# Is Tail Docking Animal Torture?



## eaglerock814 (Sep 27, 2005)

Illinois Bill Makes Tail Docking Torture A Felony, PA Docking Bill Reincarnated

PA Puppy Lemon Law Also May Be Strengthened

by JOHN YATES
American Sporting Dog Alliance
http://www.americansportingdogalliance.org
[email protected]

This article is archived at: http://eaglerock814.proboards107.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=18

The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) is taking aim at tail docking, ear cropping and dewclaw removal this year.

An Illinois bill would make tail docking and ear cropping a felony, even if done by a veterinarian. In Pennsylvania, legislation that died last year would have restricted tail docking, ear cropping and dewclaw removal. This bill has been resurrected this year.

Another Pennsylvania bill would strengthen the states puppy Lemon Law.

Tail docking and ear cropping are under assault by the animal rights movement, which sees them as mutilation. The Illinois bill calls it torture.

These common practices have been banned in several European countries, and HSUS and its allies want to see these practices become illegal in America, too.

The American Sporting Dog Alliance strongly supports the right of every breeder to make his or her own choices about tail docking, ear cropping and dewclaw removal. If done correctly, these practice do not harm a young puppy in any way and are extremely safe, virtually painless and also may serve an important purpose for many hunting dogs, terriers, working dogs, guard dogs and herding dogs.

To call the common and traditional practices of tail docking and dewclaw removal torture or mutilation is completely absurd. Quite frankly, anyone who describes these practices in those terms is confessing to appalling ignorance about them, and about dogs.

We are urging dog owners to join us in fighting any legislation that prohibits, criminalizes or overly restricts the responsible and conscientious choices of dog breeders.


Illinois

Current Illinois law specifically excludes tail docking and ear cropping from the crime of animal torture.

However, Senate Bill 0139, introduced by Sen. Terry Link (D-Lake County), removes those exclusions and adds tail docking and ear cropping to the list of acts that would constitute animal torture, which is a third class felony offense.

SB 0139 makes ear cropping a felony in all cases.

Tail docking would become a felony under SB0139 in almost all cases, even if it is performed by a veterinarian. A veterinarian would be allowed to dock a tail only for a medical reason.

Docking for any other reason, such as to assist the dog in hunting or herding, or to conform to the official standard for a particular breed, would be a felony under SB 0139.

Please read this legislation for yourself: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ful...um=139&GAID=10&LegID=40561&SpecSess=&Session= .

SB 0139 is awaiting its committee assignment.

However, we urge Illinois dog owners to take two actions now.

Please contact the Committee on Assignments and ask them to commit SB 0139 to the Agriculture Committee, which would be more sensitive to the concerns of animal owners. Here is contact information for the assignment committee: http://www.ilga.gov/senate/committees/members.asp?committeeID=760 .

Also, please contact your own state senator and ask her or him to oppose this legislation. Here is a list of links for every state senator: http://www.ilga.gov/senate/ .

Pennsylvania

Last year, Rep. Thomas R. Caltagirone (D-Berks County) introduced House Bill 2532, which would have restricted a persons ability to dock tails or clip dewclaws on a litter of young puppies. This legislation died when the session ended before last Christmas. It passed the state House unanimously with 198 yes votes, but died in the Senate Agriculture Committee.

Rep. Caltagirone is back again with the same bill, which now is called HB 39. This bill appears to be moving quickly, as it already has been committed to the House Judiciary Committee and moved to the Appropriations Committee. Rep. Caltagirone is chairman of the Judiciary Committee.

The American Sporting Dog Alliance sees HB 39 as very dangerous legislation because it is based on a series of ambiguities that do not clearly spell out a dog owners responsibilities or provide a clear definition of proof of innocence.

The heart of the measure is that the owner of a litter of puppies can clip dewclaws or dock tails until the puppies are five days old, after which time it legally becomes animal cruelty. The litter owner also can have a veterinarian perform the procedure.

The dangerous ambiguity comes because the bill provides no way for the owner of a litter to prove that tail docking or dewclaw removal was done legally, except if it is done by a veterinarian, who could certify it. Thus, no way is given to a litter owner who legally performs these procedures to prove her or his innocence if he or she is falsely or mistakenly charged with violating this law.

The legislation demands that a litter owner keep a record of the procedure, but does not specify what kind of record must be kept, or what kind of record will be sufficient legal evidence if the litter owner is confronted by an animal cruelty police officer or is taken to court on a charge of animal cruelty.

This alone makes it very dangerous and poorly conceived legislation.

HB 39 also says that the evidence of an unhealed wound from tail docking or dewclaw removal is prima facie evidence of a violation of the animal cruelty statutes. Prima facie means that an accused person is automatically guilty and has no defense against the charge.

This creates many gray areas. First, it may take several days for the wound to completely heal, which could be beyond the fifth day. Second, many people could not actually prove how old their puppies are in court, unless there was a witness to the whelping.

Thus, the American Sporting Dog Alliance believes that HB 39 is a backdoor attempt to require a veterinarian to perform all tail docking or dewclaw removal procedures, as there would be no other way for a litter owner to prove they were done legally in court.

HB 39 also creates a very real and very dangerous situation for anyone whose dog loses a tail accidentally. With hunting dogs that move with a merry and cracking tail, for example, broken tails are not uncommon. Sometimes the part of the tail that is above the break atrophies and falls off, leaving exposed flesh until healing is complete. This would subject the dogs owner to a charge of animal cruelty for a purely accidental event of a dogs tail whipping against a rock or tree.

Also, on occasion, a puppys tail can be broken in the womb or shortly after birth by its mother. These kinds of broken tails almost always atrophy and fall off when the puppy is several weeks or months old.

Many other dogs lose their tails accidentally by having them caught in car or house doors, stepped on, or struck by a hard and heavy object such as a falling tree limb. A legitimate accident should not be the basis for a possible animal cruelty charge.

Moreover, the entire concept of a dog owner being forced to prove her or his innocence runs against the most basic American principle of justice: That a person is presumed to be innocent unless guilt can be proven in court. It is unconstitutional and un-American to force people into a legal situation of having to prove their own innocence.

Like most animal rights-inspired legislation, HB 39 attempts to use a sensationalized issue to garner support. In the case of HB 39, the issue is debarking. Animal rights activists claim that some commercial kennels debark dogs by breaking their vocal chords with a pipe or other object.

Simply put, we have never seen or even heard of anyone doing this. Nor have we seen the slightest shred of proof to indicate that this is being done in commercial kennels or anywhere else as anything more than an isolated and rare incident.

We abhor the animal rights group tactic of using an emotionally charged but almost nonexistent problem to try to push through legislation to take away dog owners rights to perform common, safe and painless procedures like docking the tails of young puppies.

Comparing tail docking to debarking is even more far-fetched than comparing apples to oranges. Its more like comparing apples to chainsaws.

HB 39 amends current law, which already contains similar provisions for ear cropping. Ear cropping must be done only by a veterinarian, or the work performed before the effective date of the act and certified before a county treasure, under existing law.

We believe this section of the law should be repealed, as many people buy or are given a dog that has had its ears cropped, but have no way of proving that the work was done legally. In addition, many people bring dogs with cropped ears into Pennsylvania from other states where the laws are different. It is wrong to place law-abiding people in the cruel situation of having to part with or euthanize a beloved family pet because of a poorly conceived law.

Also, the ear cropping law would do tremendous harm to rescue work and animal shelter adoptions, because few if any dogs that would come into such a program would have the required proof that ear cropping was done legally. Most of these dogs are strays or pets that have been abandoned, or dogs that have been confiscated from illegal kennels. The absence of a veterinarians certificate would offer only one choice under the law: Euthanize the dog or face possible animal cruelty charges.

That is not fair to the dogs that enter rescue or sheltering programs. These dogs have a tough enough time finding loving homes.

SB 39 also would give state dog wardens the legal authority to enforce animal cruelty laws in counties that have not appointed a humane society police officer. Under current law, dog wardens cannot enforce animal cruelty laws.

Many areas of Pennsylvania do not have an officially designated animal cruelty officer. Sometimes, this is because a trained officer is not available.

However, over the past year there has been much dissention within the ranks of animal cruelty police officers and the Pennsylvania Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, which administers the law enforcement program. Many humane police officers have been fired or have quit over the past year, and state dog wardens have reported that many counties do not have anyone to handle cruelty cases.

We question whether the state Bureau of Dog Law Enforcement has the manpower to do this job, especially in light of last years complicated new kennel and dog law, which has severely strained the Bureaus resources. It also may cause all of the conflicts and problems associated with the expression, too many cooks in the kitchen.

Please read this legislation for yourself: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs...d=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0039&pn=0031 .

If last year is a measure, HB 39 can be expected to garner considerable support in the state House of Representatives.

The American Sporting Dog Alliance is urging every Pennsylvania dog owner to contact members of the Judiciary and Appropriations committees, and also his or her own representative, to voice opposition to HB 39.

Here is a link to all representatives home pages and contact information: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/representatives_alpha.cfm .

Here is a link to members of the Judiciary Committee: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/cteeInfo/cteeInfo.cfm?cde=24&body=H . Comments should include the legal problems presented by this legislation, and the lack of a clear standard of proof of guilt or innocence.

Here is a link to members of the Appropriations Committee: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/cteeInfo/cteeInfo.cfm?cde=4&body=H . Comments should include the costs of enforcing and prosecuting this law, as this is the job of the Appropriations Committee.

HB 39 was cosponsored by Reps. Adolph, Belfanti, Beyer, Brennan, Buxton, D. Costa, Fabrizio, Frankel, Freeman, Goodman, Grucela, Hornaman, Killion, Kortz, Manderino, Mann, M. OBrien, ONeill, Pashinsky, Payne, Readshaw, Samuelson, Santoni, Siptroth, Sturla, Swanger, Vulakovich, Watson, White and Walco.

If your representative is a cosponsor, please ask him or her to withdraw support for HB 39.

PA Puppy Lemon Law

Senate Bill 50, introduced by Sen. Stewart Greenleaf (R-Bucks and Montgomery Counties), enhances protections both for puppy buyers and breeders under Pennsylvanias current Puppy Lemon Law.

The American Sporting Dog Alliance generally supports this bill.

Here are some of the changes:

·	Buyer protection: Extends the period from 10 to 14 days after the date of purchase for a puppy buyer to have a dog examined that has become clinically ill or has died from a contagious, infectious or parasitic disease.

·	Buyer protection: Current law says that a breeder must reimburse the buyer for the reasonable cost of curing the disease. This bill adds treating the disease to the cost of reimbursement.

·	Buyer protection: It expands the covered timeframe for a dog that has died of a genetic or congenital disease from 30 to 90 days. 

·	Breeder protection: Liability will not be extended for puppies that have internal or external parasites, unless the dog is clinically ill or dies from them.

·	Breeder protection: A breeder is not liable for a dog that becomes sick or dies from an injury or illness likely contacted while in possession of the purchaser.

·	Breeder protection: A breeder will not be liable for any medical problem that was fully disclosed to the purchaser in writing before the sale.

·	Buyer protection: The time limit to report a problem to the breeder was extended from two days to five days.

Here is a link to the text of this legislation: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/dtsear...req=kennel&mindx=20090txt&fc=2&ndoc=0&nPage=1 .

SB 50 has been introduced into the Senate Consumer Protection and Special Licensure Committee. No action has been taken to date.

The American Sporting Dog Alliance represents owners, breeders and professionals who work with breeds of dogs that are used for hunting. We also welcome people who work with other breeds, as legislative issues affect all of us. We are a grassroots movement working to protect the rights of dog owners, and to assure that the traditional relationships between dogs and humans maintains its rightful place in American society and life.

The American Sporting Dog Alliance also needs your help so that we can continue to work to protect the rights of dog owners. Your membership, participation and support are truly essential to the success of our mission. We are funded solely by your donations in order to maintain strict independence.

Please visit us on the web at http://www.americansportingdogalliance.org . Our email is [email protected] .

PLEASE CROSS-POST AND FORWARD THIS REPORT TO YOUR FRIENDS


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2006)

Just ask any of them if they are circumsized, and whats the difference?


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Just ask any of them if they are circumsized, and whats the difference?


It's all about how it's done. I've seen enough botched jobs in my short time to say that yes, at times, it is torture. But by no means does it have to be. (tail docks, not circumsissions ) 

I see no reason whatsoever that ear crops should continue to be done. However, I'd rather see them legal, and thus give veterinary professionals the option of doing it CORRECTLY than see them illegal and have them done in garages, redone by vets later.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

snowman11 said:


> It's all about how it's done. I've seen enough botched jobs in my short time to say that yes, at times, it is torture. But by no means does it have to be. (tail docks, not circumsissions )
> 
> I see no reason whatsoever that ear crops should continue to be done. However, I'd rather see them legal, and thus give veterinary professionals the option of doing it CORRECTLY than see them illegal and have them done in garages, redone by vets later.


 
I do my own tails at 3 days old it takes me less than 1 min per puppy and they don't even feel it. They protest when you pick them up not when I do the procedure. I used to have a breed with cropped ears they were always done by the vet, not anything I would even attempt!

I have seen happy tail and know that I don't ever want to see it again.


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## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

Gina Fox said:


> I do my own tails at 3 days old it takes me less than 1 min per puppy and they don't even feel it. They protest when you pick them up not when I do the procedure. I used to have a breed with cropped ears they were always done by the vet, not anything I would even attempt!
> 
> I have seen happy tail and know that I don't ever want to see it again.


Happy tail.....the nightmares. :sad:


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## fishbuster (Jan 2, 2005)

i know of a litter of brits born this past spring. 4 with tails 5 without. people need to get a life. freedom gets more expensive every day:sad:


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

fishbuster said:


> ........... people need to get a life...........:


For the folks at HSUS this is their life. It will take constant diligence during the next 4 years to keep up with these auger heads.


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

but that's the whole point, you do them at day three, when they are supposed to be done.

it's the idiots that wait til six weeks (or even longer) of age then drop a calf band on there that i wanna shoot.


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## geojasstef (Jan 23, 2005)

I don't know about "torture" but if not done correctly it sure can be curel.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

neitlher of those things are necessary. there are probably far more breeds that dont have either of those procedures than do. i've heard a lot of rationalizations, but i dont think any of them hold water. they are done because that is the fashion or style. no other reason. if your dog cant get through the brush without tangling his tail, he's got a problem. and a lot of those dogs dont see any brush, maybe shag carpet, that's about it.

HSUS is just looking for weak spots to attack. if you defend them, they will use it against you. wait until they start showing television spots of dogs getting their ears carved up. the public isnt going to like that.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

Unpopular, but true.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

dogwhistle said:


> neitlher of those things are necessary. there are probably far more breeds that dont have either of those procedures than do. i've heard a lot of rationalizations, but i dont think any of them hold water. they are done because that is the fashion or style. no other reason. if your dog cant get through the brush without tangling his tail, he's got a problem. and a lot of those dogs dont see any brush, maybe shag carpet, that's about it.
> 
> HSUS is just looking for weak spots to attack. if you defend them, they will use it against you. wait until they start showing television spots of dogs getting their ears carved up. the public isnt going to like that.


Right on the money.

People forget where these things come from. Something like tail docking makes sense if you live in a time where antibiotics don't exist (like 1900), quality dogs are a luxury, and you need the dog to work, not recover from wounds.

I'm not saying anything against it. As a preventative measure it has some merit, but at this time, in this day in age, people can make an argument to say it's not necessary. Long tail or docked tail, a GSP can still hunt.


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## eaglerock814 (Sep 27, 2005)

The animal rights people are essentially religious fanatics. They will quit only if the tide of America turns solidly against them, and they finally get tired of banging their heads against a brick wall.

Think of Osama bin Laden...same fanaticism...same irrational thought patterns...same irrational zealotry...same ruthlessness.

Think also of yourself, your spouse and your children. Male babies routinely get circumcized, even though some people say it's pointless...little girls routinely get their ears pierced (and many other places, too, that we won't mention)...and people get tatoos, cosmetic surgery, breast enhancements, tummy tucks and facelifts.

Each of us can question the wisdom of those procedures on humans...and that's our opinion. But, it is absurd to think that docking a puppy's tail is illegal, when your daughter can get a 12-inch tatoo of a dragon on her leg.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Right on the money.
> 
> People forget where these things come from. Something like tail docking makes sense if you live in a time where antibiotics don't exist (like 1900), quality dogs are a luxury, and you need the dog to work, not recover from wounds.
> 
> I'm not saying anything against it. As a preventative measure it has some merit, but at this time, in this day in age, people can make an argument to say it's not necessary. Long tail or docked tail, a GSP can still hunt.


 
Obviously none of you have ever been familiar on a regular basis with 'happy tail' It is NOT easy to prevent and the dogs usually end up getting their tails docked. If I recall not to long ago one of the M-S members had a l/w pointer that had to have his tail docked...

The point is not whether it is right or wrong (IMHO) the point is that HSUS which has NO clue about anything, is trying to take away a long held tradition born out of necessity, because they 'perceive' it as cruel. 

Incrementally is where they will 'get' you folks...they start dictating what is cruel or torturous and where will they stop??? Bow hunters? Spear fisherman? Trappers? Hunters in general...it is about protecting your rights. Once they define tail docking or ear cropping as 'cruelty' to animals or cosmetic they will be spurred on to take it to the next level. 
I don't care for ear cropping...but I don't want to see folks lose their right to do it. I want it done in a Veterinary clinic because that is where it SHOULD be done. 

HSUS is no friend to sportsman. They are in BED with P_e_ta. They do not want you to harm Thumper or Bambi...wake up.

Know your enemies folks. This is an issue they are floating to get the general public on their side...it will escalate from there. If you do not support the battle against these legislations pretty soon it will be too late.


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

Is it cruel? On some breeds, it's cruel not too. DD DK and their american cousins to name a few. Cropping ears has alot of practical applications as well. For dogs like the Doberman Pinscher, and the Giant schnauser. It eliminates two hand holds that can be used to control the dogs head when he's trying to do his job.

The animal right whacko's are just that. It's very hard to argue with emotional foolishness. They have made great strides in Europe. Here, we'll be hardpressed to stop them if we can't all get on the same page.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

First they came for the ear croppers and I did nothing, I wasn't an ear cropper. Next they came for the tail dockers and I didn't say anything, I wasn't a tail docker................................


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2006)

IMO I could care less as I don't have a short tail dog, and probably never will, however, this comes down to more a matter of principal. As hehi is saying, you give them this, then they build on it, and then they go after something else. What if it starts being cruel to remove dew claws, or tag cattle ear, or spay/neuter animals? Everytime they get an inch they try and get a mile. Should there be some guidelines? Probably, should it be illegal, probably not.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Mickey Finn said:


> The animal right whacko's are just that. It's very hard to argue with emotional foolishness. They have made great strides in Europe. Here, we'll be hardpressed to stop them if we can't all get on the same page.


Not arguing, just wanting to point out something. In many parts of Europe hunting is a rich man's game. It's not something you'll find the average person doing like you do here without a significant dent being made to their pocket book since many areas hunted are on private land. Add heavy taxes on weapons, regulations on them, etc etc. It should be no surprise that laws against ear cropping and tail docking have been able to go into effect there since the vast vast majority of people there don't hunt, don't own dogs that hunt, and thereby couldn't care less what the reason is behind either practice. 

Side note, again just pointing out a fact. Doberman's may have both done for the reasons previously stated, but police German Shephards and Belgian Malinois somehow seem to do their jobs taking down crooks without either being done.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Not arguing, just wanting to point out something. In many parts of Europe hunting is a rich man's game. It's not something you'll find the average person doing like you do here without a significant dent being made to their pocket book since many areas hunted are on private land. Add heavy taxes on weapons, regulations on them, etc etc. It should be no surprise that laws against ear cropping and tail docking have been able to go into effect there since the vast vast majority of people there don't hunt, don't own dogs that hunt, and thereby couldn't care less what the reason is behind either practice.
> 
> Side note, again just pointing out a fact. Doberman's may have both done for the reasons previously stated, but police German Shephards and Belgian Malinois somehow seem to do their jobs taking down crooks without either being done.


Not sure, but I think the German Shepards have naturally erect ears, check me if I'm wrong here German Shepard owners. 

Now who can find and post that video of the police dog jumping the car and taking down the crook?


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

Yeah, westcoasthunter, your post doesn't make alot of sense. I sent you a P.M. to give you a glimpse of our future. Take sometime and browse their site. Then come back ready to fight for our rights.

Take care.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Side note, again just pointing out a fact. Doberman's may have both done for the reasons previously stated, but police German Shephards and Belgian Malinois somehow seem to do their jobs taking down crooks without either being done.


 
Their ears naturally stand up.....


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Gina Fox said:


> Their ears naturally stand up.....


And you can't pull on pointy ears?


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Easy there. My point, not well written I must admit, is that it's a difficult thing to fight because there are so many people out there who don't have a bone in the fight and/or that there are lots of dogs that people can see don't have these things done to.



Mickey Finn said:


> Yeah, westcoasthunter, your post doesn't make alot of sense. I sent you a P.M. to give you a glimpse of our future. Take sometime and browse their site. Then come back ready to fight for our rights.
> 
> Take care.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

I happen to be the owner of a long-tailed GSP, only because she came to me that way at 12 weeks. If the breeder had given me the choice to make, I probably would have had it docked, simply because it's the standard.

My GSP has a bum front leg from an accident when she was about 6 months old. When she had the cast on, she very obviously used her tail to stay balanced, and even now she wags it in a circular motion rather than back and forth, which keeps her balanced as she's a little bit of a tripod. I think they have tails for a reason...

On the flip side, my EP has speckled our wallpaper with blood from various "happy tail" incidents. Mike (Findthebird) has a short-tailed EP for that reason. Why docking is the standard for GSPs but not EPs is beyond me. I would hate to lose the ability to dock a tail for health reasons or even for preventative reasons.

At the end of the day, I see it in the same light as the statewide smoking ban: leave it up to consumers. If people want doctored up dogs, let'em. If they don't, let'em vote with their dollars. 

It makes me very sad to live in a society in which we have to cram our ideas down each others' throats using legislation, rather than engaging in a dialog with each other to educate and change behavior. Makes me want to pack my dogs and move up to the northwoods to be a hermit...

KW


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

I can remember running across some European tail injury statistics within the last year from before and after tail docking bans went into effect--I don't remember the exact numbers, but the post-ban numbers were significantly higher.
That said, I've heard of amputions with pointers, but not many, and I don't recall ever hearing it happen to a setter. I think my dog was simply an extreme case, with the medical treatment bobbled by both the owner:gaga: and his vet.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

that is my goal...go live in the woods! with that said ..

Someone had posted that the Dobes ears are cropped to do guard work...Not my breed so I do not know if that why cropping started but when I read it, it made sense. I for one would not want to TRY and grab the ears on a Shep or Malinois trained for shutzhund work...
The whole point of this discussion is people imposing their misguided views on others. Hunting, fishing and trapping if you haven't noticed are prime targets! 
So if you do any of those you should really take an interest in this type of regulation, because it WILL have a trickle down affect.
It is the FREEDOM to make our own decisions that is at stake. Because it will start with smoking bans in restaurants (ok by me) and escalate to smoking bans in your own home, which is not ok by me...it is happening now. 

Good intentions by the uninformed gone awry...because obviously we the people are to stupid to make our own decisions.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

FindTheBird said:


> I can remember running across some European tail injury statistics within the last year from before and after tail docking bans went into effect--I don't remember the exact numbers, but the post-ban numbers were significantly higher.
> That said, I've heard of amputions with pointers, but not many, and I don't recall ever hearing it happen to a setter. I think my dog was simply an extreme case, with the medical treatment bobbled by both the owner:gaga: and his vet.


 
Not like we should be modeling ourselves after the Europeans in any way, shape or form. The EU is a perfect example of government gone bad...the Animal Rights Activists have gone crazy over there...and they are fast gaining ground here.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

k9wernet said:


> And you can't pull on pointy ears?


Go get chased by a police dog and try it. . .please post the results of your experiment.:lol:


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Gina Fox said:


> I do my own tails at 3 days old it takes me less than 1 min per puppy and they don't even feel it. They protest when you pick them up not when I do the procedure. I used to have a breed with cropped ears they were always done by the vet, not anything I would even attempt!
> 
> I have seen happy tail and know that I don't ever want to see it again.


Roger that, Gina.

In a former life we raised Britts. I've done the tails and dewclaws of dozens of litters of Britts and other Continental breeds on Day 2 after whelping. Its simple, safe and pain free. A few simple instruments and a little instruction would enable any experienced breeder to do the same.

Those people in the state houses are NUTS!:rant:

NB


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

a person can rationalize almost anything. i supervised a number of police K9's aand the last thing you will think of is grabbing a dogs ears to prevent a bite. i've laid down lots of tracks for the k9's and taken lots of bites. even with a heavily padded sleeve it's not fun. to my knowledge, dobermans are never used for this type of work. german shepards used to be the dog of choice, now there are lots of melanois.(sp?) a friend of mine had the most famous and successful tracking dog in this state. a golden retrieverr named bounce. no ear cropping or tail docking there.

i often drive by a kennel that raises boxers. they are always running around with their ears wrapped and their tails docked. they are raised for pets or companions. there is no reason to crop or dock except it's the fashion.

all my dogs crack their tails and bloody them, they bloody their tongues too on the bracken fern. they dont get infected. mikes dog was a rare occurrance. people get infections in their limbs, especially their feet and have to have them amputated. but we dont cut off feet to prevent it.

i'm no fan of HSUS or PETA. but in this case they have a valid point. and you have to pick your battles and choose your ground. and here, they have the high ground.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Gina Fox said:


> the Animal Rights Activists have gone crazy over there...and they are fast gaining ground here.


Agreed... Despite what I said in my former post about legislation, I think outdoorsmen (and women) need to get proactive, enacting legislation to PROTECT our rights, before they are all stripped away. Some kind of "Hunters' Bill of Rights"... Unfortunately, we're a pretty lethargic group compared to HSUS, so I don't see that kind of thing ever happening.

KW


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## Wendy (Oct 6, 2008)

The breed of dog I have has both cropped ears (almost fully cropped was one variation) and docked tails. I have some that don't have the ears cropped and they are a constant battle with ear infections. My dogs are a utilitarian working breed that should be worked in some fashion...i've chosen obedience/protection work with some of mine. They manage just fine with their type of tail docking (4th vert) in regards to balance etc... if the dog grew up with his tail docked they can compensate for this. Dogs are very adaptable.

I prefer to have them kept to the standard they were designed for. Yes alot of it is for looks, but for some dogs and jobs you have them do, cropping/docking is necessary to protect the dog from injury (including myself from being beaten by those darn mastiff tails). For a century or protection dog, the cropped ears vs floppy can make them look far more intimidating, thats part of the dogs job.

*

Yes shepards have erect ears which they can maneuver back out of the way close to their heads, floppy eared dogs cannot do this. Even for a shepard, if their temperment or training is not that good, they can be intimidated by an ear grab. However, they should be conditioned to do the work while having ears grabbed, eyes poked etc. (and I've seen plenty of police dogs that should not be doing the work)

*

Point is, there are many people who still properly utilze the breed of dogs they have. The dog was cropped or docked for reasons to protect the dog from himself or his job, not to be crewl. Yes the majority of people who have dogs (frankly shouldn't have them anyway) don't need them cropped or docked. When I bred my dogs, I left the ear cropping up to the owner of the puppy. The tails were docked at 3 days.

*

Thanks for the post and information. If you give these people an inch, they'll take the whole mile. The ultimate agenda for these people is to eliminate breeding and ownership of animals, hunting and fishing etc..and they're doing it a little piece at a time.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> Agreed... Despite what I said in my former post about legislation, I think outdoorsmen (and women) need to get proactive, enacting legislation to PROTECT our rights, before they are all stripped away. Some kind of "Hunters' Bill of Rights"... Unfortunately, we're a pretty lethargic group compared to HSUS, so I don't see that kind of thing ever happening.
> 
> KW


i think you are right in a general sense. but the anti groups have a "cause" that reallly helps them raise huge amounts of money. peta wanted to air commercials during the superbowl? what would that have cost? the pro hunting groups dont have that kind of money. until the hunting groups unite behind a common cause and become proactive, they will never encite people in the way the antis do. i bet hsus and peta dont hold banquets and raffles to raise money.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

dogwhistle said:


> all my dogs crack their tails and bloody them, they bloody their tongues too on the bracken fern. they dont get infected. mikes dog was a rare occurrance. people get infections in their limbs, especially their feet and have to have them amputated. but we dont cut off feet to prevent it.
> 
> i'm no fan of HSUS or PETA. but in this case they have a valid point. and you have to pick your battles and choose your ground. and here, they have the high ground.


They do not have the high ground. They simply want to take our dogs, both yours and mine, away from us and outlaw hunting at the same time too.

You may not have had merry tail problems with "your dogs" but I seen many that have in other parts of the country. Some had to be amputated- so its not "rare" IME. The cover here in Michigan is child's play compared to the MFR hedges in NY-NJ-PA or the brier patches in the South. You need to get out there more. 

People who have to have foot amputations are diabetics who dont take care of themselves. They have PAD and diabetic neuropathy. Comparing them to long tailed hunting dogs is ridiculous.

Natty B.


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## Birddog8487 (Jul 10, 2006)

dogwhistle said:


> a person can rationalize almost anything. i supervised a number of police K9's aand the last thing you will think of is grabbing a dogs ears to prevent a bite. i've laid down lots of tracks for the k9's and taken lots of bites. even with a heavily padded sleeve it's not fun. to my knowledge, dobermans are never used for this type of work. german shepards used to be the dog of choice, now there are lots of melanois.(sp?) a friend of mine had the most famous and successful tracking dog in this state. a golden retrieverr named bounce. no ear cropping or tail docking there.
> 
> i often drive by a kennel that raises boxers. they are always running around with their ears wrapped and their tails docked. they are raised for pets or companions. there is no reason to crop or dock except it's the fashion.
> 
> ...


You must keep all your dogs outside. I have a GSP and a pointer outside and a mastiff and English cocker inside. My old pointer from Ferrel Miller's kennels used to crack her tail so hard she would be spattered in blood after a hunting or training session. If she tore it up enough we had to take her out of commission for awhile. My little cocker has two or three times the tail action of any pointer I've ever seen and I would sure hate to see what the walls, furniture, and bedding in the house would look like if we couldn't dock those tails. 

What strikes me as funny is people manipulate themselves cosmetically through plastic surgery all the time. They get tummy tucks, boob jobs, nose, ear, butt, etc.. and no one raises a fuss. Heck, I'd say judging by the popularity of the Go Daddy commercials many of us even admire their work, but were all going to get worked up over someone docking some puppy tails to keep a dog from beating himself bloody. Amazing.


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Not arguing, just wanting to point out something. In many parts of Europe hunting is a rich man's game. It's not something you'll find the average person doing like you do here without a significant dent being made to their pocket book since many areas hunted are on private land. Add heavy taxes on weapons, regulations on them, etc etc. It should be no surprise that laws against ear cropping and tail docking have been able to go into effect there since the vast vast majority of people there don't hunt, don't own dogs that hunt, and thereby couldn't care less what the reason is behind either practice.
> 
> Side note, again just pointing out a fact. Doberman's may have both done for the reasons previously stated, but police German Shephards and Belgian Malinois somehow seem to do their jobs taking down crooks without either being done.


I had a dobie without cropped ears and they're big. Picture hound or maybe GSP ears.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i do keep them outside. but it wouldnt matter if i didnt. by the time that we get home they are all healed up anyway. doesnt take long if they dont keep whacking them against something.

the pointer and setter owners dont seem to have any problem with all this. i've only seen two, one is mikes dog and the other was from quite a while ago. he was in a small kennel and kept whacking or catching on the wire.

as far as what humans do, they choose to do that to themselves. and it is all "fashion", people dont get those rings through their lip for any practical reason. and i dont buy all the reasons for this either.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Birddog8487 said:


> What strikes me as funny is people manipulate themselves cosmetically through plastic surgery all the time. They get tummy tucks, boob jobs, nose, ear, butt, etc.. and no one raises a fuss...


I don't disagree on the issue, but you're logic doesn't quite work out. The difference is choice. Adult humans choose plastic surgery, dogs have the decision made for them -- having elective procedures done TO them. Now I may be old school, but I see my dogs as something closer to property than people, so I have no problem with people making that decision and having those procedures being done. However, you're not going to make any headway against the activists with your argument. 

Ironicly, those are the likely same people who don't have any problem with adult humans making the choice to end the lives of unborn humans, but I won't open that can of worms... or did I just do it? 

KW


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## Mr. 16 gauge (Jan 26, 2000)

> i'm no fan of HSUS or PETA.


Coulda fooled me by your statements.....guess you'll fall right in line when they decry e collars and shooting training birds as 'cruel'.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

dogwhistle said:


> i'm no fan of HSUS or PETA. but in this case they have a valid point. and you have to pick your battles and choose your ground. and here, they have the high ground.



OK, I want to pick DOVE HUNTING!! 

It is attitudes like this from "hunters" that made that proposal fail.:yikes:


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

comparing me to the animal rightest is quite ridiculous. it's the kind of personal thing that people say when they dont have an arguement. it's called the straw man arguement. the other is a variation on the domino arguement, another false arguement. 

i think for myself. most hunting dogs live a healthy life without getting their ears or tails cut. the only real reason people do it is for the same reason that they pierce and tattoo themselves- cosmetic or appearance. and custom. other things such as ecollars can be argued on their own merits.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Looks like the anti's are definitely establishing their foothold. Even in here!!???!

I last saw evidence of this during the Dove Hunt Debacle.:rant: Further evidence that many sportsmen are only interested in themslelves.

If "their" personal interests or values aren't negatively impacted by legislation, they are perfectly willing to sit back and watch their fellow sportsmans rights become nullified.

Michigan is a weak state for sportsmans rights. If hunters and fishermen put as much energy into activism as they do infighting- the next generation might have a shot at continuing our outdoor heritage...but I definitely wont be holding my breath.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

NEMichsportsman said:


> Looks like the anti's are definitely establishing their foothold. Even in here!!???!
> 
> I last saw evidence of this during the Dove Hunt Debacle.:rant: Further evidence that many sportsmen are only interested in themslelves.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

"Picking your battles" is a form of appeasement...You cannot rationalize with those people. So you need to stand firm on your principals and do battle no matter how insignificant you might think the issue is and whether or not you believe it will affect the bigger picture or not later down the line, because it will.


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## Birddog8487 (Jul 10, 2006)

k9wernet said:


> I don't disagree on the issue, but you're logic doesn't quite work out. The difference is choice. Adult humans choose plastic surgery, dogs have the decision made for them -- having elective procedures done TO them. Now I may be old school, but I see my dogs as something closer to property than people, so I have no problem with people making that decision and having those procedures being done. However, you're not going to make any headway against the activists with your argument.
> 
> Ironicly, those are the likely same people who don't have any problem with adult humans making the choice to end the lives of unborn humans, but I won't open that can of worms... or did I just do it?
> 
> KW


What part of a domesticated animals life is open to choice? We pick their food, living conditions, discipline, and level of socialization. Even if tail-docking and ear cropping were purely cosmetic, and I dont agree that they are, does that really raise to the level of cruelty? Is there some kind of long term physical or psychological damage from these procedures. Personally, I dont think so.
As far as the human argument goes. The point I was trying to make, very poorly admittedly, was that cosmetic procedures are commonly accepted in humans. Even infants and young children have procedures from circumcision to mole or birth mark removal and ear piercings done TO them MAINLY for cosmetic reasons and there is no great hew and cry. I wont throw my lot in with a group of people that seem to be more concerned with animal welfare than they are human welfare. If some on this board want to, that is their right I just dont agree with them.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Birddog8487 said:


> What part of a domesticated animals life is open to choice? We pick their food, living conditions, discipline, and level of socialization. Even if tail-docking and ear cropping were purely cosmetic, and I dont agree that they are, does that really raise to the level of cruelty? Is there some kind of long term physical or psychological damage from these procedures. Personally, I dont think so.
> As far as the human argument goes. The point I was trying to make, very poorly admittedly, was that cosmetic procedures are commonly accepted in humans. Even infants and young children have procedures from circumcision to mole or birth mark removal and ear piercings done TO them MAINLY for cosmetic reasons and there is no great hew and cry. I wont throw my lot in with a group of people that seem to be more concerned with animal welfare than they are human welfare. If some on this board want to, that is their right I just dont agree with them.


All good points, but remember that you're dealing with people who put animals' lives on the same level -- or even consider them MORE valuable -- than human life. To compare animal procedures to human procedures, or to talk to them about the "normal" life of a domestic animal is pointless because they are of the philosphy that there should be no domesticated animals. They'll jump on any hole in your argument and try to make holes where there aren't any. My point (also poorly made) was that you can't try to rationalize with animal rights radicals because they are by their nature irrational. You and I are in agreement... And PETA and HSUS are CRAZY!

The best plan is to protect our rights BEFORE they are attacked, but as mentioned above, I don't think the sportsmen of this state are willing to be that proactive.

KW


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## troutchops (Apr 15, 2005)

NEMichsportsman said:


> Looks like the anti's are definitely establishing their foothold. Even in here!!???!
> 
> I last saw evidence of this during the Dove Hunt Debacle.:rant: Further evidence that many sportsmen are only interested in themselves.
> 
> ...


Good post.

There is a far larger problem than just dog's having a tail cropped. At the moment there is way too much dissension within the ranks of sportsman. It seems like even very specialized subgroups of the sporting community are in-fighting. The three outdoor sports I like bow hunting, fly fishing and upland hunting are all fighting among themselves. Crossbow vs Compound vs Recurve, Fly Fisherman vs Canoeist vs Bait Fisherman. I would comment on this thread, but I have a hard time even following the thought process of some of the posters . With our ranks shrinking, I worry what my kids will have left. Maybe just some old pictures, a handful of guns they can't use and a stinky old hunting cabin that's empty every fall .  AHHHH...back to work


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## Mr. 16 gauge (Jan 26, 2000)

> comparing me to the animal rightest is quite ridiculous. it's the kind of personal thing that people say when they dont have an arguement. it's called the straw man arguement. the other is a variation on the domino arguement, another false arguement.
> 
> i think for myself. most hunting dogs live a healthy life without getting their ears or tails cut. the only real reason people do it is for the same reason that they pierce and tattoo themselves- cosmetic or appearance. and custom. other things such as ecollars can be argued on their own merits.


Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, cupcake.....I wanna see you argue the 'merits' of e collars with your buddies in Peta and the HSUS......*ALL* the hunting world is 'cruelty' with them, whether it is or not. They have made it their mission to abolish all hunting.....you're just helping them along with their agenda.
With friends like you, who needs enemies?


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

It's too bad the advocates for animal rights are so over the top..........there is a need for them. Even thought they are touched there is a need for them.


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2006)

Like many keep saying, its not the action here, its the fruit of the action. So you agree with them now, well what about next time, its not like they win this then say, ok we are all done going after these guys. They move to the next thing, probably will be cruel to have your dogs ear tatooed. We are in the minority here as many have said, they want to end what we do in the long run, and there is not nearly as many who support what we do as they have on their side. However, I expect some of this out of the typical American way of thinking. Its cruel to clip a tail of a 3-4 day old pup, but who cares when its subzero outside and there are thousands of people living on the street without food or shelter, thats not cruel. I am not a "everyone should get help" person, however I think we often get our prioritities mixed up. Look at some of the other countries, we are damn lucky to be able to have what we have, and now people want to get picky about this stuff. I think what these people stand for erks me more than anything, wanting all animals to be free spirits and non domesticated. Go to another country, like say when I went to the domincan, most animlals encountered looked like a walking rack of bones, but hey, they had their tails, so they must be happy!


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

I don't think anybody necessarily said they agree that it's torture when done properly, just not necessary. I don't have a problem with it, when done correctly.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I think what these people stand for erks me more than anything, wanting all animals to be free spirits and non domesticated. Go to another country, like say when I went to the domincan, most animlals encountered looked like a walking rack of bones, but hey, they had their tails, so they must be happy!


If free dogs are what they want to see then they should go to parts of the world where free ranging dogs their live "wonderful" lives in garbage dumps and die some pretty horrible deaths because no one is caring for them. They also wreak havoc on livestock (if you think coyotes are bad...) and are a hazard to people and kids.

My question is, in times like this, how does this stuff even get to the top of politicians' desks for consideration? I don't have a problem with going after people for animal cruelty, there are some very valid reasons for doing so. But tail docking, dew claw removal, and so on are no different than having your wisdom teeth preemptively removed IMO. Doesn't mean it needs to be done, but if someone wants to, who am I to say otherwise as long as it's done right?

My final .02.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

Mr. 16 gauge said:


> Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, cupcake.....I wanna see you argue the 'merits' of e collars with your buddies in Peta and the HSUS......*ALL* the hunting world is 'cruelty' with them, whether it is or not. They have made it their mission to abolish all hunting.....you're just helping them along with their agenda.
> With friends like you, who needs enemies?


i was going to reply to that. but it doesnt merit one. you appear to be completely out of arguements anyway.


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

Sounds to me like we have some closet hsus/peta supporters.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i've spent a lifetime raising livestock an activity that isnt approved by the animal rights groups. i even paid for a signifcant portion of my college education by raising animals. i've castrated lambs and calves, dehorned calves and docked the tails on lambs. i've shot my good dogs and horses when they were old and it was time to do so and buried them in the pasture behind my house. i've given ewes ceaserain sections to save the lamb when the mother was dying and and a number of other things.

i've also seen the cruelty that humans inflict on each other, their children and on animals. a friend worked a case where a young kid buried kittens up to their neck and mowed their heads off with a lawn mower. and i've seen far worse things than that.

you become hardened in one sense to such things for self preservation. but in another way you become extremely sensitised to cruelty. you've seen a lifetime of it, and you dont care to see any more if it isnt necessary. sometimes it is, certain surgeries and procedures such as chemotherapy can be pretty unpleasant. but they are necessary.

this isnt torture as it isnt long lasting. but it's an unnecessary thing. most dogs live long and healthy lives without it, doing the same things that the crop eared and bobtailed dogs do.

these groups will always be on the attack, most often with causes that are wrong. but they, like hunters, farmers and ranchers are only a minority. but there are a majority who are just in the center. and if you defend the indefensible, you lose their support. and when you have lost enough of it, you wont only lose the battles, you will lose the war.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

Not in the closet. They do alot more good then they do bad, granted it's only because they have been kept in check so far and we need to work to keep them in check.

I support our local branch of the Humane Society with donations and with my time. I support many of their views regarding abuse and neglect, and even though they are over the top, I have less distain for them then I do those that abuse their pets, or those that abuse cattle, pigs and poultry.

Do a youtube search for "Earthlings", or just animal abuse. What people will do to animals is horrific and I just can't kick somebody that tries to stop it too bad.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Like many keep saying, its not the action here, its the fruit of the action. So you agree with them now, well what about next time, its not like they win this then say, ok we are all done going after these guys. They move to the next thing, probably will be cruel to have your dogs ear tatooed. We are in the minority here as many have said, they want to end what we do in the long run, and there is not nearly as many who support what we do as they have on their side. However, I expect some of this out of the typical American way of thinking. Its cruel to clip a tail of a 3-4 day old pup, but who cares when its subzero outside and there are thousands of people living on the street without food or shelter, thats not cruel. I am not a "everyone should get help" person, however I think we often get our prioritities mixed up. Look at some of the other countries, we are damn lucky to be able to have what we have, and now people want to get picky about this stuff. I think what these people stand for erks me more than anything, wanting all animals to be free spirits and non domesticated. Go to another country, like say when I went to the domincan, most animlals encountered looked like a walking rack of bones, but hey, they had their tails, so they must be happy!


Excellent post.

The last sentence cracked me up!

According to the law dogs are considered property. My (docked) dogs are treated as members of the family-it is a matter of how I chose to treat my property. Sad as it is they do enjoy a better standard of life than most of the street people we see everyday.

I guess some here (and in the animal rights crowd) would rather dictate whether I can have my dog docked and dew claws removed. I submit that nobody has any more right to tell my what options my dogs should come with than they would with my next vehicle purchase.

Make no mistake about it this legislation is geared towards breeders and hunters. I don't hear about any recent legislation looking to make declawing Toonces the kitty ilegal.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

While I will agree PETA says you shouldn't be able to, I don't think anybody here said you shouldn't have your dogs tail docked, though I may have missed it.

It has been said it is unnecessary, and it shouldn't be done improperly and while we may have varying beliefs regarding necessity, I would hope everybody agrees it should be done properly.


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## milmo1 (Nov 9, 2005)

2PawsRiver said:


> I support our local branch of the Humane Society with donations and with my time.


Don't confuse HSUS with you local Michigan Humane Society. They are not the same. HSUS uses the Humane Society name as credibilty for their wild agenda.

My stance is simple: Do it humanely and there is no need to justify. 
That should be our view as a whole group.

These comments remind me of the comments I heard when I tried spreading the word on Dove Hunting. There were a lot of fellow hunters (their preference will remain unmentioned) who said it was unneccesary and since they didn't have interest they were voting against or not at all.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Gina Fox said:


> "Picking your battles" is a form of appeasement...You cannot rationalize with those people. So you need to stand firm on your principals and do battle no matter how insignificant you might think the issue is and whether or not you believe it will affect the bigger picture or not later down the line, because it will.



*No Compromise, Ever*


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## GNS Shorthairs (Aug 6, 2008)

I think we all need to keep in mind that these bills are not about putting rubber bands on dogs tails when there 5-years of age, or taking a pair of pliers to remove dew claws. These bills are not aimed at the unlawful, or should I say, unethical practices of "animal torture". These bills will make it a felony for an individual to have their pet's, or their litter's, dew claws removed, ears clipped, or tails docked by a professionally licensed vet that can perform these procedures with their eyes closed. Period. Unless, the individual can prove medically, after the fact, that the removal/manipulation of these parts will benefit the animal medically. The Illinois bill even states that it is considered "torture" to have these procedure done. Torture? Torture? Torture is allowing your dog to go arond the house, whipping their tail against furniture, against walls, across your childrens face and not being able to do anything about it. Or possibly being able to do something about it after you jump through 50 legality hoops after this bill passes.

To all you supporters of these bills. Don't ask us to justify why we have our dogs tails docked and dew claws removed. You justify why we shouldn't. "It hurts the puppy!" "The dogs have less balance!" "It's cruel!" "If God wanted them to have short tails, they would have been born with short tails!" I've heard it all and none of it stands up to rational thinking. Somebody prove to me any of these claims. Well the "God" one would be tough to argue but I'd give it a shot. 

This bill doesn't delineate between working dogs, show dogs, companion dogs or hunting dogs. This bill is for ALL dogs and medical procedures that are done by PROFESSIONALS. If it were targeting anything else, then it should have been written in such a manner. So don't feed us this crap about my dog is this, my dog is that ... "Well my dogs are hunting dogs and family companions. I should be allowed to choose if they should have their dew claws removed and tails docked, for their own well being while in the field, and my children's well being while their in the home." 

I question the intelligence of those who say it's just cosmetic and the "in thing to do". Take your kids over to my sister's house, who owns a very nice lab, and see if they can come out of there without a black eye or a welt across their arm or face. In fact, I think all dogs should have their tails docked!!!!!!!!! Don't worry my friends, I would never try to pass such an idiotic bill because I try not to generalize all situations and all dogs, based on my dog and my situation.

Focus on the bill! Tell me (and the others on this board) why it should be passed! If you can't convince us then maybe you need to look at your own way of thinking. For the others who don't believe in this bill. Please don't sit back and do nothing. Contact the state reps in these other states and voice your opinion. This bill is way to RADICAL (All dogs and all procedures even by professionals), but what do we expect from the HSUS.

P.s.- One more thing. You volunteer for HSUS, you donate, you shovel their drive, you buy their magazines, you log onto their websites (let's delete this one because you need to know what the enemy is doing) ... then YOU SUPPORT THEIR CAUSE. PERIOD! You want to make yourself feel good, try it with another organization because I'm not buying the "I love dogs and I want to help them" crap. If you are a hunter, fisherman, or even somebody who uses antibiotics on occassion, you should never support the HSUS ... and you are. Therefore, you are neither a hunter nor a fisherman, and please throw your antibiotics away, they were developed through animal testing.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

I have to wonder is neutering and spaying on this cruel list of procedures?

While there are Vets and Breeders out there that do these procedures in a matter that is not cruel to the dogs or endanger their health there those that do a poor job at these procedures either by waiting until the dog is older or botching the job and getting the dog infected or worse. It is going to be photos of the botched jobs that are shown to legislators. 

So my point is this we can all stand our ground and try to hold back the incoming wave or we can help form laws that protect our ability to have a dogs tail docked while at the same time protecting the dogs from botched procedures. 

Maybe these procedures should be done by someone who is licensed. Maybe there should be an age by which they should be done. Many legislators would probably be opened to a middle of the road compromise.

If we don't police ourselves then someone else will.


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## GNS Shorthairs (Aug 6, 2008)

... and this is exactly my point. This bill is not about botched tail jobs or crooked ears. It's about banning the professionals from doing their job that they have been trained to do and not allowing responsible dog owners to take humane and proper care of their animals in the best way that they see fit. 

Now professionals not doing their job is another issue. I guess that is why we have lawyers.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

I'm with Brandy said:


> I have to wonder is neutering and spaying on this cruel list of procedures?
> 
> While there are Vets and Breeders out there that do these procedures in a matter that is not cruel to the dogs or endanger their health there those that do a poor job at these procedures either by waiting until the dog is older or botching the job and getting the dog infected or worse. It is going to be photos of the botched jobs that are shown to legislators.
> 
> ...


 You have got to be kidding me. Don't we have enough BS laws in this country already. Now you want a law that tells somone when ,who ,what age, we can dock tails and dew claws. Man don't you people have anything better to do. This is a pathetic debate. get a life.Quit worrying about what someone else is doing with their dogs and get out and do something with yours.


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## Bonz 54 (Apr 17, 2005)

Well said. I can't believe this discussion has gone this long... FRANK


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

I'm with Brandy said:


> I have to wonder is neutering and spaying on this cruel list of procedures?
> 
> While there are Vets and Breeders out there that do these procedures in a matter that is not cruel to the dogs or endanger their health there those that do a poor job at these procedures either by waiting until the dog is older or botching the job and getting the dog infected or worse. It is going to be photos of the botched jobs that are shown to legislators.
> 
> ...


 
I own and breed Cocker Spaniels and Vizsla....both docked breeds as well as removal of dew claws. I do my own. In fact, my Veterinarian has SENT people to me to do their puppies. I do them at 3 or 4 days, they never bleed. It is quick and painless. When I do them and put them down they are asleep before I move on to the next pup. 
A lot of Vet do not have a clue on the proper length to dock tails and some put a stitch in..which always gets infected, requiring longer healing period and another trip to the Vet...my pups tails and dews never get infected and are healed within 24 hours.

If you have ever seen a dog with a dew claw that has grown around in a circle and imbedded into the leg or had to PAY to have a broken one removed, you would not be against dew claw removal. Same with tail docking.
As an aside for you English Pointer & Setter hunters...your dogs should or more than likely have had their dews removed...so your breeds are affected...OH and Peta is against e-collars...just a heads up!


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Gina Fox said:


> I own and breed Cocker Spaniels and Vizsla....both docked breeds as well as removal of dew claws. I do my own. In fact, my Veterinarian has SENT people to me to do their puppies. I do them at 3 or 4 days, they never bleed. It is quick and painless. When I do them and put them down they are asleep before I move on to the next pup.
> A lot of Vet do not have a clue on the proper length to dock tails and some put a stitch in..which always gets infected, requiring longer healing period and another trip to the Vet...my pups tails and dews never get infected and are healed within 24 hours.
> 
> If you have ever seen a dog with a dew claw that has grown around in a circle and imbedded into the leg or had to PAY to have a broken one removed, you would not be against dew claw removal. Same with tail docking.
> As an aside for you English Pointer & Setter hunters...your dogs should or more than likely have had their dews removed...so your breeds are affected...OH and Peta is against e-collars...just a heads up!


 You should be jailed for cruelty to puppies. I do mine at 2 days old so therefore I want to implament a law that says they all must be done at 2 days old or it is a felony.
Hey why don't we debate something about as senseless as this thread,lets debate if its gonna rain or not this weekend.The bleeding hearts nowadays make me sick. Would somebody please just shoot me so I don't have to read anymore of this nonsense.:lol::lol::lol:


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

crosswind said:


> Would somebody please just shoot me so I don't have to read anymore of this nonsense.:lol::lol::lol:


 
Scott-step away from the computer!!! It's only a website!!!!!!:lol:


Be thankful you have other options...I am laid up with a knee injury so unfortunately the couch, tv, and the internet are my sole entertainment right now:yikes:


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Bonz, Gina, and Crosswind --

I have to say I'm torn on this one. While I agree that we should be permitted to continue to do and have these procedures done, I don't wholeheartedly disagree with some kind of regulation IF that's enough to get the anti's to sit down and shut up.

The problem with making it a black and white, no compromise issue is that if they win, that's it, game over. Would requiring a minimal education/certification for performing the procedure be the end of the world?

The problem with "No Compromise Ever" is that every issue becomes a win/lose issue. If that's the approach we take, we will incur loses -- guaranteed.

KW


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

NEMichsportsman said:


> Scott-step away from the computer!!! It's only a website!!!!!!:lol:
> 
> 
> Be thankful you have other options...I am laid up with a knee injury so unfortunately the couch, tv, and the internet are my sole entertainment right now:yikes:


 Sorry, I lost my head. For some reason I thought this forum was actually supposed to be informative.Not a crying towell for the tree hugger supporters.:lol: I gotta go back to work.Before I have a foot injury from kicking my computer off the table..... I need some more coffee.


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## Birddog8487 (Jul 10, 2006)

k9wernet said:


> Bonz, Gina, and Crosswind --
> 
> I don't wholeheartedly disagree with some kind of regulation IF that's enough to get the anti's to sit down and shut up.
> 
> KW


Short of setting them free it will never be enough to shut them up.


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## Birddog8487 (Jul 10, 2006)

crosswind said:


> Sorry, I lost my head. For some reason I thought this forum was actually supposed to be informative.Not a crying towell for the tree hugger supporters.:lol: I gotta go back to work.Before I have a foot injury from kicking my computer off the table..... I need some more coffee.


I agree with everything you have said except the part about more cofee. You seem way over-caffeinated to me :lol:.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Jun 29, 2007)

Mickey Finn said:


> Is it cruel? On some breeds, it's cruel not too. DD DK and their american cousins to name a few. Cropping ears has alot of practical applications as well. For dogs like the Doberman Pinscher, and the Giant schnauser. It eliminates two hand holds that can be used to control the dogs head when he's trying to do his job.
> 
> The animal right whacko's are just that. It's very hard to argue with emotional foolishness. They have made great strides in Europe. Here, we'll be hardpressed to stop them if we can't all get on the same page.


Very True


My feelings are that properly done by a qualified person, it is in the best interest of the breed to dock tails or crop ears for breeds that have historically had this done. 

Regards
Jeffrey Towler


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

What if C-A-T really spelled DOG???


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Like k9wernet said if you tell law makers it is a black or white, yes or no deal then you will probably lose. Resisting any compromise will give all the power to the people that would take away your ability to have your dogs tail docked.

If laws are written that allow the procedure and protect the dog then you will take the power away from people who want to stop tail docking.

Use the link below to check out what owners in the U.K. now have to deal with when it comes to tail docking. 
http://www.cdb.org/awa/index.htm

In many countries Kennel clubs are writing new breed standards to exclude the docking of tails.












Legal status of dog tail docking by country
This list is incomplete;

* Argentina: Unrestricted
* Australia: Banned in all states and territories as of June 2004. Restricted to veterinarians, for welfare, not cosmetic.[8]
* Austria: Banned as of 1 January 2005 according to the "Bundestierschutzgesetz" §7.1
* Belgium: Banned as of 1 January 2006
* Brazil: Banned for cosmetic purposes.
* Canada: Unrestricted. From 28 March 2009 cosmetic surgery including tail docking will be banned by the New Brunswick Veterinary Medical Association.

This includes:

Tail docking in dogs, horses, and cows.

* Chile: Unrestricted
* Croatia: Banned
* Cyprus: Banned in 1991[9]
* Czech Republic: Banned
* Denmark: Banned as of 1 June 1996, with exceptions for five gun dog breeds
* England: Restricted as of 2006 - can only be done by vet on a number of working dog breeds. [10]
* Estonia: Banned as of 2001
* Finland: Banned in 1992. Exception on tail docking, although banned on dog shows.[1]
* France: Banned as of 4 August 2003
* Germany: Banned on 1 May 1992, with exceptions for working gun dogs.[1]
* Greece: Banned in 1991[9]
* Hungary: Banned
* Iceland: Banned as of 2001
* India: Unrestricted
* Indonesia: Unrestricted
* Ireland: Banned as of January 2008. For Northern Ireland, see its listing below.
* Israel: Banned for cosmetic purposes in 2000.[1]
* Italy: Banned in Rome and Turin
* Latvia: Banned
* Lithuania: Banned
* Luxembourg: Banned in 1991[9]
* Malaysia: Unrestricted
* Mauritius: Unrestricted
* Mexico: Unrestricted
* Nepal: Unrestricted
* Netherlands: Banned as of 1 September 2001
* New Zealand: Unrestricted
* Northern Ireland: Unrestricted tail docking, Ear Cropping Illegal.
* Norway: Docking banned since 1987
* Philippines: Unrestricted
* Portugal: Unrestricted
* Republic of Ireland: Unrestricted for dogs.
* Russia: Unrestricted
* Scotland: Banned as of 2006 for all breeds.
* Singapore: Unrestricted
* Slovakia: Banned as of 1 January 2003
* South Africa: Banned as of June 2007
* Sweden: Banned as of 1989. Apparent increase in tail injuries reported among working dogs after ban.[1]
* Switzerland: Banned as of 1 July 1981 for the ears and 1988 for the tail[1]
* Taiwan: Unrestricted.
* United States: Unrestricted (some states, including New York,[11] and Vermont have considered bills to make the practice illegal)
* Virgin Islands: Banned as of 2005
* Wales: Same legislation as England.


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## Birddog8487 (Jul 10, 2006)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Like k9wernet said if you tell law makers it is a black or white, yes or no deal then you will probably lose. Resisting any compromise will give all the power to the people that would take away your ability to have your dogs tail docked.
> 
> If laws are written that allow the procedure and protect the dog then you will take the power away from people who want to stop tail docking.
> 
> ...


A couple things that go against the idea of appeasing the unappeasable.
It obviously doesnt stop when they get to dogs as I see Canada has seen fit to include livestock. That should be a warning to some. I also noticed they had an "apparent increase" in tail injuries after the working dog ban in Sweden. How can that be? Didn't Dogwhistle assure us there was no reason for docking in working dogs? The gamekeepers that left the tail long on setters, pointers, and hounds are the same ones that cut the tails on the spaniel breeds. Did anyone stop to think that there might have been a practical reason for that?

One last little bit of information in my incoherent, rambling post then I'll shut up. Switzerland has instituted a catch and release fishing ban (live bait and barbed hooks also banned) ,effective this year, as part of a broader animal welfare act. But you guys are right, lets just be reasonable and it will all just go away.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Lets call a spade a spade. It is not painless. All and I mean all of the pups cry when the cut is made! I've done thousands and thats fact. In addition I suture all the tails and dewclaws and have had excellent healing without scars. I have seen many done by others that were open or scarred that were done without sutures. So I disagree with the no stitches argument. I use local blocks in all my tails and dewclaws it takes longer but then the proceedure is truely painless. The old argument that the nerves aren't developed at 3 days is just plain incorrect. It seems to me that if you argue against any point and have information in you argument that is incorrect it opens the door for the other side to prove your entire argument as flawed. So lets be honest. BTW I don't oppose this proceedure. I did my first tails and dewclaws in 1974. macvet51


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## DaYoop (Oct 26, 2000)

I've been waiting for this argument to come up. The American Veterinary Medical Association now opposes tail docking/ear cropping and is urging AKC to change breed standards. Despite what people want or feel, I do suspect all cosmetic surgery in animals will be banned in the next 5-10 years.

Is it cruel or torture - depends on your definition. 

For me personally, I generally oppose any procedure that the sole beneficiary is the owner. If the pet's best interest is not in mind I won't do it. I oppose ear cropping and therefore will not do it. Clients typically understand when I explain my stance and the _medical reasoning behind it. 

I don't mind docking tails, but I don't feel it's necessary. I've had to perform a number of tail amputations in adult dogs (happy labs) that keep beating the tip open so I see the medical indication. Same goes for dewclaws. I'd rather remove it at 3 days of age and never have to worry about it again._


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

DaYoop said:


> I've been waiting for this argument to come up. The American Veterinary Medical Association now opposes tail docking/ear cropping and is urging AKC to change breed standards. Despite what people want or feel, I do suspect all cosmetic surgery in animals will be banned in the next 5-10 years.
> 
> Is it cruel or torture - depends on your definition.
> 
> ...


_

Just what we need : The government stepping in to tell pet owners what they can and can't do with their dogs.

As far as your personal stance on cropping ears goes, I would have to guess if you tell a customer that you won't do it based on nothing but your preference, that you never see them again as a return customer.
I know I wouldn't come back._


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

DaYoop said:


> I've been waiting for this argument to come up. The American Veterinary Medical Association now opposes tail docking/ear cropping and is urging AKC to change breed standards. Despite what people want or feel, I do suspect all cosmetic surgery in animals will be banned in the next 5-10 years.
> 
> Is it cruel or torture - depends on your definition.
> 
> ...


_


I asked my friend who is a Vet ...wth is up with the AVMA and their position on docking and cropping...he said

"What do you expect?? Most are liberal vegans that are graduating from Veterinary Schools...vast majority are women..blah blah blah" and he gave me some other information that I am reluctant to post as it will probably be 'politically incorrect' Suffice to say that they do NOT speak for the majority of Vets out there...If you want to know PM me._


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

you dont support me and wont in the future. the only people i "support" are family, friends, and the select group of people i worked with.

i dont lop the tails off of my dogs, i dont worry much about dewclaws, and i would never cut off part of a dogs ear for reasons of appearance.

i just got into this discussion because i was trying to point out that there was no good reason for doing those things. lots and lots of dogs, the vast majority survive without them. and then the insults started from some, not you that i recall.fd you dont get any support that way.

i just dont consider myself part of a group because i own a dog and hunt. i dont buy the hang together or we will all hang seperatly.

personally, think the dog groups should take the machiavellian appproach and support the bill. build up some good will among the middle ground for the time an important issue comes up.


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Here is a interesting read for all you tail dockers!



http://www.animallaw.info/articles/dduscroppingdocking.htm


Griff


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> you dont support me and wont in the future. the only people i "support" are family, friends, and the select group of people i worked with.
> 
> i dont lop the tails off of my dogs, i dont worry much about dewclaws, and i would never cut off part of a dogs ear for reasons of appearance.
> 
> ...


Bottom line if it doesn't have anyting to do with Dogwhistle's setters,horses or cattle.He ain't gonna support it. Great attitude,man. The bird dog community needs lots more with that attitude.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

dogwhistle said:


> it was just an analogy and apparently it went way over your heads.
> 
> 
> i'm no supporter of PETA or HSUS, but i'm no supporter of most of you either.


#1) it was a terrrible analogy, and our heads are much lower than yours because our intellect is inferior to your years of knowledge and wisdom. 
#2) I hope they come for you first.

Matt


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

Good article thanks for posting.










griffondog said:


> Here is a interesting read for all you tail dockers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

crosswind said:


> Bottom line if it doesn't have anyting to do with Dogwhistle's setters,horses or cattle.He ain't gonna support it. Great attitude,man. The bird dog community needs lots more with that attitude.


I think DW is having a good laugh at all of us. I didn't always disagree with his viewpoints. As of late I think he chooses the most ludicrous viewpoint and defends it at all costs. I think the trolling has been good lately.





hehibrits said:


> #1) it was a terrrible analogy, and our heads are much lower than yours because our intellect is inferior to your years of knowledge and wisdom.
> #2) I hope they come for you first.
> 
> Matt


If my preceding theory is incorrect then I have to agree with you!!!:lol:


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

*Quote from the MSU document linked above.*

*[p]edigree dogs are man-made. People have decided which dog will mate which. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as you realise your responsibility and don't just breed for the characteristics you want . . . [w]e have to have responsibility and vision in breeding animals - a wee bit of humility wouldn't go amiss.**30*

Don't breed for the characteristics you want? Then what pray tell should they breed for? The foot note #30 doesn't work.


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## Birddog8487 (Jul 10, 2006)

crosswind said:


> Bottom line if it doesn't have anyting to do with Dogwhistle's setters,horses or cattle.He ain't gonna support it. Great attitude,man. The bird dog community needs lots more with that attitude.


Sadly, the entire outdoor sporting community is full of people with the same attitude as Dogwhistle.



hehibrits said:


> #1) it was a terrrible analogy, and our heads are much lower than yours because our intellect is inferior to your years of knowledge and wisdom.
> #2) I hope they come for you first.
> 
> Matt


My thoughts exactly.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

griffondog said:


> Here is a interesting read for all you tail dockers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I will have to read the article. However Lawyers are what is WRONG with this country in a lot of cases IMHO, no offense intented for the legal eagles on this forum.

It has been posted again and again so here it is one more time. 

It really doesnt matter WHAT your personal view is on the procedure. You should be about _*PROTECTING the rights*_ to continue the practice. 

Imagine that a bunch of folks get together and say that Bow Hunting and Trapping are CRUEL an need to be discontinued. Now you may not BE a bow hunter or trapper, but _*your concern should be the ESCALATION of legislation that MAY eventually affect you down the road in YOUR interests*_.

If you don't believe in docking or cropping don't get one of those breeds and don't ever do it to a puppy. That should be your only negative action on the subject.


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## Rooster_Smasher (Oct 18, 2003)

I put my Male Setter with my Female Setter and we will be delivering pups in March. This will be PAINFULL for her, is this crewl or Animal Torture. 

My Female Setters tail is red with blood an hour into a hunt. Looks like I dipped it into a red paint can. She licks and cleans it while in her kennel in the evening after a hunt. Shoulda cut the darn thing off when she was a wee lil one,,, LMAO...

Remember that litter of pups we had by accident, the PointSetta's. I hunt a lot with one of the fellas that I gave a pup to. That darn dog has a ton of small scars on its tail. Those scars when they are opened up are painfull to the touch. I should have docked the tails to avoid the dog the pain of being so darn birdy all the time while she is in the woods. Her tail goes a hundred miles an hour just by looking at the Grouse woods. 

Those who say tail docking is Torture have not a clue as to what they are talking about.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

If you noticed most of the dogs that are docked are 'skeleton' breeds, the ones with not alot of padding by way of coat or padding of 'meat on their bones' which adds a buffer to the end of that tail...also if a dog is working with a high tail carriage, like the pointer or the setter, there may be less damage.

You don't see Chessies, Labs, Goldens or a lot of other varieties suffering from problems like you do the 'thinner' dogs.

I have seen some docked breeds with long tails...Cockers while coated are abnormally long, being smaller in stature they are prone to damage. Viz are very thin skinned dogs and mine get pretty beat up hunting, I cannot imagine what the ends of their tails would look like. They are not docked very short in fact I dock mine to the meatiest part of the tail.

I don't think tail docking is as painful as spaying or neutering...which is a barbaric form of birth control. Additionally there is substantial evidence of increases long bone cancers and hemangiosarcoma and OTHER health problems related to those procedures.

I have altered my contract to delay or eliminate those procedures on any of my pups going to pet homes, instead opting for some education about responsible pet ownership.

It IS about the health and well being of dogs.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Gina Fox said:


> On page 1 you wrote " I do my own tails at 3 days old it takes me less than 1 min per puppy and they don't even feel it." Now you write
> I don't think tail docking is as painful as spaying or neutering.
> These two statements seem to contradict each other. macvet51


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

Mike McDonald said:


> Gina Fox said:
> 
> 
> > On page 1 you wrote " I do my own tails at 3 days old it takes me less than 1 min per puppy and they don't even feel it." Now you write
> ...


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Gina Fox said:


> Mike McDonald said:
> 
> 
> > Ok Mike let me clarify it then...tail docking by my experience is NOT painful it is done so quick the pups do not react. The do react to my holding them though. As soon as I put them down they immediately crawl back on top of their littermates and go back to sleep.
> ...


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

Mike McDonald said:


> Gina Fox said:
> 
> 
> > So it is Not painful not not as painful. Is that right?
> ...


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

Mike,

What is your "standard" pain management protocol for spays?

rimadyl sq preop, perioperative sq buprinexx, then just PO rimadyl?? Or are you also using tramadol or something postop?

Do you use incisional blocks? 

It's good to see someone who's up to date on pain management. 

Do you require pain mangement, or is it something a client can opt out of?


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

Gina Fox said:


> IMHO NOT painful. Additionally I would expect if the pups were in pain from the procedure, they would cry afterward or be restless, and they do not. Ever.


In human neonatal medicine, it's widely understood that the simple act of suckling, or being held, can be used as a supportive method of pain management. There are two things in play with the procedure, the anxiety of being away from the littermates and the actual pain causing event of having the tail docked. The anxiety outweighs the pain, but physiologically, the pain happens regardless. The use of local blocks removes (or at least reduces) the physiologic pain and all the puppy would feel is the anxiety.

With your cat, it's impossible to judge without knowledge of the entire situation, starting at when you dropped it off at the vet. The anesthetic protocol has a huge effect on post operative anxiety and pain management and is altered by a skilled vet to what is most effective for the situation. For the most part, most vets are archaic in their knowledge of current anesthetic protocols and are very very afraid of change from what they have been taught. It's one of the parts of veterinary medicine that has come a LOOOOONG way in the last 20 years.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

When I was a kid my dad dropped a screw driver near the deck of a running lawnmower...his pinky ring finger and middle finger on his left hand were crushed and he lost the tip of his ring finger. In discussions afterward. He said he never felt it happen. He thought the blade just 'nicked' his hand, that is, until he looked at it.

The pain came later.

I think that the docking itself is done so quick, that the pup does not feel it. Being that there is no odd behavior afterward, and I know what a dog in pain looks like, I feel its safe to assume that there are no residual affects from the procedure.

I am assuming based on your posts that you are a Veterinarian, if so, have you done tails? If you have, have you experienced the same thing? 

In comparing notes with my friend who is a Vet, he gave me this long drawn out procedure that he used to go through...cutting a V then cutting the cartilige then stiching it up...topical ointments to prevent infection...

Seems to me that my procedure was quick and there were no after affects or problems with infections and no scarring...I noticed a lot of tails with stitches put in them there was a 'bald' spot on the end of the tail. My method did not result in infection or a bald spot.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Snowman11, We use Rimadyl pre op, low dose morphine perioperatively and oral Rimadyl post op. In addition we use Torbugesic in our preop coctail. As you know its not on board long. Occasionally we will use a little morph post op if the recovery is not smooth. We use Rimadyl pre op and morph periop regardless and we offer Rimadly post op for a fee. We do give a 24hr dose of Rimadyl pre op. Our clinic is already the most expensive in our area and if we added Rimadyl post op to our protocal and charged for it I'm not sure how many we would do. As I type that it seems like a cop-out. Mike McDonald DVM


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

If you are already requiring the rimadyl injection and using morphine, your are well above 75% of the clinics I know for required pain management. 

I wish we did the postop morphine, instead we use the "it doesn't hurt as much as your head" protocol. THat is when the dog is pounding it's head against the cage due to dysphoria, and it's head deveops a nice goose egg, thus distracting it from the surgical pain. (the job market sucks right now, and I don't have enough experience to just walk)


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Snowman11, We don't require that the client pay for the injectable Rimadyl or morphine. Its part of our protocal they don't have a choice if they want us to do it. Their options are take home pain meds, pre anestheia blood work and I V fluids. Honestly most clients choose all three. Keep the faith on the Job market. Things are tight here but they will get better and there is always turnover in the Veterinary business. Lets do the rest of this with PM's Mike McDonald DVM


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

Not knowing much about ear cropping, do you think this is done to help the dogs hear better? I would think the ears being up and open would funnel the sound better. They seem to be shaped like cats, bats and other animals that seem to have excellent hearing?


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## DaYoop (Oct 26, 2000)

A little off topic, but 

It scares me to think people honestly think that cutting a dog's tail off at any age is "NOT painful".... 

Any surgical procedure induces pain, regardless of the size of the incision or, more importantly, regardless of what age it is performed. Its all in how the pain is dealt with. Pre, Intra, and Post-op pain managment is the key. 

And to follow up on a prior comment to my comment on ethics - no I don't consider all people who perform ear crops unethical - BUT there is certainly an ethical and unethical way to peform it. That is very important!


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i'm not a vet, just a grown up farmboy. but i've seen lots of animals of various types that were either injured or had some procedure done on them, castrating, dehorning, tail docking, and they dont show much if any pain. that doesnt mean they arent feeling, just that they dont show it.

i had a dog drive a stick into her chest break it off and pull off it. she left five inches of it well inside the chest cavity. she was acting oddlly and in distress but was walking and would have tried if i asked to.

animals dont seem to vocalize pain very much. a friend had a colt almost completely cut off the lower leg on a fence. he just stood there and walked on his fetlock when we tried to get close to shoot him.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

YouTube has a video of a 2 day old Draht getting its tail docked. Doesn't sound painless to me in the video.

If you're going to have it done, at least give the dogs something to take away any pain during the procedure.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

WestCoastHunter said:


> YouTube has a video of a 2 day old Draht getting its tail docked. Doesn't sound painless to me in the video.
> 
> If you're going to have it done, at least give the dogs something to take away any pain during the procedure.


I went and looked at that...those women are idiots. They used a clamp and then cut it...my pups NEVER scream like that. 

The method I use is entirely different, so quick they don't even react. 

Several ways to skin a cat...that is one I would never use.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

Sooooooooooooo, would skinning a cat be torture.:lol:


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

2PawsRiver said:


> Sooooooooooooo, would skinning a cat be torture.:lol:


:lol: depends...on if you like cats or not...jk I like cats 

I understand this whole debate...I dock tails because I feel its necessary, but would never crop ears or declaw my cat...

HOWEVER, I do not want any laws to prevent those who DO want to have those procedures done, from being able to get it done.

I never understood the whole circumcision thing guys...when my son was born I left the decision up to my husband...if it were totally up to me I think I would have opted out...I thought it was cruel and unusual...but then what do I know?????


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Gina Fox said:


> I went and looked at that...those women are idiots. They used a clamp and then cut it...my pups NEVER scream like that.
> 
> The method I use is entirely different, so quick they don't even react.
> 
> Several ways to skin a cat...that is one I would never use.


I am sure you do a great job at docking tails. But what video do you think law makers are going to see, you doing it or some clown that doesn't care? 

Maybe you should make a video showing the proper way of doing a tail docking.



As far as show dog owners taking up this fight I highly doubt they will since they will eventually have to follow suit with the all the other countries changing the breed standards. The countries that have banned tail docking have also band showing dogs that have docked tails.

The reference to snow flakes. People are not like snow flakes. There are three groups right extreme, left extreme and swing voters.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

I think dog show people are the ONLY ones that will fight this fight...along with a few sportsman who breed

We do NOT change our registries standards just because a bunch of European countries do. Like the American people will not lay down to follow suit with Socialist or Communist countries 'just because' others have JMHO

Next time I have a litter that gets docked I will make a video of the procedure.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Gina Fox said:


> I think dog show people are the ONLY ones that will fight this fight...along with a few sportsman who breed
> 
> We do NOT change our registries standards just because a bunch of European countries do. Like the American people will not lay down to follow suit with Socialist or Communist countries 'just because' others have JMHO
> 
> Next time I have a litter that gets docked I will make a video of the procedure.


Well that's extreme. I never said anyone was laying down for socialism or Communism. I agree this country will never have a socialist retirement program or bank bail outs. We would never allow the bail out of private corporations in this country.:lol:

The inability for dog owners to show a dog with a docked tail in a foreign country is what will drive the change.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> YouTube has a video of a 2 day old Draht getting its tail docked. Doesn't sound painless to me in the video.
> 
> If you're going to have it done, at least give the dogs something to take away any pain during the procedure.


 Dogwhistle,
i'm not a vet, just a grown up farmboy. but i've seen lots of animals of various types that were either injured or had some procedure done on them, castrating, dehorning, tail docking, and they dont show much if any pain. that doesnt mean they arent feeling, just that they dont show it.

i had a dog drive a stick into her chest break it off and pull off it. she left five inches of it well inside the chest cavity. she was acting oddlly and in distress but was walking and would have tried if i asked to.

animals dont seem to vocalize pain very much. a friend had a colt almost completely cut off the lower leg on a fence. he just stood there and walked on his fetlock when we tried to get close to shoot him.

You two have got to be joking. Maybe we should all just quit training dogs altogether because sooner or later when that dog is being broke there is going to be some pain or discomfort involved.Especially the force breaking stage. 
Dogwhistle I grew up on a farm also,to try and compare it with dehorning and casterating or shooting your lame horse is BS. Not even close.
As far as them needing pain medication during this tail docking procedure is also BS. They are back to nursing within a min of cutting the tail off,so don't preach this extream pain stuff. You may get some paople to buy that junk, but if anybody that has been in the business and actually gone through the process knows you are preaching a bunch of junk.
You people sound like a bunch of sissies that run for a bandaid when you get a sliver. 
Dogwhistle you and Westcoaster better stick with the long tail dogs because I don't think you could handle all the pain involved with owning a short tailed dog. Obviously neither of you have ever force broke dogs.Or let me quess all of yours are natural retrievers, right.Or you must send yours out to have it done by someone else,that way you don't have to bare the thought of pinching a toe or ear. Oh my what brutality.
Do you actually shoot birds over your dog?????? Toughen up or you may want to think about getting out of the bird dog stuff. OK really do you really shoot birds over your dog?????? How can you shoot those innocent birds??????? Perhaps some pain management drugs for the birds before you shoot them.:lol:
I give up.


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## Troutlord1 (Jun 6, 2007)

Heres an interesting somewhat related story
1st docking then this?? its not gonna end with
just the docking issue....just my thoughts
PETA uses KKK imagery at dog show protest


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Question: What does youtube, communism, and a 3 legged horse have to do with the original topic of his thread?

Answer: Nothing



I am with crosswind. "I give up"

Do what you want with your own dogs, side with HSUS (and their anti cronies) if you like, but this discussion can be continued elswhere.


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