# Baiting-By the numbers



## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

If the bait industry/Michigan Farm Bureau claims that bait sales in Michigan were roughly $50,000,000 a year, yet the limit was only 2 gallons of bait, then how much bait did the average hunter use? 

Let's look at the numbers and see if we can figure it all out.

From the 2007 MDNR Harvest Survey, we know we have 683,000 deer hunters. We also know those hunters spent 9,700,000 day afield.

From MDNR survey's, we know that 71% of archer's use bait for at least part of the season compared to 53% of firearms hunters. 

For the sake of ease, let's split the difference and say 62% of Michigan deer hunters used bait, before the ban.

We also know from the 2007 MDNR Harvest Survey that the average hunter spent 14 days afield. If you take 9,700,000 days afield and divide that by 683,000 hunters, that's the rough estimate.

If some 62% of the 683,000 hunters bait, then roughly 490,000 deer hunters used bait. And that's only for "some" of the season, not all.

If 490,000 hunters bought $50,000,000 worth of bait, then the average baiter bought $102 worth of bait. 

Bulk bait is much cheaper than bagged bait. A truckload of carrots at many local canneries is roughly $20. A ton of sugar beets in bulk is roughly $50-60.
Most bagged bait is roughly 3 bags for $10. For the sake of argument, we'll use the most expensive bagged option.

So we'll say the average bagged bait if $3.30 a bag. If the average baiter spends $102 bucks or so, then the average baiter buys roughly 30 bags of bait a year.

If the average hunter uses 30 bags of bait a year and hunts 14 days a year, he's using a little over 2 bags a hunt. And that's if he baited every hunt. The surveys only say that they baited some part of the season. So it may be more like 2.5-3 bags per hunt.

Two bags of carrots is more like 12 gallons of bait, not 2 gallons of bait, since you can get roughly three 2 gallon buckets of carrots from a bag. If the average bait hunter spends $100 a year on bait, that's like 90 units of 2 gallons worth of carrots. 30 bags at three 2 gallon buckets each. That's 90 baiting units for an average of 14 hunting days afield.

To assume that hunters are sticking to the 2 gallon limit, you'd have to assume that the average hunter drives to his bait location to bait it 5 times with only 2 gallons for every 1 time he hunts. Or, if he has multiple bait dumps, then he still drives multiple times to bait with only 2 gallons.

What is the average distance the average hunter drives to hunt again? I recall reading the average hunter drives at least 45 minutes each way to hunt. Anyone have that link?

Remember, baiting is only legal during open season. So to assume hunters are baiting and not hunting, then these hunters are supposedly driving during times they could hunt, say 30-45 minutes, placing 2 gallons, not hunting, but jumping back into their truck and driving home, at least several times per bag of bait.

Does anyone buy that? 

Or, if some people actually do follow the 2 gallon limit, then that means other hunters have 3-6 bags per hunt.

Then one has to assume all baiters hunted the average amount of days. The truth is, IMHO, there are probably some baiters that were at or close to the legal limit, but many made up for them by baiting well over the 2 gallon llimit.

As far as those who question seeing truck's loaded with cull carrots, my store window faced M-37. Starting around Sept. 1, we'd see multiple pickup's heading north with a crate's worth overflowing the bed, every day. Chase Farms is nearby and the pickup's line up there all day until the carrots are gone for the day. And that goes on all Fall. Anyone who's ever driven by Chase Farms knows what I'm talking about. The town of Grant used to have several such places too.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Bob, there are way too many assumptions being made in your essay to result in anything more than a WAG.

The average hunter drives 45 minutes? That means that a lot of guys only drive 5 minutes and some guys drive 5 hours from Detroit to the UP. So maybe the guys that drive 5 minutes are the ones that are most likely to use bait because they can easily replace it on a daily basis, whether or not they are hunting. I used bait for my game cams from Oct. 1st to Jan. 1st and would replenish it about every other day. I only hunted about 12 days of that 90 day period on that property, so using the average number of days hunted as a proxy for average number of days baiting fails miserably. You don't have near enough data to reach any kind of a reasonable conclusion concerning whether or not the majority of hunters complied with bait limits, based solely on the dollar value of the impact of the baiting ban. Garbage in/Garbage out. 

Instead of guessing, why don't you just take the word of DNR field personnel who stated in a published report that most hunters using bait in area 452 complied with the bait limit when it was imposed. Why would you assume that other Michigan hunters outside of the TB area would not also be in compliance, do they differ in some fundamental way from those hunters who hunted in 452?


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Munster,
I made the assumption that'd you'd be first to respond. I'm 1 for 1. 

I've accounted for the likely minority like you. There are people that live on or near their land. But most do not. You're actually the type that could be legal and you set the low end of the curve.

The 45 minute drive was something I read in those yearly MSU/U-M/AAA type economic impact of deer season stories. 
Here's a MSU study on deer hunting travel. Pretty interesting stuff...
https://www.msu.edu/~lupi/Knoche-Lupi_EcolEcon_2007.pdf

I AM taking the word of MDNR. I had CO's come into the store quite often. They told me they thought most people put out 2-3 bags at a time.

Since the "bait is still flying off the shelf" and stores report high bait sales and very few actually hunt the UP, then why do you assume compliance with anything?

If hunters followed the bait rules, hardly anybody would be buying anything anywhere. But that's not the reported case, is it? Many baiters aren't complying now and they didn't before either.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

I don't see hardly any bait for sale in my area. No bags at gas stations, none at farm markets, just one hardware store still selling shelled corn. In some areas bait is still being sold, in others very little. If there was some way to prove it, I'd be willing to bet you a bottle of choice that a majority of the 400,000 or so hunters that previously used bait are abiding by the baiting ban, meaning that a majority are in compliance with the law. Earlier this fall, in light of the claims of some that the woods are strewn with tons of rotting bait from illegal bait piles, I suggested that people post pictures of illegal piles. To date I can only remember 1 picture being posted and it was from several years ago. So where is the pictorial evidence of all of this rampant baiting?


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## hunterdude772 (Oct 26, 2008)

Pinefarm said:


> If the bait industry/Michigan Farm Bureau claims that bait sales in Michigan were roughly $50,000,000 a year, yet the limit was only 2 gallons of bait, then how much bait did the average hunter use?
> 
> Let's look at the numbers and see if we can figure it all out.
> 
> ...


pinefarm
Good try. You forgot all the bait bought by people feeding deer for viewing. That would likely bring those numbers right in line.

Try to spin again.

Your passion is commendable but it stinks of greed and selfishness. You have no compassion for those less fortunate than you and I guess that just makes you a pinhead.


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## Scott K (Aug 26, 2008)

Pinefarm, that was a long post so I may have missed it. What is the point you are trying to make? Are you saying some (or many or most) people were using too much bait? Are you saying the $50 million in bait sold is incorrect? I'd like to know what conclusion you were going for.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

The point is that many people angry about the bait ban base bringing bait back on the feeling that they believe the vast majority of baiters were in compliance with the 2 gallon limit law, and if most everyone was using only 2 gallons, what possible harm could there be?

Hunterdude,
Who's being selfish again? Who's crying about what's happened to THEIR hunt, without bait again? Who can't see deer without bait again?
How and I fortunate again? Was it because I had very poor quality land in the highest pressured area in the state? Or was it because I'd dedicated much of my free time over the last decade to do something about it instead of relying solely on bait? 
FYI, the guys on the nearby public land shot as nice of bucks this year as we did. And guess what? They did so without bait. How is that possible?
I guess our program helped them out just as much as us. And it cost them no time or money. I'm cool with that. I hope everyone starts killing better bucks, that way it gets in their head that they don't have to kill something they really aren't excited for, but figure "if they don't, someone else will". But how can the poor, down on their luck public land guys shoot a nice 9pt and 8pt, when greedy, selfish people like me produce great year round browse for all the area deer and hog them all for myself? 
Especially when I haven't killed a buck, and only doe's, since 2005? 

So the guy that does the most in the section to allow the deer to grow another year, produces the best year round browse in the section for all area deer, and then passes them so other's can shoot them is now the selfish one. Got it. :lol:


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## 6inchtrack (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok
Here&#8217;s 6's baiting history for 2007.

Beets were bought in bulk, Two scoops last year, chopped with a hatchet into 2 and 3 inch pieces (ever try to get a sugar beet in a 2 gal. bucket), carrots by the sack, broken by hand or the larger pieces chopped with the hatchet. Shelled corn. Dried molasses and pasture mineral. This was a lot of work, two hours of chopping was enough bait for just short of a week, my wife and son also helped .

I kept 3 two gallon buckets in the truck.

My wife and I shared 6 hunting locations (some years 7 or 8) so we would never burn out a location and to hunt the wind. All but one of these spots would change location or the positioning, My wife&#8217;s favorite location never changed. 

I would either bait in the morning before going to work, coming home from work, or at night after hunting.

I live 10 miles from our favorite hunting locations.

I baited each location every day from the first of October to one week before the start of the firearm season, and would start again at the end of November, usually until Christmas (one year it was New Years Eve).
[/COLOR] 
I had a neighbor who lives in Canton Mi. who we showed the state land where we hunt, He would call when he was planning on being up, and I would put bait at his spot for a few days before he hunted (he always gave me a few bucks).

Last year I took 2 does, and my wife took a spike and a yearling.
Most years it was only 2 deer, sometimes 3.

This year, without bait, we have not taken a deer, even in the firearm season. You see we can no longer use this tool (baiting) to assist us in harvesting deer, and we don&#8217;t have a 3/4 of million dollar improved habitat to hunt on, We hunt the State owned land.

So what does it say to you Pinefarm, if so many people are still using bait? Maybe their just all pochers?
Do you think that this many people just might feel that this ban is bull, and just might be wrong? Probably not because you have already posted that your hunting had gotten so much better.


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## MarkSend (Mar 11, 2008)

Pine, I will say onething for you, must have alot of time on your hands sitting in your blind to think of this. One of the keys to baiting and since you never have baited you wouldn`t know is to start early. Yes one could not start before the oct 1st time but what is to stop the firearm guys from starting say the 5th of nov? The whole idea of baiting is to get the animal use to coming to a certain area. Do you really think it would work if the bait was put out on the night of the 14th? Then there is the idea to put bait again early is several spots(again to be legal here one pile per blind) to see which spot is the better. So indeed one could go put out alot of bait legally. To say that all bait that was bought was used legally is foolish but not as bad as saying that all bait bought was used illegally.


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## hunterdude772 (Oct 26, 2008)

Pinefarm said:


> The point is that many people angry about the bait ban base bringing bait back on the feeling that they believe the vast majority of baiters were in compliance with the 2 gallon limit law, and if most everyone was using only 2 gallons, what possible harm could there be?
> 
> Hunterdude,
> Who's being selfish again? Who's crying about what's happened to THEIR hunt, without bait again? Who can't see deer without bait again?
> ...


OK first you did not address your error in calculating. No comment or just don't know what to say?

Second, read the post. If you can't see that us that don't support the ban are not crying. We state facts as to why it is senseless and our opposition to having someone else's values shoved down our throats. Matters not the subject, someone else's values shoved down my throat gets on the fighting side of me.

Third, you have no idea what my property is like or how many deer I killed this year. So again in your ignorance you presume all guilty until proven innocent. Remarks like those above prove it. I'm sure you interviewed *everyone* in your section and they *all* shot great bucks. Dumb to even say.

You talk about us being angry and not you. Well pinefarm, the thief is never angry but the victims are always angry. You talk about how those on state land don't *deserve* the same kind of hunting as you who works so hard. That is greed and selfishness of mass proportions. You must be greedy and selfish by nature to not be able to read your posts and get ill.

Again matters not the subject, anyone who could take from others for his own benefit and then attempt to rub their nose in it, is warped. I'm sure you were never taught "DO UNTO OTHERS" but try it. You might just be surprised the positive effect you could have on those around you.


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## Quadd4 (Jan 15, 2005)

Pine,


Because all of this comes as a result of the spread of CWD, let me ask you this;

How would you, the guy that does the most in the section to allow the deer to grow another year, produces the best year round browse in the section for all area deer, and then passes them so other's can shoot them, feel if your unnecessary food plotting was found to be a source for CWD? If a section of your soil was found to contain prions would you be piping to the same tune or would you turn advocate to ban all plotting?

In the face of CWD, human intervention in the form of plotting or baiting can increase the transmission chances. Just because you guys are on the side of the law that allows your practices and will continue to benefit from them you continue to look the other way. I just dont get it? 

At this time or until we get a clear bill of heath on this CWD, I would say that if you plant any type of food product/plot for the sole purpose of the deer, I think deep down its more for the guy putting the seeds in the ground.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

When I talk about year round browse, I'm not even thinking of my tiny food plots. 
If MDNR says there's a risk and that I or farmers shouldn't plant wheat, rye or oats, I won't. It won't effect my management plan at all. Food plots are the least of what I've done.
But so far, in phone conversations with biologists, they tell me small rye fields offer no risk greater than any good oak tree. So I'll take the deer specialists at their word.
If that changes, I'll change with it.


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## Quadd4 (Jan 15, 2005)

Pine,

I have a huge oak tree in my backyard and this year I collected 3 huge bags of acorns in case the ban was reversed. In your logic, the risk of me adding 2 gallons of these acorns under a oak tree near my stand would pose little risk just like your little plot but the difference is my method is a called baiting and is illegal. Yours is called plotting and is legal but I'm sure your smart enough to see the similarity. You could earn a lot of respect by volentarily stopping your plotting until this CWD is given a green light but instead you condone one method while doing the samething in a law loophole. 

By the way - The 3 bags of acorns found their way to a dumpster.


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## 8nchuck (Apr 20, 2006)

Maybe they are using the sales dollars to the outlets, not the hunters. The gas stations and the like have to buy the stuff outright. Even if they did not sell all the bait they had, the farmer still got the money up front.


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## oldrank (Dec 5, 2006)

(quoted from Pinefarm) "Or, if some people actually do follow the 2 gallon limit, then that means other hunters have 3-6 bags per hunt."




I would believe this would be the case.......The violators are skewing the numbers. If they arent following the law of 2 gallons they are gonna go "all in" and use as much as they can get out there.


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## 6inchtrack (Sep 29, 2008)

Pinefarm said:


> When I talk about year round browse, I'm not even thinking of my tiny food plots.
> If MDNR says there's a risk and that I or farmers shouldn't plant wheat, rye or oats, I won't. It won't effect my management plan at all. Food plots are the least of what I've done.
> But so far, in phone conversations with biologists, they tell me small rye fields offer no risk greater than any good oak tree. So I'll take the deer specialists at their word.
> If that changes, I'll change with it.


Try calling this guy bubba.
I copied it from another thread.


_Scott,

Thanks for sending your inquiry into the CWD Alliance! Your question is a good one and is also one that has sparked debate among biologists and hunters for many years. To answer plainly, any situation, whether created by natural or artificial means, that causes wild animals to congregate at or regularly revisit a specific location, has the potential to cause an increase in animal to animal contact and environmental contamination that can potentially spread disease and/or parasites. CWD is only one of many diseases that can be spread and propagated through the congregation of animals. There is no doubt that if feed plots were being used in an area where CWD was present in wild populations, the risk of spreading the disease at that site would increase. Based on studies from the University of Michigan, risk of CWD transmission at these sites may be even higher than most diseases since the prions likely responsible for transmitting the disease persist in the soil for several years. These finding have been anecdotally verified at the Colorado Division of Wildlife Research Facility where CWD was first identified. Over the years, repeated attempts at sterilizing the facility and its grounds have failed. Every cervid that has been housed at the facility has contacted the disease seemingly from the environment (likely soil). 

To my knowledge, no one is presently conducting a study specifically on feed plots and their potential role in spreading CWD. While such a study would be interesting, the ongoing environmental contamination studies of CWD will likely yield the results needed to help wildlife managers regulate the issues you have identified.



I hope I answered your questions. If not, please don't hesitate to contact me so we can visit further.



Best Regards,

Matt Dunfee

Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance Coordinator

Wildlife Management Institute 

Post Office Box 33819

Washington, DC 20033-0819
_


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Although I don't have time to read every line of this thread I can say the numbers look OK. The original post is assuming bait is only dumped at the time of the hunt and that is the first problem. I dumped approx. 2 gal at five stands every single day of the season. Most of the time I bought a 8x6x4 trailer overflowing with shelled corn for $85.00 and that would last the entire season, Oct.-Dec. But when I had to buy it bagged I went through many more bags than 30 and spent hundreds of dollars. It is a big industry and I hope to hell it comes back next year for I thought this year was very boring even though we took just as many bucks as does for the first time ever the overall count of deer sighted went from about 30/day to 5.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

6inch,
I've seen that paste passed around.

However, I had my call directed to Dr. Mike Miller, the CWD expert from CO and Steve Schmidt from MDNR.

I also asked about urine based scents, taken from deer pens. I thought those would pose a great risk. 

The response I got back was "nope", urine based scents, even if from deer farms and rye/wheat fields aren't a concern. 

Sounds like above ground, pre-grown bait dumped in a small area is their big concern.

I did a google of Mark Dunfee and found nothing. Is a he CWD deer expert? Is he a Dr. of biology?

Not to nitpick, but does U-M have animal research? I thought that'd be MSU?


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

Baiting, food plots, acorn trees, apple tree or a farm feild. It is all the same it brings deer in to a certain area and with that increases the chance of a spreading.
No baiting allwowed in the Tb zone yet it has spread to counties to the south. How did this happen?
Deer are a social creature and they are in constant contact with one another, more of this goes on than a hunter would believe. I have seen more contact in food plots and in the woods than in a bait pile. 
lets look at this. A 1/2 acre food plot and a poor acorn crop where are the deer heading, ....all to the food plot one area. Now add in say 3 hunter in that area average hunter has three stands ......... now you have 10 diffrent feeding areas during the fall versus the one. With my figures and that I have seen from or west bait piles are not the cause of the spread. If it was cwd would never had made it to the east and Texas would be the CWD hub.
Pine farm in your math you did not add in for all the multy stand site we hunters have. At one time I ran six stands and would go threw 6 bags a week.
I kept it legal this year and had no bait, I went looking for active places and hunted from the ground, I did nothin for the bow season, but had a great gun season. I learned alot and have no problem hunting with out bait even with less deer sited. But many do not have the time to put afield and baiting was the way the learned to hunt, and now we are telling them they must relearn to hunt and for alot of them gave them only a couple weeks to do it in.


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

While studying for a masters in baiting I recall similar debates that rubbed me raw. Came to fists sometimes. Or at least a lot of fist shaking.


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## cadillacjethro (Mar 21, 2007)

Pinefarm said:


> But so far, in phone conversations with biologists, they tell me small rye fields offer no risk greater than any good oak tree. So I'll take the deer specialists at their word.
> If that changes, I'll change with it.


Ask those same biologists if deer congregating under an oak or apple tree would increase chances of spreading disease. I bet their answer would be yes. Ya know, animals in close proximity yada, yada, yada.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Wildcoy,
I did mention multi bait locations. I was only waiting for someone to mention how many bait sites they have/had. All the more justification for a bait ban. Maybe if hunters were only limited to one 2 gallon bait site per year and have to buy a $50 tag for it and mark it, then bait could be controlled. But even then, I have little faith in compliance on a quasi-regulated aspect of deer hunting, other than the honor system.
The honor system doesn't work well, if in the shadows.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Jethro,
I asked if a ban of scents/plots made sense. The answer was no. In suburbs, landscaping with flowers attracts as many deer, after dark, as many small rye fields. 

Nobody seems to grasp how bait draws deer unlike nothing else out there.


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## cadillacjethro (Mar 21, 2007)

Pinefarm said:


> Wildcoy,
> I did mention multi bait locations. I was only waiting for someone to mention how many bait sites they have/had. All the more justification for a bait ban. Maybe if hunters were only limited to one 2 gallon bait site per year and have to buy a $50 tag for it and mark it, then bait could be controlled. But even then, I have little faith in compliance on a quasi-regulated aspect of deer hunting, other than the honor system.
> The honor system doesn't work well, if in the shadows.


The honor system works fine for me. I leave $5 in the boat launch box even when nobody is looking. What you do in the shadows dictates to me whether you are indeed honorable or not.


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## cadillacjethro (Mar 21, 2007)

Pinefarm said:


> Jethro,
> I asked if a ban of scents/plots made sense. The answer was no. In suburbs, landscaping with flowers attracts as many deer, after dark, as many small rye fields.
> 
> Nobody seems to grasp how bait draws deer unlike nothing else out there.


My mother's flower garden attracts deer to no end. Should she till it under? If we are talking about the transmission of disease, the answer is yes. Your biologist friend needs to put the crack pipe down or do something else for a living. Using their own logic, anything that congregates deer should be banned. Just because landscaping attracts as many deer, this doesn't make your foodplot right. Landscaping probably attracts more deer than baiting. It may not be practical to ban your foodplot but if you're going to ban baiting, it absolutely makes sense.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Pinefarm said:


> Jethro,
> 
> Nobody seems to grasp how bait draws deer unlike nothing else out there.


Except food plots, especially if they are sprayed with chemicals to sweeten them just prior to the season opening. :lol:

Come on Bob, sugar beets, carrots, corn or whatever the crop is, does not have an increased drawing power just because it's spread on the ground instead of still being in the field. it's the same stuff. I hunted yesterday over a food plot that had the corn harvested but there was an awful lot of corn left on the ground and a lot of half eaten corn ears lying between the rows. Judging by the tracks in the snow, the deer have been hammering that plot. It's a joke to think that if I spread some shelled corn in a 10 x 10 square that it would have any more drawing capacity then this particular food plot did. Here is a pic of a flock of geese that landed just past the blind I was in, to gorge themselves on corn that was spilled when the field was harvested. Yeah, bait is a threat but food plots and agricultural fields pose no threat at all! :lol::lol::lol:


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## hunterdude772 (Oct 26, 2008)

Pinefarm said:


> 6inch,
> I've seen that paste passed around.
> 
> However, I had my call directed to Dr. Mike Miller, the CWD expert from CO and Steve Schmidt from MDNR.
> ...


I googled "Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance Coordinator" and the very first entry had all you need to know.
http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/news.detail/ID/109945880c1b2c66ec60a6c31e83397d




Funny how we can all choose our own experts. Ones that fit our agenda. I guess you have no faith in:

Boone And Crockett Club
Mule Deer Foundation
Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Pope And Young Club
Quality Deer Management Association
National Shooting Sports Foundation, Inc.
Wildlife Management Institute
Camp Fire Conservation Fund
Izaak Walton League Of America
Bio-Rad Laboratories
IDEXX Laboratories
Dallas Safari Club
Whitetails Unlimited
National Fish and Wildlife Foundation
American Wildlife Conservation Fund
Safari Club International
National Taxidermists Association
Wildlife Disease Information Node
Archery Trade Association
Cabela's
Holy crap do I see QDMA???

This is from their page supported by your great leaders:

*Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance FAQ*
*http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fu...9a5a4261400ea2*
*How Does CWD Spread? *​ 


*It is not known exactly how CWD is transmitted. The infectious agent may be passed in feces, urine or saliva.....Concentrating deer and elk in captivity or by artificial feeding probably increases the likelihood.......Contaminated pastures appear to have served as sources of infection.....*​ 
Maybe you can tell me "What kind of science is this?"​ 
*My understanding has always been that "may be" "probably" and "appear to have" do not constitute "principles of sound scientific management" that MUST guide the NRC.*​ 
Now do you think your experts are so expert now? Or do they simply say what you want to hear?​


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## Falk (Jan 18, 2005)

slammer said:


> Although I don't have time to read every line of this thread I can say the numbers look OK. The original post is assuming bait is only dumped at the time of the hunt and that is the first problem. I dumped approx. 2 gal at five stands every single day of the season. Most of the time I bought a 8x6x4 trailer overflowing with shelled corn for $85.00 and that would last the entire season, Oct.-Dec. But when I had to buy it bagged I went through many more bags than 30 and spent hundreds of dollars. It is a big industry and I hope to hell it comes back next year for I thought this year was very boring even though we took just as many bucks as does for the first time ever the overall count of deer sighted went from about 30/day to 5.


Don't count on it coming back anytime soon.


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## Quadd4 (Jan 15, 2005)

Pinefarm -- you can't seem to see the forest through your food plot. I gave up baiting for the good of it all, you should too!


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

hunterdude772 said:


> I googled "Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance Coordinator" and the very first entry had all you need to know.
> http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/news.detail/ID/109945880c1b2c66ec60a6c31e83397d


Thanks for the link.

I found the following two papers there on baiting/feeding and felt they were both well worth a read.

 *Chronic Wasting Disease and the Science in support of the Ban on Baiting and Feeding Deer.*
Timothy R. Van Deelen Ph.D. Wisconsin DNR Research

 *A Comprehensive Review of the Ecological and Human Social Effects of Artificial Feeding and Baiting of Wildlife *
Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre, Department of Veterinary Pathology, Western College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Saskatchewan

-na


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## hunterdude772 (Oct 26, 2008)

Nick Adams said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> I found the following two papers there on baiting/feeding and felt they were both well worth a read.
> 
> ...


Be serious man. When have you ever seen wild deer eat each others brains?

"Six mule deer fawns were fed a daily dose of 2g (0.07 ounces) of brain tissue from CWD-positive mule deer in a tightly controlled experiment for 5 days."

This kind of stuff is trash. I'm sure that if they fed you a sick persons innards you'd get sick too. Duh.

You know these are same guys that can tell us exactly what happened 100 millions years ago and why God does not exist. If you buy that I have a bridge to sell you.


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## scott kavanaugh (Jan 8, 2006)

Pinefarm said:


> 6inch,
> I've seen that paste passed around.
> 
> However, I had my call directed to Dr. Mike Miller, the CWD expert from CO and Steve Schmidt from MDNR.
> ...


miller and schmidt, these are the guys that tried to mislead everyone, to get everyone to buy into their way of thinking. miller quotes numbers from his state that don't even exist, and schmidt cooks up numbers that have never been approached in the real world anywhere. If I had your agenda, I would nitpick for another nitwit and go for another msu'er too.:lol:


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

What if CWD were AIDS and baiting was like unprotected sex. Could the visionary "don't tread on me" crowd see past the carrot pile. Could they find a safe solution? What if fish had feet?


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## markbarth (Sep 30, 2008)

johnny,
Just add in a couple of maybe's with your what if's and could's and you qualify as a biologist for the mdnr & mda


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## swoosh (Sep 29, 2006)

Who cares, baiting in SLP is gone as of today. 

The season is about over, people still bought bait


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## dsgt1 (Jun 17, 2008)

Well the bottom line is all the $$$$ lost to michigan farmers & the economy. also what about the hunter that walks out his door the 200yrds to his stand. I feel it is just a roose to get more $$$ form us hunters for the state that is in shambles. It is always the special interest groups hit 1st. i.e. hunters ,smokers ,drinkers, etc.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Pinefarm,

Your numbers are probably wrong. How can you track what feed was used for baiting deer and what was used for Livestock. I use to buy my corn at the REED City feed store. They never asked me for what it was for. They may sell it as bait or feed. So, is their total sales of corn being counted as bait or feed???? I live in Metro detroit. On a 15 mile drive to and from work I use to pass 6 bait piles that I can see from the road that were there all year around, not just hunting season. These are in places that hunting is not allowed just viewing. I'm sure there are many more that I don't see. Also I know guys that have feeders on ponds and lakes for ducks. These Throw corn all year around also. A freind of mine spent $50 a week 52 weeks a year on corn to feed the deer in her subdivision. Are you deducting for these. Of course not. As long as you can skew the numbers to make it fit your agenda, you will do it. It's time to take a step back and take a look at yourself. You went from a guy who wanted to do something better for the sport to a guy who is helping ruin the sport by having the my way is right attitude and if you don't do it my way then you are not a hunter.
Just learn to enjoy the outdoors again and respect other peoples methods of hunting the way you want them to respect yours.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Also Pinefarm. 

Using your numbers. There are roughly 56,809 sq. miles of land in michigan. This equates to roughly 36,357,760 acres. Let's take out 6,357,760 acres for city and towns etc. So now you are left with 30,000,000 huntable acres. You state baiting is a $50,000,000 a year industry. So we need to spend $1.66 to bait every acre. At $3.30 a bag, it comes out to baiting every huntable acre once a year with 1/2 a bag of bait.


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## MuskyDan (Dec 27, 2001)

Pinefarm said:


> Wildcoy,
> I did mention multi bait locations. I was only waiting for someone to mention how many bait sites they have/had. All the more justification for a bait ban. Maybe if hunters were only limited to one 2 gallon bait site per year and have to buy a $50 tag for it and mark it, then bait could be controlled. But even then, I have little faith in compliance on a quasi-regulated aspect of deer hunting, other than the honor system.
> The honor system doesn't work well, if in the shadows.


The honor system is all we have and until the MDNR becomes a bit more proactive in their management polocies and license sales it is all we are ever going to have. I have faith that most people make an attempt to stay with in the law!


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## symen696 (Nov 7, 2006)

poz said:


> Pinefarm,
> 
> Your numbers are probably wrong. How can you track what feed was used for baiting deer and what was used for Livestock. I use to buy my corn at the REED City feed store. They never asked me for what it was for. They may sell it as bait or feed. So, is their total sales of corn being counted as bait or feed???? I live in Metro detroit. On a 15 mile drive to and from work I use to pass 6 bait piles that I can see from the road that were there all year around, not just hunting season. These are in places that hunting is not allowed just viewing. I'm sure there are many more that I don't see. Also I know guys that have feeders on ponds and lakes for ducks. These Throw corn all year around also. A freind of mine spent $50 a week 52 weeks a year on corn to feed the deer in her subdivision. Are you deducting for these. Of course not. As long as you can skew the numbers to make it fit your agenda, you will do it. It's time to take a step back and take a look at yourself. You went from a guy who wanted to do something better for the sport to a guy who is helping ruin the sport by having the my way is right attitude and if you don't do it my way then you are not a hunter.
> Just learn to enjoy the outdoors again and respect other peoples methods of hunting the way you want them to respect yours.


 They can tell when September hits and their sales start climbing and by January they go back to normal. At least thats what the guy at the feed store said....This is stricly hunting bait I would assume.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

poz said:


> Also Pinefarm.
> You state baiting is a $50,000,000 a year industry.


For the record, that figure is not Pinefarm's. It is the figure cited by the baiting "lobby", if there is such a thing, and if anything, it's overstated.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

A DNR survey conducted by Ed Langenau in 1984, estimated that $13 million worth of bait was used that year in Michigan, during an era when over half of the hunters surveyed thought that baiting was illegal. According to Langenau, 29% of Michigan hunter's baited in 1984. The principle bait materials were apples, sugar beets & carrots. Given that more recent DNR surveys have shown that up to 70% of archery hunters and 51% of firearms hunters used bait and that corn has become one of the more common bait materials used (corn being more expensive), I think that the an increase from $13 million to $50 million over 24 years is entirely plausible. The $50 million dollar figure came from a Farm Bureau commodities analyst who probably has a pretty good handle on the values of the materials involved.


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## scott kavanaugh (Jan 8, 2006)

johnnysmallgame said:


> What if CWD were AIDS and baiting was like unprotected sex. Could the visionary "don't tread on me" crowd see past the carrot pile. Could they find a safe solution? What if fish had feet?


Well johnny, don't you think it's time somebody besides the "visionary don't tread on me crowd", is asked to see the light. Maybe it's time for the minority and that appears to include managment, to see past the (Bio Logic bucks in the cam shots) and do what is right for the herd????? Can the folks that had envisioned Michigan being some version of a DEER FOREST, find a safe solution?????? What if fish had wings????????


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## 12970 (Apr 19, 2005)

I am having a hard time getting the point of baiting if it is required to be spread out over a 10 X 10 area the 2.5 gallons deer would have a better chance of eating from the same cob of corn in a farmers field than spreading it from eating bait the same for food plots you don't think that deer browse in the same spot for the best they can find in an area. And they do the same in just about every farm field that has something deer will eat summer, fall & winter and maybe late spring. So the chances of it getting spread is good any place where deer are. I just find this whole thing a questionable stance to take. I understand they are trying to do something but again there is no real way to stop it from speading since there was no bait more deer were out in corn fields finding their food and again they will eat from the same cob of corn... It is just funny how they think they need to take it all in not just bait and farmers won't be putting up tall fences to keep the deer out just can justify the cost so it will get spread just maybe a little slower and they still have no idea why it is here now and why it has come along just that it is out there... Also there is no way they will prohibit food plots on private lands as well so it could continue when they have no way to end it since they have no idea what is causing it in one deer and not the others in the same captive fenced area... 

And being found in Kent County maybe they should have banned bait in zon 2 but again they are just jumping at a place to start and no sceince to use to help them out... So much again for data being a means to know real info from any other info out there on this CWD... One deer so far and no others... Interesting...

Newaygo1


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## duckhunter382 (Feb 13, 2005)

the part i cant figure out is why are the co's so dilligent about writing tickets this year but did not even flinch last year about over baiting? the only bait pile I can see as possibly spreading disease is one that was illegal last year, so how is this any different than gun control? enforce the laws on the book dont give us new laws.


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