# The fall out!



## thunder river outfitters

All i can say is...WOW , Things started off with a bang, the first bears we got were during daylight hours. Some of the big boys were the first to hit. then the fall out began.
At the start of baiting season we had our baits just getting blasted, all the big boys showed up early and offen. With hardly any rain in the months of June and July, we got hit with a ton of it in august. Combined with very warm weather boosted the berries and other food sources to keep the bears away from our baits. 
Although they were still getting hit here and there, it just wasnt enough.
Meanwhile, I would email our customers to let them know things are not what we hoped, you cant fool mother nature. trying to pull bears away from natural food is nearly impossilbe. 
We had 6 hunters in camp for the last 4-5 days and only a sow and cub were seen, The bear activity wasnt what it should have been. mother nature beat us to the punch. We all can sit back and blame the hound hunters, blame small game hunter, and then blame 4wheelers and so on. Yes there was a ton of that this season, but in the end, mother nature really put the hurts to our area. the bear activity has picked up the last 2 days or so, but i feel the damage was done, and blame set on us.
As bad as we feel that our hunters went home empty handed, there is nothing we could have done. No matter how many baits we were able to put out, how many tracks we found, how many cameras we had out, bears were just staying away.
From reading alot of posts on here, it would seem alot of others in the red-oak had the same results.
We wish everyone luck the rest of the season, bears will be plentiful next year!

Dan


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## swampbuck

It is the worst I have seen, The ***** are even gone. Hopefully it will pickup in archery season. Its far from over.


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## Musket

Sorry to hear that Dan. It's like you say, the damage is done and the blame is being laid. Very tough to overcome and nearly impossible to explain to a hunter who has never bear hunted, has waited a few years to draw a tag and is not willing to try and understand a bears habit and why they do what they do. You did your best and thats all you can do.


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## thunder river outfitters

Musket said:


> Sorry to hear that Dan. It's like you say, the damage is done and the blame is being laid. Very tough to overcome and nearly impossible to explain to a hunter who has never bear hunted, has waited a few years to draw a tag and is not willing to try and understand a bears habit and why they do what they do. You did your best and thats all you can do.


yup, that does some it up. they can bash us all they want, but when you leave your piss bottle in the blind, along with garbage and reak of "pot", chew gum and spit it out of the blind, smoke on the way to the blind, we shouldnt take 100% of the blame. but that is just how it goes....lol


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## brushbuster

I got 2 hunters i am helping out and last night was the first night a bear felt bold enough to come in while a hunter was on stand. The boar was still stand offish. Just came in and sniffed the bait and then left. Unfortunately no shot oppurtunity.
The baits have been hardly hit. We have a sow and 2 cubs hitting in the afternoon but they arent even moving the logs. Just rolling around in the site and taking a few morsels that arent covered with logs.
I have said this before, its more than putting out bait sitting in the woods and killing one.
I agree swamp buck its far from over.
Sorry Dan, I sure as hell wouldnt want to put up with what you have to.


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## Spartan88

My bait never stopped getting hit, but most of the bears were coming in at night. When I got mine Sunday I was thinking about tree stand placements for October.


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## thunder river outfitters

Spartan88 said:


> My bait never stopped getting hit, but most of the bears were coming in at night. When I got mine Sunday I was thinking about tree stand placements for October.


 
lol..ummmm why dont you just add some more salt in our wounds...lol.. lucky s.o.b

lol:lol::lol::lol:


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## Spartan88

thunder river outfitters said:


> lol..ummmm why dont you just add some more salt in our wounds...lol.. lucky s.o.b
> 
> lol:lol::lol::lol:


I didnt mean to sound that way, sorry. I have baited at my camp for six years waiting for my turn to hunt. In past years I have had a bear come in for the hunter every year. I sat for roughly 20 hours before I saw mine, my first bear hunt and my first bear. I was getting mad that they were coming in after dark but that happens. I can say this, the thrill of the hunt was worth the wait for the tag.


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## TVCJohn

Dan,

Sorry to hear that. Along with the sweets I've got in the hole, the meat scrapes have been getting attention now at both baits. This is a nice one (of two) that came in this morning. He has a rib bone in his mouth. I thought for sure I'd get a shot at Bare Butt this morning. It wasn't meant to be. Maybe tomorrow for that stand. I'll try to sit bait 3 tonight.

John


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## thunder river outfitters

TVCJohn said:


> Dan,
> 
> Sorry to hear that. Along with the sweets I've got in the hole, the meat scrapes have been getting attention now at both baits. This is a nice one (of two) that came in this morning. He has a rib bone in his mouth. I thought for sure I'd get a shot at Bare Butt this morning. It wasn't meant to be. Maybe tomorrow for that stand. I'll try to sit bait 3 tonight.
> 
> John


lol..john, 2am?....ya better get that bow of your tuned, because im thinking thats when they will hit the best... archery season will be good this year!
2 weeks ago i was telling everyone it was gunna be archery season. with the warm weather it was gunna push things back about 2 weeks. i just got back in from taking down more blinds... all our baits that i have checked today were hit...hmhmhmhm go figure. i knew things would start to ramp up this week!


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## thunder river outfitters

Spartan88 said:


> I didnt mean to sound that way, sorry. I have baited at my camp for six years waiting for my turn to hunt. In past years I have had a bear come in for the hunter every year. I sat for roughly 20 hours before I saw mine, my first bear hunt and my first bear. I was getting mad that they were coming in after dark but that happens. I can say this, the thrill of the hunt was worth the wait for the tag.


lol spartan, i was being sarcastic...congrats on the bear!


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## TVCJohn

thunder river outfitters said:


> lol..john, 2am?....ya better get that bow of your tuned, because im thinking thats when they will hit the best... archery season will be good this year!
> 2 weeks ago i was telling everyone it was gunna be archery season. with the warm weather it was gunna push things back about 2 weeks. i just got back in from taking down more blinds... all our baits that i have checked today were hit...hmhmhmhm go figure. i knew things would start to ramp up this week!


 
Dan,

This was my lost opportunity here. Bare Butt at legal shooting hours yesterday.

John


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## buck11pt24

That's a good sign John. I know how you as we had a bait that we messed up on last yr. My brother was hunting it for a few days and then decided to switch to another one that was being hit, and the day he moved is when they showed up. Keep at it and your luck should change. Good luck


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## TVCJohn

buck11pt24 said:


> That's a good sign John. I know how you as we had a bait that we messed up on last yr. My brother was hunting it for a few days and then decided to switch to another one that was being hit, and the day he moved is when they showed up. Keep at it and your luck should change. Good luck


I'll be on it again in a few hours. I was on it at 0525-ish this morning and didn't see squat. Probably do the same thing again just so I don't disturb the first legal light. If when I approach I see the flash cam going off I'll have to stop and wait it out. My treestand is about 45-50 yards away from the bait. I can't sneak in to it without getting busted.


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## irishmanusa

thunder river outfitters said:


> As bad as we feel that our hunters went home empty handed, there is nothing we could have done. No matter how many baits we were able to put out, how many tracks we found, how many cameras we had out, bears were just staying away. From reading alot of posts on here, it would seem alot of others in the red-oak had the same results.
> *We wish everyone luck the rest of the season, bears will be plentiful next year!*
> 
> Dan


Well put DAN. Real Hunters understand, hunting is a sport - a way of life - not something you can buy at a store and return if your not satisfied! Keep up the good work!!!


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## Spartan88

thunder river outfitters said:


> lol spartan, i was being sarcastic...congrats on the bear!


Thanks TR the hunt was a thrill that I wont forget. Good luck out there, lots of hunting left in Red Oak. FYI, if I ever need a bear guide for someone in Red Oak you are the guy who will be called.


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## thunder river outfitters

for what its worth, i pulled the rest of the blinds today... and every freakin bait was hit yet again. so i decided to check the rest and couldnt believe it, the bears are hitting like crazy. i knew we were about a week or 2 behind schedual. we used the last of our bait yesterday just to see if i was right... and i was.
for those of you still out there hunting bears, its gunna get real good the next few days! dont let the small game hunters and the houndsmen get ya upset, they are going through the same thing.

ITS GUNNA GET GOOD THIS WEEK! IF YA HAVE TIME TO GET OUT... DO IT!


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## TVCJohn

My bait 2 keeps getting hit. Didn't see anything this AM at O'dark thirty. The bears moved my trailcam last night so I only had one pic.


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## billbrown

Nice to hear someone not blame hounds for once.


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## thunder river outfitters

billbrown said:


> Nice to hear someone not blame hounds for once.


my customers were complaining about it over the weekend, but i knew it wasnt the reason. just a bad bad season. 
the last couple days i have recieved a number of call from people looking to fill their tag because they to did not even see a bear. 
its been a very very ruff season, should get better from here on out!


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## thunder river outfitters

EXTREMERUSH said:


> The problem is that slobs will be slobs and will continue to do anything they want (thats on both sides by the way, before the firestorm starts). You cannot fix stupid, that's for sure. Stupid is the most dangerous variable we have to deal with out there. I agree something has to be done because the wedge that is in place is going to continue to drive us apart. There are enough outside forces working against us. We need to stick together and work this out. The last thing we need is someone else making decisions for us based on their emotions, or shutting things down altogether.


very well said, but here is the problem, the houndsmen are the only ones speaking up because they do have clubs and organizations to support thier sport. which is great! they are the ones keeping bear hunting alive in michigan. the bait hunter may only get a tag on avg. once in a blue moon, so do they really care to show support? i really dont think so and this is why its ran like this.

rooster, when clients ask me if they will hear or see dogs, i tell them that they have the same right to be there as him. there is nothing i can do about it, its state land and thats where most the bears are, and if they want to hunt with someone else, so be it. like i have said in the past, i know a great deal of houndsman and i commend them for what they are doing for the sport.
as for the dates, you and i both know that bear hunting is best with the least amount of rain through out the summer months and a cool weather patter from end of august through bear season, i know that bears can start hitting baits late in the season if the summer months are very warm and wet. what is it you suggest?...split season? what?


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## mstgman

I started Bear hunting in 04. I have made 4 trips to the Western UP for bear hunting since that time. All have been do it ourself bait hunts on public lands.

While hound hunters do use the same area occasionally, we haven't been impacted by their activities. Even if we we're, this is public lands and they have the same rights to this land as I do.

Private lands may be a bit different only from the perspective of knowingly dropping hounds on private lands they don't have permission on. As for a hound starting on public lands then ending up on private lands, that is a different situation. These cases the land owners need to realize the bear nor the dog could care less about who owns the land.

I'm hopeful one day I can experience the thrill of hound hunting.


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## TVCJohn

Here's a perspective for a gut check.

I'm from the south. If Michigan ever allowed hound hunting for deer, would everyone still feel the same way as they do now? Split season for the deer hounds? No split season...everyone deer hunts the same time?


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## hound1

The reason they only give 50 tags is that they only want to kill around 20 bear so they probably will never change our season much.They should start it on the 10th like the u.p.


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## Rooster Cogburn

Thunder, first off I want to express my sincere appreciation to you for helping make this an adult discussion and not taking my comments the wrong way. You asked my opinon on improving the quality of Michigan bear hunting. Here's my take: I moved here from Northern Wisconsin in 1973 and have dedicated a good deal of my life to bears and dogs in this area for 38 years now. At first it was just a few local guys baiting bears. We worked together trying not to interfere with each other. Eventually folks from other areas started hunting here in the national forest. New activity on the woods roads shows up like a sore thumb...and you could tell individuals were baiting in the area. I would try to avoid a good deal of the areas I hunted, but eventually got pushed back into bigger more roadless country. Now with the invention of atv's it is even more difficult to avoid others. Getting to the point...when the lottery system was introduced hunter numbers skyrocketed. So did the number of kill tags.
It is the excessive number of kill tags that is destroying bear hunting. You cannot cram that many people onto the state's public land and make it possible for each individual to maintain 12 bait sites...because the 3 bait per person rule is not enforceable...so, the excessive number of baits adds to the overcrowded conditions. Cut the tags....especially in the Bergland Zone where they have so many kill tags they can't even sell them all....and require bait ID tags with 3 per person. Thus for it to be a legal bait on public land it needs to have the permit posted. Idaho does it.

Thunder while I'm on here I also want to thank you for noting its mostly the dog hunter association pushing for good bear management. Although, it is fair to say others on the bear consultation Team have certainly contributed. Dog hunters know that bear numbers are greatly reduced in many areas in the state. Folks hunting off of baits will not notice it as much as long as they get some bear activity. I first began to notice a decline abouy 7 years ago. Ant hills contain thousands of ant larvae and it is one of the bears favorite food sources. I hunted bear by knowing what they were feeding on....and ant hills were natural bear bait sites. Less and less ant hills were being opened up by bears...and now it has gotten to the point where it is rare to find a dug up ant hill. There were over 100 wild apple trees on my land. Buy August bears were always in those apples. It has been 5 or 6 years since I found any bear sign under my apples trees. Just a couple examples....there's plenty more.

I began asking our bear biologists questions. Also began compiling DNR reports, etc. Then I got a letter from Bear Specialist Adam Bump written January 25, 2010 where he stated MDNR data will not support estimating bear numbers at the Bear Management Unit level. This was a real shocker. It is proof MDNR and the NRC does not have estimates for the 11 BMU's, but yet they still come up with the number of kill tags each BMU can handle? This is a far cry from managing Michigan black bear based on the best science. This is just the tip of the iceberg...there's a bunch more.

I sure hope we can spend some more time posting on solutions.


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## thunder river outfitters

rooster, i understand what you are saying. i have spoken with adam bump a few times about the tag issue, it was like talking to a brick wall. i can say this, we do have a ton of bear in the area and need to bring down the heard a bit, its getting kinda outa hand to be honest. 
i do allways see extra tags being givin out in your area, its like they want to destroy the population! 
i for one think that the split season needs to be put in place, so there is no bickering. this had been going on for years, so why dont they just split the seasons? everyone of my customers say they would be more then happy to hunt a shortend season to 5 days instead of the 8 days just so they dont see any dogs. i also think this will weed out alot of guides that shouldnt be in the business, becuase now they dont have anything to blame their poor skills on! anyone can blame the dogs and other things,,,what will they blame then?..lol any thoughts?


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## Rooster Cogburn

Thunder River, I am for sure open for discussion. Although, it could be said...in the UP there already is a split season. With the bulk of the harvest taking place the first 10 days of the season and the biggest harvest takes place the first 5 days. Folks like me get to hunt what's left. Now that our bear numbers are in the toilet it has a bigger impact on late season hunters because dead bear don't leave any scent. The first 5 days for bait hunting exclusively was intended to satisfy the folks complaining about dogs. Guys like me were all for it....now they're back wanting more. Not being sarcastic...it is how it has evolved.


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## jafurnier

How did people kill bears when they were over the counter?

I moved here 22 years ago. When I finally got interested in bear hunting...took 5 years to draw a tag in the NLP. Baits were getting pounded..then a massive wind storm covered the ground in acorns. Baits died immediately. I assume that is why???

I have a ton of points and have yet worked up the motivation to hunt bears in MI again. I would like to try again...but I cannot hunt early Sept. Wonder where to go?

I think my next attempt I will hire someone...

(BTW...you guys are much nicer to each other than the guyson the deer blog. Woah!)


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## TVCJohn

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Thunder, first off I want to express my sincere appreciation to you for helping make this an adult discussion and not taking my comments the wrong way. You asked my opinon on improving the quality of Michigan bear hunting. Here's my take: I moved here from Northern Wisconsin in 1973 and have dedicated a good deal of my life to bears and dogs in this area for 38 years now. At first it was just a few local guys baiting bears. We worked together trying not to interfere with each other. Eventually folks from other areas started hunting here in the national forest. New activity on the woods roads shows up like a sore thumb...and you could tell individuals were baiting in the area. I would try to avoid a good deal of the areas I hunted, but eventually got pushed back into bigger more roadless country. Now with the invention of atv's it is even more difficult to avoid others. Getting to the point...when the lottery system was introduced hunter numbers skyrocketed. So did the number of kill tags.
> It is the excessive number of kill tags that is destroying bear hunting. You cannot cram that many people onto the state's public land and make it possible for each individual to maintain 12 bait sites...because the 3 bait per person rule is not enforceable...so, the excessive number of baits adds to the overcrowded conditions. Cut the tags....especially in the Bergland Zone where they have so many kill tags they can't even sell them all....and require bait ID tags with 3 per person. Thus for it to be a legal bait on public land it needs to have the permit posted. Idaho does it.
> 
> Thunder while I'm on here I also want to thank you for noting its mostly the dog hunter association pushing for good bear management. Although, it is fair to say others on the bear consultation Team have certainly contributed. Dog hunters know that bear numbers are greatly reduced in many areas in the state. Folks hunting off of baits will not notice it as much as long as they get some bear activity. I first began to notice a decline abouy 7 years ago. Ant hills contain thousands of ant larvae and it is one of the bears favorite food sources. I hunted bear by knowing what they were feeding on....and ant hills were natural bear bait sites. Less and less ant hills were being opened up by bears...and now it has gotten to the point where it is rare to find a dug up ant hill. There were over 100 wild apple trees on my land. Buy August bears were always in those apples. It has been 5 or 6 years since I found any bear sign under my apples trees. Just a couple examples....there's plenty more.
> 
> I began asking our bear biologists questions. Also began compiling DNR reports, etc. Then I got a letter from Bear Specialist Adam Bump written January 25, 2010 where he stated MDNR data will not support estimating bear numbers at the Bear Management Unit level. This was a real shocker. It is proof MDNR and the NRC does not have estimates for the 11 BMU's, but yet they still come up with the number of kill tags each BMU can handle? This is a far cry from managing Michigan black bear based on the best science. This is just the tip of the iceberg...there's a bunch more.
> 
> I sure hope we can spend some more time posting on solutions.


Good, informative post. 

I have spoken to our local DNR biologists here numerous times over the spring and summer. I offered to help them collect the bear DNA samples (hair). I went down to the office a couple days back to drop off a CD of bear pics and see how the Baldwin harvest went. I didn't get a chance to talk to them because they were busy checking in the early season deer. Did see a couple of nice bucks a guy's two young daughters shot. I'm curious how the Baldwin bear harvest went.


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## shephard1993

thunder river outfitters said:


> yes cooler drier weather is best, as for the dates, i think we all wish (bait hunter and houndsmen) that the dates were split. i know the houndsmen think it doesnt bother the bears that they run past you, but it does in a way. the bears do return, but when? how long? some do return the next day, some not till 2 -3 days. having a 10 day season and letting the bait hunters use the first 5 days and the houndsmen use the next 5 would seem best in a bait hunters eyes. there are things you need to consider, the houndsmen really keep this sport going. they are the ones with all the pull to hunt bears. they use their dogs each and every year. a bait hunter only gets a tag once every 5-10 years, and the lack of support from the bait hunters is overwhelming.


 
I am a hound hunter, and agree with most of what you are saying. If the bait hunters had the first 5 days they would probly have a better hunt, but would it become to easy to kill a bear over bait. The houn d stirring them up a little may be a good thing. I am not saying good for the poor fella that baited and baited and then had his bear ran off, but good for the overall population. As a hound hunter I can usually find nocternal bear that are sucked into natural feed. They are going to move somewere sometime, but that dosnt help the guy on a bait. Finding a bear to chase is a far cry from killing the bear. We kill some bear, but many more get away then we harvest. The nice thing about hunting with the hound is the fact that killing the bear is by far the least important part, at least to me. Dont take me wrong I dont want them to stop the kill part of the hunt, but if they did I would still take the dogs and look for a track just the same as I do know. I relize the bait hunter struggled this year due to mass crop, we often struggle when the bear are sucked in tight to bait due to a lack of natural feed. I wish all bear hunters bait and hound the best of luck during the rest of the season.


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## giver108

shephard1993 said:


> I am a hound hunter, and agree with most of what you are saying. If the bait hunters had the first 5 days they would probly have a better hunt, but would it become to easy to kill a bear over bait. The houn d stirring them up a little may be a good thing. I am not saying good for the poor fella that baited and baited and then had his bear ran off, but good for the overall population. As a hound hunter I can usually find nocternal bear that are sucked into natural feed. They are going to move somewere sometime, but that dosnt help the guy on a bait.


This is an honest reply to what a lot of bait hunters are complaining about, IMO, and can agree with it. Let me also say that I have never hunted bears with dogs but have no issues with those who do and would like to try it sometime in the future as I hear it's a blast and have no doubt it is. What I find sort of sad though is that the potential of hounds interfering with a bait hunt may help the overall bear population. 

I have read here numerous times that bears run off baits return shortly thereafter, maybe the next day or maybe in 2-3 days. That very well may be true but to the guy sitting on a bait, they may see that as up to 60% of their hunt ruined. To miss even a days hunt when it took someone five years to even get to that point, not to mention time of work etc., goes over like a lead balloon and they will be mad at any guide they may have used. 

I don't know what the ultimate solution is but one thing that can be read into all of it is that the DNR needs to seriously reconsider how many tags they give out in each unit and how they go about accomodating both types of hunters. Seems to me that they are years behind the times of when there were far fewer bear hunters trying for a limited resource. Splitting seasons, alternating who goes first, re-evaluating management units may all very well be part of it. 

What about a spring season for bait hunters and fall for hound hunters? Just throwing that out there. That would definately end bait hunters bitching about dogs and probably also lessen the complaints from landowners about trespassing. At any rate, this is a good, civil discussion and I have enjoyed everyone's input.


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## thunder river outfitters

telling your clients that dogs may be present, small game hunting started and 4wheelers mabey present and seeing the look on their faces isnt plesant, but its something we cannot get away from. its called red-oak hunting where there is a 2 track every half mile in some cases.
having all this activity in the woods at one time is very tuff on our clients, yes i do have alot of private ground to use, but its only good if the bears find the bait. our 3 best spots the last few years have been on private...... not this year, to much natural food. combine that with all that i have listed, it was going to be tuff.
for the most part, we only heard/seen dogs for 2 days... it really wasnt that bad, i extended everyones stay for 3-4 days and it did quite down and bears started to hit really good(after the fact). do i think the dogs slow it down?..yes. do i think the bears return..hmmmm at some point..yes. 
hounds do have the advantage when it come to nocternal bears, no doubt, but i also do believe in the long run your chances are the same when sitting over bait or running the hounds. 
its a shame the blame is allways put on the outfitterrs/guides when we have no control over weather, 4wheelers, small gamers and hounds...ect. if you could eliminate a few of those, you will be able to see if the guide is a true guide or someone just taking your money. anyone can blame all the above for a poor hunt. last season we had great weather, a few dogs in the distance and no 4 wheelers and did awsome. activity in the woods this time of year is overwhelming. 
i guess what i am saying is make the bait hunters hunt prior to september 15th....start it on the 9th 10th? then unleash the hounds the friday/sat after that? just a thought.


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## Rooster Cogburn

As mentioned earlier, bait hunters have the first 5 days of bear season to themselves in the UP. It opens Sept. 10 for bait only.Hound hunters gave up the first 5 days of season to appease all the whining. Then last year bait hunters wanted more. So, now we have a 5-day quiet time prior to the bait only Sept. 10 opener. So, to respond to your suggestion of "making bait hunters start 5 days earlier" it has been in effect up here....and obvioulsy these folks are never satisfied. As you know, bears are most vulnerable the first 5 days of the season. They have been conditioned to come to the bait....especially if they are fed at the same time every day. This is a real windfall for the commercial bear baiting operations. Here in Michigan there is no limit on the number of guiding operations that can operate on our public land. They can even share the same areas. Idaho has 131 registered guides last time I checked. How many do you feel Michigan's public land can support without having a negative impact on other users? Nobody seems to be willing to answer that. One thing for sure....if all the commercial bear baits out there barked like a dog people who hunt on their own would blow a gasket at how many money baits are out there. It is starting to look like...if you are willing to pay for a commercialized bear hunt on public land it is perfectly ok for you to expect a pristine hunt and not have to share the woods. A good first step would be to reduce the number of tags and stop the overcrowding. Or, we can just set back and continue letting Michigan morph into one big high fence operation. Thunder River, I do not question your good intentions, but you got to admit....in your corner of the world a 5-day bait hunter only season would be good for business. 

Thunder, I hope you will attend the next bear users group meeting and express your concerns. And I would like to offer you a friendly challenge...when you get an opportunity to speak to the group tell them the Red Oak has a large bear population and in some areas there are too many bears(as noted in an earlier post).


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## EXTREMERUSH

Rooster Cogburn said:


> As mentioned earlier, bait hunters have the first 5 days of bear season to themselves in the UP. It opens Sept. 10 for bait only.Hound hunters gave up the first 5 days of season to appease all the whining. Then last year bait hunters wanted more. So, now we have a 5-day quiet time prior to the bait only Sept. 10 opener. So, to respond to your suggestion of "making bait hunters start 5 days earlier" it has been in effect up here....and obvioulsy these folks are never satisfied. As you know, bears are most vulnerable the first 5 days of the season. They have been conditioned to come to the bait....especially if they are fed at the same time every day. This is a real windfall for the commercial bear baiting operations. Here in Michigan there is no limit on the number of guiding operations that can operate on our public land. They can even share the same areas. Idaho has 131 registered guides last time I checked. How many do you feel Michigan's public land can support without having a negative impact on other users? Nobody seems to be willing to answer that. One thing for sure....if all the commercial bear baits out there barked like a dog people who hunt on their own would blow a gasket at how many money baits are out there. It is starting to look like...if you are willing to pay for a commercialized bear hunt on public land it is perfectly ok for you to expect a pristine hunt and not have to share the woods. A good first step would be to reduce the number of tags and stop the overcrowding. Or, we can just set back and continue letting Michigan morph into one big high fence operation. Thunder River, I do not question your good intentions, but you got to admit....in your corner of the world a 5-day bait hunter only season would be good for business.
> 
> Thunder, I hope you will attend the next bear users group meeting and express your concerns. And I would like to offer you a friendly challenge...when you get an opportunity to speak to the group tell them the Red Oak has a large bear population and in some areas there are too many bears(as noted in an earlier post).


The whole reason it took me 5 years to get a tag was the fact that I only applied for the first hunt in the Gwinn area because of the 5 day no hound period. If they increased that period would I turn it down, no but I'm happy with the 5 days,I don't have a problem with that. I've hunted bears in several states and in Canada. I get the whole that's hunting thing, I've eaten plenty of tag soup, like they say that's hunting. I also don't have a problem sharing the woods, because if you have ever had the pleasure of hunting in the thumb area, you would truly know the meaning of hunter pressure. I agree with what was brought up with the 5 day period being state wide. But I don't agree with you painting everyone with the same broad brush stating "these folks are never satisfied". I have never put the blame on any guide I've ever hunted with, as I believe these people did everything possible to make it happen. I think there are just to many variables involved to point blame, we as hunters play a major part in our own success. But when your time is limited, it magnifies everything. Your never going to make everyone happy, that's why it's up to us to make this happen and have a mutual respect for each other. I greatly appreciate the energy that Rooster, TRO and others put into these topics.


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## thunder river outfitters

rooster, i really really wish i knew where and what time these meetings are, but once again the state doesnt let anyone know about anything until the last minute, and its at that point you might here something about it on the local news..lol. then i would hope my busy schedual allows me to attend.
so if you could, flip me a pm to let me know when and where, god forbid the state makes you register as a guide then not extend an invite to a meeting..lol!


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## Rooster Cogburn

TRO, I will give you a head's up on the next meeting. Problem is, at the last meeting in St. Ignace the next meeting was to be held in late August or early September. Now it looks like MDNR did not follow through. Before complaining about that I contacted one fo the MBHA directors to ask about it. He in turn contacted Bill Walker then emailed back stating it looks like no meeting until bear harvest numbers are in. That kicks the can down the road far enough that it may be almost too late for any bear regulation changes. This along with the failure to come up with guiding regulations and the public meeting on the reg's as they committed to...is just one more example of serious management problems with MDNR. Most of us now realize we need to go to the legislature with the documentation we have. 

There are a few simple things that can be done to help reduce current problems like a 42 inch minimum from tip of nose to tip of tail requirement to take the guess work out of cub identification at checking stations and make it cut-and-dried for C.O.'s who want to enforce against cubs being killed and registered. When I brough this up to Adam Bump in a bear meeting...his response was 16 cubs a year being killed and registered is about average in other states. My response was, IT GIVES BEAR HUNTING AN BAD IMAGE AND MDNR OUGHT TO WANT TO CLEAN IT UP.

Another simple improvement...establish a bear baiting permit system for about $10.00 for 3 bait site tags. No tag would make it an illegal bait. The money should be earmarked for bear management use only. This would cut down on the excessive number of baits that are well beyond the 3 bait per person limit....and it would be something C.O.'s could actually enforce. 

These are just a couple examples, but the little things would add up. 

Sometimes it seems impossible for us to reach a consensus, but looking back...the Bear Consultation Team consisting of representatives from each user group was able to come up with a full consensus on issues. And it was a great start. Only problem was DNR administartors did not follow through on some recommendations.


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## thunder river outfitters

Rooster Cogburn said:


> TRO, I will give you a head's up on the next meeting. Problem is, at the last meeting in St. Ignace the next meeting was to be held in late August or early September. Now it looks like MDNR did not follow through. Before complaining about that I contacted one fo the MBHA directors to ask about it. He in turn contacted Bill Walker then emailed back stating it looks like no meeting until bear harvest numbers are in. That kicks the can down the road far enough that it may be almost too late for any bear regulation changes. This along with the failure to come up with guiding regulations and the public meeting on the reg's as they committed to...is just one more example of serious management problems with MDNR. Most of us now realize we need to go to the legislature with the documentation we have.
> 
> There are a few simple things that can be done to help reduce current problems like a 42 inch minimum from tip of nose to tip of tail requirement to take the guess work out of cub identification at checking stations and make it cut-and-dried for C.O.'s who want to enforce against cubs being killed and registered. When I brough this up to Adam Bump in a bear meeting...his response was 16 cubs a year being killed and registered is about average in other states. My response was, IT GIVES BEAR HUNTING AN BAD IMAGE AND MDNR OUGHT TO WANT TO CLEAN IT UP.
> 
> Another simple improvement...establish a bear baiting permit system for about $10.00 for 3 bait site tags. No tag would make it an illegal bait. The money should be earmarked for bear management use only. This would cut down on the excessive number of baits that are well beyond the 3 bait per person limit....and it would be something C.O.'s could actually enforce.
> 
> These are just a couple examples, but the little things would add up.
> 
> Sometimes it seems impossible for us to reach a consensus, but looking back...the Bear Consultation Team consisting of representatives from each user group was able to come up with a full consensus on issues. And it was a great start. Only problem was DNR administartors did not follow through on some recommendations.


for every guide i have, it will cost me $100 next season, thus giving us 12 more baits per guide. i do believe this is how they were going to run that part of it. 
we did run over 36 baits this past season which would take us 8-9 hrs per day, but we only really had about 15 baits that were getting hit a few times a week. ( i really want to forget about this past season)..lol
putting a number/id tag over the bait only would create more problems. others will locate your site and steal cameras, blindes and put deisel fuel over the bait. just like what happened all this season. why should a guide have to do that anyway? that is kinda childish..dont you think? what if i started and stopped a bait station? should my number stay there? that would even give our customers more to complain about because they will think its the outfitters/guides spot and dogs shouldnt run through it..lol i can only imagine what their reactions would be then!..lol


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## Rooster Cogburn

TRO, you might wan to check out Idaho's bear baiting permit process. What I suggested, and it has a good deal of support...is for anyone who wants to bear bait on public land they would be required to purchase a bear baiting permit. Three per individual. Thus to be a legal bait site it must have an ID posted. It is expected that it would be considered an act of hunter harassment if someone tampered with an individuals ID posted at a bait site. In the event someone did wrongfully remove an ID from a legal bait site it shopuld be reported to the local C.O. The local C.O. could have the discretion to issue a replacement ID. Like it or not, there is a definite need to ID bait sites and increase enforcement capability. Regarding guides and their clients...book before season and get your customers 3 ID tags when you collect the deposit for the hunt.
If the baits go cold....that's part of hunting. 

On another topic:
Here's an interesting finding a friend made recently with his gps system.
He lives and hunts in the Keweenaw Peninsula, mostly on CF land. The big time outfitter in the Keweenaw claims he is not guiding this year, but is reportedly baiting for "family members" on CF land. He told my friend there are plenty of bears in the area because he has all 5 of his baits being hit. My friend pulled out his Garmin GPS and showed how his dog cold trailed from his bait and continued on trailing through all 5 of his baits before jumping the bear(on CF). One bear made this "experienced" guide believe he had plenty of bears coming in. No doubt his family members/customers believed it, too. 

Here's another example: With all the baits in the woods around here, and so many trail cameras set someone over in White Pine got a perfect photo of a mountain lion roughly 3 weeks ago. The lion has tracking collar on. Then...a couple days ago...another trail camera photo of the same lion in Houghton county. Bottom line here, there are so many baits and trail cameras in this area even a mountain lion cannot operate in secrecy. There has to be a huge number of baits with trail cameras to photo the same lion in two seperate counites in a three week period.
Cut the tag allocation and increase the quality of Michigan bear hunting.


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## srconnell22

thunder river outfitters said:


> From reading alot of posts on here, it would seem alot of others in the red-oak had the same results.


That's because those who do the killing, don't do the posting. There is a group in Red Oak that killed five bear ranging from 179 to 413 pounds. 

I don't see how blaming your hunters because you couldn't produce an opportunity at a legal animal out of six hunters is helping your cause as an outfitter. Just my opinion.


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## thunder river outfitters

srconnell22 said:


> That's because those who do the killing, don't do the posting. There is a group in Red Oak that killed five bear ranging from 179 to 413 pounds.
> 
> I don't see how blaming your hunters because you couldn't produce an opportunity at a legal animal out of six hunters is helping your cause as an outfitter. Just my opinion.


 
scott, who said i was blaming the hunters? where did you come up with that?

this was a very constructive thread until your post. i think you might want to go back and re-read what was said.
also, why is it you never say anything nice to anyone on here, you allways sound so negative! why is that?

im glad those 5 guys got their bears, wahooooooooooooo. i didnt say everyone.. did i? i said " it sounded like alot of others" not all..... scott scott scott

with comments like this it just showes what type of person you really are!


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## srconnell22

thunder river outfitters said:


> yup, that does some it up. they can bash us all they want, but when you leave your piss bottle in the blind, along with garbage and reak of "pot", chew gum and spit it out of the blind, smoke on the way to the blind, we shouldnt take 100% of the blame. but that is just how it goes....lol


See above. 

All I'm saying is when at least 50% (probably higher) of your business comes from this website, you might want to be careful about how you go about things. As a potential hunter, seeing that post would be enough to cross your name off the list. 

Just my opinion, of course.


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## thunder river outfitters

srconnell22 said:


> See above.
> 
> All I'm saying is when at least 50% (probably higher) of your business comes from this website, you might want to be careful about how you go about things. As a potential hunter, seeing that post would be enough to cross your name off the list.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.


scott, i guees if you were to read the "whole thread" you would see i wasnt blaming them. but thats ok, i know what your trying to do! and no, i do not get 50% of my customers from here.

again, your pretty negative!


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## TVCJohn

srconnell22 said:


> See above.
> 
> All I'm saying is when at least 50% (probably higher) of your business comes from this website, you might want to be careful about how you go about things. As a potential hunter, seeing that post would be enough to cross your name off the list.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.


 
If I was a guide/outfitter.....

I would be somewhat mad if hunters left their trash, piss bottles, smoke butts, gum, etc out at one of the bait sites. That doesn't help the next round of hunters who maybe coming in to hunt the bait and the outfitter is left to clean up the trash. Granted it's a guide business but the hunters need to think about the impact of what they're doing or leaving behind.

Just looking at the other side of the coin....


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## srconnell22

TVCJohn said:


> Just looking at the other side of the coin....


Completely understood. 

The impression I got from this thread being started was to come on here and "head off" the complaints and bashing that were perceived to be coming from his clients, some of which are members here. 

If I went 0-6 on presenting a legal animal, I wouldn't be blaming my hunters or the cherry trees. I'd be looking directly in the mirror. In my opinion, anything else is making excuses. 

Not trying to start an argument or a fight, but to me an outfitter who takes responsibility for the success of his hunters is a better guide than one that makes excuses.


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## thunder river outfitters

srconnell22 said:


> Completely understood.
> 
> The impression I got from this thread being started was to come on here and "head off" the complaints and bashing that were perceived to be coming from his clients, some of which are members here.
> 
> If I went 0-6 on presenting a legal animal, I wouldn't be blaming my hunters or the cherry trees. I'd be looking directly in the mirror. In my opinion, anything else is making excuses.
> 
> Not trying to start an argument or a fight, but to me an outfitter who takes responsibility for the success of his hunters is a better guide than one that makes excuses.


scott you really need to go back and read my first post. i didnt blame the clients.. sometimes mother nature has a big hand into what happens.
my statement about blaming the hunters was a sarcastic remark because i know that is a cheap way out. and yes, alot of other guides in the area came up short also. but you wouldnt know that now would you?
all my customers knew it was going to be a slow season even before they left their house. they could have got their deposit back and went to another guide! i would email them 2-3 times a week, telling them things are very slow. so does it really seem like i was trying to rip them off like your trying to make it sound? i think you really need to go back and re-read everything scott!


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## Rooster Cogburn

Back in the day I dabbled in guiding over bait and some with hounds I made it clear....there are all sorts of things that can result in an unsuccessful hunt even on my private land, even more so guiding over hounds without the aid of a huge caravan of dog hunters. Always made it clear, if I did not feel the customer got his money's worth I would readily adust the fee. It was a matter of providing a quality service. Trying to make big money off of Michigan black bear...with the hunting pressure we have now days leads to all sorts of negative things. Baits going cold when new clients are coming in. Some are now slipping in close to active local baits and setting up for their client. Others feel it is ok to maintain more that 3 baits for every client. Hound hunters are a convenient whipping boy for poor performance. 

Years ago there was a big time commercial baiting operation that set up near the Ottawa Lodge near the Lake Gogebic shore. I never had any personal contact with them, but co-workers at the mine who lived in the Bergland area told me about them slipping in on their private property and setting up clients. Complaints of baits set up way to close to each other were common. There was even claims of assistants going in and messing up baits at night to fool customers into believing they were sitting on active baits. And now we are getting feedback about guides booking clients on CF land and telling them with a wink and a nod not to tell anybody. You don't need a ojiji board to know where this is going to end up. The level of sleeze that has infested Michigan bear hunting needs to get fixed and legitimate guides need to lend a hand and focus on MDNR to get a grip on things.


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## thunder river outfitters

rooster, 
i for one would love the state to do something about bear guides that are just in it for the money. for what i charge, i really dont make anything, its just something i/we like to do. but with the new rules and regs they will be enforcing next season, this will push out alot of these so-called guides and mabey some good one also. i really dont see a blue collard hunter paying $2,000 for a bear hunt here in michigan. so then again, the guide that is running under the radar will win out. i know of a few guides in the western u-p that do charge that amount already, with out the insurance and people just complain up a storm. 
last season i purchased an over the counter tag for the 3rd hunt in bergland. it was the guys right on lake gogebic, they still wanted $2,500 for that hunt. after him telling me that they see hundreds of bears during that time, i was a little skeptic..so i didnt go. 
i have spoke with 4 different guides in the area (red-oak), they all say the same thing, it was a poor , poor year. if we added it all up between us only 2 bears were taken out of 19 hunters. kinda says alot.


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## thunder river outfitters

srconnell22 said:


> Completely understood.
> 
> The impression I got from this thread being started was to come on here and "head off" the complaints and bashing that were perceived to be coming from his clients, some of which are members here.
> 
> If I went 0-6 on presenting a legal animal, I wouldn't be blaming my hunters or the cherry trees. I'd be looking directly in the mirror. In my opinion, anything else is making excuses.
> 
> Not trying to start an argument or a fight, but to me an outfitter who takes responsibility for the success of his hunters is a better guide than one that makes excuses.


scott i wasnt blaming them one bit, they did leave trash, piss bottle...ect but i knew it wasnt the case. i know well enough when baits get hit every so often, its due to natural food. plain and simple. if we had recieved the frosty nights/mornings like we normaly do at the end of august beggining of september that would have killed off the vegitation. but the 85-90 degree temps just before the opener really didnt help matter. thus keeping the natural vegitation alive.


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## Rooster Cogburn

TRO, you were wise to turn down the hunt in the Bergland Zone in the 3rd part season. There is a reason for all the left over tags. There are some pockets where you will find bears, but for the past 7 years or so it has been a steady downhill decline. Guys bear baiting for money will still give you the sales pitch...like Richard P. continues to do. Maybe they're related!


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## B&B guide service

thunder river outfitters said:


> rooster,
> i for one would love the state to do something about bear guides that are just in it for the money. for what i charge, i really dont make anything, its just something i/we like to do. but with the new rules and regs they will be enforcing next season, this will push out alot of these so-called guides and mabey some good one also. i really dont see a blue collard hunter paying $2,000 for a bear hunt here in michigan. so then again, the guide that is running under the radar will win out. i know of a few guides in the western u-p that do charge that amount already, with out the insurance and people just complain up a storm.
> last season i purchased an over the counter tag for the 3rd hunt in bergland. it was the guys right on lake gogebic, they still wanted $2,500 for that hunt. after him telling me that they see hundreds of bears during that time, i was a little skeptic..so i didnt go.
> i have spoke with 4 different guides in the area (red-oak), they all say the same thing, it was a poor , poor year. if we added it all up between us only 2 bears were taken out of 19 hunters. kinda says alot.


i was just reading your posts and you are completly right about everything. i had two hunters in the up this season that left all kinds of trash in the blind and we had to clean up after them. this season was one of the best we,ve had up here. i had 7 hunters and everyone got their bear, but it was only after we got the first frost that killed all the bears natural foods.


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## Rooster Cogburn

B&B I don't want to hurt your feelings, but to say frost killed all of the bears natural food off is simply not accurate. Frost does not prevent bears from feeding on late chokecherries, acorns, apples, clover, Beechnuts, hazel nuts, ant larvea, and a host of things we don't even know about.


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## thunder river outfitters

Rooster Cogburn said:


> B&B I don't want to hurt your feelings, but to say frost killed all of the bears natural food off is simply not accurate. Frost does not prevent bears from feeding on late chokecherries, acorns, apples, clover, Beechnuts, hazel nuts, ant larvea, and a host of things we don't even know about.


your right, but it does help in killing off most of it....lol


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## thunder river outfitters

B&B guide service said:


> i was just reading your posts and you are completly right about everything. i had two hunters in the up this season that left all kinds of trash in the blind and we had to clean up after them. this season was one of the best we,ve had up here. i had 7 hunters and everyone got their bear, but it was only after we got the first frost that killed all the bears natural foods.


doesnt that just piss ya off!...lol although this isnt why they didnt harvest any bears, but it doesnt help matters. smoke butts, candy wrappers, smell of pot (that one really pissed me off), piss bottles..ect. i had one guy that was really really bad, i didnt extend his hunt like i didnt everyone elses.


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## B&B guide service

Rooster Cogburn said:


> B&B I don't want to hurt your feelings, but to say frost killed all of the bears natural food off is simply not accurate. Frost does not prevent bears from feeding on late chokecherries, acorns, apples, clover, Beechnuts, hazel nuts, ant larvea, and a host of things we don't even know about.


 your right but it helps alot, where im from in the up we have real cold and hard frosts that kill alot of the vegitation. but your right about all the foods that bear eat that we dont even know about.


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## B&B guide service

thunder river outfitters said:


> doesnt that just piss ya off!...lol although this isnt why they didnt harvest any bears, but it doesnt help matters. smoke butts, candy wrappers, smell of pot (that one really pissed me off), piss bottles..ect. i had one guy that was really really bad, i didnt extend his hunt like i didnt everyone elses.


 hell ya, i had a guy last year that kept smoking and poping the tops on pop cans. when i got to the stand after he left, there was over 15 cans in it. no wonder he didnt see anything.


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## brushbuster

Well the bears are dropping now. 2 buddies from grayling just took one each last night, and another friend that i have been helping passed on 2. he"s got 1 giant hitting the bait at 8pm. Thats the one he wants.all others are getting a free pass.No one is for sure exactly why they are seeing the action that they are now verses the begginning of the season. More than likely less pressure, and the dying vegetation. you were right Dan, archery season did turn out to be the best season, at least in my area anyway.


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## TVCJohn

B&B guide service said:


> hell ya, i had a guy last year that kept smoking and poping the tops on pop cans. when i got to the stand after he left, there was over 15 cans in it. no wonder he didnt see anything.


 
With 15 empty cans of soda...that guy had to be pissing somewhere around there??? Did he see or get a bear at that bait?


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## thunder river outfitters

brushbuster said:


> well the bears are dropping now. 2 buddies from grayling just took one each last night, and another friend that i have been helping passed on 2. He"s got 1 giant hitting the bait at 8pm. Thats the one he wants.all others are getting a free pass.no one is for sure exactly why they are seeing the action that they are now verses the begginning of the season. More than likely less pressure, and the dying vegetation. You were right dan, archery season did turn out to be the best season, at least in my area anyway.


a week or so ago, 2 guys stopped over and wanted to know if i could show them spots i had this past season so they could bow hunt. Late last night they stopped by to thank me and show me what they had got. The south river location paid off for them. A nice boar about 350lbs......damit! Yes i did get that one on camera. 
Brushy...... I told ya so!


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## B&B guide service

TVCJohn said:


> With 15 empty cans of soda...that guy had to be pissing somewhere around there??? Did he see or get a bear at that bait?


 he said he seen a small bear. but he didnt come back to camp with it. after he left that bait wasnt hit for three days.


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