# Safer rifle choices for small properties.



## Daddy (Jan 22, 2019)

Each hunting season we are noticing more owners of smaller properties surrounding my 120 acres. This seems more and more common as hunters move north to get their slice of heaven. When I was young my grandparents owned this property -- farm and timber. Back in the day the maximum number allowed was three hunters on the property at once. The largest rifle allowed would be a smaller thirty caliber [30-30]. Rifles like a 30-06 were absolutely forbidden unless the individual was hunting alone with no other hunters.

Last year a new landowner next to us bought a 20 acre piece. Last year he hunted three hunters at a time. The rifles of choice were 30-06 or similar power rifles. Now I have some sympathy with sportsman wanting to buy their own land. Candidly it is getting hard to afford a larger piece and larger pieces are getting more difficult to find. But sportsman sort of seem to think that they have found a solution by buying these smaller pieces next to the larger landowners. 

In an effort to be at least somewhat understanding I think all hunters should consider the logical safe range for the type of rifle they select on the size of the property they are hunting. Of course the topography of the land figures into calculating a logical safe caliber. One should also consider whether there are open fields or thick timber to slow down any round.

But a 20 acre property is typically 220 yards wide by 440 yards long. In the case of my neighbor there is a home on the property. The property is about half timber and half open field. Once should consider that a typical rifle similar to a 30.06 has a lethal range exceeding 500 yards. However the round in this rifle drops about two foot at roughly 400 yards. Therefore one must consider the placement of the hunter in context to the next hunters location and that which might impede the bullet down range. In an open field it is certainly not safe to shoot from side to side across the narrower portion of 20 acres. In fact it is hardly safe to shoot a 30.06 from side to side on 40 acres. It is my opinion that the neighbor we have that hunts three big gun hunters on 20 acres is not conducting a safe hunt. 

Obviously these hunters are not just endangering their own hunt. We share 220 yards of wire and even more concerning is that hunting is much better on our side of the fence. In their estimation the best placement of their blinds is almost right on the fence line. They also have no issue with shooting deer very close to the property line. That means errant rounds often make their way many yards into our property. In these situation one would hope to be able to communicate peacefully with other hunting properties. Unfortunately their attitude and unfortunately their actual words were that we have a large property and should be willing to move inward to increase the safety buffer.

On our side of the fence we still maintain or 30-30 caliber or similar rule. Our goal is to limit lethal shooting to a distance of about 200 yards as much as we can. 

I know this has been a long post but I felt the discussion needed a backstory based on an actual case. I own plenty of very high powered rifles and also lesser calibers. I love hunting and want others to have good hunting experiences. Most of all I think all hunters should seek as safe a hunt as possible. I firmly believe that if we don't all use our heads and match our rifle choices to the land we are hunting and the distance to other hunters.

If we don't self police the day will come when the government will limit us to shotguns like they have in southern Michigan. Very few of us hunt in locations where our average deer kill is beyond 200 yards.


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## Charles Hooke (Dec 29, 2018)

Unfortunately more than a few of us are having this issue. My dad had a new neighbor with 1 acre shoot a deer on my dad's property three years ago. The line of fire was directly across a field almost directly toward my dad's home about 250 yards away. 

The property all around is is being chopped up by new owners [sportsman]. All along our property lines there are hunting blinds less than three feet off the fence. Worse yet the windows of the blinds almost always include one's that look into our property.

There probably needs to be a new law that establishes a distance one can build a blind from one's own property line. No one needs to build their blind in a manner that encourages shooting into other properties. 

We build our blinds back into the property. We don't want to be shooting our neighbors by accident. I certainly don't want to hunt in a blind right on a property line in any case. Hunters unfamiliar with a property have no way of knowing what lies behind the thicket where they see their game and how far they are from someone's property. Also too many hunters on any property and particularly small properties should be a concern.

To Blood's point the higher density of careless hunters will get dangerous and my guess we will see the day when shot guns will be required. I sure do not look forward to that day!


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Don't kid yourself that shotguns are safe ,or the answer. 
A one oz. slug can cut brush like a buzz saw. And carry energy beyond a generous sapling after passing through...

I own a smaller than 20 acre parcel. 
A 25-06 gets the nod for serious work and lessor range guns for other.
It is uphill and over a quarter mile from a farm I can see from my usual post. 
That does not mean fire away at it.

The "sweet spot" for deer is a corner of the neighbors on one side and my's property.
We could all hunt it , but I would be across open ground in their line of fire if they want to shoot in their field at deer leaving/approaching my property.
Not a safe , or considerate arrangement. We don't shoot at deer across the borders , but that does not mean a bullet can not cross a border.....
Also permission to track is freely given and has always been done with consulting me first , yet it is not expected to never happen without my being forewarned. (I don't demand it).

They are agreeable folk and if it was an issue of a site multiple parties want to hunt or a potential conflict with safety we might be able to work out a rotation.
My reaction is simply to not hunt that area when they are hunting. It works fine.
Far as I'm concerned they have seniority and I'll take their help they offer in reserve , vs feuding. Plenty of spots for me to sit without stepping on their toes.
And besides , by staying out of there when they are not there ; deer use the security of what is on my property there to hole up.

Another corner is similar but I stay out of it.(Too wet for me).
That neighbor does well. And I know where they prefer to be.
Leaves me two uncontested or obstructed by other hunters corners.
One of which works great watching into my site. The other needing work to use in time but is wind/breeze dependent usually.

All have lanes of fire with backgrounds considered. Hunting in a lane of fire would change that....Of course. By lane of fire I mean potential beyond a target.

Of greater concern are guns at a greater distance on other properties. Or , rather not knowing what they have for backgrounds.... Not something I lose any sleep over though.

No stray or unconsidered behind them bullets reported yet. Due to hunters being aware of who and where not to be shooting in general.


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## mjh4 (Feb 2, 2018)

44 mag lever gun.


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

[QUOTE="Daddy, post: 7162487, member: 120961"
...........
If we don't self police the day will come when the government will limit us to shotguns like they have in southern Michigan. ...........[/QUOTE]

Not familiar with current rules ?

L & O


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

This below max ONE person...

410 smooth bore!
After the guy that got shot last year everybody should wake up!

a guy down here in Southwest Michigan just got in trouble, he shot at and missed a buck with a 3006 illegally, the neighbor's house about a half a mile away has a bullet hole through the living room wall,fortunately it didn't hurt anyone.

somehow the police & the DNR tracked the guy down, figured out what property it came from and found the rifle in his house, I got the story third-hand but I guess it's not the first time for this gentleman!




bought a 20 acre piece. Last year he hunted three hunters



Daddy said:


> Each hunting season we are noticing more owners of smaller properties surrounding my 120 acres. This seems more and more common as hunters move north to get their slice of heaven. When I was young my grandparents owned this property -- farm and timber. Back in the day the maximum number allowed was three hunters on the property at once. The largest rifle allowed would be a smaller thirty caliber [30-30]. Rifles like a 30-06 were absolutely forbidden unless the individual was hunting alone with no other hunters.
> 
> Last year a new landowner next to us bought a 20 acre piece. Last year he hunted three hunters at a time. The rifles of choice were 30-06 or similar power rifles. Now I have some sympathy with sportsman wanting to buy their own land. Candidly it is getting hard to afford a larger piece and larger pieces are getting more difficult to find. But sportsman sort of seem to think that they have found a solution by buying these smaller pieces next to the larger landowners.
> 
> ...


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

.450 Bushmaster or .350


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## Charles Hooke (Dec 29, 2018)

As most of us realize the great majority of hunters are responsible. And for the record I own and do hunt with rifle much more powerful than even a 30.06 but I used that for reference because it is easily one of the most popular bigger rifles. I once worked on a military rifle range and even with big berms it was interesting to note how random rounds found their way well out of the anticipated area. Safety is a big concern in our camp.

I certainly understand that good hunting property is harder and harder to find. I encourage hunters to make sensible choices in their chosen hunting weapon. Then hunt in terrain favorable to everyone's safety. There are plenty of anti-hunting advocates out there that would love to find excuses to reduce our ability to hunt.


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

I agree that it is easier to be safe with shorter ranged firearms, but one shouldn't rely on them for safety. In other words thinking that you can take shots with a .30-30 that you would have to pass with a .30-'06 because the bullet will hit the ground before it hits something it shouldn't is unsafe.

The small parcel issue has always had me a little puzzled, because I've never had to deal with it. Other than the criminal cases where someone is trying to shoot deer that are on another's land, I would expect each property owner to be crowding their own downwind border to maximize the area they can hunt on their own property taking advantage of the wind. The stories that bubble up on this board seem to indicate that hunters are ignoring the wind.


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## Daddy (Jan 22, 2019)

Tilden Hunter said:


> I agree that it is easier to be safe with shorter ranged firearms, but one shouldn't rely on them for safety. In other words thinking that you can take shots with a .30-30 that you would have to pass with a .30-'06 because the bullet will hit the ground before it hits something it shouldn't is unsafe.
> 
> The small parcel issue has always had me a little puzzled, because I've never had to deal with it. Other than the criminal cases where someone is trying to shoot deer that are on another's land, I would expect each property owner to be crowding their own downwind border to maximize the area they can hunt on their own property taking advantage of the wind. The stories that bubble up on this board seem to indicate that hunters are ignoring the wind.


Totally true of course. Of course a 30-30 round typically drops 52 inches out 400 yards. The assumption is that at that distance one should quite safe and that is almost the width of a 40 acre piece. Remember that a 30.06 has only dropped 23 inches 400 yards out. It is our opinion that hunting from a slightly elevated blind increases the downward angle and thus the safety. Bit by bit we are building elevated blinds. Candidly we don't go too high up as we are old men...lol Our typical elevated brings the floor up about 5 feet. 

These new neighbors are what we call "flat landers". You all are probably pretty familiar with that term. I don't think they are the sharpest knives in the sheath...lol And you are correct that downwind is preferable. We have been hunting our properties so long that we pretty much know the runs but each year we scout carefully for scrapes. Scrapes tend to move around slightly and taking advantage of those sometimes means we have to hunt from a pop-up and do our best with the wind. Often I have a couple set ups covering the almost the same spot to work with wind changes. We are lucky to be hunting 120 acres. Sometimes it is just me hunting and that leaves lots of options.

By the way I am not a big fan of baiting. I like to have the deer follow their normal highways while I figure out the ambush points. Baiting changes the time of day they move and their paths. I understand that some people might never get a deer without baiting but baiting is illegal in much of our area anyway. Food plots however can keep them on the property.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

I take the mind set that the bullet never leaves my property. To do this I primarily hunt from tree stands and elevated blinds. I stopped hunting on the ground unless I am on a hill shooting down


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

It sounds like education vs legislation.

Maybe this NRA link will be helpful.
https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2016/11/22/gun-safety-ammunition-maximum-range/


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## brigeton (Feb 12, 2004)

I don't think caliber makes a difference. A .22 will go over a mile. I don't see a .30/30, .450 bushmaster or any caliber as being any safer than a .30-06 or more powerful. If the background isn't safe, it isn't safe.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Not all calibers are the same. Some will travel much further than others. Getting them to travel as far as possible is another story.

A nice chart

https://www.hunter-ed.com/washingto...r-Rifle-or-Handguns-Range/20105001_700046704/


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

If you really want short range, use 00 buckshot, use it within it's limitations, you will kill a deer without a problem and the shot won't travel nearly as far as a rifle.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Another interesting article.

https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2016/11/22/gun-safety-ammunition-maximum-range/


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Now this is cool. It's a calculator to determine the terminal distance a round will travel. The claim, in several sources, state that to achieve maximum terminal distance a bullet must be launched at 30 degrees above the horizontal.

Here is the link

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmdist-5.1.cgi


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## ErieH2O (Jan 24, 2018)

Keep hearing hunter numbers are down but want to know where? One thing for sure is that habitat has shrunk with the near elimination of CRP land and elimination of fence rows. 3 people on 20 acres with high powered rifles seems like a lot, would get more serious about fishing if that was only option.


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## Martin Looker (Jul 16, 2015)

Maybe they should ban rifles on less than 20 acres then hopefully those wild bullets will stay on their own property.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

It's easy to keep your bullets where they belong.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

OP has been banned.


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## Rasputin (Jan 13, 2009)

Luv2hunteup said:


> OP has been banned.


How does someone with 19 posts get banned? THat was fast


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Rasputin said:


> How does someone with 19 posts get banned? THat was fast


Multi personality disorder?


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## Rasputin (Jan 13, 2009)

Ahh. I've tried pretty hard on occasion to at least get a warning, and I can't even get that done, then a rookie rolls in and BAM! Banned. Quite an accomplishment.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

You mean we are not going to be able to come up with a way to keep our bullets on our property now? GEE, I really was hoping for a solution.


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