# Anti's at the House today in full force!



## 2 Kids And I Trap (Jan 5, 2010)

The Anti's were on the move today in the House. Spent the day listening to the un-truths. At one point during the day a Rep. asked an Anti how many pup do wolves have in a year? They could not answer that question. My last statement was " Rep Smily to answer your question early, wolves have an average litter size of 4-6 pups. With an over abundant food source they have been know to have 15-17 pups. And with the amount of people sitting here talking about the welfare of wolves. Why am I the only one to answer your question. I live in Holt."
That statement got a few boo's from the Anti's. Which were immediately stopped and scolded by the chair. It was fun. If I was not on the Anti's radar before I am know! Damn Good day Fellas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way SB 288 & 289 on its way to the house!


----------



## Velgang (Jan 17, 2004)

Thanks for the info Jon


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

On their way to the house yes, but have they been amended to included the appropriation?


----------



## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Doc, the appropriations is out. My information has it the committee in the house voted today. Prior to the vote all nine committee members voiced support, but when the vote took place one downstate rep. decided not to vote. The bill passed with 8 voting in favor and one not voting. I'm told the full house will take up the vote on Thursday.

Saw on TV6 Marquette this evening, one state representative was whining about preserving citizens right to petition. That's been the talking point for the no-vote legislators from day one. I need to point out the negative side of the ballot initiative process. For a multi-million dollar organization to come into Michigan, hire paid consultants to circulate petitions using blatantly false information (its documented) to
deceive residents into signing a petition....and with part of their written guidelines directing them, if someone begins asking questions just move to someone else...that's not a democtratic process, it is violating the petition process. We need to be asking our legislators what they are going to do about Michigan's ballot petition process being exploited by such undemocratic practices.


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

GVDocHoliday said:


> On their way to the house yes, but have they been amended to included the appropriation?


No, they have not. Their current state is one which many politically savy and experienced lawmakers expected considering the climate of our voting demographics in the State. A compromise like this is another fine example of how a voting Democracy (ok, Republic) should work. I may take heat for this, but here is why.

1) With visible resistance to issues prevaling, rushing to resolution should never be done without the full disclosure of its consequences. I don't want any more Constitution changing or unilateral decisions being made on important issues by special interests. Nor do I like the attachment of appropriations as a quick solution to referendum proofing the voice of the people for every issue. Its dangerous (albeit, sometimes necessary)for even a constitutional Republic. These bills do neither and bring multiple parties into the decision making still. If the antis in this State (and I don't know how many there may be on this issue without HSUS bankroling this) still want a say in this issue, allow them to prove it AGAIN by having to go and fight this legislation directly. This legislation spells out effective and practical management policy better than Proposal G did all on its own. That's an improvement it needed desperately.

2) I am not convinced as of yet that the complete hunting and trapping population of this State are active, responsible enough or deserving of the protections that a referendum proof legislation would bring. I have been on the Capital steps, the rally meetings, talking to people on the phone cold calling for support and my overwhelming opinion is that there are still alot of complacent, indifferent sportsmen that don't believe the antis (bogey man to some) are all that powerful or effective in impacting their sports they are supposeably so passionate about. If they truly were passionate, we'd be possibly hunting doves today. 

In a nutshell, if HB4552 & HB4553 pass as hoped and if the antis regroup and rebound, then let them . Only in a consequential fight for our sport's future, do I believe we will have earned our privelege to hunt and trap freely. Too many of us rely upon the activism of large associations or government agencies to insure our future. Does that make us responcible?


----------



## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Seaarkshooter, lots of wisdom in your statements. Only problem I have with it is.....we know HSUS spent somewhere between $3 to $6 each generating the 250,000 signatures and the tactics do not make for a legitimate democratic process.


----------



## Beaverhunter2 (Jan 22, 2005)

Searkshooter and Rooster- well said and very good points. 

Jon- you ROCK! ('nough said!)

I think we could resolve the issue with big out-of-state interests trying to push their views through our ballot box by making one simple change to the laws associated with initiatives- make it illegal to pay people to get signatures.

If people truly care about an issue- they will volunteer their time.

JMO

John

(BTW Nice catch, Dennis- we do not live in a democracy and our Founding Fathers never intended us to do so. The USA is a constitutionally-limited representative republic. Thank God!)


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Agreed. I think passing such a law is a great idea, but even then, I can still see where it will have difficulty in stopping large-scale initiatives. At best, it will just help in slowing down the paid bird dog practice and be difficult to severely prosecute entire associations. Which means, to me anyways, as sportsmen knowing this we should be readying our ranks for the job we failed to do 7 years ago or so with the dove bill. Conscientious sportsmen need to decide how long we can afford to let membership dues or affiliation be the crutch we rely upon. There are a whole lot of dedicated antis that stood in the cold gathering signatures which were not being paid that have the will to do anything necessary, including lie, to get the message out. This type of dedication has only been matched in any high percentage numbers by those citizens/sportsmen who have to deal with the wolves directly in the U.P.. Others in the lower State, with present infighting, i.e. APRs/no APRs, snares/no snares, catch and release, ect... have grown so far from a unified voice that it threatens our ability to act as one. To beat them it's going to take a lot more than just MUCC.

Believe me when I say this, HSUS, Michigan Humane Society, Audubon Society, Detroit Zoological society, PETA and many more supporting this initiative are standing side by side like they've never have before. They are unified, they are organized, and they have very large bank rolls. They're not going away and are going to keep coming back at us until the vast majority of the 80 percent of fence sitters in this State hear and believe the truth from sportsman themselves how they help manage the State's wildlife and they send antis packing. Until then, we can be perceived as an unseen, silent and self-serving group with beliefs of entitlement to the State's wildlife and resources by these uneducated fence sitters. Squashing this stereotype antis successfully label us with is THE challenge and our only true chance to securing our future sport.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Gary A. Schinske (Jul 10, 2006)

Well said gentlemen! 
Getting 250,000 signatures for a ballot initiative is a piece of cake for these well financed out of state organizations especially when they can get the bulk of them in high populated areas that really have no idea of the facts surrounding the issue. We need to get legislation passed that requires these signatures to come from the entire state. We had this bill in process at one time, and for the life of me I can not remember what happened with it. A percentage of every county based on their population is what we need to bring some sense to the ballot initiative process; in my opinion.
ALL sportsmen better wake up as Dennis said. We all came together for Proposal G. Then as soon as that was done, we went back to our personal agendas and started BS with our fellow sportsmen. It is not just houndmen verses trapper, it is bow hunter verses rifle hunter, bait fisherman verses fly fishermen, horse riders verses ORV, bait sitter verses hound runner, adult hunter verses youth hunter AND THE LIST GOES ON. WE BETTER DAMN WELL LEARN TO SHARE NATURAL RESOURCES WITH SOME COMMON SENSE AND RESPECT FOR OUR FELLOW SPORTSMEN RIGHT NOW BEFORE THE OUT OF STATERS CONTROL ALL OF OUR NATURAL RESOURCES. *OUR TIME IS NOW!!!!*


----------



## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

Alot of words put together on this subject, good words, very well thought out, presented very well. good job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW WHAT?

For what ever reason, there dont seem to be many boots on the ground.the cammo the capital the other day was lack luster to say the least. you have defined the problem well.Whats your plan of attack?

You do have a plan? How do you plan to get from where we are, to where we want to be?

Where are the rest of the trapping groups? the hound hunters, bird hunters bow hunters, you know the rest, all the others.

You are the leaders. right?


----------



## Black Powder Trapper (Feb 15, 2008)

I had a discussion with Erin yesterday and said that we needed to start now to do what we can to make it more difficult for a referendum to be started. Erin informed me that it would take a constitutional amendment to require a percentage of signatures from each county. There are other things that could be done legislatively to make it more difficult and I believe that we need to make doing this a big priority. I think that we need to start a plan to do this now and start the implantation after the dust settles on what is presently going on.


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

gilgetter said:


> Alot of words put together on this subject, good words, very well thought out, presented very well. good job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW WHAT?
> 
> For what ever reason, there dont seem to be many boots on the ground.the cammo the capital the other day was lack luster to say the least. you have defined the problem well.Whats your plan of attack?
> 
> ...


 In a truly effective and practical sense, Gil. I can only suggest what I think I personally can have control of while I continue to reiterate the same words to all that will listen what you have heard me say here. Contacting your legislator to let them know you are concerned about their veto referendum antics is a good start. In my opinion that will help put an obstacle in their way in the near future and is needed but will not be an effective long term solution to them as an effective floodgate. Our political enemies are very determined.

* The dichotomy of the lone trapper/hunter versus that of the social sportsman working to provide balance to nature for all of us is what needs to be promoted just as Teddy Roosevelt did nearly a hundred years ago.* 

Part of my shotgun approach would be to first get the news out to all trappers that they have to be seen and working to promote our sport in the population centers where the fence sitters are. We can't be content to have our activities anymore just in the small town comforts where we live. Once we find a means to meet those goals that a good number of us will join in on we can then attempt our surgical strikes. Any hatched plan needs the will of the active membership. 

I will be making my appeal to all members who will give me a few minutes to babble at our membership meeting at the Evart MMIT convention. Expect to see me stand up for our new business and comment period. I hope to see you there.

For G*ds sake Gil, don't forget the coffee and donuts this time. 

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

Well said dennis.That being said.Did this all come as a shock to the leadership?Did they not know this was comming? Dale has talked about this in some posts he has made. so I have to think they did.

I like the Idea of the lone trapper, But sad to say those day are probley gone. 

another thing that is hard for me to get a grip on is, Trappers have been told that we are weak,been told this by our leaders for so long that we accept it as gospel. We have to play nice, have to get along. dont want to make someone mad. you are only weak ,if you act weak. IF you never try.

Doubt I would be welcome at your meeting dennis, I tend to say what I think. most folks dont care for that. but Ill keep it in mind.


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

gilgetter said:


> Well said dennis.That being said.Did this all come as a shock to the leadership?Did they not know this was comming? Dale has talked about this in some posts he has made. so I have to think they did.
> 
> I like the Idea of the lone trapper, But sad to say those day are probley gone.
> 
> ...


 That's where you're wrong, Gil. Your welcome and you're opinions count. We need every member to voice their opinion. We need every member to be active. We need every member to be a part of this organization as one of the boots on the ground. We may not always agree. We might not always like what the other person has to say, but in the end we, all win or fail as a membership.

Just remember too though, Gil. None of us are paid. Most of us give up part of our family life, our vacation time, and a good portion of our disposable income for the greater good of trappers as a whole, for all of us. None of us are beyond making mistakes, but for the most part, a lot of us are doing it thinking we're doing good. So, I'll see you at the membership meeting.

As far as whether or not all (many) of us knew, I can't speak to that. I simply don't know. 1 House of Representative member and one Senator I have had multiple conversations with did forsee this happening. At their level, their abilities to forsee political outcomes is far beyond my comprehension and for good reason. They live it. 

As far as knowing what the antis are up too, it would be imprudent for me to tell you. You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

Btw, You're still down for coffee and donuts even if you don't come. Try to drop them off by 3 o'clock. Lol

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

Just what the antis want, to end my way of life, and yours also im thinken.

Just when is this meeting? ever hear that saying, becareful what you ask for? good chance your gonna be thinking of that.

I dont care If your paid or not, your in, or your not, If your in, BE in, If your not, thanks for your time, see you down the road. simple as that.

I like my family time as much as anyone, In my little world Family is all there is. we do most things as a family.I dont plan on giveing any up with out a good reason. This is a good reason,IMO

We have some very good leaders in our ranks, they may not know it, but they are there. we have some very smart folks, some of you college boys, and girls can put words together pretty dang good.

Politics, I hate to say the word, but its what we have. so we need to get good at it most ricci tic.

Two things to remember, Cant never did a dang thing, and where theres a will theres away.

PS Im gonna bring some beene weenes for you. I lived on them for a year, they will do ya good.


----------



## Fur-minator (Nov 28, 2007)

Seaarkshooter said:


> I will be making my appeal to all members who will give me a few minutes to babble at our membership meeting at the Evart MMIT convention. Expect to see me stand up for our new business and comment period. I hope to see you there.


When is the MMIT convention and when is the meeting?


----------



## DIYsportsman (Dec 21, 2010)

dont mean to change the subject but can we discuss how we can enlighten the general population (80%ers who dont really care but seem to always out vote us whenever they can) i think this is a major subject that needs to be discussed/addressed, and could actually be popular, cause i think many people are on the fence but leaning towards our views if not for a lot of generalizations/misconceptions/stereotypes

what i envision (thinking about this for years) is sort of a outdoor show (outdoorama-like but catered to the public) open to the public (maybe take donations on the way out if you enjoyed it) the show would be located probably near lansing or se mi, cause thats where most of the populations centers are and a big voter base; it would include every type of hunter/trapper/fisherman (maybe farmers/other perspective too) that is interested and the focus would be on education and familiarization to the public about how we see it (which is never shown) showing the distruction overpopulation of wildlife can have, benefits of managing wildlife, restoration projects funded by hunters/fisherman, species brought back funded by hunters/fisherman etc etc

also it would be interactive with a lot of activities for people to do (outdoor projects, outdoor related games, sort of a picnic setting with large demonstrations (4H style), as well as people can ask questions they might have (feedback)

enlightening legislators is important but i think in the long term we need to educate the general pop to be effective so we dont always have to be on the defensive... you can never win on defense you can only hope to not lose..

maybe im rambling, guess im tired, but hope you all get my drift, hope someone can expand my ideas a little i will check back tomorrow night if i have time... good work from what i am hearing, hope it turns out well... let me know if im making sense...


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Fur-minator said:


> When is the MMIT convention and when is the meeting?


The MMIT convention is May 17 &18th in Evart. The MTPCA board meeting ( which has always been open to membership ) I hope is on Saturday at noon again. I will get confirmation of this soon.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

gilgetter said:


> Just what the antis want, to end my way of life, and yours also im thinken.
> 
> Just when is this meeting? ever hear that saying, becareful what you ask for? good chance your gonna be thinking of that.
> 
> ...


 I like your thinking there, Gil. 

Beene weenes? Hmmm? Heck, I'm one of nine kids, I learned to eat just about anything when food was scarce. Sounds good!

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

DIYsportsman said:


> dont mean to change the subject but can we discuss how we can enlighten the general population (80%ers who dont really care but seem to always out vote us whenever they can) i think this is a major subject that needs to be discussed/addressed, and could actually be popular, cause i think many people are on the fence but leaning towards our views if not for a lot of generalizations/misconceptions/stereotypes...
> 
> enlightening legislators is important but i think in the long term we need to educate the general pop to be effective so we dont always have to be on the defensive... you can never win on defense you can only hope to not lose..


DIY

While I wouldn't know the foggiest about television programming or how to get something like that started, I can certainly appreciate your enthusiasm. I believe something like that would be a great help. Matter of fact, a few great ideas like that is probably all that would be needed. There may not be any silver bullets, but some effective grassroot initiatives get jump started with just a few simple good ideas just like that. 

Enthusiasm begets more enthusiasm. Electronic media has always played a big role in promoting outdoor activities. It doesn't take long for people to realize that they're missing out on something good when it's brought to the comforts of their own home. We, who live in the country, know this because we walk out our back door from time to time and realize right away what game conservation and land stewardship does for the soul. It rejuvenates us to where we can't help but want to share it with others. That's a big reason why most would never consider moving anywhere that rusted street lights line up like jack pine stands and the only appreciable woods in sight block railroad tracks or industrial warehouses. Those areas, often lend itself to feeling defeated or stressed and a lifestyle entrenched in trying to find any type of enjoyment when it doesn't come from being outdoors. These are the people that we need to reach.

Again, how right? It's going to be different for all of us in our means. Not every area of Michigan has the same resources, but as long as sportsman are reminded to have the same mindset and encouraged to aim towards a specific goal, it won't really matter in how we got there, except collectively that we did.

This is exactly why I say we all need to get active with our organizations in deciding how to share with the indifferent, things that we are passionate about. Push your organizations to do these things visually in areas that they might not ever want to be otherwise. When they do, it attracts attention. Positive attention from the media for doing good things is what we can strive for.
Above all, we have to bring it to the comforts of their own homes and where they live. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## 2 Kids And I Trap (Jan 5, 2010)

Fur-minator said:


> When is the MMIT convention and when is the meeting?


 
MAy 16th -17th 

Jon


----------



## 2 Kids And I Trap (Jan 5, 2010)

All these good points should be taken up with your Rep. You know the ones that can accually help us do some thing. Always do what you can. 


Jon


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

2 Kids And I Trap said:


> MAy 16th -17th
> 
> Jon


No, I believe it is Friday and Saturday the 17th and 18th of May.

The 16th and 17th would be a Thursday and Friday.

August 16th and 17th are the dates of our (Mtpca) convention.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

I agree, instead of preachen to the choir we need to talk to the folks that vote, as you said the the large % that dont really Know about trapping. The best way to do that? thats the 64 dollar question.

Anyone ever looked at the the local cable stations? they do all the local PSAs just asken.

Dennis The board meeting in evert was always open to members, but they arent able to speak.

Another question, will there be a MMIT on may 17th?


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

While that is true about the board meeting, it is important to hear what we are doing. If you agree that we need to become more unified, organized and reaching out to the fence sitters in the state, then learn who sits on the board in your district. If those board members are not there from your district at this meeting, politely ask why? If there are open spots in vacant districts on the board of directors with the organization, submit to be a part of it, be one of those directors. Please, please get involved.

After the board meeting, there will be an open membership meeting for the 2013 convention that all can join in on. As Convention Coordinator, I need to hear what YOU would like to see at YOUR convention. Everyone seems to love coming to our convention, I want to hear from everyone, individually, why. I want to be able to build upon what may be seen as being an exceptional value to your membership. I want your experience at convention to be positive so that you can tell people that may not know much about trapping ( fence sitters) that when trappers ( social conservationists) get together, we have a great (passionate) time.

As far as MMIT, that would be up to that membership ( which I'm also a member of) to decide there. Should they decide not to continue and to merge with us, I will be doing everything in my power to help make sure that it is seamless, ensuring that they still continue to feel they have a voice and, most of all, that everyone willing has the ability to remain active as they see fit. We are all trappers with a voice here in Michigan. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

Mixed feelings about MMIT, I have questioned the need for to many groups, all doing there own thing, But I wonder how many will transfer? 

convention! I have asked about convention doings in the past, wasnt pretty, for the most part I was told to go pound sand, they come a ace of hurtin my feeling a time or two. I will gladly talk to you about the convention. Wonder Why we dont have a convention like P.A. or even ohio. I will bend your ear. and just remember you asked for it.

I rejoined the MTPCA at the last convention, aint heard a word since, had to ask about my membership card, I did get it. I plan to reup this convention, good lord willin. My thinken is that the groups I have been a member of, NTA MMIT MTA, have been run like a goat rope. a knee jerk reaction at best. and that is why not many join, just my two cents.


----------



## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Seaarkshooter, lots of wisdom in your statements. Only problem I have with it is.....we know HSUS spent somewhere between $3 to $6 each generating the 250,000 signatures and the tactics do not make for a legitimate democratic process.


Would it be legitimate if it were MUCC, QDM, MTA, SCI, or another outdoorsmen related group doing the same thing ?

Outdoorsmen may need to do the same thing in the future. Is it wise to give up our right to referendum, Consider that one anti leaning Governor could change the future of our sports with his/her appointments.


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

gilgetter said:


> Mixed feelings about MMIT, I have questioned the need for to many groups, all doing there own thing, But I wonder how many will transfer?
> 
> convention! I have asked about convention doings in the past, wasnt pretty, for the most part I was told to go pound sand, they come a ace of hurtin my feeling a time or two. I will gladly talk to you about the convention. Wonder Why we dont have a convention like P.A. or even ohio. I will bend your ear. and just remember you asked for it.
> 
> I rejoined the MTPCA at the last convention, aint heard a word since, had to ask about my membership card, I did get it. I plan to reup this convention, good lord willin. My thinken is that the groups I have been a member of, NTA MMIT MTA, have been run like a goat rope. a knee jerk reaction at best. and that is why not many join, just my two cents.


 We need to be united. We could be called Gil's Group of Grumpy Gladiators for all I care. Most important part is that were united, organized and effective
at protecting and growing our sport. Enough said.

I'll be there listening, Gil. I'll be glad to have you come up with all kinds of great ideas that you can help organize and direct. That's what my job is. I support people and we need your experience. And you're right, why can't we have conventions like Ohio does. I speak with Chuck, their convention coordinator at OSTA, weekly now and I like what they do and how they do it. A great group of guys. 

And speaking of such, I've challenged them this year at the Nationals to the possum tossing championships. I started this competition with the NTA this year and currently have four other states associations so far on board to compete with us. I'm expecting you and others trappers within the state to compete and show them what type of athletes we are. At the very least expect us to bet the Buckeyes!!!


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

sounds like a motown group from the 60s.I am the possum king, so with the proper motivation I could come out of retirement. we are talken folding money here.

Glad your talking to ohio, we can use the help.My Ideas mite just be dumb as Hell, so I have been told. Ill see what you have to say

While your at it get ahold of Minny soda, and the cheese heads.there groups have far better support than michigan does, like said we can use the help.


----------

