# Salmon do bite



## Oldgrandman

Probably asking for a lock from the get go here, hope that is not the case.

But why do people think salmon will not bite bait or lures in the river mid-way or even late in the run?
I have had spawned out fish lumber out or even dart out for a spinner and take it, spawners leap over a spawning mate to hit a lure, even take a spawn sack so deep they could not possibly be lined. Many other methods work too.
Why is this so hard to believe  ? It happens.


----------



## no lead

its a proven fact salmon will bite in the river. i get them on hardware all the time. spawn tears them up too. fish the right way and you cant miss.
im sure people will slam me now too.:rant:


----------



## Alpha Buck

I think most people know they will bite lures and bait. Alot of people have a hard time thinking that a fish that grew up munching 2-7 inch alewives and is no longer feeding will go ahead and smash a green caddis or stonefly.


----------



## thousandcasts

Alpha Buck said:


> I think most people know they will bite lures and bait. Alot of people have a hard time thinking that a fish that grew up munching 2-7 inch alewives and is no longer feeding will go ahead and smash a green caddis or stonefly.


Exactly. I'll be the first to testify that salmon WILL attack certain presentations in the river. What I take exception with is this whole yarn and hook thing. Salmon are predators that live in the mid to lower water columns in the lakes. They eat fish--not bugs. They are not adaptable in that way, and their strict alewife diet is why there is concern for the lake fisheries. Salmon simply do not change their diets, they are a predatory species. They will attack--rip your arm off attack certain lures during certain stages of their migrations. They are incapable of feeding at that point--they're internal organs no longer function that way (part of the dying process) and they live off their fat supplies until spawning and death. Yet, wonderfully, they still have the instinct to attack certain lures, baits etc because their aggressive behavior (they're the top of the food chain in the lake) is not something that they lose. Yes, salmon bite in the rivers--sometimes, they even smash certain offerings. However, salmon do not eat yarn, nor do they eat bugs. Will they snap at a large gaudy fly that approaches their redds? Rarely, but yes they will--not with the same aggression as they would a lure earlier in the migration. Simply put, standing up in the boils at 6th St. or Green Cottage on the PM or Suicide Bend on the Big M, flinging yarn isn't triggering "bites," it's merely lining. 

Personally, I have no problem with any fish hooked in the mouth. If yarn dude lines a dozen fish, I could care less--they're legally hooked and legally taken. However, don't confuse that with aggression or instinctive "biting." Salmon attack fish or "fishy" type lures with aggression, but they could care less about bugs or yarn for that matter. No biggie, I use yarn eggs on occassion, but I know full well that my fish are lined and I know for a fact that it's nothing more than that. Lures, skein, plugs--they'll smash, no doubt about it and those items listed above are why I love fishing river kings. Yarn and Caddis's and Hare's ears...nope, line 'em and dine 'em. No matter what though, the key is to just have fun with whatever you use and release the foul hooked fish. 

Of course, that's just my opinion, developed from over 20 years of fishing for river kings. Others may disagree and that's fine, but I know for a fact what salmon will strike on and I know what's good for linin' them.


----------



## PurePerfection

It's not so much biting per say but more along the lines of pissing them off. The lures they hit are out of anger for the most part durring the end of there run. The spawn they eat so there's has a better shot of living, it's what the fish knows. The bigening and middle of the run they will eat though, twoard the end after they've spawned it's a reaction strike.


----------



## thousandcasts

You're half right there. Even in the beginning and the middle of the run, those fish have ceased feeding per se' and are living off their fat supplies. It's still an instinctive strike at that point and one that's a bit more fresh in their minds, so to speak. There's a reason why salmon in the rivers, even the ones at the beginning of the run, have empty stomachs--they simply can't digest food anymore.

There's a reason the big lake fishery gets so good in the early to mid summer--those adults are going on a feeding frenzy to build up fat supplies for the spawn. In truth, however, those fish generally lose the ability to feed and digest prior to entering the river.


----------



## PurePerfection

thousandcasts said:


> You're half right there. Even in the beginning and the middle of the run, those fish have ceased feeding per se' and are living off their fat supplies. It's still an instinctive strike at that point and one that's a bit more fresh in their minds, so to speak. There's a reason why salmon in the rivers, even the ones at the beginning of the run, have empty stomachs--they simply can't digest food anymore.


Oh, well thanks for the info and clearing that up for me


----------



## Oldgrandman

Yes agreed, they probably are reacting and striking, not necessarily to eat or digest some food. Thats just semantics, a bite is a bite whatever the reason.
So far I have failed to get in their heads to really "know" why they do it but I'll keep trying and get back to you on that  .
Yarn on a treble I cannot really speak to, nothing I use but if it works for you go get em. But i'd suggest there are beter ways for sure.


----------



## PurePerfection

Next week I'll be heading to croton to see if I can get my first salmon to bite, my only other one was snagging, I thought it was allowed at that time, not I know better


----------



## Trout King

steve...agree and somewhat disagree about the yarn theory. i think sometimes they do strike yarn, but do not necessarily intend to eat it. kind of in the same way that they tend to hit wobble glos and spinners. i have caught kings that had my yarn burried in the throat, or deeply hooked. not saying they inhale it all of the time, but just saying i have seen them strike it. i have seen steelies come off their redds to hit a yarn ball too. i think sometimes when things drift by their face, even small flies they have a reaction to stike the lure or bait, not eat it.


----------



## Trout King

more on yarn...my main word is sometimes...and yes only sometimes...i think they will strike yarn....but a lot of fish on yarn are lined as you stated.


----------



## Zofchak

It's probable that most salmon are "lined" while fishing any type of drifted presentation, but not always. I've watched running salmon follow and strike yarn egg imitations on multiple occasions. Some of those times is was blatantly obvious that the fish was targeting the lure and went out of their way to hit it. Still spawn and flashy plugs and spinners are definitely the way to go after the fish have been in the river a while.


----------



## Hex4steel

In a nutshell, I used to strictly fish flies for salmon (kings, cohos, and pinks) for about 8 years. Although I now fish skein and floats primarily, I can tell you this.........for the most part, kings are lined with flies but I have caught biting fish. I've seen cohos chase a beadhead wolly bugger 15 feet off a bed and hit the fly right at my feet. Spawning cohos are very territorial. Pinks will anything you put in their face, that is if you can get something in their face before you hook one of the 4000 fish in a 10ft section of river.


----------



## Kelsey1

Great posts Thousandcasts!


----------



## TSS Caddis

Hex4steel said:


> for the most part, kings are lined with flies but I have caught biting fish.


Same here.

I remember a rainy day on the PM where a late push came in and I maybe saw 5 anglers from Green Cottage to Gleasons. I think I hooked around 15 legit on flies that day but by far that is not the norm. It can be amazing how much of a difference having unmolested fish can make. By a large amount though, back when I fished salmon, if I had 2 legit biters on flies in a day, it was a good day. I have no real urge to chase a snagged fish down river, nor do I find interest in placing the fly in their mouth. I would much rather fish spawn or a stick bait and know the king hit.

I don't think many people feel kings don't bite, I think the feeling is more when fishing flies, what kind of frequency do they bite.

I remember a thread on that one Erie fishing forum, don't remember the name, where a bunch of guys from Penn. drove over and fished the PM early in the run with flies. They were not having any luck and then someone "helped" them out. They were told that they needed more weight and needed a leader of about 9'  after that they started to light up the "biters" or at least they were biters in their eyes and you could not tell them differently.

IMHO, you'll never see concensus on this type of topic.


----------



## Brown duck

Not disagreeing with the fact that salmon grow up in the big lake eating bigger baitfish, and I'm not disagreeing with the fact (or opinion) that many (if not most) salmon on flies are lined, but you have to remember where these fish are being hatched out - in the river. Before they make their way back to the big lake, they're taking a bug or two along the way - until they're big enough to eat that baitfish. Hence, the theory that they are keying in on bugs that they saw while in the river and attacking them out of aggression.

Personally, I've had better days with some flies than others - some of my patterns will catch fish, others will not even get a bump - the only way I can explain it is that they are biting a certain fly.


----------



## Fishndude

Fish have no emotions. They do not get angry, or sad, or have their feelings hurt. I believe that TC nailed it by saying that they will strike out of instinct, or to see what that odd looking thing is - and they don't have hands to find out. Once they enter a river to spawn, they cannot feed, because their stomachs literally begin to dissolve into mush. But they will bite if they are not pressured too much. The longer they are in the river, the less likely it is that they will bite a lot, but sometimes weather and other influences will cause them to go on a wild bite, even when they are pretty moldy. 

I can remember fishing a large pool of still water below a dam, years ago, in late November or early December. I had REAL old Kings biting on very small jigs with wigglers (2) under a bobber. They would take my float down very slowly, and when I would set the hook it would come flying back at me. Once I watched my float "swim around" about 40 feet before setting the hook, and still didn't connect. They were just grabbing the wigglers by the ***** or something.:lol: 
I got tons of bites, but only hooked and landed one fish. It was still fun.


----------



## TSS Caddis

Brown duck said:


> but you have to remember where these fish are being hatched out - in the river. Before they make their way back to the big lake, they're taking a bug or two along the way - until they're big enough to eat that baitfish. Hence, the theory that they are keying in on bugs that they saw while in the river and attacking them out of aggression.


My 3 year old has no urge to eat baby food when she see's it, even though she ate it until she was 1.

IMHO, a lot of standard mantra's are burned out. Salmon remembering eating bugs after they were hatched is one of them. This my opinion, but after eating alewives for 2 years, entering the river and having their digestive systems atrophy, it doesn't add up to me that their instinct to eat would cause them to eat a caddis let alone eating a caddis because they remember doing so in the past.


----------



## Alpha Buck

From the sounds of it yarn is a pretty important part of the king salmons diet, especially up in the boils of a dam. I doubt they would be swimming through with there mouths open with the water being so warm.


----------



## J - Rod

TSS Caddis said:


> My 3 year old has no urge to eat baby food when she see's it, even though she ate it until she was 1.
> 
> IMHO, a lot of standard mantra's are burned out. Salmon remembering eating bugs after they were hatched is one of them. This my opinion, but after eating alewives for 2 years, entering the river and having their digestive systems atrophy, it doesn't add up to me that their instinct to eat would cause them to eat a caddis let alone eating a caddis because they remember doing so in the past.


Based on your and TC's logic (striking lures instinctively because they imitate the baitfish they have been feeding on), then they shouldn't strike spawn becuase they haven't been eating that for the last couple years. Yet you both say they readily take spawn. What's your reasoning for that?


----------



## Trout King

Personally I don't think salmon mean to feed on anything in the river. I think sometimes when something floats by there face it triggers a strike. Who knows exactly why. It could be territorial...like them saying "get that outta my face", or just something they decided to swat at. Why do they hit spinners? Why do they bite on egg sacks? they aren't feeding...it's just in there face, so they hit it. Same things with yarn, I think it can sometimes set them off, and draw a strike. I was at a damn earlier this year when they were hitting everything. I switched from skein to yarn, and the bite didn't change. I even had one feisty little king hit the yarn at my feet while i was retrieving it. I was getting ready to pull it up when I saw him come up and smash it. I just believe different things draw different reactions at different times. JMO.


----------



## Alpha Buck

I think they hit eggs because of their scent. I could be wrong but I would imagine that the smell of them has alot to do with the fish hitting them.


----------



## Trout King

I agree alpha...most of the time when I fish yarn I bring along some spawn juice...dip it in every few drifts and it makes a BIG difference. I also had good success with steelies when I used some eggs cured in garlic...don't ask why but they bit it pretty well. I think scent is a big thing in triggering strikes.


----------



## steelie

Good Day,

I would be pretty hungry if my stomach atrophied...:lol: 

Good points all... Oh sure I have seen salmon make an obvious move at a fly, and then had fun fighting them... however the lining arguement has great merit as well. I know a few good master flossers out there. For example; I have seen some great master flossers on the Grand near the dam or in the boils. In fact, I remember years ago when I was newbie down there, about 16 years ago, I was fishing in the second run on the east side. I was not yet used to the program. The guy next to me was a real nice fellow. He began to explain the art of lining to me. Said it was one of the best ways to catch fish in that and a few other runs there vs. the nymphing technique I was using. 

"You feel it? Good, patience, patience, wait.... wait some more. Make sure that hook is in or near the mouth...don't want to be a snagger... STRIKE!"

However I also found that on a couple of the runs down there to let the fly dangle at the end of the drift for a few seconds, like to a count of five or so. Many times I have had a fish nab the fly and almost rip the rod right out of my hand. I suppose the fly must be hanging right in front of their nose and then... whack... Hooked right between the two front teeth. I have had this happen with browns and both salmon, but more so with steelhead.

Now I hope this does not rile the nest too much, but I have been thinking about this... is lining not dangerously close to being snagging? I understand the difference between ripping and hooking, but is it not just a well placed hook and a "snag at the mouth"... hmmmmmm..... Now I admit that I have lined fish. But I wonder if a C.O. would consider lining to be like snagging.... interesting.... any comment... nice ones now, keep it clean fellas... haha

Steelie


----------



## TSS Caddis

J - Rod said:


> Based on your and TC's logic (striking lures instinctively because they imitate the baitfish they have been feeding on), then they shouldn't strike spawn becuase they haven't been eating that for the last couple years. Yet you both say they readily take spawn. What's your reasoning for that?


Like AB said, I would imagine it is the scent. If it wasn't the scent then yarn would work as well as spawn, and it doesn't.

I have a buddy that has been guiding on the Big M for about the last 15 years. For 12 or so of those years he was "fly only" and absolutely hated fishing kings with flies because of all the snagged and lined fish. The last few years he has been throwing stick baits and has sworn off flies for kings. 

Anyone that has fished flies for kings for very long knows how that game is played.


----------



## PurePerfection

Alpha Buck said:


> I think they hit eggs because of their scent. I could be wrong but I would imagine that the smell of them has alot to do with the fish hitting them.


instinct is why, the eat the eggs so there eggs will live.


----------



## thousandcasts

I read somewhere, or saw it on a documentary, that salmon will smash other eggs to insure the survival of their own, but earlier in the run when those fish are nowhere near gravel you'd have to think that scent plays a huge part of it. I mean, those fish can home in on almost the exact same spot they were hatched due to scent, so a gob of gooey skein drifting through a slow run has to have some sort of scent that triggers that striking instinct.


----------



## FREEPOP

Oh, that's why they like to swim betwwen Scarletfever's legs :yikes: :lol: :lol:


----------



## mich buckmaster

I know of a place where you anchor over by Hammond by a steel mill, and you can catch them on hardware ALL day!!


----------



## PurePerfection

thousandcasts said:


> I read somewhere, or saw it on a documentary, that salmon will smash other eggs to insure the survival of their own, but earlier in the run when those fish are nowhere near gravel you'd have to think that scent plays a huge part of it. I mean, those fish can home in on almost the exact same spot they were hatched due to scent, so a gob of gooey skein drifting through a slow run has to have some sort of scent that triggers that striking instinct.


Can you please explain what skein is and how I fish it? Sorry for the ignorance


----------



## thousandcasts

Skein is the tight eggs that are still in the membrane--as opposed to "loose" eggs when they're on gravel. When you pull that giant gooey glob out of a hens gut, that's skein. You can either fish chunks of it under a bobber or tie it in bags and do the the same thing. Another good method for skein is walking it down river behind a boat. More or less bottom fishing it, but lifting the rod slowly and letting out line so the current carries it downstream.


----------



## PurePerfection

thousandcasts said:


> Skein is the tight eggs that are still in the membrane--as opposed to "loose" eggs when they're on gravel. When you pull that giant gooey glob out of a hens gut, that's skein. You can either fish chunks of it under a bobber or tie it in bags and do the the same thing. Another good method for skein is walking it down river behind a boat. More or less bottom fishing it, but lifting the rod slowly and letting out line so the current carries it downstream.


Oh okay, thanks, Trout King tryed to explain it but I didn't get it.


----------



## J - Rod

Skein is eggs still in the egg sack with the membrane still intact (not loose eggs).

If salmon are striking eggs instinctively, they probably do so out of sight and smell. So based on that you'd think you would concur that a salmon would hit yarn or an egg fly based on that fact that it imitates eggs. Same way a crank or spinner imitates a baitfish (no scent there). Obviously the real stuff would outproduce the imitiation, but based on your logic, you should agree that a salmon can strike yarn if it identifies it as eggs.

That being said, I've only had success on #1) stickbaits #2) wobbling plugs #3)spinners. A few hookups on worms and spawn under a bobber, but not landed so who knows if they were legit. I just can't get consistent hits on eggs. My theory is that river salmon strike lures out of aggression, not instinct. That belief and my lack of success with spawn only lessens my confidence in spawn and flies.


----------



## FREEPOP

I've had good luck with the egg scent on a yarn egg, fishhed off the bottom of the river in Ludington.


----------



## steelie

Good Day,

Freepop... I tried a product previous to my accident called Mykiss Mouse on yarn on the Grand. It did improve my catch rate a bit. Not remendous, but a bit more... also, be careful where you cary scent... don't want to get caught on flies only water with it.

Steelie


----------



## FREEPOP

steelie said:


> . don't want to get caught on flies only water with it.


I don't have enough Orvis to be allowed in there


----------



## Alpha Buck

PurePerfection said:


> instinct is why, the eat the eggs so there eggs will live.


And they distiguish a big ball of skein from a big ball of yarn by scent.


----------



## ausable_steelhead

River salmon can, at times, bite very well. Rainy overcast weather, and unpressured fish can, with the right baits, produce good action. The three best presentations for river chins are bodybaits, spawn, and spinners, not in any particular order. Like mentioned, spawn works because of the smell. I mean if you were a salmon, and a big ole' glob of smelly skein, or a fresh choker bag came drifting right in your face, wouldn't you rail it?


----------



## thousandcasts

Depends, I guess. I've thrown a spinner at 50 kings and watched them completely ignore it or actually part like the red sea everytime I ran it through the pool. Other times, I've had one nail it as soon as I started the retrieve. You gotta keep in mind that out of a huge pod of fish, there's only a few that are going to have that innate instinct and aggression to actually strike the lure. You could have 50 fish in front of you and only have two or three out of that 50 that are triggered into striking. That's why covering a lot of water is important when tossing lures. Pick off the aggressive ones and move on. Even in the big lake, most guys would be absolutely stunned to know how many fish see their lures, yet have no interest what so ever in them. Same thing with skein or lures--dozens of fish may have no interest at all in what you're tossing before the handful of aggressive fish end up picking it off.


----------



## steelie

Good Day,

Ha that is funny Freepop... maybe when I can fish again I can sneek you in as a guest!  

But, just wait for the browns to start running and use your skein then... I do not use it myself but have seen fantastic results! 

Steelie


----------



## PurePerfection

Alpha Buck said:


> And they distiguish a big ball of skein from a big ball of yarn by scent.


Huh? Than why would they hit the yarn? Rather anybody believes it or not sight has a lot to do with how a fish feeds or strikes


----------



## thousandcasts

And that's the crux of this debate. Personally, I think the perception of salmon "hitting" yarn is waaaaaaaay over blown. Sure, a king or two will pick up yarn on occassion, but for every 5% of yarn caught kings that are actual biters, the other 95% are either lined or hooked in the body. 

Again, fling what ya bring and have fun. A mouth hooked fish is a mouth hooked fish, ya know?


----------



## twohand

This is the exact reason kings are the ONLY fish I don't flyfish for. I know they can be caught on streamers, I've done it, but t-sticks are way more fun!








[/IMG]


----------



## thousandcasts

twohand said:


> This is the exact reason kings are the ONLY fish I don't flyfish for. I know they can be caught on streamers, I've done it, but t-sticks are way more fun!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]


Never thought I'd agree with a fly-guy  , but "amen!"


----------



## Oldgrandman

Nice pic twohand. I got one somewhere of a king that enhaled a bomer but cannot find it or I'd post it.
Guess the belief they do not hit isn't as wide spread as I thought. But there really are people who believe salmon will not hit in the river. Guess I just know more of them than most.


----------



## Dave Ash

How do you get those light weight plugs out there?


question 2

how do you get them to dive?


----------



## waterfoul

At the dam this week: 6 fish landed, 5 in the mouth (and I mean IN the mouth,, on the tongue or deeper, not on the outside of the jaw or in the face). The other one was a steelie I got last night that HIT my yarn/spawn combo the second it hit the water and, me being a little slow on the uptake, got him in the side, right at the pec fin. But I SAW this fish hit my bait. Whether it got IN her mouth or not is irrelivent... I missed the initial hit and set the hook in her side as she passed the bait.:help: 

Do salmon "bite" yarn or spawn? NO ONE here can really say. Only the fish knows for sure, and you can be sure they aren't talking.


----------



## Alpha Buck

Waterfoul said:


> Do salmon "bite" yarn or spawn? NO ONE here can really say. Only the fish knows for sure, and you can be sure they aren't talking.


Are you joking. I have thrown skein chunks into pools of salmon and watched them chase it down and inhale it. The fish usually end up spitting it out but they definately bite it. As for yarn, I'll let someone else experiment with that.

As for the cohos, I think anyone that has fished them with bait knows that they bite, maybe even yarn.


----------



## Gitr'Done

Alpha Buck said:


> Are you joking. I have thrown skein chunks into pools of salmon and watched them chase it down and inhale it. The fish usually end up spitting it out but they definately bite it. As for yarn, I'll let someone else experiment with that.
> 
> As for the cohos, I think anyone that has fished them with bait knows that they bite, maybe even yarn.


Nah, them fish don't bite. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I find it pretty amazing that your rod is bending over every other minute. Them must be some pretty amazing yarn balls your using under that bobber.:tdo12:


----------



## smoke73

Dave Ash said:


> How do you get those light weight plugs out there?
> 
> 
> question 2
> 
> how do you get them to dive?


Dave, knowing that you are a "pier rat", try throwing the Deep Husky Jerks in the channel. The baits don't always have to dive deep. I have had strikes in the beginning of my retrieve. As far as casting the lighter weight baits, have the wind at your back or add some weight.


----------



## ausable_steelhead

> Nah, them fish don't bite. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I find it pretty amazing that your rod is bending over every other minute. Them must be some pretty amazing yarn balls your using under that bobber


Actually they do bite skein:


----------



## riverman

You should of waited a little longer on the hook set there AS and got your skein back when it came out the other end!!!!


----------



## Gitr'Done

ausable_steelhead said:


> Actually they do bite skein:



Thanks for the lesson, but I knew that 20 years ago. Besides, it was a joke more toward the guys that claim they can outfish anybody with their yarnballs.


----------



## Fishndude

Thanks the the pic, Jon. I had that image in my head when I read about doubters that Kings will bite @ Skein. I have had so many Kings suck a gob of skein way down like that, so that I just cut my line off instead of trying to wrestle the hook out of their throat.


----------



## ausable_steelhead

> Thanks for the lesson, but I knew that 20 years ago. Besides, it was a joke more toward the guys that claim they can outfish anybody with their yarnballs.


My bad dude, the way you had it worded, I thought you were saying they don't bite skein.



> Thanks the the pic, Jon. I had that image in my head when I read about doubters that Kings will bite @ Skein. I have had so many Kings suck a gob of skein way down like that, so that I just cut my line off instead of trying to wrestle the hook out of their throat.


Oh yeah, they gut-shot skein and big bags more than they lip hook. Out on the north pier we've had some days on skein people wouldn't believe man!


----------



## Gitr'Done

ausable_steelhead said:


> My bad dude, the way you had it worded, I thought you were saying they don't bite skein.


NP, I'm glad some people are using a alternative from the famous yarn balls. Good pic, that is the way a fish should be caught.


----------



## waterfoul

8 of ten fish caught today hooked in the mouth. Most of those on yarn with a small piece of skein on with it. A few on just the yarn.


----------

