# Raising ethical hunters



## Tom222 (Oct 21, 2000)

I crawled into my tree stand in the pre-dawn, and thanked God for the quiet of the morning. I told God that I didn't need to get a deer this morning, but it would be nice if He sent something through to keep me interested.
Shortly after first light, a red fox hurried through as if he was late for a meeting. 5 min. after that, a small deer that had been kicked away by Mom, came walking in. She stood under my stand, and sniffed the ground that I had walked over less than an hour before.
I watched the little deer for an hour as she scoured the ground for acorns. I could have shot her a hundred times over, but there would be little sport in it. Also, this is next year's deer. I have always taught the kids to let the little ones be.
The neighbor shot his doe the night before, and his gun went off on 3 seperate times this morning. I wondered how many deer he was putting on his doe tag, and I was a little angry.
The drizzle began this morning, and I had things to do in the house, so I decided it was time to climb out. As I walked back to the house, I found myself staring at the little doe. I had assumed that she had moved on, but there she was.
Her tail went up, and she trotted away. She crossed onto another neighbors land, and I heard the guns begin to blaze away. I shook my head and went home disgusted.
The kids came in, and I told them that the law of the land was, "If it's brown it's down". I said, "I don't care anymore, if you want to fill your doe tags on the little ones, go ahead. They won't survive the season anyway."
My words were spoken in anger and I never should have said them. I was proud that both the kids gave me the same "what's wrong with you" look. Holly said, "I'm not shooting little ones". TJ responded the same.
I'm proud of my kids. The lessons taught have stuck with them.
Teach your children well. Raise ethical hunters


----------



## Kevin (Oct 4, 2000)

Nice post Tom. 


I do not know enough about deer management or such things to say anyone else should or should not shoot young does, but you sure nailed the most important part: Raise your children to be responsible ethical people, and they will make you proud.

Good luck the rest of the season!


----------



## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

I feel the same way. Damn shame about the yearlings......
My daughter has never killed a deer and passed up 2 young ones already. Good Girl 

She did miss a nice doe, so at least she got some shootin.


----------



## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

liberal antlerless tags has caused the "brown it's down" hunters too come from everywhere. I hunt more for the experience than to "Kill" a deer. Keep passing the little ones. It will pay off 10 fold one day.


----------



## uniborn (Aug 30, 2002)

I dont want to get into a debate over this subject but I think something needs to be done over the blatent disrespect to our great outdoors.
Everywhere I go its, "if its brown its down". I now know why I dont see more than a couple deer every other day. When I do see a little button or younin I pass and within minutes of them walking off they are being blasted at. 
The other day I wittnessed a couple guys( the day before gun season) blast a yearling and carry this "dog" off to where ever it was they were going and I here em yell thars one,get em, Blam blam blam. I said something to them but they got redneckitus so I hussled my boy and I off back to the house. From what I see West Michigan is full of deer terminators. You mention anything about any sort of Qdm and its "Who are you to say....blah blah blah..."
I moved over here from the Saginaw valley area because this land is beautiful and I love to hunt and fish the runs. Boy was I fooled by the illusion of land plentiful in game. Sure there is some deer over here but my God are there alot of violators. I wont mention the fishing . Now I know what people are saying to themselves. Turn em in right. Ive tried. By the time the Dnr or forest rangers make it to this area the culprits are long gone. We obviously need more enforcement around here, no actually we need to band together and string some of these people up! 
Sorry I had to get that out.
This is precisely why about 10 years ago I left the Oscoda area. 
Thanks for letting me vent guys.
uniborn


----------



## Blackeagle (Jun 8, 2002)

While the "It's brown it's down" attitude has been around for a number of years now the economic down turn of the last 3 years has made it worse. There are always lower income people who hunt hard for all the meat they can get, and the size of animal is secondary to getting as many as they legally can. But with the economy down the last 3 years it's created this imperative in thousands of hunters accross the state, that weren't that way before.

I myself have not felt the economic pinch this time around. But I do recall having been there back at the start of the eightys. I'll tell you that I worked real hard that fall, I ran miles of traps, and hunted to fill a 15 cubic ft. freezer, and did. I took 2 eight points, 33 ducks, 8 geese, 8 pheasants and I honestly don't recall how many quail & rabbits I shot that fall. The only violation in all I did during that year and the next was to carry a rifle with me often times while on my traplines. But if it was in season it was going home with me.

Had someone challanged me on how I should have done it differant he'd have been lucky if I just asked him if he knew of a way to take more legally for the same time and effort.

It really bothers me to see people posting in judgement of someone who is hunting legally, but not following THIER PERSONAL standards for thier OWN behavior. You can offer to teach someone a way to improve habitat for game of all kinds ect. and I'd be the first to cheer ya on. But if faced with the same economic situation, many posting how they'd never do THAT might well find themselves doing the very same thing. Or perhaps even going farther and find themselves casting a outlaws shadow.

To much sitting in judgement will soon eliminate hunting, and those thinking they own the high ground are the ones who will help the anti hunters the most.


----------



## boltaction (Dec 5, 2001)

Excellent post Tom, right on.


----------



## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

Great post Blackeagle, this holier than though attitude that some have turns me off to deer hunting. You have some that look down on you for taking a Doe. Now with QDM advocates you have them looking down on you for taking less then a mature buck. If it's done legal,,,what's the problem??? All QDM is going to do if water down the herd and instead of the hard working hunters and the few lucky ones taking big bucks,,,everyone will have them. Then the pole will be raised to only deer with 20" spread or better or you'll be looked down upon. I hate this whole thing,,,it makes me feel sick inside everytime I think of it. I can see it now,,,,man, Michigan has monster bucks,,,,hunters from all over the country will lease up huge tracks of land and then the reglar Joe doesn't have a place to hunt. Seems like Texas has a similar situation. Lot's of huge bucks,,,,,but if you want to play,,,you got to pay. What's that old saying, Better watch for what you hope for,,,it might come true. 

I thinks its great to teach ethics of Law and how nature works, but one person thinks is just a deer another covets it as a trophy. 

Not all mature whitetails should get past 1 1/2 years old,,,just like not all horses are meant to breed or any other type of lifestock and some people.


----------



## jawbreaker (Aug 18, 2003)

I don't buy the economic hard time excuse for the slaughter that is today's hunting. There is a cost involved in hunting, gas to and from, shells, time, equipment up keep, licenses, etc....., if someone's excuse for shooting anything that walks by is "I have to feed my family", then use the time spent afield to get a part time job!!!! It would be far cheaper to work a little extra and buy meat at your local grocery. Plus you would help to stimulate the local ecomomy. Is this also an excuse for poaching?? I took a new guy at work to hunt in one of my spots once. A couple of days later I was headed out hunting. When I got to my spot I seen his car there. I thought o well no biggey. When I got to "MY" stand, a light comes on and there he is with a flash light in his mouth, standing, getting ready to draw his bow!!!!!! His excuse was "I gotta feed my family". I'm not trying to roust anyones feathers but I can't take what is happening to our deer heard quietly. I think we as hunters have to take responsibilty for "OUR" deer herd and to stop the slaughter or we won't have a herd worth hunting. Which I also think is already happening in some area's. I have hunted almost every day since the opening of bow season and I have seen maybe 15 deer total in a variety of spots around st. clair and sanilac counties. That's one deer every 3 days. I don't believe the DNR when they say the population is as large as it is.


----------



## jawbreaker (Aug 18, 2003)

BTW, I don't believe it is "unethical" to shoot any deer you see if it is a legal kill. I just don't believe we should. I also believe a button but should be tagged as a buck!!!!! And I also believe there should be mandatory check-in on every deer shot. And I also believe a butcher should not be able to legally process a deer if it hasn't been tagged by the DNR at the mandatory check-in. But hey this is just me and it's a little off the subject sorry.


----------



## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

What we should really do is, shoot ONLY the little ones. I figure they eat less anyways and what little they do eat, will take away from the big bucks. Those bucks need their strength to make it,,,,,<<<<< sarcasm

I'm gonna stop right there 


Great post, blackeagle!


----------



## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

I think people shoot deer just to say they shot a deer. They compeate more with eachother than they do with the animal. This thing called hunting is a sport right? Me against mother nature.


----------



## Blackeagle (Jun 8, 2002)

The "slaughter" in the hunting seasons now seen in MI. is in no way connected to those hunting for their freezer.

Those individuals hunting for meet, do so close to home, they don't have the money for hunting trips. The two seasons I felt complelled to fill the freezer my hunting and traping was ALL done within a radius of 4 miles of my house. Not to much travel costs, gas ect. involved in that. And those individuals hunting as I did are also 1) a small % of the hunting population, most of all those with the skills to take game in numbers that can really impact a limited areas game. 2) stop taking all they can as soon as they find a good pay'n job again.

I know I didn't kill like that from those days to now, once I found a good job again.

The "slaughter" is being directed and driven by our own DNR when in regard to our deer herd. Why do they issue almost unlimited doe tags year after year? Could it be to make the automotive insurance companys happier? Where I live there is NO biologicaly sound reason for it, as there are fewer deer than the land can carry, with ease. 

I think what is needed most is for our DNR to be REQUIRED to provide much better herd population figures than they do now. I believe that the figures given by the DNR are badly over estimated ones, at best & at worst...........


----------



## jawbreaker (Aug 18, 2003)

My apologies to anyone that I may have offended on this thread, was not intended. I guess I was venting a bit. I guess my frustration with the whole thing is from a few bad apples. Shortly before replying to this post I heard a story about a guy that has already shot "5" deer this year, and he hasn't bought a tag for any of them. It is the last thing I want to do is group any of the members of this site with people like that. Again my apologies.


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by William H Bonney _
> *What we should really do is, shoot ONLY the little ones. I figure they eat less anyways and what little they do eat, will take away from the big bucks. Those bucks need their strength to make it,,,,,<<<<< sarcasm
> 
> I'm gonna stop right there and put it as simple as I can,,,
> ...


I hate to break the news to you, but scientific data has already proven that QDM works. Where's your data proving that it doesn't work?


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Coldwater Charters _
> *Great post Blackeagle, this holier than though attitude that some have turns me off to deer hunting. You have some that look down on you for taking a Doe. Now with QDM advocates you have them looking down on you for taking less then a mature buck. If it's done legal,,,what's the problem??? All QDM is going to do if water down the herd and instead of the hard working hunters and the few lucky ones taking big bucks,,,everyone will have them. Then the pole will be raised to only deer with 20" spread or better or you'll be looked down upon. I hate this whole thing,,,it makes me feel sick inside everytime I think of it. I can see it now,,,,man, Michigan has monster bucks,,,,hunters from all over the country will lease up huge tracks of land and then the reglar Joe doesn't have a place to hunt. Seems like Texas has a similar situation. Lot's of huge bucks,,,,,but if you want to play,,,you got to pay. What's that old saying, Better watch for what you hope for,,,it might come true.
> 
> I thinks its great to teach ethics of Law and how nature works, but one person thinks is just a deer another covets it as a trophy.
> ...


OK, lets apply that logic to fishing. Who are you to tell me I can't keep every fish I catch? I think that I should be able to keep every fish I catch regardless of size or number of fish I've already caught. I need to feed my family. I guarantee that you would be the first to raise a stink if the DNR was considering removing all the fishing regulations. Seems kinda hypocritical that you are for the management of 1 animal but not the management of another.

P.S. How does QDM "water down the herd"? If 20% of Michigan's deer were bucks 2-1/2 years or older, then how would only the "lucky few" shoot nice deer? QDM doesn't reduce the total number of deer, it only shifts the age structure to a more mature population.


----------



## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Did somebody skip a dose this morning?


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2003)

No I didn't "skip a dose"! lol! It just rubs me wrong when hunters do not want to manage their deer to have the healthiest herd possible. It's not rocket science; it's quite simple logic actually. Too many have been mis-informed and make broad generalizations based on the little information they have. No worries, I'm calm! If you don't want discussion here then I guess I can leave it be. I just thought these forums were set up to discuss.


----------



## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Coldwater Charters _
> *Great post Blackeagle, this holier than though attitude that some have turns me off to deer hunting. You have some that look down on you for taking a Doe. Now with QDM advocates you have them looking down on you for taking less then a mature buck. If it's done legal,,,what's the problem??? All QDM is going to do if water down the herd and instead of the hard working hunters and the few lucky ones taking big bucks,,,everyone will have them. Then the pole will be raised to only deer with 20" spread or better or you'll be looked down upon. I hate this whole thing,,,it makes me feel sick inside everytime I think of it. I can
> -snip
> Not all mature whitetails should get past 1 1/2 years old,,,just like not all horses are meant to breed or any other type of lifestock and some people. *


Not anywhere near what true QDM promotes. QDM promotes a healthy heard of diverse age structure, at or slightly below the carrying capacity of the land. Has nothing to do with growing and shooting monster bucks. What you are saying above is a perversion of QDM that some people try to promote. 

I won't go any further into details, as that is for the QDM section, or pm me and I can explain true QDM, and some of the reasoning
(not that I fully agree with it) for antler restrictions in the name of QDM.


----------



## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

> _Originally posted by BuckBass _
> * But obviously you are grossly mis-informed. *



I agree with almost everything you said, but the last part is unnecessary and counterproductive.


----------



## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jawbreaker _
> *My apologies to anyone that I may have offended on this thread, was not intended. I guess I was venting a bit. I guess my frustration with the whole thing is from a few bad apples. Shortly before replying to this post I heard a story about a guy that has already shot "5" deer this year, and he hasn't bought a tag for any of them. It is the last thing I want to do is group any of the members of this site with people like that. Again my apologies. *


If this is truly the case, you need to call the rap line and report him. That is poaching pure and simple.


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ESOX _
> *I agree with almost everything you said, but the last part is unnecessary and counterproductive. *


Sorry, I fixed it.


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Please keep the QDM discussion in the QDM Forum.

This began as an excellent thread with Tom's comments, but is rapidly deteriorting into the same ol' same ol' venting on both sides of the QDM issue.

Tom,
Your comments, as usual, are noteworthy and have the ring of wisdom.


----------



## IWantMeatinFreezer (Oct 2, 2003)

Sorry your fish refrence does not work I have actually read some studies recently that by taking all of the bigger fish we take all of the fish with good genetic make up and then we just leave the geneti make-up of the small fish. So are we doing the same with deer. By taking only the bigger deer are we leaving only the less dominate genetic deer out there. Just a question.


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

ferg....


----------



## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Not the same, they are saying to take only mature deer, not just the absolute largest. The mature deer are the bigger ones.


----------



## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

just because a deer is mature does not mean that he has the biggest rack. one thing you cannot control on free ranging deer is the genetics so lets throw that out the window. try again.


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by IWantMeatinFreezer _
> *Sorry your fish refrence does not work I have actually read some studies recently that by taking all of the bigger fish we take all of the fish with good genetic make up and then we just leave the geneti make-up of the small fish. So are we doing the same with deer. By taking only the bigger deer are we leaving only the less dominate genetic deer out there. Just a question. *


My point was to expose the inconsistancy of some sportsmen who believe that we need regulations to manage the state's fishery but get upset when regulations are proposed to manage the state's deer population. Maybe my analogy wasn't the greatest...


----------



## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

Because this was moved to the QDM forum I removed my earlier post and sent a PM to Tom.
Sorry that something so good went corrupt so fast.
All Tom meant to say is he is proud that his kids have grown up to respect what is right.
What does QDM have to do with that? Please no response wanted to that question.


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

BuckBass,
My mind went into cold storage for a bit there after reading through the posts. You are correct and I apologize. I saw your name and read another member's name who did take the conversation "over the edge".

I apologize for the accusation and confusion that my rush to type caused.

Farmlegend,
Thanks for hitting me in the head with a 2x4, to awaken me from my stupor.


----------



## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

Actually Farm legend it was Blackeagle that got the ball rolling. I have no idea where any of you are from. All I know is my general area,,,,there is no shortage of deer here and the heard is very healthy. Now, granted not every buck you see is mature either, most are in the 1 1/2 year class. If the DNR set the regs to say, bucks with less then 4 points on a side would be illegal and only bucks with 4 points on a side would be legal. And any deer with no visible horns would be considered a Doe and fall under the Doe restrictions then yes that would be fine with me. The way it is now, we have big buck advocates with scientific proof,,,,from who knows where or who, that our deer heard would some how be healthier then it is now. Let's face it,,,health has nothing to do with it,,,big bragging wall hanging antlers is what this debate is about,,,,,nothing else said here will wash ,,,at least by me. The way it is now,,,for a hunter to get a big buck consistently,,,,,they have to actually,,,scout,,,,know what the heck there doing out there while hunting,,,gain legal access to the land and then hunt that one buck exclusively,,,you know,,,earn the buck with QDM that will waterdown the actual hard work one has to do with bagging a big buck. There is no easy road to taking a mature whitetail,,,especially with a Bow. Of course if the QDM advocates would have it there way,,,taking a mature buck would be like walking across the street,,,anyone could do it. Nope,,,I like the old fashion way,,,,do the work,,,,,,and be rewarded,,,if that's what you want. If you don't need the I'm a big hunter self esteem for yourself by taking a huge buck and taking a smaller buck will do,,,that's great,,,oh yes,,,,legal too. If it isn't one thing it is another,,,,,my way or the highway will be the ruination of all hunting from the inside out. What ever happened to the saying "live and let live"

By the way Tom,,,,I would like to commend you for your post and I would like to apologize for my part in the direction it has went. To instill values in our youth is sometimes lost,,,but you have it in hand,,,congratulations, job well done.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Two words

Crystal Ball


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

How about - price per pound? I don't know about you guys - BUT - I'd much rather be paying 20 or 30 cents per pound for processing than 60 or 70 cents per pound - so It makes 'cents' to be looking for a much larger, mature deer to take to the processor, he's charging me $60.00 buck anyway - why make his job easy?

    

ferg....


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Quality vs. Quantity


----------



## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Since when is harvesting a yearling doe "unethical"?



> Now with QDM advocates you have them looking down on you for taking less then a mature buck.


I got news for you Coldwater, that comment is a load of crap.

Harvested doe's get just as big of a pat on the back as a harvested mature buck does, it just doesn't happen as often.



> hunters from all over the country will lease up huge tracks of land and then the reglar Joe doesn't have a place to hunt.


How many acres of field and marsh do you lease to support your "operation"? 

Interesting but tired argument of QDM "watering/dumbing down" the deer herd. 

Haven't you heard of natural selection? QDM will go much further strengthing this process, than the kill everybuck with 3"+ antlers, let the luckiest bucks do the breeding, Nov. 15th opener, sitting over bait piles is the only way to hunt in Michigan, deer management EVER will.


----------



## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

I have one more comment, we need to be doing a better job of policing our ranks, on two seperate occasions I witnessed a deer carcass in the back of people's trucks at various processing shops. These carcasses were skinned, headless and were tagged with antlerless permits. 

Just when you think you have seen it all, these jerks get more and more blatant. 

Made a quick call to the DNR, hope they fried those *ssholes! 

These are probably the same guys who complain about not seeing deer and are skewing the harvest figures, shooting themselves and others right in the foot. 

Wonder how many times similar situations were repeated all over our great state! 

An "ethical" hunter wouldn't even consider doing such a thing.


----------



## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Before we swallow the notion that restraint in the harvest of yearling bucks, adequate doe harvest, and habitat enhancements (eg., QDM) will somehow result in a "dumbing down" of deer hunting, by making the harvest of wallhanger bucks a common occurrence, we would do well put our thinking caps on.

Implicit in the idea that QDM would make taking big bucks too easy is the suggestion that QDM would result in unnaturally creating lots of adult bucks for hunter harvest.

The plain reality is that our current Michigan harvest practices (gross exploitation of the 1.5 year old buck component of the herd, and frequent INadequate doe harvests), HAVE RESULTED IN AN UNNATURAL DEER HERD, with mature bucks entirely absent in many areas, and a bizarre adult doe:buck ratio. The unnatural phenomena is what we have now, and QDM would be powerful medicine to correct our imbalances and provide a more natural age/sex structure to our deer herd.


----------



## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

Swamp ghost,,,if you must know,,,I only have a couple leases and they are very small. It is not cost effective to lay down allot of cash for a couple hunts a year in a given area for me,,,maybe other guide services pay the big bucks but not me. 

As far as my load of crap statement,,,,,you never bothered to mention the less then mature bucks as being looked down upon,,,so your comeback had a little of that in it too Although according to the DNR it is quite legal to harvest smaller racked bucks,,,,just not up to QDM standards because they think the deer herd will suffer and be unhealthy because of such a practice. Now that is a load of crap IMO. It's all about the wall mount and all the big puffed out chest that comes with it. 

I think it all comes down to commitment. Do I want to commit countless hours that are needed to take a book buck or do I want to make it easier and make anyone that takes a 1 1/2 old buck [fork horn, spike or a 6 point and even some eight points]feel like the lowest thing on earth so people will only shoot mature bucks out of guilt and thus so I can have more chances and less time to take my whopper buck and not have to be all that good of a hunter to do it. Those are the real facts...I could really care less about deer hunting mainly because it interfears with my waterfowl hunting,,,but for folks to bully others because of their beliefs is just plain wrong especially when done legally and acording to the DNR regs.

"Live and let Live"

You can't control people, places and things and never will be able to.

"Live and let Live"

Of course we would all like to see more and more bigger bucks. But the facts are,,,,a trophy is in the eye of the beholder and not up for public review. What one hunter thinks is a trophy another hunter thinks is a great Steak dinner. I have shot plenty of big bucks in my life time and have only one mounted on the wall and I have shot many bigger ones before and after. I don't save any horns or make my little shrine to the deer gods,,,,I could care less. But if you have your deer heads mounted or at least the horns,,,,I think that's great and always like to look at them and hear the story's behind the hunt. This is a very passionate subject and can easily get personal. The part I hate the most about QDM is the look some of them give others for shooting less then what they would while in the woods. What you do is totally up to you, but don't judge others for taking deer legally and ethically.


----------



## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

I have one more comment, hey didn't I read that on another post Anyways, if you folks can get the DNR to buy this and their bioligist I'll be all for it. Then if you shoot less then 4 points on one side it will not only be looked down upon,,,it will be illegal.

Farm legend I do agree with you on the buck to doe ratio's. Take the second buck tag away,,,,that would work 2 fold for the QDM advocates. It would leave more 1 1/2 year old deer in the woods. A hunter may let a few pass to get the wall hanger and also not cut his season short but also risk not getting anything at all which can always happen on any given year. This would also put more pressure to take Does to fill the freezer. To me that makes the most sense.


----------



## Tom222 (Oct 21, 2000)

Wow, I go away for a couple days and I see that I've opened a can of worms here.
First, let me say that one neighbor owns 40 acres of prime land and has a good paying job. The other neighbor is a local buisiness owner who lives in a new home that dwarfs mine.
This was not a matter of hunger.
I can only quote one neighbor here, "Liberal doe permits will kill deer hunting. I just don't see deer like I used to".
My OWN person view of hunting, is that it's a challenge, pitting myself against a worthy adversary. This little 6 month old doe was with out mom to help keep her out of trouble. I'm a meat hunter. I'd love a big buck, but it's not my goal. 
Again, my OWN personal opnion is that there just isn't too much sport in a kill like this, any more than a boxing match between Gov. Arnold and Woody Allen.
If you guys are good with killing the little ones, that is YOUR opinion, and you have every right to it. I'm just proud of the choices that my kids are making.
I will not be re-visiting this thread, so feel free to tear me up.


----------



## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Back to the origianl post:



> _Originally posted by Tom222 _
> *My words were spoken in anger and I never should have said them. I was proud that both the kids gave me the same "what's wrong with you" look. Holly said, "I'm not shooting little ones". TJ responded the same.
> I'm proud of my kids. The lessons taught have stuck with them.
> Teach your children well. Raise ethical hunters *



Hey Tom, 
I liked your post and congrats to you. But your post also bring up another point. To bad more parent's couldn't teach there kids lessons in life. Being up here in college is tough, but I live by what my parent's taught me and what I have seen them do. Sorry to get off the subject.


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Tom,
You didn't open the can and it only contained "worms" put there by others.

I've known how you have brought your girls up to love the outdoors and to respect deer and deer hunting.

You have no need to apologize for anything.

Say "hello" to your daughters for me!


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Coldwater Charters _
> *...I could really care less about deer hunting mainly because it interfears with my waterfowl hunting...*


I don't mean to be a jerk here, but if you don't care about deer hunting, then why are you involved in this discussion? Those of us who don't care about waterfowl hunting aren't stinking up the waterfowl forum with arguments that don't affect us...


----------



## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

Well Buck Bass I can tell you a thing or 2 about deer hunting as I have logged more hours hunting whitetail here in Michigan then 90% of Michigan's deer hunters here in this state. Just because I no longer get my kicks out of hunting deer doesn't mean my opinions are meaningless. You my friend have to get a grip I think on others opinions. I really don't care what type of hunting we are talking about,,,when I see bully mentality tactics being used,,,you folks call it [peer pressure] I call it intimidation, I'm definitely going to jump in. When the DNR segments out a given county or the whole state on the one buck tag and no buck with less then 4 on one side will be legal I'm all with you,,,until then,,,,let those that shoot less then a mature buck revel in their accomplishment no matter what you think. 

Oh on the interfere with waterfowling subject. Deer hunters take president over all hunting. If I have 1,000 ducks on a pothole that is where someone is bow hunting,,,,I am out of luck 50% of the time. I've learn to deal with that real quick. You can't change people places and things,,,so I move on down the road and find something else. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Southern Michigan deer herd. They are very, very healthy,,,even though there is an abundance of younger bucks verses "mature" [big horns, big ego] bucks. If you can kill a mature 3 1/2 year old deer or older consistantly be it with a gun or a bow under these conditions,,,,you are a very accomplished hunter and my hats off to you,,,,you earned that compliment. 

Now these are just "my" opinions they may be wrong,,,they may be right. Under the current DNR regs if it's legally taken no hunter should be looked down upon by his fellow hunters. No one knows a persons mind or needs. To me this type of mentallity will be the demise of our hunting fraternity, killed from the inside out by the constant "my way or your a low life attitudes".


----------



## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Coldwater, as soon as you find where a QDM'r chastises someone for legally taking any buck, it will add some validity to your arguement.


I guess the one thing I can't get over is the fact that so many aren't in it for the horns, yet fill the buck pole with 1.5 year old bucks that are outnumbered by does 3-5:1 in every area of the state. 

There is no reason why the doe harvest shouldn't be 1.5-2X the antlered buck harvest. You have virtually equal oppurtunities to harvest both bucks and does. But the "I got my buck now it's 4 points or better" is standard here in good ol' MI.


----------



## brokenarrow (Oct 6, 2003)

In the 80's we practiced "if its brown its down" Stemmend by the WDNR telling uswe had a deer behind every tree, not that I couldn't look for my self though. We have a highway infront of our 160 acres, it is a 2 lane slaughter house no rules no limits, 24/7. Get just 2 miles off the highway and if the deer is not killed by a hunter it has a good chance to get very old.
That being said, We realized that we need to stop shooting fawns. The nubbys were tasty but soon we were not seeing any bucks or many that lived past 2 1/2 yrs. After that we stopped shooting does because in my field year in and out we would see only 1-3 deer most of the time by Nov. " none" Within 3 years we were able to start taking a doe here and there based on our sightings and the amount killed on the highway. Soon after that we all were harvesting beyond the ears or better with around a 45% to 50% success rate. I would say we have done well with our management.
My son decided to take up bow hunting this year, he has always gun hunted but never really was strong enough to pull back 45# which is what I require for my kid to shoot at a deer with. 
Anyway, I too am very proud of this infection that seems to have spread into the younger ones in my group. The kids are allowed to shoot any buck they want but I tell them it would be nice if they try to use a sliding scale, Like a fork this year and try for a 6 next you get the pic. But I also say to take any animal they want untill they get experiance. My son had a spike under him for 20 min. his first night with the bow. I asked him why he did not take it, he said " DAD IT WAS A BAMBI" I could not of been more proud! Since then he has let a fork and a small 6 pointer grow, he has stated to me that if he is killing a deer for meat it will be a doe, since he dont like veni he is killing a deer for the antlers and it will have 8 points or better or he will not shoot the buck! He will take a doe this winter for ME! LOL. But he has told me that if the adults can hold off for a ANTLERED buck so can he. He is 16 and never shot a deer yet with the bow. He has more pride in what he stands for than I ever had at his age. Right or wrong it is his decision to join the adults in practicing our form of qdm. I am proud of him and whether it is right or wrong to hunt just for the antlers is not the statement here because any deer harvested on my land will be ate by someone and will enjoy his kill just as much as he is enjoying his mount someday.

What do you guys think of his attitude about hunting? Is it right or wrong? He dont eat much meat and is not against eating veni, he will but only in a sloppy joe LOL. Oh well whats your take on his attitude and am I wrong for letting him hunt knowing he dont want the harvest for his eating? 
Thanks guys, I can take bad news with good so please be honest.
Brokenarrow


----------



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Brokenarrow, it sounds like your son is hunting to spend time with dad. It also sounds like he is putting the welfare of the deer herd ahead of his ego based on his harvest decisions. Let him hunt, when he starts to shoot too many deer for *you* to eat, give them away.


----------



## brokenarrow (Oct 6, 2003)

Bob S.

I think you have mis understood what I was asking/saying. He is hunting for antlers and the challenge that a 3 1/2 yr. old and older brings to the woods. He is not hunting because he likes or cares to eat venison. That is ok as far as I see it, but I also am teaching him that he will need to take a doe now and then as the herd in my area grows. So basically is hunting for antlers and giving away the meat acceptable?

Most of the time he is trying to get away from me, LOL Like alot of teens who spend all of their lives living with DAD! He has NO restrictions, just suggestions from the owners of the land
(Me and his mom). LOL. When he started hunting 4 years back
I could care less if I shot anything at all, in fact the first 2 years he hunted untill he got a decent buck, I raised my own standards to 10 points or better , (got skunked too the second year, LOL) 

The future of hunting will be determined by our youth of today. How and what we teach them will play a huge role in it's outcome. I ask questions so I may see a side that I may not see as a responsible DAD and outdoorsman. Somethings that we learn are from others actions and too often the adults of this world do not practice what they preach.


----------



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Brokenarrow, I did misunderstand what you meant. Myself, I don`t have a problem with him hunting for a trophy and then giving the meat away. As long as the meat gets used and is not left to rot in the woods, it seems OK to me. Just try to keep encouraging him to also look at the overall management aspect of hunting.


----------



## chaindrive (Nov 25, 2003)

Theres a couple problems in michigan and first is local hunters in secluded areas killing deer for profit rather then filling there freezers to live. Ever time I head north I see more and more trailers with junk cars and garbage laying around in the woods. Alot of these folks dont care about the enviroment or the deer populations and or management of deer in there areas. Also, alot of folks from down state head north and have little respect for these same areas and have alot of money so basicly its diss-respect for the outdoors and the habitat that live there thats lacking. The only way to fix this is more education and alot more enforcement on the part of the DNR and other police agencies. I would like to see new hunters having to take classes on deer management and proper hunting ethics before receiving a liscense. Also,in my opinion, out of state folks have it to easy getting a license to hunt deer and other wildlife in michigan. Now Im sure alot of folks wont like my trailer statement but hey at least you can keep what little you have picked up and or taken care of instead of using the woods as a personal dump. I dont have much but what i have i take care of...Old school beliefs are fading fast and hunting seems to be headed that way too. Oh , one more thing...wack em and stack em is the worst way that Ted Nugent can describe hunting....


----------



## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Congrats Tom

You might not of been a sucessful hunter but you're a sucessful father.

What's more important, passing on a young deer or passing your knowledge to your children.


----------

