# Salmon in the rivers



## NightSnipePaul (Jul 9, 2005)

From what I have been hearing the salmon population in Lake Huron is dwindeling to nothing. I was in Harrisville this past weekend talking with the harbor master, he also said the salmon probably wont even come in up there. You Know its getting bad when Harrisville canceles its annual salmon tournament. The salmon that will wander in the harbor will have those giant heads with those 3 or 4 pound bodies. We can thank those damn Double -Crested Cormorants and a slugish half - - - DNR for that. How in the hell did these birds get so out of hand before anyone saw they were going to be a major problem. It's just plain wrong. There needs to be a open season on these birds. There not only destroying all the bait fish but there have been salmon up to 16 inches found inside these birds stomachs. OK, I spoke my piece, I know it's off the subject but I felt I needed to express myself. My question is, Will there still be a large number trout entering the harbors and more particularry into the rivers. Mainly the Black river in PT Huron. Thanks


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

There has been a lot of information exchanged on this website recently about the serious decline in Salmon in Lake Huron. Nothing indicates that Cormorants have had anything to do with the reduction in baitfish. Not that I am sticking up for those foul birds - pun intended.
If the million Kings that the DNR has been planting each year in Rogers City didn't wipe out the Alewives, what would make you think cormorants would? If Cormorants were eating so many Salmon, why would they eat Alewives, and vice versa?
The decrease in Alewives has been attributed to several very cold Winters, and other invasive species which have sort of removed the lower end of the food chain in Lake Huron. 
What is it that YOU think the DNR should do about this problem? Plant 100 million Alewives each year?
The Federal government is already taking steps to reduce the numbers of Cormorants. They have been oiling eggs to keep 99% of them from hatching; as well as having limited controlled hunts to reduce the numbers of mature birds. 
Go to the Coldwater Forum and read up on this subject - there is a ton of information in some recent posts. 

For what my opinion is worth, I see the average size of Kings in Lake Michigan decreasing fairly rapidly over the last couple years, and overall numbers seem to be down as well. Without anything to substantiate it, I feel that there is a similar crash looming for Lk Michigan in the next few years. We have tried to manage nature for too long, and have lost control. We need to let nature find its balance in these Great Lakes. I am frightened at the thoughts of what that balance might be - I can foresee a much reduced Salmon and Steelhead fishery throughout the Great Lakes, due to exotic species invading and changing the ecosystem. 

I do not expect any sizeable runs of Kings in any rivers which are tributaries of Lake Huron this year - with the exception of Swan Creek in Rogers City. The upside is that a lot of people will try fishing East side rivers and after a few dismal years of no Salmon will give up; and perhaps the fishery will rebound and there might be a couple years of great fishing that very few people take advantage of - but those few people will have a real good time. Maybe that is just a dream.


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## Eggsniffer (Aug 2, 2005)

I can't help thinking that perhaps the problem has been too many kings stocked...
I'm glad to hear they are cutting back in huron. 

Lake ontario was on the brink of such a crash, NY cut salmon stocking by 1/2, and managed (for the time being anyway) to avoid a crash. of course, huron is a different lake, but, from what I have gathered, king stocking had not been curtailed immediately. 

Have a look at the size and numbers of lake ontario US side fish. it's really impressive. also... not the problem with NETS that there seems to be here. I was really amazed when I first moved to the area, to find out that every creek that runs into the big lakes in MI does NOT necessarily get a run.

Hopefully things will rebound though :help:


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

Thirteenptbuck, all I can say is that last year was just fine in the "Blue water" area. There were plenty of salmon. Your :rant: was about salmon but you  was about trout. Steelhead seemed to be off this spring and we don't get much in the fall in our tribs in this area.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

There is an excellent recap of the DNR's assessment of this situation on the Cold Water page, as well as what they intend to do to try to make it better. 
Easy read and well worth the few minutes it takes.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Kind of supports my (sad) projection that Lake Michigan might be right behind Lake Huron in a crash of Salmon size and population. This from one of the original Salmon charter captains in Michigan.

http://www.michigansportsman.com/


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Just kidding fella's. Seems like the correct thing to do now-a-days, blame Bush!!
I think most at fault is the invasive species!!! I dont think the DNR or anyone really knows how bad the proublem is. Its way out of hand and no one knows how to rid our lakes of them so they will multiply...andmultiply .. and multiply.
I hope im wrong but my gut says it will get much, much worse


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## Salmonous Maximus (Jan 28, 2004)

Here is what this "Captain" posted:

*9/21/05 Something I never seen before and was brought to my attention on last Friday's prototype testing session. In all my years of Salmon fishing on the Great Lakes I cleaned plenty of smaller early maturing male Kings (jacks), but never seen a mature hen (female) that was under 10 lbs, ripe, full of eggs and ready to spawn. 
We had a couple females around 8 pounds that were true adult spawners. If forced to guess the age of these hens, I'd say they were 2 year old adult female Kings.
Granted the times I fished in 2004 and 2005 you could count on your hands and toes, but this new weakening gene pool trend is cause for major concern.
Scuttle butt from the MDNR is an upcoming 25% reduction in the 2006 King Salmon plants and eliminating local net pen projects. With this cut-back, no downsizing, or layoffs are planned in the DNR. Nor are there to be increases in other species to make up for the trimmed down hatchery efforts, or a 25% decrease in our yearly resident fishing licenses. Please keep in mind, this info is not 100% confirmed yet.
However, I'm willing bet the farm......fishing licenses will not be cut 25% for 2006!*

First of all, the small mature fish were probably Lake Huron fish that ended up in L. Michigan. What the hell does he expect? With the huge influx of fish from Huron of course you will see some smaller sized fish.

This captain seems to be a DNR basher, seems he expects lay-offs because of a cut in the number of salmon planted? :lol: What a joke! If anything we need more biologists and other members of the DNR working to help insure the future of our fishery.

And lastly, anyone who wants a cut in fishing license fees... (because our DNR is trying to HELP OUR FISHERY by reestablishing a forage base) is a ******* moron. I hope they increase it so the cheep-as*es can make fools of themselves.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

I would much rather pay additional fees than see a reduction in Michigans QUALITY fishing.
And yes, we do have Quality fishing. World class!!
I'm like most people. I'd like to save money but not at the cost of losing our
fishery... I'd gladly pay more if i KNEW that the additional fees were being put to "GOOD" use and not wasted. Overall our DNR does a very good job


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## Eggsniffer (Aug 2, 2005)

Fishndude,

I'm told there was something of a crash in L Mich. back in the 80's is that true? I think a big indicator is the average sizes of fish... And even L. Mich fish seem smaller than ontario fish. Might be a good key to watch out for things coming over the horizon. 

it's really not that difficult of a solution. kings are eating machines, LY's and other forage base fish are spawning machines. more and more kings = less and less forage, and the kings will get smaller and smaller, less and less will mature....crash!

I know the invasive species don't help. but onatrio, and even G bay have them, and their fishery is doing very well.

Stock less, let the forage rebound!


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

Eggsniffer said:


> Fishndude,
> 
> I'm told there was something of a crash in L Mich. back in the 80's is that true? I think a big indicator is the average sizes of fish... And even L. Mich fish seem smaller than ontario fish. Might be a good key to watch out for things coming over the horizon.
> 
> ...



Well said in regaurds to the Ontario Fishery. We have a cabin on Lake Huron in Grand Bend and fish many of the tribs that are with in and hour drive and have alot more sucess then many of our SE tribs in Michigan. Their plantings are far fewer and many of them are wild.


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## automan4025 (Dec 28, 2004)

*Fished north of harrisville at the black river last year and did great. Saw hundreds of fish making there way up stream.*


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

automan4025 said:


> *Fished north of harrisville at the black river last year and did great. Saw hundreds of fish making there way up stream.*



That's not in the thumb is it? Your referring to a different Black River aren't you?


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## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

> That's not in the thumb is it? Your referring to a different Black River aren't you?


It is a very different black river than the one you are thinking of here in se lower thumb region.Its fishing and water quality is far superior than the warm water river that flows through our region.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Since it was brought up here. This is your Trivia question.....
How many Black Rivers are there in Mich.?


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## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

black river(Alcona County) 
Black River (Allegan/Van Buren Counties) 
Black River (Cheboygan/Montmorency/Presque Isle/Otsego Counties) 
Black River (Gogebic County) 
Black River (Luce/Mackinac Counties) 
Black River (Marquette County) 
Black River (Sanilac/St.Clair Counties

Challenge me next time


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Salmonus: First of all, John King started his charter business as soon as it was known there were Salmon to fish for in the Great Lakes. He literally has spent more days fishing for Great Lakes Salmon than probably anybody anywhere. He is now retired, and fishes with friends to test his line of baits. He knows the fishery well, and has worked closely with the DNR and other charter captains for decades to advocate the fishery in Lake Michigan and all of the Great Lakes. He is anything but a moron where Salmon fishing is concerned. 
Secondly: He still is in touch with DNR personnel and charter organizations and works hard to improve the fishery in Lake Michigan. You should read the follow-up post on his site today. 
I was merely pointing out that someone with arguably the most experience going for fishing for Salmon in Lake Michigan noticed that he caught mature female Kings which were smaller than any he had ever caught before - in almost 40 years. 
I mainly fish Lake Huron tribs, and can tell you that about 6 or 7 years ago I started seeing much smaller Kings returning to spawn. Prior to last year (when there were hardly any Salmon at all) I would say that for the previous 3 years the average size of Kings was probably around 6 - 8 pounds. I have seen mature hens so small that males were chasing them off the beds - I am talking about 14" hens trying to spawn. Could it be that lake Michigan is a few years behind Lake Huron, and the Salmon will just keep getting smaller? 
If you look at the numbers of Master Angler Kings, Cohos, and Steelhead registered over the last 5 years, you will see this trend. There are very few Master Angler Kings registered this year. Do you think people just are not registering them? Charter captains LOVE to have their clients register Master Angler fish - it keeps the clients coming back. 

Eggsniffer: There was a crash in Lake Michigan back in the 80's, but it was because of Bacterial Kidney Disease - BKD. The fish literally died off, and the more the DNR planted, the faster it spread. The DNR began treating all hatchery Kings with tetracycline to immunize them from this, and it caused the spines of the treated fish to glow under black light. For some reason, the Lake Huron Kings were not affected by BKD much, and once all were treated, it pretty much stopped being an issue. Now I am hearing that most Kings found everywhere in Michigan are from natural reproduction, so perhaps the disease has run its course, or the fish have developed a natural immunity. 

I don't have all of the answers to all of this stuff, but since I love to fish for Steelhead (mostly) and Salmon (to a lesser extent) I love to find out more and more about it. I know there are much larger Kings in Lake Ontario, but do not know why. Maybe because the rivers dump more nutrients into the lakes? Have you ever noticed that all of the rivers in Ohio look like chocolate milk? Maybe because the lake is not as deep, so the ecosystem supports Salmon and their prey better? Lakes Michigan and Huron are very deep (750 and 600 feet respectively) and Kings do not live 400 feet down. That leaves alot of environment where they do not reside - but other species do. 
Also, Zebra mussels filter out the bottom of the food chain, and without food, all of the species above die off.


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## Salmonous Maximus (Jan 28, 2004)

Fishndude said:


> I know there are much larger Kings in Lake Ontario, but do not know why. Maybe because the rivers dump more nutrients into the lakes? Have you ever noticed that all of the rivers in Ohio look like chocolate milk?


Let the pollution begin! I was actually thinking about this the other day. Could more nutrients added to the water create a better "ecological soup" for the alewives to feed off of.....thus feeding the salmonoids.

Of course, you could not just pollute the waters with toxins, but maybe some sort of "massive nutrient release" could be performed.  

Fishndude- I am just saying that it does seem that from his post that he is looking for some sort of outcry because the DNR probably won't reduce the fishing license price. That's ridiculous IMO.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Sorry, 'ol buddy... DISQUALIFIED!!!!!
Your first answer was 6 + used a map = DISQUALIFIED!!!!

(Trivia is just that, trivia. no reference material can be used)

Have a nice day:lol:


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## automan4025 (Dec 28, 2004)

The black river 12 miles north of Harrisville, 20 miles south of Alpena,


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## Eggsniffer (Aug 2, 2005)

Fishndude, 

Ontario is actually the deepest of the lakes. its 980 or 940 something. I was always told also that michigan has more nutrients too, but I don't know. maybe since it's last in the chain, all the LY's just pour through, and go over the falls into ontario? haha, probably not 

I know that ontario used to have even bigger fish than than it does now. there's a ton of reasons, and stocking is just one. I think though, that the quickest way to cause a population crash is to overload an ecosystem. So, the most important thing is not to stock too many LY vacuums (kings)

A couple of notes of interst:

There had been a steady decline in the number of brown trout in the eastern basin of lake O, and about 5 years ago they started barge stocking instead of stream stocking, and now the brown trout fishing has been great (western basin had always been very productive) apparently this was because of our frined the comorant

as far as nutrients. rembmer the clean water act of the 80's? one big impact that made was in banning phosphates in detergents. a lot of these phosphates made their way into the lake which boosted phytoplankton, which boosted zooplankton, which boosted LY populations... which you gessed it. apparently the 80's were the heyday, but I never saw them. but BOY have I heard the stories. 20lb steelhead were not at all uncommon! now I only hear of a handfull taken every year out of the salmon river (which I'm the most familiar with)

I don't know if ontario fish suffered from BKD, but they did cut back on king stocking when the LY numbers began to decrease (and many say this was because of the clean water act, I'm not forming an opinion either way). 

Now, I'm new to Michigan, but here's a couple of observations I have made:

Michigan has LONG gravelly tribs, and a lot more natural reproduction than NY. (which probably could not sustsain itself without stocking). but long tribs let fish spread out (a good thing and a bad thing) so a lot of times it can be difficult to find good concentrations of fish. Ontario tribs are short, dammed, and do not have fish ladder programs. so those tribs "load up" at the drop of a hat. it will also take more fish to "load up" a longer, bigger tributary, and I don't imagine there's enough fish (or even the possiblity thereof) in most of michigan's lakes to see some of the concentrations you might see in ontario. of course, I'm new, and haven't seen MI's later fall and winter runs. but I'm definitely impressed with the amount of natrual repro that michigan is capable of. Hopefully the LY situation will get fixed and all the tribs will be loaded with salmon and trout in the fall in a few years! (I'd like that, NY is a long drive) 

I'm also kind of bummed to hear that there's a lot of netting out in the lake.


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## tailhooker (Aug 5, 2005)

be very careful when fishing the black river near harrisburg, it is illegal to fish upstream of the old weir "the hills have eyes"


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## ZobZob (Oct 27, 2002)

I just wanted to comment on the fishing license price.  If you think $28 for a resident license is expensive, you need to look around. $28 is nothing for a years worth of fishing.... take a date out for dinner or your family to the movies and you've already spent more in one night than you spend on the license for the entire year. I just moved to WI and the resident licenses are $37.25 total if you want to be able to fish inland and outlying trout/salmon waters. I know Ohio's are only $19 but it's a little easier to manage Lake Erie w/ the natural walleye reproduction and the lack of inland trout streams. Keep in mind there are four great lakes and thousands of miles of trout streams in Michigan. 

By the way, Indiana is $23.50 to fish for trout/salmon. I would much rather pay the additional $4.50 to fish in Michigan (i.e. if there were not resident vs. non-resident price differences).

Zob


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