# Knight Disc-300 yards?



## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

A buddy and me have been shooting our muzzleloaders quite a bit lately. We hunt alot of open farm fields. Well, last season we had a dandy buck come out into field 300 yards away from my buddy's tower blind. We tried stalking, setting tree stands, ladder stands, but nothing worked. We decided to try our guns that far on paper during the offseason. Well, after a better part of a day I can say I'm shooting 4" groups at 250 and 300 yards! I zero'd the gun at 200 yards (6 1/2" high at 100) and use the bottom post on my reticle of my crosshairs at 250. At 300 yards, I get a 4" drop. I'm totally amazed how good this old Knight Disc can shoot. If "Bucky" comes out this season I'll be ready!


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

yes but what is the energy at that range of your load? also the wind drift as well! what bullet are you using and the velocity of it?


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Shooting a 44/300 XTP in 50 caliber. I don't know how much energy at those distances, I'm sure it's more than enough to take down a deer. My friend was shooting a 250 grain SST. He acually patterned very good at 200 yards, but it dropped off the table after that. He finally got on the paper at 250 and 300, but at 300yards the bullet was keystoning. He's going to try 300 grain SST's this weekend to see if it'll stabilize out that far.


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

It is just plain unethical to attempt to shoot any deer at ranges over 200 yards with "any" muzzleloader regardless of the load.

I have a Kodiak Magnum 50 cal. and it patterns 4 inches at 200 yds but still have more respect for a deer than to attempt any shot over that range. If a person can't get within 100 yds of a deer regardless of where they hunt they don't need to be hunting .


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

an interesting experiment, but i would chalk it up as "off-season" fun and practice. 

i'd seriously question whether you had sufficient energy at 300 yards.. sure, you could probably kill it if its hit well.. but at that distance, you'd better be planning for "bad hits". i doubt you'd have the necessary energy to overcome poor shot placement.

even beyond that - at what speed with those XTP's reliably expand? lead will expand at very slow speeds, but you've got a jacketed bullet there. nahh, i wouldn't risk it..


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Walleye....I have to disagree. With good accurate loads, the right powder combination etc, 200 yard+ shots are not at all out of the question. Ofcourse, not everybody has the ability, but some do. 300 yards is certainly pushing it with 300 grain XTPs but those heavy weights cary far more energy at longer distances than most realize. If it were me, I'd want to chronograph my load and run the specs through a balistic program to give me some general ideas though. Obviously, computer generated balistics are a guess at best for real world performance so that would have to be taken into consideration as well.


Heck, with the new Hornady shotgun slug, 250 yard shots are a real possibility with todays slug guns as long as your gun will group them and stabilize them at that distance. With my current set up, I wouldn't blink at a 150 yard shot oppurtunity. 

These shots are not for everybody...not even most, but to condemn them without the knowledge and info needed, is not necessary. 

Deputy, maybe you should show Wall-eye your .50cal Ultimate muzzloader and show him some serious long range figures!


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

yes, swamp, we've been here before.. not saying that its impossible or even unethical. i too would want much more testing than just getting a group on paper at 300. you've got to know speed and penetration abilities at that range. 

field and stream's article on bullets - while it contained a lot of fluff, did at least show cross sections of bullets and give readers some general guidelines. i did like the "target" used to retrieve spent bullets - layer of rubber, followed by plywood, followed by about 2-3 feet of wet newspaper. while shooting into a target like that wouldn't tell you how many foot-lbs its hitting with, it would show you how the bullet expands, and give you a relative idea of penetration when compared to a bullet shot at, say, 100-150 yards.

most guys don't go to the trouble, and don't need to.. i agree with a previous poster - on the farmland that i hunt, if i've done my job right, and i see a deer at 300 yards, more than likely i'm going to see him at 100 shortly.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Walleye, what would you consider the longest distance for a rifle? Last year I was shooting 1 gallon milk jugs a 500 yards with my 30-06 with a Hornady 165 grain Light Magnum round. I have pretty good faith in my shooting ability. If I feel I can make the shot cleanly, why shouldn't I take it. If I feel it's beyond my capabilities, I don't shoot. I turned down a shot at 525 yards last year because there was a strong cross wind.


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## mparks (Sep 4, 2001)

Whatever range you have been able to hit a paper plate 3 out of 3 should be ok for deer if you still pull 400 ft. pds of KE. I don't think I could tell the difference between 250 and 300 or dope a cross wind at that range. I've never attempted a shot past 100 so I'm sure not gonna waste powder and lead trying to get good enough to do it. 1 slug is worth a gallon of gas these days:lol:


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

There are probably only 10% of "hunters" that "ever" shoot their guns at ranges over 150 yards. There are even less than that that can accurately range a deer at ranges over 200 much less hit a deer at those ranges. Then trying to locate the area where they believe the deer was standing is another story.

I have shot 600 meter ranges with several different weapons but to attempt to shoot a deer at ranges over 250 yards with anything short of a magnum rifle is folly and a disservice to the animal. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not a muzzleloader is not an "effective 300 yd weapon". I have no doubt that there are people out there that can effectivly hit a target at 300 yds.with a front stuffer but the majority of hunters would certainly pass.

I have made 300 yard shots with an M16 when my life depended on it but those are not hunting situations and I wasn't using a front stuffer thank god.

All I can say is that for all that try the yotes will thank you...


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

wally-eye said:


> There are probably only 10% of "hunters" that "ever" shoot their guns at ranges over 150 yards. There are even less than that that can accurately range a deer at ranges over 200 much less hit a deer at those ranges. ..



I agree 100%

I don't agree about needing a magnum to make shots beyond 250 yards.....I believe just the opposite actually. Most folks would shoot a .270 far more accurately at ranges beyond 250 yards than they would say a .30 caliber magnum. And the .270 or other such cartridges are extremely capable of clean quick kills on deer long, long past 250 yards. 
Obviously, any shot at any extended range needs to be performed under ideal conditions......which most of us rarely find under field conditions. Most folks, me included cannot dope the wind enough to make those types of shots in anything other than a light, light breeze etc.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

wally-eye said:


> There are probably only 10% of "hunters" that "ever" shoot their guns at ranges over 150 yards. There are even less than that that can accurately range a deer at ranges over 200 much less hit a deer at those ranges. Then trying to locate the area where they believe the deer was standing is another story.
> 
> I have shot 600 meter ranges with several different weapons but to attempt to shoot a deer at ranges over 250 yards with anything short of a magnum rifle is folly and a disservice to the animal. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not a muzzleloader is not an "effective 300 yd weapon". I have no doubt that there are people out there that can effectivly hit a target at 300 yds.with a front stuffer but the majority of hunters would certainly pass.
> 
> ...


PDs are way smaller than a deer, and taking a precision shot to 760 [plus at PDs and killing them]yards a deer looks like a cadillac. If you cant make it, get out of the way, and let those of us that can do our job. As for magnums only over 250 is a joke and shows you know little of ballistics or hunting. Sorry for your short comings. A 270 or 30-06 is effective far beyond that.....as for a punny 223 making 300 yards funny you tossed that out and other non mags arent capable...........


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

I believe the topic was a Knight disc at 300 yards. Not what an 06 or any other weapon would shoot effectively. You can kill a deer at 150 yards with a 22 mag., yes I'm that old. 

I value your opinions and as you have yours mine is simple I feel 300 yards is not an efficient range for taking a deer with a muzzleloader, so please don't try to belittle me for having my opinion.


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## redneckdan (Dec 14, 2004)

personally, I don't have much faith in the foot pounds theory. If this theroy is true, then how does an arrow kill a deer? I assume by blood loss. Every arrow killed deer I've seen has run a long long way. Most people seem to be alright with this. why doesn't the same standard apply to guns? It doesn't matter how far the deer goes, all that matters is you follow the damn deer till you find it.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

redneckdan said:


> personally, I don't have much faith in the foot pounds theory. If this theroy is true, then how does an arrow kill a deer? I assume by blood loss. Every arrow killed deer I've seen has run a long long way. Most people seem to be alright with this. why doesn't the same standard apply to guns? It doesn't matter how far the deer goes, all that matters is you follow the damn deer till you find it.


That's a very good point. It almost seems like a double standard.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

Arrows kills by hemorage(bleeding out) now this is the question how do yo uplan to hold the gun still at ranges beyond 200ys? bipod well then you will be shooting prone or sitting, how about your wind drift! nov dec are a lot different than july and august! as well as temps and humidity! wind drif is hellin these months! of huntin6 at 300yds you can be off as much as 102 inches. ahooting off the bench at a target is one thing now do it under field condtions, cold windy wet, angles of the deer and wind and excitment the xtp has the bc of a block! at those ranges as well! and a lousy energy.
here is my load info for 300sst at 2350 with 4 pellets.
3.5 high 100yds at 300yds iam 15 low and holding 1430 in fte! wiht a better bullet and better bc and faster speeds! with a 10mph wind looking at 85 inches in lead! 
the knight with that load you are asking to wound deer! maybe get lucky and center punch it! and recover it!
you might get 600fpe at 300yds and about 15inches of lead for a nice day if i had your excat mv i can get the chart for yah but ill tell yah it is a long stretch for that gun! with the high end guess of velocity


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Deputy, I agree with you about weather conditions. There are many variables to take into account. I wouldn't take the shot unless I felt comfortable with wind, weather, fog on my scope, etc. Only under optimum circumstances would I consider it. I took a doe at 190 yards on the last day of muzzleloader last year and dropped her where she stood.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

190 is nice! remmeber the wind is your enemy and if yah got a scope thats fogging get rid of it! what scope and bases are you using now? you will be better off using target knobs and creeating a drop sheet and mark your turrets! to those yards mine is set for 400yds in 25yd increments! but iam changing stocks in a week so it is time to re do it all over again. will re zero for 350 this season. i have wind dope as well adj into the scopes and my sheet! it is a lot more than bench shooting i would swtch from the xtp asap and move to the sst or shockwaves! or dead centers


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

arrows kill by bleeding. bullets kill by destruction and shock. if you'd like, we can discuss the physics as to why a heavy arrow could out-penetrate, say, a 357 mag, although its been covered here before.

400 ft-lbs is not enough energy to reliably kill a deer. 800 is the standard minimum for firearms, while 45-50 ft-lbs with a bow will reliably kill a deer. 

you know, we get this discussion more and more often. many will argue that shot distances are dictated by the shooter, and for the most part, they are. but expecting a factory muzzle loader to reliably kill a deer at 300 yards is foolish.

killing deer is a game of odds and averages. intentionally handi-capping yourself in such a fashion shows little respect for the quarry. we're not talking about a .270 or a 30-06.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

Yah we can get in to all that bs and an arrow with a opening made by a head that is leading it will penertate more cause of its smaller diam than the lead cut too old news! i saw last year a woman shooter for another tv show in canada take a moose at 302yds with her omega and a 200 grain sst over 150 grains of t7 pellets dropping dead on the spot! she is a great shooter and shoots a ton of amo a year. is the gun cabable yes they are it is up to the shooter and his/her gear! if you practice a ton and shoot a lot and get it right everytime then great! but the key is practice. and to know your max effective range that you and your gear are up to par


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