# CWAC and seasons



## smiley1544 (Oct 18, 2002)

I personally like the zone 3 recommendation, it's basically the same as last year. 


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

smiley1544 said:


> I personally like the zone 3 recommendation, it's basically the same as last year.


No, what it has done is take away the best two days of our hunting season over here and put it in December. Thanks guys.........Yes, that's sarcastic.


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## Sander vitreus 01 (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks good...if u live in SW Michigan why wouldn't you buy an out of state license in the mis flyway anyway? The jan split was a waste by most accounts...id drive 3 hours south rather than 7 in january to kill birds. Good job cwac at making a great MI season if all goes as...

_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors_


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

Funny how all the guys that like these zn 3 dates are either from the bay or Shi. Just more proof they need to be moved to zn 2 or add a 4th zone. John, I really hope that you are sincere in your efforts to do something about us over here that seem to be bent over more than we're standing upright.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

Huntermax-4 said:


> Funny how all the guys that like these zn 3 dates are either from the bay or Shi. Just more proof they need to be moved to zn 2 or add a 4th zone. John, I really hope that you are sincere in your efforts to do something about us over here that seem to be bent over more than we're standing upright.


Don't worry Boone....Didn't you know? All we have to do is buy an out of state license and drive south to hunt now.


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## lab1 (Aug 31, 2004)

BigR said:


> yes it was discussed, proposed by goosemanrdk and knowone was in support of it (it wasn't 10 days either, it was like 5-7 somewhere in there)...Sag Bay and Harsens really shot it down.


Thanks for the reply back.


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## birdshooter (Jan 7, 2006)

I will say it here too someone got payed by big intrest group from the bay


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## The Doob (Mar 4, 2007)

I want to second the THANK YOU to all the CWAC members who have really tried to take input from all the ranters and ravers in the waterfowl community. I am happy that we are having a 60 day season with six ducks in the bag. I will hunt at every opportunity possible and be thankful I was born in Michigan. If someday the bay gets moved into zone 2 - this is my one wish - then the season can be adjusted to help the SE and SW guys have more/better opporunities.

Thanks Kid for the updates - drove by the meeting place on my way to the Waterfowl festival and it looked like it was well attended


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Wow...funny how things get spun. Well to clear the air a bit, I was in the audience, along with BigR and many others.

regarding the zone 3 dates that were selected:

1) it was not unanimous. In fact, it got the minimum number of votes to pass...13. 

2) it was the second proposal considered, and the dates were DIRECTLY from the DNR's waterfowl workgroup...not from anyone or any group there Saturday.

3) there was a lot of discussion of compromise away from the recent two day split around Jan 1st. Why? Because of the DNR's emphasis on participation. they made that very clear to the group at the start of the meeting. And no matter how much those of you who like that two day "smackdown" as it was called at the meeting, the facts are a minority of hunters take advantage of it...big water or inland areas. This was the DNR's data, not mine or any of the CWAC members. So this was a SMALL step towards moving into a more creative split. Maybe next time it gets taken further, and they actually give consideration to an earlier loaded split.

4) contrary to what has been said, it was not largely a "Saginaw Bay, Shiawassee River, or Harsens" Decision. In fact, sitting next to me in the audience was a guy from central Michigan area who said he agreed with it. He said he may actually find some birds on Dec 10th. A guide from Lake Erie (who shall remain anonymous) was right there by me too, and he LOVES the Dec 10th and 11th idea! He said although he's been mostly alone out on Erie on the Jan split,, which in some ways is nice, for his business, he has a hard time getting hunters to come on Jan 1st. So he'd rather see the Dec split (i.e. more participation and more business for him). He was confident they'll shoot as many OR MORE birds on Dec 10 and 11.

5) one of your SW Michigan reps (who frequents this board) did suggest the group consider a more front-loaded split. However a couple things regarding that...because of the DNR's emphasis on participation, they were not going to consider an October split of any kind. That was completely off the table. That left November, and it was brought up about gun deer season, and the possibility of a split in that area. As you could expect, the majority of the CWAC members felt that we did not want to lose any time in November in trade for December because that again would decrease OVERALL participation. May gain some in SW Michigan, but not OVERALL...again, big picture guys, not just your corner of the world. But this wasn't the bay guys, or the Shiawassee guys, or the Harsens guys...it was very clearly MOST of the members. But your rep tried! 

6) moving the Jan weekend up into December is in line with the DNR's goal to increase participation. Fact is based on the DNR's data, more Zone 3 hunters are likely to utilize the Dec 10th and 11th split than the Jan split. That's not to say the kill will be as high...but participation.

So before you all fly off the handle, try to look at this more objectively based on the main goal that the DNR placed on the group at the start of the meeting....increasing participation. I for one give the CWAC members credit for a lot of fairly lively, and educated, discussion about all of the season dates. With few exceptions, that was one of the most efficient CWAC meetings I have attended.


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## duckbuster2 (Aug 14, 2008)

I think the seasons are great!!! go back to 30 day seasons and 3 ducks or the point system then everyone can complain.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

just ducky said:


> Wow...funny how things get spun. Well to clear the air a bit, I was in the audience, along with BigR and many others.
> 
> regarding the zone 3 dates that were selected:
> 
> ...


Personally, I think the dnr fell off of their rocker if they truly believe that have an early split in october will lower participation. Two openers early in the season should increase it, not lower it because my bet is hunters would be more sucessful
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Good Morning Boys-

this is likely to ge a hot one today, so let's try and remember our lessons in civility before firing off posts. (and I won't be on top of this)


second, what I'm about to present is informational only - as I said in the other thread , I'm really indifferent PERSONALLY to this season proposal other than to say they got the start dates right for all zones.

and I don't mind telling you as I sit here in Northern lower that my dad thinks "it sucks" for zone 2! he wants to start later!! 


~~~~~~~~

SW unhappy with season dates - I'll never tell you how to feel, but I must admit I'm a bit confused by statements like "steps back...worst ever... "

in the other thread, there was support from SW members here for Roberts prop as follows;

10/8 - 10/16 10/22 - 12/11

many comments thought that "good" and steps in the right direction with a caveat that going to 12/18 would be near ideal for them.

others in SW like the "ferris" plan better of 10/8 - 10/9 then 10/22-12/18

jist being; going to 12/11 is pretty good and 12/18 fantastic

now get your midwest maps out and let's look at michigan in the context of all the others states around us (2010 season dates)

INDIANA: 10/16 - 12/14
N. ILLINOIS: 10/16 - 12/14
S. WISCONSIN: 10/2 october split, 10/16-12/5
N. WISCONSIN: 9/25 - 11/23
N. OHIO: 10/16 - 11/14, 11/20 - 12/19
S. OHIO: 10/16-10/31, 12/11 - jan/23

so from a higher level perspective, how do you sell (to the NRC/feds) that michigan should start any later and end any later? how does it make sense to them that the guy in Oceana, ingham,Howard city should end his waterfowling season the same day as the flatlander half way down the state of OHIO? or the guy in Wabash Indiana?!!


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

I think all three zones got screwed.


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## 7Wings (Jul 24, 2011)

I appreciate JustDucky's comments. It is impossible to keep everyone happy....and the SW MI crew is in the minority. I have to admit that the January hunts have consistently been my favorite. The birds are back to natural patterns. Lots of quality shooting.....and I have time off without family obligations (ie thanksgiving and Christmas holidays). I will have to put everyone in my family on notice. No Christmas party on the weekend of the 10th. 

Finally.... I like the idea of a 4th zone....we should at least try it out.

_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

Branta said:


> Good Morning Boys-
> 
> this is likely to ge a hot one today, so let's try and remember our lessons in civility before firing off posts. (and I won't be on top of this)
> 
> ...


 

IMO it is a step back from what we have had in recent years. One of the reasons I didn't mind the 
10/8 - 10/16 10/22 - 12/11 dates was because should this be the season I would take the last week off and hunt every day. 

I just want to be clear on one thing. I am NOT blaming anyone for this decision. It is what it is, but just one year it would be nice if they considered one of the most hunted county in the state.


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## cornfieldbill (Jun 6, 2009)

smiley1544 said:


> I personally like the zone 3 recommendation, it's basically the same as last year.
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


AT 71 I am just dam glad to be able to go LMAO:evilsmile


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## Boatown (Nov 27, 2004)

I was told by my local CO that the waterfowl seasons were set by the federal wildlife assoc. they set all bag limits around the USA and the local dnr has some input but the DNR does not make the rules for this season.


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> Wow...funny how things get spun. Well to clear the air a bit, I was in the audience, along with BigR and many others.
> 
> regarding the zone 3 dates that were selected:
> 
> ...


The DNR and the Lake Erie Guide are sorely mistaken if they believe this split is going to remedy their "participation issue's"...



Edit: Upon further review, I'm going to amplify my statement. By participation, I'm assuming the DNR and the Erie Guide are equating that to "revenue"??? If so,, is that 2 days really gonna make or break either of 'em?


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## Chemicoducker (Aug 7, 2011)

The zone 3 vote was not unanimous. It went 13 yes and 4 no. I voted no because hunters in my area wanted the split late like it has been the last several years. We were outvoted, but we have next year.


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## Chemicoducker (Aug 7, 2011)

Lucky Dog said:


> I think all three zones got screwed.


Why do you think all three zones got screwed? What would your proposals be to remedy the situation and make it better for next year? I, along with other members of CWAC, will take your thoughts and ideas and carry them forward to our meeting in March. In fact you can attend the meeting and make comment to better our process. We are always looking for as much input as we can get from the waterfowlers of this great state.

Fire away, we are listening!


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

Boatown said:


> I was told by my local CO that the waterfowl seasons were set by the federal wildlife assoc. they set all bag limits around the USA and the local dnr has some input but the DNR does not make the rules for this season.


The feds set the perameters for which seasons can be set, and bag limits, but the individual states set the actual dates within the feds guidelines. 

For exaplme I think the feds say a season can be set from mid sept-sometime in january... We can set our 60 days within that time. 

Also the mississippi flyway allows for the taking of two hen mallards, but michigan restricts us to only one..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Personally, I think the dnr fell off of their rocker if they truly believe that have an early split in october will lower participation. Two openers early in the season should increase it, not lower it because my bet is hunters would be more sucessful
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ferris - it's a numbers game, pure and simple. The figures the DNR has, which is from their annual surveys (which Barb admits got way behind in tabulation, but they are now caught up with the last three years of surveys), and from the managed area useage counts. Both show by far that more people waterfowl hunt throughout October, and it slowly fades as we move into November, and obviously into December. In other words, yes, they're catering to the fair-weather, "tennis shoe" hunter in the crowd. And yes, it is dollars and cents. Look at it from the DNR's perspective, and you have to know a little about their budget, which is almost exclusively fee based versus general fund (i.e. taxes)...their survival depends on revenue. 

And if you don't believe revenue is a HUGE issue, all you had to do is listen to Law Enforcement supervisor Dave Shaw tell CWAC about their staffing problems. There are some areas in his region where they just won't be present. I believe he said he's got 10 or 11 counties, and they have just a handful of CO's anymore. Versus double-digit staffing levels a decade ago. 

So yeah, they are prioritizing the maximization of "participation, which yes, equates to revenue. Like it or not...that's the fact. If anyone doesn't get that, then you're simply an ostrich with your head in the sand.


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## earlfriend (Oct 21, 2010)

Personally, I would like to see more talk about having a break (even if only for the first weekend) during deer season for two reasons:

1. I'm extremely torn between the two because I love waterfowl hunting 1359875 times more than deer hunting, but I always want to bag a deer because of the amount of food it provides my family/friends. I'm sure that this has a huge effect on participation numbers.

2. I'm sure most of us have had an undesirable experience running into deer hunters on public land while we're all camo'd up blasting away at ducks. We spook the deer and they spook the ducks, plain and simple. I've been in both situations and wished that I didn't have to deal with it.

Either way I plan on getting my fill of hunting this fall and I can't wait to get up at 4 a.m. on opening day!


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## lewy149 (Apr 19, 2007)

What ever happened to that trust money from oil and timber?? Did that get robbed for roads and airports like our awesome government wanted. Id support giving it to Co's before the suggested idea. I'm baffled they could just sit on that much money and have not wasted it. But looks like someone will blow it for sportsman. Why not use that money to say sink Wells in flooding to pump water in em or plant feed? I honestly don't know much about the money or how it can be used. So if some could enlighten me that would be great. Just another avenue to talk about.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Just out of curiousity dan, if this indeed passes, do you think they would drain srsga at the end of the 58 days or try to hold off till the 10th? I know that's pushing it with ice up, but woods and other areas should still have open water should we get some good wind to keep the river moving..
> 
> Or perhaps a judgement call at the end of the 58 days
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


flooding would stay. unless we have 10" of ice by then.


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> ...So yeah, they are prioritizing the maximization of "participation, which yes, equates to revenue. Like it or not...that's the fact. If anyone doesn't get that, then you're simply an ostrich with your head in the sand.


Sooo, with that said. Wouldn't starting the season sooner make more sense, to maximize hunter participation?? Revenue wise, that 2 day late split doesn't do a thing for the DNR.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

William H Bonney said:


> Sooo, with that said. Wouldn't starting the season sooner make more sense, to maximize hunter participation?? Revenue wise, that 2 day late split doesn't do a thing for the DNR.


Are you talking about the regular duck season? It probably would, but I think the DNR is trying to balance everything out...some early hunting, some later hunting.

Let's all face it, if we ever go back to a 30 day season, it will be mainly in October.


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

just ducky said:


> Ferris - it's a numbers game, pure and simple. The figures the DNR has, which is from their annual surveys (which Barb admits got way behind in tabulation, but they are now caught up with the last three years of surveys), and from the managed area useage counts. Both show by far that more people waterfowl hunt throughout October, and it slowly fades as we move into November, and obviously into December. In other words, yes, they're catering to the fair-weather, "tennis shoe" hunter in the crowd. And yes, it is dollars and cents. Look at it from the DNR's perspective, and you have to know a little about their budget, which is almost exclusively fee based versus general fund (i.e. taxes)...their survival depends on revenue.
> 
> And if you don't believe revenue is a HUGE issue, all you had to do is listen to Law Enforcement supervisor Dave Shaw tell CWAC about their staffing problems. There are some areas in his region where they just won't be present. I believe he said he's got 10 or 11 counties, and they have just a handful of CO's anymore. Versus double-digit staffing levels a decade ago.
> 
> So yeah, they are prioritizing the maximization of "participation, which yes, equates to revenue. Like it or not...that's the fact. If anyone doesn't get that, then you're simply an ostrich with your head in the sand.


 

I guess the problem I have with this JD is whether the season opens on Oct. 1 or Oct 21 the same "tennis shoe" hunters are going to buy their waterfowl license......so how are they losing revenue? A lot of "these guys will go out 2 or 3 days a year. Do you think it matters to them whether they go out Oct 1 and 2 or Oct 21 and 22? I strongly believe that license sales would not be affected as long as the opener was sometime in Oct. Thoughts?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

just ducky said:


> Let's all face it, if we ever go back to a 30 day season, it will be mainly in October.


z3 30 day season would be oct xx to november 15 reopen friday of thanksgiving for the weekend.

so i'm splitting hairs, but your statement would be false.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

Branta said:


> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> SW unhappy with season dates - I'll never tell you how to feel, but I must admit I'm a bit confused by statements like "steps back...worst ever... "
> 
> ...



Number one, most splits in the states that you mentioned were either in the front half or the middle of the season......not the end. The change CWAC voted on does absolutely nothing for us over here....period. That vote was to help everyone but us. I don't care how you spin it.


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## The Doob (Mar 4, 2007)

J.D. - thanks for sharing - sounds like participation trumps all other considerations and I have a hard time arguing with that.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> z3 30 day season would be oct xx to november 15 reopen friday of thanksgiving for the weekend.
> 
> so i'm splitting hairs, but your statement would be false.


well....maybe. Let's just assume we go to a 30, and let's assume the DNR wishes to simplify everyone's life. Maybe the UP would go for Sept 24th through Oct 24th. Or maybe Oct 1st through October 30th. But hearing all of the discussion yesterday, I couldn't see the lower, either zone 2 or 3, going for dates of Oct 15th through Nov 14th. I just heard way too many arguments for early birds...brown ducks so to speak. I'd guess an Oct 1 opener through October 30th? Or Oct 8th through Nov 6th? Basically all October. But I get ya.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

The Doob said:


> J.D. - thanks for sharing - sounds like participation trumps all other considerations and I have a hard time arguing with that.


yeah it clearly is. And what really hit home for me was when Russ Mason, Chief of the Wildlife Division, stood in front of everyone and talked about how we've lost 50k small game hunters and how tragic that is. He said I know a lot of you love deer and turkeys, and so do we, but "we're gonna focus and put our efforts into small game, including waterfowl" because "deer and turkey don't need our help...deer and turkey take care of themselves!" I thought that was pretty damn clear that he's committed to helping our cause.


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## UKLABMAN (Dec 6, 2003)

In So.mi if we don't have way more ducks 12-1 to 11 than Nov 1-7 I'll eat my duck call!. Thought the idea of change was to get us that time. South Central Mi. I felt it was worth giving up the Jan 2 days---not this way. Was really looking forward to being open entire early portion of Dec.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

UKLABMAN said:


> In So.mi if we don't have way more ducks 12-1 to 11 than Nov 1-7 I'll eat my duck call!. Thought the idea of change was to get us that time. South Central Mi. I felt it was worth giving up the Jan 2 days---not this way. Was really looking forward to being open entire early portion of Dec.


Agree completely.

Didn't you know? That doesn't go along with the "participation" numbers they wanted to achieve for east side hunters.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

UKLABMAN said:


> In So.mi if we don't have way more ducks 12-1 to 11 than Nov 1-7 I'll eat my duck call!. Thought the idea of change was to get us that time. South Central Mi. I felt it was worth giving up the Jan 2 days---not this way. Was really looking forward to being open entire early portion of Dec.


Show your data to the powers that be...that's all I can say. I'm sure your believe your observations to be correct. But he DNR data shared on Saturday clearly shows the pattern of movement in the SLP...builds to a high in late October or early November, then starts to decline. Oh but wait, I forgot...that data was artificially skewed by the DNR because everyone knows there is a conspiracy to stick it to SW Michigan. Got it now.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

field-n-feathers said:


> Agree completely.
> 
> Didn't you know? That doesn't go along with the "participation" numbers they wanted to achieve for east side hunters.


Done wasting keystrokes on you guys.

GoosemanRDK...I'll be praying for you buddy. No wonder you want to resign from CWAC having to represent these dudes


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## birdshooter (Jan 7, 2006)

just ducky said:


> Show your data to the powers that be...that's all I can say. I'm sure your believe your observations to be correct. But he DNR data shared on Saturday clearly shows the pattern of movement in the SLP...builds to a high in late October or early November, then starts to decline. Oh but wait, I forgot...that data was artificially skewed by the DNR because everyone knows there is a conspiracy to stick it to SW Michigan. Got it now.


 
What data did they show ? from managed areas ,from refuge, few surveys they send out to random hunters? this really dosnt represent the rest of zone 3 . plenty of other state and private land that probably dosnt get counted .


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

birdshooter said:


> What data did they show ? from managed areas ,from refuge, few surveys they send out to random hunters? this really dosnt represent the rest of zone 3 . plenty of other state and private land that probably dosnt get counted .


No one would disagree that they are not accurately surveying all of the SLP. It's a scientific sampling based on all of things you said and then some. Just like any surveys or bird movement data is. How else would they survey the entire SLP? Do you think the USFW staff walk every mile of every state in the prairie pothole region to come up with the spring brood counts or pond surveys that the season frameworks are based on? they do fly overs, and they use science to project out where we're at. A lot of the data they provided Saturday, including population ESTIMATES for all of the major duck species are the same. Welcome to the world of fish and wildlife data.

It's the best our experts have. Is it 100% accurate? No one every said it was.


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## UKLABMAN (Dec 6, 2003)

May easily be more total ducks in SLM early Nov than Dec counting great lakes divers.. accessable to those committed to that portion of our sport living generally close to them. We have a very unique state and simply drive 1 hr inland & it's a whole different ballgame.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> Ha, you a have never come close to "pissing" me off. Have I been frustrated/upset, yes, pissed off- not even close.:evil:


Yeah I was joking. You and I have disagreed once or twice before, and we will again. Life is full of disagreements and disappointments. But I can leave it at the computer keyboard


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> Yeah I was joking. You and I have disagreed once or twice before, and we will again.


Spartan's or Wolverine's?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

birdshooter said:


> I was in line one day at bait store few yrs back , the retailer asked the guy in front of me if he hunted migratory birds last yr and what his take was the guy replied that he only hunted hand full of times and he took x amount of birds so i just figured weekend warrior or tennis shoe hunter. Out in the parking lot i over heard the guy tell his buddy that he made up a number to just hurry up the process not sure how that data helps anything .


they ask you those questions when you buy a duck stamp, and I believe those are federal question, not state gathered. Yeah people can lie or answer incorrectly. But they can do that if you mailed each person one as well. No way to prevent that.


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## Fall Flight Punisher (Aug 14, 2008)

goosemanrdk said:


> Spartan's or Wolverine's?


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

hunting man said:


> Moving the 2 day late duck season up 3 weeks will have more people hunting it.
> 
> This is a compromise and we are going in the right direction. Next year could be even better.


How is this a compromise?!

Dedicating 2 days out of 60 for the hardcore hunters, layout hunters, and SW Michigan- that is a compromise. 

If this your idea of "going in the right direction" than you really don't understand all that waterfowling in Michigan has to offer.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

hunting man said:


> With only 50,000+ waterfowlers would it be possible the DNR send them all a survey? Could even issue one with the license purchase.


Actually Barb Avers mentioned at CWAC that they are looking at some other survey methods, so who knows. Problem is surveys are like voting...you're lucky if you get 20% or 30% to participate.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> Spartan's or Wolverine's?


I have a T-shirt..."I brake for everything except a wolverine" :evilsmile 

MSU season ticket holder here...which often seriously conflicts with my hunting


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Fall Flight Punisher said:


>


I favor the old block "S" myself.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> *I have a T-shirt..."I brake for everything except a wolverine"* :evilsmile
> 
> MSU season ticket holder here...which often seriously conflicts with my hunting


Well, there ya. We disagree again!!!

I will have to remember to NEVER, EVER step in front of your moving vehicle!!!:yikes:

GO BLUE!!!!!!!!!


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## Chemicoducker (Aug 7, 2011)

Fall Flight Punisher said:


>


 *Go Green!!!!!!!!*


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> Well, there ya. We disagree again!!!
> 
> I will have to remember to NEVER, EVER step in front of your moving vehicle!!!:yikes:
> 
> GO BLUE!!!!!!!!!


Well this year you may actually have a chance now that the Rich Rod experiment is over.  Talk about disasters! I think we will agree on one thing...Denard is one hell of a QB! the guy is like greased lightning. Gonna be a blast watching him from the stands on Oct 15th. That is until he's tasting spartan stadium grass :lol: 

Okay, okay...I've been on and off this damn computer for a good share of the day. Now off to watch the Ice Road Truckers lose their cool instead of us duck hunters! :evilsmile


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

there is alot of input the DNR & FEDS get.... the passsion from this site is outstanding... I think that this site provides an important voice and CWAC has listened and provided a good / great season outline.... even for those in SW MI.... as we sit here in early August we have no clue to what Oct and Nov have in store for us in MI... for all those "Hardcore" hunters the dates in Michigan really have nor bearing on our season.... because this is not the only place we hunt... for those that plan vacations around the dates Michigan sets.... I wish I could look into the future and help... we have all had trips that went south becaue the weather / etc didn't work out as palnned...


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## T.J. (Mar 1, 2009)

zone 1 closing a week in the middle of prime freaking time. way to shut her down at its peak. can u say blue balls?:chillin:


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## mintgreenwalleyemachine (Jan 18, 2005)

I just wish they would put a 12day gap instead of 5 days! It would help the birds settle down! Every weekend Lsc and Erie get pounded and the longer gap allows time for the divers to return to the us side. Also allows birds to congregate on public lands! From what I have seen in the last few years there has been plenty of participation in the Jan split!!!!!!!!

_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

mintgreenwalleyemachine said:


> I just wish they would put a 12day gap instead of 5 days! It would help the birds settle down! Every weekend Lsc and Erie get pounded and the longer gap allows time for the divers to return to the us side. Also allows birds to congregate on public lands! From what I have seen in the last few years there has been plenty of participation in the Jan split!!!!!!!!
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


how do you know it takes 12 days for them settle down? 

thats great that you've seen lots of participation. i've seen none in the last few years. We are in the same zone. aint that something.

i'm pretty sure come dec. 12th we'll see plenty of pic's of guys shooting birds on some ice laden shore edge somewhere....and we'll have plenty of people happy or complaining about the season again. its michigan hunters nature.


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

Thank you CWAC for putting in the time and effort (and for putting up with all our complaints). 

I can live with the dates put out but will miss the 2 day late season. Actually, I am one that may not duck hunt Dec. 10/11 that would have hunted Dec 31/Jan 1. One of the issues that I have not seen discussed here is that of private land access. Some of my best late season spots are on private land that can't be hunted until after muzzleloading deer season ends (or the owners tag out). Now that all of the regular waterfowl season for Z3 overlaps with a deer season it will be even tougher to get on some of the fields/water I have hunted in the past. 

Hopefully this framework is just a step in the direction of addressing the real problem of zone alignment. However, I have my doubts as I have attended/served as a rep on CWAC in the past and know the roadblocks that must be overcome to make that change.


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

lang49 said:


> How is this a compromise?!
> 
> Dedicating 2 days out of 60 for the hardcore hunters, layout hunters, and SW Michigan- that is a compromise.
> 
> If this your idea of "going in the right direction" than you really don't understand all that waterfowling in Michigan has to offer.


I am willing to wager I hunt with more people and more days than you ever have for the last 25 years. I might know a bit more than you think. 

Moving this hunt period up by 3 weeks will have more hunters going than ever before. It has been boom or bust for the years we have had this hunt. Way more hunters will hunt it this year than ever. The whole idea is to retain and recruit more small game hunters. Nothing was set to make you or any of us happy. Its a compromise.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Bmac said:


> ....Hopefully this framework is just a step in the direction of addressing the real problem of zone alignment. However, I have my doubts as I have attended/served as a rep on CWAC in the past and know the roadblocks that must be overcome to make that change.


that is my hope, as someone who sits in the "peanut gallery" and observes. I think it's a small step in the right direction. This winter's meeting will be the big discussion of zone line changes. when you combine the idea of getting away from the traditional Jan weekend for the split, with the potential for some big changes to the zone structure, I think we're headed in a positive direction. But if in March we collectively decide to make no zone line changes, then I think maybe this whole thing was a bust. JMO.


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

hunting man said:


> Moving this hunt period up by 3 weeks will have more hunters going than ever before. It has been boom or bust for the years we have had this hunt. Way more hunters will hunt it this year than ever. The whole idea is to retain and recruit more small game hunters. Nothing was set to make you or any of us happy. Its a compromise.


How many additional licenses do you think will be sold as a result of 2 extra days in Dec. (ie. Recruitment)? My bet is 0. How many guys are going to say "Wow! 2 extra days in Dec. I guess I won't quit after all!"? (ie. retainment) Again I say 0.

A few more current hunters may hunt it but I doubt it will be a major difference, especially when it overlaps deer hunting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

just ducky said:


> that is my hope, as someone who sits in the "peanut gallery" and observes. I think it's a small step in the right direction. This winter's meeting will be the big discussion of zone line changes. when you combine the idea of getting away from the traditional Jan weekend for the split, with the potential for some big changes to the zone structure, I think we're headed in a positive direction. *But if in March we collectively decide to make no zone line changes, then I think maybe this whole thing was a bust. JMO*.


Agree with this 100%.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've followed this thread very closely. Lots of interesting comments.

Goosemanrdk-I've already told you my feelings on your resignation-I don't think you'd run me over, so please continue on and do the best you can do. We need you on the committee.

We have some date issues in this state, always have, that's why we got 3 zones to start with. The final map will be a different configuration, I have little doubt about that. How that needs to be drawn, can't answer that yet. But, when the right idea is unearthed-I'll share it with this forum. 

My "big picture" plan includes a significant effort to work on the Feds. AHM doesn't really work for Michigan, IMO. I may be just one guy barking about this stuff but there sure are a lot of you guys hearing me bark. CWAC is a MAJOR voice and we are going to start barking up some new trees. Letters will start the process and Michigan WILL be heard from. Will this make a difference, who knows. But, I've been told I couldn't do lots of things and found out otherwise after busting my tail. This will be no different-I honestly feel that way. 

I wish everyone the very best of luck this season. Think about that hen before you drop her and try to get some kids out during the youth hunt. Our future depends on both.


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## peters (Sep 28, 2010)

Are these the set dates for the season? 

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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

peters said:


> Are these the set dates for the season?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


The DNR WWG and CWAC concure and we both will recommend these dates to the NRC on August 11th. They (the NRC) have the final say but _likely_ will approve them as written.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

It helps me because I hardly ever messed with the late 2 day but will definetly utilize the extra December 2 days. 

I feel for the SW guys, since the late 2 day was no doubt better for them than Dec 10,11 will be. But adding the 2 days in December will no doubt increase participation and be better utilized.

One camp would like to start early as possible and another as late as possible and I'm sure there is another that would like somewhere in between. I think this season falls into the camp of somewhere in between. Early camp probably want's from Oct - Nov. Late camp probably want's Nov-Dec. November overlaps the want's of both, so where do you take days? Oct? Dec? 

I think that is where CWAC's mission statement may need to be tweaked a bit. I think it needs to state it's goal, is it for increasing hunter utilization or to provide quality and varied hunting experiences? 

If hunter utilization is the goal then Oct is off the table to take days from. Pretty cut and dried.

If providing a quality experience with all Michigan has to offer, then I think Oct is on the table to take days from. IMO, this is what we should manage for. If we are currently implementing "see what happens" policies, why not take a week from early Oct and see what happens with participation and license sales?


Since both camps overlap at November, I think November days should never be on the table for taking for a split.

I think as other have said, we need to end up at 4 zones. I don't think the Bay and Zone 2 is a good marriage, and no doubt in SW Michigan's eyes Zone 3 and the Bay are not a good marriage. And then there is contradicting statements on what SE Michigan want's. Leaves you with only a 4 zone option. 

For the UP dates, I agree with TJ. Poor placement of the split if you are an open water hunter.

Since I just gained 2 days of good hunting, I'll quit talking now


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

TSS Caddis said:


> It helps me because I hardly ever messed with the late 2 day but will definetly utilize the extra December 2 days.
> 
> Since I just gained 2 days of good hunting, I'll quit talking now


OMG!!! :yikes: Praise the Lord, we made TSS Caddis _happy?!!!_

(I was going to walk away from my computer but nearly fell off my chair when I read this!! I knew it-we now know that all things are possible!)


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

Am I to understand that Rob wants to resign from CWAC? Why does Rob want to resign? Because he was frustrated at not getting what he was proposing for SW MI? 

If I'm near as to the reasoning behind wanting to resign, then I have only this to write: You're a young man, Rob. Politics is best expressed under most circumstances with patience and timing. It takes time to get others to come around to a position in a participatory system. 

Keep at it. Don't give up. 

You're making an important set of voices heard. 

Again, keep at it. Don't give up.


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## Blacklab77 (Jun 21, 2006)

hunting man said:


> With only 50,000+ waterfowlers would it be possible the DNR send them all a survey? Could even issue one with the license purchase.


There was an idea floated to a few CWAC members to possibly make the survey online to reach more of Us, and save the DNR a butt load of money not having to print, pachkage, and mail out surverys!


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Blacklab77 said:


> There was an idea floated to a few CWAC members to possibly make the survey online to reach more of Us, and save the DNR a butt load of money not having to print, pachkage, and mail out surverys!


Can't questions just be added to the existing online survey?

I'm always for getting more input, just note that it is a double edged sword. Start asking the "Tennis Shoe" hunter what he want's for season dates and you may end up with nothing past November.


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

Here's the link to the DNR's page with waterfowl counts at various managed areas.These are counts of observed waterfowl, not counts of harvest.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10859-151581--,00.html

What I wish to point out is the trend of migration in these numbers.


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## Blacklab77 (Jun 21, 2006)

I didn't say it was going to be a good thing. Just saying it may reach more of us. Instead of the 8000 or so mailed ones. I guessing only about 50% get returned hearing maybe 4000 voices. We could now hit maybe 40K of the 88K hunters we have.

What the voices have to say does worry me :yikes:


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

hunting man said:


> I am willing to wager I hunt with more people and more days than you ever have for the last 25 years. I might know a bit more than you think.
> 
> Moving this hunt period up by 3 weeks will have more hunters going than ever before. It has been boom or bust for the years we have had this hunt. Way more hunters will hunt it this year than ever. The whole idea is to retain and recruit more small game hunters. Nothing was set to make you or any of us happy. Its a compromise.


It's only a compromise if you give something up. You (and everybody else who thinks a 5 day split is a good idea) haven't given up anything. 

If you're trying to tell me that we're going to retain more hunters because this split occurs 5 days after the regular season - I maintain that you don't really know what you're talking about!


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## MCMANN (Jan 13, 2010)

The season will never be set for the die hard hunters thats plain and simple. The dnr cant make every waterfowl hunter happy we have way to many differnet hunting styles and options here they do the best they can .

Hope everyone has a great season this fall

mike


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

Blacklab77 said:


> There was an idea floated to a few CWAC members to possibly make the survey online to reach more of Us, and save the DNR a butt load of money not having to print, pachkage, and mail out surverys!


Yes you did Blacklab77. I will relay that idea to Barb Avers today.


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

lang49 said:


> It's only a compromise if you give something up. You (and everybody else who thinks a 5 day split is a good idea) haven't given up anything.
> 
> If you're trying to tell me that we're going to retain more hunters because this split occurs 5 days after the regular season - I maintain that you don't really know what you're talking about!


What I am saying is we will have more hunters out hunting on these 2 days than we ever had on the late 2 days of the past. Hunter days afield are what the DNR's goals are. Having the last 2 days on New Years eve and New Years day hurts the hunter participation. It has nothing to do with it being better hunting or not. I think the goal is to get the more casual hunters to hunt more than to please the hardcore waterfowlers.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

I don't know if the mission statement has to change.

Its been in existence since the late 80's - hard to believe that 2011 is suddenly a new/unique issue that's never been addressed in any previous year.

IF the DNRs emphasis changes year to year from say hunter recruitment to increase gl mallard pop, cwac doesn't change. They're just going to advise dnr from the "citizens" point of view.
----
I feel like I have to continually remind people that CWAC ADVISES - they don't make policy.

IF you think the DNR didn't have their own framework "penciled" going into saturdays mtg and they were just waiting for cwac to wag the state dog... You're very mistaken.

If that's true, I'd fire all of them, from director on down and save my tax dollars.

It simple negotiation exercises:
What do you want
What will you accept
What is off the table and not negotiable.

I heard earlier (by this thread) that the DNR position on sat was that they were not going to even consider anything that split oct.

So, the "ferris plan" could've passed CWAC 19-0
Everyone would be slapping themselves silly.

Guess what? - you're screwed.

They'll go with their penciled plan (and its not unpresidented- happened before when I served)

"Well, if I don't get my way, then I want to keep jan split"

Maybe the DNR was already considering a move!

If you don't believe the info they collect, than that's another issue. It sounded like they had more data than hunting buddies talking shop that they might consider moving that date.

IF they had data that supported to KEEP the jan hunt as is, why move it?

"Well, Cwac wanted to" 
I (as DNR) would have to tell them politely to pound sand if it wasn't congruent with my objectives in 2011.
I'd also remind cwac - you advise me... That's it.
I'm not a puppet.

Did they hear that guys wanted more time in december? Do they possibly have data that supports a move?


Personally, if its true that the dnr didn't have a clue going into saturday and they were just waiting for cwac to tell them how it is.... I'm more than disappointed with them. Basically, you're saying there's lots of dead weight there. 

-----
Don't take this as my endorsement of the season structure. If I was thinking only of my own desires, I'd frame it differently for sure.

----
The Lang /hunting man side bar

Ever hear the adage "know your enemy better than you know yourself"?

It applies here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

people wanting to use more survey info....be careful for what u wish for. end result will more than likely not back your stance and backfire on you. its a slippery slope if you start polling...our season could very well start in september and end at deer season.


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## mintgreenwalleyemachine (Jan 18, 2005)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> how do you know it takes 12 days for them settle down?
> 
> thats great that you've seen lots of participation. i've seen none in the last few years. We are in the same zone. aint that something.
> 
> i'm pretty sure come dec. 12th we'll see plenty of pic's of guys shooting birds on some ice laden shore edge somewhere....and we'll have plenty of people happy or complaining about the season again. its michigan hunters nature.


Diver hunters on Lsc hunt like crazy on the weekends pushing a lot of birds to Canada! It takes them several days to return back to are side! It doesn't help that there can be 25+ layout rigs every sat/ sun in a 3 mile stretch! That's not including the boat blinds and box blinds! This is why like to hunt the weekdays and if hunting weekend hunt out deep! The natural spot for divers is near shore so they can feed but extreme pressure during season doesn't allow for this! It's funny after a 10 or longer period off the birds load up all along the shore in Lsc! I know its my opinion but I see it every year having grown up on Lsc! But at least with the new dates I know I can still layout shoot and won't have to camp out on public land at 10 pm the Friday before!!! Also I may have to take the old lady put for new years!


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Branta said:


> ...IF you think the DNR didn't have their own framework "penciled" going into saturdays mtg and they were just waiting for cwac to wag the state dog... You're very mistaken.
> 
> If that's true, I'd fire all of them, from director on down and save my tax dollars.
> .....
> Personally, if its true that the dnr didn't have a clue going into saturday and they were just waiting for cwac to tell them how it is.... I'm more than disappointed with them. Basically, you're saying there's lots of dead weight there.


You know the answer Branta. The waterfowl work group in the DNR did their due dilligence, and as usual had 4 zone 3 proposals drafted for the CWAC to consider on Saturday. I'm not a CWAC member, so I can't say for certain they were communicated with prior to the meeting, but from observing the group Saturday, I saw no wide-eyed surpised looks when those four options came up on the screen. 

So before too many of you continue to go off on the CWAC, they acted as they are charged to do...in an _advisory_ capacity for the DNR.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

PhilBernardi said:


> Here's the link to the DNR's page with waterfowl counts at various managed areas.These are counts of observed waterfowl, not counts of harvest.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10859-151581--,00.html
> 
> What I wish to point out is the trend of migration in these numbers.


But Phil, you've heard it and I hear it...we all hear it...those numbers come from the managed areas only. The average joe in Ionia County doesn't give a rip how many birds they count at Shiawassee, Fish Point or Allegan. (I'm just using Ionia as an example...)

What people continue to want is accurate data on bird migrations throughout the lower penninsula, and I continue to say to them, except for the observations of you and your budddies as you hunt your area in Ionia County, or me sitting on my deck in Clinton County watching for ducks fly over, just how would you propose to come up with that data? The managed area counts are the most accurate data set we have. Is it completely representative of the entire LP? no way. But it's the best we have.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

PhilBernardi said:


> Am I to understand that Rob wants to resign from CWAC? Why does Rob want to resign? Because he was frustrated at not getting what he was proposing for SW MI?
> 
> If I'm near as to the reasoning behind wanting to resign, then I have only this to write: You're a young man, Rob. Politics is best expressed under most circumstances with patience and timing. It takes time to get others to come around to a position in a participatory system.
> 
> ...


Phil, I apprecaite you trying to offer words of wisdom in this situation. Your advice is VERY VERY TRUE!!!! However, your reasoning behind why I want to resign in completely INCORRECT, and I am sure the couple of women that I work with and my wife will disagree with you as to my reasons. Whether they want to or not, they get to listen to my ramblings and know the reason why I want to possibly resign.

Not going to post on the open forum my reasons, as I feel it is a waste of time ad breath. If anyone for some odd reason would like to know, feel free to PM me.

But again, IT IS NOT BECAUSE I DIDN'T GET MY WAY!!!!!!!!

Good luck this season to everyone.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

lang49 said:


> It's only a compromise if you give something up. You (and everybody else who thinks a 5 day split is a good idea) haven't given up anything....


I disagree. As I laid out about two or three pages ago, EVERYONE gave up the January split, from all corners of the SLP, so everyone did compromise. Some just feel they gave up more than others. How you can think only you gave up something is beyond me. Of all the people I talked with at the CWAC meeting, and at the festival after, no one I talked to was overly happy. Some are only slightly happier than others because they see the POTENTIAL benefit of two more days in December.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

just ducky said:


> ...What people continue to want is accurate data on bird migrations throughout the lower penninsula, and I continue to say to them, except for the observations of you and your budddies as you hunt your area in Ionia County, or me sitting on my deck in Clinton County watching for ducks fly over, just how would you propose to come up with that data?


Band harvest data is a good start. It shows where the ducks were, where they were harvested, and what date they were harvested. It paints a pretty clear picture actually, especially if looking at it from a 10-20 year average.


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

Not sure if it was covered but.
Can we shoot geese over Thanksgiving?
Can we shoot geese on this 2 day December split?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Water_Hazard said:


> Not sure if it was covered but.
> Can we shoot geese over Thanksgiving?
> Can we shoot geese on this 2 day December split?


thanksgiving yes. 2 day split i believe so...but don't hold me to it. one of hte big things about it was overlap (thats hte word i heard while discussing it).


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

field-n-feathers said:


> Band harvest data is a good start. It shows where the ducks were, where they were harvested, and what date they were harvested. It paints a pretty clear picture actually, especially if looking at it from a 10-20 year average.


The DNR presented some of that Saturday as well. Maybe one of the CWAC members has it electronically?


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

just ducky said:


> The DNR presented some of that Saturday as well. Maybe one of the CWAC members has it electronically?


I've got all of it tabulated for the last 25 years. Don't need it from them.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Water_Hazard said:


> Not sure if it was covered but.
> Can we shoot geese over Thanksgiving?
> Can we shoot geese on this 2 day December split?


Assuming you are talking zone 3.
Thanksgiving YES
2 Day December split NO


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

Water_Hazard said:


> Not sure if it was covered but.
> Can we shoot geese over Thanksgiving?
> Can we shoot geese on this 2 day December split?


If the proposal goes through as presented........No, Zone 3 goose does not overlap the 2 day December split.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

Not much we can do now, let's try it and then regroup after the 60 days and get some observations. 

As long back as I can remember, even if its a two day weekend, I can't remember hunting that late in december.

Maybe with this set up, if we can get good numbers to participate, the dnr will recognize guys will continue to hunt into december, and its OK to move the seasons back a little bit. 

I remember going through all this chatter about the swd's last year, and guess what there were noticeable results in the goose harvest for the positive. Now the jury is still out if people want them or not, but its still stepping out on a limb and trying something.

Its not the end of the world, next year a new set of dates will come out.. Maybe a different group will get close to exactly what they want.

I wanted an early split, I personally think it would incrase participation, but the dnr didn't see it that way, maybe next year they will test it to see if in fact an early split will hurt participation.

Its all trial and error, and I commend the change, let's just put some hurtin on some birds, and measure the results at the end. Until that point, its all speculation
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

Dan,

I think a proposal to Nelson or some others at MSU to have the research ponds counted during the season would be a nice additional count to consider. I'm thinking a MS or Phd student could do that. 

Doing the same at some other unmolested spots would be of help too. Maybe at Seney and other areas....


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> ...As long back as I can remember, even if its a two day weekend, I can't remember hunting that late in december.


You're partially correct...We didn't quite go that far into December, but we did go until December 11th already. That was in the 2005-2006 season. Additionally, we had the late two day hunt that year as well.


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## ScavengerMan (Sep 6, 2006)

I favor an October split too and think it would increase participation from the tennis shoe crowd, but feel the latest proposal is an improvement in the right direction. It's about time the SE Michigan boys didn't dominate the direction with their beloved January split that has most of zone 3 locked up rock solid which last year saw me operating a snowmobile ice fishing on the Bay on New Years day. A December split will definitely see an increase in participation from the gang I run with and there will more than likely be lots of open water options to choose from. 

I'm liking the change and will probably plan an event with my boys and close hunting buddies around it. A BIG THUMBS UP!


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

just ducky said:


> I disagree. As I laid out about two or three pages ago, EVERYONE gave up the January split, from all corners of the SLP, so everyone did compromise. Some just feel they gave up more than others. How you can think only you gave up something is beyond me. Of all the people I talked with at the CWAC meeting, and at the festival after, no one I talked to was overly happy. Some are only slightly happier than others because they see the POTENTIAL benefit of two more days in December.


I wasn't trying to suggest that I (solely) gave up anything. Nowhere did I write that.

But to suggest that "EVERYONE gave up the January split" is wrong. Many hunters give up the January split every year. These hunters choose not to hunt it even though they know full well that they could travel, scout, and find birds to hunt. 

Just because a person doesn't want to make the added effort to hunt the split in January doesn't mean they should go out of their way to impede someone elses opportunity to enjoy it. That's all I'm trying to say.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

There are those of us SW MI hunters who think these proposed dates are just fine. Nearly all of my hunting partners - well over a dozen during the year - feel the same way. 

And I'll talk about the elephant in the room - the Jan 1-2 season. Deep snow from lake effect and very little open water concentrate the January birds tremendously. Do your scouting and it's like shooting ducks in a barrel. Not much calling skill or decoying invovled - sort of like hunting a deer yard up in the U.P. in February. If this is your thing, then so be it. But there are those of us who hunt here in SW MI that think maybe if the ducks outsmarted us during the regular season when the playing field was level, then they should live to be seed for next year.

Job well done CWAC. And thank you to ALL those who spent their time at the meeting and ALL those who gave their opinion. It means you care about your sport.


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## taysteeed (Mar 29, 2010)

the dnr and some erie guide said lo numbers on erie for the janury 2 day hunt? thats funny you couldnt find a parking space at lake erie metro park for either day and theres over 100 parking spaces, and every ramp along the detroit river that was open was filled to the limit and a few of the crews i talked to came from the bay area so where did this lo partisapation info come from?


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

TNL said:


> There are those of us SW MI hunters who think these proposed dates are just fine. Nearly all of my hunting partners - well over a dozen during the year - feel the same way.


I agree on the thanks to CWAC, even if it didn't get changed enough to make a difference. 

But don't you feel that hunting later into December would totally support your stance here ? Do away with the fish barrell hunt and hunt until near Xmas ? That would totally fit your description of what you like. Lose some October days and hunt 3 weeks into December. Then we can have some flight birds to hunt. Calling them works, decoys work, scouting really pays off. 
While I am thankful for the extra 2 days in December, I feel it could be a lot better. If I am interpreting what you are saying right, you would agree.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

Bellyup said:


> I agree on the thanks to CWAC, even if it didn't get changed enough to make a difference.
> 
> But don't you feel that hunting later into December would totally support your stance here ? Do away with the fish barrell hunt and hunt until near Xmas ? That would totally fit your description of what you like. Lose some October days and hunt 3 weeks into December. Then we can have some flight birds to hunt. Calling them works, decoys work, scouting really pays off.
> While I am thankful for the extra 2 days in December, I feel it could be a lot better. If I am interpreting what you are saying right, you would agree.


It was my understanding from earlier posts that an October split was out because of the DNR. Post split straight through to 12/11 or 12/16 would be great if the DNR would allow the spilt to be front loaded.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Bellyup said:


> I agree on the thanks to CWAC, even if it didn't get changed enough to make a difference.
> 
> But don't you feel that hunting later into December would totally support your stance here ? Do away with the fish barrell hunt and hunt until near Xmas ? That would totally fit your description of what you like. Lose some October days and hunt 3 weeks into December. Then we can have some flight birds to hunt. Calling them works, decoys work, scouting really pays off.
> While I am thankful for the extra 2 days in December, I feel it could be a lot better. If I am interpreting what you are saying right, you would agree.


sorry, as long as sag county and bay are in z3, i'm not willing to give you 3 weeks in december. i'll fight it as hard as i can. we might have to give a little, but i'm not gonna ever come close to supporting massive december hunt.


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## idylmoments (Apr 28, 2002)

I'm all for this. Thank you CWAC members and the others who attended for their input.
I never liked the Jan split. I am more likely to hunt after the split with the current proposal.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

lang49 said:


> ...Just because a person doesn't want to make the added effort to hunt the split in January doesn't mean they should go out of their way to impede someone elses opportunity to enjoy it. That's all I'm trying to say.


????? Were you at the CWAC meeting? Who went out of their way to "impede someone elses opportunity"? Is this another conspiracy theory about someone or some group out to get someone else? 

You are right that many choose not to hunt the Jan weekend. The data the DNR has indicates a minority of hunters utilize the Jan weekend. But there are lots of reasons for this. Don't just assume they aren't willing to "make the added effort".


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## Trippin' Dipsies (May 7, 2003)

I actually would like to see Northern Ohio's Season Dates for Z3: 10/16-11/14 then 11/20-12/19. I have to admit, a 5-day break to open up for 2-days seems relatively pointless. 

Also, I really don't comprehend the whole "hunter participation" push or idea and how it's relevant when determining a split season. Are more people going to buy a $5 MI Duck Stamp now that the JAN weekend is gone? A decrease in "hunter participation" (to include small game licenses) most likely correlates to limited areas to hunt (public & private), a failing economy, and/or the decline in family traditions with regard to hunting.

On the other hand, I guess I don't have a right to bitch if I didn't attend the CWAC Meetings....


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Trippin' Dipsies said:


> I actually would like to see Northern Ohio's Season Dates for Z3: 10/16-11/14 then 11/20-12/19. I have to admit, a 5-day break to open up for 2-days seems relatively pointless.
> 
> Also, I really don't comprehend the whole "hunter participation" push or idea and how it's relevant when determining a split season. Are more people going to buy a $5 MI Duck Stamp now that the JAN weekend is gone? A decrease in "hunter participation" (to include small game licenses) most likely correlates to limited areas to hunt (public & private), a failing economy, and/or the decline in family traditions with regard to hunting.
> 
> On the other hand, I guess I don't have a right to bitch if I didn't attend the CWAC Meetings....


or...maybe those that buy the $5 stamp couldn't hunt the january split. glass half full or half empty. goes both ways.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Trippin' Dipsies said:


> I actually would like to see Northern Ohio's Season Dates for Z3: 10/16-11/14 then 11/20-12/19. I have to admit, a 5-day break to open up for 2-days seems relatively pointless.
> 
> Also, I really don't comprehend the whole "hunter participation" push or idea and how it's relevant when determining a split season. Are more people going to buy a $5 MI Duck Stamp now that the JAN weekend is gone? A decrease in "hunter participation" (to include small game licenses) most likely correlates to limited areas to hunt (public & private), a failing economy, and/or the decline in family traditions with regard to hunting.
> 
> On the other hand, I guess I don't have a right to bitch if I didn't attend the CWAC Meetings....


I'm sure those things you mention, as well as huge unemployment numbers, do contribute to the decline. But they have figures for deer hunting (all types) and turkey hunting that show holding their own or minor declines in sales. So why aren't those other "societal" issues like the economy and unemployment affecting Deer and Turkey too? 

When you think about it in pure license sales, a small game license has been $15 and a duck stamp $5 for a long time now, so if they claim to have lost 50k small game hunters over the last decade, then that's $15 x 50,000, or $3/4 mil per year, for 10 years! Okay, maybe it wasn't 50k each year, but let's say an average of 35k over those 10 years, that's still over 1/2 mil per year in lost revenue. Plus those who would've bought $5 duck stamps. And if you think about federal ducks stamp sales, which a portion goes back to the states, then it's maybe another $100 grand? So it does all add up. 

But another important consideration that we all forget are the incidental revenues from hunting. It's more than just license sales (although that's clearly part of it). If you look at spending for gas, food, lodging, gear, gun and ammo sales, maybe more state park passports sold, etc., I think that all plays into it. Statisticians could probably quantify it, like a per hunter dollar amount spent. I'm sure for each additional license, they would claim X number of dollars go into the economy. 

DNR Wildlife Chief Russ Mason made it very clear the problem is small game hunting, and that is where they're focusing. I can see why.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

Trippin' Dipsies said:


> I have to admit, a 5-day break to open up for 2-days seems relatively pointless.


I am curious to as why? Is 30 days better than 5? As mentioned before, other states have 5-7 day splits and its like a new opener. Birds go back to their regular patterns in a couple of days when unmolested. Why do you think MI would be any different? 

God, can you imagine if it stays really warm until Dec 11, this fourm will be hopping.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

wavie said:


> I am curious to as why? Is 30 days better than 5? As mentioned before, other states have 5-7 day splits and its like a new opener. Birds go back to their regular patterns in a couple of days when unmolested. Why do you think MI would be any different?
> 
> God, can you imagine if it stays really warm until Dec 11, this fourm will be hopping.


Hey Wavie, can you provide some data to support your claim on the 5 days being like a new opener ? Are there some documents for those states that do this to prove this fact ? (This is not a dig, I am being serious). If the data is purely opinions and speculation from the hunters of those states, then I guess we need to listen to opinions and speculations as well in MI. I hope you are right; it is like a new opening day. I don't know about the area you hunt in, but around me, the weekdays bring relatively little pressure to the birds. In theory, every weekend should be like opening day ?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Bellyup said:


> Hey Wavie, can you provide some data to support your claim on the 5 days being like a new opener ? Are there some documents for those states that do this to prove this fact ? (This is not a dig, I am being serious). If the data is purely opinions and speculation from the hunters of those states, then I guess we need to listen to opinions and speculations as well in MI. I hope you are right; it is like a new opening day. I don't know about the area you hunt in, but around me, the weekdays bring relatively little pressure to the birds. In theory, every weekend should be like opening day ?


bellyup...take some of your own questions you just asked and ask them to yourself. you guys are bitching about 5 day split, but you have no idea if its good or bad. your assuming a lot.

assuming mid week is little pressure....kidding right? there is no break from pressure unless the weather is bluebird, sunny and 70 degrees in november. birds wont move regardless.


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

5 days is a good split for managed areas where the birds are getting hammered every day. Outside of the managed areas there is little pressure during the week in aot of areas.

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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> bellyup...take some of your own questions you just asked and ask them to yourself. you guys are bitching about 5 day split, but you have no idea if its good or bad. your assuming a lot.
> 
> assuming mid week is little pressure....kidding right? there is no break from pressure unless the weather is bluebird, sunny and 70 degrees in november. birds wont move regardless.


Agree here...But why can't we reccommend something like NY does in their finger lakes region...Quite awesome..I go there 2nd weekend of January every year and crush birds...Froze out or not birds are abundant...

It is what it is but it would just be nice if they would always combine both ducks and geese when doing a split..


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Huntermax-4 said:


> 5 days is a good split for managed areas where the birds are getting hammered every day. Outside of the managed areas there is little pressure during the week in aot of areas.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


if birds are huntable, they are pressured. if birds land in a field and you see them on your way home from work...you are hunting them. birds know when they don't get shot at for 5 days.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> ...But why can't we reccommend something like NY does in their finger lakes region...Quite awesome..I go there 2nd weekend of January every year and crush birds...Froze out or not birds are abundant...


What do they do? a longer split? Shut down some days of the week? I'm not familiar with that region.


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## Down River (Sep 10, 2009)

What about late goose?


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

How do you know 5 days is enough? you don't. too many factors
how do you know 12-18 is enough? you don't. too many factors
how do you know 30 is just right? you don't. too many factors....

sense a theme?

maybe the magic number is 6! The only ones that know are the ducks!!

what you can affirmatively say is that 5 days allows you another weekend of _more_ predictable hunting conditions.

tripping- you're not going to have the N. Ohio season because it wouldn't make sense for our zone 3. as I said earlier; it makes no sense that a guy in bay city is starting/ending his season the same time a guy 5hrs south of him on I-75 starts/ends the season in Celina, OH (the southern border of n. ohio zone. and I know the spot well.)

secondly, even if it was kicked around, we'd flip out because guys want to hunt ducks during the deer season here. we've heard all about how you can't mess with november on this board.


trivia question; does anyone here know how/why we even had the opportunity to shoot ducks in January?

guys were PO'd we did it back then to move the split that far out.


Listen, it's simple:
count the total days a hunter could hunt _waterfowl_ in Michigan last year, going from zone to zone.

count how many days a hunter in michigan can hunt the zones this year

~~~~~
again, it sounds like im ringing the bell with this proposed season - I'm not. I'm not clapping my hands and I'm not looking to lynch anybody either; just perfectly indifferent to it really. 

What I'm having a hard time with is understanding all the grousing and a "March on Lansing" theme. 

are we really saying that we want to hunt later than N.zone of Illinois? and much later than south wisconsin? well, "season closes too early"....
have you ever been through Northern Illinois/McHenry county or Chicagoland 5 days after the season closes?! they'd say the same thing looking at birds flying around unmolested.

and the beauty is that it can /will change again next year! if it's one thing here in michigan you can count on, it'd be (IN)consistency!


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

Down River said:


> What about late goose?
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


CWAC will recommend Dec. 31-Jan 29.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

NRC is meeting this week to set the season. should know by end of week final set of season.


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