# Amount of (Illegal) Baiting in LP?



## Waif

>WingIt< said:


> It means on average that’s the age group that’s facilitating and has facilitated the culture in Michigan of not respecting the law IMO. Its not 20 to 35 year olds that own most of the Private land in the state.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Speaking of lack of respect....Here you are again.


Go buy land and ensue your own law abiding culture on private.
Meanwhile I'll group you with any non law biding under 50. After all , you hunt public....Illegal stands. littering. Baiting.
A multitude of violations. (Hunters under the age of 50 probably that never learned to clean up after themselves or follow laws probably. After all , it's hunters over 35 and older that own land.)


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## trailtrimmer

C20chris said:


> I didn't keep track, but I stumbled across a number of bait piles while bird hunting this year. One of the spots, the people must have spilled some bait out of the back of their truck because there was carrots and beets in the middle of the trail where they parked...
> 
> My guess would be that the OP is spot on and bait use is even more prevalent on private property. The likelihood of being caught for baiting on your own private property is damn near zero.


Private is easier to find as it doesn't move and the owner is a permanent fixture. Add in nice packed down trails, overlooking blinds and stands, etc. A quick drone flight and an officer doesn't even need to walk on the property. 

A public land hunter can bait for a week and leave without a trace.


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## Ieatshrooms

I'm a 36 year old land owner who has a ~55 year old land owner neighbor who runs a big bait pile. Never really bothers me. I have never set out a bait pile in my life and never will. If anything, his baiting probably helps me because they bed on my property and go over to eat his apples at night.


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## Luv2hunteup

I talked with 2 Emmet and a Charlevoix county COs. The biggest violations by far were baiting. This was the end of the first week of firearms.


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## Waif

Have not heard of baiting on the private around me. Blinds that can be seen are focused on ag fields. A couple closer ones , bait would be seeable. Depending on bait of course. But when deer are browsing ag , why bait illegally?
Deer are seen in ag fields near and after dark.
Most seem to be bedded very close of late.

Lacking planted browse this year , my sightings fell off when hunting pressure let up. Deer moved closer to desired food sources. (Secure cover appeals when pressure is highest and I see deer use it and browsing lightly before heading to ag. near last light.)

Have seen the odd carrot this fall here and there on the road.
Corn too , but corn is likely harvest related spills.

I'll plant something next year and see what changes.
Imagine bait would entertain certain (not all) deer bedded near , before heading out to destination fields after dark.
Have killed a deer before that avoided bait on public hunted ground . Tracks in snow told the tale of walking very near a couple baited spots.
Prior experience with potential trouble maybe.


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## langkg

>WingIt< said:


> What would you say the average age of hunting property owners in Michigan is? Mid 50s and up? That is the age demo IMO where all the problems with Michigan start.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Wow. That's rich. I've heard a lot of strange things but that one is way out there! If you're mid 50's or older you're automatically the cause of all of Michigan's problems! Hugghh???


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## C20chris

trailtrimmer said:


> Private is easier to find as it doesn't move and the owner is a permanent fixture. Add in nice packed down trails, overlooking blinds and stands, etc. A quick drone flight and an officer doesn't even need to walk on the property.
> 
> A public land hunter can bait for a week and leave without a trace.


I agree, but without reason to fly the drone there is way too many acres of private land to scour. Only way to get a reason to investigate is if somebody reports the bait pile. That is only happening if the landowner has a big mouth or neighbors that are trespassing.


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## big buck 75

It is obvious that there is a lot of illegal baiting going on and has been. I base this on the amount of bait I see being sold both in bulk and bags. Baiting doesn't affect the area I hunt as it has a lot of agg ground. I see the same amount of deer before and after the bait ban. I do know people it has affected. The guy that is hunting bigger woods and no agg ground and doesn't bait but his neighbor does will see less deer. It is also obvious the DNR either can't or won't enforce the law or that the penalties involved are not enough of a deterrent. Like I said I don't bait nor do I feel the need to bait but given the current situation either increase enforcement efforts and or penalties or legalize baiting IMO.


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## >WingIt<

Waif said:


> Speaking of lack of respect....Here you are again.
> 
> 
> “Go buy land and ensue your own law abiding culture on private”.
> 
> You sure make this sound like it’s more of a choice than a given. Kinda making my point.
> 
> I don’t care if I’m hurting your feelings. I stand by what I’m saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## 98885

BigWoods Bob said:


> I posted this in response to a post in another thread, however, I wanted to make a thread for this single topic, to get everyone's thoughts on it.
> 
> The original post that got me to thinking about this, was someone mentioning the fact that their food plots, were ultimately about worthless, due to the amount of illegal Baiting going on in their area.
> 
> Here was my response:
> ................................................
> 
> Ain't that the Truth!! I have 250ac., in Northern Clare County (all Big Woods and Swamps--zero AG for miles), on which I have over 8ac., of Food Plots. We hunt it VERY lightly and strategically, and I have multiple Cell Cameras to monitor the property and plots. I also have some of the very best security cover in the section.
> 
> Over the past couple of years, we've begun to notice a trend, where the deer sightings (from cell cameras and our observations), have drastically dropped as we roll into November.
> 
> This has left us REALLY scratching our heads, as we typically hunt only Oct. 1st-3rd, and then stay out until at least Oct. 25th (or later, depending on weather). Several of the deer we've taken over the last several seasons, when gutted, we've found to have corn and/or carrots in their stomachs, but it wasn't until this year that I began to fully realize what was likely happening.
> 
> I was buying some vegetables, apple cider, and such at a local "Farm" style market, and made a comment to the kid running the cash register, about the huge piles of Sugar beets, carrots and stacks of corn bags. (Mind you....we are 2 1/2 hour drive from the UP where baiting is legal)
> 
> His response made things click like a light bulb! He said..(and I paraphrase)...."We're selling more bait now, than before the ban, but the largest volume of sales has shifted more towards late October up to right before rifle season."
> 
> When I mentioned that it was illegal to bait, he chuckled, and then he said three things that resonated...
> 
> 1. "It might be illegal to use it, but it's not illegal to sell it."
> 
> 2. "Most guys won't put it out on State Land, but a LOT of the private land guys mostly say screw the DNR....I'll do what I want on my property!"
> 
> 3. "My uncle owns a bunch of private property, and he says you basically HAVE to bait, just to keep deer from being drawn off your property-- he calls it "Defensive Baiting".
> 
> I don't know if the kid was BS'ing me, exaggerating, or not, but in light of what we've observed over the past few years, it makes us start to wonder?
> 
> Anyone else noticed this on their places, or am I grasping at straws??
> 
> ............................................
> 
> What are everyone's thoughts, experiences, etc., on this issue??
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I responded on your thread regarding best deer activity dates. I also notice the big drop in deer activity after bow season starts on my 600 acres. The neighbors bait heavily and I believe it really draws the deer from my plots to those bait stations. They are in my plots religiously until mid September then gone. I had 6 different nice bucks until Sept 13th then they slowly left my plot. The neighbors shot 3 of them the first week of October. I've seen their bait piles and they are huge. It's frustrating. If it were state land, I'd report it. I won't report a neighbor just from knowing the outcome and vandalism or theft from it. Not worth it making enemies of neighbors. I'll work around the problem. I have other options and still kill bucks but it's still frustrating. The local store near me sells bait. The kid that owns the store told me he'll sell more bait since the ban that before it. I bet he wouldn't and lost. He said he sold 30% more bait than when it was legal. That amazed me. No way I'd bait and have someone turn me in and have the DNR watching my property for years to follow. I'm not perfect and sometimes may not wear hunter orange or unload my rifle till I get to my quad or truck. Minor but I'd be ticketed for it and they'd have a reason to be on my property checking for violations. Don't need that hassle or flagged by DNR for it. Baiting hurts more than it helps today for many of us. It wasn't broken so I'll never know why they tried to fix something. CWD wasn't the reason for banning the baiting. If it were, they'd have done it statewide. The UP had some cases in an area near the border so had reason to ban it. The lower only had a few spots with it yet they banned it region wide. More too it than CWD. Regardless, it's banned and we as land owners and hunters trying to follow the laws are being punished when many still bait more than ever. I know people will comment to turn in the neighbors if you don't like it. Well, I don't like it but I won't turn them in. That's why I don't bitch about it till its a topic brought up in discussion.


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## bark river

In my opinion baiting will always happen as long as there is bait to buy, which there always will be and the fine doesn't hurt to much. I am not even sure what the fine for baiting is maybe it says in the hunting digest but that damn thing can be harder to understand than Chinese arithmetic. What if they jumped it to a 100K fine or something would that deter more from doing it? But that would probably never happen either because someone would say its unconstitutional or something I am sure. I think the other factor is how to you police it CO's are already understaffed and underfunded so how often are they even looking for it. And its really hard to prove when guys like my neighbor brag about going out after dark and spreading shelled corn out in a picked corn field.


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## >WingIt<

bark river said:


> In my opinion baiting will always happen as long as there is bait to buy, which there always will be and the fine doesn't hurt to much. I am not even sure what the fine for baiting is maybe it says in the hunting digest but that damn thing can be harder to understand than Chinese arithmetic. What if they jumped it to a 100K fine or something would that deter more from doing it? But that would probably never happen either because someone would say its unconstitutional or something I am sure. I think the other factor is how to you police it CO's are already understaffed and underfunded so how often are they even looking for it. And its really hard to prove when guys like my neighbor brag about going out after dark and spreading shelled corn out in a picked corn field.


Fine should be 1 yr ban first offense. Second lifetime. That would be a good start IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Ranger Ray

When you pass laws that the majority are against, it is usually what happens. Non compliance with the law. Think, prohibition. Hey! Don't shoot the messenger. I'll make a prediction. As deer numbers decrease, baiting will intensify by those doing it. At least those that keep hunting. But that's for another thread.


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## C20chris

bark river said:


> In my opinion baiting will always happen as long as there is bait to buy, which there always will be and the fine doesn't hurt to much. I am not even sure what the fine for baiting is maybe it says in the hunting digest but that damn thing can be harder to understand than Chinese arithmetic. What if they jumped it to a 100K fine or something would that deter more from doing it? But that would probably never happen either because someone would say its unconstitutional or something I am sure. I think the other factor is how to you police it CO's are already understaffed and underfunded so how often are they even looking for it. And its really hard to prove when guys like my neighbor brag about going out after dark and spreading shelled corn out in a picked corn field.


It takes an individual reporting a bait pile to the DNR for them to look for a bait pile.


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## mofo

FYI since we stopped baiting over 10 years ago our sightings and big buck kills increased, deer are skittish over bait no bait deer are more comfortable my observation


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## Boardman Brookies

There is some good entertainment value here:









CO Biweekly Reports


CO Biweekly Reports




www.michigan.gov





The COs are barely scratching the surface on the problem however


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## 98885

Boardman Brookies said:


> There is some good entertainment value here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CO Biweekly Reports
> 
> 
> CO Biweekly Reports
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.michigan.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COs are barely scratching the surface on the problem however


I spoke to one I know. He said they aren't looking for it unless it's reported.


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## DirtySteve

BigWoods Bob said:


> I posted this in response to a post in another thread, however, I wanted to make a thread for this single topic, to get everyone's thoughts on it.
> 
> The original post that got me to thinking about this, was someone mentioning the fact that their food plots, were ultimately about worthless, due to the amount of illegal Baiting going on in their area.
> 
> Here was my response:
> ................................................
> 
> Ain't that the Truth!! I have 250ac., in Northern Clare County (all Big Woods and Swamps--zero AG for miles), on which I have over 8ac., of Food Plots. We hunt it VERY lightly and strategically, and I have multiple Cell Cameras to monitor the property and plots. I also have some of the very best security cover in the section.
> 
> Over the past couple of years, we've begun to notice a trend, where the deer sightings (from cell cameras and our observations), have drastically dropped as we roll into November.
> 
> This has left us REALLY scratching our heads, as we typically hunt only Oct. 1st-3rd, and then stay out until at least Oct. 25th (or later, depending on weather). Several of the deer we've taken over the last several seasons, when gutted, we've found to have corn and/or carrots in their stomachs, but it wasn't until this year that I began to fully realize what was likely happening.
> 
> I was buying some vegetables, apple cider, and such at a local "Farm" style market, and made a comment to the kid running the cash register, about the huge piles of Sugar beets, carrots and stacks of corn bags. (Mind you....we are 2 1/2 hour drive from the UP where baiting is legal)
> 
> His response made things click like a light bulb! He said..(and I paraphrase)...."We're selling more bait now, than before the ban, but the largest volume of sales has shifted more towards late October up to right before rifle season."
> 
> When I mentioned that it was illegal to bait, he chuckled, and then he said three things that resonated...
> 
> 1. "It might be illegal to use it, but it's not illegal to sell it."
> 
> 2. "Most guys won't put it out on State Land, but a LOT of the private land guys mostly say screw the DNR....I'll do what I want on my property!"
> 
> 3. "My uncle owns a bunch of private property, and he says you basically HAVE to bait, just to keep deer from being drawn off your property-- he calls it "Defensive Baiting".
> 
> I don't know if the kid was BS'ing me, exaggerating, or not, but in light of what we've observed over the past few years, it makes us start to wonder?
> 
> Anyone else noticed this on their places, or am I grasping at straws??
> 
> ............................................
> 
> What are everyone's thoughts, experiences, etc., on this issue??
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


My guess is his place probably sells more bait now because SOME places quit carrying it as much. So the ones still selling large volume are likely selling more. 

State land baiting is way down I bird hunt alot and I hunt multiple counties probably 9 counties this season. The first year of the ban it seemed like the usual amount of baitpiles. This season i did not see a single one. I did shoot one grouse with a corn kernel in its crop from somewhere but I never saw a bait pile this year. I cannot comment on private land baiting.


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## Lumberman

I’m actually seeing a lot less bait piles on public land. 

That being said every deer we shot this year was full of corn and there is zero Ag for miles.


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## Liver and Onions

Boardman Brookies said:


> There is some good entertainment value here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CO Biweekly Reports
> 
> 
> CO Biweekly Reports
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.michigan.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COs are barely scratching the surface on the problem however


I scanned thru the most recent period. Looks like baiting problems are near the bottom of the list.

L & O


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## 98885

I buy bait still. I hunt the UP as I suppose others buy bait for also. That accounts for some of it but a few store owners I've spoke to say they can't keep it in their businesses. It goes faster than ever so I'm guessing most private lands haven't slowed down one bit.


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## Big CC

A couple thoughts:
1) As stated, baiters are going to bait. Just because “lots of people” do it, doesn’t mean you should. I am sure lots of people shoot deer before and/or after daylight while riding around in a truck, but that doesn’t mean that others should just because “lots of people” are doing it
2) How about a penalty (maybe not just for baiting) is community service on 11/15 the following year? Obviously never gonna happen, but for some people that means more than money.


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## pescadero

I hunt Clare County state land.

I wasn't running any cams this year - but last year I had lots of deer on cam until about 11/5, and then nothing. 

..and barely saw any deer during the season.


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## aacosta

I agree with others, if they wanted the baiting to stop, they would have to outlaw the sale. Easier for CO to see the gas station selling illegally.


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## Chessieman

"Hey, it use to be legal so I am going to do it!" That is what I hear. I have only baited on time up in Escanaba until I learned it was better to sit between the areas baited. I would down here grab Beets from a buddies field and throw them on certain deer paths thru the hills I made. Teach the small ones and they will teach the small ones the righteous path. How about a $2 refundable on the bait bags. That way there is control of who uses it. Money made could be put to a good use for the Deer like cameras over the bait bags for sale in locations it is not legal.


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## bowhunter426

aacosta said:


> I agree with others, if they wanted the baiting to stop, they would have to outlaw the sale. Easier for CO to see the gas station selling illegally.


How do you regulate shelled corn sold at TSC indented for hobby farms to feed their chickens


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## 22 Chuck

Lots of places selling bait. i dont think the buyers are eatimng it.
Copied from #45
""How about a $2 refundable on the bait bags.""
I think the $2 shold be like the 10 cent deposit on cans--those that pick up slobs trash should be rewarded.


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## aacosta

bowhunter426 said:


> How do you regulate shelled corn sold at TSC indented for hobby farms to feed their chickens


Idk haha, corn maybe the only bait. Unable to sell it by the truck load? No selling of sugar beats or carrots? No selling at gas stations?


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## GIDEON

Boardman Brookies said:


> It is rampant. The ACE hardware in Glennie was loaded a few days before the season. When I left a week later there was basically nothing left. I stick to the natural stuff, acorns.


You found acorns around Glennie?


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## jjlrrw

I think the deer see the cameras and get the heck out of there.


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## NbyNW

Same issue here. I bought my house/property the last year baiting was legal. I baited, but did not hunt it, I wanted to see what was on the property. I had very good deer traffic with bait. I have put in a small food plot and have good deer traffic until I dont every year. The dates change, but the result is the same. 

Im going to put in larger food plots and change up what is in the plot to hopefully help traffic out. 

Personally, I dont care if someone puts bait out. If Im clearing land and putting in food plots for the sole purpose of attracting deer, I dont see it that different from putting out bait. I just spend a lot more time, money, and energy than baiters.


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## Biggbear

>WingIt< said:


> What would you say the average age of hunting property owners in Michigan is? Mid 50s and up? That is the age demo IMO where all the problems with Michigan start.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


All the problems in Michigan are caused by people in their 50's. That's an awful broad brush you paint with Pilgrim. It's also a matter of perspective I guess. I can think of alot of problems in Michigan that have nothing to do with people in their 50s


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## >WingIt<

Biggbear said:


> All the problems in Michigan are caused by people in their 50's. That's an awful broad brush you paint with Pilgrim. It's also a matter of perspective I guess. I can think of alot of problems in Michigan that have nothing to do with people in their 50s


50s and Up*


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Biggbear

>WingIt< said:


> 50s and Up*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


The fact that you made the statement, and then fail to see the error of your ways and defend it is a problem. And I'm guessing you aren't in your 50s or "up" either.


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## >WingIt<

Biggbear said:


> The fact that you made the statement, and then fail to see the error of your ways and defend it is a problem. And I'm guessing you aren't in your 50s or "up" either.


Enlighten me on the error. 30s


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Sasquatch Lives

I have only seen 1 illegal bait pile on public land in the past 2 years. Used to find them all over when legal. Also seems to be fewer people hunting the public land. I suspect most of the illegal baiting is taking place on private land, how is a CO gonna check behind a locked gate?


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## Grandriverrat

bowhunter426 said:


> How do you regulate shelled corn sold at TSC indented for hobby farms to feed their chickens


Ban chickens!!!🤣


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## FullQuiver

Jerry Lamb said:


> Did you report the scumbag game thief?


More times than you can imagine. Big nothing burger. CO said he wasn't willing to try and make a case. Said it was up to me to do make the case. I really don't like to talk about it as it just infuriates me..


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## FullQuiver

C20chris said:


> It takes an individual reporting a bait pile to the DNR for them to look for a bait pile.


They wouldn't even do that for me. I could see bait on the neighbors property next to me. A huge pile. I called nothing was done. I even saw him (the CO)on the road and flagged him down and told him about it. Nothing..


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## Craves

Like APRs, the baiting issue is just one more example of how the DNR/NRC have dropped the ball. 

During the 1st bait ban years ago I met with a DNR representative at the Gladwin office while getting a deer checked ( I don't remember his title, but I think he was a biologist). He suggested that shell corn in small amounts should be the only allowed bait. The corn doesn't last long on the ground because everything in the woods eats it. When baiting was legal, I would put out about 2 soup cans of corn out spread out. I enjoyed watching the birds, chipmunks, squirrels and yes the deer come to browse on it. Saw way more deer during daylight than I ever did when baiting with bags full...but I digress.

Seems to me it would be a lot easier to watch people buy bait and take license numbers down from plates and then go investigate their property rather than wait for complaints and fire up drones...


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## DXT Deer Slayer

Wanna hear a joke? 

-MI DNR-

"It is not ok, to spend time in, scout for sign, and understand where mature whitetails live, in the most beautiful, remote, undisturbed swamps and big woods areas of Michigan, then place a backpack's worth of grain or other attractant in a strategic location to possibly give one a shot opportunity at a buck that you likely could never cross paths with in 10 years of hunting every day in that same country, without bait." (Those that walk 900 yards from their truck to their "set" for a "sit", on their "farm", on the edge of an autumn olive thicket behind a cornfield in hillsdale, will never understand this")

-Also MI DNR-

"Buy a 40 acre parcel in that same remote country, adjoining public land. With no real knowledge of natural plant communities, soils, or equipment operation, go ahead and bulldoze the **** out of a random area of your property, root rake it, create an ideal environment for invasive plant species to take hold, and for soil to erode into the creek. Go ahead and spray it with 2-4d, gly, and any other pesticides you read about online, theyre probably safe. Go ahead and fertilize, and plant cereal grains and birdsfoot trefoil in the middle of the woods, to attract deer into shooting range. Seems right. We fully support this."

But oh, you big woods bowhunter carrying the bait in, we'll be looking for you!


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## DXT Deer Slayer

** I only throw in the jab at flatland hillsdale hunters as a blanket statement of symbolism, representing those that in their heart of hearts, truly belive, that they are superior, as food plotters. Im well aware that many sportsmen who do most of their serious whitetail hunting in ag country, are also top notch outdoorsman who do bad** things in the hunting and fishing world all over the country and globe. Take no offense.


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## wildcoy73

can tell ya it's happening on Southern public land. and it alters the deer movement big time. went from seeing deer all day long from July to November 12th. 
than it just stop. once in a while I'm getting a night pic. 
did find one of the bait piles last weekend. was not hard to find in the snow. follow the trails right to it. pulled the deer right out of the oaks I hunted.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## 98885

Biggbear said:


> All the problems in Michigan are caused by people in their 50's. That's an awful broad brush you paint with Pilgrim. It's also a matter of perspective I guess. I can think of alot of problems in Michigan that have nothing to do with people in their 50s


Your correct, that's pretty specific and untrue. IMO, most of the baiting is done by those that started baiting in areas of high hunter numbers in northern Michigan. Then new hunters within the last 30 years have adopted this method to have better success at seeing deer. Hunters that had or have access to private property and food plots have resisted a little more. Southern Mi seems all but void of baiting as agriculture Trump's bait piles. Sure some private land owners with wooded property not real close to Ag baited a little but it's not popular like it is north of say Saginaw county. Age has zero to do with the group that bait deer in Michigan.


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## eye-sore

I bet the bait pile guys think the same things about your food plots. Just cause you plant it doesnt make it any different or more ethical. Stop hunting food sources during the rut and you'll see more deer


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## Lucky Dog

I would predict that the folks complaining about not seeing deer because the neighbor is baiting would still not see deer if the neighbor stopped baiting.
It's the classic Michigan deer hunters syndrome..... I didn't kill a deer so it is someone else's fault.


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## BigWoods Bob

Wow!! Lots of great insights!! 

The thing that is really frustrating for me, is trying to follow the rules, while a LOT of the surrounding properties are not. It really kinda makes you lose faith in your fellow "Sportsmem"......

I'm NOT "anti-bait".... when it was legal, we baited. While we generally did NOT hunt over the bait, we placed it in central locations, and hunted travel corridors between bedding cover and the bait--it definitely helped keep deer on the property. That said....if I had to chose between the two (food plots or bait) I would prefer not baiting.

So.......In an attempt to "follow the rules", we've recently been planting more food plots. While these definitely DO help, once the baiting starts to "ramp up" on neighboring properties near the end of October, the number of deer using them plummets, and just when our hunting "should" start to get really good (Rut), it actually has been slowing down tremendously. 

I don't know/have an answer.....it's just REALLY frustrating! Maybe the guy at the local market had a point, when he said that his Uncle, who owned a large parcel of land, still baits, because he "has to", to keep deer from being drawn off to surrounding bait piles. As he called it...."Defensive Baiting".

Thoughts.....?????

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## BigWoods Bob

eye-sore said:


> I bet the bait pile guys think the same things about your food plots. Just cause you plant it doesnt make it any different or more ethical. Stop hunting food sources during the rut and you'll see more deer


But it DOES make it LEGAL, and THAT really IS the point!!! 

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## BigWoods Bob

Lucky Dog said:


> I would predict that the folks complaining about not seeing deer because the neighbor is baiting would still not see deer if the neighbor stopped baiting.
> It's the classic Michigan deer hunters syndrome..... I didn't kill a deer so it is someone else's fault.


You own your property, or are you just "guessing" ?????

You have ZERO idea of how each person sets up and hunts their property, nor their level of experience. 

That was just a smart a** comment you made, trying to deflect away from the real topic/issue, and frankly reeks of a "Superiority Complex"...i.e.-- "You just don't know how to hunt".

For what its worth....we still passed several 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 bucks on my property this season, because we had a couple 4 1/2's we were targeting. My initial post, was directed at the fact that generally, the amount of deer movement had plummeted (at a time when it "should" have picked up), NOT because we couldn't shoot a deer!!

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## sureshot006

Lucky Dog said:


> I would predict that the folks complaining about not seeing deer because the neighbor is baiting would still not see deer if the neighbor stopped baiting.
> It's the classic Michigan deer hunters syndrome..... I didn't kill a deer so it is someone else's fault.


Yea it seems more likely a change in sighting is simply a change in deer patterns around rut and human intrusion.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

sureshot006 said:


> Yea it seems more likely a change in sighting is simply a change in deer patterns around rut and human intrusion.


Historical data would suggest otherwise...at least for our property (which is the only one I can accurately speak to)! 

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Ranger Ray

Food sources are a huge factor in deer patterns.


----------



## Martin Looker

After 24 years in the military I don't worry much about a safe place. My Mom taught me that if you are going to bicker you need to set down and shut up.


----------



## sureshot006

I'm surprised nobody is illegally baiting until the first week or 2 of nov


----------



## >WingIt<

johnIV said:


> Your correct, that's pretty specific and untrue. IMO, most of the baiting is done by those that started baiting in areas of high hunter numbers in northern Michigan. Then new hunters within the last 30 years have adopted this method to have better success at seeing deer. Hunters that had or have access to private property and food plots have resisted a little more. Southern Mi seems all but void of baiting as agriculture Trump's bait piles. Sure some private land owners with wooded property not real close to Ag baited a little but it's not popular like it is north of say Saginaw county. Age has zero to do with the group that bait deer in Michigan.


Again… 50s and up


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## John Hine

I pound out a bunch of miles on state land in my area every year & im just not seeing all these bait piles people speak of. There is a private 80 at the beginning of one of the roads I turn down & you can see 2 active corn feeders from the road. There are runways crossing the road & fresh tracks every day. Right up to the week before rifle season when all the goofballs come up & start slamming doors & making noise, which pushes off the mature does, taking the bucks with them, thus leaving young doe & button bucks owning the food plots. Many landowners have one blind on their 40 & hunt regardless of wind or situation. Bump a mature doe & you might not see her or her group for the rest of the season.

I don’t pretend to know what it’s like in zone 3, I’ve never hunted there. My whole hunting life has been Northern lower mi & the western U P. I can kill bucks here with or without bait. What I have a hard time doing is introducing young or new hunters to the sport where we May go into the woods 20 sits & not see a deer.

I stopped caring if I shoot a buck years ago, I’m much more interested in passing on this great sport to the next generation.

So after all that bla bla, my point is sometimes the landowner is his own worst enemy, not the neighbors bait pile!


----------



## LITTLECLEO

Plain and simple BAIT PILES are the lazy man or woman’s way of hunting!!!!

The way I see most people are to darn lazy to try and figure these AWESOME creatures out,scouting for one most never do,they stick to the same routine year after year,and most don’t consider the amount of human intrusion that amps up,a couple weeks prior to opening of gun,those same woods are so peaceful from Oct 1 - Nov 1 after that it goes down hill from there,and it’s always someone else’s fault that u didn’t see or harvest a animal,certainly not your fault,lol

Most only spend a few days in the field a year,but they call themselves HUNTERS,really,lol 🤣🤣🤣🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## BigWoods Bob

sureshot006 said:


> I'm surprised nobody is illegally baiting until the first week or 2 of nov


Never said that...said it really ramps up, in the few weeks preceding firearms opener. 

By the way....do you even own hunting property in Zone 1 or 2 ?

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## sureshot006

BigWoods Bob said:


> Never said that...said it really ramps up, in the few weeks preceding firearms opener.
> 
> By the way....do you even own hunting property in Zone 1 or 2 ?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I hunt private property in NELP. Don't own it but have been hunting it for close to 30 yrs. No ag for quite a distance.


----------



## 98885

sureshot006 said:


> I'm surprised nobody is illegally baiting until the first week or 2 of nov


I think gun hunters that don't bow hunt start baiting about a week before the opener. That's what's happening around the place I rifle hunt. Bow hunters start in early Sept.


----------



## mbrewer

sureshot006 said:


> I think it's similar in Kansas.


Thou shall not feed the King's deer, wherever they be. Carve outs are hand outs. 

There are still no deer listed on any of my property deeds. Let's change that, then we can talk about what I can do that the serfs can't.


----------



## Liver and Onions

>WingIt< said:


> It's my opinion that most that bait are doing it on private ground and that percentage is well over half the hunters. That's all opinion of course.


I think that would be true in my area of the SLP. Very few bait anymore at the SGAs. Pretty hard to do with a small parking area at the road and not be seen by someone.
No secret as to who is buying the bait in the SLP. 

L & O


----------



## snortwheeze

Slimits said:


> They should just drop the ban. Plenty of evidence out there that cwd isnt going to spread. Sure theres some cwd around but its been in other states for years. Deer pop are still good



Yes they should since it makes no difference.. Had someone I know while hunting shiawassee tell me his buddy he sat with that at a CO said he goes through 2 pairs of shoes and year busting guy's baiting... He was worried. I said it has been that way for quite some time now.

That CO must be walking wrong areas...I could walk 2 miles in one area and find 10 different bait piles 🤣...

Hunt how ya want. I like runways, scrapes, rubs, and deer ****.....


----------



## brookie1

People don't even try to kill a deer legally. I wonder how that feels? And what if it's a nice buck they poached? Do they pay a taxidermist so they can remember the big "hunt"?


----------



## onenationhere

I'm sure our neighbors were baiting. They were also "sighting in" on Saturday and Sunday. They must be pretty good at sighting in because they only needed one shot. Weird thing is that they sighted in at odd times of the day, very early in the morning and right before last light.


----------



## John Hine

All good fellow hunters✌All good👊


----------



## Liver and Onions

Luv2hunteup said:


> Maybe a good compromise would be to follow Ohio’s example. Illegal on public land and unlimited on private. That would redirect law enforcement to a smaller area freeing them up for high crimes and misdemeanors. If you read the biweekly reports that’s where a majority of their enforcement activity seems to take place. A side benefit would be less neighbor calling on neighbor for trivial items like bird and squirrel feeding.


This idea has been bounced around since the DNR lowered the legal amount of bait from 5 gallons to 2 gallons maybe 15 -20 years ago. 5 gallons per location spread out over 250 sq. ft. 90% of illegal baiting would stop. Most only carry in a pail full of bait, would some do more than 5 gallons.......of course. So there would still be something to complain about.

L & O


----------



## onenationhere

Was excited when the ban was put in place because I wanted to see how it would impact hunting and daytime deer movement. Had read a lot that deer sightings would increase because deer would move to a more natural pattern and not one that is artificially created due to bait piles. I think people just carried on with baiting, those that don't want to break the law get screwed. Then you read or hear about DNR officers stretched so thin that they can hardly investigate complaints. So do you call or what ? will it matter ? Just wish people would follow the rules.


----------



## Waif

>WingIt< said:


> Waif, I know you dislike me to a great extent and you feel like I personally attacked you. I’m not. I can tell your not a problem and you try and do things the right way mostly by your passion.
> 
> My whole point is that the 50 and up crowd hold alot of influence over our hunting culture and always will. They will own most of the private land, hold influential positions and be dads, grandfathers, mothers and grandmothers that are responsible for guiding new hunters.
> 
> If these individuals at any given time be it now or in the future openly choose to disregard game laws all it’s doing is perpetuating the cycle.
> 
> Given the amount of gripe about private land baiting I think it’s safe to say there is a problem currently.
> 
> That’s my whole point
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


No personal dislike. Don't even know you . ( I'll shoot your choice deer though if you don't first....)

If I had notice of illegal baiting affecting my deer sightings I'd be annoyed too.
I don't bait illegally to compete with neighbors. Nor when It's legal during the disabled hunt. 
Don't use the A.P.R. waiver either then during that hunt. Not that I agree with the A.P.R. in a C.W.D.zone, but in consideration of neighboring hunters and of the "experiment" I disagree with. ( I do agree with the waiver existing though. )
A sense of a more even playing field exists among some of us neighbors as a result. Deliberately. Without the neighbors asking for any such.
Yes regulations are part of that. But are not the only reason I hunt as I do. 

I just don't see playing screw your neighbor by illegally baiting being anything I'd be interested in. 
So far the hunting neighbors /landowners have been great about not messing up each others hunting deliberately. Should be like that everywhere. Good luck regulating such.
And I don't interview anyone violating the ban to know the varied whys. Let alone thier age.

A younger guest baited across the road the last(?) year it was legal.
Into big deer ect..But missed the deer movement trending ,behavior, and reactions that may have helped using bait. Leading to no success.
Maybe better hunting was found elsewhere after? As he didn't return in following seasons.

I'm just debating age is not the causation for discontent , and for regulations not being adhered to.
You offered an age group. Vs. a behavior that spans multiple generations.


----------



## JS714

brookie1 said:


> ..
> 
> 
> Your post is unfair to the DNR on many levels. Let's start with the baiting laws. Those were put into place by the NRC, not the DNR. If it were up to the DNR baiting would have stayed completely banned back in 2008. The NRC was told by the DNR in 2011 not to bring baiting back but they did anyway. Then when the NRC banned it again they came up with these half assed rules allowing baiting in the UP and a couple special seasons.
> 
> Now let's talk about banning the sale of bait. For starters, the DNR doesn't make laws, we took that away from them in 1996, so either the legislature or the NRC would have to ban the sale of bait. Next, baiting is still legal in parts of the state, so please explain to me how you envision this working. And bear in mind you are talking about banning the sale of vegetables. I have no idea how that could possibly be accomplished considering produce can be bought at every grocery store and farm stand throughout the state.
> 
> And lastly, you want COs to take down license plate numbers of vehicles and then follow these people around. For starters, you don't know if the person driving the vehicle is even registered to it. Also the vehicle may be registered to an address down state while the vehicle is now up north somewhere. How would the CO figure out where the vehicle is going? It could be a friends property somewhere or maybe some state land.
> 
> Your post sounds like the typical nonsense I read on facebook, and unfortunately it has spread here like some cancer.
> 
> You don't need to respond. There is no way I would get any type of lucid response anyway.


LOL...You make the easy sound incredibly difficult. Hope you don't live your whole life that way. There are easy solutions and I only named one. In your mind apparently there's a whole bunch of bait being bought in borrowed vehicles, LOL. What a joke. They don't need to follow anyone...quick check of the plate gives an address. See...easy compared to your following someone, A quick visit to that address will make anyone who is illegally baiting sweat a bit...might even show them the light. Again though...to me it's not as half baked as APRs and January antlerless hunts. And you're fooling yourself if you think the DNR doesn't have a say in our wild game regulations.


----------



## mbrewer

Waif said:


> No personal dislike. Don't even know you . ( I'll shoot your choice deer though if you don't first....)
> 
> If I had notice of illegal baiting affecting my deer sightings I'd be annoyed too.
> I don't bait illegally to compete with neighbors. Nor when It's legal during the disabled hunt.
> Don't use the A.P.R. waiver either then during that hunt. Not that I agree with the A.P.R. in a C.W.D.zone, but in consideration of neighboring hunters and of the "experiment" I disagree with. ( I do agree with the waiver existing though. )
> A sense of a more even playing field exists among some of us neighbors as a result. Deliberately. Without the neighbors asking for any such.
> Yes regulations are part of that. But are not the only reason I hunt as I do.
> 
> I just don't see playing screw your neighbor by illegally baiting being anything I'd be interested in.
> So far the hunting neighbors /landowners have been great about not messing up each others hunting deliberately. Should be like that everywhere. Good luck regulating such.
> And I don't interview anyone violating the ban to know the varied whys. Let alone thier age.
> 
> A younger guest baited across the road the last(?) year it was legal.
> Into big deer ect..But missed the deer movement trending ,behavior, and reactions that may have helped using bait. Leading to no success.
> Maybe better hunting was found elsewhere after? As he didn't return in following seasons.
> 
> I'm just debating age is not the causation for discontent , and for regulations not being adhered to.
> You offered an age group. Vs. a behavior that spans multiple generations.


I don't know how anyone could not like you waif. Really I don't.

If anyone does, please tell me so I can too.


----------



## brookie1

JS714 said:


> LOL...You make the easy sound incredibly difficult. Hope you don't live your whole life that way. There are easy solutions and I only named one. In your mind apparently there's a whole bunch of bait being bought in borrowed vehicles, LOL. What a joke. They don't need to follow anyone...quick check of the plate gives an address. See...easy compared to your following someone, A quick visit to that address will make anyone who is illegally baiting sweat a bit...might even show them the light. Again though...to me it's not as half baked as APRs and January antlerless hunts. And you're fooling yourself if you think the DNR doesn't have a say in our wild game regulations.


You're delusional. A couple hundred COs in the entire state and you want them to run surveillance at the thousands of places selling bait and follow people in an effort to catch them baiting. Unbelievable. And I didn't say that the DNR doesn't have a say in game laws, just that the NRC doesn't always follow their recommendations.

And I'm waiting for this genius plan on how you would regulate the sale of vegetables.


----------



## mbrewer

JS714 said:


> LOL...You make the easy sound incredibly difficult. Hope you don't live your whole life that way. There are easy solutions and I only named one. In your mind apparently there's a whole bunch of bait being bought in borrowed vehicles, LOL. What a joke. They don't need to follow anyone...quick check of the plate gives an address. See...easy compared to your following someone, A quick visit to that address will make anyone who is illegally baiting sweat a bit...might even show them the light. Again though...to me it's not as half baked as APRs and January antlerless hunts. And you're fooling yourself if you think the DNR doesn't have a say in our wild game regulations.


Buying vegetables that are labeled bait isn't probable cause to begin an investigation, let alone conduct a search. You own guns? Show me where you keep them so I can make sure it's safe. Is that alcohol on your breath? 

All because you can't shoot a deer. No thanks.


----------



## mbrewer

brookie1 said:


> And I'm waiting for this genius plan on how you would regulate the sale of vegetables.


Not difficult to do. Price controls. Make it so painful that no one buys vegetables and if that doesn't work we move onto cereal grains and so on.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.


----------



## >WingIt<

Waif said:


> No personal dislike. Don't even know you . ( I'll shoot your choice deer though if you don't first....)
> 
> If I had notice of illegal baiting affecting my deer sightings I'd be annoyed too.
> I don't bait illegally to compete with neighbors. Nor when It's legal during the disabled hunt.
> Don't use the A.P.R. waiver either then during that hunt. Not that I agree with the A.P.R. in a C.W.D.zone, but in consideration of neighboring hunters and of the "experiment" I disagree with. ( I do agree with the waiver existing though. )
> A sense of a more even playing field exists among some of us neighbors as a result. Deliberately. Without the neighbors asking for any such.
> Yes regulations are part of that. But are not the only reason I hunt as I do.
> 
> I just don't see playing screw your neighbor by illegally baiting being anything I'd be interested in.
> So far the hunting neighbors /landowners have been great about not messing up each others hunting deliberately. Should be like that everywhere. Good luck regulating such.
> And I don't interview anyone violating the ban to know the varied whys. Let alone thier age.
> 
> A younger guest baited across the road the last(?) year it was legal.
> Into big deer ect..But missed the deer movement trending ,behavior, and reactions that may have helped using bait. Leading to no success.
> Maybe better hunting was found elsewhere after? As he didn't return in following seasons.
> 
> I'm just debating age is not the causation for discontent , and for regulations not being adhered to.
> You offered an age group. Vs. a behavior that spans multiple generations.


And I would agree with most of this. Except I would contend that given the property ownership numbers baby boomers and up have a greater influence on said behavior being allowed on private land currently. Be it that they are either doing it themselves or letting others do it. Given the numbers I don’t really see how this could be argued. 

I’m contending there is a problem on the team, not pointing to any one player.


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## BigWoods Bob

JS714 said:


> To me, the baiting ban is just another thing the DNR does half way. The same way APRs and January antlerless hunts make no sense when mixed together (Yes! I'm still ranting about that! LOL) Making baiting or feeding illegal and allowing it to still be sold shows they again cannot walk and chew gum. The baiting bothers me less though as we're on private land, don't bait, and really don't see a difference; as we sit between some pretty large agriculture fields around us. Neighbors probably don't bait, but who knows? We put in food plots (I call them deer time wasters) and see pretty much the same numbers from spring thru late fall. The original post spoke of not being illegal to sell bait, but even so, it wouldn't take much imagination for the DNR to put a big crimp on baiting if they really wanted to. I mean, how hard is it to have a CO in an unmarked vehicle pull into a parking lot and write license plate numbers down of those buying bait and maybe paying them a visit in the next few days? Some might bristle at that...but the buying of bait "should" be no less a reason to visit than it being reported.


It seems logical, however, I'm not sure the DNR has the authority to regulate what's sold...they can only act once it's "used illegally". So I really wonder if they could actually do what you proposed??

I had a good friend, who was a local Cop. He got moved to the midnight shift one year, and was sitting near the local drinking establishments, and following drivers when they left, late at night. If they drove erratically, he pulled them over. I think he made something like 165 drunk driving arrests one year. Well....eventually, the owners of the drinking establishments, got wind of what was going on, and complained to the City council and local businesses group.

Well, It wasn't long before the Chief called him in and told him to stop sitting on the Bars, and that he could only pull "drunks" over if he observed the erratic driving, while on normal patrol, or because of a citizen complaint. That didn't sit well with him, and he had enough time in to retire, so he told the Chief to go to hell, and retired.

I asked him how it was possible that the Council could do that, and he said....they said that it wasn't illegal to drink....just to drive drunk, and that the Police were hurting their business by sitting on the Bars. Rather...the Police needed to observe the erratic drive separately from the Bar, if they were going to pull someone over. 

It made zero sense to me, and really pissed me off, as my brother was killed by a drunk driver after he left a bar. It did, however enlighten me to the fact, that things that "seem" to be common sense...often aren't!

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## brookie1

mbrewer said:


> Not difficult to do. Price controls. Make it so painful that no one buys vegetables and if that doesn't work we move onto cereal grains and so on.
> 
> The beatings will continue until morale improves.


We could regulate firearms that way. 10,000.00 per bullet. I'm off to the grocery store. Anyone need any bags of carrots or apples while we can still buy them?


----------



## >WingIt<

If they made the penalty for baiting painful enough people would stop. It just isn’t right now. Permanent Loss of license second offense. I think that would do it. Even with funding and man power restrictions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## mbrewer

>WingIt< said:


> And I would agree with most of this. Except I would contend that given the property ownership numbers baby boomers and up have a greater influence on said behavior being allowed on private land currently. Be it that they are either doing it themselves or letting others do it. Given the numbers I don’t really see how this could be argued.
> 
> I’m contending there is a problem on the team, not pointing to any one player.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


I knew where you were going from the beginning and agree in principal. Unfortunately it's a meaningless, big deal point.

Wanna make it meaningful? Allow them the same benefit of doubt you're allowing yourself. Playing the cards they were dealt by previous generations.


----------



## mbrewer

>WingIt< said:


> If they made the penalty for baiting painful enough people would stop. It just isn’t right now. Permanent Loss of license second offense. I think that would do it. Even with funding and man power restrictions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


It has to be proportionate but restricting access to people who can't follow the rules is the right way to address this. Putting a family in the poor house because POS Dad couldn't not bait the deer would be disproportionate punishment for a misdemeanor offense. Taking away his legal ability to pursue game punishes the offender.

It won't work of course but what law does? Laws punish behavior, they don't cure it.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

mbrewer said:


> You're trolling, I'll join you.
> 
> If you were a real farmer and not just a deer farmer you'd have a point. A weak one, but still a point. That point would be with the DNR not hunters, public or otherwise.
> 
> To have a real point you'd need for someone who can (it ain't the DNR) to mandate you to feed their deer. That ain't happening, ever and neither is your point.
> 
> Blaming others for your hard work is as novel as it is untrue. Ain't nobody buying that. Throw another log on the fire and pretend that your situation isn't exactly as you intended it to be.


Does 40 acres of hay count?


----------



## mbrewer

Luv2hunteup said:


> Does 40 acres of hay count?


Yes. Total up your losses and send the bill to me and I'll file it for you.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

mbrewer said:


> Yes. Total up your losses and send the bill to me and I'll file it for you.


No need I make more retired than most. Hobby farming is just that.

I’m sure if the DNR took a survey of all license buyers and asked if hunters wanted better public land deer hunting funded by only by those who utilize it the results would be an overwhelming yes.


----------



## JS714

mbrewer said:


> Yes. Total up your losses and send the bill to me and I'll file it for you.


There are losses? Good grief don't tell my wife! I keep telling her I want one more good 80 acre piece and she wants a place on a lake near TC. But, I don't shop or fish, so it's a stalemate right now. She doesn't need more ammunition for her side (I have three daughters that already prop that side up). Thank God none of them belong to this forum. No more speaking of losses, please. 😲 To add to the topic, baiting is illegal (well, for at least the most part), so it's bad (well, for at least the most part)...but it's rarely enforced (well, for at least the most part). You can thank the state for those clear, cut and dried rules.


----------



## Wild Thing

mbrewer said:


> 4th degree is just a fancy name for an advanced case of 3rd degree. 😁
> 
> Where baiting is illegal no one should do it. Period.
> 
> Food plots are legal, useful and beneficial and they aren't regulated based on the similarities shared with actual, as defined by law, baiting or by motive. Period.
> 
> You should know and I hope you do that my interest is almost always geared towards making points, not friends and not enemies either. For you in particular, you can remove the almost in every case. I have nothing but respect for you and how you operate and have no problem admitting it.
> 
> You and I have differences but they're honest differences, I respect that too.


The feelings are absolutely mutual here MB. I have never known you to pick sides in any debate other that to point out pros, cons or sticking points for each side of the argument. You have a unique way of raising questions so that others maybe look at issues from another perspective.

I have said it many times before and I’ll say it again - even though hunting over either bait or food plots has never been my preferred method of hunting, it matters not to me whether baiting is allowed or banned. I just firmly believe that it should be the same for the entire state and that if it is banned there should be strict enforcement of the ban, enough so that it creates a level playing field.

I do not believe (nor will I ever) that baiting and food plots are one in the same. Those who insist that they are should probably not hold their breath until food plots are banned because it ain’t ever gonna happen.

For the record ( special attention WingIt). I am a landowner, I am over 50 years of age (although thanks to hard work and wise investing I was able to acquire much of my land before age 50), and I have been planting food plots since the mid-1980’s. Unlike the profile that WingIt suggests, however, I have never violated a fish or game law, I don’t allow any of the guests on my property to violate any laws, and every one of the many game animals I have killed over the years has been 100% legal and 100% fair chase. I have zero intentions of ever violating the baiting ban just because I have private property and it may be easier to get away with it. It isn’t going to happen, period.


----------



## >WingIt<

Wild Thing said:


> The feelings are absolutely mutual here MB. I have never known you to pick sides in any debate other that to point out pros, cons or sticking points for each side of the argument. You have a unique way of raising questions so that others maybe look at issues from another perspective.
> 
> I have said it many times before and I’ll say it again - even though hunting over either bait or food plots has never been my preferred method of hunting, it matters not to me whether baiting is allowed or banned. I just firmly believe that it should be the same for the entire state and that if it is banned there should be strict enforcement of the ban, enough so that it creates a level playing field.
> 
> I do not believe (nor will I ever) that baiting and food plots are one in the same. Those who insist that they are should probably not hold their breath until food plots are banned because it ain’t ever gonna happen.
> 
> For the record ( special attention WingIt). I am a landowner, I am over 50 years of age (although thanks to hard work and wise investing I was able to acquire much of my land before age 50), and I have been planting food plots since the mid-1980’s. Unlike the profile that WingIt suggests, however, I have never violated a fish or game law, I don’t allow any of the guests on my property to violate any laws, and every one of the many game animals I have killed over the years has been 100% legal and 100% fair chase. I have zero intentions of ever violating the baiting ban just because I have private property and it may be easier to get away with it. It isn’t going to happen, period.














Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## mbrewer

Wild Thing said:


> The feelings are absolutely mutual here MB. I have never known you to pick sides in any debate other that to point out pros, cons or sticking points for each side of the argument. You have a unique way of raising questions so that others maybe look at issues from another perspective.
> 
> I have said it many times before and I’ll say it again - even though hunting over either bait or food plots has never been my preferred method of hunting, it matters not to me whether baiting is allowed or banned. I just firmly believe that it should be the same for the entire state and that if it is banned there should be strict enforcement of the ban, enough so that it creates a level playing field.
> 
> I do not believe (nor will I ever) that baiting and food plots are one in the same. Those who insist that they are should probably not hold their breath until food plots are banned because it ain’t ever gonna happen.
> 
> For the record ( special attention WingIt). I am a landowner, I am over 50 years of age (although thanks to hard work and wise investing I was able to acquire much of my land before age 50), and I have been planting food plots since the mid-1980’s. Unlike the profile that WingIt suggests, however, I have never violated a fish or game law, I don’t allow any of the guests on my property to violate any laws, and every one of the many game animals I have killed over the years has been 100% legal and 100% fair chase. I have zero intentions of ever violating the baiting ban just because I have private property and it may be easier to get away with it. It isn’t going to happen, period.


I'm not ready to kiss and make up just yet so I'll pretend I don't like and or agree with everything you said about me. I skipped over the other stuff you said. 😆


----------



## >WingIt<

Wild Thing said:


> The feelings are absolutely mutual here MB. I have never known you to pick sides in any debate other that to point out pros, cons or sticking points for each side of the argument. You have a unique way of raising questions so that others maybe look at issues from another perspective.
> 
> I have said it many times before and I’ll say it again - even though hunting over either bait or food plots has never been my preferred method of hunting, it matters not to me whether baiting is allowed or banned. I just firmly believe that it should be the same for the entire state and that if it is banned there should be strict enforcement of the ban, enough so that it creates a level playing field.
> 
> I do not believe (nor will I ever) that baiting and food plots are one in the same. Those who insist that they are should probably not hold their breath until food plots are banned because it ain’t ever gonna happen.
> 
> For the record ( special attention WingIt). I am a landowner, I am over 50 years of age (although thanks to hard work and wise investing I was able to acquire much of my land before age 50), and I have been planting food plots since the mid-1980’s. Unlike the profile that WingIt suggests, however, I have never violated a fish or game law, I don’t allow any of the guests on my property to violate any laws, and every one of the many game animals I have killed over the years has been 100% legal and 100% fair chase. I have zero intentions of ever violating the baiting ban just because I have private property and it may be easier to get away with it. It isn’t going to happen, period.


Do you understand how stupid the idea that because you don’t do something no one in that wide age demo does. I mean honestly my guy.

Ill drop this here for you though. 20MADEBYYOU

You’re welcome 



Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## snortwheeze

Scout 2 said:


> I get the impression t hat many on this thread have a bad case of A## burn because they have to hunt public land. Some posts told them whaty they had to do over a few years so they could own their own land to but they would rather run around and bitch about someone else. Call me part of the problem because unless I find the bait on my land I have better things to do than cry over what my neighbors do. I guess that is why we have been on great terms for all these years. I plant food plots because I like to do that and I use to hunt over them. Grandsons still hunt them when they are here. None of my business what goes on aff my land


Yup do what you want I'll do what I want, pretty simple. Wanna argue I'll argue with the "better half" about something..... know a few north that were seeing more deer then I for a certain reason. Did I care, no, not in the least bit.. Did I hunt the way I wanted and didn't see a deer. Sure did but enjoyed every minute !!




sniper said:


> I love how everyone here knows a CO in this thread. Lol. I haven’t seen one of those in 25 years around my area.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman



I do matter of fact Names J#&$.... See him every year on a cripple hunt. Great guy. Also puts WAY MORE THEN 2 gallons out for us cripples..... He says dumbest thing DNR even talks about. Doesn't ever even investigate when told about it unless dump truck pile of bait. Also haven't shot a deer off the bait while hunting there. It's a giant alalfa-clover field. Tell em every year forget bait 🤣

I'm all good either which. One thing I know is we're all hunters and there's enough left wing nut jobs out there that don't like "*US" IN THE 1ST PLACE.

HOW ABOUT "WE" ALL STICK TOGETHER.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU'LL THE REST OF WHAT WE HAVE TO ENJOY. HOW EVER THE HELL YOU DECIDE TO DO SO 👍🏻👍🏻*


----------



## 7mmsendero

mbrewer said:


> In theory no choice exists, hard or otherwise. Firearms must be unloaded until legal shooting hours. Claiming a deer could have been shot but wasn't, isn't all that praise worthy if the reason he could have been shot is also against the regs.


I’m pretty sure it’s legal to look at deer with binoculars prior to shooting hours, so I’m not really following you here.


----------



## DXT Deer Slayer

Im somewhat disappointed I couldn't drum up more discussion on the topic with a post earlier in the thread.... but ill try again.

Which poses a greater detriment to the _overall_ health of the land youre hunting on?

-a few small 'bait scars', (exposed soil), where bait is placed and consumed

Or 

-clearing of the native vegetation, possible stripping of all organic soil by newbie dozer aficionados, tillage, exposed soil running into your creeks and drainages, an ideal location for invasive plant species to germinate and proliferate, multiple sprayings of herbicides, and introduction of plant species that shouldn't be there, many of which can become invasive in nature. 

That question isnt so much geared at ag-land environments, theyre already pretty disturbed. More so - in northern hardwoods, boreal forest, mixed confier covers and similar environments. Of which, judging by the amount of f-150's pulling compact tractors with food plot tools in the northern lower and Upper, LOTS of new plotting is happening in.

Im pro-bait, Im pro - responsible plot. My favorite time of year as a young man was late season bow and muzz, trying to bait a big buck out of some pretty remote country. It worked, so well, if you did it right. There are very subtle tricks required to bring one out in daylight. It was fun, great exercise, taught you a heck of a lot about where deer live and travel, gave me all the info I could ever need about other hunters and their setups in the area, and challenged you to leave as little trace of your intrusion as humanly possible. Most bait haters simply cant appreciate this, their understanding of the practice only goes as far as seeing some orange pumpkins drop a dump truck load of sugar beets 100 yards off the highway, and feeling superior to those neanderthals.


----------



## >WingIt<

DXT Deer Slayer said:


> Im somewhat disappointed I couldn't drum up more discussion on the topic with a post earlier in the thread.... but ill try again.
> 
> Which poses a greater detriment to the _overall_ health of the land youre hunting on?
> 
> -a few small 'bait scars', (exposed soil), where bait is placed and consumed
> 
> Or
> 
> -clearing of the native vegetation, possible stripping of all organic soil by newbie dozer aficionados, tillage, exposed soil running into your creeks and drainages, an ideal location for invasive plant species to germinate and proliferate, multiple sprayings of herbicides, and introduction of plant species that shouldn't be there, many of which can become invasive in nature.
> 
> That question isnt so much geared at ag-land environments, theyre already pretty disturbed. More so - in northern hardwoods, boreal forest, mixed confier covers and similar environments. Of which, judging by the amount of f-150's pulling compact tractors with food plot tools in the northern lower and Upper, LOTS of new plotting is happening in.
> 
> Im pro-bait, Im pro - responsible plot. My favorite time of year as a young man was late season bow and muzz, trying to bait a big buck out of some pretty remote country. It worked, so well, if you did it right. There are very subtle tricks required to bring one out in daylight. It was fun, great exercise, taught you a heck of a lot about where deer live and travel, gave me all the info I could ever need about other hunters and their setups in the area, and challenged you to leave as little trace of your intrusion as humanly possible. Most bait haters simply cant appreciate this, their understanding of the practice only goes as far as seeing some orange pumpkins drop a dump truck load of sugar beets 100 yards off the highway, and feeling superior to those neanderthals.


So why doesn’t the DNR just put out bait piles instead of their foodplots?


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## Waif

Didn't know there were turkey in the area till one late spring a hen snuck around and through the rye.
They don't do that with last falls sugar beets I'd guess...


----------



## Liver and Onions

sniper said:


> I love how everyone here knows a CO in this thread. Lol. I haven’t seen one of those in 25 years around my area.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


60 years for me. Are guys meeting them for breakfast ? It just can't be out in the field.

L & O


----------



## Tom (mich)

Food plots and baiting are no different because there both artificial means to attract deer.

Therefore beer and heroin are no different because they're both intentionally ingested to impair our senses.

Scale matters. Stupid argument easily dismissed. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## DXT Deer Slayer

>WingIt< said:


> So why doesn’t the DNR just put out bait piles instead of their foodplots?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Because its very easy for lots of hunters to find a 17 acre rye field in the jackpine plantation, lay claim to it as their own, and hunt the living snot out of it. Its not so easy, to find a well-located bait pile.

Their project needs to see 'user-hours', visibility, and pretty green pictures to put in a PowerPoint presentation to their sources of project funding at the end of the year. My project (shooting nice bucks utilizing a bait pile), is measured in actual success and results.

As for nutritional value, and the common good? Seems whitetails did pretty good on native browse after the logging era. In today's day in age, some plots are ok, even a good idea in some places, especially when elk are involved. But, I think it should be ok for me to bait when and where I wish, too.


----------



## bucko12pt

FullQuiver said:


> Again what is your information based on?


He has a neighbor he doesn’t like, so everyone else is guilty also. 
It’s how people like him roll.


----------



## >WingIt<

DXT Deer Slayer said:


> Because its very easy for lots of hunters to find a 17 acre rye field in the jackpine plantation, lay claim to it as their own, and hunt the living snot out of it. Its not so easy, to find a well-located bait pile.
> 
> Their project needs to see 'user-hours', visibility, and pretty green pictures to put in a PowerPoint presentation to their sources of project funding at the end of the year. My project (shooting nice bucks utilizing a bait pile), is measured in actual success and results.
> 
> As for nutritional value, and the common good? Seems whitetails did pretty good on native browse after the logging era. In today's day in age, some plots are ok, even a good idea in some places, especially when elk are involved. But, I think it should be ok for me to bait when and where I wish, too.


Yeah well it’s illegal


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----------



## bucko12pt

FullQuiver said:


> Again what is your information based on?


He has a neighbor he doesn’t like, so everyone else is guilty also. 
It’s how people like him roll.

Look up the average age of game violators in Michigan and 
see what that shows.


----------



## Tilden Hunter

JS714 said:


> I keep telling her I want one more good 80 acre piece and she wants a place on a lake near TC. But, I don't shop or fish, so it's a stalemate right now. She doesn't need more ammunition for her side (I have three daughters that already prop that side up).


Now that is being between a rock and a hard place.


----------



## >WingIt<

bucko12pt said:


> He has a neighbor he doesn’t like, so everyone else is guilty also.
> It’s how people like him roll.
> 
> Look up the average age of game violators in Michigan and
> see what that shows.


Only neighbor I could think of would potentially be a homeless guy who sometimes camps back on the large piece of public I frequent. Otherwise no to the best of my knowledge. 

Also, again… the I don’t do it so no one in my age demo does is a very stupid argument.

If you have those numbers I would genuinely be curious. You could PM if you wanted to 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## bucko12pt

BigWoods Bob said:


> I posted this in response to a post in another thread, however, I wanted to make a thread for this single topic, to get everyone's thoughts on it.
> 
> The original post that got me to thinking about this, was someone mentioning the fact that their food plots, were ultimately about worthless, due to the amount of illegal Baiting going on in their area.
> 
> Here was my response:
> ................................................
> 
> Ain't that the Truth!! I have 250ac., in Northern Clare County (all Big Woods and Swamps--zero AG for miles), on which I have over 8ac., of Food Plots. We hunt it VERY lightly and strategically, and I have multiple Cell Cameras to monitor the property and plots. I also have some of the very best security cover in the section.
> 
> Over the past couple of years, we've begun to notice a trend, where the deer sightings (from cell cameras and our observations), have drastically dropped as we roll into November.
> 
> This has left us REALLY scratching our heads, as we typically hunt only Oct. 1st-3rd, and then stay out until at least Oct. 25th (or later, depending on weather). Several of the deer we've taken over the last several seasons, when gutted, we've found to have corn and/or carrots in their stomachs, but it wasn't until this year that I began to fully realize what was likely happening.
> 
> I was buying some vegetables, apple cider, and such at a local "Farm" style market, and made a comment to the kid running the cash register, about the huge piles of Sugar beets, carrots and stacks of corn bags. (Mind you....we are 2 1/2 hour drive from the UP where baiting is legal)
> 
> His response made things click like a light bulb! He said..(and I paraphrase)...."We're selling more bait now, than before the ban, but the largest volume of sales has shifted more towards late October up to right before rifle season."
> 
> When I mentioned that it was illegal to bait, he chuckled, and then he said three things that resonated...
> 
> 1. "It might be illegal to use it, but it's not illegal to sell it."
> 
> 2. "Most guys won't put it out on State Land, but a LOT of the private land guys mostly say screw the DNR....I'll do what I want on my property!"
> 
> 3. "My uncle owns a bunch of private property, and he says you basically HAVE to bait, just to keep deer from being drawn off your property-- he calls it "Defensive Baiting".
> 
> I don't know if the kid was BS'ing me, exaggerating, or not, but in light of what we've observed over the past few years, it makes us start to wonder?
> 
> Anyone else noticed this on their places, or am I grasping at straws.
> 
> 
> What are everyone's thoughts, experiences, etc., on this issue??
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


We’ve been experiencing the same issue since the bait ban began. We have over 1200 acres with about 50 acres of food plots. We absolutely do not bait. We have about equal amount state and private borders with no agg within several miles. Given the number of small parcels that are adjacent to our place, there may be hundreds of paint piles close to our borders.

Every deer we’ve harvested the past several years has had corn, apples, or sugar beets in the stomachs. We’ve also noticed an exodus of deer numbers usually starting in late October. After firearm season and during ML and late antlerless we see an uptick in sightings and camera pictures again.

Speaking to a young person I know that works at a local feed store near our camp, she said they sold 15 semi loads of sugar beets, plus apples and carrots.

Tough to compete with that.


----------



## bucko12pt

>WingIt< said:


> Only neighbor I could think of would potentially be a homeless guy who sometimes camps back on the large piece of public I frequent. Otherwise no to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> Also, again… the I don’t do it so no one in my age demo does is a very stupid argument.
> 
> If you have those numbers I would genuinely be curious. You could PM if you wanted to
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


It’s also a very ignorant argument to assume because one person does it, everyone does it….whatever it is that seems to bother you.


----------



## >WingIt<

bucko12pt said:


> It’s also a very ignorant argument to assume because one person does it, everyone does it….whatever it is that seems to bother you.


“Given the number of small parcels that are adjacent to our place, there may be hundreds of paint piles close to our borders”.

Man that one guy must be really good at getting access in Leelanau.

Which is basically all PRIVATE



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----------



## >WingIt<

[QUOTE=">WingIt
Man that one guy must be really good at getting access in Leelanau.

Which is basically all PRIVATE 



Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman[/QUOTE]




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----------



## bucko12pt

>WingIt< said:


> “Given the number of small parcels that are adjacent to our place, there may be hundreds of paint piles close to our borders”.
> 
> Man that one guy must be really good at getting access in Leelanau.
> 
> Which is basically all PRIVATE
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


There you go making assumptions, who said anything about Leelanau?


----------



## >WingIt<

bucko12pt said:


> There you go making assumptions, who said anything about Leelanau?


Who said anything about having a neighbor? Or does this only go one way?

*Lower Peninsula (maybe continental united states) - apologies 






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----------



## Chessieman

The Deer are eating in a vitamin rich Clover ( Lignum ) fields from spring till covered with to deep of snow. How are those vitamins not helping the Deer herd becoming more healthy to fend off poor health? I have mentioned that I must work and plant my fields to them keep open for AG rating. I plant a lot of fields with the PF nesting mix so there is Alfalfa, Clover and Timothy or a pollinator mix. I noticed the Deer just love walking, stopping and browsing these uncut fields. As I have been hunting this past gun season I noticed that a lot of the Deer stopping at a couple places to eat the wild grass in a few places. When I say stop, it is mostly a daily sighting of them at the same places eating right next to hybrid or generic Clovers and Alfalfas. Probably has to due to more grit for their Cud. Sooner or later food plots will become a issue in the CWD areas were the Deer manure is being stacked up in the place. If the DNR can do anything about it is questionable with the Michigan Constitution amendment of "The Right To Farm". Well I am out of this thread also, but I do laugh at the new term you guys developed " Defensive Baiting", self justification? 😜


----------



## Luv2hunteup

Time for a song to break the tension. Enjoy your day.


----------



## -db-

I'll buy the food plots aren't bait argument if someone would honestly state that they'd continue to plant non-harvested brassica/rye/clover even if deer didn't exist. You know, because of all the other supposed benefits doing so provides. 

(Note: In reality I still won't buy it because no one in their right mind would ever do so and anyone claiming they would is BS-ing)


----------



## Wild Thing

bucko12pt said:


> It’s also a very ignorant argument to assume because one person does it, everyone does it….whatever it is that seems to bother you.


Agree - As mentioned before, he isn't bright enough to figure that out.

If he really wants to know what a violator looks like he should just sit at one of the bait sales outlets and observe just who is buying the bait. My guess is he will see just as many under age 50 as over and probably guys from all walks of life. And while it wont be obvious who is who, there will be public land hunters as well as landowners and probably those who lease as well.

Why he insists that landowners over the age of 50 are the bulk of the problem is beyond me but I am moving on from this thread…


----------



## >WingIt<

Wild Thing said:


> Agree - As mentioned before, he isn't bright enough to figure that out.
> 
> If he really wants to know what a violator looks like he should just sit at one of the bait sales outlets and observe just who is buying the bait. My guess is he will see just as many under age 50 as over and probably guys from all walks of life. And while it wont be obvious who is who, there will be public land hunters as well as landowners and probably those who lease as well.
> 
> Why he insists that landowners over the age of 50 are the bulk of the problem is beyond me but I am moving on from this thread…


Numbers vs. nuh uh



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----------



## pescadero

bucko12pt said:


> It’s also a very ignorant argument to assume because one person does it, everyone does it….whatever it is that seems to bother you.


Not taking either side but:

"The majority of baiting is done by or takes place on the land of people 50+"

and

"The majority of people 50+ bait or allow baiting on their land"

Are two completely different things.

WingIt seems to be arguing the former, and most responding to him are arguing against the latter (which isn't the argument he is making).


----------



## BigWoods Bob

bucko12pt said:


> We’ve been experiencing the same issue since the bait ban began. We have over 1200 acres with about 50 acres of food plots. We absolutely do not bait. We have about equal amount state and private borders with no agg within several miles. Given the number of small parcels that are adjacent to our place, there may be hundreds of paint piles close to our borders.
> 
> Every deer we’ve harvested the past several years has had corn, apples, or sugar beets in the stomachs. We’ve also noticed an exodus of deer numbers usually starting in late October. After firearm season and during ML and late antlerless we see an uptick in sightings and camera pictures again.
> 
> Speaking to a young person I know that works at a local feed store near our camp, she said they sold 15 semi loads of sugar beets, plus apples and carrots.
> 
> Tough to compete with that.


As I said in my original post...it has become a very noticeable issue. 

On this same topic, I just finished a long drive, and used it to catch up on some of my deer hunting Podcasts. I was listening to the HUNTR podcast, and the guys were speaking with Adam Hayes from Team 200. 

Now if you know these guys, you know that they all target only mature, high end deer. Adam, and one of the guys in the podcast both live in Ohio (where apparently baiting IS legal), and the topic of putting bait out came up and was discussed. Basically, they both agreed, that while they didn't actually hunt over the bait (tough, or impossible to kill a booner class buck over bait), they "HAD" to bait heavily on their properties, as if they didn't, a large percentage of the deer simply moved or spent a large percentage of their time, on properties where bait was available. This was in-spite, of them running extensive food plot programs on their properties as well.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Wild Thing

BigWoods Bob said:


> As I said in my original post...it has become a very noticeable issue.
> 
> On this same topic, I just finished a long drive, and used it to catch up on some of my deer hunting Podcasts. I was listening to the HUNTR podcast, and the guys were speaking with Adam Hayes from Team 200.
> 
> Now if you know these guys, you know that they all target only mature, high end deer. Adam, and one of the guys in the podcast both live in Ohio (where apparently baiting IS legal), and the topic of putting bait out came up and was discussed. Basically, they both agreed, that while they didn't actually hunt over the bait (tough, or impossible to kill a booner class buck over bait), they "HAD" to bait heavily on their properties, as if they didn't, a large percentage of the deer simply moved or spent a large percentage of their time, on properties where bait was available. This was in-spite, of them running extensive food plot programs on their properties as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Yep - “Defensive Baiting”.


----------



## pescadero

Wild Thing said:


> Why he insists that landowners over the age of 50 are the bulk of the problem is beyond me but I am moving on from this thread…


1) Landowners or their guests are the bulk of hunters, hunting effort, and deer harvested.
2) The great majority of property where hunting takes place is owned by people over 50

Therefore the majority of illegal baiting takes place either by, or on land controlled by, people 50+

Also -
3) The majority of public land hunters are over 50
4) The majority of legislators and beauracrats who implemented current regulation are landowners over 50.


----------



## >WingIt<

pescadero said:


> Not taking either side but:
> 
> "The majority of baiting is done by or takes place on the land of people 50+"
> 
> and
> 
> "The majority of people 50+ bait or allow baiting on their land"
> 
> Are two completely different things.
> 
> WingIt seems to be arguing the former, and most responding to him are arguing against the latter (which isn't the argument he is making).


I do not separate the two. They would be allowing it or doing it either way. Culture 


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----------



## BigWoods Bob

-db- said:


> I'll buy the food plots aren't bait argument if someone would honestly state that they'd continue to plant non-harvested brassica/rye/clover even if deer didn't exist. You know, because of all the other supposed benefits doing so provides.
> 
> (Note: In reality I still won't buy it because no one in their right mind would ever do so and anyone claiming they would is BS-ing)


The point you and all the other guys that want to argue this point (food plots are just bait), either fail to understand, or most likely just don't want to acknowledge, is that baiting is illegal, while food plots are not. It really is as simple as that. Don't like it? Get the Law changed...that's the way our society works.

To justify or defend....or even try to excuse someone for baiting deer, by using the excuse that "well food plots are just baiting too", misses the entire point... Last I checked, in our society we're not supposed to pick and choose which Laws we follow, based on what "we" think is or isn't right. 

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## pescadero

>WingIt< said:


> I do not separate the two. They would be allowing it or doing it either way. Culture
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


You have to separate the two, because they're completely different:


3 of 10 people bait. 
2 of 3 baiters are over 50
5 of 7 non-baiter are over 50

Majority of baiters are over 50 (2/3), but only a minority of over 50 bait (2/7).

Vs 


3 of 10 people bait. 
2 of 3 baiters are over 50
1 of 7 non-baiter are over 50

Majority of over 50 (2/3) bait.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

[QUOTE=">WingIt

Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman[/QUOTE]Dude....LET IT GO!! It really doesn't matter "who" is doing it.....the fact that it's being done (extensively), was the point I wanted to highlight and discuss, when I started this thread. 

You've made you're point (multiple times), and we all now know where you stand with respect to the idea, that the majority of the problems in the modern deer hunting society, are the fault of us 50 somethings.....

If you really want to continue to place blame on older generations for all of the things that plague society, then you should start a thread on how us 50+ people use most of the Country's Healthcare! I bet you could get some great debate on that one!! 

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----------



## Carpenter Bill

Sasquatch Lives said:


> I have only seen 1 illegal bait pile on public land in the past 2 years. Used to find them all over when legal. Also seems to be fewer people hunting the public land. I suspect most of the illegal baiting is taking place on private land, how is a CO gonna check behind a locked gate?


A drone


----------



## -db-

BigWoods Bob said:


> The point you and all the other guys that want to argue this point (food plots are just bait), either fail to understand, or most likely just don't want to acknowledge, is that baiting is illegal, while food plots are not. It really is as simple as that. Don't like it? Get the Law changed...that's the way our society works.


I'm not failing to understand or acknowledge any such thing. Nor am I interested in getting any laws changed. I'm neither a land owner nor a baiter. I really could not care less about the subject were it not a hotly debated topic peripheral to deer hunting (what I _am_ interested in).

I'm simply asking for some honesty. Your post saying basically "Yeah, but food plots are legal and bucket baiting isn't!", hoping that this somehow magically means food plots aren't bait, just makes my point. That's like trying to claim that live bait fishing in flies-only waters isn't fishing because it's technically illegal, which is absurd. Both live bait anglers and fly fishermen are fishing, no matter what any laws says. Just like both food plotters and the bucket brigade are baiters, no matter if one method is legal and the other isn't.

The mental gymnastics food plotters come up with to try to deny they're baiting are humorous to observe.

If I owned acreage and did food plots, I'd have no problem stating, "Yes, I do food plots and of course it's a type of baiting, duh, but it's legal and as long as it remains so, I'll continue to do so" and leave it at that, not lie and try to convince myself and everyone else that I'm not baiting deer when it's blatantly obvious that's _exactly_ what I'm doing.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

-db- said:


> I'm not failing to understand or acknowledge any such thing. Nor am I interested in getting any laws changed. I'm neither a land owner nor a baiter. I really could not care less about the subject were it not a hotly debated topic peripheral to deer hunting (what I _am_ interested in).
> 
> I'm simply asking for some honesty. Your post saying basically "Yeah, but food plots are legal and bucket baiting isn't!", hoping that this somehow magically means food plots aren't bait, just makes my point. That's like trying to claim that live bait fishing in flies-only waters isn't fishing because it's technically illegal, which is absurd. Both live bait anglers and fly fishermen are fishing, no matter what any laws says. Just like both food plotters and the bucket brigade are baiters, no matter if one method is legal and the other isn't.
> 
> The mental gymnastics food plotters come up with to try to deny they're baiting are humorous to observe.


IF you read my original post, you would have noticed where I said, that I was NOT against baiting. If baiting were still legal, I would still be putting bait out on my property, to help keep deer on my property. (Note: I didn't hunt over bait when it WAS legal, as it was next to impossible to kill the class of deer I am interested in harvesting over bait), I did however, allow guests, and kids to hunt baited areas when it was legal-- I'm NOT anti-bait...I just try my best to follow the rules!!!

All that said...However....I would also still be running an extensive food plot program..."YEAR ROUND", as I enjoy trying to "take care" of the deer that live on my property to the best of my ability and resources. I'll bet there are quite a few guys on this site that feel the same way...

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----------



## -db-

I'd just like to see the food plot crowd admit the truth, that they're baiters, too, which then makes all the complaining about the bait bucket guys moot and the deer hunting community can invest their time and energy in discussing more important issues like, say, ...the effectiveness of grunt calling.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

pescadero said:


> 1) Landowners or their guests are the bulk of hunters, hunting effort, and deer harvested.
> 2) The great majority of property where hunting takes place is owned by people over 50
> 
> Therefore the majority of illegal baiting takes place either by, or on land controlled by, people 50+
> 
> Also -
> 3) The majority of public land hunters are over 50
> 4) The majority of legislators and beauracrats who implemented current regulation are landowners over 50.


That logic is equivalent to saying all drug addicts started out on milk therefore milk is the reason the are drug abusers. I’m not buying your logic.

Another way to put it is that marriage is the leading cause of divorce.


----------



## sureshot006

pescadero said:


> Not taking either side but:
> 
> "The majority of baiting is done by or takes place on the land of people 50+"
> 
> and
> 
> "The majority of people 50+ bait or allow baiting on their land"
> 
> Are two completely different things.
> 
> WingIt seems to be arguing the former, and most responding to him are arguing against the latter (which isn't the argument he is making).


He could have said the majority of baiting happens on private land and nobody would have said anything.


----------



## pescadero

Luv2hunteup said:


> That logic is equivalent to saying all drug addicts started out on milk therefore milk is the reason the are drug abusers. I’m not buying your logic.
> 
> Another way to put it is that marriage is the leading cause of divorce.


My logic matches yours.

I'm not saying milk causes drug use. I'm specifically saying most drug users are milk users.

Being over 50 or a landowner don't CAUSE baiting or the baiting culture.

That doesn't change the fact that most baiting is done by, or at the allowance of, over 50 landowners.


----------



## JohnnyB87

-db- said:


> I'd just like to see the food plot crowd admit the truth, that they're baiters, too, which then makes all the complaining about the bait bucket guys moot and the deer hunting community can invest their time and energy in discussing more important issues like, say, ...the effectiveness of grunt calling.


Im with you.. At the very least that it is the same TACTIC, ambush hunting over a food source you're creating. 

Food plotting is Jazz and maybe baiting is Mrs. Gardners 5th grade Orchestra, but they are all still just playing music. Only difference is how it sounds.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

pescadero said:


> My logic matches yours.
> 
> I'm not saying milk causes drug use. I'm specifically saying most drug users are milk users.
> 
> Being over 50 or a landowner don't CAUSE baiting or the baiting culture.
> 
> That doesn't change the fact that most baiting is done by, or at the allowance of, over 50 landowners.


Flawed logic and you know it just like I know it.


----------



## pescadero

sureshot006 said:


> He could have said the majority of baiting happens on private land and nobody would have said anything.


Probably... which is funny, because it still means the exact same thing.

... there is a legitimate tie between age, and baiting culture also.


----------



## sureshot006

pescadero said:


> Probably... which is funny, because it still means the exact same thing.
> 
> ... there is a legitimate tie between age, and baiting culture also.


It's understandable because many guys on here are over 50 and landowners. Placing a sort of blame or accusation on them just by demographic.


----------



## >WingIt<

Luv2hunteup said:


> That logic is equivalent to saying all drug addicts started out on milk therefore milk is the reason the are drug abusers. I’m not buying your logic.
> 
> Another way to put it is that marriage is the leading cause of divorce.


No, You’re insisting on dealing with absolutes so it would be if you get married then You will get divorced. 

Which I agree is a stupid argument, but it’s also not what mine is.

I cannot help you get unhung from that lack of understanding.










Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## Luv2hunteup

sureshot006 said:


> It's understandable because many guys on here are over 50 and landowners. Placing a sort of blame or accusation on them just by demographic.


I don’t think so. I believe it because a certain someone doesn’t have the ability to become a landowner due to decades of not trying. Some of us did it the old fashion way and earned it through hard work and educated decisions. She is just lashing out because realizes that is something she lacks. You know the type it’s always someone else’s fault.


----------



## sureshot006

Luv2hunteup said:


> I don’t think so. I believe it because a certain someone doesn’t have the ability to become a landowner due to decades of not trying. Some of us did it the old fashion way and earned it through hard work and educated decisions. She is just lashing out because realizes that is something she lacks. You know the type it’s always someone else’s fault.


Your reply suggests disagreement with something I didn't say. I'm just saying the reason for backlash was it offends a great number of members here. Lumps them all together. Saying 50+ yr old landowners are the problem in MI.

The underlying reason for making such a statement in the first place is probably as you said.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

-db- said:


> I'd just like to see the food plot crowd admit the truth, that they're baiters, too, which then makes all the complaining about the bait bucket guys moot and the deer hunting community can invest their time and energy in discussing more important issues like, say, ...the effectiveness of grunt calling.


While I get what you're trying to say, and I think most of, as you put it..."the food plot crowd", will most likely, readily admit that they DO hunt over "some" of their food plots (effectively "making" them bait to some people's thinking), where I think the "disconnect" arises, is that there is a HUGE difference, between a guy who dumps a few buckets of Corn, carrots or Sugar beets out, for a few weeks time (at best), and the guys who plants ACRES of food, that is often available most of, if not the entire year. 

We can "split hairs", all we want, but at the end of the day, this discussion was originally started, to highlight the fact, that it "seems" there is a significant problem with illegal Baiting (as currently defined by the law).

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## BigWoods Bob

pescadero said:


> My logic matches yours.
> 
> I'm not saying milk causes drug use. I'm specifically saying most drug users are milk users.
> 
> Being over 50 or a landowner don't CAUSE baiting or the baiting culture.
> 
> That doesn't change the fact that most baiting is done by, or at the allowance of, over 50 landowners.


I think you must just like to debate....anything.....

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## JS714

pescadero said:


> Probably... which is funny, because it still means the exact same thing.
> 
> ... there is a legitimate tie between age, and baiting culture also.


It's the wrong comparison. The logic leaped to get to the conclusion on the culture of a specific demographic using an assumption and an incorrect comparison. And the correct comparison to show that conclusion probably would be near impossible to get accurate data on. 

There is certainly a tie between land ownership and being over 50. Land is far more likely to be owned by the over 50 crowd. The assumption I saw was that more bait is used on private than public. Let's take that as a given. It's the wrong comparison to show the culture of anyone except land owners vs. non land owners. How is it shown (maybe I missed it) that bait is used on more private land than not used on private land? Because the majority of that comparison is what would truly be the overall culture of that demographic (which would actually be ALL ages land ownership). The only true way you could show culture of the over 50 land owner demographic you're accusing is to mine that land ownership baiting data even further and show how many land owners over 50 bait compared to land owners over 50 that don't. That comparison is the only one that can show the culture of that demographic.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

Here's something to illustrate the point I tried to make in Post #395....

This picture just came through this morning on one of my Cell Cameras. It was clearly taken on one of the many food plots I have on my property. This food plot is available for the deer every day of the year (although they don't use it much, once the snow gets deep).

No one has hunted over this food plot in 2 years. That said, I still maintain it (fertilizer, lime, etc., $$$), every year, as I enjoy providing the most/best habitat that I am able to, for the deer herd on my property. 

That doesn't mean I never hunt any food plots. Occasionally I do, however, for me, and I would guess for a significant number of the serious Whitetail fanatics that manage their properties, planting food plots is NOT just about putting something out for us to hunt over, it's about providing the very best habitat ALL YEAR, for the deer in your area.

You simply CANNOT say that about baiting...PERIOD. 

The point still remains, however, is that a significant number of posters in this thread, continually try to "deflect" from the real issue, and that is that we have a significant percentage of Sportsmen in this State, who continue to openly break the law, with respect to baiting. Again...I am NOT against baiting...but I will follow the law, even if I don't like it.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
View attachment 802537

View attachment 802538


----------



## JasonSlayer

Deskjockey1 said:


> So do we shut down all AG/farming too? Where's the line drawn?


Big difference, obviously you know that or you just wanted to throw a b.s. statement out there.


----------



## Grizzly Adams

Carpenter Bill said:


> A drone


You're ok with drones hovering over your property, looking for whatever?


----------



## Grizzly Adams

BigWoods Bob said:


> Here's something to illustrate the point I tried to make in Post #395....
> 
> This picture just came through this morning on one of my Cell Cameras. It was clearly taken on one of the many food plots I have on my property. This food plot is available for the deer every day of the year (although they don't use it much, once the snow gets deep).
> 
> No one has hunted over this food plot in 2 years. That said, I still maintain it (fertilizer, lime, etc., $$$), every year, as I enjoy providing the most/best habitat that I am able to, for the deer herd on my property.
> 
> That doesn't mean I never hunt any food plots. Occasionally I do, however, for me, and I would guess for a significant number of the serious Whitetail fanatics that manage their properties, planting food plots is NOT just about putting something out for us to hunt over, it's about providing the very best habitat ALL YEAR, for the deer in your area.
> 
> You simply CANNOT say that about baiting...PERIOD.
> 
> The point still remains, however, is that a significant number of posters in this thread, continually try to "deflect" from the real issue, and that is that we have a significant percentage of Sportsmen in this State, who continue to openly break the law, with respect to baiting. Again...I am NOT against baiting...but I will follow the law, even if I don't like it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
> View attachment 802537
> 
> View attachment 802538


It's food for deer. Same thing ...


----------



## retired dundo

In buddy agree everything was nicer before internet and all the social meadea like Facebook Twitter and all other ones.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

Grizzly Adams said:


> It's food for deer. Same thing ...


Food for deer... yes. Same thing...no.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Waif

In thirty years the 50 year olds today will be pretty much done baiting. Then it'll be on Wing its generation....Or one near.

I've baited. And plotted.
Neither ensures success.
I've seen deer in a plot of mine. Have not killed one in a plot of mine. In a mowed area yes. Is that bait , or a plot?
Did have one in a former plot this year than wepoen choice put out of range I would have killed. So let's count that as a former (not this year's) plot as being effective...

Both methods are supplemental.
Yes private (and public) ground could have a mature maple grove cut to stimulate second growth and increase browse tonnage. That could be argued as supplemental too if the popular aberrated approach to bait vs plot logic is applied.

I am limited in baiting experience but think I had a grasp on it.
I had back then stated repeatedly that those baiting should be required to provide a quality food (per deer metabolism during winter bottleneck) during the off season.
Obviously that would not apply to areas deer migrate away from. But they go somewhere and if the state deemed supplemental food as required...There's a source.

Nutrition in spring. Does it matter?
Should anyone look for ways to see better deer body condition? (Yes , better antlers follows better nutrition too).

I don't have naked deer pictures.
Would be good if I could present the difference in November killed deer with good fat reserves vs deer going into winter in poor condition.
I also lack pictures of dead winter killed (read starved) deer I looked over/at.
And of course lack pictures of what over browsed , including browse out of reach browse lines look like.
Bringing us to , habitat browse capacity during the bottleneck of winter Vs, -Deer numbers.

Nature will deal with it.
We can factor in reductions where and if desired.
But poor habitat is going to have low deer numbers. And affect the browse for future generations of deer.

Even in some ag areas , the wrong winter is going to have an effect on deer quality/body condition.
Had one where despite my trying to keep room for more snow while plowing I ended up with a single lane down our dirt road.
That winter deer dragged thier keels moving around.
Runs were mandatory and obviously used repeatedly.
Deer in roads didn't want to fight the banks and then flounder more.
One spot 5 or 6 got clobbered by a vehicle. They just didn't get off the road.

Blizzard of 78.
A swamp I know saw farmers haul in supplemental feed.
No ,not all farmers cheer deer. But plenty will tolerate a couple-few.
More so when a group is the nucleus of the futures herd.

Spring thaw deer looking about as wide as a loaf of bread need a boost of nutrition. Timed with increase in metabolism and diet.
Not deer with the squirts like some in fall hitting fruit or veggie baits can get in transition.
But plants beyond woody browse and mineral uptake to attempt to recover lost reserves , IF reserves existed prior.

"Natural" areas of rich deer browse year round may be deemed scarce.
I'll go as far as saying they are a minority of habitats.
River flood plains with certain dense woody browse during winter come to mind.
The annual silt deposits helping boost soil content year round.
Not all such areas , but some.
To prove such , I'll gamble pulling hides off will tell going into winter , when compared to a control group beyond range of such soil.

This years non woody browse on my site is mowed areas. Deer have cleared out except for wanderers at night mostly.
Better options exist , but when you study what my site offers for browse , deer shouldn't be there right now to browse.

Come spring though , a doe will find things just right to drop a fawn.
Before mid summer though the grass and forb values will be decreasing. Around the time a fawn starts learning about being nomadic in browsing.
They'll be around the area though.
Should I plant a crop , they'll sample it. What crop and why comes next.
Will the herd gain anything on my site? Is it worth my killing a deer off a planted area?
Want to study the herd and choose what (if any like three/four years ago when the answer was none) individual (s) should be killed?

Bait is a shorter time supplement. If supplementation is accepted , choose a browse that suits deer per deer dietary benefit per given time frame.

Even if you are against both baiting and plotting , study your areas winter browse type and capacity against deer numbers. Any effect of deer browsing during all seasons.
And most of all ,deer body condition going into , then coming out of winter.
A good balance has deer with adequate fat reserves going into winter , decent winter browse , and in spring a very different diet than falls weight gain attempt time and the following winter diet.

Absent that habitat's balance evidenced when a hide is off , or signs of overbrowsing or weak growth in body size , antler condition will be affected too. Antlers at full potential being secondary to survival.

Temporary (by time length) baiting vs plots. Which depending how they are maintained can be temporary too.

Winter comes. Deer seek browse. _What they find and it's value varies. What should they find for optimum health?_


----------



## pescadero

JS714 said:


> It's the wrong comparison. The logic leaped to get to the conclusion on the culture of a specific demographic using an assumption and an incorrect comparison. And the correct comparison to show that conclusion probably would be near impossible to get accurate data on.
> 
> There is certainly a tie between land ownership and being over 50. Land is far more likely to be owned by the over 50 crowd.


Correct.



JS714 said:


> The assumption I saw was that more bait is used on private than public. Let's take that as a given. It's the wrong comparison to show the culture of anyone except land owners vs. non land owners. How is it shown (maybe I missed it) that bait is used on more private land than not used on private land?


89% of deer killed in Michigan were on private land in 2020, and something like 80% of hunters hunt only private land.


It isn't shown that bait is used on more private land than not used on private land - because as I mentioned previously, the argument being made is 

The majority of baiters are over 50
NOT
The majority of over 50 bait



JS714 said:


> Because the majority of that comparison is what would truly be the overall culture of that demographic (which would actually be ALL ages land ownership). The only true way you could show culture of the over 50 land owner demographic you're accusing is to mine that land ownership baiting data even further and show how many land owners over 50 bait compared to land owners over 50 that don't. That comparison is the only one that can show the culture of that demographic.


No - beliefs on baiting and past voting/support for baiting can also show the culture of the demographic.

One can have a pro baiting culture without baiting oneself. 

If you don't bait but:
Would if it's legal
Think it should be legal
Vote to make it legal

...you are pro baiting.


----------



## >WingIt<

pescadero said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 89% of deer killed in Michigan were on private land in 2020, and something like 80% of hunters hunt only private land.
> 
> 
> It isn't shown that bait is used on more private land than not used on private land - because as I mentioned previously, the argument being made is
> 
> The majority of baiters are over 50
> NOT
> The majority of over 50 bait
> 
> 
> 
> No - beliefs on baiting and past voting/support for baiting can also show the culture of the demographic.
> 
> One can have a pro baiting culture without baiting oneself.
> 
> If you don't bait but:
> Would if it's legal
> Think it should be legal
> Vote to make it legal
> 
> ...you are pro baiting.


Pescadero you’re evil by loose association now man lol


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## sureshot006

>WingIt< said:


> Pescadero you’re evil by loose association now man lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


You got sh** not because of correct or incorrect, but with how you said it and how it came across.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

pescadero said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 89% of deer killed in Michigan were on private land in 2020, and something like 80% of hunters hunt only private land.
> 
> 
> It isn't shown that bait is used on more private land than not used on private land - because as I mentioned previously, the argument being made is
> 
> The majority of baiters are over 50
> NOT
> The majority of over 50 bait
> 
> 
> 
> No - beliefs on baiting and past voting/support for baiting can also show the culture of the demographic.
> 
> One can have a pro baiting culture without baiting oneself.
> 
> If you don't bait but:
> Would if it's legal
> Think it should be legal
> Vote to make it legal
> 
> ...you are pro baiting.


If I "would if it were legal"..(due to the fact that I know without a doubt, that if surrounding properties bait, and I don't, it pulls deer off my place.)..

But I would prefer to never bait, if it weren't for the above outlined reasons, what does that make me? (FWIW...I believe that a lot of guys would fall into this category)...

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## pescadero

BigWoods Bob said:


> If I "would if it were legal"..(due to the fact that I know without a doubt, that if surrounding properties bait, and I don't, it pulls deer off my place.)..
> 
> But I would prefer to never bait, if it weren't for the above outlined reasons, what does that make me? (FWIW...I believe that a lot of guys would fall into this category)...
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


If you'd do it, you aren't against it. Thus pro baiting culture.

Just like "if I don't shoot it, my neighbor will".


----------



## BigWoods Bob

pescadero said:


> If you'd do it, you aren't against it. Thus pro baiting culture.
> 
> Just like "if I don't shoot it, my neighbor will".


Terrible analogy...

Plus...I've already said I'm "not against" it, IF it's legal and everyone is following the same rules, then I would do it as well, but possibly for slightly different expected outcomes, as opposed to most.

That said.....IF I had to vote on it, I would choose No baiting. 

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## pescadero

BigWoods Bob said:


> Terrible analogy...
> 
> Plus...I've already said I'm "not against" it, IF it's legal and everyone is following the same rules, then I would do it as well, but possibly for slightly different expected outcomes, as opposed to most.
> 
> That said.....IF I had to vote on it, I would choose No baiting.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I'm not making any sort of moral judgement about baiting here. I'm not inherently against it as long as it isn't harming the resources.

...thus, I personally (even though I have never baited and wouldn't if legal) am part of the baiting culture.


----------



## JS714

pescadero said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 89% of deer killed in Michigan were on private land in 2020, and something like 80% of hunters hunt only private land.
> 
> 
> It isn't shown that bait is used on more private land than not used on private land - because as I mentioned previously, the argument being made is
> 
> The majority of baiters are over 50
> NOT
> The majority of over 50 bait
> 
> 
> 
> No - beliefs on baiting and past voting/support for baiting can also show the culture of the demographic.
> 
> One can have a pro baiting culture without baiting oneself.
> 
> If you don't bait but:
> Would if it's legal
> Think it should be legal
> Vote to make it legal
> 
> ...you are pro baiting.


When you talk culture in something like this, it is generally referring to the majority...I understand what you're saying though. There's still a leap in the argument. That majority would require knowing the age of those putting out bait and then the comparison made. Not saying you guys aren't correct in your "belief", but it takes a whole lot more data than is presented to make it more than a belief. Land ownership would have nothing to do with it...it would be just a side stat in that argument. Same with number of deer harvested.


----------



## pescadero

JS714 said:


> When you talk culture in something like this, it is generally referring to the majority...


I agree - and I think the majority of 50+ deer hunters either bait, allow baiting, support the legalization of baiting, or are unwilling to engage in actions to do away with baiting.

I don't think the culture of baiting is a culture of people who bait.

The culture is a culture of people who bait, people who support baiting, people who support legalization of baiting, and people who tacitly allow baiting through refusal to do away with baiting by others.


----------



## mbrewer

7mmsendero said:


> I’m pretty sure it’s legal to look at deer with binoculars prior to shooting hours, so I’m not really following you here.


Of course you can, you can also consider the pros and cons for any choice without making them. What I was referencing is the choice to shoot or not starts with a round in the chamber. A person would have to break the first law before he could break the next.

If I'm faced with a decision like whether to shoot a deer 3 minutes early, I should be doing it with an empty chamber. Credit my "decision" for doing the right thing however you wish.That's all.


----------



## Waif

pescadero said:


> I agree - and I think the majority of 50+ deer hunters either bait, allow baiting, support the legalization of baiting, or are unwilling to engage in actions to do away with baiting.
> 
> I don't think the culture of baiting is a culture of people who bait.
> 
> The culture is a culture of people who bait, people who support baiting, people who support legalization of baiting, and people who tacitly allow baiting through refusal to do away with baiting by others.


A culture is collective. 
Demographics can focus on an age group.
"Bait" supporters are a group. Regardless of age.


----------



## Jiw275

How ‘bout them lions?


----------



## Dish7

I think baiting is a product of white supremacy as most hunters are white. So by default, hunters who bait are...


#obviouslysatire


----------



## Carpenter Bill

Grizzly Adams said:


> You're ok with drones hovering over your property, looking for whatever?


No,I did not say that. I said that is what the dnr is doing. Not just for deer hunting issues but other things also.


----------



## mbrewer

>WingIt< said:


> So why doesn’t the DNR just put out bait piles instead of their foodplots?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


The MDNR doesn't support baiting and in general, I agree with them. However, they along with the NRC have handled the whole thing about as badly as they could so crediting them for pro-activity would be a stretch for me.

IMO, the primary reason they installed plots is to get the USDA off their backs (TB) and a close second would be because they have "use it or lose it" funding dedicated for the purpose. The admin money that comes with it is also a powerful incentive.


----------



## Waif

Dish7 said:


> I think baiting is a product of white supremacy as most hunters are white. So by default, hunters who bait are...
> 
> 
> #obviouslysatire


Black squirrels matter!


----------



## Zib

I always found it funny that guys complain about people baiting then you ask them where they hunt & they say they hunt a corn field, apple orchard, around oak trees, food plot etc. Most guys that have smaller plots of land don't have the habitat to hold deer on their property so they bait to bring deer in.

This year was my 1st time on state land in 15 years (North of Alpena). I didn't hunt but I did scout for my son so he could hunt on his way home from school for Thanksgiving. In October I scouted several spots on state land, one of which was a spot my dad used to hunt so I figured I'd set him up there for rifle season. Took my son out to the spot on Nov. 19th & found pumpkins, beets, & some other apple smelling mineral pile. We had to get rid of the bait because I didn't want my son getting ticketed for bait that some else had out there for opening day.


----------



## JS714

Zib said:


> I always found it funny that guys complain about people baiting then you ask them where they hunt & they say they hunt a corn field, apple orchard, around oak trees, food plot etc. Most guys that have smaller plots of land don't have the habitat to hold deer on their property so they bait to bring deer in.


I knew a guy that had both back in the day. He was well over 50 for those keeping score. Early 90's you could bait in our area. We never did...ag kept our deer home, but this guy had a stand of Maple in the middle of a 40 acre field. He actually tapped them and made syrup in the Spring. The edge of his property was wooded and that was attached to a pretty big parcel of mostly woods and swamp (we have an abundance of low ground in our area). He rotated corn, soy beans or other beans, and usually a cereal grain thrown in there in whatever rotation. But, he also baited that Maple grove. We always gave him crap about it because it was literally surrounded by his own ag field, but he always shot nice deer and he used to say that the deer didn't just go there, but would migrate across the field to there and then out of there. It made it so any buck following would have to cross the open ground. He passed 10-15 years ago and the place is owned by a younger guy now. He's not 50...so he surely doesn't bait.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

Zib said:


> I always found it funny that guys complain about people baiting then you ask them where they hunt & they say they hunt a corn field, apple orchard, around oak trees, food plot etc. Most guys that have smaller plots of land don't have the habitat to hold deer on their property so they bait to bring deer in.
> 
> This year was my 1st time on state land in 15 years (North of Alpena). I didn't hunt but I did scout for my son so he could hunt on his way home from school for Thanksgiving. In October I scouted several spots on state land, one of which was a spot my dad used to hunt so I figured I'd set him up there for rifle season. Took my son out to the spot on Nov. 19th & found pumpkins, beets, & some other apple smelling mineral pile. We had to get rid of the bait because I didn't want my son getting ticketed for bait that some else had out there for opening day.


My initial "complaint" wasn't about "baiting" per se....it was about doing it, when it's illegal, and the affects (whether perceived or real), it seems to have in significantly affecting deer movement and distribution. 

How many of you guys defending baiting, whether directly, or indirectly, by comparing it to food plots, would come unwound if you heard your neighbors shooting 1/2 hour after dark? Where do you draw the line between what "illegal activity", YOU deemed ok, and which ones you won't put up with....??

Zib- the above response is not directed at you...I just liked the first part of your post-- Many of us have ZERO problem with Baiting...IF it weren't against the law!!

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## JohnnyB87

BigWoods Bob said:


> My initial "complaint" wasn't about "baiting" per se....it was about doing it, when it's illegal, and the affects (whether perceived or real), it seems to have in significantly affecting deer movement and distribution.
> 
> How many of you guys defending baiting, whether directly, or indirectly, by comparing it to food plots, would come unwound if you heard your neighbors shooting 1/2 hour after dark? Where do you draw the line between what "illegal activity", YOU deemed ok, and which ones you won't put up with....??
> 
> Zib- the above response is not directed at you...I just liked the first part of your post-- Many of us have ZERO problem with Baiting...IF it weren't against the law!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Yea I'm guilty of that. Lots of baiting happens over here, doesn't bother me too much. But the late/early shots bother me big time, as do the reports of road poaching. What's up with that? Maybe baiting is like speeding to me, road hunting assault? You bring up a good point.


----------



## sparky18181

GIDEON said:


> At food plots, only an idiot cant see the difference between AG farming and deer farming. AN AG farmer doesnt plant a crop with the intent of attracting deer, a food plots purpose is to attract deer


You will see a lot of corn plots instead of turnips rye clover etc so the plotters can claim they are eating the corn but the deer get some too.


----------



## Waif

sparky18181 said:


> You will see a lot of corn plots instead of turnips rye clover etc so the plotters can claim they are eating the corn but the deer get some too.


Never heard of that.
Corn sucks to get a decent crop of.
The soil prep ,fertilizing , and equipment alone keep me from considering it.

Even if I skipped a proper planter , (here's one that's like digging a septic tank hole with a teaspoon , but if you're looking for Christmas ideas for me, I'll say thanks1 row John Deere 71 Flex Food Plot Planter Sweet Corn | eBay . ) 
It's a crop that needs far more than small seeded ones. Just for starters.
Or types that can be broadcast and bedded with less equipment .

Clover? I'd be delighted. First attempt was a major fail.
It's not as easy as it looks when gazing an established field from the road.
And with deer clearing out as hunting pressure ramps up , bait would be much cheaper.
But my habitat work is about more than killing a deer.
As evidenced by kill choices. And not killing any one year deliberately when numbers were quite thin.

You care for honey?
Someone does , and my habitat I'm taking care of for the next guy that wants to follow suit (or a developer) sees a high number of bees for an extended period of time. Does a bag of carrots?

No seed planted by me in this picture. I do mow it 2-3 times a year. Other area id left fallow. Planning tree and shrub removal on part of the fallow to get it back to where it was when I started.
Compare it to what a fawn can browse at weaning time under government pines or mature forest canopies and tell me I'm in the wrong for manipulating habitat.

Rabbit, Racoon. Skunk. Possum. Turkey. Vole, Mice. Varied birds. Ever see sandhill cranes under government pines , or hanging out on blow-sand?
Predators , avian and mammal type.
Leopard frogs ( a surprising distance from water at times) hunting the "field".
Snakes hunting the leopard frogs. Snakes tend to sun themselves at times on my blinds platform.
Or did , I raised it by placing it on a raised other platform.

Former pasture. Followed by corn.
The most tired soil is where I plot a patch. Played out dirt is tough to work with.
I've more pictures if you want to see the results of no longer being clear cropped annually.
Imagine a closely cropped field vs cover and multiple edges. Might be a dozen edges from front to rear of property. Maybe more. Cover you can't i.d. a deer's legality a few feet into it.
You don't have to agree wildlife benefits beyond /more than my occasional kill. I benefit regardless each visit...
Scratching in the dirt vs dumping a bag. Buying a bag is a lot easier. But that is not why the state frowns on it's legality in the lower.

You get notes on how a plot of corn is being grown for deer due to it being better camouflage of ethics , let me know how someone manages to do it without costing so much. Or ***** and other critters tearing it up pre harvest time.
Bears can get rough on it too.
Even my sweetcorn efforts at home tell of investing more than I consider reasonable compared to buying it ready to eat. But had I a spot for ten acres , it might keep deer interested during season.
Or they could just walk to the cornfields nearby that have been harvested too after dark.


----------



## JasonSlayer

I think the guys getting the biggest laugh out of this thread are the farmers.


----------



## sparky18181

Waif said:


> Never heard of that.
> Corn sucks to get a decent crop of.
> The soil prep ,fertilizing , and equipment alone keep me from considering it.
> 
> Even if I skipped a proper planter , (here's one that's like digging a septic tank hole with a teaspoon , but if you're looking for Christmas ideas for me, I'll say thanks1 row John Deere 71 Flex Food Plot Planter Sweet Corn | eBay . )
> It's a crop that needs far more than small seeded ones. Just for starters.
> Or types that can be broadcast and bedded with less equipment .
> 
> Clover? I'd be delighted. First attempt was a major fail.
> It's not as easy as it looks when gazing an established field from the road.
> And with deer clearing out as hunting pressure ramps up , bait would be much cheaper.
> But my habitat work is about more than killing a deer.
> As evidenced by kill choices. And not killing any one year deliberately when numbers were quite thin.
> 
> You care for honey?
> Someone does , and my habitat I'm taking care of for the next guy that wants to follow suit (or a developer) sees a high number of bees for an extended period of time. Does a bag of carrots?
> 
> No seed planted by me in this picture. I do mow it 2-3 times a year. Other area id left fallow. Planning tree and shrub removal on part of the fallow to get it back to where it was when I started.
> Compare it to what a fawn can browse at weaning time under government pines or mature forest canopies and tell me I'm in the wrong for manipulating habitat.
> 
> Rabbit, Racoon. Skunk. Possum. Turkey. Vole, Mice. Varied birds. Ever see sandhill cranes under government pines , or hanging out on blow-sand?
> Predators , avian and mammal type.
> Leopard frogs ( a surprising distance from water at times) hunting the "field".
> Snakes hunting the leopard frogs. Snakes tend to sun themselves at times on my blinds platform.
> Or did , I raised it by placing it on a raised other platform.
> 
> Former pasture. Followed by corn.
> The most tired soil is where I plot a patch. Played out dirt is tough to work with.
> I've more pictures if you want to see the results of no longer being clear cropped annually.
> Imagine a closely cropped field vs cover and multiple edges. Might be a dozen edges from front to rear of property. Maybe more. Cover you can't i.d. a deer's legality a few feet into it.
> You don't have to agree wildlife benefits beyond /more than my occasional kill. I benefit regardless each visit...
> Scratching in the dirt vs dumping a bag. Buying a bag is a lot easier. But that is not why the state frowns on it's legality in the lower.
> 
> You get notes on how a plot of corn is being grown for deer due to it being better camouflage of ethics , let me know how someone manages to do it without costing so much. Or ***** and other critters tearing it up pre harvest time.
> Bears can get rough on it too.
> Even my sweetcorn efforts at home tell of investing more than I consider reasonable compared to buying it ready to eat. But had I a spot for ten acres , it might keep deer interested during season.
> Or they could just walk to the cornfields nearby that have been harvested too after dark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 802650


That’s why you pay people to plant if you don’t have all the equipment.


----------



## 7mmsendero

mbrewer said:


> Of course you can, you can also consider the pros and cons for any choice without making them. What I was referencing is the choice to shoot or not starts with a round in the chamber. A person would have to break the first law before he could break the next.
> 
> If I'm faced with a decision like whether to shoot a deer 3 minutes early, I should be doing it with an empty chamber. Credit my "decision" for doing the right thing however you wish.That's all.


A buck came in early, it was easily recognized as a buck and it could have easily been shot. Last I checked it was legal to have your gun uncased and ammunition in your pocket. Loading a Model 700 is not a complex or difficult process.

Here’s a couple of the trail cam pictures. I think there’s 12 total. Nice buck, as you can see by the time stamps he was there awhile. I was about 80 yards away.


----------



## bucko12pt

It’s obvious to me from this thread, that illegal bait piles are far more effective at drawing deer off another property, than food plots are effective in keeping deer on a property, with illegal bait piles on nearby properties.

This is confirmation of my own experience, since baiting has been banned and appears to be the same experience of BigWoods Bob and others.


----------



## 7mmsendero

7mmsendero said:


> A buck came in early, it was easily recognized as a buck and it could have easily been shot. Last I checked it was legal to have your gun uncased and ammunition in your pocket. Loading a Model 700 is not a complex or difficult process.
> 
> Here’s a couple of the trail cam pictures. I think there’s 12 total. Nice buck, as you can see by the time stamps he was there awhile. I was about 80 yards away.


So in a nutshell, you’re saying we committed a violation for seeing a deer prior to shooting hours and thinking “wow, I could shoot that deer.” It’s like when Jimmy Carter cheated on his wife just by thinking about other women.


----------



## Zib

BigWoods Bob said:


> My initial "complaint" wasn't about "baiting" per se....it was about doing it, when it's illegal, and the affects (whether perceived or real), it seems to have in significantly affecting deer movement and distribution.
> 
> How many of you guys defending baiting, whether directly, or indirectly, by comparing it to food plots, would come unwound if you heard your neighbors shooting 1/2 hour after dark? Where do you draw the line between what "illegal activity", YOU deemed ok, and which ones you won't put up with....??
> 
> Zib- the above response is not directed at you...I just liked the first part of your post-- Many of us have ZERO problem with Baiting...IF it weren't against the law!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Prior to this year the majority of my hunting has been in the U.P. on 155 acres of private land. Hearing shots before and after legal hunting hours is common place up there.


----------



## JS714

bucko12pt said:


> It’s obvious to me from this thread, that illegal bait piles are far more effective at drawing deer off another property, than food plots are effective in keeping deer on a property, with illegal bait piles on nearby properties.
> 
> This is confirmation of my own experience, since baiting has been banned and appears to be the same experience of BigWoods Bob and others.


Most food plots don't stand a chance vs. agriculture...whether it's grown, spread, or piled.


----------



## mbrewer

7mmsendero said:


> A buck came in early, it was easily recognized as a buck and it could have easily been shot. Last I checked it was legal to have your gun uncased and ammunition in your pocket. Loading a Model 700 is not a complex or difficult process.
> 
> Here’s a couple of the trail cam pictures. I think there’s 12 total. Nice buck, as you can see by the time stamps he was there awhile. I was about 80 yards away.


You're arguing a point I wasn't making but enough already.

You and everyone else deserve credit for not taking the shells from your pocket, loading the gun before legal hours and then not shooting a deer you couldn't have shot had your rifle remained empty.

Thank you also for every time you could have left the roadway to run over deer but didn't.


----------



## Waif

sparky18181 said:


> That’s why you pay people to plant if you don’t have all the equipment.


Cripes , next I'll be paying someone to hunt in my stead.....
My prior "plot" is roughly 12x40 yards. (Very roughly). 
I'll hold off on hiring a planter. Somehow.

While there's more hiring it out would resolve. And or resolve faster , besides clearing brush/trees and making some cuts I hired out , the D.I.Y. is different. 

But then , you like doing such work , or you don't.
Come hot summer I'll still be out there at times.
As will a fly bit fawn or two at varied hours throughout the day browsing. Resting , and then browsing again.
Those fawns I cheer. This years bumper crop shows two. Buck and doe.
Next spring , momma (if she still exists) will run them off during fawn drop time. 
Until they regroup after the fawn is well mobile and momma is less defensive/territorial ; last years fawns are on the in betweens. 
Should they avoid hazards they still need to eat. And avoid other doe staking out claims to keep fawns secure.
When I see a yearling (last years fawn) near , but not on , mommas "turf " that's fine by me.
More so if it's got decent browse.
But my focus is on the new fawn. Get a good start and hope coyotes don't snuff it. Or a vehicle. Or disease.
I can help offer a variety of browse and cover in a small area. Enough a doe uses it to fawn..A new potential recruit.
Why not offer it a more prime habitat?


----------



## Wild Thing

bucko12pt said:


> It’s obvious to me from this thread, that illegal bait piles are far more effective at drawing deer off another property, than food plots are effective in keeping deer on a property, with illegal bait piles on nearby properties.
> 
> This is confirmation of my own experience, since baiting has been banned and appears to be the same experience of BigWoods Bob and others.


No question about it.


----------



## 98885

onenationhere said:


> Was excited when the ban was put in place because I wanted to see how it would impact hunting and daytime deer movement. Had read a lot that deer sightings would increase because deer would move to a more natural pattern and not one that is artificially created due to bait piles. I think people just carried on with baiting, those that don't want to break the law get screwed. Then you read or hear about DNR officers stretched so thin that they can hardly investigate complaints. So do you call or what ? will it matter ? Just wish people would follow the rules.


No different than shooting more small game animals than the limit, more fish than the limit or even hunter orange or ORV sticker negligence. There's always gonna be violations in every area of the rule book. This one just happens to be the one in focus right now or discussion here at the moment. We can start one in almost every area of the hunting rules book about laws that do not get followed. Personally I'd like to see this particular rule followed also. This particular one is bad because it negatively effects the other "rule following" hunter and it's intentionally being done and the mentality is a selfish one. It's one that the CO's should focus on much more than they actually do.


----------



## Liver and Onions

>WingIt< said:


> I said people over 50 who own land were responsible for “the worlds problems”?…. Is this Fox News ?
> 
> Fixed it for you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## 98885

>WingIt< said:


> View attachment 802379
> 
> 
> Is that number a personal opinion or a fact?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


If it came from the DNR, it's definitely not fact. Speculation at best.


----------



## sparky18181

Waif said:


> Cripes , next I'll be paying someone to hunt in my stead.....
> My prior "plot" is roughly 12x40 yards. (Very roughly).
> I'll hold off on hiring a planter. Somehow.
> 
> While there's more hiring it out would resolve. And or resolve faster , besides clearing brush/trees and making some cuts I hired out , the D.I.Y. is different.
> 
> But then , you like doing such work , or you don't.
> Come hot summer I'll still be out there at times.
> As will a fly bit fawn or two at varied hours throughout the day browsing. Resting , and then browsing again.
> Those fawns I cheer. This years bumper crop shows two. Buck and doe.
> Next spring , momma (if she still exists) will run them off during fawn drop time.
> Until they regroup after the fawn is well mobile and momma is less defensive/territorial ; last years fawns are on the in betweens.
> Should they avoid hazards they still need to eat. And avoid other doe staking out claims to keep fawns secure.
> When I see a yearling (last years fawn) near , but not on , mommas "turf " that's fine by me.
> More so if it's got decent browse.
> But my focus is on the new fawn. Get a good start and hope coyotes don't snuff it. Or a vehicle. Or disease.
> I can help offer a variety of browse and cover in a small area. Enough a doe uses it to fawn..A new potential recruit.
> Why not offer it a more prime habitat?


I understand the satisfaction of doing things yourself but without the proper tools, sometimes you get others to do some of the work. Makes things easier and saves the body.


----------



## sureshot006

BigWoods Bob said:


> There you go "deflecting" from the real issue again.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Someone else brought it up...

You guys have fun solving the real issue.


----------



## retired dundo

Everybody worries about deer size others shoot.As long as they are legal it’s really no one else business.Like going ice fishing and seeing people keep 6inch perch I think they are nuts keeping little ones but as long as they are happy and don’t go over limit good for them.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

retired dundo said:


> Everybody worries about deer size others shoot.As long as they are legal it’s really no one else business.Like going ice fishing and seeing people keep 6inch perch I think they are nuts keeping little ones but as long as they are happy and don’t go over limit good for them.


Deflecting......

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## mbrewer

johnIV said:


> My guns always loaded from the time I pull it from the case till I get to the blind or back to my quad. Don't matter if it's a 6am or 6pm, it's loaded. A gun isn't much use when it's unloaded. My sidearm isn't ever unloaded when I carry it. Same with my long guns. Just because I'm carrying a loaded rifle doesn't mean I'm hunting with it. I know that won't save me from a ticket if checked by the law man while walking out of the woods but it should. Sometimes common sense should go a little further than the Michigan game guide.


I'm not making a judgement on who should do what, the law does that. My thoughts are like yours regarding if I did it (I have) I know I would be subject to penalty if caught doing it. But, common sense has nothing to do with intent, you/I either did it or you/I did not. Had your/my intent been to shoot something prior to legal light and you/I did, you/I would have committed a separate and individual offense governed by separate and individual rules and penalties.

Understanding this is pretty basic, common sense stuff as well.


----------



## 98885

mbrewer said:


> I'm not making a judgement on who should do what, the law does that. My thoughts are like yours regarding if I did it (I have) I know I would be subject to penalty if caught doing it. But, common sense has nothing to do with intent, you/I either did it or you/I did not. Had your/my intent been to shoot something prior to legal light and you/I did, you/I would have committed a separate and individual offense governed by separate and individual rules and penalties.
> 
> Understanding this is pretty basic, common sense stuff as well.


Like I said, common sense goes further than the rule books. Intent is only known by the person in violation of such written law. My intent isn't ever to violate by keeping my gun loaded. I keep my sidearm loaded for defense. No different than why I keep my rifle loaded until I reach my mode of transportation. Either way, I'll be ticketed if the man decides he wants to write at that particular time. I'd like to see shotgun management go away and deal with individual cases more often.


----------



## wildcoy73

correct me if I am wrong I believe I can have my rifle loaded from an hour before sunrise to an hour after sunset.
and my belief is a loaded gun is one in the chamber not in the magazine.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## 98885

wildcoy73 said:


> correct me if I am wrong I believe I can have my rifle loaded from an hour before sunrise to an hour after sunset.
> and my belief is a loaded gun is one in the chamber not in the magazine.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I thought it was half hour.


----------



## mbrewer

johnIV said:


> Like I said, common sense goes further than the rule books. Intent is only known by the person in violation of such written law. My intent isn't ever to violate by keeping my gun loaded. I keep my sidearm loaded for defense. No different than why I keep my rifle loaded until I reach my mode of transportation. Either way, I'll be ticketed if the man decides he wants to write at that particular time. I'd like to see shotgun management go away and deal with individual cases more often.


I don't know what you're saying. 

How would common sense apply in such an instance? Common sense as in there shouldn't be a rule or common sense in how the rule is interpreted or applied?


----------



## mbrewer

wildcoy73 said:


> correct me if I am wrong I believe I can have my rifle loaded from an hour before sunrise to an hour after sunset.
> and my belief is a loaded gun is one in the chamber not in the magazine.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


From the guide:

Firearms must be unloaded in the barrel, and all arrows must be in a quiver when a hunter
is afield outside the legal hunting hours.


----------



## 98885

mbrewer said:


> I don't know what you're saying.
> 
> How would common sense apply in such an instance? Common sense as in there shouldn't be a rule or common sense in how the rule is interpreted or applied?


Common sense in there shouldn't be a rule. Interpretation will always be the case. Why unload a rifle until back to camp or vehicle ? Makes no sense. People hunt in bear or wolf country and feel better armed having a loaded rifle while doing so. Whether I agree or not, doesn't matter. It's only my opinion. BTW, I looked at the game book a minute ago and nothing in language about carrying a loaded rifle/weapon after dark. Only hunting after the legal hours. Again, interpretation by the officer if checked.


----------



## 98885

mbrewer said:


> From the guide:
> 
> Firearms must be unloaded in the barrel, and all arrows must be in a quiver when a hunter
> is afield outside the legal hunting hours.


Where is that located in the guide. Could not find that. Only while transporting was what I found


----------



## -db-

BigWoods Bob said:


> You are trying to merge two completely different issues in this comment, IMO.
> 
> One issue, is the illegal Baiting. I've read every single post in this thread (and several other related threads), and while there may be a select few who are vehemently opposed to Baiting.....period..... the VAST majority, have simply expressed their frustration, at trying to "play by the rules", while a large percentage of hunters simply do not. What's further frustrating, is the attitude that many on this site, and I suspect, in the Michigan deer hunting community in general, have on the issue.....constantly trying to deflect from or minimize the VIOLATIONS that are occurring on a large scale, by rationalizing that Baiting and food plots are the same thing. Whether you are Pro, or Anti Baiting, the Elephant in the room, remains that a LOT of Michigan Hunters, consistently chose to ignore the current law, and many others, are content to dismiss or minimize this fact.
> 
> The second point in your statement, relates to neighbors shooting deer. You imply, that those who are anti-bait, are somehow "really" more bothered by the fact that someone else is shooting "their" deer, when in reality, I think the real issue most have, is the fact that those deer are ofter very likely being shot, because of illegal Baiting.
> 
> It's not a secret, that those of us who manage our properties extensively, usually have as one of our main goals, to try to advance as many bucks as possible, to an older age structure. We know, and acknowledge, that a certain percentage of bucks WILL be harvested on adjoining properties each season, however, our goal, is to provide the best habitat possible, to try to encourage as many bucks as possible, to spend as much time as possible on our places-- where the vast majority of them would be safe, and have the opportunity to live and grow older, and yes...bigger.
> 
> BUT....here is the "issue", that you allude to, but really miss the point on.... We could very easily, protect quite a few more of those young bucks, on our properties, by simply putting out bait of our own...NOT to hunt on, but rather, simply to "hold" deer on our properties longer. However, we choose not to, due to the fact that we are trying to follow the rules, and THAT (while probably effective) would be illegal. It's not the fact that the neighbors are shooting deer, that bothers us....that's always gonna happen to some extent, and frankly, it SHOULD happen-- it's their property, and they are entitled to harvest whatever deer they choose there. The real issue, is that it's being done illegally, on a large scale, the majority of the deer hunting community turns a "blind eye" to it, and those who choose to follow the rules, are put at a disadvantage because of it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


The axiom "Nice guys finish last", or variations thereof (like, say, "those who follow the rules get screwed"), is as old as the hills. No amount of bellyaching on an internet forum about it is ever going to change this.


----------



## wildcoy73

mbrewer said:


> From the guide:
> 
> Firearms must be unloaded in the barrel, and all arrows must be in a quiver when a hunter
> is afield outside the legal hunting hours.


July. hunting hours for what? several options allow night hunting.
Now my bow the arrow hits the string when I get into the stand, and comes off when I leave the stand.
my guns are loaded at the truck and unloaded at the truck. and when walking in the dark the gun is on a sling over my shoulder. during the day if I am walking the gun is in my hand ready to go.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## 98885

Found it. Unloaded after legal hunting hours. Been this way for decades.


----------



## >WingIt<

BigWoods Bob said:


> You are trying to merge two completely different issues in this comment, IMO.
> 
> One issue, is the illegal Baiting. I've read every single post in this thread (and several other related threads), and while there may be a select few who are vehemently opposed to Baiting.....period..... the VAST majority, have simply expressed their frustration, at trying to "play by the rules", while a large percentage of hunters simply do not. What's further frustrating, is the attitude that many on this site, and I suspect, in the Michigan deer hunting community in general, have on the issue.....constantly trying to deflect from or minimize the VIOLATIONS that are occurring on a large scale, by rationalizing that Baiting and food plots are the same thing. Whether you are Pro, or Anti Baiting, the Elephant in the room, remains that a LOT of Michigan Hunters, consistently chose to ignore the current law, and many others, are content to dismiss or minimize this fact.
> 
> The second point in your statement, relates to neighbors shooting deer. You imply, that those who are anti-bait, are somehow "really" more bothered by the fact that someone else is shooting "their" deer, when in reality, I think the real issue most have, is the fact that those deer are ofter very likely being shot, because of illegal Baiting.
> 
> It's not a secret, that those of us who manage our properties extensively, usually have as one of our main goals, to try to advance as many bucks as possible, to an older age structure. We know, and acknowledge, that a certain percentage of bucks WILL be harvested on adjoining properties each season, however, our goal, is to provide the best habitat possible, to try to encourage as many bucks as possible, to spend as much time as possible on our places-- where the vast majority of them would be safe, and have the opportunity to live and grow older, and yes...bigger.
> 
> BUT....here is the "issue", that you allude to, but really miss the point on.... We could very easily, protect quite a few more of those young bucks, on our properties, by simply putting out bait of our own...NOT to hunt on, but rather, simply to "hold" deer on our properties longer. However, we choose not to, due to the fact that we are trying to follow the rules, and THAT (while probably effective) would be illegal. It's not the fact that the neighbors are shooting deer, that bothers us....that's always gonna happen to some extent, and frankly, it SHOULD happen-- it's their property, and they are entitled to harvest whatever deer they choose there. The real issue, is that it's being done illegally, on a large scale, the majority of the deer hunting community turns a "blind eye" to it, and those who choose to follow the rules, are put at a disadvantage because of it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


My personal favorite on here is the “who cares what your neighbor does, just hunt”…. Or the “mind your own business” because the neighbors won’t like you…


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## PTPD2312

Put up a high fence before gun season and then “your” deer won’t be able to travel to bait piles. Problem solved!

Also turn in those that you can prove are baiting illegally. Perhaps legislate for higher penalty for illegal baiters. Say a mandatory $1500 fine and 90 days jail plus community service and a 3 year hunting/fishing license ban. Complaining on the internet doesn’t change a thing.


----------



## 98885

PTPD2312 said:


> Put up a high fence before gun season and then “your” deer won’t be able to travel to bait piles. Problem solved!
> 
> Also turn in those that you can prove are baiting illegally. Perhaps legislate for higher penalty for illegal baiters. Say a mandatory $1500 fine and 90 days jail plus community service and a 3 year hunting/fishing license ban. Complaining on the internet doesn’t change a thing.


Complaining is a stretch. It's more of a conversation than complaining. If it were that much of a concern and I didn't mind making enemies with my neighboring land owners, I'd report it. I have plenty of land to hunt and no lack of the ability to kill deer. Gets frustrating at worst having deer stop showing up once they start baiting but it's not a complaint. More of a struggle and need for a different management technique. Mine has been simply to hunt bean and corn fields on our property. Then return to my food plots this month as they are in everyday as the neighbors don't hunt December. Problem solved. 😄


----------



## 98885

>WingIt< said:


> My personal favorite on here is the “who cares what your neighbor does, just hunt”…. Or the “mind your own business” because the neighbors won’t like you…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


I'm not perfect and don't walk that straight line when it comes to the game laws. Do I always wear hunter orange in my box blind ? Do I always put a tag on my deer before dragging it back to my truck ? Do I always have my hunting license or tags in my pocket while hunting ? All these things MAY get overlooked because they are minor to me. I have tags and licenses in my truck not always in my pocket. Don't often wear orange in my shack. Never tag my deer as soon as I find it. These are the things I don't need the DNR coming in my place to police me on. Turnabout is fair play. I'm not perfect so why report them for being less than perfect ? I'll deal with it and like I've said, it's really not an issue worth reporting. For others, maybe it is. We have a healthy neighbor relationship. If they shoot a deer and it crosses the fence, they can come look for it AFTER dark. Same applies to us. Like to keep it that way.


----------



## >WingIt<

johnIV said:


> I'm not perfect and don't walk that straight line when it comes to the game laws. Do I always wear hunter orange in my box blind ? Do I always put a tag on my deer before dragging it back to my truck ? Do I always have my hunting license or tags in my pocket while hunting ? All these things MAY get overlooked because they are minor to me. I have tags and licenses in my truck not always in my pocket. Don't often wear orange in my shack. Never tag my deer as soon as I find it. These are the things I don't need the DNR coming in my place to police me on. Turnabout is fair play. I'm not perfect so why report them for being less than perfect ? I'll deal with it and like I've said, it's really not an issue worth reporting. For others, maybe it is. We have a healthy neighbor relationship. If they shoot a deer and it crosses the fence, they can come look for it AFTER dark. Same applies to us. Like to keep it that way.


For the most part I agree. I have problem where people are bending or breaking laws In order to give themselves an upper hand over those who are not. That is all


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## pescadero

johnIV said:


> My intent isn't ever to violate by keeping my gun loaded.


Your intent is irrelevant. You ARE violating by keeping your gun loaded.

The act of having the gun loaded is ITSELF a crime, regardless of intent.


----------



## Chessieman

mbrewer said:


> Illegally harvesting a game animal is what makes someone a poacher. Support for or against a particular regulation doesn't mitigate that and shouldn't.



Great break out the spears for those spawning fish!




johnIV said:


> You never said what violation. Baiting isn't criminal activity neither is over baiting. My comparison was to a small violation like speeding or rolling a stop. They are pretty close and not criminal. It's also not a misdemeanor if a ticket isn't written. It's a violation that mostly gets a warning. Exceptions to every situation of course. Intent plays a huge roll in the action. Any law man will agree. I was checked on it once and didn't get a ticket. Been carrying my 10mm in a chest rig ever since making it legal. There's always more than one way around the barn.



How about we change the direction of this thread?
REASONS TO ILLEGALLY BAIT AT THIS TIME;

I only have a hour to hunt.
The Deer will not come into my three acres without it.
The DNR says there are to many Doe anyway.

Go for it, I got to get dressed and be in the Deer Room in a hour, come on last rut!


----------



## JS714

mbrewer said:


> You're either really stubborn or stupid. The way you not break a law is not do it. You drove a vehicle that you knew was not functioning properly. Your intent may be considered and discretion given but it doesn't negate the offense.
> 
> Done with this nonsense.


I'm probably both, have you been talking with my wife, LOL? Ignoring that intent is everything in law doesn't make your case against that fact. And, yes it is a fact. It's okay to not believe me...try Google.


----------



## Jerry Lamb

Us waterfowlers know very well the concept of baiting, it's effectiveness, and the purpose for the ban.
Not being a deer hunter, the intent for the baiting ban was to prevent congregations of deer to prevent CWT. Is this true?
How is Michigan doing with CRT? Is it waning? If so, would the mitigation of CWT warrant opening up baiting again?
I have no dog in this hunt yet, waiting patiently for retirement so I can become a deer hunter.
I can see the passion in the responses for/against.


----------



## JS714

Jerry Lamb said:


> Us waterfowlers know very well the concept of baiting, it's effectiveness, and the purpose for the ban.
> Not being a deer hunter, the intent for the baiting ban was to prevent congregations of deer to prevent CWT. Is this true?
> How is Michigan doing with CRT? Is it waning? If so, would the mitigation of CWT warrant opening up baiting again?
> I have no dog in this hunt yet, waiting patiently for retirement so I can become a deer hunter.
> I can see the passion in the responses for/against.


The recent Lower Peninsula ban, yes true (CWT). Where I hunt it has been in place for 20ish years (bovine tuberculosis). There is a lot of passion behind it for sure. Those not in ag territory probably see quite a bit of "change" in deer behaviour once the baiting around them starts (that's what the OP is frustrated with).


----------



## ohio up hunter

My camp did not bait because of the current laws. Only know of one other camp in my area that did not bait. Local archery shop told me a crazy story that the DNR is not enforcing the no baiting laws. Of course, he was selling bait. Game warden at check station told me they are enforcing. We had our best year with mature bucks. Proud we followed the established laws. Will continue to follow the established laws.
Same discussion, would like to see the results of CWD in my area. If CWD is in check, open baiting back up. Science over opinion. 
Changing my Michigan hunting address from the UP to Ogemaw county 6 years ago. I did have concern with the gathering of deer at the feeders when legal. Far more deer per square mile than the UP. One sick deer could spread some thing bad. Kind of like the HELL we have all gone thru with Covid. 
Going to enjoy Michigan's great outdoors and look forward to next deer season.


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## MPOW

Turned this crap boy in Tuesday....southern Michigan recreation...go see if the CO'S....did him tomorrow
View attachment 803227









Sent from my SM-J327T1 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## 7mmsendero

mbrewer said:


> No, the presumption was that generic person wouldn't have a loaded gun, so "credit" for making the right decision would have been tempered by lack of or reduced opportunity.
> 
> It was a generic point and should have been taken that way. If you still can't grasp the point, I apologize to and for you.


You don't have to apologize to me or for me. What's your deal with word salads?


----------



## mbrewer

7mmsendero said:


> You don't have to apologize to me or for me. What's your deal with word salads?


At this point you not understanding me is your problem, not mine. Find a way to deal with it that doesn't require my assistance.


----------



## brushbuster

Yeah i would say there is baiting going on.


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## amped

Ok so I keep seeing illegal and criminal brought up. Does anyone have a copy of the house bill that was passed making it illegal to bait? As far as I can see it is a ban which is not criminal offense it is a violation. Would making it a criminal offense change anything? I don't believe it would.


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## amped

retired dundo said:


> I don’t bait but I have to little 40yds by 40 yds food plots.I really don’t understand why the baiters are worst than what I do they both attack deers to a small area.most of my pics the deer are real close together.And usually when I’m driving around every summer evening I look ou in a farmers 80acre field and when the deers first come out they are feeding close together


I agree I think the "science" is a little outdated and flawed. They "believe "where areas of congregation occur it becomes high risk. That the tainted poop and piss of sick deer contaminate the soil and possibly the bait. I honestly don't see the difference between a fruit tree that drops the same fruit in the same spot every year versus the guy that has a corn spreader. I could see if banning bait reduced the number of positive cases but it actually looks like it's increased in areas.


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## 98885

amped said:


> I agree I think the "science" is a little outdated and flawed. They "believe "where areas of congregation occur it becomes high risk. That the tainted poop and piss of sick deer contaminate the soil and possibly the bait. I honestly don't see the difference between a fruit tree that drops the same fruit in the same spot every year versus the guy that has a corn spreader. I could see if banning bait reduced the number of positive cases but it actually looks like it's increased in areas.


I haven't done any research because it really doesn't matter whether the DNR follow science or not. The truth is what they say it is. It won't stop them from imposing a ban or changing rules they've decided on changing. Not researching but only speculating, haven't most and I mean almost all of the deer with CWD come from places where baiting really isn't common ? Could be wrong but seems it's been in those counties where bait isn't popular.


----------



## JohnnyB87

At one point not paying taxes to Great Britan was illegal. Maybe the baiters are simply just patriots exercising a rebellion? 🤭


----------



## >WingIt<

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the DNR banned baiting because hypothetically that is something they could control? Rather than trying to impose an agricultural feed ban for deer. Hmm  


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Theguy

I'm so glad I don't need bait or food plots in my deer hunting these days. 
Done them both and neither really made a big difference to me.


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## sureshot006

amped said:


> I agree I think the "science" is a little outdated and flawed. They "believe "where areas of congregation occur it becomes high risk. That the tainted poop and piss of sick deer contaminate the soil and possibly the bait. I honestly don't see the difference between a fruit tree that drops the same fruit in the same spot every year versus the guy that has a corn spreader. I could see if banning bait reduced the number of positive cases but it actually looks like it's increased in areas.


Once present it can only be slowed, never stopped. It does *appear* more prevalent in AG areas but not sure why.


----------



## 98885

sureshot006 said:


> Once present it can only be slowed, never stopped. It does *appear* more prevalent in AG areas but not sure why.


Because Ag IS BAITING !!! Ok, hunting over bait to make it a little more accurate. I've hunted a bean field almost every day this week and not for one minute have I thought I'm not hunting over bait.


----------



## >WingIt<

Just ban hunting over all agriculture period. Problem solved. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## sureshot006

johnIV said:


> Because Ag IS BAITING !!!


Lol I ain't going there but in a way it is. They sure love the fields and edges that are present year after year after year. Or do the deer tend to be more concentrated? Big woods maybe spread out where in Ag they are pushed into smaller wood lots? A lot of variables.

I very much doubt baiting vs no baiting is going to make any statistically significant impact on CWD but honestly I'm not sure that's a consideration. Laws change. Hunting isn't banned, yet.


----------



## 98885

I know. It's a tough conversation and one that is so controversial it's almost a banned topic before it's even past the first few posts. One thing for sure tho, the definition of baiting isn't as clear as the DNR claim it is.


----------



## sureshot006

johnIV said:


> I know. It's a tough conversation and one that is so controversial it's almost a banned topic before it's even past the first few posts. One thing for sure tho, the definition of baiting isn't as clear as the DNR claim it is.


Well, Ag certainly isn't intended to attract deer to kill. So farming practices, no, that's not baiting to me. Hunters just take advantage of the food source. Why wouldn't we?


----------



## 98885

sureshot006 said:


> Well, Ag certainly isn't intended to attract deer to kill. So farming practices, no, that's not baiting to me. Hunters just take advantage of the food source. Why wouldn't we?


Agreed. I'll take i step further. If it's a man made food source for deer, it CAN considered baiting. Natural food sources are not. This will gather some controversy just the statement I typed. I can't honestly say I agree with it but it can be construed as that definition and argued against strongly. The DNR don't want piles of bait placed on the ground because they gather deer to feed. The sugar beet stations that farmers place in huge piles after they harvest are exactly what the DNR have banned. No they aren't hunted BUT they promote deer to feed nose to nose. They also allow baiting for youth hunts and liberty hunts. Again, they'll contradict their own ban when they want and justify it. I'm done with this rant but again, very controversial. I'm done baiting even if it's brought back. It helped my young children kill deer and hook them so I'm happy for that but they are grown and out. I'm hunting Ag and food plots today. Less work IMO and more gratification when I kill a deer today.


----------



## sureshot006

johnIV said:


> Agreed. I'll take i step further. If it's a man made food source for deer, it CAN considered baiting. Natural food sources are not. This will gather some controversy just the statement I typed. I can't honestly say I agree with it but it can be construed as that definition and argued against strongly. The DNR don't want piles of bait places on the ground because they gather deer to feed. The sugar beet stations that farmers place in huge piles after they harvest are exactly what the DNR have banned. No they aren't hunted BUT they promote deer to feed nose to nose. They also allow baiting for youth hunts and liberty hunts. Again, they'll contradict their own ban when they want and justify it. I'm done with this rant but again, very controversial. I'm done baiting even if it's brought back. It helped my young children kill deer and hook them so I'm happy for that but they are grown and out. I'm hunting Ag and food plots today. Less work IMO and more gratification when I kill a deer today.


I think part of the issue is most baiters create literal piles. They couldn't even do 10'x10'. I don't understand it. Why not spread it out over 50x50 or more?


----------



## 98885

sureshot006 said:


> I think part of the issue is most baiters create bait literal piles. They couldn't even do 10'x10'. I don't understand it. Why not spread it out over 50x50 or more?


When I did use bait, I had food plots. I had my kids hunting over the plots and threw sugar beets in the food plots. The deer came in much more frequently to eat and ate both the beets and grazed in the plot. They never thought they were sitting over a big pile of bait like shooting fish in a barrel. Maybe its the same thing but it wasn't that perception to them. Spreads the deer out making it less likely to shoot into a group of deer eating together.


----------



## RHRoss

>WingIt< said:


> Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the DNR banned baiting because hypothetically that is something they could control? Rather than trying to impose an agricultural feed ban for deer. Hmm
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Agriculture feed ban? How could they do that?Make all farmers put up a high fence? Never will happen


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## RHRoss

johnIV said:


> Because Ag IS BAITING !!! Ok, hunting over bait to make it a little more accurate. I've hunted a bean field almost every day this week and not for one minute have I thought I'm not hunting over bait.


Ag is only baiting if it is grown specifically to feed/lure deer


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## RHRoss

>WingIt< said:


> Just ban hunting over all agriculture period. Problem solved.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Yeah, right, ridiculous


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## 98885

No way that's even possible.


RHRoss said:


> Ag is only baiting if it is grown specifically to feed/lure deer


So food plots ???


----------



## >WingIt<

RHRoss said:


> Agriculture feed ban? How could they do that?Make all farmers put up a high fence? Never will happen


Exactly it’s not possible. So the DNR is controlling what they can. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## 98885

>WingIt< said:


> Exactly it’s not possible. So the DNR is controlling what they can.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Of course they are. They've been doing it for longer than I've been on this planet. Kinda why they are there.


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## 98885

All anyone can hope is that they make decisions based on what science shows is necessary. Science wasn't the reason they banned baiting.


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## RHRoss

johnIV said:


> No way that's even possible.
> 
> So food plots ???


I will agree if the food plot is specifically grown to lure deer to be shot over, then, yes, I agree that is baiting, but I also feel if it is grown and not hunted over then it’s a food source


----------



## RHRoss

>WingIt< said:


> Exactly it’s not possible. So the DNR is controlling what they can.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


The DNR couldn’t control a bowel movement let alone manage a deer herd, lol


----------



## >WingIt<

If you plant oak trees on your property is that baiting? They will attract deer and are good spots to hunt. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## amped

sureshot006 said:


> Once present it can only be slowed, never stopped. It does *appear* more prevalent in AG areas but not sure why.


Agreed. My problem is they are going off of data from 50 years ago and the solution back then was to just kill them all. Not enough to say if it can be prevented. I don't think any one can argue the NLP and UP are very heavy state land which majority of hunters have no access to food plots so baiting is what they have to use. But these areas have very little to no know cases. SLP has very little state land mostly ag and those are where cases are rising. Take Jackson County
2018 1542 tested 2 positive, roughly .125%
2019 1704 tested 7 positive, roughly .04%
Appears no testing done in 2020
2021 currently 553 tested 12 positive 2.1%


----------



## 98885

RHRoss said:


> I will agree if the food plot is specifically grown to lure deer to be shot over, then, yes, I agree that is baiting, but I also feel if it is grown and not hunted over then it’s a food source


Sure that's fair. I just don't want the DNR to ban food plots just because they can. Michigan has lost enough hunters. What incentive would that offer Michigan deer hunters if they banned food plots for hunters ? I think they've done enough damage to the hunter numbers.


----------



## 98885

Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman
[/QUOTE]


amped said:


> Agreed. My problem is they are going off of data from 50 years ago and the solution back then was to just kill them all. Not enough to say if it can be prevented. I don't think any one can argue the NLP and UP are very heavy state land which majority of hunters have no access to food plots so baiting is what they have to use. But these areas have very little to no know cases. SLP has very little state land mostly ag and those are where cases are rising. Take Jackson County
> 2018 1542 tested 2 positive, roughly .125%
> 2019 1704 tested 7 positive, roughly .04%
> Appears no testing done in 2020
> 2021 currently 553 tested 12 positive 2.1%


Exactly. Science wasn't followed when they banned baiting. If they banned it in those SLP counties, it wouldn't effect any hunter because rarely do they bait in that region.


----------



## RHRoss

>WingIt< said:


> If you plant oak trees on your property is that baiting? They will attract deer and are good spots to hunt.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


My property is full of Oak and Hickory, I don’t consider them bait, I didn’t plant them, I consider them a natural food source


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## Waif

RHRoss said:


> My property is full of Oak and Hickory, I don’t consider them bait, I didn’t plant them, I consider them a natural food source


If I collect acorns elsewhere and spread them pre-hunt on my property to increase the amount of natural sourced food , are they bait? Or natural?

Is the hickory on my property natural , though likely placed there by a former resident?

We split a lot of hairs debating bait vs food vs what is natural.
My area was white pine pre logging area. Is it natural today?
What would it be today if the pines were not logged? More , or less natural?


----------



## RHRoss

Waif said:


> If I collect acorns elsewhere and spread them pre-hunt on my property to increase the amount of natural sourced food , are they bait? Or natural?
> 
> Is the hickory on my property natural , though likely placed there by a former resident?
> 
> We split a lot of hairs debating bait vs food vs what is natural.
> My area was white pine pre logging area. Is it natural today?
> What would it be today if the pines were not logged? More , or less natural?


I think if ya gather up the acorns and hickory nuts and move them to hunt over it’s bait, if ya leave’em where they fall it’s not, IMO. I also feel if the hickory was there already when ya bought the property, even if planted by previous owners, then I think it is at least natural to you


----------



## 98885

Had a buddy's cousin pull corn stalks from the ground in a farm field in late September and replant it on his property. That's one hell of a stretch but he killed over that food source. Not sure if its legal or not and never really saw language on it in the hunting guide.


----------



## Sasquatch Lives

I do a lot of hunting and talk to a lot of hunters, some of which hunt public land, some private and some of which I am pretty sure are baiting. AND not one person has been busted by the DNR for baiting and no one even has heard of anyone being busted. Why did they outlaw it if they refuse to enforce it? Friggin stupid.


----------



## Waif

RHRoss said:


> I think if ya gather up the acorns and hickory nuts and move them to hunt over it’s bait, if ya leave’em where they fall it’s not, IMO. I also feel if the hickory was there already when ya bought the property, even if planted by previous owners, then I think it is at least natural to you


I'm arguing where to draw the line.
I plant a tree for fruit for deer vs haul in fruit. Fruit still exists unnaturally in my opinion. Or an oak.
I add it , deer eat it. Where did natural begin and end?

Former pasture , then cornfield. Now a mix of volunteer natural and unnatural browse. My property reflects a lot of human influence.
Even had a few corncobs when acquired. Former bait site.

Imagine anything deliberately planted for deer being illegal.
How retroactive would we go with it? An old apple orchard not used to sell apples from legal to hunt?
What if I spray trees , use apples for a few pies , cider , and apple wine for my own use only? (I've paid for certain blends of cider from certain apple types mixed for balance to make hard cider and wine , not like it's a new concept to evade baiting regulations.)
French style in a certain region , apples rest on ground pre crushing and pressing. Depending on "natural" yeast.
Is that baiting if hunted?
And when I mow for wheelchair access or to not struggle through volunteer plants in fallow areas on crutches which I do, am I baiting when deer browse forbs in exposed areas?


----------



## RHRoss

Sasquatch Lives said:


> I do a lot of hunting and talk to a lot of hunters, some of which hunt public land, some private and some of which I am pretty sure are baiting. AND not one person has been busted by the DNR for baiting and no one even has heard of anyone being busted. Why did they outlaw it if they refuse to enforce it? Friggin stupid.


Yup, pretty dumb huh?They allow baiting in the UP and for the special hunts, but not bow or regular firearm or muzzy, seems to me it surely ain’t cuz of disease spread or science huh? Makes one wonder what their logic is.


----------



## RHRoss

Waif said:


> I'm arguing where to draw the line.
> I plant a tree for fruit for deer vs haul in fruit. Fruit still exists unnaturally in my opinion. Or an oak.
> I add it , deer eat it. Where did natural begin and end?
> 
> Former pasture , then cornfield. Now a mix of volunteer natural and unnatural browse. My property reflects a lot of human influence.
> Even had a few corncobs when acquired. Former bait site.
> 
> Imagine anything deliberately planted for deer being illegal.
> How retroactive would we go with it? An old apple orchard not used to sell apples from legal to hunt?
> What if I spray trees , use apples for a few pies , cider , and apple wine for my own use only? (I've paid for certain blends of cider from certain apple types mixed for balance to make hard cider and wine , not like it's a new concept to evade baiting regulations.)
> French style in a certain region , apples rest on ground pre crushing and pressing. Depending on "natural" yeast.
> Is that baiting if hunted?
> And when I mow for wheelchair access or to not struggle through volunteer plants in fallow areas on crutches which I do, am I baiting when deer browse forbs in exposed areas?


Waif, it sure is a tough call deciphering what is and what isn’t huh? I’m going with if I plant it or drop it specifically to lure deer to kill/shoot off it, then I’m calling it bait, if I don’t hunt/shoot over it then I call it a food source, y’all have me thinking!!!


----------



## mbrewer

johnIV said:


> I haven't done any research because it really doesn't matter whether the DNR follow science or not. The truth is what they say it is. It won't stop them from imposing a ban or changing rules they've decided on changing. Not researching but only speculating, haven't most and I mean almost all of the deer with CWD come from places where baiting really isn't common ? Could be wrong but seems it's been in those counties where bait isn't popular.


The risks of baiting are well known. Lessor known are those associated with defensive baiting.

A by all that is holy true ass story.


----------



## mbrewer

JohnnyB87 said:


> At one point not paying taxes to Great Britan was illegal. Maybe the baiters are simply just patriots exercising a rebellion? 🤭


Yes, but mostly peaceful of course.


----------



## 98885

mbrewer said:


> The risks of baiting are well known. Lessor known are those associated with defensive baiting.
> 
> A by all that is holy true ass story.


What's defensive baiting ?


----------



## mbrewer

johnIV said:


> Because Ag IS BAITING !!! Ok, hunting over bait to make it a little more accurate. I've hunted a bean field almost every day this week and not for one minute have I thought I'm not hunting over bait.


_“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you. Do you understand the rights I have just read to you? With these rights in mind, do you wish to speak to me?”_


----------



## mbrewer

johnIV said:


> What's defensive baiting ?


Good question


----------



## Waif

RHRoss said:


> Waif, it sure is a tough call deciphering what is and what isn’t huh? I’m going with if I plant it or drop it specifically to lure deer to kill/shoot off it, then I’m calling it bait, if I don’t hunt/shoot over it then I call it a food source, y’all have me thinking!!!


Having not killed a deer this year (yet.) , I should be able to stay out of jail for baiting with intent to commit murder.
Unless the judge is happy enough with "unintentional intent" being a crime by being within a mile of a "legitimate" ag. field.

I'll plant again next year after this years hiatus , to have more browse. (Premeditation , I know.)
Do deer need more browse? They do on my site. Not that it's overwhelmed with deer.
When I had a crop in the past I've not killed seen deer in it.
But any deer I saw could relate to it still also. With many of those seen , walking in or near the crop eventually. 
Guilt by association if a deer was killed anywhere but the planted stuff? 
Most snacked after leaving beds before heading out to nightly destinations. With beds the more likely draw than the planted browse. Mornings they (some could , they trend nomadic at times)) filter back into bedding areas.

Would the right bait "draw" more deer? I wouldn't / won't know till it's tried.
My plot when functional (planted) has not anchored much during firearm. They're still deer....


----------



## Sasquatch Lives

RHRoss said:


> Yup, pretty dumb huh?They allow baiting in the UP and for the special hunts, but not bow or regular firearm or muzzy, seems to me it surely ain’t cuz of disease spread or science huh? Makes one wonder what their logic is.


I don't get it either.


----------



## RHRoss

Waif said:


> Having not killed a deer this year (yet.) , I should be able to stay out of jail for baiting with intent to commit murder.
> Unless the judge is happy enough with "unintentional intent" being a crime by being within a mile of a "legitimate" ag. field.
> 
> I'll plant again next year after this years hiatus , to have more browse. (Premeditation , I know.)
> Do deer need more browse? They do on my site. Not that it's overwhelmed with deer.
> When I had a crop in the past I've not killed seen deer in it.
> But any deer I saw could relate to it still also. With many of those seen , walking in or near the crop eventually.
> Guilt by association if a deer was killed anywhere but the planted stuff?
> Most snacked after leaving beds before heading out to nightly destinations. With beds the more likely draw than the planted browse. Mornings they (some could , they trend nomadic at times)) filter back into bedding areas.
> 
> Would the right bait "draw" more deer? I wouldn't / won't know till it's tried.
> My plot when functional (planted) has not anchored much during firearm. They're still deer....


As long as ya don’t gather it, buy it, move it, drop it or pile it,,, it ain’t bait, shoot away and don’t feel guilty about it at ALL… I don’t know where your at, but if it was about meat I would bring ya one, I have already shot two good bucks and three does off my farm, could take a couple does more but my goals have been met


----------



## 98885

mbrewer said:


> _“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you. Do you understand the rights I have just read to you? With these rights in mind, do you wish to speak to me?”_


I might be just a little familiar with that but haven't had it read to me personally in the last 40 years.


----------



## miruss

ohio up hunter said:


> If CWD is in check


It must be DNER checked about 20000 deer less then 2018 for cwd !! Plus w have people pushing for more APR'S when it's a known fact that older bucks are more likely to have and spread CWD.


----------



## amon

I've found that a lot of deer hunters are master baiters.


----------



## RHRoss

amon said:


> I've found that a lot of deer hunters are master baiters.


We’ll since they banned them from baiting they gotta have something to do to stay warm while sitting there not seeing anything


----------



## 2stix-and-a-string

All my neighbors bait.....they make these food plots that are nothing more than a way to disguise their bait. Winter rye and chicory looks green until you get close, then you can see all the yellow covering the ground within it.
When neighbors see these deer in the “food plots” from a distance, you assume they’re eating the green....not!!!
It takes a lot of time and energy to create successful food plots, just to have cheating neighbors beat you with a $10 bag of corn.
Maybe if you can’t beat them, join them.
Guess a baiting fine is much cheaper than time/money put into food plots. 🤔


----------



## bucko12pt

RHRoss said:


> Yup, pretty dumb huh?They allow baiting in the UP and for the special hunts, but not bow or regular firearm or muzzy, seems to me it surely ain’t cuz of disease spread or science huh? Makes one wonder what their logic is.


The NRC and DNR don’t pay a lot of attention to logic when they’re making policy, so don’t expect that when you try to understand what they’re intentions are.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

2stix-and-a-string said:


> It takes a lot of time and energy to create successful food plots, just to have cheating neighbors beat you with a $10 bag of corn.


THIS was pretty much the point of my original post!

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Mole Hill

Most threads like this are locked before I get through reading them. Unfortunately this wasn't one of them.


----------



## Darwin

The way to deal with the baiting problem is do what 1 DNR officer said to me. You find a bait pile on state land pour a gallon of diesel fuel all over it. Deer avoid it then, and no more diseases spread. 
Also allows hunting to be "fair chase" instead of shooting deer at McDonald's.


----------



## DEDGOOSE

Mole Hill said:


> Most threads like this are locked before I get through reading them. Unfortunately this wasn't one of them.


I'm trying to catch up.. If I responded to every post I want to it will be locked before I'm done responding

Carry on


----------



## grouse25

Darwin said:


> The way to deal with the baiting problem is do what 1 DNR officer said to me. You find a bait pile on state land pour a gallon of diesel fuel all over it. Deer avoid it then, and no more diseases spread.
> Also allows hunting to be "fair chase" instead of shooting deer at McDonald's.


I can’t believe a CO would recommend dumping Diesel fuel on a bait pile…..I have heard of one guy getting busted this season for baiting. Stateland in Roscommon county. The CO told him he had written roughly 30 tickets for baiting. His ticket was 295. With it being all about selling license to make money I’m surprised they are not out there writing more of these tickets. At that price it pays the CO salary for the day with one ticket.



Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## 7mmsendero

mbrewer said:


> At this point you not understanding me is your problem, not mine. Find a way to deal with it that doesn't require my assistance.


Fair enough, life goes on. From what I can see we have the same point of view in regards to rules and laws. That's good, we don't need to be jerks to each other.


----------



## mbrewer

7mmsendero said:


> Fair enough, life goes on. From what I can see we have the same point of view in regards to rules and laws. That's good, we don't need to be jerks to each other.


I agree. I shouldn't have been rude, that's on me.


----------



## 98885

mbrewer said:


> I agree. I shouldn't have been rude, that's on me.


Group Hug


----------



## Red Ark

I shot a 8pt this year and when I walked up to it I noticed corn on the ground near its head. Now this is in a cut corn field but there wasn't any left over corn on stalks or on the ground. There also wasn't any bait on my property. I seen this deer at first light, it took off into the woods after a doe with another buck and it came back 35 mins later and I shot it.. My first thought was the buck left my property, went to the neighbors property, ate on a bait pile and came back to mine. I know the neighbor wasn't hunting on the 2nd day because his car wasn't there. The buck must have coughed the corn up when it was dying. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## LITTLECLEO

And the BEAT goes on and ON,lol


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----------



## sureshot006

LITTLECLEO said:


> And the BEAT goes on and ON,lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


The "beet" goes on


----------



## Dish7

sureshot006 said:


> I think part of the issue is most baiters create literal piles. They couldn't even do 10'x10'. I don't understand it. Why not spread it out over 50x50 or more?


I have a question. Maybe a little off topic but...when baiting was legal, why the 2 gallon limit? Or the 10x10? I guess to prevent state land from being a garbage dump? Otherwise who cares?

Okay, that was four similar questions, lol.


----------



## sureshot006

Dish7 said:


> I have a question. Maybe a little off topic but...when baiting was legal, why the 2 gallon limit? Or the 10x10? I guess to prevent state land from being a garbage dump? Otherwise who cares?
> 
> Okay, that was four similar questions, lol.


I thought it was to keep noses 4 ft apart instead of 1


----------



## Dish7

sureshot006 said:


> I thought it was to keep noses 4 ft apart instead of 1


So even when it was legal pre CWD it was a disease concern?


----------



## Bucman

Dish7 said:


> So even when it was legal pre CWD it was a disease concern?


I think it was more to limit season long dump truck loads more than anything.


----------



## JS714

Dish7 said:


> So even when it was legal pre CWD it was a disease concern?


I think it was bovine tb they were worried about at first.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

LITTLECLEO said:


> And the BEAT goes on and ON,lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Shouldn't it be the "cheat" goes on......??

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## sureshot006

Dish7 said:


> So even when it was legal pre CWD it was a disease concern?


I don't know. I suspect more pressure from certain groups than actual disease concern.


----------



## Dish7

Bucman said:


> I think it was more to limit season long dump truck loads more than anything.





JS714 said:


> I think it was bovine tb they were worried about at first.


Kinda of what I was remembering. Never really made sense to me even then. Someone could take a little out everyday to the same spot but you couldn't dump several days worth out. Just curious because it was mentioned in another thread a few day ago that Ohio allows unlimited on private but not public. Not even sure if that's true.


----------



## sureshot006

Dish7 said:


> Kinda of what I was remembering. Never really made sense to me even then. Someone could take a little out everyday to the same spot but you couldn't dump several days worth out. Just curious because it was mentioned in another thread a few day ago that Ohio allows unlimited on private but not public. Not even sure if that's true.


I was told by guys hunting Kansas that they could, and did, legally bait the leases but not public.


----------



## brookie1

People forgot their history already about the TB outbreak and truckloads of bait in club country? That was the start of baiting bans. Anything allowed after that on any basis was to appease the hunting population.


----------



## sureshot006

brookie1 said:


> People forgot their history already about the TB outbreak and truckloads of bait in club country? That was the start of baiting bans. Anything allowed after that on any basis was to appease the hunting population.


truckloads are done for. Covered trailers are in vogue.


----------



## brookie1

sureshot006 said:


> truckloads are done for. Covered trailers are in vogue.


Laws don't stop criminals. They never will.


----------



## sureshot006

brookie1 said:


> Laws don't stop criminals. They never will.


Tb seems stable with the low deer numbers in much of the area so I'm not sure just how much difference it makes. Probably more with Tb than cwd.


----------



## Wild Thing

brookie1 said:


> People forgot their history already about the TB outbreak and truckloads of bait in club country? That was the start of baiting bans. Anything allowed after that on any basis was to appease the hunting population.


I beg to differ with you on this one Brookie. The baiting ban in DMU 122 in the UP was strictly in response to the one CWD positive allegedly found in Dickinson county 3 1/2 years ago. Baiting was banned and APR regs were axed in accordance with the DNR CWD Response Plan. Baiting is still allowed in the remainder remainder of the UP. The ban had nothing to do with special interest groups - Yoopers have been baiting forever and have no plans to stop any time soon.

The hipocracy of it all is that while the DNR can pat themselves on the back for following the CWD response plan, they apparently have a “Zero Enforcement Policy” on the ban so baiting continues as it always has which does absolutely nothing for disease mitigation. 

The other side of that coin is that the shroud of secrecy surrounding the genetic profiling of the suspect CWD deer leaves almost everyone to believe that we really never had a CWD issue here to begin with. Nobody has ever bought into it and 3 1/2 years later the DNR still refuses to tell us if the suspect deer was even remotely related to any other deer in Dickinson County

The DNR did this all on their own with virtually no influence from outside interests.


----------



## brookie1

Wild Thing said:


> I beg to differ with you on this one Brookie. The baiting ban in DMU 122 in the UP was strictly in response to the one CWD positive allegedly found in Dickinson county 3 1/2 years ago. Baiting was banned and APR regs were axed in accordance with the DNR CWD Response Plan. Baiting is still allowed in the remainder remainder of the UP. The ban had nothing to do with special interest groups - Yoopers have been baiting forever and have no plans to stip any time soon.
> 
> The hipocracy of it all is that while the DNR can pat themselves on the back for following the CWD response plan, they apparently have a “Zero Enforcement Policy” on the ban so baiting continues as it always has which does absolutely nothing for disease mitigation.
> 
> The other side of that coin is that the shroud of secrecy surrounding the genetic profiling of the suspect CWD deer leaves almost everyone to believe that we really never had a CWD issue here to begin with. Nobody has ever bought into it and 3 1/2 years later the DNR still refuses to tell us if the suspect deer was even remotely related to any other deer in Dickinson County
> 
> The DNR did this all on their own with virtually no influence from outside interests.


I know there have been a couple special cases since the original TB outbreak. And that took baiting away, not allowed it. I was referring to the original cause of baiting bans and the historical as well as current regulations. The NRC for example was the brain child of the current regulations with respect to a couple special seasons and baiting in the UP. It had nothing to do with disease mitigation, just "let's give the groups qualifying for special hunts a break." Concerning the UP, the thought was that it's already a big part of the way UP hunters hunt so let's keep it. The 2 gallon limit (thought process - let's give them something) was much the same thing when thought up many years ago. It is what it is.


----------



## brookie1

sureshot006 said:


> Tb seems stable with the low deer numbers in much of the area so I'm not sure just how much difference it makes. Probably more with Tb than cwd.


Yup. Let them break the law. Who's it hurting.


----------



## sureshot006




----------



## sureshot006

I could swear there was a post here maybe 2019 or 2020 stating the member knew of a club that was cited for baiting in the tb zone.


----------



## 98885

brookie1 said:


> Yup. Let them break the law. Who's it hurting.


I don't get it tho. They have the ability to catch and fine ALOT of hunters. Why ban baiting if there not going to enforce it. We know there all about revenue. Ticket writing brings in revenue. Make the fines hefty and don't revolk hunting license priveledges. They won't lose money from license sales but gain in ticket writing. It's a win, win, especially for hunters that want to see baiting stop for everyone, not just the rule followers.


----------



## brookie1

johnIV said:


> I don't get it tho. They have the ability to catch and fine ALOT of hunters. Why ban baiting if there not going to enforce it. We know there all about revenue. Ticket writing brings in revenue. Make the fines hefty and don't revolk hunting license priveledges. They won't lose money from license sales but gain in ticket writing. It's a win, win, especially for hunters that want to see baiting stop for everyone, not just the rule followers.


Most think like you with the ticket = revenue thing and who banned baiting. Let's start at the beginning. Most game law violations are misdemeanors, meaning they are criminal offenses. Instead of arresting people and booking them, a ticket is written to appear in court. The court of jurisdiction (usually county court) handles the case. It appears most just plead guilty without hiring an attorney and pay a fine for most offenses. That's fine I guess, criminal records don't seem to mean anything to most people. The fines and court costs go to the court adjudicating the case except for 10 dollars which goes to the game/fish fund, not exactly a big money maker. Next, why isn't it enforced? Well it is, but it's added to everything else COs deal with. There are about 200 COs in the entire state (maybe 220) over 9 management districts, so they are probably stretched a little thin. I'm sure they deal with cases with the highest probability of conviction in addition to random checks of licenses and other duties. It's not like your local police department which probably has a 100 or more officers in just your town. Not every call to the RAP line is going to get an instance response, or a response at all. Finally, the NRC and legislature put the rules in place and it's the responsibility of the DNR to enforce them. We set that up in 1996 with prop G which took away DNR power and gave it the newly created NRC.

From purely a money perspective, the best "bang for the buck" would be to actually catch someone poaching a deer off an illegal bait pile. Then there are minimum jail times, license revocation, and most importantly restitution which starts at 1,000 per deer, 2,000 if a buck, and 6,000 or more if the buck has at least 8 points. That money goes directly to the game/fish fund.

I think I got most of this right. Someone will correct me if not.


----------



## 98885

brookie1 said:


> Most think like you with the ticket = revenue thing and who banned baiting. Let's start at the beginning. Most game law violations are misdemeanors, meaning they are criminal offenses. Instead of arresting people and booking them, a ticket is written to appear in court. The court of jurisdiction (usually county court) handles the case. It appears most just plead guilty without hiring an attorney and pay a fine for most offenses. That's fine I guess, criminal records don't seem to mean anything to most people. The fines and court costs go to the court adjudicating the case except for 10 dollars which goes to the game/fish fund, not exactly a big money maker. Next, why isn't it enforced? Well it is, but it's added to everything else COs deal with. There are about 200 COs in the entire state (maybe 220) over 9 management districts, so they are probably stretched a little thin. I'm sure they deal with cases with the highest probability of conviction in addition to random checks of licenses and other duties. It's not like your local police department which probably has a 100 or more officers in just your town. Not every call to the RAP line is going to get an instance response, or a response at all. Finally, the NRC and legislature put the rules in place and it's the responsibility of the DNR to enforce them. We set that up in 1996 with prop G which took away DNR power and gave it the newly created NRC.
> 
> From purely a money perspective, the best "bang for the buck" would be to actually catch someone poaching a deer off an illegal bait pile. Then there are minimum jail times, license revocation, and most importantly restitution which starts at 1,000 per deer, 2,000 if a buck, and 6,000 or more if the buck has at least 8 points. That money goes directly to the game/fish fund.
> 
> I think I got most of this right. Someone will correct me if not.


You do but so the answer is just Don't bother?
These are things I am aware of as I have a little knowledge of this area. Like saying speeding tickets aren't generating enough revenue. I understand the low numbers of COs. That's for sure a big part of it but I just don't see any data showing many baiting tickets written. I also know one local CO said they respond to calls and reports of baiting. That's around 95% of the baiting tickets written.


----------



## brookie1

johnIV said:


> You do but so the answer is just Don't bother?
> These are things I am aware of as I have a little knowledge of this area. Like saying speeding tickets aren't generating enough revenue. I understand the low numbers of COs. That's for sure a big part of it but I just don't see any data showing many baiting tickets written. I also know one local CO said they respond to calls and reports of baiting. That's around 95% of the baiting tickets written.


I have no idea if you are asking a question or trying to make a point. What does this mean? "You do but so the answer is just Don't bother?"


----------



## Waif

Wild Thing said:


> I beg to differ with you on this one Brookie. The baiting ban in DMU 122 in the UP was strictly in response to the one CWD positive allegedly found in Dickinson county 3 1/2 years ago. Baiting was banned and APR regs were axed in accordance with the DNR CWD Response Plan. Baiting is still allowed in the remainder remainder of the UP. The ban had nothing to do with special interest groups - Yoopers have been baiting forever and have no plans to stop any time soon.
> 
> The hipocracy of it all is that while the DNR can pat themselves on the back for following the CWD response plan, they apparently have a “Zero Enforcement Policy” on the ban so baiting continues as it always has which does absolutely nothing for disease mitigation.
> 
> The other side of that coin is that the shroud of secrecy surrounding the genetic profiling of the suspect CWD deer leaves almost everyone to believe that we really never had a CWD issue here to begin with. Nobody has ever bought into it and 3 1/2 years later the DNR still refuses to tell us if the suspect deer was even remotely related to any other deer in Dickinson County
> 
> The DNR did this all on their own with virtually no influence from outside interests.


We attended a C.W.D. symposium early on.
To get the facts from the horses mouth so to speak , and plan forward accordingly.

I / we some of us were (who knows if we still are) in a "hot" zone. Not a maybe. Not a random positive test as in your case. But hot.

From year one until now what has changed in C.W.D. response and in hunter perceptions has been a constant whipsaw and evolving change in directions.

Personally I regarded the "experiment" zone as having lots of potential for multiple studies. 
Firstly on C.W.D. prevalence confirmation between sexes of deer , and age classes. 
That in my opinion went out the window when testing of our kills ceased. IF the state is sampling , it matters little to hunters bringing home untested deer. Or anyone considering consuming them.
That does affect perspectives, and not positively.

The A.P.R. of four on a side. ..
Being surrounded by private land , should I/we expect hunters to quit , or increase participation , or hunt the same?
Again , I'm not concerned about the states findings.
I'm more curious of if the older bucks with or without an A.P.R. host C.W.D. more per animal than younger deer.
If my reasoning for questioning is not clear , I can expound on it. For now let's say , if they'd test the older bucks the A.P.R. should produce I'd be more comfortable supporting the increased requirement I support.

But why you had the/a A.P.R. dropped....When testing here is flopped , escapes me. Even if it is an alleged experiment in either place.
If a hot zone can be "tested" for older age bucks in a hot zone ,spread is inevitable if they do test higher.
Where in your case the area has not been proven warm , let alone hot.

Yes , there can be good reasons for inconsistency. I don't see any worth it though in your case.

Baiting...I suspect had multiple underlying reasons to be shunned by the state. Beyond disease in T.B. areas.
Just as there were/ are underlying reasons for allowing baiting.
It is inconsistent too though. Then , mostly unenforced.

It's one thing to steer legally among regulations.
It's another thing to steer through regulations ignored by others and the effect that has.
Then , steering through regulations opposite regulations elsewhere ;for reasons that leave you scratching your head as to why. While those making the regulations don't explain thier true rationale of the resulting hodge podge. (Assuming they know..)


----------



## 98885

brookie1 said:


> I have no idea if you are asking a question or trying to make a point. What does this mean? "You do but so the answer is just Don't bother?"


"You do" meaning you did get most of it correct. The "so the answer is just don't bother" meaning so they just shouldn't bother doing their jobs at all unless they get a call. Maybe that's exactly how they planned on doing it. Kinda like report all poaching. They don't necessarily look for it but when calls come in, they respond.


----------



## brookie1

johnIV said:


> They don't necessarily look for it but when calls come in, they respond.


I think it's unfair to make comments like "they shouldn't bother doing their jobs". They have other responsibilities besides chasing down illegal bait piles. Considering how big Michigan is, how much hunting effort is done on private land (about 85 percent), and without first hand knowledge it's probably true that they respond to RAP calls. I don't think COs are just going to go on private land looking for bait piles without a RAP line call. So that leaves the millions of acres of state land, still a daunting task. They may also see it as part of a call on a different issue. We had good luck busting an entire hunting party by calling in to the RAP line with GPS coordinates of the illegal bait piles. The CO showed up and went to each site and wrote up tickets. The next day the bait was gone and all the blinds even had the users name on the sides. I am sure the more details provided, the more likely a CO will respond.


----------



## Dappetdanny

BigWoods Bob said:


> I posted this in response to a post in another thread, however, I wanted to make a thread for this single topic, to get everyone's thoughts on it.
> 
> The original post that got me to thinking about this, was someone mentioning the fact that their food plots, were ultimately about worthless, due to the amount of illegal Baiting going on in their area.
> 
> Here was my response:
> ................................................
> 
> Ain't that the Truth!! I have 250ac., in Northern Clare County (all Big Woods and Swamps--zero AG for miles), on which I have over 8ac., of Food Plots. We hunt it VERY lightly and strategically, and I have multiple Cell Cameras to monitor the property and plots. I also have some of the very best security cover in the section.
> 
> Over the past couple of years, we've begun to notice a trend, where the deer sightings (from cell cameras and our observations), have drastically dropped as we roll into November.
> 
> This has left us REALLY scratching our heads, as we typically hunt only Oct. 1st-3rd, and then stay out until at least Oct. 25th (or later, depending on weather). Several of the deer we've taken over the last several seasons, when gutted, we've found to have corn and/or carrots in their stomachs, but it wasn't until this year that I began to fully realize what was likely happening.
> 
> I was buying some vegetables, apple cider, and such at a local "Farm" style market, and made a comment to the kid running the cash register, about the huge piles of Sugar beets, carrots and stacks of corn bags. (Mind you....we are 2 1/2 hour drive from the UP where baiting is legal)
> 
> His response made things click like a light bulb! He said..(and I paraphrase)...."We're selling more bait now, than before the ban, but the largest volume of sales has shifted more towards late October up to right before rifle season."
> 
> When I mentioned that it was illegal to bait, he chuckled, and then he said three things that resonated...
> 
> 1. "It might be illegal to use it, but it's not illegal to sell it."
> 
> 2. "Most guys won't put it out on State Land, but a LOT of the private land guys mostly say screw the DNR....I'll do what I want on my property!"
> 
> 3. "My uncle owns a bunch of private property, and he says you basically HAVE to bait, just to keep deer from being drawn off your property-- he calls it "Defensive Baiting".
> 
> I don't know if the kid was BS'ing me, exaggerating, or not, but in light of what we've observed over the past few years, it makes us start to wonder?
> 
> Anyone else noticed this on their places, or am I grasping at straws??
> 
> ............................................
> 
> What are everyone's thoughts, experiences, etc., on this issue??
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Thanks for posting as I was asking the same exact questions. I've been scratching my head for the last few years too. I have 260 acres in Clare county, all woods and some swamps with 3 acres of food plots. Same observations. I observed the deer go nocturnal around the rifle hunts mid to end of September and you start seeing them again in the day early to mid December. I always saw deer in the daytime before these gun hunts started. Now, you'll see deer frequently (one every four hours) when the rut starts, or at least be in the stand for only the last 30 minutes of daylight in the evening or first 30 minutes in the am.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

Dappetdanny said:


> Thanks for posting as I was asking the same exact questions. I've been scratching my head for the last few years too. I have 260 acres in Clare county, all woods and some swamps with 3 acres of food plots. Same observations. I observed the deer go nocturnal around the rifle hunts mid to end of September and you start seeing them again in the day early to mid December. I always saw deer in the daytime before these gun hunts started. Now, you'll see deer frequently (one every four hours) when the rut starts, or at least be in the stand for only the last 30 minutes of daylight in the evening or first 30 minutes in the am.


Given all the shots I heard "right at dark", or after, tonight, I'd say there is still a fair amount going on, but I agree, the worst time seems to be between mid-October through 1st week of firearms season. 

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----------



## sureshot006

BigWoods Bob said:


> Given all the shots I heard "right at dark", or after, tonight, I'd say there is still a fair amount going on, but I agree, the worst time seems to be between mid-October through 1st week of firearms season.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Why assume shots in the last few minutes are because of bait?


----------



## retired dundo

johnIV said:


> I'm aware of that. My sidearm is loaded all day and on my person. No crime right ? Only when I carry my rifle from stand to quad is it loaded. Sure it's a violation and one that I've been checked by the DNR for. They sure didn't seem to be as concerned as you are about it. They simply let me know it should be unloaded after shooting hours end. No tickets, no felonies. I explained why I keep it loaded. They understood my intent. Since that incident I have carried my sidearm on rifle hunts. Simple fix to an not so simple rule. Thanks for the concern.


I allways load mine soon as I get in my blind Other wise I forget to load it at legal time.I usually unload it at quitting time for same reason


----------



## Next Bite

Hi Bob, Your original post is smash on and it is an issue for the entire state on private property. Sad to say but I have pretty much stopped hunting in Michigan and mostly hunt out of state for deer because of what’s going on in this state right now. I enjoy hunting the most in the other states that don’t allow baiting, getting back to the basics of hunting pinch points, draws, fence lines etc.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

sureshot006 said:


> Why assume shots in the last few minutes are because of bait?


You're right....I'm sure every shot was at a deer exiting a bedding area at last light. My bad....

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----------



## sureshot006

BigWoods Bob said:


> You're right....I'm sure every shot was at a deer exiting a bedding area at last light. My bad....
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I dunno... my last 4 deer were first or last light. It's a time when deer are moving.


----------



## BigWoods Bob

Next Bite said:


> Hi Bob, Your original post is smash on and it is an issue for the entire state on private property. Sad to say but I have pretty much stopped hunting in Michigan and mostly hunt out of state for deer because of what’s going on in this state right now. I enjoy hunting the most in the other states that don’t allow baiting, getting back to the basics of hunting pinch points, draws, fence lines etc.


I hear you Scott, and agree 100%. I'm quickly losing interest here in Michigan as well. I'll be honest, I've thought about throwing bait out on the property, just to keep deer around (even if we don't hunt over it), but we have several young hunters that hunt with us (one of them my Son), and I just can't bring myself to set a bad example about respecting the game laws for them.... It's a very sad commentary on our hunting culture in this State, that so many do, and so many others, choose to turn a blind eye to it. 

Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Hausser

ryan-b said:


> Baiters are gunna bait


My daughter used to sing that phrase a lot...


----------



## 7mmsendero

Dish7 said:


> I have a question. Maybe a little off topic but...when baiting was legal, why the 2 gallon limit? Or the 10x10? I guess to prevent state land from being a garbage dump? Otherwise who cares?
> 
> Okay, that was four similar questions, lol.


That's a great question, I don't think I can remember anything that was scientific every coming out. It seemed like it was arbitrary, and the folks making rules figured there would be minimal disease transmission with 2 gallons.


----------



## Bucman

260 acres? I think you should work on your ground so the deer want to stay there. Then if people bait you still can hunt the deer before they leave. I'm wouldn't give up so easy. Adapt to the circumstances.
When I looked at my situation years ago I either changed or would have the same seasons again as again.

btw it's illegal I know but nothing is changing with it so work around it. 
On the bright side you got a lot of ground to work with


----------



## BigWoods Bob

Bucman said:


> 260 acres? I think you should work on your ground so the deer want to stay there. Then if people bait you still can hunt the deer before they leave. I'm wouldn't give up so easy. Adapt to the circumstances.
> When I looked at my situation years ago I either changed or would have the same seasons again as again.
> 
> btw it's illegal I know but nothing is changing with it so work around it.
> On the bright side you got a lot of ground to work with


What part of the State are you located?

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## Bucman

BigWoods Bob said:


> What part of the State are you located?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


West side. Not sure why that matters?


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## BigWoods Bob

Bucman said:


> West side. Not sure why that matters?


AG area, or Big Woods?

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## Bucman

BigWoods Bob said:


> AG area, or Big Woods?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


City
Enjoy your season.


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## 2stix-and-a-string

Ranger Ray said:


> When you pass laws that the majority are against, it is usually what happens. Non compliance with the law. Think, prohibition. Hey! Don't shoot the messenger. I'll make a prediction. As deer numbers decrease, baiting will intensify by those doing it. At least those that keep hunting. But that's for another thread.


Who would have thunk it.
Smoking weed is legal now but damn those who throw corn on the ground.
Sorry.....had to!!!!


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## Schutzhund

Finally finished this thread I'm a bit late, but I was busy reading food plot threads lol. I think the biggest thing I got out of this thread is acreage. I just bought my first house with 9 acres and thought I was set. Don't get me wrong I've scouted all 9 acres and it seems to be a good piece of land, but my god theirs guys on here with 600 acres that just blows my mind. One day I hope to be on your guy's level.


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## Chessieman

Hey, the Mega Millions is up there! 🤪


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## Schutzhund

Chessieman said:


> Hey, the Mega Millions is up there! 🤪


I here it every morning on the radio. That'd be the answer!


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## 98885

Bucman said:


> West side. Not sure why that matters?


It matters


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## Bucman

johnIV said:


> It matters


Why sir? hunting is hunting if its not working change it was the point. Doesn't matter where!


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## 98885

Bucman said:


> Why sir? hunting is hunting if its not working change it was the point. Doesn't matter where!


I say it does because I plant food plots here on my property with fairly good success in deer using them thru the entire season. It's wooded and no agriculture near this land. My lease is 600 acres and a 100 acres are agriculture. I plant food plots on that property also and have poor success with deer using them beyond September. They stay in the Ag fields from September thru November. My plots on that lease are very useful in December and January. If you have land in Agriculture areas, your experience will be different than say wooded land where no Ag is available. It's been my experience and it's all I can go by. It matters here where I hunt.


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## JohnnyB87

It's frustrating because you just never know right? My little 12 has agriculture all around it. I figured my plot wouldn't really work in competition with the corn and beans. Lo and behold it works incredibly well, all season. I think mainly because just south and west of me are undisturbed wood lots, so they just roll out of bed right to me before eventually making their way to the ag.


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## 98885

JohnnyB87 said:


> It's frustrating because you just never know right? My little 12 has agriculture all around it. I figured my plot wouldn't really work in competition with the corn and beans. Lo and behold it works incredibly well, all season. I think mainly because just south and west of me are undisturbed wood lots, so they just roll out of bed right to me before eventually making their way to the ag.


Your correct. I guess I shouldn't have just blanketed the subject that all Ag areas that have food plots close to them will get ignored. It just happens that it's the case for me. Here's a comparison to how all deer are different in what they prefer from location to location. When baiting was allowed in the LP, we used the food blocks. Kinda like a molasses, corn, grain mixed in the 25lb block. The deer love them on my 80 acres. They never lasted two weeks before they were eaten up. On my lease just 30 miles away, the deer won't touch them. They just sit and get dissolved by rain. When the deer approach it and sniff it, they just back off and leave it be. I imagine it's just how all deer are different.


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## Martin Looker

When brother first tried baiting in the UP the deer wouldn't touch beets or corn but they were all over potatoes and oats. This was about 40 years ago.


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## sureshot006

Wild Thing said:


> What is the difference between shooting a deer from a vehicle or shooting a deer over an illegal bait pile. Is one more or less illegal than the other?


Same thing with murder vs speeding lol


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## Wild Thing

sureshot006 said:


> Same thing with murder vs speeding lol


Not at all sureshot - Murder is a felony....speeding is a simple civil infraction.


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## sureshot006

Wild Thing said:


> Not at all sureshot - Murder is a felony....speeding is a simple civil infraction.


Both illegal! One a worse punishment, sure.

We just choose which we care about more.


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## >WingIt<

sureshot006 said:


> Same thing with murder vs speeding lol


Theyre all poaching. A more appt comparison using your scenario would be murder and vehicular homicide. 


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## sureshot006

>WingIt< said:


> Theyre all poaching. A more appt comparison using your scenario would be murder and vehicular homicide.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Yep different punishments. Both illegal.


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## JohnnyB87

Wild Thing said:


> What is the difference between shooting a deer from a vehicle or shooting a deer over an illegal bait pile. Is one more or less illegal than the other?


Not an issue of illegality. An issue of the scale of the damage out in my neighborhood. The night time shine and shoot guys have too big of an advantage of killing the bigger bucks. I don't think the baiters are afforded that level of an advantage


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## Wild Thing

Apples and Oranges JohnnyB. Poaching a deer is poaching a deer. They are both illegal and unethical activities regardless of the methods used.


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## Joe Archer

Wild Thing said:


> What is the difference between shooting a deer from a vehicle or shooting a deer over an illegal bait pile. Is one more or less illegal than the other?


One used to be legal and thus many became dependent. 
One is still legal in parts of Michigan and in other states. The other (to the best of my knowledge) has never been legal.
One has always been considered poaching, the other can still be debated as an effective tool when/where legal. 
<----<<<


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## jacksonmideerhunter

Wild Thing said:


> Apples and Oranges JohnnyB. Poaching a deer is poaching a deer. They are both illegal and unethical activities regardless of the methods used.


I agree that if the activity is illegal, then its just like any other form of illegally taking a deer, its poaching. Don't agree on baiting being unethical though. Unless you just mean unethical to do so in areas that it is banned because its illegal there, then yeah. But I see no issue with it where legal, and use it myself where I can.


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## DirtySteve

Joe Archer said:


> One used to be legal and thus many became dependent.
> One is still legal in parts of Michigan and in other states. The other (to the best of my knowledge) has never been legal.
> One has always been considered poaching, the other can still be debated as an effective tool when/where legal.
> QUOTE]Used to be legal isn't a good excuse though. Lots of things took a long time to change and weed out of society. Segregation comes to mind.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## JohnnyB87

Wild Thing said:


> Apples and Oranges JohnnyB. Poaching a deer is poaching a deer. They are both illegal and unethical activities regardless of the methods used.


You're right, both illegal both unethical. I guess I'm saying one is more unethical, in my opinion. And that dictates how I would respond if I find out that it's going on in my neighborhood.


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## Wild Thing

jacksonmideerhunter said:


> I agree that if the activity is illegal, then its just like any other form of illegally taking a deer, its poaching. Don't agree on baiting being unethical though. Unless you just mean unethical to do so in areas that it is banned because its illegal there, then yeah. But I see no issue with it where legal, and use it myself where I can.


Yes - My reference to ethics is where baiting is prohibited, not where it is still legal. Any violation of the hunting regulations or rules of fair chase are unethical IMO.


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## sureshot006

Don't go chambering a round early now fellas!


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## sparky18181

Don’t prematurely touch one off either. 😎😂


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## sureshot006

sparky18181 said:


> Don’t prematurely touch one off either. 😎😂


Lol well yeah. That's what she said


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## Luv2hunteup

Joe Archer said:


> One used to be legal and thus many became dependent.
> One is still legal in parts of Michigan and in other states. The other (to the best of my knowledge) has never been legal.
> One has always been considered poaching, the other can still be debated as an effective tool when/where legal.
> <----<<<


Hunting deer at night is legal and has been confirmed legal by Federal courts.


https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/documents/TribalNHFAQ.pdf


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## BlackRhino

More time spent debating with legal hunters...

The "elected" made laws, legal a few years ago then the another set of "elected" changed the rules. 

It's not about morals it's about politics and who gets greased the most.

Politics 101

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## mattawanhunter

I'll take the bait,no pun intended!

It's night and day, apples and oranges (or should I say corn) and you know that, is not even a close to the same type of violator, a guy who puts out a few apples so his son he's hunting with, or uses a feeder (that broadcasts a wide area) can see a few deer to hold his interest vs a drunk in a car with a spot light for a trophy or meat!

Food plots are bait!






Wild Thing said:


> What is the difference between shooting a deer from a vehicle or shooting a deer over an illegal bait pile. Is one more or less illegal than the other?


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## Whitetail Freak

Gotta love the poachers.


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## Wild Thing

mattawanhunter said:


> I'll take the bait,no pun intended!
> 
> It's night and day, apples and oranges (or should I say corn) and you know that, is not even a close to the same type of violator, a guy who puts out a few apples so his son he's hunting with, or uses a feeder (that broadcasts a wide area) can see a few deer to hold his interest vs a drunk in a car with a spot light for a trophy or meat!
> 
> Food plots are bait!


Nope - Illegal is illegal IMO Mattawan. Either way the deer was taken illegally. Either the activity is legal or it isn’t - there really isn‘t any “grey area”. The reason illegal baiting is so prevalent is because so many people have the attitude that you suggest. Attitude or perspective doesn't matter - they are still violators.

I am not even going to debate your comment on food plots vs bait. One is perfectly legal and acceptable and the other is illegal…period.


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## Wild Thing

mattawanhunter said:


> Not without your private land & food plots, endless deer farming,tree planting and property management. It's fine if you want to, but you have to admit not. Everybody can and certainly not your Joe lunch bucket who doesn't own property occasional deer hunter, he just gets discouraged and quits hunting!
> 
> You know as well as I do, deer hunting & big buck hunting has become an elitist sport rich man's sport,leases, outrageous guided hunts, land costs,farm equipment, fuel!
> 
> I can't believe how much it cost now to lease good hunting property!
> 
> Not to mention the price per acre to buy!
> 
> Again, most of the area in the UP baiting is legal. I realize the title of the thread but you make it sound so villainous, unbelievable!....


You make it sound like violating is no big deal. If you don’t agree with the law it is OK to violate it. Sorry Mattawan but we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I couldn’t disagree with you more.


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## mattawanhunter

What's the tread topic again?
Oh that's right!

*Amount of (Illegal) baiting in the LP.*






Dish7 said:


> What does following the game laws have to do with anything you just posted? I'd bet that most "Joe Lunch Buckets" follow them just fine.


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## mattawanhunter

Likewise, wild thing I couldn't disagree with you more especially up there. You're being a hypocrite where most of the UP has legal baiting! And you have no leg to stand down about being an elitist landowning food plot baiter!

You were the one that keeps adamantly attacking me because I said something against your opinions, you did the same thing to me years ago about genetics & habitat for antler growth. Got to have the last word got to win!

You Win!












Wild Thing said:


> You make it sound like violating is no big deal. If you don’t agree with the law it is OK to violate it. Sorry Mattawan but we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I couldn’t disagree with you more.


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## sureshot006

Time for this thread to die.


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