# Tribe pushes own hunting, fishing rules



## mrymar

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showpost.php?p=612149&postcount=6

If the Native American biologist is watching them and managing them, how does he not know how many salmon were speared in the river????????????? 



The Native Americans did not put these fish here. I pay double for my fishing licence so that the salmon plants can continue ($26 instead of $13 I believe). Why should they get to take them for free???????????????


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## WILDCATWICK

> Your opening statement sounds just like the war we are in right now. I really don't think that anyone is being pig headed about this thread .What I do think is just a differents of opinions, and that is why this is a great country,because we have the right to say what we believe in. I think laws were made to be changed,and I also think that everyone should have to follow the laws of the US today not the laws of 1836


I agree, it's just differneces with member here at MS. But my statment about pigheadedness is something I think is true of most Americans. Give me, give me, give me. We have become a nation that is unfair to others, we don't stand by our agreements, and we forget history.

I guesse when it comes to Native Americans (forgive the Pun) we could take the easy way out and become Indian givers. Don't forget this is a treaty agreement that has become law. It's not just a law. Maybe we should give Lusianna back to it's rightfull owner. 

I am playing the Devils advocate. But I do think the treaty should remain.



> The Native Americans did not put these fish here. I pay double for my fishing licence so that the salmon plants can continue ($26 instead of $13 I believe). Why should they get to take them for free???????????????


No they didn't pay for it. But back in the 1700's and into the 1800's did we pay anbody for wiping out the natives fish, bison, wappatti, etc. etc.
No we took what we wanted. We took the animals, we took their land, we took their way of living, their traditions have not struggled to endure. The one thing they have left is the treaty that put them in this posistion. I guesse I just have a hard time understanding how people feel it's right to be an "Indian giver" nation? 

Tribes do help with conservation too. They are not required to but they do it because they understand the importance. They are one of the few groups working with restoring Coaster Brooks in Lake Superior's Upper Penninsula tributaries. :xzicon_sm


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## mrymar

WILDCATWICK said:


> Tribes do help with conservation too.


Like spearing a bunch of spawning salmon in the rivers?


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## SR-Mechead

Good morning Wildcatwick you made a statement that they only took what they needed . My question then is what about all the Gill nets that were put out and not just a limit but tons and I mean tons of fish were netted . So when you say the white man is greedy I would have to say that its a two way street. I can remember when I fished the St Marys river it was fun to catch the 3 to 5lb walleyes ,and be able to throw a red and white dare devil and say do we want this nothern or let him go. Then they started putting the gill nets out and anything bigger than 3 inches in diameter was dead meat. That wasn't the bad part,but when a storm came up and they couldn't get there nets out all the fish rotted. So I do have some hard felling about the so called treaty of 1836.


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## WILDCATWICK

People aren't perfect. We all know how a few bad apples can ruin it for all. But go back thru history and look who has the better track record with conservasion of species. If you still disagree I'd love to here why.

How about all the buffalo we shot. We took their horns and fur and left the meat to rot. We did this until we wiped out the population. How about all those nice old pictures of people hunting in the U.P. and taking out sleds and sleds of deer. Track records speak for themselves.


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## SR-Mechead

You are right about the sleds of deer in the UP, you don't see that anymore because the laws have changed. Now they still have the go ahead and set gill nets on the lakes and rivers, they also have the right to go out and hunt land without a license. They pay NO taxes. They do not have to pay to have CO's on the road to protect the laws. Now don't you think that they are stealing from all the sportsmen and women who helps fund the fishing and hunting in Mich. And guess what I don't think that any of us were around in 1836 or our parents or grand parents. So I think that I'm getting raped,and no one is doing anything about it yet.


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## Ogre

Do you people really believe that the Indian has nothing but altruistic values and motives? If you really believe that then I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you. The reason that the Indians are being pro active today is that the finally have enough money to hire the best lawyers. The casinos are really paying off. Do you really believe that wanton killing of buffalo warrants their present rush to eliminate the fishery and their unlimited killing of our big game? Your argument is that two wrongs make a right. If you believe that the Indian's conservation values are so tightly ingrained into their value system then explain to me why they trap the river mouths. Explain to me why when prohibited from trapping the bays that they line the outside of the bay with nets skirting the prohibition. Yes, I too remember Iron Eyes Cody shedding a tear for pollution but the Michigan Indian's would rather net the fish at their breeding source knowing that monies from license fees will replenish the fish stock. Do you know that we still have college tuition plans for the needy Indians and that tax payers dollars buys their nets.


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## WILDCATWICK

> Do you really believe that wanton killing of buffalo warrants their present rush to eliminate the fishery and their unlimited killing of our big game? Your argument is that two wrongs make a right.


Never said two wrongs make a right. I guesse I also didn't realize that Native Americans are trying to elimante our fishery and big game? :sad: I think you must have that wrong. 

All I'm going to say is that Native Americans had their way of life taken away. Granted it was a long time ago. But still in the late 1900's and probably still today they are the poorest race in America. It's my opinion that the main reason that is, is because of the history of Anglo saxons and their dealing with Native Americans. So IMO I think they should get retubution. This is it. They have land. They don't have to pay taxes. Small price for us to pay considering the price we made them pay.


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## 7MM Magnum

I don't know about being the POOREST in the nation,.... They ALL (with a proven 1/4 blood heritage) get a piece of the action that their tribes casinos take in every year !! 

I personally know 5 or 6 American Indian families who collect one of these checks every year,...and they are not made out for just a few bucks!! :SHOCKED: (no pun intended) They certainly would make for a *VERY* nice Christmas to say the least not to mention maybe a new car.


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## WILDCATWICK

> The median native household income is $20,025 as compared to a national average of $30,056. Native Americans have a 65.5% graduation rate from high school as compared to the national average of 75.2%. Also, 3.1% of Native Americans hold a graduate or professional degree as compared to the national average of 7.2%.


 Taken from:http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/data/usnatamchro.htm

These stats were from 1990. I can't find any updated numbers. But I think it's a fair representation of what I'm talking about. Not every Native American tribe owns a casino. Not all get "cuts". In the same link I found this:


> An Idaho Native American tribe, the Shoshone-Bannock, file a petition to grant the sockeye salmon on the Snake River in Idaho status as an endangered species.


It took Native Americans to conserve on one of americas most famous rivers.

Well I'll get off the soap box before someone kicks it out from under me  
But to those that "Hate" the treaty. What do you suggest is done? Do you think that we have done enough considering what we have done to them?


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## SR-Mechead

WILDCATWICK said:


> Taken from:.
> Well I'll get off the soap box b...erything free.I lived in Mich for 59 yrs. :)


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## WILDCATWICK

Oops, I did find info off the updated census:
Recession hits poverty and income levels 
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 2002 

American Indians and Alaska Natives suffer from the highest poverty rates in the nation, the Census Bureau reported on Tuesday. 

Based on three-year average, nearly one-quarter of all Native Americans lived below the poverty level. The rate was more than two times the national average (11.7 percent), according to Census figures. 

But Native Americans were the only group to have seen a drop in poverty. While rates for whites (7.8 percent), Hispanics (21.4 percent), Asians (10.2 percent) and African-Americans (22.7 percent) were at record lows, they all saw increases from 2000 to 2001. 

A related trend emerged for income levels in the United States. Median household income dropped 2.2 percent nationwide, with white, Hispanic, Asian and African-American families all seeing statistically significant declines. 

Asian income, for example, dropped 6.4 percent from 2000 to 2001 -- a loss of $3,678 -- the Census Bureau reported. 

On the other hand, the three-year average for Native Americans failed to change much. The median income was $32,116, still far below the national average of $42,228 and trailing most racial and ethnic groups -- except for African-Americans at $29,870. 

The rise in poverty and drop in income, the first in nearly a decade, was tied to the advent of a recession in the economy. "Like the increase in poverty, the decline in real median household income between 2000 and 2001 coincided with the recession that started in March 2001," said Daniel Weinberg, chief of the Census Bureau's Housing and Household Economic Statistics Division. 

Indian Country was largely shielded from the changes -- mostly due to less than complete statistics. The Census Bureau uses averages and cautions against multi-year comparisons based on data limitations. 

Reservations and Indian communities still remain mired in poverty, federal officials acknowledge. The Bureau of Indian Affairs last week held an economic development summit aimed at combating high rates of poverty, unemployment and other poor conditions. 

"It is unconscionable to have islands of poverty in a nation enjoying great prosperity," Assistant Secretary Neal McCaleb said. 

Yesterday's statistics came in two reports: "Poverty in the United States: 2001" and "Money Income in the United States: 2001." They were based on a supplemental survey conducted by the Census Bureau. 

Nationwide, the Census Bureau said there were 800,000 American Indians and Alaska Natives living below the poverty level. The "threshold" for a family of four in 2001 was $18,104 in annual income; compared with $14,128 for a family of three; $11,569 for a family of two; and $9,039 for unrelated individuals.

There are also many websites that show conservation of Natives. Once again there are always some bad apples. But their heritage preaches to use everything that kill. Does ours? Do a web search if you want to know different initiatives that they are involved in.


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## SR-Mechead

Wildcatwick you seem to know a awful lot about the Indians ,by any chance I,m I having this disscussion with someone who is 1/4 or more Native american,or someone who has done a lot of digging.


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## aborgman

SR-Mechead said:


> Ok its my turn again .I,m one who does not like the treaty of 1836,but I like what is being written in this thread. I say we have laws in the US that we all have to follow.(Example speed limits) Everyone has to follow them or pay the price.


 That treaty you're complaining about is one of those "laws in the US that we all have to follow."



SR-Mechead said:


> Its only fair, they get everything free.I lived in Mich for 59 yrs.


 No they don't get everything free. They paid - bigtime. That treaty is like a mortgage. The government got their property and they're still paying on that mortgage. Is the bank getting money for free every month when I send in my house payment?


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## Ogre

I really get tired of arguments of the type being presented. If the rate of unemployment is high on reservation lands then move. If the poverty level is high for Indians then why is the argument being made that it is my problem or why is that argument used to rationalize why Indians have the right to exceed reasonable wildlife management quotas. The same type of logic could be used to say that because I broke my toe I can shoot you. There is no logical link to the arguments. There is poverty in the area that I use to live in. These people were poor not because of education or opportunity but because there was no local opportunity and they refused to move. The Lord helps those that help themselves. It someone chooses a way of life ignoring opportunity then they need to look into the mirror for help. 

It was said that "Idaho Native American tribe, the Shoshone-Bannock, file a petition to grant the sockeye salmon on the Snake River in Idaho status as an endangered species." This is wonderful but so what. This is again misdirection from the topic. Iron Eyes Cody shedding a tear regarding pollution on Earth was wonderful but so what. When I see the native boats pull up unloading case after case of fish taken from gill nets then the salmon issue now has a Michigan context and becomes relevant. The 1836 treaty dealt with fish species native at that time. Salmon were not native at the time of treaty and I believe the Consent decree deals with this issue by stating something to the affect of what can be a targeted fish. Not for one minute have I seen Indian gill netters throwing back dead salmon nor for that matter any non native fish. Ask the recreational Lake Trout fishermen in the UP about Lake Trout availability after Indian over fishing. It's one thing to seek treaty rights, and there are arguments yet to be made on this subject, but it's another issue to be wanton slaughters of wildlife and the two are being equated as one and has a right. The Michigan Indians in my opinion are simply pushing for a right to thumb their noses at scientific wildlife management practices. Observe their commercial fishing practices if you don't believe me. I am not here to debate the 1836 treaty and I do feel that the Michigan NRC has clearly demonstrated political motivation in their wildlife management practices but there needs to be a middle ground between satisfying no one and wanting everything: two wrongs don't make a right. I know that the Indian communities have hunting and fishing regulations/limits. I would ask three things: will the Indian community provide us with hearing/trial minutes and proof of individuals being and meeting punishments? Is there any scientific backing or rational behind the tribal wildlife regulations? Do the Michigan tribes have restocking and rearing programs for wildlife?


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## WILDCATWICK

> Wildcatwick you seem to know a awful lot about the Indians ,by any chance I'm I having this disscussion with someone who is 1/4 or more Native american,or someone who has done a lot of digging.


No. I have no Native American blood. I lived in the U.P. for 7 years and I knew numerous Natives that I talked to often on issues such as this. I also go to Canada often and see how they get treated by their government as well. It's not just a U.S. problem. The "First Nations", as they're called in Canada, have many of the same economic problems. It may even be worse in Canada. The First Nations are still fighting just to keep lands that were given to them in treatys. Many times the government decides that the land has value to the government and they try to take land back. After many debates on this issue, I have concluded that we owe them what we agreed to. No I wasn't alive, I wish we didn't owe anything, I get made like some of you sometimes, but if I was in their shoes I would feel the same exact way they do. Life is not always easy. We have to do what is right, not what is easiest and most convient to us. Which as Americans, we are doing more and more.

There were alot of treaties signed by Native Americans in 1832. How many of you that silike them have gone back and read them? The best land in the U.S. was handed over to the government. What choice did they have? They either do it or be forced off. Many of the agreements are simialar just differnt areas. If any of you decide to look at the treaties...note how the Natives signed it. They all signed with an X. They didn't know how to read and write. They were told what they would have to do and they did it. 
With the way things are now with our governemnts and courts, I'm sure that the Natives would not agree to the terms that were set forth. 

The Natives have several advantages that we don't have. Casinos, no taxes, grants (there are many grants that they can't get either thu), and self governing. The self governing thing is really a joke tese days. They are more or less just like any township. It's seems that they still have to follow most state and federal laws. The exception seems to be hunting and fishing. Oh well. So to me I think that they deserve these small privillages. So what if some tribes are getting rich by casinos. With as much crap as they put up with I say good for them. However I don't think they should have a monopoly on it either. 

Off the soap box again. Interested in comments.


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## WILDCATWICK

> I would ask three things: will the Indian community provide us with hearing/trial minutes and proof of individuals being and meeting punishments? Is there any scientific backing or rational behind the tribal wildlife regulations? Do the Michigan tribes have restocking and rearing programs for wildlife?



Don't know your answer to number one. I know sometimes they are sticklers of giving that type of info out to the U.S. Government and outsiders. 

Your second question is yes. Go do the search they have a fishiries and wildlife division. They use State and Federal studies as well as their own. 

To answer your third question yes. Obviously it is miniscule compared to Michigan. As they have no where nere as many users of the resources and fail in comparison to our own commercial fisherman. They assisting right now in the restoration of coaster brook trout.

Ogre. You want to just ignore history? Why? Look we the white people wiped out grayling, wappatti, and buffalo. These were items that the Natives use to use. When they used it I mean they used the whole thing. Natives naturally kept their own population in check. If they over used their resources they would have a die off in the tribe. Well because of the way things are now that won't happen. But white people never had a way to keep our own population in check. We now have had to enact resource manament in order to not allow our growth to over run our resources......the natives didn't do it we did. So to me your complaing at the worng group.. They have had a history of great resource managment until we screwed it all up... now because of our ignorance you want them to pay? Why?



I think our own commercial fishing does a hell of alot more damage IMO.


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## Randy Kidd

WILDCATWICK said:


> Oops, I did find info off the updated census:
> Recession hits poverty and income levels
> WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 2002
> 
> American Indians and Alaska Natives suffer from the highest poverty rates in the nation, the Census Bureau reported on Tuesday.
> 
> Based on three-year average, nearly one-quarter of all Native Americans lived below the poverty level. The rate was more than two times the national average (11.7 percent), according to Census figures.
> 
> But Native Americans were the only group to have seen a drop in poverty. While rates for whites (7.8 percent), Hispanics (21.4 percent), Asians (10.2 percent) and African-Americans (22.7 percent) were at record lows, they all saw increases from 2000 to 2001.
> 
> A related trend emerged for income levels in the United States. Median household income dropped 2.2 percent nationwide, with white, Hispanic, Asian and African-American families all seeing statistically significant declines.
> 
> On the other hand, the three-year average for Native Americans failed to change much. The median income was $32,116, still far below the national average of $42,228 and trailing most racial and ethnic groups -- except for African-Americans at $29,870.
> 
> Indian Country was largely shielded from the changes -- mostly due to less than complete statistics. The Census Bureau uses averages and cautions against multi-year comparisons based on data limitations.
> 
> Reservations and Indian communities still remain mired in poverty, federal officials acknowledge. The Bureau of Indian Affairs last week held an economic development summit aimed at combating high rates of poverty, unemployment and other poor conditions.
> 
> "It is unconscionable to have islands of poverty in a nation enjoying great prosperity," Assistant Secretary Neal McCaleb said.


To address the quotes above..Isn't the basis for the treaty and all the rights they claim from it due to their claim that they are a "sovereign nation" because of the treaty..If that is so then their reservations are sovereign territory in effect a different country..They then should not be included in US statistics. And if the treaty of 1836 should not be changed to reflect the modern world then so be it..They did not have power boats in 1836. Nor nylon gill nets. No repeating rifles, no smokeless powder. no scopes.. snowmobiles ect..I also believe the treaty states that hunting and fishing rights are for 'subsistance", yet their catch is being sold outside the reservation for profit....As far as the poverty thing goes..get off the damn reservation and living off of welfare..I have heard of welfare families handing down the trait before but damn 168 years worth..time to get a job bro.


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## Ogre

What Randy Kidd said.


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## WILDCATWICK

Randy, good points. But the report did not say that these people were unemployed. Just payed alot less. I'm sure the unemployment numbers are high as well though. But I think there is problem with them moving away. If there is anyone that knows please correct me if I'm wrong. But if they move to find better employment they lose their voteing privilliges. They basicaly are taken out of the community. They can have no input. They basicly are giving up their heritage. That is really a tough decision. Because they will basicly wipe out the whole tribes heritage eventually unless they have a casino . But with the treaty it should help. They can hunt and fish to provide for the family, they receive grants and this helps keep their heritage. Not a great way to do it. But we sure do live in an imperfect world. I would also assume because of the grants, fishing, and hunting rules that it may contribute to the lower income and higher poverty levels.

Bottom line in my book is that we do owe these people something. If you think we don't I;m still waiting for why? There are always a few bad apples that tarnish their image. Our own commercial fishing does far more damage than the native americans (no one has responded to this fact). And we also have way more "SLOB" hunters and "slob" fishing people than they do. (adress that on too.) 

ANd I hate the fact that we might be the "Indian givers" sorry but that does not sit well with me. I guesse I liken it to integrety, something our country is losing every day. :sad:


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## SR-Mechead

WILDCATWICK said:


> There are always a few bad apples that tarnish their image. Our own commercial fishing does far more damage than the native americans (no one has responded to this fact). And we also have way more "SLOB" hunters and "slob" fishing people than they do. (adress that on too.
> Ok I have to finally agree with you about the slob hunting and fishing part. I also think that when gill netting started the white man was paying for the boats and nets because of greed, BUT I do not agree with if they leave the community they will lose there rights. That is stupid. How about the ones that became doctors or attorneys. they had to leave and attend college. I also think in todays world if someone wants to make something out of themselves they have to take the first step to show that this is what they want to do. Now I know that I'm going to get in trouble by saying this but I think that the treaty has made alot of people into pet rocks because they know that they will get help.


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## Ogre

Mr Wildcatwick you know a lot more about the tribes the average person. Are you in fact a tribe member and/or do you work for the tribe(s)? Inquiring minds want to know. Regarding the issue of living off of the reservation is that true that voting rights being lost? I ask as I know that all of the Indian commercial fishermen in my area live down the road and not on tribal lands. In conversation, they indicate that they get casino monies. Also, if the Indians are netting the river mouths and cruelly taking down Lake Trout populations, quotes aside, than why I should applaud their rearing efforts when they are admittedly small? Isn't the general Michigan fishing license monies still (pardon the pun) on the hook for replenishing dwindling supplies? Finally, addressing another point, while I agree that non tribe commercial fishing leaves a lot to be desired it is still something that is regulated by the state and within state officials jurisdictions Commercial tribe fishermen are only loosely controlled by state officials and primarily controlled by tribal police and policy. We can look to ourselves to clean up bad non tribe commercial operations that is not the case for tribal members.


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## WILDCATWICK

> Finally, addressing another point, while I agree that non tribe commercial fishing leaves a lot to be desired it is still something that is regulated by the state and within state officials jurisdictions Commercial tribe fishermen are only loosely controlled by state officials and primarily controlled by tribal police and policy. We can look to ourselves to clean up bad non tribe commercial operations that is not the case for tribal members





> Are you in fact a tribe member and/or do you work for the tribe(s)? Inquiring minds want to know.


No.



> Regarding the issue of living off of the reservation is that true that voting rights being lost? I ask as I know that all of the Indian commercial fishermen in my area live down the road and not on tribal lands. In conversation, they indicate that they get casino monies.


They still receive benifits from the tribe, state, and federal governements. I'm almost positive that they lose voeting privilliges. 



> Also, if the Indians are netting the river mouths and cruelly taking down Lake Trout populations, quotes aside, than why I should applaud their rearing efforts when they are admittedly small? Isn't the general Michigan fishing license monies still (pardon the pun) on the hook for replenishing dwindling supplies?



Well I know you said quotes aside. But how many are doing what you suggested? Yeah unfortuantly our monies does replenish the fish. But we take the majority of them. We were the ones that overharvested in the past and that's why our government set up the fisheries this way (much needed I might add). But if you checked the natives conservation website you see that they contirbute in way as well. It might even be preportionate to their taking.



> Finally, addressing another point, while I agree that non tribe commercial fishing leaves a lot to be desired it is still something that is regulated by the state and within state officials jurisdictions Commercial tribe fishermen are only loosely controlled by state officials and primarily controlled by tribal police and policy. We can look to ourselves to clean up bad non tribe commercial operations that is not the case for tribal members


True. You nailed it with the loosely controlled. Mostly by their own tribal police. There government is just as screwed up as ours. Most tribes have problems with officers and officials turning blind eyes. That's why every now and then you hear of these "battles" happening on the reservations. There are "overthrows" because the commone members who are law abding and good people can't go anywhere. They can't go to the state. They have no real authority. They can't go to the officials or police because they are part of the problem. They can either be quite. Or if they raise some noise there is hell to pay. First Nations are having a heck of a time with these issues in western Canada. We have had these same problems in the U.P..


Despite the officials and patroling. I still feel they deserve what they get from the treatys. 

I'm leaving to go hunting. Good luck to all. Hopefull I'll have tails of big buck to tell you all on Monday


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## Hamilton Reef

Some education time needed:

GREAT LAKES INDIAN FISH & WILDLIFE WEBSITE
http://www.glifwc.org/

Welcome to the Little River Band of Ottawa Indians Tribal Government Website
http://lrboi.com/


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## WILDCATWICK

Buck is in the bag. 6 pointer. Thanks for posting those links Hamilton Reef.


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## toto

Okay, so we have had a friendly discussion concerning this matter, but I have a couple questions about this whole matter.

1) if they have a soverign nation, then why don't we have a tariff on the fish they sell outside the reservation. Is it because of NAFTA?

2) where in the original agreement does it say anything about building casinos, and where does it say anything about percapita money? 

This is where I think things are screwed up, I work with a guy who just married a gal from the Mt. Pleasant tribe. I ask him if it were true that these folks get like $2500 per week. His answer was, yes there are some that get that much money, but she isn't old enough for that. She gets $1500 per week, plus 3 bonus' of around $10000 per bonus per year. Yes thats $30k in bonus money for christmas, her birthday, and one other occasion I don't remember. Why on earth is that so.

All I can really say is that this money, IMHO, is ruining their own heritage. Once these people have all this money, I trully believe they will forget just who they were, and that really is a sad thing. Anybody have any answers to those questions?


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## WILDCATWICK

Yep. Wouldn't be nice if they took some of that monies to set up cultural centers and heritage musemums for themselves and for us? I agree with you.



> 1) if they have a soverign nation, then why don't we have a tariff on the fish they sell outside the reservation. Is it because of NAFTA?


Don't know. I don't know that our own governement has even looked at the issue. I would think that is why...but I really don't know.



> 2) where in the original agreement does it say anything about building casinos, and where does it say anything about percapita money?


It doesn't say anything about it. But as land of sovereign nation they can do what they want....casinos seems to be what they want. With that I wonder if they have leased any of the land for casinos? I doubt it but it would be interesting to know.


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## Biggbear

I noticed a few people pose the point of view that we in the 21st century didn't create the Treaty of 1836, we didn't kick the Indians off their land our Ancestors did. These people feel that because they didn't create this situation, there should be no difference between the Indians and everyone else. Fine lets start over, we'll nullify the treaty, give up the rights given to the Indians in exchange for the land, the Government gives back the land they bought in exchange for those rights and the Indians can sell the land you live on now back to you for current market value. The Indians won't need or want Casino's they'll make a million times more money selling the cities back to you. It doesn't matter that it was our Ancestors that made the deal, any one currently living in the area stated in the treaty is benefiting today, right now, if you live in the Central LP up to the Central to Eastern UP or travel there you personally benefit by the purchase made then. If the land hadn't been sold to the Government you wouldn't live,work or play there, it would be private property. So if you can benefit by the Treaty of 1836 why can't the Indians? If everyone wants to "get back to the way it was" then get out of the lands sold to the Govt. then we'll talk.


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## Ogre

I really think that most people miss the point which is that the tribes are becoming very pro active in pursuing among other things hunting and fishing rights which is the original point of this thread. I am not hear to fight the original agreements but I can ask for common sense to be applied. Anyone would be hard pressed to call the lower or the eastern and central upper remote or virgin territory. But most importantly, my personal observations, admittedly only by tribal commercial fishermen, are that the tribes take, take excessively, and do not give. I gave up fishing the Carp a number of years ago as the river mouth was netted. The agreement was that the tribes had to stay out of Hammond Bay so they ringed the bay in with nets. Ask the recreational UP Lake Trout about their thoughts about Tribal fishing and be prepared to hear talk that would make a long shoreman blush. To me it's a question of treaty rights applied to today's circumstances and today's modern wildlife management techniques and not against nineteenth century standards. I see the tribes net and prevent spawning and I see wanton over fishing. Maybe I should not apply commercial fishing towards other inland issues but it's my only point of reference into their thinking on wildlife issues. I continually see litigious stances by the tribes in every other facet of today's life and in my opinion many of the issues the tribes are involved with are not Indian versus non Indian issues, with the Detroit casino's being a perfect example, but are plan and simple money issues. Again, I'm not in a position to invalidate treaties but I can argue for and will add my dollars and voice to those that are fighting for compliance based upon circumstances seen today and based upon sound modern wildlife management practices. My personal observations are that environmentally sound wildlife practices are not being followed today by the tribes and as such they will not command my respect or acquaintance I would ask if the tribes would be willing to compel their members, which potentially could be allowed to take big game numbers in excess of State of Michigan guidelines, to use the game exclusively for personal consumption and that the game could not be sold commercially.


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## WILDCATWICK

Ogre, If I was you I would send some letters to your represenitive and to the tribes themselves. It's obvious you feel passionate aobut this. You have some good points. The treaty is never going to go away. So the only way to make change is thru vocal and political pressure. Good Luck.


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## mrymar

Indian conservations at work????

http://www.mlive.com/news/muchronicle/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1099928763184670.xml

back to the top!!!!


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## SR-Mechead

Note by Esox: post edited, inflammatory and racist. Watch your step folks.


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## mrymar

Bonner wrote the citation, but it goes before tribal court.

If it was a non-indian opperation, the penilty would have been 90 days in jail and $10 a pound for the fish, which would equal $38,570.

Tribal law says that the fine and be whatever, as long at it is at least $250. 

Do you think the tribal fine will approach $38,570??? Only time will tell.

The same fisher has been written citations for illegelly marked nets all summer long.


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## SR-Mechead

What a bunch of BS


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## Eastern Yooper

During the past 4 years I've seen more than few bigoted threads like this surface here at M-S.

Time & again its become obvious that for some, sadly, ignorance is bliss when it come to the American Indian.

Comments like Steve saying the indians all get free land. Or the fellow stating they all get a piece of the casino pie. 

What a bunch of misinformed B-S.

If you're going to make bigoted, racist, sterotypical comments like that, and the site owner/administration allows it to remain, then I'm gone from here for good.

I'm 1/2 blood from Minnesota. 34 years old and paid my own way theu college. Never got any "indian money", free land, or other handouts. I pay taxes, work for the state, buy state hunting & fishing licenses, and follow all the regular laws of the land, same as everyone else.

I agree that the tribes shoudn't be allowed different hunting & fishing rights then the rest of us..... but the indians didn't introduce the lamprey, gobie, zevra mussel, snakehead, flying carp, or the other numerous exotics. The indians didn't pollute the lakes to the point that there are numerous fish advisories. The indians didn't fish to extinction species such as the grayling, nor did they shoot-off the native moose, elk, wolf, turkey, and woodlands caribou. Last time I checked, it was the settlers that were responsible for the demise of many species.


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## mrymar

Eastern Yooper said:


> I agree that the tribes shoudn't be allowed different hunting & fishing rights then the rest of us..... .


I agree.



Eastern Yooper said:


> but the indians didn't introduce the lamprey, gobie, zevra mussel, snakehead, flying carp, or the other numerous exotics. The indians didn't pollute the lakes to the point that there are numerous fish advisories. The indians didn't fish to extinction species such as the grayling, nor did they shoot-off the native moose, elk, wolf, turkey, and woodlands caribou.


Neither did I, you going to sterotype me in with them???


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## WILDCATWICK

Not this thread again! Well it only takes a few bad apple to spoil it all. I don't think these two guys represent most Native Americans. At least no more than my fellow white hibillie buddies that pluck deer at night and snag all day. It only take's a couple of these people to make us have a negative view as a whole. That is wrong to do. I don't want to be lumped in with any poachers just because they are of the same nationality, race, sex, religion, first name, etc. etc. etc..


Too many people are sterotyping. I've noticed it on other threads as well. :sad:


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## trout

Wow I read the thread and I see one thing..........we are not solving anything here folks.

Whan I was a kid growing up I wanted to be an Indian ( Native American today)

But the reality of being Native is one of suffering.

Kids taken away at age five and sent to schools, to learn the white mans language.
Many of these children ran away and returned home, only to be shipped off farther away, beaten and sometimes killed and often raped.

Land: we took it all, if it was worth a nickel...... we took it.

We fed them rotted meat
We killed the villages as they slept, we burned whatever was left.
We did this, our gov't, you can't say you were not part of it because you are an American.

The casinos are big biz and not every Native gets a big ol slice of the pie.

I find it strange that the newly constucted Native American building in D.C. 
( I think) Has drawn so little attention. 

The effort Natives have put forth to retain their unwritten languages is a great task.

Natives lived here for some 25 thousand years, without a whole lot of trouble.
The ABOS's of Australia some 50-60 thousand years.

Whites have destroyed the land,air and sea.
We have killed 100,000,000 times more animals in 300 years, than they will ever destroy.
Perhaps I am biased, as I have shared a pipe or two with a few natives, I learned to make pots from a man who is world reknowned in his Native craft.

Spending some time with them, paints a whole different story.

A few tons of fish is nothing compared to the current destruction we have today.
I think we need to learn about the Native, and learn how to get along in the future for OUR sake and theirs.


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## Eastern Yooper

Thank-you to the admins that edited the rude comments.

Folks, the thread topic starter affects all of us who enjoy the outdoors, and is more than worth of debate amongst the membership.

But a line of basic human decency gets crossed when a few pathetic, insecure individuals feel the need to stereotype, criticize, belittle, and condemn an entire race of people simply because those people don't look, talk, or act the same way.

People with racist beliefs/ideals have an inferiority complex. They only way they cope with this complex is to run-down and hate what they're afraid of and/or what they don't understand.

People who judge others based solely on race, religion, or color aren't worth wasting time over, because they'll never change their views. They're obtuse thinkers, and need to feel superior by mocking, ridiculing, or making ignorant generalizations about others. 

A little tolerance and empathy goes a long, long way when it comes to dealing with, commuticating to, living among, and working with our fellow mankind. I'm not asking for people to rally to the next pow-wow, or to go rent _Dances With Wolves_. I'm talking about some using basic standards of propriety and consideration for others; there's alot of members that read these forums without posting and I doubt they wanna read the crap that was on here earlier. Fact is, noone should have to read blatantly racist, derogatory comments on this board.

Thanks again for the removal of such.


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## mrymar

WILDCATWICK said:


> Well it only takes a few bad apple to spoil it all.
> 
> Too many people are sterotyping. I've noticed it on other threads as well. :sad:


There is only a few Native American fishers on the water. I have personally spoken to the CO that is writting citations about the fisher that operates Ludington. There are more problems in Ludington that any other port, why is that?

I am not sterotying. The fisher in Ludington is just plain dont care about anything.

I can go on and on about this. Several times the Ludington fisher has been written citations for not marking his nets. Ask CO Bonner where the citations he wrote up this spring are. He has no idea, they go to tribal court. Even then, the nets sat in the water all spring. Finally, before the large salmon tournament in Ludington, our DNR actually went out and placed markers on the nets. Not the fisher. Then a few weeks goes by, the fisher decided to move some of this nets and does not mark them again. 2 nets down by pentwater. How hard is it to tie a bouy to a net?

Now the same fisher is caught taking illegel fish. What is going to happen? After observing how things were handled after the illegel nets markings, i am guessing nothing.

This entire thing comes down to the word native. US citizens vs. the Native American Super Citizens. You cant have 10 different races playing by seperate rules. Why does our governemnt allow this, I have no idea. We all came from different backgrounds to get here, but we should all play be the same rules.


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## WILDCATWICK

> I am not sterotying. The fisher in Ludington is just plain dont care about anything.


Yes, Yes you are. When you say it's only one fisher. Then you group everyother person within that race with that fisher that is exactly what you are doing.



> This entire thing comes down to the word native. US citizens vs. the Native American Super Citizens.


ONe person does not equal Native American Super Citzens.




> This entire thing comes down to the word native. US citizens vs. the Native American Super Citizens. You cant have 10 different races playing by seperate rules. Why does our governemnt allow this, I have no idea. We all came from different backgrounds to get here, but we should all play be the same rules.


Do you feel that the way the first nations and native americans were treated in the past was ok?

You feel that they should get nothing for their suffering?

You feel they should get nothing because there way of living was completly destoryed?

How do you feel about them....accept jealousy :gaga: 

I'm sure the Native Americans & First Nations would be more than willing to give up their rights from the treaty if they could receive all their land back and a monetary settlement for the loss of innocent life over the years. Are you willing to go that far to make things right? Or are you willing to let them be with the Treaty as it stands? :help:


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## boehr

There are a bunch here that really have no idea what they are talking about on this topic. Another case typical of; "I don't like it so it should be the way I want it". For us to allow and follow a tready is protected by our constitution. You know, that same paper that you defend when some start talking about 2nd ammendment rights. You hear stories from others or single occurances and think everythings the same about native americans and about a lot of other things too. Maybe if many of you were more charged up about catching poachers, those people out there intending and breaking laws. Those laws that you all are, or should be, familar with instead of jumping on some band wagon we would all be better off. There are some pathetic statements here that I'm glad you don't call me your friend because I sure don't call you my friend.


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## TSS Caddis

Just be thankful that Native American's are not the majority in our democracy. In South Africa, Zimbabwe and other African countries, the native people came into power and have changed the laws to where if you can prove your ancestors used to live on a piece of land, you can file a claim to it. There are many African farmers/ranchers that are losing land that they paid for and are left with no reimbursement.

I guess any issues we have with our extremely small Michigan Native American population is trivial in comparison.


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