# Shooting Fawns



## BackStrap (Sep 7, 2001)

For those who say it is horrible to shoot a fawn because it might be a button buck, think about this:

If you shoot a mature doe during the gun season it is more than likely already pregnant. If the doe is 2.5yrs+ she is probably carrying twins or maybe even triplets. Fawns are born at close to a 1 buck : 1 doe ratio. That means that you just killed THREE or more deer (but you can only eat one of them) - including a buck or two. Fawn doe are more apt to have just one fawn. Button bucks have no fawns AND it is thought by many that yearling bucks (1 1/2 yrs old) are pushed from their birthplace by their first rut to prevent inbreeding so you might not have a chance at that particular buck anyway (at least during gun season).

For the record, I don't intentionally shoot buttons. I just don't think it's the end of life if it happens.

I'm not trying to start a battle, just another way to view things.

Any thoughts?


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## Swamper (Apr 12, 2004)

Backstrap - good thoughts and ones we have debated and gone back and forth over at our camp. 

Our camp was discussing this subject, among several including waiting for the big buck. The argument that one should pass on the small bucks "since you can't eat horns" can be refuted by the point that "no matter how big the horns grow, you still cannot eat them". 

In the end, the debates of fawns vs mature does or small bucks vs bigger bucks - they all provide a lot of good deer camp discussion. Viewpoints and facts and statistics to support all of the perspectives.

Swamper


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## szokr1 (Feb 7, 2004)

Fawn's are easy to drag and they taste good!!!

Just my 2 cents....


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## Backwoods-Savage (Aug 28, 2005)

Well, if the herd needs thinning, then you shoot the older does that are known producers of twin fawns. If the herd does not need to be reduced, then I'd shot the fawns but do my level best to take a doe fawn rather than a buck fawn.

Have you ever noticed that very few ever shoot fawns, but lots of people shoot button bucks? It's still a fawn, even if he has buttons.


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## msb (Apr 25, 2005)

I dont feel bad about shooting a button buck this year. The one I shot was with others and was about 30 yards when I shot so there was no way to know it was a bb. Even if I had thought it was a bb I dont think it wouldve mattered. Three days down and only 1 more to go....time was running out. In the past I have passed on smaller deer and went home with nothing. Any other shot this year would not have a been a good clean kill and so I would not have shot at all.
Hunting public land is hard enough and I have learned to take out whatever gives you a clean shot.


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## PrtyMolusk (Aug 13, 2000)

Howdy-

What it boils down to is personal preference.

As long as it's within the letter of the law, do what thou whilt.

No one should make the decision for another, nor should any hunter feel guilty for taking a fawn, providing that is what they intended to do.


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## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

A few years ago I was at a buds place who proceeses deer. This fellow shot a six month old button buck. He got maybe 15 pounds of meat of it. The guy charged him 75$ to cut it up. So you figure they guys gas lodging time and other stuff thrown in he could have bougfht a lot more beef than what he got as venison. 

To me shooting a little deer is easy. All you got to do is place a baby bottle on the end of your rifle and pull the trigger :lol: J/k but figure it in what it cost for a few pounds of meat verus some beef you could have bought in the store. I'm off my soapbox now......m


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## safetreehunt (Oct 1, 2003)

In areas where there can be a fairly severe winter, it was recommended, in an article by John Ozoga (I think), that fawns should be taken instead of mature does. 

The reasoning is that mature does have a better possibility of making it through the winter, while the mortality rate for fawns is only about 10%. If you harvest a fawn, you are actually giving the mature deer a better chance of survival. Because the fawn would have eaten up a portion of the food that could have been used by the mature deer and the fawns chances of survival are already poor, the fawns should be culled from the herd to offer the mature deer a better chance of survival.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

szokr1 said:


> Fawn's are easy to drag and they taste good!!!
> 
> Just my 2 cents....



That is funny but true

AW


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## Due51 (Oct 26, 2005)

On the 2nd day of gun season I saw 3 fawns together that apparently lost their "mother" to hunters. They were completely alone without any other mature does following or in the vacinity. I had thought about taking one of them because I figured they weren't going to make it through the winter anyway so I was doing the herd/myself a favor. But I couldn't tell which was a button and which was a doe so I let them pass.

I'm with the previous "poster"- a mature doe is going to produce more fawns next spring and will be better fed over winter without competition from 3 fawns.

I'm interested to hear what the "right" thing to do is for a better herd.


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## MuskyDan (Dec 27, 2001)

Last year I was invited to a deer farm to help in the culling of the herd. In a 10 acre fenced in area with a 3 acre pond in the center of it we murderd 25 deer out of a 50 deer herd. It was the nastiest thing I have ever been involved in. Long story short many of these deer were young, and the fawns still had spots. We shot them!! The majority of the meat was donated to the church, however I was able to keep one of the spotted fawns. The meat in this thing was grayish colored. Needless to say it may have been the greatest eating I have ever experienced in my life.

I don't hunt fawns because of that eating experience, but I certainly don't see the problem in taking one to fill a legally bought doe tag.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Due51 said:


> .....
> I'm interested to hear what the "right" thing to do is for a better herd.


There is no one correct answer. I think we as hunters and conservationists should have some idea of the state of the deer herd we hunt and harvest accordingly. I believe that in areas like NE lower Michigan (primarily State land) with very low numbers of deer; doe and fawns should be spared and only bucks (1.5 year or older) should be harvested. In areas of high deer density like Southern Michigan and large sections of private land MANY doe should be taken. In these areas if you feel like shooting a 6 month old deer (and a few doe) while passing up younger bucks you will probably be benefitting the herd over all. 
Basically, we are responsible for the state of the deer herd we hunt. If we make the wrong decisions it is ultimately ourselves or our children that will pay the consequences. Study the herd and harvest accordingly and you are doing as much anyone could ask. In my opinion anyway. <----<<<


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## safetreehunt (Oct 1, 2003)

If you watch in the winter deer yards where a number of deer are competing for food, the mature does will lash out with some real fury at any other deer in the area. Fawns are usually last in the pecking order for whatever sustenance might be left over after the bigger deer eat.


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## huxIIIhammer (Feb 28, 2005)

I like those fawns that are still in velvet lol


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## stillwaiting (Oct 19, 2005)

okay, this may start something. A fellow hunter who has much more experience than me told me years and years ago that button bucks are the ones usually in the lead when walking, coming out of the woods, heading into bait piles and the doe fawns are usually second. So, over the years I have been practicing this practice, usually shooting the second one in line, which has ALWAYS turned out to be a doe.

Last year there was a spike coming up to the right of my blind and would have been a perfect shot, don't shoot spikes, and all of a sudden he veered the other way, he saw two other deer that I didn't see. Well, they're in the woods and I'm waiting for one of them to come in the clearing, so I shot the first one that came out -- turned out to be a button buck , made me sick to my stomach. The other one must have been a doe that the spike was after. 

Just my .02, and observations over the years.


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## Grizzly Adams (Oct 6, 2003)

Real manly hunters on here, shooting fawns ...


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

BackStrap said:


> If you shoot a mature doe during the gun season it is more than likely already pregnant. ...
> 
> 
> ....I'm not trying to start a battle, just another way to view things.
> ...


I agree with you concerning pregnant does. We could virtually eliminate this practice by having an exclusive four week antlerless hunt beginning the third Saturday in September. As long as our seasons are structured so that we are shooting the bulk of our does after November 15, we are going to be shooting pregnant does.


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## jimmyboy (Jan 10, 2002)

Spose the anti's and non-hunters will be thrilled to know how hunters are killing and eating fawns aka "button bucks"? I think not! NOT good for our image. Is that why the DNR calls them antlerless tags rather than doe/fawn tags? Granted,there are sound reasons for taking fawns in certain situations but is it socially helpful to do so?


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## halfcore (Nov 11, 2003)

msb said:


> I dont feel bad about shooting a button buck this year. The one I shot was with others and was about 30 yards when I shot so there was no way to know it was a bb. Even if I had thought it was a bb I dont think it wouldve mattered. Three days down and only 1 more to go....time was running out. In the past I have passed on smaller deer and went home with nothing. Any other shot this year would not have a been a good clean kill and so I would not have shot at all.
> Hunting public land is hard enough and I have learned to take out whatever gives you a clean shot.


Time off work (lost wages), Gas, lodging, food, license, booze, processing fees.......still costs more than beef at the store.

I still dont understand the insistance of having to "shoot something" which costs more than meat at the store by those who can only manage 4-5 days in the field during our 90 day hunting season? 

Is this a pride thing? the costs certainly dont justify it... why all of that for 15-20lbs of meat at such a high price....please explain?

And this "Hunting public land is hard enough and I have learned to take out whatever gives you a clean shot"....to me (in my opinion) is the death knell for deer hunting in MI...this mentality is already rotting our hunting opportunities for our and our childrens future...

sorry msb, not trying to single you out here, but I hear/read all this too many times.


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## bawplank (Dec 19, 2004)

I wonder of all the fawn shooters are they landowners or just 4-5 day hunters, if they were around all year maybe they could see the numbers going down. Who can tell how many deer there are from goning out during gun season? I farm and live where i hunt and almost have stopped gun hunting because of these people that think they can manage a herd. If you shoot fawns id just keep it to yourself and dont try to justify it. I can tell a button buck at 30 yards. A button buck is always a fawn no matter his size.


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## rwhuyck (Oct 20, 2002)

just wanted to add something to the shooting pregnant does idea. If you shoot a does in Sept. or Oct. or July for that matter it it still taking out it's offspring from the next year. If she manages to not run in front of a semi she will get bred in Nov.. So in my mind shooting a doe that is already bred is no different than shooting a doe that will soon be pregnant


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## jimmyboy (Jan 10, 2002)

A dose of sound logic,RWHUYCK


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2005)

Rwhuyck, Shooting a doe before she becomes pregnat is good solid deer management, shootring one after she becomes pregnant is the opposite. 

Here's a few points to consider R-----, Taking does in early September leaves all that uneaten forage for the remaining deer. Consider that a mid September taken doe versus one taken during the much later Muzzle season in mid December would save 6 lbs of forage times 90 days or 540 lbs of forage left to help the remaining deer survive the winter. This could be the differance of survuial for the remaining deer and especially so as we go north in Michgan. For a square mile in average areas of 21 deer per square mile make that three does or 1,620 lbs total. Let's say we took a total of 8 deer, (3 does, 4 bucks and one fawn) leaving 13. That 1,620 lbs of forage gives them 5 lbs of forage each, (deer eat less during the winter) or an additional 25 days of winter forage for the remaining deer. Now it looks like something to consider dosen't it?

How about just good deer management and improved hunter experiences. Taking does early leaves fewer of them to breed. That means the bucks need to compete for the fewer does, which means that the better bucks will do the bulk of the breeding, as it should be. It also means that the breeding takes place a bit earlier due to competition and all or most of the does will be bred in their first estrous., this is a very good thing. This results in a more timely and large birthing date in the same time perid and born right at the most lucious, nutritious and plentiful forage period possible.. This is also good against the prey animals, Wolf, bear, coyote, bobcat and yes, even fox, for they will be overwhelmed with prey,. This is called prey saturation, which is a means of improved deer survival.

The hunting experience improves for the competition encourages the buck to be active during the day versus bedding during the day and having plenty of does to choose from during the night, which by the way is the time when most breeding takes place. Calling and rattling starts to work. There's more to it but I think you should be getting the picture of the need for sound and scientific deer management, which most of you voted for in 1996. Well, you that are over 27 years of age.


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

Well said Ed!

Skinner 2


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## jimmyboy (Jan 10, 2002)

Good in-depth explanation Ed. Now it's time for the 'rest of the story' as to why it's not being implemented by MDNR.As you state,we voted for scientific management 9 years ago - Don't recall a decade of delay being a part of that initative, did we miss something?


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## trailsend (Feb 12, 2005)

"I still dont understand the insistance of having to "shoot something" which costs more than meat at the store by those who can only manage 4-5 days in the field during our 90 day hunting season? 

Is this a pride thing? the costs certainly dont justify it... why all of that for 15-20lbs of meat at such a high price....please explain?" IF your going to answer this, please do so in another thread, thanks


Well i don't shoot fawns or bb's(yet) only because my area does not need to but to answer your question. You can't buy venison in a store can you?


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## msb (Apr 25, 2005)

I haven't shot anything in the last 6 years because of moving around the state although I did have chances. Sorry i don't take iffy shots...
Unfortunely due to back surgery in Sept I was advised against going by my doctor so I didn't do the usual scouting trip and had to hunt within sight of my car. Now I'm the bad guy for shooting a bb. Sorry....No, it was a legal, clean kill and although I would rather shot something bigger, I don't feel it was wrong.
What you .............. private land hunters need to do is start hunting on public land for a few years. Do your scouting trips and pay all that money so that on opening morning you find .........down the road with their liquior bottles and sks's shooting at anything, and you dont see anything. Do it for a few years and I bet your opinion will change.


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