# Little Man



## Ultra-Light

> I don't know why I bother complaining about snaggers and trash left by snaggers. Too many people on this site just don't care or miss the point.


No offense to you or anybody else here.... It really is not the point for people who don't care, (Because littering probably bothers me more than most. In fact, (Over the years) I have donated thousands of dollars for cleanup efforts), but... you will come to realize there is no point embedding personal generalizations and attach them to a requested/posted fishing report. 

To some, the efforts are compelling, but for others it might not be.


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## Halffasthog

So, every foul hooked fish is intentional? To fish with a cleo, you must be snagging? Is it possible that he only foul hooked the fish accidentally? Beginners are often mistakenly labelled snaggers. I don't think it's right to condemn people without knowing for sure what the intention is.


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## swmfdotcom

HEy I was wondering????????????If I am fly fishing on the Little Man and foul hook a fish,but yet release it.................am I considered a CLOSET CLYDE...........:lol::lol::lol:


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## brookies101

wow, this one got out of hand quick, didn't it? To each his own


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## itchn2fish

So, has anyone heard any word on Kings running up the Little Man yet?Could be a good year with all this rain.


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## thousandcasts

> So, every foul hooked fish is intentional? To fish with a cleo, you must be snagging? Is it possible that he only foul hooked the fish accidentally? Beginners are often mistakenly labelled snaggers. I don't think it's right to condemn people without knowing for sure what the intention is.


Here's how it works year after year. A rookie decides that he wants to give salmon fishing a try. He heads up to where he's been told he should go. He gets there and the only clue he's been given about it is what the guy at the bait shop told him. Depending on the bait shop, he's either given good advice or really bad advice. Cletus, Clem, Joe Bob and Boo are tearing the place up with fish after fish. Rookie, meanwhile, ain't gittin' ****, so to speak. He then asks Clem for advice...bad move. Guess who's rippin' 'em up after that? 

Now, the above is what I've seen time after time while doing the river watch at Tippy and from just spending time at other spots. Hopefully, you can help the guy out before he gets to the point of needing Clem to show him the ropes. However, here's where one can easily distance themselves from the above: 

1) Read...both your rule book as well as articles on the type of fishing you want to pursue. 

2) See Above. 

If you put a hook in the water during salmon season, you will end up foul hooking a fish from time to time. It's inevitable. However, the line is crossed when you put said fish on a stringer. People can defend that all they want, but the simple fact remains that if you don't read the rule book and you don't have enough common sense to even do that before you start hitting the river, then enjoy the ticket. Never mind that in most places, you have those big yellow signs that say, "Closed to liberalized fishing--NO SNAGGING." That alone should make one ask a question if they don't "get it." 

However, that whole scenario above applies to maybe 1 out of 500 people. Give me a break, it's the same locals and out of staters, year after year who go tearin' up the little man and other places. Whether it's Clem rippin' at the tubes, or Pablo spearing kings out of Plaster Creek in Grand Rapids, it's the same bunch thing year after year. It gets old...right along with the "well what if they don't know they're in the wrong" defense that comes up on these threads every year. 

1) READ.

2) See above.


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## stelmon

DrEw8716 said:


> Well when everyone is done arguing let me know if the kinglies are in yet???


Why not just go and have fun????

I already fished the little M for kings, but would never dare to post a report on this site about it, or ask about it. Its more fun that way then knowing the outcome before you even go fishing. 


Probably won't go again now that the river will be getting molested from here on out because of the few people that feel they need to post on this site and other about a few kings that might of entered the little m and other rivers.


BTW, for anyone that feels they want to fish the little m. I'll tell you how it will be til the closer. You will have to walk a lot of miles for a few pods of kings. It's not easy fishing for summer run kings. Its more like work then anything. It's not something you should expect to catch fish every time out like during the peak in the fall. *You just need to go and fish!!*:SHOCKED::SHOCKED::SHOCKED:


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## thousandcasts

stelmon said:


> Why not just go and have fun????
> 
> I already fished the little M for kings, but would never dare to post a report on this site about it, or ask about it. Its more fun that way then knowing the outcome before you even go fishing.
> 
> 
> Probably won't go again now that the river will be getting molested from here on out because of the few people that feel they need to post on this site and other about a few kings that might of entered the little m and other rivers.
> 
> 
> BTW, for anyone that feels they want to fish the little m. I'll tell you how it will be til the closer. You will have to walk a lot of miles for a few pods of kings. It's not easy fishing for summer run kings. Its more like work then anything. It's not something you should expect to catch fish every time out like during the peak in the fall. *You just need to go and fish!!*:SHOCKED::SHOCKED::SHOCKED:


I can see why guys would ask the question. I mean, with $4.15 a gallon at the pump, you kinda have to keep the wild goose chases to a minimum. For example, I can tell you that I started getting my kings on cranks and skein, in a certain place, the third weekend in July last year. If X happens to the big lake, and y happens with the winds and maybe Z = some rain, then I can safely say that I'll be popping kings in that certain place at the same time this year. However, I'm sure I'll send out a couple PM's to others "in the know," before I hitch up the boat and make a run, ya know? :lol:


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## mechanical head

I would just like to go on Record here and mention that Crazy Larry and I go way back and were old pals (Grand River days Late 80s)....With that said I should have free pass and not have to worry about the 18" Fillet knife hidden in the brush...

See you at the tubes!!!

Oh yeah, just to add some substance to the thread, the Watermelon little Cleo is one deadliest lures of all time, fished early mornings or late evening under the right conditions you'll get violent strikes from early running Scams, Kings, Cohos and Lake run browns...And to the best of my knowledge it doesn't matter what color rod your using while fishing...

More substance, for those in the don't know...It's much easier to snag with a 10' leader and a small fly (yellow rod or $800 Sage) than it is with a Cleo..


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## Kevin

thousandcasts said:


> I can see why guys would ask the question. I mean, with $4.15 a gallon at the pump, you kinda have to keep the wild goose chases to a minimum.


Key point. Many people's resources - including free time, is at a premium.
But of course, no one can predict how you will do no matter what the conditions are, and no one can fish it for you.


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## thousandcasts

> More substance, for those in the don't know...It's much easier to snag with a 10' leader and a small fly (yellow rod or $800 Sage) than it is with a Cleo..


Depends on the color. A black stone is much better than an oregon cheese egg. More subtle and covert. :evilsmile


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## Nighttimer

mechanical head said:


> I would just like to go on Record here and mention that Crazy Larry and I go way back and were old pals (Grand River days Late 80s)....With that said I should have free pass and not have to worry about the 18" Fillet knife hidden in the brush...
> 
> See you at the tubes!!!


Tell Crazy Larry I said hello! He might remember the time he threatened to stab me for having the audacity to fish downstream of the tubes 150 yards.



> More substance, for those in the don't know...It's much easier to snag with a 10' leader and a small fly (yellow rod or $800 Sage) than it is with a Cleo..


Boy you just can't miss an opportunity to take a shot at fly fisherman.


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## mechanical head

Who rattled your cage Matt!!! Its just my shot back after for The River Runs Though It Slam....I've been looking for the right window and I ceased the moment...

What do you expect your cutting off the run wandering around down there?? Next time up there I'll run you by his place, he won't remember me but if we bring enough beer, gut, some smokes, and a new SS magnum fillet knife well be welcome right in..You'll soon have free rain of the river...

Best to leave the chest pack at home though, that may not go over...

Is it salmon season yet???


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## Nighttimer

My bad, Denny. I guess I can't hide my elitist fly fishing attitude. A River Runs Through It taught me to behave this way. You know its the only reason I fly fish. Sometimes you lowly bait dunkers get on my nerves. You think I enjoy catching 22" browns with empty bait containers laying around? 

I would stop by Crazy Larry's with you but I'm worried his trailer/meth lab might blow up. Just send my best regards when you're there. Tell him I'll take my turn at the tubes throwing rocks next week to be sure the kings don't want to move upstream during the night.


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## steelheader12345

im confused, so if i use a yellow ultra lite eagle claw fly rod with a 1/16oz panther martin on the end of it im snagging?


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## ESOX

steelheader12345 said:


> im confused, so if i use an ultra lite eagle claw fly rod with a 1/16oz panther martin on the end of it im snagging?


No, but if instead of using 150 yards of mono you opt for only 10' you must be snagging. Some of the stupidest "reasoning" I have ever encountered.


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## Ultra-Light

Hell with the rocks, retractable chicken wire across tube #1 & #2 works much better. :chillin:


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## DrEw8716

I'm am pretty aware of how un easy it is to catch kings in the little man in July...I just wanted a report...o well I find it rather pointless to ask now....


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## Ultra-Light

> I just wanted a report...o well I find it rather pointless to ask now....


In reply #15, there was a link supplied to a some what reliable source for Manistee Area fishing reports. Usually, there is 2 key element words Photo Shopped onto the virtual chalk board. 

1. "Trout" are the order of the day. 

*or*

2. "*July Kings"* are starting to migrate upstream, & have now become the order of the day.

It gives you a rough idea of when the fish start migrating upstream. If for some reason you cannot access up-to-date fishing reports with the supplied link, reply #16 gives possible reasons why. :lol:


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## unclecbass

Im with flyfishattorney on this one, regardless of what manner of fishing you enjoy, people need to be aware that certain methods of fishing are not benificial to the river. I think most of the snaggers know exactly what they are up to and have simply been fortunate enough to avoid the dnr.


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## Whit1

Fishslayer5789 said:


> LOL I heard it from Chad but Joe told me the story about the "30 lb cat" about 2 weeks ago and at the time, he said it was 35 lbs so it looks like this story is starting to shrink so it will look more realistic. :lol:


 
A fish that SHRINKS after being caught? Who ever heard of such a thing!!! :lol:


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## Fish Eye

The yellow rod comment is indicative of the snobbery of the floss-n-snag chuck in duckers. Some how they think if they're holding a $700 fly rod in their hand they're uber sportsmen. Half the flyrodders in this state couldn't tip cast 25 feet of fly line, the other 40% couldn't make it to 40 feet, and most don't understand the methodology of making fish bite as they lack the Fish Eye. Yet these people put on the "uniform" and think they're better than you, kind of like buying a membership to the country club. Don't you believe it baby. King Salmon don't eat size 18 Prince Nymphs and could care less if it's presented on a 14 foot 6X leader. They will take a nice blob of skein on 14 lbs. line thank you very much! At best you flyrodders can fish streamers and be out fished 3 to 1 by sticks and cranks...and that is on a good bite day for the fly rods. Most days it would be 4 or 5 to 1.

As a follow up, yes, I did catch a nice hex brown last weekend that was brought to the net in under a minute....and yes, I caught this bad dog Thurs. night on a yellow Ugly Stik Lite. Fishing is on!!! Yehawww!


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## Pike Eyes

I think that we as people who fish should stick together. Whether we fly fish, fish with spinners, cranks, spawn etc. We all have one thing in common and that is the passion for our sport that we try to do with every available minute we have. Just because someone isn't using the "Best of the Best" in equipment doesn't mean that we should belittle them. Maybe they have never been shown the proper techniques or equipment. Maybe they work for minimum wage and can only afford a "YELLOW" rod. Next time strike up a conversation and maybe help them out a bit, instead of getting away as quick as possible to that next honey hole to watch from a far and making some false judgements. We should quit being critics and start becomeing educators to make things better. By the way has anyone had any luck this weekend on the Lil M?


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## stinger63

Fish Eye said:


> The yellow rod comment is indicative of the snobbery of the floss-n-snag chuck in duckers. Some how they think if they're holding a $700 fly rod in their hand they're uber sportsmen. Half the flyrodders in this state couldn't tip cast 25 feet of fly line, the other 40% couldn't make it to 40 feet, and most don't understand the methodology of making fish bite as they lack the Fish Eye. Yet these people put on the "uniform" and think they're better than you, kind of like buying a membership to the country club. Don't you believe it baby. King Salmon don't eat size 18 Prince Nymphs and could care less if it's presented on a 14 foot 6X leader. They will take a nice blob of skein on 14 lbs. line thank you very much! At best you flyrodders can fish streamers and be out fished 3 to 1 by sticks and cranks...and that is on a good bite day for the fly rods. Most days it would be 4 or 5 to 1.
> 
> As a follow up, yes, I did catch a nice hex brown last weekend that was brought to the net in under a minute....and yes, I caught this bad dog Thurs. night on a yellow Ugly Stik Lite. Fishing is on!!! Yehawww!


Nice fish is this the brown you caught or something else?Looks realy kinda of different what is it?


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## Chuck1

Thousandcasts is dead on. Anyone that knows about what goes on down there already knows. We do not need to post it for 1000 lurkers. You can go over this thread and PM the guys you think have a clue. 7, or 8 years ago you could hang out at the second hole all day with the same couple dudes, now look at it. I blame the internet, and I was also guilty of typing to much myself. Lesson learned. Now Little Jon and the Eastside boys have the hole all jacked up. Jackasses standing on the tube trying to jerk them out. I remember when the fish would actually stick around in the holes for awhile. Now your best bet is to go way up and try to wrestle one out of the jungle LOL.


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## swmfdotcom

I dont think it really matters what method of fishing is used,fly,spinning,baggin,or cranking. 

I will agree the only way to say that a fish is not lined is a striaght on hit,or is it,can a fish be lined out of the back of a boat,"yeah",99% likely,"NO",but if someone is using a fly rod on the Little Man(or spinning) or there at Tippy using a spinning rod and they are both tossing flies with split shot 2 feet up from the hook whats the differance there aint none or in most peoples mind using spinning gear with flies or wabble glows at Tippy or at Berrien for that matter and have a 6 to 8 foot leader comming off there split shot,there isnt no differance then fishing with a fly rod,and if someone says that there is,proove it,show me the video of when you had your snorkle and googles on and watched it in action,you fish your way and let everyone else fish there way. Am i tring to justify the snaggers,NO,everyone here has foul hooked,and linned,if you say you havent your a bald faced liar.

I fish all ways,pin,spinning,fly,from the back of a boat,drift,float,but just because i got my fly rod it means im tring to snag a fish or,lets come to modern terms and say "Clyde it Up",hell no,dont agree with it my fishing rights are worth more then lossing it.

MOst of these post and discussions on here are people that problably fish once in a while and spend the rest of there time on yahoo and aint go nothing better to do but to stir the pot.


Good luck on the water this year everyone,and keep an eye out for those Clydes and those Critics.


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## FlyFishingAttorney

Fished it today.

Caught a few trout.

Saw no salmon. I was fishing in Lake County.


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## Frogfish101

Fish Eye said:


> The yellow rod comment is indicative of the snobbery of the floss-n-snag chuck in duckers. Some how they think if they're holding a $700 fly rod in their hand they're uber sportsmen. Half the flyrodders in this state couldn't tip cast 25 feet of fly line, the other 40% couldn't make it to 40 feet, and most don't understand the methodology of making fish bite as they lack the Fish Eye. Yet these people put on the "uniform" and think they're better than you, kind of like buying a membership to the country club. Don't you believe it baby. King Salmon don't eat size 18 Prince Nymphs and could care less if it's presented on a 14 foot 6X leader. They will take a nice blob of skein on 14 lbs. line thank you very much! At best you flyrodders can fish streamers and be out fished 3 to 1 by sticks and cranks...and that is on a good bite day for the fly rods. Most days it would be 4 or 5 to 1.
> 
> As a follow up, yes, I did catch a nice hex brown last weekend that was brought to the net in under a minute....and yes, I caught this bad dog Thurs. night on a yellow Ugly Stik Lite. Fishing is on!!! Yehawww!


You may catch more fish, but I have more fun fishing streamers. Seriously, watching your big ole red/white round float swirl in an eddy all day is EXCITING! 

Unlike many of the guys here, I really don't care about getting my limit. There's a reason we have supermarkets.

I'll take my flyrod over a spinning stick anyday.

Oh, BTW. Salmon will also hit egg flies along with streamers. Don't try to argue it either.


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## riverman

Frogfish101 said:


> Unlike many of the guys here, I really don't care about getting my limit. There's a reason we have supermarkets.
> 
> I'll take my flyrod over a spinning stick anyday.
> 
> .


And I'll take a mint chrome steelhead fresh out of the lake late Nov/Dec for the table over ANY fish in a supermarket. There is a reason we are able to harvest fish and enjoy them, but some will never appreciate or even try to see the entire painting.


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## quest32a

Frogfish101 said:


> You may catch more fish, but I have more fun fishing streamers. Seriously, watching your big ole red/white round float swirl in an eddy all day is EXCITING!


Fun is all in the eye of the beholder. Me I kinda enjoy seeing my bobber go down. Or see a plug rod get hit so hard you can't even pull it out of the rod holder. 
I fish the methods that put the most fish in the boat. If the fish are hitting dries, then I fish dries. But if they want hardware I will be the 1st one running and gunning with plugs. I am a versatile angler.


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## Ultra-Light

quest32a said:


> Fun is all in the eye of the beholder. *Me I kinda enjoy seeing my bobber go down.*


Especially when the offering down below gets hits so hard, it skips upstream!


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## Whit1

quest32a said:


> Fun is all in the eye of the beholder. Me I kinda enjoy seeing my bobber go down. Or see a plug rod get hit so hard you can't even pull it out of the rod holder.
> I fish the methods that put the most fish in the boat. If the fish are hitting dries, then I fish dries. But if they want hardware I will be the 1st one running and gunning with plugs. I am a versatile angler.


 
There ya go John, posting some common sense about being a versatile angler. You versatile angler types do catch trout and when some of the one-way-one types see ya do that  they don't like it so you stop being versatile ya hear!!!! :lol:

Humor guys, all in good humor.


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## Frogfish101

quest32a said:


> Fun is all in the eye of the beholder. Me I kinda enjoy seeing my bobber go down. Or see a plug rod get hit so hard you can't even pull it out of the rod holder.
> I fish the methods that put the most fish in the boat. If the fish are hitting dries, then I fish dries. But if they want hardware I will be the 1st one running and gunning with plugs. I am a versatile angler.


 I can see your point, but I personally don't care if I get outfished. To me, flyfishing is much more fun than float fishing or trolling. There's no reason for stuck-up and snob comments like the one posted by Fish Eye. Don't get me wrong, I pick up the spinning stick all the time, especially in FL. However, I fish for the challenge, not the table fare.

Riverman, I would rather take tilapia or grouper anyday over steel. IMO, they're not the BEST tasting fish out there.


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## Fishslayer5789

stinger63 said:


> Nice fish is this the brown you caught or something else?Looks realy kinda of different what is it?


 
It's lookin' like a little muskie. Nice fish! Those scare you have to death when they hit topwater right next to the boat. I just about had a heart attack last year when I tried it in the Taquamenon River in the U.P. last summer.


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## Frogfish101

I'll hand it to you...:lol:

But in all seriousness, why would they hit skein but not an egg fly? I agree that proclaiming salmon hit caddis and stone patterns are pure BS.


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## Ultra-Light

Frogfish101 said:


> But in all seriousness, why would they hit skein but not an egg fly?


Scent. Besides, it is uncommon practice for one to use chunks of fish eggs in fish reproduction areas.


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## Steelhead Addict

is it september yet? the threads are getting and early start this year.


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## Ultra-Light

> is it september yet? the threads are getting and early start this year.


Nah....... The chinook salmon do not start migrating upstream in September on the 'Little Man That Can'. Everyone just assumes they start migrating upstream in July.... :chillin:


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## thousandcasts

Steelhead Addict said:


> is it september yet? the threads are getting and early start this year.


Eh...it's like watching "COPS." No matter how many years it's been on, you never get tired of seeing someone get tazed.


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## dreihl

FlyFishingAttorney said:


> Fished it today.
> 
> Caught a few trout.
> 
> Saw no salmon. I was fishing in Lake County.


There you have it. Nothin' to see here. Keep walking. Check back in September.


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## stelmon

Chuck1 said:


> Thousandcasts is dead on. Anyone that knows about what goes on down there already knows. We do not need to post it for 1000 lurkers. You can go over this thread and PM the guys you think have a clue. 7, or 8 years ago you could hang out at the second hole all day with the same couple dudes, now look at it. I blame the internet, and I was also guilty of typing to much myself. Lesson learned. Now Little Jon and the Eastside boys have the hole all jacked up. Jackasses standing on the tube trying to jerk them out. I remember when the fish would actually stick around in the holes for awhile. Now your best bet is to go way up and try to wrestle one out of the jungle LOL.


So true! There isn't to many magazines, bait shops, or shows doing shoots on the Little like they do during the peak season. I wonder where all the September crowds during July come from for so few salmon. It wasn't like this a few years ago. I also blame the internet. To bad people couldn't keep there mouth shut about a precious small fishery were so lucky to have then telling thousands of people about it.


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## Whit1

Guys, don't go altering a member's post even if it's in fun and good humor. That has happened in another forum, with a bit more seriousness and the potential nightmare for the mods in keeping the piece is not pretty. You know how easily things can be misinterpreted on these boards.

Although Hutch knew enough not to include the member's name in his altered quote....sorta like altered states which many of us find ourselves in from time to time, especially Hutch :lol:.....and really, I believe, meant it in good humor...something Clive certainly would do if he could read and do cipherin' on a 'puter....that little gambit could be used to raise havoc and we sometimes have enough of that already.


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## Frogfish101

No harm done Whit. I knew TC only meant it as a joke.


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## friZZleFry419

July 2007


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## streamertosser

Pike Eyes said:


> I think that we as people who fish should stick together. Whether we fly fish, fish with spinners, cranks, spawn etc. We all have one thing in common and that is the passion for our sport that we try to do with every available minute we have. Just because someone isn't using the "Best of the Best" in equipment doesn't mean that we should belittle them. Maybe they have never been shown the proper techniques or equipment. Maybe they work for minimum wage and can only afford a "YELLOW" rod. Next time strike up a conversation and maybe help them out a bit, instead of getting away as quick as possible to that next honey hole to watch from a far and making some false judgements. We should quit being critics and start becomeing educators to make things better. By the way has anyone had any luck this weekend on the Lil M?


 

I completly agree with you. when i was about 14 i seen a guy catching the hell out of rainbow plants just south of Alcona dam, he was throwin flies and it was producing and nothing else was, so the three days i had already been up there not catching anything. so after talking to him for a little bit each day i was there, he was(catching fish) he convinced me to come up with a fly rod. So i found one at my grandfather's place it happened to be an old montague split bamboo fly rod and a k-mart south bend reel, and i didn't know the quality of the rod or the lack thereof of the reel, completly innocent and dumb to the idea of fly fishing.

I picked up some line at the glennie hardware store and started throwing the same flies he was throwing (royal wulff #14 and a blue winged olive #14) that got me started for the first couple days, then i broke the tip section on the bamboo and talked to the guy i had been seeing there and told him about it, he explained how fly lines have weights and that i was casting much too heavy of a line for the 4 weight bamboo rod, i had it spooled with some 7w sink tip, and that's probably what did the old rod in. i was bummed out about breaking the rod. but on our way back to gramp's i had my dad stop at the hardware again and i bought one of them "yellow rods". the next day i started fly fishing on on my "yellow rod" and i fished that rod and reel the rest of that summer until the screws fell out. 
as the next couple years went on, i aquired an old jw young and sons beaudex reel at an estate sale and fly fished with my "yellow rod" off and on, then with help from a more knowledgable person i began learning more and more about fly fishing, and fly fising tackle, and now i wont say im an expert, far from it, but i sure as hell know alot more than the 14yr old kid who wasn't catching fish one summer, and it's because some total stranger was willing to take some time and explain a new method of fishing to me that was completly un-familiar to myself and my father who has taught me an awful lot about regular fishing but didn't have the knowledge to teach me about fly fishing.

I no longer use the "yellow rod" and the reel(whats left of it) is in the back of a drawer in the tackle tool box, the montague is in the back bedroom amongst my collection of vintage fishing and hunting gear still with the broken tip. im now using a much better quality setup, but to this day i dont think i've caught half as many fish on it as i did on that "yellow rod" 

It wasn't until i read the above quote from pike eyes that i realized i have caught myself placing judgements on some people out there who just might not know any better. sorry for my little life story of fly fishing, but what he said made me think back on when i first got into the game and i thank him for that.


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## thousandcasts

I hear you about the "we all need to stick together," mentality and I absolutely agree with that. However, here's the problem and it's the absolute source of the never ending "fly vs. bait" argument: 

While I fish many techniques, my bread and butter method year round is spawn...which makes me a bait fisherman by category. I do not care how someone else is fishing as long as it's legal. However, if you follow any of the typical debates and heated arguments, bait fishermen as a whole have been forced to the defensive due to continued efforts by some in the fly fishing community to impose regulations that only favor their style of fishing.

Some guys fly fish because that's what they choose to do and they have fun with it. Great...that's the way it should be. I always say this to the, for the sake of argument I'll call them the elitists, sit down, relax, enjoy a nice hot cup of shut the **** up and enjoy what you do. Let me enjoy what I do. 

If that were the case, there wouldn't be these endless debates. I can't remember who said it a few years ago, but "fling what ya bring and have a good time." 

As long as there's that vocal presence in the fly fishing community that continually goes on the offensive to limit use by those of us who favor other methods, then our time is going to be spent defending that and not trying to address real issues that affect our fisheries.

It's as simple as that.


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## abstract_72

That is well said. Probably a good place to end this circle o' fun.


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## sweet tree

agreed...the elitist attitude is silly and divides anglers into different camps. This is destructive to the whole sport. Unfortunetly this arguement has been going of for generations and is unlikely to end soon.

People just need to relax and be mindful of other anglers and their right to fish accordingly. There are bigger problems facing OUR fishery than worm dunking or feather tossing.


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## Frogfish101

Hopefully I didn't come off as Elitist, and I never meant too. I just meant that I enjoy flyfishing and that's why I primarily do it. In no way did I mean to insult other anglers. I baitfish all the time, especially in Florida. I also chuck hardware year round for bass, pike, and 'eyes.


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## thousandcasts

Frogfish101 said:


> Hopefully I didn't come off as Elitist, and I never meant too. I just meant that I enjoy flyfishing and that's why I primarily do it. In no way did I mean to insult other anglers. I baitfish all the time, especially in Florida. I also chuck hardware year round for bass, pike, and 'eyes.


I define being elitist as those who think everyone should be fly fishing and fly fishing only. That'd be like me saying that every fly fisherman should fish spawn and spawn only...and push for laws that made it that way. I would never do that however...as a spawn fisherman, I very much enjoy catching more fish than them. :evilsmile


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## swmfdotcom

thousandcasts said:


> I define being elitist as those who think everyone should be fly fishing and fly fishing only. That'd be like me saying that every fly fisherman should fish spawn and spawn only...and push for laws that made it that way. I would never do that however...as a spawn fisherman, I very much enjoy catching more fish than them. :evilsmile


I some what beg to differ from you Hutch.........atleast in some places.
Maybe on a bigger river like the Grand or Manistee,But I know a few select places on the Joe as well as the Dowagiac that fly fishers out score bait fishers and any source of spinning gear 4-1,and I've seen it and done it many times,But I still believe a "hint" of your theory stands true.


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## thousandcasts

swmfdotcom said:


> I some what beg to differ from you Hutch.........atleast in some places.
> Maybe on a bigger river like the Grand or Manistee,But I know a few select places on the Joe as well as the Dowagiac that fly fishers out score bait fishers and any source of spinning gear 4-1,and I've seen it and done it many times,But I still believe a "hint" of your theory stands true.


Flies or anything else presented with a 10' leader don't count.


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## ESOX

thousandcasts said:


> Flies or anything else presented with a 10' leader don't count.


No, presenting something on 10' of mono doesn't count. It has to be on at least 100 yards of mono before it means anything.


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## Splitshot

Steve has it right. Most fishermen are not elitists and most fly fishermen are not elitists either. Actually I dont believe the small group of elitists want you to become fly fishermen TC. They only want more for themselves. Besides this small group think they are superior people and the DNR reinforces that attitude by giving them special privileges just because they want them. 

It is similar to the racial experiment that Jane Elliott tested on her 3rd grade class. Jane Elliott told her pupils a pseudo-scientific explanation of how eye colour defined people: blue eyes showed people who were cleverer, quicker, more likely to succeed. They were superior to people with brown eyes, who were described untrustworthy, lazy and stupid.

Jane Elliott was amazed at the speedy transformation in her class. The superior blue-eyed children became arrogant, and were bossy and unpleasant to their brown-eyed class mates. 

We know when the experiment was over those third grade children learned the lesson. When you give people special privileges they havent earned, one shouldnt be surprised that they conclude it is because they are somehow superior and like Janes third grade class became arrogant, bossy and unpleasant.

The solution of course is to take away those un-scientific privileges under the pretense that without those special privileges they will revert to fishermen again and that would stop most of it.


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## Whit1

Splitshot said:


> It is similar to the racial experiment that Jane Elliott tested on her 3rd grade class. Jane Elliott told her pupils a pseudo-scientific explanation of how eye colour defined people: blue eyes showed people who were cleverer, quicker, more likely to succeed. They were superior to people with brown eyes, who were described untrustworthy, lazy and stupid.
> 
> Jane Elliott was amazed at the speedy transformation in her class. The superior blue-eyed children became arrogant, and were bossy and unpleasant to their brown-eyed class mates.
> 
> We know when the experiment was over those third grade children learned the lesson. When you give people special privileges they havent earned, one shouldnt be surprised that they conclude it is because they are somehow superior and like Janes third grade class became arrogant, bossy and unpleasant.


I did that same thing many years ago in a sixth grade class when I taught in Wyoming, MI. With the permission of the every parent I designated a day when blue and green eyed students were designated as being "superior" and were treated as such for the entire day. The brown and hazel eye students were put down. The next day the roles were reversed. The follow-up discussion was quite revealing and interesting and support what you say in Jane's 3rd grade class.


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## JCM

....more often than not it is not even the topic at hand that is the problem. The single biggest problem (In my experience anyway) is the periphial stress(s) in people's lives that affect their personality and have a negative impact on the way they express themselves. 

Enough of my analysis, but I must say your analysis on this "techniques and stick together" topic were right on. We need to fish and forget the garbage. I swear it's like the topic of the weather.............it always is something that you can talk (argue) about if you want to. 

Have a good rest of the summer and we'll see you this fall at the watch...........unless of course you make up a paper thin excuse, then we'll have to read through another one!

Best to you.

Jim




thousandcasts said:


> I hear you about the "we all need to stick together," mentality and I absolutely agree with that. However, here's the problem and it's the absolute source of the never ending "fly vs. bait" argument:
> 
> While I fish many techniques, my bread and butter method year round is spawn...which makes me a bait fisherman by category. I do not care how someone else is fishing as long as it's legal. However, if you follow any of the typical debates and heated arguments, bait fishermen as a whole have been forced to the defensive due to continued efforts by some in the fly fishing community to impose regulations that only favor their style of fishing.
> 
> Some guys fly fish because that's what they choose to do and they have fun with it. Great...that's the way it should be. I always say this to the, for the sake of argument I'll call them the elitists, sit down, relax, enjoy a nice hot cup of shut the **** up and enjoy what you do. Let me enjoy what I do.
> 
> If that were the case, there wouldn't be these endless debates. I can't remember who said it a few years ago, but "fling what ya bring and have a good time."
> 
> As long as there's that vocal presence in the fly fishing community that continually goes on the offensive to limit use by those of us who favor other methods, then our time is going to be spent defending that and not trying to address real issues that affect our fisheries.
> 
> It's as simple as that.


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## swmfdotcom

thousandcasts said:


> Flies or anything else presented with a 10' leader don't count.


 
Come on bro I dont fling nothing longer then 9'11" so give me a break.:lol:


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## friZZleFry419

you guys must have brown eyes:evilsmile,,literaly!!!!


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## thousandcasts

Eh, the NW forum is usually a ghost town. If it weren't for these salmon threads, you'd start to see tumble weeds blowing through here.


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## Fishndude

True dat. And nobody is even asking about Kings in the little river anymore.:lol:


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## Philips

DHise said:


> Are there kings in the Little Man yet?


Just had to stir the pot didn't you? :lol: I had been resisting the urge to say the same thing, but I see Hise couldn't hold back any longer.


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## wally-eye

The PM has a "few" early arrivals.........



Editted for unnamed rivers...
quest


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## bigsablemike

Mr Jinx said:


> FlyFishAttorney,
> 
> I agree with your zeal for protecting Michigan's resources from the Clydes with huge treble hooks. However, I veture a guess that those that utilize this board and contribute to it are not the yellow-rodded snaggers you speak of. An inference to such is really quite condescending to those good sportsmen trying to learn by utilizing this website as a tool. I sure as heck did. My dad was never an outdoorsman so in my adulthood I had to educate myself and was lucky enough to find this great site. That combined with the helpful information from a few active members here has gotten me hooked on river fishing for life. Without some of the things I learnt here I would have never had success. Heck I might have listened to some of the shaddy tackle shops and the snaggers not knowing any better.
> 
> As to the original question, I'm sure they are a few early Kings in there with the rain. However, I would also venture it is not really in fishable numbers yet. Try some 1/16 oz spinners and try to get a trout to go.


 
if you think that the yellow rodders arent lurking and using these reports you are naive to say the least.


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## Ultra-Light

> if you think that the yellow rodders arent lurking and using these reports you are naive to say the least.


*The green hook on my yellow rod almost resembles a green caddis bug. It still catches fish though, so what difference does it make.*









*The SpongeBob rod is my favorite. The best part about this rod is, it comes with a free SpongeBob bobber & portable fishing box. It can handle anything I throw at. *









I suppose I am not allowed to use this fishing report page as a reference for my next fishing trip. I am sorry if I cannot afford a 500.00+ setup & that my yellow rods offend you.


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## fishn' 4 life

Mr Jinx said:


> FlyFishAttorney,
> 
> I agree with your zeal for protecting Michigan's resources from the Clydes with huge treble hooks. However, I veture a guess that those that utilize this board and contribute to it are not the yellow-rodded snaggers you speak of. An inference to such is really quite condescending to those good sportsmen trying to learn by utilizing this website as a tool. I sure as heck did. My dad was never an outdoorsman so in my adulthood I had to educate myself and was lucky enough to find this great site. That combined with the helpful information from a few active members here has gotten me hooked on river fishing for life. Without some of the things I learnt here I would have never had success. Heck I might have listened to some of the shaddy tackle shops and the snaggers not knowing any better.


I'm gonna have to agree with that since my story is very similar. That is not to say that there aren't people who would abuse information provided, but what harm can be done in educating people on the most effective proper ways to fish so they don't have to snag? The information to be abused would be locations of holes which is not allowed anyway. I think the bashing and degrading will only push away those who may be swayed to pursue the higher road that the vocal majority on this site advocate.


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## bunyanbug

I dont dislike anyone, but I caught a very foul mouth group snagging downstream from the bear track camp. My kids asked me why they were
talking that way. I replied to them, "because they are not fly fisherman".

I picked up their beer cans after they left.


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## Mr Jinx

Okay. Now THAT was funny!!!:lol:




Ultra-Light said:


> *The green hook on my yellow rod almost resembles a green caddis bug. It still catches fish though, so what difference does it make.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The SpongeBob rod is my favorite. The best part about this rod is, it comes with a free SpongeBob bobber & portable fishing box. It can handle anything I throw at. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I am not allowed to use this fishing report page as a reference for my next fishing trip. I am sorry if I cannot afford a 500.00+ setup & that my yellow rods offend you.


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## Mr Jinx

bigsablemike said:


> if you think that the yellow rodders arent lurking and using these reports you are naive to say the least.


Really? The ilk of which most have been speaking of here (Clydes) most likely don't even have internet access or the skill set to use it.

Even if they do or some non-clyde snagger is lurking, what pray-tell have they learnt from this thread? Hmmm... oh yeah they've gleamed that a supper majority of the users of this site have extreme distain for them and oh yeah, let's not forget no kings in fishable numbers yet. No holes, runs or top-secret honeypots have been disclosed. 

Let me save you the trouble of the "they'll know when the fish are in" retort. Please, like billy bob and bubba don't talk about that over a cool Meister Beru while gutting fish at the weir. But if we don't talk about it here they won't know right?

The guy asked a simple question. No terms of the posting policies where broken but now we have a 13 page long thread. 

seriously, what is the point of any posting then? I know my answer to that question. If it weren't for guys like Hutch and Whit I'd be lightyears behind where I'm at now fishing the river. Other members too helped. For that help I'm eternally thankful. Well, maybe not since those rappalas are pretty darn expensive!


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## thousandcasts

bunyanbug said:


> I dont dislike anyone, but I caught a very foul mouth group snagging downstream from the bear track camp. My kids asked me why they were
> talking that way. I replied to them, "because they are not fly fisherman".
> 
> I picked up their beer cans after they left.


Really...because fly fishermen aren't snagging?


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## Kevin

bunyanbug said:


> I dont dislike anyone, but I caught a very foul mouth group snagging downstream from the bear track camp. My kids asked me why they were
> talking that way. I replied to them, "because they are not fly fisherman".
> 
> I picked up their beer cans after they left.


Only non-fly fishermen cuss. Really?
Fly fishermen are superior in every aspect to all others?

Great lesson for the kids. :lol:


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## Shoeman

Kevin said:


> Only non-fly fishermen cuss. Really?
> Fly fishermen are superior in every aspect to all others?
> 
> Great lesson for the kids. :lol:




Yup, now would someone please give me a boost so I can get that ******** caddis off that ****** branch

:lol:


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## goemado

bigsablemike said:


> if you think that the yellow rodders arent lurking and using these reports you are naive to say the least.


 
OK, to partially highjack the thread and raising my hand as a member of the naive club -- real question: What exactly is the "yellow rod" that is mentioned in almost every thread on snagging? I'm assuming it's some pool cue-like rod used by most snaggers. 

Could someone please post/link a picture of this mysterious (only to me) implement?

Appreciate the education and apologize for the interruption/high jacking.


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## Fish Eye

Ultra-Light said:


> *Little Manistee Chinook Salmon 'Goto Bait' *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was once presented by G.B if you whip up one of these green bugs on a #24 hook, along with some high quality fluorocarbon leader to help mask the color of line being rubbed across the migratory fishes face, then apply several hundred agonizing repetitive shoulder casts throughout the day in fish reproduction areas, the migratory fish will eventually have the instinct to bite or just plain ole' eat it. :chillin:


Don't forget to impart action to those flies. I would suggest the yank and sweep method. In the course of the drift start with the rod pointed up stream of the drift, remove the slack line, then yank and sweep the rod downstream as quickly and forcefully as you can, then back upstream to your starting position with the same stroke.

Experienced flycatsers know caddis larvae, nymphs, and salmon eggs do not tumble downstream at the mercy of the current. These flies need forceful manipulation to appear natural to the fish. I see this technique being used by the successful flyfisherman who report hooking 25-50 fish a day. Let'er Rip!!!


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## stelmon

fishn' 4 life said:


> I'm gonna have to agree with that since my story is very similar. That is not to say that there aren't people who would abuse information provided, but what harm can be done in educating people on the most effective proper ways to fish so they don't have to snag? The information to be abused would be locations of holes which is not allowed anyway. I think the bashing and degrading will only push away those who may be swayed to pursue the higher road that the vocal majority on this site advocate.


There is *nothing* wrong with educating the public on *proper ways to fish* for walleye, salmon, or bluegill. However, telling the world that river x has fish in it is not needed. Especially, when the little river doesn't get all that much fish in it during the summer. You can have all the fish in the world in front of you, but without proper technique rather your flyfishing, spin fishing, or pinning, you won't catch those fish. That's what should be talked about here, rather then where people fished. It's nice to read fishing porn, but you learn the most from the people willing to talk about techniques. Not how someone who went 5-8 on the river x.


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## Fish Eye

goemado said:


> OK, to partially highjack the thread and raising my hand as a member of the naive club -- real question: What exactly is the "yellow rod" that is mentioned in almost every thread on snagging? I'm assuming it's some pool cue-like rod used by most snaggers.
> 
> Could someone please post/link a picture of this mysterious (only to me) implement?
> 
> Appreciate the education and apologize for the interruption/high jacking.


 
All this talk of yellow rods makes me want to take my Ugly Stik Lites to the little river to take the starch out of those flyrodders' shirts. That will give those blue bloods on the porch of the Indian Club something to talk about other than how well their oil stocks are doing! Just keep it up.


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## thousandcasts

goemado said:


> OK, to partially highjack the thread and raising my hand as a member of the naive club -- real question: What exactly is the "yellow rod" that is mentioned in almost every thread on snagging? I'm assuming it's some pool cue-like rod used by most snaggers.
> 
> Could someone please post/link a picture of this mysterious (only to me) implement?
> 
> Appreciate the education and apologize for the interruption/high jacking.


Here ya go! The Eagle Claw yellow rod! Minus the Ripco MF4000 Open face with 60lb crankcable mono.










Now, I know the yellow rods get a bad rap and from my perspective, rightfully so. When I actually see one on the river that doesn't have a 2/0 treble hook (with half a bag of yarn) or one of those lead hot dogs dangling off the end, then I might change my opinion. :lol:


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## Whit1

bunyanbug said:


> I dont dislike anyone, but I caught a very foul mouth group snagging downstream from the bear track camp. My kids asked me why they were
> talking that way. I replied to them, "*because they are not fly fisherman".*
> 
> I picked up their beer cans after they left.


Lousy answer! It disparages a whole group of anglers, including me, who rarely if ever fly fishes. This is exactly the type of comment that rips apart good will of angler toward angler.

If you were kidding then please insert some laughing emicons into your post.


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## foxfire69

Fish Eye said:


> All this talk of yellow rods makes me want to take my Ugly Stik Lites to the little river to take the starch out of those flyrodders' shirts. That will give those blue bloods on the porch of the Indian Club something to talk about other than how well their oil stocks are doing! Just keep it up.


May I join you? I sure am glad I bought Ugly Stiks (and other brands) instead of those pretty yeller rods 25 years ago even though it seemed they were the "ONLY salmon & steelhead catchin rods" on a SW pier!!


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## fishn' 4 life

stelmon said:


> There is *nothing* wrong with educating the public on *proper ways to fish* for walleye, salmon, or bluegill. However, telling the world that river x has fish in it is not needed. Especially, when the little river doesn't get all that much fish in it during the summer. You can have all the fish in the world in front of you, but without proper technique rather your flyfishing, spin fishing, or pinning, you won't catch those fish. That's what should be talked about here, rather then where people fished. It's nice to read fishing porn, but you learn the most from the people willing to talk about techniques. Not how someone who went 5-8 on the river x.


I agree. The only thing to remember is that some of us live a ways away (4 hours x $4.29/gal) and only can make it up a couple times a year. It is never convenient. Take last year for example, we had our first kid Aug 28th. You can bet it was a fight to go out with the guys much less leave for the weekend to fish! I always check reports to get the best idea I can whether or not the headache is worth it.


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## Ultra-Light

Fish Eye said:


> All this talk of yellow rods makes me want to take my Ugly Stik Lites to the little river *to take the starch out of those flyrodders' shirts*. That will give those blue bloods on the porch of the Indian Club something to talk about other than how well their oil stocks are doing! Just keep it up.


:lol:

May I suggest a "Yellow Rod Meet n' Greet" in a flies only section? I will even be glad to donate myself some brand spanking new ole' yeller Eagle Claw rods. If I pick up enough cans from all those other yellow rod slobs, I will be able to afford to buy me some brand new Eagle Claw gear. The last I checked, the rods were on sale for 14.99 + tax. That is roughly 300 beer cans for 2 rods, and approx. 20 cans to pay for the tax.

The only problem is though... I sold my Renzetti rotational vice around 10 years ago. I quit river fishing years ago for trout when the zebra mussels infestation took over particular known watersheds. I need someone to tie me up some green caddis bugs, because at the going rate at the nearest flyshop, it would cost me an additional 500 cans for a dozen flies. :chillin:


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## Mr Jinx

Krizzose said:


> I went 22 for 25 on Kings on the Little Man, all fairly hooked on dry flies. Like it's that hard....
> 
> \I'm Orvis endorsed and you're not.


 :lol::evil:

I went 25 for 22 on Kings on the Little Man!!! I'm Eagle Claw endorsed!!!:lol:


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## ausable_steelhead

> As someone who has fished his whole life, *who guides part time, has family members who guide & knows most guides *


And this means? How come people always feel they have to pull the guide card, like that's significant? I'd actually be embarrassed to be a guide around this part of the State, to be honest.


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## Halffasthog

Mr Jinx said:


> :lol::evil:
> 
> I went 25 for 22 on Kings on the Little Man!!! I'm Eagle Claw endorsed!!!:lol:


Priceless!!! I actually laughed out loud.


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## thousandcasts

Tell ya what...why don't you Clydes get back to me when you have one of these framed on your wall. Until then...enjoy your amatuer status!


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## Mitch

LMFAO!

You better believe that at one point in time that very vinyl graphic will end up on your boat.

:lol:

Mitch


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## Sin_X

thousandcasts said:


> Tell ya what...why don't you Clydes get back to me when you have one of these framed on your wall. Until then...enjoy your amatuer status!


Now that is way I enjoy reading these threads. :lol:

Too funny!


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## itchn2fish

This has been a fun one to follow.


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## thousandcasts

Mitch said:


> LMFAO!
> 
> You better believe that at one point in time that very vinyl graphic will end up on your boat.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> Mitch



You know me all too well, my friend! For the short term I was thinking t-shirts. I'll make sure yours has the proper title: 

"Mitch--Apprentice Clyde" 

:evilsmile


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## Mitch

thousandcasts said:


> You know me all too well, my friend! For the short term I was thinking t-shirts.


:lol::lol::lol:

Let me know when I can place my order...


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## Halffasthog

I got a T-shirt at BPS "Treble hookers-Too tough to tackle"


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## Percha Man

orvis weinies , snaggers , t-shirts, This is one hilarious thread....

Fish how you want and please don't comment to me unless it is to help and not belittle my way.. Yep I use spawn but I do not have a yellow pole ( yet ) yes I got plugs and flies why do you need one ? 

Sure go ahead and jump in the hole for a bit. My arms tired anyway...... 

why start with getting along that is why this thread is funny....


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## Philips

Percha Man said:


> Yep I use spawn....



Heathen...


----------



## Krizzose

Can I still be Orvis Endorsed if I use my fly gear to chuck and duck spawn? Orvis doesn't even know they've endorsed me yet, so I guess what they don't know won't hurt them. 

In all (no) seriousness though, the Little Manistee above the weir should be flies only. As we all know, spinning-gear salmon fishermen ruin the trout fishing for those who really are Orvis Endorsed, and we can't have that. Stay off _our_ river, you stinking riff-raff.


----------



## stelmon

Krizzose said:


> Can I still be Orvis Endorsed if I use my fly gear to chuck and duck spawn? Orvis doesn't even know they've endorsed me yet, so I guess what they don't know won't hurt them.
> 
> In all (no) seriousness though, the Little Manistee above the weir should be flies only. As we all know, spinning-gear salmon fishermen ruin the trout fishing for those who really are Orvis Endorsed, and we can't have that. Stay off _our_ river, you stinking riff-raff.





> Heathen...



I bet this thread is closed by Wednesday afternoon:lol::SHOCKED::16suspect


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## TSS Caddis

Krizzose said:


> Can I still be Orvis Endorsed if I use my fly gear to chuck and duck spawn? Orvis doesn't even know they've endorsed me yet, so I guess what they don't know won't hurt them.
> 
> In all (no) seriousness though, the Little Manistee above the weir should be flies only. As we all know, spinning-gear salmon fishermen ruin the trout fishing for those who really are Orvis Endorsed, and we can't have that. Stay off _our_ river, you stinking riff-raff.


Sure, I think "the Junkie" calls it the "Fusion" technique.


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## Halffasthog

Bring on the yellow rods with roller guides. I'll catch more fish than they will anyway.


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## bunyanbug

Halffasthog said:


> Bring on the yellow rods with roller guides. I'll catch more fish than they will anyway.


 
Amen. Make some fly rod money picking up their beer cans also:lol:


----------

