# When did man become a trophy hunter?



## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

Right around when cable & satellite T.V. came around being more main stream !! People watch a few t.v. shows showing them what to do with their land to help them get that TROPHY!! They do it they get a couple good buck's NOW they are EXPERTS on what all hunters want and need to shoot to be happy They can not for the life of themselves comprehend that some hunters are happy with a spike ,4pt,or 6pt!!


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

I disagree with TV BEING TE SOLE reason for man becoming a trophy hunter. I believe it is a natural progression as most people's maturation as a hunter. Stevie's Steps shows a very accurate progression.


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## Smokin-the-eyes (Jan 4, 2014)

What year was the first taxidermy mount done?
Pretty sure from the beginning of time if there was a spike and a 12 point standing next to eachother they woulda shot the 12


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## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

A trophy is in the eye of the hunter,if someone is struggling a small buck or doe feels pretty good. I am not a trophy hunter and I've been hunting for many years,I love the venison I harvest and treat each deer with the same respect be it a doe,small buck,or trophy. To me it's the hunt and the meat,a rack is a bonus...


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## cjpenny89 (Sep 12, 2006)

This has always been an issue it doesn't just go for deer hunting. the ancient Greeks had the first Olympics the played for fame and glory and probably trophies. since there have been cars men have raced them wanted faster cars the fastest cars for trophies, all kinds of competitions to show who was better or who was faster or who had the faster car who was stronger the best looking girl the list goes on and on and on. be honest it is all deep down inside us we all want to beat the next guy or we all have that one guy we just have to be better than if we are honest with ourselves we know it. our whole lives around us is bigger and better TV, Smart phones, Cars, guns, bow or cross bows why wouldn't you want to shoot a trophy deer? If your a meat hunter your silly to say you could care less about antler size because a mature buck with big antlers will have more meat on his body then a 1 year old with a small rack. age size means body weight and normally rack size increases!
but for all like I tell my QDM neighbors I will pass 95% but if that buck makes me happy I will shoot it. If its a trophy to you shoot it. I think anyone is silly to say they would not be happy to shoot a trophy
whitetail.
sometimes the story of how you shot and recovered the deer make it a trophy!


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## Hunter1979 (Feb 26, 2008)

There's a big difference between an isolated logging camp and the average hunter. I'd be willing to bet that the average hunter has at least one grocery store within 10 miles of their house. If they don't shoot a deer, chances are, they won't starve to death as they have the option to purchase food as often as they want.
Also, consider the amount of meat on a deer. I bet you get almost double the meat from a 3.5+ deer as you would a button or yearling.
If I go out and shoot a mature doe, then (hopefully) shot a 3.5+ year old (trophy) buck, I've got a lot of meat. I'd probably have to shoot a combination of around 3-4 yearling to 1.5 year old deer to get the same amount of meat. So while people say "you can't eat the horns" you definitely can't eat the bones on a young deer either. Maybe most trophy deer hunters are in it for all the extra meat?


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## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

And maybe a bunch of those trophy are eating tag soup instead of back straps!


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Those "stages of a hunter" were something dreamt up by someone stroking their ego and discouraging the killing of small bucks. 
I started at "stage 5", because that's the way I was taught. Being in "stage 5" should include the statement: "doesn't care what other hunters enjoy shooting"

And I still shoot spikes now and then!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

Rounder said:


> When did man become a trophy hunter? Some here have complained about slob hunters shooting any buck they can eat. Is this part of society moving from country to city? Did it become prominent with our industrial age? Logging camps used to live on deer, I doubt they were all big bucks.
> 
> Obviously it feeds our ego. Life became easy for man. Needed something.
> 
> Any talk of big racks in historical books?












Please name one of these trophy only hunters. I can't think of any. 

Who calls a guy who shoots a legal deer to eat a slob? Can't find that either. 

I'm on a mission to find these guys who belittle hunters for shooting legal deer and are only it for trophy horns. They are legends like Bigfoot that you hear a lot about but I'm not sure if the actually exist.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Lumberman said:


> Please name one of these trophy only hunters. I can't think of any.
> 
> Who calls a guy who shoots a legal deer to eat a slob? Can't find that either.
> 
> I'm on a mission to find these guys who belittle hunters for shooting legal deer and are only it for trophy horns. They are legends like Bigfoot that you hear a lot about but I'm not sure if the actually exist.


Mission acomplished! (You weren't trying very hard)
This is one example. I am not naming names, but if you follow certain posters you can find a surprising amount of belittling. (Most of it is smarmy passive aggressive stuff, though)

"I've heard that before, shooting a year n half buck takes about as much skill as shooting a squirrel they are the dumbest animals in the woods. Save them for the kids and guys who are shooting their first buck. For a grown adult who has years of hunting to go out n shoot one is a joke! nothing will change without the dnrs help."

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

As far as I can tell man became a trophy hunter about the same time he started painting on cave walls.


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## spznation (Oct 19, 2011)

The Boone and Crocket Club developed their scoring criteria in the 1920's. So I would say man was trophy hunting probably about 4000 years before that.


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## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

triplelunger said:


> Mission acomplished! (You weren't trying very hard)
> This is one example. I am not naming names, but if you follow certain posters you can find a surprising amount of belittling. (Most of it is smarmy passive aggressive stuff, though)
> 
> "I've heard that before, shooting a year n half buck takes about as much skill as shooting a squirrel they are the dumbest animals in the woods. Save them for the kids and guys who are shooting their first buck. For a grown adult who has years of hunting to go out n shoot one is a joke! nothing will change without the dnrs help."
> ...


Triple lunger described my "progression" also. and Lumberman must not have read many other threads on here where TL quotes come from. Those of us who shoot little bucks are held in as much esteem as "violators" (what poachers were called when I was young).


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Lumberman said:


> Please name one of these trophy only hunters. I can't think of any.
> 
> Who calls a guy who shoots a legal deer to eat a slob? Can't find that either.
> 
> I'm on a mission to find these guys who belittle hunters for shooting legal deer and are only it for trophy horns. They are legends like Bigfoot that you hear a lot about but I'm not sure if the actually exist.


There is a thread om here, complaining about UP hunters being slobs, and shooting small bucks. Downstater calling for UP deer management.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Lumberman said:


> Please name one of these trophy only hunters. I can't think of any.
> 
> Who calls a guy who shoots a legal deer to eat a slob? Can't find that either.
> 
> I'm on a mission to find these guys who belittle hunters for shooting legal deer and are only it for trophy horns. They are legends like Bigfoot that you hear a lot about but I'm not sure if the actually exist.


Read this nice little tidbit then do a search for wiping milk off the baby bucks mouth and you'll have a couple more.



farmlegend;4604898 said:


> No ***t. To some, it sure looks like it only counts as "hunter opportunity" if it's the opportunity to slay yearling forkhorns and spikes. Having the ability to kill any of the other 80%+ of the deer in the herd (antlerless deer, bucks with 3+ antler points per side), not so much.
> 
> 
> You would have thought that full inclusion of crossbows during archery season would have taken the tedious old "antlerless deer are completely off-limits to deer hunters in my DMU" myth off the table for once and for all. And you would have thought wrong, as the adolescent buck-lusting pigs continue to use the thinnest rationalizations imaginable.


If you want more...................it's available.

You're welcome


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

My guess is it happened when we became an industrial country. Men were not hunting regularly for food. Though men have always had egos. But hunger is a bigger drive then ego.

Reading Larry Benniots book, the foreward talks about how up until the 70s white tails were not talked about a lot, they were just a common animal to hunt. I found that interesting.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Last year I shot a fork, 4 feet of snow, he never stopped. I was going to wait for the big one, but I just get so excited when I see one. Plus I didnt want to go back out through all theat snow. I did feel a little cheapened that it was a fork, but I also felt satisfaction that I was one of the few that got one. Many people gave up, didn't hunt. Nice to have freezer full of meat.

I spent 11 days hunting this year. Which is typical. So I am not the hunter with limited time. I just like getting one, and hoping for the bog one.

This year I did tell myself I was going to pass, my goal is usually bigger then forks.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

I think most of us became "trophy" hunters as soon as we decided to pursue deer. The majority of hunters get a thrill out of of encounters with mature buck. I am no different. I like big bucks and I cannot lie! However, my priority in any given year is NOT a trophy buck. I am satisfied if I put one deer in the freezer. Big bucks are the icing on the cake.
*I would have to add that I am a freak of nature when it comes to stages*.... they are/were never adequate to categorize me.
*1) SHOOTER STAGE* (*Yep! My goal each and every year is still to draw, and make a humane kill with my bow... period!)*
The hunter talks about satisfaction with hunting being closely tied to being able to “get shooting.”

*2) LIMITING OUT STAGE* (*See above - I have never been in this stage. One shot - one clean kill has always done it for me.*)
A hunter still talks about satisfaction gained from shooting. But what seems more important is measuring success through the killing of game and the number of birds or animals shot.

*3) TROPHY STAGE* (*I like big bucks and I cannot lie)*
Satisfaction is described in terms of selectivity of game

*4) METHOD STAGE *(*This in part has been true - almost from day one minus "all the special equipment". I mean, I still kill nice deer with a 1997 Darton! "How" for me is always 20 yards or less with an arrow!*)
This hunter has all the special equipment. Hunting has become one of the most important things in his life. Satisfaction comes from the method that enables the hunter to take game. Taking game is important, but second to how it is taken.

*5) SPORTSMAN STAGE* (*I have pretty much always been here as well, and always enjoyed helping others get on deer. I cherish being a part of others "first deer" memories as much as I cherish my own time in the woods.)*
As a hunter ages and after many years of hunting, he “mellows out.” Satisfaction now can be found in the total hunting experience. Being in the field, enjoying the company of friends and family, and seeing nature outweigh the need for taking game.
<----<<<


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Using ones celebrity to sell hunting gear is bad?


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

Nice Shot 1982 said:


> What does the # of posts have to do with anything? Does Rounder need to achieve a certain level of authority to ask a specific question? Please clarify.


Not at all......but it does not mean he is still killing me...............


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

FREEPOP said:


> Read this nice little tidbit then do a search for wiping milk off the baby bucks mouth and you'll have a couple more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is conversational not in regards to someone's buck post. You are allowed to have an opinion in a conversation. 

Again looking for these the guy who post "I only care about horns". Or comments on a picture of a small buck calling the hunter a slob. Not someone rebuttal in a debate. 

We are getting closer though. Still no actually confirmation of this so called "chest beating trophy hunter".


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

I'm only playing devils advocate here, because since the advent of currency, people have adroitly capitalized on their recreational/entertainment skills to make a living. A few are good at it. A select few are very good at it. Extremely few are so good at it that their customers not only don't know they're a customer of an expert salesman, but they hold the salesman in the status of not merely a hero, but a legend and near God-like. That's what an expert salesman looks like. After forking over your money, you feel as if you're the lucky one to have the luxury of meeting or dealing with the salesman or his company.

Branding. Few are good enough to become their own brand. Fred Bear did it. Howard Hill did it. In present day politics, Donald Trump has done it. The brand is the man and vice versa.

The Legend's Story

*Howard Hill* devoted a lifetime to the promotion of archery, and is still considered the greatest archer/hunter of all time. Howard Hill Archery is owned and operated by archers and personal friends of Howard's with whom the company was started back in the 1950's.

Here are some of the events that have, over the past 80 years, made a lasting impression on the people throughout the world concerning *Howard Hill* and archery....


- Shot *exhibitions* in 3 world's fairs.
- Produced *23 short subjects* for Warner Brothers.
- Filmed "*Tembo*" in Africa--was shown in 57 countries and in seven different languages--RKO release.
- Did all the shooting in the following feature pictures: *Robin Hood, Elizabeth & Essex, They Died with Their Boots On, Dodge City, Virginia City, Buffalo Bill, Bandits of Sherwood Forest.*
- *Hunted* in 12 countries of the world.
- Took well over *2,000 animals* with a bow and arrow.
- First white man to kill an elephant with a bow and arrow.
- Appeared in 5 wild west shows.
- Published two best seller archery books: *Hunting the Hard Way* and *Wild Adventure*
- Appeared in 14 major Sportsman's Shows.
- Toured the United States putting on exhibitions for schools and general public.
- Won 196 Field Archery tournaments in a row.
- Won the Florida State Target Archery tournament in 1928.
- Wrote the first set of archery Golf Rules in 1928.
- Won 7 National Archery Golf Tournaments.
- Set new flight record of 391 yds., 1 ft., 11 in. on Feb. 26, 1928 at Miami, FL.
- Pulled 172 lb. bow--heaviest bow pulled by any man on record until recent years. (Items #16 & #17 verified by Dr. R.P. Elmer in Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1932.)
- Drew 35,000 spectators in Grants Park, Chicago in 1941, where the crowd tore the shirt off his back, and took his arrows, bow and quiver as souvenirs.
- Won the International Field Meet at Milwaukee, WI in 1942.
- Awarded a plaque by Archery Council of CA in 1959 for his outstanding achievements in archery.
- The Helms Athletic Foundation Hall of Fame in Los Angeles, CA has on displayarrows Hill shot in Robin Hood, his two books, and pictures.
- In January 1962, was elected an Honorary Life Member of the Professional Archery Association.
- In 1971, placed in the Alabama sports Hall of Fame.
- In 1975, A.B.C. Bow Hunter's Hall of Fame.
*OFFICIAL ABC GAME RECORDS -- Dec. 1976 Issue*


Lynx - 43 lb.. live weight, taken in Canada by Howard Hill of California.
Moose - 800 lb.. live weight, taken in Wyoming in late 1940's by Howard Hill of CA.
Javelina - 66 lb.. live weight, taken in Arizona by Howard Hill of CA in late 1940's.
Mountain Sheep - Had 11/2 curl of horns. 15 3/4 inches around base of each horn.
Taken in Wyoming in 1940 by Howard Hill of CA.
Mountain Goat - 7 inch horns, 300 lb.. live weight. Taken in Wyoming by Howard Hill of CA around 1940.
Alligator - 90011 score. Measured 9'11" tip to tip. Bowbagged in Florida by Howard Hill in the '30's. Howard lived in Florida then.
*Hunting with a bow* _appealed to Howard much more than did target archery. Consequently, his love of hunting was to take him to all parts of the world following the game trails and pitting his skill against all kinds of game, some that nearly cost him his life. Howard's greatness is probably reflected most in his long list of game taken with bow and arrow, dating back to 1925 when he bagged his first moose and white tail deer while on a hunting trip in Canada. From 1925 until he passed away in 1975, Howard compiled a record of kills that will undoubtedly never be equaled._


*The following is a partial list compiled from Howard's field notes showing his BOW & ARROW KILLS:*

*GAME KILLED IN AFRICA*

*BIRDS*


Egyptian Goose......1
Sand Grouse......4
Guinea Fowl......10
Lesser Bustard......6
Greater Bustard......2
Golden Crested Crane......1
Marabou Stork......2
Spur Fowl......6
Ducks......12
Hornbill......1
Buzzard......3
*BIG GAME*


Elephant......3
Buffalo......1
Lions......2
Leopard......1
Zebra......1
Impala......4
Wildebeest......2
Thomson's Gazelle......2
Hartebeest......1
Grant's Gazelle......2
Wart Hog......3
Forest Hog......1
Cheetah......2
*REPTILES & FISH*


Crocodile......13
Rock Python......3
Spotted Cobra......1
Black Mamba......2
Horned Viper......12
Catfish......12
Captain......1
*OTHER ANIMALS*


Jackals......2
Hyenas......4
Bat Eared Fox......3
Mongoose......4
Spring Hare......6
True Hare......8
*GAME KILLED IN NORTH AMERICA*

*BIG GAME*


Buffalo......1
Moose......4
Elk......3
Wild Jackass......12
Black Bear......6
Grizzly Bear......1
Mule Deer......27
White Tail Deer......7
Dwarf Deer......2
Black Tail Deer......36
Pacific Coast Deer......4
Pronghorn Antelope......4
Mountain Sheep......3
Wild Goat......129
Mountain Goat......2
Peccary......6
Wild Boar......101
Cougar......5
Jaguar......1
Lynx Cat......3
Bobcat......12
Timber Wolf......1
Coyote......5
Bull Hairy Seal......6
Bull Elephant Seal......1
*SMALL GAME*


Badger......6
Fox......12
Raccoon......25
Beaver......3
Armadillo......3
Rabbit (estimate)......1500
Opossum......6
Gray Squirrel......20
Red Squirrel......9
Ground Squirrel......500
Flying Squirrel......3
Rock Chuck......7
Ground Hog......4
Chipmunk......9
Marten......2
Mink......3
Weasel......6
*FISH*


Shark......40
Sailfish......3
Black Marlin Swordfish......1
Salt Water Rock Bass......3
Tuna......30
Ray......25
Swordfish......8
Sheephead......12
California Flying Fish......7
Mango Snapper......30
Salmon......25
Royal Chinook......64
Rainbow Trout......30
Broadbill Swordfish......2
Brook Trout......20
Small Mouth Bass......3
Large Mouth Bass......50
Cut Throat Trout......20
Scissor Bill Gar......250
Alligator Gar......2
*BIRDS*


Eagle......4
Hawk......17
Owl......8
Buzzard......20
Crow......7
Raven......3
Sand Hill Crane......3
Blue Grouse......26
Dusky Grouse......18
Ruffed Grouse......31
Fool Hen......40
Partridge......6
Bittern......1
Chukar Partridge......8
Sage Hen......35
Prairie Chicken......8
Ducks on the Wing......20
Other Ducks......30
Chinese Pheasant......21
Wild Turkey......4
Canadian Goose......2
Woodcock......4
Wilson Jacksnipe......8
California Mt. Quail......6
California Valley Quail......40
*REPTILES*


Alligator......8
Snake......100
Gila Monster......4
Iguana......6
Desert Swift......30
Fresh Water Turtle......20
Loggerhead Turtle......6
Giant Sea Turtle......3
_With a bow and arrow record such as this, it is little wonder that Howard Hill is considered the greatest archer-hunter of all time, and has often been referred to as _*"The Babe Ruth of Archery", "Mr. Archery", "King of the Archers", etc.*


*THE ELEPHANT STORY*
*Howard Hill has been asked many times to tell the facts on bagging an elephant with a bow and arrow.*
*Following is a list of questions and answers.*

How many elephants did you bag? _3_


How many arrows did it take for all three? _4_

How heavy a bow did you use? _115 lbs._

Was this a hand drawn bow? _Yes_

Did you use an explosive tip or poison on the tip of the arrow? _No_

How long an arrow did you use? _41" with a special designed broadhead_

How much did the broadhead weigh? _ 1700 grains_

How much penetration did you get? _31.5"_

Where is the best place to hit an elephant? _Between the ribs into the heart _


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Lumberman said:


> This is conversational not in regards to someone's buck post. You are allowed to have an opinion in a conversation.
> 
> Again looking for these the guy who post "I only care about horns". Or comments on a picture of a small buck calling the hunter a slob. Not someone rebuttal in a debate.
> 
> We are getting closer though. Still no actually confirmation of this so called "chest beating trophy hunter".


It has to be conversation.
It happened, all that I know of have been deleted and bans were passed out. It's common knowledge that you'll get banned, so it doesn't happen any more. The timing of "conversation" and references to "sparky" sometimes give a hint at whom it is aimed.

When you're bored, search for Sparky.

I doubt it'll do you any good, you've made your mind up before you hit the "Post Reply" button.


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

FREEPOP said:


> It has to be conversation.
> It happened, all that I know of have been deleted and bans were passed out. It's common knowledge that you'll get banned, so it doesn't happen any more. The timing of "conversation" and references to "sparky" sometimes give a hint at whom it is aimed.
> 
> When you're bored, search for Sparky.
> ...



Right I'm sure they exist somewhere. I'm mean there's some real idiots out there. But I just chalk them up as idiots. 

That being said not one single person will admit to being this straw man trophy hunter that is constantly paraded out there and talked about. 

The reality is we generally think the same. There are outliers out there on both sides but the vast majority of us are somewhere in the middle. 

My point is can we stop acting like there's this big majority of hunters who only care about horns and belittle anyone that shoots a small deer.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Lumberman said:


> Right I'm sure they exist somewhere. I'm mean there's some real idiots out there. But I just chalk them up as idiots.
> 
> That being said not one single person will admit to being this straw man trophy hunter that is constantly paraded out there and talked about.
> 
> ...


I see a good number of the key board commandos that think very little of their fellow hunters, much more than I like.


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## Steiny (May 30, 2011)

*When man admitted to himself that the meat he took hunting was costing him 100x more than what his wife bought at the store and her steaks tasted better... but still needed a reason to go freeze his nuts off while sitting in a tree.*

This is the best explanation I've seen.


Cool Fred Bear pics and Howard Hill stats !


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## hypox (Jan 23, 2000)

When hunting no longer became a necessary tool for survival to man.

No one is the U.S. *needs* to hunt for food, unless it's a personal decision enforced only by that person as a way of life. If someone decides to hunt, gather, farm and/or barter for 100% of their food as a life style, I applaud them. This is never a necessity in todays world in the U.S. though.

Food in the U.S. is plentiful to a point of a major epidemic of obesity and diabetes. Don't want to pay for food? Go to the state, church, community center, etc. You will be given enough food to survive.

Hunting is sport and recreation to the individual and that equals money to everyone else involved. The almighty dollar drives everything about hunting in todays world.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

hypox said:


> Hunting is sport and recreation to the individual and that equals money to everyone else involved. The almighty dollar drives everything about hunting in todays world.


Agreed. Money has and will tait anything it touches


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> When did man become a trophy hunter? Some here have complained about slob hunters shooting any buck they can eat. Is this part of society moving from country to city? Did it become prominent with our industrial age? Logging camps used to live on deer, I doubt they were all big bucks.
> 
> Obviously it feeds our ego. Life became easy for man. Needed something.
> 
> Any talk of big racks in historical books?


The better question is when were men not interested in big racks. This cave painting is over 17,000 year old.










As long as there has been sport hunting there has been an interest in big bucks with big racks.










Travel to Europe and look at all the spectacular antique wall mounts.










The really big question is, how could a human not be enthralled by something as spectacular as an adult male deer? Such a person probably does not appreciate a sunset, campfire, big bass, looking at the milky way on a dark clear night. How could you not think an adult male deer is amazing? 

I think that only in recent times, and entirely because of political reasons, and mainly on modern chat sites, people have started pretending they do not see any majesty in a fully formed adult animal that can spectacularly grow hundreds of inches of bone in just a couple of months. One of the wonders of the world that an animal can do that, and that we get to witness it.

Anybody who does not see the incredible beauty of it such an animal is probably stuck in some political argument, and does not realize that men have always been enthralled with giant antlers, giant horns, giant fish, giant claws and teeth, giant flocks and schools. You think it is something new but what is new is to pretend you are not impressed with what nature can produce because it meets some political ideology.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

My dad raised me to be the best i can be at what ever i decide to do. Shooting bucks with milk dripping off there lips is not the best I can do


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

jr28schalm said:


> My dad raised me to be the best i can be at what ever i decide to do. Shooting bucks with milk dripping off there lips is not the best I can do



So shooting big bucks make you a better person in general? Being a good person, parent, or friend is far more important, try being the best at that for awhile....


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Corey K said:


> So shooting big bucks make you a better person in general? Being a good person, parent, or friend is far more important, try being the best at that for awhile....


Agreed. I don't think condescending and selfishness are admiral qualities.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/H/HUNTING/

"Trophy' hunting has been around since the dawn of man. I do not know anyone whom hunts, specifically and singularily for wall mounts and does not enjoy venison. The connotation is largely a misnomer, and a negative one, generally coming from other hunters whom wish to not raise a standard in the sport hunting community.

Sure, I suppose a 'trophy' lies in the eyes of the beholder, to a certain extent. However, there are and have been standards to what defines a trophy across a species and organizations that track and record these animals. A trophy is a notable achievement for the hunter and for the species which he has hunted, based on numerous factors, but all have their benchmarks. Nothing wrong with this, nothing at all.

There is a difference in achievement that comes with killing a unique or an animal of notable age, size, combination of them all. It is defined and sets them apart from the rest of the species which they represent or are considered common or 'standard'. Sometimes it can be dumb luck, but it is generally accepted the killing of a 'trophy' animal has a higher than average skill or achievement attached to it.

A new hunter getting his first buck is a notable achievement for that hunter and most everyone recognizes that and applauds hunters on that note. However, it does not compare to the level of commitment or recognition to kill animals that are defined as 'trophy' from organizations like Boone and Crockett, Pope and Young, CBM...etc

Killing yearling bucks is akin to a kid on a sport's team getting a 'participation' trophy at the end of season. It recognizes effort and a level of commitment, and should be congratulated...but in no way is the same as winning the league, the District, or say the State Championship. It does not diminish the achievement, but it is not comparable to being on top.

There should be no belittlement, but let's be honest there is no comparison when looking at both in this light.


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## Nice Shot 1982 (Aug 31, 2013)

jr28schalm said:


> Same drive made me make 6 Figures a year...Now I stay home and raise my daughter and my wife makes 6 figures.....lol


Wow...just wow...my respect for you has increased exponentially knowing that you and your wife are allegedly earning a six-figure salary. Congratulations!


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## Nice Shot 1982 (Aug 31, 2013)

jr28schalm said:


> My dad raised me to be the best i can be at what ever i decide to do. Shooting bucks with milk dripping off **there** lips is not the best I can do


I normally refrain from doing this, but sorry; it's 'their.' 

Where can I make six-figures with terrible grammar?


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## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

jr28schalm said:


> Same drive made me make 6 Figures a year...Now I stay home and raise my daughter and my wife makes 6 figures.....lol


With all that money you should only shoot trophies,you should have your own land to manage and that's great,not everyone has that option or is as fortunate as you! I will shoot what I want and as long as legal and not apologize for it


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Rounder said:


> When did man become a trophy hunter? Some here have complained about slob hunters shooting any buck they can eat. Is this part of society moving from country to city? Did it become prominent with our industrial age? Logging camps used to live on deer, I doubt they were all big bucks.
> 
> Obviously it feeds our ego. Life became easy for man. Needed something.
> 
> Any talk of big racks in historical books?


Be honest, are you just mad everyone doesn't get a trophy?

Here you go


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Here's another, you can choose


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## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

That didn't take long. As predictable as the sun rising and setting. The APR elites are here now educating us rubes about raising our standards and I see now trying to change the argument to "we are not trophy hunters..." Much like other post on here about "I shoot mature deer so I have more meat thus I am really a meat hunter". They really just want to tell everyone else how to meat hunt. Must be they received new talking points recently.Talk about straw men arguments...


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## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

Lumberman. See how the APR team respects others who they think are against their cause? The original poster started a good discussion and your team is rushing in reinforcements to belittle and silence. ISIS has nothing on you all.


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

JVoutdoors said:


> Lumberman. See how the APR team respects others who they think are against their cause? The original poster started a good discussion and your team is rushing in reinforcements to belittle and silence. ISIS has nothing on you all.


Lol. The only person being belittle it the poor guy who made the mistake of pointing out he makes 6 figures. 

Being successful in this country will make you an enemy for sure.


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## andyotto (Sep 11, 2003)

Joe Archer said:


> I think most of us became "trophy" hunters as soon as we decided to pursue deer. The majority of hunters get a thrill out of of encounters with mature buck. I am no different. I like big bucks and I cannot lie! However, my priority in any given year is NOT a trophy buck. I am satisfied if I put one deer in the freezer. Big bucks are the icing on the cake.
> *I would have to add that I am a freak of nature when it comes to stages*.... they are/were never adequate to categorize me.
> *1) SHOOTER STAGE* (*Yep! My goal each and every year is still to draw, and make a humane kill with my bow... period!)*
> The hunter talks about satisfaction with hunting being closely tied to being able to “get shooting.”
> ...


Yea I agree the stages thing is kinda silly. It seems like a means of pushing an agenda. If a person doesn't believe in the same things you do they must not be as "evolved". Each stage can be viewed as just somebody's different opinion.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

Lumberman said:


> Lol. The only person being belittle it the poor guy who made the mistake of pointing out he makes 6 figures.
> 
> Being successful in this country will make you an enemy for sure.


Bragging about how much money you make is a D.B. move. It has nothing to do with being successful.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

The introduction and protection of wolves has turned me into a trophy fisherman. If I see a nice buck I consider myself lucky and the last one that I saw I let it go along with a spikehorn the same day.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

JVoutdoors said:


> That didn't take long. As predictable as the sun rising and setting. The APR elites are here now educating us rubes about raising our standards and I see now trying to change the argument to "we are not trophy hunters..." Much like other post on here about "I shoot mature deer so I have more meat thus I am really a meat hunter". They really just want to tell everyone else how to meat hunt. Must be they received new talking points recently.Talk about straw men arguments...


APR Elitists vs. Brown It's Down??


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

That was a db move on my part. My wife gave me a list of stuff to do today and im up set....lol I am sorry


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## Nice Shot 1982 (Aug 31, 2013)

Lumberman said:


> Lol. The only person being belittle it the poor guy who made the mistake of pointing out he makes 6 figures.
> 
> Being successful in this country will make you an enemy for sure.


Couldn't be further from the truth!

I like to think that I've experienced some success in my life (debatable to some), but I'd never throw around salaries or things of that nature in a public forum. It's an unsavory move. True success is in the eyes of the beholder.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

A better topic question may be..."At what point did the majority of America's whitetail deer hunters begin to feel that routinely killing yearling bucks was no longer as much of a challenge and no longer as satisfying as when they were when we were younger, now that education, gear and liberal tags has made killing such bucks quite easy for the majority of deer hunters?

Some 20-30 years ago, filming a 50 year old seasoned hunter shooting a spike off a bait pile with a 30-06 seemed cool. Now it feels a little more like an episode of "To Catch a Predator", where some old truck driver shows up at the house to meet the 12 year old boy.

Times change. Attitudes change. Like many here, my grandfather openly used racial and sexist language that would get anyone fired and shunned today. Attitudes change. That doesn't make him a bad person, he was simply a product of his times. Deer hunting attitudes, mores, customs and ethics are no different. Attitudes change in a bell curve. Some are on the forefront, the majority catch up in the big middle and some will never get there.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Maybe the biggest driver of "the trophy" was the advent of the photo camera?


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Alot of them old guys thought once a spike always a spike to


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> A better topic question may be..."At what point did the majority of America's whitetail deer hunters begin to feel that routinely killing yearling bucks was no longer as much of a challenge and no longer as satisfying as when they were when we were younger, now that education, gear and liberal tags has made killing such bucks quite easy for the majority of deer hunters?
> 
> Some 20-30 years ago, filming a 50 year old seasoned hunter shooting a spike off a bait pile with a 30-06 seemed cool. *Now it feels a little more like an episode of "To Catch a Predator", where some old truck driver shows up at the house to meet the 12 year old boy*.
> 
> Times change. Attitudes change. *Like many here, my grandfather openly used racial and sexist language that would get anyone fired and shunned today*. Attitudes change. That doesn't make him a bad person, he was simply a product of his times. Deer hunting attitudes, mores, customs and ethics are no different. Attitudes change in a bell curve. Some are on the forefront, the majority catch up in the big middle and some will never get there.


Holy Wah! 
*As long as you are willing to stay away from 12 year old boys and leave the racist/sexist remarks at home* - come up and hunt my neck of the woods with me. Just seeing a 1.5 year old buck (or any deer for that matter) can be a daunting challenge! Of course, if "challenge" is *really *what it is all about to you anyway.
<----<<<


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

jr28schalm said:


> That was a db move on my part. My wife gave me a list of stuff to do today and im up set....lol I am sorry


 Ya, I kinda figured that 6 digit salary included the 2 digits after the decimal point! 

Steve


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Joe Archer said:


> Holy Wah!
> *As long as you are willing to stay away from 12 year old boys and leave the racist/sexist remarks at home* - come up and hunt my neck of the woods with me. Just seeing a 1.5 year old buck (or any deer for that matter) can be a daunting challenge! Of course, if "challenge" is *really *what it is all about to you anyway.
> <----<<<


I wouldn't hunt in an area with very low game numbers as much as I wouldn't fish in a river with very few trout. I'd look elsewhere, improve my land or sell and look elsewhere in the state for huntable deer numbers. The same can be said for jobs or buying a house. I left SE Michigan 25 years ago for that very reason and couldn't be happier with my great decision to find a better place. But for the majority of deer hunters, killing a young buck every other 2-3 years or so isn't much of a big deal, if they want to shoot one.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> I* wouldn't hunt in an area with very low game numbers *as much as I wouldn't fish in a river with very few trout. I'd look elsewhere, improve my land or sell and look elsewhere in the state for huntable deer numbers. The same can be said for jobs or buying a house. I left SE Michigan 25 years ago for that very reason and couldn't be happier with my great decision to find a better place. But for the majority of deer hunters, killing a young buck every other 2-3 years or so isn't much of a big deal, if they want to shoot one.


Exactly! Those who say that they want a "challenge" balk at the potential to encounter one! It sounds like you just want to make hunting easier.... 
Big bucks DO exist all over Michigan... right now finding them is a challenge that many simply are not up to.
<----<<<


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I think the better question would be:

"When did some hunters start being overly concerned with what their neighbors and fellow sportsman bag?"


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

Hunter1979 said:


> There's a big difference between an isolated logging camp and the average hunter. I'd be willing to bet that the average hunter has at least one grocery store within 10 miles of their house. If they don't shoot a deer, chances are, they won't starve to death as they have the option to purchase food as often as they want.
> Also, consider the amount of meat on a deer. I bet you get almost double the meat from a 3.5+ deer as you would a button or yearling.
> If I go out and shoot a mature doe, then (hopefully) shot a 3.5+ year old (trophy) buck, I've got a lot of meat. I'd probably have to shoot a combination of around 3-4 yearling to 1.5 year old deer to get the same amount of meat. So while people say "you can't eat the horns" you definitely can't eat the bones on a young deer either. Maybe most trophy deer hunters are in it for all the extra meat?


I forgot the actual weight difference but i do know i got a lot more meat off the 6pt i shot in bow season then i did off the tag from not shooting a deer last year and the back straps tasted a lot better then the tag would have if i found a way to cook it!!


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

FREEPOP said:


> I think the better question would be:
> 
> "When did some hunters start being overly concerned with what their neighbors and fellow sportsman bag?"


LOL. That's funny because I was typing the exact same thing when you posted this.

I just can't muster the energy to understand why I should care about what another man does. All the hand wringing reminds me of teenage girls chattering about the outfit someone outside their clique wore.

For the life of me I cannot relate to all the hand wringing about what others do. Genuinely puzzles me.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

So far this year I'd probably fit in the trophy hunter category. Passed up several big bucks that I ordinarily would have shot. But if I see one of them again next week I just might shoot him. On the other hand, my kids have killed a bunch of deer this year, including a couple 1.5 year old bucks. 

The question is, "Why would anyone care one way or the other about what I did or did not shoot?"

Obsessing about others seems like a burdensome way to go through life.


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

FREEPOP said:


> I think the better question would be:
> 
> "When did some hunters start being overly concerned with what their neighbors and fellow sportsman bag?"


About 40,000 years ago but it's come a long way since then. We stop killing each other over game now we just bicker.


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## spikekilla (Jan 6, 2009)

Joe Archer said:


> Exactly! Those who say that they want a "challenge" balk at the potential to encounter one! It sounds like you just want to make hunting easier....
> Big bucks DO exist all over Michigan... right now finding them is a challenge that many simply are not up to.
> <----<<<


Very well put


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

U of M Fan said:


> Bragging about how much money you make is a D.B. move. It has nothing to do with being successful.


Total db move, but I would argue that many people include wages in evaluating how successful they are. There's nothing wrong with that either.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

It may be our awareness of conservation. When there were tons of deer people probably ate the first one to come by, and got back their duties.

I am not sure cave paintings prove anything. If you are going to paint a blob you want it to reconizibible


I appreciate beauty of big deer so much I eat the ugly ones.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

cscott711 said:


> Total db move, but I would argue that many people include wages in evaluating how successful they are. There's nothing wrong with that either.


I guess if it's a conversation about income or wealth it would be appropriate.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

FREEPOP said:


> I think the better question would be:
> 
> "When did some hunters start being overly concerned with what their neighbors and fellow sportsman bag?"


When the former passed that 1.5 year old ten times in bow season and saw it hanging on the latter's buck pole at noon on 11/15. 

I used to be that guy for sure. It frustrated the heck out of me. I'd be lying if there still isn't a moment of " what if" that goes through my head every time I see a young buck taken. When I scroll through pictures of bucks that've been shot, even my kids are more enthused by big antlers over little ones. Guess it's just part of our DNA, at least in my household.

However, it doesn't bother me at all anymore unless it's someone who shoots it to say they got "their buck" and scratch their backs with the 22" of antler they added to their collection. That's a Michigan mindset that needs to die quickly.

If there was some magic fairy dust that sprinkled 5.5 year old bucks all over the state just for next fall, I can guarantee you that hunting mindsets would change quickly. If you see a forky and a 150" ten point side by side, 99/100 are taking that 10 point. The guy that didn't had his gun jam on him.


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

When I realized that chic's dig big bucks.


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## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

cscott711 said:


> When the former passed that 1.5 year old ten times in bow season and saw it hanging on the latter's buck pole at noon on 11/15.
> 
> I used to be that guy for sure. It frustrated the heck out of me. I'd be lying if there still isn't a moment of " what if" that goes through my head every time I see a young buck taken. When I scroll through pictures of bucks that've been shot, even my kids are more enthused by big antlers over little ones. Guess it's just part of our DNA, at least in my household.
> 
> ...


You make a sensible case and are honest to yourself. I am asking for consideration as maybe the latter guy who got to sit twice for the season and due to that took the 1.5 when it presented itself to ensure some venison. I disagree with your MI mindset comment though. Those type of arguments are made by the APR team frequently on here and are in line with the crude comments earlier about old school mentalities, racist, pedophiles, etc. Hence my earlier post; just like in politics, some attack the other side and vilify and dehumanize them. I just cannot get on board with letting a group trying to get the state to manage a resource for their benefit. Especially on public land. I am not a brown it down hunter either. Do to limited hunting opportunities, before APRs in NW12 even, I would pass little ones and typically shoot a deer every 2-3 years. Or I use doe tags. Just don't worry about my little buck and do what you do like Freepop said.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I imagine that worrying about what someone bags when they're hunting is a political correctness of the hunting era.

God Bless you all and Merry Christmas


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## Plumbgranny (Dec 26, 2010)

Interesting discussion...read the entire thread on lunch. I think all of us are "trophy" hunters, but what is in question here is what is a "trophy". I could be wrong, but I doubt that many on this site pull the trigger or release an arrow at an animal that they do not value. Some posters here paint with a very wide brush and don't take into consideration the myriad of different circumstances and opportunities (or lack of) that apply to each of the 3/4 million(ish) deer hunters in MI. That being said, be open to different points of view and ask yourself if raising the bar would make your hunting experience more enjoyable. If so, reach higher, if not, keep doing what makes you happy. I have benefited from both sides of this discussion. On one hand I've challenged myself to work harder at taking a more mature animal and on the other I've been reminded that it's not so much about the size of the rack, but enjoying each hunt and taking a legal deer when and if I choose to do so based on the entire hunting experience and if I want more venison at that time.
W-2's aside (sorry, I had to), we all brag a little. This site is not only informative, it's a chance to display your "Trophy" to friends and fellow hunters.

Then again, maybe I'm full of crap


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

JVoutdoors said:


> You make a sensible case and are honest to yourself. I am asking for consideration as maybe the latter guy who got to sit twice for the season and due to that took the 1.5 when it presented itself to ensure some venison. I disagree with your MI mindset comment though. Those type of arguments are made by the APR team frequently on here and are in line with the crude comments earlier about old school mentalities, racist, pedophiles, etc. Hence my earlier post; just like in politics, some attack the other side and vilify and dehumanize them. I just cannot get on board with letting a group trying to get the state to manage a resource for their benefit. Especially on public land. I am not a brown it down hunter either. Do to limited hunting opportunities, before APRs in NW12 even, I would pass little ones and typically shoot a deer every 2-3 years. Or I use doe tags. Just don't worry about my little buck and do what you do like Freepop said.


I'm not worried about your little buck or wanting to put venison in your freezer. If you're venison hunting and had a 1.5 year old buck and a doe of the same size side by side and chose to shoot the buck, then I'd be curious on your reasoning.

The MI mindset is real. Many moons ago when I was under this spell, I was invited to go hunting in Kentucky while in college down there. I did what any good ol' Michigander would do and blasted the first forkhorn I saw within gun range. 

I was berated by my host, almost shamed, and the following weekend the host brought me to his trunk and back seat which were brimming with 130-160" antlers and told that this is what we shoot in Kentucky.

It's no different in many other states which is why so many of us travel out of state to have better opportunities at shooting real monster bucks. Sure, hunter/deer ratios are different, but tell me why out of staters aren't flooding to Michigan to hunt big bucks. Tell me why Michigan has a disproportionately small percentage of deer on the B&C and P&Y entries.

It isn't because we don't have the quality of deer, its because we don't give deer the amount of time needed to produce B&C or P&Y antlers.


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## ryan-b (Sep 18, 2009)

I haven't purchased any new hunting stuff in many years. So I can say all the deer I have taken have cost my family a lot less then any beef or pork.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

cscott711 said:


> I'm not worried about your little buck or wanting to put venison in your freezer. If you're venison hunting and had a 1.5 year old buck and a doe of the same size side by side and chose to shoot the buck, then I'd be curious on your reasoning.
> 
> The MI mindset is real. Many moons ago when I was under this spell, I was invited to go hunting in Kentucky while in college down there. I did what any good ol' Michigander would do and blasted the first forkhorn I saw within gun range.
> 
> ...


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

FREEPOP said:


>


I can't play the video at work, but looks like Travis Tritt. Don't care what message you're trying to convey, but I never can turn off the radio if one of his songs are on. Don't make um like they used to!


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Duh, gotta be "Here's a quarter" haha


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

And 93 comments in 14 hours suggests many people care about the topic. Hope you've got a couple rolls to hand out


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I don't really hunt deer, I sit in a tree and shoot them when they walk under me. I hunt the same property most of the time, and often the same stand year after year. I shoot the first buck with 4 on a side and then wait for a 1.5 yr old with three on a side. I save my antlerless tag for rifle season or muzzle loader. In my mind I use to, "Hunt", when I went to the big woods. Trophy means different things to different people but the farther we get from our roots as a hunter gather the more important it becomes to most. To me a trophy is something my kids got, now becoming what the grandson got. Growing up in Detroit I had a completely different view than I do living on. and living off the land. Living in this area, liking to hunt and fish, leaves one living a subsistence lifestyle with out trying.


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## Pez Gallo (Sep 20, 2008)

JVoutdoors said:


> Lumberman. See how the APR team respects others who they think are against their cause? The original poster started a good discussion and your team is rushing in reinforcements to belittle and silence. ISIS has nothing on you all.



ISIS huh??? Well I suppose to make a fair comparison planned parenthood has nothing on you.

To answer the original question passing on sparkies isn't trophy hunting, APR's are not trophy hunting. The vast majority of hunters I know aren't trophy hunters, that includes QDMAMAN, Bioactive, BucksandBows and most of the others on this site that get labeled trophy hunters. Would I say I'm a trophy hunter? Yep, by definition I guess I am although I've never entered a book buck, but I do try and look to shoot 4-5 year old deer although I shot a 3 year old this year.

During a time when we hunted for meat we damn near wiped deer off the map. If it wasn't for regulatory changes we probably would have. We no longer have to hunt for food, but choose to continue hunting to enjoy the experience and the quality of the hunt. We've gained a lot more information in the last 20 years and just like anything else times change especially when there are better ways, but also just like anything else people abhor change and will fight it at every turn.

I would however agree that hunting shows are a detriment to everyday hunting, not because it's entertaining, but because people are in general idiots and believe everything they see and hear on TV. That goes for society in general and not just hunters.;-)

Have a good day, Pez


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## smoob2010 (Jan 19, 2011)

andyotto said:


> Yea I agree the stages thing is kinda silly. It seems like a means of pushing an agenda. If a person doesn't believe in the same things you do they must not be as "evolved". Each stage can be viewed as just somebody's different opinion.


I also agree I'm in all the stages. 
1 killing, I love to send arrows and slugs at deer. I shoot a few doe each year.
2 limiting out stage, does anyone want to not fill all their tags?
3 trophy stage, I only shoot big bucks on my grandpa's property because I can get rid of the itchy finger in stage one.
4 different equipment, I love bow hunting and moving around sitting on the ground in late season with the muzzleloader.
5. Enjoying the outdoors with family and friends, I hate hunting alone. There is no one to share the experience with or reflect with later down the road.

I'd say I'm all stages, I love to kill deer, I can shoot more deer than I can eat becuase I've yet to have a problem with donating some meat to friends and family. I love going after the biggest deer in the woods. Bow and muzzleloader seasons are my favorite and if your not enjoying hunting with someone its not the same to me. Stage two truly makes me laugh. Who doesn't want to limit out or fill all there tags? 

Fun topic.


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## NorthWoodsHunter (Feb 21, 2011)

When we no longer NEEDED to hunt for our food and it became a sport. While I believe there are some that truly hunt for food out of necessity, the majority of "meat hunters" would be better off dollar per pound buying alternate foods at the supermarket.

Tags, gas, ammo, weapon, bait, camo, gizmos....the list goes on and adds to the "free meat" concept.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

soggybtmboys said:


> http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/H/HUNTING/
> 
> "Trophy' hunting has been around since the dawn of man. I do not know anyone whom hunts, specifically and singularily for wall mounts and does not enjoy venison. The connotation is largely a misnomer, and a negative one, generally coming from other hunters whom wish to not raise a standard in the sport hunting community.
> 
> ...


So why distinguish ranch raised deer from others?
Should private vs state apply as well?
Hunter years of experience and hunting areas location factors?
Do number of available trophies to kill make any difference in a hunters superiority over anothers with fewer potential trophies to select from?
Why or why not ? They are trophies after all.
How does lobbying for more trophies availability retain or increase the value of previous standards?
More would only lesson their value. 
Same as printing money for the sake of more.


[There is a difference in achievement that comes with killing a unique or an animal of notable age, size, combination of them all. It is defined and sets them apart from the rest of the species which they represent or are considered common or 'standard'. Sometimes it can be dumb luck, but it is generally accepted the killing of a 'trophy' animal has a higher than average skill or achievement attached to it.]


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## buck11pt24 (Mar 11, 2007)

I started when I realized it was too easy to kill the young bucks. Hunting became boring. If I hunted to simply fill tags, I would be done for the entire season by Oct 3rd with 2 bucks and as many does as I can fit tags in my wallet.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Waif said:


> So why distinguish ranch raised deer from others?
> Should private vs state apply as well?
> Hunter years of experience and hunting areas location factors?
> Do number of available trophies to kill make difference in a hunters superiority over anothers with fewer potential trophies to select from?
> ...


So you are in favor of including pen raised animals with free range fair chaise in B&C, P&Y, CBM?
Does the private property have a fence around it, what distinguishes it from surrounding terrain that is notably different than state?

How many trophies are available versus how many hunters are in any given area?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

NorthWoodsHunter said:


> Tags, gas, ammo, weapon, bait, camo, gizmos....the list goes on and adds to the "free meat" concept.


I purchase tags and that's it. Bought some broadheads two years ago and still have two unused and the rest are sharpened back up, ready to use again and broke an arrow this year, first time for that in many years.. Still have 8 of the 10 slugs I bought 10 years ago. I walk out the back door to hunt most times. I have a couple places I can drive too. 
Not much invested in my venison.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

FREEPOP said:


> I purchase tags and that's it. Bought some broadheads two years ago and still have two unused and the rest are sharpened back up, ready to use again and broke an arrow this year, first time for that in many years.. Still have 8 of the 10 slugs I bought 10 years ago. I walk out the back door to hunt most times. I have a couple places I can drive too.
> Not much invested in my venison.


The hundreds, maybe thousands, of hunting related manufacturers would prove you are the exception and not the rule.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> I think the better question would be:
> 
> "When did some hunters start being overly concerned with what their neighbors and fellow sportsman bag?"


When they compared their neighbors kills to what they may have killed if the neighbors hadn,t killed them.... and did not want to pursue their personal goals by themselves through effort and tenacity to pursue their goals,logical or not, but rather legislate a more "even" playing field. Despite the field being lopsided in favor of those who simply hunted , rather than obsessing about the impact of others kills,those kills others were satisfied with were considered counter productive to those not happy with hunting.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

cscott711 said:


> The hundreds, maybe thousands, of hunting related manufacturers would prove you are the exception and not the rule.


What did PT Barnum say?


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

FREEPOP said:


> What did PT Barnum say?


After a quick Google search I now know. Hardly the point, although you already know that.


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## Last-n-Draw (Mar 2, 2010)

cscott711 said:


> When the former passed that 1.5 year old ten times in bow season and saw it hanging on the latter's buck pole at noon on 11/15.
> 
> I used to be that guy for sure. It frustrated the heck out of me. I'd be lying if there still isn't a moment of " what if" that goes through my head every time I see a young buck taken. When I scroll through pictures of bucks that've been shot, even my kids are more enthused by big antlers over little ones. Guess it's just part of our DNA, at least in my household.
> 
> ...


I'm shooting both. That's the beauty of combo tags.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Last-n-Draw said:


> I'm shooting both. That's the beauty of combo tags.


That wasn't an option. However, a 1.5 year old buck just might hang around long enough. They're not the most challenging of quarry to hunt.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

soggybtmboys said:


> So you are in favor of including pen raised animals with free range fair chaise in B&C, P&Y, CBM?
> Does the private property have a fence around it, what distinguishes it from surrounding terrain that is notably different than state?
> 
> How many trophies are available versus how many hunters are in any given area?


Lots of trophies available.
Hunter densities minimal.
Fence don't matter to antler size,they need age first.
It's about biggest antlers being best trophies and the majorities demands for more,more ,more.
So lets have more.
So what where they are raised or killed. That has nothing to do with the demand or their value as indicated by the records not taking the variety of difficulty in the details.
A fence enclosing 5000 acres vs no fence private vs public land....a trophy is a trophy if biggest antlers are the defining criteria you listed and accept.


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## Pez Gallo (Sep 20, 2008)

Last-n-Draw said:


> I'm shooting both. That's the beauty of combo tags.


Beauty or the Beast I suppose.:-(

Have a good day, Pez


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Waif said:


> Lots of trophies available.
> Hunter densities minimal.
> Fence don't matter to antler size,they need age first.
> It's about biggest antlers being best trophies and the majorities demands for more,more ,more.
> ...


How many trophies are available to best data for a given area...say most of Michigan? 
What are of the State has minimal density and to what degree are trophies available?
What is the definition of fair chase? Are you insinuating that private property is not fair chase?
How does B&C, P&Y, and CBM define trophies and parameters for entry into those book? Those are the record keepers I mentioned....I made mention of a few metrics.

Keep grasping....pull enough and you can have your scarecrow


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

soggybtmboys said:


> How many trophies are available to best data for a given area...say most of Michigan?
> What are of the State has minimal density and to what degree are trophies available?
> What is the definition of fair chase? Are you insinuating that private property is not fair chase?
> How does B&C, P&Y, and CBM define trophies and parameters for entry into those book? Those are the record keepers I mentioned....I made mention of a few metrics.
> ...


Are your oldest deer sightings available to the rest of the states hunters?
Yes or no.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

cscott711 said:


> When I scroll through pictures of bucks that've been shot, even my kids are more enthused by big antlers over little ones. Guess it's just part of our DNA, at least in my household.


Entirely natural to be intrigued/interested in big bucks. Even non-hunters add extra enthusiasm to their deer sighting accounts when they report seeing a big one. I offer no apologies for being more excited about big antlers as compared to small ones.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

jr28schalm said:


> My dad raised me to be the best i can be at what ever i decide to do. Shooting bucks with milk dripping off there lips is not the best I can do


Well then, what is the best you can do? Do you got a resume or a wish list?


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Corey K said:


> So shooting big bucks make you a better person in general? Being a good person, parent, or friend is far more important, try being the best at that for awhile....


Nice, a BC two hander.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Waif said:


> Are your oldest deer sightings available to the rest of the states hunters?
> Yes or no.


If they are not, no I do not consider them fair chase due to accessibility. How would it be when access is restricted and conditions outside it are less favorable both in available numbers of deer, hunter density combined with landowner rules affecting conditions,deer numbers ,and allowed harvest numbers?
Me thinks you are fairly new to the concept of managing for trophies on a statewide scale involving equality for all hunters..
No different than raised on any other private land,fenced or not.
Michigan's trophy accessibility has been a contention of my argument against broad spectrum regulation the whole time.
Book bucks mean something to organisations and those that killed them more than me, having never had one scored.
But if book bucks are the goal then all others must be off the table to raise odds the highest where habitat can sustain their impact.
That's at least a few generations of recruitment and will answer your questions regarding where greatest potential exists statewide.
Still, potential numbers of deer at trophybook status vs hunters, even if equally accessible will not produce enough.
Especially if greater numbers of trophies results in an influx of hunters from other state.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Waif said:


> Especially if greater numbers of trophies results in an influx of hunters from other state.


Even if the trophy buck population were to be ten times what it is today, it would still be highly improbable there will ever be a circumstance in MI that would create an influx of out of state hunters. That's because on a per hunter basis every state within hundreds of miles of MI already offers a much higher trophy probability on a per hunter basis than exists in MI. 

Using P&Y deer as an example, the odds of a given individual tagging one in MI are small in comparison to Ohio, IN, IL, WI, etc.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

November Sunrise said:


> Even if the trophy buck population were to be ten times what it is today, it would still be highly improbable there will ever be a circumstance in MI that would create an influx of out of state hunters. That's because on a per hunter basis every state within hundreds of miles of MI already offers a much higher trophy probability on a per hunter basis than exists in MI.
> 
> Using P&Y deer as an example, the odds of a given individual tagging one in MI are small in comparison to Ohio, IN, IL, WI, etc.


You know... you could have told me this forty years and a gazillion Mi. footsteps in the woods ago...:banghead3


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## hypox (Jan 23, 2000)

FREEPOP said:


> I purchase tags and that's it. Bought some broadheads two years ago and still have two unused and the rest are sharpened back up, ready to use again and broke an arrow this year, first time for that in many years.. Still have 8 of the 10 slugs I bought 10 years ago. I walk out the back door to hunt most times. I have a couple places I can drive too.
> Not much invested in my venison.


So with tags, and walking out the back door what are you thinking per pound?

Did you purchase your weapons and camo? If so, you can add those dollar totals up and divide the cost over the expected years of use.

Wear and tear/consumables - Broken arrows/broadheads, ammo for sighting in, wore out socks/boots, faded camo maybe?

Tree stands, blinds? Cameras, batteries?

Freezer wrap or vacuum seal bag?

Just asking, not picking on you. Maybe you are that 1 in a hundred thousand hunters that shoots 2 deer with (2)-.99 cent Remington sluggers from Gandpa's old 1100. Throw Grandpa's blase orange onesie on and wear your work boots, I don't know.

I just think the majority of people that claim their venison is cheap aren't really thinking big picture. Again, not picking on you specifically, just wondering what you think your price per pound is on venison.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

hypox said:


> So with tags, and walking out the back door what are you thinking per pound?
> 
> Did you purchase your weapons and camo? If so, you can add those dollar totals up and divide the cost over the expected years of use.
> 
> ...


 There are certain fixed costs but the more you shoot the cheaper by the pound. Some people have a very low cost to benefit ratio. I still have a set of tree bark bibs.


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

Deer tags $72.00
Gear, land, time off work, etc. Too much to add up.
Time in the woods and backstrap on the grill (priceless)


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

hypox said:


> $1.99/pound for burger.
> 
> 
> http://www.parkstmarket.com/ParkStreetNov20VersionA.pdf


 Probably 50% fat and the rest is bull scrotum tissue, "All Beef".


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## bradb460 (Nov 15, 2012)

plugger said:


> Probably 50% fat and the rest is bull scrotum tissue, "All Beef".


Kinda like an "all beef" hot dog. It doesn't resemble beef.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Jamorris said:


> Man's "nature" has not changed. If he is a trophy hunter now, he was a trophy hunter in "yesteryear".


I agree and I also think that trophy hunters have a personal, vested interest in their own success and to wish the same for others? Not logical or likely.


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## hypox (Jan 23, 2000)

bradb460 said:


> Have you had some of their meat? Definitely alot cheaper than meijer. Unfortunately I'm in holland so I'm not sure it would be worth the drive.


My step son's wife shops their and I've eaten at there house a lot. Taste's fine to me, but she's Filipino and cooks Filipino food and it always tastes good.

Last time my wife bought burger at Meijer was about a month ago. It was $1.79/pound for the family pack (3-4 pounds).


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## hypox (Jan 23, 2000)

cast and tug said:


> Deer tags $72.00
> Gear, land, time off work, etc. Too much to add up.
> Time in the woods and backstrap on the grill (priceless)


I can't disagree with that. The time in the woods is the X-factor.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

hypox said:


> I just checked the local flyer....bulk burger is $1.79/pound and Roasts are $1.89/pound.
> 
> 40 pounds of beef is probably $75.
> 
> I guess if the price of gear is irrelevant, then venison must be free.....never mind.


We're talking 3-5 deer a year for two people. The last camo I bought was at K-Mart or Meijers in the early eighties.


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## dc3shcmanke (Aug 21, 2015)

FREEPOP said:


> We're talking 3-5 deer a year for two people. The last camo I bought was at K-Mart or Meijers in the early eighties.


Camo was invented back then??


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## trophy18 (Aug 14, 2011)

I used to be a limit out guy. Now I see myself wanting to get a trophy. It's not to impress anyone just self satisfaction I think. Myself I would really like to shoot a heavy horned deer ( on my own, no paid hunt with a stand all set up) and catch a ten pound walleye in the bay. I don't think I would feel satisfied not doing around home or having to work for it.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

plugger said:


> Probably 50% fat and the rest is bull scrotum tissue, "All Beef".


Hahaha, that's hilarious


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Very few farmers that milk will eat cottage cheese and very few meat cutters eat hotdogs.


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## hypox (Jan 23, 2000)

I toured a chicken processing plant once. I don't think I ate chicken for over a year after that. Just recalling it gives me a little nausea and that was over 10 years ago.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Carried chickens out of a huuuuuge rearing barn during the summer. 7 in each hand, into baskets and loaded on a semi.
Saw lots of nasty stuff.


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## PRU2 (Mar 4, 2007)

hitechman said:


> Well, I'm at stage 5.....................but I skipped stage 3 and 4 (seriously).
> 
> 1) SHOOTER STAGE
> The hunter talks about satisfaction with hunting being closely tied to being able to “get shooting.”
> ...


I had a wonderful dad, who I was able to hunt with for 20 years. I started going in the woods and fields with him and his hunting partners when I was 9 years old in 1959... I started at #5 because of dad and his friends, each trip to hunting camp and each trip in the woods or fields was a learning experience. Ended up going in the woods and fields with a camera the last 2-3 years, and don't hunt any longer... These sportsmen taught me so much... Now my time is spent fishing. I only hope I was and am still able to pass #5 along to my kids and now grandkids...


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

PRU2 said:


> I had a wonderful dad, who I was able to hunt with for 20 years. I started going in the woods and fields with him and his hunting partners when I was 9 years old in 1959... I started at #5 because of dad and his friends, each trip to hunting camp and each trip in the woods or fields was a learning experience. Ended up going in the woods and fields with a camera the last 2-3 years, and don't hunt any longer... These sportsmen taught me so much... Now my time is spent fishing. I only hope I was and am still able to pass #5 along to my kids and now grandkids...


I hope so too. The knowledge gained form a respected mentor is much more digestible than most of the messages bombarded at our youth from television and computer screens.


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## GADWALL21 (Feb 23, 2008)

I became a trophy hunter my freshman year of college, man I miss those sorority racks :SHOCKED:


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Man has always prized rarity.
As long as large antlers are considered rare, they'll be prized.
I would take a couple historical exceptions.

The deer population before 1900 was not high.
Lumber camps (excluding perhaps privateer efforts) did not base their 6K kcal/day diet on harvested venison.
My wife's family owned lumber camps. 
The *MENU* was a recruiting tool. The food guarantee was what kept people cutting trees all winter. You couldn't feed 300 guys working outdoors all winter, daylight to dark, an undependable food source like venison. It's a myth.

My Great Grandfather hunted whitetails for subsistence in the 1890's in the UP. In his journals, he stated that if anyone (read that as any kid, woman, or man) saw a whitetail track in the snow, they were to go home, gear up, and follow those tracks until they killed that animal. People used to starve to death, and a large animal like a whitetail, represented tremendous relief from constant hardship. They hit the yards enmass to get as much food as possible at one time, as the food quality and availability in the UP until about May was very poor. And an April UP doe isn't carrying much weight.


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## Savvy Sportsman (Nov 29, 2015)

It was roughly about the same time one man found that he could pee farther than another. :lol:


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

FREEPOP said:


> We're talking 3-5 deer a year for two people. The last camo I bought was at K-Mart or Meijers in the early eighties.


Lucky you get all that free herbicide and free seed for those food plots or you would have to figure them in to your costs.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

bradb460 said:


> Please let me know where you found these beef prices.


Here is a recent price list from Mccauliffe's meats near me in 
addison MI. Prices are a whole lot cheaper if you order a side of beef or pork.

prices good november 3rd-7th

whole boneless rib eyes starting at 5.39lb
whole USDA choice new york strips starting at 4.39lb
approx 10lb bags of ground beef 2.85lb
73% lean hamburger in 10lb tube 1.95lb
family pack sirloin tip or chuck steak 4.09lb
USDA choice bottom round roast 2 back sold whole only 3.09lb
whole boneless pork loins 1.89lb
family pack pork steak or western ribs 1.39lb
assorted pork chops includes ends and centers 1.59lb
family pack smoked bacon 3.15lb
approx 10lb bags boneless chicken breast 1.25lb
10lb bag of chicken leg quarters 3.49 each
1lb butter 2.75 each


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

mbrewer said:


> I agree and I also think that trophy hunters have a personal, vested interest in their own success and to wish the same for others? Not logical or likely.


I think trophy hunters are so rare in Michigan they do not figure into any management equation you can come up with. I would be very surprised if 0.5% of hunters in MI identified themselves as 'trophy" hunters. I know there are a few on this site but of course this site attracts all types of serious hunters.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I haven't yet developed a clear opinion on what I've come to call, "Conflicted Deer killers".
They are clear about everything up through the kill. But, then, are conflicted about all that follows.

As a sausage maker, about March it always seems to me that we have plenty of deer shooters, but few people that actually like to eat it. As venison. They seem bent on going to elaborate lengths to make it something it isn't. I often wonder how many actually just sneak it all into the trash after the fall thrill wears off. I've had guys bring over 3 yr old pkg's. "Gotta make room"... And of course, "It was freezer burnt"... gives cover for disposal too.
Nothing personal, but I don't want to come to your Christmas gathering and have you pawn off 3 year old venison sausage on me. I know you're cleaning out the freezer because no one at your home wants to eat it. And it's not like I haven't eaten sausage prepared by about every butcher that runs an ad. (most of which is pretty good BTW) 
But I digress,
So, if "The Kill", is a form of trophy, we have thousands of trophy hunters., all satisfied with their efforts. If it is restricted to just antler fixation, then there are far fewer. If we further restrict it to "Shoot it", never touch it, and then have someone else deliver me a mount in 6 mos, even fewer still. 

It's all about how thin you can slice the tomato. Or whatever framework you can concoct.

I think they were bigger trophy's when no one starved or died because you missed, and I think that's part of the imagery seen in the petroglyphs. It seems to come right through when I look at them.


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## Oger (Aug 28, 2008)

Its happens just like when it happened that you were not going to go home with the fat ones anymore.....at first you think it will never work and then...OMG....bow chicka bow wow......look at me


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Gamekeeper said:


> I haven't yet developed a clear opinion on what I've come to call, "Conflicted Deer killers".
> They are clear about everything up through the kill. But, then, are conflicted about all that follows.
> 
> As a sausage maker, about March it always seems to me that we have plenty of deer shooters, but few people that actually like to eat it. As venison. They seem bent on going to elaborate lengths to make it something it isn't. I often wonder how many actually just sneak it all into the trash after the fall thrill wears off. I've had guys bring over 3 yr old pkg's. "Gotta make room"... And of course, "It was freezer burnt"... gives cover for disposal too.
> ...


 My wife runs agility dogs and many people are feeding a raw diet, we don't, and there are always people giving them coolers full of venison, especially just before the start of a new season. A couple people we know have sled dogs and if weren't for gifted venison the cost of feed would bankrupt them. I offered to help a gal salvage a car hit deer last summer for sled dog feed and she showed me three freezers full of commercially processed venison. She did not need to salvage road kill. When I see how a majority of deer are handled I don't doubt that most of the meat is not fit for human consumption.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Gamekeeper said:


> I haven't yet developed a clear opinion on what I've come to call, "Conflicted Deer killers".
> They are clear about everything up through the kill. But, then, are conflicted about all that follows.
> 
> As a sausage maker, about March it always seems to me that we have plenty of deer shooters, but few people that actually like to eat it. As venison. They seem bent on going to elaborate lengths to make it something it isn't. I often wonder how many actually just sneak it all into the trash after the fall thrill wears off. I've had guys bring over 3 yr old pkg's. "Gotta make room"... And of course, "It was freezer burnt"... gives cover for disposal too.
> ...


Some of the samples shown of petroglyphs are of Irish elk(?).
Sure to impress even non hunters watching them sail.


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## bradb460 (Nov 15, 2012)

bioactive said:


> Here is a recent price list from Mccauliffe's meats near me in
> addison MI. Prices are a whole lot cheaper if you order a side of beef or pork.
> 
> prices good november 3rd-7th
> ...


Those prices are pretty good, I'll have to shop around a little. We had 2 deer in the freezer from last fall so we really didn't buy any beef in the last year. It's pretty much gone and I'm having a poor year as far as buck sightings so I may go without this year. I might take a doe with my bow yet this year if I get an opportunity.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

bioactive said:


> Lucky you get all that free herbicide and free seed for those food plots or you would have to figure them in to your costs.


If I hinted about how generous some farmers can be after getting rid of some ****, woodchucks or other vermin, you'd call me a liar, again.
Their is more than one payday when you're a Trapper.


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## rmw (Feb 21, 2006)

Rounder said:


> When did man become a trophy hunter? Some here have complained about slob hunters shooting any buck they can eat. Is this part of society moving from country to city? Did it become prominent with our industrial age? Logging camps used to live on deer, I doubt they were all big bucks.
> 
> Obviously it feeds our ego. Life became easy for man. Needed something.
> 
> Any talk of big racks in historical books?


The first time a cave man could say 
"Look mine is bigger than yours"


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Gamekeeper said:


> I haven't yet developed a clear opinion on what I've come to call, "Conflicted Deer killers".
> They are clear about everything up through the kill. But, then, are conflicted about all that follows.
> 
> As a sausage maker, about March it always seems to me that we have plenty of deer shooters, but few people that actually like to eat it. As venison. They seem bent on going to elaborate lengths to make it something it isn't. I often wonder how many actually just sneak it all into the trash after the fall thrill wears off. I've had guys bring over 3 yr old pkg's. "Gotta make room"... And of course, "It was freezer burnt"... gives cover for disposal too.
> ...


What a practical, reasoned response that is. Communicated very well.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

plugger said:


> My wife runs agility dogs and many people are feeding a raw diet, we don't, and there are always people giving them coolers full of venison, especially just before the start of a new season. A couple people we know have sled dogs and if weren't for gifted venison the cost of feed would bankrupt them. I offered to help a gal salvage a car hit deer last summer for sled dog feed and she showed me three freezers full of commercially processed venison. She did not need to salvage road kill. When I see how a majority of deer are handled I don't doubt that most of the meat is not fit for human consumption.


I think you and gamekeeper have both touched on an unfortunate reality.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I hate to be too weird, but sometimes I think guys spend all that money at the butcher, and then give it all away at work and wherever, as a form of penance, knowing full well it was very unlikely they would eat any of it in the first place. And they killed something, so now they are conflicted.

When your family is as big, and as friendly as mine is, you get kinda sick of seeing plates of sliced up venison sausage.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Gamekeeper said:


> I hate to be too weird, but sometimes I think guys spend all that money at the butcher, and then give it all away at work and wherever, as a form of penance, knowing full well it was very unlikely they would eat any of it in the first place. And they killed something, so now they are conflicted.
> 
> When your family is as big, and as friendly as mine is, you get kinda sick of seeing plates of sliced up venison sausage.


I shoot deer and am fully aware ahead of time that almost all of it will be donated or given away. No guilt about it at all. I think we all come out as winners


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## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

Gamekeeper said:


> I hate to be too weird, but sometimes I think guys spend all that money at the butcher, and then give it all away at work and wherever, as a form of penance, knowing full well it was very unlikely they would eat any of it in the first place. And they killed something, so now they are conflicted.
> 
> When your family is as big, and as friendly as mine is, you get kinda sick of seeing plates of sliced up venison sausage.


You have touched on an aspect in your great posts I had not thought of in these trophy, APR, brown its down debates. When a boy, I had an uncle who would shoot 1-2 nice bucks every year and scoff at anything after a crude job of field dressing them. He would bring them to us, family with 5 kids, who always processed our own deer and when we got done it looked like ravens had picked over the ribs. If it had a nice rack he wanted the antlers back. If we were lucky, we would hope to have 4-5 deer to eat for the year. Nothing went to waste, no expensive brats or sausage made. Mom got the local grocer to grind the burger portion for us for a few packages when he was done. When dad over cooked the steaks over charcoal we thought we were have filet mignon at a fancy restaurant. LOL Where did my uncle fall in this debate? Why didn't he just go sit in the blind with a camera? Why would you kill a deer if you wouldn't want to eat it? I remember thinking these things about him and not respecting him as a child. People are a product of their environment and doubt I will every get enlightened enough to believe differently.
I can afford now to send the deer to the processor, but when I do occasionally I always feel like a loser. Still wear the same camo from the early 90's also. Hunt with the 1955 Rem 760 300 Savage I bought when returning from overseas in the 90's. Same crappy off brand 4X it had then. I could afford new everything, but this stuff has a history with me and it still works when I can get to the woods. Just something about my stupid traditions I guess...
And PS: Mom says her brother always hated venison as a kid and hunted because all his brothers did. Tradition for him I guess, just different than mine...


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

So someone who shoots deer and donates the meat should be looked down upon? That's all I'm drawing from your post.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

JVoutdoors said:


> You have touched on an aspect in your great posts I had not thought of in these trophy, APR, brown its down debates. When a boy, I had an uncle who would shoot 1-2 nice bucks every year and scoff at anything after a crude job of field dressing them. He would bring them to us, family with 5 kids, who always processed our own deer and when we got done it looked like ravens had picked over the ribs. If it had a nice rack he wanted the antlers back. If we were lucky, we would hope to have 4-5 deer to eat for the year. Nothing went to waste, no expensive brats or sausage made. Mom got the local grocer to grind the burger portion for us for a few packages when he was done. When dad over cooked the steaks over charcoal we thought we were have filet mignon at a fancy restaurant. LOL Where did my uncle fall in this debate? Why didn't he just go sit in the blind with a camera? Why would you kill a deer if you wouldn't want to eat it? I remember thinking these things about him and not respecting him as a child. People are a product of their environment and doubt I will every get enlightened enough to believe differently.
> I can afford now to send the deer to the processor, but when I do occasionally I always feel like a loser. Still wear the same camo from the early 90's also. Hunt with the 1955 Rem 760 300 Savage I bought when returning from overseas in the 90's. Same crappy off brand 4X it had then. I could afford new everything, but this stuff has a history with me and it still works when I can get to the woods. Just something about my stupid traditions I guess...
> And PS: Mom says her brother always hated venison as a kid and hunted because all his brothers did. Tradition for him I guess, just different than mine...


Nice. The older I get the more I appreciate tradition and traditional values.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

cscott711 said:


> So someone who shoots deer and donates the meat should be looked down upon? That's all I'm drawing from your post.


I don't look down on it. Many times it probably equates to a best case scenario. But I will say I'm glad I don't have to face that dilemma. I appreciate and value the venison I take and am proud to serve it to my family.


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## Last-n-Draw (Mar 2, 2010)

So


cscott711 said:


> I shoot deer and am fully aware ahead of time that almost all of it will be donated or given away. No guilt about it at all. I think we all come out as winners


Sounds like you need to take up photography. You could always get some replica horns made. Win, win situation there. Deer walks and you still have your bragging piece.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Last-n-Draw said:


> So
> 
> Sounds like you need to take up photography. You could always get some replica horns made. Win, win situation there. Deer walks and you still have your bragging piece.


My wife doesn't eat venison so I'm not able to eat it often. I should give up hunting because of that? Okay? 

My uncle and friends gladly accept it and so do programs such as Sportsman Against Hunger. 

Your comment makes little sense.


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

cscott711 said:


> So someone who shoots deer and donates the meat should be looked down upon? That's all I'm drawing from your post.


If I didn't like to eat venison, I would never deer hunt. Period.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> If I didn't like to eat venison, I would never deer hunt. Period.


When did I say I don't like venison?


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

cscott711 said:


> So someone who shoots deer and donates the meat should be looked down upon? That's all I'm drawing from your post.


Looked down upon? No. 

But it certainly adds some perspective as to why some hunters place so much emphasis on the size of antlers and also why some show little concern about diminishing the opportunity for others to put some meat in the freezer. If bagging a deer for consumption is not important or a priority for them, they probably won't understand why it may be for others.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> If I didn't like to eat venison, I would never deer hunt. Period.


Your kidding right??...So there is absolutely no enjoyment in hunting deer for you?...None?...This is exactly what your statement is implying...The taste and to fill my freezer with venison is a far second to why I actually hunt...


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

cscott711 said:


> When did I say I don't like venison?


I was not talking about you, I was talking about me.

Obviously you missed the part where his uncle did not like to eat venison, but WANTED the antlers back. Sheesh!!!!!


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Munsterlndr said:


> Looked down upon? No.
> 
> But it certainly adds some perspective as to why some hunters place so much emphasis on the size of antlers and also why some show little concern about diminishing the opportunity for others to put some meat in the freezer. If bagging a deer for consumption is not important or a priority for them, they probably won't understand why it may be for others.


Or it could just put your ignorance on display.


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## rmw (Feb 21, 2006)

Well I like venison and big antlers 
And I also just enjoy hunting which would end my season very soon if I was not selective 
I could easily be done by the 2nd week in Oct most years but that would take all the fun out of it


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> I was not talking about you, I was talking about me.
> 
> Obviously you missed the part where his uncle did not like to eat venison, but WANTED the antlers back. Sheesh!!!!!


You quoted my post so why wouldn't I think that was an inference to me? I hunt for many more reasons than to kill a deer and measure success beyond the tally mark I can rack up. I killed a doe last week which was the first whitetail I've taken in five years. I've had opportunities to shoot dozens and dozens of deer over those past five years and passed the opportunity for various reasons. 

If I shot a buck and donated it I would also ask for the antlers back. Who cares? Make mountains out of molehills much?


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Munsterlndr said:


> Looked down upon? No.
> 
> But it certainly adds some perspective as to why some hunters place so much emphasis on the size of antlers and also why some show little concern about diminishing the opportunity for others to put some meat in the freezer. If bagging a deer for consumption is not important or a priority for them, they probably won't understand why it may be for others.


Sometimes I get the shakes after shooting does...That is a large reason why I hunt...I've shot many deer...If I ever loose them shakes, I'll quit hunting....Not because of the taste of venison...Last time I checked, does didn't have antlers..


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Munsterlndr said:


> Looked down upon? No.
> 
> But it certainly adds some perspective as to why some hunters place so much emphasis on the size of antlers and also why some show little concern about diminishing the opportunity for others to put some meat in the freezer. If bagging a deer for consumption is not important or a priority for them, they probably won't understand why it may be for others.


Diminishing opportunity? Anyone in the state can shoot two antlerless deer in archery season for their freezer.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Munsterlndr said:


> Looked down upon? No.
> 
> But it certainly adds some perspective as to why some hunters place so much emphasis on the size of antlers and also why some show little concern about diminishing the opportunity for others to put some meat in the freezer. If bagging a deer for consumption is not important or a priority for them, they probably won't understand why it may be for others.


A well reasoned response. Perspective is everything and I think you're captured one for those of us who may not have considered it before.

Having said that, it will go unnoticed by many simply because you said it.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> If I didn't like to eat venison, I would never deer hunt. Period.


Well aren't you the special one. My what a supreme set of values you have.
I coyote hunt, duck hunt, prarie dog hunt and don't eat any of that meat. Should all of us who partake in those type of hunts stop hunting because we don't eat the meat. Your not an anti are ya?
You guys are kidding yourselves wirh this tradition crap. Back in the 50s-70s deer hunting for the most part consisted of a one week trip to the north woods. Back then hunting was not about getting meat for the freezer. You got one buck tag maybe a doe tag if you dared shoot a doe. Back then it was pretty much a gotta get yer buck(trophy) event with a whole lot of camaraderie mixed in. A camp of 4-5 guys were happy to get 2-3 bucks and split up the meat if they were lucky it tallied up to about 30 pounds a piece.
It wasn't until we got a huge herd that people got into this killing spree and the idea of filling up a freezer, only to throw it out to make room or give it away.


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

sniper said:


> Sometimes I get the shakes after shooting does...That is a large reason why I hunt...I've shot many deer...If I ever loose them shakes, I'll quit hunting....Not because of the taste of venison...Last time I checked, does didn't have antlers..


Those shakes are what get us up at 4 a.m when it's 5 degrees, I feel the same way you do as well if they didn't happen I would quit hunting. I eat the majority of what I shoot but it sure isn't just for the meat, ask any turkey hunters if it's for the meat, due to the hours invented and money that us some extremely expensive turkey!


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

It almost seems like a "domestic content law for automobiles" type of discussion.
"What percentage of an animal must be salvaged before disposal for it not to be wanton waste?"
Gifting is legal if the kill is legal, that's really all there is to it

So, as I said earlier, I don't really have any real opinion of pure trophy hunting, as I always err toward whatever is legal, and leave the ethics discussions to people with more anxiety than I have.

Now on the matter of deer sausage, I have an opinion!


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

Obviously to some, deer hunting is more about the antlers, than the meat.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Diminishing opportunity? Anyone in the state can shoot two antlerless deer in archery season for their freezer.


That is certainly true. It's also true that not everyone hunts during archery season. Some don't have the time to do so on a regular basis. Others can't afford the equipment or have decided that the population in the area in which they hunt can't support additional antlerless harvest. In those situations, reducing the number of legal male targets can have a corresponding impact on diminishing their opportunity to put some meat in the freezer.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> Obviously to some, deer hunting is more about the antlers, than the meat.


Yup, that's why so many want a spike or a fork more than a doe in the bow season. They love those antlers!


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

sniper said:


> Your kidding right??...*So there is absolutely no enjoyment in hunting deer for you?...None?..*.This is exactly what your statement is implying...The taste and to fill my freezer with venison is a far second to why I actually hunt...


Where did I say that I do not enjoy my deer hunting?:coco:


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

cscott711 said:


> Or it could just put your ignorance on display.


LoL. Apparently my post hit too close to home for someone. :lol:

Putting aside your somewhat combative response (which would usually draw a strike for some of us), my observation was not meant as a criticism, merely an observation about the motivations that some people have.

It could be equally applied the other direction, as well. I hunt primarily for meat, antlers, while nice to look at, play no role in my harvest decisions (except obviously when legality is involved). Because I place very little value on antlers as the sole criteria for harvest, I probably have a harder time understanding the motivations of those who do and am probably less sensitive to regulation changes which might prove detrimental to those who are primarily chasing large antlers. It works both ways.


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Yup, that's why so many want a spike or a fork more than a doe in the bow season. *They love those antlers!*


You may be right.

Hunters wanting to restrict others choices, for bigger and bigger antlers, could be argued as to why, also.

Gotta love those antlers.:lol:

And the freedom of choice.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Diminishing opportunity? Anyone in the state can shoot two antlerless deer in archery season for their freezer.


Let's not forget our neighbors.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/new-michigan-2015-deer-hunting-restrictions-just-announced/


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Munsterlndr said:


> LoL. Apparently my post hit too close to home for someone. :lol:
> 
> Putting aside your somewhat combative response (which would usually draw a strike for some of us), my observation was not meant as a criticism, merely an observation about the motivations that some people have.
> 
> It could be equally applied the other direction, as well. I hunt primarily for meat, antlers, while nice to look at, play no role in my harvest decisions (except obviously when legality is involved). Because I place very little value on antlers as the sole criteria for harvest, I probably have a harder time understanding the motivations of those who do and am probably less sensitive to regulation changes which might prove detrimental to those who are primarily chasing large antlers. It works both ways.


I get it. Of course it applies to all of us equally, regardless of topic. 

Emotional arguments are about as boring as they are narrow. By narrow I mean applicable to the individual expressing them. And boring, as in expecting them to be universally accepted.

My lucky socks have holes in them. How much longer do I have to suffer the indignity?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

mbrewer said:


> So are you saying it is or isn't OK to harvest based on antler value?
> 
> May as well be debatin
> 
> ...



If a sock has no hole....how do you get it on your foot?


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> Where did I say that I do not enjoy my deer hunting?:coco:


post 179...Read it again...


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Waif said:


> If a sock has no hole....how do you get it on your foot?


Holezz as in at least one toe many


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

mbrewer said:


> Holezz as in at least one toe many


Golf socks have eighteen holes.
Sunday socks are holey.


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## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

jr28schalm said:


> My dad raised me to be the best i can be at what ever i decide to do. Shooting bucks with milk dripping off there lips is not the best I can do


He must be so proud right now.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Munsterlndr said:


> That is certainly true. It's also true that not everyone hunts during archery season. Some don't have the time to do so on a regular basis. Others can't afford the equipment or have decided that the population in the area in which they hunt can't support additional antlerless harvest. In those situations, reducing the number of legal male targets can have a corresponding impact on diminishing their opportunity to put some meat in the freezer.


Your reasons for a hunter to not have equal chance at a deer or 2 in this state are laughable...This is deer hunting in Michigan not a safari in S Africa. Those things you mentioned above are very easily attainable for anyone in the year 2015 without much effort..It's a matter of the individual effort..


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

sniper said:


> post 179...Read it again...


You are the one who read something into it that was not there, sorry.

Like many, I don't enjoy it strictly for the meat, nor strictly for the antlers, but I never, ever said that I did not enjoy it


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## ubie42 (Nov 13, 2005)

Rounder said:


> When did man become a trophy hunter? Some here have complained about slob hunters shooting any buck they can eat. Is this part of society moving from country to city? Did it become prominent with our industrial age? Logging camps used to live on deer, I doubt they were all big bucks.
> 
> Obviously it feeds our ego. Life became easy for man. Needed something.
> 
> Any talk of big racks in historical books?


I am definitely in stage 3, sort of, but having a hard time calling it trophy stage. I have been fortunate enough to harvest a deer in the last 3 out 4. A 5pt,8pt, nothing, and this year a 6pt. None of which would be large to qualify for "trophy" status by definition for purposes of this discussion. I hunt state land. I am guessing all 3 deer were 1.5, the 8pt maybe 2.5... 

I choose not to shoot spikes or does in the area I hunt. The deer numbers just are not that high in my observations. However, every deer I have shot, 6 total life time have been special for different reasons...My small 5 pt is a shoulder mount on the wall, but my 8pt is just on a plaque, although a little bigger. 

I don't come from a hunting family. My dad took me out when I was 16, I loved it, and have been going ever since... We never harvested a deer, but it didn't really matter...the time together is priceless...it took awhile to figure out why we never got a deer, back then about a week before the firearm opener we drive up and pick some nice trees to sit under, etc... 

Then, the morning of, drive up north... Stop for breakfast on the way and bs with other hunters. My dad smoked cigars back then too, so both smelled really good heading out opening morning...

We always saw a few does, but never any bucks, except those hanging in nearby camps. We didn't bait or apply for doe permits. Dad would never shoot a doe. This went on for about 7 years, then I was off to college...

CMU, FIRE UP CHIPS!!! my roommate was a bow hunter.... So I got a used bow, he introduced me to a farmer "frank". Hunted on the farm from 1997-2003. 

This area was great. I was still learning and very novice, I had a neat little Hoyt bow, but was never really a great shot, even with practice. I finally got my first buck on October 10th, 1998. What a relief to finally get a deer after so many years of close calls, missed shots, a few hits with no finds, etc... A 1.5 yr old 6pt... 

Fast forward, l shot a 5pt on my neighbors property in 2005, so that made 2 bucks! But I had yet connected on state land... 

I was seeing more bucks, my scouting and attention to detail, scent lock, wind, etc... Went into hyper drive... Trying to figure out the wood lot deer in the state lands... From 2006-present I was seeing bucks every deer season, missed a handful, hit 2 without finding them... All with a bow... Sort of quit gun hunting, just not my thing anymore. 

So, 2012 rolls around, keep in mind I have yet to harvest a deer on state land, hunted all October, not seeing a whole lot, then November rolls in... The first of the month on a nice cold Sunday morning. I jump in the car like any other weekend morning, usually the only time I can go... 

About 9:00 am this lone 5pt comes cruzin thru and gets about 23 yards broadside, my knees are shaking, I draw the bow, sites on the lung, and released... Shot went high, but the way I was shaking, I am lucky I hit it... Hit the spine and dropped right there, not dead, just could not use his back legs... 

So now what, I am by myself, and looking into the eyes of the animal I just wounded, just feet away... It was a deeply moving experience that I will cherish forever. I was humbled, thankful, yet felt saddened. It wasn't supposed to happen this way, but it did, and I have since come to grips with the reality that things in nature just don't always go as planned. It is not always clean, and not always just. Mother Nature can be cruel, we see it all the time on tv in the jungles and rainforests. But this time I was the predator. So, I carefully draw another arrow and put the deer down, then I just sat there, I couldn't move... I sat with that deer for 30 minutes before even thinking off anything else. 

I was consumed by every emotion imaginable in the short period of time from the moment I saw the deer until it expired. I would never be the same... I cheered and I cried with that deer... And I finally got a deer on state land! What made this so special is that I did it on my own, from scouting to preparation, etc.. While the previous 2 private land kills were special, it just wasn't the same. Those spots were picked out for me. I didn't do anything except pull the trigger..

So this little 5pt was a lifetime of hunting that began 20+ years ago. It was an experience that very few will ever come to know. That deer will mean more to me than any deer I shoot from this day forward. I look at that mount every day. 

I come visit this site and others to, often. I enjoy the pics and the stories. But I am often saddened by other hunters who are so quick to judge, so quick to challenge the worthiness of another's hunt, or kill... And that is why I choose not to post my pics. I just cannot deal with someone telling me that I should have let it go, that apr's are the way to go...etc... Etc... 

You don't know me. You don't know where I hunt. You don't know how many hours of scouting I put in. You don't know how many deer I have shot, or missed. You don't know how many cameras or deer stands have been stolen. You don't know if I hunt alone or at a camp. You don't know how many days I hunt. You don't know if I have one tag, or the combo tag. You don't know if I need the meat, or hunt for sport. 

Yet, some of you will see a picture of that spike, and before you know the story, will be quick to judge, and say "you shouldn't shoot that, it is too small." 

Me, I say congratulations. I will not support making apr's mandatory, but if it works for you great! I will never judge you or your harvest. I am your friend and a great fellow Hunter if I come across you in the field. I will not set up near you if I find your stand, and I won't take it. I won't take your camera either! Good luck! 

Enjoying the outdoors is truly an amazing experience and great resource. I hope you all enjoy your time out of doors as much as I do!


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> You are the one who read something into it that was not there, sorry.
> 
> Like many, I don't enjoy it strictly for the meat, nor strictly for the antlers, but I never, ever said that I did not enjoy it


Unfortunately your not the only that doesn't reread their post before hitting that arrow thingy...Your apology is accepted...


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## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

cscott711 said:


> Total db move, but I would argue that many people include wages in evaluating how successful they are. There's nothing wrong with that either.


It would be an interesting study to see if there was a correlation between support for MAPRs and annual household income.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I will say, that as generous as I can be, I hate gralloching deer for people that don't want to do it for themselves.
It always bugs me.
Call me petty, but I don't get good feelings inside when a shooter tries to push that job off. Unless they are crippled in some way. Then I'm happy to step up.
If it's a kid, newbie, 1st one, etc. I'll sit right there and walk you through it. Even help you make it easy. But you'll be on the knife. I'll give you gloves, sharpen your knife, hold a light, pull your sleeves back, clean your glasses, even give you a wet wipe when you are done. Hell, I'll give you a cervid anatomy lesson, But, if you are gonna kill it, you are gonna clean it.
Unless you paid me for it. Then it's my job to do.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Maybe the bigger question would be, "When did hunters start worrying about what other people call trophies?"


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Tom (mich) said:


> It would be an interesting study to see if there was a correlation between support for MAPRs and annual household income.


Of course there is.
I've had many people go on and on about how soon they needed to get back to work. Or how much they were losing taking a week off to go out west.
I always say, "I'm on vacation. If I couldn't afford to go, I'd stay home. I don't want to hear about it."

I took a guy to Montana that wanted to sleep in the car for 10 days, and then asked for some of my kill so he could show his wife he came home with a possession limit! He never contributed so much as a peanut for the whole miserable excursion. 

When you start mixing opportunity costs, vacation time, and a tight budget, you better quit hunting. You'll poison everyone around you.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

ubie42 said:


> I am definitely in stage 3, sort of, but having a hard time calling it trophy stage. I have been fortunate enough to harvest a deer in the last 3 out 4. A 5pt,8pt, nothing, and this year a 6pt. None of which would be large to qualify for "trophy" status by definition for purposes of this discussion. I hunt state land. I am guessing all 3 deer were 1.5, the 8pt maybe 2.5...
> 
> I choose not to shoot spikes or does in the area I hunt. The deer numbers just are not that high in my observations. However, every deer I have shot, 6 total life time have been special for different reasons...My small 5 pt is a shoulder mount on the wall, but my 8pt is just on a plaque, although a little bigger.
> 
> ...


Nice post. 

Happy trails.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

ubie42 said:


> I am definitely in stage 3, sort of, but having a hard time calling it trophy stage. I have been fortunate enough to harvest a deer in the last 3 out 4. A 5pt,8pt, nothing, and this year a 6pt. None of which would be large to qualify for "trophy" status by definition for purposes of this discussion. I hunt state land. I am guessing all 3 deer were 1.5, the 8pt maybe 2.5...
> 
> I choose not to shoot spikes or does in the area I hunt. The deer numbers just are not that high in my observations. However, every deer I have shot, 6 total life time have been special for different reasons...My small 5 pt is a shoulder mount on the wall, but my 8pt is just on a plaque, although a little bigger.
> 
> ...


Good hunting to ya ubie42.
Measure your success by your own standards.

Trophy..an object (such as a large cup or sculpture) that is given as a prize for winning a competition

: something that you keep or take to show that you were successful in hunting, war, etc.


sou·ve·nir
ˌso͞ovəˈnir/
_noun_

a thing that is kept as a reminder of a person, place, or event.
synonyms: memento, keepsake, reminder, remembrance, token, memorial; More
_verb_informal

*1*.
take as a memento.
The definition of trophy varies tremendously.
Here, the size of it seems to matter often.

A friend has a prized rack from a yearling from a banner hunt , despite what has been hunted successfully in the past it has special association that remains unrivaled. 
Beauty remains as ever in the eye of the beholder.


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

ubie42 said:


> I am definitely in stage 3, sort of, but having a hard time calling it trophy stage. I have been fortunate enough to harvest a deer in the last 3 out 4. A 5pt,8pt, nothing, and this year a 6pt. None of which would be large to qualify for "trophy" status by definition for purposes of this discussion. I hunt state land. I am guessing all 3 deer were 1.5, the 8pt maybe 2.5...
> 
> I choose not to shoot spikes or does in the area I hunt. The deer numbers just are not that high in my observations. However, every deer I have shot, 6 total life time have been special for different reasons...My small 5 pt is a shoulder mount on the wall, but my 8pt is just on a plaque, although a little bigger.
> 
> ...


Great post. Thanks, ubie42

Your post speaks volumes. Especially these 2 paragraphs.

*But I am often saddened by other hunters who are so quick to judge, so quick to challenge the worthiness of another's hunt, or kill... And that is why I choose not to post my pics. I just cannot deal with someone telling me that I should have let it go, that apr's are the way to go...etc... Etc...

You don't know me. You don't know where I hunt. You don't know how many hours of scouting I put in. You don't know how many deer I have shot, or missed. You don't know how many cameras or deer stands have been stolen. You don't know if I hunt alone or at a camp. You don't know how many days I hunt. You don't know if I have one tag, or the combo tag. You don't know if I need the meat, or hunt for sport. *

I agree. Too many are too quick to judge.

Thanks, again.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Waif said:


> Good hunting to ya ubie42.
> Measure your success by your own standards.
> 
> Trophy..an object (such as a large cup or sculpture) that is given as a prize for winning a competition
> ...


A prize is a prize and a trophy is a trophy, I hope we never get the 2 mixed up.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> A prize is a prize and a trophy is a trophy, I hope we never get the 2 mixed up.


Yes. I get your point.
I included the entire definition but prefer to use the second definition. [: something that you keep or take to show that you were successful in hunting, war, etc.] Thus the "sovien" reference that followed.
Could use prize as in he then secured his prize..or a prized whitetail..but easy to misinterpret due to varied interpretations even after conventional ones of what a prize constitutes..
Enough fun doing that with definition of a trophy.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

FREEPOP said:


> Maybe the bigger question would be, "When did hunters start worrying about what other people call trophies?"


Probably when people starting calling things a trophy that didn't meet the actual definition of a trophy.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

I don't see many spikes or forks in the trophy records, could be because they don't meet the criteria. If it ain't one don't call it one


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> Ones not many . Cool spike though


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

cscott711 said:


> I give up. Reading through the list of laws you'd like to impose, it's clear you've been "scoped" one too many times in your lifetime :lol: Just cain't reason with sum people.


I still think he's gotta be joking. No one could actually be such an idiot as to hope that it will be illegal or a tax will be paid when a hunter gives a neighbor or a family member a venison roast or a stick of summer sausage.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Waif said:


> View attachment 199202
> 
> 
> View attachment 199199
> ...


Its unfortunate that those bucks are not recognized in the trophy class record books. Those are dandies


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

November Sunrise said:


> I still think he's gotta be joking. No one could actually be such an idiot as to hope that it will be illegal or a tax will be paid when a hunter gives a neighbor or a family member a venison roast or a stick of summer sausage.


He's not joking..Research his posts...


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## GDLUCK (Dec 2, 2002)

cscott711 said:


> I give up. Reading through the list of laws you'd like to impose, it's clear you've been "scoped" one too many times in your lifetime :lol: Just cain't reason with sum people.


the fact that you have to give away venison because your wife doesn't eat it is an EXCUSE. eating together is another convenient EXCUSE. You CAN eat together AND eat different things. 

I know many couples where one is vegetarian. they eat together every night and meat is eaten.

But i do agree with reasoning with some people. Excuses defy the reason


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> Its unfortunate that those bucks are not recognized in the trophy class record books. Those are dandies


Who is calling them trophy books?

Records.

http://www.boone-crockett.org/bgrecords/worldrecordsdetail.asp?area=bgrecords&type=whitetail


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Last-n-Draw said:


> Maybe your idea of a trophy and mine are different.
> 
> So if it's not in the record book it's not a trophy?? There is more to a trophy than inches of horn. I know it's difficult for some sportsman to grasp it.


I'm also very intrigued by the weight of some deer..The heavier the more intriguing to me...Does that count as a trophyism???


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Last-n-Draw said:


> Maybe your idea of a trophy and mine are different.
> 
> So if it's not in the record book it's not a trophy?? There is more to a trophy than inches of horn. I know it's difficult for some sportsman to grasp it.





Last-n-Draw said:


> Maybe your idea of a trophy and mine are different.
> 
> So if it's not in the record book it's not a trophy?? There is more to a trophy than inches of horn. I know it's difficult for some sportsman to grasp it.


Yup I dont recognize a trophy class buck as a trophy unless it meets book status
These bucks are nice and only one might make trophy status 








I am fine with that







this one definitely does. But I wouldn't dare call the other ones trophys. Nice but not trophies


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Waif said:


> Who is calling them trophy books?
> 
> Records.
> 
> http://www.boone-crockett.org/bgrecords/worldrecordsdetail.asp?area=bgrecords&type=whitetail


Look up trophy class and see what pops up


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

GDLUCK said:


> the fact that you have to give away venison because your wife doesn't eat it is an EXCUSE. eating together is another convenient EXCUSE. You CAN eat together AND eat different things.
> 
> I know many couples where one is vegetarian. they eat together every night and meat is eaten.
> 
> But i do agree with reasoning with some people. Excuses defy the reason


You know that feeling you get when you help others? I enjoy that feeling. No excuses needed, but reasons previously stated. I get to do what I love, save a little bit of venison for me, and share it with others who aren't as fortunate. I have a blessed life indeed.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

brushbuster said:


> Probably when people starting calling things a trophy that didn't meet the actual definition of a trophy.


The definition of a trophy by what or whose criteria? Therein lies the problem!

Steve


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## Last-n-Draw (Mar 2, 2010)

A


sniper said:


> I'm also very intrigued by the weight of some deer..The heavier the more intriguing to me...Does that count as a trophyism???


Absolutely. Trophy deer are like woman. Some like them big with small racks and some like them small with big racks. Either way you like them as long as it's a trophy to you that's all that matters. It's a good thing we don't have combo tags for wives.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Last-n-Draw said:


> Maybe your idea of a trophy and mine are different.
> 
> So if it's not in the record book it's not a trophy?? There is more to a trophy than inches of horn. I know it's difficult for some sportsman to grasp it.


When I was growing up, only the top 3 places got trophies. Nowadays, everyone thinks they're entitled to a trophy. That's the difficult thing to grasp. Everyone's not a winner and everyone doesn't get a trophy. We're sissifying America people. 

But please, leave my MS Trophy Points alone. I worked hard for all 2,203 of them! :woohoo1:Yeah baby!


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

November Sunrise said:


> I still think he's gotta be joking. No one could actually be such an idiot as to hope that it will be illegal or a tax will be paid when a hunter gives a neighbor or a family member a venison roast or a stick of summer sausage.


It appears not.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Hey if you guys wanna say something is 6 inches when its not, by all means do so, but it doesn't make it 6 inches


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## Last-n-Draw (Mar 2, 2010)

cscott711 said:


> When I was growing up, only the top 3 places got trophies. Nowadays, everyone thinks they're entitled to a trophy. That's the difficult thing to grasp. Everyone's not a winner and everyone doesn't get a trophy. We're sissifying America people.
> 
> But please, leave my MS Trophy Points alone. I worked hard for all 2,203 of them! :woohoo1:Yeah baby!


You got a trophy for 2nd and 3rd place and kept it?? I was so pi$$ed about not winning my 2nd place trophy was thrown in the 1st garbage I passed!! My kids have that same drive. 2nd place is the 1st loser. Not helping in sissifying America in my house.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> Look up trophy class and see what pops up


First thing that popped up was trophy class realty.http://www.trophyclassrealestate.com/

Second try was https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=trophy+class

I'd send a trophy for best use of "trophy" used out of context that I'm sure would be prized by you.
But then others would claim better ones.
That would lead to minimum standards, all qualifying entries being recorded, and trying to not lose that whiff of exclusivity when everyone wants a trophy.
Too many similar acknowledgements would devalue yours!...


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Last-n-Draw said:


> You got a trophy for 2nd and 3rd place and kept it?? I was so pi$$ed about not winning my 2nd place trophy was thrown in the 1st garbage I passed!! My kids have that same drive. 2nd place is the 1st loser. Not helping in sissifying America in my house.


Lol, who said anything about me getting 2nd and 3rd? Anyways, that analogy was more in sync with trophies and record books as more than just the world record is entered in those books.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

cscott711 said:


> When I was growing up, only the top 3 places got trophies. Nowadays, everyone thinks they're entitled to a trophy. That's the difficult thing to grasp. Everyone's not a winner and everyone doesn't get a trophy. We're sissifying America people.
> 
> But please, leave my MS Trophy Points alone. I worked hard for all 2,203 of them! :woohoo1:Yeah baby!


That's my beef! If it is indeed a trophy then call it a trophy but don't sissify the rest of us by calling something a trophy when its not just because that person wants it to be one. 
I say, earn that status


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Munsterlndr said:


> That is certainly true. It's also true that not everyone hunts during archery season. Some don't have the time to do so on a regular basis. Others can't afford the equipment or have decided that the population in the area in which they hunt can't support additional antlerless harvest. In those situations, reducing the number of legal male targets can have a corresponding impact on diminishing their opportunity to put some meat in the freezer.


If one chooses not to hunt a season, the longest season with the most opportunity, that's their choice. I know hunters that choose not to hunt with firearms. I can think of 3 just off the top of my head, who are exclusive bow hunters. A used compound bow can be found for under $100. If one is so in need of meat, the smart choice would be to sell the rifle and buy an old used bow, so they can take advantage of the biggest opportunity for meat, being the 2 antlerless tags, good on over 1,000,000 acres of public land in the LP. The big opportunity is for antlerless deer, which greatly outnumber antlered bucks and it's for the 2 1/2 months of archery season vs. the limited firearms opportunities for antlered bucks.

As far as sound scientific management, it makes more sense to have more hunters targeting more antlerless deer.

In addition, more hunters taking for does may help in the fight against CWD.

To reduce deer density.

In many areas, whitetail populations are at or above the carrying capacity of the land, and herd reduction or stabilization is needed. This can only be achieved through the harvest of adult does — the reproductive segment of the herd. Ironically, one of the greatest obstacles to the acceptance of doe harvest by some hunters is the adage, “I won’t shoot a doe because it would be like killing three deer.” While on the surface this would be true — assuming the doe was mature (generally 2 1/2 years old or older) and carrying twin fawns — it demonstrates a lack of understanding of deer biology. Numerous studies have shown that as deer herds approach carrying capacity, reproductive success and fawn recruitment rates decline. In other words, fewer fawns are actually recruited into the pre-hunting season population than could be recruited from a smaller, but healthier herd.

To reduce dispersal of young bucks.

Research suggests that active doe harvests reduce the average home range size of young bucks (five to 18 months old) and the percent of yearling bucks that disperse from their birth area. Both result in more bucks staying closer to home instead of dispersing the typical one- to five-mile range found in most studies. For more information on this topic, see the article by Shaw, Lancia, Conner, and Rosenberry on page 30.
https://www.qdma.com/corporate/antlerless-deer-management


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## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> Yup I dont recognize a trophy class buck as a trophy unless it meets book status
> These bucks are nice and only one might make trophy status
> View attachment 199204
> 
> ...


Nice bucks. I am completely serious when saying this but we have some racks about that big laying on the barn floor in the pile we keep after cutting them off. Most shot by my brothers and nephews and not me LOL. Priorities I guess. Your taxidermist loves you I bet.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> That's my beef! If it is indeed a trophy then call it a trophy but don't sissify the rest of us by calling something a trophy when its not just because that person wants it to be one.
> I say, earn that status


I agree with earning that status. The same way those who have done so in the past did and on equal terms with the hardest earned ones then and today..
Not by increasing the amount of trophies to make it easier!

Does private land or paying a lease vs public land mean earned the same?
Age and physical ability of hunter?
State or region of state?


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## Last-n-Draw (Mar 2, 2010)

brushbuster said:


> Hey if you guys wanna say something is 6 inches when its not, by all means do so, but it doesn't make it 6 inches


3" in and 3" out don't = 6"????


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Waif said:


> I agree with earning that status. The same way those who have done so in the past did and on equal terms with the hardest earned ones then and today..
> Not by increasing the amount of trophies to make it easier!
> 
> Does private land or paying a lease vs public land mean earned the same?
> ...


Why wouldn't it? some public land is easier to hunt then some private. Some private has more hunters than some public. Some private has poorer habitat than some public. What's your point?


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

JVoutdoors said:


> Nice bucks. I am completely serious when saying this but we have some racks about that big laying on the barn floor in the pile we keep after cutting them off. Most shot by my brothers and nephews and not me LOL. Priorities I guess. Your taxidermist loves you I bet.


I agree that's why I posted them. Those are souvenirs not trophies. They represent some memorable hunts. Some guys would call them trophies I don't.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> Why wouldn't it? some public land is easier to hunt then some private. Some private has more hunters than some public. Some private has poorer habitat than some public. What's your point?


Earned is my point.
Earned on equal terms of availability and access against what ever standard was established to make them records.
That is the flaw in books. States that don't produce consistent qualifying bucks, portions of states that don't.
Heck, Canada compared to some states there is no contest.
Have you any idea the ratio of book bucks taken here on private vs public? Some records to present perhaps..my biggest all came from private despite many less hours hunting it.
If you are willing I'll put you on a parcel of public to hunt record book bucks while I hunt private..
Ohh, you don't get to be able to walk either just so you are earning it the same..
Should a buck you kill be less than the biggest some one else killed , why did you kill it?
It was good enough for your personal standards?
Should some one kill a buck that scores less than yours and your standards, do you consider it less a trophy to them because their standards are wrong?

It's like nanny-ism belongs in deer hunting now suddenly.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Waif said:


> Earned is my point.
> Earned on equal terms of availability and access against what ever standard was established to make them records.
> That is the flaw in books. States that don't produce consistent qualifying bucks, portions of states that don't.
> Heck, Canada compared to some states there is no contest.
> ...


Waif. Would love to see the pics of those easy private land bucks.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Last-n-Draw said:


> You got a trophy for 2nd and 3rd place and kept it?? I was so pi$$ed about not winning my 2nd place trophy was thrown in the 1st garbage I passed!! My kids have that same drive. 2nd place is the 1st loser. Not helping in sissifying America in my house.



If a buck doesn't beat Milo's its just a pile of meat?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

View attachment 199210


bioactive said:


> Waif. Would love to see the pics of those easy private land bucks.


Why?
You doubt my credibility?
I don't have pics of all online.
Nor are they scored.
Anytime you are near ,pop in I'll show you some.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

tro·phy
Something gained or given in victory or conquest especially when preserved or mounted as a memorial.

It seems every hunter who has ever nailed a set of antlers (no matter how small) up in a garage, barn or shed is a trophy hunter.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Waif said:


> View attachment 199213
> View attachment 199210
> 
> Why?
> ...


His point was it isn't *easy* whether private or public. If it's easy, then I'd expect to see two 4.5 year olds on your wall from every season you've hunted in Michigan...or would that be too difficult?


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## devilsbuck (Dec 3, 2015)

Last-n-Draw said:


> Maybe your idea of a trophy and mine are different.
> 
> So if it's not in the record book it's not a trophy?? There is more to a trophy than inches of horn. I know it's difficult for some sportsman to grasp it.


A trophy is in the eye of the beholder.
That may be true, but like in many sports these days there are participation trophies and then the "real" trophy.
In deer hunting we have organizations that recognize trophy animals. If your animal does not qualify you are holding a participation trophy. 

There are winners and losers in everything these days no matter how much society tries to sugar coat it.


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## Last-n-Draw (Mar 2, 2010)

plugger said:


> If a buck doesn't beat Milo's its just a pile of meat?


Any animal I pull the trigger on is a trophy in my book. So this wouldn't be just a pile of meat. It would be a trophy pile of meat silly.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

bioactive said:


> Waif. Would love to see the pics of those easy private land bucks.


Smoking cigarettes,drinking coffee,no blind, sitting in a wheelchair.
Would you like to show a picture of a compatible buck taken on public land that you killed?

I have no pics of any kind of others beyond this one and the yearling I presented elsewhere on this forum that foled me....something that would be nice for spurring memories but just not a habit.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Waif said:


> I agree with earning that status. The same way those who have done so in the past did and on equal terms with the hardest earned ones then and today..
> Not by increasing the amount of trophies to make it easier!
> 
> Does private land or paying a lease vs public land mean earned the same?
> ...


 Go out west and tell them about that trophy you shot on private ag land. There is no comparison in a buck harvested on ag land and a trophy from public land. If you want a true trophy go to the up in the remote areas.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

cscott711 said:


> His point was it isn't *easy* whether private or public. If it's easy, then I'd expect to see two 4.5 year olds on your wall from every season you've hunted in Michigan...or would that be too difficult?


I cold show you a few ...if I could control buck fever.
You know darn well my claim was that private come a lot easier to me.
I have no interest in making them easier next year than those killed in the past.
It would change my value of them.
My argument is record bucks are taken under a variety of conditions not making their being available to all a moot point in what an individual considers a trophy.
Hunting an area that does not produce book bucks does not lesson the biggest that exist there, or less if it meets an individuals standard of trophy ..regardless of minimum qualifying standards for book bucks.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Waif said:


> Smoking *cigarettes*,drinking coffee,no blind, sitting in a wheelchair.


Don't you know those things will kill ya?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

plugger said:


> Go out west and tell them about that trophy you shot on private ag land. There is no comparison in a buck harvested on ag land and a trophy from public land. If you want a true trophy go to the up in the remote areas.


Out west.
A brookie from the Little Muskegon river vs a brookie from the Nipigon river in Canada will not compare well.

That does not detract from the Lil M's brookie being what he is once potential is met.
Or if considered a trophy by some one else's standard.
It may not make book yet be an acceptable specimen worthy of one mans standard of what a trophy is.
Should that man be looked down on for only killing a smaller than record book fish when he thought it was an accomplishment?
Were it caught in a private pond managed for big brookies would it make a difference?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

cscott711 said:


> Don't you know those things will kill ya?


Been near killed by another factor. Would not have mattered.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

devilsbuck said:


> A trophy is in the eye of the beholder.
> That may be true, but like in many sports these days there are participation trophies and then the "real" trophy.
> In deer hunting we have organizations that recognize trophy animals. If your animal does not qualify you are holding a participation trophy.
> 
> There are winners and losers in everything these days no matter how much society tries to sugar coat it.


Excellent post. Pretty much sums it up. That's what I've been saying, call it what it is not what it aint
For some reason Scotts post got quoted to. Wasn't my intention to quote it


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> Excellent post. Pretty much sums it up. That's what I've been saying, call it what it is not what it aint


Then call them record book bucks if score alone is the criteria.
Unless your standards are below those of minimum entry.
Then you just have to pretend you are really killing something worthwhile to...those who don't make book if impressing them is your goal.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Waif said:


> Out west.
> A brookie from the Little Muskegon river vs a brookie from the Nipigon river in Canada will not compare well.
> 
> That does not detract from the Lil M's brookie being what he is once potential is met.
> ...


I don't think calling someone's buck that isn't trophy class a nontrophy buck is looking down on it. It just ain't a trophy


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Waif said:


> Out west.
> A brookie from the Little Muskegon river vs a brookie from the Nipigon river in Canada will not compare well.
> 
> That does not detract from the Lil M's brookie being what he is once potential is met.
> ...


A brookie from the Little Muskegon river vs a brookie from the Nipigon river in Canada are both earned trophies, a brookie raised in a pond is a bought trophy.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> I don't think calling someone's buck that isn't trophy class a nontrophy buck is looking down on it. It just ain't a trophy


What's a trophy? A book buck or 
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/*trophy*
Merriam‑Webster
Full Definition of TROPHY. 1. : something gained or given in victory or conquest especially when preserved or mounted as a memorial.

What record book calls record bucks trophies?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

plugger said:


> A brookie from the Little Muskegon river vs a brookie from the Nipigon river in Canada are both earned trophies, a brookie raised in a pond is a bought trophy.


Amen!


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Waif said:


> Smoking cigarettes,drinking coffee,no blind, sitting in a wheelchair.
> Would you like to show a picture of a compatible buck taken on public land that you killed?
> 
> I have no pics of any kind of others beyond this one and the yearling I presented elsewhere on this forum that foled me....something that would be nice for spurring memories but just not a habit.


I actually found state land pretty easy to hunt back when I lived in Clare county in the late 70s. Prior to moving there and starting to hunt state forest, I hunted private land in Branch County MI and Steuben County IN and was never able to connect with a buck. First day I every hunted state land I killed my first buck within 3 hours (no pic, half racked with 4 on one side). 

I think your stance is that it is easy to have consistent success on private land compared to state land is way off base. It is a fact that 2/3rds of people who hunt private each year do not even get a buck let alone a trophy. In the two counties I hunt, private land pressure is around 20 hunters per square mile. It takes massive effort to consistently kill a book buck on most private land. It is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. What you do with this stance is foster the us and them attitude that creates so much division among hunters. I know a number of hunters who are consistently successful at killing big bucks on state land.
State land buck.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

plugger said:


> Go out west and tell them about that trophy you shot on private ag land. There is no comparison in a buck harvested on ag land and a trophy from public land. If you want a true trophy go to the up in the remote areas.


The UP has the best age structure of the three zones in our state. Year in and year out the UP outperforms the other two zones in terms of the harvest rate of older bucks.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

bioactive said:


> I actually found state land pretty easy to hunt back when I lived in Clare county in the late 70s. Prior to moving there and starting to hunt state forest, I hunted private land in Branch County MI and Steuben County IN and was never able to connect with a buck. First day I every hunted state land I killed my first buck within 3 hours (no pic, half racked with 4 on one side).
> 
> I think your stance is that it is easy to have consistent success on private land compared to state land is way off base. It is a fact that 2/3rds of people who hunt private each year do not even get a buck let alone a trophy. In the two counties I hunt, private land pressure is around 20 hunters per square mile. It takes massive effort to consistently kill a book buck on most private land. It is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. What you do with this stance is foster the us and them attitude that creates so much division among hunters. I know a number of hunters who are consistently successful at killing big bucks on state land.
> State land buck.
> ...


Is it one of your top three biggest? Meaning in relation to my claiming my biggest were off private (and easy).
Was it taken on the same terms as mine in making it easy compared to the other type land?
My personal experience is my personal view.
Easier to kill bigger bucks on private land.
Willing to swap with you next season...
You may tell me you kill bigger on public easier and dispute my claim, but it is not tangible on your part.

Great pic. posted again Bio.!
Wish I'd taken some back then,though some without deer are around somewhere....

Oh, too Bio.....
The lower zone three part of the state I recognize as seeing much greater hunting pressure than when I hunted it more in the seventies and early eighties.
I've taken deer since more often there than elsewhere, but realize I'm not hunting as low a low hunter density as originally.
Something I have not credited to your hunting in all past discussions of private land's advantage.
I consider yours not the standard representation of private but still private and more manageable for immediate hunter density and pressure..


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

When some one says "trophy class" what do you think of? An 80 inch 8 point or A125 inch pope and young 8 point?


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

bioactive said:


> The UP has the best age structure of the three zones in our state. Year in and year out the UP outperforms the other two zones in terms of the harvest rate of older bucks.


 If I were a trophy hunter the remote areas of the up is where I would head. I want to make meat and have easy hunting so I head to the farm!


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> When some one says "trophy class" what do you think of? An 80 inch 8 point or A125 inch pope and young 8 point?


I think of an expensive blonde.

In deer, one that tickles my fancy. Meaning any I kill. They remain each a life prior and their personal value to themselves just as dear.
I do not cheapen their value by trying to compare my appreciation to some one else's and that result in a negative view or value of the individual.
I've had mutts and then too have run a decade long program to create some fine dogs but a mutt is what it is. Still a dog, still a life, and confirmation in what one looks like does not always mean ideal characteristics, or challenge in acquiring success..


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

I figure


Waif said:


> I think of an expensive blonde.
> 
> In deer, one that tickles my fancy. Meaning any I kill. They remain each a life prior and their personal value to themselves just as dear.


 I figured i would end up with a waif answer instead of a straight answer.


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

Waif said:


> Been near killed by another factor. Would not have mattered.


The fact remains


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> I figure
> 
> I figured i would end up with a waif answer instead of a straight answer.


Hey, I don't do the inches thing.
If the eighty is bigger than the buck before it may be a trophy. If the dogs get the antlers for chews it might not be after a while.
Harder won it could be more of a trophy.
The larger buck hit by a truck...well depends don't it?
An eighty inch eight this year would have been a trophy to me.
To friends having killed bigger and still holding out for bigger yet, it would still be a trophy to me this year.
Any antlers kept by definition of trophy are trophies.
Those eligible for record book(s) are book bucks.
Call yours what you will a book buck does not mean trophy to everyone.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

Whether I see your name in a trophy book on not, I think no more or less of you.

You do realize that the majority of those who physically thumb through the pages of the trophy books, are those whose names they contain!

Steve


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

hitechman said:


> Whether I see your name in a trophy book on not, I think no more or less of you.
> 
> You do realize that the majority of those who physically thumb through the pages of the trophy books, are those whose names they contain!
> 
> Steve


I'm talking about cigarettes killing you, lol. Completely off topic.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Waif said:


> Hey, I don't do the inches thing.
> If the eighty is bigger than the buck before it may be a trophy. If the dogs get the antlers for chews it might not be after a while.
> Harder won it could be more of a trophy.
> The larger buck hit by a truck...well depends don't it?
> ...


Oh ok. Then in regards to the question of the thread by your definition we Michigan hunters have always been trophy hunters?


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

So anyone that sets out to shoot a buck is a trophy hunter? Got it.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

hitechman said:


> Whether I see your name in a trophy book on not, I think no more or less of you.
> 
> You do realize that the majority of those who physically thumb through the pages of the trophy books, are those whose names they contain!
> 
> Steve


It reminds of when I graduated from college I got this fancy letter that I been selected to be included in a list of who is who from American universities. In reading further I found that the biggest employers would use this list when hiring and the best looking women would consult the list when choosing a partner to copulate with. There was a minimal fee of 49.95 to cover costs. In reality neither the employers or the women consulted the "List". If you were lucky your mother might of been impressed. Unless your number one the deer books arent going to get you money or women so what's the point?


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

brushbuster said:


> Yup I dont recognize a trophy class buck as a trophy unless it meets book status
> These bucks are nice and only one might make trophy status
> View attachment 199204
> 
> ...


Have you shared the green score on that buck already, or have you decided not to?


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Munsterlndr said:


> Oh really?
> 
> So it's impossible for a doe to be a trophy? Please share with us the non-ambiguous criteria that qualifies a doe to be or not to be a trophy? This ought to be interesting......


nipple length


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

November Sunrise said:


> Speaking of trophies, what does the trophy quantification mean on MS? I understand number of posts and likes but what do "trophy points" mean?


As it was explained to me - all of our posts are fed into a powerful computer. A massive, complex algorithm calculates to aggregate value of each individual poster's posts, assigning "trophy points" as an accurate measure of the value of one's posts. It could therefore be said that a the member who has accumulated the most trophy points has contributed the most to the MSF community.

My question is this - are there published standings for these trophy points?


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

devilsbuck said:


> What about South in the remote areas? Like in the big woods of southern Ohio.


 Sorry not Ohio. I have been to Toledo and Cleveland and any state that a city referred to as the mistake on the lake doesn't count!


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

There was a thread here last year that was titled "Show Us Your Trophy Rooms" or something similar to that..According to some here, all those pages of guys that displayed proudly their rack rooms, should just take down their trophies, throw them in the corner of their garages, and then let the wife redecorate...Ridiculous!...The taxidermy Industry would love this idea...Every deer that I have ever harvested has had value to me..I also have been fortunate enough to shoot 8 or 9 that has a lot more "value" to me...And yes I have a "Special Room" for those and it isn't anywhere near my garage, basement or pole barn...To say there is not a difference is wrong...There are trophies, then there are obvious trophies..


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Would APRs still be considered a trophy program by some, since we already have a trophy program in place?


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## devilsbuck (Dec 3, 2015)

mbrewer said:


> Would it surprise you to know you are not even close to being right?


You don't have enough trophy points to judge yet.


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

November Sunrise said:


> I know it means nothing, but it's the mystery of how one person gets so much more nothing than another person that I'm worried about.
> 
> For instance, you Plugger have hundreds of more "trophy points" than I do. That would seem to suggest I need improvement in some area, but where? If I cleaned up my attitude would it help? *If I stopped shooting deer on Brushbuster's lease would that count for something?* How about if I disclosed all the cake baking boys who have multiple screen names?
> 
> Someone please tell me how I can get more trophies.


You keep saying that and someone is going to believe you.....the lessor found a headless buck and a melted bag of ice on his road front this weekend. True story...........


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> I
> 
> I Just found out we're all a bunch of trophy hunters


That would be great on a shirt!
Or a new outdoor show....
Got to get a good mix of characters though.
A little friction and lots of competition for book and non book trophy whitetail.....2 winners by weight , high and low.
What is won can be debated when camera is not on hunting.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

RMH said:


> You keep saying that and someone is going to believe you.....the lessor found a headless buck and a melted bag of ice on his road front this weekend. True story...........


Nah - ain't no one gonna believe nothing when it comes to my goofing around. I'm 100% confident Mike, Brad and Tom don't have any questions about my character.

As far as poached bucks, makes me think of the quote, "The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time most intellectually resisted fact."

One should not be surprised when derelicts do what derelicts do, but even though it shouldn't be surprising, it still stings intensely.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

November Sunrise said:


> Someone please tell me how I can get more trophies.


I'd bet a dollar to a donut hole that fudge could get you more trophy points.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

farmlegend said:


> My question is this - are there published standings for these trophy points?


Given the current rankings, apparently the consumption of bourbon and cheap cigars is one of the primary criteria included in that algorithm. :chillin:


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

FREEPOP said:


> I'd bet a dollar to a donut hole that fudge could get you more trophy points.


Think you're right. The wife was in bed but I roused her out and she's now mixing up a batch as I type. 

I'm gonna be awash in trophies once Steve gets a taste of that stuff.


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

Munsterlndr said:


> Oh really?
> 
> So it's impossible for a doe to be a trophy? Please share with us the non-ambiguous criteria that qualifies a doe to be or not to be a trophy? This ought to be interesting......


I GOT THIS ONE...........

Someone hunting in their first or second year a doe may be a trophy.

Someone like me hunting in their 50's hunting over 30 years a doe would not be a trophy.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Munsterlndr said:


> Given the current rankings, apparently the consumption of bourbon and cheap cigars is one of the primary criteria included in that algorithm. :chillin:


Hey, I like cheap cigars...what did I win again?


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Munsterlndr said:


> Oh really?
> 
> So it's impossible for a doe to be a trophy? Please share with us the non-ambiguous criteria that qualifies a doe to be or not to be a trophy? This ought to be interesting......


This lady (or man not sure which) bagged herself a trophy. All gods creations are trophies just ask her..(it)....


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## ryan-b (Sep 18, 2009)

Midalake said:


> I GOT THIS ONE...........
> 
> Someone hunting in their first or second year a doe may be a trophy.
> 
> Someone like me hunting in their 50's hunting over 30 years a doe would not be a trophy.


Having shot over 30 does i get just as excited about putting them in the freezer as and buck.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

ryan-b said:


> Having shot over 30 does i get just as excited about putting them in the freezer as and buck.



You are not alone on that. Even after 30 yrs of hunting and a pile of both sexes killed it makes no difference what the sex is or the size of the rack. The second I tell myself the shot will be taken it simply matters not what it is, I still get the "heart thumping wigglies". I truly feel sorry for those that have lost that, it's quite sad really. Maybe they should go shark fishing in a kayak or chase a polar bear with spear or something on that order. Taking a called coyote with a bow might do it for them too. That inspired my only true case of "buck fever". That darned coyote turned me to mush as he approached my hiding spot.


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## devilsbuck (Dec 3, 2015)

RMH said:


> You keep saying that and someone is going to believe you.....the lessor found a headless buck and a melted bag of ice on his road front this weekend. True story...........


Hmmm. I'll have to ask about that. His road or the one to the north?


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

357Maximum said:


> You are not alone on that. Even after 30 yrs of hunting and a pile of both sexes killed it makes no difference what the sex is or the size of the rack. The second I tell myself the shot will be taken it simply matters not what it is, I still get the "heart thumping wigglies". I truly feel sorry for those that have lost that, it's quite sad really. Maybe they should go shark fishing in a kayak or chase a polar bear with spear or something on that order. Taking a called coyote with a bow might do it for them too. That inspired my only true case of "buck fever". That darned coyote turned me to mush as he approached my hiding spot.


I agree 100% with your statement 357...But then how do explain the guy that gets those same "heart pumping wigglies" when he shoots a 1.5 yr junior varsity buck, then proceeds to throw them in the corner of his garage or give them to their dogs never to be seen again?... There are a few guys that have stated here that they only hunt for the meat..They can't possibly be getting the "heart pumping wigglies" if their just hunting for the meat right??..Total BS!


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

farmlegend said:


> As it was explained to me - all of our posts are fed into a powerful computer. A massive, complex algorithm calculates to aggregate value of each individual poster's posts, assigning "trophy points" as an accurate measure of the value of one's posts. It could therefore be said that a the member who has accumulated the most trophy points has contributed the most to the MSF community.
> 
> My question is this - are there published standings for these trophy points?


http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/members/?type=points and it is really not a complex algorithm.


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## pickle252 (Dec 24, 2013)

This is off topic, but i am not starting a thread with my one question. What is ag land? Does it stand for agricultural land?


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## goodworkstractors (Aug 7, 2007)

pickle252 said:


> This is off topic, but i am not starting a thread with my one question. What is ag land? Does it stand for agricultural land?


AG=agricultural land for the trophy hunter. 
AG=anything goes land for the brown it's down hunter




Kidding folks!


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

November Sunrise said:


> *Nah - ain't no one gonna believe nothing *when it comes to my goofing around. I'm 100% confident Mike, Brad and Tom don't have any questions about my character.
> 
> As far as poached bucks, makes me think of the quote, "The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time most intellectually resisted fact."
> 
> One should not be surprised when derelicts do what derelicts do, but even though it shouldn't be surprising, it still stings intensely.


You sure??? Neighbors mentioned at least one of the tall people was wearing weird camo. Sounds like a testosterone overflow to me!!!


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## Last-n-Draw (Mar 2, 2010)

W


devilsbuck said:


> A trophy is in the eye of the beholder.
> That may be true, but like in many sports these days there are participation trophies and then the "real" trophy.
> In deer hunting we have organizations that recognize trophy animals. If your animal does not qualify you are holding a participation trophy.
> 
> There are winners and losers in everything these days no matter how much society tries to sugar coat it.





Midalake said:


> I GOT THIS ONE...........
> 
> Someone hunting in their first or second year a doe may be a trophy.
> 
> Someone like me hunting in their 50's hunting over 30 years a doe would not be a trophy.


says who?


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## Richard Cranium (Feb 27, 2008)

jr28schalm said:


> Alot of them old guys thought once a spike always a spike to


I am amazed that this thought process is still alive and well!


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

brushbuster said:


> I don't think calling someone's buck that isn't trophy class a nontrophy buck is looking down on it. It just ain't a trophy


My son is getting a crossbow this Christmas. He will be practicing all year in anticipation of possibly getting the chance to shoot his first deer. He would love for it to be a buck... of any size. I already told him that any deer he gets will get mounted and he can hang it in his room. 
When that little buck comes back from the taxidermist, do you want to tell him it's not a trophy, or should I?
Or will you give him a big congratulations, then go back to qdma head quarters and push for more restrictive laws so this travesty will not happen again?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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