# NRC reacts to the "Declining" bear population



## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

The April second meeting was the first step to try to solve the drastic decline in bear numbers in the Western Upper Peninsula. 
1. Tags were cut 21% 

2. Guides are limited to 12 bait sites total.

There are other issues being discussed. This isn't addressing the problem completly, but its a start.


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## thongg (Jul 10, 2007)

was at the nrc meeting they passed option C in the bear regulations reduced tags 21% in WUP inceased 2% in EUP also the correct pharseing on the 12 baits is "8{b} It shall be unlawfull for any person to establish or tend more than a total of 12 bait stations." i spoke with the commisioners and they stated that any person can maintain 12 baits if a guide employees 5 people then you can maintain up to 60 baits also they are looking to register all guiding activity this will help people find guides and not the weekend parttime rip off people sorry so long


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

In 1985 the Michigan DNR carried out a Bear Hunter Opinion Survey. The survey questionnaire was extensive...with about 13 pages. Hunter compliance was significant. 73% responded. They learned there were aproximately 230 bear guides in the year prior to the survey (1984). Most operated in the U.P. Guide fees back then averaged a little over $200.00 a week. The consensus gained from the survey was...the majority of hunters felt guides should be licensed and pay a fee. That was 25 years ago!!! Lots of revenue lost in those 25 years...and seeing as guiding is a cash business there's been over 25 years of state and federal taxes avoided. Along with that...if a guiding operation has employees they're 
required to have a federal tax ID. If their employees operate under a limited partnership they were/are required to file a 1099 tax form and claim their income. The Michigan DNR is ripe for a law suit over their failure to address this issue. Maybe that is where this is heading...as the general public becomes better informed on this issue. 

During a recent meeting with the DNR this issue came up and a representative of the law division claimed oversight on business' operating on public recreational land was not a DNR responsibility. If it is not the DNR's responsibility to oversee what goes on in our public land...who's is it? 

Looking back to 2006 when the DNR sought huge increases in all hunting and fishing licenses...DNR Director Humphries made the public statement,
"she left no stone unturned looking for additional sources of revenue." Interesting she saw no merit in a guides license then. Same goes for the workgroup set-up to seek additional sources of revenue...they never mentioned licensing guides either.


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## Andy Drumm (Dec 23, 2008)

thongg said:


> was at the nrc meeting they passed option C in the bear regulations reduced tags 21% in WUP inceased 2% in EUP also the correct pharseing on the 12 baits is "8{b} It shall be unlawfull for any person to establish or tend more than a total of 12 bait stations." i spoke with the commisioners and they stated that any person can maintain 12 baits if a guide employees 5 people then you can maintain up to 60 baits also they are looking to register all guiding activity this will help people find guides and not the weekend parttime rip off people sorry so long


 so instead of only tending 3 baits , a person can now tend 12 ??? That doesnt sound right ... why would they cut tag numbers and allow guides to bait more ??? THAT SOUNDS REALLY SCREWED UP !!!


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

What's really screwed up they added a bunch of extra tags last year in Baraga unit for the third hunt. Now they say not enough bears and decrease it this year by 21%? And they wonder why people don't believe the deer counts?

I hunted the third hunt last year and did see less bears then the year before. I also seen alot more outfitters and hound hunters last year. Saw lots of bears on vehicles after the hound hunters came out out of the woods. So I know we had quite a few bears around.


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

So Rooster what type of guide lisc are you talking about? Master Guides and subguides? How about lisc fee's? Seems to me you would have to get 500.00 for masters and around 150.00 for subguides to pay for the costs to run the program.

Griff


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Interesting comment griffondog. Wisconsin's guide fee is $40.00 a year and they have been licensing guides for years. Actually, I believe Michigan is the only bear hunting state in the country (where guiding is allowed) that does not license & regulate guiding. It is a management obligation the Michigan Department of Natural Resources is going to have to face up to.

There are ways of generating revenue Michigan has failed to take advantage of....Idaho requires a bear bait permit. Its $12.75 and it provides 3 bait site tags. This would be a great revenue source for Michigan and it would also provide enforcement capability when it comes to illegal baits. Other states like Maine where there are large tracts of timber company owned land have a different process. Bear hunters have to pay the land owner...the going rate in Maine is $100 per bait site.


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Wow I didn't know the guide lisc was so cheap in Wisconsin. I'm more familiar with what goes on out west. In Nevada a resident Master is 750.00 and a Non-resident is 1500.00. How are you going to get rid of the riff-raff with such a cheap Lisc?

Griff


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Griff, another interesting question. Here is an example of how to set-up criteria to weed out the culls:

1. Any individual with a past or present hunter harassment conviction be barred from ever holding a guide's license, or participating in a guiding operation. 

2. Guides required to adhere to all state and federal laws, regulations and statutes.

3. Guides be held accountable for safety of their client (bonded & insured).

4. Guides held accountable for client being out of the woods promptly at the end of the days shooting hours. (suggest 1 warning then suspension for 1 yr.)

5. Guides be required to list all bait sites with local C.O. and baits must be at least 2 miles (by road) apart.

6. Guides be required to school clients on how to identify cub sized bear.

7. Guides qualify and be certified in first aide and CPR.

8. Set-up a complaint department where complaints on unethical guiding practices can be addressed. 

Just a rough draft, but its a start.


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## perch321 (Sep 8, 2005)

It is interesting in all the bashing that is here on "guide's" but the problem of ruthless houndhunter's goes unquestioned.Will the same rule's you are talking about apply to the hound's I mean should they only be able to run a bear for 2 mile's then have to quit?Should they have to be monitored more closely to stay away from private property or is this a way of getting baiter's out of the picture so only hound hunting exist's?Sound's that way,and you watch what happen's when you all put this huge scar that is being applied between houndsmen and bait hunters here,the anti's and animal right activists will have a field day.It is truly sad to see the way bashing of one group goes on,to promote the way another does their thing.It it will not be long and all hunting will be going away due to this type of split between hunter's,there is more than ONE WAY of doing thing's.It would make a whole lot more sense to join force's and battle the problems that face all gun owner's and hunter's than to try and have an agenda against one to promote your's.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Perch, the objective is to license and regulate all commercializing (guiding) on public land and it applies equally to guided hound hunts on bear as well as bobcats and any other species hunted with hounds. It is all commercializing on public recreational land. 

The Bear Management Management Team comprised of 12 different user groups across the state came to a 100% consensus...guiding needs to be regulated and licensed. Early on the attempt was made to spin this as a hound hunter against bait hunter issue...that's an interesting tactic, but that's all it is is a tactic.

Of all the bear management meetings across the state...NOBODY SPOKE AGAINST LICENSING AND REGULATING GUIDING IN THIS STATE. 

If whitetail deer were being exploited commercially to the extent Michigan's black bear are...this issue would have been resolved years ago.


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## perch321 (Sep 8, 2005)

Hey Rooster,I completely agree with the guides having to have a license and I know alot of them do,and if they have a license it will keep alot of the junk one's out.It is just that we are all going to have to come together to battle the anti's and these people that are trying to take all of our rights away.I was just watching on the new's where our right's are going to be under attack again,they say the U.S. is responsible for the gun's getting into the drug lord's hands in Mexico.Again Rooster I like your passion with the bear,I am just giving my view point


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## dsgt1 (Jun 17, 2008)

well this has just turned into a bunch of opinions and you know about them they are like [email protected]@&^*(# everones got one and they all stink. if you want something done join some bear club. put your $$$ to work instead of your loose jaws. pr help DNR w/studies instead of bad mouthing them.


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## dsgt1 (Jun 17, 2008)

dsgt1 said:


> well this has just turned into a bunch of opinions and you know about them they are like [email protected]@&^*(# everones got one and they all stink. If you want something done join some bear club. Put your $$$ to work instead of your loose jaws. Pr help dnr w/studies instead of bad mouthing them.


 words without action is just lip service!!!!1


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## Andy Drumm (Dec 23, 2008)

dsgt1 said:


> words without action is just lip service!!!!1


Exactly !!! That is why many of us have contacted the NRC the DNR , our state representatives and have joined many organizations to help protect all kinds of hunting .. 
As far as licensing goes .. I am all for the higher priced license for guides and for the DNR to get involved with regulation ..Or maybe even just enforce the regulations they already have ..


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

Perch, I am a member of every "bear club" in Michigan. I am also a member of heck of lot more organizations that protect our rights. Ruthless houndsmen? come on, isn't that generalizing? One of the board members of the MBHA is a game "pimp" he is houndsmen and a baiter. With Michigan's bear expert right by his side promoting their own agenda's....really makes me mad. We do not think selling our game and claiming exclusive use of public lands using strong arm tactics is right. Its sure not a hound vs bait issue. Its all about money. And thongg, do you really think that anyone(business) should be able to maintain 60 bait stands for anything? Are you touched? This isn't hunting, this is business. Clients expect a quality hunt for money spent.....not on taxpayers land boys! If you want to go kill something...go pay for one of those fenced in hunts....I you want to go "hunting" go hunting and enjoy the experiance without someone babysitting you....


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## dickey3476 (Dec 19, 2005)

dsgt1 said:


> well this has just turned into a bunch of opinions and you know about them they are like [email protected]@&^*(# everones got one and they all stink. if you want something done join some bear club. put your $$$ to work instead of your loose jaws. pr help DNR w/studies instead of bad mouthing them.


 
the last time i knew the money we tax payers pay into the state go to the state workers (dnr) so why should we have to put more money in for them to do the job they are already supposed to be doing. they are getting bad mouthed because they let this situation get of hand for not enforcing the laws that are already in place. rooster, thanks for all the work you do for us bear hunters. bait and hound hunters


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## Spartan88 (Nov 14, 2008)

dsgt1 said:


> well this has just turned into a bunch of opinions and you know about them they are like [email protected]@&^*(# everones got one and they all stink. if you want something done join some bear club. put your $$$ to work instead of your loose jaws. pr help DNR w/studies instead of bad mouthing them.


I find it more effective to write my state rep on DNR matters than to join clubs or even try to communicate with the worthless NRC. 

When someone works for a tax funded agency (DNR), they better put their big boy pants on and deal with criticism.


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## thongg (Jul 10, 2007)

charlie i stated that the nrc ruled that you could maintain 12 bait stations if 10 downstate bearhunters bait then that would be 30 baits now since most hunters from downstate dont spend 30 days traveling to the up you then find people to run the bait so you find 3 people to bait that is the same number of baits indiv or guided no different same number of baits same number of hunters after reading your post i thought that you were guided hunter vs hound hunter i now dont think so i think it is more that down state hunters are coming to the up and hunting as for needing a babysitter yeah i do wheelchair doesnt do well in the woods if i could walk i would do a hound hunt did it when i was young ran ***** all the time i hope this problem with all hunters who use the woods gets resolved because i do enjoy my time in the woods be it in the UP or downstate where i live


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

Thongg, Almost everyone I hunt with is from downstate. The law has special provisions for those in wheel chair...as it should be. I am an advocate for the bear, and the right for all to hunt on pulic land..........Do I think that you should be using strong arm tactics to claim exclusive use to public lands.....No I do not.....Do I think their is anyone in the state of Michigan that should maintain thirty bait sites on public land....No I do not.....Finding "loopholes" in the 12 bait site ruling is the very reason that the MDNR is trying to close them this week.....When it comes to greed....The laws on the books are often unenforceable; cub violations, wet sow violations, CFA land violations, now baiting violations....I think that every sportsmen should be able to enjoy a hunt on public land. Don't you? Or do you think a guide should be able to overharvest area's and chase folks off public lands so their "clients" can get "what they paid for". I guess grain based bait only spread disease in the Lower peninsula. The violations are real.....the decline in the bear population is real.....I certainly hope that you are an supporter of "our Natural Resources"...and our way of life.....to think that I am trying to deny a person in a wheelchair a hunting opportunity or anyone else in Michigan is an insult....Lets try to protect the resource first our right to hunt second...Its so simple isn't it?


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