# Crackin Tail



## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Bobby, you're a genius. mac


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Wasn't Bob Whele that also put a coyotte pup in with his pointer pups? It's tail was painted orange also. Funny even with a coyotte they worry about the tail the farthest part of a dog that finds birds!!!


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Bobby said:


> And you could ride the mule and shoot from the mule. Wouldn't matter the range of the mule, you would always be there.


A car drives up to a farmer's house, a man gets out, knocks on the door, and the farmer opens it. 
"A friend told me you have a mule that points quail", said the stranger, "is that true"?? "Sure is", said the farmer, "would you like to see him work?" 
The strangers said, "Sure". Soon they were walking through a field, when the mule suddenly stopped and struck a beautiful point. The farmer walks ahead of the mule and scares up a big covey of quail. 
This goes on a half dozen more times...the mule points...the farmer scares up the covey. Finally, the stranger says, "That's enough, I've got to have that mule". 
"He ain't for sale", said the farmer. I'll give you $50,000.00 for him", said the stranger. Well, the farmer couldn't refuse such a big offer, so he sold him. The next night, the farmer's phone rang...it was the stranger. 
"What the hell's wrong with this dammed mule you sold me?", he screamed..."all he's done all day is stand belly deep in my pond"!! 
"Well", said the farmer, "I guess I should'a told you......he'd rather fish than hunt."


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Scott Berg*  
_Any discussion about selection is a good one. The question of natural selection is interesting in itself. Does natural selection in dogs select for characteristics that best promote the traits that bird hunters need to be effective? I will be interested to hear opinions on natural selection vs the selection that is done via competition. _




milmo1 said:


> How is selection considered "natural" in a domesticated animal?
> 
> Not trying to be a smartozz, I enjoy these debates even though I do not trial. Carry on!


Milo,

I was actually asking the same question but did it poorly. Mac had made the comparison of wild animals and my question was similar to your question. I was asking if natural selection was a good comparison given we select on very specific triats for hunting dogs. Those traits and their functions are likely different than those selected naturally.

SRB


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Grange said:


> My setter has a high crackin tail.


 
See? I did misunderstand. I would consider that a high cracking tail, just like the photo of Grush's pointer. It follows a complete spectrum, not just 12 o' clock.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike McDonald said:


> Scott, I know you've suffered with some breed confusion, Setter, Pointer, Springer, Lab, maybe a coyote or wolf would help.
> So if a dog runs through the woods with a tail as is demonstrated by Kate's picture or as Bobby so aptly describes doesn't that subject the tail to more injuries. If it were carried at 9 o'clock it is protected to some extent by the body from some of the trauma. After all that's why they make the big guys block for the small guys. And if that is the case isn't this preference adding additional risk to an already risky job. So if my theorem is correct that a high tail carriage predisposes a dog to trauma, is the 12 o'clock crackin tail choice best for the dog and or best for the owner. mac


 
Who really cares, It looks cool.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

How about breeding a dog to run with its head in its a&% to protect its nose from getting all scratched up? :lol:

Just kidding, Mac, I understand what you're trying to get at, but I've seen plenty of 9 o'clock tails get bloodied up. In addition to running with them at 9 o'clock there is always going to be some side to side motion which exposes them to trauma in the cover.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

kek25 said:


> How about breeding a dog to run with its head in its a&% to protect its nose from getting all scratched up? :lol:
> 
> 
> Keith I once owned a pointer that was born that way. It really effected his nose and his hearing.He couldn't find birds and he didn't listen worth a shxx. I never could get him to pull it out. Funny thing is Shady deals out in missery bought him and now he is the greatest dog to hit the ground.:lol:


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

crosswind said:


> kek25 said:
> 
> 
> > How about breeding a dog to run with its head in its a&% to protect its nose from getting all scratched up? :lol:
> ...


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Ouch! Maybe you've got him back in that new pup. I think I remember you saying on here he goes back to Branscum's Nickel, didn't you? The least they could have done was called him Scott's Danny Boy. :lol:


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## Lloydboy (Jan 25, 2008)

Mac - Maybe you can start a new practice specializing in surgical modify their tails so that way they crackin at 12 o'clock all the time! 

I think you make your millions that way!


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

You know I think I'll stop asking what I think are legitimate questions and wait for someone's dog to get sick and then chime in with b+ll s+it answers. That seems to be a common tactic on the board. mac


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Probably don't need to point this out to you, Mac, but there is a difference between having a little humor mixed in with a thread about 12 o'clock tails and bs'ing in response to something a little more serious like a sick dog. I have to believe your above that; at least that's what I would hope.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

in my expert opinion. the best way to protect a tail from trauma is to dock it


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

kek25 said:


> Probably don't need to point this out to you, Mac, but there is a difference between having a little humor mixed in with a thread about 12 o'clock tails and bs'ing in response to something a little more serious like a sick dog. I have to believe your above that; at least that's what I would hope.


So who gets to decide serious? I was serious about the evolution of canines and the consequences of modifying that phenotype to our personal standards. I think that's serious. But I guess it's not. However anyone's dog with a limp or diarrhea needs to be treated with the utmost care. In the end aren't the genetic choices that we are making for many breeds more important and serious than one dog with an issue? mac


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

chewy said:


> in my expert opinion. the best way to protect a tail from trauma is to dock it


Why does the long tail breeds not do this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B Peters (Jun 10, 2006)

The basis of this question is very good.The biggest problem that I see with trying to get a real answer is that ever since we domesticated dogs man has been breeding for a look or function that they want. So natural selection went out the window years ago.Now as some others pointed out what function does a high tail support that would be a very good info and I agree with Scott B get with the sled dog people and see if it is even something that they look at [I don't know] but most sled dogs that I have seen do have a high tail.I do know that it is something that I like to see.In my dogs it appears that when thier tails are high and crackin that they are really enjoying what they are doing I have seen a lot of dogs with low tails when running that just didn't look like they were enjoying themselves as much which in my opion is one of the reasons trial people like to see the high tail.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Mike McDonald said:


> So who gets to decide serious? I was serious about the evolution of canines and the consequences of modifying that phenotype to our personal standards. I think that's serious. But I guess it's not. However anyone's dog with a limp or diarrhea needs to be treated with the utmost care. In the end aren't the genetic choices that we are making for many breeds more important and serious than one dog with an issue? mac


Hubris seems to run thick in the field trial world at times.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

N M Mechanical said:


> Why does the long tail breeds not do this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


well if u have a pointer with a 12 o'clock tail that is perfectly straight and thin. it's a beautiful thing to see on point u wouldn't want to dock it.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> well if u have a pointer with a 12 o'clock tail that is perfectly straight and thin. it's a beautiful thing to see on point u wouldn't want to dock it.


Which, the tail or the exposed brown eye? :lol:


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

well I guess for someone like u you may like the brown eye and bag view but I'm not into that kind of thing 
lol


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

As Brent mentioned, I think that it's a good question, and like a ton of dog questions, it'll be tough to get an opinion that isn't at least somewhat tainted by the types of dogs owned or preferred. I'm guilty of that bias as well.

As you know, I've had my own issues with a high happy tail (don't ever wrap a bloody tail in non-breathable tape). However, I've been around a lot of these dogs over the past few years and I think that this issue, like many, may be a matter of degree, and from a big picture perspective, is maybe a little-inflated, especially when contrasted with the good things that the breeders have done. More specifically, I'm speaking to the fact that we've created conformationally-sound animals who are some of the top athletes on the planet. I think that's something that is tough to find in the vast majority of breeds/lines out there.

Contrast this with some of the true abominations in the canine world. For example, I was staying at East Bay for a Summer trial and ran into a Lady with one of the toy breeds. Unfortunately, breeders have bred these dogs for their abnormally huge eyes, which sometimes pop-out with minimal trauma/physical exertion. Sadly, this dog had lost both of it's eyes for this reason. Personally, I'd rather own a high-tailed, trial-bred dog and deal with an occasional bloody tail tip.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

It has never been my intention to take the illness of a pet in anything but a serious manner. Ask anybody that knows me personally or that brings their pet to my practice. Nor is it my intent to bash field trials or the people that participate in them. I personally enjoy the events and the people and am looking for a dog that I can compete with. I do however spend the significant part of my life dealing with illness and trauma, an if it is sometimes avoidable by selecting for healthier traits what's wrong with that. or at least a discussion of what might or might not be healthier. Frankly, again I started this topic not because I knew I was right, but because I was interested in the opinion of others on this topic. BTW competitive sled dogs run with flat tails. The upright tail of Siberian Huskys and Malamutes don't represent competitive dogs usually referred to as alaskan huskys or just sled dogs. mac


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

We need to hit the reset button guys/gals. This has been a great forum with great people. This format should initiate debate and the form of debate on this site has always been fun and interesting. It would be great if the ugliness of the past month could influence some constructive changes with my own at the top of the list. 

Great topic Mac!

SRB


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## Quig7557 (Dec 31, 2008)

I have two gordons. The female has a cracking tail, but it's lower than her back. No one has ever doubted she loves to hunt and has a ton of drive and desire. While I never trialed her, and can't say she could have ever won, it is sad to think that a dog that doesn't possess a twelve oclock tail can't win a trial.

My male had trouble with deer. When he would run through the woods his tail was low and straight, reminded me of a German sheperd. It was terrible and I can see why a cracking tail, and a higher one pleases the eye of a judge and a hunter.

Since he has had the cure put to him, his tail is cracking, at least till he gets fatigued. I would suppose a judge would also be able to tell if a dog has better stamina during a trial from that so maybe its another reason for the cracking tail, and the higher the more apt he is to get seen.


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## R. Ford (Nov 23, 2010)

IMO, a high 'crackin' tail is a conformation issue, very similar to a 'high headed' dog, or a straight back, or a 'high steppin' front end. Very few of these details influence the effectiveness or performance of a working bird dog. 
I'm glad field trials put at least some emphasis on high heads and tails as I also prefer them. Going a step further, I wish field trials put even more emphasis on good conformation as they select their winners. As an individual who requires good conformation along with good field abilities, it would be nice if more field trial standouts offered both.


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## GamebirdPreserve (Nov 21, 2006)

Scott Berg said:


> We need to hit the reset button guys/gals. This has been a great forum with great people. This format should initiate debate and the form of debate on this site has always been fun and interesting. It would be great if the ugliness of the past month could influence some constructive changes with my own at the top of the list.
> 
> Great topic Mac!
> 
> SRB


Scott,

*Glad to hear!* 

I couldn't agree with you more about this great forum.

I do enjoy reading the posts and respect everyone's opinion on the many various Bird Dog topics. I do think we need to try to keep it both fun and interesting and not take the comments personally ... but with a grain of salt. It is not always easy. The sarcasm and humor are fun, but as with anything too much is not good and hurt feelings are uncalled for. People with decades of experience and highly respectable hard earned reputations in their fields of expertise have nothing to worry about. It is easy to feel personally attacked, and it is sometimes hard to not take comments/criticism to heart. The truth is that your long earned reputations will not be negatively affected by a few "OFF" comments. The hundreds/thousands of others who really know and respect you for what you really are will outweigh the negative. Your professional business will not suffer from the small amount of negativity and Lord knows you will NEVER make everyone happy! Keep up the good work everyone. 

Each and every member has something good to contribute to the forum ... and it would be terrible if members were too intimidated to participate. There is no such thing as a stupid question! 

*Thanks to both you and Mac for sharing in the forums - this forum would not be the same without either of you. *

Agreed, good thread, Mac!

Unfortunately, I cannot comment on the HIGH TAIL issue ... we own 8 GSPs.


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## HankVIII (Mar 23, 2010)

Has anyone personally not bred a dog, or know of a dog not being bred because of it hurting it's tail more than normal? 

Do we have breeds with docked tails because of consistent problems keeping their long tails healthy?

Would a high tail eventually fall by the wayside if it affected the dogs performance?

Seth


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

HankVIII said:


> Has anyone personally not bred a dog, or know of a dog not being bred because of it hurting it's tail more than normal?
> 
> Do we have breeds with docked tails because of consistent problems keeping their long tails healthy?
> 
> ...


I guess the question would be how many dogs get tail trauma from hunting? 
Never heard of it but that doesnt mean that it doesnt happen.
My guess is its non existent or very rare.. A little blood isnt that big of a deal.. 
I have heard of not breeding because they run with a low tail. but thats a style thing. 

My opinion is tails are docked for looks.. I am ok with that...


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i think a dog that is really tearing up the ground will run with a lower tail. keeping the tail up requires muscles that can be used for speed.

i've seen a cold wet day lower the tail when running but not on point


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

All of my dogs run flat out with a level to low tail. The one that looks like a board when he runs (from head to tail he flattens out and doesn't rock back and forth at all) is the fastest and most easily able to turn on a dime at speed. 

That said, I've never seen tail injuries in my dogs due to them cracking their tails up at near 12 o'clock. The one who does get tail injuries ususally does so once he's picked up bird scent, something that I can tell from the somewhat low and squirly looking tail he gets until he establishes point, then up it goes. It's when his tail is low and wagging that it gets beat up and bloody.

The bleeding usually stops and you would never know it happened by the time we get home.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

chewy said:


> I guess the question would be how many dogs get tail trauma from hunting?
> ...


One has broken her tail 3 times, 2 times hunting, once in a trial. She carries it lower than "normal" for a coverdog but it's crackin fast and hard.

Another has broken her tail 4 times, 2 times hunting, one time in a car door (on the drive to a trial before I had a box) and the first time when I rolled over it with the office chair. Probably posting something on this dang site. She carries it high and it cracks but not at the frequency of the dog above.

One has never broken his tail. He doesn't crack it at all but it's sort of an arched 12 O'clock point. Gordon setter.

The young one will probably break one in due time. He carries it high and crackin'. 

I think the trauma comes when running thru tight aspen or alder cover for an extended period. Tight cover and plenty of contact. Chance of contact on every crack.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

Bobby said:


> One has broken her tail 3 times, 2 times hunting, once in a trial. She carries it lower than "normal" for a coverdog but it's crackin fast and hard.
> 
> Another has broken her tail 4 times, 2 times hunting, one time in a car door (on the drive to a trial before I had a box) and the first time when I rolled over it with the office chair. Probably posting something on this dang site. She carries it high and it cracks but not at the frequency of the dog above.
> 
> ...


 
My dogs broke their tail 2 days after they were born and it never grew back


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I brought a pointer back from Ky. The only time that dogs tail wasn't banging the box it was a sleep. I've seen both of this dog parents run and have never seen them or the deby not come back with a boodly tail. I thing dog more tightly breed pass this on as a trate.


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## Bear Creek (Feb 9, 2003)

dogwhistle said:


> i think a dog that is really tearing up the ground will run with a lower tail. keeping the tail up requires muscles that can be used for speed.


I don't buy this for a minute. I've had Pointers for years some run with a 11 o'clock tail and some with a 9 o'clock tail and where there tail was when running had nothing to do with their speed in the field.

I have not read all 5 pages of this thread but I can tell you that at least with Pointers a cracking tail might look good in the field but its nothing but a bloody mess at the end of the day, especially in the woods. I have a female now that runs with a 9 o'clock tail but it cracks so hard that by the end of the day she has blood from her shoulder to her butt on both sides!:rant: Its a mess. I love to see a dog Point with a 12 o'clock tail but could care less about the crack'n tail when they run, it causes nothing but headaches for me. I have never owned Setters but it seems to be much less of an issue with them and I think its because they have so much more hair on the tail that it protects it from some of the damage. Just my observation from many years of running Pointers.

BC


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## Grange (Jan 25, 2010)

My setter has a high crackin tail she had a bloody tail at the tip in each of her first two grouse seasons however her tail didn't get bloody until December. She had probably more than 35 days in the grouse woods up to that point.


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