# why do so many used sea ray sundancers have new motors



## sadworld (Aug 4, 2003)

lovin the boat as im researching for a future purchase but it makes me wonder if i bought a sea ray with the original motor if i'm the guy who has to put a new motor in? tons listed as NEW MOTOR. any clues? looking at around 24ft model.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

A lot were sold therefore many still out there. Kind of like looking at trucks. Chevy 1500 rebuilt moter. I am not saying they were lazy. Many just dont know any better. I would worry more about hull shape than engine. Most of what I have seen with good hulls have been well taken care of.


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## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

well since sea ray,,,and other boat makers all use the same motors,,,it isn't a motor problem. most get replace because someone didn't winterise properly and cracked the block.
majority of motors are gm or ford motors


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## waterfoul (May 18, 2005)

john warren said:


> well since sea ray,,,and other boat makers all use the same motors,,,it isn't a motor problem. most get replace because someone didn't winterise properly and cracked the block.
> majority of motors are gm or ford motors


Right. Most engines that get replaced were done so for two reasons: Over heated due to bad water pump impeller (happens a lot more than you think) or froze and cracked due to improper winterization (happens a LOT). 

You will find most Sea Rays will have a Mercruiser engine, which makes it a GM block, which are easy to find and fairly cheap to replace. As was stated, I would worry more about the condition of the boat than the fact that it has a new motor. New motor would be a plus in my opinion.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

#1 reason is because Sea Rays have Mercs in them. Its a big misconception that "ALL" Marine GM motors are the same , but its farther from the truth. 1st off, there are different castings of 350's, etc.... Merc uses a different one than Crusader. Then the internals are competely up to the engine builder. Merc uses their own crank, psitons, valves, etc... as Crusader uses their own as well. Water and fuel routiing as well as bolt on compnents are are thought out by particular brand. Look at a Merc motor and it will seem ver "busy". Stuff running every wich way, like nothing was thought out.... just bolted on. Then look at a Crusader (or even a Volvo) and they are very "simple" and less cluttered. Things were thought out and it shows, especially when you have to work on them. Crusaders, on average, will last 3x as long as a merc.

When I was shopping for boats this spring, there were some Tiaras and pursuits that had merc motors. As soon as I see they have Mercs, I would pass it right on by.


This all kinda goes with what is said above about poor maintenance\ winterization. A person that "may" be newer to the game and not know the ropes is more likely to own a merc for their 1st motor. and not do the above properly. Most crusader owners know why the have them, and take care of them because experience has taught them that.


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## waterfoul (May 18, 2005)

Try getting a crusader in a "smaller" Sundancer from the dealer. Not too easy to do (especially in a single engine application) and a pretty good chunk of change for the "upgrade" if you can.

Mercruiser engines are great for the average boater. Those of us who use our boats a LOT will tell you there are better motors out there for sure. 

Moral of the story: Treat it right and do the mainenance to ANY motor and it will last as long as you want it to. That is the problem with buying a used boat... who knows what the previous owner(s) did or did not do. Caveat Emptor (as taught to me by Greg Brady on the Brady Bunch! LOL!!). Let the buyer beware. But be an educated buyer please!!


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

Crusaders we put in some larger sea rays in the 80's but that was before they became a Brunswick comany, which also owns merc.

However, I have seen some ppl maintain their mercs very well and still have failures that should have never happened. While at the same time seen friends with a embarrassing maintenance schedule on their crusaders that just keep going.

If something starts life as a bag of poop, it will be hard to turn into a diamond no matter what you do it. But its very hard to turn a diamond into poop.


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## Tiarafied (Nov 12, 2012)

Diamonds and poop?


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

Tiarafied said:


> Diamonds and poop?


Well, the guy above posted no matter what motor you have if its taken care of it will last, and thats not the case. Kinda like a Dodge truck. We have about 6 newer body styles here in our work parking lot, some only a few yrs old. ALL of them have started to rust at the rear wheel wheels. The owners of these trucks take very good care of them, but no matter how hard they polish and wax, its still gonna rust into a turd. They're "rust" fate was already carved in stone when it left the factory.


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## waterfoul (May 18, 2005)

I'll say one last thing as this seems to be turning into a Mercruiser bashing session:

My good friend has a 1993 Power Quest 290 with twin Merc 330's with over 1000 hours and no rebuilds. Still runs like new. Meticulous maintenance has helped I'm sure. Used EVERY weekend (he has even let me drive it many times). Even the Bravo drives are all original.

Kinda speaks for itself I think.

If you want a bullet proof motor buy one from Sterling, Tyler Crocket, BAM, or other custom builder. But you'll pay a pretty penny for it.

As for the rusting Dodge's... I've had 2 since the new body style came out in 1994. Both rusted in the places you said. I'll never own another one.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

I am not trying to turn this into a Merc bashing thread, I am just stating the facts. A marine motor lasting 1000 hrs is nothing, as I am taking the 5-7000 hr range, which is common for the Blue Crusader. If you get 1500 out of a merc thats doing well. When he gets THOUSANDS of hrs on that Merc, then I will be impressed. As for the other motors you stated, they just are not common here. Merc, Volvo, Crusader and Marine Power are what you see in gas power. You want diesels, the "common" ones CAT, Detroit, Volvo or Cummins. You need to be really cautious on which diesel you buy. Verry common practise is to take a well build, low HP motor and crank up the juice. Take the 3208. Great motor in the 275-350 range and will last a long time. Now take that same 3208 in the 425 hp outfit and your lucky to get 1500-2000 hrs. I have a CAT 3216 motor apart in pcs right now that let loose at only 140k miles. For a diesel, that is very poor.


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## waterfoul (May 18, 2005)

SalmonBum said:


> I am not trying to turn this into a Merc bashing thread, I am just stating the facts. A marine motor lasting 1000 hrs is nothing, as I am taking the 5-7000 hr range, which is common for the Blue Crusader. *If you get 1500 out of a merc thats doing well. When he gets THOUSANDS of hrs on that Merc, then I will be impressed.* As for the other motors you stated, they just are not common here. Merc, Volvo, Crusader and Marine Power are what you see in gas power. You want diesels, the "common" ones CAT, Detroit, Volvo or Cummins. You need to be really cautious on which diesel you buy. Verry common practise is to take a well build, low HP motor and crank up the juice. Take the 3208. Great motor in the 275-350 range and will last a long time. Now take that same 3208 in the 425 hp outfit and your lucky to get 1500-2000 hrs. I have a CAT 3216 motor apart in pcs right now that let loose at only 140k miles. For a diesel, that is very poor.


Still bashing the best selling marine motor in the world. You're making it sound as if there is absolutly no reason to ever buy a boat with a Merc in it. I guess litterally millions of other people are just all wrong then.

As for the Sea Ray the original poster is looking at/considering I wouldn't shy away from it because it has a new motor in it. 

Done.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

waterfoul said:


> Still bashing the best selling marine motor in the world.


 Bingo..... the reason they week so many is because they are owned by Brunswick, who also owns over half of all boat mfgs. So they put a merc in every thing. Personally, I would never own either every again because I know better. They all need new motors at some point, as the op has seen.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

waterfoul said:


> As for the Sea Ray the original poster is looking at/considering I wouldn't shy away from it because it has a new motor in it.
> 
> Done.


Consider the source of the new motor

Back in 98 I bought an 88 F26 PC with a big block. One of those Marina project boats. I guess it was a repo that froze up. All pumps, water heater, motor, canvas, ect were replaced. Seemed like a great deal with all the guts new.

It was purchased in Bay City and I never made it into the Bay before the engine let go. (less than 2 hours on it). Still under warranty they dropped another block in there. 

That one lasted a little over a year and she blew again while fishing the Blue Water. Come to find out these were Jasper rebuilds. 

A little over 5 grand later and less than 300 hours on the Jasper I had Art Summers build me a no-tin. One has to realize that these engines are under constant load, unlike a truck motor.

Do a little research before pulling the trigger, or you might end up like me with a wallet considerably lighter thinking "new" is great. Not everyone is qualified to build marine applications. This motor is still running today with countless hours on the clock.


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## Tiarafied (Nov 12, 2012)

waterfoul said:


> Still bashing the best selling marine motor in the world. You're making it sound as if there is absolutly no reason to ever buy a boat with a Merc in it. I guess litterally millions of other people are just all wrong then.


No, millions of other people are rebuilding their Mercruisers. My 220 Crusaders are just broken in at 3550 hrs. Change the oil every 80 and they go forever. Can't say that about Mercruisers. I know big block Crusaders with 7k on them. It may sound like bashing, because its the best selling and not the best.


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## 1mainiac (Nov 23, 2008)

If you want the most common least expensive I/O Mercruiser is the way to go. If you want a boat that will run for decades not so much. Many of them are just GM truck engines with marine parts bolted on them. On several models they swap the carb fuel pump and distributor and add marine manifolds and pulleys and a flywheel and your done. Much like Jasper rebuilds they count on volume to make up for the failures. I have seen them with steel soft plugs and no block drains. Also keep in mind GM had camshaft issues on it's small blocks for many years which is why you see so many that seem to run OK but have little power. Putting in a quality cam on a 350 block could gain you 50hp over what it currently has. You would be blown away at the number of rebuilt engines I have torn down over the years to find they were never put together right to begin with. From not indexing the cam bearings, the most common failure. To just bolting stuff together with no thought on how it will work as a unit.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

Found out that sea ray and mercruiser are owned by the same people. 


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

deadduck365 said:


> Found out that sea ray and mercruiser are owned by the same people.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Yes, Brunswick. 


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Mercruiser 350's were coming out of CPC Flint engine plant during the early 90's maybe late 80's. Same engine was going in the vettes.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

Ranger Ray said:


> Mercruiser 350's were coming out of CPC Flint engine plant during the early 90's maybe late 80's. Same engine was going in the vettes.




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Again, only the blocks. Internals were whatever mere used, not what came in Corvettes, or trucks for that matter. The inside is what makes a merc a "merc".


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

SalmonBum said:


> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
> 
> Again, only the blocks. Internals were whatever mere used, not what came in Corvettes, or trucks for that matter. The inside is what makes a merc a "merc".


No, fully built and assembled at CPC. I used to call on CPC Flint, we supplied the heads. We would go in and watch them being run on the dyno. Unless GM was sending out the blocks to Mercruiser, and Mercruiser was building to the heads, shipping them back, then GM installed the heads. Doesn't make sense though.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

Everything that I know of, merc used their own internals. Maybe they assembled some motors to test blocks, I dunno. I think a lot of the marine blocks are now coming from saginaw

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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

An old article that sheds a little light.

http://www.rbbi.com/company/bc/mm/gmstrike.htm#facing



> General Motors supplies long blocks and some components for MerCruiser's marine engines. Long blocks are the basic engine assembly, including engine block, crankshaft and pistons, and come from three GM plants, two of which have been idled by a strike by the United Auto Workers.


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## navyman (Dec 16, 2010)

same engines, maybe closer specs. stainless headgaskets and softplugs... maybe, I know of many jaspers out there with lots of hours on them.. and I don't think it is uncommon to get 4000 hrs. on a merc.especially if it is trolling at 2.5 mph. and 800 rpm for 8 hrs a day, these hour meters don't know the difference between 800 rpm and 3600 rpm so you really need to compare apples to apples, when I look at an hour meter I know that it really means very little unless I know how the boat was used, too many variables to be accurate. SO, I think mercruiser is a good unit, but always room for improvement.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

That article tells me nothing but a story about a strike back in the 90s. The guy mentioned what GM might supply to merc, but my guess is the author doesn't know the difference between an alternator and a cam shaft. Even if GM "built" the block up, it doesn't mean they used internal GM parts. I'm sure merc supplied them with what they want...... again, not the same as the crank that went into a truck 350. Just the reason a jasper will last a bit longer, they don't use merc or GM stuff, but whatever they make in house or what is purchased from any number of suppliers...... besides GM. And as I stated before, its not just the internal that make merc a lower quality motor. Compare a merc exhaust riser to a crusader. The crusader will be twice as thick. 

We are somewhat getting off the OP question. He wants to know why used sea rays have a a lot of rebuilt motors. The simple answer is because they use mercs. You don't see a lot of older tiaras with rebuilt motors, because they spend the extra cash and use crusader. It's very simple. You get what you pay for.

Im Sure there are a few mercs out there that will go the 5000+hrs, but historically, as the OP has seen, 1000 to 1500 is the normal for a merc. It is what it is. As my experience has shown, merc will be the 1st to need an overhaul, then OMC, then Volvo and then crusader. But with anything, merc is the cheapest and crusader costs the most.

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## Stick Slingur (Oct 17, 2011)

Does it make any difference whether you gas up at a car station with ethanol added to the gas or buy marine premium on the engines longevity?


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

I agree with SB (again...lol) A Vette motor wouldn't last a 1000 hours under constant load. We're talking about a light car with lots of coasting compared to a marine motor working every hour. 

BTW, I stayed at Holiday Inn saved a bundle, chowed down an included breakfast and ended up replacing my Jasper (twice) before getting a real marine (no tin) motor replaced to make me feel comfortable. That block was an animal! Took us into the UP several times from Harbor Beach. 

I'd still be reluctant with any receipts from Jasper!!

No more Inboards for me, unless they're Crusaders with a decent service record, although the twin 4.3's weren't too bad. That 27 Sea Ray with a 10' beam was a beast running them, but with 2 of them, they weren't working all that hard!


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

Stick Slingur said:


> Does it make any difference whether you gas up at a car station with ethanol added to the gas or buy marine premium on the engines longevity?


Since I'm docked at a marina that only has mid grade non ethanol fuel, I'm lucky. Older boats always have some type of sediment at the bottom of fuel tanks. Ethanol is very good at mixing that stuff up and running it thru the fuel system, causing all kinds if problems. It also will eat the old fuel lines, and then that old rubber ends up in motor too. Besides that, what long term damage running E10 will do I cannot answer. I'm sure pre detonation occurs, as well a lean air fuel mixture.


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## Tiarafied (Nov 12, 2012)

Stick Slingur said:


> Does it make any difference whether you gas up at a car station with ethanol added to the gas or buy marine premium on the engines longevity?


So far with my boat, absolutely nothing. The ONLY time I pump marina gas is when I'm transient. Otherwise, it's regular 87 octane from the gas station. If I were to guess, maybe 800 out of my 3500hrs came from marine premium. Aside from general maintenance and carb rebuild (which I just did after about 2k) it has not affected gas lines or fuel tank.


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## Getaway (Jan 17, 2001)

To answer the original question, Why do so many used SeaRay Dancers have new motors? Well, Sea Ray Sundancers were (and still are) really an economy boat, sold at an economy price. Merc drives are the norm. Inexpensive and good for at least 3000hrs. You won't find a top of the line Crusader engine in an 80's vintage Sea Ray. 

Mercs are a decent value for a family that puts 50hrs per year on a boat and sleeps on it at the dock. About 20 yrs of service and now these old girls are needing new engines (transoms and stringers too by the way...but that is for another thread). 

The 454 in my boat ('88 268DA Dancer) had 3100 hrs on it and I put it through a full rebuild. It really didn't need it, but I'm glad she's freshened up. The 4.3 Merc in my old Islander was a beast. I ran the snot out of that motor and she never gave me bit of trouble. I easily put 3500 hrs on that motor and to this day, it's still running strong and never burned a drop of oil.

A charter boat/fishing rig that is going to see 500-1000hrs of service per year, better be running Crusaders. A guy like most of us that run our rigs around 200 hrs per year will get a lot of years out of a decent Mercruiser. 

It's pure and simple. The reason a lot of these older SeaRays have new motors is those Merc drives are now 20+ years old and are through their life cycle and in need of rebuilding or replacement.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Used to grind cams.

We ground a GM cam, it went into a GM engine.

Then we would grind a merc cam.

Merc would take the prerfectly good GM cam we sold GM and do God knows what with it and replace it was our merc cam.

One engine, two cam sales for us.....


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## Abel (Feb 14, 2003)

I didn't read everything but skimmed most of this thread. Merc, Crusader, Volvo all use the same Chevy blocks. The major issues started around 98 when they all went to EFI. The cam profiles changed due to EPA restrictions and the valve overlap causes water ingestion through the exhaust. At idle this creates water buildup in the exhaust manifolds. In saltwater it was a major issues as the salt would buildup on the valve stems and lockup the valves. Crusader was able to modify their cooling system to correct this issue. The boats that had the biggest issues that I've read about were Sea Ray and Carolina Classic. Carolina Classic will no longer build a saltwater boat with a Volvo motor for this reason. There was a shutdown procedure that was put out for affected motors. Before shutting down the boat for longer periods (overnight, sitting on anchor, etc...) run the idle up to 2000rpms for 2-3 minutes then shutdown. The higher idle will blow the water out. I knows guys that have the Mercs in the Carolina that now have over 3000hrs with running this procedure. If it is a carbed motor it is most likely pre 97, those motors are fine as long as you take care of them, did not have the ingestion issue. My old man Pen Yann, 350 Merc powered had over 4500 hard hours running charters before it finally snapped the crank. The new block, which we put in the in the has over 3000 on it now, but this is a 89 boat and is carbed. Google water ingestion, lots of info on it, Hulltruth.com has lots of posts on it as well, also the Carolina Classic Owners forums. Now whther it has beem fixed with the new generations of Merc and Volvo's I haven't heard. Merc does have a kit to add to the exhaust that is supposed to correct this issue, but I haven't heard of it's success or failure.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

Most the sea rays I have seen with rebuilt mercs are pre 1998 and were carbed

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