# Deer ran to private land



## Traditional uplander (Mar 24, 2017)

Best number to call when deer runs onto private property?
OnX only tells me their home address/tax.


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## Matty Patty (Oct 9, 2019)

Maybe knock on the door of a house near by and see if they have the land owners phone number?

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## Traditional uplander (Mar 24, 2017)

Probably gonna try that in the morning, but there’s no houses even close.


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## Traditional uplander (Mar 24, 2017)

It’s just crazy that the DNR has numbers to “RAP” but no direct number for this issue when it happens fairly often.


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## y2ba (Jan 9, 2005)

In this day and age, it’s usually not hard to find someone’s number/address. You’ve got their name. Social media/google are your friend as a last resort. You’d be surprised how easy finding someone can be.


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## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

Best to know the people that owns the property well before you hunt...just my opinion.


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## Jbra (Nov 18, 2010)

If this is a property you hunt often, it's your responsibility prior to the season to find/get your neighbors numbers. I do appreciate that you're not just going for it. I had an instance this year where the new guy in the neighborhood blew out my entire property and was on the south end before he tried to get a hold of me. That kind of crap pisses me off.


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## Traditional uplander (Mar 24, 2017)

Never hunted it before, so no i didn’t do the research to find 7 bordering neighbors phone numbers. Just in case for the first time in 40+ years of rifle hunting one runs more than 100yards.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Traditional uplander said:


> Best number to call when deer runs onto private property?
> OnX only tells me their home address/tax.


Use huntwise instead of OnX if you are looking for landowner numbers. Huntwise is a competitor of Onx. You can probably get a free trial. OnX refuses to give landowner phone nunbers to protect their privacy. Huntwise gives out nunbers if the info is available. They typically have 30-40% of the landowners nunbers when I tried them outwest. 

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## anagranite (Oct 23, 2010)

Google their name, and it's not your responsibility to find a landowner until this happens. Knowing neighbors is a totally different situation. 

I hunt public in several states and I'll stop at neighboring properties if I see someone outside or ita a small piece of land. Everyone of them has appreciated my small act of kindness.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Facebook


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## MoreHuntingPls (Oct 6, 2018)

Mole Hill said:


> Best to know the people that owns the property well before you hunt...just my opinion.


Of course caption obvious. The man is looking for solutions not more problems.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Go to the township or county equalization office.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Is the property posted or is it farmland? If neither, technically you are free to keep tracking. I know some may disagree, but time is of the essence.


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## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

MossyHorns said:


> Is the property posted or is it farmland? If neither, technically you are free to keep tracking. I know some may disagree, but time is of the essence.


I would think any Sportsman would disagree with going on private land posted or not without permission...again just my opinion .


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## Sharkbait11 (Apr 7, 2017)

MossyHorns said:


> Is the property posted or is it farmland? If neither, technically you are free to keep tracking. I know some may disagree, but time is of the essence.


Yeah not a tough call for me to make. Letting game meat spoil is also illegal.


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## Botiz (Oct 21, 2010)

Did you really say that the DNR should have a service to provide you with a number for the private property that your deer ran onto?

OnX will give you the owners address. Go knock on their door.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Sharkbait11 said:


> Letting game meat spoil is also illegal.


Not in Michigan . If there is a waste law it is rather new.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Mole Hill said:


> I would think any Sportsman would disagree with going on private land posted or not without permission...again just my opinion .


If they don't want you on their property, then they better have it posted. DNR won't even show up if not legally posted. Just the facts.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

bowhunter426 said:


> Not in Michigan . If there is a waste law it is rather new.


You are correct.


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## John Hine (Mar 31, 2019)

Not posted, not Ag, go get yer deer!! Stand yer ground!! F em!


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

buckguts1970 said:


> If a person chose to ignore the trespass law while recovering their deer shouldn't I be able to ignore the assault and battery law when I find them lol


Based on the law, it's not trespassing if it's not farmland and it's not posted.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Traditional uplander said:


> It’s just crazy that the DNR has numbers to “RAP” but no direct number for this issue when it happens fairly often.


What's crazy is that you think that the DNR should have a number for this issue.

L & O


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

I have a couple neighbors I don't know, I'd much rather they come onto my property to retrieve a deer than to just let it rot because they don't have my # to ask for permission.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Liver and Onions said:


> What's crazy is that you think that the DNR should have a number for this issue.
> 
> L & O


This is no joke. A CO spoke at my son's hunter safety class about 12 years ago and told the class he would be able to retrieve a deer off someone's property if you were denied access. He was a veteran CO who obviously didn't know the law. That's where people get these ideas.


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## tdejong302 (Nov 28, 2004)

Any update did you get your deer? My land is posted.... and I can't stand trespassers but I would prefer someone to come in alittle ways to get their deer. Grid search is out of the question. I do have a neighbor hunting on the property line. He can't come on for anything. Buy an acre and hunt it. Okay don't cross my line for anything period. I hope you retrieved your deer. We can all learn from this. I plan on introducing myself to a neighbor across the road from us. Hes the only one that I don't know at this time. Some people are friendly and approachable he doesn't seem to be. So I have to make the effort.


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## wpmisport (Feb 9, 2010)

sureshot006 said:


> Meh. If they say no they're still an azzhole.
> 
> I couldn't deny a hunter the opportunity to find the deer they hit. I'd expect the same.


Some people may have illegal activity on the property they do not want you to find out about (maybe even just the bait piles), other than that I cannot see why someone would say no but I am sure they still do.
-----------------------
If Macs13 hit a deer with his vehicle in front or your house and it died 10 feet into your front lawn and he wanted it (no one was home) would anyone say don't trespass just let it be. I guess someone would if they thought they may want it.


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## Sharkbait11 (Apr 7, 2017)

MossyHorns said:


> This is no joke. A CO spoke at my son's hunter safety class about 12 years ago and told the class he would be able to retrieve a deer off someone's property if you were denied access. He was a veteran CO who obviously didn't know the law. That's where people get these ideas.


In the hunter safety course I took the instructor went over all the hypotheticals presented in here. Over in Ontario there is a law you cannot let game meat/fish spoil. He said basically what I touched on above in that every hunter weights their decision according to the situation they are in. He didn't say what anyone should do but to keep in mind there are 2 conflicting laws (In Ontario) that play on ethics in some scenarios. 

Is it ethical to trespass after you have done your due diligence so as not to let game meat spoil? Kinda a tough call what law you want to subject yourself to. Highly hypothetical and the likelihood of being charged for either is very low but there may come a time everyone has to make their own decision based on their due diligence and what they believe is right. 

If the farmer whom I have absolutely no idea how to contact has a problem with me dragging my deer 3 feet or say even 50 yards from his property, then thats fair and if hes there and calls me on it then we talk about how to settle the issue together like gentlemen. If no solution comes up I would contact the DNR/MNR for assistance. But the likelihood of the farmer really caring is so low and the fact I have no clue who he is let alone it could be a corporation that owns the land. its really an individual call for each scenario. 

People can look at it as black or white but when you run into the grey zone, just use common sense.


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## Gsphunteronpoint1 (Mar 8, 2018)

In this situation I’d drive around the property and look for vehicles or any signs of activity, if it doesn’t look active at all I’d then go back unarmed (except for a knife) and then go track my deer, if approached by someone then I’d just explain what’s going on.

I have the same issue by me, a family has owned vacant land next to me for over 20 years and hasn’t done anything with it not even hunt it. It’s not posted and I’ve made every effort to contact him between letters and phone calls, with no response, other people on my road claim he doesn’t care what goes on as long as it’s not being destroyed, tax address is listed in Florida so knocking on door isn’t an option. So I just recover my deer and get out.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Traditional uplander said:


> Probably gonna try that in the morning, but there’s no houses even close.


Go get your deer.


Mole Hill said:


> I would think any Sportsman would disagree with going on private land posted or not without permission...again just my opinion


Most would be more concerned about game going to waste.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

buckguts1970 said:


> If a person chose to ignore the trespass law while recovering their deer shouldn't I be able to ignore the assault and battery law when I find them lol


Walk ins or appointment only?


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

John Hine said:


> Not posted, not Ag, go get yer deer!! Stand yer ground!! F em!


Group W for you.


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## snortwheeze (Jul 31, 2012)

Easier to ask forgiveness then permission...Sounds of it there's know one around to do so. I'd find my deer!


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

snortwheeze said:


> Easier to ask forgiveness then permission...Sounds of it there's know one around to do so. I'd find my deer!


Group W for you too. Welcome to the dark side.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

wpmisport said:


> Some people may have illegal activity on the property they do not want you to find out about (maybe even just the bait piles), other than that I cannot see why someone would say no but I am sure they still do.
> -----------------------


Probably in some cases. Otherwise maybe something to do with their goals and not intruding on certain areas of the property. Would suck if they needed access to someone else's land after saying no though.


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## snortwheeze (Jul 31, 2012)

mbrewer said:


> Group W for you too. Welcome to the dark side.


Not one to let things waste. Speak with authority after the fact if necessary but in this circumstance seems there's no reason to even ? It....


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

While I don't condone breaking laws or trespassing, there once was a time where it was perfectly acceptable to retrieve a deer that was shot and crossed a property line. Nobody prosecuted for it as it was the ethical thing to do to find a wounded deer and recover it. Things have changed but it was always best to ask permission. As a new hunter in my early teens when I got my first deer tag, property lines being crossed to recover a deer was fairly standard. I can't believe someone would refuse access for this action. Again, not condoning the action of recovery but it's F'd up when it's not allowed by a landowner.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Ieatshrooms said:


> Press charges and forgive later. Can't believe the amount of people trying to justify trespassing on this thread.


At the same time I have a hard time understanding a hunter on this.site getting bent out of shape over another hunter going after their deer. I get not wanting people traveling your land, tearing up property with trucks/quads or hunting your property. I cant fathom getting upset over a someone crossing my proptery line to follow a blood trail. I dont care where it
leads. 

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## HitFactor (Oct 19, 2021)

anagranite said:


> I understand you are well informed but that was from the officers mouth directly. He said it stays on the record. He also said the prosecutor wouldn't accept a trespass charge without signs or direct trespass on my farm land.


Generally with trespassing an Officer will issue a warning for trespassing. It's likely they will document that in someway, it could be called a formal written warning, dispatch notes, the Officers notebook. No need to get wrapped around the axle on exactly what was said. If tomorrow, the Officer finds the same guy he warned for trespassing on the property yesterday. He write the ticket or take whatever enforcement action is appropriate.

Many Officers prefer to perform the warning and the enforcement action themselves, or within their workgroup (shift, squad, Dept.) of Officers. This makes it much easier in court, one Officer can testify to everything.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

MossyHorns said:


> This is no joke. A CO spoke at my son's hunter safety class about 12 years ago and told the class he would be able to retrieve a deer off someone's property if you were denied access. He was a veteran CO who obviously didn't know the law. That's where people get these ideas.


The crazy things i have seen and heard in a hunters safety class..... best thing we did was go to an online system iMO. 

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## LGB (9 mo ago)

Clear difference trespassing to hunt another's property vs a clear blood trail crossing the line to recover a deer. I do understand that in the past on several occasions, trespasses have lied WHILE hunting without permission and said they were looking for a wounded deer. It's more than likely one reason why the law is in place. Permission is necessary but so is common sense.


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## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

I know my ground. Ask me first or F off 
I don't walk all over it myself, ever! So I will be with anyone who tracks on my ground period!

Clearly when land owners are present it's a different scenario. Parcels left unmarked are subject to different circumstances. Due diligence in those cases are the key.


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## Ieatshrooms (Sep 19, 2019)

DirtySteve said:


> At the same time I have a hard time understanding a hunter on this.site getting bent out of shape over another hunter going after their deer. I get not wanting people traveling your land, tearing up property with trucks/quads or hunting your property. I cant fathom getting upset over a someone crossing my proptery line to follow a blood trail. I dont care where it
> leads.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I dont step foot on about 35-40 acres of our land just to give deer sanctuary in an incredibly overhunted area. Earlier this year I had a guy, who hunts 5 yards off my property line, want to go tracking through that area. He shot at a deer quartering to him with a bow, had minimal penetration, and was letting it lay overnight. I told him i would meet him out there in the morning. 1. I wanted to confirm he isn't shooting onto my land. 2. I wanted to see if there was even a blood trail to begin with. 

We found 2 tiny drops of blood and based on the 3" of penetration and trail, we tracked it briefly onto my land and I told him that deer is still alive, I'm not going to go grid searching my sanctuary area because he took a bad shot at a deer on my property line. 

I saw his deer bedded in a downed top 3 days later at the front of my property. I tried stalking to it to put it out of its misery but it was so thick and the leaves were so crunchy it wasn't possible to get close enough for a clear lane. The deer was hardly able to hobble/run. 

You really think as a land owner I should just give him free willy nilly rights to go trouncing through an area that I don't even intrude on for months at a time? When he is hunting on my border to begin with? Taking low quality shots? I'm not saying that's the scenario here at all, but I'm saying you at least owe it to the landowner to allow them to make an informed decision.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> At the same time I have a hard time understanding a hunter on this.site getting bent out of shape over another hunter going after their deer. I get not wanting people traveling your land, tearing up property with trucks/quads or hunting your property. I cant fathom getting upset over a someone crossing my proptery line to follow a blood trail. I dont care where it
> leads.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I used to own property that butted up to public land. I had several Tom, Dick and Harry's ruin my hunt by not even attempt to contact me and start walking my property. In most cases they were wondering aimlessly trying to reestablish a blood trail. 

To make matters worse most of them were technically poaching as they were hunting the 30 yard no hunting barrier between the public/private boundary. Everyone that asked was allowed to track deer onto my property. Everyone that Trespassed and was caught was told to leave. Told them if they wanted their deer they could call the DNR and explain how they walked past dozens of signs and were asked to leave. I have no problem letting their deer rot in the woods. I also don't collect my road kill.


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## anagranite (Oct 23, 2010)

Ieatshrooms said:


> I dont step foot on about 35-40 acres of our land just to give deer sanctuary in an incredibly overhunted area. Earlier this year I had a guy, who hunts 5 yards off my property line, want to go tracking through that area. He shot at a deer quartering to him with a bow, had minimal penetration, and was letting it lay overnight. I told him i would meet him out there in the morning. 1. I wanted to confirm he isn't shooting onto my land. 2. I wanted to see if there was even a blood trail to begin with.
> 
> We found 2 tiny drops of blood and based on the 3" of penetration and trail, we tracked it briefly onto my land and I told him that deer is still alive, I'm not going to go grid searching my sanctuary area because he took a bad shot at a deer on my property line.
> 
> ...



What's more fun is when you walk that sanctuary in January and find a treestand from a trespasser.


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## Don’tgoenough (Aug 19, 2018)

MossyHorns said:


> If they don't want you on their property, then they better have it posted. DNR won't even show up if not legally posted. Just the facts.


If there is one stitch of ag land on the property it is not required to post the property. 100% wooded then it requires posting to prosecute.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

Bucman said:


> I know my ground. Ask me first or F off
> I don't walk all over it myself, ever! So I will be with anyone who tracks on my ground period!
> 
> Clearly when land owners are present it's a different scenario. Parcels left unmarked are subject to different circumstances. Due diligence in those cases are the key.


Absolutely the land owners right. I would possibly feel the same depending how well I knew the tracker. Most of my neighbors I wouldn't need to be with.


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## fishy cooler (2 mo ago)

Where does the landowner live?


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

How dare a Peasant shoot one of the Kings deer!!! He'll no he can't come onto the Kings property. Lol, I love these kind of threads


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Don’tgoenough said:


> If there is one stitch of ag land on the property it is not required to post the property. 100% wooded then it requires posting to prosecute.


Not true! There's a minimum requirement of tillable land for a parcel to be considered agricultural. Your garden would count.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

bowhunter426 said:


> *To make matters worse most of them were technically poaching as they were hunting the 30 yard no hunting barrier between the public/private boundary. *



Now that's a new made up one!


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Chessieman said:


> Now that's a new made up one!


Right, I thought it was 25 yards.

L & O


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

That's were all the Balloons seem to land!


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## wpmisport (Feb 9, 2010)

bowhunter426 said:


> hunting the 30 yard no hunting barrier between the public/private boundary


Do you have any links to DNR documentation to support this?


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

wpmisport said:


> Do you have any links to DNR documentation to support this?


Not needed.........he heard that in a bar around closing time. Why would anyone doubt this ?

L & O


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## buckguts1970 (Dec 7, 2012)

Thought it was 450ft with archery and 150 yards with firearms. Huh!


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Chessieman said:


> Now that's a new made up one!


Not made up.



wpmisport said:


> Do you have any links to DNR documentation to support this?





Liver and Onions said:


> Not needed.........he heard that in a bar around closing time. Why would anyone doubt this ?
> 
> L & O




Not a DNR rule. County park rule













buckguts1970 said:


> Thought it was 450ft with archery and 150 yards with firearms. Huh!


There is no State mandated safety Zone for archery season, prior to the change both were 150 yards or 450 feet.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Ieatshrooms said:


> I dont step foot on about 35-40 acres of our land just to give deer sanctuary in an incredibly overhunted area. Earlier this year I had a guy, who hunts 5 yards off my property line, want to go tracking through that area. He shot at a deer quartering to him with a bow, had minimal penetration, and was letting it lay overnight. I told him i would meet him out there in the morning. 1. I wanted to confirm he isn't shooting onto my land. 2. I wanted to see if there was even a blood trail to begin with.
> 
> We found 2 tiny drops of blood and based on the 3" of penetration and trail, we tracked it briefly onto my land and I told him that deer is still alive, I'm not going to go grid searching my sanctuary area because he took a bad shot at a deer on my property line.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you did everything right to me. "Yes, but..." is a reasonable expectation for both parties though it's only a one party decision.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

bowhunter426 said:


> ........
> Not a DNR rule. County park rule
> ............


You think that the county park rule applies here ?

L & O


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> How dare a Peasant shoot one of the Kings deer!!! He'll no he can't come onto the Kings property. Lol, I love these kind of threads


Never heard the DNR called the "King". They do OWN the deer until a tags hung on them, correct ???


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

LGB said:


> Ya I was being a wise Azz. They seem to claim the deer belong to them until they run into the side of your truck and wreck it. Then it's our responsibility. Or when the deer are doing crop damage and won't give out the permits to shoot them. Suddenly they aren't the people of michigans deer to manage. They then magically belong to the state.


I can dig it, I don’t trust them one Little bit


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## John Hine (Mar 31, 2019)

mbrewer said:


> Group W for you.


W?? As in Whoop the ass of the dude bothering me while I’m retrieving my deer?? Yes!!👍


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

RHRoss said:


> I can dig it, I don’t trust them one Little bit


It's not a trust issue for me it's a bait and switch definition. No emphasis on Bait. Just seems to be a one sided thing. Cake and eat it too definition.


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## R-boat (Aug 11, 2017)

Sharkbait11 said:


> there is here, not sure about Michigan. Law or no law if I cant contact the owners Im not letting a deer go to waste. Not advocating to tresspass but at the end of the day I put myself in the owners shoes, do they really want a dead animal left on their property. Every situation is going to be different as well. I would never trespass unless its the last resort.
> 
> Think if your dog or kid got lost on someone's property are you going to abandon it because its illegal to tresspass and you cant contact the owners? Every situation is different so everyone should weight the consequences of their actions even if it means bending the law to do what is right. Its not always black and white.


A deer isn't your kid or dog.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

RHRoss said:


> And if he lost his status, then why did he have to leave the old house?


He built a 2nd house on the property.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

RHRoss said:


> Did he consult with anyone, or trypsin to figure it himself? Like I said there is a lot to it and many ways around this


His whole farm is cows, corn, and hay. The rule is you have to have a min of 20 acres. No exceptions.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

MossyHorns said:


> His whole farm is cows, corn, and hay. The rule is you have to have a min of 20 acres. No exceptions.


What’s his total acreage?


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

RHRoss said:


> Also, I have a buddy that has 125 acres total, 70 of it is wet, the State is paying him $2200 per acre for the whole 125 to designate wetland, can you believe that? There is so many variables when it comes to property tax code, ya almost need a team to keep track of them all, it’s not just as easy as ag crops


You can tap maple trees for syrup and get the farm exemption too. Even if you dont dont do it yourself you can lease the land out for $1 to a local guy and give him a few weeks access. 

Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

RHRoss said:


> What’s his total acreage?


19 +1. 19 acres is not enough and you can't add the other 1 to it.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

MossyHorns said:


> 19 +1. 19 acres is not enough and you can't add the other 1 to it.


We’ll there ya go, cool man, I know it’s tough keeping track of all the regs for sure, it worse than the ever changing steelhead regs,lol


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

DirtySteve said:


> You can tap maple trees for syrup and get the farm exemption too. Even if you dont dont do it yourself you can lease the land out for $1 to a local guy and give him a few weeks access.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I understand


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

MossyHorns said:


> 19 +1. 19 acres is not enough and you can't add the other 1 to it.


My neighbor leases his 12.5 acres for hay and gets the farm exemption. He owns two 12.5 acre parcels. 1 of the parcels has about 9 acres of hay and he gets the exemption on that piece. 

Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

DirtySteve said:


> My neighbor leases his 12.5 acres for hay and gets the farm exemption. He owns two 12.5 acre parcels. 1 of the parcels has about 9 acres of hay and he gets the exemption on that piece.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Yeah, it don’t sound right for the other guy, he should consult someone and get all his options laid out, there is so many that us normal owners don’t know, and I wouldn’t take the extension office or townships workers word for it.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

MossyHorns said:


> Where did you get that? My township requires 20 acres to be considered an agricultural parcel. Definition of a farm is that the land is being used for commercial purposes. If you buy agricultural land and no longer plant crops for commercial sale, it's technically no longer a farm. The definition of a farm in the trespassing law is vague.


I am sure glad I sell those bags of Apples for bait from my trees. 
Just kidding!  




RHRoss said:


> Also, I have a buddy that has 125 acres total, 70 of it is wet, the State is paying him $2200 per acre for the whole 125 to designate wetland, can you believe that? There is so many variables when it comes to property tax code, ya almost need a team to keep track of them all, it’s not just as easy as ag crops


The state is paying him $250,000 per year?
I believe the townships set the AG acreage rules for acreage.
If you are rated AG, check every time you pay the taxes twice a year. They can change it and not notify you then you battle them or the tribunal to get it back after paying that tax one time.
You sure can fall under the rug if you lose your AG status besides the higher taxes.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Chessieman said:


> I am sure glad I sell those bags of Apples for bait from my trees.
> Just kidding!
> 
> 
> ...


It’s a wetland, township ain’t got dick to do with it


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

LGB said:


> Never heard the DNR called the "King". They do OWN the deer until a tags hung on them, correct ???


Well that one went after high. lol


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## Ieatshrooms (Sep 19, 2019)

Chessieman said:


> I am sure glad I sell those bags of Apples for bait from my trees.
> Just kidding!
> 
> 
> ...


The wetland set aside is not per year, it's a one time payment and the designated area must stay as wetlands for the lifetime of the property. They set up a habitat plan and you essentially lose all control. You can hunt and walk on it, no cutting trees, food plotting, etc. unless it was in the plan.

Your property has to meet certain criteria, it has to have been farmland, certain soil types, etc. Then you are allowed to apply to be picked. I've had a neighbor applying for 5 years now with no luck so far. Others in the area were practically begged to join when the program was just getting on its feet. Now its hard to be chosen.


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## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

Ieatshrooms said:


> The wetland set aside is not per year, it's a one time payment and the designated area must stay as wetlands for the lifetime of the property. They set up a habitat plan and you essentially lose all control. You can hunt and walk on it, no cutting trees, food plotting, etc. unless it was in the plan.
> 
> Your property has to meet certain criteria, it has to have been farmland, certain soil types, etc. Then you are allowed to apply to be picked. I've had a neighbor applying for 5 years now with no luck so far. Others in the area were practically begged to join when the program was just getting on its feet. Now its hard to be chosen.


As long as I can track (my) deer on that ground is all I need to know...Lol 😆


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Ieatshrooms said:


> The wetland set aside is not per year, it's a one time payment and the designated area must stay as wetlands for the lifetime of the property. They set up a habitat plan and you essentially lose all control. You can hunt and walk on it, no cutting trees, food plotting, etc. unless it was in the plan.
> 
> Your property has to meet certain criteria, it has to have been farmland, certain soil types, etc. Then you are allowed to apply to be picked. I've had a neighbor applying for 5 years now with no luck so far. Others in the area were practically begged to join when the program was just getting on its feet. Now its hard to be chosen.


Well they allowed him to keep a couple of plots, and paid him 3/4 of what he paid for it, he bought it for hunting only so he’s happy with the deal


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## Wyandotte (Feb 15, 2016)

MossyHorns said:


> Is the property posted or is it farmland? If neither, technically you are free to keep tracking. I know some may disagree, but time is of the essence.


So waiting until the township hall opens on Monday to find out who owns it probably isn't a good suggestion?


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

Wyandotte said:


> So waiting until the township hall opens on Monday to find out who owns it probably isn't a good suggestion?


Our counties are messed up, some have great information for free and others want money to look at the records excpeccally in NLP.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Wyandotte said:


> So waiting until the township hall opens on Monday to find out who owns it probably isn't a good suggestion?


Nope and I highly doubt they would give anyone a phone #. Getting a phone # is almost impossible these days with everyone having cell phones.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

MossyHorns said:


> Nope and I highly doubt they would give anyone a phone #. Getting a phone # is almost impossible these days with everyone having cell phones.


Get a name and county or city and you can find the phone number just by googling the name. Cell phone numbers are often there too.


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

..


LGB said:


> Get a name and county or city and you can find the phone number just by googling the name. Cell phone numbers are often there too.


Some counties have on-line systems with property ownership details. Otsego county is one that I know of. All the properties are on a map. Simply drill down to the property and the tax id with appear. Select "show details" and you will get the current owner name and address.

Onxmaps is another option. A subscription is about 30 bucks a year last time I checked.


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

R-boat said:


> Wanton waste law has been on the books for years in Michigan. We covered it 20 years ago in my son's hunter safety class.


mind showing us where its at in the laws?


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

brookie1 said:


> ..
> 
> 
> Some counties have on-line systems with property ownership details. Otsego county is one that I know of. All the properties are on a map. Simply drill down to the property and the tax id with appear. Select "show details" and you will get the current owner name and address.
> ...


Yep I subscribe to a few states per year. Not all have that available tho. Many do.


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

LGB said:


> Get a name and county or city and you can find the phone number just by googling the name. Cell phone numbers are often there too.


Way too much trouble for a doe or small buck, gezzz!!


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I wonder how many citiots would have an issue of some body was wandering around the yard during a family gathering. There really is no difference. It’s too bad trespassing isn’t aggressively enforced like in Colorado.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Luv2hunteup said:


> I wonder how many citiots would have an issue of some body was wandering around the yard during a family gathering. There really is no difference. It’s too bad trespassing isn’t aggressively enforced like in Colorado.


Tell those idiots to quit invading my worm sanctuary.


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## anagranite (Oct 23, 2010)

Ieatshrooms said:


> The wetland set aside is not per year, it's a one time payment and the designated area must stay as wetlands for the lifetime of the property. They set up a habitat plan and you essentially lose all control. You can hunt and walk on it, no cutting trees, food plotting, etc. unless it was in the plan.
> 
> Your property has to meet certain criteria, it has to have been farmland, certain soil types, etc. Then you are allowed to apply to be picked. I've had a neighbor applying for 5 years now with no luck so far. Others in the area were practically begged to join when the program was just getting on its feet. Now its hard to be chosen.


My property is in a Conservation Easement. Two separate parcels and each Easement has different restrictions. Sounds very similar. I don't get paid anything but I bought the property knowing this and my taxable value is lower because of it.


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## Sharkbait11 (Apr 7, 2017)

R-boat said:


> A deer isn't your kid or dog.


Fine then Im just looking for my pet deer... Normally responds to Mehhh or Mahhh. If found please gut and cut into steaks Ill be by later to pickup.


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## jasperdog (Nov 8, 2007)

anagranite said:


> My property is in a Conservation Easement. Two separate parcels and each Easement has different restrictions. Sounds very similar. I don't get paid anything but I bought the property knowing this and my taxable value is lower because of it.


 The entity that placed it in the Conservation Easement received a tax deduction for the appraised “diminished value”

Interestingly, ( and I am just relaying what I hear) there is getting to be a little backlash on some of these conservation treatments….

Has anyone ever inspected the properties for adherence to the CE conditions?

I have no dog, not suggesting anything at all, and don’t care but I was just wondering…..


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## anagranite (Oct 23, 2010)

jasperdog said:


> The entity that placed it in the Conservation Easement received a tax deduction for the appraised “diminished value”
> 
> Interestingly, ( and I am just relaying what I hear) there is getting to be a little backlash on some of these conservation treatments….
> 
> ...


They inspect the property annually, report and pictures each time. If I could get out of it I would but it seems almost impossible.


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## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

My rule is if someone wants permission to track on my property, they have to show me where they shot the deer. If I can see my POSTED signs from where they shot the deer, no permission granted. I’ve had too many public land chuckleheads set up on the line thinking they’re real clever. It gets to be really annoying every gun season when the orange army is posted up on every corner with their scent blowing into my property, especially when there’s tens of thousands of contiguous public land in every direction.


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## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> I think there is a difference between depending on someone else's property and occasionally tracking one on their property.


Yup, this is where I draw the line. If a guy has the common decency to not hunt right on the obvious runways leading on to my property and not on top of the numerous stands on my perimeter, I will help him retrieve. If he thinks he’s real smart because he pulled up Google maps and saw my very obvious food plot, set up on the access trails, and thinks I will give him permission after the fact, well he’s going to be real disappointed.

This year I had a guy ask who shot a nice 8 in the bedding area about a hundred fifty yards to the south. His truck was parked right on my corner but I let him retrieve because he had the decency to go far enough back where he wasn’t disturbing my hunting. Use common sense and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Assume that the private land owner will be hunting their entire property same as you and consider where the wind is blowing.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

wild bill said:


> mind showing us where its at in the laws?


There isn’t. Not in at least the last 26 years anyway. 🙂


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## LLSSt Clair (Apr 15, 2016)

Luv2hunteup said:


> I wonder how many citiots would have an issue of some body was wandering around the yard during a family gathering. There really is no difference. It’s too bad trespassing isn’t aggressively enforced like in Colorado.



Wandering trespassers down here aaint gonna be lookin for deers.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Ieatshrooms said:


> You can't say "Yes, but" if they don't ask. This guy was respectful and followed the laws and we got along fine and still chat today, trading trail cam pics. If a guy trespasses on my land he'd be treated differently.


I got it the first time. Owners own that's a given. 

I think your Yes but...description is the reasonable default position when asked for access to track a deer. It's a privilege afforded, not a right bestowed.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

John Hine said:


> W?? As in Whoop the ass of the dude bothering me while I’m retrieving my deer?? Yes!!👍


Group W ~ Alice's Restaurant et al


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

TriggerDiscipline said:


> My rule is if someone wants permission to track on my property, they have to show me where they shot the deer. If I can see my POSTED signs from where they shot the deer, no permission granted. I’ve had too many public land chuckleheads set up on the line thinking they’re real clever. It gets to be really annoying every gun season when the orange army is posted up on every corner with their scent blowing into my property, especially when there’s tens of thousands of contiguous public land in every direction.


If there is a way to say the same thing and not look like a punk, that ain't it.


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## RedM2 (Dec 19, 2007)

TriggerDiscipline said:


> Yup, this is where I draw the line. If a guy has the common decency to not hunt right on the obvious runways leading on to my property....


So in addition to ensuring your posted signs aren't visible (i can see the posted sign on the property we hunt next to from 200yds), you expect someone to ignore deer sign/travel corridors on public land because it leads to your property? Where exactly, in your opinion, do the obvious runways start and stop on public land that would encourage you to grant permission?


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## HuntinMichigan (Mar 14, 2021)

Traditional uplander said:


> Best number to call when deer runs onto private property?
> OnX only tells me their home address/tax.



Question is "did you get your deer?"


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Luv2hunteup said:


> I wonder how many citiots would have an issue of some body was wandering around the yard during a family gathering. There really is no difference. It’s too bad trespassing isn’t aggressively enforced like in Colorado.


Probably not many... Part of living in the 'burbs is having neighborhood kids wandering through your yard. People who expect everyone to stay off their lawn are generally the neighborhood joke.


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## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

pescadero said:


> Probably not many... Part of living in the 'burbs is having neighborhood kids wandering through your yard. People who expect everyone to stay off their lawn are generally the neighborhood joke.


Halloween doesn't count!


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## Botiz (Oct 21, 2010)

TriggerDiscipline said:


> My rule is if someone wants permission to track on my property, they have to show me where they shot the deer. If I can see my POSTED signs from where they shot the deer, no permission granted. I’ve had too many public land chuckleheads set up on the line thinking they’re real clever. It gets to be really annoying every gun season when the orange army is posted up on every corner with their scent blowing into my property, especially when there’s tens of thousands of contiguous public land in every direction.


We all trust you return the favor and avoid shooting deer that venture onto the public land at some point.


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## deagansdad1 (Jan 27, 2021)

We hunt LOTS of different ag fields and don't have permission for most of any of the surrounding woods. We purposely shoot them through the shoulders. Waste about 5 lbs of burger meat but rarely do they run. It's a tough game, can't always shoot em perfect. Good luck finding your animal. 

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk


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## Traditional uplander (Mar 24, 2017)

pescadero said:


> Probably not many... Part of living in the 'burbs is having neighborhood kids wandering through your yard. People who expect everyone to stay off their lawn are generally the neighborhood joke.





HuntinMichigan said:


> Question is "did you get your deer?"


Hello, yes I did.
I was able to reach a friend who was off the record able to give me several numbers to try and I made contact at 10:15. He was extremely great full that I respected his land and didn’t make entry without permission.. The deer only made it 75-100 yards into his swamp, he asked me to call him yesterday with my findings and I did.. very nice person, we talked for a long time on the phone… Without even asking he offered me to rabbit and predator hunt his land after January 1st. With my 11 year old son…
Thanks all!! And sorry for the heated conversation this topic brought.
View attachment 868833
View attachment 868833


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Traditional uplander said:


> Hello, yes I did.
> I was able to reach a friend who was off the record able to give me several numbers to try and I made contact at 10:15. He was extremely great full that I respected his land and didn’t make entry without permission.. The deer only made it 75-100 yards into his swamp, he asked me to call him yesterday with my findings and I did.. very nice person, we talked for a long time on the phone… Without even asking he offered me to rabbit and predator hunt his land after January 1st. With my 11 year old son…
> Thanks all!! And sorry for the heated conversation this topic brought.
> View attachment 868833
> View attachment 868833


Congrats!
And thank you for the effort of recovering from private land through the proper channel.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Traditional uplander said:


> Hello, yes I did.
> I was able to reach a friend who was off the record able to give me several numbers to try and I made contact at 10:15. He was extremely great full that I respected his land and didn’t make entry without permission.. The deer only made it 75-100 yards into his swamp, he asked me to call him yesterday with my findings and I did.. very nice person, we talked for a long time on the phone… Without even asking he offered me to rabbit and predator hunt his land after January 1st. With my 11 year old son…
> Thanks all!! And sorry for the heated conversation this topic brought.
> View attachment 868833
> View attachment 868833


Awesome, Good Job , How long did it lay and was it spoiled?


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## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

RedM2 said:


> So in addition to ensuring your posted signs aren't visible (i can see the posted sign on the property we hunt next to from 200yds), you expect someone to ignore deer sign/travel corridors on public land because it leads to your property? Where exactly, in your opinion, do the obvious runways start and stop on public land that would encourage you to grant permission?


The area around my property is pretty thick. There’s only one side you can see more than 100 yards. The other three sides it’s less than 50. Use common sense. If it’s a trail going willy nilly through a bedding area or from bedding to food, knock yourself out. If it’s an 8 foot wide corridor full of tracks that you saw on OnX or Google maps leads on to a food plot right over the line, it’s probably a reasonable assumption that the landowner will not be thrilled to find you hunting it. Consider also that you are not the only brain genius to survey the satellite image and come up with the same plan. In fact, the odds are dozens of guys have the same idea. 

When I hunt public, I keep moving if someone is parked in the area, and never hunt within sight of other hunters. Maybe that’s not possible down south, but it’s considered rude up here in the north country not to spread out.


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

TriggerDiscipline said:


> When I hunt public, I keep moving if someone is parked in the area, and never hunt within sight of other hunters. Maybe that’s not possible down south, but it’s considered rude up here in the north country not to spread out.


Never used to be like that. When I started hunting in the early 70's in the northern lower we all parked at the same places and if you saw someone in the woods while hunting you would just as likely strike up a conversation as continue on. It was also likely that you would both be moving. Nowadays I get yelled at for getting too close or told to leave because someone set up a blind on a ridge and I can't hunt near it. This thread shows all the different opinions others have. The "f'em, I'm the only one that matters" crowd seems to be growing.


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## RedM2 (Dec 19, 2007)

TriggerDiscipline said:


> The area around my property is pretty thick. There’s only one side you can see more than 100 yards. The other three sides it’s less than 50. Use common sense. If it’s a trail going willy nilly through a bedding area or from bedding to food, knock yourself out. If it’s an 8 foot wide corridor full of tracks that you saw on OnX or Google maps leads on to a food plot right over the line, it’s probably a reasonable assumption that the landowner will not be thrilled to find you hunting it. Consider also that you are not the only brain genius to survey the satellite image and come up with the same plan. In fact, the odds are dozens of guys have the same idea.


This take just doesn't seem very reasonable to me... for hunters on public to retrieve a deer they shot, you suggest they need stay 50-100yds from the property line, yet a private land food plot has been put in right over the line with the expectation that people hunting the public need to ignore the obvious 8ft travel corridor that can be seen using remote scouting techniques. For a little more perspective, based on a 20 acre piece of land (1320'x660') that has 3 public land borders with a 100yd buffer and two 50 yard buffers, you'd expect to have an estimated buffer of roughly 15acres... 3/4 the size of the private land piece. I just can't get on board with that.


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## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

brookie1 said:


> Never used to be like that. When I started hunting in the early 70's in the northern lower we all parked at the same places and if you saw someone in the woods while hunting you would just as likely strike up a conversation as continue on. It was also likely that you would both be moving. Nowadays I get yelled at for getting too close or told to leave because someone set up a blind on a ridge and I can't hunt near it. This thread shows all the different opinions others have. The "f'em, I'm the only one that matters" crowd seems to be growing.


Thank God things have changed for the better. Last thing I want to rub into in the woods is some Clark griswold yahoo who wants to yak about sports or the weather while I’m trying to enjoy some peace and quiet.


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

TriggerDiscipline said:


> Thank God things have changed for the better. Last thing I want to rub into in the woods is some Clark griswold yahoo who wants to yak about sports or the weather while I’m trying to enjoy some peace and quiet.


Well that's why when I do hunt I wait until the end of the season so that I don't have to deal with the current crop of humans, especially curmudgeons and others similar.


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## Traditional uplander (Mar 24, 2017)

RHRoss said:


> Awesome, Good Job , How long did it lay and was it spoiled?





RHRoss said:


> Awesome, Good Job , How long did it lay and was it spoiled?


No spoilage, shots were approximately 5:10pm. I went back that night once contact was made. I was back to the truck with him by 11:30pm. first shot was low, about 2” below the heart and the second took his left front leg almost off, third shot was a clean miss.
Long night.


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## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

brookie1 said:


> Well that's why when I do hunt I wait until the end of the season so that I don't have to deal with the current crop of humans, especially curmudgeons and others similar.


I’m thinking an apology is in order, mea culpa, I’ve been thinking about this the wrong way. In fact, I have the perfect spot for you to hunt the early season. On the southeast corner of my property there’s a big runway heading to a food plot about 50 yards to the northeast, can’t miss it. You sit there, and you’re guaranteed at least a doe. And better yet, you will have a parade of congenial fellows there from dawn to dusk to converse with. You sit there and ask these fellows how their hunts are going, what spark plugs do they run in their trucks, whether they’re a packers or lions fan, etc. and you can hunt there for life. I’ll even have my nephew run you coffee and snacks.


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## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

Glad it worked out for the OP. Due diligence prevails! Also acquired a private predator spot, that's karma baby! Nice example of sportsmanship, thank you.


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## Martin Looker (Jul 16, 2015)

And most of the nasty comments were unnecessary


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Traditional uplander said:


> No spoilage, shots were approximately 5:10pm. I went back that night once contact was made. I was back to the truck with him by 11:30pm. first shot was low, about 2” below the heart and the second took his left front leg almost off, third shot was a clean miss.
> Long night.


Double awesome, good for you,im glad it turned out well


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

brookie1 said:


> Well that's why when I do hunt I wait until the end of the season so that I don't have to deal with the current crop of humans, especially curmudgeons and others similar.


Screw that! I have absolutely no fear or problems running some fool off when necessary, after reading some of these replies shows me some people have no salt in their piss at all, sometimes ya just gotta be a prick to keep the Idiots at bay.


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## fowl (Feb 15, 2003)

How is it the DNRs role to play referee between landowners?. If all the kids could play nice in the sand box, then no issues.

Deer I shoot often run onto neighbors land, quick phone call and no problem to retrieve. In the off season I stop by to shoot the sh$& and take them some zuchinni bread, apple crisp, etc. Being a good neighbor goes a long way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

DirtySteve said:


> You can tap maple trees for syrup and get the farm exemption too. Even if you dont dont do it yourself you can lease the land out for $1 to a local guy and give him a few weeks access.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I'm no expert on this but all of this AG tax exemption stuff really ha to do with location within the state,county,township.
Especially as areas start to change and become divided and rural.
How would a simple guy like me now this one might ask.
My daughter has her environmental science degree along with a law degree specializing in municipality and environmental law.
Simply step into the township next door and it can be an entirely different world. The grandfather clauses can be quite complex as well.

Off topic here now but I just went to the fridge and dispense some ice and water and as I was typing my dog went to the kitchen then I heard the water activate and hear a dog lapping it up.
Dottie just learned how to serve herself water. lol 
Amazing!! 

One smart dog!


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

November Sunrise said:


> You ain't real savvy if you don't understand that some people value property rights over retrieving a dead deer and others value retrieving an animal whose life they took over property rights. Both sides think their perspective is ethically superior.


What is ethical about property rights?
I don't understand?


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

birdhntr said:


> What is ethical about property rights?
> I don't understand?


Trespassing is unethical.

Killing a deer and leaving it to rot 6 feet onto a property where the hunter doesn't have permission to go is unethical.

Which violation of ethics an individual chooses to act on is a gray topic that many try to oversimplify into black & white because they're not well equipped to handle shades of gray.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Learn to shoot, plain and simple of it, become extremely proficient with your weapon. Keep your azz off of my property, and don't bother me with some sad tale.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

November Sunrise said:


> Trespassing is unethical.
> 
> Killing a deer and leaving it to rot 6 feet onto a property where the hunter doesn't have permission to go is unethical.
> 
> Which violation of ethics an individual chooses to act on is a gray topic that many try to oversimplify into black & white because they're not well equipped to handle shades of gray.


I live in the grey


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

RHRoss said:


> I live in the grey


Everyone does. Except on web forums where some live in a make believe world where they pretend to be lilly white in their actions - lol.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Michigan Legislature - Section 750.552


The Michigan Legislature Website is a free service of the Legislative Internet Technology Team in cooperation with the Michigan Legislative Council, the Michigan House of Representatives, and the Michigan Senate.



www.legislature.mi.gov




.
Daughter sent this as a reply.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

birdhntr said:


> I'm no expert on this but all of this AG tax exemption stuff really ha to do with location within the state,county,township.
> Especially as areas start to change and become divided and rural.
> How would a simple guy like me now this one might ask.
> My daughter has her environmental science degree along with a law degree specializing in municipality and environmental law.
> ...


The maple syrup farm tax exemption was approved at the state level around 2012-2015 timeframe. It is written in the tax code. Where things get grey is how in depth a twp tax assessor may or may not get as far as what percentage of the land he deems qualifies for the excemption and how often he checks to make sure you still harvest the syrup yearly. There are rigid rules an assessor is supposed to follow but some do not get that serious about it. Atleast thats the way I understand it. Same goes for other farm exemptions. My neighbor has his land hayed. It hasnt been seeded in 25 yrs. It is rarely cut more than once a year and the guy who cuts it uses it for personal use on his cattle farm. Some years it is partially cut. The owner leases it to the farmer for $1.

My kids got into making syrup for a few years at one point. We toured some syrup operations and learned a little. 

Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

RHRoss said:


> Nope


I do as my attorney advised me.


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## brewster (May 30, 2010)

Ieatshrooms said:


> You really think as a land owner I should just give him free willy nilly rights to go trouncing through an area that I don't even intrude on for months at a time? When he is hunting on my border to begin with? Taking low quality shots? I'm not saying that's the scenario here at all, but I'm saying you at least owe it to the landowner to allow them to make an informed decision.




NO, I do not. I live in farm country and have never had a problem with the occasional hunter coming to look for a deer. The last 2 or 3 years a youngster, 20's, has stopped to ask for permission to look for his deer. 

He's said " Can I look for my deer, I've shot 3 bucks and I can't find them." 

I helped him look the first couple years, then, after that comment, I said NO, if you have heavy blood we'll look. He hasn't been back.

Worst part is, they just took over that farm.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

birdhntr said:


> Michigan Legislature - Section 750.552
> 
> 
> The Michigan Legislature Website is a free service of the Legislative Internet Technology Team in cooperation with the Michigan Legislative Council, the Michigan House of Representatives, and the Michigan Senate.
> ...


Personal ethics can differ from the technicalities of a law. An individuals ethics may restrict them from doing things that are legal or may permit them in good conscience to do something that is illegal.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

DirtySteve said:


> The maple syrup farm tax exemption was approved at the state level around 2012-2015 timeframe. It is written in the tax code. Where things get grey is how in depth a twp tax assessor may or may not get as far as what percentage of the land he deems qualifies for the excemption and how often he checks to make sure you still harvest the syrup yearly. There are rigid rules an assessor is supposed to follow but some do not get that serious about it. Atleast thats the way I understand it. Same goes for other farm exemptions. My neighbor has his land hayed. It hasnt been seeded in 25 yrs. It is rarely cut more than once a year and the guy who cuts it uses it for personal use on his cattle farm. Some years it is partially cut. The owner leases it to the farmer for $1.
> 
> My kids got into making syrup for a few years at one point. We toured some syrup operations and learned a little.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


My good friend wanted to get his 40 acre farm (most is an old hay field)
converted back to ag. It was rezoned by the township unknowingly to him just before his father passed.
He can farm it but no ag credit.
If they would have kept working it he would be grandfathered in.
Daughter looked into it and there's nothing he can do even though there is AG land in the township.
3 generation farm.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

November Sunrise said:


> Personal ethics can differ from the technicalities of a law. An individuals ethics may restrict them from doing things that are legal or may permit them in good conscience to do something that is illegal.


Correct.
If I can't contact an owner and it isn't posted I am going to look for a deer.
There is only one piece in a few square miles around us.
He is a deer nut.
The locals refer to him as the guy that owns all the deer. lol.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

GIDEON said:


> Learn to shoot, plain and simple of it, become extremely proficient with your weapon. Keep your azz off of my property, and don't bother me with some sad tale.


like a good neighbor "Gideon" is there!


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## brewster (May 30, 2010)

birdhntr said:


> My good friend wanted to get his 40 acre farm (most is an old hay field)
> converted back to ag. It was rezoned by the township unknowingly to him just before his father passed.
> He can farm it but no ag credit.
> If they would have kept working it he would be grandfathered in.
> ...




How isn't a hay field ag. If nothing have someone bale it for next to nothing and keep your ag, that's amazing.


----------



## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

November Sunrise said:


> Everyone does. Except on web forums where some live in a make believe world where they pretend to be lilly white in their actions - lol.


I can dig it


----------



## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

birdhntr said:


> I do as my attorney advised me.


I go absolutely no where unarmed!


----------



## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

November Sunrise said:


> You ain't real savvy if you don't understand that some people value property rights over retrieving a dead deer and others value retrieving an animal whose life they took over property rights. Both sides think their perspective is ethically superior.


Some people value shoes over a human life......savvy


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

brewster said:


> How isn't a hay field ag. If nothing have someone bale it for next to nothing and keep your ag, that's amazing.





brewster said:


> How isn't a hay field ag. If nothing have someone bale it for next to nothing and keep your ag, that's amazing.


It is rezoned R3 (residential)

Because the land wasn't being worked and the zoning wasn't contested at the time it lost status and can not be reversed.
This is what happens when farm country becomes rural.
My Daughter's is one of the top municipality lawyers around.
Nothing will change it.
The only way is if AG was adjacent and that farm with the AG bought it from him.


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Tom (mich) said:


> I'd go out on a limb and posit that which camp you fall in is highly correlated to the amount of property one owns.
> 
> Landowner of zero acres - letting a deer rot is more unethical
> 
> ...


I suspect there are many exceptions, as I don't believe the majority of rural landowners consider tracking a deer on their land to be a big deal. 

But that's not the fun part of this discussion. The fun part is if a deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line, on an unhunted parcel owned by an of out state landowner who is unreachable, what do the "property lines are sacred" crowd actually do in that case? 

They would have us to believe they wouldn't take 2 steps across the property line to retrieve the deer. Color me highly skeptical of their purity claims, as I bet 99% of them would snag that deer and rationalize it as not "really" trespassing.


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

November Sunrise said:


> I suspect there are many exceptions, as I don't believe the majority of rural landowners consider tracking a deer on their land to be a big deal.
> 
> But that's not the fun part of this discussion. The fun part is if a deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line, on an unhunted parcel owned by an of out state landowner who is unreachable, what do the "property lines are sacred" crowd actually do in that case?
> 
> They would have us to believe they wouldn't take 2 steps across the property line to retrieve the deer. Color me highly skeptical of their purity claims, as I bet 99% of them would snag that deer and rationalize it as not "really" trespassing.


What would Henson Cargill say?


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Waif said:


> What would Henson Cargill say?


I like the pop culture reference. Ad the watching eyes of children to the mix makes the hypothetical scenario even more fun to debate.


----------



## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Waif said:


> What would Henson Cargill say?


Who f-cking cares


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

November Sunrise said:


> I like the pop culture reference. Ad the watching eyes of children to the mix makes the hypothetical scenario even more fun to debate.


I could lob a noose six feet...

Neighboring property has an at will track if you must but don't shoot across line from your side on a nonwounded deer informal agreement.
Now there's a tree stand a few feet off the line with branches cleared for a sightline onto an opening on mine.
No , I can't say anyone would shoot a brute standing there. But why tempt ones-self?
Of course it's the site deer go in and out of too.
Which is why I've stayed out of there. Let them travel. 

Ah well. Stand is not on my property. If hunter bounces after falling we'll see where he/they land.
I took the low road and there's a sign to admire from it now. A mole repeller is on reserve.

With the landowner there's health , it's being hunted by multiple parties. Fine too. Not my business as the landowner has not asked me to watch it. 
Two of the hunters there were out back of a neighbor beyond after midnight with lights and shouting. Crossed my border to get there. Unless they flew.
Other neighbor hit them with a spotlight and they took off.
Only to return the next day to ask if they could track. 
They were declined. Not only for not getting permission the prior evening , but for blowing out multiple sanctuary sites
far from where they were allegedly permitted to hunt.

Knowing someone is tracking near means knowing a bullet sent towards cover risks someone unseen in the line of fire.
Probably why one neighbor went out of his way to let me know . Well , a couple have.
That's fine too.
I've told more than one that if you thunk one solid you have an obligation to follow up. So have at it if it went onto my property.

That does not mean go trespassing without permission though. Big difference.


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

RHRoss said:


> Who f-cking cares


Johnny law?
( Not to be confused with Johnny Walkers Law.)


----------



## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Waif said:


> Johnny law?
> ( Not to be confused with Johnny Walkers Law.)


I hate Scotch, More of a Rye Guy


----------



## mcfish (Jan 24, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> For 10 pages now the ms.com membership has failed to agree on whether it's more ethical to recover the animal or to not go where permitted. I suspect that some posters may take a stance online that is different than what they would actually do in real life scenarios.


I've found that the view on trespassing goes hand and hand with how much property one owns. The smaller the property, the more they feel it's ok to trespass. 

If my pet cock flies into someone's house and they're not home, can I go in their house to get it? He needs his meds and it'd be unethical to let him die.


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## jiggin is livin (Jan 7, 2011)

November Sunrise said:


> I suspect there are many exceptions, as I don't believe the majority of rural landowners consider tracking a deer on their land to be a big deal.
> 
> But that's not the fun part of this discussion. The fun part is if a deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line, on an unhunted parcel owned by an of out state landowner who is unreachable, what do the "property lines are sacred" crowd actually do in that case?
> 
> They would have us to believe they wouldn't take 2 steps across the property line to retrieve the deer. Color me highly skeptical of their purity claims, as I bet 99% of them would snag that deer and rationalize it as not "really" trespassing.


In that case, I would grab my deer. Every time. 

Same as I would hope anyone would.


----------



## jiggin is livin (Jan 7, 2011)

mcfish said:


> I've found that the view on trespassing goes hand and hand with how much property one owns. The smaller the property, the more they feel it's ok to trespass.
> 
> If my pet cock flies into someone's house and they're not home, can I go in their house to get it? He needs his meds and it'd be unethical to let him die.


You pet your cock in your own house.


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

RHRoss said:


> I hate Scotch, More of a Rye Guy


Rye not?


----------



## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Waif said:


> Rye not?


Or Bourbon, but it gets abit heavy after the first bottle


----------



## buckguts1970 (Dec 7, 2012)

mcfish said:


> I've found that the view on trespassing goes hand and hand with how much property one owns. The smaller the property, the more they feel it's ok to trespass.
> 
> If my pet cock flies into someone's house and they're not home, can I go in their house to get it? He needs his meds and it'd be unethical to let him die.


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

mcfish said:


> I've found that the view on trespassing goes hand and hand with how much property one owns. The smaller the property, the more they feel it's ok to trespass.
> 
> If my pet cock flies into someone's house and they're not home, can I go in their house to get it? He needs his meds and it'd be unethical to let him die.


I perceive it as the opposite. A guy with 15 acres of habitat will experience an impact if someone tracks a deer through his property. A guy with 200 acres of habitat will experience little if any impact if someone traipses through 15 of his acres.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

jiggin is livin said:


> In that case, I would grab my deer. Every time.
> 
> Same as I would hope anyone would.


The purity guys want you to believe their reverence for property lines runs so deep they'd let that deer rot rather than retrieving it.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

fowl said:


> How is it the DNRs role to play referee between landowners?.


It's their job to enforce the law. They are LITERALLY given a monopoly on playing legal referee.

The law says I can't trespass to get my deer.
The law says no one can tag a deer they didn't shoot.
It's the job of the DNR to uphold both of those laws.

...and I won't trespass - but you can be sure if you won't let me retrieve a deer, I'm making sure the CO knows you might be trying to illegally tag a deer you didn't shoot.


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## mcfish (Jan 24, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> I perceive it as the opposite. A guy with 15 acres of habitat will experience an impact if someone tracks a deer through his property. A guy with 200 acres of habitat will experience little if any impact if someone traipses through 15 of his acres.


I'm talking about property in general. 

The last trespasser I confronted was tracking into my property without permission. I asked him if I could go on his property whenever I felt like it. "Well, I only have less than 2 acres" was the reply, which I've found to be typical. Thus, the less someone owns, the more they feel like what's mine is theirs. I have friends that have to deal with guys with tiny properties shooting bucks they KNOW will go where they are not welcome.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

GIDEON said:


> Learn to shoot, plain and simple of it, become extremely proficient with your weapon. Keep your azz off of my property, and don't bother me with some sad tale.


I've had a double lung pass through with a 12 gauge Lightfield Hybrid EXP slug go almost 200 yards....

You can make a good shot, and still easily have a deer get off an 80 acre parcel.


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## anagranite (Oct 23, 2010)

We archery hunt and shotgun hunt our property, the sad part is we have to take out a front shoulder to prevent deer from leaving our place. I have 35 neighbors, mostly subdivisions, that border our land. Haven't had an issue yet...


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## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

When you have to justify breaking the law because of your ethics your moral compass is definitely broke!!!


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

mcfish said:


> I'm talking about property in general.
> 
> The last trespasser I confronted was tracking into my property without permission. I asked him if I could go on his property whenever I felt like it. "Well, I only have less than 2 acres" was the reply, which I've found to be typical. Thus, the less someone owns, the more they feel like what's mine is theirs. I have friends that have to deal with guys with tiny properties shooting bucks they KNOW will go where they are not welcome.


Yes, I see what you mean now.


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Mole Hill said:


> When you have to justify breaking the law because of your ethics your moral compass is definitely broke!!!


Deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?


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## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

Deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot? 

Deer is lying dead 60 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?

Deer is lying dead 600 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot? 

Why is proximity relevant? And, if it is, what's the magic number in which it becomes appropriate to trespass?


----------



## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

November Sunrise said:


> The purity guys want you to believe their reverence for property lines runs so deep they'd let that deer rot rather than retrieving it.


The online purity people are much different than real life one during the actual moment.


----------



## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Tom (mich) said:


> Deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> Deer is lying dead 60 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> ...


I will go get it and the purists can sit there and debate it while I drag there deer back


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

November Sunrise said:


> Deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?


I would get my lasso


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Tom (mich) said:


> Deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> Deer is lying dead 60 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> ...


Proximity is relevant because my contention is that most of the purists about property lines aren't nearly as pure as they claim. I think most of them would grab that deer and feel that it was more ethical to do so than to let it rot.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

November Sunrise said:


> You bought land that adjoins tens of thousands of acres of contiguous public land????
> 
> Is there some secret satisfaction you derive from owning ground that is guaranteed to generate a high amount of frustration every season?


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

birdhntr said:


> The online purity people are much different than real life one during the actual moment.


Yes, that's exactly my contention.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Waif said:


> What would Henson Cargill say?


Well played.


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## mcfish (Jan 24, 2010)

Perhaps you guys are right, and I'd go 6 feet over and drag it home. 

Buy you can bet your sweet ass I'd turn over every rock possible to find the landowner and let them know. And I'd offer something in return. 

I've been dealing with trespassers for a long time (grew up on the family farm, scrimped and saved to buy it) so maybe I'm a little jaded, but I consider trespassing... trespassing. It's not yours, period.


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## JohnnyB87 (Sep 27, 2018)

Again another disconnect with people on the forum and every person I've met in real life. Everyone I know is going over there to get that deer, and they should. You get a guy who tells you absolutely no way, never cross not even 1 foot, he's the guy you watch closely. More than likely a psychopath or long list of other mental illness 😅


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Tom (mich) said:


> Deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> Deer is lying dead 60 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> ...


Yes x 3. 
Ima Tony Barretta theme song that biotch and be done with it.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

birdhntr said:


> I will go get it and the purists can sit there and debate it while I drag there deer back


Trespasser's almanac lists that as the Naked Bootleg.


----------



## Rasputin (Jan 13, 2009)

Isn’t it common for surveys to be off by 10 feet or more? Maybe that deer is four feet on your property? Or, maybe 16 feet onto the neighbors? Yikes!!!

I own land, I would not refuse to let someone track their deer, other than a couple notable situations where someone set up on the property line to shoot at deer coming off my property. Where do deer typically run after being shot? Back to the cover they came from. 

I do want to know if somebody is going to be on my property, so contact me so I know and if I’m around, I’ll probably help. 

I did have an older fella put a tree stand on the property line. He painted numbers on my trees to indicate distance from his stand. I went from furious to mildly amused after I tracked him down and confronted him. His personal ethics didn’t seem violated, different perspective than I have, he was harmless and was enjoying his hunts, so I laughed it off and wished him good luck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Tom (mich) said:


> Deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> Deer is lying dead 60 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> ...



Why is proximity relevant?

Because if we're talking 6'... there is about a 50% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.
If we're talking 60'... there is about a 10% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.
If we're talking 600'... there is about a 0.1% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

pescadero said:


> Why is proximity relevant?
> 
> Because if we're talking 6'... there is about a 50% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.
> If we're talking 60'... there is about a 10% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.
> If we're talking 600'... there is about a 0.1% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.


That is all irrelevant. To the best your knowledge in all 3 scenarios the deer is on their property.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

pescadero said:


> Why is proximity relevant?
> 
> Because if we're talking 6'... there is about a 50% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.
> If we're talking 60'... there is about a 10% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.
> If we're talking 600'... there is about a 0.1% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.


You ignored the question at the end and focused on the fly crap instead. What's your limit? How far does your dead deer need to be on someone else's property before you trespass?


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DirtySteve said:


> That is all irrelevant. To the best your knowledge in all 3 scenarios the deer is on their property.


Actually - in the 6' scenario, based on experience... to the best of my knowledge it's NOT on their property.

IME - probably more than half parcels which border public land are illegally posting beyond their borders... sometimes accidentally, but quite often completely intentionally.


----------



## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

pescadero said:


> Why is proximity relevant?
> 
> Because if we're talking 6'... there is about a 50% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.
> If we're talking 60'... there is about a 10% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.
> If we're talking 600'... there is about a 0.1% chance the deer isn't actually on their property.


Pescy: "Your honor, the stats I made up for an MS debate says there was a 0.1% chance the deer wasn't on their property."

Keep us posted on this.


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Tom (mich) said:


> You ignored the question at the end and focused on the fly crap instead. What's your limit? How far does your dead deer need to be on someone else's property before you trespass?


Eh... I won't illegally trespass.

If I can't reach you, and I got a good blood trail - I make take my dog out for an unleahsed walk along your property boundary right where the blood trail is and have to retrieve him though.

...and if I do get a hold of you and you don't let me track? I'm going to be using every legal means imaginable to make your life awful. 

Packages addressed to you from the local VD clinic, AIDS clinic, KKK Grand Dragon, etc.

Notes from your mistress to your wife (oh, you don't have a mistress? Not my problem)

Regular visits from the local police - I thought maybe I heard some domestic violence, or maybe the kid has a bruise CPS might be interested in, or I thought I saw a piece of stolen property in your yard, or I saw you baiting, or...

Let EVERYONE in the community know EVERYTHING I can find out about you (had a bankruptcy? Divorce? OWI? Flunked HS?)


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Tom (mich) said:


> Pescy: "Your honor, the stats I made up for an MS debate says there was a 0.1% chance the deer wasn't on their property."
> 
> Keep us posted on this.


I've never had to cross a boundary to follow a deer - but if it ever does happen, I know loopholes well enough not to catch a trespassing charge, and I'm not going to trespass and open myself up to that.

It's pretty easy to avoid getting charged unless you're making a habit of it.


----------



## mcfish (Jan 24, 2010)

You can tell who owns property and who has a lot in town.


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## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

pescadero said:


> Eh... I won't illegally trespass.
> 
> If I can't reach you, and I got a good blood trail - I make take my dog out for an unleahsed walk along your property boundary right where the blood trail is and have to retrieve him though.
> 
> ...


 True colors showing?


----------



## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

pescadero said:


> Eh... I won't illegally trespass.
> 
> If I can't reach you, and I got a good blood trail - I make take my dog out for an unleahsed walk along your property boundary right where the blood trail is and have to retrieve him though.
> 
> ...


Eh, this seems harsh. Enough said.


----------



## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

pescadero said:


> Eh... I won't illegally trespass.
> 
> If I can't reach you, and I got a good blood trail - I make take my dog out for an unleahsed walk along your property boundary right where the blood trail is and have to retrieve him though.
> 
> ...


I call BS on that one, you are sucker fishing again!

"I'm going to be using every legal means imaginable"

I hope you have more than 2 acres, it would cost you a lot more than that after you get sued. 
I guess you legal means is to lie right?


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Bucman said:


> True colors showing?


Sure...

I definitely believe that someone who when asked to allow someone to track their deer says no (note -asked with no trespassing) is so unethical they deserve the joy of dealing with whatever horror show a sociopath can deliver within the law.

I won't break the law... but you screw me, and I'll screw you 100% legally.

I'm largely not the vindictive type, but there are certain things.


----------



## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

I'm going to start asking ms handles before alowing any tracking! And photo ID


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Tom (mich) said:


> Eh, this seems harsh. Enough said.


Seems 100% appropriate to me. Unethical conduct against others leads to retribution. As long as no laws are broken - folks made their own bed.


----------



## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

birdhntr said:


> The online purity people are much different than real life one during the actual moment.


The scum bag trespassers seem to be the same throughout their life.


----------



## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

pescadero said:


> Sure...
> 
> I definitely believe that someone who when asked to allow someone to track their deer says no (note -asked with no trespassing) is so unethical they deserve the joy of dealing with whatever horror show a sociopath can deliver within the law.
> 
> ...


We have a winner, someone willing to die for a stinking, gut shot deer that isn't legally theirs...LMAO 🤣


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Mole Hill said:


> We have a winner, someone willing to die for a stinking, gut shot deer that isn't legally theirs...LMAO 🤣


Willing to die?

How exactly is Mr. Landowner going to have any idea which public land hunter (may not even be a Michigan resident) is sending packages/letters/anonymous tips?

Mr. Landowners info is all public in the plat book/county records... Random guy on public land is pretty much completely anonymous and untrackable.


----------



## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

pescadero said:


> Willing to die?
> 
> How exactly is Mr. Landowner going to have any idea which public land hunter (may not even be a Michigan resident) is sending packages/letters/anonymous tips?
> 
> Mr. Landowners info is all public in the plat book/county records... Random guy on public land is pretty much completely anonymous and untrackable.


Wrong again, think about it for awhile it might come to you or might not.


----------



## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

..


----------



## brewster (May 30, 2010)

augustus0603 said:


> I would get my lasso




I'm working on a large helium dart. I shoot the dart into the deer, inflate it with helium and when it floats up, I pull it back.


----------



## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

November Sunrise said:


> I perceive it as the opposite. A guy with 15 acres of habitat will experience an impact if someone tracks a deer through his property. A guy with 200 acres of habitat will experience little if any impact if someone traipses through 15 of his acres.


We’ll that depends on exactly what 15 acres he’s traipseing on


----------



## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

pescadero said:


> Actually - in the 6' scenario, based on experience... to the best of my knowledge it's NOT on their property.
> 
> IME - probably more than half parcels which border public land are illegally posting beyond their borders... sometimes accidentally, but quite often completely intentionally.


There is no chance a judge agrees with you.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

brewster said:


> I'm working on a large helium dart. I shoot the dart into the deer, inflate it with helium and when it floats up, I pull it back.


I always through a Crossbow made out of a truck spring that would shoot a 4 foot long Bolt (i.e. arrow) would be neat.
It would not be legal here, it must be hand held, I checked.
How about a September Potatoe gun season?


----------



## buckguts1970 (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm pretty sure we won't be worrying about any wounded deer from a certain poster on here getting across the property line. Just saying.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

pescadero said:


> Actually - in the 6' scenario, based on experience... to the best of my knowledge it's NOT on their property.
> 
> IME - probably more than half parcels which border public land are illegally posting beyond their borders... sometimes accidentally, but quite often completely intentionally.


I'm sorry but I find this amusing from you considering you never have experienced getting or recovering a deer yet.
Even though we disagree on everything if you shot a deer and it went on private and we tried in every way possible to get permission but couldn't contact the landowner I'd gladly come and go get the deer for you.
In fact I'd be dancing my way in and drink to a blur celebrating your experience and rite of passage after all the time you have invested!!!


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DirtySteve said:


> There is no chance a judge agrees with you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


That would depend... Are they like some folks posting large segments of public land that isn't theirs? Also, what does a survey say? I might pay for one if it's cheaper than a potential fine.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

birdhntr said:


> I'm sorry but I find this amusing from you considering you never have experienced getting or recovering a deer yet.



Umm... What?

I've shot 19 deer in the last 15 years. I've gotten, and recovered, plenty of deer.

I've never had to cross a property boundary I didn't have permission to hunt on to do so - but I've killed and recovered plenty of deer.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Tom (mich) said:


> Deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> Deer is lying dead 60 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> ...


Being ethical and honest is like being pregnant. You either are, or you aren't. There are no variables. Keep your hands and feet off other peoples property, unless permission has been granted for you to do so. The second you cross that line, you are in the wrong.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

RHRoss said:


> Facebook Sucks!


Michigan-Sportsman is on Facebook.


----------



## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Tom (mich) said:


> Deer is lying dead 6 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> Deer is lying dead 60 feet across the property line. The property owner lives out of state and is unreachable. Do you retrieve the deer or let it rot?
> 
> ...


How about this twist. The deer is lying several feet inside a property line. You are able to throw a rope and lasso the dead deer, then drag it back across the line. You didn't step onto the property but you did retrieve the deer from private property without permission.


----------



## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Petronius said:


> Michigan-Sportsman is on Facebook.


Facebook F-CKING SUCKS, I don’t give a SH-T where it is!!!


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

Petronius said:


> How about this twist. The deer is lying several feet inside a property line. You are able to throw a rope and lasso the dead deer, then drag it back across the line. You didn't step onto the property but you did retrieve the deer from private property without permission.
> 
> View attachment 869309


Hell Pet, you must have a small dog, I just send mine over the line to retrieve!


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Rasputin said:


> Isn’t it common for surveys to be off by 10 feet or more? ............


Not from my experience, but old fence lines going thru a woodlot might be. A survey from 2 years ago showed that our old fencing was up to 12' off in my favor on the south side of my woodlot but within 3' on the north side. Our guess was that the most recent survey was back in the 1890s.

L & O


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

pescadero said:


> Sure...
> 
> I definitely believe that someone who when asked to allow someone to track their deer says no (note -asked with no trespassing) is so unethical they deserve the joy of dealing with whatever horror show a sociopath can deliver within the law.
> 
> ...


How can you screw someone for not allowing you to track a deer on private land? Cant wait to hear this.......


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Mole Hill said:


> Wrong again, think about it for awhile it might come to you or might not.


Cameras have ruined more than one trespassers desires in my hunting neighborhood. 
So have neighbors.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

pescadero said:


> Umm... What?
> 
> I've shot 19 deer in the last 15 years. I've gotten, and recovered, plenty of deer.
> 
> I've never had to cross a property boundary I didn't have permission to hunt on to do so - but I've killed and recovered plenty of deer.


My mistake I thought it was you that said you haven't taken a deer in twenty years.
Maybe I was confused and mixed it up with all the negativity in your posts awhile back

I apologize but I'd still do it!


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Groundsize said:


> How can you screw someone for not allowing you to track a deer on private land? Cant wait to hear this.......


Easy.
My buddies had a 220 acre lease open farm land mostly. . An adjacent land owner had 300 some acres and didn't like the company. He told the farmer so. Farmer was tired of crop damage and liked the extra money. ($800).
One of the guys shot one and it dropped on his road maybe 8 ft from the fence wire and grabbed it.
He had a fit and took it up with the farmer who he pissed of big time.
Then the guy started sitting on his road shooting to turn deer back into his land which didn't work.
Then he started driving up and down it morning and evening during primetime.
Told the farmer and he said shoot everything.
Unlimited doe tags at the time so we started stacking deer.
68 one year and every year we hammered them year after year.
Deer were everywhere at this farm literally. We put blinds everywhere.
Lined up like a European Pheasant stations.
If I ever had a disgruntled neighbor I'd have everybody and their brothers brown and down everything .
I'd fill with kids and young people and clean up.
It would be a circus with nonstop activity.
Build a target range and shoot all the time.
Heck maybe even build a motorcycle track

I know plenty of people that do this when they meet up with the deer nut guy next door.


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## Healyhardwood (Jan 11, 2012)

Geezopeetz! Hasn't anyone here ever seen "The Sandlot" ?


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## MoreHuntingPls (Oct 6, 2018)

pescadero said:


> Sure...
> 
> I definitely believe that someone who when asked to allow someone to track their deer says no (note -asked with no trespassing) is so unethical they deserve the joy of dealing with whatever horror show a sociopath can deliver within the law.
> 
> ...


Not vindictive you say I got friends like you. They are good to have. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

birdhntr said:


> Easy.
> My buddies had a 220 acre lease open farm land mostly. . An adjacent land owner had 300 some acres and didn't like the company. He told the farmer so. Farmer was tired of crop damage and liked the extra money. ($800).
> One of the guys shot one and it dropped on his road maybe 8 ft from the fence wire and grabbed it.
> He had a fit and took it up with the farmer who he pissed of big time.
> ...


Both sides are at fault, sounds like a good way to start a Feud (War).


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

pescadero said:


> Eh... I won't illegally trespass.
> 
> If I can't reach you, and I got a good blood trail - I make take my dog out for an unleahsed walk along your property boundary right where the blood trail is and have to retrieve him though.
> 
> ...


Careful Aaron. Some are way better at that type of stuff.

That's also a good name for the Karen equivalent of the ultra entitled I need to retrieve my deer at all costs public land hunter


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

birdhntr said:


> Easy.
> My buddies had a 220 acre lease open farm land mostly. . An adjacent land owner had 300 some acres and didn't like the company. He told the farmer so. Farmer was tired of crop damage and liked the extra money. ($800).
> One of the guys shot one and it dropped on his road maybe 8 ft from the fence wire and grabbed it.
> He had a fit and took it up with the farmer who he pissed of big time.
> ...


I can see how that causes some serious issues for not allowing to track a deer. I think its a pathetic job if someone wont allow another person to retreive a down deer.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

GIDEON said:


> Being ethical and honest is like being pregnant. You either are, or you aren't. There are no variables. Keep your hands and feet off other peoples property, unless permission has been granted for you to do so. The second you cross that line, you are in the wrong.


I'm entertained by the idea that anyone would think that ethics are never situational and that there are no variables.

Let's say someone in your vehicle needed emergency medical attention in order to stay alive. What constitutes greater ethics - obeying the speed limit or getting the person to the hospital as fast as possible?


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Mole Hill said:


> The scum bag trespassers seem to be the same throughout their life.


I've found repeatedly in life that those who are the loudest in proclaiming their purity are invariably the ones who are the shadiest in private.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> Let's say someone in your vehicle needed emergency medical attention in order to stay alive. What constitutes greater ethics - obeying the speed limit or getting the person to the hospital as fast as possible?


Pull over and call 911. Much higher probability of getting medical attention sooner even if it is from a local fire department. Why is that one person's life more valuable than someone else's on the road?


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

Petronius said:


> How does stepping foot on private land to retrieve a deer hurt anyone?


Sure are opening a can of Worms there pet!

Have a few hits off a joint before driving, not hurting anybody.
Throw that bio degradable paper out on a dirt road, not hurting anybody.
Invade a public building, not hurting anybody.
Burn a few buildings during a protest, not hurting anybody.
It is a never ending subject.

I have already stated on a couple instances of dealing with trespassing on this thread. I am not even going to mention hunting trespassers, last time I mentioned it there were a few challenges.

My next door neighbor is the AH of the neighborhood. We are usually armed on both sides of the line. You announce walking up to your other friendly neighbor or you may be drawn on. Yep, we do not trust this guy or his old man.
If he wounds a Deer and has to come on my land, he will be fast and not when I am around to confront him. A blind eye is sometimes better than aggravation. One of his sons is one of the young punk guys that wounds deer yearly doing Hail Mary shots because he is so good. We have found at least 10 Deer thru the past four years. It is a fine line when do do what you have to do, it is part of life. It does yourself no good thinking to much about it.

Good luck everybody and may your Cap go off after your Trigger is pulled this coming week!


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Groundsize said:


> How can you screw someone for not allowing you to track a deer on private land? Cant wait to hear this.......


How? I listed several ways.

I mean, we all have lots of personal info floating around that is publicly accessible - and lots of people wouldn't like that info spread everywhere around town.

Etc.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

RHRoss said:


> Okay, I agree the ethics may have variables, but the law is the law, and has no variables. If ya trespass for any reason at all ( you violated law).


Variables -

Is it posted.
Is it farmland.
Is the trespasser retrieving a dog.
Is it regular or recreational trespass.
Is it a crime or a civil infraction.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Big Frank 25 said:


> In our grouse woods there is private parcel surounded by state land. The No Huning Signs are posted on the safety zone line. I respect that. But game retreval is another mater!


So he is illegally posting a piece of state land where it is completely legal to bow hunt?

I don't respect him for stealing from the public, and I'd report it to the state.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> Would be hints with these posts, an old link to a video with a name and some posted photos. Narrows potential suspects.


Sure... if I were doing it then posting about it on here.

...but we're talking random public land hunter decides to screw with neighbor land owner situation.

Some guy you don't know comes and asks to retrieve, you say no, then things start happening. Best case you might have a doorbell cam picture.


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## Mole Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

November Sunrise said:


> This pit has been fun to stir.
> 
> Poor Mole Hill still ain't even figured out the topic - he thinks he's fighting the good fight against trespassing advocates.


Your disregard toward the law speaks for itself.


----------



## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

pescadero said:


> Sure... if I were doing it then posting about it on here.
> 
> ...but we're talking random public land hunter decides to screw with neighbor land owner situation.
> 
> Some guy you don't know comes and asks to retrieve, you say no, then things start happening. Best case you might have a doorbell cam picture.


Said guy gets blanket party and has to explain to Leo what he's doing there! Gets his deer though 🤔


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

bowhunter426 said:


> Careful Aaron. Some are way better at that type of stuff.
> 
> That's also a good name for the Karen equivalent of the ultra entitled I need to retrieve my deer at all costs public land hunter


+80% of Michigan Deer Hunters hunt private land.

This is predominantly a private land issue.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

pescadero said:


> That would depend... Are they like some folks posting large segments of public land that isn't theirs? Also, what does a survey say? I might pay for one if it's cheaper than a potential fine.


We are talking about being ticketed for going on private land not some case where a guy posts public land. You wouldnt be going to court over that. Using the defense that I had a 1% chance his property line is off 60' isnt going to cut it


Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

November Sunrise said:


> I'm entertained by the idea that anyone would think that ethics are never situational and that there are no variables.


Ethics are the variable and like most things, are subject to selfish interpretations.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DirtySteve said:


> We are talking about being ticketed for going on private land not some case where a guy posts public land. You wouldnt be going to court over that. Using the defense that I had a 1% chance his property line is off 60' isnt going to cut it
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Huh? 

You can fight that ticket in court, and if you can show you weren't on their private property - that ticket gets dismissed.

I've gone to court over speeding tickets, and because I got ripped off for a couple hundred bucks on a carpet install. 

Why WOULDN'T I go to court if I had evidence that would exonerate me?


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Chessieman said:


> My next door neighbor is the AH of the neighborhood. We are usually armed on both sides of the line. You announce walking up to your other friendly neighbor or you may be drawn on. Yep, we do not trust this guy or his old man.
> If he wounds a Deer and has to come on my land, he will be fast and not when I am around to confront him. A blind eye is sometimes better than aggravation. One of his sons is one of the young punk guys that wounds deer yearly doing Hail Mary shots because he is so good. We have found at least 10 Deer thru the past four years. It is a fine line when do do what you have to do, it is part of life. It does yourself no good thinking to much about it.
> 
> Good luck everybody and may your Cap go off after your Trigger is pulled this coming week!


You're worried about that stuff when You admitted to intentionally gut shooting coyotes and letting their carcasses rot where they fell? Maybe one too many fell on your neighbors property.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

I hope all yous are waiting for legal shooting time to nock an arrow...


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## dirk.diggler (Jan 1, 2012)

i own hunting property, i assume my great neighbors think like i do, if wounded and your/my deer travels over the line, try to contact first, if not available, go get it and keep each other informed.

happened twice to each of us in last 20 years.

public land hunter, not my case, retrieving from private land, if honest, go get your deer off of my property.

common sense, logic, and honesty.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

pescadero said:


> Sure... if I were doing it then posting about it on here.
> 
> ...but we're talking random public land hunter decides to screw with neighbor land owner situation.
> 
> Some guy you don't know comes and asks to retrieve, you say no, then things start happening. Best case you might have a doorbell cam picture.


Nah. We are talking about you mentioning it on a public forum. And you saying these things would be legal. Would they really?


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Mole Hill said:


> Your disregard toward the law speaks for itself.


LOL - you're still completely missing the point.

"I feel more like I do now than I did when I first got here." - Mole Hill


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

mbrewer said:


> Ethics are the variable and like most things, are subject to selfish interpretations.


Yes ethics are the variable, and selfish interpretations are what permit a person to be blind to their hypocrisy.


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## Ieatshrooms (Sep 19, 2019)

November Sunrise said:


> Yes ethics are the variable, and selfish interpretations are what permit a person to be blind to their hypocrisy.


Give me one example of something a person does that isn't selfish. You can't unfish a fish.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Donating cash comes to mind.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> I'm entertained by the idea that anyone would think that ethics are never situational and that there are no variables.
> 
> Let's say someone in your vehicle needed emergency medical attention in order to stay alive. What constitutes greater ethics - obeying the speed limit or getting the person to the hospital as fast as possible?


I was under the impression that we were discussing recreational trespass. More to the point, trespassing to retrieve a possibly dead or dying animal. Situational parameters do influence the actions, reactions of a person. But I fail to see how someone can compare recreational trespass, to life saving measures.
,


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Ieatshrooms said:


> Give me one example of something a person does that isn't selfish. You can't unfish a fish.


Many actions in life can be done for selfish or unselfish reasons. Interestingly enough it can be difficult even for the person performing the action to understand their own motives, let alone the motives of others.


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## wannabeup (Aug 16, 2006)

mbrewer said:


> Group W for you.


it's just a half a mile from the railroad track


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## jiggin is livin (Jan 7, 2011)

Tom (mich) said:


> You ignored the question at the end and focused on the fly crap instead. What's your limit? How far does your dead deer need to be on someone else's property before you trespass?


Honestly, if I can see my deer, I am probably going to grab it and drag it back to my property and gut it. I would tell the owners if I ever had the chance or got in contact with them. I would expect the same in return. 

In my personal case, I own 31ac, I am the poor dude in my hood. Everyone else is 40+ up to 240 wooded, and then a mess of Ag fields in various sizes. My land is bordered by two roads and two fields, corner lot. If I can see my deer laying in the field, I am just going to go ahead and grab it. If it is in the middle, I would go ask the owner of the one field, since they are neighbors. The other owner I have tried to get ahold of, lives downstate, no family around, moved after parents died, prolly never coming back. Haven't caught the farmer there yet to talk to him, but I will. 

I hope I never have to, but if it was right there, I would grab it.

If it crosses the road, I know those owners, so I would ask and they would help me I am sure.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

GIDEON said:


> I was under the impression that we were discussing recreational trespass. More to the point, trespassing to retrieve a possibly dead or dying animal. Situational parameters do influence the actions, reactions of a person. But I fail to see how someone can compare recreational trespass, to life saving measures.
> ,


Seems you are making his point. Situational.


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## Ieatshrooms (Sep 19, 2019)

sureshot006 said:


> Donating cash comes to mind.


To what cause? One that the donator feels is worthy?


----------



## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

RHRoss said:


> I think a little respect for other people’s property rights goes a long way, and trespassing is illegal, so there is a respect for the law, I think it’s difficult when having to deal with a pain in the ass landowner, but it is what is, and it’s hard to accept. With that said, I also have respect for the animal and needlessly suffering sucks, it’s a tough deal and at times there’s nothing ya can do but accept the situation as it is.


Have you ever stopped to think of what the "PAIN IN THE ASS" land owners have to contend with?


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Ieatshrooms said:


> To what cause? One that the donator feels is worthy?


Is it relevant?

Let's say one that doesn't feel like a scam.


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

GIDEON said:


> I was under the impression that we were discussing recreational trespass. More to the point, trespassing to retrieve a possibly dead or dying animal. Situational parameters do influence the actions, reactions of a person. But I fail to see how someone can compare recreational trespass, to life saving measures.
> ,


Situational parameters apply everywhere in life, including taking the life of animal and how diligent a person is in making use of the kill. 

Absentee unreachable landowner with a deer laying dead on his side of the fence. Some think it's more ethical to honor the landowner by letting the deer go to waste. Some think it's more ethical to honor the animal by retrieving it and utilizing it for food. 

The people on this thread who have been confused by the discussion (why does Mole Hill come to mind again?) are the ones who pretend that ethics are solved by what the law says, even though in many other areas of life they're comfortable breaking the law, thus proving that laws are not their only standard of ethics.


----------



## Ieatshrooms (Sep 19, 2019)

sureshot006 said:


> Is it relevant?
> 
> Let's say one that doesn't feel like a scam.


It's incredibly relevant, because it's my point. The donator picks a cause to donate to, so it's a selfish motive. They are picking a cause that THEY deem worthy of receiving money. Every single thing people do is motivated by self, no matter how altruistic they think it is. Like I said, you can't make a fish an unfish. If the world understood that evil would disappear. 

A guy wants to selfishly track a deer on my land. I want to selfishly say no. However it's in my best interest to help him out, in case I need help in the future. Being altruistic is selfish in the end, it only helps yourself the most.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

mbrewer said:


> You're worried about that stuff when You admitted to intentionally gut shooting coyotes and letting their carcasses rot where they fell? Maybe one too many fell on your neighbors property.


Three days into the season took out another one. Ran through the one neighbors property to the other one down the road that I keep in contact with. He was out that morning and thought he had a Deer coming through and here was a slower moving Yote that he saw it was hit. It went down a steep valley of his and died on the bottom. He has shot two Yotes this year already feeding on it. He has a good pile going!


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Ieatshrooms said:


> It's incredibly relevant, because it's my point. The donator picks a cause to donate to, so it's a selfish motive. They are picking a cause that THEY deem worthy of receiving money. Every single thing people do is motivated by self, no matter how altruistic they think it is. Like I said, you can't make a fish an unfish. If the world understood that evil would disappear.


"Every single thing motivated by self" is a massive stretch - requires a highly jaded view of why people sacrifice for others in order to arrive at that conclusion. 

In some respects I like your assertion of you can't make a fish an unfish but if completely true it disproves your assertion of evil being able to disappear.


----------



## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

sureshot006 said:


> Seems you are making his point. Situational.


It would seem so, but then again the original discussion pertained to recreational trespass. So in that regard my statements stand.


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Neighboring landowner to my hunting property texted this morning. Buck headed into my property after hit.
Told him he's welcome to pursue and to holler if he needs moral support on site.
I'll be hunting in the afternoon.


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## Ieatshrooms (Sep 19, 2019)

November Sunrise said:


> "Every single thing motivated by self" is a massive stretch - requires a highly jaded view of why people sacrifice for others in order to arrive at that conclusion.
> 
> In some respects I like your assertion of you can't make a fish an unfish but if completely true it disproves your assertion of evil being able to disappear.


Unless evil was just an illusion to begin with. I'll spare everyone the philosophical debate in a thread about tracking deer that was resolved pages ago.


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## steelhead281 (Feb 1, 2007)

GIDEON said:


> Considering how well you know me, that is a moronic statement. You have no idea what property owners have to contend with. Put up NO TRESSPASSING signs, only to have them tore down and threw on the ground. Went back and put one at ground level, 15 yards over one 12 ft up in a tree, alternated them around my property like this. Many were still torn down, others used as targets. One guy actually took a sign down and took a dump on it. Hell, one guy even became very confrontational, cussed me out and tried to kick me off of my own property. Got home from northern Mich. yesterday afternoon, my son went out to change batteries in his trail cam, which is well within his property lines, and there sits a pop-up blind, about 30ft from his tree stand.
> 
> If a person owns Acreage, with a home on it, then that Acreage is his yard. Not some wacko's recreation area. If a man owns Acreage, with out a home, then that is his recreation area, an area that he bought, he pays taxes on, he pays insurance on, he maintains. By what stretch of the imagination does some fool feel he is entitled to avail himself the use of it. What type of a warped mind functions that way.
> 
> ...



Hmmmm, I agree completely, but can I ask a question? Your 3 year old wandered onto my property and you know I have a protective guard dog....do you honor my right to privacy or rescue your child from harm? Your friendly golden doodle wanders onto my property and you know I have set leghold traps for coyotes....do you honor my right to privacy or make a judgement call to trespass. The river on your left is a raging rapids and deep water that can not be waded, the downed trees block your path forward. Do you get out of the river on to private property to bypass the obstacle even though there are no trespassing signs posted or do you risk the rapids. Faced with these problems, would you respect the landowners rights or make another choice? Is there any room for gracious acceptance given the circumstances?


----------



## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> Situational parameters apply everywhere in life, including taking the life of animal and how diligent a person is in making use of the kill.
> 
> Absentee unreachable landowner with a deer laying dead on his side of the fence. Some think it's more ethical to honor the landowner by letting the deer go to waste. Some think it's more ethical to honor the animal by retrieving it and utilizing it for food.
> 
> The people on this thread who have been confused by the discussion (why does Mole Hill come to mind again?) are the ones who pretend that ethics are solved by what the law says, even though in many other areas of life they're comfortable breaking the law, thus proving that laws are not their only standard of ethics.


And the situation we started discussing was recreational trespass. Else where on this site a person stated he would hunt as close to the fence as he could, and get them traveling to and from private property. Good chance the deer will go back from where it came, how should this scenario play out?


----------



## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

steelhead281 said:


> Hmmmm, I agree completely, but can I ask a question? Your 3 year old wandered onto my property and you know I have a protective guard dog....do you honor my right to privacy or rescue your child from harm? Your friendly golden doodle wanders onto my property and you know I have set leghold traps for coyotes....do you honor my right to privacy or make a judgement call to trespass. The river on your left is a raging rapids and deep water that can not be waded, the downed trees block your path forward. Do you get out of the river on to private property to bypass the obstacle even though there are no trespassing signs posted or do you risk the rapids. Faced with these problems, would you respect the landowners rights or make another choice? Is there any room for gracious acceptance given the circumstances?


Trespass or recreational trespass, you make the call. All of your examples differ greatly from the intent of the original discussion.


----------



## Martin Looker (Jul 16, 2015)

This thread has turned into another pissin match.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

GIDEON said:


> And the situation we started discussing was recreational trespass. Else where on this site a person stated he would hunt as close to the fence as he could, and get them traveling to and from private property. Good chance the deer will go back from where it came, how should this scenario play out?


I've found that the most ethical way to handle fence sitters is to castrate them. Once the word gets out to the rest of the gang it appears to diminish interest in hunting my borders.


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Martin Looker said:


> This thread has turned into another pissin match.


Very insightful. Are you new to the internet?


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

triplelunger said:


> Are public land line sitters unethical? Or are people who buy land surrounded by public land just dumb?


Yes.


----------



## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

triplelunger said:


> Are public land line sitters unethical? Or are people who buy land surrounded by public land just dumb?


Eh, it has its pluses and minuses. On the plus side, I'm the only guy within a square mile with a food plot and the right to cut down trees and generally manipulate the property in the way I see fit. I can hunt the surrounding public and don't have to worry at all about tracking permission. There's also tons of hiking trails, snowmobile trails, and ATV trails all around me that I can hop right on. Dealing with the public land hunters is a minor inconvenience. 90% of them are good guys.

Moreover, you've got many of the same problems on private. We used to own a farm in Leelanau County where there is no public. Almost got shot by an 85 year-old hunter who shot over the road at my treestand less than 50 yards from the road separating our properties. They leased that farm for about a decade. Tons of trespassing on that farm too, especially by mushroom hunters.


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## mcfish (Jan 24, 2010)

TriggerDiscipline said:


> Yup, pescadero fails to consider that there are negative externalities to abetting this poor behavior. You help one slob one year, and guess who's going to show up next deer season, sitting his fat drunk @$$ on a five gallon bucket 5 yards from your line...


The problem with Pescy and likeminded posters is they think trespassing is a rare occurrence. 

I've had trespassers that see the old farmstead and start combing through the ruins with metal detectors looking for treasures. "I'm not hurting anything" was the response.

I've had trespassers use plastic surveyors tape to mark blood. Clean up trash on YOUR property once and you'll sing a different tune.

I've given out permission to track (with instructions on how), only to find out that they went in with a dog that had no idea what it was doing, and there were a group of them and not one or two as told. 

I've been sitting having breakfast at a local business and overheard someone describe my property to a T while they're talking about tracking a buck. 

If you're wondering why some of us LANDOWNERS are so salty, it's because we're sick of people who have no respect for another person's belongings.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

mcfish said:


> The problem with Pescy and likeminded posters is they think trespassing is a rare occurrence.


No, I just don't think the frequency of trespassing has any bearing at all on the ethical question of retrieving a deer.

...and rare? Nah - I got neighbor kids running across my lakefront property on the regular. They go from the house on my north to the house 3 houses to my south, right across me and the other 2 houses yards. Probably 10-15 times a day in the summer.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Mushrooms are in a class of their own. Forget about deer lmao


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## mcfish (Jan 24, 2010)

pescadero said:


> No, I just don't think the frequency of trespassing has any bearing at all on the ethical question of retrieving a deer.
> 
> ...and rare? Nah - I got neighbor kids running across my lakefront property on the regular. They go from the house on my north to the house 3 houses to my south, right across me and the other 2 houses yards. Probably 10-15 times a day in the summer.


A lot and acreage are apples and oranges, but you know that.


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## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

S


triplelunger said:


> Are public land line sitters unethical? Or are people who buy land surrounded by public land just dumb?


Sometimes it comes to you. Purchased by counties and opened to dumbfucery happens!


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## anagranite (Oct 23, 2010)

pescadero said:


> No, I just don't think the frequency of trespassing has any bearing at all on the ethical question of retrieving a deer.
> 
> ...and rare? Nah - I got neighbor kids running across my lakefront property on the regular. They go from the house on my north to the house 3 houses to my south, right across me and the other 2 houses yards. Probably 10-15 times a day in the summer.


It would probably be different if they ran across some freshly poured concrete or freshly painted deck each time you tried to improve the lakefront property.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Waif said:


> Putting yourself in a position of having to recover a deer off private without prior permission is ethical?
> Don't blame the landowner for your failure to anchor an animal.
> You created the problem.
> 
> My parakeet escapes and flies your direction are you going to object to my searching your house for it?


Searching my House for a parakeet lol, Come to my house with foolishness like that, the parakeet will be the least of your problems


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

RHRoss said:


> Searching my House for a parakeet lol, Come to my house with foolishness like that, the parakeet will be the least of your problems


E
But it went your way!


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

pescadero said:


> It's never wrong to do the right thing, no matter who may benefit from it.
> 
> Sometimes behaving ethically has a cost.


Unless the”right thing” is illegal


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## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

pescadero said:


> It's never wrong to do the right thing, no matter who may benefit from it.
> 
> Sometimes behaving ethically has a cost.


For a guy that typically subscribes to positions that are objective and quantifiable, this is the grayest thing you've ever said. Are you drinking at work?


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Tom (mich) said:


> For a guy that typically subscribes to positions that are objective and quantifiable, this is the grayest thing you've ever said. Are you drinking at work?


Gummy’s


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

RHRoss said:


> Unless the”right thing” is illegal


No, it's absolutely right to do the right thing even if it is illegal. 
It's also right to accept the consequences of those actions.
That is the very foundation of civil disobedience.


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## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

RHRoss said:


> Gummy’s


Next we'll hear "Today is the first day of the rest of your life".

"It's never wrong to do the right thing" ought to be a bumper sticker. Put it next to the "coexist" one.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

pescadero said:


> No, it's absolutely right to do the right thing even if it is illegal.
> It's also right to accept the consequences of those actions.
> That is the very foundation of civil disobedience.


I can dig it


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## vsmorgantown (Jan 16, 2012)

pescadero said:


> Eh... I won't illegally trespass.
> 
> If I can't reach you, and I got a good blood trail - I make take my dog out for an unleahsed walk along your property boundary right where the blood trail is and have to retrieve him though.
> 
> ...


Don’t forget the boiling pet rabbit in the pot on the stove Glenn Close.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Tom (mich) said:


> For a guy that typically subscribes to positions that are objective and quantifiable, this is the grayest thing you've ever said. Are you drinking at work?


Eh... all morals/ethics are 100% subjective, 100% personal, and 100% created by the mind of the person in question.

It's just the nature of holding any moral/ethical position on any subject.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

pescadero said:


> No, it's absolutely right to do the right thing even if it is illegal.
> It's also right to accept the consequences of those actions.
> That is the very foundation of civil disobedience.


Illegal is illegal no matter how it’s justified, and as far as “civil disobedience “ we need a whole lot of it in this country ASAP


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

RHRoss said:


> Illegal is illegal no matter how it’s justified, and as far as “civil disobedience “ we need a whole lot of it in this country ASAP


Illegal is illegal no matter how it’s justified, but that has no bearing at all on right and wrong.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

pescadero said:


> Illegal is illegal no matter how it’s justified, but that has no bearing at all on right and wrong.


We don’t get to choose the “right and wrong “ of the Laws, and as far as the Judicial System goes, a violation of the law is wrong.


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## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

pescadero said:


> Eh... all morals/ethics are 100% subjective, 100% personal, and 100% created by the mind of the person in question.
> 
> It's just the nature of holding any moral/ethical position on any subject.


eh, no ****e sherlock. No one stated otherwise. Be prepared for the MS membership to now remind you of this gem every single time you criticize or counter someone for stating their "100% subjective, 100% personal..." opinions.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

RHRoss said:


> We don’t get to choose the “right and wrong “ of the Laws, and as far as the Judicial System goes, a violation of the law is wrong.


And again, I’m not arguing the ethics portion of recovering a wounded animal, I agree all efforts should be put forth to do so, I’m arguing what’s legal and what’s illegal.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

RHRoss said:


> We don’t get to choose the “right and wrong “ of the Laws, and as far as the Judicial System goes, a violation of the law is wrong.


No, a violation of the law is ILLEGAL.

Illegal does not equal wrong.

There is no "right" and "wrong" of the law, there are "legal" and "illegal" - and we really shouldn't conflate the two (unless your personal ethical system really believes any violation of the law is a moral wrong).


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Tom (mich) said:


> eh, no ****e sherlock. No one stated otherwise. Be prepared for the MS membership to now remind you of this gem every single time you criticize or counter someone for stating their "100% subjective, 100% personal..." opinions.


Now you gotta watch for those free gay porn subscriptions and pregnancy tests in the mail.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Tom (mich) said:


> eh, no ****e sherlock. No one stated otherwise. Be prepared for the MS membership to now remind you of this gem every single time you criticize or counter someone for stating their "100% subjective, 100% personal..." opinions.


Why in the world can't you criticize subjective personal choice?

When I criticize subjective personal choice, I'm not claiming it is objectively incorrect... I'm generally claiming it's morally/ethically wrong... and I'm fully aware that my ethics are merely my opinion, just like chocolate ice cream being better than vanilla.


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## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> Mushrooms are in a class of their own. Forget about deer lmao


Some guys hate hippies. Some guys hate disco. I hate morel hunters.


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## buckguts1970 (Dec 7, 2012)

Sent from my SM-G981V using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

pescadero said:


> No, a violation of the law is ILLEGAL.
> 
> Illegal does not equal wrong.
> 
> There is no "right" and "wrong" of the law, there are "legal" and "illegal" - and we really shouldn't conflate the two (unless your personal ethical system really believes any violation of the law is a moral wrong).


I believe I’ve made it clear exactly what you just said, I can dig it. As far as morals and the Law, I don’t really have the luxury of choice, the family I come from there is the law and the law breaker, no in betweens. And I fully agree with both sides of this discussion (which is weird). But for me the legalities is where I lean. I hate any animals suffering, and I’ll give an example: that asacp commercial on tv makes me turn the channel so I don’t have to look, that life alert commercial ( where the old lady falls down the stairs) makes me laugh. I’m kind and soft for all animals, but meaner than a snake with humans!!!


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

RHRoss said:


> I believe I’ve made it clear exactly what you just said, I can dig it. As far as morals and the Law, I don’t really have the luxury of choice, the family I come from there is the law and the law breaker, no in betweens.



Of course you have the luxury of choice - you can choose to have different morals from your family. It's not genetic. Every individual chooses their own morals.

...and if there is no on betweens, 100% of adults fall in the law breaker category. Even every cop I've ever known regularly breaks the law.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Bucman said:


> i think not


The man is entitled to his own opinion. If he says he's a dick wad he's a dick wad.

#LGBQTDW


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

pescadero said:


> Of course you have the luxury of choice - you can choose to have different morals from your family. It's not genetic. Every individual chooses their own morals.
> 
> ...and if there is no on betweens, 100% of adults fall in the law breaker category. Even every cop I've ever known regularly breaks the law.


We are a large Irish Cop Family, I would never do anything to hurt my family’s reputation in Law Enforcement. We are all ex military, combat vets, (dating back to both grandfathers) some retired and became LEOs, my grandfather was Georgia State police with the bureau of investigation and then head security for the governor, my father retired as chief, my brother is assistant chief and will be chief , my uncle, 2 cousins and another brother all are retired military and now work for THE private security force that deals with US Foreign embassies and on and on, I’m sure you get the drift.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

pescadero said:


> Of course you have the luxury of choice - you can choose to have different morals from your family. It's not genetic. Every individual chooses their own morals.
> 
> ...and if there is no on betweens, 100% of adults fall in the law breaker category. Even every cop I've ever known regularly breaks the law.


And I do agree with the moral part of this discussion, and also know plenty of immoral LEO’s , past and present, they are regular people also and have regular people faults at times.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

RHRoss said:


> And I do agree with the moral part of this discussion, and also know plenty of immoral LEO’s , past and present, they are regular people also and have regular people faults at times.


LEOs are regular people, and largely commit crimes just as often as the general public. Several per day for most people.

They don't have regular people faults at times, they ARE regular people who have regular people faults all the time just like all other regular people.

Now, LEO crimes do tend to trend differently (much higher rates of domestic violence, much lower rates of theft, etc.)


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

triplelunger said:


> Are public land line sitters unethical? Or are people who buy land surrounded by public land just dumb?


Both I guess.
one might question that when someone buys private surrounded by public that they are entitled to a secondary boundary that in essence increases there acreage .
When a deer is shot it has 360 degrees to run but typically the run back the way they came from and the next move is typically the way they were going.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

pescadero said:


> LEOs are regular people, and largely commit crimes just as often as the general public. Several per day for most people.
> 
> They don't have regular people faults at times, they ARE regular people who have regular people faults all the time just like all other regular people.
> 
> Now, LEO crimes do tend to trend differently (much higher rates of domestic violence, much lower rates of theft, etc.)


We’ll I wouldn’t say largely, but do agree some do.


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## RoosterCogburn (Jan 11, 2019)

birdhntr said:


> Easy.
> My buddies had a 220 acre lease open farm land mostly. . An adjacent land owner had 300 some acres and didn't like the company. He told the farmer so. Farmer was tired of crop damage and liked the extra money. ($800).
> One of the guys shot one and it dropped on his road maybe 8 ft from the fence wire and grabbed it.
> He had a fit and took it up with the farmer who he pissed of big time.
> ...


Interfering with the quiet enjoyment during hunting is illegal sir. Live in peace with your neighbors but sleep with one eye open


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## Sharkbait11 (Apr 7, 2017)

pescadero said:


> Sure...
> 
> I definitely believe that someone who when asked to allow someone to track their deer says no (note -asked with no trespassing) is so unethical they deserve the joy of dealing with whatever horror show a sociopath can deliver within the law.
> 
> ...


Dang dude...my neighbor stiffed me (intentionally) on building a fence this year Im out over 5k he was supposed to pitch in. Now we are going to be petty with him and call the Township for every little thing. He scammed me and our other neighbor, I cussed him out and he knew he scammed both neighbors for a new fence he doesn't have to pay for (we built it on our property line instead). But I like your thinking, maybe a bit vindictive though but people who are asses got it coming to them.
I'm think with the 6 inches I have between his property line and my new fence Im going to plant that poison ivy garden Ive always been dreaming of (its a new house and we paid to have it surveyed with metal markers). Or maybe the day he goes to sell the house Ill paint a mural of some big veiney dicks on my fence that faces his property. Maybe we can put our heads together about this one day, beers on me 😁😁😁


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## RoosterCogburn (Jan 11, 2019)

pescadero said:


> It's never wrong to do the right thing, no matter who may benefit from it.
> 
> Sometimes behaving ethically has a cost.


I like that quote. What I will say is very irritating is the need to track in your sweet spot at prime times during archery rut and first few days of guns. Being a nice guy can scew your hunt. I understand both sides of this issue pretty well


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## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

Pescie, you must be trolling us in this thread. They banned Johnny English and now you’re getting bored, so you rile us up defending trespassing, equating breaking the law to get a deer with civil disobedience. I usually consider you a voice of reason in a sea of nuttery, but your stance here is hard to believe. Maybe you have another deer season going bad so now you’re lashing out at landowners. Very strange that you would take the same position as the local toothless ne’erdowells. Sad, bigly sad.

From this:







To this:


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

-db- said:


> I think if we're going to be honest we need to know what kind of deer we're talking about. I suspect guys' opinions, from either side of the line, on the matter might change in the case of, say, a Booner compared to an average doe or a kid's first buck compared to just another freezer filler.


Wait a second. Are you suggesting that all the purists may not be as pure as they claim to be, depending on circumstance? Never thought of it that way before but you may be right.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

November Sunrise said:


> Wait a second. Are you suggesting that all the purists may not be as pure as they claim to be, depending on circumstance? Never thought of it that way before but you may be right.


The only real question pertaining to the deer is weight. If it's a larger deer, I'll be tempted to leave the gut pile behind. Smaller and I'm just as apt to drag it back over the line first.


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## sparky18181 (Apr 17, 2012)

birdhntr said:


> Just buy a piece neighboring me.
> If a deer steps under the wire onto your land shoot it then when it runs a 150 yards and drops on my piece come get it and I will help. Just wait it out if it's prime time please!


Exactly how I feel. This thread has been going on way to long.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> Wait a second. Are you suggesting that all the purists may not be as pure as they claim to be, depending on circumstance? Never thought of it that way before but you may be right.


I don't want to have a huge controversy(Mitch) around the large buck I am going too shoot tomorrow so if it crosses a property line I am going to get signed affidavits from the owners showing I have permission to recover.

Expect a story in tomorrow's LFTS.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

sparky18181 said:


> Exactly how I feel. This thread has been going on way to long.


Too much posting going on around here!!


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

November Sunrise said:


> Too much posting going on around here!!


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## mcfish (Jan 24, 2010)

You people are the problem!!! Too much posting!


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)




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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

brewster said:


> They'd arrest pescadero just for having to listen to his long, blathering, ignorant excuse.


Deploying taser!


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

mbrewer said:


> Deploying taser!


Say hello to Dr.Watts!


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Mi Friend said:


> I have 120 acres with food plots. I am mostly surrounded by State Land. So the neighbors who I know got into setting up on the property line, both gun and bow. I do mean the property line, like 15 feet off looking in. I finally had to tell them they will no longer be able to track wounded deer on my property. Prior I will give them permission and track the deer with them. After about 10 wounded deer on the property, some never found till the crows got them, I said enough. Word go out and now only a few hunting close to the property and not one wounded deer in the past 2 years. Sometime you need to "stand your ground".


Any deer not kilt by the tag holder that made the shot and not retrieved by them belong to the crows.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Well after are efforts to contact neighboring parcels where I did go look for a deer I received a response from one on (Face book)
They live in CA.
His response was are you asking permission to hunt or to look for a deer. Either way have at it just don't leave nothing behind.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

birdhntr said:


> Well after are efforts to contact neighboring parcels where I did go look for a deer I received a response from one on (Face book)
> They live in CA.
> His response was are you asking permission to hunt or to look for a deer. Either way have at it just don't leave nothing behind.


We’ll then, that’s awesome, now ya have permission to do both.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

RHRoss said:


> We’ll then, that’s awesome, now ya have permission to do both.


This piece is is connected to ours parallel to the length not width to boot.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

birdhntr said:


> This piece is is connected to ours parallel to the length not width to boot.


So you've had the benefits for a long time? Essentially an unmolested "sanctuary" with exception to trespassers?


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

@birdhntr it kind of sounds like an opportunity to expand your property... I know, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free... but seems if you like the area it might be a good idea to plant a seed that you may be interested in buying it.


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## vsmorgantown (Jan 16, 2012)

mcfish said:


> You people are the problem!!! Too much posting!


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

sureshot006 said:


> So you've had the benefits for a long time? Essentially an unmolested "sanctuary" with exception to trespassers?


Actually have a long history with that piece.( year1998)
The piece was 65 acres 
My parents bought the house with 45.
The twenty was split and under land contract with a small house on it.
Brian let me do whatever I wanted on it. Then he fell behind and it reverted back to the original owner of my parents place. A new person named Alan took a land contract in it and he didn't let us hunt it but we could go get deer.
Then Alan defaulted and it reverted again.
Alan had a large sum put down and it worked out where he got the house.
He sold it and it was moved.
Then I could hunt it again because the original owner of my parents place had it again.
He built a small ranch on the foundation. He then passed away shortly after.
The people who own it are in CA and are daughter/son in law.
The last name was not common so I reached out through Facebook and it worked.
It's full of grouse just like my mom's so that is great!!


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

birdhntr said:


> This piece is is connected to ours parallel to the length not width to boot.


Still gotta feel better that ya got the okay


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

sureshot006 said:


> @birdhntr it kind of sounds like an opportunity to expand your property... I know, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free... but seems if you like the area it might be a good idea to plant a seed that you may be interested in buying it.


It's complex.
First the front of it had a house he built and sold also with a few acres.
One driveway to both but the house in the front by the road doesn't have an easement. The yard and road to the California couples house is over grown and impassable now that it's been vacant a long time.
Stagnant home and overgrown,higher tax with structure,and likely they value it for more than it is worth.
Then not that we talk about but I have two siblings so eventually the time will come and that's unpredictable going forward.
If it was the whole twenty without the house it would be a no brainier.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

RHRoss said:


> Still gotta feel better that ya got the okay


Sure but considering I couldn't contact them at the time and didn't get an immediate response I went and looked for a deer anyhow but we bumped it.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

birdhntr said:


> It's complex.
> First the front of it had a house he built and sold also with a few acres.
> One driveway to both but the house in the front by the road doesn't have an easement. The yard and road to the California couples house is over grown and impassable now that it's been vacant a long time.
> Stagnant home and overgrown,higher tax with structure,and likely they value it for more than it is worth.
> ...


If they wanted to just get out quickly it might be cheaper than you think. But if it's not worth it to you, it's not worth it.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

sureshot006 said:


> If they wanted to just get out quickly it might be cheaper than you think. But if it's not worth it to you, it's not worth it.


I added a layout picture. That explains the down side


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## 2stix-and-a-string (Feb 11, 2020)

God owns all the land, we just pay the taxes on it.


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