# Gems???????



## cruiseplanner1 (Aug 6, 2012)

DecoySlayer said:


> Want grouse? Try the "oak flats" WAY back in the middle of cedar swamps. The further back they are in, the harder they are do get to, the more grouse and woodcock you will find. Sure wish I could back in there again.


That is true Joe. Love those "islands"


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## Jr.BowmanMI (Jun 27, 2005)

I may not have read into your first comment well....but I completely understand where you are coming from and feel the same way. The pro talk was a play on words and it made sense to me (however I am a very simple reader lol). 

Everyone's enthusiasm and passion for this sport is great. I enjoy reading (again very simple reader) and this forum helps pass the time during this freaking miserable weather. 

Pro GEMS or not, posting honey holes or not, we love the sport and I cannot wait to pass it on. I think we can all agree on a few things....wishing dogs lived longer and we had not had our guns unloaded at that one time....or maybe shot a few more rounds of skeet in July.


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

So to continue my journey we went to the gem next to houghton lake to day at about 930 and man it was hot. The flora looks perfect for grouse habitat. We didn't flush any birds but I did hear two shots and another pair of hunters we spoke to said they flushed a woodcock. We did hunt our private land last night around 6pm when it started to cool of and flushed 6grouse. This is a solid lesson for me and others that "you can't beat the heat". My dog is pretty worn out and so are we. Our success rate seems low do to heat. Both gems were promising and I would recommend the to all... new and old hunters. Once again thanks for all the comments and good luck on your next hunt.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

cruiseplanner1 said:


> That is true Joe. Love those "islands"


They are pretty easy to spot on overhead imagery. They are often very difficult to get into. I used to hunt several when I was young and could get back into them. Limits on birds were common and I did not have a dog.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks birdhntr. I did take your earlier comment wrong. We actually have pretty close to same opinion on gems. I live in EUP and help out with 2 RGS chapters, we've done plantings with DNR on 4 gems in last year. The DNR has done a bunch more too. The 6 Gems within a couple hours of my place are about 24,000 acres. I like to hit some of them the first week and then again in December to see how they are doing and how our plantings are doing. Like you birdhntr I stay away during the main part of the season, not because there are no birds, but to give the opportunity for traveling and new hunters to use them. Thanks for your clarification.


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## Jr.BowmanMI (Jun 27, 2005)

As a younger Hunter and starting to "branch out" the GEMS are ideal for me. I am honestly not sure why there aren't more grouse hunters. One of the few game you don't have to spend a fortune on to be successful.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Jr.BowmanMI said:


> As a younger Hunter and starting to "branch out" the GEMS are ideal for me. I am honestly not sure why there aren't more grouse hunters. One of the few game you don't have to spend a fortune on to be successful.


The GEMS are perfect for a young person trying to up his game. And, older people that have limited mobility. Grouse however, are still restrained by population dynamics. We can't hyperbrood them like a Hun. So, as season progresses, and probably in an accelerated fashion for the popular GEMS, grouse move away from stimulus.


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## TimBuckTwo (Jan 3, 2009)

Jr.BowmanMI said:


> As a younger Hunter and starting to "branch out" the GEMS are ideal for me. I am honestly not sure why there aren't more grouse hunters. One of the few game you don't have to spend a fortune on to be successful.


Depends on how you look at it. If I price my grouse meat by the pound, Whole Foods has nothing on me.


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## Jr.BowmanMI (Jun 27, 2005)

Boots, 12 bore and 11 buck small game. 
Just like kids soccer... All what you WANT to spend.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Jr.BowmanMI said:


> Boots, 12 bore and 11 buck small game.
> Just like kids soccer... All what you WANT to spend.


That was how it was when I started bird hunting locally in north Oakland in the eighties. But if you don't have game outside your back door it may be different. I like to refer to it as the black hole!lol.Once your hooked you put everything into it progressively over time and it adds up quick.The cost of a dog and its care,guns,gas, travel expenses, new guns,remote collars,kennels,training birds,ammo,boots,vests,pants,out of state adventures, lodging, camping gear,campers,cabins,time off work,a vehicle that will accommodate what you do and suit your needs,more dogs,more vet bills and the list goes on and on.Lol.The only thing that doesn't go into that black hole is the memories and the guns usually don't lose a lot of value.As for the rest "poof" its gone.I wish it was affordable as when I started but I have no control over my addiction. Lol. I am beyond recovery.I easily spend 15% of my net income on my outdoor adventures. As I look back I would have to say this addiction of mine is easily past the 250,000 mark in my life.lo.lAnd as for the married guys I can only imagine what you spend on the trade off.lol.But to be honest I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

As soon as you start counting the money spent, or not earned, you are done.
Just another Walter Mitty sitting at home on the internet.

Budget for it. Generate pre-paid fuel cards all year long by doing without. Use them up by New Year's. Don't be ashamed to Allow yourself to live.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Gamekeeper said:


> Don't be ashamed to Allow yourself to live.


Yes, FAR too many of my hunting buddies are dead, and I am not that old, only 66. People better learn to live, to enjoy their lives a little. It's over WAY too soon. Money, is useless, until it is traded for something tangible. 

It's sick to spend only 5 to 10 days, out of 365, doing what you enjoy, and the other 355 to 360, wishing for a life.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

And worse yet, letting someone else decide your life to you (not for you).


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

That's exactly how I do it.I disappear for weeks at a time.My boss always says there might not be anymore when you get back.lol.I was looking for a job when I found this one!And if you don't bring me back then I will be able to hunt til January first.Then look for a job while I am ice fishing.so many people get bent over the rail so to speak with work even at my company or others But if you save your money and assert your independence they would not have that pull.So many people live check to check at my company and lead themselves into an indentured relationship to the point they can't say no to a single day or overtime and are fearful of consequences.Some work 60 to 80 plus all year and have no life,divorced,or just plain miserable.Not me I still manage a 100 days a year in the outdoors.Even my coworkers make comments like I wouldn't do that if I were you.My reply is your not me.This year I'm considering a month straight from October20 until thanksgiving as well as 3 day weekends from here on out.Then a week in Kansas depending on what reports I get from deer hunters on the birds there when they go in December.then that's another week before Christmas.I truly understand your statements guys.I have seen quite a few pass the past few years and all they did was work with the goal of doing it all when they retire.One was absolutely crazy over deer hunting and had all these plans and didn't hunt as much time as he should have.It was hard to drag him away from work to go but when he did he was so pumped up and happy,He absolutely glowed when out.I used to tell him tune it down a little bit the deer can see it.I feel like he never did what he was born to do.His first and last deer he had the same excitement.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

When you hit 50, there are waaay more seasons behind you than ahead of you.
Pack up, and head to a GEMS property. Even if you have company.


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## Jr.BowmanMI (Jun 27, 2005)

Thanks guys. 

You're really pushing me towards that new truck and 2 loader!!!


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## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

Jr.BowmanMI said:


> As a younger Hunter and starting to "branch out" the GEMS are ideal for me. I am honestly not sure why there aren't more grouse hunters. One of the few game you don't have to spend a fortune on to be successful.


You are experiencing a peak in the grouse cycle. The mark of a true grouse hunter is one that keeps it up during the valleys. Additionally, it takes a certain kind to subject themselves day after day, hour after hour, to the abuse we often get in the grouse cover, all for a fleeting glimpse and maybe a shot at a bird smaller than the average chicken. I've had more than one guy simply call it quits during a weekend hunt.


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

brdhntr said:


> You are experiencing a peak in the grouse cycle. The mark of a true grouse hunter is one that keeps it up during the valleys. Additionally, it takes a certain kind to subject themselves day after day, hour after hour, to the abuse we often get in the grouse cover, all for a fleeting glimpse and maybe a shot at a bird smaller than the average chicken. I've had more than one guy simply call it quits during a weekend hunt.


We haven't seen near as many grouse this year in the first two weekends as last year. Granted it has been much warmer, and we are hunting a certain cover with water, much earlier in the day that we may not otherwise hunt if it were cooler, as well we aren't able to put in the 5 to 6 miles we would normally put in each day. We are hoping we get to see the increased grouse numbers once things get back to normal temperature wise and we can hit different cover. Woodcock numbers have been solid so far, hopefully it keeps up.


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## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

NbyNW said:


> We haven't seen near as many grouse this year in the first two weekends as last year. Granted it has been much warmer, and we are hunting a certain cover with water, much earlier in the day that we may not otherwise hunt if it were cooler, as well we aren't able to put in the 5 to 6 miles we would normally put in each day. We are hoping we get to see the increased grouse numbers once things get back to normal temperature wise and we can hit different cover. Woodcock numbers have been solid so far, hopefully it keeps up.


Mine are up pretty considerably this year, despite the weather. I will say we sort of lucked into a bunch of grouse the opening weekend. I was working a cover that is really too old for good bird numbers, but holds sentimental value and has a good water source. The Brit in my avatar must have been looking out for us that day, because the area was full of birds. However, the mention of the peak was more rhetorical than meant to be taken literally. It is likely to drop a whole lot lower in a few years and that will separate the weekend warriors from the die hards.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

If we don't start getting a lot more deep, soft snow, the numbers will drop even more.


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## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

DecoySlayer said:


> If we don't start getting a lot more deep, soft snow, the numbers will drop even more.


As long as they keep cutting the aspen, it won't make a significant difference.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

NbyNW said:


> The issue I have with this is the damage to a bird population over hunting has.


I certainly respect the mindset behind this kind of concern; however, I think grouse have been known to be one of the few game animals that experts can find no meaningful positive correlation of hunting pressure to their population numbers. In fact, an argument could be made that quite the contrary could be true: if you look at it in the long run, getting new hunters involved in grouse hunting by finding ways to put them in the productive coverts--thereby reinforcing their interest in the pastime--it actually benefits Old Ruff by allowing more funds to be put to habitat management via license sales, funding solicitation for private grants of land to programs like GEMs, and, of course, last but not least, financial and active involvement in clubs like RGS and AWS. 

We should be more concerned about habitat loss than quibbling amongst ourselves about hunters finding good spots and hammering them. Rest assured, I'm not suggesting anybody go off sharing the locations of their favorite haunts, but I think we need not be concerned about folks learning about the GEMs or even finding good spots elsewhere on the interweb. 

Just my .02


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

Lamarsh said:


> I certainly respect the mindset behind this kind of concern; however, I think grouse have been known to be one of the few game animals that experts can find no meaningful positive correlation of hunting pressure to their population numbers. In fact, an argument could be made that quite the contrary could be true: if you look at it in the long run, getting new hunters involved in grouse hunting by finding ways to put them in the productive coverts--thereby reinforcing their interest in the pastime--it actually benefits Old Ruff by allowing more funds to be put to habitat management via license sales, funding solicitation for private grants of land to programs like GEMs, and, of course, last but not least, financial and active involvement in clubs like RGS and AWS.
> 
> We should be more concerned about habitat loss than quibbling amongst ourselves about hunters finding good spots and hammering them. Rest assured, I'm not suggesting anybody go off sharing the locations of their favorite haunts, but I think we need not be concerned about folks learning about the GEMs or even finding good spots elsewhere on the interweb.
> 
> Just my .02


You sound like a good sales agent for RGS or DU! I want to be clear again this is not in specificity about this or other gems, I have seen more so people are mentioning locations specifically, which leads to increase hunter pressure. 
In regards to hunter recruitment I understand your viewpoint and think there is some validity to it, but I view the discussion on hunter involvement as being pushed continuously by outdoor businesses and agencies that rely on this income for their prosperity. I have heard good arguments and points on both sides, it is of my opinion that as a whole we have little impact on the total bird population, but in smaller covers, hunters, and increased pressure can significantly impact the bird population. 
I am also less concerned about bird hunters with dogs as I am from road hunters and ground/tree hunters. Most hunters with dogs can only get so many birds, and there is much more involvement typically by these hunters. When spots get mentioned more road hunters and non flush hunters will congregate as well. Nothing wrong with their approach, I just have seen they are more concerned with the harvest, and typically bird hunters with dogs care more about the process and the harvest are just a small reward.
The one part of your statement I would disagree with is your last sentence, I actually do believe we need to concern ourselves with folks learning about cover via the internet, this tech age we are in greatly changes how we hunters plan and research our hobby. Good or bad, the growing tech availability for this sport is changing it gradually, and we should monitor the impact this has on different covers and hunter habits. I hope those in power are doing so and not just for their benefit, but the benefit of the sport and bird populations as a whole.


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## cruiseplanner1 (Aug 6, 2012)

> Good points by both of you. Maybe Lamarsh sounds like a "sales agent" for RGS or DU but he does sound informed about how it works. And I belong to both of those organizations and proud of what they do to give all of us opportunities to enjoy. Yes the internet has made it easy for many people to just go out there but there are many nice spots that most guys will never walk to. Just have to get back from the roads more now. Hope we get some cooler weather to get back in the game.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

NbyNW said:


> You sound like a good sales agent for RGS or DU! I want to be clear again this is not in specificity about this or other gems, I have seen more so people are mentioning locations specifically, which leads to increase hunter pressure.
> In regards to hunter recruitment I understand your viewpoint and think there is some validity to it, but I view the discussion on hunter involvement as being pushed continuously by outdoor businesses and agencies that rely on this income for their prosperity. I have heard good arguments and points on both sides, it is of my opinion that as a whole we have little impact on the total bird population, but in smaller covers, hunters, and increased pressure can significantly impact the bird population.
> I am also less concerned about bird hunters with dogs as I am from road hunters and ground/tree hunters. Most hunters with dogs can only get so many birds, and there is much more involvement typically by these hunters. When spots get mentioned more road hunters and non flush hunters will congregate as well. Nothing wrong with their approach, I just have seen they are more concerned with the harvest, and typically bird hunters with dogs care more about the process and the harvest are just a small reward.
> The one part of your statement I would disagree with is your last sentence, I actually do believe we need to concern ourselves with folks learning about cover via the internet, this tech age we are in greatly changes how we hunters plan and research our hobby. Good or bad, the growing tech availability for this sport is changing it gradually, and we should monitor the impact this has on different covers and hunter habits. I hope those in power are doing so and not just for their benefit, but the benefit of the sport and bird populations as a whole.


Unfortunately, your logic is flawed. Here's my question to you: you have X amount of grouse hunters in Michigan, let's call it 1,000 just for sake of illustration and simplicity. They disperse themselves across the state in some fashion as they hunt--some to the NLP, some to the UP, etc. Some go to the GEMs, some to state forest land, national forest, private land, and so on. How do you figure that any single hunter or group of hunters within the fixed number of the Michigan grouse hunting population shifting where they hunt from one spot to another adversely applies hunter pressure? 

Here's the answer: it doesn't. All it may affect is the pressure on certain coverts, perhaps yours? And you don't like that. So, your concern really is that you don't want folks hunting in the coverts you know about. You don't want folks learning about cover online with cover maps, or have the publication of info on GEMs, etc--not because you think it will adversely affect grouse as a whole, but really because you don't want other grouse hunters being successful in your coverts. I think that is silly.

The best way to solve your problem is to become wealthy and acquire 500+ acres and spend $100k on a big fat fence to keep others out.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Most grouse never see a gun.Alot of private land never gets hunted.My dads section is 1 sq mile cut up And in 20 years the only hunting for grouse was his 40 by me.Public land sustains grouse just like deer.They move in,and out


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

Lamarsh said:


> Unfortunately, your logic is flawed. Here's my question to you: you have X amount of grouse hunters in Michigan, let's call it 1,000 just for sake of illustration and simplicity. They disperse themselves across the state in some fashion as they hunt--some to the NLP, some to the UP, etc. Some go to the GEMs, some to state forest land, national forest, private land, and so on. How do you figure that any single hunter or group of hunters within the fixed number of the Michigan grouse hunting population shifting where they hunt from one spot to another adversely applies hunter pressure?
> 
> Here's the answer: it doesn't. All it may affect is the pressure on certain coverts, perhaps yours? And you don't like that. So, your concern really is that you don't want folks hunting in the coverts you know about. You don't want folks learning about cover online with cover maps, or have the publication of info on GEMs, etc--not because you think it will adversely affect grouse as a whole, but really because you don't want other grouse hunters being successful in your coverts. I think that is silly.
> 
> The best way to solve your problem is to become wealthy and acquire 500+ acres and spend $100k on a big fat fence to keep others out.


At last count I have 62 spots on my list of bird cover in my four county home area. That is not counting longer trips or the UP. Every year I try to add a few more I come across. 

If there is someone at a spot I am going to hunt I simply smile and wave and go on to the next spot. I keep a log of hunts so as to not overhunt one cover in a given year. 

Hunting pressure concerns me because I value the birds, their habitat and want it to continue for generations to come. I enjoy the dog work as much as anything else. I am sorry if you consider me selfish, or this makes me selfish, I do not intend to be, I am trying to do the best I can to help the birds, but maybe I will rethink some things.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

NbyNW said:


> At last count I have 62 spots on my list of bird cover in my four county home area. That is not counting longer trips or the UP. Every year I try to add a few more I come across.
> 
> If there is someone at a spot I am going to hunt I simply smile and wave and go on to the next spot. I keep a log of hunts so as to not overhunt one cover in a given year.
> 
> Hunting pressure concerns me because I value the birds, their habitat and want it to continue for generations to come. I enjoy the dog work as much as anything else. I am sorry if you consider me selfish, or this makes me selfish, I do not intend to be, I am trying to do the best I can to help the birds, but maybe I will rethink some things.


I don't think you're necessarily being selfish, I just think your thinking about it the wrong way, perhaps even backwards. For example, step back a second and think about it like this, if the DNR publishes info on the GEMs like they they do, and all the newbies and internet scouters gravitate towards the GEMs, that is just X number less newbies and internet scouts hunting your secret spots that _are not_ in or near the GEMs, because they're all in the GEMs! .... But when it comes to the GEMs themselves, they are what they are--public land that is essentially advertised as managed for grouse habitat. Expectations as to secrecy and solitude should not be high at the GEMs.


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