# Michigan Pointer Blood



## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Might be a stupid question, but the DNR setter thread got me thinking. Is there an "equivalent" for pointers here in Michigan? Is there a handful of lines that would be considered "Michigan" dogs? Is the often talked about "life expectancy" debate a local issue or general pointer debate?


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I would say no at this point but I think as more and more younger guys get them there be something similar someday. Most of it would come from Bruce Minards stuff I would have to guess that's where most of the pointers are coming from here right now.


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## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

I'm waiting for Hevi to release puppies from his program...I expect a free hat too strategically place in every photo too!! 

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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

With increased number of the younger generation going to pointers for hunting dogs, I would have to assume that you will see more variance in "type" within the next few years, in Michigan specifically. 

Just like any popular breed; you can go get any "type" of lab, setter, or spaniel you want. Just find a breeder that has the one that best suits your style.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

wyle_e_coyote said:


> I'm waiting for Hevi to release puppies from his program...I expect a free hat too strategically place in every photo too!!
> 
> Sent from my PG86100 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


If I had a "program" I would kill more birds....


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

FieldWalker said:


> Is the often talked about "life expectancy" debate a local issue or general pointer debate?


General pointer discussion. 
It's mentioned on boards all over the 'net.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

wyle_e_coyote said:


> I'm waiting for Hevi to release puppies from his program...I expect a free hat too strategically place in every photo too!!
> 
> Sent from my PG86100 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


If you get on the list now, you'll be fourth. Hats will be $20...

However, we're having a problem with Chopper's heat cycle.


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## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

As long as I can hunt the s%!t out of them until they are 15, I'll pay for my hat...

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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Correction: 

Hats will be $1,000 and pups will be $20. The hats are guaranteed for life to never get cancer.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> I would say no at this point but I think as more and more younger guys get them there be something similar someday. Most of it would come from Bruce Minards stuff I would have to guess that's where most of the pointers are coming from here right now.


I would agree (especially owning two HiFive dogs). 
On the question of breeding different lines, I'm sure there's a market, just reserve me a few of the nuclear-powered fire breathers that I enjoy and admire so much

BTW, I have to brag-up my own little HiFive fire-breather: entering the Spring trial season she's ranked 3rd in Michigan coverdog dog of the year standings (open and amateur combined) 1st in the Great Lakes amateur walking standings and she's in the top 3 in the Great Lakes open walking standings. The real problem is that I'm fully capable of screwing her-up better than anyone ever could:lol:


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Hevi said:


> Correction:
> 
> Hats will be $1,000 and pups will be $20. The hats are guaranteed for life to never get cancer.


You keep the hat, I'll take a pointer or two and take my chances with cancer.


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## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

If the hats are anything like the breed, I'll lose it in a cover, and have to spend 3 hours trying to find it...

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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

wyle_e_coyote said:


> If the hats are anything like the breed, I'll lose it in a cover, and have to spend 3 hours trying to find it...


Strap 3 collars on the hat...


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

wyle_e_coyote said:


> If the hats are anything like the breed, I'll lose it in a cover, and have to spend 3 hours trying to find it...
> 
> Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Ohub Campfire mobile app


 
Walking around aimlessly for three hours is kind of the way you guys hunt anyway. It will probably work out fine.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

wyle_e_coyote said:


> If the hats are anything like the breed, I'll lose it in a cover, and have to spend 3 hours trying to find it...
> 
> Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Ohub Campfire mobile app


It will also be torn up easily you won't want to wear it if it rains or is cold


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> It will also be torn up easily you won't want to wear it if it rains or is cold


Exactly. But, you could always make up an outlandish story about why you aren't wearing it and hope people believe it.


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

What makes you think they hunt 3 hours the entire day?





Hevi said:


> Walking around aimlessly for three hours is kind of the way you guys hunt anyway. It will probably work out fine.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Double Gun said:


> What makes you think they hunt 3 hours the entire day?


3 out of 24, they are 12.5%'ers!


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## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

We hunt 3 grueling hours every time!

Breakfast from 7-8..arrive at 1st spot at 8:30...pee all over Kelly M's truck...arrive at 2nd spot at 9...hunt for 1.5hrs...take turns taking pics of the same dead grouse...arrive at 1st spot again...hunt there for 1.5 hrs, and kill 4 grouse that were still there....arrive at bar around noon....day over.
Isn't that how all dedicate grouse hunter do it??

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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Any of you experts remember a dog named Lou's Astro Accellerator or another one named Penelope? 

I'm pretty sure they were developed at least partially in MI and I think it was under the guiding had of Dave Grubb of Lake Orion.

If I recall correctly the first dog was owned by Lou Razek (sp) who owned and ran Highwood Bookshop in Traverse City. It was quite the place. I visited him twice in the 1980's and enjoyed both visits.

Any of you oldtimers remember Lou?


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> Any of you experts remember a dog named Lou's Astro Accellerator or another one named Penelope?
> 
> I'm pretty sure they were developed at least partially in MI and I think it was under the guiding had of Dave Grubb of Lake Orion.
> 
> ...


This is not the expert corner. I turned 5 in December of 1980.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> Any of you experts remember a dog named Lou's Astro Accellerator or another one named Penelope?
> 
> I'm pretty sure they were developed at least partially in MI and I think it was under the guiding had of Dave Grubb of Lake Orion.
> 
> ...


That pre-dates me as well. Dave could probably recall the entire history of Michigan pointers and I bet Bruce Minard could fill a few volumes as well.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> That pre-dates me as well. Dave could probably recall the entire history of Michigan pointers and I bet Bruce Minard could fill a few volumes as well.


I would think you would want to talk to folks like Dave Fletcher and someone that knew Jack Stuart or Roy Strickland. I'll bet pointers have a fair place in the history of MI bird dogs.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Not to mention Brian Woods.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Hevi said:


> This is not the expert corner. I turned 5 in December of 1980.


Dang... oldtimer. I turned "alive" the same month of the same year.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Hevi said:


> This is not the expert corner. I turned 5 in December of 1980.


I was still in the hospital


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

Damned pointers! Do yourself a favor and get a setter! :evil:   ne_eye: :corkysm55


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

midwestfisherman said:


> Damned pointers! Do yourself a favor and get a setter! :evil:   ne_eye: :corkysm55


Why? So I can listen to more barking? Or because I like to brush my dogs so much? Lol


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

k9wernet said:


> Dang... oldtimer. I turned "alive" the same month of the same year.


Kids...


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> Why? So I can listen to more barking? Or because I like to brush my dogs so much? Lol


Any, would be more than I listen to now.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Hevi said:


> Any, would be more than I listen to now.


Me too!


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Randy Strouse a Mi. woodcock bander has developed a line of pointers that are close to what are now called DNR dogs. Not sure but believe it a mix of Elhew/Miller with some HiveFive mix. Their are smaller lighter boned and have done real well in RGS dog of the year trials.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> Randy Strouse a Mi. woodcock bander has developed a line of pointers that are close to what are now called DNR dogs. Not sure but believe it a mix of Elhew/Miller with some HiveFive mix. Their are smaller lighter boned and have done real well in RGS dog of the year trials.



Nice guy, with some very nice dogs.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> I would think you would want to talk to folks like Dave Fletcher and someone that knew Jack Stuart or Roy Strickland. I'll bet pointers have a fair place in the history of MI bird dogs.


If Dave Grubb and Bruce could write a book on the history of Michigan pointers, Dave Fletcher could write a full set of encyclopedias, probably on all notable bird dogs, their trainers, owners and handlers nationally over the last century. 

We shared a ride to Gladwin a couple years for the AF Dog of the Year Awards and Michigan clubs meeting. Dave had so many stories that he'd branch off into several sub stories for each main story and it never stopped the whole way. If I didn't find the history so fascinating, it would have been a very long trip:lol: 

He's getting along in years and doesn't mount a horse any more, but he's still very active as a field trial reporter and I believe he's still the Grand National Secretary. I enter him in my Field Trial Hall of Fame ballot every year.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> Randy Strouse a Mi. woodcock bander has developed a line of pointers that are close to what are now called DNR dogs. Not sure but believe it a mix of Elhew/Miller with some HiveFive mix. Their are smaller lighter boned and have done real well in RGS dog of the year trials.


Randy also has a decent degree of the Michigan Pepsi dogs (I believe generally originating in Guard Rail) who have done fairly well on the Michigan horseback scene for a while.
My oldest male Major is out of Pepsi Generator who was a Michigan HB Dog of the Year and who is also in the pedigrees of Randy's dogs.


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## GSPJAKE (Nov 23, 2007)

Worm Dunker said:


> Randy Strouse a Mi. woodcock bander has developed a line of pointers that are close to what are now called DNR dogs. Not sure but believe it a mix of Elhew/Miller with some HiveFive mix. Their are smaller lighter boned and have done real well in RGS dog of the year trials.


I know the two that he ran in Lansing go back to Guardrail.


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## Blue Briar (Jul 23, 2007)

FindTheBird said:


> Randy also has a decent degree of the Michigan Pepsi dogs (I believe generally originating in Guard Rail) who have done fairly well on the Michigan horseback scene for a while.
> My oldest male Major is out of Pepsi Generator who was a Michigan HB Dog of the Year and who is also in the pedigrees of Randy's dogs.



Was that dog owned and handled by Bill Klenner?


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

So what would make a DNR Pointer?
A dog that hunts and looks don't matter. They are bred because the hunter hunts a crap load and kills birds. The dogs do not compete major field trial events. The comparison to all other dogs made is word of mouth unless some one is invited to hunt with them.
People are naming breeders that are field trial guys. This is not the same at all. 

People have named Bruce Minard. I don't want to put words in Bruces mouth but I would guess this is not the blood he would chase down. Nor Dave Fletcher, Dave Grub or Bryan Wood or even Chaffee . They are looking for something that has a high head and tail and they breed for exceptional brains, Looks, physical athletes etc more power. These guys have a goal of the best dog they can make in every aspect. DNR dogs are what they think they will get the best meat dog that runs with a slower pace so it will run for 4 hours and not 2. There is less emphasis on looks. ( I say this because some are ryman some are field bred) These are different things. 


If I was a pure hunter no worries on Registering dogs I would be breeding droppers. I would not think twice.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

GSPJAKE said:


> I know the two that he ran in Lansing go back to Guardrail.



For the sake of discussion, does it matter if the dogs are out of Guardrail? I keep seeing a lot of aging Pointer names and lines getting dropped around out there, I'm even seeing backyard breeding that drops names like that to justify and sell what they produce.


Blood lines are important, but at what point does it really not matter when Guardrail, any number of Elhews, Millers, Honky Tonk, etc dogs stop mattering? A lot of those dogs have been gone a long time and I like to think the Pointer world is evolving, not standing still. That they are referred to as much as they are is a testament to how good those were, but when do we say enough is enough and look to something newer?


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

WestCoastHunter said:


> For the sake of discussion, does it matter if the dogs are out of Guardrail? I keep seeing a lot of aging Pointer names and lines getting dropped around out there, I'm even seeing backyard breeding that drops names like that to justify and sell what they produce.
> 
> 
> Blood lines are important, but at what point does it really not matter when Guardrail, any number of Elhews, Millers, Honky Tonk, etc dogs stop mattering? A lot of those dogs have been gone a long time and I like to think the Pointer world is evolving, not standing still. That they are referred to as much as they are is a testament to how good those were, but when do we say enough is enough and look to something newer?


AI is happening. It will stop mattering when people don't like what they have or when better breeding replaces it.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Blue Briar said:


> Was that dog owned and handled by Bill Klenner?


I'm pretty sure that's correct.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Merimac said:


> AI is happening. It will stop mattering when people don't like what they have or when better breeding replaces it.




I wasn't really referring to AI breeding but that's an interesting statement nonetheless.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Merimac said:


> If I was a pure hunter no worries on Registering dogs I would be breeding droppers. I would not think twice.


And then linebreed them because you will probably get some pretty bad tails at first, get the style back.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Merimac said:


> So what would make a DNR Pointer?


On the line of the other thread... the idea of DNR "line" is clearly subjective. Yet there was clearly a lot that people had to say about the "line". 

My point/question: is/was there a parallel for pointers?


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

FieldWalker said:


> On the line of the other thread... the idea of DNR "line" is clearly subjective. Yet there was clearly a lot that people had to say about the "line".
> 
> My point/question: is/was there a parallel for pointers?


No.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

FieldWalker said:


> On the line of the other thread... the idea of DNR "line" is clearly subjective. Yet there was clearly a lot that people had to say about the "line".
> 
> My point/question: is/was there a parallel for pointers?


I can't really think of any off the top of head, and I would have to guess since I haven't seen any (that I know of). Randy Strouse and his close hunting buddies do some gun dog breeding, but they randomly inject field trial genes which might not produce the DNR dog parallel that you are thinking of.

To me, that parallel might suggest something like the results of several generations of trial washout pointer breedings which might possibly produce a dog with less drive, athleticism and more mediocre conformation, but would still retain enough tools to make a workable gun dog.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> To me, that parallel might suggest something like the results of several generations of trial washout pointer breedings which might possibly produce a dog with less drive, athleticism and more mediocre conformation, but would still retain enough tools to make a workable gun dog.


Wow...


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> I can't really think of any off the top of head, and I would have to guess since I haven't seen any (that I know of). Randy Strouse and his close hunting buddies do some gun dog breeding, but they randomly inject field trial genes which might not produce the DNR dog parallel that you are thinking of.
> 
> To me, that parallel might suggest something like the results of several generations of trial washout pointer breedings which might possibly produce a dog with less drive, athleticism and more mediocre conformation, but would still retain enough tools to make a workable gun dog.


That notion would assume trial dogs make superior grouse gun dogs. That gun dog breedings are inferior in all the areas you mentioned?

A DNR dog is a grouse mutt, a mating of nothing more than two superior grouse gun dogs, their owners, well the they've got the statistics to prove out the results.

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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> That notion would assume trial dogs make superior grouse gun dogs. That gun dog breedings are inferior in all the areas you mentioned?
> 
> A DNR dog is a grouse mutt, a mating of nothing more than two superior grouse gun dogs, their owners, well the they've got the statistics to prove out the results.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Yes that appears to be the notion.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> That notion would assume trial dogs make superior grouse gun dogs. That gun dog breedings are inferior in all the areas you mentioned?
> 
> A DNR dog is a grouse mutt, a mating of nothing more than two superior grouse gun dogs, their owners, well the they've got the statistics to prove out the results.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


True all the way around. Is also say that there is always a huge waiting list for DNR dogs and I could go out and find a field bred setter or pointer in about 5 minutes so hunters must really desire this type of breeding.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> True all the way around. Is also say that there is always a huge waiting list for DNR dogs and I could go out and find a field bred setter or pointer in about 5 minutes so hunters must really desire this type of breeding.


That's because we hunters just don't know any better than to buy such inferior stock. There is some real comfort in not knowing any better and just lowering your expectations until the dog you have fits them. Heck, that way my dogs are always great.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

jay johnson said:


> that's because we hunters just don't know any better than to buy such inferior stock. There is some real comfort in not knowing any better and just lowering your expectations until the dog you have fits them. Heck, that way my dogs are always great.


boom!


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> That's because we hunters just don't know any better than to buy such inferior stock. There is some real comfort in not knowing any better and just lowering your expectations until the dog you have fits them. Heck, that way my dogs are always great.


Jay I appreciate your sarcasm and agree with your point. Field trials have done a ton of good for improving breeds but field trial dogs aren't always the best choice for us "meat hunters".


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

BIGSP said:


> Jay I appreciate your sarcasm and agree with your point. Field trials have done a ton of good for improving breeds but field trial dogs aren't always the best choice for us "meat hunters".


why's that?


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Matt, are you implying that because the lack of drive and athleticism the dogs work closer and that's the magic ingredient for piling up dead birds?

I guess I'm just not seeing the connection between drive/athleticism and dead birds.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> why's that?


Pretty simple. What I want may not be what they're breeding for. It may be but it may not be. Lots of field trial dogs make great meat dogs no doubt. I'm just saying some people might not want as much punch etc.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> Jay I appreciate your sarcasm and agree with your point. Field trials have done a ton of good for improving breeds but field trial dogs aren't always the best choice for us "meat hunters".


Oh heck I'm just goofing around on the internet on a cold Saturday morning before I head up to Cabela's to try to buy a used AYA #2.

As I expressed in the other thread about "DNR" dogs the line between a gun dog and a field trial dog is so blurred that I can't tell where one starts and the other ends. And I personally don't care.

I also think that we assume there is some master plan to these gun dog breeding and I can tell you that in my experience that is not always the case. 

Case in point. My current old dog Meg. When my friend drove up from OH to MN to breed his "DNR" type female 10 years-ago we planned to breed it to a somewhat "DNR" type male I was hunting at the time. 

I say somewhat because Sam was a direct son of Jerry Kolter's great dog Blue Chief who was a field trial bred dog with lots of horseback shooting dogs in his background. The female that whelped Sam was more of the Wicksall, Ammann, etc...type blood. 

Well, Sam would not breed her so after a week of trying and getting ever more anxious in not wanting to miss a chance to breed what was likely going to be her last litter we drove 5 minutes over to Jerry Kolter's house and bred her directly to Chief. A great alternative.

We knew of no other 'DNR" type dogs in the area so, breeding to Chief who was a really good grouse dog seemed to be the best option at the time but certainly was not the plan.

I could say the same for the last couple litters my hunting partner has bred. I'm pretty certain if we had more male dogs of this DNR type locally he would have considered them first, but we don't. So, he went to males owned by Jerry Kolter. 

The dogs for the last couple generations have been far more field trial type blood than anything else. 

They are working out fine and making their grouse hunter owners very happy.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> Oh heck I'm just goofing around on the internet on a cold Saturday morning before I head up to Cabela's to try to buy a used AYA #2.
> 
> As I expressed in the other thread about "DNR" dogs the line between a gun dog and a field trial dog is so blurred that I can't tell where one starts and the other ends. And I personally don't care.
> 
> I also think that we assume there is some master plan to these gun dog breeding and I can tell you that in my experience that is not always the case.



Jay,

At least with upland retrievers I hunt with, the best of them seem to be a mix of field trial dog, hunt test dog, and meat dog.

Maybe you're onto something.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> Jay,
> 
> At least with upland retrievers I hunt with, the best of them seem to be a mix of field trial dog, hunt test dog, and meat dog.
> 
> Maybe you're onto something.


Fritz:

I'm not on to anything that wasn't been going on long before I was even paying attention. 

At this point I've got maybe three more cycle of hunting in me. I'm just going to keep making my best guesses on where to get a dog based on my gut feeling and let it go at that.

I'm sure others have better dogs but what I have had generally seems to work.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

What I mean Jay is maybe your onto something for the purpose of this discussion. 

I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel either, I wish I could go out and buy a fifty pound flushing lab with a high tail and lots of bottom when ever I was ready, I can't without some risk, so I'm trying to breed to get what I got again and reduce the risk.


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