# Ban on muzzleloaders in shotgun zone?



## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

Heard a rumor the other day that there is a movement afoot to ban the use of muzzleloaders in the shotgun zone. is there any credence to this?


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

If a movement is afoot I would be willing to bet that it will go nowhere.


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## DoubleDropTineTrouble (Nov 11, 2007)

Tom Morang said:


> If a movement is afoot I would be willing to bet that it will go nowhere.


 
Agreed. Banning MLs and by doing so eliminating one part of the deer season in a part of the state that has seen increased efforts to reduce the population does not seem likely.


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

rzdrmh said:


> Heard a rumor the other day that there is a movement afoot to ban the use of muzzleloaders in the shotgun zone. is there any credence to this?


Did you hear this at the gun counter in Gander Mtn? thats the only place to get the facts straight! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## TJHUNTER (Oct 18, 2007)

hope not thats all i use


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

heard it from a friend of a friend. i think it's bs, and told him as much, but figured i'd float it out here and see if anyone had heard the rumor as well..

way too many muzzleloaders in use in zone 3 to ban them. not sure what i'd do as i haven't owned a slug gun in years..


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## Whats His Face (Mar 19, 2010)

*The law is and still states the same so far the NEW legislation to be voted upon states*


*(4) A PERSON HUNTING DEER DURING ANY FIREARM DEER SEASON IN
26 THE LIMITED FIREARMS AREA MAY ONLY USE THE FOLLOWING FIREARMS:
27 (A) A SHOTGUN WITH A SMOOTH OR RIFLED BARREL.​*3
04500'09 Final Page KHS​*(B) A .35 CALIBER OR LARGER PISTOL 1 CAPABLE OF HOLDING NO MORE
2 THAN 9 SHELLS AT 1 TIME IN THE BARREL AND MAGAZINE COMBINED AND
3 LOADED WITH STRAIGHT-WALLED CARTRIDGES.
4 (C) A MUZZLE-LOADING RIFLE OR BLACK-POWDER PISTOL LOADED WITH
5 BLACK-POWDER OR A COMMERCIALLY MANUFACTURED BLACK-POWDER
6 SUBSTITUTE.
7 (D) A .35 CALIBER OR LARGER RIFLE LOADED WITH STRAIGHT-WALLED
8 CARTRIDGES WITH A MINIMUM CASE LENGTH OF 1.16 INCHES AND A MAXIMUM
9 CASE LENGTH OF 1.80 INCHES.
10 (5) AS USED IN THIS SECTION, "LIMITED FIREARMS AREA" MEANS
11 THAT AREA SOUTH OF A LINE BEGINNING AT A POINT ON THE WISCONSIN12
MICHIGAN BOUNDARY LINE DIRECTLY WEST OF THE WEST END OF HIGHWAY M-
13 46; THEN EAST TO M-46 AND EAST ALONG M-46 TO ITS JUNCTION WITH
14 FREEWAY US-131; THEN SOUTH ALONG FREEWAY US-131 TO M-57; THEN EAST
15 ALONG M-57 TO ITS INTERSECTION WITH MONTCALM ROAD ON THE KENT16
MONTCALM COUNTY LINE; THEN SOUTH ALONG THAT COUNTY LINE AND THE
17 IONIA-KENT COUNTY LINE TO ITS INTERSECTION WITH M-44; THEN EAST
18 ALONG M-44 TO ITS INTERSECTION WITH M-66; THEN NORTH ALONG M-66 TO
19 ITS INTERSECTION WITH M-57; THEN EAST ALONG M-57 TO ITS
20 INTERSECTION WITH M-52; THEN NORTH ALONG M-52 TO ITS INTERSECTION
21 WITH M-46; THEN EAST ALONG M-46 TO ITS INTERSECTION WITH M-47; THEN
22 NORTH ALONG M-47 TO ITS JUNCTION WITH US-10; THEN EAST ALONG US-10
23 TO ITS JUNCTION WITH I-75; THEN NORTH ALONG I-75 AND US-23 TO ITS
24 JUNCTION WITH BEAVER ROAD, KAWKAWLIN TOWNSHIP, BAY COUNTY; THEN
25 EAST ALONG BEAVER ROAD TO SAGINAW BAY; THEN NORTH 50 DEGREES EAST​26 TO THE INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY WITH CANADA.

As this reades there is NO changes as to not using a LM in shotgun areas.
*


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## Atchison (Feb 18, 2009)

Might be someone complaining about the inlines that can shoot 200yds without issue is the only thing I could see someone trying to Ban, but I haven't heard of any changes...


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Atchison said:


> Might be someone complaining about the inlines that can shoot 200yds without issue is the only thing I could see someone trying to Ban, but I haven't heard of any changes...


If that were the case it would be a poor argument considering that todays quality slug guns in the right hands are 200 yard guns as well. (with multiple shot capability to boot for those that have the rabbit hunting mentality) If they are going to ban inline MZ's, they better ban high velocity shotgun sabots in the shotgun zone as well. 

I highly doubt either will happen, and will be very happy when we can use rifles chambered in handgun cartridges in the shotgun zone.

Good to see your still around RZ!


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## hunt-n-fool (Oct 10, 2006)

I wouldnt agree with everything written on this post.

I, with the assistance of rep Brian Calley introduced his first bill to allow smokeless muzzleloaders in the Lower P. during season, the only people to voice anyword against it was the *DNR representative *!

It never made it out of committee, they claimed it would be unsafe(the DNR)

Horsepuckey to the brass in the DNR.


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## 8iowa (Jan 28, 2008)

Item #7 in "Whats his face's" post above is interesting; allowing cartridges at least 35 caliber with a case length max of 1.8". 

I think this is a trend in other states as well. A good question now is; "Why would someone hunt with an in-line muzzleloader, when powerful smokeless cartridges are now legal?"


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## UNREEL (Jun 8, 2007)

Swamp Monster said:


> and will be very happy when we can use rifles chambered in handgun cartridges in the shotgun zone.
> 
> Good to see your still around RZ!


 
As will I...

Excellent statement...


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## Niles Coyote (Jul 22, 2009)

Whats His Face said:


> ​*7 (D) A .35 CALIBER OR LARGER RIFLE LOADED WITH STRAIGHT-WALLED*
> *8 CARTRIDGES WITH A MINIMUM CASE LENGTH OF 1.16 INCHES AND A MAXIMUM*
> *9 CASE LENGTH OF 1.80 INCHES.*​*As this reades there is NO changes as to not using a LM in shotgun areas.*


Has this been approved? Or just proposed?

Where did you find this? 

I checked the DNR site and this is not in it, as it reads;

*All Firearm Deer Seasons - Shotgun Zone

In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from November 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a bow and arrow. Crossbows are legal to use by a person 12 years of age or older during the Nov. 15-30 firearm deer season. Legal firearms are as follows

>A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge

>A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.

>A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.

Exception: See Muzzleloading Deer Seasons above for restrictions during this season. From Nov. 15-30, .22 caliber or smaller rimfire rifles and handguns may be used to kill raccoon while hunting raccoons with dogs between the hours of 7 p.m. and 6 a.m.*


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

8iowa said:


> Item #7 in "Whats his face's" post above is interesting; allowing cartridges at least 35 caliber with a case length max of 1.8".
> 
> I think this is a trend in other states as well. A good question now is; "Why would someone hunt with an in-line muzzleloader, when powerful smokeless cartridges are now legal?"


The key is "straight walled" cartrdiges with a max of only 1.8". This means typically revolver cartridges. These cartridges are in all but a couple case less powerful and have less range capability than your average slug gun and inline muzzleloader. I think the .460 and .500 S&W are to long but maybe not. Those two can be loaded pretty stout but still not any where close to centerfire rifle cartridge capability. 

Lots of confusion out there regarding the effectiveness of certain weapons thats for sure....and probably this lack on knowledge will doom this legislation. 
The folks in Indiana understand it however as they have recently passed similar legislation.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

Swamp Monster said:


> If that were the case it would be a poor argument considering that todays quality slug guns in the right hands are 200 yard guns as well. (with multiple shot capability to boot for those that have the rabbit hunting mentality) If they are going to ban inline MZ's, they better ban high velocity shotgun sabots in the shotgun zone as well.
> 
> I highly doubt either will happen, and will be very happy when we can use rifles chambered in handgun cartridges in the shotgun zone.
> 
> Good to see your still around RZ!


i doubt it will happen as well. the friend that told me said his CPL instructor heard it at an NRA presentation.

yeah, swamp, still around from time to time, but long past my days of trying to convince anyone of anything..;-) too much hunting and fishing to do..



hunt-n-fool said:


> I wouldnt agree with everything written on this post.
> 
> I, with the assistance of rep Brian Calley introduced his first bill to allow smokeless muzzleloaders in the Lower P. during season, the only people to voice anyword against it was the *DNR representative *!
> 
> ...


i testified at that committee hearing in favor of HB 4554. as i remember it, the DNR wasn't the only one in opposition - the MUCC testified in opposition as well. of course, the DNR's real beef was that of domain - they felt that the legislature was encroaching on their role of "regulating game and the taking of game". they aren't going to support it if its not their idea and their effort, regardless. now the MUCC - well, they just want to limit hunting options in the woods during muzzleloader season. but the genie is already out of that bottle, and he ain't going back in.. fighting it is counter-productive.

i love my deer hunting and spend a ton of time in the fall doing it.. but the past couple of years have showed me that chasing game in other states, and hunting birds and such in michigan can make for a whole lot less contention and angst come fall.. we michigan deer hunters ruin it for ourselves..


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

The straight wall pistol cartridges in rifles was shot down (No pun intended). The DNR spoke against this and said it would be too hard to enforce. The bill is dead an no longer slated for discussion.

Skinner


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Skinner 2 said:


> The straight wall pistol cartridges in rifles was shot down (No pun intended). The DNR spoke against this and said it would be too hard to enforce. The bill is dead an no longer slated for discussion.
> 
> Skinner


To hard to enforce? I guess they thought they needed an excuse. It would be far easier to enforce than smokeless/non-smokeless in muzzleloaders and easier to enforce than the stupid speed limit on crossbows. 
Oh, well. Like others, I get less and less interested in deer hunting in Michigan every year. Lucky for me I live a few miles from Indiana!


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

Swamp Monster said:


> The key is "straight walled" cartrdiges with a max of only 1.8". This means typically revolver cartridges. These cartridges are in all but a couple case less powerful and have less range capability than your average slug gun and inline muzzleloader. I think the .460 and .500 S&W are to long but maybe not. Those two can be loaded pretty stout but still not any where close to centerfire rifle cartridge capability.
> 
> Lots of confusion out there regarding the effectiveness of certain weapons thats for sure....and probably this lack on knowledge will doom this legislation.
> The folks in Indiana understand it however as they have recently passed similar legislation.



It says a minimum CASE LENGTH of 1.16", which would be a .38 Special, and a maximum CASE LENGTH of 1.80", which would be a .460 S&W.

If my information is right it would also include, but not be limited to these popular calibers as well as several more less known. If any of this case length information is wrong, please correct.

.38 Special = 1.16"
.357 Mag = 1.29"
.357 Max = 1.59"
.41 Rem Mag = 1.28"
.44 Special = 1.16"
.44 Rem Mag = 1.29"
.445 Super Mag = 1.59"
.45 Colt = 1.29"
.454 Casull Mag = 1.383"
.460 S&W Mag = 1.80"
.480 Ruger = 1.278"
.500 S&W Mag = 1.60"

It would not include these rifle calibers. Some cases could be slightly tapered although having straight walls with no bottle-neck, no telling where they would draw that line if this ever gets adopted?

.444 Marlin = 2.250"
.45-70 Govt. = 2.105'
.450 Marlin = 2.10"

[EDIT]
I guess I could have saved some time typing, had I noticed there was a second page. Oops!


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

It's a dead issue. I
was wanting this to pass so I or my son could again hunt with a Ruger .44mag carbine as I did when I hunted the UP. I asked the question about two weeks ago to find the status and was told it was dead.

Swamp didn't make sense to me either!

Skinner


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

It's too bad, these would have been some great options for getting young hunters into the sport versus a 20ga/12ga slug.

You could also hand load these calibers for pennies, compared to purchasing saboted slugs.


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