# More flies with honey than vinegar



## Paul C (Nov 27, 2001)

First let me start of by saying I have been a member of this site since August 2001. (including last account). I have learned alot and greatly appreciate this site. Before I came here I had already started my self procaimed "re-introduction" to the outdoors. I set myself a few simple goals in the hopes to be a better outdoorsman and have fun along the way.

#1) Earn a master anglers patch (didn't happen but I had fun)
#2) Learn to fly fish (rented several videos and started researching for next season)
#3) Start hunting again and kill (harvest) a deer. No rack needed I want venison.
#4) Practice being a good stewart to the outdoors (cleaning up trash etc etc)
#5) Participate in as many different hunting / fishing seasons and types as possible

I basically wanted to further my knowledge and become a well rounded sportsman. Lately I have been put off to anything and everything to do with fly fishing. Do not take this wrong I am not attacking any flyfishers or anything. It is just that people are so forcefull with their opinions which makes beginners or people who were interested very uneasy about continuing the pursuit. I have not participated in the c&r issue or flies only. I have no intention to. I also don't want to be on a stream or a river trying to strangle myself with a fly rod learning how to fish and have one of these over bearing highly opinionated people attack me like I have seen on this site. If I were to sucessfully and legally catch a fish I may want to eat it. I will also say that I enjoy the rush of catching fish. Am I a poor sportsman... I don't consider myself one. I stay within all laws and truthfully that is my main and only concern as a novice learning the ropes. 

What it all boils down to is this. There are probably others like myself who have never fly fished yet have a desire to do so. With all of the hateful posts and name calling, belittlement (sp?) it doesn't help turn people on to the sport of fly fishing. It is just too much aggrivation for something that is supposed to be relaxing


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## Neapolis (Apr 22, 2000)

Well said.


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## Sarge (Apr 25, 2000)

I too, have pondered fly fishing and been turned off by the bullies that *seem * to be the majority of fly fishermen. the majority who sound off at least.

It seems like every sport in the great outdoors has a few who think they are purists and who are really just elitists and therefore bullies. 

I'm sure that my views on the most humane way to harvest deer look that way to new hunters (maybe even bow hunters). Personally, I give new hunters and youth hunters every benefit of the doubt. Its the guy who talks like he's been a deer hunter for fifteen years having to track a deer for miles and calling it "a good hit" that turns my stomach. 

Back to the elitists which I hope I'm not one. If you guys lighten up, more folks will become one of you. Or is that the point, you are so far above that you don't want others around??


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## GreatLakesOutfitters (Dec 22, 2000)

Why do we fly-fisherman get labeled like that. There are bullies that tell you it's a sin to kill an animal Do you let that stop you from hunting?
Yes I'm sure there are people that could care less if you get into something that they been doing for years. But not all of us.
Keep at it Paul, if you need any help let me know.
[email protected]


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## Paul C (Nov 27, 2001)

I never used elitist in my post on purpose I was not throwing a "label" out. 

Chad,
If I mention hunting or I am all dressed up on my way and someone says something "which I have yet to experience" They are usually not forceful in their opinion. The usually just agree to disagree and leave it alone


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## quix20 (Jan 14, 2001)

i have to agree with paul. i have been trying to fly fish now for just over a year. I have yet to really hit the rivers with my fly rod, i have only used it on my in-laws pond. but with all that is being said *I* feel that if i was to show up on a river with my fly rod that i would be laughed off of the stream or looked down upon because i kept a couple of fish (*if legal in the area i am fishing* ). I dont want to be looked down upon because of anything i do, especially if i enjoy it.

and to GREAT LAKES OUTFITTERS, please dont take this the wrong way, i know that you put on another post about why fly fishing is thought of as an expensive sport by certain guys. I can tell you that yes, some members of this site have all of the "big water" gear that you mentioned in that post. but they also have the fly fishing gear too. I think it is an expensive sport because if you want to get the decent gear (not top of the line, but middle to lower end) you have to pay an arm and a leg for it. here is a list of the prices that i have seen for the "cheaper" not end of the line products.

6wt fly rod-$100-150
reel-$30
wf6 floating line-$35
tippet-$5
vest-$30
box of flies-$20
trout stamp-$14
*TOTAL-$284* 

and this isnt including the waders that you really need for most rivers.

for this price i can go out and buy a spinning rod or two, a nice reel, some hardware or bait, and still be under that price.

like i said please dont be offended or upset with what i am saying, but i dont know if some understand why others call it an expensive sport.


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## Woolybugger (Feb 26, 2001)

I understand how Paul feels. Walk into most fly shops with the 0 limit stuff all over the place and you would feel very uncomfortable even thinking about keeping fish around these guys. I fished the S. branch of the Au Sable a couple times this summer and caught keeper size fish in the limit 1 section. I didn't even consider keeping these fish because I didn't want to deal with the stares or get into it with anyone. You can see how touchy this subject is here. Like I wrote before, I think it is worse to put someone down for fishing within the limits of the law than not adhearing to C&R. This is completely separate from the ethical discussion of C&R vs C&E.


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## GreatLakesOutfitters (Dec 22, 2000)

You are complaining about spending 284.00 on a fly setup?
You need a trout stamp anywhere you fish for trout.
I'll be willing to bet that some of the guys that are bigwater fisherman could not comprehend standing in a river to catch a 10in brown.
Most of those guys are not also fly fisherman.
If $284.00 is your arguement, then every one of you that own a boat (no matter how big) are just a bunch of Rich Guys!
Come-on quix that's a bad explanation. 
Now tell me again why it's a rich mans sport.
Most of us are just passionate about our fly-fishing and we buy the good stuff.
[email protected]


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## Paul C (Nov 27, 2001)

Chad,

Not everyone has a boat. I don't have a boat nor can I afford one at this time. If I were to purchase a boat in the near future it would most likely be a used row boat. If you count the money I spent this year to fish I would be WELL under $150.00 

Cheap baitcaster ($35.00 but it was a B-day present)
Lures ($30.00 out of my pocket)
Minnow Bucket ($5.00 My pocket)
Sticker for Brandenberg Park ($12.00)
worms and minnows during the season ($30.00 that is a high guess)

There may be a few other things I have bought.. dollar here dollar there but you can see that it is my poor mans sport.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

That would make deer hunting look like a very rich man's sport believe me!


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## quix20 (Jan 14, 2001)

i agree that most who can afford a big boat or any boat for that matter can more than afford fly fishing gear.

but i am not one of those guys. i do not have a boat, i drive a very very bad looking 84 toyota truck that i need a tetnus shot just to look at and i can not afford to spend that kind of money on a fly fishing outfit. believe me if i could afford to get a sage rod, billy pate reel and all of the fancy EXPENSIVE things just for trout fishing i would because i enjoy fishing for them immensely, but i cant so i am stuck with a outfit that i bought used from someone for under $100, or the $20 piece of crap outfit i bought from walmart last year that no one can cast.

dont get me wrong for the people who can afford to buy these things to complain about the prices when they have the $20,000 boat and truck sitting in the driveway is wrong. but for the new guy who wants to get into it which do you think they will do??


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## Mike (Nov 26, 2000)

Anything you do in the outdoors is going to be as expensive/inexpensive as you want it to be. Don't let what someone else might think about your equipment stop you from enjoying yourself. If that's the way you percieve things (that's not directed at anyone in particular!) find something else to do. 

Compared to everything else, I really don't feel fly fishing is that expensive. Hell, I've got more wrapped up in ice-fishing equipment.

Mike


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## JWF (Jun 25, 2001)

About fly fishing being a rich's man sport, I think that perception stems from the prices of fly gear to conventional tackle. I think that an "expensive" spinning rod would run about $80.00, and a good spinning reel can be had for around $50.00. However, the minimum fly gear generally recommended for steelhead would be at least $130.00 for a machined, disk drag reel and $150.00 for an 8 wt rod (reddington, st croix imperial, etc.) That's almost $300 right there. A few years ago, when I did not fly fish, I did not imagine that I would spend $300 for a rod alone. Now that I prefer to fly fish for alot of my fishing, $300 for a rod does not seem like that much, especially when the top models can be $600+.

It is expensive, but it is not a rich man's sport. It's all relative. Especially when you compare the cost to that of a fully rigged, big water boat.


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

Paul C. I'm out of work and have tons of time. If you pop for a bean burrito or two at Taco Bell, I'll help you out in fly fishing in any way I can. My suggestion is to let someone who knows teach you some casting strokes before you get rolling because, just like golf, bad technique habits are very hard to break. I spent my first years fly fishing with a very inexpensive yellow fly rod, then graduated to a second hand Cortland kit of that new wonder material, graphite! My pals busted my chops over that expensive $50.00 set up back then. Yessir, I was the King of yuppies because of that high priced rig! Since I sold that kit, four other people have become hooked on the sport through it. If I've learned nothing else in the last 20 years, I've learned that you can't please everyone so just please yourself. 
I laughed at the 'purists' who only fly fish. Don't ask me why, I can't tell you, but I am one of those who prefer fly fishing over any other form of fishing now. Something happens to you and it just takes over some people. I enjoy every single aspect of fly fishing from the tying to the releasing. I do not look down on or push my views on anyone concerning HOW they like to fish but am guilty of being too willing to hand them a fly rod to try. A few of us get together at lakes here in S/E Michigan after work and some fly fish and some spin cast. Do you think whoever got into a fish grinned any less because of the method they used? Fishing is fun. THAT is the #1 reason I do it! Some of us fly fishers are just as passionate about what we do as gun owners are about what they do. Without that passion I wouldn't bother to post. If you take offense to someone sticking up for what they like, just remember how passionate gun owners can be. It is the same thing basically.
Now, what do you have to say about the guys who look at you like you have three eyes because you release a bass, or the Darrell and Darrell brothers who got the better part of the deal when I said they could have the spawned-out salmon that was barely able to stay in one piece long enough to get my stonefly back. These types are just as bad as those who glare at you for keeping a legal fish. I would never infringe on your rights to keep legal fish, ever!
Take me up on that burrito offer. You might thank me because fly fishing IS all it's cranked up to be.
P.S. I can think of no better time than when I was on the Rogue and two snot-nosed yuppiettes crowded my corner bragging about their Sage rods. I humbly showed them my Cortland and proceeded to make tons of happy noises as I fought each fish while they went fishless!!! One of the guys in my club won the T.U. sporting flys competition with a $45.00 rod. It ain't so much the gear as it is the motor!


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## GreatLakesOutfitters (Dec 22, 2000)

I think everyone makes a good point here. 
Believe me ever since I bought this store I have seen it all. I don't ever tell someone that the way they fish is wrong. Unless it's against the law. 
Paul, I'll put you on the payment plan if you want to learn to fly fish.
It's very simple to take in
Call me Young Jedi
[email protected]
(810)984-3232


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## Paul C (Nov 27, 2001)

Jackster thanks for the post. I do not get offended or upset when hearing someones viewpoint even if they are passionate. I can respect passionate. Infact if someone is truly passionate about something it makes me even more curious about the thing they are passionate about. With that said many pass of their "down your throat" attitudes ad passion. Once again I am by no means pointing anyone out or name calling. I may take you up on that offer jackster of course that is after I take Chad up on his. *this thread is an example of it's own title* If people could debate with out resorting to the terrible methods they do many others would be DRAWN to this rather then put off. I am glad that this post did not get ugly like many have lately

p.s. thanks chad, jackster


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## JStarbrite (Apr 3, 2000)

Jackster's comparison of flyfishing to golf has a lot of merit. 

Golf is supposed to be a relaxing sport, but I see golfers wrapping clubs around trees and throwing their bags in the water.

Golf is an expensive sport, but you can play cheaply if you try.

Golf takes some skill that must be learned. Bad habits are hard to break.

Golfers can sometimes be viewed as 'snobs', but the majority are just ordinary folks.

Golf is an addictive sport. Once hooked you will want to upgrade your equipment, golf exotic locations and will probably play for life.

Another merit to Jackster's post- most flyfishers will go out of their way to help a novice learn the sport.


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## fishinlk (Apr 14, 2000)

I understand the labels that are put on fly fisherman as a rich mans game and elitest oh so well. Like most groups its the vocal minority that does the most damage but certain fly shops don't help the cause either. A certain shop owner who's an icon in the grayling area watched my buddy and I like we were a couple of would be shop lifters until I plunked down $300+ on hackle. I have had others tell me of the same treatment. If they didn't look and act like they were ready to drop big bucks they were treated like second class people. I've experienced this in different fly shops around the country.
I don't often get offended by the stereotyping that goes on with fly fishing. I just try my best to show another side and change peoples views. I've shown people how to tie at my campsite, I give fly's to people on the river, help inexperienced spin fisherman read the water. The positive actions that we show an individual will often balance or overide an ill gotten opinion based on a chance encounter with the snob on the water or in a store.


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## badcast (Mar 11, 2000)

No-one has mentioned building their own rods as a way to get into fly fishing. Saves a ton. You can build that high-end rod that costs $400 of the rack for a around $275. A middle of the packer that retails at $150 for about $100. Find a sale on the lower end stuff and build one for everyone over a few years time for about $60-$80 a rod. Less for some. 

Great Lakes, hope you sell blanks and supplies.


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## JStarbrite (Apr 3, 2000)

Good point badcast. Michigan Flyfishing Club teaches rod building at no charge beside the $35 membership fee. You get a group discount on materials and use of specialized equipment. Check them out at mffc.org.


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