# Question about "whoa?"



## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

What is the best way to correct Whoa from a distance? If Ruger is by my side, I can whoa him and walk anywhere. He wont move until I release him. Even when hes dying to get out of the kennel, I can whoa him, stomp around the kennel door, and he stays put.

However, if hes ranging out from me (like he would be when he goes on point) and I whoa him, hes unsteady. Sometimes he will remain where he is until I get there, but more often than not he will try to meet me half way. When he does this, I have been telling him no and then leading him back to the spot that he was at when I whoad him. I then whoa him from that spot and walk away. Of course, he does fine with that. But I really need to get him to hold the whoa better when Im walking to him, not when Im walking away.

Be patient and continue what Im doing? Any advice is appreciated. So far, this work has all been done in the yard. 

I have an e-collar, but everything I have read says not to use it on stationary commands. The only thing I have ever used the e-collar for was a couple of hesitations to come. 

Thanks all,

Mike


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## Buddwiser (Dec 14, 2003)

I am by no means a professonal trainer but I trained my last GPS to whoa and understand I meant it in the backyard before I tried to use the command out in the field. The one time I really needed that command to be obeyed was worth the time I spent. My understanding of the collar (never had one) is that its used for correction of a known and understood command whether a stationary command or not. If he understands what you want but refuses to do it, use the collar.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

So you're saying if he initially whoas, but then breaks as I approach - use the collar.

He has demonstrated that he knows what the command means by obeying it when I am near him.


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

> Sometimes he will remain where he is until I get there, but more often than not he will try to meet me half way. When he does this, I have been telling him no and then leading him back to the spot that he was at when I whoad him. I then whoa him from that spot and walk away. Of course, he does fine with that. But I really need to get him to hold the whoa better when Im walking to him, not when Im walking away.


If you whoa him, and he takes a step, get to him as quickly as possible, physically pick him up and place him where the command was originally given. Whoa again, and let him think about it for a long time (not sure if I would use No, sounds like). You can make the correction harsher by grabbing some skin around the neck or rump when you pick the pup up and set him back down. Worked for me.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Benelli said:


> If you whoa him, and he takes a step, get to him as quickly as possible, physically pick him up and place him where the command was originally given. Whoa again, and let him think about it for a long time (not sure if I would use No, sounds like). You can make the correction harsher by grabbing some skin around the neck or rump when you pick the pup up and set him back down. Worked for me.


 
Good point. I will try that.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Benelli said:


> If you whoa him, and he takes a step, get to him as quickly as possible, physically pick him up and place him where the command was originally given. Whoa again, and let him think about it for a long time (not sure if I would use No, sounds like). You can make the correction harsher by grabbing some skin around the neck or rump when you pick the pup up and set him back down. Worked for me.


Just to add a little bit. I would hack the dog alot and keep him close during your runs and whoa him where he is fairly close to you so you can make that quick correction. Do it just like Benelli says, I'll even get a little ear once in a while. When you put them back drop them don't set them down.

Do you have a an ecollar and a checkcord?


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

RecurveRx said:


> So far, this work has all been done in the yard.


Sounds like he is place oriented, only thinks it matters in the yard, time to take the training to new and different locations.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Yes, I have a check cord and ecollar. Didn't think of the check cord bc I haven't had it on him in a couple days. Duh :idea: 

We're taking a trip out of the yard Sat morning. Anxious to see how it goes.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

I agree with the other posters.
Because dogs have a tendency to push/pull against force (like when you walk a dog) I like to pull gently on a lead in the direction they are facing or push on their behind while they're on whoa as a reinforcement. I've also seen Dogwhistle on this forum push down on their lower back to make them stand a little taller.
A belly-banded e-collar using a light, continuous setting can work well too, but I'd stay away from that technique until the dog thoroughly understands the command.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> I agree with the other posters.
> Because dogs have a tendency to push/pull against force (like when you walk a dog) I like to pull gently on a lead in the direction they are facing or push on their behind while they're on whoa as a reinforcement. I've also seen Dogwhistle on this forum push down on their lower back to make them stand a little taller.


 
That makes perfect sense. Hadn't considered it. I will give that a go too.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

If you hit him with the e collar when he breaks from whoa or he takes a step, more then likely he will run back to you. I would NOT be using the e collar for that.Do just like the others have told you. Set him back. If he insists on moving after a couple of corrections you to tighten the screws down a bit more and start to make that correction a little bit more unpleasant.
A word of caution here also.You can take some of these training commands too far.As in trying to teach the dog more then him or you both need.You can end up with a dog that is afraid to make a move on his own.They will tend not to want to leave your side or venture out too far from you and actually go hunting.Read your dog and teach him just enough to get the results you want. Don't over teach.You can take these yard drills to the point where they become counter productive.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

More good advice. I knew I could count on you guys. Thanks!

I have not used the ecollar for this and won't. The only thing I have ever used it for with him is a couple of hesitations to "come." So it would stand to reason that if I hit him with it here, he'd probably "come," which is exactly the response I don't want. 

I just want to lay some ground work to help him be staunch on point. I don't have a pigeon trap so that's going to be tough for me to teach. I'm hoping this winter (after my NM elk hunt) I can put aside some funds to buy a trap.

Funny, I got into this pup with the mind set - he's a family pet first that will be servicable for hunting. I'm not going to obsess over his field work. I like the breed, they're great with kids, my son's ready for a dog and as a bonus I get to go hunting with him. Now, here I am already looking at plans to build a pigeon coop and trying to think of what I can sell to pay for a trap... Sheesh  I hate it when my wife is right. She saw this coming a mile away.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

the electronic traps have a lot of advantages. but lots of dogs have been trained using the mechanical release traps.

keep in mind, what you are trying to reinforce isnt really "whoa" its "staunchness". whoa is just to reinforce the staunch point once it's been established by the dog. trying t o whoa into a point can lead to complications, such as blinking the bird.


good luck and enjoy seeing your pup develop.


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

This will be one of the topics in our seminar coming up....myself, personally I dont use, but help out many that do......with what an how I do things, the bird teaches the dog whoa, and I dont say a word, just differences of opinion, on doing. I do everything in the field, instead of the house, that way its easier an alot less work on me at home, the field is where 95-100% of anything will usually be used. I will be up there a day or so early, maybe we can shoot the bull then, the seminar is filling up pretty fast, so if your interested there is a sticky with the info on. Thanks Jonesy


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## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

crosswind said:


> If you hit him with the e collar when he breaks from whoa or he takes a step, more then likely he will run back to you. I would NOT be using the e collar for that.Do just like the others have told you. Set him back. If he insists on moving after a couple of corrections you to tighten the screws down a bit more and start to make that correction a little bit more unpleasant.
> A word of caution here also.You can take some of these training commands too far.As in trying to teach the dog more then him or you both need.You can end up with a dog that is afraid to make a move on his own.They will tend not to want to leave your side or venture out too far from you and actually go hunting.Read your dog and teach him just enough to get the results you want. Don't over teach.You can take these yard drills to the point where they become counter productive.


Totally, as I have worked with Ruger, go easy, he is not timid, but very biddable. No force is needed for Ruger, just consistancy.

P.S. On your other post - your wife was more worried about you not doing anything with the dog, at least that's what she told me when you were out of earshot.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Work your commands in different locations.

Increase the distance slowly. Whoe him from 10 yards for a few sessions.....then 20 yards...etc etc. 

All the while using the corrections the others have offered. Make sure you create distractions on purpose because opportunity to correct is what you want. You want to temp the dog to move so you can correct him on purpose.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

GSP Gal said:


> Totally, as I have worked with Ruger, go easy, he is not timid, but very biddable. No force is needed for Ruger, just consistancy.
> 
> P.S. On your other post - your wife was more worried about you not doing anything with the dog, at least that's what she told me when you were out of earshot.


 

Sandy, yah I noticed that right away. Hes definitely a sensitive little guy. Ive been using a pretty soft hand. 

As for my wife She was really stretching to come up with any reason she could think of not to get another dog. Rugers won her over now too. I even caught her carrying on a conversation with him a couple days ago  I have worked him twice a day since we picked him up. Hes doing great. I was just holding off taking him into the field until we had a couple weeks to really work on obedience and form a bond. 

Gotta call my wife now and ask her how that crow tastes


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

You understand why, you are out front an coming back, dog does fine job?? and when out front an not coming back, comes unglued a little.........it isnt ready for distance, or big distance between you two, when coming back, it relaxes him, because he knows your gonna be right there........when your out a ways from the dog, he is nervous, because he doesnt understand whats going on or why........a dog always reads the voice....when you tell him whoa, in a stearner voice while out front or on your way out front.....your tone of voice causes nervousness......which causes dog ungluement hahaha. Keep distances comfortable, for a bit then slowly increase as dog shows you its understanding an why...work with the dogs time table, the confidence will show in time. Thanks Jonesy


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Everyone is welcome to disagree with this but personally I find "whoa" to be a worthless command unless the dog is actually pointing. Teaching a dog to "whoa" and stay that way with tennis balls being thrown, kids running around, etc etc etc etc isn't going to help one lick unless the dog is pointing a bird. 

You want to build the proper association with the command. It won't help you if the dog stays put when you throw its favorite toy while "whoa'd" but not when it finds a bird 100 yards out. People talk, shout, and crash through brush too loudly when they hunt (including yours truly at times), you don't want to be shouting "whoa" at that range, you want to be quietly moving up and quietly telling the dog "whoa."

Put another way, get the dog on birds, get it to understand that moving in on birds is not what is wanted, and you really shouldn't need to say anything. If the dog is good at its game, and if it has good instincts, a thrown tennis ball etc shouldn't distract it from the bird it's pointing anyhow.

As an example (and I've posted this before) this is my newest pup. He's so focused on the bird he's pointing here that you can literally pick him up and set him down elsewhere and he'll still be pointing. I've done some "whoa" training in my yard to get him to understand that he should stay put when I say the command, but what he's doing here is all natural, I just say "whoa" to remind him I'm there.










A dog that has learned to "whoa" without birds around has simply learned to "Stay."

Focus on recall, let the dog hunt, and work on "whoa" with birds present.

Just my opinion.


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## Rasputin (Jan 13, 2009)

When I had my first setter's, Johnny Johnston started them. I wanted to teach the "whoa" command, so I called Johhny to ask him how to do it. You have to know Johnny to appreciate his response:




"The way I like to explain it to the dog is..........."


Priceless.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

WCH, that is pretty much my philosophy too. you cannot whoa a dog into pointing birds.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Whoa is just another obedience command, pointing is a completely different thing. But the two do work together; for instance if you want your dog steady to wing and or shot. He establishes point.......you tell him whoa......dog can not move from whoa until he is commanded to do so.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Everyone is welcome to disagree with this but personally I find "whoa" to be a worthless command unless the dog is actually pointing. Teaching a dog to "whoa" and stay that way with tennis balls being thrown, kids running around, etc etc etc etc isn't going to help one lick unless the dog is pointing a bird.
> 
> You want to build the proper association with the command. It won't help you if the dog stays put when you throw its favorite toy while "whoa'd" but not when it finds a bird 100 yards out. People talk, shout, and crash through brush too loudly when they hunt (including yours truly at times), you don't want to be shouting "whoa" at that range, you want to be quietly moving up and quietly telling the dog "whoa."
> 
> ...


Tell me that when your dog is charging in on another dog after he refuses to back. Or worse yet he has bumped a bird and is charging across a field headed for traffic.
Whatever it is used for all pointing dogs should be taught it.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

crosswind said:


> Tell me that when your dog is charging in on another dog after he refuses to back. Or worse yet he has bumped a bird and is charging across a field headed for traffic.
> Whatever it is used for all pointing dogs should be taught it.


 
Amen. Andfor those of ypou that live in the city and a cat crosses in front out you WHOA has saved me atime or two


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

crosswind said:


> Tell me that when your dog is charging in on another dog after he refuses to back. Or worse yet he has bumped a bird and is charging across a field headed for traffic.
> Whatever it is used for all pointing dogs should be taught it.


I don't disagree with that.

But I'm betting you don't teach dogs to back without another dog present and I'm betting you don't teach dogs to be steady to wing and shot without birds. Right?

If so, that's my point (no pun intended). Teaching a dog "whoa" without either present is doing nothing more than teaching the dog to stay or stop. Not how to handle the different situations. 

JMO


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

ummm if i tell a dog to whoa when he sees another dog pointing im teaching him how to handle seeing another dog pointing and to back... 

Like i always say every one has their own methods some work better than others.. Use whatever works for you.. 

i will say this most professional trainers teach the command whoa... the command whoa has been around for years.. apparently they must have been doing it wrong for the past however many years..


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

WestCoastHunter said:


> If so, that's my point (no pun intended). Teaching a dog "whoa" without either present is doing nothing more than teaching the dog to stay or stop. Not how to handle the different situations.
> 
> JMO


How is the dog supposed to ever learn the command if you don't work on the basics in the yard or field?

Once the dog understands the command things can start to be added - tossing birds, backing, distractions (tennis balls, cats....). I just whoaed a dog today in my parents back yard. The neighbors yorkie was wandering his way over a little to close. No e-collar on the dog, whoad him, went and collared him, said hi to the little old lady and the yorkie lived another day to do what ever it is that yorkies do.

Maybe I missed your point....


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I don't disagree with that.
> 
> But I'm betting you don't teach dogs to back without another dog present and I'm betting you don't teach dogs to be steady to wing and shot without birds. Right?
> 
> ...


What ????????? Your joking me right.?????????


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

Thats a couple pretty good points by WCH, You can get twice as much steady work done with dogs, with stop to flush work....they understand fairly that there isnt any chase allowed, because we have a hold of the check cord, and dont allow it........which prevails, and teaches the dogs when they are put in scenting, and pointing conditions.......that there isnt any chase then either..........it makes things come together very nicely.
Backing is assoc, the people that came here two years ago for the seminar, had a pretty suprized look when we had the dogs backing a white drink cooler, and no words, no ecollar, just the assoc of stopping an watching what is gonna happen........a boys dog outta up northeast.........said the dog would never back .........three set ups later done it very nicely, and consistantly....this was a three year old setter female. We did also allow the dogs to back other dogs to.......they were in discussion about not being able to do it by theirselves, showed them that they can...and all the dogs done very nice jobs. Just my .02 thanks Jonesy


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

tailcrackin said:


> Thats a couple pretty good points by WCH, You can get twice as much steady work done with dogs, with stop to flush work....they understand fairly that there isnt any chase allowed, because we have a hold of the check cord, and dont allow it........which prevails, and teaches the dogs when they are put in scenting, and pointing conditions.......that there isnt any chase then either..........it makes things come together very nicely.
> Backing is assoc, the people that came here two years ago for the seminar, had a pretty suprized look when we had the dogs backing a white drink cooler, and no words, no ecollar, just the assoc of stopping an watching what is gonna happen........a boys dog outta up northeast.........said the dog would never back .........three set ups later done it very nicely, and consistantly....this was a three year old setter female. We did also allow the dogs to back other dogs to.......they were in discussion about not being able to do it by theirselves, showed them that they can...and all the dogs done very nice jobs. Just my .02 thanks Jonesy


 The posted question for the thread was about teaching a dog whoa.What WCH said didn't make one bit of sense to me.
What does getting dogs to back a white cooler have to do with whoa training???????


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

> Tell me that when your dog is charging in on another dog after he refuses to back. Or worse yet he has bumped a bird and is charging across a field headed for traffic.
> Whatever it is used for all pointing dogs should be taught it.


This is a prior post of yours, before the started contraversy......I went off what you had said, along with what wch had said. 

All the stuff with whole topic can be very easily taught without a word. An open mind, patience, and not being in a hurry to show off something, the dog will do very well. It doesnt matter trial dog or hunting dog. You and the dog will come out on top, if ya allow it. thanks Jonesy


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

RecurveRx said:


> Gotta call my wife now and ask her how that crow tastes&#8230;


The above quote is the poorest advice in this thread. There's not even a close second.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

tailcrackin said:


> Thats a couple pretty good points by WCH, You can get twice as much steady work done with dogs, with stop to flush work....they understand fairly that there isnt any chase allowed, because we have a hold of the check cord, and dont allow it........which prevails, and teaches the dogs when they are put in scenting, and pointing conditions.......that there isnt any chase then either..........it makes things come together very nicely.
> Backing is assoc, the people that came here two years ago for the seminar, had a pretty suprized look when we had the dogs backing a white drink cooler, and no words, no ecollar, just the assoc of stopping an watching what is gonna happen........a boys dog outta up northeast.........said the dog would never back .........three set ups later done it very nicely, and consistantly....this was a three year old setter female. We did also allow the dogs to back other dogs to.......they were in discussion about not being able to do it by theirselves, showed them that they can...and all the dogs done very nice jobs. Just my .02 thanks Jonesy


 
Nice plug for the seminar..


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Everyone is welcome to disagree with this but personally I find "whoa" to be a worthless command unless the dog is actually pointing. Teaching a dog to "whoa" and stay that way with tennis balls being thrown, kids running around, etc etc etc etc isn't going to help one lick unless the dog is pointing a bird.
> 
> You want to build the proper association with the command. It won't help you if the dog stays put when you throw its favorite toy while "whoa'd" but not when it finds a bird 100 yards out. People talk, shout, and crash through brush too loudly when they hunt (including yours truly at times), you don't want to be shouting "whoa" at that range, you want to be quietly moving up and quietly telling the dog "whoa."
> 
> ...


So the dog is running toward the road and you yell "whoa" and it stops and stays until you go leash it up and redirect it from the road. Worthless command???? 

So the dog points a bird and you walk in to flush the bird and softly say "whoa" to reinforce what it is supposed to do in that situation and it handles the bird as you have trained it. Worthless command????

So the dog now knows how to handle it's birds, It points as you go in to flush, It stays on point through the flush and shot. No need at that point to use/reinforce the command. 

So the previous use of the command has proven worth while. As you have a. saved it from running onto the road and possibly getting killed; b. reinforced the command in the proper setting as to reach an objective goal with the dog to be steady on point. 

Worthless command? I think not.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

WestCoastHunter said:


> A dog that has learned to "whoa" without birds around has simply learned to "Stay."


Yup...



dogwhistle said:


> you cannot whoa a dog into pointing birds.


Yup...



Rugergundog said:


> Whoa is just another obedience command, pointing is a completely different thing.


Yup...



midwestfisherman said:


> So the dog is running toward the road and you yell "whoa" and it stops and stays until you go leash it up and redirect it from the road. Worthless command????


Nope...

Teaching a dog "whoa" in your backyard on Frisbees, your front yard on the neighbor's dog (done that) or Mike L's backyard on squirrels (done that too), isn't going to make him any steadier on birds -- but those things can be building blocks to bird steadiness, AND the command has other worthwhile applications like keeping your dog out from under that semi, keeping him from jumping all over the UPS guy, etc. 

I THINK what WCH was saying is that simply teaching a dog whoa isn't going to instantly make him honest on birds. Just like he broke after that Frisbee the first time you drilled him on it, he's probably going to break after a bird or two too if all you do is drill him on backyard distractions.

I like to think (I've been persuaded by Dogwhistle to think...) that steadiness is best taught WITHOUT a verbal whoa command. Who's going to keep your dog honest when he's 100 yards out in the grouse woods? Do you plan to shout "WHOA FIDO, WHOA BOY, WHOA PLEASE!" for 5 minutes as you hack your way through the brush to him?

So I THINK (in my advanced years of dog-training wisdom... :16suspect) that you go ahead and teach whoa as an obedience command in the backyard with all those hog-wild distractions. Then when you introduce birds, you keep your yapper shut, but use the SAME ENFORCEMENT you did in teaching whoa -- a waist hitch, a belly band, e-collar, whatever. In theory, this keeps the dog honest without you shouting up the woods. The dog obeys your "invisible hand," not your loud mouth. This is all untested in the Wernet household, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

KW


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

> Nice plug for the seminar..


Take it how you would like to, We had alot questioning this same thing on whoa, explained and then proved it. So when we put the proof in the pudding, everyone started understanding more with the way of training, and quit trying to figure out ways to add whoa, when it wasnt needed.



> So the dog is running toward the road and you yell "whoa" and it stops and stays until you go leash it up and redirect it from the road. Worthless command????


Yea sorta, if the dog can hear whoa...it will hear the word "here" so instead of the possibles on the dog maybe stopping in the road, you can gather it up a good ways before the road. Put the check cord on and direct it where ever you want to go. Right?


> So the dog points a bird and you walk in to flush the bird and softly say "whoa" to reinforce what it is supposed to do in that situation and it handles the bird as you have trained it. Worthless command????


Yea sorta, why allow the dog concentration on everything you have been working on, to get altered? When its on point and in focus, everytime you talk or say something....you are involved in its job, and when that sort of window opens and it fails, why do people get on the dogs butt? Not the dogs fault, it doesnt understand english.....right? When the dog is doing the job correctly, why talk and open the window not to? Thanks Jonesy


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

Here is an old write up with Jim Guthrie, very good way to put things. Sorry its long, but its worth its weight in gold. Thanks Jonesy



Honestly , I am ashamed of how I trained dogs a few years ago. I had 
broke dogs but they didn't look good doing it, I wasn't training them 
happy. I talked with my mentor about how I could get more out of my 
dogs and make them look like a million bucks. This leads me to 
answering your next question that I quoted from your last post. 

I will try to explain it the way I was explained to from my mentor. 
It can be long but bear with me and keep an open mind.

I was asked if I was educated and for how long. I answered 16 years 
of education. He told me that I should be experienced with all that 
education in writing the letter "A", since I probably started 
learning how to do this in preschool.

I was handed a piece of paper and a pen and told me to right down the 
letter "A" I did as instructed. A blank piece of paper had the 
letter "A" written on it.

"A"

He then asked me again ,....Jim, Could you please write down the 
letter "A" for me. I did as instructed, the piece of paper now looked 
like this .

"A A"

With a little sterner voice he told me JIM, could you please write 
the letter "A" for me. My paper looked like this.

"A A a"

I now sensed frustration in his voice, he told me, "I am asking you 
once again....Could you please write down the letter "A" on the piece 
of paper I gave you. It now looked like this..

"A A a a"

He sat there for a minute and paused... I got a little nervous, he 
went back to a calm voice and asked me if I could write down the 
letter "A" for him on the piece of paper, it now looked like this...

"A A a a A"

Now with a disturbed look on his face and his demeanor was totally 
diferent, almost in a defensive mode, now his voice was raised , JIM 
COULD YOU PLEASE WRITE DOWN an "A"! on the piece of paper I gave you, 
so I did it looked like this..

"A A a a A an a"

He looked at my piece of paper very angry at this point and asked me, 
Could you please write down on the piece of paper the letter "A". Now 
it looked like this...

"A A a a A an a A"

He asked me to show him the piece of paper. he said ok lets look at 
this and talk about what you wrote......

I asked you to write down the letter "A" and you did that correctly. 
Then I asked you to write down the letter "A " again, and you did 
that correctly, now on the third one you wrote down a lower case "a", 
why did you do that? he asked. I stated that I understood him the 
first two times and I thought I did that correctly, then I was trying 
to figure out the third time what he was really wanting me to do? So 
I made the lower case "a" This went on and on through all the letters 
I wrote down on the piece of paper. He asked me why I was so 
inconsistant in what he was asing me to do. I told him his demeanor 
changed and I actually got tired of doing it and was ready to quit 
his little game. I was confused and didn't really understand what he 
was asking me to do.

That is when the light bulb turned on for me. ", "Dogs are alot like 
people!" 

If I asked the dog to do what I was asking of him and he did it, that 
is what I wanted him to do, he then did it the second time correctly 
when asked. Then why would you ask him to do it a third time if he 
did it once or twice correctly? This is where experience and reading 
the dog correctly comes in handy.....knowing when to stop and keeping 
them happy and loose.

I should have stopped there and put him up happy. If I kept going 
trying to get it perfect, I may only confuse the dog and not progress 
as if I stopped there and put him up when he did what I was asking of 
him. Remember...there is always tomorrow. If you are consistant in 
training and don't over do the training you will gain more in the 
long run.

Does this make sense to you?

The reason I told you to whoa the dog a long ways away after getting 
him loose is, if the dog is a long ways away,and you have the 
training down, (stimulatation and verbal) the dog is too far away to 
come back to your side. If he tries, you have a solid foundatation 
laid to correct him.


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

> Yea sorta, if the dog can hear whoa...it will hear the word "here" so instead of the possibles on the dog maybe stopping in the road, you can gather it up a good ways before the road. Put the check cord on and direct it where ever you want to go. Right?


Well, a smart person would be paying attention and give the command "before" the dog gets to the road. Once it is to the road it's too late. A here command would work as well, but we weren't discussing the here command now were we? So for that reason I believe your comment is out of context.



> Yea sorta, why allow the dog concentration on everything you have been working on, to get altered? When its on point and in focus, everytime you talk or say something....you are involved in its job, and when that sort of window opens and it fails, why do people get on the dogs butt? Not the dogs fault, it doesnt understand english.....right? When the dog is doing the job correctly, why talk and open the window not to? Thanks Jonesy


Well getting the dog STWS is a process and in the example that you quoted the dog is not yet steady thus the reinforcement. Again out of context. If you bother to read the rest of my statement then you'll see where I stated that once the dog is to the point where it is steady, then you keep your mouth shut and let the dog do it's thing. Just because people don't use the "silent method" doesn't mean they're doing things the wrong way. There's more than one way to skin a cat or get a dog STWS even.


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

Here is an old write up from Jim Guthrie, its a little long but I think worth its weight in gold, in training. Hopefully, its understood, and enjoyed, Thanks Jonesy

Honestly , I am ashamed of how I trained dogs a few years ago. I had 
broke dogs but they didn't look good doing it, I wasn't training them 
happy. I talked with my mentor about how I could get more out of my 
dogs and make them look like a million bucks. This leads me to 
answering your next question that I quoted from your last post. 

I will try to explain it the way I was explained to from my mentor. 
It can be long but bear with me and keep an open mind.

I was asked if I was educated and for how long. I answered 16 years 
of education. He told me that I should be experienced with all that 
education in writing the letter "A", since I probably started 
learning how to do this in preschool.

I was handed a piece of paper and a pen and told me to right down the 
letter "A" I did as instructed. A blank piece of paper had the 
letter "A" written on it.

"A"

He then asked me again ,....Jim, Could you please write down the 
letter "A" for me. I did as instructed, the piece of paper now looked 
like this .

"A A"

With a little sterner voice he told me JIM, could you please write 
the letter "A" for me. My paper looked like this.

"A A a"

I now sensed frustration in his voice, he told me, "I am asking you 
once again....Could you please write down the letter "A" on the piece 
of paper I gave you. It now looked like this..

"A A a a"

He sat there for a minute and paused... I got a little nervous, he 
went back to a calm voice and asked me if I could write down the 
letter "A" for him on the piece of paper, it now looked like this...

"A A a a A"

Now with a disturbed look on his face and his demeanor was totally 
diferent, almost in a defensive mode, now his voice was raised , JIM 
COULD YOU PLEASE WRITE DOWN an "A"! on the piece of paper I gave you, 
so I did it looked like this..

"A A a a A an a"

He looked at my piece of paper very angry at this point and asked me, 
Could you please write down on the piece of paper the letter "A". Now 
it looked like this...

"A A a a A an a A"

He asked me to show him the piece of paper. he said ok lets look at 
this and talk about what you wrote......

I asked you to write down the letter "A" and you did that correctly. 
Then I asked you to write down the letter "A " again, and you did 
that correctly, now on the third one you wrote down a lower case "a", 
why did you do that? he asked. I stated that I understood him the 
first two times and I thought I did that correctly, then I was trying 
to figure out the third time what he was really wanting me to do? So 
I made the lower case "a" This went on and on through all the letters 
I wrote down on the piece of paper. He asked me why I was so 
inconsistant in what he was asing me to do. I told him his demeanor 
changed and I actually got tired of doing it and was ready to quit 
his little game. I was confused and didn't really understand what he 
was asking me to do.

That is when the light bulb turned on for me. ", "Dogs are alot like 
people!" 

If I asked the dog to do what I was asking of him and he did it, that 
is what I wanted him to do, he then did it the second time correctly 
when asked. Then why would you ask him to do it a third time if he 
did it once or twice correctly? This is where experience and reading 
the dog correctly comes in handy.....knowing when to stop and keeping 
them happy and loose.

I should have stopped there and put him up happy. If I kept going 
trying to get it perfect, I may only confuse the dog and not progress 
as if I stopped there and put him up when he did what I was asking of 
him. Remember...there is always tomorrow. If you are consistant in 
training and don't over do the training you will gain more in the 
long run.


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

> but we weren't discussing the here command now were we? So for that reason I believe your comment is out of context.


But if you think about what your saying, it is in text, because if that dog can hear you say whoa, it will hear you say here........so instead of the dog stopping where ever it does...if it does........you tell it to come here, and its at your feet, if you done that part of the job right. 

So why talk to the dog at the start of steady work, when you want its full attention? sounds like a un needed crack to slip threw?


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

Never once in any of my replies on this board or any board, have you ever seen where I said it was wrong, this issue or any issue, so there shouldnt be a beef here with me, I always try an help, along with keep things simple and easily understood. Sorry, Thanks Jonesy


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Alright, but what about the dog that's already on the other side of the road? A "here" takes him across the road, "whoa" stops him in his tracks.

Kind of a pointless debate IMO, some people teach their dog to shake and roll over, some don't. I talked to a trainer on Saturday who says this is the exact reason he doesn't post on here. Make one comment (WCH) about the way you do things and people flame you for 2-3 days. 1000 ways to skin the cat, guys! Gonna go take my dog for a walk now...

KW


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

Thats a good post Kevin. 
Here is my what and why, 
I help a whole lot of people with their dogs on the internet, at my house, on the phone, ect. People dont understand what is causing the dogs to fold, 99.9% of the time its your voice and this word. People, dont use the word as a word, its always a stern correction, voice gets sterner when the dog doesnt do it exactly as the owner wants. Dogs fold up and get nervous, and its always the dogs fault. If you think on it a little, "here" has been used probably twice as much in the dogs life, and was never really used in a stern way, its always been happy time, to see dad/mom.....you get less rejection on this word, because its always been used in a fair understanding way between you and the dog. 
When newbies are browsing the boards tryin to figure things out, this is a huge topic, and usually ends up with an arguement, which is very unfortunate. Because alot can learn from it. The newbies dont get a chance to try an figure things out, without all the contraversy. That stuff puts them on every road, but the road of understanding. When you are on several different roads during training at one time, there is gonna be a wreck, somewhere. My comments are about trying to help...everyone. thanks Jonesy


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

How about this example. You are up in the woods grouse hunting, the beeper goes into point mode, you go into the thick cover and there stands ole Fido on point,three feet from Mr. Porky.
What would be the best command to use now ? Hint it has nothing to do with A or AA or even a. 

Why do people want to rewrite the training book. I would think that over a hundred and fifty years or so the basics should be pretty well established. Here, come, whoa, fetch, stay, all pretty basic commands that have been time tested on a million dogs. There is a reason they are taught them, THEY WORK.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

kevin, i use whoa after i have arrived at the point and before i go in to flush. it reinforces staunchness on a dog that anticipates a bird flushing and would like to break and jump on the bird. it's certainly a good tool to carry, but is no substitute for natural staunchness.

mike


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

Pretty simple, that dog will stand there for x amount of time, and it will get nervous an look to see where you are, the instant that it does that, make a hot correction with the collar, and dont say a word, this way in the dogs mind.......it is between the dog and the porcupine....this exactly the same as snake breaking and or deer breaking. When the dog peels off, you walk away an coax the dog away from the situation....1. by nagging with the ecollar and a lower heat, in continuos mode, and 2. By your voice.......with here's or c'mons. Your timing is everything. What you do, and when you do it. Thanks Jonesy


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

tailcrackin said:


> Pretty simple, that dog will stand there for x amount of time, and it will get nervous an look to see where you are, the instant that it does that, make a hot correction with the collar, and dont say a word, this way in the dogs mind.......it is between the dog and the porcupine....this exactly the same as snake breaking and or deer breaking. When the dog peels off, you walk away an coax the dog away from the situation....1. by nagging with the ecollar and a lower heat, in continuos mode, and 2. By your voice.......with here's or c'mons. Your timing is everything. What you do, and when you do it. Thanks Jonesy


About half the time ,when you hit that dog with the e collar he is gonna pile in on that porky,hot correction or not.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

DW, so what if it is a dog that does not have a ton of natural staunchness.Or any natural staunchness for that matter. I have broke plenty of dogs that have had zero natural pointing abilities but have went on to become great at pointing and holding birds and never take a step.
All have been taught to whoa.

I get these trial dogs in to fix various issues from all over the country.Most if not all are broke by other people.These dogs are not your typical birds dogs either, they are wound tight ,reved up bundles of nerves. I don't know what they have had done to them or even who done it. All I get told is what the problem is that the dog has. I have been taking on jobs like his for years. Guess what fixes about 90 percent of these dogs issues.I go back to the beginning and either re-whoa break them correctly or teach it to them for the first time in their life.
I just have to laugh everytime I hear or read about the person that does not think you need to teach a pointing dog to whoa.The first thing that enters my mind is this is just another yahoo with a half/***** broke dog.


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

If the dog is gonna be in that predicament, that its gonna pounce, I guess instead of whoaing it to stand there, I will go help get it outta there, before anything bad happens. You do your stuff right, and it wont happen.
It sounds like you work alotta dogs for the public, your responses and actions say alot. Hopefully somebody got some learning outta this topic, Bobby replied to ya, thanks everyone, Jonesy


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

tailcrackin said:


> hopefull somebody got some learning outta this topic, Bobby replied to ya, thanks everyone, Jonesy


More than you know. 

This spirited debate has made me feel better about asking the question. A lot of different perspectives. Gives a guy the opportunity to pull out pieces from every one. Maybe some day I will even know enough to have an opinion 

PS. Ruger is doing better with his whoa. Yes, I'm still teaching it.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

crosswind said:


> DW, so what if it is a dog that does not have a ton of natural staunchness.Or any natural staunchness for that matter. I have broke plenty of dogs that have had zero natural pointing abilities but have went on to become great at pointing and holding birds and never take a step.
> All have been taught to whoa.
> 
> I get these trial dogs in to fix various issues from all over the country.Most if not all are broke by other people.These dogs are not your typical birds dogs either, they are wound tight ,reved up bundles of nerves. I don't know what they have had done to them or even who done it. All I get told is what the problem is that the dog has. I have been taking on jobs like his for years. Guess what fixes about 90 percent of these dogs issues.I go back to the beginning and either re-whoa break them correctly or teach it to them for the first time in their life.
> I just have to laugh everytime I hear or read about the person that does not think you need to teach a pointing dog to whoa.The first thing that enters my mind is this is just another yahoo with a half/***** broke dog.


 i can see you and i could end up in an arguement. i'm not in a mood for one. i've got one dog that anticpates the flush on a pigeon. they have all been pretty stanch on wild birds. and all but that one on pigeons.

how do you whoa a dog to point a bird, if you dont know where the bird is?


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

k9wernet said:


> I THINK what WCH was saying is that simply teaching a dog whoa isn't going to instantly make him honest on birds. Just like he broke after that Frisbee the first time you drilled him on it, he's probably going to break after a bird or two too if all you do is drill him on backyard distractions.


That was pretty much the gist of it.



crosswind said:


> I have broke plenty of dogs that have had zero natural pointing abilities but have went on to become great at pointing and holding birds and never take a step.


Now that's some hubris. Why breed pointing dogs at all then?


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Now that's some hubris. Why breed pointing dogs at all then?


I think for those dogs it should be known as a trained stop or anything but a true point. My hat's off to any trainer who can accomplish something like that though.


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## bc993 (May 6, 2008)

crosswind said:


> Tell me that when your dog is charging in on another dog after he refuses to back. Or worse yet he has bumped a bird and is charging across a field headed for traffic.
> Whatever it is used for all pointing dogs should be taught it.


Glad my 9 yr old GSP still knows the word "Whoa" she loves little kids and the kids love Molly. They both love to throw and retrieve tennis balls. My dog was following the kids who just threw tennis balls for her on the beach, the kids were heading back accross M25. One of the kids still had Molly's tennis ball when they left for home. I yelled whoa, Molly stopped on a dime... otherwise she would have been road kill which I've seen way too many times up here (55 mph on m-25). Both kids and dogs get excited with all the things going on especially during this Cheeseburger thing. 
Could've ruined my fall to say the least, she's been with me a long time.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> I think for those dogs it should be known as a trained stop or anything but a true point. My hat's off to any trainer who can accomplish something like that though.


I can agree with that.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Now that's some hubris. Why breed pointing dogs at all then?[/quote]

WCH most of these dogs that are sent to me are bred better then most people can afford.They are usually just so high strung that they tend to go wild.Until that hyperness is gotten under control it is not uncommon at all for them to not point naturally.In there opinion that bird is not ment to be pointed it is lunch.Just because they are like that does not mean you cull them from the trial string. Lack of hunt,desire,run, drive,endurence or style gets them culled from the string.
You ask why breed pointing dogs then.You have not a clue as to what they are looking for.These people are looking for that needle in the hay stack.Most of these trial dogs are probably more birddog then you have ever worked with.If you truely want to know why they breed pointing dogs like that, get involved in some of the trialing venues.It is what you have to have if you want to be competitive.And once you have owned one and seen what they are capable of you will never settle for less.
To give you an example of the style required, if these prospects point like your dog in your avatar they will not last long on the string.I don't say this to down grade your dog at all. Don't know it, it may be a fine dog.But they have to be the complete package style, drive and stamina,etc.


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## BirdDogger (Sep 9, 2008)

I've used a 2 dog collar system with one on the neck and one on the waist of my dogs. It worked fabulous for teaching whoa.
I think less confusion. Neck is "come here" waist is "whoa"
I started with a whoa stick, then brought the waist collar in.
Eventually a waist stimulation triggers a stop.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

how do you whoa a dog to point a bird, if you dont know where the bird is?[/quote]

Simple, it is easy to see when your dog has made scent.If you see he has made scent and is not already slamming on the brakes,that is when you tell him whoa.Keeping him from what is called setting his birds up.Most people don't even realize their dogs are doing that until you point it out to them.
This will also teach the dog to stop on first scent contact. It will also keep them backed off those pen raised birds. It will teach them that even though they have blown through the scent cone and made contact , to plant their feet, instead of circling back around into the scent cone and pointing, thus putting more pressure on the bird.
All by simple whoa breaking your dog, imagine that.The list of reasons goes on and on.I can't think of one reason not to teach it, except as a shortcut in the training time. Those shortcuts are why a lot of those problem dogs end up at my place. There are no shortcuts, they will always cost you somewhere else.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

BirdDogger said:


> I've used a 2 dog collar system with one on the neck and one on the waist of my dogs. It worked fabulous for teaching whoa.
> I think less confusion. Neck is "come here" waist is "whoa"
> I started with a whoa stick, then brought the waist collar in.
> Eventually a waist stimulation triggers a stop.


Let me disclaim what I'm about to say with this: I've trained two pointing dogs for the past 4 years with mixed to moderate results. In other words, NOT AN EXPERT HERE!!!

Anyway, (and don't take this personally) I think there's something fundamentally wrong with what BirdDogger just said.

For the first few years, I used an ecollar on the neck ONLY to enforce the recall command. Over time, what I saw going on was that the dogs would ignore my verbal command or even the whistle, and wait for that stimulation before they recalled.

What eventually dawned on me was that I was actually using the collar AS a command, rather than using it to ENFORCE the command. I had cheated. I didn't spend enough time drilling the dogs WITHOUT the collar. I think that's a big part of the reason dogs become "collar wise".

Whenever I'm out with my dogs, I carry a pocket full of treats. If they recall well, they get a treat. If they whoa well, they get a treat. Totally different commands, but same response from me, right? Is that confusing for the dogs? Nope. They know what they need to do to get a positive response from me.

At the same time, they're wearing an e-collar around their necks only. If they hesitate on a recall, they get stimulation. If they flinch on whoa, they get stimulation. Two totally different commands, but the same response from me, right? Is that confusing for the dogs? Nope.

Two points:

1) These animals are smarter than we give them credit for.

2) The e-collar is not a remote control for your dog, and it's no substitue for hours spent in the yard. It is a training tool, just like a treat is a training tool. Use it as such and make darned sure you're not substituting it for a command. You'll see results.

KW


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

The belly band makes perfect sense if its fits in your training program. 
Every dog is different.

Stimulation on the neck is associated with a movement.
Here. Down. Heel. Kennel. All involve movement.

Stimulation on the belly means stop. Period...no confusion.
Whoa work with a half-hitched check cord transitions well into the use of a belly band. 

My dogs, my style.
Every dog is different.


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