# Bait ban in the future?



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Due to CWD, it looks like the NRC is going to put baiting on the table for the upcoming deer regulations cycle. This will be an interesting conversation this time around. When we had the other bait ban, the expiration was contingent on no other CWD deer showing up for a year or two. With the original CWD deer, we did go a while with no other deer found. But as we know with CWD now, they are finding more positive deer. The situation now isn't a "one off".

It will be interesting this time around, because in this case, the true interest at hand isn't hunter social rules. Hunters can easily live with a bait ban. A bunch of great whitetail states don't allow baiting and they have great deer hunting. It doesn't matter to success rates if hunters can bait or not. Numerous research papers have shown that hunters who don't use bait have roughly the same success rates are those hunters who do bait. Now, those who bait may see more deer, but as far as filling a freezer, the kill rates are almost the same, with baiters having a bit higher success, however it's a small difference.

But this time around, the real issue isn't what hunters want or don't want. The real issue is farmer economics and retail sales. Baiting is big money. Will the NRC have the guts to go up against big Ag and all the retail stores that sell bait?

If they do, what's the best course of action? Economically, it's going to be tough to ban baiting "immediately", with "immediately" meaning the upcoming planting season for farmers and the upcoming sales year for retailers, as many orders for many "bait" products have been placed. The practical way to do a ban might be to announce a bait ban for 2018, so farmers and retail sellers can adjust accordingly.


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Deer baiting in crosshairs as wasting disease remedy

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ng-targeted-chronic-wasting-disease/94500986/

This year’s firearm deer hunting season has triggered a fresh debate in Michigan over the wisdom of allowing hunters to buy and use bait to attract deer.

The discovery this summer of another Michigan deer infected with chronic wasting disease, a fatal neurological disorder, has some state and wildlife experts concerned the widespread use of bait will bring too many deer into close quarters and accelerate the spread of the disease. Adding to that anxiety is word that yet another deer tested positive for the disease only miles from the western border of the Upper Peninsula in Wisconsin.

On the other side of this issue are many hunters — more than half-million are expected to buy licenses for this year’s firearms season — who will descend on Michigan’s woodlands and farmlands with dreams of bagging a trophy white-tailed deer (Another 100,000 or so will hunt in the archery or muzzleloader season). So too, many stores, gas stations and farmers across Michigan draw income from the deer bait industry.

James DeDecker, an agricultural educator for Michigan State University Extension in Presque Isle County, said it is difficult to estimate how much impact the growing and selling of deer bait has had on the state’s economy, but it’s significant.

Many farmers I know have turned to growing crops like sugar beets and corn for deer feed. It’s a great market for what we call Grade B produce,” DeDecker said. “Plus, farmers have found they can get one price selling corn in bulk to elevators, but if they bag it up and sell it as deer feed, they can make a lot more per bushel.

“There are a lot of economic challenges facing farmers, especially small farms. They have to move to where the market is, and the deer feed market is lucrative. When hunters are basically coming to you, and all you have to do is bag it up and put it on the side of the road, it makes things much more cost effective.”

*Choosing sides*

The debate over baiting can be heated, as the state Department of Natural Resources discovered when it banned the practice statewide after the first Michigan case of chronic wasting disease was confirmed in 2008.

Hunting groups disagreed with the ban, arguing the use of bait increases the likelihood of a successful hunt. Others simply ignored the edict.

Under intense pressure, the Natural Resources Commission, which sets policy for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, lifted the ban for much of the state in 2011, noting no other infected deer had been found to that point.

The same can’t be said today.

The infected deer discovered this summer is the eighth identified case in Michigan (a possible ninth case was announced Wednesday). State wildlife officials have said, however, they remain cautiously optimistic the disease is under control, at least for the time being. The diagnosed cases have been confined to a core area in the south central Lower Peninsula.

Moreover, DNA testing showed the deer found this summer was related to four earlier identified infected deer, according to Chad Stewart, a deer and elk specialist at the DNR. “So far, all eight have been related to each other somehow; most, very closely.”

Up to this point, most of DNR’s focus has been on Ionia, Clinton, Shiawassee, Ingham and Eaton counties, which are all in the designated CWD Management Zone. Working with the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Wildlife Services, the DNR has used sharp shooters to reduce deer numbers in townships where the infected deer have been found. The latest positive deer was found in Ingham County’s Meridian Township.

The agency has also issued more hunting licenses and mandated that successful hunters in the core area submit deer for testing at check-in stations before processing.

Stewart said he believes it has been a successful strategy thus far. “We think we’re doing about as good as you can do dealing with this threat,” he said.

*Threat from the West*

But the agency’s confidence was tested by a recent report near another region of the
state.

Last month, Wisconsin officials confirmed a deer at a fenced hunting preserve tested positive for chronic wasting disease in Oconto County, which is very close to the Upper Peninsula. The fear is that if the disease breaches the border, it would have a much greater impact in the U.P., where the deer herd isn’t very large and is physically vulnerable to harsh winters.

“The recent CWD-infected deer was only about 35 miles from the Wisconsin-Michigan border as the crow flies,” said John Pepin, a DNR deputy public information officer who is based in the U.P. “While the deer was inside an enclosed property, there is always a possibility that CWD could have been transmitted to free-ranging deer.”

As a result, the DNR is now scrambling to come up with a plan to combat this second front in the potential spread of this disease.

The agency recently formed the Upper Peninsula CWD Task Force made up of DNR officials and representatives from a number of deer hunting groups, including U.P. Whitetails, Inc., the Straits Area Sportsmen’s Club, Wildlife Unlimited of Iron County and Michigan United Conservation Clubs — to name a few.

According to Pepin, one of the keys will be public education and a likely expansion of the “Keep the U.P. CWD Free” campaign that started in 2015. It includes billboards and other programs to make sure hunters know about the threat and how they can help. “We’re trying to educate the public, especially hunters who bring dead deer back home from other states, particularly from Wisconsin,” Pepin said.

Another issue the task force will likely be looking at is the use of bait or supplemental feeding. The use of deer bait — typically apples, carrots, corn and sugar beets — to attract deer has already been banned in the CWD Core Area.

If allowed to spread, the disease could have a devastating effect on the state’s deer herd, and on a deer hunting industry that, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, generates more than $2.3 billion in annual economic activity in Michigan as hunters drop money on gear, gas, restaurants and lodging. For many towns in rural areas of the state, in particular, hunters provide a huge boost to the local economy.

“Once CWD is in your county, the odds of you getting rid of it are pretty tough,” Stewart said. “You can’t stop deer from being deer. When you have constant bait on the ground, the deer are going to be attracted to the area. And they will be licking, defecating and urinating in that area. That’s how CWD is spread. And the more animals you’re drawing to that site, the greater the odds of spreading it.”

*A thriving economy*

DeDecker of MSU Extension said he works with many farmers in the northeastern Lower Peninsula, where baiting has remained banned for more than a decade because of an outbreak of bovine tuberculosis, a chronic bacterial disease, which, before chronic wasting disease turned up, was the biggest threat to the Michigan’s deer herd.

Despite a deer baiting ban in Alpena, Alcona, Montmorency and Oscoda counties, DeDecker said farmers still grow the crops for deer bait — and stores still sell it.


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Part 2...

“The farmers are aware of the ban, and so are the store owners. But the bait isn’t illegal until it’s in the woods,” he said. “They don’t want to lose the revenue. Despite the ban, you can find bait for sale everywhere.”

Not far from DeDecker’s office, The Dry Dock in Rogers City has been selling deer bait — mostly carrots and sugar beets — for as many years as Ted and Jen Urban have owned the store.

The store sells bait by the bag and by the scoop — it has huge piles out back that employees can load into pick-up trucks and trailers. Ted Urban estimates his store sold more bait during the ban than they do now that baiting is again allowed in Presque Isle County.

“At one point, selling deer bait probably brought in 40 percent of our revenue. We would go through seven 42-ton semi loads during a typical hunting season,” said Urban, a lifelong hunter. “This year, we’ll probably only go through two semi loads. I’m not sure if it’s because of all the competition, or there just isn’t that much interest in deer hunting anymore. But there is definitely way more competition nowadays.”

*Is bait sporting?*

Not all hunters are supportive of baiting, however.

Jon Petzold is president of the Western Wayne County Conservation Association, a 1,000-member shooting club in Plymouth Township. He said baiting is a divisive issue even among hunters. He remembers hunting years ago at some of the hunt clubs near Alpena where members would put out huge piles of bait to attract deer, a practice that he said left a bad taste in his mouth.

“I’m not a real fan of the practice,” said Petzold, a 69-year-old resident of South Lyon. “Over the years, I think it’s gotten to be pretty stupid. Putting out truckloads of bait, I think, is a disservice to the animals. As hunters we like to talk about fair chase. A deer’s stomach is one of the main factors in its behavior. You can’t put out huge piles of bait and not expect them to come in from miles. They don’t have the chance that hunters like to talk about.”

Putting out huge bait piles is no longer legal in Michigan. The DNR has strict guidelines. Where baiting is legal, hunters are only supposed to put out two gallons of bait spread out over a 10-foot by 10-foot area. Petzold said if hunters abided by those rules, he wouldn’t have as much of a problem. But, as someone who has hunting property near Escanaba in the U.P. — not far from the Wisconsin border — he said he is concerned about the threat from chronic wasting disease and what it could mean for the deer herd.

Whether or not the DNR implements a ban on baiting in the U.P. remains to be seen, but there too there is some concern about the practice, according to Stewart. Because of the long, harsh winters in the U.P., large numbers of deer migrate from the northern part of the peninsula to the south where snowfall totals aren’t as great. They congregate in what biologists call “deer yards.” The fear is that baiting or supplemental feeding in these areas will cause deer to congregate even more. If chronic wasting disease finds its way into these deer yards, the disease could spread quickly.

“Supplemental feeding is a big part of the culture up in the U.P. People like to put out a little extra food to help get the deer through the winter. We understand that,” Stewart said. “From a management point of view, it makes sense to have a baiting and feeding ban. But it is a complex issue with lots of considerations.”

Next year, the state is scheduled to take a comprehensive look at the management of the deer herd and hunting guidelines for the first time in three years, according to John Matonich, chairman of the Natural Resources Commission.

*Baiting will definitely be on the table. In “fact, everything will be up for review,” said Matonich, who lives near Lake Gogebic in the U.P. “We’re going to look at bag limits, season dates, and the CWD issue.”*

Matonich said the NRC will rely heavily on the Upper Peninsula task force, but will also listen to anyone affected by deer hunting and management.

“The one thing I learned very early on with the commission is how little I knew about all the different aspects of the outdoors — and I had been a hunter my whole life, said Matonich, an NRC member since 2010. “There are so many different groups who are stakeholders in what we do. We will bring in people from all over the state to get as many different perspectives as possible. There are lots of divisions out there. Our job will be to balance everything out as best we can. At the same time, we are very concerned about CWD.”

*Steps to deter disease spread*

Chronic wasting disease targets not only deer but other members of the Cervidae family, including elk and moose. Once infected, the disease creates small lesions in the brain and is always fatal.

While most wildlife diseases are caused by bacteria or a virus, chronic wasting disease is spread through mutated proteins called prions. Deer pick them up through direct animal-to-animal interaction or contact with feces and other bodily fluids. Once infected, the animal will become emaciated, can exhibit odd behavior and lose its fear of humans.

In the meantime there are a few things deer hunters can do to help prevent the spread of the disease.

Hunters who bag a deer in the core CWD Management Zone are required to have their deer tested for the disease at one of the five DNR check stations in the area. The stations will be open daily throughout the hunting season. Hunters should also be on the lookout for animals demonstrating odd behavior associated with chronic wasting disease, and report them to DNR.

Those hunting out of state should remember it is illegal to bring deer carcasses from states where the disease has been found back to Michigan. That’s especially true of deer from Wisconsin, where the disease is rampant. The DNR said it will be testing
deer in the counties closest to the Wisconsin border, and U.P. hunters are encouraged to submit their deer for testing.

Lastly, hunters should not use bait in the counties where it is banned (Alpena, Alcona, Montmorency, Oscoda, Ingham, Clinton, Shiawassee, Eaton and Ionia). Hunters who use bait where it is legal should follow the guidelines established by the DNR.

For more information about CWD’s impact on Michigan, visit www.michigan.gov/cwd.


----------



## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

I for one hope they once and for all put a permanent ban on baiting.


----------



## kingfishcam (Jul 16, 2002)

About time.


----------



## fishnpbr (Dec 2, 2007)

They can ban it but that won't stop a large number of hunters from doing it unless they get serious about enforcement. Even then it won't stop many. I hunt the TB zone (487) and baiting has been banned in that area for a long time. There is no agriculture anywhere near where I hunt and every deer we have killed since the ban the stomachs are full of corn, sugar beets, carrots etc....


----------



## reel habits (Mar 3, 2010)

Won't banning bait force all the deer into your food plots and create a similar result? Anything that concentrates deer would seem to be a bad thing, wouldn't it? Maybe the answer is somewhere else.


----------



## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

If they were to ban baiting and feeding in the U.P. then deer numbers there would plummet, especially in the northern half of the peninsula. All the fall baiting and winter feeding is the main reason that there are huntable deer populations in much of the U.P. now. Implementing a bating/feeding ban would be like killing all the deer to save them, which makes no sense at all. Also, a baiting ban there, if enforced strictly, where likely 90% of hunters use bait now, would cause a huge drop in deer hunter numbers there with a huge economic impact that would devastate a lot of businesses there. It would also cause hunting land prices to drop even further casing more economic harm. Property tax income would also drop further burdening local communities. A baiting/feeding ban in the U.P. would be a huge disaster and would have zero impact on CWD in the region. Baiting will not bring CWD to MI and when it does get to the U.P. baiting and feeding would have little impact then either. Other states and MI have banned baiting/feeding in CWD areas and the disease is still there and spreading despite all efforts to the contrary. The only hope to stop or at least slow down CWD is through scientific research to develop a cure or other measures to halt the disease. The real outrage though is that only a tiny percentage of the DNR's budget is used for research on CWD. I wonder if the NRC/DNR will be addressing that deplorable situation or will they just keep on with the status quo and watch our deer herd slowly sink causing the demise of the deer hunting culture in our state. I have little faith that they will do the right thing.


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

There is a way to bait, that will not concentrate deer. IF I were to start baiting this is how I would do it. I would throw a single carrot. Then another about 50 feet away. Just scatter individual "baits" over a VERY wide area, no actual bait pile.


----------



## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

fishnpbr said:


> They can ban it but that won't stop a large number of hunters from doing it unless they get serious about enforcement. Even then it won't stop many. I hunt the TB zone (487) and baiting has been banned in that area for a long time. There is no agriculture anywhere near where I hunt and every deer we have killed since the ban the stomachs are full of corn, sugar beets, carrots etc....


Us too. You can buy it every single gas station in 487. A ban won't stop it from happening.


----------



## Martian (Apr 28, 2011)

a couple years back with bait banned that year, I seen just as many deer. I chose stand sites more wisely. I also have a friend who refuses to bait, he feels deer coming to bait always come in cautious, or just at night.. When I do bait now, ( I only have 5 acres to hunt on), I only use a coffee can full of corn and just throw it.


----------



## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

I agree with the posters above. Banning bait will have little effect on the agricultural community as it will still be legal to sell deer bait. 
<----<<<


----------



## walleyerick (Sep 30, 2004)

As long as they can sell it, people will continue to do it. There is not enough law enforcement to patrol it either. It costs a lot of money to do plane surveillances as well. If they do ban it, our group will continue to plant more clusters of apple trees, and expand our food plots and probably switch to more planted corn, soy beans and sugar beets.
The other thing to consider is that it will have a huge financial impact on the economy, less people will hunt, although I cannot state a specific percentage drop. I can almost guarantee it, especially for state land and bow hunter's in general. Less hunter's translates into less dollars spent on licenses, food, gas, lodging, bait, beer, hunting clothes, ect...
Whether you like baiting or not, it is highly effective way to control the herd, if it wasn't, people wouldn't do it. 
Also, Im curious, how many states and province's still allow baiting even though they have CWD present? I know Saskatchewan does and I believe, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Texas and Wisconsin still allow feeding to some degree. Please correct me if Im wrong though.


----------



## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Joe Archer said:


> I agree with the posters above. Banning bait will have little effect on the agricultural community as it will still be legal to sell deer bait.
> <----<<<


In other words, ban baiting all they want and it will still happen. As long as they are able to sell it, people will buy it and use it. It is already happening across the TB zone. When baiting is banned statewide it will still happen across the entire state. So what's the use?


----------



## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

walleyerick said:


> As long as they can sell it, people will continue to do it. There is not enough law enforcement to patrol it either. It costs a lot of money to do plane surveillances as well. If they do ban it, our group will continue to plant more clusters of apple trees, and expand our food plots and probably switch to more planted corn, soy beans and sugar beets.
> The other thing to consider is that it will have a huge financial impact on the economy, less people will hunt, although I cannot state a specific percentage drop. I can almost guarantee it, especially for state land and bow hunter's in general. Less hunter's translates into less dollars spent on licenses, food, gas, lodging, bait, beer, hunting clothes, ect...
> Whether you like baiting or not, it is highly effective way to control the herd, if it wasn't, people wouldn't do it.
> Also, Im curious, how many states and province's still allow baiting even though they have CWD present? I know Saskatchewan does and I believe, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Texas and Wisconsin still allow feeding to some degree. Please correct me if Im wrong though.


Even if baiting were banned people will still do it because that is the only way they know how to hunt. A friend of mine used to hunt near Gladwin on state land years ago. He would put his twin sons to work on carrying sugar beets into the swamp from dawn to dark on a weekend in October, before there was a 2 gallon limit. I told him he could utilize all that time spent carrying bait into the swamp into teaching those boys how to look for sign and travel routes and set up accordingly. He honestly had no idea what I was talking about.


----------



## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

skipper34 said:


> In other words, ban baiting all they want and it will still happen. As long as they are able to sell it, people will buy it and use it. It is already happening across the TB zone. When baiting is banned statewide it will still happen across the entire state. So what's the use?


When bait was banned statewide it was still sold everywhere.


----------



## NonTypicalCPA (Feb 16, 2007)

I don't care much about baiting. I'd rather see them throw the high fence operations under the bus.


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

walleyerick said:


> As long as they can sell it, people will continue to do it. There is not enough law enforcement to patrol it either. It costs a lot of money to do plane surveillances as well. If they do ban it, our group will continue to plant more clusters of apple trees, and expand our food plots and probably switch to more planted corn, soy beans and sugar beets.
> The other thing to consider is that it will have a huge financial impact on the economy, less people will hunt, although I cannot state a specific percentage drop. I can almost guarantee it, especially for state land and bow hunter's in general. Less hunter's translates into less dollars spent on licenses, food, gas, lodging, bait, beer, hunting clothes, ect...
> *Whether you like baiting or not, it is highly effective way to control the herd*, if it wasn't, people wouldn't do it.
> Also, Im curious, how many states and province's still allow baiting even though they have CWD present? I know Saskatchewan does and I believe, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Texas and Wisconsin still allow feeding to some degree. Please correct me if Im wrong though.


The research says otherwise. South Carolina did a ton of research before their ban. This is a must-read...
http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/pdf/baitinglaws.pdf

It turns out when bait is used, more bucks are killed than antlerless deer. With no bait, it's 50/50 bucks and does. In fact, they report that baiting may actually negatively impact harvest rates..

The other big aspect mentioned is that with bait, hunters believe that they can make any parcel into a good hunting tract. The SCDNR underlines the word any in the document.

The research goes onto say that baiting has made hunters less skilled and reverses the roles, as the deer hunts the hunter, with bait. They say it's just a matter of buying bait, dumping it and having a clear shot.

Anyways, it's a great read for anyone interested in the research.


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

In addition, Michigan DNR research showed that 44% were successful with bait and 52% were successful without bait.

In Wisconsin, 50% who used bait were successful and 54% were successful without bait.

Here's another link with a compilation of great info...
https://www.alabamawildlife.org/uploadedFiles/Deer Management Issues.pdf


----------



## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

If they are going to go after disease risk's, they better go after all of them.


----------



## canyard (Jan 10, 2010)

How is a ticket for baiting does anyone know?


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Lumberman said:


> Lol. According to your logic we might as well allow baiting no holds barred because every oak/apple/beach tree in the woods is not safe.
> 
> I don't know how you pulled it off but I'm so how pro-baiting now.


I just cited the DNR CWD Response Plan. Take it up with the scientists if you have a problem with them.


----------



## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

I


hunthunt said:


> If the DNR did their job it would be amazingly easy to bust people using bait.....follow the obvious walking trail in and mark it on your GPS.......come back later and write lots of hefty tickets.


 Wish they would do that now. Its not rocket science to figure out why all the deer trails suddenly showed up. I have never seen a legal bait sight. Every sight I have ever seen is at least 3-5 bags.


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

canyard said:


> How is a ticket for baiting does anyone know?


I bet it's $100-$200 bucks when all is said and done.


----------



## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

Ban bait and enroll all stateland into tsi and hingecutting programs. small foodplots may need to be illegal also due to deer density in a small area. Was cwd around when foodplots and bait were not common? Was it the big ag fields deer use to go to that kept cwd from beginning?


----------



## HUBBHUNTER (Aug 8, 2007)

cakebaker said:


> Ban bait and enroll all stateland into tsi and hingecutting programs. small foodplots may need to be illegal also due to deer density in a small area. Was cwd around when foodplots and bait were not common? Was it the big ag fields deer use to go to that kept cwd from beginning?


Can the size of private foodplots be controlled? Unlikely without banning them all together. Agree with the TSI and hinge cutting, that would go along way in increase deer numbers in the NLP and UP.

Salt and mineral blocks should be banned.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

cakebaker said:


> Ban bait and enroll all stateland into tsi and hingecutting programs. small foodplots may need to be illegal also due to deer density in a small area. Was cwd around when foodplots and bait were not common? Was it the big ag fields deer use to go to that kept cwd from beginning?



Again I ask, how are "they" going to outlaw what I plant or don't on MY PROPERTY, they can't is the only correct answer. The "big ag" super hay field that touches my property has deer that use the same few hundred square feet almost every evening, the rest of the field does not get used in daylight anyway. I could almost set my watch by them same deer leaving my bedding and heading to that little corner of the neighbors field. That field will be there for many more years too. 

What I wonder is how bait that is put out pretty much randomly in different spots from year to year and is only there for a month or two at most compares with a food plot, salt lick, beech tree, an oak tree, a permanent hay field, or an apple tree, etc, etc, etc that drops it's "bait" in the same exact spot every year compares in the prion department. I know what common sense tells me, but common sense never prevails in any of these arguments now does it?


----------



## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Could backfire on them. If they ban bait completely, many non agriculture spots like Lake county might lose hunters. Less hunters equals less deer being killed. So if you population explodes in these areas it could cause more deer to be concentrated and thus help the disease spread.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

canyard said:


> How is a ticket for baiting does anyone know?


One of my in laws got an overbaiting ticket a few years back on stateland up north and it was $125 bucks if I remember correctly.


----------



## canyard (Jan 10, 2010)

Ok thanks I didn't think it was that bad


----------



## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

crossneyes said:


> Not that I care about baiting one way or the other,but what's different if there are 4 deer feeding on spread out corn or 4 deer all feeding under a apple tree?


None its all based on junk science .


----------



## GettinBucky (Jul 18, 2007)

I have no problem with baiting being banned...but when u own 40 acres and your neighbor owns 200 and a grain elevator. You have to do as the neighbors do....

$125 for over bait is peanuts.....some guys have at least that much in bait anyway. 

If you want to stop baiting it will take a big fine to make people think....$1000 for first offense and double it for each consecutive violation.


----------



## angry angler (Mar 4, 2012)

357Maximum said:


> Again, I agree. There is no difference in my eyes whether the "bait" has roots in the dirt or not. I have zero problem with either method being used. I choose not to bait, but that was not always the case. Now my baiting is done for me on most years, thank you Mr. Gravity and a few tenacious apple varieties. They cannot make me kill my trees and I do not think they should stop sensible baiting like we have now. I also do not think we should go around killing every oak and beech tree or every hay, bean or corn field. The baiting debate is STUPID.


Couldn't agree more. I haven't baited at all quit a few years back. One of the issues I have is special seasons for only private. Shoot when I was growing up the youth hunt was just starting and I couldn't participate due to it being on private land only. I'm glad they changed that allowing youths and there families a chance at making memories in your local sga. Now some will get 12 years of the youth hunt and I'm glad they do. All the pics and smiles are priceless and everyday spent in the field is a good day in my book. Hunters often only think of there circumstance and no one else's before they judge.


----------



## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

For those of you speaking about enforcement...

MN DNR confiscates your gun/bow if you're caught baiting.

True!


----------



## walleyerick (Sep 30, 2004)

So Im guessing the sharpshooters brought in to control deer herd populations in certain areas shouldn't be allowed to bait either.....


----------



## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Make it 100 bucks for every gallon your over the limit. Start there then see if a total ban is necessary.
I don't think many people would bother to bait if they had to actually follow the limits


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Another concern is recreational feeding by non-hunters. Many rural people love watching the deer and feed them 365 days a year. In the SLP, that is possibly a bigger concern than hunters using bait. But I don't know how you stop and older lady sprinkling out corn for the deer, even in a CWD zone.


----------



## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

brushbuster said:


> Make it 100 bucks for every gallon your over the limit. Start there then see if a total ban is necessary.
> I don't think many people would bother to bait if they had to actually follow the limits


I like the idea but if they are just going to give a guy a slap on the wrist for poaching I highly doubt they are going stiffen the fines for some guy dumping a few gallons over limit of bait.


----------



## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Another concern is recreational feeding by non-hunters. Many rural people love watching the deer and feed them 365 days a year. In the SLP, that is possibly a bigger concern than hunters using bait. But I don't know how you stop and older lady sprinkling out corn for the deer, even in a CWD zone.


 During the last ban we had CO that said if he saw a deer at a bird feeder and found one sunflower seed on the ground he would ticket the owner. We had a couple of cagey old ladies, my mother's age, that said they had no money to pay a fine and would have to do jail time. .Our locally elected prosecutor did not pursue charges. The old ladies got pretty blatant knowing they were untouchable.


----------



## 2508speed (Jan 6, 2011)

brushbuster said:


> Make it 100 bucks for every gallon your over the limit. Start there then see if a total ban is necessary.
> I don't think many people would bother to bait if they had to actually follow the limits


CO will have to carry two 1 gallon buckets with him in the woods. Then who will pick the bait up to fill the buckets?
I'm calling my lawyer first and not answering any questions.


----------



## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

If baiting is banned, deer will just be concentrated to food plots, thereby making the risk of disease spread more likely. 

One could formulate an effective argument that baiting actually helps prevent disease transmission, by dispersing the herd more than it would be otherwise.


----------



## 2508speed (Jan 6, 2011)

plugger said:


> During the last ban we had CO that said if he saw a deer at a bird feeder and found one sunflower seed on the ground he would ticket the owner. We had a couple of cagey old ladies, my mother's age, that said they had no money to pay a fine and would have to do jail time. .Our locally elected prosecutor did not pursue charges. The old ladies got pretty blatant knowing they were untouchable.


Need pics of cagey old ladies your mom's age!


----------



## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

cakebaker said:


> Ban bait and enroll all stateland into tsi and hingecutting programs. small foodplots may need to be illegal also due to deer density in a small area. Was cwd around when foodplots and bait were not common? Was it the big ag fields deer use to go to that kept cwd from beginning?


So how many of the 4.6 million acres of state land do you think they should wipe our valuable timber out on, for the sake of deer hunting?


----------



## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> The plan also mentions that a risk factor is too many deer on smaller home ranges. So improving the habitat, expanding the habitat and planting food plots should be the course of action.
> 
> 
> Here's the plan...
> https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...ngencyPlan_2012Update_FinalDraft_391020_7.pdf


*Pinefarm, Please confirm that food plots were your conclusion and not the DNR's. I received an email from the DNR that was directly counter to your thoughts on planting food plots with respect to CWD.*


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

plugger said:


> During the last ban we had CO that said if he saw a deer at a bird feeder and found one sunflower seed on the ground he would ticket the owner. We had a couple of cagey old ladies, my mother's age, that said they had no money to pay a fine and would have to do jail time. .Our locally elected prosecutor did not pursue charges. The old ladies got pretty blatant knowing they were untouchable.


Exactly.


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> So how many of the 4.6 million acres of state land do you think they should wipe our valuable timber out on, for the sake of deer hunting?


In my area, there is no "state land" to speak of. It's FEDERAL land. USFS land. Much of what hunters call state land is actually USFS land. While USFS is doing some great specific habitat projects for grouse and the like, and partnering with specific hunting organizations, I can assure you that they are not sitting down at forest habitat planning meetings and opening with how they can make the deer hunting better for the bulk of the guys who hunt 2-3 days a year on USFS land.

Now, improved deer habitat occurs in concurrence with timbering projects. But the objectives of the foresters to how best manage the USFS forests for the next 100 years has little to do with deer hunters wanting to see more deer.


----------



## Downriver Tackle (Dec 24, 2004)

uptracker said:


> For those of you speaking about enforcement...
> 
> MN DNR confiscates your gun/bow if you're caught baiting.
> 
> True!


 Not in the cases I know of. My neighbor just got busted. No equipment confiscation, just a ticket.


----------



## Downriver Tackle (Dec 24, 2004)

GettinBucky said:


> $125 for over bait is peanuts.....some guys have at least that much in bait anyway.
> 
> If you want to stop baiting it will take a big fine to make people think....$1000 for first offense and double it for each consecutive violation.


 Yep. Said neighbor mentioned above got his ticket and paid it. A week before the opener, I was watching him head out on his quad every day or two to state land all loaded up on bait again. And $125 is allot of money to that guy. Forget the fines. I say immediate license revocation and ban for x number of years. That should keep most of them and their bait out of the woods.


----------



## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> They have put a microscope on it. Scroll down to page 19. They mention both supplemental feeding and baiting as intensifying and contributing to CWD spread, vs. natural foraging behavior.
> https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...ngencyPlan_2012Update_FinalDraft_391020_7.pdf


They do mention supplemental feeding and baiting in one reference. However, if you look at the other quoted reference (162) in the link you provided, you will see that the model refers directly to habitat modifications and does not mention supplemental feeding or baiting at all.
The reference article quoted states (https://www.researchgate.net/public...ichment_in_a_model_of_chronic_wasting_disease)
_"To protect species from the danger of extinction and to provide hunters with abundant game populations, conservation biologists and *wildlife managers often modify habitat to increase carrying capacity*. But* increasing carrying capacity could cause prion diseases to persist if K exceeds Kcrit and could further destabilize a susceptible population* in a paradox of enrichment if the carrying capacity is greater than the higher critical value at the Hopf bifurcation".
<----<<<_


----------



## Martian (Apr 28, 2011)

for a few years now, I generally bait with corn, that has a mix of apple juice, vanilla, and maple syrup poured on top, for scent but I only carry out a coffee can full I doubt that I have a half gallon. I carry out enough crap


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Quack Addict said:


> If baiting is banned, deer will just be concentrated to food plots, thereby making the risk of disease spread more likely.
> 
> One could formulate an effective argument that baiting actually helps prevent disease transmission, by dispersing the herd more than it would be otherwise.


Im not a scientist, but I'm guessing there is less concentration and less contact in a food plot.


----------



## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

Steve said:


> Im not a scientist, but I'm guessing there is less concentration and less contact in a food plot.



Steve,

The DNR agrees with you. 

I received an email when I posed that question to the DNR. The message that I received indicated that bait piles posed more of a risk than food plots, but food plots still posed a greater risk than they would experience in a landscape without food plots.
The DNR stated that food plots were discouraged in CWD areas due to increased potential in those areas. They are not restricted because they are agricultural in practice, except instead of human consumption, it is for deer.

All of what the DNR says makes sense to me...especially baiting tending to be worse than food plotting..

I guess it is up to individuals' morals and ethics whether they decide to food plot in "The" zone.


----------



## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

STOP/BAN ALL BAITING!! 

On a side note, does anyone know where I can buy 100# bags of corn?


----------



## fishnpbr (Dec 2, 2007)

Here ya go Walt.

http://www.piercemilling.com/feed.php3


----------



## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Walt Donaldson said:


> STOP/BAN ALL BAITING!!
> 
> On a side note, does anyone know where I can buy 100# bags of corn?


Not sure in the SLP, but if you go up to 487 it is pretty much everywhere. :coco:
<----<<<


----------



## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

fishnpbr said:


> Here ya go Walt.
> 
> http://www.piercemilling.com/feed.php3


Perfect. Now, on to more important questions, where's the best deal on a case of PBR?


----------



## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Perfect. Now, on to more important questions, where's the best deal on a case of PBR?


sounds like yer gettin ready to go huntin


----------



## fishnpbr (Dec 2, 2007)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Perfect. Now, on to more important questions, where's the best deal on a case of PBR?


Walmart, $16.49 a 30 pack plus a $3.00 rebate.


----------



## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Steve said:


> Im not a scientist, but I'm guessing there is less concentration and less contact in a food plot.


I don't bait but I have thought about doing it in the late season. I do have a couple small plots that family sometimes hunts. I know you have plots, do you also bait ? I was wondering how effective it would be in our area, since it seems everyone does it.


----------



## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

brushbuster said:


> sounds like yer gettin ready to go huntin


Bait, Beer and B_ _ _ _ _ s! #Doepatrol


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Trophy Specialist said:


> A couple weeks ago I watched a TV Show that had a DNR Biologist on it talking about CWD. He said that the prions can live in the soil and be taken up growing plant stalks and get into deer when they eat the plants. If that's the case then, any feed imported from CWD areas may be laced with prions and could potentially get into the deer herd that way. When then isn't the DNR demanding a ban on the import of all seeds, feed or other plant mater grown in CWD areas?


That's a very good question.


----------



## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Downriver Tackle said:


> Probably a contributing factor is allot of farmers allow illegal hunting(even out of season) and baiting on their properties. Fairly common practice around here.


They must be doing that all over the country. Lol.


----------



## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

mbrewer said:


> What scientific management law are you referring to? The most recent double down version has been rejected by the courts as unconstitutional. The brainiacs who wrote the legislation disguised it's true intent by adding superficial language and assurances in a manner that is expressly forbidden by the Michigan Constitution.
> 
> Interesting next year? Yeah, interesting for sure.


The MUCC was exposed during the crossbow process. Anyone who chooses to play with them since then, is creating their own problems.....Twice on this debacle.

And they still have their seat at the front of the room at the NRC meetings.....that should be a real confidence boost for sportsmen!


----------



## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> TS, that's exactly why I posted this a few months ago. Some popular retail blocks come from companies in Wisconsin. Could a corn block made in Wisconsin and shipped to Michigan pose a possible larger threat than even a CWD carcass being brought in? If the grains in the block had CWD, many deer could chew on it.Maybe? Possibly worth consideration, as Arkansas is doing.
> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/f...ther-areas-spreading-cwd.562952/#post-5869432


So you are admitting that food plots or AG fields are good vectors in the spread of CWD. And although you can't do much about AG fields. You certainly can help ban food plots in the event of disease. Or are you going to be like the little old ladies with their bird feeders and claim you are not targeting deer with your food plots. Lol.


----------



## Downriver Tackle (Dec 24, 2004)

poz said:


> They must be doing that all over the country. Lol.


Wouldn't doubt it. Farmers generally want to rid their fields of deer, regardless of what state they are in. Not saying it's a sole factor, but possibly a contributing one. It's kind of shocking what farmers are able to get away with.


----------



## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Downriver Tackle said:


> Wouldn't doubt it. Farmers generally want to rid their fields of deer, regardless of what state they are in. Not saying it's a sole factor, but possibly a contributing one. It's kind of shocking what farmers are able to get away with.


If that is true then why do I constantly get turned down by farmers who I ask to hunt their property?


----------



## Downriver Tackle (Dec 24, 2004)

skipper34 said:


> If that is true then why do I constantly get turned down by farmers who I ask to hunt their property?


You just haven't asked the right one yet, or they don't know or trust you enough to let you in on the game. They just don't let joe blow in on the illegal activity. Not good for business. Going rate I hear to take a 10-point off a farm is about $350. Did you ask with cash in hand?


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Downriver Tackle said:


> You just haven't asked the right one yet, or they don't know or trust you enough to let you in on the game. They just don't let joe blow in on the illegal activity. Not good for business. Going rate I hear to take a 10-point off a farm is about $350. Did you ask with cash in hand?


350!
That include field dressing?


----------



## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Downriver Tackle said:


> Wouldn't doubt it. Farmers generally want to rid their fields of deer, regardless of what state they are in. Not saying it's a sole factor, but possibly a contributing one. It's kind of shocking what farmers are able to get away with.


Bait in farm country may spread disease. But highly unlikely that it was the cause. just people trying to deflect what might be the real cause. I'm not against food plots or baiting. But we can't turn a blind eye on either if disease is present in an area. If I have a diseased food plot or a diseased bait pile. The disease on the bait pile stops as soon as I stop baiting. In a good plot those plants will help spread the disease for years. Even if you kill the plot new grass will grow and help spread the disease


----------



## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

will my food plots be more attractive to deer if my neighbor stops baiting ?!?!?!


----------



## Downriver Tackle (Dec 24, 2004)

poz said:


> Bait in farm country may spread disease. But highly unlikely that it was the cause. just people trying to deflect what might be the real cause. I'm not against food plots or baiting. But we can't turn a blind eye on either if disease is present in an area. If I have a diseased food plot or a diseased bait pile.* The disease on the bait pile stops as soon as I stop baiting. * In a good plot those plants will help spread the disease for years. Even if you kill the plot new grass will grow and help spread the disease


 On the pile itself, but that pile could be what infected the plants to begin with and gets the cycle going. The source of the plant infection has to come from somewhere. Either bait piles, infected deer, or???


----------



## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Downriver Tackle said:


> On the pile itself, but that pile could be what infected the plants to begin with and gets the cycle going. The source of the plant infection has to come from somewhere. Either bait piles, infected deer, or???


From my understanding chronic waste disease comes from protein based prion. Let's look at what hunters are using protein based products for deer. the average guy who goes upnorth for a couple of days and throwing bait out is probably not using hardly any protein based products unless it's some kind of mineral block. Now guys managing their properties are buying all kinds of high protein based products from seed to minerals. Just open up a Cabelas Magazine and look at all the high protein products used for food plots. All you need is one contaminated seed producer that ships it out all over the country. And bam! You spread the disease. Like I said look at the maps I posted. The majority of free range infected deer are found in agricultural areas not heavily baited Woods


----------



## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> will my food plots be more attractive to deer if my neighbor stops baiting ?!?!?!


Yes lol. But you might have more guys hunting your fence line


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

poz said:


> From my understanding chronic waste disease comes from protein based prion.


I don't think that's quite correct. 
There is an agent, I don't think that it's been identified, that maps out how a protein forms. A diseased agent tells a protein to form abnormally.
A prion is a malformed protein that been, I believe the term is "folded" or infected. An already infected protein "prion" can and will likely spread it's bad shape to other protein cells and that's how the disease progresses.


http://cwd-info.org/faq/



*What Causes CWD?*
The most widely accepted theory is that the agent is a prion, an abnormal form of cellular protein that is most commonly found in the central nervous system and in lymphoid tissue. The prion “infects” the host animal by promoting conversion of normal cellular protein to the abnormal form.


The CWD infectious agent is smaller than most viral particles and does not evoke any detectable immune response or inflammatory reaction in the host animal. Based on experience with other TSE agents, the CWD infectious agent is assumed to be resistant to enzymes and chemicals that normally break down proteins, as well as resistant to heat and normal disinfecting procedures.


----------



## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

FREEPOP said:


> I don't think that's quite correct.
> There is an agent, I don't think that it's been identified, that maps out how a protein forms. A diseased agent tells a protein to form abnormally.
> A prion is a malformed protein that been, I believe the term is "folded" or infected. An already infected protein "prion" can and will likely spread it's bad shape to other protein cells and that's how the disease progresses.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I was trying to go off memory.
But it still needs a protein-base. Mad cow which is similar was caused by feeding infected tissue ground up in the feed. The tissue was put in to boost protein in the feed. now we are seeing high protein in a ton of plot management products. And the disease popping up in area with a lot of co-ops that manage their land for deer. Is that just a coincidence or is it something that should be looked into?


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

poz said:


> Thanks, I was trying to go off memory.
> But it still needs a protein-base. Mad cow which is similar was caused by feeding infected tissue ground up in the feed. The tissue was put in to boost protein in the feed. now we are seeing high protein in a ton of plot management products. And the disease popping up in area with a lot of co-ops that manage their land for deer. Is that just a coincidence or is it something that should be looked into?


I don't think anything can be ruled out. The agent (that causes the proteins to go whacko) isn't detectable by any current technology, that I know of.


----------



## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Many deer feeds and minerals have an ingredient they may call CRUDE PROTEIN. here I the definition of CRUDE PROTEIN. 

Crude protein content is sometimes used as a standard of quality for dog and cat food. However, crude protein only expresses the amount of protein present, not its source or quality. Protein types vary greatly in quality and can come from a wide variety of sources. Protein in pet food sometimes comes from grains and the *sweepings from slaughterhouse floors*, as well as other meat sources considered not fit for human consumption.

To give credit some feed and mineral manufacturers state that they have no animal proteins in their feed or minerals. But there are also some that do not state that their crude protein does not contain protein from animal parts. So they very well might be using animal parts for protein in deer feed or minerals.


----------



## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> will my food plots be more attractive to deer if my neighbor stops baiting ?!?!?!


Yes but, even one pass through by a trespassing turkey breath canine and your food plot is ruined for 5 years minimum. More if the dog is wearing blue pants when the offense is committed.

True story.


----------



## angry angler (Mar 4, 2012)

Big giant thread that basically comes to this conclusion. Unless it fits my agenda I have no interest in helping the cwd situation. Lol. Sad because this is the sport we all love so much. Like anything selfishness will ruine it.


----------



## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Wonder why the snipers use bait ...if they got all these ag feilds


----------



## ChiefTwodogs (Nov 14, 2016)

TVCJohn said:


> Just curious....do you feel the same way about bait plots on private property?


Piles of sugar beets in an oak flat and a brassica plot are entirely different. I applaud those that improve habitat for Whitetails. I hunt public land so I can't do that but I do run minerals in my area. The difference it makes for nursing does is incredible. I don't hunt anywhere near the mineral stations btw...


----------



## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Is a legal "pile" of beets in the woods, a greater risk than a 1 acre beet plot?


----------



## Tfuscg (Nov 9, 2015)

So looking at the map pa has cwd. I grew up in pa and still a legal residence were baiting isn't legal during hunting season. You have to stop 30 days prior to the season. I was stationed in nj a few years back and baiting was very legal. There were bait piles everywhere. Nj is also over run with deer; however they don't show on the map as having cases of cwd...hmmm. Up has bait piles all over public land and doesn't show any cases either. Not so sure bait piles really matter. have had plenty of success hunting over bait and without bait. I would think the up would be really challenging with out. Mainly because of a smaller deer population but who knows I haven't tried it.


----------



## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Another thing to ponder, is how many people will quite hunting if they can't bait. The DNR is already worried about hunter retention.


----------



## Oger (Aug 28, 2008)

Ban baiting....if people quit i would pay more for a tag.....i think hunting would get better


----------



## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> I believe the Michigan Smarthunters forum has a link to get your honorary PhD. The only requirement is that you have to hunt the same unimproved parcel for 30 years and you have to wonder why most deer no longer visit that parcel during daylight hours. You get bonus points of you overhunt that unimproved poor habitat parcel with over 10 sits a season. If you overhunt it with over 20 sits, you get to be the college dean for a day.


While this post lacks in any amount of substantive information, it makes up in vacuous sarcasm.


----------



## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Oger said:


> Ban baiting....if people quit i would pay more for a tag.....i think hunting would get better


Wisconsin tried it and hunter numbers plummeted. They reversed that move.


----------



## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

ridgewalker said:


> While this post lacks in any amount of substantive information, it makes up in vacuous sarcasm.


Yeah, certain posters seem to get the free pass on "trolling"....

Maybe it's time to shut this thread down.


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> Is a legal "pile" of beets in the woods, a greater risk than a 1 acre beet plot?


According to MDNR, yes, it is clearly a greater risk.

"The research says there is no safe way to feed or bait deer."
Stephen M. Schmitt, D.V.M.
Michigan Department of Natural Resources Wildlife Disease Laboratory

The MDNR CWD Response Plan...
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...ngencyPlan_2012Update_FinalDraft_391020_7.pdf 

"Contact, and so the potential for CWD spread, between doe groups occurs mainly during feeding, and is intensified by supplemental feeding compared to natural foraging behavior.

Supplemental feeding (and likely baiting as well) of deer by humans contributes to spread of CWD, causes habitat destruction near feeders, crowding, fighting and injuries, and starvation due to compensatory increases in population above carrying capacity. Alternative restrictions on the quantity of supplemental feed do not mitigate the potential for CWD transmission."


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Trophy Specialist said:


> Wisconsin tried it and hunter numbers plummeted. They reversed that move.


How's that working out for them?


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

ridgewalker said:


> While this post lacks in any amount of substantive information, it makes up in vacuous sarcasm.


----------

