# Brown Trout



## Lightline (Jan 11, 2009)

I think a lot of us would agree that our area has potential for a Brown Trout Population, even though the DNR says lake Erie couldn't support another predator. Browns recieve a lot more competition in the other lakes, where they have to compete with Lakers and Salmon as well as all the usual suspects. I want to suggest that you all contact the head of fisheries and ask for Browns to be planted here on a trial basis, at least. The contact information is:

Kelley D. smith, Ph.D.
Chef
Fiisheries Division
Department os Natural Resources
517-373-3375
[email protected]

I know we would all love to catch Browns around here, so please write or call.


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## jguc1 (Jan 26, 2005)

The browns might do fine, maybe they're worried about hurting the walleye population?


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

I'm all for it!
Penn and Ohio combined dump in over a million rainbows and steelhead.
Why not toss in a 100,000 brownies for the Mich Fisherman!
FLat Rock in the Fall????? Might be the next Oak Orchard:tdo12:


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## wickedcarpenter (May 1, 2003)

But every Brown caught at Flat Rock would be put on a stringer and taken for its spawn. I'd rather hit the Oak.
Brent


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## GOTONE (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm for it


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## Clinch (Nov 30, 2008)

I wouldnt take a brown just for the eggs, eggs are a bonus, but i think eatin them is even better. And if the steel can survive, why couldnt a brown?


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## RippinLipp (Sep 12, 2008)

wickedcarpenter said:


> But every Brown caught at Flat Rock would be put on a stringer and taken for its spawn.


I know brown spawn is GOLD, but whats the different with all the steelhead that are caught and kept for the same thing. Now I will keep one hen for spawn and then let the others go in hopes they spawn, but no matter what, you'll always have more people that will keep anything they catch (hen or buck) A brown trout fishery in the Huron would be a good thing. considering the brown trout fishery in Lake Huron is poor at its best, compaired to years ago


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## TrapperPete (Mar 2, 2009)

I fish lake Erie by way of canada for the summer steelhead run every year. Browns are common but I have never caught one in the river here {flat rock }or heard of one caught. Not sure why.I'm sure those fish come from lake mich


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## Clinch (Nov 30, 2008)

I havent seen abrown in the huron in the 25 years I have fished it. Has anyone?


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## Lightline (Jan 11, 2009)

wickedcarpenter said:


> But every Brown caught at Flat Rock would be put on a stringer and taken for its spawn. I'd rather hit the Oak.
> Brent


Please don't refuse to do anything, because it might not work. Do people keep all the Browns at Oak Park, or Is it just the Flatrock mentality that you're worried about? How can it hurt to ask for a trial plant and see the results, rather than speculate?

I've never seen a Brown either Clinch, but I did see a guy catch a regular Rainbow once.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Lightline said:


> Please don't refuse to do anything, because it might not work. Do people keep all the Browns at Oak Park, or Is it just the Flatrock mentality that you're worried about? How can it hurt to ask for a trial plant and see the results, rather than speculate?
> 
> I've never seen a Brown either Clinch, but I did see a guy catch a regular Rainbow once.


Seeing browns are thermocline oriented they would get lost in Erie and more than likely never return, since their temperature range would be surpassed in the summer months. I remember studies done in the 80's made mention that they don't stray far from planting sites. They would just go deeper to find their comfort range. Something totally unavailable in the Western Basin, unlike steelhead that roam the lake


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## Lightline (Jan 11, 2009)

Would it be possible to change the name of this thread to "Stocking Browns in the Huron", so it gets more attention and input?


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## Huron River Dan (Apr 16, 2001)

They stocked Browns in the lower DR 4 or 5 years back. Had some good fishing in February below the Edison plant in Trenton. As far as Browns being caught in the Huron, yes I have heard of a few being taken. 

Dan


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## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

Seems to me that browns would also fare better in the Clinton than rainbows if stocked there.


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## Clinch (Nov 30, 2008)

Hey Dan, Any input on when and in what part of the river you have heard of browns being caught in the past. Your about the first person I have ever heard say they know of browns being pulled from the huron. Were they lake browns or native river browns? Now that I think about it, I did speak with a fly fisherman a few years back who was wading the huron in flat rock. He said down near the chute(an area down from the boat launch by telegraph) he caught a small native brown. I had no reason to not beleive him and he seemed to be an expeirienced knowlegable fisherman. So maybe the huron can hold browns? Anyone ever see small native browns?


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## Lightline (Jan 11, 2009)

I had no idea that they had stocked the Detroit River. I haven't fished there in years. I checked the DNR stocking report all the way back to 1990. It shows some plants of Rainbows and Browns, at the Yacht Club [wherever that is] in April and May of 1990 and 1991. There is no record of any plants since then. Why would they stock them and not put it on the record?


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## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

> Anyone ever see small native browns?


Only the ones you see after it rains real hard:lol:Sorry I couldnt resist.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

LOL @ Aaron

Say, what's that toilet in your backyard look like? :SHOCKED: Enough clarity to hit the pilings?


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## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

Shoeman said:


> LOL @ Aaron
> 
> Say, what's that toilet in your backyard look like? :SHOCKED: Enough clarity to hit the pilings?


Yeah wasnt bad yesterday when I was down by there only problem is I dont think the pilings are there anymore since the last flood we had.I`ll go by there tommorow and check the situation out and get back to you.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Thanks Bud 

It would make a nice combo trip


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

shametamer said:


> sheesh Ralf always pushing those non native fish..carp..browns..lol..but do any of those fresh caught browns show up in my freezer?..nooooooo, you be saving all the good stuff for yourself:evilsmile..too many places like that on huron...stockerfest another.with wall to wall people(exact reason i haven't fished below tippy in years)......but i would have to agree..many better places for stocking browns............................p.s. someday you'll have to show me your expertise on getting those cold water species from maceaday/lotus lakes


I hear ya, Shamey

I barely get the urge to fish for steel anymore. I hate crowds as well, then there's the politics... It just turns me off, but some guys are scared to fish alone and need to be with a thousand of their closest friends 

As long as these clowns don't start pushing some kind of QPM (quality panfish managment) I'll be just fine :lol:

Never fished Lotus or Maceday, but I bet it's a thermocline based fishery. Much like Cass Lake.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

I haven't been following this thread, and I have a question that isn't intended to hijack, but here goes. Has anyone here ever fished the upper reaches of the Clinton River near the outflow from Loon Lake? Just wondering as when I was a kid, we used to fish it all the time. At one point they used to plant some trout in there, but in looking at stocking data bases I can't see where they've planted any at least since 1979. Just curious.

On the subject at hand, I quess planting a fairly small number wouldn't hurt anything.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

1. Michigan has no Anodromous Fish.
2. There are no meaningful Smelt populations.
3. As stated, the Huron has little to no suitable River habitat, given a 
choice, most stray as indicated by returning numbers of Steelhead.
4. If the A.S.P.C.A. did an investigation, they may sue the State of 
Michigan for cruelty to Fish, Via planting them in the Huron.


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## Lightline (Jan 11, 2009)

I released a 9 lb male yesterday. If it makes it through the rest of the season and finds it's way back next year, someone might have a heck of a day, if they hook into it. I've released 3 good size fish in the last few days. That's my choice. LOL if you want. Even without successful spawning, those are 3 more fish that may grow to be real hogs. As far as the Huron being a gem----no it's not, but it's about all we have. It's easy to say travel if you want fish, but less and less people have the money to do so, in this economy. Consider yourself blessed if you can just take off and travel. When gas hits $5.00/gal, you may have all the fishing destinations to yourselves. 

There is a lot of boat trailer parking at Pt. Moullie and the public ramp at Jefferson Avenue, as well as other areas, for anyone that would want to troll for spring Browns and has the means to do so. However, I'm going to drop this whole thing, before someone else says they are not trying to bait me, then gives me an LOL. You people skiills could probably use a little improvement Shoeman. However, I'm glad to be a good source of amusement for you. We need more happiness in this sick world. God Bless you.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Lightline said:


> As far as the Huron being a gem----no it's not, but it's about all we have.


No it's not. We have thousands of miles of rivers and a good portion CAN sustain browns. Just because it's in reach of the most populous area doesn't mean it should be planted with a resource that only has a slim chance of returning, even if it's in your back yard. Prime example and perhaps something you may not be aware of, browns spawn in late fall/early winter. Even the brown trout in the Rifle only have a small window before it freezes up. They arrive right around mid-November and by December it starts making ice making it unfishable. But this being said, they have deep water access in Lake Huron and that allows some kind of off-shore fishery along the entire coast. And there is some natural reproduction. 






Lightline said:


> However, I'm going to drop this whole thing, before someone else says they are not trying to bait me, then gives me an LOL. You people skiills could probably use a little improvement Shoeman. However, I'm glad to be a good source of amusement for you. We need more happiness in this sick world. God Bless you.


I'm already blessed. Thanks! 
Seems you're extremely sensitive. Your Huron rant post revealed that. A few members tried to make you aware of the crowds that gather there during the height of the season and you mentioned that your were there by yourself. Yeah, it was raining like hell and the water was way up. In February! Still by yourself? 
You seem to live in some kind of denial. Obvious again in your "Floating the Little Manistee" thread. All the members discouraged you, but you bring up your skilled boatsmanship while fishing the Inlets on the Atlantic. LOL LOL

What did that have to do with floating the Little River? Some of the river isn't even wadeable with downfalls that need to climbed or walked around. 

My people skills? I don't beat around the bush. I laugh when I see humor. :lol:

Before you say that I'm picking on an old man with disabilities, just so you know, I'm old too and been crippled for over 30 years, but can still reason with only some limitations.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Ralf,

Quit crying about your maladies or I'll start taking up a collection for you and then I won't have time to go fishing.

Since I am always willing to help a fellow out, maybe you will help me out. I think we should try to get the DNR to plant tarpon in the Grand River. I mean they are one of the greatest fighters in the world. Another good reason is because they are big enough to eat all the suckers and carp and don't mind the warm water.

If you don't like that idea, perhaps we can get them to plant brook trout in the Rouge River as it is cold enough most of the year. I believe there are a few feeders there too. Anyway, I was just hoping you were a good sportsman and wanted to help a fellow out.

Since you mentioned the Little Manistee, yesterday when I looked out my window I saw a fresh steelhead bed with about 6 fish on it. Since it is the river the provides all the steelhead maybe we should lobby the DNR to close it to fishing for just property owners and their guests.

Not trying to highjack this thread, but I was just thinking. Amen!


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

:lol:


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

> Just remember that lake Browns are very wary and more of a challenge to catch than lake steelheads.


Actually, they're not. I've seen LRB's caught on perch rigs with dead minnows, I've seen them caught on 12lb with a dead minnow on a flat calm, bright day, I've seen them caught on 6" bodybaits trolled in shallow water on flat, bright days, I've seen them caught casting 8" stickbaits, ect-ect. They are about the same difficulty as steelhead, which goes by conditions and the fishes mood that day. The main difference as far as catch rates is there are less browns then steelhead overall, which makes them seem more difficult to catch. If the DNR planted browns in the same numbers they plant steelhead, there would be as many, if not more, caught then steelhead.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

> Since I am always willing to help a fellow out, maybe you will help me out. I think we should try to get the DNR to plant tarpon in the Grand River. I mean they are one of the greatest fighters in the world. Another good reason is because they are big enough to eat all the suckers and carp and don't mind the warm water.


Good luck Ray. I have been lobbying the DNR to control the carp population in the Flint River and it's assorted impoundments for years. They don't want to use rotenone, I suggested Bull Sharks, they scoffed. You would think after the bull shark in Matawan Creek they would see my point. Bulls have a voracious appetite and could do a great job controlling those over sized invasive minnows, while providing a great sport fishery.
Imagine it, the revitalization of Flint, now as a tourist destination to rival Key West. The DNR just doesn't get it.


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## jigworm (Jan 10, 2003)

ESOX said:


> Good luck Ray. I have been lobbying the DNR to control the carp population in the Flint River and it's assorted impoundments for years. They don't want to use rotenone, I suggested Bull Sharks, they scoffed. You would think after the bull shark in Matawan Creek they would see my point. Bulls have a voracious appetite and could do a great job controlling those over sized invasive minnows, while providing a great sport fishery.
> Imagine it, the revitalization of Flint, now as a tourist destination to rival Key West. The DNR just doesn't get it.


It could work, at least for one summer. From Wikepidia:

Bull sharks have occasionally been seen in the Mississippi River as far north as St. Louis[10]. Even more rare, due to cooler waters, bull sharks have made their way up the Illinois River and into Lake Michigan such as an encounter off the coast of Chicago, Illinois[11]. In that incident the shark was verified by U. of Illinois biologists as being a female 6 feet 9 inches and weighing over 300 lbs.


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## Lightline (Jan 11, 2009)

Shoeman, 

I guess you didn't read the part where I said I was going to follow all the good advice and not try to float the Little Manistee. 

I meant that the Huron is about all we have locally. I can't see how you missed that. There are also 13 miles of river, above Flatrock, with three Metro Parks and a lot of public access. I fish Huroc Park all the time. I was there yesterday. I see the crowds all the time. Most of them are fishing below the spillway. I usually always find a place to fish, when I go. Lately it's been a little tough and about impossible on the weekends, but I have a couple places up in the Metro Parks that I never see others fishing, so there's always an option available. I've never seen more than 2 or 3 other people fishing at Labo Park. Excuse me, but all of your LOLs and LMAOs are kinda LAME. Sorry to hear about your disability, but I wasn't about to bring mine up, Nice jump to a conclusion though--- a world class leap. There are other ways of dealing with disagreements than laughing in the other fellows face. Here goes another thread down the drain.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Lightline said:


> Shoeman,
> Here goes another thread down the drain.


Unfortunately that happens to a lot of useless threads. However Paul's bull shark contribution might have saved this thread especially since we now know they can survive in fresh water. Good thinking Paul!

Oh yeah I've been trying all morning to get a picture of the spawning steelhead, but since they just started spawing, they move on and off the bed. Anyone who knows however will recognize what this is.









Some fish are already done spawning so you guys who will be fishing the lower river should hit it just right. The river has been droping every day and now almost all the snow in the woods has melted so without rain anyone with a good eye should see the spawners.

Ralf, I want you to start setting a better example for the sake of all moderators and please don't abuse the :evil::lol: or :evilsmile. Thank you!


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## Steelplugger (Mar 8, 2006)

Very cool pic Splitshot, I love the "pothole", looks like they were working it pretty good... I also love the tea stain of that water....
I also agree that the shark story saved this thread, although I can't fault Lightline for trying to think positively, my feeling is if they are going to plant more of anything around here, please make it more steelies and walleyes .


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## Lightline (Jan 11, 2009)

BTW, Shoeman.

If I said I had the spillway or any other sopt to myself, at any time, then I had it to myself. There were a few days in January and a couple in February, where the temps, were warm enough for me. the river was frozen above the spillway, and nobody was fishing below it. There was one day when I sat up on the foot bridge with my 13 footer and center pin, playing a Hot'n'Tot back and forth across the river, below the spillway. Yes, it's illegal to fish from the bridge, but there wasn't anyone else around, except for a friend that hangs around the park and was talking with me. There was another day that was nice enough and I had the whole spillway to myself. There were a couple people that I know, that were out for walks and stopped by to talk to me. A nice older black guy that smokes a pipe and a fellow fishing club member, from the old days. I posted that I was suprised that no one was there and I caught a decent little Steelie on a spawn bag. That place is not always a madhouse. most of those guys are fair weather fishermen that show up in spring and fall, when they can snag a lot of rough fish and the weather is nice. during the first couple weeks of January there were only a handful of us fishing the park about every day and doing very well. Unfortunately, most of the other guys were doing better than me. Most people on the forum and around the area didn't even know the fish were hitting so well then. All the posts were saying, don't bother and there's nothing happening. That was just before the freeze up, when there was just some shelf ice to deal with. I go to that park 3 to 4 days a week, from September to the end of April. If I don't fish, I'll stop by on my way to or from somewhere else, just to see friends and have a look. What I'm trying to say here is, that you called me a liar, with absolutely no evidence. If we were using our real names, I could sue you for that and it surely has to be against the rules. I don't lie sir!!!!! I have to pray every night to be forgiven for the sins of the day and I try to keep them to a minimum. This ridiculous forum makes it hard enough to be a decent Christian. I've landed 3 nice fish, in the last few days, in the park. When I was playing them, no one was in my way. When I got the the 9 lb male on Firday, there were 2 of us in a spot that can handle 4 people. That was at about 2pm. It started crowding up at about 4pm, so I left. When I got there, at about 1pm, a friend of mine had that spot to himself and had a good fish on. He had to leave for work, right after he lost it though. When I hooked another decent fish, a couple days earlier, in the same spot, I yelled fish on and looked to my left [downstream], to see of folks were comlplying and there was no one there. There was no one for 50 feet to my right. The only other guy that was fishing that apot had hooked a fish also. It went over the spillway and he was downstream chasing it. There was no one there, I couldn't reach my net, and couldn't beach him. It was all concrete slabs. A nice Black Guy came running over from the footbridge to hand my net to me. That was on Monday, early afternoon. My third fish, an 8 lb male was caught in another spot, in the park. I had no one for 30 feet on my right and 100 feet on my left. I don't fish around the park on the weekends though. The main reason I fish it at all is a confidence factor. I know where every rock and stump are and where the fish hang there. I missed a couple days last week though and don't spend more than 2 to 3 hours there, usually. I'll be moving up to Lower Huron Park this week though, cause the spots I scouted out in summer should have plenty of fish now. I found some nice gravel areas. So, you see, I don't need anyone to tell me about the crowds and I'm not in denial. When you aren't even there to see it, you have no right to explain how it is to someone who's there all the time. You're the guy that said water temps don't matter if there fish present. Do you really think they are just as active when the water is 32 as opposed to 42 degrees? I guess I learned something new, cause I was sure that water temps. had a big influence on fish behavior. As a matter of fact I was silly enough to think that low water temps, were one of the reasons the fish weren't present last month. I let a lot of things go, cause I don't try to start arguments, but I can drag up past posts also.

My next point is an attempt to save your soul. When you get your humor from laughing at other people, that is bad. Jesus said to love your neighbor as youself. You wouldn't want others laughing at you, would you? Isn't there a golden rule like that? It reminds me of the guys in school that stand around the hall, talking about and laughing at the other students. It's really juvenile. It's also a sign of low self esteem. You feel good about yourself. by finding fault in others. Yet, you say you're blessed by God. you admit to being foul mouthed and probably not the type of guy I would enjoy fishing with. Do you really think God bestows his blessings on you when you are not following his commands to love your neighbor and to avoid bag language. "Bad character corrupts good morals". Thats' from the Bible too. He tells us to avoid foul mouthed people. You need to open your Bible and see what it really takes to receive God's Blessings, before it's too late. He says of his children: "I will bless those that bless thee and curse those that curse thee". So please don't curse me. Read my signature and ask yourself if you live that way. Still think you are blessed? You may have wordly things, but not blessings from God. I do wish them for you though.

Guys, I truley am sorry for going on like this and wouldn't have done it if this man hadn't called me a liar, with no evidence to support it and kept laughing at me. Any person can only take so much, before he defends himself. Besides, it's Sunday; a little talk about the Lord can't hurt.

I'm leaving the forum anyway. I would probably end up banned anyway, Time is short. Our country is headed for disaster. All great civilzations fall from within. I pray that you all get right with God. This forum is a flea on an Elephant compared to what's going on in this world and I can't be wasting my time, thinking about the attacks on myself anymore. Satan is using people here to create chaos and hate in a world that should be full of love, They don't know it though and aren't volunteering. He used Peter to try to get Jesus to avoid his fate of crucifiction and Peter wasn't aware of it. He roams the earth, like a hungry lion, looking for any that he can devour. no one is safe, even in this little forum. Call me insane or some kind of religious nut. The opinions of others are not what I need to be concerned about. All of the discples were murdered and the Apostle Paul was beaten, jailed, and suffered greatly at the hands of men because of these mens opinions of them. 

God Bless you all, from the bottom of my heart. Good bye.


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## All TIME ANGLER (Mar 14, 2008)




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## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

Man thats too bad that 2 site members have left in two days I guess some people are just too sensitive about what others say.


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## TheUrbanMustache (Sep 23, 2008)

Splitshot said:


> Since I am always willing to help a fellow out, maybe you will help me out. I think we should try to get the DNR to plant tarpon in the Grand River. I mean they are one of the greatest fighters in the world. Another good reason is because they are big enough to eat all the suckers and carp and don't mind the warm water.
> 
> If you don't like that idea, perhaps we can get them to plant brook trout in the Rouge River as it is cold enough most of the year. I believe there are a few feeders there too. Anyway, I was just hoping you were a good sportsman and wanted to help a fellow out.
> 
> Since you mentioned the Little Manistee, yesterday when I looked out my window I saw a fresh steelhead bed with about 6 fish on it. Since it is the river the provides all the steelhead maybe we should lobby the DNR to close it to fishing for just property owners and their guests.


i dont think the grand could handle anymore predatory species stricly based on forage.:lol:

also mis-spelling an unmentionable stream and placing it in the wrong forum is not allowed(i know there is a rouge on the east side).:lol:

well since we are on the subject of "lobbying"...ive sent a letter to the dnr to get a solid musky program going on the pine river. all those trout(forage) need something to keep them in line. i mean seriously all those invasive non-natural trout need to go, and musky?!?:lol: well musky are just the greatest thing since sliced bread, and ill bet they'll grow with all those "trophy" trout in there.:lol:

in regards to the lil manistee, i have about 1100 natural resource lobbyists willing to sign off on completely closing(even to property owners) that entire river just for fishery nursery purposes. which would be really great for the resource. id pay to put security cameras up along the entire river to ensure nobody is in there playin' "hockey".:lol: ill bet our president would go for it, being from the midwest and all.:chillin:

this sarcasm really got the ball rolling, and i needed a good laugh:lol:

mark


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## TheUrbanMustache (Sep 23, 2008)

stinger63 said:


> Man thats too bad that 2 site members have left in two days I guess some people are just too sensitive about what others say.


ray has that effect on people.


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

We'll it certainly doesn't look like Lake Erie is getting the browns. Check link for planting news. My back yard is in the mix again in regards to Brown trout. However, I wonder if dumping them much further upstream would have been more beneficial overall.



> Michigan's Department of Natural Resources dumped 64,000 year-old brown trout into the river, an attempt to strengthen the local fishery, said Jeff Braunscheidel, a fishery biologist for the DNR.


http://www.thetimesherald.com/article/20090331/NEWS01/903310316&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL


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## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

Yeah Dave its great to se that they are paying attention to our home river again over 100K browns in the St clair:woohoo1::woohoo1:


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## joel82fishman (Jan 25, 2008)

Wow, did this thread take a wrong turn and that's to bad because I am all for stocking more fish in our rivers and tring new things to improve our resources. As far as the Huron getting to crowded I was there yesterday and only seen a hand full of fisherman. The huron is just like any other river in Michigan and usually does not get very crowded until the weekend warriors come out. I have fished there for a few years now with little success and a trial run of browns would only mean more fish in the river for us to catch. I am not tring to offend anyone but to me more fish in the river = a better chance at catching one lol.


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## fish_skeered (Oct 12, 2006)

I believe the issue lays in the lake itself. Lake erie has a large population of predetors already between the perch, walleye, and steelhead. Adding yet another top predator would in turn lower the numbers of the others. Erie isnt a huge forage lake like some of the other Great lakes which do support browns in addition to everything else. Browns would naturally forage on perch and young walleyes and decrease the populations, as well as compete with everything for food and decrease them that way as well. Considering the huge commercial value of Erie for perch and walleye, i dont think its in the states' best interested to lower those populations. Not to mention that implimenting a stocking program to create a viable population would cost some serious coin. AND not to mention as well that it would have to be agreed upon by the Michigan, Ohio, and Canadian legislatures, which, since it would both cost money and decrease commercial revenue, isnt that awfully likely.


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## burbotman (Feb 20, 2001)

The Central and Eastern basins of Lake Erie have these predators too. They are in the deep waters of Erie. Yes, Lake Erie has enough predators already. There is also a few pike/muskie in there, too. I believe Erie cannot support any more predation that is already there.


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