# Some good video...



## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=786154&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=21&fpart=1


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Interesting video. Shows a different style from what I am accustomed to. I am not sure how much effort went into stalking the various species...?

Noticed a lot of conversations in the background during the various shots, and their quarry didn't appear to be affected? Seemed more like shooting fish in a barrel.

I am not knocking it, but from outward appearances it seems like these African trips are more harvest than hunt? Once again, I know nothing about hunting outside of our part of the world...so if anybody with previous experiences hunting abroad can compare their trip with those in the videos, I would be very interested in learning more. I always thought I might be interested in an African Hunt someday, but it doesn't seem like it is as much of a challenge as hunting in our little neck of the woods!


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I'm with NE, I don't know that much about it but it looked more like shooting than hunting....though I'm sure we don't see the actual "hunting" that takes place. The Hippo one lookes like you find one in the water walk up to it and shoot it in the head. 
Whitetails are more my style, but again, I really am not qualified to accurately judge those videos.


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## Banditto (Jun 9, 2000)

Ya I agree. I watched a lot of the videos from that site a while back. MOST of them made me feel sick to my stomach. And I am last person to get squeamish from killing something. 

I am not saying I am against what theyr'e doing, but it just makes hunting in MI look that much better.


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## dzag23 (Jun 30, 2004)

Not my type of hunting...but very interesting none the less.

--Dave


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

I've talked to alot of people that have big game hunted for the big 5.

I go to the Novi SCI dinner every year for the last few years. My dad and my self are invited to share a gold table with a couple well to do gentleman who spend tons of cash to go hunt these big game animals yearly.

Part of the hunt is where they are at. Yes alot of the animals they hunt are at the top of the food chain so they are less spooky. Thats because if the men were unarmed those buffalo, croc's and Hipo's could easily kill them.

I think it is hard to take in acount all the dangerouse game in the area when you are only concentrated on what the camera is looking at.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Ok, a little background. Saeed and crew were in Tanzania at the Selous, one of the great wildernesses areas in Africa. This is true wilderness where if you have any kind of life threatening accident you are to some degree SOL. This is where lions, leopards, elephants roam freely as they have for 1000's of years.

A few observations. If I took video of me hunting deer in S.D. and only showed 5 seconds before the shot at a Whitetail 200yds away, I'm sure that would look like shooting fish in a barrel. In fact at 200yds, I feel pretty confident that I could talk and not have an issue. You see it all the time when guys on tv whisper while in their tree stands and the deer are none the wiser.

How does anyone propose judging the difficulty of a hunt by looking at a 10 second clip???


A Hippo has no natural enemy, and as a matter a fact causes more deaths per year in Africa then another other animal. The temperment does not fit the look. A hippo can stay under water for something like an hour, if spooked the hippo can and will use that power. That hippo had no idea that anyone was there otherwise he'd be no where to be seen.

The only natural predator that a Buff has is Lion, which will usually only take on a lone bull. Buff or Black Death as they are called, do not have a fear of humans, but part of their instinct is still flight over fight. Buff hunting is never a cake walk since at the slightest indication you are there the ground will tremble as the herd leaves you in the dust. If wounded a Buff will have no problem comming to stomp you in the ground. Buff are notorious after catching your scent, to doubling back around behind you and giving some payback. Again, I think both Buff's are farther then the camer portrays them to be since it is obviously zoomed in on them.

Crocodile? By far the wariest animal in Africa. Just sensing you vibrations from walking and they are in the water and gone. If you don't get a brain shot to anchor them, you are out your trophy fee and you will never find it.

I'm sure if Saeed saw a Michigan video of someone shooting a deer off a bait pile or out of a hay field, it would seem like shooting fish in a barrel, which it is compared to most African hunting. In Africa, you NEVER sit on bait of any sort(except for cats) and NEVER hunt trails leading to food sources, to do so is considered bad form. You may rarely hunt water holes, which by most is considered unethical. For the most part, everything is done spot and stalk. How many of us have shot deer by stalking them through the woods??? Probably very few and when we do so, most will shoot any buck, try stalking a herd of 50 wildebeest with 100 eyes, ears and noses and see how easy it is. Then try to pick out a good scoring one.

Bottom line is, you don't see that Saeed was there for around the month to get that video. I can assure you that putting in 12 hour days stalking animals in 80 degree heat is no cake walk. I don't recall how many Buffalo Saeed shot on his trip, but if he individually shot 3 that would be 1 ever 8-10 days. 120 hours of stalking Buffalo before getting one is definetly a challenge.

Elephant hunting is another thing that people think you just walk up and shoot them, but in reallity takes weeks of stalking animals to get close enough to a descent enough bull to take one.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

I am sorry but sights like that just arent healthy.

THe first buffalo shot is a spine shot I think and then they pan on the animal taking his last breath!!! I HATE THAT!!

We should be hunting for two reasons, the sport of hunting and we love it, and to help keep animal and man in check with each other. 

Not to exploit an animal dying while zooming in on the last seconds. 

Show the shot, educate everyone, and then get off the animal until it has expired. The way they did those clips are very bothering in my opinion.

just my 02


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Exploitation? This video is not for sale, it was taken for his personal use, so I fail to see how it exploits the animal.

Death is a fact of hunting, whether the camera is on or not. Not seeing it doesn't make it not happen. If you can't handle seeing an animal die then you shouldn't be out hunting.

If you notice on most Buff footage, Saeed put's many shots into them to get them to put it to an end as soon as possible.

One should not measure hunting around the world by the yard stick of Michigan deer hunting.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

Banditto said:


> Ya I agree. I watched a lot of the videos from that site a while back. MOST of them made me feel sick to my stomach. And I am last person to get squeamish from killing something.
> 
> I am not saying I am against what theyr'e doing, but it just makes hunting in MI look that much better.





mich buckmaster said:


> I am sorry but sights like that just arent healthy.
> 
> THe first buffalo shot is a spine shot I think and then they pan on the animal taking his last breath!!! I HATE THAT!!
> 
> ...



I agree I could not watch some of that I mean I have been hunting alot of years and thats just sick I have had to put animals down after a poor shot but I be Dang if I am going to record it 

3 shots on that buffalo at 30 yards is not right and the second one they shot in the rear as it was running away 

Now there not a deer hunter in the world with any kinda ethix that would shoot a deer at 100yards as it was running away


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

You guys crack me up. Everything is measured by deer hunting. :lol: 


"I'd never take that shot on a 140lb deer", well a 1000lb+ mean a$$ Cape Buffalo is not even in the same ballpark. To hunt one the minumum calibre is .375! 3 shots into an extremely dangerous large animal such as a Buff is well warrented for safeties sake.

"When I saw them on the Discovery Channel they just sat there while they were being filmed, so when you are hunting they must do the same" :lol: 

I can't find fault with any of the shots. I buff is one large animal, and is extremely dangerous(makes a brownie look like a candy a$$) a spine shot is generally accepted as is trying to brain them. 

Anyone know anything about Saeed before they question his ability to take a running shot? Did anyone know he is a skeet shooting champion? Did anyone know that his brother just won doubles trap in the olympics setting a new record? If there is anyone that is qualified to take a running shot it is Saeed.

People think that "Ah, stuff there can't be that much tougher then in the U.S.", that makes me laugh.


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## steve ypsi (Nov 24, 2002)

I quit hunting with a gun about 20 years ago, Opening day I shot a 8 point at 95 yards, I had a second buck Lic and the next day I killed a 6 point running at 20 yards, both were with a scope, I said then I would only hunt with a long bow, If they had been on film they wouldn't have looked good even though they were clean kills
My boy killed a 4 point his first time out at 14 years old with a rifle, he was so excited, the next year he killed a 6 point, while I was standing there looking at it he said **dad I don't want to hunt with a gun any more, I said why not, he said well this deer came up and I watched him for about 15 minutes and I have a scope and 30 yards away, I wasn't going to shoot it but did any way because it was to easy.
My point is I don't want to kill a hippo or alligator or even deer any more and the death of any animal is not a pretty sight.
I don't think you should Judge any one's way of hunting or what they hunt unless you find some rocks and break them into a hunting point and cut a limb or tree with that same stone and shave a bow out of it and make your string out of sinew you took from a hoofed animal and pounded it out and twisted it into a string and hope it doesn't rain while hunting with it, now you are almost on even par with a animal but still have the advantage of driving to the hunting area in your car or truck
I would bet that the meat from those animals were all used by the people in the area that are poorer than dirt
there is by far to much judgments on another person's method of hunting or what they hunt. 
I say if you are going to hunt try to make a clean kill so the animal doesn't suffer
My 2 cent's


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

My point is nice clean shot and and taking a shot a buff running shooting him him the @$$ is not right PERIOD i dont care how many championships he or his brother won YOU DONT SHOOT A ANIMAL OF ANY TYPE IN THE REAR WHILE RUNNING AWAY


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Steve you are absolutely correct about the meat. Every animal I have shot we ate part of and sold the rest for something like 7 cents a pound, when a good dailey wage is $4/day, they jump on 7cent a pound meat.

If you Elephant hunt, after getting your elephant, they typically bring in a truck load of villagers, and let me tell you it is a site to see! You just stand back because there are knives flying everywhere.

These people have nothing and are extermely grateful for the meat along with usually any money you can spare. Hell, last year I bought a cow for my Zulu tracker that needed something like 7 cows to give to his girlfriends father in order to get permission to get married. He needed 2 more cows, but at $400 a pop, he was lucky to get one out of me :lol: 

Sport hunting in Africa is the saviour of African animals. Sport hunting gives value to the animals and bring money back to the community for park rangers as well as schools etc... Without the money the animals have no worth and are poached into oblivion as is the case in Kenya. Since Kenya has banned sport hunting Ele. the population has declined rapidly where in Zimbabwe which has tremendous sport hunting they now have an over abundance of 50,000 Elephants!

TimberGSP, I can respect your opinion, but like I've been saying, please realize that it's a big world out there and not everything can be related to hunting deer.

I took a quartering away running shot at a whitetail in S.D. last fall and rolled him clean at 170yds at a flat out run across the prairie. Plain and simple, if "you" can't make the shot, then don't take it, but don't apply your limitiations with a broad brush stroke to everyone.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

TSS Caddis said:


> TimberGSP, I can respect your opinion, but like I've been saying, please realize that it's a big world out there and not everything can be related to hunting deer.
> 
> I took a quartering away running shot at a whitetail in S.D. last fall and rolled him clean at 170yds at a flat out run across the prairie. Plain and simple, if "you" can't make the shot, then don't take it, but don't apply your limitiations with a broad brush stroke to everyone.


I guess I need to shut up now NO hard feelings 

BUT NO one can make a clean kill at any animals rear


BUT hell what do I know

as far as my limitiations I can and will take a shot at a deer, Yote what ever running but I WILL never use the BUTT HOLE as a target

ALL FOR NOW SCOTT


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

TSS Caddis said:


> Exploitation? This video is not for sale, it was taken for his personal use, so I fail to see how it exploits the animal.
> 
> Death is a fact of hunting, whether the camera is on or not. Not seeing it doesn't make it not happen. If you can't handle seeing an animal die then you shouldn't be out hunting.
> 
> ...


It is being exploited all over the internet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT dont you see about that?? I make the decision to harvest an animal, not to video it and put it all over the internet!! If it is personal use then fine, good for him, but I will not sit here and say its OK!! I watched it and I am not for it, if you love to see animal die like than great!! NOT ME!!!!!! :rant:

And what does Michigan Deer Hunting have anything to do with it?? 

What I really dont understand is that you post this, people dont like it and you get all defensive???? What gives? Its not about you!! It about watching guys kill animals and watching the animals DIE!!!!! ON VIDEO!!!!!!!

I dont have to, or will like it!


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## Banditto (Jun 9, 2000)

TSS, I have nothing against any comments made by anyone. That is my opinion, that is your opinion. All I am saying is some hunters do take animals in Africa more sportingly that the ones in those videos. 

Cape buff, well they are just tough critters. I have a feeling that guy was using a load that wasn't expanding at that close range making only minute holes with no shock and little damage.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Ok, last time. Deer and Yotes are not Buffalo.

First, it is not a square on going away shot, it is definetly quartering.

Second, buy yourself the book "The Perfect Shot" and read it. It is a book on shot placement and biology of African animals that was written by a South African Vet that has killed more of the Big 5 then you can shake a stick at. On a Buffalo the quartering away gives you a behind the front shoulder shot and also the spine shot. Both are quality shots on Buffalo. 

Hell, on an Elephant two of the best anchoring shots are a facing away spine shot and a quartering to facing away back hip shot. Both will put one down until you can get close enough for a killing shot.

Third, you have to realize that Dangerous Game is justly named. You wound a Buffalo, it runs off and you don't find it, the next guy that runs into it will likely end up in a casket! A heart shot Buff can go a heck of a long ways and take a heck of a long time to die. The goal with Dangerous Game is to anchor it so you don't have to run off into dense 10' tall grass looking for it and have an encounter at 10' which you have good odds of losing in that face off!

Same goes with Elephant. You take a heart shot on an Ele and he run's off, you are potentially putting a lot of peoples lives in danger! Again the goal is to anchor it so it provides no danger to anyone, then walk up and provide the finisher.

That's not me talking, that is just the way it is. Not from Bill Jourdan telling you about the ethics of hunting from 100 deer. These are standard practices from derived from 100's of PH's that have been involved with or have personally killed thousands of Elephants and Buffalo.

I'd wager dollars to donuts that if you are ever on the ground with Buffalo you'll agree to any shot your PH recommends. That is unless you slept in a holiday in express the night before. :lol: 

It's one thing being an internet expert on shot placement on African Game, it is another to go walk the walk.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Banditto, there is some merit to that since Saeed turned his own solids and used them. The thing is though that since you never know what shot you'll have, it is hard to decide on what bullet and in some cases you'd definetly be happy with little expansion and more penetration. 

I don't know what his 375/404's fps is, but you can bet that it is really moving. Even with X bullets or A-Frames probably all those Buff still would have run off, and the ones that were spined probably would have run off also, since that is one heck of a back bone to shatter.


Buckmaster, I don't take any of this personally, but when people are crying how distaste full it is to see an animal die, that is there opinion. If you shoot a deer with your bow, I can guarentee you may not see the end, but in some cases it will be just as painful, the difference is you don't have to see it. Life is harsh, you don't have to like seeing it, but whether you like it or not hunting leads to the death of an animal and it seems strange to me that you are fine with it as long as you don't see it. Well, I'm not that kind of guy, I never say anything behind someones back that I wouldn't say to their face and I sure as heck are not going to turn away when an animal dies. If I was man enough to take it's life, I should be man enough to watch what the result of my action is.

Then when the internet armchair quarter backs know the proper shot placement on African game from their experience with deer, that is just plain funny to me. :lol:


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

We'll just have to disagree on what consitutes good video. Walking up to a Hippo while it's in the water and making a killing shot is not necessarily good video imo. I know how dangerous these animals are, but they are not exactly difficult to hunt, regardless how long they can stay under water. If you can walk within range (close range considering they are "dangerous' game) without any cover whatsoever with probably more than 3 people at a time and place a bullet in it's brain, these critters don't have the senses (or they are not afraid of man) that animals in NA have. The only skill involved is making a killing shot at the moment of truth and some stalking skills, the rest is handled by the PH. Now that argument can be said that it's not much different than some guided hunts here in the states. I enjoy reading about hunting the big 5 and other African species. The danger and excitement are the thrill, and so far in just about everything I have read, really the only reason to participate.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Didn't really intend to open a huge hornets nest here. As I stated I have no practical knowledge about hunting abroad, but had always looked at the future possibility. The footage I saw caused me to re-think whether that would be the type of hunt that I might be interested in...


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## steve ypsi (Nov 24, 2002)

Saxton Pope wrote a book in 1926 about hunting with the Bow & Arrow.
Pope said in his book that he didn't think it was fair play to hunt Grizzly bears
From a tree stand so he hunted them off the ground with a english yew Bow.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

My teacher in high school went on this hunt one time he braged about it for months 

He went on a Bison hunt in Tenn where the guide drove him up in a Pick up and he picked out the Bull he wanted then drove back and got the guns then drove back to the field and shot it at 20 yards from the truck got out and finshed it off with a hand gun MAN he was proud I wonder if he taped it??


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)

A close friend,his brother and father shot 40 plus animals in africa on there trip and only 1 of them were shot out side of the truck, the rest were taken from an elavated stand built on the truck.To me it is a joke and not anything I would like to do.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

So because one place hunted in a manner that you didn't like all places are the same?

Have you ever hunted from a tree stand? Probably, so I fail to see why that would be distasteful to you.

You guys are really cracking me up with all your comments derived from either no knowledge or second hand knowledge :lol: 

I'm not just waiting for, "On the Discovery Channel, they drove up to within 10' of a Lion, so I bet Lions are easy to hunt!". Uh, when they do that it is at a park where they Lions see dozens of vehicles a day 365 days a year. Try that in a wilderness setting.

No one besides SwampMonster or Steve has been able to speak in an educated manner to any of this, so I'm done preaching to those that can't be educated.


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)

Yeah ,that hippo shooting looks real tuff. :lol:


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## STEINFISHSKI (Jan 30, 2001)

TSS Caddis said:


> You guys are really cracking me up with all your comments derived from either no knowledge or second hand knowledge :lol: .


Nice condescending remark. All of us dummies here can be opinionated here too. What about your comments? You must be the single source of knowledge, and what you believe, others should too? Come on, deflate that ego a bit before condecending others opinions or knowledge.




TSSCaddis said:


> No one besides SwampMonster or Steve has been able to speak in an educated manner to any of this, so I'm done preaching to those that can't be educated.


Your holier than thou attitude, and eagerness to "educate" us to agree with your way of thinking is less than appreciated. You may think African hunting is great, good. Others may see it differently. It must be your quest to educate us to all of your expertise and opinions. Oh please!


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)




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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Stein, so what would you say if you posted some video of jigging for walleye and some guy from Florida that has only ever bass fished, posted that although he has never walleye fished, he'd never do it because in your video it appeared that you were catching them to easily?? Yep, from the 10 seconds I saw, I have decided there is no challenge to it.

Then, my god you had the audacity to show some footage of fish cleaning! Oh wait, I think I saw one of the fish twitch, say it isn't so, that fish is still alive while you are cleaning it! Can it be nerves, nope, I've never cleaned a fish but I know that fish is still alive because it twitched.



Wait, is that a boat you are using to get to fishing spots??? No way, I'd ever use a boat on muskegon lake, you can just motor right up to those unsuspecting walleye and catch them. Even though I've never been on Muskegon Lake, I must say by my expert opinion that I'd use a dry fly boat and paddle out. That is the only sporting way to fish.

Or how about his, Zimbabwe parks department employee assigned to cull elephants. Mission accomlished by brain shots. He sees a Real Tree video where deer are shot with bows and run off to die. "The only ethical place to shoot an animal is in the head". I may only have ever killed elephants but deer can't be any different. Yep head shot is the only way to go!

If someone says "Caddis, what do you think about stem cell research", Caddis: "I can't really comment since I don't know enough about the subject". How simple is that? "Caddis, what do you think about that spear fishing video where the guy shot that Yellow Fin tuna in the stomach? Caddis: "I don't know where your supposed to shoot a Tuna, so I really can't say" or should the response be "That made me sick seeing the blood, that fish was going away, I'd never shoot a deer like that, so you shouldn't shoot a fish like that"  

Now is it so hard?


Guy at body shop watching them paint his car. "That's not how I'd paint that! Let me tell you, I just painted my bird house last week and I used a brush and put two coats of Rustoleom on it. That spray gun of yours isn't going to work"

This just get's more humerous as time goes by. 

I trust that those that can't stand an animal dying will be shooting them with paintballs this year and doing all their hunting by foot :lol:


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)

:coco:


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

bounty hunter said:


> A close friend,his brother and father shot 40 plus animals in africa on there trip and only 1 of them were shot out side of the truck, the rest were taken from an elavated stand built on the truck.To me it is a joke and not anything I would like to do.



FOr the RECORD I WAS NOT APPLYING THAT THE HUNTS IN QUESTION WAS FROM A TRUCK 

SCOTT


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

TSS, 

I could give a care less HOW AND WHY THEY HUNT IN AFRICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am talking about the VIDEO PRODUCTION of watching an animal let out its last breath or a hippo jirating(sp) in the water. 

I am all for them hunting, but not putting it on video the way they did!!

Tim, great post, I agree 100%


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Took this from that site!!!! From Mr. TSS about MS people

"I posted this URL on another hunting site since I thought they'd enjoy it, and am steaming over the crying going on. Some about seeing the animals die and the rest about shot placement. 

I can't believe that there were hunters that bitched about seeing the animals die! These are the same guys that'll bowhunt, have their animals run off and never see an animal die and be prefectly happy. If you are man enough to decide to kill an animal, then in my book you should be man enough to witness the outcome from it! 

Then when shotplacement is critiqued because that is not where they'd shoot a Whitetail, well that just pushed me over the edge! 

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=607803#post607803 

From reading one of Anne's posts over there I think she now has the same opinion of the site 

Edited by GMaxson (09/17/04 01:40 AM) "

ALSO

"I hear you Saeed! I think these guys watch the Discovery Channel and see Buffalo 10' from the film truck and figure when hunting you walk up, pick out the one you want and shoot it. Croc's just sit there and look at you while you shoot them 

What sent me over the edge, is that guys that have probably never shot a big game animal other than a deer are speaking with authority on shooting african game using deer as their only reference. And don't like seeing a animal die. The day I can't take watching an animal die by my hand is the day I quit hunting. Whether they see it or not doesn't change the outcome.

I'm still steaming over the moronic responses! I need to learn to just let things go I guess 

Anyway, great footage! I enjoyed it quite a bit, so to hell with the new PETA branch of hunters."

I like how you think we are PETA----------GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Banditto (Jun 9, 2000)

I carefully read over GMaxsons responses, but I hope GMaxson doesn't go postal or anything from beind sent "over the edge"?


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## JJMiller (Sep 17, 2004)

After reading the responses to this thread and other things on this site all I can say is You guys need to get out more often. Hunting causes death.

Remember, vote for Bush. Don't be led around by the union idiots.


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)

We all know it causes death,but the video looked pretty poor and from what I have heard from different people on that type of "hunting" I'll personally pass because the neighbors cattle taste better. :16suspect


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

I've always taken the greatest pleasure in the hunt and not so much the kill. When someone video tapes only the kill and not the hunt then it leads me to believe that they get the greatest pleasure out of the kill and not so much the hunt. 

I have no problem seeing deer that I've shot die but I wouldn't even consider having someone along with a camera to tape only the instant the animal gets shot. Maybe more video of the hunt would have been in better taste.

Also I thought this forum was for General MICHIGAN Hunting anyways. This is one of those times I get the feeling someone is looking down their nose at me.


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## STEINFISHSKI (Jan 30, 2001)

:tsk: I guess we have now seen the true The Steelhead Site Caddis. Don't get your panties in such a wad everytime someone disagrees with your opinion buddy. Calling others' names here and behind everyone's back won't make you many friends. Or maybe making friends here is not your intent. Maybe you are just a pot stirrer by nature. Get help, maybe steve or phly can help you with your public relations. You must have missed out on that class.


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## STEINFISHSKI (Jan 30, 2001)

"I posted this URL on another hunting site since I thought they'd enjoy it, and am steaming over the crying going on. Some about seeing the animals die and the rest about shot placement. 

_Or about your arrogance, and unwillingness to accept another perspective that is not yours._

I can't believe that there were hunters that bitched about seeing the animals die! These are the same guys that'll bowhunt, have their animals run off and never see an animal die and be prefectly happy. If you are man enough to decide to kill an animal, then in my book you should be man enough to witness the outcome from it! 

_You da man._

Then when shotplacement is critiqued because that is not where they'd shoot a Whitetail, well that just pushed me over the edge! 

_Seek professional help._

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=607803#post607803 

From reading one of Anne's posts over there I think she now has the same opinion of the site 

_Go away then and take your own advice. Why come back?_

ALSO

"I hear you Saeed! I think these guys watch the Discovery Channel and see Buffalo 10' from the film truck and figure when hunting you walk up, pick out the one you want and shoot it. Croc's just sit there and look at you while you shoot them 

_Get a room._


I'm still steaming over the moronic responses! I need to learn to just let things go I guess 

_Morons are we? More name calling, you must really be steamed._

Anyway, great footage! I enjoyed it quite a bit, so to hell with the new PETA branch of hunters."

_Again, seek help. You are taking all this way too seriously.:coco: _

_BTW to hell with you and the horse you rode in on too._


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)




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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

I'm sorry, but you guys just can't seem to admit you don't know something and instead will shoot off the hip with eroneous information and speculation.

If you don't know enough about a topic to speak intelligently, don't speak. Maybe some of your parents didn't share that tidbit with you. 

Way to go Stein, ignore my analogy that I wrote for you. Seems pretty to be a pretty good one.

Stop and use some sense boys instead of "well I'd", when you don't know! If you have shot buffalo, or have been around buffalo that were shot, then great, weigh in on shot placement, difficulty of hunting them etc... but how can you possible have an idea after 10 seconds! I'm all ears, please do explain???? No one seems to be addressing that, instead they'd rather reiterate blah blah blah.

Your so sure that the camera man only shot 10 seconds from each animal???? So when you watch Real Tree, I suppose they use all footage they shot? Again, please explain how you know that the camera man only filmed the kill? What??? Blah, blah, blah...

Exploiting the death of an animal?? So when you watch the Outdoor Channel, I suppose you are beside yourself watching animals get shot? Well, what do you think happens after that? Do they show it? No. Does it happen? Yes. Does you not seeing it change anything? No. So the premise you use is that the whole purpose of Saeed going to Tanzania, video taping his hunt was so he could exploit the death of animals in free 10 second clips? Get a life.

Stein, glad to see you have continued stalking me and interjecting smart ass comments in anything I post. I'm sure your mom is proud that no matter what I post your their to lip off. I've come to expect no less.

Come on Stein, please tell me how any of the analogy I posted for you is different then this scenario???

If a bass fisherman that had never fished walleye posted how he'd never walleye fish because he saw video of you using live bait and how cruel that is. Then he saw you throw a fish into a cooler alive and he could hear it flopping around. What would you think????

Well, it's time for me to get back to my life and let the internet experts start slamming African hunting again based on 3rd party accounts, the discovery channel and 10 seconds of Saeed's footage.


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

Gene, did you really expect to find a lot of experts here on shot placement on African game or did this become your opportunity to educate all of us little people on African big game hunting?

Would you please come up with a goofy analogy in your reply to me? I can't get enough of them. You are quite the masterdebator (sp?) and I'm not worthy of conversing with you any longer.

You remind me alot of the infamous "ORVIS ENDORSED #1" over at TSS is he by chance a friend of yours?


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

TSS Caddis said:


> You guys are really cracking me up with all your comments derived from either no knowledge or second hand knowledge :lol:
> 
> No one besides SwampMonster or Steve has been able to speak in an educated manner to any of this, so I'm done preaching to those that can't be educated.


Ok- Enough of this:rant: .

My original and subsequent posting on this thread were made in "politically correct terms" in a manner that I thought would not be critical of a type of hunt that I had not participated. Just wanted some input from others that knew more about how indicative this video was of the actual hunting in Africa. For whatever reason, any input to this thread put you on the defensive.

Now that your true colors are apparent....dont make assumptions about people you don't know, it is dangerous and impolite. Example- based on your comments here about myself and others in this thread, I can only assume that you are an arrogant, horses rear-end. 

You seem to have an omnipotent knowledge about your fellow sportsmen and their socio-economic standings, their education level, their skills as hunters and sportsmen. Don't kid yourself that you are above anyone (in any of those categories) soley because you hunted the dark continent.

Thanks for your "charitable attempt" to educate all us poor hayseeds that have only hunted here in North America. I am sure your "canned hunting" skills are the talk of multiple continents. 

Those poorly filmed, unpolished, unedited kill shot videos, and attitudes like yours are what damages hunters causes. Your disdain and lack of respect for others (based on your posts in this thread and elsewhere) is apalling.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)




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## h_buck (Jul 12, 2004)

Hey guys, just a little thought here too. The videos bothered me quite a bit as well and it's nice to know that I wasn't the only one. 

But if TSS Caddis bothers you enough, you could always add him to your ignore list, that way he can't bother you any more. For anyone that doesn't know how to do that, just click on his profile and then select the link that says "Add TSS Caddis to your ignore list".

Obviously, for those that love to argue (and heck, I like reading those arguments :evil: ) please ignore the above. :corkysm55


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## STEINFISHSKI (Jan 30, 2001)

Thanks for the reminder H Buck, I should have done this a long time ago. I did just that and I feel better already. 


Good luck with your arguing, arrogance, and name calling Gene, and see you on the water.


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## mecheadSR (Dec 18, 2003)

I'll agree the video was in poor taste, could of edited some of the dying scene's, but if anyone here has ever gut shot a deer or any kind of shot that the deer needed time to expire we'll then they should'nt talk because that death was probably alot worse than the one's on tss video, it just wasn't caught on tape.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have shot bear, mule deer, antelope, turkeys, rams, whitetails, every rodent, and many more. 

Some have screamed, died a horrible death all night, some have even got spined and layed there and looked at me. 

BUT>>>>>>>>>>>I DID NOT PUT IT ON VIDEO, THEN SHOW ONLY THE KILL AND THEN PUT IT ALL OVER THE INTERNET FOR PEOPLE TO WATCH THESE ANIMALS JIRATE ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!!!!

I all for any of the killing, the death of an animal, the way they hunt in Africa and everything else. Also I dont care what angle or how long of a shot it is. I AM NOT for the video of the animal going through its last minute. 

Why didnt they show the shot, the animal running and fall down, then pan back to the hunter who is HAPPY!! Instead put it on the animal that is doind its last dance. 

I sure hope this makes sense to some, cause some just dont seem to get it.


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## AL D. (Feb 18, 2003)

:rant: Several of the hunts did not look very sporting to me, kind of like shooting ducks in a barrel,I think I will stick to deer and pheasant hunting. IMHO>----------------> Al


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Al, if you video taped the hunt for one of your deer there and showed the last 10 seconds, I'm guessing it might leave the same impression. Right or wrong it is impossible to judge the difficulty of a hunt by viewing the last 10 seconds of it. IMHO


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

Ok I talked to my Ex Girl Friends Dad who has hunted in there a few diff times he said " ever animal he shot was shot in a vital area and he would never even think of any other shot'' with the right gun and the right bullet it can be a good clean kill


I understand that the bad shots happen and that the last 10 seconds is the worse part no one should like it but its a fact of the killing game but I dont think that it needs to be shown and passed around 

THis is what we dont need PETA to find 

My 2 sents


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## AL D. (Feb 18, 2003)

TSS, I really enjoyed the wild boar hunt where the guy ran up to it and had his 460 weatherby mag by the barrel and was getting ready to dispatch it with a home run swing (with the action closed and probably a round in the chamber)  , not my cup of tea. Guess I'm getting soft in my old age :evil: LOL. Gotta go now...................... Al


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Al, that didn't answer the question.

Timber, every animal I've shot there was shot in the vitals. If you read Roberston's book "The Perfect Shot" though you will see that there are many other places that are considered acceptable and ethical shots on Buffalo other than the vitals. This book was written by a South African Vet with consideration of the most experienced african PH's in the industry. Spine shots on Buff, or hip shots on Ele for that matter are not meant to be a killing shot, but are meant to incapacitate the animal so you can go up and put in a finisher. Like with any hunting, you can botch up a vital shot and have a gut hit animal, which with a Buff put's you in a dangerous situation. This is why incapacitating shots are acceptable for safety reasons. 

Upon further reading of the thread on accuratereloading you will see where Saeed states that the Buff. the shot quartering away was a vital hit and took off part of the heart.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

TSS Caddis said:


> Al, that didn't answer the question.
> 
> Timber, every animal I've shot there was shot in the vitals. If you read Roberston's book "The Perfect Shot" though you will see that there are many other places that are considered acceptable and ethical shots on Buffalo other than the vitals. This book was written by a South African Vet with consideration of the most experienced african PH's in the industry. Spine shots on Buff, or hip shots on Ele for that matter are not meant to be a killing shot, but are meant to incapacitate the animal so you can go up and put in a finisher. Like with any hunting, you can botch up a vital shot and have a gut hit animal, which with a Buff put's you in a dangerous situation. This is why incapacitating shots are acceptable for safety reasons.
> 
> Upon further reading of the thread on accuratereloading you will see where Saeed states that the Buff. the shot quartering away was a vital hit and took off part of the heart.




Gotcha  

ALL FOR NOW SCOTT


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

i'm surprised this thread hasn't died yet.

"to each his own", "when in rome", etc. etc. if that's the culture there, so be it. 

lay off tss though - he contributes well to this site. he was just trying to add a different perspective. if you don't like it, (and frankly, its not my cup of tea either) then maybe you should cancel your hunting trip to africa.

at least the game was dispatched and retrieved.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

rzdrmh said:


> i'm surprised this thread hasn't died yet.
> 
> "to each his own", "when in rome", etc. etc. if that's the culture there, so be it.
> 
> ...


You are right, the game was dispatched and retrieved!!


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## Swamper (Apr 12, 2004)

Stumbled upon this interesting thread by accident. At first I thought some of the folks had been FORCED to watch the video clips based on their ongoing criticism, then realized that wasn't the case. 

Would the PETA members hiding in disguise please stand up?

Swamper


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)

:coco:


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Swamper said:


> Stumbled upon this interesting thread by accident. At first I thought some of the folks had been FORCED to watch the video clips based on their ongoing criticism, then realized that wasn't the case.
> 
> Would the PETA members hiding in disguise please stand up?
> 
> Swamper


Lets see HMMMMMM, Who would PETA be more for a sporstman who shoots animal in Africa, OR A sportsman who shoots animal in Africa and videos the animal DIEING so the PETA ORGANIZATION has fuel to show the public. 

Sounds like the ones for it must be for PETA to have some FUEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

I respect all you guys and your points of view.

I wonder though are we doing the right thing buy saying ( Lets not let peta see what we ). Or should we be open about hunting and tell them to kiss off.

Peta wouldn't agree or disagree any more or less I don't think with one of us killing a buffalo or a dove.

To them we are all in the wrong and all hunting should be stopped as far as they see it. There is no middle ground with those people.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

rzdrmh said:


> lay off tss though - he contributes well to this site. he was just trying to add a different perspective.QUOTE]
> 
> I have no problem with the content. I just asked some honest questions about something that I admittedly had never expeienced firsthand. Subsequently I was labeled a moron.
> 
> I think that the video links had offered some opportunity for discussion and learning...unfortunately they only served as fodder to criticize anybody who had questions or comments.


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## dogjaw (Nov 8, 2000)

I don't believe this. A few folks need to step back or maybe find another hobby. Hunting ends with a kill. I can't believe the complaints about elevated platforms, blinds, etc. It's O.K. for whitetail, but no other animal? You guys are getting carried away here. As far as complaints about video, were pictures taken of the kill afterward? Are mounts hanging on walls? Do you pull the trigger and close your eyes afterward? I'll be glad when the rest of hunting season opens, so you guys can go kill something and get whatever's bugging you off your chest. Video camera optional.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

dogjaw said:


> I don't believe this. A few folks need to step back or maybe find another hobby. Hunting ends with a kill. I can't believe the complaints about elevated platforms, blinds, etc. It's O.K. for whitetail, but no other animal? You guys are getting carried away here. As far as complaints about video, were pictures taken of the kill afterward? Are mounts hanging on walls? Do you pull the trigger and close your eyes afterward? I'll be glad when the rest of hunting season opens, so you guys can go kill something and get whatever's bugging you off your chest. Video camera optional.



i have followed this and i cant remeber any one talking about the fact that they should not use stands


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

dogjaw said:


> I don't believe this. A few folks need to step back or maybe find another hobby. Hunting ends with a kill. I can't believe the complaints about elevated platforms, blinds, etc. It's O.K. for whitetail, but no other animal? You guys are getting carried away here. As far as complaints about video, were pictures taken of the kill afterward? Are mounts hanging on walls? Do you pull the trigger and close your eyes afterward? I'll be glad when the rest of hunting season opens, so you guys can go kill something and get whatever's bugging you off your chest. Video camera optional.


LMAO!!!!!!!! believe me, killing something will do nothing for me. I will still think that putting an animal ON VIDEO DIEING is wrong.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

mich buckmaster said:


> LMAO!!!!!!!! believe me, killing something will do nothing for me. I will still think that putting an animal ON VIDEO DIEING is wrong.


I agree and thats my biggest complaint


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Robert W. McCoy Jr said:


> I respect all you guys and your points of view.
> 
> I wonder though are we doing the right thing buy saying ( Lets not let peta see what we ). Or should we be open about hunting and tell them to kiss off.
> 
> ...


I agree with you Robert, I just dont like people say I am for PETA when I run Hunter Safety Courses, After School Hunting Clubs, and am an AVID hunter. I guess on some issues you should just stay quiet. Kind of sad!! But reality


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

I guess I still don't see what is wrong with capturing "all" of a hunt on video?

The death of an animal is a reality of hunting.

The animal feels the same amount of pain whether it is on tape or not. 

If I posted video from a duck hunt where we tape the ducks being shot and falling, that in the over all scheme of things is the same as watching a buffalo die. I'm sure there would be no discourse from watching birds get shot though.

If I'm willing to shoot an animal and decide it will die, I am also willing to see all that comes from it. Of course it bothers me to see an animal die, but if I got to the point I was unable watch the death of an animal, I would quit hunting since I was the one that caused the death. If I feel so bad about an animal dieing, then maybe I should not have caused the death of said animal.

Sure it may provide ammo for PETA, but I for one am not about to act ashamed and hide what happens when you hunt. However an animal dies by my hand it is a heck of a lot more humane then how it would die in nature.


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)

the never ending thread.....


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

bounty hunter said:


> the never ending thread.....


Indeed!!


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## DUGABOY1 (Jun 3, 2005)

timbergsp said:


> I guess I need to shut up now NO hard feelings
> 
> BUT NO one can make a clean kill at any animals rear
> 
> ...


Timbergsp, There seems to be some confusion as to the ability to make a clean kill on a Cape Buffalo, that I think I can clear up for you if I might! 
Sir, it is one thing to make a clean kill on a 100 lb whitetail, with one shot, and quite another to make the same shot on a Cape Buffalo. All that is needed for the deer is a fast flying, fast opening bullet in the lungs to down the biggest deer ever born. A shot through both shoulders will usually put him down in his tracks if both bones are hit! 
Cape buffalo have been known to take as many as 11 shots right through the boilerroom with very heavy Nitro calibers, before going down. The only shot that will put a buffalo down in his tracks is one that hits the brain, or the spine between the brain, and his front legs, and with the spine shot, unless it is broken in two, he may get back up anyway. The shot you saw going up the south end of the north bound buffalo is a required shot on a fleeing buffalo. You must understand that if that buffalo gets into the thorn, he may kill someone before he is weeded out. That is a job that would scare the hell out of anyone with any sense! Addtionally, the rifles, and bullets used for for Buffalo will easily reach, and exit the chest of a buff at 100yds, from a Texas Heart shot,and is the smartest shot a hunter can take on a buff that is wounded, and hikeing it for the high grass. That may be the shot that puts him down for the count.

I would like to see the look on your face when you have to go into that high grass after a Buff you didn't do everything you could to stop , including a shot up the old spout! If you don't take that shot, the PH will! 

All I'm saying is, till you been there, don't make snap judgements, based on a ten second film clip, or by compareing Cape Buffalo hunting to "ANYTHING" on the North American continant, and certainly not a whitetail.


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