# Clinton River Trout?



## 1siena

I have the generic pamphlet of the Clinton, and I have fished for steel at Yates all winter and spring, however, I would like to venture away from Paint Creek and explore the Clinton for trout. Could anyone point me in the right direction? I am not looking for holes, just starting points. I flyfish and practice catch and release. PM if you could spare some knowledge. 

Thanks.


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## DE82

All the info I can give you is fly fishing might not be the best way to get them away from paint creek. In fact where I fish for trout in the clinton most places you can't fly fish. Rapala's are great and under used, keep that in mind. Natrual colors, brown trout, rainbow trout, olive green muddler all are great. Don't rule out silver or gold either, and I like the countdown. - Bryon


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## jellybread

1siena said:


> Could anyone point me in the right direction? I am not looking for holes, just starting points. I flyfish and practice catch and release. PM if you could spare some knowledge.


No need to keep it a secret - I think that the Clinton would be better off if people publicized their success stories. I live near the Clinton and it is really a shame to see the trout die off (or seek shelter somewhere) when the main river temp gets toward 80 degrees (it pushed 70 degrees in April when the average healthy river was still below 50).

But on that note, I *just* walked down the Clinton River trail into the park in downtown Auburn Hills (Squirrel Court, not the new one) and was surprised to see several fish eating flies. At one point, I was describing to my wife where the fish would be *if* there were fish in the river when - lo and behold - a small mouth pierced the surface to take a fly.

My surprise was only surpassed by my pride (guilty, your honor).

We walked up river a bit and saw another fish under a tree taking flies aggressively.

If you do go to this park, the trout were just down from the Auburn Rd. overpass just upstream of the riffle (under the tree on the far side) while the other one was sitting in the pool at the confluence just downstream of the first island (not the one across from the fishing platform, which never seems to have fish).

Make sure that you get there before the water gets too hot. For posterity, today was very sunny.

Please report any findings! The recovery of this river depends on publicity.


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## jellybread

I also just remembered from my many trips down the trail that there are many big fish taken (some lunkers, presumably planted fish) just upstream of the Livernois-Avon intersection. I don't know if my bicycling schedule somehow aligned with the schedule of a couple of fisherman in this area, but they certainly didn't make it a secret that they were pulling these fish as they would carry them down the trail in their net in plain site - often.

Again, nothing to be seen after the river temp gets too high.


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## DE82

Posting specific spots is against the rules of the forum and that's what you did. I'd also like to add I REALLY disagree with YOUR opinion on what the Clinton River depends on or needs.


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## jellybread

DE82 said:


> Posting specific spots is against the rules of the forum and that's what you did.


I'd edit my post to make you happy but I am not allowed to edit (as a new user).



DE82 said:


> I'd also like to add I REALLY disagree with YOUR opinion on what the Clinton River depends on or needs.


I generally walk or bicycle the some section of the river 5x per week and I've _never_ even seen a hot-water (post May) fish that didn't coincide with an event on the Michigan DNR fish stocking database (n.e.v.e.r). It is no secret that any survivors in the river can only venture out of Paint and Galloway Creeks during the cold season.

Living so close to the river would allow me to benefit from "keeping it a secret" if it weren't in sad shape. But it is - and I'm sick of people thinking that it isn't. Go measure the temperature. Go turn over some rocks and look for invertebrate life. It quickly becomes apparent that this river will not support any significant trout population. Sure - I can go catch some stupid hatchery fish for a few days after the tanker dumps them into the river. But this is not fishing.

That sucks.

We are in need of significant repair work. Lawn pesticides need to be banned for anyone within spitting distance of the river - with significant fines for those who sacrifice river life so that their lawn can look nice (where's the fly hatch calendar for the Clinton?). We need to get rid of impervious surfaces - starting with the 130 acres of Silverdome parking lot - that discharge directly into the river (increasing the temperature and blowing out the life).

There's a lot more but I really don't see any of that happening so I won't waste my time outlining it. We've made a conscious decision to sacrifice this river and I don't think that it is coming back without a miracle.


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## DE82

jellybread said:


> I'd edit my post to make you happy but I am not allowed to edit (as a new user).
> 
> 
> 
> I generally walk or bicycle the some section of the river 5x per week and I've _never_ even seen a hot-water (post May) fish that didn't coincide with an event on the Michigan DNR fish stocking database (n.e.v.e.r). It is no secret that any survivors in the river can only venture out of Paint and Galloway Creeks during the cold season.
> 
> Living so close to the river would allow me to benefit from "keeping it a secret" if it weren't in sad shape. But it is - and I'm sick of people thinking that it isn't. Go measure the temperature. Go turn over some rocks and look for invertebrate life. It quickly becomes apparent that this river will not support any significant trout population. Sure - I can go catch some stupid hatchery fish for a few days after the tanker dumps them into the river. But this is not fishing.
> 
> That sucks.
> 
> We are in need of significant repair work. Lawn pesticides need to be banned for anyone within spitting distance of the river - with significant fines for those who sacrifice river life so that their lawn can look nice (where's the fly hatch calendar for the Clinton?). We need to get rid of impervious surfaces - starting with the 130 acres of Silverdome parking lot - that discharge directly into the river (increasing the temperature and blowing out the life).
> 
> There's a lot more but I really don't see any of that happening so I won't waste my time outlining it. We've made a conscious decision to sacrifice this river and I don't think that it is coming back without a miracle.


First of all it's not to make me happy, You broke the rules. Second of all you are WRONG as can be about how that river holds trout. I know people who have caught trout ALL year fishing that river, it's not as warm as you are acting or they wouldn't put trout in it to begin with. Third, I can personally attest to seeing big brown trout and rainbow trout in that river RIGHT NOW. Those fish aren't plants they're carry over fish and that steam DOES get some natural reproduction to it as well.


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## flockshot

the dnr did a an electric shocking survey on the upper clinton in auburn hills...found a suprising number of hold overs, some as old as 5 and 6 years..and pushing the 20 inch class, along with young of the year wild fish.....just an fyi.


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## stinger63

is that you are absolutely right about the silverdome parkinglot being a direct heat source of hot water when it rains into the clinton river.


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## flockshot

stinger63 said:


> is that you are absolutely right about the silverdome parkinglot being a direct heat source of hot water when it rains into the clinton river.


as do i. but the area they do the shock testing is a long way from paint creek, and galloway creek is cold , but no haven itself either....and the dnr doesnt stock the clinton past may anyways....so none of the other points stay real valid.


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## stinger63

Where is this? galloway creek.


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## jellybread

I think that we need to establish a few things here:

Most trout are known to have an upper incipient lethal temperature around 25 degrees Celcius (77 degrees Fahrenheit). For some good reading on this, do a search for "Summary of Technical Literature Examining the Physiological Effects of Temperature on Salmonids" since I can't seem to post a link.
Anyone with an accurate thermometer can actually measure the temperature of the river and see that, aside from the well-published Paint and Galloway Creeks and their confluence with the main branch, summer temperatures exceed this number by a wide margin. NOTE: I have not explored the north branch so this does not apply.
Electro-fishing prior to summer proves nothing about viability of the sections of the river that are prone to overheating.
Auburn Hills and Bass Pro Shops hold a kids fishing derby every June and plant some pretty big (12-14 inch) rainbow in the river. The Michigan DNR Fish Stock website reveals this. As a side note, this website also shows the Chinook plants from the "Salmon in the Classroom" program for elementary schools.
Draw your own conclusions but if you catch fish in a non "secret hole" in June, then it is likely from the derby. These fish will die if they don't hole up in the cold water. More fisherman would be ticked off about the state of this river if they carried a thermometer with them and measured the water temp.

And do make sure that you read the government report:

Summary of Technical Literature Examining the Physiological Effects of Temperature on Salmonids

(just plug it into a web search)... This paper has lots of great information on salmonids, including the smoltification process as it relates to temperature.

I'll go back to being a lurker now, since it is obvious that this website exists only to make money for the owners and not to provide useful information to people who might actually care about the rivers that they fish if the information was available to be shared.


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## DE82

jellybread said:


> I'll go back to being a lurker now, since it is obvious that this website exists only to make money for the owners and not to provide useful information to people who might actually care about the rivers that they fish if the information was available to be shared.


:lol: 


Oh and BTW the temp in that river isn't as warm as you are saying either, if it was there wouldn't be steelhead in that river RIGHT NOW. I've also been trout fishing for close to a decade and can tell a plant from a wild fish and according to our fisheries biologist. "More fish reproduce in the Clinton river than people think" That's right from an email he sent me when I sent him pics and told him of how well I've done in that river this year, he seams to agree that the three trout in my gallery are NOT planted fish too. For somebody who lives on that river you sure are as misinformed about it as you can be. I suggests you go back and talk to biologist on that river and people who trout fish that river all year and learn something rather than tell us that what that river needs is more people fishing it and this and that about how it gets too warm for trout. Fact of the matter is none of your points but one were valid and the silverdome parking lot run off does little damage to the WHOLE river. Not to mention everything you've put doesn't coincide with what the DNR says or the fisheries biologist say either. The river gets warm because in the summer months most of it is shallow and guess where the trout go? Into the deep holes, just like in just about every trout stream in this state in the summer months. - Bryon


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## ESOX

> I've also been trout fishing for close to a decade


Wow, almost a whole decade? :lol:


You really should consider typing less and reading more.


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## jellybread

DE82 said:


> Oh and BTW the temp in that river isn't as warm as you are saying either, if it was there wouldn't be steelhead in that river RIGHT NOW.


So you didn't read point #3 then? Steelhead and Salmon are a very good synthetic fish for a sterile river: you plant them after smoltification and they run out to sea where they have a better chance at survival because the habitat there will indeed support them.

As a side note, I would actually like to see the Clinton loaded with Chinook, since they have the best chance of becoming a naturally reproducing species (they smolt in just 9 months after egg fertilization and a good portion of the river will support them naturally during this time frame from fall to spring). We would probably need a ladder at Yates but this would produce a great migration through St. Clair. If they ever did this, I'd like to see the fishing limited to non-adults or protected entirely.



DE82 said:


> I've also been trout fishing for close to a decade and can tell a plant from a wild fish and according to our fisheries biologist. "More fish reproduce in the Clinton river than people think" That's right from an email he sent me when I sent him pics and told him of how well I've done in that river this year, he seams to agree that the three trout in my gallery are NOT planted fish too.


With my hypothesis, the fish are indeed free to reproduce naturally in the safe, cold water areas. These same fish are also free to roam the the entire river before (e.g. - right now) and after the temperature gets too high in the summer. So yes - I certainly believe that you've potentially caught naturally reproduced fish outside of these areas at this point in the year.

But my entire point is that the window between the opener and overheat is very small because the river is in such poor condition. Once we get into the overheated mode, the fish all hole up in the known cold water areas (HINT: the park on Squirrel Court is not one of these "holes"). Taking them at this point is shooting fish in a barrel - nearly quite literally.

If this river was better cared for, we would see more summer habitat. This is the goal of my correspondence here. Just because there are a few fragile habitats remaining doesn't mean that the overall health of the river should be considered good, because it isn't.



DE82 said:


> The river gets warm because in the summer months most of it is shallow and guess where the trout go? Into the deep holes, just like in just about every trout stream in this state in the summer months. - Bryon


And most of it is shallow because of the aforementioned abuse. 130 acres of Silverdome parking lot runoff (not to mention the entire City of Pontiac) BLOWS OUT the river. Your fisheries biologist won't help you understand "channel morphology" as it relates to erosion because he is not a hydrologist - he's a biologist. Find yourself a hydrologist friend or do another search for "channel morphology erosion" and brush up on it. The river is shallow in most places BECAUSE we have abused it. But even if erosion hadn't flattened out the river, you still wouldn't find any living, naturally reproducing trout in 80-90 degree summer waters.

As a side note, erosive problems are hurting most of our rivers - not just the Clinton - just not as fast (i.e. - we're killing them slightly less quickly).

Please buy a thermometer and use it often. A healthy river in Michigan will have pockets of mid 40 degree (F) water on even the hottest day of the year. I actually made a point to find the coldest point in a certain, healthy river on one 90 degree day: 44 degrees F! You won't get close to this on the Clinton (even on any of the "secret" holes).

Again: my entire point is geared at the summer high temperature season. You will most certainly find that the greater river will support life
during the non-summer months. But there is limited space for the fish at the Clinton Coldwater Inn. It can only facilitate a small population of naturally-reproducing and multiple-year holdover fish. Targeting these fish in the summer is unethical, IMHO.

Good luck in your thermometer shopping!


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## DE82

ESOX said:


> Wow, almost a whole decade? :lol:
> 
> 
> You really should consider typing less and reading more.


 I know because I haven't been fishing as much as some other people than I MUST not know what I'm talking about right?  Yep typical response. 



jellybread said:


> So you didn't read point #3 then? Steelhead and Salmon are a very good synthetic fish for a sterile river: you plant them after smoltification and they run out to sea where they have a better chance at survival because the habitat there will indeed support them.


Steelhead move out of the river and go back to the lake at a certain temp, they come in to spawn and then return to the lake, it's pretty straight forward. Don't you think with as low as the water is now(from lack of rain) that the water would be warm enough to move them out by the first week in May? I do



> With my hypothesis, the fish are indeed free to reproduce naturally in the safe, cold water areas. These same fish are also free to roam the the entire river before (e.g. - right now) and after the temperature gets too high in the summer. So yes - I certainly believe that you've potentially caught naturally reproduced fish outside of these areas at this point in the year.


They do, the DNR and fisheries biologist both have told me the same thing when I asked. "More trout reproduce in that river than people would think"


> But my entire point is that the window between the opener and overheat is very small because the river is in such poor condition. Once we get into the overheated mode, the fish all hole up in the known cold water areas (HINT: the park on Squirrel Court is not one of these "holes"). Taking them at this point is shooting fish in a barrel - nearly quite literally.


When the water gets hot, the fish move and find colder water, these fish aren't dumb, they're not going to sit there and die, they're going to find a better habit in the stream. I have three pics in my gallery, two of them are fish over 11inches that are NOT plants and one is about 3 inches that is NOT a plant. I didn't catch them on a park on squirrel court, nor did I get them in paint creek either. Fact is they are carry over fish and a natural born fish to that river. I also know that Due51 on this site caught trout BEFORE they stocked the clinton this season, those weren't plants either, you're theory is wrong. 


> If this river was better cared for, we would see more summer habitat. This is the goal of my correspondence here. Just because there are a few fragile habitats remaining doesn't mean that the overall health of the river should be considered good, because it isn't.


Actually it is, maybe it's not where YOU walk or ride but it is, I've seen pike as big as logs in the river in July, big trout, steelhead, big bass, big panfish and walleye in that river all in the last two years. For a river in the metro area it's in great shape. Does it need more work? The answer to that is simple, find me a body of water in this state that doesn't need work. The work it needs is for cracking down on pollution in the river, not putting more people fishing it. 




> And most of it is shallow because of the aforementioned abuse. 130 acres of Silverdome parking lot runoff (not to mention the entire City of Pontiac) BLOWS OUT the river. Your fisheries biologist won't help you understand "channel morphology" as it relates to erosion because he is not a hydrologist - he's a biologist. Find yourself a hydrologist friend or do another search for "channel morphology erosion" and brush up on it. The river is shallow in most places BECAUSE we have abused it. But even if erosion hadn't flattened out the river, you still wouldn't find any living, naturally reproducing trout in 80-90 degree summer waters.
> 
> As a side note, erosive problems are hurting most of our rivers - not just the Clinton - just not as fast (i.e. - we're killing them slightly less quickly).


No most of it is shallow for the same reason that all of our lakes and rivers are down in the state, lake of snow and rain and not a lack of heat. Going by your theory the reason LSC and SCR(just to name two) are also down and have been for the last few years by a good margin is because of erosion and not droughts? Sorry I don't buy that and I'm sure nobody else does. Again, Trout DO reproduce in that stream, I have three pics of wild fish in my gallery and have caught many more. Don't take my word for it, ask Mike Wagner who is a member here who fished with me and found many wild fish where we were fishing



> Please buy a thermometer and use it often. A healthy river in Michigan will have pockets of mid 40 degree (F) water on even the hottest day of the year. I actually made a point to find the coldest point in a certain, healthy river on one 90 degree day: 44 degrees F! You won't get close to this on the Clinton (even on any of the "secret" holes).


Funny you mention that, I brought one that I use in my fish tank at home yesterday when I trout fished and took the temp, it was 54F where I was fishing  Trout don't need 40 degree water either, under 70 for rainbow trout in a lot of cases is fine and I believe under 75 for browns.


> Again: my entire point is geared at the summer high temperature season. You will most certainly find that the greater river will support life
> during the non-summer months. But there is limited space for the fish at the Clinton Coldwater Inn. It can only facilitate a small population of naturally-reproducing and multiple-year holdover fish. Targeting these fish in the summer is unethical, IMHO.


You fist say it doesn't have hold over fish and now say it has a small amount? As I said people that test and work on this river disagree. As far as ethics go, take that some place else. You're going to tell me if I trout fish the clinton in summer months I'm being unethical?  You've got to be kidding me. 

I recommend doing some exploring on the WHOLE river, not just where YOU walk it or bike it before telling people how poor it is or how it doesn't hold this or that. Fact is that there are spots in that river plenty fine to not only hold trout but help them reproduce. In fact when a friend of mine Mike who is a member on here caught a rainbow trout thursday it was shooting out sperm and he pulled it off a bed. That fish was 11-12inches long too and not a plant. As I said you're terribly misinformed


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## ESOX

The river is warmer than it should be, much, much warmer than it was even 20 years ago. The biggest reason is the development within the watershed. Development is the same reason there is the siltation in areas where previously none existed. with all the roofs, streets and parking lots, the rain runs straight into the river (Via ditches, storm drains etc) where it used to seep into or along the ground the ground, where it would cool and enter the river at a much slower, steadier rate. The big spikes in water levels from a moderate rain or runoff event never occurred, nor did the extremely low water levels and subsequent high temperatures we now see in late summer/fall. The big flashes of water have caused undue erosion problems, the decline in ground water entering the river has caused huge fluctuation's in both flow and high temps. There are numerous holes that used to be deep cool spring holes that are now simply silt traps, ready to trap the unwary wader. The springs have dried up.


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## DE82

ESOX said:


> The river is warmer than it should be, much, much warmer than it was even 20 years ago. The biggest reason is the development within the watershed. Development is the same reason there is the siltation in areas where previously none existed. with all the roofs, streets and parking lots, the rain runs straight into the river (Via ditches, storm drains etc) where it used to seep into or along the ground the ground, where it would cool and enter the river at a much slower, steadier rate. The big spikes in water levels from a moderate rain or runoff event never occurred, nor did the extremely low water levels and subsequent high temperatures we now see in late summer/fall. The big flashes of water have caused undue erosion problems, the decline in ground water entering the river has caused huge fluctuation's in both flow and high temps. There are numerous holes that used to be deep cool spring holes that are now simply silt traps, ready to trap the unwary wader. The springs have dried up.


The water is warmer than it should be, you are correct but the fact remains trout can be found, year round and do reproduce in the river. As with any body of water, it is knowing where to look. Given all that has happened to that river in years past it's is amazing shape. I mean you have a river that gets a steelhead run, a river that holds trout in some places in it and it's in the middle of a metro area. It needs work, yes, but more people fishing it isn't the work it needs, more reports on it isn't the work it needs and not fishing it period in the summer isn't the work it needs either. 

*I want to make is perfectly clear. I am in NO WAY saying this stream doesn't need work on it. I am however saying YES trout live in this stream YEAR ROUND. YES they can be caught YEAR ROUND and YES they reproduce to a degree in this stream. * 

If you really want to do it a service than report people who kill or take undersized fish, who litter, who trash the places along the river and who are fishing illegally. - Bryon


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## USMarine1171

How about the fact that they(whoever the developer was, and politicians who authorized it) built a friggin landfill along the banks? Geez, what a bonehead move!


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## stinger63

> I want to make is perfectly clear. I am in NO WAY saying this stream doesn't need work on it. I am however saying YES trout live in this stream YEAR ROUND. YES they can be caught YEAR ROUND and YES they reproduce to a degree in this stream.


Just say yes to trout.


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## jellybread

DE82 said:


> When the water gets hot, the fish move and find colder water, these fish aren't dumb, they're not going to sit there and die, they're going to find a better habit in the stream.


We are in agreement here. Where we are not in agreement is the size of said "better habitat". I believe it to be an extremely small area as the direct result of human abuses to the river. You seem to believe that there is a much healthier amount of this habitat.



DE82 said:


> I also know that Due51 on this site caught trout BEFORE they stocked the clinton this season, those weren't plants either, you're theory is wrong.


My hypothesis (not theory) was that there is a very small cold water habitat in which trout may naturally reproduce and hold over.



DE82 said:


> Actually it is, maybe it's not where YOU walk or ride but it is, I've seen pike as big as logs in the river in July, big trout, steelhead, big bass, big panfish and walleye in that river all in the last two years.


Pike, bass and panfish can all tolerate higher temperatures, pollution and sedimentation. Clinton steelhead in July is tough for me to believe without seeing it with my own eyes.



DE82 said:


> For a river in the metro area it's in great shape. Does it need more work? The answer to that is simple, find me a body of water in this state that doesn't need work. The work it needs is for cracking down on pollution in the river, not putting more people fishing it.


Wow. I'm not sure where to start. Maybe instead of me telling you that the river is in poor shape, you should just go to epa dot gov (I have to spell out the "." because the website won't let me post a direct link) and type in "clinton river" and do some reading. Here's an excerpt:_ The Area of Concern (AoC) includes the *entire watershed* as well as a portion of Lake St. Clair immediately downstream of the mouth of the Clinton River. *Up to half of the river's flow is treated wastewater* from six municipal wastewater treatment plants.

Very rapid urban expansion and the subsequent loss of habitat is the second significant category of environmental problems related to water quality in the Clinton River watershed. Oakland County leads the state in new construction, and Macomb County is experiencing rapid urbanization as well. Wetlands and other wildlife habitat have been all but eliminated from the downstream portion of the basin, and natural drainage has been drastically altered throughout the watershed.

__Historical point source discharges and ongoing nonpoint sources are responsible for sediment contamination in the mainstem Clinton River. Metals, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), pesticides and other organics have been documented over several decades in a number of locations along the Clinton River from Pontiac to the mouths of both the river and the spillway._​I doubt that you will get people to spend more money (via taxation) to flush their toilet. On the other hand, a group of angry fishermen might garner the attention of our politicians.



DE82 said:


> No most of it is shallow for the same reason that all of our lakes and rivers are down in the state, lake of snow and rain and not a lack of heat.


Lets go back to epa [dot] gov and search for: clinton river hydrologic

The first link is a 73 page report on this very subject. The well-educated scientists who wrote the paper happen to disagree with your assessment. From the report:_Rootwads or other streambank stabilization techniques are suggested at critical bends in the river to prevent further widening,._​


DE82 said:


> Funny you mention that, I brought one that I use in my fish tank at home yesterday when I trout fished and took the temp, it was 54F where I was fishing


Please stop setting up this straw man. During a warm spell in the *summer*, measure the river temperature *outside* of Galloway and Paint Creeks and their confluences with the main river and let me know what that temperature is.



DE82 said:


> As far as ethics go, take that some place else. You're going to tell me if I trout fish the clinton in summer months I'm being unethical?  You've got to be kidding me.


Hey - if you are fishing in the main branch, then you're a peach. But I prefer to leave them alone once they all huddle up in the small areas that will support them during this critical period.

You seem to be happy with "good enough for now, screw the future" while I am of the opinion "what we have now is going to be gone tomorrow if we don't do something soon". I think that we can agree to disagree here.


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## DE82

jellybread said:


> We are in agreement here. Where we are not in agreement is the size of said "better habitat". I believe it to be an extremely small area as the direct result of human abuses to the river. You seem to believe that there is a much healthier amount of this habitat.


Have you explored that WHOLE river? If not than you're off base, since I know of places like not only look like northern trout stream but fish like them I still say your wrong. On another note, the water is so poor in this river a sturgeon was just caught today by another member, go check the other thread. 




> My hypothesis (not theory) was that there is a very small cold water habitat in which trout may naturally reproduce and hold over.
> 
> 
> 
> Pike, bass and panfish can all tolerate higher temperatures, pollution and sedimentation. Clinton steelhead in July is tough for me to believe without seeing it with my own eyes.


Well I'm not showing you my spot so you can take that out of your way of thinking. Re-read my posts, I never said there were steelhead in July, I said pike the size of logs were.The bigger the fish the more oxygen that will need. Going by your way of thinking the pike I saw the size or a log, HUGE carp and smallmouth bass pushing 3lbs in July and August couldn't live, but they are, why is that? Because there are spots where they can, that's why. 




> Wow. I'm not sure where to start. Maybe instead of me telling you that the river is in poor shape, you should just go to epa dot gov (I have to spell out the "." because the website won't let me post a direct link) and type in "clinton river" and do some reading. Here's an excerpt:_ The Area of Concern (AoC) includes the *entire watershed* as well as a portion of Lake St. Clair immediately downstream of the mouth of the Clinton River. *Up to half of the river's flow is treated wastewater* from six municipal wastewater treatment plants.
> 
> Very rapid urban expansion and the subsequent loss of habitat is the second significant category of environmental problems related to water quality in the Clinton River watershed. Oakland County leads the state in new construction, and Macomb County is experiencing rapid urbanization as well. Wetlands and other wildlife habitat have been all but eliminated from the downstream portion of the basin, and natural drainage has been drastically altered throughout the watershed.
> 
> __Historical point source discharges and ongoing nonpoint sources are responsible for sediment contamination in the mainstem Clinton River. Metals, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), pesticides and other organics have been documented over several decades in a number of locations along the Clinton River from Pontiac to the mouths of both the river and the spillway._​I doubt that you will get people to spend more money (via taxation) to flush their toilet. On the other hand, a group of angry fishermen might garner the attention of our politicians.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets go back to epa [dot] gov and search for: clinton river hydrologic
> 
> The first link is a 73 page report on this very subject. The well-educated scientists who wrote the paper happen to disagree with your assessment. From the report:


I pretty much figured you weren't reading my posts and this proves it. When did I say the stream didn't need work? I said, and this is the last time I will since I've said it 5 times now. *I want to make is perfectly clear. I am in NO WAY saying this stream doesn't need work on it. I am however saying YES trout live in this stream YEAR ROUND. YES they can be caught YEAR ROUND and YES they reproduce to a degree in this stream. * 



> Please stop setting up this straw man. During a warm spell in the *summer*, measure the river temperature *outside* of Galloway and Paint Creeks and their confluences with the main river and let me know what that temperature is.


Stop changing your story, first you tell me to bring a thermometer, I tell you I did and what the temp was and now you're telling me to do it in the summer too. No need, I know people who have and who have caught trout in the river where I'm fishing in July and August too. I don't know how else to put it to you other than YOU ARE WRONG.
You changed your story a post ago when you first told everybody no trout reproduced in the river and then said a small number. Get your facts right before telling people incorrect information. 



> Hey - if you are fishing in the main branch, then you're a peach. But I prefer to leave them alone once they all huddle up in the small areas that will support them during this critical period.
> 
> You seem to be happy with "good enough for now, screw the future" while I am of the opinion "what we have now is going to be gone tomorrow if we don't do something soon". I think that we can agree to disagree here.


You seam happy with passing on WRONG info to people and giving you're take on what should be done. You obviously haven't been reading ANY of what I write before you respond. I said this in my last post "If you really want to do it a service than report people who kill or take undersized fish, who litter, who trash the places along the river and who are fishing illegally." Since you clearly don't know what your talking about and refuse to learn just stop and give it up. Not only myself but another member also found many flaws in your posts. Rather than come on an internet forum and COMPLAIN about it saying it's useless and is only here to make money like you did in your third post and then continuing to misinform people about the stream you should probably spend time away from your house exploring it and learning something. This is my last post to you since you CLEARLY do NOT get it. These are the facts, these are not made up, these are not opinion, this is right from the Fisheries Biologist and the DNR as well as my own knowledge from fishing this river and exploring most of it for years.

_*1. Trout DO Live in this river year round.
2. Trout CAN and DO reproduce to a degree in this river*_

Now lastly, more fishermen is NOT what this river needs. More people at the river is not what it needs and let me tell you why. Just this season I've seen people, many people in fact fishing with illegal rigs. I've seen people killing planter and wild trout. I've seen people catching trout and not unhooking them but rather ripping the crank bait out of their mouths and throwing them back in the water only for them to die 5 minutes later. I've seen COUNTLESS people trashing the river and throwing stuff in it. More people isn't what this river needs. This is and I'm saying this for the last time.

People to report those who are breaking the law, be it by pollution, taking undersized fish, not fishing legally or dumping into the river. 

I'm now done with this, I've proved my point(at least to the degree where people have been PMing me like crazy for info) You're clearly not listening to anything I've typed because I'm just saying the same thing over and over again, in the end I'm here to help people fish the right way and learn along with them, I wouldn't know of some of my spots I've been fishing if not for kind people. - Bryon


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## back2spool

Um, I don't want to get too muddy by jumping in here, but I can't resist...

#1) You will NEVER see a ladder at Yates. Fisheries biologists fear upstream migration of steelhead into Paint Creek will hurt they brown trout fishery they have been working to build.

#2) I think jellybread got off on the wrong foot by not reading forum rules and posting exact holes and things spiraled out of control. I think his heart is in the right place by being concerned for the river.

#3) Natural reproduction does take place in the river, at least when there is not a massive chemical spill like 2 summers ago.

This is the third thread I have seen lately where people are quick to jump down each other's throats. I have* been guilty of doing it in the past as well. * The only way we are going to improve our fisheries is to spend less time infighting and more time treating one another respectfully. My concerns for our local rivers led me to join the Clinton River Watershed Council. I used to just attend cleanups, but now I am involved in temperature monitoring, bank stabilization and fish structure installations.

I recommend a similar course of action to all who enjoy this river. The reward of catching a fish is multiplied by 1,000 when you realize it could be there because of something you did to help it survive.

One final note: (WHat am I Jerry Springer?) I do fish the Clinton for trout from time to time, but I take a low impact approach and fish it much less during those summer months when the fish are under enough stress as it is...


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## donbtanner

back2spool is right. We should all agree that this river is not where it should be, and bickering about to the degree of the health of the river being debated in this thread will do nothing for its improvement. I hope you all take as much concern regarding this issue up with people who can actually do something about it. Jellybread should not feel ostracized by voicing his concern. Yes he broke a rule, but have any of any of you ever broken one? For gosh sakes, he's brand new to the site. Please respect his concern, you don't have to agree, but be careful of throwing stones at him.


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## Chinookhead

Back2spool, I agree with you on most of your points, but I do not agree with the fear of steelhead in trout streams. I think that it is a funny "Michigan/Great Lakes" common misconception. You mentioned:

"#1) You will NEVER see a ladder at Yates. Fisheries biologists fear upstream migration of steelhead into Paint Creek will hurt they brown trout fishery they have been working to build."

The best native rainbow and brown trout rivers (numbers and especially size of fish) are home to large runs of salmon or steelhead. The trout feed on the eggs and the rotting flesh giving the fish lots of protein for the not abundant food period of winter....that's why flesh patterns in Alaska and other similar places work so well at the end of the salmon runs. Places with lots of rotting salmon settling were full of rainbow trout and grayling pecking at the flesh...sometimes these salmon were "sort" of dead.

I think that a lot of this attitude comes from 2 places:

1) Home owners not wanting hundreds of rotting salmon stinking up their properties for a month + I don't think that we have to be concerned with huge salmon runs...maybe an okay steelhead run...still quite a trip and these fish would not be open to fishing in paint creek and could give the Clinton a more vigorous strain of steelhead.

2) Also, many in the fly/trout crowd fear big salmon and steelhead runs b/c they bring lots of fisherman many of whom are not as conscientious of how they impact the river who will pollute and erode the banks through heavy traffic, which can stress the upper waters of these already fragile rivers. In order to avoid this issue and to let the salmon and steelhead spawn in Alaska they let the fish run all the way up the river, but don't allow any or very limited fishing for the salmon and steelhead in the upstream areas.


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## stinger63

> #3) Natural reproduction does take place in the river, at least when there is not a massive chemical spill like 2 summers ago.


trout should not be planted in a river like the clinton which is susetable to at least 1 chemical/sewage spill every year.


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## ESOX

stinger63 said:


> trout should not be planted in a river like the clinton which is susetable to at least 1 chemical/sewage spill every year.


Tell that to the guys fishing the Grand.


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## back2spool

I agree with your points as well.

I was just going off what a fisheries biologist told me about a ladder at Yates. Those are not my personal thoughts!!


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## mattm

Didn't the pontiac wastewater plant dump a bunch of bleach in the river about 2-3 years ago killing most of the river downstream. And wouldn't that make it imposible for there to be 5-6 year old fish? Aslo can anyone tell how to tell the diference between a stocked trout and a wild trout. I don't think they clip fins anymore is their some other markings on the fish? I have caught stockerfest fish wih funny looking fins but only the larger one were like that.


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## stinger63

> Didn't the pontiac wastewater plant dump a bunch of bleach in the river about 2-3 years ago killing most of the river downstream


Yes this happened not only did it kill fish but all other life in it as well.


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## quest32a

Bryon, you really need to slow down and listen to what a few of these guys are saying... if you are not careful you will quickly hang yourself by the same rope that you did last time.


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## stinger63

ESOX said:


> Tell that to the guys fishing the Grand.


The Grand is an entirely different size of stream than the Clinton.Its probaly 3-4 times larger in width than the clinton so an occasional sewage spill on this river doesnt hurt it say as a major sewage or chemical spill on the clinton river.It takes one major spill on this river which is so fragile as it is that any and most of the life including trout and most other game fish can and or will be wiped out.Alot of $ has been spent cleaning up this river and revitalising it in order for trout to survive here.If there isnt any protection on this stream to stop the sewage and chemical spills then what good does it do waste resources planting trout here on this river.


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## jellybread

Chinookhead said:


> Back2spool, I agree with you on most of your points, but I do not agree with the fear of steelhead in trout streams. I think that it is a funny "Michigan/Great Lakes" common misconception.


While it is good to have someone (somewhere!) support me on my arguments, I have read the MDNR report that cites the fear of mitigating the Yates dam. Again, I would provide a direct link to said document but I am not allowed to do this until I get 15 posts.

As a side note, it is important to note that Jim Francis seems to be the only biologist with a name on any of the MDNR reports. I would be interested in hearing the opinions of other biologists - not to step on Jim's toes (it really sounds like he is politically out-gunned on any opinions, gut-feelings, or facts that he might have in such an under-funded arena). Jim: if you are listening, please survey the Auburn Hills trout structure project in the summer instead of the spring. This will go a long way to proving (or disproving) my coldwater hypothesis.

However, I believe the fear was not that of salmon but that of the steelhead, which will typically come into the river during late fall and "winter over" in the river. As you have so graciously pointed out, the Chinook are semelparous, coming into the river only to spawn before they die (hence their lack of appetite). Upon spawning, the dead chinook become fodder for the upcoming generations and resident fish (win - win?).

The fear lies in the steelhead, which is iteroparous (reproducing many times during a lifetime). Unlike the chinook, these iteroparous fish will feed in the rivers that they occupy during spawing - often significantly. A ladder at Yates (or removal of the dam entirely) would allow the steelhead to feast upon the 20 fish that DE82 is trying to keep to himself.

So yes - eliminating the Yates barrier would change the river dramatically. But only because there isn't anything dramatic to change.

But, like I said, I would like to see the Clinton loaded with chinook. I think that this produces the best possibility of garnering awareness for the river. After some recovery effort, an *admitted long-shot* possibility is twisting Chrysler's arm on some "green" publicity: work with the MDNR (and maybe L. Brooks) on building an atlantic salmon hatchery at Galloway Creek on Chrysler Headquarters property.

Atlantic salmon - currently being introduced with reasonable success to the St. Mary's River by Lake Superior State University - have better temperature tolerance than do rainbow trout. These fish do not smolt for two years so a hatchery would be necessary to introduce them into the Clinton in any significant number. But, if they are viable, then these fish would be worth it: salmo salar.

Salar is Latin for "leaper". Any fish that made it back to spawn would have no trouble clearing the dam at Yates. The run would be like a 4th of July in November, which is their typical spawning period. And, as it turns out, atlantics blend quite well with rainbow in high temperature environments:

_aglr *[dot]* org/jglr/release/31/31_4_386-396.php_
_Laboratory results revealed that in the presence of rainbow trout, Atlantic salmon lost weight at 15°C, maintained weight at 20°C, and gained weight at 25°C, whereas the opposite effect occurred for rainbow trout. For Atlantic salmon maintained alone, no temperature effects on growth were found._

_According to Coghlan, if the management objective is to maximize total biomass of salmonines produced in each stream, cold streams obviously are more productive than warm streams, but stream temperatures may dictate which mixture of salmonine species results in the greatest production._

_"Streams too warm for much rainbow trout production may be excellent candidates for Atlantic salmon restoration," he says, "especially if competition with rainbow trout is limiting elsewhere."_​I would give up fishing to see atlantic salmon going over the dam at Yates. Maybe not - but I might shut up for a few minutes. Does anyone know why the DNR has not expanded the atlantic program beyond that of the St. Mary's and Torch Lake?

:JB
/s


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## mattm

> Does anyone know why the DNR has not expanded the atlantic program beyond that of the St. Mary's and Torch Lake?


I think when the first started salmon stcking they tried atlantics in several streams with little success 


> But, like I said, I would like to see the Clinton loaded with chinook


I too would love too catch chinnoks in the clinton but the river already stinks, I could only imagine the stench of thousands of dead salmon. The river would become even more of a bacteria brothel. Another downer is those salmon would venture to either huron or erie. PA used to stock salmon in erie but stealhead do much better their, and huron has not exactly been doing that great as far as salmon are concerned. I'm not trying to argue just don't think its going to happen


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## stinger63

> Does anyone know why the DNR has not expanded the atlantic program beyond that of the St. Mary's and Torch Lake?


I`ll take a shot in the dark at this Im going to guess that Atlantic salmon take to long to raise in hatcheries and that theres limited hatchery space and funding to raise them here.
As for the survival in torch lake I think there wasnt enough natural reproduction to sustain the population of them.From what i remember reading there is an occasional atlantic salmon still caught from this lake but very rare these days.I once thought about going up to that lake iso of them but anyone has a better chance in the st marys.Atlantics in the clinton oboy that will be the day I cant wait to see that happen


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## ESOX

Stinger, I am well aware of you distaste for the fact that Mill Creek steelhead stockings were decreased as Clinton stockings were increased. You will have to face the reality one day that it was and excellent decision by the DNR, putting steelhead in the backyard of a couple million people, on a river with miles and miles of public access, as opposed to on Mill with some limited public access and not even 10% of the population in it's watershed. Yes, sewage and chemical spills do happen. BUT The vast majority of the sewage enters the river downstream of Red Run Drain, which Oakland County views as it's open cesspool. The drain doesn't even come above ground till after Oakland Counties sewage dump point at Dequindre and Chicago Roads (the Oakland County Border by no small coincidence), and doesn't enter the Clinton mainstream till Hayes and Utica Roads , much, much downstream from the trout habitat of the upper reaches. It is unfortunate the with the feds approval one of the wealthiest counties in the nation still treats the river as it's personal toilet. as it is unfortunate what Grand Rapids etc.do to other rivers. Now, how to get the regulations changed?


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## stinger63

> Stinger, I am well aware of you distaste for the fact that Mill Creek steelhead stockings were decreased as Clinton stockings were increased


Esox my previous feelings of the cut back of the planting of steelhead in millcreek or any other river in st clair county has no revelance to this thread and feelings about planting trout in the clinton river at this time.



> BUT The vast majority of the sewage enters the river downstream of Red Run Drain, which Oakland County views as it's open cesspool. The drain doesn't even come above ground till after Oakland Counties sewage dump point at Dequindre and Chicago Roads (the Oakland County Border by no small coincidence), and doesn't enter the Clinton mainstream till Hayes and Utica Roads


As for the last chemical spill that occured 2-3 years ago that wiped out almost all life from the clinton river occured way upstream from the pontiac waste water treatment plant.Yes they were fined for the chemical release "bleach" that was up to 10 times higher than what the epa is allowed acceptable but there was nothing done to pay for the aquatic life that was destroyed because of the spill.


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## Chinookhead

Jellybread the chances of building a productive atlantic salmon fishery in the clinton is even less likely than chinooks...as someone mentioned, their smolting takes even longer than steelhead. It takes 12-20 months as opposed to steelhead which leave in a year. They have proven very hard to re-introduce even in their native habitat and seem to be sensitive to be very sensitive to habitat degradation and pollution + they cost a lot more to raise b/c they take so long to smolt. Kings would not be good for the lakes either because their food is in short supply as is...whereas steelhead have a much wider diet (like bugs and crustaceans) and don't require huge amounts of food like kings. Also, i don't see adult steelhead smolts gobbling up large numbers off catchable trout. When they come to spawn, the come to spawn and not feed.....but they do sometimes come into rivers to feed on salmon eggs.

Also, Jellybread, I think that there has been some degree of mis-understanding between u and DE82, I think that the argument between u too is only a matter of degree....DE82 thinks that the stream is in better shape than u think it is in and I think taht this has alot to do with the areas u guys live and fish (very different areas). I also agree with the sentiment that many sections which could be livable trout waters are not b/c of human impact, large paved areas like the silverdome parking lot (adds lots of pollution too), and all of the draining of the tribs and springs.


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## jellybread

mattm said:


> I think when the first started salmon stcking they tried atlantics in several streams with little success


The only success that they have had with Atlantic has come in the past 5 years (that is, the fish are returning). The DNR's logs indicate that, since this success, they haven't planted the fish in anyplace sustainable - just the St. Mary's and Torch Lake. Yes - the rapids at St. Mary's can facilitate some reproduction but it isn't exactly hospitable to the survival of parr.

Again - I used the term "long shot" to describe Atlantic salmon of any sort in the Clinton. But I would like to see the new, successful strain attempted elsewhere in Michigan. These fish are more capable of living on post-mussel Great Lakes habitat. St. Mary's fisherman are catching them on some pretty crazy bait.



Chinookhead said:


> Jellybread the chances of building a productive atlantic salmon fishery in the clinton is even less likely than chinooks...as someone mentioned, their smolting takes even longer than steelhead. It takes 12-20 months as opposed to steelhead which leave in a year.


Which is why I mentioned Chrysler, whose headquarters is the only thing keeping Galloway in unmolested, coldwater condition. If it were possible to introduce Atlantic into the Clinton (again, my words were "long shot"), then they would probably jump at such a "green" advertising opportunity - fronting a good portion or perhaps all of the cost. Oakland County (L. Brooks Patterson) may be interested in some financial commitment, as well. Build a hatchery on Chrysler property and dump the fish right into Galloway.

I don't see any natural reproduction of Atlantic in the Clinton. But I think that we could get fish to return, which would draw attention to the state of the river. In order to restore the river, we would need to get the public interested in tools like eminent domain, which is another long shot.


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