# Problem with Bear Dogs



## chris_kreiner

I've got a problem with dogs being run on my property in Lake County. We got several pictures of great bear coming into our set and in the last two weeks we've had two different dogs in front of our cams. This doesn't seem right. This is private property as well. 

The number of bear coming into our set has dropped in half since the arrival of these dogs. Is there anything that can be done?


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## srconnell22

chris_kreiner said:


> I've got a problem with dogs being run on my property in Lake County. We got several pictures of great bear coming into our set and in the last two weeks we've had two different dogs in front of our cams. This doesn't seem right. This is private property as well.
> 
> The number of bear coming into our set has dropped in half since the arrival of these dogs. Is there anything that can be done?


What is most likely happening is that your bears are not only hitting your baits, but they are crossing roads on state land or hitting other baits that are run by the dog hunters and then coming to yours. If the dogs are on your camera, they are cold trailing the bears from that bait/crossing to your bait and on from there (bears don't stop for a snack once they are jumped). 

We found one track on the road in training season (before legal baiting season began) and the dogs cold trailed through 5 different baits in one section of swamp before we jumped the bear. That was 5 baits (all bait hunters baits) in about 3/4 mile of swamp, before it was even legal to bait in the Red Oak unit. 

The dogs aren't chasing them off your bait, a bear has no idea that he was trailed from the bait site. Just that a dog is coming up to him and he better run. We run the same bear off our same baits every week. It is seriously like clockwork. They are right back there within a day or so after you run them...sometimes even the same night. 

Most likely, you are fighting acorns and other baits, like everyone else in the woods is with bear right now. I know in Red Oak right now, there are more baits out than there are bears. 

Lake County is Baldwin unit, isn't it? Check the quiet season rules for that unit, I know here in Red Oak, we can't run from this Sunday until the 2nd day of season. If you see hound hunters during the quiet time for that unit, call RAP.


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## Bearboy

Bear dogs have little effect on bear movement. About ten minutes after a chase bears return to their original habits. Research from the university of Wisconsin.


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## sbooy42

srconnell22 said:


> Check the quiet season rules for that unit, I know here in Red Oak, we can't run from this Sunday until the 2nd day of season. If you see hound hunters during the quiet time for that unit, call RAP.


 Was going to start a thread but maybe you can answer.. I keep getting confused because I hear different things from people regarding the season in red oak. And I couldn't find the the digest last night when it came up again

Am correct?
Sept 21 is bait only
Sept 22-27 is bait and dogs
Sept 28-29 dogs only

No dogs during the archery only season


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## srconnell22

sbooy42 said:


> Was going to start a thread but maybe you can answer.. I keep getting confused because I hear different things from people regarding the season in red oak. And I couldn't find the the digest last night when it came up again
> 
> Am correct?
> Sept 21 is bait only
> Sept 22-27 is bait and dogs
> Sept 28-29 dogs only
> 
> No dogs during the archery only season


That's the way I read it. No crossbows during archery only season either.

Quiet season I'm referring to is the 5 days prior to opening day. We cannot run in red oak from the 16-21.


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## sbooy42

srconnell22 said:


> That's the way I read it. No crossbows during archery only season either.


Thank you


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## belden148

where about in Lake county? I know a few dog hunters that run lake county. They guys i know run there for training season only, and they hunt the Red Oak unit.


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## Trophy Specialist

Dog hunters should not be running their dogs in areas where it is likely that the dogs will run bears onto private lands, period. It was dog/bear hunters abusing private lands owners that almost got bear hunting banned in Michigan years ago. We don't need that kind of trouble in our sport. There is no excuse for turning your dogs loose in an area where the likelihood of the dogs ending up on private land is high. If houndsmen can't self regulate this issue then don't be surprised if draconian laws are passed to alleviate the problem.


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## TVCJohn

Trophy Specialist said:


> Dog hunters should not be running their dogs in areas where it is likely that the dogs will run bears onto private lands, period. It was dog/bear hunters abusing private lands owners that almost got bear hunting banned in Michigan years ago. We don't need that kind of trouble in our sport. There is no excuse for turning your dogs loose in an area where the likelihood of the dogs ending up on private land is high. If houndsmen can't self regulate this issue then don't be surprised if draconian laws are passed to alleviate the problem.


Good reminder....I remember that debate when it happened.

Last year when the pooches were let loose my good bait went dead for about week. It picked back up but the hounds definitely made a difference in my area. I also got a cam pic of a passing bird dog at that same bait.


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## Bear Track

Well put Trophy
But as soon as you say somthing dog hunters cry you just dont like us or it wont matter the bears will come back. Instead the true hunters should say your right and we need to do what ever we can to make it better. Someone that owns and pays taxes on a pc of property should not have to deal with that. We as hunters have to start making it right or we will lose our right to hunt and then we will have only our selfs to blame.


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## Trophy Specialist

Bear Track said:


> Well put Trophy
> But as soon as you say somthing dog hunters cry you just dont like us or it wont matter the bears will come back. Instead the true hunters should say your right and we need to do what ever we can to make it better. Someone that owns and pays taxes on a pc of property should not have to deal with that. We as hunters have to start making it right or we will lose our right to hunt and then we will have only our selfs to blame.


Anybody that would knowingly run their dogs in an area where their dogs are likely to run across private lands are not true hunters in my book they are just trespassers in hiding. I hunt with dogs and also bait bears. Even on public lands I avoid hunting where I know other bear hunters are baiting. There's plenty of room out there for everyone to have a hunt that is not purposely disrupted.


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## Bear Track

I agree totally Trophy


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## VIENNA

Bear dogs running onto private land. I've had several encounters with bear dogs/hunters being let go down a public road with private land on both sides. Is that right to do-heck its the officers in the MBHA group. Yes I said officials ..I have no problem with that type of hunting but stay off private land. Its not your land.:rant:


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## EXTREMERUSH

I had the same problem last year. Bait had been hit, seen a small bear first night then had to go home. Come back the next week with fresh vehicle tracks in the driveway and through the field. Go out to check and re-bait site and fresh dog tracks in the bait. Bait went cold and never came back. Nothing worse than driving 400 miles to hunt private property and having to deal with this. Bottom line is if we are not able to police ourselves, someone else will stick their nose where it doesn't belong. Then we have nobody to blame but ourselves!!!!! GOOD LUCK to those hunters lucky enough to pull tags this year.


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## TRAVISW74

Happened yesterday to my wife. She baits for me while I'm workin. We are on a small piece of state land surrounded by private land so that no dogs should be able to run there......well yesterdsay she pulled in and was a truck of hounds running so she went and told them her husband has a tag and they didn't seem to care as they were over on pvt land. Nice big orange signs say Keep Out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DRHUNTER

Trophy Specialist said:


> Anybody that would knowingly run their dogs in an area where their dogs are likely to run across private lands are not true hunters in my book they are just trespassers in hiding. I hunt with dogs and also bait bears. Even on public lands I avoid hunting where I know other bear hunters are baiting. There's plenty of room out there for everyone to have a hunt that is not purposely disrupted.


Thanks TS with people like you my faith in sportsmen may someday be restored..


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## Outdoors Family Queen

Hey Bear Track and TRAVISW74! You are really ticking plenty of people off.

Bear Track see you finally came back to post another opinion. It's been awhile. I know you complained about hound hunters in the Gladwin Area. I don't know where you hunt but if I find out it is you who is going in and out of our family bait sites I will talk to the DNR about hunter harrasment. Everyday after I have or my husband has checked baits someone drives in and out of the same trails, then sometimes walks right up to the baits, like they knew exactly where to find them. Don't ever mess with anyone elses bait! Smile because you have been seen!

TRAVISW74! I see you have been on many threads and start many yourself. Lots of opinions on everything, which you are entitled to. Please get all your facts straight before you make accusations. I too bait most days with my two small children with me. Try that! Haul bait and children at the same time into a bait site on foot, not by four wheeler. Things have gone sour at one of our baits, but it is just the nature of things. Hunters camping nearby, the food sources, more baits out now, acorns are falling, deer hunters checking out areas, four wheelers and gators everywhere, etc.

Read my other posts and if you have a problem PM me. All hound hunters are not bad! My husband has a Tag for the Gladwin Unit this year. Doing it for our family!!! As for state and private mixed together blame the State of Michigan.


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## TRAVISW74

Umm queen I have and do haul bait in by hand with kids and dont use 4 wheeler. I tell the facts the way I see it. Really dont care if I tick people off. If you dont like what I have to say then dont read my posts. Im speaking from my own experiences and own opinions. If you are and other houndsmen are doing things right then no sense of getting all defensive!!!!


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## Bear Track

Queen the only ones I should be ticking off are the tresspassers and the people that start baiting in June. If you were lucky enough to see my smile I know which one you are.


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## rig&run

As a houndsman, I do not purposely let dogs run on private property. I will run State land and National Forest land that may have private land abutted to it. I can not control which way the bear will run. If the dogs take a bear onto private property I can do nothing about it. I do not like them doing so but it cant be controlled. 

The guys that purposely let their hounds loose on or very near private land are not true sportsman and should be ashamed.

To those that despise hound hunting... Put in a day running hounds and understand the work involved and the pride and satisfaction you get, when your dogs that you worked many long days with complete a successful hunt and you may have a different perspective of this hunting method.


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## droppin lines

rig&run said:


> As a houndsman, I do not purposely let dogs run on private property. I will run State land and National Forest land that may have private land abutted to it. I can not control which way the bear will run. If the dogs take a bear onto private property I can do nothing about it. I do not like them doing so but it cant be controlled.
> 
> The guys that purposely let their hounds loose on or very near private land are not true sportsman and should be ashamed.
> 
> To those that despise hound hunting... Put in a day running hounds and understand the work involved and the pride and satisfaction you get, when your dogs that you worked many long days with complete a successful hunt and you may have a different perspective of this hunting method.




I do not think that anyone is disputing the fact that owning and running dogs is both hard work and rewarding. The problem lies with the dog owners that have little respect for private property. There just seems to be WAY too many land owners complaining about dog owners trespassing and/or dropping dogs onto small tracks of stand land surrounded by private land to just ignore the problem. The dog runners have the obvious upper-hand in northern Michigan due to the lack of presence of land owners during mid-week. Play devils advocate and put yourself in their shoes and imagine how upset you would feel if someone was trespassing on your hard earned land and there is basically nothing you can do due to your lack of presence.


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## buck snort

I have no problem with hunters using dogs for bear hunting. But I disagree 100% with the comment that bears are not affected by dogs running them off bait. Bear are affected and change their patterns dramatically if they are chased off a bait. Like i said i have no problem with dog hunters its just something we have to deal with.


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## Brownbear

First, I want to make clear I am not again'st using dogs for bear hunting, but I agree 100% with buck snort, bears do not go back to their regular patterns after being chased by hounds. I drew a tag in the baldwin unit 6 years ago and had some pictures of some great bears coming to my baits up to the opening day. The dog hunters were all over the area opening morning and everyone of my baits went cold after that day. No more pictures! Like I said I am not again'st dog hunting, but do not tell me the bears will be back the next day because they are not.


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## Outdoors Family Queen

Bear Track said:


> Queen the only ones I should be ticking off are the tresspassers and the people that start baiting in June. If you were lucky enough to see my smile I know which one you are.


WE NEVER Tresspass on private property!! We use public lands that do have private around them but we only enter onto the ones we have permission and if we don't have permission we try to contact the landowner to get it. How could you know who I am. Do you follow me around with my kids in the vehicle? We always head up to the lake through the woods to the cabin whenever we get a chance. We have always hunted by ourselves for the reason of not wanting to be involved in all the stupid and crazy stuff that happens with larger groups. We want all the friends we can get, not enemies.

My husband, the kids, and I are always out in the woods. We've seen the same vehicles and people coming in and out of our bait sites and trails that lead to them. One of them may have been you because we have the same person showing up at multiple sites and walking around our baits. We were just wondering because there are rumors around the mill and I know you started the thread about the guys baiting early and them not finding tracks. We know better than that and it is sad that some people do break the law or try to ignore it. We just don't want our bear season ruined and the baits to be messed with. We've got two hard years in with the kids and would like to see something pay off this year. The kids are too involved and love every aspect of it. All the fighting is sad to me. Why can't everyone just get along? As I said before, my husband's family has been in these woods for, well, five generations now! We do every hunting, fishing, and trapping activity that we can find time for.

We never set baits until August 21st when it was legal. We had seen the DNR/CO officer a couple days prior to baiting season. He was abruptly rude when we went out to check out our sites, get the kids out of the house for the evening, and do some scouting for animal sign. Must have been the dog box in the back of the pickup because for some reason all hound hunters are bad. We've had some of the same bait sites for quite some years. We wanted to make sure things would be ready for the 21st of August, because baiting is a lot of work especially with two small children. He told us the woods were full and that there was no room. Excuse me! We were out with our two small children under the age of four trying to enjoy the greatest place in the world, the outdoors and the woods!

We want peace and coexistance for all hunters because if all the wars keep up the antihunters will win. We are trying to keep our kids off the streets and in the woods. May they know hunting the way our great-great-great grandfathers knew it. God be with everyone and your families! Have a great fall hunting!
OFQ


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## outdoors82

Family Queen I think you should probably get your facts straight before you start accusing people of things. You say you want peace and coexistence! Well you're the only one on this forum that is getting so upset about the facts that have been stated. No one on here has said that you were a bad person and that you didn't follow the rules so don't get so upset about it! 

Everyone should just make sure that they're following all the rules so others will be able to experience a Michigan bear hunt. I'm about to bear hunt for the first time this weekend and I'm extremely excited about it! My family has had so much fun baiting and getting ready for this (even though we have come in contact with people who don't appreciate the true sport of hunting) and one day when I have children, I hope to be able to take them bear hunting! But if we can't ALL follow the same rules, then my children aren't going to get that chance!


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## bearhunter0111

" The woods were full and there was no room for you"... Since when did he take ownership of the land. His job is to administer the laws of the state as entrusted to him under the the office he holds as terms of his employment with the state. Take your kids to the woods as many times as you can. Teach them the way to hunt that is both ethical and safe. Be good stewards of the forrest and the animals in our state. I for one am glad to see that a family can still enjoy the outdoors and the sport of hunting. Good luck with your bear season and good luck in passing on the sport we all have so much invested in.


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## Rooster Cogburn

And there needs to be accountability for public servants who misuse the authority we have trusted them with. It is important to contact legislators in our district and file a formal complaint with them along with a copy going to the DNR Law Division Chief...and include specific details along with those who witnessed the abuse of power. Fight back, or continue to be the victim.


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## Bear Track

Queen to much DRAMA
No i dont follow you and your kids around. I stated in response to you saying smile someone is watching. You are insinuateing that you could have a picture of me and my smile, if you did that would mean you would be the one that set there baits in June because that is the only bait other than our own that i have been at. Baits are easy to find but we would never check a bait that is not ours. We stay away from them because that is what we would want. I think it is great that you involve your kids and do it as a family. You talk about time vested, I was not able to get the 21st off from work but still left at 4:30 pm for a 3 hour drive to try and get our 3 baits set before dark and 3 more hours home to return to work the next day. So when I get up there on the weekend and find that someone with dogs has visted our bait site Iam not happy about it, but I still dont blame every person that runs dogs because I know most dog hunters are hard working good people. I will stand by what I have said before is I will not turn a blind eye on someone who is not following the law. I do wonder how many complaints we would get from landowners if dog hunters treated private land like they do a busy highway. I was once lucky enough own a piece of land and know what it like to have tresspassers. To them its never hurting anything but I have heard every exscuse there is. The reason you buy a piece of land is to not be bothered and everyone knows if you want see alot of animals go visit a refuge. HAPPY HUNTING TO EVERYONE and Congrats to those who been successfull and keep the great pics and stories coming. We hope to have some soon.


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## Rainman68

I wouldn't blame the dogs, I blame the owner.

My land is in a private section surrounded by public land. The only times I've had issues with hound hunters is the direspectful ones that feel they can drive their truck, dogs in cage on private roads looking for sign. The dogs can't read the no tresspasing signs and I'm not sure if the owners can either. 

On a side note there is a group of hound hunters I've had the pleasure of meeting... Yes pleasure. They release the hounds knowing they have a good couple miles of public land to track. With a half a dozen trucks and plenty of oil well trails they keep a good eye on them. These guys are from down state like me and try to make the best of their weekend like me. These guys are also doing us a favor working on the coyote popualtion.


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## chris_kreiner

Sorry just got back and wanted to chime in. 

The area we are hunting is between Baldwin and 131. We were getting several different bear and even one that I would guess would go 250-300 lbs. Since the dogs showed up two weekends ago we have not seen that big boy return just a 150lbs bear came back. Out of all the bear we were seeing they haven't shown back up in two weeks. After all the hard work and money spent to prepare bait stations, blind setup, and preparation for the hunt it is very discouraging to see a decline in the number of pictures and bear we were getting. 

I know there are several out there who run bear dogs but I was greatly considering putting a petition together to have more regulation to the use of bear dogs. 

Here is a question, Why do some train their dogs in units they don't intend to hunt? Why don't they go up to where they are hunting and spook those bear? 

Forgive me if I am nieve, cause I really don't know anything about bear hunting but after taking 11 years to draw this tag it is beyond frusterating knowing that it could have been for nothing!! Only time will tell I guess!!


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## coyote/dave

look at gas prices.......thats why...many people like myself have a right to enjoy state and federal land where they live..don't leave out the **** hunters who are also in the woods training hounds..on top of that baldwin area is saturated with baits this time of year.. locals in my neck of the woods love to feed the bears...this also alters bear movement... its been my experience that its hard to keep big bear on the same bait for the entire baiting season.. sections are small and lots of activity going on........


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## Luv2hunteup

> Here is a question, Why do some train their dogs in units they don't intend to hunt? Why don't they go up to where they are hunting and spook those bear?


Public land is just that public land. Most is open to running dogs. 

In case you didn't realize it we also have private land in the UP that does not abut public land. We are also tired of having a few inconsiderate hound handlers turn their hounds loose on roads with private land on both sides. Your problem is not unique.

Did you ever consider that many hound handlers don't have a bear harvest tag for any BMU?

Maybe it would be more fair if hound handlers could only train their hounds in the peninsula where their primary residence is located.? Many above the bridge would prefer this.


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## chris_kreiner

Unfortunately this area is surrounded by Public Land however this piece that we are hunting is private. I understand that there are likely other baits in the area but it's kind of funny we get a picture of one dog and the bear sightings go south instantly!! I doubt that overnight we lost 8 bears to other baits.


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## Rooster Cogburn

Chris, its real easy to make assumptions as to why activity around your baits has dropped off. But, to conclude it is other hunters with hounds overlooks the impact from other folks out there baiting. And, they may have some very effective baits. Maybe you do not know just how far bears travel when feeding. If bear baits "barked like a dog" making you aware of just how many are out there you'd likely get things into perspective a little better.

You don't see dog hunters ranting about the fringe group of folks new to bear hunting who lose a high percentage of unrecovered wounded bear every year. So, if I were you I'd give up on your anti-hunting rhetoric before it comes back to bite you on the ass. There's plenty of stuff we can carpet bomb each other with. Most of us have better sense than to make enemies of each other.


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## chris_kreiner

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Chris, its real easy to make assumptions as to why activity around your baits has dropped off. But, to conclude it is other hunters with hounds overlooks the impact from other folks out there baiting. And, they may have some very effective baits. Maybe you do not know just how far bears travel when feeding. If bear baits "barked like a dog" making you aware of just how many are out there you'd likely get things into perspective a little better.
> 
> You don't see dog hunters ranting about the fringe group of folks new to bear hunting who lose a high percentage of unrecovered wounded bear every year. So, if I were you I'd give up on your anti-hunting rhetoric before it comes back to bite you on the ass. There's plenty of stuff we can carpet bomb each other with. Most of us have better sense than to make enemies of each other.


 
I don't see how anything I have said has anything to do with anti-hunting. From what I see you could have done without the last paragraph before making things personal!! It's comments like that, that are senseless and do not need to be made.  

I am not bashing one way or the other on the way hunting bear takes place. I am saying that training can be done in other ways instead of running the bear around before season.


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## Rooster Cogburn

Chris, your earlier post (#30) stated you were thinking about starting a petition to further regulate hound hunting. That's an anti-hunting tactic.

Just for the record, a 5 day quiet period prior to the September season opener was eastablished a couple years ago to appease folks. Prior to that the hound hunting community gave up the first 5 days of bear season so folks who choose to hunt over bait had the woods to themselves.


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## moreychuck

chris_kreiner said:


> I don't see how anything I have said has anything to do with anti-hunting. From what I see you could have done without the last paragraph before making things personal!! It's comments like that, that are senseless and do not need to be made.
> 
> I am not bashing one way or the other on the way hunting bear takes place. I am saying that training can be done in other ways instead of running the bear around before season.


 
I dont mind the vegan anti hunting stuff but it tears me when other hunters just want to stop others from using resourses that are everyones
the 5 days of baiting did help but long way from perfect 
two things that would help is if the guys had to have a tag to mess with the bears have a tag or stay home go golfing or what ever second thing is the dog guys should go first one year baiters the next that way i could have a few days everyother year when i drive down the county roads i not getting acused of running of baits 5 miles away


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## chris_kreiner

The only reason I blamed the dogs is because that seemed to be the turning point to the change in the amount of pictures. If it's not dogs then who knows exactly what is going on.

I apoligize for stepping on so many toes!! My lack of eduction regarding bear dog hunters and bait hunters has put me into territories I don't understand. All my questions have been answered and I thank everyone for that!!

I want to wish everyone Good Luck this season and hopefully I will have some successful pics and videos to share of our hunt. 

Thanks!!


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## moreychuck

good luck on your hunt hope you have a fun time


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## welldriller_old

chris_kreiner said:


> I don't see how anything I have said has anything to do with anti-hunting. From what I see you could have done without the last paragraph before making things personal!! It's comments like that, that are senseless and do not need to be made.
> 
> I am not bashing one way or the other on the way hunting bear takes place. I am saying that training can be done in other ways instead of running the bear around before season.


Just how would you train a bear dog to run bear without running bear?

How many dogs have you trained with this method and want kind of success do you have?


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## swampbuck

This just occured to me......If a bait hunter sets a bait early, It is an illegal bait. Why should a bear dog hunter be able to hunt off a bear bait that was in place for the much earlier training season. Should bait hunters be allowed to start bait's in june like dog hunters do?


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## Sasquatch Lives

Steve White said:


> I have been avoiding posting on this. After the above post I have got to chime in finally.
> 
> SL- Can you PROVE IT TO ME!! I can prove it to you!! Yet regardless of how many pics I show you. Going back at least 10 years. Folks like you will always say differently. I got loads of proof, but you will discount that. Because you seen it with your own eyes. You sat on stand one day heard or seen dogs. So when you did not see a bear it was the dogs fault. Of course it had nothing to do with what you were doing, or what mother nature was offering. It was all the dogs fault. They run all the critters out of the woods.
> 
> .


So you evidently somehow know that I must have hunted one day and saw no bear and blame it on dogs? You don't know $%#@ about me. You can show me any pic you want from a high density bear area and will not convince me. Was the bear on the bait the one your dogs chased off earlier? Probably not. Do you have multiple bears hitting your bait to begin with? Probably so. In the lower density areas I am familiar with, if you run off the one or two bears hitting a bait, they are gone for a day or two minimum. And for a weekend warrior like many of us are, that may as well be for a month. And trespassing dogs, like you said, thats a whole other story.


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## boomer_x7

Wether dogs scared off the bear from the OPs bait stations or not, it realy doesnt matter. trespassing is trespassing.


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## shephard1993

Trophy Specialist said:


> Dog hunters should not be running their dogs in areas where it is likely that the dogs will run bears onto private lands, period. It was dog/bear hunters abusing private lands owners that almost got bear hunting banned in Michigan years ago. We don't need that kind of trouble in our sport. There is no excuse for turning your dogs loose in an area where the likelihood of the dogs ending up on private land is high. If houndsmen can't self regulate this issue then don't be surprised if draconian laws are passed to alleviate the problem.


 
The last time I had a issue on private land, I released a hound on a bear 7 miles as the crow flys onto state land. I respect private but I dont think the fella that was screaming at me owns the 7 miles between his 40 and the spot I released. I showed him on the gps were I started, and he had never even heard the road name. He said he didnt think I should be able to run if there was the slightest chance of getting on to private ground. I told him then I didnt think he should be able to bait hunt a bear or deer on his land if that animal stood any chance of ever touching state ground. He told me he figured the bear he had been feeding would probably never return, mind you this was a solid month before bait was even supose to be out. Im gonna tell you land owners a little secret, and I mean this with respect and honesty. 99 out of 100 hound guys want there dog on private ground way less then the land owner. Private ground makes access to our dogs much harder, and not even us evil dog dudes want a butt chewing first thing in the morning.


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## johnnyrick1981

swampbuck said:


> This just occured to me......If a bait hunter sets a bait early, It is an illegal bait. Why should a bear dog hunter be able to hunt off a bear bait that was in place for the much earlier training season. Should bait hunters be allowed to start bait's in june like dog hunters do?


Check the regs chum!! Dogs or not, you can't bait until aug 10th.


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## johnnyrick1981

Sasquatch Lives said:


> So you evidently somehow know that I must have hunted one day and saw no bear and blame it on dogs? You don't know $%#@ about me. You can show me any pic you want from a high density bear area and will not convince me. Was the bear on the bait the one your dogs chased off earlier? Probably not. Do you have multiple bears hitting your bait to begin with? Probably so. In the lower density areas I am familiar with, if you run off the one or two bears hitting a bait, they are gone for a day or two minimum. And for a weekend warrior like many of us are, that may as well be for a month. And trespassing dogs, like you said, thats a whole other story.


Your name say's a lot about you. Plain old black and white FACT in front of you and you still deny it. 

You can't fix stupid I guess.


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## shephard1993

chris_kreiner said:


> Sorry just got back and wanted to chime in.
> 
> The area we are hunting is between Baldwin and 131. We were getting several different bear and even one that I would guess would go 250-300 lbs. Since the dogs showed up two weekends ago we have not seen that big boy return just a 150lbs bear came back. Out of all the bear we were seeing they haven't shown back up in two weeks. After all the hard work and money spent to prepare bait stations, blind setup, and preparation for the hunt it is very discouraging to see a decline in the number of pictures and bear we were getting.
> 
> I know there are several out there who run bear dogs but I was greatly considering putting a petition together to have more regulation to the use of bear dogs.
> 
> Here is a question, Why do some train their dogs in units they don't intend to hunt? Why don't they go up to where they are hunting and spook those bear?
> 
> Forgive me if I am nieve, cause I really don't know anything about bear hunting but after taking 11 years to draw this tag it is beyond frusterating knowing that it could have been for nothing!! Only time will tell I guess!!


 
I train and hunt the same unit in the northern section of red oak. I trained very close to home this year, and it seemed as if the population was improving very slightly. Lucky for the bear hunters, but not so lucky for the bear we had a very poor mass crop this year, and the baits are being even more productive than usual. Now it is only the 3rd night of the season, and I already know of more bears killed then I hoped would be taken in the whole season.
I have done some guiding, but turned several hunters down this year because I was concerned with the population. I feel due to the fact that I hunt/train as much as possible every year in a fairly large area I have a fair idea of how many bear there are, and its not many. I am not slamming the bait guys, but I have never seen one yet say the dog guys got a couple in this area yesterday maybe for population sake I better not harvest one. Like I said I have already decided they have shot to many in our general area so we are leaving tags unfilled. When your bait gos dead it is probably as much to blame on mass crop, small game season, or the fact that YOUR BEAR got blasted 5 miles away on a different bait.
I have been to several meetings regarding the bear population. At least 90 percent of the hunters at the meetings trying to preserve the bears were hound hunters. Its funny the number is that high when only 7 percent of the harvest was by the hound hunters. It would almost make you think the fella with his bucket of donuts and his little spot in the woods could care less about the number of bear in his area just as long as them hounds dont run YOUR BEAR off.


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## Sasquatch Lives

johnnyrick1981 said:


> Your name say's a lot about you. Plain old black and white FACT in front of you and you still deny it.
> 
> You can't fix stupid I guess.


Boo Hoo........Go back out and play with your dogs.


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## gundog1

Wow all I hear is "I have no control"  This is not good to hear. Just like the health care reform you watch there will be BEAR REFORM. Any time you keep saying I have no control and people keep getting pissed off because of the lack of your control, well need you really say any more!!!! Look we are in Michigan and this state loves to control everything!!!! I am a dog lover and owner of many BIRD DOGS so this no-control thing doesn't sound good to me, but I understand it.
Good luck with that....


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## coyote/dave

forgot to ask.... did these dogs have gps and vhf tracking collars....if they didn't they weren't bear dogs....my dogs wear $400 worth of tracking devices around their neck....i know where my dogs are when they are on the ground... with the new gps systems it is easy to break up a bear race going into the wrong place....


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## coyote/dave

4 days into the season did you get a bear yet..........


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## Steve White

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Boo Hoo........Go back out and play with your dogs.


That's the attitude I expected. 

I'm still waiting for the proof you have that dogs scare all the bear off the baits.

You say I don't know you. But you sure did get defensive by my profile. Must have hit real close to home. 

I hunt dang close to every single day. Hunting off the same baits every single day. Year after year for many years. How is this possible if dogs scare all the bear away. 

I got no answer to the question either about why would hound hunters even use baits. If dogs scared all the bears away. It would seem to be a waste of time. 

I looked through the last few posts, and I did not see anywhere anyone said they have no control. Many are using GPS collars. So we have more control. 

Trespassing is not trespassing. Truth is many claim hounds are trespassing just because they can hear dogs. I can hear them they must be on my land. Well, that is a crock in itself. Dogs under the right conditions can be heard over 2 miles away. I love folks that will come out screaming at me. Because I am trespassing only because they can hear the dogs. Or, just because they seen my truck on the road their property is located on. I'm holding proof in my hand in the form of a time date stamped GPS track log. Dogs never once touch private property. I never once touch private property. Yet the claims are made of such. Only due to hearing dogs, or seeing a dog truck. When the truth of the matter is the only laws that were broken. Were by the person that came out yelling and screaming at someone else. Because they have no clue. In every state of the union it is some form of a disorderly conduct law which has been broken by the screamer. 


Like I said, trespassing is wrong, but bulk of these problems are by a few bad apples. Could be on either said. One a dink that just dont care, or a property owner that embellishes things. The problems dont come from guys like myself who try to steer clear. But something strange happens one day. Happens that the dogs due go across the 40 of a guy like Gundog who understands. It happens maybe once or twice a year. Apologizes are made, permissions maybe granted. Each side understanding and cooperating. Neither happy about it. Gundog even understands that the dogs dont spend a lot of time on his land. If they are in pursuit. Even tired old dogs are going to cross a 40 faster than most of us walk. He understands that if a dog is at a bait on camera or by tracks. That dog was most likely cold trailing from another bait. Which could be from miles away. That the only reason they came to that spot was because of the new bear bait he placed this year. He knows the problem can be solved peacefully. Heck, Gun dog may even understand that the owner of the hounds may already being tying to figure out a way to avoid his property. GPS collars, and sat maps are powerful tools.

There is a lot more to this trespassing thing. I know the problem is far larger in the deer hunting group. Just simple numbers logic dictates more bad apples. Not as much is heard about this. Much of it is not seen either. 

I hunt around a lot of private property. Have for years so know how the game is going to react. But then something changes I do not know about. So I have to deal with it. Nobody was required to tell me either. It just happens that way. This happened big time in on area I hunt a few years ago. In over 10yrs in the area had only a couple of private land crossings in total. Then all of a sudden it became almost a daily thing for a bit. Turns out 5 people drew bear tags on a road that borders the area. 5 new baits placed all in a row. The bear then starting using a bar dumpster for the first time ever as well in the middle of this string. Didn't take long to have a problem with property owners, or to figure out what was going on. So I had to change my buffer zones a bit to compensate for this. Even pulling baits to prevent cold trailing to the string. I worked to prevent problems real hard. In the end even the most irate property owner has become friendly. 

The point is we worked together to solve a problem and coexist peacefully. The most irate property owner had another tag last year. Sticking to my solutions, and he never once seen the dogs on his property even with that bait again. 

Us hound hunters that are not the bad apples. Do try to police ourselves as much as possible. You think things dont go well being a property owner dealing with a hound hunter. Try being the hound hunter dealing with a hound hunter. It does not go well at all. I have been dealing with a group of bad apples the last few years myself. Come around once a year and cause nothing but problems. Been real close to some knock down drag outs. Not over hunting turf, but over your property. 

There is a lot more to all of this. The big picture is seldom ever looked at.


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## Bear Track

Steve you talk like you are working real hard to play by the rules when it comes to private land and I say more power to you for that. But i wonder about baiting starting in June. You have the bear well trained by the time most of start. How do you reply to starting 2 months early?


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## srconnell22

Bear Track said:


> But i wonder about baiting starting in June. You have the bear well trained by the time most of start. How do you reply to starting 2 months early?


I bet you he starts training his hounds a week before July 8th too! 

Oh the travesty!!


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## Steve White

Bear track- Again you are talking about a few bad apples. I would venture a guess that there are just as many bait sitters starting baits early. The guys I know do not do this. In fact I hear them complain about it every year. Not that I am advocating breaking the law. But if this is such a big problem to you. The wardens refuse to do anything about it. Then do it yourself. Besides just ask any bar room biologist. They will tell you you dont need to bait until a few days before. 


Srconnel- Your right I do. I start hunting every year on July 1st. In WI that is. I even start baiting much earlier. Can legally start april 15th. Depending on the weather and such may start then or wait a few weeks. 

I just have to go back to bear track. I wonder what the point of starting to bait early is. According to posters on this thread following the lines of your post. Would then hound guys not be training bear to not hit baits. Or are you saying that by baiting early and running dogs on those baits early. That the bear become accustomed to the dogs? Would this also not be fully contrary to some posts. Hear I thought we had already established that dogs scared all the bear away. Only because somebody's brothers sisters plumbers cousin has a friend that seen it with their own eyes. 

So we have university studies that mean nothing. We have thousands of pics that mean nothing. All the bear are scared away unless of course you start to bait them early. 

Anyone really have any proof to support dogs scaring all the bear away. Or, should we just believe the word of that second cousins sisters friend from facebook. 

But why even stop there. Throw the tangent out there that all hound people trespass. They are the only ones. Lord knows no other type of hunter or anyone else for that matter ever cross a property line. Just them evil hound people. 


My lord, does any of this even remotely sound as ridiculous to others as it does to me. I mean really one of the smaller groups of hunters is causing all your problems. A bit of a stretch I think.

If you could not lay blame on hounds. I'm sure that the blame would fall elsewhere when your tag went unfilled!!

Oh, that reminds me. I have a bunch of baits that went cold along a river. The dang duck hunters scared all the bear away!! We need to put an end to the slaughtering of our feather friends!


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## coyote/dave

my baits still getting hit in lake county... dogs have been running of this one for 10 yrs... i think i will catch me a bear this morning and let him go...


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## srconnell22

Steve White said:


> Srconnel- Your right I do. I start hunting every year on July 1st. In WI that is. I even start baiting much earlier. Can legally start april 15th. Depending on the weather and such may start then or wait a few weeks.


I know you are in WI, that's why I said it. 

His post just made me laugh, he thought he was a super sleuth. :lol:


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## outdoors82

Not that I am advocating breaking the law. But if this is such a big problem to you. The wardens refuse to do anything about it. Then do it yourself. 

You know what Steve White, you sounded intelligent until you said this! Yeah you're right its probably not going to hurt anything by baiting early but laws are set in place for a reason! I am someone who has never broken a hunting law in my life and I've been hunting for 18 years. I'm proud of that because I'm a successful hunter without cheating the system. Once people break one law and get away with it, they tend to try to see what other laws they can break. Then we have a whole bunch of idiots in the woods doing whatever they want. Thats a scary thought and thats going to get a lot of hunting rights taken away!! Its so frustrating to hear people say "well everyone else is doing it so why can't I?" Grow up people!


_Posted from Michigan-sportsman.com App for Android_


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## Robert Holmes

Trophy Specialist said:


> Dog hunters should not be running their dogs in areas where it is likely that the dogs will run bears onto private lands, period. It was dog/bear hunters abusing private lands owners that almost got bear hunting banned in Michigan years ago. We don't need that kind of trouble in our sport. There is no excuse for turning your dogs loose in an area where the likelihood of the dogs ending up on private land is high. If houndsmen can't self regulate this issue then don't be surprised if draconian laws are passed to alleviate the problem.


 That incident occurred on Drummond Island. Drummond is a pretty popular place to train bear dogs and one resident got pretty hot about it. There is loads of federal land on Drummond but sometimes a bear will run quite a ways. The bears on Drummond will also hang out by the residences either because they are being fed or are looking for an easy meal. This might very well have been a case of someone feeding the bears and getting upset when dogs show up on his property.


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## Neal

Rooster Cogburn said:


> You don't see dog hunters ranting about the fringe group of folks new to bear hunting who lose a high percentage of unrecovered wounded bear every year. So, if I were you I'd give up on your anti-hunting rhetoric before it comes back to bite you on the ass. There's plenty of stuff we can carpet bomb each other with. Most of us have better sense than to make enemies of each other.





> Chris, your earlier post (#30) stated you were thinking about starting a petition to further regulate hound hunting. That's an anti-hunting tactic.


Just curious, when the bear/hound hunting organizations sued to restrict/regulate the trapping of bobcats in the lower peninsula, was that a anti-hunting measure?


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## Spartan88

Good point Neal...


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## Steve White

Outdoor- Your right. That did not come out in print quite like what it did in my head. Really it was another tangent anyway to deter form the matter at hand. Since illegal baiting has nothing to do with hounds. Anyone can illegally bait. If they think that is really going to solve anything. Which is what my point was. 

It does not matter in the big picture about bait times, or amounts. To some degree anyway. Have never attempted dumping truck loads daily. I'm sure that would have other results. Just baiting as a normal person might do. 5-10 gals a crack. I use a 4 gal bucket, but will try to bump it a bit in the fall. Point is other than the truck load thing. When the fall mast crops hit. It does not matter much. The bear are going to go to those foods. Until they dry up. The only way to even remotely combat this. Is to have baits in these fall crops. Even then they will turn their nose up at it. 

Mind you though. When these crops are not there. They are going to go where the food is best. Maybe it's your bait, maybe its mine. If mine is more consistent they are going to check that more often. But will still look elsewhere. 

Running a pile of baits. It is easy to see the ebb and flow of natural foods, bait types, pressure in the woods, and of course the dogs!!! In all reality my best hit baits. Are the ones I run dogs off daily. Perhaps the daily baiting has something to do with that.


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## Rooster Cogburn

Neal, it was not "bear/hound hunting organizations" that sued over opening bobcat trapping in the NLP. It was MBHA that initiated the law suit. Please do not include the rest of us in that issue.


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## Bear Track

Steve I did not know you baited in other states . That is why I asked for your reply. I agree that it is just a few bad apples ( dog hunters and baiters:evil that make it bad for so many, but I wont do it just because others do and I also wont just sit back and do nothing even though it would much easier and would give me more time for fun ( call RAP and see how much fun and time out of a weekend it takes). I wont say that baiting early in the the year is bad but do know ( 30 plus years of bear hunting) that the longer you bait the more of a habit it becomes for the bear. And I think you would agree if a bear is content with a couple of baits he not going to be so inclined to search out more ( not saying never). It was stated on here about starting a petition which is not the answer but I sure understand the frustration when certain ones just want make excuses for the wrongs ( baiting early, tresspassing and my favorite, you just dont like dogs ). I just think that we have rules for a reason and if you dont agree with them you work to change them not just ignore them or break them. If wer not carefull were all going to lose.


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## corkcoupons

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Neal, it was not "bear/hound hunting organizations" that sued over opening bobcat trapping in the NLP. It was MBHA that initiated the law suit. Please do not include the rest of us in that issue.


That's the problem with this website, you have moderators posting false bs. What a jerk. Get your facts straight neal. Ban away.


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## Steve White

Beartrack- I certainly can see that you have an understanding of some things. I also can see that you are upset by others. I understand what you are saying. I feel it is important to to take a look at the big picture. Understand what all parties involved are saying. Then try to resolve things in a way that might make most happy. Never will make everyone happy. 

I feel that a lot of the issues with dogs has to due with education. Not that anybody is stupid. Just that many do not know what is involved or how things react. So I try to do my best to educate folks on the matter. Normally I end up sticking my nose into a hornets nest. But if I can help calm things or educate some very upset folks. Then it is worth a few stings. There are many on here that know me. They also know that I am a stubborn, egotistical, smart butt. At times can even be a done right bung hole. Might make me good at what I do, but also hard to take at the same time. I have my opinions and will let you know them. Some may be wrong. Some may be right. But it is these forums that educate all of us. I have been a guide, and self employed for over 20yrs. Would think by now I would know a little better how to smooch butt. Yhe first part gets in the way sometimes I know!!!

I really believe MI folks truly have a leg up on things. Mostly because so many of you are able to hunt bear more often. Aside from us evil dog guys that is. So in theory MI folks should be a lot more knowledgable of how bears behave during the seasons. Granted none of us will ever know it all. I am always learning new things about bear. Still cant figure them out. Just when I think I got them patterned. Bamm, the big monkey wrench! Being that I pursue, watch and study bear for at least 6 months of every year. I see things most don't. The best thing I ever did was start to use game cameras. Trying to get to the point of every single bait we got having one. It's tough with thieves, and costs. Right now it is costing me around $200 a month to maintain the 12 cameras I have. In total we have 19 out in our group. My 12 get tracked a whole lot more than the others, but that is a different matter. Having these cameras on different baits in different terrains really reveals a lot about all the critters in the woods. So much so we are able to name a lot of our game. Not just the bear. Have learned things I would have never known without them. This enables me to due me job that much better. Which is why it was such a relief with the clients I had this year. Wanting to do what I thought was best. You better believe they did not want to sit on dog baits. But they trusted their guide. I watched closely everything that was going on. Made a plan, and it came together like it should have. Took a lot of work to do this, and game cameras helped immensely. 

A lot of this is not like my home state of WI at all. Where at best in dog zones. You might get a tag every 7 years. In my zone it is 10 yrs. So I have to deal with a crop of bear rookies every single year. So there is a lot more work to fight off the wives tales of hunts gone bad. It makes matters worse that most of us hound guys are a bit hermit. We try hard to stick to ourselves, and out of the spotlight. Rather than face the issues. Hide form them. Well, things have changed a lot in the pat couple of decades. 20yrs ago we did not have GPS collars, or game cameras. These tools have made us better hunters, and given us the ability to put to rest some of the age old wives tales. 

Will things get better. Only one person knows. I do know though. That if we all cannot find a way to play together. Nobody is going to get any playtime eventually. Overall I do believe most of the issues can be worked out. Unfortunately there will always be bad apples. Leaving a sour taste in ones mouth. This makes it a bit worse. No matter what any of us do. There will always be a bad apple or two. it's just part of life, and why prisons are full.

I wish everyone a successful season. Many of us will always be there to help if you got questions or problems.


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## swampbuck

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Neal, it was not "bear/hound hunting organizations" that sued over opening bobcat trapping in the NLP. It was MBHA that initiated the law suit. Please do not include the rest of us in that issue.


Didnt they initiate that on behalf of houndsmen. I know some cat hunters and they are first and foremost bear hunters.


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## Neal

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Neal, it was not "bear/hound hunting organizations" that sued over opening bobcat trapping in the NLP. It was MBHA that initiated the law suit. Please do not include the rest of us in that issue.


MBHA = Michigan Bear Hunters Association, Right?


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## Rooster Cogburn

Neal, you're right, MBHA is Michigan Bear Hunters Association. Although there are some members and a couple board members I count as friends,
I consider MBHA to be basically a downstate organization that's mostly concerned about downstate issues. 

Swampbuck, MBHA initiated the bobcat suit on their own and they sure as hell don't speak for all of us.


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## swampbuck

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Neal, you're right, MBHA is Michigan Bear Hunters Association. Although there are some members and a couple board members I count as friends,
> I consider MBHA to be basically a downstate organization that's mostly concerned about downstate issues.
> 
> Swampbuck, MBHA initiated the bobcat suit on their own and they sure as hell don't speak for all of us.


I understand that, That puts them in the same league as the MBowHA and MUCC on the X-bow issue. Unfortunately when the membership dont speak up or the management ignores them, The perception becomes guilt by association........One more reason we need ALL special interest groups OUT of the wildlife management business.


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## mydogisscout

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Neal, it was not "bear/hound hunting organizations" that sued over opening bobcat trapping in the NLP. It was MBHA that initiated the law suit. Please do not include the rest of us in that issue.


are the members of MBHA not primarily dog hunters??? seems to me that they are a "hound hunting organization".


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## shephard1993

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Then prove it to me. I believe what I have seen with my own eyes more than what a study from a university suggests. Nothing spooks game more than a pack of dogs except for maybe a pack of humans.


I have trail cam pics of a bear on a bait 15 minutes behind 4 beagles visiting the bait. I have pics of me starting a bear off a bait at 9:00 with 3 hounds if the camera doesnt lie another bear was eating on the bait at 9:50 with 6 hounds treed on the first bear less then a half mile from the bait. Maybe he was deaf or dumb, but maybe he just wasnt all that concerned about dogs that werent coming up right behind him. Just the other night I treed a ****, the dog only stayed on the tree for a couple minutes then continued on to tree further up the ridge. I walked up to the first tree to see if he had actually left a ****. As I approached a deer 
jumped from its bed less then 75 yards from were the dog had just been barking. This deer and bear were in the same general area so maybe they were both deaf and dumb. I cant even tell you how many times I have run bear off baits only to have another bear there within a few hours, or how many times I walked into a **** tree with roaring dogs only to see a deer or 2 bedded down within easy hearing range of the dogs, often 100 yards or so.


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## Beaverhunter2

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Neal, you're right, MBHA is Michigan Bear Hunters Association. Although there are some members and a couple board members I count as friends,
> I consider MBHA to be basically a downstate organization that's mostly concerned about downstate issues.
> 
> Swampbuck, MBHA initiated the bobcat suit on their own and they sure as hell don't speak for all of us.


Rooster is correct. The MBHA initiated the lawsuit. Then the Michigan Hunting Dog Federation came out publicly in support (of the lawsuit). Don't believe me? Ask Mike Thorman. I was there when he said the MHDF did support it. And when I asked the UP Bear Houndsmen's rep at the Furbearer Workgroup Meetng if they supported it- he dodged the question. So I asked if they would come out in opposition to the lawsuit, and he looked at his shoes and walked away. 

Not trying to start a fight. Just stating the facts.

John


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## kentg

Bearboy said:


> Bear dogs have little effect on bear movement. About ten minutes after a chase bears return to their original habits. Research from the university of Wisconsin.
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


 The bears in the hound area become totally nocturnal and often leave the area for a week or until the hound hunters go home for good.


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## Nostromo

kentg said:


> The bears in the hound area become totally nocturnal and often leave the area for a week or until the hound hunters go home for good.


I really don't think thats the case. When the hound season starts. There is a tremendous increase in activity in the forest. Bird hunters, bear hunters, hikers, anglers, folks just looking at the leaves. That there are changes in animal activity goes with out saying. But, running them off completely? No, I don't believe that is the case. 

Good hunting!


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