# st. croix vs g loomis vs scott vs ???



## super-fly (Oct 22, 2002)

I have been fly fishing for a few years with very entry level equipment. In fact I just returned an entry level 8wt to MC last night because I ended up not using it last weekend and figured that was a sign I ought to buy something a little better. After spending countless hours with the Cabela's catalog I have determined that I probably need some advise on which direction to go before I drop more than a couple bucks into a rod and reel.

As far as bait fishing goes I primarily fish st. croix and g. loomis and have been very happy with both (both because of the quality and the lifetime guarantees). I am leaning towards a fly rod from one of these manufacturers, but am just curious what you all have to say on the matter. I am looking for two rods, a 4wt for stream trout and a 7 or 8wt for steel/coho/pinks.

Any and all advise is greatly appreciated.

Have a very merry Christmas.

Chris


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## Texas Fly (May 28, 2002)

I have one rod from each of the manufacture you list plus a Sage..here is my take:

I have a 9' 8wt Loomis GLX that I use primarily as a light saltwater rod or on bass. I like is very fast action for throwing out popper and a clousers in windy conditions. It is extremely light so you can cast it all day. Its matched with a Bauer M4. My brother who lives in Florida "adopted" my first one so I had to but another for myself. He has a Loop Evotech LW 6-9 on it...a very neat and light reel.

Next, I have a 8.5' 5 wt St Croix Legend Ultra for fishing larger rivers. Throws streams as well as dries nicely. Its a fast action rod though not as fast as the GLX. For a 5 Wt it has a good back bone but is fairly delicate. Its matched with a Bauer LM2.

For a 4 wt, I have a 8.5' Sage SLT. Its a moderate fast rod not as fast as the St Croix. Great for dries and nymphs even the occasional streamer but I am more of a dries anmd nymphs than streamers. Bauer LM1SL on this one.

For a 3 wt I have a 8' Scott G series, definatley the slowest action rod of the 4 and a fantastic dry fly rod. Roll casts wonderfully in tight areas and very accurate. Also a LM1SL on this one.

As you can see, I like a slower action rod as I get into the lower line weights...just my personal preference. But my theory is the slower actions rods are more accurate while faster action rods cast further (at least with my style of casting). If I was to go with a 4 wt it would definately be the Sage SLT as I hardly fished my St Croix or Scott on my last trip to the UP. I like the 8.5' length because of the smaller streams I fish up there. If I was fishing larger waters I would probably go to 9 foot version.

I bought all of these rods (except the St Criox which I picked up at their factory in Park Falls, WI) on ebay and saved a bunch of money (150 bucks or more off list) and were factory rods with warranties. Bought most of the Bauers on line as well at about 30-35% off. You just need to be on the lookout for the stuff you like.

Also, all these are spooled up with WF floating Orvis Wonderline which can be had on ebay for about 30 bucks.


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## JWF (Jun 25, 2001)

I have an 8 wt Scott ARC and a 9wt Loomis GL3. I have used St. Criox's before, a 9'6" 7 wt Imperial. St. Croix's make a nice rod, but I prefer the Scott. It is a 10 ft four piece, and it turned me on to the convenience of a travel rod. It is a medium-fast action. They do not make the ARC's in the one-handed version anymore, but I think the closest thing they have now is a 10 ft 8wt four-piece S3. A little pricey at $560.00, and it probably has a faster action. I have seen ARC's like mine on ebay for $400.00. Since you have seen the Cabela's catalog, then you are aware of the costs of the various rods. I really do not think you can go wrong with any of the manufacturer's you mentioned. I think you can get a little more choice for less money with the Scott's and St. Croix, since G.Loomis changed their model lines a bit. Now, I do not think you can get a G.Loomis rod longer than 9 feet unless you step up to the Triology, which is around $400.00, or have on custom built. Alot of steelheaders recommned a rod longer than 9ft for better line control, which I tend to agree with. Also, I have not used any of the manufacturer's service department's yet, but I think Scott and St. Criox may be a little more liberal with no-cost returns, since Loomis has the "expeditor service." So, you may need some input from others who have had to invoke thier warranties on these rods.

Can't help on the 4 wt. I am looking at a 5wt myself, from either St. Croix, Scott or Loomis. I am a little partial to a new Loomis right now, but a Scott SAS seems like a good deal.


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## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

Texas Fly,
Sorry to drop in on the flyrod discussion but I saw that you mentioned that you visited the St. Croix factory in Park Falls. I have a half a mind do a road trip there when the cabin fever sets in hard about a month from now. What did you think? Is it worth the trip from SE Michigan? Are there good deals to be had? Do the factory "seconds" that I hear about that are discounted still carry the warranty that the rest of the rods do? I'd love to combine it with a YarCraft factory tour. Seems like a good way to stop myself from going crazy. Drop the wife and kids off at the relatives in Chicago . . . .


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## steelslam (Apr 8, 2001)

i bought an 8# reddington for steelhead an salmon. havent got it on a steelhead yet but worked well for the salmon this fall. i use a ross c-4 reel an like that lots. plus both have an excellent guarantee for life.


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## kroppe (May 7, 2000)

super fly, 

I have a Scott SAS 905/3, a 9 foot 3 piece 5 weight. I think they call it medium action, but it is on the fast side of medium. It casts very well and packs down relatively compactly, considering it is not a true travel rod. Everything about the rod is top notch, from the performance to the craftsmanship of the rod, guides, grip and reel seat. I got it a few years ago for $280, which although on the low range for high performance rods, dwarfs what I pay for my spinning rods by a factor of almost 10! I just checked Scott's website and they are still selling it for the price I paid. 

Bottom line for me is that when you get into the upper ranges of rods you'll like anything you buy. The thing I recommend is that you understand what action and length you are looking for. Then select the rod in your price range for a given action/length. 

Beyond action and length, what you pay for, in my opinion, is cosmetics like quality of cork handle, number of guides, ferrule type and such.

p.s. I have a Redington AS5/6 reel which works for me. The drag is real nice and have no complaints otherwise. BTW I don't care for Redington's website.


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## dieseldude (Oct 25, 2002)

i used to buy nothing but loomis blanks, i havent had to but a rod in 6-7 years but when i do i am going to gat a T&T!
i like all of them.................


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

The 4 wt. I go to for most Michigan streams is a trusty IM-6, 8 ' Winston TMF. Any rod that makes you grin the way I do when I 'have' to use that rod is worth the price of admission. There IS such a thing as a 'Winston Action' and in the smaller rod weights it can't be beat. I've seen these on sale occasionally because they are 2 piece rods.
The closest I come to being brand loyal is with G Loomis because their GLX line suits my casting style (or lack of!) to a tee. I have a 4, 5, and 9 wt. and am in the process of choosing between another GLX or another Scott S-3 (S) for an 11 or 12 weight.
Not knowing where you fish and what you are fishing for and what price range you are looking at limits us giving you top-notch advice. I will suggest that you cast every rod you can get your paws on in the weights and brands you are looking for. The right rod will talk to you! Every good fly shop will let you cast their rods, some will even let you borrow them for a weekend, another very good place to test-drive them is at the MFFC Rod Show in Southfield in March, that is if you can wait that long! Most major manufacturers will be there as will most Michigan Fly Shops (all the good ones at least )


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## gomer (Dec 30, 2000)

since it seems like the lighter rod has been covered so far i will give you some input on the steel/coho/pinks rod. You mentioned you were looking for a 7-8wt. well unless you are going to fish for kings a lot with the rod, there really isnt a need for a 8wt. id say something like 9 1/2 to 10ft 6 or 7 wt. I am a big supporter of st croix and fully stand behind their rods. in fact i just got 13ft Imperial spey rod today. I have a friend that has a scott but he broke it only a month or two after he got it and it took them like 2 months to send him another one.


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## reeldeal3 (Aug 27, 2002)

Well, the only reason my scott broke is because I was really horsing a salmon in, no other. I have owned both St. Croix and Scott fly rods, am very pleased with the performance in both of them.........They both have a life time also and just b/c it took a month to get back does not make that a poor rod...


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## phlyphisher (Aug 15, 2001)

Are you going to be chuck & duck or indicator or sink tip fishing for steel/coho? That has a lot of bearing on what style of rod you need for the "heavier" weight rod. 

For c&d, basically any fly rod will do the trick, but one with a crisp action is more sensitive, IMO. For the other types of fishing, you have to take into account your casting style and the type of line you will be throwing. With some more information, we might be able to help you more. 

As far as manufacturers is concerned, most of the American companies stand behind their products well. I will never join the Loomis bandwagon...plus, there have been rumors from the West Coast boards that I read that Loomis is going to a one year warranty on all rods -- but that is just a rumor. Out of all the companies rods that I own, Loomis, St. Croix, Orvis, Cabelas, (really old) Fenwick, the Loomis is my least favorite. I really like the cabelas PT and St Croix's Legend Ultra...both have been great rods thus far.


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## super-fly (Oct 22, 2002)

Thanks everybody for the info so far. It looks like I am going to have to spend a little time in the shops and try out a few rods. 

See you on the river.

Chris


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## 1fish2fish (Mar 28, 2002)

Super-fly,

Phlyphisher was the first to say what I was thinking. When choosing your steelhead rod for fly fishing it really depends on what your going to be doing. 

For C&D you want a rod that loads easily. You don't backcast in the traditonal sense so I like a rod that has moderate action or possibly moderate/fast action so the rod bends easily when I go to chuck the slinky. I use a St. Croix Avid and love it. It is moderate to mod/fast in action but it is still very sensitive.

For "indi" fishing I like a rod that is mod/fast in action. You can still cast some line but it has some flex for rolling over a bobber, split shot and fly. I have trouble rollcasting a Loomis GLX in tight because they flex so close to the tip. I use a Loomis GL3 for "indi" fishing and I like that as well.

If your swinging speys in big rivers I would buy the fastest action rod you can afford. It makes long cast easier.

I also agree on the GLoomis comments. There are so many quality fly rods out there. I would never pay the high retail prices for the so called "top end fly rods". If your looking for a faster rod that is getting rave reviews, check out Temple Fork Outfitters, the salt water guys (who really know their rods) are loving these rods and they're reasonably priced.


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## Texas Fly (May 28, 2002)

Superfly,

I visited the St Croix fatory while I was visiting my inlaws in the western UP. It wasa rainy day and I needed to do something with the family. The do sell "seconds: there but its hit or miss. While I was there they had some nice saltwater surf rods for sale.

It's a lonmg trip from SE MI and I dont think it would be worth the trip solely for that, but if you find yourslef up there sometime its not a bad diversion on a rainey day.

Kevin


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

>>Thanks everybody for the info so far. It looks like I am going to have to spend a little time in the shops and try out a few rods.<<

That's the ticket! You have to get the rod that is right for you and your situation and the only way to tell that is by trying as many as you can.
Remember too, most rod manufacturers have several series of rods, all with totally different actions.
A long, 7 wt. rod is what I like to use for steel, if you plan on tangling with King Salmon, I would opt for the 8 weight and a reel with a very good drag!

phlyphisher, Loomis rods come in many sizes, shapes and styles. Which do you have that is your least favorite and why? The GLX is not a soft, roll casting type rod, you are correct, but if you want to toss some line with spot-on accuracy without tiring your arm out it works well at that.

1fish2fish. I haven't paid full-boat for a rod in years. If I had to, my collection would be a lot smaller! 

Jack (in defense mode!)


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## Beaglernr (Dec 1, 2002)

Super, you have some great replies not too much more I can offer other than I think you hit it on the head, visit fly shops, try rods. If you are not in a hurry, remember there is normally a large fly show in Southfield Michigan early in March. Pretty much all of the rod companies are there and you will have a casting pit there to try them out back to back right there!!!!! 
Just something to concider.

Tight lines

Dave


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## phlyphisher (Aug 15, 2001)

Jackster1,

I've tried many GL rods, both spinning and fly, and I was not impressed with any of them. The Loomis that I currently own is strcitly a small stream king fighting rod and heavy sink tip rod for pike that I bought b/c I got a great deal on it. 

I know many people who just love their GL's, but I think that they are rather crude, to steal a line from one of my friends. I just don't feel as if they are as spectacular as they are made out to be. Do they even use Fuji components anymore? 

For the price, I think that there are other, cheaper (and more durable) models other than the GLX that cast and perform well according to my casting style. 

Nothing against the Loomis legions, but I've just never tried one that I really thought was the cats a$$. If I were going to spend that amount of money, I'd definitely get a Sage or a Scott or one of the new St Croix Legend Elites. Rods made by those companies have a better warranty, IMO, and they stand behind their products better. 

I used to think that price equated a better rod, but I have not found that to be true. I'd rather buy the rod that fits my needs regardless of price. 

I'm glad you found a rod that fits your style in the GLX, it's just simply not for me, and I prefer a fast rod for most applications. Everyone is different, and my opinion is just my opinion.  

Good luck!


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

The great debate...
I find it very interesting that in Michigan it is VERY rare to find a shop that has good things to say about Loomis. As you know, local fly shops carry a lot of weight in deciding what line you'll eventually end up using, and, most fly shops are concerned about one thing first, their bottom line. Loomis does not cater to the small fly shops because their big market is in spinning and casting rods and they don't add every dealer who has a spot on their rod rack as dealers like Sage does. Their fly rod sales are tiny in comparison. In all reality, the Loomis warranty is almost as good as the Orvis over-the-counter warranty. If the rod breaks through defects in materials or workmanship there is no charge, if YOU break it or need a fast turn-around, $45.00 gets a new rod at your door in two days. Shipping costs both ways included. That is the reality of the Loomis Expeditor warranty, despite the lies I have been told by more than one fly shop! 
I find it interesting that the Fly Fish America 8 weight shoot-out between all of the major rod manufacturers had the GLX on top in every catagory, with the tests being done by beginner, intermediate and professional fly casters.
I own Scott rods and they are very nice. The 'G' is on a par with an IM-6 Winnie as far as smooth performance. The S3 I own is much like the Sage XP, a rod trying to duplicate the GLX with a powerful butt section and softer tip. They aren't there yet though, it's the weight that holds them back. The 'other' guys ain't got access to the proprietary graphite that Loomis uses.
Personally, I go against the grain and will probably never own a Sage rod. They are soul-less and look as though they were made on a production line and never touched by human hands. Sage uses middle-of-the-road components (price the guides and seats they use sometimes!) yet charge a premium price. Go figure!Every action they come out with is a copy of someone elses AND, when you by a Sage, you can be sure it's value will drop by half when they discontinue it in a short time and reintroduce it later under a new name with a richer price tag. Sage IS the best at marketing.

As Gary Loomis says, "I can build a rod that will not break, but you wouldn't want to fish with it."

and yes, Loomis still uses the full, high-end Fuji components including the high-performance, low weight carbon fiber reel seat.

As long as we each enjoy what we use what is the difference? This could turn into another endless Ford vs. G.M. vs. Chrysler (though, in my mind, it's more like Ferrari vs. Camry!  ).

Jack (in full defense mode! )


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## phlyphisher (Aug 15, 2001)

You know why it's rare to find a shop that has good things to say? It's likely b/c they treat them like crap. A good friend of mine owns a store and sells Loomis, but he's the first to admit that they are a bunch of pricks to deal with...and he sells 75% spinning gear. So, it's not just the fly people. 

And, I don't know what you're talking about with an over the counter warranty with Orvis: their policy has always been to send the rod into the company for repair/replacement. Many shops just tried to maintain customer relations by doing the o-t-c replacement, but the company found out and put a stop to that. The only company that I am aware of that has that kind of policy is Reddington, and, from what I understand, they need it.

Lies by fly shops? They're the people that have to deal directly with the company, I'd trust their opinion of the warranty more than someone off the street. I'm sure the shop has had more experience with the rod maker than any one person. And if I heard that from more than one shop, I think that I'd pick up on a pattern. hmmm...

Ferrari vs. Camry? That would be a comparison between the Italian Gatti rods and the 2004 Loomis rods, because they'll probably be made next to the Toyota plant...in Japan! They sold out to Shimano, remember?  

But whatever works for you, have at it. Keep paying the top $ for a GLX, those shops need the business! 

Joe (in brutally honest truth mode!) LOL!


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

>>This is a pretty interesting topic you guys have going here. I thought I would just throw out a few items to clarify things a bit. Loomis rods are built in Washigton not Taiwan. In fact they have the most sophisticated manufacturing facility in the U.S., maybe the largest too but I'm not sure as St. Croix is very large as well. 

As far as I know, they are the only company other than St. Croix that uses a graphite scrim rather than a fiberglass scrim. They use a sophisticated rolling table that allows them to wrap the blanks very tightly and consistently. That allows Loomis to sand of all of the extra resin that other companies leave behind. Extra resin only adds weight. There is no finish for the same reason, the finish is simply for cosmetics and only adds weight. Furthermore, GLX blanks are extremely consistent, more so than other manufacturers. The graphite they use for GLX is proprietary. They negotiated a deal to buy a cloth with more fibers per inch. Basically the fibers are combed out more than other commonly available materials used by other manufacturers.<<

Saw this on another board tonight. It sounds like they use the same O.C.L.V. (Optimum Compaction, Low Void) technology that Trek used on Lance Armstrongs bike.


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