# Expansion in Sabots



## Kelly Johnson (May 22, 2005)

250gr Hornady SST's didn't expand for me last year.
Shot great though.

Should I just look for anything else in 250?


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## yooperkenny (Jul 13, 2004)

Try the Hornady XTPs or the Barnes loads and see how they group for ya'


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Kelly, that's why I quit shooting SST's. I had 2 deer I lost (found about a week later quite a ways away) that the hole going out was only slightly larger than the entrance wound. I switched to Barnes Expander MZ's and boy there is a difference. I shot a doe last year and it looked like a scenen out of a slasher movie. :yikes: They group better too. I'm using 300 grainers with Knight EZ Load sabots. I have shot XTP's in the past to with very good results.


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

What rate of twist is your gun!? I just bought some Expander MZ 300 gr. and they aren't recommended in my 1 in 28" rate of twist barrel...:rant: Found that out AFTER I opened them!!!


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

mudvr1212 said:


> What rate of twist is your gun!? I just bought some Expander MZ 300 gr. and they aren't recommended in my 1 in 28" rate of twist barrel...:rant: Found that out AFTER I opened them!!!


1 in 28". They're the best shooting bullet out of my gun. And believe me, I tried a WHOLE BUNCH of different bullets.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Kelly, Check out the Barnes bullets...all are good. They are the "Slick Trick" of the muzzleloading world! :lol:


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## salmon_slayer06 (Mar 19, 2006)

Barnes all the way. Knight also has a line of there own sabots but they use the barnes bullet. Do yourself a favor and go onto Barnes website and order the free DVD. THe shockwaves and hornady ssts are great for accuracy and deliver the wallop but I also think they could expand more. Some guns with some loads it may mushroom easier than other guns with different loads. If you were to pick the best bullet to drop.. and I mean drop in its track a deer..... Barnes Expander MZ hollowpoint 300 grain. I'd say thats solid dead on to 100 yards, but than I'd look at the spitfires I believe they are called with the plastic tips on them and those will shoot flatter past that and they also will do a number on the animal. I'm not a pro but from research I been doing and some experience with the shockwaves I believe the Barnes will be a better choice. Sight in with what you have than fine tune with the Barnes.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

salmon_slayer06 said:


> Barnes all the way. Knight also has a line of there own sabots but they use the barnes bullet. Do yourself a favor and go onto Barnes website and order the free DVD. THe shockwaves and hornady ssts are great for accuracy and deliver the wallop but I also think they could expand more. Some guns with some loads it may mushroom easier than other guns with different loads. If you were to pick the best bullet to drop.. and I mean drop in its track a deer..... Barnes Expander MZ hollowpoint 300 grain. I'd say thats solid dead on to 100 yards, but than I'd look at the spitfires I believe they are called with the plastic tips on them and those will shoot flatter past that and they also will do a number on the animal. I'm not a pro but from research I been doing and some experience with the shockwaves I believe the Barnes will be a better choice. Sight in with what you have than fine tune with the Barnes.


The Knight version is called the Red Hots. I have a few I recovered from a range session and they're all nearly perfect petalled out.


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## Kelly Johnson (May 22, 2005)

I ordered the Barnes Expander MZ's.

I'll run em thru and see how they shoot.

Quakr....your shooting the Disc Elite as well if I remember right?


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

It's the original DISC but I updated the bolt and breech plug, so basically it's a 24" Elite. I'm swapping barrels on it this year. The old blueing has seen better days. Putting a 26" stainless on it.


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## 454casull (Jan 6, 2005)

Do you really need mre expansion with a projectile that is almost .50" to start with? Personally I want an exit hole and a bullet that hits where I aim it. I've used some hardcast pistol bullets and had great success.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

454casull said:


> Do you really need mre expansion with a projectile that is almost .50" to start with? Personally I want an exit hole and a bullet that hits where I aim it. I've used some hardcast pistol bullets and had great success.


Really? Then why didn't bullet technology stop with the roundball? I've lost deer to SST's not expanding at all. The exit wound was just as small as the entrance wound. No blood, very little hair and a lost deer.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

I was gonna suggest Shockwaves. 
The original does have the jacket separate upon examining the end result but it does its job. If you're concerned about the jacket, then get the bonded ones.


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## gunfun13 (Jun 13, 2003)

CMR said:


> I was gonna suggest Shockwaves.
> The original does have the jacket separate upon examining the end result but it does its job. If you're concerned about the jacket, then get the bonded ones.


Shockwaves and SSTs are the same bullet. I've been less then impressed with the results on deer, although they do shoot great. I am giving the XTPs a chance this year.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

gunfun13 said:


> Shockwaves and SSTs are the same bullet. I've been less then impressed with the results on deer, although they do shoot great. I am giving the XTPs a chance this year.


You are correct. As for bonded bullets for whitetail deer, I think it's overkill. In my rifles, I've been shooting Sierra GameKings and they work fine. Never needed a bonded bullet, now maybe for elk........


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

gunfun13 said:


> I've been less then impressed with the results on deer, although they do shoot great.


And what results are you looking for? Have you lost a deer because of them?


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

CMR said:


> And what results are you looking for? Have you lost a deer because of them?


I have. I lost 2 deer. We did find the deer weeks later. No expansion at all. A very small exit hole. They both went in and out without hitting a rib. Both were at 170 yards.


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## gunfun13 (Jun 13, 2003)

I want it dead in its tracks, and if I don't see it drop, I want something to follow. This is something I've never experience with shockwaves. Although I've recovered the couple of deer I've shot with them, quite a bit of luck was involved.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

QuakrTrakr said:


> I have. I lost 2 deer. We did find the deer weeks later. No expansion at all. A very small exit hole. They both went in and out without hitting a rib. Both were at 170 yards.


Interesting. All the deer my hunting buddy has shot with Shockwaves he has recovered, has had expansion but the jacket separated, and has found a nice entry wound. I've seen they also break right thru bones, as we're skinning and quartering out his deer. We usually find the bullet just under the skin on the other side of the rib cage.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

gunfun13 said:


> I want it dead in its tracks, and if I don't see it drop, I want something to follow. This is something I've never experience with shockwaves. Although I've recovered the couple of deer I've shot with them, quite a bit of luck was involved.


Maybe you should switch to hard cast? Either that or get a .58 cal muzzleloader shooting a 585gr piece of lead.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

gunfun13 said:


> I am giving the XTPs a chance this year.


Good luck. I never had any good accuracy from XTP's. Great in my .44 mag but not in my muzzleloader.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

CMR said:


> Interesting. All the deer my hunting buddy has shot with Shockwaves he has recovered, has had expansion but the jacket separated, and has found a nice entry wound. I've seen they also break right thru bones, as we're skinning and quartering out his deer. We usually find the bullet just under the skin on the other side of the rib cage.


Maybe it was a coincidence, but 2 animals is unacceptable in my book. Maybe I'm just so good of a shot that I shoot right through the rib bones.  I've shot a whole bunch of different bullets and weights. Mine likes 1-Barnes 2-XTPs 3-SST's 4-Noslers 5- Powerbelts 6-Fusions were absolutely the worst. That's all I can remember off the top of my head.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

Have ya tried Hornady Great Plains bullets?


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## awfulpotent (Oct 14, 2003)

We have taken 12 deer at our camp in the last three years every one was taken with a 300gr XTP backed by 2 50gr Pyrodex pellets at ranges from 30yrds out to 180yrds and have not had to track any one of them will never shoot anything else had horrible luck with shockwaves they just dont seem to expand


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

CMR said:


> Have ya tried Hornady Great Plains bullets?


I've only tried saboted bullets. Round balls and maxi-balls are for slower twist rates typically. More like 1 in 48".


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## Kelly Johnson (May 22, 2005)

CMR said:


> And what results are you looking for? Have you lost a deer because of them?


I lost this one last year.










I found him 10 days later after losing sleep and hair wondering how I could have missed.
No hair, no blood anywhere.
Exit was there but just a small little tear from what I could tell.

I tracked him quite a ways but he was 25-30yards over the property line and with zero sign to go on I was convinced I missed...but I couldn't quite swallow that.

I than saw a few posts about the same loads I was using here. Others have has the same issue. It was enough for me to go back, get permission from the neighbor and sure enough....

I did tag him but it hurt my feelings to let him lay that long.


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## Firefighter (Feb 14, 2007)

I too have had very poor outcomes with the TC shockwaves in the ML and the SST's in my 20. I'm gonna try the barnes expanders with blackhorn 209 this year.

BTW, the expanders are hard to find. Where did you buy them Kelly?


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

In my Rem 700, the 300 gr XTP Mags shoot great and are hell on deer. The .45 300 grain XTP is a tremendous bullet as well in a muzzleloader. not my first choice for long range, but I leave that to the Encore/Barnes combo


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Firefighter said:


> I too have had very poor outcomes with the TC shockwaves in the ML and the SST's in my 20. I'm gonna try the barnes expanders with blackhorn 209 this year.
> 
> BTW, the expanders are hard to find. Where did you buy them Kelly?


Jays has them.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Swamp Monster said:


> In my Rem 700, the 300 gr XTP Mags shoot great and are hell on deer. The .45 300 grain XTP is a tremendous bullet as well in a muzzleloader. not my first choice for long range, but I leave that to the Encore/Barnes combo


If you like the .45 XTP, try the .44 XTP in 300 grain. It flies a little flatter. It's the ones with the green sabot.


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## 454casull (Jan 6, 2005)

From Quakertracker....I have. I lost 2 deer. We did find the deer weeks later. No expansion at all. A very small exit hole. They both went in and out without hitting a rib. *Both were at 170 yards*.

Sounds about right at that range and velocity. Pointed bullet will do that if it does not upset. At that range I would not expect it to. As far as your round ball comments, if you apply good technology incorrectly it can still fail. Round balls flew like...balls! Stick with a reasonable ML bullet weight (300gr) or so and keep the range at around 100-125, assuming a hollow point type round and 100 grns of powder. I am not a traditionalist but I think we are trying too hard to make these center fire rifles, same goes with shotgun slugs.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

QuakrTrakr said:


> If you like the .45 XTP, try the .44 XTP in 300 grain. It flies a little flatter. It's the ones with the green sabot.


I've tried those in the Remy and no luck whatsoever. Funny how particular are muzzleloaders can be sometime, but the .45 version shot much, much better for me. Love the .429 300 grain XTP in Hornady's factory .44 mag ammo however....thats a great jacketed pistol bullet. (and muzzleloader bullet)


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## Kelly Johnson (May 22, 2005)

Firefighter said:


> I too have had very poor outcomes with the TC shockwaves in the ML and the SST's in my 20. I'm gonna try the barnes expanders with blackhorn 209 this year.
> 
> BTW, the expanders are hard to find. Where did you buy them Kelly?


Cabela's online. I had gift certificates


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

QuakrTrakr said:


> I've only tried saboted bullets. Round balls and maxi-balls are for slower twist rates typically. More like 1 in 48".


They're not round balls or maxi balls.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

454casull said:


> *Both were at 170 yards*.
> I am not a traditionalist but I think we are trying too hard to make these center fire rifles, same goes with shotgun slugs.


Exactly. 100yrds with a shotgun or MZ would be my maximum.
Too long of shots are whats making these bullets "not perform". These are not centerfire rifles, folks.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

You guys could also try these-
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...parentType=index&indexId=cat200005&hasJS=true

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...parentType=index&indexId=cat200005&hasJS=true


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

CMR said:


> They're not round balls or maxi balls.


Hornady Great Plains Bullets- http://www.cabelas.com/p-0020975210219a.shtml
Technically they're conicals. They still don't use a sabot. I'm not a fan of the Top Dead Centers either. Any all lead bullet will deform when the trigger is pulled. A copper jacketed saboted bullet may still deform a little, but the sabot does all the giving allowing the bullet to remain nearly intact.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

QuakrTrakr said:


> Hornady Great Plains Bullets- http://www.cabelas.com/p-0020975210219a.shtml
> Technically they're conicals. They still don't use a sabot.


I know that. I use them in my .58 cal MZ. 585gr, thats a BIG bullet.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

CMR said:


> I know that. I use them in my .58 cal MZ. 585gr, thats a BIG bullet.


Kelly is shooting a .50 cal. A .58 won't fit in a .50.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

QuakrTrakr said:


> Kelly is shooting a .50 cal. A .58 won't fit in a .50.


Really? Didn't know that.


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