# Firearms Question



## Sixshooter (Mar 16, 2003)

Boehr,

My wife owns a 454 taurus, and the permit has her name and her name only on it. If I want to use this gun for deer hunting do I need to somehow get my name on the permit as well or can I just carry her permit with me while in the woods and during transport?

Second question.
We live in the "shotgun" zone. Just East of Dorr a little bit. Is it legal to use a pistol such as the 454 to hunt deer in the non rifle zone? or do I have to use my shotgun or blackpowder weapon?

And third question.
Can you small game hunt with a 22 or 17 calibur rifle in the southern zone?

-Jim


----------



## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Sixshooter said:


> My wife owns a 454 taurus, and the permit has her name and her name only on it. If I want to use this gun for deer hunting do I need to somehow get my name on the permit as well or can I just carry her permit with me while in the woods and during transport?


Short answer, you cannot borrow a handgun registered to someone else.

From MSP Web Site;
31. Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend to go target shooting?

MCL 28.429 Although the word "loan" was taken out of the definition of seller and purchaser, the safety inspection section of the statutes did not change. That law requires that anyone that owns or comes into possession of a pistol must present it to his or her local police agency for safety inspection. Failure to have the pistol safety inspected is a misdemeanor.

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10953--,00.html



Sixshooter said:


> Second question.
> We live in the "shotgun" zone. Just East of Dorr a little bit. Is it legal to use a pistol such as the 454 to hunt deer in the non rifle zone? or do I have to use my shotgun or blackpowder weapon?


As long as the pistol is .35 caliber or lager (it is) holds a maximum of only 9 rounds in the magazine and chamber combined and uses straight walled cartridges, yes, that type of handgun can be used in the shotgun zone.



Sixshooter said:


> And third question.
> Can you small game hunt with a 22 or 17 calibur rifle in the southern zone?


Yes, as long as it is not during the period of November 10 thru November 30.


----------



## Sixshooter (Mar 16, 2003)

Thanks Boehr,

One more question. Do you know if it is possible to get the safety registration in both my name and my wifes name? Or is it one registered user per weapon?


----------



## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I don't believe its possible to have it registered in two names but your local PD, sheriff office or MSP, whoever does the registering, can tell you for sure.


----------



## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

Sixshooter said:


> Or is it one registered user per weapon?


Nothing says you can use a handgun registered to another but....they had better be right there with you.

One grey area is for blue card holders....you might want to explore that option.


----------



## alex-v (Mar 24, 2005)

> One grey area is for blue card holders


Are you talking about CPL holders?


----------



## yippy (Dec 22, 2004)

Get the .454 in your name and leave it. Im guessing the gun is for protection. Will she ever leave the house with it? Could just transfer to your name for the season & change back to her name afterwords. 

Out of curiosity, has she shot it?


----------



## Sixshooter (Mar 16, 2003)

Yes she has shot it.
And we have talked about just transfering the registration.

I am mildly bummed however that there is not a way that a married couple can get a joint purchase permit type of thing. Because if we buy a weapon together whoever has the safety card has to be present. If she wants to take my 9mm to the range I have to go with her. If I want to hunt with the 454 she has to go with me and so on.

Oh well I guess.

And no that gun is not for protection. I don't think you could carry that conceiled in anything other than a snowmobile suite. it wouldn't fit anywhere else.

If we were to have guns for protection we would be more inclined to have the 9mm or the 45 at the ready.


----------



## yippy (Dec 22, 2004)

Yeah it is a bummer I agree. You should be able to share a gun with a spouse.

I ask if she used it becuase there is no way I could get my wife to even think about shooting my .480. I have shot both and the 454 kicks substantially more.


----------



## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

alex-v said:


> Are you talking about CPL holders?


yup....

But, I am not going to go into it....read the regs on time frames for registration...


----------



## Ninja (Feb 20, 2005)

Lot's of misinformation.

You CAN borrow/loan a handgun, use it, carry it, etc. under the right conditions.

From the MSP website:

Q: I have been told that I cannot loan my pistol to another person. I cannot even hand it to my wife when we are at the range together for her to try it. Is that true? 
A: There is no law against loaning a pistol. The law (MCL 28.421) was amended four years ago to take out the prohibition on loaning a pistol. 

While MCL 28.429 states that a person who "comes into possession" of a pistol must present it for safety inspection, no time period is stated in which the inspection must be performed. A person could present it within one day or one year. During that period the person can legally posses the pistol without the green card. In civil law, when no time is stated, a "reasonable time" is presumed. The rule is different for criminal law. In any event the time for presenting the gun for safety inspection is longer than a day at the range or a trip to a shooting meet. 

MCL 28.422 requires a person to return a portion of the pistol purchase license to the police within ten days after purchase. This is when the safety inspection is performed in a purchase situation. There is no corresponding provision for a person who "comes into possession" of a pistol by loan. 

Sometimes I tell people, who plan to have their spouse's pistol for an extended length of time, to present the pistol for safety inspection. There is nothing in the law that states that more than one person cannot have the pistol safety inspected. In every instance, the person reported back to me that the police refused to inspect the pistol unless there was a sale or transfer of ownership. I simply told them to make a record of their attempt. The record would be good to have if the issue ever arises.


----------



## Sixshooter (Mar 16, 2003)

Actually I wish I could find it but I sent my question to the MI SP and they responded with. A person CANNOT carry or transport a pistol on LOAN. The inspection card must be presented when asked for and it has to be in the name of the person who is transporting.

My direct question to the MSP was: Can I legally hunt with a handgun that is registered in my wifes name?

Answer: NO. There is currently legislation being brought around to handle these types of situation. And there is NO dual registration. Allegan county sherrifs office will NOT issue two cards for the same gun nor will they put two names on a card. 

Hopefully with the new legislation they can have a dual owner on the firearms. Because as It was explained to me by the state police, I cannot take a pistol that is registered in my wifes name to the range to shoot without her being present and vice versa.

You appear to be playing with words and taking a risk when you assume that comming into possesion is defined as being loaned a firearm. You should be careful that "comming into possesion" doesn't mean inherited.


----------



## Ninja (Feb 20, 2005)

Do you and/or your wife have a CPL?


Also you DO NOT have to present the Safety Inspection card.

Q:*When I registered my pistol I was given a green card. Do I have to have that card with me whenever I have the handgun (e.g. when I go to the range)?*
A:Michigan does not have a pistol registration law - it has a "safety inspection" law. Once the pistol has been presented for the inspection, you have complied with the law. The form you are given is a good record for you to keep. It shows that you have complied with the law if that is ever called into question and is a good record to have if the pistol is stolen or you want to sell it. There is no requirement that you have it on your person. Put it in your lock box, or wherever you store other important papers.


----------



## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Ninja said:


> ...no time period is stated in which the inspection must be performed. A person could present it within one day or one year.


 You could be correct, I have often stated that I have not kept up with some of the pistol laws when they changed the CCW requirements. The laws I deal with pertain to what type of gun can be used for hunting.

However, I do question the above opinion, one year is a reasonable time? I don't think that would hold up in any court, but that's just my opinion too.


----------



## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Ninja -

What part of the State Police Website are you getting the quotes that you posted above?

The only reference to "loaning" a handgun in the FAQ that I could find was this:

*31. Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend to go target shooting?*
MCL 28.429 Although the word "loan" was taken out of the definition of seller and purchaser, the safety inspection section of the statutes did not change. That law requires that anyone that owns or comes into possession of a pistol must present it to his or her local police agency for safety inspection. Failure to have the pistol safety inspected is a misdemeanor.

This appears to contradict what you quoted, so I'd like to know which is correct.

Also, printed on the back of the Green safety certificate is the following, which also seems to be at odds with what you quoted. This card was issued in 2003 so if the law was changed 4 years ago, you would think they would have changed the cards, as well.

_" State Law prohibits the furnishing, loaning, giving or selling of this pistol to another unless that person (including gun dealers) first obtains a license to purchase a pistol. Violation of this law is a criminal offense."_


----------



## Ninja (Feb 20, 2005)

Sorry folks....the info came from www.mcrgo.org

All the opinions in my posts are quoted from that site and are not my words or opinions.



Munster,
Here is the MCL reference regarding the green card statement.
I CANNOT find any statute to back up the statement on the green card.


MCL 28.422 requires a person to return a portion of the pistol purchase license to the police within ten days after purchase. This is when the safety inspection is performed in a purchase situation. There is no corresponding provision for a person who "comes into possession" of a pistol by loan.


----------



## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Ninja -

I don't know anything about the MCRGO and whether they are correctly iinterpreting Michigan law regarding loaning a handgun to someone else. 

I would be very careful acting on their advice before I got verification from a governing authority.

Having read the portion of the statute on the MSP website and in light of the statement on the back of the Green Card (which mentiones MCL 28.429 as the governing Statute for this statement) it sure looks like the State does not permit you to lend your handgun to anybody else.

Be careful out there.


----------



## Ninja (Feb 20, 2005)

Munsterlndr said:


> Ninja -
> 
> I don't know anything about the MCRGO and whether they are correctly iinterpreting Michigan law regarding loaning a handgun to someone else.
> 
> ...


MCL 28.429 was ammended in May of 2004....the word LOAN is no longer in the statute, and there is currently NO LAW on the books concerning this.


And to clarify.....in regards to CPL holders, a License to Purchase is not required to have a Safety Inspection card issued.
If the original poster's wife loans him her pistol, and he is a CPL holder, he can take that pistol to his local LEO and have it inspected.
She will then have her SI card, he will have his....although this part is kinda irrelevant because the SI card is NOT a registration, Mi does not have registration, and the SI card is NOT REQUIRED to be shown or carried.


----------



## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Again I would caution people to be careful before they decide to go around loaning handguns to others.

Ninja, you are quoting some attorney on a website, who is giving you a kind of twisted interprtation of the relevant statute. His argument is that because the statute does not enumerate the period of time that you have to obtain a safety inspection certificate, that you do not need to worry about it. In my judgement his argument that the period could be a " a day or a year" is a pretty weak argument to hang your hat on. Do you really want to bear the time, expense and hassle of trying to convince a jury that you really intended to get the handgun you borrowed from your friend inspected but that you just had not gotten around to it yet?

Legal advice is often worth what you pay for it.

As for me, I'm not going to be lending anyone any of my handguns for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Ninja (Feb 20, 2005)

Munster,
The time period is irrelevant......as a CPL holder, you can take the pistol and get the SI without an LTP the very next day, week, or month......it all conforms with the letter of the law.


----------



## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

But is it the intent of the law or reasonable when you said a year? I'll disagree with you and leave it at that.


----------



## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Ninja -

I think we are talking about two different scenarios here. The original poster asked whether he could borrow his wifes handgun. He did not say that he had a CPL. The answer to this question, based on what is on the MSP web site and on MCL 28.429, is that if he has a handgun in his possession that he must present it for a safety inspection. Without a license to purchase he is not going to get a safety inpection certificate and it will be illegal for him to possess that handgun.

If he has a CPL he may be able to get a safety inspection certificate without a License to Purchase. He still has to get the safety inspection, though, and the idea that he can do it at any time he wants is a risky proposition. Your on-line lawyer suggests that both the CPL holder and the non-CPL holder should make the attempt to obtain a safety certificate and if the police refuse to document the refusal. He mentions that this would make a good defense if you get charged with "failure to present a pistol for a safety inpection" .

Having a good defense is a lot different from something being legal. I still think that after reading the relevant statute and based on the MSP website answer to the question, that someone who possessed a "loaned" pistol, if he did not obtain a safety certificate, would be in violation of the law.


----------



## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

boehr said:


> But is it the intent of the law or reasonable when you said a year?


I doubt that it was intended that way but....

On another note. CPL holders must still complete the paperwork, sure--they can pull it off the internet easily but....there must be paperwork the last I knew. Blue card or not...I am not gonna be running around with a pistol that is registered to somebody else and not have paperwork showing that I am doing the transfer and complying with the law.


----------



## Ninja (Feb 20, 2005)

Munsterlndr said:


> Ninja -
> 
> 
> Having a good defense is a lot different from something being legal. I still think that after reading the relevant statute and based on the MSP website answer to the question, that someone who possessed a "loaned" pistol, if he did not obtain a safety certificate, would be in violation of the law.


And now we agree....this is my point exactly.
With a CPL, he CAN get a Safety Inspection, (Boehr, I agree with you too....a year is ridiculous) and in doing so, he is perfectly legal to use his wife's handgun, and she is perfectly legal to continue using it also.


----------



## Ninja (Feb 20, 2005)

lwingwatcher said:


> I doubt that it was intended that way but....
> 
> On another note. CPL holders must still complete the paperwork, sure--they can pull it off the internet easily but....there must be paperwork the last I knew. Blue card or not...I am not gonna be running around with a pistol that is registered to somebody else and not have paperwork showing that I am doing the transfer and complying with the law.


There is no "transfer" that needs to be done.
With a CPL, a License to Purchase IS NOT required.
Just present the handgun along with your CPL for a Safety Inspection and you're good to go.


----------



## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

Ninja said:


> There is no "transfer" that needs to be done.
> With a CPL, a License to Purchase IS NOT required.
> Just present the handgun along with your CPL for a Safety Inspection and you're good to go.


Since when is the three part form (either from the local PD or off the internet) no longer required? I thought the seller retained a copy, one went to the MSP and the local PD got the third part. 

I know that a permit to purchase is not required but, I do believe that a "transfer" occurs...that way it is on record who the owner is.

I don't disagree with you that CPL holders can play games but...if LE really wanted to make a point of things...it would seem improbable that one pistol could be legally registered to two people at the same time...


----------



## Ninja (Feb 20, 2005)

lwingwatcher said:


> Since when is the three part form (either from the local PD or off the internet) no longer required? I thought the seller retained a copy, one went to the MSP and the local PD got the third part.
> 
> I know that a permit to purchase is not required but, I do believe that a "transfer" occurs...that way it is on record who the owner is.
> 
> I don't disagree with you that CPL holders can play games but...if LE really wanted to make a point of things...it would seem improbable that one pistol could be legally registered to two people at the same time...


 
Another quote from MCRGO:

Q:*A former student of mine recently contacted the Attorney Generals office to ask whether he and his wife (each has a valid CCW permit) could legally carry each others firearms. Could you please shed some light on this? This question has been asked and addressed on the MCRGO Forums web site but not by an attorney. Perhaps this would be a good question for the MCRGO newsletter.*

A:This is a good question that comes up repeatedly. Like most good questions, it does not have an easy answer. The reason a person cannot normally possess a pistol unless it is registered to them is MCL 28.422 which states, Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not purchase, carry, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section. HOWEVER, MCL 28.422a exempts CPL holders from the requirements of MCL 28.422. The CPL is what lets you have a pistol that is licensed to someone else. Therefore, a person with a CPL may legally have a pistol for which that the person has not personally obtained the license to purchase. But theres a complication, safety inspection is Michigans version of registration. MCL 28.429 states, A person within the state who owns or comes into possession of a pistol shall ... present the pistol for safety inspection. While MCL 28.429 does not give a time within which the safety inspection must occur, the law would presume a reasonable time. I believe that you could take someone elses weapon to the range and then return it, but if you intend to use it for any length of time, you should present it for safety inspection. While unusual, I see nothing in the law that forbids more than one safety inspection, or successive safety inspections by different people. Probably, the police will refuse to do a safety inspection in a situation like this, because it is unusual. If they do, make a note of the date and officer. Then, you would have a good defense if you were charged with Failure to Present a Pistol for Safety Inspection.


----------



## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

There is a bunch of guessing here. I'm shuting this down now before someone gets into trouble following guesses and the best advise is to contact the local Police, MSP or Sheriff. MARGO does not make or enforce the law.

If you want to discuss it further, take it to sound off as this subject matter has nothing to do with hunting or fishing.


----------

