# Petition link-use of centerfire @ night



## varminthunter (Dec 19, 2005)

Beaverhunter2 said:


> I think you miss the point on the poaching issue. If you can't be in the woods with a light and a centerfire at all, they can bust the poachers just for being out there. This gives the CO's a tool to use when they find a poacher and can't find the deer- or popped him before he took the shot.
> 
> John


they could have a spotlight and 22mag (rimfire) and be legal for night hunting. How would you know if they dont shoot. You cant assume everyone is breaking the law. Are you against the centerfires at night for yotes ?


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## Cobra (Jan 19, 2000)

gilgetter said:


> X2. I hunt with single shots my self. thats my choice.
> 
> positive target ID at 200 yds at nite, thats great. you must have far better optics than I do. Are you using nite vision?


No night vision here. 50mm objective lens, snowy field, bright night and was easily, quietly set up basically around the barnyards with a nice mercury/sodium mildly lighting the area up. No need to stir the shooting zone up, 'yotes are 10x bolder/confident at night. Why screw it up, they're somewhat accustomed to human scents being around the buildings, take advantage of it. You're still trying to make them hunt you, not the other way around. Rarely need to shoot over 100yds, like the knock down power of a Swift though


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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

For the sake of maximizing success in some private land fields that I have permission to hunt at night and that I'm very familiar with, I've wanted to drive up and shut the motor off and hunt from within the vehicle. No door sounds and the window could be closed while loading the gun. I've heard the same excuses for why that's illegal as they're giving for no centerfire rifles at night, but if my legs were paralyzed I could get a permit for the vehicle. This poaching deer excuse is long past its shelf life. It turns people who want to do something reasonable into criminals.


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

that whole fair chase thing is so inconvenient.


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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

Beaverhunter2 said:


> We've been trying to work on this issue with the DNR. They've given us two reasons they won't support it- safety and the potential for poaching. From what I heard, when centerfires were legal at night they had problems with both. We'll keep working it but don't be too optimistic.
> 
> We're also working on getting #3 and #4 buck legalized at night. No promises but I feel a lot better about this one.
> 
> John


Have you consulted with the NRA-ILA on the issues? They might not want to offer anything more than an opinion statement, but they have experience with the excuses.


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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

gilgetter said:


> that whole fair chase thing is so inconvenient.


That's another of the excuses used against centerfire rifles at night.


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

If you cant beat the critter one on one, stay home. Im sure there will be a football game on, have some popcorn and be nice and warm. I bet you hunt Bambi from a apple shack.


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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

gilgetter said:


> If you cant beat the critter one on one, stay home. Im sure there will be a football game on, have some popcorn and be nice and warm. I bet you hunt Bambi from a apple shack.


This is an example of the caliber of discussion that occurs when laws are questioned and proposals for modifying them are discussed. Its purpose is to keep us (figuratively speaking) "n-words" down.


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## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Bambicidal Maniac said:


> This is an example of the caliber of discussion that occurs when laws are questioned and proposals for modifying them are discussed. Its purpose is to keep us (figuratively speaking) "n-words" down.



O.C.D.

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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

Seaarkshooter said:


> O.C.D.


This is another example. From post #10



Seaarkshooter said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bonz 54*
> _A poacher is a poacher and he doesn't care if centerfires are legal or not. We need to take the gloves off with dealing with the out of control coyote population in this State. In case some have not noticed the falling rabbit population, the pheasant and quail populations that can't seem to bounce back. (There are other causes at work here too). But when you add a preditor population that goes unchecked, what can we expect? We could always put a restriction on caliber size, say .24. This would at least give those that want to hunt coyotes a chance to put a few dents in the population. FRANK
> 
> ...


:lol:


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

Bambicidal Maniac said:


> This is an example of the caliber of discussion that occurs when laws are questioned and proposals for modifying them are discussed. Its purpose is to keep us (figuratively speaking) "n-words" down.


WOW!!! You must be a collage boy.I dont think I have seen anything so down right stupid, In all my born days. good luck friend.


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## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Please, oh mystical moderator g*d, elevate us to DEAFCON 4.


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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

gilgetter said:


> WOW!!! You must be a collage boy.I dont think I have seen anything so down right stupid, In all my born days. good luck friend.


Yet another example.

The issue here is whether the exclusion of centerfire rifles is necessary. If it isn't, why is there a law against it? We don't have a law against possessing and carrying a can of spray paint just because vandals might use them to vandalize public property. For some reason, when it comes to changing anti-gun laws, we get told we're the bad guys or crazy or stupid.


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## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Bambicidal Maniac said:


> For some reason, when it comes to changing anti-gun laws, we get told we're the bad guys or crazy or stupid.



Nope. I never have. You sure there isn' t a communication filtering problem here, Mr. Dale Carnegie?


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

I dont know you, and I dont think you know me.If we have met remind me of when and where, Please.

If for any reason I thought that centerfires at nite was a good Idea, I would get on the wagon. Target ID, I say againTARGET ID. you convince me that you, or the average hunter can tell me whats out there at center fire ranges, Im from MO show me.

X-mass morning 64 I got a 22 mag and some olts calls, one of my better days. I been at it ever since. killed some critters, missed more. I do know a bit of what Im talking about. myself I use 12ga singleshot. for saftey reasons.

gun owners are not the victems. Its alot like 220s on dry land, not worth the problems.


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## Diogenes (Mar 9, 2012)

I'm okay to about 150 yds on a bright night with snow as a back drop. They seem to like hanging up at around 100 yds. Easy with a centerfire. Not so easy with a rimfire.


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## Beaverhunter2 (Jan 22, 2005)

varminthunter said:


> they could have a spotlight and 22mag (rimfire) and be legal for night hunting. How would you know if they dont shoot. You cant assume everyone is breaking the law. Are you against the centerfires at night for yotes ?


Nope. As I mentioned in a post above I did it myself back when it was legal to do it without lights. I bought my first .223 just for that purpose. And I have a 200yd niteblaster. It's on my ulti-mag right now.

I'm just raising the issues that will be (and have been) used to argue against it; and let you know what the DNR's position has been. I don't necessarily agree with them.

Now that BM has found this thread, I'll be staying off it.

Good night, Guys!

John


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

Beaverhunter2 said:


> Now that BM has found this thread, I'll be staying off it.
> 
> Good night, Guys!
> 
> John


no need to worry john. looks like the mods have taken care of the BM. carry on


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## Beaverhunter2 (Jan 22, 2005)

wild bill said:


> no need to worry john. looks like the mods have taken care of the BM. carry on


Ok then. I'll add a few more comments for thought.


IMO We have to try to look at these issues from a "global" perspective. Not necessarily adopt others' positions. Just give them fair thought and consideration. To paraphrase the old saying- it's not all about us.

COs have a stake in this. They need to be provided with the tools to catch poachers. Letting anyone with a call in their pocket into the woods at night with a rifle and a light makes it harder for them to protect our deer herd. I can see the local CO finding some guy in the woods with a .300 Win mag, a nightblaster and a $7.99 predator call that he knows has been shooting deer but hasn't been able to catch in the act. Today that CO could bust him. Allowing centerfires at night would make it even harder for the CO to do his job. The job he does for US. BTW if you haven't seen my earlier posts, I have a lot of respect for our COs.

Safety is a real issue for consideration. Last deer season down here we two houses hit by stray bullets. One went through a lady's living room wall _while she was in the room_. Maybe smaller calibers (say .224 and below) and no FMJs could help mitigate that. The bullets for these calibers tend to be more fragile and less likely to richochet. If you don't think richochets could be an issue, ask any soldier or marine what they saw during night fire training. Those .223 tracer FMJs richochet a lot and go a looonnnnggg way! Perhaps requiring frangible bullets (like the polymer-tipped ones) could also reduce the risk they would be used for poaching. If the bullets shatter on impact they are unlikely to penetrate well enough to cause a quickly lethal wound on a deer. Poachers want their deer DRT- not running 1/2 mile. Just thinking through my keyboard....

"Fair chase" IMO is in the eye of the beholder. Whether it's "fair" to hunt coyotes at night with a rifle is a whole discussion in and of itself. Personally I think the coyotes always have the upper hand when we're hunting them- day or night. On the other hand, I don't think that because they are predators they are "lowly varmints" that should be killed on sight at every opportunity. I also think that the tool used to hunt anything should be capable of a clean kill. Even modern "magnum" rimfires are getting marginal beyond 75 yards or so (again- just my opinion). Coyotes are tough. 

This moves us toward the target ID/wolf issue. Its already hard to clearly ID a coyote in the dark. I know a lot of folks would like to see the wolf population reduced (or eliminated) in the UP. However, our DNR is tasked with managing this population and protecting _all_ animals from illegal take. We already know that wolves have been misidentified and killed in the daytime. Stray dogs could also be at risk. Not likely to be a big issue- but one that's worth consideration. 

All this being said, I personally support the legalization of centerfires at night. Possibly with some caliber/projectile restrictions. Lets keep the (polite and professional) conversation going. I'm very interested in what folks have to say on this issue. It's likely to be on our Association's docket with the DNR for some time to come.

John


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

poaching is more a crime of opportunity, guy sees a deer and wacks it. those are the guys that get caught. folks that want to stack up some deer, in it for the money, they dont get caught as offen, IF they dont get greedy they dont get caught at all.I dont see poaching as a valid argument. IMO.

Fair chace may be in the eye of the beholder, but we need to remember, we get beheld alot. folks watch us. good or bad right or wrong. someone screws up we get painted with the same brush. just like 220s we have to police or selfs. IMO we have more to lose from centerfire at nite than we have to gain.

I got my first 22 when I was 6.from that day, all threw my life the word NO YOUR TARGET have been beat into my head. no your back ground, dont take Iffy shots. safety plain and simple. I dont think shooten at eyes is safe

lot of time during the day I hunt with a 22 hornet. nice little gun, good shooter. or a 222 mite be something to look at. But only in zone one and two. but not zone three.

Critters have given me alot of joy in my life, and I recspect them, not just the pretty ones, all of them. myself I wont kill anything for no reason. If I kill any critter It gets ate or sold. wanton waste is the worse crime out there IMO. shooting critters with a rifle that just blows a hole in them, thats a waste IMO.


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## Diogenes (Mar 9, 2012)

gilgetter said:


> lot of time during the day I hunt with a 22 hornet. nice little gun, good shooter. or a 222 mite be something to look at. But only in zone one and two. but not zone three.


There must be some way to limit the downrange energy of a centerfire to kill coyotes out to 150 yds. The law gives a motive for someone to develop a high-powered lareger bore rimfire.


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

Mite be a 30 carbine. fun little gun, not a tack driver but for what it is not to bad. 110 gr 30 cal. more of a pistol round than any thing. I have never seen a round that was not FMJ.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

wild bill said:


> no need to worry john. looks like the mods have taken care of the BM. carry on


So the mods flushed the BM :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Diogenes (Mar 9, 2012)

gilgetter said:


> Mite be a 30 carbine. fun little gun, not a tack driver but for what it is not to bad. 110 gr 30 cal. more of a pistol round than any thing. I have never seen a round that was not FMJ.


I agree it's a fun gun. I think it would be easier to sell a smaller hole with a flatter more accurate path than a bigger hole with a slow wobbly path. Also, the idea of bolt action or single-shot might be easier to sell. The M1 carbine and other semi-autos might be hard sells. Limiting the caliber to under .25 and then maybe the weight and/or speed or the energy of the bullet would be a compromise.


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

I have never shot anything but papper with mine. I was thinking being as slow as it is, It would be a bit more fur friendly. I got off the hunt through superior fire power band wagon years ago. Im fine with bolt or single bang. the problem I see with the small bore centerfires is speed, they are so fast they just blow up what ever they hit. thats why I like the hornet, or 222.


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## PiercedOne (Sep 7, 2007)

Signed it.... Quiet a few laws in MI that are a little silly but someone has to start some where, and this is a great place.


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