# What exactly is a quality deer?



## leon (Jan 23, 2000)

After reading this new (and very long) thread for an hour, I have to weigh in on this subject too.

I'm 47 and I've deer hunted 36 years in the Eastern UP. I can remember how awful things were in the late sixties and early seventies when it was tough to even see a deer some days. 

In those booming deer years of the late 80's, I was one of those die-hards who did everything I could to kill my four bucks a year (all 1.5 year old deer) and I passed up the does because I too was taught that we don't kill the animal that is carrying our future buck.

About 1990, I started practicing something on a remote parcel of state land. I didn't have a fancy name for it and I didn't know there was a national association that promoted the concept, but I started passing up smaller bucks. It seemed like a simple and very common-sense approach. Let a few small bucks go, and you'd have some survive to become mature bucks.

Now we had become so proficient in our hunting practices, (we were one of the first to bait in this area), that even in this remote area, I believe we were killing almost all the bucks in our area each year. Because of our harvest practices, very seldom did we see a mature buck, but it was common to see 3 to 4 small bucks on some days early in the season.

A remarkable thing happened once we stopped trying to kill every little spikehorn and four-pointer we saw. We started seeing some nice bucks, and throughout the 1990's, we regularly saw and took a number of very nice mature bucks on state land.

One of the most studied deer herds in the state is the Drummond Island deer herd where they have had a no-spike rule for the last three years. There is a considerable amount of state land on Drummond Island. They also have had a mandatory deer check regulation, so they have excellent biological data on the success of this QDM program. Last year, hunters took 50% more 2.5 year old deer that averaged between 7 and 8 points. Their doe harvest is also significantly increased under the experimental QDM program.

They aren't shooting any less deer and hunters have simply traded in those little spike racks for some very nice bucks that they will remember long after the memories of last spikehorn have faded. Hunter satisfaction with this experimental QDM program, according to DNR biologist Rex Ainslie, is quite high.

QDM works. It works in the UP. It works on state land. It works on private land where people give it a chance. Once you have tried it and experienced its success, you won't ever want to go back to shooting "Sparky the WonderBuck."


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

A "doe only" season would probably financially break our DNR because all the "I have to shoot a buck" guys probably wouldn't go. Can you imagine the humiliation of going back to work only to have taken a doe, instead of a buck (spike,4-pt). 

Neal


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

but neal that could be a "trophy of a lifetime" to some folks. are you going to try and deny them this opportunity? it is their god given right as hunters.

don't get me wrong people and say i am making fun of someone's small buck/first buck that they have harvested. i am referring to people who continually harvest spike/four/six points/1.5 year old bucks year after year after year. 

if you don't think so, give me your best shot.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

What the heck, never could resist a bulls-eye. I will incorprate Webster if you don't mind:

Main Entry: ar·ro·gant 
Pronunciation: -g&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin arrogant-, arrogans, present participle of arrogare
Date: 14th century
1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance in an overbearing manner <an arrogant official>
2 : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance <arrogant manners>


Did you go to U of M? <----<<<


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

I think the appropriate word for the above comments is: 

Sarcasm: a deliberate uses of your opponents opinion, to futher your opinion. Often successfully used in debate. (My definition not Webster)

Neal
BSBA~ CMU 1989


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Arrogance is far beneath me.

Farmlegend
U of Michigan - Ann Arbor
BBA 1979


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

i love it when a plan comes together

joe, how long did it take someone to look that up for you.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

joe here are a couple for ya

narrow minded 
Main Entry: nar·row-mind·ed 
Pronunciation: "nar-O-'mIn-d&d, "nar-&-
Function: adjective
Date: 1625
: lacking in tolerance or breadth of vision : PETTY
- nar·row-mind·ed·ly, adverb
- nar·row-mind·ed·ness, noun

small minded
Main Entry: small-mind·ed 
Pronunciation: 'smol-'mIn-d&d
Function: adjective
Date: 1847
1 : having narrow interests, sympathies, or outlook
2 : typical of a small-minded person : marked by pettiness, narrowness, or meanness <small-minded conduct>
- small-mind·ed·ly adverb
- small-mind·ed·ness noun 

obstinate
Main Entry: ob·sti·nate 
Pronunciation: 'äb-st&-n&t
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin obstinatus, past participle of obstinare to be resolved, from ob- in the way + -stinare (akin to stare to stand)
Date: 14th century
1 : perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion
2 : not easily subdued, remedied, or removed <obstinate fever>
- ob·sti·nate·ly adverb
- ob·sti·nate·ness noun
synonyms OBSTINATE, DOGGED, STUBBORN, PERTINACIOUS, MULISH mean fixed and unyielding in course or purpose. OBSTINATE implies usually an unreasonable persistence <an obstinate proponent of conspiracy theories>. DOGGED suggests an admirable often tenacious and unwavering persistence <pursued the story with dogged perseverance>. STUBBORN implies sturdiness in resisting change which may or may not be admirable <a person too stubborn to admit error>. PERTINACIOUS suggests an annoying or irksome persistence <a pertinacious salesclerk refusing to take no for an answer>. MULISH implies a thoroughly unreasonable obstinacy <a mulish determination to have his own way>.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

20 bucks on the guy with the fastest draw. lol


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

one more:

pompous
Main Entry: pomp·ous 
Pronunciation: 'päm-p&s
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
1 : excessively elevated or ornate <pompous rhetoric>
2 : having or exhibiting self-importance : ARROGANT <a pompous politician>
3 : relating to or suggestive of pomp 
- pomp·ous·ly adverb
- pomp·ous·ness noun

lowly fireman/paramedic ~ hfcc,scc,wsu when did i graduate?


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Now I know you went to U of M 
Not enough people took a shot, so you had to join in and shoot at yourself? Just when I am ready to give up on you, you show such an admirable quality as to publicly poke fun at yourself. Pulled your head a bit, not the best follow through, but indeed a good shot at yourself. In that light, I offer an open apology. You are alright in my book!
Anyway, much more enjoyable than the QDM issue Keep at it! <----<<<


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Just interested, how successfull(bucks taken) have jamie and Neal been this year or/and since you started practicing your "qdm"?


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Ohhhh man, Beer and Nuts we were on a roll. We almost had forgotten about the issue completely. What'd ya have ta go and ruin a good thing for? Tomorrow is Thanksgiving even. No more, no mas.... <----<<<


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

B & N~ Good Question

In the fourth year we have been attempting QDM on my property and connecting properties I have not taken a buck. I have taken 3 does per year.

Neal


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Oooouuucchhhhh!

After that first year you should have been killing those 2.5 year old 8 points???? But oh well, you must be waiting for that 5.5 year old 11 point, just grind him up and add alot of fat.

Happy T-day!


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

ah, the "sarcasm"

Main Entry: sar·casm 
Pronunciation: 'sär-"ka-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut
Date: 1550
1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain <tired of continual sarcasms>
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm <this is no time to indulge in sarcasm>

but i will say i have cornered the market on "wit"

Main Entry: wit
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German wizzi knowledge, Old English witan to know
Date: before 12th century
1 a : MIND, MEMORY b : reasoning power : INTELLIGENCE
2 a : SENSE 2a -- usually used in plural <alone and warming his five wits, the white owl in the belfry sits -- Alfred Tennyson> b (1) : mental soundness : SANITY -- usually used in plural (2) : mental capability and resourcefulness : INGENUITY
3 a : astuteness of perception or judgment : ACUMEN b : the ability to relate seemingly disparate things so as to illuminate or amuse c (1) : a talent for banter or persiflage (2) : a witty utterance or exchange d : clever or apt humor
4 a : a person of superior intellect : THINKER b : an imaginatively perceptive and articulate individual especially skilled in banter or persiflage
- at one's wit's end or at one's wits' end : at a loss for a means of solving a problem
synonyms WIT, HUMOR, IRONY, SARCASM, SATIRE, REPARTEE mean a mode of expression intended to arouse amusement. WIT suggests the power to evoke laughter by remarks showing verbal felicity or ingenuity and swift perception especially of the incongruous <a playful wit>. HUMOR implies an ability to perceive the ludicrous, the comical, and the absurd in human life and to express these usually without bitterness <a sense of humor>. IRONY applies to a manner of expression in which the intended meaning is the opposite of what is seemingly expressed <the irony of the title>. SARCASM applies to expression frequently in the form of irony that is intended to cut or wound <given to heartless sarcasm>. SATIRE applies to writing that exposes or ridicules conduct, doctrines, or institutions either by direct criticism or more often through irony, parody, or caricature <a satire on the Congress>. REPARTEE implies the power of answering quickly, pointedly, or wittily <a dinner guest noted for repartee>.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

i had the opportunity to harvest a nice 2.5 year old 7 point with my bow and 2 does with my gun, i was the only one to have the oppourtunity to harvest a "shooter" buck (more than six points with an outside spread even/or extending past his ears). my party also harvested 6 other does during gun season, no bucks. they elected to pass on several questionable bucks and harvested does instead. many mature bucks were sighted during bow season and these sightings have increased every year for 4 years. we plan to harvest several other does and hopefully a mature buck during muzzleloader or late bow season. if not, we know that our sacrifices will lead to tremendous rewards.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

B & N~ I doesn't hurt a bit......OK a little. I can't control the actions of others. We do have a few properties nearby that don't adhere to QDM practices, yet sure benefit from our commitment. There have been some REAL nice bucks from our neighbors properties. I think that the young bucks that I let go, end up a few miles away in their natural migration to nearby areas.There are many factors that have to be addressed to make these programs succesfull. One of our biggest problems, right now, seems to be poaching, local CO found 18 dead deer in one field. I am satified with the outcomes of my hunting since adapting QDM, the most noticable thing has been the increase of buck sign and activity(rubs, scrapes, grunting,fighting) Please don't mis-read my post, I have had many opportunities to shoot 1.5, and 2.5 year old bucks, and some pretty close calls with some real Dandys. to tell you the truth I am having a ball just hunting and watching all the activity. I am also waiting for that mature buck to make a mistake, I know there a few out there I just haven't connected yet. I will be taking my freezer doe this weekend, hopefully with my .44 Mag.

You have a great Thanksgiving too.

Neal


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Certainly a lot to digest here but I do consider it very positive to be talking about deer management and improving the deer herd no matter how good or bad it may be throughout the state.


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