# Fish pt this am



## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

Me an my dad went out this morning. 12 parties and we drew 2nd last...keeping my streak going for last 25% every draw this season. Got a hen mallard at LST, but not much flying. 
I'd like to give a shout out to the goosebusters (I believe in zone 11) who blasted at 2 groups of geese 70-80 yards up and sailed 2 that dropped within 100 yards of me. They will make some good jerky. 
Also thanks to the guys in zone 2 that skybusted every duck that flew over and crippled 2 that will never be found. Made for a fun day watching you miss a dozen ducks while we sat in our zone with the guns in the case.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Nuff Daddy said:


> ...Also thanks to the guys in zone 2 that skybusted every duck that flew over and crippled 2 that will never be found. Made for a fun day watching you miss a dozen ducks while we sat in our zone with the guns in the case.


are you saying that party was shooting early? Late? In any case, grab your cell phone and call the RAP line if they are.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

just ducky said:


> are you saying that party was shooting early? Late? In any case, grab your cell phone and call the RAP line if they are.


Nope. Had 2 groups of mallards working us. Flew over 2 at 60 yards up on a pass and they lit them up. They also blew a few flocks that were most likely gonna finish for them but shot on the first pass. Never fired a shot after first light.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Nuff Daddy said:


> Nope. Had 2 groups of mallards working us. Flew over 2 at 60 yards up on a pass and they lit them up. They also blew a few flocks that were most likely gonna finish for them but shot on the first pass. Never fired a shot after first light.


I was confused when you said your guns were cased. figured that meant you were all done, or had not started yet.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

just ducky said:


> I was confused when you said your guns were cased. figured that meant you were all done, or had not started yet.


No point in having the guns out when the birds get shot at before they can work down.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Nuff Daddy said:


> No point in having the guns out when the birds get shot at before they can work down.


that's when I usually leave for home


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## charcoal300zxtt (Sep 8, 2011)

I hunted there last week for the first and last time, had a blast hunting with family and friends, but FP definitely gets the "Skybusting Capitol of MI" award in my book.


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## waxico (Jan 21, 2008)

Stop fighting them and find your spot on the bay. You're ready, and you'll have so much more fun duck hunting.
I did the same at Harsens 18 years ago and never looked back


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

just ducky said:


> that's when I usually leave for home


Kept hoping they would leave first. I drove 45min to get there and wanted to kill a few ducks. The 2 bonus geese were nice though.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

waxico said:


> Stop fighting them and find your spot on the bay. You're ready, and you'll have so much more fun duck hunting.
> I did the same at Harsens 18 years ago and never looked back


That's my plan. I need to do a little work on my blind and get a few decoys rigged. Then it's off to the bay this weekend. Gonna break my open water diver hunting cherry on Saturday am.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

charcoal300zxtt said:


> I hunted there last week for the first and last time, had a blast hunting with family and friends, but FP definitely gets the "Skybusting Capitol of MI" award in my book.


Yup. You'd think with only 12 parties, that the guys would let the birds work a little bit. 
I've been there 5 times this year, and watched 5 geese get hit and sail and die a half mile away. Was kinda nice being able to recover 2 today so they didn't go to waste.


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## ih772 (Jan 28, 2003)

charcoal300zxtt said:


> I hunted there last week for the first and last time, had a blast hunting with family and friends, but FP definitely gets the "Skybusting Capitol of MI" award in my book.


Its also the overcalling capitol of MI. The group that was behind Zone 22 Sunday morning called for three hours straight. If there was a bird in the air, they were calling, didn't matter if it was two miles away or not.


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## FPFowler (Mar 2, 2012)

Nuff Daddy said:


> Yup. You'd think with only 12 parties, that the guys would let the birds work a little bit.
> I've been there 5 times this year, and watched 5 geese get hit and sail and die a half mile away. Was kinda nice being able to recover 2 today so they didn't go to waste.


Lol... I had a buddy up at NQP this evening texting me the same thing. The ducks were begging to work the whole field he was in with some idiots and they were just blazing them high.... I cannot figure out why these ppl just will NOT let these birds finish when they are basically diving in. It never fails. 

Kudos to you for being the bigger sportsman and retrieving the slobs wanton waste. It's sickening watching ppl slant birds and never leave the corn (or @ fp lack thereof) to attempt retrieval. Don't let them get you down, you learn after a while to just laugh it off. Good luck on the divers, hunted yesterday and had a blast.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

FPFowler said:


> Kudos to you for being the bigger sportsman and retrieving the slobs wanton waste. It's sickening watching ppl slant birds and never leave the corn (or @ fp lack thereof) to attempt retrieval.


I've seen people do that before, but these were unretrievable for them. They were shot in 11 I believe, flew across 5,6,7 marsh and died in 3. If your not familiar with FP, that's close to a half mile.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

I guess seems how your FPFowler, you're familiar with the area.


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## AustinR (Nov 26, 2011)

ih772 said:


> Its also the overcalling capitol of MI. The group that was behind Zone 22 Sunday morning called for three hours straight. If there was a bird in the air, they were calling, didn't matter if it was two miles away or not.


I agree with you on that, I was hunting in the 20's on Sunday morning. And heard them calling the whole morning.

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## triplehooked (Dec 26, 2004)

Have similar issues with the guys I'm hunting with. I'm very green at waterfowl hunting and only have a 16ga. for now. They were blasting with their 3 1/2 mags. at distances I couldn't get close to. It was fun, but would be better to allow a bird to come in closer so I could get a shot. Think I'll be buying some decoys soon and go it alone til I can get a better gun to keep up with the Jones'....


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

The shame of this crap is that much of this behavior is learned and gets passed from one generation to the next. This Saturday afternoon is the Youth Hunt at FP. 

Many of these mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, window lickers will be teaching their children to shoot at ducks at extreme ranges. 

Some of these short bus riders think that their 3 1/2" Hypersonic/Black Cloud shells and Patternmaster chokes allow them to engage targets at rifle ranges. 

Their attitude is something to the effect: I got up early. I paid for my license and gun and shells, by god, I am going to shoot. BTW: Many of them frequent this forum.

These guys are an ammunition manufacturer's extremely damp REM sleep episode.


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## nastynate2728 (Mar 30, 2010)

triplehooked said:


> Have similar issues with the guys I'm hunting with. I'm very green at waterfowl hunting and only have a 16ga. for now. They were blasting with their 3 1/2 mags. at distances I couldn't get close to. It was fun, but would be better to allow a bird to come in closer so I could get a shot. Think I'll be buying some decoys soon and go it alone til I can get a better gun to keep up with the Jones'....


3.5's dont get you any closer to birds they just leave a bigger mark on your shoulder. I killed very many ducks with my 20 guage for a lot of years. You just need to hunt with good ethical men. You already have the upper hand by knowing these birds are to far away. If you want a dozen decoys pm me and I will give you a dozen for free!

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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

3.5" are just a handicap for those that are bad shots. Gives them a few more pellets to fling out there. My hand loads have enough energy and density to kill ducks to 55 yards. I only shoot that far if it's a bird that's already hit. I keep my shots inside 40 yards, preferably 30. 
I can guarantee you 99% of the skybusters have never shot at a piece of paper at 60 yards to see how useless their 3.5" pattern master loads really are.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Nuff Daddy said:


> I don't care if people pass shoot in the managed area. but when a group lights up a half dozen flocks when pass shooting and only cripples 2, they are sky busting. Doesn't matter if they are 30 yards up or 80 yards up. If you can't consistently kill passing birds, then wait till they put the landing gear down in your decoys. If you can consistently kill birds without crippling them at 60 yard passing shots then go for it. That's not skybusting. But if you miss/cripple 90% of birds on 35 yard passing shots, then you are skybusting.


You've just proven my point that opinons vary. With all due respect, you have a definition of "skybusting" that I've honestly never heard in all my years...that it relates to their shooting ability at normal ranges. I would respectfully disagree. Whether someone is good at swinging a shotgun and consistently killing ducks, or breaking clays, is a function of skill, which typically comes from much practice. I would personally not consider that "skybusting". I'd call that piss poor shooting, which can happen for a number of reasons.

The typical definition of "skybusting" is considered shooting at birds that are out of "normal" effective range (whatever that is).


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

dkirs said:


> What do spinners have to do with skybusting? Im not trying to knock you im just curious on what your getting at


Spinners allow "Anyone" to bring in a duck, no skill is necessary. So when the ducks get used to all of the spinners and start avoiding them, they fly HIGH to avoid getting shot. So rookie who is getting frustrated tries to stretch his barrel, lacking the knowledge to call and proper decoy placement.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

just ducky said:


> The typical definition of "skybusting" is considered shooting at birds that are out of "normal" effective range (whatever that is).


That's what I was getting at. Everyone's effective range is different. People need to know their limits and stay within them...Whether its 30 yards or 60 yards. I'm not an amazing shot so I keep my shots less than 35 yards. Even though I know the gun/load I'm using is lethal to 50yds if the pattern is on the bird. So for me, a 50 yard shot is skybusting...for you it may not be though.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Nuff Daddy said:


> ...but when a group lights up a half dozen flocks when pass shooting and only cripples 2, they are sky busting. Doesn't matter if they are 30 yards up or 80 yards up....


Not trying to be argumentative, but you said this above...which is what had me confused. I get what you're saying about effective shooting range. But if you did a poll here or anywhere else, and you asked if taking a 30 yard shot was skybusting, I would guess 99.99% would say it is not. What you're really getting at is some people need more shooting practice because they can't hit ****, which is a WHOLE other problem, and I think we would all agree with you on.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

just ducky said:


> Not trying to be argumentative, but you said this above...which is what had me confused. I get what you're saying about effective shooting range. But if you did a poll here or anywhere else, and you asked if taking a 30 yard shot was skybusting, I would guess 99.99% would say it is not. What you're really getting at is some people need more shooting practice because they can't hit ****, which is a WHOLE other problem, and I think we would all agree with you on.


I understand what your saying. I guess my definition of skybusting is "shooting and what you can't consistently hit." If you a bad shot, wait till the birds are feet down. And where you want them to land. I guess if you miss them then, then it's not skybusting...your just a $#!tty shot. Lord knows I've missed my fair share of decoying birds though.


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

As far as "skybusting" this get's brought up every year. One person's definition of "skybusting" is not another person's. And I caution those of you who look at birds over another area and automatically say "they're skybusting". It's very, very difficult to ACCURATELY determine how high birds are over another area, even if it's only a few hundred yards away. Tell ya what...go hang a real life size duck silo (or even a robo body) from a tree or something so that it's say 40 yards up, then go about 200-300 yards distant, and take a look. You'd be surprised at how high it actually looks.

Myself personally, I do a lot of long distance rifle shooting, bow hunting, skeet/clay shooting so I feel I am fairly experienced at judging distances. I often take a rangefinder and guess tree lines distances to help me judge long ranges. I always try to scale things (usually in reference to a football field). I judged that goose by the height above the corn in relationship to the height of the corn itself. I was in the same height corn and it was roughly 6-8 feet above the water. With that scale factor, you can roughly judge the distance the birds are above them.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Nuff Daddy said:


> I understand what your saying. I guess my definition of skybusting is "shooting and what you can't consistently hit." If you a bad shot, wait till the birds are feet down. And where you want them to land. I guess if you miss them then, then it's not skybusting...your just a $#!tty shot. Lord knows I've missed my fair share of decoying birds though.


I would agree, but I would go a step further...if someone is duck hunting, and they *consistently* have trouble hitting birds that are 30 yards out, feet down over the dekes, then they need to join a shooting club with a sporting clay range and practice, practice, practice  We all miss some "gimmees", but to do it consistently requires a certain skill level :lol:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Matthuntsall said:


> ...I always try to scale things (usually in reference to a football field). I judged that goose by the height above the corn in relationship to the height of the corn itself. I was in the same height corn and it was roughly 6-8 feet above the water. With that scale factor, you can roughly judge the distance the birds are above them.


I do too. But again, looking across distances, it can be deceiving. 

An old trick that many have posted before...not for height...but for distance out from your blind or position...before you start hunting, pace off or range find 40 yards out from your blind or position and place your farthest decoy there. That way when birds come by, if they're over or inside that decoy, you have a gauge.  It also helps you determine height when they come over...some. One trick an oldster taught me years ago on mallards is look for their eyeball...when you can clearly see their eyeball, they're in range. I'm sure there are other tricks.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

just ducky said:


> I would agree, but I would go a step further...if someone is duck hunting, and they *consistently* have trouble hitting birds that are 30 yards out, feet down over the dekes, then they need to join a shooting club with a sporting clay range and practice, practice, practice  We all miss some "gimmees", but to do it consistently requires a certain skill level :lol:


I agree with you 100% on this. I was referring to pass shooting. Anything over the decoys is not sky busting. 

I have a little story on missing "gimme" shots. Early gooses season on the sag bay...it's me, my buddy, and my dad. This is my dads first ever goose hunt, and he has never shot o goose or duck before. Called in a flock of 8 geese and got them feet down in the decoys about 25-30 yards out. When the lead birds touched the water, I called the shot. We all stood up guns a blazing. Once it was all said and done, me 0/3...my buddy "four shot Fini" 0/4...my dad 2/3. Guess I got a little goose fever


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

Also, I tend to shoot skeet/clays at least once a week all summer and consider myself a good shot. I try not to shoot at birds over 35 yards. Also I think people think they are better shots than they are, but I think the main problem is people tend to think that their gun/ammo is effective much further than it is. People who say they shoot 60 yards "effectively" better be shooting 10 gauges with tungsten, because steel does not hold velocity out to that range WITH ANY LOAD. I have done studied velocities charts and penetration depths of a lot of different types of ammo (even the new ultra velocity stuff). It you are shooting steel even thought you have much higher starting velocities, the light steel just slows up faster and does not have much more speed/energy downrange (most were only a few yards of more effective range). Add that too tough ass duck and goose plumage/and skin that's a recipe for cripples. I hit 2 geese 2 weeks ago at roughly 25 yards with 3" 12 ga. No. 4's (yes I know that's way too small for geese), they shuddered, lost some feathers, and then laughed at me and kept flying. I don't think people realize how much steel shot sucks versus lead or anything heavier.


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## jonesy16 (Sep 19, 2011)

Mike L said:


> Spinners allow "Anyone" to bring in a duck, no skill is necessary. So when the ducks get used to all of the spinners and start avoiding them, they fly HIGH to avoid getting shot. So rookie who is getting frustrated tries to stretch his barrel, lacking the knowledge to call and proper decoy placement.


Or puts out more spinners 

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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

I had a buddy of mine " a self proclaimed shooting expert" even though its only his second year duck hunting tell me his 2" longer barrel added 10- 15 yards on his range. Really? I'll just make a 50" barrel and cover the whole 1/2 mile field then.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

jonesy16 said:


> Or puts out more spinners
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


ahhh yes...the infamous "arms race" that was discussed back when we proposed the spinner ban at SRSGA. Funny thing is one of the NRC commissioners used that same term this summer when the Harsens Island spinner ban proposal was brought up. Believe we coined a phrase three years ago :lol:


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

just ducky said:


> ahhh yes...the infamous "arms race" that was discussed back when we proposed the spinner ban at SRSGA. Funny thing is one of the NRC commissioners used that same term this summer when the Harsens Island spinner ban proposal was brought up. Believe we coined a phrase three years ago :lol:


 
Are spinners even that effective? I used one once on a private land little honey hole pond. The ducks wanted in no matter what, so I don't think it was a large factor. I was told by many people that jerk rigs were better, but they seem to be a pain in the ass to set up.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

Matthuntsall said:


> Also, I tend to shoot skeet/clays at least once a week all summer and consider myself a good shot. I try not to shoot at birds over 35 yards. Also I think people think they are better shots than they are, but I think the main problem is people tend to think that their gun/ammo is effective much further than it is. People who say they shoot 60 yards "effectively" better be shooting 10 gauges with tungsten, because steel does not hold velocity out to that range WITH ANY LOAD. I have done studied velocities charts and penetration depths of a lot of different types of ammo (even the new ultra velocity stuff). It you are shooting steel even thought you have much higher starting velocities, the light steel just slows up faster and does not have much more speed/energy downrange (most were only a few yards of more effective range). Add that too tough ass duck and goose plumage/and skin that's a recipe for cripples. I hit 2 geese 2 weeks ago at roughly 25 yards with 3" 12 ga. No. 4's (yes I know that's way too small for geese), they shuddered, lost some feathers, and then laughed at me and kept flying. I don't think people realize how much steel shot sucks versus lead or anything heavier.


Steel is definitely subpar to lead or heavier shot, but with proper work you can make a pretty deadly steel load. I started reloading this summer and learned a lot. If you've never read through "status of steel" from BPI you should. Even if you don't plan on reloading. After testing a lot of loads this summer I settled on 1 1/4oz of #3 shot. I get a little over 1450fps with it. 187 pellets, and at 55 yards I have 50% in a 30" circle. At 55 yards, a steel #3 pellet launched at 1450fps has a little over 2 ft/lbs of energy. The theoretical minimum to killing a mallard is 90 evenly spaced pellets in a 30" circle with 2 ft/lbs of energy per pellet. So basically, i run out of power and density right around the 55 yard mark. But the lead required on a passing bird at that distance is ridiculous. With some rough math, you need a 7 foot lead on a bird going 30mph directly across at 55 yards. at 40 mph that goes to 9.5 feet. With a difference of 10mph in flight I need to change my lead my 2.5 feet...which is basically the length of the effective part of my pattern. Now I don't know about you all, but I know I can't tell the difference between a duck flying 30mph and one going 40mph...that's why I would never take that shot on a bird. 
Sorry for going off on a tangent.


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## jonesy16 (Sep 19, 2011)

Matthuntsall said:


> Are spinners even that effective? I used one once on a private land little honey hole pond. The ducks wanted in no matter what, so I don't think it was a large factor. I was told by many people that jerk rigs were better, but they seem to be a pain in the ass to set up.


yes and no....they have their time and place. Some times i cant keep birds out of the spread with the spinner still going and me standing in the middle picking up decoys.....other times they want nothing to do with them....take it down....just read the birds....they can be helpful or hurtful to your spread it all depends.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Matthuntsall said:


> Also, I tend to shoot skeet/clays at least once a week all summer and consider myself a good shot. I try not to shoot at birds over 35 yards. Also I think people think they are better shots than they are, but I think the main problem is people tend to think that their gun/ammo is effective much further than it is. People who say they shoot 60 yards "effectively" better be shooting 10 gauges with tungsten, because steel does not hold velocity out to that range WITH ANY LOAD. I have done studied velocities charts and penetration depths of a lot of different types of ammo (even the new ultra velocity stuff). It you are shooting steel even thought you have much higher starting velocities, the light steel just slows up faster and does not have much more speed/energy downrange (most were only a few yards of more effective range). Add that too tough ass duck and goose plumage/and skin that's a recipe for cripples. I hit 2 geese 2 weeks ago at roughly 25 yards with 3" 12 ga. No. 4's (yes I know that's way too small for geese), they shuddered, lost some feathers, and then laughed at me and kept flying. I don't think people realize how much steel shot sucks versus lead or anything heavier.


You would be surprised how far you can kill a bird if you can keep it to head/neck shots. I folded 2 geese the last time out with #3's and they were further then I like to shoot ( I was shooting back up). They were dead on the water. Ever been spring snow goose hunting? You will consistently be taking 70 yard shots on bad days. I'm not disagreeing with you completely, just wanted to say that.


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## Nuff Daddy (Dec 5, 2012)

craigrh13 said:


> You would be surprised how far you can kill a bird if you can keep it to head/neck shots. I folded 2 geese the last time out with #3's and they were further then I like to shoot ( I was shooting back up). They were dead on the water. Ever been spring snow goose hunting? You will consistently be taking 70 yard shots on bad days. I'm not disagreeing with you completely, just wanted to say that.


Ever patterned a gun at 70 yards? There is no way that you can get the density needed to cleanly kill a bird every time. Unless you are using 3.5" 10ga.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Nuff Daddy said:


> Ever patterned a gun at 70 yards? There is no way that you can get the density needed to cleanly kill a bird every time. Unless you are using 3.5" 10ga.


Of course I haven't. I never said you could kill a bird at those distances consistently or am I condoning taking those long of shots on anything other then snows. If you go spring snow goose hunting you will understand. They are very easy to bring down.


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## Matthuntsall (Feb 21, 2013)

craigrh13 said:


> You would be surprised how far you can kill a bird if you can keep it to head/neck shots. I folded 2 geese the last time out with #3's and they were further then I like to shoot ( I was shooting back up). They were dead on the water. Ever been spring snow goose hunting? You will consistently be taking 70 yard shots on bad days. I'm not disagreeing with you completely, just wanted to say that.


I only go for head/necks on geese. Cause I never shoot anything larger than no. 2's. Most birds I lead a little further too for head shots.


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