# DNR updates??????



## ahoude23

Am I just inept in accessing the DNR's website or are they not giving frequent updates. I would assume they would have up to date info on the first page of their website but I cant find the latest info.


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## ridgewalker

_They only update when there is new information on an issue, have a new poll out, or new minutes and agendas are available. Legislative news is changed when there is a change. Often these things take time and there is nothing that can be done about that. It can be frustrating but most government is as slow as watching a tree grow. Just the way it is, unfortunately._


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## Liver and Onions

On the right hand side of the DNR site there is a column entitled "quick Links". Press releases can be found there. About 15 so far this month. You can also look at previous month releases also. I did not see any that dealt with the depopulating of that 2nd deer farm. Does anyone know where that kind of info can be found ? I agree, there should be more updates on test results and action taken regarding the CWD story.

L & O


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## ahoude23

This is such an important issue, they should give a new release every day or two. I'll check the press release area. thanks


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## ahoude23

Just checked press releases, only 5 in September in relation to CWD, none about updates on disease management, actions taken, ect. I am by no means anti DNR, however, this issue seems to not be at the forefront of information reporting with the DNR.


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## blahblah

I agree, it doesn't seem like there is much in the way of news of test results but I guess the rule of thumb would stand that if there was bad news we would hear about it very fast. No news I assume means no more CWD cases.


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## MaryDettloff

This is Mary Dettloff, the DNR's press officer, posting. I just want to let you know that any news we have about CWD is posted immediately. We have made test results available to the media on a continuous basis. And, yes, we only plan on putting out information if we get another positive. So far, *knock on wood* we have not had another positive. However, we still do not know how the first deer became infected. 

Feel free to send me an email at the DNR (easier for me to answer than the 500 phone calls I get every day!). I am happy to answer any questions, or find someone who can.

My email there is [email protected].

Mary Dettloff


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## Liver and Onions

Dang, the DNR press officer on our site ! Many thanks for the reply. I still have an interest in finding out more about the 2nd deer farm that was depopulated even though none of the deer were CWD positive. Things like number of deer, how many trades with the deer farm with the CWD positive animal, were there any criminal charges brought against anyone, etc. Is that info available anywhere on the DNR site and I am just not spotting it anywhere ?
L & O



MaryDettloff said:


> This is Mary Dettloff, the DNR's press officer, posting. I just want to let you know that any news we have about CWD is posted immediately. We have made test results available to the media on a continuous basis. And, yes, we only plan on putting out information if we get another positive. So far, *knock on wood* we have not had another positive. However, we still do not know how the first deer became infected.
> 
> Feel free to send me an email at the DNR (easier for me to answer than the 500 phone calls I get every day!). I am happy to answer any questions, or find someone who can.
> 
> My email there is [email protected].
> 
> Mary Dettloff


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## kristie

In the case where an investigation is still ongoing, information will not be released until the investigation is completed, including trace-in and trace-out information. Criminal investigations are not discussed while investigations are being carried out, or even in court for obvious reasons. Press pieces may be released after a judgement is reached. This is why you have not heard much information about the second facility except that all the deer tested came back negative for CWD. The number of deer at that facility was less than 50.
Very cool that Mary is on the site now....she's a great press officer. Thanks Mary.
Also, with the high volume of deer being tested, both from the wild herd and captive herds, both MDNR and MDA are doing best to share testing info. as we go. If there are any suspects or positives there will be a press release.
Kristie
CWD Surveillance Central
Wildlife Disease Lab.
MDNR


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## Ninja

MaryDettloff said:


> This is Mary Dettloff, the DNR's press officer, posting. I just want to let you know that any news we have about CWD is posted immediately. We have made test results available to the media on a continuous basis. And, yes, we only plan on putting out information if we get another positive. So far, *knock on wood* we have not had another positive. However, we still do not know how the first deer became infected.
> 
> Feel free to send me an email at the DNR (easier for me to answer than the 500 phone calls I get every day!). I am happy to answer any questions, or find someone who can.
> 
> My email there is [email protected].
> 
> Mary Dettloff


 
Thanx Mary.
Based on another post here, is it correct that a criminal investigation is being conducted on the 2nd facility that was depopulated???

Also, why is there no information on the Michigan CWD deer on the Aphis site, the USGS site or any info to be found from the National Vet Lab???
Is this also due to an ongoing criminal investigation?


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## swampbuck

MaryDettloff said:


> This is Mary Dettloff, the DNR's press officer, posting. I just want to let you know that any news we have about CWD is posted immediately. We have made test results available to the media on a continuous basis. And, yes, we only plan on putting out information if we get another positive. So far, *knock on wood* we have not had another positive. However, we still do not know how the first deer became infected.
> 
> Feel free to send me an email at the DNR (easier for me to answer than the 500 phone calls I get every day!). I am happy to answer any questions, or find someone who can.
> 
> My email there is [email protected].
> 
> Mary Dettloff


Thank you for the information, And Welcome to the site. I hope that you join the fine DNR employees already here in providing us with trustworthy and reliable information and answers.


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## ahoude23

Thanks to both Mary and Kristie for contributing to this thread. I think the vast majority of the hunting public would be less skeptical of the DNR if they had easy access to current info on this subject. I have used the ask the DNR portion of their website to ask questions that still have not been answered. I do not have distrust for the DNR, just would like more information.


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## Thor_77

swampbuck said:


> Thank you for the information, And Welcome to the site. I hope that you join the fine DNR employees already here in providing us with trustworthy and reliable information and answers.


Trustworthy and reliable is in doubt on this issue. Your " trained professionals " can't tell you how a 3 year old plus deer in an enclosure got the disease and none of it's pen-mates tested positive for the disease , none of a feed tested positive for the prion contamination.No soil tested positive for the disease according to published accounts. It's as if this one deer had a genetic disposition to trigger a human made testing routine. Without additional contamination you have a case similar to spontaneous human combustion. Science can't explain this CWD case and they can't explain spontaneous human combustion. 

Nowhere in this case can you say sound scientific evidence was employed , only trained guessimates.

Nowhere can the DNR make the connection between bating and CWD and at the same time give food plots a free ride.

Even on this web site individuals promoting QDM , chirp about their success of having over a hundred deer on their property eating their food plots. Sounds like a disease brewing environment waiting to happen.


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## fairfax1

Thank you, Mary Detloff.

I, for one, think it is a prudent move by you to occasionally offer an insight. 

This forum site, like other web sites, is simply another media outlet....like Freep, like LSJ.

You are welcome here......tho as you can readily observe there are any number of _'grassy-knoll"_ conspiracy-philes about, and too many DNR-phobes.

But also some thoughtful and insightful contributors.


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## e. fairbanks

Perhaps Mary and Kristi could give us some updates on our hunters who bring venison from CWD positive deer and elk back to Michigan. If our DNR REQUIRED that hunters (who shoot deer and elk in states and provinces where CWD is present in the wild) bring back the carcass or parts thereof only from animals that are tested negative for CWD, THEN we could honestly say we are "protecting the health of our herd" for present and future generations.


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## Hamilton Reef

MaryDettloff said:


> This is Mary Dettloff, the DNR's press officer, posting.


Hi Mary, good to hear from you. I haven't seen you since the MOWA meeting at Baldwin.
I'm thrilled to see Mary at this site. I've posted dozens of her DNR announcements. You may notice that I try to link updated notices with older articles or announcements when ever possible. Example may be a DNR boat launch closing repair/upgrade announcement, a local article covering the progress, and the announcement that the boat launch has reopened. Mary's DNR announcements and press articles are of great service to the public.


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## Biggsy

I also am having a hard time finding info. So much for the CWD plan saying to keep the public updated. I still would like to know the results of the 300 eradicated free ranging deer from the hot zone that the "plan" called to be immediately eradicated and according to the plan if none tested positive then we could be 95% sure +/-1% that CWD was not in our free ranging deer herd. This is in fact what we are all wanting to know. :rant:


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## MaryDettloff

So far, none of the wild deer we have culled from Kent County, or that hunters have harvested from Kent County -- or any county -- have tested positive.

Does this mean we can relax? No, unfortunately. What it does mean is that we still do not know how the first deer became infected. The first deer was born at the facility in Kent County. It was not imported from another farm or another state (popular rumor). All the deer at that facility were culled and tested, and none turned up positive. 

We have tested more than 300 deer from Kent County now, and all are negative so far. We will continue testing any deer we can get our hands on this fall, so please pass the word to hunters to bring their deer to a DNR check station this fall. It will help us collect an adequate number of samples for our testing.

Mary Dettloff
DNR Public Information Officer


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## Ninja

Mary,
Any info on my questions above???


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## MaryDettloff

Liver and Onions said:


> Dang, the DNR press officer on our site ! Many thanks for the reply. I still have an interest in finding out more about the 2nd deer farm that was depopulated even though none of the deer were CWD positive. Things like number of deer, how many trades with the deer farm with the CWD positive animal, were there any criminal charges brought against anyone, etc. Is that info available anywhere on the DNR site and I am just not spotting it anywhere ?
> L & O


 
Yes, there is an ongoing investigation at the second facility, so I can't offer much comment on that at this time. 

Also, I will get some updated information on the number of deer tested and post it to our web site. The link on our front page to the CWD information contains all the latest news. We get results back every day on deer, and it's been an issue of whether or not I want some kind of "deer test results meter" on the web site. I will issue a release if/when we get another positive, of course. 

I am not sure why USDA and APHIS have no information on their sites. I can ask their media folks the next time I talk to them, though. 

I believe in being pro-active with DNR media. I know there are some here who probably think that is bull. We are doing our best. Remember I am a one-man office for press stuff...and sometimes that is like drinking from a firehose. 

I've read the threads here for a while. I am well aware that some of our critics are here, and that some of our supportive folks are here too. We have worked hard to open up our public information process since I came here. I think the DNR is a lot more open than it used to be, but we still have some thing we can improve upon. 

Again, feel free to send me an email if you have specific questions I can answer, or if I can find answers for you. 

Mary Dettloff


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## MaryDettloff

e. fairbanks said:


> Perhaps Mary and Kristi could give us some updates on our hunters who bring venison from CWD positive deer and elk back to Michigan. If our DNR REQUIRED that hunters (who shoot deer and elk in states and provinces where CWD is present in the wild) bring back the carcass or parts thereof only from animals that are tested negative for CWD, THEN we could honestly say we are "protecting the health of our herd" for present and future generations.


We will have a press release out this week, I am hoping, about this. It currently is law in our state that you can only bring back deboned meat, antlers and the cape. You cannot bring back the entire animal from another state with CWD. Do we have 100 percent compliance on that? No. And it is a problem we are trying to address from both a public education and a law enforcement angle. 

Mary Dettloff
DNR Public Information Officer


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## kristie

Thanks Mary

Kristie

(looks like I have some data to send you)


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## e. fairbanks

Found in my voluminous and disorganized files; DNR's Dr. Steve Shmitt on CWD positive carcasses or parts thereof brought back by hunters (2004?)
"all hunters were contacted, most gave meat to Wildlife Disease Lab for incineration, others used licensed landfill. of 29 deer and 1 elk (including 1 illegally imported carcass not to mention CWD infected venison brought back by NRC commissioner) 7 hunters could not be reached"
7 divided by 30 = 23%
In the past I have contacted the DNR, the MDA, the governor, the USDA, AND YOU, MARY, ARE THE SECOND RESPONDENT TO THIS SITUATION. (THE OTHER WAS A POLITICIAN)


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## ahoude23

Mary, 

Thank you, this is the type of information I believe the public (both hunting and non hunting) would like to hear. I hope the DNR website gets frequent updates. This would help eliminate some of the BS we all hear. Don't think it would help with some of the anti-DNR skeptics though.


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## Direwolfe

There are some questions on this site that haven't been answered:

Where does the DNR keep the cougars they periodically let roam free?

How many of those black helicopters does the DNR have?

Where in the UP will the DNR be planting the next CWD positive deer to finally get baiting banned there too?

You can tell us, we'll keep it secret.


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## old school

Its very odd that one deer in a pen out of the whole fenced in herd had CWD. Makes one wonder again, with almost 1000 deer tested and no CWD what is going on?? Is it not transfered as easily as it is said to be?? Seems other deer in contact with that infected deer that one if not more would have been infected seeing it was a closed in area.


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## William H Bonney

ahoude23 said:


> Mary,
> 
> Thank you, this is the type of information I believe the public (both hunting and non hunting) would like to hear. I hope the DNR website gets frequent updates. This would help eliminate some of the BS we all hear. Don't think it would help with some of the anti-DNR skeptics though.


With all due respect to Mary and yourself,, none of this information is something we _wouldn't_ have heard otherwise. The problem that "DNR skeptic's" have is with the "decision's",, not the mode that they get relayed to us.


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## kristie

good point


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## Munsterlndr

MaryDettloff said:


> It currently is law in our state that you can only bring back deboned meat, antlers and the cape. You cannot bring back the entire animal from another state with CWD.


In light of the fact that research has demonstrated that prions exist in both muscle tissue _(*Infectious prions discovered in deer muscle. *The Lancet, Quirk) _and blood (_*Infectious Prions In The Saliva And Blood *__[SIZE=+1]*Of Deer With Chronic Wasting Disease*, Science, [/SIZE]Mathiason et. al.) _and that blood is a possible vector for transmission, Michigan's current policy seems somewhat arbitrary and inconsistent in allowing blood bearing tissues that could potentially be harboring prions into Michigan from an animal harvested in States where CWD is found. I realize that you don't make policy but perhaps you could pass this along and get a comment from somebody regarding why the current policy has not been modified in light of recent discoveries about the presence of prions in tissues other than brain, lymph and spinal cord tissues.


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## ahoude23

William H Bonney said:


> With all due respect to Mary and yourself,, none of this information is something we _wouldn't_ have heard otherwise. The problem that "DNR skeptic's" have is with the "decision's",, not the mode that they get relayed to us.



Good point, I think the point I was trying to make is that silence from the DNR or lack of easily obtainable info directly from the DNR breeds the conspiracy theories. I am not a skeptic of the DNR by any means. I work in a public service job and the decisions my co-workers and I make on a daily basis are frequently questioned by people who no not understand the tactics and stragety used in my profession. I think we should hear this information from DNR, via the E-Mails I recieve or via CWD updates on the web. That lends a lot of credability to the information I have heard. My father in law once told me the DNR established the TB area so they could kill off the deer and make more room for elk. Obvious BS however, that is the type of stuff out there. Direct DNR info could help with this type of stuff.


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## Hamilton Reef

I've had many personal conversations with DNR & DEQ staff from the directors to field technicians. I've always stress the importance of getting the correct information to the M-S site directly or through and others at this site. I may not like or agree with every decision announcement, but that is normal and I can accept that.


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## Liver and Onions

MaryDettloff said:


> Yes, there is an ongoing investigation at the second facility, so I can't offer much comment on that at this time.
> ....................
> Again, feel free to send me an email if you have specific questions I can answer, or if I can find answers for you.
> Mary Dettloff


Thanks.

L & O


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## solohunter

I was part of a conversation with a DNR bioligist who admitted ( during grilling) that the reason they do not TB check button buck/yearling heads was that while they might be infected they had not had it long enough to show up in the lymph glands for testing ?? could this be the same thing for CWD as well??


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## markbarth

MaryDettloff said:


> Yes, there is an ongoing investigation at the second facility, so I can't offer much comment on that at this time.
> 
> Also, I will get some updated information on the number of deer tested and post it to our web site. The link on our front page to the CWD information contains all the latest news. We get results back every day on deer, and it's been an issue of whether or not I want some kind of "deer test results meter" on the web site. I will issue a release if/when we get another positive, of course.
> 
> I am not sure why USDA and APHIS have no information on their sites. I can ask their media folks the next time I talk to them, though.
> 
> I believe in being pro-active with DNR media. I know there are some here who probably think that is bull. We are doing our best. Remember I am a one-man office for press stuff...and sometimes that is like drinking from a firehose.
> 
> I've read the threads here for a while. I am well aware that some of our critics are here, and that some of our supportive folks are here too. We have worked hard to open up our public information process since I came here. I think the DNR is a lot more open than it used to be, but we still have some thing we can improve upon.
> 
> Again, feel free to send me an email if you have specific questions I can answer, or if I can find answers for you.
> 
> Mary Dettloff


 
In the first case of the poc facility, the deer was tested twice on aug. 22nd at msu diagnostic lab. then confirmed by Aug 25th from NVLS in Ames, Ia. ban imposed on Aug. 26th. On Sept, 9th Drs. Scmitt & Halstead presentented a comprehensive power point presentation to the Tourism,Outdoor Recreation&Natural Resources Committee. That's just 2 weeks after the results! so, why now is there still an "on going investigation" that has been oblivously going on more time than the original case? is it because of foia info or is because the dnr knows the results and doesn't want to make them public for fear that it does make it look like over reaction and will evenmore hurt their credibility with the public?


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## William H Bonney

markbarth said:


> In the first case of the poc facility, the deer was tested twice on aug. 22nd at msu diagnostic lab. then confirmed by Aug 25th from NVLS in Ames, Ia. ban imposed on Aug. 26th. On Sept, 9th Drs. Scmitt & Halstead presentented a comprehensive power point presentation to the Tourism,Outdoor Recreation&Natural Resources Committee. That's just 2 weeks after the results! so, why now is there still an "on going investigation" that has been oblivously going on more time than the original case? is it because of foia info or is because the dnr knows the results and doesn't want to make them public for fear that it does make it look like over reaction and will evenmore hurt their credibility with the public?


If I had to guess,, I'm pretty sure that "on going investigation" is code for "criminal investigation". I don't think anyone wants to tip their hand just yet.


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## kristie

solohunter said:


> I was part of a conversation with a DNR bioligist who admitted ( during grilling) that the reason they do not TB check button buck/yearling heads was that while they might be infected they had not had it long enough to show up in the lymph glands for testing ?? could this be the same thing for CWD as well??


pretty sure you are on the right track,
I'll see if I can find the research paper to site, regarding date of infection time/migration of abnormal prions to lymph tissue, just may take a few, as I'm a bit slammed cutting on deer heads........

Kristie


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## Ninja

markbarth said:


> In the first case of the poc facility, the deer was tested twice on aug. 22nd at msu diagnostic lab. then confirmed by Aug 25th from NVLS in Ames, Ia. ban imposed on Aug. 26th.


Are you sure about this?
I believe the DNR received the head of the infected deer well before Aug. 22nd.


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## Munsterlndr

solohunter said:


> I was part of a conversation with a DNR bioligist who admitted ( during grilling) that the reason they do not TB check button buck/yearling heads was that while they might be infected they had not had it long enough to show up in the lymph glands for testing ?? could this be the same thing for CWD as well??


Yes, very likely.

_"The youngest animal diagnosed with clinical CWD was 17 months old, suggesting 16-17 months may be the minimum natural incubation period. Among deer and elk residing in facilities with a long history of CWD, most natural cases occur in 2-7 year-old animals." _*CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE: IMPLICATIONS AND CHALLENGES FOR WILDLIFE MANAGERS. Unpublished paper presented at the NAWNRC. Elizibeth Williams, Michael Miller, E. Thom Thorne)*

I have a PDF of this paper if anyone is interested.


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## kristie

thanks Munster


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## markbarth

Ninja said:


> Are you sure about this?
> I believe the DNR received the head of the infected deer well before Aug. 22nd.


ninja, this info was testified by drs. halstead and scmitt that the deer was tested on aug. 22nd at msu


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## hunterdude772

Hey gang!
I just made my first vote with my wallet and it felt so good!!
I called and canceled my subscription, and got a refund, to Michigan Outdoor News.
When asked why, I told them "I thought they were a news reporting publication and not an extension of DNR propaganda. And that I did not want to support DNR propaganda".
The poor girl sounded depressed like this wasn't the first call she had gotten.
If you get this publication, and have read it, the blatant bias should be obvious.
If you believe the same way, I encourage you to call 1-800-535-5191 and get a refund.

Just a side note:
Here is a headline on the front page.
"Rule changes could affect deer harvest"
Really?
Who would have guessed?
DUH!


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## north-bound

hunterdude772 said:


> Hey gang!
> I just made my first vote with my wallet and it felt so good!!
> I called and canceled my subscription, and got a refund, to Michigan Outdoor News.
> When asked why, I told them "I thought they were a news reporting publication and not an extension of DNR propaganda. And that I did not want to support DNR propaganda".
> The poor girl sounded depressed like this wasn't the first call she had gotten.
> If you get this publication, and have read it, the blatant bias should be obvious.
> If you believe the same way, I encourage you to call 1-800-535-5191 and get a refund.
> 
> Just a side note:
> Here is a headline on the front page.
> "Rule changes could affect deer harvest"
> Really?
> Who would have guessed?
> DUH!


 You are right she has heard it before. Me and about 5 other guys i know called and canceled it.


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## Bob S

scott kavanaugh said:


> With groups and individuals managing to stockpile deer, despite what the dnr wants.


Scott, since 2000 I have killed 15 does. How have your population control efforts been during that time?


> They are a small little misguided blemish the majority of hunters are not proud of.


The majority of hunters wish they could have the quality of hunting we do. The rest of you just can't seem to hide your jealousy.


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## north-bound

The majority of hunters wish they could have the quality of hunting we do. The rest of you just can't seem to hide your jealousy.[/quote]
We do?? Jealousy??:lol::lol::lol:


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## Thor_77

O K , Lets talk politics , trust me it will fit in. I'm not concerned right now with the baiting public , or the nonproperty owners turning on the food plot Gomer's. Maybe that's part of the plan to get one group hunters attacking another. We should fight another time.

I don't give a rats A** what some biologist has to say about the legal powers of the DNR , that could change overnight with or without Mr. Clutes understanding. 
What I do find alarming is the fact that the Legislature is stepping in to some of these issues and are being ignored by an oversight committee ( NRC ). Okay here's where the politics start . If Obama wins , Ms. Granholm will probably get appointed to some office on the federal level. That means Mr. Cherry will be the next governor , while he does have a hunting and gun rights supportive background , you might want to go look it who his friends are , MUCC and individuals like fat Bob Garner. Also Mr Cherry isn't just another pretty face , so his ability to get reelected will come in the question. The point is where does the new governor stand on these issues about DNR mismanagement and the absolute outrageous behavior of the NRC. Does he continue to have nitwits running the asylum in the DNR and on the natural resources commission or does he make changes.

Pardon the pun , but there's enough ammunition indicating that you have a large group of unqualified individuals involved with resource management in the state and their track record is absolutely hideous.


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## William H Bonney

Bob S said:


> Scott, since 2000 I have killed 15 does. How have your population control efforts been during that time?
> The majority of hunters wish they could have the quality of hunting we do. The rest of you just can't seem to hide your jealousy.


Ahhhh, finally... the _attitude_ come's out......:lol:

This is the biggest downfall of the whole organization.... glad to see you're keeping up the tradition,,, Bob.


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## Gulbrandsen

I have been doing a lot of reading on this site and getting everyones veiws on all of this baiting ban. Sad to see hunters against hunters and it seems there is more and more of it all the time. PETA must be thrilled about hunters being divided, after all it makes things a lot more easier to ban our methods if half the hunters agree with them. I am not from Michigan but I hope we in Ontario never have to go through this. We are regulated to death already and everything and any descion made is politically driven. In some cases science isnt a study any more its a personal opinion or hidden agenda. In my opinion and I am no biologist , disease transmission is not the reason for bait being banned . Whitetails are a social animal and they just like being amongst each other, there is no way to prevent them from interacting with each other. They share to many things . I am surprised that QDMA support this ban, if baiting is a thing of the past now, just where is the next target where deer group up and meet and is it a possable risk for disease transmission ? The anti's and PETA will not stop with just the baiting , I am sure they have a long list of other hunting practices they are eventually going after. If they can divide the hunters first that makes there job easier. I am not going to jump on the PETA band wagon and help there cause.


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## johnhunter

Bob S said:


> Scott, since 2000 I have killed 15 does. How have your population control efforts been during that time?
> The majority of hunters wish they could have the quality of hunting we do. The rest of you just can't seem to hide your jealousy.


Bob, you're a great steward, but a piker! We've taken over sixty does and exactly ONE buck since 2000 on my farm(wonder why I get such a kick out of guys that accuse QDM'ers of being antler-obsessed?). Yeah, we're really stockpiling deer. Some guys should be embarassed to keepmakingassesof themselves on here.


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## swampbuck

Bob S said:


> Scott, since 2000 I have killed 15 does. How have your population control efforts been during that time?
> The majority of hunters wish they could have the quality of hunting we do. The rest of you just can't seem to hide your jealousy.


 How many additional deer were added or protected due to fawn recruitment and protection from your neighbors. Due to habitatat improvement?

since 2000 how many additional deer have lived on your land compared to pre 2000 numbers?


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## Munsterlndr

Gulbrandsen said:


> The anti's and PETA will not stop with just the baiting , I am sure they have a long list of other hunting practices they are eventually going after. If they can divide the hunters first that makes there job easier. I am not going to jump on the PETA band wagon and help there cause.


Bowhunting will be the next target for PETA/Anti's to go after, under the guise of too many wounded/maimed deer, especially with bait being banned. One of the major justifications for bait is that it allows archers to lure deer within range and position them for a clean kill. Bowhunting being a potential target for the anti's is a major reason that full inclusion for crossbows is a good idea, it would both increase the bowhunting ranks providing a larger lobby with more political clout and also deflect claims that bows are not accurate enough to humanly harvest deer. Of course, being from Ontario, you guys are already light years ahead of us on that issue.


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## glockman55

Gulbrandsen said:


> I have been doing a lot of reading on this site and getting everyones veiws on all of this baiting ban. Sad to see hunters against hunters and it seems there is more and more of it all the time. PETA must be thrilled about hunters being divided, after all it makes things a lot more easier to ban our methods if half the hunters agree with them. I am not from Michigan but I hope we in Ontario never have to go through this. We are regulated to death already and everything and any descion made is politically driven. In some cases science isnt a study any more its a personal opinion or hidden agenda. In my opinion and I am no biologist , disease transmission is not the reason for bait being banned . Whitetails are a social animal and they just like being amongst each other, there is no way to prevent them from interacting with each other. They share to many things . I am surprised that QDMA support this ban, if baiting is a thing of the past now, just where is the next target where deer group up and meet and is it a possable risk for disease transmission ? The anti's and PETA will not stop with just the baiting , I am sure they have a long list of other hunting practices they are eventually going after. If they can divide the hunters first that makes there job easier. I am not going to jump on the PETA band wagon and help there cause.


Good Post. While everyone tries to push their way of doing what's right, we do make easy targets for PETA..keep fighting over stupid issues and maybe none of us will hunting in the future.
There's always GOLF.:SHOCKED:


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## mitchk2007

I hardly think you represent the QDM majority and 60 does in 8 yrs LOL, try 30 to 50 per year along with 12-18 3.5 yr plus bucks every year.


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## Gulbrandsen

PETA doesnt like any killing of animals period. They dont care how we are killing them , they dont want us doing it all. Those who think that the way they hunt or the methods they use are not in jeopardy had better give there head a shake. PETA wants to ban those sticky glue traps for mice , do you think there ok with some of our hunting practices. There should be no issues or debates between hunters such as Bait vs. no bait , food plot vs. no food plot, rifle hunters vs bow hunters,etc. In the eyes of PETA we are all looked at in the same catagory. Its ok to compare or discuss different ways of hunting but to join PETA and applaud what once was a legal practice is now illegal? It would be nice for once when a ban of any kind of any hunting practice surfaces that all hunters would oppose it. Let the anti's and PETA know its not going to be easy. They are very clever on how they do things and chip away a little bit at a time. They are outthinking us and winning. Are there people out there that actually think that without baits there will be no more disease?


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## moabhunting

Don't take this as a personal bash 

Peta keeps outhinking us and winning. :lol: They don't even need to try with all of the Liberal's and Democrats that we elect.
Nevermind excuse's after excuse's Granholm.....Look which party controls Michigan all throughout this welfare-bailout State.

This lazy handout state is so hard up for money it has a political agenda for everything that can hustle up some $$$$. So tired of hearing about PETA....research which party is in Bed with Peta and has more in common with them. But you are right we are our own worst enemy.
Vote Democrat....it is easier than getting a Job!


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## Bob S

swampbuck said:


> How many additional deer were added or protected due to fawn recruitment and protection from your neighbors. Due to habitatat improvement?


My neighbors don't do any habitat improvements. Both of my neighbors practice traditional management. I have State land on the other two sides of my place with no public land antlerless permits. My hunters are shooting more does than any property that borders my place.



> since 2000 how many additional deer have lived on your land compared to pre 2000 numbers?


I bought my place in 2000. That is why I used that as a beginning number. Also, I have 42 acres, no deer live on my property. They only use my land as part of their range. 

Improving the habitat will put does on my land for longer periods of time where I can attempt to remove more of them from the population. Otherwise they would spend more time on the surrounding land where no one will shoot them.


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## scott kavanaugh

Gulbrandsen said:


> PETA doesnt like any killing of animals period. They dont care how we are killing them , they dont want us doing it all. Those who think that the way they hunt or the methods they use are not in jeopardy had better give there head a shake. PETA wants to ban those sticky glue traps for mice , do you think there ok with some of our hunting practices. There should be no issues or debates between hunters such as Bait vs. no bait , food plot vs. no food plot, rifle hunters vs bow hunters,etc. In the eyes of PETA we are all looked at in the same catagory. Its ok to compare or discuss different ways of hunting but to join PETA and applaud what once was a legal practice is now illegal? It would be nice for once when a ban of any kind of any hunting practice surfaces that all hunters would oppose it. Let the anti's and PETA know its not going to be easy. They are very clever on how they do things and chip away a little bit at a time. They are outthinking us and winning. Are there people out there that actually think that without baits there will be no more disease?


I couldn't agree more Gulbrandsen, but if indeed you have members of your family that are self centered/serving and compromising of the majorities position, and they will not listen to reason. You either have to live with it, limit your association with them, end it, or find a way to make them conform.


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## Bob S

farmlegend said:


> Bob, you're a great steward, but a piker! We've taken over sixty does and exactly ONE buck since 2000 on my farm(wonder why I get such a kick out of guys that accuse QDM'ers of being antler-obsessed?). Yeah, we're really stockpiling deer. Some guys should be embarassed to keepmakingassesof themselves on here.


Dan, that is my personal harvest number, not what others have taken on my place. You also get help from DMAP's, I can't get them. Some years I would love to shoot more does but have been out of permits. Last year my antlerless permits were gone on November 16, and I still ended up with more does killed than all 4 hunters on my neighbors place combined.

I agree with you, I do really get a kick out of these guys who think us doe killers are stockpiling deer. There was a time a few years ago on this board where QDMA was called a doe killing organization. I guess that argument no longer fits an agenda, so now we are deer stock pilers.


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## hunterdude772

Bob S
I must assume that as a Certified QDMA Deer Steward, Level I member for MQDM that you represent the doctrine of your organization. Which by your posts must be childish and immature at best. The mentality of your posts would be disgusting to any group whose members are over 4 years old.

Neither the DNR nor the NRC have the authority to regulate or ban food plots.
Where you wiping your brow as you said this? Because you feel exempt from the DNR's mindless games. Don't be so sure.
There no ethical difference between your food plots and someones bait pile. See if you can follow me.

Both are deliberately placed by humans for the following purposes: To attract, feed, view and harvest wild deer. The one and only difference is how they start. Yours is placed below the ground and theirs is placed on the ground. Once yours pops out of the ground you are no better or worse that a baiter. Do you understand that or do I need to draw you some pictures?

farmlegend (in his own mind)
Your connection to QDM was not hard to quess. Your know it all, arrogant posts are a joke. You can never present facts that can be documented. Only ignorant, worthless foam from the mouth. You can't even respect a fellow QDM'er. "Bob, you're a great steward, but a piker"! Try a little diplomacy and maybe someone here could take you seriously.

scott kavanaugh
I know these meatheads can really get on your nerves but I'd suggest not even wasting your breath on these clowns. The more they ramble the more they give MQDM (Michigan Quacks Deer Management) a bad name. Our time may be better spent studying the web page: www2.jsonline.com/news/state/cwd/
We don't need to reinvent the wheel. We can learn from what happened in Wisconsin and how they got their baiting back. That will leave these guys chewing on their cud. Just a thought buddy.


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## scott kavanaugh

Bob S said:


> My neighbors don't do any habitat improvements. Both of my neighbors practice traditional management. I have State land on the other two sides of my place with no public land antlerless permits. My hunters are shooting more does than any property that borders my place.
> 
> I bought my place in 2000. That is why I used that as a beginning number. Also, I have 42 acres, no deer live on my property. They only use my land as part of their range.
> 
> Improving the habitat will put does on my land for longer periods of time where I can attempt to remove more of them from the population. Otherwise they would spend more time on the surrounding land where no one will shoot them.


So your obviously in an overpopulated DMU according to the DNR, hence private land doe pemits which your utiliziing. However because your an up and comming Quality Deer Manager you are improving the habitat so you can take out more does "THAT DONT LIVE ON YOUR 42 ACRES".

The deer your shooting are most likely comming straight off the state land that doesn't have doe permits because it isn't overpopulated. Your neighbors and the guys on the state land aren't shooting at every doe because their traditional, so I'm sure your does aren't comming from there.

With that mentality, your probably exstatic about the ban. You'll probably chomping at the bit to post all kinds of managment pictures, while you deplete the surrounding public land of deer.

Oh, and just out of curiosity Mr. deer manager. Did you ever happen to think that bow hunters on the state land can kill does, if you leave any????


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## mitchk2007

It does seem that the same group have an answer for everything but there answers are limited by there own experience.


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## swoosh

scott kavanaugh said:


> So what is it exactly, do you think your accomplishing? neighbors # pretty good to me. *They didn't shoot 5 does, which would be like taking 15 deer out of the woods.* Then say, we need to lace up our bootstraps and make habitat improvements so we can kill more does next year. Hee Hee.


 
Dude do you drive a car from the 50' also:lol:

BTW I love how when a law goes against the "norm" here in MI how it becomes consiprcy. I think it happen way to fast IMO, but after talking to local DNR biologist I see their point.

As for MI hunters who care, well they are far and few between. It is what it is, most in MI care about killing and seeing deer. Just look how we have reacted to doe permits, TB and what the DNR has suggested. Everything is a conspircy to stop hunters in MI from killing deer. It's the Insurance company's, it's QDM, it's aliens, LOL.

Here is my suggestion, just hunt and have fun.


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## Bob S

scott kavanaugh said:


> It's just habitat improvements, that allows you to deplete the surrounding area of deer.





scott kavanaugh said:


> neighbors # pretty good to me.


So which is it Scott? How can my neighbor's numbers look so good if I am depleting the surrounding area of deer?


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## MaryDettloff

As of Oct. 31, the Diagnostic Center for Population and Animal Health has tested 2,396 wild deer statewide for chronic wasting disease. Of those, 2,204 have tested negative for CWD. We are awaiting results on 192. 

As you may understand, these numbers change daily. We are going to start posting them weekly and by county on our Web site.

Again, if you have questions, feel free to email me at [email protected].

Mary Dettloff
Public Information Officer
Department of Natural Resources


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## swoosh

MaryDettloff said:


> As of Oct. 31, the Diagnostic Center for Population and Animal Health has tested 2,396 wild deer statewide for chronic wasting disease. Of those, 2,204 have tested negative for CWD. We are awaiting results on 192.
> 
> As you may understand, these numbers change daily. We are going to start posting them weekly and by county on our Web site.
> 
> Again, if you have questions, feel free to email me at [email protected].
> 
> Mary Dettloff
> Public Information Officer
> Department of Natural Resources


I have some questions

Do you get to work in a black Helo?

What have you done with Elivis?

Where's waldo?

Just so you know, not all of us are nuts jobs Keep up the good work


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## Beavervet

scott kavanaugh said:


> Sorry I didn't get back to you about going Markbarth, I knew it would be a scham. Thanks for trying.
> 
> So I don't get it. Was he saying that there was going to be cwd in our deer because they banned baiting, does he think this is a joke, was he trying to make it a joke, do they already know theres cwd in our wild deer, did they not care what the questions were that was being asked?:yikes:
> 
> So Ferg, you think I was passing on some great opportunity to gain knowledge and insight into this situation. Hell, I think I'd learn more sitting down with you, and listening to stories about your mom swearing.:lol:


 To shed light on the great car crash CWD relationship I called Wisconsin where they have spent 35 million dollars and tested 140,000 deer for CWD and have not been able to find a higher percentage of positive deer in the car crash deer. Actually very, very few of the positive CWD deer in Wisconsin are clinically sick at all. I don't know if our DNR biologists took the time to call Wisconsin's before expressing their theory


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## 6inchtrack

Mary Dettloff
Public Information Officer
Department of Natural Resources

Mary[/COLOR]

The deer that was found with CWD was in an incloser with 5O other deer, all these remaining deer were killed and tested and no other deer tested positive. Now 2,204 have tested negative for CWD. 

I read that the body of the suspect deer was buried at the site, and that the DNR did not want to remove it for fear of releasing prions, Could a core sample of the burial site be taken and tested.
Could you talk with Steven L. Halstead, State Veterinarian and sugest this.
At one point he was under the impresion that there was not a test for soil, but there is;
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/84/i09/8409prions.html

http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU20...08-A-03029.pdf


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## solohunter

I think this might be a factor in the lack of positive cwd deer in the testing of the facility, Health of the deer will also play a factor in this also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by *solohunter*  
_I was part of a conversation with a DNR bioligist who admitted ( during grilling) that the reason they do not TB check button buck/yearling heads was that while they might be infected they had not had it long enough to show up in the lymph glands for testing ?? could this be the same thing for CWD as well??_

Yes, very likely.

_"The youngest animal diagnosed with clinical CWD was 17 months old, suggesting 16-17 months may be the minimum natural incubation period. Among deer and elk residing in facilities with a long history of CWD, most natural cases occur in 2-7 year-old animals." _*CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE: IMPLICATIONS AND CHALLENGES FOR WILDLIFE MANAGERS. Unpublished paper presented at the NAWNRC. Elizibeth Williams, Michael Miller, E. Thom Thorne)*

I have a PDF of this paper if anyone is interested.

__________________
Munsterlndr


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## solohunter

Quote:
Originally Posted by *kristie*  
_pretty sure you are on the right track,
I'll see if I can find the research paper to site, regarding date of infection time/migration of abnormal prions to lymph tissue, just may take a few, as I'm a bit slammed cutting on deer heads........

Kristie_

health and resistance might also play a factor in it? just an uneducated guess  and with that thought the one in kent county might have been weak and it just showed up sooner,, so other might have been infected and not had it show up in lymph Gland testing??


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## solohunter

testing for TB and CWD might only be effective if the animal has been infected for maybe 16 months!!! ouch!! so how many positives have been missed??


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## Nick Adams

solohunter said:


> testing for TB and CWD might only be effective if the animal has been infected for maybe 16 months!!! ouch!! so how many positives have been missed??


Given that they have to kill the deer in order to test it, none. 

-na


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## scott kavanaugh

swoosh said:


> Dude do you drive a car from the 50' also:lol:
> 
> BTW I love how when a law goes against the "norm" here in MI how it becomes consiprcy. I think it happen way to fast IMO, but after talking to local DNR biologist I see their point.
> 
> As for MI hunters who care, well they are far and few between. It is what it is, most in MI care about killing and seeing deer. Just look how we have reacted to doe permits, TB and what the DNR has suggested. Everything is a conspircy to stop hunters in MI from killing deer. It's the Insurance company's, it's QDM, it's aliens, LOL.
> 
> Here is my suggestion, just hunt and have fun.


No, I try to walk It's better for the enviorment. Great suggestion, I have one for you. If you hold your deer a little farther in front of you, the rack will seem bigger.


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## scott kavanaugh

Bob S said:


> So which is it Scott? How can my neighbor's numbers look so good if I am depleting the surrounding area of deer?


Bob I know were on opposite ends of the spectrum, but we are on the same planet. I'm just reading what you write, nothing personal.

They killed 3 bucks 1 button and 1 doe last year on 40 acers. A little heavy maybe , but it's their property.

You state you have 42 acres that no deer live on. Bordered by 2 neighbors and state land on the other two sides.

There are no doe permits on the state land. (Obviously because numbers are low.)

You personally have killed 15 does since 2000 off the 42 acres

You told Dan 15 was your personal number not what others had taken

So your averaging 2 does a year without the help of your hunters.

Told Swampbuck that your hunters are shooting more does than any property that boarders my place.

You go on to say your making habitat improvments so does will spend more time on your property allowing you to kill more.

Told Farmlegend you killed more does by Nov.16th than all 4 hunters on my neighbors place combined last year.

So by all logic your group is killing at least 3 or 4 does a year and your looking to ramp up production.

so 4bucks+1doex3=7 4doex3=12 don't know about your bucks


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## Ninja

solohunter said:


> I think this might be a factor in the lack of positive cwd deer in the testing of the facility, Health of the deer will also play a factor in this also.
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *solohunter*
> _I was part of a conversation with a DNR bioligist who admitted ( during grilling) that the reason they do not TB check button buck/yearling heads was that while they might be infected they had not had it long enough to show up in the lymph glands for testing ?? could this be the same thing for CWD as well??_
> 
> Yes, very likely.
> 
> _"The youngest animal diagnosed with clinical CWD was 17 months old, suggesting 16-17 months may be the minimum natural incubation period. Among deer and elk residing in facilities with a long history of CWD, most natural cases occur in 2-7 year-old animals." _*CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE: IMPLICATIONS AND CHALLENGES FOR WILDLIFE MANAGERS. Unpublished paper presented at the NAWNRC. Elizibeth Williams, Michael Miller, E. Thom Thorne)*
> 
> I have a PDF of this paper if anyone is interested.
> 
> __________________
> Munsterlndr


 
But wait....this obviously is not true, as new scientific information has come to light, according to the man who gets most of his information from the world's Leading Authority on CWD, Dr. Mike Miller.
Here is an excerpt from the NRC Meeting held in September.

_*Dr. Schmitt *said that baiting and feeding perpetuates disease transmission.* Within 42 hours of contact with CWD, disease detection can occur.* Tissue samples have been collected from all depopulated animals and DNA traces can be conducted. He indicated that the disease was not likely a result of spontaneous mutation. _

__


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## swoosh

scott kavanaugh said:


> No, I try to walk It's better for the enviorment. Great suggestion, I have one for you. If you hold your deer a little farther in front of you, the rack will seem bigger.


When you shoot them in the 170's you don't have too:lol:

What's better for enviorment or what's better for you Funny we have heard 0 from folks about disease until baiting was banned.

I will ask you what I ask B & N:

What group have you joined that helps out the enviorment before the ban?

How much money out of your pocket have you spent to help the enviorment?

How much time have you spent improving the enviorment before the ban?


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## solohunter

Nick Adams said:


> Given that they have to kill the deer in order to test it, none.
> 
> -na


they do have a live testing method, but it involves a blood draw, I saw a paper on it a while back they tried about 5 diff testing of blood draws on captured wild cervids in the TB core area, collared them and ear tagged them for later killing if they came back positive. the later "depopulation" of positives didnt go well,,, the testing of netted deer is risky at best,, plus they must have baited them into a group:yikes:,,,


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## solohunter

Ninja said:


> But wait....this obviously is not true, as new scientific information has come to light, according to the man who gets most of his information from the world's Leading Authority on CWD, Dr. Mike Miller.
> Here is an excerpt from the NRC Meeting held in September.
> 
> _*Dr. Schmitt *said that baiting and feeding perpetuates disease transmission.* Within 42 hours of contact with CWD, disease detection can occur.* Tissue samples have been collected from all depopulated animals and DNA traces can be conducted. He indicated that the disease was not likely a result of spontaneous mutation. _
> 
> __


I think Dr sh(* need to re read millers research papers,, maybe munster can refresh his memory with the PDF.


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## Bob S

scott kavanaugh said:


> There are no doe permits on the state land. (Obviously because numbers are low.)


Deer numbers can't be all that low. Private land antlerless permits have risen for the second consecutive year and the 2008 limit is double the 2006 limit. It looks like there need to be more land owners aggressively shooting does like we are.


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## Scout 2

Hey Bob S you need to open your gate. The last 2 days there were deer standing in front of it. I guess they wanted in.


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## scott kavanaugh

swoosh said:


> When you shoot them in the 170's you don't have too:lol:
> 
> What's better for enviorment or what's better for you Funny we have heard 0 from folks about disease until baiting was banned.
> 
> I will ask you what I ask B & N:
> 
> What group have you joined that helps out the enviorment before the ban?
> 
> How much money out of your pocket have you spent to help the enviorment?
> 
> How much time have you spent improving the enviorment before the ban?


Wow - oooh, 170Lbs is that why they gave you that shinny cup???????

It would be the same wouldn't it? You trying to trick me????

Dude hello, have you been listening to the stories of the decimation of the deer heard & economy in northern michigan by the DNR in the name of TB. Where have you been? If you mean QDM being involved, people have been talking about the untouchable pockets of heavy concentrations created by them for years.

Whats a B&N - a sandwich? - I'll take TWO.

I'm a democrat. Actually I think thats a party. I work well independently and with groups, I seldom agree with everything a group stands for, so I don't join.

1000.00 a year easy.

80 hrs a year easy. 

Do I get the job???????????:lol:


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## scott kavanaugh

Bob S said:


> Deer numbers can't be all that low. Private land antlerless permits have risen for the second consecutive year and the 2008 limit is double the 2006 limit. It looks like there need to be more land owners aggressively shooting does like we are.


You know what bob, this is an important thread to keep open, and I don't think we can get there from here. I agree to disagree for now and move on.:chillin:


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## swoosh

scott kavanaugh said:


> Wow - oooh, 170Lbs is that why they gave you that shinny cup???????
> 
> It would be the same wouldn't it? You trying to trick me????
> 
> Dude hello, have you been listening to the stories of the decimation of the deer heard & economy in northern michigan by the DNR in the name of TB. Where have you been? If you mean QDM being involved, people have been talking about the untouchable pockets of heavy concentrations created by them for years.
> 
> Whats a B&N - a sandwich? - I'll take TWO.
> 
> I'm a democrat. Actually I think thats a party. I work well independently and with groups, I seldom agree with everything a group stands for, so I don't join.
> 
> 1000.00 a year easy.
> 
> 80 hrs a year easy.
> 
> Do I get the job???????????:lol:


Nope:lol:

To whom does this 1000.00 dollars go? 
80 hours doing what?

BTW that is Mitch Rompala in my avatar(not me), LOL You really are that clueless:lol:


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## swoosh

Bob S said:


> Deer numbers can't be all that low. Private land antlerless permits have risen for the second consecutive year and the 2008 limit is double the 2006 limit. It looks like there need to be more land owners aggressively shooting does like we are.


 
Bob if these great and terrific hunters cannot see any deer, the numbers must be low

It's not their hunting skills:lol:


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## scott kavanaugh

:lol:


swoosh said:


> Nope:lol:
> 
> To whom does this 1000.00 dollars go?
> 80 hours doing what?
> 
> BTW that is Mitch Rompala in my avatar(not me), LOL You really are that clueless:lol:


Your starting to make me nervous, your asking more questions than my wife. You do understand I'm married and have a child, right?:lol:

So all I know about Mr. Rompala is he supposedly shoots his huge bucks off game preserves/farms and claims their wild bucks. Sounds like he's practicing QDMA. He's obviously some sort of hero of yours. Sorry I didn't recognize your idol, that's just not an accomplishment to me. I do remember briefly reading about him when he got caught though.


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## swoosh

scott kavanaugh said:


> :lol:
> 
> Your starting to make me nervous, your asking more questions than my wife. You do understand I'm married and have a child, right?:lol:
> 
> So all I know about Mr. Rompala is he supposedly shoots his huge bucks off game preserves/farms and claims their wild bucks. Sounds like he's practicing QDMA. He's obviously some sort of hero of yours. Sorry I didn't recognize your idol, that's just not an accomplishment to me. I do remember briefly reading about him when he got caught though.


 
Mitch is the man, someday you'll shoot a full size deer

I did not expect any answers for obvious reasons.


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## glockman55

swoosh said:


> Mitch is the man, someday you'll shoot a full size deer
> 
> I did not expect any answers for obvious reasons.


I agree, He got a raw deal, I really don't think he cared if anyone believed his record book Buck or not. He's shot more Book Bucks than anyone will see in a life time.:evil:


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## mitchk2007

So when are you going to shoot a nother nice buck there swoosh.


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## swoosh

> So when are you going to shoot a nother nice buck there swoosh.


I hope on Saturday Shooting one is not as important as the chase to me


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## solohunter

AH yes, the Mitch Rompola deer again,, the DNR now has a data base of DNA families from all counties to identify deer that may be passed off as from other areas, or Ranchs,,,,, If the DNR gets involved then the record may stand or get tossed, while he could be related to fred bear, or related to my cousin who I doubt has ever shot a deer in daylight:lol:


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