# Muzzleloader Shot Placement



## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

bioactive said:


> Ditto on the power belts. I have used hornady xtp 50 cal 240 gr + 100 gr 777 for high shoulder at 130 yards at large buck dropped like sack of potatoes. Killed many with that bullet.


I shoot 110 grains of pyrodex, same bullet. Good stuff!


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## BUCK/PIKE (Oct 24, 2011)

bioactive said:


> Ditto on the power belts. I have used hornady xtp 50 cal 240 gr + 100 gr 777 for high shoulder at 130 yards at large buck dropped like sack of potatoes. Killed many with that bullet.


bio have you always had good luck with xtp's??
Last yr was my first yr shooting then and I took a doe with bullet on left.it broke 2 ribs qtring toward and ended up in hide in opposite rear qtr.no expansion or bullet damage at all!
Very poor blood trail to start with.I was less then impressed.
Bullet on right killed an 8 pt this yr qtring away.broke rib going in and out and shattered scapula of opposite front leg.bullet was lodged in hide.
This bullet made me feel better about round.any poor performance with your use of 240 grain xtp??


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## BUCK/PIKE (Oct 24, 2011)

both were shot out of a knight disk with 100 grain pyrodex pellets with yellow tc sabots and federal shotshell 209's


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## retired dundo (Jul 21, 2015)

Anyone use 250 grain shock wave and how do you like it .I shoot H R muzzelloader with 150 grain pry odex it shoots great but I only shot one buck at 20 yards.So I really don't know how the killing power is at longer distances.


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## protectionisamust (Nov 9, 2010)

retired dundo said:


> Anyone use 250 grain shock wave and how do you like it .


IMO - RUN AWAY FROM THE SHOCKWAVES!! I actually shot 4 deer with them. Highly accurate but I gave up on them when everyone had a pencil through wound channel which prevented any / very minimal blood from hitting the ground. every deer had an entrance and exit the diameter of my pinky finger.

I shot the shockwaves because they where the recommender bullet for my TC Triumph. 

I switched to barnes after deer number 4. I couldnt handle the poor bullet expansion performance.

Here is an old thread last year I had regarding Shockwaves...

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/f...hockwave-250-gr-now-what.523035/#post-5308453


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## protectionisamust (Nov 9, 2010)

Here is this years EAS doe that put me over the edge with the shockwaves. I hit her at 40 yards in the high shoulder and yes - she dropped but notice the tiny pinky size entrance hole. Upon inspection, I found the bullet in the far hide in 10 peices. the round basically exploded upon impact of the bone. It retained vertually zero of its weight. This again was 100 grains of power at 40 yards. 

Yes - dead deer, very accurate at the range but piss poor performance.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

friedperch said:


> Why not double lung? Every single deer I've shot with PBs was a pass through and the deer was dead on its feet. It's all about shot placement.


To answer your question on "Why not double lung?", fried perch ... I can not answer for everyone but in my case I prefer a "brachial plexus' shot over a double lung shot in every case where I do not want my deer to run. If you have been double lunging all of your deer, I do not need to tell you that in most cases they are going to run - often (especially with bigger bucks) 50-100 yards from where they were standing when you shot them. In many cases, so what, it doesn't matter. Right? No big deal. However, if I am hunting on my property line and I have a shot at a nice buck which I do not want running across the line on to a neighboring property, I will anchor it right there on its chin with a 'brachial plexus" (or high shoulder) shot. The BP shot stuns the deer's central nervous system and they will just bring all 4 legs up and drop right there. Often, they don't even quiver - they are stone dead. I also use the BP shot on my Saskatchewan hunts where the outfitter rules are that you must remain in your tree stand until a guide or outfitter arrives unless the deer is dead within sight of you - who wants to wait in a tree stand for maybe a few hours until a guide can get to you - I want to get down there and get my hands on those horns .

That is what I like about a BP shot. Some of my friends almost always prefer a BP shot whenever they have the opportunity. The down side of this shot is that you can pretty much count on scrapping one or both front shoulders because of the trauma to the meat there. When I am shooting does for herd management and freezer meat I almost always prefer a double lung shot which minimizes damage to the shoulder meat.

Pros and cons either way.

Regarding Power Belt bullets, yes I have killed some deer with them. Mostly when I preferred them over patched round balls in my old T/C Hawken. Some were complete pass throughs and some were not. I never found them to group any where near as accurately as what I can shoot with more conventional bullet/sabot combos, and although not frequent, I did get the occasional "flyer" with them. I also have to agree with November Sunrise' observations that I'm not the only one who has arrived at this conclusion. Not sure if you are shooting an older technology rifle or a more modern in-line but there may be better options for you. If they are working well for you in your particular rifle ... that's great!


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

friedperch said:


> So my experience Does Not Count?


Not really the topic is shoulder shot and you are talking about using an inferior bullet for a double lung shot. What is your experience on the topic being discussed?


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Corey K said:


> Using a primitive bullet during a "primitive" season doesn't seem like a good reason for anyone to "flame" you! Congrats!


It is not a primitively season. It is a muzzleloader season.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

protectionisamust said:


> Here is this years EAS doe that put me over the edge with the shockwaves. I hit her at 40 yards in the high shoulder and yes - she dropped but notice the tiny pinky size entrance hole. Upon inspection, I found the bullet in the far hide in 10 peices. the round basically exploded upon impact of the bone. It retained vertually zero of its weight. This again was 100 grains of power at 40 yards.
> 
> Yes - dead deer, very accurate at the range but piss poor performance.


Wow! That is a big doe! Nice going.

I have never personally shot the T/C Shockwave in my rifles but my wife has. The 250 SW is extremely accurate and she dropped a 5 1/2 year old buck on his chin at 100 yds with it. That being said, later that winter I happened to buy Russell Lynch's videos on "Maximizing your Encore" or "Maximizing your Muzzle Loader" (or something similar) and it was an extremely enlightening education on shooting the various black powder components. He did very extensive testing for both accuracy and terminal performance and bullet weight retention into ballistic gel. The regular (yellow tip) 250 grain Shockwave came out right near the bottom on bullet integrity and weight retention. I can't remember for sure but I believe the largest fragment they could find in the ballistic gel was about 40 grains of a 250 grain bullet. The 250 grain, Bonded Core (blue tip) Shockwave, on the other hand held together great and retained almost all of its original weight. My wife has since switched to those. They are almost the same bullet, I believe with the same B/C (ballistic coefficient) and fly the same in her rifle as the yellow tip shockwaves - they just don't explode like the originals. She hasn't shot a deer yet with one but hopefully she will soon.


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## protectionisamust (Nov 9, 2010)

wildthing said:


> Wow! That is a big doe! Nice going.
> 
> I have never personally shot the T/C Shockwave in my rifles but my wife has. The 250 SW is extremely accurate and she dropped a 5 1/2 year old buck on his chin at 100 yds with it. That being said, later that winter I happened to buy Russell Lynch's videos on "Maximizing your Encore" or "Maximizing your Muzzle Loader" (or something similar) and it was an extremely enlightening education on shooting the various black powder components. He did very extensive testing for both accuracy and terminal performance and bullet weight retention into ballistic gel. The regular (yellow tip) 250 grain Shockwave came out right near the bottom on bullet integrity and weight retention. I can't remember for sure but I believe the largest fragment they could find in the ballistic gel was about 40 grains of a 250 grain bullet. The 250 grain, Bonded Core (blue tip) Shockwave, on the other hand held together great and retained almost all of its original weight. My wife has since switched to those. They are almost the same bullet, I believe with the same B/C (ballistic coefficient) and fly the same in her rifle as the yellow tip shockwaves - they just don't explode like the originals. She hasn't shot a deer yet with one but hopefully she will soon.


Thx. Glad I could drive the tractor right up to her!! 

Yes, I was shooting the yellow tipped sabots. I sent them all to the Detroit incinerator along with a few misc. bills and 1 nuddie magizine the wife found in the garage, LMAO!

J/k


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

itchn2fish said:


> Good luck with whatever you decide to utililize. I filled 2 antlerless tags and my remaining buck tag Saturday with my .45cal T/C Hawkins, 80g powder, patched, round ball, very accurate, and they all dropped at the shot. The buck did get up and go about 20 yards before expiring. One of my flintlock-shooting uncles scoffs @ the 1.5-3 power scope that I mounted on this gun a few years ago...he just shakes his head and says, "you ruined that gun"!!! It DOES get in the way during cleaning, as I shallow-tapped the barrel to mount the scope-rings. My quickly failing eyes require a scope for pinpoint accuracy these days. I shot iron sights on all of my guns, since like forever, but now, scopes are on most of my guns. I have no problem with modern muzzleloaders personally, but that uncle of mine and a few of my flintlock shooting friends have expressed thier desire to have a truely "primitive" muzzleloading season. I always get some ribbing when I haul my Hawkins out, and they see the variable scope mounted onto it. Best of luck to all for the remainder of the season!!!


I have to agree with your uncle, itchn2fish - you ruined that rifle. A scope on your Hawken?? C'Mon Man!!  I installed a rear Peep sight on my Hawken almost immediately after buying it (way back when), probably because of my Marine Corps background in shooting military rifles - I just love a peep sight. I know what you mean about the eyesight not keeping up with your age though and I have scopes on all of my rifles now .... except that Hawken ... which remains hanging on the wall for display nowadays. Maybe if you're lucky Santa will bring you a modern in-line muzzle loader for Christmas. They look great with a nice scope mounted on top.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

BUCK/PIKE said:


> bio have you always had good luck with xtp's??
> Last yr was my first yr shooting then and I took a doe with bullet on left.it broke 2 ribs qtring toward and ended up in hide in opposite rear qtr.no expansion or bullet damage at all!
> Very poor blood trail to start with.I was less then impressed.
> Bullet on right killed an 8 pt this yr qtring away.broke rib going in and out and shattered scapula of opposite front leg.bullet was lodged in hide.
> ...


I have taken several deer with the Hornady 240 grain XTP's in the past, although I don't use them anymore. I never had one fail to expand as you experienced and I killed every deer I ever shot with them. That being said, that particular bullet was designed as a pistol bullet - not a rifle bullet. Back in the day, there just were not many rifle bullets available for black powder applications and so the XTP's inserted into sabots were very popular. Today, we have much better options available.


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## friedperch (Jan 8, 2015)

wildthing said:


> To answer your question on "Why not double lung?", fried perch ... I can not answer for everyone but in my case I prefer a "brachial plexus' shot over a double lung shot in every case where I do not want my deer to run. If you have been double lunging all of your deer, I do not need to tell you that in most cases they are going to run - often (especially with bigger bucks) 50-100 yards from where they were standing when you shot them. In many cases, so what, it doesn't matter. Right? No big deal. However, if I am hunting on my property line and I have a shot at a nice buck which I do not want running across the line on to a neighboring property, I will anchor it right there on its chin with a 'brachial plexus" (or high shoulder) shot. The BP shot stuns the deer's central nervous system and they will just bring all 4 legs up and drop right there. Often, they don't even quiver - they are stone dead. I also use the BP shot on my Saskatchewan hunts where the outfitter rules are that you must remain in your tree stand until a guide or outfitter arrives unless the deer is dead within sight of you - who wants to wait in a tree stand for maybe a few hours until a guide can get to you - I want to get down there and get my hands on those horns .
> 
> That is what I like about a BP shot. Some of my friends almost always prefer a BP shot whenever they have the opportunity. The down side of this shot is that you can pretty much count on scrapping one or both front shoulders because of the trauma to the meat there. When I am shooting does for herd management and freezer meat I almost always prefer a double lung shot which minimizes damage to the shoulder meat.
> 
> ...


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## friedperch (Jan 8, 2015)

I'm incorrect, the thought of a deer running away with a double lung hit is not a problem in my situation. Also my inline shoot s 2" groups which is minute of whitetail to me. When I run out I'll switch to Hornadys are the FPBs worthy?


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## retired dundo (Jul 21, 2015)

I want to thank every one for the replies on the shock wave bullet.It is to late to change this year but I will write down all your information and switch next summer.Again thanks for all the advice.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

I am on board with the 240 gr xtps also. After watching a buck go 150 yds without the top half of his heart and either lung with no blood i gave powerbelts up. I also shot at a 140 class buck one opener with the 290 pb and never found a drop and this was in a cut corn field. I searched his entry trail into a swamp 100 yds from where i shot (at) him and never found anything. I wonder to this day if i killed that deer after the no blood experience. I switched to the xtps and have not gone back. Always plenty of blood or dropping them at poi. Plus my gun likes them. One in groups at 100 yds.


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## bheary (Dec 29, 2010)

100 gr of Blackhorn would most likely punch through 2 car doors


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## 65650 (Aug 16, 2011)

protectionisamust said:


> I would recommend these if you shoot under 100 yards:
> 
> http://www.barnesbullets.com/muzzleloaders/expander-mz/
> 
> ...


I will check the first link out as most of my shots range from 10-70 yards max. Great info!

Also going to check the XTP's per several recommendations here from Bio and others.


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## 65650 (Aug 16, 2011)

So basically to sum everything up, shoulder shots are fine, and switch bullets.


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## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

Shoulder shot 240 grain xtp went about 20 feet


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## vincke07 (Feb 17, 2012)

protectionisamust said:


> I would recommend these if you shoot under 100 yards:
> 
> http://www.barnesbullets.com/muzzleloaders/expander-mz/
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this. I've noticed the TMZs I shoot can be a bear to seat. Haven't shot anything with them yet but I switched from TC shockwaves after hitting a buck quartering away at 45 yds through the ribcage and not getting a pass through. Never hit the opposite side shoulder either.

I shoot a TC Triumph with 150grs of pellets and 250 gr sabots.


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## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

crossneyes said:


> Shoulder shot 240 grain xtp went about 20 feet


Before anyone starts thinking I poached this deer,it was shot on crop damage permit


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Until this site I never heard of shoulder shots except for bears. I thought most people neck shot to avoid tracking.

I have hornady sabots, but haven't shot anything yet.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

The Hornady 240 XTP shouldn't be delivered fast or they will go to pot. With the charge most are shooting, they will work within reasonable distances.

The worst bullet choice by far is a pb bullet.

Want a bullet that performs all the time...... Barnes.


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## Jimbo 09 (Jan 28, 2013)

I know shoulder shots are lethal but it depends on the situation for me. Usually go for the lung or heart shot. As for bullets you will have to do your research. Hornady bullets worked great for me but then I switched to Barnes mz's after reading all the hype on here and I am on the fence about them. I have shot two deer with them out of my knight rev II with 100grains of t7. First shot was ~85yards double lung pass through but there was zero blood. Found the deer 50 yards away by grid searching. Second deer was ~70 yard shot perfectly broadside double lung but no pass through. Zero blood found. Grid searched in the direction the deer went and found it about 40 yards away. I recovered the bullet from this deer under the hide on the opposite ribcage and it never expanded properly and some of the peddles actually bent inwards. It killed both the deer but I was disappointed that there was no good blood trail to follow and they didn't expand like with the hornadys.


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## Pier Pressure (Dec 21, 2008)

ENCORE said:


> The Hornady 240 XTP shouldn't be delivered fast or they will go to pot. With the charge most are shooting, they will work within reasonable distances.
> 
> The worst bullet choice by far is a pb bullet.
> 
> Want a bullet that performs all the time...... Barnes.


Years ago I shot 250 & 300 XTPs. The 300s performed very well on deer but I never recovered one. Blood trails were tremendous. I recovered a few of the 250s and they suffered from core separation on a regular basis.

I've been shooting the Barnes TMZ 290 for maybe 8 years now and the results have been absolutely devastating. Close range, long range, heavy bone hits or rib cage hits doesn't seem to matter. I've always had perfect bullet performance and excellent blood trails.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Barnes Expanders shot using 120grs 2f










Barnes TMZ...........


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## dewy6068 (Jan 5, 2010)

ENCORE said:


> Barnes Expanders shot using 120grs 2f
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What kind of sabot is that yellow one? What grain TMZ would you recommend propelled by 2 T7 pellets from a 50 cal encore?


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## Pier Pressure (Dec 21, 2008)

Here's one more. This is a TMZ 290 pushed by 100 grains of 777 after smoking a doe at 105 yards. Found it just beneath the hide on the far side after it took out the lungs and nearly cut the heart in half...


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## WillHunt4Food (Sep 25, 2007)

ENCORE said:


> The Hornady 240 XTP shouldn't be delivered fast or they will go to pot. With the charge most are shooting, they will work within reasonable distances.
> 
> The worst bullet choice by far is a pb bullet.
> 
> Want a bullet that performs all the time...... Barnes.


This! Encore is all over this stuff. 

I switched from Shockwaves to Barnes Expanders and am not looking back. If you're shooting under 100 yards, Expanders are fantastic. Fly true and cause the damage you would expect a muzzleloader bullet to do. Anyone who is disappointed in their current bullet performance, do yourself a favor and shoot Barnes.


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

bioactive said:


> It is not a primitively season. It is a muzzleloader season.


Sorry, it's now a "modern" muzzleloader season w/black powder substitutes.


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## Steiny (May 30, 2011)

Powerbelt bullets are not inferior. They work fine, and I've killed a few deer with them. They also load real easy.

I do find the saboted Barnes bullets to be a bit more accurate, but the deer don't seem to care much about bullet type if you hit them where you need to. They're just as dead with Powerbelts as others.

I would avoid shoulder shots because you bust up all that bone and screw up meat.


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## pickle252 (Dec 24, 2013)

Not trying to hijack the thread, but whats the deal with powerbelts. I inherited a muzzy a few years ago, never had the ambition to learn to shoot it. I decided to finally get out there and learn. Came on this thread last year for advice. I have a .54 caliber T/C spent way too much money buying all the stuff I needed to get started ( including powerbelt ammo). I am sure they were recommended to me through this site. I did not have good groupings but I was new to muzzy and was only putting in 85-90 grains of loose powder. I was highly disappointed since I spent almost $30 for 20 bullets and they shot like crap. When I got home and looked at the package it said you have to shoot 95+ grains of powder to get the sabot to expand enough to catch the riffling. what bullets would you recommend? I liked the powerbelts because they went down the barrel smooth while loading. thanks in advance for any help


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

dewy6068 said:


> What kind of sabot is that yellow one? What grain TMZ would you recommend propelled by 2 T7 pellets from a 50 cal encore?


The TMZ in my photo is the 250gr and the sabot is the supplied sabot. Because the TMZ is a boattail bullet, the optional sabot for easier loading, if the supplied sabot loads to hard, is the Harvester Crushed Rib........ SPECIFIC TO THE BOATTAIL...... *H35045BYR*. This sabot will work with both the 250gr and 290gr TMZ bullets, as both are .451" bullets.
If one prefers a heavier bullet, then the 290gr TMZ. If the TMZ loads to hard, the flat base T-EZ in either 250 or 290grs and the supplied easier loading sabot is also an excellent choice.

You'd really be doing yourself a favor with that Encore, if you dumped the pellets and started using BH209, shooting 100 to 110grs by volume. Once you start shooting BH209, you'll be completely over shooting pellets. Read the entire site: www.blackhorn209.com

If you intend to remain shooting pellets, buy them new every year. Old pellets sometimes absorb moisture and also lose energy. Those two factors alone, can create a significant loss of velocity and bullet energy and that will affect the bullet's function upon impact. Any bullet.
ALWAYS keep pellets in the driest possible place away from any humidity. Buy and use new pellets every year if that's what you intend to shoot.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

pickle252 said:


> Not trying to hijack the thread, but whats the deal with powerbelts. I inherited a muzzy a few years ago, never had the ambition to learn to shoot it. I decided to finally get out there and learn. Came on this thread last year for advice. I have a .54 caliber T/C spent way too much money buying all the stuff I needed to get started ( including powerbelt ammo). I am sure they were recommended to me through this site. I did not have good groupings but I was new to muzzy and was only putting in 85-90 grains of loose powder. I was highly disappointed since I spent almost $30 for 20 bullets and they shot like crap. When I got home and looked at the package it said you have to shoot 95+ grains of powder to get the sabot to expand enough to catch the riffling. what bullets would you recommend? I liked the powerbelts because they went down the barrel smooth while loading. thanks in advance for any help


.54.......... what rifle?


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Vacuum packing helps extend pellet life. Another use for your Food Saver.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

crossneyes said:


> Shoulder shot 240 grain xtp went about 20 feet


That was a good shot "crossneyes" because it obviously killed the deer ... but it was not a 'brachial plexus" shot. The deer don't run anywhere - not even 20 feet when you hit them in the brachial plexus. The proper placement of the BP shot is vertically, directly up from the front legs and down only 4-5 inches from the top of the back. A deer hit there will literally pull up all 4 legs and drop on its chin - stone dead. If you can shoot accurately and have confidence in your shot at a standing deer ... and you don't mind damaging a lot of meat ... and you don't want your deer to run off before dying, then take this shot. If none of the above appeal to you or you lack the confidence, take the typical "boiler room" shot. Your deer will be just as dead, but you will just have to track it a ways.

I will try to post a link with a diagram here but if it fails, just Google "Brachial Plexus Shot - Diagram" and you should find some good examples.

The Best Shot On A Deer With A Rifle – The Shoulder Shot ...


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## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

wildthing said:


> That was a good shot "crossneyes" because it obviously killed the deer ... but it was not a 'brachial plexus" shot. The deer don't run anywhere - not even 20 feet when you hit them in the brachial plexus. The proper placement of the BP shot is vertically, directly up from the front legs and down only 4-5 inches from the top of the back. A deer hit there will literally pull up all 4 legs and drop on its chin - stone dead. If you can shoot accurately and have confidence in your shot at a standing deer ... and you don't mind damaging a lot of meat ... and you don't want your deer to run off before dying, then take this shot. If none of the above appeal to you or you lack the confidence, take the typical "boiler room" shot. Your deer will be just as dead, but you will just have to track it a ways.
> 
> I will try to post a link with a diagram here but if it fails, just Google "Brachial Plexus Shot - Diagram" and you should find some good examples.
> 
> The Best Shot On A Deer With A Rifle – The Shoulder Shot ...


No I realize that was not a b.p. Shot,but even a shoulder shot puts em down fairly quick as a rule.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

crossneyes said:


> No I realize that was not a b.p. Shot,but even a shoulder shot puts em down fairly quick as a rule.


Yep - Just posted my response for clarification for all - not just you. Thanks.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

I guess if one has to dump a whitetail on the spot, then the shoulder or between the ears will both do it. Fortunately I don't have that situation. I don't especially like lung shots myself, unless forced to take that shot. Not that it won't harvest, its just that a high hit may leave less of a blood trail as more blood is shed internally. My preferred POI is the heart or heart top. Yes the whitetail may run but, its generally a pass thru and with an entrance and exit, the pump station quits rather quickly, leaving an easily followed blood trail.


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

I prefer the Heart lung shot for the reason of less meat loss.I use a 300gr .458 Hornady hollow point.The same one that I load in my 45-70.If that bullet hits any large bones the damage is massive.Like being able to put your fist into the wound.I shot a doe once that was facing me eating with her head down.Put the bullet exact center where the neck and shoulders met.When I skinned her out you could literally put your fist threw the hole and into the chest cavity.So I would rather loose a little meat off the ribs than a shoulder or two.


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

In my opinion shoulder shot is not the premium choice for shot placement regardless of equipment , behind the shoulder middle height to just below middle height on the deer...


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

mkriep2006 said:


> In my opinion shoulder shot is not the premium choice for shot placement regardless of equipment , behind the shoulder middle height to just below middle height on the deer...


Probably more deer killed with that shot than all others combined, mkriep.


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## pickle252 (Dec 24, 2013)

ENCORE said:


> .54.......... what rifle?


Thompson thunderhawk or firehawk. Dont remember which right off hand


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## Budulater (Sep 22, 2009)

mkriep2006 said:


> In my opinion shoulder shot is not the premium choice for shot placement regardless of equipment , behind the shoulder middle height to just below middle height on the deer...


Has worked for me for years using hornady 300 grain xtp.Can't show you any mushroomed bullets.Always get two holes.Never lost a deer.And they don't go far if they go at all.Its not broke,no need to fix it.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

pickle252 said:


> Thompson thunderhawk or firehawk. Dont remember which right off hand


I used to shoot a .54 and used the Barnes 325gr Expander bullet. Actually in the photos I posted, the top photo of the twin Expanders were that bullet using 2f.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Budulater said:


> Has worked for me for years using hornady 300 grain xtp.Can't show you any mushroomed bullets.Always get two holes.Never lost a deer.And they don't go far if they go at all.Its not broke,no need to fix it.


I'll help you out......


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## Budulater (Sep 22, 2009)

Its all fine and dandy,but this is why I like the XTP.On Monday a doe couldn't take the 2 lung pass through.This picture was taken today to show the blood these XTPs can leave.Still alot of blood showing up.Very rare do I have a problem with finding Blood.Mushrooms are nice to find,but I like big blood.LOL.This is ALL just my opinion.


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## 65650 (Aug 16, 2011)

Well I got the ML all sighted in tonight with the XTP's, 2-3" grouping, couldn't be happier.

Now I just need to put one through a shoulder to complete this thread.

Thanks for all the input guys!


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## protectionisamust (Nov 9, 2010)

bowhunter1053 said:


> Well I got the ML all sighted in tonight with the XTP's, 2-3" grouping, couldn't be happier.
> 
> Now I just need to put one through a shoulder to complete this thread.
> 
> Thanks for all the input guys!


sweet. Good luck and post pics!!


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

wildthing said:


> Probably more deer killed with that shot than all others combined, mkriep.


Shoulder shot or behind the shoulder????

Most deer I track and do not recover are shoulder shot deer , and I track more deer in a year then most track in a lifetime, granted a majority of these are archery shot. However let's look at deer anatomy 
Where is the larger vital target in the shoulder or behind it? Also consider a shrinking vital target in the shoulder if the deer is quartering away


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

mkriep2006 said:


> Shoulder shot or behind the shoulder????
> 
> Most deer I track and do not recover are shoulder shot deer , and I track more deer in a year then most track in a lifetime, granted a majority of these are archery shot. However let's look at deer anatomy
> Where is the larger vital target in the shoulder or behind it? Also consider a shrinking vital target in the shoulder if the deer is quartering away
> View attachment 198980


I aim right for the "L" for lungs everytime..........


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## Okie Hog (Nov 10, 2011)

"I use a good old-fashioned round ball."

i started hunting with patched round balls in 2012 when Ft. Sill, OK changed the rules for the first week of deer muzzleloader season. Conventional guns only are allowed: No scopes, no sabots and no fire sights . 

My round ball guns are .50 and .54 TC New Englanders and a scoped .54 TC FireHawk. Now i hunt much of OK deer gun season with patched round ball. i've killed about 20 deer with patched round balls. 

My shots are limited to a maximum of 75 yards when using iron sighted guns. i take shots to 100 yards with the scope sighted .54 FireHawk. 

Many of the deer i shoot with patched round ball bang flop. Very few have gone more than 40 yards. None have gotten away wounded. 

It is true that the deer here are much smaller that the big MI deer. i have also killed numerous big hogs with patched round balls. Shot placement can be more critical with hogs, especially big hogs. No hog got away wounded. 

Have tracked many wounded deer and elk for other hunters. The story usually begins with a variation of: "i double lunged that animal and he took off". Very few hunters here will fess up to a gut shot. The vast majority of animals i recovered were gut shot with center fire rifles. Most had pass throughs. 

i don't shoot deer in the shoulders.


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## bradb460 (Nov 15, 2012)

Just an FYI tc shockwave= hornady sst with different color tip.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

bradb460 said:


> Just an FYI tc shockwave= hornady sst with different color tip.


I have always suspected that Hornady manufactured the T/C Shockwave but I'm not convinced that the Hornady SST is the same as the yellow tip Shockwave. I do very much think that it is the same as the blue tip T/C Bonded Core Shockwave. Don't know for sure either way but they sure look a lot alike except for the polymer tip color.


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## friedperch (Jan 8, 2015)

November Sunrise said:


> With an inferior bullet like Powerbelt's it's not all about shot placement. Personal experience with deer kills is the poorest way to assess the effectiveness of a bullet.
> 
> The fact is Powerbelts have a clearly established tendency to not perform well as compared to a quality bullet. Shoot 100 deer with Powerbelts as compared to a quality bullet, and the odds are much higher that the Powerbelt is going to cost you some deer due to their poor performance.


A 250 grain piece of copper coated lead will kill a deer the same way a 250 grain copper coated piece of lead will. If a broadside shot isn't possible I don't shoot, period. So no I won't loose a wounded deer. Maby I'm a better shot than others. Too bad PBs don't work for ya,ll.
Bio, lighten up on the criticism.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

friedperch said:


> A 250 grain piece of copper coated lead will kill a deer the same way a 250 grain copper coated piece of lead will. If a broadside shot isn't possible I don't shoot, period. So no I won't loose a wounded deer. *Maby I'm a better shot than others*. Too bad PBs don't work for ya,ll.
> Bio, lighten up on the criticism.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Somebody's baby got called ugly.


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## dewy6068 (Jan 5, 2010)

I typically try to wait for a nice broadside shot, but I didn't this morning on this doe because they were very spooked and only seconds before I shot the closer deer saw me and took off running. This doe was only 24 yds away quartered hard towards me when I shot her. The 250 gr Shockwave (yellow tip) went in right at the tip of the left shoulder and exited just behind the shoulder on opposite side. Broke the front shoulder on entry side. Deer went 20 yds and fell over dead. I shot her with a 50 cal Encore using 2 777 pellets and the yellow tip 250 gr shockwave bullet.

























The blood trail was impressive. What you see in the first pic is how the blood trail was the whole trail!


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## Martian (Apr 28, 2011)

friedperch said:


> So my experience Does Not Count?


your opinion counts as much as his opinion


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## rlr (Mar 16, 2013)

Martian said:


> your opinion counts as much as his opinion


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## friedperch (Jan 8, 2015)

I got these now. Will they work like other Hornadys?


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## rlr (Mar 16, 2013)

For anyone interested, I switched from the 250 shockwave to the 250 Hornady GMX. It shot exactly the same POI out my Encore with 100 grs. of BH 209. In my opinion, far better terminal performance than the shockwave.


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## rlr (Mar 16, 2013)

Yeah that, lol.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Martian said:


> your opinion counts as much as his opinion


Product fanboys are always threatened by the idea that what they've been using isn't the "best." They invariably point to their handful of personal experiences as "proof" that they made the right product choice. 

Doesn't matter whether it's bullets, broadheads, or whatever - one can either deal with objective reality of what's superior in terms of performance or they can play the game of pretending that all products are equivalent in performance.

One would be hard pressed to find a bullet that is less reliable than Powerbelt's. They have a number of issues, starting with a tendency to fragment into hundreds of pieces, in some cases previous to even penetrating the animal. The person who relies on "well that's never happened to me" is simply exhibiting a lack of critical thinking skills.


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## friedperch (Jan 8, 2015)

What about the bullets I have now?


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## Pier Pressure (Dec 21, 2008)

friedperch said:


> What about the bullets I have now?


No experience with them but they look good to me. Try 'em out and let us know.


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## rlr (Mar 16, 2013)

friedperch said:


> I got these now. Will they work like other Hornadys?


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## rlr (Mar 16, 2013)

This is the GMX bullet. I believe its about 95% copper.


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## peteinvermont (Jan 24, 2014)

I've only shot about 10 deer with a muzzleloader and eight of them were with a ball. so my experience is not deep - but I shot a doe last week, high lung, with a T/C XR Sabot and it was devastating damage. My son shot a doe a couple days later, high lung, with a T/C Shockwave, and did not get a pass through. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GoinFishin (Mar 9, 2006)

My last deer was shot at 105yds, perfect broadside. I stopped her with a short bleat and she crouched down when she turned her head to look at me. I intended to put the shot thru the bottom of the L in Lungs as a previous poster mentioned ...

The hit was 6" below the top of the back and directly above the back edge of the front shoulders due to her crouched position. In the next 30-40 seconds, we watched as she ran 200+yds spraying blood from both sides. Easy to track even if we hadn't seen her go down, but this is far from 4 stiff legs and dead on the spot. 

Just a warning ... if you shoot for the high BP shot and everything doesn't line up just right, they could run like mad! The good news is you'll probably pass right thru as there's not much in the way just below the spine and between the ribs.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

These photos depict a "Quartering to me - Brachial Plexus" shot on the deer I killed last Friday (12/11/15). He was downhill a little over 100 yards away and quartering to me. It was almost dark, threatening rain and he was on the edge of a "dirty swamp". I did not want to track him but I didn't have the classic broadside shot for a good Brachial Plexus shot so I shot him just inside the scapula (high shoulder blade). The bullet passed behind the scapula and directly into the rib cage behind into what would have been the center of the scapula on a broadside shot. The bullet quartered through the rib cage and center punched a rib on the far side. Ironically, the copper jacket of the bullet stayed inside the hide but the lead core passed through the hide - never seen that one before.

At any rate, this deer was stone dead before he hit the ground. He literally dropped in his tracks as they do on a normal, broadside BP shot. When the smoke cleared I saw one hind leg "twitch" for maybe 1 - 1.5 seconds. That was it - he was stone dead. No tracking necessary, and the beautiful thing about this shot is that there was zero damage to the meat, unlike a broadside BP shot where at least one shoulder would have been too severely traumatized to salvage.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

These are pics of the 3 bullets which we discussed earlier in this thread and their similarities:

L - T/C Contolled expansion Shockwave (Yellow Tip) - 50 cal - 250 grain.

C - T/C Bonded Core Shockwave (Blue Tip) - 50 cal -250 grain.

R - Hornady SST (Red Tip) - 50 cal - 250 grain

I'm almost certain that Hornady produces these bullets for T/C. And ... I believe that the Bonded Core T/C and the Hornady SST are very likely the same bullet. The Yellow Tip - Controlled expansion T/C did not perform well in Russell Lynch's ballistic gel testing, but the other two retained almost all of their original weight.

My wife uses the T/C's and I use the Hornady's. We both use the Harvester Crushed Rib sabots.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)




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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

ENCORE said:


>


I give ... what are those on the left, Encore?


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

wildthing said:


> I give ... what are those on the left, Encore?


300gr. Whitetail Medicine, made by Hornady for Ultimate Firearms Inc. Hornady has numerous contracts to build bullets, including the Shockwaves.

I shoot the 300gr WM from my Ultimate.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

ENCORE said:


> 300gr. Whitetail Medicine, made by Hornady for Ultimate Firearms Inc. Hornady has numerous contracts to build bullets, including the Shockwaves.
> 
> I shoot the 300gr WM from my Ultimate.


I don't know anything about them, but at a minimum I'd have to say that "Whitetail Medicine" is about as good as it gets in terms of a bullet name. Just got a certain ring to it.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

ENCORE said:


> 300gr. Whitetail Medicine, made by Hornady for Ultimate Firearms Inc. Hornady has numerous contracts to build bullets, including the Shockwaves.
> 
> I shoot the 300gr WM from my Ultimate.


I thought those looked like 300 grain SST's. I've got a box or two of those too but the 250 grain SST's group just a little tighter in my Pro Hunter. I may have to play around with different charges in those this summer.

I liked the expansion and perfect mushrooms on those Barnes Expanders you pictured a page or two back. I may have to play around with those a little too. I was surprised to see the core come out of the jacket on the SST on my deer the other day. Can't argue with the results - the deer never knew what hit him ... but, I do like to see the bullet hold together.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> I don't know anything about them, but at a minimum I'd have to say that "Whitetail Medicine" is about as good as it gets in terms of a bullet name. Just got a certain ring to it.


I like that name to NS. I don't think it gets any better than that


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

wildthing said:


> I thought those looked like 300 grain SST's. I've got a box or two of those too but the 250 grain SST's group just a little tighter in my Pro Hunter. I may have to play around with different charges in those this summer.
> 
> I liked the expansion and perfect mushrooms on those Barnes Expanders you pictured a page or two back. I may have to play around with those a little too. I was surprised to see the core come out of the jacket on the SST on my deer the other day. Can't argue with the results - the deer never knew what hit him ... but, I do like to see the bullet hold together.


BARNES.............


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## CaptainNorthwood (Jan 3, 2006)

Encore.......I thought you were shooting the Barnes?


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

CaptainNorthwood said:


> Encore.......I thought you were shooting the Barnes?


Spent the entire summer last year attempting to. Could not get them to group. Harvester and MMP sent me everything they made and couldn't get them to group to my satisfaction. Breaks my old heart too.......


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## IceHog (Nov 23, 2007)

Midalake said:


> I know I will get flamed.....but I do not have a shot past 85yds. I use a good old-fashioned round ball. I have never lost a deer. However I did harvest an 8pt last Saturday and there was only 5 drops of blood on a solid liver shot with no exit wound. Could not find the deer till later on Sunday. It was my max shot distance at 85yds.
> For accuracy there is no issue the load is spot on, however I am thinking of changing to create that exit wound......this is not the first time I had no exit wound.
> 
> I also recovered the lead, and like others it is one BIG mushroom, that makes a big hole.............


Did you head to the lower for a hunt :mischeif:


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

IceHog said:


> Did you head to the lower for a hunt :mischeif:


No it was shot here. It still is the only shooter I put on camera all year. I have to get a few more chips in a week.


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## IceHog (Nov 23, 2007)

Midalake said:


> No it was shot here. It still is the only shooter I put on camera all year. I have to get a few more chips in a week.


Congratulations, I know things are tough where you're at.


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

IceHog said:


> Congratulations, I know things are tough where you're at.


Thanks, yes very tough. Lots of emotions. Still not sure if I should be happy or sad with the conditions we have.


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## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Well, took a shoulder shot tonight at 20-25 yards. Deer was quartering towards me. Should of went through the right shoulder and took out lungs/heart. I Was pretty confident in the shot. When I went to look for blood I had nothing. Back out and came back 4 hours later. Couldn't find any sign of anything; no hair, nothing. Hope the yotes don't get her tonight. Grid searching the property in the AM. Hopefully I find some sort of sign of impact. Bumming out right now after the first trigger pull of the year.


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## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

stelmon said:


> Well, took a shoulder shot tonight at 20-25 yards. Deer was quartering towards me. Should of went through the right shoulder and took out lungs/heart. I Was pretty confident in the shot. When I went to look for blood I had nothing. Back out and came back 4 hours later. Couldn't find any sign of anything; no hair, nothing. Hope the yotes don't get her tonight. Grid searching the property in the AM. Hopefully I find some sort of sign of impact. Bumming out right now after the first trigger pull of the year.


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## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Hornaday sst fail


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

stelmon said:


> Hornaday sst fail


Not sure what you mean by "Hornady SST fail", Stelmon. Is there a story behind it??


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## dewy6068 (Jan 5, 2010)

stelmon said:


> Hornaday sst fail


So that bullet went through a deer and you found it lodged in the deer somewhere just like that? 

Can you give us the details of the gun, powder, and the story behind what the bullet went through and where you found it?

Congrats on the deer!


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

stelmon said:


> Hornaday sst fail


Junk


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

DEDGOOSE said:


> Junk


Care to elaborate on that DEDGOOSE?? Can you tell us about your bad experience with them? Perhaps you can tell us what you are currently using? Maybe a photo or two of your best 100 yard groups? How about a perfectly mushroomed bullet that retained 100% of its weight after retrieving it from your deer? A little more information would help us in determining just how much credit we can give to your opinion.

Thanking you in advance...


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

wildthing said:


> Care to elaborate on that DEDGOOSE?? Can you tell us about your bad experience with them? Perhaps you can tell us what you are currently using? Maybe a photo or two of your best 100 yard groups? How about a perfectly mushroomed bullet that retained 100% of its weight after retrieving it from your deer? A little more information would help us in determining just how much credit we can give to your opinion.
> 
> Thanking you in advance...


My experience with Shockwaves and SSTs is well documented throughout the muzzleloading forum. 

Here is the supplied pic that you wanted. This is a 250 g Barnes T-EZ from a friends deer. Sorry in advance I could not produce a picture with a 100% retention but I think 99.88% should work. 



In comparison here is a recovered SST or Shockwave, I have another somewhere that looks identical. 24.5% weight retention. 


In addition to my experiences in the past I was fortunate to guide in KS this fall. We have an early Sept Muzzy season. In the two weeks we had 12 hunters in camp. Of the 12 hunters 9 were shooting SST/Shockwaves, 1 XTPs and two had Rem Ultimate and the bullets they recommended. Every deer which was 5-6 shot with a SST/Shockwave produced zero blood, absolutely not a speck. Not all of the deer went terribly far but at night we were fortunate to have a Bavarian Mountain Scent Hound which helped eliminate the need for a grid search. Even while following said dog down the deers path knowing he was on the trail, absolutely not a speck.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

DEDGOOSE said:


> My experience with Shockwaves and SSTs is well documented throughout the muzzleloading forum.
> 
> Here is the supplied pic that you wanted. This is a 250 g Barnes T-EZ from a friends deer. Sorry in advance I could not produce a picture with a 100% retention but I think 99.88% should work.
> 
> ...


That's better Dedgoose! Now we can actually give some weight to your opinion. It just so happens I have some of those T-EZ's on hand. I will have to give them a try. Do you use the supplied sabot with them or do you change up with an MMP or Harvester?


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

wildthing said:


> That's better Dedgoose! Now we can actually give some weight to your opinion. It just so happens I have some of those T-EZ's on hand. I will have to give them a try. Do you use the supplied sabot with them or do you change up with an MMP or Harvester?


I have been fortunate to produce good accuracy with the blue supplied sabot out of multiple guns.

I guess I am from the school give me an entrance and an exit which increases your chances for a followable blood trail. A bullet that retains more weight increases the chances of this, and Barnes are reliable in providing this.

I understand some guys prefer the whole shock and drop designs, which is fantastic when it happens. But even a deer that goes 150 in thick cover with no blood can make for a sleepless nights and a miserable grid search.

Guiding re emphasised this. Guys would text "smoked one" go meet them to find no evidence and they begin doubting what happened. As a guide it puts you in a horrible position and we were fortunate to have the hound.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

DEDGOOSE said:


> I have been fortunate to produce good accuracy with the blue supplied sabot out of multiple guns.
> 
> I guess I am from the school give me an entrance and an exit which increases your chances for a followable blood trail. A bullet that retains more weight increases the chances of this, and Barnes are reliable in providing this.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply DEDGOOSE. I haven't dug those Barnes T-EZ's out of storage yet but I'm pretty certain that I tried them out a while back - maybe in a different rifle. I haven't really given them a fair chance yet, either because they didn't particularly group well, or maybe they were very hard loading - I just can't recall right now. I really like the solid construction of the bullet and I know ENCORE posted similar looking photos of Barnes bullets which has piqued my interest in them. 

My wife and I have both killed bucks with the Shockwave and SST's in the past 2 or 3 years and we have also killed a few does with them. The two bucks (a 5 year old and a 3 year old) both dropped in their tracks with "shock and drop" shots so there was no tracking involved. At least one doe that I shot ran about 40-50 yards when I shot her but she ran right towards me and dropped about 10 yards away so there was no tracking there either. Having said that, I agree that you can't always count on that type of shot and that is where my concern comes in with the integrity of the SW's and SST's. While we have had zero trouble finding the deer we shot with them, I only found fragments of my wife's SW in her buck and all that I found from mine was the copper jacket as the lead core continued on through the deer.

I am looking forward to working up a load with the Barnes bullet (when it warms up some ) and will give them an honest try if I can get them to shoot straight. One thing I like about the SW's and SST's is that they have proven to be very accurate in both rifles we are currently shooting them out of.

I respect your opinion - especially coming from a guiding background. After having so many guests come up and hunt our property I sometimes feel like I am guiding on my own property. I also owned and operated a full time charter fishing business on Lake Michigan for 10 years so I know a little about where you are coming from when it comes to guide/client relationships.

Thanks again for your insight.


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## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

55 yd shot. Dropped where she stood 240 gr xtp 110 grains of pyrodex. High shoulder entrance, the wound in pic is the exit. Taken 5.15 today.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

wildthing said:


> T ... and you don't mind damaging a lot of meat ... and you don't want your deer to run off before dying, then take this shot. If none of the above appeal to you or yo.


I hunt for the meat.

Maybe in my backyard, since I only have a few acres. But not in the woods.


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