# Buddy just got pinched...



## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

...for “hunting after hours” gun was loaded but never discharged, actually was skunked. Was only picking up spread. I didn’t know what to tell him. Anything in print on this one?
Thanks


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## Sofa King what? (Nov 1, 2016)

Open carry?


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## Ken Martin (Sep 30, 2003)

From the Wildlife Conservation Order:

(6) Subject to MCL 324.43510, (2) and (3), *except during the hunting hours specified in this section and as otherwise provided by subsection (2), a person shall not possess afield a firearm unless it is unloaded in the barrel, or

*


crossbow or a bow and arrow unless all arrows and bolts are placed in a quiver.


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## eye-sore (Jan 7, 2012)

Gun must be unloaded and arrows quivered outside of hours......that sucks man


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

Locke Nessy?? I dunno. I guess an argument could be contrived on the actual terminology of "hunting" from who's opinion. Picking up dekes at the end of the hunt is the end of the hunt. A loaded gun is in the marsh is hunting basically. An empty gun at that time could be fed ammo in a second after getting back to the blind with dekes if birds were landing. Opinionated technicalities would have to be deliberated on. I don't know any of the ?4589022.4563? sub section B-3 notifications of the library of congress stuff.

I have never seen anybody unload their gun exactly 30 minutes after sunset deer hunting. They all unload when they get back to the car or camp. What is that a billion or so violations in the last 5 decades that I can assume. If officer Reed "Adam 12" would have been there guberment officials would have been eating at Olive Garden 6 times a week instead of 2 a week.


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## Greatest hunter in world? (Apr 3, 2017)

Dang, what a stickler CO. gotta say though, the rule makes sense. There's defnitely been a couple times I could be cited for this. Like everyday during deer gun season, lol.


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## gentpike99 (Sep 13, 2012)

I am amazed that so many people want to load their guns before shooting hours. I tell them you are considered hunting if your gun is loaded and they always say I didn't know that.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

It's pretty simple actually.....load your gun when shooting hours begin .... unload your gun when shooting hours are over. Same with nocking an arrow. It has been this way for many years.


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

Whelp, time for him to dig deep for a donation$$ guess I’m guilty of hunting after hours for 30 to 60 seconds on occasion then.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

I could see if the gun was nearby within reach but if he had a brain fart and it was 30 yards away. Ehhhh.


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

All you muzzle loader guys like myself. Better start packing that powder bright and early and ram in that round out at the end of shooting hours . Lol


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

Divers Down said:


> All you muzzle loader guys like myself. Better start packing that powder bright and early and ram in that round out at the end of shooting hours . Lol


Pretty sure it is considered unloaded when you remove the primer. I don't know how it works if you have a flintlock.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

gentpike99 said:


> I am amazed that so many people want to load their guns before shooting hours. I tell them you are considered hunting if your gun is loaded and they always say I didn't know that.





wildthing said:


> It's pretty simple actually.....load your gun when shooting hours begin .... unload your gun when shooting hours are over. Same with nocking an arrow. It has been this way for many years.


So, if on opening day of rifle season, for example, started @ 7:15 am. If someone walked back in a mile and got situated in their blind @ 6:45 am so the area would settle. Suppose this hunter had a 742 or 1100 and 7:15 am came, you would strictly suggest putting a cartridge in the chamber and pushing the action release to where as the action would close properly with a big clang and then putting in the clip with a firm little palm thump, REALLY, come on Officer Reed. Maybe everybody should do the zombie/gangster movie 12ga pump loading at that precise moment all across the state. Haha, would Russian satellite sensors pick that up like an finally of an orchestra.


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## jiggin is livin (Jan 7, 2011)

Huh, well.....

Bow hunting (crossbow) I cock and load my bow as soon as I get to my tree, I'll be damned if I am waiting until day light for all that movement. Discharging it obviously as soon as I can, but I am not spooking deer to do it.

Gun is loaded as soon as I get it out of the truck and it isn't unloaded until I get back. Between critters and weirdos, I ain't going down.

Feel like that is pretty much common sense, but some CO's might have a chip on their shoulder.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

Divers Down said:


> ...for “hunting after hours” gun was loaded but never discharged, actually was skunked. Was only picking up spread. I didn’t know what to tell him. Anything in print on this one?
> Thanks


I can see being loaded before shooting hours, because you are planning to shoot shortly after. After hours, there is no need to shoot at all. Are you waiting for a coyote?


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## Ken Martin (Sep 30, 2003)

From the Hunting Digest:


*Note: *Muzzleloading firearms are considered unloaded when the cap is removed or priming powder is removed from the pan, or when the battery is removed on electronic systems. The ball and powder can remain in the barrel.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

Ken Martin said:


> From the Hunting Digest:
> 
> 
> *Note: *Muzzleloading firearms are considered unloaded when the cap is removed or priming powder is removed from the pan, or when the battery is removed on electronic systems. The ball and powder can remain in the barrel.


So, what would be the offense if cap, primer, or priming powder were removed from smokepole weapon only to be recapped, reprimed, or re flashpanned when arriving back at your vehicle to discharge it because it was snowing, raining, or bad weather and you wanted to fully clean the weapon prior to daily, weekly, or whatever time frame storage?


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## jd4223 (Feb 12, 2012)

I would have told Officer Reed that I was Coyote hunting after dark and using the duck decoys as bait.


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## jd4223 (Feb 12, 2012)

Reminded me of the time when Officer DoRight stopped me and my cousin on the ice carrying a 2 man limit of Blue Gills in a 5 gallon bucket. He made us dump the fish on the ice so he could count all 50 of them. He then proceeded to say we were in violation because he had no way of knowing how many fish each of us had caught. I told him not to worry and then started going through the pile of fish telling him which ones I caught until I had 25 Bluegills separated from my cousins 25 Blue Gills. He didn't think that was very funny. Never did give either of us a ticket.


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## walter sniper (Jan 21, 2010)

What area did this occur


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## jd4223 (Feb 12, 2012)

Irish Hills on a private pond,Tecumseh. Told him the pond was private but he still insisted on playing Barney Fife.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

some of COs are really bunch of D****. This CO is already in the marsh by sunset that I have never encountered and rather than trying to catch a late shooter, he does the easy thing, giving ticket or load gun. I and surely most shooters load their gun 5 or so minutes before shooting starts.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

nailed a bunch of guys here for it years ago. always unload at shooting time and never load before it.


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## Cobb1973 (Oct 21, 2011)

Fight it! You can shoot coyotes year round 24/7 . Private property! you may run into a coyote on the way to the truck, but the best defense is michigans open carry law, he can carry a gun loaded any where anytime on private land, or even just down the road,


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## Duck-Hunter (Mar 31, 2005)

Couple of years ago we hiked it in from the flooded corn at point Mouillee. It was a warm afternoon. CO was parked next to my truck. He was watching us pack mule our stuff. My buddy put his tailgate down set his gun on it while he got his decoys and other gear off his back. CO was freaking out when he asked what we shot. Said 6,he jumped out of his truck "you shot 6?!??" after he talked to me for a quick second he turned around and gave my buddy a ticket for a "uncased" firearm in a vehicle. Then proceeded to shake us down and see how many shells we had on us after asking how many we shot.

Stuff like that and your buddy getting pinched is why there is animosity between hunters and CO's. I get it they have a job to do and deal with dumb people on a daily basis but c'mon..


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

OnHoPr said:


> So, what would be the offense if cap, primer, or priming powder were removed from smokepole weapon only to be recapped, reprimed, or re flashpanned when arriving back at your vehicle to discharge it because it was snowing, raining, or bad weather and you wanted to fully clean the weapon prior to daily, weekly, or whatever time frame storage?


Damn, ALL your replies in this thread are out there way out there and make it appear that your totally clueless on firearm use.


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

Stuff like this really grinds my gears! This CO is a prick and lazy and should be fired. They are doing more harm for the outdoors than good. We all know there are plenty of people breaking laws daily for serious crimes that deserve to get caught and fined, but to get ticketed for this? Personally, I'd report the CO and file a formal complaint. I know it won't go anywhere, but this is crazy.


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

walter sniper said:


> What area did this occur


Pm sent


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

Duck-Hunter said:


> Couple of years ago we hiked it in from the flooded corn at point Mouillee. It was a warm afternoon. CO was parked next to my truck. He was watching us pack mule our stuff. My buddy put his tailgate down set his gun on it while he got his decoys and other gear off his back. CO was freaking out when he asked what we shot. Said 6,he jumped out of his truck "you shot 6?!??" after he talked to me for a quick second he turned around and gave my buddy a ticket for a "uncased" firearm in a vehicle. Then proceeded to shake us down and see how many shells we had on us after asking how many we shot.
> 
> Stuff like that and your buddy getting pinched is why there is animosity between hunters and CO's. I get it they have a job to do and deal with dumb people on a daily basis but c'mon..


Not sure how someone could sleep at night doing that kinda crap. Who’s the real violators?


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## Lurker (Jan 25, 2009)

fsamie1 said:


> some of COs are really bunch of D****. This CO is already in the marsh by sunset that I have never encountered and rather than trying to catch a late shooter, he does the easy thing, giving ticket or load gun. I and surely most shooters load their gun 5 or so minutes before shooting starts.


so you know what the law is, and knowingly break it.
why not start shooting early on the pm draw since it's legal shooting time everywhere else.
is missing an opportunity to shoot something right at shooting time that important?
no one I hunt with is loaded before or after shooting time.

DD... tell him to pay the fine.
he earned it.


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

Lurker said:


> so you know what the law is, and knowingly break it.
> why not start shooting early on the pm draw since it's legal shooting time everywhere else.
> is missing an opportunity to shoot something right at shooting time that important?
> no one I hunt with is loaded before or after shooting time.
> ...


Of course he’s gunna pay it, OEF/OIF vet with many tours, definitely not a law breaker.


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## Lurker (Jan 25, 2009)

you said you didn't know what to tell him.
just being helpful.


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

Lurker said:


> so you know what the law is, and knowingly break it.
> why not start shooting early on the pm draw since it's legal shooting time everywhere else.
> is missing an opportunity to shoot something right at shooting time that important?
> no one I hunt with is loaded before or after shooting time.
> ...


You ever break the speed limit? Drink under 21? Ever J walk? I agree he broke the interpreted law, was he hunting when he was packing decoys? Likely not. 
How many hunters rack their rifles before sunrise for deer? I bet most duck hunters put rounds in before first light. Who wants to be spooking birds and fumbling around at prime time. This goes to the whole did the gun shoot the duck or did I? Having a loaded gun and pulling the trigger should be viewed and ticketed differently in this instance.

As I said before, we have serious law breakers in our woods, if this is the best this CO can do for our state he should turn his badge in and choose a different profession.


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## Lurker (Jan 25, 2009)

yes, yes and yes and I owned every ticket I ever got. 
not implying the gentleman this post is about isn't.
and as I stated, no one I hunt with loads early. 
if we spook a duck loading up, good for the duck.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

sullyxlh said:


> Damn, ALL your replies in this thread are out there way out there and make it appear that your totally clueless on firearm use.


Could you elaborate please? I have been hunting almost 5 decades and just referring to the average smo whether suburbian or rural. Then you see actions like "a ticket for a "uncased" firearm in a vehicle" on the back of a PU when the CO just watched them come in from the field. I suppose if you were somewhat trained in Black ops, tactic cool, opinionated LE, or high level military. I guess you may have an opinionated point.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Duck-Hunter said:


> Couple of years ago we hiked it in from the flooded corn at point Mouillee. It was a warm afternoon. CO was parked next to my truck. He was watching us pack mule our stuff. My buddy put his tailgate down set his gun on it while he got his decoys and other gear off his back. CO was freaking out when he asked what we shot. Said 6,he jumped out of his truck "you shot 6?!??" after he talked to me for a quick second he turned around and gave my buddy a ticket for a "uncased" firearm in a vehicle. Then proceeded to shake us down and see how many shells we had on us after asking how many we shot.
> 
> Stuff like that and your buddy getting pinched is why there is animosity between hunters and CO's. I get it they have a job to do and deal with dumb people on a daily basis but c'mon..


I would expect nothing less then that from PM. That is absolutely ludicrous and Disgusting.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

Load when shooting hours start...unload when shooting hours end....no problem.


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## UplandnWaterfowl (Jan 3, 2010)

NbyNW said:


> I bet most duck hunters put rounds in before first light.


Nope, never with anybody I hunt with. Everybody knows it is unlawful, now with cell phones I set an alarm for start time and when it goes off we load up, also set it for 1 minute before end time to give us time to unload and case our guns. 

Why would you push the law for another duck. Same with deer hunting, always rack the mag after shooting time and unload and already climbing down at close.


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## Cobb1973 (Oct 21, 2011)

It's shooting hours not loading and unloading hours. Do I get a ticket for having lead and being loaded when I have my carry weapon on Me concealed or not? I would fight it ,the officer is wrong. Especially on private property. You can't tell me I can't have my gun loaded at 11 pm on my property . Even if I was picking up decoys from duck hunting. If you see me shooting at a duck in that time frame then and only then you could write me a ticket.


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## roo (Mar 30, 2011)

I got the same ticket in 2010 deer hunting. Had a neighbor call saying I was trespassing (I wasn't) CO and a county sheriff were at my truck when I got back in to it. He went through all my stuff until he was able to write me a ticket for this. You could stop at almost any vehicle November 15th and write this ticket 99 times out of 100. Is it BS yea. But technically against the law. I fought it and got it reduced.


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## cwielock (May 9, 2010)

jwinks said:


> You can say you were hunting yotes, but you would be lying, and the co would know that. If you had an AR and were operating a predator call, that would be different.


So you have never hunted yotes with a 12ga? I do a lot! I will walk out with my 12ga loaded because I hunt some areas that have a lot of em and I'm well with in my legal right to do so. I don't need a predator call to hunt them. That's like saying you can't hunt ducks without a duck call.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

cwielock said:


> So you have never hunted yotes with a 12ga? I do a lot! I will walk out with my 12ga loaded because I hunt some areas that have a lot of em and I'm well with in my legal right to do so. I don't need a predator call to hunt them. That's like saying you can't hunt ducks without a duck call.


What I mean is, if you are picking up decoys, you aren't really coyote hunting. With no way to know if you are lying or not, they will assume what it looks like. You could also argue that you are trap shooting, but that's ridiculous. If you could say you are coyote hunting whenever you violated any waterfowl laws, everyone would just say that. It's just not that simple. If it was clear that you were actually targeting coyotes, as opposed to picking up decoys, you might have a case. The CO will not appreciate you being argumentative and will give you a ticket for sure. 


I understand your argument, but you would get ticketed for sure for walking out with a loaded 12 ga, duck or deer hunting. And I'm sure it would hold up in court. Be glad you are on private land, so you probably won't get checked.


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## Zofchak (Jan 10, 2003)

Zero reason to have a loaded shotgun after shooting time, but I have to admit I have loaded up a few minutes prior a time or two (Especially while deer hunting). That bolt racking forward on a old Browning slug gun would chase deaf deer into the next county. 


Really it's as much a safety issue as it is a legal one. Picking up decoys, loading the boat, etc empty guns just makes everything that much safer.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

jwinks said:


> What I mean is, if you are picking up decoys, you aren't really coyote hunting.


Stop making logical sense! He got caught, pay the piper and move on.

Seriously, would love to be in court listening to some of these excuses and hear what a judge would say. Your fine would be minimal compared to your court costs. Again, just being logical.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

jwinks said:


> What I mean is, if you are picking up decoys, you aren't really coyote hunting. With no way to know if you are lying or not, they will assume what it looks like. You could also argue that you are trap shooting, but that's ridiculous. If you could say you are coyote hunting whenever you violated any waterfowl laws, everyone would just say that. It's just not that simple. If it was clear that you were actually targeting coyotes, as opposed to picking up decoys, you might have a case. The CO will not appreciate you being argumentative and will give you a ticket for sure.
> 
> 
> I understand your argument, but you would get ticketed for sure for walking out with a loaded 12 ga, duck or deer hunting. And I'm sure it would hold up in court. Be glad you are on private land, so you probably won't get checked.


While deer hunting my gun stays loaded until
I get to the truck. Always been that way. That will never change. 

Duck hunting? I unload as soon as shooting time is over.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

No reason to have a gun loaded after hours? You guys never hunted Bravo.

Walked out one time with geese pouring over head after hours, CO checks me. Gun is loaded. I told him that had I wanted to shoot I had several thousand chances, but loading that gun had nothing to do with geese but more to do with things with two legs. He agreed.


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## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

craigrh13 said:


> While deer hunting my gun stays loaded until
> I get to the truck. Always been that way. That will never change.
> 
> Duck hunting? I unload as soon as shooting time is over.


Now let's see, do I want to rack out rounds to potentially fly in the snow or get lost in the leaves in the half light, or do I wait until I can control it in my garage?

It's a no brainer, I do it with light in my garage, so in effect even though the rifle was on a sling on my shoulder pointing skywards the whole walk back, I am illegal, but I'll live with that fact because in my heart I have zero intent of ever taking that gun off of my shoulder, it just will not happen.
I would hope a CO would have some common sense a view it the same way, but I doubt it.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> hah. i got this ticket 20 years ago. came in front hunting wigwam. CO asked to go thru my ammo can. I was like..sure have at it. He found a rusted 20 ga #6 low brass in there. Comes over to me...'what is this?' lol. i was like man thats from SD trip last year, totally missed it while packing my can for the opener. $100 later... (this was like 99' i think)
> 
> none of us had a 20ga with us or even in our vehicles. common sense could tell the shell probably wouldn't even fire if tried. He used the "probably take it out there to water swat cripples to save money" then wrote me a ticket. Swear to god he was not a very bright officer. But hey...i paid it, was my mistake..left myself open to interpretation by a CO and he will 99% of time write you.


I would have to take that one to court, if only for general principle. Trouble is, fine is $100 and a lawyer is $300/hr +. Or you can fight it yourself, but court costs might get added to the fine. However, this one is a bad one. Further, the CO suggesting that a 20ga being used in 12ga is negligent - that one should be kicked up to the top. I also think the Lt. in charge of HS would like to know about that as well. It's covered in the book and the test. Unbelievable!


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

Go to page 12 & 13 of the hunting digest. There are very clearly defined hunting hours. If you choose to be loaded after these clearly stated times, then you choose to put yourself at risk of a ticket - it's that simple. Migratory waterfowl are even more restrictive. Not sure why one would follow the rules for one game animal and not the other.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/hunting_and_trapping_digest_461177_7.pdf


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

TNL said:


> I would have to take that one to court, if only for general principle. Trouble is, fine is $100 and a lawyer is $300/hr +. Or you can fight it yourself, but court costs might get added to the fine. However, this one is a bad one. Further, the CO suggesting that a 20ga being used in 12ga is negligent - that one should be kicked up to the top. I also think the Lt. in charge of HS would like to know about that as well. It's covered in the book and the test. Unbelievable!


got that exactly right. was up by au gres, woulda been total hassle to fight it. CO new he had me in tight spot so he wrote it. cost way more to travel up there to fight it than just pay the fine...which i mailed in. grrrr


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## quitintime (Jan 10, 2011)

Law is pretty straightforward, but if the CO determined there was no intent to shoot after hours it could have been a touchable moment by simply educating and issue a warning. On the other hand, the topic is getting a lot of traffic! As far as safety is concerned, to much stuff being tossed into a duck boat to leave a loaded gun unattended.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

TNL said:


> Go to page 12 & 13 of the hunting digest. There are very clearly defined hunting hours. If you choose to be loaded after these clearly stated times, then you choose to put yourself at risk of a ticket - it's that simple. Migratory waterfowl are even more restrictive. Not sure why one would follow the rules for one game animal and not the other.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/hunting_and_trapping_digest_461177_7.pdf


It’s more of, I’m gonna keep my gun loaded walking out of the woods at dark. If I see a ‘Yote or a pack of them you bet your ass I’m going to shoot them. 

Common sense needs to apply here. There’s clearly hunting after hours still trying to shoot some birds and a guy who didn’t unload right away but is nowhere near his gun but picking up decoys...making the shooting of game impossible...loaded gun or not.


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## Sofa King what? (Nov 1, 2016)

Do ya'll know any people that have been attacked by coyotes? I heard a news story of a toddler in arizona a few years back....but that's it....everytime I've encountered a coyote it's moving full speed away from me.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2007/12/killer_dogs_tried_to_attack_th.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

It's not unprecedented. 

Plus it is Halloween, there are a lot of boogeymen young and old.
What about if you got lost in a marsh or swamp. Are you not suppose to use 3 shots for help, yeah like that would work, lol, in hunting season. I guess the lost hunter should have been using arrows.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

PalookaJim said:


> The OP's buddy did violate the written laws regarding after-hours handling of a shotgun. This much seems to be without dispute. However the violation is, as they say, horseshit. If it matters to him, the violator should seek relief in the Courts. An otherwise law-abiding fellow might see a good deal of empathy from the right judge. Imagine giving a random judge the hunting guide and asking him to interpret the different rules regarding APR's/combo tags and how one might harvest a deer in every DMU in Michigan. 2+2= Potato, right?


Amen, stupid laws = stupid tickets.

I love the loaded gun on the car law as an example, that is a revenue generator nothing more. People need to realize that many of these tickets are firearm related, if you work in a sensitive occupation which seems to be almost everything these days you will not be hired or you may have some explaining to do.


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

It’s a garbage ticket. Welcome to the new crop of COs we agreed to pay for. 

I’ve mentioned this a few times but like all things government related their spending time with this nonsense instead of doing something beneficial. 

Just remember they work for and are paid for by us. 

Is this what we want them doing???


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

He doesn’t follow MS but thanx all that responded. He’s gunna pay it, said to just watch out for the young COs hiding in the weeds. Remember, no ones perfect. If they’re determined to write a ticket...they gunna get ya on sumthin. Guaranteed
Actually, Not a bad idea to take a lil walk behind the blind now and then. Never know what kind of creeps are lurking.


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## Ken Martin (Sep 30, 2003)

Lumberman said:


> Just remember they work for and are paid for by us.
> 
> Is this what we want them doing???


Their job?


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

This has been discussed here numerous times and the facts is that when it comes to waterfowl hunting the laws are so complicated that almost anyone can be cited for something if a CO wants to try real hard. They need to scrape the antiquated laws, or simply identify the tickets that are most dismissed by judges and take them off the books.


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## BassFisher91 (Sep 11, 2005)

Howitzer said:


> This has been discussed here numerous times and the facts is that when it comes to waterfowl hunting the laws are so complicated that almost anyone can be cited for something if a CO wants to try real hard. They need to scrape the antiquated laws, or simply identify the tickets that are most dismissed by judges and take them off the books.


Not sure how this is a complicated law...pretty much clearly states to not have gun loaded within shooting hours. People often look at the CO and stop the blame there. But for all you know his superiors may have gotten complaints regarding late shootings taking place, and therefore his superiors passed down an objective to find and cite people who may have something to do with this. The CO was doing his job. Was the OP's buddy doing anything egregious? No, but who makes the line, and what is the line, for a CO to fully enforce the law or to give a warning? 

I am in law enforcement, so often times I do take the side of the officer. But I am not afraid to say when an officer has been wrong or interpreted a law the wrong way. With that being said, I do not think the CO had interpreted this law wrong.


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## FISHMANMARK (Jun 11, 2007)

I think these laws were written when folks had a different mentality...

"If we had shall issue conceal pistol permits, there will be blood in the streets!"
"By god if they had a loaded gun after shooting hours, you know they will shoot if ducks come in!"

Personally, I unload at the end of shooting hours. I load a couple minutes prior to shooting hours. However, I think it is a pointless law. If you're not shooting, what is the big deal?


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

COs think that duck hunters are guilty unless proven innocent. I do not know where and how they get training to do their job? I guess there is not much screening when they get hired, having a such bad impression of hunters that he has to give him a bogus ticket. Wonder what his boss tells him when he tells him: I sneak in couple of hunters and got them for loading early and unloading late, got a few for boat light, and bunch for life jacket, flare and fire extinguisher.
Does ticket money goes back to DNR?


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Ken Martin said:


> Their job?



Yup, and also got pinched back in the days of no money!

Had a gun zipped up in a sleeping bag. Not enough I guess.... got a ticket for it in Gladwin County. In reality I could have won that one, but not inclined to miss a day's pay. I'm sure it's still on my record! 

If that was to happen now, I would hire a lawyer and define "cased"! Zippered case, or zippered bag! 

Define case!


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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

Sofa King what? said:


> Do ya'll know any people that have been attacked by coyotes? I heard a news story of a toddler in arizona a few years back....but that's it....everytime I've encountered a coyote it's moving full speed away from me.


I've had mixed encounters with coyotes. During daylight hours, they generally split when they see you. In the dark, I have had them stalk me a couple of times. The latest was when we moved a couple years ago. New house is in the middle of nowhere, no streetlights or other light pollution. When it gets dark, it is dark. Kept hearing leaves crunching in my yard as I was unloading a truckload of stuff into the garage. Lit them up with my Maglite and there were 2 coyotes about 30 yards away on the edge of the yard watching me.

Here's an interesting video I saw recently.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

BassFisher91 said:


> Not sure how this is a complicated law...pretty much clearly states to not have gun loaded within shooting hours. People often look at the CO and stop the blame there. But for all you know his superiors may have gotten complaints regarding late shootings taking place, and therefore his superiors passed down an objective to find and cite people who may have something to do with this. The CO was doing his job. Was the OP's buddy doing anything egregious? No, but who makes the line, and what is the line, for a CO to fully enforce the law or to give a warning?
> 
> I am in law enforcement, so often times I do take the side of the officer. But I am not afraid to say when an officer has been wrong or interpreted a law the wrong way. With that being said, I do not think the CO had interpreted this law wrong.


Well, your first line ,[clearly states to not have gun loaded within shooting hours. ] sure complicated it!

Nit pick or work on serious offence.
Nitpicking is not going to encourage support. Is it?
Did my nitpicking when you were not 100% in the right gain me support? But he was in the wrong your Honor! How can he be qualified to issue citations?


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## Cobb1973 (Oct 21, 2011)

Quack Addict said:


> I've had mixed encounters with coyotes. During daylight hours, they generally split when they see you. In the dark, I have had them stalk me a couple of times. The latest was when we moved a couple years ago. New house is in the middle of nowhere, no streetlights or other light pollution. When it gets dark, it is dark. Kept hearing leaves crunching in my yard as I was unloading a truckload of stuff into the garage. Lit them up with my Maglite and there were 2 coyotes about 30 yards away on the edge of the yard watching me.
> 
> Here's an interesting video I saw recently.


Thats a beautifull yote, If that did that after duck hunting hours, all of you that think you have to unload your gun cause you cant shoot ducks would have to beat it with your gun, Me I would shoot it and have a nice pair of gloves made out of its coat, Nothing in the law says I cant shoot a coyote on the edge of a marsh while picking up duck decoys, It does state I CAN shoot coyote 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year, hell I can even use a light, what ticket am I getting written again, cause there is no after hunting hours anymore, Its after duck hunting hours, after deer hunting hours, and many other game species, but not yotes, my point is change the law stop nit picking and saying he was wrong, The CO is writing a ticket for a unenforceable law, and it wont get changed till people fight it in the courts!!!! Lets say its gun deer, season, I hunt the marsh for ducks , I have to quit duck hunting at sunset, well I have a half hour to deer hunt I think I will just throw this slug in my gun, and hang out here for another half hour and see if a deer comes by, am I hunting after hours??? Nope Im deer hunting show me the Law that says I have to pick my decoys up and go get my deer hunting gear,


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## Duckhunter66 (Nov 24, 2013)

Some of you guys crack me up, first some of you say there is not enough LE out there and then you complain when they do their job, if its a law then its a law simple as that..if you don't like write Lansing or the Feds.

fsamie, if you were a LE and everyday by most everyone you are lied too wouldn't you think that?


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## BassFisher91 (Sep 11, 2005)

Waif said:


> Well, your first line ,[clearly states to not have gun loaded within shooting hours. ] sure complicated it!
> 
> Nit pick or work on serious offence.
> Nitpicking is not going to encourage support. Is it?
> Did my nitpicking when you were not 100% in the right gain me support? But he was in the wrong your Honor! How can he be qualified to issue citations?


Lol...what?

All you complaining about getting ticketed and in trouble for going against something that is clearly written in the books backs up my thought that nowadays most people like to blame someone or something else for their faults. Too bad...


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## BassFisher91 (Sep 11, 2005)

fsamie1 said:


> COs think that duck hunters are guilty unless proven innocent. I do not know where and how they get training to do their job? I guess there is not much screening when they get hired, having a such bad impression of hunters that he has to give him a bogus ticket. Wonder what his boss tells him when he tells him: I sneak in couple of hunters and got them for loading early and unloading late, got a few for boat light, and bunch for life jacket, flare and fire extinguisher.
> Does ticket money goes back to DNR?


I am nearly certain ticket money does not go back to the DNR, but the county the citation was filed and the Fish and Game Protection Fund.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

BassFisher91 said:


> Lol...what?
> 
> All you complaining about getting ticketed and in trouble for going against something that is clearly written in the books backs up my thought that nowadays most people like to blame someone or something else for their faults. Too bad...


You stated" not to have gun loaded during shooting hours." As if that was the law. Vs not to have it loaded outside shooting hours.
Think about it ,faultless one ,while I let you off with a warning this time.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

This whole thread is making me laugh. Thanks everyone.

In before it gets locked. LOL


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## jrose (Aug 17, 2011)

Bigeejakes said:


> First, I take offense to your statement about trap and skeet clubs... I have no idea what your experience is or what you're even getting at, but every skeet or trap club and member I have ever been to or meet are some of the safest gun owners I know. And most gun accidents absolutely do not happen at those locations.
> 
> And what is it that they do to the general public? Promote your rights to own firearms and become a better marksman and wingshooter? If more hunters would go to these establishments more often we would all be in a better position.
> 
> ...


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

Ken Martin said:


> Their job?


There job is to protect the resource and the participants. 

Not write BS tickets and harass hunters. BS tickets clog up the courts and are absolute distraction from anything positive. Forget the ticket. Think about the amount of time and resources that will be involved in this infraction. 

I was all for more COs. It would be really nice to call the RAP line when you see something egregious and actually get an answer. I support the DNR. 

They should rerun their license fee increase campaign with the tag line. “Hire more COs to harass hunter and fisherman digging deep for any kind of mistake we can find”. 

Example we hire more LEO to fight crime and end up with 6 new suburban’s sitting on the highway writing 5 over speeding tickets while crimes at all time high. Can you see the problem.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

The most common legal complaint waterfowl hunters have is against people shooting before and after legal hours. The co can't watch every hunter all the time, and so if it looks like you are trying to shoot a duck after hours, you should probably expect a ticket. The law is completely clear about this.


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## Cobb1973 (Oct 21, 2011)

Really??? so if it looks like your gonna run a stop sign or trying to speed you should get a ticket. Wow !


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## Cobb1973 (Oct 21, 2011)

jwinks said:


> The most common legal complaint waterfowl hunters have is against people shooting before and after legal hours. The co can't watch every hunter all the time, and so if it looks like you are trying to shoot a duck after hours, you should probably expect a ticket. The law is completely clear about this.


Your statement is laughable, lets write tickets to everbody that looks like they are gonna do something wrong please tell me your not in line to be a CO!


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Sigh...
Guess the flashlight should come off the barrel before tonight's hunt.
Wonder if the gun is unloaded ,if I'll get a ticket for having a white hanky tied behind the muzzle for a point of aim?


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Seems pretty simple to me. Law states no shells in gun outside of legal shooting hours, shells in gun before or after legal shooting hours = BREAKING THE LAW. So, pretty easy ticket to write and enforce.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

Cobb1973 said:


> Your statement is laughable, lets write tickets to everbody that looks like they are gonna do something wrong please tell me your not in line to be a CO!


Please understand, the law doesn't just say, "no shooting ducks after hours". It says you can't have your gun loaded after hours when duck hunting. The law gives the CO some room to actually deter violations. If everyone could just say "I'm coyote hunting", then it would be much easier to violate. You could even say "I shot at a coyote, but I missed". You would always have an excuse. 

Your analogy is terrible. If someone is lurking outside of your house with a crowbar and a gun, would you be happy to only charge them with trespassing? Or would you want to charge them with attempted burglary? But they didn't break into your house yet!?

Again, the law says you can't be loaded outside of shooting hours. I'm just telling you the reason that law exists.


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## ajkulish (Nov 16, 2013)

This thread is ridiculous. Post more pictures of ducks n ****


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

quitintime said:


> Law is pretty straightforward, but if the CO determined there was no intent to shoot after hours it could have been a touchable moment by simply educating and issue a warning. On the other hand, the topic is getting a lot of traffic! As far as safety is concerned, to much stuff being tossed into a duck boat to leave a loaded gun unattended.


You hit the nail on the head there. People are let go for misdeamenor/civil type infractions all the time. The guy wasnt knowingly breaking the law. Had he been hunting and trying to call geese etc.... write him up. Good Leo's know the difference between serving the public and sticking it to them.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

While I still think it's a bit heavy handed to slap a ticket for this, why not just unchamber your shotgun once you are done hunting? If you want personal protection, carry a handgun on you. Shotguns left chambered have a habit of being forgot about.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

This is a great thread. It has me thinking maybe I should try a duck or goose decoy on my next coyote hunt.


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## Jerry Lamb (Aug 3, 2015)

Lamarsh said:


> While I still think it's a bit heavy handed to slap a ticket for this, why not just unchamber your shotgun once you are done hunting? If you want personal protection, carry a handgun on you. Shotguns left chambered have a habit of being forgot about.


Bingo. First thing I thought of. Second was picking up and winding decoys in the dark with a loaded Shotty.
Good times.


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## Cobb1973 (Oct 21, 2011)

jwinks said:


> Please understand, the law doesn't just say, "no shooting ducks after hours". It says you can't have your gun loaded after hours when duck hunting. The law gives the CO some room to actually deter violations. If everyone could just say "I'm coyote hunting", then it would be much easier to violate. You could even say "I shot at a coyote, but I missed". You would always have an excuse.
> 
> Your analogy is terrible. If someone is lurking outside of your house with a crowbar and a gun, would you be happy to only charge them with trespassing? Or would you want to charge them with attempted burglary? But they didn't break into your house yet!?
> 
> Again, the law says you can't be loaded outside of shooting hours. I'm just telling you the reason that law exists.


So you still want to charge someone with a crime they didnt commit, hope I dont get a flat tire in front of your house, chances are ill have a gun ( my carry weapon) and a tire iron in my hand, If you shoot at a duck after hours you are hunting after hours. Until you fire that gun after hours at a duck you are breaking no law! Cause the laws contradict each other, it needs changed, I can open carry a shot gun, I can shoot other critters after legal duck killing hours, I can walk my property line at 3 am with a loaded gun carring duck decoys, a turkey decoy,a treestand strapped to my back, calls in my pocket, I am not hunting untill I shoot at said species or try to lure said species (ie: calling), period, you could write that ticket to everyone that hunts ducks, cause you prob unload to the minute of shootings hours for ducks, so technically depending how fast you unload your gun you are 1 second to 1 minute hunting after hours, thats what makes a co job so hard, they have to catch you in the act, they dont put a deer decoy out, and pull everyone over that stops and looks at it only the guy that shoots at it,


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## Cobb1973 (Oct 21, 2011)

ajkulish said:


> This thread is ridiculous. Post more pictures of ducks n ****


Here is some ducks n ****


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## ajkulish (Nov 16, 2013)

^^great looking dog!


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

Cobb1973 said:


> So you still want to charge someone with a crime they didnt commit, hope I dont get a flat tire in front of your house, chances are ill have a gun ( my carry weapon) and a tire iron in my hand, If you shoot at a duck after hours you are hunting after hours. Until you fire that gun after hours at a duck you are breaking no law! Cause the laws contradict each other, it needs changed, I can open carry a shot gun, I can shoot other critters after legal duck killing hours, I can walk my property line at 3 am with a loaded gun carring duck decoys, a turkey decoy,a treestand strapped to my back, calls in my pocket, I am not hunting untill I shoot at said species or try to lure said species (ie: calling), period, you could write that ticket to everyone that hunts ducks, cause you prob unload to the minute of shootings hours for ducks, so technically depending how fast you unload your gun you are 1 second to 1 minute hunting after hours, thats what makes a co job so hard, they have to catch you in the act, they dont put a deer decoy out, and pull everyone over that stops and looks at it only the guy that shoots at it,


Carrying duck decoys could easily be interpreted as "attempting to lure ducks". 

I'm not suggesting prosecuting someone for a crime they didn't commit. I'm pointing out that there is such things as "attempted" crimes. The waterfowl digest is clear about unloading your shotgun. I'm sure you won't get a ticket for unloading 30 seconds after hours. But you will for 30 minutes after hours. 

You can bet that if you pull up to a deer decoy, whip out a rifle, and take a long look at it through the scope, that they will have some questions for you, even if you don't shoot it. 

If they stop you in the woods at 3 am and they are convinced that you are honestly hunting coyotes, they probably won't ticket you. If you are using it as an excuse to get around a trivial law, they will ticket you. 

By the way, the moment you start coyote hunting after hours, you have other rules you will be violating. You have to wear orange when coyote hunting, if you are moving. You also are required to use a predator call if you are hunting at night. So unless you throw on some orange and start wailing on your cottontail distress before you pick up decoys, you will be violating. So, for most people, shooting a coyote on your walk back to the truck will violate several regs. Do you bring a predator call when you duck hunt? (I do, coincidentally)


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## duckaddict (Sep 23, 2014)

At what point is the horse dead?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

duckaddict said:


> At what point is the horse dead?


If it moves when you hit it...it must not be dead?


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

jwinks said:


> Carrying duck decoys could easily be interpreted as "attempting to lure ducks".
> 
> I'm not suggesting prosecuting someone for a crime they didn't commit. I'm pointing out that there is such things as "attempted" crimes. The waterfowl digest is clear about unloading your shotgun. I'm sure you won't get a ticket for unloading 30 seconds after hours. But you will for 30 minutes after hours.
> 
> ...


30 seconds after=criminal


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jwinks said:


> Carrying duck decoys could easily be interpreted as "attempting to lure ducks".
> 
> I'm not suggesting prosecuting someone for a crime they didn't commit. I'm pointing out that there is such things as "attempted" crimes. The waterfowl digest is clear about unloading your shotgun. I'm sure you won't get a ticket for unloading 30 seconds after hours. But you will for 30 minutes after hours.
> 
> ...


Required to use a call? I missed that law.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

Waif said:


> Required to use a call? I missed that law.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jwinks said:


> View attachment 278260


Great! Now I got to teach the dog how to blow a call.....


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

Waif said:


> Required to use a call? I missed that law.


I guess it does say "game call", so I guess you could just hit that coyote with a highball from your duck call. Maybe even after you shoot it. Let the other coyotes know that ducks are not to be messed with.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jwinks said:


> I guess it does say "game call", so I guess you could just hit that coyote with a highball from your duck call. Maybe even after you shoot it. Let the other coyotes know that ducks are not to be messed with.


Yeah ,I was wondering if the call had to be sounding when gun is loaded ,till gun is unloaded.
A call is good to use for calling though.
Guarding a gut- pile ,maybe not so much .
Will pack one though when rifle deer hunting ,fawn distress maybe. Or the rabbit squaller. Or both. I have yotes to kill.
Not comfortable doing it this timeof year after dark. The shooting,not the calling.
Have had yotes within 15 or so yards in the dark while field dressing. Again ,reluctant to fire a shot.......Would not look good if a yote was missed and an L.E.O showed to ask about the shot after dark.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

Waif said:


> Yeah ,I was wondering if the call had to be sounding when gun is loaded ,till gun is unloaded.


This is my strategy when i duck hunt public land.


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## cronkdre (Sep 11, 2012)

Lamarsh said:


> While I still think it's a bit heavy handed to slap a ticket for this, why not just unchamber your shotgun once you are done hunting? If you want personal protection, carry a handgun on you. Shotguns left chambered have a habit of being forgot about.


Just make sure your handgun isn’t loaded with lead bullets.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jwinks said:


> This is my strategy when i duck hunt public land.


Ha! I mean ..Hwaaanck, hwack ,hac,gak gak gak.


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## Cobb1973 (Oct 21, 2011)

Can you circle where it says hunter orange must be worn at night? I unload and case my gun after legal shooting time for ducks, mostly cause I hunt the managed units and see no need to have it loaded, and I am only able to hunt between the signs of the corn strips, all i am trying to say is it could be faught and won in court, and the law should be changed, This man that got a ticket was doing nothing wrong, 
And If I got this ticket on private property, I would be in court representing myself, with rule book in hand, and bring up michigan is an open carry state, and it would probably only cost me my time, dont need a lawyer for this one, I dont blame the CO, he is just doing his job, his job to write judges job to enforce, I hope everyone has a great duck season even the people that disagree with me, I have run my course on this thread and ready to move on, thanks for the compliments about my pup,


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

jwinks said:


> View attachment 278489
> 
> Did you have spaces or hyphens between the numbers and letters? If not, I'm calling the RAP line.


I have been guilty of that one. This is the first time that I read that rule. I have been asked for my fishing license several times when on the water and that has never been mentioned. Most of the time the CO gave me some tips on where to catch some fish.


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## Aaronjeep2 (Nov 18, 2016)

ridgewalker said:


> I have been guilty of that one. This is the first time that I read that rule. I have been asked for my fishing license several times when on the water and that has never been mentioned. Most of the time the CO gave me some tips on where to catch some fish.


I've been stopped a few time on saint clair and Iv had the same thing. All they wanted to do is check my fishing license and actual license. They always tell me where the fish are.


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## ice ghost (Jan 17, 2015)

That was the stupidest video of a "coyote attack" I've ever seen. Very appropriate for this thread.


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

The coyote night hunting would not fly either. A gun can only have a round in the chamber while in the act of calling from a stand. The minute your up and moving it has to be unloaded. The mag can still be inserted or rounds in the tube, just the chamber clear.

As far as loading in teh blind at teh start of shooting hour after sitting awhile... Why do you ahev to let the bold slam home. You can hold it and pretty much silently guide it forward, just make sure its fully seated.


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## tog1 (Jan 3, 2009)

Divers Down said:


> I got a CO warning that my boat MC numbers were “too close together” after practically a full body cavity search. Ever hear that one? I left the numbers alone and haven’t been messed with since


jammed #'s (no space between the MC 12345 XX and #'s and letters is a legit ticket and can be enforced by the CO, Sheriff or the Coast Guard. so getting a warning is a good thing. you should fix it. you may not be as lucky next time. (I'm a Coast Guard vet and used to warn for this but if someone gave me an attitude they would get a ticket if nothing else was wrong.)


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

Aaronjeep2 said:


> I've been stopped a few time on saint clair and Iv had the same thing. All they wanted to do is check my fishing license and actual license. They always tell me where the fish are.


I think it’s one of those deals “do you know why I pulled you over sir?” Sure it always starts with a simple warning issue then ends up with you being hauled off in cuffs. They got you stopped, oh you gittin a ticket for sumfin. My only ticket ever on the water was no rope on a throwable. He looked and looked forever to find something and the last thing he remembered he got me. Good work


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

OnHoPr said:


> Locke Nessy?? I dunno. I guess an argument could be contrived on the actual terminology of "hunting" from who's opinion. Picking up dekes at the end of the hunt is the end of the hunt. A loaded gun is in the marsh is hunting basically. An empty gun at that time could be fed ammo in a second after getting back to the blind with dekes if birds were landing. Opinionated technicalities would have to be deliberated on. I don't know any of the ?4589022.4563? sub section B-3 notifications of the library of congress stuff.
> 
> I have never seen anybody unload their gun exactly 30 minutes after sunset deer hunting. They all unload when they get back to the car or camp. What is that a billion or so violations in the last 5 decades that I can assume. If officer Reed "Adam 12" would have been there guberment officials would have been eating at Olive Garden 6 times a week instead of 2 a week.


Well I do. Guess I'm the odd one. And I unload right at quitting time on waterfowl...always have


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Had a CO measure the spacing on my MC #'s once while on a witch hunt. Pointed out they hadn't moved in the 20 years I've owned the boat...


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Someone want to write this CO a ticket? I count four guns resting on a tailgate. I'm guessing they were cased in the truck on the way to take this picture?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> nailed a bunch of guys here for it years ago. always unload at shooting time and never load before it.


yup. I really don't see what is unclear here? Not trying to be all "high and mighty", but we've always done it this way.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

UplandnWaterfowl said:


> Nope, never with anybody I hunt with. Everybody knows it is unlawful, now with cell phones I set an alarm for start time and when it goes off we load up, also set it for 1 minute before end time to give us time to unload and case our guns.
> 
> Why would you push the law for another duck. Same with deer hunting, always rack the mag after shooting time and unload and already climbing down at close.


Agree. With cell phones, we now have no excuse that our watches were set wrong. We do the alarm thing as well.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

fsamie1 said:


> COs think that duck hunters are guilty unless proven innocent. I do not know where and how they get training to do their job? I guess there is not much screening when they get hired, having a such bad impression of hunters that he has to give him a bogus ticket. Wonder what his boss tells him when he tells him: I sneak in couple of hunters and got them for loading early and unloading late, got a few for boat light, and bunch for life jacket, flare and fire extinguisher.
> Does ticket money goes back to DNR?


Oh for the love of god!!!! Where do they get their training? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE **** YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT??? They basically start by going through the same recruit school as the State Police. In fact, many CO's are stolen away from the MSP the day they graduate as an MSP officer. Then they get a ton of detailed and lengthy training specific to conservation laws. Ask any CO how much training they got when they started. I think you'll be surprised. GEEZ!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> This whole thread is making me laugh. Thanks everyone.
> 
> In before it gets locked. LOL


Exactly Robert!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

jwinks said:


> 30 seconds can be explained by your clock being slow, but 30 minutes shows that you are purposely violating. It's like driving 3 mph over the speed limit vs 10.


Does the person own a cell phone? Guessing 80% or more do. The clock excuse is therefore buried.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

All CO's are state police officers first and foremost.

I know one that tried to pull a lady over and she freaked out about the green truck with blue lights, locked down her car and called 911, and waited until the "police" showed up.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> All CO's are state police officers first and foremost.
> 
> I know one that tried to pull a lady over and she freaked out about the green truck with blue lights, locked down her car and called 911, and waited until the "police" showed up.


and vice versa. MSP or Sheriff's can, and HAVE, enforced fish and game laws. Brother is a retired MSP, and best friend is a retired Deputy Sheriff. Both assisted DNR often when they had time, and gave many tickets for violations. Of course they're both lifelong hunters and fisherman and know a walleye from a smallmouth LOL


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

This takes the cake as the STUPIDEST post I think I've seen in MANY years of haunting this site. The original whine about the ticket was fine...we all are allowed to whine when we want. But for many of you to say the ticket was BS is RIDICULOUS!!! This law is crystal clear. And SIMPLE to comply with. I've loaded/unloaded at the appropriate times my entire life of hunting...almost 50 years! I can't recall once spooking ducks because I loaded. Even when they were sitting in my dekes. 

For god's sake people, move on already!


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

just ducky said:


> This takes the cake as the STUPIDEST post I think I've seen in MANY years of haunting this site. The original whine about the ticket was fine...we all are allowed to whine when we want. But for many of you to say the ticket was BS is RIDICULOUS!!! This law is crystal clear. And SIMPLE to comply with. I've loaded/unloaded at the appropriate times my entire life of hunting...almost 50 years! I can't recall once spooking ducks because I loaded. Even when they were sitting in my dekes.
> 
> For god's sake people, move on already!


My OP was
... Anything in print on this one? Thanks”
Boy I got a lotta print...quite a learning experience.
Lol


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

just ducky said:


> Does the person own a cell phone? Guessing 80% or more do. The clock excuse is therefore buried.


I agree, but you can turn off the "set automatically" on your cell phone. I do that sometimes so it doesn't change time zones without my permission. I didn't say it was a good excuse. It's just better than, "I'm afraid of getting attacked by a 25 lb coyote swimming through a marsh"


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## eye-sore (Jan 7, 2012)

And remember people you never have to answer their questions....people get talkative and thats where the trouble starts. Or just follow the rules


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> This takes the cake as the STUPIDEST post I think I've seen in MANY years of haunting this site. The original whine about the ticket was fine...we all are allowed to whine when we want. But for many of you to say the ticket was BS is RIDICULOUS!!! This law is crystal clear. And SIMPLE to comply with. I've loaded/unloaded at the appropriate times my entire life of hunting...almost 50 years! I can't recall once spooking ducks because I loaded. Even when they were sitting in my dekes.
> 
> For god's sake people, move on already!


I second that motion, can we move to a vote and end this madness?


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## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

With rules upon rules upon rules at some point we have all broken them unintentionally and or by just making a mistake, I think all we ask for is for a C.O. to use a little common sense and take in the overall scene.
Was the action an attempt to immediately take game or additional game? Are there any other violations or was this just an honest mistake? Are there prior game law tickets or is this an isolated incident? What is the overall attitude of the person involved?

CO's can immediately sense when their dealing with a habitual scumbag or an honest hunter who just happens to be human. I just don't want to crab on a CO, and would hope they would not go for the easy ticket to look good and just access the situation and hand out a warning if deserving of one.


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## MasterBaiters (Jul 13, 2017)

from a man that has been written a traffic citation for 30 n a 25,and yes iwas going 30 I can only say the moon wasn't n your favor,sometimes your luck is all bad,but I always load my gun during firearm deer as early as I can once situated in my spot to avoid noise close to shooting time,and no I don't shoot at shadows or noises,otherwise id have fifteen dead neighbors,lol.


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## MasterBaiters (Jul 13, 2017)

We always unload our guns immediately upon ending our hunt for safety reasons,not so much cuz we are worried about a CO,know of a couple situations in which a dog has accidently caused the firing of a loaded gun tossed in a boat while out picking up dekes.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

Why did your friend not unload his gun when he was done hunting? 

Was it because he forgot or did he intend to shoot at any ducks that may come by?

I do not think it really matters.

He got a ticket and likely learned a lesson. I think that we all learned a lesson here. 

Unload your gun at the end of shooting hours.


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## flighthunter (Nov 21, 2005)

just ducky said:


> In fact, many CO's are stolen away from the MSP the day they graduate as an MSP officer.


I wonder where these recruits rank in the msp graduating class... bottom, top, random?

Any consideration given to previous days afield hunting, or just getting out into nature? It seems some co's are veteran woodsman, others probably voted for Bernie.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

just ducky said:


> yup. I really don't see what is unclear here? Not trying to be all "high and mighty", but we've always done it this way.





just ducky said:


> Then they get a ton of detailed and lengthy training specific to conservation laws. Ask any CO how much training they got when they started. I think you'll be surprised. GEEZ!





just ducky said:


> This takes the cake as the STUPIDEST post I think I've seen in MANY years of haunting this site.





Jimbos said:


> CO's can immediately sense when their dealing with a habitual scumbag or an honest hunter who just happens to be human. I just don't want to crab on a CO, and would hope they would not go for the easy ticket to look good and just access the situation and hand out a warning if deserving of one.


The regular joe smo doesn't get paid for extensive training of the laws. Maybe just a little inexperienced common sense, or just not methodically conscious of some of these actions. Maybe the badges would know that if they spent a few days at one of the DNR ranges a few weekends before deer season.


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## chromer101 (Oct 21, 2011)

I am trying to figure out where all of you are hunting? I hunt at least 20 times a duck season for the last 6 years and was only stopped once. The CO was really cool and even gave us some insight on more spots to hunt. Some areas that I hunt it feels like the wild wild west. You look in duck blinds and there is beer cans and trash all over. People doing really stupid things but yet no CO's around. Maybe they just hang out in the management areas but I would really like to see more of them. Bigger fines for trash would be a great start!


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

Wow, 12 pages of reading. It wasn't a total waste, either. I learned a few things:

1. Don't lean or set an uncased firearm on the truck. I didn't know that. I do now. Seems like a waste of a perfectly good tailgate being used as a table for getting ready on, but if that's the law, I am lucky I have not been checked while getting ready. I won't make that mistake again.

2. Some people are unconvinced that a law is a law. I can't fix that. Reading is fundamental. Comprehension, evidently, is not.

3. Hunter's Safety is something we all should take seriously. This thread has taught me that many hunters don't. Setting down a loaded firearm and walking away - for any reason - is asking for an "accident" to happen. Seriously guys, how hard is it to unload when you're done hunting, or even when you walk away to take a leak? Dogs can and do knock over shotguns, and sometimes they have been known to step on triggers and set them off. Wind can blow that tree your gun is leaning on and make the gun fall over. Is it worth the risk? If you're not holding your shotgun, for God's sake unload it! You can't shoot at anything if you're not holding it, but it CAN go off. Empty the chamber before you set it down.

4. Not every hunter believes that intent is everything. If you intend to obey the law, it will be evident. CO's are good at judging intent. If you load prior to shooting hours or fail to unload when shooting hours end, your intent is to have your gun loaded. That's enough to get you a ticket. Whether you intend to shoot or not is irrelevant, because the law states that if you are loaded it is considered hunting. If you get this ticket, you've earned it.

5. Some people are argumentative about settled laws. See #2 above. That's their prerogative on a thread like this. Try it with a judge. Judges tend to NOT be argumentative. Good luck.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Shlwego said:


> Wow, 12 pages of reading. It wasn't a total waste, either. I learned a few things:
> 
> 1. Don't lean or set an uncased firearm on the truck. I didn't know that. I do now. Seems like a waste of a perfectly good tailgate being used as a table for getting ready on, but if that's the law, I am lucky I have not been checked while getting ready. I won't make that mistake again.
> 
> ...


I’ll have to disagree with number 4. For as long as I can remember I’ve always loaded a couple minutes prior to shooting time. Not once have I ever ever shot before or even considered shooting early. That’s a bad habit of mine that I will have to fix.

Just like chasing cripples. I had to learn the hard way to not have a shell in my chamber while motoring to them or even out to the decoys to pickup a dead bird. I had zero intent to shoot while the boat was moving but by letter of the law I was in the wrong. Another bad habit that had to be fixed. That’s a law that I would love to see fixed and changed to be in line with the “sea duck zones” of the east coast. It would make chasing crippled divers far more efficient and less birds would be lost as such.


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

Shlwego said:


> Wow, 12 pages of reading. It wasn't a total waste, either. I learned a few things:
> 
> 1. Don't lean or set an uncased firearm on the truck. I didn't know that. I do now. Seems like a waste of a perfectly good tailgate being used as a table for getting ready on, but if that's the law, I am lucky I have not been checked while getting ready. I won't make that mistake again.
> 
> ...


Your welcome, I’m here to educate fellow violators.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

flighthunter said:


> I wonder where these recruits rank in the msp graduating class... bottom, top, random?
> 
> Any consideration given to previous days afield hunting, or just getting out into nature? It seems some co's are veteran woodsman, others probably voted for Bernie.


When my brother graduated from the MSP academy, he was approached by the DNR to become a CO, as were several of his classmates. Even though he was a lifelong hunter/fisherman, he chose to follow the MSP path, but some jump for the DNR opportunity. His reasoning was that being a CO in this state is often MUCH more dangerous than being a police officer. Think about it...many of the people the CO runs into are carrying weapons, and often drinking. It doesn't appear that the DNR is going after any particular "rank" of graduate. To graduate at all from the MSP academy takes quite a bit of perseverance. My understanding is this is common practice between the MSP and DNR, because basically it benefits the state of Michigan and it's residents. And they don't particularly get outdoorspeople to become CO's either. In fact, you'd be surprised how little they pay a CO, and with that being said, many people can make more in other fields.


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

[ In fact, you'd be surprised how little they pay a CO, and with that being said, many people can make more in other fields.[/QUOTE]

Your post is reason to love and hate the internet simultaneously. It construes easily searchable information as fact, misleading many. Directly from the MSP webpage:

Starting salary for a Trooper 10 position is approximately $44,000. The maximum salary for a trooper position is approximately $66,000 at 20 years of service.
Troopers receive health, dental, vision and life insurance from the State of Michigan.
Troopers earn 13 vacation days in the first calendar year, accrued four hours every two weeks. Additional vacation time is accrued based on years of service.
State of Michigan employees receive 12 paid holidays per year.

For reference, the average HOUSEHOLD income in MI for 2015 was 51k.

So yes, this may not seem like much for mr policemen, but once you count the benefits, and overtime, I know of many MSP that make six figures. As they get older, it is common for the superiors to up their pay through packages for OT/special skillset needs, to increase their retirement packages. They can live quite high on the hog after three years of six figure plus pay, due to how State of Mi calculates the retirement package wages. I'm not saying they don't earn it, or that they cannot make more money elsewhere. But I know several state cops who retired in their 50's with VERY substantial retirement benefits.


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## cvg6 (Jan 7, 2016)

I have a story about Harsens Island before the draw system was introduced The island has always had a lot of pheasants, and in those days duck hunting was just a scramble so you hunted where you could but after the legal shooting hour for waterfowl you had another half hour of legal time for small game. The pheasants would fly out of the refuge and on many a day I would shoot my two roosters in that half hour the only thing we had to do was switch hats today a lot of pheasants still live in the cattails of my local marsh so I switch gears i have to shoot them with steel but it works and i believe on the card at the bingos when you turn it in there is a spot for other game just make sure you have an orange hat The times we got checked they knew exactly what we were doing


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## Aaronjeep2 (Nov 18, 2016)

cvg6 said:


> I have a story about Harsens Island before the draw system was introduced The island has always had a lot of pheasants, and in those days duck hunting was just a scramble so you hunted where you could but after the legal shooting hour for waterfowl you had another half hour of legal time for small game. The pheasants would fly out of the refuge and on many a day I would shoot my two roosters in that half hour the only thing we had to do was switch hats today a lot of pheasants still live in the cattails of my local marsh so I switch gears i have to shoot them with steel but it works and i believe on the card at the bingos when you turn it in there is a spot for other game just make sure you have an orange hat The times we got checked they knew exactly what we were doing


My grandfather and his brother used to hunt harsens way way back in the day late 50s early 60s. said it was the best duck hunting ever then once they made the bingo crap it all went to hell. They wouldn't hunt the island after they made the bingo. The bingo is a bunch of bs I've seen guys get top 10 drawls sat-sun for weeks in a row. Your going to tell me they are that lucky.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

Aaronjeep2 said:


> The bingo is a bunch of bs I've seen guys get top 10 drawls sat-sun for weeks in a row. Your going to tell me they are that lucky.


Omg. It was probably collusion with Russia to hack the harsens island drawing lottery.


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## sparky18181 (Apr 17, 2012)

fsamie1 said:


> COs think that duck hunters are guilty unless proven innocent. I do not know where and how they get training to do their job? I guess there is not much screening when they get hired, having a such bad impression of hunters that he has to give him a bogus ticket. Wonder what his boss tells him when he tells him: I sneak in couple of hunters and got them for loading early and unloading late, got a few for boat light, and bunch for life jacket, flare and fire extinguisher.
> Does ticket money goes back to DNR?


A whole lot of CO bashing going on here, but I haven’t seen one issue where the person wasn’t violating a game law. I hear a lot of complaining about getting caught. As a matter of fact these CO s go thru over 22 weeks of training and take their job serious. Are there some that are over eager, Im Sure there are but for the most part they are just out there doing their jobs. These men and women have a tough job as do all LEO s If you think you have been improperly cited, then go to court and plead your case. In my eyes, laws are laws and if the CO choosing to enforce them with a ticket, it is his job. If he wants to give a verbal warning, then that’s his perorgative also.


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## sparky18181 (Apr 17, 2012)

NbyNW said:


> [ In fact, you'd be surprised how little they pay a CO, and with that being said, many people can make more in other fields.


Your post is reason to love and hate the internet simultaneously. It construes easily searchable information as fact, misleading many. Directly from the MSP webpage:

Starting salary for a Trooper 10 position is approximately $44,000. The maximum salary for a trooper position is approximately $66,000 at 20 years of service.
Troopers receive health, dental, vision and life insurance from the State of Michigan.
Troopers earn 13 vacation days in the first calendar year, accrued four hours every two weeks. Additional vacation time is accrued based on years of service.
State of Michigan employees receive 12 paid holidays per year.

For reference, the average HOUSEHOLD income in MI for 2015 was 51k.

So yes, this may not seem like much for mr policemen, but once you count the benefits, and overtime, I know of many MSP that make six figures. As they get older, it is common for the superiors to up their pay through packages for OT/special skillset needs, to increase their retirement packages. They can live quite high on the hog after three years of six figure plus pay, due to how State of Mi calculates the retirement package wages. I'm not saying they don't earn it, or that they cannot make more money elsewhere. But I know several state cops who retired in their 50's with VERY substantial retirement benefits.[/QUOTE]
To be clear. CO s don’t earn or have the same benefits at troopers They are not in the same union and get very little overtime. Don’t lump them in the same boat when it comes to wages


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## blklab (Jan 5, 2011)

Aaronjeep2 said:


> My grandfather and his brother used to hunt harsens way way back in the day late 50s early 60s. said it was the best duck hunting ever then once they made the bingo crap it all went to hell. They wouldn't hunt the island after they made the bingo. The bingo is a bunch of bs I've seen guys get top 10 drawls sat-sun for weeks in a row. Your going to tell me they are that lucky.



Weren't you picked in the top 5 last week and hunted anchor bay instead. Lol you can always hunt somewhere else


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

Aaronjeep2 said:


> My grandfather and his brother used to hunt harsens way way back in the day late 50s early 60s. said it was the best duck hunting ever then once they made the bingo crap it all went to hell. They wouldn't hunt the island after they made the bingo. The bingo is a bunch of bs I've seen guys get top 10 drawls sat-sun for weeks in a row. Your going to tell me they are that lucky.


if you are suggesting there is cheating in bingo, I am sure you are wrong. I started hunting Harsens when John Shaffer was running the place and now John darling. Both are very honest and good individuals. Absolutely not, it is just luck as I was drawn last and 2 before last in last 2 draws.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

NbyNW said:


> [ In fact, you'd be surprised how little they pay a CO, and with that being said, many people can make more in other fields.


Your post is reason to love and hate the internet simultaneously. It construes easily searchable information as fact, misleading many. Directly from the MSP webpage:

Starting salary for a Trooper 10 position is approximately $44,000. The maximum salary for a trooper position is approximately $66,000 at 20 years of service.
Troopers receive health, dental, vision and life insurance from the State of Michigan.
Troopers earn 13 vacation days in the first calendar year, accrued four hours every two weeks. Additional vacation time is accrued based on years of service.
State of Michigan employees receive 12 paid holidays per year.

For reference, the average HOUSEHOLD income in MI for 2015 was 51k.

So yes, this may not seem like much for mr policemen, but once you count the benefits, and overtime, I know of many MSP that make six figures. As they get older, it is common for the superiors to up their pay through packages for OT/special skillset needs, to increase their retirement packages. They can live quite high on the hog after three years of six figure plus pay, due to how State of Mi calculates the retirement package wages. I'm not saying they don't earn it, or that they cannot make more money elsewhere. But I know several state cops who retired in their 50's with VERY substantial retirement benefits.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but you misinterpreted my statement. I said CO's don't make a whole lot. Yes they can get OT, and make money, but they work hard for it. Do they make more than the average Michigan citizen? Then can. But let's compare apples to apples with the work being done. It's a very demanding and dangerous career.

MSP officers do have a very generous package. For one thing, they can retire after 25 years making 60% of their pay. Good gig? Yep. Do they earn it? Yep. I told my brother years ago I was thankful there were people like him that accept a job where you are wearing a bullseye on your back 24/7! He has stories of running into dirtballs he arrested, at the store, the bowling alley, etc., etc. It's a very different career and life, and so I don't have a problem with their somewhat lucrative retirement bennies. CO's on the otherhand have a regular state employee retirement, which is good, but no where near what the MSP retirement is.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

just ducky said:


> In fact, many CO's are stolen away from the MSP the day they graduate as an MSP officer.


This is not true.


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## blklab (Jan 5, 2011)

I've had a co make us load our magazines in our guns at the launch area at harsens to check for plugs. I guess he forgot his tool that day! Asked another co about it few weeks later he said wtf!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

dead short said:


> This is not true.


???? explain? "stolen" may be the wrong term, but many graduates of the MSP academy are hired by DNR as CO's


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

I would estimate maybe 10 troops have been hired in the last 20 years. 

With the loss of retirement and current wage gap it's not that desirable anymore. Plus most state troopers out of the academy are not looking to go through another academy again anytime soon.

MSP troopers are required to go through the same hiring process and academy as any other applicant.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

OnHoPr said:


> ........
> I have never seen anybody unload their gun exactly 30 minutes after sunset deer hunting. They all unload when they get back to the car or camp............


I am far from being a purist, but I don't think I have ever carried a loaded weapon after dark or loaded at car/cabin before daylight. I might if I hunted in wolf territory. I can't see anyone climbing up or down a ladder/climbing sticks with a loaded weapon.
Interesting that you think this is common. One of us way of the mark.

L & O


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Liver and Onions said:


> I am far from being a purist, but I don't think I have ever carried a loaded weapon after dark or loaded at car/cabin before daylight. I might if I hunted in wolf territory. I can't see anyone climbing up or down a ladder/climbing sticks with a loaded weapon.
> Interesting that you think this is common. One of us way of the mark.
> 
> L & O


I don’t know a single person who unloads at time. Every single person I know unloads at the truck.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

craigrh13 said:


> I don’t know a single person who unloads at time. Every single person I know unloads at the truck.


I still don't understand why not though. The times are published right down to the minute in the guide for September through December. I just don't know why when it comes to that time of the day people don't unload their stuff.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

Liver and Onions said:


> I can't see anyone climbing up or down a ladder/climbing sticks with a loaded weapon.
> Interesting that you think this is common.


I have never hunted in a tree stand during any of the gun seasons. I do not know of anyone of my acquaintance either. I hunted waste land public just like most of my acquaintances. You must hunt private, just like most of your acquaintances. If I put a tree stand on the public land I hunted it would be someone else's tree stand within a few days. Most of my former acquaintances have hunted 20 to 45 years and have never even shot a buck (3" or higher). If you hunted in an area that you might only see a buck every 5 to 10 years maybe you would be shooting if you could get a decent shot. No sense waiting your whole life for the area to rebound to 3 or 4 pts on one side or better.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

OnHoPr said:


> I have never hunted in a tree stand during any of the gun seasons. I do not know of anyone of my acquaintance either. I hunted waste land public just like most of my acquaintances. You must hunt private, just like most of your acquaintances. If I put a tree stand on the public land I hunted it would be someone else's tree stand within a few days. Most of my former acquaintances have hunted 20 to 45 years and have never even shot a buck (3" or higher). If you hunted in an area that you might only see a buck every 5 to 10 years maybe you would be shooting if you could get a decent shot. No sense waiting your whole life for the area to rebound to 3 or 4 pts on one side or better.


Why and the hell would anyone hunt in an area that you only see a buck every 5-10 years? That’s just stupid.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

dead short said:


> I still don't understand why not though. The times are published right down to the minute in the guide for September through December. I just don't know why when it comes to that time of the day people don't unload their stuff.[/QUOTE
> ]
> 
> Just out of habit. Not saying it’s right. I’ve never shot after shooting time ever. Definitely could have though.


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## Cobb1973 (Oct 21, 2011)

dead short said:


> I still don't understand why not though. The times are published right down to the minute in the guide for September through December. I just don't know why when it comes to that time of the day people don't unload their stuff.


Cause people have the right to protect themselves 24 hours a day 365 days a year. There is not a game law that is gonna change that, If I didnt have my cpl, I would open carry my shotgun or rifle, before and after a hunt, to and from my truck, Those that wonder why I need protection, I say watch the news,


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

craigrh13 said:


> Why and the hell would anyone hunt in an area that you only see a buck every 5-10 years? That’s just stupid.


Well, if you have property there since the '60s and/but that's huntin camp and you live/d in the area as well, I guess that is where you hunt. A lot of people do, you know Huron National Forest Iosco cty. Turkeys were introduced, back then decent pat huntin, good trout/steelhead fishin, weekend warrior family rec stuff. I usually went to Alcona or Ogemaw, though. I think I have only shot one buck in rifle season there since the '70s. My ex BILs 10 acre hunt camp in the Pigeon River State Forest has never got a buck since they started in the '70s, Vanderbilt. My uncles 10 acres in Newaygo cty, Baldwin produced a filled doe permit once in a while, Manistee NF. Most of/ a lot of NF and SF camps are like that. Where else is somebody suppose to go, lease property, scout for two months and then ask for permission, buy 100 acres just for a deer, most of MI joe smo sportsmen have other interest. They didn't grow up watching Bucks of Tecomate.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

Cobb1973 said:


> Cause people have the right to protect themselves 24 hours a day 365 days a year. There is not a game law that is gonna change that, If I didnt have my cpl, I would open carry my shotgun or rifle, before and after a hunt, to and from my truck, Those that wonder why I need protection, I say watch the news,


Just so long as we agree that there are game laws that do restrict that, and you are just ignoring them, because you have decided that the second amendment and michigans "open carry" lets you do whatever you want. 

By the way, there is no law in Michigan which says that you have a right to open carry. This is a "right" which is implied by the lack of a law prohibiting open carry. Which means that when a law restricts your ability to carry a gun, say hunting for example, there is no legal argument that conflicts with that.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

Cobb1973 said:


> Cause people have the right to protect themselves 24 hours a day 365 days a year. There is not a game law that is gonna change that, If I didnt have my cpl, I would open carry my shotgun or rifle, before and after a hunt, to and from my truck, Those that wonder why I need protection, I say watch the news,


Until it's successfully challenged and deemed unconstitutional or changed at the state level it is the law of the land.


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## charcoal300zxtt (Sep 8, 2011)

How does a debate of this magnitude take place during season? You should all be hunting or scouting!


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

charcoal300zxtt said:


> How does a debate of this magnitude take place during season? You should all be hunting or scouting!


Hahaha.....I have to debate this stuff all year long.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

charcoal300zxtt said:


> How does a debate of this magnitude take place during season? You should all be hunting or scouting!


Can certainly do both. Like before or after shooting hours, except for when I'm fending off coyotes and serial killers with #4 Kent fasteel.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

jwinks said:


> Just so long as we agree that there are game laws that do restrict that, and you are just ignoring them, because you have decided that the second amendment and michigans "open carry" lets you do whatever you want.
> 
> By the way, there is no law in Michigan which says that you have a right to open carry. This is a "right" which is implied by the lack of a law prohibiting open carry. Which means that when a law restricts your ability to carry a gun, say hunting for example, there is no legal argument that conflicts with that.


I thought that laws were not suppose to be made curtailing the constitution. So, city and township laws curtail MI law and MI laws curtail Fed or constitutional laws sometimes. I suppose that's why there are constitutional law/lawyers besides other LEs and watch dog groups. Why do the feds have to go to the big cities all the time? Are not those law makers and enforcers abiding by the law? Heck presidents are always getting impeached, mayors are going to jail, and US Attorney Generals are stepping down.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

OnHoPr said:


> ....... You must hunt private, just like most of your acquaintances...........


You are correct. So we have been gun hunting from trees for about 20 years. Before then, I did walk in and walk out in the dark with an unloaded gun. Not really because it was the law(like I said, I'm not a purist) but because it was safer. 

L & O


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