# Black Cloud



## marriom (Dec 7, 2011)

My buddy asked me about Black Cloud and how good it was for ducks and geese. I really have no idea. I have not used it at all. I had a guy at Jays tell me you should shoot an improved choke tube when you shoot black cloud is that really true? Or can you get away with a mod. choke tube.

If you do not recommend black cloud. What would you guys recommend?

thanks


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

Its a premium waterfowl load for sure but i've only shot a few boxes. I wasn't overly impressed with it. Some guys will call me an idiot "because it's the best waterfowl load out there"! But everyone has an opinion and this is mine; I like Kent faststeel or Federal ultra shock in 1 1/4oz #2 for everything including geese, but there are guys who hate these loads too? 

This year i've been using hevimetal and have absolutly no complaints! Killer loads with great knock down power. Now keep in mind, I haven't taken any long range shots (only 35 yards or less) because I just don't hunt that way. But I have had no cripples from it either. When you hit em with this stuff, they are dead before they hit the water or ground. Makes for easy dog work and I know my dogg likes that. I believe it's resonably priced as well for what you get. 
Hope this helps ya.............
Smoke


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## fishdip (Dec 29, 2010)

Blackcloud is all i use and modified should be perfect.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

The last two years I have been using Black Cloud #3's and using a briley mid range choke
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbatson (Oct 10, 2010)

Any shell will kill! I've used bc and speed shok (both by federal) and don't see a difference IMO.


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## daddyduck (Nov 2, 2001)

I use Black cloud for late season geese and love it.. Improved choke


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## rjmacker (Sep 3, 2011)

Blackcloud is a very good load, but in my opinoin it is not necesary at all for the price. I shoot federal ultra shot #1s and # 2's and love them. Ducks and geese it doesn't matter, it drops em all dead. I have also heard to get the most out of black cloud you have to use the special black cloud choke. Not sure if it's true or not but that's what I heard. But personally I'd rather pay $120 for a case of ultrashock than over $200 for a case of black cloud but that's just me!


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## Wall-llard Willie Jr. (Oct 8, 2012)

Me and my dad used black cloud for a couple seasons but in our opinion the powder burns dirtier than other loads. We have now switched to hevi-metal and have had no complaints so far.


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## sswhitelightning (Dec 14, 2004)

Does a ported tube really endanger your gun or is that marketing to buy there tubes. I heard ported catches wad wrong and can cause damage 


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## boomstick (Aug 31, 2010)

rjmacker said:


> But personally I'd rather pay $120 for a case of ultrashock than over $200 for a case of black cloud but that's just me!


2 years ago I bought a case of BC @ $270 for a 10g. It does the job. Last year I switched to Fed #1, 12 g and a case cost me $99 from rogers. I haven't noticed a difference accept a lighter gun on my shoulder and more money in my pocket!! 




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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

The ammo companies mainly Winchester and Federal are trying to convince the consumer that Trauma kills birds and not penetration.. This is mainly due to the fact that there are two ways to get penetration, density of the composition of the pellet or through velocity. 

With rising metal and mainly tungsten costs, heavier-denser has seemingly priced its way out of average everyday waterfowlers blind bag.. And velocity has its limitations with steel.. Thus the marketing of trauma over penetration. 

Does the "flitestopper" pellets create alot of trauma, why yes IME they do. They create bigger blood clotted areas on birds, but in alot of situations you find these flite stopper pellets just inside the breasts. With anything the larger wound channel you create, the more energy is expended thus decreasing penetration. Look at a 2 inch Rage broadheads penetration vs a 3/4 inch cut, cut on contact broadhead. 

The fastest way to dispatch a bird is from hits to the CNS. Thus round pellets and their better penetrating abilities are able to reach the CNS easier than pellets creating more trauma. The guys touting the deadliness of these loads saying they pile right up, could do so with an equal normal steel pellet as they are striking the CNS.. Birds killed solely through Trauma are the ones that glide and than pile up as the trauma caught up with them. 

As for the flight control wad. Most of my experience is with turkey loads with this wad. They are selling the premise, that any old flush mounted choke can now be a long range killer.. That only a factory improved is needed and recommended because the wad is doing all the work.. With any load it can be overchoked. But at least in the turkey loads my experience has been the wad responds extremely well to being choked way down even further than what other loads can handle before blowing the pattern. (Do Not choke that tight with steel ever) With the black cloud, sure try the IMP but try your Mod, Light Mod etc.. 

As for patterning.. Each of these companies have come up with specialty wads to aid in patterning. These odd shaped pellets are aerodynamically challenged as compared to pure round shot. Regarding Wins Hex Shot, the military came up with this in Vietnam era as a spreader load for jungle conditions. Federal mixes the flitestopper with conventional steel, because the conventional steel holds the pattern together further. They have even came out with a all Flight Stopper steel load, but dub it as a short range load for ducks due to the abilities of all mis shaped pellets to hold together at longer ranges.



sswhitelightning said:


> Does a ported tube really endanger your gun or is that marketing to buy there tubes. I heard ported catches wad wrong and can cause damage
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


The porting thing has been long debated with the FCW. What is not recommended is "wad stopping chokes". Contrary to popular belief the porting in a choke tube is NOT for reduction of recoil or muzzle jump, but the configuration and design of the ports is used for slowing the wad so the gas does not blow the wad into the shot thus disrupting the pattern. So essentially every ported choke is a wad stopping choke with its abilities to do is based on the design and configuration of the ports..


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## bc21 (Dec 15, 2010)

smoke said:


> Its a premium waterfowl load for sure but i've only shot a few boxes. I wasn't overly impressed with it. Some guys will call me an idiot "because it's the best waterfowl load out there"! But everyone has an opinion and this is mine; I like Kent faststeel or Federal ultra shock in 1 1/4oz #2 for everything including geese, but there are guys who hate these loads too?
> 
> This year i've been using hevimetal and have absolutly no complaints! Killer loads with great knock down power. Now keep in mind, I haven't taken any long range shots (only 35 yards or less) because I just don't hunt that way. But I have had no cripples from it either. When you hit em with this stuff, they are dead before they hit the water or ground. Makes for easy dog work and I know my dogg likes that. I believe it's resonably priced as well for what you get.
> Hope this helps ya.............
> Smoke


Agree. 

I also like Winchester Xpert, too. 3" 2 shot is a pretty decent load for the price. A dead bird is a dead bird, no real need to pay a lot more for black cloud / blind side / any other really high end load *IF *you are shooting decoying birds within 35 yards or so. If you take longer shots or a lot of passing shots, maybe it would be worth it to shoot more expensive stuff.


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## rjmacker (Sep 3, 2011)

boomstick said:


> 2 years ago I bought a case of BC @ $270 for a 10g. It does the job. Last year I switched to Fed #1, 12 g and a case cost me $99 from rogers. I haven't noticed a difference accept a lighter gun on my shoulder and more money in my pocket!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Rogers is the way to go! Especially since they usually have free shipping.


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## S.B. Walleyes&Waterfowl (Jan 10, 2012)

My 3 Hunting Partners and I have been using mostly Black Cloud ever since it came out. Both 3" and 3-1/2", all shot sizes. No complaints, I think you can tell the difference from Xpert. We all use Carlson Extended Choke Tubes, Modified/Mid-Range.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

bc21 said:


> If you take longer shots or a lot of passing shots, maybe it would be worth it to shoot more expensive stuff.


How so?


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## bc21 (Dec 15, 2010)

DEDGOOSE said:


> How so?


Possibly from a patterning perspective due to the flight control wads?

I am no expert on load combinations by any means, and I would definitely agree with your statement above that the density and shape of the pellets would be a much bigger factor in knocking birds dead rather than creating "trauma" to kill them. I have not shot a ton of black cloud or blind side (actually only shot one box of each last year). I will say that while cleaning the birds I killed with blind side, I did notice that there was very little penetration compared to what I typically would see with "traditional" loads (round pellets).


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

bc21 said:


> Possibly from a patterning perspective due to the flight control wads?


Ok gotcha did not know if you were going on one of them "I shoot high dollar steel thus I have more knockdown guys" :lol:

Premium steel typically uses better components than budget steel which can translate into better patterns.. But with the large number of chokes and budget loads available a guy can offset this with time at the patterning board at the ranges steel is ethical too with its limitations.


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## harsens IS. hiballer (Nov 10, 2011)

WAY TO MUCH $$$ and it does the some thing any other load does!! you shoot them in the face there going to die!!!


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## bc21 (Dec 15, 2010)

DEDGOOSE said:


> Ok gotcha did not know if you were going on one of them "I shoot high dollar steel thus I have more knockdown guys" :lol:


I'm under the firm belief that since I pay more for my shells, gun and decoys I am OBVIOUSLY a better hunter than you.... :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Not like that at all. I definitely appreciate Hevi Metal / Hevi Shot when it goes on sale, but I shoot more of the "cheap stuff" all season long.


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## bender (Nov 10, 2005)

anyone have any troubles cycling black cloud? i had to stop shooting it, the hulls would jam up my pump winchester 1300 when ejecting them.. i'm thinking the open length of the hulls is too long for the action.


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## jackoffasaur (Oct 19, 2012)

Dead Bird said:


> just my two cents... faststeel is a good deal... I was 1625 fan but I am finding that the 1550 are doing a better job... not sure why but the extra speed in my patternmaster is not doing the job I hoped... there are alot of guys that shoot more than me... but for me the cost and effect of faststeel is hard to beat.. I shoot 3 1/2's... in 12.... with that said in the late season Jan 1st I go to Hevi - Shot... late winter birds are tough....


#2 steel all year all the time. Do it right. In the decoys in the face. At 15 yards even body hit they are stone dead. 3 inch #2 have brought down 245 geese so far this season for our crew. Do right and shoot straight.


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## jackoffasaur (Oct 19, 2012)

Timber said:


> Are divers that much tougher, or are your pellets being absorbed by the water? I think if your on that bird is dead. If not you play hell trying to kill a cripple on the water. I've spent a lot of money on different shells for divers, and i found for myself more expensive was not the answer, but being on works, and when you knock a cripple down hope he is close so you can finish him off.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


They are a very small target on the water. Cheaper is better when hunting ducks. You don't feel nearly as bad when you spend 3 shells finishing a cripple. Crippling occurs from missing not steel. Lie all you want to yourself. Its a duck any steel load will stone ducks out to 60 with proper choke, and lead.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

slammer said:


> Shot a hen old squaw 9 times before she went belly up.
> I know divers are tough and on the water shots are not always effective but these were within 30 yrds and seemed to envelop the bird and she just dove after each shot.
> Trying heavy shot this week or just gonna stick with going up a shot size and a more open bore like we did when we made the switch to steel.
> I can say I've been trying to get a mountable wood duck and the black cloud tears their head up pretty bad so maybe devastating if it doesn't have to penetrate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is what happens when cripples don't die when water swatted. 











Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Don't think I was missing. It was in a pond they frequent and I was on shore so I wasn't bouncing around. All I can say is the shot spray hit 360 degrees around the bird. Happens a lot on the water, guess I could be hitting a bit in front but she was still taking hits with each shot at 30 yrs or less with IM and IC chokes in my sxs
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Got it TSS, great shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

As far as "performance" shells I think hevi-metal is the best bang for the buck and is what I shoot all year. Patterns great for me and very few cripples.

People will always debate this so just shoot what you can afford and what patterns best in your weapon. I spend to much time hunting to not shoot a load I'm confident in and that patterns good for me.

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## Timber (Jan 1, 2009)

TSS Caddis said:


> This is what happens when cripples don't die when water swatted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what i was picturing in my mind, hate that.

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## Spartan_dude (Sep 9, 2011)

charcoal300zxtt said:


> I shoot BC through my Beretta and love it. IMO the BC are sealed better and will still fire even when soaking wet, some of the cheaper loads you can see holes in the sealed end of the shell. I know a guy  who missed out on 3 flights of mallards in a row, cupped and committed into the decoys, due to the misfire of some cheaper shells that had gotten wet (or it was just his Benelli):lol:. He now shoots BC.


I agree with above I bought a case of black cloud BB a few years back and have had no issues. Works good for ducks and geese out of my Extrema2. Different strokes for different fokes. Now hopefully some fresh birds come down to the bay or my fields last weekend sucked IMO.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

I've used it in the past for geese. Patterned quite well. However, it doesn't hold a candle to Kent Fasteel 3 1/2" #2's in a 1 9/16 oz load.......Flat out hammers ducks and geese.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

In recent years, each of the major ammo manufacturers has come up with a new marketing gimmick. Federal has Black Cloud, Remington has Hypersonic Steel, Winchester has Blind Side Steel. 

Like dong juice, these things do not need to work. They just need to sell.


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## High on Quack (Oct 28, 2009)

I was told that the Hypersonic Shells are "burning out barrels" on guns. Has anyone else heard this? Just got a Super Vinci this year and would hate to have to replace parts soon. I shoot them in my Browning Gold and they work just fine killin birds with no problems. After reading this post sounds like the Hevi Shot is the way to go. Any help would be greatly appreciated


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## High on Quack (Oct 28, 2009)

I was told that the Hypersonic Shells are "burning out barrels" on guns. Has anyone else heard this? Just got a Super Vinci this year and would hate to have to replace parts soon. I shoot them in my Browning Gold and they work just fine killin birds with no problems. After reading this post sounds like the Hevi Shot is the way to go. Any help would be greatly appreciated


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## High on Quack (Oct 28, 2009)

Sorry for the double tap. Boss came walkin by and don"t like me on here. God I hate it when people interfere with my slackin off!


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## GuppyII (Sep 14, 2008)

The hyper sonic ammo should nit harm a barrel, it is probably another Mfg spreading the rumor. The pressures are lower than some factory loads just spread out over a longer impulse. They use a fast burning powder to get the load moving then a slow burner kicks in that extends the pressure curve giving more velocity with lower overall pressure. There is a group if people that have been doing a lot of testing along these lines getting some incredible velocity with muzzleloaders. They are using up to three "layers" of powder and getting 3000+ fps out of muzzys and keeping pressures in the same range as high end black powder subs. Incredible the amount of money they have spent on pressure trace equipment and components.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

jackoffasaur said:


> #2 steel all year all the time. Do it right. In the decoys in the face. At 15 yards even body hit they are stone dead. 3 inch #2 have brought down 245 geese so far this season for our crew. Do right and shoot straight.


I am in awe!


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## michiganduckmaster (Dec 28, 2011)

Im no expert but I love BC with a BC mid range choke with #2 and snow goose BC in BB flat out crushes ducks and geese at extended ranges. Ive shot Kent Fast Steel, Drylock, Expert, Blind side, Nitro Express and Rio in my old 11-87 and nothing kills better or patterns better in my gun than BC with a BC choke. Ive never had a jam with BC either in fact the only jam was when I tried Rio. Ive killed quite a few ducks from 50-65yds with BC now im not saying everyone should shoot at those ranges but BC seems pretty deadly even out that far. BC is the only load my gun has seen in two yrs (except two boxes of Blind side) and the only load it will ever see again. Drop Ducks Like Rain!!! Good Luck. Im really looking to burn up some shot with this front coming I cant wait to kill some divers.


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## Duck-Hunter (Mar 31, 2005)

I bought a couple flats when BC first came out. I did notice a difference, I liked it a lot. Then I started hearing about it blowing out barrels. I do believe BC is somewhat of a gimmick. I really don't see the pellets with the little ring around them cutting that much better but then again I'm no ballistics expert. The only thing I see working and giving you the advantage is the wad design. The design of this wad is to hold a tighter shot string. Which it does pattern pretty well with stock chokes. If you really want to save some money I'd suggest buying a pattern master or Carlson choke tube and you could do the same amount of damage with Xperts. After shooting BC for a season and hearing the stories of barrels blowing out I figured I'd try a aftermarket choke and I didn't notice any difference. 

But know I'm done with shooting BC and wal-mart ammo. Tired of cripples, hevi-metal has my vote fallowed by fasteel


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## mintgreenwalleyemachine (Jan 18, 2005)

Dead Bird said:


> just my two cents... faststeel is a good deal... I was 1625 fan but I am finding that the 1550 are doing a better job... not sure why but the extra speed in my patternmaster is not doing the job I hoped... there are alot of guys that shoot more than me... but for me the cost and effect of faststeel is hard to beat.. I shoot 3 1/2's... in 12.... with that said in the late season Jan 1st I go to Hevi - Shot... late winter birds are tough....


Pattern master doesn't like any shells over 1550. The slower the better.


"StinkFinger"


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

some of the best duck hunters i've met over the years and none of them give much care about their shells outside of misfire. key is to shoot the same shell enough to know how it shoots so you can adjust your leads. thats it. put them close enough and power/speed doesn't matter.

no offense to original poster but guys that breakdown these loads and nit pick about whats fastest and what does what...gah. ask the guy whos shoots 300+ ducks a year what he shoots and 9 times outa 10 its the load he could buy the cheapest without misfires.


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

jackoffasaur said:


> #2 steel all year all the time. Do it right. In the decoys in the face. At 15 yards even body hit they are stone dead. 3 inch #2 have brought down 245 geese so far this season for our crew. Do right and shoot straight.


Stonin' 'em at 15 yards with 3", #2's?? That's quite a feat. :lol:


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## Zeboy (Oct 4, 2002)

I bought two boxes of Black Cloud when it first came out. Never Again! I like to eat my birds after I kill them. If I want hamburger I will buy it from the store.


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## folpak (Feb 6, 2008)

I suggest 00 to really bring em down!  

Whatever you do dont buy Kent fasteel. I pretty sure thats how supply and demand works to keep my shells cheaper


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## jackoffasaur (Oct 19, 2012)

William H Bonney said:


> Stonin' 'em at 15 yards with 3", #2's?? That's quite a feat. :lol:


Your a lot better shot at 15 yards. Tgw gimmicks kill me. I kill more birds at far with black cloud. Umm.... no you don't it is STEEL folks its all kills the same.


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## quack head (Oct 23, 2007)

Punt gun with lead.


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

jackoffasaur said:


> Your a lot better shot at 15 yards. Tgw gimmicks kill me. I kill more birds at far with black cloud. Umm.... no you don't it is STEEL folks its all kills the same.


One more time,, preferably in English this time please. :lol:


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

jackoffasaur said:


> They are a very small target on the water. Cheaper is better when hunting ducks. You don't feel nearly as bad when you spend 3 shells finishing a cripple. Crippling occurs from missing not steel. Lie all you want to yourself. Its a duck any steel load will stone ducks out to 60 with proper choke, and lead.


Do you regularly take shots out to 60 yards? I just thought I read you shoot em in the face @ 15 yards, their all dead. There ain't know flippin way I would take a shot at a duck out to 60 yards!! I'm not even sure if it would kill em at 60 yards maybe crip em. I do know that the lead you have to put on a bird @ 60 yards crossing has got to be friggin huge. I'm fairly certain I don't have the shooting prowess to do that even inconsistanly. Maybe a hail mary shot and get lucky. I never took shots at that distance when I could shoot lead! 

But then again i'm not a jackoff ..............................a saur. 
Smoke


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## jackoffasaur (Oct 19, 2012)

smoke said:


> Do you regularly take shots out to 60 yards? I just thought I read you shoot em in the face @ 15 yards, their all dead. There ain't know flippin way I would take a shot at a duck out to 60 yards!! I'm not even sure if it would kill em at 60 yards maybe crip em. I do know that the lead you have to put on a bird @ 60 yards crossing has got to be friggin huge. I'm fairly certain I don't have the shooting prowess to do that even inconsistanly. Maybe a hail mary shot and get lucky. I never took shots at that distance when I could shoot lead!
> 
> But then again i'm not a jackoff ..............................a saur.
> Smoke


Pretty easy to do cleaning up a cripple gliding away.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

jackoffasaur said:


> Pretty easy to do cleaning up a cripple gliding away.


I find a bird flying away is the hardest shot...I think most would agree...60 yds, I would never take a punch unless it were cripple though either..


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

SBE II said:


> I find a bird flying away is the easiest shot, but hardest to kill...I think most would agree...60 yds, I would never take a punch unless it were cripple though either..



Fify


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Huntermax-4 said:


> Fify
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine



Umm yea, not what I said....Thanks though


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## oldsalt mi (Oct 5, 2010)

You guys like black cloud? 

A friend of mine has 10 boxes of 3 1/2 inch 2s for 20.00 a box or best offer .

And he is near Grand Rapids


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## quack head (Oct 23, 2007)

B.C. is a bit of a joke in our hunting circle. It's been something we say after pulling the trigger, or even the mention of ducks. I'll stick with my Winchester's. Like someone stated earlier, choke tube, and run some shells through your gage, find out what works for your primary shoty. My two cents if it matter to ya'll.


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## JOHNNY A (Mar 6, 2010)

I had a lot less cripples shooting the same set up when I shot them. The money sucks but I spent less water swatting


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## sswhitelightning (Dec 14, 2004)

folpak said:


> I suggest 00 to really bring em down!
> 
> Whatever you do dont buy Kent fasteel. I pretty sure thats how supply and demand works to keep my shells cheaper


Lol. Yea keep buying BC.




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## RS1983 (Mar 16, 2009)

everyone is always looking for that magic shell that will make them stop missing. I've shot just about every production shell on the market looking for that perfect shell. Blackcloud costs about 180.00 a case. Federal Blue box and Xperts cost about 100.00.

I guarantee that the guy who pays the $100 for a case and spends the $80 on a club membership shooting clays in the off season will kill more birds than the guy who buys black clouds and never shoulders a gun until duck season.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

First let me state that I have never fired a single round of Black Cloud ammunition. I did, however, stay at a Holiday Inn last night. 

I have no experience with the Flight Stopper shot that is used along with conventional shot in the Black Cloud loading. I did hunt once with a guy using Black Cloud shells and he shot quite effectively that day.

That being said, back in 2009 I was out in Salt Lake City, Utah and a gun shop downtown (Gallensons) was selling off bags of _Choke C-4_ wads that were a clone of the Flight Stopper wad that is used in the Black Cloud loading. The wads were made by a company in Layton, Utah. I purchased a couple hundred of these wads and then loaded both lead (for turkey) and steel loads for pattern testing.

With large shot (steel BB) the patterns were quite good (~84% patterns at 40 yards with a light modified (0.715") choke). I noticed that the wad would often travel 40 or more yards down range and many times would embed in the pattern board.

I also noticed two issues with the wad. With smaller shot (lead #5) and most any steel smaller than BB, the patterns were not that impressive. I could easily achieve as good or better patterns with more conventional wads. The second issue is that the patterns were very much affected by crosswinds. With a crosswind of any consequence, the patterns would strike the pattern board quite a distance downwind. Loads fired with conventional wads were not affected nearly as much. I suspect that the wads were staying with the shot for a much longer distance than conventional wads and were therefore more affected by the wind.

I loaded a single box of BB steel with these wads and gave most of the rest away.

I have not used these shells until this year. Yesterday, I fired my first round of this ammo at game. I shot a goose at a range of about 50 yards. It was dead in the air. It happens all the time with my other ammo too.

I doubt that these wads are still available. I suspect there were patent infringement issues.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

John Singer said:


> With smaller shot (lead #5) and most any steel smaller than BB, the patterns were not that impressive. I could easily achieve as good or better patterns with more conventional wads. The second issue is that the patterns were very much affected by crosswinds. With a crosswind of any consequence, the patterns would strike the pattern board quite a distance downwind. Loads fired with conventional wads were not affected nearly as much. I suspect that the wads were staying with the shot for a much longer distance than conventional wads and were therefore more affected by the wind.


Most everyone that gets into the turkey patterning, feels as if they should drop the wad with their HW 15 g/cc loadings. They have by far the best pellet loaded in a commercial shotshell and performance is hindered by the wad as proven by handloaders loading the same density pellet in a more conventional wad with buffer. 

The 20 gauge loadings respond much much better to choking due to the fact the 20 gauge wad is composed of a more pliable substance. The 12 gauge wad is much thicker and stiffer. My 20 will run around 200 pellets in a 10 inch circle at 40 which is hard to accomplish in the 12 with a heavier payload. 

Essentially I am choking the wad so tight, the flite control wad so tight it does not act in the manner that was intended. When chokes are shot in the 570 range the wad travels nearly to the target at 40, when choked to 550 with wad stoppers, it pulls the wad off at 25 yards. Folks in the 12 are finally figuring this out and getting best results not with the wide open chokes recommended by Fed, but with chokes in the 650 range. 

Your theory on wind makes alot of sense, never gave that a thought. Something else I discussed with a choke maker when this stuff was making the debut, was what if one side of the braking pedals deployed before the other side.

They should ditch the wad in their turkey loads, up the payloads, go to 7.5 or 8 shot.. Market the merits of the shot and not this stupid wad.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

DEDGOOSE said:


> They should ditch the wad in their turkey loads, up the payloads, go to 7.5 or 8 shot.. Market the merits of the shot and not this stupid wad.


Merit of the shot? Wad wizard did a ballistics test on thick phone books at 40 yards and the penetration of black cloud went through roughly 84 pages, no different then a conventional steel load..For the price that it is spend a couple more bucks and get hevi-metal...They indicated that hevi-shot went through something like 200+ pages...it was quite different...just my .02

Just pulled from WW facebook page

Ever wonder about pellet penetration? We did some shooting this morning with a couple of different loads into big, thick phone books. At 40 yards, using the Supreme tube this is what we found (deepest penetration):
# 2 Black Cloud - 78 pages
# 4 Black Cloud - 85 pages
#4 Hevi Shot - 230 pages


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

SBE II said:


> Merit of the shot? Wad wizard did a ballistics test on thick phone books at 40 yards and the penetration of black cloud went through roughly 84 pages, no different then a conventional steel load..For the price that it is spend a couple more bucks and get hevi-metal...They indicated that hevi-shot went through something like 200+ pages...it was quite different...just my .02
> 
> Just pulled from WW facebook page
> 
> ...


He was referring to Fed's HTL turkey loads in the post you quoted.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

KLR said:


> He was referring to Fed's HTL turkey loads in the post you quoted.


Word...Thats what happens when your halfway through your first cup of joe in the morning..:corkysm55


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