# Grouse Pointing What do you prefer?



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> i think staunchness is a #1 priority.
> 
> i doubt that your dog has a "better nose", he just uses it better.
> 
> ...


What do you think about that as a general rule of thumb? I've seen it happen before but, not very often. I think most of the time the dog just bumps that bird. I too agree that the dog needs to be staunch until I release. I do think my pointer has a better nose. I've seen her in fields hit first scent much further out than my shorthairs, not sure if this is breed specific or not though.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> What do you think about that as a general rule of thumb? I've seen it happen before but, not very often. I think most of the time the dog just bumps that bird. I too agree that the dog needs to be staunch until I release. I do think my pointer has a better nose. I've seen her in fields hit first scent much further out than my shorthairs, not sure if this is breed specific or not though.


what do i think about relocating? if it's a woodcock it can be done by a cautious dog. a grouse is more likelly to flush. you really have to do the mexican hat dance for a dog that doesnt point right at the bird but points a more general area from a distance.

reading ability isnt dependent on good eyesight and scenting ability isnt dependent on a good nose. the us CUSTOMS gets dope dogs etc from the pound. they all have good noses yours instinctively uses it better and points sooner when it scents the bird. i think its genetic. you dont win field trials by bumping birds. so dogs that point well and from a distance are selected for in breeding programs. i think they will tend to be more higher headed dogs that wind game than those that track with their nose to the ground.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> what do i think about relocating? if it's a woodcock it can be done by a cautious dog. a grouse is more likelly to flush. you really have to do the mexican hat dance for a dog that doesnt point right at the bird but points a more general area from a distance.
> 
> reading ability isnt dependent on good eyesight and scenting ability isnt dependent on a good nose. the us CUSTOMS gets dope dogs etc from the pound. they all have good noses yours instinctively uses it better and points sooner when it scents the bird. i think its genetic. you dont win field trials by bumping birds. so dogs that point well and from a distance are selected for in breeding programs. i think they will tend to be more higher headed dogs that wind game than those that track with their nose to the ground.


My answer has changed from a year or 2 ago. I also think it depends on the dog. My dogs handle running woodcock like a champ, not so much on running grouse. The problem is I used to be more of a woodcock hunter and grouse were kinda lucky chances. Now I would say I am more of a grouse hunter and go after them and their habitats more specifically. I probably flushed at 2 to 3 times more grouse this year than woodcock and in the past it would have been just the opposite.

So, to answer your question. I am going to make my dogs completely stop at first scent. They are almost slip proof steady to wing and shot so, I can't imagine it would be too tough.

The puppy, I am going to let her learn on her own and see how she developes. If she stays the way she is right now that would be fine if she turns into a good relocater that would be fine too. I have given up a ton of shooting opportunities this year to put the puppy into a bunch of birds. I am hoping that it will pay dividends next year.


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## Bingo boy (Oct 20, 2009)

I train all my dogs and clients to stop on first scent. 
Their job is to point. 
Once they get their legs under them for handling birds , I can tell when the dog is on a scent bird , or if he is totally locked and ready for the gun. (which means I incourage them to relocate with my assistance)
Running birds is a huge issue of course. 
I try to stay abreast with the dog while they work closer and depending on terrian will determine which side to be on for a better shot , I try to be about 10 yards or more to the side of the dog. 
As in a pie - I can cover 2/3's with a shot , but that other side if the flush is out and wide = no shot. 
My middle dog is a great grouse dog IMO. Locks on the slightest of scent , but when hunting out west , he'll point phez from unconscious distances , and I am constantly urging him to work the scent to the bird. 
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About 15 years ago , hunted behind a GSP which had several thousand points over his 10 years of life. No formal training  and was a headache. But the dog learned with countless hours in the woods how to handle birds , and would relocate them , by running around them and stopping them in their tracks for us to walk up on for a shot. 
(he was a dog I learned a lot of do's and don't from)


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## lazy8man (Mar 22, 2008)

So we are hunting ol' choke nose and we get a point. Wind is in his face. He is known (trained) to stop at first slight wiff of grouse scent. We are in an aspen clearcut things are fairly homogenous but there is a stump here, witchhazel clump there, gray dogwood here maybe a blowdown. Terrain is at least moderatley flat with a roll here or there. Nothing to make you out of breath. It is familiar to us all.

TIME:
How long are you going to stomp and walk around? (give us a reference in minutes) What is a long time to find one? What is average? 

AREA:
How far are you going to go to the front and sides? (give us a reference in yards). What is a long ways to go? What distance are you expecting or averaging?

Do you walk a set pattern or do you look for objectives or wander around.

I am talking generalities here. I know there are lots of factors but give me (and everyone reading this thread with great interest) some numbers.

Except for a few here, most of us really have limited experience in seeing other dogs, GOOD dogs work wild grouse in hunting situations.
I think this is a great opportunity for us all. Please be descriptive.

Chad


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

Admittedly haven't read every reply but a cursory reading seems to indicate that most respondents have naively ignored the single most important facet of this scenario - the bird. Think about it. Ultimately it is the bird that is the determining factor in all of this - not the dog. Instead of having a preference for a dog that does this or that I rather prefer a bird that holds for a point regardless of when the dog becomes aware of the bird and holds while I can walk in and flush it at a distance that provides for a reasonable shot. Again - the bird is the final determinent of whether to run, hold, flush close, flush far, flush noisily, flush silently, flush from the ground or from a tree.

The dog really has not a whole lot of say in it.


Hoppe's no.10


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I think a dog that is steady(broke)to wing and shot you will find doesn't have as much problem with relocation. Dogs that want to creep usually are much better retrievers and want to get closer to the bird so they can retrieve faster. They took Hunter to a preserve the other day and shot 50 pheasant over him. He was not allowed to move or retrieve. For myself I'm happy with a dog that's steady and will points dead. I believe in the long run I will get more an better shots from a steady dog than a creeper that retrieves better. I was told by a very good trainer(cover dog)never let a young dog catch or retrieve a bird. We all know they love the smell so they want the taste also. Once they get the taste they are harder to break. Think about.


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## bevrpndhntr (Sep 25, 2009)

This is good stuff!! This was my young labs first hunting season. First time out she points a woodcock! I was in shock....I had no idea what to do! She has gone on to point both woodcock and grouse. I really like the pointing thing and want to learn how to get her to use it correctly. She is a retriever so she does retreive the birds. 

I like this thread because it helps me understand what is expected of the dog on point....this pointing stuff is all new to me (but I really like it)!


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## Quig7557 (Dec 31, 2008)

I prefer a dog that gets close enough to the bird for it to be there when going in to flush. Yes she does bump some birds, thats grouse hunting. They have the nose and can learn how to handle the bird.

I had a E setter point from so far out that you would have 50 yards of cover to stomp through before you would find a bird. That go to be frustrating. I believe the bird didn't really know it was pointed and just walked on out.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> I think a dog that is steady(broke)to wing and shot you will find doesn't have as much problem with relocation. Dogs that want to creep usually are much better retrievers and want to get closer to the bird so they can retrieve faster. They took Hunter to a preserve the other day and shot 50 pheasant over him. He was not allowed to move or retrieve. For myself I'm happy with a dog that's steady and will points dead. I believe in the long run I will get more an better shots from a steady dog than a creeper that retrieves better. I was told by a very good trainer(cover dog)never let a young dog catch or retrieve a bird. We all know they love the smell so they want the taste also. Once they get the taste they are harder to break. Think about.


that trainer gave you good advice.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

lazy8man said:


> So we are hunting ol' choke nose and we get a point. Wind is in his face. He is known (trained) to stop at first slight wiff of grouse scent. We are in an aspen clearcut things are fairly homogenous but there is a stump here, witchhazel clump there, gray dogwood here maybe a blowdown. Terrain is at least moderatley flat with a roll here or there. Nothing to make you out of breath. It is familiar to us all.
> 
> TIME:
> How long are you going to stomp and walk around? (give us a reference in minutes) What is a long time to find one? What is average?
> ...


it's impossible to give an answer in feet and minutes. if you release the dog and a grouse flushes, you didnt go far or long enough.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I prefer my dogs not point. If they do I ask them not to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lazy8man (Mar 22, 2008)

I was really looking forward to some information here. But there was none. Thanks dogwhistle for replying while everyone else hedged. Although I think you can answer my question.

When I read back through this thread everyone says "first scent". "First scent" to me implies any fresh scent of grouse.

It has also mostly been stated that the prefered dog not relocate on its own.

I would like you to share how that works. By that I mean you have a dog that will stop at first scent and not move until commanded. There has been talk of a strong flush attempt.

Dogwhistle says if you don't go (stomp, walk around) until you flush a grouse it is not long enough. On the other hand if my dog goes on point 5 minutes out of the truck am I going to walk around until I flush something? That could be awhile and I might be 100yds from my dog when I do. That can not be normal procedure, is it?

There must be a point and a distance you will walk/stomp when you say " I'm going to let him (dog) move." and release him. What is that? Base it on my earlier scenario? Yards and minutes.

I know what my approximate distances(area) and times are based on my dog. Everyone else has too also. I want to walk in and have a bird go right up, but there is a point that I will stop looking and let her move if nothing happens. I don't keep walking and stomping until I reach the mackinac bridge and/or it gets dark.

I will be specific and ask for input from Bingoboy, wormdunker, Bigsp, dogwhistle, and findthebird. I do not know any of you personally. Just your reputations on this forum. Please don't take my directness as hostility. I just want to know. If we were face to face i would trade you for a beer.

Chad


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> I think a dog that is steady(broke)to wing and shot you will find doesn't have as much problem with relocation. Dogs that want to creep usually are much better retrievers and want to get closer to the bird so they can retrieve faster. They took Hunter to a preserve the other day and shot 50 pheasant over him. He was not allowed to move or retrieve. For myself I'm happy with a dog that's steady and will points dead. I believe in the long run I will get more an better shots from a steady dog than a creeper that retrieves better. I was told by a very good trainer(cover dog)never let a young dog catch or retrieve a bird. We all know they love the smell so they want the taste also. Once they get the taste they are harder to break. Think about.


Terry,

I was told about the same thing. That a dog should only be allowed to retrieve if it's force broke. That way it's a command not just a pleasure. I think what yo said is absolute gospel truth.


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## SoggyPaws (Jun 10, 2009)

My setter will point on first scent and then creep and relocate as needed and she works very good. Seldom will bump the bird. I like how she handles herself.

My GSP I just want to lock up and hold. He is still young and really full of it so if he repositions either by my command or his own instinct, he moves too fast and often will bump the bird. He does nothing slow or easy. He's the kind of jump first, see where you are jumping later dog that I am sure will cost me much in vet bills. :lol:


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

lazy8man said:


> I was really looking forward to some information here. But there was none. Thanks dogwhistle for replying while everyone else hedged. Although I think you can answer my question.
> 
> When I read back through this thread everyone says "first scent". "First scent" to me implies any fresh scent of grouse.
> 
> ...


Chad it's hard to say yards, minutes etc. make a strong flushing attempt and then release the dog. A good dog will then go on an hopefully repoint the bird, usually grouse are pretty jumpy so, typically you'll get a flush within the area.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

lazy8man said:


> I was really looking forward to some information here. But there was none.
> 
> Chad


I think if you really read what is being said, and had more time in the field (no offense intended) you would see that a lot if information has been given. There is no real cut and dry answers to your questions, it is all very situational. Here are a couple extreme examples. 

Pup is pushing through some tough cover, lots of ground clutter, he crosses a scent cone 5-10 feet away from the bird and slams on point. The cover is such that the bird feels safe and holds till the gunner arrives. Gunner steps in and the bird flushes right in front of the point. 

Pup is casting in some fairly open cover, crosses a scent cone at 40 yards from the bird and slams onto point, the cover is sparse and the bird gets nervous and sprints ahead another 50 yards into a tangled mess. The bird is now 90 yards from the pointing dog by the time the gunner arrives. This is where opinions may differ, some want the pup to self relocate when the bird bolts, or when the gunner arrives and some want to tell the pup when to relocate, it is all personal preference.

Now that is just two examples, I had lot of grouse pointed this year, and I'd bet that there were not 2 that were the same. I had grouse flush inches off the dogs sniffer and grouse that would bust 80 yards from the pooch. So to ask for specific distances and times just isn't real. Every grouse contact is different. A good dog is one that can adapt to each bird and handle them well most of the time.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

lazy8man said:


> So we are hunting ol' choke nose and we get a point. Wind is in his face. He is known (trained) to stop at first slight wiff of grouse scent. We are in an aspen clearcut things are fairly homogenous but there is a stump here, witchhazel clump there, gray dogwood here maybe a blowdown. Terrain is at least moderatley flat with a roll here or there. Nothing to make you out of breath. It is familiar to us all.
> 
> TIME:
> How long are you going to stomp and walk around? (give us a reference in minutes) What is a long time to find one? What is average?
> ...


Time: very little. Never more than 10, 20 maybe 30 seconds would be a very long attempt.
I release the dog and want him on the move tracking that bird as soon as possible. If that grouse gets its safety envelope established again it will flush when it feels safe. The idea is to not let the grouse feel safe, keep a little pressure on it so it feels it has to move from objective to objective until it holds. Then when the dog stops on it again you can flush and kill it.

Area: Is pretty small, I take into account what direction I think the dog was moving in from when it stopped. I always think the bird is moving in that same direction i.e. moving away from the newly encountered threat(dog) I usually end up coming in from the dogs 4 o'clock or 8 o' clock. Make a quick flush attempt moving toward the most obvious ground cover(hiding spot) quickly moving ahead of the dog for maybe 10 yards or if cover dictates 20 yards tops, wheel back into the dogs nose and walk back at him if nothing pops. Then I ask him to move if he hasn't already taken up the chase. If he won't move the bird is sitting really tight right in front of him.

This all takes a great deal of experience and exposure on both the hunters part and the dogs.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Now that makes sense. Completely situational.

The point about not letting a dog do a "natural retrieve" is also well taken. I had not thought about it like that. I now understand why to force fetch train a dog with a natural retrieve. Then he's working for me, not himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I don't explain things well but here goes. It's hard to give a time or distance for relocate. I'm down to two setters that hunt. Both come from some what the same breeding and both are different as night and day. Jake my older setter is heavy footed slower and will try to get closer than he should because he has been allowed to. He will self locate and usually does a good job because he has done it long enough he has figured out just how close is to close(this comes from being around a lot of grouse) and I'm slow at getting to him on point. Hunter up till this fall has been with the best setter trainers(in my opinion) so he hasn't had the chance to learn bad habits. Until he comes off the trial circuit he will not be allowed to retrieve. I bought him with the intentions of trialing only. He is blistering fast, light on his feet and can take your breath away watching him go down through grouse cover. He won't be three till the end of January but he has already seen plenty of grouse and woodcock. He has been hunted(worked grouse) in Mi. Pa. N.H. N.Y. WI. R.I and even Ky but that was quail. Here is what I have learned from setters. Praise them when they due good. Move on and don't shoot when they screw up. I still say you can't teach a dog to hunt but he can learn what makes you happy because that will make him happy. Good luck


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

As far as the original question goes...

It really doesn't matter to me "how" they pointed the bird as long as they did.

Brian.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Unregistered4 said:


> As far as the original question goes...
> 
> It really doesn't matter to me "how" they pointed the bird as long as they did.
> 
> Brian.


 Thank you for that enlightening contribution to this thread.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> I'm just back from a grouse weekend. Each day was very productive in terms of birds. We had 9 dogs of various sizes, colors, and varieties. All worked birds differently. Some were more effective than others generally speaking but each situation is so different that it's difficult to generalize. Wind, cover, humidity, hunter pressure, hunters (very different experience levels), noise, etc. all contribute to the actions of birds. But in the end, I heard/saw over 140 grouse in 3 days and each one was different - each situation was different. Mistakes were made by dog, bird, and man.


140 grouse divided by 3 days is 47 birds per day average.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> 140 grouse divided by 3 days is 47 birds per day average.


 Don't ask him how many road home in the icebox.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Don't ask him how many road home in the icebox.


Obviously no more than 10, right?

KW


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> Obviously no more than 10, right?
> 
> KW


Probably so knowing Dave but don't forget the other gunners riding in his rig.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

dogwhistle said:


> 140 grouse divided by 3 days is 47 birds per day average.


 
And......? 

Two days were 50ish, one was 40 birds. 4-6 covers per day with 8-10 in each spot. Is this a problem?

I'm having a flashback to years ago on UJ.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> And......?
> 
> Two days were 50ish, one was 40 birds. 4-6 covers per day with 8-10 in each spot. Is this a problem?
> 
> I'm having a flashback to years ago on UJ.


No issues with me! that sounds like a fantastic day(s) of hunting...


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> I just want to get everyones opinion about how they like there dogs to handle grouse................I would like to hear what others say.





Unregistered4 said:


> As far as the original question goes...
> 
> It really doesn't matter to me "how" they pointed the bird as long as they did.





2ESRGR8 said:


> Thank you for that enlightening contribution to this thread.


He asked...

I'm sorry my answer wasn't up to your standards or expectations.



Dave Medema said:


> Mistakes were made by dog, bird, and man.


This is about the only thing I've read, here, that made sense to me...

That's grouse hunting in a nutshell...it ain't science people.

Brian.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Unregistered4 said:


> That's grouse hunting in a nutshell...it ain't science people.


More wise words. 

There's certainly something to be said for continued improvement, continued learning, and new tricks; but when people start asking what to expect when they go bird hunting, I want to tell them to expect the unexpected. Seems like every time I think I've got this game figured out -- or at least figured out how to work a particular covert -- those dang birds go and change things up on me!

It's great to think and rethink your strategy. It's great to try something new. But the time you start thinking there's one right way to do things is about the same time it stops being fun.

KW


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

A little off topic, but Saturday morning I had one of the best grouse experiences of my life. Only saw three birds in a small cover I was hunting but shot my first grouse over my 18 month old, GSP. 

Gotta tell the story. I was coming off a ridge, about to cross an old 2 track and head up another ridge that has a lot of blowdowns from fire and straight line winds. Jessie went on point as I hit the two track and before I could get there to flush a grouse came flying out with a perfect crossing shot over the wide open trail. My shooting has been horrible this year but I hit it with the first shot but it kept on going. My second shot killed it in the air and I was pretty happy about what had just happened. I called Jessie over to retrieve but she was still working the area of the first flush. Just as I looked over, here comes grouse #2 with the exact same shot. Well in my initial state of euphoria, I never re-loaded and watched it sail over my head to another clearcut about 100 yds away. We'll get him next year or in December. After the initial kill she had a couple of unproductive points and another nice find that I couldn't get a shot on. I don't know what it is, but it seems after the woodies go I always see a lot of grouse. Hopefully the snow won't be that bad this December. 

Saw 9 grouse on Saturday and 2 on Sunday, but didn't put in as much time as a normal weekend. 

Anyways to get back to topic, I love how my 6 year old GSP handles grouse. He'll go on point and if he doesn't think the bird is there, will break and work the bird when I get there. He'll stay on point until I'm close enough to let him go. I generally won't "whoa" him unless I'm pretty sure a bird is fairly close to him. Sunday morning he went on point and I just let him go. He worked a running bird for about 50 yards. I stayed on a two-track that he was parrelelling and the bird ran right to it before busting. Another wide open shot that I completely missed but the dog worked it perfect. He's completely "whoa broke", but I've come to trust him and let him work a running bird. More often than not, he'll pin them down before they get a chance to bust.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> And......?
> 
> Two days were 50ish, one was 40 birds. 4-6 covers per day with 8-10 in each spot. Is this a problem?
> 
> I'm having a flashback to years ago on UJ.


I know it's at minimum quintuple over the average, but in the context of the situation, I think it's doable.
I think it can be done if all of the following are true:
1. 3-5 hunters on the ground at the same time, all day.
2. 3-5 reasonably good dogs on the ground at the same time, rotated throughout the day, all day.
3. Only hit the "A+" to "B" covers ignoring all "C" covers or below. 
4. Per #3, must have access to a good quantity of A+ to B covers.
5. Must be willing put in full days and willing to cover some acreage.

Admittedly, I usually fail by a clear margin on every count, so a 15-18 bird (grouse) day is superb for me.

Congrats on a great weekend Dave!


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

augustus0603 said:


> A little off topic, but Saturday morning I had one of the best grouse experiences of my life. Only saw three birds in a small cover I was hunting but shot my first grouse over my 18 month old, GSP....


Definitely a hunt to cherish and remember. Congrats, and here's to many more!


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> I know it's at minimum quintuple over the average, but in the context of the situation, I think it's doable.
> I think it can be done if all of the following are true:
> 1. 3-5 hunters on the ground at the same time, all day.
> 2. 3-5 reasonably good dogs on the ground at the same time, rotated throughout the day, all day.
> ...


Keep in mind that Dave is a seasoned hunter who can probably read cover from the road like most of us can read a newspaper. Couple that with hitting the best cover within the cover and moving from spot to spot and I can see those numbers no problem.

My only problem with Dave is he didn't tell me about any of those spots.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> I know it's at minimum quintuple over the average, but in the context of the situation, I think it's doable.
> I think it can be done if all of the following are true:
> 1. 3-5 hunters on the ground at the same time, all day.
> 2. 3-5 reasonably good dogs on the ground at the same time, rotated throughout the day, all day.
> ...


 
I think you are 100% wrong and I mean that in the nicest way. 

1. Are you saying 3-5 guys lined up pushing cover will produce more birds then two experienced hunters pushing the cover?
2. If you think 3-5 guys on the ground at once is increasing the flush rate, then the dogs go against what you are saying.
3. Maybe your A+ covers are someone elses C covers?
4. We agree on this? 
5. Are you saying legs are the answer?

Mike, going against what Brian says, is there a science to grouse hunting? Do you think moving 40 grouse a day is a simple function of a mathimatical calculation? People + Dogs + Hours + Covers = 40+ day flushes? 

Can a guy or two go out with a couple dogs and move 40 birds between 4-6 covers? 

Are you trying to say? "well if you had the math correct you could do it? But if the Math is wrong you can't do it? Can two guys go out, move 40 birds in 4 hours and kill 7 between them? Or do you think to get to those numbers you have to have the math. Say Cast and Blast for example, a group of two goes out and a group of three goes out and together we move 60+ birds one group hunting the north side of a county the other the south? Do you think that is how Dave is counting?

(PLEASE NO OFFENSE MET JUST TRYING TO CREATE SOME CONVERSATION)


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

It's simple. Some folks just don't drink the Kool Aid. Their perogative in this free society of ours. That's what makes America a great place!


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## Bingo boy (Oct 20, 2009)

Chad : 

I'll try to explain some of my tactic's , but experience via instinct is probably the better answer. 
Saturday I was out with said middle dog, for a 2 hour hunt. 
5 grouse seen on points and 1 taken , and probably 12 or more actual points on scent. 
Cross wind point if I was lucky , and while I walked in about 20 yards from the left , bird flushed wildly cross my left, 2nd shot thought it was downed :lol:
Working tags had a scent point , but dog realized his mistake , moved another 10 yards and locked. I came in from the right apx. 25 yards and bird took flight. (because of the time of the year, I think this day showed birds less than willing to run far , but took flight sooner) 
Skip to the final bird - Dog when we initially walked in , nose took him westerly for a second , quick flash point , but button hooked down wind for first bird point. (when we came back I was 40 yards upwind , and it could of been fluck) but dog locked up. I devided the pines and the tags with some mature aspen growth , and bird flushed down wind which I bagged. 
But it's really better to interrupt what happened the day before : 
I was hunting apsen with small pine plantations in clumps. Birds use it for roster'n and dog casting in brush and aspen. Two points generated very skiddish birds. Walked a south ridge face pines dispersed next to pond , and had 3 grouse points. One point dog might of over ran his nose , bird flushed left back from dog , while I was walking in right side. Because I was on slight up grade , I figured I could cover majority of pie , and this back flush gave me a shot. I could not of been 25 yards from dog , headed another 25 ahead of dog. (Pond was like a barrier wall) When shot was taken I was even with dog. 
Here's the kicker , I went another 40-50 yards dog on dead to rights point , I could not of been 15 yards from dog , started walking about another 20 yards , but cover was tight , and bird on point flushed after tight sit, because the mate wild flushed 30 yards to my left and ahead. 
So even though the terrian worked to my advantage and the dog had a point dead to rights , when I walked out of there I said empty bag and a whole lot of of pi$$ poor shootin'. 
Early season , the wild flush is less likely , so walking tighter to the dog no matter the cover is all right with me . If I am not generating a bird with in gun range of the initial point , I'd move the dog. This time of the season , it's more important the dog holds the point scent , because more than likely (%'s) the birds are going to be happy to flush instead of run. 
Right at the end of the woodcock season , this skiddish behavior I see out of my favorite birds... yes the timber doodle will flush ,, but I've allowed my dog to move in on the running woodcock. I've seen them run at times up to 60 yards. 
My young dog.... I will not command to move up or whatever ... he handles them like a charm ...he does what ever it takes to lock them up. 
Hope this helps ... not sure , I've done it for so long .. I just don't think about that stuff.


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## Bingo boy (Oct 20, 2009)

Cover is probably a telling factor of the actual walk in. 
But if I am going to try to set something into stone I guess the idea would be read the dog .. is he locked on scent or dead to rights ? 
Early enough season , with young birds .. walk in closer to dog and straight out to apx 30 yards (gun range) to cover 1/2 pie. 
When later in season - I tend to give the point a bigger berth and picking side with best shot to shoot into cover. (I am hoping to cover 3/4 to 2/3's of pie) 
cover ranges greatly for grouse so it all changes , I could not say dial into this or that. 
However when drought years and Tags are the wettest of spots for some distance around , I work edges , and expect more shots going in and through this cover , than out to me. 
Putting a clock on this - forget it.. it's all about terrian and how the dogs is showing his nose. 
(that middle dog , if he isn't branded -(dead to rights) he carrys his head real high , and I'll see a twitchin nose , that pretty much tells me bird is up there aways.


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## Bingo boy (Oct 20, 2009)

Steel Head - made some interesting points which I think he pretty much summed it up. More hours to spend in the field more contacts. 
experience helps , but sitting on the couch and watching TV can't generate birds or points. 
I do not know what cover a,b,c are when it comes to this time of the year :lol:


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> 1. Are you saying 3-5 guys lined up pushing cover will produce more birds then two experienced hunters pushing the cover?


Yes. Because, one guy moving through cover is like a small "wake", everything gets pushed to the side, so to speak, as you go along. Three or four guys widens out the "wake" so as it makes it harder for the birds to out run you...or avoid you.


> 2. If you think 3-5 guys on the ground at once is increasing the flush rate, then the dogs go against what you are saying.


I don't understand the question here?



> 3. Maybe your A+ covers are someone elses C covers?


Yes, that could most certainly be the case.




> 4. We agree on this?


Agreeing on what?



> 5. Are you saying legs are the answer?


Yes, they are a large part of the equation...but not the end-all.



> Mike, going against what Brian says, is there a science to grouse hunting? Do you think moving 40 grouse a day is a simple function of a mathimatical calculation? People + Dogs + Hours + Covers = 40+ day flushes?


What I mean is...(and I think "K9wernet" got what I was getting at) it ain't a science, in the meaning that you can't expect to do everything exactly the same way and expect the same results every time. And, in a lot of cases that's what science proves. Theories are tested, from all different angles, and if the results are conclusive...then something is proven.

Point being...

I can walk in on a point from the right hand side every time, hoping for a right to left crossing shot because of my path. But, I can't tell you how many times the bird still goes left to right or pops up behind me or comes straight back at me...or so on and so on.

Sure what type of cover you hunt, on any particular day and what conditions are like each day, and being able to draw off your empirical evaluations of past experiences is critical, while grouse hunting. But, some days, the ruffed grouse throws all of that crap out the window.



> Can a guy or two go out with a couple dogs and move 40 birds between 4-6 covers?


Yes, if your name is Dave and Fritz...lol

But, seriously.

Yes.



> Are you trying to say? "well if you had the math correct you could do it? But if the Math is wrong you can't do it? Can two guys go out, move 40 birds in 4 hours and kill 7 between them? Or do you think to get to those numbers you have to have the math. Say Cast and Blast for example, a group of two goes out and a group of three goes out and together we move 60+ birds one group hunting the north side of a county the other the south? Do you think that is how Dave is counting?


This is too much to answer in one day.



> (PLEASE NO OFFENSE MET JUST TRYING TO CREATE SOME CONVERSATION)


No, offense taken...ya basta*d. (the last part of that statement is what you get for not showing up last weekend...lol)

Brian.


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