# One quick question



## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

jimbos43, anyone legally shooting a deer is an ethical hunter - absolutely! 

In the case of DMU 118, where the point requirement is 3 on one side, I would consider the hunter who makes an honest mistake and shoots a forkhorn to be an ethical hunter. (The COs in DMU 118 have done a good job of not issuing citations for these honest mistakes)


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## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

Huntnut, bwiltse,
Points well presented and well taken. My main concern is the health for the population that still exists. I understand and agree in the reduction of the populace to aid in the health of those that survive. I also believe that some of the smaller bucks need to survive to build a strong heard. But I believe a strong heard can only be created by genetics.
I guess its programming. Based on my own visual concepts the phrase "only the strong survive" is defiantly meant for the species that live in the wild. Because of this I feel genetics should fall into place. I guess the real question I have here is does QDM want to go state wide or just in the areas that the population needs adjusting. If it's just the area that needs adjusting how do you plan to decide which areas? Not to bash the DNR but they haven't been able to do that sense day one. It sounds like what you want is a slot limit. For that I think the need of a slot limit really needs to be proven. 
Remember many hunters today are meat hunters and many are trophy hunters. I for one am both. A trophy for me is something I had to work for. If everyone is able to get a 10 point than the 8 point I had to work so hard for is no longer a trophy. Hunting to me means putting my time in. Learning what I can about the area I wish to hunt. Trying to outsmart the king of the jungle. When they all become kings, how do I define the word hunt?


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## yoda (Jan 26, 2000)

Jamie, If you don't mind me asking, how big was the buck you killed last season ??... And is that the only buck you have killed ??


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

"If everyone is able to get a 10 point than the 8 point I had to work so hard for is no longer a trophy."

Why?

And why is the 10 point better?

A 10 point should be no better than an 8 point and no better than a doe.

A deer is a deer...and we hunt for them.

Saying someones 10 point diminishes your 8 point is truly endorsing a trophy mentality.

I'm not point discriminate, I am age discriminate.

I passed a 1.5 yr old 8 point last season, but whacked a 2.5 yr old 7 point the year before. The 7 is my largest deer so far.
I didnt get a buck this year, but passed on a few young guys.

A deer is a deer, and a doe fills my freezer just as good as a young buck.

I was very successful in my deer hunting last year, I took 2 doe.

I was successful because the property I hunt is infested with doe, and I know this property very very very well.

I used my hunting skills to manage my area's herd.

It really has nothing to do with antlers for me, it has everything to do with managing my deer.

My balanced herd is a much better trophy to me and a better success indicator to my hunting skills then any rack I have left over after season.

It's a mindset I guess.

My wldlf bio schooling has had more of an effect on my hunting practices then any other factor.

Hunt


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

> All i'm saying is because someone shoots a spike under the current rules and laws in a lawful manner, it does not make them a slob hunter, and they should not be made to feel guilty and looked down upon or talked down upon.


i never said it did or say it should.

the problem lies with the hunter who continually perpetuates this practice.

i continually hear hunters complaining about the state of the deer herd and yet they don't think for a minute that maybe their own harvest practices are to blame.

i hear people say that the numbers of deer are way, way down in their area and still they will harvest the first buck to walk in front of them, where is the logic?



> When a quality buck is taken on a QDM area, the pride can be shared by all property hunters because it was they who produced it by allowing it to reach the older age classes which are necessary for large bodies and antlers.


and what is so terrible about this statement, just stating the fact that they are being rewarded for the sacrifices they have made and is evidence that QDM increases these oppurtunities.

yoda, it was a 2.5 year old 7 point and no.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2002)

I all honesty i've never seen anyone complain about antler size on this site except the QDM'ers Jamie.

Now regarding the lack of deer sightings, or numbers, yes there's been lots, but antler size, nope.


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Oct 1, huntnut has made some good observations and I'll try not to duplicate, while shedding some general thoughts and beliefs regarding your questions/comments. Also, I recognize that once into a QDM program, things may end up somewhat differently than originally envisioned, however, we can always adjust if necessary. 

A more natural deer herd should be a stronger deer herd. And when you mention that some areas of the state would benefit more from a QDM program, I believe you're correct. In this regard, the southern LP has a very productive deer herd and conditions, and stands to greatly benefit from a QDM program. While QDM may not benefit certain areas near as much as others, it nonetheless should be beneficial. If we had a perfect deer situation, that is outstanding habitat, nourishment, easy winters, balanced sex rations and age structure, and deer densities well within the safe carrying capacity margins, QDM would then be in a maintenance mode - it would still have a reason for being around and shouldn't go away.

You also alluded to the challenge of the hunt. Just because we have an older age structure, doesn't mean its going to be easy to go out and shoot a mature buck. If you're currently successful at harvesting bucks, I would expect that to continue under a QDM program and vice versa. 

I'm not sure what you mean by slot buck management, as we would expect all age classes over 1 1/2 year old to increase. Now granted, there would be a primary shift in the buck harvest from 1 1/2 year olds to 2 1/2 & 3 1/2 year olds, but there also should be a measurable increase in older age classes as when yearling bucks make it through a hunting season, they're usually a much smarter animal and more difficult to hunt.

You mentioned genetics. An an older buck age structure should be beneficial. Habitat, nourishment and weather are also of primary importance


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## yoda (Jan 26, 2000)

Jamie I don't hit this forum much so maybe you have answered these questions before, But it seems like you like to type so here I go
1. How long have you been involved in QDM 
2. How long have you been hunting Whitetails in Michigan 
3. How many Bucks have you killed that meet QDM's Standards, (2 1/2 plus years).
4. Have you ever killed a Spike or Fork horn 
You keep wanting to Sell, Sell. Sell. Tells us how QDM has helped the area that you hunt. Have you seen a improvement in Body size or antlers. I see by your profile that you hunt 90 day a year, is this all whitetail hunting ?


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

i am a deer hunter, for the past number of seasons i have let more bucks walk than i care to divulge. in the process myself and my hunting party have harvested far more antlerless deer than antlered. yes a first time hunter or someone who has never harvested a deer was allowed the oppurtunity to harvest a buck(any buck), the rest were encouraged to harvest antlerless deer and let the little guys live to see another season. 

the first season of hunting the property (we are talking 80 acres, not a huge tract of land) my hunting party that consists of 4-6 hunters during gun season, 3 during bow, noticed an immense number of does and began the process of thinning the herd, we took 2 does per hunter 12 does and no bucks, several were seen but none were harvested, we have continued this for 4 years and it is paying off. the does are bigger, birth rates are higher, producing more buck fawns, a lot of twin button bucks, and the buck population is beginning to recover, even though most of our neighbors do not practice qdm. 

we have harvested 5 bucks in 4 years all respectable 6,7,8 point deer with 14-16 inch spreads as well as 46 does. we have noticed a drop in the number of deer sightings but still see plenty of deer and have intern been able to let many does walk in the process. last year i saw as many bucks as does and that was a first in my hunting experience and had the oppurtunity to harvest a nice 2.5 year old buck. we have seen first hand that QDM works and look forward to this season and what lies ahead not only for my individual hunting party but for others who choose to practice QDM.

yoda, i have never seen a spike or 4 point in my hunting area, the majority of 1.5 year old deer are 6-8 points. this is no joke and many find it hard to believe but it's the absolute truth. So. Mi.

i became an active, payed member this year but have been practicing QDM for 5 years on owned and newly acquired surrounding leased properties.

70+ days of whitetail hunting. bow,gun, and muzzleloader. i have taken 2 immature bucks 6,7 point respectively, 3 QDM class bucks 9,8,7 points 2.5-4.5 years old. however only one was harvested while activily practicing QDM. i have been hunting for 14 years.QDM has changed my whole perspective when it comes to hunting, i look at myself as a hunter/manager, instead of hunter/taker. 

i initially took the role of an information provider and tried to stress the virtues of QDM on this site but after continued battering, challenges, confrontations, etc. i have developed a pretty calloused exterior and i am pretty quick to pull my own hair trigger on people that i percieve to be doing anything to undermine QDM at any cost. sometimes it all looks the same, it is hard to nail down intention, point of view, tone and senserity over the internet.


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

> but after continued battering, challenges, confrontations, etc. i have developed a pretty calloused exterior and i am pretty quick to pull my own hair trigger on people that i percieve to be doing anything to undermine QDM at any cost.


Jamie

You have provided some very good information through links, statistics, and your own experience on the subject and I appreciate your efforts. But based on the above quote, perhaps your perceptions may be a bit flawed from what I have read. Im sure you realize the people reading posts on this site represent far less than 1% of Michigans deer hunting population. 

I believe (now I cannot back this up with facts) that the majority of folks reading these posts want to implement some form of QDM and make strides for a healthy deer herd. They do not want to undermine QDM at any cost. Many are looking for information and then get sucked into the debate (as I am now). But from what I have read, you are the source of much of the debate because of your hair trigger and the manner in which you can sometimes demean, er..debate / confrontate. 

The goals and objectives of QDM need to be communicated to about 747,000 more people beyond this forum. I sure hope it can be done among the general public in a less argumentative manner. I hate to single you out, but we need a calmer voice to educate and promote the general hunting public on QDM. 

Just my thoughts


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

> They do not want to undermine QDM at any cost.


tell that to joe archer,beer and nuts, boehr, erik, jimbos, beagle,stinger, the list goes on and on.



> Many are looking for information and then get sucked into the debate


they do not seek information, they seek to debate the undebatable, when provided with information and fact they choose to challenge to the point of rediculousness. they do so with opinions, misinformation and misunderstandings, not with one ounce of fact.

if that isn't undermining i don't know what is. they have their views and they will never change. that is fine with me but it's another story when they try to spread this misinformation.

just the truth.

my perception has never been clearer.


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## BEAGLEMAN (Oct 16, 2000)

"they do not seek information, they seek to debate the undebatable, when provided with information and fact they choose to challenge to the point of
rediculousness."

Jamie, 
I think a lot of people on this site would say that is a pretty good description of you!


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## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

Gentlemen,
I have been coming to Michigan Sportsman for approximately a year and a half now. I have found it to be a very informative web page. I don't pay a lot of attention to what is going on in the world, and with the way the world is, I find it hard to get the desire to become actively involved. When it comes to hunting or fishing I turn to this web page to see what is happening when and where. I find that there are some of you that have the time to get involved in things more dynamically than I do, or care to do. There are many of you that are very well educated in the outdoors. My outdoor education comes from hearsay and OJT. Please excuse me for this. (Yes I'd like some cheese with this wine.) 
I have heard a lot about QDM and figured where can I learn more about it than here. In the past few posts I have received some instructions as where to find out more information on this subject. I appreciate and thank those that have been courteous enough to supply it. I am a person that will make my own decisions about something and not allow someone else to forcefully direct me. Your education and proof is what I am looking for. 

Huntnut, 
You wanted to know about why a ten point would be a greater trophy to me than an eight point. Well as I said I am a meat hunter and a trophy hunter. I believe there aren't many that will be honest enough to admit that.
I really enjoy the taste of venison, so I hunt for the meat. I also like the bragging rights that comes with a large wall hanger. So I am also a trophy hunter. I don't hang spikes or forks on my wall. Why? Because most hunters have a few of them. Theirs no bragging rights or competition involved with a spike, or a doe for that matter. 

So far QDM shows me that If the habitat is good and the deer are allowed to grow to 4 or 5 years old, there will be a lot of 10 points around. Nature has proven that. So being of the mind set that I am if there were 10 points everywhere what would be the point in shooting an eight. I can shoot anything for just meat.

O.K. I have heard those from the QDM instructing how important it is to remove the over abundance of doe in an area that is over populated with doe. I agree, and have been doing that to the point its time to quit doing that in my hunting area. I have noticed that I see fewer deer but bigger deer. This can only mean that the habitat for the fewer is more abundant. 

What I still need to know from a QDM rep. is what constitutes a quality deer. What I have learned so far is everything does. Habitat, age, and deer ratio. If this is correct than why wouldn't a heard of spikes qualify as a quality heard? Because the age factor is left out? What I understand the age factor does is makes the deer bigger physically, and allows the antlers to grow larger and makes the meat taste worse. Why would those that are meat hunters want an old tuff liver tasting piece of meat on the plate when a younger one tasted so much better?????

I guess my questioning may sound ridiculous to some, and I am sorry that I am just now getting into this. I know you find yourself answering the same question over and over again, but that is what's nice about this web page. Even if you ask what type of broad head to use you get responsible quality answers over and over again. 
Please remember who ever responds that your objective is to persuade me to your side so teach me. If you're going to try to degrade me please don't answer. 


Thank you,


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

beagleman, opinions are like *ssholes, everybody has one.

facts are facts, truth is truth. i have never swayed from either.


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Oct.1, I think your odds of harvesting an older and larger buck will be greater under QDM but it will never be a substitute for honing deer hunting skills, as these older bucks will be very wary and will not be so abundant that all you have to do is take a leisurely drive anytime to spot trophies. I'm passionate when it comes to the whitetail deer and do try my best on selling QDM. If you are thinking of QDM from the standpoint of harvesting trophy bucks, you will probably end up being disappointed. 

Having said that, you will still have a better opportunity of harvesting or seeing a trophy buck in the wild, as the buck age structure will be more balanced with QDM.

There are always going to be varying degrees and opinions of what constitutes healthy. In this regard, I believe that a more natural deer herd will result in a stronger / healthier deer herd (I'm not saying our current deer herd is unhealthy and falling over from disease, although a stronger and more natural deer herd should reduce the impact and/or exposure to disease.) 

As far as the meat, I've haven't noticed a big difference in the taste quality based on age. I think the taste quality has more to do with preparation - field dressing, and butchering process. 

Oct. 1, I appreciate you asking questions and will continue to encourage questions from anyone, as I would like hunters thinking of getting involved with QDM to be able to make a good informed choice.


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## BEAGLEMAN (Oct 16, 2000)

jamie,
Like I said.....


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## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

Bwiltse,
Its a pleasure to continue to grow in knowledge about this subject through informative education presented the way you have presented it. Like I said I am very opinionated. Over time I may come around fully. For now I'll continue to learn and practice what I feel is best for the deer in the area I hunt. 
Thanks again for your time and patience.
Oct.1


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Oct. 1, if you're interested in expanding your knowledge on QDM and deer management issues, I can't think of a better "bang for your buck" than attending the April 13 QDM workshop at the Jackson County Outdoor Club, and easy 40-45 minute drive from South Lyon (see separate thread, and also copy of promotional flyer at www.qdma.net follow the link to Five Rivers Branch workshop).

In particular, the presentation by biologist Brent Rudolph, "Deer Population Biology and QDM" is first-rate; I know I learned plenty when I experienced it, and he's refined the presentation since then. I got several comments from guests at a Sept. '01 workshop which he appeared, a common refrain being, "see if you can get this guy back for another workshop."

Hope to see you and your friends there!

DT


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Oct.1,

A healthy deer is a deer that reaches it's biological potential. For both sexes, body weight can be a big determination. More weight, more meat-great for the "meat" hunters out there. In order for a deer to attain it's weight potential, it must first off live in a herd that is below the carrying capacity of the land, so that the land can provide the best resources for growth. A deer cannot reach it's potential if it lives in a population level that promotes stress and herd caos, such as a yearling buck dominated age group herd and the reselting wasted breeding energy.

Another measure of herd health is fawning rates. Last hunting season, here in the central to northern U.P., we had an avg. of 1 fawn to 7 does. Those fawns that were conceived grew inside the mother most of the prior winter. The drew precious resources from the doe and in turn were either aborted, or born with premature body weights, and to a mother too weak to effectively nurse and care for it's offspring.

A good sign of a healthy herd is in the amount of rut sign. The presence of older bucks during the rut creates a calm and orderly breeding atmosphere. A yearling dominated breeding atmosphere creates wasted energy, with increased chasing and energy robbing activities effecting not only the smaller framed yearling buck, but the does as well. Yearling participants in the breeding picture can be gravely effected with needed fat losses and a weakened overall body condition. This is a huge concern in especially the U.P., but it is also important in areas of light winter loss as well. Weakened bucks that survive the winter can be negatively effected the following spring in body weights and recovery, as well as antler growth.

Also, a healthy habitat is a sign of a healthy herd. Many say what has QDM done for the habitat with their proposals, well, if the deer herd is at or below the carrying capacity of the land, that is a huge step towards quality habitat. A friend of mine down in AL manages various private deer herds. Many people in AL who fence their properties do so not to keep the deer in the fence, but to keep the deer out. Populations inside most managed fences are 1/4 that of outside the fence, sex ratios are 1:1, and consequently, body weights are double. At the same time, inside some of the enclosures(most are 1000 to 3000 acres) that have been managed for 10 years or longer, over 100 different plants species will exist. Out side the fence there are less than 20. Those deer on the outside of the fence appear healthy, but if their body weight is cut in half, and there are close to 100 preffered food species not available to them-are they actually healthy?

Some areas in the U.P. do not need doe harvest, and that is part of the QDM equation-keeping your herd at or below the carrying capacity of the land-if you don't need to shoot the does-don't. But the buck age structure is still a real problem, and can be addressed.


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## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

Quote from Oct.1 :

" What I still need to know from a QDM rep. is what constitutes a quality deer. What I have learned so far is everything does. Habitat, age, and deer ratio. If this is correct than why wouldn't a heard of spikes qualify as a quality heard? Because the age factor is left out? What I understand the age factor does is makes the deer bigger physically, and allows the antlers to grow larger and makes the meat taste worse. Why would those that are meat hunters want an old tuff liver tasting piece of meat on the plate when a younger one tasted so much better?????"

Quality Deer Management does not refer to any single deer but to a specific herd, that is to say to a specific POPULATION which can be considered individually as such : enough animals (geneticists say at least 500 at the breeding ages), in a given specific territory, self sufficient to perpetuate itself in good conditions along time.

As in ALL others wild large mammals polygynous species, the population is made up of a certain number of animals of each sex and class of age. This population structure is pictured by a "pyramid of ages" : in the case of deer, fawns are the first base "layer",yearlings the second one upwards and so on to the top, where all animals of a given class of age have disappeared.
The general NATURAL disappearance pattern results of vulnerability to predation, meteorological conditions, disease, wounds and age : as a result, around 50% of the new-comers do not reach the third year. From there up to the age full body growth is reached, animals are largely spared because they are normally not involved in rutting. Thereafter, up to the top of the pyramid Nature resumes its toll.
The end result is such that ENOUGH full grown males are present to insure a NORMAL breeding competition between themselves, breeding competition which has so abundantly demonstrated its efficiency from immemorial times.

Alas appeared a high hunting pressure which has nothing to do with the natural selection shortly described above : this can only disorganize a normal population structure, especially the male part of it ... due, of course, to "trophy-mania" ...
This puts an end to the efficient natural breeding competition, leaves young males to rut before they are fully grown, interferes with their good physical condition, and survival. Secondly also with their body and antler growth as both go together.

Hence the near total absence of males at their apogee ( BODY AND ANTLER wise ) is an objective sign of a poor population structure, of a poor mating competition : of course, the end results will only become evident much after we are all gone ...
My conviction is that Man cannot pretend to interfere with a Natural scheme, or Law, without having necessarily to pay the price later on...

Inside any given population, all other things being equal (if that is EVER the case ...), for genetic reasons, inside any class of age, there will always be males with stronger antler than others, most likely following a "BELL"/ "GAUSS" curve, lets say 25% below average, 50% average, 25% above average.

A quality deer, be it an "8 points world record", can just be the end result of very special circumstances, including a lot of luck !!!
In no way does it mean the herd, the population is "Healthy" in the broadest meaning of the term. 

As I understand it, a QDM goal is not at all to strive for large racks as such, it is just to strive to manage individual, specific deer POPULATIONS so as to protect natural breeding competition, which in turn will garantee the same efficient perpetuation as in the past, before Man so severely came into play.
It just so happens fully grown males wear larger racks than younger ones, not for hunters pleasure, but because that is the way Nature found to best guarantee a healthy striving deer population in the long term.

In THIS perspective, the quarrel QDM / TDM is senseless ... except if it results of bad faith !!!

As to the "meat" aspect of hunting :
I do think a younger deer is better to eat than a REALLY old one, but my experience is also tenderness is one thing, taste another !!!
In any case, is the deer long term future less important than a short lived eating pleasure ??? 

Jack.


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Nice rounded informative post Jack.

I agree completely.

Hunt


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## DFR (Sep 8, 2000)

Once again I ask. QDM states that I should refrain from shooting "immature" 1.5 yr old bucks and espouses shooting more does. Nowhere have I seen where the does I shoot should be "immature"or mature. Would it not follow that in QDM's eyes that there should be the same limitations on the does that they want on the bucks? It would seem to me that the mature does would be the ones you would want in the QDM herd but no one seems to care what age class of doe gets shot.


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

Great point DFR. 

Myself, I have always tried to take the middle doe based on body size in a family group. I often see one or two matriarchs with their fawns, but in the family group last years 1.5 years olds are usually hanging around with them. Those are the doe I choose to harvest more often than not with hope the big doe can teach the fawns the art of winter survival. 

That begs the question about altering age structure of the deer herd on how I practice my doe harvest? I think my practice is countered by those who may shoot the biggest one they see. 

Is there an official QDMA stance or recommendation on how one should choose to harvest a doe as it relates to age structure within the herd?


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## H2OFowl'er (Oct 26, 2001)

Bill Gray
Certified Wildlife Biologist
Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries, states, 



> On a socio-biological level, nature never intended for many of our deer populations to be in the shape they are in. The negative effects of poor buck age structure and unbalanced sex ratios are well documented by countless university and private studies as well as research conducted by DWFF biologists. These negative effects include extended breeding and fawning periods as well as the virtual absence of mature buck sign and natural breeding behaviors. Such characteristics are not indicative of total deer herd health. Fortunately, these problems can be corrected through sound management. Sound management can only occur in an environment of sound information and trust. The DWFF is striving to foster this environment  the future of Alabamas deer herd depends on building and maintaining our credibility through a diligent educational approach.


This was taken from a report done by the Agricultural Extension Service,The University of Tennessee: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genetic traits are determined by both sexes, not just the bucks. Factors influencing genetic quality are complex. Studies have shown that most yearling bucks with small antlers actually are able to produce quality antlers upon maturity, and these perceived inferior bucks are the result of overpopulation and young age, not genetics. When yearling bucks comprise the majority of the harvest, the buck age structure is too young, resulting in little competition between bucks for breeding. This means it is possible that nearly every buck is allowed to breed, not necessarily the dominant, most vigorous bucks as nature intended. It is important to realize that genetic diversity is not a problem for most deer populations. One thing is certain, the genetics of a herd cannot be addressed until the nutritional level of the herd is high and the age structure is balanced. Only after this is accomplished (through habitat management and appropriate harvest levels), is the herd able to show its genetic potential.


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## H2OFowl'er (Oct 26, 2001)

I havent been typing much here lately, because I to just became so upset with stating facts and listing websites, etc to just have people either "not believe it" or just plain argue facts. etc etc. I am pro QDM, and feel it would be very beneficial to the herd in Michigan. 

Oct 1 stated:




> What I still need to know from a QDM rep. is what constitutes a quality deer


I am no expert, but this is what I think. QDM is not about "a" quality deer, but rather "quality deer" plural. Meaning they are concerned with the quality of the herd. Put simply a healthy herd would be the way mother nature intended it to be. Sex ratio 1:1, age structure spread out, which would lead to a "healthy deer". The way things stand now, we have way to many does. Many of these does do not get bred until late in the year and therefore start behind the power curve. This leads to low birth weights which leads to an unhealthy deer. This year I seen many fawns with spots on their backs well into November, these deer are more likely not to survive the winter. If we can get the buck to doe ratio closer to 1:1, does would get bred in a timely manner, and would reduce the amount of deer that are too weak to last the winter. By passing young bucks, and taking does (in areas that need this) the ratio not only becomes closer to 1:1, but the age structure in the bucks would be closer to how Mother Nature intended. Why is this important? Same reason that many other animals have dominant and subordinate breeders. This allows the stronger, deer to breed the does which will lead to healthier fawns, which leads to healthier deer so on and so forth. A big hang up with everyone is the "Bigger bucks and Bigger antlers" This is not what QDM is about. It is a by product of what QDM is about. By following simple management practices, that create a healthier herd, it is impossible to not see more bigger bucks. 

Im going to have to stick up for Jamie here as he has brought alot of good information to this sight, and so many people have just degraded anything that has been posted here. The biggest problem I see here is many people do not think the herd is unhealthy, and everything is hunky dory. Until people agree that the health of the herd is not good, people will not want to see change. Change is the most difficult thing to do.




> Jamie I don't hit this forum much so maybe you have answered these questions before, But it seems like you like to type so here I go
> 1. How long have you been involved in QDM
> 2. How long have you been hunting Whitetails in Michigan
> 3. How many Bucks have you killed that meet QDM's Standards, (2 1/2 plus years).
> ...


I know I wasnt asked these questions, but feel as if to be credible, people should know my background.

1. I am not a member of QDMA, but strongly support QDM and probably will become a member here shortly. We have been practicing QDM around 5-7 years now.

2. I have been hunting whitetails in the same location for over 17 years now.

3. I have killed 3 bucks in my time. One of them bucks would meet QDM standards. A nice 3.5 year old eight point. The other two were 2.5 year old deer.

4. No I have never shot a spike or a fork.

The area we hunt has very many deer. We have been culling the does and letting the young bucks pass. The does we take are usually younger deer. I spent many a seasons when I would see 100 plus deer and see one, sometimes no bucks. I still loved it, I just loved being outside. Since we started letting the little ones pass (and trying to get the neighbors to do the same, which many are) I have seen many more bucks. Until this last year I never seen a mature buck chase does around a bean field. Two falls ago while pheasant/bow hunting I saw 8 different bucks. This season I did not see as many bucks, but also did not spend, as much time is the woods. In the past 3 years we have harvested 4 bucks. Each of these bucks are trophies. Before we started practicing QDM there was one trophy shot, that is in 17 years...

All I am trying to say is this stuff works. If everyone on this website would start QDM this fall, it would not affect my hunting one bit. So why do I push QDM? Because it works, it is so exciting to be sitting in the woods and see two bucks spar with each other. It is so exciting to see a large racked deer walk through the woods. It is so exciting to watch a mature buck chase does through a bean field for 2 hours non-stop. It is so exciting to see 8 different bucks in a single weekend. 

If this does not sound like a quality hunt, then QDM is not for you. There are people out there that could care less if they see big bucks, or multiple bucks, or rut activity. But one thing they should not dismiss is the health of the deer herd....


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

BEAGLEMAN,

you can debate opinions until each party is blue in the face, you cannot debate fact and documented research.

i take that back, some people try.


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## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

To "DFR" and "Benelli" :

CHEER and most sincere congratulations to both of you : finally females management shows up !

MATERNAL EFFECTS : 

- Date of oestrus (and date of birth of fawn(s), as a rule, the
earlier the better).
- Quality pregnancy (weight of fawns at birth).
- Quality of suckling (no need to develop).
- Quality of life : access to the best foods and shelters, better 
physical condition prior winter.
- Quality of fawns protection against predators.
- Lessons fawns will benefit all along their life.
- EQUAL genetic participation than male to antler potential.

From J. OZOGA I quote : " White-tailed fawns have the inherent hability to grow rapidly and assume adults habits at a young age provided they live in a favorable habitat and have good nutrition. But even under optimal conditions, the new-born fawn's survival prospects hinge heavily on proper maternal care. Because a doe's fawn-rearing skills improve with experience, older mothers are typically more successful than younger ones, especially when deer and predators are abundant."

No doubt does management is at least as important than that of males !!!

From these obvious, logical, common sense data, confirmed by scientific research (...), it becomes possible to work out some basic rules dealing with females management.

- The stronger females of EACH class of age should be 
protected (this is fairly well feasible if one study carefully 
whole body morphology prior any urge to just go out to kill).
- Except senescent, the older does too (as matriarch they lead 
their dependents AND generally a larger group to whom
they are globally most useful).

TO KILL the biggest of any group of "antlerless" is always a 
crime against Nature : it is an adult female with dependents
who has learned and known how to best adapt to her
environment : this knowledge is certainly worth being
passed on ! 

- VERY OLD females WITHOUT dependent fawns, are 
senescent, LOOK very old, and are most likely useless to the
herd ... but yet stay harmful to the habitat ....
When I write "LOOK" I mean it is generally as obvious as to 
differentiate young from old women ... But, of course, we
generally have more experience and attention towards 
women than towards deer...
After all, veterinarians do not need to look at the teeth of a
dog, cow, or horse, to give a fairly good estimate of age !!!

- In front of any weak doe followed by a fawn, most likely
weak too, the fawn should be shot first. If this first shot is 
successful AND the second one reasonable, the doe should
be shot after the fawn. Male or female fawn does not 
make any difference, (Weak adults and fawns will stay weak 
all along their life). 
- Yearling does, WITHOUT a fawn (most likely weak ones from
what I learned about your deer), should be favored preys,
but not too many of them ... so as to not interfere with the
minimum needed to guarantee a normal renewal of the 
population, year after year, from the base of the "pyramid"
of ages, especially if the density is below deer optimal 
carrying capacity (I mean a density at which the HERD is 
globally in the best physical condition) . 

I wish I have been useful to "DFR" and "Benelli". 

Jack.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

A doe should be harvested for several reasons to maintain the buck to doe ratio is the obvious one. But which does do you harvest? Harvest the old does that are past there best fawn bearing years. Leaving the mature 3 to 5 year does for breeding.

just like i would like to see a 3.5 year old average for bucks, i would like to see the same for the does in the herd. an overall mature herd of deer.


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## DFR (Sep 8, 2000)

Jamie- I just find it rather odd that you as an admitted QDM'er state that its not about the antlers, but until now and not until prodded do you come up with any information on what does to shoot. Next question. Is your statement on which does to shoot your opinion or that of QDM?


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## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

To "DFR" :

I noticed you asked a good question, but, as too many others, for one reason or another, you abstained to reply to answers you got, POLITELY and OBJECTIVELY, sent back to you ...
Do you think this is an honest and fair behaviour ???

Should Quality Deer Management, over ALL the planet, depends only upon questions whose rational answers are ignored, it is doomed to fail. 
Deer and our followers, including yours, will have to pay the price for our mismanagement.

For any selfish reason, perhaps you do not mind about this, in which case I deeply regret to have spent so much time to try to answer what I felt to be a sincere post from you about females management.

I deeply wish it will not be the same for "Benelli".

Jack.


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## DFR (Sep 8, 2000)

Belbriette- please do not misunderstand me. I only ask the questions as I believe that we have a core group of people that are wolves in sheeps clothing. They are proponents of a cause (QDM) and are trying to argue that they are for a "Quality Herd" when in fact they are only after large antllers. I know they will emphatically dispute me on that fact but it is my belief. As for myself, people that know me know that I am equally at home in my blind with a gun or a camera. I believe that like C&R fishing, capturing that quality buck on film is just as big a trophy as a mount hanging on the wall. I have seen three trophies killed in the last two years out of my hunting camp. All three I passed on at my stand. My wife took one of them and my 88 year old father took the other two. Two of the deer were spikes and one was a fork. I dare anyone to dispute as to whether or not these were trophies.
Whenever a person can spend time hunting with family it is quality time and a quality hunt.

My 2 cents


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## H2OFowl'er (Oct 26, 2001)

DFR wrote:


> After reading all the posts pro and con to QDM, I have one question. If the QDM'rs insist it's not about the antlers, why do they all seem to want older bucks?


I as well as others have tried to explain the biological reasons behind this, show you examples as well as quote biologist and reports. And the best thing you can come up with is:



> I only ask the questions as I believe that we have a core group of people that are wolves in sheeps clothing. They are proponents of a cause (QDM) and are trying to argue that they are for a "Quality Herd" when in fact they are only after large antllers.


I feel if people go through the trouble of trying to answer your question, then you should have more respect for a fellow hunter to basically call them a liar?


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

DFR,

when you come into the middle of a debate, it's easy to pass judgement.

feel free to browse through my 500+ posts and see if you come to the same conclusion.

good reading to you.


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

Thank you Jack

I personally have not seen a doe with fawns that I felt were in poor health that have warranted harvesting the both of them. Also, this practice may be difficult (in MI) based on the tags available to a hunter. But I will keep your suggestion in mind regarding harvesting the fawn first if I observe this to be case in the future.

Like I indicated before, I usually target the 1.5 year old doe that does not have any fawns, as they are easy to pick out when they travel with their family groups. On the other hand, I have taken solo doe without fawns, one of which was aged by DNR at 9.5 years old! I could actually notice her grey muzzle, so I knew she was old and perhaps past her breeding prime. I guess this is the way I have practiced my doe harvest to maintain the pyramid of ages that you referenced in balance. 

I have not seen an "official" reference from QDMA on which doe(s) should be harvested, but I know here in Michigan there are many contests during deer season for the biggest antlered deer, and the biggest bodied doe. I think many are of the mindset to take the biggest doe that they see, which, as you put it is a crime against nature. If QDMA does not have any suggested practices on doe harvest, perhaps they should.

Thanks again for you input Jack.


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

I believe,

And this is only my opinion...

That doe management is not an issue, because we have an abundance of doe.

Too many young ones, too many old ones...

It would take lots of arrows to trim the doe herd down to its normal pyramid distribution in relation to habitat.

9.5 year old doe!! Wow...I have heard of a few that old shot every now and then...

Seriously though....whens the last time you heard about a 9.5 year old buck shot?

7 year old?

5?

There seems to be an absence or a void of old "beyond prime" males. Wouldnt you guys agree? 

Doe herd age distribution is fine...because we have too many overall.

We knock our present doe herd # down to equal our present buck herd #, I'll be happy to talk quality doe management.

Right now, I just dont think its an issue.

But like I said...just my opinion.

For what it's worth,

Hunt


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## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

To Huntnut :

My post about does was just a way to attract attention to their most important role within the herd.
I understood MI includes widely different "local" herd situations depending on climate and habitat, density wise : this is why I previously "preached" so many times in favor of an adapted "micro-management".
Of course the "message" I tried to pass on refers to areas where over-abundance does not prevail.
Hence I totally agree with what you said in the opposite situations : Density well below maximum biological carrying capacity, adequate sex-ratio and good male structure of population by classes of age are priority goals (Except heaviest doe contest candidates, as does do not wear antler... the females population structure is generally not a problem !) 
Once these priority goals are reached, a good females management becomes an important goal of QDM, everywhere. 

In all cases :
- I think the "heaviest doe contest" is a shame : how many heavy does are shot to name a "winner" ?
- I feel much the same about buck contest : except, perhaps, the very FIRST buck shot by a new hunter, only "trophies" of bucks who could rightly be "harvested" in a QDM perspective - namely, clearly abnormal antler at any age, and antler at, or close to apogee - should deserve to appear in any contest.

Jack.


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Huntnut is right on track regarding the abundance of does in many parts of the state, and the even random harvest distribution throughout the various age classes of does.

The QDMA position is very specific that harvesting an adequate number of adult does is the most critical aspect of the doe harvest. Now if you want to become sophisticated in your doe harvest, the QDMA information and reference material you need are the QDMA books, such as: Quality Whitetails by Karl Miller and R. Larry Marchinston; Producing Quality Whitetails by Al Brothers and Murphy E. Ray, Jr., and A Practical Guide to Producing and Harvesting White-tailed Deer by Dr. James C. Kroll.

Hint: Keeping accurate records, including age, of all deer harvested is critical. 

I'm glad to see the interest in determining what deer to harvest. I'd also ask you not to get discouraged if many hunters don't appear to be interested in discussing what age classes of does to harvest, as we apparently haven't gotten beyond the current buck harvest, which disproportionately concentrates on the 1 1/2 year olds.

Below is the portion of the 2001 analytical report of the DMU 118 QDM demonstration, regarding the doe harvest. The entire report can be viewed at http://members.tripod.com/~mmbqdm/articles/2001DMU118biodata_analysis.htm

In the harvested adult doe average age column the 3.15 number is where you want to be. This column is important. It will tell you if does are being harvested and more importantly to what degree. The number should be between 2.5 and 4.5 (prime age does) with the lower number being preferred for DMU 118. The 3.15 average age of the harvested doe indicates you are turning over the doe herd and reaping benefits if you have a high-grade deer management program. This 3.15 number means you are passing on good genetics rapidly, but still staying within the prime age, which equals high fawn productivity. Going much below 2.5 will improve the buck to doe ratio but will lower the fawn productivity. The importance of the information this column gives can not be overemphasized. How many does should I shoot? Keep records and you will know.


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

Hunt,

Thanks for your input and I respect your opinions. I do agree with you that the age structure of the bucks should be the primary focus these days, but there are areas that have had significant reductions of the doe herd to the point where it is claimed none are left. Be this real or perceived within the local hunting communities, maybe doe management practices should be kept in mind in these areas. 

The oldest buck I know of that has been definitively aged in my hunting area was a 5.5 y.o. my brother took around 1980. Nice 12 pt and a funny story behind it I may share sometime. We have seen and harvested some up there that may have been close or better in age, but not aged officially. Many 3.5s have been taken though, but the majority of deer seen are 1.5 to 2.5. 

Boyd, I have not had a chance to reference and digest all the "official" QDMA information yet. I knew of the stated goal to harvest an "adequate number of adult doe", but in my mind harvesting a healthy doe with fawns just is not right. I do know that orphaned fawns may be adopted within a family group such that they can learn winter survival traits, but with an overpopulation of doe, they may be shunned and left to fend for themselves. Perhaps I need to develop a bit more of a thick skin in that regard, but like Hunt said, in many areas it really isnt much of an issue right now. Thanks for the reference to 2.5 to 4.5 you provided, that gives me a starting point to work from. 

Thanks again for your thoughts and advice.


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## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

I'm Back,
Been out of town for a while and have had some catching up to do. Don't want you to feel I preformed a hit and run.
I want to thank all for the informative answers to my questions. There's been a lot of sense made out of your comments. I'll still be reading, and even once in a while ask another question. 
Boss says its time to get back to work. I'll sneak back when he's gone.


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