# A fish is a fish...



## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

> but there's nothing like coming in from a day on the river with 6 inches of snow on the bow of the boat, or spending October on the river while the leave turn, or standing waist deep in a half frozen stream while sucking guides.


Uh...Mitch--any particular guides that you're especially fond of? It's OK if you don't want to name names, I understand. Must be if you're standing in waste deep water that they don't want to get out of driftboat for you? I always had you pegged as a guide groupie anyways. :evilsmile


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## Undertow (Apr 5, 2006)

thousandcasts said:


> following statement:
> 
> 
> . Notice I mentioned fishing catfish in the above statementguess what I use for bait? Yepbluegills. I go out to the ponds, catch small bluegills and use them for catfish bait. Sometimes I cut them up; sometimes I use them whole. Nobody even bats an eye over that one, do they? I catch bluegills for bait and that makes sense


I use bluegills for catfish bait too, damn big ones, ones many people would love to take home and eat. Bluegills are right up there with suckers for me, I hold no fish in high regards, as far as Im concerned throw them all back, Im in it for the fight. Now if someone wants to take some home with them and clean them, I'll eat the crap out of them but I aint gonna clean um, much easier to hit taco bell on the way home. Just my 0.02
Undertow


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## silversides (Aug 16, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> Excellent post though and my college philosphy professor would give you an "A" on it. But would question if the value of a perch life is as valuable as a steelheads since value is dictated by supply and demand, but then I never did get philosophy, all I remember is you can argue philosphies on right wrong forever and a day.


First off, I hate philosophy. Always have, and probably always will. However, several things come to mind. 

True, a fish is a fish. Just like a dog is a dog. Just like a human is a human. See where I'm going with this? If a dog is a dog, then why do you kick the neighbors dog in the a** when he's over screwing your b*tch? If your dog is the same as the next dog, then each dog deserves just as much respect as the other. Lets go a step further. If a human is a human, then why do you have such strong feelings for your offspring, or significant others? If you see your kid getting abused by the neighbor girl because she stole his Barby, whose side are you going to take? The fact is, no matter how you rationalize it, it's human nature to favor things that give us pleasure over those that don't. Do that which brings about the greatest amount of pleasure, isn't that the (Utiliarian) philosophy of life?

For some people, steelhead bring about that pleasure. Is that somehow wrong? No, it's just the way they are. It's obvious that alot of people enjoy fishing for steelhead, and God bless them for that. The more people who pursue these gamefish, the more pressure the DNR will be under to keep the fishery managed in the best way possible to satisfy the interests of those people. I think what is happening right now is that many people feel that it is not in the best interests of the fishery to have the regs remain the status quo. I don't think anyone is trying to say that steelhead are going extinct in Lake Michigan, but they question whether or not the fishery can be improved. Does this mean that it is scientifically correct? No, and ultimately we do have to leave the fishery issues to the DNR, but I think that threads like these serve a purpose because it forces the DNR to at least acknowledge the issue. 

Yes, I keep steelhead. I keep salmon too. Hell, I've even been known to keep a sucker if the situation is so dire that it calls for it. I don't care if others keep fish either. If it's their choice to do so, then it's their choice(there is a difference between a fish and human, but thats another topic). Do emotions arise when I see the same locals keeping limits of fish each day, only to zip the fish and give the fish to the nearest welfare fisherman, or even worse, toss it in the freezer where it sits until it's thrown out? Yes, but life goes on. And until the regs change, those people can legally do that until the day they die. 

Anyways, I think threads like these are constructive in some ways. They allow us to see other peoples opinions on the subject in a somewhat congenial atmosphere. Are most of us going to change our opinions on the subject? No, but it does allow us to see flaws in our arguments and perhaps make them stronger. 

I'm done.


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## Steelhead Addict (Dec 16, 2004)

thousandcasts said:


> You can tell its cold out and fishing has been abysmal because weve got the annual wild steelhead vs. hatchery steelhead, catch and release and lowered limits debates going again.


Man we should just call the "South West Michigan Streams and Rivers" forum "Thousandcasts's blog". Fishing has been just fine lately (I wish I could go more often....I guess I always say that) Obviously you've spent more time on the forums lately. Your the one stirring the pot ;-)



thousandcasts said:


> Now, lets open this up for discussion


 
anyway a fish is a fish...at some level this is true.... at other meastures this is not true. if you look at how the mdnr measures things...its all around usage and ultimately economic value. (sorry catfish lovers) if you remember their presentations and discussions around loosening the trout regs on the muskegon....that was their ONLY criteria. So if you want to get them to change the way the fishery is run...it has to be made through a economic arguement. otherwise your wasting your time. Some river guys are upset about the percieved bias towards the big lake fisheries...duh..follow the money.

look at it this way....
if our fisheries managers took a "fish first" point of view they'd close off whole sections of gravel. Would a fish farmer allow a bunch of guys to walk across his salmon/steelhead beds? heck no! Instead the fisheries is managed for the fisherman AS A WHOLE. So look at the regs as a guide rails so we do destory angling opportunities for all other anglers. The reality is that the bank billies that trash out tippy and etc have some economic value to the fisheries. No body likes the litter but they help support our artificial fishery.

On thing I do have to congratulate you on your honesty about gravel "fishing". Most people don't have your courage and honesty. Some of the most effective snagging rigs I've seen is a 9wt with a double egg/nymph rig. (just add a bad combover and a short ride to gaza...and your all set!) One thing i didn't seen an answer on..what do you with the spawners after you get their eggs? 

Dang it...you suckered me into the conversation.


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## Oldgrandman (Nov 16, 2004)

Without getting too deep and philosophical, I just like catching fish. And if it means getting some gills at Richmond park for flatheads in the Grand, I am up for it. The only fish I really look down on is a rock bass. If I never caught another one that'd be just fine with me.
So I ice fish when the river slows down like it has recently, but today might be a good day to go see whats up on the mighty Grand again.

............smells like, VICTORY!

I love that line.


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2000)

Before I say anything else, I hope you know you wont get any gripes from me for keeping the fish you catch. Steelhead or otherwise. 

In my own humble opinion,
steelhead are the greatest game fish of all time. I love steelhead! They live in places I like to live. They like the cold just like me. They never say die, just like me. I can fish for them during the dead of winter and have nearly the whole river to myself. Salmon? They run when it's warm out. It's all I can do to find a place to myself during the salmon runs. They smell nasty. They taste nasty. And the worst part about salmon? They attract low life tough guy wantabes that swill beer all day and night and pee it into the river. They toss cigarette butts in the water, garbage on the banks, and leave dangerous hooks and high test line stuck to the logs and fish while they otherwise rape the resource. Salmon? While there was a time in my life when I thought they were awesome, I have grown to hate them with an intense passion!
As for fishing gravel? I don't do it simply because it frustrates me. I fish for steelhead all winter and while they can be hard to find they bite really good when you do find them. They're scattered out hiding in deep pools and log jams and you have to search for them. Never knowing when you might feel that tell tale yank and throbbing rod feeling. I have grown to really love this type of fishing. Then when they get on the gravel they stop biting good. I can see them and so can everyone else. And the lines form. This is disheartening to me. So I stay away from these places. I have no problems with those who like this type of fishing. Nor do I have any problems with those who keep their fish.


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## waterfoul (May 18, 2005)

Is it fall yet? Man I miss salmon fishing!!!


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Waterfoul said:


> Is it fall yet? Man I miss salmon fishing!!!


Mike, go sit in your corner and be good!........:lol:


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2000)

> Is it fall yet?


Nope. It's winter. The best time of the year


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## Oldgrandman (Nov 16, 2004)

Erik said:


> Nope. It's winter. The best time of the year


LOL, all the seasons are good, but lets not rush through spring!


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## Undertow (Apr 5, 2006)

Oldgrandman said:


> Without getting too deep and philosophical, I just like catching fish. And if it means getting some gills at Richmond park for flatheads in the Grand, I am up for it. The only fish I really look down on is a rock bass. If I never caught another one that'd be just fine with me.
> So I ice fish when the river slows down like it has recently, but today might be a good day to go see whats up on the mighty Grand again.
> 
> ............smells like, VICTORY!
> ...


You hate rockbass what, there the second best flathead bait. Much better than gills but right under bullheads. Try using rock bass next time flatheading, you will find that they stay alive longer and generally hold up better than gills and the flatheads love them.
Undertow


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

One of the problems living here is that I can sit at the computer like now and watch 15 deer eating corn (legal amount...I wouldn't want this thread to get distracted with accusations of me ilegally feeding deer...yes...the corn is spread out over a wide area and within 100 yes of the house..:lol: )

I'm also eating some GREAT home made tater chips cut with a Kitchen Magician and deep fried and drinking a glass of Canada Dry Ginger Ale, my favorite beverage.........YUMMY!
It's a great "problem" to have.


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## axisgear (Jan 24, 2007)

I caught my personal best flathead on a green sunfish(just under 43#).

Rock bass and bluegills have been my top producers ,though. I caught a few decent ones on crankbaits ,too.Bullheads don't seem to work as well for me.:sad:


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Steelhead Addict said:


> Man we should just call the "South West Michigan Streams and Rivers" forum "Thousandcasts's blog". Fishing has been just fine lately (I wish I could go more often....I guess I always say that) Obviously you've spent more time on the forums lately. Your the one stirring the pot ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's that part near the bottom of my "blog:" 



> I secure the eggs and the fish gets filleted afterwards. I may not eat many fish per year, but I make a lot of people happy when I take those fillets to work and give them away. Some hunters who dont fish return the favor by giving me venison in exchange for steelhead or salmon fillets. Not only do I get my eggs, but I also get my venison as well. Works for me!


Glad the fishing's been OK for you. I've had no desire what so ever to go out in this freezing crap lately. I had a tremendous fall and early winter, so I'm not jonesing as bad as I usually would if I go awhile without getting out. I'm more pumped at this point for crank bait salmon and catfish--both activities that don't involve me freezing my *** off! :lol:


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Steve,

As I think about it, it seems that people fish for different reasons. Some people fish for the love of fishing and would go fishing even if there was no Internet or any group of friends to show their fish to.

To some people fishing is a way to stand out in a crowd and give them credibility or to feel like they are part of a group.

Sometimes I fish when I don't feel like it, because I get to spend time with some of my buddies, but most of the time if I don't feel like going, I don't. As winter wears on though, I can't seem to wait until I can get back on a trout stream.

I enjoy fishing were there aren't many people, but in spite of that, one of my best memories last year was fishing above the coffer dam at Tippy catching brown after brown and nice ones too when there were only 2 people around. I don't think they ever noticed me catching fish either. My only 20 brown of the year was caught that day.

By the way, I spent a lot of days sitting on the banks of the Grand River cat fishing so sometime if you have a spare seat in your boat, let me know. By the way, keep stiring the pot, sometimes it makes things interesting.


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## SR-Mechead (Jan 25, 2004)

Ray you seem to be running a close second in stiring the pot. Between you and Steve your going to have to get bigger spoons and a much larger pot:lol:


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

SR-Mechead said:


> Ray you seem to be running a close second in stiring the pot. Between you and Steve your going to have to get bigger spoons and a much larger pot:lol:


As far as Ray goes, I think a lot of people miss the point that he's speaking from experience. I consider Ray a friend and he's certainly more than capable of fighting his own battles, but when the guy jumps into an issue, he usually knows what he's talking about. It seems that every time I've went to a public meeting or somewhere where a biologist is speaking about the fisheries, Ray's been in attendance as well. He also asks the same questions I do to the biologists "in the know," and more often than not he's saying the exact same things that I've heard from the same sources. So, it's not like either one of us making stuff up when we post on these issues. 

I don't know about Ray, but I like to consider my pot stirring as "bringing people back down to earth!" when it comes to certain aspects of the fisheries. OK, just kidding. :lol:


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

I read this the other day, and frankly I had a hard time figuring out where you were going.

After reading all the posts and reflecting on the original post, it occurred to me that fishing is different things to different people. Yes a fish is a fish is a fish, and to that I'll have to agree. Yes I keep steelhead from time to time, but I release far more than I keep, but thats just me, I can't see keeping every one I catch, they'll go to waste.

Having said that, Steve, you and I have never met face to face, but have discussed different things over this site from time to time. As I stated before, as you get a little older, I'm not so sure its about the fish anymore, but more about the camaraderie. I started steelhead fishing about 25 years ago, and it came about as invitation to join a couple of guys in the fall. We rented a drafy cabin, and drank more beer than one can ever imagine, but we were young then.

Now the years have passed, and more guys have joined us over the years, and some of guys kids have grown up to love the sport as well. But again, is it the fish, or is it the memories you had, and continue to create. I could fill this site with some interesting stories from over the years, but in the end, its (to me) about the friendships and steelhead are just conduit.

I have since moved to Florida, and frankly I miss my friends, and it wouldn't matter if it were a bluegill, perch, or steelhead outing, I look forward to getting back. For me, fishing for steel was, and always has been my favorite, they carry some type of mystique for me, just where are they, am I doing everything right, etc. But sometimes I do everything wrong, and thats okay too, I still had my commune with nature for awhile.

Last year really brought this all home to me. I came back for a week of fishing with the guys, the old friends, and fished with a bunch of newer friends as well, and God did I realize how much I miss them, and I'm not afraid to say so. I have to say I love all these guys, and all for different reasons, just like a fish is a fish, I love them, for different reasons, just as it should be.

Good post Steve.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

I think a lot of people get stuck in the mind set that they have to be the "s**t" at something. Lord knows I've been there. Fishing is an easy ego stroke if it's something you can pick up on, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't mean a thing. I consider myself a half-way decent fisherman, but it doesn't mean crap if I'm a terrible father or a poor performer at work. Granted, I enjoy fishing more than say--being married, or working on relationships or having to answer to someone, but that's my own personal choice. I fish for the love of fishing and since I only have one life to live, it's what I intend to do until I can't do it anymore. I don't drink, do drugs, cheat on women or gamble, so I think fishing is a pretty healthy vice to have! :lol: 

I certainly went through the "hey look at me phase," but being able to catch a fish or two only puts you on equal footing with bears and eagles--and until we can do it with our feet or mouths, then it's nothing to brag about. My grandma put a pole in my hand when I was old enough to stand up and she was a big bluegill catching machine. So, I started out with a slip bobber and a box worms. Here it is many years later and I absolutely love rowing my own sons around the local lakes catching a few 'gills here and there. Not so much catching, but just being out with my sons. Same reason I enjoy sitting on the wall at 6th St catching carp. 

Truthfully though, as I get a bit older I find that I enjoy fishing with someone more than I do fishing by myself. As long as I can outfish the friend I'm fishing with, that's all that matters!  :lol:


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

I've never used the services of a guide but I thought that tipping them was enough. I didn't realize sucking was involved.

That said, my name's Kevin, and I love sheephead. Steelhead are pretty and jump and will run down plugs in 32 degree water, kings will burn a drag, but sheepies have never let me down.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Sheepies are a blast! When you tie into one of those 20" + sheepies, they can bulldog pretty darn good.

Mitch doesn't use the services of a guide--he services the guides, big difference. 

I recall one cold morning where he was sucking guides and he turns to me and says, "Man, it doesn't get any better than this--this is what steelheading is all about!" 

To which I replied, "If that's the case, then call me a carp fisherman because there's no way in hell I'll ever be that dedicated!" LOL!!!


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

:lol: I see another book comming out of this.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

Sheepies are fun to catch, whether you are talking the fresh water variety from up there or if you are talking the salt variety. Hook one here next to a piling or something, and its like you hooked a brick, only its 12" long.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Anymore, this is what I call a good day on the river:


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Are the hoods on the kids coats to keep Gomer from hooking them?


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

And they can climb trees!!!



thousandcasts said:


> Anymore, this is what I call a good day on the river:


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

Thats what I'm talkin about. Good looking kids there Stevie. Got to keep those days coming, they'll all grown up before you know it.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Whit1 said:


> And they can climb trees!!!


LOL!!! If all they did was climb trees, then my hair wouldn't be falling out right now!


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## SR-Mechead (Jan 25, 2004)

thousandcasts said:


> LOL!!! If all they did was climb trees, then my hair wouldn't be falling out right now!



Hang on it only gets better:lol:


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

SR-Mechead said:


> Hang on it only gets better:lol:


Teenagers!..........Discovering Girls!.....Having Their Father's (in part) DNA..............:yikes: 

Sorry Hutch! I couldn't resist........:lol:


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Whit1 said:


> Teenagers!..........Discovering Girls!.....Having Their Father's (in part) DNA..............:yikes:
> 
> Sorry Hutch! I couldn't resist........:lol:


Huh...what...was that a joke? Sorry, I hear that part about them having their "fathers DNA" about three or four times a week from my ex wife, so I'm kinda numb to it. Just think how much I'd hear it if they didn't live with me! :lol: :lol:


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## gomer (Dec 30, 2000)

> Are the hoods on the kids coats to keep Gomer from hooking them?


I have you know that I have never hooked one of his kids! However, one day I did see them find some tasty "spawnie treats" while mingling through the brush at the Rockford dam...:lol: and no, they werent on the end of my line!


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## gomer (Dec 30, 2000)

and i'm not going to lie Hutch, it is quite humorous to watch them try to strangle each other and trip people with your dropnet rope!:lol:


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Nah, the best one was when I hooked a fish and I said, "Go get daddy's net!"

So they both take off, each one grabs the net and starts arguing over who gets to take it to daddy. I've got a fish flopping on the surface and they're going at it over the net. Pretty quick, they both drop the net and it was on. Two three and half year-olds rolling on the sidewalk trying to beat the hell out of each other. The fish popped off eventually and Daddy stormed over and quickly restored order to the sounds off, "I get the net!" "No, I get the net!" "I get the net!" "No, I get the net!" 

"Never mind, the fish is gone!" 

"Why the fishie gone, daddy?" 

:lol: 

Ah, good times--such memories!  I gotta hand it to my fellow post office regulars, they've certainly put up with some the antics of those two running around quite well. My hats off in thanks to those guys! LOL!!!


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## Oldgrandman (Nov 16, 2004)

thousandcasts said:


> Ah, good times--such memories!  I gotta hand it to my fellow post office regulars, they've certainly put up with some the antics of those two running around quite well. My hats off in thanks to those guys! LOL!!!


Yeah I fish up there by Hutch some times and those kids are funny to watch, some entertainment for when it is slow.


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## Mitch (Jan 10, 2003)

I'd have to say my favorite antic I've seen the thousandcast twins pull is the poor homeless man that was walking by with every worldly possesion in his pull cart. They thought it was aweful funny to hitch a free ride! LOL!!!

I gotta give it to ya, those two are a handful. One minute they're right there and the next they're either halfway to the Quarry hole or on the edge of Bridge Street!

Can't wait to see them down there with a rod in their hands!

Mitch


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

My 7 month pregnant wife, just three year old daughter and I went pre-fishing for a sheepie derby. We were in the channel at Saugatuck with a mix of size 3 J plugs, Willie's Worms, and spoons on boards, divers, and riggers trying to find a pattern.

Graph goes black with fish and within 10 seconds 5 of the 6 rods are pounding. I hand the rigger rod with the spinning reel to my daughter (somehow left handed, so spinning reels are easier) and say "please don't drop this".

Long story short, we landed all 5, and my daughter's was the biggest, at 26", and got a master angler for it. That weekend my nephew took a 31" 13.2# and we beat out 27 other boats in the tournament.

I love sheepies.


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