# Basic Question



## strat69 (Aug 24, 2004)

At the risk of sounding at best ignorant, and at worst stupid, I do have a question for this forum. I am a member of my local QDMA and the national QDMA but after reading some of the "Reasons why choose QDMA" fodder on the QDMA website, I'm wondering "Why?" myself.
Specifically, I'm a non-landowner. I do not have any "habitat" to "manage" and don't have a need to buy a cultipactor so I can make feed plots. Now, I do find the information intriguing and do consider myself a concientious hunter who wants to make sure Michigan has a balanced healthy herd. But, really, what is the vision of QDMA for the non-landowner?
To my thinking....that would be most hunters in our great State....


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

strat69 said:


> Now, I do find the information intriguing and do consider myself a concientious hunter who wants to make sure Michigan has a balanced healthy herd.


strat, you really did answer the question yourself. But more importantly, every time you step into the deer woods, be it public, or private land, you will always have the knowledge to make an informed management decision, prior to pulling the trigger. 

I'm not saying that if you didn't belong to the QDMA, you wouldn't be able to make these decisions, (I know some of you guys we're ready to throw quotes back at me for that one), but at the very least, you're supporting those in Michigan that have the same passion about our deer herd as you do.

...and there's always the banquets, if nothing else.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

all about education. and the more numbers that qdm has, the more it can educate. you're a concientious hunter, and you're learning something all the time.

habitat management, in michigan at least, is probably the least important factor. balanced sex ratios, appropriate age structures in bucks, density below carrying capacity - those are all things that don't require landownership.

besides, the information that you get in quality whitetails is certainly worth the cost of the membership. much better than all of the "story and gear review" rags out there.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

strat69,

The most important reason I can think of for being a QDMA member is knowledge. Knowledge of biologically sound deer management. Not only can you then pass that knowledge on to other hunters, but you can use it yourself while hunting. Remember we hunters are the real and only *managers* of the deer. The state wildlife agency doesn't manage the deer, they just make recommendations to the real managers--the deer hunters. Every time a hunter pulls the trigger or releases an arrow, or decides not to shoot, he/she has made a "management decision" to either remove that deer from the herd or let that deer remain. Both options will have consequences, and knowing what those consequences are is critical to making good harvest decisions.

You don't need to manage the habitat to practice QDM. In fact, I wish the QDMA would back off on that aspect of deer management. Habitat management is a "tool" that can be used effectively in *any* form of deer management, not just QDM. QDM is simply a harvest guideline. Yes, habitat management can certainly make those harvest guidelines more effective, but the herd can be properly managed without any changes in the habitat.


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## strat69 (Aug 24, 2004)

I want to thank you all for your replies and.... you're all correct. Quality Whitetails is a great information center for management strategies which otherwise seem to elude a majority of other mags.
Thanks for your input and I'll continue visiting and reading on this site. I'm glad I found it.
:smile-mad


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

*Quality Whitetails is a great information center for management strategies which otherwise seem to elude a majority of other mags.*

That's because the articles in _Quality Whitetails_ are primarily written by profession deer managers and biologists, not "outdoor writers." Sometimes I question the knowledge-base of "outdoor writers."


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

"Remember we hunters are the real and only managers of the deer. The state wildlife agency doesn't manage the deer, they just make recommendations to the real managers--the deer hunters. "



While I understand the rational behind that statement ,I respectfully disagree. The individual hunter can only control his own actions and is limited by the regulations that the state imposes,therefore his has very limited impact on the overall quality of deer hunting in the future. For example ,the state determines how many anterless licenses will be allocated for a given area . If the state allocates too few ,it will be impossible to balance the herd with the habitat. If a state allows the hunters to harvest 3 buck, but the herd can only support the harvest of 2 buck /hunter, then if one hunter decides to harvest only one buck, the other hunters will harvest the bucks he passed and nothing will be gained. The state controls the size of the racks that hunters can harvest which prevents hunters from harvesting inferior buck. So the state really does manage the herd ,unless you own enough land to implement and enforce your own standards.


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## bde (Jun 22, 2004)

Talk to some land owners and farmers. Get permission and maybe they might let you put in a plot if you want to get into that part of it. Tell'em about QDM and what were about. You might get lucky.


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## strat69 (Aug 24, 2004)

Again, thanks for the thoughts. My son just planted his first "plot" on the 10 acres adjacent to where we live. Used a no-plow seed and just made a 20' x 20' planting. 
The best part for me is to watch my 15 year old son really think about hunting strategies and herd management. He abides by QDM principles also and shot a nice doe last year after passing on two smaller bucks during the Youth Hunt. He made that choice even though I had given him the "green light" to shoot anything he wanted for that first season with a rifle. 
I guess that also is one reason I believe in sound herd management....I want my son to be able to one day teach his children about this incredible tradition of hunting. 
Good luck to all in this upcoming season...


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Thanks for posing the question strat69, and thanks for your active interest in Michigan's deer herd and wildlife education. Congratulations to your son for his successful youth hunt and continued interest in wildlife.


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## bde (Jun 22, 2004)

ation


strat69 said:


> Again, thanks for the thoughts. My son just planted his first "plot" on the 10 acres adjacent to where we live. Used a no-plow seed and just made a 20' x 20' planting.
> The best part for me is to watch my 15 year old son really think about hunting strategies and herd management. He abides by QDM principles also and shot a nice doe last year after passing on two smaller bucks during the Youth Hunt. He made that choice even though I had given him the "green light" to shoot anything he wanted for that first season with a rifle.
> I guess that also is one reason I believe in sound herd management....I want my son to be able to one day teach his children about this incredible tradition of hunting.
> Good luck to all in this upcoming season...


 We lead by example, He is the future of QDM, QDM will take hold.


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## bunji_hunter (Jul 4, 2003)

The key to QDM is QUAILITY not QUANTITY. A lower number of animals means no excessive overbrowse. A closer buck to doe ratio means a better genetic makeup of the herd. Better genes less over browse means bigger animals and better makeup.

Just my opinion.


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

"A closer buck to doe ratio means a better genetic makeup of the herd."

A closer B/D ratio does not improve the genetic makeup of the herd. All you have to do to get a better B/D ratio is to kill more doe, and that doesn't change the genetic makeup one bit.


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## Swamper (Apr 12, 2004)

How does QDM improve genetics of a deer herd? I understand the logic put forth regarding less overbrowsing, more balanced ratio of bucks to does, larger bucks...but please help me understand genetic improvement?

Swamper


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Swamper,

By insuring Natural Selection is at work. If only young bucks are available for breeding, or if there aren't enough older bucks for competition between bucks for breeding rights to exist, then there is no "selection" for genetic qualities.

Young bucks are too young to have expressed their genetic qualities. Without having expressed their genetic qualities (whether good, bad or nuetral) there is no way for Nature to weed out poor genetic qualities or favor good genetic qualities.

Natural Selection only works when animals have had the opportunity to express their genetic potential and there is some sort of competition for breeding rights, allowing animals with desireable traits to be favored over animals with less desireable traits. This process can only occur if there enough mature animals to "select" against through competition.


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## Swamper (Apr 12, 2004)

So does "expression of genetics" mean that if we let 20 bucks grow to 4-5 years old that only the "good ones" will be breeding the does, ie some of the bucks will never breed? Thanks for explaining patiently.

Swamper


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

"Natural Selection only works when animals have had the opportunity to express their genetic potential and there is some sort of competition for breeding rights, allowing animals with desireable traits to be favored over animals with less desireable traits. This process can only occur if there enough mature animals to "select" against through competition."


However, natural selection doesn't work when AR requires that hunters harvest the best buck of each age class while protecting inferior buck that will become dominant breeders due to their age and body weight.even when 80% of the 1.5 buck are harvested, their are still enough buck that survive for the theory to apply.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)




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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

No, not all the breeding, just "more" breeding. All it takes is a few percentage points more breeding by the "genetically superior" animals for those genetic traits to prevail. Even in fairly balanced herds (more natural buck age structure), some young/unproven genetics-wise young bucks still breed. Some lesser-genetic-quality older bucks breed. But the "good" genetic bucks still do more breeding.

No one really knows what are "good" genetic traits, but certainly any genetic capabilities to resist disease would be one of them, as would any genetic adaptations towards good physical performance under the local conditions (the ability to be large and healthy given the local herd/habitat conditions). There may even be hereditary "personality" traits that are favored, such as aggressiveness.

Hereditary traits towards _any genetic adaptations towards good physical performance under the local conditions_ may be one of the most important ones. In fact, who is selected for or against may vary considerably with the conditions. In overpopulated herds, certainly Natural Selection selects for those animals that can perform well under very poor food resource conditions. In herds living in high food resource areas, Nature may be selecting for something completely different.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2004)

Professor Kinkel, oops I mean BSK, thanks for the real deal when it comes to the straight dope in the biological make up of our deer. 


I think perhaps there may be a few of the posters that know the answer to their bio guestions, but are hoping to set a trap. Thanks to you Brian they are answered in a professional and accurate manner.

Keep the fun in hunting!


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## Swamper (Apr 12, 2004)

Thanks BSK for your answers. Helped me to understand the perspective a little better. Much more helpful than the rhetoric that is recited so often. 

Ed Spin - since you joined in, what do you mean by "trap" and to whom are you referring?

Thanks again, BSK.
Swamper


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

"No, not all the breeding, just "more" breeding. All it takes is a few percentage points more breeding by the "genetically superior" animals for those genetic traits to prevail. Even in fairly balanced herds (more natural buck age structure), some young/unproven genetics-wise young bucks still breed. Some lesser-genetic-quality older bucks breed. But the "good" genetic bucks still do more breeding."

While that statement is true ,implementing antler restrictions has the exact opposite effect , since on average it protects more buck that are inferior and allows them to become dominant breeders simply due to their age and larger body size.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Swamper,

I'm not sure Ed was referring to you when he mentioned potential "traps," but that is VERY common on talk forums. On any talk forum, there are going to be those adamantly opposed to QDM that go to great lengths to set verbal/philosophical traps for QDM advocates. They really don't want to add anything to the discussion, just attack QDM from every possible direction with no alternative ideas.

Those are the type forum members I put on my ignore list. I don't have the time to play those games anymore. I post on these forums because I enjoy teaching and passing on information to hunters. The "trap-setters" aren't interested in learning, just making certain people and ideas look bad. Obviously, since I responded to your posts you're not on my ignore list and I don't consider you a trap-setter!  

In fact, there is only one person on my ignore list from this forum.


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## mecheadSR (Dec 18, 2003)

Ed Spin, very poor taste. :16suspect . What was a good thread to read and learn was trumped by your pointless comment about non-qdm folks.


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Let's get back on track.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2004)

Swamper, Please don't be parnoid. Your posts in the main are not only intelectuall, I sense a genuine interest in learning. I also sense a bit of cynicism in your posts but, so what, wouldn't it be a bore if we were all alike? 

My negative comment is pointed at those who have absolutely no interest in being objective and post only to create choas. Their intent is to solve nothing in the health of the animal and sport we all love. They add very little and have a closed mind, which is sad, since I'm sure we share a lot in common.


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## Swamper (Apr 12, 2004)

BSK - thanks for the answer.

Ed Spin- I would hope asking questions is not considered paranoia, otherwise our schools are havens of paranoia. I appreciate the analysis of the nature of my posts.



Swamper
Let's Protect the Environment


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

Here is the original question.

""Reasons why choose QDMA"

The simple and most honest answer is , " to develop bigger racks". Those that promote statewide QDM deny that, but I doubt QDM would have many followers if QDM produced smaller racks. They also say it is about quality versus quantity , but they use antler size to measure the quality of the bucks produced. To my knowledge there has not been one study that quantitatively showed that improving the B/D ratio or male age structure , improved the health of the herd or increased the average size of the racks in each age class. The average size of the buck harvested increase ,simply because smaller bucks are illegal due to antler restrictions or QDM participants restrict the harvest of smaller buck. To date, there have been no studies that show the genetics of a free ranging herd have been improved due to QDM.


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## safetreehunt (Oct 1, 2003)

I really like this question too. It's sorta like this. 

Back in the 70's it was considered "unmanly" or in poor taste or worse yet "evil" to shoot does at all. The idea was that if you shot a doe you were killing years of new deer.

Over time our understanding of the harvest of antlerless deer has matured and changed for the more scientific and reasonable occeptance of doing just that. This is not just QDM, it's been an education of hunters by many sources over the last 30+ years. And of course there are still some old rascals that can't be convinced...just like with the QDM processes.

In order to manage the deer herds with the changing habitats due to people and progress, our paradigms must change as well. QDM supplies the fuel for that.


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

Very well said Safe!


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## safetreehunt (Oct 1, 2003)

Thanks...I try...I was a little hard to convince about the QDM practices at first as well. Once we started implementing them on a "let's see what happens basis" on our own 240. I began to understand the advantages.

We used to slaughter all the bucks we could find. Back in 89-90 we dropped 38 bucks and about 6 does for the 2 years. And the bucks were mostly spikes. After that our production tanked into years when we only got 1-2 bucks and they were spikes too.

In the last 5 years, we leave a couple spikes/4 pointers for the kids, but we shoot 1.5 does for each buck taken and have limited our personal buck harvest to 6 points or better and focus on the 2.5 year olds if we can. Interestingly enough after only 2 years of doing this, we harvest 2-5 8 pointers every year now. We never had a deer head mounted from our property in 22 years. Now we have 8 in the last 4. The only thing we have to do now is begin culling more does from the area. That's what we focus our bow season on. No buck till you shoot a doe now.

It's really been fun learning and implementing all of this. And based on how this thread started...that's what this is all about!!!


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Great example Safetreehunter. That's what it should be all about--simply adjusting which deer you harvest to produce a desireable result. You aren't trying to produce "monster" bucks, just a little better bucks. In addition, you're taking enough does to help herd balance. Good job and congratulations on the results.


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## TroyBasso (Sep 2, 2004)

BSK said:


> Great example Safetreehunter. That's what it should be all about--simply adjusting which deer you harvest to produce a desireable result. You aren't trying to produce "monster" bucks, just a little better bucks. In addition, you're taking enough does to help herd balance. Good job and congratulations on the results.


Good Grief!!!!! Your everywhere man!!! I will say this after reading this entire thread. At one point in my hunting carrer I was not to sure about all this QDM stuff. In fact my own ignorance made me borderline anti-QDM. I have been fortunate enough to be exposed to BSK for several years now and between his posts and reading literally everything I could get my hands on about QDM I am different now. I just wish every deer hunter could/would take the time to educate themselves on what QDM really is. Of course the Outdoor channel commonly says QDM when the really meant TDM adn that does not help any of us.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

I'm sneaky Troy.


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## TnRidge (Aug 29, 2004)

TroyBasso said:


> Good Grief!!!!! Your everywhere man!!! I will say this after reading this entire thread. At one point in my hunting carrer I was not to sure about all this QDM stuff. In fact my own ignorance made me borderline anti-QDM. I have been fortunate enough to be exposed to BSK for several years now and between his posts and reading literally everything I could get my hands on about QDM I am different now. I just wish every deer hunter could/would take the time to educate themselves on what QDM really is. Of course the Outdoor channel commonly says QDM when the really meant TDM adn that does not help any of us.


 Yep ,BSK taught us alot about QDM from his posts on Tndeer . I know I learned alot from reading his posts . Too bad he can't shoot a bow worth a crap though . 
We might not allways agree on everything ,but I respect his opinion on QDM .
Radar


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

True. I really am the world's worst bow hunter. :help:


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## TnRidge (Aug 29, 2004)

You just think you are . It's all about having confidence in your ability.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Unfortunately, the only way to build confidence is to have some success. THAt is the thing I'm having trouble with!  

Honestly, I doubt I will even bow hunt this year. We have run into the problem of over-pressuring our hunting property compared to our neighbors. We have been driving deer too nocturnal with this pressure. To reduce pressure we are going to eliminate the least productive hunting time, which for us is bow season. With the new Unit L in TN (can kill 123 does per person with a gun and MZ), we can accomplish our doe harvest goals without bow season.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

BSK:

I have always been under the impression that taking does before they are bred and early in the season is the way to go. We have a habitat problem here in Michigan and in many areas there is actually winter starvation (northern locations). Taking does early (bow season) addresses that problem to some degree in that the forage not eaten by the harvested does is left for the survivors of the hunting season. 

We have a silly late antlerless season in mid December in Michigan where much forage could of been available for these survivors had they been taken in mid October or September. Twenty does will eat 10,000 lbs of forage in three months. 


The following is hypotetical but informative. If you had 120 deer in an area that had winter forage for about 60 deer and did not take a single doe but twenty bucks, there could be a winter kill of 50% of the remaining deer (50 deer). If you took 20 does in December you may lose 25% of the remaing deer (20 deer). If you took those twenty does in September you should not lose any deer. 

In addition to the winter survival statistics, there is the advantage of having a much closer sex ratio during the rut, when does are taken early, which results in several major improvements in the health of the deer.

BSK, what is your view on this? Please, give us your ideas.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Ed,

We are big proponents of taking does as early as possible, and one of the reasons is exactly what you mentioned--food resources. Why "waste" the food resources those deer will eat into the later sections of the hunting season when they can be "saved"--by harvesting does early--for deer that are going to survive hunting season.

A second reason for harvesting does early is fawn--especially button buck--identification. The difference in size and body shape between a male fawn and an adult doe are greatest at the beginning of deer season. By December, a button buck can be nearly as large as an adult doe, and much harder to identify as a fawn.

Third, deer activity--especially daylight deer activity--dramatically declines post-rut, reducing harvest opportunities. Part of this is due to hunting pressure, but reductions in deer activity are part of the normal "wintering" process. This is normal whether deer are being hunted or not.

Lastly is primarily due to hunter attitudes. Once the rut is over, and many hunters have killed "their buck," their "drive" to hunt is much less. The weather is colder, football is on TV, Christmas is closing in, and there are simply so many other things to occupy the time. Often, if does haven't been killed by that time, they aren't going to be. We push hunters to kill does early simply so that the job gets done.

However, everything has its price. The increased hunting activity required to harvest a lot of does _may_ reduce buck activity later around the rut simply because of all the hunting pressure. In that regard, shooting does early is a double-edged sword. But when it comes down to somewhat reduced daylight buck activity during the rut, versus not taking enough does--creating serious negative biological ramifications long into the future, I'll take the reduced buck activity. Hunters/managers often don't realize how much "one bad year" for the deer can have long losting consequences.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Bryan - I sure wish everyone would read and head this thinking - ya know, sometimes it just takes some good old common sense, just stop and think about it, it's not rocket science - just makes sense.

ferg....


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