# By the numbers



## e. fairbanks (Dec 6, 2007)

This part of the Forum being concerned w/wildlife disease:
Our bovine TB CAUDAL FOLD INTRADERMAL TESTS in Michigan reveal 5 to 7 % positive results. The comparative cervical test (bovine vs avian tuberculin) result in allmost all responses indicating more avian sensitivity. 
TESTING 1,000,000 OF OUR MICHIGAN CATTLE REVEALS THAT 5000 TO 7000 ARE INFECTED W/AVIAN TB AND OR THE SO CALLED AVIAN COMPLEX
sHOULD WE BE CONCERNED ?

The 2007 USDA TB slaughter survey program resulted in the submission of 10,000^ suspicious lesions to the Ames lab. Of 24 TB positives, 6 were adult cows, the rest feeder cattle. 15 of the feeder cattle were of Mexican origin. We import over 1,000,000 Mexican feeders every year.
What caused the other 10,000 lesions ?
Did the Mexican feeders, on feed in feedlots for a year, infect other animals in the feedlots ?? Do our deer infect our cattle ?? 
The good doctors Schmitt, O;Brien and Halstead are all members of the USAHA TB Committee from whence came this info


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## 6inchtrack (Sep 29, 2008)

e. fairbanks said:


> This part of the Forum being concerned w/wildlife disease:
> Our bovine TB CAUDAL FOLD INTRADERMAL TESTS in Michigan reveal 5 to 7 % positive results. The comparative cervical test (bovine vs avian tuberculin) result in allmost all responses indicating more avian sensitivity.
> TESTING 1,000,000 OF OUR MICHIGAN CATTLE REVEALS THAT 5000 TO 7000 ARE INFECTED W/AVIAN TB AND OR THE SO CALLED AVIAN COMPLEX
> sHOULD WE BE CONCERNED ?
> ...


That wasn't mentioned in the commercial.


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## Beavervet (Oct 16, 2008)

e. fairbanks said:


> This part of the Forum being concerned w/wildlife disease:
> Our bovine TB CAUDAL FOLD INTRADERMAL TESTS in Michigan reveal 5 to 7 % positive results. The comparative cervical test (bovine vs avian tuberculin) result in allmost all responses indicating more avian sensitivity.
> TESTING 1,000,000 OF OUR MICHIGAN CATTLE REVEALS THAT 5000 TO 7000 ARE INFECTED W/AVIAN TB AND OR THE SO CALLED AVIAN COMPLEX
> sHOULD WE BE CONCERNED ?
> ...


Excellent point, and Bovine TB spread occurred several years after the MDA decided it was not necessary to test cattle for intrastate movement any more in Michigan, as we were TB free at the time. This prompted alot of movement of cattle within the state, some legal and some not so legal. During this period of time, there were large numbers of cattle within the state that were never being tested at all for bovine TB, thus we really don't have any handle on how prevelant bovine TB was in our cattle herd until after the outbreak in deer and we then determined that there were many cases of TB in the state in cattle. But it is much easier to blame Bovine TB on deer, that is the politically correct cause, it just fits well within the political speak of Lansing. Much like CWD, TB and deer baiting. Eliminating baiting and feeding won't really impact the spread or control of these diseases because social transmission cannot be stopped between deer since eliminating artificial feeding will only control less than 1% of deer social interactions. These diseases are shown to be more prevelant in adult bucks than does and in the case of TB spread from doe to fawn is a significant factor. In addition, small mammals are implicated in other parts of the world as being the number 1 cause of the spread of bovine TB in deer, can Michigan be so different? I doubt it


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## markbarth (Sep 30, 2008)

6inchtrack said:


> That wasn't mentioned in the commercial.


I talked to Bridget Patrick of the MDA and she said that the timing of the commercials,coming out as the same time CWD was discovered,was purely coincidental. How naive!

According to Bridget the MDA got a grant from the government to produce these ads. How convienent!!

Talk about the NRC 
and Mda being in bed together!

For all you naysayers(pinefarm,fairfax1,farmlegend)if you can't read between the "sheets" you guys are clearly misguided!!


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## e. fairbanks (Dec 6, 2007)

"Testing 1,000,000 Michigan cattle reveals 50,000 to 70,000 head showing a reaction to avian TB AND/OR THE "AVIAN COMPLEX"
Altho I was the Lake county mental arithmetic champion when in the eighth grade that was a long time ago.
Our MDA does not tell us how many cows in the MAAZ (southern Mi,) showed more reaction to bovine tuberculin and were sent to slaughter but apparently had no visible lesions.Or if lesions were present M Bovis was not cultured. Green Meadows farm in Elsie had 670 TB suspect animals, 12 % of their cattle but all showed more sensitivity to the avian tuberculin on the comparitive cervical test.
We do not have a viable live animal test for bovine TB.
The decision on whether to call an animal negative or to send it to slaughter for further testing is a matter of opinion by the veterinarian conducting the intradermal tests.


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## scott kavanaugh (Jan 8, 2006)

e. fairbanks said:


> This part of the Forum being concerned w/wildlife disease:
> Our bovine TB CAUDAL FOLD INTRADERMAL TESTS in Michigan reveal 5 to 7 % positive results. The comparative cervical test (bovine vs avian tuberculin) result in allmost all responses indicating more avian sensitivity.
> TESTING 1,000,000 OF OUR MICHIGAN CATTLE REVEALS THAT 5000 TO 7000 ARE INFECTED W/AVIAN TB AND OR THE SO CALLED AVIAN COMPLEX
> sHOULD WE BE CONCERNED ?
> ...


Are you insinuating that schmidt isn't useing all the information available to him when forming his decisions and communicating them to the public?
Also I thought they were getting close to an effective live tb test, NO?


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## BigDog25 (Sep 19, 2008)

markbarth said:


> I talked to Bridget Patrick of the MDA and she said that the timing of the commercials,coming out as the same time CWD was discovered,was purely coincidental. How naive!
> 
> According to Bridget the MDA got a grant from the government to produce these ads. How convienent!!
> 
> ...


You seem to be swaying to the conspiracy theories of the almighty DNR....Can you give one instance the DNR lied about something, made a big story up to fool the public for personal gain?


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## MUDDY4LIFE (Apr 13, 2001)

BigDog25 QUOTE*
You seem to be swaying to the conspiracy theories of the almighty DNR....Can you give one instance the DNR lied about something, made a big story up to fool the public for personal gain? 
END QUOTE*

BigDog, I know your question was not directed at me, but me being around some of the deceit/corruption within the DNR for years now, please allow ME to share with you, just ONE of my answers to the above question that you directed to Mark.My story has nothing to do with CWD, but you best beleive that it has alot to do with LIES and GAIN within the Department.


Lets take a good look at what they have done to the ORV safety program since their take-over on Oct 1st of 2003. The Department has Hired untrained and inexperienced law enforcement officers to teach our kids, under the age of 16 years old,safety classes they themselves have little/no qualifications to do in the first place.These cops are hired on the merit of their BADGES and most dont even own or ride a ATV or Dirtbike.YOU CANT TEACH SOMETHING YOU YOURSELF HAVE LITTLE/NO KNOWLEDGE OF------PERIOD! [ can YOU say DECEIT:rant:]

When I asked the DNR back in 2004 if they were following the Administrative Rules set forth by the DOE that dictated HOW the ORV Safety Program was to be run and if the DOE Ad Rules to license Instructors was being followed, their answer was YES.------ BigDog, I can tell you, that the DNR LIED!

Oh, lets add some more fun to this picture. In 2004, the DNR took away grant funding dollars from EXPERIENCED and ACCREDITTED Non-Profit and Private enterprize ORV instructors,and gave it to their untrained and unqualified LEO buddies.

To PROVE my point, lets take a quick look at the paper work that Lt Turner of the DNR gave out at this past Novemeber's ORV Board meeting. 

Wayne County Sheriffs Department [ fiscal year 2008] trained 2476 kids for the year and they did this with teaching only 37 classes. This amounts to an AVERAGE of 66.9 kids in every ORV safety class taught for FY 2008, and from this ORV safety Education Grant fund, they can receive 20 bucks per student or a classroom total of 1338.00 PER CLASS from the ORV safety Education Grant fund for ONE safety class.

Lets go to Sanilac Sheriffs Department*They trained 441 kids for FY 2008 and did this amount in just six classes or the equivilent of 73 kids average in EVERY safety class. At 20 bucks per student x 73 kids per safety class, the instructor would soak-up 1470.00 from the ORV safety Education fund for a 3-4 hour safety class.

I myself am a professionally trained ORV Safety Instructor who was trained by an Accredited ORV Safety Institution.I have taught 100s of families here in Michigan.I am telling you that there is NO WAY to PROPERLY instruct 65 kids in ONE ORV safety class.[ try telling the DNR this ] But yet, on the back page of Lt Turners 4 page Grant Report, it clearly states that the DNR provides a COMPREHENSIVE ORV information,safety education, and training program to provide training of youthful operators. 

There is NOTHING ''comprehensive'' about what the DNR allows in their ORV safety education classes,including many of their LEO buddies that are wannabe instructors on the merits of only their badges.Sir, yet ANOTHER LIE from the Department.

Neither the DNR or their LEO buddies have the best interest of their students in mind, if they did, you would NOT see 66 kids or MORE in one class, taught by many untrained/unqualified Instructors, while at the same time, SUCKING over 1300 bucks out of the ORV safety education fund, for the same class. 

You asked about PERSONAL GAIN and LIE'S within the Department.

Want MORE :lol:

__________________
Mich ORV Safety Assoc--DIRECTOR


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## hunterdude772 (Oct 26, 2008)

MUDDY4LIFE said:


> BigDog25 QUOTE*
> You seem to be swaying to the conspiracy theories of the almighty DNR....Can you give one instance the DNR lied about something, made a big story up to fool the public for personal gain?
> END QUOTE*
> 
> ...


Looks like you stumped the pro-DNR fellas.

Amazing what facts will do!!


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## 6inchtrack (Sep 29, 2008)

*[URL="http://sixinchtrack.tripod.com/"]http://sixinchtrack.tripod.com/*[/URL]
Start sending this link to your buddies, friends and family.


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## MUDDY4LIFE (Apr 13, 2001)

6 Inch,
thanks for that link, my letter will be sent in immediately.

Hunterdude 772,
Yah,its tough for ANY ONE within the Department to argue the facts that myself and others have brought forth against them concerning the ORV safety classes.I cant even get ONE of them to even ''challenge'' one word of my claims. To the DNRs defense though, its gotta be tough to challenge the truth:lol:.

Whats amusing here is that the DNR has no problem speaking out about the mis-use of ATVs and ORVs here in Michigan, but many of their OWN hired ORV Instructors have no problem sucking up the ORV safety education funds, for a class they dont even know HOW/WHAT to teach.


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## Surf and Turf (Mar 26, 2008)

I heard on the radio today that the dept of ag quarentined another farm here in michigan. One cow tested positive for sure so they are killing the whole herd. I am very sorry that I don't remember the farms location. I think it is near Alpena, but am not sure about that. I understand that they have to kill all the cattle to test them, but they said that they weren't even going to test them all only a few more. Why not test all of them if they are going to kill them all? They were checking to see where all the cattle came from and if any left the farm in the last year, where they went to. I also heard that a farm in Indiana had a cow test positive. This is not good for the farmers, nor it is good for our deer. To Bad.


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## e. fairbanks (Dec 6, 2007)

A cow in North Dakota and a fallow deer in New York were positive for bovine TB


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## BigDog25 (Sep 19, 2008)

hunterdude772 said:


> Looks like you stumped the pro-DNR fellas.
> 
> Amazing what facts will do!!



There wasn't a single FACT in the whole article....Other than a few weak statistics....Not to mention none of the facts had to do with a conspiracy or the DNR "dooping" the public.

It is amazing how everyone gives the DNR such little credit and there is always such bashing and bantering about them, yet so many people think they are smart enough to pull some mass conspiracy off against the public. COME ON PEOPLE...Turn the damn TV on and see there are far more greater things to worry about out there such as the economy or how about trying to get some youth involved in the sport. Only about 10% of the population hunts, 10% are anti's and the rest of the 80% are undecided. No one looks at the youth programs the DNR does, outreach in schools, programs at parks, etc. Because the same people bitching non stop on here are the ones who don't take their kids or other youth to do anything, don't attend meetings, donate volunteer, and don't donate money to outdoor organizations. Instead of trying to be such a part of the problem all the time, here is some advice, try doing something positive once in awhile. Sending chain letters about your opinion of the DNR doesn't accomplish much at all. I would be willing to bet none of the complainers on here even know that you can read the NRC minutes online. I would go out on a limb and be willing to be that I won't find a single complainers name on any of the monthly minutes where they list the people's names from the public and what comment they made to the NRC board. STRUM up the excuses and ******** about how the meeting is too far away, they don't announce them, etc.etc.etc., but its amazing the 40 or so people's names listed for this past months meeting minutes and their comments are both positive and negative against the DNR and I am sure they all don't just live next door to the meeting place.

By the way muddy4life, with the statistics of few instances in SE Michigan that you throw out there, and based on the location of where you live in the state, it sounds to me like you are angry that instead of the state offering courses for the public at a minimal fee, that you would rather them offer them through your organization 

http://www.michatv.com/

Privatize it, charge an arm and a leg, and make off like a bandit. The state is your competitor and they are beating you out of making some slick money off of some city folk who buy their kid an ATV and want to head north but need to be legal and don't have a clue. It amazing all the counties you mentioned are all in SE Michigan, conviently where you are from, instead of looking at the whole state. When I took ATV/ORV safety there were 3 people in my course.

You would think you would be happy based on House Bill 4323, not only will it give ATV riders more opportunities to ride, but it will be a great economic boost and stimulus package for Michigan's economy.


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## 6inchtrack (Sep 29, 2008)

BigDog25 said:


> It is amazing how everyone gives the DNR such little credit and there is always such bashing and bantering about them, yet so many people think they are smart enough to pull some mass conspiracy off against the public. COME ON PEOPLE...Turn the damn TV on and see there are far more greater things to worry about out there such as the economy
> 
> Yep, the fricking economy. Dude, I get laid off indefinitely on the 18th. We were not successful in harvesting any deer this year (and not for the lack of trying), so we have no venison in our freezer. We killed 4 last year but we were allowed to use bait. I didnt chose this ban, it was chosen for me. There was 1 deer, and it was in a pen.
> or how about trying to get some youth involved in the sport.
> ...


If you oppose the baiting ban go to this site and print a letter to send to your elected officials.
*http://sixinchtrack.tripod.com/*


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## scott kavanaugh (Jan 8, 2006)

What did taking thousands of hunters out of the woods and bankrupting some businesses and farmers do for the economy?

I too had a son that would have been a first year deer hunter, you know who didn't buy a licence. 

We spend untold hours every year picking up and disposing of trash from public lands. We feed turkey and deer in the winter. I started 30 years ago donating and suggesting to Michigans DNR ways to improve things.

Let me tell you something about the minutes of the nrc. Ive sat through there meetings. More than I'd care to. Those folks leave out and put in what ever they want, period. Thats not a conspiricy theory, it's a fact.

Well six, as far as bigdogs colorful language. He appears to be cut of the cloth from the dnr/qdmers, See those folks play by different rules than the majority of folks in michigan the plain old hunters (thats us) in case you were confused.

bigdog can swear at us and rant, because he's representing the pro dnr/ qdm/bait/nrc stance. Let us try to point out there ranting or problems with there positions or return a slur and a pro qdm mod comes down on your head, or in my case censors my post and axes it. Guess it's just the price of being right.:lol:


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## e. fairbanks (Dec 6, 2007)

It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it.
ESTIMATING THE TRUE PREVALENCE OF MYCOBACTERIUM BOVIS IN HUNTER HARVESTED W/TAIL DEER IN MICHIGAN
http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/content/abstract/40/1/4
This study indicates we miss 1% of infected deer in 452
In contrast, of the 10,000 lesions submitted by slaughter surveillance (2007) only 24 (.24%) were culture positive for bovine TB.


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## e. fairbanks (Dec 6, 2007)

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/content/abstract/40/1/42


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