# Our changing society...



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Sorry for the bit of spam today, but I thought this article was interesting. Pretty much reinforces what many of us know is happening, and why we may have a recruitment and retention problem in hunting and fishing. Read closely between the lines...

*Demographer Sees 'Mismatch' In State's Housing Market*

*Technically speaking, Michigan has enough single-family houses to last for the next 20 years. 

That's according to data shared this afternoon by national demographer Laurie Volk at a conference put together by a legislative caucus and a group co-chaired by the Michigan Municipal League (MML) and the Michigan State Housing and Development Authority (MSDHA) 

Nearly two-thirds of those looking for a place to live are part of one-or two-person households, yet 72 percent of Michigan's housing market is detached houses built for families, she said. That means the future is in stylish units located in walkable urban areas that give Baby Boomers and those in the Millennial Generation a "sense of place." 

"It looks like a mismatch today between the market and housing," said Volk of New Jersey-based Zimmerman Volk Associates. 

This isn't simply a gimmicky "Cool Cities" theory advocated by Gov. Jennifer Granhlolm 10 years ago. Volk said data forecasted years ago is coming to pass. 

Young professionals born between 1977 and 1996, by and large, have high levels of college debt and are looking to rent in dense, urban centers with things to do and people to see. 

They are waiting until they are nearly 30 to get married. And they're not interested in hitching their wagon to home ownership in suburban neighborhoods where the only thing to walk to is the other end of a cul-de-sac, she said. 

Today's young professionals are not into hunting, fishing, NASCAR or golf. They want to go to walk to restaurants, clubs, museums, bars, coffee shops and parks. They'd prefer to walk or bike to work and would rather not own a car, let alone drive, if that's possible, she said. 

These members of the Millennial generation, the children of Baby Boomers, now make up the largest segment of the American population, Volk said, and it would be wise for communities to cater to their demands or risk losing them to other cities or other states. 

"This is where Michigan's future lies, in making this state attractive to young people," she said. 

Speaking of Baby Boomers, Volk said, many of them are looking at getting out of their detached single-family home. Baby boomers are now becoming retired empty-nesters who want to live in locations where there are things to do and places where they can volunteer, she said. 

To back up her data, Volk quoted a 2004 National Association of Realtors survey of potential homebuyers that showed 55 percent wanted to live in compact, pedestrian-oriented neighborhoods. That number swelled to 60 percent in 2013, she said. 

A downtown doesn't necessarily mean Ferndale, Royal Oak, Grand Rapids or Midtown Detroit. It can be a smaller downtown in Allegan or Dundee. 

The information was shared at a lunchtime event attended by legislators and officials from MSHDA and the Michigan Economic Development Corporation (MEDC), which has used Volk's past analyses in developing programs designed to reach targeted populations. 

Rep. Jim Townsend (D-Royal Oak) is heading a bi-partisan talent and place caucus that is designed to help figure out how cities and communities can become places where talented individuals want to live and potentially start businesses. 

After holding a couple of listening sessions with groups like the Small Business Association of Michigan, MSDHA and other regional groups, legislation is being crafted for the "next month or so," he said. 

"We are running the risk of becoming a backwater in the country and I don't think anyone in Michigan wants that," he said. 

Other members of this caucus present at today's presentation include Rep. Andy Schor (D-Lansing) and Rep. Gretchen Driskell (D-Saline). Townsend announced Reps. Wayne Schmidt (R-Traverse City), Frank Foster (R-Pellston) and Ken Yonker (R-Caledonia) as also being part of this caucus. *


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

I guess we have something to talk about during the next hunt together other than your dislike of Canada geese. :yikes:


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

PhilBernardi said:


> I guess we have something to talk about during the next hunt together other than your dislike of Canada geese. :yikes:


And millenials...This is pretty much spot on, a direct correlation to a recession in 2008 is scary enough for anyone to jump back into the housing market. I wonder how many of these Millenials are the shot callers of companies and government run operations that aided in the recession. hmmmm

College loan payments are as much as house payments, and the bachelors degree is the new high school diploma that baby boomers could relate to. Life isn't just about starting at the bottom and working your way to the top, it's about having a trade or education to get you into the bottom. 

*Young professionals born between 1977 and 1996, by and large, have high levels of college debt and are looking to rent in dense, urban centers with things to do and people to see. *


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> And millenials...This is pretty much spot on, a direct correlation to a recession in 2008 is scary enough for anyone to jump back into the housing market. I wonder how many of these Millenials are the shot callers of companies and government run operations that aided in the recession. hmmmm
> 
> College loan payments are as much as house payments, and the bachelors degree is the new high school diploma that baby boomers could relate to. Life isn't just about starting at the bottom and working your way to the top, it's about having a trade or education to get you into the bottom.
> 
> *Young professionals born between 1977 and 1996, by and large, have high levels of college debt and are looking to rent in dense, urban centers with things to do and people to see. *


Yeah I agree 100% with this. And as much as you and I have gone around on this issue, I do agree about how different it is for a young person now than back when I was starting out. Although I won't kid you...getting a solid job right out of college was not easy in my day either, we've gone to a whole other level of financial and employment burdens nowadays. 

What really disturbed me in the article (even though I already knew this) is the statement that this age group is no longer interested in hunting, fishing, etc. Man what a change! When I was starting out, the priorities on my radar were first and foremost finding a solid job in my chosen profession that would pay a decent wage, and would provide for myself and my new bride a reasonable lifestyle. Next was finding a decent home in the country, hopefully with some property where I could hunt, or at least be able to target my shotgun. Times really have changed.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Yeah I agree 100% with this. And as much as you and I have gone around on this issue, I do agree about how different it is for a young person now than back when I was starting out. Although I won't kid you...getting a solid job right out of college was not easy in my day either, we've gone to a whole other level of financial and employment burdens nowadays.
> 
> What really disturbed me in the article (even though I already knew this) is the statement that this age group is no longer interested in hunting, fishing, etc. Man what a change! When I was starting out, the priorities on my radar were first and foremost finding a solid job in my chosen profession that would pay a decent wage, and would provide for myself and my new bride a reasonable lifestyle. Next was finding a decent home in the country, hopefully with some property where I could hunt, or at least be able to target my shotgun. Times really have changed.


Who's fault is that though? Societies or parents? If and when I do have children, electronics will be on a leash and the outdoors will not be. 

I'm sure finding a job wasn't easy but now they want a degree and 7 years of experience and professional certs. If I were a college grad, an internship is the only way to go.


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## bender (Nov 10, 2005)

SBE II said:


> ..College loan payments are *more than* house payments..


edited to fit my wife and i's situation. its a helluva burden, but fortunately we are working through it. i can't imagine all the cool stuff i could have without that payment. :lol:

was just telling my wife last night while cleaning my equipment from the weekend that i hope our kids show interest, and if so, demonstrate responsibility when it comes to hunting/shooting sports. i think its way more nurture than nature though.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

PhilBernardi said:


> I guess we have something to talk about during the next hunt together other than your dislike of Canada geese. :yikes:


Nah this is really old news to most. In fact, I was an assigned member of the team Granholm put together to further her "Cool Cities" initiative, and while at the time it seemed like a bit of fluff, in hindsight now it's clear that the research they were going by was spot on. I remember being torn back then on that team with the idea that in order to improve the state, I actually had to promote encouraging young people to abandon the concepts of being outdoors, hunting and fishing, for a more urban lifestyle. We had a team that traveled all over the state, trying to help cities large and small change their thought processes to embrace these concepts. Maybe knowing all of this back almost a decade ago is why I've often been pessimistic on this site about the future of hunting and fishing in Michigan :sad:


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

This strikes home hard. I am one of those described Almost 30 unmarried. With multiple college degrees and a mountain of debt. I needed those degrees just to get my foot in the door at the bottom. This is going to be the 1st generation for America where your parents made more money than you. The days of walking out of high school into a middle or middle-upper manufacturing job/class are over. Now you need a mountain of student loans just to get a lower middle-class job. My undergrad final costs was a touch under 130,000, and that doesn't include my associate degree or books. I am very proud of my education, but was it worth what I paid, probably not! At least I can use my degree for a job, I see so many people take huge student loans and study a degree/field that they can NEVER get a job for. College was the route to success in previous generation because it set you apart from the crowd. It showed that you are willing to put in the work for the job, and that you have the ability to learn. Now college rarely fail people who should be weeded out because they don't want to lose their tuition. Everyone has a degree so it doesn't set you apart from anyone, it just starts you off in life with huge debt. College is not for everyone, even though high schools still teach it as the only progression for a successful life. As for the housing aspect, they are dead on. Most young professionals don't have the need for, or have the money to afford a house in the suburbs. Commuting to urban areas where there are actually jobs is becoming a much larger cost. I remember my dad telling me there were guys that drive 2 1/2 hours each way to work at a GM plant. That was possible back then with low gas prices and high paying jobs, that availability is gone now. People need to live closer to larger population centers. As for young people not being involved in outdoors, I think that ratio is about the same as the previous generation.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> Who's fault is that though? Societies or parents? If and when I do have children, electronics will be on a leash and the outdoors will not be....


I have my opinions, as we all do, but I don't have the answer. I don't have kids, but I would like to believe if I had, they would be different than most nowadays. Sadly, I believe I probably would've lost that battle.


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## M.Schmitz87 (Mar 12, 2013)

Hmmm. My wife and i are born in 87. we got married last year, having a 7 month old son together and are currently looking for a house to buy. 

We are looking for a small house in the country. We are interested in fishing, hunting, shooting, beeing outside. 

Are we the weirdos of our generation?


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

M.Schmitz87 said:


> Hmmm. My wife and i are born in 87. we got married last year, having a 7 month old son together and are currently looking for a house to buy.
> 
> We are looking for a small house in the country. We are interested in fishing, hunting, shooting, beeing outside.
> 
> Are we the weirdos of our generation?


No just outliars...nothing wrong with what you're doing, just not the common thing. Think about this, I'm 32 and most of the people my age they were born when their parents were 18-22, how often do you see that happening?


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

SBE II said:


> Who's fault is that though? Societies or parents? If and when I do have children, electronics will be on a leash and the outdoors will not be.
> 
> I'm sure finding a job wasn't easy but now they want a degree and 7 years of experience and professional certs. If I were a college grad, an internship is the only way to go.


 
Some internships they want you to work for FREE or minimum wage (for years mind you), and that doesn't even guarantee you a position when you are done. The government is actually trying to end unpaid internships because it is a form of slavery. I feel the biggest problem is with the corporations, they want the best people with no risk to them at all. They want candidates with tons of experience and then not pay them for that experience. There were plenty of qualified white collars jobs completed by people without degrees, its just that somebody gave them a chance to succeed. Companies do not want to take that risk anymore. Personally I think an on the job apprenticeship should be the best way for most careers.


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

What this means for those of us who hunt & fish - and especially for our kids who hunt & fish - is that we must present ourselves as responsible, knowledgeable people to the rapidly growing majority who do NOT hunt and fish. Otherwise we risk becoming irrelevant and having our pastimes voted out of existence by people who don't really care one way or another, but have been marketed to more successfully by our anti-hunting opponents. Make no mistake that the antis read this same information and rub their hands with glee thinking it's just a matter of time until they have critical mass in their favor. 

The generations who regularly hunted or fished as recreation or even to put food on the table are rapidly aging out or dying out - and this can be seen in license sales data. Additionally, the number of generations the average American has to go back to get to the farm or a rural lifestyle is also increasing dramatically. Recreation is now obviously trending more toward technology than outdoor activities. People, on average, just simply DO NOT have the connection to nature that they used to. What this means is that we ABSOLUTELY have to introduce more people (and not just kids) to hunting and fishing - regardless of how we feel about "overcrowding" in the marsh or on the lake. But perhaps even more critically we have to make sure that those who do not hunt & fish and who have no desire to do so, DO NOT think negatively about those of us who do. When it comes right down to it, those are the folks we REALLY are going to need when (not IF) hunting/fishing/trapping proposals are placed on the ballot.

Bottom Line? Whatever YOU do, make sure you do NOT do anything to turn the non-hunters you know into anti-hunters. Be responsible, and take every opportunity to explain to non-hunters how responsible hunting is important to conservation, and why THAT MATTERS! Additionally, you have to support ALL hunting, fishing and trapping, regardless of whether or not you participate in a particular activity or use a particular device (thinking crossbow controversy here). If we do not hang together, we will certainly all hang separately!


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

bender said:


> edited to fit my wife and i's situation. its a helluva burden, but fortunately we are working through it. i can't imagine all the cool stuff i could have without that payment. :lol:
> 
> was just telling my wife last night while cleaning my equipment from the weekend that i hope our kids show interest, and if so, demonstrate responsibility when it comes to hunting/shooting sports. i think its way more nurture than nature though.


I admit I slowed down through high school and college because I played sports. But my dad always made me get out of bed to go out with him a few times a year...Well now this is my sport, they will come around..Most hit a lull..A lot of college kids use the time to their advantage now, scheduling classes like second shifters lol


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## bender (Nov 10, 2005)

Shlwego said:


> What this means for those of us who hunt & fish - and especially for our kids who hunt & fish - is that we must present ourselves as responsible, knowledgeable people to the rapidly growing majority who do NOT hunt and fish. Otherwise we risk becoming irrelevant and having our pastimes voted out of existence by people who don't really care one way or another, but have been marketed to more successfully by our anti-hunting opponents. Make no mistake that the antis read this same information and rub their hands with glee thinking it's just a matter of time until they have critical mass in their favor.
> 
> The generations who regularly hunted or fished as recreation or even to put food on the table are rapidly aging out or dying out - and this can be seen in license sales data. Additionally, the number of generations the average American has to go back to get to the farm or a rural lifestyle is also increasing dramatically. Recreation is now obviously trending more toward technology than outdoor activities. People, on average, just simply DO NOT have the connection to natures that they used to. What this means is that we ABSOLUTELY have to introduce more people (and not just kids) to hunting and fishing - regardless of how we feel about "overcrowding" in the marsh or on the lake. But perhaps even more critically we have to make sure that those who do not hunt & fish and who have no desire to do so, DO NOT think negatively about those of us who do. When it comes right down to it, those are the folks we REALLY are going to need when (not IF) hunting/fishing/trapping proposals are placed on the ballot.
> 
> Bottom Line? Whatever YOU do, make sure you do NOT do anything to turn the non-hunters you know into anti-hunters. Be responsible, and take every opportunity to explain to non-hunters how responsible hunting is important to conservation, and why THAT MATTERS! Additionally, you have to support ALL hunting, fishing and trapping, regardless of whether or not you participate or not in a particular activity or use a particular device (thinking crossbow controversy here). If we do not hang together, we will certainly all hang separately!


nailed it.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Matthuntsall said:


> Some internships they want you to work for FREE or minimum wage (for years mind you), and that doesn't even guarantee you a position when you are done. The government is actually trying to end unpaid internships because it is a form of slavery. I feel the biggest problem is with the corporations, they want the best people with no risk to them at all. They want candidates with tons of experience and then not pay them for that experience. There were plenty of qualified white collars jobs completed by people without degrees, its just that somebody gave them a chance to succeed. Companies do not want to take that risk anymore. Personally I think an on the job apprenticeship should be the best way for most careers.


Experience is priceless..Sometimes you have to be willing to take two steps backward to take one step forward. Remember though, students don't have to take those internships, its an option, so is it slavery if it's voluntary?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Matthuntsall said:


> ...As for young people not being involved in outdoors, I think that ratio is about the same as the previous generation.


This is the only part I guess I take exception to in what you said. I've seen a DRASTIC change in attitudes among the younger generations, and their interests. I grew up in a larger urban area of Michigan, and back then, 2/3rds of my classmates hunted and/or fished. What is the percentage now with youngsters...or even those say 35 and under? All I have to do is look around when at the managed areas for a draw. Generally (and I know I'm painting a very broad stroke here), you can pick them out simply by the gear they are wearing. "They" are wearing Under Armor and all the other "logo'ed" gear, vs. us in the older crowd, who are sometimes still wearing our old "retro" camo pattern clothing with no "designer" logos on them. AND BEFORE ANYONE JUMPS ME ON THAT STATEMENT, it's not their fault...it's just what the marketers have taught them to believe they need...at an extremely inflated cost (at least to those of us who don't buy into it). So there is a big difference in the generations.


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## bender (Nov 10, 2005)

SBE II said:


> I admit I slowed down through high school and college because I played sports. But my dad always made me get out of bed to go out with him a few times a year...Well now this is my sport, they will come around..Most hit a lull..A lot of college kids use the time to their advantage now, scheduling classes like second shifters lol


i was a basketball player in high school (winter), so my fall schedule facilitated alot of time in the bow stand. i didn't start duck hunting until i got to college, and having haymarsh, martiny, and my in-laws cottage on the river in my backyard while there, i did exactly what you described (that being said, big rapids didn't exactly have a booming urban scene lol).


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shlwego said:


> What this means for those of us who hunt & fish - and especially for our kids who hunt & fish - is that we must present ourselves as responsible, knowledgeable people to the rapidly growing majority who do NOT hunt and fish. Otherwise we risk becoming irrelevant and having our pastimes voted out of existence by people who don't really care one way or another, but have been marketed to more successfully by our anti-hunting opponents. Make no mistake that the antis read this same information and rub their hands with glee thinking it's just a matter of time until they have critical mass in their favor.
> 
> The generations who regularly hunted or fished as recreation or even to put food on the table are rapidly aging out or dying out - and this can be seen in license sales data. Additionally, the number of generations the average American has to go back to get to the farm or a rural lifestyle is also increasing dramatically. Recreation is now obviously trending more toward technology than outdoor activities. People, on average, just simply DO NOT have the connection to nature that they used to. What this means is that we ABSOLUTELY have to introduce more people (and not just kids) to hunting and fishing - regardless of how we feel about "overcrowding" in the marsh or on the lake. But perhaps even more critically we have to make sure that those who do not hunt & fish and who have no desire to do so, DO NOT think negatively about those of us who do. When it comes right down to it, those are the folks we REALLY are going to need when (not IF) hunting/fishing/trapping proposals are placed on the ballot.
> 
> Bottom Line? Whatever YOU do, make sure you do NOT do anything to turn the non-hunters you know into anti-hunters. Be responsible, and take every opportunity to explain to non-hunters how responsible hunting is important to conservation, and why THAT MATTERS! Additionally, you have to support ALL hunting, fishing and trapping, regardless of whether or not you participate in a particular activity or use a particular device (thinking crossbow controversy here). If we do not hang together, we will certainly all hang separately!


yep...exactly! And although I'm often called a perpetual optimist, this is exactly the reason why I'm not optimistic about the future of hunting and fishing. Sorry...just way to practical and realistic in my thinking to believe we can change this growing tide. When more people in this day and age LOOK FORWARD to standing in line at Best Buy on black friday, than those who look forward to opening day of any given hunting or fishing season, I can't help but feel (sadly) that we've already lost this war.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

bender said:


> ...big rapids didn't exactly have a booming urban scene lol).


oh I beg to differ...I didn't go to Ferris, but had many friends who did, and that irish pub downtown (can't remember the name) has a warm place in my heart. Spent many an hour...and many a dollar :yikes: there.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Matthuntsall said:


> Well then, why go to school then? Just take an internship for 4 years in a job, and then you'll have the experience. The thing is.. they want us to pay for school and work for free, when the other generations did not have to do that. What I am saying is that you are postponing a persons income even longer. SO they graduate from college with debt (I thin around 40-60,000) is about the norm now. Then they cant even start paying the loans off, they have to work for nothing , or next to nothing (all the time that loan interest is adding up). So after a few years then they should earn money? So that puts a person at about 24-26 before they even START making money. Takes a minimum of 10 years to pay off the loans (student government loans are 5.5-7% which are double what a home loan is). So then a person has to be in their mid 30's before they can even think of buying a home? Did you work an internship for years without being paid? Would you, I doubt it. Plus with the tons of graduates coming out every year, companies have their pick out of them, and can offer them lower starting salaries than they used to because people need to take what jobs they can.


Sorry I didn't read really beyond your first sentence because I know you're an educated individual, but what internship can you obtain if you're not pursuing or have completed your education? Unless we're discussing vocational positions but still typically require a formal passing of a test. 

You have now defined why education has become competative. It's all about job assistance. What I can tell you is that those students obtaining an internship have a better rate of being hired full time than those that don't...You need to start looking at an internship as real world experience and not slavery..Internships are a gateway just like education is..You can't get a PMP cert without EXPERIENCE. You cant become a CFA without EXPERIENCE.


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## here2 (Apr 28, 2008)

I'm not living in the country but definitely different to the trend . Born long time ago in 1985 and took machine shop for 3 years of HS , worked co-op in senior year at sheet metal shop. Graduated worked there 10 years and luckily got a job in the utility industry . I think to many kids went and got that500k a year degree with no restraints on how much it was gonna cost and now that market is flooded with a bunch of 25 yo that have more debt than I owe on my house. 

I'm no expert but kids need to realize there are still a bunch of labor jobs that pay very well and that dirt on your hands won't kill you, but that's jmo

Tony


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

here2 said:


> I'm not living in the country but definitely different to the trend . Born long time ago in 1985 and took machine shop for 3 years of HS , worked co-op in senior year at sheet metal shop. Graduated worked there 10 years and luckily got a job in the utility industry . I think to many kids went and got that500k a year degree with no restraints on how much it was gonna cost and now that market is flooded with a bunch of 25 yo that have more debt than I owe on my house.
> 
> I'm no expert but kids need to realize there are still a bunch of labor jobs that pay very well and that dirt on your hands won't kill you, but that's jmo
> 
> ...



Who can afford to buy a house today on minimum wage? Those labor jobs push us back to the OP, still going to rent..


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

SBE II said:


> . Doctors can't get licensed until they do all their residencies..


However, Doctor's get payed while they are doing their residencies.


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

SBE II said:


> Sorry I didn't read really beyond your first sentence because I know you're an educated individual, but what internship can you obtain if you're not pursuing or have completed your education? Unless we're discussing vocational positions but still typically require a formal passing of a test.
> 
> You have now defined why education has become competative. It's all about job assistance. What I can tell you is that those students obtaining an internship have a better rate of being hired full time than those that don't...You need to start looking at an internship as real world experience and not slavery..Internships are a gateway just like education is..You can't get a PMP cert without EXPERIENCE. You cant become a CFA without EXPERIENCE.


What I am saying is the requirements keep going up and up. The previous generation needed only a degree. Now you need a degree and experience. Well that experience has to be taken in an internship. So you are pushing your life back even more time from the point of "starting" your career. When does it end? The employers are not paying any more for people who completed internships, it is just another way to justify working someone more while paying them less. I know grad students who intern at under 10 bucks an hour because that's all they can get. Are they not worth more than the shift manager at McDonalds? If I had to do it all over again, I would do it the same way, not because I want to, but because that was my only option.


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

bender said:


> http://youtu.be/iXn6sM4uX7c


You can thank the Baby Boomers for that. They "coddled" this generation into making many of them spineless people who can't do anything for themselves. They think helping their child fill out a job application is helping their son/ or daughter get a job. Well it is not helping them when they cannot do it for themselves. What happens when they get to work, are the parents going to do the work for them? Parents want to keep their kids from making any mistakes, well that's part of life, and learning. The kids who ate 35 marbles in class SHOULDNT be reproducing.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Matthuntsall said:


> What I am saying is the requirements keep going up and up. The previous generation needed only a degree. Now you need a degree and experience. Well that experience has to be taken in an internship. So you are pushing your life back even more time from the point of "starting" your career. When does it end? The employers are not paying any more for people who completed internships, it is just another way to justify working someone more while paying them less. I know grad students who intern at under 10 bucks an hour because that's all they can get. Are they not worth more than the shift manager at McDonalds? If I had to do it all over again, I would do it the same way, not because I want to, but because that was my only option.


But how are you pushing back if your internship is during your senior year? And if what you're saying experience plus degree...then you NEED the experience from the internship. Is it an employers market, heck yes there is..due maybe to the fact of the baby boomers holding down the jobs? Good question..

If you know a GRAD student making 10 bucks an hour than thats their fault. Face it looking for a full time job is a full time job, JD probably wants to hear me say this and he will. Maybe the expectation of these grads is that a job is going to come to them instead of them going to get it..People I know with degrees that don't have decent paying jobs is because they don't apply themselves...You have to be willing to relocate and keep your options open..


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> ...If you know a GRAD student making 10 bucks an hour than thats their fault. Face it looking for a full time job is a full time job, JD probably wants to hear me say this and he will. Maybe the expectation of these grads is that a job is going to come to them instead of them going to get it..People I know with degrees that don't have decent paying jobs is because they don't apply themselves...You have to be willing to relocate and keep your options open..


it was partially true back when I was graduating college as I said. Probably just more so now because yes, *generally* baby-boomer parents have coddled their kids more than ever.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> Sorry but Statistics prove you wrong for the most part...My dad bucked the system and so did my mom, and my dad will be the first to say that in his position today they would require a degree....


Tell ya the most blatant example I've seen where this is true. Back a decade or so when GM announced they were going to build the new Delta Township plant here outside of Lansing, everyone got all giddy thinking this would be a boom for those displaced/unemployed auto workers in Michigan. GM got to the point of requesting applicants for these new factory jobs, and lo and behold, the minimum requirements TO APPLY included a bachelor's degree...for a friggin' car assembly plant job. :yikes:


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## JBooth (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm one of your stereotyped young people. I love to hunt and fish. Wife and I have 5 degrees between us and 0 debt. We picked fields in demand and are paid well. My Grad school was paid for by funding that I submitted grants for and did presentations to get. We live downtown because it saves
Me an hour a day and gas costs. Walk to work. I'd live in the country if it made sense to but right now it doesn't. What makes the least sense to people like me is suburbs. I can live next to everything
Downtown or next to nothing in the country.
Why would I pick a suburb where I live
Next to nothing and still have to travel.


There plenty of ways to make an education happen without going
Broke. I think if I could redo it I would go to trade school.
That's going to be where it's at in the
Next few decades.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

here2 said:


> ...Born long time ago in 1985


"long time ago"? Now that's funny right there Tony, you young whippersnapper you!!! :lol:



here2 said:


> ...I'm no expert but kids need to realize there are still a bunch of labor jobs that pay very well and that dirt on your hands won't kill you, but that's jmo..


See my post above where I describe the hiring process for the GM plant in Delta Township. Yes there are exceptions to every rule, but overall I'll disagree with you. As SBE II pointed out, your term of "pay very well" needs to be defined as able to pay rent and other expenses, *AND* put money aside for retirement


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

SBE II said:


> But how are you pushing back if your internship is during your senior year? And if what you're saying experience plus degree...then you NEED the experience from the internship. Is it an employers market, heck yes there is..due maybe to the fact of the baby boomers holding down the jobs? Good question..
> 
> If you know a GRAD student making 10 bucks an hour than thats their fault. Face it looking for a full time job is a full time job, JD probably wants to hear me say this and he will. Maybe the expectation of these grads is that a job is going to come to them instead of them going to get it..People I know with degrees that don't have decent paying jobs is because they don't apply themselves...You have to be willing to relocate and keep your options open..


 
You are assuming there are jobs out there for every graduate, that is INCORRECT. I am in the field of ar****ecture. According to the department of Labor there are a TOTAL of 23 job openings in ar****ecture per given year in Michigan. My school (LTU) graduates 400 students every spring and fall. This does not include all the U of M grads, Detroit Mercy grads, and Andrews University grads. The people working for 10 bucks an hour and not lazy or dumb, there are just no available positions for them to take. I remember the job fairs at school. You had to wait 2 hours just to talk to a company and they weren't even hiring. There were over 30 companies there, and only 2 had open positions. I actually went against some of the adjunct professors and graduate student for those jobs. The construction field is bouncing back and more people are hiring now though. You are under the incorrect assumption that because you graduated there is a open position. I have a job, a good job, but I am the exception, not the rule. Its just a different job market out there. As for relocation, I apply to jobs in Chicago all the time, but they do not want to risk hiring a person that has to move from out of town let alone out of state. That goes back to my point where employers want no risks at all in their hiring. My company is hiring and has been for a while but they cannot fill the positions because they do not want to hire people from out of town. The last guy we hired commutes 90 min each way and they didn't even want to hire him, even though he has 10 years experience and a graduate degree.


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

GM got to the point of requesting applicants for these new factory jobs, and lo and behold, the minimum requirements TO APPLY included a bachelor's degree...for a friggin' car assembly plant job. :yikes:[/QUOTE]


THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY???? No need for this, it makes the company feel better to hire "educated" people. But it makes no difference, it is not needed for the job. My dad works at GM he used to tell me stories of "shoprats" and would work ridiculous hours, and make 100,000 a year, and they couldn't read or write. It's all marketing of the education system. Add dollars in when they aren't really benefiting anyone but the university stock holders.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

JBooth said:


> I'm one of your stereotyped young people. I love to hunt and fish. Wife and I have 5 degrees between us and 0 debt. We picked fields in demand and are paid well. My Grad school was paid for by funding that I submitted grants for and did presentations to get. We live downtown because it saves
> Me an hour a day and gas costs. Walk to work. I'd live in the country if it made sense to but right now it doesn't. What makes the least sense to people like me is suburbs. I can live next to everything
> Downtown or next to nothing in the country.
> Why would I pick a suburb where I live
> Next to nothing and still have to travel.....


But with all due respect, when you say "live next to everything downtown", to me that's not "everything". I can honestly tell you I'd feel like I were in prison living in a downtown...any downtown. I can walk out my back door and pattern my shotgun, target my rifle, or for that matter, deer hunt (which I did last night). I can park my boat in front off my driveway without neighbors complaining, or deed restrictions prohibiting that. I can take my dog out at night for his final pee break before bed, and I can take a pee with him :yikes: Those were the priorities to me when we were choosing a place to live. So to me, I have "everything" at my doorstep. You obviously have different priorities, and you're certainly allowed to have them. Yes you hunt. But your priorities are all of those things that to you make up "everything". So you've just circled us completely back around to my original post, and the fact that hunting, fishing, etc. are not high on the priority list of the younger generations.


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

JBooth said:


> I'm one of your stereotyped young people. I love to hunt and fish. Wife and I have 5 degrees between us and 0 debt. We picked fields in demand and are paid well. My Grad school was paid for by funding that I submitted grants for and did presentations to get. We live downtown because it saves
> Me an hour a day and gas costs. Walk to work. I'd live in the country if it made sense to but right now it doesn't. What makes the least sense to people like me is suburbs. I can live next to everything
> Downtown or next to nothing in the country.
> Why would I pick a suburb where I live
> ...


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Matthuntsall said:


> ...THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY???? No need for this, it makes the company feel better to hire "educated" people. But it makes no difference, it is not needed for the job....


I don't want to take this discussion down an entirely different path, but as I said before, I've been on the hiring end for years, and through filling many vacancies, and I can tell you unequivocally, I have had much better success with those who have at least some college coursework. And if I have a choice between someone without a bachelors and someone with one, I will take the one with a degree. Have there been exceptions to that over the years? Sure there have. Once in a while I've had college grads, or graduate degreed individuals who flop. But overall, that has been pretty much the case in my experience.


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## ih772 (Jan 28, 2003)

just ducky said:


> Tell ya the most blatant example I've seen where this is true. Back a decade or so when GM announced they were going to build the new Delta Township plant here outside of Lansing, everyone got all giddy thinking this would be a boom for those displaced/unemployed auto workers in Michigan. GM got to the point of requesting applicants for these new factory jobs, and lo and behold, the minimum requirements TO APPLY included a bachelor's degree...for a friggin' car assembly plant job. :yikes:


I can guarantee that 99% of the people working on the line at LDT do not have a bachelors degree.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Tell ya the most blatant example I've seen where this is true. Back a decade or so when GM announced they were going to build the new Delta Township plant here outside of Lansing, everyone got all giddy thinking this would be a boom for those displaced/unemployed auto workers in Michigan. GM got to the point of requesting applicants for these new factory jobs, and lo and behold, the minimum requirements TO APPLY included a bachelor's degree...for a friggin' car assembly plant job. :yikes:


Must have been different at their sister plants like American Axle, those people were making megga bucks living high on the hog, people wonder why cars cost so much. You have people not working saturday but going in Sunday to make double time and sleep..


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

ih772 said:


> I can guarantee that 99% of the people working on the line at LDT do not have a bachelors degree.


I wouldn't bet against that...But I would bet that 99% of those new hires working on the line aren't making what people did throughout the 80's and 90's...


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

just ducky said:


> Although I won't kid you...getting a solid job right out of college was not easy in my day either, we've gone to a whole other level of financial and employment burdens nowadays.


I believe there are quite a few jobs, the issue is recent grads having an unrealistic expectation of pay and position. My wife just hired a recent college grad. The grad was offered 50k with the response being they had to think about it because they were hoping to make more Where I work, we hire all the time. I've offered to help get friends on unemployment a job for 30k or so with lot's of opportunity to move up and make a lot more. Every one preferred to milk their unemployment and not work.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

SBE II said:


> Well yea...welfare rats everywhere..But regarding oil fields who really wants to live in a man camp in NODAK and work 12-15 hour days? Sorry thats not for me, but yes it can be done. I choose to work smarter not harder..So I can hunt lol


I certainly don't work that hard and definitely do not live in a man camp. I do have to work 21 days on 21 days off, which can be good or bad depending on the season and the weather!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> Well yea...welfare rats everywhere..But regarding oil fields who really wants to live in a man camp in NODAK and work 12-15 hour days? Sorry thats not for me, but yes it can be done. I choose to work smarter not harder..So I can hunt lol


when I was getting out of high school, and my friends and I were choosing our paths in life, one of our friends, who was definitely smart enough to get a bachelors, chose construction, and at the time, Houston was where it was at. He picked up and left, and was making a bundle of money there....for about 5 years. Then it dried up, he ended up back in Michigan, barely making ends meet, and he's struggled for 30 years. All indications from the so-called national experts is that the NODAK oil bubble will eventually burst, leaving a ton of recently built housing and infrastructure, with no one there to occupy it. That's a sad reality of this fracking boom we're in. Another friend chose trucking out of high school, and again made a bundle of money, until he got a bit older, and decided the life of being on the road that much wasn't worth the money. He ended up coming home also, going to school to get trained as a paramedic/EMT, and he's doing well in that field.

It's true that not everyone is made to go to college. But the statistics also show that college graduates earn a lot more over their lifetimes than non-college graduates. We all make choices and have to live with them.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

The oil field on land is definitely very volatile. It is far more affected by the cost of oil. I work offshore though where it is much more stable. Companies are lining up to drill here in the gulf. We are finally producing more oil per day then we are importing. That is a huge milestone.


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## jonesy16 (Sep 19, 2011)

PhilBernardi said:


> I guess we have something to talk about during the next hunt together other than your dislike of Canada geese. :yikes:


Hehehe

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

The cool cities thing Granholm suggested is probably on the money...for now, but long term, I'm not sure it's viable. Eventually these y generation folks are going to want space. I might be wrong, but history tells us differently. Our former agrarian economy saw people moving to the cities as well. These folks were/are happy there. Then there was the move to suburbia for a house with 3 bedrooms, basement, and a garage. From there we've morphed into McMansions which no one REALLY needs, but more of a status thing. Now the new generation is seeing the excess that was the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's and doesn't want or need any of that debt or extravagance.

As far as careers are concerned, people need to seriously evaluate the field they want to go into because times demand it. Gone are the years getting a liberal arts degree and going into whatever sounds good. You almost have to target what's going to be in demand 4 years later or suffer an underpaying entry level position in something that's not exactly what you thought you were going to do. A wise man, who really couldn't read because he jumped out of the window in the second grade once said, "the world needs ditch diggers too". That man was my grandfather. He started out with a used dump truck and a really used truck crane. 25 years later he was moving millions of yards of dirt each year with his fleet of earth moving equipment. Jess sayin'. 

Gone is the familial connection to our land. You don't see the generations hunting together as much anymore. Demands on time are greater or have higher priority. People don't spend nearly as much time in deer camp anymore. My own deer camp usually lasts for 3 days total. The youngest guy is 42. We used to take a week off bookended by weekends and then we'd try to get out Thanksgiving weekend too. The guys I duck hunt with can usually get out for the NLP and SLP openers here in MI and maybe a week in NoDak every other year. After that it's catch as catch can for the rest of the season. Couple that with the competition for quality hunting areas, the competition for trophy animals seen on TV, and the over-the-top marketing that has spawned the black hoodie logo crowd and our sport is in serious jeopardy.

I'm trying the best I can with my own son. We limit the time with video games, we hunt, we fish, we camp. But it's hard; competing with soccer, baseball, football,...fill in the blank. I think he'll have an appreciation of the outdoors and hopefully it will be something we can do together for years to come.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TNL said:


> ...As far as careers are concerned, people need to seriously evaluate the field they want to go into because times demand it. Gone are the years getting a liberal arts degree and going into whatever sounds good. You almost have to target what's going to be in demand 4 years later or suffer an underpaying entry level position in something that's not exactly what you thought you were going to do....


Agree. But I'll say it again...the situation isn't all that different than back when I was in college. Case in point...my brother who is four years older than me, and like me loves everything about the outdoors, and was a 4.0 student and could've majored in most anything, went with his heart in college and majored in fisheries and wildlife, EVEN THOUGH he was told by everyone that the job market in the early 80's was tough. He graduated, spent 4 years working for the Indiana DNR because Michigan DNR wasn't hiring, and although he loved the work, after those 4 years he was making a very low wage, working alongside people with Masters' or PhD's, and he saw that the future was a low income for years and years. So he abandoned that dream and went in a different direction, which has not paid off extremely well either. In retrospect, he should've used his head, not his heart, and chosen a field that would've offerred more opportunities. 

So I don't think it's all that different with today's kids...going with their hearts and not their heads.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Agree. But I'll say it again...the situation isn't all that different than back when I was in college. Case in point...my brother who is four years older than me, and like me loves everything about the outdoors, and was a 4.0 student and could've majored in most anything, went with his heart in college and majored in fisheries and wildlife, EVEN THOUGH he was told by everyone that the job market in the early 80's was tough. He graduated, spent 4 years working for the Indiana DNR because Michigan DNR wasn't hiring, and although he loved the work, after those 4 years he was making a very low wage, working alongside people with Masters' or PhD's, and he saw that the future was a low income for years and years. So he abandoned that dream and went in a different direction, which has not paid off extremely well either. In retrospect, he should've used his head, not his heart, and chosen a field that would've offerred more opportunities.
> 
> So I don't think it's all that different with today's kids...going with their hearts and not their heads.



This is my job on a daily basis, it's not so much using their hearts as using their heads in making the right decision. They don't know the market enough at 18-21 to know what they should do, they're brought up to think (and this isn't a bad thing) do what you want to do and get the education. The issue is people are going out and getting the same degree as the next person in line, this does nothing for differentiation. If I were to go back for a Masters I surely wouldn't get an MBA, why? because they're a dime a dozen and capstone classes to an undergrad.

With this said, employers are now looking beyond degrees and wanting professional certifications, so this means not only do they need a degree to land an entry level experience but also years of experience. Which draws us back to the internship...There's no question in order to get a good paying job you need a degree or some sort of skill trade, laboring just isn't going to cut it anymore...This is IF you want to make a decent leaving.

For skill trade it still goes to an education, anyone wanting to get into a union will first have to test in, then while they're logging their work hours they will be attending community colleges to get college level credit. Most come out with an associates...

JD you were spot on indicating persons with a degree tend to make more money in a lifetime, its actually 1 million dollars more. I've been trying to say this the entire thread but it seems we can't get over that hump.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

4 years of military service and you get 4 years of college of your choice. 100% death tax. Make and earn your own money. Anybody can be somebody no excuses. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> ...JD you were spot on indicating persons with a degree tend to make more money in a lifetime, its actually 1 million dollars more. I've been trying to say this the entire thread but it seems we can't get over that hump.


you'll never convince some people because there are exceptions to every rule...in this case, someone with no formal education beyond HS who made a good living. Sure there are those cases. But as you and I know, the BIG PICTURE is that is not the case.


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

> This is something that you're very wrong about. There's actually college scorecards and colleges are very competative, one of the main questions I get is about job placement and job assistance offerings. School's have to publicize their retention rates. It's called a HOSAD "How are students are doing." This means average salaries and time students get to employment and also loan default rates.


Ha....tell me I'm wrong. I hire people all the time, and I can't tell you the last time I gave two seconds of thought over "where" someone went to college. Get the degree, perform well while doing it, and get some real world experience under your belt that shows you aren't just a person who can memorize facts, and you are one up on the rest. 

The student needs to do their homework before applying to a school. Most four year schools offer the same programs with the same general curriculum. If a kid picks "world history studies" as his major, odds are he's going to have a helluva time getting a job making more than the guy at Burger King when he gets out of school. 

Bottom line, it all comes down to the individual and the choices he/she makes from beginning to end. It doesn't matter one damn bit where the kid went to school...what matters is what is between his ears, what background is on his resume, and what comes out of his mouth in the interview. 

I don't need to push my kids towards college. This is the problem that thousands upon thousands of parents are making every year. A lot of these kids are NOT college material. Yet...their parents tell/make them go, and what happens? We get yet another 20 year old thrown into society that A. doesn't have the background education B. wasted thousands of dollars of somebody's money and C. is in the same position he was when the day after he graduated high school. Those same kids would have been better off A. going to trade school or B. going into the military. Period. 

Like I said earlier, I've told my kids that they do not have to go to college, but I do expect them to have a career path. There are paths to success that do not include college. People need to understand that fact. Having said that, the path without a degree is likely to be significantly more difficult, but can be equally as rewarding if they put in the time and effort. 

Funny you mention how competitive college has become. Have you taken the time to notice how EASY college has become? Bwwahahaa...it is a crying shame that some of these folks can earn accelerated degrees without ever having set foot on a campus. But I digress....because as an educator, I have seen the enemy, and it is most certainly "online education." 

The level of student that walks into my classroom every week is but a shell of what used to walk through that door some twenty years ago. I cannot teach at the same level as I did in the beginning. If I did, I would flunk 75% of them. If I flunked 75% of them, I would lose my job. The average student of today has been taught to learn for a particular test, and 99% of them couldn't think their way out of a dark room with a flashlight in one hand and the batteries for it in the other. 

The reason the Bachelor's degree of today has become the equivalent of the high school diploma in years past is simply because the average 4-year degree is in itself, a shell of what it used to be. 

Ah well...keep telling those C-level kids who don't come to school half the time that "they too shall succeed once they get their degree.." I do my best to try to weed out those that do not belong, and I'll be damned if I pass anyone on into the nursing program at my school who can't read, write, or understand simple logic who could potentially be looking at me in the ER for whatever reason. 

It's ok if you don't go to college. Millions of Americans have lived prosperous, happy lives without a college degree through the course of time, and this will not change going into the future. There is always going to be a need for the trades. Always. Trades jobs pay well. Very well. Nothing wrong with that in the least bit.


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

We can argue the semantics of degree vs no degree, high income vs low income, choosing to live in cities vs suburbs vs rural all day long, and whether and how it matters or not. It's an interesting discussion, but not really relevant to me - I am where I am, and I raise my kids to know who they are and where they're headed. Responsibility for where you end up lies in the mirror. Blaming anything else - including a lack of education - is missing the mark. You can be wealthy with no degrees and poor with a PhD or vice versa. Success is 90% perspiration and 10% luck.

But what the original article points out fairly clearly is that the OVERALL demographics are continuing to shift. And that that shift is away from hunting and fishing. If we ever face the prospect of another Great Depression, not only will people (in general) not know how to hunt for food, they may be legally prevented from doing so. This might seem like an impossibility - and probably IS during my lifetime - but during my kids lifetimes? Seems quite probable......


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shlwego said:


> ...But what the original article points out fairly clearly is that the OVERALL demographics are continuing to shift. And that that shift is away from hunting and fishing...


Thanks for getting us back on track


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

Agree....thanks for the re-direct. 

My kids hunt and fish, and they love every second of it.


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## Ann Arbor Hokie (Oct 6, 2011)

I agree with some of the opinions expressed and also strongly disagree with others. Being a member of the described generation, I can tell you I am an outlier (24 and working towards a Ph.D. at michigan) and there are less and less young people entering the sport. If I do reach retirement age, I'll guarantee I have less options for fishing buddies than current retired members have.

One thing i want to point out is the effort to involve hunters/fishermen my age in sportsman's clubs and activities. Everyone here is very good about taking their children and family out and exposing them to the outdoors, but its much tougher without that family bond. I am a DWF member and at metings, introductions are like puling teeth. For the most part members seem to want me to be the one to take the intiative and strike up a conversation. I get thats a cultural thing and thats also how I was raised (the junior members is responsible for taking action and introducing themselves). But if the situation is as dire as described, you would think folks would go out of their way to make young members feel welcome. 

Its always an interesting first meeting when I take open seats on fishing trips. Most guys are pretty apprehensive of the college kid before I get a chance to make a good impression. And I'm sure there are others who have simply passed when they heard my age. I get why they do it, its just funny when you come on MS and see the worry about loss of youth participation.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Ann Arbor Hokie said:


> ...One thing i want to point out is the effort to involve hunters/fishermen my age in sportsman's clubs and activities. Everyone here is very good about taking their children and family out and exposing them to the outdoors, but its much tougher without that family bond. I am a DWF member and at metings, introductions are like puling teeth. For the most part members seem to want me to be the one to take the intiative and strike up a conversation....


ah, but this too is not a new concept. I still remember when I "shoehorned" my way into an existing DU chapter in the late 80's and for the first year and a half or so, I was a definite outsider. Took a looooong time for the old-timers to warm to a young person, late 20's at the time, coming into their corner of the world. But eventually I won them over, and honestly some of them are still my closest hunting and family friends.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

If there's such a decline why is it so hard to get permission? Are people spreading themselves out more? Because when I get denied most of the time its because someone is already hunting. People are also bailing on hunting because they cannot afford to lease.

I agree its much more than education, its a cultural shift..

Good points Shlewgo


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> ah, but this too is not a new concept. I still remember when I "shoehorned" my way into an existing DU chapter in the late 80's and for the first year and a half or so, I was a definite outsider. Took a looooong time for the old-timers to warm to a young person, late 20's at the time, coming into their corner of the world. But eventually I won them over, and honestly some of them are still my closest hunting and family friends.



Still that way..Shouldn't be...Most dislike Duck Commander but if ya pick up on what he says to them and pushes his grand kids to get out..If family doesn't show the way in hunting its likely it wont get picked up


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## Ann Arbor Hokie (Oct 6, 2011)

just ducky said:


> ah, but this too is not a new concept. I still remember when I "shoehorned" my way into an existing DU chapter in the late 80's and for the first year and a half or so, I was a definite outsider. Took a looooong time for the old-timers to warm to a young person, late 20's at the time, coming into their corner of the world. But eventually I won them over, and honestly some of them are still my closest hunting and family friends.


Oh no doubt. Im not suggesting its changed at all. In fact thats what i expect from outdoorsmen, especially as fish and game stocks decline and space becomes more and more limited. My comment was aimed more at the idea that the number of young people entering their sporting world is far less than the 80's. And for all the worrying done online by mostly the more senior members, there's little to no interest in accelerating the warm up period. Which is fine, but it makes me chuckle whenever people talk about building the next generation of outdoorsmen. I think for about 80% its simply something to complain about in the same vein as all the "back in my day" statements.

And in regards to taking 20+ years to get incorporated to the social groups, as many have pointed out, my generation is relocating for work if they dont want to be in mom and dads basement. I know already that ill only be in michigan for 4 years. It would still be nice to be treated as a regular member without the warm up period. Dont think it will change, but putting my opinion out there.


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## M.Schmitz87 (Mar 12, 2013)

Ann Arbor Hokie said:


> I can tell you I am an outlier (24 and working towards a Ph.D. at michigan) and there are less and less young people entering the sport. If I do reach retirement age, I'll guarantee I have less options for fishing buddies than current retired members have.


I feel the same way. You know what? Just give ma a call. We are at the same agegroup and im sure we could gather more people our generation for a young gun trip. Just a bunch of guys in the same age hanging out, fishing, hunting. 
Maybe thats just what our generation needs?! More real life contacs and communal spirit.


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## cdoj (Mar 14, 2013)

M.Schmitz87 said:


> I feel the same way. You know what? Just give ma a call. We are at the same agegroup and im sure we could gather more people our generation for a young gun trip. Just a bunch of guys in the same age hanging out, fishing, hunting.
> Maybe thats just what our generation needs?! More real life contacs and communal spirit.


Count me in!


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