# Muzzleloader Question



## MarineBuckHunter (Nov 19, 2007)

I've always been interested but never got into muzzleloaders... I'd like to buy one but don't know exactly what brand to buy... any tips or pointers would be appreciated. Thanks


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## Brandon7 (Jun 2, 2006)

I'm waiting for the replies on this one.. because I'm in the same situation.


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## walleyechaser (Jan 12, 2001)

You may want to start out with a budget range as there are many good MLs on the market today.
That would help get some responses.
You could start by looking up the info on the TC Encore and Omega,Remington Genesis and Knight Revolution as they are all good MLs and vary in price.


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## slowpoke (Jan 30, 2001)

walleyechaser said:


> You may want to start out with a budget range as there are many good MLs on the market today.
> That would help get some responses.
> You could start by looking up the info on the TC Encore and Omega,Remington Genesis and Knight Revolution as they are all good MLs and vary in price.



CVA makes a cheap but good ML. I have a Remington model 700 ML that handles like my 700 BDL 7mag. It shoots great also. I put a Leupold quick disconnect scope mound on it ( makes cleaning up easier when you can remove the scope ) with a 3 power Leupold 3 power, heavy cross hairs. 
Here is a start, 50 cal., handles 209 primers, in line.


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## walleyechaser (Jan 12, 2001)

I forgot to mention the CVA Optima as well.
I too have a 700 ML which is no longer made but its a tack driver.


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## ducwackor (May 29, 2007)

You can't go wrong with Thompson Center.

The encore is a top choice but expensive.

The Omega is a great gun, drop dead accurate, not so expensive.

The new "Triumph" is also a great choice.

Good luck.

I'd also recomend using "Triple 7" pellets. Superfast burning and not so dirty to clean.


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## rayed (Mar 10, 2003)

The is only one muzzelloader to buy if you want real quality and long range shooting 300-400 yds is not a problem with this gun. Buy a BP Express made by ultimate firearms out of Lansing. Here's there website ultimatefirearms.com I have been using this gun now for 5 years and wouldn't consider using anything else,my encore sits in the closet collecting dust.


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## kerby1 (Oct 17, 2006)

I agree with post by ducwacor, or however he spelled it. I would say that Thompson Center is the best. I am going to buy an encore before the start of next gun season, just started hunting in Saginaw County, which is shotgun zone. Prior to that I hunted in the rifle zone and made it out one or two days for muzzleloader, so I invested in a very inexpensive CVA model, the lowest end. I used this for the gun opener this year and harvested a nice 9 pt. With a low end gun they will use lower quality steel and a shorter barrel and what are acceptable tolerances for production will be larger on a cheaper gun. 

Also remember that I have always been told, right or wrong, that optics are potentially more important than the gun. Not sure if this holds true for muzzleloaders and the shorter shooting distances. 

Also, make sure to invest in a gun and do research on how easy they are to clean. Whatever model you buy, should be as simple as removing the breach plug, cleaning this and the barrel, and doing some minor cleaning of the gun itself. 

If you hunt in an area that you want to take 200 to 250 yard shots, definitly invest in a higher quality gun that can handle the magnum loads and take a look at some of the newer scopes that have reticles that allow you to have aiming points for the longer distances as well.


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## michbowhunter819 (Oct 15, 2007)

I love my savage m/l that shoots smokeless powder


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## walleyechaser (Jan 12, 2001)

Check your pms.


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## crazyc (Feb 24, 2005)

traditions deer hunter 50 cal just under 200.00 easy to clean
acurrate up 150 yard at 100 grains powder
killed my first deer today with it at 110 yards broke both front legs with exit hole using a 410 lead slug that enough punch for me


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## steelsetter (Dec 14, 2003)

For an off the rack modern musket, I think they are one of the best.


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## thunderman (Mar 10, 2005)

michbowhunter819 said:


> I love my savage m/l that shoots smokeless powder


i don't think it's legal to hunt with smokeless powder in your loader in michigan. besides didn't they recall those guns for barrel bursting at one time?


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

rayed said:


> The is only one muzzelloader to buy if you want real quality and long range shooting 300-400 yds is not a problem with this gun. Buy a BP Express made by ultimate firearms out of Lansing. Here's there website ultimatefirearms.com I have been using this gun now for 5 years and *wouldn't consider using anything else*,my encore sits in the closet collecting dust.


You could take the Encore out of the closet, dust if off and sell it to this hunter. Then he'd have a great rifle! Sounds like you don't want or need it


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

I did a *LOT* of homework before I bought my new muzzleloader. I don't think anypne doubts that TC makes the finest black powder rifles, and their Encore is THE best. That said, I just couldn't justify spending such big money on one when there are obviously other guns out there that are _high quality for MUCH less money_. I settled on a *CVA Optima*. It's really an Encore wannabe. It has all of the features I wanted, including a lifetime warranty. It was under $250.00. With that price I was then able to get a good scope, bullets, pellets, primers, cleaner, etc....all for less than just the Encore itself. Good luck shopping.


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

Whatever you decide.....
*BUY AMERICAN!! *


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

thunderman said:


> i don't think it's legal to hunt with smokeless powder in your loader in michigan. besides didn't they recall those guns for barrel bursting at one time?


- yes, you can hunt with smokeless powder in michigan - during the general firearms season. of course, the savage is very accurate shooting black powder subs as well, and one can use those during muzzleloading season.

- no, there was never a recall on those guns. the gentleman (toby bridges) that produced a KB with the savage 10 mlII was a disgruntled savage employee who departed on very poor terms. there's much speculation that it was blown intentionally, to use as blackmail against savage and the gun's inventor, henry ball. indeed, after he was terminated, bridges demanded $300,000 from savage and ball, who refused to pay. that's when he spread the story of the KB, and now he's paying the price with lawsuits from savage and ball. savage reviewed the gun and concluded that the KB was a result of a barrel obstruction that occurred 5" beyond the breech plug, and was not a result of the breech plug design, as bridges alleges.

- savage proofs all their barrels, and has tested them up to 128,000 psi. normal chamber pressure for published smokeless loads do not exceed 38,000 psi. savage never did get a barrel to blow even after testing with double charges and leaving the ramrod in the barrel. rest assured, its one of the SAFEST muzzleloaders on the market.

fyi, house bill 4554 seeks to legalize smokeless powder during muzzleloader season. there's a load of reasons why they should, very few, if any, why they shouldn't. but that's a subject for a different thread.


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## lumpy (Sep 3, 2004)

perca, I have an CVA optima and I would not say it is an encore wanna be:evil:. mine is a tackdriver. As with any gun you really need to find out that it likes to spit out. Most guys buy a gun based on name and then do the same with powder and projectiles. then expect the world out of the choices they made. Shot powerbelts and was over the board, went to the Hornady XTP and same result , shot the SST's and they were the ticket. Although it is rated at 150 grains of powder 100 grains worked best(plus my shoulder thanked me).
I would put my optima right up there with any other gun . I have a few friend that shoot t/c, Knight, etc.. and I can hold my own. 
ya just never know , I have a $50.00 CVA bobcat (picked it up just for fun) that at 50 yards it an incredible gun but I had to find the correct combination. My neighbor spent 8 times that amount on a sidelock and his is no better if not more inconsistent than mine.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

lumpy said:


> perca, I have an CVA optima and I would not say it is an encore wanna be:evil:. mine is a tackdriver. As with any gun you really need to find out that it likes to spit out. Most guys buy a gun based on name and then do the same with powder and projectiles. then expect the world out of the choices they made. Shot powerbelts and was over the board, went to the Hornady XTP and same result , shot the SST's and they were the ticket. Although it is rated at 150 grains of powder 100 grains worked best(plus my shoulder thanked me).
> I would put my optima right up there with any other gun . I have a few friend that shoot t/c, Knight, etc.. and I can hold my own.
> ya just never know , I have a $50.00 CVA bobcat (picked it up just for fun) that at 50 yards it an incredible gun but I had to find the correct combination. My neighbor spent 8 times that amount on a sidelock and his is no better if not more inconsistent than mine.


Excellent post, Lumpy. I have shown people over the years that the merits of a firearm are not confined to its monetary worth, but in the fact that it can or cannot hit what it is aimed at. I would much rather have the least expensive gun which is ACCURATE than the highest priced gun that looks nice but shoots no better than the cheapie. In fact, for a deer hunting firearm, I much prefer a gun which I do not have to baby-sit for fear of damaging the stock, steel, whatever. In other words, I'll take the accurate beater everytime over the high-end shiny so-so. One gun which comes to mind as an example, I have my great grandfather's Rem 171 in 35 Rem which is ugly as hell, but man does that thing deliver.


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

Hey Lumpy! You're making me mighty glad I bought this Optima. I intend to shoot the exact combination of bullets and pellets you have had such great success with. What do you use for optics on your Optima?


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## Landsend (Dec 22, 2006)

I picked up a CVA Kodiak earlier this year, and love it. If I'm not mistaken, my brother-in-law owns an optima and they are the break-open style, whereas the kodiak has the drop-block design. I will say this, he is dead on with his Optima! I'm still searching for the right combo on my Kodiak, but so far, triple 7 with Hornady SST's are working alright, nothing to right home about, but the problem may lie in the cheap scope I bought (which i'm replacing for Christmas----Thanks honey!). lol


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## Critter (Mar 3, 2006)

Don't forget to give the Knight line up a look. Green Mountain barrels are as good as it gets for a ML and thats all Knight uses. You can pick up Knights for the same money as a CVA if you shop around and you'll be buying American made. I have 2 Knights, a LK-93 and a Disc Elite, they are both great shooters.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

lumpy said:


> perca, I have an CVA optima and I would not say it is an encore wanna be:evil:. mine is a tackdriver. As with any gun you really need to find out that it likes to spit out. Most guys buy a gun based on name and then do the same with powder and projectiles. then expect the world out of the choices they made. Shot powerbelts and was over the board, went to the Hornady XTP and same result , shot the SST's and they were the ticket. Although it is rated at 150 grains of powder 100 grains worked best(plus my shoulder thanked me).
> I would put my optima right up there with any other gun . I have a few friend that shoot t/c, Knight, etc.. and I can hold my own.
> ya just never know , I have a $50.00 CVA bobcat (picked it up just for fun) that at 50 yards it an incredible gun but I had to find the correct combination. My neighbor spent 8 times that amount on a sidelock and his is no better if not more inconsistent than mine.



its more than how a gun shoots. TC, Knight, and Savage have outstanding customer service and warranties. All three companies make their own guns, they are not imported. and Savage proofs all their guns, with a pillar bedded action and a free floated barrel.. quality triggers, quality parts and finish, that will hold up for the duration.

i do not intend to knock cva's. but i've handled enough to know that its shortsighted to judge guns equal on accuracy alone.


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## lumpy (Sep 3, 2004)

RZDRMH- could not agree more about customer service..... but when i had a slight problem with that $50.00 bobcat I called CVA and they were very responsive and quick to send me a complete replacement hammer assembly, along with a hat and a box of their pre-lubed bullets (buffalo bullets). I was more than pleased. I do not knock the other manufactures at all , My point is don't buy based on name, Not CVA, or any of the others , buy on experience. That is what this forum provides for others and for me. First hand experiences. I love my savage arms rifles and will stick with them. It is like Matthews bows , they crank up the propaganda machine and advertise the hell out of the product and then pass the $ to us in higher costs. Is it a great bow - Yes, will I buy one , No. not my cup of tea.


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## lumpy (Sep 3, 2004)

Perca, 

I have a 3x9x42 sightron SII sitting atop the Optima, very happy with it.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

lumpy said:


> RZDRMH- could not agree more about customer service..... but when i had a slight problem with that $50.00 bobcat I called CVA and they were very responsive and quick to send me a complete replacement hammer assembly, along with a hat and a box of their pre-lubed bullets (buffalo bullets). I was more than pleased. I do not knock the other manufactures at all , My point is don't buy based on name, Not CVA, or any of the others , buy on experience. That is what this forum provides for others and for me. First hand experiences. I love my savage arms rifles and will stick with them. It is like Matthews bows , they crank up the propaganda machine and advertise the hell out of the product and then pass the $ to us in higher costs. Is it a great bow - Yes, will I buy one , No. not my cup of tea.


as a guy that doesn't always have much money to spend on outdoor equipment, and after years of learning the hard way, i've come to realize that, except for the rare exception, you get what you pay for. of course, different people have different expectations from their equipment, and that variable makes a big difference in satisfaction. i am not a fan of break action muzzleloaders, after owning an h&r huntsman.

i'm glad you're happy with your CVA - good look to you this muzzleloader season. i just hope i see some deer - been since october since i've seen a deer while hunting our property.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

lumpy said:


> Perca,
> 
> I have a 3x9x42 sightron SII sitting atop the Optima, very happy with it.


i'm reading many good things about that scope, hope to put one on my next rifle.

my savage has a 3-10x40 weaver grand slam, a line i've got a few of and have been exceptionally happy with. my omega has a 3-9x40 bushnell elite 3200.


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## lumpy (Sep 3, 2004)

RZDRMH- I carry a pair of Weaver grand slam Bino's , Awsome optics., Good luck to you and hope the GOOD LORD BLESSES you with a nice one.


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## Steve B. (Nov 22, 2004)

lumpy said:


> Although it is rated at 150 grains of powder 100 grains worked best(plus my shoulder thanked me).


Even though most modern in-lines are rated at 150 grains doesn't mean it's the best... in any gun.

Look at it this way. .50-cal ML with a sabot load shoot a .45-cal bullet. In the 1800's out on the plains, the Indians and our fore fathers shot Buffalo with .45-70's or equivalent. So what is similar between in-lines and the .45-70's? The .45-cal bullet. A .45-70 is broken down as such: A .45-cal bullet with 70-grains of powder. Just like a .45-90 is a .45-cal bullet with 90-grains of powder. The accuracy and power of these loads are very capable of 200 yard shots. There really is no reason to shoot beyond 100-grains of powder and really no need to shot a bullet heavier than 250-grains.

Through all the shooting I have done with my ML and the people I have crossed paths with regarding this subject, it always comes back around to 100-grains or a little less.

Some of my experiences and conversations with my elders and experienced shooters.


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## lumpy (Sep 3, 2004)

You are correct steve , besides a gun that has less than a 29" barrel (muzzleloader) will not utilize the full load anyway. on a 26" barrel About 30 grains will burn post ejection of the sabot , so the only thing you gain is a really nice muzzle blast
I do not believe this is the case for smokeless powder due to it being a hotter(faster) burning propellant.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

its not that smokeless is so much faster burning, its that smokeless burns much more efficiently. black powder and black powder subs leave up to 50% of the original charge weight as fouling in the barrel, whereas smokeless burns nearly the entire charge weight. that's why you can do more with less when using smokeless - my savage uses a charge of 44 grains of AA5744, while my omega uses a charge of 100 grains of 777. the muzzle velocity of both are within 150 fps of each other.

steve - i do find that 300 grain bullets seem to be the most accurate in my inlines, and it gets you a little better ballistic coefficient, which reduces the effects of wind. in terms of killing deer, however, i don't believe that 300 grains gives you much advantage over 250 grains.


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## Steve B. (Nov 22, 2004)

rzdrmh said:


> steve - i do find that 300 grain bullets seem to be the most accurate in my inlines, and it gets you a little better ballistic coefficient, which reduces the effects of wind.


What 300-grain MFG and type bullets are you shooting from your in-line?


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

i'm currently shooting hornady sst's, which are also packaged as thompson center shockwaves. my last 3 shot group at 200 was about 2.5".

the barnes xpb and tmz's have shot great as well - they are just so expensive. lead buffalo bullet ssb's shot very well, but i didn't care for the tendency to deflect inside the deer. i haven't tested the parker's yet, maybe next summer.

anything with a flat base - i've not found the boattails to fly very well out of my muzzleloaders. for example - the barnes spitfires. not really a need for a boattail on a muzzleloading bullet anyway..


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## Steve B. (Nov 22, 2004)

Very interesting.

I am considering trying the TC Shocwaves. A friend shoots them from his CVA Optima Pro and they perform very well.

However, I am confused by your statement:


rzdrmh said:


> the barnes xpb and tmz's have shot great as well - they are just so expensive.
> 
> anything with a flat base - i've not found the boattails to fly very well out of my muzzleloaders. for example - the barnes spitfires.


You are saying Boattails do not perform well from your muzzleloader, yet, the Barnes TMZ's shot great. Barnes TMZ's are Boattails.


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## steelhead007 (Nov 27, 2007)

i have a winchester apex 50 cal believe they were a cva gun like the kodiak.but for $200 it was a good buy i shot so many brand bullets hornady's,shockwaves regular and supergluides and others using 90 to 100 grs loose 777 and with no tight grouping to satisfy me i was bumming big time.i have heard so many bad things about powerbelts i didnt even consider them until i saw my brother shoot his cva with powerbelts at 100 yrds and said wow!! i went and bought the platium powerbelts 270 gr and loaded them up with 100grs of loose 777 and bingo 2 in grouping at 100 yards what a relief of course i dont know the performance they will have on deer but they are the only bullet that would fly straight out of this gun.like it has been said every gun is different hopefully you dont have to spend all the $$$ on bullets and powder like it did...good luck


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

Steve B. said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> I am considering trying the TC Shocwaves. A friend shoots them from his CVA Optima Pro and they perform very well.
> 
> ...


i'm sorry, i meant the expander mz's. i've not shot the tmz's, only the spitfires.

i have a box of the remington 300 grain .458's that i'm going to test over the summer as well, with the orange mmp sabot. i'd like to try the .458 barnes original as well. there's a school of thought that believes that the thinner the sabot wall is, the more accurate the bullet, since the sabot is the week point. the expanders, shockwaves, xtp's, xpb's, sst's, parkers, etc are all .451/.452" bullets.


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## Steve B. (Nov 22, 2004)

RZDRMH,

Have you reviewed the sabots from Harvester in Hopkinsville, Kentucky? I currently replaced all my Expander MZ sabots with their .50 cal ribbed sabots. I am shooting strong groups. I tried their sabots with Spit-Fire TMZ and horrible success. After thinking about it for a couple days why (I had similar weight bullets, 250-grain, with similar powder weight and utilizing the same sabot and ignition system) I went back and shot the Spit-Fire TMZ with the Barnes sabot. Everything was duplicate once again. This time I had great success. Dumbfounded, I looked further at the sabots. The Harvester sabots are for flat-based bullets. The Spit-Fire TMZ sabots are shaped to support the boat-tail bullet design. Very interesting research. So watch you sabot research. I'm gonna contact Harvester to see if they make a aftermarket ribbed sabot for boat-tail bullets.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

i hadn't thought of that - i've always used mmp sabots (they come supplied with mmp's) - never tried the harvester.

part of my preference for flat base bullets comes from rifle reloading, and part comes from the fact that i shoot smokeless from my savage muzzleloader.

i found less problems with boattails in my omega using 777. while the pressure generated by the smokeless powder in the savage is comparable to the load i'm using in the omega, the pressure curve is much more distinct. this can wreak havoc on the sabot, and the flat base seems to help preserve the sabot.

very interesting to say the least. keep us posted on your results, and whether you're successful in obtaining boattail sabots from harvester.


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## mhodnettjr (Jan 30, 2005)

I just went through this last year. I ended up with a TC omega and am very pleased with it. Good deals on these guns do exist. I looked hard at the remington genesis, I just couldnt get over the way the breach seals. Poor design in my mind. I know lots of guys that love the cva optima.

Mike


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

in my opinion, until other manufacturer's proof their guns with smokeless powder, there is no better choice than the savage 10mlII.


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