# Open Carry Seminar



## bowhuntr81 (Sep 13, 2007)

There's going to be a free open carry educational seminar at the Flint Gander Mountain on 11 Sept 10, from 3-5pm. It's being given by John Roshek, www.johnroshek.com He will be in the Novi Gander Mountain the following week, 18 Sept. Seems the information would be good. Thought I'd pass it along in case some here may be interested.


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## bowhuntr81 (Sep 13, 2007)

Just a reminder bump, this seminar is a week away fro anyone interested in learning about open carry. Whether you like it or not, knowledge is a tool.


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

If it was around me & I was able, I'd go.


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## BR549 (Feb 5, 2006)

Not much to know. Open carry is not illegal in Michigan, therefore it's legal. You can walk down the street with a handgun in a holster all day long. Once you enter a vehicle, it's considered concealed, so unless you have a CCW permit, you must unload the weapon and case it for transport.


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## flinch (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm sure the seminar will get into the rest of it as well, open carrying in PFZs with a cpl, interacting with the general public, interacting with police and your rights, retension issues, etc.


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## Musty Mariner (Aug 25, 2009)

BR549 said:


> Not much to know. Open carry is not illegal in Michigan, therefore it's legal. You can walk down the street with a handgun in a holster all day long. Once you enter a vehicle, it's considered concealed, so unless you have a CCW permit, you must unload the weapon and case it for transport.


 yeah your right but there is a lot more to it than that.


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## Musty Mariner (Aug 25, 2009)

bowhuntr81 said:


> There's going to be a free open carry educational seminar at the Flint Gander Mountain on 11 Sept 10, from 3-5pm. It's being given by John Roshek, www.johnroshek.com He will be in the Novi Gander Mountain the following week, 18 Sept. Seems the information would be good. Thought I'd pass it along in case some here may be interested.


 anything coming up in the macomb county any time soon? my education on o/c is good but i would still like to here what you have to say.


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## bowhuntr81 (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm not personally doing the seminar, just passing along the information for any interested. Not sure if there are any coming to the Macomb county area or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

Folks:
Open carry is a terrible idea unless you are in a rural area. If fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the people that are encouraging this aren't shrewd anti-gun folks.

1. You are giving away the element of surprise, one of your best assets and one of your biggest advantages in a real gun fight. 

2. Guns make people uncomfortable. That's a fact. It is not doing anything positive in terms of garnering support to pro-gun causes.

3. You are not emboldening our rights. You are drawing negative attention to yourself. You are delusional if you don't realize this.

I open carry when I am hunting, hiking, camping, etc. I would never even consider open carry in any kind of urban or suburban environment. Nothing could be more stupid.


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## SNAREMAN (Dec 10, 2006)

amon said:


> Folks:
> Open carry is a terrible idea unless you are in a rural area. If fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the people that are encouraging this aren't shrewd anti-gun folks.
> 
> 1. You are giving away the element of surprise, one of your best assets and one of your biggest advantages in a real gun fight.
> ...


So you conceal carry,or do YOU find that "stupid" also?While I don't oc,it is a right,and who am I (or you)to tell others they can't?As far as your first reason,seems to me that "bad guys" would be looking for an easy target,they see the gun,and move on(PLENTY of sheep to pick from) 2lenty of people who are uncomfortable/disslike hunting,trapping even fishing,should we bow-down to them also (hell,those are'nt even rights)?3:just had an issue in royal oak where the city thought it could make up its own gun laws,guess what,no mass shootings,no children hurt ect..Seems pretty positive to me.Also,what about 18-20yr olds who can't get a CPL,should they not have the right to protect themselfs?Really wish more people would stand up for all rights and not just the ones THEY choose to exercise.


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

SNAREMAN said:


> So you conceal carry,or do YOU find that "stupid" also?While I don't oc,it is a right,and who am I (or you)to tell others they can't?As far as your first reason,seems to me that "bad guys" would be looking for an easy target,they see the gun,and move on(PLENTY of sheep to pick from) 2lenty of people who are uncomfortable/disslike hunting,trapping even fishing,should we bow-down to them also (hell,those are'nt even rights)?3:just had an issue in royal oak where the city thought it could make up its own gun laws,guess what,no mass shootings,no children hurt ect..Seems pretty positive to me.Also,what about 18-20yr olds who can't get a CPL,should they not have the right to protect themselfs?Really wish more people would stand up for all rights and not just the ones THEY choose to exercise.



Maybe try think about it objectively:

1. If you carry a gun openly, you are a mark. You look completely out of place and out of your element, because you are. Of course I carry with a CPL. That's the whole point.

2. What if you actually shoot someone in self defense? Jury sees you were carrying a gun on your hip. Jury thinks you were spoiling for a fight considering that anyone with a clean record can carry a concealed weapon. Remember who tend to make up urban juries. Trust me, they aren't your peers, and cops will be no help during the investigation--most consider this brandishing. You will probably go to prison. 

3. The rights of 18-20 year olds. Perhaps the CPL law should be extended to them. That's the obvious solution.

4. Open carry is not a right or a law. There is simply no law against it--that's a tremendous difference and the biggest misunderstanding here. I guarantee that will change soon if people continue to flaunt it, rub it in people's faces, and generally abuse it. 

5. The "protest" at Farts Beats and Eats has backfired. You have turned an entire group of people that were ambivalent or (thankfully) ignorant into a group of people against us. Just because no one was killed? That's supposed to be the barometer of success? That whole Royal Oak debacle made gun proponents--all of us--look like immature children with ***** issues. I would say the bad press, which was national, was an overwhelming negative. 

6. If you have a clean record, then you can get a CPL. If you can't get the CPL, maybe you shouldn't carry. 

To the vast majority of people, the perception is that this is an ego thing. That's what this is all about, to show the world what a badass you are. With all the strong negatives, why on earth would to open carry if there is the CPL option?


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## SNAREMAN (Dec 10, 2006)

I understand what you are saying,but dissagree on many of the points you have made.However,I do agree that there is a good chance that we will lose the RIGHT in the near future:sad:


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## ibthetrout (Sep 24, 2003)

amon said:


> Folks:
> Open carry is a terrible idea unless you are in a rural area. If fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the people that are encouraging this aren't shrewd anti-gun folks.
> 
> 1. You are giving away the element of surprise, one of your best assets and one of your biggest advantages in a real gun fight.
> ...


So you open carry as well and somehow it's ok if done in the right place at the right time. Can I have your phone number so I can call and ask you first if it's ok? What if I think you're wrong for open carrying while camping and hiking......will you please stop? It makes me uncomfortable.......


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## Diggdug (Sep 20, 2001)

Well said Amon!! I agree.


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## Musty Mariner (Aug 25, 2009)

I AM SO SICK OF ALL THE NEGATIVE ABOUT OPEN CARRY! ALL YOU PEOPLE THAT DONT LIKE IT I HOPE YOU SEE ME WITH MY 357 ON MY HIP!!!!!:evil:


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## Rootsy (Nov 1, 2006)

Maybe Amon and Diggdug would be willing to pony the $52.50 each that it is going to cost me to renew my CPL next month... Nothing like "paying" to exercise a Right.


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## bigsablemike (Apr 26, 2005)

amon said:


> Folks:
> Open carry is a terrible idea unless you are in a rural area. If fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the people that are encouraging this aren't shrewd anti-gun folks.
> 
> 1. You are giving away the element of surprise, one of your best assets and one of your biggest advantages in a real gun fight.
> ...


 

look at it this way.

if everyone who is LEGALLY able to open carry did.

how many easy targets would there be?

legal firepower would easily overcome illegal firepower.


EVERYONE WHO CAN CARRY SHOULD.


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## Diggdug (Sep 20, 2001)

Rootsy said:


> Maybe Amon and Diggdug would be willing to pony the $52.50 each that it is going to cost me to renew my CPL next month... Nothing like "paying" to exercise a Right.


Your "right" can be easily taken away, and probably will with all the open carry going on.


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

ibthetrout said:


> So you open carry as well and somehow it's ok if done in the right place at the right time. Can I have your phone number so I can call and ask you first if it's ok? What if I think you're wrong for open carrying while camping and hiking......will you please stop? It makes me uncomfortable.......


Dial 1-(com) mon-sens


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

Diggdug said:


> Your "right" can be easily taken away, and probably will with all the open carry going on.


Glad to see someone that has also thought this through.


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

bigsablemike said:


> look at it this way.
> 
> if everyone who is LEGALLY able to open carry did.
> 
> ...


Really? So where will we carry? In your car? Illegal. At work, in the Mall, at a restaurant? All private property. Keep pushing the issue and even CPL's will be banned.

Yesterday I asked a friend of mine who is a Pontiac cop what he would do if he saw someone walking down the street with a holstered gun. He said he would arrest the guy for brandishing, knowing full well that the charges will get dropped. But your gun gets siezed and held temporarily, it's on your arrest record, you go to jail for the night, it's in the paper, etc. And you have no recourse against a cop.

Why? OPEN CARRY IS NOT A LAW. THERE IS A LACK OF A LAW. And that will almost certainly change because some people can't control their ego issues.

There is simply no good reason to carry openly in an urban or suburban environment.


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

Rootsy said:


> Maybe Amon and Diggdug would be willing to pony the $52.50 each that it is going to cost me to renew my CPL next month... Nothing like "paying" to exercise a Right.


I would prefer the 52.50 fee--which is about what I spent for a cheap bi-pod the other day--over not having the right to carry a CPL. 

There are economic realities to governing counties. It's called administrative overhead, and it isn't a liberal conspiracy theory. If your decision to open carry vs. concealed carry boils down to the equivalent of $10.50 a year, I don't know what to tell you. That's a pretty sorry excuse.


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## karl (Oct 21, 2009)

First let me say that this is not a personal attack on anyone. It is however an attack on irrational lines of thought. 
OCing has never resulted in a CIVILIAN having had his gun taken from him. Hasn't happened. Cops, yes, when they are wrestling with a BG attempting to apprehend. Civilains don't wrestle attempting to apprehend. There have been studies showing that at least 60% of felons interviewed have said that they avioded commiting violent crimes against persons because someone was armed(OC). Only 40% said they would avoid commiting the crime if they thought MAYBE someone was armed (CC). More statistics are difficult to come by as it is hard to record crimes that are avoided because of OC. There are many, many instances where a CCer has used his weapon to stop a human threat, there have been only two where an OCer used his weapon outside of his home to stop a threat. Logic rather that irrational emmotions based on misinformed beliefs tells us that OCing prevents having to deploy your weapon far greater than CCing does, and that's the goal isn't it? 
Let's move on to public fear. The general public doesn't really notice much. Sad but true. I do both so I speak from experience.
Tachtical advantage. I know a little something about this as I taught this before I retired as a MP. You always hear "You'll lose your element of suprise!". The element of suprise is an offensive element. When you are attacked the attacker is not suprised, you the defender are. Sorry but I always hear those same lame arguments against OC and it's just repetition and parroting of what was heard. Just because it's been said over and over again doesn't make it so. That's the same tactic the anti's use and we scoff collectively at them but turn around and use it if we don't agree with something. 
On to the words "common sense". I submit that there is no such thing. What is knowledge to one group and considered common sense is unknown to anyone not affiliated with that group. So often I hear something written off as common sense when that is just something to say when one cannot reasonably articulate whatever position one is advocating. Further, after fact finding more often than not I have found that what was written off as common sense turned out to be non-factual anyway. OC or CC as you wish, I do both because that is my right and that is my wish.


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

karl said:


> First let me say that this is not a personal attack on anyone. It is however an attack on irrational lines of thought.
> OCing has never resulted in a CIVILIAN having had his gun taken from him. Hasn't happened. Cops, yes, when they are wrestling with a BG attempting to apprehend. Civilains don't wrestle attempting to apprehend. There have been studies showing that at least 60% of felons interviewed have said that they avioded commiting violent crimes against persons because someone was armed(OC). Only 40% said they would avoid commiting the crime if they thought MAYBE someone was armed (CC). More statistics are difficult to come by as it is hard to record crimes that are avoided because of OC. There are many, many instances where a CCer has used his weapon to stop a human threat, there have been only two where an OCer used his weapon outside of his home to stop a threat. Logic rather that irrational emmotions based on misinformed beliefs tells us that OCing prevents having to deploy your weapon far greater than CCing does, and that's the goal isn't it?
> Let's move on to public fear. The general public doesn't really notice much. Sad but true. I do both so I speak from experience.
> Tachtical advantage. I know a little something about this as I taught this before I retired as a MP. You always hear "You'll lose your element of suprise!". The element of suprise is an offensive element. When you are attacked the attacker is not suprised, you the defender are. Sorry but I always hear those same lame arguments against OC and it's just repetition and parroting of what was heard. Just because it's been said over and over again doesn't make it so. That's the same tactic the anti's use and we scoff collectively at them but turn around and use it if we don't agree with something.
> On to the words "common sense". I submit that there is no such thing. What is knowledge to one group and considered common sense is unknown to anyone not affiliated with that group. So often I hear something written off as common sense when that is just something to say when one cannot reasonably articulate whatever position one is advocating. Further, after fact finding more often than not I have found that what was written off as common sense turned out to be non-factual anyway. OC or CC as you wish, I do both because that is my right and that is my wish.


1. You said a civilian has never been arrested for OC. Please cite this statistic, because my brother was arrested and harrassed for OC about 4 years ago. Cop's word against him. It took him 5 months to get his gun back. I was also detained and harassed by a DNR officer for this about 10 years ago--in the middle of the U.P.! 

2. To expand on #2: You cite a lot of statistics. Where exactly are you getting this information? 

3. You say that no one notices OC, but yet you say that the element of surprise is an offensive one. Which one is it?

4. Common sense tells you that OC'ing around the mall filled with people of diverse backgrounds and political leanings won't further our cause. I also believe I have fully articulated my points, so that criticism doesn't hold any water with me. 

5. I'm not parroting anyone. I'm a die hard member and contributor to the NRA, but they are all about exhorting open carry--much to my chagrin. I'm speaking from the heart and from personal experience.

Folks--it's one thing to live in certain areas of Michigan, where everyone looks like you and everyone owns a gun. Out in the city, (ex. Royal Oak) there is a huge contingent of voters that really don't like people like gun owners, or are neutral. Forcing our political beliefs down their throats can only backfire. It already has, actually. 

Choose your battles wisely.


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

amon said:


> Really? So where will we carry? In your car? Illegal. At work, in the Mall, at a restaurant? All private property. Keep pushing the issue and even CPL's will be banned.
> 
> Yesterday I asked a friend of mine who is a Pontiac cop what he would do if he saw someone walking down the street with a holstered gun. He said he would arrest the guy for brandishing, knowing full well that the charges will get dropped. But your gun gets siezed and held temporarily, it's on your arrest record, you go to jail for the night, it's in the paper, etc. And you have no recourse against a cop.
> 
> ...


And since your friend knows FULL well that the person OC is well within their rights, I would love to see his badge taken and get investigated by the FBI for Color of Law. Your friend swore an oath to uphold EVERY law not just the ones he thinks are right. Your friend shouldn't have a badge because of this. What a tool!


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## karl (Oct 21, 2009)

I'll number for ease of reading:
1-I didn't say a civilian hasn't been arrested for OC. I said a civilian hasn't had his gun taken while OCing, which I followed with an explanation of how LEO's do during altercations. I thought the connection would be obvious that I meant by a BG. Sorry for the confusion.
2-Yes people have been arrested for OC. However in the last 4 years since your brothers problems there has been alot of education of PDs and municipalities in the form of Supreme Court rulings, AG opinions and high dollar judgements against individual officers and departments.
3-Stats- I'll give you a place to start. Try "Armed and Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms by James Write and Peter Rossi. Also WWW.gunfacts.info. that will get you started, there's lots miore if you're truely interested in learning something.
4-You mixed two different issues that I addressed. I said when I OC almost no one notices. That pertained to the misconception of the general public reacting in fear on an OCed weapon.
5-The element of surprise pertains to the false mantra spewed that OC loses the tactical advantage of the element of surprise. If you are attacked the only one surprised is you. Surprise is an offensive tactic, not defensive. The BG is not going to be surprised, the defender is.
6-Again with the "Common Sense". Refer to #4 "The General Public"
7-Parroting nd the NRA. As far as the NRA goes, so? As far cas parroting, when you repeat things that have been said before out of emotionally charged belief and knee jerk reaction without research and data that is what you are doing. Sorry, I didn't make up the word.
8-By OCing or CCing, I'm not forcing anything down anyones throat. The law is on my side. By trying to keep me from doing what I can rightfully and lawfully do, others would force something down my throat. R.O. is a fine example. It has been discussed in several news articles and broadcasts since AB&E that it was a bunch of hoopla ovwer nothing because that's what happened-nothing. Score one for us. 
You have your beliefs, fine. You don't want to OC, fine welcome to America, but don't try and bully others with uneducated, misinformation.


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## SNAREMAN (Dec 10, 2006)

amon said:


> Really? So where will we carry? In your car? Illegal. At work, in the Mall, at a restaurant? All private property. Keep pushing the issue and even CPL's will be banned.
> 
> Yesterday I asked a friend of mine who is a Pontiac cop what he would do if he saw someone walking down the street with a holstered gun. He said he would arrest the guy for brandishing, knowing full well that the charges will get dropped. But your gun gets siezed and held temporarily, it's on your arrest record, you go to jail for the night, it's in the paper, etc. And you have no recourse against a cop.
> 
> ...


And hopefully the citizen your "buddy"arrests hires an attourney with a little knowledge,and once he proves that your "buddys" dept.is aware that oc is legal,the citizen is set for life financialy.Also your "buddy" is a TURD and a disgrace to the badge.


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## mudvr1212 (Nov 3, 2008)

SNAREMAN said:


> And hopefully the citizen your "buddy"arrests hires an attourney with a little knowledge,and once he proves that your "buddys" dept.is aware that oc is legal,the citizen is set for life financialy.Also your "buddy" is a TURD and a disgrace to the badge.


 
Ding! Ding! Believe me, Pontiac knows ALL about the legality of OC, yet they still harrass people that do it. :rant:


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## Musty Mariner (Aug 25, 2009)

amon said:


> Really? So where will we carry? In your car? Illegal. At work, in the Mall, at a restaurant? All private property. Keep pushing the issue and even CPL's will be banned.
> 
> Yesterday I asked a friend of mine who is a Pontiac cop what he would do if he saw someone walking down the street with a holstered gun. He said he would arrest the guy for brandishing, knowing full well that the charges will get dropped. But your gun gets siezed and held temporarily, it's on your arrest record, you go to jail for the night, it's in the paper, etc. And you have no recourse against a cop.
> 
> ...


 your friend is a should not be a cop if he thinks like that! thats a good spot for him pontiac and what comes around goes anound.


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## Musty Mariner (Aug 25, 2009)

mudvr1212 said:


> And since your friend knows FULL well that the person OC is well within their rights, I would love to see his badge taken and get investigated by the FBI for Color of Law. Your friend swore an oath to uphold EVERY law not just the ones he thinks are right. Your friend shouldn't have a badge because of this. What a tool!


 THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Well at least we all know there is one bad cop in Pontiac. You guys would have never made it back in the day when EVERTONE o/c lol.


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## Rootsy (Nov 1, 2006)

To those opposed to a citizen's Right to arm themselves, how would you feel about paying a fee and obtaining a license before speaking your mind? How about paying a fee and obtaining licensing in order to attend the religious service of your choosing? 

Afterall, it has been said, "The pen is mightier than the sword"... 

BTW, I can tell Amon, that you are NOT a CPL holder... If you were you'd, by default, know that the 5 year renewal fee is NOT $52.50, but rather double that @ $105... That fee is a real thorn of contention with many CPL holders. Almost a scarlet letter... Selling your soul for the ability to carry a weapon out of plain sight.

Neither Amon or Diggdug "get it" and no amount of persuasion is going to change their minds.

Fortunately OC is legal in Michigan and has been for almost 2 centuries. Individuals who do OC, for the most part, know their rights and the law better than most LEOs. Police beware before attempting to usurp a Citizen's Right to carry these days. Most who OC also are wired and prepared for such interactions.


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## Musty Mariner (Aug 25, 2009)

Rootsy said:


> To those opposed to a citizen's Right to arm themselves, how would you feel about paying a fee and obtaining a license before speaking your mind? How about paying a fee and obtaining licensing in order to attend the religious service of your choosing?
> 
> Afterall, it has been said, "The pen is mightier than the sword"...
> 
> ...


 See this guy knows whats up. Well said Rootsy!


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## Crow Buster (Oct 18, 2005)

karl said:


> OCing has never resulted in a CIVILIAN having had his gun taken from him. Hasn't happened. .


First, I do support open carry. But you need to be careful with making large generalizations:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

I appreciate those who exercise this right for all of us in a prudent manner. Unfortunately, the folks that make the news are the ones that make us all look like idiots. Keep doing your thing, and the law or natural selection will thin out the knuckleheads.


CB


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## karl (Oct 21, 2009)

Crow Buster, Thank you for pointing that case out. I have read about it in other forums, but have also read that there are some unanswered questions involved so I didn't include it. If all is on the up and up then it would still go a long way toward proving the same point. One case. The anti's search, OC org.'s search and all they can come up with so far as I've read is one case that's dubious at this point. Who wouldn't bet those odds. More people have had the sky fall on thier head.


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