# Conservation



## Ann Arbor Hokie (Oct 6, 2011)

This may be inappropriate in this forum, but Rick's post has me stewing a little bit and there's no general fishing forum to bring it up.

FIRST, Rick, congrats on the trip. Looked like a lot of fun.

Now onto the conservation. Fisheries science is not a black and white, take less and stock will increase, system. If it was, there wouldn't be Ph.D.s awarded for it. Conventional wisdom and in particular conventional harvest techniques of minimum size (length) limits have been shown in some scenarios to actually hurt the biomass and diversity of a stock. There's a lot of data out there, but this google presentation has some interesting concepts presented in a relatively high level manner:

http://www.ebcd.org/pdf/presentation/196-Kolding_and_Garcia.pdf

UNCLOS (pp. 4) stands for the UN Convention on Law Of the Seas. It is one of the main documents covering the ownership and exploitation of living marine resources particularly in areas where disputes between nations could arise. The whole document is good but in particular I really like the presentation of selectivity (pp 11-17) and the harvest mortality size (pp 21-22).

In relation to our white bass example, it would be very easy to argue that the fishing community has a negative selective influence on white bass population (ie. throw them back due to any number of reasons but in particular taste). This can easily lead to an imbalance in the catch of white bass as compared to similar niche predators ie. Walleye (as compared to a naturally balanced system). If it takes 4-5 lbs of baitfish to make 1 lb of predator fish, removing white bass from the system will leave forage for the increase in walleye catch weight. So in this scenario taking white bass is good (assuming the white bass population is healthy, which in most places it seems to be), this can prevent system stunting and increase the health of other more at risk populations. Sounds like a win win. 

I only say this because when stock recovery efforts start, this can be a big deal. In NJ the weakfish is a gamefish that has really been hurt in the past 10 years. Some scientists have postulated that overly robust populations of Summer Flounder, Striped Bass, and Bluefish are either eating young of the year or out-competing adults. So regardless of catch restrictions on weakfish, a possible most advantageous soultion is to take more bluefish in particular, because they are viewed like white bass are in the saltwater fishery (overabundant, a pain when trying to catch other species and not the best tasting as compared to other local options). Again this is only a theory, but you can see the effect harvest of a non target species can have on the recovery effort.

The net conclusion should be that these systems are incredibly complex and often counter-intuitive conclusions are the best course of action. Sportsmen need to allow regulators (DNR) to set decent regs, follow those regs and understand that limits hopefully have very precise reasons behind them. Its ok to practice "fish maximization" or basically keep your limit, because in some food webs, the DNR is counting on anglers to do that to maintain balance (Salmon being a potentially great example with the limited forage base).

Ive got like 8 more random management tangents going on in my head, but i really wanted to address this one. If its inappropriate shut it down or move it where it belongs please. I apologize in advance.


----------



## Rick Larson (Dec 4, 2012)

Well thanks. For the record, I wasn't bothered by the ideas of the guy that didn't like my exploits. There may well be areas that need to have the fishery protected.

Here on Lake Winnebago in Wisconsin whitebass have no size or possession limit because they are just a tremendous fishery here. If I was this guy, I would stay away from the Wolf River come the spring spawning run as there are people who catch and keep hundreds upon hundreds of fish to eat.

The WIDNR have biologists working the lake and would know if the rules should have to change. 

Nice post, hope it stays open. 

Oh, I cleaned 59 bass out of that cooler and froze half of them in five fillet packages. Gave them to older folks that don't get out to much anymore.


----------



## BAY CREEPER (Jan 11, 2009)

That was embarrassing. Sorry that had to happen, Rick.

I did want to say something on that thread, if speed is so important when the school moves in why not drill an extra hole right next to yours for the flasher? Then you wouldn't tangle every time costing you time! lol just an observation, great video looked like fun!


----------



## Ggb (Mar 14, 2013)

Ann Arbor Hokie said:


> This may be inappropriate in this forum, but Rick's post has me stewing a little bit and there's no general fishing forum to bring it up.
> 
> FIRST, Rick, congrats on the trip. Looked like a lot of fun.
> 
> ...


I wanted to comment on that thread also, though nothing confrontational.

It is my understanding that with certain species, especially panfish, that taking limits is good, otherwise the remaining fish overcrowd and become stunted. I believe this may apply more to ponds and small lakes. Would the same apply to white bass?

Also, aren't limits set according to what the fishery can sustain? If so, it would seem keeping your limit would not harm the fishery since the regulating body has already concluded those limits are sustainable. Or is my reasoning flawed?

Mind, I'm not looking for an argument, just clarification on whether I'm right or wrong. Thanks.


----------



## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Is there a limit on smelt? How about carp?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## bbi-smoke (Feb 21, 2010)

Luv2hunteup said:


> Is there a limit on smelt? How about carp?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Smelt = 2 gallons
Carp don't think so! 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Ann Arbor Hokie (Oct 6, 2011)

Ggb said:


> I wanted to comment on that thread also, though nothing confrontational.
> 
> It is my understanding that with certain species, especially panfish, that taking limits is good, otherwise the remaining fish overcrowd and become stunted. I believe this may apply more to ponds and small lakes. Would the same apply to white bass?
> 
> ...


From my limited understanding of fisheries science, your statement on panfish is spot on. Again, anecdotally, the rule of thumb seems to 4 or 5 to 1 in terms of pounds of prey fish to pounds of gamefish. Prey fish can be anything from fathead minnows to young of the year gills. The idea i believe is that there is a finite amount of preyfish to feed white bass, largemouth, smallmouth, walleye, sauger, pike etc. So by taking more white bass, you leave more food for other predators. If whitebass become overpopulated, the other competing predator stocks will suffer (and again all these models are rather simplistic but to illustrate the point). 

The argument i've heard for panfish harvest to prevent stunting is mainly based on dietary and sexual maturity in a ecosystems population. In most pond/lake ecosystems, sunfish spawns form the base of the piscivorous food chain. So as soon as a gill becomes sexually mature, say 4-5 inches (most resources seem to indicate 1 year after birth) they become factories of more baby sunfish and continue to feed the food chain of the environment.

At the same time, as they grow they become less and less likely to fall victim to predation from apex predators as only the largest most, uncommon ones will be able to eat them (a 10 " largemouth cant eat a 6" gill). These gills hit a sweet spot, where they produce spawns, and are less likely to be eaten.

The final stage of maturity is a large gill. From what i've read, these "dinner plates" become large enough that their diets can shift. Now they can feed on sunfish spawns just like the est of the community. So instead of adding to the food chain they take up more net resources. 

This is why its important for anglers to catch large gills as it keeps the gill population in that production "sweet spot". To big to get eaten, but to small to feed on their own spawn. And imagine all this is also applicable to white bass as well. The only difference i can see is that white bass are broadcast reproducers rather than nest reproducers (all this takes sunfish or white bass as the forage not the predator).

Of course all this changes based on the number of prey species in the food web. Add Alewives, Smelt, Shad, and Shiners and sunfish can potentially become less significant. 

Here's a decent article i m using as one of the basis of my argument: http://www.pondboss.com/free_articles.asp?id=42

And an even better article on the productivity of smaller bodies of water: http://www.pondboss.com/free_articles.asp?id=36
It basically says that all of this is conditional depending on your goals. Do you view sunfish as the base of the food web or the apex? If its the apex and you want larger gills, taking medium and smaller sized ones will leave more food available to develop those trophy fish. It also points out why slot limits are so good for gamefish.

And again, all this is in my humble amater understanding. I would love to hear from a professional if they're lurking


----------



## Rick Larson (Dec 4, 2012)

BAY CREEPER said:


> That was embarrassing. Sorry that had to happen, Rick.
> 
> I did want to say something on that thread, if speed is so important when the school moves in why not drill an extra hole right next to yours for the flasher? Then you wouldn't tangle every time costing you time! lol just an observation, great video looked like fun!


I was hopping around looking for fish, and in this mode I normally drill one hole, because I am moving soon. But this time I drilled a hole in right over a major school and didn't want to spook them. Then after they thinned out it didn't matter anymore as my cooler was 3/4 full!

Made for some differing scenes in the video too.


----------



## Rick Larson (Dec 4, 2012)

BAY CREEPER said:


> That was embarrassing. Sorry that had to happen, Rick.
> 
> I did want to say something on that thread, if speed is so important when the school moves in why not drill an extra hole right next to yours for the flasher? Then you wouldn't tangle every time costing you time! lol just an observation, great video looked like fun!


Oh, I'm getting too old to be embarrassed anymore. Thanks for your concern!


----------



## broad1kj (Jan 14, 2011)

Ggb said:


> It is my understanding that with certain species, especially panfish, that taking limits is good, otherwise the remaining fish overcrowd and become stunted. I believe this may apply more to ponds and small lakes. Would the same apply to white bass?
> 
> Also, aren't limits set according to what the fishery can sustain? If so, it would seem keeping your limit would not harm the fishery since the regulating body has already concluded those limits are sustainable. Or is my reasoning flawed?
> 
> .


Stunting in panfish and bass populations is much more complicated than just over overabundance. Many lake charcteristics promote stunting of these individuals. Whereas, no matter how many you harvest out of the lake the population will remain stunted. Thus, without serious modification to the lake itself, harvest as many as you can!


----------



## Ggb (Mar 14, 2013)

Ok, thanks for the clarification.


----------

