# 20ga Vs 12ga Turkey loads



## inland44

Im looking for some feedback on the subject. Contemplating a new turkey gun for spring, probably a Mossberg combo trukey/slug gun.


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## Cpt.Chaos

If you are puchasing a gun solely for turkey hunting, go with the 12. Taking a turkey is all about getting the maximum number of pellets in the kill zone with your first, and almost always, only shot. The 12 gauge has many more available loads/options available for turkey hunting as well.


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## Bountyhunter

Here's a Little of My Experience with my 20​I don't know much about 20 vs. 12 for turkey, but I'll tell you what I do know. I have a Mossberg 500 20 gauge with a smooth and rifled barrel. I have yet to even shoot at turkey, but I know it will kill it. I have an Undertaker super full choke.(blows chipmunks to pieces:lol

That is about all for turkeys. Opening day for deer I killed to with sabot slugs and the rifled barrel. It was devistating. Broke the 4 point's shoulder at 5 yards, got lungs and heart. I watched him crash about 20 yards away. Then I shot a doe at 50 yards and it was a heart and lung hit too. My slug barrel has a cantilever mount and a 2.5x 20mm scope. I'm shoot ing great at 75 yards and could probably touch 100 if I had to.

I've only hunted for 4 years and have not used a 12, but my 20 has been great. I wouldn't trade it for a 12. Sure a 12 is more powerful, but you really don't need a 12 if you have an accurate gun. I think this is mostly your call, inland. I don't have a recommendation.(other than the mossberg 500) All I'm trying to say, is you can still be deadly with a 20 gauge.

PS: The 500 comes in 12 or 20, and even .410.


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## jackbob42

My grandson and I use a 20ga Mossberg also.
We kill turkeys every year.


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## DEDGOOSE

I have been shooting a 20 now for three years exclusively. The 20gauge is a formidable with the new choices in ammo and chokes. A common misconception is that the12 gauge is more "powerful" which it is not, 2 equal sized pellets traveling the same speed regardless of gauge have the same lethality at equal ranges. 

What the 12 gauge does possess over the 20 is overall pellet count. A common thought in the turkey gun arena is that when your gun cannot place 100+ pellets in a ten inch circle you have achieved maximum range. The 12 gauge having more pellets to begin with plays into the law of averages and thus is easier to surpass this 100 pellet count at given ranges. IMO turkey targets are totally worthless as they only show a small portion of the pattern and only one actual pose of numerous that a turkey could present at the moment of truth. 

With all this being said, I will take a 20gauge that the owner has taken the time to pattern with various chokes and loads over a 12 gauge with lead shot everyday of the week. One ammo I have had good luck with out of the 20 with a PureGold 555 choke is H 13. With some lots of this ammo my 20gauge will routinely place 140 pellets in a ten inch circle at a tape measured 40 yards. I am willing to bet 85%+ 12 gauges with some old extra full turkey choke and lead ammo would struggle to attain these numbers. 

Last year I shot a different brand of ammo out of the 20 gauge and attained patterns similiar to the one pictured below with both a Pure Gold 555 and Tru Glo SSX 550. 238 pellets in a ten inch circle is way overkill on turkeys and even with thorough testing with chokes and factory ammo, very few 12s could attain these numbers. 












So to buy a 12 or 20. I will probably never hunt with a 12 again. With the products availiable and time at the range the 20 is capable of killing turkeys beyond the ranges where it becomes "turkey shooting" and not hunting. Felt recoil is reduced considerably as well as being able to tote a lighter gun. 

If you choose to take the 20 gauge route feel free to PM me and I will do my best to advise you on where to start to greatly reduce the learning curve and save you a bunch of money.


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## inland44

dedgoose,

you have confirmed what I have long suspected, the end game to a turkey gun patterning is number of pellets in a given target area. If a well patterned 20ga can produce an overall leathal dose of pellets with in that target area what is the benifit of a 12ga?? (a turkey can only get so dead). Im courious as to your basic setup gun make and model sights and choke tubes. Do you see your rig as average, above average or top of the line? What improvements might you feel are needed? Do you pattern from a bench or from a hunting postion?

Feel free to post here I think your study is valad and others could bennifit. However if you would rather not go that route feel free to IM me.

thanks for the insite.


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## DEDGOOSE

870 26" Barrel
Knoxx Op Tactical stock
Choke: Pure Gold 555 or Tru Glo SSX 550
Ammo: Nitro Company 7s (hevi) or H 13 6s
Sights: Cheap TG 40mm Red Dot

I have done nothing fancy with this gun, a barrel polishing job with J-B non embedding bore compound. The knoxx op stock was more out of choice than necessity, I love the pistol grip and the ability to shorten length of pull based on shooter. 

I wouldnt consider my gun really above average by any means seeings that I have done nothing special to the gun except the home made polishing job. The results that I have experienced are somewhat average in comparison to folks I know shooting similiar ammo and choke tubes. I have seen guns pattern a touch better than mine. 

As for the chokes in the 20 through testing a various brands from 15 to 70 dollars I believe Pure Gold produces high pellet counts as well as the most even pattern which is of equal importance. Pure Gold also offers a satisfaction guarantee in which money will be refunded or a different constriction can be exchanged to ensure satisfaction. The SSX in which the pattern above was shot with is a relatively cheap choke at 35 bucks and produces patterns equal to more expensive chokes, but in TGs infinite wisdom only produce this particular choke in the Rem threading for 20 gauges. 

As for the ammo, the Nitro 7s are just plain on another level in comparison to other factory loaded shells. Are they needed, no but they outshoot every other ammo availiable with any other choke tube. If I choose to stick with Nitro next year I will switch from the PG 555 and opt for a PG 570. The pattern above was more for show and is awfully tight for my style of hunting. I also shoot Environmetal H 13 and Environmetal 1 1/4 6 duck loads. H 13 loads produced up until 2007 produced awesome patterns and than for some reason the formula was changed. The newer loads are not consistent as evidenced by dissection on antother forum and four different wads were found in use. The waterfowl loads pattern better than the environmetal h 13 now and is consistent from shot to shot. I would not feel disadvanted at all with my gun hunting the Environmetal waterfowl loads out to 40 yds. 

Released Late last year Was Federals new 1 1/2 Heavyweight 15g/cc 7s. I have not had a chance to play with these yet but initial reports from many have been positive. I will most likely be switching to these as the 15g/cc stuff hits hard and the extra 1/4 of payload will give more pellets to work with. Pure Gold is going to release very shortly a choke tube that is designed specifically for these shells and if I know Bill it will be a keeper. Friends have shown positive results with an old REm super full (10bucks) as well as the Tru Glo SSX. 

I have shot essentially every lead 20 gauge load on the market and in my experience as well as some other 20g junkies I know, none have produced ethical patterns to 40 yds. The lead will pattern great to thirty but drops off considerably in pattern density at ranges past this. IMO lead is dead in the 20gauge if you want a bonafide 40 yd turkey gun. 

Take your patterning very seriously. I choose to fully clean the barrel after every round as my gun patterns best with a clean barrel and I choose not to have the how dirty is the bore variable from shot to shot. Wait for good weather conditions with no wind and make sure you shoot at least three of each round for comparison purposes. A few years back I was burning up some REm WIngmaster HD 1st shot 125 WOW 2nd 65 3rd 120 4th 70 etc etc The shell performed well at times but their were some definite inconsistencies from round to round. 

With the 20gauge their is no room for skimping. Heavier than Lead ammo and a quality choke are what are needed to satisfy one at 40 and beyond. 

I have played with two winchoke variety guns such as the mossberg and good results can be obtained. I personally prefer an 870 due to the increased choke offerings as well aftermarket options available. I see Remington offers a similar package as the mossberg and that is your choice. If given the choice I would opt for a 26 inch barrel over anything shorter. Longer barrels tend to be more consistent performers than short barreled guns, with that being said the best patterns I have ever seen outta the 20 was a short barreled Benelli, but that is not the norm.


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## FireDoc66

Dead is Dead. And a 20 will do the job quite nicely. I use my 20 gauge exclusively on birds. And it's pattern and range are spectacular. :coolgleam

I believe Dedgoose has done a fine job explaining it all already. 

Personally, I use a Remington SPS-T 20 gauge with a Jellyhead choke, and Hevi Shot #6's. Found it to be the right combo for my gun.


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## inland44

Very informative gentlemen and thank you so much. Now my question is this?? Favorite makes models ect.

At the moment Im looking into the 500 pump turkey/slug combo with the 3 inch camber. I thought about the 535 but cant find it in 20ga. Nor is the 930 and 935 as a camo combo in 20ga. 

Basicly Im looking for a 20ga (auto prefered pump 2nd choice) in either 3 or 3.5 chamber. Camo is not a requirement but a plus. 22 to 26 in VR brrl and slug brrl combo also a plus. I would like to keep it under $500.00 so as to put some good optics on it.


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## DEDGOOSE

inland44 said:


> Very informative gentlemen and thank you so much. Now my question is this?? Favorite makes models ect.
> 
> At the moment Im looking into the 500 pump turkey/slug combo with the 3 inch camber. I thought about the 535 but cant find it in 20ga. Nor is the 930 and 935 as a camo combo in 20ga.
> 
> Basicly Im looking for a 20ga (auto prefered pump 2nd choice) in either 3 or 3.5 chamber. Camo is not a requirement but a plus. 22 to 26 in VR brrl and slug brrl combo also a plus. I would like to keep it under $500.00 so as to put some good optics on it.


535 is only a 12 gauge offering and is essentially a 500 with a 3.5 inch chamber and that is why it is only offered in 12. 

Mossberg does not currently make a 20gauge auto and IMO the 20 g auto offerings are pretty slim outside of benelli but now we are talking 750+. 

If I were to purchase a 20g auto in that price class I would look hard at the REmington 1187 Sportsman available at Wal-Mart, most other autos in that price range are un reliable. The sportsman is a nice little gun. 

Another auto to consider is the Franchi 720.

I think however you are much better off with a pump, look at the two sports this gun is going to be used for deer and turkey. Both of which should be a one shot sport. The quick followup should not be needed with proper shot placement. The money you save can be placed into choke, optics, slugs sabot etc etc


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## Bountyhunter

I already gave you my favorite. Mossy 500 20 gauge combo barrel. You for sure want a 3" chamber. You can get this for less than $500.

I don't know if a pump would be any more accurate than a semi-auto or not. I like pumps just for the unmistakeable sound.

I'm suprised at how many suggested a 20 gauge.


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## omega58

Beretta 3901 comes in 20 gauge. . .great all around gun, my wife uses her's for turkey. I found it at Dick's for $454 on clearance, then $80 back in scorecard points. 

You should be able to find one for around $600-$650. . . maybe less used.

There are a few on gunbroker and other sites. 


You don't need any optics for a turkey gun. 

Some other 20 autos to consider:

Mossberg SA-20. . .made in Turkey, but my nephew's is performing well. Basically, use a good product like Breakfree CLP or Eezox and it helps all semis. 

A few months ago, the Greenville Walmart had a Browning 20 gauge semi. Might be worth checking out to see if they still have it. . .$800 or so I think it was.

You don't need camo for a turkey gun.

I'm using my 28 gauge CG next year again. . .good to 30 yards. . .if I don't get a turkey, I don't get a turkey.


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## FireDoc66

If you do decide to go with optics, I couldn't be happier with my red dot scope. Didn't use one for years, but put it on last year and was very pleased. Here's mine;

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...parentType=index&indexId=cat601233&hasJS=true

Whatever you choose to do, I believe you'll enjoy using a 20!


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## cantonrat

Be conservative, and go with the 12ga, and with the 3-1/2" if you want the heaviest loads. Not sure if it's available now, but I originally finish-patterned my 870 with the Rem HeviShot #6 (bought extra at the time, still in my stock), and it fills the pattern chock full at 40 yards, and throws a lethal pellet count at 50 yards, over 100 pellets in the 10", and this with a $29 Cabelas HeviShot choke.

I certainly appreciate Dedgoose's hard work at making the 20ga world class, but for those of us not able to put in that type of regular range work and time, we can more quickly close the loop by throwing more shot, and the 12ga does that, I believe. 

But yeah, if I was a range hound, and pounding away a lot regularly, you'd better believe I'd shoot a 20ga. Patterning and testing a dozen flavors of shell in that 12ga 870 like to dislocate my shoulder a few times.  

And yeah, I agree that lead is dead, or at least doesn't perform nearly as well as the Hevi. YMMV.


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## EdB

A well patterned 20 in a skilled shooters hands will kill a turkey no doubt. But if you going to buy either a 20 or a 12, you should buy a 12. It's going to be a more versatile gun since you can use it for waterfowl too. It also gives the shooter more room for error. Not every turkey you get a chance at is going to stand there like a statue or a target board when you take aim. If he catches a bit of your movement putting the bead on him and starts to move away or bob his head when your pulling the trigger, the extra pellets can make the difference between a kill or a cripple. A dose of adrenelin and a pounding heart rate as a gobbler gets into range can affect a hunters aim and shot sometimes too. Hunting situations are a lot more variable than going to a range and that's when a 12 gauge can give you an edge over a smaller gun.


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## Topshelf

Buy the 12 ga
Upside:
1 More pellets down range no matter what your shooting at
2 More versitle to use in other applications like pheasant, duck, deer, etc
3 Price is better due to the shear volume sold every year
4 Price of shells is cheaper due to volume sold
5 Price of aftermarket parts like barrels, stocks are cheaper and more readily available than the 20 ga parts.
6 If you get an auto loader then the recoil is not really an issue

Downside:
1 none.

Bennelli's are nice, 1187's / 1100's are tough to beat. 
I have an 835 Mossberg pump with two barrels. One is a cantilevered rifled slug with 3x9 scope and the other is a 28 inch tubed barrel. I probably have less than 350 into it including scope, choke tubes and sling. 

All can be had used and in primo shape if you shop around some and don't jump on the first thing you see. Check out the Michigan Gun Owners site


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## don

Thought I had the perfect turkey gun and loads until I began reading some of Dedgoose's findings on the 20 gauge last year. For several years I used the 12 gauge Wingmaster 870 pump/Rhino choke/and a Red dot site in combination with 3 inch H378 Nitro Hevishot loads. It was devastating on toms without a doubt.
I also had a stock 20 gauge 870 Express which was seeing very little action as it was my wifes shotgun.

After reading so much on the 20 gauge findings thanks to Dedgoose, I decided to give it a try. I added a Puregold .555 choke tube, purchased some Nitro H276 loads in straight 7's, and swapped the Red dot from the 12. I did no polishing to the barrel, only a good cleaning.

The patterns to 40 yards, even longer, were unbelievable from the little 20, very much the same as what Dedgoose has posted.
That was enough for me. The 12 went down the road along with the choke and remaining loads. While the 12 may be a more versatile gauge if used for geese/deer etc, the 20 killed every bit as well as the 12 did at a distance much closer to 40 yards than 30 on a last day, highly educated and very stubborn Tom.

I'll never look back. I have a very effective, 20 gauge turkey gun that is a joy to carry in the woods on an all day, run and gun turkey hunt, and if I need to reach out there within what I call a reasonable distance of 40 yards or so if need be, I am in no way handicapped.

No more "Mr Macho" for this guy, dead is indeed dead. I am totally convinced that the "too small", 20 gauge and the proper loads/choke tube combination will efficiently take down any turkey I will ever come across, just as the 12 always did.


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## inland44

Nice to see that there is still some discussion on this thread. Now at least 2 real world results showing the 20 with good choke and loads can match or exceed the capablities of the 12 in some respects. 

I guess I should have been a bit more clear in the OP, It was not so much a debate between getting a 12 or 20, but wether loads for the 2 were comprable, and so far the evidence is bearing that out.

Thanks


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## DEDGOOSE

Thank you Don you made my day I try not to make it appear as if I am pushing the 20 on folks, I just want people to understand that with with good ammo and a choke one has no disadvantage in the turkey woods. 

Albeit expensive, the Nitros are a quick fix and have never seen a pattern with them I wouldnt hunt with.. I got a bunch of Fed HW 7s for christmas and cant wait for the temp to hit 50. 

Environmetal makers of Hevi Shot too have announced a 1 1/4 load of 7s for the 20 at a smoking 1200 FPS. They should be a viable option and should produce very good patterns out to forty yards. Might switch from the Nitros myself as these two new loads should provide adequate patterns at an affordable price with ease of picking them up.


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## don

Still plenty of shells left DEDGOOSE, but I'll be looking forward to how the others work out for you. I love it when you do the "legwork".....


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## don

inland44 said:


> Nice to see that there is still some discussion on this thread. Now at least 2 real world results showing the 20 with good choke and loads can match or exceed the capablities of the 12 in some respects.
> 
> I guess I should have been a bit more clear in the OP, It was not so much a debate between getting a 12 or 20, but wether loads for the 2 were comprable, and so far the evidence is bearing that out.
> 
> Thanks





I would not debate the use of a 12 vs 20 either. The 12 has, and always will have a loyal following, and for good reason. I was one of them and will not deny their effectiveness on a variety of game. It is a very versatile guage, with lots of options, and if I needed a shotgun for all purpose use, I would still own one.

For me, the 20 and turkeys are a very happy marriage, although when season opens the stick and string will be my choice. Nice to have a viable option if Ole Tom gives me fits like he "almost" succeded in doing last year....:lol:


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## FireDoc66

Very cool, and good luck this season!


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## cantonrat

DEDGOOSE said:


> Thank you Don you made my day I try not to make it appear as if I am pushing the 20 on folks, I just want people to understand that with with good ammo and a choke one has no disadvantage in the turkey woods.
> 
> Albeit expensive, the Nitros are a quick fix and have never seen a pattern with them I wouldnt hunt with.. I got a bunch of Fed HW 7s for christmas and cant wait for the temp to hit 50.
> 
> Environmetal makers of Hevi Shot too have announced a 1 1/4 load of 7s for the 20 at a smoking 1200 FPS. They should be a viable option and should produce very good patterns out to forty yards. Might switch from the Nitros myself as these two new loads should provide adequate patterns at an affordable price with ease of picking them up.


DEDGOOSE, if you're shooting #7's, then aren't you starting out with a disadvantage from the gitgo? Sure, they'll fill up a pattern, but are those #7's lethal at 40+ yards? Would a more-sparse pattern of #6's or #5's be just as lethal?

On another board, a guy took those Nitros and shot them into a phone book, and the larger pellets in the load penetrated well, but the #7's not so well. You'd have to shoot a given load into a ballistic pendulum in order to really validate the penetration and hitting power. I suggested to the above guy that he try that, but we never got around to it, probably a tough experiment to set up. 

This isn't to say that you're wrong, just that both portions of the equation gotta be covered... pattern and hitting power.


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## DEDGOOSE

cantonrat said:


> DEDGOOSE, if you're shooting #7's, then aren't you starting out with a disadvantage from the gitgo? Sure, they'll fill up a pattern, but are those #7's lethal at 40+ yards? Would a more-sparse pattern of #6's or #5's be just as lethal?
> 
> On another board, a guy took those Nitros and shot them into a phone book, and the larger pellets in the load penetrated well, but the #7's not so well. You'd have to shoot a given load into a ballistic pendulum in order to really validate the penetration and hitting power. I suggested to the above guy that he try that, but we never got around to it, probably a tough experiment to set up.
> 
> This isn't to say that you're wrong, just that both portions of the equation gotta be covered... pattern and hitting power.


The thing that one has to realize is all of the 7s that I have recommended are Heavier than lead.. 

Federal Heavyweight 7 = 15 g/cc or 2.01349 grains per pellet
Hevi 13 7s = 13 g/cc or 1.72207 grains per pellet

whereas 

Lead #6 11.3 g/cc =1.99234 grains per pellet
Lead #4 11.3 g/cc = 3.28863 grains per pellet

I think we would all agree that lead 6s can cleany dispatch a gobbler at 40 yds. With that being said the 7 HW actually weighs more per pellet than the 6 lead. So if you have ever shot a bird at 40 with a lead 6 you can be assured even without doing math the 7 is going to penetrate better than the six. 

Now you can look at the above numbers and say, "the lead 4 weighs more thus at similiar velocity is going to produce more kinetic energy." This statement is correct. But you have to realize that we are dealing with a sphere whereas only the front surface area actually contacts the target thus the smaller pellet is generating more energy per the surface area making contact. (PSA) Pounds/Surface area Energy

For the sake of avoiding me break out a calculator I will use a comparison on another forum that shows the PSA of a smaller heavier pellet vs a larger pellet. The shot in question is TSS or Tungsten Super Shot. TSS can only be purchased as loose shot and must be reloaded. TSS is 18 g/cc and most shooting it are utilizing 9s for turkeys, yes nines. The heavier little pellet is expending its energy on a smaller surface thus increasing penetration. 

Lead [email protected] Fps
172796.84 Pounds/Surface area energy

Tss9 @ 1100 fps
169922.83 Pounds/Surface area energy

*This means that TSS #9 traveling at 1100 FPS is inflincting almost as many PSI (KE) as a #4 lead traveling 1400 fps.* Credit: Labioligist

So basically to answer this statement "This isn't to say that you're wrong, just that both portions of the equation gotta be covered... pattern and hitting power." The smaller heavier than lead shot are the answer, having your cake and eating it too. The smaller heavier pellets out pattern and out penetrate larger lead shot. 

Now the problem with large lead shot is the pattern density. The large shot takes up so much space in the wad that pattern count decreases signifgantly vs the smaller heavier shot. 

A 2oz load of lead 4s only contains 266 pellets whereas a 1 7/8 load of Fed HW 7s contains 407 pellets. Thus if you have a magic number whereas when you dip below that in your favorite sized circle the 7s with the same or better energy have the advantage over lead 4s in placing that number in your favorite circle. Basically your lead pattern will fall apart much faster than your hw pattern thus simply you will not get to use the energy you thought you had. Thus your pattern will deteriorate with large lead shot before you have run out of energy, thus why give up pattern density for energy that is waisted.

This only scratches the surface on the abilities of HTL shot and energy. Alot of the other stuff is way over my head Other advantages include retaining velocity better than large lead shot as it has less drag due to surface area and it is less effected by wind for the same reasons. 


But in laymans terms the stuff plain kills turkeys. I set a personal limit of 40 yds for myself. The gun will pattern to 50 placing enough pellets in a ten inch circle to satisfy me. That 10 yards is my buffer for range guesstimation as we all make errors at times juding yardage in varying terrain.


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## cantonrat

DEDGOOSE said:


> The thing that one has to realize is all of the 7s that I have recommended are Heavier than lead..
> 
> Federal Heavyweight 7 = 15 g/cc or 2.01349 grains per pellet
> Hevi 13 7s = 13 g/cc or 1.72207 grains per pellet
> 
> whereas
> 
> Lead #6 11.3 g/cc =1.99234 grains per pellet
> Lead #4 11.3 g/cc = 3.28863 grains per pellet
> 
> I think we would all agree that lead 6s can cleany dispatch a gobbler at 40 yds. With that being said the 7 HW actually weighs more per pellet than the 6 lead. So if you have ever shot a bird at 40 with a lead 6 you can be assured even without doing math the 7 is going to penetrate better than the six.
> 
> Now you can look at the above numbers and say, "the lead 4 weighs more thus at similiar velocity is going to produce more kinetic energy." This statement is correct. But you have to realize that we are dealing with a sphere whereas only the front surface area actually contacts the target thus the smaller pellet is generating more energy per the surface area making contact. (PSA) Pounds/Surface area Energy
> 
> For the sake of avoiding me break out a calculator I will use a comparison on another forum that shows the PSA of a smaller heavier pellet vs a larger pellet. The shot in question is TSS or Tungsten Super Shot. TSS can only be purchased as loose shot and must be reloaded. TSS is 18 g/cc and most shooting it are utilizing 9s for turkeys, yes nines. The heavier little pellet is expending its energy on a smaller surface thus increasing penetration.
> 
> Lead [email protected] Fps
> 172796.84 Pounds/Surface area energy
> 
> Tss9 @ 1100 fps
> 169922.83 Pounds/Surface area energy
> 
> *This means that TSS #9 traveling at 1100 FPS is inflincting almost as many PSI (KE) as a #4 lead traveling 1400 fps.* Credit: Labioligist
> 
> So basically to answer this statement "This isn't to say that you're wrong, just that both portions of the equation gotta be covered... pattern and hitting power." The smaller heavier than lead shot are the answer, having your cake and eating it too. The smaller heavier pellets out pattern and out penetrate larger lead shot.
> 
> Now the problem with large lead shot is the pattern density. The large shot takes up so much space in the wad that pattern count decreases signifgantly vs the smaller heavier shot.
> 
> A 2oz load of lead 4s only contains 266 pellets whereas a 1 7/8 load of Fed HW 7s contains 407 pellets. Thus if you have a magic number whereas when you dip below that in your favorite sized circle the 7s with the same or better energy have the advantage over lead 4s in placing that number in your favorite circle. Basically your lead pattern will fall apart much faster than your hw pattern thus simply you will not get to use the energy you thought you had. Thus your pattern will deteriorate with large lead shot before you have run out of energy, thus why give up pattern density for energy that is waisted.
> 
> This only scratches the surface on the abilities of HTL shot and energy. Alot of the other stuff is way over my head Other advantages include retaining velocity better than large lead shot as it has less drag due to surface area and it is less effected by wind for the same reasons.
> 
> 
> But in laymans terms the stuff plain kills turkeys. I set a personal limit of 40 yds for myself. The gun will pattern to 50 placing enough pellets in a ten inch circle to satisfy me. That 10 yards is my buffer for range guesstimation as we all make errors at times juding yardage in varying terrain.


Yes, of course I agree that for a variety of reasons, the heavier than lead calculation works in favor of Hevi and others. Lead is dead, in other words. 

I have only limited shooting range experience, and I shoot Rem Hevishot #6, because it patterned much better, independent of the force applied at impact due to increased density, which is even more bonus. There's a fair bit of size difference between #6 and #7, though, and that's the thrust of my original post above. 

I have no experience with lead #6's and turkeys, but the experience I've had with other game animals tells me that #6 lead may be too small for turkey, especially out at 40+ yards. YMMV. That's what makes me question the #7's hitting power, and as I mentioned earlier, the other guy's phone book test, and pages of penetration, told us that the #7's had limited hitting power, as opposed to the #5's and #4's blended into those Nitro loads. His pattern _looked_ full, but it was full only because of the lighter hitting #7's. I questioned the Nitro craze at the time, because of this, and the massive cost of those shells. 

I'd note that the Hevishot #7's are _lighter_ than lead #6's (although it appears that Federal's shot is heavier, per your figures). Still, I'd say we should call the lead/Hevi question a closed issue, and recommend the Hevi for turkey, because it does appear to pattern better. It's only the question of pellet size. 

While you're correct, that the energy available to be delivered in a single pellet is distributed across the cross sectional area of that pellet at the terminal point, and thus a smaller pellet, one pellet, facilitates penetration, you also have to remember that the original charge of a gun's energy, call it a constant of " E " , is distributed across the _entire_ load of pellets, of whatever size, and thus each of those smaller pellets has itself received a smaller fraction of that total/constant energy charge, as it leaves the gun. The larger pellets receive a larger fraction of that constant " E ". They will hit harder downrange, by definition, because they've been charged with greater energy at firing. And the _total_ surface area exposed to the effects of air resistance is greater with smaller pellets, as they expose more surface area across the board, so energy is scrubbed off those pellets. I'm no ballistics expert, but I do know that conservation of energy requires us to account for the total energy balance, and not just review one single pellet's performance. 



It's a never ending chore, patterning and checking for downrange energy, and largely indeterminate, I suspect. I do believe it would require that ballistic pendulum experiment, in order to generate firm data on the energy available in a pattern. You have to pattern the load/gun, then check the hitting power downrange, with the pendulum. Both would have to be known knowns, in order to evaluate the entire setup.

I can buy the #7's idea, or even #9's, if it was backed up with firm data on a pattern's total downrange hitting power, and not theoretically-based on the performance of one single pellet. 'til then, I think I'll stick with the #6's, as I know I've got both pattern density _and_ pattern lethality. You're right, 40 yards seems to be plenty, and my setup can kill at 50 if I misjudge, so we're both on the same track there.


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## Rugergundog

I like the 12 myself. When all is said and done if your buying a new gun and plan to tune the choke and ammo....the tuned 12 has more lead to sling at your turkey and given hunting conditions more lead could be more dead!

I agree if you got a 20 no sense in buying a 12, but for buying a new gun the 12 is more versative and only marginal heavier.


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