# It got locked, but...............



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

take it to padeer.com and leave this form to Mi issues. If you want to bring the issues learned in pa and apply the to Mi fine. But this forum is NOT going to turn into the huge BS problem that the mangement forum on padeer or what ever that site is called. Period.


ferg....


:Modified_ :tsk:


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Ferg said:


> take it to padeer.com and leave this form to Mi issues. If you want to bring the issues learned in pa and apply the to Mi fine. But this forum is NOT going to turn into the huge BS problem that the mangement forum on padeer or what ever that site is called. Period.
> 
> 
> ferg....
> ...


 
I'll second that comment!


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## Brad Gehman (Jun 6, 2004)

Gentleman, I posted that thread for informational purposes, to show what severe overbrowsing can do. I don't know if in your state you have such areas that fences have been erected to exclude deer and increase regeneration, but I thought it would help people see what happens.

I'm sure what we learn here in PA can be applied to many other states, including MIchigan. 

I'm sorry if I offended you guys, just trying to post something I thought was interesting and PERHAPS your members might find interesting. 

Guess I was wrong.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Brad,
You weren't wrong. Some us found those pictures & discussion very interesting. Like you, I didn't realize that our discussions should be limited to Michigan deer & habitat.

L & O


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## Swamper (Apr 12, 2004)

I agree with Brad. To bury our heads in the sand and say it will not/cannot/could not ever happen here is to ensure that it will happen here. I am sure PA never expected it. I agree that endless discussion that goes nowhere about who to blame is fruitless and of no value here.

There are spots in Northern MI that have been browsed out. Not to the same extent as in the pictures, but on its way and will be there faster if we let the deer herds get out of control.

We have to learn and plan. As someone once said, "to fail to plan, is in essence a plan to fail".

Swamper


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## One Eye (Sep 10, 2000)

I have still been waiting for someone to explain to me why most of the acorns in my Northern Newaygo County hunting area are rotting on the ground the last couple of years. We are not talking about marginal habitat guys, but rather wildlife extermination!

I will buy the statement that some areas have too many deer, if the DNR would ever admit that many areas have been reduced too low. Good luck getting that acknowledgement from anyone above teh field biologist level.

Dan


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## Brad Gehman (Jun 6, 2004)

Dan, we hammered the public lands deer herd here in PA back in the late 80's and early 90's. In the mid 90's we had a bumper crop of acorns, forget which 2 years. But, anyway, we had acorns laying all over the place, just like you. Funny thing tho was after that we saw oak seedlings for the first time in our lives. These seedlings are now older and in some areas, past the deer. 

Three years ago, we again had a bumper crop and again, lots of small seedlings now. 20 years ago, it was unheard of. 

So, yes, you have few deer, but how else will oaks grow if the deer eat all the acorns? 

Same thing happened to our whie pines and hemlocks. Was unheard of to see seedlings or regeneration of either in my area. I used to hunt an area before the herd was reduced. Three years ago I went back, 12 years after I last set foot there, I was simply AMAZED at the growth of white pine and hemlock. Stuff was thick and maybe 4-5 ft tall in some areas. This is stuff the deer can feed on and bed in over winter, that wasn't there years ago. 

Is what I just mentioned happening all over PA? No, but in some of the areas I hunt, it is. And I know its good for all wildlife, not just deer.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

My 'issue' was that I was NOT going watch a debate about PA's problems between Brad and Happy Hunter - if they want argue about PA's issues they can take it to the pa site - 

It was/is a good post - my intent is to nip the innerstate debate about PA here on the Michigan site - 

Still is - 

No offence Brad or HH - its a good post/thread and has merrit - I only ask that the PA guys argu over PA on the pa board - not here - 

Thanks

ferg....


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Ferg said:


> My 'issue' was that I was NOT going watch a debate about PA's problems between Brad and Happy Hunter - if they want argue about PA's issues they can take it to the pa site -
> 
> It was/is a good post - my intent is to nip the innerstate debate about PA here on the Michigan site -
> 
> ...


 
Me too!


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## Brad Gehman (Jun 6, 2004)

Wasn't and will not respond to HH, not on this board. 

Simply presenting info on what is happening here and possibly it might apply to you guys in parts of your state.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Ferg said:


> take it to padeer.com and leave this form to Mi issues. If you want to bring the issues learned in pa and apply the to Mi fine. But this forum is NOT going to turn into the huge BS problem that the mangement forum on padeer or what ever that site is called. Period.
> ferg....
> :Modified_ :tsk:



SOMEBODY GIVE ME AN AMEN!  

AW


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Anyways, after all this, thanks for the pics Brad. We normally vacation at the cabin in PA for a week, but we didn't last year, and it doesn't look like we will this year...except for maybe a few days later in the summer. The big woods of PA have kept me coming back for hunting season for 12 years now and those pictures you shared bring back a lot of fond memories of hiking and hunting in the PA woods. Kind of funny, but when I'm out there for rifle I feel handicapped if I limit myself to shots of a 100 yards or less. I might only be able to shoot 100 yards on one side, maybe only 50-75 in a few spots near the hemlock bottoms, but guarenteed I'll have a few 150-200 yard windows at a couple benches or flats and although it is a sign of an unhealthy forest, it makes for great senery and fun viewing during the hunt.

At the same time, I know this is not the case across all of PA, but seeing those pictures reminds me of memories that started in 1993...hiking with my wife before we were married, spending time and getting to know her family, even asking her dad for his blessing on our marriage while on one of those hikes, not to mention all the vacations and hunting days since that time.

Appreciated the PA pics!


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## Brad Gehman (Jun 6, 2004)

Thanks Jeff, no matter where I hunt in PA, my heart is in the Big Woods. Lots of deer in our suburbs and farm lands, like you guys have out there, but, hunting there just isn't the same as the solitude of northern PA. Glad you appreciate it as well.


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## kdogger (Jan 10, 2005)

We have a deer "exclosure" pen on our property, and boy I need to get a digital picture! (This is a 1/2 acre area where deer are fenced out) It is thick as all get-out in the exclosure, while outside is pretty bare. This demonstrates to me the damage the deer cause to the forest when there are too many of them. Last year saw a significant decline in deer on the property. I think that they just ate up everything and moved off property...I am glad. (although it was a very slow fall for hunting....) The brush needs a couple of years to re-grow without getting mowed down to roots!


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2005)

Browse lines indeed!

You do not need to see browse lines to know that you have a severe natural forage problem.

Last early fall Dr. Grant Woods gave a personal presentation and took a group walk with us through a private property woods in the Alpena area. It looked like there was plenty of forage, with actual thick stands of small trees no more than six feet tall. One could not detect any browse lines becuase there weren't any. Yet Dr. Woods made the comment that he thought that the area
was not producing more than 10 lbs of forage per acre per year for deer. If deer eat 3,000 lbs of forage per year (and they do) then the area would support no more than TWO deer per square mile. 

So, what's the story in that neck of the woods? The reason that it appeared that there was plenty of forage for deer was due to the fact that the vegetation growing was at best third choice deer browse. The area consisted of mature oaks, beech and especially thick young stands of ironwood. The oaks were mature and out of reach, there was some young beech but deer do not eat beech, not even beech leaves. The thick young untouched stands were untouched because deer do not eat ironwood, not even ironwood leaves. 

This is more common in Michigan than you would think. 

POINT: what you see isn't necessarily what you see. It's been posted by more than a few on this site that they do not see browse lines in Michigan. I do not know of any public land that I have visited in the last few years that didn't have visible evidence of overbrowsing, (most with severe overbrowsing). 

One needs to know what and how to read overbrowsing. I remember a statement made by probably the most overall knowledgeable deer biologist in the world, Dr James F Kroll. He manages the private preserve Muy Grande in Presque Isle County and has since the mid 1990's. He had just returned from a meeting with state officials and made the comment. 

"You have to be blind to not see the overbrowsing in the northern lower and yet I just came from a meeting with a few of your state officials and they had the audacity to say there was little overbrowsing in Michigan". So much for the knowledge or is it denial by our state personal.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

*You do not need to see browse lines to know that you have a severe natural forage problem.*

Now this statement deserves an AMEN.

My guess is that some on this board who say they have a good piece of land, that they have good woods, probably don`t know the difference between people woods and deer woods. Good people woods is not good deer woods. According to Neil Dougherty, good deer woods is a thick, nasty, tangled, mess, that you would be embarrassed to let anyone see.


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

More Good Points Ed,

I think Im familiar with the property you referenced, it is further south . I have noted the trend in habitat change for yearsBut who would believe me when I raised concerns? I was just labeled as Crazy!! It took an unbiased outside source to convey to some folks in the area that the deer are living on a starvation diet when in fact they thought they had a whitetail paradise.

I have been doing a little photo documentary work across the North in my travels. Pictures of obvious over browsing and habitat changes. I hope to compile the photos and share with all at some point in the future. There is some good, some bad, and some downright ugly.

Ive posted here before that you really have to get on you knees to see what the deer are eating and see what is growing. Drive bys dont really cut it in terms of evaluating potential overbrowsing.


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## Brad Gehman (Jun 6, 2004)

This is a pic of a planted white pine in northern PA. On the edge of public hunting grounds, but in a no hunting zone. Picnic area, really. Pic was taken in March 2004. Our game dept did a winter mortality survey and found a fair number of winter kills in the area. Anyone think these are well fed deer? I posted this on a PA website and was told by some that its "natural" for white pines to grow like this. LOL

Some of you guys are right, if you don't know what to look for, there can be "no browseline". 

When I was a kid hunting here in PA in the 70's, the deer ate any beech that came up. They ate everything. Now, we see no browsing on beech, at least in my area. We see oaks regenerating in some spots, especially fenced enclosures. And it is funny, because in PA many hunters blame the acid rain for a lack of regeneration, yet, the same rain falls inside the fences as outside. 

Well, anyway, thought I'd share this pic I took.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Brad,

A lot of these guys just have not experienced what the PA woods looks like and your pictures are perfect. That browsed-out whitepine is common in our deer yards, but on my property and most of MI the deer will just not touch a WP(although my rabbits like them in the winter). In the PA woods where we hunt there are no browse lines, because the only trees small enough to even show a browse line is starvation food....beech, because everything else is eaten.

We have lots of problem areas in MI...both problems with high numbers, and low numbers  Just because you look at a high deer density area in Alpena does not mean the entire Alpena area is too high, the region, or of course the state for that matter. In the same respect, just because 11/19 DMU's in the U.P. have too few deer and could stand a good increase..some areas as much as 100% increase, does not mean the rest of the state is too low. At the same time, you can find some stark contrasts between private lands where sometimes hunters and harvests can often be limited, and public lands, where sometimes many more hunters than deer can be common.


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## n.pike (Aug 23, 2002)

Adam Waszak said:


> Habitat improvement is needed as I said earlier, you need to have an ideal population of deer as well but when a trout stream needs work they do not start out by wiping out the trout first they go ahead and do the habitat improvement.
> 
> AW


Best statement I've read.Well said.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I'm from MI, never lived in any other state, and the "wife" you assumed is actually a friend of mine named Joe and on 7/2 I will be one of the groomsmen in his wedding....hope he can still make it out to PA with his new "restraint".  

I'll try not to let his fiancee that works with me hear about you calling her future groom my wife...would definately be news to her! 

L&O,

It helps being the "boss", or are you bored...I can always use the help!!


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

NorthJeff said:


> I'm from MI, never lived in any other state, and the "wife" you assumed is actually a friend of mine named Joe and on 7/2 I will be one of the groomsmen in his wedding....hope he can still make it out to PA with his new "restraint".
> 
> I'll try not to let his fiancee that works with me hear about you calling her future groom my wife...would definately be news to her!
> 
> ...


 My aplogies. I didn't see the quotes in Brad's post and thought he was implying he was coming to PA from out of state.

BTW, I am glad you enjoy hunting in PA ,but if you think our hunting is great, MI must really be bad. BTW, where I hunted in Luz. Co. we had a big problem with ATV's even though they were illegal.

The problem with PA's plan is that the OWDD goals are much to low in the areas with the best habitat. No QDM manager would manage the herd in 20% of the state at 6 DPSM, There is no way you could afford a QDM lease where you only harvest 1 buck PSM/yr.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

A good postive note to end this on - I think we've kicked this to death after these two long thread runs - 

ferg....


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