# Thoughts Wanted on Crossbow Proposal



## bradymsu (Mar 3, 2008)

I am the committee aide for State Rep. Joel Sheltrown, the chair of the House Natural Resources Committee. Recently, Rep. Sheltrown introduced HB 5741 due to hunter demand and because no meetings had taken place with the Crossbow workgroup the NRC set up last summer.

The NRC's Crossbow Workgroup has met after HB 5741 was introduced and will meet again prior to the April NRC meeting. Out of respect for Proposal G, Rep. Sheltrown will not take action on HB 5741 unless the workgroup fails to submit a reasonable plan to the NRC at its May meeting.

Under HB 5741, the disability threshold would be reduced from 80% to 60%, people with neuromuscular diseases would no longer have to be re-tested annually and most importantly, crossbows could be used by anyone 69 years or older during the October bow season. We have already been approached by legislators and hunters proposing amendments to move the automatic age to 65, 55 or to simply not to discriminate between crossbows and compound bows for anyone.

The intent on the bill is to increase the number of hunters in the field in October, particularly those hunters who would hunt with a compound bow if they were physically able to. Neighboring areas such as Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin and Ontario all allow crossbow use during their early deer archery season for either the general population or seniors regardless of disability.

We would appreciate the feedback of Michigan hunters regarding this proposal and suggestions for changes.


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

I think anything anyone can do to enhance hunter numbers and the hunting experience is a good thing............

I for one have been pro crossbow with no exemptions for the past 4 years and glad to see at someone has the gumption to attempt to ease the stranglehold the crossbow exemption has had on the sport. 

Bravo and good luck......


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

My vote would be to drop the age exemption nonsense and legalize them for everyone.


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## Mich. Buck Wacker (Nov 10, 2005)

The way I see it is if you are allwed a certain number of deer each year what does it matter what type of weapon you use?


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

bradymsu 
Thank you for comming on M-S looking for input on the crossbow issue. 

I am all for at least allowing any one above the age of 60 to use a cross bow during any season they wish if not just let anyone that choses to use them during the archery deer season to do so. As a polio survivor I have been unable to draw my bow for years but did not pass the present criteria nor would I pass the 60% criteria. It sure would be nice to be able to spend some time deer hunting in the nice weather of October.

How about an email address that we can send comments directly to Rep Sheltrown.

Tom


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

The bill is a fine first step in the issue of crossbow use. I support it 100%.

In reality I strongly believe that crossbows should be legalized for the general bowhunting season.

I suspect you will hear a loud outcry against the bill and if it was suggested that the weapon be legalized for the regular archery season you would hear explosions of disgust from bowhunters and, if things go as they have in these forums in the past, a lot of information and even "data" that spout reasons why crossbow regulations should not be altered.

The reasons given, as I've seen in these forums are, for the most part, bogus.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

bradymsu said:


> Under HB 5741, the disability threshold would be reduced from 80% to 60%, people with neuromuscular diseases would no longer have to be re-tested annually and most importantly, crossbows could be used by anyone 69 years or older during the October bow season.


I'd be willing to go along with this.

Personally, I think the woods are _way _to crowded as it is during both seasons, firearms _and _bow. A guy only has to read the deer forum starting in Oct. to see I'm not alone in this thought.

Also, if anyone believes that the _biggest_ reason the powers that be want " more " hunters in the woods is because they care about creating new oppertunities for the old or lame and not more *cold hard cash* are living in a dream world. 

It all about the money, not helping Grandpa.

Like I already stated in my above quote, I have no problem with folks that meet that critera, that includes me when I get there.


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

Mich. Buck Wacker said:


> The way I see it is if you are allwed a certain number of deer each year what does it matter what type of weapon you use?




Michigan Buck Wacker you know that by picking up a crossbow you are automatically allowed to kill as many deer as you want........

Your post hits the nail directly on the head.............you are only allowed X number of deer a year regardless..............

Dumbest law/restriction I have seen............


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

bradymsu said:


> I am the committee aide for State Rep. Joel Sheltrown, the chair of the House Natural Resources Committee. Recently, Rep. Sheltrown introduced HB 5741 due to hunter demand and because no meetings had taken place with the Crossbow workgroup the NRC set up last summer.
> 
> The NRC's Crossbow Workgroup has met after HB 5741 was introduced and will meet again prior to the April NRC meeting. Out of respect for Proposal G, Rep. Sheltrown will not take action on HB 5741 unless the workgroup fails to submit a reasonable plan to the NRC at its May meeting.
> 
> ...


I AM FOR EVERYONE being able to pursue whitetail deer in any manner they wish to WITH NO RESTRICTIONS what soever as long as they follow the present game laws ON LIMITS. there is absolutely no reason for not allowing CROSSBOWS FOR ANYONE other than the MBHs convoluted ideas, which are FOUNDLESS AND BASELESS AT BEST. i was bow hunting way before the age of compoud bows and everyone back then didn't want them either they said the same lame garbage back then about compounds as they're saying now about making CROSSBOWS LEGAL. THEY'LL KILL ALL THE DEER, NO SPORT, NOT IN MY SEASON (like they own the season) TO HIGH TECH, TO EASY, AND ON AND ON. high tech my butt tell that to the VIKINGS. WAKE UP AND JUST DO THE RIGHT THING AND ***QUIT*** STOPPING PEOPLE FROM HUNTING WITH A CROSSBOW. we need all the sportsmen and sportswomen in the woods enjoying the ******HUNT*****, it's not about the killing. i can kill 100 deer a year with my guns if they let me thats really easy to do. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HUNT PERIOD! this is just 1/10 of a pennies worth from me if you want the whole 2 cents worth send me an e-mail and you'll get it.:coolgleam


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## jaybe (Sep 3, 2007)

I totally agree that crossbows should be a legal weapon during any season. All the arguments about them being "cross guns" is silly as far as I'm concerned. The distinction between a firearm and a bow is not how it is held for firing. The diffference is that one uses powder to push a projectile, and one uses a string to push an arrow.



> The way I see it is if you are allwed a certain number of deer each year what does it matter what type of weapon you use?


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## Doctari (Mar 22, 2005)

It has Trigger, oppose the idea.


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## LungBuster 21 (Oct 5, 2006)

Wake up NRC....Lower hunter numbers means less $ to DNR which means less $ for managing Michigan's wildlife. We should all welcome the use of the crossbow to Michigan hunting for anyone so inclined. If you've ever hunted with a crossbow you know it's loud and one shot is all your going to get not to mention the amount of time it takes to reload. Anything we now hunt with a bow should be able to hunt with a crossbow(deer,turkey, bear, elk,etc). NO CROSSBOW RESTRICTIONS.:lol:


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## bradymsu (Mar 3, 2008)

Joel Sheltrown can be reached by e-mail at [email protected].


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

Doctari said:


> It has Trigger, oppose the idea.


what exactly do you think :help:a compound release has more baseless and foundless thinking:coolgleam it also has a shorter arrow called a bolt i'll bet that makes it go faster too!


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## MIHandgunhunter (Mar 1, 2008)

Allow them in with no restrictions.


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## PioneerMoose (Mar 29, 2008)

I am for the age approval of 55+ for crossbows. This past year my father, who I have shared hunting times with since I was 6, had shoulder surgery during the summer. His recovery was very slow and was not eligble for a crossbow permit. At 32 years of age, this was the first year I was not able to share the hunting experience with good ol dad. I'll tell ya what, this year definetly opened my eyes as to what it will be like without Dad at hunting camp. I have always tried to explain to non hunters that hunting is more than just the harvest of an animal. It is an experience of emotions between family, friends and nature, that is at sometimes hard to describe in words alone. Hopefully he will come back strong this year, but if the law doesnt change to allow an age of at least 60+ (he's currently 63) he may miss another season, which will hurt me, but more importantly will devastate him.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Doctari said:


> It has Trigger, oppose the idea.


I guess that rules out 99% of compound users, too.


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## Radar420 (Oct 7, 2004)

Munsterlndr said:


> I guess that rules out 99% of compound users, too.


I was thinking the same thing and then I looked at his/her previous posts and the majority are in the Traditional Archery forum so I could see his viewpoint.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Radar420 said:


> I was thinking the same thing and then I looked at his/her previous posts and the majority are in the Traditional Archery forum so I could see his viewpoint.


It's still hypocritical unless you want to get rid of 99% of Michigans bowhunters who use releases. But then again, you may have a point. There are an awful lot of trad guys who think getting rid of compounds would be just peachy!


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

Munsterlndr said:


> It's still hypocritical unless you want to get rid of 99% of Michigans bowhunters who use releases. But then again, you may have a point. There are an awful lot of trad guys who think getting rid of compounds would be just peachy!


YES, ME :gaga:ME :gaga:AND MORE ME:gaga: AND ONLY MY WAY:gaga::coolgleam


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## 7MM Magnum (Sep 10, 2003)

I'll ditto what Whit1 had to say ,.. I've been involved in SO MANY discussions regarding crossbows it isn't funny.

Some of the lame excuses that have come up to disallow them is simply ludicrous. There just some traditional archers out there that are so wound up in themselves and having things THEIR way and if they can't have it they'll banter you to death. I too had started archery out at a very young age,.. long bows, recurves, using a 3 finger glove, just within the past 12 years I had entered the compound era using a mechanical release. 

Now,.. take that compound bow of yours and hold it horizontally,.. now mount a 2"x4"x 28"-30" to the riser,.. add a makeshift locking trigger "RELEASE" and wallah' instant crossbow! 

I just can't understand for the life of me WHAT all the big fuss is about  

All of us being outdoorsmen and women should be able to understand all of this. Would you tell your father, uncle, brother that they had to QUIT the joy of their life hunting just to pacify some archaic mindset that it really isn't bow hunting using a crossbow ?? :16suspect

Give me a break!!


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Regarding Brady's question:

There is absolutely no good reason not to allow the unrestricted use of crossbows during archery seasons.

Statistics from Ohio and other states show that there is no inherent advantage to crossbows that results in an increased rate of harvest, as compared to vertical bows.

Concerns about it bringing too many more hunters into the field are unwarranted. In Wisconsin, when they legalized crossbows for seniors, I think it resulted in something like 5,000 additional hunters. Less than 10 years ago Michigan had almost 50,000 more bow hunters in the woods than we do today. Even if 50,000 new hunters took up the crossbow (which is highly unlikely) it would have almost no measurable impact on the resource.

The second buck tag in Michigan results in 32,000 additional bucks being harvested each year, a number that the DNR has deemed "Insignificant". In order to equal that number of additional bucks in the harvest you would have to add almost 200,000 new crossbow hunters to the ranks, which is not going to happen in anybodies wildest dreams. 

Allowing crossbows would allow more Youths and Woman and Seniors to participate in our sport, demographics that would substantially strengthen the perception of hunters among the non-hunting public. 

Get rid of the restrictions, it's past time!


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## NonTypicalCPA (Feb 16, 2007)

I'm 37 and in good physical health. I am for letting anyone hunt with a crossbow during bow season.


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

Brady,

The bill is perfect as is. I support it 100%.

However, if the age for unrestricted use were lowered below 69, I would respectfully suggest that unrestricted use be permitted solely on private land. Firearm season on public land in the NLP is a friggen zoo and I do not enjoy it in the least. However, I couldn't care less as to an individuals choice of weapon on private land.

Thanks,
Andrew


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## doublell (Feb 8, 2007)

bought my x-bow when lived in Ohio the first time, age late 40's. will be 66 this year. I have had a couple of operations on my spine and trying hard to not have another on my lower back. arthritic in my hands, feet, shoulders and spine. Would like to hunt with the x-bow but I have too much pride to go thru the BS this state expects someone like me to go thru to hunt with the weapon of my choice. In some respects I equate it to applying for a handicapped parking permit. I can still walk from a normal spot leaving the handicaped spot for someone who cannot so I don't have one. But then how many times do we see some able bodied person abusing that privledge. I'll gladly give up my pursuit of a x-bow non-conditional use license if everyone goes back to using a bow made up of a string and a stick, all rifles will be single shot open iron site, black powder will be flintlock, shotguns will be single shot smooth bore, I think you get my drift. All of the purists arguments to deny need to remember the resources of this state and the right to purse them belong to everyone .


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## outdooralex (Jan 7, 2002)

I for one would like to see them open a crossbow season. My father is 67 years old and has bow hunted since I started. I was 12 at the time and now I am 39. My father is not the serious hunter and does not gun hunt, but he goes out with myself and my brother. Its just a father and his two sons kind of thing. Last year the tendonitis in his shoulder got to be to bad and could not pull his bow back. This was the first archery season he has missed in 26 years. The tendonitis is not getting any better after rehab and medication he probably will have to miss another season. I missed having my dad go out with us and I know it was killing him staying in. 67 year old is to young to stop bow hunting but if he could use a cross bow he could easily extend that a few more years!!!!


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## utan (Mar 21, 2002)

Mich. Buck Wacker said:


> The way I see it is if you are allwed a certain number of deer each year what does it matter what type of weapon you use?



Using that line of reasoning we should be able to use a gun during bowseason too.

Right to bear arms baby:rant:


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## skyhawk1 (Jun 20, 2006)

I agree to allow hunters aged 65 and hunters under 12 to use crossbows during regular season, as far as everyone else, we need to think about all the idiots running the woods in november and do we really want to have the same thing in october? the crossbow allows easy sight in, and can be outfitted with scopes allowing someone with NO bowhunting experience to hunt in october. do we want to have to wear orange in the bow stand? think about these things guys before you run off at the mouth.


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## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

I support the bill 100%...M


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

I'm thinking a State Rep. reading some of the posts in this thread would be mortified........:sad: :rant:


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## 7MM Magnum (Sep 10, 2003)

skyhawk1 said:


> I agree to allow hunters aged 65 and hunters under 12 to use crossbows during regular season, as far as everyone else, we need to think about all the idiots running the woods in november and do we really want to have the same thing in october? the crossbow allows easy sight in, and can be outfitted with scopes allowing someone with NO bowhunting experience to hunt in october. do we want to have to wear orange in the bow stand? think about these things guys before you run off at the mouth.


OK,.. here we go again :gaga:  

Now your honestly gonna' set there and try and tell a archer, ANY archer that a crossbow is any easier to sight in than a compound? If you know how to shoot a bow,.. any bow,.. it's pretty much the same. 

And in the same breath your also trying to say you have never seen a scope on a bow either ?? :lol: 

Just WHO are you trying to kid,... yourself ??

How long have you been shooting for anyhow ?? :16suspect


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

brady, 
I support the addition of crossbows to the archery season for all hunters.

Have you or are you doing any research on the full legalization of crossbows for everyone. I believe you would find that in the states were it has been legalized it has added opportunity for many hunters with no ill effects on the deer herd. And may also result in increased revenue for license sales. If you would like I as well as others on this sight have a ton of information that we can e-mail you. 

I appreciate all of the hard work that Joel and yourself did to try to preserve the public access here at Higgins Lake. I would urge you to think of the legalisation of crossbows as a public access issue also. I believe if you look at the results in other states you will find no scientific reason not to. 

If we send some stuff to Joel's e-mail will you get it also, or is there another address? In the meantime I would encourage you to do a search here about crossbows, A lot of good info has already been posted. You might have to wade through a lot of bull**** to get to it. But I know you have some expierience with that. You should also take into cosideration that this site is composed of some of the most hardcore deer hunters in the state so sometimes it can get a little nasty. heres a poll taken a while back it would probably be a good place to start. 

View Poll Results: Your opinion on the crossbow situation. 
The current regulations are fine.  19 14.62% 
The disability criteria needs adjusted and they should leave out the age stipulation. 18 13.85% 
The proposed change is good and keep the 65 age criteria. 23 17.69% 
Crossbows ARE archery equipment and should be included for everyone in the archery season. 70 53.85% 
Voters: 130. This poll is closed 
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185633&highlight=crossbow+poll

And while we got your ear another major issue is the linquist proposal/ mandatory antler restrictions. That is coming before the NRC on april 10 th. This is probably a hotter issue than the crossbow issue. I think you would find that the majority of michigan hunters are strongly against it. I certainly hope that the NRC is not bullied by special interest groups on this one like they have been on the crossbow issue amoung others.

.... hey guys Brady is Rep Sheltrowns go to guy. They came here looking for input. It would be a good time to present "profesional" type answers without the bickering. Not that I dont enjoy the bickering.

For those who dont know Rep Sheltrown is the Chairman of the House Committee On Tourism, Outdoor Recreation, and Natural Resources. I know that he relys heavily on Brady to gather the info he need to make decisions. This is too good of opportunity to waste.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

skyhawk1 said:


> as far as everyone else, we need to think about all the idiots running the woods in november and do we really want to have the same thing in october? the crossbow allows easy sight in, and can be outfitted with scopes allowing someone with NO bowhunting experience to hunt in october. do we want to have to wear orange in the bow stand? think about these things guys before you run off at the mouth.


We already have idiots running around the woods in October, those idiots that don't put in enough practice time to be able to accurately shoot a bow or those idiots that think because they can hit a stationary target in their back yard at 50 yards that it means they can hit a deer at the same range. The result is that there are tens of thousands of wounded unrecovered deer every archery. season. Idiots are going to be idiots whether they are using a compound, a crossbow or a 30-06. When you have 650,000 hunters it's bound to happen. While that may be the case, since crossbow users are no less or no more likely to be idiots than any other kind of hunter, that argument ceases to be a legitimate one for keeping crossbows out of the woods.

As far as crossbows being too easy to sight in; I just have to laugh. So what's the advantage of forcing the novice hunter to use a more difficult weapon that may cause them to shoot at a live animal with a lower degree of accuracy? Please tell me you can come up with something better than that! 

The wearing of Orange is another strawman, since crossbows have the same relative range and power of a vertical compound bow. Both are close range weapons that require that the hunter be close enough to clearly identify his target. Show me some statistics from Ohio or another State that show that crossbows are involved in significantly more accidents than vertical bows and it might lend some credence to your argument. I've looked, however, and the only accident stats that I can find show virtually no difference.

Most of the time it seems that what it boils down to is that some hunters are concerned that somebody else is going to shoot "their" buck, so they will manufacture any strawman argument they can to try and muddy the waters and raise doubts, despite the lack of any evidence to support their contentions. The old adage, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with Bull****" certainly comes to mind!


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## bradymsu (Mar 3, 2008)

Joel shares his e-mail with me regarding natural resource issues. If anyone wants to send something to me directly, I'm at [email protected]. Having survived the budget battles of 2007, nothing said on this site about crossbows is going to mortify any legislator. It's a very rough business.

Thanks Swampbuck for your comments on public access. If one were to take a look at the type of legislation Sheltrown has been taking up in committee the focus is to increase public participation in outdoor activities. The lake use bills, the ORVs on county roads bill, the firearms bills, no net loss, crossbows, even smaller impact things like the falconry bill up this week are examples. Reducing regulation and opening up opportunities makes a lot of sense for outdoor enthusiasts living in Michigan, the people we are hoping to attract from out of state and the health of the state's outdoor programs.


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## beervo2 (May 7, 2006)

PLEASE, do something about this crossbow mess, there should be no restrictions, especially if your hunting on private land, the other states did it and they don't have any problems..Could you please keep us updated on the subject..


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Brady,
Its unfortunate that we dont have more outdoorsmen like him in the house and senate. I follow several of the issues that you mentioned and Rep Sheltrown always puts up a good fight for us. His focus on public access/opportunity is the reason I voted for him.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

swampbuck said:


> And while we got your ear another major issue is the linquist proposal/ mandatory antler restrictions. That is coming before the NRC on april 10 th. This is probably a hotter issue than the crossbow issue. I think you would find that the majority of michigan hunters are strongly against it. I certainly hope that the NRC is not bullied by special interest groups on this one like they have been on the crossbow issue amoung others.


 
Let's keep this thread on topic please.


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## skyhawk1 (Jun 20, 2006)

7MM Magnum said:


> Now your honestly gonna' set there and try and tell a archer, ANY archer that a crossbow is any easier to sight in than a compound?
> And in the same breath your also trying to say you have never seen a scope on a bow either ?? :lol:
> How long have you been shooting for anyhow ?? :16suspect


let's start here...first of all my shooting time isn't the issue here, I paid my dues and have taken all different types and sizes of game with my bow, both without a sight, and with a SCOPE on my bow. I have also taken some trigger time with my dad's crossbow when it was time to sight it in. bottomline is you remove the human factor from the draw, shooting form, release ect with a crossbow. there is no difference between this and a rifle.


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## skyhawk1 (Jun 20, 2006)

Munsterlndr said:


> We already have idiots running around the woods in October, those idiots that don't put in enough practice time to be able to accurately shoot a bow
> As far as crossbows being too easy to sight in; I just have to laugh. So what's the advantage of forcing the novice hunter to use a more difficult weapon that may cause them to shoot at a live animal with a lower degree of accuracy?


you need to read the above post to see my stance on ease of sighting in. as far as novice hunters, if they don't have the practice time, they shouldn't be in the woods. as kids we spent HOURS shooting our bows so we could be accurate enough to hunt. we didn't use sights and even today, I won't hesitate to shoot instinctively. at our hunting camp, if you don't pass our expectations of accuracy, you don't hunt, plain and simple. I shoot my bow year round and the animals deserve for us to be the best we can be. the state only needs to allow the handicapped, younger, and older hunters that maybe can't pull enough draw weight to be effective to hunt with crossbows during regular archery season. let the 30 some year olds that want to hunt use the same equipment everyone else uses. and we should also make IBEP mandatory the same as hunters safety. lets not promote laziness here, lets keep the sport clean.


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## utan (Mar 21, 2002)

Just what we need. More "bowhunters" in the woods before the gun opener.I'm a died in the wool gun hunter and I think bowhunters have it too good now. Put more in the woods before the rut? I think not.


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## tmb (Apr 5, 2001)

If it doesnt need to drawn and held in the presence of the game hunted its not a bow and therefore does not belong in archery season unless disabled, regardless of age.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

skyhawk1 said:


> you need to read the above post to see my stance on ease of sighting in. as far as novice hunters, if they don't have the practice time, they shouldn't be in the woods. as kids we spent HOURS shooting our bows so we could be accurate enough to hunt. we didn't use sights and even today, I won't hesitate to shoot instinctively. at our hunting camp, if you don't pass our expectations of accuracy, you don't hunt, plain and simple. I shoot my bow year round and the animals deserve for us to be the best we can be. the state only needs to allow the handicapped, younger, and older hunters that maybe can't pull enough draw weight to be effective to hunt with crossbows during regular archery season. let the 30 some year olds that want to hunt use the same equipment everyone else uses. and we should also make IBEP mandatory the same as hunters safety. lets not promote laziness here, lets keep the sport clean.


Whether someone shouldn't be in the woods with a vertical bow if they have not adequately practiced is a moot point. The FACT is that tens of thousands of archers take to the woods every year without having adequately prepared. Just like tens of thousands of firearms hunters get their rifle out of the case the day before deer season and fire one or two shots at a pine tree and call it good. Your naive if you think that is not the case. So your premise that the sport is already "clean" is simply BS. Ask Ninja or anyone else who works at a sporting goods store how many times they have seen somebody come in to buy a bow a day or two before the season. How many archers actually tune their bow properly every year? The State is not going to introduce any kind of mandatory accuracy test so don't even bother going there. There is not the manpower or the resources or the desire to do so. Instead of living in some bow hunters utopia lets examine the real world and the state of hunting in Michigan. If crossbows are easier to use and allow more people to participate in utilizing a public resource, then they should be legalized. The deer herd is a public resource, not the property of one particular group of sportsmen. There have been absolutely no negative consequences in allowing crossbows in archery season in Ohio or in any of the dozen other states that have liberalized their use. The only legitimate reason there would be to not allow the expansion of crossbows would be if there was a substantive negative impact on the deer herd itself. There is plenty of data available to show what the potential impact would be and none of it appears to be negative. In point of fact, the positive impact that crossbow expansion would have on helping to deal with the chronic overpopulation in the SLP is reason enough to legalize them during archery. The DNR is already considering early antlereless firearms seasons. Crossbows would simply provide additional help in solving this problem.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

wally-eye said:


> I'm thinking a State Rep. reading some of the posts in this thread would be mortified........:sad: :rant:


i would rather all the state reps watch and read all these post's, due to the FACTS that are presented VERSUS all the myths. then use the scale of justice and let the scientific side WIN HANDS DOWN AND MOVE ON. 
IS IT CROSSBOW SEASON YET:evilsmile


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## Backwoods-Savage (Aug 28, 2005)

multibeard said:


> bradymsu
> Thank you for comming on M-S looking for input on the crossbow issue.
> 
> I am all for at least allowing any one above the age of 60 to use a cross bow during any season they wish if not just let anyone that choses to use them during the archery deer season to do so. As a polio survivor I have been unable to draw my bow for years but did not pass the present criteria nor would I pass the 60% criteria. It sure would be nice to be able to spend some time deer hunting in the nice weather of October.
> ...


As another polio survivor, I also am for allowing the crossbow. 

One other note: If it is kept as disabled only, then the word disabled needs to be better described. As Tom stated, he had been unable to draw his bow. But if a person still has use of their arms, according to the law today he is not disabled. Why not? If they do not have full use of the arms and can't draw the bow, they are disabled.


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## buckinoff69 (Mar 13, 2008)

how about a crossbow season? i think all of september for crossbow season would be great.a good way to thin out the heard.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Brady,
Sheltrowns e-mail address dont appear to be working, I sent you a couple e-mails. More to come.


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## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

Mich. Buck Wacker said:


> The way I see it is if you are allwed a certain number of deer each year what does it matter what type of weapon you use?


 
Most everyone will agree-BUT when can the crossbow shooter use his weapon? bow season, muzzleloader or gun??

Now that bows are different than in the 60's, it is getting to where it really dont matter. 

Rereading the above quote one could also ask why not hunt at night--as long as the quota is in place and not exceeded. I suspect it has to do with violating the law and anyone out after xx hr are assumed to be violators-kinda like drivers leaving the bar at 230 AM. I guiess they like late night chili.


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

My choice would be to legalize crossbows for ALL seasons and all legal hunting ages. I don't see any drawbacks for allowing them for small game or anything else that is OK for any bow.


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## skyhawk1 (Jun 20, 2006)

Munsterlndr said:


> The State is not going to introduce any kind of mandatory accuracy test so don't even bother going there.
> 
> In point of fact, the positive impact that crossbow expansion would have on helping to deal with the chronic overpopulation in the SLP is reason enough to legalize them during archery. The DNR is already considering early antlereless firearms seasons. Crossbows would simply provide additional help in solving this problem.


never once did I say the STATE should impliment an accuracy test what I SAID was they should make IBEP mandatory for those of you that are NIEVE, this is the International Bowhunters Education Program and it is mandatory in quite a few states and provinces here's the list: Alaska, South Dakota, Nebraska,  Montana,  Idaho,  Connecticut,  Louisiana,  Quebec,  Kansas,  Rhode Island,  New York,  New Brunswick,  Maine,  New Hampshire,  New Jersey,  Nova Scotia, and Vermont 

as far as the deer herd, I'm not worried about them, they take care of themselves. I'm not even worried about sharing the state land, it belongs to everyone. the thing that bothers me is that yes there are people that don't prepare, and legalizing crossbows will just broaden thier numbers. so not only will we have the usual number of "my stand/trailcam got stolen" threads, but more "this guy sat down right by me" and " i almost got shot" threads as well as others. how SAFE would you feel small game hunting with your dog? or Duck hunting a wooded pond? how many stands do you want to lose? how many "secret" spots on state land are you willing to give up? it isn't gonna matter because if you get your way, oct 1 will be no different than nov 15.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

skyhawk1 said:


> as far as the deer herd, I'm not worried about them, they take care of themselves. I'm not even worried about sharing the state land, it belongs to everyone. the thing that bothers me is that yes there are people that don't prepare, and legalizing crossbows will just broaden thier numbers. so not only will we have the usual number of "my stand/trailcam got stolen" threads, but more "this guy sat down right by me" and " i almost got shot" threads as well as others. how SAFE would you feel small game hunting with your dog? or Duck hunting a wooded pond? how many stands do you want to lose? how many "secret" spots on state land are you willing to give up? it isn't gonna matter because if you get your way, oct 1 will be no different than nov 15.


So it sounds like you are not in favor of expanding hunter numbers regardless of the weapon that is used because;

A) It will result in more stands/trailcams being stolen (pretty high opinion of your fellow hunters) 

B) It will increase the chance of getting accidentally shot, (In 2006 approx. 650,000 hunters resulted in 4 hunting fatalities, 3 of which were self inflicted. That means that statistically you would add 1 fatality for every additional 162,500 hunters that took to the field and there would be a 75% chance that the Idiot will shoot himself not you) 

C) Your concerned about giving up "secret spots" on State Land. (85% of deer hunting takes place on private land in Michigan and wait a minute, I thought you just said that you were not worried about sharing state land because it belongs to everyone?)

D) Oct. 1st will become like November 15th. (Do you really think that legalizing crossbows is going to result in 600,000+ hunters taking to the field on Oct. 1st. Come on, let's be real here.)

Still waiting for a compelling argument for why we should not expand crossbow season.


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## bradymsu (Mar 3, 2008)

I typed the wrong e-mail address for Joel earlier. The actual address is [email protected]. Sorry for the mistake.


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## unclecbass (Sep 29, 2005)

Allow with no restrictions, My dad has a permit and I have shot his crossbow at our targets, I will personally stick with my compound, but I dont see why others shouldnt be able to use their crossbow. Less wounded deer by people that are poor shots. And if somebody shoots my bird dog with any kind of weapon they are in for a serious beating before they make it out of the woods.


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## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

Why does anyone need or want to use a crossbow? I think people only want to use a crossbow to "get a deer" Why dont we just dig pits and use claymores? Fair chase - a bow must be drawn in front of the animal.
Now days we have muzzle rifles and 200 yrd shot guns. All we need is x-guns in the woods.
The only way I think x-bows should be allowed during bow season is if the shooter has to draw it in front of the game. Why are draw locks and lasers not allowed?


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## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

unclecbass said:


> . Less wounded deer by people that are poor shots. .



This is a good point. Some guys practice right before bow season and never fire another arrow till nov and then we all hear the story about the wounded/never recovered nice 10 point buck around the coffee pot the next day. If that same fellow use a xbow he would have gotten a better shot.

Now I'd rather someone hunt with a more accurate weapon if he's hunting. Yes they are accurate but don't we owe it to our game to make the best shot anyway. I'd rather put down an animal quickly rather to know it suffered cause I made a crappy shot ........my 2 m


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

Fred Bear said:


> Why does anyone need or want to use a crossbow? I think people only want to use a crossbow to "get a deer" Why dont we just dig pits and use claymores? Fair chase - a bow must be drawn in front of the animal.
> Now days we have muzzle rifles and 200 yrd shot guns. All we need is x-guns in the woods.
> The only way I think x-bows should be allowed during bow season is if the shooter has to draw it in front of the game. Why are draw locks and lasers not allowed?




Have to chuckle at your forum name and your picture of Fred Bear. I related in another thread about meeting Mr. Bear at my uncles house and Mr. Bear was prouder than a peacock about a new crossbow he had just made...............I remember him saying distinctly as if it was yesterday that crossbows shouldn't be feared by any sportsman and that they should be the wave of the future.......

I imagine he is rolling over in his grave after reading "some" of the posts in this thread........................


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

for myself i would rather see all restriction on the crossbow taken away. i will share the woods with any hunter.
my biggest point for allowing crossnows is for the youth. i do not know many youths that can pull decent weight at 10 to hunt with a bow.. and those kids that go out i fear shot a deer to never recover it. due to poor blood trail. give this same youth a crossbow and many more hunters would be in the woods and many more recovered. this one act would increase the doe harvest. and also increase future hunting numbers.
second we as a group have all agreed we need more doe harvest, but many bow hunters are against the early rifle season to allow this. i am in that boat. give the hunters the use of a crossbow the weapon is a silent killer unlike a gun. and this would get a few more bowhunters to agree to the early doe season (with a crossbow) as for myself i would like to see them allowed all bow season.
i have shot a crossbow and i can tell you they are not a magic bullet.
range is about 30 yards. my recurve 50yards
they are very heavy my bow is light
they are large compared to our bows
so with that i will say they have no advantage to us that like our bows. but for many this is a way to go and if it will increase our numbers than lets open the door and let these sportsman enjoy the sport. they pay taxes and deserve that right to be in the woods.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Fred Bear said:


> Why does anyone need or want to use a crossbow? I think people only want to use a crossbow to "get a deer" Why dont we just dig pits and use claymores? Fair chase - a bow must be drawn in front of the animal.
> Now days we have muzzle rifles and 200 yrd shot guns. All we need is x-guns in the woods.
> The only way I think x-bows should be allowed during bow season is if the shooter has to draw it in front of the game. Why are draw locks and lasers not allowed?


 A veritable litany of strawmen to knock down.

"Why does anyone need or want to use a crossbow?"
_Why does anyone need or want to use a compound or a longbow? The reason is the same for all three, personal preference._

"Why don't we dig pits or use claymores? " 
_Because digging pits, besides being a very ineffective method for taking deer, also presents an unreasonable danger to the public, who could potentially be injured. Claymores are not legal for private ownership and the potential danger is somewhat obvious to everyone except those who pose such obtuse strawman questions_.

"Fair Chase - "A bow must be drawn in front of an animal""
_How about behind the animal while their back is turned, is that unethical? _
_This may be your personal definition of fair chase but Pope & Young would not agree. Here is their definition. "Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal." They then include a detailed list of practices that would not be considered fair chase, including shooting from a car, shooting at game while in water, etc. Crossbows are not included on their list. Michigan already determined that a crossbow is a fair chase method when they legalized them for Nov. 15th - 30th. Sorry, the "fair chase" dog won't hunt. I'm sure that the millions of hunters who use crossbows in the many states that allow them would be surprised to find out that their hunting method is not fair chase. It would be equally surprising that dozens of State game agencies would promote the use of a weapon that is not fair chase, as well._

"Now we have muzzle rifles and 200 yard shotguns, all we need is x-guns in the woods."
_What does the fact that we have muzzleloaders and shotguns being used by hunters have to do with people using crossbows? Are you seriously comparing the range and power of a muzzleloader or shotgun to that of a crossbow? Please. The facts are that a crossbow has almost an identical potential for speed and penetration as most modern compound bows. Trying to compare them in any way shape or form to firearms simply highlights someones ignorance on ballistics and the terminal methodology of how an arrow kills game._

Keep em coming, we have yet to see any substantive arguments that stand up to scrutiny.

Here is a pic that I love, from the back cover of the 2006 Ohio deer harvest summary. Not a fair chase weapon, huh? :lol:


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## skyhawk1 (Jun 20, 2006)

wildcoy73 said:


> they pay taxes and deserve that right to be in the woods.


It isn't taxes that paid for state land, it was our license fees. the PRIVLEGE of hunting should belong to all I agree. but inviting people to be lazy is not the way to do it. I said it from the begining, youth and people over 60 are the only ones that should be allowed to use them during the regular archery season. as far as a crossbow only season, how many of you would give up a few weeks or a month of bowhunting so the crossbow guys can have thier hunt? btw munster...just because someone killed a deer with it, doesn't make it fair chase. next your going to tell me you would allow crossbow killed animals to be put in the pope & young book, A record book built upon traditional archery. It took years before they even allowed compound trophys to be listed.


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

skyhawk1 said:


> It isn't taxes that paid for state land, it was our license fees. the PRIVLEGE of hunting should belong to all I agree. but inviting people to be lazy is not the way to do it. I said it from the begining, youth and people over 60 are the only ones that should be allowed to use them during the regular archery season. as far as a crossbow only season, how many of you would give up a few weeks or a month of bowhunting so the crossbow guys can have thier hunt? btw munster...just because someone killed a deer with it, doesn't make it fair chase. next your going to tell me you would allow crossbow killed animals to be put in the pope & young book, A record book built upon traditional archery. It took years before they even allowed compound trophys to be listed.



Does this mean you would support going to ONLY allowing hunting with a long bow ? No hunting from trees or other elevated stands? ALL hunters in hunter orange for safety & fair chase. No blinds or bait? No firearm seasons for anything? 
Sure would keep you from being "lazy".


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

skyhawk1 said:


> It isn't taxes that paid for state land, it was our license fees. the PRIVLEGE of hunting should belong to all I agree. but inviting people to be lazy is not the way to do it. I said it from the begining, youth and people over 60 are the only ones that should be allowed to use them during the regular archery season. as far as a crossbow only season, how many of you would give up a few weeks or a month of bowhunting so the crossbow guys can have thier hunt? btw munster...just because someone killed a deer with it, doesn't make it fair chase. next your going to tell me you would allow crossbow killed animals to be put in the pope & young book, A record book built upon traditional archery. It took years before they even allowed compound trophys to be listed.


License fee's paid for the state land that we hunt on? Where did you dig up that little factoid? I'd check your source, if I was you.

So are compound users also "lazy" in your opinion? A guy shooting a 40lb compound with a 99% let-off is holding less than 1/2 a lb of pressure, how long do you think you could hold that bow at full draw? Probably more time than you could hold a 8 lb. crossbow to your shoulder while aiming it. A pretty judgmental accusation, implying that the millions of hunters who use crossbows in this country are all lazy, don't you think? Is the guy who uses a pop-up instead of building a blind out of branches lazy? How about the guy who uses a climbing stand instead of wedging himself into the crotch of a tree? Do illuminated nocks or sight pins on a compound make that hunter lazy Come on. They are all just examples of technology that hunters use and crossbows are no different.

As far as P&Y, I could care less what criteria they use for putting bucks in the book. I am not an antler fetishist so it really does not matter much to me. My guess is that the fact that they now let even high let-off compounds in the book (albeit with an asterisk) is indicative that they are adapting to the changing times and I would not be surprised if someday they allow crossbow kills in the book, too. Unless they are requiring hunters to use a yew & rawhide bow and stone arrowheads like Ishi, the whole thing becomes something of a charade anyway. But as I said, I really could care less because there is a lot more to hunting than worrying about whether you get to put a rack in some book.


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

i would like to see the archery season opened up to crossbows. The more ways to hunt = the more hunters = more money into the economy = lower deer population = healthier deer.


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## Melthuselah (Dec 3, 2007)

I thought this thread was for a person to express there opion of the proposed legislation. I see a lot of bashing of people who do not like the bill. 
I am 70 years old and have had four shoulder surgerys. I still hunt with a bow. I see no reason to put a age into this bill. I am in favor of streamlining the process to get a crossbow for the disabled but am not in favor of opening it to everyone. Age is not a reason to allow or disallow anyone the use of a crossbow. At the present time physical condition is in Michigan and I preferr it to stay that way. In an earlier post someone mention that Pope and Young does not allow crossbow kills but CBM and Boone and Crockett does. To clairifie that a little Pope and Young is the archery records book. CBM is the official record keeper of big game records for the state of Michigan. Yes crossbow kills are accepted because they are a legel weapon in michigan and have there own catigory in the record book. Boone and Crockett will accept any trophy taken with fair chase that meet there minimums. Hope this helps a little.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I dont think people are bashing the current propsal. It is more a case of not supporting the bill because it does not go far enough to provide the opportunity to everyone. Do you have a sound scientific/biological reason why we all should not be able to have that option.


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## Gwiki (Feb 24, 2006)

I would support lifting the disability/age restrictions period. Allow the use of crossbows during both archery and firearm seasons. In lieu of completely lifting restrictions, simplify the qualifications (ie a letter from their doctor...period). Thank-you for taking the time to listen and sort through the opinions posted here.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

swampbuck said:


> I dont think people are bashing the current propsal. It is more a case of not supporting the bill because it does not go far enough to provide the opportunity to everyone. Do you have a sound scientific/biological reason why we all should not be able to have that option.


NO THEY DON'T. thats why they lie and tell horror stories because they know they're are going to lose this one and have to share.
REMEMBER WHAT MOMMY AND DADDY TAUGHT YOU ALL A LONG TIME AGO
**************SHARE YOUR TOYS*******************:evilsmile


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## Moonkryket (Apr 1, 2008)

I would recommend any state that is considering changing its laws to allow crossbows to be used during archery season take a look at Virginia. Crossbows have been legal for archery season in Virginia for 3 years with no adverse consequences although in the beginning the so called professional and other groups were gnashing their teeth saying it would bring the end of bowhunting season as we knew it. I think it is safe to say hogwash to those claims. Hats off to Virginias law makers for recognizing that the hunting populations age continues to get older. Bowhunting license sales in Virginia had been stagnant for years because less youngsters are getting into the sport. Now older guys with arthritis, and other age related conditions that prevent them from drawing a hunting weight vertical bow, can continue bowhunting without having to get doctors statements saying they are permanently disabled and not able to draw a bow. As an example, Ive been an avid bowhunter for 43 years, with long bows, recurves and, at times, with compounds. I dont consider myself any less of a bowhunter now as a result of my hunting with a crossbow due to my arthritic condition. I doubt that many younger bowhunters will opt for crossbows simply because there is no advantage for them to do so and if some of them do, it certainly wont create any earth shattering changes to bowhunting. Crossbows are very heavy, loud and a crossbow hunter is virtually assured hell only get one shot at a deer so there are substantial disadvantages as compared to hunting with a vertical bow. The old argument that crossbows have triggers is a reason to not allow them in archery season. That mechanical device I used for years called a back tension TRIGGER for releasing arrows from my compound is a.trigger. My point is that compound vertical bows, with drop away rests, peep sights, bubble levels, stabilizers, battery operated sights, slings and shot with mechanical triggers, ARE accepted as legal archery equipment and are surely as far removed, or more so, from traditional and primitive archery than crossbows, so why all the animosity towards crossbows? Makes no sense to me.

As to the 70 year old age limit to hunt with crossbows, they must be joking!!! Many bowhunters at 60 years old I know already have arthritis and other limitations that either make it very difficult, if not impossible, to effectively continue bowhunting and shooting vertical bows. 

Crossbow hunting and shooting continues to grow across the country and rightfully so.


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

Gwiki said:


> I would support lifting the disability/age restrictions period. Allow the use of crossbows during both archery and firearm seasons. In lieu of completely lifting restrictions, simplify the qualifications (ie a letter from their doctor...period). Thank-you for taking the time to listen and sort through the opinions posted here.


I agree 100%.... Me neighbor had to spend close to $500 to get a crossbow permit. His Dr. said would sign off with no problems...But, the physical therapist said had to do a number of visits (4) to be able to fill out the form....


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## valerio024 (Nov 26, 2007)

I am in favor of a crossbow for use doing the entire archery season, it would be a great tool to get youngsters into the sport who can't pull a bow of adequate poundage as well as older folks.


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## skyhawk1 (Jun 20, 2006)

7MM Magnum said:


> Skyhawk,... I beg to differ,.. the amount of time you've spent shooting a bow DOES make a difference.
> 
> Basically with your attitude regarding the term archery. I'd be willing to bet you've got about what 5, maybe 8 years of shooting a bow under your belt ?
> 
> Let YOUR dad turn 65,.. and if his arms, elbow, shoulder joints, etc. become too far gone to hold that energy let's see you tell him,.."Sorry pops,.. your done hunting!" :16suspect


I have been shooting a bow since 1975. that's 33 years. I grew up in an archery shop. I HAVE shot tournament, I HAVE shot several species to include bear, wild boar (real ones, not on a ranch) rabbit, squirrels, woodchucks, and three different species of deer. I HAVE not only completed IBEP, I TAUGHT it! I HAVE been in JOAD, I HAVE been around the block, MY dad IS over 65, he DOES have Rhematoid Arthritis, his shoulders are toast, his hands are unrecognizable as hands he DOES still shoot a custom recurve, and an Onieda, and he does NOT have a crossbow permit. he does own a crossbow, and I HAVE spent time shooting it. I will say this again...I AM NOT AGAINST OLDER PEOPLE AGE 60 AND UP, HANDICAPPED OR YOUNGER ARCHERS NOT ABLE TO SHOOT ADEQUATE DRAW WEIGHT HUNTING WITH CROSSBOWS. I am against healthy individuals with no other reason than the fact that they can, hunting with crossbows. you don't know me, keep your assumptions to yourself!


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## Fur and Feathers (Apr 11, 2007)

My, My, 7mm Magnum, I think you done teed him off! This is what ticks me off about everyone arguing here. The only people we are hurting is ourselves. This is exactly what the antis want us to do. Keep this junk up and we won't have anything to argue over. I personally won't use a crossbow, until I need one, but if someone else wants to, that's fine with me. I hunt on state land and welcome other people to share it with me. I for one just love to be out, and wish more people would take up the sport. The woods don't belong to you or me, they belong to all of us. So just shut up and stop the bashing, I for one am all for letting crossbows into the Michigan woods. Bringem on!!!!!!


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## Slick fishing (Sep 25, 2002)

Whit1 said:


> The bill is a fine first step in the issue of crossbow use. I support it 100%.
> 
> In reality I strongly believe that crossbows should be legalized for the general bowhunting season.


 I agree 100% percent with this statement..Cya Slick


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Guys, let's keep the personal stuff, including juvenile "name calling", out of this thread. We have been asked for our input on a bill pending in the state legislature so let's keep to that. Let's take the rare opportunity that has been offered us by Rep. Sheltrown's aide Brady and voice our opinions, either way, with grace and dignity.

Enough said!


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

I support the use of crossbows as a legal choice in any season. I do not own one or plan to use one, at least not for many years. If it gets more people in the woods I support it.


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## PWood (Aug 6, 2004)

I support the bill as a good first step to relaxing the restrictions on crossbow use. I believe that crossbows should be allowed during any bow season for anyone who chooses to use one.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

bradymsu said:


> Under HB 5741, the disability threshold would be reduced from 80% to 60%, people with neuromuscular diseases would no longer have to be re-tested annually and most importantly, crossbows could be used by anyone 69 years or older during the October bow season. We have already been approached by legislators and hunters proposing amendments to move the automatic age to 65, 55 or to simply not to discriminate between crossbows and compound bows for anyone.
> .


I like the bill as it is stated. I think moving the minimum age to 65 makes sense. I know that my 78 year old father would use a crossbow. 
I would still be in favor of discriminating between crossbows and compound bows for the general public. The reason for my bias is a passion and dedication to archery. Because there is so much involved in becoming proficient with a bow and arrow, the personal rewards and satisfaction are that much greater. It is my love and commitment to preserving the art that prevents me from wanting to see crossbows become a viable shortcut. In essence I am not looking at what could be gained. I am looking at what will be lost.
Also, if you came up with a set of questions you could post a thread as a poll in these forums to see what majority opinion would be if forced to make a choice. If you created an on-line survey and posted a link to it here I think you would get great response as well. 
Good luck, and thanks for your efforts.
<----<<<


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Joe Archer said:


> I like the bill as it is stated. I think moving the minimum age to 65 makes sense. I know that my 78 year old father would use a crossbow.
> I would still be in favor of discriminating between crossbows and compound bows for the general public. The reason for my bias is a passion and dedication to archery. Because there is so much involved in becoming proficient with a bow and arrow, the personal rewards and satisfaction are that much greater. It is my love and commitment to preserving the art that prevents me from wanting to see crossbows become a viable shortcut. In essence I am not looking at what could be gained. I am looking at what will be lost.
> Also, if you came up with a set of questions you could post a thread as a poll in these forums to see what majority opinion would be if forced to make a choice. If you created an on-line survey and posted a link to it here I think you would get great response as well.
> Good luck, and thanks for your efforts.
> <----<<<


 
Thanks for your excellent post which, of course, is normal for you.

Your use of the word "passion" caught my eye right away. While I commend you for it I find it insufficient reason upon which to base fish and game management decisions.

The question has been asked many times in these forums about reasons, based on science and sound resource management, for the use of crossbows to be so stringently legislated and whenever changes are proposed certain groups, their members, and other like thinking archers protest with such vehamence. So far there has been no offerings. There was one very flawed "study" by a guy (I forget his name, but Munster will know it) who set out from the beginning to prove that crossbows were such an upgrade in firepower and efficiency in harvesting game that they never could be allowed during archery hunting seasons. Setting out trying to prove a point is no way to conduct a scientific study and holds no credence in scientific circles.

Thanks again for your calm, reasoned post.

For those of you who are interested in crossbows take a look at the following site. It is called Crossbow Nation and is based in Ohio.
For those of you interested in a site dedicated to crossbows take a look at the following. It is based in Ohio.

http://www.crossbownation.com/community/index.php


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## stillwaiting (Oct 19, 2005)

I think EVERYONE should be allowed to use a crossbow, not just for people with disabilities.


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

Whit1 said:


> Thanks for your excellent post which, of course, is normal for you.
> 
> Your use of the word "passion" caught my eye right away. While I commend you for it I find it insufficient reason upon which to base fish and game management decisions.
> 
> ...






That an excellent site you posted about Mr. Milt........wise ol sage you are.....:coolgleam


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## TOW (Apr 2, 2008)

The age limit of 69 is about 15 years too late to retain older bowhunters.

Gathered data pretty well points out that by the age of 55 an increasingly large percentage of bowhunters are dropping out.

If the goal of this bill is to retain older bowhunter/hunters then the age limit should be 55. Address the problem, not just go by emotions or what will fly with vocal minorities

Being an older person (69 this June) I understand about the aches and pains of the aging process. While some seniors are as fit as a fiddle, others are on the opposite end of the spectrum - and everywhere in between.

For some it is the old song - "Some days are diamonds and some days are stones&#8221;. There are some days that an older person could actually shoot 50 or so arrows in the back yard. The next day he might not be able to pull the bow back once. I'm sure that some older folks on here know exactly what I am saying.

No doubt the 80% permanent physical disability is keeping a lot of Michigan bowhunters out of the deer woods. The cost of acquiring a "handicapped permit" has already been addressed by some on here. That is real money out of the pocket to prove an 80% disability in order to bowhunt. Shame on the Physical Therapist that had to have 4 sessions to determine if someone could pull a hunting weight bow back or not. The problems with un-necessary government mandates, such as this, is that some will take advantage of it to drain a little more money out of their patient's billfold. No need for him to be involved in this at all. A Doctor filling out the proper form should be enough.

On addition to the time and money that a person has to spend in order to get a "handicapped permit" there is also quite a stigma placed on the individual about being "handicapped". Rather than accept that erroneous stigma some bowhunters just hang it up. My wife is physically challenged in walking (MS) and it took a LONG time for her to start using a cane and a longer time to get a handicapped license plate for her car. Pride? No doubt, but that stigma exists. Allow crossbows for everyone and that stigma disappears.

We are losing hunters all across this great land of ours and we should be doing everything in our power to streamline hunters entry into hunting and retention of existing hunters. 

I personally believe for crossbows that there should be no age limit and no handicapped permits. I believe that every hunter should be able to make a choice on which piece of archery hunting gear that they want to use. Be it longbow, recurve, compound or crossbow.

Joe Archer,

I too share your love of archery hunting. This fall will be my 41st season. I've hunted and killed all kinds of animals with longbows, recurves, compounds and now crossbows. I have found that when I switched from one piece of archery hunting gear to another my actual hunt was not diminished at all. I am still basically hunting the same way I did when I first started out. The deer are no dumber just because I have a high tech compound or a crossbow in my hands that they were when I had my longbow.

My "personal rewards and satisfaction" are still the same. The mastering of the particular piece of archery equipment has very little, if anything, to do with the actual hunt.

Could you tell me if you would lose any "personal rewards and satisfaction" in your hunt if the hunter over on the next 40 was using a crossbow instead of a high tech, high let off compound? Harvest stats from states that allow both compounds and crossbows indicate that the harvest percentage is basically identical.

The absolute beauty of bowhunting is that we can all set our own standards as to "personal rewards and satisfaction". That can range from shooting the most up to date modern equipment and shooting anything that comes down the deer run to self made bows and hunting only P & Y bucks. We bowhunt to please no one but ourselves. That is quite a range of what we can set for OURSELVES. But, why try and set OUR standards for others?

The crossbow is just another choice in archery hunting gear. One that a person can use or not use, just like a choice of compound versus a recurve. Your choice, but why limit the choice of others who's hunting that will not affect you one bit?

Good discussion.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Allow them---heavily restricted. Are thet a need or a convience(sp), every Oct. I wonder if there would be as many bow huters if it hadn,t been for the "WHITETAIL HUNTER", or would there be as many muzzle loader hunter's without the in-line. As for the number of hunters, well a hunter will hunt, with or without conviences(sp)


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

TOW said:


> Could you tell me if you would lose any "personal rewards and satisfaction" in your hunt if the hunter over on the next 40 was using a crossbow instead of a high tech, high let off compound? Harvest stats from states that allow both compounds and crossbows indicate that the harvest percentage is basically identical..


The personal rewards and satisfaction concerning archery that I was referring to were not limited to hunting situations. Although it is true that I took up archery so that I could hunt deer, my dedication and desire to preserve this form of shooting go far beyond any ramifications of taking wild game. I know that traditional archers made the same arguments concerning the introduction of compounds. Having experienced the mystical connection of mind and body while instinctively shooting a recurve, I at least understand their reservations. To think that future generations will take the easy way out and pick up a crossbow in place of a recurve or compound saddens me. As stated by Whit, my opinion is not governed by science. It does not incorporate the effect of game management into its limitations. My opinion is only formed by something that has touched my soul and given me so much pleasure that I want to see it passed on to generations until the end of time. 
In this age of technology we could easily forgo sexual intercourse as a means of procreation. One could argue that we could increase conception efficiency, due away with unwanted pregnancy, and eliminate disease. For population control, and disease management science supports doing away with intercourse altogether. Others would argue that the physical connection between a man and a woman go much further than procreation. They would argue the importance of passion; the emotional, spiritual and psychological connection between man and women. 
Yes Whit, passion is the foundation for my objection to permitting crossbows for the general population. But who is to say that passion should not have its place in the hunting society? In fact, wouldn't most hunters say that passion is indeed our common bond?
<----<<<


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Whit1 said:


> There was one very flawed "study" by a guy (I forget his name, but Munster will know it) who set out from the beginning to prove that crossbows were such an upgrade in firepower and efficiency in harvesting game that they never could be allowed during archery hunting seasons. Setting out trying to prove a point is no way to conduct a scientific study and holds no credence in scientific circles.


Ah yes, the "proof" that has circulated on so many anti-crossbow newsgroups as evidence of the "unfair" nature of the crossbow. It was originally hailed as an example of just your "average" hunter, who did not have any feelings for or against crossbows but who decided to get the "facts" by trying one himself. After the conclusion of his "test" he railed against the fact that when shooting from sandbags he was able to put 4 bolts in a 5" spread at 100 yards. This was evidence he claimed that the crossbow was "too" accurate and gave crossbowmen an "unfair" advantage.

He mentioned in passing that while he was shooting field points, he was reasonably sure that he could duplicate this feat with broaheads. The field points penetrated 8" into hay targets.

His conclusion was that the devastating accuracy of the crossbow was inherently "unfair" and would wreak havoc on archery seasons.

After a little bit of research was done on the Author of this "Test" it was determined that he was not just your average unbiased hunter. His name is Mike Brust and he is a former President of the Wisconsin Bow hunters and is Midwest Chairman of the North American Bowhunting coaliton and has made presentations at the National Bowhunting Summit discussing on how to keep crossbows out of archery season. Hmmmm..... No hidden agenda there, huh? :lol:

At the end of the day his propaganda really does nothing to discredit crossbows. Can a weapon be too accurate? What a silly idea! When shooting at a living creature I'd say that we should be using as accurate a weapon as possible. Does being able to hit a target at 100 yards with field points mean that the majority of hunters will be taking shots with broadheads at game at those ranges? Again, this is just plain silly. Lot's of guys can hit targets at long ranges with compounds, that does not mean that the vast majority of hunters are going to be taking 70-80 yard shots at deer. As to his conclusion that it is "obvious" the impact that using crossbows would have on archery seasons, I'd agree with him that the conclusion is obvious. The answer is virtually none. We know this based on hard data from Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, Georgia and many other states that allow crossbows. I'll take the results of hard data over the musings of someone with a pre-determined agenda, any day.


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## Rudi's Dad (May 4, 2004)

tmb said:


> If it doesnt need to drawn and held in the presence of the game hunted its not a bow and therefore does not belong in archery season unless disabled, regardless of age.


 
This makes sense to me, _*unless*_ you eventually want to just change deer season (private land) from Oct 1 till Jan 1. Shoot your limit with whatever, guns bows or who cares.
Public land should have more stringent rules because of possible conflict with upland hunters with dogs and a larger number of hunters competing for quality time in the woods.
The beef I hear about bow season is the rifle hunters (public land) are *claiming* the buck population is shot out by the bow hunters. Maybe bow hunters should be required to shoot antlerless only on public land..


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## cadillacjethro (Mar 21, 2007)

Joe Archer said:


> The personal rewards and satisfaction concerning archery that I was referring to were not limited to hunting situations. Although it is true that I took up archery so that I could hunt deer, my dedication and desire to preserve this form of shooting go far beyond any ramifications of taking wild game. I know that traditional archers made the same arguments concerning the introduction of compounds. Having experienced the mystical connection of mind and body while instinctively shooting a recurve, I at least understand their reservations. To think that future generations will take the easy way out and pick up a crossbow in place of a recurve or compound saddens me. As stated by Whit, my opinion is not governed by science. It does not incorporate the effect of game management into its limitations. My opinion is only formed by something that has touched my soul and given me so much pleasure that I want to see it passed on to generations until the end of time.
> In this age of technology we could easily forgo sexual intercourse as a means of procreation. One could argue that we could increase conception efficiency, due away with unwanted pregnancy, and eliminate disease. For population control, and disease management science supports doing away with intercourse altogether. Others would argue that the physical connection between a man and a woman go much further than procreation. They would argue the importance of passion; the emotional, spiritual and psychological connection between man and women.
> Yes Whit, passion is the foundation for my objection to permitting crossbows for the general population. But who is to say that passion should not have its place in the hunting society? In fact, wouldn't most hunters say that passion is indeed our common bond?
> <----<<<


An excellent post Joe and I feel much the same way. However , I believe it's up to me to pass along my passion and the reasons for it. Allowing crossbows does not restrict me from using a long bow, recurve, or compound. It does open up another avenue for someone else to develop a passion for hunting whitetails.


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

I think it's a personal choice of what you want to use (if allowed by law). An older person or even someone with a shoulder injury one year should have the option if they so choose. Also, I don't think my wife, who doesn't hunt, could pull back a bow that has enough weight behind it to take a deer. Should she be excluded just because of her small stature? I don't think so. Me, I'll just keep using a compound bow until I get too old or worn out. Then what do I do? All that being said I do think I would look at a perfectly fit person kind of funny that uses a crossbow, but it could be their choice.

I'm for the bill or very minimal restrictions or heck none all.


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## beervo2 (May 7, 2006)

PLEASE, if you are for this bill email Brady or MR.Sheltrown with your opinions, just don't leave them here, strength comes in ###.You know the other group will be giving their opinions, so far Brady only has 7 emails..:help:


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## TOW (Apr 2, 2008)

Joe Archer said:


> The personal rewards and satisfaction concerning archery that I was referring to were not limited to hunting situations. Although it is true that I took up archery so that I could hunt deer, my dedication and desire to preserve this form of shooting go far beyond any ramifications of taking wild game. I know that traditional archers made the same arguments concerning the introduction of compounds. Having experienced the mystical connection of mind and body while instinctively shooting a recurve, I at least understand their reservations. To think that future generations will take the easy way out and pick up a crossbow in place of a recurve or compound saddens me. As stated by Whit, my opinion is not governed by science. It does not incorporate the effect of game management into its limitations. My opinion is only formed by something that has touched my soul and given me so much pleasure that I want to see it passed on to generations until the end of time.
> 
> *SNIP OF NON-RELEVENT "INTERCOURSE"..*
> 
> <----<<<


I understand, but can not one do their own thing and also pass that along to whoever is receptive of that means of shooting archery and/or hunting?

I've seen a good number of bowhunters start out with a crossbow and then take up a compound or a longbow. Why should one be restricted to a choice of only longbows, recurves and compounds?

There are a good number of members on here that wouldn't dream of shooting/hunting with a compound, much less as crossbow *AND THAT IS OK*. This is not, or should not be, a "if you don't do it my way, then you are doing it wrong".

Just like not everyone wants to (or even can) shoot/hunt with a longbow or a recurve, not everyone wants to shoot/hunt with a compound. Please do not sell us crossbowers short in that we do not enjoy shooting/hunting with a crossbow just like a trad likes his longbow/recurve and a compounder loves his high tech, high let off compound. It is just different archery equipment



> To think that future generations will take the easy way out and pick up a crossbow in place of a recurve or compound saddens me.


Why? I'm for "future generations" to hunt with whatever archery equipment they want *as long as they are hunting*. Any restricton that we can come up with will cull out more and more hunters. Numbers that we can ill afford to lose.That is what restrictions do. Where do you believe archery hunting would be today if millions of bowhunters didn't "take the easy way out" and start shooting and hunting with a compound?

You do agree that shooting/hunting with a longbow/recurve is more difficult than shooting/hunting with a compound, right?

BTW - You are right, there is something "mystical" about the flight of an arrow, no matter what piece of archery equipment launched it.


.


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## 7MM Magnum (Sep 10, 2003)

Fur and Feathers said:


> My, My, 7mm Magnum, I think you done teed him off! This is what ticks me off about everyone arguing here. The only people we are hurting is ourselves. This is exactly what the antis want us to do. Keep this junk up and we won't have anything to argue over. I personally won't use a crossbow, until I need one, but if someone else wants to, that's fine with me. I hunt on state land and welcome other people to share it with me. I for one just love to be out, and wish more people would take up the sport. The woods don't belong to you or me, they belong to all of us. So just shut up and stop the bashing, I for one am all for letting crossbows into the Michigan woods. Bringem on!!!!!!


I musta' really missed some of his "input" as the reply was edited by Whit1,...

I'm not here to try and get into a pissing match with anyone,... just trying to state MY view on the issue of the allowance of crossbows in the field. I've been trying to explain them in as basic a format as possible. I'm all for them in either, or BOTH hunting seasons. There have been MANY valid points brought up for the positive effects of this change,.. and I just can't understand how some here who are suppose to be sportsmen and women (didn't want to leave the girls out just in case I missed something else) can't honestly see all the good things that can be created with it. 

Allow older hunters to continue in the field hunting.
Allow women and children that don't sufficient body strength to hunt.
Bring more revenue to the DNR by selling more licenses and in turn benefit ALL sports persons.
Help with the regulating of the deer herd numbers by providing a healthier herd.

(just to name a few)

As I stated earlier,.. I have been shooting a bow for a LONG time,.. I first picked one up in the late 50's,... a long bow. I graduated with the times also when the recurves went on the market and shot instinctively with a 3 finger glove right on up until the time I got my compound (1996). 

I went from Cedar feather fletched shafts to aluminum and fiberglass,.. and now,... Blazer's and carbon Gold-tips. I took my first competition trophy shooting silhouette in 1963 using a Bear Magnum recurve with a 48# pull,.. shooting instinctive, and kept on going from there. I've graduated with the times as much as the equipment has. I decided on the compound due basically to the let-off factor as I was finding it more and more difficult to hold a 65# draw recurve (Bear Super Magnum) at full draw for a sustained length of time while hunting. (had one give me a stare down match for a heck of a long time at full draw)

As age is having it's way with me much to my hatred of it,.. I have found out that I "don't bounce" like I used to. :lol: Old injuries that I just shrugged off when I was younger are now deciding to get even with me. Some days the ol' joints feel like rusty hinges and I can sometimes get away with pre-medicating in anticipation of things that I'm going to feel before hand, but I know that one of these days sometime in the future it's not going to work anymore. 

I'm not going to just give up my love of hunting to appease a minority of people who basically just don't like the word "crossbow" out in the woods with them. That day hopefully is in my far far future when I'll need to,... but the option should be there for me if and when the need arises.

I also have no ill-regard for *anyone* to use one,.. regardless of their health or stature,.. it's just another *TOOL* to be utilized in the pursuit of the hunt as far as I'm concerned. 

To me,.. it's kinda' like saying you can only use a 30-30 during firearms season,... So sell that 30-06, that .308, that 7 mag, and your .243,.. we don't think that they should be used for hunting because of the power they have, and flat shooting aspects of them,.. it's unfair to the rest of us. 

It's the same mentality in my book!


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Joe Archer said:


> Yes Whit, passion is the foundation for my objection to permitting crossbows for the general population. But who is to say that passion should not have its place in the hunting society? In fact, wouldn't most hunters say that passion is indeed our common bond?
> <----<<<


Having passion for the activities that we love is a great thing. My only point is that we shouldn't be basing management regulations....and hunting is a management issue.....on emotions......i.e. passions.....is not sound scientific management.


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## weatherby (Mar 26, 2001)

bradymsu said:


> to simply not to discriminate between crossbows and compound bows for anyone.


 This one gets my vote. I would actually go and get $$ out of the bank for me and my daughter. She just can't seem to pull enough poundage back no matter how much she tries.


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## michigandeerslayer (Oct 24, 2004)

I say its a weapon to each is there own, its like me telling the rifle guys they cant use any thing over a 30-06

If we hunters are going to argue over weapons of choice what is next???


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## bigmike (Oct 21, 2004)

I support the use of them


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## Bwilson (Feb 22, 2008)

I am a new member to this site. I found this site and have enjoyed it due to the good people and suggestions and sharing experiances with one another. As a sportsman i would only think that we all would want to help a fellow sportsman out wether its fishing hunting or even hiking. Using a cross bow is Just another weapon that allows a sportman to be able to enjoy thier experiance in the woods. 

Even a 12 year old can sometimes have a very difficult time drawing a bow back and holding it. Resulting in possily a poor hit and not a humane kill. As a sportsman i would think that we all would like to see a humane kill. There are many diffrent reasons why someone would want to use a crossbow in the woods. 
I know two people that are ex-competative swimmers who have had shoulder surgerys and cant draw a bow comfortably to make humane kill. Niether of them are considered Handicapped to get the right to use a crossbow. 
Hunting is Hunting wether you use a crossbow,bow,gun,spear,tommahawk or even a atalatal. As long as you are confident with a humane kill with your weapon.

I support hunting


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

I started out using a compound when i first started hunting, an older bow with little let off, and now I shoot one with 80 percent... Does it make it easier to shoot, heck yea but do I still have to practice and shoot my bow to make myself consistant. I even have bow fished with a old recurve which has from time to time gotten me curious to try it while deer hunting..

I think a move to open it to all will make more people interested.. which is something we need. Sure some will always stay with a crossbow, but then again some people only gun hunt so what should we think of them. IMO people will want to try different things. 

Its the PASSION of hunting that makes people want to challenge themselves and try different things. Whether it be different game, or trying to get kills on film or other various weapons. The imortant thing is our heritage is being passed on, and no matter what it takes this should be the important part, If you do not want to try it, then fine you do not have to, but what exactly would one be loosing by letting others try it. But I think we are loosing when we put uneccessary restrictions on the weapon of choice,


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

You can open up a whole new lobbying group Pro-Hunting. You can get the crossbow manufacturers behind you when fighting the anti-hunters. 

You get more marketing dollars spent in MI. 

You get variety. Just like people buy new trucks because they want to try something different this time. It adds to the experience of hunting. Gets the excitment level back up. 

I personally don't have a horse in this race, but like to see new oppurtunities to enhance an already great sport. I used to deer hunt, both bow and gun, but have since shifted to waterfowl. 

One drawback to opening up the laws on these if they attract new people; more people in the crowded woods of public ground. I know the last time my grandfather and I hunted near Houghton Lake opening day of gun season there was far more orange in the woods than deer. I actually decided to walk out early because about 5 or 6 folks set up on the same valley I was. Talk about a cross fire... I whistled loudly on my way out too. 

So I guess to go along with the lobbying of allowing crossbows for all to use, we might try to get landowners to be more gracious aloowing hunters on their land. I know a lot who allow it, but I also know a lot who don't.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Whit1 said:


> Having passion for the activities that we love is a great thing. My only point is that we shouldn't be basing management regulations....and hunting is a management issue.....on emotions......i.e. passions.....is not sound scientific management.


I think a valid question than becomes; why not let everyone hunt with their weapon of choice from October through December? Can we assume that limiting the current firearms seasons to a two week period is in place primarily to control harvest numbers? Can we assume that a 3 month weapon-of-choice season would result in over harvest in many areas? Or, should we just say that the two-week firearms season has no scientific management rationale, and it is based more on tradition and emotion than it is on management goals? 
If we believe that the two-week firearms season is adequate to accomplish harvest rates in most areas, than we have to at least consider the effect of adding three months of cross-bow hunting. 
In a poll on these forums that 77 people took the time to answer better than 50% of current gun hunters that do not bow hunt would hunt with a crossbow if given the chance. If Michigan had 750,000 deer hunters last year, this poll would suggest 156,000 additional hunters in the field during the October - December bow seasons if crossbows are made legal. This would be an approximate 50% increase of hunters in the archery season. If anything, this may be a gross under estimation. Here is a link to the poll. http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212009
If we are going to base deer management on scientific data, than we really need to move slowly, gather data, and make sound decisions. If we make them legal for all now; will this impact the length of archery season in the future? How will it impact the harvest rates on public land? How will it affect harvest rates on private land? What do we want to accomplish? What are our management goals? 
In any case, I like the bill as proposed making it easier for handicapped hunters to gain a permit and allowing senior citizens the chance to use a crossbow. Why not survey the hunting public in Michigan to see exactly how many new hunters would be in the woods during archery season if allowed, and make our decisions based on their estimated impact? 
I would hope to preserve the length of the current archery season. Once we analyze the data we might find it better to have a stand alone crossbow season. We might combine crossbows with muzzle-loader season. Who knows, we might even combine compound with crossbows, limit this season to November and designate October for traditional archery (recurve and longbow) hunters. The point is, we have many more options available than to just make crossbows legal for three months. We should really compile some data, look at the evidence, estimate the impact to all locations of our state, and make sound and fair decisions that will benefit hunters and management. 
<----<<<


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## awshucks (Feb 7, 2006)

"If we make them legal for all now; will this impact the length of archery season in the future? How will it impact the harvest rates on public land? How will it affect harvest rates on private land? What do we want to accomplish? What are our management goals?"

In none of the states that currently allow them has an archery season length or bag limit ever been reduced due to their use. Until about2002 they were only legal in 3 states, since then the list has grown to 13 or 14 for all or parts of archery seasons, including a few for senior hunters. Since the harvest success stats are nearly identical for both the xbow and the compound in the states that even bother to keep track, there is really no logical reason to exclude them.


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## huntingfool43 (Mar 16, 2002)

I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to keep people from hunting. The bill as written will help but why not just make them legal for everyone.We are not talking extra bag limits etc and you are only allowed to buy so many tags. Once you fill them you are done, dead is dead. As far as an any weapon choice NO, with a crossbow you still need to get the animal in close just like a bow where as a firearm it would be a slaughter if it went on for 3 months. Anything that will increase the numer of hunters the better as long as it don't have a negative impact on the wildlife.


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't ever heard one solid reason they shouldn't be allowed. The limit remains the same. I don't care what weapon you chose to hunt with. 

I will get mine and I don't care how you get yours.


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

I feel the choice should be left up to the people to use whatever they have they have the most confidence in, and are most accurate with. If you can aim and harvest most every deer you shoot at with a long bow fine. If to get to that point you step up to a compound with sights so be it. Now if a release aid is need OK step up to the plate. AS long as a person can go out and have a good time and feel good about what they are doing. If somebody needs a crossbow to get to point of consistant kills then they should have the choice to step up to this.

We as hunters OWE it to the animal we hunt for quick humane kills. God knows we fell bad when we don't. If a person likes to hunt and is forced to use (and yes forced is the word) what is an inferior weapon to them, they will still hunt and NOT have the confidence in the shot. They will still hunt and limit shots but will still loose deer. Is this the goal? Should the animal being hunted be forced to bear the brunt of this.

Myself as example. I can shoot a recurve/longbow at targets just fine. I had no problem hitting the deer. Problem I had was putting them down. I ended up with a compound and sights. Still shooting fingers and the problem is gone. I shot well enough this way to shoot for Browning Archery for many years. I quit shooting for them when my son was born. I always said I competition shot to help my hunting and I had the time. My heart was in the hunting not the competition shoots. My time is now spent with my familly and I still shoot a compound with fingers. I still get my deer.

Now my dad and number one hunting partner (my son will soon be old enough to hunt) is 80 years old. He is not disabled and loves to hunt. Most days he can get a couple of shots off with his compound at targets. The last couple years he has not fired his bow at a deer. He did try more then a few times to shoot a deer but was not able to pull the bow back ONCE the deer were there. Last year I know he didn't go out a few times because he felt bad about this. He's old and weaker then he has ever been and still likes to hunt. He like bowhunting for deer best over all other hunting. Now it kinda turn into deer watching and enjoying my success.

For all you people against using Crossbows Thank you very much for at least not stopping my dad from watching deer or is that next????? Are you really worried that an 80 year old man will put that big of a dent in YOUR deer heard????? Also let me thank you for not allowing me the glory in my dad harvesting perhap what would be his last bow deer because you don't like crossbows.


By the way here is my dad at 79 years old with his Michigan Cow Elk. I was his guide and we walked her up in the snow. My dad was the oldest elk hunter that year and tagged the oldest elk taken, Oddly it was also the 79 elk registered in two December ago. 








Note I would have placed a recent deer bow kill here but looking back we do not have any. Mostly his choice because when he did get the bow back he didn't have confidence in his shooting. If we lowered the poundage any more he would have to use rubber suction tipped arrows!

Hopefully he will still be hunting when his grandson is old enough to hunt.

Skinner


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## Northern-Lights (Apr 3, 2004)

Opinions are like armpits...everyone has one....or more. But, since opinions are wanted...I'll chime in. Personally, I think anyone over age 55 should be allowed to use whatever weapon they choose....as long as proficiency is proven. (Proficiancy is something I believe everyone should have to prove...no matter what weapon is used...) 

On private land...the person should be able to use whatever weapon they desire...no matter the age.

On public land....crossbows should be allowed to be used by anyone during the primative weapons season, or during the gun season. 

Archery hunting should be what we currently have.....with the exception of crossbows for anyone age 55 or older or handicapped (as defined by the proposed new rules).


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## TOW (Apr 2, 2008)

Your dad is a trooper! We can all hope and pray to still be out there in the deer woods when we are 80 years old.

Yes, we need to make accomodations for folks such as your dad. He and others like him paved the way for us today.

Any age law should be set at a point where the numbers of bowhunters start dropping off and that is 55. Of course I say let *EVERYONE* have their choice in archery hunting gear and we would not have to worrry about when a person gets too old to pull a bow back anymore.

Legal archery equipment for everyone.....


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I see no reason that anyone should not be able to use a crossbow during archery season. The only reason for not wanting it are selfish ones. Michigan has limited tags for deer so what difference does it make if the tag is used in October, November or December.


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

You have asked for opinions on the proposed legistaltion to expand the medical criteria that will allow a person with a disability to take game with a crossbow. Below is my correspondence that I recently mailed to the Natural Resources Commission (and others) which, as you know, is also reviewing these matters. 

March 25, 2008

Commissioner Keith J. Charters 
Chairperson
Natural Resources Commission
Department of Natural Resources
State of Michigan
P.O. Box 3002
Lansing, MI 48909

RE: Crossbow Hunting Eligibility for Persons with a Disability 

Mr. Chairperson and Commissioners:

The State of Michigan has established that a crossbow is a reasonable accommodation that will allow a person with a disability to hunt game during the established hunting seasons. Currently, the NRC is considering expanding the criteria that defines a disability and/or its degree of severity in order to obtain a permit to hunt with a crossbow. I applaud this noble effort however; it is my contention that the very manner and methodology surrounding your efforts to establish new and/or expanded criteria to be, in and of itself, fundamentally flawed and, I respectfully suggest that this entire line of thinking should be abandoned. 

It&#8217; s a fact that the way that the Michigan system is set up, regardless of any broadening of the definitions, will still result in people with certain disabilities from being ineligible for a crossbow permit. This fact denies them a fundamental right that is granted them under the provisions of the American with Disabilities Act (ADA). The only reasonable way to avoid having individuals fall through the cracks, and thus avoiding a violation of the ADA, is to do away with specific criteria and leave the determination up to a physician, a method that is currently used by many of the states that make provisions for the use of a crossbow by disabled hunters. Anything short of this is going to set the stage for a judicial determination of the legality of excluding those with certain disabilities from the right to use a crossbow.

Furthermore, by doing away with specific criteria your policy should then state that, for a person with a disability to obtain a permit to take game with a crossbow, the individual merely be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own personal physician stating that in his/her professional opinion, the applicant has either a permanent and/or temporary condition that render him/her unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow. 

Again, this places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the NRC. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, are kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain. 

Thank you for allowing me this opportunity to share my thoughts and recommendations with you.

Respectfully yours,


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

while researching crossbows in michigan I found a few things of interest ,other than the opposition that the m.b.h. expresses at every meeting.

an article by Sharpe posted here in 2001..

"Friends in the Department of Natural Resources tell me the agency's leaders believe crossbow use should be liberalized to increase their ability to control the deer herd, expand hunting opportunities, and sell more licenses at a time when sales are dropping off"
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-4189.html

a meeting of the DNR Accessability Advisory Council june 2007 They considered the idea but decided not to act at this time. Didnt reject it though.

"--Last month, the NRC considered amending current crossbow regulations to allow all
able bodied individuals to use crossbows without special permits during the archery​season. The commission decided against expanding the regulation at this time."

and also this.

"--Statute still defines part of the requirement to be "permanently disabled." The NRC has​no authority to change this requirement; this would take legislative action"

of course the M.B.H. was right on trying to block that possibility. NRC meeting 2007

*"Bruce Levey, Michigan Bow Hunters Association*, recommended holding implementation of revised crossbow regulations while the DNR works with the Michigan Bow Hunters Association on this issue. The Association is interested in transferring the authority on modified bows from the Legislature to the DNR. He would like the ad hoc committee on crossbows to reconvene for further discussion on the crossbow regulations"


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## olliek (Nov 11, 2003)

I too have a passion. I would love to sit on a stump in the October sunshine and enjoy the warm autumn afternoon with a weapon that I could use to fill a tag.
I`m 67 and have beat cancer (at least for now) but cannot draw or hold a bow.
Therefore I`m left to setting a few traps and watching the deer roam on my 85 acres.
I`m not trying to interfere with someone elses passion, I just would like to join the fun before the mid November cold and wind forces me inside my heated blind with a rifle accross my lap.
Hopefully, the State of Michigan will realize that the crossbow is just another tool that hunters can utilize to pursue thier passion. Dave.


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

"*I too have a passion. I would love to sit on a stump in the October sunshine and enjoy the warm autumn afternoon with a weapon that I could use to fill a tag.I`m 67 and have beat cancer (at least for now) but cannot draw or hold a bow. Therefore I`m left to setting a few traps and watching the deer roam on my 85 acres. I`m not trying to interfere with someone elses passion, I just would like to join the fun before the mid November cold and wind forces me inside my heated blind with a rifle accross my lap.

Hopefully, the State of Michigan will realize that the crossbow is just another tool that hunters can utilize to pursue thier passion. Dave. I too have a passion. I would love to sit on a stump in the October sunshine and enjoy the warm autumn afternoon with a weapon that I could use to fill a tag. I`m 67 and have beat cancer (at least for now) but cannot draw or hold a bow. Therefore I`m left to setting a few traps and watching the deer roam on my 85 acres.

I`m not trying to interfere with someone elses passion, I just would like to join the fun before the mid November cold and wind forces me inside my heated blind with a rifle accross my lap. Hopefully, the State of Michigan will realize that the crossbow is just another tool that hunters can utilize to pursue thier passion." 

Dave*____________________________________



Olliek; (Dave) the State of Michigan has already acknowledged that a crossbow is a reasonable accommodation (to use your words: "tool") to provide a person with a disability the opportunity to become an equal participant in any of our current hunting seasons. It's already on the books, it's part of the law. It's a done deal...Crossbows are "LEGAL"! That is no longer a point of contention. 

The problem (point of contention) is that, the current DNR criteria (as well as the new proposed criteria) that defines which specific disability, and the degree of severity of that specific disability, determines who can/and who can not, obtain a permit to hunt game with a crossbow during the archery season, is set up so only the most severely disabled persons will be able to obtain a permit. There will still be persons with a disability, perhaps like yourself, who do not meet the specific definition of the disability and/or its degree of severity, yet still are unable to pull and/or hold a long-, and/or compound bow. That, is the flaw of the system that you and I must change!

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) states that is illegal to discriminate against any person with a disability. It does not state specific disability and/or degree of severity of the specific disability. Rather, it merely states "disability" --as in, any/all disabilities. Since your disability render you unable to pull and or hold a long-. and/or compound bow, you are entitled to petition the government so that you are able to utilized the _reasonable accommodation_ (aka "crossbow") that will provide you with the opportunity to become a _equal participant_ during any/all of Michigan's established hunting seasons. 

Here's the solution...

By doing away with specific criteria the DNR policy should then state that, for a person with a disability to obtain a permit to take game with a crossbow, the individual merely be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own personal physician stating that in his/her professional opinion, the applicant has either a permanent and/or temporary condition that render him/her unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow. This places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the NRC/DNR. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, are kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain. 

Good luck to you.

Riva


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## TOW (Apr 2, 2008)

Riva said:


> "The problem (point of contention) is that, the current DNR criteria (as well as the new proposed criteria) that defines which specific disability, and the degree of severity of that specific disability, determines who can/and who can not, obtain a permit to hunt game with a crossbow during the archery season, is set up so only the most severely disabled persons will be able to obtain a permit. There will still be persons with a disability, perhaps like yourself, who do not meet the specific definition of the disability and/or its degree of severity, yet still are unable to pull and/or hold a long-, and/or compound bow. That, is the flaw of the system that you and I must change!
> 
> The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) states that is illegal to discriminate against any person with a disability. It does not state specific disability and/or degree of severity of the specific disability. Rather, it merely states "disability" --as in, any/all disabilities. Since your disability render you unable to pull and or hold a long-. and/or compound bow, you are entitled to petition the government so that you are able to utilized the _reasonable accommodation_ (aka "crossbow") that will provide you with the opportunity to become a _equal participant_ during any/all of Michigan's established hunting seasons.
> 
> ...


Kentucky has it as you have stated it. Just have the doctor fill out the form (permanent or temporary-dated) and carry it with you at all times while crossbow hunting. No need to send it in to have a committee go over it with a thumbs up or down whether you can hunt or not.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

That would be easier than getting the legalisation passed. I have a couple friends that are doctors. A lot of people probably do.


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## 7MM Magnum (Sep 10, 2003)

Riva,...the law regarding the crossbow as currently written should just be simplified,.. remove ALL the regulation regarding the crossbow. 

There shouldn't be any difference between it's use for the purpose of hunting then there is for any of the others allowed. It's about time our state *"grew up"* and allowed large game statewide to be *ANY WEAPON* hunting. The point of only being allowed specific weapon usage is unreasonable in my personal opinion. Why should the crossbow be singled out,.. except for the pacification of certain special interest groups ??

A person who wants to hunt shouldn't have to jump through all of these hoops of medical percentages just to prove to someone that they are "injured enough" to use a specific weapon. For that matter why should anyone have to be injured or disabled to utilize one ? :16suspect

Everyone is only allowed so many tags to be filled by law,.. when they are filled your done hunting. 

WHY should it matter the choice of weapon you use to complete the task. Your prey is not going to be any more dead if killed it's with the crossbow as opposed to a longbow, or a rifle. The crossbow regulation should be done away with all together. Why spent the thousands of hours, and countless sportsperson dollars arguing the issues regarding it. 

It's ridiculous and infantile in my opinion,.... traditional bow hunters need to grow up. :rant: 

It's time to progress to the obvious next level and make them *legal for any hunter* to utilize !


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

Here's where you and I respectfully disagree. There currently is NO agenda with DNR, NRC and/or State Legislature pertaining to unrestricted use of crossbows. It&#8217;s not even on anybody's radar screen. It's not even a "twinkle in some official's eye." To put it on somebody's agenda, is a monumental task, sometimes taking years to go through its due process. Again, at this moment, unrestricted use of crossbows does not exist. You can make it exist but first, you have to decide if that's a hill you want to die on. If yes, start climbing the hill! 

My point is this... when we say things like "we should make crossbows legal across the board" or, "what difference it makes what I kill a deer with" it does three things:

1. It muddies the argument of a very important issue that currently is on somebody's agenda, specifically: consideration of expanding the criteria that will allow a person with a disability to take game with a crossbow. It is a legitimate issue and, it is going through its due process.

2. It falls 100% on deaf ears with any official body because, I'm sorry, it is NOT a subject up for discussion with any official body, at least at this point in time. It's barking at the moon! Not criticism, but fact.

3. By trying to piggy-back your position (unrestricted use of crossbow) on the discussion at hand, plays exactly into the anti-crossbow society's (ACS) hand, which is EXACTLY what they want to happen, specifically: maintaining the status quo. 

This doesn't mean that you can not and/or should not be an advocate for unrestricted use of crossbows. Have at it. I, for one, have determined that the matters being discussed (disability criteria, etc.) _is_ a hill I'm prepared to die on and, I don't want the ACS to have any more of an advantage than they already have. 

Again, with all due respect, we win the battle one hill at a time. 

And, in case anybody forgot, my position on this matter is that, for a person with a disability to obtain a permit to take game with a crossbow, the individual merely be required to obtain and produce a letter from their own personal physician stating that in his/her professional opinion, the applicant has either a permanent and/or temporary condition that render him/her unable to pull and/or hold a long-, or compound-bow. 

This places the onus of defining, establishing and, determining the degree of severity of a disability squarely on the shoulders of the applicant and the physician and not the NRC. Of equal importance, is the fact that these matters, which are of a highly personal nature, are kept within in a totally-confidential, doctor-patient environment and not in the public domain.


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## TOW (Apr 2, 2008)

Riva,

I agree with you up to a point, *but ....*

The full use of crossbows in archery season will never get "on someones' agenda" if everyone just sits on their hands and just waits until it is on "someone's agenda.

They understand one thing - lots of voices. So far a vocal minority has kept crossbows out.

No doubt we can pursue both avenues at the same time...

This latest proposal can be a wake up call to all that want to have the ability to use another fine archery hunting piece of equipment. I think a few on here have awakened and asked," Why not?"



.


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

TOW said:


> Riva,
> 
> I agree with you up to a point, *but ....*
> 
> ...


TOW, you and I are in violent agreement!

If there is a desire to get unrestricted use of crossbows of somebody's agenda, I agree, it all starts with somebody to stop sitting on their hands and start a grass roots initiative towards that end. It will NOT come about however, by riding piggy back on the issues surrounding expansion of the criteria for persons with a disability, etc. etc. 

Any yes, they do hear many voices, so long as it defined and articulated in a manner and language that is required in due process. Anything less, it's just a lot of noise at a town hall meeting where everybody gets their 15 minutes of fame in front of the microphone. It's my experience that things that come out of those types of meetings go about 100 miles per-hour for about 12 feet!

Frankly, I would not call the Anti Crossbow Society (ACS) a vocal minority. At this time, they appear to be the only unified voice speaking to this issue. Regardless of their size, that, in my book, makes them the majority. 
It's the golden rule: "Those that have all the gold make all the rules". The ACS has all the gold.

Finally, I agree that two trains can travel parallel tracks however; it takes two trains and two sets of tracks. Right now, there's only one train and one set of tracks and that train is the issue of expanding the criteria for persons with a disability to use a crossbow.


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## 7MM Magnum (Sep 10, 2003)

Riva,...

I know for a fact that Any Weapon hunts are a do-able consideration unless there is some secret Idahoans know on regulating it that the people of Michigan don't know of. 

I have participated in a couple "Any Weapon" hunts in Idaho,... they seem to have no problem with it's capability what so ever. 

In my opinion,... the only reason the Anti Crossbow Society has what you term "All the Gold" is because they have been allowed to hold it,... and in this long time archers opinion they have held onto it WAY too long ! :16suspect If people keep saying that it can never be done,.. it's because no one has really put forth the effort and they've been told enough times that they can't do it,.. just like your saying in your explanation and people just believe that it can't be done. Your explanation of "trains and different tracks" is pure horse-hockey in my opinion. How many times has our government changed or added a line to a bill, and when it passes the vote is forever after a law? It's the same ol' "Piggy-back" line item your setting there telling us can't be done. Our government has a LONG history of doing it. 

This is all childish actions based on a few selfish, arrogant, unbending, individuals who can't see the light of day past their own hands. 

There WILL be a day when the law will state that anyone can use a crossbow when hunting afield. 

There isn't any reason in my mind for the state of Michigan not to be able to convert one more weapon for FULL legal use to hunt with. There's just too many good reasons for it's allowance in todays hunting society. It's time for the hardliners of traditional archery to face the facts. The energy that is now being used to alter the rule a just little,... should be concentrated to allowing anyone to utilize a crossbow regardless of physical limitations or lack of them. 

What's the logic behind the dis-allowance of a crossbow to begin with?? There have been numerous postings by certain individuals on our forums that have made claims but they lack any scientific basis or facts to justify their claims. All it boils down to is they feel a crossbow will dilute the pureness of what they term "Archery" and refuse to accept the "facts" as they have been presented.

It's a pretty sorry state of affairs when the outdoor sport of hunting can be allowed to be dictated by a minority of just a few selfish hardliner people! :rant:


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

don't forget that the NOVEMBER elections are coming up. if enough calls and e-mails go out to these elected officials something will have to give! i know i'll be in contact with mine and let them know that party lines can and will be broken if this legislation doesn't happen period! just as i have done in the past i'll cast my vote in the opposite party!


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

Sounds like you've decided that this is a hill worth dieing on. Welcome to the club! 

btw..sent you a pm


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## 7MM Magnum (Sep 10, 2003)

Riva said:


> Sounds like you've decided that this is a hill worth dieing on. Welcome to the club!
> 
> btw..sent you a pm


 
Ditto,... on both counts


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## Eric Jennings (Oct 27, 2005)

I am in support of the bill. I would stipulate though that there needs to be strong punishment for those that cheat the permitting system.


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

TOW said:


> Riva,
> 
> I agree with you up to a point, *but ....*
> 
> ...


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

please call and write the following people with your support of the crossbow
Commissioner Names and Addresses

Mary C. Brown 

1624 Grand Avenue

Kalamazoo, MI 49006

269-344-3738 (Office)

Appointed: 1/6/04

Reappointed: 2/6/08

Term Expires: 12/31/07

Democrat


Keith J. Charters (Chair) 

126 Spring Hill Road.

Traverse City, MI 49686

517-373-2352 (Office)

Appointed: 12/29/94

Re-Appointed: 12/20/01

Term Expires: 12/31/09

Republican


Hurley J. Coleman, Jr. 
2405 Bay Road
Saginaw, MI 48602
989-752-7957 (Office)
Appointed: 1/10/07

Reappointed: 2/6/08
Term Expires: 12/31/07
Democrat



Darnell Earley 

P.O. Box 70141

Lansing, MI 48908

517-373-2352

Appointed: 5/3/05

Term Expires: 12/31/08

Democrat


John Madigan 

831 W. Munising Avenue

Munising, MI 49862

906-387-4468 (Office)

Appointed: 1/1/03

Term Expires: 12/31/10

Republican



J. R. Richardson 

36658 McGuire Road

Ontonagon, MI 49953

906-885-7187 (Office)

Appointed: 4/6/07

Term Expires: 12/31/10

Republican



Frank C. Wheatlake 

Reed City Power Line Supply,

420 N. Roth Street,

P.O. Box 147

Reed City, MI 49677

231-796-5491 (Home)

231-832-2258 (Office)

Appointed: 2/6/01

Re-Appointed: 5/3/05

Term Expires: 12/31/08

Independent





Department of Natural Resources
Executive Division
Attention: Teresa Gloden
P.O. BOX 30028
Lansing, MI 48909
517-373-2352

[email protected]


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