# Are muzzle loaders really that finicky?



## tenring (Oct 13, 2004)

Finally broke down and bought a muzzle loader (stainless composite Omega). Would usually bow hunt late season, but if you can't beat em, join em. Been doing some research on loads, powder, etc. and dang is thereis a lot of conflicting data. I know, I just gotta go to the range and see what works, but it can get a little crazy with all the variables that can affect accuracy. From my research, here is a list of concerns that came up a lot about loads, powder, accessories, etc. 

Propellant
Powder or pellets
Pyrodex
Triple 7
American Pioneer Powder
Assortment of other powder/pellet mfgs.
How many grains
By weight or by volume


Bullet & Sabbot
Bullet type
Bullet mfg
Official bullet diameter in relation to exact barrel diameter
Bullet weight
Sabot type
Sabot diameter and wall thickness
Sabbot design as it relates to how easy it is to load

Ingnition
CCI, Win, etc. 209 primer
Rem Kleanbore 209 primer
.25 acp conversion kit ($60) (but have to buy and additional $25-$30 de-priming/priming kit if you don't own the tools)
Variflame conversion (couldn't find a single independent review of this)
209-4 .410 primers (discontinued and very hard to find)

Cleaning
Lube or unlubed between shots
Clean with plastic and/or powder solvent or water only
Clean between shots or not
Clean between shots with spit patch or solvent
Use a jag with a rotating head so follows the lands and grooves much- better or regular jag
What type of anti-sieze do you use and how often to check breach plug


Loading
Stock rod or XS Sight power rod
What type of bullet starter
Should you use a bullet starter accessory that rotates the bullet down the barrel or not

These are a lot of the issues that seemed to come up the most with muzzle loaders. Are these things really that finicky. I guess I'll find out at the range soon enough, but after the research, I was like, this sounds like it could get frustrating, even as much fun as shooting can be. 

My main concern right now is the primer/bullet/powder combination I am going to start with. Since I don't want to buy the .25acp conversion yet, I am going to try the Kleanbores, with 100 grns of American Pioneer in powder form with a Hornady 240 gr. SST or XTP. Can anyone that shoots the 240 SST or the XTP in an Omega tell me how difficult it is to load and what type(color) and manufacturer (MMP) of sabots are you using. I know a lot of people shoot the Shockwaves, which I guess is an SST with a different sabot. I have read conflicting stuff where some say the SST's load easier and are more accurate because of the Sabots Hornady uses, where some say the T/C Shockwaves are better loaders and more accurate.


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## Ninja (Feb 20, 2005)

Here's my opinion for what it's worth.

Alot of people drive themselves nuts trying to obtain MOA accuracy from a muzzleloader.

You're gonna use it to hunt deer, you want to be able to hit a 9" kill zone at 100 yds....right???

I don't shoot an Omega, I have 3 CVS ML's, and it took me about 3 different combo's with each to get 3-4" groups at 100 yds.

Don't over think it. It should be pretty easy to find the right combo with 1 trip to the range.

Hope this helps.


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## Smith & Wesson man (Oct 22, 2005)

I bought a omega last year and I wasn't sure what to use either. I have gone to three different powders, two 209 primers, and two bullet choices since. You will more than likely have to try some on your own. Every rifle is different, and what works great for me might not for yours. What has worked well for me is 100gr (loose) of american pioneer, remington 209 primers, and hornady 250gr sabots. The other two powders that didn't work well for me was pyrodex and triple 777 in pellets. For me american pioneer shots very clean and it is a easy clean up. I just have to take the breech plug out and pour warm water down the barrel, and then go thru with a few patchs until it is dry. Then I put bore butter down the barrel after I am done with it for awhile. As far as bullets go I used to use 245gr powerbelts and they are really easy to load. BUT, this brand has been talked about a great deal on this forum. They don't expand well or leave much of a blood trail. They are accurate, my friend took a nice doe with my omega, but their wasn't much of a blood trail and we were happy that their was snow on the ground. If you have any other questions ask All the other powders and bullets are good, you will have to see for yourself what works best for you!


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## tenring (Oct 13, 2004)

Thanks for the info S&W. Your setup is about the same thing I'm gonna start with. Are the Rem primers you're using the Kleanbores. Can you also tell me which Hornady you're shooting. Do you use the sabots that come with the bullets. If so, which color are you using. It seems like the green or black MMP sabots seem to come with a lot of the Horanady's. From some of the stuff I've read off the net, seems like the sabot you are using can help or hurt loading and accuracy. How easy are you're bullet/sabots to load. From some research, sounds like a few people have messed up the stock rods that come with the omega trying to load it. Probably gonna fork over the $25-$30 for the XS power rod. I don't want to use the powerbelts for the reasons you mentioned and from what I've read. One other thing, I am looking to get one of those jags/bullet loaders that rotate. Be curious if any one that has used one, has noticed a difference in loading saboted bullets.


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## Chrome steel (Apr 6, 2003)

Tenring, I also have the Omega got it year it came out stainless with grey laminate. Anyway hope this helps about fireing/target shooting. I'm not going to say wich grain bullets to use wich primers and grains of poweder, that would be your call. I do belive that cemistery and balance should be a factor here. Wich I belive in sticking with as many products from the gun maker of choice. In this case T/C products wouldn't you agree that a T/C bullet would be better matched for a T/C gun then a for a Knight vise verse? 

I think powder form choice is key, pellets hands down are a must your learn why quit fast as you try to zero you gun in at 100 yds. (cuts reload time)

As a cleaner and a sidekick to accuracy (see why soon) I'd get T/C number 13 bore cleaner,I know no other cleaner that cuts easier then this stuff. And as to Bore Butter, I only apply it when I put it up to stoarge for next season. (see why soon)

Cleaning patches get the T/C or like version in size this matters its key for your little brass bore cleaner tip the thing thats about 3 inchs that connects to your push rod. If its to big or little it will get stuck in barrell of gun.

Ok now this is what I'm getting at. trying to help you stress less with speed, speed meaning not fast but faster. 
About fireing your gun, every time this is done your muzzel gets caked with residue wich in turn after every shot changes volocity of bullet leading to drop in shot. This is where the sidekick number 13 comes in with the patches and brass tip to quickly swip through barrell after ever 3 shots. Then to zero in on your shot, swip every other shot on till your shooting with a clean bore. This is to get your first shot to be the main shot like youd walk into the woods with a clean bore. 
Bore butter stay away at this point it will only change your shooting pattern dramadicly its a hasle. 

Swiping between shots, apply patch to muzzle push in a little and add couple drops of number 13 push back and forth repeat as need or willing, then put a couple dry patches thru then fire a 209 primer cap thru it and reload.

Oh yeah me personally I stay away from water when cleaning my gun its only rust waiting to happen sooner or later. With cleaning products these days its not neccessary its a new day number 13 is a wonder and its all natural & safe.

T/C leader in muzzle loaders, stick with T/C products they know there guns better then others.

It takes time and pateints GOOD LUCK............


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

M.L.'s ARE NOT THAT FINICKY! The new inlines are damn near like shooting a rifle. In fact the old side locks are about the same. Find some bullets you think you will like and then play around with the powder charge. You will find that most bullets will shoot fine when you find the powder charge they like. My buddy can shoot right alongside my knight inline at 50 yards with is Hawken and a patched round ball!

The biggest thing to remember is just don't get caught up in having to shoot the max powder charge the gun will handle.

Brian


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## tenring (Oct 13, 2004)

That's alot of good info. I was kinda thinking the same thing about sticking with a lot of the T/C stuff because should be desingned to work best with the gun, but it doesn't always work out that way. I do plan on trying the T/C Shockwaves with the sabot that comes with them. I'll pick up that TC#13. I realize that the pellets are a lot more convenient, but I want to try the loose American Pioneer, and I heard their compressed sticks aren't as good as their loose powder.


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## Smith & Wesson man (Oct 22, 2005)

I use the kleanbore 209's. The other two guys gave you great advice also. *Chrome steel* was right using T/C no. 13. I use it also, and it does a fantastic job. I usually swab also after two shots, with a little dab on number 13, but with the american pioneer (it is really clean) I might go four before I use a swab. *Grundy* was right that you don't have to use max powder loads. My T/C says it can take 150, but 100 will get the job done. I use the red tip 250gr sabots. They just come with the wads. Not the easy loads that you can put pellets on them. I usally pick them up at Dunhams pretty cheap. I might be wrong, but I think the T/C bullets for sale are made also by hornady. I hope this helps! Have you decided what kind of optics you will put on that bad boy? Take care

p.s. if you are going to get american pioneer buy loose, not the sticks. I have heard they don't burn very well. Just my two cents.


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## tenring (Oct 13, 2004)

Thanks. I was gonna go with the loose over the sticks. I was going to maybe buy a container of the premeasured APP and just re-use those after buying just the regular loose APP. Not sure on the scope yet, was leaning toward a Busnell Elite 3200 2-7x. Do you have any recommendations for bases and rings for the omega.


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## Smith & Wesson man (Oct 22, 2005)

that was what I did with the pre-measured sticks I have heard a lot of guys using that bushnell scope on their muzzleloaders, I use a t/c 1-5 scope with their base and rings. I keep tight groups at 100 yards.


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## MisterEd (Jan 16, 2006)

You are probably so full of ideas and possibilities this won't help much. I was in the same boat as you. I broke down and started muzzleloader hunting two years ago. I'm kind of a perfectionist so I resisted as long as I could thinking I would be disappointed with muzzleloader performance. Got a good spot behind the house to hunt in muzzleloader season so I treated myself to an enclosed warm-tight blind and put a little sheephearder's stove in it. Anyhow...I chose the Knight Revolution (and Weaver K-4) and have been able to shoot 1-1/2" groups with 245 gr. Powerbelt bullets and 3 Triple seven pellets. I use the CCI 209M primer but I have read recently that Knight Disc Extreme in lines like standard WW primers. It could be poor judgement on my part but the WW primers may be something I will try next purchase. The Triple Seven cleans up easily but you will find more cleaning needed in the action of a muzzleloader than you are used to with centerfires. Remember to dry and foul your bore before you load after cleaning by firing 3-4 primers in the empty bore. If you use sabots you will need the appropriate solvent to remove the plastic. During the season I leave my Knight charged for up to a week on the advice of Jason in the Knight customer service department. In Michigan a muzzleloader is unloaded if the primer is removed. If you sight for it and practise you should be effective at 200 yards with a pointed bullet and a 150 gr. charge. Have fun. Let us know how it shoots for you!


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## SPH (Jan 20, 2004)

Most of the problems of the past were due to moisture, mis-fires(old cap primers), or lack of access to clean the breech plug thoroughly. Since the introduction of the 209 primer, and the ability to break a gun down better for cleaning, these are becoming problems of the past.

Lots of good info above!


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## Al L (Mar 22, 2001)

Here is a place to learn about what people who use the spin jag think.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1445879

Also Sabotloader has just gotten his Omega a few weeks ago and I bet he has put over 100 loads thru it already.

 Al


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## toothycritter (Dec 26, 2005)

out of my encore i shoot 85 grains of triple 7 and a 200 grain shockwave. have never had a deer go farther than 50 yards with this combo. when the shock wave goes in it puts a hole you can put your fist through. they are awesome. t/c designed them for the omega and the encore. I always clean between shots . black powder is realy corosive. i use just a regual 209 from reloading my shotgun. a ball starter is a ball starter just enough to get it down the barrell a few inches. last they are not finicky at all. just do not use too much powder for your bullet so that it flys true and does not wobble when shot.


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## Anderson (May 17, 2005)

tenring, I also have an Omega and like you were very confused on the load and bullet even though I have shot traditional smoke poles for several years. I've tried powerbelts, tc sabots, hornady 45-250 xtp and hornaday 44-240 xtp. The biggest issue I had with the Omega vs other inlines was how tight they loaded. I couldn't get a second shot loaded without cleaning. I finally called TC to talk to a tech guy. They were super helpful. They suggested I lap the barrel and told me to get NAPA valve grounding compound. You dab a little on a patch and swab the barrel about 30 times. What a difference that made. That takes minor burrs out of the rifling and now I can load a lot easier. Oh I think it even improved accuracy. I'm currently using 130 gr with the 44-240 xtp. Hope this helps

Tim


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

i wouldn't accept a 3-4" group @100 with today's equipment.

i shoot an omega. tested a lot of bullets. tested pyrodex, 777, and bm3. my experiences supported what i had read - pure lead bullets seemed to be the most forgiving in the accuracy department, no matter what gun they were shot out of.

i prefer loose powder. i believe there is some accuracy to be gained by using it. i do admit that pellets are extremely convenient in the field, but pre-measured powder charges are fine as well.

i would stay away from powerbelts if you're concerned about accuracy and penetration. their conical design is a step backwards in ballistic evolution. and they are well known to shatter or otherwise lose weight upon penetration. there was an excellent article in shooting times about muzzle loading bullets a few months ago. it supported this - the powerbelt performed the worst in accuracy and penetration of all 12 bullets tested. 

i'd highly recommend the barnes x, hornady sst/xtp's, pure lead such as buffalo bullets SSB's, noslers partitions, swift a-frames, winchester platinum tips (same bullet used in the shotgun saboted slug), etc. these are all proven bullets, with reliable expansion, and deep, straight-line penetration capabilities.

don't get caught up in heavy powder charges. as a rule, most of todays guns should shoot 100 grains of 777 fine, but you don't need to go that high if you don't want to. i shot my personal best at the range - a 4 shot, 3/4" group using 80 grains of 777 under a 285 grain buffalo bullet SSB. and shot a doe this year using 85 grains of 777 under a 325 grain buffalo bullet SSB. (incidentally, the first combo shoots almost exactly one inch higher in my gun, and i often go back and forth between the loads). that doe was shot at around 30 yards, in the corn, and the bullet passed nearly through her length wise. entered the brisket and lodged in the inside thigh.

when using lesser powder charges, such as the 80 and 85 grain loads that i'm using, its often advantageous to use a bullet with a large meplat - such as the barnes x. this promotes rapid expansion from impact, which means large wound channels.. (the meplat of a bullet is the frontal circular flat area of the bullet, that comes in contact with the game. for comparison sake - a spitzer, or pointed bullet has a very small meplat, whereas a mag tip, such as the barnes x has a large meplat.) too large of a meplat can affect accuracy, and the ballistic coefficient of such bullets are less than that of spitzer boat tail designs. however, BC shouldn't come into play too much in shots less than 200 yards. i found excellent accuracy in the barnes bullets as well.

having said that, those buffalo bullets i'm using are spitzer boat tails... ;-) so, take it for what its worth.

try to keep bullet selection in the 300 grain range - they seem to be the optimal weight for the 50 cals. not that others won't work fine, but that's where i'd start.

i'm a realist - i bought and use a muzzle loader today, because it performs nearly as well as a centerfire rifle at short to medium ranges. i have no delusions that i'm using a traditional weapon. i shoot it because i've never been able to achieve the same level of accuracy with a slug gun, which i'm restricted to using for much of firearms season. and i do like the extended season.

enjoy, and good luck.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

Anderson said:


> tenring, I also have an Omega and like you were very confused on the load and bullet even though I have shot traditional smoke poles for several years. I've tried powerbelts, tc sabots, hornady 45-250 xtp and hornaday 44-240 xtp. The biggest issue I had with the Omega vs other inlines was how tight they loaded. I couldn't get a second shot loaded without cleaning. I finally called TC to talk to a tech guy. They were super helpful. They suggested I lap the barrel and told me to get NAPA valve grounding compound. You dab a little on a patch and swab the barrel about 30 times. What a difference that made. That takes minor burrs out of the rifling and now I can load a lot easier. Oh I think it even improved accuracy. I'm currently using 130 gr with the 44-240 xtp. Hope this helps
> 
> Tim


anderson - i've found that the black MMP sabots are a few thousandths of an inch less that others, and fit nicely in the omegas as well. i've ordered the sabots seperate and put them on bullets that didn't come with them. i believe hornady has moved their line to MMP sabots. they come standard on many bullets now, including the buffalo bullet SSB's. they are excellent sabots, and yes, the sabot does matter.


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## Anderson (May 17, 2005)

rz, thanks for the input on the black MMP sabots. I've got some in my shooting box and will try that combo next time @ the range.


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## Rico (Mar 15, 2001)

Don't foget to load with consistency:
Measure your load the same way each time:
I usually over load the measurer and tap the side to settel the powder.

Use the aprox. same force to seat your sabot each time.

I do a good quick clean between every shot while at the range.

I let the barrel cool between shots.

After you find what load works best; test fire a second shot without cleaning to see if there is a major differance. (If you get that slim chance follow up shot in the field.)

All info posted above is good, if you find the combination that will give you constent results of 2" & under groups you will be fine. 

After you get that all figured out; don't forget to do more testing for cold weather performance.

Good luck and enjoy!


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## tenring (Oct 13, 2004)

A lot of good info. Thanks. I still havn't purchased the scopes and ringsand bases yet, but I did go to the range last week because a friend was going up there to sight in a rifle, so I went to sight in the fixed sights and get used to the gun. My farsighted vision could be better (need new s), so I shot at 25yds since I was using the stock fixed sights. Took a while to get the fiber optic sights sighted in because the adjusments were in such small increments it took a little while for me to figure how fine those adjustments really were. I was typically shooting two or three shots between adjustments, cleaning before every shot with TC#13 (swab once, reverse patch swab again, then a couple dry patches then load). To make a long story short, I was impressed with the accuracy of the Omega even though I was only shooting at 25yds. Most of the three shot groups had two of the holes touching and the third hole very close to the other hole(s) in a clover leaf type configuration. I was shooting off of sand bags with open sights. I was curious to see how the Omega would have shot with a scope and locked down in a gun rest vise to get my human error element out of the equation. Wanted to shoot at 50yds, but had to get going. For this range trip, I kept it very simple and used two 50grn Pyrodex Pellets and a yellow tipped 250 gr. shockwave with the sabots that come with the Shockwaves.

More info then I am sure most care to read, but I picked up a box of 100 of the 50gr Pyrodex pellets and a package of 30 or so of the 30gr Pyrodex pellets. Also picked up a container of 100gr premeasured American Pioneer Powder ffg (didn't use on this trip to the range because of time). I picked up a package of the 44-240gr XTP's (didn't use this range trip) and the 250gr yellow tipped Shockwaves. For the first time shooting it, I was going to keep it simple and just used the Pyrodex pellets and the 250 gr Shockwaves since people sound like they have had pretty good success with this combo. 

Glad I bought a T-handle (synthetic one T/C makes) for the ramrod, not sure how T/C would have expected you to seat a saboted bullet without it. I got slowed down at the range a lot becuase I had only one short cleaning jag/bullet starter and one T-handle (beginner mistake and not thinking far enough ahead). I had to take the T-handle off the ramrod to use as a bullet starter and also swap the jag between the two between shots. I bought another t-handle and jag so I didn't have this problem again. I also ordered (should get next week) an XS sights Power Rod (one piece solid anodized aluminum with built in t-handle). The stock rod works with a t-handle, but definitely could be better. 

I cleaned between shots pretty good. Couldn't believe how much powder fouling was in the bore. Couldn't imagine shooting pyrodex and not cleaning between shots, especially since the T/C 250gr shockwaves required a little elbow grease to get down. 

I am still in the early stages of messing around with the Omega. Once I get a scope, I am gonna try higher charges of Pyrodex and the 250gr shockwaves and the 240grn xtp's, than I am going to work with the loose American Pioneer Powder and the .44-240gr XTP. With 100grns of Pyrodex and 250gr bullet, recoil didn't seem bad at all. 

Thanks for the heads up on the SpinJag. I picked one up. Looks pretty nice. Heard good things about the MMP's. I'm pretty sure those are the ones that came with the 240gr xtp's I got.

Also, going to try lapping the barrel with the NAPA valve grounding compound or JB's bore polish lapping compound. I am guessing t would have been tough to load those 250gr shockwaves in a tree stand without risking a swan dive to the ground.


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