# need bear guides input



## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

To help us get things in perspective I am asking for bear guide's input to the following questions:

1. If you are operating on public land, how many bait sites do you need for your 
operation?

2. Do you have guiding assistants (employees)?

3. How far apart do you feel bait sites need to be?

4. How do you handle it if you encounter someone setting up near a bait site you have 
been maintaining and you feel it jeopardizes your client's success?

5. How would you handle it if another guide began operating in your area?

6. Do you believe guide's need to comply with the same requirements as other 
business' operating in Michigan, or be exempt?

7. If you supply tree stands for your clients, have you considered your liability?


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## chingescook (Aug 13, 2009)

I bait on private property 7 sq mi. Also on a 800 acre property and some smaller acreage as well. If the bear density is on the heavy side I could have [some] baits as close as quarter mile. Sure the same bears will be at both baits. On the smaller propertys one or two baits. 1 or 2 baits per sq mi would be my choice. Still depending habitat and population.
Welcome the White Oak unit as it will be taken out of the Red Oak units club country starting next year. . I really enjoy the bear hunt subject. This is my first reply please go easy on me.

















oak


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Partner,

Thank you for your input. Looks like the others do not want to step-up.

You obviously know your area and what works. 

Just for the record, guiding on private property does not conflict with other users and it is not the focus of this management concern.


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## chingescook (Aug 13, 2009)

Thats why I only responded to #3 that ans [could] apply to public land


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## hunt4life (Dec 22, 2006)

Ok rooster I'll bite. 

1. I set up two baits per hunter mainly being incase something happens to one of the baits such as people gasing or disturbing a bait, some body moves right in on the bait, bears quit hitting, ect. I do this mainly because a person has made an agreement with me and I do what I can to give that person what is promised.

2. No I do not have employees. The only reason I take on hunters is because I enjoy doing it. I only take a couple hunters to cover my cost of doing what I love to do.

3. My baits are atleast two miles apart. I only have one hunter this season and his two baits are roughly 13 miles apart.

4. So be it if they set up a leagal bait close to mine if its on public ground. Thats why I set up two baits for the hunter. If they actually set up there stand over my bait or do set up and illegal bait site I notify the DNR. Not that they do anything but I try to stay legal.

5. I know of quite a few other "guides" in the area I hunt. As long as everything is legal. It doesn't bother me. Hard work and good scouting usually pay off. 

6. I beleive some should. Meaning if your making a living doing so then yes. I know what your thinking but I think me taking a hunter in trade for the cost of my bait is a little different then these guys taking 20+ hunters. I know of a few different guide services in the area that are probably makeing 20,000 of off so called guiding. One inparticular sticks out in my mind that don't even live in the area. Shows up labor day weekend dumps a 1,000 pounds of bait at each site with probably ten guys helping him. Then runs back home. Then shows back up three days before season and collects money and tells his hunters how he's been baiting his stands since Aug. 10. Any way I'm getting off subject. Sorry!! 

I don't supply tree stands. I work to hard to get stuck feeding some cluts for the rest of there life.


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## shephard1993 (Aug 5, 2009)

I guide in the pigeon river state forest in the northern lower, and a very little bit on surrounding private properties. This area is about 118,000 acres. I try to take from 1 to 5 hunters per season. I establish 2 baits per hunter, and feed less than 5 gallons per site per day. I feel that covers them incase of a bait shutting down. This could happen from bird camps, missed shots, tampering, and natural food sources among many other things. I have followed a strict rule for many years. It goes like this, I see one sow with cub track on a bait any time in the 30 day bait period there will not be a hunter set there. I sometimes maintain these baits just to try keeping her out of trouble somewere else. I do not want her harmed in any way, and do not expect a hunter to be able to always tell. In 15 years I have never had a hunter shoot a wet sow or cub. I can count on one hand how many times hunters have seen sow/cubs that they reported to me. I do give at least one bait a year up because of the little fellas. Contrary to what statistics show most of my clients bears are subordanent males in the 150 to 220 class. We have shot some much larger, and yes some are dry females. I also run with hounds very regular and keep a fair count on the local bear population. I do not claim to be a biologist, but think our local bear run about a 5 year high low. We will have a very good year maybe go 100% opertunity. The following year will be poor, but gain for a couple years back to great. Just for the record last season was very good. I had 3 hunters take 2 bear both over 200 dressed. 1 boar 1 sow. These 3 guys saw 7 bear between them and chose to pass on several small but legal bear.I have also recovered my share of wounded bear that the average hunter may not have found. I owe that to determination, and sometimes the aid of a leashed hound. There is other guides in my area, and I feel they have the same right to be there as I do. I have never had a problem with another guide. I have had a few guys tell me they had more right than I did because they were doing it themselves and I was just a guide that is out for the money only. I just move over, its not worth the hassle. I try to keep my baits at least a mile apart. As far as other baits close there is no 1 mile square of public ground in Cheboygan county without at least one and probably more baits. This area has a very huntable bear population. As a kid a remember many days without a track to run, now most days we have several to choose from. The permit system has helped the lowers population for sure. Some folks will lead you to beleave a guide would kill the last one for a dollar. Maybe that is true for some, but I just love helping, and being a part of every season. I worked as hard and was just as proud of the mink I trapped for 10.00 bucks last year as the ones I trapped for 40.00 bucks a few years ago. My ***** sold for a 6.90 average last fall, but I tried to hunt every night. And wether they go for 4.00 or 400.00 I will hunt every night this fall as well. If the bait hunter/hound hunter and all hunters would let us few guides join in the big fight against the liberal anti they may be surprised. I will say this much I as a guide and hunter will fight for our rights with or without the rest of you.


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## hubbarj (Jan 30, 2007)

Thank for the replies fellas. I wish some of the big operations would reply and address #6.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> To help us get things in perspective I am asking for bear guide's input to the following questions:
> 
> 1. If you are operating on public land, how many bait sites do you need for your
> operation?
> ...


 
1- 2 per hunter depending on how many hunters

2-I am an assistant...I dont get paid, I do it because I like to. And I get my hunt free

3- Preferably a mile depending on habitat/access

4- If they have the ambition to get there, they can have it.

5- hopefully they would be willing to work together for everyones benifit.

6- Yes, Its a business

7- We have treestands available if they dont have their own.


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## woodtick777 (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm a guide here in mich and alaska. I run two baits per person. I make sure there active. If i see a soe and cub on a bait i do not let a client hunt that bait i just keep feeding it for the soe and cubs. As for a business. Here in michigan there is no way to make a liveing on bear hunting on its own. The price of gas and bait and all the time you put in. As for it to be a business or a guide lic per guide it will not be good due to all the hunters. hunters these days can't get a long as it is. I think there would be lots of problems. As for a bait being to close. I know a lot of people are lazy. They look for a nother mans bait and set up close. With all the state land here. The same is with deer hunting here. if you find a nice buck someone else will also be on the same buck. People should look else where if they see someone else is in the area. I keep my baits at least 2 to 3 miles away. A bear can smell bait for 3 miles away. If you are baiting right. I know a lot of people due not know how to bait right. It is all different if you are a big piece of private proptry. You can control it your self. As a guide here i do all baits my self. So i can see whats up and ck the size of bear comming in. As for this to go through strickly through a guide would be nice for guides. But michigans hunters can't afford the price a guide needs to make it. But there is two many problems with hound and bait hunters now. Now in alaska it is different. hope i helped some.


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## longun (Aug 28, 2008)

1. One to four hunters one bait per hunter.

2. This year I put one man on as I have a hunt too. He will be on jest for the hunt.

3. The Deadstream I would bet the house over 100 baits in a ten sq. mile area. I had nine baits on a one mile road last year.

4. I will move two baits this week because of Johnny come lately. No big thing.

5. Simple Out hunt them. Knowledge is the key.

6. NO I will do the math after the hunt but jest looking at it I would have to add a 1,000 $ to the hunt putting it out of reach of most hunters. I do file taxes on all wages.

7. No I will not even hang them.

Longun
Cole Creek Outfitters


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

longun said:


> 3. The Deadstream I would bet the house over 100 baits in a ten sq. mile area. I had nine baits on a one mile road last year.


:yikes: glad we dont hunt near the roads.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Just an opinion, but 100 baits in 10 square miles is obviously an overcrowded situation detracting from a quality hunt for all involved. 
Pathetic management badly in need of an overhaul. A small step to reduce the number of baits would be to make sure individuals are only setting-up 3 baits per person. Idaho issues bait site tags with an identification number...its works for them.


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

If that's hunting....I quit!


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

For someone who's baits (just a widely scattered few) are far out in the swamp, That concentration out by the roads is a GREAT thing. It makes it tough to keep up with the bait though. knowledge is the key..


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

Bearboy: Lets nip this in the bud once and for all.

Say you want to hunt Ontario and let's just say it's legal for you to do it all your self (even though you can't). Ok, you live about 4 1/2 hours from Soo, ON or about 7 hours from Fort Francis, ON. On top of that, you have to drive say...another three hours beyond the border. So, you're looking at a 7 1/2-10 hour drive from your driveway to the area you want to hunt. Are you really gonna go drive that distance a few times a week to bait before your hunt?....even if you don't...are you gonna drive there once a week to throw out a ton of bait....probably not. So, for you to say it's not hunting if you don't do it yourself is a big joke. Take a guy from Grand Rapids, metro Detroit, or Lansing that wants to hunt near your hometown. It'd be at least an 8 hour drive for them so the only way they could really get a good hunt planned is to go through a guide. You have to remember that we have over 9 million people in the State of MI and only 250,000 or so live in the U.P. What's that leave down below the bridge?....over 8.75 million....so we're not the only residents of the State here....we are the minority living in the U.P. Oakland Co. alone holds 3 million residents.....many other are pretty high up there too and they're all a 4 hour drive just to the Mackinaw Bridge.

These types of threads should start going in the Political Forum, thrown out, or a Bear Management/Guiding section installed...it's getting old hearing many people rhetorically try to say they don't want downstate hunters invading "their U.P.". Many States and Provinces have guide services...we just deal with and and hope the hunters have a good time on their vacation. Heck, reflecting back even more, some areas a hunter must have a guide.....is that what you're hoping for? Some of you keep running your flapper and you may just be the one that has to hire a guide in the near future....to hunt a bait pile three miles from your front door.

Good Day!


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

????


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Not sure you understand, Uptracker...nobody has proposed outlawing guiding. The objective is to license and regulate it and cull out the unethical guide's. Not sure why you feel victimized by folks seeking to rein in the abuses relating to out-of-control commercializing. 

All 18 user groups represented on the Bear Consultation Team came to a full consensus to license & regulate guiding. So, the issue has broad support. 

I believe this forum has been a great resource for providing information that many members would not have known about, and we have had a long and healthy dialog where we brainstormed a lot of different scenerios. It has been a healthy debate in my opinion.


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

have unregulated guiding for bear?


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Not sure you understand, Uptracker...nobody has proposed outlawing guiding. The objective is to license and regulate it and cull out the unethical guide's. Not sure why you feel victimized by folks seeking to rein in the abuses relating to out-of-control commercializing.
> 
> All 18 user groups represented on the Bear Consultation Team came to a full consensus to license & regulate guiding. So, the issue has broad support.
> 
> I believe this forum has been a great resource for providing information that many members would not have known about, and we have had a long and healthy dialog where we brainstormed a lot of different scenerios. It has been a healthy debate in my opinion.


I'm not arguing that at all....it's just the select few that say "guided hunts aren't hunting" and so on. I understand that there's commitees for everything, but I wouldn't consider this site the best resource for input. Too many people on here use their own uneducated rhetoric and try to spin others with their iggnorant views of the topic at hand. If you want solid advice and/or input for the commitees research, send out a few surveys to current guiding operations that actually give two hoots instead of using a bunch of yahoos on a message board to base the research on. One of the most reputable bear guides in MI isn't even a member here because all of the misinterpretation thats caused by, again, iggnorance.

P.S. Even I could say I'm a guide. Would you like me to respond to the six questions so it can be taken back to the commitee? Heck, I'm baiting a spot for a guy right now.


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## duncan (Feb 23, 2005)

I'm one of the hunters that has paid for a guide service in Michigan. I support his efforts 100 %. He works his rear off. And as stated before he does this for the love of the sport. As I'm sure most others do also. There are others that don't put the time or effort into their operation. I have an experence with this type also. What is the purpose of these questions.  Oh by the way I do support free enterprise.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Duncan, the reason for the questions were clearly stated at the start of this thread: To get some perspective from those operating guiding services; size of operation/number of bait sites...how close together are your baits...do you employee helpers...how do you handle conflict with other users (territorial disputes on public land)...how many understand they are operating a business (mostly on public land)...are they aware of the liabilities if providing trees stands for clients.


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