# Best Muzzleloader



## tnt1960 (Apr 6, 2009)

stickem said:


> love my cva optima w/thumbhole stock...


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## BallsRdragn (Jul 21, 2005)

tnt1960 said:


>


CVA Opt Pro


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## GuppyII (Sep 14, 2008)

Pretty bad when you have to update a brand new $700 gun. 
Custom Savage or Remington with a Pac-nor .458 barrel ....wow. If your half way mechanical its an easy build and a true target quality Muzzy.









bambi makes a cute sandwich


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

GuppyII said:


> Pretty bad when you have to update a brand new $700 gun.
> Custom Savage or Remington with a Pac-nor .458 barrel ....wow. If your half way mechanical its an easy build and a true target quality Muzzy.
> 
> bambi makes a cute sandwich


You don't have to "update a brand new $700 gun". The highest majority of shooters of these rifles, shoot them with no complaints what so ever, with complete and total confidence in them.

However, as with ANY other rifle (production) and/or manufacturer, or, the shooter him or herself, some rifles do not shoot to some shooters expectations. Granted, some expectations are extremely high, while others have medioaker expectations. Some shooters have difficulty with loading and/or charges, while others are very profecient at that task. There can also be many other contributing factors as to why a shooter's rifle doesn't shoot up to their expectations.

Even the much touted new CVA Apex has its problems with hinge pins and head spacing, etc. Its nothing new with ANY production muzzleloader from any manufacturer.

There's a number of contributing factors that could keep an Encore or good rifle from shooting tight groups. First it can be as simple as the shooter and what he/she could be doing wrong and/or shooting form.

The second thing, is to look for any cosmetic contributing factors that may be causing all or part of the problem. Things such as scope mounts, the mounting process, etc., which I'm pretty confident that Jim47 has ruled out. He's probably even exchanged scopes to verify that it was not the scope.

Then it comes down to what mechanical contributing factors that may or may not be contributing to the over all problem. With the Encore or Pro Hunter, some of these mechanical factors are pretty well known. A lose hinge pin can easily contribute to poor groups. Trigger pull and trigger creap combined, can magnify the hinge pin factor. Then add in the Human Factor, and you've taken a couple minor contributing factors and multiplied them greatly.

That said, for minimal cost, most of the mechanical factors can be ruled out. Much cheaper than converting any other muzzleloader (production) to a target quality rifle. And, in most cases, these changes will turn the production Encore or Pro Hunter into a target quality shooting rifle also.


Trigger spring replacement.............. $7.95
Hinge pin..................................... $9.95
Locking Bolt Spring........................ $2.25
HD Fireing Pin Spring...................... $2.95
44# Hammer Spring........................ $7.95
*TOTAL........................................$31.05* plus shipping.
That's pretty darn cheap to make a good shooting rifle a great shooting rifle. Or, fix one or multipal contributing mechanical factors. This is why I asked right off the bat, if his son would sell it for the price of a used older Omega.

The only thing left, is the Human Factor...


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## musicman34 (Oct 7, 2011)

ENCORE said:


> I say the hinge pin, because it can be a big contributor to accuracy. Loose hinge pins can cause the barrel to move in the frame and really affect accuracy and good tight grouping. Honestly and unfortunately, I personally haven't seen an Encore or Pro Hunter that shouldn't have at least a 1x hinge pin. With the rifle open, check for even the slightest movement between the barrel and frame (side to side). *Another really easy check, is if you remove the hinge pin and when you re-install it, you can partially push it in with your finger..... THAT'S WAY TO LOSE*. Also, the hinge pin should take some force to install. Not just a little tap or two and its seated. Of course it shouldn't need a 2# maul to install but, it should be tight to install. My last Encore took a 1x and it tightened it right up. The Pro Hunter that I'm using now, took a 2x right out of the box! One of the guys I shoot with, his Pro Hunter took a 3x. Tightening up that barrel/frame may possibly help. It certainly WILL NOT hurt.
> 
> I say the trigger spring, because I've seen so many different issues and different triggers with the Encore and Pro's. I've seen triggers in different rifles that were absolutely perfect. Few though. Others have a pull weight anywhere from 4# to the highest that I've heard of at 11#. Then there's the creep that can be felt in just about all of them. From just my expierence, when a trigger has a heavier pull and you can feel the creep, never really knowing when its going to go off, it can substancily affect the shooters accurcy/groups. I wittnessed guys shooting and saying that their rifle wasn't worth a crap, then someone else who may not be suspectable to trigger pull and creep, shoot tight groups with it right in front of the owner.
> 
> ...


While I catagorically agree with all of what you said, the part about the trigger creep and "not knowing when the gun is going to go off" is contrary to what I have been taught about shooting accurately. Ideally, to shoot without flinching, you WANT the report of the firearm to surprise you when it goes off. Am I correct?


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## dsconnell (Aug 29, 2007)

DENVAN said:


> I hate when people ask questions like this because like someone once said "opinions are like, well let's say, bellybuttons"."Everybody has one". But I am so out of the loop on this that I have to ask for your opinions and that will give me a starting point. Here goes, Which muzzleloaders are the most state of the art? If you were going to buy one today which one would you look at first. Concidering, ease of use,cost,accuracy, etc.
> :help:


Hands down.... The Ultimate Muzzle Loader.. Me and my brother both own these and there is not a better shooting, more accurate or easier to clean muzzle loader out there that I have seen! And I have 0 quams about shooting a deer at 350 Yards... 

Prior to that I had a TC Triumph - No Comparison what so ever but the Triumph has made a great gun for my daughter!


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

musicman34 said:


> While I catagorically agree with all of what you said, the part about the trigger creep and "not knowing when the gun is going to go off" is contrary to what I have been taught about shooting accurately. Ideally, to shoot without flinching, you WANT the report of the firearm to surprise you when it goes off. Am I correct?


Yes you are correct. However, there's a huge difference not knowing when a rifle will go off because of what most would consider a "good trigger", and a trigger that you can feel it scrapeing while pulling it and not knowing when it will go off.

If you were to check with a shooter that shoots hard core competition centerfire and/or rimfire, would one assume that their rifle triggers have a lot of felt creep? Or, would one assume that their triggers are much better than the "average" trigger without any felt creep? I don't believe hard core competition shooters would tollerate a trigger with felt creep. I believe they prefer a trigger that is clean, crisp without creep. Its one of reasons that many shooters install custom triggers. Timney comes to mind, which was the trigger (furnished) on my first Knight MK-85.

I guess my point is, it is much better to have a clean, crisp and no creep trigger, than to have a trigger which was totally the opposite. With a good trigger, its less likely that a shooter will know when the rifle will discharge. And much more likely with a poor trigger with a lot of creep. You may not know when either will go off but, its one less mental thing when you're not feeling the creep.


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## musicman34 (Oct 7, 2011)

Good answer, as usual. My Encore has what you describe as "trigger creep" but I still get a surprise break when I hear the report. I guess that is why I usually shoot with all shots touching each other at 100 yards. That felt creep that you speak of doesn't seem to hinder me at all. Not boasting by any means, but merely stating how well my particular firearm shoots.


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## old school (Jun 2, 2008)

dsconnell said:


> Hands down.... The Ultimate Muzzle Loader.. Me and my brother both own these and there is not a better shooting, more accurate or easier to clean muzzle loader out there that I have seen! And I have 0 quams about shooting a deer at 350 Yards...
> 
> Prior to that I had a TC Triumph - No Comparison what so ever but the Triumph has made a great gun for my daughter!


I have shot my dads a few times now. WOW, what a gun. I am getting one ASAP, I don't want anything else. Guy told my dad, use a patch and windex a couople times to clean. So easy to clean... shoot great..
can't go wrong.


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## dsconnell (Aug 29, 2007)

Let me know when you are ready old school and I will take you over to his place to see him and customize your gun..


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## old school (Jun 2, 2008)

dsconnell said:


> Let me know when you are ready old school and I will take you over to his place to see him and customize your gun..


what model do you have. The BP express seems to work pretty nice and most economical. He makes lefties I hope? I have shot 4 deer with my dads, and its a little funny shooting left with a right thumb hole:lol:


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## dsconnell (Aug 29, 2007)

BP Express with muzzle break with brown laminate stock.. yes sir they have left handed as well. You can select exactly how you want it if we go there.. shoot me a message when your ready!

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## old school (Jun 2, 2008)

dsconnell said:


> BP Express with muzzle break with brown laminate stock.. yes sir they have left handed as well. You can select exactly how you want it if we go there.. shoot me a message when your ready!
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I will keep this in mind, not this season, but by next season i plan to have one. Thanks!


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

musicman34 said:


> Good answer, as usual. My Encore has what you describe as "trigger creep" but I still get a surprise break when I hear the report. I guess that is why I usually shoot with all shots touching each other at 100 yards. That felt creep that you speak of doesn't seem to hinder me at all. Not boasting by any means, but merely stating how well my particular firearm shoots.


I love hearing about how well they shoot! 

If you were to download the Bellm trigger instructions, without changing your trigger pull weight, you can eliminate that felt creep. Its mearly a little honeing and you'd still have the same trigger and pull, you'd just eliminate the felt creep. The downloadable instructions are free. They're very handy to have, in case you ever have to disassemble your frame. The free downloadable instructions are about a page down on this link.... http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=606


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## musicman34 (Oct 7, 2011)

I have the instructions from Mike already. I got a tune-up kit and some headspace shims and the 1X pin from Bellm just last month. That is what has improved the accuracy on my Encore. But I do have the trigger creep, but like I said, I can live with it for now. I really don't want to tear that thing down again since it is shooting so well. Might be a good winter project.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

musicman34 said:


> I have the instructions from Mike already. *I got a tune-up kit and some headspace shims and the 1X pin from Bellm just last month. That is what has improved the accuracy on my Encore.* But I do have the trigger creep, but like I said, I can live with it for now. I really don't want to tear that thing down again since it is shooting so well. Might be a good winter project.


In bold above, shows again, how another shooter improved his accuracy with just the simple change of a hinge pin. Thank you.

I understand not wanting to do A THING, to a rifle that shoots that well, just prior to the season During the winter and it sets in the safe, it would be a great time to make the last few adjustments/additions. A can of soda says it'll shoot even better


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## obeRON (Dec 15, 2007)

I have an encore and really like it but I made the mistake of shooting an Ultimate ML last fall and this gun will be in my vault in the near future...


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## STG8008 (Sep 14, 2011)

Pretty happy with my Omega w/thumbhole stock, 100yd off a bench, no sled/fixture.


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## rayed (Mar 10, 2003)

I agree with DSConnell . The BP Express made by Ultimate Firearms is an unbelievable gun. I am on there Pro - Staff and just had a new one put together for this season. I put a Leupold on it with an adjustable turit and what a difference it made. When we were siting it in we were figure eighting bullet holes at 200 yds. The new scope is awesome. We have confirmed kills to 627 yds on elk with this gun. Save your money guys and buy one of these guns and you will never hunt with anything else during gun season.


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