# Sticky  Lyme Disease



## unregistered55

Hello everyone!! 

I am relatively new to this site and the sport of hunting but have been battling Lyme Disease the past 3 years of my life. Due to the tremendous toll this illness has taken on my life and due to the amount of sportsmen and women I am coming across who do not know much about Lyme Disease or whom have many questions, I have decided to post some basic info. I hope that this information will reach and help at least one person who has or knows of someone who may have been bitten by an infected tick. If I can reach only one person and help them find more info about Lyme, my goal has been met! 

Disclaimer: I am a nurse, but not a doctor!! I am in no way, shape, or form attempting to offer medical advice or diagnose anyone with Lyme Disease or any other disease!! 

Feel free to post a reply or contact me or any other the other resources at the end of this thread if you have any additional questions or have any comments.

*What is Lyme Disease? *
Lyme Disease (abbreviated LD in this thread) is a spirochetal bacterial infection that is thought to be transmitted predominately the bite of the Ixodes Scapularis tick, commonly referred to as the deer tick, as shown here-









Size of Ticks-









Other species of ticks, such as the dog tick, wood tick, Lone-star tick, rabbit tick, and biting insects such as deer flies, horse flies, and mosquitoes have been shown to carry the Lyme Disease bacteria. It is important to remember that not all ticks carry the Lyme bacteria. 

*Is Lyme Disease a new disease?*
The history of LD is fascinating. It was first recognized in 1976 by doctors at Yale University in Connecticut. There was a cluster of children living in three towns on the coast of Connecticut diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis. In 1975, two mothers in Lyme, Connecticut became very suspicious that something else was brewing and brought it to the attention of the CT State Dept. of Health. The researchers found that most of the patients with arthritis lived in heavily wooded areas with the first symptoms beginning in summer. In addition, the disease was not contagious from person to person.

Curiously, several patients remembered having had a bulls-eye rash before the arthritis began. It turned out that the same round red skin rash, named Erythema Migrans (EM), which is shown here- 










It also became very clear that Lyme Arthritis was actually a more complex illness that not only involved the skin, but also impacted the nerves and heart muscle of both children and adults.

In 1982, Dr. William Burgdorfer was able to find within the tick the spirochete bacteria that causes LD. Subsequently, the bacteria was named Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb). This discovery was a major step in being able to tie the worldwide picture of LD together as well as becoming the springboard for further research regarding the biology, transmission, treatment, and prevention of this disease. 

*Who gets Lyme Disease?*
Anybody can get LD. People who frequent the woods and forest edges such as campers, hikers, outdoor workers, and hunters are generally more likely to come in contact with ticks. However, LD has also become a suburban illness because new home development has encroached on the woodland. Ticks feed on field mice, deer, and other rodents and birds. Domestic animals such as dogs, cats, horses, and cattle can also become host to the ticks. Although these animals are possible carriers on LD, it is not believed that they can transmit the disease directly to humans. What can occur is that pets can bring ticks into our yards and homes, leaving us susceptible to being bitten. Birds, mice, and rodents passing through our yards can also deposit these unwelcome guests near our homes.

*What are the symptoms?*
Lyme disease is thought to occur in three stages, however, they can overlap and not all patients go through all three stages. About 30% of the patients may get the bulls-eye rash. It usually starts at the bite site, but may also appear anywhere on the body. The rash may grow in a circular pattern like a target. Not all Lyme rashes are bulls-eye rashes and many people do not recall having a red rash. 

In some cases, fatigue, fever, chills, headache, stiff neck, muscle/joint aches, or other flu-like symptoms are the first indication of illness. In the weeks, or months following a tick bite, the pain (or weakness) in the joints, muscles, tendons, or bones may become migratory and move to other areas of the body. Temporary heart involvement may cause palpitations or fainting. Severe itching, temperature fluctuations, and vision problems may occur. A multitude of symptoms may come and go, causing doctors to treat only the symptoms and not recognize the overall systemic nature of LD. 

*SYMPTOM LIST:*
The following symptoms of LD vary on severity or the infection and the amount of time before treatment. You may have some, many, or even different symptoms than listed. 

*Eyes or Vision:*
Inflammation of the membranes lining eyelids
Inflammation of the eye
Loss of normal papillary reflexes in response to light
Inflammation of optic nerve
Abnormal sensitivity to light
Double vision
Inflammation of the iris

*Heart:*
Slowed heart rhythm caused by improper conduction of electrical signals in and to the heart
Inflammation of the heart muscle and/or the membrane surrounding the heart
Irregular heartbeats
Enlarged heart
Fainting, dizziness
Shortness of breath 
Chest pain (may feel like a heart attack)
Rapid heartbeat or skipped beats
A triple cadence in heart sounds caused by an abnormal third or fourth beat

*Arthritic:*
Painful joints
Arthritis, inflamed joints
Inflammation of muscles and/or tendons
Disease located in the muscles
A collection of fluid that has escaped the knee joint or a bursa and formed a new sac in an adjacent area

*Neurologic:*
Paralysis of facial nerve
Meningitis
Disease of spinal nerve root
Inflammation of the brain, multiple nerves, spinal cord, and/or arteries in the brain
Disease of peripheral nerves, and/or nerve networks
Spasmodic movements of limbs and/or facial muscles
Loss of muscle coordination caused by disease in the cerebellum of the brain
Partial paralysis of muscles, and/or Bell&#8217;s Palsy 
Seizures
Headaches ranging from mild to severe
Stiff neck
Impairment of normal sensations
Abnormal sensations: itching, prickling, tingling, 
Sleeping disturbances
Hearing loss or hypersensitivity to sounds
Ringing in ears
Partial paralysis of one side
Paralysis of lower extremities

*Neuropsychiatric:*
Mood swings
Irritability
Poor concentration
Instability
Forgetfulness/ memory loss
General deterioration
Psychosis
Loss of appetite

*Other Symptoms:*
Fever
Fatigue
Sore throat
Disease of lymph nodes/ enlarged lymph nodes
Enlarged spleen
Enlarged liver
Testicular swelling
Nausea
Vomiting
Cough
Hoarseness
Diarrhea
Abdominal pain
Rashes
Menstrual irregularity
Speech problems

In some untreated patients, the spirochete will remain inactive and never create any severe problems. However, in other patients, the untreated infection may result in the development of other problems associated with Lyme. Because so many individuals do not get the rash, LD may go undiagnosed. 

LD infection that has gone undetected, or inadequately treated can lead to a chronic state called &#8220;late-stage Lyme Disease&#8221;. This stage includes debilitation arthritis, bouts of numbness in the limbs, Bell&#8217;s palsy, and neurological disorders. Symptoms may go into temporary remission and then recur or be replaced with new symptoms. 

Lyme Disease is often called &#8220;The Great Imitator&#8221; because it can mimic other diseases, such as Lupus, Lou Gehrig&#8217;s Disease/ Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS), Multiple Sclerosis, or Parkinson&#8217;s Disease. LD can present with such an array of symptoms that are often the same as these listed illnesses so those who have been diagnosed with these named illnesses should ask their doctor to confirm that LD is not the cause of their symptoms. 

*How is Lyme Disease diagnosed?*
Lyme Disease is a clinical diagnosis, meaning it is based on your clinical symptoms. Perhaps the most serious problem facing Lyme victims is diagnosing the disease. LD mimics so many other illnesses and the pattern of symptoms varies from patient to patient. At present, there are four tests available: the ELISA test (also called the Lyme titer), the Western Blot, Lyme Disease Urine Antigen, and the PCR, but are often unreliable. According to a recent study by the College of American Pathologists, more than 55% of ELISA tests were inaccurate. Of these three, the Western Blot is the most reliable. These tests are to be used in conjunction with symptoms and patient history. Some people test negative but still may have Lyme Disease. Education for you and your physician is a must.

*How can Lyme Disease be treated? *
People with a known tick bit or known EM rash should be given oral antibiotics (abx) early in the disease. They should not wait for symptoms, as they may not show up for some time. Your treatment of oral or IV abx should be discussed with a Lyme literate physician (please contact the Michigan Lyme Disease Association for more info regarding physicians). 

There are over 300 strains of Bb bacteria and unfortunately there is no test to tell us which abx works well for each strain. The Borreliosis bacteria is different from many others because it lives a very long time and has an extremely long generation time. It also may go into periods of latency. There isn&#8217;t a test to tell us that your body has rid completely of the Lyme bacteria either. One of the best ways to help your physician is to keep a daily log so he/she may see which abx may or may not be working. It is very important to be treated as soon as possible to prevent the disease from reproducing and becoming a multi-systemic illness. 

*Can there be more than one disease from a tick bite?*
Yes, ticks carry other diseases such as Babesia, Erhlichia, Bartonella, Tick Fever, and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever (RMSF). You may or may not get any of these from a tick bite, but on the other hand, you could be infected with more than one bacteria from a tick bite. It is imperative that your doctor look at all of your symptoms and test you for other tick-borne illnesses. Research is ongoing regarding all these diseases and it is best to be educated with this information.

*Babesiosis:*
A malaria-like infection caused by a parasite that targets red blood cells. Symptoms include headache, fever, chills, muscle pain, sweating, and anemia. 

*Ehrlichiosis: *
A bacterial infection caused by several types of rickettsiae which invade and kill white blood cells. Symptoms include fever, headache, chills, extreme muscle pain, anemia, decrease in white blood cells, lung infection, elevated liver enzymes, and a rash could occur.

*Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever:*
An infection caused by Rickettsia rickettsii and has been reported throughout North America. Symptoms include headache, chills, flu-like aches and pains, high fever, and a reddish to black rash that looks like measles, starts on the extremities and can spread to the entire body.

Other tick-borne illnesses in the USA include Colorado Tick Fever, Relapsing Fever, Tick Paralysis, and Tularemia.

*How do you protect yourself from tick-borne diseases?*
There are simple steps to prevention. FIRST be aware of the tick&#8217;s habitat: bushes, tall grasses, woods, yards, and wood piles. SECOND, wear appropriate clothing. When temperatures allow, wear long pants and tuck your shirt inside. Pull your socks up over your pant legs and wear good shoes. Light colored clothing makes it easier to spot a tick. The use of an insect repellant containing DEET is helpful. Read the directions on the can very carefully/ Sprays containing Permethrin may be used on clothes only, and must be sprayed and dried before you wear them. THIRD, monitor yourself, children, and pets immediately after coming inside. Inspect clothes, undress and check for ticks. Check all areas by rubbing your hands over the skin. Ticks are very small and you may feel them before you feel them. Remove any attached ticks and save it in a small bottle with the date and the bite&#8217;s location. Be alert for early signs and symptoms and watch for signs of a rash for a month or so. Call your physician and record your tick bite. Use tick-control products in your yard, on yourself, and on your pets. 

*How should you remove a tick?*
Proper tick removal is ESSENTIAL. Use fine-point tweezers to grasp the tick as close to your skin as possible. DO NOT squeeze the tick&#8217;s body. Grasp it where it&#8217;s mouthparts enter the skin and tug gently but firmly and repeat as necessary until it releases it&#8217;s hold. Take your time and be patient. Pull it straight out. DO NOT squeeze the ticks body. Wipe the bite area thoroughly with an antiseptic. Save the tick in a covered bottle. Record the date and location where you were bitten. This facilitates testing at a later date. Your doctor may find this information and the tick specimen helpful in diagnosis if a rash or other symptoms of Lyme Disease subsequently appear. 










You can also send the tick to the to have it tested for LD. You can find more info on this here: http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125-1566_2403_2421-44271--,00.html


*Links for more information:*

*MICHIGAN LYME DISEASE ASSOCIATION*
http://www.hvcn.org/info/mlda/
1-888-784-LYME(5963)


Michigan Lyme Disease Association Support Groups
*Berrien County*
Phone Support
Elizabeth Marvin
269-468-4098 

*Flint/Flushing/Clio*
Meets 2nd Thursday of the month at 7:00pm
Clio Senior Center
2136 W. Vienna St. 

*Clio, MI *
Mary Fairweather
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 810-686-9383 

*Livingston County*
Phone Support
Bev Grunheid
Email: [email protected]

*Lenawee County*
Meets 2nd Monday of Month at 7:00pm
At First Church of Nazarene
50 Industrial Drive. Adrian MI
Chris Emery
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 517-265-5712

*Western Wayne County*
Phone Support
Connie Siese
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 734-326-3502

*North Oakland County*
Phone Support Iris Ishman
Phone: 248-625-8747

*Ann Arbor*
Phone Support
Neal & Meredith Foster
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 734-663-0756

*Oakland/Macomb/St. Clair County*
Meets 1st Monday of Month at 7:00pm
Church of Christ in Roseville
17415 11 Mile Road (I696 & Gratiot)
Amy Holloway 
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 888-784-5963 

*Blue Water Area*
Meets 2rd Thursday of Month at 7pm
Acheson Community Resoure Center
514 McMorran Boulevard (Downtown Port Huron).
Hillary M.
Email: [email protected] 
Phone: 810-987-6415 

*Grand Rapids*
Phone Support
Gretchen Meyer
Email: Gretehen
Phone: 616-583-0549



AGAIN, my goal is to only help educate others about Lyme Disease. If you have more questions, please post them or contact me and I will try to find you the answers or someone who can.


----------



## steve1983

good post amy....i hope people read and learn


----------



## salmo'dog

Job well done Amy! I didn't know quite that much about the disease and hopefully your message does reach others in the battle against LD. On the other hand, think of how many people in the forums that you will educate on LD. Again, awsome job.


----------



## twohats

Thanks Amy. I think I will get tested again, sence its hard to diagn. Many moons ago I shot a buck in the Up. When we were skinning it we found that it was covered in ticks. Well, I ended up with a bullseye rash on my neck. Realy didnt think much of it. Now years latter I suffer from arthrites, and joint pain in my hands and shoulders as well as fatigue and stiff neck. After reading this information I am going to ask to be re tested with the western blot test which your write up states as being the most acurate. Maybe I do have lyme or I am just getting old. 

Thanks again for the info.


----------



## MERGANZER

Nasty sickness and tough to get rid of. I dated a girl who had LD and it really took a toll on her. Great post! Maybe this should be a sticky since the warm weather is coming on soon. Good luck with everything Amy and thanks for the info.

Ganzer


----------



## unregistered55

Thanks guys! Like I said, educating others about Lyme is something I am VERY passionate about! I can not thank those who were there to help me learn more and offer support while I was at my lowest points and can only "pay it forward" now that I am feeling somewhat better. Seeing the responses you have left and the PM's I have already received after only a few short hours definately makes my hard work more than worth while!! 

*Twohats-* I sent you a PM. If you have had a bulls-eye rash, research shows that you will most likely have Lyme. The bulls-eye rash is the most definite sign there is. IE. You have the rash, you have LD. Many people (as in my case) do not recall getting the rash and spend years trying to diagnose what is going on. *Please* contact Linda Lobes at the Michigan Lyme Disease Association at 1-888-784-LYME(5963). She will mail you out a great packet of info and will also get you a list of LLMD's (Lyme Literate docs) who can and will adequately treat you for Lyme. Also, the MLDA has a online support group on yahoo groups that you can check out, I will send you the link! Take care and best wishes!! Keep me posted along the way!

*Merganzer-* "nasty sickness and tough to get rid of" are a great way to describe LD!! It definitely does take a toll on your life.... I am 26 years old, went from playing ice hockey 2-3 times a week to where I could not even carry my hockey bag of equipment up the stairs and some days could not even get out of bed and I didn't have it nearly as bad as some do. All in all, I have been on a medical leave (off and on) more more than 14 months from my job at a local hospital because being on my feet for 12+ hours a day took so much out of me. I had a PICC line in my arm for 5+ months and gave myself IV antibiotics 2 times a day... but I can only thank God for pulling me through this and this all has given me a lot different perspective on a lot of things in my life!! One of these days I will post "my story".... now back to bed I go, start working midnights tonight!!!


----------



## QDMAMAN

Good info Amy! 
What's your take on the guy that shot the preacher this weekend and is claiming he's nuts due to LD?

Big T


----------



## BWHUNTR

*Way to get the awareness out Amy. *

*You may have answered many of peoples ailments. Maybe its not because we're growing older, our bodies are sore, tired, all the aches and pains, etc, maybe its LD! *


----------



## onenationhere

WOW! nice post,thanks for that.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Lyme disease is one of the more compelling biological reasons that it's time to become serious about reducing deer populations in the SLP, especially in urban and suburban settings. There is a direct correlation between the size of deer populations and the incidence of Lyme disease, if the DNR and hunters do not step up to the plate and remedy the over populated herds in some areas, there is an increasing potential for the non-hunting public to advocate for solutions that are not based on recreational hunting.


----------



## unregistered55

*Big T-
*I am not really sure what to think about the man who had Lyme and killed the preacher. I am not going to say _"no, he's just trying to pull a "get out ot jail card"_ because I can tell you from my own experiences that I DID have mental changes and I do not feel as though my case of Lyme was nearly as bad as many are. In my case, I was noticing that I could not concentrate during class, I had REALLY bad short-term memory loss, and my equilibrium was all off, I would trip and stumble over things, bump into tables... and NO I WAS NOT DRUNK!!  I went to see a neurologist and everything, had a MRI & MRA done on my brain, and although they noticed a few small lesions, nothing really came of it. 

Is it possible it was due to the Lyme, maybe... it's kind of like asking if someone who kills someone is insane... 


*Munsterlndr*-
Yea, there definately needs to be something done in regards to Lyme, but unfortnately our state likes to "down play" the Lyme problem we have here and keep it "hush, hush" so I am not sure that will come anytime soon unfortnately.


----------



## portagelaker

Great post.

This disease scares the heck out of me. There is a family that lives in a heavily wooded lot adjacent to my families. They have a son, who I'm guessing is around 20 now. In his early high school years, he was an excellent athlete, and good at school. He was bitten by a tick, and got the disease. It is unbelievable how much it changed him. It made him a different person, unable to function as an adult on his own. He is now "special needs", and will have to be cared for for the rest of his life. It breaks my heart to see him outside, and wittness the worst case scenario that this disease has to offer. 

Best of luck.


----------



## Fishalot

Good info here Amy. Thanks for taking the time to post it.


----------



## firenut8190

My now 14 y/o son was bitten last spring 08 turkey. His grandmother found the tick enbedded on his head under all of his hair. She pulled it out but did not save it. We made a Dr. appt. and 2 weeks later he was dianos. with LD. They put him on oral antibiodicts. The Dr. said we did the right thing and not wait to get him tested. She stated with the antib. It will make it go into a dormit stage and should have little to no effects on him. Time will tell.


----------



## unregistered55

*Portage*- Thanks a bunch for sharing the info about your neighbor!! This is the exact reason I posted, to help educate more people, especially sportsmen!!

*Firenut*- Thanks for sharing your son's story If you wouldn't mind sharing, what county was your son in when he got bit? I hope he does not have too rough of a battle. Good luck and thanks again for sharing!!


----------



## PaleRider

Hey Amy so is there a cure for LD or are they just treating symptoms at this point? I remember Rob Crest from the news had the disease, dont see him anymore I wonder how he is doing these days.

Anyways thanks for the post I will be careful out there.


----------



## unregistered55

Good question Pale! 

Due to the fact that there is not a test to determine if you are "cured" or not, it is very difficult to deem one as such. My Lyme doc wants me to be "symptom free" for 6+ months before he will consider taking me off of the abx. From what I have learned though, the Lyme can go into a remission-like state and can flare up again later in life if you have a lot of stress and such.

In my case, my doc has said that he wanted to have a CD-57 lab test ran this month. The CD-57 checks your level of "natural killer cells", which are thought to be decreased when one has Lyme Disease. Generally guidelines are that a score of < 20 indicates advanced or highly active Lyme disease. Scores of 20-60 are indicative of active Lyme disease where scores > 60 start to suggest that the Lyme infection is less active. A normal test result would be > 200. Many doctors suggest treatment is necessary until the CD-57 test score is 150 or above. The lower the result, the more likely a relapse if treatment is terminated.

So no, there isn't a definitive way to say "You are completely rid of the LD" and there is the chance that it could come back later in life. Thanks again for asking!!


----------



## firenut8190

AmyInMI said:


> *Portage*- Thanks a bunch for sharing the info about your neighbor!! This is the exact reason I posted, to help educate more people, especially sportsmen!!
> 
> *Firenut*- Thanks for sharing your son's story If you wouldn't mind sharing, what county was your son in when he got bit? I hope he does not have too rough of a battle. Good luck and thanks again for sharing!!


Lenawee County. I think it was form sitting under an old apple tree. It was crawling with them did not know they were on it until I feel something crawling on my neck, the I turn and looked:yikes:. thousands. I though I checked him good. We will be soaked in deed from now on.


----------



## bluefin75

My dad, who also lives in eaton county, was on a fishing trip with me about 8 years ago in the western u.p.(sylvania forest). We were camping and when he returned from the trip he ended up in the hospital days later in bad shape. They didn't figure it out right away but ended up being lymes. He still has problems that may be related to this. Nothing to mess around with.


----------



## unregistered55

Thanks for making this a sticky mods!!


----------



## kristie

This is an excellent thread!!!!!


----------



## autumnlovr

You know, sometimes I get frustrated with all the rough humor, back-biting and sarcasm on this forum, but it's threads like this that keep me coming back.
Excellent post Amy, thank you!


----------



## Joe Archer

Great post Amy. Get well soon! 

Awhile back I was asking my family doc about being vaccinated for Lyme Disease. He said that the vaccine was not very effective so they didn't offer it. He actually called Michigan Department of Health and was told that if a person was bit by a tick to have them IMMEDIATELY start a high dose (for me 100mg) of Doxycylin twice a day for two weeks. He was told that this will prevent Lyme Disease if bitten by an infected tick. 
Since then, I have always carried a prescription for Doxyclin in my wallet to use in the event that my children or I ever get bitten by a tick. 
Have you ever heard anything about the accuracy of this information?

<----<<<


----------



## unregistered55

*Kristie and Autumn- *Thanks so much, I appreciate hearing responses like that!!
*
Joe-* 

Yes, you area correct about the vaccine. NOT EFFECTIVE!!

Unfortnately, many docs think that a 2 week dose of abx therapy (typically Doxycycline) will do the trick. This is NOT an adequate dose. Because of this, there is a lot of politics surounding Lyme treatment. Many of the great Lyme docs out on the Eat Coast have been told they will have their license taken away for prescribing long term abx.... I guess these prosecutors have not read any current research... who knows!!

When you say you carry a script in your wallet, you mean the actual paper right? And be careful, I am not positive but I think a script is only good for one year. 

So have or are you being treated for Lyme Joe??


----------



## lookin for the gills

Very good thread Amy. Lots of great info. Thank you


----------



## SPITFIRE

Excellent thread and im sure to be a sticky for years to come.Looking at those nasty things makes me want to wear a full body condom when going into the woods,do they make them in camo?
All joking aside Amy thanks for posting and would like to hear your story sometime from the day you noticed your bite.Hopefully you make a full recovery and are able to put this all behind you.


----------



## Joe Archer

No Amy, I am not being treated for Lyme Disease. It has always been a concern of mine though because I spend so much time outdoors myself, and with my children. I cary a written prescription in my wallet. 
To clarify, my family doctor phoned the Department of Health while I was in his office, and was told that a high dose of Doxycycline taken right after being bit by an infected tick *will prevent the development of Lyme Disease.. * Again, I was told that this came directly from the Department of Health. 
<----<<<


----------



## unregistered55

*Spit-*Thanks a bunch Spit... Like I said my goal is to help educate and from the looks of the responses, I am doing just that! I do need to post my story.. one of these days or weeks, judging by my schedule!! 

As far as the "full body condom" :lol::lol: they do sell a product called "Rynoskin" that DOES COME IN CAMO  lol Here is the link: http://www.rynoskin.com/ It is similar to Under Armor.

*Joe- *Ahh, I see. I guess I miss read that. Sorry!


----------



## sandbur6

Amy-How much HGA (anasplasmosis) has been showing up in your state?

We are finding it in dogs and people. Some docs at the VA were slow to diagnose it in one of my relatives. Even double infections in some cases. Use doxycycine for both.

There is some confusion as "experts" keep changing the name between ehrlichia and anaplasmosis.


----------



## unregistered55

*sandbur6*-
There has definitely been an increase in the cases of anasplasmosis/ ehrlichia and other co-infections. I am trying to find more "specifics" for ya, once I find more info for you, I will post it for you.


----------



## reflexshooter

I agree Amy, thanks a ton for the info. I now know how ignorant I am about the disease.


----------



## Downsea

Great post. Brings to the front something that we all need to be aware of in the coming weeks.


----------



## unregistered55

Thanks for the support guys!! I hope the info can help some of the members here!!


----------



## solohunter

I have noticed a large increase in ticks in N/E mich also, Mio area, I never got a tick up there in 30 years, then I got three last year picking schroons, No bites, just crawling on me. nice to have the info on hand, thanks.


----------



## unregistered55

You're welcome Solo!! Glad to be able to provide some info and help other members out!!


----------



## TreeFrogg

This should be REQUIRED reading for "any" sportsman or sportswoman, entering the woods. Something you never really think about until it's too late. You have certainly educated me!


----------



## unregistered55

That is my goal, to educate!!


----------



## troll411

I own property in NW Delta county and you would not believe the thriving tick population resident there. I've been mowing the open field areas of this property for four years and still have am amazing amount of ticks around the perimeter of the house. My family ends up with embedded ticks every year no matter what steps we take to keep them off your body and from feeding. I may start collecting them for testing.

Pesticide is very expensive and equipment to spray via a tractor, which I do not (the spray equipment) have is out of my price range. 

My next tactic is to put out mice feeding stations with pesticide laced sponges to try cutting down the population around the home and barn.


----------



## Quadd4

Anyone have any advice for in the field?

Do these little buggers like certain areas more than others? certain trees etc?
Should you look at a tree that your sitting up against during hunting season? Can you even see them on trees or where ever?
Are they of more concern during the spring (turkey season) as oppose to fall hunting season? 

Also, If they do get on you, do they tend to hide out in your hair? Can you spot them on your head?


----------



## solohunter

You will never see them before they get on you, I have found most of mine like to crawl up,,, and felt them going up my neck, they seem to get on your pant legs and work their way up to your head, or armpit and then Burrow in,,, JMHO, never had one lower than armpit, last ones were on my neck hour or two after leaving woods, I will start spraying my socks and boots this year before I put them on, pant cuffs and wasit band also before putting them on to head out, good deet should repell them i think,,
spraying clothes before putting them on and heading out will work best i think.

You should feel them crawling in your hair, they are hard to find after they dig in as they spread out and latch legs in after head gets a bite. very flat critters.


----------



## hunter143

*Very good post on this subject Amy.Learned alot of things i didnt know about this disease and will from now on take better percausions when going into the woods...... Thank you and hope all is well with you....*


----------



## unregistered55

Thanks guys! 

As far as precautions- tuck in your pant legs when possible, watch out for branches/weeds that hang out in your path, make sure you check yourself very well once you return from the woods, if at all possible, remove your hunting clothing outside to lessen the chance of you bringing a tick into your home, use a tick-repellent spray. You have already done the #1 key to prevention... you have become EDUCATED!!


----------



## CHASINEYES

Very informative thread amy, thanks.


troll411 said:


> I own property in NW Delta county and you would not believe the thriving tick population resident there. I've been mowing the open field areas of this property for four years and still have am amazing amount of ticks around the perimeter of the house. My family ends up with embedded ticks every year no matter what steps we take to keep them off your body and from feeding. I may start collecting them for testing


Troll411-The only time I have been bitten by a tick was in delta county. I used to vacation in rapid river a couple times each year, fishing little bay de noc. Friends and I decided to visit the lighthouse on the stonington peninsula. The next morning when I woke I felt something crawling on my neck, sure enough it was a tick and it had bit me. Never got the bullseye, but it comes to mind every time I hear of LD. The dnr used to put out an LD concentration map, Delta county was one of the most likely places to contract LD in MI.


----------



## twohats

Results from 2nd test came back negative(Good news). So I guess I am just getting old.


----------



## unregistered55

You're welcome ChasinEyes!!




twohats said:


> Results from 2nd test came back negative(Good news). So I guess I am just getting old.


That is great news Twohats!! Just curious, what type of lab test did you have ran? Titer? Western Blot?


----------



## twohats

Blot


----------



## unregistered55

twohats said:


> Blot



Ok, good!!


----------



## solohunter

Spent a couple hours in stoney creek Metro park friday walking the trails, ended up wit the first tick of the season crawling up my neck late friday night,,,


----------



## rick1iam

I had it about 10 yrs ago. A blood test in April finally caught it. I had to have it since the Fall or probably the Spring of the previous year. A month of antibiotics cleared it. 

My current doctor (highly respected old sage) last yr told me he has never known of one single case or anyone w/ld. When I told him that I tested positive a few yrs earlier he..well he didn't say anything. Not a word.

I had no rash. Just cold & flu like symptoms all winter. 

Be careful.


----------



## snaggs

Thanks so much for posting this info. Many of us exposed to the outdoors and animals (pets) need to continually be aware of Lime Disease and other diseases lurking in the woods and waters. Keep safe and check yourself and your kids often.


----------



## solohunter

I spent four days up near curran in alcona county, three days picking schroons, one day walking my woods near the beaver dam, I sprayed my t-shirt and jean,s boots ect prior to two outings, I ended up with ticks on me every trip out including the trips i sprayed prio to,, and monday night had two crawling on me!!!


----------



## JohnD4980

We see quite a few ticks around here.

I just heard a video about a raw foodie guy, Kevin Gianni, he got lymes disease on a trip from a tick, he went to Donna Gates from the Body Ecology Diet Center and he is 100% cured... 

Thanks for all this onfo. Adds to what I heard.


----------



## petercandid

Hi anon5709,

Well dear, Thanks for such nice information regarding the Lyme disease. You are genius that you have represent this article in-front of all members.I like this article very much.I am some what confused regarding the bacteria and mosquitoes. Please provide more information regarding these disease. I am waiting for your golden reply.

Thanks


----------



## symen696

Very good post. My four year old was diagnosed two and a half months ago. Stage one oral antibiotics, for god only knows how long. He seems to be doing alright. However, I truely feel for those who have this disease. I know its hell, prayers go out to all.


----------



## Tdoghockey9

wow thats good stuff to know. Thanks


----------



## CrazyAssTy96

Oh wow this is good to know. Ill be sure to spread the word. Thanks


----------



## deserteagle

*From the State News *

*Lyme disease research*

*Jean Tsao*, an assistant professor in the large animal clinical sciences and fisheries and wildlife departments, is leading a four-year study to determine why the Lyme disease pathogen isnt everywhere a Lyme disease-carrying tick is located.
*Lyme disease* is an illness causing fever, chills and body aches that is caused by tick bites and is common in wooded areas. *
A five-university* consortium  MSU , the University of Montreal, the University of Rhode Island, Hofstra University, the University of Tennessee and Georgia Southern University  will explore three hypotheses about how ecological factors play a role in the uneven spread of the disease.
*The $2.5-million* study is funded by the National Science Foundation and is a joint program with the National Institutes of Health, Tsao said. *
Tsao said the* studys results are expected to help the group to predict the future spread of the disease and allow members of the health community better manage it.


----------



## deserteagle

I can't post a link as a new member... but if you go to michigan.gov / emergingdiseases - there is a Lyme Disease tab on the left hand side that has lots of info from MDCH and DNR... I also happen to work in the cubicle next to MDCH's Lyme Disease expert and zoonotic epidemiologist. Our office line is 517-335-8165...


----------



## aolujumu

God, thanks for the information
I was very refreshing to learn this new stuff...


----------



## rlf

Hi my name is Melissa. I wanted to thank you for bringing this info to others. I've had Lyme for 30 years, misdiagnosed until the last 5 to 10 years. All the info that I have learned is much like yours. One of the important things I have learned is about the diagnosis. The doctor I found in saginaw, which I'm in Sparta, has said the clinical diagnosis is best. I had to write a lengthy page of when my symtoms started until my first visit with this doctor, which was 2 -half years ago. The blood test can give false negatives, so its extra important to have the clinical diagnosis. I was bit in 1979 while on a trip to Gogebic in the U.P. I was pregnant at the time and I ended up with a rash on my leg. There were alot of wierd bugs up there and I never saw what bit me. I thought I reacted with the rash because I was pregnant. While being pregnant women can react differently to every thing. I did get sick later on in the pregnancy, but I thought it was just a bad cold or flu. It wasn't until about 2 years after that I starting having more symtoms. This has definitely been a very difficult and very debilitating illness. One of the other things I've learned is the same antibiotic does'nt work on everyone. The Doctor had me use several different ones until we found the right one or two. I'm about 50 to 75% better after a couple of years, with more treatment to go,which does'nt seem that long considering how long I've been dealing with this. For everyone's info: Dr Ledtke of Saginaw Michigan is my Dr.


----------



## davidmorgan744

This is really a very good and perfect information about the Lyme diseases. It covers all its cause, effects , symptoms etc. It is useful for me and others.


----------



## The Eternal Sportsman

VERY WELL DONE and THANK YOU!
I remember getting about 8 ticks on each of my legs when I was down in Kentucky Hunting....Freaked me right out because LD was the first thought to run through my mind!


----------



## Williamsarchery_MI

Lyme disease and other sickness can be controlled more effectively in our deer herds with the help of wolves. There are only 600 wolves in the state of Michigan and are just on the rebound. Yes tags were issued this past year for the hunt of wolves, but they need about another 4 years or so before the numbers are good enough for them to be hunt-able. Our tags we buy for hunting and fishing do help us conserve our wildlife for future generations to enjoy. However to further control the spread of sickly deer with wolves its more likely that all sick or otherwise infected animals with lyme disease, are better managed. As hunters with the DNR we do our part as best as we can. Wolves are hunting around the clock and minimize overpopulation of deer and other animals. Wolves must remain listed until they reach a maxium population of 4,000.00 before they are hunt-able. To reduce lyme disease this is our state's best option.


----------



## oilcan

That there is a very uniformed response and has very little to do with lyme or ticks.


----------



## Jager Pro

Williamsarchery_MI said:


> Lyme disease and other sickness can be controlled more effectively in our deer herds with the help of wolves. There are only 600 wolves in the state of Michigan and are just on the rebound. Yes tags were issued this past year for the hunt of wolves, but they need about another 4 years or so before the numbers are good enough for them to be hunt-able. Our tags we buy for hunting and fishing do help us conserve our wildlife for future generations to enjoy. However to further control the spread of sickly deer with wolves its more likely that all sick or otherwise infected animals with lyme disease, are better managed. As hunters with the DNR we do our part as best as we can. Wolves are hunting around the clock and minimize overpopulation of deer and other animals. Wolves must remain listed until they reach a maxium population of 4,000.00 before they are hunt-able. To reduce lyme disease this is our state's best option.


4,000 wolves, you must be out of your mind. 600 is already too much and you want more!


----------



## Luv2hunteup

I find it kind if funny that someone wants wolves to control deer in a peninsula that doesn't have a problem with limes disease.


----------



## stickbow shooter

Williamsarchery_MI said:


> Lyme disease and other sickness can be controlled more effectively in our deer herds with the help of wolves. There are only 600 wolves in the state of Michigan and are just on the rebound. Yes tags were issued this past year for the hunt of wolves, but they need about another 4 years or so before the numbers are good enough for them to be hunt-able. Our tags we buy for hunting and fishing do help us conserve our wildlife for future generations to enjoy. However to further control the spread of sickly deer with wolves its more likely that all sick or otherwise infected animals with lyme disease, are better managed. As hunters with the DNR we do our part as best as we can. Wolves are hunting around the clock and minimize overpopulation of deer and other animals. Wolves must remain listed until they reach a maxium population of 4,000.00 before they are hunt-able. To reduce lyme disease this is our state's best option.


Sounds like someone's fishing.


----------



## TravisJohnson

anon5709 said:


> Hello everyone!!
> 
> I am relatively new to this site and the sport of hunting but have been battling Lyme Disease the past 3 years of my life. Due to the tremendous toll this illness has taken on my life and due to the amount of sportsmen and women I am coming across who do not know much about Lyme Disease or whom have many questions, I have decided to post some basic info. I hope that this information will reach and help at least one person who has or knows of someone who may have been bitten by an infected tick. If I can reach only one person and help them find more info about Lyme, my goal has been met!
> 
> Disclaimer: I am a nurse, but not a doctor!! I am in no way, shape, or form attempting to offer medical advice or diagnose anyone with Lyme Disease or any other disease!!
> 
> Feel free to post a reply or contact me or any other the other resources at the end of this thread if you have any additional questions or have any comments.
> 
> *What is Lyme Disease? *
> Lyme Disease (abbreviated LD in this thread) is a spirochetal bacterial infection that is thought to be transmitted predominately the bite of the Ixodes Scapularis tick, commonly referred to as the deer tick, as shown here-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Size of Ticks-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other species of ticks, such as the dog tick, wood tick, Lone-star tick, rabbit tick, and biting insects such as deer flies, horse flies, and mosquitoes have been shown to carry the Lyme Disease bacteria. It is important to remember that not all ticks carry the Lyme bacteria.
> 
> *Is Lyme Disease a new disease?*
> The history of LD is fascinating. It was first recognized in 1976 by doctors at Yale University in Connecticut. There was a cluster of children living in three towns on the coast of Connecticut diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis. In 1975, two mothers in Lyme, Connecticut became very suspicious that something else was brewing and brought it to the attention of the CT State Dept. of Health. The researchers found that most of the patients with arthritis lived in heavily wooded areas with the first symptoms beginning in summer. In addition, the disease was not contagious from person to person.
> 
> Curiously, several patients remembered having had a bulls-eye rash before the arthritis began. It turned out that the same round red skin rash, named Erythema Migrans (EM), which is shown here-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It also became very clear that Lyme Arthritis was actually a more complex illness that not only involved the skin, but also impacted the nerves and heart muscle of both children and adults.
> 
> In 1982, Dr. William Burgdorfer was able to find within the tick the spirochete bacteria that causes LD. Subsequently, the bacteria was named Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb). This discovery was a major step in being able to tie the worldwide picture of LD together as well as becoming the springboard for further research regarding the biology, transmission, treatment, and prevention of this disease.
> 
> *Who gets Lyme Disease?*
> Anybody can get LD. People who frequent the woods and forest edges such as campers, hikers, outdoor workers, and hunters are generally more likely to come in contact with ticks. However, LD has also become a suburban illness because new home development has encroached on the woodland. Ticks feed on field mice, deer, and other rodents and birds. Domestic animals such as dogs, cats, horses, and cattle can also become host to the ticks. Although these animals are possible carriers on LD, it is not believed that they can transmit the disease directly to humans. What can occur is that pets can bring ticks into our yards and homes, leaving us susceptible to being bitten. Birds, mice, and rodents passing through our yards can also deposit these unwelcome guests near our homes.
> 
> *What are the symptoms?*
> Lyme disease is thought to occur in three stages, however, they can overlap and not all patients go through all three stages. About 30% of the patients may get the bulls-eye rash. It usually starts at the bite site, but may also appear anywhere on the body. The rash may grow in a circular pattern like a target. Not all Lyme rashes are bulls-eye rashes and many people do not recall having a red rash.
> 
> In some cases, fatigue, fever, chills, headache, stiff neck, muscle/joint aches, or other flu-like symptoms are the first indication of illness. In the weeks, or months following a tick bite, the pain (or weakness) in the joints, muscles, tendons, or bones may become migratory and move to other areas of the body. Temporary heart involvement may cause palpitations or fainting. Severe itching, temperature fluctuations, and vision problems may occur. A multitude of symptoms may come and go, causing doctors to treat only the symptoms and not recognize the overall systemic nature of LD.
> 
> *SYMPTOM LIST:*
> The following symptoms of LD vary on severity or the infection and the amount of time before treatment. You may have some, many, or even different symptoms than listed.
> 
> *Eyes or Vision:*
> Inflammation of the membranes lining eyelids
> Inflammation of the eye
> Loss of normal papillary reflexes in response to light
> Inflammation of optic nerve
> Abnormal sensitivity to light
> Double vision
> Inflammation of the iris
> 
> *Heart:*
> Slowed heart rhythm caused by improper conduction of electrical signals in and to the heart
> Inflammation of the heart muscle and/or the membrane surrounding the heart
> Irregular heartbeats
> Enlarged heart
> Fainting, dizziness
> Shortness of breath
> Chest pain (may feel like a heart attack)
> Rapid heartbeat or skipped beats
> A triple cadence in heart sounds caused by an abnormal third or fourth beat
> 
> *Arthritic:*
> Painful joints
> Arthritis, inflamed joints
> Inflammation of muscles and/or tendons
> Disease located in the muscles
> A collection of fluid that has escaped the knee joint or a bursa and formed a new sac in an adjacent area
> 
> *Neurologic:*
> Paralysis of facial nerve
> Meningitis
> Disease of spinal nerve root
> Inflammation of the brain, multiple nerves, spinal cord, and/or arteries in the brain
> Disease of peripheral nerves, and/or nerve networks
> Spasmodic movements of limbs and/or facial muscles
> Loss of muscle coordination caused by disease in the cerebellum of the brain
> Partial paralysis of muscles, and/or Bells Palsy
> Seizures
> Headaches ranging from mild to severe
> Stiff neck
> Impairment of normal sensations
> Abnormal sensations: itching, prickling, tingling,
> Sleeping disturbances
> Hearing loss or hypersensitivity to sounds
> Ringing in ears
> Partial paralysis of one side
> Paralysis of lower extremities
> 
> *Neuropsychiatric:*
> Mood swings
> Irritability
> Poor concentration
> Instability
> Forgetfulness/ memory loss
> General deterioration
> Psychosis
> Loss of appetite
> 
> *Other Symptoms:*
> Fever
> Fatigue
> Sore throat
> Disease of lymph nodes/ enlarged lymph nodes
> Enlarged spleen
> Enlarged liver
> Testicular swelling
> Nausea
> Vomiting
> Cough
> Hoarseness
> Diarrhea
> Abdominal pain
> Rashes
> Menstrual irregularity
> Speech problems
> 
> In some untreated patients, the spirochete will remain inactive and never create any severe problems. However, in other patients, the untreated infection may result in the development of other problems associated with Lyme. Because so many individuals do not get the rash, LD may go undiagnosed.
> 
> LD infection that has gone undetected, or inadequately treated can lead to a chronic state called late-stage Lyme Disease. This stage includes debilitation arthritis, bouts of numbness in the limbs, Bells palsy, and neurological disorders. Symptoms may go into temporary remission and then recur or be replaced with new symptoms.
> 
> Lyme Disease is often called The Great Imitator because it can mimic other diseases, such as Lupus, Lou Gehrigs Disease/ Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS), Multiple Sclerosis, or Parkinsons Disease. LD can present with such an array of symptoms that are often the same as these listed illnesses so those who have been diagnosed with these named illnesses should ask their doctor to confirm that LD is not the cause of their symptoms.
> 
> *How is Lyme Disease diagnosed?*
> Lyme Disease is a clinical diagnosis, meaning it is based on your clinical symptoms. Perhaps the most serious problem facing Lyme victims is diagnosing the disease. LD mimics so many other illnesses and the pattern of symptoms varies from patient to patient. At present, there are four tests available: the ELISA test (also called the Lyme titer), the Western Blot, Lyme Disease Urine Antigen, and the PCR, but are often unreliable. According to a recent study by the College of American Pathologists, more than 55% of ELISA tests were inaccurate. Of these three, the Western Blot is the most reliable. These tests are to be used in conjunction with symptoms and patient history. Some people test negative but still may have Lyme Disease. Education for you and your physician is a must.
> 
> *How can Lyme Disease be treated? *
> People with a known tick bit or known EM rash should be given oral antibiotics (abx) early in the disease. They should not wait for symptoms, as they may not show up for some time. Your treatment of oral or IV abx should be discussed with a Lyme literate physician (please contact the Michigan Lyme Disease Association for more info regarding physicians).
> 
> There are over 300 strains of Bb bacteria and unfortunately there is no test to tell us which abx works well for each strain. The Borreliosis bacteria is different from many others because it lives a very long time and has an extremely long generation time. It also may go into periods of latency. There isnt a test to tell us that your body has rid completely of the Lyme bacteria either. One of the best ways to help your physician is to keep a daily log so he/she may see which abx may or may not be working. It is very important to be treated as soon as possible to prevent the disease from reproducing and becoming a multi-systemic illness.
> 
> *Can there be more than one disease from a tick bite?*
> Yes, ticks carry other diseases such as Babesia, Erhlichia, Bartonella, Tick Fever, and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever (RMSF). You may or may not get any of these from a tick bite, but on the other hand, you could be infected with more than one bacteria from a tick bite. It is imperative that your doctor look at all of your symptoms and test you for other tick-borne illnesses. Research is ongoing regarding all these diseases and it is best to be educated with this information.
> 
> *Babesiosis:*
> A malaria-like infection caused by a parasite that targets red blood cells. Symptoms include headache, fever, chills, muscle pain, sweating, and anemia.
> 
> *Ehrlichiosis: *
> A bacterial infection caused by several types of rickettsiae which invade and kill white blood cells. Symptoms include fever, headache, chills, extreme muscle pain, anemia, decrease in white blood cells, lung infection, elevated liver enzymes, and a rash could occur.
> 
> *Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever:*
> An infection caused by Rickettsia rickettsii and has been reported throughout North America. Symptoms include headache, chills, flu-like aches and pains, high fever, and a reddish to black rash that looks like measles, starts on the extremities and can spread to the entire body.
> 
> Other tick-borne illnesses in the USA include Colorado Tick Fever, Relapsing Fever, Tick Paralysis, and Tularemia.
> 
> *How do you protect yourself from tick-borne diseases?*
> There are simple steps to prevention. FIRST be aware of the ticks habitat: bushes, tall grasses, woods, yards, and wood piles. SECOND, wear appropriate clothing. When temperatures allow, wear long pants and tuck your shirt inside. Pull your socks up over your pant legs and wear good shoes. Light colored clothing makes it easier to spot a tick. The use of an insect repellant containing DEET is helpful. Read the directions on the can very carefully/ Sprays containing Permethrin may be used on clothes only, and must be sprayed and dried before you wear them. THIRD, monitor yourself, children, and pets immediately after coming inside. Inspect clothes, undress and check for ticks. Check all areas by rubbing your hands over the skin. Ticks are very small and you may feel them before you feel them. Remove any attached ticks and save it in a small bottle with the date and the bites location. Be alert for early signs and symptoms and watch for signs of a rash for a month or so. Call your physician and record your tick bite. Use tick-control products in your yard, on yourself, and on your pets.
> 
> *How should you remove a tick?*
> Proper tick removal is ESSENTIAL. Use fine-point tweezers to grasp the tick as close to your skin as possible. DO NOT squeeze the ticks body. Grasp it where its mouthparts enter the skin and tug gently but firmly and repeat as necessary until it releases its hold. Take your time and be patient. Pull it straight out. DO NOT squeeze the ticks body. Wipe the bite area thoroughly with an antiseptic. Save the tick in a covered bottle. Record the date and location where you were bitten. This facilitates testing at a later date. Your doctor may find this information and the tick specimen helpful in diagnosis if a rash or other symptoms of Lyme Disease subsequently appear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can also send the tick to the to have it tested for LD. You can find more info on this here: http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125-1566_2403_2421-44271--,00.html
> 
> 
> *Links for more information:*
> 
> *MICHIGAN LYME DISEASE ASSOCIATION*
> http://www.hvcn.org/info/mlda/
> 1-888-784-LYME(5963)
> 
> 
> Michigan Lyme Disease Association Support Groups
> *Berrien County*
> Phone Support
> Elizabeth Marvin
> 269-468-4098
> 
> *Flint/Flushing/Clio*
> Meets 2nd Thursday of the month at 7:00pm
> Clio Senior Center
> 2136 W. Vienna St.
> 
> *Clio, MI *
> Mary Fairweather
> Email: [email protected]
> Phone: 810-686-9383
> 
> *Livingston County*
> Phone Support
> Bev Grunheid
> Email: [email protected]
> 
> *Lenawee County*
> Meets 2nd Monday of Month at 7:00pm
> At First Church of Nazarene
> 50 Industrial Drive. Adrian MI
> Chris Emery
> Email: [email protected]
> Phone: 517-265-5712
> 
> *Western Wayne County*
> Phone Support
> Connie Siese
> Email: [email protected]
> Phone: 734-326-3502
> 
> *North Oakland County*
> Phone Support Iris Ishman
> Phone: 248-625-8747
> 
> *Ann Arbor*
> Phone Support
> Neal & Meredith Foster
> Email: [email protected]
> Phone: 734-663-0756
> 
> *Oakland/Macomb/St. Clair County*
> Meets 1st Monday of Month at 7:00pm
> Church of Christ in Roseville
> 17415 11 Mile Road (I696 & Gratiot)
> Amy Holloway
> Email: [email protected]
> Phone: 888-784-5963
> 
> *Blue Water Area*
> Meets 2rd Thursday of Month at 7pm
> Acheson Community Resoure Center
> 514 McMorran Boulevard (Downtown Port Huron).
> Hillary M.
> Email: [email protected]
> Phone: 810-987-6415
> 
> *Grand Rapids*
> Phone Support
> Gretchen Meyer
> Email: Gretehen
> Phone: 616-583-0549
> 
> 
> 
> AGAIN, my goal is to only help educate others about Lyme Disease. If you have more questions, please post them or contact me and I will try to find you the answers or someone who can.


Good post buddy. It helps hunters to protect them from Lyme. It is useful for all readers.


----------



## FREEPOP

Williamsarchery_MI said:


> Lyme disease and other sickness can be controlled more effectively in our deer herds with the help of wolves. There are only 600 wolves in the state of Michigan and are just on the rebound. Yes tags were issued this past year for the hunt of wolves, but they need about another 4 years or so before the numbers are good enough for them to be hunt-able. Our tags we buy for hunting and fishing do help us conserve our wildlife for future generations to enjoy. However to further control the spread of sickly deer with wolves its more likely that all sick or otherwise infected animals with lyme disease, are better managed. As hunters with the DNR we do our part as best as we can. Wolves are hunting around the clock and minimize overpopulation of deer and other animals. Wolves must remain listed until they reach a maxium population of 4,000.00 before they are hunt-able. To reduce lyme disease this is our state's best option.


You are very wrong. Do some more research


----------



## CrankYanker

I'd put money on 600 wolves in delta and Menominee co alone. Neither with a hunt last year. If you haven't experienced it first hand, no need to comment.


----------



## reborn

There are more tick-borne diseases f.e. Q fever, Colorado tick fever or tularemia.


----------



## Charles Hooke

The good news is that scientist have known why we have had this explosion of ticks in the last decade. Michigan never had this multitude of ticks previously so why now?

The bad news is that even armed with the information the DNR is doing nothing to mitigate the population of ticks. The lives of humans have been put in danger due to inaction.

What is causing the explosion of ticks? Simply it is due an imbalance of nature we have caused. The cycle began with an explosion of field mice. The field mice population exploded because the red fox that once consumed hundreds of mice each week has been reduced dramatically by the introduction of the coyote to the state of Michigan. A fox will not stay in a territory with coyotes. Coyotes are not native to Michigan. Historically they were kept in check by the wolf which will not abide a coyote in its territory. Occasionally a coyote will eat a mouse but foxes devour thousands of mice in a short period as they are their main diet. 

Therefore to reduce the ticks we need to eliminate the coyotes and protect the fox until their numbers are increased in the wild. 

How do we eliminate the coyote. There are lots of options. The simple option is to re-introduce the wolf however many will have issues with this option. We could put a bounty on coyotes. We could publish the link between ticks and coyotes and ask hunters to kill coyotes whenever they see them. We could open up a discourse with the public asking for ideas. We could poison the coyotes like we poisoned the wolf. There are other options but a discussion about the problem must be escalated to the DNR and sports forums. 

We could protect the fox for a time from trapping. Trappers will balk at this but if we can eliminate the coyote or trim their population this should be a temporary ban.

Most of all we need to bring the topic to focus for residents of Michigan. Many people see coyotes as just big nice dogs and hate to kill them. We need to educate dog owners about the myriad of diseases coyotes introduce to our pet dogs. To read about the link between coyote and ticks click 

https://www.livescience.com/21017-missing-foxes-lyme-disease.html

https://www.mlive.com/wayland/index.ssf/2012/06/rise_in_coyote_population_link.html

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1656/045.020.0416


----------



## DecoySlayer

Coyotes are found throughout Michigan and have dispersed into southern Michigan without assistance from the DNR. Coyotes are found in rural to urban areas and are quite common but extremely good at remaining unnoticed by humans, even while living in close proximity.

Coyotes can be difficult to distinguish from a medium sized German shepherd dog from a distance. There is wide variation in the coyote's color, but generally their upper body is yellowish gray, and the fur covering the throat and belly is white to cream color. The coyote's ears are pointed and stand erect, unlike the ears of domestic dogs that often droop. When observed running, coyotes carry their bushy, black tipped tail below the level of their back, in comparison to wolves that carry their tail in a horizontal position while running.

This member of the dog family is extremely adaptable and survives in virtually all habitat types common in Michigan. They are most abundant in areas where adequate food, cover, and water are available. The size of a coyote's home range depends on the food and cover resources available and on the number of other coyotes in an area, but it generally averages between 8 and 12 square miles. Mated pairs and 4 to 7 pups occupy the home range during the spring and summer seasons in Michigan.

People are most likely to see coyotes during their breeding period, which occurs in Michigan fom mid-January into March. As fall approaches, pups begin dispersing from the den site to establish home ranges of their own. These young dispersing animals sometimes wander into urban areas. Coyotes are active day and night; however, peaks in activity occur at sunrise and sunset. Coyotes generally feed at night. They are opportunistic and will eat almost anything available. Small mammals such as mice, voles, shrews, rabbits, hares, and squirrels are preferred foods, but will also eat fruits, plants, birds, and snakes. In urban areas, coyotes are attracted to garbage, garden vegetables, and pet foods.

More info: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_12205-60378--,00.html 


http://michigannature.iescentral.com/news/article/Mammals-in-the-Great-Lakes-State.html


----------



## Charles Hooke

DecoySlayer said:


> Coyotes are found throughout Michigan and have dispersed into southern Michigan without assistance from the DNR. Coyotes are found in rural to urban areas and are quite common but extremely good at remaining unnoticed by humans, even while living in close proximity.
> 
> Coyotes can be difficult to distinguish from a medium sized German shepherd dog from a distance. There is wide variation in the coyote's color, but generally their upper body is yellowish gray, and the fur covering the throat and belly is white to cream color. The coyote's ears are pointed and stand erect, unlike the ears of domestic dogs that often droop. When observed running, coyotes carry their bushy, black tipped tail below the level of their back, in comparison to wolves that carry their tail in a horizontal position while running.
> 
> This member of the dog family is extremely adaptable and survives in virtually all habitat types common in Michigan. They are most abundant in areas where adequate food, cover, and water are available. The size of a coyote's home range depends on the food and cover resources available and on the number of other coyotes in an area, but it generally averages between 8 and 12 square miles. Mated pairs and 4 to 7 pups occupy the home range during the spring and summer seasons in Michigan.
> 
> People are most likely to see coyotes during their breeding period, which occurs in Michigan fom mid-January into March. As fall approaches, pups begin dispersing from the den site to establish home ranges of their own. These young dispersing animals sometimes wander into urban areas. Coyotes are active day and night; however, peaks in activity occur at sunrise and sunset. Coyotes generally feed at night. They are opportunistic and will eat almost anything available. Small mammals such as mice, voles, shrews, rabbits, hares, and squirrels are preferred foods, but will also eat fruits, plants, birds, and snakes. In urban areas, coyotes are attracted to garbage, garden vegetables, and pet foods.
> 
> More info: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_12205-60378--,00.html
> 
> 
> http://michigannature.iescentral.com/news/article/Mammals-in-the-Great-Lakes-State.html



One of the key issues with the explosion of Coyote out of its historic range is that the fox population moves out. The diet of the fox is primarily mice. Coyote only eat a few mice. All the studies indicate that where the coyote population is heavily reduced the fox return and the population of ticks is mitigated. It is a matter of nature in balance. I will refrain from the wolf debate. Wolves used to keep coyotes in check. Without wolves other steps [man] must be taken.  I fully support hunting the heck out of coyotes every day by anyone! I suspect we many need to protect the fox until the balance smooths out. The DNR needs to get a handle on the coyote and tick problem. 

please read these articles prior to weighing in:

https://www.livescience.com/21017-missing-foxes-lyme-disease.html

https://www.mlive.com/wayland/index.ssf/2012/06/rise_in_coyote_population_link.html

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1656/045.020.0416


----------



## Thirty pointer

Charles Hooke said:


> One of the key issues with the explosion of Coyote out of its historic range is that the fox population moves out. The diet of the fox is primarily mice. Coyote only eat a few mice. All the studies indicate that where the coyote population is heavily reduced the fox return and the population of ticks is mitigated. It is a matter of nature in balance. I will refrain from the wolf debate. Wolves used to keep coyotes in check. Without wolves other steps [man] must be taken. I fully support hunting the heck out of coyotes every day by anyone! I suspect we many need to protect the fox until the balance smooths out. The DNR needs to get a handle on the coyote and tick problem.
> 
> please read these articles prior to weighing in:
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/21017-missing-foxes-lyme-disease.html
> 
> https://www.mlive.com/wayland/index.ssf/2012/06/rise_in_coyote_population_link.html
> 
> http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1656/045.020.0416


We will never have the balance in nature that was pre human .Wolves vs coyote vs fox .It was a system that worked but was subject to highs and lows .We cannot duplicate it all we can do is keep it in check as best we can these days .10 years ago i had no fox but lots of yotes now it's turned i have few yotes and lots of fox no wolves though .


----------



## FREEPOP

Maybe feral cats could reduce the mouse population


----------



## 12970

That Might be a "Trade Off" If You Use "Tick Tubes" you need the mice to take the Cotton with Permethrin and when Ticks are with the Mice it Kills them! I have been using Tick Tubes for 2 Years Now and seen a reduction of Ticks on me and my clothing as prior I would have at least 1 maybe 2 checking before leaving my Property... So Mice Could be a good Things as to lowering Tick Numbers!!!
Newaygo1


----------



## Chessieman

Me and a buddy were talking about the ticks. They most of the time crawl up your leg and you can feel them hitting the hairs. We will be trying the pain ointment we make made from Marijuana extract (infused) on the first 2" above the socks. With any luck they will get off (i.e. high) and fall off. This is for sore body parts and arthritis, it does not get into your blood stream. This stuff works great and have witness old timers using it for the first time with their pains go away.
P.S. It's home made with the process on the internet.


----------



## 7mmsendero

Newaygo1 said:


> That Might be a "Trade Off" If You Use "Tick Tubes" you need the mice to take the Cotton with Permethrin and when Ticks are with the Mice it Kills them! I have been using Tick Tubes for 2 Years Now and seen a reduction of Ticks on me and my clothing as prior I would have at least 1 maybe 2 checking before leaving my Property... So Mice Could be a good Things as to lowering Tick Numbers!!!
> Newaygo1


I’ve been trying out homemade tick tubes, they seem to be helping.


----------



## Chessieman

A couple Chickens are the ultimate tick removal for your lawns.


----------



## Charles Hooke

Thirty pointer said:


> We will never have the balance in nature that was pre human .Wolves vs coyote vs fox .It was a system that worked but was subject to highs and lows .We cannot duplicate it all we can do is keep it in check as best we can these days .10 years ago i had no fox but lots of yotes now it's turned i have few yotes and lots of fox no wolves though .


Nature in balance is always an issue when a new species is introduced. I was born and raised in Michigan to family that spent the bulk of their time in the woods. I am in my 70's. Not once in my life did I ever have a tick on me nor did any of the children I played with. Believe me when I say we lived in the woods all summer barely coming out for meals. 

I remember decades ago when I saw my first coyote. We never ever saw coyotes as children. Obviously wolves kept them out almost totally. A wolf will not abide Coyote in their range. Just like a fox doesn't want to have her kit near coyotes. 

These days like everyone else my enjoyment in the woods and my ability to work on my property is greatly impacted by a massive quantities of ticks. It was obvious to me that something was really out of whack! Ticks are not a historic Michigan issue. My family an ancestors never had to worry about ticks. The few that existed were so uncommon.

So I got on the net and went to the library and read everything I could get my hands on to identify what had changed. The science has been done for us. It is not like we can debate as to the cause of the ticks. It is without any doubt the mouse population. Which is clearly due to the lack of enough mice predators which are primarily fox.

As man got rid of the wolves that controlled the coyotes and kept them totally out of Michigan it is up to us to reduce the population of coyote. Preferably we should kill every single one of them because they offer absolutely no positive benefit and as the cause of ticks they are making many humans sick.

Incidentally coyotes are introducing many diseases to the family dogs -- after all they don't routinely visit the vet.

I would propose a total open season on coyotes, introduce trophies for the largest numbers killed, buy the pelts or heads making a market and a incentive to people willing to hunt them for sport. In my opinion I don't really care how we get rid of the coyote but it is the goal we must accomplish.


----------



## FREEPOP

Charles Hooke said:


> Nature in balance is always an issue when a new species is introduced. I was born and raised in Michigan to family that spent the bulk of their time in the woods. I am in my 70's. Not once in my life did I ever have a tick on me nor did any of the children I played with. Believe me when I say we lived in the woods all summer barely coming out for meals.
> 
> I remember decades ago when I saw my first coyote. We never ever saw coyotes as children. Obviously wolves kept them out almost totally. A wolf will not abide Coyote in their range. Just like a fox doesn't want to have her kit near coyotes.


How many wolves were around at that time?


----------



## Charles Hooke

FREEPOP said:


> How many wolves were around at that time?





FREEPOP said:


> How many wolves were around at that time?


I have photos of wolves hanging on a line that my Great GrandfatherT and his neighbors killed by poisoning over in Mason County. How many wolves were there then is unknown to me but we know there were no Coyotes. Then when another grandfather was a young man he cut timber for a living and there were still wolves in the upper part of the lower and their were zero Coyotes. When the first coyote arrived and when the first wolf left is also unknown to me. However by 1970 I saw my first coyote and failed to shoot it. I should have. It took about 30 years for coyotes to overrun Lower Michigan. It took 20-30 years for coyotes to drive out the fox in many areas limiting their numbers. 10 to 15 years later the infestation of ticks began destroying the health and lives of humans.

Nothing happens all at once and nothing gets fixed instantly. Nothing would make me more delighted than for sportsmen/women to be able to enjoy the outdoors without threat of dying or being disabled by tick caused diseases. Kill those freaking coyotes now! Protect the fox for awhile.


----------



## 7mmsendero

While on the topic of animals that help with ticks, possums eat tons of ticks. Turkeys probably help, their family members eat ticks.


----------



## Charles Hooke

7mmsendero said:


> While on the topic of animals that help with ticks, possums eat tons of ticks. Turkeys probably help, their family members eat ticks.


What is needed is not so much animals that eat ticks but animals that eat thousands of mice. One tick lays thousands of eggs. One mouse houses hundreds of nymp ticks. To return to what Michigan was like prior to 10 years ago and all of history we need to exterminate the mouse and nature does that with the fox. Fox need to be protected. Coyotes are killing and driving out the fox. Bottom line is the coyote must be exterminated to exterminate the mice and tick.


----------



## DecoySlayer

What other damage will eliminating yet another species going to do? When will we eliminate enough to reach the tipping point?

The facts are this, you cannot eliminate mice, ticks or Lyme's Disease. All have been around for ions and, like or not, part of our natural environment.


----------



## DecoySlayer

I guess maybe deer should be eliminated too.

*"The finding shows that the ongoing Lyme disease epidemic was not sparked by a recent introduction of the bacterium or an evolutionary change—such as a mutation that made the bacterium more readily transmissible. It is tied to the ecological transformation of much of North America. Specifically, forest fragmentation and the population explosion of deer in the last century have created optimal conditions for the spread of ticks and triggered this ongoing epidemic."*


https://publichealth.yale.edu/article.aspx?id=15651


----------



## 7mmsendero

Charles Hooke said:


> What is needed is not so much animals that eat ticks but animals that eat thousands of mice. One tick lays thousands of eggs. One mouse houses hundreds of nymp ticks. To return to what Michigan was like prior to 10 years ago and all of history we need to exterminate the mouse and nature does that with the fox. Fox need to be protected. Coyotes are killing and driving out the fox. Bottom line is the coyote must be exterminated to exterminate the mice and tick.


In the meantime we can also try to use mice to our advantage. Put out cotton treated with permethrin on your property. Mice will use it for nesting, it will help kill ticks.


----------



## Charles Hooke

DecoySlayer said:


> What other damage will eliminating yet another species going to do? When will we eliminate enough to reach the tipping point?
> 
> The facts are this, you cannot eliminate mice, ticks or Lyme's Disease. All have been around for ions and, like or not, part of our natural environment.


You may be missing the point. Coyotes are an invasive specie. They never existed in Michigan prior to several decades ago. A few decades after their arrival came the ticks with the diminishing population of the fox. In states where the coyote has been controlled and the fox protected the tick population became mitigated. Coyotes do not belong in Michigan. We do not need this new animal in the mix.


----------



## Charles Hooke

7mmsendero said:


> In the meantime we can also try to use mice to our advantage. Put out cotton treated with permethrin on your property. Mice will use it for nesting, it will help kill ticks.


We use permethrin on our clothes but it is not very practical for our 20,000 acre hunting range.


----------



## Charles Hooke

DecoySlayer said:


> I guess maybe deer should be eliminated too.
> 
> *"The finding shows that the ongoing Lyme disease epidemic was not sparked by a recent introduction of the bacterium or an evolutionary change—such as a mutation that made the bacterium more readily transmissible. It is tied to the ecological transformation of much of North America. Specifically, forest fragmentation and the population explosion of deer in the last century have created optimal conditions for the spread of ticks and triggered this ongoing epidemic."*
> 
> 
> https://publichealth.yale.edu/article.aspx?id=15651


The deer carry ticks but they are not the originators. The mice are the origin. Coyotes kill the fox that decades ago ate the mice. Without such an efficient consumer of mice the mice are flourishing. Studies across America are coming to the same conclusion and other states are taking proactive steps. Michigan is asleep and our humans are becoming sick. Plus our tourist industry is in trouble due to the ticks. The average tourist is properly afraid of going into nature and coming home with a dozen ticks.


----------



## 7mmsendero

Charles Hooke said:


> We use permethrin on our clothes but it is not very practical for our 20,000 acre hunting range.


I would not want to pay your taxes.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Charles Hooke said:


> You may be missing the point. Coyotes are an invasive specie. They never existed in Michigan prior to several decades ago. A few decades after their arrival came the ticks with the diminishing population of the fox. In states where the coyote has been controlled and the fox protected the tick population became mitigated. Coyotes do not belong in Michigan. We do not need this new animal in the mix.



Coyotes likely first arrived, on their own, in the late 1800's or early 1900,s. Lyme disease was here LONG before that. They are native to North American and, like most animals, birds, etc, they go into area where the conditions are good for them. The main reason there are more now is that fewer people trap, or hunt, them, than in years past.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Charles Hooke said:


> The deer carry ticks but they are not the originators. The mice are the origin. Coyotes kill the fox that decades ago ate the mice. Without such an efficient consumer of mice the mice are flourishing. Studies across America are coming to the same conclusion and other states are taking proactive steps. Michigan is asleep and our humans are becoming sick. Plus our tourist industry is in trouble due to the ticks. The average tourist is properly afraid of going into nature and coming home with a dozen ticks.


No one is stopping you, or anyone, from hunting or trapping them. Neither the State, or the DNR, is interfering with that. PETA might, the Humane Society, might, not the state.


----------



## DecoySlayer

https://zookeys.pensoft.net/article/15149/


----------



## Charles Hooke

7mmsendero said:


> I would not want to pay your taxes.


Actually a very good point -- paying my taxes -- lol. But to be clear: Our actual property consists of just over 1,000 acres but it is not contiguous. 20,000 is the approximate area that the plus 1,000 resides in. To deal with ticks however one would have to treat the whole 20,000 across three counties. Just not practical.


----------



## Charles Hooke

DecoySlayer said:


> Coyotes likely first arrived, on their own, in the late 1800's or early 1900,s. Lyme disease was here LONG before that. They are native to North American and, like most animals, birds, etc, they go into area where the conditions are good for them. The main reason there are more now is that fewer people trap, or hunt, them, than in years past.


Lyme disease - as a problem - began in Lyme Connecticut in the 1970's. It never existed in Michigan. [This whole conversation is about Michigan not North America.] The species of ticks we now have in Michigan has exploded with tick varieties moving in from the South. [Indiana specifically was there previous stop.] 

Regardless of the many factors and animals that can carry a tick the field mouse is the primary host. This is not the first killer disease carried by mice -- maybe you recall the history of the black plague? 

Animals do move into areas where conditions are good for them. When the population of Wolf in Michigan were killed off the coyote moved in. With the wolf gone and replaced by coyote conditions for the fox went south! Without an abundance of fox the conditions for the mouse was heaven! With millions more mice conditions for the tick explosion became highly positive.

And with the explosion of the tick population the environment for the HUMAN tourist and hunter and outdoor enthusiast became very dangerous. Rebuilding the red fox population is the obvious key to solving the whole issue. At this point it may not eliminate all ticks and all diseases related to the tick. That horse may have left the barn. But in areas where coyotes have been reduced or eliminated the problem has been greatly reduced.

At this point I don't see the DNR making any positive steps toward this issue. Do you? Are you really just willing to live with the danger. Are you willing to watch hunting and tourism in Michigan slowly die? Only ridding the state of the coyote and returning the red fox has any chance of success.


----------



## 7mmsendero

Charles Hooke said:


> Actually a very good point -- paying my taxes -- lol. But to be clear: Our actual property consists of just over 1,000 acres but it is not contiguous. 20,000 is the approximate area that the plus 1,000 resides in. To deal with ticks however one would have to treat the whole 20,000 across three counties. Just not practical.


You should look into DIY tick tubes or set up a rodent hotel. Treat cotton with permethrin, set the treated cotton in tp rolls or in a large weather proof box. Mice get the cotton for nesting and help you kill ticks. It helps a lot, not as difficult as it sounds.


----------



## Lily Furina

I have been reading posts here with great interest. We all know that this massive tick infestation is simply destroying our tourist industry. Plus I am very worried about my own family. When I was a young girl we never had ticks. I didn't realize that it was the Coyotes causing this tick problem until I read the contributions here. Then I began reading all I could find online. These are very scientific studies that have very specifically found the cause.

I have to ask why everyone in Michigan is not on a campaign to rid us of Coyotes? And why are we not protecting the fox instead of allowing trapping fox for fur. The DNR should have a year long bounty of coyote. Plus we need to make the public aware of the Coyote problem and the connection to ticks. Too many of my neighbors think Coyotes are cute and some feed them in the winter. We need the public to know the facts and we need the DNR to take real action and soon! Where do they stand on this? Why am I not reading about this elsewhere? This is heart attack serious.


----------



## Lily Furina

I am very concerned that other people don't realize that the coyote is such a large issue. Why can't we all agree to put our heads together and do something? You know last summer the DNR paid sharpshooters to kill nearly 400 deer off a few farmers deer in our area. Deer aren't killing off humans last I checked. But ticks sure as heck are making people very sick. Why aren't the DNR turning those rifles on Coyotes instead of helpless deer?


----------



## DecoySlayer

Why do we need sharpshooters or the DNR to "do something? If you feel there is a problem, shoot or trap them. Deer spread ticks too.


----------



## DecoySlayer

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-happened-to-the-lyme-vaccine/


----------



## FREEPOP

Lily Furina said:


> I am very concerned that other people don't realize that the coyote is such a large issue. Why can't we all agree to put our heads together and do something? You know last summer the DNR paid sharpshooters to kill nearly 400 deer off a few farmers deer in our area. Deer aren't killing off humans last I checked. But ticks sure as heck are making people very sick. Why aren't the DNR turning those rifles on Coyotes instead of helpless deer?


I believe that you now should research man's ability to control and reduce coyote populations. Out west, they've been trying for decades with hunting, trapping aireal gunning, poisins, snares, etc and the coyote still survives. Many if those options are illegal here.


----------



## Lily Furina

DecoySlayer said:


> Why do we need sharpshooters or the DNR to "do something? If you feel there is a problem, shoot or trap them. Deer spread ticks too.


The thing is that deer do not incubate the nymph tick. Baby ticks start on mice. Something must eat the mouse and reduce the population. The best consumer of mice is a fox. In order to return the fox population back to normal and to increase the range of the fox the population of coyotes must be reduced dramatically. Whatever it takes Michigan must hunt the coyote into extinction. 150 years ago we began hunting the wolf. Today wolves are not too much of an issue in the lower.


----------



## Holly Tigerino

This is terrible. I had no idea that biologists actually no why we have been driven out of the woods and countryside by these ticks. Since coming here I have been reading dozens of articles indicating that scientists have known that the coyote is the root cause of the tick problem. It is irresponsible that the DNR is doing nothing to mitigate the problem.

It is also horrible that the media is not informing us regularly. Too many people I know are blaming the deer. Deer are not the cause. Like humans they are innocent bystanders! 

The DNR is failing us once again.


----------



## Lily Furina

FREEPOP said:


> I believe that you now should research man's ability to control and reduce coyote populations. Out west, they've been trying for decades with hunting, trapping aireal gunning, poisins, snares, etc and the coyote still survives. Many if those options are illegal here.


Somehow we got rid of the wolf in Michigan at least in the lower. Evidently this is why we have a coyote issue and the ticks. It is my guess that the coyote is probably going to be with us for a long time. However the number of them must be reduced and this is possible. At this juncture however there is no public recognition that coyotes are the issue. Most people do not know we must rid ourselves of the coyote to control the ticks. 

Just look at some of the comments here. Some contributors think it is the deer that cause the issue. That is a big error! Deer are not the cause but are just a carrier of the tick in the middle stage of development. Their life begins with the mouse not the deer. Deer are innocent.


----------



## FREEPOP

Lily Furina said:


> Somehow we got rid of the wolf in Michigan at least in the lower. Evidently this is why we have a coyote issue and the ticks. It is my guess that the coyote is probably going to be with us for a long time. However the number of them must be reduced and this is possible. At this juncture however there is no public recognition that coyotes are the issue. Most people do not know we must rid ourselves of the coyote to control the ticks.
> 
> Just look at some of the comments here. Some contributors think it is the deer that cause the issue. That is a big error! Deer are not the cause but are just a carrier of the tick in the middle stage of development. Their life begins with the mouse not the deer. Deer are innocent.


So we should repopulate the wolf statewide?


----------



## DecoySlayer

Lily Furina said:


> Just look at some of the comments here. Some contributors think it is the deer that cause the issue. That is a big error! Deer are not the cause but are just a carrier of the tick in the middle stage of development. Their life begins with the mouse not the deer. Deer are innocent.



Deer are not "innocent". They can move the ticks further, and faster, than mice can. They can also carry more of them over those distances. Birds can move the ticks faster and further than mice. ALL have helped to spread this disease. In CA it's a squirrel that is now the primary carrier of that tick. 

I would like to see a relationship study between the "explosion of ticks" and the stopping of the use of DDT. (not that I want it used again)

We know that this bacteria has been around for at least 60K years, likely longer, we will never be rid of it. It will out live Man.


----------



## Holly Tigerino

FREEPOP said:


> So we should repopulate the wolf statewide?


Did you ask that question to Lily to chastise her or were you serious freepop? Honestly I can't discern your intent. I can't speak for Lily or anyone else in this matter. While I am not an expert on the wolf question my guess is that this is not a palatable solution for most people. Yet the success humans have had ridding Michigan of all but a few rare wolves suggests we could rid the state of at least most of the coyotes. If nothing else the population could be greatly reduced to the point the fox can return. 

My question to you however is what is your counter proposal. Are we to live with these ticks and put up with children and adults dying in a few years from diseases ticks carry? What is your solution? I hope it is not to ignore the issue totally like the DNR is doing today?


----------



## FREEPOP

You, me, all of Michigan Sportsman and then DNR couldn't do it.
Everytime I think I make a dent, I see evidence that it's not possible.
What have you done about this?

This is what I do


----------



## ridgewalker

Lily Furina said:


> Baby ticks start on mice


Please see my post in the thread ".22 long rifle for coyotes". In addition to what I said in that post, I trap and kill as many mice as I can. Granted that is not near enough and does not, regrettably, make a dent in the population but I try, 20 or more by traps at camp and an unknown number by poison. It often cleans out the deer blind and they can take it back to their nests. I am not a fan of poisons but in this case there is no real option. Possums are the ultimate tick killer! Fox and owls are the best mouse killers IMO.


----------



## Lily Furina

DecoySlayer said:


> Deer are not "innocent". They can move the ticks further, and faster, than mice can. They can also carry more of them over those distances. Birds can move the ticks faster and further than mice. ALL have helped to spread this disease. In CA it's a squirrel that is now the primary carrier of that tick.
> 
> I would like to see a relationship study between the "explosion of ticks" and the stopping of the use of DDT. (not that I want it used again)
> 
> We know that this bacteria has been around for at least 60K years, likely longer, we will never be rid of it. It will out live Man.


Deer are innocent transport vehicles so to speak. Without the mouse there is nothing to transport. A single mouse hatches thousands of tick nymphs.


----------



## Charles Hooke

Here are the facts regarding just one disease caused by ticks in Michigan -- Lyme.

Researchers collected data from the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services on 1,057 Lyme disease cases diagnosed between 2000 and 2014, and aligned them with a new analysis of tick distribution across the state. Results showed that not only did the number of yearly infections in the state increase significantly over the 15-year period, but so did the number of counties where ticks had been seen, or found to be established.

And the number of infected people may be much higher than the records indicate, the researchers said. Because Lyme disease is frequently misdiagnosed as other illnesses, reported cases likely represent only a fraction of true Lyme disease infections — perhaps as little as 10 percent, the study authors reported. Therefore the number of true Lyme incidents is most likely about 10,000 +/- cases as of 2014. By 2019 at the current expansion of the disease the number may be 20,000 +/- this year. That is a very big number. 

Remember the the impact of Lyme disease progresses if it is not diagnosed within a couple of days and treated with antibiotics. Most people do not go to their doctor every time they get a tick bite and get an antibiotic. Once Lyme is in one's body and is not treated immediately that person is doomed to a lifelong problem.

The sad part of this story is that if we just protected the fox and killed the coyote we could drastically reduce the tick population.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Lily Furina said:


> Deer are innocent transport vehicles so to speak. Without the mouse there is nothing to transport. A single mouse hatches thousands of tick nymphs.


And the mouse is an innocent breeding "pen". It's all part of the same cycle.


----------



## DecoySlayer

I still don't understand why the DNR has to do something "special". The season is open all year, there is no limit and you can hunt 24/7. They can be trapped. What else can be done?


----------



## DecoySlayer

If foxes will save us, why are there still people trapping or shooting them? 

I wonder, there are no coyotes in England. They shoot every fox they see. Is Lyme disease as big a problem there as it is here? There are lots of mice.


----------



## DecoySlayer

A good source for information on Lyme's Disease

https://www.lymedisease.org/lyme-dogs-spreding-capc/


----------



## Charles Hooke

DecoySlayer said:


> If foxes will save us, why are there still people trapping or shooting them?
> 
> I wonder, there are no coyotes in England. They shoot every fox they see. Is Lyme disease as big a problem there as it is here? There are lots of mice.


Candidly I didn't know the answer to your question so I looked it up. It turns out they are having a Lyme disease issue. The South of England and the Scottish Highlands have been earmarked as high risk areas for Lyme disease.

The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice) said some areas appear to have higher prevalence of infected ticks which cause the disease.

Areas known to have a particularly high population of ticks include, Exmoor, the New Forest and other rural areas of Hampshire, the South Downs, parts of Wiltshire and Berkshire, parts of Surrey and West Sussex, Thetford Forest in Norfolk, the Lake District, the North York Moors and the Scottish Highlands.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Charles Hooke said:


> Candidly I didn't know the answer to your question so I looked it up. It turns out they are having a Lyme disease issue. The South of England and the Scottish Highlands have been earmarked as high risk areas for Lyme disease.
> 
> The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice) said some areas appear to have higher prevalence of infected ticks which cause the disease.
> 
> Areas known to have a particularly high population of ticks include, Exmoor, the New Forest and other rural areas of Hampshire, the South Downs, parts of Wiltshire and Berkshire, parts of Surrey and West Sussex, Thetford Forest in Norfolk, the Lake District, the North York Moors and the Scottish Highlands.



They are not "fox hunting", in England, because of ticks or Lyme. They have been hunting them, hard, for centuries.

Lyme disease has been in Europe, and likely England, for much longer. Fox hunting is not the cause. It's caused by a bacteria, that has been around for ions and is a problem because it is grossly undiagnosed until it's too late for treatment work. There is not a real good treatment once the disease has taken hold. 

The best bet is to use tick repellents to reduce your chances of being bit. Dogs should have protection as well. There is also a vaccine for dogs and hopefully the human vaccine will get another look.


----------



## Charles Hooke

DecoySlayer said:


> They are not "fox hunting", in England, because of ticks or Lyme. They have been hunting them, hard, for centuries.
> 
> Lyme disease has been in Europe, and likely England, for much longer. Fox hunting is not the cause. It's caused by a bacteria, that has been around for ions and is a problem because it is grossly undiagnosed until it's too late for treatment work. There is not a real good treatment once the disease has taken hold.
> 
> The best bet is to use tick repellents to reduce your chances of being bit. Dogs should have protection as well. There is also a vaccine for dogs and hopefully the human vaccine will get another look.


"What we have here is a failure to communicate." Hunting Fox does not result in fewer ticks or less Lyme. Therefore no one hunts fox because of ticks or lyme BUT the reverse would help control ticks and Lyme. if one wanted to reduce ticks and/or lyme and other tick associated diseases one would protect the fox population. Hunting coyotes and reducing the coyote population would enhance the fox population. 

I am not at all certain why anyone would so passionately argue as you have been doing to promote killing foxes? I get that some people sell the pelts. I have no issue with that if there is not a tick issue. But until we control the tick we seem to need a mouse predator and the fox is the best candidate I know of.

My own interest is simply to inform citizens as to the research and cause of all of these ticks. Then begin a conversation into how best to reduce that population...


----------



## Daddy

This site was interesting reading. It is a great deal of information to process. I hold no love for coyotes but have never hunted them. I know they are bad for the family dogs and sometimes crossbreed if the family pet is not fixed. I understand that the resultant pets can be potentially dangerous when they are grown. And we all know they transmit disease to our pets.

But I was unaware of the tick issue. But it makes sense I guess. I read some of the attached websites about mice, fox and coyotes. Interesting reading. I will need to do more investigation of course. Coyotes are getting out of control and decimating my neighbor's chickens. Ticks drive me nuts! I never encountered ticks prior to the last decade or two when I hunted. 

A friend of mine came down with Lyme two years ago and is struggling with the damage it caused. He didn't rush to the doctor to get antibiotics and took the whole thing lightly. Of course I once took the tick bites lightly as well. I welcome discussion about the topic. If killing coyotes helps I will sure try to do my part. I don't hunt fox but laying off them for awhile should be encouraged I guess.


----------

