# Trout swallow the hook...how to prevent?



## OH-YEAH!!!

Shoeman said:


> Oh and you're just a heathen bastard fishing flies! (Yeah) How dare you releasing fish! They will die anyway. Might as well hook and cook! :lol:


Shoeman, the uncited science is that killing the breeders without limitation is GREAT for the resource... :0


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## sfw1960

BAIT???
:yikes: 
I always used to use crawlers & a Texas rigged #6 -181 baitholder, 32nd oz worm weight.
Rare was the fish that swallowed the hook, most of the time was brookies - yaknow, _non-invasives_?
:lol:
They stayed alive a long time on the stringer - right about the time I climbed up the bank & iced them for a trip to the butcher shop.
I haven't trout fished in dang near 15 years now.
Hold your rod tip UP and don't let them scarf it ti the pectoral fins & all's good...
:coolgleam


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## -Axiom-

Jfish said:


> A lot of good info here...and some bad.
> 
> I was setting the hook quickly. Perhaps not quick enough.
> 
> I'm mainly looking for hook advice while holding bait.
> 
> I also cut the line when sublegal. However when they're bleeding all over I highly doubt they'll live.
> 
> What hooks are you bait fisherman using?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 If I'm expecting 12" trout max I use a size 6 aberdeen hook with a 1/2 crawler.

For bigger trout I usually use a size 4 aberdeen.

With just enough weight to get it down & bouncing along the bottom.


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## Jfish

I'll try the Aberdeen. There are some 18+ in some of the holes


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## Waz_51

I only do minimal trout fishing but I have found over the last couple years that the appropriate sized octopus hook has proven to be the most effective...very minimal number of deep hook ups and they seem to catch around the lips or jaws very effectively


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## Waz_51

This goes for all species that I target including the notoriously, frequently deep hooked perch


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## SWMbruiser

I don't do a ton of trout fishing either but when I do I too use a 6 Aberdeen....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## swaprat

i am assuming you were not trolling and assume you put it in the wrong part of the form? was this for center pin angling???


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## mondrella

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> A trout that swallows the worm hook is a dead trout. If it's sub legal, it is a wasted trout.
> 
> But some bait fishermen don't have enough respect for the resource to care about avoiding harm to the sub legal fish.
> 
> trout are resilient and populations bounce back...though they're stocked fish so who cares...
> 
> Culling fish for spawn is the best way to preserve the breeding population...


 There was a question asked and information given. I answered that question. Along with a pm to the person who originated this thread. If you wish to discuss the tangent you want to take this thread. Start your own.


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## OH-YEAH!!!

Mondrella, I think this thread which starts by pointing out that "almost all of them were gut hooked", legal and sub legal trout the angler caught on worms, swallowed the hook is the perfect place for making the points you quote above. 

Seems like some folks can't handle the truth. As the thread begins, bait fishing IS lethal to legal and sub legal trout. I commend the original poster for wishing to avoid killing sub legal trout. Seeing how this thread was posted in the "fly fishing" forum, I offer this suggestion: that the original poster try dry fly fishing with barbless hooks. It reduces the amount of time needed to handle and unhook fish. You will also be setting the hook on the moment you see the fish bite as opposed to having to wait until you feel the fish bite and probably swallow the worm.

I know that the idea of proposing fly fishing on a MS forum linked as flytyingforums.com may seem like "trolling" or "pot stirring" but that's what I think.


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## OH-YEAH!!!

Jfish said:


> I plan on doing some brook and rainbow trout fishing here soon. Last time we killed them, literally. We were using worms and hooks. (Ignore this post if you're die hard against using worms.)
> 
> We were slaying them no doubt, but almost all of them were gut hooked. Average size was 8-12".
> 
> What kind of hook and size could I use to prevent this? I don't think it's right to throw a fish back that's under legal size if it's bleeding...but if you don't want to get in trouble you have to!


I am going to offer this wildly controversial advice for an unfortunate circumstance and a request for advice which you posted in the forum linked as flytyingforums.com in response to your inquiry on how to avoid that "almost all of them were gut hooked" :

Try dry fly fishing with hoppers. This is the time of year that grasshopper patterns can be most effective. They are large dry flies and you likely will avoid having sub legal fish swallow the fly.

Thank you for caring enough about the resource to care about not killing sub legal fish. You can learn a great deal more about trout conservation at www.tu.org . Also, if you do not fly fish but would like to learn, I would be happy spending an afternoon offering any pointers I can on the PM or White or Little Manistee if I can get an afternoon free. I can loan you the fly rod/reel for the day.

Tight lines!


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## Jfish

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> I am going to offer this wildly controversial advice for an unfortunate circumstance and a request for advice which you posted in the forum linked as flytyingforums.com in response to your inquiry on how to avoid that "almost all of them were gut hooked" :
> 
> Try dry fly fishing with hoppers. This is the time of year that grasshopper patterns can be most effective. They are large dry flies and you likely will avoid having sub legal fish swallow the fly.
> 
> Thank you for caring enough about the resource to care about not killing sub legal fish. You can learn a great deal more about trout conservation at www.tu.org . Also, if you do not fly fish but would like to learn, I would be happy spending an afternoon offering any pointers I can on the PM or White or Little Manistee if I can get an afternoon free. I can loan you the fly rod/reel for the day.
> 
> Tight lines!


I do fly fish. I have a membership at a trout club here in OH. I spend $1000+ per year to have it. I have many fly rods including custom made rods.

I posted this in the section labeled; flytyingforums.com, fly tying, TROUT FISHING.

This is the appropriate section for this topic.

I also have a membership to TU in which I am almost ashamed to have. I believe that they do a lot of good but also a lot of stuff that I don't agree with. It's folks such as yourself with a holier than thou attitude that turn people away from fly fishing.

I have found some holes that contain brook trout finally. After years and many many hours of searching. Not by anyone's help because people in the UP don't like to share. We like to eat brook trout. I don't believe in over harvest. However, when I've had my fill...I will fly fish.


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## Shoeman

Yup, Paul's a piece a of crap! How dare him release a fish. I'm about to sell all my rods with that in mind. :lol:


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## the rapids

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Mondrella, I think this thread which starts by pointing out that "almost all of them were gut hooked", legal and sub legal trout the angler caught on worms, swallowed the hook is the perfect place for making the points you quote above.
> 
> Seems like some folks can't handle the truth. As the thread begins, bait fishing IS lethal to legal and sub legal trout. I commend the original poster for wishing to avoid killing sub legal trout. Seeing how this thread was posted in the "fly fishing" forum, I offer this suggestion: that the original poster try dry fly fishing with barbless hooks. It reduces the amount of time needed to handle and unhook fish. You will also be setting the hook on the moment you see the fish bite as opposed to having to wait until you feel the fish bite and probably swallow the worm.
> 
> I know that the idea of proposing fly fishing on a MS forum linked as flytyingforums.com may seem like "trolling" or "pot stirring" but that's what I think.


 
I had the opportunity to fish up north for 5 consecutive nights recently.... while pre hex fishing I actually gill-hooked or otherwise deep hooked many fish between 4-15 inches and this while fishing Iso pattern dry flies. Unfortunately I doubt the sub legal ones survived, and for sure one of the larger fish didn't make it but it was caught on a river with bigger size limits. fish that want to hammer a presentation are going to do so no matter if it is bait, fly or other...

edit: I should add that cumulatively, the negative impacts resulting from the industrial pollution which was required to manufacture my fly gear, the pollution I caused by driving to go fish, and other ecological impacts caused by being a recreational fisherman and not a subsistence fisherman using paleo-methods of spear or rock weir were of greater damage to our resources on this planet.


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## Cullz

Look up hank Patterson on youtube. He will teach you everything you need to know!!&#128513;&#128077;


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## OH-YEAH!!!

Shoeman said:


> Yup, Paul's a piece a of crap! How dare him release a fish. I'm about to sell all my rods with that in mind. :lol:


Shoeman, I offer to take the original poster fly fishing and apparently have upset him. I never said he didn't have to kill his legal sized fish and yet his feelings are ruffled. 

This truly will be my last post in here. In a website titled flytyingforums.com I get flamed for suggesting hopper fishing in July as a way of preventing the original poster from "gut hooking almost all" the legal and sub legal trout he catches with worms.

Who said Michigan Sportsman is primarily anti-fly fishing... 

Original poster, nice set up. But you proved this site is no place for catch and release advocates. You are a hero, though! You drove away the enemy - a catch and release fly fisherman! You will be lauded by many!


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## Boozer

This thread is really sad...

This entire site has become very sad as of late...


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## MERGANZER

The OP asked a simple question and you want to be a jerk to him. He broke no laws and was trying to stop the gut hooking of the trout he was targeting. That being said I use an 8 aberdeen no weight free drift it and with plenty of slack so it flows naturally. If it is hooked anywhere deeper then the lips the line is cut the fish is revived in the current till it swims away. Good luck to you.

Ganzer


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## Boozer

troutguy26 said:


> I am in no way trying to start an argument or debate with you. Just thought I would share this. http://www.riverdee.org.uk/FileLibrary/Impact of worming on survival of released fish.pdf


Now take that study and add all the Brown Trout being tongue hooked by the large streamers which are so popular nowadays and configure that against bait hooked fish, bet there wouldn't be much difference...

The fact is this, to all involved in this thread...

NO MATTER WHAT METHOD YOU CHOOSE TO FISH, IF YOU DON'T UTILIZE PROPER TECHNIQUE WHEN PRESENTING YOUR BAIT/FLY/LURE, WHEN DETECTING THE STRIKE AND SETTING THE HOOK, AND WHILE HANDLING THE FISH FOR RELEASE. ALL THESE METHODS CAN BE EQUALLY LIFE THREATENING TO TROUT. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS, YOU CLEARLY DON'T HAVE MUCH EXPERIENCE FISHING STREAM TROUT OR FISHING IN GENERAL...

EVEN DRY FLIES CAN BE TAKEN DEEPLY IF YOUR LATE ON THE SET...

I WOULD BET A YEARS WAGES, MORE TROUT DIE TO IMPROPER HANDLING PRIOR TO RELEASE THAN ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS STATE WHEN COMPARING BAIT HOOKED FISH TO FLY CAUGHT FISH BEING RELEASED...

The worst part about all this...

This void between fly fisherman and bait fisherman, is the outcome of decades of marketing. Fly fishing manufacturers knew long ago, if they created this void, they could sell their fly fishing gear for much much more money. By creating a void and making fly fishing seem elitist, they drew in the types of people who would be more apt to blow large amounts of money on stuff that otherwise would be sold for much much less. One great example is that, fly rod manufacturers have found if they charge less for their gear, they sell less because the average Joe fly fisherman doesn't think it's as good as other stuff priced higher "THIS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE IN THE HIGHER END MODELS", not making this stuff up, ask anyone in the know. The roots of fly fishing and those that did it, fished bait too, you boys need to learn to work together against the crap that really matters instead of this petty non-sense of fly fisherman against bait fisherman. I see it going too far on both sides on this site lately, ****ing lame...

Possibly the worst outcome of all this "clever marketing" is the fact, some conservation groups took that practice on too in order to obtain larger amounts of donations, etc... and now in the end, it will be our demise to the real threats one day if it isn't stopped. No matter how much money you dump into conservation, if you don't unite all anglers, the end result will never be what it could.

Anglers aren't the threat boys & girls... Massive corporations, loss of funding to our natural resources divisions of Government, etc... that's the real stinking issues... Pull your heads out of your arses and realize it or say goodbye to your quality fishing...

My guess is, this entire thread was the result of a troll wanting to start a fight amongst fly fisherman and bait fisherman...


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## plugger

To avoid deep hooking and handling stress on small trout fish after 11:00 pm, throw large dry flies only to large actively feeding fish. I have fished every night but two for the last 3+ weeks and have only hooked two fish under 16". I must admit I have gill hooked some 20 inch plus fish, these were eaten! Target slow deep waters with cover.


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## Shoeman

plugger said:


> To avoid deep hooking and handling stress on small trout fish after 11:00 pm, throw large dry flies only to large actively feeding fish. I have fished every night but two for the last 3+ weeks and have only hooked two fish under 16". I must admit I have gill hooked some 20 inch plus fish, these were eaten! Target slow deep waters with cover.


Good for you Mike!

Lucky you! :lol:


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## Rasputin

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Shoeman, I offer to take the original poster fly fishing and apparently have upset him. I never said he didn't have to kill his legal sized fish and yet his feelings are ruffled.
> 
> This truly will be my last post in here. In a website titled flytyingforums.com I get flamed for suggesting hopper fishing in July as a way of preventing the original poster from "gut hooking almost all" the legal and sub legal trout he catches with worms.
> 
> Who said Michigan Sportsman is primarily anti-fly fishing...
> 
> Original poster, nice set up. But you proved this site is no place for catch and release advocates. You are a hero, though! You drove away the enemy - a catch and release fly fisherman! You will be lauded by many!


 
Paul, you can't say anything on this site without someone taking exception. There is just too big of an audience. Kudos to you for being willing to express your opinion, you just need to get some thicker skin. Sticks and stones..............
I'm not saying I agree with you, but this site would not be so interesting if everyone agreed on everything. 

My advice to you is to stop being angry, stop being offended. Keep your chin up. Just as you would like those that oppose you to be open to considering your position, return the favor. And most importantly, let me know when you are going to buy mke a beer at Odd Side.


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## OH-YEAH!!!

Dammit, Rasputin... 

How can I not reply to an invite to drink beer.

How's this Friday for you? 4 or 5 pm? 

Is it OK if we open it up to anyone who would like to have a beer with us? First round is on me...

Boozer, don't you fish with top of the line Scott and Hardy gear? I fish with good gear because it performs vastly better, in my opinion. I wait til close out sales though because I am not so vain that I need an $800 B3X when last year's models get blown out by big fly shops like www.mrfc.com for $300 off. They have Sage TCX and Sage 99s on close out and I actually could justify a 990-4 TCX but have a 10 weight B2x that has never been used...

It's all what you like and believe...but there is a very offsetting, anti fly fishing vein in this website (see the Pure Marquette thread in the NW stream forum)


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## Boozer

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Dammit, Rasputin...
> 
> How can I not reply to an invite to drink beer.
> 
> How's this Friday for you? 4 or 5 pm?
> 
> Is it OK if we open it up to anyone who would like to have a beer with us? First round is on me...
> 
> Boozer, don't you fish with top of the line Scott and Hardy gear? I fish with good gear because it performs vastly better, in my opinion. I wait til close out sales though because I am not so vain that I need an $800 B3X when last year's models get blown out by big fly shops like www.mrfc.com for $300 off.
> 
> It's all what you like and believe...but there is a very offsetting, anti fly fishing vein in this website (see the Pure Marquette thread in the NW stream forum)


I have owned many high end fly rods, also owned some lower end ones that performed as well or better. I haven't paid full price or even close to that for a rod in years, way too many used once rods out there for sale at pennies on the dollar...

You missed the entire point...

What I was getting at is simple... the real threat isn't other anglers, the quicker anglers on both sides of this ridiculous ordeal realize that, the better off all will be including our resources...

I see what you see as far as anti fly fishing and I hate it as no anglers should be fighting amongst each other, I also see anti bait fishing and I equally despise that...


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## Rasputin

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Dammit, Rasputin...
> 
> How can I not reply to an invite to drink beer.
> 
> How's this Friday for you? 4 or 5 pm?
> 
> Is it OK if we open it up to anyone who would like to have a beer with us? First round is on me...
> 
> Boozer, don't you fish with top of the line Scott and Hardy gear? I fish with good gear because it performs vastly better, in my opinion. I wait til close out sales though because I am not so vain that I need an $800 B3X when last year's models get blown out by big fly shops like www.mrfc.com for $300 off. They have Sage TCX and Sage 99s on close out and I actually could justify a 990-4 TCX but have a 10 weight B2x that has never been used...
> 
> It's all what you like and believe...but there is a very offsetting, anti fly fishing vein in this website (see the Pure Marquette thread in the NW stream forum)


Can't this Friday, on my way to Notre Dame, maybe next week, Mon-Thurs are all clear (I think?). You need to have a kid so you can find out how tough it is to find time to do anything!:lol:


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## plugger

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Axiom, you're right. Trout are no more special than dogfish or sheephead or carp. Hope the regs get changed soon and we can bowfish for them.


 Must be a Lee Wulff fan.


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## Trout King

plugger said:


> Must be a Lee Wulff fan.


Lee wulff loved spearing fish!


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## riverman

The new sport "internet fishing". Have to say that was some good bait and even better selection of water. Congrats on your catch.


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## Ranger Ray

Jfish said:


> I also have a membership to* TU in which I am almost ashamed to have*. I believe that they do a lot of good but also a lot of stuff that I don't agree with. It's folks such as yourself with a holier than thou attitude that turn people away from fly fishing.


You are welcome at GLFSA, we are for everyone sharing the resources equally.


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## MERGANZER

When did the whole bait fishing kills trout movement spring up? I maybe lose 3 to 4 fish per year that I don't release back due to the hook getting the gills etc. When that happens they go home and do not go to waste. 90% of my trout are returned to the water simply because I am not a big trout eater I'd rather target eyes, perch, gills etc if I want to eat.

Ganzer


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## carsonr2

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Mondrella, I think this thread which starts by pointing out that "almost all of them were gut hooked", legal and sub legal trout the angler caught on worms, swallowed the hook is the perfect place for making the points you quote above.
> 
> Seems like some folks can't handle the truth. As the thread begins, bait fishing IS lethal to legal and sub legal trout. I commend the original poster for wishing to avoid killing sub legal trout. Seeing how this thread was posted in the "fly fishing" forum, I offer this suggestion: that the original poster try *dry fly fishing with barbless hooks*. It reduces the amount of time needed to handle and unhook fish. You will also be setting the hook on the moment you see the fish bite as opposed to having to wait until you feel the fish bite and probably swallow the worm.
> 
> I know that the idea of proposing fly fishing on a MS forum linked as flytyingforums.com may seem like "trolling" or "pot stirring" but that's what I think.


OH-Yeah,

Actually the opposite is true from peer reviewed papers conducted after analysis on western streams concerning barbless hooks.

See Here (Read the last two paragraphs in the first column on page 76)

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sp...age&q=barbless hook & stiletto effect&f=false


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## troutguy26

^ that's some interesting stuff right there. Stiletto effect.


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## midwestfisherman

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> A trout that swallows the worm hook is a dead trout. If it's sub legal, it is a wasted trout.
> 
> But some bait fishermen don't have enough respect for the resource to care about avoiding harm to the sub legal fish.
> 
> trout are resilient and populations bounce back...though they're stocked fish so who cares...
> 
> Culling fish for spawn is the best way to preserve the breeding population...


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## midwestfisherman

The link below is for some self releasing hooks that can be used for trout, bass, catfish, etc. It's designed to release deep hooked fish without harm.

Shelton Products Shelton Release&#8482; (self releasing hook) Release Trout Alive

The hooks are about half way down on the page.

Not the best video but, it shows how effective and easy the hook is to use.


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## WILDCATWICK

carsonr2 said:


> OH-Yeah,
> 
> Actually the opposite is true from peer reviewed papers conducted after analysis on western streams concerning barbless hooks.
> 
> See Here (Read the last two paragraphs in the first column on page 76)
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Sp...age&q=barbless hook & stiletto effect&f=false


I would like to read the actual research. Not an authors vague opinion. Have your read the work itself??


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## fishinlk

Actually I've seen a couple studies that reason the barbless penatrates deepr. I pinch my barbs down on anything flies bigger than a 14 anyway, seems to get the best of both worlds. Holds the fish if I don't keep perssure on them but pulls out easier once I get them in.


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## troutguy26

I'm buying this book tonight. The author has a lot of credentials if you look into who he is.


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## troutguy26

midwestfisherman said:


> The link below is for some self releasing hooks that can be used for trout, bass, catfish, etc. It's designed to release deep hooked fish without harm.
> 
> Shelton Products Shelton Release (self releasing hook) Release Trout Alive
> 
> The hooks are about half way down on the page.
> 
> Not the best video but, it shows how effective and easy the hook is to use.
> 
> Trout Fishing w Shelton Catch & Release Hook System - YouTube


 I really liked all the stuff they had for people with disabilities. The logic seems there for the hooks, I guess I would need to see it in person.


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## REG

This is something I found on another site when searching for the Schill and Scarpella reference. It has some relevance here.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Barbed Hook Restrictions in Catch-and-Release Trout Fisheries: A Social Issue

D. J. SCHILL and R. L. SCARPELLA

Idaho Department of Fish and Game, 1414 East Locust Lane, Nampa, Idaho 83686, USA

Abstract.&#8212;We summarized results of past studies that directly compared hooking mortality of resident (nonanadromous) salmonids caught and released with barbed or barbless hooks. Barbed hooks produced lower hooking mortality in two of four comparisons with flies and in three of five comparisons with lures. Only 1 of 11 comparisons resulted in statistically significant differences in hooking mortality. In that instance, barbless baited hooks caused significantly less mortality than barbed hooks, but experimented design concerns limited the utility of this finding. Mean hooking mortality rates from past lure studies were slightly higher for barbed hooks than barbless ones, but the opposite was true for flies. For flies and lures combined, mean hooking mortality was 4.5% for barbed hooks and 4.2% for barbless hooks. Combination of test statistics from individual studies by gear type via meta-analysis yielded nonsignificant results for barbed versus barbless flies, lures, or flies and lures combined. We conclude that the use of barbed or barbless flies or lures plays no role in subsequent mortality of trout caught and released by anglers. Because natural mortality rates for wild trout in streams commonly range from 30% to 65% annually, a 0.3% mean difference in hooking mortality for the two hook types is irrelevant at the population level, even when fish are subjected to repeated capture. Based on existing mortality studies, there is no biological basis for barbed hook restrictions in artificial fly and lure fisheries for resident trout. Restricting barbed hooks appears to be a social issue. Managers proposing new special regulations to the angling public should consider the social costs of implementing barbed hook restrictions that produce no demonstrable biological gain.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

This research confirms the earlier work (1987) of Robert Behnke, the leading trout researcher in the USA. 

Behnke, 1987. Catch and Release Fishing, A decade of experience. Proceedings from USA National Sport Fishing Symposium.
Summary of Catch and Release based research over previous 10 years for National Sports Fishing Symposium, USA. &#8220;consistent agreement among hooking mortality studies that demonstrate no significant difference in mortality of fish caught and released on single, treble, barbed or barbless hooks.&#8221;

Professor Behnke wrote an editorial on pg. 56 in the Fall 2007 issue of TU's Trout magazine titled "Trading Stubbornness for Science". Trout Unlimited is dedicated to the preservation of cold water fisheries. To their credit, they did due diligence and refused to perpetuate the lie that barbless hooks improves the fishery.

To quote Dr. Behnke, ".....statistical analysis of many hooking studies performed over many years agreed that the type of hook was insignificant in determining mortality. Several state agencies, without an understanding of this scientific data instituted barbless-only restrictions on special regulations waters. When angling violations records were examined in Idaho and Oregon, the barbless violations were the most common. Almost all of these violations were accidental; a fly is broken off and in a moment of excitement, a new fly, not fitting the narrow legal description of barbless, is tied on and the angler commits a violation."

"In view of the fact that there is no scientific or biological justification for the barbless hook regulations, a change in the law in Idaho and Oregon was proposed. Public meeting were held. The hard core, no-kill, barbless-only fanatics generated lots of heat, but no light, in a passionate defense of an irrational opinion."

"I have characterized such irrational behavior by some anglers as a trivial pursuit and the arrogance of ignorance......"


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## carsonr2

WILDCATWICK said:


> I would like to read the actual research. Not an authors vague opinion. Have your read the work itself??
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yes I have, and if I had more time I'd lay everything out for you...but I don't get paid to do research for internet forums....go to the citations in the bibliography and you'll find more than enough data to keep you busy.

I just want to provide the data that is available based off of research and evidence, not opinion. I deal with others opinions on a day to day basis and find that some think the more they repeat something the more it becomes true.


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## Jfish

Boozer said:


> My guess is, this entire thread was the result of a troll wanting to start a fight amongst fly fisherman and bait fisherman...


No it wasn't. Appreciate the accusation...

It was an honest post looking for information in regards to preserving sub legal fish. 

As I stated in the op I was not interested in hearing a bunch of other stuff that this thread ended up entailing. Just how to reduce the amount of crawfish food.



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## Big Skip

Jfish said:


> No it wasn't. Appreciate the accusation...
> 
> It was an honest post looking for information in regards to preserving sub legal fish.
> 
> As I stated in the op I was not interested in hearing a bunch of other stuff that this thread ended up entailing. Just how to reduce the amount of crawfish food.
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Impossible to start a thread without all the big headed professionals telling you exactly the way it is. Thats why many good sportsman dont post anymore, sick of all the b.s.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## WILDCATWICK

carsonr2 said:


> Yes I have, and if I had more time I'd lay everything out for you...but I don't get paid to do research for internet forums....go to the citations in the bibliography and you'll find more than enough data to keep you busy.
> 
> I just want to provide the data that is available based off of research and evidence, not opinion. I deal with others opinions on a day to day basis and find that some think the more they repeat something the more it becomes true.


Well I asked because there is no bibliography on the link to review the research and there also is no complete data. You simply have an authors opinion of a Doctoral paper. What were the hook sizes what were hook gap sizes? Did these make a difference in the effects of barbless versus barbed? 

I usually keep my barbs on but it depends on the size of the hook. Without question I handle fish longer trying to get the barbed hooks out versus barbless. Wounds seem to be larger too. My wife more often not pinches her barb. So I frequently see the difference between the two methods. It just depends on the hooking IMO. Sometimes one way is better than the other.

You may want to look at page 77 of '_Barbless Hook and Stiletto Effect_' He states there is no statistical difference between the hook types and mortality. He does not state that barbed has a better survival rate.

I also think some, especially those taking the authors words as fact, to again read page 77. He states "This column highlighted *the great rebound* of cutthroat trout in Yellowstone lake and in it's outlet, Yellowstone River, after new regulations were implemented. A 13-inch maximum size limit was instituted in the lake and* no-kill regulations on the river*. I pointed out that no other trout species would have shown such dramatic response to special regulations as the cutthroat. Even with a 14-inch minimum size limit and two-fish bag limit, the Yellowstone Lake was severely depressed with annual angling pressure of only four to six hours per surface area."


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## Ranger Ray

WILDCATWICK said:


> I also think some, especially those taking the authors words as fact, to again read page 77. He states "This column highlighted *the great rebound* of cutthroat trout in Yellowstone lake and in it's outlet, Yellowstone River, after new regulations were implemented. A 13-inch maximum size limit was instituted in the lake and* no-kill regulations on the river*. I pointed out that no other trout species would have shown such dramatic response to special regulations as the cutthroat. Even with a 14-inch minimum size limit and two-fish bag limit, the Yellowstone Lake was severely depressed with annual angling pressure of only four to six hours per surface area."


I doubt anyone would argue the fact that regulations and restrictions were needed in the case of the cutthroat trout out west.* "Needed" *being the key word here.


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## troutguy26

Ranger Ray said:


> I doubt anyone would argue the fact that regulations and restrictions were needed in the case of the cutthroat trout out west.* "Needed" *being the key word here.


Exactly


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## sfw1960

This over invasives??? :lol:

Sent from my NX008HD8G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## WILDCATWICK

sfw1960 said:


> This over invasives??? :lol:
> 
> Sent from my NX008HD8G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


This comment comes up every now and then....isn't it obvious that the answer is yes. It's not like their a nuisance species. People spend a lot of time and effort to this "invasive" cause. 

Ranger my point was that the author was a bit vague in his writing. There are many important factors that are being left out. With that said how can we take what he writes as definitive fact? I might have to go buy the book. Looks like a good read and I would love to read the actual research.

Troutguy26, maybe once you get the book you can post the information on name and date of the doctoral, so people can read it and make their own conclusions.


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## sfw1960

Good post!


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## troutguy26

I would be glad to do that, I got the book for a very reasonable price off eBay. 

In that link that was posted you can flip pages and read more than that one page. I personally like books over the whole internet thing so I chose to buy it. It will be a nice addition to all the others anyway.


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## Boozer

Jfish said:


> No it wasn't. Appreciate the accusation...
> 
> It was an honest post looking for information in regards to preserving sub legal fish.
> 
> As I stated in the op I was not interested in hearing a bunch of other stuff that this thread ended up entailing. Just how to reduce the amount of crawfish food.
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I apologize then for the accusation, the fact you posted it in the fly fishing forum, and the fact this has been such a heated debate as of late, well I would assume you can see where I was coming from. If there was one post that could start a war on here, you picked the right one and the perfect time and place to post it...

You did receive some good honest info prior to the debate started and there has been some good info posted because of your post, hopefully it helps you...


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## Jfish

Boozer said:


> I apologize then for the accusation, the fact you posted it in the fly fishing forum, and the fact this has been such a heated debate as of late, well I would assume you can see where I was coming from. If there was one post that could start a war on here, you picked the right one and the perfect time and place to post it...
> 
> You did receive some good honest info prior to the debate started and there has been some good info posted because of your post, hopefully it helps you...


Yes, the number 4 Aberdeen hook reduced the gut hooks by at least 90%.

Where should I have posted this? I thought that this is not only fly fishing or fly tying; but also trout fishing. As in trout fishing in general; not just on the fly?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Boozer

Jfish said:


> Yes, the number 4 Aberdeen hook reduced the gut hooks by at least 90%.
> 
> Where should I have posted this? I thought that this is not only fly fishing or fly tying; but also trout fishing. As in trout fishing in general; not just on the fly?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


You can post it anywhere you like man, the spot you posted it originally is generally used as a fly fishing forum, hence why the moderators moved your original post to here.

I personally could care less where you post it, glad you got some good info that helped!


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## Jfish

I just realized that it was even moved, I am on my phone.

I also think that it should be in the section where I posted it because that is what it says.

How does it even fall into a category of gear restrictions or regulations? The original post has nothing to do with them. It has to do with trout fishing. Besides someone getting off of the topic talking about gear restrictions.

What ever I got my answer. Maybe one of the mods can explain this to me?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Boozer

Jfish said:


> I just realized that it was even moved, I am on my phone.
> 
> I also think that it should be in the section where I posted it because that is what it says.
> 
> How does it even fall into a category of gear restrictions or regulations? The original post has nothing to do with them. It has to do with trout fishing. Besides someone getting off of the topic talking about gear restrictions.
> 
> What ever I got my answer. Maybe one of the mods can explain this to me?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


It was likely moved due to what the thread turned into...

Nothing personal man, glad you got your answer, these days, it seems like on this site, everything gets turned into a gear restrictions debate...

Good fishing to you


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## Ranger Ray

Jfish said:


> How does it even fall into a category of gear restrictions or regulations? The original post has nothing to do with them. It has to do with trout fishing. Besides someone getting off of the topic talking about gear restrictions.


It doesn't.


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## Jfish

Boozer said:


> Good fishing to you


You as well.


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## Jfish

Thanks for the replies from all of you. Especially the guys that gave me their insight on how to reduce gut hooking brook trout while fishing with worms. Selective harvest is always nice when done the right way.


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## Brian1204

Jfish,

Have you ever tried circle hooks? They are designed to be used with bait and to minimize deep hooking; very commonly used in saltwater as well as for catfish....


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## Splitshot

Jfish

I actually meant to post something earlier, but better late than never. As long as sport fishing is allowed some fish are going to die after being released no matter how they are caught. Our MDNR biologists have stated over and over that sport fishing has little if any effect on overall fish populations even when considering all the legal fish that are kept by fishermen. Having said that, the much smaller number of fish that die after being released using all methods is so insignificant the effects on the fishery arent even worth calculating.

Even so, wanting to reduce the mortality of fish you hook is an indication of caring and respect for the resource. Obviously your thread does not belong in this forum, but as you have learned it is easier to attack if seen in the context of changing a regulation instead of your original premise.

Brook trout in my opinion are the most difficult trout to hook before they swallow your hook, because sometimes they will hang on before taking the entire bait and is why some people count to 10 before setting the hook and sometimes they will engulf your bait quickly and sometimes one fish will take its time and the next one will swallow your bait quickly which complicates the problem.

Having had the experience of fishing with hundreds of fishermen and catching thousands of trout the biggest problem I see is most fishermen arent aware when they are getting a bite. I cant remember how many times I find my self saying to my fishing partner, set the hook, set the hook because he wasnt aware of a subtle change in his drift. The usual outcome is a missed fish, but smaller less educated fish dont react to the tension of the line and continue to ingest the bait.

The solution to the problem is concentration and experience. This year I landed almost a thousand legal trout and I only remember one trout that swallowed my hook and I know why. I always set the hook immediately after I detect a bite, but my line got twisted around my bale so it took a few seconds to fix the problem before setting the hook. Too late, so after landing him, I simply cut the line inside his mouth and released him. I assume he made it, but who really knows for sure.

You will get more bites if you use only enough weight to keep your bait moving at a natural rate and on the bottom. Sometimes this means changing to a smaller or larger splitshot and even changing your sinkers from hole to hole. Sometimes I even cut small pieces off my sinkers to get that perfect presentation that doesnt alert the trout. Using small baits and small hooks help too. Like a spike or wax worm on a tiny hook for bluegills means it is almost certain the hook is in the fishes mouth whenever you detect the bite. If you use worms or crawlers, try threading the worm on the hook as someone else mentioned with just a small section dangling off the end. Set the hook as soon as you detect a bite and even if you feel something is different.

Sometimes using a small bobber will help detect bites easier, but will also spook some trout as well, especially larger trout. It is just as important to mend your mono as it is to mend your fly line although it is probably a little more difficult master.

Circle hooks will decrease the number of gut hooked fish, but it also reduces your hooking percentage by about 30%. 

My solution is fish more, use the lightest fluorocarbon leader possible, small light hooks, fresh bait, fish upstream where possible, try to stay deep with a natural drift, keep a low profile, never push water and set the hook quickly and the problem will solve itself. 

Also be aware of taking advice from critical people who claim the moral high ground as some of them couldnt catch a goby in Lake St. Clair, yet they are experts based on what they have read.

Good luck and please post some pictures. Lots of people enjoy reading and seeing the results of other sportsmens outdoor adventures.


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## Fontinalis

Splitshot said:


> Jfish
> 
> I actually meant to post something earlier, but better late than never. As long as sport fishing is allowed some fish are going to die after being released no matter how they are caught. Our MDNR biologists have stated over and over that sport fishing has little if any effect on overall fish populations even when considering all the legal fish that are kept by fishermen. Having said that, the much smaller number of fish that die after being released using all methods is so insignificant the effects on the fishery aren&#8217;t even worth calculating.
> 
> Even so, wanting to reduce the mortality of fish you hook is an indication of caring and respect for the resource. Obviously your thread does not belong in this forum, but as you have learned it is easier to attack if seen in the context of changing a regulation instead of your original premise.
> 
> Brook trout in my opinion are the most difficult trout to hook before they swallow your hook, because sometimes they will hang on before taking the entire bait and is why some people count to 10 before setting the hook and sometimes they will engulf your bait quickly and sometimes one fish will take its time and the next one will swallow your bait quickly which complicates the problem.
> 
> Having had the experience of fishing with hundreds of fishermen and catching thousands of trout the biggest problem I see is most fishermen aren&#8217;t aware when they are getting a bite. I can&#8217;t remember how many times I find my self saying to my fishing partner, set the hook, set the hook because he wasn&#8217;t aware of a subtle change in his drift. The usual outcome is a missed fish, but smaller less educated fish don&#8217;t react to the tension of the line and continue to ingest the bait.
> 
> The solution to the problem is concentration and experience. This year I landed almost a thousand legal trout and I only remember one trout that swallowed my hook and I know why. I always set the hook immediately after I detect a bite, but my line got twisted around my bale so it took a few seconds to fix the problem before setting the hook. Too late, so after landing him, I simply cut the line inside his mouth and released him. I assume he made it, but who really knows for sure.
> 
> You will get more bites if you use only enough weight to keep your bait moving at a natural rate and on the bottom. Sometimes this means changing to a smaller or larger splitshot and even changing your sinkers from hole to hole. Sometimes I even cut small pieces off my sinkers to get that perfect presentation that doesn&#8217;t alert the trout. Using small baits and small hooks help too. Like a spike or wax worm on a tiny hook for bluegills means it is almost certain the hook is in the fishes mouth whenever you detect the bite. If you use worms or crawlers, try threading the worm on the hook as someone else mentioned with just a small section dangling off the end. Set the hook as soon as you detect a bite and even if you feel something is different.
> 
> Sometimes using a small bobber will help detect bites easier, but will also spook some trout as well, especially larger trout. It is just as important to mend your mono as it is to mend your fly line although it is probably a little more difficult master.
> 
> Circle hooks will decrease the number of gut hooked fish, but it also reduces your hooking percentage by about 30%.
> 
> My solution is fish more, use the lightest fluorocarbon leader possible, small light hooks, fresh bait, fish upstream where possible, try to stay deep with a natural drift, keep a low profile, never push water and set the hook quickly and the problem will solve itself.
> 
> Also be aware of taking advice from critical people who claim the moral high ground as some of them couldn&#8217;t catch a goby in Lake St. Clair, yet they are experts based on what they have read.
> 
> Good luck and please post some pictures. Lots of people enjoy reading and seeing the results of other sportsmen&#8217;s outdoor adventures.


To make SS's looooong story short. If you don't want to gut hook fish then don't use bait... :idea:


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