# Muzzleloaders Good and Bad?



## Sled Solutions (Nov 19, 2004)

I don't muzzleload but want to start this year. I've been looking at all the options and was looking for some opinions from guys that have used specific brands before.

CVA
Knight
Thompson
Remington

The CVA muzzleloaders seem to be the cheapest....is there a reason for this.
I don't want to spend a ton of money since I will only use it once a year but also don't want a pile. 

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.


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## BarryPatch (Jul 21, 2004)

I just bought a TC Encore. It's at the top end of the price range but should give me a longer shot than some of the cheaper guns. It also takes other shotgun and rifle barrels so I'll be using the gun for several different seasons.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Yes there is a reason for this. CVA's don't have the fit or finish nor the quality materials that some others have. That said, they tend to shoot well. I wouldn't want to shoot fullhouse 150 gra charges in them either, the quality of the steel is suspect.

Remington no longer makes the 700. Newer designs have over taken the bolt action craze, but there's a goo chance you can still find them new on the racks....and possibly heavily discounted. I have a 700 and really like it. Very accurate, best trigger I have seen on a muzzleloader (next to the accutrigger). I also have a TC Encore that is in the break in process...so far I'm very, very impressed.
TC and Kinght are both high quality guns, hard to go wrong with either. Personaly I'm not a big fan of the two newest designs from knight. The Revolution plays second fiddle to the Omega in looks, design and handling, and Knights new break action model is not near the quality and innovation I would expect from Knight. But man, they are accurate. 

For value, you can get the TC Omega for around $300, thats a lot of gun for the money, but I would suggest going stainless in any rifle you buy. Beware, some of the CVA's and Traditions are really just Nickle...not the same as true stainless. There are some deals out there on the Knight Elite rifles as well, imo the best handling rifle Knight has built. Some are selling for well under $300 and they are typical Knight accurate.


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## Sled Solutions (Nov 19, 2004)

Swamp Monster said:


> Yes there is a reason for this. CVA's don't have the fit or finish nor the quality materials that some others have. That said, they tend to shoot well. I wouldn't want to shoot fullhouse 150 gra charges in them either, the quality of the steel is suspect.
> 
> Remington no longer makes the 700. Newer designs have over taken the bolt action craze, but there's a goo chance you can still find them new on the racks....and possibly heavily discounted. I have a 700 and really like it. Very accurate, best trigger I have seen on a muzzleloader (next to the accutrigger). I also have a TC Encore that is in the break in process...so far I'm very, very impressed.
> TC and Kinght are both high quality guns, hard to go wrong with either. Personaly I'm not a big fan of the two newest designs from knight. The Revolution plays second fiddle to the Omega in looks, design and handling, and Knights new break action model is not near the quality and innovation I would expect from Knight. But man, they are accurate.
> ...


What is the biggest difference between the TC Omega and the Remington 700 (if I could find one)?


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## Sib (Jan 8, 2003)

Yes there is a reason for CVA being cheaper, they're imported from Spain. Knight and TC are American made, I suspect the Rem. is too, but I don't know. Some of the best prices I've seen come from these folks http://www.natchezss.com/ I've bought from them and they are good folks.


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## Due51 (Oct 26, 2005)

There's a lot of posts on here about this subject. I just went through this about 10 days ago. Search Muzzleloader and I think you'll find what you're looking for.

Someone on this site mentioned NEF (New England Firearm). Apparently inexpensive but good.

The Thompson Center is probably top end and like someone stated, you can change barrels to make it a shotgun or rifle. That's 3 guns in one. Not bad. And they're light. Compared to the CVA 209 Magnum or Optima Pro. That Optima Pro weighed a boat load.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Very different! Only thing similar is that they both load from the muzzle!
The 700 is a bolt action...look at a Remington 700 rifle and ad a ramrod and you have it. Barrel is 22" or 24" depending on the model you buy.

The TC is a sort of a falling block action. It has a much longer barrel 28" because the actual action is very short. It's a sealed action which is nice in foul weather. The TC will produce a bit more velocity due to barrel length, but that will depend on the load. The TC, due to design is muc heasier to clean...the Remington is not difficult, it's just a longer process.

Best thing to do is go the TC website ad check them out. Not sure, but Remington may still show the 700 on their website as well.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Sib said:


> Yes there is a reason for CVA being cheaper, they're imported from Spain. Knight and TC are American made, I suspect the Rem. is too, but I don't know. Some of the best prices I've seen come from these folks http://www.natchezss.com/ I've bought from them and they are good folks.


Yep, and so is the 700.
Natchez is top notch, I order from them quit a bit and have not been dissapointed. And their prices are difficult to match, let alone beat. Call them and have them send you a catalog and their sales flyers. Their web site is not that good really, but considering their prices, I can deal with it!

Yes, the NEF is nice as well. I purchased one for my step father a few years back. Construction is good and so is accuracy. At $150 it's a great deal imo, and I would buy that before a CVA or Traditions in that price range.


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## Sled Solutions (Nov 19, 2004)

Swamp Monster said:


> Very different! Only thing similar is that they both load from the muzzle!
> The 700 is a bolt action...look at a Remington 700 rifle and ad a ramrod and you have it. Barrel is 22" or 24" depending on the model you buy.
> 
> The TC is a sort of a falling block action. It has a much longer barrel 28" because the actual action is very short. It's a sealed action which is nice in foul weather. The TC will produce a bit more velocity due to barrel length, but that will depend on the load. The TC, due to design is muc heasier to clean...the Remington is not difficult, it's just a longer process.
> ...


Thanks, I was looking at TC website but Remingtons is down so I can't check there. Sounds like the TC is the way to go here. 

Thanks again!


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## yooperkenny (Jul 13, 2004)

I've hunted with an entry level CVA (a Plainshunter I built from a kit) for several years now and this gun shoots STRAIGHT! I've taken several deer in the deep UP snow with it. At some point I'll probably upgrade to a more sophisticated one with 209 cap and/or inline, but hunting with my current smokepole is a lot of fun.

I would recommend the CVA to anyone wanting to try muzzloading and not wanting to spend a fortune doing so.


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## msb (Apr 25, 2005)

Swamp Monster said:


> Yes, the NEF is nice as well. I purchased one for my step father a few years back. Construction is good and so is accuracy. At $150 it's a great deal imo, and I would buy that before a CVA or Traditions in that price range.


I own a few smokepoles and I think for the money a NEF sidekick is a good rifle. 209 primer ignition, decent sights, the breech comes out (little bit of a pain) for easy cleaning and it does take the 150 gr charges. $160. OTD without scope/ $230. with. Stainless is more.
The only thing I would suggest for someone who is buying is getting another flexiable fiberglass ram rod for at the range and cleaning. The factory ramrod is ok for hunting but not very durable IMO.
Good luck


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## Masterblaster1 (Sep 28, 2004)

I have a Winchester Apex in .50 cal. Very nice gun, got the full camo version and added a bushnell scope. Very accurate with 295 grain powerbelts although i am considering switching projectiles(powerbelts break up more than i like) Anyways they have a very good monte carlo style stock, crisp trigger, factory sites are fiber optic and very usable, comes with a quake claw sling, VERY VERY simple to clean. It uses a swing action and only 2 screws hold the gun to the stock. Very easy to load, it uses a projectile guiding system, in other words you can start a bullet with your finger if you like. Heck, If a 19 year old kid like me can do it you can too. Also it is boatloads more accurate than any slug gun i've fired and definitaly has more range.


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## tonyvan (Oct 4, 2002)

I have a traditions buck hunter model bought several years ago and like it a lot. I think they are moderately priced.

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/index.asp


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

I have a 54 caliber TC sidelock that I have shot for years and have taken several deer with it. Not one ounce of problem. Last year I purchased a CVA Kodiak Magnum in camo pattern, put a 3X9 scope on it. Dead on at a 100 yards with Powerbelt 295gr bullets. A joy to shoot and a joy to clean compared to the TC sidelock. In the CVA I have shot both 150 grains of powder and 100 grains, have settled with 2 50gr. pellets of pyrodex and 295 gr. powerbelts. Deadly on the range and deadly on deer. Shot a deer last year at 55 yards right behind the shoulder, double lung, deer took 3 steps and hit the deck, complete pass thru. 

I would not hesitate to buy another CVA Kodiak Magnum and highly recommend them. Not as expensive as others but more than most.


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## FixedBlade (Oct 14, 2002)

I have the CVA Optima magnum synthetic, break action w/209 primer ignition. I put a scope on it to. It is a great gun don't let these folks fool ya on the quality. I have shot 4 deer with it in 2 years. I just love it. I'm sure I would like the thompsons too. There is no reason to spend that kind of cash thou. Get the CVA Optima. You'll be glad you did.


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## rauchj (Oct 6, 2005)

I have one of the .50 caliber Knight disc rifles. I have had it for about the past five years and have taken multiple deer with it. I personally think that Knight and TC are your best bet. Either one of the brands with a good quality scope on top of it will be your best bet. Also, if you go with Knight think about trying out one of the ones with a thumbhole stock. I think it makes a big difference.

Good luck hunting!!


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

FixedBlade said:


> . It is a great gun don't let these folks fool ya on the quality. I have shot 4 deer with it in 2 years.


Nobody's fooling anybody, one look at the materials is all that is needed. Now, like I said before, they are accurate and in the end that is all that matters, but to say they are the same quality as the more expenive TC, is simply untrue. The CVA quality is enough to get the job done, but considering the quality of the steel they use, you wouldn't catch me snuggling up behind that stock and pulling the trigger with a full 150gr powder charge.


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## unclecbass (Sep 29, 2005)

I just started black powder hunting last year. Bought a Knight rifle from Gander, came in a kit with sabbots, loaders and cleaning jag. I love it, super accurate for black powder, I cant wait to hunt with it this year, I was truely impressed and would reccomend it to any beginner looking for an inexpensive, yet dependable rifle.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2005)

SwampMonster - Do you have any links to incidents arrising out of the Spanish steel failing in CVA and other Spanish made rifles like the Winchester APEX? Yes, there are more tool marks and the fit is spartan, but they do shoot just like you said. Never heard of one going KABOOM though, and am curious. 

My go to gun is an Encore .50 caliber from the second year of production. It's a fickle beauty. 

I picked up a .NIB 50 Caliber Hawken copy by CVA one Christmas season at Gander Mountain for a no-**** out the door price of $35. It throws patched lead round balls into 2" inches at 85 yards all day with garbage sights. And it ain't *that* ugly...


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## Buck Rogers (Nov 7, 2004)

Thompson Center all the way. The materials are much better than CVA. I have 2 of them Omega and New Englander. Both are great guns. I don't believe they make the New Englander any more. I owned a CVA Apollo and it was Junk. The springs to pop the caps were so weak that the gun would only fire one out of three times. Not good when your looking down the barrel at a nice buck. I do think the CVA's have improved over the years but the quality still isn't close to TC. Just my opinion (from a person that has owned both makes).


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## fulldraw (Nov 20, 2002)

I like the traditional muzzle loaders, 54 cal. Hawken, or a thompson center 50 cal.. If I had to choose a modern inline muzzle loader it would probley be the thompson center encore mostly because of the interchangable barrels. 

fulldraw


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

I've owned Knight, Ultimate, TC and CVA and can honestly say that I like the TCs the best although I have a heartfelt love my my Knight MK-85 and Disc because i have smacked so many critters with them.

I've used the Ultimate since it was a prototype but I got tired of lugging the brute everywhere I went. On a whim I got a TC Omega with a Zeiss 10X40 and thats my main gun I absolutly love it. You don't have to spend the big buck for accuracy though I've seen many Wal=Mart CVA's shoot better than the $2000 ultimate.


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## Jacob Huffman (Sep 13, 2004)

I'm not into it as much as some.My thought pattern is this...If you are only going to use it during the muzzleloader season(this was before this year) why spend hundreds of dollars for something you might only use a couple of times during the season...(my time schedule)..But with that said I own a CVA and it shoots great,I dont want to spend the extra hundreds for the top of the line,I have a shotgun for regular season as well as a rifle,I dont need anything extravagent..Some have mentioned the TC Encore it is probably by far the top end..without spending over a $1000,which I have seen some special order muzzleloaders cost...But with the Encore you can, get this, 86 different barrells for it..muzzleloader to a 22 hornet up to .416...that's just crazy ... :yikes: ..I would think about it this way...haw often are you going to use it,time spent in the woods each year with it then base your shopping from there..


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Alpha,
No I have not seen any CVA's blow up personaly. I've heard of it happening though and I've seen some pics in other forums showing damage, but not out right blow ups where the gun ends up in two pieces. And considering some of it is from internet forums, I take it with a grain of salt because its hard to say if it was not operator error. (I'm willing to bet more times than not, the operator is at fault) And maybe today, CVA/Winchester and Traditions are pressure testing their barrels to higher pressures like TC and Knight. I know Winchester had lots of problems with the X-150 bolt they opriginaly offered, well labled anyway, we know Winchester does not make them. The Apex is just a CVA Kodiak. I know one person with an apex in .45 and it shoots pretty good, but the gun just does not have the quality feel that TC or Knight has. There is no way around cutting corners when the manufacturer is trying to meet a lower selling price. I really like the NEF's, they are a good value, but the materials and fit and finish is not that of a $400-$500 gun. In NEF's case, they have a pretty simple manufacturing process that hasn't changed in decades so they can afford to sell those guns at a rock bottom price.

The Newer CVA's like the optima etc are decent guns, no doubt and probably a decent value for the price, but you can get the TC or a Knight for almost the same money. I've seen those optima pro's selling for close to $400 so they aren't exactly cheap.


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## Sled Solutions (Nov 19, 2004)

Thanks gentlmen all very good information. With all that said I've determined that I don't want to shoot the snap caps. I was told the shoot gun primer is the way to go. What does that do for my selection??


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

You would be hard pressed to find an inline gun today that _doesn't _ use 209 shotgun primers. Some of the older models that are still available still use a #10 cap, but most offer an upgrade kit to 209 if you want to....some work better than others due to design. My Rem 700 is set up to use #10 or musket caps which are a littel hotter than #10's, never had a misfire, I still use the musket caps. Rem makes a conversion to 209, but it is not really a good set up in that gun to be honest, way to much blowback.


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## Sled Solutions (Nov 19, 2004)

Swamp Monster said:


> You would be hard pressed to find an inline gun today that _doesn't _ use 209 shotgun primers. Some of the older models that are still available still use a #10 cap, but most offer an upgrade kit to 209 if you want to....some work better than others due to design. My Rem 700 is set up to use #10 or musket caps which are a littel hotter than #10's, never had a misfire, I still use the musket caps. Rem makes a conversion to 209, but it is not really a good set up in that gun to be honest, way to much blowback.


That's what I figured, the advice came from someone who has a older muzzleloader so I wasn't sure if it still was common amoungst new muzzleloaders.

Thanks


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## Sib (Jan 8, 2003)

You want to shoot 209 shotgun primers and all the makes you mention are available with the 209 ignition. The more traditional sidelocks most likely will not offer you the 209 ignition choice, so your probably looking at a modern inline for your weapon.

On a side note I just got the Nov. Natchez catalog last night.  I guess timing is everything. :lol: Anyway, of the three makes you mentioned all had some sales going on. The best value, imo, on each make are these (I'm going to give you the best buy from each make, because this is a personal decision and I don't want to get into any type of bash fest, besides, I have one gun from each of them). :lol: Also, I'm keeping this statement you made in my recomendation *"I don't want to spend a ton of money since I will only use it once a year but also don't want a pile."*

TC Black Diamond (blue/composite) - Reg price $249 sale price $235.

Knight Wolverine 209 (stainless/composite) - Reg price $313 sale price $250.

CVA Eclipse Magnum (blue/camo composite) - Reg price $163 sale price $99.

Blue = Blued steel hardware.
Stainless = Stainless steel hardware.
Composite = Composite stock.

I have a TC New Englander for my traditional gun, Knight Disc as my main go to hunting weapon and a CVA Staghorn for a gun to lend to a friend if they don't have a muzzleloader.

I didn't list the TC Omega and the Knight Disc because your preference to not spend a lot of dough, those are excellent guns, but they will be in the $350 and up range. Good luck with your selection and I know you're gonna love muzzleloader season. Quiet, snowy hunts at a great time of the year.


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## Sled Solutions (Nov 19, 2004)

Sib said:


> You want to shoot 209 shotgun primers and all the makes you mention are available with the 209 ignition. The more traditional sidelocks most likely will not offer you the 209 ignition choice, so your probably looking at a modern inline for your weapon.
> 
> On a side note I just got the Nov. Natchez catalog last night.  I guess timing is everything. :lol: Anyway, of the three makes you mentioned all had some sales going on. The best value, imo, on each make are these (I'm going to give you the best buy from each make, because this is a personal decision and I don't want to get into any type of bash fest, besides, I have one gun from each of them). :lol: Also, I'm keeping this statement you made in my recomendation *"I don't want to spend a ton of money since I will only use it once a year but also don't want a pile."*
> 
> ...


The Knight looks like me, I have to do some research on that one but it's priced right. 

Thanks,
Paul


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

I've used the Ultimate since it was a prototype but I got tired of lugging the brute everywhere I went. On a whim I got a TC Omega with a Zeiss 10X40 and thats my main gun I absolutly love it. You don't have to spend the big buck for accuracy though I've seen many Wal=Mart CVA's shoot better than the $2000 ultimate.


Ill take you up on that challenge bring it on! and bring your wally world gun! having 2 of them (ultimates) and an encore and omega) ill take that bet. care to pm who you are and ill confirm that you actually have owned one of these guns! ill take your challenge please please challenge me i can use your wally gun for a plant stake after i win it from you 

link to some current groups shot by an ultimate owner at 100yds
http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/trophygallery/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=2



I alo jsu tposted some pics on another board of my 400yd group 5 shot that is just under 5 inches! can your wally workd gun do that!


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

BPS and Cabelas both sell the TC Omega for $299 in blued barrel and black composite stock. Not bad for one of the easiest to clean guns on the market.


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## SteveS (Mar 6, 2003)

I picked up my stainless TC Omega, with the thumbhole stock, for $329. Dicks was running a pretty good sale a few months back. I don't mind spending a little more for quality, even if it is something I won't use that often. A quality gun will last a long time. I still shoot the same gun my grandfather used to hunt with and he purchased it 60 years ago.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

deputy said:


> I've used the Ultimate since it was a prototype but I got tired of lugging the brute everywhere I went. On a whim I got a TC Omega with a Zeiss 10X40 and thats my main gun I absolutly love it. You don't have to spend the big buck for accuracy though I've seen many Wal=Mart CVA's shoot better than the $2000 ultimate.
> 
> 
> Ill take you up on that challenge bring it on! and bring your wally world gun! having 2 of them (ultimates) and an encore and omega) ill take that bet. care to pm who you are and ill confirm that you actually have owned one of these guns! ill take your challenge please please challenge me i can use your wally gun for a plant stake after i win it from you
> ...


you got mail.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

deputy said:


> I've used the Ultimate since it was a prototype but I got tired of lugging the brute everywhere I went. On a whim I got a TC Omega with a Zeiss 10X40 and thats my main gun I absolutly love it. You don't have to spend the big buck for accuracy though I've seen many Wal=Mart CVA's shoot better than the $2000 ultimate.
> 
> 
> Ill take you up on that challenge bring it on! and bring your wally world gun! having 2 of them (ultimates) and an encore and omega) ill take that bet. care to pm who you are and ill confirm that you actually have owned one of these guns! ill take your challenge please please challenge me i can use your wally gun for a plant stake after i win it from you
> ...


i don't have a wally world gun BTW.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

I PM'd my proof that I have owned an Ultimate and the conditions of the shooting competition so to defend my honor lets get it on!

It should make some good press:corkysm55


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