# Rgs



## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

I know many of us that use this thread are active members of the Ruffed Grouse Society in Michigan. We've been told that things have been financially tight for RGS lately. That said as members what would be our wish list for RGS in Michigan. Lets try to keep it reasonable. 
On another note for those of you that hunt grouse in Michigan but aren't members of the Ruffed Grouse Society, why not? Thanks, macvet51 mike mcdonald


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

1. A biologist
2. I can't figure out why not only grouse and woodcock hunters do not belong to RGS but why Audubon members don't join. It is about sustaining and generating habitat that dozens of species use.


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

A biologist!


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

I wish I could find out where my closest chapter was.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

:banghead3 on the biologst


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Lucky Dog, What about Saginaw? macvet51


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## anon21511 (Jan 13, 2006)

I agree about the nearest chapter. Have never heard from anyone, except it's time to renew!


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i agree, biologist is number 1. how many years has it been, 6, 8? i would think they could hire one for 75K a year or less including benefits. we are probably the 3rd largest grouse state in the nation and we still dont have one.

i think that our chapter should be doing far more in the way of education, partiuarly regarding clear cutting of aspen. i suggested it to my own chapter. big yawn.

feedback. speaking for my own chapter, we dont hear any detailed information as to how much was made at banquets, profits, amount sent to Pa etc. the organization as a whole is not very transparent.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

1. Biologist

2. Funds for subsidising cutting


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Lucky Dog said:


> I wish I could find out where my closest chapter was.


My number one complaint! RGS really needs to take a look at recruiting its members to do more then send in a check every year.



dogwhistle said:


> i think that our chapter should be doing far more in the way of education, partiuarly regarding clear cutting of aspen. i suggested it to my own chapter. big yawn.


I agree. Everyday people hear "cutting down trees" and automatically think bad things.



dogwhistle said:


> feedback. speaking for my own chapter, we dont hear any detailed information as to how much was made at banquets, profits, amount sent to Pa etc. the organization as a whole is not very transparent.


I assume you are active in chapter events? If so, that's unacceptable.


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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

I welcome all of the members and to be members to join our group in kalamazoo our group works on several things and am always looking for more people to help out or bring new ideas. 

a biologist would be pleasent
a multi group effort on 
education
land project
hand outs that would draw in outsiders
media exposer


look at pheasants forever for example with the tv shows and festables


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

1) Habitat - via keeping money earned in Michigan spent in Michigan

1A) Work to increase habitat on Federal Lands

2) Honest Overhead Numbers


Just want to share some numbers.



> 2007 Net Banquette Revenue $190,240.00 - RGS per your info spent about $22,500.00 on habitat last year in our state. Doug told me that like 80% of all Net goes to habitat (the number may have been higher). This is the 167,740.00 dollar question?


The above I took from an email exchange with Dr. Zagata - I was asking for more detail on what is being done in Michigan, and where our money is being spent?



I will be pitching the idea of a State Wide Michigan RGS Committee/Coalition at the annual State Work Shop. The idea is that key members of each chapter get together to pressure national for accountability on how funds raised in Michigan are spent. I believe we need a state wide effort to hold national accountable for the decisions they make. I believe that we can have a bigger impact as a state banded together, then we can with individual chapters voicing concern.

This Coalition will make a list of our hopes and dreams, a list of changes we want to see, then we will rank as a state wide organization what we feel is most important via vote. Hopefully we can bring the voises of each chapter together, compile them, then pass them on to National and the Board of Directors.

I might be crazy, but please attend this January and at least listen to my pitch.


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## geojasstef (Jan 23, 2005)

Fred ........why did you edit you post. PM me if you what to

I was trying to find tax info online on the RGS but couldn't find any.?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

geojasstef said:


> Fred ........why did you edit you post. PM me if you what to
> 
> I was trying to find tax info online on the RGS but couldn't find any.?


 
This is not the thread for me to flame Dr. Zagata, Mac is asking for suggestions not my arm chair CEO opinion.

If you would like some info - please email me at [email protected] and I can share some of what I deleted.


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## geojasstef (Jan 23, 2005)

will do


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> This is not the thread for me to flame Dr. Zagata, Mac is asking for suggestions not my arm chair CEO opinion.
> 
> If you would like some info - please email me at [email protected] and I can share some of what I deleted.


I understand why you took out what you did....but that stuff does need to be discussed. 

Maybe this board isn't the place, but somewhere....


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Seems that a biologist is number one on everyone's list. Why?

What would that person's job description be and what are you hoping they could accomplish? What are biologists doing in other areas? In what ways are we suffering because we don't have one?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't know much about it. Educate me.

KW


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> 1) Habitat - via keeping money earned in Michigan spent in Michigan
> pitch.


Fritz, I really like your direction, but I'm not sure that RGS members in Michigan can come close to directly financing the amount of habitat work required to make a noticeable difference. 

In general, I'd like to see our money used to somehow coerce the right parties to do the habitat work for us: whether the habitat funds actually come from the feds, state licence fees or where ever. This of course would require a well designed political action strategy, a thorough knowledge of all the moving pieces in the equation and the right people to execute it. To dovetail this into your comments, it's obvious to me that something like this would have to be spear-headed by the national office---upon our insistence.



Steelheadfred said:


> I might be crazy, but please attend this January and at least listen to my pitch.


I'll try to make it.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Mike,

I agree with your thoughts, I dont think our money should be used to complete physical management, but I do expect it to be used to support efforts to educate, influence, lobby (even though we cant ask for votes), the decision makers. 

I also expect real honest answers on what the money we raise is going to, and I expect accountability for the money raised. I expect to be informed about meetings attended, phone calls made, ect...What the hell is being done for habitat in our state? Lets find out? If Dan D attends this meeting, let us know.

If we have 150K - well lets hire biologist/lobbiest/drum beater to organize chapters to make sure we attend every compartment review, that we have folks at every NRC meeting, to make sure we motivate the membership to make comments on Federal Forest Management. Lets hire this "person" to use their education to inform and educate and fight for what we need to maintain and increase available habitat.

The problem is, as the third biggest grouse hunting state in the country, we only had 22,500 spent on habitat in 2007 in Michigan. 

I have been told that Doug's Job is a fund raiser - so we have sat for at least 6 year with out a key person organizing the efforts that will have a direct impact on the sport we love.

Al Stewart told us the formula at the work shop last year, attend compartment reviews, comment at NRC meetings in support of forest managemend, and make dam sure we get as many comments as possible on National Forest Work....We need someone to cordinate these efforts, a person with the knowledge, passion, and education to make it happen.


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## geojasstef (Jan 23, 2005)

FindTheBird said:


> Fritz, I really like your direction, but I'm not sure that RGS members in Michigan can come close to directly financing the amount of habitat work required to make a noticeable difference.


I wonder how many members are from Michigan.....and maybe if more of the money stayed in the state more people might join the RGS and invest time.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> Mike,
> 
> I agree with your thoughts, I dont think our money should be used to complete physical management, but I do expect it to be used to support efforts to educate, influence, lobby (even though we cant ask for votes), the decision makers.
> 
> ...


Well said, I think we're on the same page.


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> I might be crazy...


Might be...???...lol

Sorry Fritz buddy, but you just can't give me a line like that and then expect anything but that...

Hummmm??? RGS.

1) The biggest thing I'd like to see here in Michigan is...MORE chapters. Just like PF has. Heck, there are six PF chapters in the southeastern Michigan alone...(Lapeer, Monroe, Northern Macomb, Oakland Co, St. Clair Co, Thumb).

Pheasants Forever has roughly thirty-eight chapters statewide. 

RGS???...I couldn't tell you. I know we have the Southeartern MI, Lapeer, Monroe...but that's about it as far as I know. 

I looked for ten minutes, over on the RGS web-site, and couldn't find that info. That's sad, in my opinion. It took me two minutes to find out the chapter info on PF's site.

In my opinion, we need more chapters. Why? It would make it easier for members to become more involved with their chapter or would at least offer them better access to their chapters banquet...without driving fifty-some miles to get there. 

2) Fritz mentioned at the last workshop about having a "membership drive" statewide. But, nothing really ever become of it. Sure our chapter and many other chapters did recruitment booths throughout the region and statewide. But, I don't feel that's enough. We need some sort of "push from nationals", to motivate the masses. Maybe, radio adds or a TV show like what was previously mentioned here.

Just some thoughts...

Brian (aka - twosetters)


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## direwolf23 (Jan 7, 2008)

I am not a member I am interested in becoming one. I am not sure where the nearest chapter is to Mt. Pleasant so if anyone knows, please post the info.

Aside from that, it sounds like the group needs leader for the state over a biologist. An organization without solid leadership likely will... well, perform as described above. Pay someone that same money to take the bull by the horns, get membership drives going, motivate the organizations base, and to lobby and promote where possible and not only will the position pay for itself, but it will bring in funds that can actually make a difference. The other thing a paid leader would do is provide the transparency needed in organizations such as this.

Just some thoughts.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Mike McDonald said:


> On another note for those of you that hunt grouse in Michigan but aren't members of the Ruffed Grouse Society, why not? Thanks, macvet51 mike mcdonald


1. I'm not a member because prior to December of last year I didn't live in MI and had never really gone grouse hunting. Having said that, and don't take this the wrong way, my upland hunting opportunities in terms of varieties of birds are more limited here than back in the PNW so that is going to change...assuming this raging bull of a Pointer sleeping on the couch here continues to work out that is.

2. As a non-member, I will say that I think a BIG problem for the RGS, state or national, is a lack of exposure. I can walk into just about any sporting goods store that sells upland gear and I'm pretty well guaranteed I will see something that says Pheasants Forever on it that I can buy. I can't say the same for the RGS. I'll be honest, that's how they got me to look into them and become a member. The difference is striking, so much so that when I started my new job out here, one of the first things I was asked by a woman I work with, after I told her I bird hunt, was if I belong to Pheasants Forever because she belongs to whatever chapter is out in or around Genesee County. She doesn't belong to the RGS and I'm not sure she would know what it is. 

3. I'd like to see more of the science behind clear cutting as a solution to declining grouse numbers, both for myself and as a matter of public education. Unlike the pheasant the grouse is a native and it somehow managed to exist before the advent of clear cutting. I'm not saying the science is wrong, quite the contrary, but I don't think it's made public in detail or in a digestable form enough. Really, if you live in the burbs, are slightly environmental and inquisitive, you have to ask why it's necessary. Saying we like to hunt grouse just isn't good enough. 

Will I join? Probably, and soon. But this is what I see going on as an outsider and since you asked...

I agree with everyone else, you need a biologist. The more respected the better.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

I am a member. I have to be honest the only reason I joined was to run my dog in a RGS Dog Trial. I was coaxed into doing it. You may ask with all the grouse hunting I do why would I not join for that reason.

I like to know where my money is being spent I want to see tangible results. I want to see a quarterly news letter telling me what has been accomplished in my area or state with the funds and what the future plans are for the area I live and hunt in. I would be more trusting of these organization if I could see the money trail. I want to know who volunteers and who gets paid and how much they get paid. I find that its hard to get this information from these organizations. I don't want to be miss leading here RGS does do an annual financial report and we get to see that every year over 60% of the money raised is spent on Chapter operations. only about 20% is spent on habitat and only 2% is spent on research. I want a more detailed accountability of the money. I am very concerned about large organizations loosing their effectiveness because the huge bureaucracy they create seem to slow down the rate of progress and have a higher cost of overhead operation. 

I have to agree with westcosthunter. RGS needs more public exposure. 

Westcoasthunter, here is some reading that may help explain the reasons for clear cutting.

http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/publications/pdfs/huntingwildlifehabitat/Landowners_Guide/Species_Mgmt/Ruffed_Grouse.htm

JMHO


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

In no particular order it sounds like so far we have.
Biologist
Financial Transparency
Increased Educational Effort
Exposure on commercially available gear like Pheasant Forever
Lobbying organization at State and Federal level
More chapters
Membership drive
Believe me I'm not trying to start a war. I think RGS has room for improvement so do I professionally and personally. However right now they are the only game in town that specifically works in any capacity to support and improve the sport I love. I think Michigan is currently underserved. I believe that Doug and Mike Z believe that as well. I think we need to understand what we want as a group of members and in what order. Our state meeting is 2 months away. Lets work together to get organized and clearly ask for what we want and then help RGS provide it. Thanks again, mac


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## Setter (Mar 20, 2001)

Better communication about what benefits and activities are impacting Michigan RGS members and other grouse hunters. A Michigan newsletter or section in the magazine that is specific to Michigan as to cuttings that RGS is working on and other activities such as dog trials, youth hunts, banquets, etc. Even a quarterly email might be an effective way to keep the interests in from of the RGS members.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Setter said:


> Even a quarterly email might be an effective way to keep the interests in from of the RGS members.


 That already exists. Email Doug and ask to be placed on his FAN list. About 750 people get it right now as I understand it.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

There used to be a state council many years ago. We met in Claire and had a couple meetings per year. It was basically 10-20 people being kept in the loop. Roberts rules prevailed.


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## PahtridgeHunter (Sep 1, 2004)

Shotgun Kennel said:


> 1. A biologist
> 2. I can't figure out why not only grouse and woodcock hunters do not belong to RGS but why Audubon members don't join. It is about sustaining and generating habitat that dozens of species use.


You said it, Tim!


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

I go back to my comment about exposure. How many members of the Audubon Society have even heard of the Ruffed Grouse Society or understand what it's about? My bet is not many.


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

Steelheadfred said:


> 1) Habitat - via keeping money earned in Michigan spent in Michigan
> 
> 1A) Work to increase habitat on Federal Lands
> 
> ...


Oh, Oh! You are going to stir up the Z-man. I love it. I will try to make the meeting.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Shotgun Kennel said:


> I will try to make the meeting.


 Try my ass you're driving!


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

interesting comments. habitat is the prime directive. without it, there will be no more grouse to hunt in the future.

i've said this a lot of times, but to maintain our current level of aspen habitat on state forest, we need to be cutting a minimum of about 20,000 acres per year. we are actually cutting only about 10,000 acres per year. that's a shortfall of at least 10,000 acres per year(probably closer to twice that number). the RGS in writing about the woodcock stamp proposal, said it costs $200 per acre to cut aspen. so it would cost about $2 milllion dollars per year to cut at a rate to maintain our aspen habitat on state forests. the RGS doesnt have that kind of money. they dont seem to raise enough to hire a biologist(whose job is more "lobbying" the state and federal agencies to make habitat than anything else).

the MIchigan DNR recieves about $30 million in license fees and another $10 million in pittman robertson funds. $40 million dolllars- all from hunters. and aspen benefits almost all game animals, not just grouse and woodcock.

i've belonged to the RGS for many years and am moderatly active. i brought up this issue at the last meeting and got a lot of double speak frrom Stewart and a retired DNR forest service employee.

i've come to the conclusion that the RGS is mainly a social organization. we hold meetings and banquets and sell raffle tickets so that we can pay salaries and hold more meetings and banquets. i'll continue to attend because that's the only time a very good friend and i have to get together outside of hunting season.

i consider myself a dedicated grouse hunter but i dont have the years to wait for the RGS and DNR to "do something". it isnt going to happen. so i'll go to the meetings to see a friend, and change my strategy of hunting to be able to "cherry pick" the better areas through the season.

but unless all sportsman within this state band together and start asking some real hard questions, nothing will ever happen. i've seen a lot of deterioration of grouse hunting over the 22 yrs i have been actively hunting them. 20-30 yrs in the future, grouse hunting will be like pheasant hunting is now.


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## geojasstef (Jan 23, 2005)

I am a member and I don't mind paying the $25 per year. Even thought I will join again and will stay a member as long as I can finically afford it......lets face it, its the cost of a case a beer and a pack of smokes. But I would like to see more time and money spent in Michigan. Can any one tell me what percentage of the total membership comes from this state and how much 'time and money' is returned from corporate in PA.
I need to do more for my local chapter, the people that I meet there were extremely nice and welcoming. Sometimes its difficult when you are working have a family and gas (was) $4.25 a gallon to find the time, but there is always 'the time' if you want to find it.



Unregistered4 said:


> 1) The biggest thing I'd like to see here in Michigan is...MORE chapters. Just like PF has. Heck, there are six PF chapters in the southeastern Michigan alone...(Lapeer, Monroe, Northern Macomb, Oakland Co, St. Clair Co, Thumb).
> Pheasants Forever has roughly thirty-eight chapters statewide.
> RGS???...I couldn't tell you. I know we have the Southeartern MI, Lapeer, Monroe...but that's about it as far as I know.
> I looked for ten minutes, over on the RGS web-site, and couldn't find that info. That's sad, in my opinion. It took me two minutes to find out the chapter info on PF's site.
> In my opinion, we need more chapters. Why? It would make it easier for members to become more involved with their chapter or would at least offer them better access to their chapters banquet...without driving fifty-some miles to get there.


Brian, I agree, how can Pheasant's Forever have so many Chapters. I live in an area which at one time would have been pheasant heaven but now you rarely see any birds. With the state of pheasant hunting you would think that Pheasant's Forever would be nonexistence in Michigan but they seam to have lots of chapters and activities going on.

Also a lot of people have been talking about a Biologist and the fact that Michigan has been without on for 6 years......maybe I'm wrong but it seams to me that RGS isn't trying very hard to find one!


http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5490

This site gives you all kinds of interesting information on the RGS, Quail Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Pheasant Forever, etc


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

OK,

A little RGS defense here.

The biggest problem facing RGS is communication, they are terrible at it, and if they were a private company they would have failed long time ago.

The work of Dan Desseker is worth your membership, trust me. He is the most impressive individual on the payroll for RGS IMO with probaly Mark Banker running a short second. These two guys IMO understand the impact that needs to be made. 

The problem is RGS does not promote them, write about them, or celebrate the success they have. They need to share that hey this much money of your went into Dan spending two weeks in Washington speaking to these people.

But they dont they fail, and I believe the leadership at the top needs to be held accountable for these actions.

Just like in all of our private business's the buck stops at the top. Mac has to be responsible for his business in the same manner Scott and myself are responsible for ours.

More to come, I have a cop comming to the hotel to talk about a guest who they suspect is moving some drugs I guess. Good dam times.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

dogwhistle said:


> interesting comments. habitat is the prime directive. without it, there will be no more grouse to hunt in the future.
> 
> i've said this a lot of times, but to maintain our current level of aspen habitat on state forest, we need to be cutting a minimum of about 20,000 acres per year. we are actually cutting only about 10,000 acres per year. that's a shortfall of at least 10,000 acres per year(probably closer to twice that number). the RGS in writing about the woodcock stamp proposal, said it costs $200 per acre to cut aspen. so it would cost about $2 milllion dollars per year to cut at a rate to maintain our aspen habitat on state forests. the RGS doesnt have that kind of money. they dont seem to raise enough to hire a biologist(whose job is more "lobbying" the state and federal agencies to make habitat than anything else).
> 
> ...


Just to play devil's advocate here. Ruffed Grouse live in other parts of the country, and are hunted there, that do not have any Aspen at all. Western Washington and Oregon come to mind. Having said that, clear cutting is done there on a regular basis on private logging lands that people can hunt on and state and national forest lands are hit to one degree or another as well.

Are we talking about just sustaining raw bird numbers here or are we talking survival of the species? I ask because as I said before, Ruffed Grouse were here before clear cutting, so somehow they had to be successful in that situation.

I'm not trying to make an environmental argument here, but I keep seeing clear cutting called out as the solution and I'm just trying to figure out what the end goal is. Greater and/or sustained bird numbers or survival of the species?

It's just a gut feeling, but I think this is the major tripping point in the cause.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

geojasstef said:


> With the state of pheasant hunting you would think that Pheasant's Forever would be nonexistence in Michigan but they seam to have lots of chapters and activities going on.


 Fact is there is still very good pheasant hunting on private land in Michigan. That's where PF makes hay and why there are so many chapters and members.
If access is a concern for you then RGS is your vehicle.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Are we talking about just sustaining raw bird numbers here or are we talking survival of the species? I ask because as I said before, Ruffed Grouse were here before clear cutting, so somehow they had to be successful in that situation.
> 
> I'm not trying to make an environmental argument here, but I keep seeing clear cutting called out as the solution and I'm just trying to figure out what the end goal is. Greater and/or sustained bird numbers or survival of the species?
> 
> It's just a gut feeling, but I think this is the major tripping point in the cause.


In simple terms....
-Deforestation due to the logging industry.
-Farming and all that went along with that and then the collapse of farming and lands reverting back to early succesional woodlands.
-Fire. Man has become so efficient at extinguishing forest fire that it is not a tool of regeneration as it has been in past decades.

Today cutting trees is about the only tool for regenerating early succesional forest types which grouse and woodcock, et al thrive in the Lake States.
That and the occasional act of God.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

> Are we talking about just sustaining raw bird numbers here or are we talking survival of the species? I ask because as I said before, Ruffed Grouse were here before clear cutting, so somehow they had to be successful in that situation.
> 
> I'm not trying to make an environmental argument here, but I keep seeing clear cutting called out as the solution and I'm just trying to figure out what the end goal is. Greater and/or sustained bird numbers or survival of the species?


 
OK, before clear cutting in Michigan we had forest fires that just burned till they went out, this created the regeneration of Aspen that will just die around 60 years old.

If you want to see the effects of Aspen on our Grouse Population I offer this advice to you.

Please go Hunt the Manistee National Forest for an entire weekend - a place that has had very little management of Aspen (we manage aspen now by clear cutting, because we no longer let fires burn) - then travel to some State Forests and hunt there for a weekend and report your findings.

If you try and compare the the PNW to the Great Lakes States you are really comparing Apples and Oranges.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> the RGS was involved in one lawsuit several years ago that was brought by the Sierra. i think they mostly just added their name to the list of defendents and possibly some testimony. they have never been involved in a suit that required the creation of a reasonable amount of habitat.
> 
> .


Mike,

In I think 05 or 06 - RGS brought suit against the Feds for failing to manage or carry out forest management plans on the Hiawatha National Forest in the UP - they won the law suit based on failure to provide habitat for WC a federal managed migratory bird.

I dont have time to search for it right now, but it was a big win. A Lawyer from MN donated his time to make this happen.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Mike McDonald said:


> Does anyone have anything to add to this list? To me this thread isn't the list that you send to Santa it is a working list for discussion with RGS. thanks again, macvet51 aka mike mcdonald


Mike -

Maybe time for a new thread? "Dear Santa" or something like that?

KW


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Dear Santa,

I want hunters to understand that in order to carry on their tradition they must themselves become active environmentalists and I want extreme environmental groups to understand that hunters are not their enemy.

WCH

P.S. - Some roasted grouse and a glass of wine is on the table for you. Thanks.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> Does anyone have anything to add to this list? To me this thread isn't the list that you send to Santa it is a working list for discussion with RGS. thanks again, macvet51 aka mike mcdonald


MIke, although i would like to see it, i think you need to delete "lobbying" from the list. i could be mistaken, but i think that the way that RGS is organized as a non-profit, that they are prohibited from lobbying.

Fritz, i wasnt aware of that one. i'll see if i can find it. but, if that's so, and i have no reason to doubt you, then we need more of the same. "you get more with a kind word and a gun than you do with just a kind word". of all the state and national forests in this state, i think the hiawatha is probably the worst, by far. it will take a lot to bring it up to snuff.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

dogwhistle said:


> MIke, although i would like to see it, i think you need to delete "lobbying" from the list. i could be mistaken, but i think that the way that RGS is organized as a non-profit, that they are prohibited from lobbying.
> 
> Fritz, i wasnt aware of that one. i'll see if i can find it. but, if that's so, and i have no reason to doubt you, then we need more of the same. "you get more with a kind word and a gun than you do with just a kind word". of all the state and national forests in this state, i think the hiawatha is probably the worst, by far. it will take a lot to bring it up to snuff.


I meant lobbying in a very generic sense. Going to NRC meetings, writing to congressmen, attending forerst review meetings. I think you're right about non profits lobbying. macvet51


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

dogwhistle said:


> nor do i think a ballot proposition will ever happen.


Nor, do we want it to. If we learned anything from the dove fiasco, the general public should not be left to decide on anything natural resource related. 
Too many uneducated people and well funded opposition.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

we'll see how many checkmarks you can put beside those items two years from now.

i wont beat a dead horse, but i plan on hunting a lot of commercial forest in the future and if that doesnt pan out, we're off to south dakota for sharptails and huns.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

dogwhistle said:


> we'll see how many checkmarks you can put beside those items two years from now.
> 
> i wont beat a dead horse, but i plan on hunting a lot of commercial forest in the future and if that doesnt pan out, we're off to south dakota for sharptails and huns.


As I look at the list I think we will see at least 3 check marks within a year. macvet51


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

BradU20 said:


> Nor, do we want it to. If we learned anything from the dove fiasco, the general public should not be left to decide on anything natural resource related.
> Too many uneducated people and well funded opposition.


Ruh-Roh! Somebody brought up dove hunting! Must... resist... soapbox... Can't do it!

Ok, I'll make it short. In my opinion, Prop 6 was not so much success by the commie-left-wacko-animal-rights-environmentalists, as much as it was a failure by the hunting community at large to band together and effectively combat their attack. If conservation groups and hunting societies continue to remain specialized and can't unite with other groups, they'll continue to beat us issue by issue.

Simply put: The public at large is not the enemy. Our own lethargy and shortsightedness are. I bet we could OVERWEALMINGLY pass a constitutional amendment in this state along the lines of:

"The right to take fish and game in accordance with limits, restrictions, and regulations as established solely by the Department of Natural Resources and approved by the director shall hereforth be protected and preserved in this state."

You'd get 80% + voting in favor of that amendment in referenum. Why? Because it's broad and general, and generally, I think hunters and non-hunters in this state support the right to hunt and recognize the importance hunting has for our economy. I'd be willing to bet that hardcore anti-hunters make up less than 20% of of our population. However, that small population of anti-hunters did outnumber the small population of dove hunters. The rest of us either didn't care or didn't see that slippery slope on the other side of the issue.

If we let the extremists continue to divide us like they did with doves (and soon will with bow hunting) and we sit back and say "that's not my sport", we'll soon find that there are no game-taking sports left to enjoy.

Alright, we're officially way off topic and I'm officially coming down off the soapbox...

For now...

KW


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> Mike,
> 
> In I think 05 or 06 - RGS brought suit against the Feds for failing to manage or carry out forest management plans on the Hiawatha National Forest in the UP - they won the law suit based on failure to provide habitat for WC a federal managed migratory bird.
> 
> I dont have time to search for it right now, but it was a big win. A Lawyer from MN donated his time to make this happen.


Fritz, i did some checking, that is incorrect. the RGS did not bring suit against anyone. the Sierra club and other groups sued the US Forest service over habitat managment in the Hiawatha Natl Forest.

the only involvement of the RGS was to join as a amicus curiae(google it). essentially it allowed the RGS to offer testimony. that involves relatively minor involvement on their part. that was dated 11/30/06 from the RGS website.


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## JTC (Jun 22, 2006)

As far as lobbying goes, i think it's important in order to counteract the lobbing being done by anti's and invironmental groups working against us. And we may already have a friend in this arena. Dennis Muchmore from Muchmore and Associates, one of the top lobbying firms in the state is also the new head of MUCC and an avid bird hunter. 

Jim


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i guess you missed the post. RGS is prohibited from lobbying due its non profit tax status. i'm sure the same is true of the MUCC.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

MUCC just released their membership numbers....40,000, which isn't enough for anyone to take seriously.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

dogwhistle said:


> i guess you missed the post. RGS is prohibited from lobbying due its non profit tax status. i'm sure the same is true of the MUCC.


I'm interested in where your information comes from. 

I'm no expert, but I did take a class in public policy last semester and my understanding is that though there are some pretty strict rules that limit the amount and type of lobbying non-profits can engage in, State and Federal laws protect the rights of non-profits to be involved in policy making. 

Simply put, lobbying is any attempt to influence legislation. Non-profits do this all the time when they endorse a piece of legislation, offer testimony at a hearing, or meet one on one with a legislator to discuss policy. Now if you're referring to lobbying as schmoozing legislators on the golf course (or in our case, maybe at a pheasant farm), I'm sure that is limited for non-profits, but that kind of lobbying is being cracked down on regardless of who is doing it.

If you're interested in the in's and out's of non-profit lobbying, this is a good resource:

http://www.mnaonline.org/pdf/PublicPolicyHandbookTEXT.pdf

KW


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## happy bird hunter (Mar 24, 2007)

Since August of 1990 the hunting dog owner has had a voice in Lansing.
It is the Michigan Hunting Dog Federation. We have acted on all dog legislation in Lansing. Just recently we we active in handing out information on HB 6395 at the woods n water outdoor show. The bill was pulled. But will be introduced again next year.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

kwernet, my information came from one of our board members and was confirmed by a friend who is a pretty highly placed attorney.

dont take my word for it though, ask the RGS themselves. how many lobbyists do you see listed on there staff-0 i believe?

Linda, i believe there are about 800,000 hunters in Michigan. 40,000 is 1/2%


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## mcanes1 (Jan 22, 2003)

After going thru the first 3 pages of this thread. I figure I might as well ask.
Does anyone have a link to the Chapter's list for Michigan? A few years ago I was on the national website and found the chapters. The new website, SUCKS :help:.

Thanks


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

"interactive areas" then "links" will give you the few(8) chapters with websites. but thats it.

if you join, you automatically become a member of the chapter in your area, whatever that's worth, and get flyers on banquets and dinners.

in my chapter, and i assume most others, there is no interaction between the membership and officers let alone the national office. there are no business meetings, no votes not even for the officers, they are just "selected".


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

dogwhistle said:


> "interactive areas" then "links" will give you the few(8) chapters with websites. but thats it.
> 
> if you join, you automatically become a member of the chapter in your area, whatever that's worth, and get flyers on banquets and dinners.
> 
> in my chapter, and i assume most others, there is no interaction between the membership and officers let alone the national office. there are no business meetings, no votes not even for the officers, they are just "selected".


My chapter's officers and banquet committe try to meet monthly. The officers are elected from and by the banquet committe. Every member is welcome at every meeting. We are working on a method of communicating with the local members in an efficient manner. Members of our committe have had contact with our Regional Director often this year as well as an RGS biologist and CEO Mike Zagata. I personally have found the paid employees of RGS very available. Thanks macvet51 mike mcdonald


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> "interactive areas" then "links" will give you the few(8) chapters with websites. but thats it.
> 
> if you join, you automatically become a member of the chapter in your area, whatever that's worth, and get flyers on banquets and dinners.
> 
> in my chapter, and i assume most others, there is no interaction between the membership and officers let alone the national office. there are no business meetings, no votes not even for the officers, they are just "selected".


 
In "My" chapter we have piles of interaction between the brass and the membership. We had close to 80 RGS Members at a May Event, run a both for four days at the local Sportsman Show. We run the shotgun both at the largest Hunters Safety Class in the state. 

Our Brass elect officers at a meeting in January via vote, we meet about 15 X a year, the only months we dont meet are October and November due to hunting season. Any and all members are welcome to attend the meetings, we are actively looking for and recruiting new members who want to be active.

Our Chapter is also active in other chapters activities and vise versa.

Do we need to improve on our communication still, yes, but we are working on it. Most of us have full time jobs, family, dogs at the same time.


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## anon21511 (Jan 13, 2006)

Finding one's chapter is not very user friendly. I'm coming up on my third year renewal, and have yet to get ANY contact with my chapter. I sent an e-mail to the contact on the RGS site, and will say that the next day, I had an answer and apology. It's just confusing that an organization that relies on membership money, banquet money, and other events wouldn't know when they have gained a new member, and let them know with invitations to every occasion. I will say that I am happy with the response I did recieve, just not that I finally had to let someone know.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> Linda, i believe there are about 800,000 hunters in Michigan. 40,000 is 1/2%


Mike, that's actually 5%.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

5% is correct. oh well, i cant be right all the time.<G>

for the RGS officers, reading your posts, it's apparent that your procdures are the same as our chapters. members never elect anyone. we have one banquet and two dinners a year. banquets are all pretty much alike. but the dinners are just a social, dinner, a speaker or maybe two and then go home.

business is never discussed with the general membership. motions are never made and voted on. we only ask for volunteers for fundraising or some announcements of activities. we are supposed to be a habitat organization but the subject seems to be taboo.

i think it's just a social organization with a thin veneer of "helping the habitat" to give it some status and to justify it's non profit status. for twenty five bucks a year, i get a little sticker for my dog box and the right to attend two dinners and a banquet and shoot the breeze with some guys. we raise tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of dollars, but noone knows where it goes.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Birdhuntr1 said:


> Finding one's chapter is not very user friendly. I'm coming up on my third year renewal, and have yet to get ANY contact with my chapter. I sent an e-mail to the contact on the RGS site, and will say that the next day, I had an answer and apology. It's just confusing that an organization that relies on membership money, banquet money, and other events wouldn't know when they have gained a new member, and let them know with invitations to every occasion. I will say that I am happy with the response I did recieve, just not that I finally had to let someone know.


We do a news letter mailing some time in Feb each year, it details all the events the chapter will be putting on or taking part in for the year, it also covers the chapter brass with phone numbers and email address.


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## anon21511 (Jan 13, 2006)

Steelhead-I didn't get one of those in the last two years either. I do know now that I'm a member of the Grand Rapids chapter, and will see if I get anything from them. I'm sure I'm an isolated case, so I'll give them one more year.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Birdhuntr1 said:


> Steelhead-I didn't get one of those in the last two years either. I do know now that I'm a member of the Grand Rapids chapter, and will see if I get anything from them. I'm sure I'm an isolated case, so I'll give them one more year.


 
The GR Chapter might not send a news letter, I am not sure....

Shoot me a PM and I can get you in contact with a couple of the folks that work with that Chapter.

fritz


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Any contact you have with a chapter is generated thru the National office via your zipcode for the most part.
i.e. banquets, fun shoots, dog trials, etc.
Of course a few exceptions have been mentioned above by chapters taking the lead and being proactive in fixing this HUGE weakness within RGS.
I'm told it is getting better for what that's worth.


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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

so what do you do for RGS? how have you helped the cause? I am pretty new to this site and RGS. I became the area president, and with the help of the other board members create a news letter to the membership that RGS prints and sends out. in it I ask for Ideas and help. I let the members know how to reach me and other board members, what we are doing when and where. I invite them to all come and join us , to bring there ideas, help the programs and devolope new ones. when they go to the banquet they are there to have a good time . not a lecture. maybe a recap. some highlights. guess what. the membership does not show up to the work meetings. I could elect several of them at random, say put some names in the news letter and let the members vote:lol: or I can keep inviting them to fun things and recruite them from there. its the best game in town and I am helping to make it better. are you? join us in January at the work shop. help RGS make it to the future and be the group you dream of. if your chapter is not doing what you think they should volenter to do it. and stop griping about what you wont do your self and kicking those that try and help in any way:corkysm55


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i resent the terrm "griping". that kind of attitude has no place with someone who chooses to assume a leadership role.

the miission of the RGS is stated on it's website. one part is the establishment of habitat and the other is education of hunters and the general public.

i've made my contributions in time, money and goods. i'm not "'griping" i'm critical because neither of those goals are being reached,, on the contrary. in Michigan our grouse habitat is shrinking every year even though hunters are pouring 40 million dollars into the dnr cofffers each year. and at best the education program is some information on the website. we dont reach out even to hunters at outdoor shows to inform them about the often misunderstood clearcutting of aspen.

the RGS is a national organization, which i think is a good structure for a fairly small group of people that hunt grouse and woodcock. so therefore most of the money flows to the national headquarters and it is there that programs and policies should originate.

but we measure success by results, nothing else. there is no A for efffort, forr hours spent or money raised. and there are very few positive results. we've added our names to a couple lawsuits, endorsed a woodcock stamp that will create maybe 500 acres of habitat per state at best. mostly we raise money in order to have "fun" raising more money. we have a lot more gun giveaways and auctions than we do habitat programs.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

dogwhistle said:


> i resent the terrm "griping". that kind of attitude has no place with someone who chooses to assume a leadership role.
> 
> the miission of the RGS is stated on it's website. one part is the establishment of habitat and the other is education of hunters and the general public.
> 
> ...


Sorry dogwhistle, that sounds like griping to me. macvet51


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> .... mostly we raise money in order to have "fun" raising more money. we have a lot more gun giveaways and auctions than we do habitat programs.


 I certainly do not share your pessimism for the state of grouse hunting future in our state but I cannot disagree with the above quote.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

gripers are those that set on the sidelines and complain. i've made my contributions.

but here is the bottom line, an organization that cannot fund essential employees from it's annual reciepts and has to beg for contributions from corporations has some very fundemental problems.

and an organization that is primarily funded by it's members contribution and work but never gives an annual accounting, may have a reason for not doing so. corporations provide that information to their stockholders. if they want me to contribute money and time this year, first tell me what you did with the money and time i contributed last year.

and finally, why hold buisness meetings- committee meetings in secret? why not invite and notify the general membership and allow them to speak and put issues on the agenda.

if you want people to be involved let them become involved, beyond buying tickets to a banquet or a raffle.

leadership is an ability as rare as playing the piano well or making a gun. and it's as much an art. snide remarks have no place in it. and leaders must be able to accept criticism without hostility. merely being elected or promoted is not suffecient qualification.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> gripers are those that set on the sidelines and complain. i've made my contributions.
> 
> but here is the bottom line, an organization that cannot fund essential employees from it's annual reciepts and has to beg for contributions from corporations has some very fundemental problems.
> 
> ...


 
Mike,

I dont speak for your Chapter, but in my chapter we schedule the meetings a year in advance, publish the dates of the meetings. We hold them on various days at various times. They are open to any and all that want to attend, hell we would be happy to have them, but I have to recruit people, I dont have to turn them away. We were really lucky this year, Matt Mates and I were able to get Mark Stephens and Del Whitman to become more active, both play instrumental roles in the growth and success our chapter had over the past year.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

No secrets in the Ann Arbor Chapter. We meet the first Tuesday of every month (PF meets the 1st Monday). Notifications are sent out well in advance to all members we have emails for. The meeting minutes then go out a few days later. Anyone is welcome to show up....few actually do. The most people we had at a meeting was 10, once, and that included 2 guys from a neighboring chapter that wanted to get a feel for our group. Basically there are 6 of us that meet consistently. 

Discussion of this thread is on the agenda for Tues night....we'll see what the others have to say.
​


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## [email protected] (Mar 19, 2008)

Well put, Brad. 

We at the Tri-County chapter welcome anyone whether you're from our chapter or not to attend our meetings. If you are interested please email me for more info and directions at: [email protected] -- substitute "net" for the xxx (avoiding robo-spammers). 

Our next meeting is Tuesday, Dec. 2nd at 6:30pm.



Dana Farrell


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

for those chapters that hold regular business meetings that are open to the general membership- Good for you.

it took me many years to figure out how we "elected" officers. at our most recent dinner, our new president never spoke a word. our previous president, now the secretary, did all the work.?

it's the lansing chapter, lot of dnr guys. they are pretty cliquey.

maybe i should start going to the traverse city meetings. long drive, but it's a nice town. there's a lot of nice guys in our chapter, dont get me wrong. i met and made friends with "find the bird" and his wife at a meeting. but, i went out of my way, invited him to bring his dog over for some training and a friendship blossomed.

here's a positive suggestion. a few years ago, i brought a friend who founded and was the first president of our chapter as a guest and met a lot of our oldest members. but generally i dont see anyone going out of their way when new members show up. an officer should take them in hand and circle the room introducing them to as many people as possible. not everyone is outgoing enough to do it for themselves.

if you guys already do this, again, good for you.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

dogwhistle said:


> it's the lansing chapter, lot of dnr guys. they are pretty cliquey.


Well Mike, there are several of us Lansing Chapter members who are active on this board. Maybe we need to form a new clique!

KW


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## [email protected] (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't belong to the Lansing chapter (I'm with the Tri-County in A2) but attended their last Fun Trial and invited one of their members to hunt with me this past fall near my place on Houghton Lk. I also have attended one of their sporting clays shoots at Capital Area gun club and ran into several of them while attending the RAM center get-together last January. They seem to have a great local organization happening and I envy their close ties to Lansing (i.e. Al Stewart). LeMaster's Setters Rest kennel - the site of their fun trial - is a gem of a place to hold a trial and I tip my hat to them for all their hard work and the high level of participation they donate to our cause. 

I'm probably preaching to the choir here -- I'm relatively new to the forum and you guys are probably way more familiar with the goings-on of all the Michigan chapters than I am. None the less, I'm impressed with what I've seen so far of their chapter.

Dana Farrell


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## Rudi's Dad (May 4, 2004)

I cant even begin to compare PF to RGS. PF is private landowner based and RGS for most of us is going to have to impact State, Federal or CFA lands.
What RGS does is lobby, and be a party to court actions that may have a impact on HABITAT. We need to educate other sportsmen on the benefits of Clear Cutting. 
As for work with private landowners, how many of you get to hunt on private land that had been impacted by RGS money. (Not many?)
So we need members, fund raisers(banquets), and send informed folks to lobby, and to participate in court actions. Perhaps a movie/slide presentation or INTERNET site to send folks to get the picture on how our view of habitat works. 
Thats my over simplified thoughts on RGS.
They are the only folks who support habitat work that helps Grouse and Woodcock. By the way, it don't hurt to mention Woodcock and Deer/rabbits and other critters benefited by early successional forest (regrowth after clearcut).


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> Well Mike, there are several of us Lansing Chapter members who are active on this board. Maybe we need to form a new clique!
> 
> KW


actually, i'd rather see no cliques and people, especially board members and officers going out of the way to show hospitalitly to new members.

i probably know you on sight, and i suspect you might be friends with find the bird. possibly we can meet more formally at the spring dinner.

Mike


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

Rudi's Dad said:


> I cant even begin to compare PF to RGS. PF is private landowner based and RGS for most of us is going to have to impact State, Federal or CFA lands.
> What RGS does is lobby, and be a party to court actions that may have a impact on HABITAT. We need to educate other sportsmen on the benefits of Clear Cutting.
> As for work with private landowners, how many of you get to hunt on private land that had been impacted by RGS money. (Not many?)
> So we need members, fund raisers(banquets), and send informed folks to lobby, and to participate in court actions. Perhaps a movie/slide presentation or INTERNET site to send folks to get the picture on how our view of habitat works.
> ...


RGS and PF do have quite different playing fields, pulbic forests vs privately owned farmland. so their MO is somewhat different.

however, the RGS does not and cannot lobby. as, i mentioned before, if you dont wish to take my word for it, ask them directly.

and their involvement in lawsuits has been quite minimal. they did enter a couple suits as amicus curariae. essentialy offering testimony, much different than spending the large amount of money and time to defend a suit.

i have no idea what they actually spend their revenue on. you would think there would be a year end accounting on their website in a pdf file. the Drummer newsletter used to at least show revenue from various banquets but that has been dropped for some time.

i do know that they cant even fund a biologist for this region- maybe 75K a year or less. he doesnt lobby but should attend compartment reviews and similiar functions to present our view. now they are down to asking corporations for 5 milllion for an endowment fund for biologists. which seems an overly ambitious project considering the state of the economy.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I don't belong to the Lansing chapter (I'm with the Tri-County in A2) but attended their last Fun Trial and invited one of their members to hunt with me this past fall near my place on Houghton Lk. I also have attended one of their sporting clays shoots at Capital Area gun club and ran into several of them while attending the RAM center get-together last January. They seem to have a great local organization happening and I envy their close ties to Lansing (i.e. Al Stewart). LeMaster's Setters Rest kennel - the site of their fun trial - is a gem of a place to hold a trial and I tip my hat to them for all their hard work and the high level of participation they donate to our cause.
> 
> I'm probably preaching to the choir here -- I'm relatively new to the forum and you guys are probably way more familiar with the goings-on of all the Michigan chapters than I am. None the less, I'm impressed with what I've seen so far of their chapter.
> 
> Dana Farrell


Dana, we met at the fun trial (guy with the two pointers) and hope to see you at future chapter gatherings. I've really enjoyed my involvement with the organization, but as DW mentioned, there's some room for improvement.
(By the way, I hope that you got Bill M. off the two-tracks and made him work for his birds!:lol



dogwhistle said:


> i probably know you on sight, and i suspect you might be friends with find the bird. possibly we can meet more formally at the spring dinner.
> Mike


Yep, I know K9, but be advised, he's the type of guy who drinks heavily before hitting each cover, then falls down a lot and also blames his lousy shooting on the weather, his dogs, the phase of the moon or whatever else he can!
(Just kidding:evil.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

Mike, i could probably learn something from him. i dont have anything to blame my lousy shooting on.

By the way guys, find the bird brought his 6 month old pointer pup over this morning for a short run. out of minards wrangler female. that is one class pointer. he looks like class standing still staring down the horses, runs with a nice long flowing stride and has that nice bold outgoing temperment that we all value. i grew up as a "setter guy" and and am very happy with the ones i own, but that's the kind of pointer that could change my mind. better watch out as he's making noises about am. grouse trialing. this would be the dog to start with.

i like to say something positive now and then, keeps you all off balance. good cop/bad cop.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> Mike, i could probably learn something from him. i dont have anything to blame my lousy shooting on.
> 
> By the way guys, find the bird brought his 6 month old pointer pup over this morning for a short run. out of minards wrangler female. that is one class pointer. he looks like class standing still staring down the horses, runs with a nice long flowing stride and has that nice bold outgoing temperment that we all value. i grew up as a "setter guy" and and am very happy with the ones i own, but that's the kind of pointer that could change my mind. better watch out as he's making noises about am. grouse trialing. this would be the dog to start with.
> 
> i like to say something positive now and then, keeps you all off balance. good cop/bad cop.


I really don't have an excuse for my despicable shooting either.:rant:

Thanks for the kind words on Rock. I hate to count my chickens before they're fully hatched, but he's done some extremely cool things at a very young age and if he continues to develop (and I can manage not to mess him up) I may have a very good dog on my hands.

Case in point is the prettiest bump that I've ever seen. 
When Rock was about 4.5-5 months of age I planted the last pigeon for him (au natural: not in a launcher). After I turned him loose, Rock happened to barrel in full-speed from the upwind direction and ran over the bird. As he was over the bird, it appeared that he realized what he had done, and spun 180 degrees mid-stride just beyond the bird so that he was now facing the bird. His momementum actually caused him to skid backward several feet but as he slid to a stop, he fell into a solid point. At that moment, the bird woke-up and began walking around fully visible to Rock who remained totally locked in a very classy point. He didn't move until the bird finally took flight about 10 seconds later. 
For a mature dog, I wouldn't consider this all that earth shattering, but in my opinion, it was a very cool and unusual thing to see in a pup that young.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

dogwhistle said:


> actually, i'd rather see no cliques and people, especially board members and officers going out of the way to show hospitalitly to new members.
> 
> i probably know you on sight, and i suspect you might be friends with find the bird. possibly we can meet more formally at the spring dinner.
> 
> Mike


As a new member of the RGS I have to ask the stupid question, how does one get details and/or notified about the Spring dinner? If possible, I plan to be there.



FindTheBird said:


> I really don't have an excuse for my despicable shooting either.:rant:
> 
> Thanks for the kind words on Rock. I hate to count my chickens before they're fully hatched, but he's done some extremely cool things at a very young age and if he continues to develop (and I can manage not to mess him up) I may have a very good dog on my hands.
> 
> ...


That dog is something else.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> As a new member of the RGS I have to ask the stupid question, how does one get details and/or notified about the Spring dinner? If possible, I plan to be there.


Excellent! I manage the web site (aargs.org) and haven't received any information yet but I'll post it as soon as I get it. Normally it's in April and will most likely be at the Eagle Eye Banquet Center in Bath. You should get a flyer in the mail when they establish the date.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

you should get a flyer in the mail. also it might be posted under chapter activities on the national website. also it will probably be posted on the andy ammann website www.aargs.org. i believe it's in april? and they have been holding them lately at the Hawk Hollow clubhouse on Chandler Rd in Dewitt.

Mikes pup is a quality dog and more importantly he has the right attitude. too often, novice dog owners want to overtrain their dogs. obedience training and drilling. a birddog just needs to learn a few manners; no, come, kennel for a pup/young dog. and if you keep repeating and drilling, eventually the pup will make mistakes. now he is learning to make mistakes.

this pup has all the instincts anyone could want. let him learn from himself. later on we can add refinements such as whoa, backing and steady to w/s.

this will be a big running pup. he has desire and the mechanics to get out there and look for birds. but rather than "making" him stay closer and reeling him in, i'll show mike a way for the dog to teach himself to stay in touch.

lessons we learn ourselves have more effect than those that are taught to us. the same is true with animals.

start with the highest quality you can get your hands on, "make it easy to do the right thing and hard to do the wrong thing" and as bill tarrant used to say "dont teach a dog anything he doesnt need to know". that's my philosophy.


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## tamaracktel[email protected] (Mar 19, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> Dana, we met at the fun trial (guy with the two pointers) and hope to see you at future chapter gatherings. I've really enjoyed my involvement with the organization, but as DW mentioned, there's some room for improvement.
> (By the way, I hope that you got Bill M. off the two-tracks and made him work for his birds!:lol
> 
> 
> ...


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

The Tri-County (Ann Arbor) Chapter meeting went very well last night. Doug was there and answered a lot of questions on this very discussion. We will be discussing a lot of these issues at the workshop in January. We set a date for our dog trial, made some progress on banquet plans and might have even recruited a new member.


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