# Missing salmon answered right here...



## Treven

Jay Wesley said:


> Since the 1985 lake trout restoration plan came out, the recommendation was to stock 6.7 million trout in Lake Michigan. That number was never achieved because of the amount of stocking required for all the Great Lakes. Lake Michigan has been steadily stocked with about 3 million yearling equivalents based on the 2011 lake trout rehabilitation strategy agreed to by the Lake Michigan Committee (states and tribes). There are also clear goals to determine when lake trout are rehabilitated. With the reduction of alewife and increase of gobies in the diet, lake trout populations are taking off in the southern half of the lake due to increased natural reproduction. As we approach these goals, there will be opportunity to reduce stocking. Recognize that it was the change in diet that allowed this to happen (increase in trout numbers) and not any increases in stocking.


Great, but why are they still desired? Is there no longer a consumption advisory on them? I get they are for commercial fishing, but this isn't adding up. If there is a consumption advisory on them, what use are they to the commercial industry if there is a consumption advisory?

There are these invasive species nobody has to pay a dollar to stock, we can't get rid of them fast enough, nobody likes them either, and they don't eat alewives. They are called Asian Carp. They weren't a problem in 1985. Times change, why aren't we!?! Let the whole damn commercial fishery feed on those pieces of trash and leave our Great Lakes alone. Everybody is happy then...

While I'm at it, presenting Lake Trout as a fill-in for King Salmon for sportfishing in the above linked article was an absolute slap in the face. If you wanted to present plans to plant east coast Atlantics (not those little land-lockers out of Torch Lake...), introduce a fall oriented strain of steelhead (ie NY's Chambers Creek), hell, maybe figure out what NY is doing to get all those Brown Trout to run their rivers in the fall, I'd be standing up and calling for a standing ovation. Nope. I didn't see or hear anything that promising.

Clearly this site is starting to strike a nerve, and it's about time!


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## Lou is Blue

msfcarp said:


> Testify brother, astounding how many on here either ignoring the facts or not willing to believe.


I'm not refusing to believe, I'm saying the crash is here, right now. However, at select northern ports, there is far more going on. I'll pick on Frankfort because it's such a favorite of so many people. You've got to be old enough to remember fishing it in the "glory days", and by that I mean 70s and early 80's before BKD. What is profound and not mentioned, was the diversity of the cold water fishery there. The good days were all multi species days there. It would be anything but uncommon to see 4-5 different species in a single morning. That difference; is not only the dearth of bait brought on by the collapse of the food chain from the bottom (from the mussels); but habitat destruction, brought on by the gradual collapse of the dunes, the reduced dredging, and the pure volume of silt and debris filling in Betsie lake, as well as the harbor. Hell in the harbor there's hardly enough room to turn and troll anymore. Certainly I remember a number of boats that used to spend most of the day in there picking up Browns and an occasional salmon (that bald guy in the little green mirro-craft in particular). Deeper water, and that less clear (I know, mussels again), would have prevented what has become a unidimensional fishery completely reliant on kings at night. An ability for the lake and harbor area to hold emeralds, spottails, Gobi, and gizzard shad, combined with a more diverse planting approach would hopefully help other species to more regularly feed around the piers; leading back to higher angler satisfaction; and less dependence on Kings. It also would mean to expand summer run stocking....but hey that's just my view.


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## Robert Holmes

Why not have commercial fishing for both lake trout and asian carp and feed the haul to inmates and homeless shelters. Both species provide a good source of food and it would save taxpayers millions of dollars.


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## swampbuck

fishinDon said:


> You can actually see the difference in the water clarity from 12+ years ago when I first moved near the lake. It's getting more and more clear (sterile) every year. I'm not sure if there's anyplace that monitors water clarity year over year but that data would be really interesting to look at.


It's called a secchi disk reading, they do it inland, so probably on the Great Lakes also.

On Higgins lake the zebras have increased or visibility from 27' to 41'

And the smelt are almost completely gone.


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## Corey K

So everyone is 100% certain that the mussels took care of all the Ale's in Lake Huron? I think they overstocked it ( not just Salmon either, walleyes included) Ale's were depleted, blame it on mussels. They took to long to realize the "wild" numbers and overstocked, then they did drastic cuts but, they were not in time. Now it's back to blaming mussels, no plants, 2 bad winters, and more lake trout plants...


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## Lou is Blue

Corey K said:


> So everyone is 100% certain that the mussels took care of all the Ale's in Lake Huron? I think they overstocked it ( not just Salmon either, walleyes included) Ale's were depleted, blame it on mussels. They took to long to realize the "wild" numbers and overstocked, then they did drastic cuts but, they were not in time. Now it's back to blaming mussels, no plants, 2 bad winters, and more lake trout plants...


I don't go near the lake trout plant issue because it becomes a circular anti Indian diatribe. The Feds govern the laker arrangement, which is tied to the settlements regarding the treaties, which is largely the error of our forefathers; who on the whole, got away with all manner of hell.


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## Fishndude

fishinDon said:


> You can actually see the difference in the water clarity from 12+ years ago when I first moved near the lake. It's getting more and more clear (sterile) every year. I'm not sure if there's anyplace that monitors water clarity year over year but that data would be really interesting to look at.


I read that NOAA did a study, and determined that the Great Lakes are clearer than they have been for 5,000 years. How anyone knows how clear the lakes were 5,000 years ago is beyond me, but that was the result of a study I read somewhere. And the Mussels are to blame.

I am old enough to remember the Betsie being a multi-species mecca. Salmon (Kings, and Cohos), Browns, Steelhead all were caught in huge numbers. It was a fantastic winter river for a long time, even though it froze up for long periods in some stretches. The Ausable was similar, as were many MI rivers. ALL of these species have declined significantly since the introduction of Zebra, and Quagga Mussels. All of the baitfish that these fish focus on have declined in numbers, too. I agree that the DNR can shift planting strategies to maximize the types of fish that are least affected by the Mussels, but they all are affected negatively. The only species I know that have benefitted from Mussels are Sheephead, and Gobies. Sure I have heard of all sorts of fish eating Mussels, but those two are the only ones I know of whose numbers have increased significantly since the Mussel invasion.


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## Treven

Robert Holmes said:


> Why not have commercial fishing for both lake trout and asian carp and feed the haul to inmates and homeless shelters. Both species provide a good source of food and it would save taxpayers millions of dollars.


While I am all for this in a very sinister way, this is likely why it won't happen:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch/MDCH_EAT_SAFE_FISH_GUIDE_-_NORTHWEST_MI_WEB_455357_7.pdf

So again (DNR & Feds), what is the point of a commercial fishery for lake trout if they under a consumption advisory? They are not a preferable sport fish and as much as I hate to say it, I'd rather see Sheephead than Lake Trout just because they eat some mussels. Lake Trout don't. People want to catch lake trout? Then go somewhere where they get big and let them go for another day. They aren't getting big in Lake Michigan (even if they did, I still wouldn't care for them...), they aren't worth consuming, I would much rather target other species to put a bend in my rod. There is an unending supply of Asian carp. Let the commercial fishery decimate that pathetic debacle. You'll look like heroes! The lake trout do compete for alewives and other bait fish that our sport fish species feed on, other than the nearly defunct Chinook and Coho salmon population.

I haven't directly stated this, but I would be completely happy if we changed focus on sport fish in Lake Michigan and let the salmon go. I'm raising hell because this was a dog$h!t way to go about everything. The whole great lakes fishery is fabricated at some level now mainly due to invasive species, but this talk about going back to "the way nature intended it" is a crock of crap. We are so far past that, its ridiculous to even think that is possible. Lets take advantage of the lemons (invasives) and continually make different flavors of lemonade (fall-run steelhead, east coast atlantics, a desireable brown trout program - they would all fill the void!!). Lake Trout are the easy way out and it will hurt the future. Lets do it right and create a world class, diverse fishery instead of half-assed lake trout, please!?! Clearly there a some serious politics going on and I wonder where all the lake trout being harvested are going. If they are feeding human beings or are feeding the food for human beings, this sounds like a great class action lawsuit against the lake trout commercial fishing industry. If all these lake trout are here for sport fishing, somebody needs a swift kick in the pants...


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## Corey K

Treven said:


> While I am all for this in a very sinister way, this is likely why it won't happen:
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch/MDCH_EAT_SAFE_FISH_GUIDE_-_NORTHWEST_MI_WEB_455357_7.pdf
> 
> So again (DNR & Feds), what is the point of a commercial fishery for lake trout if they under a consumption advisory? They are not a preferable sport fish and as much as I hate to say it, I'd rather see Sheephead than Lake Trout just because they eat some mussels. Lake Trout don't. People want to catch lake trout? Then go somewhere where they get big and let them go for another day. They aren't getting big in Lake Michigan (even if they did, I still wouldn't care for them...), they aren't worth consuming, I would much rather target other species to put a bend in my rod. There is an unending supply of Asian carp. Let the commercial fishery decimate that pathetic debacle. You'll look like heroes! The lake trout do compete for alewives and other bait fish that our sport fish species feed on, other than the nearly defunct Chinook and Coho salmon population.
> 
> I haven't directly stated this, but I would be completely happy if we changed focus on sport fish in Lake Michigan and let the salmon go. I'm raising hell because this was a dog$h!t way to go about everything. The whole great lakes fishery is fabricated at some level now mainly due to invasive species, but this talk about going back to "the way nature intended it" is a crock of crap. We are so far past that, its ridiculous to even think that is possible. Lets take advantage of the lemons (invasives) and continually make different flavors of lemonade (fall-run steelhead, east coast atlantics, a desireable brown trout program - they would all fill the void!!). Lake Trout are the easy way out and it will hurt the future. Lets do it right and create a world class, diverse fishery instead of half-assed lake trout, please!?! Clearly there a some serious politics going on and I wonder where all the lake trout being harvested are going. If they are feeding human beings or are feeding the food for human beings, this sounds like a great class action lawsuit against the lake trout commercial fishing industry. If all these lake trout are here for sport fishing, somebody needs a swift kick in the pants...



Also something I would like to add about our beloved Lakers...It won't be long that most of the Lakers we catch in Lake Michigan are sub legal, take 3 years ago and the average size was much bigger. Last few years the size of the Lakers was above average, especially during June/July offshore just below the Steelhead. Well after 3 years of Charters, Tournaments, and regular people (like myself) the average size has already dipped. Take Frankfort for instance, a 1st mate ( not going to name) told me that by the end of this season they were catching mostly sub's, clients were disappointed, they put the boat in dry storage a month ago. So how are these slow growing non fighting slimeballs going to fill the void! Not only to do they target Ale's, they prey heavily on bloater chubs, perch, suckers, etc. Now if everything goes according to plan it will be like Lake Huron where most give up and the Lakers do get a chance to grow and it's Poundtown on dumb Lakers! Then mix in a few Steelhead that were destined for a river and it's a mixed bag fishery!


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## Treven

Lou is Blue said:


> I don't go near the lake trout plant issue because it becomes a circular anti Indian diatribe. The Feds govern the laker arrangement, which is tied to the settlements regarding the treaties, which is largely the error of our forefathers; who on the whole, got away with all manner of hell.


I don't disagree with your statements, but why is there a lake trout commercial fishery if there are serious consumption advisories? People shouldn't eat much, obviously animals shouldn't eat much (especially ones we eat...), and if its for fertilizer, all those bad chemicals that are found in those fish go into the plants we would eat or our live stock would eat. So it's a vicious circle that never goes away... That is the real reason nobody wants to talk about it, ha ha, we are just giving the native americans the shaft, again!

Before everyone thinks I've gone soft, I think in the land of equality, our laws make everyone equal. I think all of the special rights takers have overstayed their welcome. Everyone has the right to work their tail off just like their neighbor does. If anyone wants hand outs, go to Canada, they have a WAY better lake trout fishery than down here...


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## Jay Wesley

There are no consumption advisories on commercial caught lake trout. Different standards for commercial fish which fall under Food and Drug Administration. The Lake Trout rehab documents are available and show the path forward. Like has been stated, there is room to make changes in southern part of lake.


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## mrjimspeaks

Obama fish....just wow. The level of dumb there is mind numbing. Not like they're a native species or anything. Are you really that blanking stupid? When Obama was elected he planned to get rid of Salmon in the great lakes....because reasons? Are the Lake Trout that have been here long before the Salmon the reason the Alewife's are crashing? Nope. Do people just attach Obama's name to anything that pisses them off? Did everyone blame Slick Willie when Huron crashed?


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## salmo'dog

mrjimspeaks said:


> Obama fish....just wow. The level of dumb there is mind numbing. Not like they're a native species or anything. Are you really that blanking stupid? When Obama was elected he planned to get rid of Salmon in the great lakes....because reasons? Are the Lake Trout that have been here long before the Salmon the reason the Alewife's are crashing? Nope. Do people just attach Obama's name to anything that pisses them off? Did everyone blame Slick Willie when Huron crashed?


Well...we now know who is of Liberal mindset.

Bwaaaa haa ha!


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## Clum

I cant imagine the amount of damage the smallies are doing around the harbors and river mouths.


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## Robert Holmes

The people that go to a fish market and purchase lake trout or eat them off from a menu are likely to eat well below the consumption advisory amount of lake trout in a year. If you fish for them and like to eat them that is a different story. Believe it or not suckers are one of the preferred fish on the consumption advisory. So don't throw the suckers back smoke them can them and make sucker patties. I do.


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## Treven

mrjimspeaks said:


> Obama fish....just wow. The level of dumb there is mind numbing. Not like they're a native species or anything. Are you really that blanking stupid? When Obama was elected he planned to get rid of Salmon in the great lakes....because reasons? Are the Lake Trout that have been here long before the Salmon the reason the Alewife's are crashing? Nope. Do people just attach Obama's name to anything that pisses them off? Did everyone blame Slick Willie when Huron crashed?


Jeebus, I know he didn't plant them or was behind that treaty. They resemble everything he is about. That would fly right over the head of somebody with a liberal mindset...

Hello!!!!


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## cowboy48098

Treven said:


> Jeebus, I know he didn't plant them or was behind that treaty. They resemble everything he is about. That would fly right over the head of somebody with a liberal mindset...
> 
> Hello!!!!


Bhahaha


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## Treven

Jay Wesley said:


> There are no consumption advisories on commercial caught lake trout. Different standards for commercial fish which fall under Food and Drug Administration. The Lake Trout rehab documents are available and show the path forward. Like has been stated, there is room to make changes in southern part of lake.


I figured that was the case, just wanted everyone to see it from somebody other than me. Of course, why wouldn't there be different standards for a fabricated commercial fishery we have zero control over? The FDA are in with the Feds who are planting the Lake Trout, right? Wait, the FDA are another branch Feds! Huh... weird coincidence.

Heaven forbid the treaty be influenced by the ever-changing balance of the lake ecosystem, right? Nope, we gotta let Feds plant all those "higher quality" (ha ha!) commercial lake trout no matter how much they affect the lake ecosystem balance... no foot stomping from us, no studies, no nothing - from us. "The salmon have run their course, but here's lake trout far ya!" Lets make good on this salmon demise and offer up all these lake trout (we incidentally don't have to pay to plant - directly. I pay my taxes though, so that sucks I am indirectly paying for this mess...) as sportfishing replacement. Yay...

The lake trout didn't cause all of this, I know that. But they are making things worse whether that subject going to be admitted or not. I believe we have the know-how and power to create a MORE desirable fishery if we (The State of MI and surrounding Great Lakes States) wanted to. I just see the easy button getting pushed because it is viewed as a worthless battle. Lake Michigan IS worth it.


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## Capt.Bob

I am heading for NY after my buddy get's off work, seems the the NY DNR knows a little more about keeping a fishery healthy, After last year, I had enough, and I do blame Michigan DNR, they could care less if there are 50% fewer fisherman,,,, Open your eyes and quit listening to the BS. They double the price of licenses for NR to take care of that loss, then make all residents buy an all species license knowing full well all residents have to have one if they want to fish period doubleing there profits along with the price increase,,,, then cut stocking cost 60+%,,, and they end up making more money!! Then the whole time the trout fisherman kiss their ars and tell everyone else it what has to be done, they know whats best, ya whats best for them,,,, I see why some blame Obama for this one,,,, another intelligent comment!! 

Wake up Michiganders,,,, it's called fleecing, and your taking it hook line and sinker!!!


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## AdamBradley

How many of you have spent time speaking with mark tonello about what he does outside of the office? These are people guys, not just names. And guess what? These dudes are fishy folks just like us. "The dnr" is an attack on certain individuals whom do indeed deeply care for the fishery. Kind of sad to see everyone's frustration and confusion as to what is going on be a blatant assault on "the dnr". Blame obama, blame slick willie, do what you like, don't blame the guys who worked doubles on Easter to save steelhead at the weir. Have any of you made a move that deep to show you care and work for the fishery? Look at all the actions, just not a source of blame for the negative consequences of multiple variables... rant over, popcorn in lap.


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## Fishndude

Capt.Bob said:


> I am heading for NY after my buddy get's off work, seems the the NY DNR knows a little more about keeping a fishery healthy, After last year, I had enough, and I do blame Michigan DNR, they could care less if there are 50% fewer fisherman,,,, Open your eyes and quit listening to the BS. They double the price of licenses for NR to take care of that loss, then make all residents buy an all species license knowing full well all residents have to have one if they want to fish period doubleing there profits along with the price increase,,,, then cut stocking cost 60+%,,, and they end up making more money!! Then the whole time the trout fisherman kiss their ars and tell everyone else it what has to be done, they know whats best, ya whats best for them,,,, I see why some blame Obama for this one,,,, another intelligent comment!!
> 
> Wake up Michiganders,,,, it's called fleecing, and your taking it hook line and sinker!!!



Sorry for taking this shot, but you are delusional. If you are a charter captain, whose clients mainly fish for Salmon, I certainly understand you being unhappy, and upset. But the facts do exist, and have been detailed on here many times. Lake Ontario is the "most downstream" of the Great Lakes, and Erie dumps into it. Erie is the shallowest of the Great Lakes, and is drains areas of land that are very rich in nutrients. For that reason alone, it has maintained better nutrient load for the stuff that feeds up the food chain to Salmon. But make no mistake about it, the Kings on lake Ontario are getting smaller every year. Eventually they will almost surely be gone, too. 

How come nobody is crying about the demise of Diporeia Shrimp? That is really what has disappeared, and what Alewives feed on in our lakes. You just can't put them on a hook.


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## Treven

AdamBradley said:


> How many of you have spent time speaking with mark tonello about what he does outside of the office? These are people guys, not just names. And guess what? These dudes are fishy folks just like us. "The dnr" is an attack on certain individuals whom do indeed deeply care for the fishery. Kind of sad to see everyone's frustration and confusion as to what is going on be a blatant assault on "the dnr". Blame obama, blame slick willie, do what you like, don't blame the guys who worked doubles on Easter to save steelhead at the weir. Have any of you made a move that deep to show you care and work for the fishery? Look at all the actions, just not a source of blame for the negative consequences of multiple variables... rant over, popcorn in lap.


I don't think Wesley or Tonello are the problem in the least. I think its higher than them, actually. Hell, my biggest wish is those two guys and those like them put their collective minds together fabricate the next latest and greatest fishery around Michigan. They are going to have to step on some toes to do it, and that includes the feds. It's make-it or break-it hero-time. Lake Trout and a dependency on our current strains of steelhead, Little Manistee's and Skamania's, could be better. Instead, all I hear is salmon are gone, we plant Little Manistee's and a few Skamania's and the Feds have been graciously giving us our salmon savior: El Grease Bass. That's pretty damn frustrating.

Clearly, there is a new forage dynamic in our lakes, lets be agile and exploit it? A better year round mix of Steelhead, Browns, and Atlantics (ones that grow a bit bigger than our current length-challenged stockers) would be desirable, no? Wouldn't those fish provide a big lake and river fishery that would more easily adapt to our ever changing forage base? Isn't that what was alluded to in those State of the Salmon diatribes? The lakers gobble up voraciously a lot of bait these other species could thrive on. I want a better fishery. Not a ho-um laker fishery, a few salmon sprinkled in, and some steelhead for good measure.


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## JasonSlayer

mrjimspeaks said:


> Obama fish....just wow. The level of dumb there is mind numbing. Not like they're a native species or anything. Are you really that blanking stupid? When Obama was elected he planned to get rid of Salmon in the great lakes....because reasons? Are the Lake Trout that have been here long before the Salmon the reason the Alewife's are crashing? Nope. Did everyone blame Slick Willie when Huron crashed?


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## mrjimspeaks

Treven said:


> Jeebus, I know he didn't plant them or was behind that treaty. They resemble everything he is about. That would fly right over the head of somebody with a liberal mindset...
> 
> Hello!!!!


So a native fish that's been here long before Salmon etc. resembles everything Obama stands for? That's quite a stretch. Guess you'll have to explain that one to me...It's the ecology stupid.


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## Jay Wesley

Treven said:


> I don't think Wesley or Tonello are the problem in the least. I think its higher than them, actually. Hell, my biggest wish is those two guys and those like them put their collective minds together fabricate the next latest and greatest fishery around Michigan. They are going to have to step on some toes to do it, and that includes the feds. It's make-it or break-it hero-time. Lake Trout and a dependency on our current strains of steelhead, Little Manistee's and Skamania's, could be better. Instead, all I hear is salmon are gone, we plant Little Manistee's and a few Skamania's and the Feds have been graciously giving us our salmon savior: El Grease Bass. That's pretty damn frustrating.
> 
> Clearly, there is a new forage dynamic in our lakes, lets be agile and exploit it? A better year round mix of Steelhead, Browns, and Atlantics (ones that grow a bit bigger than our current length-challenged stockers) would be desirable, no? Wouldn't those fish provide a big lake and river fishery that would more easily adapt to our ever changing forage base? Isn't that what was alluded to in those State of the Salmon diatribes? The lakers gobble up voraciously a lot of bait these other species could thrive on. I want a better fishery. Not a ho-um laker fishery, a few salmon sprinkled in, and some steelhead for good measure.


For the most part, I do call the shots for Lake Michigan and work with the other state. I have never been told to manage for lake trout. There are no higher ups or conspiracy trying to change the lake. It is invasives. The same amount of lake trout, steelhead, brown trout, and coho have been planted in the lake for decades. What has changed is the ecosystem. If there was all this new capacity in prey for lake trout, why didn't those other species fill the gap? Their weights are down and numbers too for the most part. They vary their diet some and can survive with low alewife. Lake trout have responded with the lowers alewife and have shown strong signs of natural reproduction in the last few years. They grow slow, move slow, and will go deep to cold water to slow their metabolism. Chinooks constantly swim high in the water column searching for suspended prey. They did awesome with lots of alewife. 

What is the new strain of steelhead, coho, or brown that will do better. Overall the prey is down. Gobies are the most abundant and can be variable too. Unless a predator is completely keyed on gobies, most of our predators will experience a decline in the new sterile conditions provided by an invasive species. 

Lake Ontario is experiencing low prey abundance too. They had a couple recent year classes of alewife and have generally had chinook numbers more in check.


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## REG

Guys, blaming the DNR in this instance is like kicking your dog for not telling you you're wife was cheating on you. Don't comply with federal plans/programs and you just might see your federal funding held hostage. Remember that one of the duties of the Great Lakes Fishery Commission originally was to oversee commercial fishing on the Great lakes and follow the breadcrumbs from there.


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## AdamBradley

Well stated jay. Sorry I left you out of my "dnr defense" rant! .... the only point I'd like to ask, is why are we not considering filling the river angler's (soon to be?) fall fishery gap with londons? I plan to spend a lot of time and money in Ohio and PA this fall, why can't we have that money and angler effort retained in michigan? I am certain I am one of many making the south easterly trip. Granted the strain doesn't grow as large as the little man, but they do well out there, and the numbers are a riot. Any significant differences in ecosystems which prohibits londons? Forgive my ignorance if there has been an attempt at establishing them for a fall fishery too. Thanks!


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## Jay Wesley

I do not know much about the London Stain. The DNR is working on a new management plan for Lake Michigan this winter. We will explore new strains during that process.


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## hotbite

Maybe it is time to turn the Little Manistee into an Atlantic Salmon factory? They prey heavily on gobies and thrive when alewive numbers are down. A good fall run strain of Steelhead or if Michigan would step up to the plate on the Skamania plants that would be nice to see as well. You have to spend money to make money! Very few people like to fish for Lake Trout in Lake Michigan, they fight like crap and they taste the same.


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## Jay Wesley

We will consider various options while developing the management plan, which will include several public engagement opportunities. In all known studies comparing michigan winter strain and ska mania, the winter strain out performed skamania. Michigan winter strain run late summer through spring as it is. Indiana is looking into switching more winter strain because of this. We have tried various strains of coho and brown trout through the years with no good results. We will see how Atlantics perform in Lake Huron and possibly consider that in the future. Point being, new strains may not help if there is a prey problem. We will definitely be open to your suggestions. Our number one priority right now is to maintain and improve the chinook.


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## Trunkslammer

I may be devils advocate and slightly off topic but the crash of Lake Huron happended 10 years ago and still there are no decent sport fishing opportunities there. I fish Huron a fair amount and im sick of walleye and lakers and the occasional steelhead. I realize the dnr are experimenting with atlantics and have had quite a learning curve trying to get them to survive. But here i am 10 years into it still with nothing progressing. I hope Lake Michigan doesnt follow suit but why hasnt something bounced back in the Huron system? I am not trying to bash anybody here even though it might read that way but really just looking for answers and insight.


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## cowboy48098

AdamBradley said:


> Well stated jay. Sorry I left you out of my "dnr defense" rant! .... the only point I'd like to ask, is why are we not considering filling the river angler's (soon to be?) fall fishery gap with londons? I plan to spend a lot of time and money in Ohio and PA this fall, why can't we have that money and angler effort retained in michigan? I am certain I am one of many making the south easterly trip. Granted the strain doesn't grow as large as the little man, but they do well out there, and the numbers are a riot. Any significant differences in ecosystems which prohibits londons? Forgive my ignorance if there has been an attempt at establishing them for a fall fishery too. Thanks!


I fished and have buddies that fish the 20 mile Creek in Erie, PA and man talk about loaded with Steelhead. There's so many Steelhead their that it reminds me of Ausable early 90's. Literally loaded


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## Treven

Jay Wesley said:


> I do not know much about the London Stain. The DNR is working on a new management plan for Lake Michigan this winter. We will explore new strains during that process.


This is all I was wanting to hear! Progress. Thank you.

Please explore NY's Chambers Creek Strain (not the PA mutt strain). Heck, take a field trip and bring your rod. They start coming in well in the early fall through mid-winter. I really think it would be an excellent fall/early winter balance to fill the void. I will say, the London strain I was never impressed with (might be because of Lake Erie though... even our Little River fish are different down there). London's are pretty much a river running lake trout compared to NY Chambers Creek. Let's do it right.


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## Treven

And I'm talking about NY Chambers Creek Strain in both Lk Ontario and Erie Tribs. They are spectacular fish and every bit on par with our Little River fish.


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## ausable_steelhead

Trunkslammer said:


> I may be devils advocate and slightly off topic but the crash of Lake Huron happended 10 years ago and still there are no decent sport fishing opportunities there. I fish Huron a fair amount and im sick of walleye and lakers and the occasional steelhead. I realize the dnr are experimenting with atlantics and have had quite a learning curve trying to get them to survive. But here i am 10 years into it still with nothing progressing. I hope Lake Michigan doesnt follow suit but why hasnt something bounced back in the Huron system? I am not trying to bash anybody here even though it might read that way but really just looking for answers and insight.


What a bunch of nonsense. Good grief man...get a clue.


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## pohlkat

Fishndude said:


> "Yeah, but............." Please stop living in denial that the Mussels are destroying the ecosystem of lake Michigan for Salmon. The problem really IS that simple, and straightforward. It has been stated many times, and is as true as it ever has been. If a solution to the Mussels is ever found, then perhaps the Alewives will come back, and then Salmon will follow. I'm sure there will always been at least some King Salmon in MI, but planting them just doesn't make sense. Why plant fish that will just starve to death, and will never provide any sport for anyone?
> 
> _"The water was too warm for spawning three years ago. The winters have been too cold. The run is late, wait a couple weeks. The run already happened, you should have been here two weeks ago. Gobies are eating the juvenile Salmon. The DNR cut the Salmon plants too severely."_
> 
> I heard all of these excuses when lake Huron crashed, including the Goby theory. There are lots more. The only theory that is legit is the theory that the Quagga Mussels have sucked the plankton life out of the lake, and the food the Alewives feed on has pretty much disappeared. But, but, but.........NO BUTS!
> 
> Last year the Salmon return on the Big Manistee river was down probably at least 80% from peak returns. This year is worse, by all accounts. I have only heard of 2 rivers in MI where there have been real good numbers of Salmon this year. One can't be fished, and they both won't be named.
> 
> The modeling I heard of previously all predicted that next year will be worse than this year, and likely a lot worse for Salmon returns. How much worse can it get before almost everyone forgets about Salmon fishing?


×2 ^


----------



## msfcarp

Capt.Bob said:


> I am heading for NY after my buddy get's off work, seems the the NY DNR knows a little more about keeping a fishery healthy, After last year, I had enough, and I do blame Michigan DNR, they could care less if there are 50% fewer fisherman,,,, Open your eyes and quit listening to the BS. They double the price of licenses for NR to take care of that loss, then make all residents buy an all species license knowing full well all residents have to have one if they want to fish period doubleing there profits along with the price increase,,,, then cut stocking cost 60+%,,, and they end up making more money!! Then the whole time the trout fisherman kiss their ars and tell everyone else it what has to be done, they know whats best, ya whats best for them,,,, I see why some blame Obama for this one,,,, another intelligent comment!!
> 
> Wake up Michiganders,,,, it's called fleecing, and your taking it hook line and sinker!!!


I am thinking you should just stay in NY


----------



## AArrowhead

All this blaming Obama, the DNR, what to stock etc. who caused this mess? The corporate commercial shipping industry. Has anything changed that? NO. I guess that would be the conservative approach. Blah...ha, ha. Now the same industry will let the Asian carp in. Yeah we can beat each other up while the rats run away with the cheese. We will chasing our own tails until that problem is fixed. One positive. When one thing gets worse something else gets better. What will that be?


----------



## Corey K

AArrowhead said:


> All this blaming Obama, the DNR, what to stock etc. who caused this mess? The corporate commercial shipping industry. Has anything changed that? NO. I guess that would be the conservative approach. Blah...ha, ha. Now the same industry will let the Asian carp in. Yeah we can beat each other up while the rats run away with the cheese. We will chasing our own tails until that problem is fixed. One positive. When one thing gets worse something else gets better. What will that be?



The thing that has gotten better has been mentioned earlier, phenomenal near shore Sheepshead!


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## Robert Holmes

Why not privatize the whole fish stocking program. Get the feds and state out of it. We could probably do fine if they never planted another lake trout for the next 10 or so years.


----------



## Fishndude

I don't think anyone in the DNR could have foreseen the devastation that would result from the introduction of Zebra, and Quagga Mussels, when the decision to plant another predator in the lakes was being considered. I never heard of them before they were found in our lakes, which was decades after the Salmon were introduced. But once I knew of them, and read up on them, I was (literally) terrified of what they would do to our lakes. And plenty of my buddies poo-poohed me about my fears. Today we are all sad together that I was right to be afraid.


----------



## Fishndude

deathroe said:


> View attachment 192176
> The eggs on the left came out of salmon last week that was spitting them (tiny). Also I never saw so many fresh salmon with legit loose eggs. We landed over a 100 salmon in 2 1/2 days 3 guys and 50 % had tiny eggs. Do you think the lack of bait has anything to do with it?


Yeah, I got some eggs from buddies who were able to make a trip without me. Mostly tiny eggs, where they used to be roughly the size of my little finger-nail. Not sure what conspiracy the DNR has going to reduce the amount of baitfish that Kings focus on, but I'm sure it exists.  

Glad to see you OH boys got into a real good amount of fish, J. Best report I've heard this fall. Hopefully Steelhead season is a lot better than Salmon season.


----------



## Capt.Bob

Fishndude said:


> Yeah, I got some eggs from buddies who were able to make a trip without me. Mostly tiny eggs, where they used to be roughly the size of my little finger-nail. Not sure what conspiracy the DNR has going to reduce the amount of baitfish that Kings focus on, but I'm sure it exists.
> 
> Glad to see you OH boys got into a real good amount of fish, J. Best report I've heard this fall. Hopefully Steelhead season is a lot better than Salmon season.


Well its not a conspiracy, didn't think anyone said it was,,, pretty obvious the prey aint there like it was, ans even more obvious since we only target the predator,,, it ain't either!!

as for doing good, that was 5 guys for 3 1/2 days, with the best day one guy getting three, a couple nothing and no one else had more than 2 a day, and they fish from 6am to 8pm every day but left at 3pm Sunday. That's what we used to do in one day with 5 guys, and usually better. But if all you go there for is the fish, your missing a lot!!!


----------



## fishfray

Not that I know anything about the science and ecology of Lake Michigan, or what is going on with the salmon fishery but....

There was a WALL of alewives off the mouth of the platte river this weekend, the water was dark with them and they were dying on the beach . Tons of massive alewife schools in the river as well. Couldn't say the same about the salmon...


----------



## Capt.Bob

Yep,, them dang Charters!!! They caught em all!!!!!


----------



## deathroe

More info that is interesting to read: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10364_53405-297817--,00.html


----------



## toto

I was at the Platte yesterday and couldn't believe my eyes. There must have been millions of em in there. Hopefully they'll survive to grow bigger and reproduce. I'm not sure why they are there, never seen that in all the years I've fished there, but I don't think that's the only place they are showing up.


----------



## kzoofisher

Food flows down the rivers. If they are starving out in the lake they will bunch up where the food is. If this is a new phenomena it is strong support for everything the DNR is saying and doing.


----------



## FishMichv2

toto said:


> I was at the Platte yesterday and couldn't believe my eyes. There must have been millions of em in there. Hopefully they'll survive to grow bigger and reproduce. I'm not sure why they are there, never seen that in all the years I've fished there, but I don't think that's the only place they are showing up.


probably looking for something to eat.


----------



## Corey K

kzoofisher said:


> Food flows down the rivers. If they are starving out in the lake they will bunch up where the food is. If this is a new phenomena it is strong support for everything the DNR is saying and doing.



Could be or a better water temp?


----------



## Lou is Blue

Capt.Bob said:


> It amazes me that people think something not worth eating is worth wasting their time for... Put your 12' rod away get out a med light 6'6" custom Legend Elite with built with Recoil Guides, using 6 lbs test and a 1000 Sustain on it and find out what fishing with less than 9 oz sitting in your hand is!!! Your reel weighs more than my whole outfit. It is all how you want to fish, if you want to beat them up with heavy rods and tackle go for it... My boat had one rule on it, "fish hard or stay home", my clients were told before they paid their deposit, this is a drift fishing Charter, we don't drag lures all over the lake hoping to get lucky. I put you on fish,,,,, and you fish for them, that's the way my clients fished.
> 
> But to think the entire country should chase fish that are not worth eating is insane. When everyone's tax dollars are involved it is also irresponsible. The world is not all about what one group wants, we need diversity and and a great fishery for others, it's not just about you. There are a lot of people that are capable of being successful fishing for a number of species, and realize each one requires different tactics and gear to not only be successful but to have the best experience doing it. I have a couple lakes that I have more fun catching 8" to 12" Bluegill and Redears on 5' and 6' UL Avids on with 4# test than I ever had catching Salmon or Steelhead.
> 
> I personally put up over 250 Walleye a year. Same with Perch, and 3 or 4 trips a year get's me 6 or 8 meals a year of the huge Gill's. I make one or two trips a year for Salmon or Trout,,, just don't see what is better about them than the other trips I take when I catch more and larger for the species fish on other trips. If I want to have fun I will hit a reef and pound 3 to 7 pound Smallies on a few reefs as well as you can find in anywhere. But that will be done with light tackle and trust me I will be on 20 or more fish any day I do go for those fun fish. Once you learn how and where to be succesful for any species and match your gear to give the best experience fishing for them from Blue Gill's to Musky,,, you can have the best time you ever had going for any one of them, but you have to learn how to do more than one thing efficiently to get that feeling,,,, some of us have!! These are just my gill thru Pike riggs, the Salmon and Musky gear are not shown, but that is because that is my least fun species to go for, for trout I i would use my 4wt 7wt or 9wt Legend Ultra fly rods, all use Reddington AL large arbor reels matched to the weight rods they are on. I would hate to only know how to get the same thrill catching only one species,,,,, but this is all I do, hunt fish shoot,,,, and want a world class destination for everyone of those species, not 100's of destinations for just one species,,, for some that would be ideal, to me it would be very boring!!!


It amazes me that guys will spend so much time fishing for groceries. In the end, all you have is time. Spend it with what you like best. For me, that's not warm water fish. I grew up fishing a variety of smallmouth waters with an occasional pike or walleye and the mess of panfish thrown in. I took up carp fishing because I enjoyed the periodic giant 25 pounder. I caught an 8lb walleye last weekend on a 4-8 pound rated steelhead rod by accident and put it on the pier in perhaps less than a minute. Spare me the wonders fishing groceries, I'll be driving to more remote lake superior streams in Canada, or flying to the West Coast before I take up green fish again.

If second guessing the MDNR was what we wanted to do, perhaps they should have just stuck with everything but kings; it would have made returns more predictable and adjustable; without the natural runs of kings developing.


----------



## Capt.Bob

Spare me the justification of needing to pound the chest in pursuit of garbage fish,,,, you want those type of fish, pack your bags because the MDNR is proving,,,, you aint gonna be gett'n there much longer,,,,


----------



## Robert Holmes

Lou I fish for groceries and I hunt for groceries apparently your wife buys the groceries in your house or you would be fishing for groceries too. I just made a batch of pickled pike ( it would cost me $70 to buy that much pickled herring) I am smoking a steelhead tonight ( that same fish smoked would cost about $50). Dinner will be venison chili (hamburger $20). That saves me $140.00 that I can spend on fishing and hunting. Keep on letting your wife buy the groceries and I will keep on hunting and fishing for mine.


----------



## Lou is Blue

Robert Holmes said:


> Lou I fish for groceries and I hunt for groceries apparently your wife buys the groceries in your house or you would be fishing for groceries too. I just made a batch of pickled pike ( it would cost me $70 to buy that much pickled herring) I am smoking a steelhead tonight ( that same fish smoked would cost about $50). Dinner will be venison chili (hamburger $20). That saves me $140.00 that I can spend on fishing and hunting. Keep on letting your wife buy the groceries and I will keep on hunting and fishing for mine.


I smoke and grill a lot of my fish, but if it can't take line off the reel, it's a grocery - not a game fish. I'd start targeting sturgeon, flatheads, and big sheepheads before I'd get out of bed for walleye.


----------



## cowboy48098

Lou is Blue said:


> I smoke and grill a lot of my fish, but if it can't take line off the reel, it's a grocery - not a game fish. I'd start targeting sturgeon, flatheads, and big sheepheads before I'd get out of bed for walleye.


C,mon man Sheephead! I catch big Sheephead off the pier in Oscoda all day because nobody keeps them, and neither do I. I hate catching those things, but it's better than nothing at all I guess.


----------



## Capt.Bob

Robert Holmes said:


> Lou I fish for groceries and I hunt for groceries apparently your wife buys the groceries in your house or you would be fishing for groceries too. I just made a batch of pickled pike ( it would cost me $70 to buy that much pickled herring) I am smoking a steelhead tonight ( that same fish smoked would cost about $50). Dinner will be venison chili (hamburger $20). That saves me $140.00 that I can spend on fishing and hunting. Keep on letting your wife buy the groceries and I will keep on hunting and fishing for mine.


Some have ate **** for so long they think it's food!! I'm with you don't even confuse the chemically enhanced and preservative soaked and gassed **** they sell in the store,,, I'll fill my freezer myself! Last year was slow and I only put up 230 some Walleye, usually have over 250 before I start wasting my time on other species. Like you last year had 8 deer in the freezer, this year it's going to be tough, and I may have to tag a couple out of state to get enough, I can only tag 6 in Ohio this year,,, but be damed if I poison myself lett'n the old lady buy make believe food to survive, besides,,, even she is smarter than to do that, and would probably leave me if I didn't provide anything but poison for her to eat,,,,

I think these kids just like to punch keys, because anyone with half a brain that has been around to know the difference realizes how much they talk out their ars to make up for the lack of knowledge, and even if they don't know how little common sense they make those that have been there done that do!!


----------



## Lou is Blue

Capt.Bob said:


> Some have ate **** for so long they think it's food!! I'm with you don't even confuse the chemically enhanced and preservative soaked and gassed **** they sell in the store,,, I'll fill my freezer myself! Last year was slow and I only put up 230 some Walleye, usually have over 250 before I start wasting my time on other species. Like you last year had 8 deer in the freezer, this year it's going to be tough, and I may have to tag a couple out of state to get enough, I can only tag 6 in Ohio this year,,, but be damed if I poison myself lett'n the old lady buy make believe food to survive, besides,,, even she is smarter than to do that, and would probably leave me if I didn't provide anything but poison for her to eat,,,,
> 
> I think these kids just like to punch keys, because anyone with half a brain that has been around to know the difference realizes how much they talk out their ars to make up for the lack of knowledge, and even if they don't know it they how little common sense they make!!



You talking to me bag of wind bob? In busy beating my chest over here....


----------



## Capt.Bob

cowboy48098 said:


> C,mon man Sheephead! I catch big Sheephead off the pier in Oscoda all day because nobody keeps them, and neither do I. I hate catching those things, but it's better than nothing at all I guess.


Next time take Lou wit ya he's the sheepshead connoisseur,,,,, everybody's got a taste for different species,, but sorry lou there ain't enough tartar sauce in New England to make them species edible for me,,, have at em, and Lou, your holes shouldn't be crowded......


----------



## cowboy48098

Capt.Bob said:


> Next time take Lou wit ya he's the sheepshead connoisseur,,,,, everybody's got a taste for different species,, but sorry lou there ain't enough tartar sauce in New England to make them species edible for me,,, have at em, and Lou, your holes shouldn't be crowded......


Lou wouldn't like my attitude. I cuss, smoke, drink to much out on the River. Plus I get pissed when all I catch is ****heads.


----------



## JVoutdoors

Did Mettlefish change his handle to Capt. Bob? Cannot believe there are 2 people on the forum that both know everything and are so proud to tell everyone else they know nothing if they don't agree with him.


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## Robert Holmes

I think that the Sheepshead would be better to eat than a lake trout. Best of all none of your license dollars are wasted planting sheepshead. Can you imagine the feds planting 7 million sheepshead every year. I would prefer that over the lake trout.


----------



## Robert Holmes

Lou is Blue said:


> I smoke and grill a lot of my fish, but if it can't take line off the reel, it's a grocery - not a game fish. I'd start targeting sturgeon, flatheads, and big sheepheads before I'd get out of bed for walleye.


You are missing out Lou I get out of bed early every chance that I get to catch salmon, trout, pike, and walleye. When I am done getting my freezer stocked I go to bed. At 4 am on the weekends you usually find me fishing except winter then it is 7 am.


----------



## GVDocHoliday

The past weekend at Tippy Dam was pretty good. It was a even mixture of rotten kings, healthy summer run Skams, and gorgeous coho. In fact we were seeing limits of skams. 

Nobody is throwing lead, no combat fishing, parking lots were full, campground was full, I saw more kids fishing below the coffer than the last 4 falls combined...and those kids were getting fish bottom bouncing spawn on single hooks. 

A rarity this time of year with the large crowds...the parking lots remained clean as trash and litter seemed to find its way into the trash bins, the campground was clean with nobody burning their trash and cleaning fish at their site, the vaults were clean with no poo-casos painting a masterpiece on the walls, yet we were turning away people for 4hrs due to full parking lots. 

And people were CATCHING fish. It seems the crowds that liked ripping ticklers over beds to get their 5 fish an hour decided not to show up with the new gear regs, but their numbers were more than offset by centerpinners, bottom bouncers, and families. 

The weather forcast for this weekend and this weekend looks like we may be setting up for another strong weekend with more fish. River temp should finally get below 55deg and with all the rain that's forcast followed by a Saturday and Sunday that's low 50's and sunshine....sounds like a great fall weekend of camping, fishing, and hunting to me.


----------



## ausable_steelhead

GVDocHoliday said:


> The past weekend at Tippy Dam was pretty good. It was a even mixture of rotten kings, healthy summer run Skams, and gorgeous coho. In fact we were seeing limits of skams.
> 
> Nobody is throwing lead, no combat fishing, parking lots were full, campground was full, I saw more kids fishing below the coffer than the last 4 falls combined...and those kids were getting fish bottom bouncing spawn on single hooks.
> 
> A rarity this time of year with the large crowds...the parking lots remained clean as trash and litter seemed to find its way into the trash bins, the campground was clean with nobody burning their trash and cleaning fish at their site, the vaults were clean with no poo-casos painting a masterpiece on the walls, yet we were turning away people for 4hrs due to full parking lots.
> 
> And people were CATCHING fish. It seems the crowds that liked ripping ticklers over beds to get their 5 fish an hour decided not to show up with the new gear regs, but their numbers were more than offset by centerpinners, bottom bouncers, and families.
> 
> The weather forcast for this weekend and this weekend looks like we may be setting up for another strong weekend with more fish. River temp should finally get below 55deg and with all the rain that's forcast followed by a Saturday and Sunday that's low 50's and sunshine....sounds like a great fall weekend of camping, fishing, and hunting to me.


Actually, I'd say their numbers were more offset by a terrible salmon run, than reg changes. The meat-rippers have no easy fishing, so they are not showing up. Your report flat out sounds wonderful for this time of year! Salmon bring out the slobs and BS...your report is proof. Gonna be glad kings are gone.


----------



## GVDocHoliday

229,000 coho were planted at Tippy in the last 10days.


----------



## JVoutdoors

Thanks for the reports GVDoc. Your assessment of the changing conditions and participants is what I noticed on the Betsie a few weekends ago. Lot less trash, more kids, more fishing. I may even fish the Tippy again.


----------



## Capt.Bob

I was there a week ago and my buddy 2 weeks ago and this past weekend, what we both realized is a lot less fish,,,, and a lot less people!! on the river and especially the creeks!!


----------



## Fishndude

GVDocHoliday said:


> 229,000 coho were planted at Tippy in the last 10days.


Yeah, I saw all those Smolts in the river, and wondered what they were. They seemed to be oriented to the place. I didn't see any dead ones at all. Hopefully in 3 years..........


----------



## GVDocHoliday

Fishndude said:


> Yeah, I saw all those Smolts in the river, and wondered what they were. They seemed to be oriented to the place. I didn't see any dead ones at all. Hopefully in 3 years..........


Personally, I would take coho over kings any day.


----------



## slightofhand

ausable_steelhead said:


> Actually, I'd say their numbers were more offset by a terrible salmon run, than reg changes. The meat-rippers have no easy fishing, so they are not showing up. Your report flat out sounds wonderful for this time of year! Salmon bring out the slobs and BS...your report is proof. Gonna be glad kings are gone.


Don't worry...the rippers will be out in full force killing your precious steelhead when they show up. Wait...they aren't showing up because there are no kings to follow into the river for food.


GVDocHoliday said:


> The past weekend at Tippy Dam was pretty good. It was a even mixture of rotten kings, healthy summer run Skams, and gorgeous coho. In fact we were seeing limits of skams.
> 
> Nobody is throwing lead, no combat fishing, parking lots were full, campground was full, I saw more kids fishing below the coffer than the last 4 falls combined...and those kids were getting fish bottom bouncing spawn on single hooks.
> 
> A rarity this time of year with the large crowds...the parking lots remained clean as trash and litter seemed to find its way into the trash bins, the campground was clean with nobody burning their trash and cleaning fish at their site, the vaults were clean with no poo-casos painting a masterpiece on the walls, yet we were turning away people for 4hrs due to full parking lots.
> 
> And people were CATCHING fish. It seems the crowds that liked ripping ticklers over beds to get their 5 fish an hour decided not to show up with the new gear regs, but their numbers were more than offset by centerpinners, bottom bouncers, and families.
> 
> The weather forcast for this weekend and this weekend looks like we may be setting up for another strong weekend with more fish. River temp should finally get below 55deg and with all the rain that's forcast followed by a Saturday and Sunday that's low 50's and sunshine....sounds like a great fall weekend of camping, fishing, and hunting to me.


Sounds like utopia...12 of my closest steelheader friends just read this post and told 40 other guys about skam limits up there. See you this weekend, bring your shoulder pads.


----------



## Lou is Blue

Wait...they aren't showing up because there are no kings to follow into the river for food.

I don't understand the prevalence of this misconception. Before we had salmon we had steelhead; those steelhead started hitting the rivers in late September and October ....... Even though there were no salmon eggs.


----------



## toto

Lou is Blue said:


> Wait...they aren't showing up because there are no kings to follow into the river for food.
> 
> I don't understand the prevalence of this misconception. Before we had salmon we had steelhead; those steelhead started hitting the rivers in late September and October ....... Even though there were no salmon eggs.


Absolutely, they've been in Michigan since around 1880's or somewhere around there. So obviously they were not eating salmon eggs then, unless they were really really good at that anadromous thing.


----------



## Abel

Ya, Ohio has good fall runs, and there's no Salmon to follow up to feed either....


----------



## Robert Holmes

The steelhead will run when the weather is more cooperative. It has to be 20 degrees and snowing for the steelhead to make a big push into the rivers. You bite the ice off from your eyes and wish that 13 foot pole was a six footer. I just love it when a big steelhead is on and that rod ice just flies off. In the UP you have two maybe three good weeks before it all turns to ice. Then you are sitting on a block of ice watching tip ups bring it on because the tip ups catch steelhead too.


----------



## Jfish

Abel said:


> Ya, Ohio has good fall runs, and there's no Salmon to follow up to feed either....


I wouldn't call the Fall Ohio runs good by any stretch. Ohio stocks MI Manistee strain...the same exact strain that MI stocks and has naturally reproducing. There's a problem with OH though. Since OH decided to only stock the Manistee they just don't really show up in the rivers until February >. I'm sure that there are some that trickle in but not many.

OH Fall runs consist of PA mutts that are lost and just go into any of the rivers. PA stocks a Fall (small and dinky) run strain. They do run and spawn in the Fall and early Winter though.

You must be thinking of 'back in the day' when OH stocked what they called a London strain and they were Fall run. Since those are gone the Fall is a pitiful run. The farther East you go in OH the better the Fall run because there's a better chance of catching a PA mutt since they hold farther East in late summer because Lake Erie is deeper there.


----------



## slightofhand

Lou is Blue said:


> Wait...they aren't showing up because there are no kings to follow into the river for food.
> 
> I don't understand the prevalence of this misconception. Before we had salmon we had steelhead; those steelhead started hitting the rivers in late September and October ....... Even though there were no salmon eggs.


But where are they? Where were they last year? Nothing like it used to be. I know we caught several hundred ourselves in the big lake, and Manistee guys were pounding them all summer offshore. It is unfortunate that our river steelhead fishery is crashing before our eyes as well.

I talk to two full time Manistee guides every couple of days...a few coho, not even to tippy yet. And summer run skamania have been done since..well..summer. They are not coming again boys, time to head west.


----------



## Kisutch

slightofhand said:


> But where are they? Where were they last year? Nothing like it used to be. I know we caught several hundred ourselves in the big lake, and Manistee guys were pounding them all summer offshore. It is unfortunate that our river steelhead fishery is crashing before our eyes as well.
> 
> I talk to two full time Manistee guides every couple of days...a few coho, not even to tippy yet. And summer run skamania have been done since..well..summer. They are not coming again boys, time to head west.



Dead on the bottom of your big lake boat. 20 pound tackle with spin doctors and meat, way to chase after those steelhead.

Kisutch


----------



## JB85

Kisutch said:


> Dead on the bottom of your big lake boat. 20 pound tackle with spin doctors and meat, way to chase after those steelhead.
> 
> Kisutch


Unfortunately with a lack of kings, steelhead will receive additional pressure out in the lake. We've had poor fall steel runs before, but if we get another one this year you can't help but think it's having an impact. 

There are lot's of lakers though and will be more because they are planting the crap out of them.


----------



## Fishndude

slightofhand said:


> But where are they? Where were they last year? Nothing like it used to be. I know we caught several hundred ourselves in the big lake, and Manistee guys were pounding them all summer offshore. It is unfortunate that our river steelhead fishery is crashing before our eyes as well.
> 
> I talk to two full time Manistee guides every couple of days...a few coho, not even to tippy yet. And summer run skamania have been done since..well..summer. They are not coming again boys, time to head west.



The decline of Alewives affects all predator fish that feed on them in the great lakes. Kings focus almost exclusively on Alewives for food, but Cohos, Steelhead, Browns, and Lakers all eat them when the opportunity exists. The opportunity is dwindling, and the numbers of all those fish have declined.

After lake Huron crashed, the DNR continued to plant upwards of 500,000 Kings in the Ausable each year. They just didn't return - they died after being planted. What is the use of planting fish that are destined to die before they can provide angling opportunities? So stocking was cut, then cut further, and finally was discontinued. When Huron crashed, we had a couple/few years with almost no Steelhead returning to rivers, as well. 2005 totally sucked. The Steelhead runs on the east side aren't even close to what they were like before the crash. But we have fish to play with, just not real big sizes, and not big numbers.


----------



## slightofhand

Kisutch said:


> Dead on the bottom of your big lake boat. 20 pound tackle with spin doctors and meat, way to chase after those steelhead.
> 
> Kisutch


 Kind of a low blow Kisutch. I am more of a spoon guy when targeting steel, which I rarely if ever do. When they are around, yes, they hit all the same stuff we catch salmon on...I can't help that.

I also float fish extensively, do a fair amount of pinning, and enjoy river fishing immensely. What I don't enjoy is listening to pompous elitist steelhead pinheads who think steelhead are "their" fish, and if you aren't wearing 
$500 worth of Simms gear or you aren't some pier toad who has never owned or been on a boat...then you don't have a right to harvest "their" fish.

You think ******* jackwagons from Tennessee who snag kings at Tippy are annoying, try looking in the mirror Kisutch.


----------



## jigsnwigs

I think we should dedicate a section of this this entire forum to everyone who wants to whine, piss, and moan about the poor Salmon runs, or excessive Lake Trout stocking, and DNR bashing.

Then the real die hard/hard core fisherman can get back to what really matters... Catching fish. It doesn't matter what forum you pull up. Its the same old BLAH BLAH BLAH. Accept the current conditions for what they are and move on. Here is a novel idea. Find another hobby that you can look on with a positive attitude. Stop beating the same old drum! It does get old and worn out.


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## FishKilla419

jigsnwigs said:


> I think we should dedicate a section of this this entire forum to everyone who wants to whine, piss, and moan about the poor Salmon runs, or excessive Lake Trout stocking, and DNR bashing.
> 
> Then the real die hard/hard core fisherman can get back to what really matters... Catching fish. It doesn't matter what forum you pull up. Its the same old BLAH BLAH BLAH. Accept the current conditions for what they are and move on. Here is a novel idea. Find another hobby that you can look on with a positive attitude. Stop beating the same old drum! It does get old and worn out.


Great post. What's left? What's coming in where and how am I going to catch them? That's what I'm thinking about.


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## carsonr2

Wonder how many of the whiners have been on the Big Man. in the last week? Fishing is actually pretty damn good right now....several species around and if you know how to fish you should have no problem getting into something.


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## crazy4eyes

FishKilla419 said:


> Great post. What's left? What's coming in where and how am I going to catch them? That's what I'm thinking about.


Opening day of gun season through the first week of April I will be on that mission


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## toto

crazy4eyes said:


> Opening day of gun season through the first week of April I will be on that mission


You won't be alone, I can tell you that.


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## Fishndude

carsonr2 said:


> Wonder how many of the whiners have been on the Big Man. in the last week? Fishing is actually pretty damn good right now....several species around and if you know how to fish you should have no problem getting into something.


Must be all the fish that didn't go up the Little Manistee, to the weir, just decided to stay in the Big River to spawn. The fish harvest at the weir is down 85% from last year, and last year was the worst return in history, by a long shot. Glad you are banging lots of fish in the Big River, though. At least someone is having a great time. I saw quite a few people casting fruitlessly at Tippy last weekend. I only saw 1 guy clean a fish at the cleaning station, although I did see some others take fish out in coolers without cleaning onsite. I'm looking forward to Steelhead numbers picking up soon.


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## carsonr2

Fishndude said:


> Must be all the fish that didn't go up the Little Manistee, to the weir, just decided to stay in the Big River to spawn. The fish harvest at the weir is down 85% from last year, and last year was the worst return in history, by a long shot. Glad you are banging lots of fish in the Big River, though. At least someone is having a great time. I saw quite a few people casting fruitlessly at Tippy last weekend. I only saw 1 guy clean a fish at the cleaning station, although I did see some others take fish out in coolers without cleaning onsite. I'm looking forward to Steelhead numbers picking up soon.


Yeah, Little Man return was poor, but there have been fish arriving at the weir as of late, not large numbers, but more fish.

Big river seems to have fish in the areas it is supposed to. Definitely not huge numbers of fish, but more than enough to not consider it a lost cause.


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## Bigbird517

I fished a large river in SW Michigan yesterday with 2 friends. We fished about 1 1/2 miles of river. Saw hundreds of dead salmon on the bottom in slower water. Saw hundreds of fish spawning in that mile and a half stretch. Fish are big and healthy, no skinny bodies. Probably hooked up 50 times myself.


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## deathroe

http://howardmeyerson.com/2015/11/09/dnr-holds-the-line-on-2016-king-salmon-stocking/


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## antlergeek23

The missing salmon have nothing to do with alewives. The state wants to add fish pens in the Great Lakes, increasing revenue on GMO salmon. On Lake Michigan and Lake Huron. It's time to get used to steelhead and trout. Salmon fishing will never return in Michigan. Surely it will be missed


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## Robert Holmes

Most of the planted fish won't survive so let em go.


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## toto

Just found this article, it's about 5 years old, but it shows that it was known 5 years ago as to exactly what is happening.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100903210420.htm


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## Lou is Blue

antlergeek23 said:


> The missing salmon have nothing to do with alewives. The state wants to add fish pens in the Great Lakes, increasing revenue on GMO salmon. On Lake Michigan and Lake Huron. It's time to get used to steelhead and trout. Salmon fishing will never return in Michigan. Surely it will be missed


For the love of God, please close this thread


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## swampbuck

toto said:


> Just found this article, it's about 5 years old, but it shows that it was known 5 years ago as to exactly what is happening.
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100903210420.htm


Good read, thanks.

As far as the crash. I think it's been pretty clear it would happen when Huron crashed. The mussel's aren't new, just new here. They have been doing what they are doing for millions of years.

Some just can't accept this.


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## michiganmaniac

I have a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, it's just the time of year has got me thinking about it. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I can help me out.

So I was reading about whitefish on the dnr website and it said that they primarily prey on "insects, freshwater shrimp, small fish and fish eggs, and bottom organisms". All those things(except fish eggs) sound like organisms that need plankton to survive, and obviously there is near none of that in the lake due to the mussels, causing a lack of diporeia shrimp, lack of alewives blah blah blah...so if the whitefish feeds on the bottom of the food chain just like alewives, how come they haven't crashed? Or have they and it's just less noticeable because there are so many? I really don't know. I'm not a conspiracy theorist haha, I'm just wondering.


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## michiganmaniac

Sorry guys, I think I answered my own question. I should have done a bit more digging first. I found this.

http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2005/20050005.pdf


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## Robert Holmes

The whitefish are crashing as are a number of other species.


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## Corey K

Robert Holmes said:


> The whitefish are crashing as are a number of other species.


Which one Michigan or Huron? Huron is doing pretty good.....


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## Robert Holmes

Corey K said:


> Which one Michigan or Huron? Huron is doing pretty good.....


Not according to the tribal fishermen who make a living off from catching whitefish


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## Corey K

Robert Holmes said:


> Not according to the tribal fishermen who make a living off from catching whitefish


Plenty south of your area...and there has been for awhile.


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