# Unmarked Tip-ups



## Kidd17

CO informed me unmarked (name and address) tip-ups is a misdemeanor. Tried to find it in the fishing regs handbook with no luck. Is there any other hidden rules we should know? He let it slide but still seems pretty steep if it was ever enforced.


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## mcaram

Kidd17 said:


> CO informed me unmarked (name and address) tip-ups is a misdemeanor. Tried to find it in the fishing regs handbook with no luck. Is there any other hidden rules we should know? He let it slide but still seems pretty steep if it was ever enforced.


I looked it up in the past as I was curious. It's on page 10 of the current fishing guide under lawful methods, "Hook-and-Line Fishing: Fish taken must be hooked in the mouth. Fish not hooked in the mouth must be returned to the water immediately. No more than 3 lines per person (including tipups) nor more than 6 hooks or lures may be used. All hooks attached to an artificial bait or “night crawler harness” are counted as 1 hook (note: for crappie/perch rigs and umbrella rigs each hook is counted as part of total allowed). Hooks must be baited or attached to an artificial bait. Any number of hooks may be used on 1 line for taking smelt in recognized smelt waters (visit michigan.gov/fishing). *All tip-ups and other similar devices must be marked with the name and address of the owner in legible English, either directly on the object or securely fastened to it by a plate or tag. All lines must be under immediate control. *Hook and size regulations exist on certain streams (see Exceptions to General Regulations by County, pages 28-32)."


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## Kidd17

mcaram said:


> I looked it up in the past as I was curious. It's on page 10 of the current fishing guide under lawful methods, "Hook-and-Line Fishing: Fish taken must be hooked in the mouth. Fish not hooked in the mouth must be returned to the water immediately. No more than 3 lines per person (including tipups) nor more than 6 hooks or lures may be used. All hooks attached to an artificial bait or “night crawler harness” are counted as 1 hook (note: for crappie/perch rigs and umbrella rigs each hook is counted as part of total allowed). Hooks must be baited or attached to an artificial bait. Any number of hooks may be used on 1 line for taking smelt in recognized smelt waters (visit michigan.gov/fishing). *All tip-ups and other similar devices must be marked with the name and address of the owner in legible English, either directly on the object or securely fastened to it by a plate or tag. All lines must be under immediate control. *Hook and size regulations exist on certain streams (see Exceptions to General Regulations by County, pages 28-32)."


Well I overlooked that one.. thanks.


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## Fishsmith85

Yeah I was told by a CO a few years ago about that. It was something that never crossed my mind before.


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## jimbo

& that's the name of the owner, not user. 
So you can use somebody else's tip up, even if he's not there.
that's how I take it


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## Waif

Kidd17 said:


> Well I overlooked that one.. thanks.


If you have address labels ,you can clear tape over them above water if looking for a quick fix till finding a better one.


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## Kidd17

Waif said:


> If you have address labels ,you can clear tape over them above water if looking for a quick fix till finding a better one.


That's a good idea. CO mentioned marks are supposed to be on the flags. May either just write it on the flag or use your idea taped to flag.


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## RichP

Kidd17 said:


> That's a good idea. CO mentioned marks are supposed to be on the flags.


That might be his personal preference, but I don't think there's anything in the actual reg that gets that specific.


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## anon02032020

This had been the law for many years. I am surprised you didn't get a ticket and have them confiscated. You should have. Ignorance is not an excuse. Every year I am sure my info is rewritten on my tip ups.


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## tmitchell2889

matinc said:


> This had been the law for many years. I am surprised you didn't get a ticket and have them confiscated. You should have. Ignorance is not an excuse. Every year I am sure my info is rewritten on my tip ups.


I highly doubt you've never made an honest, innocent mistake before....


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## Radar420

Every time I've been checked by a CO they ask about tip ups being labeled.

I do like Waif suggested - address label with clear tape over the top. They usually last several years this way unless they get totally drenched.


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## toppm

Another easy way to get a ticket is being too far away from your tip ups. Like across the lake or in your house or car.


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## StumpJumper

Th


toppm said:


> Another easy way to get a ticket is being too far away from your tip ups. Like across the lake or in your house or car.


That' not true. I'e posted documentation from the DNR in here in the past. It is totally legal to sit in your car and watch tip-ups. There is also no set distance o n how far away they can be as long as you are able to get to them and are paying attention.


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## anon02032020

Hey Mitchell do you read the rule booklet when you buy a license. It's in there. Honest mistake maybe but still in the rules. Not true about the car as long as your in control. We park all the time and run tip ups. The co s never questioned that. Our Co would have wrote a ticket for no contact information. I even watched a co measure a Pike to the 1/4 inch.


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## feedinggrounds

I have seen COs trip a flag and look at his watch, for what that is worth.


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## toppm

A CO told me of I couldn't get to my tip up in a reasonable amount of time I could be ticketed. I know you can watch tip ups from your car, they can't be too far away.


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## RichP

toppm said:


> That' not true. I'e posted documentation from the DNR in here in the past. It is totally legal to sit in your car and watch tip-ups. There is also no set distance o n how far away they can be as long as you are able to get to them and are paying attention.


Just curious, what type of documentation do you mean? The actual wording of the regulation probably could be a little bit better. 'immediate control' is rather vague in the context of tip-ups. I think "totally legal" comes down to who can argue better to the magistrate (if the CO gave you a ticket).


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## RichP

feedinggrounds said:


> I have seen COs trip a flag and look at his watch, for what that is worth.


yep, I've had that happen to me a couple times....of course it's always when it's colder than usual and windy and you're in your shelter trying to keep warm while you're watching. :lol:


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## StumpJumper

I mean a written answer from a game warden


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## syonker

I screwed metal dog tags to my slammers with my address & phone number.

As far as being an immediate control of my slammers, I use these


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## BucksandDucks

Kidd17 said:


> CO informed me unmarked (name and address) tip-ups is a misdemeanor. Tried to find it in the fishing regs handbook with no luck. Is there any other hidden rules we should know? He let it slide but still seems pretty steep if it was ever enforced.


Any dnr violation is a misdemeanor or felony. They don't do civil infractions


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## Kidd17

BucksandDucks said:


> Any dnr violation is a misdemeanor or felony. They don't do civil infractions


Just kinda crazy that not having your tip up marked is along the same lines as assault, or drug related cases. Thanks for the info here guys, gotta read that regs book closer each year.


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## Stand By

I gotten a figure as long as you can see it and the flag, that would be reasonable. I figure out of sight would be unreasonable. Just my thoughts, never asked. I just write my name and address in marker on the upright. The flags are cloth and not conducive.


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## William H Bonney

matinc said:


> This had been the law for many years. I am surprised you didn't get a ticket and have them confiscated. You should have. Ignorance is not an excuse. Every year I am sure my info is rewritten on my tip ups.


This is why I always just pick some sore sap outta the local phone book and put their name on it, same thing with my treestands. :lol:


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## ibthetrout

William H Bonney said:


> This is why I always just pick some sore sap outta the local phone book and put their name on it, same thing with my treestands. :lol:


I put "William H Bonney, BFE, Michigan" on mine.


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## William H Bonney

ibthetrout said:


> I put "William H Bonney, BFE, Michigan" on mine.


:lol:


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## david boyko

or use an old fishing licsense


syonker said:


> I screwed metal dog tags to my slammers with my address & phone number.
> 
> As far as being an immediate control of my slammers, I use these
> View attachment 292177


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## mkroulik

Kidd17 said:


> Just kinda crazy that not having your tip up marked is along the same lines as assault, or drug related cases. Thanks for the info here guys, gotta read that regs book closer each year.


This was my thought. Seems pretty ridiculous that it isn't a civil infraction.

Mike


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## 7mmsendero

toppm said:


> Another easy way to get a ticket is being too far away from your tip ups. Like across the lake or in your house or car.


Or at the restaurant or bar.


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## MichMatt

Mark the old fashioned woodies with a simple sharpie. Mark them on the stem near the flag. 
Have had the woody ups nearly 30 years and with some TLC they still work real well.


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## coyote-hunter

The address label with clear packing tape works well in a pinch. I trap and have extra trappers tags which work awesome and last forever. I put them on all my gear (tree stands, shanty, rod bag, etc.) or in it. It will help an honest person return your gear, or handy in providing theft if your gear is stolen. You can get 50 of them for $15 at F&T. 

https://www.fntpost.com/Products/Trap+Tags/Copper+Trap+Tags+(Machine+Stamped)


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## scooter_trasher

feedinggrounds said:


> I have seen COs trip a flag and look at his watch, for what that is worth.


that could be construed as angler harassment, a simple wave of the hand would be sufficient, either your keeping an eye on it or your not. I don't continuously watch my tip ups , i rigged a cheap 3 dollar alarm to them and stay within ear-shod, many times with my back to one in my flip fishing, I may wind up with a ticket some day.


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## dead short

feedinggrounds said:


> I have seen COs trip a flag and look at his watch, for what that is worth.


That is true....


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## toppm

Got checked by a CO last night on Reeds Lake. He did ask if my tip ups were marked. They were. I asked about how far away or if I'm in the house, etc. And he said distance wasn't an issue as long as you could get to it in a reasonable amount of time. He said he'll trip a flag and give the person time to get on it. I have had different answers and seen different outcomes in different counties, lakes, and by different CO's. Best bet is to be alert.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## birdhntr

jimbo said:


> & that's the name of the owner, not user.
> So you can use somebody else's tip up, even if he's not there.
> that's how I take it


I have a friend who has buckets of tip ups and they have a friendly pike party every year.The Co's checked and every one had his name even though they were all set for the kids. They had to label them so they took post it's and used safety pins and rubber bands to attach them.CO was satisfied with that.


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## Quack Addict

I just fold an old hunting/fishing license over as the flag. It has all the info they want on it. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## maddiedog

If your like blittle you can just use your unused deer tags. All the info that they need.


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## Fishontippydam

Has anyone tried to contact the dnr thru the email provided on the dnr .gov site with questions like this? I have many times. Got a confirmation email saying


Thank you for contacting the DNR-Law Enforcement Division. Your e-mail will be directed to the appropriate staff person for response. If you need immediate assistance, please contact our office at 517-284-6000. Thank you

Only problem is I never get a staff person to respond.

Lots of MI law is unclear with no specifics. I wonder if this is by design so it's easier to bring up charges. Maybe because different districts have diff issues from one to the next so it can be interpreted locally to solve those issues.

Never the less. I keep these questions on record. Documented that I asked the question to the proper entity. This way I have it just in case. Because the question was asked, but never answered, at least I made an attempt for clarification thru the proper channels and documented. This documentation of "trying" will go a long way in a jury trial of peers.
Anyone else ever get a response, to an unclear question that has no specifics like this situation "What is a reasonable time/distance for tip up" ???


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## Downsea

Yep, don't take that tin foil off. I've emailed the DNR before and had an answer in a few days. The CO's can't sit in the office and look for emails everyday. And I'm pretty sure you had an Officer in this thread a while ago. There is a forum for fishing/hunting Law Questions on here that gets pretty good answers.


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## Fishontippydam

Downsea said:


> Yep, don't take that tin foil off. I've emailed the DNR before and had an answer in a few days. The CO's can't sit in the office and look for emails everyday. And I'm pretty sure you had an Officer in this thread a while ago. There is a forum for fishing/hunting Law Questions on here that gets pretty good answers.


Not sure if "forum opinion" would stand in court. Rather document via proper channels for legal documentation. Can't afford the misdemeanor. 

Been waiting over a few weeks with last question. No response as of yet. Maybe because there is no specifics defining the answer to the questions. 
I did request the answers before spring. So maybe they are still digging.


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## Downsea

Call 'em, I wouldn't wait 'till spring. CO's look in that forum and answer questions too.


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## Fishontippydam

Downsea said:


> Call 'em, I wouldn't wait 'till spring. CO's look in that forum and answer questions too.


Thanks for the info. The question I submitted a few weeks ago is not the only questions I submitted with no response. But again I feel confident, by asking for clarification with exact specifics, I'm safe. Just by asking the questions to the proper channel. Would be better with clarification especially from my local DNR law enforcers on how they will interpret/define the uncertain specifics. Doubt the prosecutor would ever allow it in court, due to the question being properly asked, even without a response. One nice thing about email. It' always documented.


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## dead short

Typically what you will get when asking any question on a law is a response with what the law says. A lot of times what people are looking for when asking that question is an interpretation based on a scenario. There are way too many scenarios for every situation to give an interpretation of the law, which is ultimately the job of the court anyway. An officers discretion is not unlike an interpretation but is more based on the totality of circumstances for a particular situation and not a general interpretation for all occasions. 

A tip up is considered a line and the statute says a line is to be held in the hand or under immediate control. The countless number of scenarios revolving around the "what if" situation style questions keeps the answer to what the law says. In practical application each situation would be judged on the totality of circumstances.

As to whether or not forum opinion will stand in court, you're probably safe in assuming it would not.


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## swampbuck

On my home lake, party fishing is common. (We tag turns on flags, regardless of ownership) our local C.O.'s don't have a problem with it. But if there is a violation, everyone gets a ticket. I think that's fair.

As far as distance....a long ways! 43" to the flag LOL









Sent from my XT1254 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## michael marrs

i had a buddy , who got ticketed years ago who had his tip ups, for himself and loaned tip ups for his friend, all with his name and info but was ticketed for not having his friend info on it. , and he told co, sounds like i am getting a ticket for not having a pencil. this one sort of surprised me. over the years i have collected maybe a dozen traps of different kinds all with my info on it, and have loaned them to people that i was fishing with


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## RichP

That's an interesting scenario. More often than not I'm out with my son and all 6 tipups we have scattered have just my name on them. It never really occurred to me until now that could be an issue, hmmm. I've been checked before but it's never come up.


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## mkroulik

michael marrs said:


> i had a buddy , who got ticketed years ago who had his tip ups, for himself and loaned tip ups for his friend, all with his name and info but was ticketed for not having his friend info on it. , and he told co, sounds like i am getting a ticket for not having a pencil. this one sort of surprised me. over the years i have collected maybe a dozen traps of different kinds all with my info on it, and have loaned them to people that i was fishing with


I would not have paid this ticket and would have fought it in court, assuming that the law was written as it is now. It does not state anything about having to have the current anglers name on it, it says the OWNER of the tip-up. 

Mike


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## ibthetrout

mkroulik said:


> I would not have paid this ticket and would have fought it in court, assuming that the law was written as it is now. It does not state anything about having to have the current anglers name on it, it says the OWNER of the tip-up.
> 
> Mike


Correct and it's been debated on here before.


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## dead short

I would say that the way the statute is written a person that borrows the tip up is not the owner of the tip up.


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## Scout 2

Is there a way you can prove ownership of a tipup. I use to use trap marking tags nd fastened them on with copper wire. Friends that I fished with had there own tags and many times we would just remove my tag and they put theirs on it. It seems to me this law was always kind of iffy if more than one was using someone elses tip up. But hey we were young then LOL


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## swampbuck

I think it's a pretty big gray area. I have also heard you better be able to point to the ones you are using.

Sent from my XT1254 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## dead short

swampbuck said:


> I think it's a pretty big gray area. I have also heard you better be able to point to the ones you are using.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


That's how I approached it. Ask which ones are you using, Count them, check for names, address any issues. If there were inconsistencies in names I would ask about it and document names in case things got left behind. 

It certainly isn't uncommon for people to fish with someone else and/or borrow equipment. A lot of times the officer has been watching tip ups anyway to see who has been tending them, if anyone.

Every scenario is different.


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## swampbuck

dead short said:


> That's how I approached it. Ask which ones are you using, Count them, check for names, address any issues. If there were inconsistencies in names I would ask about it and document names in case things got left behind.
> 
> It certainly isn't uncommon for people to fish with someone else and/or borrow equipment. A lot of times the officer has been watching tip ups anyway to see who has been tending them, if anyone.
> 
> Every scenario is different.


Curious, dead short. As I said earlier it is pretty common here, to party fish. Basically putting out the legal number for the group, and taking turns on the flags, knowing that if there was a violation everybody would get a ticket. Is that something that would normally be acceptable. 

Everyone complies with the possession limit and theirs are pulled if they limit out. And everyone gets the fish they landed.

Sent from my XT1254 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## unclecrash

scooter_trasher said:


> that could be construed as angler harassment, a simple wave of the hand would be sufficient, either your keeping an eye on it or your not. I don't continuously watch my tip ups , i rigged a cheap 3 dollar alarm to them and stay within ear-shod, many times with my back to one in my flip fishing, I may wind up with a ticket some day.


Im with you I sit in my shack let them soak for 15 to 30 minutes then run the line if there is two or three of us while diddling in the shack


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## unclecrash

mkroulik said:


> I would not have paid this ticket and would have fought it in court, assuming that the law was written as it is now. It does not state anything about having to have the current anglers name on it, it says the OWNER of the tip-up.
> 
> Mike


I would fight that too. Thats just silly , if your friend is right there and you tell the CO three are in his use and the guy says ya I have no gear so Im using my friends. I would be upset if he still handed a ticket out!


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## dead short

swampbuck said:


> Curious, dead short. As I said earlier it is pretty common here, to party fish. Basically putting out the legal number for the group, and taking turns on the flags, knowing that if there was a violation everybody would get a ticket. Is that something that would normally be acceptable.
> 
> Everyone complies with the possession limit and theirs are pulled if they limit out. And everyone gets the fish they landed.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


From my perspective.....

If there are three licensed (if required) anglers fishing, six tip ups out and everyone has one pole to me that is nine total for three anglers. As long as everything is on the up and up and no one goes over their legal limit of fish I personally would not push the issue. 

If I walked up to three people legally fishing on the beach with nine rods stuck in the sand, it doesn't really matter to me which pole belongs to which angler. If i check a boat with 6 lines out and two anglers legally fishing it doesn't matter who reels in which rod, only that no one goes over their limit. To me, what you're describing sounds like trolling and taking turns reeling in fish. I personally wouldn't push the issue unless I had been watching and observed some sort of violation that needed to be addressed.


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## swampbuck

Thank you. That is pretty much the same way it has been treated here. I think it really adds a lot of fun to the fishing trip.

Sent from my XT1254 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## ibthetrout

And maybe to add to what Deadshort is telling us, if there were 2 guys fishing 6 tipups, but he sees only one guy tending to all six tipups, then you have yourself a problem.


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## Fishontippydam

"From my perspective..." means alot. It means no matter what, in MI this could be legal, or it could not be legal. Just depends on the day and who approaches you. Maybe even how good or bad of a day the approacher is in. And if a ticket is issued, and you wish to show up and fight it, it also depends on how the prosecutor wishes to approach it. Then becomes the painstaken litigation of determining what the unclear language is. Also prob wouldn't hurt to select a jury which is competent in fishing technique. Which will be very very costly. Again this is by design. This is so the approacher can pick and choose. If it were more clear, then it would be more specific. Like Missouri DNR which have become very descriptive. I see incomplete amendments/updates to be a clear and blatant violation of my Liberty. Which I feel i sm entitled to rant about. After laying it all on the line three wars later. Not a big fan of MI law writters. They could certainly do a better job with our tax $$. Giving the approacher the advantage will never change. It's the appoachee who should have the advantage. With the choice to follow law, or disregard the law with consequence. Unfortunately even if u think u are following the law, there are major consequence trying to interpret that law, like a misdemeanor, court costs, legal rep ect. And the proof is obvious too. Questions like these are great questions to ask. If one submits a question like this thru the proper channel, you either don't get a response, OR u get what we have here today, "law enforcement individual perspective" which will certainly vary from individual and district. Very unfortunate. Guess all we can do spread awareness and hope it gets the traction it needs to change.


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## Crawfish

ibthetrout said:


> And maybe to add to what Deadshort is telling us, if there were 2 guys fishing 6 tipups, but he sees only one guy tending to all six tipups, then you have yourself a problem.


So my kids need to set their own tipups?


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## michael marrs

some of this seems rediculous ,and in the case of law, should not be gray. I would think , that in a given family one name would suffice, . When we go out, it is my buddy his wife, and 2 kids, would seem silly to individualize each trap, because generally, we let the kids do the catching


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## Rainman68

Crawfish said:


> So my kids need to set their own tipups?


You may get away with setting them up for your kids, but they better be the ones tending a flag up....


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## Flag Up

unclecrash said:


> Im with you I sit in my shack let them soak for 15 to 30 minutes then run the line if there is two or three of us while diddling in the shack


I don't think you should be diddling in your shack, or at least don't tell anyone! Lol!


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## unclecrash

Flag Up said:


> I don't think you should be diddling in your shack, or at least don't tell anyone! Lol!


why not I got windows in there and got my legal number of lines , so you trying to say I cant catch walleye and panfish at same time.
Not gonna sweat it. been ice fishing for over 20 years and never ever have had a run in with CO or ever seen one on the lakes I fish. If they want to come out after dark come on most are home with there loved ones!!


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## Flag Up

unclecrash said:


> why not I got windows in there and got my legal number of lines , so you trying to say I cant catch walleye and panfish at same time.
> Not gonna sweat it. been ice fishing for over 20 years and never ever have had a run in with CO or ever seen one on the lakes I fish. If they want to come out after dark come on most are home with there loved ones!!


I was teasing you Uncle Crash. A play on words for diddling.


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## unclecrash

Flag Up said:


> I was teasing you Uncle Crash. A play on words for diddling.


LOL got me!


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## Fishontippydam

Crawfish said:


> So my kids need to set their own tipups?


Again, the law clearly says "owner of tip-up" so if you own the tip-up it must have your name on it. If you tell the CO you are borrowing the tip-up, but attach your information on a tip-up that does not belong to, by language you committed a misdemeanor because it's not your tip-up and it must have the owners info on it. Therefore by language of the law, if you borrow a tip-up, it does not matter if your name is on it or not, as long as the owners name is on it. Guess it depends how the CO asks the question. If he asks "are any of these tip-ups yours" by law, no. If he asks "are you responsible for any of these tip-ups" say yes, but I'm borrowing therefore it has the owners info per written law. And if the officer charges you for not having your name, on a tip-up that is being borrowed, it's safe to assume that the officer out of ignorance for the law, just violated his/her oath and should be brought up on charges him/herself. Because as law enforcement will always tell you "there is no excuse for ignorance"


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## Fishontippydam

Also wouldn't have more than one individuals info on it. No where does it say "users" or "owners" or "multiple names/info". And if it does have multiple names/info on it, by language of the law, charges could easily brought up by the officer/local district court. Bottom line, best thing to do is to lie to the officer, remove the owners name of the borrowed tip-up, put your name/info on it and tell the officer you own the tip up. Only tend the tip ups with your name/info on it. Don't sit in your car while tip ups are out. Remove tip ups when you go back to shore to potty/warm up ect. Make sure tip ups are in plain sight, and close enough to see in any condition even if a snow squall reduces plain sight. Any deviation of this practice, by language of the law, may subject you to a misdemeanor. Law should say "user or operator" along with "responsible for" somewhere thrown in there too. But hey, thats asking lot.


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## Hart

I tip-up fish in the canal in front of my house, where they get set about 30 yards away.

I'd LOVE to debate the meaning of "under direct control" with a CO in any court of law if s/he wanted to cite me simply for failing to "control" them from the comfort of my home, because I can _guarantee_ you they don't write tickets for tip-ups set 30 yards outside a shanty in the middle of a lake.

Actually, my tip-ups are typically watched by multiple sets of eyes every constantly when we're "house fishing". I check them every several minutes if watching from a shanty out on the lake. 

As far as the name goes, if "owner" isn't defined in the regs (which I don't believe it is) then the name appearing on the tip-ups you're using better be your name or that of a personal acquaintance/friend's that loaned them to you, because you can get bet any CO worth his or her salt will make contact with that person to verify they own them, they know you, and are allowing you to use them. Believe me - they've heard every excuse under the sun. I expect you'd be able to avoid a ticket in that scenario based on the plain language of the law.

If you buy old, used tip-ups with some stranger's name on them and use them without replacing the old name with yours, that's where you'd run into problems. I use old woodies myself, and have written my name in Sharpie right on the wood on two of them, on the flad on another.


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## Fishontippydam

Hart said:


> I tip-up fish in the canal in front of my house, where they get set about 30 yards away.
> 
> I'd LOVE to debate the meaning of "under direct control" with a CO in any court of law if s/he wanted to cite me simply for failing to "control" them from the comfort of my home, because I can _guarantee_ you they don't write tickets for tip-ups set 30 yards outside a shanty in the middle of a lake.
> 
> Actually, my tip-ups are typically watched by multiple sets of eyes every constantly when we're "house fishing". I check them every several minutes if watching from a shanty out on the lake.
> 
> As far as the name goes, if "owner" isn't defined in the regs (which I don't believe it is) then the name appearing on the tip-ups you're using better be your name or that of a personal acquaintance/friend's that loaned them to you, because you can get bet any CO worth his or her salt will make contact with that person to verify they own them, they know you, and are allowing you to use them. Believe me - they've heard every excuse under the sun. I expect you'd be able to avoid a ticket in that scenario based on the plain language of the law.
> 
> If you buy old, used tip-ups with some stranger's name on them and use them without replacing the old name with yours, that's where you'd run into problems. I use old woodies myself, and have written my name in Sharpie right on the wood on two of them, on the flad on another.


Hart I believe u are confused. This is not civil infraction. It is a misdemeanor. Your first hearing the only time you will get a chance to speak is when asked to plead "guilty/not guilty/no contest" three options only. You choose. If you choose not guilty, the next chance you will get to speak is when the judge asks " do you have/need an attorney?" Two options "yes/no". At that point judge/court will sched a date to proceed. If you choose no attorney you will most likely never get a chance for your side of the story to come out. The only thing you can do is question the officer on the stand. And this won't be his first rodeo (evasion specialists) Maybe a good closing statement. But it won't be enough. You don't get to go back and forth and debate it. It's also difficult to ask yourself questions while on the stand right? And I doubt the prosecuting attorney will aid you with his/her questions. If you get an attorney, do you trust that attorney to ask the questions you want asked? Do you think an attorney will remember those questions? Do you think that attorney cares? In my experiences with attorneys, the most important things are left on the table unsaid. And I hear the same from other people's experience with attorneys, with similar criticism. And most will tell you, the attorney didn't do anything for me. My attorney is worthless ect. Maybe so. But did your attorney get paid regardless? You get it. Now if you are loaded, and prepared to appeal the decision which most likely will be guilty? And start all over in lansing? With your worthless attorney? All the travel, time spent, the stress of not being able to have your point heard by the jury in court? If you are prepared for all this, go for it. Hope you win. But I wouldn't bet on it. I think your best weapon would be (if encountered by law enforcement) is to first smile, welcome the officer while asking how his day is(address him as officer examp, hello officer, yes officer, they like being addressed by proper title). Butter him/her up, maybe the officer won't care because your a great guy with great people skills. Maybe the officer will tell you "from my perspective, your tip ups are not under direct control" play dumb and apologize, reassure it won't happen again and I bet you get off. Start debating it with the CO and you will prob receive a violation just for arguing. This is by design. Why the rule is so vague. So incomplete. It gives the officer the advantage to pick and choose. Also protects the officer. The officer can agree you are right OR the officer can say violation. Regardless the officer won't get into trouble due to lack of specifics within the legislation. Meanwhile you just spent enough $$ that I could live off of for years, without even getting to speak in court about how you perceive the law. And you can't just keep getting misdemeanors with the intent of paying each fine as you get them. It becomes repeated offences. Which is bad trust me. Not good. There is so so so much more that is left out. Just touched the key points. Not sure if all i said is accurate but I'm pretty sure this is "due process" Wish you luck. I would love to live on a lake, let alone have tip ups i could see from my home. If I could endure financially and deal with the stress of a worthless attorney, I would challenge at least once and maybe even appeal at state level, if I lived on a lake. I also like to stand up for what I believe. Mans greatest gift/possession/weapon is knowlege. Like any battle, prepare yourself well. Yet also Determine if it's a battle that can even be won, before charging in recklessly.


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## StumpJumper

Again.. it is not illegal to sit in your vehicle and watch your tip-ups.


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## Hart

Fishontippydam said:


> Hart I believe u are confused. This is not civil infraction. It is a misdemeanor. Your first hearing the only time you will get a chance to speak is when asked to plead "guilty/not guilty/no contest" three options only. You choose. If you choose not guilty, the next chance you will get to speak is when the judge asks " do you have/need an attorney?" Two options "yes/no". At that point judge/court will sched a date to proceed. If you choose no attorney you will most likely never get a chance for your side of the story to come out. The only thing you can do is question the officer on the stand. And this won't be his first rodeo (evasion specialists) Maybe a good closing statement. But it won't be enough. You don't get to go back and forth and debate it. It's also difficult to ask yourself questions while on the stand right? And I doubt the prosecuting attorney will aid you with his/her questions. If you get an attorney, do you trust that attorney to ask the questions you want asked? Do you think an attorney will remember those questions? Do you think that attorney cares? In my experiences with attorneys, the most important things are left on the table unsaid. And I hear the same from other people's experience with attorneys, with similar criticism. And most will tell you, the attorney didn't do anything for me. My attorney is worthless ect. Maybe so. But did your attorney get paid regardless? You get it. Now if you are loaded, and prepared to appeal the decision which most likely will be guilty? And start all over in lansing? With your worthless attorney? All the travel, time spent, the stress of not being able to have your point heard by the jury in court? If you are prepared for all this, go for it. Hope you win. But I wouldn't bet on it. I think your best weapon would be (if encountered by law enforcement) is to first smile, welcome the officer while asking how his day is(address him as officer examp, hello officer, yes officer, they like being addressed by proper title). Butter him/her up, maybe the officer won't care because your a great guy with great people skills. Maybe the officer will tell you "from my perspective, your tip ups are not under direct control" play dumb and apologize, reassure it won't happen again and I bet you get off. Start debating it with the CO and you will prob receive a violation just for arguing. This is by design. Why the rule is so vague. So incomplete. It gives the officer the advantage to pick and choose. Also protects the officer. The officer can agree you are right OR the officer can say violation. Regardless the officer won't get into trouble due to lack of specifics within the legislation. Meanwhile you just spent enough $$ that I could live off of for years, without even getting to speak in court about how you perceive the law. And you can't just keep getting misdemeanors with the intent of paying each fine as you get them. It becomes repeated offences. Which is bad trust me. Not good. There is so so so much more that is left out. Just touched the key points. Not sure if all i said is accurate but I'm pretty sure this is "due process" Wish you luck. I would love to live on a lake, let alone have tip ups i could see from my home. If I could endure financially and deal with the stress of a worthless attorney, I would challenge at least once and maybe even appeal at state level, if I lived on a lake. I also like to stand up for what I believe. Mans greatest gift/possession/weapon is knowlege. Like any battle, prepare yourself well. Yet also Determine if it's a battle that can even be won, before charging in recklessly.


I used to work for the DNR, then the DEQ administering various laws.
I'm not confused.
And I wouldn't need an attorney to make the argument. I know enough about legal arguments to do it myself.
I represented my daughter in a speeding ticket case in which she got cited for 29 mph over. I got it reduced to a zero-point charge.


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## Fishontippydam

Hart said:


> I used to work for the DNR, then the DEQ administering various laws.
> I'm not confused.
> And I wouldn't need an attorney to make the argument. I know enough about legal arguments to do it myself.
> I represented my daughter in a speeding ticket case in which she got cited for 29 mph over. I got it reduced to a zero-point charge.


Speeding is civil sir. Correct? Civil you do get a chance to say your side of story to judge without representation. From there judge makes his/her decision. If you dont like the decision you request a jury trial. Misdemeanor is different sir. You go strait to jury trial if a not guilty plead is your choice. Correct? I don't doubt you could represent someone well. No doubt at all. But how do you get your point across, if you can't ask yourself questions on the stand, if you don't have representation to ask those questions? So I must be confused.


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## ibthetrout

Fishontippydam said:


> Speeding is civil sir. Correct? Civil you do get a chance to say your side of story to judge without representation. From there judge makes his/her decision. If you dont like the decision you request a jury trial. Misdemeanor is different sir. You go strait to jury trial if a not guilty plead is your choice. Correct? I don't doubt you could represent someone well. No doubt at all. But how do you get your point across, if you can't ask yourself questions on the stand, if you don't have representation to ask those questions? So I must be confused.


And who's going to a jury trial over unmarked tipups? Richie Rich maybe, but 99% will pay the fine and get on with life. I always thought the law was pretty clear, owners name on the tipup and don't fish more than 3 lines. It's really not that difficult.


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## unclecrash

Wasting way to much time worrying about this stuff in here , Just go fish ! LOL


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## Hart

Fishontippydam said:


> Speeding is civil sir. Correct? Civil you do get a chance to say your side of story to judge without representation. From there judge makes his/her decision. If you dont like the decision you request a jury trial. Misdemeanor is different sir. You go strait to jury trial if a not guilty plead is your choice. Correct? I don't doubt you could represent someone well. No doubt at all. But how do you get your point across, if you can't ask yourself questions on the stand, if you don't have representation to ask those questions? So I must be confused.


Your constitutional right to due process means you ALWAYS get a chance to tell your side of the story when you've been charged with any violation of law, regardless of whether it's classified as a CI, a misdemeanor or a felony. This isn't Russia..................................._yet_.

You clearly can't ask yourself questions, so that's not part of the equation. In a jury trial, you'd make your case in your opening statement and closing argument. You'd build your case in between by asking the appropriate questions of the law enforcement officer on the stand. 
And as any first year law student will tell you: you don't ask _any_ question you don't already know the answer to.


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## Hart

ibthetrout said:


> And who's going to a jury trial over unmarked tipups? Richie Rich maybe, but 99% will pay the fine and get on with life. I always thought the law was pretty clear, owners name on the tipup and don't fish more than 3 lines. It's really not that difficult.


Is that a swastika on your forehead?


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## ibthetrout

Hart said:


> Is that a swastika on your forehead?


my avatar.......ah! I never noticed it does kind of look like that. Time for an updated pic for sure!


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## WALLEYE MIKE

I'm closing this thread.

The law was stated. CO gave his thoughts on use by multiple users. I see know reason to continue.


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## dead short

Hart said:


> I tip-up fish in the canal in front of my house, where they get set about 30 yards away.
> 
> I'd LOVE to debate the meaning of "under direct control" with a CO in any court of law if s/he wanted to cite me simply for failing to "control" them from the comfort of my home, because I can _guarantee_ you they don't write tickets for tip-ups set 30 yards outside a shanty in the middle of a lake.
> 
> Actually, my tip-ups are typically watched by multiple sets of eyes every constantly when we're "house fishing". I check them every several minutes if watching from a shanty out on the lake.
> 
> As far as the name goes, if "owner" isn't defined in the regs (which I don't believe it is) then the name appearing on the tip-ups you're using better be your name or that of a personal acquaintance/friend's that loaned them to you, because you can get bet any CO worth his or her salt will make contact with that person to verify they own them, they know you, and are allowing you to use them. Believe me - they've heard every excuse under the sun. I expect you'd be able to avoid a ticket in that scenario based on the plain language of the law.
> 
> If you buy old, used tip-ups with some stranger's name on them and use them without replacing the old name with yours, that's where you'd run into problems. I use old woodies myself, and have written my name in Sharpie right on the wood on two of them, on the flad on another.


I think you're pretty safe in your set up.


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