# American or English lab?



## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

Sounds good thanks for all the advice..I have a few people that are supposed to get back with me this week and I found a place in Indiana and Ohio I liked


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

black dog said:


> I wonder if the British vs American lab thing isn't overplayed.


Beaten to death. Almost as over played as the many subjective claims of the superiority of Brit Labs with no basis in fact. Some of them are very nice dogs. It's just harder to know that without real performance track records.

How many decades have duck hunters been claiming "My dog's better than your dog?" That's why competitive field sports came about for gundogs.

EvanG


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## Black Angus (Dec 26, 2009)

Check out http://huntersrosekennel.homestead.com/litters.html The Viper Dixie Litter will be small. Viper is 58# and Dixie can't be 50# Smaller athletic dogs that will be able to do it all.


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

Black Angus said:


> Check out http://huntersrosekennel.homestead.com/litters.html The Viper Dixie Litter will be small. Viper is 58# and Dixie can't be 50# Smaller athletic dogs that will be able to do it all.



I am in contact with them about the Sadie litter, thanks though


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

jafb76 said:


> I am in contact with them about the Sadie litter, thanks though


Do as you like. But I suggest you think this through a bit more. All those litters are well over priced. Feel free to contact me via PM if you want to know why I say these things.

In the meantime, take a look at this example of what's available with real performance credentials. https://www.facebook.com/groups/157388504408560/339511086196300/?notif_t=group_activity

EvanG


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## JYDOG (Aug 9, 2002)

EvanG said:


> Do as you like. But I suggest you think this through a bit more. All those litters are well over priced. Feel free to contact me via PM if you want to know why I say these things.
> 
> In the meantime, take a look at this example of what's available with real performance credentials. https://www.facebook.com/groups/157388504408560/339511086196300/?notif_t=group_activity
> 
> EvanG


The dam in that litter has no titles. FC Ricky has been around for a while, what's he thrown?


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS (Jan 13, 2006)

EvanG said:


> Do as you like. But I suggest you think this through a bit more. All those litters are well over priced. Feel free to contact me via PM if you want to know why I say these things.
> 
> In the meantime, take a look at this example of what's available with real performance credentials. https://www.facebook.com/groups/157388504408560/339511086196300/?notif_t=group_activity
> 
> EvanG


Why do you say these things Evan?
Maybe you don t recall training with the HRK dogs in Wisconsin a few years ago. 
The technical water at horicon marsh.
The dad with his sons.
Speak your mind bud because as I recall it wasn't the HRK dogs that struggled on the setup( your set up) nor any of the tests that weekend including the long bird on the land series . How'd you do that day?
Let me tell you what I came away with ... You are overrated, way overrated.
I ll always step to the line and back up my **** talk.
Dixie don't need titles she has the goods.


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Why do you say these things Evan?


Because they are true. And it serves no one to inflate the market value of breedings with so little to recommend them.


HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Maybe you don t recall training with the HRK dogs in Wisconsin a few years ago.
> The technical water at horicon marsh.


I remember very little about them. I see and evaluate many dogs. I recall many of them cheating, but that's about it.


HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> How'd you do that day?


As I recall, my friend's dog did poorly on one mark...the middle one I believe.


HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Let me tell you what I came away with ... You are overrated, way overrated.
> I ll always step to the line and back up my **** talk.
> Dixie don't need titles she has the goods.


I'm glad you got that off your chest. It appears you came away with what you wanted. I don't recall "Dixie". I imagine she's a nice dog. Without any performance credentials, however, that's all a person can do - imagine. I hope your situation suites you. Meantime we trained the 2013 high point Amateur All-age dog in the nation, and many others. Those kind of achievements are not subjective. As I recall, he had a day when he had a bad bird on one set up or another. But that didn't keep him from 9 All-age wins, including 3 Double Headers.

http://www.evan-graham.net/Blank.html and http://www.evan-graham.net/Testimonials---Endorsements.html will provide you with clearer and more accurate information to make a real assessment of me and of my methods. If, of course, you have already decided to make such an assessment with such limited data, you will do that in spite of the facts, rather than because of them.

EvanG


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS (Jan 13, 2006)

Evan, 

Here's what I recall.
You name dropped yourself when we introduced ourselfs to each other.
I already knew who you were.
I'm Evan, Evan Grahman you said trying to be just as impressed with yourself in person as you are on the forums.
I turned my back and chuckled.
Show me your dogs and I ll be impressed is what I thought next.
You did I wasn't.

You set up your dogs to fail and they did and funny thing is this gun dog trainer knew it would happen.
My seasoned dogs looked sharper then yours which I'm pretty sure you were running finished but I could be wrong.
It's a memory that I'll enjoy for the rest of my dog career I choose wisely those I look up to and you aren't on my list.


Our dogs are hunting dogs and they will so just that and you will never convince this hunter and dog trainer that all those trial dogs belong in a duck boat, mutt hutt or on an upland hunt.


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Evan,
> 
> Here's what I recall.
> You name dropped yourself when we introduced ourselfs to each other.
> ...


It seems you don't get out much. It's customary to introduce yourself by name. You appear to have construed manners to be arrogance. You also have made it obvious that facts cannot sway you from being a jackass. The truth never was important to you, was it?


HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> I turned my back and chuckled.


Classy.


HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Show me your dogs and I ll be impressed is what I thought next.
> You did I wasn't.


I won't be losing any sleep because _you_ weren't impressed.


HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> My seasoned dogs looked sharper then yours which I'm pretty sure you were running finished but I could be wrong.


Yes, you could be wrong. You've been wrong on all counts so far. Why not stay the course?


HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Our dogs are hunting dogs and they will so just that and you will never convince this hunter and dog trainer that all those trial dogs belong in a duck boat, mutt hutt or on an upland hunt.


No one will convince you of anything. You're the sort of guy who is convinced of what he wants to be convinced of, regardless of what the facts are. Good luck in the dark.

EvanG


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS (Jan 13, 2006)

Your reputation precedes you, hence the chuckle.(should have been more clear)
Dogs convince me and so do people just as you did that day. I was actually excited about training with such an affluent member of our dog society so don't say my mind was closed because it wasn't, I simply walked away less then impressed but also after the conclusion of the entire weekend felt real good about our overpriced upland dogs retriever ability.

Dogs keep me in the light, yes some people often make me want to stay in the dark but the good ones aren t hard to find if you keep your eyes open and I have found more then enough of those around. ( I learned long ago they aren't found pounding on keyboards but working in the field)They are often quite and let the dogs do the talking for them.
No disrespect either Mr Graham you are a very skilled man when it comes to putting words to ink and communicating so people understand.
However...
When it comes to my dogs it is you who is in the dark(I. E ignorant)..are you? hmmmm...what experiences with HRK dogs brought you into this thread in the first place?
I mean you didn't recall training with me right?
Doesn't this make you the ignorant one.
Or just a pompous ass hole.
Alright I'm done quote away.

On topic
if you only want a duck dog there is probably choices out there at a more affordable price but if you want an dog who can handle hunting ducks and upland birds at a high level then you are looking in the right spot.


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## Firefighter (Feb 14, 2007)

Well...


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## michiganoutdoorsman (Dec 29, 2010)

Firefighter said:


> Well...



That exact thought came to my mind, that came out of nowhere!


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

michiganoutdoorsman said:


> That exact thought came to my mind, that came out of nowhere!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


And, sadly, provided the OP with nothing useful.

EvanG


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## deezel (Jun 3, 2010)

EvanG said:


> And, sadly, provided the OP with nothing useful.
> 
> EvanG


EvanG, as the saying goes "it takes to to Tango" and you sir were part of this dance so don't play the innocent card here. 

Let's also not forget that your baseless and unfounded criticism as the acting "puppy market police" of our puppy prices and dog's performance credentials are what brought someone to defend what represents hard work, dedication, passion and integrity at a level you seem to have forgotten or don't want to recognize. 

The unfortunate part is your lack of professionalism given you stature in this dog community to take it upon yourself to publicly criticize someone's goods/services without any basis and then proceed to try and ridicule them/mock them/sarcastically discredit them for trying to defend their reputation and criticizing you in the process. 

You clearly have yourself on a pedestal in this debate (maybe otherwise, I don't know you though) with your condescending sarcastic responses, links to your fancy professional website and your deflecting of responsibility being involved.

Go about your business lurking around on MSF from out there in MO giving your opinions and advise on training all you want but keep your baseless opinions of others products/services to yourself as noone should fault another for defending their reputation when criticized by someone like you as you originally did in this thread 

*the OP did get useful and honest information above, you seem to have failed in recognizing that:
if you only want a duck dog there is probably choices out there at a more affordable price but if you want an dog who can handle hunting ducks and upland birds at a high level then you are looking in the right spot.*

*To the OP sorry for all that but EvanG is out of line and providing you with baseless opinions and we deserve the right to defend our hard work, dedication, passion and love for what we do.*


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

It's cool, just two people passionate about what they do


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## deezel (Jun 3, 2010)

jafb76 said:


> It's cool, just two people passionate about what they do


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## RClark1985 (May 22, 2012)

We have both. The American labs are higher energy and faster. The English are beautiful looking dogs, and are still pretty big because of how muscular they are. Our dogs hunt really well. From my perspective, the quality of the dog depends on the breeding history and what you put into training and caring for it.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

i love dog training/litter/hrc threads. free entertainment. now if we can just get a "chessie or lab, which is better duck dog" thread going.


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i love dog training/litter/hrc threads. free entertainment. now if we can just get a "chessie or lab, which is better duck dog" thread going.


Quick, run for the exits!!!

EvanG


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i love dog training/litter/hrc threads. free entertainment. now if we can just get a "chessie or lab, which is better duck dog" thread going.


I'd call fowl (yes bad pun intended) if you added tractor tire chasing to the lab vs chessie contest.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

yesterday i watched my dads chessie sit in a mud hole behind the barn...bark, growl and dig for about 3 hours. I betcha your labs wouldn't last 5 minutes with a mud hole like that.


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## deezel (Jun 3, 2010)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yesterday i watched my dads chessie sit in a mud hole behind the barn...bark, growl and dig for about 3 hours. I betcha your labs wouldn't last 5 minutes with a mud hole like that.


Way to dirty for my labs.... :lol:
I watched my lab lay on the couch, balls in the air and not make a noise for 3 hours though! Does that count for anything!?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

deezel said:


> Way to dirty for my labs.... :lol:
> I watched my lab lay on the couch, balls in the air and not make a noise for 3 hours though! Does that count for anything!?


sad thing is i have lab potato too...he does the exact same thing...matter fact mine is CPS/EFL certified as well



CPS: Couch Potato Specialist
EFL: Expert Fart Launcher


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## Kingseed (Dec 12, 2012)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yesterday i watched my dads chessie sit in a mud hole behind the barn...bark, growl and dig for about 3 hours. I betcha your labs wouldn't last 5 minutes with a mud hole like that.


That is awesome!!!!! I always wanted a dog that would bark and growl and dig in the mud for 3 hours. Where did he get that dog? I'm in sing me up.


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

Finally found a pup. She's a British lab from proven parents.. Get her in mid September ,pics will be up soon


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

jafb76 said:


> Finally found a pup. She's a British lab from proven parents.. Get her in mid September ,pics will be up soon


Great! Proven how? Just curious.

EvanG


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## jabelism (Oct 29, 2011)

Cool! Good luck. It's a lot of work at first but it gets easier.


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## BIRD BARREL (Aug 14, 2010)

Is tiger the father if so he is good dog I know he welped a litter with four blacks and two yellow s. 

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## BIRD BARREL (Aug 14, 2010)

I get that chessie look all the time at are club .those guys love to say when I come to line oh isn't he a nice chocolate. Then I say when you put up your dog Nov mine can retrieve the ducks you shoot. 


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

BIRD BARREL said:


> I get that chessie look all the time at are club .those guys love to say when I come to line oh isn't he a nice chocolate. Then I say when you put up your dog Nov mine can retrieve the ducks you shoot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


i don't use a winch in november, i tie the boat to my chessie...


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## DUCK LAB JAKE (Mar 6, 2004)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yesterday i watched my dads chessie sit in a mud hole behind the barn...bark, growl and dig for about 3 hours. I betcha your labs wouldn't last 5 minutes with a mud hole like that.



No they have brains


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

DUCK LAB JAKE said:


> No they have brains
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


i know jake, your sarcasm filter is broken. its ok.


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

EvanG said:


> Great! Proven how? Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> EvanG



Female is from a line that a couple my wife's cousin knows has been breeding for 20 years. They produce great hunting dogs. I have hunted with a few dogs from that line. They hunt her in Iowa, the Dakotas, Nebraska, as well as here in Michigan. She is a great duck dog and also flushes. Male is out of duck hill kennels also a great hunter. Both British labs, live indoors with family and kids, and both are between 50 to 60 lbs. EVERYTHING I wanted in a lab. Not sure if they have field trial titles or anything and don't really care. Both dogs have All health clearances. It also didn't hurt that it was a great price.


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

I hope it turns out well for you. 

EvanG


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

EvanG said:


> I hope it turns out well for you.
> 
> 
> 
> EvanG



If she is anything like the dogs I've hunted with, she will be more than fine


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

I hope it's satisfactory. That is the real "If" all dog buyers are left to satisfy. Only the buyer decides what standards a pup must live up to, and then make his or her most honest assessment of the parents in a breeding really offer empirical evidence of the level of quality you're willing to live with for the next 12 years, or so.

If the pup turns out to be just an average, run of the mill Gundog, that is only a problem if you hold higher standards for a dog. If you don't require a lot, those standards will be easily met. The pup's owner is ultimately the only one who needs to decide that.

EvanG


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

Exactly


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

4 weeks old pick her up in a month


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

jafb76 said:


> Looking to get a lab. I mostly field hunt geese. I do a few duck hunting trips up north in the swamps, and maybe a few times a year I'll duck hunt lake st. Clair. I also have two kids that are both under 3 so that plays into the equation. We are looking for a smaller lab so I was thinking English, but does anyone know a breeder that breeds smaller american labs? Or can recommend a good English breeder. I was also thinking about using the dog for pheasant hunting. Any suggestions would be appreciated


I just dealt with this issue last year. I didn't really run into the question as to whether or not to go with an English or American lab, but more so picking a breeder. The process I went through to pick a breeder, and the literature I've read in preparing to train my lab, however, helped me figure out the best advice for a hunter looking for a lab, and that's simply FIND A GREAT BREEDER : ) 

First, as a few others have mentioned here, the English/American size issue is a myth IMO. Regardless of what Americans in the show circuit will tell you, both English and American show circuits, are unfortunately, for the most part, judged by English standards. My mom is a vet and works tons of dog shows, and is totally perplexed by why the dog community finds it so important to have their breed standards judged by the British (perhaps it's just their voices, who knows). The English standards gives you the more blocky head and stubby body. I think that's certainly cute, but it makes you wonder whether that impedes their physical abilities. But that doesn't mean that all breeders who have built a breeding program around "English" dogs can't produce excellent hunting stock. Richard Wolters (whose books are arguably gospel in the hunting dog training world) dedicates a portion of his book "Game Dog" on this very topic of the English vis-a-vis American standard, and observes that British judges simply don't know what American hunters need, not only because there are so few of them, but also because their hunting needs are different, and Wolters opines that the best thing an American hunter can do is seek out a dog from a breeder who breeds good hunting/field stock. That can certainly come from either English or American breeders. Finding a reputable breeder used to be a daunting task, but now, with the internet and forums, it is much easier to get information and testimonials on breeders.

One of the best examples of the development of the American lab for American hunters can be shown by the fact that many American lab breeders are successfully breeding labs that instinctively point just like pointing breeds (which answers your question as to using a lab upland). If you want a great lab like this, locally in Michigan, contact Craig Novotney at the Huntsman, in Dryden. (Not to say there aren't other great breeders around here, I'm just noting the one I know and have experience with). His labs readily point. I know several guys who have dogs from him, and they are amazing dogs, and Craig is a great guy and amazing trainer. The only reason my new pup isn't from Craig is because he did not have any litters upcoming that are factored for yellow, and I really have had my eyes set on a yellow. I ended up being referred to Sauk River Labs out in Minnesota (owned by David Mork, who is a great guy, and keeps an amazing facility and seems to run a great program).

I strongly recommend picking up Richard Wolters' book "Game Dog". You'll want something like it when you're training your dog, and you can read his chapters about picking a dog now, before you buy a dog, and it might help better understand lab breeding and picking out a good lab. 

Best of luck!


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

Oh darn, I didn't notice that you had already picked out the breeder, should have paid more attention to the thread. Congrats man, cute pup! I bet you can't wait to get the training started!


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

Thanks. I bought the sound beginnings DVD and am looking to possibly join a retriever club. I'll post a few more pics when I get her in September


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

jafb76 said:


> Thanks. I bought the sound beginnings DVD and am looking to possibly join a retriever club. I'll post a few more pics when I get her in September


Would you mind letting me know what you think about that sound beginnings DVD? I've found Richard Wolters' book to be really great, but I wouldn't mind supplementing it with something I can actually watch on my TV. I want my old lady to understand some of the training, and I'm not going to be able to get her to read Wolters' book, but might be able to coax her into watching a video


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

Lamarsh said:


> Would you mind letting me know what you think about that sound beginnings DVD? I've found Richard Wolters' book to be really great, but I wouldn't mind supplementing it with something I can actually watch on my TV. I want my old lady to understand some of the training, and I'm not going to be able to get her to read Wolters' book, but might be able to coax her into watching a video


Let me be direct. I hope you don't mind my honesty. If you found a Richard Wolters book to be "really great", you will absolutely LOVE anything modern and sequential! Wolters was far more a writer than a trainer. There are several top notch programs on the market now that eclipse those old books. Pretty blunt I know. I suppose that's one of the things that has come with over 36 years of experience as a pro.






EvanG


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

EvanG said:


> Let me be direct. I hope you don't mind my honesty. If you found a Richard Wolters book to be "really great", you will absolutely LOVE anything modern and sequential! Wolters was far more a writer than a trainer. There are several top notch programs on the market now that eclipse those old books. Pretty blunt I know. I suppose that's one of the things that has come with over 36 years of experience as a pro.
> 
> Introduction to Feathers with Evan Graham - YouTube
> 
> EvanG


EvanG, thank you, I certainly appreciate your honesty. That's what I'm looking for. I'm relatively new to waterfowling, and I joined this forum specifically for the honest knowledge of more experienced hunters. I do think Wolters' books are great, but they're no doubt old. I picked Game Dog up just because I needed to start somewhere, and his books had the most recognition as far as my research went online. I assumed programs have popped up since his books were written that date his books. That's why I'm looking for something to supplement his books with. Any recommendations beyond the YouTube vids? ..... Although I do prefer the YouTube vids, free is good, and I have Chromcast so I can watch them on my TV.

Thanks again.


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

I know this almost seems like a silly question, but do you want the best? By that I mean the most detailed, easiest to understand and follow, that will provide the best field performance, and give you a dog that is easiest to maintain over his career?

EvanG


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

EvanG said:


> I know this almost seems like a silly question, but do you want the best? By that I mean the most detailed, easiest to understand and follow, that will provide the best field performance, and give you a dog that is easiest to maintain over his career?
> 
> EvanG


EvanG, you said it, that is a silly question--of course I want the best :lol:


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

Lamarsh said:


> EvanG, you said it, that is a silly question--of course I want the best :lol:


Let me first say that "Best" isn't always the "Most". The Smartwork system is the best, especially for newer trainers, or for trainers who may not have trained to a high level before. The reason is the amount of detail in the instruction, and the fact that it's easy to understand. It is a multimedia course; text & video.

When I say you don't automatically need the entire program I'm referring to some of the special instruction offered for those who run their dogs in tests and trials, or who simply are discriminating dog owners who want the most from their dogs. We offer course material that simply is not available elsewhere, like Definitive Casting, Walking Baseball, and so on.

What are your goals?

EvanG


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## cronkdre (Sep 11, 2012)

Lamarsh... I am training my first lab who is now 2, and maybe I can give you a perspective from someone who was recently in a similar situation as you. Keep in mind I had zero experience training a dog before I got my pup. 

First do you research, I also go the wolters material, but after some research realized just because it's cheap and a lot of people have experience on it does not mean it's the best. I decided to go with Jackie mertens sounds beginnings for the puppy training. It seems to be a general consensus that it is a very solid starting DVD. 

I used that up until about 4-5 months, then it was time to transition into the real hunting training. I bought the Lardy material, and evan Graham's smart works series. I actually collar conditioned my dog based on Lardys total E collar training DVD, but I soon switched to smart works because as a new trainer, the material was easy to follow and had a logical progression that made sense to me (also evan is easily accessible on many forums and is very willing to help with any questions you may have, which he did for me a few times). 

Although I thought the training was going very well, and it's was in terms of the overall foundation of training, there were a few small issues that I didn't even know where issues that needed to be addressed. The MOST helpful part of training was running into a couple guys at a local field that were in a retriever club who had trained dogs to MAster hunter levels. They took me under there wing and I have been going to some hunt club training days and train with these guys a few times a week. They saw and taught me how to correct the little things that I/pup were doing that I didn't even know could cause problems down the line. This has been invaluable as they see the dog work in person numerous times a week, and they know the proper fixes to issues that may not be addressed in a DVD or book. 

Sorry for the long post, but I'm just giving you advice that I wish I had when I was just starting. My biggest recommendation is find a retriever club and get hand on advice. Next is to do a ton of research and regardless of the money get on a program that you understand and can follow (you could buy multiple sets of training DVDs for less than the cost of sending the dog to a pro for a month, and they will last forever).


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## cronkdre (Sep 11, 2012)

EvanG said:


> Let me first say that "Best" isn't always the "Most". The Smartwork system is the best, especially for newer trainers, or for trainers who may not have trained to a high level before. The reason is the amount of detail in the instruction, and the fact that it's easy to understand. It is a multimedia course; text & video.
> 
> When I say you don't automatically need the entire program I'm referring to some of the special instruction offered for those who run their dogs in tests and trials, or who simply are discriminating dog owners who want the most from their dogs. We offer course material that simply is not available elsewhere, like Definitive Casting, Walking Baseball, and so on.
> 
> ...


Evan, I have a lot of respect for you as a trainer and am a true believer of your training program which is what I used for my dog, but just claiming your program is without a doubt the "best" kind of makes you sound like a car salesman. 

I'm sure every pro thinks there program is the best, or they wouldn't using the system they are using. Although I agree with you, that your program is easy to follow and has good detail, there are thousands of other new trainers that use other programs and find them easy to follow as well. It's just a matter of what fits the new trainers style and goals the best. 

Again, I am a fan of your program and will use it on my next dog, it just kind of sounds like you're on here just to sell your program based on that post. Sometimes it's better to let other people do the talking for you. :coolgleam


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

cronkdre said:


> Evan, I have a lot of respect for you as a trainer and am a true believer of your training program which is what I used for my dog, but just claiming your program is without a doubt the "best" kind of makes you sound like a car salesman.


Or someone who has seen their competition and is answering a question honestly. I was asked, and stand ready to provide rationale for anything I say. I'm sure you realize that I understand the inherent risks of making such statements. But if I said some other program was better I would be lying. I'll take that risk any day.


cronkdre said:


> I'm sure every pro thinks there program is the best, or they wouldn't using the system they are using.


Otherwise they would be less than honest.


cronkdre said:


> Again, I am a fan of your program and will use it on my next dog, it just kind of sounds like you're on here just to sell your program based on that post. Sometimes it's better to let other people do the talking for you. :coolgleam


That is often the case. If someone chooses to believe I'm only here on the forum to sell goods they are not paying attention to my participation. Of the several credible pros who offer a program on the market I'm the only one who spends time online helping people succeed, whether or not they use my program. If you know of another I would be interested to know where they are. I understand fully that my efforts may be misconstrued. Thanks for your support.

EvanG


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## cronkdre (Sep 11, 2012)

EvanG said:


> Of the several credible pros who offer a program on the market I'm the only one who spends time online helping people succeed, whether or not they use my program. If you know of another I would be interested to know where they are. I understand fully that my efforts may be misconstrued. Thanks for your support.
> 
> EvanG


Fair enough, I certainly do not see other pros as active on the forums as you are. To be honest (as I said in one of my prior posts above) this is one of the main reasons I chose your program and have highly recommended it to 3 good friends who just got dogs in the last year. 

I'm actually surprised more pros don't take the same approach. Have a good season and I'll be sure to let you know when I have more questions haha.


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

Anytime buddy!

EvanG


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

Lamarsh said:


> EvanG, you said it, that is a silly question--of course I want the best :lol:


So, will you strictly hunt, or possibly do some testing or even trialing?

EvanG


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

Mine will just be hunting . I'm not going to FF or e-collar train. Would it still be beneficial to use your DVDs ? And I'm not against e-collars , my
Little Boston terrier wears one so I don't want to get into that argument with anyone


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

jafb76 said:


> Mine will just be hunting . I'm not going to FF or e-collar train. Would it still be beneficial to use your DVDs ?


I have to ask what, for me at least, is an obvious question. When limits do you have on how well trained this dog should be? What don't you want him to know? My method can certainly be employed without an e-collar. But any of the better methods are fairer for the dog, and more efficient for the trainer by properly using an e-collar. But I'm very interested in your point of view.

EvanG


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## jafb76 (Sep 8, 2008)

Basic obedience to begin with. Then ...come back to whistle ..whistle sit. Blind retrieves..your basic fetching..


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## EvanG (Jun 14, 2012)

Before investing in any program, book, or video, I strongly suggest going to a well established pro...and I mean a good one. Spend some time and see how those seemingly simple tasks are built. It just makes sense that you do that in order to have a reasonable set of expectations of any program.

Good luck.

EvanG


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

cronkdre said:


> Lamarsh... I am training my first lab who is now 2, and maybe I can give you a perspective from someone who was recently in a similar situation as you. Keep in mind I had zero experience training a dog before I got my pup.
> 
> First do you research, I also go the wolters material, but after some research realized just because it's cheap and a lot of people have experience on it does not mean it's the best. I decided to go with Jackie mertens sounds beginnings for the puppy training. It seems to be a general consensus that it is a very solid starting DVD.
> 
> ...


Thanks man, I certainly appreciate your advice. I live in Royal Oak, not too far from you--do you know of any good retriever clubs around here? I'm also training my dog for upland, so I'm hoping I can find a club that has a group who is training for both upland and waterfowl.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

EvanG said:


> Let me first say that "Best" isn't always the "Most". The Smartwork system is the best, especially for newer trainers, or for trainers who may not have trained to a high level before. The reason is the amount of detail in the instruction, and the fact that it's easy to understand. It is a multimedia course; text & video.
> 
> When I say you don't automatically need the entire program I'm referring to some of the special instruction offered for those who run their dogs in tests and trials, or who simply are discriminating dog owners who want the most from their dogs. We offer course material that simply is not available elsewhere, like Definitive Casting, Walking Baseball, and so on.
> 
> ...


EvanG, thanks a ton. Your videos look great. Do they deal with upland training at all? I couldn't tell. Also, I am planning on sending my pup away for a month of training with a professional in the spring. Is it still worth going through your course before doing that? I'm guessing it's possible I may not even need to send her away in the spring, but I can keep it as a possibility in case my novice training isn't working how I'd like it to. 

Let me know about the upland aspect. I'm interested in your product. It means something to me that you have a presence on this forum. 

Thanks again.


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