# Ice Shanty



## kdogger (Jan 10, 2005)

There is a lake in Oakland County that has no public access. As there are mulitple (hundreds, maybe a thousand) of owners surrounding the lake, it is not private. (Although there is no way for the public to access...you need permission from a landowner to access through thier property.)

The homeowner association has banned the use of "permament" shanty's. 

Any idea if this is their right to do?


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## TrailFndr (Feb 12, 2002)

Wow...this is a good question. Unfortunatly, I do not know the answer...that would take a CO or better to interpert. I'll wait to see what comes from this one, just for the curiosity of it.


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## RichP (Jan 13, 2003)

if you can determine that the lake meets the technical definition of a public lake sans public access (many threads on that issue in this forum to search on) then go put up your permanent, enjoy it, and tell them to get a life.

If it is truly private, you should still tell them to get a life  , but you might be out luck with the permanent.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Association rules have no authority as far as crimes. It is definitely a public lake but just being a public lake does not require public access. If someone were to give permission and you put one up I suspect the person who gave permission to cross the land would have problems with the association and you would likely never get permission again.


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## duckman#1 (Sep 22, 2002)

Mr. Boehr,
I don't exaclty follow what you said. To my knowledge, a lake association has no rights to supercede state fishing laws correct? Meaning, A ice shanty is a legal device used for fishing. If the landowner gives me permission to put a shanty out what recourse or power would a lake association have to stop the landowner from allowing it? ( as long as I access through his land). 
To me, this is a legal method of fishing and the fisherman has legal access to the lake. What am I missing here?
If they leave the shanty out and it sinks, then yes, now they are in trouble!
I have seen some associations "claim" they can control hunting and fishing, but just becasue they put it in writting doesn't make it law. Theres always other factors to be considered first.

I belong to a lake association and have seen them "try" to ban duck hunting, but when a DNR officer explained the repairen rights and the 450ft safe zone, the association quickly learned they went too far.


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## RichP (Jan 13, 2003)

duckman#1 said:


> What am I missing here?


The fact that homeowners associations can be very petty depending on who's in charge and their fragility of their egos. I think he's basically saying that if you go against their wishes they'll find some other way to make things difficult for the person letting you cross their property.


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## duckman#1 (Sep 22, 2002)

I agree with you on that. When a issue like this comes up, I would love to see a DNR officer show up at a association meeting and explain to them if their in the right or wrong. I would imagine it sure would save several phone call complaints that causes DNR to waste time to come out to the lake.

Better yet, if a association wants to try to include hunting and fishing restrictions in their by-laws, they should be forced to have the DNR sign off on it before it gets filed.
My assocaition wanted to ban all hunting because some of them didn't approve of ducking hunting. They had the mentallity that they could establish any laws they wanted on/around the lake. 
By no means am I defending all the fisherman and hunters, we all know theres those idiots that do break the laws and only encourage the assoc. to write by-laws, but I think for the most part, the assoc. just get carried way.

I'm sure Mr. Boehr has been on many calls over the years regarding association's hunting and fishing issues.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

RichP said:


> The fact that homeowners associations can be very petty depending on who's in charge and their fragility of their egos. I think he's basically saying that if you go against their wishes they'll find some other way to make things difficult for the person letting you cross their property.


Exactly



duckman#1 said:


> I would love to see a DNR officer show up at a association meeting and explain to them if their in the right or wrong. I would imagine it sure would save several phone call complaints that causes DNR to waste time to come out to the lake.


That would be a waste of the officers time. There is NOTHING that prevents a lake association from saying they don't want something going on in their association. They can have all the rules all they want but no LEO will even tell someone they can't do it because there is no "LAW" preventing it. I don't believe that any LEO would even show up on that type of a call (_notice I used the word call and not complaint because in my opinion complaint is something that is received when someone is breaking the law_)

Yes, I have had many calls and I told them right over the phone that I would not be sending an officer for someone not abidding their association rules.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

I don't live on a lake so I don't know much about lake associations operate. Is there dues and all that for them? How could they make it that difficult if someone allows access?


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Some have dues, some don't. A lot depends on how the association bylaws are written up but regardless the rules are not laws as far as civil infrations or misdemeanors or any other crime.

You don't have to live on a lake to have an association. There are asssociations with rules all over For example, on lytwo vehicles can be at your house at any one time or your garage door must stay closed always unless the inside of the garge is dry-walled and painted. You name it there is probably an association somewhere that has the rule.


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## kdogger (Jan 10, 2005)

> If someone were to give permission and you put one up I suspect the person who gave permission to cross the land would have problems with the association and you would likely never get permission again.


I didn't think about that! 

You're right, I'd get my access point home in trouble and they'd be pretty ticked at me!


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## duckman#1 (Sep 22, 2002)

In trouble? See this is where I disagree. I say talk with the land owner about this and see what he says. Maybe he could care less about those neighbors opinions! If hes not breaking state and local laws..the heck with the association! Keep in mind, I am only refering to fishing and hunting. NOT other by-laws such as building restrictions, etc. Thats a horse of a different color. 


You could always bring a portable shanty and not worry about it right?


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. Your right, if the landowner doesn't care then there is nothing to prevent it. Problem is, I doubt that you will find a landowner that doesn't care. Sometimes those association rules are part of a contract when a person buys a house, just like a condo where there are monthly charges for lawn maintence, all kinds of things. But hey, if the landowner doesn't care, he would know better than anyone else what his rules are and what the costs imposed by an association could be, if any, get permission and go for it.

Of course if no property owner gives permission and you try to go for it then there is a crime, called recreational trespass.


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## kdogger (Jan 10, 2005)

I also know that many associations put liens out against the sale of your property to encourage payment of unpaid fees and/or dues.


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## TrailFndr (Feb 12, 2002)

Rules of this nature, made by people that have no clue, are the number one reason I will never live within any "Association" for a neighborhood.

I figure that as long as I am following local ordenance, state law, and keep my property reasonably clean and neat then no one else should ever be able to tell me what to do with property that I own and pay taxes on..


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## shawnfire (Nov 5, 2005)

?'s it has alway been my understanding if there is no access thru the or to the lake it is a private lake..... My understanding is a public water way is ... if back in the old days logging was around and if they could float loggs to a certain destanation that is a public access??? ( this might be for rivers and creeks)??? and not for lake ??? so maybe I don't know what I am talking about????:yikes:


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

A private lake is one that is "fully" enclosed by one property owner. Because multiple property owners live around a lake makes it public because the surrounding property owners and their invited guests are still a members of the public and are able to fish or boat on any part of the lake they choose. Without a public access it only excludes part of the public. Also being a public lake a property owner doesn't pay taxes for that property under the water. On a private lake, owned by one property owner, the acreage of the lake is also included on that persons total acrage and subject to property taxes. Log floating test does have to do with rivers.


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## Sailor (Jan 2, 2002)

It's been my sad experience that if you do get a resident to go against the associations wishes and give you access you soon find your shanty trashed.


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## paulywood (Sep 2, 2005)

This is a little off topic but what if you entered a public lake with no access from a river. Is this legal? There is a lake in my area that has signs where the river empties into the lake that says you are trespassing. Also, if you gain access legally(ie. through someone's property with permission) can they legally kick you off? This lake also says that if you are ice fishing you need to have someone with you that has an access card or you are trespassing.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

If the river is navigable then there is a public access. If you gain access legally then they can not give you off. There is no state law that forces you to have someone else with you. This would pertain to 99% of lakes although I sure there are some with exceptions. For example there is a lake in Cass County that one person owned all the land around it. When his property was divided up and sold, he kept about a 3 foot strip that completely circled the lake thus making is a private lake subject to his rules in addition to state laws if you wanted to recreate on the lake.


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