# Pigeon River Country State Forest Plan review



## USST164

Here's the guidelines from the 1973 management plan.
"
Establishment of the Pigeon River Country Advisory Council is intended to:
1. Assure response of management to the wishes and needs of people;
2. Help to gain understanding, assistance, and support for the program of management and for decisions made;
3. Maintain a balance between various interests served;
4. Avoid implementation of programs or actions with potentially adverse effects;
5. help to overcome problems encountered in the management of this unit of forest land. "
################################################

When that plan was created there was 88,000 acres , with a snowmobile trail & horseback riders. Now with 30,000 more acres , the snowmobiles and the horseback riders are told to go play in traffic... as in HIT THE ROAD.


Here's a paragraph on snowmobiles from the 1973 plan .


" Recreation Vehicles: Off-road vehicles (ORV's), including motorcycles, all terrain vehicles, and snowmobiles will be allowed to use roads as governed by state and local laws. They will be prohibited from travel on service roads, trails, or paths. Service roads will be posted or have gates and signs identifying them as service roads, closed to public vehicles. To avoid disturbance to wildlife and possible damage to vegetation and land surface, no new trails will be provided for ORV's. One 12-mile snowmobile route located in the southern portion is marked on country trail roads which are not plowed in winter."


So from the start , snowmobiles and horseback riding were compatible with other activities in the Pigeon River State Forest for 25 years , until the recreational bigots got a hold of the decision making process.
​


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## USST164

Oh My God , The DNR upper brass should become comedians. They ban snowmobilers on the pretax of noise , but promote elk viewing from your automobile. LOL

http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/publications/pdfs/wildlife/viewingguide/nlp/56Pigeon/index.htm

Hey I can't make this trash up , this is what the " Best " in the DNR has to offer.

Notice what the attraction in the fall is , the loud bugling of the non-native species of elk.

The elk are also promoted as trashing the vegetation. My God they're tearing up the landscape. I doubt the horses are that destructive.:lol:


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## USST164

I keep asking myself can it get any more amusing than it already has become.

Here a spokesperson for the local Sierra Club talks about the "Big Wild "

" Tim Flynn, a volunteer with the Mackinac Chapter of the Sierra Club, said he intends to share his comments in writing at the open house. He said many conservationists want to see the Pigeon River Country Forest truly returned to the status of Lower Michigan's last "big wild" country.
"People call it the Big Wild, but it's not, really," Flynn said. "There are roads everywhere and there's logging and trees grown like a plantation, not a natural forest."
Flynn said more areas within the management unit should be protected from timbering and trees should be allowed to grow much older. "

http://static.record-eagle.com/2005/jul/24logs.htm

Gee , I wonder what their testimony was in front of the natural resources commission or the advisory Council. Notice their goal is to have an older forest. I hope the elk developed wings, , because the elk won't be eating on the ground as the forest gets older.


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## USST164

A Statewide horse enthusiast organization stated that to their knowledge there was no equestrian representation on the Pigeon River Advisory Council steering committee dealing with horses.

"







 The Concept of Management Plan revisions for the Pigeon River Country State Forest (PRCSF) recently presented for approval by the Department of Natural Resources significantly reduced access by equestrians in the PRCSF. Why did this happen? 
One major problem is that there were no equestrians, as far as the MHC knows, on the Steering Committee appointed by the MDNR to review and suggest modifications to the Concept of Management Plan for the Pigeon River Country State Forest. In fact, the MHC did not know anything about the changes proposed to the Concept of Managment Plan until November 2007, too late to have meaningful input into the Plan. "

Here's the garbage doled out by the Department of Natural Resources.

"Rejected was the suggestion to keep most service roads open to equestrians, even though no real justification was given for closing them to horses. Rejected were several less restrictive measures proposed to address the issue. Rejected was the request to study the problem for a year before taking any action so as to arrive at a less radical solution for handling the glut of riders during that brief time in the fall, as well as to address any other management or environmental concerns that might be identified during that time. The MDNR also indicated skepticism regarding resently-published peer-reviewed scientific studies that conclude the presence of horses on the trails were not responsible for the spread of invasive non-native species, and did not consider that evidence in coming to its decision."

I like that part where members of their own profession, said horses were not responsible for invasive species , DNR wanted to ignore the scientific facts. But would you expect them to do anything else. No , stab the horseback riders in the back and then move the knife up and down.

Trained professionals ??? , my you know what.


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## everlast1

USST164 said:


> The Morons at the DNR published their talking points...
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/PRCDiscussionSummary_230520_7.pdf
> 
> Big Wild this , Big Wild that.
> 
> Here's what should be done. The top unqualified bimbo management at the DNR need to be replaced pronto , the DNR hand chosen Pigeon River Advisory Council needs to be disbanded and individuals who are interested in increasing outdoor activities, should take their place.
> 
> Interesting that the meeting took place at the Rams center , as in ram it down the publics throat.


Agreed. Lets get rid of the Sierra club while were at it. They like DU and other organizations due as much harm as good. When are these morons gonna get it through their heads a MANAGED FOREST IS A HEALTHY FOREST


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## USST164

Don't look now Everlast , but I think you just stomped on a sponsor of this site... I would think thats not a wise thing to do.

As far as that group , remember that there are local voices that could be out of step with the national group.

I do find it odd at who's on the Forest Advisory Committee , that should come under scrutiny without a doubt .


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## Mickey Finn

USST164 Welcome to the site. Do us a favor and fill out your profile.


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## USST164

Mr. Finn , whats on your mind. You looking for a date.:lol:


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## USST164

Your dreams come true.

http://www.sexymusclegirls.com/wp-content/uploads/Image/bp6.jpg

OK , maybe nightmares , but those are still dreams.:yikes:

Don't you love the animal print theme. Ted Nugent eat your heart out.


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## USST164

It does get more interesting. 

The late Tom Washington , former leader on MUCC , supported drilling in the Pigeon River Forest. He said the overall drilling development , including the roads which would help give access to hunters and benefit the area wildlife because on more preferred vegetation versus a "wilderness style management that would severely restrict future management for hunting ' as stated by the then MUCC staff ecologist Wayne Schmidt.

Read page 204 of this link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rw...g=qKIa8MiA0mp_B4CUIxWoBBwGZW8&hl=en#PPA204,M1

So now what do you get from MUCC today with their depleted membership , individuals who are unqualified to make decisions like the old MUCC staff.

Perhaps the current unqualified staff at that alleged sportsmen support organization should go back to their old jobs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92utho4PjH0


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## Dick Kleinhardt

Great point made USST! We have observed in fact that now the elk prefer to graze around the oil and gas areas....why? Because after drilling, that area has been reseeded with rye and other grasses.. Only made it better! Just like in Alaska, Caraboo are thriving around the pipe lines there-:SHOCKED:yet they refuse to see it! It also stated that the oil and gas monies were set aside for the enjoyment of RECREATION of the public as well.....HMMMM! Ever see a sad COWBOY?


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## USST164

Mr. Kleinheart , Crude comes out of the ground there at 180 degrees , travels the pipeline at 120 degrees.

Scroll down about half way on the link , under technical details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Alaska_Pipeline_System

Up in Canada a spokesperson for the native polar bear hunters , said that they haven't seen so many bears in years --- but the Canadian government wouldn't listen and continued the process to drastically restrict hunting for polar bears. All in the name of this phony baloney goal warming .

Think about what we call Michigan was like 15,000 years ago , under a mile plus block of ice... I'll take global warming any day.


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## Dick Kleinhardt

Mr. USST: I'm very impressed with your knowledge of the issue. Maybe you should run for governor!!!!!!! I had dinner last night with a state representative who is working hard on our behalf. He is now getting calls from the senate side; the pot is being stirred! What we really need at this point is for all of the outdoor recreational users no I mean sportsmen; I've read the COM too many times now, to call their legisltors and the governors office. I told the NRC Commision that I'm getting the MOTOR CITY MADMAN involved! I know that he has the ear of Glenn Beck; now that would shine some light on this huge problem! I know that the "Tedster" would be enraged!! According to one state rep. "the DNR gravely underestimated the tenacity of this group" they thought we would just roll over and go away!!! I've even toyed with the idea of seeing if Ted would maybe strum a few tunes at a Major Rally. If you think 450 people at Gaylord was big you ain't seen nothing yet!!!! Once again I don't believe an *" intentionally exclusionary elitist agenda"* will prevail in this issue. In exchange for such efforts I would extend to him a great outdoor adventure at the OK CORRAL to assasinate some does!!! Our farm is being over-run with them. I'm a QDM guy and we are out of balance with DOES! The DNR claims that they are their deer! I fence our 400 cattle in pastures, shouldn't the DNR fence out their deer to protect my giant food pile for our stock as well the case should be made in PRC; they should fence the Elk in as well as utilize the $63,000 of grant money to be used for food plots. I rode in the PRC the 1st weekend in May and only saw one 4 acre plot. The viewing areas aren't even being seeded down anymore and they wonder why the Elk are leaving the PRC. They are invading the local farmers fields. They always follow the food trail. Maybe USST or TED should run for Governor! *Hang on to your LUGNUTS ITS TIME FOR AN OVERHAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## USST164

They would have to bring back capital punishment for government corruption to interest me.

It would be a replacement for early buyouts.:yikes:


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## Dick Kleinhardt

Capitol Punishment???? I'm all for that!!!! How about grass root involvement where the lowly taxpayers get a chance for input???? I'm however starting to get used to one way mandates; that way I don't have to think on my own so much!!!!! Yes, I would probably consider being your campaign manager!!!!:coolgleam:rant:


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## Cowgirlup1948

Hi Folks...Just returned from the PRC....Spent many hours on horseback exploring the so called "New Trails":rant: the DNR has restricted us to.....All vehicle roads...We are NOT allowed on the bermed roads...The DNR has REALLY put us in HARMS way.....there are many places where trail riders CANNOT get off the road to avoid trafic....There are NO signs cautioning vehicle traffic that trail riders will be on the roads. One really bad spot is accesing the Ford Lake Road traveling through the people camp ground area near the tubes...We had a hairy experience there. Had NO WHERE TO GO....:yikes:I just can't believe the DNR can get away with this kind of irrisponsible actions.....!:help:we did meet quite a few vehicles while riding the section areas and everyone was very nice to us...We always got off the road and let traffic pass. These areas are going to get much more traffic as the hunting seasons approach. Trail riders want to work with everyone so that we can all enjoy the PRC safely... Please lets try working together...!


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## USST164

The changes need to go before a judge. The changes will never pass public safety.
The system is set up with check & balances , this is where a judge would break the bureaucrats kneecaps. Perhaps questioning the mental stability of retards who thought this up.


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## USST164

You know what is so sad about this whole chapter. At some point someone is going to ask. Where were the adults when these decisions were made.

No doubt during these chain of events there was Department of Natural Resources Law enforcement division representation on the advisory committee. Now these individuals aren't true law enforcement officers. Anyone at the Michigan State police or even the local County Sheriff's Department would realize that sending individuals of all ages on the back of a animal out in traffic , doesn't pass the mustard when it comes to public safety.
Who ever was the DNR law enforcement division representative on the advisory committee needs to be brought back in for mental reevaluation, and by all means, don't let them have access to a firearm until it can be determined that their elevator goes all into the top floor.

You can say the same thing about snowmobiles , the last I looked those aren't the easiest machines to stop on icy roads , now add in automobiles traveling on the same slippery roads. Sounds like a disaster in the making by your own government.


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## Cowgirlup1948

Do you think we could get a Judge to look at this???? Sure would be nice....![


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## USST164

Cowgirlup1948 said:


> Do you think we could get a Judge to look at this???? Sure would be nice....![


Without a doubt ,all it takes is a suit to be filed. If the DNR says that federal funding goes to the area , then it could find it's self in front of a federal judge. If your one of the crooks who pull this charade , one of the last places you want to be is in front of a federal judge.

Remember the DNR has stated that they are going to review the current road situation in that area , that means several more access places will be barricaded to access. Watch for more "Director Orders" .


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## USST164

This whole " The Big Wild " was a scam in the making. They continuously rely on part of a statement by P. S. Lovejoy.

It was his " Vision " of the big wild, When he made those statements. The pigeon River Forest was a giant wasteland.

But if you do a background check on Mr. Lovejoy. He was against any raising of fish from hatcheries. He was against helping wildlife propagation period. 



In todays world he would be considered a heretic. You'd be tarred and feathered run out of town for having those opinions in today's world.

http://ww2.dnr.state.mi.us/publicat...feHabitat/Reports/WLD-library/800-899/809.pdf

Funny when you think about the scam , Lovejoy was against man's manipulation of wildlife populations, yet he makes a statement about his VISION which they just introduced elk in the early 1900s in the same area he talks about. Theres a reason the current brass has talking points about only looking at PF Lovejoy's "vision "of the big wild. You would need a closed pin on your nose to discuss other parts of his career.

Now you know the reason why the DNR wants to focus on only one part of that gentleman's career. Because when you pull back the layers like an onion it gets pretty ugly


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## USST164

More Pigeon River lies by the DNR.

http://www.michiganoutdoornews.com/articles/2008/05/22/top_news/news03.txt

Are the forest ( Aspen management for the last 30 years ) practices for the horses.... NO , it's for the wildlife.

Are the forest clearings there for the horses... NO for wildlife. The horses eat oats and alfalfa. The DNR is growing either one on that property.

Ms. Humpries back-handed indicates that there could be federal documentation specifically stating that horseback riding , snowmobiling and bicycling, could be in violation of federal funding, let her produce the documents that specifically state this particular piece of property is in violation of federal funding. SHE CAN'T.

What she does say is " other " incidences of DNR activity, came under scrutiny.

If bicycle riding snowmobiling and horseback riding, were in violation for that particular area, they wouldn't have any of those activities going on in that area. That's how you know, I'm correct.

Mindy Koch says the other users went along with the restrictions , that's a lie. The bicycle riders did protest, and they were able to get some of the restrictions removed.


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## Dick Kleinhardt

*DNR Makes Incredible Find*

Any credibility the Department of Natural Resources has with Michigan sportsmen is vanishing quicker than a whitetail deer spooked by a noisy hunter. It seems incredible that the agency has suddenly discovered a $10 million balance in its Game and Fish Fund when the agency has been threatening to lay off 79 employees and close some wildlife areas to hunting ostensibly due to a lack of funds. On Dec. 11, DNR Director Rebecca Humphries explained to the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Natural Resources that the unexpected windfall is due to an increase in license sales, operational changes and good returns on investments. It seems hard to believe that any of these reasons should come as a surprise as they should routinely be tracked by DNR fiscal managers. This sudden revelation by the DNR is disturbingly similar to the announcement by three state agencies last year that they violated the state constitution by overspending their legislatively authorized appropriations. 
DNR officials have been claiming for the past year that a large increase in hunting and fishing license fees was necessary to keep the agency fiscally solvent. However, the Legislature was less than enthusiastic about approving a substantial increase on the backs of sportsmen in the state, many of whom are feeling the effects of Michigans sour economy. It was reported in the Michigan Information & Research Services Capitol Capsule that Rep. Joel Sheltrown, D-West Branch, had reached a deal to use $5 million from the Michigan Business Tax to shore up the fund. I am sure that announcement provided holiday cheer to many Michigan businesses and residents already dealing with a nearly $1.4 billion tax hike approved in October to solve Lansings overspending crisis. 
Legislators should demand that the management of DNR fiscal assets be open to public scrutiny. It appears that the Natural Resources Commission, largely appointed by Gov. Jennifer Granholm, is not asking tough questions nor holding DNR officials accountable. A thorough review needs to be conducted of all the DNR programs that receive money from the Game and Fish Fund. The DNR should not count on significant revenue from fee increases to sustain its programs. For example, it makes little sense to have programs that encourage more people to take up hunting and fishing when the administration of those programs requires an increase in license fees  which results in fewer people purchasing licenses. 
It would appear that there is serious incompetence  or worse, deceit  at work in the way the DNR is dealing with the Game and Fish Fund. Michigan sportsmen and taxpayers deserve better. 
#####​Russ Harding is director of the Property Rights Network for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a research and education institute headquartered in Midland, Mich. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is hereby granted, provided that the author and the Center are properly cited.

MAYBE THIS IS WHY THE FED'S ARE MOST UPSET!


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## USST164

Some comments about the true use of Pittman Robertson funds.

http://www.michiganhorsemenplu.com/pittmanrobertson.htm


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## USST164

Mr. Kleinhart. The Feds have no idea that they are being " Used " in the issues surrounding the pigeon River Forest recreational takeaways. What should be done, is the House or the Senate should conduct public hearings and bring in Ms. Humphries & Ms. Koch under oath and explain their statements about federal funding and the pigeon River Forest. The public has a right to know specifically about the numerous excuses ( that seem to change often ) , more like lies that were used to take away opportunities in the outdoors.

On the budget of the department of natural resources. They don't need just an audit, they need a forensic audit, bring in individuals who put savings-and-loan crooks in prison over 10 years ago and let them run through the books.


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## USST164

Pictures of some recent changes at the pigeon River Forest.

http://www.michiganhorsemenplu.com/bigwild.htm

Look at those ruts made by wheeled vehicles , and the tiny trail the horses make... what a joke. I'll bet they want the horses to step in those ruts , someone needs to make a call to animal welfare organizations about this fiasco , with pictures included.

There needs to be more pictures taken for documentation , because this issue needs to go before a judge.


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## Chappy

Te he heeeeeee have camera will travel 
Stay tuned for more pictures of the BIG WILD..ha 

L.B.J remarked at the singing ceremony for seven conservation bills.....
MORE LAND FOR MORE PARKS, FOR MORE PLAYGROUNDS,FOR OUR CHILDREN TO USE.

some fruit cake remarks about a vision he had about the BIG WILD and turkey hunters gooble it up ...lol


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## Dick Kleinhardt

It just occured to me that the man we need to bring our concerns to regarding this issue is Glenn Beck! Now that man just recently talked about these elitist agendas sweeping the country! It's not just only here in Michigan!!!!! We need to shine a 10 billion power spotlight onto Michigan!!! The Wall Street Journal just had a scathing report on our GREAT STATE!!!!
The good ol' Wolverine State is the laughing stock of country!!!!! Our Governor is always talking about new ways to reinvigorate MICHIGAN'S TOURISM INDUSTRY and she's allowing this to happen!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH -------yaaaaa!!
Michigan is the Motel 6 of all the states and they aren't even leaving the light on for us!!!
Guess we'll ride in Indiana, Wisconsin or New York; places where they make you feel welcome!!!!!
Adios!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:yikes:


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## USST164

They'd love to see you go away. But the right way is to continue to pound on their lies for their actions.

You have a few paths , the state legislature , your federal Washington representative or receptive members of the media.

The excuse that the horseback riding , snowmobiling and bicycling to be banned there is because of alleged federal funding issues is like a wooden stake to a vampire. Once you prove that lie without a doubt they're toast.

You slowly unwind their scam, they are finished.

Another part of the scam is that they are saving this parcel from over use , except for the ones that have a license for some activity. You know thats bazaar beyond believe. You could have thousands of hunters or anglers in that area, but you get a dozen horses there , the DNR get chest pains. You know it's a scam.

I see the DNR's assertion that the horseback riders are damaging the area , is dealt with " ONE " fence post with a sign on it , that doesn't look like mass destruction to me. That should be pointed out to members of the media. The series of lies needs to come to a halt.


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## USST164

Pittman Robertson act is used for access to the outdoors among other activities.

From the Department of the Interior.


http://www.doi.gov/news/08_News_Releases/080221a.html


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## USST164

Good luck finding the wording in the Pittman Robinson act, stating that horseback riding, snowmobiling and bicycling are unacceptable recreational activities. For there to be a violation of that act. It would have to be proven that Fish and game funds are used to support snowmobiling horseback riding and bicycling, which is not the case.


http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusfd16usc669.htm#669i

There are other recreational federal programs that do hand out funding , but unfortunately, these types of recent DNR restrictions make them in ineligible for federal funding because of their take away of recreational activities.


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## USST164

Some Clown spoke at a meeting in the last month and said horseback riding cause user conflicts in the Pigeon River Forest. This lowlife said he was representing a turkey hunting organization. Here's the state of Michigan turkey hunting regulations.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/08SpringTurkey_print_219199_7.pdf


http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-30301_30505_31025-66207--,00.html
The pigeon River Forest straddles two zones, zone A. and zone J , a total of 9000 licenses are sold. But that covers 8 counties. And 4,348 square miles.

It must be crowded out in the field , or he's on drugs... Go with # 2.


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## M1Garand

He's a clown and lowlife for voicing his opinion and/or concerns? Much like you, he has a right to do that, whether you agree with him or not.


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## USST164

M1Garand said:


> He's a clown and lowlife for voicing his opinion and/or concerns? Much like you, he has a right to do that, whether you agree with him or not.


Big difference , I don't call for kicking out of the woods or off the water individuals that are doing activities I'm not involved in . that's what some scum-bags pull.

It reminds me years ago when a daily newspaper reporter stated that they should ban ATVs , snowmobiles and motorboats at a well-known recreation area north of Detroit. The writer also demanded the gun range be closed on the pretax that the individual could walk their dogs in peace and quiet. 
There are nitwits in the outdoors , individuals who said that other recreational activities on the 188 sq. mile of the pigeon River Forest are incompatible with their own activities are your nitwits.

I'm also not comfortable with some groups who insinuate individuals who fish was spinning gear on some rivers as being subhuman. A click group of outdoor elitist attacking their fellow sportsmen. A fish is just as caught as using some other method of hook and line.

Some don't give a hoot about any activity in the outdoors that they're not involved with. Look at the so-called hunters who came out against dove hunting a couple years ago. Before that , it was hunting bears with dogs.

Wait till the activities you hold near and dear are attacked , no doubt there are groups who have a file on everything you and others like to do in the outdoors and how they can get rid of it as you stand there with your jaw gaped open asking how can this happen.

Lets see how cavalier you can be when your ox is getting gored.


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## USST164

M1 , check in at that local turkey group , take a look at their current events.... For 2006. A real up to speed group.

I see they don't have an affiliation with the National Wild Turkey Federation.

Read that local site and you know why.

http://www.nwtf.org/in_your_state/lists.php?STATE=MI

I would hate to see his comment about the little blue haired ladies picking berries.


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## .480

"Lets see how cavalier you can be when your ox is getting gored."

That statement sums it all up.
Just wait Michiganders, the banners will soon shut down what you hold dear too.
Then we will see if you get riled up also.
Enough is enough, LEAVE US ALONE.
We all pay taxes yet the great powerful government feels that that is where our particapation ends. 
It is OUR land we better figure that out before Granholm and Humphries take it all away.


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## USST164

It's the sisterhood. Speaking of Banner , check out who this outfit is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk6dD_ys4l8


Someone should pass on all the people that are hurt when tourism drops off... including the horse people who won't spend in this state.


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## Chappy

Like I've said all along 
Granholm new no child left inside days <<<what a JOKE!!!
has turned into 
Lead your child in the road days!
we need to ship her and her garbage back to Canada!


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## Chappy

at the NRC meeting in Lansing,MI we horsemen when questioned the NRC about "OUR LAND" and "OUR" taxes
were told by The DIRECTOR...its not your LAND you dont own it!!!!

it seems as tho every trumpt up story the NRC comes up with from the Other side of their Rainbow such as:
Budget cuts: but somehow have found Money to purchased the Lee Grand Ranch and hire a new Law enforcement Officer. another FABLE from the NRC
Noxious weeds: but its okay if they plant them in the medows and hire ex- employees to farm the medows of the PRC...was his farm equ. free of Noxious weeds...another FABLE from the NRC


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## M1Garand

USST164 said:


> Wait till the activities you hold near and dear are attacked , no doubt there are groups who have a file on everything you and others like to do in the outdoors and how they can get rid of it as you stand there with your jaw gaped open asking how can this happen.
> 
> Lets see how cavalier you can be when your ox is getting gored.


Cavalier has nothing to do with it. Addressing activities which are potentially damaging to maintaining the area do. I agree with that if there is a problem. If theres not then I don't agree with limiting the activity. I did a search and some of the claims against riders were (from various articles):

_*"We initially got information that there were (mountain-bike oriented) user conflicts out there," said Mindy Koch, the agency's resource management deputy. "But what we heard in the work group is, 'If bikers are on certain trails, we don't see a conflict of use.' "__That work group was convened to examine the issues closely. Its members were hunters, anglers, snowmobilers, mountain bikers and equestrians.__The agency's initial recommendations called for tighter restrictions on bikes, horses and snowmobiles. New snowmobile rules went into place right away, but cyclists and equestrians chaffed. Both felt unfairly put upon._

_"With mountain bikes there turned out not to be a problem," Koch said._
_But that wasn't the case for horseback users. The problems turned out to be considerable and many._

_They rode cross country, making their own trails. They boasted of getting so close to elk that they could reach out and touch them. They disturbed elk and other wildlife. They caused vegetative damage and showed up on trails where they were not allowed._

_"Where there was work group consensus that bikers were not a problem, there was no consensus on any issue pertaining to horses," Koch said._
_Worse yet, no middle ground could be found. Where cyclists made a clear case about their use of the forest, their impact and their commitment to maintaining trails there, equestrians simply wanted to stop the clock._

_"They didn't want anything to change from the past ...," said Koch. "It was very polarized. There was no middle ground and they put nothing on the table other than to request that we put the decision in abeyance for a year."_

_*Jim Maturen, of Reed City, also intends to speak to the NRC about worries held by his group, the Michigan Wild Turkey Hunters Association. Its members have issues with a new forest management, he said._
_"It was supposed to be the last wild place left in the northern Lower Peninsula. Even though civilization encroaches, it's to remain wild," Maturen said. Increasing use of roads and trails by horseback riders is a major concern of the hunters group, he said. "You don't see elk tracks anymore. You see horse tracks. There are horses, horses everywhere. We want specific trails for them or eliminate them altogether," Maturen said._

_*Bob Jacobson of the MCF, had concerns of unenforced snowmobile regulations, unrestricted bicycle use and effects on the area by horseback riders._ 

_*Bill O'Neill, field coordinator for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, said all forest uses must be balanced, but concerns about horses are legitimate. "We're trying to identify how many horses we can have in the Pigeon without having a detrimental effect on the wildlife habitat or the recreation experiences of others. We don't want to harm the ground or run everybody else out," O'Neill said. The draft plan addresses horseback riding, and notes that horses' impact will be monitored by state officials, who must determine every five years whether horses are degrading the area's natural resources. It also covers logging, energy exploration and other recreational uses, such as snowmobile riding, hunting, fishing, camping, off-road vehicles and canoeing._

I've seen horse tracks myself and they were never an issue to me. But I do agree that if something is having a negative or damaging effect, then it needs to be addressed. I can't say that about horses myself as I've not seen it...but the local CO told me they were more damaging than ORV's. I'm sure he see's it firsthand. And if some of the claims are legitimate then I do agree...seems like another of the adage a few screw it up for the many. Unfortunately there are some who believe the laws and regulations don't apply to them and everyone suffers the consequences.


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## Dick Kleinhardt

A few years ago I had the opportunity to go bear hunting in Alaska! We traveled by float plane about 125 miles NW of Fairbanks and were dropped off on about a 200 acre lake. We took our basics: food, extra clothing, cameras, weapons and plenty of ammo. It was my first experience in a true wilderness area! In the four days that we were there we did not even hear a jet or airplane!!!! We saw no tracks except bear and arctic fox. We saw no trails, no roads, no pavement, no bridges, no signs, no logging, and no evidence of gas wells or oil wells!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I believe that a wilderness is created over hundreds or even thousands of years!!! 

*The DNR, however is trying to create a wildernes in as little as a few months!!!!!!!!!!* Wonder what God thinks of this???????????? Well I guess that if anyone could challenge God it would in fact be the MDNR; and they actually believe that they could win!!!!!!!!!!!:yikes: *Just overwhelm God* *with claims:* *after all, it's God, he'll believe it*!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

Maybe these zealots should board a one way ticket to Alaska, the Last Frontier, and enjoy the "*REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BIG WILD" *to enjoy a *TRUE WILDERNESS!!!!!!!* They would be really happy with no hikers, bikers, hunters, fishers, horseback riders, berry pickers, mushroom pickers, or nose pickers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They could enjoy it all by themselves!!!!!:yikes:


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## Chappy

I dont think that Radishes are a native plant of the PRC
or Buckwheat

Horses chasing Elk from the PRC: last week while the Alpena group of horsemen camping in the PRC had 3-4 Elk walk into there camp...between trailers.....I have been riding the PRC for YEARS...if you get off your horse
yes they will jogg away from you...if you stay mounted...you can spit on them
I also have pictures to Prove them Wrong on it...another FABLE from the NRC


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## Chappy

IMPACT ON LAND: welp folks Pictures dont lie and I have lots of them
Another...FABLE of the NRC

it seems that every time they try to jump over the rainbow to their pot of gold with their lip service about the Horsemen of the PRC there getting kick right square in the seat of their pant's by a HORSE!


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## Chappy

It just makes me wonder what new out right lie the NRC will come up with next in the plot to keep horses out of the PRC.
They can't even find the Outhouse to supply the horse camps with a simple roll of T.P. It will be interesting to see how they are going to patrol 118,000 acres of land.
I have never ever seen a DNR person in the PRC in all the years i have been riding the PRC unless I stopped by the Ranger Station and then MAYBE I would see one...but if you had on a Cowboy hat or gear...Oh God forbid
they looked at you like you had the plague.
I have never run into a hiker or biker that hated us horsemen as the NRC is trying to once again with lip service...FABLE


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## Chappy

With all the FABLES the NRC has Trashed us Horsemen with

I'd like to know ONE thing!
Where the Gawd Dam Facts!!!


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## USST164

Your missing something on the new patrols , it's NOT just the harassing of the horse people. It's with money coming out of the fish and game , that fund is for wildlife management and wildlife law enforcement . But in this case it's used to stop an activity that isn't prohibited by the Pittman Robinson act. But denying them access is something the Department of Interior would be very interested in knowing.


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## Chappy

Jim Maturen needs to get off the Blue Dot trail and hunt in the woods he wont see horse tracks....Ohhh gawd a horse track....wonder if he has ever heard of leave no trace..just a print...what a Moron!!!
Maybe he should SADDLE UP AND COWBOY UP...I see turkey's every where.
he sure is full of hot air and lip service...bet he can call in a big ole tom.

Bob Jacobson...another horse trasher...this is the man who put a letter to the editor of the Michigan Outdoor news stating that the rally in Gaylord was a GOOD OLE BOYS BASHING OF THE DNR...stating that us horsemen have been breaking the laws and for years have been illegally camping where ever we wanted to.....ig"no.rant, 1.uneducated 2.unaware NEED I SAY MORE!


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## Chappy

USST164
you are so right!!! hiden agenda


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## M1Garand

Chappy said:


> I have been riding the PRC for YEARS...if you get off your horse
> yes they will jogg away from you...*if you stay mounted...you can spit on them*


Apparently that is one of the issues, disturbing the elk. And what about riders going cross country? Is that condoned? There appear to be some issues, are you saying these allegations have little or no impact on the area? According to Mindy Koch, it's "considerable and many".

And what's the issue with non horse and horse people in the camping areas? You appear to look down on them for camping in a public area. Are they not allowed? What about someone with a 5th wheel who wishes to camp there and that's the easiest spot for them to pull it into?


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## Chappy

the Crier for NRC/DNR and the Turkey hunters Mindy Koch and her Credulous Statements about the Horsemen is as far fetched as Jacobson story to the Editor of the Michigan Out door News.
Putting something on the table infront of the NRC/DNR at a meeting where you were only allowed 3-5 mins to speak with Mr.Courchaine holding up a sign telling speakers they had 1 min to speak or their time was up. "WE" MS.MINDY 
where never given a Opportunity to bring forth anything to your table!!!!
We where FINALLY heard and listen to when we addressed the HOUSE on Tourisum and recreation!!!!
and I would like to add that the rally in U.P the rally in Gaylord the rally at the Lansing meeting..the meeting in Midland...how manys thousands of horsemen would she like us to bring to her TABLE ?
as far as her comment on we horsemen wanting to stop the CLOCK
and your reason for wanting to name the PRC the "big Wild"...ohh yeahhh thats right...the NRC/DNR want to stop the CLOCK!!! 
Polarized...yep i have all the polarized Pictures as Facts...what Facts did she have....LIP SERVICE!!!


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## Chappy

M1 the point i was trying to make was the NRC/DNR are telling us horsemen that we are pushing the ELK OUT of the PRC when INFACT.. we are not
when INFACT..the elk walk threw horse camps...when INFACT yes they will leave the boundarys of the PRC in looking for FOOD!! the elk are not affraid of the horses but INFACT if you get off your horse yes they infact will jogg away a few hunderd feet...they make it sound as tho the Elk are being chased by horsemen...and i'm sure there are a few Greenhorns who have tried
but for the most part we horsemen respect the ELK...we also like to see them
in the woods..and they come in OUR camps the feed After we break camp to EAT the hay and grain that has fallen on the ground and so do the Turkeys!
Disturbing the ELK....yeah right!! 
M1 there has never been any ruling ...posted any place in the PRC that states you where not allowed to ride in the Back country! just like Jacobsons story about how we horsemen have always illegally camp where ever we want
that sir is a out right LIE!! we horsemen do have rules and we follow those rules that are posted by the DNR! we are being accused of a rule that was never in affect!!.... another LIE is that we don't Pay...BULL ****!! like i stated before its all lip service!


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## USST164

"considerable and many " but amnesia kept her from naming those considerable and many. Just like the 15 acres out of 105,000 that were bought with Pittman Robinson Funds it was significantly more. They seemed to of left that out. Like what activities are specifically banned from the Pittman Robinson fund , oh there are NONE.

The approximately half the land was bought with Fish and game funds , as if the people who ride horses never buy a hunting or fishing license and NO accommodations for the other half of that property for the horseback riders or other recreational pursuits that have received restrictions. So much for the scam the half the land was bought with specific funds. The management activities in that region are around and the maintaining of the elk herd , so NO FOUL there.

The introduction of invasive species from the horses , but they're fed oats and alfalfa. but the elk ,they go out into the farm fields at eat just about anything. I didn't even bring up all the other animals that tracks stuff in.

They tried to imply that horseback riding damages the vegetation , but on the DNR's own web site they champion the elk thrashing that same vegetation

The DNR says snowmobiling interrupts the peace and quiet , that would be in the dead of winter. But they let it slide that for six PLUS weeks of bugling at all hours of the day by the elk in late summer. By the way , that would be Rocky Mountain elk, a non-native species.


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## Chappy

as a matter of fact we pay 
we pay for hunting permitts...we pay for fishing permitts...and yes sir we pay to camp in the PRC. 
yes the Horsemen are also Hunters and fishermen!!! when they refer to the fish and game money...welp...it was me who payed part of it also!


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## Chappy

yep got pictures of what the non native elk do to the trees and vetgetation in the PRC!


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## M1Garand

Chappy said:


> the elk are not affraid of the horses but INFACT if you get off your horse yes they infact will jogg away a few hunderd feet...they make it sound as tho the Elk are being chased by horsemen...and *i'm sure there are a few Greenhorns who have tried but for the most part we horsemen respect the ELK...we also like to see them **in the woods..*
> 
> M1 there has never been any ruling ...posted any place in the PRC that states you where not allowed to ride in the Back country! just like Jacobsons story about how we horsemen have always illegally camp where ever we want that sir is a out right LIE!! we horsemen do have rules and we follow those rules that are posted by the DNR! we are being accused of a rule that was never in affect!!.... another LIE is that we don't Pay...BULL ****!! like i stated before its all lip service!


Thats kinda like I referred to earlier, a few are screwing it up for the mostly law/rule abiding people. The only place I've seen horse tracks is actually on the road. I think I may have seen some on one of the paths a few years back and a few road apples but that's it.


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## USST164

M1Garand said:


> Cavalier has nothing to do with it. Addressing activities which are potentially damaging to maintaining the area do. I agree with that if there is a problem. If theres not then I don't agree with limiting the activity. I did a search and some of the claims against riders were (from various articles):
> 
> _*"We initially got information that there were (mountain-bike oriented) user conflicts out there," said Mindy Koch, the agency's resource management deputy. "But what we heard in the work group is, 'If bikers are on certain trails, we don't see a conflict of use.' "__That work group was convened to examine the issues closely. Its members were hunters, anglers, snowmobilers, mountain bikers and equestrians.__The agency's initial recommendations called for tighter restrictions on bikes, horses and snowmobiles. New snowmobile rules went into place right away, but cyclists and equestrians chaffed. Both felt unfairly put upon._
> 
> _"With mountain bikes there turned out not to be a problem," Koch said._
> _But that wasn't the case for horseback users. The problems turned out to be considerable and many._
> 
> _They rode cross country, making their own trails. They boasted of getting so close to elk that they could reach out and touch them. They disturbed elk and other wildlife. They caused vegetative damage and showed up on trails where they were not allowed._
> 
> _"Where there was work group consensus that bikers were not a problem, there was no consensus on any issue pertaining to horses," Koch said._
> _Worse yet, no middle ground could be found. Where cyclists made a clear case about their use of the forest, their impact and their commitment to maintaining trails there, equestrians simply wanted to stop the clock._
> 
> _"They didn't want anything to change from the past ...," said Koch. "It was very polarized. There was no middle ground and they put nothing on the table other than to request that we put the decision in abeyance for a year."_
> 
> _*Jim Maturen, of Reed City, also intends to speak to the NRC about worries held by his group, the Michigan Wild Turkey Hunters Association. Its members have issues with a new forest management, he said._
> _"It was supposed to be the last wild place left in the northern Lower Peninsula. Even though civilization encroaches, it's to remain wild," Maturen said. Increasing use of roads and trails by horseback riders is a major concern of the hunters group, he said. "You don't see elk tracks anymore. You see horse tracks. There are horses, horses everywhere. We want specific trails for them or eliminate them altogether," Maturen said._
> 
> _*Bob Jacobson of the MCF, had concerns of unenforced snowmobile regulations, unrestricted bicycle use and effects on the area by horseback riders._
> 
> _*Bill O'Neill, field coordinator for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, said all forest uses must be balanced, but concerns about horses are legitimate. "We're trying to identify how many horses we can have in the Pigeon without having a detrimental effect on the wildlife habitat or the recreation experiences of others. We don't want to harm the ground or run everybody else out," O'Neill said. The draft plan addresses horseback riding, and notes that horses' impact will be monitored by state officials, who must determine every five years whether horses are degrading the area's natural resources. It also covers logging, energy exploration and other recreational uses, such as snowmobile riding, hunting, fishing, camping, off-road vehicles and canoeing._
> 
> I've seen horse tracks myself and they were never an issue to me. But I do agree that if something is having a negative or damaging effect, then it needs to be addressed. I can't say that about horses myself as I've not seen it...but the local CO told me they were more damaging than ORV's. I'm sure he see's it firsthand. And if some of the claims are legitimate then I do agree...seems like another of the adage a few screw it up for the many. Unfortunately there are some who believe the laws and regulations don't apply to them and everyone suffers the consequences.



What a JOKE , you can't have it both ways. Either their scaring the ELK , or are so close they can reach out and touch them.... When they pull that crap you know they are struggling to come up with ideas.

Just like the alleged CEO saying that horse cause more damage . I saw a new barrier to the horse people, one fence post 9 feet high with a sign , the trail looked to be 2 feet wide. If it was an ORV issue They would have dugout a trench or piled up boulders to block , cut trees across the trail if it was ORV's By the way the area was clear cut with the aid of horses. All this on 188 sq miles... Duggghhh

Ask If the ELK don't make their paths in the woods , just like deer runs.


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## M1Garand

USST164 said:


> "considerable and many " but amnesia kept her from naming those considerable and many. Just like the 15 acres out of 105,000 that were bought with Pittman Robinson Funds it was significantly more. They seemed to of left that out. Like what activities are specifically banned from the Pittman Robinson fund , oh there are NONE.
> 
> The approximately half the land was bought with Fish and game funds , as if the people who ride horses never buy a hunting or fishing license and NO accommodations for the other half of that property for the horseback riders or other recreational pursuits that have received restrictions. So much for the scam the half the land was bought with specific funds. The management activities in that region are around and the maintaining of the elk herd , so NO FOUL there.
> 
> The introduction of invasive species from the horses , but they're fed oats and alfalfa. but the elk ,they go out into the farm fields at eat just about anything. I didn't even bring up all the other animals that tracks stuff in.
> 
> They tried to imply that horseback riding damages the vegetation , but on the DNR's own web site they champion the elk thrashing that same vegetation
> 
> The DNR says snowmobiling interrupts the peace and quiet , that would be in the dead of winter. But they let it slide that for six PLUS weeks of bugling at all hours of the day by the elk in late summer. By the way , that would be Rocky Mountain elk, a non-native species.


I agree I would like to know what the "considerable and many" as well. If they can prove a negative impact, I like many others, would probably support reg changes. If they can't, I wouldn't support it. And you are right about the elk...I've seen 12' tamarack and pine trees tore up pretty good to there's no doubt to me they killed it. 

I personally would like to see specifics on what they are claiming. I'm neutral on the subject, but I will admit, the few times I've actually seen riders, I've enjoyed seeing them.


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## USST164

Let's NOT forget , Becky & Mindy among others were flopping around like fish out of water about an alleged financial Armageddon for 2007 - 2008. Of course with some pointed questions they miraculously found a $20 million swing in funding. Now there's an indication that there could be $75 million or more unaccounted for. The right person was asked the questions but all of a sudden became Helen Keller , blind and speechless. That story still needs to be further investigated , they've had plenty of time to make up some lies.

Perhaps they have a lie quota and they used up most of them on the Pigeon River:yikes:

Let's say credibility isn't this group's strong point , and you can toss in the rubber stamps on the NRC.


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## Chappy

Summary of Public comments & DNR resposnes to draft michigan SEMP vegetation Management comments

www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/vegetativemanagement_23604_7.pdf 

The Sierra Club.....rollin eyes...OMG


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## Dick Kleinhardt

Well M1 that's the point: a few *bad apples* are present even in my own church----------it's called life-------but the overwhelming majority OBEY THE RULES!!!!!!!!! We pick up garbage as we ride-----------Do you think the garbage was from Turkey Hunters, Deer Hunters, Bear Hunters, Elk 
Hunters, Hikers, Bikers, Snowmobilers, Horseback riders or WHO??????????

The correct answer is that it was from some *"BAD APPLE"!!!!!!!!!!*!!!:yikes:

Furthermore, without any enforcement whatsoever by the DNR over the past few years what do you expect would happen?????????? But now they have officers actively patroling the area to keep the good people out!!!!!!!!!! *Circular Reasoning Once Again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Dick Kleinhardt

No it was not in response to what you said.....I realize that you are on our side!! It's just that we have been accused of offending some of the other groups and I just wish to make it known that we are not out looking to alienate these sportsmen. We just want to be able to enjoy the forest like they do with respect to their sport but keep our families safe at the same time! It seems that in every turn we make these days our rights are being threatened--where is the public outcry? :help: Just heard from a friend who fishes Tippy Dam area...there's a movement to close down 7 miles of the river to fly fishing only-- just because there's someone with money who does fly fishing tours in that area! That same friend has a friend that owns 2 miles of frontage on that river in that particular area....if this proposal passes he will no longer be able to fish the way he likes to....What Next?


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## USST164

Mr. Kleinhart , do you have a link on the fly fishing issue , I'd love to "wade " into that issue.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10371_10402-185989--,00.html

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2007-22_225164_7.pdf

http://outdoornewsdaily.com/index.php/archives/2828



I see more recreational bigots are among us.

http://www.talkflyfishing.com/index.php?showtopic=17174

this is getting interesting.

http://www.ausableanglers.org/

http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200607/profile.asp

http://www.crawfordcountyavalanche.com/articles/2008/04/07/news/news01.txt


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## Pigeon River User

Dick Kleinhardt said:


> :Welcome:Looking forward to next weekend in the PRC! We have invited many State Representatives and Senators to join us for a day in the life of "Horse Camp and for a Cowboy Picnic!" It will give them an up close and personal chance to talk with and experience what many families love to do....Lansing is listening and things are happening and this is a good thing! We will not give up-:banghead3-we will continue this fight for as long as it takes!


Is everyone welcome? If so where and when. Horses or not. Let us know


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## Ranger Ray

The river below Mio is considered trophy brown water as stated in the DNR study. A section that has allowed bait fishing is considered trophy waters, imagine that. But now we are to somehow believe that we need to eliminate bait fishing to have trophy waters. The logic is beyond common sense. Looks like another grab by the few for the few. Sad thing is that the people that are supposed to represent all are basing their decisions on public opinion from meetings where few show up. What happened to science? Kind of hard to make a case with science that you need to stop bait fishing to have trophy waters when it is already considered trophy waters and bait fishing is allowed. Trying to figure out who is taking my rights away faster, PETA or the DNR.


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## Pigeon River User

I have been reading a lot of quotes from the Grand Rapids Press of things Mindy Koch was supposed to have said. I do not believe every thing I read in the paper for one thing and for another the things they quoted her can be checked out and the things about horses are wrong if the DNR had no rules for horses how can they be breaking rules if the DNR don't have rules. DNR has no evidence of damage or erosion. DNR has no evidence of horses bumping elk away from Pigeon. DNR has no evidence that a $2.00 sign would not keep horses off trails that commerical out fitters or elk have made. The Pittman-Robinson Fund was the biggest pit fall. Grand Rapids Press if you said Mindy said horse people wanted a year just to waste time shame on you. Mindy if you did say that I guest you didn't have any idea how much work had to be done before a study could be completed.
Bill O'Neill if he had concerns where is he when there is a Pigeon River Country Advisory Coucile Meeting. Bob Jacobson a dear old man getting a little to old to be giving all around good advice as stewardship to the DNR.


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## Dick Kleinhardt

Hi Pigeon River User,
I wish we could open this up for the public but at this time our limitations are great!~Also our goal is not to overwhelm them with a borage of people at the same time give them the opportunity to actually see what is happening up there. We have also had many other requests to do this another time as well for those who can't come this time. Will keep you posted! The allegations that have been made against the horse people are the very reasons we are doing this day in the PRC for a few Legislators! Most of them have not a clue about the area and they are on a fact finding mission! We really need support behind us and ask you to call your senator and urge them to seek the TRUTH in all this!


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## USST164

Mr. Klienhart , what would be a major plus is to have up-dated maps with ALL the oil service roads , logging roads , former railroad beds , fire breaks , general government service roads , trails & regular automotive roads.


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## Pigeon River User

USST164 said:


> Mr. Klienhart , what would be a major plus is to have up-dated maps with ALL the oil service roads , logging roads , former railroad beds , fire breaks , general government service roads , trails & regular automotive roads.


That is another reason a year would have been better for the horses. The DNR does not have a updated map. Anna Marie in Lansing can e-mail you the maps she has. Her e-mail address is [email protected]. Ash her for the maps you can zone in on they are great.


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## Dick Kleinhardt

Thanks for the information. I just e-mailed Anna Marie for that. Hope it will give some closer look! I have an old map of the Pigeon that I have had since 1990 and I am sure that there have been many changes to the area since then!!! The whole area is nothing but a maze of roads and 2-tracks and would be very interesting to see it all layed out on a map! To qualify this area as a "WILDERNESS" shouldn't most roads be closed????:SHOCKED:Just a thought.:idea:


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## USST164

Dick Kleinhardt said:


> Thanks for the information. I just e-mailed Anna Marie for that. Hope it will give some closer look! I have an old map of the Pigeon that I have had since 1990 and I am sure that there have been many changes to the area since then!!! The whole area is nothing but a maze of roads and 2-tracks and would be very interesting to see it all layed out on a map! To qualify this area as a "WILDERNESS" shouldn't most roads be closed????:SHOCKED:Just a thought.:idea:


They're doing that as you read this.


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## Dick Kleinhardt

*BEEN THERE / SEEN THAT*! Just received maps and RULES also warnings....It states..."Safety First!" Please use caution when riding. Open roads are shared with cars, trucks (including logging trucks), snowmobiles and mountain bikes as well as horse.... 

It also states that *Dispersed camping* is allowed on state forest lands "*OUTSIDE*" the PRC unless specifically restricted. Also on state forest lands "*OUTSIDE*" the PRC, horses may ride on roads, trails and cross-country unless specifically restricted.:lol:


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## USST164

Dick Kleinhardt said:


> *BEEN THERE / SEEN THAT*! Just received maps and RULES also warnings....It states..."Safety First!" Please use caution when riding. Open roads are shared with cars, trucks (including logging trucks), snowmobiles and mountain bikes as well as horse....
> 
> It also states that *Dispersed camping* is allowed on state forest lands "*OUTSIDE*" the PRC unless specifically restricted. Also on state forest lands "*OUTSIDE*" the PRC, horses may ride on roads, trails and cross-country unless specifically restricted.:lol:



Interesting that with the leftists calling the shots , a few feet from some imaginary line , horseback riding is compatible with the State Forest. But a few feet the other way they say it's NOT.... Unqualified Clowns in charge , an absolute disgrace.


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## Pigeon River User

Questions for your week end quest. When horses where camped at the off site camp areas sign were posted only 2 camp sites. I see small camp grounds now with 6 to 8 campers in them. 6 out of the 8 were tents. The people that were talking about horse poop what are they thinking. Bucket with toilet seat covers on them and a tap wraped around trees for bathroom I do wonder about the plastic diapers the dogs and what ever dig up and drag all over. I see this with berry pickers, musroom pickers, fishermen, hurters, and just campers. I must say I think horse people must use por-a-potis in the back of the horse trailors because you don't see make shift toilets or so many tents. I know in the Pigeon you can't camp any more free with the horses but you can doing any thing else. Question why? Some one has to clean in up. All we hear is the DNR is broke and want more money from everyone and thats people that is paying more than their share. Put everyone in camp grounds where there is bathrooms and dumpsters. Thanks got more questions than answers but for another day.


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## Dick Kleinhardt

Pigeon River User...Your questions will be delivered and also we will be showing them the areas that you are describing. We too have seen all this and also have cleaned up areas where this stuff was left behind-including broken glass in their fire pits! :sad: It seems that there is a different standard for different folks...but this will probably change soon also. Its' just a matter of time for us all -users of the State Forest system and our streams etc. Will also be showing them the damage caused by the logging in the area...when they state that the horses cause damage to a few trees...is very mininal compared...They will surely get a close up look at as much as we can show them in a short time....We have noticed though that many of the 2 tracks that have been leading into the out camps have been MUCH improved since the horse people have been prohibited...taking out the big dips and boulders but, at the same time no limits have been enforced for the amount of campers in those areas like they did with horses... Guess they wanted to make it more user friendly for the other folks. Maybe because we are causing them grief and they know that they will be inspected by the FEDS to see what is actually going on! But, what I can't figure out is if they want this PRC to remain the _*BIG WILD*_ why are they fixing the roads NOW? That just encourages more to come and make it less WILD! Amazing! Just keep calling your Senators--your voice is being heard! We have many GOOD people doing what they can to help us get to the bottom of this. Washington has been contacted as well......


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## Dick Kleinhardt

One last thing I forgot to mention....Did you know that the DNR have closed down the portable outhouse by Cornwall Flooding with a sign stating that because of buget cuts they no longer can afford to keep it pumped and supplied with paper? Don't they recieve money from the Fish and Game Fund for this very purpose?:fish2: What does it cost to have it pumped once every 2 years? $200? If this area is to cater to the fishermen seems like these folks should be a little upset by this one!:tdo12:


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## USST164

Dick Kleinhardt said:


> One last thing I forgot to mention....Did you know that the DNR have closed down the portable outhouse by Cornwall Flooding with a sign stating that because of buget cuts they no longer can afford to keep it pumped and supplied with paper? Don't they recieve money from the Fish and Game Fund for this very purpose?:fish2: What does it cost to have it pumped once every 2 years? $200? If this area is to cater to the fishermen seems like these folks should be a little upset by this one!:tdo12:


Mr. Kleinhart , care to guess how much it cost to add dozen of signs proclaiming horseback riders are unwelcome. How much money was charged off to the cost of Fish and game fund for additional personnel involved with enforcing these restrictions.

What was behind the attempt to raise some hunting licenses and fishing licenses in some cases by 100%, it was the need for a lot more money so the heavy hand of government could squash individuals enjoyment of the outdoors , they don't want you on the water or in the woods.

The more they goon it up , the more proof the wrong people are in charge.

I would make sure that the information you stated, be pointed out to members of the Legislature.


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## Dick Kleinhardt

That's the plan! Can't wait---will be leaving as soon as the hay is chopped and in the bunker...first things first!:lol:


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## Pigeon River User

I know where some of the moeny went. You should see the signs and the piles of dirt as big as pick-ups on the trails south of Hardwood Lake Road. You know they wouldn't put up signs to keep horses out of the viewing areas when people showed concern put now they have signs all over to keep horses out of the 2 tracks in the woods. Piles of dirt as big as pick-up trucks across 2 tracks that traffic didn't cross any way why? Some campers ask me that questions I didn't know the answer I asked a worker he didn't know the answer just that he was told to do it. So doing all this work to keep maybe so far one quarter of the horses out of the woods at Pigeon is worth letting everything else slide. I don't know about the rest of you folks but when my money gets tight I spend it where I need to. Maybe some of their pay checks have to be cut so they know what is important and what isn't. If I was paying $15.00 a night and didn't have a toilet where I had to put my boat in a lake to fish I would be upset. I sure would run right down and offer the DNR some more money for licence so they could pay toitet paper not. If I was camping free I'm way ahead of the game and just go in the woods like I do at my camp.


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## USST164

Ask the DNR flunky who their superior was that gave them the order.

Also take pictures of these giant piles of recreational impairment garbage. The pictures need to be posted in a handful of places , with the caption does this look like a " Big Wild " to you. The " Killing of Kindness" is being perpetrated by people in green uniforms.

They can't ban hunting outright in the Pigeon River State Forest ( YET ) , but they can make it harder on the individuals who do participate in hunting in that area , the issue of the outhouse is a prime example , one jab at the outdoor enthusiasts after another.


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## Hamilton Reef

If you're lucky you can wander over to your UP radio motorhome and be interviewed by the bozo Rush Limbaugh wannabee.


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