# Pheasant stamp



## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

Just got another $25 dollar stamp so we can hunt pheasants even if we dont want to hunt them farm raised birds.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Knock yourself out.


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## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

I guess maybe I didn't word that right. They just passed this yesterday so now even if we just want to run wild birds in Michigan we have to buy the pheasant stamp at $25. I just think its crazy.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

smokinbritts said:


> I guess maybe I didn't word that right. They just passed this yesterday so now even if we just want to run wild birds in Michigan we have to buy the pheasant stamp at $25. I just think its crazy.


Lots of people do.


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## UPaquariest (May 13, 2010)

Should have left it for the release areas only.


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

It’s passed in the House not the Senate yet. The vote is soon. Make calls and emails to voice yourself


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## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

ya Mr. Howell knows how I feel.


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

Unless your strictly hunting those throw down birds you shouldn't need a stamp.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Like I said previously,

When the money dries up, the throwdown birds will end.

We’re just lucky enough to have Covid 19 accelerating that for us, so even the most ignorant can understand.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

After all the lying that my Republican legislators told me with their last voting interference why even ask????? I will contact the witch governor, do not like her but she is the stoping block. Wish they would look to Washington with the virus situation and see the cooperation for once with the parties. This is *NOTHING* but special interest and the loss of a lot of old Pheasant hunters.


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## Hackman (Aug 13, 2008)

i like the opportunity to hunt some release areas and wild areas. it,s a additional opportunity we never had and now we have it let,s keep it. the money is so minimal when you look at the positive turn we have taken to the sport i as a dog owner enjoy. we need to support what we enjoy to do


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Hackman said:


> i like the opportunity to hunt some release areas and wild areas. it,s a additional opportunity we never had and now we have it let,s keep it. the money is so minimal when you look at the positive turn we have taken to the sport i as a dog owner enjoy. we need to support what we enjoy to do


This program is dead.The country and it's citizens are losing billions upon billions every day.Can we be realistic about the real truth.


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## Josh R (Dec 4, 2010)

I hate that they are forcing people, not really me, to buy a pheasant stamp to hunt pheasants on private property. Private property that the owner has worked on for years to get a good population of pheasants....

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

smokinbritts said:


> I guess maybe I didn't word that right. They just passed this yesterday so now even if we just want to run wild birds in Michigan we have to buy the pheasant stamp at $25. I just think its crazy.


A portion of the money goes towards wild pheasant restoration. It really isnt alot different than buying a state and federal waterfowl stamp.....except you only have to buy one.


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

DirtySteve said:


> A portion of the money goes towards wild pheasant restoration. It really isnt alot different than buying a state and federal waterfowl stamp.....except you only have to buy one.


They don't buy ducks for people with that stamp money.


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

For some reason i am getting a sense of deja vu...


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

michiganmaniac said:


> For some reason i am getting a sense of deja vu...
> View attachment 504685


Stewardship of the land and conservation are all but lost.This is our legacy.SMH.


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## Mike da Carpenter (Nov 26, 2017)

There is nothing in this world that says a guy cannot donate as much money or time as he wants to the preservation, and conservation, of habitat. If there is not a fund started within the DNR to set aside money for habitat, then start a Go Fund Me page, push it everywhere just like the guy did who started the MPHI. It’s not an easy trail to travel and I’m gonna postulate nobody wants to go through the troubles he did and deal with all the BS.

I’m on the fence when it comes to the program. I see good, and bad, in the MPHI. I too believe the money going towards habitat should be more and will find where I can send in what I can afford to help the most. I’ll gladly buy 3 stamps when they are available (One for both my boys and I). We will go just like last season (twice) and have a good time. It’s cheap entertainment and sadly what hunting in Michigan has drifted towards in the 35 years I have been hunting.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

fordman1 said:


> They don't buy ducks for people with that stamp money.


They spend a fair amount of it on wetland restoration in another country or other states. People gripe about that. Never gonna please everyone.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

I think there was a recent thread on the same subject that went on for days or weeks. All but a few agreed we did not want to pay for the pen released birds. For the same reasons too.

I dont know what we are trying to do. Do our representatives read these forums? Cool let's all go im them!


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

DirtySteve said:


> They spend a fair amount of it on wetland restoration in another country or other states. People gripe about that. Never gonna please everyone.


 They are " Migratory" and wildlife of all species benefit from DU and other similar waterfowl groups.To be honest DU has probably benefited pheasants just as much as PF.Wetland areas offer cover in winter that is crucial to pheasant survival for reproduction.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

DirtySteve said:


> They spend a fair amount of it on wetland restoration in another country or other states. People gripe about that. Never gonna please everyone.


Are you a member of any conservation organizations?


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

Mike da Carpenter said:


> There is nothing in this world that says a guy cannot donate as much money or time as he wants to the preservation, and conservation, of habitat. If there is not a fund started within the DNR to set aside money for habitat, then start a Go Fund Me page, push it everywhere just like the guy did who started the MPHI. It’s not an easy trail to travel and I’m gonna postulate nobody wants to go through the troubles he did and deal with all the BS.
> 
> I’m on the fence when it comes to the program. I see good, and bad, in the MPHI. I too believe the money going towards habitat should be more and will find where I can send in what I can afford to help the most. I’ll gladly buy 3 stamps when they are available (One for both my boys and I). We will go just like last season (twice) and have a good time. It’s cheap entertainment and sadly what hunting in Michigan has drifted towards in the 35 years I have been hunting.


That's exactly right, the funding sources solely for habitat are still intact and with the stamp, habitat gets even more money. If people feel compelled to have their money spent on habitat grab the checkbook and spend away.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

I would like to add that PF finally came around to support the MPHI and the stamp, the point of distention from the bill as originally proposed is private landowners are exempt from the stamp and they wanted a bigger chunk of the money which was 50%.

These are indisputable FACTS, feel free to ask PF leadership to verify. With all that said, you should ask yourself, why does the habitat organization oppose the MPHI effort at 25% funding but approve the effort at 50% funding toward habitat? I worked closely with PF on working a compromise because I also believe in a strong earmarked habitat component but PF gave me nothing to take to the table for discussion. My friends at MPHI have been belittled, called amateurs and have succumbed to more shenanigans than I can list in one post, but the fact of the matter is they prevailed almost entirely because their intentions are just and for the good of the hunting public, not just a few purists that think their ideas of conservation are superior.

The first answer is obvious PF is a money machine, most of the money they spend is raised by PF from grants provided by government entities and $1000 tables at banquets.

The reason for the big fight is there is a very small but vocal group of sportsman that have their heads locked into the mindset that everyone has the ability to travel 3 or 4 hours and everyone has dogs and the ability to walk all day like most of the people on this board. They also don't like "new" or inexperienced hunters encroaching on their holy grounds that happens to be public land for use by all sportsmen.

The huge house majority voting in favor of the stamp is a monumental step for the sportsman, it has been a very long time where the legislature has approved such a measure that benefits sportsman to this magnitude. It's also a huge win for the little guy, a few "little guys" got together and got an initiative to its full phase, that's f----- impressive! The money mecca PF hosted fancy breakfasts and used its megaphone to thwart the MPHI but still got smoked because of the committees that looked at the entire package objectively knew that MPHI is a better plan to get hunters in the field.

Now I ask if you don't like it do you think your idea of how things should be done are worthy of your own initiative?


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Howitzer said:


> I would like to add that PF finally came around to support the MPHI and the stamp, the point of distention from the bill as originally proposed is private landowners are exempt from the stamp and they wanted a bigger chunk of the money which was 50%.
> 
> These are indisputable FACTS, feel free to ask PF leadership to verify. With all that said, you should ask yourself, why does the habitat organization oppose the MPHI effort at 25% funding but approve the effort at 50% funding toward habitat? I worked closely with PF on working a compromise because I also believe in a strong earmarked habitat component but PF gave me nothing to take to the table for discussion. My friends at MPHI have been belittled, called amateurs and have succumbed to more shenanigans than I can list in one post, but the fact of the matter is they prevailed almost entirely because their intentions are just and for the good of the hunting public, not just a few purists that think their ideas of conservation are superior.
> 
> ...


Got it!,So if we keep losing more wildlife we can just raise it and dump it on the ground so we can shoot it.Who needs conservation.Definitely not us but wildlife needs it.
This will be a distraction from the the real problems and truths and we will only lose more wildlife with such a distraction." Good job"


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

The biggest issue you won’t address HOWITZER is how come hunters that don’t wish to participate need to pay for the stamp to fund it?


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

RCA DOGS said:


> The biggest issue you won’t address HOWITZER is how come hunters that don’t wish to participate need to pay for the stamp to fund it?


I don’t address it because that’s life, lots of my own dollars go to places I don’t like but I pay it anyway. My PF and tax money goes to private land restoration on land that I will never be able to hunt but I pay it. Your PF money goes to land you will never be able to hunt but you pay it. The fact is PF supported the stamp they just wanted 50% and got 25%...MPHI wanted 0%.

It’s about comprise neither party got everything they wanted.



Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

birdhntr said:


> Got it!,So if we keep losing more wildlife we can just raise it and dump it on the ground so we can shoot it.Who needs conservation.Definitely not us but wildlife needs it.
> This will be a distraction from the the real problems and truths and we will only lose more wildlife with such a distraction." Good job"


A distraction, come on. A distraction is getting people boozed up and throwing money into raffles in hopes of winning a Tupperware set. A distraction is trying to get people to think that their dollars are spent locally on land that they can hunt, a distraction is leading sportsman to believe their mission is to support hunters, a distraction is leading people to believe that PF is spending their own money on projects. There are plenty of distractions that led to the ultimate failure PF to properly address falling hunter numbers..

If you PF is the gospel, here is your bible. PF supports a stocking plain and simple. 

_Pheasants Forever is dedicated to the conservation of pheasants, quail and other wildlife through habitat improvements, public awareness, education and land management policies and programs. We support the substitute bill, contingent on the following modifications that would better align the bill with our mission: _


_100% of the revenue generated by the proposed Pheasant Stamp should be dedicated, by statute, to an ear-marked sub-fund for pheasant habitat and stocking, for maintaining the future of the pheasant hunting tradition in Michigan._
_We are the Habitat Organization and we have partnered in the development and implementation of the Michigan Pheasant Restoration Initiative (MPRI). We request a more equitable distribution of funds with 50% of funds dedicated to stocking efforts and 50% dedicated to pheasant habitat priorities identified in the MPRI. _
_Costs have long been identified as a barrier to recruiting and retaining hunters. Youth and adult participants of learn-to-hunt events with the primary focus of recruiting, retaining and reactivating hunters should be excluded from the requirement to purchase a pheasant stamp._
_A $25.00 stamp fee is high and could negatively impact numbers of current and new pheasant hunters. We suggest a pheasant stamp fee in the $15 range._
 

_Pheasants Forever has nearly 35 years of commitment to wild pheasant restoration in Michigan, and we have been involved in every aspect of the Michigan Pheasant Restoration Initiative for 10 years. A pheasant stamp that is required of all pheasant hunters should support our mission and the established MPRI plan as well as the stocking initiative._



_I welcome your thoughts. I’ll keep you informed as this bill progresses._



_Bill Vander Zouwen, Michigan Region Rep, Pheasants Forever_


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Howitzer said:


> A distraction, come on. A distraction is getting people boozed up and throwing money into raffles in hopes of winning a Tupperware set. A distraction is trying to get people to think that their dollars are spent locally on land that they can hunt, a distraction is leading sportsman to believe their mission is to support hunters, a distraction is leading people to believe that PF is spending their own money on projects. There are plenty of distractions that led to the ultimate failure PF to properly address falling hunter numbers..
> 
> If you PF is the gospel, here is your bible. PF supports a stocking plain and simple.
> 
> ...


Deer,waterfowl,turkey,rabbits,squirrel, are plentiful.Plenty of hunting available and yet hunter numbers are falling.A pheasant release program is going to fix this?


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

birdhntr said:


> Deer,waterfowl,turkey,rabbits,squirrel, are plentiful.Plenty of hunting available and yet hunter numbers are falling.A pheasant release program is going to fix this?


Data says yes, what do you hunt? Rabbits or Squirrels? I posted PF's position, what do you think of that?

I should not have to add this but I guess I need to for some of you. I have more access to more private land in the US and Michigan than most people can fathom, my dog has his nose up thousands of birds ass's before Dec. 1, I am in the triple digits on birds while most people are looking for the first rooster flush..I am in this for the casual little guy who just wants to hunt a few hours a month.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

So Howitzer, how many acres *DO YOU* raise your wild Pheasants on? I have spent 30 years raising mine even have survived the one sleet storm that wiped out the majority of the Pheasants and all the Quail. How many years does it take to have those Pines or Spruces big enough to allow cover? How many years to develop the wetlands for the winter Cattails utilized for cover? I am in St. Clair County and am out of the MPHI area. I belong to PF to help cover the seed cost and discount of fertilizer. That helps with the money I pour out for fuel and additional related costs. This stamp will do absolute nothing for me. Now as was preaching on other threads to raise and relocate the superior gene birds from Detroit, let's do it. Oh, that's right Detroit does not like it. Let all those bare acres stay a desert rather than a wildlife mecca![/QUOTE]


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

Chessieman said:


> So Howitzer, how many acres *DO YOU* raise your wild Pheasants on? I have spent 30 years raising mine even have survived the one sleet storm that wiped out the majority of the Pheasants and all the Quail. How many years does it take to have those Pines or Spruces big enough to allow cover? How many years to develop the wetlands for the winter Cattails utilized for cover? I am in St. Clair County and am out of the MPHI area. I belong to PF to help cover the seed cost and discount of fertilizer. That helps with the money I pour out for fuel and additional related costs. This stamp will do absolute nothing for me. Now as was preaching on other threads to raise and relocate the superior gene birds from Detroit, let's do it. Oh, that's right Detroit does not like it. Let all those bare acres stay a desert rather than a wildlife mecca!


[/QUOTE]
320 and not a nickel from PF . That's Michigan..

And landowners are exempt on your own land, so you pay nothing. In fact, you do nothing but a benefit because the increased PF membership will benefit you.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

That's *GREAT, hope *you have the birds and were listening to the Roosters cackling like I was yesterday!


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

RCA DOGS said:


> The biggest issue you won’t address HOWITZER is how come hunters that don’t wish to participate need to pay for the stamp to fund it?


He has not addressed solid arguments of one statement from anyone in the last few years and there has been a few good talking points.100% of every comment has been denounced.Amazingly not one person made a valid statement for discussion.
Here is two that I am still waiting to be addressed.
1: If this program is to expand where will we find the space( public land) to do so to make room for growth of hunters participating without effecting wild populations areas.And (genetic delution) of surviving wild birds.
2: What are you doing to make sure your not seeding the state game areas with viruses.(example)WNV effects many species causing death but Pheasants are not effected.But they are raised confined in large numbers where transmission can concentrate then be seeded.

Then with Covid 19 we are aware to stop transmission we need to eliminate large gatherings and create spacing to stop the spread.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

birdhntr said:


> He has not addressed solid arguments of one statement from anyone in the last few years and there has been a few good talking points.100% of every comment has been denounced.Amazingly not one person made a valid statement for discussion.
> Here is two that I am still waiting to be addressed.
> 1: If this program is to expand where will we find the space( public land) to do so to make room for growth of hunters participating without effecting wild populations areas.And (genetic delution) of surviving wild birds.
> 2: What are you doing to make sure our not seeding the state game areas with viruses.(example)WNV effects many species causing death but Pheasants are not effected.But they are raised confined in large numbers where transmission can concentrate then be seeded.
> ...


Huh? I went to great length to provide you with information but your idea of a conversation is to have people spoon-feed you links that you simply refute. I have posted facts, like the email above that nobody brings to the table other than I. Your constant request that "I" get information for you or have any knowledge about what is right and wrong when releasing birds.

Why do you think that "I" am MPHI or a biologist? I don't have any bearing on anything behind the science or claim to be an expert like you do. The FACT is Al Stewart and Bill Vander Zowden choose the release sites, take it up with them. Here is another FACT PF that has been releasing birds for the release to Learn to Hunt programs on properties with wild pheasant as long as I can remember.

Now that you have learned how to copy and paste try and research your own questions and take them to the MPRI steering committee.

And Covid-19 Are you F---ing kidding me, I am dying of laughter. If you can't keep a 6 feet distance while hunting you have serious problems. More proof that you are simply pointing and anything and trying to tack it on to your list of questions that nobody will ever be able to answer in a fashion that would satisfy your imagination.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Howitzer said:


> Data says yes, what do you hunt? Rabbits or Squirrels? I posted PF's position, what do you think of that?
> 
> I should not have to add this but I guess I need to for some of you. I have more access to more private land in the US and Michigan than most people can fathom, my dog has his nose up thousands of birds ass's before Dec. 1, I am in the triple digits on birds while most people are looking for the first rooster flush..I am in this for the casual little guy who just wants to hunt a few hours a month.


It starts with you if your in it for the little guy and if you are so flushed with birds maybe you could do something for Michigan's little guys and put that 320 into crp and the hap program since you really don't need to see that one rooster.I know of some hap lands that still produce pheasants for the little guy and have been for decades.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

birdhntr said:


> It starts with you if your in it for the little guy and if you are so flushed with birds maybe you could do something for Michigan's little guys and put that 320 into crp and the hap program since you really don't need to see that one rooster.I know of some hap lands that still produce pheasants for the little guy and have been for decades.


So now its give my land away because I disagree? I chose to not take any kind of money because I practice what I preach, my land my rules. Now that you are using Covid-19 and now this, I think this discussion has lost any chance at being productive. 

We should start another thread on why I think there should be a use tax of state lands with wild populations of pheasant. I have heard stories about how a certain group that runs their dogs in the hundreds of miles per month on state land displacing birds so they can get whacked by hawks.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Howitzer said:


> Huh? I went to great length to provide you with information but your idea of a conversation is to have people spoon-feed you links that you simply refute. I have posted facts, like the email above that nobody brings to the table other than I. Your constant request that "I" get information for you or have any knowledge about what is right and wrong when releasing birds.
> 
> Why do you think that "I" am MPHI or a biologist? I don't have any bearing on anything behind the science or claim to be an expert like you do. The FACT is Al Stewart and Bill Vander Zowden choose the release sites, take it up with them. Here is another FACT PF that has been releasing birds for the release to Learn to Hunt programs on properties with wild pheasant as long as I can remember.
> 
> ...


I was referring to the captive birds spreading disease in captivity because of space issues and then being released with a disease.I was not talking about human to human diseases.It is just an example of what could happen.
This is a new time and considering the concerns about diseases and the efforts to keep domestic live stock and deer from making contact .Look at all the testing done with large domestic animals and wildlife.
It is hard to say but what would happen to the deer herd if we were allowed to raise and release whitetails.Is this only a concern with big game.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

You support a social tax program for pheasants but are practicing capitalism with private ownership of your land.
Now to be snarky like you I will propose this.I am for the little guy with little money who wants to see a pheasant over his dog so I think we should put an extra tax (10% )on landowners since they are so well off and can afford to own land.We will take this tax collection and release pheasants,create habitat,and make land acquisitions for the little guy at no cost to him so he can have the hunting that we wish for.
We then will be so flush with money that we will make Minnesota's program look like a lemonade stand collection.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

birdhntr said:


> You support a social tax program for pheasants but are practicing capitalism with private ownership of your land.
> Now to be snarky like you I will propose this.I am for the little guy with little money who wants to see a pheasant over his dog so I think we should put an extra tax (10% )on landowners since they are so well off and can afford to own land.We will take this tax collection and release pheasants,create habitat,and make land acquisitions for the little guy at no cost to him so he can have the hunting that we wish for.
> We then will be so flush with money that we will make Minnesota's program look like a lemonade stand collection.


If it went to the DNR for habitat I would pay it all day long. I think my own tax rate is ridiculous compared to how much people pay that make half of what I do.


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

birdhntr said:


> Are you a member of any conservation organizations?


Yes many at different times over the years. Generally not more than 3-4 in a single year. Off the top of my head i have belonged to these over last 20 yrs. Others prior to that.

NWTF
DU
National trappers assoc.
Wild fur shippers councel
Michigan trappers association 
RGS
CBM
BASS
FLW
Michigan bass nation

I also coach a high school fishing team.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

What we all have to do now is have some unity, the stamp is now a reality so I would like to see someone step up and preserve the 25% that is being allocated for habitat. The stamp is going to be a success like the MPHI is so it would be wise to get on the initiatives you have in mind fast because I am sure there are groups ready to snap up the funds so if the few opposed to the effort want to continue to try and stymie the stamp and release program they will end up with nothing or close to it.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

Few opposed? What world are you living in? I myself am going to the governor for a *VETO*. This was a planned attempt with hidden funds from the Senate to implement their *TEA* Pheasant Stamp. This stamp act if for only so many counties, hell yea, make everybody pay for it!


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

Howitzer said:


> What we all have to do now is have some unity, the stamp is now a reality so I would like to see someone step up and preserve the 25% that is being allocated for habitat. The stamp is going to be a success like the MPHI is so it would be wise to get on the initiatives you have in mind fast because I am sure there are groups ready to snap up the funds so if the few opposed to the effort want to continue to try and stymie the stamp and release program they will end up with nothing or close to it.


While I oppose government ran put and take I do understand that 25% of something is more than 100% of nothing. License prices are not expensive in Michigan so if the funds were used appropriately (habitat improvement/management) I see no issue in adding a stamp. I just don’t understand why we (our government) would get involved in simulated hunting. Especially when it takes space on public land. 

What are the long term goals of the program? 

If it’s “successful” and it’s going to expand then more public land is used for this purpose. I see that as a major issue.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

ab5228 said:


> While I oppose government ran put and take I do understand that 25% of something is more than 100% of nothing. License prices are not expensive in Michigan so if the funds were used appropriately (habitat improvement/management) I see no issue in adding a stamp. I just don’t understand why we (our government) would get involved in simulated hunting. Especially when it takes space on public land.
> 
> What are the long term goals of the program?
> 
> If it’s “successful” and it’s going to expand then more public land is used for this purpose. I see that as a major issue.


It's not meant for conservation but capitalism. Long term it is competition with private businesses. It may be far more costly than presumed if the state is liable to those businesses affected. This could be very costly both in the state's economics and lawsuits.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

ab5228 said:


> While I oppose government ran put and take I do understand that 25% of something is more than 100% of nothing. License prices are not expensive in Michigan so if the funds were used appropriately (habitat improvement/management) I see no issue in adding a stamp. I just don’t understand why we (our government) would get involved in simulated hunting. Especially when it takes space on public land.
> 
> What are the long term goals of the program?
> 
> If it’s “successful” and it’s going to expand then more public land is used for this purpose. I see that as a major issue.


Exactly.
The younger generations also see hunting differently.My generation took up bow hunting in the 80's for more time in the woods and to be able to harvest a doe because back then doe tag for gun was rare.That 80"s era had a shift for hunting as archery expanded fast the interest in small game shrank.We went from walking around to spending the whole three months of hunting season chasing deer.
The younger generation prefers archery hunting over gun hunting because it is somewhat primitive and more of a representation of fair chase.
They are the future and I really don't see them interested in a simulated hunt either.
Simple math describes how it will work.
(Example)18,000 licenses sold
Revenues are 450,000 which breaks down to 112,500 for habitat and then 337,500 for birds.
So at 15 a bird that equals 22,500 birds purchased for release.
Not all birds will get harvested and some other programs have a 50% recovery rate due to death and birds leaving public access areas that will eventually die off also.
If we estimate the number of unrecovered birds at 25% that leaves us with 16,875 birds so each of the stamp purchasers are entitled to .80% of one bird.Remember this program is for everyone and to create opportunities so don't get greedy and share.
If we don't have public habitat for pheasants to exist where are we going to find it to release the birds without affecting wild birds populations and not condense hunters and birds in small areas.We have no habitat for wild pheasants so whe dont have it for this program to expand.Maybe they can get well off supporters of the program to enlist their land so we have space for the hunt to take place.That would fit in nicely with the narrative "we are doing this for you little guy"
I do understand the strong feelings everyone has about this topic and our passions for bird hunting that in my belief starts with the dog and not the bird so much.
I don't want my debate to be misunderstood but I feel a lot is being overlooked as it seems to me that this is just being driven,pushed,and plowed through and the engine will blow from being pushed so hard metaphorically speaking and lacking insight.
Grasslands are key.Everytime a pheasant population drops it is due to habitat.Bad weather also hurts the population but with ample amounts of habitat it recovers.
If we don't (EXPAND) habitat needed it is over.Plain and simple to see.This is the same for much of wildlife.Some adapt well like deer,turkey,coyotes,raptors,and most waterfowl but they have different needs and can travel.Small game are related to small areas.

I am disappointed that a stamp isn't required to hunt private land which yet shows the disproportion of such a tax.
Well off private landowners of wealth are excluded yet they can afford it if they can afford land.Which the real problem is land costs effect wildlife and they will never be valuable enough to pay the rent.
I guess now people of lower incomes that are going to feel the financial set backs of late will have to have money to sit at the table and play the game.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

I want to add that the landowner exemption was PFs idea, MPHI is against it. Bill V had his friend who owns 500 acres of prime pheasant ground in Eaton County testified about how the $25 would be a burden. That is on a video I posted earlier this year. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## P. colchicus (Oct 4, 2019)

Howitzer said:


> I want to add that the landowner exemption was PFs idea, MPHI is against it. Bill V had his friend who owns 500 acres of prime pheasant ground in Eaton County testified about how the $25 would be a burden. That is on a video I posted earlier this year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


For the record, PF asked that EITHER:

The stamp only be required for people hunting stocked properties, therefore exempting hunters who hunt non-MPHI public land and/or private land (meaning all private land hunters, not just those who actually own the land)

OR

the fee be reduced to $15 (or thereabouts) if it is to be required of all pheasant hunters.

As currently written, the bill exempts landowners and their immediate family only. This is not what PF asked for. Maybe there was a miscommunication somewhere between PF, MUCC, Gary Howell... Not sure exactly how that was the language that ended up in there. Regardless, that portion of PF’s stance was meant to avoid saddling non-MPHI pheasant hunters with having to pay for a $25 stamp. Only exempting landowners was not the goal... One more thing to chat with your senators about.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Hunters Edge said:


> It's not meant for conservation but capitalism. Long term it is competition with private businesses. It may be far more costly than presumed if the state is liable to those businesses affected. This could be very costly both in the state's economics and lawsuits.


No way. People who go to hunt clubs and pay the fees and memberships wont stop over the putntake hunting on stateland. The hunt club experience is nothing like the putntake hunting. The avg guy that goes to the stateland and hunts wont harvest the number birds in a season that a hunt club hunter will harvest in 4 hrs at a game farm. 

Two issues. No gurantees that any birds will be there and a 2 bird limit. If you are a guy that doesnt mind paying $80-150 a day to go shoot birds in a field by yourself you arent going to stop doing that to pay $25 to share a field with limited to no birds with as many hunters that want to show up. The state is offerring a completely different experience so there is no competition.


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## P. colchicus (Oct 4, 2019)

DirtySteve said:


> No way. People who go to hunt clubs and pay the fees and memberships wont stop over the putntake hunting on stateland. The hunt club experience is nothing like the putntake hunting. The avg guy that goes to the stateland and hunts wont harvest the number birds in a season that a hunt club hunter will harvest in 4 hrs at a game farm.
> 
> Two issues. No gurantees that any birds will be there and a 2 bird limit. If you are a guy that doesnt mind paying $80-150 a day to go shoot birds in a field by yourself you arent going to stop doing that to pay $25 to share a field with limited to no birds with as many hunters that want to show up. The state is offerring a completely different experience so there is no competition.


Not to mention many of the preserves are being paid by the state to raise and release these birds on the stocked sites. So this program actually represents a potential additional revenue source for preserve owners.


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## P. colchicus (Oct 4, 2019)

Hunters Edge said:


> It's not meant for conservation but capitalism. Long term it is competition with private businesses. It may be far more costly than presumed if the state is liable to those businesses affected. This could be very costly both in the state's economics and lawsuits.


Am I missing something, or are you suggesting that this stamp is somehow capitalism in action? Seems to me this is more in line with Bernie’s platform.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

DirtySteve said:


> No way. People who go to hunt clubs and pay the fees and memberships wont stop over the putntake hunting on stateland. The hunt club experience is nothing like the putntake hunting. The avg guy that goes to the stateland and hunts wont harvest the number birds in a season that a hunt club hunter will harvest in 4 hrs at a game farm.
> 
> Two issues. No gurantees that any birds will be there and a 2 bird limit. If you are a guy that doesnt mind paying $80-150 a day to go shoot birds in a field by yourself you arent going to stop doing that to pay $25 to share a field with limited to no birds with as many hunters that want to show up. The state is offerring a completely different experience so there is no competition.


BS It's not only a loss to the businesses but may cause a shortage of birds. If that happens bird prices or their cost goes up making it even less profitable with less available business. If that happens I would almost guarantee lawsuits to offset their losses and in some cases their business. They are already working on just 10.5 months of the year. Subtract 1.8 months losses do to released birds by the state gives them operating 8.2
months to make profit for 12 months.

I think the state would inadvertantly be pulling cash flow from private businesses.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

DirtySteve said:


> No way. People who go to hunt clubs and pay the fees and memberships wont stop over the putntake hunting on stateland. The hunt club experience is nothing like the putntake hunting. The avg guy that goes to the stateland and hunts wont harvest the number birds in a season that a hunt club hunter will harvest in 4 hrs at a game farm.
> 
> Two issues. No gurantees that any birds will be there and a 2 bird limit. If you are a guy that doesnt mind paying $80-150 a day to go shoot birds in a field by yourself you arent going to stop doing that to pay $25 to share a field with limited to no birds with as many hunters that want to show up. The state is offerring a completely different experience so there is no competition.


Which brings us back to the subject of the funding put forth by the stamp.It is quite obvious that it is underfunded at the least and if you harvest one bird your stamp did not cover the cost of said bird.It is obvious to see how under funded it is and this is the same obstacle the state and PF deal with.
MPRI and PF are the only ones that recognize the real issues and I am getting really tired of people blaming them for are problems here in Michigan.
The dollars don't go far.

The ag land goes for 4000 an acre and when tiled to drain it 5000.
So that little slice of heaven you have howitzer is costly and if most is tilable think about that cost comparitive to the wildlife available to harvest.

This is why land acquisitions thru a stamp program or a similar approach would be paramount.A Unity of people of multiple interests could benefit all.I Believe that once the money is used for a purchase and a sign is proudly displayed that this was purchased by the public for the public in an effort to provide wildlife a home and to provide outdoor opportunities that it would only grow expeditiously.The fact is you will see the return on your money until the day you die and it continues on after.
The only pheasant hunting that doesn't cost money is on public land.Or atleast before now.And it still will never be what it once was.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

I guess I was in the blind about the stamp. With me hunting only private land I will not be *FORCED* to buy the stamp. I am all in agreeing to the stamp. Being a collector/speculator I will probably buy four stamps *IF* it is required to sign your stamp to hunt. The Duck stamps increase in value from the day you buy it as long as it is unsigned.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Chessieman said:


> I guess I was in the blind about the stamp. With me hunting only private land I will not be *FORCED* to buy the stamp. I am all in agreeing to the stamp. Being a collector/speculator I will probably buy four stamps *IF* it is required to sign your stamp to hunt. The Duck stamps increase in value from the day you buy it as long as it is unsigned.


I don't believe it is even an actual stamp.It will basically be a license that says pheasant stamp.
Stamps are federal and the states dont have the authority to make a stamp.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

I think it was about 8 years ago the state had a duck stamp. You had the state and federal stamp to waterfowl hunt. If they do not have one they will be loosing some good money.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

P. colchicus said:


> For the record, PF asked that EITHER:
> 
> The stamp only be required for people hunting stocked properties, therefore exempting hunters who hunt non-MPHI public land and/or private land (meaning all private land hunters, not just those who actually own the land)
> 
> ...


No miscommunication at all, watch the testimony. Ask Bill yourself. It was added on the house floor that’s how it got in there. Bill and I spoke about this point last week, I assure you the private land exemption had nothing to do with MUCC or MPHI. If you are being told differently, you have to look at evidenced sources like the testimony. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## FNC (Jun 5, 2007)

birdhntr said:


> Which brings us back to the subject of the funding put forth by the stamp.It is quite obvious that it is underfunded at the least and if you harvest one bird your stamp did not cover the cost of said bird.It is obvious to see how under funded it is and this is the same obstacle the state and PF deal with.
> MPRI and PF are the only ones that recognize the real issues and I am getting really tired of people blaming them for are problems here in Michigan.
> The dollars don't go far.
> 
> ...


The Minnesota model - it works!

Frank


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

An unsustainable thrown down program is folly.
PnT should be tickets, tags, and specific sites. Self supporting. Independent.
When it doesn't work, it stops.
same as it did in the past.

I don't have any positive adjectives to apply to the people behind it.

grassland habitat should be purchased, and be subject to the harrow, and the match.
no one but the public can acquire it and secure it from conversion.

I was sadly surprised at how easily duped our legislator's were.

The end of it will be one of the few positives the revenue collapse at the state due to Coronavirus will generate.

Looking forward to It's failure.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

ab5228 said:


> While I oppose government ran put and take I do understand that 25% of something is more than 100% of nothing. License prices are not expensive in Michigan so if the funds were used appropriately (habitat improvement/management) I see no issue in adding a stamp. I just don’t understand why we (our government) would get involved in simulated hunting. Especially when it takes space on public land.
> 
> What are the long term goals of the program?
> 
> If it’s “successful” and it’s going to expand then more public land is used for this purpose. I see that as a major issue.


What are the long term goals of the program? If its successful is expansion intended?


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Chessieman said:


> I am just going to keep on my property which would not require that Dxxx stamp and put that $25 for the stamp plus 10 times for habitat. Roosters are cackling at my place but I thought I heard a Quail, was I dreaming?


I am confused but didn't the exchanges between you and Howitzer lead us to believe he had birds on his land.

Secondly the dog is putting up thousands of birds on private lands in Michigan and across the country that apparently are all released birds.Hmmm.
One would think mentioning that the success of all those birds was from releasing.

I will be funneling all the money i can into upland habitat organizations on behalf of fellow sportsmen and sportswoman until the day I die.
I am fully convinced that this is where its at.
I have been making new friends and taking them hunting sharing all that I know and I greatly enjoy it.
I took a group out the last day of the year and we moved 40 to 50 birds at least and it was a true testament to what habitat can do.
I only hunt public and many can attest to the fact that they never imagined that they would see action like they did whether it was grouse,woodcock,or pheasants.


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## P. colchicus (Oct 4, 2019)

Howitzer said:


> If the point your making is stocking works you are correct. I stock my property so full you jump 5 birds at a time.
> 
> I have never said habitat is not needed because it’s absolutely essential and as I have said I started out on the habitat side but reality kicked in when I realized that the current state is not working. You have to keep in mind that MPRI money is going to dry up and with the current pandemic it may lose almost all of the funding. So without the millions of dollars from the federal government the pheasant stamp is a lifesaver for habitat.
> 
> ...


You seem to be confusing a lack of vocal opposition, for support. The MPRI steering committee has not taken a stance on the stocking program - folks on the committee range from tepid support for the program to blue-in-the-face opposed. And PF itself is absolutely not in support of the program. Their opposition to stocking programs is spelled out right on their website. They did, however, agree to back off their vocal opposition out of respect for their partners at DNR, who are STATUTORILY required to carry out the program. Make no mistake, the folks running it at DNR wanted nothing to do with this program until the legislature forced them to do so. PF also said they COULD support the stamp if more money was dedicated to habitat, which it is not, so they’re opposed to that as written also. And I struggle to see how that counts as greed. None of that habitat money would go to PF, but rather to DNR field staff to buy seed, knock down brush, and burn grass at game areas.

Additionally, your notion that there are no pheasants on public land in Michigan is just absurd. Don’t get me wrong, we’re not South Dakota, but expecting MI to be like SD is unrealistic. That said, if you can’t find pheasants at our main grassland game areas (not naming names, but I’m sure most of you know what they are anyway) you’re either not trying or your dog ain’t that good!


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

birdhntr said:


> I am confused but didn't the exchanges between you and Howitzer lead us to believe he had birds on his land.
> 
> Secondly the dog is putting up thousands of birds on private lands in Michigan and across the country that apparently are all released birds.Hmmm.
> One would think mentioning that the success of all those birds was from releasing.
> ...


With Howitzer having a half of section (320) I would have to say he still cash crops his land. His land could hold all the optimum conditions. Under his stewardship he could be making heavy fence rows, not farming marginal land and not working ground till spring. I can see how he could develop his half mile to a Pheasant mecca. There would have to be a lot of neighboring property with the right conditions also. A few years ago the DNR was going to try to develop core areas that already had birds, this seemed in the right direction. Now if you are in the county the state MAY help you. On another note, I have not heard yet what our PF is going to help out with this spring, it will not be business as usual.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

I don't know how people come up with their ideas but I never said there are no pheasants in Michigan there are plenty in several areas I am making the point that despite millions in restoration there are still many optimal habitats that do not have birds or do not have enough to pull the gun out of the case. As I said, I have access to a lot of private land of my own and property that my friends own, some have pheasant some don't, some release birds some don't.

Secondly, how I manage my own property is my business and that is why I don't ask for grants or anything else. My personal opinion about all this and a few of you is that you think you are better than most hunters and you want legislation that benefits only you. One of the driving forces for me is the arrogance of so many people that think they are better than other hunters so what works well for them should work for other hunters as well.



P. colchicus said:


> Additionally, your notion that there are no pheasants on public land in Michigan is just absurd. Don’t get me wrong, we’re not South Dakota, but expecting MI to be like SD is unrealistic. That said, if you can’t find pheasants at our main grassland game areas (not naming names, but I’m sure most of you know what they are anyway) you’re either not trying or your dog ain’t that good!


Statements like that energize the hell out of me, I do give you credit because you are the best informed of this entire group and I enjoy reading your posts. We disagree on many of the fundamentals but I don't pass judgment on a person just because they disagree with me, nor do I pass judgments on their dog. I am pretty sure you know who I am but if you don't ask around your group how successful I am, they will all tell you I'm a stone-cold killer and my dog and I possess all the skills needed to find and kill wild birds or anything else I am after.

Last but not least I am asking some of you for help, I am thinking about starting another side initiative that will drive wild bird hunting on state ground. What I am going to do is start a website that highlights area's with wild pheasant in Michigan, my ask is that I get information about SGA's exact areas where to park, and some reviews about the area to assist traveling hunters. What do you think of that?


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

Howitzer said:


> I don't know how people come up with their ideas but I never said there are no pheasants in Michigan there are plenty in several areas I am making the point that despite millions in restoration there are still many optimal habitats that do not have birds or do not have enough to pull the gun out of the case. As I said, I have access to a lot of private land of my own and property that my friends own, some have pheasant some don't, some release birds some don't.
> 
> Secondly, how I manage my own property is my business and that is why I don't ask for grants or anything else. My personal opinion about all this and a few of you is that you think you are better than most hunters and you want legislation that benefits only you. One of the driving forces for me is the arrogance of so many people that think they are better than other hunters so what works well for them should work for other hunters as well.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are da man and should run to be the next dnr bird Specialist since the one we have now is getting up there in age.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

Howitzer, just curious, what type dog are you behind?


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

fordman1 said:


> Sounds like you are da man and should run to be the next dnr bird Specialist since the one we have now is getting up there in age.


As I expected lack of constructive thought leads to personal attacks. What is interesting is almost all of you claim to be all-knowing yet your comments lead to this.

It should be noted that Al and I are good friends and he will attest that we don't agree on everything but I always listen to what he has to say and have the utmost respect for his ability to do a great job pleasing as many groups as possible while maintaining sound management plans. Russ Mason and I are also on the same level, we really go back and forth about his deer management plans but we both respect each other as humans that love the out of doors. The moral of the story is you don't have to hate someone just because they disagree with you, its really the opposite I embrace people with different opinions because they almost always have something worthwhile to think and talk about.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

Chessieman said:


> Howitzer, just curious, what type dog are you behind?


Is this a friendly question or are you joining the others?


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

Friendly question, after all dogs are like the gun you prefer. As in some of my posts I have respect *FOR ALL* the good Pheasant dogs. Takes a lot of work and luck to make a gun dog!


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

Chessieman said:


> Friendly question, after all dogs are like the gun you prefer. As in some of my posts I have respect *FOR ALL* the good Pheasant dogs. Takes a lot of work and luck to make a gun dog!


I'm a chocolate lab man I have had them my entire life and am primarily a duck hunter when the numbers are up, I am entertaining a GSP soon but I currently have too many irons in the fire plus I have enough friends that have pointers so my lab works well and fills the gaps. He's a beast when it comes to hunting anything, he even rounds up the chickens and goats on command. I got lucky as hell with him, I bought him basically sight unseen from a hunter in your area that breeds labs for himself and friends and was in need of cash so he let one go to an outsider (that's me), getting him to sell the dog to me was one of the toughest negotiations of my life.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

My best was a mix of both AKC Lab and Golden retriever. I would go hunting after work, sneak up on the Ducks in my pond. Shoot what was desirable and walk back to get on my deer hunting camouflage. The dog would bring back every Duck that dropped even if I had to wait and have a beer. Wish I had a camera when he was trying to drag back 5 Geese in one load. Biggest trouble was Duck hunting in my pond at first light. We would go after the Roosters afterwards that cackled. Soon after leaving the Duck Blind that dog had the Roosters location already pegged.


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## P. colchicus (Oct 4, 2019)

Howitzer said:


> I don't know how people come up with their ideas but I never said there are no pheasants in Michigan there are plenty in several areas I am making the point that despite millions in restoration there are still many optimal habitats that do not have birds or do not have enough to pull the gun out of the case. As I said, I have access to a lot of private land of my own and property that my friends own, some have pheasant some don't, some release birds some don't.
> 
> Secondly, how I manage my own property is my business and that is why I don't ask for grants or anything else. My personal opinion about all this and a few of you is that you think you are better than most hunters and you want legislation that benefits only you. One of the driving forces for me is the arrogance of so many people that think they are better than other hunters so what works well for them should work for other hunters as well.
> 
> ...


I didn’t intend that last section to come off as snarky as it did. I do get irritated when people dismiss the efforts that DNR and partners have made to make the most of the limited ground we have available to manage for pheasants, and the bit about lack of effort and lousy dogs was meant to be a critique of that group as a whole, not aimed at you specifically. But reading it back, I see how it came off that way. Regardless, I’ve mentioned before that I do see the merits of the program, if run correctly. I understand that there are hunters out there that can’t put forth the effort, or field a good dog to get out and pin down pressured wild birds. I take issue with the pheasant stamp in it’s current form as the funding mechanism, and will vehemently oppose any attempt to expand the program onto our game areas with significant grassland acreage.

Your side initiative is clearly an attempt to shed light and pass judgement on hunters’ unwillingness to share information they’ve spent time and effort figuring out. I have no problem with people being secretive about such information, because anybody can get out and figure it out for themselves with a little effort and time. That said, in the spirit of transparency I’ll reverse course and name names. I don’t get too clever with my public land pheasant hunting. I try to hit Verona, Maple River, Sharonville, Allegan, and Lake Hudson at least a couple times each over the course of a season. My dogs and I move birds at each of these properties damn-near every time out. We don’t always knock one down, but we’re always into them. There are plenty of other properties with birds, according to sources I trust, these are just the ones I go to. I’m not going to type out specific parking areas, because I honestly don’t feel like it, but it isn’t rocket science. If you see tall grass at one of these areas with a DNR parking lot nearby, it’s worth checking out. My notes from the last several seasons show that just under half of my hunting effort has been on state land, with about 40% of total roosters shot coming from those hunts.


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

Howitzer said:


> As I expected lack of constructive thought leads to personal attacks. What is interesting is almost all of you claim to be all-knowing yet your comments lead to this.
> 
> It should be noted that Al and I are good friends and he will attest that we don't agree on everything but I always listen to what he has to say and have the utmost respect for his ability to do a great job pleasing as many groups as possible while maintaining sound management plans. Russ Mason and I are also on the same level, we really go back and forth about his deer management plans but we both respect each other as humans that love the out of doors. The moral of the story is you don't have to hate someone just because they disagree with you, its really the opposite I embrace people with different opinions because they almost always have something worthwhile to think and talk about.


That's why I mentioned it, you are good friends with the right people and you know where the pheasants are and aren't, so you could fix the state. Not sure how much it would cost us though with you steering the ship.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

Chessieman said:


> My best was a mix of both AKC Lab and Golden retriever. I would go hunting after work, sneak up on the Ducks in my pond. Shoot what was desirable and walk back to get on my deer hunting camouflage. The dog would bring back every Duck that dropped even if I had to wait and have a beer. Wish I had a camera when he was trying to drag back 5 Geese in one load. Biggest trouble was Duck hunting in my pond at first light. We would go after the Roosters afterwards that cackled. Soon after leaving the Duck Blind that dog had the Roosters location already pegged.


I have a similar dog, he is unregistered but one of the best dogs I have had. He hunts anything, I believe that its for pure enjoyment of pleasing me because his enthusiasm has earned the nickname Patton insane hunting beast. My wife is an ultathon runner and runs with him daily so he holds up pretty good against the pointers, I think he has about 75% of the stamina a GSP has before he pitters out. The benefit is I can hunt the marsh with him in the morning, hit the fields at noon and he shifts into pheasant mode seamlessly. 

My security camera captured part of this retrieve, I was guiding a couple old guys and they knocked 3 down so my dog grabbed 2 which he always does and went to push number 3 thats what we were laughing at when the video stopped. and the answer is yes, I have cellular HD live security cameras all over the state. I monitor everything 24/7.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

fordman1 said:


> That's why I mentioned it, you are good friends with the right people and you know where the pheasants are and aren't, so you could fix the state. Not sure how much it would cost us though with you steering the ship.


Nobody wants me to run anything at the DNR, I cause too much trouble.


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

Howitzer said:


> Last but not least I am asking some of you for help, I am thinking about starting another side initiative that will drive wild bird hunting on state ground. What I am going to do is start a website that highlights area's with wild pheasant in Michigan, my ask is that I get information about SGA's exact areas where to park, and some reviews about the area to assist traveling hunters. What do you think of that?


Just being clear, this is a joke right? Like a poke at gems?


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

michiganmaniac said:


> Just being clear, this is a joke right? Like a poke at gems?


I value my life too much to do something like that.

Yes joke .


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

Howitzer said:


> I value my life too much to do something like that.
> 
> Yes joke .
> 
> ...


I wish gems were a joke...


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

michiganmaniac said:


> I wish gems were a joke...


lol.aren't they?


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)




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