# Have we lost something along the way?



## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

Was browsing through an outdoor store over the holidays with my 80 yr. old dad who got me into shooting bows and was showing him some of the newer high tech parallel limb bows and asked what he thought of them. He looked at the fancy machined risers and the incredibly short parallel limbs and the thin intricate cams and elaborate string and cable arrangements and he said "I don't know what those are, but they are not bows". Kinda got me thinking. I started out with a golden bear recurve and moved on to a bear whitetail hunter compound and then onto a pearson spoiler compound. Recently began experimenting with a new crossbow and haven't come to a decision on it yet...definitely not as much fun to shoot as a bow but very accurate. Also definitely not a "bow". 

Anyway, seems that the newer bows don't even really look like traditional limbed bows anymore and certainly shoot much better. Carbon arrows, fancy crosshair sights, dampers, mechanical releases, $1,000 pricetags, where does it all end? Seriously thinking about getting the whitetail hunter checked out and ready to hunt again. Still have some old aluminum shafts and my old finger tab glove haha!


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Heard the same argument when "bows with training wheels came out".


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## FullQuiver (May 2, 2006)

I've killed deer with recurves, cedar arrows, wheeled bows and carbon shafts, just couldn't bring myself to shoot with a release after close to 40 years of shooting with fingers.. Didn't seem right to me but because of sudden health issues that will never get better, I started to use a crossbow, never made the jump to modern compounds because of the release and the cost.. 

I bought my Excalibur Cub for just over $300, and it looks more like a bow than a lot of the new compounds to me, and I have no regrets.. It got me back into the woods when I would have had to hang up archery hunting altogether..

If my health wouldn't have failed I never would have went away from my old Darton Viper and shooting with a tab.. Would have more likely went back to a recurve than to the more modern compounds as I had continued to shoot my old recurves (still with cedar shafts) all along just for laughs and giggles. I wasn't less than deadly with them either as you could ask the local chipmunk and gopher hordes... I just loved standing in the yard on my range and plunking arrow after arrow almost nightly into my targets with compound and recurve. I always figured I would shoot 3-5 thousand arrows a year through my equipment with lots of nights shooting 50-100 arrows with over an hour or more of practice.. (yeah it drove my wife nuts) I just liked to watch the arrows fly and hear them hit... I do miss those days...


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Are you using a Traditional Bow now to do some serious rabbit hunting ? If not, why not ? I'll bet that is something that your dad did not do a lot of. It is understood that this type of hunting is not for people that are handicapped.

L & O


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## Capt j-rod (Dec 7, 2015)

Every sport has "lost" something... I love fly fishing. I quickly became a gear head. Newest lights composites, fancy reels, new vest, best waders, sunglasses, you name it I bought it. I was working my ass off to pay the bills and picking up side jobs for the rest. One day I finally hit the stream and there was an old man fishing in the next hole up. He had rubber hip waders and an old fiberglass rod with a click reel. He was throwing black wooly boogers that he tied himself. He was catching just as many as me. We walked out together and struck up a conversation. He was 71 years old and fished any time he wanted and always had. He drove a 1978 ford pick up. None of his gear was junk, just old. His ford had barely any rust. We exchanged numbers and continued to fish together for a few years until I moved. He taught me a great lesson, I haven't bought a fly rod since then. The moral is if you spend as much time using the gear you have as you do working to pay for the latest and greatest shiny new gear, you will be happy. You love hunting not bows, I love fishing not new gear. Billions are spent in advertising to get you to spend more. The gear I have bought is either used or clearance. Believe me it works just the same. Finally give your old gear to someone who can enjoy it as much as you. I just gave away an ice rod and some cleats yesterday. It was great to see the old rod back on the ice making someone else happy. Happy New Year guys go out and use what you own and remember why we love the out doors.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Finger tabs??? Any of us old-time serious archers always shot bare-handed and developed some nice calluses. 
Shot that way for decades; but to say that this isn't a bow?








Well that is just not true in my opinion!
<----<<<


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

Joe Archer said:


> Finger tabs??? Any of us old-time serious archers always shot bare-handed and developed some nice calluses.
> Shot that way for decades; but to say that this isn't a bow?
> 
> 
> ...


How long are the "limbs" on it? Six inches? I would call it an arrow launching device! HaHa To each his own.


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## U D (Aug 1, 2012)

Sorry to break it to you. Crossbows are "bows".


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## Rasputin (Jan 13, 2009)

Joe Archer said:


> Finger tabs??? Any of us old-time serious archers always shot bare-handed and developed some nice calluses.
> Shot that way for decades; but to say that this isn't a bow?
> 
> 
> ...


I tired a release a couple times. What a disaster. I shoot using tabs, in a pinch I have used bare fingers, but I think you get better accuracy with the tabs. Maybe less friction and twist? 

When I was ready to buy a new bow a couple years ago, I went into Cabelas and told the sales guy that I wanted a new bow and that I shoot fingers, asked what he recommended. He said of all the bows he had in inventory he didn't have a single bow that he would even let me test out shooting fingers. Said he was afraid the string twist coming off my fingers would blow up the bow. Wow, didn't realize these new toys were so delicate.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> How long are the "limbs" on it? Six inches? I would call it an arrow launching device! HaHa To each his own.


Long enough to shoot way better than my previous long ATA "fingers" bow .. Darton Cyclone 








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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

Have we lost something along the way? YES, I think we have.

I can pull the shot out of a .410 shell and cram an arrow down the bore, pull the trigger and launch an arrow............that does not magically turn that shotgun into a bow. If I had my way I would have stopped the evolution of the bow at fiberglass laminated recurves..............but that's just my opinion.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

Joe Archer said:


> Long enough to shoot way better than my previous long ATA "fingers" bow .. Darton Cyclone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now thats what I call a bow.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

357Maximum said:


> Have we lost something along the way? YES, I think we have.
> 
> I can pull the shot out of a .410 shell and cram an arrow down the bore, pull the trigger and launch an arrow............that does not magically turn that shotgun into a bow. If I had my way I would have stopped the evolution of the bow at fiberglass laminated recurves..............but that's just my opinion.


If it wasn't made easier to kill a deer now, the number of hunters would be lower than they are and deer populations likely higher.

Technology is here to stay but I agree that something is lost, only if "lost", for sake of this discussion, would be equal to "changed".


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## Old Shortstop (Jun 6, 2006)

I agree that we have lost something with archery advancements. I will say that I hunt with traditional bows, recurves and longbows. I have for nearly 30 years after a short 3-4 years shooting a compound with fingers. My personal opinion is that archery/bowhunting is not supposed to be easy. It is supposed to require practice, woodsmanship and the strength of you own muscles to draw and release the arrow. A mechanically drawn device with a rifle trigger that allows someone to be "shooting" in just a few minutes is contrary to me in many ways.

Flame me all you want, but that is my opinion. As they say, everyone has one. I am all for people that lack the ability to draw a bow due to injury or the like using one, but I hate seeing it used as a shortcut.

D.P.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

sureshot006 said:


> If it wasn't made easier to kill a deer now, the number of hunters would be lower than they are and deer populations likely higher.
> 
> Technology is here to stay but I agree that something is lost, only if "lost", for sake of this discussion, would be equal to "changed".



I never said my selfish pie in the sky ain't never gonna happen anyway desires wouldn't have an unintended consequence or two. I bet one of them unintended consequences would be totally removing one or two of the most common arguments among the hunters here on this site however. 

** This message has been brought to you by a guy that has never used anything more hi-tech archery than the bow in these pictures. That same guy has used his own hand knapped chert points, homemade hickory bow and arrows made of dogwood shoots to kill deer, so his opinion is not what most would consider "mainstream"** :lol:


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Wood ,leather, wool became replaced with bakelite then plastic , poly pro ,ect..

One day in the seventies at the range a guy had a machine of a bow that clanked when he shot.
First compound we had seen. ( An Allen Speedster perhaps?)
Fast for sure ,but we dismissed it as not practical for hunting. (!). L.o.l..

We lost old equipment and some ways that were required to use it.
Onward we go. A few huntersstill go with older style gear. Others just look back and remember the softer shots and feeling of accomplishment while they still can. More all the time simply never experienced it ,so nothing is lost to them.


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## twohats (Oct 1, 2004)

I agree , everything hi-tech these days and still advancing. Crossbows that don't look like crossbows, but for someone thats disabled its truly a great thing. For some hi-tech is all they have ever known and are very content with it. Myself, I liked all the tech for a while. But a couple years ago the switch clicked and now I have gone traditional. Shooting a longbow, simple stick and string, no sights, no rest (shooting off the shelf), two blade 175gr head. Limiting my shots to 15yr or less. Haven't connected yet, did miss a doe at 13yrd. Went for a heart shot and shot just under her, really don't care for missing. It feels so much more rewarding to me , but that just me.


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## FullQuiver (May 2, 2006)

For myself I never said it was about hard or easy.. 

It's about the flight of the arrow the thunk of the bowstring on a recurve..The feeling of the feathers as you pull the arrow onto the string.. The smell of port orford cedar shafts.. The feeling of being closer to being a part of nature like the ancient archers of times of old. To slip away from this modern world if only for a moment.. To be Fred Bear or Robin Hood or Howard Hill on safari if even in my daydreams. There truly was for me a mystique in archery that is gone like a friend that has passed.. I sincerely miss being able to shoot a regular bow...


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

FullQuiver said:


> For myself I never said it was about hard or easy..
> 
> It's about the flight of the arrow the thunk of the bowstring on a recurve..The feeling of the feathers as you pull the arrow onto the string.. The smell of port orford cedar shafts.. The feeling of being closer to being a part of nature like the ancient archers of times of old. To slip away from this modern world if only for a moment.. To be Fred Bear or Robin Hood or Howard Hill on safari if even in my daydreams. There truly was for me a mystique in archery that is gone like a friend that has passed.. I sincerely miss being able to shoot a regular bow...


Yes, but I shoot a recurve and I also shoot a modern compound. I switched from fingers to a release in 2008. Up until 2016 I hunted with the "real" Darton Cyclone. 
*The distinction that I would make is that shooting a modern compound bow is still archery, and really not much different than shooting my old Darton SL-50 of the 80's.* 
Just as in automobiles; even though we all can appreciate the Model T, most of us still prefer something a bit more comfortable as well.
<----<<<


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## BlackRhino (Feb 21, 2005)

I never had a desire to shoot a stickbow or recurve. No regrets at age 51, but I much more prefer my 2016 truck over my 1978. Also through the rotary phone away quite a few years ago.
Time moves on, if some people do not want to move with it, that is entirely their prerogative. Whatever makes you happy is what you should hunt with.


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## retired dundo (Jul 21, 2015)

I think if any serious deer hunter that died in say 1970.came back to life now and walked into a. Cabella or bass pro shop he would be amazed.Just looking at all the equipment and clothes and scents we have now.


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## michael marrs (May 22, 2017)

good thread,, and I would understand the 80 year olds feelings, but we have a guy at our club who can consistintly hit a pop can with an atalatl ( I can't even spell it). Want to see some stuff, check our target equipment. stabys out the front 4 ft, out the sides both ways 2-6 power scopes ,back tension release, , and you still have an archer behind the bow


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## michael marrs (May 22, 2017)

I think all sports have done this, I doubt there are many deer hunters,( I know there are some with smooth bore ball and patch guns, and iron sights, I ice fish a lot, and would not think of going out without my vexilar. Look at todays muzzleloaders. composite stocks, rifled barrels, scopes, ( I have one), but ,, things change , not knocking any of them


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

I think it's funny when guys profess how much practice it takes to shoot a modern compound. To me its not much different than crossbows.
This year I am planning on going back to the challenge of my longbow. I can literally take my not so modern compound out of its case after 6 months of storage (a 15ish year old browning ambush), and hit a fifty cent piece at 30 yds... that does not happen with a real bow!
I'm looking forward to killing a few more deer with the real stick and string in the next few years, and the daily practice it will require.


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## Barothy (Jan 17, 2007)

I started in the 70's with a recurve moved into a compound sometime in the 80's. My children bought me a crossbow for my 50th birthday in 2011. I have enjoyed them all.


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## imjon (Apr 6, 2007)

I'm wondering about the ages of the posters. I've noticed as I got older and richer I was less likely to resist the new tech that comes out, while feeling nostalgia for the older things, but not really missing some of their drawbacks.
I do miss shooting my bow often, as was said it was really a great feeling to shoot the bow often just for the sheer pleasure of shooting, but age and other problems do take that option away at some point.
My crossbow is nice, but once it's hitting where I want there isn't any reason to shoot it because I'm not keeping my arm and fingers in bow condition with a crossbow.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

imjon said:


> I'm wondering about the ages of the posters. I've noticed as I got older and richer I was less likely to resist the new tech that comes out, while feeling nostalgia for the older things, but not really missing some of their drawbacks.
> I do miss shooting my bow often, as was said it was really a great feeling to shoot the bow often just for the sheer pleasure of shooting, but age and other problems do take that option away at some point.
> My crossbow is nice, but once it's hitting where I want there isn't any reason to shoot it because I'm not keeping my arm and fingers in bow condition with a crossbow.


Exactly! It takes about as much practice with a modern day compound as it did back in the day with the old Darton SL-50! We don't really NEED to shoot as much as we do, but we shoot as much as we do because *we enjoy archery*. And by comparison, shooting a crossbow isn't archery. The movement away from archery - to me, that is what is lost when you go to a crossbow.
<----<<<


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## Capt j-rod (Dec 7, 2015)

It's a double edged sword. Employers are pretty ruthless when it comes to time off, deadlines, lay-offs etc. They "give" you vacation, but then get angry when you take it. Technology has helped reduce the amount of practice and hours in the woods and on the water. Technology costs money which requires more work. Retirees are free to roam provided they were able to shelter their investments and have the means. As I said, billions are spent in advertising to make you "need" the next big thing. There is definitely a curve when it comes to "solid" equipment. I hate the fact that two years ago's biggest baddest $1000 item is now "old". I'm 40, so I've got plenty of gear for all my hobbies. I shoot a Bear Truth 2. It is plenty fast and very accurate. I just don't see the $1000 difference in the newest bow. I'm due for a new phone, but I can't stomach $750 for a damn phone that has a 2 year lifespan? I install hot water heaters for that much that are good for at least 10 years. The trusty bear still flings arrows, my rods still catch fish, and the flasher still marks fish. I always tell younger guys to look for quality and buy last years "best" for half price. Now as for re-curves, long bows, etc... That's for you retired guys who have the time to practice. I focus most on more time out doing what I like rather than more time working to pay for new and shiny.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I have shot recurves and longbows for over 45 years. Never had an issue of didn't have enough time to practice. Some days I shot more then others , then there where days I didn't shot at all. So nobody can use the excuse, I don't have time. It's that they just want easier. Same for hunting, some guys scout year round. Learn the terrain and how deer move. Other guys just walk as far as they can carry a bag of carrots, toss them down and wait. To each his own and we are not going to stop the other person. It's up to that person to know when technology has gone too far. And put the challenge back into the hunt. If you want a challenge then ask yourself ,Which takes more skill as a hunter, a guy hunting with a simple stick and string hunting public land over sign or A guy sitting in a heated shack on private land over a bait pile or food plot with a xbow or 300 win mag. To me the answer is obvious.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

stickbow shooter said:


> I have shot recurves and longbows for over 45 years. Never had an issue of didn't have enough time to practice. Some days I shot more then others , then there where days I didn't shot at all. So nobody can use the excuse, I don't have time. It's that they just want easier. .



Exactly right I say. Personally I have shot sticks and curves since I was about 6-7 yrs old, never once have I seen it as a chore. In fact I have a lighted range for shooting bows and slingshots after work or if I get the urge in the late evening. I do not call it practice though, I call it therapy. It is a really good way to wash away the stress of the day. I would launch wood/bamboo arrows and little rubber propelled lead/steel round balls even if I did not hunt with the bows or homemade slingshots. I make the time, it's not all that difficult to find that half hour to an hour a night if it is what you TRULY want to do. When your mind is concentrated on that foam target or that can you are ripping apart, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I kinda feel a bit sorry for the guys that see "practice" as something they have to do to kill a deer. Honing the ability to kill a deer with my toys is just an added side benefit of my therapy I guess. Not sure I will need the therapy once I retire, but I bet I still do it. The day that ripping back a slingshot or a bow and letting loose a flying projectile loses it's charm, is the day I simply quit and take up knitting I guess. It saddens me how many folks feel that primitive/traditional archery is something they cannot do or don't have time for. I feel that if they were ever to actually try it, they might just find how much fun just shooting for the sake of shooting can be, and when it's fun you do not have to be retired to find the time. They are missing out and that is sad in my book. To each their own and to each their own excuses though I guess. The folks that make televisions love the excuses and lifestyle though I bet.


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## Capt j-rod (Dec 7, 2015)

Sorry to trash your thread... As you were gents.


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

I used to be a massive archery gear head. Several new flagship bows every year, decked out with sights with 2nd, 3rd axis, fall away arrow rest, hinge releases, 15" stablizers, 12" side bars, all for shooting at an animal that was more than likely going to be no farther than 12yds. 1,000.00 camo outfits that didn't make me any warmer, range finders, etc.

About 8 years ago I simply said enough. Went all in on traditional archery. I've now developed a balance between trad and compound, but brought alot of the simplicity aspects of trad over to my compound setup. Simple one pin sight, quality arrow rest(still a drop away), no stablizers, no lights, cheapest carbon arrows I can find, broadheads that can be resharpened and used over and over and over and over again. I haven't killed a deer with my compound in the last 8 years but I have managed to watch a ton. Seems now I can't bring myself to even take the bow off the hook when I see a deer when I have my compound. My longbow on the other hand...as long as it's legal and in range...no doubt. I've managed to put down several does and this year put down my first buck with trad gear. 

I'm wearing plaid wool for camo, earth tone colored hats and gloves, in fact I think the only thing with a commercial camo pattern that I take out into the woods are my lacrosse boots and my Horn Hunter pack...and I only use that pack because it's waterproof and has a nice quiet, velvet finish. 

I still consider myself young at 35...Now I did get a new bow here in December, but it's a nice clean bow with no frills, bells, whistles, etc...it looks like a bow, not like a pile of crap with a PSE sticker on it. I do doubt however that it'll ever take a game animal for me.


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## imjon (Apr 6, 2007)

Capt j-rod said:


> . I shoot a Bear Truth 2. It is plenty fast and very accurate. I just don't see the $1000 difference in the newest bow. I'm due for a new phone, but I can't stomach $750 for a damn phone that has a 2 year lifespan?


Couple of things. Check the unlocked phones out, unless you want the latest phone you can get one lots cheaper. Other places like Best Buy are also carrying them. Here's just one on Amazon.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=unlocked+cell+phones&t=ffsb
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=unlocked+cell+phones&t=ffsb










My bow before my fractured disk was a Bear. About $350 and really a very good bow. I really miss shooting it because it was so enjoyable.


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## BlackRhino (Feb 21, 2005)

If it is challenge thing, go for it. No treestands, flint broadhead, whatever they made shafts out of, deer skin clothing and then cancel your cell/internet and buy a horse to travel to your destination.


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

BlackRhino said:


> If it is challenge thing, go for it. No treestands, flint broadhead, whatever they made shafts out of, deer skin clothing and then cancel your cell/internet and buy a horse to travel to your destination.


You should not be talking dirty like that.


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