# Is This Legal in Paint Creek



## BIG "D" (Sep 14, 2005)

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I came across this last night . It also had wire crossing the creek. Is this legal? Rainbow trout were not native to Paint creek. These signs were in the middle of the creek.


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## MrB (Jun 11, 2008)

I have heard about this. From what I understand, a guy has some pretty healthy rainbows that he feeds in the creek. I really dont understand how it could be legal, but i believe he has been doing it for some time.


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## MSUICEMAN (Jan 9, 2002)

this guy is either retarded or just out for personal gain.... as rainbows and browns aren't native, this guy is a d-bag. i don't know about legality but will try to find someone in the DNR to discuss this with.


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## DE82 (Nov 28, 2007)

Short Answer no it's not legal.


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## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

This has been discussed on here many times No its not legal its just a property owner that thinks he owns this section of the stream and wants to keep people out for his own benefit.


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## wanderboy (Sep 24, 2008)

it woudl be VERY VERY cool if we can chip enough $$ to buy the section of the water right between his property & the water.... that would be a daily none-stop battle.....:evilsmile

to beat them at their level of stupid, I think if i can catch a fish in paint, I'll put it on stringer, and hang it at front of the owner just to piss them off. (na, better not, i like my fish fresh, better cut it at the spot, maybe use that sign as cutting board.....) :yikes:


-this is my evil side talking.... don't hate me.


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## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

If I remember correctly this property owner had a chain link fence to keep his pet fish locked in.Doesnt look like its there anymore so there should be some big bows swimming around in the creek somewhere.


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## BIG "D" (Sep 14, 2005)

I stopped at the No Tresspassing sign. The fence might be futher up stream


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Boy, i would really be interested in what the DNR has to say about this.
So Yahoo who thinks he owns a river? *** is wrong with these people?
I'd get hold of the local DNR right now and show them the picts or take them to the river and have them inform us of the issue.

on a side note, if you tell me where these signs are i would gladly fish it for you to let you know what you are missing, er ah, i mean what is in that part of the paint.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

No such closure on the books

A typical case of Angler Harrassment. I would send those pics and a location to the Field Office at the end of South River Rd.


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## Fox (Nov 21, 2007)

I would think this would have to go before the courts to determine navigability. If the courts say yes it is then his signs are null and void; if the courts say no it isn't then as a property owner he has the right to keep people off the stretch that flows through his property.


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## BIG "D" (Sep 14, 2005)

Does any one know if Paint Creek has been determined "Navigitable"? It would be impossible now with all the monster logs across the creek.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Fox said:


> I would think this would have to go before the courts to determine navigability. If the courts say yes it is then his signs are null and void; if the courts say no it isn't then as a property owner he has the right to keep people off the stretch that flows through his property.


But he doesnt own the water that flows over that area so couldnt one fish the water if NOT standing on his property?


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## BIG "D" (Sep 14, 2005)

If I read this right, Paint creek is navigable.

*Review of the relationship of federal and state law regarding rivers:*​*The section on National River Law discusses river ownership, use, and conservation law throughout the United States. Following is a review of what individual states can and cannot lawfully do with the rivers within their borders.*

*The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that rivers that are navigable, for title purposes, are owned by the states, "held in trust" for the public. This applies in all fifty states, under the "Equal Footing Doctrine."*
*Rivers that do meet the federal test are automatically navigable, and therefore owned by the state. No court or government agency has to designate them as such.*
*The federal test of navigability is not a technical test. There are no measurements of river width, depth, flow, or steepness involved. The test is simply whether the river is usable as a route by the public, even in small craft such as canoes, kayaks, and rafts. Such a river is legally navigable even if it contains big rapids, waterfalls, and other obstructions at which boaters get out, walk around, then re-enter the water.*
*The states own these rivers up to the "ordinary high water mark." This is the mark that people can actually see on the ground, where the high water has left debris, sand, and gravel during its ordinary annual cycle. (Not during unusual flooding.) It is not a theoretical line requiring engineering calculations. Where the river banks are fairly flat, this mark can be quite a distance from the edge of the water during medium water flows. There is often plenty of room for standing, fishing, camping, and other visits.*

also from the DNR fish regs

Angler Rights On Public Streams

On fenced or posted property or farm property, a fisherman wading or floating a navigable public stream may, without written or oral consent, enter upon property within the clearly defined banks of the stream or, without damaging farm products, walk a route as closely proximate to the clearly defined bank as possible when necessary to avoid a natural or artificial hazard or obstruction, including, but not limited to, a dam, deep hole, or a fence or other exercise of ownership by the riparian owner.


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## drs (Oct 6, 2008)

Big d I grew up in LK. orion and have fished it for a lot of years. Land owners around there have always tried to find ways to keep you off the river, I even ran into a privacy fence across the river once.


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## BIG "D" (Sep 14, 2005)

I know where that is


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## The_Don (Apr 28, 2008)

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281920

read through that might help with your question


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## the rapids (Nov 17, 2005)

that guy who owns the property is named ron, he owns both sides of the creek in that stretch and has actually done a ton of restoration work on his stretch. if you proceeded past that (and yes legally you can) you will see he installed erosion checks on the high hill on the side of the creek that his house is on. he is an old guy and actually not that bad of a person. i have met him while fishing on the stream and he fed his pellet eating rainbows and browns for me while i was there, ended up with some nice video of it. if you are nice to him when he is down there, and non-confrontational towards him you may end up with a chance to educate him on the rainbows, and his permission to walk the undeveloped bank side of the creek. unfortunately i notice alot of foot steps along the banks in the downstream part of that particular stretch, all of which is private, and it is obviously angler foot traffic tresspassing so please be mindful of property rights in that stretch (not suggesting anyone reading this is up to that activity just a general heads up) because it is one of the least developed and nicest stretches of trout water we have locally.

and also at least one person at the dnr is aware of it.


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## fish_skeered (Oct 12, 2006)

Bingo, if he hadnt pasted it i was going to. Pretty much, as stated in the fishing regulation books, land owners cannot prevent you from being in the stream/river. One cannot claim ownership of most natural waterbodies and are the property of the public and/or state. He can put up all the fences and signs he wants, you still have every right to be in the stream and the clearly defined area of the streambed. However i do know that there is/was a multi-million dollar restoration project being thought up for the lower paint and the area downstream of it on the Clinton, specifically to reintroduce trout back into the Clinton. I doubt it, but these signs could be for that, however it is unlikely since there are no government seals on the signs and there is no change in the regs for this year.


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## streamertosser (May 20, 2008)

i'd like to go fish that area, just not sure where it is though.


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## wanderboy (Sep 24, 2008)

WOW!!!!

who would have thought of that??!!! I was bored, so google the area, look over Paint Creek right above Gunn Rd. there's a pond that's in heart shape :yikes:..... that's wild........... not that shouldn't be legal anywhere.... :lol:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...717,-83.169704&spn=0.000989,0.003422&t=h&z=19


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

wanderboy said:


> WOW!!!!
> 
> who would have thought of that??!!! I was bored, so google the area, look over Paint Creek right above Gunn Rd. there's a pond that's in heart shape :yikes:..... that's wild........... not that shouldn't be legal anywhere.... :lol:
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...717,-83.169704&spn=0.000989,0.003422&t=h&z=19


What u smok'in there son? Lol, just kiddin.

Some people just don't know what to do with their money!

(2000 views on this thread! This landowner is gonna have one busy summer chasing off fisherman from his football sized trouts)


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## wanderboy (Sep 24, 2008)

Silverexpress said:


> Some people just don't know what to do with their money!


that just sums it perfectly.... you got your neighbor doing trout farm on Paint Creek, I guess the only way to top that is to dig a heart shape pond at your backyard.... :lol: 

(totally jealous... i would go for the beer bottle shape, just FYI :evil.


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## Chinookhead (Mar 4, 2005)

treesniper said:


> I believe we are referring to the area just South of Gun Road. This guy also had a wild game enclosure with Elk and exotic Europeon deer and albino deer as well but most of them escaped his enclosure and started inbreeding with the wild deer population and now there are white deer all over thee place near Galagher Rd. and Orion Road across to Silverbell Rd. and west to Adams Rd. ...there is also a Dam on his property ON PAINT CREEK! The Rainbow Trout to my knowledge can not go any further North on the river than the Dam and I for one have never caught a Rainbow North of Gun Road, only brownies. I believe the D.N.R. revoked his permit for the enclosed animals after they started escaping and he no longer has them. The one time I did go under his fence and "Tresspassed" on his High Fenced pasture like enclosure, I did quite well but got a little freaked out when I came within 25 yards of a bedded Bull Elk! The Trout North of Galagher Rd. up to his Dam are few and far between but seem to run considerably larger than most of the entire river system and I have caught a few Lunkers in there up to 24 Inches...This was probably 10 or more years ago and I have not seen any animals nor have I fished in there for years. Yours Truely...the "Treesniper"


How big is this dam? Does it really prevent the migration of fish? Is it a legal dam? It seems like a dam would be bad for the river and would prevent a healthy Clinton/Paint migration.


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## puttputt (Aug 2, 2005)

wanderboy said:


> WOW!!!!
> 
> who would have thought of that??!!! I was bored, so google the area, look over Paint Creek right above Gunn Rd. there's a pond that's in heart shape :yikes:..... that's wild........... not that shouldn't be legal anywhere.... :lol:
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...717,-83.169704&spn=0.000989,0.003422&t=h&z=19



I'm certain this pond is NOT on the property of the guy mentioned in this thread. He's upstream a bit further from your map. Google a bit more and you just might discover his full name and address.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

The property can be easily identified from Paint Creek Trail. He has a huge house with a picturesque 3 story "window wall" facing the trail, and if it still stands, a fence that goes around the entire property. The house also sits on top of a hill. 

It was quite a spectecle to watch the herd running about from the trail.


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## BIG "D" (Sep 14, 2005)

puttputt, You are correct.


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## wanderboy (Sep 24, 2008)

puttputt said:


> I'm certain this pond is NOT on the property of the guy mentioned in this thread. He's upstream a bit further from your map. Google a bit more and you just might discover his full name and address.


i am sure you are right on both. that's just some thing i had to throw out there. just too funny not to share. :lol: I wouldn't go that far to google his name because i belived whatever they do at their own backyard is their own business, as long as that doesn't come cross with public interest. the guy (fish farm) mentioned in this thread just did the oppositive. no one shall hijack public interest over personal favors/preference. 

-just my $.02.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

That google maps is real powerful. I can see a branch of the Paint that once held brookies - this was back in the early 90's. Neat. Maybe it still does. Gotta check it out one of these days.


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## bborow2501 (Nov 12, 2007)

on a side note what kind of access could one expect to find on such tribs?
would wadeing upstream from the paint be legal?
I know that some cross the trail at certain points. Is there some sort of right of way along the trail that can be used?

Also I was fishing in the tienken area the other day and some people in kayaks paddled by, so by the definition I would say it is navigible.


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