# Fair Hooking



## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

When did I say anything about what is better?.. I said they'll take flies & well at that! I own 2 Drift Baots set up for pullin plugs, 12 or so plug rods & reels, 6 or so spoon & spinner rods & reels, & a few drift rods & reels (no fly casting Eq.) 100 or so plugs on hand, a factory of spoons & spinners and enough yarn & road kill for a life time. I would hate to limit my versatility by utilizing only one method when conditions may favor another! Next to hardware my favorite is yarn, but not as an egg pattern. I would never let what someone says offend me... especially be offended for something that was not even said... pick your head up, it's alright to fish hardware... I love too!


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

thousandcasts said:


> As for my lack of knowledge, tell you what--I'll take what I've forgotten about salmon and steelhead fishing, you take what you think you know and then get back to me at the end of the year and we'll compare numbers. :cwm27:
> 
> 
> 
> .


Actually, that statement perfectly exemplifies Bull Market's last post. 

Some people want to put a lot of fish in the box "we'll compare numbers." Some people want to experience this:

I fish because I love to. Because I love the environs where trout are found, which are invariably beautiful, and hate the environs where crowds of people are found, which are invariably ugly. Because of all the television commercials, cocktail parties, and assorted social posturing I thus escape. Because in a world where most men seem to spend their lives doing what they hate, my fishing is at once an endless source of delight and an act of small rebellion. Because trout do not lie or cheat and cannot be bought or bribed, or impressed by power, but respond only to quietude and humility, and endless patience. Because I suspect that men are going this way for the last time and I for one don't want to waste the trip. Because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters. Because in the woods I can find solitude without loneliness. ... And finally, not because I regard fishing as being so terribly important, but because I suspect that so many of the other concerns of men are equally unimportant and not nearly so much fun. 
&#8213; Robert Traver


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

With the fly line getting crushed by the 25 mph wind and the guide and I intent on the fly landing just ahead of the bonefish...this is a compelling photo of what makes fly fishing so great & visceral.

There's little poetic about throwing a Mr. Twisher jig with mono with a shrimp tail.


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## woolybug25 (Aug 9, 2011)

thousandcasts said:


> Usually we're not talking about the rest of the fly fishing world are we? 99% of the time we're talking about the whole salmon and steelhead C & D game...which I could really care less about, to be honest.


No, that's what YOU are talking about. The original poster wanted to know more about catching fish the right way on a fly rod. Then as usual, you pop in with your pompous "fly fishing is stupid" bs, when you don't actually know anything about fly fishing, only chuck and ducking. So we were in fact not talking about C&D, we were talking about real fly fishing, which you are clueless about.



thousandcasts said:


> As for my lack of knowledge, tell you what--I'll take what I've forgotten about salmon and steelhead fishing, you take what you think you know and then get back to me at the end of the year and we'll compare numbers. :cwm27:


As soon as I want to know about all of the _technical aspects_ of floating spawn bags and pulling plugs, I will know who to contact. If you aren't available, I will go down to Berrien Springs and ask the first teenager dressed in camo and get similar info. Until then, quit trying to inform a poster looking to learn more about fly fishing on why it's inferior to what you do. Especially considering the fact that you don't know the first thing about real fly fishing, only chuck and duck.


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

You don't see images like this in the Zebco catalog. :lol:


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

woolybug25 said:


> No, that's what YOU are talking about. The original poster wanted to know more about catching fish the right way on a fly rod. Then as usual, you pop in with your pompous "fly fishing is stupid" bs, when you don't actually know anything about fly fishing, only chuck and ducking. So we were in fact not talking about C&D, we were talking about real fly fishing, which you are clueless about.
> 
> 
> 
> As soon as I want to know about all of the _technical aspects_ of floating spawn bags and pulling plugs, I will know who to contact. If you aren't available, I will go down to Berrien Springs and ask the first teenager dressed in camo and get similar info. Until then, quit trying to inform a poster looking to learn more about fly fishing on why it's inferior to what you do. Especially considering the fact that you don't know the first thing about real fly fishing, only chuck and duck.


 Well said!


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## johnny5alive (Jun 11, 2011)

Spoon ripped across the river and fish hooked near the mouth...it slammed it!!!!! totally legal.

Salmon with fly deep in the mouth.......Snagger!!!! you lined that fish!!!!

No fish is ever snagged on spawn....except every other one at Allegan or Tippy or on M.O.O.D's tv show last year......to which they claimed "he was legal the hook mustve come out in the net even though the fish came in backwards the whole way.


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## TDI (Dec 29, 2008)

> Then as usual, you pop in with your pompous "fly fishing is stupid" bs, when you don't actually know anything about fly fishing, *only chuck and ducking.*



here is proof to back that statement up.... :lol:


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

TDI said:


> here is proof to back that statement up.... :lol:


THAT 

WAS

AWESOME.



:lol:


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

As opposed to the raking gravel technique described by Steve Hutchins in the link several posts above, this is a jack king salmon caught in Alaska in 4 feet of water with a shooting head and swinging the fly through the water.

The fly is a pink "capital punishment" spey type fly that pi$$ed off the jacks in that deep run. We were fishing a 200 yard wide river and the fish weren't visible. It took about 5 minutes to land this little 3 pounder.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

woolybug25 said:


> No, that's what YOU are talking about. The original poster wanted to know more about catching fish the right way on a fly rod. Then as usual, you pop in with your pompous "fly fishing is stupid" bs, when you don't actually know anything about fly fishing, only chuck and ducking. So we were in fact not talking about C&D, we were talking about real fly fishing, which you are clueless about.
> 
> 
> 
> As soon as I want to know about all of the _technical aspects_ of floating spawn bags and pulling plugs, I will know who to contact. If you aren't available, I will go down to Berrien Springs and ask the first teenager dressed in camo and get similar info. Until then, quit trying to inform a poster looking to learn more about fly fishing on why it's inferior to what you do. Especially considering the fact that you don't know the first thing about real fly fishing, only chuck and duck.


Seriously? Dude...you act like a miserable little internet troll who seems to get into it with someone in just about every thread you post in. You seem to be throwing a lot of stuff out that you might think you know, but in fact you couldn't be more wrong about what I might know or not know. Like I said, I'll take what I've forgotten...

Tell you what genius, when you figure out how to not only read, but also understand what is being said, please find where I said anything in this thread about fly fishing being "stupid" or anything in that regard. 

I'll wait...

But hey, since you seem to fish the same areas I do and think you know me, next time you see me introduce yourself...say "Hi!" Don't be shy!


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

TDI said:


> here is proof to back that statement up.... :lol:


Considering that article has been on here for almost ten years and was written by someone who was a lot more niave at the time, I can't believe no one has brought that up and tried to use that against me before! How original! 

Uh...wait a minute...


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## LuckyChucky (Mar 28, 2005)

here is the thing Ive noticed about many fly fisherman,they think that they alone have some kind of monopoly on peaceful artistic fishing.They feel that their style of fishing is invariably more challenging and rewarding then some cretin bait fisherman out for meat.I can tell you first hand that there is zero differance in bait fishing spawn for salmon and steelhead and legit fly fishing for them in terms of relaxing style of fishing.Its simply a question as to your preferance and how you grew up into the sport.When I am drifting a bobber with skein for salmon on the Betsie or wherever I am every bit as relaxed as the guy fishing dry flies on a mountain stream in Wyoming or wherever.There are just as many variables and complexities in drifting bait for fish as there are in fly fishing.Say Im fishing a hole with 2 other guys drifting skein with me,Ill bet Ill catch more fish due to the many factors Ive tested and perfected in regards to the craft.Its not just a matter of getting a glob of spawn and tossing out a bobber,not all skein is created equal in terms of smell and milking which we hardcore skeiners know well.This debate shouldnt be fly fishing vs bait fishing because what 90% of what guys do here isnt real flyfishing anyway,its a fancy form of snagging.But for elitist flyfisherman to come on here and try to make it seem more relaxing and complex and sophisticated a sport is just laughable.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

LuckyChucky said:


> here is the thing Ive noticed about many fly fisherman,they think that they alone have some kind of monopoly on peaceful artistic fishing.They feel that their style of fishing is invariably more challenging and rewarding then some cretin bait fisherman out for meat.*I can tell you first hand that there is zero differance in bait fishing spawn for salmon and steelhead and legit fly fishing for them in terms of relaxing style of fishing.Its simply a question as to your preferance and how you grew up into the sport*.


That's exactly what I was saying or trying to say in my first post in this thread. I took exception to the baitchuckers don't "get it" reference. I think I clearly said that life is too short to not enjoy what you enjoy doing, so I'm still trying to figure out where some fly anglers got a wasp in their waders. 

The legit fly anglers said there's other ways to present flies to fish that doesn't involve C & D on gravel. I agree with them on that...don't see where they think I was disagreeing with them. Thought I was also pretty clear about that when I said this: 

*"...And I respect the hell out people who fish the way they want "just because." Like I said, life's too short to not do what you love doing and you're right--there's plenty of ways to fly fish for salmon and steelhead where the fish decides what it's going to do and if it takes something that you hand tied yourself, then hell yeah it's worth every minute of effort. Same thing with me catching fish on rods I built or lures I doctored."*


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## woolybug25 (Aug 9, 2011)

thousandcasts said:


> Seriously? Dude...you act like a miserable little internet troll who seems to get into it with someone in just about every thread you post in. You seem to be throwing a lot of stuff out that you might think you know, but in fact you couldn't be more wrong about what I might know or not know. Like I said, I'll take what I've forgotten...
> 
> Tell you what genius, when you figure out how to not only read, but also understand what is being said, please find where I said anything in this thread about fly fishing being "stupid" or anything in that regard.
> 
> ...


I'm the troll? You are the one that is trying to pick a fight in a thread about fly fishing. Something that you don't know anything about. The guy asked a real question and you are still in this thread picking fights with anyone who fly fishes or doesn't think of you as superior. The only reason you are posting in this thread is to make a remark about someone's post because it _offended_ you as a bait fisherman. Between the two of us, I am the only one that actually gave advice to the original poster of the thread. You are only posting to pick a fight, as usual. 

You keep saying that I don't know anything about you while you assume that you have me all figured out. I know enough about you to know that you are a self absorbed know it all, posing as a guide and writer. Which neither of which, are you very impressive at. I know your reputation, I have read your writings, and if you would take "what you have forgotten" over someone you don't even know's knowledge, then you are dumber than I thought. You may have some of the people on here fooled into thinking that you actually know what you are talking about, but I know a self absorbed faker when I see one. 

Btw, I will be in town over Christmas and would happy to meet you in person. Then after, I will go have drinks with all of the real Michigan guides that all universally think of you as a joke.


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## woolybug25 (Aug 9, 2011)

TDI said:


> here is proof to back that statement up.... :lol:


haha, both an example of his "superior fishing knowledge" and his "superior writing abilities".



> Four averaged sized males were jockeying for position behind the female but, their efforts were largely ineffective due to the presence of a HUGE male that had clearly established his dominance on the spawning redd.
> 
> I&#8217;d been stalking the big male for three days and managed to hook him a half dozen times. Each battle ended abruptly with a broken line and mounting frustration. I slipped into the water just above the redd and made a short cast.


Good stuff, Steve... but this one is priceless...



> I prefer to drift flies for spawning Chinook, using more of a conventional drift fishing set up, so I&#8217;ll focus a little bit on that type of presentation.
> 
> Ideally, you&#8217;ll want to position yourself just upstream of the redd. By using a clock as an example, the redd should be at 10 or 11:00 from your position (or 1:00 to 2:00 depending on the direction of the current) You don&#8217;t want your fly to drift through the salmon to swiftly or it may not trigger a response. You&#8217;ll want to position the fly so it swings in front of the salmon&#8217;s face.


You're right. I have been doing it all wrong. haha.


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Who needs football on a Sunday afternoon? The visiting team is crushing the home team in being the bigger ass.
May the spoils go to whoever walks away first.


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## LuckyChucky (Mar 28, 2005)

Btw, I will be in town over Christmas and would happy to meet you in person. Then after, I will go have drinks with all of the real Michigan guides that all universally think of you as a joke.[/QUOTE]

Hutch is a good guide who knows his stuff.I think many of those other guides you would have drinks with are of the( lets target redds and floss because the fishing is slow and we dont wanna lose $) variety that has come to personify salmon fly fisherman here in MI


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

LuckyChucky said:


> here is the thing Ive noticed about many fly fisherman,they think that they alone have some kind of monopoly on peaceful artistic fishing.They feel that their style of fishing is invariably more challenging and rewarding then some cretin bait fisherman out for meat.I can tell you first hand that there is zero differance in bait fishing spawn for salmon and steelhead and legit fly fishing for them in terms of relaxing style of fishing.Its simply a question as to your preferance and how you grew up into the sport.When I am drifting a bobber with skein for salmon on the Betsie or wherever I am every bit as relaxed as the guy fishing dry flies on a mountain stream in Wyoming or wherever.There are just as many variables and complexities in drifting bait for fish as there are in fly fishing.Say Im fishing a hole with 2 other guys drifting skein with me,Ill bet Ill catch more fish due to the many factors Ive tested and perfected in regards to the craft.Its not just a matter of getting a glob of spawn and tossing out a bobber,not all skein is created equal in terms of smell and milking which we hardcore skeiners know well.This debate shouldnt be fly fishing vs bait fishing because what 90% of what guys do here isnt real flyfishing anyway,its a fancy form of snagging.But for elitist flyfisherman to come on here and try to make it seem more relaxing and complex and sophisticated a sport is just laughable.


Chucky, you can try to rationalize it all you want but it's a fly fishing thing and you likely couldn't understand. :lol:


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

OH-YEAH... ummm.... is it a fly casting.... or fly fishing thing?...


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Fly fishing has and will continue to take me to some of the most beautiful places in the world. There's no "propanda" about that.


I always enjoy your pics of Alaska and it jogs my still vivid memories of my journeys there. For example, on one occasion far down on the peninsula when a group of 6 of us were being transported down to the boats on the home river. It was going to be my wife's 2nd time in her life fly fishing and I had brought a spinner rod with for her just in case. Of course, on the way down, the fly fishing expert piped up, "Hey, fly fishing only here!", which got some chuckles from a few others in the audience. Well, fly fish she did that day. A day later on a flyout to estuary waters, my wife and I were downstream of the fly fishing expert and cohorts. When playing fish, it took them roughly 2-3 times as long to land their fish, which happens when one keeps the tip straight in the air and doesn't flex the rod past the midpoint of the rod. All these lovely silvers were then dragged up on the gravel about 4-5 feet from the waters edge, flopped around or held down until the fly was adroitfully extracted by finger method from the mouth, then guided by foot so carefully back into the water. As batallions of silvers and assorted other salmon paraded upstream past all of us with the rising tide that day as if on some type of biologic conveyor belt, needless to say Silver fishing was hot and heavy that day. I'd say roughly a 3rd of the silvers released (it was all catch and released) by the expert and company were doing the death spiral as they floated down past. Poetic? Just plain better? It's instances like this and several others that kind of sours my take on fly fishermen, at least select ones.

But I will stand with you, fly fishing is fun and enjoyable. 

You know, I've also seen nasty stuff done by select gut chuckers..and hardware slingers...and those plain flat out snagging and I sure you have seen it too. But, the biggest difference that I see, and the moral of the story is these schmucks don't pretend to claim moral/ethical superiority.


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

REG said:


> I always enjoy your pics of Alaska and it jogs my still vivid memories of my journeys there. For example, on one occasion far down on the peninsula when a group of 6 of us were being transported down to the boats on the home river. It was going to be my wife's 2nd time in her life fly fishing and I had brought a spinner rod with for her just in case. Of course, on the way down, the fly fishing expert piped up, "Hey, fly fishing only here!", which got some chuckles from a few others in the audience. Well, fly fish she did that day. A day later on a flyout to estuary waters, my wife and I were downstream of the fly fishing expert and cohorts. When playing fish, it took them roughly 2-3 times as long to land their fish, which happens when one keeps the tip straight in the air and doesn't flex the rod past the midpoint of the rod. All these lovely silvers were then dragged up on the gravel about 4-5 feet from the waters edge, flopped around or held down until the fly was adroitfully extracted by finger method from the mouth, then guided by foot so carefully back into the water. As batallions of silvers and assorted other salmon paraded upstream past all of us with the rising tide that day as if on some type of biologic conveyor belt, needless to say Silver fishing was hot and heavy that day. I'd say roughly a 3rd of the silvers released (it was all catch and released) by the expert and company were doing the death spiral as they floated down past. Poetic? Just plain better? It's instances like this and several others that kind of sours my take on fly fishermen, at least select ones.
> 
> But I will stand with you, fly fishing is fun and enjoyable.
> 
> You know, I've also seen nasty stuff done by select gut chuckers..and hardware slingers...and those plain flat out snagging and I sure you have seen it too. But, the biggest difference that I see, and the moral of the story is these schmucks don't pretend to claim moral/ethical superiority.


Reg, I'd love to see some of your photos. 

Alaska is a compulsion for me now.  I am taking one of my very best friends from high school to www.naknekrivercamp.com this September. It's a very far cry from an Orvis or fancy lodge. Just lots of fishing and basic food and very basic cabins. That buddy from high school is now a psychiatrist who oversees _involuntary _admissions at a State run psychiatric hospital so he can tell me whether my Alaska compulsion is slipping into madness. 

I think that some spin guys are overly sensitive about the whole fly fishing vs. bait fishing issue. For me, I love casting a fly line, even if there's a bunch of split shot at the end of the line. I don't like seeing steelhead culled for spawn or skein but it's legal so it's ultimately up to the angler whether they want to kill the fish or not.

Reg, please share some of your Alaska pics. I need my fix - it's a long time til I'll be there again and late December is my cutoff for Michigan fishing unless there's a nice 40 degree day.

Tight lines...even if you're using a spinning rod.


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## woolybug25 (Aug 9, 2011)

For the record, I hope no one takes any of my comments as derogatory towards fishing with bait or lures. I think it is great that you are on the water regardless of your tactics as long as they are legal. 

My arguments with Thousandcasts is just me voicing my frustration with people not giving fly fishing the same courtesy. He constantly tries to treat anyone on here that doesn't think of him as a steelhead god or like to primarily fly fish as somehow less of a fisherman than him. 

People using chuck and duck to rape redds are not representative of the sport as a whole. I fully realize that there are a lot of people that do just that, but please don't lump everyone into this category. C&D is widely not seen as true fly fishing everywhere outside of the midwest. Most of us use tactics like swinging, nymphing (not over redds), dry flies, etc. 

LuckyChucky - I can assure you that all of my friends that are fly fishing guides in Michigan are ethical. Most of them swing flies with spey rods and fish for trout the rest of the time. I realize that doesn't represent 100% of the fly fishing guides, but it's not like 100% of bait guides are ethical either. I dont consider either methods of guiding unethical. My comments to Thousandcasts was probably a little brash, but he simply gets under my skin. My apologies if my comments to him seemed as if they were attacking non-flyfisherman as a whole, because that was certainly not my intent.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Reg, I'd love to see some of your photos.
> 
> Alaska is a compulsion for me now.  I am taking one of my very best friends from high school to www.naknekrivercamp.com this September. It's a very far cry from an Orvis or fancy lodge. Just lots of fishing and basic food and very basic cabins. That buddy from high school is now a psychiatrist who oversees _involuntary _admissions at a State run psychiatric hospital so he can tell me whether my Alaska compulsion is slipping into madness.
> 
> ...


You're right, Alaska does get into your blood.

You hit me in a weak spot. All of my Alaska pics are ancient stuff, you know, 35 mm pics. If you or anyone has any advice on how to get them posted up, I'll give it a spin.

The most fun was waking wogs for silvers. I did end up with a few going home with me as the silvers would smash it so dang hard a couple had it down in the gills.

Also, I used pink corkies on a five weight to wake for char. Seems like the smaller char were readily available, but biggest char were mixed right in with the pods of sockeyes and fishing to them with how we were rigged (bouncing pegged corkies) led to too many sockeye. The solution was to wake the corkies over them. I remember a few males tracking the corkie with their quivering kypes just out of the water, phew... that was huge fun!
A huge side benefit is that the corkies are indestructable and will last all week if not lost. 

Same to you and enjoy the warm weather as long as it lasts!


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I dont concern myself with what someone else does with a skanky salmon in the privacy of their own hole.


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## STEELnICE (Dec 4, 2007)

I skimmed through all this garble briefly and could only laugh hysterically at all the beautiful emotional scenery being painted by the fly crowd. :lol: Nothing new there...


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## buckhunter14 (Oct 10, 2007)

The pictures of Alaska are nice, looks like some fun country...

But hey, I guess I would be classified as a "bait" fisherman. I will attempt to rack and rid my brain of the beautiful and scenic areas I have fished --> better head to 6th street or tippy to remind me of lost time?!?!?

Seriously, the fishing is good and the arrogance is starting early in the 'cold' months of the season.


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## Roger That (Nov 18, 2010)

I do not fly fish. However, I have the same eyes and am capable of enjoying the same "wild beauty" as someone who does. Pompous *******s.


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## The Downstream Drift (Feb 27, 2010)

Yet another thread that shows the divide among fishermen. This stuff never ceases to amaze me.

Yesterday a guy knocked on my door and began to share his version of religion with me. Everything was perfect in his version and it seemed that other "churches" simply have it wrong in his mind. 

I'm sure we have all heard this story once or twice before? Doesn't kind of sound the same as this "fly fishing is better than other fishing" arguement?

As many of you know, I am a devoted fly fisherman. But just like the guy that knocked on my door, it is my choice to fly fish and that choice I have made shouldn't be pushed on others. I happen to know many people (like Hutch, who I don't personally know) that get the same enjoyment in fishing by taking their kids on the water with them that I do when I am watching trout rise to a blanket caddis hatch.

To the original poster... salmon will take flies, both streamers and others. Follow the suggestions given earlier in this thread. Fish the dark water, stay away from the fish you can see and hold on when they take. Patience is a virtue and knowing that you won't be "hooking" as many fish as the fly guys on the gravel is important. But at least you'll be doing it the right way and not foul hooking spawning fish.


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## fishinDon (May 23, 2002)

plugger said:


> I dont concern myself with what someone else does with a skanky salmon in the privacy of their own hole.


This has been an entertaining thread, but this one clearly takes the cake! 

For the record, I don't care how you fish as long as you don't try to tell me how I should be fishing. I haven't flown to Alaska, and I only fish with a fly rod a few weeks a year, but I feel just like Traver described every time I get out on an secluded stretch of trout water. Good Luck to every one of you regardless of how you do battle. Less and less of us every day, we should be making plans to meet up and share stories, tips, and tactics - not black eyes.

Don


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## limpinglogan (Sep 23, 2009)

I am wondering if I will ever understand the levels of border line behavior on the rivers and it seems every one has a different opinion of what is right and wrong...I can honestly say that I enjoy the discussion as long as it stays healthy.


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## LuckyChucky (Mar 28, 2005)

Roger That said:


> I do not fly fish. However, I have the same eyes and am capable of enjoying the same "wild beauty" as someone who does. Pompous *******s.


ya I just think its silly to think that they are somehow superior fisherman to us bait or hardware dunkers.Flyfishing is an art and takes skill but like I said drifting bait for fish can be just as challenging with just as many variables.You can have fish pass by offerings of bait again and again till they get exactly what they want in front of them so dont think that the smell from live bait alone is enough to make fish stupid and bite anything or any real advantage


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

limpinglogan said:


> I am wondering if I will ever understand the levels of border line behavior on the rivers and it seems every one has a different opinion of what is right and wrong...I can honestly say that I enjoy the discussion as long as it stays healthy.


Again you push the method of fly-snagging


Keep going.... learn how to fish! Without putting the rest of us to shame..

me thinks you're baiting...


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

You can have fish pass by offerings of bait again and again till they get exactly what they want in front of them so dont think that the smell from live bait alone is enough to make fish stupid and bite anything or any real advantage[/QUOTE said:


> Definitly agree with that. Heck i even read in a book once how a good nymph fisher could clean out a stream. True? Who knows. But in the end we do need to get along and be sportsman no matter what you choose. And to the salmon as ive said before take em with c4 for all i care.


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