# undershot



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Pointerguy said:


> I'm going to put my two cents in, good teeth don't make a great bird dog. If you had a great bird with a under bite and your breeding because he is a top notch bird finder then I say go for it. I have one of them and I will be breeding him some day. If your breeding show dog's then you know the answer to that.


 
I just dont understand this thought process, we all love our dogs, they are all the best dogs in the world. But I promise there are far better dogs in this world then yours and mine that are all of quality breeding stock and as genetic free as is known.

But if we could stop the spread of genetic problems that cause folks tons of money, emotional energy, why would we not?


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

MEMO TO NEW PUPPY BUYERS:

Bad bites (ie. undershot/overshot) are pretty common among the various sporting dogs. A good bite is a well aligned scissors bite. A bad bite is anything other than that. A bad bite is a solid reason to cull that pup.

A bad bite is very easy to check for in a 7-8 week old puppy. The web reference in the post above shows some good examples of a good bite. 

There are a bunch of other things to check for in a 7-8 week old puppy. All of which would be solid reasons to pass that puppy over and keep looking. And these have nothing whatsoever to do with "show dogs", but rather with sound, functional conformation for the field. 

And if you dont know what these things are, then take somebody along who does.

NB


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Pointerguy said:


> I'm going to put my two cents in, good teeth don't make a great bird dog. If you had a great bird with a under bite and your breeding because he is a top notch bird finder then I say go for it. I have one of them and I will be breeding him some day. If your breeding show dog's then you know the answer to that.


Good luck with promoting genetic deformities...hope that works out for you.


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

Pointer guy said:


> I'm going to put my two cents in, good teeth don't make a great bird dog. If you had a great bird with a under bite and your breeding because he is a top notch bird finder then I say go for it. I have one of them and I will be breeding him some day. If your breeding show dog's then you know the answer to that.


If you are going to do this, then you need to advertise the fact that this dog is undershot (genetic defect). Somehow I would bet the hip/elbows/eyes, are not certified either. If so that fact should be disclosed also. Many people don't know enough to ask those types of questions.

I can call people out of the local rag all day and ask about bite, OFA hips, CERF eyes, etc. and all I get is answers like. "Huh?" or "They have some Champions in the pedigree". 

So my advice to those looking for a pup. Educate yourself, ask questions and if the breeder sounds like they don't know what the hell you are talking about, they don't. By the way, I don't breed dogs for show. I do want to do everything I can to insure a genetically sound hunting/family dog.


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## Pointerguy (May 22, 2006)

Shotgun Kennel said:


> If you are going to do this, then you need to advertise the fact that this dog is undershot (genetic defect). Somehow I would bet the hip/elbows/eyes, are not certified either. If so that fact should be disclosed also. Many people don't know enough to ask those types of questions.
> 
> I can call people out of the local rag all day and ask about bite, OFA hips, CERF eyes, etc. and all I get is answers like. "Huh?" or "They have some Champions in the pedigree".
> 
> So my advice to those looking for a pup. Educate yourself, ask questions and if the breeder sounds like they don't know what the hell you are talking about, they don't. By the way, I don't breed dogs for show. I do want to do everything I can to insure a genetically sound hunting/family dog.


While you have some great info there you make a great point Lab's are known for bad hips and etc. I have seen some people with some pretty bad teeth maybe we should tell them not to breed. :sad:


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Pointerguy said:


> I'm going to put my two cents in, good teeth don't make a great bird dog. If you had a great bird with a under bite and your breeding because he is a top notch bird finder then I say go for it. I have one of them and I will be breeding him some day. If your breeding show dog's then you know the answer to that.


Teeth don't make a bird-dog?? This is not about ability being associated with teeth.

I am not a pedigree snob. I think that it is possible for terrific hunting dogs to come from unproven lines.

Health and betterment of the breed however should not be compromised.

It is highly irresponsible to knowingly promote a known defect.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Pointerguy said:


> I have seen some people with some pretty bad teeth maybe we should tell them not to breed. :sad:


Not a valid argument- dogs are not people.

But...........As a point of reference genetic counseling is a routine protocol for high risk parents. They are given all the information necessary to make an informed decision. The possible dire consequences of their decisions are pointed out prior to their starting the prenatal process.


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## Pointerguy (May 22, 2006)

NEMichsportsman said:


> Not a valid argument- dogs are not people.
> 
> But...........As a point of reference genetic counseling is a routine protocol for high risk parents. They are given all the information necessary to make an informed decision. The possible dire consequences of their decisions are pointed out prior to their starting the prenatal process.


My opinion is based on two things 1st I run in field trials and you don't bring home trophy's with good teeth I run in field trials to win with or with out good teeth all thou I guess he would look better in the pictures if he had perfect teeth :lol:. 2nd I want a great hunting dog and good teeth don't fill the game bag. Every one has their own opinion about many things and this is mine.


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## up-hunter (May 19, 2007)

Ok here is the thing, both of our dogs came from the same litter both ended up being slightly undershot along with a few more from the litter, and neither parent were undershot.

I'm getting my female spayed on monday as i have no reason to breed a dog that has a genetic defect. My friend is starting to come around to the idea of not breeding his dog, hopefully i can make him understand that it's better in the long run, for the breed.

thanks for your opinions guys.


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

I know this particular bird dog and other than looking like a bulldog :evilsmile it is an awesome pointer.
You would not believe the pedigree the dog has and where it came from.

How many of you professional breeders go back after the pups are sold to see if the undershot shows up? They are not always noticeable at 6 -7 weeks. How many of you would stop breeding of your star if one pup shows up down the road with undershot? Would you refund your clients money for all previous litters or contact them and let them know they should not breed because they could pass along the recessive gene?

My main point is if you have a dog with an undershot have your vet diagnose it to make sure it is genetic before you make your decision.


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## Pointerguy (May 22, 2006)

shorthair guy said:


> I know this particular bird dog and other than looking like a bulldog :evilsmile it is an awesome pointer.
> You would not believe the pedigree the dog has and where it came from.
> 
> How many of you professional breeders go back after the pups are sold to see if the undershot shows up? They are not always noticeable at 6 -7 weeks. How many of you would stop breeding of your star if one pup shows up down the road with undershot? Would you refund your clients money for all previous litters or contact them and let them know they should not breed because they could pass along the recessive gene?
> ...


:lol:


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

shorthair guy said:


> My main point is if you have a dog with an undershot have your vet diagnose it to make sure it is genetic before you make your decision.


Please explain how a vet would be able to do the work of a molecular biologist or a geneticist?

Pointerguy...after reading your previous posts disagreeing with a retired conservation officer, things are starting to become much more clear.


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

Well Brad most of us dont have a molecular biologist or a geneticist on speed dial so I would think his/her vet would be the place to go then if needed the vet would refer you on.


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## Pointerguy (May 22, 2006)

One EP orange and white about 60lbs 1 point from being a champion with a unbelievable pedigree also has a slight under bite. He is looking for a female EP for companionship good teeth not necessary. If interested shoot me a pm. :coolgleam


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## dyemen (Feb 20, 2005)

shorthair guy said:


> I know this particular bird dog and other than looking like a bulldog :evilsmile it is an awesome pointer.
> You would not believe the pedigree the dog has and where it came from.
> 
> How many of you professional breeders go back after the pups are sold to see if the undershot shows up? They are not always noticeable at 6 -7 weeks. How many of you would stop breeding of your star if one pup shows up down the road with undershot? Would you refund your clients money for all previous litters or contact them and let them know they should not breed because they could pass along the recessive gene?
> ...


Yup...done it! 3 times.....Bought a male (Kaiser) under the pretense of eventually using him for stud.......Hips came back fair and 1 elbow was dysplastic....AWESOME HUNTER and Very biddable......Fixed him and placed him in a pet/hunting home! Lost about $1200....... This dog was one of maybe 5 breedable males in the US...... Unfortunately, later down the line because of 2 irresponsible breeders, this lineage has produced at least 5 puppies out of approximately 80 to 100 pups (approximately 1/3 of the US wachtelhund population) with incomplete ossification of the humeral condyle. Having a pup put down or unable to live a quality life is terrible.....Though it is not as "bad" as a bite...still the same, you are breeding genetically flawed dogs.......and possibly manifesting other genetic flaws. Many of our members of our Breed club have put contractual stipulations preventing the breeding to specific lines due to the multiple, genetic issues such as allergies and the previous listed problem. All dogs carry recessive genes and there is no such thing as a perfect dog, but to breed a dog who carries a recessive trait which has been "expressed" is asking for problems. Here is a good link on genetics.......
http://www.romanreign.com/genetics.htm

I think the problem today with puppy buyers is every very one buys the puppy right from the beginning to breed...... Regardless of how they are structurally and functionally, pedigree trumps all....... Realistically, the first priority before breeding is whether the dog is structurally sound and conforms to a standard.....next should be function...is the dog a hunter and biddable.....Last and least important should be the pedigree.......... Balance is key to getting a good dog!


Just my 2 cents......

Dave

PS....you can read about my other 2 dogs at my website.....


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Some people seem to be confused about how to tell a good breeder from a puppy mill. I'll use shorthiarguys questions to give you my take. BTW, I'm not selling anything, puppies or anything else, but I've bought alot of pups over the years and have some experience at this game.



shorthair guy said:


> How many of you professional breeders go back after the pups are sold to see if the undershot shows up?
> 
> I dont breed, but *yes absolutely* a good BREEDER keeps in touch with people who buy their pups- they *want to know.* Why is this such big news to you???
> 
> ...


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

To the above two posts - AMEN!!! Saved me a lot of typing.


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

Pointerguy said:


> One EP orange and white about 60lbs 1 point from being a champion with a unbelievable pedigree also has a slight under bite. He is looking for a female EP for companionship good teeth not necessary. If interested shoot me a pm. :coolgleam


A champion what? You forgot to add: Hips and eyes don't need to be certified, no contract with the buyer needed, no health guarantee, and if something happens and you can't keep the dog, it is your tough luck. Don't look for me to take it back or help you place it in a proper environment (home). Also, you could note that the pups will go to the first ones to my front door with the cash. I am not going to find out if you live in an apartment and work 16 hours a day. I don't care if you do or don't exercise the dog or even plan to hunt it because it is now your meat hound. There I helped write the rest of the add for the consummate irresponsible breeder. I may have forgotten something if anyone else wants to help out, be my guest.


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## Remnar (Jun 23, 2004)

> One EP orange and white about 60lbs 1 point from being a champion with a unbelievable pedigree also has a slight under bite. He is looking for a female EP for companionship good teeth not necessary. If interested shoot me a pm. :coolgleam


Maybe if you find a female with a slight overbite it might work itself out.:evilsmile

Sorry couldn't resist.

As many have said there are many great dogs out there that have it "together" genetically. We all love our four legged hunting buddies but breeding with a know defect is not a good idea. As far as I am concerned breeding without doing all the health clearances is also a bad idea. 

Now...does the fact that your dog has this defect mean that it can't get the job done. No way, plenty of dogs out there that get it done every season and even earn titles. If your dog has a genetic issue but it doesn't impact it's ability to do the job. Hunt them.. compete with them... brag the living crap outta them..be proud of them... and love them. But when the time comes to get a new pup, do the right thing and and don't breed them. Find someone who has a a litter with parents that have all the same great traits your dog has with complete health clearances and no know issues. Trust me they are out there.

Remnar


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Pointer Guy and Shorthair Guy:

I've kept my nose out of this because I'm not a breeder and never hope to be one. I don't have under my belt much evidence or experience about what is right and wrong when it comes to manufacturing puppies.

I've been following this thread and I have to say that as a prospective buyer, what the other guys are saying makes a lot of sense to me. If you're serious about the sport and/or breed, why wouldn't you want to do everything in your power to only breed the finest, highest quality animals?

Since it seems that nobody here is going to persuade you not to create what the majority of us would consider genetically inferior animals, would you at lease have the decency to post your real names and kennel/contact information. That way, anyone with a problem with your breeding knows who not to buy from and the conversation is over.

I'm serious, I think it would be the honorable thing for you to do. It would show us all that you've got a pair and believe in what you're doing. Right now it rather seems that you just want to cash in on your dogs. :coolgleam

KW


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## Pointerguy (May 22, 2006)

Shotgun Kennel said:


> A champion what? You forgot to add: Hips and eyes don't need to be certified, no contract with the buyer needed, no health guarantee, and if something happens and you can't keep the dog, it is your tough luck. Don't look for me to take it back or help you place it in a proper environment (home). Also, you could note that the pups will go to the first ones to my front door with the cash. I am not going to find out if you live in an apartment and work 16 hours a day. I don't care if you do or don't exercise the dog or even plan to hunt it because it is now your meat hound. There I helped write the rest of the add for the consummate irresponsible breeder. I may have forgotten something if anyone else wants to help out, be my guest.


Alright what started out having a little fun is getting to the point of no return. Shotgun Kennel are you reading one of your ads? because that was very well thought out and must have taken some time to write :help:. You will be the first one I contact when I have pups:lol:. All kidng aside some day when I breed my dog it will be for me not doing it to sell them because I want a few of my own pups. Last it is funny how one man asked for a few opinions and it ends up being a pointerguy slaughter:yikes:. If you read other threads in other sections of the site you will see a trend. This is why I very seldom ever post any thing here due to the fact some of you are experts in everything? I gave my opinion to someone that asked for it and many of you think yours is the only one that is right:help:. 

So long pointerguy


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## Pointerguy (May 22, 2006)

k9wernet said:


> Pointer Guy and Shorthair Guy:
> 
> I've kept my nose out of this because I'm not a breeder and never hope to be one. I don't have under my belt much evidence or experience about what is right and wrong when it comes to manufacturing puppies.
> 
> ...


I wanted to make sure that I answered your question I do not have a kennel just a great bird dog and I stated what I will do some day and that is breed my dog for me no one else. I never said I was going to sell these dogs but you must automactaly assume that I am a puppy mill or some thing.

pointerguy


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

K9wernet
Never said I condone breeding genetic flaws but as a bunch of folks on this site assumes the worst, they love to take shots a people.

Im not a breeder myself, did have a litter in the past. still evaluating the pups. 
I was pointing out in that thread that this dog came from very good stock.
Didnt say I agreed with him breeding just said he has a great pedigree and no one would believe where he came from.

Also stated that if your dog has an underbite have it checked out prior to making any decisions but I guess that is not good advice.

Oh and I guess I better say the dog doesnt look like a bulldog before someone believes that and gives him a hard time about it.:SHOCKED:

And if anyone wants to see that I have a pair they can pm me anytime.






k9wernet said:


> Pointer Guy and Shorthair Guy:
> 
> I've kept my nose out of this because I'm not a breeder and never hope to be one. I don't have under my belt much evidence or experience about what is right and wrong when it comes to manufacturing puppies.
> 
> ...


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## dyemen (Feb 20, 2005)

Pointerguy said:


> Alright what started out having a little fun is getting to the point of no return. Shotgun Kennel are you reading one of your ads? because that was very well thought out and must have taken some time to write :help:. You will be the first one I contact when I have pups:lol:. All kidng aside some day when I breed my dog it will be for me not doing it to sell them because I want a few of my own pups. Last it is funny how one man asked for a few opinions and it ends up being a pointerguy slaughter:yikes:. If you read other threads in other sections of the site you will see a trend. This is why I very seldom ever post any thing here due to the fact some of you are experts in everything? I gave my opinion to someone that asked for it and many of you think yours is the only one that is right:help:.
> 
> So long pointerguy


VICTIM??!!:lol: :16suspect Love it when people hit the hornet nest with a stick and then claim innocences when they get stung......:yikes::lol: 

Speaking for myself, I am far from an expert, but have learned MUCH from my mistakes. Just like you, everyone is entitled to an opinion, popular or not. Believe or not....there might be a couple of people on this board that may know a thing or two and are a wealth of info........Good luck!

Dave


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

It would have to be a female with a major overbite not a slight:evilsmile




Remnar said:


> Maybe if you find a female with a slight overbite it might work itself out.:evilsmile
> 
> Sorry couldn't resist.
> 
> ...


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Not that I would breed a dog with a truely bad bite but just to comment on what some other have said; MOST pointer and setter breeders do not have all the certs done that many breeders of other breeds have done because these genetic flaws are not that prevalent in these dogs. This has changed some in recent years as bad breeders are putting out dogs with some issues which is why you should not breed a dog you know up front already has an issue.


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

Good Point Slammer.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

shorthair guy said:


> Good Point Slammer.


I think you missed the point, Shorthair! 



slammer said:


> ...you should not breed a dog you know up front already has an issue.


Why do you think many genetic flaws are not prevalent? Maybe it has something to do with careful breeding and the weeding out of known genetic flaws? Maybe certs aren't common for those breeds (I wouldn't know), but it sounds like that's due to the integrity of past breeders. I don't think Slammer was giving you a licence to be any less vigilant in breeding only top notch dogs! Why do you think certs are necessary for other breeds? My guess is that it has to do with money hungry breeders that bred known genetic defects into otherwise respectable lines. Which kind of breeder are you?

Again if your practices and positions are respectable, why don't you and pointerguy identify yourselves and be done with it?

KW


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## direwolf23 (Jan 7, 2008)

My point of view is that if there are any known genetic defects then I would not breed the dog. 

But... then I think about how many breeds of dogs there are. Certain traits are passed on through genetics and suddenly a "genetic defect" is considered a "genetic trait" that is sought after. 

Anyway, that second part was just a random thought.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Pointerguy said:


> I wanted to make sure that I answered your question I do not have a kennel just a great bird dog and I stated what I will do some day and that is breed my dog for me no one else. I never said I was going to sell these dogs but you must automatically assume that I am a puppy mill or some thing.
> 
> pointerguy



What would you do with the other pups? Given away, sold? Would they be spayed and neutered? Thrown in a bucket of water?

You never stated what your intentions were. From the original post it would indicate that you wanted a pup...nothing else could be determined.

Alot of debate conjecture and criticism could be avoided with information.


You criticized other opinions in the post you made before the one I quoted ....the poster who started this thread asked for opinions??? 

Regarding those opinions: 

Everyone has one -not everyone is right!
Not everyone has to admit that they are wrong.
*Everyone *that responds might expect to have comments made (either pro or con about their opinions)
People who respond don't get a free pass just because they think they deserve it.

If you want to pick up your toys and leave it is your prerogative. I don't think all of us think you are a bad guy, or don't have a nice dog, because you hold a minority viewpoint on a specific issue. It means we disagree about what is proper and improper.


This can be said about 95% of the controversial threads here...

As I have said a hundred times before _*i*__*t is just a website!!!!*_

Most of these dramatic discussions wouldn't happen in the same if we were sitting around a campfire, table in a diner or bar, or at the tailgate after training or hunting....


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

I didnt miss his point at all. When in any of my posts did I condone breeding a genetic defect?




k9wernet said:


> I think you missed the point, Shorthair!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

NEMichsportsman said:


> Most of these dramatic discussions wouldn't happen in the same if we were sitting around a campfire, table in a diner or bar, or at the tailgate after training or hunting....


True: I get real mellow w/ a beer in hand (which each of those situations implies).

KW


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

NEMichsportsman said:


> Alot of debate conjecture and criticism could be avoided with information.
> 
> This can be said about 95% of the controversial threads here...
> 
> As I have said a hundred times before _*i*__*t is just a website!!!!*_


Joel has hit the 10X ring when he says alot of the drama on this thread, as well as many others, could be avoided with some good solid *information* on the subject.

If you Google - "Malocclusion in Dogs" you'll find about 41,000 hits. Not all of these will opine on the etiology of malocclusion in dogs. I took a quick look at the first few articles which state that most cases of overbite/underbite are thought to be genetic in nature. I'm sure this could vary from breed to breed on jaw and teeth deformaties, as well as many other hereditary diseases.

Happy reading.

Natty B.


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

Yes, I have been very critical of even considering breeding a dog with a know genetic defect. I have had dogs that were solid as far as conformation goes. However, after training and hunting over them for a couple years I decided not to breed them. These are dogs, which most hunters would love to have and brag about. Although, they did not fit what I want to put into my breeding program. Why? Just some intangible things that I don't need to go into. I had them fixed. My point there are lots of great looking dogs that should not be breeding for various reasons. Their temperament might be too soft or they just might be an idiot and fight you every step of the training process. So, why take a chance of passing on those traits as well as genetic problems. The point is to strive improve the breed.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Shotgun Kennel said:


> Yes, I have been very critical of even considering breeding a dog with a know genetic defect. I have had dogs that were solid as far as conformation goes. However, after training and hunting over them for a couple years I decided not to breed them. These are dogs, which most hunters would love to have and brag about. Although, they did not fit what I want to put into my breeding program. Why? Just some intangible things that I don't need to go into. I had them fixed. My point there are lots of great looking dogs that should not be breeding for various reasons. Their temperament might be too soft or they just might be an idiot and fight you every step of the training process. So, why take a chance of passing on those traits as well as genetic problems. The point is to strive improve the breed.


True but genetic issues aside everybody wants something a little different and something "wrong" can be found with any dog whether it be softness, run, style, the list goes on and on. Not saying you are doing this but guys with that mentality usually want to exclude eveyone else from breeding but themselves and then we are back at we all think what we have is best.


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## Gina Fox (Nov 4, 2007)

I have been following this thread from the original post. I have been a breeder of dogs for over 30 years. Here are the facts.

1) There is no such thing as a genetically pure dog (or PERSON) we all carry defective genes. It is only a matter of putting a particular pair together to bring out a defect, both parents must be carriers. A dog that possesses a fault, in this example a bad bite, will more than likely produce it IF BRED to another dog (even if it has a perfect bite) that carries a propensity as well.

There is also another reason for bad bites and that is breeding two extreme head 'types', that would not be a genetic bad bite.

2)Only dogs that pass certification and fit the standard should be bred. Certification varies from breed to breed, but should include OFA HIPS/ELS, Eye exams by board certified canine opthalmologists, cardiac exam by BC cardiologist. Also if your breed is prone to von willebrants, thyroid or other common disorders it would behoove you to test for those as well. 

3) sometime the 'click' isnt good when breeding two pairs. If his happens then choose another stud dog for your female or if you own a stud do not breed to that particular female again. 


Now there are plenty of dogs out there with bad bites that can perform the function of hunting dog OR PET without issues. Culling is not necessary as there are likely plenty of people that love a dog even though it is not 'perfect'

With that being said, a poor specimen should not be bred just for kicks...Working toward betterment of the breed should always be foremost in a breeders mind. Breeding dogs is very complicated and it can be as rewarding and heartbreaking as anything you will ever do. 

It is not for the fainthearted.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

shorthair guy said:


> I didnt miss his point at all. When in any of my posts did I condone breeding a genetic defect?





shorthair guy said:


> Didnt say I agreed with him breeding just said he has a great pedigree and no one would believe where he came from.
> 
> Also stated that if your dog has an underbite have it checked out prior to making any decisions...


Reading back through the posts, I may have been putting words in your mouth -- specifically putting Pointer Guy's words. Similar names and all, anyway, sorry if I was too harsh.

KW


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

Pointerguy said:


> I'm going to put my two cents in, good teeth don't make a great bird dog. If you had a great bird with a under bite and your breeding because he is a top notch bird finder then *I say go for it*. I have one of them and I will be breeding him some day. If your breeding show dog's then you know the answer to that.


Originally Posted by *shorthair guy*  
_I didnt miss his point at all. *When in any of my posts did I condone breeding a genetic defect?*_

In the post above: "*I say go for it*",is condoning breeding a genetic defect.


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

Hey Shotgun,
That was pointerguys post not mine.........




Shotgun Kennel said:


> Originally Posted by *shorthair guy*
> _I didnt miss his point at all. *When in any of my posts did I condone breeding a genetic defect?*_
> 
> In the post above: "*I say go for it*",is condoning breeding a genetic defect.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

shorthair guy said:


> Hey Shotgun,
> That was pointerguys post not mine.........


Shotgun: I'm pretty sure pointerguy and shorthairguy are the same guy posting under different aliases just to confuse us!



:lol:



KW


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## shorthair guy (Jan 20, 2006)

Not a chance, I dont like tails............:lol:





k9wernet said:


> Shotgun: I'm pretty sure pointerguy and shorthairguy are the same guy posting under different aliases just to confuse us!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

shorthair guy said:


> Hey Shotgun,
> That was pointerguys post not mine.........


Damn too many rum and cokes last night. Sorry now I am embarrassed.


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## wachtelhund (Feb 20, 2007)

I breed Deutsche Wachtelhunds, Eagle River Wachtelhunds and sell my pups with a written seven year Guarantee and Sales Contract . The guarantee is for any genetic defects which effects the dogs hunting ability. I have bred nine litters since 1995. In the nine litters, I have had two puppies with minor under bites. My Vet said they would most likely out grow them. In the first case the pup did out grown the under bite. The second was from my current litter. In both cases they were were from different bitches and sires with no bite or other genetic problems. My Wachtelhunds are certified having normal elbows and good to excellent hips. I, also, DNA profile my Wachtelhunds to have the ability to track genetic issues. My belief is you can breed good dogs and occassionly get a bad one. Or you can breed bad dogs and get a lot of bad dogs, with an occassional good one.

Most of our Wachtelhund breeders have follow suite and also provide written guarantees.


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Is there a reason you dug up a thread that has been dead for over 2 years?????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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