# Moor sub troll 900.....



## Section 8

Has any one used the Moor ST 900 for temp and speed at the cannon ball? 
[/COLOR] 
I have used the Fish Hawk but I am curious about other electronics for temp and speed. Especially wireless or transducer less devices.

Thanks


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## Midway97

Section 8 said:


> Especially wireless or transducer less devices.
> 
> Thanks


The Cannon Speed and Temp does speed, temp,light intensity, battery voltage and depth, and uses the downrigger cable as its connection so blowback doesn't have an effect. iI your using it in less than 100 feet or so you won't need the coated cable (supplied) with the unit.


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## Fishous

I have a Moor Subtroll. Any particular questions you have about it?


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## limige

my friend brian has it on his boat (bugs bunny), works flawlessly and is a major asset to his program.. he uses the coated cable and hasn't had any issues with it so far.


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## kingfisher 11

I also have the unit. Had it now for 4 years with no problems. Just another tool that helps and adds more cost to my fishing habit.

I use the coated cable.


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## Far Beyond Driven

Have one, love it.

Fished many boats with Fishawks on them, then bought a Subtroll.

FBD, Holland, MI


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## SEECAP505

Have used the sub-troll for many years. Would not want to fish without it. The unit works great and the battery life, last me the entire season. You have to love the easy to read dial face. The service guys are great and very helpful. Love the unit.


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## wheelerT

Have used my 900 for 2 years great product, had a problem with my probe called Hank at sub-troll he helped me right through my problem sent new probe same day there out of New York had it in my hands with new warrinty in 2 days works great!


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## Hank Z

Hello:

My name is Hank Zagara. I am a co-owner of Moor Electronics, Inc. We manufacture the well known SUB-TROLL 900, Speed and Temperature at the Lure" product. I have joined this forum for the following reasons:

*A.* Be a resource for anyone seeking information regarding our SUB-TROLL-900 and or other products.

*B.* Assist any current ST-900 owners with any issues they may have with their unit.

*C.* Respond to and clarify some disinformation which I have seen posted on various fishing related web forums.

First I would like to extend my thanks and appreciation to all our current customers. We have been manufacturing and supporting the ST-900 for nearly 20 years now, and want to assure you that we will continue to provide only the finest service and support for your product for years to come. We truly appreciate all the kind words many of you have shared both here and through other channels. Thank you!

With literally thousands of ST-900's now currently installed in the field it is our goal to provide whatever is necessary to see that each and every unit is working and providing its owner the performance and operation they've come to expect. Simply stated our products work as advertised. If for any reason you are having a problem with yours, regardless of its age, we want to hear from you, and work to assure your 100% satisfaction.

We proudly stand behind all our products. Please, if you are having any trouble whatsoever with your Moor product contact us and lets get it working! Although I will attempt to respond to general interest inquiries here, we have found that a phone call is much more effective in resolving individual customer issues.
Call us toll free at 800-876-4971. M-F 9AM - 5PM EST

Additionally for those considering adding a Speed and Temp. unit to their boat, please also feel free to contact us with your questions regarding the SUB-TROLL 900 at the same toll free number above.

Tips for ST-900 users: OK I said I was here to assist. Although I've read many posts regarding specific installation issues it would be impractical to address them all in this short (or not so short, sorry) post. However one of the more popular topics has been regarding the connection of the downrigger cable to the underwater probe transmitter.
Over the years we have made several improvements to the ST-900 system. Although the system still does require the use of coated downrigger cable (supplied with unit) a direct cable to probe connection with complete sealing or taping of the connection is no longer necessary in most cases, and a removable snap swivel connection may be used. However since parts of the connection will be left uncoated and exposed to the water a decrease in the maximum working depth may result. While operation to the full 200 depth can only be guaranteed using the Standard Direct Connection Method, over the years weve heard from many SUB-TROLL 900 users who have used this removable connection method with no noticeable loss in performance. For this reason we strongly suggest you consider its use.

Caution: When using this connection method use only silver colored crimp sleeves and snap swivels. Black coated hardware may not conduct electricity due to the coating and prevent the system from operating. Also do not use terminators constructed with plastic as they may not provide a continuous electrical path between the cable and the upper swivel eye of the probe.

With this removable method of connection the system will definitely work at shallow depths and most likely much deeper. However we recommend you do some trial runs to determine if operation is reliable down to the depths you require. Should you determine that the working depth is insufficient; try covering as much of the connection as possible with the supplied rubber insulating tape, or other sealant while leaving enough exposed to be able to operate the snap swivel clip mechanism. Be sure the connection is dry before applying the tape. The amount of signal loss at the connection is proportional to the amount of exposed conductive metal surface area in contact with the water. Anything you can do to minimize this exposed area should help increase the working depth. If the system fails to work at all, even at shallow depths, do not suspect the bare connection to be the problem. Re-check the installation looking for other problems. Additionally, exposed metal at the probe connection, and or bare sections of coated cable will affect only the strength of the signal, and thus the maximum working depth. These conditions will not affect the accuracy of the readings. Sorry for the long description, but I want to try to be as clear as possible. I would be more than happy to provide additional assistance/tips here if it is welcome and found to be helpful. It's your forum, you let me know. Again as always if you have any questions regarding this or other installation issues give us a call. 

I want to assure everyone reading these forums my intention here is to assist current customers with any issues they might have, and to provide factual and background information about our product, for those considering adding a Speed and Temp unit to their boat. Of course I would like to see everyone choose the ST-900 but any recommendation from me would surely be biased, and I make no attempt to conceal that fact. We believe in promoting our products through paid advertisements. That being said anyone considering purchasing a speed and temp unit certainly should welcome the recommendations of others, but also consider the source. If a recommendation comes from a person who has experience using all the products considered or from a retailer who sells them all, it can be considered unbiased in nature and helpful. However one should be aware that often times recommendations come from individuals such as Pro Staffers who are often compensated with free or discounted equipment, and or others somehow connected with the manufacturer. Be aware that any recommendations from such "cheerleader" posters may indeed be very biased in nature. 

Finally, I would like to reply to a few recent posts on various web forum sites comparing the SUB-TROLL 900 to the recently introduced Depth Raider from Kell Labs. In my opinion these posts go a little overboard promoting the Depth Raider while putting down the SUB-TROLL. I have to wonder if such "cheerleading" comments are truly unbiased in nature, or perhaps the poster(s) may have some connection to Kell Labs. Again this is just my opinion, and other readers should draw their own opinion based on the content of the posts. Although I respect the posters right to their opinions, some of the things stated are simply untrue or misleading, and I would like to respond with some facts and clarifications. 

*1. ST-900 "Large Probe=more blowback":* The Depth Raider probe is slightly shorter than the SUB-TROLL 900 probe, however the cross section diameter profile is virtually the same. Drag resistance through the water is much more dependent on this cross section profile than it is by length. We recently tested both probes side by side on LakeOntario and observed no distinctive difference in blowback.

*2. ST-900 "Single O-Ring seal":* The single O-Ring seal on the ST-900 was designed for us by an O-ring/seal manufacturing company with 30+ years experience. At 200 ft. of depth the water pressure is only about 100 psi. According to the seal designer; "This type of seal design could withstand pressures as high as 1500 psi. The pressures present 200 ft underwater are virtually nothing for this type of seal." Every probe we manufacture is pressure tested for a full 24 hrs. So, is a double O-Ring seal better? Maybe, but certainly it should not be required with a properly designed and installed seal for this application.

*3. ST-900 "Cheap Radio Shack battery connector":* I assure you that the battery connector we use in our probe is neither cheap or from Radio Shack. In fact it is one of the highest quality snap on style connectors weve been able to find, and has performed fine in the field for 18 years. It has a molded hard plastic housing with 6 prong snaps, unlike the cheap soft vinyl types with 4 prong snaps you might find at Radio Shack. 

*4. ST-900 "Large analog display for speed, gobbles up dash space":* Large? Yes we like to think our display is large enough to be easily read at a glance from practically anywhere on the boat. Many of our customers have told us that they consider our highly visible speed display a positive feature of the SUB-TROLL 900. My 19" computer monitor sure gobbles up space on my desk but I wouldn't consider anything smaller. It's easy to read! If dash space on your boat is truly at a premium, then a smaller display may be a good choice. However based on the thousands of ST-900's currently in use in the field, apparently many are willing to sacrifice a little extra dash space for the benefit of our large easy to read display. Also note that our display head can be either surface mounted using the supplied gimbal mount pod and bracket, or flush mounted directly in a dash or instrument panel. The gimbal mount can be on a horizontal, vertical, or even an overhead surface. One benefit a digital speed display might have is cost. Digital LCD displays are relatively inexpensive, when compared to the analog movements and the required dial faces used in our speedometers. These meter movements are highly sensitive, precision devices custom manufactured to our specifications. The meter movement alone accounts for about 1/3 of the total material cost of the SUB-TROLL 900 display head. In todays market a suitable LCD for a digital speed display would probably cost about as much our dial face card alone. Obviously we dont prefer analog due to cost concerns.

Moor did originally manufacture a line of trolling speedometers with digital speed displays. In fact the numbers in our older digital speed displays were even larger than those on the current Depth Raider display. We discontinued them some time ago simply because we found that most serious anglers preferred the analog displays. Below is a little info on the whole analog vs. digital issue. Bear with me here, its a little long but I feel its good information worth considering.

Digital information requires conscious attention, whereas analog information can be processed at a glance without conscious attention. Clearly this can be of great benefit on an active boat deck during busy fishing activities. With analog speed meters you get two main advantages. You can visualize the ends of the scale in a clear way, and you get feedback on acceleration or deceleration which is easier to read and interpret than with fast flipping digital numbers. Digital displays do not easily offer rate of change indication, which can be very helpful when making throttle adjustments to maintain a fixed trolling speed. Another advantage with an analog gauge is that you can see the general position and rate of change of the indicator with peripheral vision, while digital requires a direct look to read. When conditions are changing analog displays can tell you at a glance if you are within your allowable limits, but a digital display requires that you do a mental check against the minimum and maximum allowable limits. In other words digital numbers need to be converted in your head before being put to use. In general its been found that when it comes to human beings very few kinds of numeric data are better displayed digitally than in analog form. Look at the automotive, aviation, and marine instrument panels, they are largely analog even though digital display technology has been around for quite some time and is very economical today. Some auto manufactures have offered digital speedometers in the past, but the trend never caught on. It its no accident that today nearly all new vehicles still come with analog gauges.
Digital displays are useful in applications where the range of the data is too great to be put on an analog display, or when an absolute reading is required. Temperature is one such application and for this reason we have always used digital displays for water temperature.

*5. ST-900 Obsolete, 80s Technology: *Obsolete is defined as no longer in use. Well right now most of my shop is busy producing ST-900s, and we are shipping out units almost daily. Surely someone must be using them. We also continue to provide parts and service for older units dating as far back as 1988 when the product was first introduced. 

The SUB-TROLL 900 system was originally designed in the late 1980s. Since then we have made numerous upgrades and improvements to both the product and the manufacturing process to further improve its performance and reliability. 
For nearly two decades our product has proven to be a valuable tool for thousands of satisfied downrigger fisherman. Over that same time several other manufactures have introduced speed and temp products using various other technologies which have come and gone, never living up to their customers expectations. Moor Electronics was the first to use a radio frequency (RF) signal. Today we continue to use this 80s technology for one simple reason. IT WOKS! In fact it works so well that it is now being copied by at least two other manufactures. Cannon abandoned its original sonar technology based Speed N Temp in the early 1990s after only a couple years on the market with poor performance. A few years later they introduced a new Speed N Temp unit using our 80s RF technology. It caught my eye at a trade show when I noticed their spring style antenna pickup was virtually a copy of ours. 

The more recently introduced Depth Raider from Kell Labs interestingly enough also features an antenna pickup which is nearly identical to the 80s technology antenna weve always used in our SUB-TROLL 900. Although the Kell unit does offer an alternative all digital display format, it is our 80s RF technology, copied again, that provides the basis upon which their Depth Raider system operates. Having had the opportunity to further examine a Depth Raider unit, I was not too surprised to find that its receiver circuit was virtually a component for component copy of the same circuit we designed and have been using in the ST-900 since .. You guessed it the 80s. It was also no surprise to find that most of the text in the Depth Raider installation manual as well as their promotional literature was either directly copied from our ST-900 manual and literature and or a paraphrased version of the tips and support information we often provide by phone to customers who call our technical support department.

If it is true that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery then I guess I should extend my appreciation to these other manufactures for their endorsement of our 80s technology design as the proven best technology to date for making Speed and Temperature at the Lure available to downrigger fishermen. We at Moor have known this for a long time. Our nearly two decades of experience producing and supporting the SUB-TROLL 900, while other products have come and gone leaving their owners with truly obsolete equipment is one thing that simply cannot be copied. We stand behind our products 100% and will continue to do so well into the future.

Thank you all for attention. I apologize for the long initial post, and look forward to providing any assistance I can in the future regarding our products. Just ask, or better yet give us a call.

Good Fishing!

Hank Zagara
Moor Electronics, Inc.
95 Dorothy St.
Buffalo, NY14206

Tel: 800-876-4971 716-821-5304
Email: [email protected]


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## Captnbobb

It is not too often that you get the owner of the company coming on the forum to discuss his product so candidly. After all the negative comments I've heard about various fishing electronics suppliers not caring about their customers, it sound like Moor is listening and cares.

I looked at the Moor Subtroll, the Canon Speed n Temp, the Depth Raider, and the Fishhawk last year and ended up with the Speed n Temp. I have not been very happy with its performance. It doesn't always start but the times I've been ready to send it in for repairs it suddenly starts working again. I usually put a new battery in each time out although they may last a couple of outings but that is nothing compared to gas and tackle. I agree with Hanks comments about analog versus digital displays. It would help if you could adjust the dampening on the digital displays...they bounce a bit too much for my taste but the Canon is much more stable than my fishfinder or GPS. Last time out fishing (Frankfort) the fish were deep. I was marking them at 90-100'. I was using a 12 lb ball and with the coated cable I had ~140 ft of cable out to get to the very pronounced temperature break...70 degrees at 90 ft, 50 degrees at 95 ft...the same depth I was marking fish at. The Canon unit displays actual depth based on water pressure and given the uncertain impact of blowback, I really valued that display. I can pretty well guess at the light level....its kinda dark down that deep so the light intensity display has less value. I would much prefer either a lower drag sending unit or one that incorporates the cannonball to reduce drag (cavity to add weights into that can go to 10-14 lbs?). I would also like a unit with an analog display of speed and digital for temperature and actual depth. The attachment method seems like it could be improved to use a standard clip to carry the weight and a small wire with conductive pads to carry the signal to the cable above the clip.


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## Fishous

I have a Moor Subtroll 900. I'm very happy with it.

When it comes to blowback, my concern is the *angle of the downrigger wire* and the angle of the subtroll unit. If it angles, this would seem to throw off the speed indicator.

*What is the actual profile of the downrigger wire in the water?* Does it match any of these?


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## Hank Z

Mike: Great question. Short answer would be #1, but I'm going to look into it a little furthur. My gut feeling is that since both the upper and lower attachment points are swivel eyes, and located well to the front of the probe it would naturally want to track straight and level. I'll let you know if I find any different. Thanks for the feedback. Saw your earlier post also, thanks for your support.

Hank


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## jimmyt53

i have used one for 3 years now,works great and top notch customer service.i just lost my lower probe,when i cut my down rigger cable.I called yesterday and my parts will be here tomarrow.thats customer service,great job moor,jim t in michigan


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## Section 8

Well..... I'm glad I asked  

Thanks for all of the replies, especially Hank.


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## sfw1960

I used to sell 'em in the mid eighties... *the kids ate 'em up!*
Oh yeah , if it serves the purpose & does it's job well , then how can you begin to think that it's "obsolete"???

Good stuff guys........

:evilsmile

Robert


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## kingfisher 11

I have one that never got used this year. Anyone want to buy one?


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## jdman

Email Sent


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## kingfisher 11

email returned


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