# septic systems , arched chambers?



## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Anyone ever use this system instead of perf pipe and washed stone?
Any cost savings?Looks pretty simple to do.


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## JBIV (Jan 29, 2004)

I would stick with stone and tile. I've seen those go bad in 18 months in decent soils. Some have made it 17yrs, but why risk it.


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## neazor91 (Aug 4, 2008)

My neighbor in the UP put one of these systems in about 23 years ago. He connected two cottages to the system. He's had zero problems with it. He claimed it was a lot cheaper to install than a standard system.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

If cost is a concern does your county allow a tank and a lagoon?


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

In sandy soil, I can't see how this wouldn't be better. 

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## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

Ugh, I'm battling the search for my septic tank right now. Last owners never pumped it and didn't know exactly where it is. It hasn't been pumped since at least 2006. It's time but I can't find it. I have no areas that the snow melts quicker and 20ft from the house is frozen like 16 inches down solid. The rest of the yard only has about 4 inches frozen. This has me confused.

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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

limige said:


> Ugh, I'm battling the search for my septic tank right now. Last owners never pumped it and didn't know exactly where it is. It hasn't been pumped since at least 2006. It's time but I can't find it. I have no areas that the snow melts quicker and 20ft from the house is frozen like 16 inches down solid. The rest of the yard only has about 4 inches frozen. This has me confused.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Take some measurements in the basement where the pipe goes through the wall to a window or corner, then transfer these measurements to the exterior. Then chase the pipe.

You might be able to find some helpful info at the county. The builder probably had to file a plan of some sort when pulling permits that indicates tank size, # of tanks, and general location. I had to go this route to find 1 of my tanks as my soil has cobbles in it and I couldn't find the 2nd tank. Spent 2 evenings after work probing my yard with a steel rod and digging before I finally located it. The 1st tank was only buried about 6" but the 2nd was about 18" down due to the grade of my yard. 

If worst comes to worst, most septic tank pumpers will locate and dig up your lids for a fee. They told me $25-50 per tank, depending on how hard to locate & hand dig.

You should be able to thaw frozen ground with a tarp & some ingenuity.

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## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

I've tried that. Health dept has no records on my place. She said they didn't start keeping records until the 80s.
They put pavers and flowers beds in the first 10 ft from the house. After that is the mysterious frozen spot. I suspect it's further back almost to the garage because the drain field is behind the garage.









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## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

Pipe comes out about 15 inches under the pavers.
It's frozen hard where the yellow spot is. I suspected that to be the tank location

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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

limige said:


> Pipe comes out about 15 inches under the pavers.
> It's frozen hard where the yellow spot is. I suspected that to be the tank location
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Do you have (or know somebody that has) a metal detector? You should be able to find the rerod handle on the lids with one. 

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## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

Quack Addict said:


> Do you have (or know somebody that has) a metal detector? You should be able to find the rerod handle on the lids with one.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Yep, borrowed one and tried it. Drove a stake in the ground and didn't hit anything. Stake was only 18inches long. Maybe it's deeper.

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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I helped put in an infiltrator system 20 years or so ago on Mackinac island. Tried and failed to get one approved near Houghton lake 10 or so years ago. In both cases it included a septic tank.

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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

brushbuster said:


> Anyone ever use this system instead of perf pipe and washed stone?
> Any cost savings?Looks pretty simple to do.



My contractors put a lot of them in NLP. They are more popular in some counties than others. I had a contractor open up a system that had been in place for over 12 years and water never reached the far end in any of the runs in that time. That was in Manistee County. In your soils I'd bet you'd never have to replace it. Most of Northern Michigan has perfect soils for infiltrator systems.

I don't know any counties that allow lagoon systems in NLP, unless there is no other option. We were allowed to put one in at our camp in Kalkaska County for our lodge because we have 29' of hard clay and basically no other option. The DEQ suggested a sand filtration system, but I said no thank you. Some counties in the UP allow lagoon systems, but you have to have a minimum of 15 acres.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I think they are a great system. Some building agencies/inspectors, not so much.

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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

swampbuck said:


> I helped put in an infiltrator system 20 years or so ago on Mackinac island. Tried and failed to get one approved near Houghton lake 10 or so years ago. In both cases it included a septic tank.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


My inspector is fairly new,he's the one that sugested it due to my sandy soil. The only thing i can think of as far as problems go is the entire length of the field wouldnt get utilized


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## tuckersdad (Oct 30, 2010)

Infiltrators and sand...+1
Permitted a bunch of them as an Env. Health supervisor...saves on labor costs and work very well in proper soils...some counties will not permit them due to poor soil conditions...


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## cliftp (Jan 13, 2007)

brushbuster said:


> Anyone ever use this system instead of perf pipe and washed stone?
> Any cost savings?Looks pretty simple to do.


Hi Brushbuster, I've had this system since 2000. It has 4 runs with a diverter valve, so I can switch zones every year. Not a problem yet. Although, the contractor that put mine in did one for my neighbor 5 years or so ago, and he used the conventional perforated pipes for a drain field. 

When the kids were home, I would pump the septic tank every year, now we go every 3 years. 

The county inspector when mine was put in back in 2000 said it was a great system. Hoping!!

Paul C.


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## tdejong302 (Nov 28, 2004)

Call your local septic pumper they usually know where they are at due to pumping them before.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

The clean out company will find it in 10 minutes. You can start by following the pipe of out the basement, tank is usually about 15ft away and the snow will melt there first.


limige said:


> I've tried that. Health dept has no records on my place. She said they didn't start keeping records until the 80s.
> They put pavers and flowers beds in the first 10 ft from the house. After that is the mysterious frozen spot. I suspect it's further back almost to the garage because the drain field is behind the garage.
> View attachment 295830
> 
> ...


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

How does one keep a septic tank from filling up with water every spring?


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

d_rek said:


> Question... How often should you have your septic pumped? My grandma has lived at their house with a septic field over clay soil for 30+ years and has never had it pumped (at least not to my knowledge).
> 
> We just had one put in at our new house last year. I was told it was 'extra large' considering the soil type, and the GC seemed to think if I ever had problems with my septic it would be because I damaged it some way.
> 
> I'm only asking because I want to plan finances for when (if) i need to get it pumped in 3-5 more years. It's only 1 yr old but a lot of our wastewater goes right into our septic: clothes washer, dish washer, 2 toilets, bathtub, shower stall, kitchen and bathroom sinks. Our sump drains to daylight and our softener water and drain tile goes into the sump.


User dependant, I have had septic systems all my life. Normally with a full house hold and a properly described tank and field 3-5 years. My wife and I had a 4 bedroom house with 4and1/2 baths, with a 1500 gal tank. we could have lived in that house for 20 years before needing a pump job. We sold it after living in it for 15 years and we had it pumped once, and the guy said we didn't need it.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

d_rek said:


> Question... How often should you have your septic pumped? My grandma has lived at their house with a septic field over clay soil for 30+ years and has never had it pumped (at least not to my knowledge).
> 
> We just had one put in at our new house last year. I was told it was 'extra large' considering the soil type, and the GC seemed to think if I ever had problems with my septic it would be because I damaged it some way.
> 
> I'm only asking because I want to plan finances for when (if) i need to get it pumped in 3-5 more years. It's only 1 yr old but a lot of our wastewater goes right into our septic: clothes washer, dish washer, 2 toilets, bathtub, shower stall, kitchen and bathroom sinks. Our sump drains to daylight and our softener water and drain tile goes into the sump.


If your system is well designed and properly sized you may never have to pump it. A couple things people do wrong with septics....never put anything in the septic tank that doesn't go through you besides TP. No baby wipes or "flushable wipe" no garbage disposal etc.. some people add on to their home and cause issues. Or run a daycare etc.. If your house was a 3 bedroom home when built and was designed for 4 people it may have required 400 ft of drain in your soil type. You add a couple bedrooms and add water usage for 2 more people you could have an issue. My buddy's wife started running a daycare after 20 yrs of no septic issues. She had 12 kids a day flushing toilets. Added an extra washer and dryer to keep up with laundry.....this caused all sorts of issues with his septic.

My father has been in his home 47 yrs without ever pumping his tank. I have been in mine 18 yrs without pumping it.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

DirtySteve said:


> If your system is well designed and properly sized you may never have to pump it. A couple things people do wrong with septics....never put anything in the septic tank that doesn't go through you besides TP. No baby wipes or "flushable wipe" no garbage disposal etc.. some people add on to their home and cause issues. Or run a daycare etc.. If your house was a 3 bedroom home when built and was designed for 4 people it may have required 400 ft of drain in your soil type. You add a couple bedrooms and add water usage for 2 more people you could have an issue. My buddy's wife started running a daycare after 20 yrs of no septic issues. She had 12 kids a day flushing toilets. Added an extra washer and dryer to keep up with laundry.....this caused all sorts of issues with his septic.
> 
> My father has been in his home 47 yrs without ever pumping his tank. I have been in mine 18 yrs without pumping it.


Good to know. We don’t have a disposer and the only solids it receives are human waste, TP, and water food is small enough to find its way down the trap. 


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## JUSTCATCHINUM (Feb 19, 2004)

We use strainer baskets in the kitchen sinks to trap the "water food".


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

JUSTCATCHINUM said:


> We use strainer baskets in the kitchen sinks to trap the "water food".


Oops I meant “whatever food” lol... yes we use strainers too but some of it makes its way down there regardless. Not big chunks just stuff small enough to get through the trap holes. I figure it can’t be any worse than the damage the old lady does after her “protein” shakes LOL


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

bucko12pt said:


> When you're ready to replace, ask your contractor about installing a wye in the discharge line so you can switch flow between your old field and the new one. You can switch back and forth once a year, or so, and extend the life of the new field by a significant amount of time. Some health departments will allow it. Often, simply by letting the old field dry out it will start working again and you can gain more life. Can't do that when you're using the field, but you can if you add a field and rotate the discharge.



I will look into that, but, at my age, I don't believe that I can outlive a new field. 

I don't know how what would "dry out" the old field, since a new one would be directly over top of the old one.


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## tuckersdad (Oct 30, 2010)

A Zabel Filter will greatly increase the life of the leachfield.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

d_rek said:


> Good to know. We don’t have a disposer and the only solids it receives are human waste, TP, and water food is small enough to find its way down the trap.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Waste water like laundry showers dishwasher etc doesn't hurt your septic performance. I would argue not enough grey water like these will hurt it before too much would. When you flush solid waste down to your septic it dissolves faster than you think. Anyone who has ever had a toddler that liked to leave a floater in the bowl knows this. The toilet is a brown mess the next day. Once that waste breaks down it moves from the solid side of the tank to the waste water side of the tank then out to the drain field. You want water passing through the tank washing the waste through. Generally people have an issue if they put things In the solid side of the tank that don't dissolve or won't dissolve quickly enough. The solid side of the tank gets clogged or solids move to the liquid side of the tank when they shouldn't and then clog the drain field. 

A drainfield can eventually clog up and stop working even if the tank is working properly. It will for a few reasons. It could be that you drove over it damaging a tile. Could be roots from trees get into it. Don't plant trees near the field. It could be that it wasn't designed well enough for the amount of people using it or for the type of drainage in your soil. All of these reasons can and probably would happen regardless of pumping your septic. 

I have heard people mention issues with a wax like crust building in the solid side of the tank and many say it is from materials in soaps. I know a guy that claimed to have that issue after his kids moved out and it was just he and his wife not using enough water to keep things moving in the tank. I think that would be much less of an issue these days with high efficiency washers and less detergent being used in them.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

DecoySlayer said:


> I will look into that, but, at my age, I don't believe that I can outlive a new field.
> 
> I don't know how what would "dry out" the old field, since a new one would be directly over top of the old one.


I don't think the health dept would let you put a field in the same location unless the old one was removed and you start over. Ideally you would have another location and could split usage of the fields to allow the old one to dry out via the wye valve. 

I did see two fields put in on pen on top of the another on a project on Lake Charlevoix. It was for 6-8 different homes and in a wet area in a cedar low area. Kind of a double mound system, craziest thing I ever saw and only allowed I'm sure because there was a lot of money involved and no other option.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

bucko12pt said:


> I don't think the health dept would let you put a field in the same location unless the old one was removed and you start over. Ideally you would have another location and could split usage of the fields to allow the old one to dry out via the wye valve.
> 
> I did see two fields put in on pen on top of the another on a project on Lake Charlevoix. It was for 6-8 different homes and in a wet area in a cedar low area. Kind of a double mound system, craziest thing I ever saw and only allowed I'm sure because there was a lot of money involved and no other option.


That is one of the reasons it's going to cost so much. The field will have to go where the old one is. Our ground water is always high, and a sometimes of the year, VERY high. 

We are going to have to put in a raised system, and that will not have any affect on how high the ground water is. Everything under that mound will be saturated, just as it is now. 

We have put in drains, and would like more, but they can't be put in until a new septic system is in place, since there are laws about how close a drain can be to a leach field.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Grease and oils are to be avoided and there are differing opinions about having the softener drain into there, I purposely don't have mine set up that way.


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## Musket (May 11, 2009)

Whatever system you choose, avoid using anti microbial soaps. If you are using them, stop. They are a sure death of a septic system.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Musket said:


> Whatever system you choose, avoid using anti microbial soaps. If you are using them, stop. They are a sure death of a septic system.


Logical, as bacteria is what breaks down the solids.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Musket said:


> Whatever system you choose, avoid using anti microbial soaps. If you are using them, stop. They are a sure death of a septic system.


I am not sure there is any issue anymore. The feds banned 19 different additives from antibacterial soaps back in 2016. 

The reason they banned them....They didn't work at killing bacteria and some of them proved harmful to humans. The stuff in soaps these days won't kill bacteria they just aid in washing it away.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

You would be surprised how far a trees roots like a maple or willow will go for a sip of the sweet tea in a septic. I did one at a house I was selling, the only tree for quite a ways was a maple well on the other side of the house. Those dang roots went around the foundation and into the tank outlet, they were 2 inches thick. I had another house with a addition built right over the tank, with footing cement right on the tank, one cleanout was exposed I didn't make a lot on that one.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Yes, maples can be a mess.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

FREEPOP said:


> Yes, maples can be a mess.


Weeping willows are bad and good I think, when planted in very wet areas like along a wet road their roots stabilize and support quite a bit of weight that the soil would not without them.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

Hmm. I have a few mature maples within 20-30 yards of my leech field. Should I whack 'em before they become a problem?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

d_rek said:


> Hmm. I have a few mature maples within 20-30 yards of my leech field. Should I whack 'em before they become a problem?


I would not want to risk it.
I had one about 20 yards from a 10" dia culvert pipe It filled that entire thing with roots.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

d_rek said:


> Hmm. I have a few mature maples within 20-30 yards of my leech field. Should I whack 'em before they become a problem?


Instead of whacking them down, I assume that is what you mean. Just rent a trencher and cut a trench and roots. That will stop them for a few years. Especially if you like the trees. Just stay closer to the field, the trees will be ok, You could also drop some pole barn steel in the trench leaving it a few inches under the grass. Sounds hoaky but seen it done.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Roots will avoid copper if you can afford it.

On the new culvert pipe I put a piece of old tubing in front on both sides. Roots would get about a foot away and then turn right around.


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