# New scope adjusting BEFORE mounting



## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

I read somewhere, dont ask me where that in order to start at ground zero with a new scope so that I dont have to shoot all over the place to start with is to: turn the UP adjustment knob all the way down, count the clicks to all the way up, divide those clicks by 2 and thta will give me the center starting point. Same with left and right adjustments. Does this make sense? I am thinking that I have NO CLUE where the crosshairs are when I get the gun. By doing the above mentioned activity, I will find the ZERO sarting point. Even before mounting the scope? Does this make sense or am I TOTALLY off in my thought process? To me it seems logical: know the total number of clicks in the range of adjustments, divide by 2 and that gives you the ZERO spot.
ANY thoughts appreciated!!


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## ajmorell (Apr 27, 2007)

You're going to have to bore-sight it anyways so what is the point?


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

When I bore sight it and the height and windage are cranked one way or the other, wont that leave to more adjustments later? Dont I want to start as close to zero as I can before bore sighting? If the scope is bore sighted and it is zeroed at that but I have 100 clicks either way, wont that defeat the purpose? I am thinking that I want it bore sighted as close to the center as I can so that I have maximum adjustments thereafter......


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## ajmorell (Apr 27, 2007)

Hunter333 said:


> When I bore sight it and the height and windage are cranked one way or the other, wont that leave to more adjustments later? Dont I want to start as close to zero as I can before bore sighting? If the scope is bore sighted and it is zeroed at that but I have 100 clicks either way, wont that defeat the purpose? I am thinking that I want it bore sighted as close to the center as I can so that I have maximum adjustments thereafter......


I thought about that afterwards. Are you worried you won't have enough adjustment or something? You won't be able to get it bore sighted without making adjustments on the windage and elevation, at least I've never been able to.


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## 3fingervic (Jan 28, 2009)

Your confusing me. The gun doesn't care where the "center" of the scope's elevation is. After you mount that scope on your 22/250 (I keep track) that gun is only going to be on, @ 100 yards, at one spot on the scopes cross hair click configuration. 

Take the bolt out of your gun, put it on bags, and point the gun at a small object about 100 yrds. away. Then, look through the action and the barrel, and manipulate the bags so you can see the small object. Without moving the gun, adjust the scope until the cross hairs are on the object. Double check both, and you're bore sighted. This will get you on paper.


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## BirdieShooter (Feb 7, 2010)

Yeah, just bore sight it and then zero it in on paper. Centering the scope when you start serves no practical purpose (that I know of) for your everyday mounting and sighting. If you want to see how good the scope is shoot the box with it and see if it comes back to the same spot. Now I have had my hands on some scopes that when you start running the adjustments all the way out you can feel the clicks getting harder, like more resistance. IMHO I don't like pushing them out against that resistance unless I have to. I could be wrong but my gut just tells me not to go out there and stress the mechanism for no good reason. I would rather just let the thing keep moving around easy in the middle of its range so it stays happy.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Hunter, you are on the right track!! It is always the smart thing to do to make sure your scope reticle is centered before mounting/sighting in etc. It is not always necessary but it is still the smart thing to do. When you read about guys running out of adjustment and having to shim etc, etc often times it is because they don't know how to properly center the scope reticle to begin with and run out of windage or elevation. Most scopes should be centered from the factory but if it has had any paws on it at the shop, rest assured that the adjustment dials have been played with. 

Centering the scope reticle has absolutely nothing to do in relation to the rifle bore, just the center of the scope. Ofcourse the rifle doesn't care but if you want the full range of adjustments to start the sight in process, centering makes good sense. Especially on a gun that will be used for long range shooting where you might need more adjustment range than the average hundred yards and done shooter.


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

I am confused why it would matter, unless it is just a matter of knowing where you are at for the sake of knowing. You are somewhat at the mercy of your mounts and rings regardless. Are you using adjustable rings? If so, be very careful. 

The more I think about it, I guess it would be a good thing to have an idea how close you are to being maxed out from the start, so you aren't surprised with it when it's too late and not prepared for it. That way you can shim or adjust something in your mounts to give yourself more wiggle room to start with.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

I guess I am thinking if the scope is close to max adjustment to start, that would not be good. That would leave little adjustment should there need any. The scope that I have does not appear to be at the max, just thought that I would ask here before mounting it on my gun. 
Buddy of mine had a cheap scope and we maxed the adjustments out and it was still way off. Bought a good scope and didnt have that problem.
Thanks for the ideas guys and for not throwing me under the bus


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

NoWake said:


> The more I think about it, I guess it would be a good thing to have an idea how close you are to being maxed out from the start, so you aren't surprised with it when it's too late and not prepared for it. That way you can shim or adjust something in your mounts to give yourself more wiggle room to start with.


Thats what I was getting at!


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

*Hunter, you are on the right track!! It is always the smart thing to do to make sure your scope reticle is centered before mounting/sighting in etc. It is not always necessary but it is still the smart thing to do. When you read about guys running out of adjustment and having to shim etc, etc often times it is because they don't know how to properly center the scope reticle to begin with and run out of windage or elevation. Most scopes should be centered from the factory but if it has had any paws on it at the shop, rest assured that the adjustment dials have been played with.*

That too is what I was thinking. I believe that I read about centering the scope before mounting it in one of the books that I have at home.


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## Henrik for President (Sep 21, 2009)

What's the verdict? Did it work well? I'm planning on putting a nikon slug hunter on my 870 and may use this technique. I love working smarter, not harder! Great post!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

I believe that the scope is centered but plan to check for my self before having it mounted. I have done the "count the clicks from start to finish and divide by 2 method" before and will so again. PROBABLY not necessary but will give me piece of mind and eliminate one variable in the HUGE equation in precision shooting.

I asked the manufacturer if I could assume that the scope is centered and his reply was, "More than likely its not... If you want to center it, turn each turret from extreme to the other and split the difference in 1/2".


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## 3fingervic (Jan 28, 2009)

If you're worried about not having enough elevation left on the scope, you could use Burris Signature rings. Watch this video, the guy explains it beautifully and simply.
http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

Great link! Thanks for posting that. I think I like the look of that system better than any of the other adjustable type mounting systems I've seen.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

3fingervic said:


> If you're worried about not having enough elevation left on the scope, you could use Burris Signature rings. Watch this video, the guy explains it beautifully and simply.
> http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html


Burris Z rings are great and work as advertised. But in most cases as long as one has enough adjustment, shimming should not be necessary, especially if one has properly lapped the rings and made sure they are lined up correctly. Manufacturing tolerances on both the rifles and the rings have gotten better over the years but back in the day shimming was pretty common to mask manufacturing problems. 


Imho, centering the scope reticle and resighting the rifle should be the first step if one is having issues and using shims should be a last resort.

Today 30mm scopes are becoming more popular for long range use primarily because they have a larger range of windage and elevation.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Here's a solid investment for mounting scopes. Eliminates the need for shims of any kind assuming the guns receiver is properly machined/spec'd.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...parentType=index&indexId=cat601233&hasJS=true


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## Sam22 (Jan 22, 2003)

EXCELLENT video, I need to book mark that and review it often!


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

What does lapping mean in regards to scope mounting? I am taking my gun and scope to a local gun shop to have the bases installed, scope mounted and boresighted.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Hunter333 said:


> What does lapping mean in regards to scope mounting? I am taking my gun and scope to a local gun shop to have the bases installed, scope mounted and boresighted.


Lapping the rings basically means you are smoothing out any high spots or rough spots and making sure the rings are true (round) and perfectly lined up. Rings that are not true, or not lined up can tweak your scope tube and cause issues with adjustments and lense alignment. (hence the reason Burris came out with the Z rings that can eliminate or take the place of lapping) That kit I have a link to works great and includes alignment bars to make sure the rings are perfectly aligned. Most places will not do this procedure unless you specifically ask for it. Not sure what the charge would be but it is easy to do yourself with that kit.


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

Here's a sketch describing what SwampMonster iis talking about. I exagerated the misalignment to make it easier to see. 










The lapping kit will make the hole through the rings align with eachother so they aren't stressing the scope tube. Think of it like machining the rings after they are mounted to make a near perfect hole through both rings at the same time.


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## 3fingervic (Jan 28, 2009)

Nice illustration Nowake. Thanks for sharing.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

NoWake said:


> Here's a sketch describing what SwampMonster iis talking about. I exagerated the misalignment to make it easier to see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent pic! That is it exactly. Lapping the rings will also ensure that the scope rings are at their best when it comes to holding the scope in place during heavy recoil. Not really an issue on your 22-250 but it is a benefit.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Holy crap this sport can be WAY technical!! I think that I just go to the range, shoot some rounds, and do some adjustments as needed  Thanks for all of the info and keep it coming!


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## BirdieShooter (Feb 7, 2010)

Check out these two alignment tools.

http://www.advancedoutdoors.net/SAT.htm

http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/5533/s

I was about to turn a set of my own on the lathe because I wasn't happy with the point to point style when I found these. I have run across situations where the points touched but the rings were not square to each other (cheap rings, threw them away). With either of these two tools you know for sure they are square and center aligned because otherwise the center rod will not slide through the collet. I went with the SAT because I managed to get a good enough deal that figured was cheaper then the time I would have turning up a set from scratch plus I like the idea that I could turn up a set of the collets for other sizes if I needed to. Right after I got these I put them into a set of un-lapped Ruger rings and the rods were visibly misaligned and obviously would not mate. I put in a set of pointed rods and they were close but no cookie. I ran a reamer and then the SAT rods were visibly aligned but still would not mate together. I put the pointed rods in and they looked spot on. I then did some lapping and finally got the SAT rods to mate. They literally clicked together. I lapped a bit more and then the SAT rods slid together like buttah! I love them and will probably never bother with the pointed rods again.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I've seen the sinclair before and their products are top notch. I had not seen the SAT system however and that does look like a great set up!


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

3fingervic said:


> If you're worried about not having enough elevation left on the scope, you could use Burris Signature rings. Watch this video, the guy explains it beautifully and simply.
> http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html


 
Can I buy and use the inserts noted with NON Burris mounts? I have my scope mounted and I dont like the amount of adjustment left, there isnt much. I would like to use the inserts rather than have to shim, electrical tape, the current rings that I have. I am trying to reduce the amount of variables involved and feel that metal inserts would be more precise than electrical tape shims. Thoughts?

I have absolutely NO ability to make my own rings, machine the ones that I have, etc. AGAIN, holy crap this sport can be technical as to which I am limited in knowledge


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## BirdieShooter (Feb 7, 2010)

The Burris inserts are a synthetic material and I believe they will only fit inside the Burris rings. I have never actually used them but I would in a second. As I understand it the ID of the rings are concave and OD of the inserts are molded to sit in the concave. Someone correct me if I am wrong because I would like to know for sure. (I guess I should just get a set, I have a few good places I could use them) Now as for shimming; I know a lot of people shim fronts or backs with all kinds of different things and are perfectly happy with the results. I personally don't like doing that because it just undoes-does all of the work I did with the SAT I spoke of in my earlier post. If I were to try this I would want to use my adjustable reamer and oversize the ID of the rings far enough to put a relatively thick and soft tape above and below the scope tube on both rings with extra thickness on the top on one end and the bottom on the other as needed. I wouldn't want to just shim up one end or the other and do nothing to the remaining surfaces, that would just open the door back up to kinking or marring the tube. Now I have heard tons of comments from people that say that they never had a problem doing this but I have personally seen some serious marks in tube from it. I may be a overly protective mother hen but I see absolutely no reason to ever have to mark up a tube. Especially when the glass costs as much or more then the rifle itself. Now what I haven't asked yet is what the rings are attached to? Are they attached directly to the receiver or to a base of some sort? If it is a once piece base then you can simply shim up whichever end fixes the problem. If it is a two piece base or two separate rings then you would need to shim the appropriate end and go through the ring alignment, reaming and lapping in order to avoid the possible tube damage that I live in constant fear of. Are you able to get zeroed in the way it is right now? Maybe the most practical choice at the moment is to use it that way if so?


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

I have a once piece base. So I should shim the base, not the inside of the rigns? 
I finally found the origin og my "Crank it all the way......." method. In Dead On, written by Noblitt and Gabrilska, it is described the way I have in earlier posts. I do have some adjustment but not as much as I like. Time to go to the range!!


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## BirdieShooter (Feb 7, 2010)

Shimming the base will allow adjustment without losing ring alignment. If you are shimming inside the rings refer to my earlier post about oversize reaming and soft tape (which is a lot of work and can easily end up not as good as planned). You mentioned that you took it to the gun shop to have it put together, what did they have to say about it? What kind of rifle, scope, rings, base are you working on?


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Savage 22-250
Mueller 8-32x44 Tactical
B square base
Cant recall the rings, dont have the package


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## 3fingervic (Jan 28, 2009)

I assume with 5000+ posts you know how to post a pic. Gun porn please.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

SHOOT!! I took pics yesterday but left them on the camera at home. Will post this evening, thanks for the reminder


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## BirdieShooter (Feb 7, 2010)

I forgot to hammer you about lack of gun porn! What is up with that? I'm posting some now just to avoid withdrawals. 










Ruger M77 MKII in .204 with Nitrex 6-20x50. It likes Hornady 32gr. I have it zeroed in at 265.


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## 3fingervic (Jan 28, 2009)

Nice looking gun. At least now I can sleep. That scope/base/ring combo fits that gun perfect. It looks like you couldn't slide a suger packet between the scope and the barrel. SWEET!


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## BirdieShooter (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks! I still have some work to do on it. I just did the rings and mounted the scope up early this year. It's shooting a pretty nice group already but I still need to work on it a little and spend some more bench time with it until we get all cozy with one another. I am going to have to work over the trigger before I go much farther. It's pretty rough and a touch over 6 lbs. Not very nice at all.


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

Hunter333 said:


> SHOOT!! I took pics yesterday but left them on the camera at home. Will post this evening, thanks for the reminder


We haven't forgot about this.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

OK, OK I will remember tonight  Have to gather things for the range tomorrow so that will remind me about the pics, thanks!
:woohoo1:I FINALLY have the chance to go to the range and the weather is suppose to be perfect!!!


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

3fingervic said:


> I assume with 5000+ posts you know how to post a pic. Gun porn please.


You should not assume anything regarding my ability to post pics, my POSTS are 5000+ not images.... Here is what I can do at this time

  

Hey, that worked pretty well  Heading to the range tomorrow with the . 204 and .22-250 FINALLY!!


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## 3fingervic (Jan 28, 2009)

Great! I love the Savages. Thanks for posting the pics.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

You are welcome!! Tomorrow, or the next day, some pics of 5 shot, one hole groups I HOPE!! Regardless, a day at the the range is something that I have looked forward to for a LONG TIME!!


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

Sweeet! Nice looking rifle. IMO, Savages have come a long way in the looks dept. 

Now for the bad. I would fire that guy who mounted that scope for you. ...................Just kidding.......well....kinda................. Na, it should be fine.


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## Asphalt Dave (Jan 31, 2003)

NoWake said:


> Sweeet! Nice looking rifle. IMO, Savages have come a long way in the looks dept.
> 
> Now for the bad. I would fire that guy who mounted that scope for you. ...................Just kidding.......well....kinda................. Na, it should be fine.



Oh No, they might build some accurate rifles.
But good looking they'll never be. :lol:


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

NoWake said:


> Sweeet! Nice looking rifle. IMO, Savages have come a long way in the looks dept.
> 
> Now for the bad. I would fire that guy who mounted that scope for you. ...................Just kidding.......well....kinda................. Na, it should be fine.


Why do you say that? He is the only guy in town and I have become fed up with his "I am the only guy in town" attitude and would happily head somewhere else!


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

Hunter333 said:


> Why do you say that? He is the only guy in town and I have become fed up with his "I am the only guy in town" attitude and would happily head somewhere else!


Let me start by saying I in no way am trying to pick apart your rig, I like your combo and think it will make an awesome rifle and scope setup. 

The things I noticed about the scope mounting job are probably more of a personal preference than function. First, I don't like one piece bases on a bolt action. The part bridging over the bolt opening does not have any positive effect, and has potential to negatively effect things, even if that potential is tiny. Another thing I noticed is the rear ring riding mostly on that unsupported bridge. It looks like there was room to slide it back and keep it over the rear part of the receiver. That would also put the clamping force from the rear ring farther from the turrets. If he didn't line bore (lap) your rings tweaking the tube right next to the turrets is the worst place. 

Realistically, the way it is will probably be fine. Just my personal preference is different, but I am no expert.


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## glockman55 (Mar 9, 2006)

3fingervic said:


> If you're worried about not having enough elevation left on the scope, you could use Burris Signature rings. Watch this video, the guy explains it beautifully and simply.
> http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html


I use these on all my rifles/scopes. and Yes it is a smart idea to start out with the scope centered on adjustments. Most new out of the box scopes are supposed to be centered. If you go to a long range shooting site you'll hear the same thing. It is also important to make sure your scope is level with the bore of your rifle. Some just slap it on, eye ball it and call it good enough.:lol: Do it right the first time.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

NoWake said:


> Let me start by saying I in no way am trying to pick apart your rig, I like your combo and think it will make an awesome rifle and scope setup.
> 
> The things I noticed about the scope mounting job are probably more of a personal preference than function. First, I don't like one piece bases on a bolt action. The part bridging over the bolt opening does not have any positive effect, and has potential to negatively effect things, even if that potential is tiny. Another thing I noticed is the rear ring riding mostly on that unsupported bridge. It looks like there was room to slide it back and keep it over the rear part of the receiver. That would also put the clamping force from the rear ring farther from the turrets. If he didn't line bore (lap) your rings tweaking the tube right next to the turrets is the worst place.
> 
> Realistically, the way it is will probably be fine. Just my personal preference is different, but I am no expert.


I remounted the scope so I will have to fire myself  Your way of thinking is logical so I will be moving the scope back so that the back rings are over the gun rather than the bolt.


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## glockman55 (Mar 9, 2006)

I like a one piece mount, Much better and stronger than a two piece, I have never had an issue with the single mount affecting loading or ejecting ammo, so why wouldn't you want a stronger mount? plus the one piece mount gives you more mounting positions for rings which will get your scope where it needs to be rather than where someone might think it looks good. JMO


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

I have remounted the scope, moving it back so that both the front and back rings are over the receiver rather than the bolt. Now I just need to load some rounds to shoot!!!!


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

Hunter333 said:


> I remounted the scope so I will have to fire myself  Your way of thinking is logical so I will be moving the scope back so that the back rings are over the gun rather than the bolt.


If the scope is in the right place for you, it looks like you could just bring that rear ring back one cross notch without moving the scope itself.




glockman55 said:


> I like a one piece mount, Much better and stronger than a two piece, I have never had an issue with the single mount affecting loading or ejecting ammo, so why wouldn't you want a stronger mount? plus the one piece mount gives you more mounting positions for rings which will get your scope where it needs to be rather than where someone might think it looks good. JMO


I don't agree that a one piece is always stronger when it spans an opening and is unsupported and not screwed down in the center. Hunter333's base looks pretty stout so it shouldn't be an issue, but I have seen some thinner flimsy ones which IMO has the potential to cause problems. (I even have one on my sporterized 1917 enfield :sad::lol
I never suggested anyone move their scope to where it 'looks good' and away from where it needs to be, I only suggested moving the ring back away from the turrets and more over the receiver.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Just getting "into it" regarding the gun as well as the scope as well as reloading for it! MANY variables, just trying to deal with what I have and going from there. MANY possibilities, now I just need to figure them all out!


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## glockman55 (Mar 9, 2006)

Hunter333 said:


> Just getting "into it" regarding the gun as well as the scope as well as reloading for it! MANY variables, just trying to deal with what I have and going from there. MANY possibilities, now I just need to figure them all out!


 That's how we all learn. Good Luck

By the way I own three Savage Rifles and none of them are Ugly...lol


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

I found the Burris signature rings at Midway but the inserts are not listed for the 30mm tube, just the 1". Thoughts?


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## glockman55 (Mar 9, 2006)

Check on Opticsplanet.com..
http://www.opticsplanet.net/burris-riflescope-signature-rings.html


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## 3fingervic (Jan 28, 2009)

My thought is, that it is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. I have no idea why they wouldn't offer it in the 30mm. I checked the Midway site also, and I found in parenthesis (not available for 30mm rings) while describing how good they are. The description was on a set of 30mm rings. Wow!


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

These are 30mm and in stock. 
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=485115


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

NoWake said:


> These are 30mm and in stock.
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=485115


According to the site, "Includes "Zero" inserts and +/- .010 inserts for both front and rear rings" while the 1" includes 6 inserts. 
Am I missing something? I really do not wish to shim but so far its not looking good......


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

With the rings 4" apart and if you put a +.010 insert in the bottom of the front ring and a -.010 insert in the bottom of your rear ring, it will change your POA about 9 inches at 50 yards. Unless I am missing something.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

NoWake said:


> With the rings 4" apart and if you put a +.10 insert in the bottom of the front ring and a -.010 insert in the bottom of your rear ring, it will change your POA about 9 inches at 50 yards. Unless I am missing something.


That will give me a lot of adjustment room. Like I said, my elevation adjustment is maxed and I dont like that.


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## glockman55 (Mar 9, 2006)

Before you take your scope off for re-mounting, as long as you have it sighted in, stick the bore sight on and take note where in the grid your scope is, then when you get your new rings after re-centering you scope adjustments using the off set bushings try to get the scope to match up on the bore site grid without adjusting you scope. It's a simple process when you get into it. Good Luck


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