# Open carry



## banneryear03 (Feb 6, 2008)

Was just watching fox 2 news about open carry and was curious how many of you practice this law? And what cities you have carried in? From what i understand a cpl is not needed to carry in plain veiw. Also were have you carried in plain view. Bussiness names etc.... Anybody have any good advise on this law? I live in belleville and now wonder if i can carry in places like meijer,walmart(openly) im very interested in this topic and any information on it would be appreciated. P.S i know parts of this post should be in the law section but i know this one gets a few more looks  Banner


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## KeithD (Mar 8, 2010)

Not in a huge habit of doing it, but have once in a while. Walmarts usual corprate police is to follow local and state laws in which the store resides. So if its legal to do in the state, they are cool with it.
.
That doesnt mean you might not run in to a employee or manager that doestn know that and they may ask you to leave.

And since private property rights prevail if a buisness owner askes you to leave you have to or else face possible trespassing charges.

you are correct that you do not need a cpl to open carry, but remember if the pistol is in your vehicle it is considered concealed and is a big no no if you do not posses your CPL.

For a good place to get info on open carry visit:

www . opencarry . org

Keith


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

Lots of information in this thread about open carry....

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291422&highlight=open+carry


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## littlebuck (Jan 9, 2009)

If you want to carry go out and take the CPL course and conceal carry, I took it on a saturday morning and had my cpl in 4 weeks. I know it is legal to open carry, but it causes to much turmoil from people that don't know the law.


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

Littlebuck,

Even with a CPL you still HAVE to open carry in certain areas, or if caught CCing, you will be cited.

What if the person doesn't have the money to take the class and pay the lisence fee? Only option would be to OC. It's really stupid that you have to pay for a right? Isn't it?

join opencarry.org. There is a lot of information over there



QUOTE=littlebuck;3116233]If you want to carry go out and take the CPL course and conceal carry, I took it on a saturday morning and had my cpl in 4 weeks. I know it is legal to open carry, but it causes to much turmoil from people that don't know the law.[/QUOTE]


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## Rootsy (Nov 1, 2006)

There is no law that "allows" open carry.. Rather there is no law prohibiting it and our state constitution states...

Article I, Section 6

§ 6 Bearing of arms.
Sec. 6. Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the
state.
History: Const. 1963, Art. I, §6, Eff. Jan. 1, 1964.
Former Constitution: See Const. 1908, Art. II, §5.


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## jaywkr (Apr 7, 2008)

littlebuck said:


> If you want to carry go out and take the CPL course and conceal carry, I took it on a saturday morning and had my cpl in 4 weeks. I know it is legal to open carry, but it causes to much turmoil from people that don't know the law.


 Just because people don't know the law doesn't mean you should hide that you are carrying. Lots of people don't understand trapping does that mean we should sneak around while doing it so not to cause any problems? Know the law and what your rights are and open carry if you want. Check out migunowners.org.


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## Flash (Jan 17, 2006)

I have struggled with the practice of open carry due to the problems associated with the following;
If one has a legitimate CCW permit, is carrying concealed and through carelessness or lack of awareness "shows" the pistol (even a portion - like a grip or holster) then they are at risk of being charged with Brandishing.
Yet if one chooses to openly carry, then that is not "brandishing".

Seems odd to me.

If alarm is caused by the inadvertant display of a grip/hoslter, then how could alarm not be caused by the blatant display of open carry?

The other item is the element of surprise. Open carry leaves no doubt in a predators mind who has to be neutralized first. 

just sayin...

It matters not to me whether one chooses to openly carry or not - but I would not be comfortable doing it. I literally do everything in my power to be as inconspicuous as possible.


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## KeithD (Mar 8, 2010)

Since we are an open carry state, regardless if your carrying concealed and your coat comes open, or your shirt comes up and the pistol is shown, that is not brandishing.


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## KalamazooKid (Jun 20, 2005)

Going along with Flash above, I just don't see why you'd want someone to know you've got a gun? If it's legal (which it is) then go ahead and do it, no problem. But you'll always have to be concerned about where you can and where you can't - I just don't get it. And yes, I do understand that there's a short list of places you can't cc too, just not many. 

But other than the fact that some can't afford the class, why not conceal? Plus if you shop around, the class can be taken for $100 or slightly more - save up and do it.


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## Flash (Jan 17, 2006)

KeithD said:


> Since we are an open carry state, regardless if your carrying concealed and your coat comes open, or your shirt comes up and the pistol is shown, that is not brandishing.


Are you sure?

Granted, I have been licensed since before the shall issue laws took effect, and I may have an old understanding (as I am old), but at least in the early 90's - brandishing was a charge that could be leveled by LEO's if you were spotted by a "concerned citizen" and reported. Even for such a simple infraction as having your cover garment temporarily expose your sidearm.

However, maybe the law has changed.


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

Keith should know, as he is a CPL instructor. If he is the Keith D I think he is.

When I took my CPL class it was explained like that. With the side note of, but be ready for the cops to come and talk to you for a while.....

What I took from it was, while open carry is technically ok, don't do it unless you get off on talking to cops and having people freak out.


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## Rootsy (Nov 1, 2006)

bran·dish (br







n







dish)_tr.v._ *bran·dished*, *bran·dish·ing*, *bran·dish·es* 
*1. * To wave or flourish (a weapon, for example) menacingly.
*2. * To display ostentatiously. See Synonyms at flourish.

_n._ A menacing or defiant wave or flourish.


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

Rootsy said:


> bran·dish (br
> 
> 
> 
> ...


too bad that isn't what the state of MI goes by...


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

Rootsy said:


> bran·dish (br
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is correct. If the firearm is in a holster, it is NOT considered brandishing. You must have it out and "waiving" or presenting it in a menacing manner, out of the holster. 

If you are stopped, you don't have to give the police any identification either. Although, cooperation is a welcomed. A Terry stop is against the law and the police need reasonable articulated suspicion in order to stop you, and an openly carried gun is NOT RAS that a crime is being committed...


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## banneryear03 (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks for the links and replys keep them coming very interesting reading other peoples view. Another question so if i dont have a cpl and wish to open carry at walmart for example would i have to keep my pistol in my trunk unloaded until i reached walmart then go to the trunk load it, then holster it? Seems most of the laws have ranges,gundealers,police posts etc.... As the legal places you can carry to and from. Thanks again for the replys.  Banner


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## KeithD (Mar 8, 2010)

Flash said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> Granted, I have been licensed since before the shall issue laws took effect, and I may have an old understanding (as I am old), but at least in the early 90's - brandishing was a charge that could be leveled by LEO's if you were spotted by a "concerned citizen" and reported. Even for such a simple infraction as having your cover garment temporarily expose your sidearm.
> 
> However, maybe the law has changed.


 
Yes, but it is a complicated issue. There is no legal definition of brandishing, so in that instance the courts are supposed to go to the dictionary definition, which has been stated above.

There are a still alot of instructors out there that tell there students that once they have their CPL's they HAVE to conceal, or if any parts shown they're going to get tagged for brandishing. Both are false.

Groups like open carry .org have done a great job at getting information out to law enforcement agencies, prosecuting attorneys and the general public concerning open carry.

my feelings on it are this, it is the right of the people to keep and bare arms. So i dont have a problem with it. You can sit and debate the element of surprise vs the deterrent factor all day long, that doesnt change the fact that it is still a right. 



Keith


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## uncletj (Aug 30, 2005)

banneryear03 said:


> Another question so if i dont have a cpl and wish to open carry at walmart for example would i have to keep my pistol in my trunk unloaded until i reached walmart then go to the trunk load it, then holster it?


That is correct


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## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

Interesting guys... Keep it going. I am a CPL holder and can probably learn a bit more by reading threads like this. 

Jeff


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

IMHO - Open Carry will do more to hurt our right to carry (open or concealed) than help it.

Take the class, get your ID, wear a coat or untuck your shirt and cover it up.

All Open Carry does is cause panic and give a property owner reason to hang a No Weapons sign up.


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## 3fingervic (Jan 28, 2009)

Flash said:


> I have struggled with the practice of open carry due to the problems associated with the following;
> If one has a legitimate CCW permit, is carrying concealed and through carelessness or lack of awareness "shows" the pistol (even a portion - like a grip or holster) then they are at risk of being charged with Brandishing.
> Yet if one chooses to openly carry, then that is not "brandishing".
> 
> ...


Let me start off by saying that I don't have a CPL or do I open carry. There have been studies that say in states where open carry is practiced more frequently, the crime rate is lower. Arizona is an example. I think that a predator will be less likely to rob a place if he sees someone with a pistol on his/her hip. Furthermore, I think a person would be less likely to be robbed if he/she was open carrying, a criminal would wait for the next person. 

Other posts have said that the people that open carry may hurt gun rights. That may be, but it is within thier rights and I support them. My comments are not meant to be argumentative, they are just my opinion. I know this is a sensitive subject, I don't want anyone to feel attacked.


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

banneryear03 said:


> Thanks for the links and replys keep them coming very interesting reading other peoples view. Another question so if i dont have a cpl and wish to open carry at walmart for example would i have to keep my pistol in my trunk unloaded until i reached walmart then go to the trunk load it, then holster it? Seems most of the laws have ranges,gundealers,police posts etc.... As the legal places you can carry to and from. Thanks again for the replys.  Banner





uncletj said:


> That is correct


This is partially CORRECT!!! Some/Most Walmarts sell alcohol and if you don't have your CPL you will get cited if caught carrying a firearm.

If the establishment sells alcohol, under Michigan law a person NEEDS a CPL to carry a firearm into that establishment!!! 

DO NOT carry anywhere that sells alcohol if you do NOT have your CPL


*750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.* 
Sec. 234d.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
 
*History:* Add. 1990, Act 321, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991 ;-- Am. 1992, Act 218, Imd. Eff. Oct. 13, 1992 ;-- Am. 1994, Act 158, Eff. Aug. 15, 1994 



If you HAVE your CPL these are places where you CANNOT carry CONCEALED...

*FIREARMS (EXCERPT)*
*Act 372 of 1927*

*28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; &#8220;premises&#8221; defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.*Sec. 5o.
(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
(g) A hospital.
(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
(2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.
(3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
(4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
(a) An individual licensed under this act who is a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a letter from the law enforcement agency stating that the retired police officer or law enforcement officer retired in good standing.
(b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.
(c) An individual who is licensed as a private investigator or private detective under the professional investigator licensure act, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 to 338.851.
(d) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a corrections officer of a county sheriff's department.
(e) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a motor carrier officer or capitol security officer of the department of state police.
(f) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a member of a sheriff's posse.
(g) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is an auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.
(h) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a parole or probation officer of the department of corrections.
(i) A state court judge or state court retired judge who is licensed under this act. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a state court retired judge to obtain and carry a letter from the judicial tenure commission stating that the state court retired judge is in good standing as authorized under section 30 of article VI of the state constitution of 1963, and rules promulgated under that section, in order to qualify under this subdivision.
(5) An individual who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:
(a) Except as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $500.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol suspended for 6 months.
(b) For a second violation, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $1,000.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.
(c) For a third or subsequent violation, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.

 

*History:* Add. 2000, Act 381, Eff. July 1, 2001 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 719, Eff. July 1, 2003 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 194, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 406, Imd. Eff. Jan. 6, 2009 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 407, Eff. Apr. 6, 2009 
*Popular Name:* CCW
*Popular Name:* Concealed Weapons
*Popular Name:* Right to Carry
*Popular Name:* Shall Issue


Here are the Michigan Firearms Laws...plus the Preemption law passed in 1990 states that ANY LOCAL ordinance cannot make it's own laws overseeing firearm possession or control.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(htyfv43e3pw2ab55opih3f45))/mileg.aspx?page=home Keyword Firearm


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

The way you transport, holster and carry the weapon are correct!

Just remember if the vehicle HAS a trunk, it MUST be transported in the trunk.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

Outside of carrying a firearm while backpacking, fishing, trapping, etc, in my experience, 99 percent of people who open carry are attention whores, and they get attention.


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## alex-v (Mar 24, 2005)

Rustyaxecamp said:


> too bad that isn't what the state of MI goes by...


What definition of "brandishing" does the state go by??



banneryear03 said:


> Anybody have any good advise on this law?


I am really surprised that there are all these messages and not one of them directed you to the http://opencarry.org/ website or to the Michigan Gun Owners web site.

Here are a couple of local stories from the Macomb Daily. I do not notice any doom and gloom attitudes in these articles that would lead me to believe that business owners are running to the printers for "No Guns" signs to hang on their doors.

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/2009/08/14/news/srv0000006114137.txt

The most recent news article from the Macomb Daily...

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/2010/03/08/news/srv0000007771527.txt


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

2PawsRiver said:


> Outside of carrying a firearm while backpacking, fishing, trapping, etc, in my experience, 99 percent of people who open carry are attention whores, and they get attention.


So law enforcement are attention whores?


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

2PawsRiver said:


> Outside of carrying a firearm while backpacking, fishing, trapping, etc, in my experience, 99 percent of people who open carry are attention whores, and they get attention.


  How are you doing Mark. Long time no talk to


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

mudvr1212 said:


> So law enforcement are attention whores?


A few, but technically the vast majority of law enforecement wouldn't fall into open carry. Also the vast majority of plain clothes officers carry concealed.

I did watch the videos on the open carry website and I would also have to add that most who advocate across the board open carry are overweight, have long hair or are missing a few "teef".:lol:

Just to clarify I do support the right of the individual to lawfully carry a concealed weapon and I also support the right of the individual to open carry when it is senseable.

Restrictions on open carry fall into the "Stop Sign" classification, as in stop signs exist because not everybody is smart enought to slow down and look.



GIDEON said:


> How are you doing Mark. Long time no talk to


Hey Gideon, am doing well, looking forward to spring, will have to get up your way one day. Nephew is still progressing, but still has a good ways to go.


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

2PawsRiver said:


> I did watch the videos on the open carry website and I would also have to add that most who advocate across the board open carry are overweight, have long hair or are missing a few "teef".:lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well shucks, we can't all be as perfect as you.


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## Rootsy (Nov 1, 2006)

And then there is the whole reduction in CEZ when open carrying while being a CPL holder... 

On a personal level, I conceal as I am a CPL holder. Have I openly carried? Yes. A couple of times during summer I generally will when it is too hot for a second "cover" shirt. I am not one that cares for attention so I prefer not having people stare at me... But that is my personal decision. I actually used to be extremely paranoid a number of years ago about "printing" as I was originally taught that was brandishing... Then I learned the difference and if someone has an issue with it I'll just openly carry... 

If someone wishes to openly carry that is their decision. While it is perfectly legal I do wish that those who openly carry would respect private property owners and either contact them ahead of time or conceal if they decide not to. IKEA comes to mind. One open carry incident has resulted in no weapons signs...

I actually have quite few thoughts and opinions on this subject but it'd take pages to type them all out... 

BTW, those that wish to openly carry are those practicing and standing up fo their rights in the wake of a sensitive sheeple population. For a LEO to stereotype a group like that is extremely unprofessional. I am none of the above in the list... Not fat, have short hair and believe it or not I don't so much as have a single filling in my mouth and all of the teeth God sent me here with... The real issue with open carry are the LEOs who escalate the situation due to personal bias or ignorance of the law. When dealing with someone confident enough to open carry you are dealing with someone who is willing to butt heads.


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

Justin said:


> Well shucks, we can't all be as perfect as you.


 
I'll second that!

I've also spoken with MANY more CCer's that have long hair, missing "teef" and that are obese than OCer's. Not sure that it's a OC compared to CC thing though. It's just personal preference as to how someone wants to look, I guess.

Personally if you're ALL for the 2nd amendment then you shouldn't bash someone for the way they choose to carry. :sad:


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

Rootsy said:


> And then there is the whole reduction in CEZ when open carrying while being a CPL holder...
> 
> On a personal level, I conceal as I am a CPL holder. Have I openly carried? Yes. A couple of times during summer I generally will when it is too hot for a second "cover" shirt. I am not one that cares for attention so I prefer not having people stare at me... But that is my personal decision. I actually used to be extremely paranoid a number of years ago about "printing" as I was originally taught that was brandishing... Then I learned the difference and if someone has an issue with it I'll just openly carry...
> 
> ...


 
That is very true. Just because someone is carrying a firearm does NOT mean they are a criminal. You don't need to walk up to them thinking you are "God" because you have that badge. Remember citizens pay your salary and we expect you to uphold your oath and to know the laws.


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

mudvr1212 said:


> So law enforcement are attention whores?


Save it
There's no comparison.


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## Rootsy (Nov 1, 2006)

mudvr1212 said:


> That is very true. Just because someone is carrying a firearm does NOT mean they are a criminal. You don't need to walk up to them thinking you are "God" because you have that badge. Remember citizens pay your salary and we expect you to uphold your oath and to know the laws.


I am quite sure some CCers do disregard no weapons signs. In my case I have never done so. When I encounter a no guns sign I take my business elsewhere if I have that option...


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

Rootsy said:


> I am quite sure some CCers do disregard no weapons signs. In my case I have never done so. When I encounter a no guns sign I take my business elsewhere if I have that option...


Agreed! Although, I don't think OCer's purposely try to force themselves onto business owners. If they don't see a sign stating NO firearms, they (like CCer's) just walk in and go about their business.


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## Rootsy (Nov 1, 2006)

mudvr1212 said:


> Agreed! Although, I don't think OCer's purposely try to force themselves onto business owners. If they don't see a sign stating NO firearms, they (like CCer's) just walk in and go about their business.


Valid point.

A shame that the population has become so sensitive to an inanimate object that is openly displayed in a non threatening manner.


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

sad but nonetheless true in theis modern society.

Every day it seems there is a shooting somewhere.

If you choose to OC, be prepared for the attention and talking to the boys in blue.


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

2PawsRiver said:


> I did watch the videos on the open carry website and I would also have to add that most who advocate across the board open carry are overweight, have long hair or are missing a few "teef".:lol:


Ya know what they say about stereotypes. :lol:


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

It is a shame that people see a gun and think the worst right away. Then the police get called, they show up and most will intimidate you into not carrying that way, or right you a ticket. 

Either way you carry, it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it!



NoWake...great photo! :coolgleam


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## Rootsy (Nov 1, 2006)

May I suggest that if you are going to OC... You carry a small pocket recorder... It removes the he said / she said...


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

A sensitive lot arn't you. Just for clarification I'm not an LEO, that's my occupation, does not define who I am.

Did you watch the videos, it's not stereotyping if it's true
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

2PawsRiver said:


> A sensitive lot arn't you. Just for clarification I'm not an LEO, that's my occupation, does not define who I am.
> 
> Did you watch the videos, it's not stereotyping if it's true
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FWIW it sounds like we pretty much share the same thoughts about open carry. But, You often make statements about people being too sensative, and statements about the pussification of this or that. Couldn't it be argued that those who are offended or feel threatened at the sight of someone open carrying are being too sensative? Or that they are contributing to the pussification of society?


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

Rootsy said:


> May I suggest that if you are going to OC... You carry a small pocket recorder... It removes the he said / she said...


Very good point! It's best to have the encounter recorded by yourself because when you get the FOIA for an encounter, they can "edit" it to their liking.

Also, Michigan law on recording is you only need permission from one of the parties involved.


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

2PawsRiver said:


> A sensitive lot arn't you. Just for clarification I'm not an LEO, that's my occupation, does not define who I am.
> 
> Did you watch the videos, it's not stereotyping if it's true
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not saying all are bad, but watch the video...

[ame="http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=54162036"]The Largest Street Gang in America Video by BoilingFrogs - MySpace [email protected]@[email protected]@http://mediaservices.myspace.com/Services/Media/Embed.aspx/[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@Services/Media/[email protected]@[email protected]@aspx/[email protected]@[email protected]@54162036[/ame]


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

We would agree on that. Has nothing to do with intimidation or sensitivity, it's just makes no sense. My opinion remains the same about the pussification.......just look at how many people are "harvesting" deer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

2PawsRiver said:


> We would agree on that. Has nothing to do with intimidation or sensitivity, it's just makes no sense. My opinion remains the same about the pussification.......just look at how many people are "harvesting" deer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So police openly carrying makes no sense either. If it doesn't then why does swat or any other "Tactical" team wear their sidearms in a thigh holster instead of concealing them? Faster to draw when needed. Easier to get to. Less to mess with when needed.

Have you ever carried openly?


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

2PawsRiver said:


> We would agree on that. Has nothing to do with intimidation or sensitivity, it's just makes no sense. My opinion remains the same about the pussification.......just look at how many people are "harvesting" deer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was under the impression that many of the problems associated with open carry was in fact due to others being intimidated by it,(not you) but I'll admit that I don't have any first hand experience with it. 

As far as 'Harvesting' deer goes though, you have to remember, many of the guys using that term are farming them on fence-less game farms, so harvesting may be a more accurate term. 


Hope my ribbing with the picture of the patrol cars outside the donut shop doesn't turn this thread into a anti LE thread.


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## Flash (Jan 17, 2006)

KeithD said:


> Yes, but it is a complicated issue. There is no legal definition of brandishing, so in that instance the courts are supposed to go to the dictionary definition, which has been stated above.Keith


I cannot argue against this point as I simply do not know. My training (Massad Ayoob - LFI) taught me and instilled in me the value of preparing for all elements of an encounter to include the "cognizance, contingincies, preparedness and preservation". This was defined as being prepared "before, during and after". The aftermath of any event is sometimes the least considered and in my opinion the most worthy of consideration. In other words - it may be true that an unintentional showing of your grip or holster is legally not brandishing, however for me, avoiding the unwanted attention from a "concerned citizen" or a responding LEO, or being dependent on the court system and potentially the appeals process to "get it right" - is WAY more than I want to deal with, when I can simply avoid it all in the first place. Additionally, regardless of what the law technically says, it is not out of my realm of consideration that one who openly carried could find themselves with neighbors testifying for the prosecution about how zealous you are/were, about how you strut around the neighborhood wearing your hand cannon, how you once pulled it out and threatened a dog or cat or woodchuck or minority... It just is another contingency that must be planned for in an already full plate of contingencies.

That said - as a Life/Endowment/Patron member of the NRA - I definately support your right to carry - any way you choose. :coolgleam


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## KalamazooKid (Jun 20, 2005)

:lol: Just the fact that this thread has now gone 4 pages with endless bickering blah blah blah just reinforces my opinion on concealed carry vs open carry. Go take the class!:banghead3


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

KalamazooKid said:


> :lol: Just the fact that this thread has now gone 4 pages with endless bickering blah blah blah just reinforces my opinion on concealed carry vs open carry. Go take the class!:banghead3


If you pay for the class, I'm sure Banneryear03 would go take it. 

But now how is he going to protect himself/herself until they pass the class and waits the time it takes to get their CPL?


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## banneryear03 (Feb 6, 2008)

Kalamazookid ill send you my address so you now where to send the check! (Kidding). Heres another scenerio,i have abuddy convicted of atempted assault 7 years ago in a bar fight where everybody envolved was also charged and convicted. The cpl requirments state that you cannot be convicted of assault or assault and battery witch attempted falls into that same charge within 8 years to be allegable for a cpl yet hes able to bye a handgun 2 years ago and is allowed to open carry as long as he is the registerd owner of the firearm. Kinda doesnt make alot of sense to me,just my 2 cents.Thanks for the replys wasnt trying to start a debate!  Banner


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

2PawsRiver said:


> We would agree on that. Has nothing to do with intimidation or sensitivity, it's just makes no sense. My opinion remains the same about the pussification.......just look at how many people are "harvesting" deer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I like the Phrase "culling the herd ". Although personally I would prefer to be a sportsman that hunts as opposed to a culler who harvests.


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## alex-v (Mar 24, 2005)

mudvr1212 said:


> Personally if you're ALL for the 2nd amendment then you shouldn't bash someone for the way they choose to carry. :sad:


True and an overlooked.



mudvr1212 said:


> Then the police get called, they show up and most will intimidate you into not carrying that way, or right you a ticket.


If you read many of the articles that are appearing in the newspapers all across the state in the last year or two you will see that police are not "writing tickets". Part of the purpose of the open carry groups is to educate the police on the gun laws.


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

alex-v said:


> If you read many of the articles that are appearing in the newspapers all across the state in the last year or two you will see that police are not "writing tickets". Part of the purpose of the open carry groups is to educate the police on the gun laws.


They may not be ticketing or citing, but they are illegally detaining many people. Michigan Open Carry has been sending many packets to local PD's and State posts which is helping out tremendously. The bad thing is that they may not pay any attention to it and not train their officers, or some officers are completely against people carrying in that way and will harrass you. :sad: 

Open carry or concealed carry, you pick what suits you. As long as we are excercising our right to carry, it will be harder to take it away from us.


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## banneryear03 (Feb 6, 2008)

banneryear03 said:


> Kalamazookid ill send you my address so you now where to send the check! (Kidding). Heres another scenerio,i have abuddy convicted of atempted assault 7 years ago in a bar fight where everybody envolved was also charged and convicted. The cpl requirments state that you cannot be convicted of assault or assault and battery witch attempted falls into that same charge within 8 years to be allegable for a cpl yet hes able to bye a handgun 2 years ago and is allowed to open carry as long as he is the registerd owner of the firearm. Kinda doesnt make alot of sense to me,just my 2 cents.Thanks for the replys wasnt trying to start a debate!  Banner


 Any thoughts on my last post?:help:


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## Tink (Feb 26, 2007)

Just wanted to say, since the video was here I watched it. Most distrubing video I have seen. Truly sad!


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