# The deer numbers down?



## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

> Bring it on over to the QDM forum, but don't forget to visit it from time to time. If you don't like what you see there, we'll refund your money!


Now thats Funny!!!!!!!!! No matter what side of the issue one might be on.

As a suggestion we might make it the QDM/youth hunt/dog hunting forum. Somebody could get a lot of bang for the their Buck in there! BTW Pardon that pun.


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## enfield (Apr 13, 2003)

I CANNOT believe that deer populations are down. Last fall I saw more dead deer along the roadside than ever before. I think we're overrun with deer!!

We need to kill more does.


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## Minnesota Lion (Apr 15, 2004)

*i know i won't make friends here with what i say here. but what the heck.you need to stop shooting so many of the bucks. i'm a member of michigan bowhunters and live in minnesota.originally from beaverton, michigan. i've seen more pope and young bucks.here in minn. in one year. then i ever seen in michigan you get to shoot way too many. you need to remove the does. i get the michgan bowhunter news paper and you see alot of guys that shoot two bucks. why not one buck and one doe. leave one for next year. if your in stand and a button buck walks up. let it walk away. i refuse to shoot a button. if you don't get your deer so what it's hunting not killing. oh you'll like this one. you hunt over bait it's legal so if your not seeing deer you don't know what your doing or you need to take a bath. and quit sitting in bars or restuants with your hunting clothes on. keep your self clean. it's not BRAIN science. sincerly roger & elaine*


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## Swamper (Apr 12, 2004)

As I avoid that thread like the plauge as the Hunter vs Hunter stuff drives me crazy. We cant be helping fight off the anti's when we fight among ourselves.

Okay, I will say one last thing before I leave this issue for fear of further rattling emotions of "hunter vs hunter"...didn't realize healthy discussion was bad for the sport.

Anyway, my theory of QDM leading to a genetically intellectually inferior deer herd does not require a mountain of research or statistics, as simple life experiences supports it. Suppose we took a kindergarten class of 30 kids, told them they could never fail a class, and graduated them 13 years later. It is obvious that many would be facing their first mental challenge in the real world, leading to more failures. The world on a daily basis is an example of the strongest mentally and physically surviving. Watch a TV show with one of these deer hunts at a QDM managed deer ranch and compare it to hunting in the wilds of northern MI...tell me which deer are harder to hunt. QDM, baiting, deer farms, winter feeding....all lead to protecting and nurturing the weakest of the herd that nature and hunters should remove. Case closed.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

swamper - there's not much correlation between qdm and "intellectually inferior/superior" deer. Look - deer in game ranches are easier to shoot because THEY'RE IN GAME RANCHES, not because of which ones are harvested. i mean, that might be the most ridiculous argument against qdm that i've heard. look - you take a 1.5 year old deer, put it in the woods when there's humans and shooting, and that deer is going to get smart, even if no one is shooting at it. they are wild animals.

unfortunately, it sounds like you're slamming qdm in an attempt for you to justify harvesting anything that you want. qdm has its advantages and its disadvantages, but hey, at least its a plan. what's your plan?


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Swamper,

The real world hunting experience comes from actually hunting in QDM areas....have you done that?

How many dumb, 3.5+ year old deer have you managed to harvest?

I think you have some severe misunderstandings of QDM...and I appreciate your statements because every time you type it allows for an opportunity for others to respond with the truth about QDM so that the truth of QDM can come out. QDM has been around for over 30 years, is used in the management of free-ranging deer in over 20 states, and QDMA membership continues to grow at around 30% each year....a testimony to the truth of QDM. The truth always comes out in the end, and truth stands the test of time.

QDM is and only is about balance:
1. Balanced buck age structure...effectively acheived with an adequate protection of yearling bucks, usually 80%
2. Populations maintaned at or below the carrying capacity of the land, usually maintaned with appropriate doe harvest
3. Adequate sex ratios, acheived with populations at or below the carrying capacity of the land with appropriate doe harvest, and a balanced age structure, effectively acheived with an adequate protection of yearling bucks

That's it. That's QDM. Those are the 3 biological necessities of QDM. Do the above 3, and you have QDM. Those 3 principles can be followed in every state, every region, every county, where whitetails rome. 

QDM is not baiting
QDM is not deer farms
QDM is not winter feeding, in fact winter feeding can promote populations above the carrying capacity of the land resulting in severe habitat degredation, so...

QDM does however, allow for the process of natural selection, in which only the strongest compete and are successful during the breeding process because of the balanced buck age structure and balanced sex ratio. This is more in line with the way nature intended it to be, as opposed to a herd made up of a substantial portion of yearling bucks that work their tails off to breed a disproportionate number of does over an extended breeding period causing decreased yearling buck health, and a less intense rut.

Don't look at this as hunter vs. hunter....look at it as traditionalism vs. health and science

We're just the messengers


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## davidshane (Feb 29, 2004)

I have always thought that most hunters were somewhat smart people, that there were only a few that are dumb slobs. I stand corrected!!! Unbelivable!

I'll try and make a couple guys here happy by not stating opinion or taking a side, I agree that a united front is the best aproach to a battle that is comming our way. I will say only that I share similar feeling with NEMinnosota and leave it at that.


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

"Okay, I will say one last thing before I leave this issue for fear of further rattling emotions of "hunter vs hunter"...didn't realize healthy discussion was bad for the sport."

You are very correct in this statement swamper, I'll give you credit for that!

I do sense that you're getting Trophy Deer Management (TDM), and QDM a little mixed up. TDM is practiced at game ranches, and the sole purpose is Larger racks. All inferior buck (antler characteristics) are removed at an early age.

QDM is about getting the herd back closer to normal, the way it suppose to be, with various age classes of bucks, and not just a bunch of 1.5 year olds that get killed off every fall.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Swamper said:


> didn't realize healthy discussion was bad for the sport.


I just think it belongs in the QDM forum. It seems like thats where those "healthy" discussions take place the most. I avoid them because there is little to be accomplished. Because in my opinion...


*Nobody will ever change anothers opinion.*
*QDM for all intentions is a voluntary initiative. *
*It is also largely a private land hunters scenario, it would not work on public lands without a mandate for enforcement. *
*The QDM mindset causes one to be concerned only with their specific localized area, one tends to think that whatever circumstances dictate in their locality are identical everywhere. ie. We have too many does in Hillsdale County,so they should decimate the population in Alcona County as well.*
I am not stating whether I am for or against QDM. (If you want to waste time you could probably find out the last time I posted regarding QDM a couple years ago ) All I am trying to say is management goals need to be applied locally with the backing of sound scientific processes. Trying to ram your personal philosophy down another hunters throat won't get the job done.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

NEMichsportsman said:


> *Nobody will ever change anothers opinion.*
> *QDM for all intentions is a voluntary initiative. *
> *It is also largely a private land hunters scenario, it would not work on public lands without a mandate for enforcement. *
> *The QDM mindset causes one to be concerned only with their specific localized area, one tends to think that whatever circumstances dictate in their locality are identical everywhere. ie. We have too many does in Hillsdale County,so they should decimate the population in Alcona County as well.*
> ...


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

NEMichSportsman - i think that most who actually practice QDM wouldn't apply the same rules from one area of the state to the other. I think people that don't practice QDM view it as a "kill doe at all costs" type of management plan.

i understand your desire to stay out of the QDM battle, but.. i'd have to agree with Neal on this one..


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

"If the majority of hunters in an area (51%) want a change, and don't get it....isn't Traditional management being rammed down their throats?"

It sure doesn't taste very good either!


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

also, if we want to eliminate the haggling that goes on at the forum - we're going to need to cut out about 75% of the topics. take a look around - qdm isn't the only battle ground. ;-)

yes, its tiring to re-hash topics time and time again. the reason that they get re-hashed, though, is because new people come, hopefully we all learn and take something away, and then the process all starts again. no matter how well we think we know the subject, i'd guess there's always another angle, or new information.

this is EXACTLY the area for battle grounds. cause when we leave this forum, we need a united front.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

QUOTE: "allowing them to spread their "stupid genes" across the rest of the herd."  

Man, I'm sitting here tapping my ruby slippers together and chanting "there's no place like home....there's no place like home" Somehow I've gotten to OZ and didn't even know I left????


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Neal said:


> If the majority of hunters in an area (51%) want a change, and don't get it....isn't Traditional management being rammed down their throats?


*My first sentence below is the key!*



> All I am trying to say is management goals need to be applied locally with the backing of sound scientific processes. Trying to ram your personal philosophy down another hunters throat won't get the job done.


I don't care what 51% of my neighbors say- many of them are idiots 

As I used to state back in the old days when I commented on QDM...I don't believe opinions matter, science is the only solution. Deer counts and harvest numbers don't exist at this time. I don't think any statewide policies should be initiated, but rather localized management plans. I don't want to be labeled as anti QDM. I am just against dealing with the health of the herd by opinions of unqualified individuals. 

I see this thread got moved into QDM. I gotta watch my step now!!!


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

NEMichsportsman said:


> I don't care what 51% of my neighbors say- many of them are idiots


One might start to percieve you as an elitist with that type of attitude.


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

NEMichsportsman said:


> *As I used to state back in the old days when I commented on QDM...I don't believe opinions matter, science is the only solution. Deer counts and harvest numbers don't exist at this time. I don't think any statewide policies should be initiated, but rather localized management plans. I don't want to be labeled as anti QDM. I am just against dealing with the health of the herd by opinions of unqualified individuals.
> 
> I see this thread got moved into QDM. I gotta watch my step now!!!*


*

I honestly can't think of any other management plan, other than QDM, that actually uses scientific data as the basis.

QDM has been proven time and again, using sound scientific data, that it works anywhere!  

Does this mean that I'm not going to see you at our QDM Branch Kickoff coming soon to Alpena, NEMichsportsman?*


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Bob S said:


> One might start to percieve you as an elitist with that type of attitude.


I was joking thus the smilie.

The circumstance in which I used the words was in reference to a derogatory reference to a specific group of "dregs" to which I apparently belong....

Besides you have never met my neighbors .


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Letmgro said:


> Does this mean that I'm not going to see you at our QDM Branch Kickoff coming soon to Alpena, NEMichsportsman?


It is up to the landowners to know their local situation. Where I part ways with a lot of our peers occurs when there are attempts to export philosophy to areas that they are unfamiliar with.

I wouldn't say I won't be behind the effort-keep me informed.


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

At least it's not a NO.

See, we're getting somewhere!


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