# Here we go again (Cougers)



## Garret (Aug 2, 2002)

There may be cougars in Michigan
Updated: May 17, 2006 04:45 PM EDT Also on WOODTV.com 

Cougars - Do you believe they're in Michigan? 







GRAND RAPIDS -- There may be cougars in Michigan after all.

Dr. Brad Swanson and Dr. Patrick Rusz have co-authored a scientific paper in the American Midland Naturalist, published by Notre Dame University. In this paper, they found cougar droppings in scattered, remote regions of Michigan.

Between 2001-2003, nearly 300 droppings were collected from 12 areas of Michigan that had long histories of cougar sightings. 10 profiles contained DNA identified as cougars. One was a bobcat and the other a dog.

One DNA sequence from Delta County was long enough to identify it as a North American cougar.

While Swanson, a Central Michigan University professor, and Rusz from the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy, admit their findings don't prove the origin of the cougars, they believe it does prove these cougars are not released pets.

The Michigan Department of Natural Resources maintains there is not a sustainable breeding population in our state. If there was a sustainable breeding population, there would be many more of them. The spokesperson said there may be a random cougar, but they have either escaped or been released from captivity. According to the DNR, cougars are territorial and generally stay in one area

24 Hour News 8 has started a Forum for you to join in the conversation about cougars in Michigan. We invite you to participate and share your views, thoughts, and opinions.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Anything from the MWC is suspect, plain and simple. Having an article published proves nothing, yet again. How one can find ounces of Cougar poop, yet can't find a 100# Cougar is pretty good stuff. That forum should provide some interesting reads though!


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## mwp (Feb 18, 2004)

No kidding!! ounces of poop,no cougar....Even though I hope that they are here.In this day and age of trail cams its hard to beleive one has yet to show up on film.And of course someone will not post the infamous cougar stalking the deer,it never fails.


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## Overdew (Sep 7, 2004)

Here ya go.


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

I've done quite a bit of reading on the supposed existence of cougars in Michigan. First off, for cougars to exist in a highly populated state like Michigan without regular sightings is very illogical. I don't believe that photo for second. I don't believe the photo of "bigfoot" either. Then there is the fringe group that is so convinced that cougars are in Michigan that they are ready to put out food for them. Every piece of "evidence" presented has either been proven false or provided by sources that are not very credible. It seems that some people WANT to believe that cougars exist in Michigan, and therefore they accept any and all bits of information that might support what they WANT to believe. My interest is just curiosity, but I come from a scientific background, and very little of what I have seen or heard can be considered as documented evidence. When the DNR biologists have a dead or alive cougar(PROOF) to show us, I'll remain unconvinced that any cougars live in this state.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

mwp said:


> In this day and age of trail cams its hard to beleive one has yet to show up on film.And of course someone will not post the infamous cougar stalking the deer,it never fails.


They did in Clare Co. I think it was off of Grass Lk Rd near Farwell and they ran the picture in the local paper.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Last I heard, those photos were highly suspect.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

perca said:


> First off, for cougars to exist in a highly populated state like Michigan without regular sightings is very illogical.


Well consider this if there were say only 100 in the entire state, what would be the odds of seeing one? How many times have you seen a bear? A bobcat? There's thousands of them. How about a wolf? How long were they in the NLP before they were discovered? 

I think we'd all like to see something solid but cats are very elusive and if there's not many to begin with, may be pretty tough. I also believe that it's entirely possible that they weren't wiped out at the turn of the century and a few survived. Maybe eventually we may get the proof everyone would like.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Linda G. said:


> Last I heard, those photos were highly suspect.


I couldn't say, my brother cut the picture out and showed me and I never heard anymore about it and was curious myself if or what happened from there.


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

You should focus on the millions of Michigan residents throughout the state instead on one person in regards to sightings. With the population we have, and the mobility of hundreds of thousands of people into just about every area by ORV, ATV, horse, foot, boat, truck, etc. ..the lack of any documented sightings in itself speaks volumes. I have a cousin who hunts cats and coyotes with hounds in the UP quite often. He knows his tracks and sign, and swears he saw a cat track that HAD to be a cougar. It's some people "swearing" to that kind of identification that is so misleading to others. I respect my cousin's knowledge, but his OPINION that those tracks were from a cougar do NOT constitute FACT or PROOF. I'm a skeptic until the DNR wildlife biologists confirm, dead or alive, the existence of one cougar in Michigan. Nothing else is PROOF.Tracks, scat, photos, and dead prey(including a horse) are unconfirmed bits of evidence, but the proof is the cat itself.


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## spoikey (Jan 18, 2005)

So if you find mouse droppings in your house that still isn't proof you have a mouse. It doesn't exist till YOU see it. Personally I don't understand the scepticism about cougars existing in Michigan. I've lived in the Northern part of the lower peninsula since 1975. I've never seen a bear. That doesn't mean they don't exist for me even though I've had sign of them in my own yard. Why is it so hard to believe there are cougars here?


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## snaggs (Jul 20, 2005)

perca said:


> You should focus on the millions of Michigan residents throughout the state instead on one person in regards to sightings. With the population we have, and the mobility of hundreds of thousands of people into just about every area by ORV, ATV, horse, foot, boat, truck, etc. ..the lack of any documented sightings in itself speaks volumes. I have a cousin who hunts cats and coyotes with hounds in the UP quite often. He knows his tracks and sign, and swears he saw a cat track that HAD to be a cougar. It's some people "swearing" to that kind of identification that is so misleading to others. I respect my cousin's knowledge, but his OPINION that those tracks were from a cougar do NOT constitute FACT or PROOF. I'm a skeptic until the DNR wildlife biologists confirm, dead or alive, the existence of one cougar in Michigan. Nothing else is PROOF.Tracks, scat, photos, and dead prey(including a horse) are unconfirmed bits of evidence, but the proof is the cat itself.


 
................You undoubtedly are not Christian....and perhaps quite pessimistic...that is your perogitive...and I guess O.J. didn't do it because you did not see him do it....is that right...?????:lol:


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Spoikey
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt....maybe you have not viewed these threads in the past (do a search when you have 6-8 hours...pretty entertaining!) You have to read between the lines in some of these posts. Throw Cougars "evidence" and the MWC with Dr. Patrick Rusz in the same sentence and you will find many skeptics. The MWC has little if any credibility, regardless of being published etc, etc. So the whole premise that they have these poop samples that were legitimately found in the first place is questionable enough. This group is supposedly looking high and low and chasing every sighting in the state like a bad lawyer chases and ambulance, yet they cannot get proof. 
Just be leary of an agenda on the part of the MWC. 

I could care less and don't doubt that a few wild animals may exist in certain areas of the state, just quit telling me that we have them here in SW Michigan and metro Detroit unless you story can be backed with proof.


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## northwesthunter (May 5, 2006)

I have heard that the DNR chooses not to recognize the existance of cougars because the numbers are so small that tracking them wouldn't be worth it....just my 2 cents..


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

Wild animal SCAT(poop) constitutes evidence....not proof. This is Science 101Finding scat is one thing. Saying without a doubt that they came from a cougar would require one to watch them as the came from the posterior orifice(LOL) OF A COUGAR. Who among us can distinguish scats of a very large bobcat from a very small cougar??
The point made about the MWC is very well taken. It remains a mystery to me as to why this group is so determined to prove that cougars exist in Michigan. Scientific inquiry invloves solving a problem by doing controlled experiments. The object is to formulate an answer based on the results of those experiments. The MWC is working on this problem(Do cougars exist in Michigan?) on the premise that the answer is YES. They have convinced themselves that the big cats exist here and so ANTICIPATE and EXPECT that the tracks, sightings, and scats being reported ARE those of cougars. P. Rusz can be quoted repeatedly with statements indicating that he believes HIS opinions are FACTS. That's not the way science works, and people who know facts from opinions have little regard for what he has to say about cougars.
As I said, the existence of cougars in Michigan is of little interest to me, but I do get very concerned when an individual or group insists that their opinions are facts. Now...where ARE those cougars???


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## victor mi pro bowhunter (Feb 12, 2001)

M1Garand said:


> Well consider this if there were say only 100 in the entire state, what would be the odds of seeing one? How many times have you seen a bear? A bobcat? There's thousands of them. How about a wolf? How long were they in the NLP before they were discovered?
> 
> I think we'd all like to see something solid but cats are very elusive and if there's not many to begin with, may be pretty tough. I also believe that it's entirely possible that they weren't wiped out at the turn of the century and a few survived. Maybe eventually we may get the proof everyone would like.


 
Ya its like asking people in newyork if they ever saw a pigeon they all say yes
then ask them if they ever saw a baby pigeon very few could say yes.
but you know they got to be there because the big ones are there 
you cant just rule it out


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## Pauly3511 (Jan 16, 2006)

if you do not think there has been cougars sighted in michigan at some time you are an idiot plain and simple. There are not millions of people in michigan,,,,there is one million in Detroit,,,The U.P. has 250,000 if that and look at the land there is up here. There is a very healthy wolf population up here,,,ask people if they have evry seen one. The majority will say no its not like they are out running on the highways. So if there were a few stragglers up here would you expect numerous sightings...i would think not. The old cougar picture stalking a deer was proved to be fake a long time ago so no sense even wasting time with that. N o sense wasting time arguing if there are cougars cuz people will say no there is not no matter what until someone kills one or whatever,, then the next thing will be it was someones pet. So in al reality i dont even know why i waste my time replying let alone reading the same old **** about whether cougars have been in Michigan or not. People are gonna believe what they want and give their expert opinions no matter what, so i guess you just believe what you want to believe. i know one thing in all reality i dont care if they do or dont.


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## Overdew (Sep 7, 2004)

Pauly3511 said:


> if you do not think there has been cougars sighted in michigan at some time you are an idiot plain and simple. There are not millions of people in michigan,,,,there is one million in Detroit,,,The U.P. has 250,000 if that and look at the land there is up here. There is a very healthy wolf population up here,,,ask people if they have evry seen one. The majority will say no its not like they are out running on the highways. So if there were a few stragglers up here would you expect numerous sightings...i would think not. The old cougar picture stalking a deer was proved to be fake a long time ago so no sense even wasting time with that. N o sense wasting time arguing if there are cougars cuz people will say no there is not no matter what until someone kills one or whatever,, then the next thing will be it was someones pet. So in al reality i dont even know why i waste my time replying let alone reading the same old **** about whether cougars have been in Michigan or not. People are gonna believe what they want and give their expert opinions no matter what, so i guess you just believe what you want to believe. i know one thing in all reality i dont care if they do or dont.


DUDE settle down not a big deal go with the flow your dog did'nt get taken out. So just relax


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

This coming Memorial Day weekend there will surely be MILLIONS in Michigan. Tourists count when they come here to sight-see, snowmobile, hunt, trail ride, fish, etc and they cover a lot of our great outdoors. I agree that people often believe what they want to believe. I have no idea why anyone would WANT to believe or not believe that cougars exist in Michigan. IMHO there are no "idiots" in the controversy, but there are some(misguided) folks who insist that their opinions are facts. One fact we can all agree on? There has not been a cougar found dead or alive in Michigan. Therefore PROOF of their existence here has yet to be produced.


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## Domepiece (Dec 29, 2005)

look at the deer, it has a black tip to it's tail . . . . it's not a whitetail. . . has anyone found mule deer or blacktail deer poop in michigan yet? i doubt it. . . 
phony pic . . .and a dumb deer too

i am not saying that there are no cougars in michigan . . . i have no idea, i have never watched a cougar romping through the michigan wilderness, but whos to say there aren't any behind that next ridge or in that thicket that you are to lazy to go into? 

but that also brings up the question about bigfoot aka sasquatch. . . . hmmm i have never seen a bigfoot. . . but some people have . . . have any one you ever saw a sasquatch?


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## Pauly3511 (Jan 16, 2006)

there may be a little difference between a bigfoot and a cougar. and what in the hell does it have to do with my dog getting taken out LOL good lord. whatever im done


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## Domepiece (Dec 29, 2005)

some large apes are omnivorous, so it could have been bigfoot


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## Pauly3511 (Jan 16, 2006)

it was the lock ness monster


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## Oldgrandman (Nov 16, 2004)

Pauly3511 said:


> There are not millions of people in michigan,,,,there is one million in Detroit,,,The U.P. has 250,000 if that and look at the land there is up here.


9,938,444 people, that would be millions of people, live in Michigan according to my 2002 atlas. Kent county alone probably has 1/2 a million at minimum.
Seems there has to be a couple that have passed through if nothing else though.
Didn't a car hit one in the southern UP not too many years ago? Seems they called it an actual sighting. It showed up on a map MUCC had published as a confirmed finding.
Who could forget the wolf that got killed in Missouri that was collered and from Michigan. Wildlife roams a lot, like a wolverine that was finally found here.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Oldgrandman said:


> Who could forget the wolf that got killed in Missouri that was collered and from Michigan. Wildlife roams a lot, like a wolverine that was finally found here.



Haven't you heard the latest news on the Wolverine? DNA matches a strain that has only been found in Alaska. They are currently researching some strains in Ontario to see if it present there as well. If they cannot find that strain in Ontario, there's a pretty good bet that our "wild" Wolverine is an escapee from an illegal owner or hitched one hell of a long ride in a garbage truck!! It certainly did not just roam here. There's a very good article in this months Woods n Water.


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## Oldgrandman (Nov 16, 2004)

Swamp Monster, hadn't hear that about the wolverine. Interesting for sure.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

3 things in life are real. Death, Taxes and the monthly michigan cougar sighting 
I would love to think we have cougars in Mich. That would be great!!!
But until someone finds a cougar, dead or alive, with REAL PROOF that it is
from Michigan (drivers license, social security number, copy of State tax bill) I will have to think they are not here!!!
5 years ago, the local news reported sightings near Monroe. No cougar every found.
2 years ago, the local news reported a cougar in Sterling Hgts, Mi.
No cougar was ever found. And this was in Sterling hgts. Macomb county
right in the middle of Metro Detroit with 3/4's of Mich's population!!!!!!
So if the news reports it. If the papers show it. If the internet says theres proof, than i wont believe it. 
Heck i have a friend who lives out west and has seen them around the Rockies. Maybe i can have him get some pictures or video of them and send it to me. Than i can call the news and tell them i have proof of the cougars
I'll tell them i took the pictures/video in say Crawford or Luce county. That should get everyone sturred up!!!


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## BVW (Jul 25, 2002)

It's kinda scary to me to see what gets in the News and how fast people believe it. The MWC is to blame, they are getting around 50$ to talk about something that has not even been proven in Michigan. It makes me sick knowing these crackposts are getting paid to talk about an animal when none of them have even seen one in the wild. I don't think i would go on a Moose hunt or seminar and pay the guide $$ if he told me that he has never seen a moose but we have plenly of eye witnesses and have a movie on our website showing moose, but all the moose experts that viewed it said they were domestic cows :lol: http://www.easterncougarnet.org/michigan8-23-04.htm. 

But that is exacltly what people are doing, they are buying the crap the MWC is putting out. They are doing it for publicity for their "non-profit" org and cash. Why else would a group that does not work with other large animals do such a thing? I don't see them doing much for the wolf? 
I thought i would have a little fun with the MWC a few months ago and sent them these pics i took here in Allegan Co.
















They are stills from a Coyote i video taped in March, This was thier 1st reply::


> Could you please email us your phone number? Dr. Rusz would like to talk to you about your pictures.


. The 2nd reply was asking me about the grass length.
Turns out that ole Dr. Cougar expert does not know the difference between a coyote and a cougar, and he is the "Expert" and getting paid to teach people about Cougars in Michigan. If you paid 50$ for a Whitetail deer seminar and the pics the guy shows you are Mule deer i think thier credibilty would sufer a bit and you may want your money back. I think the MWC owes a lot of people a big refund, or they should be charged with frued in my opinion. Are there cougars in Michigan in my opinion?? maybe in the UP a lost one or 2 , but not a breeding pop.. Wild ones in the LP..?. no way could cougars adapt to urban life, they would be a fish out of water down here with the traffic, people, habitat loss ect... but i am sure the "experts" at the MWC would disagree 
Later Gaters,
BVW-


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## jakeo (Sep 14, 2004)

BVW said:


> It's kinda scary to me to see what gets in the News and how fast people believe it. The MWC is to blame, they are getting around 50$ to talk about something that has not even been proven in Michigan. It makes me sick knowing these crackposts are getting paid to talk about an animal when none of them have even seen one in the wild. I don't think i would go on a Moose hunt or seminar and pay the guide $$ if he told me that he has never seen a moose but we have plenly of eye witnesses and have a movie on our website showing moose, but all the moose experts that viewed it said they were domestic cows :lol: http://www.easterncougarnet.org/michigan8-23-04.htm.
> 
> But that is exacltly what people are doing, they are buying the crap the MWC is putting out. They are doing it for publicity for their "non-profit" org and cash. Why else would a group that does not work with other large animals do such a thing? I don't see them doing much for the wolf?
> I thought i would have a little fun with the MWC a few months ago and sent them these pics i took here in Allegan Co.
> ...


 
Thats a good one. If you send them a picture of a herd of deer i bet they would increase the number of ELK drawings:lol:


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