# The Ethanol Boom and Fencerow Destruction



## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

When the ethanol thing takes off, The woodlots will probably go also. someday you slp guys will be able to see from horizon to horizon. At least there wont be anymore overpopulation problem.

SAVE A FENCEROW
QUIT EATING


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## Bear Creek (Feb 9, 2003)

swampbuck said:


> When the ethanol thing takes off, The woodlots will probably go also. someday you slp guys will be able to see from horizon to horizon. At least there wont be anymore overpopulation problem.
> 
> SAVE A FENCEROW
> QUIT EATING


Not likely to happen unless they come up with a way to make cellulose ethanol more effiecently. If they do, its more likely to effect the woods of Norhtern MI with cutting, which in the long run would be better for all woodland wildlife! But to your point it wouldn't bother me a bit if we lost more woodlots and overgrown fields in southern MI. That alone could help the upland birds if there is enough grasses fields left for nesting. Besides we all know there are to many deer in SE MI.

BC


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I wasnt thinking of cellulose ethanol, I was thinking about the woodlots being put into grain production after the farmers extract the timber value of course which could finance the preparation of the new acreage. If it is worth it to clear a couple acres of fence row its probably worth it to clear a 10 or 20 acre woodlot.

for you guys that lease, Do you have some kind of protection in your lease if the farmer removes habitat? And how would that effect the price of desirability of the lease?


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Those that hit on the pasturing are right on. When I was a kid there were few deer in southern michigan. I remember bushy tail hunting and the wood lots were like parks. The trees had no branches below head height and there was no under brush at all. Everything that wasnt under direct tillage was pastured. The grass was close cropped and you could see forever. As grain and hay prices became depressed it was more efficent to feed lot cattle rather than build and maintain fences on marginal land. If beef prices follow grain prices running a few cattle on rough land may again become economical. When gran and feed prices were low many marginal fields were allowed to grow up and were abandoned. Fencelines and brushy areas were allowed to creep wider because there realy wasnt an econmoic loss. Its only natural that high corn prices will have people looking to plant marginal ground. It also follows logic that increased crop values will lead to less tolerance for for crop depridation. Abandoned or lightly farmed ag lands are ideal wildlife havens. In our area the ag situation has changed even more than southern michigan, with less than half the land in ag production than 50 years ago. I dont know how many times I have been with my fatherinlaw or other old timers and they shake their heads and say the remember combining wheat in an area that now is wooded. I dont think tere are many farmers with unfarmed areas that arent penciling out the cost to bring that land into production. People maybe critical but agriculture is a bussiness and you do what you can to increase your income. Most bussinessmen try to expand to take advantage of good times, farmers will too.


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

ih772 said:


> You seem to be forgetting that the habitat you propose these animals are going to move into, are already inhabited by animals of the same species. Its not a vacuum. What happens when one animal of the same species tries to move into the territory of another of that same species? They don't say "Hey, I see you lost your home. Come on over and I'll share mine with you." So now you've lost all the nesting and rearing area those fencerows provided.


It has to do with carring capacity. Certain areas are going to be diffenent. But In the Lexington area the the fence rows for the most part still have plenty of carring capapcity. As long as it does the exiting animals using it will have no problem with new animals moving in to use it. They'll have no problem until the food or shelter with in it becomes scarce. In my area that is not a problem

Where are you guys when we talk about the gutting of rain forests???:16suspect


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## ih772 (Jan 28, 2003)

What makes you think the fence rows are not already at their carrying capacity?

Why is the destruction of fence rows ok, but its not ok for the rain Forest? I bet the rain Forest isn't at its carrying capacity either, so its ok to cut down large areas.

Seems to me you are contradicting yourself. :16suspect


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Habitat is the limiting factor for most game and non game animals.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

They took EVERY available fencerow, and logged our property back to back years. These deer have NO way to understand all of this. They destroyed a lot of good hunting areas.


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

> What makes you think the fence rows are not already at their carrying capacity?


As I said different regions or areas will be different. In my area they aren't at their max carrying capacity. There is always plenty of space and lots of food and buds left on trees and shrubs. 





> Why is the destruction of fence rows ok, but its not ok for the rain Forest? I bet the rain Forest isn't at its carrying capacity either, so its ok to cut down large areas.


Didn't say it ws O.K. The reason I put that in the thread is too show that hardly anyone here will say squat about the destruction of rainforrest and will call it necessary development but the cutting down of fence rows is a critical issue. There isn't much consitancy. Fencerow saving = looking out for the environment and habitat. Rain forrest saving = treehugger liberal wako.



> Seems to me you are contradicting yourself.


 I think my last paragraph shows where I think the contradition lies here. 

Habitat loss sometimes has little effect and other times it effects greatly. I have reported that in our area the effect has been little because there is still plenty of habitat. It certainly can be changing elsewhere including rainforrests.


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## walleye (Aug 12, 2006)

So how many of your fence rows have you cut down? :lol:


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Thanks Plugger and Fairfax.

Those explanations make a lot of sense.


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## bishs (Aug 30, 2000)

FL, your exactly right. My brother Gregg, "peck" and I were just talking about that. They are taking out fencerows all over. The high corn prices have caused boom in corn production and a shortage of other crops. Causing thier prices to jump. Red Wheat was $8 a bushel. As the ethanol surge continues you will see switch grass and wood products making ethanol. 
I heat my house with corn, its still much cheaper than propane. I guess I am adding to the problem.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

walleye said:


> So how many of your fence rows have you cut down? :lol:


If you are directing your question to me, well, the answer is, zero. In fact, back in 1999, I invested considerable resources in beefing up my fencerows. Between planting shrubs and conifers along old fencerows (some have old fields on both sides of them, others have crops on one side, old fields on the other), I have thickened up old fencerows in eight locations, totaling over one linear mile. Songbirds, gamebirds, rabbits, and deer utilize these fencerows like crazy. There are two spots within these fencerows that mature bucks regularly bed in in the fall, and I created another buck bed along one of the fencerows which appeared to have been utilized this past season.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Very bad news for pheasant and quail as well as many are opting out of CRP cause they can make a great deal with crops. It is a very sad thing I have lost a few places to hunt due to this and they were loaded with pheasants 

Ganzer


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

farmlegend said:


> If you are directing your question to me, well, the answer is, zero. In fact, back in 1999, I invested considerable resources in beefing up my fencerows. Between planting shrubs and conifers along old fencerows (some have old fields on both sides of them, others have crops on one side, old fields on the other), I have thickened up old fencerows in eight locations, totaling over one linear mile. Songbirds, gamebirds, rabbits, and deer utilize these fencerows like crazy. There are two spots within these fencerows that mature bucks regularly bed in in the fall, and I created another buck bed along one of the fencerows which appeared to have been utilized this past season.


I was wondering how wide your fence rows are that you made improvements on?


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

WILDCATWICK said:


> I was wondering how wide your fence rows are that you made improvements on?


They ranged in width between practically indiscernable and approximately 10 yards. Now, they're somewhere between 15 and 30 yards wide.


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

farmlegend said:


> They ranged in width between practically indiscernable and approximately 10 yards. Now, they're somewhere between 15 and 30 yards wide.


Why are you letting them expand? As a farmer wouldn't it be a better business decision to maximize tillable acreage?


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

NoWake said:


> Why are you letting them expand? As a farmer wouldn't it be a better business decision to maximize tillable acreage?


None of the expansion is upon active crop fields. It's old on what's known as "old fields" (check out the old field management article which appeared in QW about a year ago). Where a crop field is adjacent to an old field, the new growth is on the old field side.


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

Of course, I should have known.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

a mile of fencerow is still only about 5 acres. michigan is going to see 31,000 acres of CRP expire this year and 100,000 over the next 5 years. that's out of only 261,000 CRP acres at present. i'm sure a large percentage wont be renewed and will be planted into crops.

fencerows form a part of good habitat, but in the overall picture, the acerage is small. only a few acres of fencerow might border a 240 acre CRP field.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

dogwhistle said:


> a mile of fencerow is still only about 5 acres. michigan is going to see 31,000 acres of CRP expire this year and 100,000 over the next 5 years. that's out of only 261,000 CRP acres at present. i'm sure a large percentage wont be renewed and will be planted into crops.


You very well may be right. But keep in mind that commodity prices are a pretty fluid thing. A couple from now commodity prices may be setting new records, or they may be in the tank and landowners might be beating down the door for CRP contracts.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i dont think that will happen. ethanol production has made a large market for corn outside the ordinary agricultural market, where most corn went to animal feed. and the higher demand for corn has driven up the price of other grain. there is an unlimited demand for ethanol so basically corn is in the same boat as oil prices. we can only eat so much grain and feed a limited amount to livestock, but there is no limit to the amount of fuel we can use.

i saw a prediction on another forum, that the big producing states, Dakotas, Iowa etc will lose 60+% of their CRP in the next 5 yrs. michigan doesnt have much to lose, they have about 1/6th as much CRP as most of those states.


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

Seems everyone blames ethanol for higher prices but no one looks at the price of diesel fuel as a reason.
A by product of ethanol is a high protien feed for livestock.
Also there is a high export demand for wheat around the world because of last years drought situation.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

everything moves by truck several times until it reaches the consumer. and diesel fuel has been higher than regular gas for at least a couple years.

but- corn prices are not driven by the cost of diesel, ag prices dont work that way. they are up because of a higher demand and the demand is created by ethanol. and that causes other grains to rise as more acerage is put into corn.

the dept of ag. has estimates of how much acerage is expected to come out of the CRP program in the near future. you can see for yourself. and that is going to have a huge effect on upland gamebirds and waterfowl.


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## Ralph Smith (Apr 1, 2003)

dogwhistle said:


> everything moves by truck several times until it reaches the consumer. and diesel fuel has been higher than regular gas for at least a couple years.
> 
> but- corn prices are not driven by the cost of diesel, ag prices dont work that way. they are up because of a higher demand and the demand is created by ethanol. and that causes other grains to rise as more acerage is put into corn.
> 
> the dept of ag. has estimates of how much acerage is expected to come out of the CRP program in the near future. you can see for yourself. and that is going to have a huge effect on upland gamebirds and waterfowl.


Not everything ships by truck, alot is shipping more and more by rail since its alot cheaper with the deisel costs. Rail stocks have triple in last 2 years, if your a stock man, that and commodities go hand in hand since the trucks can't handle the bulk amount of a train. My 401k is doing great, ship by rail We've doubled the corn hauling last year or so, ethanol is the main reason.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

WILDCATWICK said:


> But I don't think it will effect any populations in the wildlife what so ever. Do you?



Definitely. Look at the change in dominant hawk species in Washtenaw county over the last 30 years - as more and more fencerows and woodlots have been cleared Red-Tailed Hawks have gone from being only about the 3rd most common hawk to number one - and by a huge margin. The two above them have gone from relatively abundant, to being much less common.

-- 
lp


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

Ralph Smith said:


> Not everything ships by truck, alot is shipping more and more by rail since its alot cheaper with the deisel costs. Rail stocks have triple in last 2 years, if your a stock man, that and commodities go hand in hand since the trucks can't handle the bulk amount of a train. My 401k is doing great, ship by rail We've doubled the corn hauling last year or so, ethanol is the main reason.


yes, but you have to ship the products by truck to get to the train and again to get them off. and most times several times after that to get to the retailer. and the higher cost of diesel and gasoline is what is pushing the ethanol production.

trains are a much more effecient way of moving large quantities long distances. but i cant think of a case where at some point the goods arent moved to and from a train by a truck. rail cars can offload corn at Purina for dog food. but that corn was taken to the elevator by truck, and the Pro Plan is moved more than once by truck until it reaches the retailer.


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

pescadero said:


> Definitely. Look at the change in dominant hawk species in Washtenaw county over the last 30 years - as more and more fencerows and woodlots have been cleared Red-Tailed Hawks have gone from being only about the 3rd most common hawk to number one - and by a huge margin. The two above them have gone from relatively abundant, to being much less common.
> 
> --
> lp


Any evidence such as research showing that the species numbers have declined over the midwest overall due to habitat loss? Again I'm not talking about local loss but overall regional or more specific mid-west especially when it comes to birds.


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## Ralph Smith (Apr 1, 2003)

dogwhistle said:


> yes, but you have to ship the products by truck to get to the train and again to get them off. and most times several times after that to get to the retailer. and the higher cost of diesel and gasoline is what is pushing the ethanol production.
> 
> trains are a much more effecient way of moving large quantities long distances. but i cant think of a case where at some point the goods arent moved to and from a train by a truck. rail cars can offload corn at Purina for dog food. but that corn was taken to the elevator by truck, and the Pro Plan is moved more than once by truck until it reaches the retailer.


Alot of the ethenol is trucked, but we go to places where we shove in grain cars, take out ethenol cars, and remove the "mash" bi-product in rail cars, all next to the silos where they store the corn,right at the plant. Trucking is definately quicker, but the rail industry is booming right now.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i think we are talking about two different things. i'm talking about all products being trucked and some point(s) and diesel fuel being used to do it.

even the corn for ethanol is trucked from the field to the elevator. it may go by rail from the elevator to the ethanol plant. but at some point the finished product, ethanol has to be loaded onto tanker trucks to be moved to the gas stations. it's a physical impossibilty to move any raw matieral or finished product without loading it into a truck at least twice and usually more than that. with some very rare exceptions.

the increased use of rail is probably taking some of the demand off the use of diesel fuel as rail shipping is more effecient per ton/mile. but the real point is that ethanol production with it's demand for corn has driven grain prices way up. so, more land is going into production with a lot less being projected kept in the CRP program with provides gamebird habitat. and consumer prices of agricultural products; meat, milk etc are increasing very rapidly.

ethanol has opened a pandoras box, it only contributes a small amount to overall fuel supplies, but is likely to greatly decrease habitat and has already driven food prices much higher.


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## Ralph Smith (Apr 1, 2003)

I got ya. Also all the people going to corn burners are finding it a little more pricey also now than when they first come out.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

WILDCATWICK said:


> Any evidence such as research showing that the species numbers have declined over the midwest overall due to habitat loss? Again I'm not talking about local loss but overall regional or more specific mid-west especially when it comes to birds.


Sure - take a look at population numbers nationwide of Red-Shouldered Hawks vs. Red-Tailed Hawks and the habitat change that led to it.

"The red-shouldered hawk was once the most abundant hawk in eastern North America, but is now the least common. Current numbers are very low, but populations have remained relatively stable over the last decade or two. *The primary reason for the red-shouldered hawks precipitous decline over the last century was the loss and degradation of habitat.* As forests were cleared for agriculture, the availability of suitable breeding territories declined, and in the remaining forests the red-shouldered hawk was subject to increased competition from the great horned owl and the red-tailed hawk, which is now the most common hawk in many regions. Increased logging, especially the practice of high-grading (selectively cutting the largest trees) contributed further to the rapid decline of the species from the 1930s to the 1980s."

Management and Recovery Strategy of Red-shouldered Hawk in Aurora District, Natalie Helferty, Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources.

-- 
lp


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## Swamp Boss (Mar 14, 2003)

http://www.ducks.org/


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## Blackeagle (Jun 8, 2002)

I'll offer another good reason why you fellas are seeing so much cutting going on of fence lines.

EAB

I'll be cutting down dead ash out of fence lines here for the next several years. It's not that I want or intend to remove the fence lines entirely but you just can't tolerate dieing or dead trees that can then fall into the crop and cost you money.

I've got dozens of them that are dieing or dead. 

EAB = Emerald Ash Borer 

I'd like to know who the idiot was that brought that into our country. Those bugs are spreading fast to. Originally only in the greater Detroit area and Canada across from Detroit. Now they've spread into Ohio, Penn. Maryland, Ind. & Ill EAB is a heck of a pest. I read a few days ago that the bugs have now killed a estimated 30 million ash trees JUST IN MI! ! 

A coming repeat of the Chestnut blight, Dutch Elm disease & Butternut canker outbreaks. Now the Ash trees are going! When will our country demand tighter controls of invasive pests. 

I'll bet the price for a cord of firewood has gone down, or if not it will soon.


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## Ralph Smith (Apr 1, 2003)

Blackeagle said:


> I'll offer another good reason why you fellas are seeing so much cutting going on of fence lines.
> 
> EAB
> 
> ...



If they only eat ash, won't they starve to death eventually.:lol:


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## Peck (Feb 1, 2004)

The fence rows were I live in Saginaw county are disappearing like never before. I have never witness this much clearing. Crop prices are at all time high along with land cost ,fert, seed, spray and fuel. The high crop prices must be outweighing all the other increases. It will affect wildlife populations in my area.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Peck said:


> The fence rows were I live in Saginaw county are disappearing like never before. I have never witness this much clearing. Crop prices are at all time high along with land cost ,fert, seed, spray and fuel. The high crop prices must be outweighing all the other increases. It will affect wildlife populations in my area.


Without a doubt. 

As far as tree species, that's specious. Along US127 in Jxn County, you can see a fencerow that's being worked on that is nothing but mature osage orange, and that stuff is a SOB to rip out. As Peck identified, it's being driven by soaring corn/soybean/wheat prices. 
Over the last week, I observed fencerow destruction in Ingham, Livingston, Washtenaw, Lenawee, and Hillsdale counties. In farm country, about the only place you won't see it is in those intensively farmed areas where the fencerows were all taken out years ago.


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## grandblanc (Sep 19, 2005)

farmlegend said:


> Have you seen this lately?...No doubt this activity has been triggered by farmers eager to put every possible square foot of ground under cultivation to take advantage of sky-high corn/soybean/wheat prices that have resulted from the ethanol biz.


Forget ethanol! It's all China's fault. :yikes:
ABC's Primetime just had a special on this. In the past 15-months the price of Soybeans has more than doubled. And this is directly linked to China's increased demand for Soy. America is currently the world leader in Soy export. Not for long...Brazil will overtake us by the end of the year. American farmers are replacing Soybean crops with Corn for Bio-fules.


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## chevyjam2001 (Feb 14, 2002)

1.32 Billion people is alot of mouths to feed.


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## itchn2fish (Dec 15, 2005)

I have seen this also. This year I have purposefully widened all fencerows and borders and even made extra-wide passes away from all low-lying areas. With all the rain and ponding we had, I didn't lose much to drowning and the nesting waterfowl appreciated it also. Also our local watershed committee (Sand Creek) is promoting wider buffer areas next to lakes, ponds & streams, especially along Sand Creek, and planting of trees along the streams in open-unshaded stretches.


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