# What makes fur harvesting a commercial activity vs a recreational activity



## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

You people don't get it. I'm not suggesting anything or pushing any agenda. I am trying to tell you that you have been lied to for decades and show you how it is hurting you and the wild fur industry as a whole. Trapping and fur hunting (fur harvesting), according to the U.S. Supreme Court and the IRS is already a commercial activity. It doesn't matter what you want it to be, it is what it is; and that is a commercial activity. The antis already acknowledge this fact and are trying to use that against us. So my advise to all of you is that you had better wake up to reality before you end up with real "recreational" fur harvesting and you are prohibited by law from selling your catch or shipping it out of state as that is the legal definition of a "recreational activity" according to the U.S. Supreme Court. That is why hunting game animals is considered a "recreational activity".

It is far easier to defend and promote trapping and fur hunting (fur harvesting) as a commercial activity than it is as a recreational activity. And more effective as well.

The Wildlife Guardians have already filed federal lawsuit in Montana that would prohibit the interstate commerce of all bobcats, otter, wolves, and lynx. You see, the antis already know fur harvesting is commercial. Trappers and fur hunters are the ones with their heads buried in the sand on this issue. Knowing that the antis are already trying to prohibit the interstate commerce in these furs and animal parts, what makes you think they won't go after the interstate commerce of fisher, marten, badger, raccoon, and/or mink next?

Wake up people!


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

dead short said:


> Michigan does not allow non-resident trappers from states that do not allow Michigan residents to trap jn their state.


You are correct on both of your posts. The U.S. Supreme Court has validated the use of reciprocal laws, and for the most part I agree with reciprocal laws as long as trappers and fur hunters seriously consider the "big picture" before agreeing to them.

Dead Short, I am sharing this "commercial activity" information with MI fur harvesters in part so they can begin to make changes in a few state laws as not only is fur harvesting impacted on State owned lands, but on CFL's as well. And we will be impacted on federal lands also. There is a lot of work to be done. I would like to see the various MI trapper and fur hunter associations become more proactive in these areas instead of waiting until after the fact. Any federal court action, even if it is taken in another state, that impacts the interstate commerce of wild fur will effect all Michigan fur harvesters. Kill the interstate commerce of wild fur and you effectively kill all fur harvesting. That is a fact.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

It is my understanding that many of Michigan's laws that exclude non residents from trapping here is reciprocity. I think reciprocity in laws and license fees with other states is a great idea.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

I have always wondered how many people put the $$$ they make trapping on their tax return. I'd assume not every many. Depending on fur prices and claims of take from trappers it wouldn't be impossible for someone serious in the sport to bring home $5-$10 grand some years. I personally know trappers that claim to pay for their Canadian spring bear hunts and fishing trips each year solely with their trapping revenue. Could be smoke and mirrors, could be true. 

Also thought it entertaining a few years ago when bait was banned how many retailers shouted because of a loss in revenue....in the tens of thousands of dollars for some store owners. Honestly, most of the stores I know of do cash sales on bait/feed with no receipt. Money doesn't even see the cash drawer.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

Luv2hunteup said:


> It is my understanding that many of Michigan's laws that exclude non residents from trapping here is reciprocity.


That is correct.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

dead short said:


> I have always wondered how many people put the $$$ they make trapping on their tax return. I'd assume not every many. Depending on fur prices and claims of take from trappers it wouldn't be impossible for someone serious in the sport to bring home $5-$10 grand some years. I personally know trappers that claim to pay for their Canadian spring bear hunts and fishing trips each year solely with their trapping revenue. Could be smoke and mirrors, could be true.
> 
> Also thought it entertaining a few years ago when bait was banned how many retailers shouted because of a loss in revenue....in the tens of thousands of dollars for some store owners. Honestly, most of the stores I know of do cash sales on bait/feed with no receipt. Money doesn't even see the cash drawer.


If you are cashing checks into your account you should be including your income on taxes.....there is a trail there. You can write off hobby expenses for hobby income up to the amount you made. Keep track of mileage on vehicle and amortize the value of your equipment and most should be able to come out without paying taxes.

You are dead on about cash sales and businesses. I know someone that did a serious look into buying a baitshop/ store. He hired an accountant to go through their books. The amount the guy was asking for the business didn't make sense based on what he claimed with the irs. if you took into account the cash sales for deer bait, worms, ice etc..... the business case made sense. It turned out to be an issue for the seller though because buyers couldn't get a loan for fair value without proper acounting. He took a big loss at retirement time when his business was worth 40% of what it should have been.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

Checks and register receipts......those could catch up to someone. Most store owners I know of buy bait and feed with their own money and sell it at their store for cash. 

This is from an article during the ban..."To a large degree, it is a hidden economy. The best guesstimate: A $30 million to $40 million market, saids Ken Nye, a commodities specialist for Michigan Farm Bureau." 

I wonder if by "hidden economy" he meant under the table cash sale..

Minnow sales, if you have a catchers license and catch your own are a cash cow. Having to buy them from a minnow dealer could start to create the trail.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

The scenario I referred to the guy was probably making a killing in his cash sales. It kind of caught up with him in the end. He was asking $350k for his business when he retired. When his books were gone through by a professional it showed his business was worth about 100k. He tried to sell the business for several yrs before giving up. He eventually hired an auction company to liquidate the contents of the store and the property never sold. It has been for sale for a decade now. 

So who knows what the better scenario might have been. Maybe if he paid taxes and could show the true value of his business he may have gotten his big payday at retirement. By cheating the govt he proved his business to be somewhat worthless on paper. The banks won't loan to a potential buyer based on illegal sales.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

Yeah.....I was following you.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

DirtySteve, depending on each person's individual tax situation it sometimes makes financial sense to take the depreciation deduction instead of taking the mileage deduction. The last time my CPA and I discussed it, I think brand new traps could be depreciated out over a three or five year span. The best advice I can offer is for anybody that is serious about becoming a better trapper, both in catch numbers and financially, is to start out by having a discussion with a CPA and then document all of your trapping related activities. One of the most important numbers a serious trapper can learn is what the true costs are for you to operate your trap line vehicle per mile - and trust me it is a lot more than just your gas for the day. Knowing this number is great for making trap line and time management decisions which will both affect your catch numbers and financial picture at the end of the season.

As a business major in college I took a routine business application and applied it to my trapping to see where I could improve, and it only requires you to think about, and answer in detail, four little questions; (1) What are my strengths?, (2) What are my weaknesses?, (3) What and where are the opportunities for improving my trapping success?, and (4) What are the threats to my immediate and long term success as a trapper? Identifying your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats is huge asset in self and business improvement.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

dead short said:


> I have always wondered how many people put the $$$ they make trapping on their tax return. I'd assume not every many. Depending on fur prices and claims of take from trappers it wouldn't be impossible for someone serious in the sport to bring home $5-$10 grand some years. I personally know trappers that claim to pay for their Canadian spring bear hunts and fishing trips each year solely with their trapping revenue. Could be smoke and mirrors, could be true.
> 
> Also thought it entertaining a few years ago when bait was banned how many retailers shouted because of a loss in revenue....in the tens of thousands of dollars for some store owners. Honestly, most of the stores I know of do cash sales on bait/feed with no receipt. Money doesn't even see the cash drawer.



Dead Short, there are several fur trappers and serious fur hunters in MI who can and do gross $5K - $20K each season. A couple of them are doing this while working a full time job as well. It all boils down to line and time management, marketing, and conducting your trapping and fur hunting activities like a business. For the record, these guys all derive a great deal of enjoyment from their fur trapping/hunting efforts as well as their hard earned financial success as a result of their pelt processing and marketing skills.

As far as those who don't report their trapping income on their taxes or business owners who don't report their cash sales, lets call them what they are; TAX CHEATS. If they are less than honest in this area, in what other areas of their life are they deficient? Are these trappers capable of stealing traps or animals from somebody else's traps? How else would these business owners cheat somebody who came to do business with them? Think about that. Ethics and integrity are personal issues we each must deal with as they are a part of what gives us our character.


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2014)

I'll have to report that $106 dollars I got this year so I'm not a tax cheat. I had around 1000 miles to get it too. So at .54 cents a mile, that equals $540. 

Maybe I'll just save some ink and not report it


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Patrick it is hard for anyone to argue your opinions on paying taxes. It doesn't matter if you are a trapper, hobby farmer, mushroom hunter, honey/maple syrup producer etc..... they are all hobbies that earn income off the land and none are exempt from paying taxes. The push to recognize trapping as a commercial activity federally and telling us we have been lied to as you have stated seems like a non issue. I have never viewed my trapping as non commercial and i have always viewed my trapping as a hobby/recreational activity. I also don't feel a need for leverage with the dnr like you have stated. I have been fairly happy with the way the dnr/nrc has worked with the trappers in this state regarding trapping issues in recent yrs.


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## James Dymond (Feb 23, 2002)

DirtySteve said:


> Patrick it is hard for anyone to argue your opinions on paying taxes. It doesn't matter if you are a trapper, hobby farmer, mushroom hunter, honey/maple syrup producer etc..... they are all hobbies that earn income off the land and none are exempt from paying taxes. The push to recognize trapping as a commercial activity federally and telling us we have been lied to as you have stated seems like a non issue. I have never viewed my trapping as non commercial and i have always viewed my trapping as a hobby/recreational activity. I also don't feel a need for leverage with the dnr like you have stated. I have been fairly happy with the way the dnr/nrc has worked with the trappers in this state regarding trapping issues in recent yrs.


Dirty Steve: I can't agree with you on the above sentence ! They took away the two day trap check and snaring. Yet have changed to a no closed season on coyotes. I would think the two day trap check would be easier for the public to accept than the starving of pups for how many days if their parents are killed. Jim


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

James Dymond said:


> Dirty Steve: I can't agree with you on the above sentence ! They took away the two day trap check and snaring. Yet have changed to a no closed season on coyotes. I would think the two day trap check would be easier for the public to accept than the starving of pups for how many days if their parents are killed. Jim


2 day trap check and snaring changed years ago not recently. The coyote hunting season has nothing to do with trapping.

There have been rule changes that have benefitted trappers in the last 3 yrs. The change to allow certain traps on beaver dams for one. They also did a nice job when they quickly fixed the issue of trapping within a safety zone. Some definitions changed in another bill which would have prevented trappers from doing so....when fixing this issue they also made it legal to bow hunt within the safety zone.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

DirtySteve said:


> Patrick it is hard for anyone to argue your opinions on paying taxes. It doesn't matter if you are a trapper, hobby farmer, mushroom hunter, honey/maple syrup producer etc..... they are all hobbies that earn income off the land and none are exempt from paying taxes. The push to recognize trapping as a commercial activity federally and telling us we have been lied to as you have stated seems like a non issue. I have never viewed my trapping as non commercial and i have always viewed my trapping as a hobby/recreational activity. I also don't feel a need for leverage with the dnr like you have stated. I have been fairly happy with the way the dnr/nrc has worked with the trappers in this state regarding trapping issues in recent yrs.


Nobody is pushing for trapping to be recognized as a commercial activity federally. TRAPPING AND FUR HUNTING ALREADY ARE RECOGNIZED AS BEING COMMERCIAL ACTIVITIES FEDERALLY BECAUSE THE STATE OF MI ALLOWS THE PELTS TO BE SOLD INTO INTERSTATE COMMERCE. There is no push for anything. This is a fact of law already. The DNR has lied ever since that 1948 Toomer v. Witsell ruling. They want fur harvesting to be considered "recreational" so they can legally control and manage people instead of wildlife, but they know if fur harvesting were to ever become truly "recreational" in accordance with the definition given by the Supreme Court ruling it would end almost all fur harvesting as there would be no access to any of the markets as selling furs would be illegal.

Steve, I disagree with your statement that we don't need leverage with the DNR, the NRC, and the Legislature. I feel we do. Their position on snares/cable restraints is unfounded and is being pushed by the more politically powerful dog hunting associations. They won't even consider snares/cable restraints that meet the guidelines of the BMP process that the IAFWA approved. There is no basis for it other than the dog owners, who fear their valuable dogs will become restrained, can't or won't control their dogs and where they go. Which by the way is against the law. A law which the DNR refuses to enforce. I agree with another poster about the disparate treatment trappers received in regards to the new "No Closed Season" for hunting coyotes while regulating those who would trap a coyote to a regulated season. If it was a matter of truly managing the coyote, there should have just been a "No Closed Season" on the coyote, period! It shouldn't have mattered how a person kills a coyote just that we are killing them. That is provided that coyote management was the real objective. Without any biological facts to support their actions the DNR and NRC have prevented trappers from trapping bobcats on public lands in northern lower MI for the past several years yet have continued without interruption allowing an unlimited take of bobcats by all hunters on those same public lands. Public lands that we all own. And some of those hunters are actually commercial guides. Additionally, I am not in favor of the DNR or NRC determining that trappers in northern lower Michigan should only have a 10 day season for bobcats in December when the pelts are not prime yet, as opposed to 10 to 60 days for hunters in January and February when the pelts are at their best. This bobcat issue is not about bobcat management, rather it is the micro management of people. This is the type of management you get when fur harvesting is managed by the State as a "recreational activity" instead of managing the harvest based on the legal definition of the harvest activity which is "commercial". It is this same type of management (for recreation) that gave us "bag limited" species. Bag limits have nothing to do with wildlife management. Bag limits are nothing more than the micro management of people. For example; lets say we have, on average, an annual sustainable harvest of 50 bobcats in Units C, D, E, and F. Why the different seasons and season lengths for hunters and trappers? Why not set one 90 day season for everybody at the same time and let the free market and your individual ability determine if, when, and how you harvest your 1 bobcat? Along that same line of thought, why have bag limits at all? Apparently we don't need them. If the average annual harvest of 50 bobcats in Units C, D, E. and F is high enough without it negatively impacting the bobcat population what does it matter who harvests them, how they are harvested, or how many each individual harvests? All that is relevant is that an optimum harvest takes place without detriment to the overall bobcat population. For those of you who want to fur harvest in another state, having a bag limited specie instead of having a seasonal quota system for a specie, can bite you in the behind in another state based on how they enforce their "reciprocal" laws.

On the flip side of this line of thought, I also don't like the DNR, NRC, or Legislature prohibiting the hunting and shooting of Fisher, Marten, Mink, Otter, and Badger. These are furbearers. If trappers can harvest them, fur hunters should be able to as well. Of course, common sense should dictate a prohibition against shooting any specie while it is in the water.

Yes, I believe fur harvesters, especially trappers, need all the legal leverage they can get when it comes to dealing with the MDNR, the NRC, and the Legislature. We need to be able to negotiate from a position of power, and having the law and the U.S. Constitution on our side allows that to happen.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Bobcat regulations are under scrutiny right now. The harvest numbers have been declining for yrs. Everyone knows that trappers are far more efficient at taking bobcats than hunters. It makes sense that we get a limited time period.

As far as coyotes being trapped yr round that could happen if there is a real push for it. I am not aware if there is. The predator hunters have been asking for year round hunting and they now have it. If you want year round trapping maybe you should be asking for it.....

The cable restraint issue is another example of the dnr/nrc listening to the wants of the people. You are correct. The bird and hound hunters lobbied for it. It is a case where the people that benefit from it outweigh the people it hinders. I really don't think you are ever going to win that battle in this state right or wrong.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Another point I think you are missing is that the state can call us recreational trappers. They have the right to deem status and control licensing for commercial vs recreational. They do this for honey and maple syrup producers. They set a standard for the amount of sales you have to achieve before you have to follow any federal guidelines. I don't see why trapping would be any different if we tried to use federal regulation as leverage.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

DirtySteve said:


> Another point I think you are missing is that the state can call us recreational trappers. They have the right to deem status and control licensing for commercial vs recreational. They do this for honey and maple syrup producers. They set a standard for the amount of sales you have to achieve before you have to follow any federal guidelines. I don't see why trapping would be any different if we tried to use federal regulation as leverage.


Dirty Steve, according to Adam Bump the MDNR has no clue as to what the bobcat population of MI is. As a taxpayer, and outdoorsman, I find that appalling. That is nothing short of horrendous wildlife management. If the populations are declining, then why eliminate just the trapping of the bobcat on public lands instead of doing what is in the best interest of the resource and prohibit all harvesting of bobcats for a set number of years? Without a seasonal quota there apparently are enough bobcats in northern MI, on public lands, for an unlimited harvest by hunters so why not allow trapping as well?

As far as your comments concerning the fact that trappers are more efficient at harvesting bobcats quicker than hunters, so what? If management of the bobcat, or any other specie, is the legal responsibility of the State, then maybe the State should focus on that and stop micro managing people. Set a seasonal or management unit quota, set the season dates, and get out of the way. It is not the constitutional responsibility of the State to ensure the everybody has an equal chance at winning an award.

I have been very vocal about having a "No Closed Season" status for the coyote ever since they put a season on them.

As for the snaring/cable restraint issue, yes there is a way in which to POSSIBLY get it back to what we used to have. Think about it. 

Don't get confused here; Yes, the State can call us recreational trappers all they want, but only until somebody challenges it in federal court. States enact and enforce illegal laws every day. And by using Executive Orders, Governors and Presidents enact illegal acts as well. That is why we have a judicial system. The judicial system reins them in when they over reach their authority. And there is a huge problem when a State deems an activity as being "recreational" while allowing that activity to openly take part in interstate commerce, and the State violates the constitutional rights of certain individuals who want to have parity while engaging in that same activity.

There is a huge difference between federal regulation and using constitutional law for leverage. We need to focus on using constitutional law as leverage.


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## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

Hey Pat. Do us a favor. Go back to my reply at the top of page 2_ and quote me again like you did once before._ The truth really is worth repeating and maybe you'll pick of some of it a second time.
Maybe not.


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

In whos mind!!


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## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

I not only know what I'm talking about, I even know what YOU'RE talking about. You've used a number of approaches to "educate" the masses. *Insults* (Hobby trappers are tax cheaters.)...*Guilt *(Trappers KILL for fun.)...*Fear* (Recreational trappers are hurting trapping.)...*Lies* ( Trapping as commercial is "good for all trappers.")...and *Threats* ( Antis will end all trapping unless it is commercial.) _None of it is working._ Your frustration is obvious because you have failed at your purpose. Have you looked into counseling yet? 
You came on here to promote the views fed to you by a handful of self-serving commercial trappers. You portray yourself like some kind of savior of trapping who is going to enlighten/educate the ignorant masses for THEIR own benefit. Well, you're clapping for yourself dude, because nobody here is buying what you're selling. Trapping is what it has been and will continue to be. 
Have a very nice day... somewhere else.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

Multibeard, I'm glad to hear you are a hobby trapper, and one that knows the correct terminology. Hobby trappers are the backbone of the entire industry. I have nothing against hobby trappers. I hope you didn't think I did, because I have never stated anything remotely close to that.

And yes, I have plenty of interest other than trapping.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

DFJISH said:


> I not only know what I'm talking about, I even know what YOU'RE talking about. You've used a number of approaches to "educate" the masses. *Insults* (Hobby trappers are tax cheaters.)...*Guilt *(Trappers KILL for fun.)...*Fear* (Recreational trappers are hurting trapping.)...*Lies* ( Trapping as commercial is "good for all trappers.")...and *Threats* ( Antis will end all trapping unless it is commercial.) _None of it is working._ Your frustration is obvious because you have failed at your purpose. Have you looked into counseling yet?
> You came on here to promote the views fed to you by a handful of self-serving commercial trappers. You portray yourself like some kind of savior of trapping who is going to enlighten/educate the ignorant masses for THEIR own benefit. Well, you're clapping for yourself dude, because nobody here is buying what you're selling. Trapping is what it has been and will continue to be.
> Have a very nice day... somewhere else.


DFJISH, now you have crossed into the realm of possible slander and defamation of character. If I were in your shoes I would chose my words very carefully from this point forward. I never stated that "Hobby trappers are tax cheaters." I stated that trappers who don't claim their trapping income when filing their taxes as required by law are tax cheaters. Nor did I state that "Trappers KILL for fun." I asked you if that was what you were saying, and I also pointed out how the antis view the phrase that trappers "trap for the fun it". I have never stated that "Recreational trappers are hurting trapping." I have stated numerous times that when trappers are saying that trapping is recreational when it is actually commercial is hurting trapping. I also stated that IF trappers were ever forced into real recreational trapping they wouldn't like it because they wouldn't be able to sell their catch. And I never stated that "Antis will end all trapping unless it is commercial." I warned that the antis are using the information (that trapping is already considered commercial) that I shared with the readers against us already in a couple of States and in one federal court. There is a huge difference between what I stated and what you are claiming I stated. Your reading comprehension appalls me. You might want to check into some remedial reading classes. So NO, you, in my opinion, do not know what you are talking about. From my perspective you are the one who has failed at your purpose and your frustration is clearly obvious to all who read your blathering personal attacks as you use no facts in any of your statements.

And no, I did not come on here to promote the views that were supposedly fed to me by a handful of self-serving commercial trappers. Hate to burst your bubble little man, but I was the one who began informing trappers, including those so-called self-serving commercial trappers, on Trapperman.com about this topic. So you see, you have it all backwards as usual. I learned of this information while taking a couple of law classes in college. I was curious as to why trapping was considered recreational so I started doing some legal research. You know, practicing due diligence and not believing everything the government shoves down our throats. Haven't I encouraged everybody to do their own research into what I have stated? Haven't I told people where to look for the information in question? Have you provided any concrete legal evidence to refute my claims or that the readers could use to further educate themselves? 

No, I am not some kind of savior of trapping, nor have I ever portrayed myself as such. I'm just an older trapper who is trying to help educate other trappers and fur hunters about something I discovered while doing some legal research so trappers and fur hunters could possibly better defend our industry. What people choose to do, if anything, with this information is up to them. I have shared the information with my fellow trappers and fur hunters and that is all I can do.


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

hobby trappers also sell their fur so what does that make us. Most times the $$ did not cover expenses.
I am not sure that was the correct terminology because after the first couple of your posts I quit reading most of them.
I also worked and managed one of the biggest fur sales in the state for a number of years. What class does that put me in as that was for sure a commercial operation. I got paid for my time working at the sale.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

multibeard said:


> hobby trappers also sell their fur so what does that make us. Most times the $$ did not cover expenses.
> I am not sure that was the correct terminology because after the first couple of your posts I quit reading most of them.
> I also worked and managed one of the biggest fur sales in the state for a number of years. What class does that put me in as that was for sure a commercial operation. I got paid for my time working at the sale.



Had you read the definition the IRS uses, that I gave, you would have seen that hobby trappers and fur hunters are considered commercial. If you sell fur you are engaged in commerce so it is commercial.

Well Multibeard, I would guess that you were either an employee or an independent contractor. Talk to your CPA or the IRS.

DFJISH, I forgot to inquire in my last response to you about who the ignorant masses were that you were referring to? There is nothing wrong with being ignorant about something. I, myself, am ignorant about many things. But on this issue, it appears I know what I am talking about as I have run this past more than a couple of lawyers who specialize in this area of law. BobMo also has done likewise, so it isn't just my opinion.


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

To be honest with you I do not give a darn about what you are preaching. At this time in my life I am not worried about what you think or the IRS.


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

multibeard said:


> To be honest with you I do not give a darn about what you are preaching. At this time in my life I am not worried about what you think or the IRS.


I'm at a loss what is this thread really about? Reciprocity regulations? Never seen a thread with so much leg.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)




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## Anita Dwink (Apr 14, 2004)

Nothing like Trolling the Trapping Forum during the slow period. In before it gets locked.


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

dead short said:


> funny got it


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

I have not figure it out either. I do not understand what the starter of the threads addenda with it is actually about. Last I looked at his/her thread participation they only posted on once on one other thread.


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## BigJoe. (Jul 6, 2015)

And I thought trapping early coyotes was a hot topic!


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## furandhides (Jul 3, 2008)

Just more for people to argue about, seems as if that s what a lot of the trappers forums are all about. Another venue to pick a fight. Road rage.


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## BigJoe. (Jul 6, 2015)

Road rage, I like that term Roger. This topic would be better resolved with a cold one at the NTA convention!


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## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

Well, these issues sure won't be resolved at any NTA convention. The 2 big time commercial trappers who support them HATE the NTA and anything affiliated with it with vocal passion.


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