# A 1.5 yr old ten point



## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

It really is kind of hard to get a buck to show you his teeth, when there's a gun pointed at him. :yikes:


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2000)

> BINGO. 4 pt a side would protect roughly 70% of yearling bucks in the southern lower, as opposed to the current 0% protection.


I don't really buy that zero protection thing. I know of several hunters that pass up small bucks. Especially down here in southern lower mi.
I looked at the buck in question here and it did have some of it's baby teeth. The taxidermist was the one who aged it, and I totally believe him. It didn't have a huge spread, but it did have one tine that measured 9inches. It had a weird rack with a "drop" tine that appeared at first impression to be a third main beam coming out from the lower side of the rack and bending forward following the real main beam.
Actually I agree with Ed Spin. It's what I've been trying to say every since this issue of ARs came up. 
We already know that in a pond if you keep only the big fish, and let the small ones go you eventually end up with a population of stunted fish. It took many years for people to come to grips with that fact, but now ask anyone who owns a pond and they'll tell you it's true. The only way to change things is to remove the stunted fish and release the bigger ones.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Erik said:


> We already know that in a pond if you keep only the big fish, and let the small ones go you eventually end up with a population of stunted fish. It took many years for people to come to grips with that fact, but now ask anyone who owns a pond and they'll tell you it's true. The only way to change things is to remove the stunted fish and release the bigger ones.


There may be some validity to it, but the fish analogy does not apply to precisely to deer. The reason? It is near impossible to judge the potential size (body, antler, or otherwise) of bucks when they are 1.5 years old, which happens to be the age at which 70-90% of the bucks get killed. There are a variety of reasons why a yearling buck may have below-average antlers or body size; he could have been a late-born fawn, could have had an incompetent mother, could have been reared in a microsite that suffered an ice storm while he was in infancy, he could have received some poor nutrition or suffered some illness along the way, or he simply could be a genetic "late-bloomer", just like many humans are. The bottom line is that it makes sense to pass on yearling bucks, regardless of what their antlers (or bodies) look like.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Deer aren't fish nor are they cattle or bird dogs.

Genetics are fine in MI, we have a screwed up age structure and management policy that compromises natural selection.

I don't buy the "zero protection thing" either, it's probably close to 1% (bucks with 3.5" spikes)


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2004)

Erik said:


> We already know that in a pond if you keep only the big fish, and let the small ones go you eventually end up with a population of stunted fish. It took many years for people to come to grips with that fact, but now ask anyone who owns a pond and they'll tell you it's true. The only way to change things is to remove the stunted fish and release the bigger ones.


If you think we have an APR debate going now, wait until you tell hunters that they can't shoot anything bigger than a 4 point :yikes:. Also, the analogy isn't completely applicable. A yearling 10 point isn't exactly a mature animal, it's more equivalent to about a 13 inch bass. Just because a young bass has a big dorsal fin (antlers?) doesn't mean that he is a "big bass". Your analogy might be better if we were talking about body weight and not antler size. The simple fact is that scientific experimentation has proven that passing on yearling bucks (all yearling bucks) has a positive impact on the entire deer herd. Period.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

What would our slot limit be here in the U.P.? On an average year 50% of the bucks are spikes...a higher percentage following a severe winter, and 82% of the bucks are 4 pts or less.....even higher following a severe winter.

AR's are the best way to promote a protection of yearling bucks and the subsequent older age structure that is the result...either voluntary or not. For example, on my property you can use a 4 pt. rule to protect 95% of the yearling bucks...what else could give you that protection rate?

Voluntary will never work for the U.P., in which 84% is public lands, so unless we change something we will never have a better age structure.

The other options would be:
*No baiting
*1 Buck license
*or go with the way it's been for many years

No baiting would probably accomplish the most for the protection of yearling bucks

AR's are probably second

1 Buck license is probably last

Neither No Baiting or the 1 Buck license appear to be an option in the near future, so the AR's that the DNR allows to work if an initiative is carried through and passes is the only option for an older age structure, especially for the U.P. where there is so much public land.

So, it comes down to a choice in the U.P.....continue with what we have, or AR's. I hope we make the right choice when the ballots are sent out.


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## Matt3ddsteel (Jan 10, 2002)

A 1.5 year old ten point is not uncommon in a place that where the deer have good food sources along with good genetics. My dad has taken some dandy 8 points that have been 1.5 years old and i've also seen plenty of nice young bucks where I hunt.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

The Mutt said:


> Just one more reason my "UN-QDM" program is what would truly be best for our herd rather than the current APRs.



:evil: lol....I need to remember that phrase...."un-QDM". I LIKE IT!


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

I understand what Erik is saying, and I can also see why it may not apply to yearlings.

But what about the 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 yr old bucks that continually have scrawny racks? With ARs, they may continue to pass thier genes and then we may end up with the pond situation he was referring to originally.

North Jeff, IMHO the only reason the 1 buck per season isn't an option is because none of the QDM types want to push that option. With the current status of the deer population in MI, I think it is absurd to allow the harvest of two bucks.

Give a hunter 1 buck tag and he'll think twice about shooting the little spike. It would also allow him to cull the mature fork horn if he chooses.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

Brian S said:


> I understand what Erik is saying, and I can also see why it may not apply to yearlings.
> 
> But what about the 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 yr old bucks that continually have scrawny racks? With ARs, they may continue to pass thier genes and then we may end up with the pond situation he was referring to originally.
> 
> ...


someone correct me if i'm wrong, but - 

currently, there is research pointing to the fact that antler development may be a trait passed by the maternal side - the same way as baldness in humans is generally from the mother's side. much is not known about genetic contributions. but from my understanding, researchers are beginning to agree that there is much more involved, when speaking of large racks, than simply the buck's genetics.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Brian S said:


> But what about the 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 yr old bucks that continually have scrawny racks? With ARs, they may continue to pass thier genes and then we may end up with the pond situation he was referring to originally.


I would say that it is generally a good idea to manage for the norm, rather than the exception. In all my years of deer observation, I have never seen a 3.5 year old buck in Michigan with a scrawny rack. 



Brian S said:


> North Jeff, IMHO the only reason the 1 buck per season isn't an option is because none of the QDM types want to push that option. With the current status of the deer population in MI, I think it is absurd to allow the harvest of two bucks.


Brian, I think you overestimate the influence of QDM'ers on deer management policy. I'm confident that the big resistance to a one-buck limit is economic. One buck would be plenty for me; I look forwark mightily to the harvest of my next antlered buck, partly because I haven't killed one in over 7 years now. A one-buck rule wouldn't bother me in the slightest, provided that the revenue shortfall could be made up.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2004)

Scrawny 2-1/2 and 3-1/2 year olds bucks, are you sure ?

I remember quite well the conversation I had with a group of MDNR field biologists at a workgroup several years ago. The conversaton went to this same subject scrawny (spikes to forkhorns) mature bucks. One biologists from the UP said that he was at a highway check station at the big bridge for years and in all that time never found a buck that was 2-1/2 years old or older with spike antlers, not a single one.

We untrained wanna be biologists take a big license in what we say in the area of deer and what we percieve is out there. 

Example, this year I and my neighbors seen at least 10 differant bucks that were 2-1/2 years old or older. Three of them were shown in the MUCC out of doors show in the youth hunt segmant. I and my friend drove out to the back of my property in early August to discuss the the next food plot operation, there in the July 10th planted soys were three of the biggest bucks ever seen by me. I figure one was 3-1/2 and the bigger two (from 20 to 24 inch outside spread) could have been 4 to 6-1/2 year old kings of the forest. One neighbor reported a 16 pointer with two drop tines seen in late October and I saw two 2-1/2 year olds on the firearm opener. The last buck was a 12 pointer reported to me during he bow season. Nobody as far as I know took any of these bucks. yet I hear that same old refrain, "There ain't no more bucks. We shot all the does and that is the problem".

Another quick example is the farm in Gladwin that is now in CRP and still too open too hunt seriously. Around the middle of June I saw 21 bucks at one time ( got a picture of it) and not a single doe. One was a 3-1/2 year old, six at least were 2-1/2 years old and the rest were yearlings. I told my neigbors about this just before the firearm opener and should them the photo. I told one of them to be on the lookout for that 3-1/2 year old 9 pointer for he traveled near his blind. This guy took this 9 pointer at 7:10 AM opening day and no other bucks were taken or seen by this 6 man hunting group. Yeah, there are no bucks thanks to shooting does and QDM. 

OH! by the way, that 9 pointer was the biggest buck ever taken by that guy in his life or the entire group of six in the 18 years they have hunted that property.

All one needs to do to find out what is really out there is to observe deer in the months of July and August in the open fields. Also during early April drive the roads next to woods to see the deer hungrily munching on the new green grass alongside the roads that were not there the last hunting season.


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

Ed Spin04 said:


> Scrawny 2-1/2 and 3-1/2 year olds bucks, are you sure ?


Yes Ed, I'm pretty sure. I've only taken one 2 1/2 yr old buck and yes, I'd consider him scrawny. Just a small 4 point. Good body size, had a hard time getting him up into the back of the truck by myself, but the "rack" was scrawny.

Also took a 1 1/2 yr old "button" one year. Full grown deer but for some reason, the antlers never developed.

Like Ed said in the beginning, you'd want the 1 1/2 yr old 9 pt to pass on his genes, so wouldn't you also want to get rid of the ones on the opposite end of the spectrum?

Of course, it may be a bit challenging to pick out some of the inferior ones if they've been feeding at the food plot buffet all year.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

But, antlers are the 'last' part that gets nurishment - I don't believe that it is a genitic thing - it's a nutrition thing - 2.5 + deer with 'small' head sets as described are, while not starving, are lacking something in their diet - yes?


ferg....


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Ferg said:


> But, antlers are the 'last' part that gets nurishment - I don't believe that it is a genitic thing - it's a nutrition thing - 2.5 + deer with 'small' head sets as described are, while not starving, are lacking something in their diet - yes?


But then what would the nattering nabobs of negativism have to complain about?


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

Bob S said:


> But then what would the nattering nabobs of negativism have to complain about?


You mean them QDMers? Don't worry about them they'll think of SOMETHING!  

Ferg, I'd agree that nutrition is key to antler growth, but genetics, to a degree, plays a role in everything.


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## lil daddy (Jun 24, 2004)

Well here is my 2 cents.We all talk about 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 yr olds and so on.But reality as i see it is. The does carry the geans from 1 yr to the next and if we shoot them then we are killing off the big gean pool.So what doe do ya shoot?:yikes:


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

*So what doe do ya shoot?*

Every one that stands still in the open long enough for me to get the cross hairs on.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

This year I witnessed more buck sightings during weeks 4-6 of bow season than I witnessed does. That being said I saw alot of does also.
We have been practicing qdm in our neighborhood since Nov. 15 2001 and have witnessed phenominal results. The Malcuit buck is just 1 example of our success.
During the 2nd week of Nov. I passed a dandy 10 pt yearling two mornings in a row. Based on his pattern I new the non-qdm neighbor would probably harvest this buck and he did on the first weekend of gun.
I was disappointed to say the least but got solice in the fact that our efforts in harvesting enough does, creating sanctuaries, and planting food plots probably helped this buck get to that stature. I also stalked to within 30 yds of a brute of an 8 pt. the day before Halloween in the same spot I saw the 10 pt. the 8 would score +-135. Another great 8 was seen the Wed. before gun that would score +-120. All of these bucks I saw within 75 yds. of each other. 
I fully expect to see 10 pt. yearlings become more common place in our co-op as the years go by. In the beginning we adopted a 4 pt on a side rule to get everyone on board and as results started to happen we added a spread credit, ear width, to the mix and now have gone to the spread as our standard. In our area of Eaton Co. we will protect around 80% of the yearlings using the spread vs. 50% if we use the 4pt. standard. This also advances the best yearlings. Thius is what works best for us because we have taken an active role in managing our deer. I am convinced with the small amount of data that we have that we have chosen the right path. As our hunters/landowners become more savy at aging via body characteristics I am excited for the future.
Big T


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## kroppe (May 7, 2000)

Just to chime in regarding the original post. 2 seasons ago I killed a 7 pt, which really was an 8 pt with a broken brow tine. DNR aged it at 1.5 years. Same year (2003) I stopped to look at a road killed buck along US-23 at mile marker 9 or 10 which was a 9 point with similar antler mass as my 7pt. I would guess that 9pt was also a 1.5 yr old deer. This is in mid/south western Monroe County.


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