# Trip to ski resort strictly business, DNR insists



## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Trip to ski resort strictly business, DNR insists

The anonymous e-mail tip to the newsroom came with its own bulletin:
"STATE DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES PLANS WEEK-LONG TRIP TO SKI RESORT AS MICHIGAN BUDGET GOES INTO TOILET."

"It's true," the e-mail said. "The DNR Law Enforcement Division is planning a March 5-9 trip to Treetops Resort for all of its conservation officers and staff ..."

http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070123/COLUMNISTS09/701230318


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Some of the story that is missing (surprise, surprise from a newspaper ) is that period is for In-Service Training, something that is suppose to happen every year for different required training, for example court decisions etc where the explaination of the intent of a decision is normally done by an attorney who specializes in that field, Survival Tactics, Firearms etc., etc., etc.. Unfortunately the training which is suppose to happen yearly hasn't happened in 5 or 6 years years now. I hear all the complaining that enforcement should be the same in one place of the state as in the other, can't do that without training and having officers together to get the same training from the same individuals.

Also all the officers are not there for the whole week, half the officers half the week and the other half the second half of the week. Having been to a number of those sessions myself, Treetops (about 3 times), Sugarloaf and a few other resorts near Traverse, among other places. it is not all fun and games as the story would want one to believe. There is also not much of a discount for skiing which is paid for by the officer, not the state. Bottom line, got to have training and it ain't free to accomplish it. If anyone can obtain or offer the needed facilities for less I'm sure they would be very interested.


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Thanks boehr. I had to post this here so that you could give a personal accurate authority response. We know there will always be some knee-jerk anti DNR anti governmental spending comments from the public. In this case the M-S forum is fortunate to have you set the issue straight.


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## Frantz (Dec 9, 2003)

Knee jerk is right. People do have a very good reason to be concerned with the state of the state and then al this. My hats off to those who catch these things are happening. On the same note, when you catch it, look at it, and understand, or at least try to understand the value of what you/they are getting. Valuable training, networking with other members, the sharing of ideas and experience, those are all on top of the scheduled trainings.

Good bang for the buck from what I read. Everyone needs training. I would rather have a CO approach me and my weapon in the field with confidence and respect for the situation as well as a mutual respect, than come in half trained and nervous to the point of being an ****.

Good luck with your training and have some fun. There is something to be said for gaining even a tiny bit of moral!


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## Westlakedrive (Feb 25, 2005)

I think the other side of the coin is
Does that State of Michigan own any facillities big enough for this training to take place without having to rent someplace out? Its the SOM. Lansing is centrally located. If there is an with the UP have a UP session somwhere up there. 
In todays day and age there are probably very few companies out there (especially ones residing in this great stae) that would even think about something like this. Thats just not the way things are done TODAY. Maybe a few years ago but not now. 
Am I wrong?


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## JWICKLUND (Feb 13, 2005)

Yellow journalism at it's finest.


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## flinch (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't know what the big deal is. Attendance includes 206 officers, up to 36 others, plus supporting staff, let's just round it up to 250. At 75,000 total that is only $300.00 per employee and/or supporting staff/trainers for the training which I am assuming includes food, lodging, and facilities rental for the week. Sounds reasonable to me.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

Westlakedrive said:


> I think the other side of the coin is
> Does that State of Michigan own any facillities big enough for this training to take place without having to rent someplace out? Its the SOM. Lansing is centrally located. If there is an with the UP have a UP session somwhere up there.
> In todays day and age there are probably very few companies out there (especially ones residing in this great stae) that would even think about something like this. Thats just not the way things are done TODAY. Maybe a few years ago but not now.
> Am I wrong?


That is a good question and I can think of one near Lansing. Uh I think the State calls the Michigan State Police Academy. But also on the other hand. I know in the Federal System, if you are with a different agency and you are wanting to train at a federal training center. Like FBI wants to train at the USMarshalls training area. They have to rent that Training area from the Marshalls unless it is joint Training. Which is what it usually is. So it maybe cheaper for the DNR to rent a place from some one privately then to rent one from the state.


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## JWICKLUND (Feb 13, 2005)

Lansing isn't centrally located. You forget about us Yoopers. It is a 10 hour drive for me to get to Lansing. Traverse City is much more reasonable.
Also a check with the treetops website shows rooms from $50.00 to $80.00. So if we use the rationale from above at $75,000.00 and 250 employees each of whom will be there for 3 days. The average cost per person is very reasonable. Plus everyone can get the same training and updates at the same time. 
Last but not least, the Michigan State Police Training Facility is owned by the State but run by the Department of Management and Budget. If the DNR or any other agency uses it, they have to rent the building. Nothing is free anymore.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

The State Police Training Facility is where we training newly hired COs and it ends up costing the DNR more to use that facility than others but they have the needed and required equipment to have it there. When a location is chosen it is not by way of "it would be nice there, lets go there this time". There are many things taken into consideration, some mentioned as to the size and place that can handle the number of people getting the training but also cost is evaluated. Normally the cheapest place that can handle it is choosen, in this case Treetops. I suppose the DNR could have it at MSP and if it cost 25% or more higher than Treetops people wouldn't have a clue or an issue because "ski resort" wasn't attached to it.

Even the DNR RAM Center at Higgins Lake would cost the DNR more than $75,000 if they could handle the number but they can't.

Certain training is required yearly by MCOLES for certified police officers. Some of this required training will happen there. As stated before, training cost money that is not an option. Heck, enforcement of laws cost more money than will ever be finacially feasiable but the resources will benefit as will the people who utilize those resources.

And yes, that costs includes the rooms to hold the training, any equipment needed like TV's, VCRs, screens etc., the lodging and meals while at that location.


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## spice64 (Dec 1, 2004)

I dont Buy it, sorry You make it sound like they exhausted every effert to try and save every penny. B.S. I did most of My training in a garage a drill hall or gymnasium. We slept in bunks. The kind You might find at camp grayling. If thats good enough for our Military it should Be just fine for our c.o.'s. How does our military go about raising morale? The last I knew they didnt go to club Med. Asking for a huge increase in license fees and blowing it at a resort aint gonna cut it. "Yea thats how I see it" By the way look at look at all the occupations of the posters supporting this.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I was in the military too and it ain't the same. Ever been to Camp Grayling? And since you don't buy it do you know what the feds want $$ to use for Grayling. I checked into using Fort Custard just for firearm training for just 14 COs so I know what costs are like. Look at the occupations, what does that have to do with it? Like I said above, if you know of a better/cheaper way to accomplish all the training planned there is no doubt we would all like to hear it, including the DNR.


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## glnmiller (Jan 7, 2006)

I am not bashing here, but you would think they would find a location that would not give the perception that this is a fun and a games boondoggle. Common, a ski resort? I find it hard to believe ski resorts are offering their facilities at a discount during their peak season, but that may be the case I guess.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

Like I said in my first post, the DNR does not get to use the Police Accademy for free. I stated I was unsure of that. As I am federal and I know that when the federal LEA's hold training at other LEA's facilities we pay for the use of those facilities. That is why I stated, it might be cheaper for the DNR to pay a privately owned place to hold there training. Then paying another state agency. I would think that the DNR would think about getting a grant from the Fed. Gov. to build a training center of there own centrally located some where in the state to cut costs. The last time I checked being that this training is law enforcement and is a requirement they can apply for grants from the Federal Government. To either pay for this training or to build there own training facility.


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## bumpbottom (Jan 3, 2006)

Ski Lodge  ?????? Defend all you want the venue is Priceless and pretty much sums up where the priorities are:evilsmile .


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## theeyes (Mar 20, 2004)

If the DNR did rent a State owned facility and it cost about the same. The money would go back to the state, which I've heard needs the money almost as much as Tree Top does.


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## JWICKLUND (Feb 13, 2005)

Michigan DOES own a training facility for law enforcement officers. It is called the Michigan State Police Training Facility. The MSP does not own it anymore and it is one of the top training facilities in the nation. A lot of agencies rent and train at that facility, but it is not cheap. Don't be confused by the name and the big shield on the top of that building. The DNR is running their 3rd recruit school at the academy right now and having gone through the 2nd, I can tell you the facility is top notch and well run.

Also Boehr is correct. If this was held at a place that wasn't attached to a ski lodge, nobody would care. The paper makes it sound like the information was "leaked" out via a spy. Heck I have know about inservice since December. 

Finally, the 50 new officers joining the department since the last inservice in 2000 (not including all the new staff) have never met half the officers in the state. In service gives them an opportunity to put names to faces.


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## answerguy8 (Oct 15, 2001)

Could someone let me know when all the states COs will be tied up in the next meeting? I've got some things I'd like to do. :evil: (just kidding)

They need to meet somewhere and this is about as centrally located as any place could be. I have no doubt that if had been held at a Detroit area hotel or convention center it would have cost much more.


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## bumpbottom (Jan 3, 2006)

It is just hard to stomach when we (the state) are in an economic downturn and they turn to the sportsman for more money claiming that the budget is going to be absorbed and large deficiit resulting. No doubt with these unchecked types of spending habits! Sounds like they have this at a different resort everytime they have training (based on comments from this thread). Everybody else is tightening their belts except the people asking for more money.It is insult to injury when they comment on how the price to ski isn't even discounted. If they are "training" why would they care and how would they know .
There are more creative solutions. here are a couple: As a cubscout leader I oftened got permission to host cubscout events in the school gym for $0 dollars. Why not look into hosting those events in school auditoriums.
Instead of having everyone go to one facility and have to and pay for lodging and meals for everyone. Why not pay the cost for the few speakers to travel to 3 or 4 central locations where it is within driving distance each day for the people recieving training No lodging no meals (Oh and by the way no skiing). I know the answer already based on where they have these "training" events.
Identifying these alternatives is not that hard...... trying to justify a resort visit to hardworking intelligent taxpayers is.
It would seem if the MDNR or any State run department doesn't want to be scrutinized, these alternative should have been investigated first IMO rather than "tap dancing" to explain them later.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

When LEA's have training, it is like going to school. All the training I have been to is broken into classroom size groups. Yes there is going to be alot of people at this training at one time. I am not a DNR C.O. but I do work as a LEO. The reason why they don't ask to use a school auditorium. Is that is not pratical. Why did the skiing rates were brought up. They do not train 24hours a day until they get all the training they need and then go back where they came from. They may go to training classes for 6 hours or 8 hours a day. Then they are off until the next day. There for with outdoor activities they can relax and enjoy themselves a little bit. These are hard working under paid people. The skiing and recreational activities are not paid for by the DNR. The Officers will have to pay for them out of there own pockets. That is if they even have enough time to relax and enjoy activities like this. Also being at a place where the training, housing, meals are held at one place helps out as well as the Officers do not have to leave the place at all. They can stay right there have some recreational activities, get there training, have a place to sleep, and a place to eat. This is kinda like being in the military and being sent for training. I believe that the reason why the ski rates are not discounted would be an ethics issue. As I do not work for the DNR there for I do not know what the DNR's code of ethics is. But as for the agency I work for I can not accept any discounts unless the discount is offered to all Federal Employee's. I hope I have cleared this up a bit.


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