# Asian Carp



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

The past few days there were articles in the Detroit papers regarding Asian Carp migrations based on DNA tracing. Todays paper had somewhat of a clarification regarding their findings. Apparently, the DNA traces were the result of fish market cleaning disposals and sewer systems flowing into the canal. The DNA was not directly from live fish passing the barriers but fish waste. The story also indicated there is a retail market for carp, apparently they are tasty. There is commercial netting going on.


----------



## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

Wonder if they are dumping eggs in with that waste .


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

Gordon Casey said:


> There is commercial netting going on.


Great news! If more nets are needed there are a bunch in Saginaw bay and Erie that are looking for fish to net. Win win for all


----------



## CrawlerHarness (Dec 9, 2017)

Gordon Casey said:


> The story also indicated there is a retail market for carp, apparently they are tasty.


Well....some people already eat carp and suckers, and others like Great Lakes - Lake Trout. So to each their own. Even though I haven't tried Asian carp......I think I am safe assuming they taste terrible.


----------



## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

CrawlerHarness said:


> Well....some people already eat carp and suckers, and others like Great Lakes - Lake Trout. So to each their own. Even though I haven't tried Asian carp......I think I am safe assuming they taste terrible.


I'm curious why you think that they would taste terrible? In my experience, many "trash fish" are really tasty. Sucker is the best Michigan fish I've tasted. I've even found amazing ways to prepare white bass. Bowfin (aka dogfish) is up there as a super meaty, white, boneless meat and common carp is really tasty as well (you do have to deal with the y bones on these fish and they're annoying). I heard there were chefs in Chicago area making amazing dishes with Asian carp. I'm guessing that common and Asian carp will be pretty similar. 

I'm not saying that you're wrong. I have no idea and of course taste is relative - prisoners once sued very successfully in the NE because they were being fed lobster regularly and it was considered "slave food." I'm just curious.

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## jono (Nov 2, 2011)

Having lived in Missouri and having suffered the slings and arrows of Asian carp, I can say that they are edible, but so bony that, out of a 10 # fish, there is only about a pound of meat that is comestible. They are filter feeders, so the’re not muddy tasting, but it’s kinda not worth the effort to try and eat them.


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

CrawlerHarness said:


> Well....some people already eat carp and suckers, and others like Great Lakes - Lake Trout. So to each their own. Even though I haven't tried Asian carp......I think I am safe assuming they taste terrible.


Are you bad mouthing....lake trout?? They one of my favored fish, I can pan fry them and you will never know it's a laker. Lakers get a bad reputation mostly from word of mouth, generation to generation. I understand the DNR is planting strain of fish that has less fat content.


----------



## CrawlerHarness (Dec 9, 2017)

I am bad mouthing Lake Trout. Bet you I can taste the different between brown trout and Lake trout if you pan fry it. Or Rainbow and Lake trout.


----------



## CrawlerHarness (Dec 9, 2017)

Macs13 said:


> I'm curious why you think that they would taste terrible? In my experience, many "trash fish" are really tasty. Sucker is the best Michigan fish I've tasted. I've even found amazing ways to prepare white bass. Bowfin (aka dogfish) is up there as a super meaty, white, boneless meat and common carp is really tasty as well (you do have to deal with the y bones on these fish and they're annoying). I heard there were chefs in Chicago area making amazing dishes with Asian carp. I'm guessing that common and Asian carp will be pretty similar.
> 
> I'm not saying that you're wrong. I have no idea and of course taste is relative - prisoners once sued very successfully in the NE because they were being fed lobster regularly and it was considered "slave food." I'm just curious.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS998 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Always good to have people who like to eat carp and sucker. Leaves more Salmon and Walleye for me to catch and eat. 

The taste is bad because I can smell fish when I bring the fork to my mouth. Walleye, perch, Salmon, and brown trout don't carry that smell.


----------



## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

CrawlerHarness said:


> Always good to have people who like to eat carp and sucker. Leaves more Salmon and Walleye for me to catch and eat.
> 
> The taste is bad because I can smell fish when I bring the fork to my mouth. Walleye, perch, Salmon, and brown trout don't carry that smell.


Interesting. In my experience, carp is zero fishiness. Same for sucker (which is actually sweet... very crab-like). To each his own. But don't worry, I love some perch and walleye as well. Lol.

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

CrawlerHarness said:


> I am bad mouthing Lake Trout. Bet you I can taste the different between brown trout and Lake trout if you pan fry it. Or Rainbow and Lake trout.


It's all about the spicing. I use salt, pepper, a dash of dill and granulated garlic. I don't ever bake them or grill them, just pan fry or deep fry. Agree, there are taste differences between all fish but whenever I cook them most people say "boy these taste good, what are they".


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

CrawlerHarness said:


> Always good to have people who like to eat carp and sucker. Leaves more Salmon and Walleye for me to catch and eat.
> 
> The taste is bad because I can smell fish when I bring the fork to my mouth. Walleye, perch, Salmon, and brown trout don't carry that smell.


You forgot about brook trout! For me, the best tasting fish out there. I don't eat fish a lot, maybe 1-2 times a month. I look for mild tasting, low fish odor and most of all firmness after cooking.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Gordon Casey said:


> Are you bad mouthing....lake trout?? They one of my favored fish, I can pan fry them and you will never know it's a laker. Lakers get a bad reputation mostly from word of mouth, generation to generation. I understand the DNR is planting strain of fish that has less fat content.


Well, that and the reality that at legal size in Lake Michigan, they remain on the do not consume list in the State's Fish Consumption Advisory due to their body burden contaminant levels...and, yes, the fillets are what is tested, not whole fish.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

The State of Illinois has been pouring money into an effort to generate a commercial fishery for Silver and Bighead carp for nearly a decade. Yet, they still have only achieved a VERY limited market.


----------



## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Gordon Casey said:


> It's all about the spicing. I use salt, pepper, a dash of dill and granulated garlic. I don't ever bake them or grill them, just pan fry or deep fry. Agree, there are taste differences between all fish but whenever I cook them most people say "boy these taste good, what are they".



Next time grill one without the skin

Soak in spicy Italian for an hour and grill both sides until brown. Almost lobster like texture and awesome flavor!


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> Well, that and the reality that at legal size in Lake Michigan, they remain on the do not consume list in the State's Fish Consumption Advisory due to their body burden contaminant levels...and, yes, the fillets are what is tested, not whole fish.


Don't know what the consumption guidance is for Huron or Superior lake trout. The State does limit eating just about every fish in the Great Lakes. All the general discussion on this site about eating walleye from Saginaw bay is concerning. Looks like people on here eat walleye multiple times weekly. There was a guy walking the Vets park rail handing out advisory information detailing eating limits...didn't pay attention. Maybe born can look at one of his fishing license rules and reg's handbooks, I think somewhere there are fish eating advisories. Interested in walleye taken from sag. bay and river.


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Shoeman said:


> Next time grill one without the skin
> 
> Soak in spicy Italian for an hour and grill both sides until brown. Almost lobster like texture and awesome flavor!


AH, a fan of the low rated, disrespected, lake trout. Can't beat a 4-5 pound fish


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

Gordon Casey said:


> Maybe born can look at one of his fishing license rules and reg's handbooks, I think somewhere there are fish eating advisories. Int


Threw out all fish eating advisories. Got tired of hearing the pros and cons with everyones expert opinion about advisory. To each their own. Eat what you want...


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Bay BornNRaised said:


> View attachment 459599
> 
> Threw out all fish eating advisories. Got tired of hearing the pros and cons with everyones expert opinion about advisory. To each their own. Eat what you want...


Interesting response...

Hmmmmmmmmm, what are the two leading causes of death in the United States? Heart disease and cancer. What do epidemiologic study data indicate the role of individual's genetics predisposes US citizens to death by these two causes? Approximately 30% for each disease category has a genetic basis. Let's see, seventy percent of US heart disease deaths, and cancer deaths are driven by behavior...

Yep, ain't nobody gonna change my mind with any study evidence. Quite timely, too!


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> Interesting response...
> 
> Hmmmmmmmmm, what are the two leading causes of death in the United States? Heart disease and cancer. What do epidemiologic study data indicate the role of individual's genetics predisposes US citizens to death by these two causes? Approximately 30% for each disease category has a genetic basis. Let's see, seventy percent of US heart disease deaths, and cancer deaths are driven by behavior...
> 
> Yep, ain't nobody gonna change my mind with any study evidence. Quite timely, too!


??? Went from a fish advisory to heart disease. My heart conditions falls into that 30% genetics from everyone in my family as I am only one left. Not behavior related.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Dish7 said:


> I'll refer you back to my original "troll." Could not conceivably be your tact. Carry on with the Asian carp discussion.


As I said in our initial exchange, my tact erodes AFTER I am attacked or insulted, a point again lost in your interpretation.

I appreciate your consistency since, again, you fail to add anything pertinent to the discussion.

Did you ever bone-up on CWD transmission mechanism and risk so that your claim of full understanding had any foundation?


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> As I said in our initial exchange, my tact erodes AFTER I am attacked or insulted, a point again lost in your interpretation.
> 
> I appreciate your consistency since, again, you fail to add anything pertinent to the discussion.
> 
> Did you ever bone-up on CWD transmission mechanism and risk so that your claim of full understanding had any foundation?


Another detailed article in the Detroit paper this morning regarding Asian carp DNA findings. A new term, at least to me , was used by the paper. eDNA, need Cork to provide the fine definition. They are finding eDNA further down the river system getting ever closer to Lake MI. They think the source is not necessarily the fish but fish by product. Sewage from Chinatown into the drain, birds can carry the eDNA in their feces. But their concerned they are seeing much higher levels than detected in the past. My feelings are that we need to better understand this situation, don't throw money at it until we have a definitive plan of attack. Watch the politicians put their .02 in. They need to listen to science to understand what should be done. They need to delay the inevitable as long as possible.


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

Gordon Casey said:


> They think the source is not necessarily the fish but fish by product.


"They" think?? Lmao... I "Think" they are not doing enough to stop the spread. All safeguards should be implemented at ALL EXPENSE and if only one thing works great. Better than waiting and see what will work or Not work. Better late than never dont work in this case...


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Gordon Casey said:


> Another detailed article in the Detroit paper this morning regarding Asian carp DNA findings. A new term, at least to me , was used by the paper. eDNA, need Cork to provide the fine definition. They are finding eDNA further down the river system getting ever closer to Lake MI. They think the source is not necessarily the fish but fish by product. Sewage from Chinatown into the drain, birds can carry the eDNA in their feces. But their concerned they are seeing much higher levels than detected in the past. My feelings are that we need to better understand this situation, don't throw money at it until we have a definitive plan of attack. Watch the politicians put their .02 in. They need to listen to science to understand what should be done. They need to delay the inevitable as long as possible.


https://asiancarp.us/eDNA.html

From what I recall, fisheries scientists at Notre Dame Univ. developed the assay method that is now the standardized test to measure concentrations of the DNA particles sluffed-off into the environment (eDNA). Basically, indirect evidence of presence, since it is no longer a part of the fish.

There are a number of issues with the electric barriers on the Desplaines River. Initially, there was just the Demonstration barrier, which actually was funded by Congress to block River Ruffe from accessing the Mississippi River drainage. It was redirected to be a blocking site for silver and bighead carp, with subsequent construction of redundant systems that were larger and held a higher static charge. When Barrier 1 was being tested, there was a current leakage issue. The local USCGS commander determined that this could potentially ignite a nearby coal pile, ordering both facilities to close for roughly five weeks. This information came from a direct conversation with Dr. Phil Moy, the Sea Grant employed consultant hired to help design the electric barriers. Now, let me repeat this, the Demonstration Barrier was not involved in any capacity in the current leakage issue, yet it was shut down along with barrier 1. Eventually, both were put back on line with Barrier 1 operating at 50% while the coal pile was relocated.


----------



## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> As I said in our initial exchange, my tact erodes AFTER I am attacked or insulted, a point again lost in your interpretation.
> 
> I appreciate your consistency since, again, you fail to add anything pertinent to the discussion.
> 
> Did you ever bone-up on CWD transmission mechanism and risk so that your claim of full understanding had any foundation?


You really don't see how dismissively you interact with posters responding or asking questions of you, do you? When someone asked you to explain your post, it's not a personal attack.
Nobody but you claims to have full understanding of CWD. You really should contact your peers and let them know of your breakthrough. Did you ever want to take me up on that wager that the spread will continue?
As far as adding anything to this discussion, you are correct. I don't have anything. I apologized earlier for taking a jab at you. Like I said, couldn't resist. I will try not to in the future. Continue on with Asian carp.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Bay BornNRaised said:


> "They" think?? Lmao... I "Think" they are not doing enough to stop the spread. All safeguards should be implemented at ALL EXPENSE and if only one thing works great. Better than waiting and see what will work or Not work. Better late than never dont work in this case...


https://www.bing.com/images/search?...r+map&selectedindex=0&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=2,6


https://www.bing.com/images/search?...r+map&selectedindex=6&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=2,6


In their usual piecemeal fashion of the Federal Government, additional augmentations have been added to the barriers. The porous rock formations that have been documented to allow flow have been fenced-off, Large fencing barriers in areas where spring flooding occurs have been constructed, extended and reinforced, bubble cannon arrays are the next addition to the actual electric barriers.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Dish7 said:


> You really don't see how dismissively you interact with posters responding or asking questions of you, do you? When someone asked you to explain your post, it's not a personal attack.
> Nobody but you claims to have full understanding of CWD. You really should contact your peers and let them know of your breakthrough. Did you ever want to take me up on that wager that the spread will continue?
> As far as adding anything to this discussion, you are correct. I don't have anything. I apologized earlier for taking a jab at you. Like I said, couldn't resist. I will try not to in the future. Continue on with Asian carp.


You attacked me for every conceivable failing, including my political views, repeatedly, AFTER I called you out as a charlatan...and you continue in that vein. Who lacks perceptive capability?

Did it ever occur to you, that you have no credibility?

The folks (the professionals) who are attempting to manage CWD spread via the NRC enacted plan have a better understanding that I do, so that is actually ANOTHER false statement on your part. I attempted to explain some of the specifics to you. You were insulting and derisive from the start of that exchange.

The specifics of OUR exchange revolved around the lack of understanding of the accepted biochemical mechanism that enables an infectious prion to convert a healthy cervid prion. Without that basic understanding, the rationale of the adding the baiting ban as an adjunct to deer density reductions as a two arm management approach makes no sense. Actually, my response to your wager offer was to acknowledge that the "idiots" who revere Ted Nugent as an informed "expert" to guide the discussion and comment on the rationale of the management plan would convince their legislator's to override science based management.

How did that prediction fit with reality!


----------



## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> You attacked me for every conceivable failing, including my political views, repeatedly, AFTER I called you out as a charlatan...and you continue in that vein. Who lacks perceptive capability?


Again, asking a question or even heaven forbid, disagreeing, is not a personal attack. 



Cork Dust said:


> Did it ever occur to you, that you have no credibility?


Credibility for what? Commenting in a hunting forum? To ask you a question? To disagree on any level with you? No, did not occur to me.



Cork Dust said:


> You were insulting and derisive from the start of that exchange.


Absolutely false. I started out by asking you questions. Which for some reason you are extremely sensitive to and offended by.



Cork Dust said:


> Actually, my response to your wager offer was to acknowledge that the "idiots" who revere Ted Nugent as an informed "expert" to guide the discussion and comment on the rationale of the management plan would convince their legislator's to override science based management.
> 
> How did that prediction fit with reality!


Now this, I agree with in premise. Didn't really answer my wager, but that's okay.

I'll apologize again for starting this all over again and high jacking this thread. Continue on with Asian carp.


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Asian carp will invade the Great Lakes it's a matter of where and when. Where and what are we going to throw all that money at, what is the game plan. Those barriers are prudent measures but what happens when birds transfer fertilized eggs across those barriers. Commercial netters are harvesting and selling live fish to oriental fish mongers. Truck loads of live fish were caught shipping to Canada. I'm wondering what are the laws that refer to transportation of live invasive species. Like someone reported earlier, all it take one psychopath to move live fish and and set the problem in motion. Other than those barriers, which is a political picture opportunity, what is planned or being done???
Look at the attachments Cork included on his post. There are carp all over the mid west, all the way from the southern states to the northern fringes of US. It's inevitable!!!


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Gordon Casey said:


> Asian carp will invade the Great Lakes it's a matter of where and when. Where and what are we going to throw all that money at, what is the game plan. Those barriers are prudent measures but what happens when birds transfer fertilized eggs across those barriers. Commercial netters are harvesting and selling live fish to oriental fish mongers. Truck loads of live fish were caught shipping to Canada. I'm wondering what are the laws that refer to transportation of live invasive species. Like someone reported earlier, all it take one psychopath to move live fish and and set the problem in motion. Other than those barriers, which is a political picture opportunity, what is planned or being done???


Each state among the Great Lakes Compact members and Ontario have each developed rapid response plans.

Possession and transport of live Silver, Bighead, and now Grass Carp is illegal in Michigan. East Asian markets are patrolled by a variety of enforcement personnel in Michigan, State and Federal, but, this remains the avenue I view as the most risky for successful introduction(s), since, in Asian cultures, survival of a disease or life threatening event is a reason to spare the life of an animal and release it into the wild....how snakeheads expanded in the Potomac after they were eliminated in another section of the river.

There is a point where managers have to play the sequential probabilities of those fertilized eggs surviving to fry stage; developing in numbers high enough to have the fish reach sexual maturity in abundance; and aggregate in a specific site to spawn. Each of these sequences has its own likelihood of occurrence and all are quite low.

I'll use alewife in Lake Huron as an example: The alewife stock crashed over 2001-2005, with most "gone" in the first three years, reducing their density to about 4% of previous values in Lake Huron. They still survive as a remnant stock, but do not expand due to the high level of predation exerted by a variety of fish and birds. Population biologists refer to this as a Predator Pit model. Even though sexually mature alewife lay thousands of eggs (r selective, with a stock recruitment function largely independent of base population values at spawning) they have thus-far failed to expand in Lake Huron and recover to anywhere near previous values, largely held in check by an array of potential predators over all life stages.

Their numbers in Lake Huron are several orders of magnitude greater that the hypothetical avenue you offer as a risk.

Basically, management schemes employ doing things that carry a high probability of working and diminishing threat or spread of an invasive.


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> Each state among the Great Lakes Compact members and Ontario have each developed rapid response plans.
> 
> Possession and transport of live Silver, Bighead, and now Grass Carp is illegal in Michigan. East Asian markets are patrolled by a variety of enforcement personnel in Michigan, State and Federal, but, this remains the avenue I view as the most risky for successful introduction(s), since, in Asian cultures, survival of a disease or life threatening event is a reason to spare the life of an animal and release it into the wild....how snakeheads expanded in the Potomac after they were eliminated in another section of the river.
> 
> ...


Your reply makes total sense. I understand the probability of viable eggs being moved by birds is very low, but still there is a risk factor. My best probably GUESS would be the movement of live adult fish getting into the GL system somewhere. Accidents happen all the time, best prevention measures fail. It just takes one accident! How about pink salmon infiltrating the Great Lakes. Do you know of any others measures planned other than that Chicago canal improvements. I think that canal protection is nothing other than "the thumb in the dike" but it still is something..


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Gordon Casey said:


> Your reply makes total sense. I understand the probability of viable eggs being moved by birds is very low, but still there is a risk factor. My best probably GUESS would be the movement of live adult fish getting into the GL system somewhere. Accidents happen all the time, best prevention measures fail. It just takes one accident! How about pink salmon infiltrating the Great Lakes. Do you know of any others measures planned other than that Chicago canal improvements. I think that canal protection is nothing other than "the thumb in the dike" but it still is something..


Actually, what I communicated was that the probability of each bird transported fertilized egg surviving to eventually become a spawning aged adult is an EXTREMELY low probability outcome, due to the low probability of each life stage prior attaining sexual maturity being survived by the individual fish, this is very different from what you state. Even then, an aggregation of around 26-30 fish would have to be present at a spawning site in a river with good flow to spawn and establish a foothold, per a modeling study focused on how many fish would it take to jumpstart a population expansion from a single site.

The electric barrier site was the most viable avenue for Asian Carp access to the Great Lakes. Yes, there are others. The US Army Corp of Engineers has mapped all watersheds that contain Asian Carp, currently. These watersheds adjacent tributaries that eventually drain into the Great Lakes have been identified and subsequent physical barriers have, or are under construction to block access via spring flooding events. The Maumee River drainage contains a couple sites of concern. As time passes, the physical fish dispersion driven access points have diminished, but the human driven release avenue remains a definite "wild card". The ineptitude of the US Coast Guard Service personnel, along with US Army Corp of Engineer foot dragging have not helped.

Pink salmon were not a mistake or an escape. Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources personnel propagated them to plant in inland lakes. When these efforts proved to be a failure the brood stock was released in 1976(?) to a tributary of Thunder Bay, the Steel River, gaining access to Lake Superior where the spread, generally spawning in even calendar years.
We netted them in the St. Marys River as a part of a USFWS assessment back in the mid-1980s.


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> Actually, what I communicated was that the probability of each bird transported fertilized egg surviving to eventually become a spawning aged adult is an EXTREMELY low probability outcome, due to the low probability of each life stage prior attaining sexual maturity being survived by the individual fish, this is very different from what you state. Even then, an aggregation of around 26-30 fish would have to be present at a spawning site in a river with good flow to spawn and establish a foothold, per a modeling study focused on how many fish would it take to jumpstart a population expansion from a single site.
> 
> The electric barrier site was the most viable avenue for Asian Carp access to the Great Lakes. Yes, there are others. The US Army Corp of Engineers has mapped all watersheds that contain Asian Carp, currently. These watersheds adjacent tributaries that eventually drain into the Great Lakes have been identified and subsequent physical barriers have, or are under construction to block access via spring flooding events. The Maumee River drainage contains a couple sites of concern. As time passes, the physical fish dispersion driven access points have diminished, but the human driven release avenue remains a definite "wild card". The ineptitude of the US Coast Guard Service personnel, along with US Army Corp of Engineer foot dragging have not helped.
> 
> ...


Your story regarding the pink salmon release has a little different twist than what I was told. Yes, they were reared at Thunder Bay for release into a northern lake with streams/rivers that had waterfalls to stop the migration. The story I got was that a Lands and Forests employee mis took them for coho and released them into a Superior trib. It's my understanding that MI. DNR were pissed on that mistake, not wanting another species in the GL. I spent a lot of my UP fishing experience (25 consecutive years) chasing pink's, I love to catch them on a fly rod.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Gordon Casey said:


> Your story regarding the pink salmon release has a little different twist than what I was told. Yes, they were reared at Thunder Bay for release into a northern lake with streams/rivers that had waterfalls to stop the migration. The story I got was that a Lands and Forests employee mis took them for coho and released them into a Superior trib. It's my understanding that MI. DNR were pissed on that mistake, not wanting another species in the GL. I spent a lot of my UP fishing experience (25 consecutive years) chasing pink's, I love to catch them on a fly rod.


There is another rendition of events that states they were released in the 1950s and then slowly spread across Superior, well prior any other Fish and Game agency tapping Pacific Salmon for planting in freshwater...

If you compare the interval for lakewide occurrence based on this origin date with that for wild origin Chinook and coho in Lake Michigan the two doin't match-up very well. Early anecdotal evidence including samples from unplanted streams began to appear in the early 1980s in a handful of streams on the Michigan side, to a point where Coded Wire Tag data indicated that Chinook wild-origin fish comprised 74% of the open Lake Michigan population in 2012 and around 64% in 2005, prior major plant cuts.


----------



## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Finally someone with the knowledge and data to put some of the misconceptions to rest!


Lots of myths and perceived ideals have been quelled with your interaction.


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> I am not as willing to repeat here-say as you


Cork
This thread was started to address Asian carp issues but morphed into various topics relating to fish. Very good discussions with factual information shared. Having said that, I have a few questions regarding Tribal and commercial netting practices. It was my understanding that with the approval of the consent agreement that most gill nets would be eliminated and trap nets be incorporated into practice. The thought was to stop the indiscriminate killing of the non target fish that happens when using gill nets.
Reading your posts it is evident that gill nets are still being used. Are gill nets used by both Tribal and commercial netters? In some cases are gill nets still legal or just that the Tribes just don't care? Do commercial netters, as a normal practice still use illegal nets or is it just tribal. I'm guessing that large mesh gill nets are legal for harvesting coarse fish like catfish and carp.


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

Gordon Casey said:


> the Tribes just don't care? D


Nor do the commercial netters. Small fines and big time Lawyers. Go figure.... Dont pick on em.... Bah humbug


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Gordon Casey said:


> Cork
> This thread was started to address Asian carp issues but morphed into various topics relating to fish. Very good discussions with factual information shared. Having said that, I have a few questions regarding Tribal and commercial netting practices. It was my understanding that with the approval of the consent agreement that most gill nets would be eliminated and trap nets be incorporated into practice. The thought was to stop the indiscriminate killing of the non target fish that happens when using gill nets.
> Reading your posts it is evident that gill nets are still being used. Are gill nets used by both Tribal and commercial netters? In some cases are gill nets still legal or just that the Tribes just don't care? Do commercial netters, as a normal practice still use illegal nets or is it just tribal. I'm guessing that large mesh gill nets are legal for harvesting coarse fish like catfish and carp.


Let's toss the title and reword it to: Future Threats to the Great Lakes Sport Fishery.

Some species of fish are excellent gill net avoiders; European carp and smallmouth bass are two that quickly come to mind. I worked for MSU as an undergrad. intern, through my post-graduate degree, at their Great Lakes Lab. on the mortality studies at the Ludington Pumped Storage Power Plant. Fred Serchuk, one of the doctoral students that also worked there, tagged a variety of fish inside the reservoir to determine the average time they remained there prior exiting to Lake Michigan. Per our contract with CE and Detroit Edison, we weekly set reservoir gill nets, trawled, and in a couple of instances seined sections of the water column, but hardly ever caught the radio tagged carp that Fred had released... and very few other carp that weren't tagged.

Commercial fishers that are not tribal are no longer allowed to use gillnets in MOST Great Lakes waters. That 'split" was part of the tribal fishery diversion from the broader commercial fishery in the 1970s in Michigan.

https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-350-79136_79236_80538_80541-424724--,00.html#current

A large segment of the Tribal commercial fishery still uses gillnets within Treaty of 1836 waters to fish lake. The State no longer offers buy-outs to convert those fisher's gear to the Tribal fishery members. Gill nets are cheap, more mobile and enable small boat fishers participation to fish commercially as well as for subsistence purposes.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Bay BornNRaised said:


> Nor do the commercial netters. Small fines and big time Lawyers. Go figure.... Dont pick on em.... Bah humbug


Isn't the commercial fishing oversight language significantly updated and altered now to bring the laws up-to-date?


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> Isn't the commercial fishing oversight language significantly updated and altered now to bring the laws up-to-date?


I sure would hope the laws are up to date. Don't see/ hear of them being enforced much more than the past. Not sure how much $ the white man netter has to fight the DNR, on otherhand tribal netters have more $ for lawyers than the State is willing to fork over for a "Fish".


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Bay BornNRaised said:


> I sure would hope the laws are up to date. Don't see/ hear of them being enforced much more than the past. Not sure how much $ the white man netter has to fight the DNR, on other hand tribal netters have more $ for lawyers than the State is willing to fork over for a "Fish".


Two years ago I attended a Great Lakes Fishery update, held in Marquette. The head of Great Lakes Fisheries Enforcement presented an over-view of their activities. In a table he listed their on-the-water patrols time, summed for the year, as well as all other activities they were directed to be involved in by Governor Snyder. Two things stood out from his presentation: !.) A great deal of their on-the-water patrol effort had diminished due to Governor Snyder's office directing them to augment patrols and inspections that normally were the responsibility of Dept. of Health personnel in Asian Markets where whole fish were being sold, butchered on-site for their customer base. Apparently, after the black-eye from management of the Flint Water Crisis, Governor Snyder was adamant that his administration not be in place when Asian Carp infiltrated the Great Lakes. 2.) Roughly 60% of the staff patrol officers were approaching retirement age.

We have had two CO classes that I know of graduate. Hopefully, some of these individuals will be assigned to this enforcement group. I do know a friend whose son just transferred over from his position in the U.P., so hopefully their numbers are back-filled by now.


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Nothing of any value is going to be done about Asian carp. Shipping, and only shipping, controls what happens on the Great Lakes. Those who purchase the politicians are only concerned with that.


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> Nothing of any value is going to be done about Asian carp. Shipping, and only shipping, controls what happens on the Great Lakes. Those who purchase the politicians are only concerned with that.


Well that Sucks!!


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> We have had two CO classes that I know of graduate. Hopefully, some of these individuals will be assigned to this enforcement group. I do know a friend whose son just transferred over from his position in the U.P., so hopefully their numbers are back-filled by now.


That's good news and I am hoping it helps.


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> Let's toss the title and reword it to: Future Threats to the Great Lakes Sport Fishery.
> 
> Some species of fish are excellent gill net avoiders; European carp and smallmouth bass are two that quickly come to mind. I worked for MSU as an undergrad. intern, through my post-graduate degree, at their Great Lakes Lab. on the mortality studies at the Ludington Pumped Storage Power Plant. Fred Serchuk, one of the doctoral students that also worked there, tagged a variety of fish inside the reservoir to determine the average time they remained there prior exiting to Lake Michigan. Per our contract with CE and Detroit Edison, we weekly set reservoir gill nets, trawled, and in a couple of instances seined sections of the water column, but hardly ever caught the radio tagged carp that Fred had released... and very few other carp that weren't tagged.
> 
> ...


Perhaps that is why Tribal netters keep and sell whatever they catch in those gill nets. They would never throw back a dead fish because it was on the "no keep" list.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DecoySlayer said:


> Nothing of any value is going to be done about Asian carp. Shipping, and only shipping, controls what happens on the Great Lakes. Those who purchase the politicians are only concerned with that.



Thank you for another sweeping, doom and gloom, pronouncement made with ZERO support and little forethought!

I wonder, could we not apply your broad pronouncement and logic to the current GOP in the DJT era? Fossil fuels regulations and oversight relaxations, defense industry spending increases with no conflict to fight, pharmaceutical industry and health care price increases via executive actions to shred the Affordable Health Care Act, banking regulatory oversight, EPA regulations relaxing clean surface water and air standards, efforts to prop-up the coal industry that still resulted in market share declines, Department of Interior actions and their associated scandals...all impacted by the "come swill at the trough" relaxed oversight and regulatory role-back actions of our current president with the support of the Senate to quash any legislation the exits the House. Oh, I forgot tax policy and regulations, as well as their now easily quatifiable impacts on the current direction and trajectory of the national debt's growth.

This is one instance where Great Lakes shippers have very little impact, outside of the inflated values placed on the annual "commerce" the plies the SAG canal system, which were actually derived by Chicago's ever-honest officials.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Gordon Casey said:


> Perhaps that is why Tribal netters keep and sell whatever they catch in those gill nets. They would never throw back a dead fish because it was on the "no keep" list.


They have NO Federal or State oversight requirements on their catch, a point we already covered. I know some tribal fishers who are good folks, I know other who are not... greed has an interesting influence of some personalities, particularly if they have no ethical core values.


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

Gordon Casey said:


> Perhaps that is why Tribal netters keep and sell whatever they catch in those gill nets. They would never throw back a dead fish because it was on the "no keep" list.


Neither the Tribal or commercial netters throw back so called dead fish. No keep list, Oh Okay... Whats that??


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Cork Dust said:


> Thank you for another sweeping, doom and gloom, pronouncement made with ZERO support and little forethought!
> 
> I wonder, could we not apply your broad pronouncement and logic to the current GOP in the DJT era? Fossil fuels regulations and oversight relaxations, defense industry spending increases with no conflict to fight, pharmaceutical industry and health care price increases via executive actions to shred the Affordable Health Care Act, banking regulatory oversight, EPA regulations relaxing clean surface water and air standards, efforts to prop-up the coal industry that still resulted in market share declines, Department of Interior actions and their associated scandals...all impacted by the "come swill at the trough" relaxed oversight and regulatory role-back actions of our current president with the support of the Senate to quash any legislation the exits the House. Oh, I forgot tax policy and regulations, as well as their now easily quatifiable impacts on the current direction and trajectory of the national debt's growth.
> 
> This is one instance where Great Lakes shippers have very little impact, outside of the inflated values placed on the annual "commerce" the plies the SAG canal system, which were actually derived by Chicago's ever-honest officials.



You know, as well as I do, that the Lakes cannot ever be returned to a "pristine" state. You also know, as well as I do, that the negative impact of invasive species will continue to get worse. You know, as well as I do, that controlling invasive species get harder as each new one gets into the Lakes. It's kind of like sticking your thumb into the foot wide hole in the flood control dike.

There will never be any real control until 100% of the locks, dams, and any artificial water diversion, on the Great Lakes are shut down, including the "Soo Locks" and the Welland Canal, just to name two. 

There is FAR too much political clout, and money, against that for it to happen. SO, you have what you have. BANDAID work at best.


----------



## Bay BornNRaised (Oct 23, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> You know, as well as I do, that the Lakes cannot ever be returned to a "pristine" state. You also know, as well as I do, that the negative impact of invasive species will continue to get worse. You know, as well as I do, that controlling invasive species get harder as each new one gets into the Lakes. It's kind of like sticking your thumb into the foot wide hole in the flood control dike.
> 
> There will never be any real control until 100% of the locks, dams, and any artificial water diversion, on the Great Lakes are shut down, including the "Soo Locks" and the Welland Canal, just to name two.
> 
> There is FAR too much political clout, and money, against that for it to happen. SO, you have what you have. BANDAID work at best.


Is a so called BandAid better than nothing? Your outlook sounds more like F'it why bother going to happen anyways....


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Bay BornNRaised said:


> Is a so called BandAid better than nothing? Your outlook sounds more like F'it why bother going to happen anyways....



No, MY attitude is shut down 100% of the man made crap and start working on eliminating the problems they caused. I don't have any control, or power, to do it. SO, live with what we have. The problems will continue to increase.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DecoySlayer said:


> You know, as well as I do, that the Lakes cannot ever be returned to a "pristine" state. You also know, as well as I do, that the negative impact of invasive species will continue to get worse. You know, as well as I do, that controlling invasive species get harder as each new one gets into the Lakes. It's kind of like sticking your thumb into the foot wide hole in the flood control dike.
> 
> There will never be any real control until 100% of the locks, dams, and any artificial water diversion, on the Great Lakes are shut down, including the "Soo Locks" and the Welland Canal, just to name two.
> 
> There is FAR too much political clout, and money, against that for it to happen. SO, you have what you have. BANDAID work at best.


"There will never be any real control until 100% of the locks, dams, and any artificial water diversion, on the Great Lakes are shut down, including the "Soo Locks" and the Welland Canal, just to name two."

Control over what is achieved with this as an endpoint? You thrive on bitching about an issue, as well as implying vast circuitous multi-agency conspiracies, both foreign and domestic, yet NEVER offer actionable, logical, and reasonable fixes!

You do grasp the general economic reality that shipping by water, while more lengthy a process, is significantly cheaper than shipping by rail or semi-transport options, particularly for bulk products like, ore, grain, etc.?

Personally, I have no interest in living in a totalitarian state. Largely because history has frequently underscored the these regimes are more prone to scandal and corruption at a magnitude far greater than that which occurs in our representative republic style of government. I am not 'more intelligent than all the generals' that no longer serve in this administration, fired, resigned, or indicted!

I am one of the folks who doesn't feel that lake trout have any prominent role in the fishery outside of Lake Superior. I am also in broad agreement with Dr. David Jude's contention that the Great Lakes are now so oligotrophic that Asian Carp will have a very hard time establishing, should they get into the system. As I stated earlier, I suspect they would populate the large river systems that dot the Great Lakes's shoreline, destroying those fisheries.

When the local USCGS station's commander presented to the local sport fishing group a couple of years back, they had just received their new ballast water inspection notebook outlining their authorities and responsibilities. When I asked him whether he had directed training of personnel under his command to engage in inspections. "No, we are not prioritizing this at our station." Didn't congress mandate all USCGS personnel to engage in these inspections? "We, are prioritizing our training based on what we anticipate our crews facing during patrols." Two weeks late they were called to respond to a bilge water dump east of Marquette. Sport fishers had run into a nice big brown discharge plume from an unknown source.... Was this the nefarious action of the Shipping Industry, or just bad management and oversight born-out?


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DecoySlayer said:


> No, MY attitude is shut down 100% of the man made crap and start working on eliminating the problems they caused. I don't have any control, or power, to do it. SO, live with what we have. The problems will continue to increase.




Retake Economics 101 for a base underscoring of why this won't work and would NEVER be feasible. 

I'll look for you in the crowd, the "rain cloud" over you will be easy to spot from a distance.


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> They have NO Federal or State oversight requirements on their catch, a point we already covered. I know some tribal fishers who are good folks, I know other who are not... greed has an interesting influence of some personalities, particularly if they have no ethical core values.


Cork
I'm not trying to "stir the pot". This thread has 148 posts with no one swearing at each other or demeaning rhetoric. But I am trying to sort out the limitations on what Tribal netters have,
1.) apparently they can catch and keep whatever they want at any time with no limitations.
2.) they can place the nets anywhere they want.
3.) they can sell whatever they want.
I'm sure there are Consent regulations and Tribal regulations to limit catches but go un enforced.
Your detailed of examples of substantiated violations in selling fish and net placement basically were thrown out, pittance fines levied, in the US court systems. Any situation that was referred to the Tribal courts, like you said, are private. So any guesses what happened to those violations?????
It's understandable that the US enforcement and Tribal enforcement do little or nothing to patrol waters knowing that nothing will be done if any violations are found.
I'm painting this picture with a 6 inch wide brush. I'm sure there is some netting management going on but I haven't heard of any where Tribal fishers were convicted of any netting violations.


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

I totally grasp the economic concerns of the man made stuff. It is where most of the invasive species in the Lakes came from. Some of those were brought in on purpose. Which is why I say, shipping controls the Great Lakes and the environment is secondary.

I am not only speaking of Asian carp, or lamprey. There are things like Eurasian milfoil and phragmities, just to name two. 

We are spending millions to reestablish celery, but the invasive species are taking over. The lack of celery have a great negative impact on waterfowl and MAY be one of the causes of the decline of the scaup population.


----------



## Gordon Casey (Jun 13, 2017)

Cork Dust said:


> Thank you for another sweeping, doom and gloom, pronouncement made with ZERO support and little forethought!
> 
> I wonder, could we not apply your broad pronouncement and logic to the current GOP in the DJT era? Fossil fuels regulations and oversight relaxations, defense industry spending increases with no conflict to fight, pharmaceutical industry and health care price increases via executive actions to shred the Affordable Health Care Act, banking regulatory oversight, EPA regulations relaxing clean surface water and air standards, efforts to prop-up the coal industry that still resulted in market share declines, Department of Interior actions and their associated scandals...all impacted by the "come swill at the trough" relaxed oversight and regulatory role-back actions of our current president with the support of the Senate to quash any legislation the exits the House. Oh, I forgot tax policy and regulations, as well as their now easily quatifiable impacts on the current direction and trajectory of the national debt's growth.
> 
> This is one instance where Great Lakes shippers have very little impact, outside of the inflated values placed on the annual "commerce" the plies the SAG canal system, which were actually derived by Chicago's ever-honest officials.


Watch out, Decoy slayer has infiltrated this thread.


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Nothing like working hard not to make things personal.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DecoySlayer said:


> I totally grasp the economic concerns of the man made stuff. It is where most of the invasive species in the Lakes came from. Some of those were brought in on purpose. Which is why I say, shipping controls the Great Lakes and the environment is secondary.
> 
> I am not only speaking of Asian carp, or lamprey. There are things like Eurasian milfoil and phragmities, just to name two.
> 
> We are spending millions to reestablish celery, but the invasive species are taking over. The lack of celery have a great negative impact on waterfowl and MAY be one of the causes of the decline of the scaup population.


Eurasion milfoil is spreading because the idiots who fish and boat at multiple sites don't remove the fragments from the trailer and prop, as well as livewells for the segments tangled on fish at hook removal. Seed and plant fragement spread by bird drippings and human spread are large drivers...sure not the shipping industry on this one either!

Valisneria sp. is being impacted by filamentous green algae out competing them, largely because the have hetercysts and can fix atmospheric nitrogen when it becomes limited in too rich phosphorus concentration waters. The soucrce of this excess phosphorus? Terrestrial agricultural practices, leaking septic systems along the shoreline account for the vast majority. Again, not related to the shipping industry's role in your broadside.

https://scholarworks.wm.edu/reports/1080/

...along with Cadmium levels likely from feeding on Quagga sp. mussels, which have are not caloric equivalents of native Spaerium sp. and Pisidium sp. mussels, low spring body weight in females at nesting from decimation of amphipod populations in the vernal migration water bodies, courtesy of minnow dealers in Wisconsin and Minnesota, etc.


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Cork Dust said:


> Eurasion milfoil is spreading because the idiots who fish and boat at multiple sites don't remove the fragments from the trailer and prop, as well as livewells for the segments tangled on fish at hook removal. Seed and plant fragement spread by bird drippings and human spread are large drivers...sure not the shipping industry on this one either!
> 
> Valisneria sp. is being impacted by filamentous green algae out competing them, largely because the have hetercysts and can fix atmospheric nitrogen when it becomes limited in too rich phosphorus concentration waters. The soucrce of this excess phosphorus? Terrestrial agricultural practices, leaking septic systems along the shoreline account for the vast majority. Again, not related to the shipping industry's role in your broadside.
> 
> ...



How did those mussels get in? How did the milfoil get in? The Phragmities?

Phosphorus? What sources beyond what you cite, which are 100% correct? How about the phosphorus used to treat drinking water to prevent lead leaching?

The point is that man is the cause of the vast majority of problems, that absolutely includes shipping. It includes all dams. It includes all diversions and locks. 

There is no political will to really try and fix these problems. We pick at it here, and poke at it there, and only if it does not cost much.


----------



## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DecoySlayer said:


> How did those mussels get in? How did the milfoil get in? The Phragmities?
> 
> Phosphorus? What sources beyond what you cite, which are 100% correct? How about the phosphorus used to treat drinking water to prevent lead leaching?
> 
> ...


The Quagga sp. mussels came in via bilge water. Phragmites sp. and a variety of invasive plants are not tied to saltwater commercial freighter bilge as their principal source of introduction.

The phosphorus you cite used to treat drinking water is a negligible volume when compared to what is dumped on the landscape by farmers, with much of it running-off in surface water, entering streams and rivers that drain into the Great Lakes. This was actually effectively protected via action by the Obama Administration enhancement to the Clean Water Act that DJT struck down via his "sharpie enacted" via Executive Order. Yes, I agree, this administration has done much to destroy the protections on air and surface waters that were hard-fought and hard-won over decades, a couple of the myriad reasons I don't support what is being done to the stature of the country and our current direction as a country.

Actually, you're conflating... extensively now, all dams, diversions, and all locks are not the issue, nor the problem, and closing them is not the solution. At best, via your logic and argument, they are simply avenues by which ships and barges pass. HOW those ships and barges are overseen via State and Federal protection regulations put in place to monitor their cargo, and discharges is where the issue is. Remember, it was a BIPARTISIN driven over-ride that restored funding to the Great Lakes Restoration Act that was slashed by DJT's direct action. Let's call a spade and spade, rather than a darkly colored suit of cards. Take a look at the jackals that are still in the administration: Mr. Sun Bank, the foreclosure machine, Ms. Stumble bumble in charge of the dept. of edicatin', Ms. Hi, did you know my husband is the majority leader of the Senate at Transportin'...and no, she didn't do anything wrong while aiding her family's business interests, that's why she returned the money when she what she did was divulged. Now, let's add daughter Dearest and her hubby...I seem to remember a groundswell of complaints directed at the Clinton Administration for him appointing his amply qualified wife to research national healthcare restructuring...apparently he should have snagged a chemistry degree and been running an apparel company to qualify for an administrative position in the White House. That leaves us a handful of temporary heads of the remainder of the cabinet, filling a variety of seats, now directed without congressional checks and oversight by the White House. MAN is the cause, I agree. In this era though, the erosions in Federal Protections, watering-down of enforcement actions and oversight, appointment of individuals who were lobbyists for the industries under the agency's oversight, and gross nepotism are the human driven issues regarding the Great Lakes' restoration and national environmental protection's erosions.

For a guy who decries big business exerting undo and illegal influence, you sure have acquired a sudden tolerance for it brought-out for open public display.


----------

