# Flip Pallot on the PM



## mcfish (Jan 24, 2010)

A fishing show called Fishing Frontier that aired tonight on the Outdoor channel featured the PM's salmon fishing. 

It was Flip Pallot fishing the flies only section of the PM and the show was centered around Baldwin. If you get a chance, try to DVR it or catch it on the net. 

It was very entertaining and informative. Flip does a great job as a host/narrator.


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## castforcash (Feb 25, 2009)

Been watching him for years and he is without a doubt one of the best!!
Team Chubby Darter, Home of the "Merry Minions"


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## twohats (Oct 1, 2004)

I am new to fly fishing ,but have always loved to watch Flip. I feel he is the Poet of fly fishing.


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## Carpmaster (Apr 1, 2004)

Was a good show, good story, even if flyfishing for kings! :evilsmile


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## w7durango (May 28, 2005)

i missed it but itll b on at 730 am sunday


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## jerrob (Aug 6, 2011)

dont get that channel here in Indiana, at least I dont. That's the first Mi river I fished (at the age of 41) for trout behind the Red Moose Inn. If anyone has a web link to see all or part of this, would appreciate link. Thanks and tight lines.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Vicious Fishous (Sep 12, 2006)

What day did they go where you didn't see anybody else on that river? Darn good editing.
I like seeing places I know, it's about time they do a local salmon river show. But...The technique and flies they were using should have been explained more. For someone thinking they drive to Michigan and "fly cast" a nymph at a spawning salmon and have it take it readily, are in for a minor disappointment. I fish all many techniques,including C'n D, and I wish they would explain it for what it is. Rather than a glorious fly fishing zen experience of fooling a fish into a taking fur and feathers.
I got into flyfishing because of watching guys slay fish using c'n'd. First rod was an 8wt. Did it for a while before I realized the flossing aspect. That was around the time I thought I was really an astute salmon fisherman. But I'm good at it(accurate casting) So it's still fun to get a sore arm. But the people I introduce to c'n'd get the honest truth about what they are trying accomplish. 
It's like putt putt. You putt(cast) the ball(fly) down the green(river), watch out for the windmill(log) and get it in the hole(salmon mouth). No par.
It would be cool to see a streamer chucking, or even skein and bobber show.
Pete


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Vicious Fishous said:


> What day did they go where you didn't see anybody else on that river? Darn good editing.
> I like seeing places I know, it's about time they do a local salmon river show. But...The technique and flies they were using should have been explained more. For someone thinking they drive to Michigan and "fly cast" a nymph at a spawning salmon and have it take it readily, are in for a minor disappointment. I fish all many techniques,including C'n D, and I wish they would explain it for what it is. Rather than a glorious fly fishing zen experience of fooling a fish into a taking fur and feathers.
> I got into flyfishing because of watching guys slay fish using c'n'd. First rod was an 8wt. Did it for a while before I realized the flossing aspect. That was around the time I thought I was really an astute salmon fisherman. But I'm good at it(accurate casting) So it's still fun to get a sore arm. But the people I introduce to c'n'd get the honest truth about what they are trying accomplish.
> It's like putt putt. You putt(cast) the ball(fly) down the green(river),
> ...


Nice to see some honesty!


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## castforcash (Feb 25, 2009)

While this "flossing" as you call it does occur, I really don't think that all c and d fisherman are intentionally trying to hook fish in this manner. Call me a liar or whatever you want, but I have had savage hits on flies while utilizing c and d on the pm and the big manistee. I rarely visit the forums dedicated to rivers and fly fishing on this site due to all the trash talk. Sorry but I think your comments are off base.

Team Chubby Darter, Home of the "Merry Minions"


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

This is gonna go sour real fast. Any guess to how many posts before the padlock?


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

castforcash said:


> While this "flossing" as you call it does occur, I really don't think that all c and d fisherman are intentionally trying to hook fish in this manner. Call me a liar or whatever you want, but I have had savage hits on flies while utilizing c and d on the pm and the big manistee. I rarely visit the forums dedicated to rivers and fly fishing on this site due to all the trash talk. Sorry but I think your comments are off base.
> 
> Team Chubby Darter, Home of the "Merry Minions"


Why would they need to put effort into it, it happens so easily......


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## castforcash (Feb 25, 2009)

I agree 100% just thought I had to defend the honest fisherman out there. As I said, I normally don't even post in this forum! Kudos to Flip a true steward to our Passion of fly fishing. I'm out

Team Chubby Darter, Home of the "Merry Minions"


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## MDH (Aug 1, 2006)

I'm not much of a fly fisherman, but I did watch the show. Can someone fill me in with what C and D is? Thanks! 

MDH

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## castforcash (Feb 25, 2009)

MDH said:


> I'm not much of a fly fisherman, but I did watch the show. Can someone fill me in with what C and D is? Thanks!
> 
> MDH
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


You're not actually fly fishing. You use a fly rod and reel and instead of your normally weighted fly line you use what is called a running line or shooting line. To that you attach about 15' of 15# test mono. Put a small snap swivel on that line then a bead then a small barrel swivel. From the barrel swivel you run your leaders. A weight gets attached to the snap swivel. Leaders and weight vary according to depths and flow. Best way to describe it in lamens terms, you are rigging your fly rod to fish like a spinning rod setup for bottom bouncing. If you go to Schmidt outfitters website, they have good pics of what I am talking about. Baldwin bait and tackle site does too I believe. 

Team Chubby Darter, Home of the "Merry Minions"


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

cant we just wait till august for this to start again? on a different note cnd is a very useful tool when it comes time for the annual egg take...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bull Market (Mar 12, 2005)

Trout King said:


> cant we just wait till august for this to start again? on a different note cnd is a very useful tool when it comes time for the annual egg take...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here we goooooo! Bring out the padlock.


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## jerrob (Aug 6, 2011)

Bull Market said:


> Here we goooooo! Bring out the padlock.


ditto, both sides got to beat their drums all last fall, and here we go again..........in January! Gonna be a long winter Bull.

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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

Didn't get to see the show. I've always thought that more "fishing show" types should feature Michigan's steelhead fishery. Flip Pallot's Walker's Cay Chronicles was perhaps the show that made me want to learn to fly fish. Did he fish with a Michigan guide? Hey Flip, come on back in March and I'll show you some great spots for steelhead. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

Michigan based fishing shows are boring. When it comes to steelhead or salmon, same old thing as far as location. PM, Big Man or the MO, always the same rivers. It was actually refreshing to see the MOOD episode with Neuman on the Au Sable, only reason I actually watched. Most of the time, as soon as I see they're on the West side, I turn it.

With salmon, it's always flyfishing. Do a show on bobbers/skein, and mix it up. Go out into a harbor or one of the DRML's and shoot an episode. Watching guys zip bedders is as stale as the fish. If they just have to fish graveled fish, atleast chuck a rap or tot at them. Then, they're actually hitting. So much they could do with the Michigan salmon/steelhead scene, but always just do the same tired crap.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

ausable_steelhead said:


> Michigan based fishing shows are boring. When it comes to steelhead or salmon, same old thing as far as location. PM, Big Man or the MO, always the same rivers. It was actually refreshing to see the MOOD episode with Neuman on the Au Sable, only reason I actually watched. Most of the time, as soon as I see they're on the West side, I turn it.
> 
> With salmon, it's always flyfishing. Do a show on bobbers/skein, and mix it up. Go out into a harbor or one of the DRML's and shoot an episode. Watching guys zip bedders is as stale as the fish. If they just have to fish graveled fish, atleast chuck a rap or tot at them. Then, they're actually hitting. So much they could do with the Michigan salmon/steelhead scene, but always just do the same tired crap.


Be happy!

Why would you want your local rivers PIMPED on national television?


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

A lot of my favorite streams (trout and steelhead) have been getting pimped pretty hard the last few years by writers in this state. I've seen the pressure increase and at first it kind of bothered me. I got over it since I still seem to do pretty well. I don't own these rivers and streams so if others want to come enjoy them that is fine with me. 

I agree fishing fresh kings or chrome with bait, hardware would be a nice change of pace for some of these shows. If guys like Flip want to fly fish, then it would be awesome to see them strip some streamers or gaudy flys to pick off the few aggressive fish that will actually hit them. It seems all of the fly fishing shows I see on tv for salmon or steelhead are fishing gravel regardless of the Great Lakes or West coast. Oh well, everyone has their own way that they like to do it. C n D is what it is for salmon, the only difference is with the anglers. Some think most of the fish are actually biting, some are on the border and not sure, some know most fish are flossed and some just don't care. If I do see a show on salmon fishing the Great Lakes I usually watch because it is nice to see our state get some credit for the world class fisheries we have. Hell, I used to think I could catch biting kings on yarn flys...I hooked a lot of fish, gravel, holes, didn't matter. A lot were "fair hooked" around the mouth, it wasn't until I was told to look where the placement was of the hook that I realized I was just zipping the fish. Oh well, I guess for those couple years I honed my egg collecting skills and it is a valuable tool in getting loose King eggs. 

It is nice to see some of the more reputable guides in this state acknowledging what CnD fishing is for most salmon in upstream waters. If they took those stoneflies and nymphs so well then why do a lot of them fish hardware and bait in lower rivers when they could be chucking flies? :idea: 

Anyhow, I'm pretty much getting beyond the point of caring how people fish anymore, other than blatant snagging and ripping. I am satisfied with my methods. If you do happen to see me in the 1-2 days of my CnDing gravel a year next year come say hi.


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## Vicious Fishous (Sep 12, 2006)

Whoa! I didn't mean to start that awful debate. Sorry... Didn't even think about it like that when I posted. 

For the sake of chuck and duck. It catches fish(some unwillingly) I've used it warmer rivers for smallies, carp, suckers, walleye and panfish. Not to mention a bunch of trout. None of those fish were flossed. Can be a deadly presentation, and I think fighting fish on a fly rod is fun. It's Like a lindy rig, it's just when fishing for anadromous fishes, the leader length somehow becomes a double fly-ed force-feeding, fin catching 6' long. I'm not pointing fingers, cause I'm guilty of the same thing at somepoint during any given salmon run. Just would like to see a show or guide that explains it for what it is, or could potentially be. 
For the record(sake of our economy), it should still be called flyfishing so retailers can charge more $ for the gear. 
I'm not right or wrong, Just my 2 cents.
Pete

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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

Boozer said:


> Be happy!
> 
> Why would you want your local rivers PIMPED on national television?


Because having lots of people filling the hotels/lodges in Baldwin, Franfort, Traverse City, etc. is great for the State AND the fishery. More people targeting the "in river" fish, maybe the State lowers the charter boat captain limits and maybe the State thinks more seriously about managing the fishery to maximize the fish that end up back in the rivers.

I wish Michigan woudl focus much harder on developing a world class steelhead fishery that rivals BC. The Little Manistee, Platte and Manistee with its year round cold water tribs could sustain such a fishery. 

Yes, there would have to be gear and limit regs (not necessarily flies only regs but regs to sustain a blue ribbon steelhead fishery).

Why not plant more Skamania to create a summertime money making resource for the fishing tourism industry in Baldwin or Frankfort/Traverse City?

Why not go after that tourism money?


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Because having lots of people filling the hotels/lodges in Baldwin, Franfort, Traverse City, etc. is great for the State AND the fishery. More people targeting the "in river" fish, maybe the State lowers the charter boat captain limits and maybe the State thinks more seriously about managing the fishery to maximize the fish that end up back in the rivers.
> 
> I wish Michigan woudl focus much harder on developing a world class steelhead fishery that rivals BC. The Little Manistee, Platte and Manistee with its year round cold water tribs could sustain such a fishery.
> 
> ...


1) If it's really about helping the state, wouldn't they utilize a fishery that isn't already so widely used?

2) Why do we need a smaller limit for charter boats? You do realize we had TOO MANY Salmon a very short time ago and it caused issues, correct? Not to mention, there is a LOT less boats out in the big lake these days due to the economy and gas prices...

3) If they want to maximize the river fisheries more, they probably should have stocked a different strain of King Salmon, because the one they chose "on purpose" is notorious for staying in the Ocean the longest. Most people don't realize that...

4) I don't know about you, but in the last year, every single river I fished in West Michigan, it was 15+ fish days in my boat or the Friends boat I was in, (edit there was one or two tough days on the Mo later this Fall where we struggled to get 6-7 fish and a couple days where we just got up there and fished the last hour or two of light and just got 1-2 fish) I would say they are doing a pretty good job at managing our steelhead fishery. That would include PM, White, Mo, Big Man and all the rivers down here in my neck of the woods. I don't fish steelhead after mid-March either so those numbers didn't come from the most "popular" time to fish for them either. I can't speak for the real small rivers farther North or on the East side because I have no desire to fish them, just simply not a fan of small water, I like wide open places for the most part. If you aren't getting satisfactory numbers of steelhead in West Michigan these days, it's you, not the fishery. I think just about everyone here would agree with that...

5) As for Skams, it's not going to happen up North, don't even waste your time arguing about that. Not to mention, not everyone wants those fish, they are not native and the diversity of our fishery is one of its greatest attributes. Hence why you will never see them in any larger numbers up there. It does take away from the resident Trout fishing as well, those Skams will push the Residents out of the prime holding water, that doesn't bother me when it happens down here, but the guy who enjoys Trout fishing, it does...

6) As for creating a steelhead fishery like BC's, that makes me laugh "mainly because I would love for that too", we don't have the right forage to create 30+ pound steelhead in any real numbers anyway. However, the only thing that would EVER allow our steelhead to even think of getting that big would be having a lot less of them so more food is available, directly the opposite of what you want from the way I understand it.

7) I could care less if people go after tourism money, but people who actually drop money will not spend lots of money to go to crazy crowded places, they want a quality fishery and you can still have lots of people fishing but keep the crowds to a pleasing level by having a diverse fishery as it disperses people more. You realize how many people hate the Muskegon River now because what they have done to it? 75% of the boats you will see on it now are guides and they are so cut throat because there is too many of them, it's ruined the fishing in a lot of ways. Nobody wants that...

Truly not trying to be rude here, but your comments don't even make sense. We already have outstanding fisheries, the quality of fishing has nothing to do with any of these businesses struggling.

Real money does not and never will come from tourism, I would have thought the insanity of our previous Governor would have proved that. If communities like Baldwin want to do well, they need more than tourism, period. Tourism only works, when you have a solid economy, because the middle class can afford to go to places like Baldwin more, Baldwin already has all the tools for tourism to make money, they just need the economy to get better. That's the whole downside to a tourism based economy, it only works when the other aspects of the economy are at their best. What businesses in Michigan aren't struggling right now?

I really don't care they did a TV show on the PM, it doesn't bother me one bit, I was joking around when I said what I did to Ausable Steelhead. I would rather have my limbs cut off and fed to fire ants than ever step near Northwest Michigan during Salmon season. I am sure it will help with angler numbers there next Fall though, my buddy was complaining the other day about a show he did with one famous outdoor TV show host in the salt and how ever since, he can hardly find a place to fish on the water he used to guide all day and never see another person. Dozens of magazine articles prior to that never had any effect, one TV show and BAM! On the other hand, he did see quite an influx in clients too so sort of a double edged sword...

Heck, they will probly have to sell tickets and stand in line for an hour to get to fish the most popular stretches of gravel LOL


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## oldrank (Dec 5, 2006)

N I thought the deer management guys were the drama queens on this site... Just fish man.. who cares how you do it if your legal.... If your good enough to put a fly in a dying salmons mouth thats gonna end up rotting on the bank anyhow then more power to you.


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

Boozer said:


> 1) If it's really about helping the state, wouldn't they utilize a fishery that isn't already so widely used?
> 
> 2) Why do we need a smaller limit for charter boats? You do realize we had TOO MANY Salmon a very short time ago and it caused issues, correct? Not to mention, there is a LOT less boats out in the big lake these days due to the economy and gas prices...
> 
> ...


Boozer, I would like to see Baldwin and Traverse City become much more "on" the national fishing radar for my friends who have fly shops and hotels in those towns...as well as for the simple fact that other than agriculture, tourism is a very important facet of the Northern Michigan economy.

The Little Manistee, Platte and Pere Marquette are all cold enough for management as a destination steelhead fishery. 

I think it would be great. People spending money is a very good thing. Just ask your friend who owns the fly shop.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Boozer, I would like to see Baldwin and Traverse City become much more "on" the national fishing radar for my friends who have fly shops and hotels in those towns...as well as for the simple fact that other than agriculture, tourism is a very important facet of the Northern Michigan economy.
> 
> The Little Manistee, Platte and Pere Marquette are all cold enough for management as a destination steelhead fishery.
> 
> I think it would be great. People spending money is a very good thing. Just ask your friend who owns the fly shop.


Well, considering it was the guides who were the most instrumental in getting the Skamania strain stockings dropped up there, I would say they only have themselves to blame, if they feel a steelhead fishery is what they need to be "on" the national level.

Perhaps you should ask your "Friends" about that...

All the "big name" guides up there were against the Skamania program. As were just about every avid Trout fisherman that exists up there. They claimed they were out-competeing the LM's on gravel, destroying the gene pool, the list went on and on...

The Michigan DNR is also against them, they claim they are an inferior strain of steelhead and that the Little Manistee is the best of the two.

Like I said, those places don't need a year round steelhead fishery, to be pimped more or anything of the sorts, they need the Michigan economy "Nationwide Economy" to pick up, period. There is a LOT more to it than simply fishing, many of those hotels rely on golfing, hikers, snowmobilers, hunters, etc... etc... etc... and when the economy takes a dive, people don't go do that stuff as much. That is the problem of being a tourism based economy. Our ex Governor let so many good jobs leave our state is the root of the issue.

I do have to ask, how are they not already "destination steelhead fisheries"? You just stated some of the most well known steelhead fisheries in our state, in the Great Lakes and even Nationwide...

The PM gets too warm to be a good Skam fishery, the Little Man is where our LM stocks come from, so you can rule those two out...

I am all for anything within reason that helps out Michigan businesses or any USA businesses for that matter. I just don't think a Summer steelhead fishery up there will ever happen, nor would make them suddenly begin raking in all this cash. They have a Summer King Salmon fishery up there already, there are Skamania in many of those rivers, they have Resident Trout, they have darn good fisheries already.

The good guides will always be booked, the guys I look up to most, don't have business cards, websites and don't advertise, yet they are booked 1-2 years in advance. Fly shops are at the mercy of the economy, there is a Lot of competition out there, almost as much as the auto industry, but far less demand, the good ones, will survive...

My Friend who owns the fly shop would not say the fishery is what needs to be improved upon to improve his business, he would say it's the economy. I will add, I think he has everything he can handle and then some, between guiding on private water which nobody else has access too, a lot more knowledge and beter service than most shops out there and a very loyal clientele, he will survive. He also is located in a highly populated area, which is huge. Just like the rest of the good shops out there. The good shops, will survive, just like any other industry, the good ones profit, the bad ones go away...


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

On a side note, comparing BC to Michigan steelhead is like apples to oranges. Those are ocean fish...we have fish that live in giant lakes. Much more food out there for the few that grow larger than average. The west coast steelhead really aren't that much bigger on average than a healthy MI fish. I heard they do fight harder though.

From many people I've talked to that fish/ed out west they say Michigan has a better steelhead fishery numbers wise. I do still want to get out there an catch one though.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Trout King said:


> On a side note, comparing BC to Michigan steelhead is like apples to oranges. Those are ocean fish...we have fish that live in giant lakes. Much more food out there for the few that grow larger than average. The west coast steelhead really aren't that much bigger on average than a healthy MI fish. I heard they do fight harder though.
> 
> From many people I've talked to that fish/ed out west they say Michigan has a better steelhead fishery numbers wise. I do still want to get out there an catch one though.


There are watersheds in BC that on average, have much larger fish than we do, but the average PNW steelhead river, you would be correct...


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## FishMichv2 (Oct 18, 2004)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Boozer, I would like to see Baldwin and Traverse City become much more "on" the national fishing radar for my friends who have fly shops and hotels in those towns...as well as for the simple fact that other than agriculture, tourism is a very important facet of the Northern Michigan economy.
> 
> The Little Manistee, Platte and Pere Marquette are all cold enough for management as a destination steelhead fishery.
> 
> I think it would be great. People spending money is a very good thing. Just ask your friend who owns the fly shop.


am i the only one who thinks having the platte on the national fishing radar is the worst idea ever? could you imagine if the banks of the platte looked like the banks of the betsie in the fall? no thanks. call me selfish, but i like the sleeping bear/leelenau peninsula/traverse city area just the way it is. i wish all of the local businesses the best and i spend my money locally when i have the chance. a dream of mine is to move to the northwest part of the state sometime in my life(hopefully sooner than later) but it would pain me me to see the platte with the same traffic as the other rivers mentioned.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

FishMichv2 said:


> am i the only one who thinks having the platte on the national fishing radar is the worst idea ever? could you imagine if the banks of the platte looked like the banks of the betsie in the fall? no thanks. call me selfish, but i like the sleeping bear/leelenau peninsula/traverse city area just the way it is. i wish all of the local businesses the best and i spend my money locally when i have the chance. a dream of mine is to move to the northwest part of the state sometime in my life(hopefully sooner than later) but it would pain me me to see the platte with the same traffic as the other rivers mentioned.


Short term, it would help businesses struggling...

Long term, it would destroy the very reason people go there and you would be back to square one...

Anyway, done discussing what businesses in Northern Michigan need to survive, I try and give as many local businesses up there my money when I can, about all I can personally do for them. Just like them, I have to work hard for my money, there isn't a business owner that I know that doesn't agree, these days you simply have to work twice as hard to make half as much as we used to...


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

What is this "private" water you speak of if you dont mind.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

troutguy26 said:


> What is this "private" water you speak of if you dont mind.


Out East, not in Michigan...

I don't want to say anymore as to not take away from the Northern Michigan discussion here or take the focus off the WORLD CLASS fisheries of Northern Michigan and the guides who work on them...

Look at the photos of resident Brown Trout that are caught in Northern Michigan every Summer, look at the size of the Smallmouth Bass, you have Northern Pike, small stream Brookies, Carp on the flats of Lake Michigan, you have Summer runs of King Salmon and steelhead. Not to mention inland lakes full of Bluegill and Largemouth Bass. What the heck else could you ask for? I used to think they should stock more skams up there, but when you really think about it, there is really no need. I don't feel they are an inferior strain, I simply just don't think they are necessary and could actually take away from some of the other fisheries...


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks that all i wondered. And i agree fishing tourism is not the answer. Shutting down the prison didnt help and neither did granholm she was an idiot not to make this political. Economy needs to grow and effects every little thing up there from local builders to the restaurants. Im sure with our ice and snow season this year things are even worse missing snowmobile and ice fishing people but those numbers are down to cause not everyone can afford a sled these days or the money it takes to bring them up north for the weekend or hotel costs and gas costs just to go fishing.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Sorry this is way off-topic but I always wondered if guides have had their client "steal" their spots. What I mean is an individual gets guided a few times and learns as much as possible. Then next season the guided individual is in the same spots all geared up in his own boat and all the top notch tackle this time without the guide since he already learned as much as he can from the guide. Is this a common occurrence? Is this the reason for hiring a guide? I do have a buddy who guides but he often guides on private property so as not to interfere with the locals. He focuses on teaching techniques or getting hookups not on honey holes. Sorry to stray off topic its just something I have been curious about...


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

steely74 said:


> Sorry this is way off-topic but I always wondered if guides have had their client "steal" their spots. What I mean is an individual gets guided a few times and learns as much as possible. Then next season the guided individual is in the same spots all geared up in his own boat and all the top notch tackle this time without the guide since he already learned as much as he can from the guide. Is this a common occurrence? Is this the reason for hiring a guide? I do have a buddy who guides but he often guides on private property so as not to interfere with the locals. He focuses on teaching techniques or getting hookups not on honey holes. Sorry to stray off topic its just something I have been curious about...


Yeah, it most certainly happens...

Guides aren't dumb though and my guess, they may change their game plan in some ways if they think this is the case. The thing is though, fishing a river is so cut and dry, it's the techniques they may learn from the guide that would be the most valuable...

The good guides, it's not going to matter, they will always have more knowledge and something in their back pocket. You can't go learn 10+ years of experience in a handful of guided trips...


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

Boozer, they really don't have to name rivers. I mean, I guess that's the point in a way, but they could just say "NE steelhead " or something. The AS is the obvious larger river, but still. The East side is a ghost town compared to this side. I'm not gonna lie man, I do like hopping around the river and not seeing hardly anyone. At the same time, the East side gets less upgrades and improvements, and the few bait shops left don't open early enough this time of year for the serious guys. I've put up 4 reports with pics and solid numbers from shore, and the only pressure was on the 40*, sunny days.

Trout King, I used to do the same as you, go zing a fat loosie off the rocks for steelhead bait in the fall. Now I toss an x-rap at them instead, still gravel fish(not always), but they _are _hitting instead. I don't ask around up here much for eggs, because I can't stand the snaggers in this area.

I can't believe someone actually tried saying we should get a BC quality steelhead fishery here in MI. Not ever gonna happen. They get 25-30lb steelhead every year there, the pics you see almost don't look real. Imagine one of those beasts in our tribs!? Be pretty damn tough to get in.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Boozer said:


> Of course!
> 
> Many guides can tell when this is the case though and regardless of what they say, I know they guide those individuals accordingly...


NICE! :coolgleam I knew a guy who hired a guide on the St.Jo to pretty much learn his holes. Lets just say I do not fish with this individual very much anymore LOL :lol:. Now he can show off to his buddy with the boat how great of a fisherman he is since he knows some good holes LOL.

IMO the pursuit and challenge is just as important as the catch. I love fishing new places trying to figure them out even if I don't do too well. Everyone is different and have their own ideas of a good day on the water.

As far as BC or the PNW is concerned people say a fish or 2 a day is a good day. They may get bigger fish overall but I don't think the average guy gets the numbers we do in the Great Lakes.


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## jerrob (Aug 6, 2011)

steely74 said:


> Sorry this is way off-topic but I always wondered if guides have had their client "steal" their spots. What I mean is an individual gets guided a few times and learns as much as possible. Then next season the guided individual is in the same spots all geared up in his own boat and all the top notch tackle this time without the guide since he already learned as much as he can from the guide. Is this a common occurrence? Is this the reason for hiring a guide? I do have a buddy who guides but he often guides on private property so as not to interfere with the locals. He focuses on teaching techniques or getting hookups not on honey holes. Sorry to stray off topic its just something I have been curious about...


I use two guides who are both members on this site, asked the both if that ever happens, and their replies were, " it's happened". One of them elaborated a little more that he put a guy on a double digit day only to find the guy there at first light the next day when he returned with another customer. What a dick! I understand no one owns the river, but that seems pretty damn unethical to me. He seemed to take it with a grain of salt though.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

jerrob said:


> I use two guides who are both members on this site, asked the both if that ever happens, and their replies were, " it's happened". One of them elaborated a little more that he put a guy on a double digit day only to find the guy there at first light the next day when he returned with another customer. What a dick! I understand no one owns the river, but that seems pretty damn unethical to me. He seemed to take it with a grain of salt though.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I guess it comes with the territory. The way he handled it though, shows his professionalism. I am sure he still provided a good trip for his client in that type of situation. Just as Boozer said a guide must have a back pocket full of backup plans and be ready for any situation.


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## jerrob (Aug 6, 2011)

You bet 74, both of these guys are 100% pro. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

jerrob said:


> You bet 74, both of these guys are 100% pro.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I thought you just bought a boat? You have hired both Getting Bit and Hutchins' recently, right? 

Am I missing something here?


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

I have never fished for salmon or steelhead on a boat. That's one reason I think it would be fun getting a guide. Pinning a big river from the back of a boat sounds like a blast!


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## jerrob (Aug 6, 2011)

Treven said:


> I thought you just bought a boat? You have hired both Getting Bit and Hutchins' recently, right?
> 
> Am I missing something here?


yes, i've recently bought a drift boat, and yes, i've hired both of these guides. Not sure what your missing tho. If your suggesting what it sounds like, call them and ask treven.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## muskegonriverguide (Feb 28, 2007)

steely74 said:


> Sorry this is way off-topic but I always wondered if guides have had their client "steal" their spots. What I mean is an individual gets guided a few times and learns as much as possible. Then next season the guided individual is in the same spots all geared up in his own boat and all the top notch tackle this time without the guide since he already learned as much as he can from the guide. Is this a common occurrence? Is this the reason for hiring a guide? I do have a buddy who guides but he often guides on private property so as not to interfere with the locals. He focuses on teaching techniques or getting hookups not on honey holes. Sorry to stray off topic its just something I have been curious about...


It's happened enough you can usually see them coming from a mile away. They usually give themselves away by being a little too certain of what method they want to fish and where to fish it. Or saying things like, "I've never fished the river from a boat before" completely unprovoked. The best of all time is when you know they have a boat, you see them on the water regularly and call them out on it when they try to book a trip, the #1 response, "I'm not here enough to be a threat", #2 "there's plenty of other guides that will take my money" good stuff!!:lol:


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

If the state wants to improve fishing opportunties and thus local economies, they should look at a spring run King. To have a fishery that would rival B.C. your going to have to alter the weather in Michigan, just too cold of an environment, not to mention the lack of fertility in the Great lakes/Tribs. I personnaly do not believe it's the states responsibility to cater to individual business plans. 

As for hooking fish on the mouth with yarn, well your not fishing yarn correctly, few people know how to fish it in it's most effective manor, and I'm glad for that! I have owned a river boat for over twenty years, I have never - nor would I ever of hired a guide to improve the learning curve, that's the most fun aspect for me is learning new water.


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## fishinDon (May 23, 2002)

I read this entire thread and I'm left with only one question - would CnD be illegal if there were a leader length restriction? 

I am not stiring the pot, I'm honestly asking because I've never fished CnD in my life. 

Thx,
Don


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

fishinDon said:


> I read this entire thread and I'm left with only one question - would CnD be illegal if there were a leader length restriction?
> 
> I am not stiring the pot, I'm honestly asking because I've never fished CnD in my life.
> 
> ...


Of course it would be legal, if you do it right, there shouldn't be more than 3' of lead...

It's not the rig, it's the user...


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## fishinDon (May 23, 2002)

Boozer said:


> Of course it would be legal, if you do it right, there shouldn't be more than 3' of lead...
> 
> It's not the rig, it's the user...


Got it, like I said, never fished CnD, so I don't really understand the rig.

The upcoming coldwater committee agenda includes a presentation on leader length restrictions so I was curious if a potential restriction would apply to CnD.

Thx,
Don


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

FYI I wasn't referring to Jerrob it was more in reference to Boozer's post about his guide buddy. Even though Jerrob said Indiana's fishery sucks


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

fishinDon said:


> Got it, like I said, never fished CnD, so I don't really understand the rig.
> 
> The upcoming coldwater committee agenda includes a presentation on leader length restrictions so I was curious if a potential restriction would apply to CnD.
> 
> ...


The only way it would is...

Depending on how the law was written, so lets say from the swivel closest to your weight you had 3' to your first fly, if you wanted to run a dropper fly off that lets say 18" as long as the angler was fishing appropriately, it would be perfectly fine as far as ethics are concerned, if you tried to make that illegal, you would seriously rile people up...

Also, what about leader lengths off sink tips, floating fly lines so on and so forth... They are going to have long leads, heck I regularly run 13' leaders off the end of floating lines when fishing poppers for smallies, there is nothing wrong with that, so you would have to be careful to not exclude stuff like that...

Also, what about fishing wobble glos or back bouncing skein where leads are normally a little longer. It's not uncommon for me to run a 5' leader when back bouncing skein, I am not tight lining fish.

My blunt opinion, guys are going to floss regardless if you make a new rule or not and I personally am against any changes to these laws as the only ones it will effect are the guys who wouldn't be purposely lining anyway. If you do it right, the presentation should be pretty much down and across and it's tough to floss fish that way.

I can take a 2' leader and floss fish all day long off gravel. So what good does a leader length law do?

Let me give you an example of one SENSELESS law here about 100 yards from my house. The mouth of Townsend Creek here on Lake Chapin/St. Joseph River. They apparently in an effort to stop snagging here, made it to where you cannot use a treble hook or any hook with a very wide gap. Their way of thinking was, it would stop snagging, but I can tell you right now, the guys who want to snag there, don't use treble hooks, they use 3' leaders and have one guy walk around to get the fish swimming up and down the narrow trough, in the end they floss them one after another and it's more efficient than snagging, not to mention, there is nothing the CO's can do about it. All this worthless law did was make it to where a guy likes me who likes to strip big streamers in the Fall for BITERS, can't fish there legally with large streamers stripped a foot under the surface. Heck, the whole place has filled in so bad anyway, hardly any fish hold there anymore anyway...

My blunt opinion, I say leave the crap alone, the only people these laws will screw over are the honest ones...


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## fishinDon (May 23, 2002)

Boozer said:


> The only way it would is...
> 
> Depending on how the law was written, so lets say from the swivel closest to your weight you had 3' to your first fly, if you wanted to run a dropper fly off that lets say 18" as long as the angler was fishing appropriately, it would be perfectly fine as far as ethics are concerned, if you tried to make that illegal, you would seriously rile people up...
> 
> ...


We have the same single pointed hook/point to shank gap restriction on my local river at the mouth. Quite a few people are still snagging...maybe it used to be worse, not sure, the law has been on the books longer than I have lived here.

I do know that it prevents me from flipping a spinner (unless I want to tear apart the rig and redo it with a single), so I care for that aspect.

Thanks Kory for the explanation of CnD. 
Don


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

fishinDon said:


> We have the same single pointed hook/point to shank gap restriction on my local river at the mouth. Quite a few people are still snagging...maybe it used to be worse, not sure, the law has been on the books longer than I have lived here.
> 
> I do know that it prevents me from flipping a spinner (unless I want to tear apart the rig and redo it with a single), so I care for that aspect.
> 
> ...


This law here at Townsend Creek was put in place less than 5 years ago. I can tell you right now, it's pointless...


You can't even toss a spinner with a single hook as any hook that would work, would have too wide of a gap. I can't fish a 1/0 Clouser streamer or other similar patterns within 100' of the mouth, which depending on the CO, the mouth is in ten different places.

It's absolutely ridiculous... Yet some famed guide from Newaygo can come down here and tight line skams and release them to die all day long, but a guy who wants to fish legit is punished for wanting to use a method that makes fish BITE...

As for chuck & duck fishing, it's simply bottom bouncing with a fly rod, that's it...

Walking spawn is going to fall under the same category and when you walk skein, it's standard to use a 3'-5' lead, without the aid of floaters as it's just raw skein, a longer lead is very helpful at times to keep everything off the bottom. So if you were to put a say 3' leader length restriction in place, it would screw the guys on the big rivers who are ethically walking skein.

My worries are, these committees will forget there is more to steelhead fishing than the flies only section of the PM or the spawning gravel of the "famed" Northwest Michigan steelhead rivers....


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

jerrob said:


> yes, i've recently bought a drift boat, and yes, i've hired both of these guides. Not sure what your missing tho. If your suggesting what it sounds like, call them and ask treven.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Why would I need to call and ask them when you respond quite frequently on here?


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

Boozer said:


> My blunt opinion, I say leave the crap alone, the only people these laws will screw over are the honest ones...


I agree with this. I fish the same area as Don, only for steelhead. We have single hook only, 3/8" gap rules in place. I agree with it on the one river, the Bear in Petoskey, but it really ****'s you on the Boyne. I still see tons of yarn wrapped trebs in the fall regardless, but I hate that the hook restriction makes casting plugs illegal; even though you can absolutely tear them up this way.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

ausable_steelhead said:


> I agree with this. I fish the same area as Don, only for steelhead. We have single hook only, 3/8" gap rules in place. I agree with it on the one river, the Bear in Petoskey, but it really ****'s you on the Boyne. I still see tons of yarn wrapped trebs in the fall regardless, but I hate that the hook restriction makes casting plugs illegal; even though you can absolutely tear them up this way.


Exactly, it only effects the honest ones...

Just like if they banned hand guns, only the thugs would have them...


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## HURONFLY (Aug 12, 2007)

Instead of leader length restrictions why not quadruple the fines for snagging.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

HURONFLY said:


> Instead of leader length restrictions why not quadruple the fines for snagging.


We have a winner!


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Treven said:


> Why would I need to call and ask them when you respond quite frequently on here?


Jerrob is a pretty stand up guy i dought thats why he bought a boat. Plus me and him have talked steelhead quite a bit thru pm so dont worry he has alot of spots to go beside the ones a guide has brought him to.


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## jerrob (Aug 6, 2011)

Treven said:


> Why would I need to call and ask them when you respond quite frequently on here?


I think that's the reason you should call them. If your gonna make indirect accusations about someone you've never met, I doubt you would take me at my word. You could pm them, call them, book a trip with them. If ya do, tell'em I sent ya, maybe they'll knock a little $ off my next trip.Good luck Dude.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

I'd much rather take our fishery than the PNW. 

We don't deal with seals, commercial nets, tribal nets, or emergency river closures. 

I'm quite content with the fishery here.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Boozer, I would like to see Baldwin and Traverse City become much more "on" the national fishing radar for my friends who have fly shops and hotels in those towns...as well as for the simple fact that other than agriculture, tourism is a very important facet of the Northern Michigan economy.
> 
> The Little Manistee, Platte and Pere Marquette are all cold enough for management as a destination steelhead fishery.
> 
> I think it would be great. People spending money is a very good thing. Just ask your friend who owns the fly shop.


$41,000 in 2 years between 6 of us has left the Baldwin and Scottville area. I will salute tomorrow as I drive through.


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

diztortion said:


> I'd much rather take our fishery than the PNW.
> 
> We don't deal with seals, commercial nets, tribal nets, or emergency river closures.
> 
> I'm quite content with the fishery here.


Since when were the commercial and tribal nets pulled in Lake MI?


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

Treven said:


> Since when were the commercial and tribal nets pulled in Lake MI?


Since when were the commercial and tribal nets after steelhead?


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

jerrob said:


> I think that's the reason you should call them. If your gonna make indirect accusations about someone you've never met, I doubt you would take me at my word. You could pm them, call them, book a trip with them. If ya do, tell'em I sent ya, maybe they'll knock a little $ off my next trip.Good luck Dude.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


It is, what it is. I don't need to meet you. Justify yourself however you wish. I merely find the situation ironic and entertaining. Good luck to you as well, "Dude."


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

I clicked on this thread because I wanted to know what a Flip Pallot was. I guess "it's" a fly fisherman. LOL :lol:


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Well i sure hate to see how youd judge me after i take a trip with a guide on water ive been on fishing and hunting since i was little. Does it mean i cant go back after the trip?


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Ranger Ray said:


> $41,000 in 2 years between 6 of us has left the Baldwin and Scottville area. I will salute tomorrow as I drive through.


Because of special regulations? (Flies Only)


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

diztortion said:


> Since when were the commercial and tribal nets after steelhead?


 
Your right, what do I know? The salmon and steelhead never get caught in them in any numbers... my bad.


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

troutguy26 said:


> Well i sure hate to see how youd judge me after i take a trip with a guide on water ive been on fishing and hunting since i was little. Does it mean i cant go back after the trip?


Whatever makes you warm and fuzzy, guy.


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

Ranger Ray said:


> $41,000 in 2 years between 6 of us has left the Baldwin and Scottville area. I will salute tomorrow as I drive through.


So the 6 of you guys were spending a little over $3400 a year the past 2 years, is what you are getting at?

And why did the 6 of you leave? Work?

I'm having trouble understanding your point.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Boozer said:


> Because of special regulations? (Flies Only)


Yes.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Has anyone spoken to the Township that Baldwin resides in or the Village of Baldwin Board Members?

The reason I ask is, they have the right to file a grievance to the State of Michigan to have these laws over-turned.

There is no guarantee it will be over-turned, but if they feel their economy has taken a hit due to these law changes and especially considering the fact that apparently fisheries biologists declared no real reasoning for these law changes, it's very likely something would be done.

If what you say is true Ranger, for a community like Baldwin and it's local businesses, that's quite a hit.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Treven said:


> So the 6 of you guys were spending a little over $3400 a year the past 2 years, is what you are getting at?
> 
> And why did the 6 of you leave? Work?
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding your point.


Perhaps a quick read between the lines

We also used to spend a fortune fishing the area, mostly the PM, but do to the arrogance and sense of entitlement of MANY guides that could give a crap about the "casual" angler and would rather see a fence around "their little treasure", we said screw it! 

I guess they can have it, flies only (and might as well call it Guides Only during the height of the season)

So they cut down some trees, preach the bible, but I will say that it's mostly for their own interest. All about the money....

Word's out so, just like the browns in New York


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Treven said:


> It is, what it is. I don't need to meet you. Justify yourself however you wish. I merely find the situation ironic and entertaining. Good luck to you as well, "Dude."


Jerrob has a drift boat that he usually uses in completely different areas than where I like to fish. 

The one time he was planning to be in an area closer to where I fish, he actually sent me an e-mail asking if I was guiding on that particular day. He said if I was, he was going to pick another stretch of river. 

That was just pure class on his part, not too mention the guy is as big a catch and release guy as you'll ever meet.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

thousandcasts said:


> Jerrob has a drift boat that he usually uses in completely different areas than where I like to fish.
> 
> The one time he was planning to be in an area closer to where I fish, he actually sent me an e-mail asking if I was guiding on that particular day. He said if I was, he was going to pick another stretch of river.
> 
> That was just pure class on his part, not too mention the guy is as big a catch and release guy as you'll ever meet.


BTW, I would never throw you into that category! We're old school. My reference was toward the guys working the upper


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Don't let Hutch fool you, his favorite water is the flies only section of the PM during Salmon season. Since he cannot keep fish there, he just collects the goods and moves on...










:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## samsteel (Oct 6, 2008)

Boozer said:


> Don't let Hutch fool you, his favorite water is the flies only section of the PM during Salmon season. Since he cannot keep fish there, he just collects the goods and moves on...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


everytime I see that picture, I dry heave for about 5 minutes.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

No decent guide is going to be a one trick pony. If one hole is being fished you go on to the next. On the pm if you only fish the major holes some days you wont fish. While I like to be the first to fish a hole I know on most days I will be behind someone in many places.


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

Shoeman said:


> Perhaps a quick read between the lines
> 
> We also used to spend a fortune fishing the area, mostly the PM, but do to the arrogance and sense of entitlement of MANY guides that could give a crap about the "casual" angler and would rather see a fence around "their little treasure", we said screw it!
> 
> ...


I don't disagree, I just don't fish that section.


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

thousandcasts said:


> Jerrob has a drift boat that he usually uses in completely different areas than where I like to fish.
> 
> The one time he was planning to be in an area closer to where I fish, he actually sent me an e-mail asking if I was guiding on that particular day. He said if I was, he was going to pick another stretch of river.
> 
> That was just pure class on his part, not too mention the guy is as big a catch and release guy as you'll ever meet.


Re-read what you typed above. The first three sentences contradict each other completely. And pure class? Who wants to fish behind a guide that showed them the ropes? Especially when you are in a motorized boat and he's in a drift boat. Really?

Let me know how you feel about situations like these in another 10 years of guiding. The easy score generation that relies on paying guides to learn the water they plan to frequent and gleaning the information on how to fish off the internet will end up being counter-productive. 

Mark my words.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Treven said:


> Re-read what you typed above. The first three sentences contradict each other completely. And pure class? Who wants to fish behind a guide that showed them the ropes? Especially when you are in a motorized boat and he's in a drift boat. Really?
> 
> Let me know how you feel about situations like these in another 10 years of guiding. The easy score generation that relies on paying guides to learn the water they plan to frequent and gleaning the information on how to fish off the internet will end up being counter-productive.
> 
> Mark my words.


You're absolutely entitled to think what you want to think and I certainly respect your opinion, but in this instance and in regard to this one individual, you're wrong. 

Look, I completely understand the point you're making, I get it, but you're making those comments at the wrong guy. Jerrob is not only a fine angler, but he cares a hell of a lot more about our resource than most guys who "say" they do.


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## Jones (Mar 5, 2010)

muskegonriverguide said:


> It's happened enough you can usually see them coming from a mile away. They usually give themselves away by being a little too certain of what method they want to fish and where to fish it. Or saying things like, "I've never fished the river from a boat before" completely unprovoked. The best of all time is when you know they have a boat, you see them on the water regularly and call them out on it when they try to book a trip, the #1 response, "I'm not here enough to be a threat", #2 "there's plenty of other guides that will take my money" good stuff!!:lol:



F*ck guides. I sincerely hope that their so-called clients turn around the next day and fish the same spots. I mean, that's why they pay the big bucks, right? I'm sure they are not paying to listen to a river guide wax philosophic about democracy and the free market economy. As far as I'm concerned, they are entitled to pimp every inch of water that was fished for the small sum of 3-4 hundred dollars!

The entitlement attitude among guides is ruining elements of the river fishing experience in Michigan. We see it in the special interest regs, the lack of respect for other anglers, and most of all, the lack of respect for the resource.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Thats the fun & challenge!... following your buddy & his crew.... and catchin fish behind em!.... nothin like it!....

But hiring guides to learn water... that's iether lazy or s____y! But then again those are the guys that leave the hole full of fish! Maybe it's time for a no competition clause for guides & their clients!


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

When I guided, many of my previous clients fished the same spots we had fished together. Unless you fish everyday, the guide is going to put bigger numbers up because of knowing where the fish have moved in the system and what is working best anyway. If you guide, and seeing past clients fish the same spots bothers you, you're in the wrong business. As one pimp said to the other, "your whore is in my whore's spot."


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## Jones (Mar 5, 2010)

Trout King said:


> Anyhow, I'm pretty much getting beyond the point of caring how people fish anymore, other than blatant snagging and ripping. I am satisfied with my methods. If you do happen to see me in the 1-2 days of my CnDing gravel a year next year come say hi.


Listen to you. First you say, "I'm pretty much getting beyond the point of caring how people fish anymore, other than blatant snagging and ripping." Then 1 sentence later, we get this gem. "If you do happen to see me in the 1-2 days of my CnDing gravel a year next year come say hi".

So you care about others blatantly snagging, but when it serves your purpose, you change your tune and its okay!? You're just as bad as the guides who complain about people pimping their spots.


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Jones said:


> F*ck guides. I sincerely hope that their so-called clients turn around the next day and fish the same spots. I mean, that's why they pay the big bucks, right? I'm sure they are not paying to listen to a river guide wax philosophic about democracy and the free market economy. As far as I'm concerned, they are entitled to pimp every inch of water that was fished for the small sum of 3-4 hundred dollars!
> 
> The entitlement attitude among guides is ruining elements of the river fishing experience in Michigan. We see it in the special interest regs, the lack of respect for other anglers, and most of all, the lack of respect for the resource.


Classifying all guides into one catagory is senseless to say the least. So many of them are very good guys that do alot for the resources you want to pimp. These individuals are involved in more committes, boards and private org that better this state in more ways than you can think but judging by your attitude your mind probaly wont see this. Yes i agree and so do respectable guides that their are individuals out there that act totally inappropriate and as anything in life it only takes a few bad apples. One example of a guide and individual that has done more than more than most just sitting here making comments is kelly neuman. Look at what that guy has done to help in the au sable along with many others doing the same to their home waters. Your comments should be removed from here.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

troutguy26 said:


> Classifying all guides into one catagory is senseless to say the least. So many of them are very good guys that do alot for the resources you want to pimp. These individuals are involved in more committes, boards and private org that better this state in more ways than you can think but judging by your attitude your mind probaly wont see this. Yes i agree and so do respectable guides that their are individuals out there that act totally inappropriate and as anything in life it only takes a few bad apples. One example of a guide and individual that has done more than more than most just sitting here making comments is kelly neuman. Look at what that guy has done to help in the au sable along with many others doing the same to their home waters. Your comments should be removed from here.


I have to agree, from river clean ups to committees and such, all in all the fish and fishing are better off with quality guides.


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Treven said:


> Re-read what you typed above. The first three sentences contradict each other completely. And pure class? Who wants to fish behind a guide that showed them the ropes? Especially when you are in a motorized boat and he's in a drift boat. Really?
> 
> Let me know how you feel about situations like these in another 10 years of guiding. The easy score generation that relies on paying guides to learn the water they plan to frequent and gleaning the information on how to fish off the internet will end up being counter-productive.
> 
> Mark my words.


Dude if you dont get what has been said about jerrob i am sorry for you. Serious about that. I to do understand what you are saying but you in yourself are contradictary. He said if tcasts was guiding that spot on ONE instance he would not go there. So how is he gonna follow him in his drift boat and fish in his shadow when hes not gonna be there? Seems to me like your just picking for a fight and thats it. Sure some people will follow or show up cause thats the only reason they hired a guide and you cant stop that. But as said its not the case so do you need two out of two guides and an outsider that talks to him frequently (myself) before you beleive anything that has been said?


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## Jones (Mar 5, 2010)

troutguy26 said:


> Classifying all guides into one catagory is senseless to say the least. So many of them are very good guys that do alot for the resources you want to pimp. These individuals are involved in more committes, boards and private org that better this state in more ways than you can think but judging by your attitude your mind probaly wont see this. Yes i agree and so do respectable guides that their are individuals out there that act totally inappropriate and as anything in life it only takes a few bad apples. One example of a guide and individual that has done more than more than most just sitting here making comments is kelly neuman. Look at what that guy has done to help in the au sable along with many others doing the same to their home waters. Your comments should be removed from here.



But since you mentioned Kelly Nueman....wasn't Kelly Neuman the guy that was complaining earlier this year about some fellow with a jet boat on the Platte River? This is the same guy who guides out of 16/17 foot flat bottom with a prop, and hes complaining about a guy in a jet boat...isn't that hypocritical? Same guy?

Or is Kelly Neuman the guy that flosses fresh salmon on the upper and lower betsie in August and Sept (when they are still biting), all in the name of the almighty dollar? I wonder if his pimping of the betsie is directly correlated with the influx of anglers to the Betsie in the last 5 years. Is this the same guy?

The real heros are the guys who work regular jobs, but still bust their ass trying to clean up the river, make it accessible for others, etc. When guides start doing trips for free, and still remain committed to the resource for the sake of the resource itself, THEN you can tell me "I told you so".

P.S. Please make an attempt to improve your grammar and thought process so that we don't have to decrypt simple sentences.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Like it or not guiding is a part of the fishing community in Michigan. Michigan is where REAL giver guides do their business. Michigan has more rivers than all other states bordering Lake Michigan combined. Most of them guide on boats on big rivers. There is plenty of water up there. Most people laugh about "river guides" in other states bordering LM.


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Jones said:


> But since you mentioned Kelly Nueman....wasn't Kelly Neuman the guy that was complaining earlier this year about some fellow with a jet boat on the Platte River? This is the same guy who guides out of 16/17 foot flat bottom with a prop, and hes complaining about a guy in a jet boat...isn't that hypocritical? Same guy?
> 
> Or is Kelly Neuman the guy that flosses fresh salmon on the upper and lower betsie in August and Sept (when they are still biting), all in the name of the almighty dollar? I wonder if his pimping of the betsie is directly correlated with the influx of anglers to the Betsie in the last 5 years. Is this the same guy?
> 
> ...


You can mock my grammar thats cool man. But since when have the guides made their whole living off from it? You talk of the big guides and thats it. To say theres no little people out there that do work full time jobs, guide weekends and help the resources is rediculous. I dont understand the jet vs prop either is he chopping the fish up or is the other guy eroding the banks flying thru there at 40 mph?


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

troutguy26 said:


> Dude if you dont get what has been said about jerrob i am sorry for you. Serious about that. I to do understand what you are saying but you in yourself are contradictary. He said if tcasts was guiding that spot on ONE instance he would not go there. So how is he gonna follow him in his drift boat and fish in his shadow when hes not gonna be there? Seems to me like your just picking for a fight and thats it. Sure some people will follow or show up cause thats the only reason they hired a guide and you cant stop that. But as said its not the case so do you need two out of two guides and an outsider that talks to him frequently (myself) before you beleive anything that has been said?


 You're right. Fun and games, fun and games. "Ya caught me, ya caught the Tater." Can you explain the contradictory part again? Pleasssse? One more time? :lol:


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## Jones (Mar 5, 2010)

troutguy26 said:


> You can mock my grammar thats cool man. But since when have the guides made their whole living off from it? You talk of the big guides and thats it. To say theres no little people out there that do work full time jobs, guide weekends and help the resources is rediculous. I dont understand the jet vs prop either is he chopping the fish up or is the other guy eroding the banks flying thru there at 40 mph?


I wasn't mocking your grammar. I was making a sincere recommendation that I hoped you might consider. Would your customers (assuming you have a job) appreciate half *** efforts similar to the ones you seem to put into your posts?


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Treven said:


> You're right. Fun and games, fun and games. "Ya caught me, ya caught the Tater." Can you explain the contradictory part again? Pleasssse? One more time? :lol:


Hot dam ive been lookin for ya tater. I will explain again as long as you look up when say please


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Jones said:


> I wasn't mocking your grammar. I was making a sincere recommendation that I hoped you might consider. Would your customers (assuming you have a job) appreciate half *** efforts similar to the ones you seem to put into your posts?


Umm yes they think i do fine. Now jones you cant tell me youve never been with a guide? Maybe hang out with a couple from time to time? Ya know knock elbows.


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

thousandcasts said:


> You're absolutely entitled to think what you want to think and I certainly respect your opinion, but in this instance and in regard to this one individual, you're wrong.
> 
> Look, I completely understand the point you're making, I get it, but you're making those comments at the wrong guy. Jerrob is not only a fine angler, but he cares a hell of a lot more about our resource than most guys who "say" they do.


I guess this instance begs the question, why hire the guides then? I must be missing something major that has yet to be revealed from the previous posts made by him that I have had the pleasure of perusing on here.


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## Jones (Mar 5, 2010)

troutguy26 said:


> Umm yes they think i do fine. Now jones you cant tell me youve never been with a guide? Maybe hang out with a couple from time to time? Ya know knock elbows.


No, I've never been with a guide (although i hear some of them are an easy lay).


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

troutguy26 said:


> Hot dam ive been lookin for ya tater. *I will explain again as long as you look up when say please*


Huh?


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Jones you a betting kinda man? All in fun tho but seriously i love to gamble and am willing to wager a bet if you are game.


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Let me know bout the bet jones i got a brand new loomis sittin here im willin to put on the line in MY own name. Game?


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## Carpmaster (Apr 1, 2004)

Jones why don't you take a











and Treven I think you could use a 









.


Holy CRAP!!!!


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## J-Lee (Jul 11, 2000)

Amen Carpmaster!


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

Very well spoken Carpmassah.


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

:lol: you guys really are entertaining, love it. This is why I still post from time to time :evil:


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## Carpmaster (Apr 1, 2004)

Treven said:


> :lol: you guys really are entertaining, love it. This is why I still post from time to time :evil:


Just sayin you got grumpy and off topic.....typical of the symptoms........:chillin:


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## Treven (Feb 21, 2006)

People need a little honesty these days, its good for them. All this kumbaya BS is terrible.


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## Jones (Mar 5, 2010)

Treven said:


> People need a little honesty these days, its good for them. All this kumbaya BS is terrible.


There's an old saying , "The nail that sticks out gets pounded down".


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Jones said:


> Listen to you. First you say, "I'm pretty much getting beyond the point of caring how people fish anymore, other than blatant snagging and ripping." Then 1 sentence later, we get this gem. "If you do happen to see me in the 1-2 days of my CnDing gravel a year next year come say hi".
> 
> So you care about others blatantly snagging, but when it serves your purpose, you change your tune and its okay!? You're just as bad as the guides who complain about people pimping their spots.


Why should I care how others fish? I fish to enjoy myself and my immediate company.

Damn straight I get my lose eggs every year. I don't rip on them with treble hooks and anchor rope. They see to prefer the brown cricket pattern :lol:. It does serve a purpose, taking a couple hens every fall guarantees I have enough eggs to last through the winter and in to the next fall so I can use them on biting salmon. Of course nobody else would do such a thing! I know exactly what I'm doing and am honest about it. I don't really think that it is blatant ripping and snagging.

Looking at your other posts you seem to have some major anger issues with guides and other things here in Michigan...well guess what, it is what it is and it's here to stay. Loosen up a bit, it's a hobby and supposed to be enjoyable. Don't worry so much about others... you'll feel a lot better; I tend to have to tell the kindergarteners I teach the same thing.


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## Jones (Mar 5, 2010)

Trout King said:


> Why should I care how others fish? I fish to enjoy myself and my immediate company.
> 
> Damn straight I get my lose eggs every year. I don't rip on them with treble hooks and anchor rope. They see to prefer the brown cricket pattern :lol:. It does serve a purpose, taking a couple hens every fall guarantees I have enough eggs to last through the winter and in to the next fall so I can use them on biting salmon. Of course nobody else would do such a thing! I know exactly what I'm doing and am honest about it. I don't really think that it is blatant ripping and snagging.
> 
> Looking at your other posts you seem to have some major anger issues with guides and other things here in Michigan...well guess what, it is what it is and it's here to stay. Loosen up a bit, it's a hobby and supposed to be enjoyable. Don't worry so much about others... you'll feel a lot better; I tend to have to tell the kindergarteners I teach the same thing.


Trout King, I'm glad you are teaching kindergarteners because your logic and reasoning ability is clearly fit for kids at that level.

"I know exactly what I'm doing and am honest about it. I don't really think that it is blatant ripping and snagging."

How is your lining any different the Billy Bob's treble hook? In both instances, the law is being violated and a fish is being illegally harvested (and Billy Bob at least eats them). Your view on what is "blatant snagging" is purely subjective. 

The is the law. If you want to break the rules, that's your individual choice. Just please be sympathetic when someone sneaks on your land and poaches a nice buck, or keeps 20 browns from your favorite stream. You're not so different after all.


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Treven said:


> Huh?


Fun and games fun and games. You quoted a comdeian i said something from a song


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Treven said:


> People need a little honesty these days, its good for them. All this kumbaya BS is terrible.


I agree treven honesty can be good for people as long the people trying to be honest are sincere and not hypocrits.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Jones said:


> There's an old saying , "The nail that sticks out gets pounded down".


Then you need to get a new alias to hide behind, Ben. I mean, when you make Screech from Saved By The Bell seem like a bad a**, then the last thing you should be doing is running the same routine, while hiding behind a keyboard, under some anonymous screen name where some people have figured out who you are, and anyone could simply look at your FB page and realize that one of Trout King's kindergartner's could kick the **** out of you with little or no effort. 

Now, you can knock guides all you want and I could care less--it comes with the territory. However, speaking for myself and myself only, my time involved with many things involving the resource goes back many years--long before I was guiding. Over the course of, let's say 10 years, I've taken days off work to go to this meeting, that NRC meeting, this river clean up, that riverwatch...the list goes on and on. 

Not one single time did I see YOU, Ben, at any of these things...none. 

Last spring you were bashing guys who are out killing hens, yet this fall you were right there on FB begging anyone who would listen for...what was that...oh yeah, EGGS. 

Some of the guys you fish with are guides--do I need to name names or should we play a game of "let's go over to Ben's FB page and count the # of guides on his friends list?" Do you do the same guide bashing when you're out in their boats? 

Yes, it's all fun and games isn't it? If someone is so and so and they get into guiding, then it's high fives, he's the man and yay for so and so. If Hutch gets into guiding, he's a joke, **** him and let's give him funny little nicknames like "hundred dollar Hutch." You think I don't know where that stuff is coming from? Meanwhile, Hundred Dollar Hutch is still putting his time in at many meetings, organizing river clean ups, etc and not one of you...including the guides you hang out with, are anywhere to be found or they're all smiles to my face when they see me out on the water. 

Anyone is welcome to speak their peace with me and I'm much more inclined to respect their position when they're not afraid to put a name and a face to their opinion. If they want to say I'm a "joke," or **** you, Hutch, then at least they have the balls to do so to my face--and that goes a long way with me. 

The real joke is when someone hides behind some alias and lips off on an internet message board when in reality, they'd be pissing down their leg like a scared puppy if someone ever confronted them on it. 

Believe it or not, some people guide because they love being out on the water and they can appreciate that time on the water because they've spent over 20 years giving their life away to some industry or company that doesn't care, doesn't give a hoot and you're easily replaceable. As such, it's more about just loving life and not so much about "the paycheck" as some put it. I fall into that category--so you know what, I'm happy, my clients are happy, my kids are happy and if "Ben" isn't happy then...oh well. 

Anyone can say anything they want about me and it doesn't change my perspective or approach--that is, I'm not out there acting like I own the water, I'm respectful to anyone out fishing and try to stay out of their way and I simply just have fun and try to enjoy the one life I've been given. If someone else takes issue with that, then that's their problem not mine. If I was out low holing people or making it a point to mess up their fishing, then they'd have a legitimate complaint. As it is, anyone who's ever been in the boat with me knows I just do my own thing and I'm mindful of paying attention and not intruding on where other people are fishing. 

As one gets older they realize that it's not about the money, it's not about the "name," and it's not about being one of the "cool kids." Life has a way of reminding a person that there are things far more important than any of that. When you have that epiphany, you simply want to be happy and simply want to enjoy what time you do have on this earth. 

It took me until age 40 to realize what it is that makes me happy. As a result, other people get to share in the fact that "hundred dollar Hutch" is actually a very happy and content Hutch. 

If you have an issue with that and would like to discuss that with me, I'd be more than happy to listen. However, I'll listen to "Ben," not "Jones." Drop the internet tough guy schtick and actually put a name and face to any complaints you might have.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Hutch dont hold back, tell us how you realy feel! Seriously, well writen response!


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Didn't "Hundred Dollar Hutch" come from your old job, when you worked for that escort service for the elderly? :lol:


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

Jones said:


> Trout King, I'm glad you are teaching kindergarteners because your logic and reasoning ability is clearly fit for kids at that level.
> 
> "I know exactly what I'm doing and am honest about it. I don't really think that it is blatant ripping and snagging."
> 
> ...


 Who was the one preaching about grammar? Spell check can only fix so much. What is the point in ripping on someone for grammar, when you are doing the same? Not everyone gets a Purdue ed-u-mic-ation, you could understand what he said, and it was MUCH better than plenty of other guys on here.


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

Jones said:


> The is the law. If you want to break the rules, that's your individual choice. Just please be sympathetic when someone sneaks on your land and poaches a nice buck, or keeps 20 browns from your favorite stream. You're not so different after all.


Not taking sides here or trying to justify anything but.
Whats illegal about drifting a brown cricket pattern INTO the mouth of a king? Nothing.Inside the mouth is legal. Ethical,not really. The right way to do it? Maybe maybe not. But it is legal weather you like it or not. Poaching deer and trout and snagging with trebles in anus and keeping them is defenitely illegal.
Not a very good analogy. Ben. :lol::lol::lol:


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

What hutch just wrote is the bottom line truth amen brother. And hiding behind a computer is silly and people were onto you long before i was so changing your post to imply something bout someone did nothing. First it said something about angie out west then went to the some guides are a easy lay. Musta felt the heat. And i do apoligize to all bout my grammer and writing i grew up on a farm not harvard but feel people can still get my point. Ps im alot easier to understnd in person lol.


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