# **Season Date Discussion**



## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Ok...... let's here it!

You all know what you had last year, what's your thoughts on the coming season in terms of DATES/SPLITS *ONLY*. We'll layout the bag limits in another thread as this is going to be corkscrewing enough as it is on dates!!

As I've asked before, please give us some meat with your comments and please, everyone is welcome to share their thoughts. I'd like to hear it all, just give me more to work with than "last year sucked! DNR sucks!!" OK?!  

I would encourage all to check out all the other reference materials and press releases that are available on the subject. I won't post them all, but I will take some excerpts that I personally felt were noteworthy in considering our upcoming season. the following is not a complete release. consider it the cliff note version of actual.

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DU RELEASE July 12, 2005  
Prairie Canada is extraordinarily wet with 56 percent more ponds than 2004 (+17% more than the long-term ave.)

The U.S. prairies: little change on pond count. However, large tracts of the best waterfowl habitat ...were extremely dry when early breeding ducks, such as pintails and mallards, arrived. 

Total breeding duck numbers were relatively unchanged from last year .... Ducks in prairie Canada increased by 31 percent from the previous year but decreased in the U.S. prairies by 15 percent.

The counts for pintails and mallards in Dakotas were lower because of the parched landscapes that the ducks encountered when they arrived, However, heavy and continuing rains from the end of April until the present have completely changed things. We expect the late-nesting species and re-nesting birds to do well. (std. MO - deliver the blow, then soften)

Breeding Mallard count: 6.8 million birds, the lowest estimated number since 1993.  

Pintail count: 2.6 million birds, +18% from YAGO

mallards are 17 percent below  the population goals of the North American Waterfowl Management Plan (NAWMP).

The positive response in pintail numbers is welcome, Batt said. We think this will result in a modest recovery of pintail numbers, which have been languishing near record low numbers for several years. ... Pintails are still 54 percent below the NAWMP goal. 

Increase species- 
northern shoveler: +28% (+80% above goal)
American wigeon: +12% (-26% below goal)
Blue-winged teal: +13% (still 2% below goal) 

...scaup are at their lowest estimate ever at 3.39 million, down 11 percent from 2004, and 46 percent below the goal level. 

Waterfowl managers are concerned about scaup. ...the subject of several research projects supported by DU and other partners to discover the underlying causes of the scaup decline.


The Waterfowl Breeding Population and Habitat surveys are conducted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Canadian Wildlife Service throughout May and June on the main waterfowl breeding habitats in the mid-continent area across to Alaska. These surveys serve as the scientific basis for many management programs across the continent including the setting of hunting regulations.
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how I would like to start out is let's roll with a 45 day season? why? because it's always easier to ADD days if it's another 60 than it is to assume you have 60 and then try to take away days. (plus most would say "tack it on the end!", Right?!!)

I'll line list some things to consider:
1. Zones: Feds basically say you can have one ZONE and three splits or two or three zones and one split. (we typically opt for the later, Arkansas for example, takes the three split option). 

2. Splits. any break is a "split", so don't suggest a split and then the january hunt. ain't happening. the january season is a split. If you'd like to see a mid season or some other split - you will lose the january hunt.

3. Youth weekend. This is 9/17-18. There was considerable effort to remove conflicts with ADULT hunters accompanying the youths, so more likely than not, there will NOT be overlap here with goose hunting.

4. UP - let's here from you guys, but my recollection from past mtgs is that there is always a strong push to start the season(s) as early as federally allowed.

5. Historically speaking, the largest migration numbers observed through michigan at the GMA's is late October and early november. (the assumption here is that what increases you see here you would assume to see increases in other surrounding areas as well.)

6. Great Lakes Mallards constitute over 1/2 our our mallard harvest. 

7. expect a 30 day pintail (where do you want it?) and canvasback seasons.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
so going with an assumption you have 45 days to play with.... let's talk michigan '05 duck season! After some posts, I'll throw out an idea that I've been kicking around my head)


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## sprigdog (Jan 29, 2004)

The entire state opens 08 Oct-through Dec 2. 56 days
Youths get the 2 days in Sept= 58 days
2 day late hunt Dec 31-Jan 1= 60 days

Canada report is very optimistic, the Michigan report I read in an article by Bob Gwidz is not so good. But, I think some of the variables he mentioned in how the count was conducted were part to blame (new persons)

I personally feel this is one of the better mallard hatches in awhile. Every where I go I see hens with a brood. Everyone I talk to is seeing the same thing. 

I hate 3 openers, it gives us more days in general to hunt, but the local mallards TAKE A BEATING(so do my nerves) on 3 weekends vice one. You will save more mallards by having one opener and a 60 day season vice 3 openers and a 45 day season.


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## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

mallards....mallards....mallards...


 :yikes:  


I wanna hear news on the real ducks....DIVERS but everything always seems to be centered around bread eaters...


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## thedude (Jul 20, 2004)

there's 2 things that come to mind that shouldn't smell like fish.... duck's is one of 'em:evil: 

i won't weigh in on the dates as i've only lived hear for 6 months.....but...

question about #5, branta:
do you think this is the historic "peak" of the migration or is the number spike from GMAs having more of a crowd do to moderate weather? In other words, hunter numbers typically drop off as the season progresses and the weather gets worse and other distractions (like deer season for some). Perhaps the GMAs are seeing higher kills because they are more consistently filling areas w/ hunters during this time.

in the last several years, the peak migration through indiana has been mid december. Well after everything is frozen. and the season closed or on its last weekend. 

i can assure you i will be hunting watefowl from sept 1 through jan 31.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

I'll make my two cents short and sweet.....UP opener 10/8; entire LP opener 10/15. Youth hunt...yeah, the Sept. dates are fine. 45 day season, and if possible a January weekend in the SLP for you diver chasers. If we get 60 days, as you said "tack it on at the end".

My rationale.....1) Great Lakes Mallards have been down, and shooting those late Sept. early Oct. non-descript mallards probably amounts for a lot of hens taken that normally wouldn't be. Opening later *may* allow for better coloration/identification of birds. 1a) a 10/1 opener would conflict with bow season opener....lots of guys can't to do both with a 10/1 opener. But then again, lots of guys wrap an entire UP trip around both activities, so maybe a 10/1 opener does make sense for the economic impact in the UP  
2) These dates would still align with the peak migration period in all zones, typically being the last week of October and first week of November.
3) I hate hunting when there are mosquito's buzzing  so the later the better.

And I'll hold my thoughts about reduced bag limits until we get there later.... :evilsmile


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

thedude said:


> ....do you think this is the historic "peak" of the migration or is the number spike from GMAs having more of a crowd do to moderate weather? In other words, hunter numbers typically drop off as the season progresses and the weather gets worse and other distractions (like deer season for some). Perhaps the GMAs are seeing higher kills because they are more consistently filling areas w/ hunters during this time.


That does have something to do with it, but since you're relatively new to Michigan, you'll find that as the other hunting seasons start to heat up (namely bow hunting), interest in waterfowl hunting drops sharply, and most of the casual waterfowlers are gone. I know MANY people that drop everything for bowhunting during the rut, and Halloween seems to be their preferred date to live in a tree stand 24/7 :lol: . If you ask any old-timer waterfowler in Michigan when the peak migration occurs, they'll likely say the last week of October/First week of November, give or take a bit with weather conditions of course.


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## TrapperJohn (Jan 14, 2001)

45 day season - If you open on Oct 8 and run 45 days straight it closes on Nov 21. That might be OK in the UP. But if we only get a 45 day season, I'd rather see it close late Nov or early Dec in the LP. So here's my 2 cents worth

UP - Oct 1 or 8 opener 45 days season no splits
LP - 1st segment Oct 1 or 8 opener open 9 days. Earlier would give us a chance at some teal in the NLP.
LP - 2nd segment Oct 29-Dec 3 

NO JANUARY DUCK SEASON!


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

what are your objections to the two day January season?

I love it-besides the opening weekend, when we target teal and wood ducks (yes, there are some teal around here, at least for the last few years there has been), that's our best hunting, or shall I say sightings...other than a couple of days in early November when the first divers arrive. 

We aren't killing a lot of ducks up here in January, numbers say so, so do all the hunters I see up here during that season, and what we do kill, again up here at least, are mostly divers (goldeneyes for the most part, although we did get a few old squaws, er...longtailed ducks...a couple of years ago).

I'm with you on the early opener for the NLP...Zone 2...I also like the idea of a split season, nothing going on anyway for several weeks in October...but I want to keep that 2 day January season. 

I'd like to hunt late season geese (December season) when there's geese up here-I think Branta knows what I'm talking about-let's try for a week or so earlier on that in the NLP, that may be a problem since they like to make that late season statewide...

Please elaborate, John, I'm listening...


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## dinoday (Feb 22, 2004)

Linda G. said:


> what are your objections to the two day January season?


 I don't have much objection to the January season,but last year we and my buddy had to break 5-8 inches of ice to float our dekes :lol: 
I'd prefer not to have the split and let the season run longer in December...just my opinion.
A later start would make sense to me,it seems it would take some pressure off the local mallard population at let us target more migrating ducks.


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## duckman#1 (Sep 22, 2002)

Zone #1 = Oct 1st
Zone #2= Oct 8th
Zone #3= Oct 15th 

Three zone opener

With opening the U.P. on the 1st there should be fewer duck hunters due to Deer season . Which many complained to many duck hunters go to zone #1 when theres three openers.

"If" we get hit with 45 days, I would like the zone #3 start as late as possible so a opener on the 15th is the best option, and if we can get 60 days that will give us some good late season hunting in December.

My understanding is we "could" be given only a 45 day season, so we need to keep that in mind.


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## n.pike (Aug 23, 2002)

60 days start 10/15, mosquitoes are gone.

One opener statewide. The traveling circus to hit three openers creates too much havoc.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

Rather than talk about opener dates, I'd rather set the season by closing dates. Then, however many days we get would determine the opening day.

For the south zone I'd like to see season close Dec. 18th With a 45 day season that would put the opener right around Nov. 5 with a couple of extra days for a early 2-3 day season for teal and wood ducks. sixty days would pit the opener around mid Oct.

I'd really like to see the season left at 60 days, and just adjust the bag limit, say 60 days and 3 or 4 birds per day.

Keep the youth hunts going and even expand on them, we need more young hunters.


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## Waser Hund (May 27, 2005)

Talking to Joe out at the Kellogg bird sanctuary on Friday noght I learned alot of interesting information. He says that he believes we WILL be given only 45 days this season. as for opinions.... they are like elbows i guess. As for Diving ducks...Hmmmmm, I guess if ya can't call that is where you belong. I guess if you like your ducks to smell of fish, that is where you belong.


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

Lets try the 3 splits this year. :yikes: 2 weeks in October,November and December. That would be like having 3 openers. All though we would then kill way too many ducks for the feds and states to the south of us to be happy. It would be great for the pictures too. Piles of ducks for the 3 seasons. Then no idle time when the ducks are too wary to hunt this way. 

Open the season on the bow opener state wide. That will open a few spots in all the duck hunting spots state wide. 45 day season would run right up to the rifle opener. If they let us have a split or increased days add on the opener of the late hunt all the extra days at the beginning. The diver freaks would be happy with that season. We would lose a few of those fruit cakes in the big water but thats not much of a loss really now is it? :lol:J/k

Try getting some overlap of ducks and geese. At least more than the token 6 days we had last year. What ever happened to our traditional Thanksgiving goose season. It was something like a 4 day hunt. Is the CWAC members too young to know about that tradition? 

So lets see what I said. 

Open state wide on the first of October through November 14th. Any increase in the 45 days would be added on the beginning of the Janaury 2 day split season. Run goose season as a 2 per day limit from September through the end of January. 1 a day during the duck seasons.


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## bvd7 (Oct 22, 2004)

I would like my suggestion to be based on numbers of ducks, and what is right for the population as a whole, but I am just not that up on how to make the numbers increase. I apoligize in advance for my ignorance in that regard. However, here is an example of one situation I would like to avoid in the future. 

If I dropped a hen in the cattails, then went to retrieve it I or my dog came back with a bird that has rigamortice already. What do I do. I can't eat the bird in hand (who knows how long it was in the cattails) and I can't find the one I shot (then I am over limit on hen mallards)......two hens wasted and none eaten.


I think the season should start later, so bird identification is easier, hopefully it would cut down the number of hens shot thinking they might be a molted drake, then pitched in the weeds. (I have seen it more then a few times.)


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## bullcan (May 18, 2004)

Here is what I would want:

Northern lower and UP - Oct 1-30 and Nov 12-26
Southern lower - Oct 29 - Dec 10 and Jan 7-8


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## Rat Fink (Feb 20, 2001)

My main concern is keeping the 2 day January season. All of the people I hunt with and other duck hunters that I know look forward to those 2 days much more than opening weekend. It has become a big thing around here and I certainly would like it to stay. Better yet I would love to see a week in Dec/Jan or all in Jan. I cant wait for Ice Hunt 2006.


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## Krull (Mar 29, 2005)

Personally, I am for an earlier opener, not based on any numbers ect, just being selfish. Often by mid November many inland lakes North of Bay City have already begun to freeze up which limits some of the places I like to hunt, and I am not really set up for diver hunting big water. Of course mid November also brings firearm deer into play which is a killer for those who love to do both. By late November, many of the lakes and marshes down state can freeze up as well. Believe me, I have and am willing to break ice, but if there was a way to avoid I am all for it. One thing that seems ridiculous to me is not having more overlap in the goose and duck seasons. The last couple years it has been one weekend of overlap (per zone opening weekend) and the late season, that doesn't seem quite right to me. I am sure there is good reasoning behind this, but I sure would like to be able to blast a few more of those local honkers.


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## Chasin (Jun 25, 2002)

Statewide one opener.
October 1-15. State wide

UP Opener October 1-15 (split October 16-31) November 1-30th (45 days)

Southern zone Opener October 1-15 (split October 16-31) November 1-15th (split November 16 -30) Opens December 1-15 (45 days)

This would be my perfect 45 day season. For guys that dont hunt deer you can still hunt the UP the second half of November. 

The last two weeks of October are hit and miss for ducks anyway. By November 1st the flights are always here.


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

In regards to Add it onto the end that works great for the southern zone but the UP will be frozen out for the last 15 days you add on. That is why the UP traditionally wants the earliest opener possible. Im acually thinking this over alot more before I post up what I would like to see.

To many things to consider to post without really thinking it through


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

If duck season goes to 45 days and goose season is shortened also I would prefer not to have much, if any, overlap. Yeah, I like hunting both at the same time but would prefer more days in the field than the opportunity to take both. If we get 60 days and a goose season like we had 2 years ago wonderful but I really don't believe it will happen this year. 

As for my preferences on duck seasons, I like the late 2 days and would like more, but if we go to 45 days I'd give it up for a split elsewhere. I'd also like to see at most 2 openers to reduce pressure on Michigan mallards. Probably the UP and NLP together and then the SLP a couple weeks later.

Maybe something like:

UP/NLP 9/24-10/16 (23 days for woodie/teal/mallards)
10/29-11/19 (22 days for migrators/divers)

SLP 10/8--10/30 (23 days for woodies/teal/mallards)
11/19-12/10 (22 days for migrators/divers)

As for geese, early season 9/1-9/15, regular season 9/19-10/9, 12/10-12/18
and late season 12/31-1/31. Not knowing what to expect for days, these are just guesses for the SLP. I never get much out of the late goose season as we are usually frozen up but love the December season.


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## ytlabs (Jul 21, 2002)

From experience, I will not worry about it. The arguments will be hot and heavy between a couple people. The votes will be cast some will be bitter, not much will change or matter anyhow.

Those to the North are under represented verses those to the South. 
( observation not looking to start a fued or argument. I know the population is that way too. The difference of opinion is not going to change here. We can all accept that I think.) 

The eventual outcome will be decided, We all will have to accept whatever is agreed upon in the meetings and proposed by the state. 

Season will arrive we will hunt, some will be thrilled others upset. Birds and weather may or may not cooperate. In all we will all agree it was a wonderful time and in the process we will see new members join our ranks, others will pass before their time. Friendships will be made and some lost. 

In the end I will just be happy to have been able to participate.

With that let the members of the group  each other and their views and thoughts. Give em Heck Branta. :evilsmile 

See yas in the Marsh!! well I hope not too see too many of you though, that means we are too crowded again.


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## bombcast (Sep 16, 2003)

Chasin and Bullcan's ideas are both very appealing. The Jan. split is a mallard-fest, precisely what NOT to do when their GL #s are about 1/2 what they should be. 

I'm still betting we get 60, though.


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## Duck-Hunter (Mar 31, 2005)

Last years season was perfect, but know we have less numbers of ducks.

whats the deal with the goosed sitiuation? are they gunna have goose seasons like last year(lol last goose seasons were awesome)

from what i have seen localy(ducks and geese) i think the numbers are up.


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## eyecatcher (Feb 2, 2004)

I like to hunt when its cold so I would like a later season. I understand the problems in the UP and NLP so I would be happy with as season like this.
for a 45 day season. add any more days to the end. 

UPand NLP start 09/21/05 end 10/15/05 24 days reopen 10/25/05 end 11/10/05

SLP open 10/19/05 end 11/14/05 reopen 11/23/05 end 12/6/05 then 2 days in Jan.

thats my opinion and I'm stuck with it.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

thedude said:


> question about #5, branta:
> do you think this is the historic "peak" of the migration or is the number spike from GMAs having more of a crowd do to moderate weather? In other words, hunter numbers typically drop off as the season progresses and the weather gets worse and other distractions (like deer season for some). Perhaps the GMAs are seeing higher kills because they are more consistently filling areas w/ hunters during this time.


thanks for the question! maybe I wasn't very clear in my haste to get something up!

These are BIRD surveys conducted during these times. Each area conducts their survey for the GMA and reports (weekly) how many birds they're holding.
-DO NOT CONFUSE THIS WITH HARVEST INFO two different ends of the spectrum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
thanks for all the comments so far. some of them I find a little surprising!!
One of the "items" YT Labs is referring to is always the heated battle of "hunter opportunity" and "resource management". Some believe that it is of utmost concern that you maximize hunter days. meaning: three openers to stretch out possible days afield. also means LESS overlap to again, get more days afield. To some, this smacks of exploiting the resource and a disregard to the intent of hunter responsibilites and mngmnt goals. and yes, they get pretty worked up! :rant: 

It's interesting for me to read the later starts from the members. I recall alot of discussion before about starting early to take advantage of early birds migrating through - like teal and woodies.

It's also interesting to see the suggestions of now going BACK to a two zone format. 
(chasin' your suggestion wouldn't fly as you have "4" splits. either the whole state gets three total or you get UP TO three zones and ONE split each).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
january hunt- for those that can take advantage of it, I know it's quite popular and many have either one or two days of good shooting. consider this questions then; would you give it up for a full week or two in december instead? remember, one split. only personal comment I'll make is that we really hammered 'em that january weekend, but if someone asked me would I want a full week in January - I'd say no. You can smack them then because they're concentrated and they've had such a long rest of no pressure. It's opener all over again. I can't imagine I'd be able to be successful for a full week though - and I know this because I'm out there hunting geese at that time and my duck obs go way down. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll throw out an idea in a bit and would like your comments on it. It's an idea I've been kicking around in my head for some time and I'd like to bounce it off you guys. stay tuned....


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Eyes - I know what you're doing, but MONDAY openers would be a HUUUUGE uphill fight. Guys love those weekend openers.

D-H brought up another point that I think we should talk about and that's just this!! EVERY YEAR it's like a mystery as to "when do we start?" "when do we end?" the heated battles, three zones this year, two zones next year, etc. etc.

what are your thoughts on a weird idea of (within the federal constraints) always opening on the same date? Or, maybe it's not a set date like Deer or small game (wouldn't SOME deer hunters like to move THAT date around?!!). Maybe it's like some other states and provinces that always open their season on "THE FIRST MONDAY IN OCTOBER". Wouldn't that make your lives a bit easier? we could forever forget about the start dates and could plan your opener 2-3 years out!! UP ? first saturday in oct. NLP? 2nd saturday.

seemingly, we kinda have that but it's not firm and remember then... if you get a stinker season like 30 - you'd be done hunting ducks 11/15 in the SLP!!

(not advocating, not backing/suggesting.... just throwing the thought(s) out there)


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

This is a thought that I've kicked around a bit for about the last month and I swear, it was presented some time ago at a CWAC mtg but never went anywhere. It's an idea that was rekindled by a waterfowler from a different forum some time ago and it really got me to thinking about it more.

Here it is: One state wide "opener" and then a staggered "split season" format 

-One opener could appease those across the state that find an influx of new hunters for each zones historical opener. -I like this because it reduces "opener" pressure and let's just say it educates all the local mallards at one time vs. concentrating hunting pressure on uneducated birds for three straight weekends across all three different zones. Run this for two straight weekends (9 days)

then a staggered hiatus where depending on season days allowed, maybe the UP stays open. the other zones are closed. Those hunters that would have complained about "lost" hunter opportunity by not having three openers to shoot can still go out and hunt 2 or 3 "2nd openers" when the NLP and SLP restart their respective seasons. - I like this shift as it would be fair to assume that with the later Second opener, the mallards shot on these dates SHOULD start to contain more and more flight mallards in the bag vs. the old way which I have to assume that almost all mallards killed would have been locals. (_takes some pressure of GL mallards with one state wide crack (dispurse pressure) and then the ratio of migrant to local in the next late october opener should be skewed heavier towards migrant birds_)

-I think this split could find good opportunities for those that feel that we start too late in the LP and miss out on some teal or woody action. 

-It might also be appealing to others as the SLP can get some gunning the same time/shortly after Ontario is gunning birds. 

-and one of the biggest merits could be that it would also address the issue of "NOT ENOUGH OVERLAP OF DUCK AND GOOSE" - starting early for duck would address this issue by having more days afield where you could shoot ducks and geese. vs. one weekend as in seasons past for SLP
- It also should help address the related issue of Duck Hunters complaining about Goose guys scaring everything out of the marsh come duck opener. (believe me, we've heard it! the feeling is that by having someone in the marsh shooting before duck season, you're hurting the operner potential) 

I haven't mentioned dates, but just kick this can a bit. again assuming 45 days:

just hypothetical dates, assume goose is something like 9/24 - 10/9

state wide opener: 10/1 ducks ALL ZONES
UP/NLP: close 10/10 - 10/21 Open 10/22 and run through

SLP: Open back up 10/29 and run through into early december

Goose start up again: 10 days, 1st two weekends in December (again, more overlap for ducks and geese for at least some of the state).

that then means....... no 2 day january duck.

I'd like to kick this idea around a bit. anyone have some thoughts? tear it up please!


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

I keep going back and forth between protecting the GL malards and getting to hunt two openers in two of my favorite spots in the State. I dont want to give up my Teal Pond but I dont want to miss out on the UP opener either. 

Even with all that said I cant get away from the fact that we need to protect the GL Malards. 

This is what I came up with I dont know if it would fit in the Feds specs or not I think It would.

There are actually two options to this.

Two Zones UP / NLP. and the SLP. 

Both Zones open up on October 8th and close on November 20th. 

The SLP gets there 2 day January hunt on the 7th and 8th. ( this does really pound malards I admit but It lets the diver guys get out and I have been pudle hunting during this "reopener" its a great time I would hope some malards are flight ducks)

The UP / NLP get a early 2 day season September 24th and 25th. Teal and wood duck only. I know we cant get a Teal season but if we use our regular days for it and limit it to only teal and wood ducks just like we self limit to only 1 hen malard It should fit within the feds guidelines. We can be more strict just not less.

The second similar but 

Two Zones UP / NLP. and the SLP. 

Both Zones open up on October 8th and The UP NLP close on November 20th. 

SLP closes on ( pick a date) stays closed for a while then reopens to give some week(s) of later hunting when the north is locking up with ice and forcing flights of ducks down. They give up the January hunt.

The UP / NLP get a early 2 day season September 24th and 25th. Teal and wood duck only. 

I know this is a Strange one. But I was trying to really find a way to limit the kill of GL malards. Starting october 8th means less molted drake Malards so that protects the hens. And alowing the UP/NLP a teal Wood duck protects all the malards.


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## weatherby (Mar 26, 2001)

I can live with anything , but lets get that december goose season moved up to where we still have some geese to chase. I also like 1 opener


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

To your question on giving up the 2 day January duck season for a week in December...hmm...

probably not, personally. December is a really busy month for me, as it is for my son, and our entire group of hunters. If it were AFTER Christmas, but before New Year's, it would probably be fine, but even then, I doubt any of us could hunt more than a day or two, and after the second day, those other days would be a waste unless more migrators came through, as sometimes happens even that late, but not usually. 

And I don't think it would matter as far as ducks...the mallards that are here in January are here in December-so are the divers, usually. Most of those birds spend the winter here, on the rivers. We'd have to go all the way back to mid-November to avoid getting into many of those birds, and like I said, I don't think a lot are taken up here during that season, and if most aren't divers, it's at least 50-50 divers, mallards. 

So I guess I'd like to stay with the early January season...cut it to one day, if there's a concern, but the mallards we're hitting then are the same birds we're hitting in November...up here. 

I am hoping for a little earlier December goose hunt, tho. I'd like to have something to hunt in December. 

We like having an overlap of goose/duck for the opener, but we concentrate on ducks.


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## daddyduck (Nov 2, 2001)

Two openers, up/ then entire lower.
this would eliminate alot of pressure on the local mallards .

Or just one statewide opener , but no three openers .


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## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

Opinions, Opinions, Opinions....they are like....everybody has one.

Who the heck knows? 

I can tell you this, camping at lower TQ for last years UP opener...was great camping weather for sitting around the camp fire but certainly not for killing real ducks--at least not there.

As far as the geese....for all intents and purposes....December was the end of them around central Michigan...they were all long gone before the January season last season. This season, who knows?

I guess I am for a split of some sort, I dunno on actual dates, and don't care if it interferes with deer hunting. I don't live near water so, duck hunting is mostly limited to weekends so I don't get that many weekends to put a crew together to begin with. Deer hunting I can do on my own but duck hunting for me is more of a crew activity.

The thing that drives me nuts is the limited number of splits that would even be considered.....I know, I know.....but, if we had more, we would seem to have better odds of being able to hunt the birds when they are here.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

As I said in my original post, the older I get, the less I enjoy swatting mosquito's when I'm duck hunting, so the later start the better. Now I know I'm biased because I pretty much quit shooting teal/woodies some time ago, preferring to go after bigger things. So the early part of the season is a time for me to catch a college football game or two ...but that's just my opinion....I know a lot of guys like shooting at those little buzz bombs :lol:. So although I think your idea has some merit, by reopening in the SLP on 10/29, I would miss some of my historically best duck hunting time (last two weeks of October). And quite frankly, late November after the gun deer opener is often historically really blah from my experience. Again the period from about 10/22 to 11/19 is prime time in my opinion.  

But I will say I do like Brandon's idea of an early weekend for just teal and woodies...after all, we allow the two day January season in the SLP...why not an early weekend for those birds...hmmm. Problem as we all know is that picking out a young of the year mallard in the early season is often difficult, especially for kids and those inexperienced at ID on the wing, and I suspect there would be a lot of "mistakes" made if we were only supposed to be taking teal and woodies. But that would be a way of satisfying those who love to shoot the early birds, but keep the general season dates later. Definitely something to think about 

And Branta, me not being a gooser, the early goose season DEFINITELY DOES affect the hunting on the duck opener. Maple River is a prime example. Two weeks before the goose opener the area is crawling with teal, woodies, mallards, etc. We like to walk the dikes or canoe it each September, and I mean they are thick. Then the goosers get in there......game over. Not that they don't kill ducks on the subsequent duck opener, because they do. But back in the days prior to goose opening earlier than duck, that place was incredible to duck hunt. That's back when they pre-registered for the opener, and it was quite a sight to see. Being that I kind of gave up targeting teal and woodies, this situation doesn't affect me anymore. But it definitely does chase a lot of the ducks out.


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## Rat Fink (Feb 20, 2001)

I agree with what many of you are saying but I have to chime in for the NLP big water hunters here. It would be a travesty for us to lose the january hunt or the end of the regular season. Not everyone hunts inland lakes, sloughs, bever ponds etc. that are subject to freeze up. There are plenty of guys that would get unfairly screwed by hunting earlier rather than november and december. If I had to choose I would rather the season started in late oct. for the NLP and run 43 days with a 2 week layoff and then a 2 day " Ice Hunt". I hunt my fair share of small lakes and ponds that are subject to freeze up and I am very animate in my opinion that LATER is better. If it is once agin to be an early season I definately DO NOT want to lose the 2 day Jan. hunt.


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## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

just ducky said:


> the early goose season DEFINITELY DOES affect the hunting on the duck opener. Maple River is a prime example. Two weeks before the goose opener the area is crawling with teal, woodies, mallards, etc. We like to walk the dikes or canoe it each September, and I mean they are thick. Then the goosers get in there......game over. But it definitely does chase a lot of the ducks out.


Yup, we had a spot last year where we were hoping to kill some ducks as it was crawling with them. After a few goose shoots....they were long gone...


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## quackmaster (Sep 29, 2004)

First off, Im not counting on any type of season framework until i hear the nesting reports for the ontario and late nesting numbers for the prarie region because as was said in the DU report on their website, Conditions got alot better right after the surveys were done and the ontario report still isnt in. Im going to guess with all the rain we got and the number of mallards ive seen around here with large broods that we may be in for some good duck numbers this year..........so well just have to wait and see

The january hunt, im gonna say it like it is..........that destroys our GL mallards. Its like opening day all over again, right when the birds let their guard down, lets open up the season for 2 days and let everybody that has been having withdrawls from duckin have at them again. The number of hunters out hunting for those two days im sure has to be up there with the beginning of the regular season numbers. I mean they put it the day after New Year which im sure cuts down on hunter numbers, I always struggle getting up on the first....hahaha.........The fact is I hunt the NLP and that jan hunt it has been froze up for the most part the last two years and has been real hard to hunt. Yet on the close of our season in the NLP there are divers everywhere which is what i live to hunt that time of year. And right at peak diver season, our season closes. So in my opinion get rid of the 2 day jan hunt, give the diver hunters a little bit more of a season then just a few good weeks, and protect a lot of GL mallards in the process. Also in my opinion extending the season will cut down hunter numbers or at least spread out hunter numbers instead of having everybody concentrated in the SL on any open water they can find. I can just imagine how bad our mallards get punished that weekend. They have limited open water most years, hunter numbers are concentrated, and they give them a month to rest so the ducks are more suceptible to a hunters spread.............Im curious if they have done any research on these late season numbers, i wonder if the mallard pop. has been decreasing since the 2 day jan hunt. I say tack on another week at the end of the season, and let the diver hunters have some fun.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

lwingwatcher said:


> Yup, we had a spot last year where we were hoping to kill some ducks as it was crawling with them. After a few goose shoots....they were long gone...


Yep, even teal and woodies know when to beat feet the heck out of there...not like those stupid geese......OOOOOPS, there I go again. Sorry :evilsmile :evilsmile :evilsmile


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## TrapperJohn (Jan 14, 2001)

Linda G - I think it's been said here already. No january season to take the pressure of the GL Mallards. I know there's divers around, but to many hunters are targeting the Mallards then. I beleive the ratio is much higher torwards Mallard harvest but thats agumentative. 

Add these two days to the end of the season, hopefully in early Dec. Those divers are here then (so are the Mallards) but they haven't dropped their guard yet from any break in the season.

I like the thought of a 2 day Sept season for teal and woodies. Those of you that can remember a early opener (last weekend Sept) in the SLP (maybe statewide) back 20+ years or so (early/mid 80's). Opening weekend had many marshes full of BWT & GWT. It can be lots of fun. Have a later opener and a cold front push through the week prior and most of these little guys are (BWT) gone! 

Enough said!


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## sprigdog (Jan 29, 2004)

Like I said earlier, the people who are concerned for the GL Mallards should be pushing to get rid of the 3 openers instead of the 2 day late season.
2 openers would be fine UP and Lower. Just think how many mallards get shot from people who follow the season south in the opening weeks. 
One opener in the Lower would save thousands of Mallards............


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

I guess I don't understand why everyone is so insistent on having a January season. I hunt the LP within 30 miles of Gaylord. For the past several years, the lakes, ponds, etc, have been socked in with ICE by the first of December.

Unless you're fortunate enough to be hunting the big water in January, the late season is of no value to me. I'd rather see the migratory goose season increase a week or two.

-Andrew


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Divide Sag. Bay back up into middle and southern openers and that would make me happy. One opener for the Bay stinks in my opinion. 

Other than that, I hate hunting in warm/hot weather, so I'd actually like to see the dates pushed back and if on some years some waterways freeze early then so be it. I'd much rather take the risk of an early freeze up and hunt later in the year for quality birds in true duck hunting weather, then sweat to death swatting bugs all to shoot a bunch of teel that otherwise might get out of the state unscaved.

Just my 2 cents, but I'm for more quality hunting then racking up the death toll and making sure I get my monies worth out of the stamp.


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## eyecatcher (Feb 2, 2004)

Branta said:


> Eyes - I know what you're doing, but MONDAY openers would be a HUUUUGE uphill fight. Guys love those weekend openers.
> 
> D-H brought up another point that I think we should talk about and that's just this!! EVERY YEAR it's like a mystery as to "when do we start?" "when do we end?" the heated battles, three zones this year, two zones next year, etc. etc.
> 
> ...


Branta I agree with you, getting a monday opener would be a hard sell.

I would like it to go back to a Wednesday opener. 

I like the idea of a fixed day for the opener. I would be very much in favor of having the season open on the same day every year, I think the third wednesday in October would be ideal.


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## duckman#1 (Sep 22, 2002)

Branta, I too agree with a fixed date opener for each zone! This would greatly reduce the hunting pressure in Zone 1 & 2 which as you know has been the biggest reason for the "push" to have zone 1&2 opening at the same time.
Lets get rid of this guessing game of when the dates will be and go to a set date just like most other huntng seasons!!!!!!

Why is it that duck season has to open on a saturday? What was the reasoning in the beginning? Must of been the powers to be cuoldn't get time off from work so they decided to make it a saturday???

Hey, if you can't get the day off. then you miss the opener! So goes life.....


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Well.... I've been booted off the committee, so I can't do much anymore!  

Kidding. actually, I no longer have a vote. doesn't mean I don't have a voice and some standing. I'll more than likely still attend the meetings and weigh in where I can.

early goose always starts on a set date. many other states and provinces always start on a set date. (my buddy on PEI always opens first monday in october.)

I'm not saying I necessarily prefer this. just throwing it out for discussion as one way to streamline the reg and season setting process.


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## duckman#1 (Sep 22, 2002)

How can I get the names and backgroud of ALL the committee so we will know who is speaking on our behalf? and how do we get a record of their voting?
Afterall, if they are suppose to represent us, shouldn't we know who and how they vote?
I'm NOT suggesting they are doing anything wrong, but it seems too secretive to me as a long time duck hunter. Heck, I've never seen voting results or even meetig dates & minutes.
When and where is the next meeting? also, how can I get the minutes from past meetings? Perhaps the DNR can give me the info on these meetings since the DNR does attend these meetings?
I realize the meetings are NOT for public input, but just the same I would like to watch and learn how this process works.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

It's certainly not a secret society, that's for sure!

there are voting seats held by reps for the different areas and there is also seats held by , let's just call them special interest groups. these would include; MDHA, DU, MUCC, Harsens, etc. etc.

the best person to talk to would be Joe Robison of the DNR - He is the CWAC coordinator and should be able to tell you exactly who your rep is for each area. (I don't know who your new rep is for SW mi - nor do I know who is taking my spot in SE)

again, I can only speak for myself, but I think I've been pretty good about posting the what, when, where's of CWAC meetings. both pre and post.

as far as actual voting history or tally, it's probably a better question to ask specific to each rep as when the voting starts on motions, it's a "all for" (raise your hand - count) all against thing. I was there and I couldn't tell you specifically how each of the other 17 reps voted on each motion!


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

Branta was there any support for two malard hens this year?


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Not really. there's at least one rep that raises the issue at every past meeting, but it didn't go anywhere.


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## Shawn (Jul 28, 2000)

Duckman#1

You've got three CWAC members in your area. Todd Alofs, Hans Heuval and my term just ended. Ron Sefcik is taking over my position at the next meeting as my term has ended.

Todd Alofs represents Wildlife Unlimited, Hans is there on behalf of MDHA, Ron is a member at large.

There is nothing secretive about the CWAC meetings. It is a public meeting and proper announcements are made of the where/when. At each meeting there are between 10-20 non-voting waterfowlers that attend, along with press, typically it is Bob Gwidz. The CWAC mission statement is Provide feedback to the DNR-Wildlife Division on existing and proposed waterfowl regulations and wetland management issues. CWAC members must present views and concerns that represent stakeholders from their areas of the state and disseminated information learned at CWAC meetings back to those stakeholders and to also provide a "recommendation" of proposed seasons to the NRC (Natural Resources Commission). The CWAC doesn't have the end all power that many believe. The CWAC's recommendations, along with citizen other general public concerns and recommendations, the DNR recommendations along with the US Fish and Wildlife Service recommendations go to the NRC meeting in August to be voted on and determine a season.

The mere thought of a set start date each year at first does seen like a good idea, BUT we must keep in mind the complexity of waterfowl seasons, populations and regulations. If we were to pick a set start date as discussed in earlier post we would have to stick to that date/management technique for 3 years before we could change it. What would happen if we went to a 30 or 45-day season the next year? Would hunters really want those same season openers for a 30, 45 or 60-day season, effectively ending Nov. - Dec. hunting dates?

I can assure you that MI has a very diverse waterfowling community, from what the diver hunters on the Saginaw Bay prefer, to the river marsh hunters of West Michigan, big water hunters of the Eastern UP and the layout shooters of the lower Detroit River, season opinions vary widely. It takes a ¾ majority vote by CWAC members for a motion to pass and be presented to the NRC. It really doesnt look favorable on the CWACs behalf if their members cannot agree upon a season proposal. There is a tremendous amount of compromise involved in the final season recommendations This year in fact, there were at least 4 different proposals and votes before the final Zone 3 recommendations were agreed upon. Now back to the idea of setting a season start date and leaving that way every year. Rest assured that in a 30-day season and an early Oct. opener there would be a tremendous amount of unrest in certain segments of our waterfowling community. Personally I think it great that we are afforded the opportunity to adjust.

Any current/former CWAC member would be glad to discuss anything waterfowling and CWAC related. Feel free to call or email me, I live in Allegan.

Shawn Stahl
616 836 6749
[email protected]


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## duckman#1 (Sep 22, 2002)

Shawn, Do you agree tho that a fixed date for the U.P would greatly reduce the number of down state hunters? and hasn't one of the biggest complaints on the 3 zone opener is too many hunters show up for 1&2 openers?
Couldn't they set dates based on 60days, 45, days & 30 day seasons? So if we get hit with a short season it will automatically have a later opening date?How about a set- date for Zone 1 only? Since the later end of the season is frozen up, it wouldn't be effected so much by different season lengths?
I personally really hate the Saturday opener. "play it where it falls"
As I said, "If you can't get the day off for the opener..too bad"


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## Shawn (Jul 28, 2000)

I'm not totally convinced that a fixed UP opener will stop a significant number of individuals from traveling north of the bridge. These are mostly the hardcore guys looking to extend thier season. Most of the complaints are from UP residents, as unfortunate as the UP's geographic location is let me also point out that Zone 1 hunters do have the opportunity to travel south at the back end to extend thier season and they also do have the oportunity to jump the border and start even earlier.

The process of starting a season early by traveling is age old. Many hunters do it whether they head to the Dakotas or Canada. The same can be said for hunters that travel south after our season is over.

I really don't see the point or validity in a "set" opener reducing overcrowding. Your still going to have the overcrowding on the first weekend available by those extending thier season. As available habitat decreases and the popularity of waterfowling increases, overcrowding is a fact we must all deal with.

Like I said in my earlier post, MI is a large and vast state, with many diverse waterfowlers and conditions. Season dates are set up as a compromise to the best situation for all. There mere notion of "If you can't get the day off for the opener..too bad" in my opinion seems a little selfish.

Shawn


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## Quackshot (Jan 14, 2005)

I sure would hate to lose the Jan season here in the northern lower. It has been the best hunt going for the last two years in a row. I can hear those Goldeneyes slicing the frosty air even now. 

Bill:yikes:


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## quackmaster (Sep 29, 2004)

Quackshot, what area are you hunting in the NLP ive tried to hunt the late jan season the last two years and for the mostpart everwhere i go is froze up except around the Bay area..........


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## Quackshot (Jan 14, 2005)

Quackmaster,

Northeast Lower. I will say that it takes me two weeks of scouting right up to the night before to set up a good two hour hunt. You just have to find a pocket of open water.

I know this is off topic, but with mallards in bad shape ( Brantas data says lowest number of breeding birds since 93) and especially young of the year birds being so suceptable to motion decoys ( some of the data Ive seen says 6 x more likely to decoy to motion decoys than regular blocks) I wonder how many of us would be willing to give up the robos to give the mallards a breather, rather than wait for even more restrictive seasons in the future?
I know , I know...... its just a thought!


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

Quackshot said:


> Quackmaster,
> 
> Northeast Lower. I will say that it takes me two weeks of scouting right up to the night before to set up a good two hour hunt. You just have to find a pocket of open water.
> 
> ...



dont dismiss it out of hand. Its a GOOD THOUGHT !


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## sprigdog (Jan 29, 2004)

Branta, Shawn, and all other CWAC members/past and present:

Thank you!

You will never make everyone happy, it's obvious to me there is alot that goes into your reccomendations besides "maximum carnage on all waterfowl" that fly through Michigan. As one of you said earlier, this state is about as diverse for waterfowling as they get. fish duck hunters want late (most downstate), park duck hunters want the best of both worlds, lets shoot Teal and Woodies in Sept/early Oct, but give me the big redlegs of Dec,
Yoopers want to hunt early and end early (cant blame them), a few want the 2 day January hunt, cause for those who have a good spot, it's about the only time your guaranteed 8 greenheads in 2 days. But if you dont have a good spot, its just a good excuse to go duck hunting in Jan.

With that said, option one is the best I've seen in awhile, I bet you would keep 75% of the waterfowlers happy with that one.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Quackshot said:


> Quackmaster,
> 
> Northeast Lower. I will say that it takes me two weeks of scouting right up to the night before to set up a good two hour hunt. You just have to find a pocket of open water.
> 
> ...


If my take is correct, I think 90% of the hunters who use spinners would give them up tomorrow. The NODAK website just had a similar discussion, and they too overwhelmingly said they'd give them up in a heartbeat. Why don't you post a poll and ask the question?


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Good thing some of you are willing to give up the mojos, because if we open on October 1st, we will...through the 8th...new federal ruling that I'm surprised hasn't been discussed here yet, was it mentioned at CWAC, Branta?

No mojos anywhere in the Mississippi Flyway from October 1st through the 8th of October, and if you're hunting state management areas (Harsen's, Fish Point, etc.) no mojos during the regular season at all...a resolution was passed by the council to ask the feds to do a study on the ethical, social and biological effects of the mojos-they may be completely banned in the Mississippi Flyway next year, it's a possibility. 

I'm not sure how I feel about these seasons-I like the goose dates for the December hunt in the NLP, maybe we'll finally get a crack at some geese, for the last two years, it would snow and the birds would move out just as that hunt started. 

I'm not sure a split will make any difference in many areas up here-hardly anyone is out anyway during the deer season up here, so the ducks get a break anyway...but it seems as if the majority of the divers either arrive in early November or haven't been coming through at all until after the middle of December (note the snows mentioned above), the last few years that we hunted into December we dealt with very shy ducks that had been here for weeks right up until the end of the hunt. Long warm falls the past few years means most of the divers aren't likely to show until later this year, too. Or, if it's a cold fall, they'll get here in early November, we'll get a couple of days of good shooting, then they'll be so shy we'll toss the rest of the season. 

I would also hate to lose that January season, again, we aren't hammering the mallards. The divers ARE here by then, our bag consists mostly of goldeneyes, a few buffies, rarely more than one or two mallards. If hammering mallards are an issue, put a limit on them during that hunt, don't kill the hunt. We kill mostly divers, on the rivers, on public land, which ARE open all over northern Michigan. 

From the sounds of it, the controversy over the two day late hunt is mostly in southern Michigan-if so, either change the rules to protect the mallards down there, or kill the hunt entirely down there...the January hunt has become very popular up here, gets a lot of people, especially young people, out (they're on Christmas break), keeps a lot of people sober over the New Years holiday  , and doesn't result in a whole lot of ducks bagged, except by a select few, and that's not harming the population, from what I've seen and heard. Since I've done region wide stories on the hunt for the past two years in a row, I talk to a lot of people...this hunt isn't hurting the ducks in the NLP, and it IS popular. You just gotta scout a little. 

It's a good thing we didn't have a late hatch up here this year, or that early opener date would be bad news for mallards, far worse than a 2 day late hunt that not a lot of people partake in would be. And that early opener means hunting in your shirtsleeves and fighting off the skeeters in the NLP, if the fall is anything like the last few have been. We should go at least a week later for the NLP. Yes, we'll have a good shot at wood ducks and teal, but we've had that anyway the last few years with the warm falls we've had. 

Oh well, I'll still be out there, but I think a lot of folks will be disappointed up here...


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

Linda, Can you provide a link to this information? It's the first I've seen of it. I know Arkansas proposed a ban that apparently had very little support elsewhere. I'd be very interested in hearing more.

In doing a search, I've found that MINNESOTA may ban spinners the first part of the season and on the management areas for the whole season. I just can't find anything on the whole Flyway banning them.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Linda, I"m not aware of a fed mandate on spinners either nor was it mentioned in the mtg. I would think that such an action (Unless "emergency action") would have been discussed when they set up each of the flyway season recos late last month.

I'm not surprised by the feelings/concerned expressed about spinners. we DID talk about them and their effectiveness, but I think the general concensus was that this is not a "state by state" issue. IF it's going to work at all, it would have to be done at the Federal level. I think even Arkansas has backed off their "ban" on spinners. and BMAC is correct, Minn has a moritoreum on their use for the first part of their season and in GMA's.

My parting caution to all the reps and parties on the spinner issue was "be careful what you wish for." I'm fortunate to have hunted many different areas and one happens to be Oregon. Pre spinners, no one had a problem, right? motorized spinners came out, then the studies, then the bans and what did they ban? not JUST spinners. remember everything was fine before spinning wings? well, now you couldn't use wobblers, swimmers, quiver magnets, goose motion magnets, etc. etc. 

My point is that be careful in the wordingof any proposals/bans. when the pendulum swings too far to the right, it doesn't just go back to the middle, it tends to swing way past to the left.

and don't take this to mean I'm a big spinner slappy! ban them tomorrow, I don't care. but I don't know what was wrong with my magnets PRE spinner.

"one bad apple spoils the whole bunch"!!


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Just thought of something else on the federal 10/1-8 ban. if that's true, the easy way around that is to just start after the ban! right?!!!


as far as the january hunt. I'd be lying if I said I was big fan of this hunt. It simply costs us too much flexibility in season setting. remember, you're only allowed one split for each zone or three splits and one state wide zone (like Arkie).

I just think if you did things right (season setting) you'd be smacking early birds and then banging away at the late migrators in mid december.

and it's not to say "they must be right, we're wrong", but just look around us. When does Minn start/end? when does WI start/end? how about ontario? they're banging away on 9/24 right across the river from me. too early? they're banging all through December. too late? for WHOM?!!!


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Had the following sent to me from a writer in, ahem, Minnesota, so it could be you are right, Bmac and Branta...but he told me it was Mississippi Flyway wide...

"Motorized decoys

While Mississippi Flyway states that support restrictions on motorized (spinning-wing) decoys were unable to further their cause, the flyway did pass a resolution that requests the USFWS look into the biological, social and ethical implications of the decoys, Cordts said, and "restrict their use nationwide if warranted."

"We pushed that and I'm glad we passed it," he said.

Arkansas proposed a flyway-wide ban on the devices, something that failed in committee for lack of support. That state banned use of the decoys last year. Minnesota also has some restrictions in place.

"There was little support outside Arkansas, Minnesota, and maybe Tennessee for an outright ban (on the motorized decoys)," Cordts said.

This year, there are a couple changes regarding use of motorized decoys. They may not be used to take waterfowl from Oct. 1-8. (New language includes all motorized decoys, including those that pump, disturb, or splash water, according to Norrgard.)

After Oct. 8, the same restrictions on motorized decoys applies to state wildlife management areas through the end of the duck season."


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Too early for northern lower Michigan is when we can't readily identify juvenile hens from juvenile drakes-in wood ducks and mallards.


It's never too late, for the most part, as long as there are open rivers, and there's several in this area, as well as, for some with the right equipment and a whole lot of nerve, the big water, although shelf ice has got to be a problem. But there is a long interval in there, usually in October up here, although lately it's been November through early December, when we can't shake the birds we've got (early migrants staging in the area, I think) for the rest of the migration...when we hunt in January we get the best of both worlds, locals during the early part of the regular season, and migratory birds that haven't been yet been decoyed or called that season.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Linda G. said:


> ... (New language includes all motorized decoys, including those that pump, disturb, or splash water, according to Norrgard.)
> 
> After Oct. 8, the same restrictions on motorized decoys applies to state wildlife management areas through the end of the duck season."



My point exactly. everything OTHER THAN spinners was just fine and dandy before this thing was even on people's radar screens. I don't ever remember hearing about studies, concerns on the effectiveness of herters batt op swimmer, the quiver magnet, decoy dancers....

right or wrong, now they'd all be lumped together becuase it's convenient just to say all motorized devices. wouldn't it be just as easy to say "spinning wing"?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Branta said:


> My point exactly. everything OTHER THAN spinners was just fine and dandy before this thing was even on people's radar screens. I don't ever remember hearing about studies, concerns on the effectiveness of herters batt op swimmer, the quiver magnet, decoy dancers....
> 
> right or wrong, now they'd all be lumped together becuase it's convenient just to say all motorized devices. wouldn't it be just as easy to say "spinning wing"?


Yep, I agree Branta. Although personally I could give my spinner up tomorrow (I didn't buy it anyway...won it at a DU banquet :evil: ), I do have a jerk cord decoy that I made which is nice, and I have one or two of those "quiver magnet" gizmos around that I use once in a while on a calm day. So if they ban the things, they'd better be very specific on the language or their all out. And having intimate knowledge and involvement in how legislation is drafted and passed here in Michigan, getting the proper wording is VERY DIFFICULT. I'm also kind of suprised that the manufacturers of spinners are not lobbying harder against any kind of ban....maybe they are and we don't know it? Usually whenever we discuss banning a certain type of product here in Michigan, the company attorneys come out of the woodwork :yikes: 

On second thought, when is a "motion" decoy too effective? Which ones are too effective? Where's the data...is it just anecdotal, or is there hard data? Are there days when my jerk cord decoy works like a charm? You bet there are. One trick I learned many moons ago from a veteran duck hunter was to collect a bunch of short sticks at the start of the hunt, like the ones you would throw for your dog to fetch. On calm days, when you see a flock heading your way, you toss a stick out to create ripples. 

So I sound like an attorney now :yikes: but playing the devils advocate I think the spinner manufacturers would have a great argument if a ban did not include all types of motion decoys. Unless there's a way that you can definitively say spinners are much more effective than other types of motion decoys.


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## stacemo (Oct 23, 2003)

I think the ban is just Minnesota. Otherwise we would of heard something. Here are the Minn. regs:
http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/hunting/2005/waterfowl.pdf
It states exactly what Linda is saying.


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