# Where'd everyone go?



## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

Well this Forum section hasn't had a post in a few days...since the 12th...Hasn't anyone been fishing the NW Rivers?


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

SLOW!!!!!!!! The fishing i mean. I hit multiple rivers this past weekend, not much going on from what i saw.


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## bigsid (Jan 13, 2003)

I think everyone's been at the icefishing forum. Guilty myself! It's going to be a tough winter I think. Let me see...we _do_ have steel this winter...and we most likely will have _ice_ this winter. Hmmmm...a very interesting dilema indeed!!! Could be an interesting debate!
Seeya somewhere...Sid


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## Ladykiller (Jul 22, 2000)

Most of the members that have been here the longest realize that there are too many people now visiting these forums (this site now has 6000+ members). Once they post a report, the following weekend they will have 20 more people at there favorite spot most likely.

I've fished almost every weekend this year and I've yet to post a report in a VERY long time.

There are alot of other reasons behind this but it's plain and simple, these forums create a problem of too much overexposure for alot of the smaller tribs.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

We don't condone posting about small tribs and if you got a hot spot on a bigger river that you don't want anybody to know about, ... don't post about it.


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## feeshermann (Feb 7, 2002)

Well put Ladykiller. Ever notice how many people that have wised up and not made any more bragging posts after they see the results? I don't care if its a Tippy Dam report, smart people keep their yaps shut. Can anyone give me one good reason why you'd post a specific fishing report besides the fact you're just bragging and need an ego boost? I could see if you had an interesting story or fancy yourself as some kind of outdoor writer, but otherwise, why? I can't even count anymore the amount of fishing spots I know of that have been ruined by pressure because someone had to brag about their trip on the internet to 10,000 people they don't even know. 

I know this won't be a popular opinion here(not that I care), but I think the report sections of these sites should be eliminated - Internet sites would be a lot more useful and less controversial if people would just stick to talking about issues, methods, etc. instead of feeling the need to brag about all the fish you just caught and tell everyone exactly where. Its getting ridiculous anyway with people fighting over posts - don't post about Yates, don't post about the Paw Paw, don't post about U.P. rivers, etc. Why don't people just go fishing when they can get out and go and don't worry about what people caught yesterday? Chances are the conditions have changed since the report was made anyway. The best time to go fishing is whenever you can get out - if you sit around on your butt with a computer waiting for a hot run, you're gonna probably miss out by the time you get there as fish are often hot one day and cold the very next day. Sorry guys, but I had to pitch in my 2 cents about this. Just go fishin!


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by feeshermann _
> *Can anyone give me one good reason why you'd post a specific fishing report *


I've posted some fishing and hunting reports in the past. Bragging and my ego have little, if anything to do with the reason why.

I don't mind sharing some information with others, albeit not any smaller lakes, streams, specific holes, etc. Members, most of them anyway, enjoy reading reports and seeing photos.

We need to take care when bringing up some of the more "secret" areas and I think that is the direction the administrators/mods on this site are going, putting some emphasis on restricting naming the more less known spots.

Maybe we need to get to this or maybe not!!!

"I fished a piece of water in Michigan and had some success using a variety of stuff on the end of my line.".............Just kidding a bit here!!!

To tell you the truth, I miss some member's posts, Splitshot being one, who shared photos, information, etc. about an angling adventure. He got burned and now doesn't bother to open themselves up to ridicule. I always read Steve's and Bob's discussions of their adventures on the PM and enjoy them thoroughly. I haven't fished the PM since I was in high school by the way and it is less than an hours drive SE of me.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

... And there is absolutely nothing wrong with posting about an angling adventure. Keep the pictures generic (don't show a dam or a bridge for example), don't name the river if you don't want, but heck, people love to see pictures.


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## Burksee (Jan 15, 2003)

Feeshermann,

I can see some validity in your statement, however...........

Long before the internet got popular and sites like this were around and guys were sharing there expierances on these boards I can attest that I dont see anymore, sometimes less people at some of spots that I fish. The Highbanks in Oscoda is a fine example. I've been fishing that stretch of the AuSable for over 20 years and although it still gets to be a mad house during the peak of the steelhead season in the spring I dont see it as any worse now than 20 years ago. If anything its better! Same at the Tippy dam and the Betsie, they've always been popular, crowded places and will be long after we're gone. (I hope!). I dont think I've ever read a post here that someone's givin up a unknown honey hole! I enjoy reading the success' and the failures that guys report. I do agree with you on one point; "Just go fishin"! 

Just my $.02 on the subject


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## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

> _Originally posted by feeshermann _
> *Can anyone give me one good reason why you'd post a specific fishing report besides the fact you're just bragging and need an ego boost? I could see if you had an interesting story or fancy yourself as some kind of outdoor writer, but otherwise, why?*


It's simple, just don't post where you have been fishing. I luv reading peoples adventures who ever you may be. Bigsid posted a report a few weeks ago that I really enjoyed. Why get rid of that?? I haven't posted where I have been fishing for since beginning of sept and before that who knows when the last time I posted where I was fishing. If you don't like it, don't read. If it wasn't for the reading of peoples success, I am not sure I would still be posting on the internet. That's what I think makes it fun sharing experiances. Some people do post for ego, but they don't last long here.

Also, Yes, some of the little rivers that only get so many fish that are near a big city don't need the publicity. One report of a fish being caught, the hole city is there I saw it happen this fall.


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## Steely-Head (Dec 2, 2001)

> _Originally posted by feeshermann _
> *Can anyone give me one good reason why you'd post a specific fishing report besides the fact you're just bragging and need an ego boost? *



Yeah, people love looking at pics. Posting pictures of nice looking fish for people to enjoy has nothing to do with ego (at least for most people). As far as locations, posting fish from major rivers (Muskegon, Manistee, St. Joe, etc) is basically harmless. Now when specific holes on smaller rivers and tribs are mentioned or shown, I can see where people could get upset.


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

Why do I post pics and stories on here? Most people think it's to brag about my fishing ability and these people are dead wrong. I post pics and stories to share them with the great people on this site and I hope everyone else continues to do so also. I for one enjoy it alot when I am working my overtime work weeks to save up the extra cash for my weekend fishing trip, and come on here and read all your stories and see all your pics. It does wonders for getting through all the overtime hours until I can leave for my trip! (and sometimes makes me split of out of work a few days early ) I have had many a false interpretations of my character because a few people think I am bragging and I think I am better than everyone else. Well, I don't know where they get that. I am just out to enjoy life, and fishing is one of my main ways to have fun. Then I come home and share my experiences. Even when I don't catch fish I post pics of the whole weekends events...As for specific rivers and such, I have learned to keep the names out of my posts. Nothing makes a fellow fisherman more mad than to see you happend to fish there favorite river stretch and then you post exactly where it is. So, My posts are, as someone said above, "Generic" pictures and no name rivers. Some people say my long posts like this make me a know-it-all...Well I kinda am...I am living my life and "I-know-it-all" is gonna be filled with fishing, friends and Fun! FISH ON!


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## JWF (Jun 25, 2001)

I haven't posted anything here becasue I haven't fished since the middle of October! Kind of a bummer, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

I post reports just about everytime I have gone fishing, whether its bass, salmon, steel , whatever, no matter how successful I was. I just feel a duty to post a report after I have gotten so much info from other members of the site, whether it is about conditions, rigging, fly tying, or whatever. I think the rules are pretty clear: don't name small tribs, and no specific holes.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

My pictures do more to prove that "even a blind chicken get's a kernal of corn once in a while", than they would ever do bragging


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

I agree that names of rivers, lakes or whatever are unnecessary expecially on the web. I know several disagree with me and that's fine. 
I can see that some people want to share with some others on this site. I love looking at fish pics too!! You have to keep in mind that each thread is viewed many many times. By others who have not posted on the thread.

For example, I want to let some know I got some fish in River X. I post on it. They reply and I see 3,243 views. Who did I share with? 
Please, keep stories and pics coming but I do not need to know where you were....

My .02


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Mickey and others of like thought.

I agree! Keep the pics and stories coming, but refrain from naming rivers and lakes, especially the smaller bodies of water. A general comment on the larger waters is okay, but give no specific holes. I've been guilty of this on the Big M at Tippy Dam.


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

I think posts are great. How about newbies? By reading reports and maybe even putting newbies into YOUR precious fish they may continue the sport which means money put back into the economy and money for state of Michigan that can go back into the streams!!! Enhancing your fishing not hindering. I can tell you from fly-fishing alot of differnt states and Canada, Michigan and other local organizations does alot for it's rivers. Sounds good to me. It also teaches ediquitte and conservation. IGNORANCE IS BLISS> B.S. The more aware we are the better off.


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## doxco (Dec 18, 2003)

As a new member of this forum but a longtime silent observer I can say that the opinion of the individuals who think this posting situation is detrimental to the rivers, their smaller tributaries and the overall fishing conditions are wrong. 

These forums provide a perfect environment to EDUCATE the general public about a PUBLIC resource. These resources face MUCH BIGGER problems when they are underutilized and/or un-recognized by the general public. The more that the public is brought up to date on key issues and situations the more support they will throw towards those issues. 

Although, sharing secrets and honey-holes puts unwanted pressure on an individuals PUBLIC not private fishing domain the few that are going to abuse this information are going to abuse the fishing areas anyway. 

Educating someone new to the sport (and yes even letting them catch a fish) allows you as a conservative forum to teach the correct way to treat these resources. A person educated in this way is far more likely to leave the location better than they found it, catch and release spawning fish and throw their vote to the side of the waterways when asked to do so. 

An individual who is stonewalled and treated as if he/she isnt part of the members-only club is far more likely to want to abuse the resource and take whats owed him when given the chance. Individuals who walk away from the sport disenfranchised will stay away from your holes, sure, but their support will be lost as well. 

You can look back at the discussions that occur/occurred as authors published books on the rivers and you will see the same issues. Are the rivers worse off since then? I would like to stress that as the waterways face more and more pressure, more and more support will be necessary, and your honey-holes will be filed in for condos if you dont continue to promote and better the sport. 

Will this cost you your private fishing barrel to shoot fish out of. Boo Hoo.

Keep posting, if your spot gets fished off, I can guarantee you that there is a better hole around the bend.


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## Hemish (Feb 3, 2003)

BIZ-E I work for a company that's busiest time is now til feb. I miss reading and posting, but mostly fishing. If anyone has a good spot where I can see or even hook steel between now and mid Jan, please send me a pm.

Can't wait to hit the river again.

Oh, I plan to post a year long memory deal but need some time, I bagged a nice doe on Thanksgiving morn- she said "yes" and now I'm engaged and pretty excited. 

See you all on the rivers!

Hemish


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Dox,
Welcome to Michigan Sportsman.com

Your input and inclusion in these forums can only be a plus for the rest of us.


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

It's not a matter of being selfish with OUR resource. 

When I first started fishing for steel, I didnt catch a lot. I bought some maps and did a heck of a lot of fruitless exploring. Then things got easier, and easier. Its called paying dues. I am definetly not going to put that where it gets 3,425 views. I will PM ya about a spot or river. 
BTW, the reports you get on the internet are always a week or two late. I think internet naming of rivers or lakes is BS. Especially on a site this big! If all it takes to read stream reports is to be a memeber...there are 6000+ members and a minority post. 
I would be happy to clump all reports and pics into one catagory called "fishing stories". I enjoy the stories and pics too. You know what rivers get fish......now, explore them. 

Even newbies know the PM, Big M, Mo, and countless others get runs of fish....  
Your right, ignorance is bliss>B.S. But education comes at a price of hard work.

These threads are not private discussions. why doesnt anyone get that?!?!


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

> These forums provide a perfect environment to EDUCATE the general public about a PUBLIC resource. These resources face MUCH BIGGER problems when they are underutilized and/or un-recognized by the general public.


I have not seen a big decline in fishermen on steelhead rivers of the lower peninsula lately.


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## Mike (Nov 26, 2000)

Dang Mike, you're fired up lately! Let's go fishing. 

Mike


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

This may sound like a bag of BS, but it took me 4 years to finally land a steelhead. There wasn't much help available since the Old Timers were very tight-lipped and info on fishing for them was limited to the occassional magazine article. This was a long time before Al Gore even thought about inventing the internet.

Methods on curing spawn were not in the archives of this website, neither were the numerous threads on how to fish for them. If anyone is serious about steelhead, the learning curve can be substancially shortened by doing a search within the site. The same goes for just about any game within our great State. To expect further posts revealing the remaining jewels that aren't beat to death on here or TSS, is absurd. Only a fool would post on them.
We still discuss new methods or re-hash the forgotten ones, but posting on certain stretches to prove a point, or get a pat on the back is a thing of the past.


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

I agree, Shoeman. If you wanna know what type of water I fish. Cool.
You wanna know what I use. Cool. I can help ya out with what line, rod, etc. Just ask...
even posts saying I caught some fish in NW michigan. But why do we need to know a name or stretch? 
I am not saying not to be helpful. There was a thread on here the other day wondering about corkies and what colors to use. Shoeman gave up some good colors, etc. Nothing wrong with that. There is LOTS of info. on how to catch fish here....now, go get em. You know what rivers to fish...learn them and enjoy them.

Sometimes we are like cats. When we catch something, we gotta show everyone. 

Mike,
You bet buddy. Name a time and place. It has been awhile since I been on the stream but I guess you can tell, eh?


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## bigsid (Jan 13, 2003)

Lots of good points on this thread, but the best one........


> It has been awhile since I been on the stream but I guess you can tell, eh?


 I think we _all_ need to go fishing!!!! Cabin fever seems to be at epidemic levels!!! As soon as this other epidemic (cold) goes away, I'm definitely going to make it out. (And let you all know how I did! !)
Take care guys...Sid


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

This thread is kinda funny.

Worried that a little report will create some massive overcrowding  .

Compare that to the reports the pier fishermen give during the salmon run. Some of those piers are less than 70 yards long but the'll tell ya how to get there, what to use . . .

Can ya at least tell me this, is the steelhead run as bad as last year?


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

> Worried that a little report will create some massive overcrowding


How about numerous reports with over 3,000 views? 





> Can ya at least tell me this, is the steelhead run as bad as last year?


Nope, it's better.  Just don't tell me where you go... 

Listen guys, we can go round and round (we have on this topic several times). We differ on opinion and that's fine. You earned your info., share with whom you like. I choose to do the same. 

Believe it or not but internet fishing has become quite popular. 
I would also like you to report on your morel spots and deer hunting (PUBLIC) spots. I have never shot one and would like to next year. Thanks.


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## twohand (Aug 5, 2003)

If you don't think a "little report" can hurt a river, go to the rogue. 
My .02 
twohand


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

> I would like to stress that as the waterways face more and more pressure, more and more support will be necessary, and your honey-holes will be filed in for condos if you dont continue to promote and better the sport.


Speaking of the Rogue, you mean more and more people are keeping condo developers from buying up property? How does that issue stand? I rememebr reading about the issue. Are the popular access spots still off limits? I almost stopped there not long ago for old times sake but remember reading about that.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Been fishing a bit catching very little. I fish for about an hour most evenings and get skunked most but not every trip. The fish are in a deep winter mode, the scenery is beautiful and the river is not crowded. Fishing now is either therapy or insanity.


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## doxco (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mickey _
> *I have not seen a big decline in fishermen on steelhead rivers of the lower peninsula lately. *


I do love this line of reasoning, because the recent trends in world growth clearly show that Lower Michigan will be empty in 2020. 

The whole idea of specifically telling people the GPS co-ordinates of holes is/was not my point. I believe that this site does the best job of posting relevant and pertinent information in regards to fishing, hunting, and the like. I do believe however that a longer term perspective on the pressures that are occurring is critical. (Example: the Rogue, what you dont think Baldwin is ever going to grow like Cedar Springs, why I bet they dont ever build a 4-lane highway between GR and Traverse City)
If the general public doesnt get to enjoy/appreciate a resource when it comes time to enlighten them to that resources particular problems they arent going to care

Im only picking up on the growing concern of these web sites that they need to monitor the content of the postings. My point is that these forums act as a positive vehicle for change (see any of the recent postings from BBT) and the few idiots who post a specific hole or a hot tip dont affect that spot as much as stopping the greater good of this medium.

A person has to be just as responsible for their actions on this site as they are for their actions on the river.


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## SA ULTRA MAG (Nov 7, 2001)

Mickey,

As far as the Rogue goes.........I heard from a reliable source (last weekend) that they are kicking people off of the posted development property. I have not heard of any trespassing tickets yet but that doesn't mean it hasn't happen.

I drove by there last weekend, seemed pretty quite. Not many cars......not sure about fish numbers.

I hope this helps.

Pat


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## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

Many opinions on this subject. Mine is to keep the posts generic.

Be specific about teaching methods, tips, etc but protect the smaller waters. Answer questions and help out when you can.

I do not post pictures (do not know how) lol, but fish for personal satisfaction only. If a few of us get together, I will talk about how I did, but not on the "world wide web".

If you are going to post pictures, make sure you do not keep the fish out of the water too long, just so you can get the good picture. This fish is stressed from the fight and laying them on the bank while you find your camera makes their survival rate less. If you plan to keep the fish to eat then there is no problem.

Another bad thing about taking pictures, is holding the fish with your fingers in the gills. Not good for the fish. 

I think of successful fishing as getting sex when I was a teenager. If things are going good keep your mouth shut. Going around bragging about who, where and when only goets you "cut off" if she finds out!!!  

Good fishin'.

Mickey, your new oar arm for your boat is in the mail.


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

Thanks Dave!! 

SA,

That's too bad. They just made a small stream smaller... 

Dox,



> I do love this line of reasoning, because the recent trends in world growth clearly show that Lower Michigan will be empty in 2020.


Finally, I get it all to myself!!!  Listen, I am not sure that Michigan has a negative growth trend. I find that hard to digest.
I care about our resources like you, just differ in how we advertise our cause. not sure all 3,000 views care about the resource like you and I.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Good points on both sides. I hardly think that saying "Hey the MO is hot", will do any more damage here than when it is reported in the fishing reports of various papers and magazines across the state, not to mention the TV shows. Now if it is a small stream/trib that's another whole ball of wax.


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

I see your point too, Steve. I also think that if you read a fishing report that SW or NW Michigan has some fish around, it is not hard to figure out where. And if one doesn;t know, do some homework. The Mo starts a week or two after the Pm.....etc. 

For example, I post a story about a trip I took last weekend to the SW. I post some pics of a couple fish and a few good laughs shared on the trip.
I am sure that one could figure out....hey, there's some fish around. Why do I have to say, "The Mo is hot. Go there." I may PM some buddies of mine that but I would not publically post that. This has been proven by the # of views threads get.

This site has changed. It is bigger and there are others out there that take advantage of how liberal we used to be with certain info. 

And if we follow the "do not post on smaller tribs" then we have the issue of what rivers can we post on and not post on. Kinda like what swears are we allowed and not allowed....new dilemma.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

> And if we follow the "do not post on smaller tribs" then we have the issue of what rivers can we post on and not post on. Kinda like what swears are we allowed and not allowed....new dilemma.


We will have to come up with a very specific list of rivers about which we WILL allow posting about and all others not on the list will be off limits.


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## jeremy L (Sep 19, 2002)

> We will have to come up with a very specific list of rivers about which we WILL allow posting about and all others not on the list will be off limits.


Does this mean Simply not posting the name of a river that is not on the list in a report or does that mean no posting at all about all other rivers, such as pics of fish caught from them, The way you caught them, etc. ?


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## Kevin (Oct 4, 2000)

I think it means the former. We already have a "No specific holes" warning on the river forums. We would further ask you to not name certain rivers. Methods pics of fish etc. is to be encouraged


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Very good points, Steve

After some additional thought, I would have to agree. Why pimp out the Mo or any big water. There's enough traffic without the increased numbers a good report would bring. Even without a report, one has to "stand in line" to slip a boat in there.

I base my trips on the flows as well. That seems to be the best indicator. No need to play god with the exploitation of our watersheds.

Keep it simple, discuss what worked, post some pics, but leave the name out of it.

NW, NE, ect should give a clue. Besides one day can make all the difference between a skunk and motherlode


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## ZobZob (Oct 27, 2002)

I have no problem with exploring, in fact, that is one of my favorites things about fishing... finding that new spot. Anyhow, I just am curious as to why it is secretive for rivers but not for ice fishing spots, piers, etc. I don't want to see the site become a general discussion but I do not see what the difference is. Believe me, I do not want to fight crowds to fish some of my lesser known spots either but the line is fuzzy on what to classify. I guess the best solution, in my opinion, would be to keep the quadrants (NW, NE, SW, SE) and let people post what they want as we have been doing. If you don't want to name the river don't and if you do, do. I know how you all feel, I have had some of my favorite trout streams mentioned on here a few times before but I just chose to keep my mouth shut or PM the person inquiring. I vote for business as usual. I think most of people are of sound mind and they know what to not be too specific about.

Zob


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Many things other than the internet have led to crowded rivers.I often hear guides complain that they take out a couple guys and for the next few days they are fishing salmon in the hot hole with out the guide. People have bought river craft in un precedented numbers in the last few years. Unfortunetly the rivers will probably get busier untill they reach a saturation point. Salmon season with its ridiculosly easy hookups has been a factor in the increase in river fishing. Almost every outdoor magasine you pick up has some type of articale on river fishing.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I agree Plugger. I really doubt many people read a site like this and then decide "I'm going to go buy a rod, reel, waders,and terminal tackle and go fish that river this weekend I read about."

I still think that the DNR should hand out Xanax at all the access sites to all those high strung guys being encroached upon by the lesser fishermen.


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## Sailor (Jan 2, 2002)

You guys worry too much! Having lived most of my life in western Michigan I have learned some disturbing truths: 1) Nobody hates a fisherman like a fisherman. 2) Nobody hates a hunter like a hunter. 3) Nobody hates a trapper like a trapper. etc.
We live in a wonderful state in which opportunities to fish abound! There's so
many "Honey Holes" and so little time!
It would behoove us all to help those
"College Kids" find the roads.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Sailor _
> *You guys worry too much! Having lived most of my life in western Michigan I have learned some disturbing truths: 1) Nobody hates a fisherman like a fisherman. 2) Nobody hates a hunter like a hunter. 3) Nobody hates a trapper like a trapper. etc.
> We live in a wonderful state in which opportunities to fish abound! There's so
> many "Honey Holes" and so little time!
> *


Sailor,
Unfortunately there's a lot of truth to what you say, to the detriment of the sports we claim to love.


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

I guess we all have different opinions on the matter. I vote for not posting stream names. 

What gets me is when people have to get involved with an isssue they think they know about but don't fish the rivers on a regular basis or insome cases, no nothing about a paticular stream and the annual migration of fish because they DONT fish it. I have been the butt end of lots of banter regarding a particular stream (and I dont even see the moderator forum). 

My opinion is still what I believe. I fish certain rivers on a regular basis and am tired of going round with some that do not fish them but seem to know everything there is to know about a certain system.

For example,


> I think all we really need to do is use discretion, the internet has not ruined fishing as some may claim. The salmon redds will not be empty because someone mentioned that they caught a few on River X in SE Michigan . To say otherwise is ridiculous.


Now, I am not picking on John but here is a typical example of "behind the scenes" banter.  wink wink....realy sick of that. I ain't worried to speak out against it. 
Going out on a "ridiculous" limb here, in 3 miles of river that I walked this fall. I found 3 redds and a few small isolated pods of fish. Lots more walking than anything. But because other's "know" so much they allowed it to blow up into an issue where they still think there is a major run that I want to hide. 
Yes, those salmon redds would surely be empty. Guarenteed. I fish it, I know. If you want to explore a little, great....but do not broadcast that for the masses. 
Some got to the point of proding for information but lived 15 minutes from the river. Hey, get off the computer and go put in some miles. Thats what I do every year. 
Quotes like "spill your guts..." blau blau blau. All coming form someone I have never seen a report from....ever. 

The key to catching sttelhead. Get up off your behind and practice until you get it right. Your computer aint gonna help you.

Like I mentioned before, I dont hear anyone giving out their morel spots or deer hunting blinds....anyone want to address the difference?


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

> Like I mentioned before, I dont hear anyone giving out their morel spots or deer hunting blinds....anyone want to address the difference?


I liken giving out river names to giving the name of a particular woods or state game area in a hunting forum. If you post that the deer numbers in Lost Nations State Game area are incredible this year, how many people are going to base their hunting activities there? More than you think, and won't that really suck when you try to find a spot to hunt and there isn't one? This isn't about "lesser fishermen" crowding into a secret spot. I, for one, have no problem fishing with other people and when I see someone struggling or not being successful, I'll help them out as long as they're receptive to it. But these are two different issues...there is a clear difference between obnoxious fisher people who are unwilling to practice or learn river ettiquete and the issue of willfully opening up sensitive river systems to potential abuse and or damage by posting reports where thousands of people can read them! The thing that ties the two issues together is the same topic of discussion in this thread. More pressure leads to a decline in ettiquette, period. I saw years ago that more and more people were hitting the rivers. Most were simply there to have a good time yet they just didn't have any clue as to what they were doing. The Joe was my home river for years and if wade the Joe, you have to expect pressure. Most of the "rookies" were great guys and I figured that if I was going to have any pleasant fishing experiences, I'd help show them the ropes...at the very least, if they understood that there is some degree of ettiquette involved, I wouldn't be having my day ruined by line after line getting crossed up with mine or get swatted in the head by a fishing rod because a guy decides to basically stand in my hip pocket when there is 100 yards of unoccupied shoreline in either direction! If pressure is a given, then it's important that we teach the newbies some tricks of the trade.

Teaching is one thing, though and I'm comitted to doing that and I encourage others to do it via whatever medium you choose. At the same time, however, pimping out river systems is not a requirement for teaching and sharing knowledge. Drift fishing, jig/bobber fishing, plug fishing, reading water, understanding steelhead behavior, ect is not river specific. You should be able to take any knowledge you have acquired to any river system and have some degree of success. A hole on the Rogue is going to have some of the same characteristics and traits as that of a hole on the PM. Are you willing to find those holes? Are you willing to study your locations and figure out why you caught a fish there? If so, then you don't need to have your fish handed to you on a silver platter. It's not a question of me "guarding" my secret spots per se' because any knowledgable steelheader is going to find them if they look. BUT...I'm not going to send an invitation either. It just baffles me as to why someone can go all day on a river, see one or two anglers tops, get into a nice number of fish with no one around and then feel compelled to post about it along with the river name on the freakin' internet! I mean, go ahead and post about your day, post a few pics, brag...do whatever you need to do, but if there isn't a lot of anglers around and you had spot after spot to yourself, maybe naming that river in a report where thousands can read it isn't the smartest thing to do. That's what it boils down to. The crowds will gather where the crowds usually do...God Bless 'em! That's what they're happy with and it's productive at times. For gosh sakes, though...does every river have to be like Suicide Bend?


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Steve...you posted yours while I was typing mine! I love the ideas that your proposing to phase in!


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## bigsid (Jan 13, 2003)

> The key to catching sttelhead. Get up off your behind and practice until you get it right. Your computer aint gonna help you.


 I like this quote. Truer words were never spoken. Now back to the topic. I like the idea of being able to mention the larger rivers just because it adds to the stories and helps you "put yourself in those waders" when you can't be there. And the pics (fish porn as TC calls it) are great. But apparently there are some detrimental effects to this (naming rivers). Smaller tribs are a no-brainer as far as posting about goes, but I'd like to think the major rivers (w/out mentioning specifics or showing in pics) would be alright. What can I say? Oh well, a perfect world would be nice!!
Take care guys...Sid


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

> I like the idea of being able to mention the larger rivers just because it adds to the stories and helps you "put yourself in those waders" when you can't be there.


Is it the adventure itself or the river name that's important? How many people felt cheated by a former members reports because, despite the great descriptions, enthusiasm and top notch pics, he rarely mentioned the river where he was fishing? Probably very few. Even the name of a river is deceiving...Hemingway wrote "The Big Two Hearted", but he was actually writing about an entirely different river alogether! If you can imagine yourself on the water by reading a report with pics, then go the full route and visualize those adventures in your mind as if they were happening on your favorite stretch of river...whether there is a name included in the report or not! 

Just remember, for every reader who "can't be there", there's probably 10 or 20 that CAN!


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## Steely-Head (Dec 2, 2001)

Good ideas for the forums Steve, I think they will work well.

As far as posting pics, since myself and others have touched on that topic:

If someone catches a fish they are proud of, there is no problem with posting a pic of it. The issue of "bragging" seems quite silly to me considering everyone loves looking at pictures. I for one know I love looking at them. I have looked at hundreds of great pics on this site and not once did it cross my mind that someone was bragging by posting a picture. There is a difference between being proud of a fine catch and sharing it with others and bragging. Keep the pics coming, they help keep this great site great.


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## bigsid (Jan 13, 2003)

TC...Very good points indeed! I don't think anyone will burn your books over this one! 

Steve...How is this going to be made known? Other than this thread of course?


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## MSUICEMAN (Jan 9, 2002)

makes sense to me, like the changes, though i didn't really see a problem with it before, but i don't see the harm in changing it either. I hope this doesn't cut down the pictures/stories and hopefully encourages it, as I love seeing the pics and hearing about the good and bad times people are having.

steve


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

I kinda jumped off the handle cause I wasn't feeling real good today and been in a real pain in the butt mood lately.

I specifically would like to publically apologize to John (quest32) because of a misunderstanding on my part and a bad choice in posts. So, John...hope your not ticked. You always have been a respectful and proactive moderator here. 

Going fishing tomorrow.....not sure where yet but it'll do me some good.


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

Good luck fishing Mick, no apology needed. Just a little misunderstandiing, it happens. 

When i first started reading this thread i came in with the idea that i had no problem with the old policy of naming rivers. And as of right now i still do not have a problem with it. But i got to thinking, when i read a report on a river normally the last thing i pay attention to is what river it was on. I like seeing the pictures and stories much more than i like to see the reports. That is the fun part, not the report. Normally i make plans to go fishing a week in advance and have a pretty good idea of what river i plan on fishing. So many of the reports have little influence on where i fish, all i know is that i am going fishing. 

But not naming rivers simplifies the process, there is no grey area, no discussion. Simply put posts should not contain specific rivers.... just general areas. So that is fine with me. 99% of my posts i dont' even mention the river, so i will have to do very little to change the way i post. See yall on an the River X.


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Exception for [email protected], everyone knows where he fishes. Now, but what about all the newcomers for the next five years? Its ok for one person to name and report on one river. You dont think that poor river is going to see even more traffic from the instant gratification fishermen? I see no reason why he cant make a report just like the rest of us. He will just skirt the restriction with a link to his own site because he and Bob cant afford to quit making reports on the PM. If you are doing what you think is best for the resources then apply it across the board Steve. Riverman


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I kind of have to agree with riverman on this one. I really enjoy posts from people like Kirk and John(quest) and some of the other recreational guys because of the enthusiasm they have for the river. There are at least four sites that you can get guide reports just for the pm. I will also have to say Steve is the only guide that posts realisticaly. I realy thought guys did a good job of not posting specifics. I enjoy Dennis pictures and have no idea where he was. If you recognize the place you already know about it, no harm done. 

PS I have the flue and about all I can do is read this site.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

So I'm checking out a few posts on another website a few minutes ago and I find one that has this in it...

And I quote:

"The unnamed trib or large western Michigan river descriptions suggest a juvinile attitude. This board is suppose to be helpful. We fisher guys from the eastern part of Michigan who have to drive four to five hours to get to western part of the state would be appreciative to know some of these "secret" tribs or large rivers because we are not in a posistion to a lot of detective work or exploring. Remember that sharing is caring, and general information would be helpful, such as the name of the trib or river, and a general location like the township, or near so and so highway or road, etc. "


Geez, pretty soon and "general information" will be a particular geological landmark such as a stump or log jam! Anyone have a silver platter handy? 

Next thing you know, people will be marking the hot spots with Bouys so that other anglers will know they're there...er...uh, wait a minute...


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

> But not naming rivers simplifies the process, there is no grey area, no discussion


And that was one of the deciding factors for me.


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