# Trainer availability



## lakergrad (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm looking for a local trainer to continue working with my GSP. She was up at Top Gun Kennels last year for the summer and she's ready to keep moving forward. I'm not interested in field trialing, as I am mostly a grouse hunter. She's my fifth GSP, so I'm not new to the "world" of bird dogs. 

I'm located in the Monroe area, will be very select on trainers, and am looking for her to probably be somewhere through mid-September. She's part of my family, so I'm looking for someone to understand that as well.

I'm a bit concerned with actual training time too and would like to find someone who will commit to a good regimen. With the hot summer, I understand it's difficult to do much of anything during the heat of the day, but I don't want to pay to have her sitting in a kennel for days at a time either. I know there are a lot of good trainers out there, and they have ways to still train *safely* during this time of year.

Looking for recommendations or interested trainers..... 

Thx,
Patrick


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

How old is the dog? What are looking to have accomplished?


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## lakergrad (Aug 2, 2002)

She just turned two. She spent last summer in training on obedience, whoa introduction, bird/gun exposure etc. (May through August). I've had her on a whoa barrel through the winter and spring. She's absolutely bird crazy and is now ready for some advanced whoa training, bird exposure, retrieving. Those are my primary concerns. I just don't have access to the land or birds to do a good job myself.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Modaka Kennel @ 231-750-7002 in New Era
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Bruce Minard is one of the very few who actually does a hunk of his training on grouse, but he may be maxed-out for this Summer--probably worth a try anyway:
http://www.hifivekennels.com/


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## Aspen Woods (Jun 23, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about whether the trainer is working trial dogs. Ask any trainer for referrals from gun dogs he has trained!!! Ask him to evaluate your dog and tell you what he thinks he will be able to get done. If you want a good grouse dog, put it with someone who has lots of GREAT grouse cover in their back yard. With gas prices they way they are your dog will have more opportunity to have wild bird contact. If a trainer is faced with traveling to get to good cover it might or might not happen. If you want someone to train your dog on quail, find someone close by you so you can be apart of the training. I am a little bias but I think you should GO visit and talk to Bruce Minard. He LIVES and TRAINS in GREAT cover! He has lots of satisfied gun dog clients and he has some of the most consistant performing trial dogs. Good luck, its tough sending our pets away for an extending time.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Modaka Vance Butler or Bruce Minard are the 2 guys I know and would send dogs too. I've worked with Vance for the last three years with 2 shorthairs and a pointer. Good cover in his backyard and down the road. Wild birds, pen birds you name he's got it. Same as Bruce. Either way your dog is going to come back better than sitting on a couch all summer. lol


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## lakergrad (Aug 2, 2002)

Thanks for the input. I did try Bruce, but he's filled up. Have a couple other leads, but I'll check with Vance too. I've dabbled in NSTRA a bit, but my heart is in the grouse woods, and without my own training grounds, it's hard to keep any competitive edge for field trialing. 

And yes, anything is better than the "summer couch", lol.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

I'd call Scott townsend at crosswind kennel or Andy zoll at cedar creek down in belleview Ohio.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Have had my dog with Bruce M. and am 100% satisfied but don't forget Scott Townsend and Nick Miller, both NSTRA dominant guys.


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## lakergrad (Aug 2, 2002)

I know Scott is a very good trainer and have sent him a message. He may be filled up now or out of town on the circuit. 

Thanks again for all of the great recommendations. I'm sure the trainers would thank you as well!


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

slammer said:


> I'd call Scott townsend at crosswind kennel or Andy zoll at cedar creek down in belleview Ohio.




Not to mention, you'd only be 30 minutes away from the dog to watch the progress.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Have had my dog with Bruce M. and am 100% satisfied but don't forget Scott Townsend and Nick Miller, both NSTRA dominant guys.


Nick Miller has done pretty good in cover dog trials. Wonder how he does it training in Coldwater on NSTRA grounds with quail. You Sir need a dog trainer that will teach your dog the tools he needs to do his job. Its up to you after that to make him into the bird dog you want him to be. If you want to hunt pheasants do you send your dog to SD to get trained. Don't bye the hipe you have to Grouse to train a Grouse dog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

junebug said:


> Nick Miller has done pretty good in cover dog trials. Wonder how he does it training in Coldwater on NSTRA grounds with quail. You Sir need a dog trainer that will teach your dog the tools he needs to do his job. Its up to you after that to make him into the bird dog you want him to be. If you want to hunt pheasants do you send your dog to SD to get trained. Don't bye the hipe you have to Grouse to train a Grouse dog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know and respect both mentioned trainers, but their grouse trial win record is really not comparable...


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

FindTheBird said:


> I know and respect both mentioned trainers, but their grouse trial win record is really not comparable...


What does that matter? Does Bruce have a NSTRA record that is comparable.....


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Ericgmci said:


> What does that matter?


I dont think it does even more so when he is full. What about Justin McGrail? Does any one use him?


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

junebug said:


> Nick Miller has done pretty good in cover dog trials. Wonder how he does it training in Coldwater on NSTRA grounds with quail. You Sir need a dog trainer that will teach your dog the tools he needs to do his job. Its up to you after that to make him into the bird dog you want him to be. If you want to hunt pheasants do you send your dog to SD to get trained.
> 
> Don't bye the hipe you have to Grouse to train a Grouse dog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Really?


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Merimac said:


> I dont think it does even more so when he is full. What about Justin McGrail? Does any one use him?


Justin does an awesome job and is a great guy. His new facility is coming along great. . .really nice set up.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

junebug said:


> Nick Miller has done pretty good in cover dog trials. Wonder how he does it training in Coldwater on NSTRA grounds with quail. You Sir need a dog trainer that will teach your dog the tools he needs to do his job. Its up to you after that to make him into the bird dog you want him to be. If you want to hunt pheasants do you send your dog to SD to get trained. Don't bye the hipe you have to Grouse to train a Grouse dog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I couldn't disagree with you more. I'm not saying those guys can't and don't do a good job. I am saying that it takes wild birds of your choice to polish the dog off.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

It does take wild birds to polish him. That's the job of the owner after his dog returns from the trainer that trained the dog to whoa,come and to turn to whistle. Notice I didn't say teach him to point because they should be born with that. I don't know what Bruse charges a month but you can bet he's not hunting any dog for free.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

I wish I had some turds to throw in this post but I don't. damn. 

apparently the only grouse ever killed in Michigan were shot over a dog trained by a person who runs grouse trials. if a trainer chooses to run a different venue any dog he trains will not point grouse. 

interesting concept. pick Em up


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

Merimac said:


> I dont think it does even more so when he is full. What about Justin McGrail? Does any one use him?


I've used Justin many times over the years. I consider him one of the best in the region. I like his business model in terms of dogs on the string, time devoted, and actual work with the dogs.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

chewy said:


> I wish I had some turds to throw in this post but I don't. damn.
> 
> apparently the only grouse ever killed in Michigan were shot over a dog trained by a person who runs grouse trials. if a trainer chooses to run a different venue any dog he trains will not point grouse.
> 
> interesting concept. pick Em up


No, I don't think that is even close to true. I just think Grouse dogs are trained differently than NASTRA dogs. Just my observation and yes I've worked with a myriad of different trainers.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

I think your theory on dog training differences is a poor judgement. everyone can have opinions but I think u are misguided. 

cab you tell me the differences please?


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Dave Medema said:


> I've used Justin many times over the years. I consider him one of the best in the region. I like his business model in terms of dogs on the string, time devoted, and actual work with the dogs.


Very well put Dave, I couldn't agree more.

BTW, I called Justin and although the website is not up and running yet, here is his website address that contains his cell #. 

http://blackcreektraining.com/


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

BIGSP said:


> No, I don't think that is even close to true. I just think Grouse dogs are trained differently than NASTRA dogs. Just my observation and yes I've worked with a myriad of different trainers.


 
I run every single one of my pointing dogs in "NSTRA", train with "NSTRA" trainers, and train on planted birds. I shoot just as many, if not more grouse than the "cover dog" folks do/would. The only difference, my dogs do not stand there while the bird flies off waiting for the cap pistol. 

It gets real old listening to people talk about shoot to retrieve dogs being sub-par to the almighty cover dogs.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

like I said can the person who said that ease explain the difference

if they make that statement they must know why they are so much different. 

I know that a dog needs to know at the minimum to whoa and to handle. 

when on birds they need to point at first scent. 

any smart dog will figure out how to hunt different covers. 

the difference between nstra and cover dog is the gun used and one has to retrieve. I think the average hunter wants his dog to retrieve what they shoot. the average hunter can care less if their dog is steady to wing and shot. they want the dog to find birds and hold point long enough to give them a shot. 

waiting on an answer to the difference that make it so only a cover dog trainer or grouse dog trainer can train a dog and anyone who plays in a different venue and trains a dog the dog will not be capable of pointing a grouse.

with that logic if I plan to hunt pheasant at a preserve or wild I should never ever send my dog to a "grouse dog trainer". my dog will not be capable of hunting pheasants.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Firemedic said:


> It gets real old listening to people talk about shoot to retrieve dogs being sub-par to the almighty cover dogs.


The funny thing is, nobody said that in this thread...ever.

A few guys suggested this _grouse _hunter employ a dog trainer who trains on _grouse _to work with his 2 year old dog. 
What's wrong with that? 

If he wants to stay local, there were plenty of guys listed to work with him down here. 

It seems you guys are a touch sensitive about this... 
I'm sure you hear the NSTRA/cover dog thing enough, but I think you dreampt it up in this thread.


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

BradU20 said:


> The funny thing is, nobody said that in this thread...ever.


Brad, I didn't say it was in this thread.......yet


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

brad 

post 63. post 19.

that's what I was talking about. 

u could read what those say as implied sub par stuff 

either way it's a bold statement to say about a "grouse dog trainer" and I can't wait to hear the answer to my questions.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

BradU20 said:


> junebug,
> 
> I'm going to roll the dice here and make a few guesses.
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> ...


 What does any of those three questions have to do with the narrow minds of the cover dog people?


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

BradU20 said:


> junebug,
> 
> I'm going to roll the dice here and make a few guesses.
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> ...





junebug said:


> What does any of those three questions have to do with the narrow minds of the cover dog people?


 But I will answer them. Yes. Yes. No I HAVE SETTERS.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

chewy said:


> like I said can the person who said that ease explain the difference
> 
> if they make that statement they must know why they are so much different.
> 
> ...


 The difference is the cover dogs run through the woods past more birds then they will ever point. The handler can't see the work they are doing and they have no idea what the dog is doing until they get eyes on him.They assume the bird flew on his own, but in reallity the dog crowded the bird. NSTRA dogs can't get away with anything because everybody can see what they are doing and you will get penalized for substandard dog work.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

I am sure glad you found the MS upland forum JB. It gets really slow around here this time of year. Your sophomoric attitude is sure to liven things up. Thanks in advance for the entertainment that is sure to follow.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

wow junebug must be my twin lol


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

chewy said:


> wow junebug must be my twin lol


U guys do look like each other!


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

Ericgmci said:


> U guys do look like each other!


LOL...tru dat
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

chewy said:


> brad
> post 63. post 19.
> that's what I was talking about.
> u could read what those say as implied sub par stuff
> ...


BIGSP said "grouse _hunting* _dogs are trained differently then NSTRA dogs." True of False?
*(I inserted hunting, we are talking about a guy who said he's a grouse hunter, not a cover dog trialer)



junebug said:


> What does any of those three questions have to do with the narrow minds of the cover dog people?


Doesn't say anything about cover dog people, but it is always good to know the background of guys I converse with on this site.



junebug said:


> But I will answer them. Yes. Yes. No I HAVE SETTERS.


Darn, 2 for 3 isn't bad. 
Who are your setters out of?



junebug said:


> The difference is the cover dogs run through the woods past more birds then they will ever point. The handler can't see the work they are doing and they have no idea what the dog is doing until they get eyes on him.They assume the bird flew on his own, but in reality the dog crowded the bird. NSTRA dogs can't get away with anything because everybody can see what they are doing and you will get penalized for substandard dog work.


I'll just go ahead and assume you stuck this spoon in the pot to keep things from stickin'.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

brad they are not trained differently. how many nstra dogs have u trained? 

they are not trained differently. point bird on first scent. 

how does Tom v. run cover dog when he does or did nstra? 

what is different about the training? I keep asking and not getting answers.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

UOTE=CLASSIC POINTE;3692094]Nick, you know someboby up north is going to want a dog to hunt buzzards, now that you have produced a dog to hunt all those other birds. LMAO!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Hey Junebug maybe I should breed Jester to Lady - Jester points porkies and lady pointed a woodie, as Nick would say "WHAT A BIRD DOG"[/QUOTE]

Well if Bruce M would train it everybody up north would want one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

5 years and I finally used the "ignore" feature. 

Good bye JB.


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## Birdsonthebrain (Nov 3, 2009)

How does that work??? sound like something I may find useful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

Birdsonthebrain said:


> How does that work??? sound like something I may find useful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have the same question. Plus, sophmoric is way to high of an IQ?


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

RecurveRx said:


> 5 years and I finally used the "ignore" feature.
> 
> Good bye JB.


Glad you and your dictionary are gone. I win, next.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Shotgun Kennel said:


> I have the same question. Plus, sophmoric is way to high of an IQ?


You are right Shotgun. RecurveRx brought that word in to this thread, he must have a dictionary up his *ss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fish fanatic jr. (Feb 18, 2004)

junebug said:


> Glad you and your dictionary are gone. I win, next.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What exactly did you win? being the biggest tool on the forum congrats you are the victor.


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> No, I don't think that is even close to true. I just think Grouse dogs are trained differently than NASTRA dogs. Just my observation and yes I've worked with a myriad of different trainers.


 
I am interested to hear the names of the specific "NSTRA" (there is only one A) trainers you have worked with. I dont mean to be pointed, but I do think folks should be accountable for things they say. You made the claim, so, lets hear it.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

fish fanatic jr. said:


> What exactly did you win? being the biggest tool on the forum congrats you are the victor.


That's the best you got.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Back to my original post, the point I was trying to make was that you don't need to live in grouse country to train good bird dogs that can hunt grouse just fine. Mr. Miller is just one I know of. So if you are so narrow minded that you don't aggree with that, well then we now know the problem here. After all we are after the same thing, a better dog for breeding in the future. Whether its NSTRA, Coverdog, NBHA as long as it betters the dogs and the breed. There was a time when you could look in American Field and see the NSTRA trials listed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fish fanatic jr. (Feb 18, 2004)

junebug said:


> That's the best you got.
> QUOTE]
> 
> :lol::lol: nope just dont see the point of pissing contest on a internet forum.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Flash01 said:


> I am interested to hear the names of the specific "NSTRA" (there is only one A) trainers you have worked with. I dont mean to be pointed, but I do think folks should be accountable for things they say. You made the claim, so, lets hear it.


I'm not mentioning any names. The trainers I've used have all been good. Some were better at specific things than others. 

Again the foundation training is probably the same and yes a guy who doesn't live in grouse country can train a grouse dog. But, don't you want a trainer to be able to go out and prove his/her training on those birds?


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Birdsonthebrain said:


> How does that work??? sound like something I may find useful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In the Gray toolbar near the top of this page on the left side is "User CP" that is your control panel. Under the Settings and options list the last choice is *Edit Ignore list*, just add the screen name of poster(s) you choose to ignore.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

junebug said:


> There was a time when you could look in American Field and see the NSTRA trials listed.


Does the Field no longer recognize NSTRA as a viable field trial format?


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> I'm not mentioning any names. The trainers I've used have all been good. Some were better at specific things than others.
> 
> Again the foundation training is probably the same and yes a guy who doesn't live in grouse country can train a grouse dog. *But, don't you want a trainer to be able to go out and prove his/her training on those birds*?


I am not personally aware of any trainers that teach a dog to scent or find Grouse. Good breeding (and experience) does that, not trainers.

Basically you have stated a preference for using a trainer located near grouse woods and presented the reason for it as a real, fundamental difference in training programs. After some scrutiny it has come down to simply your preference. That is fine, but why make statements like...


BIGSP said:


> No, I don't think that is even close to true. I just think Grouse dogs are trained differently than NASTRA dogs. Just my observation and yes I've worked with a myriad of different trainers.


and then follow it up with "the training is probably the same" only after being called out on it.

By the way, I still challenge you to name the trainers (or at least one NSTRA trainer) you have used... don't rate them, just names. It really does point to your credibility. It should not be that big of a task to come up some given the "myriad of different trainers" you have used.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Flash01 said:


> I am not personally aware of any trainers that teach a dog to scent or find Grouse. Good breeding (and experience) does that, not trainers.
> 
> Basically you have stated a preference for using a trainer located near grouse woods and presented the reason for it as a real, fundamental difference in training programs. After some scrutiny it has come down to simply your preference. That is fine, but why make statements like...
> 
> ...


Quite honestly I don't give a crap what you think about my credibility. 

I think basic premise is probably the same for training. I just know I've seen a big difference in how my dogs were handled by 2 different trainers. One from grouse woods and one from nastra, and I've used a horseback trainer and a navhdva trainer. All were good and all would be used again for certain things.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

I don't think it matters one bit where the trainer lives. While my youngest has been with a trainer the only time he has been trained on wild birds has been out west on quail not grouse and he found one or grouse last fall. If the trainer is going to get what needs to be done who cares what game he plays or where he lives
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

N M Mechanical said:


> I don't think it matters one bit where the trainer lives. While my youngest has been with a trainer the only time he has been trained on wild birds has been out west on quail not grouse and he found one or grouse last fall. If the trainer is going to get what needs to be done who cares what game he plays or where he lives
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good point Nick. That was what i was trying to make a point of on the first page of this thread!!!!!!


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

If your end goal is to have a grouse dog then using a trainer that can run the dog in grouse country is a benefit. The dogs ground application can be evaluated only in the grouse woods and it's then when training money is best spent. 
Yes a lot can be accomplished in a training facility but seeing how the dog will open up on its own out of touch of its handler is a big deal. The trainer in grouse country can steer that dog to birdy places and teach it to stay forward, no yo-yo, no straight lines, no windshield wiper, no bird planting crutches, independance to seek game on its own.
That can only be accomplished in large unbroken coverts with wild birds.


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> Quite honestly I don't give a crap what you think about my credibility.
> 
> I think basic premise is probably the same for training. I just know I've seen a big difference in how my dogs were handled by 2 different trainers. One from grouse woods and one from nastra, and I've used a horseback trainer and a navhdva trainer. All were good and all would be used again for certain things.


 
Fair enough. 

I think there are a bunch of folks on this forum that now know not to "give a crap" about the "facts" you throw around.

I am sure there are bad "grouse woods trainers" as well as bad "NSTRA" trainers. The format you chose (or where you live) does not make you good or bad at dog training. Being good or bad at it does and you dont need grouse woods to determine that as a person deciding to hire a trainer.

(BTW, it's NSTRA not N*A*STRA - *N*ational *S*hoot to *R*e*T*rieve *A*ssociation)

Probably for another thread, but it has been my experience that jumping from one trainer to another causes more trouble than it fixes. I would strongly discourage a person from doing this. I would advise to find a trainer you like and stick with their program... if there are problems (and it's not uncommon to have problems) work through them with your trainer. If they cant fix it, fire them and find a new trainer, but keeping a "stable" full of trainers to work on specific issues is a disaster waiting to happen in my opinion.


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

BIGSP said:


> They're still wild birds.


But isn't it totally different cover?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> if putting your dog on grouse is soooooooo important than why do you send your dogs to arizona or Texas for the winter?


Given that dogs suck at generalizing I would think exposure to a variety of birds, wild or otherwise, in a variety of habitats can only be a good thing.

Besides, have you ever tried to run dogs on grouse in January and February? A hot buttered rum indoors sounds better to me in that weather.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

they aren't grouse. using your logic the dog will only now how to hunt in a desert so don't waste your money sending ur dogs there. 

u see the suggestion that in order for a dog to be used on grouse it has to be trained on grouse doesn't float. 

the same goes for planted birds I know where ur going with the last statement. if u know what ur doing and the dog has any intelligence the transfer from planted birds to grouse is almost transparent. sure the dog has to learn to hunt the right cover but the way he handles a bird is the same. no different than a dog that is in Arizona or Texas. a quail wild or planted or liberated is not a grouse. 

if I run my dog on prairie grouse will he be able to hunt the almighty ruffled grouse?


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

Has anybody told the dog this.that he is to run thru the timber and only hunt the good stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Simple truth right there. 
BTW, carry on all. This is fun stuff!


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> if I run my dog on prairie grouse will he be able to hunt the almighty ruffled grouse?


I'd say that depends. Lots of dogs are great quail dogs, but a number of those same dogs suck mud in the grouse woods. Whether that is breeding or training I don't know. But I tend to lean towards the camp arguing that experience on the quarry in question is a good thing. The earlier in life the better.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Given that dogs suck at generalizing I would think exposure to a variety of birds, wild or otherwise, in a variety of habitats can only be a good thing.
> 
> Besides, have you ever tried to run dogs on grouse in January and February? A hot buttered rum indoors sounds better to me in that weather.


my point is that it was said they have to train dogs on grouse only if u plan to hunt grouse and that no other way of training is good enough and that the training techniques are 180 degree different I'm paraphrasing 

so my point is then why send them down south on other birds? 

u see the argument to say u can only train dogs on grouse if u plan to hunt grouse holds no weight. or the trips down south would be non existent. 


and a prairie grouse has the word grouse in it. so it's the same bird 

it all boils down to can your dog learn the cover. is he smart enough to figure it out. can he hunt in a field as effective the woods.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Ericgmci said:


> ...i just really wanted to find out why people think they need grouse to train a bird dog and _why FindTheBird thought he needed to point out that Bruce had more wins than another guy_. You have all made interesting arguments to your posts, whether or not i agree with them or you agree with me, thanks for your time.


I saw this thread rapidly evolving into the old wild vs. planted bird controversy (turns-out I was right) and decided to avoid it since we all have beaten the topic to a bloody pulp over-and-over through the years.

Many took my poorly-articulated grouse wins post as a slight against Nick. For that I apologize. Nick is one of the true good guys of the bird dog game in this state, and every time we've spoken or done business together, he's been a true gentleman (his wife bakes-up a mean cookie too!). I've also recommended him as a trainer as his NSTRA success and success with gun dogs in general speaks for itself. If I'm reading the win records correctly, Nick's Jake and my Lady are likely the two front-runners for the MI dog of the year walking puppy, award--I'm very honored to be in the same company with such a fine gentleman and his exceptional pup--best of luck Nick!

Back to the post. First, keep in mind that it was in the context of a reply to a previous post. Also keep in mind that I've been a client of Bruce's for about six years and he's earned a great deal of respect from me during that time, both personally and professionally. For those of you who don't know, Bruce has had literally hundreds of grouse trial wins at every level in every grouse trial state including a ton of shooting dog (adult dog/broke stake) wins and also has his fair share of championships (which are extremely difficult to come by in the coverdog game). Bruce and his wife Jenny work their @sses off and cover immense acreages each year on their client's behalf and deserve all the accolades that come their way for their hard work and dedication.

The post that I replied to implied that using wild birds in bird dog training was "hype" and cited Nick's coverdog record as evidence that grouse exposure is not a prerequisite for doing well in grouse trials. Knowing that wild birds are an important component of Bruce's program and also knowing that he's one of the more successful grouse trainers/trialers in the country, I thought that the logic of using Nick's record in the woods to prove that you can excel (at least at the shooting dog/championship level) with no wild birds was circumstantially weak given the relative success of guys like Bruce who burn through a lot of boots in the woods every year getting trial dogs ready to trial and gun dogs ready to hunt.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

the arguments were not grouse trial it was grouse hunting. of course if u r going to trial u send it to a trialer. that's a completely different subject. 

we are talking training a dog to point a bird and hold so u can flush the bird. the average foot hunters hunting dog. 

the training methods are the same if u r hunting in the woods or the field planted bird not planted bird. stop on first scent.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Duece22 said:


> Planted birds are great for initial training and polishing/fixing/working on a specific thing of a bird dog Outside of that wild birds make a wild bird dog. In the end I want a trainer who can do both. Use planted birds when needed and also run the crap out of my dog on wild birds that I primarily hunt. A dog can't learn to handle wild birds they way I want in a small field with planted birds.


I'm buying what you're selling.



junebug said:


> Has anybody told the dog this.that he is to run thru the timber and only hunt the good stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nobody told my dog that when I pick up a leash we are going outside....yet they still go ape crap when I do. 
How'd they figure that out??? Experience? Repetition?




chewy said:


> so my point is then why send them down south on other birds?
> 
> u see the argument to say u can only train dogs on grouse if u plan to hunt grouse holds no weight. or the trips down south would be non existent.


*No one argued that you had to train on ruffed grouse!*
A few suggested using a MI trainer who trains on ruffed grouse (a wild bird). Why did they suggest ruffed grouse? Because we only have 7 bobwhites, 52 pheasants, 33 spruce grouse and 101 sharptails left in the state. What other wild bird would a MI trainer use???



chewy said:


> sure the dog has to learn to hunt the right cover but* the way he handles a bird is the same*. no different than a dog that is in Arizona or Texas. a quail wild or planted or liberated is not a grouse.


How he handles the bird is the same? When's the last time you saw a dog relocate, track 100 yards and pin a running TN Red? Pen raised birds are great for basics and fundamentals, but let's not pretend they are in any way, shape or form the real deal.... 

So it all goes back to the original post. A guy has a 2 year old dog. I'd like to assume it has the basics done at this point in the game (on planted birds). How would exposure to the wild game bird the guy wants to hunt....hurt the dog and owner in any way????


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't get ur reply. they go down south to relocate on running tennesee reds?

and why would u pay someone to hunt ur dog? if u don't have time to get in the woods or field with ur dog then why have one 

the moral of this post is u guys are giving misleading information to someone. ur giving the typical almighty grouse is the king of birds answer. a grouse isn't any different then any other bird it has feathers flys and eats it's own crap.

your love affair with a trial venue that is insignificant in the trial world promotes small running dogs sickens me. 

I'm still going to check it out this fall. find the bird is my bodyguard


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

Brad
He said he was looking for advanced whoa training and bird exposure. I would like to think the dog is not broke on his birdwork if he's not whoa broke. I would say he's not ready to be cut loose in the woods and find grouse. That's what I got out of the original posts.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> it all boils down to can your dog learn the cover. is he smart enough to figure it out. can he hunt in a field as effective the woods.


I think your comment here is on target but if a dog has never spent any serious time in the woods it is going to be at a disadvantage. Particularly when going after midwestern ruffed grouse since they are much more heavily hunted than other places in the country where they occur.

We're not even talking about the different handling techniques and what happens when a dog can't see you.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

can we get to ten pages? lol 

Eric hit the nail on the head. the dogs not broke. it's not even ready to be put in the woods. 

this is how the post went in the direction it did. dogs not broke need a trainer. to break a dog it's done in a field. even grouse trialers break their dog in the field.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

lakergrad said:


> She just turned two. She spent last summer in training on obedience, whoa introduction, bird/gun exposure etc. (May through August). I've had her on a whoa barrel through the winter and spring. She's absolutely bird crazy and is now ready for some advanced whoa training, bird exposure, retrieving. Those are my primary concerns. I just don't have access to the land or birds to do a good job myself.


here is the original post. notice the word retrieving lol he wants his dog broke. bird exposure= a thing with feathers a beak and eats with it's pecker


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

chewy said:


> they aren't grouse. using your logic the dog will only now how to hunt in a desert so don't waste your money sending ur dogs there.
> 
> u see the suggestion that in order for a dog to be used on grouse it has to be trained on grouse doesn't float.
> 
> ...


Do you really believe that "the transfer from planted birds to grouse is almost transparent"? I think you're probably right when you say " the way he handles a bird is the same". However the response of various planted and wild birds will be very different when handled the same. 

The statement "if I run my dog on prairie grouse will he be able to hunt the almighty ruffed grouse?" doesn't really say anything about your dogs ability to handle either species. You can run a schnauzer on prairie grouse it sure doesn't mean you will be successful, you can take that same schnauzer to hunt for grouse again the probability of success is very low. 

I probably haven't had the experience that you have, but in my experience hunting Ruffed,Sharptail,Sage,Spruce,Lesser, and Greater Prairie chickens, ruffed grouse are much more challenging to handle properly than any of the other birds. It has also been my experience that ruffed grouse ask more of a dog than wild pheasants, wild quail, woodcock or snipe. That's just my experience,I'm sure others see it differently. mac


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

yeah I guess I don't buy into all that. they are definitely harder to shoot. 

it's pretty transparent the biggest learning curve is associating woods and birds and how they handle them is the same if taught correctly. if the dog bumps a bird he knows why he did. the hardest part is knowing where to go to set ur dog up for success. 

me personally am not caught up into putting a grouse on a pedestal. I'm not into shopping at orvis for hunting clothes. not into some fancy side by side. I don't need to keep up with the jones. birds are fun to shoot wether they are a robin or a pheasant.


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

BradU20 said:


> *No one argued that you had to train on ruffed grouse!*
> A few suggested using a MI trainer who trains on ruffed grouse (a wild bird). Why did they suggest ruffed grouse? Because we only have 7 bobwhites, 52 pheasants, 33 spruce grouse and 101 sharptails left in the state. What other wild bird would a MI trainer use???
> 
> 
> ...


 
Wait, I thought woodcock dont count either. This is a tricky business.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

chewy said:


> I'm still going to check it out this fall. find the bird is my bodyguard


Only if you agree not introduce yourself to anybody using your MS screen name--otherwise, I'll have to require a stack of up-front cash to defend you!:lol:


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> I don't need to keep up with the jones.


Come on chewy, you pay a handler to campagn your shorthair around the country and from the sounds of it have other dogs in your stable. You're not just a country hayseed who likes to hunt either.


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

Flash01 said:


> I am not personally aware of any trainers that teach a dog to scent or find Grouse. Good breeding (and experience) does that, not trainers.
> 
> Basically you have stated a preference for using a trainer located near grouse woods and presented the reason for it as a real, fundamental difference in training programs. After some scrutiny it has come down to simply your preference. That is fine, but why make statements like...
> 
> ...


Well he used Nick Miller, that should qualify. I am really sorry I read this thread, damn you Randy!


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

Mike McDonald said:


> ruffed grouse are much more challenging to handle properly than any of the other birds. It has also been my experience that ruffed grouse ask more of a dog than wild pheasants, wild quail, woodcock or snipe. That's just my experience,I'm sure others see it differently. mac


 I think we all agree ruffed grouse are one of the hardest birds to put in the bag and for a dog to figure out how to pin them down. But do dogs need to be trained on wild birds to be effective.........no...........is it beneficial yes of course...........if the dog has anything between his ears they should be able to figure it out with time and exposure to the game.


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

FindTheBird said:


> Only if you agree not introduce yourself to anybody using your MS screen name--otherwise, I'll have to require a stack of up-front cash to defend you!:lol:


 FindTheBird i would definately take some upfront cash from Chewy, he is one crazy SOB!! Especially if he drags one of those ugly Wirehairs around w/ you all weekend:lol:


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Ericgmci said:


> I think we all agree ruffed grouse are one of the hardest birds to put in the bag and for a dog to figure out how to pin them down. But do dogs need to be trained on wild birds to be effective.........no...........is it beneficial yes of course...........if the dog has anything between his ears* they should be able to figure it out with time and exposure to the game*.


Time and exposure to game *IS* training. At some point a grouse dog needs to be put on grouse, read; trained. All of the up front work can be completed with poultry, but they have to be finished on grouse.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

chewy said:


> ............... birds are fun to shoot whether *they are a robin *...........


Please don't post things of this nature. It gives all of us a bad image.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

WestCoastHunter said:


> A hot buttered rum indoors sounds better to me in that weather.


Hot buttered rum sounds good, but I've never had one that was good. Any recipes?


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Bobby said:


> Time and exposure to game *IS* training. At some point a grouse dog needs to be put on grouse, read; trained. All of the up front work can be completed with poultry, but they have to be finished on grouse.


 
I think the above statement is the smartest thing I've seen on this board that I didn't write. I now think bobby is the evolved version of me. Or at least me with exposure to better training. mac


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

MAC-
That is what we have been saying for 11 pages! Grouse hunting is training after formal training. Once the dog has been broke and is ready to hunt you have to run them on wild birds and let them figure how close they can get and where to find them.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Ericgmci said:


> MAC-
> That is what we have been saying for 11 pages! Grouse hunting is training after formal training. Once the dog has been broke and is ready to hunt you have to run them on wild birds and let them figure how close they can get and where to find them.


That's one method. They don't need to be totally broke before going into the woods however.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Ericgmci said:


> MAC-
> That is what we have been saying for 11 pages! Grouse hunting is training after formal training. Once the dog has been broke and is ready to hunt you have to run them on wild birds and let them figure how close they can get and where to find them.


Agreed. What I was saying (probably poorly) is that the trainer plays a role in this process too. It's not just about letting your dog find and bump birds. It's about responding appropriately when the infraction occurs. The average hunter may not know how to respond and inadvertently undo a great deal of the steadiness work that was done in a bird field. For that reason, I still believe it's an advantage for the average hunter to hire an experienced trainer who has access to wild birds and makes that exposure part of his training program... IMO 

KW


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Ericgmci said:


> MAC-
> That is what we have been saying for 11 pages! Grouse hunting is training after formal training. Once the dog has been broke and is ready to hunt you have to run them on wild birds and let them figure how close they can get and where to find them.


Sorry poor comprehension on my part. 
Honestly, I do very little formal training. I don't believe in whoa breaking. I'm tired of listening to guys yell whoa at dogs and having a bird blow out. I want my dog to hit sent and stop and hold, until I shoot or release the dog. If he or she busts a bird I negatively reinforce and move on. Most of my work is in the woods on birds. I run a young dog with an older dog and they figure it out. I run my dogs at least 4 days a week in cover so they get lots of opportunity to figure it out. If I get a dog that lacks sufficient ability to be productive to my standards, I find another home for it. I guess I'm too lazy to do anything more than that but it seems to work for me. It helps to have good cover within walking distance of my house. I did put a young dog with Bruce a couple of years ago because I was too busy at work to keep him conditioned. Prior to that and after that I've had more time. mac


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

WestCoastHunter said:


> That's one method. They don't need to be totally broke before going into the woods however.


No they dont need to be broke before going to the woods, however if the original post is looking for a trainer to break his dog and was with a trainer last summer the dog should be broke by this September. I prefer to to have hunt/run dogs that are broke.............just my preferance.


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

Mike McDonald said:


> Sorry poor comprehension on my part.
> Honestly, I do very little formal training. I don't believe in whoa breaking. I'm tired of listening to guys yell whoa at dogs and having a bird blow out. I want my dog to hit sent and stop and hold, until I shoot or release the dog. If he or she busts a bird I negatively reinforce and move on. Most of my work is in the woods on birds. I run a young dog with an older dog and they figure it out. I run my dogs at least 4 days a week in cover so they get lots of opportunity to figure it out. If I get a dog that lacks sufficient ability to be productive to my standards, I find another home for it. I guess I'm too lazy to do anything more than that but it seems to work for me. It helps to have good cover within walking distance of my house. I did put a young dog with Bruce a couple of years ago because I was too busy at work to keep him conditioned. Prior to that and after that I've had more time. mac


Mike-
I guess we all have different ideas of a broke dog.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

I guess I really wouldn't describe my dogs as broke, really just experienced and reliable. They hold their birds, back and retrieve and that's all I really care about. I deal with dogs all day long in a serious way so when I recreate I don't want it to be real serious. I do enjoy watching a well trained dog work. Maybe I'm just lazy. mac


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> I guess I really wouldn't describe my dogs as broke, really just experienced and reliable. They hold their birds, back and retrieve and that's all I really care about. I deal with dogs all day long in a serious way so when I recreate I don't want it to be real serious. I do enjoy watching a well trained dog work. Maybe I'm just lazy. mac


Mike, I'm sure they're around, but I don't think I've ever seen what I could call a broke pointing dog (to me, steady to the hunter's release without yelling at the dog, shocking the dog or touching the dog) who is used solely for hunting. 

I think it should be mentioned that strictly from the perspective of burning as much gunpowder as possible, a dog's degree of required steadiness is directly related to their natural range and/or the habitat they're hunting in.

For example, I have one (retired) dog who always hunted extremely close. She wasn't the steadiest critter on the planet, but she was generally so close that she didn't really need to be. My other dogs range a bit more and therefore need to be steadier (and least to wing and for sometimes long periods of time) for me to get some shooting. 

I trial one of my dogs at the shooting dog level which does require totally broke work. For me, this degree of discipline is enormously fun to experience in the grouse woods (both hunting and trialing) but not really directly necessary for bagging game--although it certainly doesn't hurt and can sometimes help a lot.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

we are almost to ten pages of talking in circles lol. awesome 

like I said before the average hunter doesn't want a dog broke to steady wing shot and fall. they want it to be steady to the flush. 

the original post was I want my dog to be steady to retrieve. and some other stuff. don't remember now. but he wasn't asking for a dog to be ran on grouse he was asking a dog to be broke to hunt behind. 
suddenly the post went on a crazy turn about u have to break it on grouse blah blah blah. 

the first step is to break the dog on a bird you actually know where it's at and u can see the dog. I don't think a grouse is the bird for that then when the dig figures out how to handle pointing and all the good stuff u transfer over to the game of your choice. fundamentals start in a field.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

bottom of page 12 for me.
Chewy you must have it set for more posts per page than I do.
Unless so many posters have you on their *Ignore list* that it shortens threads for you. :lol: :lol:


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

chewy said:


> the original post was I want my dog to be steady to retrieve. and some other stuff. don't remember now. *but he wasn't asking for a dog to be ran on grouse he was asking a dog to be broke to hunt behind. *


Looks like everyone agrees on 90% of what we've been circling around for 10 or 12 pages (only 5 for me, I hate clicking to the next page).

"Broke to hunt behind" - what does that mean to you?
Solid and consistent on pen raised birds?


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

QUOTE=Ericgmci;3693731]MAC-
That is what we have been saying for 11 pages! Grouse hunting is training after formal training. Once the dog has been broke and is ready to hunt you have to run them on wild birds and let them figure how close they can get and where to find them.[/QUOTE]

Eric, they will believe it now because one of there click said it. Haven't you noticed that they only believe what the people up north say. Most of these guys set at home a touch thereself and yell out OH Bruce!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

QUOTE=BradU20;3693917]Looks like everyone agrees on 90% of what we've been circling around for 10 or 12 pages (only 5 for me, I hate clicking to the next page).

"Broke to hunt behind" - what does that mean to you?
Solid and consistent on pen raised birds?[/QUOTE]

I don't like broke. I like my dogs trained. Maybe this guy should go back to Top gun. They know the dog and what he knows. But broke to hunt behind means to me the dog is finished just needs to be hunted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lakergrad (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, perhaps because I started the thread, I should try to end it, :lol: 

My shorthair will be spending the next few months with Vance at Modaka Kennels. There were MANY factors which were part of my decision and in no way should it reflect negatively on any of the other trainers mentioned. I'm sure they all do a GREAT job and should be envied for being able to build their lives around sporting dogs! I'd like to think we may still cross paths one day!

As far as everyone here at MS, thanks for taking an interest and for the spirited debate. Don't take anything said here too much to heart. We're all still part of a special class of hunters with the love of bird dogs at its core.

See you in the autumn woods!


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

junebug said:


> QUOTE=Ericgmci;3693731]MAC-
> That is what we have been saying for 11 pages! Grouse hunting is training after formal training. Once the dog has been broke and is ready to hunt you have to run them on wild birds and let them figure how close they can get and where to find them.


Eric, they will believe it now because one of there click said it. Haven't you noticed that they only believe what the people up north say. Most of these guys set at home a touch thereself and yell out OH Bruce!
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Junebug, what's your deal against Bruce? Do you know him? A few people answered the original posters question with their thought and opinion. I'm not seeing any other personal bashing here so enlighten us what gives?


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

#4 post and it could of been done 

But on the note of wild bird training what are those trainers training this time of year?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

QUOTE=Duece22;3694041]Eric, they will believe it now because one of there click said it. Haven't you noticed that they only believe what the people up north say. Most of these guys set at home a touch thereself and yell out OH Bruce!
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Junebug, what's your deal against Bruce? Do you know him? A few people answered the original posters question with their thought and opinion. I'm not seeing any other personal bashing here so enlighten us what gives?[/QUOTE]

I don't have anything against Bruce. I think Bruce is a great guy that has done a lot in coverdog. My remark was geared toward the people on here that don't know anything about training a bird dog, and have attached themselves to the shirt tail of Bruce like lost puppies. I'm sorry if Bruce or anyone else feels that I was bashing Bruce, as that was not my intention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

This is fascinating. Mostly because while the guys who train on grouse do admit to doing work with pen raiseds, no where in this thread have I seen them saying they wait for the dogs to be fully broke (hey, I've been wrong before, maybe I missed it) before putting them in the woods on grouse or that grouse aren't a part of the overall training program in tandem with pen raiseds...

Oh hell, let's get this fire started. I think Junebug has some AF envy and feels threatened since his venue's titles aren't recognized anymore by American Field, for many reasons, but among them that guys like him don't truly break their dogs to be steady to wing, shot, and the fall. 

Take your best shot cupcake. I don't trial and I don't worry about any of that crap. But my dogs can still hold a point until I get there and they haven't needed near the pen raised bird crutch that yours apparently has.

EOM


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

lakergrad said:


> Well, perhaps because I started the thread, I should try to end it, :lol:


Nice try, but the way this thing's rolling, I think the only thing that will end it is Sept 15. 

KW


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

k9wernet said:


> Nice try, but the way this thing's rolling, I think the only thing that will end it is Sept 15.
> 
> KW


Look out, I think the bar is clearing. LOL


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

WestCoastHunter said:


> This is fascinating. Mostly because while the guys who train on grouse do admit to doing work with pen raiseds, no where in this thread have I seen them saying they wait for the dogs to be fully broke (hey, I've been wrong before, maybe I missed it) before putting them in the woods on grouse or that grouse aren't a part of the overall training program in tandem with pen raiseds...
> 
> Oh hell, let's get this fire started. I think Junebug has some AF envy and feels threatened since his venue's titles aren't recognized anymore by American Field, for many reasons, but among them that guys like him don't truly break their dogs to be steady to wing, shot, and the fall.
> 
> ...


westcoast. coverdog is af for one reason money collection. 

try a better argument than that one 

nstra isn't in af because they actually shoot birds. af cut ties with any org that shoots birds.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> westcoast. coverdog is af for one reason money collection.
> 
> try a better argument than that one
> 
> nstra isn't in af because they actually shoot birds. af cut ties with any org that shoots birds.


Stay out of this one chewy, I like you.


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

chewy said:


> westcoast. coverdog is af for one reason money collection.
> 
> try a better argument than that one
> 
> nstra isn't in af because they actually shoot birds. af cut ties with any org that shoots birds.


Wrong. One reason AF cut ties because NSTRA started doing their own publication, taking tens of thousands away from AF. That line about shooting birds is a liability is a bunch of horseshit. Just an excuse. NSTRA has its own attorney and insurance. And who cares if AF doesn't recognize our champions? WCH, you'll never have one so you shouldn't care either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Firemedic said:


> Wrong. One reason AF cut ties because NSTRA started doing their own publication, taking tens of thousands away from AF. That line about shooting birds is a liability is a bunch of horseshit. Just an excuse. NSTRA has its own attorney and insurance. And who cares if AF doesn't recognize our champions? WCH, you'll never have one so you shouldn't care either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I realize you have a stain in your Crosswind underroos but stay out of this one too. I only have eyes for Junebug today.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I realize you have a stain in your Crosswind underroos but stay out of this one too. I only have eyes for Junebug today.


lmao oh my this should get good


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Man, that's the best way to hide the fact you have no idea what you're talking about. Keep running your mouth. You're like cancer. It sucks when you're around, and just when ya think ya got it beat, you come back as just as big a pain in the ass as when ya left
My offer still stands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> lmao oh my this should get good


*blink* *blink*


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Firemedic said:


> Man, that's the best way to hide the fact you have no idea what you're talking about. Keep running your mouth. You're like cancer. It sucks when you're around, and just when ya think ya got it beat, you come back as just as big a pain in the ass as when ya left
> My offer still stands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe later...now where is ignore...


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

It's really too bad that this is all anyone can see of junebug's posts anymore.
(well, everyone but WCH)


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

You only have eyes for Junebug, and now you're winking at Chewy? Just solidified my beliefs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

BradU20 said:


> It's really too bad that this is all anyone can see of junebug's posts anymore.
> (well, everyone but WCH)


Hey, I think his posts are crap too. But crap begets crap.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

I think his posts are great the truth hurts sometimes


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> I think his posts are great the truth hurts sometimes


Fair, but not accurately telling the whole story. But let's start a barn burner anyhow.

Heeeere Junebug, come on big guy, I know you're just ready to pop. Tell me all about how your NSTRA shag can take it to the coverdog guys and put my hunting dogs to shame (as if I care anyhow LOL). I want to read this.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Maybe I should sing like I do to my dogs.

Heeeeeeeeere!!!!! Heeeeeeeeere Juuuuunebuuuug!!!!!


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

u been drinking tonight? i can actually say this post has fizzled out. hmmm I wonder what the next burning post will be?


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

QUOTE=WestCoastHunter;3694081]This is fascinating. Mostly because while the guys who train on grouse do admit to doing work with pen raiseds, no where in this thread have I seen them saying they wait for the dogs to be fully broke (hey, I've been wrong before, maybe I missed it) before putting them in the woods on grouse or that grouse aren't a part of the overall training program in tandem with pen raiseds...

Oh hell, let's get this fire started. I think Junebug has some AF envy and feels threatened since his venue's titles aren't recognized anymore by American Field, for many reasons, but among them that guys like him don't truly break their dogs to be steady to wing, shot, and the fall. 

Take your best shot cupcake. I don't trial and I don't worry about any of that crap. But my dogs can still hold a point until I get there and they haven't needed near the pen raised bird crutch that yours apparently has.

EOM[/QUOTE]

Well ssence you asked for it. Its not hard to teach a dog to stand steady wing shot and fall, if you have a good whoa. The A F dogs ( which by the way I don't have a problem with) if never allowed to retrieve don't miss what they don( know. If you think that is a hard dog to train you have bumped yor head. And I don't think I ever said I woud hand to cover dogs in there trial, that would be hard for my dogs to do. They would use all of there time hunting and not running. You guy's should breed those turd grinders with greyhounds because all I ever hear at Gladwin is "boy can that dog run" never do I hear it he can hunt. How you like that you ***** wrinkle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

chewy said:


> u been drinking tonight? i can actually say this post has fizzled out. hmmm I wonder what the next burning post will be?


Maybe about tails? That way WCH can comment about how he really doesn't care, and it doesn't matter, when really deep down, it eats away at him looking at that 9 o'clock tail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

junebug said:


> QUOTE=WestCoastHunter;3694081]This is fascinating. Mostly because while the guys who train on grouse do admit to doing work with pen raiseds, no where in this thread have I seen them saying they wait for the dogs to be fully broke (hey, I've been wrong before, maybe I missed it) before putting them in the woods on grouse or that grouse aren't a part of the overall training program in tandem with pen raiseds...
> 
> Oh hell, let's get this fire started. I think Junebug has some AF envy and feels threatened since his venue's titles aren't recognized anymore by American Field, for many reasons, but among them that guys like him don't truly break their dogs to be steady to wing, shot, and the fall.
> 
> ...





junebug said:


> Well ssence you asked for it. Its not hard to teach a dog to stand steady wing shot and fall, if you have a good whoa. The A F dogs ( which by the way I don't have a problem with) if never allowed to retrieve don't miss what they don( know. If you think that is a hard dog to train you have bumped yor head. And I don't think I ever said I woud hand to cover dogs in there trial, that would be hard for my dogs to do. They would use all of there time hunting and not running. You guy's should breed those turd grinders with greyhounds because all I ever hear at Gladwin is "boy can that dog run" never do I hear it he can hunt. How you like that you ***** wrinkle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh my God, I have to admit it, that right there, that was a good reply. Well played.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Maybe later...now where is ignore...


Does your husband know your on the M S forum?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

junebug said:


> Does your husband know your on the M S forum?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not as good. But nice try.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

OTE=WestCoastHunter;3694081]This is fascinating. Mostly because while the guys who train on grouse do admit to doing work with pen raiseds, no where in this thread have I seen them saying they wait for the dogs to be fully broke (hey, I've been wrong before, maybe I missed it) before putting them in the woods on grouse or that grouse aren't a part of the overall training program in tandem with pen raiseds...

Oh hell, let's get this fire started. I think Junebug has some AF envy and feels threatened since his venue's titles aren't recognized anymore by American Field, for many reasons, but among them that guys like him don't truly break their dogs to be steady to wing, shot, and the fall. 

Take your best shot cupcake. I don't trial and I don't worry about any of that crap. But my dogs can still hold a point until I get there and they haven't needed near the pen raised bird crutch that yours apparently has.

EOM[/QUOTE]

You don't field trial because those mutts you pulled out of the pound don't have any style. If you knew anything about dogs you would know those mutts where there because someone didn't have the guts to put them down so they wouldn't pollute the rest of there breed. How do you stomach looking at a 8 o'clock tail on a dog. You have live with a ugly woman you do you have to hunt an ugly dog also?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

junebug said:


> OTE=WestCoastHunter;3694081]This is fascinating. Mostly because while the guys who train on grouse do admit to doing work with pen raiseds, no where in this thread have I seen them saying they wait for the dogs to be fully broke (hey, I've been wrong before, maybe I missed it) before putting them in the woods on grouse or that grouse aren't a part of the overall training program in tandem with pen raiseds...
> 
> Oh hell, let's get this fire started. I think Junebug has some AF envy and feels threatened since his venue's titles aren't recognized anymore by American Field, for many reasons, but among them that guys like him don't truly break their dogs to be steady to wing, shot, and the fall.
> 
> ...





junebug said:


> You don't field trial because those mutts you pulled out of the pound don't have any style. If you knew anything about dogs you would know those mutts where there because someone didn't have the guts to put them down so they wouldn't pollute the rest of there breed. How do you stomach looking at a 8 o'clock tail on a dog. You have live with a ugly woman you do you have to hunt an ugly dog also?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, you NSTRA guys have out done yourselves this time. :lol:

Now we're talking. Like most else you've posted in this thread, you're talking a lot about things you don't know. But it's fun to talk **** anyhow isn't it kid? Or are you an angry old fart who has lost his zing and has only dogs to cling to?

This was so good. :lol:

Thanks for the laugh Junebug. You've given me some entertainment tonight.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Wow, you NSTRA guys have out done yourselves this time. :lol:
> 
> Now we're talking. Like most else you've posted in this thread, you're talking a lot about things you don't know. But it's fun to talk **** anyhow isn't it kid? Or are you an angry old fart who has lost his zing and has only dogs to cling to?
> 
> ...


Go a head and laugh WCH . I know you got to laugh to keep from crying. Tell me I'm wrong that your not hunting second hand junk out of the pound, and your wife doesn't look like wildebeast. Go a head tell me I'm wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

junebug said:


> Go a head and laugh WCH . I know you got to laugh to keep from crying. Tell me I'm wrong that your not hunting second hand junk out of the pound, and your wife doesn't look like wildebeast. Go a head tell me I'm wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're pretty ballsy there bud, not even Chewy goes there!

:lol::lol::lol:

For your safety I won't show my wife that last part. As for the first, one man's trash is another's gold my boy. The problem for you is I still hunt successfully over them and they've not seen near the amount of pen raised poultry that your pedigreed dog(s) have. 

Oh well. As I've said or at least implied, you don't know the whole story on any of what you've talked crap about here, so frankly everyone can take what you say with a grain of salt.

You're just another angry NSTRA dog owner.  Or do you really think I care if your dog comes out of Scrappy...I mean Shaggy...oh hell who cares!! :lol::lol:


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

WestCoastHunter said:


> they've not seen near the amount of pen raised poultry that your pedigreed dog(s) have.


That's exactly why you are still using check cords and bird launchers on these "pot o' gold" dogs of yours. That's your training mistake, not his. 
Too bad you can't read this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Firemedic said:


> That's exactly why you are still using check cords and bird launchers on these "pot o' gold" dogs of yours. That's your training mistake, not his.
> Too bad you can't read this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am? :lol::lol::lol:

Stop while you're ahead. :lol::lol::lol:

Good night chump, I need some sleep.


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Nervous laughter is better than pissing your pants, I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

As I said before, my offer still stands. 

BTW, I don't think I have heard the word chump since I last watched Rocky. Nice!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> You're pretty ballsy there bud, not even Chewy goes there!
> 
> :lol::lol::l
> For your safety I won't show my wife that last part. As for the first, one man's trash is another's gold my boy. The problem for you is I still hunt successfully over them and they've not seen near the amount of pen raised poultry that your pedigreed dog(s) have.
> ...


What have I talked crap about here that I don't know the whole story on ? Please tell. Ps. Thanks for not showing your wife, never seen a wildebeast mad, but bet it's not pretty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stndpenguin (May 19, 2010)

in before close, like the last pointing lab topic.. sometimes you guys push this stuff a little too far


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

junebug said:


> What have I talked crap about here that I don't know the whole story on ? Please tell. Ps. Thanks for not showing your wife, never seen a wildebeast mad, but bet it's not pretty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you've proven the point that you are a low life. Any points that you may have made about dog training has surely been lost by your rants towards someone who can't defend themselves on this site. I find you and your post repugnant and I wish you would crawl back under the rock in which you came from. Bringing someones wife into an argument is beyond low.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> I think you've proven the point that you are a low life. Any points that you may have made about dog training has surely been lost by your rants towards someone who can't defend themselves on this site. I find you and your post repugnant and I wish you would crawl back under the rock in which you came from. Bringing someones wife into an argument is beyond low.


Well said! Banter about dogs and training methods and venues are one thing. Personal attacks are another level and bringing in someones family let's us know how low you are.


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

Duece22 said:


> Well said! Banter about dogs and training methods and venues are one thing. Personal attacks are another level and bringing in someones family let's us know how low you are.


 I guess I do not understand how these type of attacks are allowed. Forming an intellegent argument for one position or another requires thought, which is seriously lacking by some.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

> * junebug's Profile
> * Join Date09-25-2008
> 
> *Friends *
> junebug has not made any friends yet


nuff said


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