# Michigan-Out-Of-Doors 9/25



## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Worm Dunker.... I appreciate that hunting bear with dogs takes a lot of effort, no argument from me on that. And the fact that a bear dies at the end is part of the process. No argument again,

But..... for people who dont hunt, and these are the same people that vote on issues like Prop D and such, the context of all the preparation for a dog hunt is completely lost in the 10 seconds of video film that shows that culmination of this hunt...

A hunter, with a high powered rifle, 20 feet away from a bawling animal that looks like a Hanna and Barbara cartoon character, unable to escape from its predicament; carefully, slowly aiming (as if you couldnt hit a brick wall at 10 paces) and then firing a shot that sends the bear crashing to the ground.

If I were Heidi Prescott or Wayne Pacelle, I would take that segment and play it forever at every speech I ever made. We have to think about some of this stuff ahead of time.

No disrespect to your method of hunting at all, but Im not the person you need to be concerned about. My next door neighbor IS. 

My point is that the show could have left the bear out of the final "shot" without effecting the integrety of the segment, but instead, it was filmed in a such a manner as to demonstrate that this was a "killing", and as such could be construed as not quite a "sporting chance" for the bear, once treed.


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## Mr. 16 gauge (Jan 26, 2000)

Hmm.....I guess I am a little confused; at what point did the bear hunt become "unsporting"? The minute that the trigger was pulled? I thought that was a part of "hunting"? At what point will we *all* agree that some pursuit is sporting? Is shooting a deer of a pile of carrots from 200 yards away with a scope sighted, high powered rifle sporting? A passionate bow hunter probably wouldn't think so. How much of a chance did that poor deer stand? He was just there for the free carrots, and didn't have a chance to get away when someone bushwacked him from an unfair advantage and............

I didn't see the segment, and I have never hunted bear before. But I have seen segments of bear hunts where the hunters were tying up the dogs in preperation of shooting the bear when it suddenly decided to come DOWN out of the tree (remember, it wasn't tied to it......if it went up, it can come back down) in a hurry and sent every one, including the guy with the firearm, scattering.
I have also been on boar hunts with dogs and have seen supposedly "cornered" boar that were "canned hunts" suddenly swap ends, flip dogs and head for the nearest guy and send him up a tree, even though he was armed.
I read ju30/30s profile.....he is still a youngster, and I think his inexperience with bear hunting (and possibly his comparing it to other types of hunting he has experienced) causes him to pose the question that he has......and that's understandable. It's great to see people offer the benefit of thier experiences as well. But when it is all said and done, "sporting" is a term that is right up there with "ethical"; it can and does mean different things to different people......and that is fine, as long as you don't try and pass judgement without having all the facts and views.
One more thing.............don't believe everything you see on TV; even if it is on PBS and it's a hunting show!


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Mr 16 Gauge... you mentioned that you didnt see the show. I saw the show. I was careful to explain that I understood that the bear was going to die.

My point, my only point, is that for the general viewing audience, and I included me and my wife (who is well familiar with animals dying in the hunt) that the short segment that had the camera looking up the barrel of the rifle at an animal that had no escape possibility; carefully zeroing in on a huge target of black fur, and then pulling the trigger as the animal bawled, could have been thought out a little more carefully before airing.

I know its the HONEST approach. I know its the gutsy approach. In this situation, I dont think it was the INTELLIGENT approach, especially when we NEED to be concerned about how our SPORT is perceived by the general public.

I am willing to bet that that part of the segment would disturbed more than a small percentage of the voting public, next time the opponents of Bear hunting in Michigan finds a friendly donator like Malcolm Fields to fund their campaign.


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## Mr. 16 gauge (Jan 26, 2000)

...and again I say: Dont believe everything you see on TV. 

Part of the problem with hunting & fishing shows nowadays is that they are made to "look successfull"; if the viewing audience (which is made up primarilyl of sportsmen) doesn't see a stringer of fish or a full game bag at the end of the show, they don't watch...if nobody watchs, then you have no sponsors. No sponsors, no money.....and no show. That's too bad, because the majority of hunts don't end with a full limit or a full bag. They also tend to make it look "easy".
However, how do you think the general, nonhunting public would react to video of a deer shot with a broadhead that runs off out of sight into the woods? We as sportsmen know that arrows can kill quickly, but does the general public know it? Or do they percieve that "jump" when the arrow hits as excruciating pain and do they think that deer suffered a long time before it was found? After all, we are toldon the videotape to wait at least a half hour before trailing that deer.....right? How long did that poor deer have to suffer before the cameras started rolling again? Should we edit out every scene where animals are shot, and just show the end result? I don't think so........we kill to say we have hunted; we don't hunt to say we have killed. Killing is a part of hunting, and I feel that it needs to shown. No, I didn't see that footage, but again I say......THERE WAS NOTHING TO KEEP THAT BEAR FROM COMING BACK DOWN THE TREE!!! (and wouldn't that have been some exciting footage!)
As far as Wayne Pacell and Peta go, we know were they stand.....they will take footage (like the deer hunt I described) and put their own spin on it. I've seen animal rights footage of deer with arrows sticking out of them....how do you explain that to the nonhunting public? 
Point I'm trying to make is that it is up to us as hunters to explain to the nonhunting public what is going on, and not let the Petafreaks get away with putting thier spin on things. If someone came to me and told me that they were bothered by the footage, I would try to explain to them that most bear hunts end with the bear getting away, that it takes a great deal of physical stamina to hunt bears in this fashion, that killing is a part of hunting, and that the animal most likely didn't suffer. And again.....the bear could have come back down the tree. They can and will do it; just ask the 50 or so French speaking tourists I saw at Yellowstone two years ago who didn't understand that "stay 300 yards away from the bears" means "stay 300 yards away from the bears". These individuals saw a bear and chased it up a tree.......after they were all at the base taking pictures, the bear decided he didn't like that tree and came back down. End result? French tourists are no braver than their military!


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Mr 16... this was not a question of believing what I saw, or believing the editing... the shot taken was show in its entirety... there is no mistaking what I saw.. there was no cut away shots from the camera...

Bear in tree, stuck on a branch looking down at the camera that was looking straight up the barrel of the rifle. I know thats the whole idea, but I question showing it to people (in that manner) that we will NEVER have an opportunity to explain it to. 

I love the Jose d'Ortega de Gasset quote.


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## Mr. 16 gauge (Jan 26, 2000)

All I can say is this: there is no way you can make killing look pretty on film, whether it's war, slaughtering or butchering for food, or hunting.
But I do feel that it is important to show it because if we don't, and don't attempt to explain it as a part of what we do, then we become suspect in the nonhunters eyes when the anti's start passing out their propaganda. I don't beleive in guilding the lily.

I am starting to feel that you just like to argue for the sake of arguing; that being the case, this will be my last post on the subject. I've stated my position to the best of my ability; if you wish to disagree, that's your perogative, but I see no more point to this discussion.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Big Game _
> * With respect to you, I'm inviting you along not to try and change your mind, but ratehr just to let you experience it. Look me up next training season. *


How about me?? I would love to go along. 

Would it help if I made a critical comment about dog hunting?


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## Whitetail (Nov 19, 2002)

Well I want to give my 2 cents also. 

Hound hunters!! Keep on hounding. I thinks thats great that you train your dogs to do that. I know how hard it is to train dogs, I have a dog that is I trained for compations in the ring and we did well. 
I have no problem for you to shoot bears in the tree when "YOUR" dogs treed the bear. I didn't like seening Jimmy just walk up and shoot the bear. He didn't put any time into the dogs. BUT with a big butt... He did do a good job showing me how you people that hunt with hounds hunt. I never knew what went into it. So IMO I don't have one to each there own. I get yelled at by my grandpa for shooting squirrels with a shotgun and not a .22. 
Again don't tell people how to hunt what they like to hunt your way. If I want to sit on I-75 in a orange chair and wait for a buck I can.


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## stevebrandle (Jan 23, 2000)

We hunters get into a lot of trouble when we decide to define what is "sporting" or fair. 

For example is it more sporting to shoot a deer with a recurve bow rather than a compound? Is it more sporting to shoot game with traditional black powder guns than with inlines? Is it better to catch trout on a fly rod instead of a cane pole with a worm? 

There's a dangerous tendency here that some people have that harvesting fish and game has to be done in a primative and unusually difficult way because that in itself makes it fair. Would Jimmy have done better to take the bear from the tree with a bow? How about calling the dogs off and let him wait for the bear at the base of the tree with a knife. 

The sporting and fair chase part of the hunt was impossible to film - the four hour tracking job of the hounds thru the bush. What was shown was the humane and quick dispatching of the bear once it was in the tree.


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## SpringCreek Rock (Jun 10, 2003)

I can say hound hunting is more work than most ever thought of, As Jimmy and Gabe were going to do a show with us but we could not get them in early enough. And we also we know the guy they done the show with as well, We have not seen the show and would like to get a copy and if you could we would be more than glad to pay for it, hope someone can help us out ?
Also like i said we did not see the show but if they showed the killing or shooting of the bear it was not a good deal, we tell people that there is no filming of the actual shooting of the bear plain and simple. As this is what the antis love is this type of film and it will get into there hands over time.
As far as bear hunting with hounds we ran one yesterday for over 12 hours nice big bear it was up a tree one time after it ran for about 8 hours and when i got into the tree the bear came down into our hounds and thank god that none of them got hurt or killed and our breed of hounds could not be bought for any amount of money, we are talking about hounds worth more than 20 to 30 thounsand dollars before we would even listen, how much did you pay for your new 4 x 4 truck that you last bought ?
Well i think most of the others have hit the nail on the head dont knock it until you tryied it.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

It doesn't matter what you tell them.

Unless they are 3 miles into a swamp chasing hounds and it's getting dark then they realize the bear is still out there. Then and only then would they ever understand how hard it is.

I have learned one valuable lesson in life. You don't really know about anything unless you have done it. Watching it, reading about it, hearing about. May give you some understanding but only by doing it will you actually know about it.

I have had a ton of people say to me. " How hard can it really be to kill a rabbit with dogs".

Take that same person out at 5 am on a freezing cold febuary morning into some half froozen swamp and jump one rabbit the hole day Then they would understand.


I will say what I have always said. We are hunters and we must always above all else stick togeather.

I don't fly fish, duck hunt, bird hunt, bear hunt , or even fire arm deer hunt that much. But I stand behind all the good sportsman who do


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

Where did you get that bear?

Looks like some big hills!


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## Shoes (Apr 12, 2000)

My 2 cents worth. I've got to agree that I too thought the film could have been edited better (the ten-second part of JG aiming the barrel at the treed bear). Many of the posts here are explanations about how the hunt is sporting. Most on this site already recognize that. Here you are preaching to the choir. While MOOD is a hunting & fishing show, the apathetic non-hunting public must be considered when airing such segments....and yes, I believe that sometimes they need to be sanitized. Editing and using film blurbs is a favorite tactic of anti-hunting groups.


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

I watch the show almost every week. I loved the show they had a segment the week before maybe two showing the training of these dogs. Its an amazing amount of work. Infact its these peoples life.
I just asked my wife what she thought of the show she is not a hunter and infact does not want me to hunt bear. She likes them to much and at this point in time I have not every put in for a permit. ( maybe in the future she will change her mind ) anyway here exact quote. This is from someone that loves the cute little bears. 
"They show them catching fish shooting geese out of the air and deer hunting." That was it in her eyes no different its the killing of the animal that will feed someone.


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Once more, for clarification...simply....

I do not object to bear hunting with hounds.
I understand that its a lot of work and a hard hunt.

I believe that the final "shot" on film did not do hound hunting any service, and am interested to see that a person who hunts with hounds does not allow the final shot to be filmed. 

He recognizes that politics, propaganda, and those who do not hunt are part of the equation.


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

We shouldn't be afraid of what anti-hunters or non-hunters will think or say. This is hunting let's not try to sugar coat it. What next, a fishing show that won't show the hook in the fish's mouth or the fish as it struggles and jumps trying to free itself. Everybody knows in the end the bear gets shot. Can't we at least hear the BANG!!!!


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Freestone... if we shouldnt be concerned about what anti hunters or non hunters think about this, then I suppose we shouldnt really mind when they initiate publicity campaigns that target the general voting public to eliminate things like Bear Hunting in the future.

Opps... they tried that once. Prop D... many many sportsmen had to spend a tremendous amount of time and effort to head that off at the polls.

But if you say we shouldnt be afraid of them, I guess we have two paths to consider. There is a difference between graphic honesty and sugar coating things. 

I believe we can be sensitive to the issues and present an honest depiction of hunting at the same time. Do you think there is a reason why MOOD doesnt show graphic detail on dressing out the bear? Thats an honest part of the process too....


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

I don't have any problem with the final shot being shown. I also don't believe in determining a course of action through public opinion polls. If you can't handle watching a hunting show then don't watch it. Are we ashamed of what we do? I'm certainly not.


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Freestone...I appreciate your rights to your opinions, however opinion polls are very useful in determining the mind set of the public...very accurately I might add.

If you dont care to find out what they are thinking, you are only eliminating pieces of information that could be helpful to you down the road.

If you didnt POLL your wife for what she wanted for her birthday (suppose she wants diamonds) and you got her a Goretex raincoat instead, you might not get the desired results when she opens the present. Same with politics and the public.

Its not what I can handle, its what the public can handle...if you dont ask, you wont know.


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

I see your point. It's like when the producers of West Wing called and asked for my opinion. They wanted to know how much of a liberal bias they could inject into their show and still keep me as a viewer. 

Do you see how ridiculus that would be? MOOD has to produce a show hunters want to see, not try to walk a tightrope that would please everybody.


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Freestone...yes, I agree, MOOD has to produce a show for hunters, but in the tradition of Mort Neff and public television, they also have a responsibility to a general audience made up of casual viewers as well.

From my perspective, the hound hunt was very interesting and wouldnt have suffered from a little editing at the finale.


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

I shouldn't have let myself get sucked into this.


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## Grey Ghost (Jun 25, 2002)

So, what we should see on this particular hunt is the whole lead up to the shot. Dogs in the dog box, checking for tracks, letting dogs out, sounds of dogs bawling and then Jimmy and friends standing over a dead bear?

Does this show an accurate portrayal of what happened? No, it would be denying the whole reality of the hunt. It would be sterilizing a perfectly historical relationship of men and animal. I'm sorry but those neat little packages of beef in the store should come with a little blood on the packaging to remind us that, yes, something indeed gave it's life so that we can partake of a nice cheeseburger (hold the onions please).

By editing out the final conclusion to the hunt would be bowing to the anti's every wish. By throwing down our weapons and trying to please everybody, we will only be opening ourselves up for attack.

You want reality TV, you got it.


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## Cooner (Dec 24, 2002)

I'm through trying to justify my type of hunting to everyone who doesn't agree with it or other hunters & their elitists attitudes. I was born 100 years too late I guess. Life is not a cartoon-get over it. Life is almost never fair-get over it.Life is not like reality TV-get over it.If you've never done it how do you know so much about it or feel you've earned the right to even make an opinion about it?Like I said on another post I've accepted my place in the hunting world as the scummiest of the scum. My offer still stands that you are welcome to go turn some loose any night you want to go, rain or shine hot or cold. You will be treated right.If at any point during the hunt you are not treated fairly or properly I'll buy your gas to get home.Have a great day.


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

Hey, I got quoted last night on MOOD. It was part of the reply I had with sugar coating hunting in it. My wife got a kick out of it.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

As long as bear hunting with dogs is legally done, it is fair. I say it's fair not only if the law is obeyed but I have been on a hunt and personally know of the work involved, the beauty of watching and hearing great dogs work along with the sadness of a bear tangling with one of the dogs. I can't add anymore that hasn't been said.


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## Cooner (Dec 24, 2002)

Well said Mr. Boehr!Thank you.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2003)

Well said Robert and Big Game.Hunting with hounds isn't the cake
walk that a-lot of people seem to think it is.I run hounds myself and the training and up keep is non stop.It takes a whole lot of time and patience to train a good hound.I run **** with my dogs and I'd just like to point out to Linda that when you **** hunt your free casting your hounds.Their actually going out and finding the tracks on their own,all the bear hunters that I know are finding the tracks and then putting the dogs on it.I'm not taking any thing away from anyone here but in my opinion when running **** your dog is more susceptable to running trash which can be very hard to break a dog from and your hunting in the timber at night.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

When I said that bear hunting is a whole lot harder than **** hunting, I meant on an excitement and intensity level, as well as the possible danger to both dogs and people. I've **** hunted, and I know that the dogs cold-trail the *****, like they do when they're coyote hunting. As opposed to many bear hunts, which are started from fresh tracks crossing a road that hunters have found after "scraping" the two tracks the night before with brush or from a bait pile.

So I know that when it comes to tracking ability, a **** hunt can often be a LOT harder in terms of tracking difficulty...but the rest of the hunt is rarely as strenuous, both mentally and physically, as it is when hunting bear.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2003)

I'll go along with that Linda.It does require a bit of grit to get your dogs off of a tree with a bear in it as they will and do come down during the whole process from time to time,or for that matter going into a blow down where the dogs are baying on one and pull them out of there.It will certainly make you feel alive.Far many more bear are let go when hunting with hounds than are shot.when you take into consideration the long days of training before and even after the season.Its a big commitment.If you hunt your dogs part time you've got part time hunters.


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## Kevin Smith (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Linda G. _
> *When I said that bear hunting is a whole lot harder than **** hunting, I meant on an excitement and intensity level, as well as the possible danger to both dogs and people. I've **** hunted, and I know that the dogs cold-trail the *****, like they do when they're coyote hunting. As opposed to many bear hunts, which are started from fresh tracks crossing a road that hunters have found after "scraping" the two tracks the night before with brush or from a bait pile.
> 
> So I know that when it comes to tracking ability, a **** hunt can often be a LOT harder in terms of tracking difficulty...but the rest of the hunt is rarely as strenuous, both mentally and physically, as it is when hunting bear. *



Just for any casual readers..."Cold trailing" is a term often used very loosely. Different animals under different conditions leave different amounts of scent. Age of this scent is also a factor.
Yes, most game is "cold-trailed" until "jumped", or the dogs near the animal and cause the chase or pursuit to "start". Sometimes it is within minutes, sometimes hours of cold-trailing is required.
A good coldtrailer is crucial for bear hunting, as even the majority of these fresh tracks on dragged roads are 6-12 hours old (based on personal experience) and require coldtrailing by an experienced dog before the others can attempt to join in.
Some guys particularly in the west, claim to coldtrail tracks up to 3 days old. Again, species, time, and conditions are major factors in what makes a trail cold.
Running style of the animal pursued is very different also. A **** may leave a maze thru undergrowth, tap trees, use fallen trees and water, etc., a yote uses speed and large circles often, depending on terrain, a bear usually runs based on where it wants to go given the terrain. Unraveling a **** trail can be much different than full blown pursuit in the "scent tunnel" of a bear traveling at mach1 to get to his favorite swamp. There is a TON one could discuss, but I think it best to experience them all often and learning that way!


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