# Parvo From Jay's in Clare a week ago



## festeraeb (Sep 4, 2005)

Just an FYI we have a puppy in for treatment that was bought at Jay's puppy event a week ago. Not commenting on who the puppy was bought from but wanted to warn others that had puppies there or handled those dogs that Parvo was on the property :-(


----------



## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

I thought Jay's shut down the puppy thing on their grounds?! :rant:


----------



## festeraeb (Sep 4, 2005)

Apparently Not....Sad part it the person who sold the puppy flat out lied to the person who bought it :-( She even commented that one fo the puppies looked lethargic and the owner said Nothing to worry about he is just tired from the days event he will pop right back...they are all vaccinated...then made a vaccination record up in front of the lady...she is now a better informed puppy buyer.


----------



## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

FYI-
Just read that there has been Parvo reported in the Huron Valley Humane Society in Ann Arbor as well.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

midwestfisherman said:


> I thought Jay's shut down the puppy thing on their grounds?! :rant:


Jim,

I know that Jay's shut down their "Puppy daze" operation a couple of years ago after a severe parvo outbreak. Looks like they started it up again. 

*BAD IDEA!!!*:rant:

NB


----------



## GTHC (Apr 19, 2009)

We were up at Jay's Sat. night, the back lot was full of "breeders".


----------



## festeraeb (Sep 4, 2005)

CMR said:


> FYI-
> Just read that there has been Parvo reported in the Huron Valley Humane Society in Ann Arbor as well.


It is pretty rampant this year all over. I bet we see 3 a day in our office in lansing...Well atleast get calls from people 3-4 times a day describing the symptoms :-( Not everyone chooses to treat it or humanely euthanize...and just lets them suffer at home....Even if you dont do it at your Vets office PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make sure they get the annual DHLPP/DHPP as recommended It cost about $800 to treat a parvo dog and the vaccine is less than $12 if given at home.


----------



## tony starks (Aug 9, 2009)

Not just BAD, TERRIBLE!



NATTY BUMPO said:


> Jim,
> 
> I know that Jay's shut down their "Puppy daze" operation a couple of years ago after a severe parvo outbreak. Looks like they started it up again.
> 
> ...


----------



## justbehindit (Nov 30, 2005)

festeraeb said:


> Apparently Not....Sad part it the person who sold the puppy flat out lied to the person who bought it :-( She even commented that one fo the puppies looked lethargic and the owner said Nothing to worry about he is just tired from the days event he will pop right back...they are all vaccinated...then made a vaccination record up in front of the lady...she is now a better informed puppy buyer.


Geez some of these breeders are unbelievable. Each buyer got a copy of the vet record for all shots, dewclaws etc... when we sold our litter. 

Also beware of the breeder who does not provide a guarantee for hips and elbows minimum. You may only get your purchase price back, or another pup but at least you have something to go by. Reputation is important.


----------



## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

This is disgusting. Now that Parvo has been spread at this location the virus can live in the ground and be spread for weeks. So if you let our dog out to take care of business it can pick up the virus and pass it on. Even worse you may just walk in the area and take it home or to a friend or neighbor. Since this is a major retail area can you imagine the danger of how widespead this will now get. 

I would be willing to bet most of the backyard breeders who go to these events with pups never even heard of Parvo. They are just plain ignorant. They buyers are ill-informed.

Personally I am am going to call Jay's to find out what they are going to do about this. It is irrisponsible on their part.


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Im not so sure its any way shape or form "Jay's" fault; but would hope maybe they could attempt to set up an event with maybe "invite" only or such to proven responsible breeders.
Crapper is any type of hobby or activity has its sour apples who ruin a lot of it for the responsible ones.


----------



## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

They have had this experience before. How many times does it have to happen on your property before you think "This is a bad idea". This is done to draw traffic. Professional, responsible breeders do not do this. Puppy sellers do this. Now if Jay's knows that Parvo was spread on their property the property is now contaminated and the spread can continue. 

Why would you invite the general public to bing pups, and I mean 6-10 week old pups or pups that have not been fully immunized to all gather. This a sure fire way to spread disease, It has happened before and they are complicit because they allow the event for their profit. Very poor decision.


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

I agree that its a problem but don't agree that ending the event needs to be the solution.
I would suspect that guidelines and proof of vaccination records, registration of some sort for the event may discourage the "shady" breeders from showing up.

I strongly doubt that Jay's has had any criminal intent regarding this event. Sure its used to draw traffic and consumers to the store, thats retail.

Ultimately IMHO the problem is not Jay's..its way prior to that beginning with the irresponsible breeding. Ive heard of a good many dogs coming out of the event at Jays. In fact one of the best hunting dogs i interact with came from a posting there.

In the end much of the responsibility falls on us. I don't let my dogs associate with non-tagged dogs and avoid places that are likely to be problematic....i.e. Jays for a good while. I also keep my dogs vaccinated.

Not sure if its greed, ignorance, crap economy or just compassion for puppy eyes but I don't suspect the back-yard breeder trend will end any time soon.


----------



## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

Jay's does not have a clue. Pups are allowed at "Any age" as long as they have "All their shots". Just what does that mean? They do not know. I could take a 6 week old or a 18 week old with "All of its shots".

So a 6 week pup which has had all of its shots (to date) can come and still be susceptible to parvo. Whereas, an 18 week old pup which has been through the complete series and is likely to have built an immunity is in the same category as having "All shots".

These events are a disaster waiting to happen. But just my opinion.


----------



## jackbob42 (Nov 12, 2003)

Why someone puts up a post like this without names , to protect other hunters and their dogs , is beyond me.
The only reason I can think of is that they're not 100% sure it came from there.


----------



## festeraeb (Sep 4, 2005)

jackbob42 said:


> Why someone puts up a post like this without names , to protect other hunters and their dogs , is beyond me.
> The only reason I can think of is that they're not 100% sure it came from there.


One I dont know for sure who the person selling these puppies were. I do know it came from last saturdays event and it is a yellow Lab puppy and was sold by a woman that was near the back of the parking lot. I did not want to trouble the owner who is already distraught about her sick new puppy about the specifics of who she bought it from. The information I gave was to let people know who were at the event and might have enteracted with, walked by, or some how came into contact with this area of the parking lot to be careful and watch their dogs and clean their shoes ect if they are around puppies or other dogs that might not have an immunity to PARVO. If you understood how contagious Parvo can be you would understand why I put up the warning. If you look at my original post I didnt point any fingers of balme until I furthur discussed it with the owner of the puppy. Who is now more educated on puppy buying. Many Many Many people are undereducated about Parvo. Like I said we see or speak to several a day that just dont have a clue. However, I place the blame on the person who brought puppies there that had it. If you are breeding pups you should know about propper immunization. Again my intent to this threaqd orginally was not to point fingers. That said after speaking with the owner and getting more specifics about the event I am realitivly sure the seller of these puppies knew darn well she brought atleast one sick dog with her and had not done all the shots like she proclaimed to have done. I am not trying to protect anyone. I think it is highly unethical and immoral of the breeder but there isnt a crime there so I was not sending the owner home to try and find out the name of the person that she bought the dog from....My day was spent helping the Dr treat the dog and getting it thru the next few days


----------



## Buddwiser (Dec 14, 2003)

jackbob42 said:


> Why someone puts up a post like this without names , to protect other hunters and their dogs , is beyond me.
> The only reason I can think of is that they're not 100% sure it came from there.


Ever hear of slander/deformation of character lawsuits? I'm 100% sure that festerab did it the right way. If you chose not to believe him, thats your business.


----------



## lazy8man (Mar 22, 2008)

Thank you for posting the thread. It would have been easier not to. 

Many fellas heading to the Gladwin trial may have stopped at Jay's not to mention everyone coming north this past weekend ( And there sure were a lot of you!) Just like Shotgun said when I stop there thats where I let mine out to run around a bit. Never thought of it before.

Thanks again for the heads up. VERY thoughtful.

Chad


----------



## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

I wasn't aware that Jays had Puppy Daze anymore. I am pretty sure this is just the regular puppy sales that line the parking lot on weekends.

IIRC, Jays has signs posted that say Parvo has been found on site and sellers and buyers should proceed at their own risk.....


----------



## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

I wish people would please just stop buying their dogs from parking lots. Don't these people charge about the same as a reputable breeder?


----------



## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

No!


----------



## GNS Shorthairs (Aug 6, 2008)

If people would stop buying, people would stop selling. In my experience, an average price of a GSP in Jay's parking lot is about $200 - $300, considerably cheaper than the average kennel operation price tag.


----------



## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

GNS Shorthairs said:


> If people would stop buying, people would stop selling. In my experience, an average price of a GSP in Jay's parking lot is about $200 - $300, considerably cheaper than the average kennel operation price tag.


Wow. I've heard of people actually paying a lot more than that out of a parking lot. A lady here at work paid $500 for a lab puppie out of Jays last year. I told her she got jobbed. Yep, paperwork was all counterfeit when she went to register the dog. Phone number and address were also fake.


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Buying or selling in a parking lot is not the issue. 

Cost of the puppy isn't the issue. 

Its the people who don't see the big picture or worst yet give a damn. $$$$$$$ makes people to odd stuff. Poor breeding to begin with and unethical methods to sell all just compile up. 

I continue to support that events like this can be productive if responsible people get together and organize..........and then they "the breeders" use a location like Jays or Gander or a Sports shop as the venue to be visible to prospective buyers. I say this because i doubt "all" the people who were at Jays with dogs are irresponsible, greedy or ignorant.

Maybe instead of breeders being awstruck about the events they could lessen a bit of their own motives and unite to bring puppies together in a organized safe way to things like this. Or maybe that already happens and someone could post up a schedule.


----------



## jackbob42 (Nov 12, 2003)

Buddwiser said:


> Ever hear of slander/deformation of character lawsuits? I'm 100% sure that festerab did it the right way. If you chose not to believe him, thats your business.


Yes I have , hence the " 100% sure " comment. It's not slander/defomation of character if it's the truth.
And , it could have been worded so as not to be slanderous.

festeraeb - If you would have said that you didn't know who the breeder was in the first post , it wouldn't have been a big deal. 
But , your comment " Not commenting on who the puppy was bought from..." lead me to believe that you knew who it was.
But , I still applaud your effort to warn others ! 
Thank-you !


----------



## WeimsRus (Oct 30, 2007)

Getting back to the original reason for this post, Jay's in Gaylord has also had this problem in the past. This type of flea market pet sales is just asking for problems, spend the extra cash and use a reputable breeder.


----------



## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Rugergundog said:


> Buying or selling in a parking lot is not the issue.
> 
> Cost of the puppy isn't the issue.
> 
> ...


Very good points!!! Just from my own expierence, I had 2 pups from a litter of 8 that were around 12 weeks old a nieghbor suggested I take them to Jays. The only people that showed up were "tire kickers" and little kids that wanted to play with puppies. There was another guy there that had 10 Brit pups I think he sold 2 and he claims he got full price for them, but I doubt it.


----------



## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

jackbob42 said:


> Yes I have , hence the " 100% sure " comment. It's not slander/defomation of character if it's the truth.
> And , it could have been worded so as not to be slanderous.


Regardless, if he works in the vet clinic, it's unethical of him to post the breeders name. All he knows is what the client states, whether he believes them to be telling the truth or not doesn't much matter.

Now, if the purchaser chose to get on here and post it, that would be entirely their choice...but as a second hand party, I wouldn't think it to be appropriate.

I appreciate the thread as I didn't realize that Huron Valley had seen so much Parvo. I've got two six week old pups that I am fostering, guess they won't be going there for their alterations, or we'll wait til they are 13 weeks.


----------



## GTHC (Apr 19, 2009)

I stopped in at Jay's on Sat. on the way home from a GLSD Hunt Test in Marion, I had the kids with me, and of course they had to see the puppies. I'm sure glad I didn't let my dog out of his crate while we were there!!
I vividly remember seeing this poor pup, he was by himself in a wire crate next to the sliding door of the "breeders" mini van. 
I'm no vet, or breeder, but he seemed very lethargic, and was just layed out flat in his crate. I know it was hot, but he just didn't look well. 
I questioned the lady as to the dogs well being, she replied "six week old pups need alot of sleep" 
I wish someone would of told my Brittany that at 6 weeks old!! 
Anyway, to me, the pup looked way older than 6 weeks, and he looked sickley not sleepy. 
She offered to take him out for the kids to hold, I declined.
After reading this post, I'm glad the kids were almost puppy'd out by the time we got to this one, so they didn't put up much of a fight, and we left.


----------



## festeraeb (Sep 4, 2005)

snowman11 said:


> Regardless, if he works in the vet clinic, it's unethical of him to post the breeders name. All he knows is what the client states, whether he believes them to be telling the truth or not doesn't much matter.
> 
> Now, if the purchaser chose to get on here and post it, that would be entirely their choice...but as a second hand party, I wouldn't think it to be appropriate.
> 
> I appreciate the thread as I didn't realize that Huron Valley had seen so much Parvo. I've got two six week old pups that I am fostering, guess they won't be going there for their alterations, or we'll wait til they are 13 weeks.


Waiting tell they are fully protected by the vaccines is a good idea!!!! As to going somewhere like a vets office and being afraid of Parvo shouldnt be as much of a risk as you might think. For instance when working with a dog that has parvo I spray bleach on all exposed skin after handling them. I step in a bleach bath for my shoes when ever I enter or exit the room they are kept in for treatment and we wear platic coveralls over our normal clothes. That is pretty standard protocol for vets offices.....But like you said w/o getting into the debate of when is the best time to spay/neuter waiting tell they are fully protected from the vaccines to take them ANYWHERE or to have other dogs that go places around them is a pretty safe and smart Pratice.

As to the ethical issues...Yes they concern me but my original intent to this thread was just to warn people that might not know what precautions they should take. I reallt have tried to stay away from even the debate as to whether the event at jays is a good or bad idea. The person that bought this pup was not an educated puppy buyer. The person that sold it in MHO should have known better and if she didnt shame on her. As an example I took and exposed a lot of dogs to Kennel Cough at an event a few months ago. On purpose no. My dogs are up to date on all shots including Bordetella. The day after the event they showed signs of KC. This was a sock diving event so the day they showed symptoms I made a post on that web board to let others know. KC is not as much of a concern health wise as Parvo but it can be dangerous and at least inconvienent for the owners. But it has a minimum of 3 day incubation period so I was the one that took it there they didnt contract it there. So accidents happen even to someone who id trying to do it right. In the case of the lady that sold this puppy She wasnt trying to do it right...Did she know for sure that her dogs had Parvo I would hope not. Did she know they were more than likely not up to date on their shots I am pretty sure she did and more than likely lied to the owner. (the dog was older than 6 weeks) The shot record that she got did not have the tags from the vile and the lady circled what she said she gave to the pups in front of the buyer...Again why our best defense is educating puppy buyers on what to look for when buying a pup....I fight with this because it is not the pups fault the breeder of them are not ethical so in the end I am glad this pup wound up with someone willing to treat it for its ailment and will have a wonderful home. 
I know I did later comment about the lies I felt were told to the buyer and probably shouldnt but after my conversation with the puppies owner I was a little infuriated. I know how I orginally posted it made it sound like I was trying to protect someone...Next time I will choose better words 

and to everyone who said thanks YOUR WELCOME


----------



## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

GNS Shorthairs said:


> If people would stop buying, people would stop selling. In my experience, an average price of a GSP in Jay's parking lot is about $200 - $300, considerably cheaper than the average kennel operation price tag.


Bottom line is you get what you pay for. If you are foolish enough to buy that junk from the parking lots you deserve the education that comes along with it.They know nothing of the sellers reputation, they know nothing of the pups parentage or abilities.They are buying on a whim.
The same thing goes on every year at the woods and water deal in Lapeer.Its a puppy dumping ground for half axxed breeders/scamers, looking to make a quick buck.


----------



## GamebirdPreserve (Nov 21, 2006)

GTHC said:


> I stopped in at Jay's on Sat. on the way home from a GLSD Hunt Test in Marion, I had the kids with me, and of course they had to see the puppies. I'm sure glad I didn't let my dog out of his crate while we were there!!
> I vividly remember seeing this poor pup, he was by himself in a wire crate next to the sliding door of the "breeders" mini van.
> I'm no vet, or breeder, but he seemed very lethargic, and was just layed out flat in his crate. I know it was hot, but he just didn't look well.
> I questioned the lady as to the dogs well being, she replied "six week old pups need alot of sleep"
> ...


 
*Back to the whole reason of this post - to educate others about the seriousness of PARVO and take precautions to protect your pets and others, as well.*

After reading your post ... I am concerned that you do not realize how contagious this PARVO is. If you and your children were that close to that puppy, you could have easily stepped where that puppy went "potty" and you could be an unknown carrier to your neighborhood via your shoes. It is probably already too late, but I would seriously consider disinfecting all of your shoes with a bleach solution so that you do not spread it to any other areas where you walk and an unvaccinated dog could contract the PARVO from yoiur shoes and be deadly. As long as your dog is fully vaccinated , it is not a problem - but it is a deadly problem to any puppy or dog that has not been fully vaccinated. 

This is not anything to be taken lightly.


----------



## GTHC (Apr 19, 2009)

GamebirdPreserve said:


> *Back to the whole reason of this post - to educate others about the seriousness of PARVO and take precautions to protect your pets and others, as well.*
> 
> After reading your post ... I am concerned that you do not realize how contagious this PARVO is. If you and your children were that close to that puppy, you could have easily stepped where that puppy went "potty" and you could be an unknown carrier to your neighborhood via your shoes. It is probably already too late, but I would seriously consider disinfecting all of your shoes with a bleach solution so that you do not spread it to any other areas where you walk and an unvaccinated dog could contract the PARVO from yoiur shoes and be deadly. As long as your dog is fully vaccinated , it is not a problem - but it is a deadly problem to any puppy or dog that has not been fully vaccinated.
> 
> This is not anything to be taken lightly.


After reading Festerab's post about cleaning your shoes and procedures taken in the Vets Clinic that's exactly what I did. I also cleaned the trucks floor mats with bleach and water. 
My dog is fully vaccinated, so after talking with my Vet, I knew there wasn't any concern.
As for the kids, luckily it wasn't just the boys and I, my little girl was with us, and being the extension of my wife that she is :lol:, she made sure everone used her pocket hand sanitizer solution after we were done looking at the pups. Guess I can't make fun of the wife for that anymore.

Thank you for your concern, and advice, it is very much appreciated. 

Mario...


----------



## GamebirdPreserve (Nov 21, 2006)

GTHC said:


> After reading Festerab's post about cleaning your shoes and procedures taken in the Vets Clinic that's exactly what I did. I also cleaned the trucks floor mats with bleach and water.
> My dog is fully vaccinated, so after talking with my Vet, I knew there wasn't any concern.
> As for the kids, luckily it wasn't just the boys and I, my little girl was with us, and being the extension of my wife that she is :lol:, she made sure everone used her pocket hand sanitizer solution after we were done looking at the pups. Guess I can't make fun of the wife for that anymore.
> 
> ...


Mario,

*GOOD NEWS!* Thanks for being pro-active in trying to curb the rampant spread of this thing. It sounds like you did everything that you possibly could. I am sure that is just the reason that this post was originally created ... so that we can all benefit for each other's sake. 

Because this is the largest outbreak in 20 years .... at this time we all need to take extra precautions and keep our young dogs away from unknowing carriers until fully vaccinated ... and this is not an easy thing to do!


----------



## riverroadbeagles (Oct 14, 2007)

I guess I dont understand people that buy out of parking lots. Woundnt you want to see the kennel facilaties where the dogs are raised? Look at other dogs in there kennel to see if there healthy. My wife is always making fun of me because I keep my kennels clean but cant clean up after myself in the house:lol:


----------



## WeimsRus (Oct 30, 2007)

riverroadbeagles said:


> I guess I dont understand people that buy out of parking lots. Woundnt you want to see the kennel facilaties where the dogs are raised? Look at other dogs in there kennel to see if there healthy. My wife is always making fun of me because I keep my kennels clean but cant clean up after myself in the house:lol:


The reason people buy dogs out of flea markets, parking lots, and puppy mills is because they either....

1. Are not familure with the breed, it's breed standard, and original intent when the breed was created. 

2. Do not fully understand why a reputable breeder asks the price they do for a well bred dog of that breed. 

3. Are buying a cute puppy on impulse because of 1 and 2. 

Answers to 1, 2, and 3....

A1. Before you even think about buying a cute puppy, research the breed, find out the breeds original intent, and get very familure with the breeds standards. This means temperment, health concerns, body structure, and acceptable colors and markings. Know this only pertains, mostly, to Show and Field Trialers but will help you spot a bad breeding. 

A2. A reputable breeder takes the time and spends the money to do health checks on the breeding pair to ensure healthy pups with the records to prove this, fully vaccinates these pups and has records to prove this, has the Registry paperwork to prove both Sire and Dam are registered so the pups can be also if they haven't already been registered in a registered Kennel name and finally DO NOT sell their pups out of a parking lot, Flea Market, or other avenue like this because they are already loosing money on the litter selling it to you at market price. 

A3. Don't buy a puppy on "impulse", thourghly research the breed and the breeder. 

IMHO a reputable breeder does this for the love of the breed, love of their pups produced that represent the breed standard, and the love of the looks on the Owners face when they pick up that "Cute Puppy". It's not about the money for me..... 

It's all about the breed, Weims.


----------



## GTHC (Apr 19, 2009)

I'm not trying to sidetrack this post, but as we are talking about breeders, I spent a fair amount of time searching for a breeder when I bought my first gun dog 2 yrs ago. Read alot, spent time on the net, and visited several kennels. 
What struck me as strange at first, ended up being what made me finalize my decision on what breeder to deal with. The first time I spoke with him he told me the price of his pups, info about the parents, and his location. We had to cut the conversation short so he said he would call me back the next day. When he did, to my surprise he talked to me for over an hour, pratically an interview. Wanted to somewhat know my background, lifestyle,etc. Not nosey or rude, just very interested on where his pup was going to call home. He has been breeding Brittany's for about 30 years, and as stated above by Weim to him it's all about the breed. He assured me that his pups are always welcomed back to his home, for any reason, no questions asked for a full refund. At first I thought ya right! Nice sales pitch, but after dealing with him I know he is a man of his word. 
Ends up that two years later we have become good friends and talk on the phone weekly. I began putting my dog in fun runs and hunt tests, and he's always looking for an update, if he dosen't make it out to watch.
Definetly do your homework before getting a new pup, it is well woth the time and energy spent. And there is a good chance that you may end up with two great friends out of the deal!!


----------



## WeimsRus (Oct 30, 2007)

GTHC said:


> I'm not trying to sidetrack this post, but as we are talking about breeders, I spent a fair amount of time searching for a breeder when I bought my first gun dog 2 yrs ago. Read alot, spent time on the net, and visited several kennels.
> What struck me as strange at first, ended up being what made me finalize my decision on what breeder to deal with. The first time I spoke with him he told me the price of his pups, info about the parents, and his location. We had to cut the conversation short so he said he would call me back the next day. When he did, to my surprise he talked to me for over an hour, pratically an interview. Wanted to somewhat know my background, lifestyle,etc. Not nosey or rude, just very interested on where his pup was going to call home. He has been breeding Brittany's for about 30 years, and as stated above by Weim to him it's all about the breed. He assured me that his pups are always welcomed back to his home, for any reason, no questions asked for a full refund. At first I thought ya right! Nice sales pitch, but after dealing with him I know he is a man of his word.
> Ends up that two years later we have become good friends and talk on the phone weekly. I began putting my dog in fun runs and hunt tests, and he's always looking for an update, if he dosen't make it out to watch.
> Definetly do your homework before getting a new pup, it is well woth the time and energy spent. And there is a good chance that you may end up with two great friends out of the deal!!












One of my best that was forever homed for no cost, because of my ethics issue. Still get the updates from the owners, Thanks for the "at a boy" GTHC, Weims.


----------



## festeraeb (Sep 4, 2005)

Great...I love everything that was said above but one part...I hate that people make the statment that I am loosing money selling you this pup at the 800-1200 dollar market value. I think it hurts the reputable breeders when that is being said. YES I do know the cost associated with HT and titleing your dogs. Not to mention training. But you title and train your dogs because like you said before you love the breed and working with your dogs. THe health tests cost money but if you take out the equation of titles and training which you would likely do anyways you arent loosing money and if you try to tell someone who has never titled or trained a dog they will have no clue what you mean by the costs. I could be wrong but I think a statment like that makes our case of researching the breeder weaker when it is stated.


----------



## Hackman (Aug 13, 2008)

as long as you truthfully believe something to be true you can say anything you want


----------



## Hackman (Aug 13, 2008)

I have a Lab / Setter mix thats almost 13 and would bet it would have performed with vast majority of all the high priced dogs from breeders. My dog never had any physical problems, has great temperment, and is in excellant shape for his age. While my friend has been thru three labs acquired from breeders which each he paid large sums off cash for the papers and lineage. 1st one had diebetes was put to sleep, 2nd one got cancer and was put to sleep. And I still have my trusty friend sitting by my feet right now. You can have your breeders.


----------



## JTC (Jun 22, 2006)

Statements like that last one truly scare me.

Hackman, Please keep those types of thoughts to yourself and don't pass them on to your kids.


Jim


----------



## WeimsRus (Oct 30, 2007)

festeraeb said:


> Great...I love everything that was said above but one part...I hate that people make the statment that I am loosing money selling you this pup at the 800-1200 dollar market value. I think it hurts the reputable breeders when that is being said. YES I do know the cost associated with HT and titleing your dogs. Not to mention training. But you title and train your dogs because like you said before you love the breed and working with your dogs. THe health tests cost money but if you take out the equation of titles and training which you would likely do anyways you arent loosing money and if you try to tell someone who has never titled or trained a dog they will have no clue what you mean by the costs. I could be wrong but I think a statment like that makes our case of researching the breeder weaker when it is stated.





Hackman said:


> I have a Lab / Setter mix thats almost 13 and would bet it would have performed with vast majority of all the high priced dogs from breeders. My dog never had any physical problems, has great temperment, and is in excellant shape for his age. While my friend has been thru three labs acquired from breeders which each he paid large sums off cash for the papers and lineage. 1st one had diebetes was put to sleep, 2nd one got cancer and was put to sleep. And I still have my trusty friend sitting by my feet right now. You can have your breeders.


It is for the love of the breed and dogs and Hackman has given the exact reason it is important to thourghly research the breed and breeder. Even with the knowledge I have obtained through the years I still have paid for dogs that have ended up with health problems and were unbreedable. This is a good point, because since being someone who enjoys their reputation of being a reputible breeder these dogs were not allowed to be bred. They still lived out their lives with me and we enjoyed every minute of being companions together.


----------



## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

Hackman decided to do a little trolling in this thread.


----------



## Hackman (Aug 13, 2008)

If you want to have a purebred for the money making of pups, I can't put you down for that. But a lot of people think you have to have papers and pay 1000.00 bucks. Thats not true and you scare me. While you look at you dog's pedigree on the wall. I'll be out in the marsh or field running my dog and having fun. You can't eat papers. Nothing wrong with puirebreeds or breeders if you don't go overboard which I know they do. Have fun with throwing bumpers ,my dog likes the real stuff.


----------



## WeimsRus (Oct 30, 2007)

Hackman said:


> If you want to have a purebred for the money making of pups, I can't put you down for that. But a lot of people think you have to have papers and pay 1000.00 bucks. Thats not true and you scare me. While you look at you dog's pedigree on the wall. I'll be out in the marsh or field running my dog and having fun. You can't eat papers. Nothing wrong with puirebreeds or breeders if you don't go overboard which I know they do. Have fun with throwing bumpers ,my dog likes the real stuff.


Hackman, do the same with my purebreds and for some reason I don't believe you have anything close to what you are describing because bumpers are standard training items and something you do to keep them occupied in the off season. I am not going to justify the over pricing of purebred dogs because it does happen. I'll tell you frankly though, people are getting more money for these "Designer, Half-Breed Mutts" than most of us are charging for for a purebred, health tested, pedigreed dog that has a documented history of this and, the skills and abilities we want in a dog. It was clearly stated that previously, that you need to research the breeder and the line the dog comes from to ensure none of these health problems, and others arise when you are thinking about buying one. With a rescue like you got, I am thinking this is how you got yours or it was a "OOPS, litter", you just didn't roll "snake eyes" when you picked him. What you described in your first post can happen to people with purebred or mixed breeds, especially if they don't do their homework. Happens to people that do their homework, can tell you this from experiance. Puppys are similar to Children you do your best to raise them in a manner that is acceptable and hope you can train them to act in a way that is acceptible, as you would like them to. Although like Family and Friends you can choose your Friends and Pups, but you cannot choose your Family and Children. I tend to like to know the background on my Friends and Pups. Know this post is way over your head. :banghead3


----------

