# Looking to buy a muzzel loader?



## UNREEL (Jun 8, 2007)

Grouse Hunter said:


> The barrels from land to land are about a .001 smaller on the TC guns. While many are complaining here, I see it as an advantage. A tight seal with the sabot will contribute to more consistent shooting.


Which doesn't do you a bit of good when you can't load the ******* thing. A second shot in the field is impossible without running 2 or 3 patches down it, a lot of fun to do in a tree stand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OJT (Nov 28, 2007)

Spend the money and buy an Ultimate made right here in Mich. then go to the range and shoot, shoot, shoot and shoot some more. You will also need to top it with and good quality scope with target turrets it you expect to do long range shooting. I own one of these and this ML will get the job done at those distances and beyond but most shooters cannot. In fact most hunters in the field have a hard time being accurate @ 100 yrds. 
my advise would be to buy one of the more popular mass produced ML's out there and get closer to your game as most of these will provide deer killing accuracy out to 150-200 yrds. If you have the $$ then by all means the Ultimate ML is the way to go its in a different class but expect when all said and done to have roughly $3,000 into it.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

UNREEL said:


> Which doesn't do you a bit of good when you can't load the ******* thing. A second shot in the field is impossible without running 2 or 3 patches down it, a lot of fun to do in a tree stand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What the heck are you shooting out of that thing? Just ask'n......

I know and have known many a Encore/Pro Hunter shooters and the only time that they have problems, is when they're shooting 2f or something that is "filthy" and leaves crud rings etc.
Yes, some may load harder with different kinds of bullets but, if you have problem running a second sabot/bullet down the barrel, to the point that its "impossible", its time to change things up....... Its not the rifle's fault 

Update: I have known those, that haven't taken proper care of their barrels, that have had problems starting and seating a sabot/bullet. Not to suggest that this is the case, however I know of one specific person that had to replace his barrel because of rust and pitting, which made it "almost impossible" to load without easy load sabots.


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

OJT said:


> Spend the money and buy an Ultimate made right here in Mich. then go to the range and shoot, shoot, shoot and shoot some more. You will also need to top it with and good quality scope with target turrets it you expect to do long range shooting. I own one of these and this ML will get the job done at those distances and beyond but most shooters cannot. In fact most hunters in the field have a hard time being accurate @ 100 yrds.
> my advise would be to buy one of the more popular mass produced ML's out there and get closer to your game as most of these will provide deer killing accuracy out to 150-200 yrds. If you have the $$ then by all means the Ultimate ML is the way to go its in a different class but expect when all said and done to have roughly $3,000 into it.


That's not all bad I have $5000.00 in to my weatherby accumark.I shoot long range with my rifle.I spend alot of time at the range.I shot a doe at 569 yards with a 7mm-08 this year and killed it most my shots are over 300 yards that I shoot.


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## OJT (Nov 28, 2007)

Enigma, then I will tell you to buy one they are very well made all custom and shoot like no other. They are truly what you are looking for. Take a look at there web site just google ultimate ML and check them out if you have any questions feel free to send me a PM.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Enigma said:


> That's not all bad I have $5000.00 in to my weatherby accumark.I shoot long range with my rifle.I spend alot of time at the range.I shot a doe at 569 yards with a 7mm-08 this year and killed it most my shots are over 300 yards that I shoot.


How many of them you got?


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

Wow I didn't think that 250-300 yards was asking much out of a muzzle loader, but I guess it is.I watch a friend shoot 200 yards with his knight muzzle loader didn't seem to hard but I guess it sounds like that's the limit for these gun's other than the ulitimate muzzle loader.So the muzzle loader scopes that they sell that show 250-300 yard aim lines are full of crap then.Wow I'm glad I ask, I thought the T/C omega or triuumph could do it but I was wrong or a knight muzzle loader but they don't make them any more.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

> IMO, if you're looking to shoot 250 to 300 yds with a muzzleloader, you need to learn to get closer to your intended target.


You've obviously not seen how he "Hunts." :lol:

This one from Ulitmate Muzzleloader seems to work. Add a bench, tripod, shooting chair, soothing music and a Masseuse, no telling how far you could shoot deer.

_Accurate Custom Muzzleloader
In the hands of a capable marksman, the Ultimate Muzzleloader has fired 5 shot groups of one half inch at 100 yards and 3.75" at 500 yards. This rifle has been used with great success on big game from brown bears in the Yukon and Alaska to cape buffalo on the plains of South Africa. _


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## GATORGETTER (Jan 31, 2008)

This is the Enigma hunting shack. Looks like he is setup for them long range shots.


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## OJT (Nov 28, 2007)

I would not say all of them are not capable my two Savages are good out to 300 but there again they have both had custom work done to them. You have to remember your somewhat limited with choice of bullets most do not have a high enough BC to get that long range accuracy. I also do not make a point of trying to shoot deer at 300 yrds either and most of the time its 100 or less. However, under the right conditions I can make that shot if required but prefer to shoot at less distance.


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## OJT (Nov 28, 2007)

try this site lots of info here 

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi


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## mac339 (Feb 7, 2008)

I have had a lot of success with my Encore. Took a little work- with sabots and bullet combos. most important was sabots. HPH 12 sabot, Hornady FTX 250 grains, and 110grains BH209. It will stack them on each other at 100 yds. 

Was successful with 4+ 100 to 170 yds shots including 8pt low 100's class buck this year at 170 yds. bullet went exactly where intended - heart shot. (I keep the getting close for bow season)

I was confident several years ago with 3" or so groups at 200 yds with a different less accurate load.

Good luck and enjoy muzzleloading!


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

GATORGETTER said:


> This is the Enigma hunting shack. Looks like he is setup for them long range shots.


I have a swarovski range finder and a old redfield 45 deg spotting scope I got rid of this spotting scope and have a leica APO-televid-77 now and my weatherby accumark with swarovski scope.


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## hunt-n-fool (Oct 10, 2006)

Enigma said:


> I have a swarovski range finder and a old redfield 45 deg spotting scope I got rid of this spotting scope and have a leica APO-televid-77 now and my weatherby accumark with swarovski scope.


 
How much are the property taxes on that hunting blind? :lol:


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

Enigma said:


> I left out I would like it to shoot accurate and kill deer at 250-300 yards.I all so read that it might be better for a thompson encore to use a bergara muzzle loading loader barrel on it compaired to the thompson made muzzle loading barrel.But I don't know? that's why I'm asking on here.Or just buy some thing else. I want a good one if not one of the best muzzle loaders.


You would be much better served by a 30.06 for what you want. Not saying that you can't set up a ML for a 250-300 kill shot on a deer, its just most people lack the disciple and dedication to put the work into getting a load set up that will do that and the practice to maintain proficency with the ML to do it.

I can go to my safe right now and pull out my 30-06 and shoot in the kill zone of a deer at 250-300. I have been shooting ML's for alittle over a decade and I couldnt do that with my ML.

If you have the time, money, dedication etc to set up a ML to do what you want, more power to you, but if you are like 90% of the sportsmen out there who throw 2-777 pellets down the muzzle and follow it with what ever bullet/sabot combo the gun counter guy told you is the best, then stick with a 30-06.

Just my opinionm, take it for what it is worth or not at all.

J-


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

UNREEL said:


> Which doesn't do you a bit of good when you can't load the ******* thing. A second shot in the field is impossible without running 2 or 3 patches down it, a lot of fun to do in a tree stand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


shoot BH209 then, I shot 25 shots straight with OUT any cleaning or swabbing between shots. the 25th shot was only very marginally harder to get down the bore than the 1st shot, which was not hard at all.

This is on a TC Triumph.

J-


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

Enigma said:


> I have a swarovski range finder and a old redfield 45 deg spotting scope I got rid of this spotting scope and have a leica APO-televid-77 now and my weatherby accumark with swarovski scope.


No offense but that aint huntin, thats shooting. Might as well go to a highfence facility. Just my opinion.

As for being capible out to long distances, from _your_ posts you sound like "da man." LOL

J-


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

WELL your just Mr hunter.That's your opinion


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

Enigma said:


> WELL your just Mr hunter.That's your opinion


where in my posts did I say I was mr hunter? 

You however talk in your posts about shooting a doe at 569 yards, correct, therefore you appear to be "da man" when it comes to long range stuff, right?? you have a big ass blind, shooting off a bench rest, with a range finder and a spotting scope, sorry if that is not hunting to me. 

Just seems to me that with your apparent knowledge about long range shooting and hunting, you would know that a ML is not the correct piece of equipement for deer hunting at 300yards.

Just saying. :lol:

But alast this thread had jumped the tracks so I will bow out of it for the sake of your original question.

J-


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

Does require some hunting skills, has to know what a deer looks like and where to shoot them.........and a bit of effort and sacrifice, any idea what it must cost to heat that hunting condo....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

OJT said:


> I would not say all of them are not capable my two Savages are good out to 300 but there again they have both had custom work done to them. You have to remember your somewhat limited with choice of bullets most do not have a high enough BC to get that long range accuracy. I also do not make a point of trying to shoot deer at 300 yrds either and most of the time its 100 or less. However, under the right conditions I can make that shot if required but prefer to shoot at less distance.


Any of my Encore's or this Pro Hunter is capable also. However, its too far to shoot for the majority of shooters. Its one thing to lob one out there and another to make a clean killing shot. Those distances (300yds) are better left for centerfire shooters.

Now on the other hand, if the OP really wants to shoot that far, then I'd agree that he has one choice for a rifle, which would have to be the Ultimate. If he buys one, we expect to see pictures of it and the targets he shoots.....


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

This is off the subject can a person in michigan use a smokeless powder muzzle loader to hunt deer?Maybe I should of made a new thread. I have to admit I thought for sure a T/c muzzle loader could make those shots.Be leave me If I buy one you never here the end of it.


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## hunt-n-fool (Oct 10, 2006)

smokeless ML usage, yes you can and no you cant. Depends on what zone and season........ hope that answers your question !

You have to look at the rules for where you will be hunting. 

Take note that Savage quit production of the smokeless muzzleloader if that is the one you are refering to.


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## OJT (Nov 28, 2007)

The Savage 10 ML II is still in production.


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

hunt-n-fool said:


> smokeless ML usage, yes you can and no you cant. Depends on what zone and season........ hope that answers your question !
> 
> You have to look at the rules for where you will be hunting.
> 
> Take note that Savage quit production of the smokeless muzzleloader if that is the one you are refering to.


 Zone 2


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

Another option to the ultimate muzzleloader is having a Remington 700 or ruger77 modified by the guys at prbullet.com. 

Find a good used Remington 700 adl short action and send it in. They'll outfit it with a new barrel and set it up to use primed 6mm cases. Uber clean because the brass casing is a great seal from blowback. Can get outfitted for around 1500.00 and have an equal to the ultimate for half the cost.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

It sounds like you want a muzzleloader that shoots black powder substitute and not smokeless. That eliminates the Bad Bull ML. Your logical choice is an Ultimate ML. Here's a link to their website plus it's Michigan made. http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/


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## OJT (Nov 28, 2007)

The new Ultimates start about $1800, agreed if you have a Rem 700 laying around and convert its cheeper but really you had to buy that gun at one time so in the long run not much savings if any.


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

I checked out some other site today and found out that the knight disc elite mk 85 with a laminate stock will do the job up to 300 yards. the only thing they don't make knight right now but there are going to start making knight muzzle loaders again soon from what I was reading.Alot of people who owned alot of different muzzle loaders were saying they wish they kept there knight and never looked back.And the second choice would be a T/c omega with a laminated stock for longer ranges.


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## UNREEL (Jun 8, 2007)

jjc155 said:


> shoot BH209 then, I shot 25 shots straight with OUT any cleaning or swabbing between shots. the 25th shot was only very marginally harder to get down the bore than the 1st shot, which was not hard at all.
> 
> This is on a TC Triumph.
> 
> J-


Has nothing to do with the powder, the gun new out of box I had to use a piece of 2X4 on top of ramrod to get the 1st bullet down the pipe. Shoulda took the junk back right then and there. Shot that load, really had to work to seat the 2nd and has been that way ever since. I am a fanatic about clean guns, and muzzys need a lot more attention. So I can throw that theory out the window. Must have just got a lemon, oh well. Not my first choice in weapons anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bigair (Apr 16, 2004)

Here is your answer in a knight:
http://www.knightrifles.com/long-range-hunter-guns/
and yes, they have resumed production.


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## UNREEL (Jun 8, 2007)

ENCORE said:


> What the heck are you shooting out of that thing? Just ask'n......
> 
> I know and have known many a Encore/Pro Hunter shooters and the only time that they have problems, is when they're shooting 2f or something that is "filthy" and leaves crud rings etc.
> Yes, some may load harder with different kinds of bullets but, if you have problem running a second sabot/bullet down the barrel, to the point that its "impossible", its time to change things up....... Its not the rifle's fault
> ...


300gr SST in front of 2 pellets 777. Of course, will be switching to Barnes, might help with loading, I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grouse Hunter (Jan 23, 2000)

UNREEL said:


> Has nothing to do with the powder, the gun new out of box I had to use a piece of 2X4 on top of ramrod to get the 1st bullet down the pipe. Shoulda took the junk back right then and there. Shot that load, really had to work to seat the 2nd and has been that way ever since. I am a fanatic about clean guns, and muzzys need a lot more attention. So I can throw that theory out the window. Must have just got a lemon, oh well. Not my first choice in weapons anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



UNREEL if you want to part with it, let me know


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Enigma said:


> I checked out some other site today and found out that the knight disc elite mk 85 with a laminate stock will do the job up to 300 yards. the only thing they don't make knight right now but there are going to start making knight muzzle loaders again soon from what I was reading.Alot of people who owned alot of different muzzle loaders were saying they wish they kept there knight and never looked back.And the second choice would be a T/c omega with a laminated stock for longer ranges.


I heard a rumor, that CVA will have something to do with Knight. Am I positive? NO! But, I'll check with the person that gave me that information again for conformation.

Now, for your second choice...... Don't get me wrong. * There's nothing wrong with an Omega*. I'll repeat this for all the Omega shooters....*There's nothing wrong with an Omega.* They shoot very well. However, if you're insistent on shooting LONG RANGE with a muzzleloader and not use an Ultimate, IMO I wouldn't shoot the Omega over the Pro Hunter.

Irregardless of all the other things that may be necessary to shoot consistently accurate at long range, one of the most important is the rifle to shooter relationship. You're going to need a SMOOTH, CLEAN, CRISP, NO CREEP TRIGGER WITH A LIGHTER TRIGGER PULL AND NO OVER TRAVEL. Reducing lock time (speed it up) to help improve accuracy at long range will certainly help. You won't get any of that with a Omega or, be able to adjust it. Modifications for the Omega are just about zero. Yes, if you're a gunsmith, there may be a couple things that you could improve somewhat but, you'll never get out of it totally what you need.

On the other hand, you can make all those changes to a Pro Hunter. These changes can be made by you, by purchasing the necessary parts or, you can have it completed by someone else. Either way, with the proper load, your rifle would shoot most likely better than you would be able to shoot it.
You can increase the hammer spring from the approximate 30# standard hammer spring, up to the 51# spring. More and faster force. You can reduce the trigger pull to where you'd like it or, where its comfortable and safe. Or with just a few minutes of work, you can change it from a target trigger to a hunting trigger. Eliminate all trigger creep and install an over travel screw. ALL these things will improve your shooting accuracy.

I've had these trigger modifications completed on my Encore and Pro Hunter. I can assure you that I have NO CREEP, NO OVER TRAVEL. My trigger pull is at *2lbs. 10oz*. and the hammer springs are 51#. I have a friend that shoots here at the house with his new Pro Hunter, that did his own and rotates between a target trigger and a hunting trigger in a matter of minutes. His accuracy is outstanding. These modifications will make a great rifle, an excellent rifle.

My personal best shooting at 150yds is a 3/4" - 3 shot group with my Pro Hunter. I'd be shooting it at longer range but, the wife is a little concerned about the cost and me opening up another trail through the woods to the backstop. She forgets that my best friend is an excavator, who hunts the property, shoots here, and that I just did a complete rifle setup for him. Next spring, he said he's going to move some stumps for me 

Again........... I'm in no way bashing the Omega. They're a fine shooting and accurate rifle. But, the modifications that can make a great rifle an excellent rifle, can't be made to an Omega.

Good luck with your choice


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

UNREEL said:


> Has nothing to do with the powder, the gun new out of box I had to use a piece of 2X4 on top of ramrod to get the 1st bullet down the pipe. Shoulda took the junk back right then and there. Shot that load, really had to work to seat the 2nd and has been that way ever since. I am a fanatic about clean guns, and muzzys need a lot more attention. So I can throw that theory out the window. Must have just got a lemon, oh well. Not my first choice in weapons anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


54 cal bullets fit hard down that 50 cal barrel?


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

UNREEL said:


> 300gr SST in front of 2 pellets 777. Of course, will be switching to Barnes, might help with loading, I don't know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No wonder :lol:


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

They did say do some modification on the omega.Encore I do repect what you have to say I know you know your T/C guns.


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## UNREEL (Jun 8, 2007)

ENCORE said:


> 54 cal bullets fit hard down that 50 cal barrel?


Trust me, my first thought was some bonehead filled the box full of 54s and sent it down the line. Had to dust off the mic and prove it to myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Enigma said:


> They did say do some modification on the omega.Encore I do repect what you have to say I know you know your T/C guns.


There are people that try all different kinds of modifications to just about any brand of muzzleloader. Like in the other post, there are a few minor adjustments/changes that can be made to an Omega. However, you can not make all the different changes, especially easily by yourself, with little to no knowledge about gunsmithing to an Omega like you can the Encore/Pro Hunter. AND... feel safe about it. Some of the methods that people try when modifying their own rifles, COULD create dangerous situations. Would you want someone to hand you a loaded rifle, after they just told you that they took it apart and filed the sear?

One of, if not the best T/C man that I know, won't work on Omegas. However, he can tell you just about anything and everything that you could possibly want to know about the Encore/Pro Hunter. He'll make you a barrel, sell you a custom Bergera barrel, provide you with instructions and any parts that you need for modification of an Encore or Pro Hunter. http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=124

Mike Bellm is one of the top gunsmiths when it comes to the Encore/Pro Hunter. All my parts come from Bellm, along with others that I shoot with.

NOTE: For the very first time and as long as I've known about Mike Bellm, I've never heard him say one thing or want to work on any other make of muzzleloader. However, the new CVA Apex has seemed to catch Mike's attention. But then again, that rifle has yet to prove itself with NUMBERS of hunters shooting it. My assumption is, that it will in the near future.

Its up to you...........


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

UNREEL said:


> Trust me, my first thought was some bonehead filled the box full of 54s and sent it down the line. Had to dust off the mic and prove it to myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


TRUST ME!!!!! You must have missed one of the other posts that I made.

One of the guys that shoots here, brought over a number of different bullets to try. Yes, one bullet was the SST.

He shot a couple out of the package and then all of a sudden, he started bit%$#@! and ranting. I thought he busted something.

Long story short!!! *Six (6) of the bullets in that package were inside 54cal sabots!!!! * The bullets were the right bullets, however when they were put together, someone or some machine made the mistake and put the wrong sabot with it.

I've never seen or heard of that before. I suggested that he take the package and contact the manufacturer about it. They'd certainly want the lot number and might send him a couple packages just for reporting it. Needless to say, he settled on Barnes bullets and said that he'd just shoot the rest of the good SST's up.

You checked the bullets, did you check the sabot?


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