# Fall 2022 Chinook Salmon Egg Take, Little Manistee Weir



## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Just wanted to let everyone know that our Fisheries Technicians lowered the Little Manistee Weir into place this past monday, so upstream fish passage is now effectively blocked. This is in preparation for the upcoming Chinook salmon egg take. The egg take usually takes place in late September/early October. At this point the fish are blocked from moving upstream, but the pumps are not on, and no fish are in the facility. The pumps likely will not be turned on until at least mid-September.

As a reminder, the river is always closed to fishing 300' upstream and downstream of the weir. The river below the weir (all the way to Manistee Lake) will close to fishing on Sept. 1. We're looking forward to a good egg take this fall!


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## motoscoota (Mar 9, 2021)

Wow, thank you very much for sharing this crucial info!

Having the MS inside scoop (pun intended) is rather nice!


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2000)

Will lower Manistee lake remain open after laborday?


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Erik said:


> Will lower Manistee lake remain open after laborday?


Yes. We got rid of that closure a few years ago. As long as it doesn't become a snagger fest, we'd prefer to keep that area open to fishing in September.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

We appreciate your hard work.


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## Bud man (May 1, 2008)

Thanks for the update


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Since egg take volume is directly tied to future plant numbers, how many chinook will be planted in spring in 2023 in Lake Michigan? Will the majority of these plants be made outside of current Consent Decree bounaries? Will the plant numbers per site be apportioned based on survivorship values derived from multi-year CWT data for Chinook in Lake Michigan?


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

The Chinook stocking numbers and locations for 2023 have not been decided yet, as far as I am aware. You'll have to check with Jay Wesley on that. Survivorship values will certainly play a role in stocking locations.


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## Krystalflash (Nov 26, 2021)

M. Tonello said:


> The Chinook stocking numbers and locations for 2023 have not been decided yet, as far as I am aware. You'll have to check with Jay Wesley on that. Survivorship values will certainly play a role in stocking locations.


I’ve said this before….my hats off Mr. Tonello. MDNR activity participating in a forum about sport fishing. Informative and supportive. We all at times bitch about MDNR. You would never see that over here. Referring to Ministry of Natural Resources. If it wasnt for local Ontario clubs and the state of Michigan I’m sure Southern Lake Huron wouldn’t see any type of fish plant. The difference between the MDNR and MNR..is the as the difference between me and starting quarter back for any NFL team. Not even on the same planet.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Krystalflash said:


> I’ve said this before….my hats off Mr. Tonello. MDNR activity participating in a forum about sport fishing. Informative and supportive. We all at times bitch about MDNR. You would never see that over here. Referring to Ministry of Natural Resources. If it wasnt for local Ontario clubs and the state of Michigan I’m sure Southern Lake Huron wouldn’t see any type of fish plant. The difference between the MDNR and MNR..is the as the difference between me and starting quarter back for any NFL team. Not even on the same planet.


Krystalflash- thanks for the kind words, much appreciated! For at least some of us, fishing is our passion and we are doing what we can to maintain and improve the awesome fishing we have here in Michigan. I grew up fishing southern Lake Huron, so that area will always have a special place in my heart.


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## Jay Wesley (Mar 2, 2009)

Cork Dust said:


> Since egg take volume is directly tied to future plant numbers, how many chinook will be planted in spring in 2023 in Lake Michigan? Will the majority of these plants be made outside of current Consent Decree bounaries? Will the plant numbers per site be apportioned based on survivorship values derived from multi-year CWT data for Chinook in Lake Michigan?


The plan is to stock 1,000,000 in Michigan waters of Lake Michigan. 

We use many factors in determining where to stock and survival based on tagged data is one of them. 

Odd years including 2023:
Fairport = 75,000
Medusa/Charlevoix = 125,000
Little Manistee River = 275,000
Big Sable/Ludington State Park = 100,000
Muskegon = 125,000
Grand Haven = 150,000
St. Joseph = 150,000

Even years starting in 2024:
Manistique = 150,000
Medusa/Charlevoix = 125,000
Boardman River = 100,000
Little Manistee River = 275,000
Big Sable/Ludington State Park = 100,000
South Haven = 125,000
Saugatuck/Kalamazoo River = 125,000


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## fishdip (Dec 29, 2010)

Thank you Mark and Jay for all you do for our fishery,PURE MICHIGAN!👍


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## Mr Burgundy (Nov 19, 2009)

U guys are awesome, tnks for all your hard work!!


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Is Wisconsin going to continue to plant 1.2million chinook smolts, or are they altering plants in 2023?


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## Jay Wesley (Mar 2, 2009)

Cork Dust said:


> Is Wisconsin going to continue to plant 1.2million chinook smolts, or are they altering plants in 2023?


They are working through a public process. They may come up some. They may be getting close to hatchery capacity. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## ajhallfr (Jan 1, 2014)

Jay Wesley said:


> They are working through a public process. They may come up some. They may be getting close to hatchery capacity.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Mr. Wesley, thank you for keeping us informed! I, for one, appreciate it.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Jay Wesley said:


> They are working through a public process. They may come up some. They may be getting close to hatchery capacity.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


When is the Press release for the Lake Michigan Management Committee's plant guidelines scheduled for issuance? Not that this is a carved-in-stone deadine for Mr. Kalish's action, but it is a goal...like the "priates code", more like a guideline. 

Sure would be a nice reassurance to see a management agency reinstitute dorsal tissue plug sampling on chinook for percent water content annually. It would serve two benefits if done mid-summer annually: 1.) It would provide a ready update as an indirect barometer on forage base health. 2.) It would serve as a beneficial and informative check within the Lake Comms.' three year plant decision interval to further inform the multiple species Predator/Prey Model trend data.


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## Quig7557 (Dec 31, 2008)

When does the weir open back up?, cancel that, reread the first post.
Have they passed any browns or Stealhead?


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Quig- The pumps were just turned on yesterday, so we now have fish in the ponds. The fish techs were planning to do a ripeness check today, which will help us make a call on whether or not to conduct egg take next week. Since we haven't really handled any fish yet, we haven't passed any other species. That will happen when we conduct egg take. Stay tuned!


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## ajkulish (Nov 16, 2013)

Mark and Jay,

Great to have you guys on this forum - thanks for keeping us all in the loop!


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

No egg take this week. There weren't enough ripe hens in there to justify the effort. First day of egg take is now planned for Tuesday October 4th. As long as the fish supply holds out, we'll try to do two and maybe even three days that week.


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## seabass810 (Apr 2, 2010)

Oh nice the week I am up there. Might have to stop in and watch. What time do you start and stop usually


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

We usually start around 9am. We usually finish in the early afternoon, usually by 2pm.


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## Bomba (Jul 26, 2005)

We were there last weekend, lots of fish in the ladder, watched more than a couple jump out, a few even went under the fence onto the sidewalk.. We put them back in..


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## jmaddog8807 (Oct 6, 2009)

Was there Tuesday. I have never actually been there once they open up the gate for fish to swim up into the holding tanks. Very cool to see. So many fish. There's a big brown in there waiting, I'm guessing over 10 easy.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

You should be inside working the sorting table when the electric mule fork-lift crowds a load of fish, lifts them up and lowers them into a vat of MS-222 to partially anesthetize them and then dumps them onto the stainless steel sorting table-fish slime shower time! All non-target fish get slid into oval slots around the table's perimeter that have a spigot at the mouth opening that enables the folks sorting to run a stream of water down the stainless pipe to speed the fish back out to their respective holding pen. Pneumatic air injectors push the loose egg out of the peritoneum of ripe hens and sperm is added prior mixing and transfer to an incubation tray for water hardening to occur.. Once a single sperm enters an egge via the micropyle the egg membrane begins to water harden and gorw, becoming quite rubbery. This is the initial evidence that incubation has been initiated.


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## jmaddog8807 (Oct 6, 2009)

I would love to help out and volunteer if I can get work off on the day off the egg take. Any way I could help, I would.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Day 1 of Chinook salmon egg take at the Little Manistee Weir is in the books. We spawned 152 pairs, harvesting a total of 763 total Chinook salmon. We passed 4 brown trout, 12 steelhead, and 102 coho salmon. Biggest Chinook was 25.5, and biggest coho was 11.9. No remarkable browns or steelhead, sizewise. We'll be back at it in the morning. If the fish supply holds out, we'll be going again on thursday as well.


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Nice weather for egg take!! Thanks for the update


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## seabass810 (Apr 2, 2010)

Well my trip this week is canceled. Got the covid. Had to happen right before my vacation


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Had another good day of Chinook salmon egg take at the Little Manistee Weir. We spawned 120 pairs, harvesting 399 Chinooks for a 2 day total of 1,162. We passed 24 coho salmon for a total of 126. Three browns were passed, for a total of 7. One of the browns was right around 7 lbs, the biggest so far. Seven steelhead were also passed, for a total of 19. One of the steelies was right around 13 lbs. Biggest Chinook today was just over 27 lbs. Fish supply continues to look good, so we'll be back at it in the morning.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Were the 25 and 27lb fish females or males? Were they AD clipped?


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Cork Dust said:


> Were the 25 and 27lb fish females or males? Were they AD clipped?


Ah geez now you're taxing the ole memory banks. I've seen a lot of salmon in the last two days! If I recall correctly, the 25 lber from yesterday was an unclipped male, and the 27 lber from today was a clipped hen.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

M. Tonello said:


> Ah geez now you're taxing the ole memory banks. I've seen a lot of salmon in the last two days! If I recall correctly, the 25 lber from yesterday was an unclipped male, and the 27 lber from today was a clipped hen.


Thanks!


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Day 3 of Chinook salmon egg take 2022 is in the books. We spawned 223 pairs and harvested 749, for a season total of 1,911. Today we passed 196 cohos for a season total of 322. We had a 13.5 lb fire truck male coho in the mix today. We also passed 26 steelhead, for a season total of 45. Biggest steelie is now 13.5. Lastly, we had 4 brown trout come through, for a season total of 11. But one of them was 18.5 lbs, the biggest we've ever seen at the weir!!! I'll try to get some pics of that one posted. It was a gorgeous hen lake-run brown trout. Fish supply is holding up well, so we'll be going again on tuesday morning.

So far we've filled the egg needs for Wolf Lake and Platte River Hatcheries. Tuesday's take will go to Thompson Hatchery in the UP.


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## Canvsbk (Jan 13, 2013)

Wow! What a giant brown. It’s great she gets a chance to pass those genes on.


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## salmon_slayer06 (Mar 19, 2006)

just a day before you closed the weir I caught my biggest pier king off manistee north pier a 33 pound chrome buck headed for the river. a huge accomplishment to the reduced stocking numbers and saving the fishery


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## Kisutch (May 26, 2011)

Did that monster brown have an adipose? If it didn't I will thank the gentlemen across the lake with a personal phone call.

Kisutch 

God Bless Dr Howard Tanner 

Former Lake Michigan Stakeholder 

Lake Michigan Lake Trout Gillnetters Association "We pledge to kill them all"

Alewife what?


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## Krystalflash (Nov 26, 2021)

I commented a month or so ago…I’m going to again…I hope everyone appropriates the effort from this guy (MDNR). You would never see this informative participation from the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. Hats off…again.


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## AdamBradley (Mar 13, 2008)

Krystalflash said:


> I commented a month or so ago…I’m going to again…I hope everyone appropriates the effort from this guy (MDNR). You would never see this informative participation from the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. Hats off…again.


Yes! Thank you as always mark! I’ve also said this before, but our state is very cool with how open and involved in the community the biologists and managers are. It blew my Washington guide buddy’s mind, “you actually can talk to your biologists and managers?!?! They get involved and actually speak with anglers?!?!”

Lets not take it for granted! Thanks again mark!


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## jmaddog8807 (Oct 6, 2009)

salmon_slayer06 said:


> just a day before you closed the weir I caught my biggest pier king off manistee north pier a 33 pound chrome buck headed for the river. a huge accomplishment to the reduced stocking numbers and saving the fishery
> 
> Sick fish man! You going to show me some Fall surf fishing methods this year


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Thanks for the kind words everyone, much appreciated. Here's a pic of that brown trout. Kisutch- you'll be able to see the adipose fin as clear as day!


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## cowboy48098 (Aug 20, 2015)

M. Tonello said:


> Thanks for the kind words everyone, much appreciated. Here's a pic of that brown trout. Kisutch- you'll be able to see the adipose fin as clear as day!
> View attachment 858221


That's a wall mounter. Damn!


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## Canvsbk (Jan 13, 2013)

Absolute stunning fish!


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

Definitely a decent brown, a hen to boot.


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Only one larger I have seen this year is this 22 pounder caught on the lake end of July out of Ludington


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## B.Jarvinen (Jul 12, 2014)

I’ve been wondering about the 3 species passed upriver during Chinook operations - are stats kept on planted vs. natural with those?


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

B.Jarvinen said:


> I’ve been wondering about the 3 species passed upriver during Chinook operations - are stats kept on planted vs. natural with those?


Only hatchery steelhead are clipped, not coho or brown trout. So no way to tell with them. No steelhead, coho, or brown trout are stocked in the Little Manistee. We do see a few clipped steelhead, but it's a fairly low percentage. I suspect a few of these early cohos are probably some strays from the Big Manistee River plant, but the Little M is the best wild coho stream in the state, perhaps in the Great Lakes. The browns are probably all wild, although it is possible that some of the lake runs we see are those that are stocked in Manistee harbor.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Day 4 of Chinook salmon egg take 2022 is in the books. We spawned 173 pairs, and harvested 600 Chinooks for a season total of 2,511. We passed 94 cohos for a season total of 416, 16 steelhead for a season total of 61, and 10 brown trout for a season total of 21. Today's take satisfies all of our hatchery requirements. We had our biggest Chinook of the year come through, a 29.0 lb egg wagon hen. 

Today's take satisfies all of the Michigan hatchery requirements. Tomorrow will be the last day of egg take, and we'll be taking eggs for Indiana and Illinois.


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Mark. Why do you think the little river gets a wild run of coho better than any other stream?


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## Mr Burgundy (Nov 19, 2009)

M. Tonello said:


> Day 4 of Chinook salmon egg take 2022 is in the books. We spawned 173 pairs, and harvested 600 Chinooks for a season total of 2,511. We passed 94 cohos for a season total of 416, 16 steelhead for a season total of 61, and 10 brown trout for a season total of 21. Today's take satisfies all of our hatchery requirements. We had our biggest Chinook of the year come through, a 29.0 lb egg wagon hen.
> 
> Today's take satisfies all of the Michigan hatchery requirements. Tomorrow will be the last day of egg take, and we'll be taking eggs for Indiana and Illinois.


What happens to the salmon that are "harvested "?


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## B.Jarvinen (Jul 12, 2014)

Thanks Mark! We haven’t seen many Cohos out at the pier in the last ten days, so I started pondering whether perhaps the planted fish had all largely run and maybe the natural fish hadn’t come in-shore yet.


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## tgafish (Jan 19, 2001)

M. Tonello said:


> Thanks for the kind words everyone, much appreciated. Here's a pic of that brown trout. Kisutch- you'll be able to see the adipose fin as clear as day!
> View attachment 858221


Thanks for the picture Mark. What a gorgeous brown!!


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

riverman said:


> Mark. Why do you think the little river gets a wild run of coho better than any other stream?


It's the same characteristics that make it such a great wild steelhead and brown trout stream- the gravel and the groundwater. The coho life cycle is such that they must spend a full year in the river before smolting out the following spring, so they need those cooler summer temps.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Burgundy said:


> What happens to the salmon that are "harvested "?


That's up to American Canadian Fisheries, the company that holds the weir contract. From what I hear, a lot of it goes for pet food. In the past, some of the better coho salmon were going for human consumption, but not sure if they're still doing that.


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## Mr Burgundy (Nov 19, 2009)

Got ya.. tnks for the info


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

M. Tonello said:


> It's the same characteristics that make it such a great wild steelhead and brown trout stream- the gravel and the groundwater. The coho life cycle is such that they must spend a full year in the river before smolting out the following spring, so they need those cooler summer temps.


Thanks for the answer. Didn’t realize coho fry stayed in the river that long


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## nighttime (Nov 25, 2007)

Also noticed that little man doesn’t cool as quickly ether.
Those coho spawn and into January, not pressured by steep drop off winter temperatures. You’ll see them in late December still in decent numbers


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

I used to see Cohos in the Red Cedar, far upstream, in December. They run/spawn later in the season for sure. Tippy is usually full of Cohos (above the coffer) through December. There are probably small late season Coho runs in a lot of small rivers, that people don't really look at, that late in the season.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

nighttime said:


> Also noticed that little man doesn’t cool as quickly ether.
> Those coho spawn and into January, not pressured by steep drop off winter temperatures. You’ll see them in late December still in decent numbers


Good observation Nighttime. The same groundwater that keeps the Little M cool in the summer keeps it warmer by a few degrees in the winter. I've seen coho on the gravel in the Little M as late as March!


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## nighttime (Nov 25, 2007)

Yup totally believe that!!


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Chinook salmon egg take 2022 is now complete! The weir was pulled and the ponds drained. Today we spawned 254 pairs (half for Indiana, half for Illinois) and harvested a total of 1,820 Chinooks, for a season total of 4,331. We passed 203 cohos for a season total of 619. Fifty steelhead were passed, for a season total of 111, and 32 brown trout were passed for a season total of 53. We had a 15.3 lb steelhead today, the biggest of the run. We saw a good number of steelhead in the low teens.

Since the weir has been pulled, any remaining salmon will be able to head upstream on their own, as will the rest of the fall steelhead run. This was the biggest Chinook salmon harvest at the weir since 2013, when we harvested just over 6,400.

Here's a good story on the egg take that NPR did: Inside the state’s effort to boost Chinook numbers in Lake Michigan


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## Bob Hunter (Jan 19, 2016)

M. Tonello said:


> Chinook salmon egg take 2022 is now complete! The weir was pulled and the ponds drained. Today we spawned 254 pairs (half for Indiana, half for Illinois) and harvested a total of 1,820 Chinooks, for a season total of 4,331. We passed 203 cohos for a season total of 619. Fifty steelhead were passed, for a season total of 111, and 32 brown trout were passed for a season total of 53. We had a 15.3 lb steelhead today, the biggest of the run. We saw a good number of steelhead in the low teens.
> 
> Since the weir has been pulled, any remaining salmon will be able to head upstream on their own, as will the rest of the fall steelhead run. This was the biggest Chinook salmon harvest at the weir since 2013, when we harvested just over 6,400.
> 
> Here's a good story on the egg take that NPR did: Inside the state’s effort to boost Chinook numbers in Lake Michigan


Do you believe that the amount of low teen and bigger steelhead weights is due to the increased amount of alewives in Lake Michigan?


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## fishdip (Dec 29, 2010)

M. Tonello said:


> Chinook salmon egg take 2022 is now complete! The weir was pulled and the ponds drained. Today we spawned 254 pairs (half for Indiana, half for Illinois) and harvested a total of 1,820 Chinooks, for a season total of 4,331. We passed 203 cohos for a season total of 619. Fifty steelhead were passed, for a season total of 111, and 32 brown trout were passed for a season total of 53. We had a 15.3 lb steelhead today, the biggest of the run. We saw a good number of steelhead in the low teens.
> 
> Since the weir has been pulled, any remaining salmon will be able to head upstream on their own, as will the rest of the fall steelhead run. This was the biggest Chinook salmon harvest at the weir since 2013, when we harvested just over 6,400.
> 
> Here's a good story on the egg take that NPR did: Inside the state’s effort to boost Chinook numbers in Lake Michigan


Thank you Mark for all your hard work and keeping our fishery alive.


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## AdamBradley (Mar 13, 2008)

M. Tonello said:


> Chinook salmon egg take 2022 is now complete! The weir was pulled and the ponds drained. Today we spawned 254 pairs (half for Indiana, half for Illinois) and harvested a total of 1,820 Chinooks, for a season total of 4,331. We passed 203 cohos for a season total of 619. Fifty steelhead were passed, for a season total of 111, and 32 brown trout were passed for a season total of 53. We had a 15.3 lb steelhead today, the biggest of the run. We saw a good number of steelhead in the low teens.
> 
> Since the weir has been pulled, any remaining salmon will be able to head upstream on their own, as will the rest of the fall steelhead run. This was the biggest Chinook salmon harvest at the weir since 2013, when we harvested just over 6,400.
> 
> Here's a good story on the egg take that NPR did: Inside the state’s effort to boost Chinook numbers in Lake Michigan


That’s really great mark! I had been thinking a couple days ago that numbers were seeming very good for the weir, glad to see it was true!

agreed, good article to underdtand the process. Thanks for sharing.

let’s hope we see the same for our beloved steelhead this year as well!

again, thanks for all you do, and the transparency, always greatly appreciated!


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Bob Hunter said:


> Do you believe that the amount of low teen and bigger steelhead weights is due to the increased amount of alewives in Lake Michigan?


Matt Kornis, USFWS research biologist, used stable isotope analysis techniques to assess both food niche overlap among salmonines in Lake Michigan as well as better define forage array by species about five years ago. He concluded that, as steelhead size increases, the porportion of a steelhead's diet composed of alewife increased for Lake Michigan fish. He also concluded that lake trout, unlike all the other salmonines he studied-chinook and coho salmon, brown trout, steelhead- fed disproportionately on the adult alewife stock component, rather than the more numerouse juvenile alewife stock. He presented these data at the annual lake management committees meetings of the Great Lakes Fishery Commission.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Bob Hunter said:


> Do you believe that the amount of low teen and bigger steelhead weights is due to the increased amount of alewives in Lake Michigan?


Could be. Remember we only saw 111 steelhead, so that's not a big sample size. The other issue is that we didn't stock any steelhead in Lake Michigan in 2021 (remember we didn't take eggs in 2020 due to covid), so some of those smaller 2 year old fish are going to missing from the catch. That might lead to a higher proportion of bigger fish, even though there might be fewer fish overall.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

M. Tonello said:


> Could be. Remember we only saw 111 steelhead, so that's not a big sample size. The other issue is that we didn't stock any steelhead in Lake Michigan in 2021 (remember we didn't take eggs in 2020 due to covid), so some of those smaller 2 year old fish are going to missing from the catch. That might lead to a higher proportion of bigger fish, even though there might be fewer fish overall.


I'm confused: You referenced the 111 steelhead passed at the LM weir. As you stated earlier in the thread it is a river that doesn't get planted. You then made comparisons to the overall plants in Lake Michigan impacting the proportion of smaller two year old fish being absent in the catch. Which "catch" are you referencing? The sample of fish passed during chinook egg taking I assume, since that is what the questioner referenced? How do lakewide plant values impact the proportion of larger fish passed in a system that doesn't receive them? Straying of planted fish is also relatively low, particularly for fish who have not reached sexual maturity like the 2YOs you reference.


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## Bob Hunter (Jan 19, 2016)

Cork Dust said:


> I'm confused: You referenced the 111 steelhead passed at the LM weir. As you stated earlier in the thread it is a river that doesn't get planted. You then made comparisons to the overall plants in Lake Michigan impacting the proportion of smaller two year old fish being absent in the catch. Which "catch" are you referencing? The sample of fish passed during chinook egg taking I assume, since that is what the questioner referenced? How do lakewide plant values impact the proportion of larger fish passed in a system that doesn't receive them? Straying of planted fish is also relatively low, particularly for fish who have not reached sexual maturity like the 2YOs you reference.


Great question!


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Cork Dust said:


> I'm confused: You referenced the 111 steelhead passed at the LM weir. As you stated earlier in the thread it is a river that doesn't get planted. You then made comparisons to the overall plants in Lake Michigan impacting the proportion of smaller two year old fish being absent in the catch. Which "catch" are you referencing? The sample of fish passed during chinook egg taking I assume, since that is what the questioner referenced? How do lakewide plant values impact the proportion of larger fish passed in a system that doesn't receive them? Straying of planted fish is also relatively low, particularly for fish who have not reached sexual maturity like the 2YOs you reference.


Good question. For some reason, steelhead, even hatchery steelhead love the Little Manistee River. Over the years the overall run in that river has typically be about 1/3 hatchery fish, believe it or not. There's a scale-aging technique in which an experienced scale reader can tell a hatchery fish from a wild one. So the lack of planting in 2021 is going to have some effect on overall numbers, even at the LM Weir. That said, the low number of steelhead passed this fall is mostly due to two things, the first being the early date that we removed the weir, and the second being the low water conditions so far this fall.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

There is plenty of time (a month) for it to rain, and fill the rivers, and for good numbers of Steelhead to migrate into the Little River, before it re-opens below the weir.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

M. Tonello said:


> Good question. For some reason, steelhead, even hatchery steelhead love the Little Manistee River. Over the years the overall run in that river has typically be about 1/3 hatchery fish, believe it or not. There's a scale-aging technique in which an experienced scale reader can tell a hatchery fish from a wild one. So the lack of planting in 2021 is going to have some effect on overall numbers, even at the LM Weir. That said, the low number of steelhead passed this fall is mostly due to two things, the first being the early date that we removed the weir, and the second being the low water conditions so far this fall.


When asked earlier about the ratio of AD clipped steelhead to wild fish, you made the point of stating that the LM receives no plants. Now, you state that as many as a third of hatchery fish planted elsewhere( derived from wild LM broodstock) "stray" to the Little Manistee. Since 2018 planted steelhead have received an AD clip and a CWT via the Mass Marking Study trailer crew's work, even when factoring-in the lack of a 2020 year-class of planted fish there should be a presence of AD clipped steelhead in the LM.

Why is this important? As fishery research biologists "flesh-out" the internal population dynamics of wild and hatchery origin steelhead to determine the best management course of action to stabilize the Lake Michigan stock, a variety of variables that impact survivorship long term need to be accurately communicated to the sport fishing public both for their buy-in and understanding of steelhead dynamics.









Natal Origins of Lake Michigan Steelhead Salmon Explored


Fishery managers in the Lake Michigan basin have new information about the journeys and survival of wild and hatchery-raised steelhead salmon (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Managing the fish effectively requires understanding the proportion of fish coming from hatcheries or the wild, generally, and from...




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M. Tonello said:


> Good question. For some reason, steelhead, even hatchery steelhead love the Little Manistee River. Over the years the overall run in that river has typically be about 1/3 hatchery fish, believe it or not. There's a scale-aging technique in which an experienced scale reader can tell a hatchery fish from a wild one. So the lack of planting in 2021 is going to have some effect on overall numbers, even at the LM Weir. That said, the low number of steelhead passed this fall is mostly due to two things, the first being the early date that we removed the weir, and the second being the low water conditions so far this fall.


Earlier, you made the point of stating that the LM received no plants in response to a question regarding AD clipped steelhead being present. Now you state that there is significant straying of hatchery fish ( derived from LM brood stock). These are inconsistent statements that run counter to each other. The CWT Mass Marking program has tagged hatchery steelhead since 2018 in Lake Michigan plantsr, so even in the absence of 2021 plants, coupled with your comments on high "straying" rates of hatchery fish there should be decent numbers of AD fish entering the LM proportionally. Yes, I am aware of hatchery checks encountered while scale aging particularly in salmonines. Given the high variability between growth and maturation rates for wild versus hatchery steelhead already documented, I would hope that you are aging via otoliths when working on steelhead age and growth rates.


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## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

Cork Dust said:


> When asked earlier about the ratio of AD clipped steelhead to wild fish, you made the point of stating that the LM receives no plants. Now, you state that as many as a third of hatchery fish planted elsewhere( derived from wild LM broodstock) "stray" to the Little Manistee. Since 2018 planted steelhead have received an AD clip and a CWT via the Mass Marking Study trailer crew's work, even when factoring-in the lack of a 2020 year-class of planted fish there should be a presence of AD clipped steelhead in the LM.
> 
> Why is this important? As fishery research biologists "flesh-out" the internal population dynamics of wild and hatchery origin steelhead to determine the best management course of action to stabilize the Lake Michigan stock, a variety of variables that impact survivorship long term need to be accurately communicated to the sport fishing public both for their buy-in and understanding of steelhead dynamics.
> 
> ...



Cork -
I generally enjoy your perspectives and educational components to your posts, but you're not playing nice in the sandbox right now. The Big M receives a lot of stocked smolts. It is highly plausible that Big M stocked fish returning to Manistee Lake will simply turn right and follow the Lil M salmon/river scent. I am not saying most do, or even offering a quantitative estimation, but we caught clipped steelies in and around the mouth of the Lil M for as long as we had fin clipping, so I personally know they stray there a good bit. I get the impression you don't tie many spawn bags anymore. 

More to the point though, Mark was simply trying to explain his hypothesis based on a low sample size for a run that is way below average. Repeatedly blasting a fisheries biologist with excerpts from technical briefs and peer-reviewed journal linguistics doesn't help anyone. If you want to engage with Mark on this level, please email him directly, but do not bash him in a public forum please. Many of us truly value Mark's willingness to engage and contribute on this forum. These antics will not help this continue.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Benzie Rover said:


> Cork -
> I generally enjoy your perspectives and educational components to your posts, but you're not playing nice in the sandbox right now. The Big M receives a lot of stocked smolts. It is highly plausible that Big M stocked fish returning to Manistee Lake will simply turn right and follow the Lil M salmon/river scent. I am not saying most do, or even offering a quantitative estimation, but we caught clipped steelies in and around the mouth of the Lil M for as long as we had fin clipping, so I personally know they stray there a good bit. I get the impression you don't tie many spawn bags anymore.
> 
> More to the point though, Mark was simply trying to explain his hypothesis based on a low sample size for a run that is way below average. Repeatedly blasting a fisheries biologist with excerpts from technical briefs and peer-reviewed journal linguistics doesn't help anyone. If you want to engage with Mark on this level, please email him directly, but do not bash him in a public forum please. Many of us truly value Mark's willingness to engage and contribute on this forum. These antics will not help this continue.


I stated his responses were inconsistet...is that bashing? 

Wouldn't it be refreshing to know that our fish biologists actually make an effort to remain informed regarding the fish stocks they are charged with managing? Particularly when the studies are being done to inform that forward management of steelhead in Lake Michigan? IF you are going to do the job and postulate about the future, stay informed...it is a job requisite for most vocations. 

Mark had ready access to a Great Lakes Fishery Trust Fund supported study authored by his fellow MDNR employees, Jory Jonas and Ben Turczak, that calculated, based on the steelhead population age structure that roughly 23% of the stock in 2020 would be old enough to not have an adipose clip IF they were hatchery origin fish in 2020, and roughly 11% of the stock in 2021. Given that they work for the MDNR at the Charlevoix Fishery Reseach Station and Mr. Tonello works nearby, as well as reality that all of them are directly involved in the stock management of this species in Lake Michigan waters, this knowledge is a requisite to being effective in your position. Did I post this as a gotcha moment? NO, I was simply trying to resolve confusing statements. . Did I follow up with the data as a gotcha? No, I found it on my own, just as Mr. Tonello could have. Was it fair to state that he was offering conflicting information? Yes. Did I take it any further? NO.

What you construe as "anitcs", I view as requistite knoweldge to be a functional employee There are reasons our Great Lakes fishery continues to struggle, sadly many of them are personnel associated within the management agency charged with that responsibility.

You too, could have engaged me in a PM conversation as well, yet you did not opt to go that route. That, in itself, is an interesting dichotomy... Thanks for sharing your perspective, now you have mine.


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