# Any Deutsch Kursaar owners on the forum?



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Okay let the 2 week dead time conversations begin 

Anyone own a registered Deutsch Kursaar on the forum?

Just doing a little dog related reading today while searching for Versatile Hunting Dog clubs other than NAVHDA and came across a page dedicated to the DK _(Deutsch Kursaar)._

Was interesting to learn th DK has a similiar distinct separation from the GSP _(German Shorthair Pointer)_ as the Deutsch Drahthaar has from the German Wirehair Pointer.

Back to the DK as compared to the GSP. I am not quite sure how much of the literature is hype but the club states that since the DK was imported into the USA and became known as the GSP breeding has not been regulated or a emphasis placed on versatile aspects; hence over the many generations the GSP though genetically the same has evolved into a much different breed than the DK. (Same arguement as the GWP vs DD).

All this said anyone ever owned and or seen a DK work? And if so has there been a distinct difference in versatility, temperment, etc as compared to the GSP?

I am a NAVHDA member and praise the efforts of the club. However after reading up on the DK and DD (friend owns and breeds) clubs and the german versatile standards and expecations to be designated a viable breeding dog ive concluded NAVHDA is not a real effective overall evaluation of a dogs true "versatility", with more emphasis on a dogs ability to be a retriever and upland dog.

*Any insight and or comments on the subject(s)?*

Though i understand why i was disappointed to learn i can not test my GSP in the DK events....even just for my own effort vs any type of formal score. Even so i would like to train and handly my GSP to be the best overall versatile dog he can be, birds, fur, blood, buddy, etc.


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

A couple weeks ago there was a thread going on Griffons. Tom (tpdtom) posted on it once. We talked a couple times and he said he was involved with NADKC in the 90's. You may want to pm him.

You may also want to check out the VHDF.

http://www.vhdf.org/vhdf/index.cfm

Griff


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Hey thanks Griff!


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

What you want to know I have both DD's and DK's. My personal thoughts of the DK club is what the DD where 15 years ago. And some of the top breeders where DD 10-15 years ago.
Nick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Nick

*Having had experience with the DK and GSP did you notice a higher aptitude for the DK to be a true versatile dog over the GSP?*

The DK club page (www.nadkc.org/) makes sense when they refer to the USA name change of the DK to the GSP primarily due to its use as a bird pointer (www.gspca.org/) and this trait over all others in the USA evaluated, judged and used for many years as the primary attribute looked at for breeding in USA. (along with the health, demeanor, etc).

Im very interested in genetics and consider myself somewhat competent in understanding a fair level of it. 

All that said, with the base genetics of the DK/GSP being platformed about a 100 years ago; American selective breeding based on bird/pointing work emphasis do people truly feel the versatility (or fur/ tracking) ability has diminished to any noticed extent? Or is this skill not been evaluated, but is still there; hence hype by the DK club?


*Random sample of 100 DK's vs Random sample of *field GSP's heads up comparison* _ (*we will remove the chaos issues show has done to the breed and others)_ All exposure and training the same...all dogs evaluated to the German standard.. would there be a statistically valid argument that one breed has separated itself and performed better than the other in the versatile ring?


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Short answer breeding and training Take non NAVHDA breeders of GSP's they will probably go with a smaller dog and not be looking for fur or water. All depends on what you are looking for "horses for courses" 

Me personally like the breeding system that the DK have over GSP but with that said the top GSP breeders are doing a very great job and here in michigan some of the best are here.

You can pm me or come to the testing in march. And it is kurzhaar
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

I do not have either, however, I have been researching different testing venues for my dogs also. With people I have talked to first your dog must be FCI registered. Federation Cynologique Internationale, the largest registery in Europe. Puppies born here in the states can be FCI registered ONLY if their parents are.

My dogs are registered with FCI, FDSB and NAVHDA, they can not be registered with AKC. Which means I cannot run in any AKC trial even if I just want the experiance. Not unlike the 2 German test that are offered to the DK & DD that you cannot run in.

French Brit's as well as my Braques with FCI registrations can run in the German tests.

You are right NAVHDA has done a good job with it's registery and making testing so available to any pointing dog breed (pointing Lab's are not included). It give anyone with a pointing dog a place to train and test. 

NAVHDA was set up because there were not a lot of "versatile tests" in the 1960's. But was not the intent of NAVHDA to dilute or replace any other system of evaluating the performance of hunting dog.

If I am reading the NAVHDA AIM's book correctly when it is talking about the European hunter "Standards are high and the dogs perform superbly in their native lands. The reason for this is quite evident. In Europe, versatile breeds receive support from enthusiastic clubs, dedicated to imporvement of the breeds. True versatile tests cover every aspect of the dogs' ability, and only dogs with proven abiity are used in breeding programs."

In the US versatile dogs (again from the AIMS book) "To provide the *on-foot hunter*, for one reason or the other, chooses not to maintain a kennel od specialists, with a dog that will serve as a *dependable hunting companion.*

The only evaluation that is offered to a "versatile" dog without a registery attached is VHDF, which also offers blood tracking and conformation phases as well.

IMO, NAVHDA has deluted it's *evaluation system* and does not provide judges with a way to award an exceptional preformance. FYI; I am a 10 year national member of NAVHDA, I am also a national member of VHDF and the secertary to the VHDF national club. I run my dogs in both, and I use both tests to evaluate my dogs.

Sorry to high jack the thread..


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

You should look at the Versatile Hunting Dog Federation (VHDF.org) to compare testing and scoring. You can test your dog in that system which is closer to the German system without having to register your dog with another registry. You may also run your dog in the finished dog test without having to previously get a certain score. Plus, you can run in the finished dog test in several different places in the country and not be tied to a once a year only event.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Hey thanks for all the input everyone.

Any thoughts on this though?

*Random sample of 100 DK's vs Random sample of *field GSP's heads up comparison* _(*we will remove the chaos issues show has done to the breed and others)_ All exposure and training the same...all dogs evaluated to the German standard.. would there be a statistically valid argument that one breed has separated itself and performed better than the other in the versatile ring?


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Had another member on another forum contribute this response.

_Re: DK vs GSP are they truely different?
by DrahtsundBraats on Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:02 am 

I don't own either...but over 40 years I have seen MANY GSP and having lived in Europe for 11 years, I think I have a good feel for the DK. My answer would be that many GSP are different in type (smaller, finer, more "Pointer like") and that many are unproven as versatile dogs because of the interests of the owners (show, field trial, etc and other non versatile activities). However, the DK has served as a genepool for the GSP for decades. Interbreeding has been an accepted practice such that many GSP lines would be hard to distinguish from DK lines. This is one of the reasons that the DK organizations have not flourished particularly well....GSP breeders could tap into the DK without having to make any contribution, be retricted through breeding regulations, etc.

Can't be denied that the dominant breed in NAVHDA today is the GSP. I don't think any other breed has been more successful across all the various "games" here in the US....FT, NAVHDA, Hunt tests, etc. I think you choose a DK if you are committed to the original concept of the breed and want to support that and work with folks who are dedicated to that. But you will be in the minority and will basically be serving the much larger GSP group here in the US. If all you are looking for is a hunting dog, I don't think there is much difference in ability/potential among the best dogs from either group._


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

Rugergundog said:


> Hey thanks for all the input everyone.
> 
> Any thoughts on this though?
> 
> *Random sample of 100 DK's vs Random sample of *field GSP's heads up comparison* _(*we will remove the chaos issues show has done to the breed and others)_ All exposure and training the same...all dogs evaluated to the German standard.. would there be a statistically valid argument that one breed has separated itself and performed better than the other in the versatile ring?


Your first post was because you were looking for a different venue for your dog, other then NAVHDA. You were disapointed because you couldn't run in the German testing offered to the DK & DD. Most of my friends own GSP's I don't, but I don't compair my dogs to them. I can test in NAVHDA along side of them but I know in different phases, my dogs may do better then theirs while other in other area's theirs will do better then mine.

I feel I need to ask you a few questions are you serious about this conversation or just feel a need to poke the bear? 
There are trade off's in every breed, if you were to own a true German bred dog and want to hunt it like the do in Europe you may find it difficult to say the least. 

If there is a place in the US that you can let your dog loose; so it can chase down game, hold it while you get there so you can kill it I'd like to know (that isn't fenced in). Because this is what those dogs do, this is what they are bred for. They are also for protection - they protect their owners property. My husband was up in Canada bear hunting and the outfitter had a DK he would take him to inspect the bear blinds - the dogs would go in and let the guy know if there were a bear in the bait pile before his owner got of the 6 wheeler. They are also there to handle pouchers. They are living, breathing machines..


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

NO poking here, genuine questioning.

For my personal reasons of owning a versatile dog the characteristics of the DK are more desired than the more american specific GSP. I own a GSP but according to the majority of reading i have done and input from owners regarding the specifics of their dogs (DK and GSP's) my GSP is characteristic in both size and mentallity of a DK......that I am very glad for as when i purchased my GSP i honestly had no idea there was such a breed as the DK........i figured it was all the same dog.....thus the line of questioning to if they are truely a measurable degree different.

When looking for a puppy there are 3 zillion GSP breeders in the USA with litters on the ground all the time...only makes sense being its really an American creation and a pretty multi-purpose breed; vs not as many DK breeders or litters........though i have found what looks to be a pretty reputable DK breeder right here in Michigan.

I am not in the market for another dog right now. But when the time comes I like to be as educated as possible regarding my options. And in the event that some unplanned ordeal happened to one of my beloved guys I would like to be prepared with my options to make an educated addition to my family and hunting team.

The poster from the other forum seemed to have made a great comparison of the two.

Bob


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

I guess I understand, I'm still a little confused however. So are you saying if something were to happen to one of your guys you would lean more towards the DK's? What is it that you have heard/seen in the GSP's that has changed your mind about getting another one? It sounds like over all you are happy with your guy but... What's the but? Is it just because he doesn't have the DK before his name? And you can't run in those tests?

What level of NAVHDA have you been to? Have you trained and tested him in the highest level in NAVHDA that you can?

As for VHDF the top evaluation; the field is run in a brace and has more water work involved. The VHDF venue offers the judges a scoring system for exceptional work by your dog. These evaluations are more towards the German system. If you are searching for a venue to extend your training this may be another place for you to test.

The more training and testing you do, the more creditable you become. 

If you are doing foot work for your next dog, don't limit yourself within the State. Not saying that Michigan breeders aren't good just don't limit yourself.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

birdhuntingbtch said:


> I guess I understand, I'm still a little confused however. So are you saying if something were to happen to one of your guys you would lean more towards the DK's? *Yes, as the DK's are evaluated on fur, tracking ability and dispatching game.*
> 
> What is it that you have heard/seen in the GSP's that has changed your mind about getting another one?* Nothing in particular; other than there being limited odds of me finding a GSP exposed to the venues im interested in, that being fur, tracking, dispatching game. With the GSP most litters would have me relying on the genetic platform for these tasks with little evaluation of parent dogs.*
> 
> ...





birdhuntingbtch said:


> *I have run NAVHDA NA testing and gone to observe several UT and UTP tests. I have opted to skip the UTP and am training for the UT. I intend to run him in UT this summer with my Brittany. For my own sanity among other things I had to wait a year longer than I wanted to get both dogs to similar levels prior to signing up for the UT.*
> 
> As for VHDF the top evaluation; the field is run in a brace and has more water work involved. The VHDF venue offers the judges a scoring system for exceptional work by your dog. These evaluations are more towards the German system. If you are searching for a venue to extend your training this may be another place for you to test. *I did look into the club and intend to check it out in more depth.*
> 
> ...


I am really proud of my Kilian the GSP. Though i can not test him in the DK club I still intend to train to the standards and use him as the Germans who created his forefathers intended. I have no intention of replacing him. His drive, intensity and insane determination have me wanting to kill him at times.....but all those traits are what I love about him so much. I suppose that sounds odd but i imagine some prob know what i mean.

Here are some pictures of my buddy Kilian I call "Sir Stinky" Take one guess why? ahahahah




























*@ 10 Weeks *









*8 weeks the day he became "Kilian". Pick of the litter....only rascal to escape the whelping box the breeder told me with a sinister chuckle:evilsmile* Now i know what he was getting at.









Bob


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Bob the DK testing is not that high on fur any more. 
When looking for fur in the lines you must still do your homework just buying a DK does not mean he is going to do everything you think. 
Mine do track rabbit and take out what ever they need to and point well but a major kennel 10 miles from me there's don't do well on the track but kick mines butt in water so you must still do home work.
Look in Kentucky, Illinois and out west and you will find some great dogs
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

birdhuntingbtch said:


> Your first post was because you were looking for a different venue for your dog, other then NAVHDA. You were disapointed because you couldn't run in the German testing offered to the DK & DD. Most of my friends own GSP's I don't, but I don't compair my dogs to them. I can test in NAVHDA along side of them but I know in different phases, my dogs may do better then theirs while other in other area's theirs will do better then mine.
> 
> I feel I need to ask you a few questions are you serious about this conversation or just feel a need to poke the bear?
> There are trade off's in every breed, if you were to own a true German bred dog and want to hunt it like the do in Europe you may find it difficult to say the least.
> ...


 I quess I really never understand what a person would want a dog that fits the above discription for.At least in the US anyway. Why go through the trouble of teaching a dog things that you or the dog will never apply. 
I can see where a person might have the need or desire to have a dog sit in a boat or blind and do water work but beyond that I quess I don't get it.
My thinking has always been a pointing dog that chases or shows interest in fur is just interupting the hunt.I want mine focused on game birds and only that. Anything else and it is gonna get corrected.If I wanted or needed a dog to persue fur I would get a breed of dog that is better suited for that game and enviorment.

I always laugh when I see people call these DK or DD's a different breed.LOL They are GSP's with a different registry trained for a different format.


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

Bob,

About 8 years ago I met Blaine Carter while he was giving a training seminar, he owns a GSP Kennel in Maine. His comment was the ideas for my dogs sounded great now I needed to get off my butt and get involved and do it. He made it clear I was willing to talk the talk, but not walk the walk. We had run dogs in a NA test but I wasn't really committed to the work that needed to happen to make my talk a reality.

Training is a pain in the butt, it's hard work and you have to stick to a plan. You have to make a 100% commitment to training and having your dogs evaluated. It sounds like your on a plan, but just haven't followed through yet. From what you have said, (IMO) VHDF would be better for you, because you can expand on the blood tracking with their tests and the ability to score for exceptional performance. But do it, no more next year or I'll wait, don't wait for them to catch up to each other.

I've always wanted to run one of my dogs (my husband usually does) kept making excuesses as to why not. This year due to unforseen events I ended up running 3. I learned a lot, and I'm still alive, yes the dogs would have done better with him but, they did fine for me. TAKE THE JUMP.......


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

crosswind said:


> I quess I really never understand what a person would want a dog that fits the above discription for.At least in the US anyway. Why go through the trouble of teaching a dog things that you or the dog will never apply.
> I can see where a person might have the need or desire to have a dog sit in a boat or blind and do water work but beyond that I quess I don't get it.
> My thinking has always been a pointing dog that chases or shows interest in fur is just interupting the hunt.I want mine focused on game birds and only that. Anything else and it is gonna get corrected.If I wanted or needed a dog to persue fur I would get a breed of dog that is better suited for that game and enviorment.
> 
> I always laugh when I see people call these DK or DD's a different breed.LOL They are GSP's with a different registry trained for a different format.


100% agree with you!!!


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

crosswind said:


> I quess I really never understand what a person would want a dog that fits the above discription for.At least in the US anyway. Why go through the trouble of teaching a dog things that you or the dog will never apply.
> I can see where a person might have the need or desire to have a dog sit in a boat or blind and do water work but beyond that I quess I don't get it.
> My thinking has always been a pointing dog that chases or shows interest in fur is just interupting the hunt.I want mine focused on game birds and only that. Anything else and it is gonna get corrected.If I wanted or needed a dog to persue fur I would get a breed of dog that is better suited for that game and enviorment.
> 
> I always laugh when I see people call these DK or DD's a different breed.LOL They are GSP's with a different registry trained for a different format.




I do hear what you are saying and I do respect your decision to work the GSP toward your desired game...heck that is what American's have done with the dog for 60 years. I am as green as a clover leaf when it comes to dogs compared to your experience. I however appreciate the versatility that was instilled into the breed and is being continued in clubs like the DK club. I just don't have the sanity to feed, train and care for 4 different dogs.

As a hunter enjoy filling my freezer with fur (well not fur but the meat under that fur :corkysm55), including blood tracking wounded game to add to my freezer. If "I" were truly only interested in birds i would prob own a EP.
Bob


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

birdhuntingbtch said:


> Bob,
> 
> About 8 years ago I met Blaine Carter while he was giving a training seminar, he owns a GSP Kennel in Maine. His comment was the ideas for my dogs sounded great now I needed to get off my butt and get involved and do it. He made it clear I was willing to talk the talk, but not walk the walk. We had run dogs in a NA test but I wasn't really committed to the work that needed to happen to make my talk a reality.





birdhuntingbtch said:


> Training is a pain in the butt, it's hard work and you have to stick to a plan. You have to make a 100% commitment to training and having your dogs evaluated. It sounds like your on a plan, but just haven't followed through yet. From what you have said, (IMO) VHDF would be better for you, because you can expand on the blood tracking with their tests and the ability to score for exceptional performance. But do it, no more next year or I'll wait, don't wait for them to catch up to each other.
> 
> I've always wanted to run one of my dogs (my husband usually does) kept making excuesses as to why not. This year due to unforseen events I ended up running 3. I learned a lot, and I'm still alive, yes the dogs would have done better with him but, they did fine for me. TAKE THE JUMP.......


 

I don't really find training a pain in the butt....i actually enjoy doing it and if it were not for having to work a full time job i would love to train my guys full time as a job. 

I have trained this summer and have tested, just not with NAVHDA. Oddly i do most of my more intense training in the winter as it just works better for me as things slow down....but do to focus on water work this year I intend to clean up a few other things this winter and do our main leg work come spring. 

Oddly your post brings me full circle back to one of the primary reasons of getting this tread going. I do intend to test with NAVHDA.....while web surving just had hoped to find a venue more like the DK system; and it seems you guys have pointed me to a few that i am going to check out.

Its all good, this tread has been real informative for me. 

*As for a comparison I see it like this;*
People steer perspective puppy buyers of any breed to a reputable breeder as it increases the "odds" that the dog will perform as advertised....though it does not guarantee anything.

Leaning toward a DK breeder over a GSP breeder would increase my "odds" of obtaining a dog to meet my versatile wants........though it still is not a guarantee. Sure a GSP "may" meet those needs but if one were to gamble the odds would be in the favor of the DK for versatility.

Bob


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Scott and or any of the other top breeders.
First I have to agree with you Scott having the dogs go after everything in the woods is a plan in the as* but my question is
When you breed out the tracking of fur how does the pups do on cripple birds. And when I say puppy anything before force fetching so natural ability. 
Or one not have anything to do with the other
Just asking 
Nick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Nick
How do your DK's handle fur in the woods? I guess im unsure of how it is a hassle unless its just a distraction form only hunting birds. 

My GSP does not actively "hunt" squirrels or other fuzzy critters but will retrieve wounded or kills. He points rabbits until the "hop"..or flush, ahahah whatever you call it when a bunny takes off; he then works just like a beagle, hot pursuit with the vocals and all. He will come off the chase on command. No desire to chase deer, never really had the desire to go after them; but when he did once we had a "understanding" early on.

My Brittany....year 1 he was a chipmunk hunting fool!


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

N M Mechanical said:


> Scott and or any of the other top breeders.
> First I have to agree with you Scott having the dogs go after everything in the woods is a plan in the as* but my question is
> When you breed out the tracking of fur how does the pups do on cripple birds. And when I say puppy anything before force fetching so natural ability.
> Or one not have anything to do with the other
> ...


IMO, all hunting dogs started out the same, for use with birds as the need for the more versatile dog came to be, the more outcrossing took place, to breed in the fur.

My dogs are pretty much the same as they were in the 1500, with the exception of a couple of approved outcrosses to the Pointer.

Most of my dogs show little to no interest in fur or ducks. But on their own nautral ability (prior to force fetch) their desire is high to hunt, point, track, wild birds or training birds - cripple or dead. Some of them use the air more and some use the ground but they all get the job done.

I can teach them to track duck and fur but it is not a natural response. As long as the dog is bred to hunt, they should be able to track cripples. If you are asking if you can breed out the fur in a DD or DK I guess what man has put in, they can always carefully take out.


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

crosswind said:


> I quess I really never understand what a person would want a dog that fits the above discription for.At least in the US anyway. Why go through the trouble of teaching a dog things that you or the dog will never apply.
> I can see where a person might have the need or desire to have a dog sit in a boat or blind and do water work but beyond that I quess I don't get it.
> My thinking has always been a pointing dog that chases or shows interest in fur is just interupting the hunt.I want mine focused on game birds and only that. Anything else and it is gonna get corrected.If I wanted or needed a dog to persue fur I would get a breed of dog that is better suited for that game and enviorment.
> 
> I always laugh when I see people call these DK or DD's a different breed.LOL They are GSP's with a different registry trained for a different format.


LOL I can't understand why someone wouldn't want a versatile dog. By the way, DKs are pure breeds, I believe. DDs however, are not.

Good luck in the late season.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> Scott and or any of the other top breeders.
> First I have to agree with you Scott having the dogs go after everything in the woods is a plan in the as* but my question is
> When you breed out the tracking of fur how does the pups do on cripple birds. And when I say puppy anything before force fetching so natural ability.
> Or one not have anything to do with the other
> ...


 Nick it really isn't bred out of them at all. It is more about training it out of them. you make the corrections when the opportunities arise and you will find that after while they will totally ignore the fur.
I still like to see my dogs track but it better be a bird he is tracking.
Besides shorthairs I have owned lots of pointers and setters over the years also. I have seen lots of birds that get tracked and pointed where the pointers and setters seem to miss them.Not always the case but not at all uncommon that I see that.


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

Mickey Finn said:


> LOL I can't understand why someone wouldn't want a versatile dog. By the way, DKs are pure breeds, I believe. DDs however, are not.
> 
> Good luck in the late season.


*Quote: "It must be understood that the versatile dog was not developed to replace or improve upon any other hunting breed. Rather, it was developed to provide the on-foot hunter who, for one reason or another, chooses not to maintain a kennel of specialists, with a dog that will serve as a dependable hunting companion in the pursuit of a variety of game in a variety of enviornments." from the NAVHDA AIMS Book*

I own 5 dogs which are considered "Versatile" dogs; they will retrieve anything I send them on (duck, squirrel, rabbits etc) and go where ever I send them (water or land), they will track crippled birds and running pheasants. 

I train on the versatile standards because it pushes my dogs to be the best they can be. It's nice to know that if you drop a bird on the other side of a flood creek in late March during a NSTRA event, they will go, get it and bring it back to hand. _*BUT, I do not consider them "versatile", they are upland bird dogs. *_

Over the years I have focused my efforts in being versatile in having good friends that have Griffons, GSP's, Begals and other hounds. Some are duck/geese hunters first, others rabbits first, I put my focus on field work. Most of us train side by side, each of us knows are strengths and short comings. When I get to the point where I can have 10 dogs, one will be a Catahoula he will be my fur hound.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

For those of you who prefer your dog to not locate and work fur..........is it due to no desire to hunt/harvest fur?

Though i test my dogs the number one purpose is "meat". And I enjoy rabbit just as much as grouse. And my dogs seem to enjoy them just as much too.


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Rugergundog said:


> For those of you who prefer your dog to not locate and work fur..........is it due to no desire to hunt/harvest fur?
> 
> Though i test my dogs the number one purpose is "meat". And I enjoy rabbit just as much as grouse. And my dogs seem to enjoy them just as much too.


With all the coyotes around your house harassing your hounds why not turn the tables on them? If your dogs will listen, do a little tolling and calling on them. It normally works better during breeding season, but can bring the yotes in year round. You don't want the dogs to fight the coyotes just lure them back to gunning range. I would think this would add the big V infront of your dogs resume. I think coyotes are the ultimate furry critter a dog can work in this state.

Griff


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

I would totally love to do that sort of coyote hunting with my dog....but i would not have a clue on how to go about it. Ill have to do some reading and maybe networking.

And yes the coyotes are abundant out back and the opportunity abundant.


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

I have been very proud of my dogs when we have been in woods and one of them stops at a tree and looks up. If I am with a hunter who is uneducated about the virtues of a versatile dog and they start to move on because the dog has treed a squirrel, I make sure one of us shoots the squirrel. The question is always asked about shooting squirrels over "Bird dogs." I enjoy explaining, I have versatile dogs and the fur does not interfere with feathers. After a couple points on grouse or woodcock, they get they understand and love hunting with our dogs. I have never found it to be a pain. It just helps enhance the hunting experience.

Our dogs have also blood tracked deer with no ill effects. However, I have no problem whith those who do not want their dogs on anyting but birds. To each their own.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Blood tracking deer is a HUGE asset for me. I am so darn terrible at it.....more like pathetic at it. I just don't have the patience to go slow enough to look for little speckles of blood. I have been utilizing my friend and his DD to this point and it is awesome to see her work a spot only i seen the deer go hours and hours earlier.
I get a real bad gut feelings if i don't find a wounded deer...so if my versatile dog can help with that.....GREAT! We will resume our blood work come Jan 1 after the close of bird season.


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

Rugergundog said:


> Blood tracking deer is a HUGE asset for me. I am so darn terrible at it.....more like pathetic at it. I just don't have the patience to go slow enough to look for little speckles of blood. I have been utilizing my friend and his DD to this point and it is awesome to see her work a spot only i seen the deer go hours and hours earlier.
> I get a real bad gut feelings if i don't find a wounded deer...so if my versatile dog can help with that.....GREAT! We will resume our blood work come Jan 1 after the close of bird season.


Better to wait for spring to do your blood work.

ATB


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Yea i understand the majority of the work is best to do in spring outside but i have access to a very large indoor facility that i can resume the foundations of the tracking inside.


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

Rugergundog said:


> Yea i understand the majority of the work is best to do in spring outside but i have access to a very large indoor facility that i can resume the foundations of the tracking inside.


I was thinking of the scenting conditions. I don't know what they would be like indoors. I guess if the humidity is high enough. It could be a good way to go.

ATB


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

well it won't be as good as outside....but it sure beats doing nothing.


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

Rugergundog said:


> well it won't be as good as outside....but it sure beats doing nothing.


I could use a couple days of doing nothing.

ATB


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Real nice factual based response from another forum i posted the same topic.

_*I consider the Deutsch Kurzhaar of today different that the DK base genetics of 100years ago. and I have 2 arguments for this.
the weak one is 100years ago the DK group didn't have a required testing system for hunting performance on all stock, therefore the DK of today has had a lot of genetic filtering from the 100year ago base.

my stronger argument for the Deutsch Kurzhaar gene pool being different today from 100yrs ago is simply the genetic additions, prior to the late 1950's the liver Kurzhaar (the DK) and the black Kurzhaar (Prussian Kurzhaar PK) were totally separate breeds, and many GSP lines imported in the 30's, 40's, and 50's (foundation of many popular FT lines) simply had no Prussian Kurzhaar (black DK/PK) and when the PK and DK became the same breed crossing wasn't popular for a number of years. 
Thus today what we can the Deutsch Kurzhaar gene pool is different that what was called 100yrs ago the Deutsch Kurzhaar gene pool

The Prussian Kurzhaar was first introduced to the DD in 1934, but out-crossing to it was limited compared to the Deutsch Kurzhaar until the 2 German Kurzhaars (shorthairs) became 1 Kurtzhaar breed.*
_


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## dquindt (Jul 27, 2006)

Rugergundog said:


> Real nice factual based response from another forum i posted the same topic.
> 
> _*I consider the Deutsch Kurzhaar of today different that the DK base genetics of 100years ago. and I have 2 arguments for this........*
> _


Fact, huh? It seems like anything written on the web that supports your beliefs is somehow a "fact".

So let's talk about "facts". The site you lifted that quote from is a copyright protected. Using someone's quotes without giving them credit is impolite; stealing content from a copyright protected site, without neither the author or owner's permission is just plan wrong. That's fact #1.

Which leads me to fact #2. The quote you posted as a "fact" was written by who? Do you know this person's actual name, or just an internet handle? What is his source material? You don't know, do you? So other than the comment agrees with you, you have no basis for which to call the comment a "fact", do you? How do you know that he isn't just making things up? What about the other poster who has since replied, disagreeing with some of the claims made in the original post, which you have deemed as "facts"? Whose "facts" are right? The "fact" is you don't know, do you?

Here's a pedigree from a DK; a very popular DK sire as a matter of fact. One that is approved for breeding; passed the KS test as well. Go down to the bottom of his dam's side. See any names that sound familiar? 

http://www.vomriverwoods.com/PDFs/Chance_vom_Riverwoods.pdf

See, here's the problem. When the DK folks got started here in the US, the most influential club member needed to get some pups on the ground. So, the DKV allowed him to breed one of his DKs to a couple of full-blooded American GSPs, from field trial lines no less, and register the offspring as DKs. The DKV (the DK club in Germany) had no problem with it; neither did the FCI. 

So, if the DK and the GSP are two different breeds, are you saying the DKV allowed cross-breeding to take place? Are you saying that this dog, and all of his offspring are not "pure" DKs? :yikes:

If you are interested in the DK tests, or get your jollies by hunting like the Germans do, by all means get yourself a DK. I know a number of folks who get their kicks by hunting their DKs using German guns, giving commands in German and turning their dogs loose on any fur available when birds are scarce. I have no problem with that at all; they breed some very nice dogs with that particular style of hunting in mind.

But don't start grabbing stuff off of the internet for which you have no idea of its accuracy nor its author and stuffing it in our faces as "fact" just because it happens to agree with your pie-in-the-sky theories. 

And don't even think about stealing from my post and posting it on Versatiledogs or elsewhere. You've deemed these things as facts; now start defending them.

FWIW,
Dave

Dave Quindt
Plainfield, IL


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

dquindt said:


> Fact, huh? It seems like anything written on the web that supports your beliefs is somehow a "fact".
> 
> So let's talk about "facts". The site you lifted that quote from is a copyright protected. Using someone's quotes without giving them credit is impolite; stealing content from a copyright protected site, without neither the author or owner's permission is just plan wrong. That's fact #1.
> 
> ...


Rough night?

Rugergundog is trying to have a discussion. What he posted, while clearly an opinion. Appears to fall under "fair use." This is an exception to copyright claims. 

Unlike many, he desires to use his versatile dog as it was intended. There by doing a service to the breed. Others, choose to serve themselves. Ultimately doing a disservice to the breed. This is the only fact I've seen. 

Judging by the tempo of your post. Your a muckity muck in the dog show world. Not much cause for arrogance. I think.

ATB


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## dquindt (Jul 27, 2006)

> Rough night?


Nope, not at all.



> Rugergundog is trying to have a discussion.


That's fine, but shopping around for the answer someone is looking for, then posting it on another board as a "factual based response" with no idea how factual it is, or who even wrote it, is rather self-serving.



> Unlike many, he desires to use his versatile dog as it was intended.


So one has to ponder whether or not the DK and the GSP are separate breeds in order to use his dog as a versatile dog?


> as it was intended


Here we go again.....


> Judging by the tempo of your post. Your a muckity muck in the dog show world.


Funniest thing I've read in a while; thank you for that. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Rugerdog, I have no problem if you're interested in DKs and the German testing systems. But this stuff has been beaten to death over and over; dig around in the archives over at Versatiledogs, or even better yet Gundogforum and you'll find dozens of threads about this. 

But throwing out bizarre theoretical questions (i.e. comparing 100 DKs to 100 GSPs, all trained and tested to the DK standards) when you know it's never been done just asks for opinions to be floated as facts and just stirs the pot.

JMO,
Dave


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