# Killing of hunting dog



## Beagle (Dec 27, 2001)

I am hunting on State Land or Land that I have permission to hunt.

My beagle trails a rabbit onto an adjoining piece of property.

Landowner shoots beagle

Is there a specific law that relates to the killing of my hunting dog by the property owner?

I need the specific law to help the local law enforcement or any laws that anyone has seen used.

Thanks in advance


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Hopefully this is a question you wonder about and not personal experience but it is illegal to shoot a dog in this manner and the property owner should be prosecuted and the owner should be reimbursed 

Ganzer


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## Beagle (Dec 27, 2001)

Thanks for the reply...

Personal experience with a person near my property which adjoins state land and this persons property that has "threatened"

I want to educate him on the law

People have said it is illigal, but I cannot find any specific law...


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## Bonz 54 (Apr 17, 2005)

Beagle,

I would think an "Introduction" is in order with you, this "Neighbor" and the local CO and anyother LEO that would like to tag along. :rant: FRANK.


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## SPH (Jan 20, 2004)

There are actual law suites that have went through court and individuals had to reinburse the cost of the hunting dog. Get your hands on these court cases and the amount it costs to replace a good hunting dog and he will think twice about it.


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Make a report with your local agency. Not only will this document the threat, it will show intent if (God forbid) he did harm your dog(s).


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## Beagle (Dec 27, 2001)

We have been through all the "formalities"

We are dealing with a person that does not respond to reason..."the boy just aint right"

Anyway....I want to cover all my basis...

I am trying to NOT get into a border war and not get any of my dogs killed.

There is a long convoluted story that if I get time I will type up...


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## timberdoodle528 (Nov 25, 2003)

Hey Rob... 

As I know the whole story... I can't believe this guy is threatening to shoot your dogs. He better just worry about his own dogs and the problems they've caused you. Sounds like a real jerk... bummer he's your nieghbor.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

http://www.animallaw.info/pleadings/table_pb.htm

http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cruelty/mi_cruel.htm

http://www.mlive.com/news/fljournal/index.ssf?/base/news-39/1158412816113810.xml&coll=5


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## Tujax (Mar 23, 2005)

This is from the DNR website, pertains to deer but usfull info



The Dog Law provides the following:

"A law enforcement officer may kill a dog determined to be molesting wildlife and not hunting as defined in this act."

Thus, no one other than a law enforcement officer is permitted by law to shoot a dog running deer.

If you have a problem with dogs running on your property, I would advise contacting local animal control as the owners may be allowing the dogs to run in violation of the Dog Law.

Also, you may want to be advised of the following provision of the Dog Law which you may want to discuss with local animal control officials:

"Any person including a law enforcement officer may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing, worrying, or wounding any livestock or poultry or attacking persons, and there shall be no liability on such person in damages or otherwise, for such killing. Any dog that enters any field or enclosure which is owned by or leased by a person producing livestock or poultry, outside of a city, unaccompanied by his owner or his owner's agent, shall constitute a trespass, and the owner shall be liable in damages."


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

http://www.h4ha.org/stopcruelty/laws/usa/michigan.html


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

Would give you the MCL number, but books are at work.......but it is illegal to shoot a dog based on the information that initiates this thread.

The best piece of advice I have seen yet is contact your local jurisdiction and have them accompany you for a quick discussion with your neighbor.


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## motcityman (Apr 4, 2006)

call the cops and put it on record that the neighbor wants to kill your dogs and is crazy. Tell the neighbor in front of the police that if anything happens to your dogs. The neighbor will loose all his weapons.And have the police doc it. Then go to the court and tell them that there is a crazy man living there and doc it..that way you are covered and if anything happens you can have him in Jail and sue to take his guns as payment...THIS IS WHAT A FRIEND DID AND HE NOW HAS NEW DOG(BUMMER OVER LOSE), MANY MORE GUNS AND HE ALSO HAS HUNTING PERMISSION FROM THE COURTS to the guys property for what ever he wants..the neightbor lost big time...this all went down in the UP I think about 10 years ago now..


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## BuckJohnson (Sep 7, 2006)

*287.279 Killing of dog pursuing, worrying, or wounding livestock or poultry, or attacking person; damages for trespass; effect of license tag.* 
Sec. 19.
Any person including a law enforcement officer may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing, worrying, or wounding any livestock or poultry or attacking persons, and there shall be no liability on such person in damages or otherwise, for such killing. Any dog that enters any field or enclosure which is owned by or leased by a person producing livestock or poultry, outside of a city, unaccompanied by his owner or his owner's agent, shall constitute a trespass, and the owner shall be liable in damages. Except as provided in this section, it shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to kill or injure or attempt to kill or injure any dog which bears a license tag for the current year.

A four year felony. Amount of fine unknown.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Keep your dogs off his property.....Problem solved.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Neal said:


> Keep your dogs off his property.....Problem solved.


Yeah, teach the rabbits and dogs to read


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

You guys are discussing what to do after the fact. I would be more worried about my dog being shot, than what I'm gonna do after he's dead.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

If the guy, nuts or not, has voiced concerns about your dogs on his property, don't invite trouble and keep them off.

I have people turn their dogs loose all the time on my property as we have acreage on the edge of the village. I talk to them, I logic with them, I call the police on them, and it doesn't help. I love having dog crap in my yard. I love reseeding my yard after they run through it. I love having them drag salmon carcasses out of the woods and into my yards.

I finally cured this by putting up a sign "traps set on property, please keep your dogs leashed".

It's not the same as hunting dogs, but try to see his side of it.

As for hunting dogs, don't get me started when you wake up and find a guy with an orange coat and a .308 leaning against the telephone pole on the corner of your property 40' from the house as the dogs are being let loose on a track on the other side of the 40 acres.....


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## timberdoodle528 (Nov 25, 2003)

Neal said:


> Keep your dogs off his property.....Problem solved.


Seems simple enough doesn't it Neal?

The thing here is, Rob isn't doing anything wrong - the law is on his side here as long as his dogs aren't persuing livestock or people.

If I had a real nice place to run my dogs right by my house, I wouldn't want to quit running there just because of some un-educated jerk - AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO EITHER.

There's a risk of something happening to your dog every time you release it to hunt. Cars, coyotes, ignorant people, wolves, snares, fences, porcupines...ect. You can't just quit running dogs because of the fear of something happening to them. 

Hopefully you can educate your neighbor on this matter, and I'm sure (NEAL) that Rob does try to prevent his dogs from going on his property - but under certain circumstances.... sometimes it's probably out of his hands.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

FREEPOP said:


> Yeah, teach the rabbits and dogs to read


I bet setters could read if you ever let them 

Tough issue when you got jerks for neighbors just be careful and use the law to help you 

Ganzer


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## Jason Adam (Jun 27, 2001)

MERGANZER said:


> OKAY for the record that is not the attitude that dog handlers take and obviously you never owned a dog or hunted a dog etc. Do you think that a beagle is 5 feet in front of the owner on a leash while runnin rabbits:lol: Gimme a break I respect people and their property and avoid private lands where i have no permission to be on but some of these attitudes from anti dog people are ridiculous. If you buy a home up north in bear country there is a possibility you may have bear dogs on your property ACCIDENTALLY from time to time just as if you buy a house next to the train tracks its gonna be loud sometimes. Nobody I have ever known looks and says wow theres some private ground we can throw the dogs on so we can anger the owners and possibly have a confrontation I bet you would deny access to a guy who had a deer run onto your property too after being shot huh


A.) I did not mean to imply that it is the additude of all dog handlers.

B.) "If you buy a home up north in bear country there is a possibility you may have bear dogs on your property ACCIDENTALLY from time to time just as if you buy a house next to the train tracks its gonna be loud sometimes." 
This is apples to pickup trucks. The train tracks were there when I bought the property, I knew that and have no problem with that. You tresspassing on MY property is a whole different issue.

C.) "I bet you would deny access to a guy who had a deer run onto your property too after being shot huh" 
Actually, I would have Zero problem with someone retrieving game on my property. I would have Zero problem with someone running dogs on my property, so long as they ASK FIRST. What is so difficult about that concept. If the person does say no, KEEP YOUR DOGS OFF THEIR PROPERTY!!!... Its no different than me driving through your woods on my four wheeler. It's tresspassing(although apparently not as far as the law is concerned) on PRIVATE Property. I have no right to go walk through your back yard at anytime for any reason if you dont want me there....


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## tgafish (Jan 19, 2001)

First of all it looks like the original question has been answered. Although I think a grey area would be the guy saying he was fearful that the dog was going to bite him. He's the only one there so noboby could say the dog wasn't acting aggressively.

Second, in essence I concur with Jason's statement in that it's the owners responsibility. I think the bullet thought that he had was right on. I also don't run dogs. I would have no problem with someone running dogs on my property if they were to call me or conatct me someway before and let me know that there is a possibility that they're dogs might get onto my property on a certain day. Maybe I'll be using my property in a certain way that day that I don't want dogs running bunnies. Sounds like this sort of action was taken but the landowner was not happy with it.

I'm also with neal in that I think the laws are screwed up on tresspassing to locate dogs. You should at least have to make an effort to contact the land owner. If land owner is not home you would have to leave a note with all your info. Sounds like a hassle but it's also a hassle for that land owner to have you walking their property without permission.


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## Jason Adam (Jun 27, 2001)

CaptainNorthwood said:


> Brilliant! You obviosly havent been around many beagles.


Nope, sure havent. Doesnt matter. What matters is YOU keeping YOUR DOGS under control and off PRIVATE PROPERTY where the owner has asked you to do so.



pescadero said:


> So you're advocating the complete cessation of all dog hunting in Michigans lower penninsula?


Nope, What I'm advocating is YOU keeping YOUR DOGS under control and off PRIVATE PROPERTY where the owner has asked you to do so.

I'm pretty sure If I showed up in your back yard at your house and you asked me to leave, and I decided I have the "right" to be there, you would change your story. I'm not Anti-Dog, Anti-Dog Hunting, Anti-anything, except Anti-people tresspassing on private property that they have been asked to stay off of. The guy in the original question has made it clear he does not want the dogs on HIS PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!! I certainly do not think the guy should shoot the dogs, but have some respect for the guy and keep your dogs away...


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

My comments are not necessarily based on the original post, although it does appear with the existence of this thread that he intends on running his dogs in the same location.

The info provided above, on what to do after the dog is dead is accurate, but remember proving what happened in court is a different story, unless you have an eye witness.


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

Jason Adam said:


> Just cause its the law, doesnt make it ethical or right...... The indians are within their "rights" to set nets across recreational fishing waters throughout the state raping our resources and endangering sportsman. They are also within their "rights" to stand on the shore and snag all the fish they want, etc.. Dont want to turn this into a netting/indian bashing thread. Just pointing out the the "law" isnt always "right"....



For not wanting to start an "netting/indian bashing thread" that was one hell of a start! Your statement shows that you know nothing about the current laws governing Indian fishing.


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## Jason Adam (Jun 27, 2001)

Biggbear said:


> For not wanting to start an "netting/indian bashing thread" that was one hell of a start! Your statement shows that you know nothing about the current laws governing Indian fishing.


What they are doing is a fact. The point that it is not "right" is certainly my opinion. Clearly your opinion is different. Ask the people who have lost their boats or their lives to indian nets in lake michigan, or the people who have stood in at the power plant in Sault St Marie while "native americans" are whipping them with snagging rods in the pressense of a CO if it is "right"... 

"Your statement shows that you know nothing about the current laws governing Indian fishing."  Try Again....

I've said all I need to say on the dog thing, and don't really want to fight out another netting thread on someone elses question... I hope your dogs dont get shot...


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Can we keep this on subject please?


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## Beave (Aug 26, 2002)

It sounds like this has been answered. Legally he can't shoot your dog(s). Legally he also has rights to ask you to keep your dogs off his land, and if it happens repeatedly you could be ticketed.

As Jason said though, this is an area where the laws favor the hunters, and frankly, some people take advantage of it and give all of us a bad name. We've had more than one thread here in the past where people with hounds freely admitted they'll loose their dogs on people's land and follow in a truck because they know there's nothing the landowner can do about it. As long as the dog owner stays off the property they're pretty much immune to any tickets or prosecution without written warnings ahead of time.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

And we all wonder how Michigan has declining hunter numbers year after year 

really too bad IMO:sad: 

Ganzer


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Jason Adam said:


> A.) I did not mean to imply that it is the additude of all dog handlers.
> 
> B.) "If you buy a home up north in bear country there is a possibility you may have bear dogs on your property ACCIDENTALLY from time to time just as if you buy a house next to the train tracks its gonna be loud sometimes."
> This is apples to pickup trucks. The train tracks were there when I bought the property, I knew that and have no problem with that. You tresspassing on MY property is a whole different issue.


The problem seems to be that legally it *isn't* trespassing on your property. You believe it *should *be trespassing, but it is not.



Jason Adam said:


> C.) "I bet you would deny access to a guy who had a deer run onto your property too after being shot huh"
> Actually, I would have Zero problem with someone retrieving game on my property. I would have Zero problem with someone running dogs on my property, so long as they ASK FIRST. What is so difficult about that concept. If the person does say no, KEEP YOUR DOGS OFF THEIR PROPERTY!!!... Its no different than me driving through your woods on my four wheeler. It's tresspassing(although apparently not as far as the law is concerned) on PRIVATE Property. I have no right to go walk through your back yard at anytime for any reason if you dont want me there....


Maybe right, maybe wrong - see:

public easements, especially by prescription
Great Lakes beach frontage
Navigable rivers
Fishing/anchoring rights to littoral lands on public lakes.
etc.

You may or may not have a right to "go walk through" anyones "back yard at anytime for any reason" even if they "dont want you there".


-- 
lp


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## Beagle (Dec 27, 2001)

Damn guys and Megthis sure did grow legs since I have last been on the internet.

Hey NealNice to see you again!!!

I really was just trying to find the laws to deal with a no win situation for me. It truely is a no win situation for me...

Its too bad it turned into Houndsman v. other Hunters....don't need that kind of BS !!!

Megan already knew the whole story, but here it is for others. I was not going to post specifics, but feel I need to in this situation.

I have not even read all four pages of responses

Anyway here is the whole story. Read it carefully

Within the last 1 ½ yrs my brother and I bought 30 acres and both built houses on it.

The problem neighbor is next door to the East. He owns a double wide on a lot (NOT ACREAGE).

State land is across the road to the South. 1 ½ miles deep to the south south and 3 miles wide East and West

For us, it was a dreamto own some property of our own.plus have easy access to the State land.

We obviously raise beagles.

The property is at the end of a gravel dead end roadperfect for running dogs. Part of the reason we bought it.

The main problem is his dogs. He owns a chow and several inbred chow mixes descended from that chow that all roam freely.

Shortly after we bought the property my champion male and a female were running on our property. 

I was about 40 yards away.

The chow and company ambushed them (mainly attacking the male). Had it not been for the female jumping in and distracting them for a moment they would have killed him. The guys son immediately came running across the property to retrieve his dogs.

My dogs were on my property.

Anyway $400 in vet bills later the male is fine and back to normal.

Not wanting to start a border war, since we plan to live there for a while. I bargained with the guy (white trash to a tee). Keep the menaces on a chain and I wont involve the law.

He complied for a while but soon they were running lose again.

They have since attacked my brothers dog (lab mix) and many other times I have chased them off from coming after my beagles.

The final straw was last week when they attacked my wifes house dog, a male boxer. He is never loose, but was out on his chain. He managed to break the chain. He was not off for more than 10 minutes and they jumped him. They ripped his butt up, but he managed to get away. Another big vet bill

So we now have the law involved. Not only are we worried about the dogs but our children as well.

The sheriff has warned him that we can legally kill his dogs on our property if they are attacking our dogs and said that if they are not chained up the next step will be prosecution under the leash law.

Being the idiot that he is, he basically said that if his dogs get shot, he will shoot our beagles if they cross his property

I just wanted all the specific laws pertaining to this to help our local law enforcement accurately educate this person on the consequences of his actions.



WHITE TRASH + VISCIOUS DOGS = NO WIN FOR BEAGLE


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Jason Adam said:


> Nope, What I'm advocating is YOU keeping YOUR DOGS under control and off PRIVATE PROPERTY where the owner has asked you to do so.


No, you aren't.



Jason Adam said:


> Take the dog to some land where there isnt a chance of YOU and IT tresspassing on someones land...


There exists basically no land in the majority of Michigans lower penninsula where "there isnt a chance of YOU and IT tresspassing on someones land..." - you've de facto ruled out all dog hunting in the LP.



Jason Adam said:


> I'm pretty sure If I showed up in your back yard at your house and you asked me to leave, and I decided I have the "right" to be there, you would change your story.


I think you are very confused about the actual law. If you see someone and ask them to leave, they can no longer enter your property to retrieve their dog - at that juncture or in the future. Barring specific cases where the "trespasser" was "previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner or his or her lessee or agent" they are allowed.




Jason Adam said:


> I'm not Anti-Dog, Anti-Dog Hunting, Anti-anything, except Anti-people tresspassing on private property that they have been asked to stay off of.


Then you should have no issues with the law as it now stands.



Jason Adam said:


> The guy in the original question has made it clear he does not want the dogs on HIS PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!! I certainly do not think the guy should shoot the dogs, but have some respect for the guy and keep your dogs away...


All the neighbor has to do is make an oral or written request to stay off his property. If the dog owner then enters, he can be prosecuted for trespassing. If the dog enters he can call animal control. He still has no legal right to shoot the dog.

-- 
lp


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## Jason Adam (Jun 27, 2001)

MERGANZER said:


> And we all wonder how Michigan has declining hunter numbers year after year
> 
> really too bad IMO:sad:
> 
> Ganzer


Right on, Too bad "sportsman" cant repect people requests regarding their PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

That sucks. There always has to be one of them, in every area. Again my comments weren't directed so much at your situation. You did the right thing by making the report, now there is documentation backing your case and future cases, if any.

If you have to shoot one of his dogs in defense of your property, make sure to report it immediately and take pics of anything that proves your story. Otherwise you might find that he goes after you for shooting a trespassing dog.

As you know we have a place between Deford and Caro, in all my years there I have never seen a rabbit on the property. I have been doing habitat improvement, including brush piles, but still nothing.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Jason Adam said:


> Right on, Too bad "sportsman" cant repect people requests regarding their PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!


Obviously you haven't been reading and you just want to be argumentative on this issue. The law is there and it should be followed by both sides. In a perfect world dogs would read and listen and not poop in the yard and not need to be fed etc but this world isn't perfect. God bless your neighbors they must be perfect

GANZER


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> Then you should have no issues with the law as it now stands.


That clears thing up a little for me, but I still have an issues with the law.

A. It still doesn't keep the dogs off my property, and doesn't discourage hunters from letting them do so.

B. I shouldn't have to tell someone verbally or written to stay off my property. It is posted.....there's the written notice.


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## Jason Adam (Jun 27, 2001)

pescadero said:


> No, you aren't.


Yes I am... Thats exacatlly what I'm advocating.....




pescadero said:


> There exists basically no land in the majority of Michigans lower penninsula where "there isnt a chance of YOU and IT tresspassing on someones land..." - you've de facto ruled out all dog hunting in the LP.


Sure there is, so long as your dog is under control, and if your statement was true, then FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO RUN DOGS!!!!



pescadero said:


> I think you are very confused about the actual law. If you see someone and ask them to leave, they can no longer enter your property to retrieve their dog - at that juncture or in the future. Barring specific cases where the "trespasser" was "previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner or his or her lessee or agent" they are allowed.
> .
> All the neighbor has to do is make an oral or written request to stay off his property. If the dog owner then enters, he can be prosecuted for trespassing. If the dog enters he can call animal control. He still has no legal right to shoot the dog.


Regardless of whether the "hunter" or "dog runner" ever steps foot on the property, Why on earth do you believe you should have the right to let your dogs run wild on someone elses PRIVATE PROPERTY???? I cant even believe that there is a ethical sportsman anywhere that is willing to stand up and say "I should be able to let my dogs run all over your PRIVATE PROPERTY, even if you dont want them there..." That is the most ludacris arrogant view on anything I have ever seen on tis site... As I said before, just cause its the law, doesnt make it right.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Please grace us with your definition of under control is please cause you keep throwing that out there and hunting breeds are released to find point run circle game they are not in sight much of the time so please tell us 

Ganzer


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Neal said:


> That clears thing up a little for me, but I still have an issues with the law.
> 
> A. It still doesn't keep the dogs off my property, and doesn't discourage hunters from letting them do so.


You are asking for the impossible. No one is going to write a law that says an otherwise law abiding dog owner who's dog enters your property is guilty of trespassing. It is a Pandoras box on the trespassing front and will never happen.



Neal said:


> B. I shouldn't have to tell someone verbally or written to stay off my property. It is posted.....there's the written notice.


Your argument is with the legal system then, as they do not agree.

-- 
lp


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Jason Adam said:


> Yes I am... Thats exacatlly what I'm advocating.....
> 
> Sure there is, so long as your dog is under control, and if your statement was true, then FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO RUN DOGS!!!!


So you are advocating that no one be allowed to hunt with dogs in the LP. Just admit the consequences of your demands. 

No hunting dog that is running animals (rabbits, *****, etc) is EVER going to be under complete control. The only way to guarantee the dog will not enter private property is to hunt where there is no possibility of the dog entering private property. Requiring hunting dogs to only be hunted in such areas means you can throw out all of the SLP, and a lot of the NLP.

If someone is repeatedly abusing the dog fetching exception, the law already has a mechanism in place for dealing with it.



Jason Adam said:


> Regardless of whether the "hunter" or "dog runner" ever steps foot on the property, Why on earth do you believe you should have the right to let your dogs run wild on someone elses PRIVATE PROPERTY????


No one has said they believe that, and the law doesn't allow that. What the law does allow is the retrieval of a dog engaged in legal hunting activites from a private property onto which it has entered. They have no "right" to be there or to "hunt" there. The dog owner has the right (and this right can be terminated by the property owner if abused) to retrieve their dog. That is all. 



Jason Adam said:


> I cant even believe that there is a ethical sportsman anywhere that is willing to stand up and say "I should be able to let my dogs run all over your PRIVATE PROPERTY, even if you dont want them there..."


Don't let the fact that no one has actually said anything like that get in the way of a good rant. 



Jason Adam said:


> That is the most ludacris arrogant view on anything I have ever seen on tis site... As I said before, just cause its the law, doesnt make it right.


It isn't even the law... it's just a strawman with a really purty mouth.

-- 
lp


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