# 2016 marks 100 years of dog field trials in Gladwin



## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Hunters Edge said:


> Just curious dauber do you run your dogs on the area? If you do, why would you care if when your not their some hunter or trapper is using the land. And actually practicing Scientific fish and wildlife conservation act, which by the way is the law and should be happening and utilized. Why do anyone think that using the land should stop someone else to use it especially when the other person helped pay for it and its ongoing expenses? I think by actually having predator trapping and hunting, bird numbers would actually increase.
> 
> With have a heart like traps and dog proof traps. I would think less chance of dog/****/skunk/porcupine instances. This also will help in dogs acquiring rabies or distemper or later infections from wounds. This should help for campers with pets as well getting lepto from the water if majority of predators are in check. So what would be the bad side to allow hunters and trappers to keep populations and/or manage the wildlife through hunting and trapping?


No I do not run my dogs there. I will never run dogs there. I did the soil map review
about 2010 though and have walked much of it. I am a person who can let others have a use of .1% of state land and not think they are hurting me. 

I take it you haven't yet read Russ Mason's commentary in Michigan Outdoor News he wrote for you?

And I stand corrected on the "gift". It was something I was told when working down there. 

It can have other uses such as deer hunting after Nov 15. I would thing the deer hunters would love that! Nobody bow hunting right before gun season messing them up. Part of scientific management is having some long term constants such as this piece where the use has been the same. 

It is a very high quality bird dog trial area, one of the best in the country! In my opinion it would lessen the quality if opened up to everything. We have some high quality fisheries that are exclusive to methods that could diminish the quality, we have high quality deer yard complexes that are managed solely for deer yards, we have sensitive areas with rare species that are restricted to uses that are compatible. If the P-R review found it to be out of compliance changes would have to be made such as exchanging equal value land of game fund to other, this is not easy though with a couple layers of federal gov involved. I also don't believe this is the fight to have when there are many who want to sell...no really they want to give it away for campaign donations, like the 10,000 acres to Graymont, and half the country wants to take my guns.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

dauber said:


> No I do not run my dogs there. I will never run dogs there. I did the soil map review about 2010 though and have walked much of it. I am a person who can let others have a use of .1% of state land and not think they are hurting me.
> 
> I take it you haven't yet read Russ Mason's commentary in Michigan Outdoor News he wrote for you?


No have not read the article. But what you suggest above is not what the issue is. It is not letting others use it, rather allow those paying the bills access as well. It is also allow those who protect are freedoms we take for granted access as well, veterans and disabled veterans. It is also about doing what is right for the wildlife and keep populations in check not only for future generations but to minimize health hazards and diseases. It is also about keeping and following laws we have and laws that were meant to keep hunting and fishing monies from being misappropriated. It also is to insure other areas hunters and trappers use today are not labeled field trial area and hunting/trapping is limited or stopped tomorrow. It is also about buying a hunting license and not only have the recreation aspect but able to feed yourself or your family, building memories on grounds purchased with hunting monies.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Hunters Edge said:


> Hunters and trappers want to use the land as you have used it but to feed their family, build memories with children and/or other family members and they are true conservationist and want to manage the wildlife for future generations. That's all not to stop field trials but to enjoy the property, especially by law they should be able to. Why do you think for one minute why they should not use the property, they purchased it? Do you use the house your renting, buying or own?


It's been managed this way for 100 years!!! If it didn't work it would be a failure and not a field trial grounds. There have been a few tweaks along the way but it is in agreement of the scientists who manage it and the users that it is the finest in the country. If as you say it us terribly managed we would have known 50-60 years ago. The fact is you are wrong. 

How have these poor starving people survived for 100 years not being able to feed their families?? This is maybe .1% of the state land. There is loads if state and federal land within a half hour of there. 

And oh ya, Russ Mason must read this since his commentary was for you and Casperson.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

So training and helping produce better bird dogs is incompatible with hunting?? I disagree. 

If there is a veteran you know that wants to bird hunt have him contact me. I will personally take him out and show him some of the finest grouse and woodcock hunting in the country.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Please reread my posts. The liberty hunt is designed/originated to allow disabled veterans an opportunity to hunt when others are available and able to assist. Yet are unable to on State land known as Gladwin Field Trial Area. Also at the same time private clubs/corporations are running events making money on grounds that should allow hunting by law.

100 years ago it was done most likely without knowledge to hunters. To be frank ran many dogs on field trial grounds in this state and other states as well all open to hunting. Just a few years ago found out Gladwin was not open to hunters/trappers. Dug into why, and appears was accomplished with a special interest group, rather than the people. Because of general fund taking money earmarked for hunting and fishing and funds generated by license fees laws were enacted to correct and prohibit this from happening case in point Environmental Protection Act 451 section 40501.

If something is wrong you fix it. Field trials are not compatible to hunting but a game. Dogs have been trained for hunting for centuries well before the game of field trials. Not against trials but against property paid for by hunters monies not able to exercise their legal right when purchasing a hunting/trapping license because of any special interest group. Who needs anti-hunters with our DNR ready and willing to add other areas to limit or stop hunting with verbage in Environmental Protection Act 451 section 42104

Also lets mention part of the field dog section 42101. The allowed field trial area/dog training area is only 40 to maximum 240 acres on private land. So state land should not make a difference unless the population of the county exceeds 100,000 to increase field trial area. In 2010 the population census was 25692. Another piece of the puzzle, how can state land in a county with a population well under 100,000 monopolize 4940 acres and designate it as field trial grounds legally.

And state land should be for all to use especially those paying the bills. Again not trying to stop trials except those two weekends set aside for youths and disabled veterans. Hunting and trapping can be done during when an event is not being held. If properly managed for all to use and manage wildlife under the law (Scientific fish and wildlife conservation act) it just may become a jewel. Now it is a disgrace to what special interest groups can accomplish against the people of the state.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Another thing I need to add. The DNR in my eyes is to manage the wildlife, fish, land, water and air for the people of this state. If you look and/or read everything articles etc., published by the dnr or staff they repeatedly state the Gladwin Field Trial are is managed for field trials. You may ask whats wrong with that? Who funds the dnr? What is the reason why it was originally started even though it has changed names and such since? What do you think hunters, fisherman, trappers expect their money to go toward and for? How is funds generated from license fees to manage wildlife, fish, land water and air legally able to manage for field trials?


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Note you can deer hunt on the property after November 14th. You can also trap beaver. Below I added inserts from a past 2014 hunting digest besides what I posted above you can do the attachments below not counting the above is what you can not do. Yet the state sells licenses to do so but can not be done on the Gladwin Field Trial area.

I also want to remind everyone the reason for the license increase was to promote small game hunting (supposedly). Be advised you can not hunt small game on the Gladwin Field Trial area, kind of a oxymoron or hypocritical. You would think if it is that important to raise fees to accommodate it, all state land should be made available.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh I've read your posts. Bottom line is your use is more important than bird doggers. You should be able to do what you want despite the fact this area has been designated for a century as a field trial grounds. You want to shut them down despite the fact that the vet hunt can take place on all of the 3.8 million acres but that one piece, plus all the private land open to hunting. No compromise so both can do it at the same time. No you want to beat the bird doggers into submission cause you are more important. Ya I get it, the exact attitude that is diminishing the quality of state land everywhere. I'm glad I'm old and won't be hunting that much longer with attitudes of they got it better than me so I gotta shut them down except when I want them to do their activity. 

How do you square berry pickers, mushroom pickers, horse riders, they don't pay anything nor even use permits like the trailers do? These activities certainly don't recruit future hunters like trialing does. These activities certainly don't help promote hunting like trialing does. 

Oh yes I get it your use is more important. And many wonder why hunters eat each other. Go read Mason's article.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

dauber said:


> Oh I've read your posts. Bottom line is your use is more important than bird doggers. You should be able to do what you want despite the fact this area has been designated for a century as a field trial grounds. You want to shut them down despite the fact that the vet hunt can take place on all of the 3.8 million acres but that one piece, plus all the private land open to hunting. No compromise so both can do it at the same time. No you want to beat the bird doggers into submission cause you are more important. Ya I get it, the exact attitude that is diminishing the quality of state land everywhere. I'm glad I'm old and won't be hunting that much longer with attitudes of they got it better than me so I gotta shut them down except when I want them to do their activity.
> 
> How do you square berry pickers, mushroom pickers, horse riders, they don't pay anything nor even use permits like the trailers do? These activities certainly don't recruit future hunters like trialing does. These activities certainly don't help promote hunting like trialing does.
> 
> Oh yes I get it your use is more important. And many wonder why hunters eat each other. Go read Mason's article.


First off who is calling the kettle black? You start a rumor of how the land was acquired which was not. You keep saying beat bird doggers down and no compromise while the bird doggers are using land bought by hunters monies and not allowing hunters and trappers on it. You want the trailers to have exclusive rights. I disagree, they should share it. It is for everybody including hunters but not limited to as well Your statement on berry pickers, mushroom pickers, horse riders etc. is fine they do not try to hog it exclusively for them. Get it but trailers want it exclusively for them this is wrong and what I keep mentioning it appears to be exactly why laws were passed to keep land for one special group instead of all the people in Michigan. No one but you and gamekeeper stated anything about stopping trials in Gladwin Field Trial area. The issue is sharing the land for all to use, not just one group. Now if this was private property or if field trailers had purchased the land it may be a different subject or issue. Of if it was not state land that should fall under the Scientific fish and wildlife act and wildlife managed properly then again this thread post most likely would not exist. If language in the Environmental Protection Act 451 of 1994 and section 40501 to limit or stop hunting and trapping on Gladwin, Brighton, Highland, Ionia, Waterloo, Escanaba State forest area and White Cloud ares these posts would not be necessary.

It is also wrong to put those in and around the area in harms way by not keeping animals populations healthy. This not only bad for the wildlife but for pets and humans in and around the area. Again this is why hunting and trapping needs to be done on that property along with other state land.

PS dauber I hope you have many more years to hunt and enjoy Michigan's diverse natural resources.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Gladwin approximately 4940 acres,

Brighton approximately 4947 acres,
http://www.michigandnr.com/parksandtrails/Details.aspx?type=SPRK&id=438

Highland approximately 5900 acres
http://www.michigan.org/property/highland-recreation-area/
Ionia approximately 4500 acres
http://www.michigandnr.com/parksandtrails/Details.aspx?type=SPRK&id=461
Waterloo approximately 20,500 acres
http://www.michigandnr.com/parksandtrails/details.aspx?id=506&type=SPRK
Escanaba state forest area, approximately 142,000 acres
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-30301_30505-66189--,00.html

Could not find acreage amount for White Cloud area mentioned in Environmental Protection Act 451 324.42104. So not counting White Cloud area your looking at approximately 177,840 acres that hunting, trapping could be limited or stopped to the verbage in 324.42104 even if the land was purchased with hunters monies. Even with the passing of Environmental Protection Act 451 which was to protect those funds with section 324.40501

I urge every hunter or trapper to discuss this info with other family members and friends. This is a very severe threat to and for future hunting and trapping in Michigan. We can continue to sit and do nothing or get involved and start contacting your legislator to repeal act 451 section 324.42104


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Who funds the DNR? Hunters and all other tax payers. There are general revenue monies in the DNR budget. Are field trailers hunters? Every single trailer I know in every venue I have competed or attended is a hunter, a fisher and a field trailer, every single person I have met. And yes, I have asked. We are also very involved in various organizations that promote conservation, RGS, DU, PF, NRA, to a person. We hunt, we fish, we train dogs, we spend money and we donate untold hours to these various organizations.

Land use and game management restrictions aren’t a special province for Gladwin Field Trial Area, but a management process that is used throughout the 50 states and the Federal wildlife and Land use departments. Flies only stretches on blue ribbon trout streams, slot limits for fishing, catch and release only fishing, Quality Deer Management (antler restrictions), bucks only, does only, areas closed to ORV use, mountain bike use, equestrian. Boating and motor restrictions on many public access lakes, either a complete prohibition of motors or slot times when boats can be run under full power. Two tracks closed to wheeled vehicles, do I need to go on? Restrictions of various sorts are implemented throughout Land and Game management at every level and have been used as long man has been actively involved in game management. The Gladwin Field Trial Area, formally the Gladwin Refuge, has special use and does restrict some hunting, not all hunting. It’s a mixed use area and it gets heavily used throughout the year by various user groups. Three State Forest campgrounds, 3 lakes, a number of small trout streams, mushrooms, berries and general pleasure.

You are correct, small game hunting is allowed at the field trial areas of Highland and Ionia. I challenge you to find a huntable population of small game at either venue. It doesn’t exist, especially a huntable bird population. An executive order was implemented to stop small game hunting during a sanctioned field trial. This happened after the 2nd encounter with a small group of shotgun toting, hunter orange clad minions who walked into the bird field at Highland during a sanctioned trial and started shooting released quail purchased by the club and released for the stakes being run. Where these folks within the law? Yes they were at that time. They broke the law when confronted by the trailers and one of gun wielders lowered said shotgun on a trailer. The State Police arrived and the rest is history. That is what precipitated the executive order and this goes to my point, the huntable “population” of game were pen raised released quail. What point these dolts were trying to make is beyond comprehension.

This Gladwin Field Trial area is gem in the field trial community, it is the absolute best there is in the entire world of grouse trials. If you are a field trailer that has been competing for any time and traveled to other venues what we have here in Michigan is something that should be cherished, that we should wrap our arms around, we should hold it close. Once lost it will never be replaced.

References were made to private clubs and individuals making money off the backs of hunters. Again, EVERY SINGLE one of us are hunters and fishers and outdoorsman. The clubs that run are non-profits. The officers of each club donate time and money, not a single club official is paid a salary, not a single club official is reimbursed ANY expense to run a trial, to work the grounds during the various work days we schedule, to attend meetings, no compensation at all is provided to the club officials or the club members. All clubs, and this is true throughout the field trial world, reimburse judges for travel expenses. Many judges turn down this reimbursement, especially for weekend trials.

The Alibi Hall, the old white barn on the grounds, used as Field Trial headquarters. I don’t know (and I have asked the old-timers) how the barn was acquired. No one seems to know. Was it there in some of the tax reverted land? Maybe. The updates that have been made, the upkeep, the maintenance, the corrals for the horses, the new wiring, the porch roof, the metal roof, the concrete pad under the porch, regular painting………..all paid for BY THE FIELD TRIALERS thru a dog tax paid to the Grounds committee for each and every single dog that is entered. The labor to accomplish this maintenance, all donated and completed by the FIELD TRIAL COMMUNITY. The 2 miles of fence along M18, FIELD TRIALERS DOG TAXES. We have purchased a DR Mower, chain saws, HD weed whips and an enclosed trailer to store and haul, all PAID BY THE FIELD TRIALERS. These items are used to maintain the courses, cut in new courses as the forest matures and the forest is cut. If you are not part of the Gladwin Field Trial community then you really have no idea how much time, effort and personal expense each and every one of us donate to this area. Last fall we had a man, Jim Crouse, judge the National Amateur Grouse Championship. Jim is a past president of the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America and has been a judge 3 years running in the National Bird Dog Championship at the Ames Plantation (the most prestigious of all bird dog trials in the known universe) During a lull in a brace Jim looked down at me from his horse and stated, “If my boys had to work this hard at bird dogging they would all quit.” This followed our discussion on our grounds maintenance and the time and effort it takes to train a grouse dog to trial expectations. That was huge compliment to the Gladwin community and Coverdog guys in general.

The State of Michigan has over 4.5 million acres of public land, 100’s of thousands of acres of Commercial Forest Land open to hunting and fishing, Gladwin is 4900 aces. Is this special use, especially when compared to all the other special use management policies across all outdoor venues, really a burden to anyone? It doesn’t set precedent, it follows normal management precedent.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Amen Bobby!! Very well said.


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

+1 Bobby for president !!!


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

+2


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Already am, 2 times.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

dauber said:


> How do you square berry pickers, mushroom pickers, horse riders, they don't pay anything nor even use permits like the trailers do? These activities certainly don't recruit future hunters like trialing does. These activities certainly don't help promote hunting like trialing does.


This statement added to the other statements of you not wanting or permitting hunting/trapping on Gladwin Field Trial area basically says trialing recruits better hunters/trappers than actual hunting and trapping.



Bobby said:


> Land use and game management restrictions aren’t a special province for Gladwin Field Trial Area, but a management process that is used throughout the 50 states and the Federal wildlife and Land use departments.


No any land used for field trials that were purchased with federal funds from the Pittman Robertson Act have or in the process of legally eliminating field trials from that land.



Bobby said:


> Who funds the DNR? Hunters and all other tax payers. There are general revenue monies in the DNR budget.


Do not change subject Gladwin Field Trial Grounds was purchased with game and fish funds and deer license monies. Thus making it subject to Environmental Protection Act 451 section 324-40501
the only reason why hunting and trapping is limited or stopped on that property is because of Act 451 section 324-42104
The language in 324-42104 has the capability of limiting or stopping hunting and trapping on over 170,000 acres in Michigan



Bobby said:


> References were made to private clubs and individuals making money off the backs of hunters. Again, EVERY SINGLE one of us are hunters and fishers and outdoorsman. The clubs that run are non-profits. The officers of each club donate time and money, not a single club official is paid a salary, not a single club official is reimbursed ANY expense to run a trial, to work the grounds during the various work days we schedule, to attend meetings, no compensation at all is provided to the club officials or the club members. All clubs, and this is true throughout the field trial world, reimburse judges for travel expenses. Many judges turn down this reimbursement, especially for weekend trials


The clubs only way to make money is to run an event. It makes money behind a non profit corp. which allows I believe a max of 10,000 a year. It was not a reference but a statement. Veterans who have fought and given of themselves for all of us to enjoy freedoms we take for granted. Now a disabled veteran can not even hunt on land purchased with hunters money in the Gladwin Field Trial Area on the liberty hunt. While a non profit corp. is exactly that making money by holding an event.



Bobby said:


> Is this special use, especially when compared to all the other special use management policies across all outdoor venues, really a burden to anyone? It doesn’t set precedent, it follows normal management precedent.


The land was acquired with hunters monies. It should have reverted to allow hunting and trapping in 1994 with the passing of the Environmental Protection Act 451 section 324-40501 it did not for the only reason of section 324-42104 and this need to be repealed not only because of Gladwin but the other areas stated that could become the same. The limited or stop of hunting and trapping on over 170.000 is not just 4940 acres.



Bobby said:


> This Gladwin Field Trial area is gem in the field trial community, it is the absolute best there is in the entire world of grouse trials. If you are a field trailer that has been competing for any time and traveled to other venues what we have here in Michigan is something that should be cherished, that we should wrap our arms around, we should hold it close. Once lost it will never be replaced.


Yeah I guess if a group did not have to pay for land and not only have exclusive use of it along being able to make money, they would consider it a gem.

Also I notice you did not mention all the horses, dogs, handlers, scouts, gallery walking around /running during nesting time. I also notice that majority of dog owners pays trainers and others to run their dogs in trials. Not only trials being a game, it is big business with lobbyist etc. A handler may have 10 or more dogs getting paid to run dogs and travel to one field trial to the next. Most people do not have the time off work to travel several states to be able to run the event thus one of the reason for dog handlers. Not saying a person can not run just majority of dogs running are running for profit as well. So not only you have the club making money you have trainer/handlers running others dogs making money as well. Also whether you run your own dog or pay someone if the dog gets enough points for champion the dog/bitch is worth more. Pups are worth more, stud fees are worth more etc.... Now I do not know if they are ran in Gladwin but certain trials have purses or money for 1st, 2nd and 3rd placement. So yes they are making money off the backs of hunters. The saddest is that someone who fought to protect us and is now disabled can not even hunt on those same grounds during the liberty hunt, but should be able to. So it is not a gem but wrong and a disgrace.

I notice you did not even touch on the over population of predators because of not managing them by hunting/trapping of predators. This is an increase not only in populations but increasing the possibility of health hazards and the spread of diseases in and around the area.


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

Dude you sound like a very bitter man. Get out and enjoy the many other acres this state has to offer and quit whining.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

fordman1 said:


> Dude you sound like a very bitter man. Get out and enjoy the many other acres this state has to offer and quit whining.



Ya ya Edgeies use is more important. Us trailers are a bunch of richies. 

I'll point out a couple total BS's. 
The 170,000 acres is complete BS. In these areas there are small areas for dog folks to potentially use. For example the Escanaba forest has 160 acres, yes just 160 acres to have an event on. So the rest of the 142,000 is completely unaffected. Even the 160 is open even if you get a use permit. I know because one of the clubs I belong to looked into having a trial. But when they told us even with a use permit we couldn't keep other hunters off during the event we ended up going to Wisconsin. Most of the other acreages are BS too. You didn't look into the administrative rules where they are defined. In fact many of the areas you listed you cannot hold trials anymore. 

How can we allow trappers to "make a profit" off state land?? I mean we (I am a trapper) directly make money off it! Believe me none of the dog clubs I belong to "make money". Any extra goes right back to replace worn out equipment. (Which much is taxed and put into PR which you say we cannot use!!). 

I never ever said dog games made "better" hunters. Again you twisting everything to try to stop trialing. It comes down to you having a bur in your butt about trialing and your going to get us. It is not arguable that trials do add to hunter ranks and also make fence sitters more acceptable to hunting. 

Go read Russ Mason's article I read of all these numbers . Numbers. It is attitudes like yours that is (note I didn't say going to) the downfall and will end hunting. Go outside and get your nose out of the law reviews, smell some real smells rather than bitterness.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Dauber, which issue is the Russ Mason article published?
Thanks


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

It is the"commentary" in Michigan Outdoor News. We got it in mail late last week. It's all about guys with attitudes like Mr Edge. Plus how we as sportsmen are taking world class state land uses and making them mediocre at best.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Hunters Edge said:


> The pictures are nice but not near the memories as actually hunting with your dog and/or family members. Which I may add is denied or prohibited in GFTA and over 177000 acres could become the same if the language is not changed or repealed in Environmental Protection Act 451 section 324-42104
> 
> What I have not figured out is how do all you anti-hunters like posting pictures of pointing dogs doing what they were bred to do, HUNT. Yet deny those same breeds and others and their owners who pay hard earned money to the state to actually hunt and provide food for the table access on PUBLIC land. More importantly land purchased with hunters monies.



Some springtime hunting!


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Daddy-daughter
RU CH Out of the Shadows, RU CH Nobody's Shadow


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## Mr. Uplander (Jul 6, 2015)

dauber said:


> Some springtime hunting!
> View attachment 220748


Someone is playing picaboo


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Bobby said:


> View attachment 220757
> 
> 
> Daddy-daughter
> RU CH Out of the Shadows, RU CH Nobody's Shadow


Cool picture!!


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Here is a hunt that can be attributed to the breeding from field trials. Cockers wouldn't be anything like this if not for field trials. Many hunters benefit.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

dauber said:


> Here is a hunt that can be attributed to the breeding from field trials. Cockers wouldn't be anything like this if not for field trials. Many hunters benefit.


What, how can hunters benefit, with special interest groups limiting and even stopping hunting, trapping and dog training on PUBLIC land?


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## huntmore (Feb 27, 2013)




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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

mark.n.chip said:


> With all the other public land Michigan has to offer, you have to complain about this special set up area. Thats too bad. There is other public land open to hunting within 1/2 hour from Gladwin. Sorry I just can't see why you must have this.


I can ask you a similar question. How can a special interest group stop and limit hunting and dog training on public land? Especially with laws to stop that from happening on land purchased with hunters monies on the books. As well as a new law in 2014 Scientific fish and wildlife conservation act. Again we are not talking about 5000 acres of private property but state land or more importantly public land that the public is denied access to follow laws written for majority not a few, or for a special interest group.

The state sells hunting and trapping license and you need a hunting license to legally train a dog in Michigan even in off season. Yet state land is denied those who purchase a state hunting license to hunt, train their dog, or a furharvester's license to trap or predator hunt. To allow a special interest group to monopolize state land. To make it worse field trials do not benefit wildlife in actuality by not managing wildlife it actually jeopardizes wildlife if not harms it and the ecosystem. 

Lets also add in we are not talking about just GFTA but the language that allows a loop hole in the law Environmental Protection Act 451 section 324-40501 that was to protect funds for hunting and fishing licenses to be used only for outdoor activities. So not used for general fund also their are laws in place to make sure the money or the department is not to be utilized for special interest groups as well. 
You may ask why but the big reason is democracy and to be used by the masses not by a few. So basically public land is for the public.

Now lets get back to the loop hole which is in the Environmental Protection Act 451 section 324=42104 which names state land which totals over 177,000 acres that can limit and stop hunting, trapping and dog training. This is ANTI-HUNTING language and their is no reason for this to stay in the books or to stay law.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Hunters Edge said:


> This is ANTI-HUNTING language and their is no reason for this to stay in the books or to stay law.


:banghead3 In this country there are very few states that are not run by the anti-hunt or anti-gun types.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Hunters Edge said:


> What, how can hunters benefit, with special interest groups limiting and even stopping hunting, trapping and dog training on PUBLIC land?


There IS hunting, there IS trapping AND there is a HIGH quality use that benefits bird dog hunters, all on the same pin prick size piece of state land. True multi-use!


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Couple more field trial benefited dogs.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

dauber said:


> Here is a hunt that can be attributed to the breeding from field trials. Cockers wouldn't be anything like this if not for field trials. Many hunters benefit.


That is debatable, and has been for years and most likely will be debated well after I am dead and gone.
The debate usually is between show vs field trial individuals. It should be in a different thread and not in GFTA, again trying to change subject.

I will add that field trials have been linked to altering or breeding out of standard wanting a smaller harder running dog to compete. Also it had produced high strung dogs that are not suitable to the original breeds such as continental breeds which were evolved and began as one dog to do all. Another effect they have to hurt breeds for hunters is field trial clubs petitioned to remove water retrieve on field trials. Last known still having it in their trials is GWP but that was years ago and not sure if that even has been removed by now. So by eliminating a requirement it has allowed dogs that could not do a water retrieve to become a champion and to breed that into the gene pool, which has not helped hunters.

These are just a few examples on how field trials have not helped hunters and or dog breeds but just like the pictures it is a distraction from the thread and would appreciate it if we stuck with the subject GFTA.

Even if you continue to stray from the thread and post pics and such it will ultimately keep the thread growing and more people/public viewing which will in the end allow more individuals read about how public land is being monopolized by a special interest group. Doing this allows others to not only read but react, some will do nothing others may look into it and contact others, and some will actually contact their representatives to make a change. Some may even pass this thread to them to read to see just how public land is NOT used as public land.

I also want to add that in section 324-42101 in the Environmental Protection Act 451 it allow private land to be used for training and trial areas but the maximum acreage for each is 240 acres and only 6 in a county with a population over 100,000 the department may issue additional permits. So I believe Gladwin county in 2010 census was like just under 30,000 population so how can even state land be converted to use 4940 acres?

And if there is any private areas it could be well larger than this amount. How can a policy to keep training areas limited for wildlife and still allow dog training, testing, trialing directly related with human population be able to use over 5000 acres in a county with far less than the population to allow additional permits or acreage on private property?

The GFTA is still using funds directly or indirectly from hunters license fees. For trusts were set up from land purchased with hunters monies and the mineral rights and timber revenue off from land purchased with hunters monies is still taking away from what that money should be used for, conservation and or the scientific fish and wildlife management. Not to be used by a special interest group, which does nothing to benefit wildlife and actually makes money off of using state land (public land) while not allowing veterans and even disabled veterans access to those lands to hunt, trap or dog training along with non veterans who purchased that right by buying a hunting, trapping license from the state.

Matter of fact if you feel strongly that GFTA is misappropriation of funds, or that you do not want the limiting or stopping of hunting, trapping and dog training on over 177,000 acres of state land. Or you feel disabled veterans should have the right to hunt on all state land including GFTA. Or if you do not want special interest groups to monopolize state land and not allow other breeds to even use the land or water on STATE LAND. Or you feel public land should be open to the public. Or if you feel land purchased with hunters monies should not have that state land limited or stopped hunting trapping and dog training for a corporation to make money off using state land. Or if you feel purchasing a state hunting or furharvesting license the state should allow you to use state land or public land especially if not being used on that day by the special interest group. Or if you feel strongly about conservation and the Scientific fish and wildlife act and if any of the above you agree on please contact your state representative. I also will add you may want to pass this thread to them as well.
Below is a link to Michigan house of representatives.

http://house.michigan.gov/mhrpublic/frmRepList.aspx


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

This thread is about celebrating 100 years of excellence in outdoors use and management of state land. You my friend have been far off topic since. That is why I am posting pictures of the results ( not debatable to real bird hunters, anti hunters debate it), dogs successfully hunting. This is in line of the OP. You should start a new grip thread and leave us to continue our year long celebration!


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Celebrating 100 years of Gladwin and field trials!


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

100 years of hunters monies funding your games at the expense of wildlife management and hunters. 100 years of misappropriation of funds. I can see why field trailers are celebrating 100 years of using land they did not purchase and stop those who purchased it from using it.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

dauber said:


> No I do not run my dogs there. I will never run dogs there. I did the soil map review
> about 2010 though and have walked much of it. I am a person who can let others have a use of .1% of state land and not think they are hurting me.


How can you celebrate something you do not use and has no benefit to wildlife and an actual a detriment to wildlife by not managing wildlife populations?


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## huntmore (Feb 27, 2013)

That's a easy question to answer, were all dog guys . Some hunter hunt with lightly train dogs others hunt with a lot more like your vc dogs and that's fine it all personal preference. In my opinion if hunters don't support each other we all lose . From what I see most people Trialing up there hunt as well . I would suggest going up there and talking to the local residents to see what they think? It's real easy to throw stone from down here! There are a lot of us that travel south to hunt doves because we didn't stand together for hunting activities.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

No hunter or conservationist should support anti hunting legislation and not wildlife management. Especially on public land purchased with game and fish funds and deer license fees.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Dove hunting with the passing of the Scientific fish and wildlife act may actually happen, in Michigan. Thus the same reason for hunting doves WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT that you agree with is the same reasoning for Wildlife Management on GFTA.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Hunters Edge said:


> Dove hunting with the passing of the Scientific fish and wildlife act may actually happen, in Michigan. Thus the same reason for hunting doves WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT that you agree with is the same reasoning for Wildlife Management on GFTA.


Dove shooting now you have my attention...this should be in a different thread maybe?


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

gundogguy said:


> Dove shooting now you have my attention...this should be in a different thread maybe?


Why it is exactly the same reasoning wildlife management and use of public grounds to do so.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Hunters Edge said:


> Why it is exactly the same reasoning wildlife management and use of public grounds to do so.


Dove hunting in Michigan, whether private or public land can be placed in file 13. Not gonna happen.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

We as hunters are stewards not just of land but wildlife


gundogguy said:


> Dove hunting in Michigan, whether private or public land can be placed in file 13. Not gonna happen.


Dove hunting does not hurt the populations of doves. In states that allow or started managing populations by hunting, they observed an increase in population. This is accomplished because dove's have a high mortality rate, approximately 80%. Hunting actually takes away or utilizes the portion of the 80%. Thus leaving more food and healthier stock to replenish the population. This action is called wildlife management and was passed into law under the Scientific fish and wildlife act 2014. 
When they were trying to get the public and anti-hunters to understand the benefit to wildlife (dove's) by using sound scientific wildlife management would actually provide healthier and increase populations of dove's, they would not listen.

This is very similar if not the same as anti-hunters and field trailers in limiting and stopping wildlife management on public land referred to as GFTA (Gladwin Field Trial Area).


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Doves taste good


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

So does squirrel, rabbit, hare, turkey, bear, ducks, geese, grouse,woodcock, musk rat, raccoon if prepared properly. Deer harvested in the early archery season or during the liberty and youth hunt, all of which and more are prohibited on GFTA

Also bobcat, skunk, opossum, mink, weasel, coyote, fox may not taste well or are not usually ate but their populations along with the wildlife above needs to be managed.

For example, have you wondered why deer hunting is allowed after November 14th.? We just have to look at recent example of what took place on private property but more importantly is why. Kensington park had to hire sharpshootes to reduce deer populations. They were in effect eating themselves out of house or home. Next generation of growth gone, native plants and trees, shrubs continually being ate down.
So if all the cutting of timber to make food and habitat would be little gain if any at all if deer populatios are not managed. At least this is one idea for it makes sense. Another idea is because of environmental protection act 451 they legally could not stop hunting and trapping altogether as it was prior with act 82 of 1947 which was repealed when environmental protection act 451 of 1994 became law in 1995.

What is important act 82 of 1947 named GFTA. Environmental protection act 451 of 1994 Brighton, Highland, Ionia, Waterloo, Escanaba state forest area, and White Cloud area were added with Gladwin area in 324.42104. This can take 4940 acres to over 177,000 acres vulnerable to be lost to thousands who hunt and trap today.

For a hunter to be a pro dove season but to stop or limit hunting and trapping in essence stops game management seems to have hypocritical tendencies.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Hunters Edge said:


> So does squirrel, rabbit, hare, turkey, bear, ducks, geese, grouse,woodcock, musk rat, raccoon if prepared properly. Deer harvested in the early archery season or during the liberty and youth hunt, all of which and more are prohibited on GFTA
> 
> Also bobcat, skunk, opossum, mink, weasel, coyote, fox may not taste well or are not usually ate but their populations along with the wildlife above needs to be managed.
> 
> ...


I strongly suspect that the deer hunting restriction is in favor to the club along the north fence.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

No it is from the legislation that allows it. Which was instituted by field trailers which is the same reason why small game, waterfowl, turkey, bear and predator hunting is STOPPED, along with predator trapping. It is the same group who fights to keep it that way.

Yes it is the same special interest group who also stops specialty hunts, youth waterfowl hunt, liberty hunt, independence hunt.

It is the same group that practice theory and past practice, and similar thinking of the 1930s rational rather than sound scientific game management. Not only for the benefit of wildlife but to increase a specific species population
Which would not only produce more finds during a trial but would give more opportunity for judges. It would also make it safer for the dogs and all animals wild or domesticated along with human populatios in and around the area. This is done by keeping predator populations in check by using wildlife management.

So I highly doubt mid forest lodge has anything to do with the limit or stopping of hunting and trapping on public land referred to as GFTA. Also if that were the case look at large tracts such as Canada Creek ranch,Turtle Lake club etc. there is no other interest, other than field trailers or anti hunters who limit or stop hunting using legislation in Michigan that I am aware of.

Also those large tracts of private hunting clubs practice and promote wildlife management rather than limit or stop it, from what I am aware of.


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