# .223 for Whitetails



## Buc Mark (Sep 1, 2010)

I plan on taking my new Bushmaster AR-15 deer hunting this fall. The salesman at Gander recommended Federal Fusion ammo for it. Thoughts?


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

I handload only but look for a 60 - 75 gr conventional bullet like Nosler Partition 60 gr, Win Powerpoint 64 gr, etc.

I am not familiar with the Fusion ammo myself so cannot comment.


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## sixft4par (Apr 1, 2008)

Whats the minimum caliber is MI? I thought in was 6mm?

I hunted in SC several times and guys used 22-250 and 223 and knocked them down.....but the deer there are very small compared to MI. Personally I would stick with something a little bigger.


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## Buc Mark (Sep 1, 2010)

The state minimum is .22 caliber for deer hunting. I know that there are some hunters that don't think a .223 is big enough for MI deer. I just want to try it once and see how I do. I am taking my 30-30 as a backup just in case.


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

223 will do it easily, just load your own though, and use the 70 gr barnes TTSX's, they friggin rock, Colorado minimu cal is 24 caliber for anything bigger than a yote. You will need to ensure you have at least a 1:9 twist, anything more will not stabilize the bullet. Les


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

Those 62gr Fusions should work out perfect.

Any of your Barns 53tsx, 55tsx, 62txs would be excellent choice as well.

60gr Partition, 64gr PP will do the job fine as well.

I run 75gr Swifts out of my .223ai's for deer with excellent results.


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## Buc Mark (Sep 1, 2010)

Thank you! Some forums say with a .223 to go for a head or neck shot. I don't believe that. Do you go for the normal kill zone?


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

Yep, as long it is one of the premium bullets.


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

Don't go for head shots. IF something happens and IF you wound a deer, it's going to be a VERY slow and painful death to the deer.

Ever see a deer with his jaw half off during gun season? I have and it makes me sick! Yes, I did take that deer so it wouldn't have to suffer any longer from a **** shots from a "Yahoo."

Stick to the basics, lungs/heart and it'll = success.


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

Typical success when you match the correct bullet and shot placement with the .22cals.

my '09 opening day buck. Nothing huge, but a decent 9pt.

.223ai w/75gr SSII's. Turned the lungs into mush and took a part of the top of the heart off. Ran around 40yds...


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Buc Mark said:


> The state minimum is .22 caliber for deer hunting. .



Need to clarify that statement with .22 caliber _Centerfire_ rifle as the minimum.


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## localyahoo (May 28, 2009)

SuperSeal110 said:


> Typical success when you match the correct bullet and shot placement with the .22cals.
> 
> my '09 opening day buck. Nothing huge, but a decent 9pt.
> 
> .223ai w/75gr SSII's. Turned the lungs into mush and took a part of the top of the heart off. Ran around 40yds...


 Nice rifle ! is that a custom stock or could you tell me what kind of gun that is. send me a pm if you wish. i am in the market for a new gun Dandy buck as well


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

Trued 700
PacNor barrel, light weight contour, SS, 1/8", 3-groove, finished @ 21"
McMillan Mountain rifle stock, ADL, 50%black 50% orange
Aluminum ADL trigger guard
Callahan firing pin kit
Leupold 3.5-10*40 w/target turrets
Talley rings
Spiral fluted bolt
Bolt knob

Mod the mag box to except 2.500" OAL.










Couple weeks ago, quick 5 shots at 1000yds w/75gr Amax.

"Pencil thin barrels don't shoot..."


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## DTrain (Mar 16, 2005)

HOLY COW! 1000 yds? Dang!


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

Swamp Monster said:


> Need to clarify that statement with .22 caliber _Centerfire_ rifle as the minimum.


Nope. There is no minimum for a centerfire caliber when hunting deer. The law states you cannot use a .22 Cal rimfire or smaller.

ANY centerfire round is legal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Matt V (Dec 8, 2004)

My son shot his first buck last year with a .223. We just used the Remington 55 grain bullet's. I was surprised at the size of the exit hole that the bullet left.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Not to hijack the thread but, does anybody remember the year that Michigan changed the law to eliminate rimfires for hunting deer?


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## sixft4par (Apr 1, 2008)

I know the guys swear by them down south and shoot for the pump station.....not the head or neck. I'm sure with a good bullet you would dump them.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Some years ago while I was a younger fella (than now lol), I was up in Millersburg with a few friends sharing a camp, when a local farmer granted up permission to hunt over his alfafa fields. We were thrilled and took him up on it, then I cam to the realization that my weapons choices were my trusty .30-.30 or my varmint rifle I had brought with me. It was a Ruger stainless steel heavy barreled with a laminated target stock and a Leupold VXII 6-18x, chambered in .22-.250. I opted for the Ruger since the possiblities of some distance greater than I was comfortable with the 30-30, and I drive tacks with it out at 200+ yards. It was a wise choice, I ended up taking a doe on the run at 245 yards off my bipod prone and dumped her with one shot. My partners couldn't believe what they saw and felt I was insane for taking my 'pee shooter', since they were hunting with a 7mm Mag, and a 300 Win mag. The load was a Federal Premium 55grain Boattail hollow point and it just anchored that deer in mid stride.

I prefer a larger caliber, but when push came to shove, my .22-.250 didnt let me down, if I dig up some old pics and scan them, will post them, got wound cavity pics that were pretty impressive.


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

ENCORE said:


> Not to hijack the thread but, does anybody remember the year that Michigan changed the law to eliminate rimfires for hunting deer?



I believe it was around the late 50s.......

I didn't see it in this link but I'll look around some more........this link is good reading by the way.........enjoy

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/DEER_REGULATION_HISTORY_210705_7.pdf


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## Newcub (May 26, 2010)

ajmorell said:


> The guys oversees also don't have any say in the load they shoot either....just saying.


 
True,But the snipers are using .30 cal handloads...If the .223 was worth it they would use them..Just saying..

Newcub


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## Crowhunter (Aug 27, 2005)

flinch said:


> It's been answered on here before. Almost certain it was late 40's or early 50's. I'll try some searches.


I think it was late 50's and early 60's .Bud


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

Newcub said:


> True,But the snipers are using .30 cal handloads...If the .223 was worth it they would use them..Just saying..
> 
> Newcub




There is a reason why snipers don't use .223s.......has nothing to do with the .223 being an inferior cartridge. 

After having witnessed lots of people shot with 5.56s even with fmj's I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer with the proper weight bullet out of one......


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I have no problem with .223's and similar being used for the most part although I personaly would make a different choice. The problem is that most michigan deer hunters are just hunters, they are not gun enthusiasts, nor to they spend much time with their rifles. Those folks know nothing about bullet contruction etc and that is a problem considering that proper bullet choice is critical for both success and a humane harvest with small calibers. For that reason I find them difficult to recommend. Obviously, folks that are efficient with their weapon of choice and have a knowledge of proper bullet design and placement can be very successful with them. So while it can be effective, it is not an "everymans" cartridge so just keep that in mind if you intend to use it and take the necessary steps to be successfull.


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## flinch (Aug 10, 2003)

Swamp Monster said:


> I have no problem with .223's and similar being used for the most part although I personaly would make a different choice. The problem is that most michigan deer hunters are just hunters, they are not gun enthusiasts, nor to they spend much time with their rifles. Those folks know nothing about bullet contruction etc and that is a problem considering that proper bullet choice is critical for both success and a humane harvest with small calibers. For that reason I find them difficult to recommend. Obviously, folks that are efficient with their weapon of choice and have a knowledge of proper bullet design and placement can be very successful with them. So while it can be effective, it is not an "everymans" cartridge so just keep that in mind if you intend to use it and take the necessary steps to be successfull.


That's exactly what we were all saying. You just had to read between the insults and finger pointing, lol. Nicely worded.


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## thelastlemming (Sep 11, 2009)

The bullet.. And, ability to place it. Mean a whole lot more that the cartridge. a .223 with Barnse or Swift bullets placed behind the shoulder will make a whole lot of lung soup.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Buc Mark said:


> Thank you! Some forums say with a .223 to go for a head or neck shot.


That is a _really_ bad idea.

Who said that, Michael Vick??:idea:

NB


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## Newcub (May 26, 2010)

wally-eye said:


> There is a reason why snipers don't use .223s.......has nothing to do with the .223 being an inferior cartridge.
> 
> After having witnessed lots of people shot with 5.56s even with fmj's I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer with the proper weight bullet out of one......


 
I was'nt saying that it would'nt do the job.But I just think that something that weigh's 40 to 60 grains isn't enough led,so to speak.
I watched R.Lee Ermy compare the 5.56 to the AK-47..The 5.56 went through the first part of the cement block & cracked the middle one..The AK went clean threw & pretty much blew it to pieces..

I'm just saying I wouldn't use one..

Newcub


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## sixft4par (Apr 1, 2008)

Newcub said:


> True,But the snipers are using .30 cal handloads...If the .223 was worth it they would use them..Just saying..
> 
> Newcub


 
WHat snipers shoot and what you can kill a deer with are two completely different conversations. Within a reasonable distance I'm sure the 223 will do the trick......it would not be my pick, but it will do it. Bullets are constucted so much better that they used to be.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Swamp Monster said:


> I have no problem with .223's and similar being used for the most part although I personaly would make a different choice. The problem is that most michigan deer hunters are just hunters, they are not gun enthusiasts, nor to they spend much time with their rifles. Those folks know nothing about bullet contruction etc and that is a problem considering that proper bullet choice is critical for both success and a humane harvest with small calibers. For that reason I find them difficult to recommend. Obviously, folks that are efficient with their weapon of choice and have a knowledge of proper bullet design and placement can be very successful with them. So while it can be effective, it is not an "everymans" cartridge so just keep that in mind if you intend to use it and take the necessary steps to be successfull.


Excellent post with some great points. It's become more popular fairly recently with a lot of experienced shooters/hunters and the excellent bullets made for it nowdays giving great results. They knows it's limits, when to take shots, when to pass them, etc. A good shooter/hunter can have excellent results with just about any cartridge, that does not necessarily make it a good deer cartridge for the average hunter for reasons SM stated.


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

Newcub said:


> I was'nt saying that it would'nt do the job.But I just think that something that weigh's 40 to 60 grains isn't enough led,so to speak.
> I watched R.Lee Ermy compare the 5.56 to the AK-47..The 5.56 went through the first part of the cement block & cracked the middle one..The AK went clean threw & pretty much blew it to pieces..
> 
> I'm just saying I wouldn't use one..
> ...


What's enough lead to shoot a deer?

Shoot a cement block with a 62gr Barns or 75gr swift or a good bonded bullet and they'll be way better results. What was R.lee shooting, 55fmj's? 

Wow, when did snipers start handloading their own ammo to use? I always thought they used M118LR, but I guess I was wrong. 

Do you have any experience with the .223 and deer or are you making invalid opinion on no real world experience?


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

You can kill a deer with a bullet, arrow, pencil, knife, stick, paper clip, hammer, screwdriver, WHATEVER *IF* you are SKILLED at doing so! Use what you are SKILLED at and the deer will die quickly and ETHICALLY! Military snipers skills/ammo/guns/experience/training/knowledge in a discussion concerning killing a deer with a given caliber round? NOT related at all.

Buc, regarding your initial post, "I plan on taking *my new* Bushmaster AR-15 deer hunting this fall. The salesman at Gander recommended Federal Fusion ammo for it. Thoughts?" 

SHOOT, SHOOT, and SHOOT some more before heading out into the woods!! ONLY you can determine the answer to your original post after becoming SKILLED with the gun that you are wondering about......


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## Buc Mark (Sep 1, 2010)

That is excellent advice - I plan on going to a range to get as much experience with it as I need to be comfortable with it.


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## Newcub (May 26, 2010)

SuperSeal110 said:


> What's enough lead to shoot a deer?
> 
> Shoot a cement block with a 62gr Barns or 75gr swift or a good bonded bullet and they'll be way better results. What was R.lee shooting, 55fmj's?
> 
> ...


I had watched a program on snipers & they said that they hand there ammo..
Have no idea what R.Lee was shooting..Didn't say or didn't here what they were shooting..The episode was a few months back on the history channel..
No I haven't or do I care to shoot a .223..If I was to go varmit hunting I would load up some 100 gr. bullets for my .308,or smaller if available..
Like I said the .223 would not be my choice..Shot placement is everything..You kill a deer with a .22 lr. if you hit it right..


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

Here's some good info.

What we need is a good, effective, North American deer hunting cartridge and rifle combination. We need a rifle that is reliable, accurate, easy to operate and easy to carry. We need a cartridge that can be chambered in reasonably light rifles and still not kick the shooter out from under his or her hat. A cartridge with a maximum point blank range (+/- 3" from the line of sight) of at least 200 yards and an optimal killing range for taking a 200 pound deer of at least 200 yards. This ideal deer rifle/cartridge combination must shoot bullets of big game hunting diameter and weight that have at least some chance of getting through leaves and twigs that they might accidentally encounter on their way to the target, say .30 caliber and 150 grains, or larger.

Three older, established cartridges and one new cartridge immediately come to mind. These are the .30-30 Winchester, .300 Savage, .32 Winchester Special and .308 Marlin Express. When zeroed to hit three inches high at 100 yards, all four shoot a 150-180 grain bullet fast enough so that it won't fall more than three inches until it is out past 200 yards. A 200 yard trajectory of plus or minus 3" will take over 90% of the deer killed in North America, east or west. These cartridges are available from online retailers or in stores all across North America and they are chambered in fast handling lever action "deer rifles" like the Winchester Model 94, Marlin 336, Savage 99 and the new Henry .30-30. Because these rifles (except for the new Henry) have been made for over a century, there are many good used rifles available to the bargain conscious hunter.

These traditional deer rifles became traditional deer rifles by being very efficient and popular. The lever action is much more convenient to operate from the shoulder than a bolt action, as well as faster for repeat shots and, unlike a bolt action, it is ambidextrous. It is also flat and easier to carry in the hand, or a saddle scabbard, than a bolt action. Its only real competitor today is the autoloading rifle. But the autoloader is generally heavier and not as reliable as a lever action, particularly in very cold or dusty climates, and it may not be legal in all jurisdictions. For all of these reasons, a good lever action makes a very fine deer rifle for most shooters and most conditions.

Lever action rifles are capable of good accuracy. I have owned a number of them and all of them have been accurate. They certainly deserve to be fitted with a good quality scope. For deer hunting, that should be a scope somewhere between 1.5 and 4 power whether of fixed or variable magnification. After Winchester changed the M-94 to angle ejection, scope mounting ceased to be a problem. Of course, it never was a problem for the Marlin, Savage and Henry lever actions, since they eject to the side.

The ballistics of our chosen deer cartridges are perfect for the job. Factory loads give the 150 grain .30-30 bullet a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2,390 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 1,902 ft. lbs. The 160 grain Hornady LEVERevolution 160 grain boat-tail spitzer bullet (BC .330) has a MV of 2400 fps and ME of 2046 ft. lbs. The 170 grain .30-30 bullet has a MV of 2,200 fps and ME of 1,827 ft. lbs.

.300 Savage factory loads launch a 150 grain bullet at 2,630 fps with 2,303 ft. lbs. of ME. The 180 grain bullet in .300 Savage factory loads has a MV of 2,350 fps and ME of 2,207 ft. lbs.

The Hornady LEVERevolution factory load for the .308 Marlin uses a 160 grain Evolution bullet at a MV of 2660 fps and ME of 2513 ft. lbs. This is a new Evolution boat-tail spitzer bullet specifically designed for the .308 Marlin and it has a ballistic coefficient (BC) of .400.

The .32 Spec. Hornady LEVERevolution 165 grain spitzer bullet is factory loaded to a MV of 2410 fps and ME of 2128 ft. lbs. Standard flat point factory loads for the .32 Special give a 170 grain bullet a MV of 2,250 fps and ME of 1,911 ft. lbs.

Reloaders can duplicate all of these loads except the Hornady LEVERevolution loads. LEVERevoultion bullets are not yet available to reloaders.

The maximum point blank range (MPBR) of a scoped .30-30 shooting a 150 grain flat point factory load is about 225 yards; with a 170 grain factory load it is 211 yards. The 160 grain Hornady Evo bullet extends that to 232 yards. For the .300 Savage shooting a 150 grain factory load the MPBR is about 259 yards; with a 180 grain factory load it is 236 yards. The MPBR of the 160 grain Evolution bullet from the .308 Marlin is 261 yards. The MPBR of the .32 Win. Spec. shooting a 170 grain flat point factory load is about 215 yards and the 165 grain Evo bullet extends that to about 230 yards.

As you can see, the .308 Marlin and .300 Savage give an average increase of over 200 fps with consequently flatter trajectory and also increased recoil. Those very sensitive to recoil will find the .30-30 with the 150 grain bullet the most comfortable cartridge to shoot, particularly in a lightweight rifle. The .30-30 with this load is especially suitable for young or beginning hunters. It kicks only a little more than a .243 or .257, but delivers a full size bullet to anchor a deer. Of course, it is also used by many experienced shooters.

Deer are not particularly large or tough animals and what you want to do is put a quick opening bullet into the heart/lung area. A tough, controlled expansion bullet designed for deep penetration usually does not dump energy fast enough for quick kills on deer. This is another reason I favor the 150 and 160 grain bullets in the .30-30 for deer hunting.

There is also a difference in bullet construction within a single weight class. In the Winchester ammo line, for example, the Power Point is a quick opening soft point bullet, while the Silvertip is designed for delayed expansion and deeper penetration.

The recoil picture is as follows, all computed for a rifles weighing 7.5 to 8 pounds (about the weight of a scoped deer rifle). A .30-30 shooting a 150 grain bullet at 2,390 fps generates about 10.6 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. A .30-30 or .32 Spec. shooting a 170 grain bullet at 2,200 fps recoils with about 11-12 ft. lbs. of energy. The .308 Marlin shooting the 160 grain LEVERevolution load kicks the shoote with about 13.4 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. The .300 Savage shooting a 150 grain bullet at 2,630 fps it hits back with about 14 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. With the 180 grain bullet at 2,350 fps, a .300 Sav. has approximately 15.2 ft. lbs. of recoil energy.

These figures are for typical factory loads. I computed recoil energy using the formula given in the 43rd Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook, so if my figures don't exactly match those you read somewhere else, they were probably using a different source. But these figures are close enough for general purposes. All of these numbers are far enough below the average person's maximum tolerable recoil level of 20 ft. lbs. to be considered reasonably comfortable to shoot. Compared to a .30-06 or a 7mm Magnum, these cartridges are a pleasure to shoot.

All four of these cartridges are proven game getters and with good bullet placement they will provide quick kills. They are perfect for feral hogs, deer, black bear and will also do for larger animals such as caribou and elk at short to medium range. The .308 Marlin and .300 Savage with 160-180 grain bullets are particularly effective for larger animals like elk. As always, bullet placement is by far the most important factor in killing power. A .300 Savage bullet in the lungs will result in elk steaks for dinner, while a poorly placed bullet from a powerful medium bore like a .338 Magnum will probably result in a long and fruitless chase. In addition to the famous Savage Model 99, the 2003 version of Remington's Model 700 Classic rifle was chambered for the .300 Savage cartridge.

Despite the popularity of these deer rifles and cartridges, my fellow gun writers don't seem to be singing their praises very energetically. I guess reliable meat-and-potatoes type cartridges just aren't exciting to jaded gun scribes. However, never forget that they bring home the venison.

There are fancier, faster and certainly more expensive cartridges available. A few of them may have some of the advantages of adequate bullet size, trajectory and moderate recoil mentioned earlier. However, it is hard to think of many that combine all of these virtues. The next time you are thinking about a new (or previously owned) deer rifle, remember that even if you have not read much about the .30-30 Winchester, .300 Savage, .308 Marlin Express or .32 Winchester Special recently, they are very hard, if not impossible, deer cartridges to beat.

More info: 

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/guns/2002/06/12-top-deer-cartridges

http://www.imbmonsterbucks.com/info.php?id=150


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## Uber-Schneider (Apr 5, 2008)

I have a Marlin 336 Lever action with a 4x fixed scope, shoot through sight rings in 30-30. Yeah, it does pretty well in shooting and bringing down deer. My only problem with it is the DNRE's rifle/shotgun zone line makes me have to pull out the long & heavy slug gun in the southern LP. Would a .44 lever action be legal in the shotgun zone? Any other rounds comparable to the 30-30 that would work?


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## flinch (Aug 10, 2003)

No rifles in the shotgun zone. There was some talk of allowing rifles in pistol calibers but that hasn't happened yet.


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## ajmorell (Apr 27, 2007)

flinch said:


> No rifles in the shotgun zone. There was some talk of allowing rifles in pistol calibers but that hasn't happened yet.


It went to a vote and got shot down IIRC


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## lodge lounger (Sep 16, 2005)

I'm pretty sure the first Michigan deer season that prohibited .22 rimfires was 1967. I remember my dad grousing about no longer being able to hunt with his .22 magnum, and instead having to use a "blunderbus", a Winchester Model 12 with which he subsequently took many deer.


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

Newcub said:


> I had watched a program on snipers & they said that they hand there ammo..
> Have no idea what R.Lee was shooting..Didn't say or didn't here what they were shooting..The episode was a few months back on the history channel..
> No I haven't or do I care to shoot a .223..If I was to go varmit hunting I would load up some 100 gr. bullets for my .308,or smaller if available..
> Like I said the .223 would not be my choice..Shot placement is everything..You kill a deer with a .22 lr. if you hit it right..


So, what's enough led for deer?


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