# spawn help



## Drakegunner (Nov 21, 2007)

I know this may sound like a dumb question to all of you veterans, but I have little experience with fishing river salmon. I was wondering, what type of egg cure is best specifically for kings? And is fresh skein better than cured? Also any rigging help would be greatly appreciated. Any post or pm's would be helpful.

Some info for your troubles- I was at the mouth of the Betsie today and saw a lot of fish pushing towards the river from all directions. Tried floating some spawn in the hole, but no takers. I just don't have any confidence in how I am attempting to fish. Again, any help would be much appreciated.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

1) The biggest mistake people make when fishing skein is that they fish it too deep. Just because a hole might be 10' deep, doesn't mean you fish that deep. Experiment with different depths. 

2) Kings don't always take a bobber under--fact. Sometimes, your bobber will just tickle a little bit, almost like a small bluegill bite. You set the hook and lo and behold, the gut (skein) is down in their throat. Watch the bobber at all times. In slower water, even the slightest dip or tickle means a king is chomping...especially when you're set up to fish shallower. 

3) My experience has proven that for me, cured gut will outfish the fresh stuff day in and day out. HOWEVER, most cures take a week or so before the eggs are really ready to fish with. Why? The longer they set, the more scent they get and the more they milk out underwater. Scent is EVERYTHING when it comes to fishing kings with gut. I started curing eggs for this year about three weeks ago and I date every bag. For this weekend coming up, I'll use the oldest stuff. What I cure this weekend, I'll use a couple weeks from now, etc, etc, etc. Scent, scent and more scent...that is the biggest key when fishing skein. 

4) Learn to tie an egg loop for your hook. I don't have the diagram handy, but if you google egg loop or egg knot, you should find the diagrams on how to tie it.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Gut wisdom! 
I got both of T.C's books. The Art of Gut and Get the F**k outta my Hole,Fudgie!
Both are must have reads.
All kiddin aside, nice post
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

wintrrun said:


> Gut wisdom!
> I got both of T.C's books. The Art of Gut and Get the F**k outta my Hole,Fudgie!
> Both are must have reads.
> All kiddin aside, nice post
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awesome--LMAO!!! :lol::lol::lol:


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## earl (Sep 7, 2007)

However, if you want to fish between now and Thursday, cut your skein into bite sized pieces, cover it in borax, leave it uncovered on newspaper in the fridge for about 3-6 hours, flip it once; go 2-4 hours. Throw it in a ziplock with a smidge of extra borax; tie a number 10 red 3x eagle claw treble under that bobber and go fishing.

And let that bobber drift a little further away...


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## big_phish (Jan 1, 2009)

Really good thread, I learned a lot. Sorry I don't have anything to add but I've been having problems with skein curing myself.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Ya know T.C. was right as presentation is the key when you float skein for salmon. I will jump out on a limb here and pass on one of T.C. favorite salmon jigs.the T.C. Tickler.
These things keep a whole king skein in the strike zone and you will understand why all us gut brothers fish "meat sticks".
Only place you can find these is a certain camp site @ Insta Launch and you can only buy them after dark.


















This is how they come. You have to paint them yourself:evilsmile


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## fishn' 4 life (Jul 24, 2005)

I love how its always the same discussions year after year. They never get old though! I rarely ever have to pose the questions since everyone else always has the same questions. You'd think by now I'd be a pro...I guess I'll blame that on the 3 1/2 hour drive and two kids under 3 that aren't quite ready to fight a king much less hold a 9' rod!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jomat (Jul 26, 2010)

I love that there are so many egg chuckers on this board (not so many in NY)....my favorite and I believe most effective method of getting comfortable early run kings.

I've got a good lake connection that starts dropping off roe about this weekend every summer. The only problem with most lake guys is they don't bleed out their fish....if I harvest a hen she is always bled dry. After that it's into a clean 5 gallon paint bucket with a generous sprinkle of cure covering all skeins. I cover the open bucket with Cling wrap and let them juice up down stairs in my canning cellar. Stays nice and cool down there during the summer. I usually move them around in the now juice filled bucket about once every 12 hours. After 2 -3 days I package them in freezer bags, dividing up the juice evenly between bags, squeeze as much air out of the bags as possible, and toss in the freezer. I agree that the more cure time the better, and I'll also throw in there that a bit of time in the freezer doesn't hurt either. I've had last years eggs fish better than eggs cured that week. I know some guys air dry their cured eggs or coat them in borax....i keep my eggs as wet and messy as possible, I think its a bit of an advantage, especially in frog water.

As far as cures go I've caught fish with every prepackaged cure I've tried, (of course I have my own favorite).....but I will say red has been the most productive color, but throwing orange or natural colored eggs out there will get you bit as well......especially in holes that have already been fished heavy.

It's amazing how light a king will bite skein.....i think they're just jawing on it to crush it. I use relatively light floats most of the time 8-11 grams. And shot them down real low in the water so even the lightest bites show up.

Its good to see so many guys pumped about actually "catching" salmon! Good luck!


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

The most important thing to realize is that none of us on here woke up one morning and suddenly had a clue how to do this. So, your confidence will come with hook ups and the only way to get those is to keep trying, then try again, then try some more. All it takes is a few good bobber drops, then the light bulb starts to go off.

I mean, several years ago when I made the "switch" from fishing upriver in October (gravel) to fishing the lower rivers far earlier, I jumped in headfirst with barely a clue. I threw crank bait after crank bait and it took awhile for the light bulb to go off. Then I got confidence, started finding more spots, and then started catching a lot more fish that way. Then one day, while I'm tossing cranks, I literally got my a** handed to me by these guys fishing skein. I sat there from where I was anchored and watched them put on a clinic. So, I thought, "OK, you ****ers, I catch the hell out of steelhead on bobbers, wait until 'ol Hutch gets out here again." So, Next weekend, I had a skein rod in my hand and I discovered that it's kind of a whole different ball game than fishing steelhead under a bobber. I had fresh gut, learned the egg loop, had kings jumping all around and that bobber never twitched. I was like, "what the ****???" Me, I'm the type that's...I'm not going out like that, so to speak. So I intentionally never picked up my crank bait rods that weekend and I stayed out there and I was gonna get it no matter what. I started playing around with depths and sizes of gut on the hook and pretty soon, bobber drops--fish on! After that, each year got better and better and better. 

Point is: No matter what, we all started at zero. KEEP AT IT and the confidence will come. All it takes is one good day and you'll have something to build on.

Hell, next thing you know, you'll be buying a seperate fridge that ends up looking like this: 










Never mind the bacon and fruit--that's going up north this weekend. Like I said, I've been going to every cleaning station, gathering gut and curing my egg supply for this year for the last three weeks and I consider the above to be "a good start." When I get done, there won't be any room for bacon. LOL!!!


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## SteelheadMasterWiggins (Sep 23, 2008)

The one thing I would like to add that I haven't seen anybody say is time dont put your eggs in the fridge and leave them there for days, cure them in the first 12 hours or u are wasting your time.U will get a much better product the sooner u cure your spawn. also it is an absolute to bleed the fish.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

I am a big fan of curing and putting up enough skein to fish the following year.
I have had a chance to try out a lot of cures on skein and would have to settle on just plain old borax as my goto. It's convenient and you can find it in just about any store, anywhere in the state or country.
I think the biggest part in fishing skein is in knowing the water you are fishing and having 100% confidence in your set up and delivery. Understanding where the fish are at and where your bait needs to be goes a lot further than any colored dyes or artificial flavored cures. That is just my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Right on TC. Yeah I was amazed at how light some of these big kings hit. Its almost a shocker when your float barely moves (we have a lot of creek chubs here) then you decide to set the hook and its fish on. Very different from when a steely slams your bait and buries your float. 

I have a buddy who would fish gravel areas with skein so he can watch the fish hit. He often noticed the kings would inhale the eggs chomp down on them as to kill them, then spit them out. 

IDK about up there but down here the more I cure my skein and the more additives I use the better it works. Often times plain borax has only been effective for steel. The steel seem to like any spawn early in the season. Im not a big fan of ready made cures but the color I can get out of out Firecure can not be duplicated. It is a stronger cure but if done correctly results in some awesome spawn. I just seen guide Tim Roller on youtube promoting Pautzke's borx o fire cure. It looks like a light cure and I may give it a go this season for steel. For kings I'll stick with borax and any other colors, scents or additives i feel like adding. Plus when things start getting hot borax is one of the most cost effective ways to cure skein along with plain salt and sugar.

I think Tim Roller is a bad *** fisherman I have one of his spring steelhead dvd's. It sucks his fish is no longer the record. Well I tried posting the link but the whole video came up? Oh well

Here is the youtube link check it out!


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## jomat (Jul 26, 2010)

A couple other things to mention.....Hooks...some of my steelhead buddies use their wimpy size 6 and 8 hooks, not the right application IMO. I use a size 2/0 Gammi egg hook.....about the largest allowable hook gap here in NY anyway. These fish are big, mean, and have very hard mouths. Not the place to be messing around with a steelhead hook. Its also much easier to tie a skein loop with 10lb fluoro on a larger hook shank.

Also rods....last couple years I was using mostly my 15' float rod that I use for bigger water steelhead. Also the wrong application, I didn't lose fish or blow up the rod, but got real close to being blown out of some holes or blowing the rod to pieces fighting those big males. This year I've opted for the 11'3" Lami 8-15lb. This will let me run my 10-12lb tippet and horse fish without having to worry about blowing my rod up.

FWIW I use a centerpin for all my bobber fishing and its an absolute blast to fight kings with.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

I also had the same train of thought about big hooks. I used to use size 2 hooks but last year used mostly size 4's. I think the bigger the hook the more skein you need to use to cover it. Also in bigger hook sizes the gauge of the metal is thicker which will in turn require a stronger hook set. I noticed I got better hooksets with smaller hooks. Almost forgot to mention there is a max. hook gap of 1/2 inch down here.

I just think hook size should match bait size. Small chunks small hooks, big chunks big hooks, same for sacs small sacs small hooks big sacs, etc. I've noticed when fishing any kind of bait hook size is an important factor.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

jomat said:


> This year I've opted for the 11'3" Lami 8-15lb. This will let me run my 10-12lb tippet and horse fish without having to worry about blowing my rod up.


I have 3 of the 11'3" lamis and love them. Make a nice high water steelhead rod as well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brookies101 (Jun 23, 2008)

Cool link! Stuff looks pretty crazy


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

Does anyone use any corky's or wobble glows when drifting skein?


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

ANother thing I've noticed. You can run heavy line and not worry about covering it up chucking skein. Bobbering the Betsie last year I took 10lb flouro, couldn't hold fish. Decided to run the straight 14 lb Pline CXX and guess what...fish came it and stayed out of logs.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

diztortion said:


> Does anyone use any corky's or wobble glows when drifting skein?


I make drift bobbers outta big spin n glows and tip them with raw shrimp or chunk of skein.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Those kings are definitely not line shy, that's for sure. I don't mess around with flouro's or anything like that, I run 6/20 power pro as the main line, a buffer of 20lb Sufix that my weight goes on, then a 15lb Maxima leader. Bright sunlight, middle of the day, doesn't matter--when those kings get a sniff of that scent trail coming down, they get stupid. 

Again, it's all about the scent--which is why I go through so much skein. I give one piece about six casts and then I'm putting a new piece on. 90% of the time, Every bobber drop I get is within the first two or three casts after putting a new piece on, so yeah...I go through a lot of the stuff.


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## Drakegunner (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks for all of the great info. It's nice to be able to get some REAL info. I do have a couple more specific questions.

#1. When you fish skein, is it always under a bobber? If so, what kind of bobbers should I be buying? (the more specific the better)

#2. T.C.- for your described set-up, is that for a bobber?

#3. What type of weights should I buy?

#4. Types of cures for eggs- What is your fav for kings specifically. I bought some pro-cure wizard nat. glo. Is that good stuff? What is your fav commercial cure for kings?

#5. Noticed a lot of people talk about adding scent to their eggs, what should I be adding, if anything? (I even read some where about a guy using grenadine syrup) Again- some real info would be great.

I realize I'm asking a lot there. And for some-I'm probably asking too much. I realize there is a learning curve to everything. I am completely new to this, but I am committed to learning. 

T.C.- I whole-heartily agree with what you said about confidence and focusing on something to learn it. I'm wired the same way.

I haven't been able to fish all summer due to my open-heart surgery in June, and I would sure like to be able to have at least a little success this fall. (I'm not sure if I could even handle a salmon yet. Sternum is still healing, but I'm giving it a go) I've been out 3 times and have yet to even hook a fish. Maybe God is protecting my chest I did catch a bullhead however.

If you want to p.m. me that's fine as well. Again- thanks for your willingness to help.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Drakegunner said:


> Thanks for all of the great info. It's nice to be able to get some REAL info. I do have a couple more specific questions.
> 
> #1. When you fish skein, is it always under a bobber? If so, what kind of bobbers should I be buying? (the more specific the better)
> 
> ...


1) and 2)--what I've been describing is for fishing with a bobber. You can also use a technique called "Walking gut" which is on the bottom and you're basically walking it downstream behind a boat. This is a totally different animal that takes some practice, so for now, let's stick with the bobber. Here's a pic of a mini rig I just tied up so you can get the idea of how I rig: 










bobber goes on the power pro and I put a 1/4 ounce egg sinker on my buffer line. Usually my buffer is about 2' to 3'. my leader is usually about 18" 

I just buy the bigger Thill bobbers (at Gander Mt.), replace the spring with rubber tubing and for added visibility, I glue a fly fishing strike indicator to the top of it. Besides, there's this evil side of me that takes great pleasure in knowing that a fly fishing strike indicator is being used for fishing gut. :evilsmile

Scent--the best scent is the natural scent that you get from letting cured eggs set in the fridge for a week or two. I do not add any scents...I go natural, BUT I cure them and let them set in the fridge for a week or two to get that natural, fishy type scent.

PM sent on the cure, but I HATE commercial cures. They end up making your eggs smell like chemicals and turn them into something that resembles a gob of rubber. Some people may like them, but not me--I'll stick with the tried and true homemade cure that was handed down to me and I'm forbidden to describe in a public forum.


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## samsteel (Oct 6, 2008)

thousandcasts said:


> Besides, there's this evil side of me that takes great pleasure in knowing that a fly fishing strike indicator is being used for fishing gut. :evilsmile


deviously genious!


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## Buttonfly (Oct 28, 2002)

Where do you get the Borax? Is it still the 20 Mule Team stuff? I've checked at Meijer and Wallyworld in Kalamazoo with no luck.


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## punkapotamus (Aug 23, 2010)

skein at a reputable establishment like BBT? Its kind of hard to get a salmon to harvest the eggs to cure to use to catch a salmon (you get the point). Its the chicken or the egg principle. Where do us newbies start?


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

punkapotamus said:


> skein at a reputable establishment like BBT? Its kind of hard to get a salmon to harvest the eggs to cure to use to catch a salmon (you get the point). Its the chicken or the egg principle. Where do us newbies start?


Every fish cleaning station along lake Michigan will have skein that you can cure up. 90% of the big lake guys have no use for it and will gladly give it to you.


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## punkapotamus (Aug 23, 2010)

My buddies brother in law is a big lake guy and I will check with him. Thanks for the advice. I would never have thought of it.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

thousandcasts said:


> I glue a fly fishing strike indicator to the top of it. Besides, there's this evil side of me that takes great pleasure in knowing that a fly fishing strike indicator is being used for fishing gut. :evilsmile


It is the most hillbillyish looking thing in the world, but it does work and I've been converted. Can't do the extra super ultimate long drift if you can't see your float.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Wow the more I learn from guys on this site the more I realize how different northern fish are versus southern fish. Could hatchery fish possibly have different tastes compared to natives? IDK?

As far as I know most shops can not sell skein because a fish must be killed to get skein. While loose eggs used for sacs can be milked from the fish. 

I just checked i have ten+ bags of skein from last year I'm glad some of them are lightly cured with plain borax. Thanks TC!


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## fishn' 4 life (Jul 24, 2005)

thousandcasts said:


> 1) and 2)--what I've been describing is for fishing with a bobber. You can also use a technique called "Walking gut" which is on the bottom and you're basically walking it downstream behind a boat. This is a totally different animal that takes some practice, so for now, let's stick with the bobber. Here's a pic of a mini rig I just tied up so you can get the idea of how I rig:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So I get that its best to let the eggs marinate for a while but how long can they sit in the fridge for until they go bad? What are you tips on freezing eggs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

Why the "buffer"? Is it to help cut down on the friction? Or is just something that you found works?


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

fishn' 4 life said:


> So I get that its best to let the eggs marinate for a while but how long can they sit in the fridge for until they go bad? What are you tips on freezing eggs?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They'll keep for a couple months at least if cured right. As for freezing them, sure--they'll just be even goopier for next year...which isn't a bad thing. 



> Why the "buffer"? Is it to help cut down on the friction? Or is just something that you found works?


I started rigging that way several years ago for steelhead. 8 to 10lb buffer, 6lb leader. Even though kings can be stupid and not line shy most of the time, I just don't like the idea of running straight colored braid down to the leader. So I went with what works for me and use the buffer and if it breaks off, I still have my weight and what not and just have to tie a new leader on. I use the yellow Power Pro because it's easier to see if you're getting any bow in your line or what not.


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## foxfire69 (Sep 10, 2006)

thousandcasts said:


> Again, it's all about the scent--which is why I go through so much skein. I give one piece about six casts and then I'm putting a new piece on. 90% of the time, Every bobber drop I get is within the first two or three casts after putting a new piece on, so yeah...I go through a lot of the stuff.


But Master...couldn't you reconstitute used skein in a seperate bag of cure to be used later thus saving the precious Gut?? White can be a Hot color for Steel in November!!


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

foxfire69 said:


> But Master...couldn't you reconstitute used skein in a seperate bag of cure to be used later thus saving the precious Gut?? White can be a Hot color for Steel in November!!


Lmaoooooooooo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## salmo'dog (Aug 24, 2007)

foxfire69 said:


> But Master...couldn't you reconstitute used skein in a seperate bag of cure to be used later thus saving the precious Gut?? White can be a Hot color for Steel in November!!


Ummmmm...He's got a point there ! :lol:


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## Fishbone (Oct 10, 2008)

Holy ****. Coated in pink.













:chillin:


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## fishn' 4 life (Jul 24, 2005)

Does setup or technique differ when fishing skein in smaller rivers like Platte or Betsie while wading?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

You don't always need a float (bobber) either though. Actually, I almost never use one.

This is what I do:

I run a mainline of choice. I slide on a #10 snap swivel, add a bead (optional) and tie in a small barrel swivel. I then add a pencil lead (to the snap swivel) of the size needed to get close to the bottom.

Then I tie a "leader" to the opposite end of the barrel swivel, about 3-4' long and at least 2# lighter test than my mainline. Tie on a hook of choice and add spawn. Cast this just slightly upstream to allow it to sink towards bottom as it gets close to being 90 degrees in front of you. Let it drift all the way until it starts to rise toward the surface, keeping a tight line all the way through the drift. At the end of the drift, let it sit up high for 10 seconds, then retrieve and do it again....casting towards a diferent "spot" each time.

I do believe this is still the most widely used rig in MI.

Personally, I'm usually fishing in deep, long and FAST runs and pools in excess of 15' deep. I usually need 1 oz pencil lead. I have fished numerous places, such as the Ausable, that are very similar where I only needed 3/8 oz though. It all depends........I've even gone down to 1/8 oz. in shallower frog water and up to 1 1/4 oz in deeper and faster runs.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

fishn' 4 life said:


> Does setup or technique differ when fishing skein in smaller rivers like Platte or Betsie while wading?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't say about the Platte since that's not a river I fish nor do I really know s*** about that river, but for the Betsie or PM, I don't change a thing. I fish gut in those rivers the exact same way I would in the bigger rivers.


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