# Deck building 101



## brushbuster

Jiw275 said:


> While I understand your position that the inspector is the authority having jurisdiction, I do not totally agree.
> 
> I have dealt with some “cause I said so” and won. That tactic gets my back up and then it is on. Not necessarily a good thing for everyone to practice.
> 
> Glad it worked for you. Your house is a work of art.
> 
> Edited to ad, won meant the inspector(s) would not reduce what the change(s) wanted to writing and sign the document.


I did win one battle over the stupid blower door test. They had me do a energy audit at my expense before I built, I told him I wasn't go to pay for a frikken blower door test when it cam time to get a C of O. He let me slide.


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## kroppe

I wouldn’t build without a permit if one is required in your area. It creates opportunities for headaches down the road.


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## big show

d_rek said:


> I want to build it to last and not be tearing it up in 10-15 years.


Looking at the photo posted a couple pages back, the grade difference between the door and the ground only seems like a couple of feet. Have you thought about a brick paver or stamped colored concrete patio? The maintenance would be near zero and it would definitely outlast a deck.


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## kroppe

@d_rek when do the post holes get sunk?


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## d_rek

kroppe said:


> @d_rek when do the post holes get sunk?


Next weekend most likely. Lining up the tractor with the auger. Hoping weather cooperates. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## d_rek

Ok so post holes never happened. I guess my cousin who owns the tractor with the auger managed to get the auger stuck and bent it last weekend. So i'll rent a 2-man auger after memorial day and set my posts next week.

Also, I decided not to do a freestanding, and will instead attach via ledger. The reason I am going to do this is because I am a little nervous about setting posts within a few feet of the house knowing that most of that soil is not virgin and has been disturbed and is still settling. Per the residential deck construction guide they're supposed to be no closer than 5ft from the foundation, and I'd be nervous that no sooner do I set a post within a few feet of the house than it settles and messes up the entire thing. I'm confident I can install the ledger and make it water tight. Plus it saves me from digging additional post holes. Unless someone wants to talk me out of a ledger and convinces me I wont have to worry about settling if I set the posts so close to the house...


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## kroppe

Good choice, carry on.


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## d_rek

So it begins...










Ledger installed. Used ledgerLok structural screws. Went in like butter. Flashed with rubber flashing tape behind and on top of the ledger. Then just have pieces of vinyl drip cap on top. Deck boards will get installed on that and I’ll finish the vinyl edge with a J channel all around. 

Put up some batting for the post holes and will be getting the two man digger tomorrow and will have it for the weekend. Wish me luck. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## Fishindeer

Good luck with your post holes. Weather definitely better temperatures wise for that work this weekend. I know lots of advice has been given and maybe it’s in your plans. Remove that thick beautiful grass you have under deck and install fabric and stone. You will be happy. I also put some coated small square rabbit cage mesh to help keep the critters out from joist to ground folded over and on ground aways with gravel over the top. Easy to do as your building instead of after. Good luck keep the updates coming.


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## d_rek

Fishindeer said:


> Good luck with your post holes. Weather definitely better temperatures wise for that work this weekend. I know lots of advice has been given and maybe it’s in your plans. Remove that thick beautiful grass you have under deck and install fabric and stone. You will be happy. I also put some coated small square rabbit cage mesh to help keep the critters out from joist to ground folded over and on ground aways with gravel over the top. Easy to do as your building instead of after. Good luck keep the updates coming.


Yes I am planning on pulling up the sod. Going to set my posts this weekend then clear that all out. It’s a large area and well established. If it turns out to be a major PIA to remove I’m just going to mow it short then hammer it with some roundup to burn it down. Then out some thick barrier down with stone. Have not decided if I will put some sort of critter barrier down yet. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## kroppe

Looks great d_rek!

Agree on removing the grass. I had well established turf in the deck area. I rented a sod cutter and sliced it off the ground. I used some of the sod to fill in a bare area, and gave most of it to a neighbor who did the same. It took hold nicely.

After the sod was removed, I put down black landscape cloth, and a thin layer of crushed stone. All of this time and effort was to create long lasting weed barrier. I think I used one or two loads of stone in an F-250 shortbed. The stone layer was thin and really just there to hold the black cloth in place. 

The photos I posted in posts 46, 47 and 54 show the sliced out sod, black cloth and crushed stone.


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## d_rek

Post holes dug! We managed to get each of them to 48”. Only had one hole that gave us a problem and that was because the digger extension popped off as we hit clay and had to dig it out. I cleaned up the bottom of the whole the best I could then poured a bag of concrete in the bottom. Next I’ll set my posts on top of the footer I poured and add another bag of concrete around the post. 











Sent from d_mobile


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## kroppe

Well done! Making nice progress. 

When the time comes, I pitched my joists ever so slightly away from the house, the idea being to create a slight water shedding effect. A small detail, and likely didn't make a big difference on account of the designed gap between the Trex decking.


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## d_rek

Posts set!


Sent from d_mobile


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## kroppe

Looks great!


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## d_rek

Question about board thicknesses and acceptable deviation...

I was going to make and set beams today but the 2x10x16’s I got varies in thickness from 9 1/2 down to 9 1/4. Is 1/4 acceptable tolerance? Or should I return the boards and try to find thicknesses that are closer? Or do I try to mill them down to the same thickness? 

It wasn’t something I considered when I purchased the boards I mostly eyeballed for straightness and to make sure they weren’t corkscrewed or bowed. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## kroppe

No milling.

I don’t see where width affects anything. The word “beam” to me is the element on which the joists rest. “Joist” is the element on which the deck surface rests.


Set a level line with a mason’s line to establish a top surface of the beam to rest the joists on. This can be done independent of the width variation of the 2x10s. Simply nail or bolt the 2x10s so that they kiss the mason’s line. I like to lower the height of the beams ever so slightly away from the house to create a mild water shedding effect. If you have two beams, it means the one closest to the house will be a hair lower than the top of the ledger, and the beam farthest from the house will be a hair lower than the first beam.

The joists may need some shimming because of the width variation you will experience. Not a big deal, just shim under the joist. I also notched a beam or two in the case of a wide joist. The amount of shimming and notching we are talking about is around 1/4”-1/2” max.

This gets you to the point where the joists are set and they are all level along the length of the house, and sloped slightly away from the house. The next step is to install the deck surface.

Think ahead to the railing design and fascia. I used a rim joist for the fascia and the railing was fastened to the rim joist.


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## d_rek

kroppe said:


> No milling.
> 
> I don’t see where width affects anything. The word “beam” to me is the element on which the joists rest. “Joist” is the element on which the deck surface rests.
> 
> 
> Set a level line with a mason’s line to establish a top surface of the beam to rest the joists on. This can be done independent of the width variation of the 2x10s. Simply nail or bolt the 2x10s so that they kiss the mason’s line. I like to lower the height of the beams ever so slightly away from the house to create a mild water shedding effect. If you have two beams, it means the one closest to the house will be a hair lower than the top of the ledger, and the beam farthest from the house will be a hair lower than the first beam.
> 
> The joists may need some shimming because of the width variation you will experience. Not a big deal, just shim under the joist. I also notched a beam or two in the case of a wide joist. The amount of shimming and notching we are talking about is around 1/4”-1/2” max.
> 
> This gets you to the point where the joists are set and they are all level along the length of the house, and sloped slightly away from the house. The next step is to install the deck surface.
> 
> Think ahead to the railing design and fascia. I used a rim joist for the fascia and the railing was fastened to the rim joist.


Ok. I just wasn’t sure if 1/4” would be too much variation and cause ugly layout or worse case some deflection and bounce. What do you use for shims? Wood, composite, or something else? If I use would should o make some out of treated lumber?

In my layout my beams will run parallel to house, with joists running perpendicular. I still need to cut my posts down to correct height. I put a line on them already and pitched it 1/2” sloping away from house. 

For fascia am going to use deck boards for deck skirting. Rails have not decided what to do here yet. I was considering the black wrought iron sections attached to rail posts attached to the rim joist. The thought of staining/sealing wood balusters causes me physical discomfort. Or we may go vinyl. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## sureshot006

Dont worry about the thickness. Just the level of the top edge


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## FREEPOP

d_rek said:


> Ok. I just wasn’t sure if 1/4” would be too much variation and cause ugly layout or worse case some deflection and bounce. What do you use for shims? Wood, composite, or something else? If I use would should o make some out of treated lumber?
> 
> In my layout my beams will run parallel to house, with joists running perpendicular. I still need to cut my posts down to correct height. I put a line on them already and pitched it 1/2” sloping away from house.
> 
> For fascia am going to use deck boards for deck skirting. Rails have not decided what to do here yet. I was considering the black wrought iron sections attached to rail posts attached to the rim joist. The thought of staining/sealing wood balusters causes me physical discomfort. Or we may go vinyl.
> 
> 
> Sent from d_mobile


Cedar shims


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## usedtobeayooper

Quick note if it hasn't already been mentioned: Make sure you read the crown on each joist and place it upward. A lot of people just set the joists however they pick them up off the pile, but it's better structurally, and helps keep the deck boards flatter and more consistent if all crowns are up.


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## d_rek

sureshot006 said:


> Dont worry about the thickness. Just the level of the top edge


 Just to be clear I might have misspoke when I said thickness when I meant height of the beam. That's where I was confused though. If i the height varies by 1/4" across the top edge of the beam how will I get the beams to sit level? 

But I guess I don't worry about that and just notch/shim joists as needed.


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## FREEPOP

You can also sort beams and have taller at one end, shorter on the other.


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## kroppe

+1 on cedar shims

Beams are set by you, using a mason line. It doesn’t matter how scabby or wavy they are, as long as there is one good straight edge. One or the other of the edges will be “good enough” to use facing the joists. The other edge is facing the ground, and its straightness is irrelevant. 

There should be no bounce anywhere:

- joists will be notched and shimmed to the beams so no opportunity for bounce between joists and beams
- Decking will conform to the joists, and because you will have done a good job getting all of the joist top edges in a plane, there will be no opportunity for bounce between decking and joists

No gaps=no bounce

Reading and sorting beams and joists is needed, as mentioned above.


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## d_rek

kroppe said:


> +1 on cedar shims
> 
> Beams are set by you, using a mason line. It doesn’t matter how scabby or wavy they are, as long as there is one good straight edge. One or the other of the edges will be “good enough” to use facing the joists. The other edge is facing the ground, and its straightness is irrelevant.
> 
> There should be no bounce anywhere:
> 
> - joists will be notched and shimmed to the beams so no opportunity for bounce between joists and beams
> - Decking will conform to the joists, and because you will have done a good job getting all of the joist top edges in a plane, there will be no opportunity for bounce between decking and joists
> 
> No gaps=no bounce
> 
> Reading and sorting beams and joists is needed, as mentioned above.


Ok. I get all of that. Though I'm setting my beams directly on top of my posts and using post-beam connector, so that's why I was worried about the beam height. I guess I can also cut the posts the short beam will be sitting on a 1/4 inch taller, too. Or maybe i'm just overthinking it.


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## kroppe

I carriage bolted the beams to the posts, so the post height was not in the picture. Using a post-beam connector requires more precision on post height. If you cut the posts a hair (1/4"-1/2") short, you can install the connector, then shim under the beam before fastening it to the connector, to arrive at the desired beam height. Setting the beams on top of the posts also introduces beam width variation into the equation. 

Are you using double beams (two 2x10s per beam)? If yes, and if you have the post height, and if you haven't cut them yet, consider carriage bolting the beams to the posts. It is more adjustable and forgiving.


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## hommer23

Go get some 1/8” x1 1/2” steel stock and put under the side that’s 1/8” short of cut a galvanized plate to 1.5” and put it under it. Don’t over think it, most likely the wider ones are wet and swelled up some.


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## SS1059

Build the top of the beam flush you can cut or trim the bottom just where it lands on your four post


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## d_rek

kroppe said:


> Are you using double beams (two 2x10s per beam)? If yes, and if you have the post height, and if you haven't cut them yet, consider carriage bolting the beams to the posts. It is more adjustable and forgiving.


I was told carriage bolting beams to post is no longer upto code unless the beams are notched and the beam is setting directly on the post. . But yes will be using two 2x10s and setting them directly on top of the posts.


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## kroppe

Ok. If you have confirmed that carriage bolts are not code in your area then it’s not an option. Just need to manage the variation in beam dimension and shape using notching and shimming to end up as level as possible.


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## Walleyze247

Did you hear that beams bolted to posts are no longer code from your inspector? I'm not sure of the longer term failure rate, but it sure seems like it would be pretty rare. 













Either way, good luck with you project.


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## d_rek

Walleyze247 said:


> Did you hear that beams bolted to posts are no longer code from your inspector? I'm not sure of the longer term failure rate, but it sure seems like it would be pretty rare.
> View attachment 542677
> View attachment 542679
> 
> Either way, good luck with you project.


The builder I consulted said they would no longer pass inspection in most areas. Something to do with potential for the bolts to sheer. In the same breath he said the bolts are engineered way stronger than they were twenty years ago when that kind of failure might have occurred and that they were likely to never sheet. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## Walleyze247

The shear strength of the galvanized bolts I used is enormous. You go about your projects the right way. I'm confidant your deck will turn out great.


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## kroppe

I used the same method on the photos from Walleyze247. 

The authority on what is code in your area is the building department in your municipality. It sounds like the builder is giving you his opinion and personal preference. Either way, beams sitting on posts, or carriage bolted, will work and will last longer than the surrounding wood.


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## d_rek

Amatuer carpenter question:

What tool should I use to set level lines for cutting my posts?

I'm deathly afraid of cutting them wrong and having them come up too short.

I've been trying to set level lines for cutting my post. I've been using mason string to run lines off my ledger to establish level line to where I need to cut my posts. The problem is using a string level it the lines can be 4-5" off over 16ft and still be 'level'. After doing a little googling it sounds like string isn't the most accurate when it comes to setting level. I've done this 2-3 times now and basically every time I come up with a different cut line on the post.

My ledger is level and square to my door frame (used a 6ft level slid along the length the ledger). 

As of now i'm kind of between making/buying a water level or renting a laser level and ditch the string.


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## Jiw275

Unless you rent/buy a quality laser level use a water level. Clear tubing that you fill with water and move from post to post.

If you elect to use laser level check the manual for the stated accuracy. Many are +/- 1/4” in one hundred feet or less.

Good luck


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## kroppe

A mason line should be good enough for the dimension/size/distance you are working with.

An extremely taut mason line is required. Extremely taut. The line is high strength (it won’t break) and made from nylon (it stretches). The mason line anchors need to be solid enough so that you can tension the line extremely taut. A taut line means a straight (not bowed) line exists between each end point. A line bubble level then tells you what you need to know about level.

Don’t sweat this. Shims and notching are your friends. If you can speak with a human being in your township building department about carriage bolting the beams to the posts, and you have sufficient post height to do this, I recommend this approach. It is much more adjustable and forgiving vs setting beams on top of the posts.

The only thing I used a water tube level for was setting ledger height over a 40ft distance and around an obstruction (chimney). From there, reference the ledger as your height datum, and in your case you are not working with anything over 20ft, correct? Run the mason line perpendicular to the house, from the top surface of the ledger, out to slightly farther than the full width of the deck. Measure down from the mason line and you now have your beam height. Make the appropriate mark on the post and fire up the saw. Measure twice, cut once!


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## bwlacy

X2 on the water level. You can make one for a few $. Very easy to do and use.


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## d_rek

Figured out the issue. Apparently the string level I bought is a piece of crap. It gives me two different readings if I flip it.




















Sent from d_mobile


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## d_rek

bwlacy said:


> X2 on the water level. You can make one for a few $. Very easy to do and use.


Thanks. Going to head to hardware store and pickup some vinyl tubing to make one. Don’t want to risk making bad cuts with the POS string level I’ve been using. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## bwlacy

Take your time with the water level and it will be fine. The hard part is cutting it level


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## kroppe

Stanley aluminum line level, in case you want a new one. Sounds like you are going down the water level route, that works also.


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## hommer23

If you use a string put a 1/2-1” spacer on the end posts so the string don’t hang up if your posts are off a bit.then use a square to transfer the line. You can also set your two end joist and snap a line to get the post height.


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## d_rek

Beams set! Also got landscaping fabric and stone down. Got a little off schedule with some other things going on but now back on track. Will be setting joists and ordering deck boards this weekend!


















Sent from d_mobile


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## Jiw275

Looking good


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## kroppe

Looks great! It's coming into focus. I think the dog agrees.


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## d_rek

We’ve got joists! Now to block and tie them to the beams.











Sent from d_mobile


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## kroppe

Coming together nicely! Do you have the decking material on site?


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## multibeard

Did you check the deck for square. 

Every deck on the place we bought a few years ago were way out of square. The front deck was actually 3 inches wider against the house than it was on the front. One end was actually square. They put a full 16 footer on the house, then nailed the joists to the end of it. Then they nailed them to the back side of the 16 footer on the front of the deck so the grain did not show.

The easy way to check for square is simple geometry. 6-8-10
Put a mark at 6 foot on the board against the house, then put a mark at 8 feet on the joist. If it is square it will measure 10 feet between the marks. Just make sure the first marks are in the same position on the boards.


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## d_rek

kroppe said:


> Coming together nicely! Do you have the decking material on site?


Picking it up Monday or Tuesday. It will be cedar. It’s stored indoors at the local lumberjack. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## d_rek

multibeard said:


> Did you check the deck for square.
> 
> Every deck on the place we bought a few years ago were way out of square. The front deck was actually 3 inches wider against the house than it was on the front. One end was actually square. They put a full 16 footer on the house, then nailed the joists to the end of it. Then they nailed them to the back side of the 16 footer on the front of the deck so the grain did not show.
> 
> The easy way to check for square is simple geometry. 6-8-10
> Put a mark at 6 foot on the board against the house, then put a mark at 8 feet on the joist. If it is square it will measure 10 feet between the marks. Just make sure the first marks are in the same position on the boards.


The beams were set square to the ledger. Confirmed by taking multiple measurements and finally good ol’ Pythagorean’s theorem. I will double check the rim joist on the overhang is still square prior to tying it in to the rest of the joists. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## d_rek

Question: should I flash my deck joists with a rubber membrane? Seems like a lot of additional cost to do so. I have 22 2x8x16s... my conservative estimates put me at about $175 to flash all the joists. Seems like an unnecessary expense, but maybe it’s worthwhile?

I haven’t seen a deck here in MI with rotting joists. Heck the 35+ yr old one I just helped my in-laws tear the deck boards off had joists the still looked pretty darn good. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## usedtobeayooper

d_rek said:


> Question: should I flash my deck joists with a rubber membrane? Seems like a lot of additional cost to do so. I have 22 2x8x16s... my conservative estimates put me at about $175 to flash all the joists. Seems like an unnecessary expense, but maybe it’s worthwhile?
> 
> I haven’t seen a deck here in MI with rotting joists. Heck the 35+ yr old one I just helped my in-laws tear the deck boards off had joists the still looked pretty darn good.
> 
> Sent from d_mobile


The only time I'd see that as necessary would be if the sides were enclosed restricting ventilation so the underside of the deck couldn't "breath".... in your case, I'd consider it overkill and an unnecessary cost. 

Just my $0.02....


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## d_rek

usedtobeayooper said:


> The only time I'd see that as necessary would be if the sides were enclosed restricting ventilation so the underside of the deck couldn't "breath".... in your case, I'd consider it overkill and an unnecessary cost.
> 
> Just my $0.02....


Ok. I pick up my deck boards today so figured I’d ask before I start laying them down. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## kroppe

I didn’t flash my joists and the deck is standing today 22 years later. I have never heard of flashing joists and have never seen flashed joists in my life, in all of the places in the US and the world that I have traveled.

Flashing joists seems like overkill and unnecessary.


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## sureshot006

I replaced decking almost 2 years ago. Deck was installed in... I think around 2004. The joists were okay but some screws pulled out too easy. Not rotten but not ideal either. Was borderline on whether they should be replaced or not. So far biggest regret is the stain I used and not using SS screws. The coated stuff seems to really corrode fast.


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## d_rek

sureshot006 said:


> I replaced decking almost 2 years ago. Deck was installed in... I think around 2004. The joists were okay but some screws pulled out too easy. Not rotten but not ideal either. Was borderline on whether they should be replaced or not. So far biggest regret is the stain I used and not using SS screws. The coated stuff seems to really corrode fast.


I'm debating whether to face screw them or use a hidden fastener. My cousin used hidden fasteners and it's nice not to stare at screws.


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## multibeard

The only thing I ever flashed on a deck was against the house so that water could not get behind it and rot out the house. I put silicone under the flashing to keep the water out.

I get a good laugh when I see where some one puts 3 screws in a deck board. It serves no purpose as no mater what way a deck board cups it does not keep it from cupping. Remember bark up when installing the deck. When it cups, it more than likely will, it will go up so the water will drain off not lay in the cup.


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## kroppe

I like the appearance of hidden fasteners. But the long term results after deck boards cup, and they will as noted above, is unknown to me. Not saying don’t use hidden fasteners, just do the research. 

As mentioned long ago on this thread, I believe in paying extra for fasteners, which means either plated and painted, or stainless.


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## d_rek

kroppe said:


> I like the appearance of hidden fasteners. But the long term results after deck boards cup, and they will as noted above, is unknown to me. Not saying don’t use hidden fasteners, just do the research.
> 
> As mentioned long ago on this thread, I believe in paying extra for fasteners, which means either plated and painted, or stainless.


About to splurge on fasteners... I think I’ll face screw them. Keep it simple. I like the look of the stainless steel, but wondering how the painted fasteners hold up and if it wouldn’t look more subtle. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## sureshot006

d_rek said:


> About to splurge on fasteners... I think I’ll face screw them. Keep it simple. I like the look of the stainless steel, but wondering how the painted fasteners hold up and if it wouldn’t look more subtle.
> 
> 
> Sent from d_mobile


The home depot deckmate coated screws rot in a few years. I would never use them again even though the color "matches".


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## d_rek

sureshot006 said:


> The home depot deckmate coated screws rot in a few years. I would never use them again even though the color "matches".


Ok. Trying to find some stainless steel #10 screws that aren't made in China. I think the GripRite ones that HD and Lowes carries are china made... guess i'll have to wait until lumberjack opens up again tomorrow.


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## d_rek

First row of decking down... now the burning question: what should I gap the cedar at? Guy at one store told me 1/8th. The other guy said 1/4 if it’s dry and 1/8th if it’s wet. It’s pretty dry right now. Should I go 1/4 or split the difference with 3/16?


Sent from d_mobile


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## d_rek

I split the difference and made some spacers with some 16 penny nails that were exactly 3/16. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## multibeard

I used 16's for spacers on a lot of my decks. If you do not space the boards enough all kinds of stuff gets caught in the cracks.


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## sureshot006

multibeard said:


> I used 16's for spacers on a lot of my decks. If you do not space the boards enough all kinds of stuff gets caught in the cracks.


Seems there is always something juuuuuuust the perfect size lol


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## ESOX

Premium USA made deck screws. Considering labor is the most costly part of the project, it makes no sense to skimp:
https://spax.us/products/stainless-steel-desk-and-construction-screws


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## d_rek

ESOX said:


> Premium USA made deck screws. Considering labor is the most costly part of the project, it makes no sense to skimp:
> https://spax.us/products/stainless-steel-desk-and-construction-screws


I saw them at HD but they only sell them in 1lb boxes.... 


Sent from d_mobile


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## ESOX

d_rek said:


> I saw them at HD but they only sell them in 1lb boxes....
> 
> 
> Sent from d_mobile


I have been out of the building supply industry for a couple years but they make them in 2500 and 5000 screw cartons. Try a real building supply, not a box store. they may have to order them in but that's only a couple days wait.


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## multibeard

I bought a big carton of coated screws from Lowes when I put a new deck on the front of the house. I just looked and there is no discoloration. The look just like they did when I put them in at least 7 years ago. I will look later to see where they were made.

What ever you do, get screws with star drive, torx. I thought square drive was way better than Philips when they came out, which they were. Star drive is 200% better. I made a few shallow boxes to put screws in that could be slid around the deck so I did not have to reach in a nail apron to get screws, getting poked.

Edit I went and looked. They are Grip Rite screws made in Taiwan. I use them for every thing not just exterior.
When I am screwing cabinets together I use brown pole barn screws as the drive good with a pilot hole because they are 1/4 inch hex head. I take off the washer and rubber. they do not show that much


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## d_rek

multibeard said:


> I bought a big carton of coated screws from Lowes when I put a new deck on the front of the house. I just looked and there is no discoloration. The look just like they did when I put them in at least 7 years ago. I will look later to see where they were made.
> 
> What ever you do, get screws with star drive, torx. I thought square drive was way better than Philips when they came out, which they were. Star drive is 200% better. I made a few shallow boxes to put screws in that could be slid around the deck so I did not have to reach in a nail apron to get screws, getting poked.
> 
> Edit I went and looked. They are Grip Rite screws made in Taiwan. I use them for every thing not just exterior.
> When I am screwing cabinets together I use brown pole barn screws as the drive good with a pilot hole because they are 1/4 inch hex head. I take off the washer and rubber. they do not show that much


I picked up grip rite #10 3" SS screws with the torx head. Going in good so far. Could not find any Made in USA in bulk anywhere and would have had to special order. According to the guy at lumberjack 99% of fasteners are made in Taiwan these days.


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## d_rek

Progress! Could have got more done but took the kids swimming this afternoon. 


















Sent from d_mobile


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## kroppe

Great progress! Looking good. When is the first BBQ scheduled?


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## d_rek

Question: I have some butt joints where the deck board or the sistered joists thickness isn’t perfect. Could or should I go through and sand down those joints to make them nice and seamless? The worst of them are 1/16th or so. Enough to notice but not bad enough to stub a toe or anything. 

Tried googling but couldn’t find much. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## hommer23

I would leave them for now, moisture content will cause a board to swell or shrink. Once the board have settled or equalized for a year or so then if they are still off you can sand the entire walking surface.


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## kroppe

I (hand) planed joists that weren't doing what I wanted. If that is an option for you I would fix the unevenness in the joist. If everything is level and planar when installed, it's a reasonable assumption to make that things will settle, swell and shrink more or less together. If they don't, replacing a board or sanding and planing is always a future option.


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## d_rek

kroppe said:


> I (hand) planed joists that weren't doing what I wanted. If that is an option for you I would fix the unevenness in the joist. If everything is level and planar when installed, it's a reasonable assumption to make that things will settle, swell and shrink more or less together. If they don't, replacing a board or sanding and planing is always a future option.


I spent a lot of time leveling joists. I’d say half had to be shimmed slightly. In the end I had one sistered joist that had a high spot but it was about 3/16th. I didn’t plane it just figured it deal with it. I think I will let it season then hit the joints with the orbital sander as needed. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## brushbuster

d_rek said:


> Question: I have some butt joints where the deck board or the sistered joists thickness isn’t perfect. Could or should I go through and sand down those joints to make them nice and seamless? The worst of them are 1/16th or so. Enough to notice but not bad enough to stub a toe or anything.
> 
> Tried googling but couldn’t find much.
> 
> 
> Sent from d_mobile


It's amazing how much those boards move after 2 years. All my joints were tight at install, not now.


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## mhergott82

kroppe said:


> Well done! Making nice progress.
> 
> When the time comes, I pitched my joists ever so slightly away from the house, the idea being to create a slight water shedding effect. A small detail, and likely didn't make a big difference on account of the designed gap between the Trex decking.


Q2 I b no b

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## Old Whaler

It looks as though it's too late but installing the decking from the outside in avoids having a partial (ripped) deck board at the end, but you may have anticipated that & dealt with it another way. You can always do some measuring as you go and work with your gaps. 

Cool project, hope you get a lot of time to enjoy the finished product.


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## KJC

december1979 said:


> Cedar decking should be kiln dried and ready for stain right away. This is why you space all the board because it will expand. Now treated decking will need to sit a year before you can stain it and it will shrink so it will need to be installed tight with no gaps.
> 
> The article posted does not explain what type of wood but I would certainly assume it's taking about treated decking.


Never, ever, let a deck sit for a year without sealing it. 
Yes you install the top tightly together, as the boards will shrink. Within a week you will have 1/8 to 3/16 gaps between the deck boards.
Sealing the lumber helps to lower the damage caused by the elements. Especially the sun. Use a stain or sealer that has a UV blocker.


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## december1979

KJC said:


> Never, ever, let a deck sit for a year without sealing it.
> Yes you install the top tightly together, as the boards will shrink. Within a week you will have 1/8 to 3/16 gaps between the deck boards.
> Sealing the lumber helps to lower the damage caused by the elements. Especially the sun. Use a stain or sealer that has a UV blocker.


Well, a dark green dripping wet treated deck will not take any stain/sealer or anything else (especially right now with treated wood shortage). Ask around to deck builders and people in construction they will all tell you the same thing. You can respond telling me I'm wrong or whatever, but I built 1000's of decks in the last 25 years so I'll stick to what I see works.

I just finished a treated deck yesterday and it was the wettest treated I have ever seen. It must be coming right out of the tanks, loaded on trucks and to the lumber yards, skipping the time they sit at the distributors yards. My local lumber yard told me that the lumber trucks are being unloaded right to their delivery trucks and currently out of most treated lumber.


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## december1979

d_rek said:


> What stain product do you prefer? Sikkens (now PPG) and TWP were already recommended. I'd have to order either, as nobody carries it locally (unless I can find it at an independent retailer).
> 
> We like a natural look, so a natural or honey-tone is what we were considering.


https://www.cabotstain.com/

They have a clear sealer or the Australian Timber Oil is really nice and has different tones to select from. I took a wood stain and sealer certification years ago and Cabot is one of the best, of course it's expensive but you get what you pay for.


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## d_rek

december1979 said:


> Cedar decking should be kiln dried and ready for stain right away. This is why you space all the board because it will expand. Now treated decking will need to sit a year before you can stain it and it will shrink so it will need to be installed tight with no gaps.
> 
> The article posted does not explain what type of wood but I would certainly assume it's taking about treated decking.





december1979 said:


> https://www.cabotstain.com/
> 
> They have a clear sealer or the Australian Timber Oil is really nice and has different tones to select from. I took a wood stain and sealer certification years ago and Cabot is one of the best, of course it's expensive but you get what you pay for.


The local lumberjack carries Cabot. Reviews I have found online are a bit middling, but IMO half the reviews are probably from people who's expectations were unrealistic to begin with or didn't apply it properly. What is your preferred application method? I was going to use an pump sprayer because it makes doing those railings easy peasy!


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## december1979

d_rek said:


> The local lumberjack carries Cabot. Reviews I have found online are a bit middling, but IMO half the reviews are probably from people who's expectations were unrealistic to begin with or didn't apply it properly. What is your preferred application method? I was going to use an pump sprayer because it makes doing those railings easy peasy!


Brush and a pad but I have have used a wager paint gun to do railing/spindles when there is a lot of it.


https://www.cabotstain.com/woodcarecouncil/staining-center/staining-ss-application.html

https://www.qvc.com/qvc.product.H29...q8LnDmkC-OGRtmmgRHvHXHZYVpcOUgTRoCJbgQAvD_BwE


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## Stand By

Also a fan of TWP. I applied with a cheap sprayer and brushed it in. Wear protection. If you decide to wait, use some compatible conditioner now, as mentioned. TWP wants the wood to gray out so it will act as a sponge on the surface to hold more product. IMHO, graying will help it wear faster under the foot, but I'm not an expert. Putting it on now, might leave needing a re-coat sooner than TWP recommends, but the surface might be a bit tougher. Almost 6 of one, half dozen of the other, but leaving me with leaning towards putting it down now. Cedar is naturally drier than pine and should soak it in anyway. For siding, their recommendation migh make more sense to me, as it's not being walked on. When I put it on my siding, it was kiln dried, so I applied immediately. It lasted a long time, but it was mostly in the shade as well.


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## d_rek

I officially declare this deck BUILT!


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## d_rek




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## sureshot006

awesome. And good call with no permanent benches on the perimeter.


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## d_rek

Now for the fun part: staining! 

This was my biggest DIY construction project to date. I did the majority of labor myself, though had a friend help me set posts, another haul some stone, and another help me pour concrete. But everything else - every screw, nail, scribe, rip, route, and joinery was 100% me. I really spent a lot of time researching, thinking about, and planning most of the details, though through inexperience there were a few oversights, but nothing that was a blocker or couldn't be overcome. My end goal was a deck that I would be extremely proud to show off and that would last for years, along with adding value to the home should we choose to sell.

To say it's overbuilt is probably an understatement, and some of the details I put in are definitely unnecessary. But it's my deck and I was able to build it the way I wanted it, so i'm happy about that (I am pedantic after all).

For the connectors and fasteners I used simpson strong-tie hardware for framing connections, with fastenmaster structural screws, simpson structural and connector screws and nails, and grip-rite stainless steel #10 screws to hold it all together. The majority of hardware came from big box stores, as local hardware stores just couldn't compete on price.

All of the framing lumber is select cut treated southern pine, and all of the face lumber is selkirk western red cedar. The lumber was 100% from local lumberjack stores.

The framing was pretty straightforward, but there was a couple minor oversights, such as not planning for butt joints and forgetting to put in a double joist (don't worry, I put them in). I attached a 2x8" ledger to the home using structural screws. I them sunk posts 42-48" and set them on concrete. Using the ledger as a datum I then scribed a level line coming off the ledger to my posts, subtracted the height of the beam and joist, and cut them down to correct height. The beams were two-ply 2x10" and were assembled with structural screws, which were then set directly on top of the posts. 2x8 joists were then installed (16 on center) and shimmed. I spent a fair amount of time shimming and leveling my joists to perfection, though still ended up with a few places of variation after some of the framing lumber started to dry out.

Laying down the deckboards was also rather simple, but I took my time when selecting deckboards to get the straightest, least beat up boards and it helped immensely. I used a 16 penny nail to space the deckboards evenly (measured at 3/16"). Every screw was piloted with a #10 countersink bit with the head of the screw even or slightly below the surface of the deckboard (c'mon, some of them may have been overdriven slightly lol). I cut 5 degree angles at the butt joints of the deckboards to get them as tight as possible, though in some cases joist or deckboard height variations prevented me from getting them seamless. I scribed boards to puzzle around all of my guard rail posts. I do not have any ripped deckboards, and waited until I had 4-5 rows left to put down before cutting the joists down so that I wouldn't have to rip a deckboard.

For guardrails posts I liked cleaner look of having the posts mounted to the inside of the joist, versus hanging off the exterior, even though it was a bit more work having to scribe the deckboards. Each post was bolted through with two 1/2" carriage bolts. Most of them were blocked between rim and 1st inboard joist, and a deck tensioner tieback was installed, making the guardrail posts rock solid. I screwed 2x4's in between each post with pocket hole joinery. I then added the guardrail cap, which was just a 5/4 deckboard. For my balusters I could not find any beveled cedar spindles so I had to by 2x8's and mill them down, then cut a bevel on them. Those were then spaced evenly (nothing more than 4", per code) between the guard rail posts.

My stairs were the only real 'snafu' of the whole project. I originally intended for them to mount outside the frame, with the last rise being the distance from the finished deckboard height to the first tread. However, due to a couple of mistakes, I ended up with flush mount (flush meaning the first tread of the stringer is flush with the top of the deck) instead of outside the frame. This worked out OK because I hadn't exactly planned for the exterior stair stringer framing properly (oops), and would have had to cobble together some header boards under the rim joist, along with ripping down another set of 4 stringers which would have meant more $$$ and time.... The one thing it made tricky though was my guardrail coming off from the deck. I was able to figure it out, and am happy with how it turned out.

The last detail was to add some fascia. I did not care for the look of the yellow pine, so opted to add deckboards along the rim joists, and a 1x12" cedar skirtboard along the stair stringers to clean up the appearance and hide ugly framing lumber and hardware. I lapped the joints on the fascia on the exterior rim joist as a minor detail as I like the clean, modern look of it, and kind of hate cutting miters. I may yet add some lattice as further decoration, but that will be a project for next year.

We absolutely love the look of the cedar. I have a particular fondness for wood with a lot of grain and character, and the cedar does not disappoint in that regard. Overall I'm really excited to be able to have a this addition to our home and be able to enjoy it with my family for years to come.


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## kroppe

d_rek said:


> Now for the fun part: staining!
> 
> This was my biggest DIY construction project to date. I did the majority of labor myself, though had a friend help me set posts, another haul some stone, and another help me pour concrete. But everything else - every screw, nail, scribe, rip, route, and joinery was 100% me. I really spent a lot of time researching, thinking about, and planning most of the details, though through inexperience there were a few oversights, but nothing that was a blocker or couldn't be overcome. My end goal was a deck that I would be extremely proud to show off and that would last for years, along with adding value to the home should we choose to sell.
> 
> To say it's overbuilt is probably an understatement, and some of the details I put in are definitely unnecessary. But it's my deck and I was able to build it the way I wanted it, so i'm happy about that (I am pedantic after all).
> 
> For the connectors and fasteners I used simpson strong-tie hardware for framing connections, with fastenmaster structural screws, simpson structural and connector screws and nails, and grip-rite stainless steel #10 screws to hold it all together. The majority of hardware came from big box stores, as local hardware stores just couldn't compete on price.
> 
> All of the framing lumber is select cut treated southern pine, and all of the face lumber is selkirk western red cedar. The lumber was 100% from local lumberjack stores.
> 
> The framing was pretty straightforward, but there was a couple minor oversights, such as not planning for butt joints and forgetting to put in a double joist (don't worry, I put them in). I attached a 2x8" ledger to the home using structural screws. I them sunk posts 42-48" and set them on concrete. Using the ledger as a datum I then scribed a level line coming off the ledger to my posts, subtracted the height of the beam and joist, and cut them down to correct height. The beams were two-ply 2x10" and were assembled with structural screws, which were then set directly on top of the posts. 2x8 joists were then installed (16 on center) and shimmed. I spent a fair amount of time shimming and leveling my joists to perfection, though still ended up with a few places of variation after some of the framing lumber started to dry out.
> 
> Laying down the deckboards was also rather simple, but I took my time when selecting deckboards to get the straightest, least beat up boards and it helped immensely. I used a 16 penny nail to space the deckboards evenly (measured at 3/16"). Every screw was piloted with a #10 countersink bit with the head of the screw even or slightly below the surface of the deckboard (c'mon, some of them may have been overdriven slightly lol). I cut 5 degree angles at the butt joints of the deckboards to get them as tight as possible, though in some cases joist or deckboard height variations prevented me from getting them seamless. I scribed boards to puzzle around all of my guard rail posts. I do not have any ripped deckboards, and waited until I had 4-5 rows left to put down before cutting the joists down so that I wouldn't have to rip a deckboard.
> 
> For guardrails posts I liked cleaner look of having the posts mounted to the inside of the joist, versus hanging off the exterior, even though it was a bit more work having to scribe the deckboards. Each post was bolted through with two 1/2" carriage bolts. Most of them were blocked between rim and 1st inboard joist, and a deck tensioner tieback was installed, making the guardrail posts rock solid. I screwed 2x4's in between each post with pocket hole joinery. I then added the guardrail cap, which was just a 5/4 deckboard. For my balusters I could not find any beveled cedar spindles so I had to by 2x8's and mill them down, then cut a bevel on them. Those were then spaced evenly (nothing more than 4", per code) between the guard rail posts.
> 
> My stairs were the only real 'snafu' of the whole project. I originally intended for them to mount outside the frame, with the last rise being the distance from the finished deckboard height to the first tread. However, due to a couple of mistakes, I ended up with flush mount (flush meaning the first tread of the stringer is flush with the top of the deck) instead of outside the frame. This worked out OK because I hadn't exactly planned for the exterior stair stringer framing properly (oops), and would have had to cobble together some header boards under the rim joist, along with ripping down another set of 4 stringers which would have meant more $$$ and time.... The one thing it made tricky though was my guardrail coming off from the deck. I was able to figure it out, and am happy with how it turned out.
> 
> The last detail was to add some fascia. I did not care for the look of the yellow pine, so opted to add deckboards along the rim joists, and a 1x12" cedar skirtboard along the stair stringers to clean up the appearance and hide ugly framing lumber and hardware. I lapped the joints on the fascia on the exterior rim joist as a minor detail as I like the clean, modern look of it, and kind of hate cutting miters. I may yet add some lattice as further decoration, but that will be a project for next year.
> 
> We absolutely love the look of the cedar. I have a particular fondness for wood with a lot of grain and character, and the cedar does not disappoint in that regard. Overall I'm really excited to be able to have a this addition to our home and be able to enjoy it with my family for years to come.


@d_rek Congratulations! The craftsmanship and attention to detail is apparent. Many enjoyable mornings, days and evenings ahead, on the deck!

If you do another flooring project (bathroom tile, kitchen tile), your deck experience with help. 100% of success is related to the structure and underlayment. The pretty stuff on top (cedar decking or tile for kitchen/bath) is the easy part. 

How did you decide to use Simpson hardware vs. other options? 

Did you cut your own stair stringers? 

Again, well done and congratulations.


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## d_rek

kroppe said:


> @d_rek Congratulations! The craftsmanship and attention to detail is apparent. Many enjoyable mornings, days and evenings ahead, on the deck!
> 
> If you do another flooring project (bathroom tile, kitchen tile), your deck experience with help. 100% of success is related to the structure and underlayment. The pretty stuff on top (cedar decking or tile for kitchen/bath) is the easy part.
> 
> How did you decide to use Simpson hardware vs. other options?
> 
> Did you cut your own stair stringers?
> 
> Again, well done and congratulations.


The Simpson hardware was readily available pretty much everywhere. Lowe’s had a different brand for some items at a slightly lower cost, but the savings would have been minimal. 

Yes I cut my own stringers and the online stringer calculator was one of the reasons I had the little goof. The online calculator didn’t indicate that one of the rises was actually the rim joist, and I didn’t pickup on it before measuring and making my cuts. I tried to remedy by cutting it off at the last rise but for whatever reason the math wasn’t working out and it didn’t line up when I dry fitted the stringer. Leaving me with a rise depth that didn’t work. Again, wasn’t exactly how I imagined it but it worked out in the end. Measuring and cutting them wasn’t the most difficult thing however though I’m sure someone with more experience would have caught on to the issue right away did the math and cut them right 


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## d_rek

Bring on the stain!! 










Got a couple samples that we tried and both the wife and I like the Cabot Australian timber oil “Honey Teak” the best. Close race between that and TWP “Honeytone”. The TWP cedar time and natural were basically indistinguishable from each other. The other we tried was Cabot natural, but again very close to others. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## d_rek

All right stain masters... I need some advice on how to prep. I ordered 3 gal. of TWP to apply over the next week or two. Surface is basically good except a few spots showing signs of mildew growth/black spots, also some staining from dirt in traffic areas. 

Should I power wash? Scrub w/ some sort of cleaner? Not exactly sure what the best way to go about this is. I have a deck brush, TSP, and bleach already on hand too.


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## d_rek

@KJC Looking for advice to prep deck before I stain. Need to knock back some of the mildew that is starting to form. Can i just scrub with bleach and TSP or do I need to use TWP's gemini products?


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## sureshot006

I wouldn't power wash. Might cause a fuzzy look.


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## KJC

d_rek said:


> @KJC Looking for advice to prep deck before I stain. Need to knock back some of the mildew that is starting to form. Can i just scrub with bleach and TSP or do I need to use TWP's gemini products?


Should work, but do a test area in an inconspicuous spot. Perhaps a stair tread so if any damage occurs, the replacement, if needed is minimal.


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## brushbuster

Bleach will kill the mold and fungus, tsp will remove dirt and grime. I wouldnt power wash unless you have greying going on.


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## FREEPOP

Vinegar will kill the mold and fungus as well as help prevent it from returning.


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## d_rek

Thanks for replies and tips. I just ended up ordering some of TWP gemini product as it came in a bundle with 5gal of stain. I wont power wash. Just brush/scrub on as prescribed by manufacturer. Hoping we get a good stretch of dry weather next week.


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## Walleyze247

I used TWP on my cedar deck. I followed the website recommendations when it was new. I have used the Gemini kit and refinished it twice. I think the Gemini product is pretty amazing. I think TWP looks great for a year but needs to be redone every few years. I think my deck is about 7 years old and we used Honey Tone as well.


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## d_rek

Walleyze247 said:


> I used TWP on my cedar deck. I followed the website recommendations when it was new. I have used the Gemini kit and refinished it twice. I think the Gemini product is pretty amazing. I think TWP looks great for a year but needs to be redone every few years. I think my deck is about 7 years old and we used Honey Tone as well.


I’m about to scrub it with the Gemini deck stuff this evening, and stain tomorrow. Weather looks good for next couple of days. Also using honey tone. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## d_rek

Off to buy a power washer this AM... tried scrubbing and it was brutal. Got half the deck done in 2 hrs... was able to lift most of the grey but TWP is telling me it needs to be all gone, and I still have another half of deck to do. I also broke the brush handle so... yeah I won’t be scrubbing it twice. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## Topshelf

I had an older deck that I power washed but I used the concrete attachment on it. Which is basically a round attachment that spins and cleans concrete for in this case a deck
Worked great on my deck You just got to keep it moving. Worth every penny because I've used it on the concrete out front in my driveway and works great









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## d_rek

Many hours later... Deck has been cleaned and brightened. Stain going down before the end of the week. 

Gotta admit I was skeptical of the Gemini product from TWP but the before and after was quite dramatic. Should have taken pictures. Also seeing all the crud lift up from the cleaner was eye opening as well. 


Sent from d_mobile


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## kroppe

Looks great @d_rek ! Plus a tool opportunity. A win-win if there ever was one. Looking forward to the stain photos.


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## d_rek

And it's.... STAINED!































Took the better part of the day but got it done. Sprayer I bought worked OK-ish. Overspray was difficult if not impossible to manage. I did the rails and ballusters with the sprayer and back brushed most of it it seemed. I attempted a few rows of deck boards with the sprayer and it was quick but also put a ton of stain down, so I just ended up brushing them all. Not a big deal and not sure I lost any more time than it would have taken to back brush every row because stain was going down too thick. 

We LOVE the color. Obviously still wet and needs to dry. When I tested it on boards a few weeks back it had dried to a nice matte, non-tacky finish within 48 hrs. Hoping the warm weather accelerates that as we've scheduled our official 'deck party' tomorrow


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## kroppe

Well done @d_rek ! Looks great.


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## Walleyze247

I like the color.


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## Martin Looker

Treated lumber is stupid expensive right now. 4x4 treated were just over 6 dollars last spring are going for about 20 dollars right now if you can find them. I'm putting my project until next summer. If you can find treated lumber around here it's all really expensive because of supply and demand.


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## Shagy

@d-rek this thread motivated me to build the deck I always wanted and I want to thank you for posting and the motivation to tackle this with little help. I built mine in June/July before all the lumber shortages and skyrocketing prices. Thought I'd share what you motivated me to do. This is Trex decking and we absolutely love it.


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