# Are you happy with the season dates?



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

orion said:


> I dont believe it to be too early to start this discussion, I am hearing many complaints now and since it is on your front burner, Now is the time to ask. Its quite tough to get good feedback in the two weeks after the flyway council meeting and the CWAC. Now is your time to speak, so take full advantage in letter form via E-mail. I cannot speak to the zones and why they are the way they are. Send your creativity to me, with emphasis on early to late openers. Thanks



Will do, but first I really need someone (don't care who) to point us to the federal regs framework. No point in coming up with all kinds of pie in the sky ideas if they are completely outside the federal guidelines. State guidelines...I can deal with battling those. But I constantly get the response "the feds will never buy that". So someone...anyone...please provide a link or scan in the guidelines that Michigan has to abide by.


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

Open the season the second weekend in October. Hunt 14 days, then close it until Veteran's Day (2nd Monday in November). The season would then run right up to Christmas. Get rid of the 2 day deal in January as well. 

That would be absolutely perfect. 

I'll deal with the ice. I won't deal with 73 degree days in October. 


BFG


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

BFG said:


> Open the season the second weekend in October. Hunt 14 days, then close it until Veteran's Day (2nd Monday in November). The season would then run right up to Christmas. Get rid of the 2 day deal in January as well.
> 
> That would be absolutely perfect.
> 
> ...


A "one size fits all" approach is just not realistic for Michigan due to our geography, and differences in bird movement west to east, and north to south. We were in North Dakota from Halloween to Nov. 6th, and Shiawassee was on fire then. Your proposal would've locked it up. So once again, things vary so widely here in Michigan that we need to get creative based on our variables...my two cents.


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

Southern Lower, Northern Lower. Isn't that the way it used to be?????

I hunt in the South, so I should have indicated that was my wish for the bottom portion of the state. 

Let the Northern Lower open the first weekend in October and run straight through if you want. 

Ohio has north and south zones which open on the same date (Oct 20th this year) but the south was only open for 14 days, and it's closed until December 22nd. 

My friends that live down there couldn't be happier about those dates, as they get all of Janurary to hunt. BTW...it works out pretty good for them...


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

I would like to see the SLP season reversed. Open for 2 days to satisfy the early migrator hunters at the usual dates. Then close it for 2 or 3 weeks and run it for the balance of the 58 days.

Everyone would be happy. The guys that only hunt the opener would be happy. The casual hunter would essentially get 2 openers and the hard-core hunters could hunt to almost Christmas. We might get froze out a few years, but most years we would get in on the migration--plus we would get rid of that worthless 2 day season in January.

TNL


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

BFG said:


> Southern Lower, Northern Lower. Isn't that the way it used to be?????
> ...


Yeah, but what I'm asking is why??? Northern Lower from west to east varies a lot in not only habitat and bird movement, but weather. Heck, NW lower gets a lot of lake effect storms that we don't get in central or eastern lower Michigan. If you talk to waterfowlers from NW lower Michigan, or even SW lower Michigan, they often have completely different bird movements than NE or SE lower Michigan, or the bay. So why don't we talk about some different, creative way of revamping the zone lines here? That's really what I'm saying.


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## thedude (Jul 20, 2004)

my feelings on an early split vs. late split:
indiana has one for thier north zone and it sucks. Its just a waste of days for the most part. guys go out and shoot their local mallards and wood ducks for 7 days... then it closes and reopens the end of oct and we go out and shoot the same local mallards and wood ducks again until mid-nov. 

the late split in MI on the otherhand is great. TRUE - it might be -20 out, not all that likely, but most of the time there is some open water somewhere, the birds are SUPER condensed haven't been hunted in several weeks and there is the chance to have some really stellar hunts for local honkers and those huge, beautiful greenheads that hang around that time of year - both at the same time. 


just push the SLP season back 1 week. thats only 7 days. 7 fewer days of pressuring the local great lakes populations and 7 more days of prospecting in December. 

i know its a gamble that we might freeze up, BUT - its also a gamble trying to guess when the migration will peak and the odds of that happening in the first 2 weeks of oct are slim to none.

if the sag bay hunters don't like it, shift the NLP zone south 10 miles and make the bay part of that... its ridiculous that our season is dictated by the bay which is north of 90% of the NLP/SLP boundary. Give the NLP an oct 6 start date. and SLP oct 13 or even oct 20


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## thedude (Jul 20, 2004)

just ducky said:


> Yeah, but what I'm asking is why??? Northern Lower from west to east varies a lot in not only habitat and bird movement, but weather. Heck, NW lower gets a lot of lake effect storms that we don't get in central or eastern lower Michigan. If you talk to waterfowlers from NW lower Michigan, or even SW lower Michigan, they often have completely different bird movements than NE or SE lower Michigan, or the bay. So why don't we talk about some different, creative way of revamping the zone lines here? That's really what I'm saying.


thats a good point too... some people forget that the guys on the west side have a giant humidifier right next to them. Temps around GR are often warmer than areas around chicago in late Nov/Dec and early Jan because of the heating effects we get from the big lake and the predominate SW/W winds.


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## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

duckhunter382 said:


> I would like to see a week or so of the firearms deer season closed so we could get an extra week or so in december. alot of people are busy trying to get a deer instead of duck hunting anyway why not hunt more in december when the birds are actually here.


The season closed on Nov 14 and reopened on the day after thanksgiving for quite a few years. The hunting was very good for the "second opener" unless we had a hard freeze, which does happen. I'd like to see two 7- 10 day breaks during the season. The birds (mostly mallards) are stressed from being pounded and become nocturnal. They need a break. We would hold birds longer and the hunting in general would be better. In other words 20 days in oct, nov, dec as long as we have 60 days. If we have a 45 day season take away a week in oct and one in dec. I would cut the mallard season to 30 days until the mallard pop. increases. The people setting the seasons have no idea what their doing.


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## thedude (Jul 20, 2004)

everlast1 said:


> The season closed on Nov 14 and reopened on the day after thanksgiving for quite a few years. The hunting was very good for the "second opener" unless we had a hard freeze, which does happen. I'd like to see two 7- 10 day breaks during the season. The birds (mostly mallards) are stressed from being pounded and become nocturnal. They need a break. We would hold birds longer and the hunting in general would be better. In other words 20 days in oct, nov, dec as long as we have 60 days. I would cut the mallard season to 30 days until the mallard pop. increases.


the feds regulate the splits - we can only have one and we use it for the January season. so we could move that to anywhere, but could never close/reopen more than once. There is a completely different framework for setting the seasons on geese however - hence the multitude of GMUs/quotas and season splits for different populations.


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

My guess is that with a dwindling economy, the powers that be want to attempt to provide season dates that would promote the most license sales from the "occasional hunter"...

That being opening it up when it's 90 degrees and closing it down when the temps approach freezing. 

I would gather that I shoot 90% of my birds in the last 2 weeks of the season in both OH and MI every year. I might add that nearly all of that hunting is done on public water. 

I like the third weekend in October opener. Let 'er ride right up to Christmas that way...and forget the 2 days in January. 

BFG


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## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

thedude said:


> the feds regulate the splits - we can only have one and we use it for the January season. so we could move that to anywhere, but could never close/reopen more than once. There is a completely different framework for setting the seasons on geese however - hence the multitude of GMUs/quotas and season splits for different populations.


Yea I know that. I've been doing this for 40 years. They used to take away days if you split. This is what happens when the people (feds) making the rules have no idea what their doing. These birds get pounded from sept. to feb. with little or no rest days. Splits would benefit the birds and hunters. We should have had a flyway 30 day season on mallard 5 years ago. We would have a much healthier mallard pop.


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## thedude (Jul 20, 2004)

BFG said:


> My guess is that with a dwindling economy, the powers that be want to attempt to provide season dates that would promote the most license sales from the "occasional hunter"...
> 
> That being opening it up when it's 90 degrees and closing it down when the temps approach freezing.


when taking things into account for the "occasional hunter" - they have to buy a license so as long as they hunt once what does it matter if the season closes early? The 3rd week of oct is usually just as nice as the 2nd as far as weather goes... .as long as its not during deer season, the occasional guys will show up and hunt the openers like they do every year. Most of them probably don't even know about cwac or how the season is set.. they just show up on opening day like they have every year.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

everlast1 said:


> Yea I know that. I've been doing this for 40 years. They used to take away days if you split. This is what happens when the people (feds) making the rules have no idea what their doing. These birds get pounded from sept. to feb. with little or no rest days. Splits would benefit the birds and hunters. We should have had a flyway 30 day season on mallard 5 years ago. We would have a much healthier mallard pop.


seriously....calling the feds clueless is kinda comical. "we should have a 30 day mallard season" .........everlast1....do some homework before you come up with this oddball stuff.

The feds are doing a great job, its on the state level that the problems exist. There is plenty of mallards to support a long season. There is a shortage in michigan mallards....that is why the season needs moved more than anything. Our poor locals get absolutely decimated for 3 weeks. Please everlast, come to our refuge and watch it closely and tell me theres so few mallards we need a 30 day season? lol comon.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

Please send a letter to John regarding your wishes. The more ammo he has, the more his voice will be heard. If nothing else, it's only 2 minutes of your time and you'll know that at least you tried.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

BFG said:


> My guess is that with a dwindling economy, the powers that be want to attempt to provide season dates that would promote the most license sales from the "occasional hunter"...
> 
> That being opening it up when it's 90 degrees and closing it down when the temps approach freezing.
> 
> ...


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## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> seriously....calling the feds clueless is kinda comical. "we should have a 30 day mallard season" .........everlast1....do some homework before you come up with this oddball stuff.
> 
> The feds are doing a great job, its on the state level that the problems exist. There is plenty of mallards to support a long season. There is a shortage in michigan mallards....that is why the season needs moved more than anything. Our poor locals get absolutely decimated for 3 weeks. Please everlast, come to our refuge and watch it closely and tell me theres so few mallards we need a 30 day season? lol comon.


 What you call alot of birds and what I call alot of birds are too entirely different things.  Tell me what a great job the feds done in 10 years when there is no season. The fed and the state, is like the blind leading the blind. I have worked with both, I know what I'm talking about. And yea I know all about MI mallard, we have been in a dry cycle in this state and Ontario since 98', all the more reason to layoff of them for a few years. Not just MI, the whole flyway. Since we are'nt the only ones shooting Mi mallards. Ohio, Kentucky, Tennesee, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas etc. etc. Please I've played this game alot longer and in alot more places.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

everlast1 said:


> What you call alot of birds and what I call alot of birds are too entirely different things.  Tell me what a great job the feds done in 10 years when there is no season. The fed and the state, is like the blind leading the blind. I have worked with both, I know what I'm talking about. And yea I know all about MI mallard, we have been in a dry cycle in this state and Ontario since 98', all the more reason to layoff of them for a few years. Not just MI, the whole flyway. Since we are'nt the only ones shooting Mi mallards. Ohio, Kentucky, Tennesee, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas etc. etc. Please I've played this game alot longer and in alot more places.


everlast1...you might start by putting some info in your personal bio so we know something about you. No I'm not running a personal dating service :evilsmile, but how are we to know that you have been so invovled and experienced...heck, we don't even know how old you are? 

I won't get into a pissing match between you and anyone else, and I'm not doubting what you say, but I can personally vouch for Shiawassee Kid because I know him well, and his Dad for that matter, and there aren't many, if any, young guys in their 30's with more knowledge or ability than Dan. Basically he was born on the Shiawassee Flats with a duck call in his mouth. So before you start making statements like _"I've played this game alot longer and in alot more places"_ give us some background to go by.


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## dizzzyduck (Aug 16, 2007)

Seeing that the duck migration does not start for good flights until the middle of December I think we need to adjust our duck season to start later or longer. 90 percent of people do not hunt every day only on weekends, so it just goes to reason that we lengthen duck season and not go by 1950's models, the ducks have adjusted their migration. Early goose is the same, two weeks when almost everybody hunts weekends. Why do we pay people to round up geese and pay trucks to ship them when we could lengthen the season? I would rather keep the money for our natural resources and not waste it on greyhound fair for ganders. If the local goose population is a problem let those who hunt them, hunt longer. It's simple spend money or let the hunters do the work. No person on a lake would complain if our early goose lasted a month. If townships want to keep hunters off lakes then they should be the ones paying the vacation trip for these geese not the hunters. It seems as though everybody likes dipping their hand in the DNR's money but not giving into it so our managed areas have no water in them. Maybe I'm also the only one that thinks we should have wind driven pumps constantly pumping water into managed areas from Sept. on.........While I'm on a rant how about blasting potholes in some of these marshes? Instead of building more boat ramps we should open up these areas with a little bit of fireworks. Start with the Allegan marshes and that other fully useless one, the St. johns.I bet even DU would fund it with their money and people. I really don't expect this to go anywhere because chapters have said this all before.  The best thing hunters can do is contact Lansing to get new thinkers running DNR, ones to keep the hunters money to fund wildlife projects using current models not goose vacations.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

everlast1 said:


> What you call alot of birds and what I call alot of birds are too entirely different things.  Tell me what a great job the feds done in 10 years when there is no season. The fed and the state, is like the blind leading the blind. I have worked with both, I know what I'm talking about. And yea I know all about MI mallard, we have been in a dry cycle in this state and Ontario since 98', all the more reason to layoff of them for a few years. Not just MI, the whole flyway. Since we are'nt the only ones shooting Mi mallards. Ohio, Kentucky, Tennesee, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas etc. etc. Please I've played this game alot longer and in alot more places.


Put your numbers up. I know the numbers. mallard pop is as good or bad as it was 10 years ago. If we got water on the breeding grounds, liberal season is in order. If we don't then the season comes down. Bottom line is....right now we have 30-40 thousand birds using just the shi flats. If you add them up plus what we got sitting in fish pt. ny pt and harsens.......those are just refuge birds......seriously show me where there is any reason to push the season to 30 days by account of bird numbers. 

Now if you want to talk local mallards and how to curb their decline....then i'll listen to your "season" adjustment ideas.

I don't care how long you been hunting.....its a good bet that i've been going at it almost as long and i'm half your age. I've hunted about 6 states on the flyway. Right now i can't say that i've seen more birds than in this season....maybe last year as exception and that was because of an early cold push.


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## jdawg240 (Oct 1, 2007)

We need a later season in zone 3. I dont even get seriuos about ducks until after gun season opens for deer. Who wants to hunt in Oct when it's a million degrees outside? Why not a split season?? Have a early wood duck and teal season then a late regular duck season? They do this in a few states out west with great succes now. Ive lost several hunting partners as well my dad due to poor duck numbers. Guys dont want to duck hunt anymore around here. No birds until ice up it seems like. Then the season closes and I see hundreds of mallards all over the place.


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## orion (Apr 8, 2002)

I have now received 13 letters with seven individuals signing one of them. They are very well written and exactly what I need. Thank you so much to those who have written. Those who have not written, get to it! I need all I can get to take to the CWAC meetings. Keep them coming. Like I said before posting on here will keep the thread going, but you must send a letter to get your voice heard at the meeting. I need your name and where you live and hunt. This way it shows where and who wants these changes. The DNR brings their information and it says the opposite of what I here from you guys here. 
Thanks again to all who have written, it shows you care
John


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

I just emailed this to you Orion...

Attention DNR:
I am a resident of northern Ohio, living just 25 miles from the OH/MI line. I am an avid outdoorsman, enjoying most of my leisure activities in the state of Michigan. I routinely fish Lake Michigan and Lake Erie from Michigan ports nearly year round. I am also an avid waterfowler, hunting mainly in SE Michigan on Lake Erie, and at State Game Areas such as Pointe Mouillee, as well as traveling to Muskegon Wastewater and the Todd Farm in Allegan County. To be honest, I spend 90% of my outdoor monies in your State, and I appreciate greatly the opportunity to experience the outdoors with my family in Michigan. I also teach part time at Monroe County Community College near Monroe, Michigan. 
The reason I am writing today is in regard to the waterfowl season dates that are currently established. Having hunted waterfowl for more than 15 years, I have witnessed a change in the migration habits of these birds over this time. What used to be has now changed. Starting the lower peninsula duck season this year on October 6th was an absolute disaster. The first weekend in October is too early for a waterfowl opener. 
A better solution would be to open the third weekend in October, then run the season right up to Christmas every year. These dates would hit the migration right on the head, as it has become increasingly frustrating over the last few years to witness the peak of the migration of birds through SE Michigan and Lake Erie occur the week before Christmas. The two day "split" in January is not worth the effort, as it usually accompanies the New Year Holiday weekend (this year is does not for once). These two days would be better served being added back to the original season dates (in my proposal that would end up being in December). 
Fortunately, I also hunt in Ohio. To be brutally honest, the hunting was outstanding in Ohio over the last few seasons in December. It also pains me to think of all of the tremendous gunning that Michigan waterfowlers are missing by having their season close so early. I would think it would also pain someone to know that monies that could be spent in your State are being spent elsewhere. 
For the last several years, we have endured season dates which do not offer us the best waterfowling opportunities. The local birds get hunted very hard in the first couple of weeks, and we are then forced to wait for "that big nor'easter" that everyone talks about in order to get new birds. Honestly, a simple move in the Opener dates back two weeks in October would help us out tremendously. This year is not an anomaly in regards to the weather. The Canadian Provinces are just now freezing up, and the birds are on the move. Unfortunately for Michigan waterfowlers, there are only 6 days left in the season (if you include the 2-day January split). 
Waterfowlers are a much different breed of hunter than others. We desire the cold, wet, windy conditions which keep many others in the house. We do not mind dealing with ice on lakes, rivers, and marshes. What we DO mind is having season dates which begin when it's 90 degrees outside, and then after the first weekend, basically hunt a minimal number of birds, and then are forced to sit and watch (or travel to another state) when the migration does actually occur after the Michigan season is closed. 
I can appreciate the efforts of so many in establishing the season dates from year to year. I hope that you take the time to listen to what is being told to you by waterfowlers, not just by someone who looks at 50 year old migration data. For sure, the State should look into separating the Lower Peninsula into two regions once again. What happens on Saginaw Bay is MUCH different than what happens on Lake Erie in early December. Let the Northern Lower start the first weekend in October, but start the Southern Lower the third weekend in October. 
If it were up to me, the Southern Lower would not start until the first weekend in November and run through December. But that's just me...and for sure probably not an idealistic situation for everyone. I think you have the opportunity in front of you to give waterfowlers what they want most: A chance to pursue game in a time frame that provides them the best opportunity to do so. 
Please consider what I've written to you today in regards to adjusting the waterfowl season dates in Michigan. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,



BFG


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## drev (Aug 3, 2004)

Of note:
Hunter surveys filled out by hunters that bought licenses, the opener in Oct. was based upon what hunters wanted.

_Goose hunting opportunity's during duck season_, hence the early openers with the 60 day framework.

If the season days were to be 45 or less it wont apply, but the with the 60 days that is what the majority hunters wanted that took time to fill out the surveys.

And I myself having been on CWAC remember that well 
as I am sure that others that also were on CWAC also remember.


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

Thank you for your service and efforts with the CWAC. 

Hopefully since you all listened then...someone will listen now.


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## maximus (Mar 1, 2004)

Email sent


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> right now we have 30-40 thousand birds using just the shi flats.


Road trip!:evil:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

wavie said:


> Road trip!:evil:


SK uses the term "using" very loosely. what he really means is "resting in" the Shi flats. The majority simply get up and out to the dry fields at high altitude.


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## sean (May 7, 2002)

dizzzyduck said:


> Seeing that the duck migration does not start for good flights until the middle of December I think we need to adjust our duck season to start later or longer. 90 percent of people do not hunt every day only on weekends, so it just goes to reason that we lengthen duck season and not go by 1950's models, the ducks have adjusted their migration. Early goose is the same, two weeks when almost everybody hunts weekends. Why do we pay people to round up geese and pay trucks to ship them when we could lengthen the season? I would rather keep the money for our natural resources and not waste it on greyhound fair for ganders. If the local goose population is a problem let those who hunt them, hunt longer. It's simple spend money or let the hunters do the work. No person on a lake would complain if our early goose lasted a month. If townships want to keep hunters off lakes then they should be the ones paying the vacation trip for these geese not the hunters. It seems as though everybody likes dipping their hand in the DNR's money but not giving into it so our managed areas have no water in them. Maybe I'm also the only one that thinks we should have wind driven pumps constantly pumping water into managed areas from Sept. on.........While I'm on a rant how about blasting potholes in some of these marshes? Instead of building more boat ramps we should open up these areas with a little bit of fireworks. Start with the Allegan marshes and that other fully useless one, the St. johns.I bet even DU would fund it with their money and people. I really don't expect this to go anywhere because chapters have said this all before.  The best thing hunters can do is contact Lansing to get new thinkers running DNR, ones to keep the hunters money to fund wildlife projects using current models not goose vacations.


I respect your opinion, and not sure where you hunt, but if your saying the flights arent in until the middle of December, I find that VERY hard to believe. I can only speak for Fish Pt area , but I would say the peak is somewhere between the last week in October to first week in November, this includes puddlers and divers. Even up in the UP on the Whitefish Pt Observatory, if you look at numbers of puddlers and divers, after the beginning of Nov, its pretty slim as far as the major migration goes. I would like the season to be pushed up a week and go a week farther into December, but its not about the diehards, its about the getting the "fair weather" duck hunter to hunt early and buy licenses. Unfortunately its not all about the diehards.....but I wish it was!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Okay I'm bumping this one back to the front burner now that the season is actually over. And for those who care, someone on another website posted the actual Federal Register that we have to go by. Here's the link for those who care...

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/fedreg/regs06/Late season final.pdf

As part of my job, I have to deal with the Federal Register, and federal employees, on a regular basis, so reading this bureaucratic language is second nature. But let me see if I understand it right, and someone correct me if I'm wrong...currently our zone structure is locked in until 2010, and it allows two basic options...three zones, with two-way splits in each zone, or four zones with no splits. There are some other options if we decide we want to change zone structure prior to 2010, and I won't reiterate those here because it's kinda messy, but we basically get penalized if we go that route...so we won't go there. But within those basic two restrictions the state can choose to get creative, correct? In other words, provided our zones conform to that listed above, and we don't exceed a 60 day season, we have some flexibility, correct? I know it will be a hard sell to get the DNR to listen (maybe harder than the feds?) but I have some ideas that are too complicated to say here, so I'm preparing a written proposal that I'll get to orion when I'm done, as well as the MDHA rep since I am a past officer in the organization.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

For those of you who asked, here is a portion of my proposal. We can't attach word documents to posts, so I had to post it here, and I tried to cut it down to just the meat but it's still long. Note that this is for 2010, since we're pretty limited as to what we can change until then. And before anyone bombs away, remember, we were asked for our opinions, and so these are just my thoughts and opinions...nothing more. As my 82 year old Dad is fond of saying, opinions are like A-holes...everyone has one and they all stink :evilsmile I'm really not asking you to react to it (but I'm sure some will :lol. Honestly, I've been fairly satisfied with the season structure here, so I really don't have a vested interest in any of this. Just trying to get creative and provide some food for thought. And further, this kind of radical change probably doesn't have a snowball's chance of happening, but maybe some of my ideas can help with future regulations. 

I've provided this to Orion, as well as the MDHA and some DNR staff for their thoughts. 

*Michigan Duck Hunting Season Proposal (beginning in 2010)

Basic concepts (assuming 60 day season)

Provide a new, flexible licensing approach within the federal framework, called Hunters Choice. 

Key points of this proposal:
1.	Revise the zones in Michigan to four zones (no splits), if still permitted to do so in our flyway under the Federal Register. 
2.	Return the west side of Saginaw Bay into Zone 2 where it was for years. 
3.	Revise the way Michigan licenses waterfowl hunters to allow a Hunters Choice system, where (assuming we are allowed a 60 day season) each of the four zones is divided into two, 30 day time periods, for a total of 8 optional time periods. Each hunter chooses two 30 day time periods from the 8 available options. 

Zone Descriptions

Zone 1  the entire UP

Zone 2  current zone 2 line from west to east, except at Bay County the line extends easterly on highway US-10 to I-75, northerly on I-75 and US-23 to Beaver Road (about 1 mile north of Kawkawlin), easterly to Saginaw Bay, north 50 degrees east to the International Boundary. 

Zone 3  the remainder of the lower peninsula below the Zone 2 line, except for that portion described for Zone 4 below. 

Zone 4  Those portions of St. Clair, Macomb, Wayne, and Monroe Counties lying east of I-94 & I-75.

Hunting seasons

Using the 2008 calendar for example, and assuming a 60 day season is approved by the federal government, the following is proposed:

Option A  Zone 1 - September 27, 2008 through October 26, 2008
Option B  Zone 1  October 27, 2008 through November 25, 2008

Option C  Zone 2  October 4, 2008 through November 2, 2008
Option D  Zone 2  November 3, 2008 through December 2, 2008

Option E  Zone 3  October 18, 2008 through November 16, 2008
Option F  Zone 3  November 17, 2008 through December 16, 2008

Option G  Zone 4  October 25, 2008 through November 23, 2008
Option H  Zone 4  November 24, 2008 through December 23, 2008

Discussion / Justification

By being allowed to choose only two 30 day periods, each hunter would have a maximum of 60 days possible to hunt. They would be required to choose regions in which they want to hunt, similar in concept to that used for wild turkey and antlerless deer. Since some of the proposed dates overlap each other, some choice combinations would result in less than 60 days possible to hunt (C & E for example would allow 44 days). However the added flexibility of these slotted time frames would appeal enough to some to make this irrelevant. And in practical terms, very few hunters actually hunt the full 60 days allowed. Conversely, if a hunter wants to have basically the same hunting period that he has currently, he would still have the option of choosing consecutive 30 day periods for a total of 60 days (for example A & B, or C & D). 

The one substantial change included in this proposal is the addition of a fourth zone, basically covering the Great Lakes waters of southeast Michigan. This is being proposed to address those hunters who regularly hunt the southeast Michigan Great Lakes waters and have consistently asked for the opportunity to hunt later in the season. Currently policy has been to permit a two day January hunt utilizing the split concept permitted by the Federal Register. However this has been controversial because many Zone 3 hunters feel they are being hurt because of this split. This proposal would allow hunting much later than currently allowed, but not require utilization of the split season concept. Big water hunters would have the flexibility of choosing option H to take advantage of the late hunt, along with an earlier time period such as E if desired, or they could simply hunt zone 4 for 60 consecutive days, extending much later than currently permitted. Again, flexibility as determined by the licensee. 

Returning the west side of Saginaw Bay to Zone 2 is proposed based upon anecdotal information from hunters which made it clear that a majority of Saginaw Bay hunters feel that recent opening dates have been too early. However there is still a group, mainly on the west side, who desire early opportunities. Therefore, by moving that portion of the bay back into zone 2, COMBINED with creating four overall zones, the west side of the bay can still have an earlier opening date than the east side, or most of the southern lower peninsula. 

Concerns raised

A concern of policy makers under the current three zone structure has been by allowing separate opening dates in each of the three zones, hunters could hunt all three opening days, potentially placing more pressure on the overall flock. The proposed Hunters Choice licensing approach would help alleviate this concern since hunters would be required to select their hunting zones when purchasing a license, allowing them to hunt at most two opening dates. 

There has also been a concern about a large amount of hunters crowding in on the new zone 4 waters late in the season. However historic anecdotal information has indicated that a large majority of waterfowl hunters only hunt a few days, and/or only early in the season. Also, the number of hunters who are interested in pursuing big water opportunities, or who have the equipment to do so, is extremely limited. Therefore, chances of a large percentage of hunters choosing zone 4 to hunt is minimal. 

Another concern was raised regarding the Harsens Island managed waterfowl unit, which is a popular hunting location. This proposal would make Harsens Island part of the new Zone 4, therefore having a later than usual starting date. However, opinions received from hunters who frequent that area have been overwhelmingly positive that the proposed starting date of October 25 is much more appropriate. In fact, some have suggested an even later starting date in order to push the ending date further out.

One reviewer of this proposal posed the question why is this proposal better for me as a duck hunter? Currently, I can buy one license, and hunt from the opener in the UP, to the last day in southeast Michigan, and Im not limited by region. This new structure would mean I couldnt do that anymore. While this certainly is a valid statement, I believe there are relatively few people who currently hunt all three regions, or three separate openers if available. Since under this proposal a hunter could choose virtually the same license options that they have now (60 consecutive days), whether or not this proposal results in better opportunities would be an individual viewpoint. However the advantage of this proposal for Michigans waterfowl hunters as a whole is that they would have more flexibility should they want to take advantage of it, including having a true late season option in which to hunt should they desire it. My belief based on anecdotal information is that those hunters who have been vocal about late season, big water hunting are mostly located in southern Michigan, and are very mobile and willing to travel some distance to hunt. By allowing the late hunt in southeast Michigan, you would be providing a reachable opportunity for a significant number of Michigan hunters to take advantage of such a hunt, while at the same time not penalizing the remainder of the hunters by pushing all of their hunts later into the season. 

Practical licensing examples

EXAMPLE 1
Hunter 1 lives in Kalkaska, and most of his hunting is done on his own property there. He hunts his area 5 or 6 times a year for ducks, however he has friends who hunt Shiawassee River State Game Area and he usually hunts there once or twice a year as well. He does not like hunting in warm weather, nor does he shoot wood ducks or teal, so he usually waits until late October to start duck hunting. He chooses options C and E, even though that combination of seasons allows him only 44 days to hunt waterfowl.

EXAMPLE 2
Hunter 2 has a cabin in the UP and makes regular early fall trips there to hunt wood ducks and teal, as well as grouse and woodcock. However he lives in southeast Michigan, and also enjoys hunting at Harsens Island, as well as the marshes of Lake St. Clair. He chooses options A and H when purchasing his license, allowing him 60 days total to hunt, the ability to hunt early in the season in nice weather, and then be able to participate in late-season hunting as well. 

EXAMPLE 3
Hunter 3 frequents Saginaw Bay, both in zone 2 and zone 3 waters. He likes hunting teal, and knows from experience that the bay freezes earlier than other great lakes waters such as Lake St. Clair. So he chooses options C & F for his license which allows him 60 days to hunt, allows him to hunt early teal and wood ducks on the west side of the bay, have a couple week break where he can bow hunt for deer during the rut, and then go back to late duck hunting on the east side of the bay. 

EXAMPLE 4
Hunter 4 lives in Jackson, but has relatives in St. Ignace and likes to hunt Munuscong Bay as soon as the divers show up. He does some duck hunting around home, but he is an avid gun deer hunter, and by November 10th he usually stows his duck hunting gear and all of his attention turns to gun deer hunting. He chooses options A & E for his license, which fit his personal needs, even though that combination of seasons allows him only 51 days to hunt waterfowl.*


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## Dahmer (Jan 22, 2007)

Just Ducky,
Thats a hell of a presention that you put together. Very well done. Great that you put examples for hunter choices. I think this has great potentional. Thanks for doing the leg work. Nice job.


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

There's some good stuff here, JD, thanks for posting it up. And there's much to ponder in it.... 

My concern is that guys who usually make a trip for just a few days every year to another zone (thinking the U.P. here), will no longer do it, because they won't want to allocate a full 30 days to it. Sure, these choices make sense if you are talking about having guys choose the zones they regularly hunt, but it would certainly cut down on the number of "weekend getaways" to other places that many guys like to take. I think it would be hard to get that part past the tourism board, who will argue that weekend hunters are important for many motels and restaurants, especially in the more remote areas of the state (i.e. the U.P.).

Still, the framework you've outlined does give many guys the option for hunting later into December, which is a concern that needs to be addressed. Along the lines of later hunting, I think that the guys on the West side will argue that they should be included in your Zone #4, so perhaps you could extend the boundary westward along the lowest tier of counties and then north again around K'zoo to somewhere around Muskegon and then west to Lake Michigan....

Thanks again for posting up your thoughts. It's ideas like this that get the conversation started, and we all know that there are changes that really need to be made. Hopefully, the guys you've sent this to will be able to use it to get the ball rolling, so that come 2010 we can see some movement.


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

I think it's a good proposal *but*....

It's really geared strictly towards the Lake St. Clair crowd. You mean to tell me there are no big water opportunities in Zone 2 (Traverse City, Alpena, etc) after December 2nd?

A good start overall but it only fixes the problem for South Eastern Michigan.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

lang49 said:


> I think it's a good proposal *but*....
> 
> It's really geared strictly towards the Lake St. Clair crowd. You mean to tell me there are no big water opportunities in Zone 2 (Traverse City, Alpena, etc) after December 2nd?
> 
> A good start overall but it only fixes the problem for South Eastern Michigan.


because that is the where majority of problem is. As much as i would love to improve big water opportunities in TC.....lets face it, there is only a handful of hunters that would take advantage of a change in season in TC....whereas there would be a HUGE group taking advantage in southeast. Ask yourself, what would lose with this proposal? what would you gain? then post what your complaint is. I don't hear an outcry from northern lower that their season is ending too early.

Bottom line is you can't make everyone happy.....you have to make a change that will benefit a large majority if you gonna make a change at all.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

lang49 said:


> I think it's a good proposal *but*....
> 
> It's really geared strictly towards the Lake St. Clair crowd. You mean to tell me there are no big water opportunities in Zone 2 (Traverse City, Alpena, etc) after December 2nd?
> 
> A good start overall but it only fixes the problem for South Eastern Michigan.


Not saying that at all. One of my other thoughts is to create a "great lakes and connecting waters" zone for us here. My proposed zone 4 could certainly be extended north to include more great lakes waters, but remember that the Federal regs require zones to be CONTIGUOUS...i.e. you couldn't take my proposal, and say draw a line from the Thunder Bay River in Alpena down to Tawas Bay, and want to call that chunk part of Zone 4 also. CONTIGUOUS, so you have to include all the area in between, which would probably P/O a WHOLE bunch of other people who could give a rats ass about big water.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Dahmer said:


> Just Ducky,
> Thats a hell of a presention that you put together. Very well done. Great that you put examples for hunter choices. I think this has great potentional. Thanks for doing the leg work. Nice job.


Don't get yourself all worked up to a froth there Dahmer...I seriously doubt this idea will get much in the way of legs under it. Just too drastic for some of the "old guard". But at least I'm trying something new, not the same old tired-out ideas.


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::woohoo1::woohoo1::woohoo1::woohoo1::woohoo1::woohoo1:


I just had "zone G/H" tattooed on my right arm...you hit it right on the frickin' head for me with those options...

Very nice work bro....very nice. 

Edit: Dude...nothing would ever happen if people didn't come up with new ideas. It might not fly the first time...but establishing a baseline from which to work is never a bad thing. Kudos to you...



BFG


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shlwego said:


> ...Along the lines of later hunting, I think that the guys on the West side will argue that they should be included in your Zone #4, so perhaps you could extend the boundary westward along the lowest tier of counties and then north again around K'zoo to somewhere around Muskegon and then west to Lake Michigan....


Not disagreeing with that thinking Shlwego. But as I responded to lang49, the federal regs require zones to be contiguous. So you'd have to somehow extend the line from SE Michigan to SW Michigan, which would include all of those areas in between. But you can get as creative as you want...just have to get all the powers that be to buy into it. I tried to use the K.I.S.S. standard (*K*eep *I*t *S*imple *S*tupid). I personally don't think Jackson Co. for instance has the same late season opportunities as the Detroit River, nor should they. But that's just me.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> because that is the where majority of problem is. As much as i would love to improve big water opportunities in TC.....lets face it, there is only a handful of hunters that would take advantage of a change in season in TC....whereas there would be a HUGE group taking advantage in southeast. Ask yourself, what would lose with this proposal? what would you gain? then post what your complaint is. I don't hear an outcry from northern lower that their season is ending too early.
> 
> Bottom line is you can't make everyone happy.....you have to make a change that will benefit a large majority if you gonna make a change at all.


Yup. My original thought was to change the zones to north-south lines instead of east-west like they are now. If you can imagine drawing a line a few miles inland of all of the great lakes and call all of that a "great lakes zone". But after reading the $%@#!^^* Federal Register, it just seemed waaaaay to difficult to get that past the feds, let alone the state people. And as Shi Kid said, the vast majority of layout or big water hunters hunt in SE Michigan water or Saginaw Bay, no matter if they live in Warren or Grand Rapids. Truely can't make everyone happy.

I got a lot of good advice from people who have been at the table for the CWAC, and the one common thing they said was to keep it as simple as possible.


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