# Fishing Conscious



## myruca (Dec 27, 2011)

Hello,
I live in the Northern Indiana area, (I was born and raised in Michigan and have always considered myself a Michigander hence my subscription to this forum)-regardless I'm stuck in a moral dilemma. I'm hoping to get some input from other dedicated fishermen.

There's a small stream that runs by my house, that is well, pretty much a secret (i intend to keep it that way) believe it or not- and right now is full of steelhead. 

My dilemma is the the stream at its deepest is maybe 4' and its widest is possibly 20'. Fishing for steelhead here is just too easy, they are visible and you can see them spawning, swimming and I find it quite peaceful watching them. My daughter loves to go 'watch the fish' with me. It is perfectly legal for me to fish here- the stream is not closed to fishing and is open year round. Does anyone find this type of ease, and access a bit or a moral issue or is it just me?

I've fished steelhead my entire life, and I much prefer the thrill of fighting the fish, giving them a chance at breaking the line, or spitting the hook than dropping a bait/lure into the middle of a wading stream.

I drive by other areas that are similar and see 30-40 guys lined up fishing, trashing the place, and stressing the fish by dropping lures on their heads and worse snagging them. I hope that this place doesn't end up like that.

Any thoughts on this type of 'fishing' is much appreciated.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Mark has got a good point, I'll send my post via PM.


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## mark (Feb 4, 2000)

the one thing i dont understand is, if you are concerned about people fishing that way why draw more attention to those waterways?


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Everyone has their preferences for where, when, and how to fish for Steelhead. Every experienced Steelheader has fished to spawning fish at some point. If you don't want to fish for those fish, then don't. I have spent many hours watching Steelhead spawn, and not casting to them at all. But I have spent plenty of time fishing to spawning fish, too. Sometimes they bite, and a lot of times they don't. If you sit there with a fishing rod next to you, someone is going to see that, and bring their own rod, and curiosity. If you just sit there without any fishing gear, most people would probably think you are just enjoying the day. If you stand in plain sight and cast to those fish, someone will see you, and will come back with their own gear - then it will be a race to see who can catch the most fish, the fastest. Sorry, but that is how it works. 

Watching Steelhead spawn can be a lot of fun. Watch for their mouths to open and close - you can see the flash of white when they open. It doesn't always mean they are feeding, but quite a bit of the time they will be. I have literally watched Steelhead suck in a spawnbag, when I couldn't feel the slightest bite through my rod and line. But I almost never fish for spawning Steelhead anymore.


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

That's just not right that some Indiana planted fish made it back to spawn in a drainage ditch. The fishermen in Mi must be slipping.


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## myruca (Dec 27, 2011)

mark said:


> the one thing i dont understand is, if you are concerned about people fishing that way why draw more attention to those waterways?


I never posted where this was- northern Indiana is a big place.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

myruca said:


> I never posted where this was- northern Indiana is a big place.


True but there is not a whole lot of water...


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## twowack (Dec 21, 2010)

Watershed map.
Google Earth.
Sounds like a great memory for you and your daughter to enjoy.
Its ok that you tease us with a trillion steelhead in your back yard you had to tell someone.We need pictures to to verify the story we are not sure if we believe it because you could just be a writer, trying stuff out to see the reactions one might get with Innocent fisherman. 
Hey has anyone found a wading belt with a 12 inch solid gold clock for a belt buckle. I understand completly I have a old hatchery stream close by thats untouched.keep it that way its not hurting anthing.


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## myruca (Dec 27, 2011)

twowack said:


> Watershed map.
> Google Earth.
> Sounds like a great memory for you and your daughter to enjoy.
> Its ok that you tease us with a trillion steelhead in your back yard you had to tell someone.We need pictures to to verify the story we are not sure if we believe it because you could just be a writer, trying stuff out to see the reactions one might get with Innocent fisherman.
> Hey has anyone found a wading belt with a 12 inch solid gold clock for a belt buckle. I understand completly I have a old hatchery stream close by thats untouched.keep it that way its not hurting anthing.


Not sure I follow any of that....


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## jm77 (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm sure that I don't follow any of that


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

Your not crazy, your what most fisherman should be.

If your not crazy about fishing them there, then your not crazy to not fish them there. Sounds like a great opportunity for your daughter to learn about the outdoors.

B


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## twowack (Dec 21, 2010)

jm77 said:


> I'm sure that I don't follow any of that[/QUOTEWatershed map,Google Earth as in I could find that hole.
> Like Mark says dont bring the attention,
> Its great he has that memory with his daughter.
> Pictures would be cool, but then again with Google Earth you can see a lot of detail and probably find it, not good.
> ...


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## wilsonm (Dec 28, 2010)

If the stream stays cold enough in the summer to hold trout, then it would be a viable nursery stream and possibly contributing to steelhead natural reproduction. If it gets to warm in the summer, then all the spawning your seeing won't come to any fruition. As far as the adults go, studies have shown around 70% mortality after spawning. This is just some biological info to help your decision making process.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I disagree with the mortality rate of 70 percent I see plenty of 4 and 5 pound fish on redds and find very few dead spawners im the rivers that I fish in. Most of the biologists that I have ever met are book wise and outdoor stupid. If you want to fish catch & release it should not hurt the fish as steelhead are a pretty tough fish thus the name. I have plenty of streams in the UP that load up with chromers and I just watch them.


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

Robert Holmes said:


> I disagree with the mortality rate of 70 percent I see plenty of 4 and 5 pound fish on redds and find very few dead spawners im the rivers that I fish in. Most of the biologists that I have ever met are book wise and outdoor stupid. If you want to fish catch & release it should not hurt the fish as steelhead are a pretty tough fish thus the name. I have plenty of streams in the UP that load up with chromers and I just watch them.


I think a lot of the steelhead die out in the lake. I've noticed over the years every DB I catch is a hen. I've never, ever caught a dropback male. I also do not purposely target dropbacks, because they are already low on energy and don't fight all that hard anyways. Voracious biters though. 

As far as the OP, it's your call. Late in the run last year(end of May/beginning of June) quite a few fish were coming in and hitting the gravel on a local river. I just observed them and took some videos of unmolested spawning. It's actually pretty entertaining just watching them do what they do, with no interference.


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## RAD FISH (Oct 17, 2006)

:: Yesterday I took my daughter to a spot close to home that always has spawning fish on the gravel this time of year. I had my ploe with me to fish the slots behind the redds and sure enough there where quit a few fish on redds. We watched them for a while and it was hard not to take a few swings at them just to get one on for my daughter ( lining fish is like riding a bike its so easy once you've done it you never forget how ) but I didn't. She said to me dad there right there catch one and thats just what it would have been one caught not fished. I explained to her how variable they are when spawning and that its best to leave them alone and she understood that was the right thing to do. Didn't even wet the line.


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## myruca (Dec 27, 2011)

RAD FISH said:


> :: Yesterday I took my daughter to a spot close to home that always has spawning fish on the gravel this time of year. I had my ploe with me to fish the slots behind the redds and sure enough there where quit a few fish on redds. We watched them for a while and it was hard not to take a few swings at them just to get one on for my daughter ( lining fish is like riding a bike its so easy once you've done it you never forget how ) but I didn't. She said to me dad there right there catch one and thats just what it would have been one caught not fished. I explained to her how variable they are when spawning and that its best to leave them alone and she understood that was the right thing to do. Didn't even wet the line.


Thanks for sharing- its nice to pass on stuff like that to the kiddos.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

I will say that spawning Steelhead that are not spooked are often good biters. It is just a matter of finding a nice bed of spawning fish that aren't spooked. They can see you coming a good distance off. They are very tuned in to waves and sounds made by wading, boats, motors, etc. They get spooked by lines hitting them, and weights, lures, flies, and baits floating at/into/past them 100's of times in a day. 

I was told by a former DNR biologist that he figured up to 85% of spawned-out Steelhead that return to the lakes, die after they get there. They are just too stressed from spawning. And I have never caught a dropback male, either. I've never seen a "spawned-out" male caught anywhere in a lower river, or off a pier. I have seen dirt-black males spawning, that were near death. Bucks just seem to spawn til they die. This came from the man who oversaw the operation of egg taking for Salmon and Steelhead in MI for many years. He didn't spend all that much time in his office.


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## Hollandpiper (Oct 21, 2002)

Yes, many have fished to spawning Steelhead, if not all. Don't fool yourself with this being a moral dilemma. . . That is why all the fish are there. If they are not there to spawn, the would be in the Big Lake. Whether u "see" them spawning or not, they could be spawning. Let your conscious be your guide, but either way, I feel it is OK!! 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## tsr770 (Mar 3, 2010)

I'd grab a heavy rod, a big spinning reel and some 50 pound braid.... 

Not really... I would absolutely love to have a stream in my backyard where I could sit back in a chair with a beer and watch them do their thing. I would have a really hard time not trying my homemade jigs and spinners on them though.


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

I have caught many spawned out males in the lower ends of OH tribs. Never really fished low in the systems in the spring in MI, but have caught plenty of dropback males at Tippy in the spring when I used to frequent the concrete palace. If I wasn't dead set againt posting pictures on forums, I'd post a picture of a nice one I took on a No. 4 Arctic Spinner one spring that was clearly spent. Just saying they'll go for the ol' sammich when they are done doing the deed...

I'm not saying I specifically target them, they are voracious and around during most of the late winter into spring. I'd rather not catch them in favor bright & tight acrobats. That's just me though.


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## RAD FISH (Oct 17, 2006)

Treven said:


> Never really fished low in the systems in the spring in MI, but have caught plenty of dropback males at Tippy in the spring when I used to frequent the concrete palace.



:: Drop back at Tippy? Must of dropped back about 100 yrds. Sorry but catching a spent fish at or near a dam is not a drop back.


:: Now that it was brought up I can't remember catching a drop back male either. Spent male high in the system yes. But low just can't recall that happening. I watch fish drop back over the 6st dam every spring and I know some are males, maybe there just not on the bite like the females are?


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

I have caught drop-back spent out Bucks on swung flies in May, many many times...

On average, especially the larger Bucks, they will deplete every last bit of gas they have in em during the spawn, but most certainly, some do drop-back, whether they make it back to spawn again, who knows...


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

RAD FISH said:


> :: Drop back at Tippy? Must of dropped back about 100 yrds. Sorry but catching a spent fish at or near a dam is not a drop back.
> 
> 
> :: Now that it was brought up I can't remember catching a drop back male either. Spent male high in the system yes. But low just can't recall that happening. I watch fish drop back over the 6st dam every spring and I know some are males, maybe there just not on the bite like the females are?


My bad, didn't realize there was a distance constraint. Please forgive me, for I am ignorant...

So do the dropbacks I've caught in Suicide, Sawdust, and High Bridge areas of the river count? Just want to clarify. Sorry...


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## mark (Feb 4, 2000)

Boozer said:


> I have caught drop-back spent out Bucks on swung flies in May, many many times...
> 
> On average, especially the larger Bucks, they will deplete every last bit of gas they have in em during the spawn, but most certainly, some do drop-back, whether they make it back to spawn again, who knows...


i remember just a few years ago a bunch of guys from ohio thought they were "tearing up" the skamania at a certain creek mouth above the dam when the ladder was closed for lamprey trapping. lots of dropbacks for the world to see! lots of laughs watching those goons too


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

I fogot about that, ha ha ha!


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## pikedevil (Feb 11, 2003)

Fishndude said:


> I was told by a former DNR biologist that he figured up to 85% of spawned-out Steelhead that return to the lakes, die after they get there. They are just too stressed from spawning. And I have never caught a dropback male, either. I've never seen a "spawned-out" male caught anywhere in a lower river, or off a pier. I have seen dirt-black males spawning, that were near death. Bucks just seem to spawn til they die. This came from the man who oversaw the operation of egg taking for Salmon and Steelhead in MI for many years. He didn't spend all that much time in his office.


People trolling in lake michigan catch post spawn males all the time. The 85% figure gets misquoted frequently as well. What it actually means is that only around 15% of spawning steelhead will live to spawn 2 or more times in their life. This is for lake michigan, the percentage of repeat spawners on lake superior for example is much higher. Why do only 15% make it back? Mostly because they are harvested by people before they get a chance to spawn again. The stressors of spawning and dropping back kill some but its not as many as you seem to be suggesting and nor does the sex of the fish seem to matter in drop back survival.

The reason people dont catch very many "drop back" males is because males tend to spawn like crazy untill they have no more sperm and then pretty much just zoom back to the lake stopping very little. Hens on the other hand often linger in the area they spawned for some time before slowly dropping back down the river. Why the difference I have no idea. Once the males get back to the lake though their colors start returning to silver immediately and they put on the feed heavily. We have caught hundreds of male steelhead trolling on the big lake that had obviously spawned the previous spring.


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## RAD FISH (Oct 17, 2006)

Treven said:


> My bad, didn't realize there was a distance constraint. Please forgive me, for I am ignorant...
> 
> So do the dropbacks I've caught in Suicide, Sawdust, and High Bridge areas of the river count? Just want to clarify. Sorry...




:: Treven I wasn't trying to insinuate you are ignorant or anything by any means.Sorry. And im sure a ton of droppies go back through the places you mentioned just not going to be actual drop back fish at an impassable dam is all im trying to say. 


:: Another thing is it's a lot easier to tell a drop back female from a male. The hens are spent and have turned silver again, the bucks not so easy to tell apart from males still active.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

mark said:


> i remember just a few years ago a bunch of guys from ohio thought they were "tearing up" the skamania at a certain creek mouth above the dam when the ladder was closed for lamprey trapping. lots of dropbacks for the world to see! lots of laughs watching those goons too



hahahahahahaha :lol:


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

Most likely they are not reproducing anyway so you might as well catch them. Someone spent a lot of time and money so those would end up therefor you to catch. So get out there and catch a few.


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## mark (Feb 4, 2000)

Lumberman said:


> Most likely they are not reproducing anyway so you might as well catch them. Someone spent a lot of time and money so those would end up therefor you to catch. So get out there and catch a few.


a few laughs or a few fish?:lol:


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## Hollandpiper (Oct 21, 2002)

RAD FISH said:


> :: Drop back at Tippy? Must of dropped back about 100 yrds. Sorry but catching a spent fish at or near a dam is not a drop back.
> 
> 
> :: Now that it was brought up I can't remember catching a drop back male either. Spent male high in the system yes. But low just can't recall that happening. I watch fish drop back over the 6st dam every spring and I know some are males, maybe there just not on the bite like the females are?


Please define "DROP BACK MALE".


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## Hollandpiper (Oct 21, 2002)

Regarding the die off rate, this is from the DNR website:

Great Lakes steelhead enter their spawning streams from late October to early May. At the present most spawning occurs in the spring, although more steelhead are beginning to spawn in fall. Spawning takes place in a bed of fine gravel, usually in a riffle above a pool. _*Steelhead don't necessarily die after this; they may live to reproduce for as many as five successive years. *_Most rainbow trout return home to spawn in the stream in which they were born or planted. 

This sounds like a lot less than a 85% die of rate!?!?!


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## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

Hollandpiper said:


> Please define "DROP BACK MALE".


A drop back is a fish that is done spawning and dropped back down the river to the lake to feed and regain its strength.


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

RAD FISH said:


> :: Another thing is it's a lot easier to tell a drop back female from a male. The hens are spent and have turned silver again, the bucks not so easy to tell apart from males still active.


While I agree with your above statement, when a spent male's belly "hang like sleeve of wizard" and if no milt shoots out upon handling, I declare him spent and a dropback. Nothing scientific on my end, but nobody argues with it in person.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

This is west coast stuff and may not be what happens here, but maybe can add a bit of systematic observation here:
_A large proportion of repeat spawners are female, between 70 and 100 percent in most years. Females generally leave spawning areas shortly after all of their eggs have been deposited. Males stay on spawning grounds longer, spawning with multiple females and defending redds, and therefore undergo a longer period of post-spawner stress. Tom Cropp,
Regional Fish Biologist for the Green/Duwamish basin, observed that virtually 100 percent of repeat spawners on the Green River are female._


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## moreychuck (Aug 19, 2006)

hello 
for several years i was in and out of Michigan city working I thought about trying for the steal there but never did. I have a fishing rod with me all the time but didnt dig the scene there but it was tempting
Mamee walleye rod banging would be interesting but just not my idea of fishing 
I have been told the In fish dont reproduce are all planters you should check with local biologist either way taking a few fish wont hurt anything


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