# What would you do?



## alfred_in_cedar (Apr 5, 2009)

What if you watched a fishing guide break the law on multiple occasions? What would you do? I don't want or need drama, but just wondering how other Michigan Sportsman would respond? I dont want to get into specifics. But reg's is reg's. we all buy the same damn license and some make a living on our resources and some just enjoy them. 

so, all crimes being equal, what do you do? Call him out? Have a talk? Call DNR? 

please dont flame me. it's not a debate.


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## droptine989 (Oct 14, 2012)

Call the rap line


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## kzoofisher (Mar 6, 2011)

Being a guide he should know all the rules but first I would ask him in front of his clients if he knew he was breaking the rules and if he knew that his clients could be held in violation, too. If his response was unsatisfactory or he ever did it again I would call him in. I'm assuming we're talking strictly about fishing violations, not violent criminal acts.


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

What is the violation he is committing?


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

droptine989 said:


> Call the rap line


X2


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## buggs (Jan 21, 2011)

A bread thief rarely gets caught stealing his first loaf........


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## scooter_trasher (Sep 19, 2005)

I think whatever the guide is doing must be bothering you.
I personally would ask myself whether the violation was of a reg in place to protect the fishery , such as over limit violations , or the violation of a social management reg,in an attempt to get a tourist on some fish, secondly I would look at what would be best for my community, to have a tourist go home to his friends telling of how he spent a boatload of money on hotels, dinning, fuel, license and guide, didn't catch squat and won't be going back, or waxing on about the great time he had fishing in Michigan, because his guide got him on some fish, I've got no dog in that fight, it's your community and your neighbors that have the most interest in your fishery and the related tourism dollars.


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## Martin Looker (Jul 16, 2015)

If he is breaking the law call the DNR. It is as simple as that.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

If he is chumming I think that the Conservation Officers are turning a blind eye on it until it is repealed.


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## scooter_trasher (Sep 19, 2005)

The sins of others always seem greater than our own, I sometimes think some of these guys would have no issue calling rap on a minor gear reg social management infraction , while sitting on a freezer full of fish well over their possession limit and don't let them see you parking across your sidewalk or catch your grandchild selling lemonade without a permit, the law is the law and we need to be protected from criminals 
The original eyes and ears of 20th century social management enforcement


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

Robert Holmes said:


> If he is chumming I think that the Conservation Officers are turning a blind eye on it until it is repealed.


 I don't see them repealing the chumming ban. The NRC is so deep in the pockets of fly fishers, there is no way to get anything done legitimately.


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## Buckbaker (Aug 3, 2015)

toto said:


> X2


X3


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## kzoofisher (Mar 6, 2011)

scooter_trasher said:


> The sins of others always seem greater than our own, I sometimes think some of these guys would have no issue calling rap on a minor gear reg social management infraction , while sitting on a freezer full of fish well over their possession limit and don't let them see you parking across your sidewalk or catch your grandchild selling lemonade without a permit, the law is the law and we need to be protected from criminals
> The original eyes and ears of 20th century social management enforcement


You guys are learning. When your social norms are different than other peoples social norms it's best to use social activism to change things. I don't think that clandestine violations are the way to go though. Call a LEO and tell them which violation you are going to make and where, get a ticket and fight it in court. Open civil disobedience is much more effective than doing it on the sly. The latter just makes you look like a violator who got caught and the former is a principled stand.


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## scooter_trasher (Sep 19, 2005)

kzoofisher said:


> You guys are learning. When your social norms are different than other peoples social norms it's best to use social activism to change things. I don't think that clandestine violations are the way to go though. Call a LEO and tell them which violation you are going to make and where, get a ticket and fight it in court. Open civil disobedience is much more effective than doing it on the sly. The latter just makes you look like a violator who got caught and the former is a principled stand.


I've got no dog in that fight, it's your community and your neighbors that have the most interest in your fishery and the related tourism dollars. I just think it's a dangerous slope when people start with the brown shirt mentality of celebrating, ones calling in to the government on their neighbors, whats next merit badges for turning states evidence on your family, the KGB used to promote that.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

You two are unbelievable, we have laws for a reason, if the guide, person or whatever is breaking the law, it should be reporting, period. To show a picture of Nazis and declaring that is the face of those who fight social management is just wrong. What is wrong is using social management to dictate our hunting and fishing laws, and regulations. You, obviously believe that as long as it's on your water, or in your area then you have the right to do what you want, after all that's social management and it's what you and your neighbors want.


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## scooter_trasher (Sep 19, 2005)

You should reread my post, brown shirts were snitches, not fighters for social justice, having the attitude that all civil infractions are equal crimes and everything should be reported to the government, regardless of whether any harm is being done or whether making said call is in the best interest of your community or not, is tantamount to calling the police and filing a complaint on your neighbors kid for selling lemonade without a permit, or reporting your neighbor for parking left wheel to curb, that's simply brown shirt behavior, plain and simple, not all laws are just , not all laws are needed and not all laws serve the people, and if I saw someone hungry enough to steal a loaf of bread I would much rather pay for the bread than call it in.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

toto said:


> You two are unbelievable, we have laws for a reason, if the guide, person or whatever is breaking the law, it should be reporting, period. To show a picture of Nazis and declaring that is the face of those who fight social management is just wrong. What is wrong is using social management to dictate our hunting and fishing laws, and regulations. You, obviously believe that as long as it's on your water, or in your area then you have the right to do what you want, after all that's social management and it's what you and your neighbors want.


Peta and HSUS are trying every day to socially manage us right out of our rights to hunt, fish, and trap.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

toto said:


> I don't see them repealing the chumming ban. The NRC is so deep in the pockets of fly fishers, there is no way to get anything done legitimately.


The Conservation officers don't want to cross that bridge. So they write a ticket and the offender takes the ticket to court fights and wins. It becomes case law and no more chumming ban. Even a dismissed ticket can become case law. I am thinking that if this is the case the guide is up for a challenge.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert Holmes said:


> Peta and HSUS are trying every day to socially manage us right out of our rights to hunt, fish, and trap.


No different from the hunting and fishing groups trying to socially manage other sportsmen.


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## droptine989 (Oct 14, 2012)

Are you talking about gear restrictions on some streams?


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

That would be one example.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

The law is the law. Judges are to uphold the law, period. So I think all laws justified? No. Would I buy my neighbors bread if he really needed it, yes. However that isn't an even comparison here. Unless I'm mistaken the OP was referring to a guide in which case said guide was breaking the in the OP's opinion. Therefore it is the CO's job to decide the next step. To call out concerned citizens as nazi's is just disgusting, he wasn't talking about outing someone to go a gas chamber.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I don't use chum anyways, I do however have issues with gear restrictions and no kill. 

Regardless of where you stand on individual issue's. Social management by special interest's needs to come to an end. Although the scientific fish and management law was in response to the wolf issue. It's intent was clear, to end social management. 

Whether it is a Hunting, Fishing, or some other issue. Eventually one of those special interest regulations will be challenged under the new SFWMA. And If one fall's there will be many.

It's about damn time !


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## scooter_trasher (Sep 19, 2005)

Toto if your so lacking in reading comprehension, that you think I was calling the OP a Nazi Brown Shirt, for asking an opinion on whether he should report a Reg violation, instead of giving an example of how badly it can turn out if we encourage or even accept Government informants as good neighbors, there isn't much sense in my trying to explain that the law is the law cannot apply, when your not talking about laws, which by the way require an act of Congress, but are discussing regulations and ordinances which are enacted at the whim of a political appointee, who more than likely holds the position as repayment of a favor of financial or political nature. What's truly disgusting is the fact that we accept our government through the public school system , teaching our children to be informants, at a time when the same government is violating our fourth amendment rights every time we talk on the phone or stroke a keyboard, if that isn't reminiscent of 1940s Germany or 60s USSR , I don't know what is, none of this is new governments have bee spying their subjects as long as governments have existed, that's one of the tools of control. If you keep your eyes open you may very well catch a soccer mom selling a 50/50 ticket without a permit and stop a real crime spree.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

I can read just fine ty. It is you who fail to understand we have a RAP line for a reason. If protecting a natural resource from from violalators is a Nazi activity than so be it.


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## scooter_trasher (Sep 19, 2005)

you called yourself a Nazi I didn't
maybe you should read a book
* Snitch Culture: ...How Citizens Are Turned Into the Eyes and Ears of the State *
by Jim Redden
3.53 ·  Rating Details ·  32 Ratings  ·  4 Reviews 
In this alarming expose, investigative journalist Jim Redden examines how snooping has become so much a part of American culture that it is practically a family value, encouraged on billboards, television, and even in classrooms. From employees hired to spy on their coworkers to doctors forced to disclose medical information, the U.S. has developed a chilling network for monitoring its citizens. Worst of all, the information gathered - and widely disseminated - is often unreliable, solicited from paid and anonymous informants. "No one is safe in the Snitch Culture. Jim Redden has written a scary, fascinating, and important examination of the pervasive use and abuse of informants and snitches in the United States." - Katherine Dunn, author of Geek Love


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

No I didn't, YOU insinuated that if one calls the law about any little violation is therefore guilty of Nazi like tactics. Let's not break this discussion down to the mundane, grasping at straws is not an adequate response to the OP's question. If fishing laws are being broken then of course call RAP that is beneficial to us all, not some make believe social issue.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

So you call RAP the person answering the call is going to put calls in an order of importance. After that the Conservation Officer is going to respond to calls in order of importance. Much of this will be based on the information that they are given and how likely that they will be to issue a ticket or make an arrest. Some of the tips will be backlogged and perhaps nothing will come to a conclusion for years. There are some laws that are very outdated and some laws that don't make sense that never get changed although they should have been changed years ago. Depending on the violation I may or may not call RAP. I have the number in my address book just in case. So far this spring I have not heard of anyone getting a ticket for chumming so it might be one of the violations that the Conservation Officers are going to ignore. That is just an example.


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## AdamBradley (Mar 13, 2008)

The only bit I will add to this convo, and back right out... A guide, a certain guide, has been ticketed for chumming in the last week. Also, I have called rap about bow hunters on pine Creek, and they showed right up, in the past two weeks.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Hopefully somebody will contest these restrictions, under the scientific management law.


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## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

IMO, you need to speak up and call out the guide. If he blows you off and continues, then call the DNR. Simple process.


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