# habituated wolves



## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

http://www.outdoorhub.com/opinions/...ican-wolves-interview-with-dr-valerius-geist/

Dr. Geist and an internationally recognized wildlife authority.


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> http://www.outdoorhub.com/opinions/...ican-wolves-interview-with-dr-valerius-geist/
> 
> Dr. Geist and an internationally recognized wildlife authority.


They are no different than any other large predator in that if you do not hunt them when prey is scarce they will hunt you eventually .They are rapidly eliminating their main prey in Michigans U P and will in all probability start doing what is stated in the article in the future they have to eat .They have to be controlled now .We keep hearing there is no evidence of wolves killing humans but we don't know what starving wolves will do .I think we will find out soon .


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Thirty pointer said:


> We keep hearing there is no evidence of wolves killing humans but we don't know what starving wolves will do .I think we will find out soon .


Obviously who ever says they dont kill people have never seen the documentary, The Gray, staring Liam Nesson. Good stuff in that documentary.


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## brigeton (Feb 12, 2004)

That is a movie not a documentary. It's from Hollywood where they can curve bullets and kung fu experts can fly.


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## rollin stone (Dec 31, 2011)

Good article. They need to be hunted. Taught fear and not be coddled. Before we are the hunted.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

Great article.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

bowhunter426 said:


> Obviously who ever says they dont kill people have never seen the documentary, The Gray, staring Liam Nesson. Good stuff in that documentary.


Decent movie, but you used the word "documentary" twice. How is that possible ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grey_(film)

R.C., thanks for posting.

L & O


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Liver and Onions said:


> Decent movie, but you used the word "documentary" twice. How is that possible ?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grey_(film)
> 
> ...


Obviously sarcasm is not well conveyed thru text posted on the interwebs. I guess the moral of this story is to always raid the mini bar so you have mini glass bottles to tape to you hands when walking around the UP


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

bowhunter426 said:


> Obviously sarcasm is not well conveyed thru text posted on the interwebs. .............


Got it. My mistake.

L & O


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## coyote wacker (Dec 25, 2015)

I have a home in the Eastern UP in 2012 there was a single wolf that would walk between my barn and house 50' away. If my wife's 2 Jack Russell's got to barking the wolf would show up on the field edge even walk in to the yard at 10 in the morning. Yelling would only get it to move a short distance. I fenced in a 40' x 30 ' area so we could let the dogs out while we watched them with a 12 ga. loaded with OO buck shot. This went on for several months and several calls to the DNR with no help. After taking pictures, I was given 3 12 gauge cracker shells and a permit to try to scare the wolf off. That didn't work the wolf would run a short distance and look back. In August and September I had several pictures of the wolf coming to a bear bait over a mile from the house, even had it come in while a bear was at the bait. I never use meat of any kind, just fruit, vegetables, grain and granola and donuts it liked donuts, bait was put in a 55 gallon drum chain to a tree with a 10" hole in the side. Even had it come in on my deer blinds while I was hunting and deer at the feeder, twice there was tracks walking around my blind 5' away. 

This went on from May to February then it wasn't see around again.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

coyote wacker said:


> I have a home in the Eastern UP in 2012 there was a single wolf that would walk between my barn and house 50' away. If my wife's 2 Jack Russell's got to barking the wolf would show up on the field edge even walk in to the yard at 10 in the morning. Yelling would only get it to move a short distance. I fenced in a 40' x 30 ' area so we could let the dogs out while we watched them with a 12 ga. loaded with OO buck shot. This went on for several months and several calls to the DNR with no help. After taking pictures, I was given 3 12 gauge cracker shells and a permit to try to scare the wolf off. That didn't work the wolf would run a short distance and look back. In August and September I had several pictures of the wolf coming to a bear bait over a mile from the house, even had it come in while a bear was at the bait. I never use meat of any kind, just fruit, vegetables, grain and granola and donuts it liked donuts, bait was put in a 55 gallon drum chain to a tree with a 10" hole in the side. Even had it come in on my deer blinds while I was hunting and deer at the feeder, twice there was tracks walking around my blind 5' away.
> 
> This went on from May to February then it wasn't see around again.


We had one like that around our camp years ago. It followed me twice, the second time I fired a pistol shot over its head and it took off. It never got within 75 yards of me though. When it followed a neighbor down the road a little too closely he said, "it's gone." I also saw a young coyote and a fox family that were so used to handouts that they would come right up to people. Two years ago my wife had a couple wolves sneak up on her while she was walking back to dark in low light conditions. They got within 20 yards of her before she saw them and fired a shot to scare them off. I did report that one to the DNR and they filled out a form and that was the last I heard of it, so it is legal to shoot your gun to scare off wolves as long as you don't hit them.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

coyote wacker said:


> I have a home in the Eastern UP in 2012 there was a single wolf that would walk between my barn and house 50' away. If my wife's 2 Jack Russell's got to barking the wolf would show up on the field edge even walk in to the yard at 10 in the morning. Yelling would only get it to move a short distance. I fenced in a 40' x 30 ' area so we could let the dogs out while we watched them with a 12 ga. loaded with OO buck shot. This went on for several months and several calls to the DNR with no help. After taking pictures, I was given 3 12 gauge cracker shells and a permit to try to scare the wolf off. That didn't work the wolf would run a short distance and look back. In August and September I had several pictures of the wolf coming to a bear bait over a mile from the house, even had it come in while a bear was at the bait. I never use meat of any kind, just fruit, vegetables, grain and granola and donuts it liked donuts, bait was put in a 55 gallon drum chain to a tree with a 10" hole in the side. Even had it come in on my deer blinds while I was hunting and deer at the feeder, twice there was tracks walking around my blind 5' away.
> 
> This went on from May to February then it wasn't see around again.


I would guess from my experience that it was a young bachelor that was kicked out of the pack. Had one close here that played with the neighbors german sheperd.


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## coyote wacker (Dec 25, 2015)

Trophy Specialist said:


> We had one like that around our camp years ago. It followed me twice, the second time I fired a pistol shot over its head and it took off. It never got within 75 yards of me though. When it followed a neighbor down the road a little too closely he said, "it's gone." I also saw a young coyote and a fox family that were so used to handouts that they would come right up to people. Two years ago my wife had a couple wolves sneak up on her while she was walking back to dark in low light conditions. They got within 20 yards of her before she saw them and fired a shot to scare them off. I did report that one to the DNR and they filled out a form and that was the last I heard of it, so it is legal to shoot your gun to scare off wolves as long as you don't hit them.


It's not legal to fire a shot to scare a wolf or any Endangered or Threatened Species, it's a Federal Offense.

It's wildlife harassment.......I don't agree but a CO might not...... 

Would be no different than firing a shot in the air at a bald eagle thats in a tree in your back yard watching FIFI the poodle, in the eyes of the law.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

coyote wacker said:


> It's not legal to fire a shot to scare a wolf or any Endangered or Threatened Species, it's a Federal Offense.
> 
> It's wildlife harassment.......I don't agree but a CO might not......
> 
> Would be no different than firing a shot in the air at a bald eagle thats in a tree in your back yard watching FIFI the poodle, in the eyes of the law.


 I call BS on this one. Give me an example where a person was convicted of harrasment by the feds for scaring an attacking animal with noise. Doesn't matter if you are using clapping hands, whistle, airhorn, or shotgun blast all are legal defense tactics. If you are in an area where it is legal to discharge a firearm and you are not pointing in the direction of a protected animal you are doing nothing wrong. Write me a ticket and I would easily fight that one. 

Harassment charges come into play for things like molesting, chaising, disturbing nests/dens etc. Legal Discharge of firearm in the vicinity won't qualify.

There have been examples where dnr has given shotgun blanks to people with wolf issues to try to use noise to scare them off....your harrasment theory would apply in those instances if it were valid


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

coyote wacker said:


> It's not legal to fire a shot to scare a wolf or any Endangered or Threatened Species, it's a Federal Offense.
> 
> It's wildlife harassment.......I don't agree but a CO might not......
> 
> Would be no different than firing a shot in the air at a bald eagle thats in a tree in your back yard watching FIFI the poodle, in the eyes of the law.


I call double BS. As I stated, I reported the incident to the DNR and did not get any warnings or anything. Had she not scared them off with a blast, then they may have advanced further and been shot and killed or wounded. What would be worse for the wolves?


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

MDNR is on record stating that the only thing you can do is shoot over it to scare it off.


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## coyote wacker (Dec 25, 2015)

DirtySteve said:


> I call BS on this one. Give me an example where a person was convicted of harrasment by the feds for scaring an attacking animal with noise. Doesn't matter if you are using clapping hands, whistle, airhorn, or shotgun blast all are legal defense tactics. If you are in an area where it is legal to discharge a firearm and you are not pointing in the direction of a protected animal you are doing nothing wrong. Write me a ticket and I would easily fight that one.
> 
> Harassment charges come into play for things like molesting, chaising, disturbing nests/dens etc. Legal Discharge of firearm in the vicinity won't qualify.
> 
> There have been examples where dnr has given shotgun blanks to people with wolf issues to try to use noise to scare them off....your harrasment theory would apply in those instances if it were valid





Trophy Specialist said:


> I call double BS. As I stated, I reported the incident to the DNR and did not get any warnings or anything. Had she not scared them off with a blast, then they may have advanced further and been shot and killed or wounded. What would be worse for the wolves?


I'am not trying to start a argument...myself I would never admit on a public forum or even send a text message, that I shot in the air to scare a wolf or any Endangered Species a way....sort of a Shoot and Shut Up type thing....a story among close friends...

Whistles, horns or clapping hands are a lot different than a gun blast, a gun with projectile ammo can be is lethal. If you using blanks or cracker shells your intentions or clear. Discharge of a gun with a projectile changes it. 

This is copied from: 
Endangered Species Act (ESA), In the federal statute, the term “harass” is defined as "an intentional or negligent act or omission which creates the likelihood of injury to wildlife by annoying it to such an extent as to significantly disrupt normal behavioral patterns which include, but are not limited to, breeding, feeding, or sheltering.”

You can interpret the law how you see fit, a DNR officer will do the same, the prosecuting attorney will do the same. I doubt a DNR officer would issue a ticket. 

I'am going to say I have first hand knowledge of a person that shot at and admitted to a Sargent and a field officer in the UP that they shot at in several incidence wolves. They were given a warning about using ammo and supplied with cracker shells and a filed a incident permit. Being told that the state is obligated to enforce the ESA even tho they don't agree with the polices, of the federal government.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I just finished setting a tip up just prior to daylight a couple of weeks ago stood up and about 75 feet away one was watching me through a small clearing in the woods. No hand gun but an auger would work if necessary, Next year it will be a handgun and if I have to fire it will be a lethal shot. I_ consider about 25 feet the point of no return_


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## HUBBHUNTER (Aug 8, 2007)

Don't be a ***** and just take care of the problem when you feel threatened and keep your mouth shut. Man, some of you guys need to stay in the city.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Robert Holmes said:


> I just finished setting a tip up just prior to daylight a couple of weeks ago stood up and about 75 feet away one was watching me through a small clearing in the woods. No hand gun but an auger would work if necessary, Next year it will be a handgun and if I have to fire it will be a lethal shot. I_ consider about 25 feet the point of no return_


You must be a wolf magnet Robert. No matter where you travel, UP or NLP, you come on here and tell us about your latest wolf encounter.

L & O


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Just heard on the scanner that the trail groomer just reported a wolf whacked by a bubble head on trail 1 at the Ontonagon-Gogebic County line. I imagine 11-21 is headed there now.


I hope the driver is OK.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Just heard on the scanner that the trail groomer just reported a wolf whacked by a bubble head on trail 1 at the Ontonagon-Gogebic County line. I imagine 11-21 is headed there now.


That would hurt. Hope that the driver did not get injured. The bonus is that there is one less wolf, I am sure that the locals will give it a good funeral.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Just heard on the scanner that the trail groomer just reported a wolf whacked by a bubble head on trail 1 at the Ontonagon-Gogebic County line. I imagine 11-21 is headed there now.


Good one less.


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

I wonder why the trail hit is news? Just toss the carcass in the tag alders and ride away. 

Here's some recent news from Duluth.

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/3945036-dog-killed-suspected-wolf-attack-near-brighton-beach


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

People become creatures of habit and walk their dogs in the same places at the same time of day on a regular basis. Wolves are creatures that will take advantage of an opportunity. Prior to attacking a dog they may have watched it walk in the same area multiple times at about the same time of day. That makes it easy for the wolf to return to the area and distract the dog or lie in wait for the ideal opportunity.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Robert Holmes said:


> People become creatures of habit and walk their dogs in the same places at the same time of day on a regular basis. Wolves are creatures that will take advantage of an opportunity. Prior to attacking a dog they may have watched it walk in the same area multiple times at about the same time of day. That makes it easy for the wolf to return to the area and distract the dog or lie in wait for the ideal opportunity.


That's a fact! I walk mine on the trail going to one of the waterfalls here. If no one is parked in the lot I let her off her leash but I trained her to only go ahead a little then stop and wait for me or I tell her to go a little further. If I can't see ahead then I tell her to stay next to me. The major deer yard is just a mile North so I always am scanning the trees.
the dog getting killed by a wolf in Duluth was because the idiot let his dog roam for ten minutes. He was so far away he didn't even hear his dog getting munched in half. Same goes for the people that bi$ch all the time about their dog getting caught in a foot hold. Well, keep your d%$m dog under your control at all times and maybe it wouldn't happen 99% of the time.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't even take my dog in the woods anymore he is older and anything but wiser. He would become a wolf milk bone in a minute.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Robert Holmes said:


> I don't even take my dog in the woods anymore he is older and anything but wiser. He would become a wolf milk bone in a minute.


If only we could control their numbers so people could walk again.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I can't imagine having the wolf population that the western UP has. We have a fair share of wolves in the EUP and I have had several people tell me stories of them being sighted in the smaller towns around the area. It is just a matter of time and it won't just be dogs that are being attacked.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Robert Holmes said:


> I can't imagine having the wolf population that the western UP has. We have a fair share of wolves in the EUP and I have had several people tell me stories of them being sighted in the smaller towns around the area. It is just a matter of time and it won't just be dogs that are being attacked.


I started seeing them in '98. They started killing cows in 2001 and then I started seeing them [wolves] die in 2005. Then by 2011 I watched over 30 get killed. I killed a couple with the permits after that. A friend of mine killed 9 from his farm. They are nothing but vermin. I probably have almost 100 different wolves on trail cams and my canon digital camera.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> I started seeing them in '98. They started killing cows in 2001 and then I started seeing them [wolves] die in 2005. Then by 2011 I watched over 30 get killed. I killed a couple with the permits after that. A friend of mine killed 9 from his farm. They are nothing but vermin. I probably have almost 100 different wolves on trail cams and my canon digital camera.



What do you do with cattle that die from natural causes on your farm?


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Cork Dust said:


> What do you do with cattle that die from natural causes on your farm?


Put them in the freezer.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Put them in the freezer.


Even if they die due to illness?


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Cork Dust said:


> Even if they die due to illness?


They go in a hole in the ground after the vet looks at them. Why? You an undercover HSUS wolf hunter hater or something?


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> They go in a hole in the ground after the vet looks at them. Why? You an undercover HSUS wolf hunter hater or something?


Quite a prickly response to a straightforward question....


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## rollin stone (Dec 31, 2011)

Cork Dust said:


> Quite a prickly response to a straightforward question....



Just answer the question. Hit to close to home?


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Cork Dust said:


> Quite a prickly response to a straightforward question....


Looking at all your posts here they have that 'I'm a know it all' smell to them, was all.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Liver and Onions said:


> You must be a wolf magnet Robert. No matter where you travel, UP or NLP, you come on here and tell us about your latest wolf encounter.
> 
> L & O


My neighbors here in suburbia thought I was a bit touched when I was talking about all the coyotes I was seeing around. Till cats and dogs were disappearing and I had coyotes on trail cams carrying pets down the street. 
More than every once in a while I find myself pointing out wildlife to other " outdoors people" who never noticed it. Some of us are just a lot more aware of and better able to recognize things than others. That doesn't mean that we are magnets. I am sure other people have the same animals in their close proximity, but are unaware of it.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Looking at all your posts here they have that 'I'm a know it all' smell to them, was all.


No, I am just a retired biologist who believes in the value of accumulated evidence prior making broad subjective statements regarding the cause and effect of animal X, Y, or Z's interactions with Man. I find great value in the old woodsman's saying: "You have to know what the woods look like to recognize the unusual..."

That's the spirit, attack the individual poster and attempt to redirect the discussion. Do you concede the potential to markedly influence wolf behavior i.e. attracting wolves to farm sites where livestock are being dumped onsite? Please remember that, even though buried, wolves can detect a dead cow...easily.

What the researchers from Mississippi State found over the course of the Phase I deer predation study in the low snowfall area was that the two wolf packs in the research area fed routinely, particularly during pup rearing intervals, on livestock carcasses at nine different dump sites on surrounding agricultural lands. Mr. Beyers, MDNR biologist providing oversight of the research found that up to 20% of their total calories were derived from these sites. 

Have I had encounters with wolves? Yes. Have these been frequent? No, only on three occasions have I been face-to-face with wolves. Do I spend a great deal of time worrying about wolves attacking or eating my hunting dogs when I am out grouse hunting or walking through the woods? No, I avoid habitat that wolves den at in spring/summer. Do I frequently see fresh wolf sign? Yes, dependent on the season of the year and habitat I am moving around in. Have I seen wolves near my home? Yes, approximately a mile form my home on nearby State land I walk around on.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

ESOX said:


> My neighbors here in suburbia thought I was a bit touched when I was talking about all the coyotes I was seeing around. Till cats and dogs were disappearing and I had coyotes on trail cams carrying pets down the street.
> More than every once in a while I find myself pointing out wildlife to other " outdoors people" who never noticed it. Some of us are just a lot more aware of and better able to recognize things than others. That doesn't mean that we are magnets. I am sure other people have the same animals in their close proximity, but are unaware of it.



You put your trail cams in the street?


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Lol not IN the street. But on trees near it. Security cams also frequently pick up suburban and city wildlife. Like the doe and two fawns we had living behind the back warehouse near 8 mile and Southfield. People would never believe it without pics. Lol.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Cork Dust said:


> No, I am just a retired biologist who believes in the value of accumulated evidence prior making broad subjective statements regarding the cause and effect of animal X, Y, or Z's interactions with Man. I find great value in the old woodsman's saying: "You have to know what the woods look like to recognize the unusual..."
> 
> That's the spirit, attack the individual poster and attempt to redirect the discussion. Do you concede the potential to markedly influence wolf behavior i.e. attracting wolves to farm sites where livestock are being dumped onsite? Please remember that, even though buried, wolves can detect a dead cow...easily.
> 
> ...


Well good for you. Isn't that nice. So you assume all other people are like in study 1? We do the best we can, even though people like you think otherwise. Good luck with your fish.


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## eyeball (Dec 23, 2011)

Cork Dust said:


> No, I am just a retired biologist who believes in the value of accumulated evidence prior making broad subjective statements regarding the cause and effect of animal X, Y, or Z's interactions with Man. I find great value in the old woodsman's saying: "You have to know what the woods look like to recognize the unusual..."
> 
> That's the spirit, attack the individual poster and attempt to redirect the discussion. Do you concede the potential to markedly influence wolf behavior i.e. attracting wolves to farm sites where livestock are being dumped onsite? Please remember that, even though buried, wolves can detect a dead cow...easily.
> 
> ...


So no burying dead cows on the farm? Really? What should be the protocol, ship them south of the bridge?


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

eyeball said:


> So no burying dead cows on the farm? Really? What should be the protocol, ship them south of the bridge?


The state has made it easy.
http://www.michigan.gov/mdard/0,4610,7-125-48096_48404---,00.html


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Well good for you. Isn't that nice. So you assume all other people are like in study 1? We do the best we can, even though people like you think otherwise. Good luck with your fish.


You do what you do, whether it is "the best we can", is the point of this discussion. Like any other predator, wolves do what they do as well.

What was the significance of wolves visiting livestock carcass dump sites in Phase I of the whitetail predator-prey study? These supplemental food sources likely masked the role wolves played as a deer predator in the low snowfall tier. Essentially, these farmers skewed the data, damaging your cause and ancillary arguments. Preliminary data from the Phase II tier indicate wolves play a more significant role in adult deer mortality.

You complain consistently about the "plague" of wolves descended on you, yet your actions significantly influence that outcome. Do you recall Einstein's definition of insanity? Doing the same thing, over and over, while continuing to expect a different outcome. Where we differ is that I have no interest in shouting at the rain. I changed my hunting habits during deer season and grouse season to account for the reality that wolves exist on the landscape of the U.P.; as well as the high likelihood that they will continue to exist throughout the U.P. for many years to come.

Actually, my bachelor's degree was in Fisheries and Wildlife, with a wildlife emphasis;same degree a Fish and Game entry level biologist would hold in any agency.

If you possess the ability to turn back time, by all means share that expertise with the rest of us!


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

I am having trouble understanding your points corkdust. You have said that a farmer who properly or improperly disposes of livestock on his property attracts wolves to his farm from what I have read. This somehow skews the results of the predation study in the farming area. Wouldn't this point out the exact issues with wolves in farming communities? It seems to me it wouldn't skew the results it is showing exactly what happens when wolves enter the landscape.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Cork Dust said:


> You do what you do, whether it is "the best we can", is the point of this discussion. Like any other predator, wolves do what they do as well.
> 
> What was the significance of wolves visiting livestock carcass dump sites in Phase I of the whitetail predator-prey study? These supplemental food sources likely masked the role wolves played as a deer predator in the low snowfall tier. Essentially, these farmers skewed the data, damaging your cause and ancillary arguments. Preliminary data from the Phase II tier indicate wolves play a more significant role in adult deer mortality.
> 
> ...


Well, again good for you. So, in your vague ignorance you are adding all farmers to be like a minority of phase 1 farmers? You haven't the slightest clue what myself or others have done. You count your fishies and keep staring at that framed bachelors degree hanging on your wall and us dumb farmers will keep farming the best that we know how to with what we have to work with.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DirtySteve said:


> I am having trouble understanding your points corkdust. You have said that a farmer who properly or improperly disposes of livestock on his property attracts wolves to his farm from what I have read. This somehow skews the results of the predation study in the farming area. Wouldn't this point out the exact issues with wolves in farming communities? It seems to me it wouldn't skew the results it is showing exactly what happens when wolves enter the landscape.


The study is directed at determining annual and seasonal predation rates on fawns and adult whitetails in three tiers of annual snowfall depth values, with focus on enumerating and ranking those predators that have an annual and seasonally marked impact on the two components of whitetail deer herd population increase;fawn survival and adult doe physiologic condition and survival. If a wolf pack is able to receive supplemental calories from eating dead domestic livestock, particularly during their annual pup rearing interval,their consumption rate of wild game is altered (diminished from what it woud likely be), skewing the data as it relates to wolf induced deer mortality for both fawns and does..

Earlier in this thread there was a statement regarding wolf population estimate values. The poster made a point of noting that the MDNR "official" wolf population estimate was a fall value, also implying that this was intentionally low. He also went on to state that the "real" value was up over 1,000 animals (I recall somewhere around 1,200 animals) per statements made by MDNR personnel at this meeting. What he opted to leave out is that this "real" estimate was a spring , post pup drop estimate value. In wolf packs that exist in non-agricultural areas, without livestock kill or scavenging calorie supplementation, well over half their spring pup litters are lost via mortality in the first year of life. The other point left out of this is that Pups don't hunt, so the component of the population that wildlife managers focus on quantifiying is that component that is directly involved in predation. MTU researchers have multi-year population dynamics data on four wolf packs located at the base of the Keweenaw peninsula, much of it published. This is where I used to have a deer camp. After a discussion with John Ozoga post-winter of 1996, I made the decision to get rid of it and hunt on a more mobile basis. One of the interesting findings of one of these studies was that smaller wolf packs actually had to kill more prey on a annual basis due to post-kill losses to an array of scavenger species, both avian and mammal, including other canids. Basically, they couldn't defend their kill sites to derive full benefit from the dead prey, consequently having to kill more animals to compensate for loses due to scavengers.

For ANY predator, every encounter it has with a potential prey item does not result in a kill. As a predator, a variety of time-steps, with associated energy expenditure values occur prior consumption of a prey item. They or it has to find suitable prey on the landscape, capture that prey item, and kill the prey and begin feeding, prior deriving any calorie "reward" for the energy expended in search, capture, and prey handling. Now, let's stick a ready source of calories in a pile with some dirt over it.. Search, capture, and prey handling are now roughly constant values, with a ready non-moving high calorie food source sitting on the landscape at fixed locations. 

Where do you think these wolves will set-up "shop"? What direction do you think the local wolf pack'(s)' annual survival rate and numeric size will trend in?

IF I were farming livestock in a high wolf density area, I sure wouldn't dispose of animals that died due to illness via onsite burial. There are other viable alternative avenues available. And, I sure wouldn't continually bitch about habituation of wolves in my area when I had an active hand in nudging the local pack(s) along that road.

Are any of the folks reading this thread aware that guard animals have been offered to high wolf predation
farm sites that are losing livestock? Are any of you aware that both the Farm Bureau and Safari Club International provide compensation to farmers who have lost livestock to wolf predation? Just curious.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

So why do you think the study included a region of farm area with lower wolf density? Do you think they wanted the predation results "skewed" as you put it? I would think there is a purpose for understanding how predation is different in farming areas. It seems to me the study shows that wolves are really the vermin that they are perceived to be in my opinion. 

There have been many threads on this site discussing the solutions that have been tried for farmers. Particularly the guard animals that you mentioned. The guard animals seemed to have failed in most cases. The UP is a much different landscape than other areas of the country where there has been some success.

The scenario you gave of changing your hunting habits is completely different than expecting a farmer to change his livelihood. It isn't like a farmer can uproot his life and leave as you left your hunting ground. My farming friends are some of the most industrious hard working people I know. Expecting them to endure the costs of changing their practices without complaint is unrealistic. Many of them can't afford it.

Your flippant attitude towards farmers with wolf issues is easily perceived as offensive.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DirtySteve said:


> So why do you think the study included a region of farm area with lower wolf density? Do you think they wanted the predation results "skewed" as you put it? I would think there is a purpose for understanding how predation is different in farming areas. It seems to me the study shows that wolves are really the vermin that they are perceived to be in my opinion.
> 
> There have been many threads on this site discussing the solutions that have been tried for farmers. Particularly the guard animals that you mentioned. The guard animals seemed to have failed in most cases. The UP is a much different landscape than other areas of the country where there has been some success.
> 
> ...


 I note our discourse finally arrived at your underlying motivation and thesis regarding the "value" of wolves on the landscape. A couple questions: How does your perspective or opinion impact the reality that they are here in the U.P., and are very likely to remain here? How does it alter the reality that the Federal government has determined that these animals receive special protections, now and through time? How does it alter or beneficially impact the likely course of wolf population management through time, even if that responsibility is returned to the State of Michigan? 

Which one of us is behaving in an offensive manner? 

None of the Mississippi State Univ. and MDNR folks who scribed the research site for the Tier I study were aware of what the existing wolf packs were feeding on. I encourage you to access the Mississippi State University website and read the rationale they put forth for siting the study Phases, rather than requesting my interpretation of their rationale or motives. You also might want to read how they characterized these sites in their findings...

Where did I advocate that any farmer in the U.P. alter how they earned their livelihood? Please share that statement with me? II am from a family that contains five generations of farmers, with three of those farms still up and running. You engage in quite a broad and sweeping condemnation based on no evidence. I stated that disposal onsite of animal carcasses was detrimental to an overall claim and continued contention that wolf numbers were too high and threatening Public safety in this area.

Apparently, my statements regarding compensation for wolf depredation were lost on you...or simply ignored since they were inconvenient with regard to your overall contention and premise. 

You actually have to use the guard animals to have them work. I won't share that story...as they say, the Devil is always in the details. When that MDNR wildlife biologist repeated it to me, he just shook his head.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

I believe you made the suggestion that a farmer should go through the trouble of removing a a carcass instead of burying in it on site. they may have previously done this without issue before wolves arrived. You made the comment that continuing to do the same practices without change was sign of insanity didn't you? You went as far as to tell us you yourself changed your habits to the extent that you sold your camp because of wolves. If you were not insinuating a farmer change his practices what was your point? Maybe I missed it. 

I am saying there is a huge difference in changing your hunting activities and a farmer changing their practices that affect their livelihood. I am not saying that you did. Your comments allude to that though. 

When it comes to missing points I think you are missing mine. The study being held in the farming area shows how wolves are a detriment to farmers and their habits change in a farming area. It doesn't show that farmers change the habits of a wolf. It doesn't matter if the wolves are feeding on carcass piles, buried carcasses, cows giving berth or any other livestock.....their predation habits change in a farming area. If the biologists weren't interested in seeing that "skew" their data as you put it maybe they should have been intelligent enough to find an area void of farming practices. There is plenty of history with wolves and farms before this study.

As for the rest of your comments I have been on your side of the argument many times over the past yr. I have had battles with many on here over wolf population numbers and predation facts. I have also stated many times on here that wolves are only a small part of the issue with the cause of the deer herd decline.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

QUOTE="DirtySteve, post: 5803830, member: 18512"]I am having trouble understanding your points corkdust. You have said that a farmer who properly or improperly disposes of livestock on his property attracts wolves to his farm from what I have read. This somehow skews the results of the predation study in the farming area. Wouldn't this point out the exact issues with wolves in farming communities? It seems to me it wouldn't skew the results it is showing exactly what happens when wolves enter the landscape.[/QUOTE]


DirtySteve said:


> So why do you think the study included a region of farm area with lower wolf density? Do you think they wanted the predation results "skewed" as you put it? I would think there is a purpose for understanding how predation is different in farming areas. It seems to me the study shows that wolves are really the vermin that they are perceived to be in my opinion.
> 
> There have been many threads on this site discussing the solutions that have been tried for farmers. Particularly the guard animals that you mentioned. The guard animals seemed to have failed in most cases. The UP is a much different landscape than other areas of the country where there has been some success.
> 
> ...


Don't tell him about the Greenland farm that did everything right according to his philosophy and they still killed a dozen wolves after they killed many calves and livestock. Anybody can ask Rhoel about how successful they have been with non lethal implementations. They won't like the answer they will get back from him about how good they worked, if at all.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Guard dogs and donkeys are dropping likes flies out West. They don't stand a chance. Why take compensation when we have people criticizing that farms don't deserve it or are called welfare ranchers.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Cork Dust said:


> I am from a family that contains five generations of farmers, with three of those farms still up and running.


Let me guess. None are in the UP around wolves.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DirtySteve said:


> I believe you made the suggestion that a farmer should go through the trouble of removing a a carcass instead of burying in it on site. they may have previously done this without issue before wolves arrived. You made the comment that continuing to do the same practices without change was sign of insanity didn't you? You went as far as to tell us you yourself changed your habits to the extent that you sold your camp because of wolves. If you were not insinuating a farmer change his practices what was your point? Maybe I missed it.
> 
> I am saying there is a huge difference in changing your hunting activities and a farmer changing their practices that affect their livelihood. I am not saying that you did. Your comments allude to that though.
> 
> ...


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Guard dogs and donkeys are dropping likes flies out West. They don't stand a chance. Why take compensation when we have people criticizing that farms don't deserve it or are called welfare ranchers.


Thank you, now I better understand why you feel it is good logic to continue to bury dead livestock on site on your farm. 

You do understand that farming is actually a business, with the broad goal of turning a profit annually?


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Cork Dust said:


> Thank you, now I better understand why you feel it is good logic to continue to bury dead livestock on site on your farm.
> 
> You do understand that farming is actually a business, with the broad goal of turning a profit annually?


Well thank you for being concerned about my profits. Last I remembered it was none of your business what farmers do, didn't or don't do. According to your opinion we can't bury people anymore. They attract wolves in neighborhoods. It's dangerous for people that live there. Maybe we can put them in landfills or ship dead people over 1,000 miles to have them rendered. Because it's all about the profits.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

DirtySteve said:


> You put your trail cams in the street?


In suburbia they don't have a big choice.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I would like to know how people avoid hunting in areas with wolves. I thought it was possible to do just that at one time. Every year I seem to find more and more wolf sign in places where I hunt and fish. As much as they travel sure you can find a spot with no sign in it for a day or a week but sooner or later they will be there. If your timing is off your dog becomes a milk bone.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

I didn't sail by your comments about winter severity. I agree 100% with everything you have stated there. I think I stated that I agree with the rest of your comments. I am only pointing out that your attitude towards farmers issues stinks.

When I read your link for the predator study again it really makes me wonder how you think farmers and carcasses skew the data? Why don't you get the fact that farmers exist and they are part of the landscape? You act like farmers are the issue here and they need to change their practices. When I read the results of the study I get a completely different view than you. I read it as wolves are a bigger issue to farmers than I realized. You seem to read it as farmers are messing up a study. The data is what it is. There is nothing skewed about it. I don't think farmers are idiots or insane for wanting to live their lives as they have.

Wolves are vermin by definition. That is a fact. They aren't really any different than coyotes, skunks, opossum etc... that we are allowed to exterminate when they interfere with our daily lives. The main difference is they are more powerful than a coyote with larger appetites. Our federal govt spent 145 yrs exterminating them and they did a fine job. Now because we have a generation of people that didn't have to deal with them people want to see a comeback.....as long as it isn't in their neghborhood.

If you fear booby trapped grow operations stay out of SLP....
I would stick to the UP.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Cork Dust first of all I like your postings on fish and wildlife so I am not putting you down. I don't think that the farmers in the UP are going to change their habits because HSUS, USDA, USFWS, and the DNR want hundreds or thousands of wolves to roam the UP. If they have butchered or dead livestock they haul it off and dump it. Yes it may mess up the different studies that different collages are doing but so what. Most people in the UP don't care to exist with 1000 wolves just so a bunch of college kids can do a thesis on them. I believe it is entirely possible for the Mississippi State students to do a thesis on how many Asian Carp that the alligators eat. After all it is a little closer to home for them. It is these stupid predator - prey studies that prevent Michigan from having proper wolf management. Face it sooner than you may think the whole predator prey relationship in the UP may collapse and so will all of the studies and thesis papers.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> QUOTE="DirtySteve, post: 5803830, member: 18512"]I am having trouble understanding your points corkdust. You have said that a farmer who properly or improperly disposes of livestock on his property attracts wolves to his farm from what I have read. This somehow skews the results of the predation study in the farming area. Wouldn't this point out the exact issues with wolves in farming communities? It seems to me it wouldn't skew the results it is showing exactly what happens when wolves enter the landscape.


Don't tell him about the Greenland farm that did everything right according to his philosophy and they still killed a dozen wolves after they killed many calves and livestock. Anybody can ask Rhoel about how successful they have been with non lethal implementations. They won't like the answer they will get back from him about how good they worked, if at all.[/QUOTE]


Here is why we differ in our perspectives on wolves and farming site. 
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Deer_Wintering_HoughtonS_475768_7.pdf

Now, find Greenland Twsp. Why do you think this farm is having so many depredation issues with wolves? Yes,they farmer is doing everything "right", as you state.
Hint: Four wolf packs have formed over time in this area. They remain there on an annual basis.

Now, the source of our different perspectives. You cite this farm as prototypic of all wolf behavior around agricultural sites and human activity foci. Every biologist I have talked to views this as a "Perfect Storm" scenario where several packs of wolves have formed within a relatively small geographic area, with whitetail deer and livestock as food sources. Not all members of these four packs feed on livestock. 

I know this country quite well. IF we ever get another wolf hunting season again in the U.P., this is where I am going to apply for a tag. 

The wolf protection folks raise hell about sport hunting because they advance the argument that sport hunting induced motality has the POTENTIAL to disrupt a wolf pack's social hierarchy structure, causing the pack to disintegrate (this is totally theoretical), again with the potential of pack members experiencing mortality from malnutrition. I have never found any study that supports this claim. Additionally, the MDNR focused their permits on this area with the background hope that the hunt mortality rate would be high enough to cause these packs to restructure. With the number of winter kill deer (mostly fawns with some adults) that "pop" out of the snow each spring, there is very likelihood of massive malnutrition occurring due to social structure alteration post-wolf hunt. 

But, without a hunt that includes a trapping component, wolf mortality will likely fall well below management goal. 

Simply look at Wolf Kill statistics stratified by mortality type from their hunts for my rationale in advocating for a wolf trapping component, which Could be more pack specific, particularly in this area.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DirtySteve said:


> When I read your link for the predator study again it really makes me wonder how you think farmers and carcasses skew the data? Why don't you get the fact that farmers exist and they are part of the landscape? You act like farmers are the issue here and they need to change their practices. When I read the results of the study I get a completely different view than you. I read it as wolves are a bigger issue to farmers than I realized. You seem to read it as farmers are messing up a study. The data is what it is. There is nothing skewed about it. I don't think farmers are idiots or insane for wanting to live their lives as they have.


Where did I ever state that farmers have no value and don't deserve to exist on the landscape?

Apparently, you never read the participating biologist's statement regarding how this skewed the data. No, again, one of us is drawing conclusions from their preconception, not from the actual study's intent. That is why I included the link, I actually expected you to read what the researcher said about the data. The researchers specifically state their rationale for initiating the study, as well its design.

Actually, the broad reversal in "de-listing" the array of organisms you list as vermin is the direct result of hundreds of study outcomes that employed the ScientIfic Method" of hypothesis testing, along with biometric statistical techniques employed to set acceptance or rejection parameters on the pre-formed hypotheses, that underscored that these organisms evolved on the landscape with specific functional roles that not only diversified the species array in these habitats, but also stabilized numeric fluctuations through time. 

No,once again, the outcome IS what it is. The study was designed to assess annual and seasonal whitetail deer predation losses on those herd segments that have the most marked impact on herd growth rates- fawns and adult does in a low snowfall landscape. Did you read any statement regarding assessing interaction of predators with agricultural operations ANYWHERE in the Study design?

If you can't grasp that basic concepts, I can't help you.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Wolves are opportunistic.
As with coyotes they will scavenge. It's an economy of caloric consumption.
Does not void prey drive though.
If it did then controlled feeding of them would be a viable option but it does not.
Cattle feed lots are a source of attraction due to long ranging scent(no dead carcass required) and if nothing else , choice poop to snack on. Prey drive required to survive though so blood must be shed eventually.

Canines are interesting.. but human society and tolerance for wild packs had been resolved where social groups were established. Till conflicts were forgotten and the concept of tolerating them in some one else's back yard became the rage.
What use or possible support for a farmer could be expected from those who promote having wolves is beyond me.
While no fan of coyotes being I raise a smaller breed of canine , I continue to have no interest in tolerating them as competition for deer either. Our hunting has often been justified by our having replaced those predators. 
When they are near as heard at night , I put the coyote watch note on the door to the fenced yard to remind it is rifle time.
Yet other breeders in multiple states have lost dogs both when watching them or no yotes were suspected..good luck offering equal/adequate compensation for their loss if a coyote or wolf took their pet and telling them it is simply the natural order of things as they should be.

For those preservationist's who desire a natural state , feel free to remove your home and roads and any other footprint you have on the environment.
Remain off grid and don't touch or consume anything. Especially near me.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Robert Holmes said:


> Cork Dust first of all I like your postings on fish and wildlife so I am not putting you down. I don't think that the farmers in the UP are going to change their habits because HSUS, USDA, USFWS, and the DNR want hundreds or thousands of wolves to roam the UP. If they have butchered or dead livestock they haul it off and dump it. Yes it may mess up the different studies that different collages are doing but so what. Most people in the UP don't care to exist with 1000 wolves just so a bunch of college kids can do a thesis on them. I believe it is entirely possible for the Mississippi State students to do a thesis on how many Asian Carp that the alligators eat. After all it is a little closer to home for them. It is these stupid predator - prey studies that prevent Michigan from having proper wolf management. Face it sooner than you may think the whole predator prey relationship in the UP may collapse and so will all of the studies and thesis papers.


Bob,

This is the saddest part of the enitre wolf recovery story in the U.P. The USFWS, as well as MDNR Wildlife Division biologists had set a recovery goal of 250 wolves U.P wide. Every time the USFWS has de-listed wolves, the wolf protectionists have used the Federal Courts to gain an injunction blocking that action. Several years ago I sat in a room in Marquette, Michigan where everyone reached broad agreement on this initial plan goal. Agricultural interests were represented, wolf advocacy personnel were present, Federal and State level wildlife biologists were present, as well as several board members of the U.P. Sportsman's Alliance and U.P. Whitetails. Again, everyone was in agreement that no court action would be sought once de-listing occurred.

Near the end of the meeting one of the wolf advocate representatives stated she and her group would oppose sport hunting of wolves. One member of the UP Sportsman's Alliance launched into a tirade. A cascade of "fireworks" statements ensued.

I grabbed a MDNR biologist I knew at the end of the meeting and tried to argue the merits of just using State-sponsored trappers for wolf control...never happened.

How does that saying go, "And the rest is history"?


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Cork Dust said:


> Where did I ever state that farmers have no value and don't deserve to exist on the landscape?


When did I say that you feel farmers have no value and don't deserve to exist? 

My point was that it isn't the farmers fault the study was done where it was. Back in post 65 you stated that farmers actions skewed the data in the study. I say the biologist did his study in the wrong area. If I were going to study a racoons habits in nature I wouldn't study the **** that lives in a hay loft eating chicken eggs, silage and grains its entire life.

I get that the point of the study wasn't to learn about habits of wolves in agricultural areas......but how often does a study reveal unexpected outcomes from their intent? I am sure they weren't expecting 20% of the wolves diets in phase 1 to be agricultural related consumption.....but they learned that this is what happens when wolves live near farms. That was my point when I said the study showed they are the vermin they are known to be? 

I hope you get your chance to hunt wolf where you desire. If trapping is part of it I might be in the area with you.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Cork Dust said:


> Don't tell him about the Greenland farm that did everything right according to his philosophy and they still killed a dozen wolves after they killed many calves and livestock. Anybody can ask Rhoel about how successful they have been with non lethal implementations. They won't like the answer they will get back from him about how good they worked, if at all.



Here is why we differ in our perspectives on wolves and farming site.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Deer_Wintering_HoughtonS_475768_7.pdf

Now, find Greenland Twsp. Why do you think this farm is having so many depredation issues with wolves? Yes,they farmer is doing everything "right", as you state.
Hint: Four wolf packs have formed over time in this area. They remain there on an annual basis.

Now, the source of our different perspectives. You cite this farm as prototypic of all wolf behavior around agricultural sites and human activity foci. Every biologist I have talked to views this as a "Perfect Storm" scenario where several packs of wolves have formed within a relatively small geographic area, with whitetail deer and livestock as food sources. Not all members of these four packs feed on livestock.

I know this country quite well. IF we ever get another wolf hunting season again in the U.P., this is where I am going to apply for a tag.

The wolf protection folks raise hell about sport hunting because they advance the argument that sport hunting induced motality has the POTENTIAL to disrupt a wolf pack's social hierarchy structure, causing the pack to disintegrate (this is totally theoretical), again with the potential of pack members experiencing mortality from malnutrition. I have never found any study that supports this claim. Additionally, the MDNR focused their permits on this area with the background hope that the hunt mortality rate would be high enough to cause these packs to restructure. With the number of winter kill deer (mostly fawns with some adults) that "pop" out of the snow each spring, there is very likelihood of massive malnutrition occurring due to social structure alteration post-wolf hunt.

But, without a hunt that includes a trapping component, wolf mortality will likely fall well below management goal.

Simply look at Wolf Kill statistics stratified by mortality type from their hunts for my rationale in advocating for a wolf trapping component, which Could be more pack specific, particularly in this area.[/QUOTE]


Our farm was no different than this one with the exception that we had 6 or 7 confirmed [MDNR/APHIS] wolf packs. There was one other farm and he did everything possible with a few exceptions that came back to bite him in the rear end later. He too had those same wolves coming in every day like clock work. I trapped over a dozen wolves in one week one spring. I even caught the same wolves a few times that year. I've killed over 50 coyotes in those 3 sections in 2005-2006. I marked 4 wolf dens, 2 winter and 2 summer sites in one section. The DNR left frustrated that none of their non lethal attempts worked. I think the other farmer kicked them off of his place because of it. He was offered from the Prof. at CMU 2 Pyre pups but turned them down knowing they would end up wolf bait. We had ours but never left them out at night to die. We got rid of over 200 head if I remember right in 2008. 2 other farms in our area sold all of their cattle a few years later. They gave up.
I have all the depredation kill spreadsheets from the past 15 years and also have been fighting for trapping to be entered in the next wolf hunt, hopefully this fall. Wolves are dumb when it comes to a good foothold set.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

DirtySteve said:


> When did I say that you feel farmers have no value and don't deserve to exist?
> 
> My point was that it isn't the farmers fault the study was done where it was. Back in post 65 you stated that farmers actions skewed the data in the study. I say the biologist did his study in the wrong area. If I were going to study a racoons habits in nature I wouldn't study the **** that lives in a hay loft eating chicken eggs, silage and grains its entire life.
> 
> ...


One point: Do you really think that the farmers were absolutely unaware that wolves were feeding on dead livestock at sites on their land? I have never met a farmer who didn't have a pretty accurate take on who and what is or was walking across his property or hanging around on his or her land(yes, I hunt geese on a diary farm operated by a woman). I turkey hunt and goose hunt in the Phase I area on four different farms. I fish salmon with a guy who grows non-commercial apples, corn and barley down there on his land as well. It was common knowledge when the study was initiated, but never conveyed to the folks setting-up the study site boundaries...

If you note, I never joined the conversation until Waabi-Mukwa ( Ojibwe for White Bear) stated that he continued to bury carcasses on his land. I also made a point of reading the entire thread prior posting including the misrepresentation of the biolgist's statements regarding seasonal total wolf population numbers, versus adult population estimate values-a very marked misrepresentation of what was conveyed to that audience. Again to underscore why FALL adult estimates are used, mortality on pups in their first six months can be as high as sixty percent and adult mortality has been recorded at annual values of near fifty percent. A Fall count estimate yeilds a value that is a better indicator of wolf predation on whitetail deer from the MDNR Wildlife Division's perspective. No one is intentionally skewing the Public communicated numbers low. If you take my level of disagreement with one farmer who misrepresents the data on the impacts of wolves, fails to alter his behavior based on available evidence on actions that may lower his farm's predation risk, dismisses use of any guard animals, refuses to seek compensation for livestock depredation by wolves, yet, continually holds wolves responsible for nearly all the ills in the World, as well as attempting to paint them as a risk to Human safety(I may have seen one driving a car down the streets in Marinesco, but it was too dark to get a good look at him.) as representative of a condemnation of all farmers, I encourage you to reconsider your logic.

My point with respect to the study results being skewed by wolves supplementing their diet from livestock dump sites was that it DIMINISHED their potential impact on whitetail deer predation rates, seasonally and annually. It was missed entirely, likely why you made the damning statements. It actually indirectly support your argument regarding wolves. IT is what I stated initially when you asked for my interpretation of how the results were skewed. I just thought I would wait to see whether you eventually realized what I was implying. If you go back and reference that post, you will note that I also included a biologist's statement from the Phase II tier that ends this year that wolves were found to play a more significant role as predators on adult deer in the moderate snowfall area northeast of Crystal Falls. This was to underscore my point that wolves play a more significant role in whitetail deer predation than the Phase I study data indicated. 

The Michigan wolf season was set-up during the wrong time interval for a strict gun hunt-way too many other user groups in the woods putting Man scent down. Reference the Michigan Out of Doors segment Jenny Olsen did on the Wolf Hunt. I won't even buy a tag if there is no trapping component and they hold it at the same time interval, should there be another season in the State. I pick mushrooms, stream fish, hunt grouse and woodcock, and waterfowl, but don't trap anymore other than sets for nuisance beaver. In all that time I have only seen a few wolves. Just reference hunter success rates on whitetail deer to get an idea of how inefficient a gun only wolf hunt will always be. There are far fewer wolves than deer in the U.P., and they are very good at picking-up a human stumbling through the woods, myself included. I see a lot of fresh tracks, some very fresh scat, but very few wolves.

Since no one has any clue where the current Federal protection of wolves will go, I focus on the things that may possibly benefit whitetail deer numbers in the U.P. -getting the MDNR to alter the population management and estimation efforts based on better analyses techniques


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

It is pretty sad that the pro wolf people cannot figure out how a predator prey relationship works. When the prey is readily available the numbers of predators increase. When the prey is not available they will seek out and kill what they can sink their teeth into. They are not much different than humans who look at grocery prices then go out hunting and fishing. If hunting gets too difficult for the wolves they too will either kill each other or starve. I really don't expect the wolf lovers to be hanging prime rib and T Bones in the trees when the wolves are starving.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Here is why we differ in our perspectives on wolves and farming site.
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Deer_Wintering_HoughtonS_475768_7.pdf
> 
> Now, find Greenland Twsp. Why do you think this farm is having so many depredation issues with wolves? Yes,they farmer is doing everything "right", as you state.
> ...



Our farm was no different than this one with the exception that we had 6 or 7 confirmed [MDNR/APHIS] wolf packs. There was one other farm and he did everything possible with a few exceptions that came back to bite him in the rear end later. He too had those same wolves coming in every day like clock work. I trapped over a dozen wolves in one week one spring. I even caught the same wolves a few times that year. I've killed over 50 coyotes in those 3 sections in 2005-2006. I marked 4 wolf dens, 2 winter and 2 summer sites in one section. The DNR left frustrated that none of their non lethal attempts worked. I think the other farmer kicked them off of his place because of it. He was offered from the Prof. at CMU 2 Pyre pups but turned them down knowing they would end up wolf bait. We had ours but never left them out at night to die. We got rid of over 200 head if I remember right in 2008. 2 other farms in our area sold all of their cattle a few years later. They gave up.
I have all the depredation kill spreadsheets from the past 15 years and also have been fighting for trapping to be entered in the next wolf hunt, hopefully this fall. Wolves are dumb when it comes to a good foothold set.[/QUOTE]
/


I feel the same way about giving up a place I loved to hunt from. Like throwing away a chunk of your soul. 

This is actually exactly why the Federal Judge who granted the last injunction to block the USFWS wolf de-listing in the Great Lakes Recovery Unit was mistaken in her logic. She interpreted spread and expansion of wolf populations eastward from the perspective of pushing water through a pipe, if density goes up on one end the dispersion rate will uniformly increase. It can't because the landscape is not uniformly adequate wolf habitat anymore, nor will it ever be returned to habitat that will accommodate a top predator like wolves. 

Now retired MSU professor,Ben Peyton, developed a matrix that attempted to intersect and weight social/biologic perspectives and factors to come up with a wolf population Social Carrying Capacity value for the U.P. It was included in the first Wolf Management Symposium Document. From what I recall. he pegged major push-back to begin at around 700 wolves (Fall count estimate). Biological carrying capacity has been pegged at 1,200-1,300 animals for the U.P. If no action or intervention occurs via the Federal Legislature, a perfect "recipe" for "Finnish Lightening" to strike will be the result!

This is exactly why lethal trapping is the only really viable solution, both for depredation issues and in the broader landscape since it is Highly effective, targets exactly the animals that need to be removed, and likely will break-up the pack's social hierarchy structure in the long-term. 

IF you break-up the packs in these areas and allow/force them to reconsolidate, a mini-populaiton decline would likely occur in that geography. Should this outcome occur, essentially the remaining packs would hunt over a larger area. Since there are so many deer yards, I doubt that wolves would ever completely vacate the area. 

I fail to understand how the wolf advocates attach greater importance to a wolf living or dying in the wild than any other wild animal that exists in the same geography.

A strict hunting season was the result of the MDNR "cowing" to pressure from the leadership of the U.P. Sportsman's Alliance, the same group of a handful of "APR preachers" who derailed the mid-peninsula Citizen's Whitetail Advisory Committee. Instead of Winter Habitat preservation efforts they fought over and eventually formulated recommendations on APRs that were trumped when the Legislature passed their version Nearly two years of wasted effort. They also hoped to side-step the HSUS complaints about trapping wolves. Obviously, nothing worked out as hoped for. Hopefully Legislative over-ride will close the door on Federal Court intervention once and for all.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Boy, things were sure a lot better when they were not roaming around in the Yoop.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Robert Holmes said:


> It is pretty sad that the pro wolf people cannot figure out how a predator prey relationship works. When the prey is readily available the numbers of predators increase. When the prey is not available they will seek out and kill what they can sink their teeth into. They are not much different than humans who look at grocery prices then go out hunting and fishing. If hunting gets too difficult for the wolves they too will either kill each other or starve. I really don't expect the wolf lovers to be hanging prime rib and T Bones in the trees when the wolves are starving.


Interesting point. Bob. 

After sitting in that room and watching two people move to the verge of wanting to kill each other over whether a wolf hunting season should, could, or would occur down the road, it was evident a lot of preconceptions and strong emotional driven response levels were operative. 

The guy from the UP Sportsman's (yes, I know his name) Alliance basically stated that since sportsman had to give up so much to allow wolves to exist in the U.P. , they should have some compensation i.e. a sport hunting season. 

As this thread outlines, particularly in recent posts, others have given-up far more. 

And, no one gets a say at the State level in any aspect of wolf management until wolves are delisted from the Endangered Species array in the Great Lakes wolf recovery unit.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

stickbow shooter said:


> Boy, things were sure a lot better when they were not roaming around in the Yoop.


Let's just say I spent a lot less time crawling around in clear-cuts looking for deer travel corridors. I am hunting a 4.5 YO nine point this Fall. He is nearly entirely nocturnal and seldom comes out of the 170 acre clear-cut he hangs out in most of the time. For some reason, he thinks I stink! I know for a fact he has never held a conversation with my wife, so I am justifiably puzzled.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Okay Cork Dust you are the biologist or retired biologist. First of all there is no definite proof that the Western Gray Wolf ever really lived in the Great Lakes Region which would make them an invasive species. Not saying that a few may or may not have been present. The Eastern Timber Wolf is a better bet for the species that once lived here. What are the numbers that will determine a recovered population? This endangered species thing could go on forever. I am looking at other species that remain on the endangered species list and I see hundreds of them every year. I am beginning to think that there are too many armchair biologists in the world that and the educated biologists that never step a foot out of the city limits.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Cork Dust said:


> One point: Do you really think that the farmers were absolutely unaware that wolves were feeding on dead livestock at sites on their land? I have never met a farmer who didn't have a pretty accurate take on who and what is or was walking across his property or hanging around on his or her land(yes, I hunt geese on a diary farm operated by a woman). I turkey hunt and goose hunt in the Phase I area on four different farms. I fish salmon with a guy who grows non-commercial apples, corn and barley down there on his land as well. It was common knowledge when the study was initiated, but never conveyed to the folks setting-up the study site boundaries...


I will agree with you on all your points about what a farmer knows about his farm and land. I too hunt many farms and have good friends with multiple types of farms. Here are a few more facts a farmer probably understands about his farm and business. 

The farmer understands how much pasture land he owns. He understands how many acres he needs per head of cattle based on his avg rainfall. He understands how many "guard donkeys" you need to protect that pasture. He knows how much pasture land those donkeys will consume. The farmer understands that equines will eat 2-3 times the pasture land that they need if they are allowed to stay in that pasture unlike a cow. So now he has to remove them at times defeating the purpose. He understands the amount of extra hay he needs to put up to support his donkeys through the winter and the amount of labor it will take....even if you gave him the hay. He knows what the vet bills will cost for guard donkeys and aggressive natured guard dogs that his wife probably doesn't like having around. All of these are costs that the farmer won't recoup.

It is easy to look at one side and say jeez they offered him free solutions and the farmer told them to take a hike without even trying. He just wants to complain and not find a solution. There is a good chance that farmer is smarter than you think.

Do I think the farmers with carcass dump sites understand that wolves are feeding there. Yes I believe they do. I also would understand if the farmer believed the wolf packs would live right where they are with or without a dumpsite. He understands that his pasture is like a year round deer yard with slower animals in a confined area. He probably figures the dumpsite is keeping the wolves out of his pasture 25% of the time.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

DirtySteve said:


> I will agree with you on all your points about what a farmer knows about his farm and land. I too hunt many farms and have good friends with multiple types of farms. Here are a few more facts a farmer probably understands about his farm and business.
> 
> The farmer understands how much pasture land he owns. He understands how many acres he needs per head of cattle based on his avg rainfall. He understands how many "guard donkeys" you need to protect that pasture. He knows how much pasture land those donkeys will consume. The farmer understands that equines will eat 2-3 times the pasture land that they need if they are allowed to stay in that pasture unlike a cow. So now he has to remove them at times defeating the purpose. He understands the amount of extra hay he needs to put up to support his donkeys through the winter and the amount of labor it will take....even if you gave him the hay. He knows what the vet bills will cost for guard donkeys and aggressive natured guard dogs that his wife probably doesn't like having around. All of these are costs that the farmer won't recoup.
> 
> ...


My take on this is farmers know all about non lethal ways and know from experience including me what works and what doesn't. What doesn't work are noise makers, fladry and strobe lights. Shooting over their head doesn't work either. Dogs are only as good as the wolf pack numbers itself. Some donkeys work and others couldn't be bothered to stay with the cows or other animals. Again any donkey or dog will be useless when out numbered by wolves. So far the only consistent thing that works is a box of shells and a good flat shooting rifle. If you have many packs coming through nothing helps. Its then time to start thinning the packs. Which we have only been able to do for 5 years out of the last 20 years of wolf damage.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I would bet that some of the farmers are using the new high powered air rifles to give the wolves a good whack at long range. That would be my weapon of choice under the present circumstances. Depending on what you buy they can be non lethal and they can send a message. A few good whacks and the wolves will stay out of the pasture. For sure it would be worth a try and you don't have to feed it.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Good luck there Mukwa I doubt that it will be legal to defend the cattle for awhile. Is the reimbursement fair at all? I have heard both sides where some farmers thought it was fair and some farmers had problems.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Robert Holmes said:


> Good luck there Mukwa I doubt that it will be legal to defend the cattle for awhile. Is the reimbursement fair at all? I have heard both sides where some farmers thought it was fair and some farmers had problems.


The longer they wait to delist them the more that will be killed when they are taken off. You think the wolf lovers would figure that out but they are drunk with emotional stupidity.
It is something but not even close to market value. Some calves killed only brought $200-$300. Market value is well over $1,000, but they don't figure that in. It is more age dependent and not what it would bring if it was grown and ready for sale.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)




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