# Skamania VS Michigan run



## Guest (Mar 20, 2002)

Hey I see guys talking about they caught a Skamania or it was a Michigan Steely, how do you know which is which?


I know what most people say, but I have talked to 3 different biologists at the DNR and they say you can't tell the difference without checking a micro tag or DNA sample.

Are the fisheries biologists full of it? or the fisherman?


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## silverbullet (Dec 13, 2001)

I just posted on this in the Cold Water forum as well. Its common sense that if you catch a steelie in late june, its as silver as can be, and the water temp is 58 degrees.....Its a skamania. Obvious, right? Now, these darn skamania will run whenever they want so its much harder to tell the difference when they are mixing with spring or fall fish. If it has an adipose clip, keep it, cut the head off and take it in. They'll tell you what strain it is, when it was planted, and give you a fishing lure or something. Then you'll know. I have to ask myself if it really matters all that much if its a skam or michigan when they are running together. ........they're all steelies and you're catchin' em, right? (clickin' my heals) Even if it didn't have any clips and its a silver fish in the river in July it can only be one strain.............skamania!


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

As I write this I'm looking at my mounted skamania steelhead sitting on my bookcase. It is 22-lbs 4-oz and 40" long. I got it June 6, 1983 the first year the age five fish were returning to Michigan City, Indiana. I remember the state record being broken three times in one day. On my day I had to quit fishing to have the fish weighed as I was fishing with a Indiana fishery staff person on his personal boat in the evening. I tied the Illinois record and missed the Indiana record by one pound. What the heck. I really burned my thumb on a defective drag that didn't work.

About the question of the difference between the Skamania and Little Manistee River strain? The biologist are correct about little or no positive way to tell them apart by field eye examination out in the lake (other than in clips). Remember, the migration of the Skamania during the summer reaches to the mid Lake Michiagn Charlevois / Leland area where they mix with all the Wisconsin fish as well. Today they could do the DNA test between the hatchery stock, but that's not the option in the field. After the fish enter the St Joseph River in June at 70+ degree water, we can probably assume that they are most all Indiana Skamania as the Michaign Little Manistee strain certainly wouldn't be that dumb. I couldn't resist that last statement just to keep the Michigan/Indiana teasing in place.


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## silverbullet (Dec 13, 2001)

Reef, now I'm jealous, thats one nice fish. A guy could spend a lifetime hunting a steelie like that, and I have half of one down. We're seeing quite a few wisconsin fish coming up to the top of the lake, ignoring where they were planted. I really do belive, at least up here, that some skam's are actually reproducing in streams they stray into, even if its just a rare few, and that there is enough for them to be catchable. I'd like to see a 22 pounder in a stream, wow.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2002)

Just curious what the responce would be. Commons sense would tell us it is Skam in summer but once the Salmon enter the river, until May, it is funny that there is so much disention on the subject. I talked to a guide at St. Joe last week he about lost it when I said the DNR says you can't tell the difference. I am new to the steely fishing so I thought I would check with the experts to find out. Actually, it is likely most of the naturally reproduced fish have cross bread by now. The way I understand it the only true way to determine which is which is if they have the adipose fin clip and you take the tag in..

Wow, where are all these big fish coming from? 19lbs is the biggest I have ever seen weighed on an accurate digital scale. Many of the high teens turn into low teens when they hit the scale, must be some kind of allergy........


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2002)

Didn't Indiana start stocking Skamania in 1976, that would be the 3rd year 5 year olds made it to Indiana?


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Well in my experience the summer run fish(Skamania) are not as fat and more tubular. I can see that some fish are hard to tell, but the spring run Michigan Steelhead have different characteristics than the Skaminia. As for the size, the skamania get much bigger than the Michigan Steelhead. I saw ten fish hit 20 lbs last year and two came from a feeder stream. 

As for telling them apart scientifically you can send them in, but as fisherman you should know the difference. THe charter guy you are referring about is just saying the same thing. When you have seen thousands of fish you dont need scientific proof what the fish is.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2002)

How do you know of those "thousands" of fish you have caught which are which? The DNR has done studies to compare length and weight (since the most common river bank knowledge says the skamania are more "tubular", etc), their studies show there is no measurable or visual difference. Creel studies show that of all steelys caught at in the St. Joe 50% are Skamania. They actually stock about 80% Skamania in Michigan waters. These are Michigan raised Skamania not Indiana.

I guess there are two answers, the one from the DNR and the one from the others. Sure makes for interesting conversation!


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## silverbullet (Dec 13, 2001)

Squirrel, I think your missing the point here. When the fish are in the river in the summer, they are fresh out of the lake and no intention of spawning as of yet. They are as if you'd have caught them with a downrigger. They do not color up as fast and look, without a doubt, longer (tubular if you will) with a larger, rounder head than you'd normal see. They stay greener in the river longer than any other strain. As they come into the time to spawn they change, just as any other rainbow does, grow a kype or hooked jaw and develope eggs. A skamania may run anytime it thinks its OK and if its running in the spring it wants to spawn - looks like any other steelie to the unexperienced eye. Also...........most of the creel census people I see are usually young students or older or retired people not fisheries biologists. Creel census's are hardly an exact science and I think that a particular fish can look different from another one and have the same weight and length.


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Remember guys, the Captain is always right! The fish is what ever he says it is. It is a long swim back to shore.


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## silverbullet (Dec 13, 2001)

Eye, eye .........Captain!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just don't make me swab the deck or walk the plank......When we're trolling on the big lake we have a nickname for the lowest guy on the ladder.........CABIN BOY!


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## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Talking about tublear, check out this fish.








Now if you ask me I think that fish is a skam. I have never seen a steelhead like that untill I fish the st joe. 

I personally think there is ways you can tell the difference.
Check out this picture.








The question is, are both of them skam's? I think not. I think the one that shoeman is holding is a spring run fish and the the one I have is def. a summer run. The question is, why would she be in the river now? My 2 cents.

HR, would love to see a pic of that 22 lber, or is it a fish story. Just joking, but I would still like to see it if possible.


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

Good post, squirrel! 

I wouldn't be a bit suprised if the gene pool is so screwed up that the scams are gettin jiggy wit the spring steelies.

H Reef, I like the Indiana/michigan thing. 

I will try to get some truthful info tonight at our steelheaders meeting with the DNR Biologist, Jay !

I'll report back and see if I can really stir things up!


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2002)

I am trying to get the point.......

silver bullet you mentioned the unexperienced eye not being able to identify. That is the point I was trying to bring up. The "experienced fisherman"(some of them) have the opinion you can tell the difference, however when asked how do you know they don't have any facts. Just it looks different so it must be, because I'm an experienced fisherman. Where is the basis for their assumption? The creel census workers you are talking about are only gathering the tags and scales, they are not the ones determining what strain a fish is, and compiling the data. Actually, one biologist I talked to said many times the worker logs a tag in and labels it sk for skamania, only to find that when the tag # is checked it is found to be a michigan winter steely. I think we all can agree the fish caught in the summer are skamania. My original question was really concerning fish caught from the beginning of the Salmon run until the end of the spring spawn.

Stelman brought up another interesting wrinkle. Most people say the skam's are longer and more slender. One of the posts said the skamania grow larger than the Michigan winter steely's. that would be tough to be longer and slender and bigger???? 

As I said, I know only what I have heard from the fisherman and that is in contrast to what the DNR says.

I understand Jim Dexter from the head biologist for the SW Michigan area is the guest speaker at the BC meeting tonight, spanky should have some good information for tomorrow.


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## silverbullet (Dec 13, 2001)

Stelmon, you might think thats a skam by the way it looks........spawned out? And it may very well be a skamania because you're on the St. Joe. However, I've seen many spring run fish that look just like that one, especially out of a very small huron trib (far, far away from any skamania plants) that has a good population of naturally reproducing fish and which has never been planted. I wish I could show you one, I have many pics just like that one. I have yet to figure out how to get my pics to go. I just can't do it, I'm too dumb and my pics are too big of size. I've tried to use the forum on posting pics but I've had no success. Boy, I've got some good ones too. Maybe I'll break down and ask for help................................


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

Speaking of tubular, Stelmon , who is the guy next to ya with a woodchuck on his head, and the trout jiz on his leg! 

Isn't he with the Yooper Mafia? Mob Boss? Makes Cement shoes?( acording to the gals that have to wear them).


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

Stelmon, Pay attention.... Both strains do spawn at the same time in the same areas. The scams only run earlier, and not all of them either! They are just genetically altered to enter the river earlier in the season. Our fisheries people are trying to develope a stream fishery for other seasons than just sept- march.

Gotta go to a meeting, I'll have a cold one for the grounhog guy!
He could be a second cousin of the squirrel monkey!


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## kingfisher2 (Mar 22, 2001)

I wanted to chime in here....the Skams I've caught in NOrthern Indiana all have much smaller heads. I have several pic's in the album and you can tell which one is which...I will try to get someone to scan them and you'll see.

BTW, who is that woodchuck headed dude...is that really the UP mafia?


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## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Silverbullet, that steelie I was holding had egg's jsut starting to develope. They were white and as small as a ball point pen. That's another reason I think it is a skam.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2002)

Hey Kingfisher welcome to the debate.

Just one question; How do you know the ones with smaller heads were Skams? Other than they look different. What told you initially that the scams have smaller heads? I have seen a bunch of white tail deer with smaller heads than the norm....may the same be true for trout that some just look different.


Spanky, I agree the fish are genetically different, but I don't think it was a man made alteration was it. I thought the scams were just steelhead that were native to the Whashougal River in Washington and got their name from the Skamania hatchery in Washington. How was the meeting?


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