# Cover Dog Trial ?



## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

birddawger said:


> Bobby, thanks for clearing up the location thing for me. How far apart are the exhibitions? (Meredith to Gladwin) Is it doable to get to each place during the same weekend?
> It sounds like you know a lot about cd trials. Are they judged by a point system? Is it common for people to "judge" their own dog? I'm not too sure about that. I know that someone may have the most integrity in the world but I just can't see how judging your own dog can be objective. I know what kennel blindness some people have and I don't believe they could judge their dog objectively even if they were the most honorable person alive. It would be sort of like a parent judging their own child in a gymnastics competitions I think. If I am wrong please explain it to me.
> Sorry if my questions are ignorant or stupid but I really want to learn about this stuff and I want to make an informed choice. It sort of sounds like NASTRA might be fairer but my dogs are not the best retrievers. :sad:


 Birdawger, NSTRA now has an Open/Amateur format. It is designed for those that want to come and try out NSTRA. You will be braced with another dog that has less then 3 open points, none of those points can come from a first place finish.
It is run under the exact same rules as the open, but the judges are there to answer any questions and help you get started.
This format has really started to take off for NSTRA. We (Mi Region) have picked up several new members from it.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

The Coverdog trials in Michigan are well attended by amateur handlers in the Open stakes. The amateurs in Michigan compete well against the pro handlers. It is a very small group of folks running CD in Michigan, maybe 100 different people (and that would include the owners of dogs with the local pros) From that group of 100 probably 30 are either too new or too old or have some reason not to judge. That leaves 70 CD guys to judge. We bring in folks as we can from other venues, but they are busy in these other venues.
We have at least 13 trials per year, 3 stakes per trial, sometimes 4. 2 judges per stake, that's 39 plus stakes per year, 78 judging assignments. There is always a friend or training partner or brother in law or breeder or some one you had a disagreement with sitting in the saddle at any particular stake. You deal with it. If you are in the saddle you leave this stuff in the truck and judge what you see that day and come to an agreement with your judging partner. This isn't life and death, these are, for most of us, games we play after work and on weekends. We like to win, that's why we compete, but regardless of what happens in any trial the sun still rises in the east every single morning. When that stops happening it would be time to worry.


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## critter trapper (Feb 9, 2004)

" Besides if you know any thing about NSTRA you know most of those dogs are *trained* to follow 4 wheeler\
tracks."

Terry, Would it safe to say that you train for your format the way it is run. You dont train your dogs in CRP to run in the Coverdog Trials, do you? I think it would safe to say that you should train your dogs for the format in which you run. When most of us train for NSTRA , We run them in braces, planted of fourwheeler, and train the way a brace would be run. I know that when I am preparing for a trial, I do not head north to the grousewoods to do so(it doesn't make sense). Doesn't Mike Cherry have a field that he trains his dogs in, although he lives near the grousewoods. I am not saying that dogs don't learn how to track, Besides the judges are riding fourwheelers as well, so how well does it actually work. What I am saying is that you cannot take just any dog and train it to track a fourwheeler and win in NSTRA, it takes a bird dog.

Chris


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## birddawger (Feb 10, 2010)

Thank you Bobby. I understand that cover doggers are a small group. (Your numbers clearly point that out) However, you still haven't answered an important question for me:




birddawger said:


> Ok. That helps me a little. I think I understand that it would be a small group of people but wouldn't a professional have a financial interest in judging a dog that he trained/handled?


And to go a step further, is that even ethical? I cannot imagine that a dog and trainer do not develop a deep bond (I know if I sent my dogs to a trainer I would want them to connect). 

Please understand that I am not trying to interfere with how things are done. I just kinda want to know what I would be getting myself into. I have followed this stuff for a while and it appears to me that there could be a large expense involved if I did this several weekends in a row. 

How are field trial pros compensated? From an outside perspective, I would think that there performance would have a lot to do with customer base and performance. If I chose to play the cd game do I need to hire a pro so ny dog would be "judged" fairly or would it be best to stick to the amateur class?


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

You are reading a single thread from another board that has run it's course. This situation is not "normal." This is the exception. Bobby Ecker has stated in that other thread that his customers are not running their dogs in this particular trial that he is Judging. The other judge doesn't participate on these boards but I would have no qualms running under these conditions with these men.
These are not dogs the pros own, they would be customers dogs and some one else would be handling the dogs, maybe the owner, maybe another handler. It would certainly be unethical (and I believe against the rules (not the just the guidelines)) to judge a dog that you own, regardless of the handler. Most pros don't own the dogs on their string.

Pros generally make their living with monthly fees paid by the owners, entrance fee's paid by the owner and some pros charge expense fee's when they are on the road. Purses in the CD world are small. In a well attended weekend trial you could win $400 for 1st place. I once won $258 for a 2nd place finish in a 42 dog draw, 30 minute stake. These guys don't make a livin' on winners purses. I also won $38 for a 2nd place puppy win. It not the Mega Millions Lotto.

Again, in this game the participant group is small. We all know each other. When you sit in the saddle you throw out preconceived notions and Judge the dogs that are loosed in front of you. 

Come on up and spend a few days this spring at the different events. The spring is the best time for spectating. The cover is down and you see more dog work and the interaction between dog & handler, handler & handler and the Judges.

Every weekend starting April 2 thru May 2 there will be dogs running the grounds at Gladwin. The National Grouse & Woodcock Invitational Championship will run at Gladwin April 14-16. These are the top 14 point earning dogs from the past spring and fall season. This is the premier trial in the woods. If my memory serves me there is only one dog in this years trial that does not have a Champion title (she won a number of 1 hour stakes and a Classic last year) Many are multi Champions. These are the top winning dogs in the woods and all of the top pro's and many of the top amateur handlers have entries in this trial.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Birddawger I,m not worried my dog will be running in the Ont. Grouse Ch. If he doesn't place it won't be because of judging it will be because he got beat by a better dog. If your really worried about judging go to shoot to retrieve fro the dicussion going on it cut and dried the dog the finds the most birds wins.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> Birddawger I,m not worried my dog will be running in the Ont. Grouse Ch. If he doesn't place it won't be because of judging it will be because he got beat by a better dog. If your really worried about judging go to shoot to retrieve fro the dicussion going on it cut and dried the dog the finds the most birds wins.


Thats the the way to treat a potential member WD. CD should get you as an ambassador.:lol:

Birddawger take the advice given earlier, go check out the trials, if they fit the type of hunting and training you do, thats the one you will want to concentrate on.
They are all games nothing replaces the real hunting check them out and enjoy whichever one you do.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

birddawger said:


> Thank you Bobby. I understand that cover doggers are a small group. (Your numbers clearly point that out) However, you still haven't answered an important question for me:
> 
> 
> And to go a step further, is that even ethical? I cannot imagine that a dog and trainer do not develop a deep bond (I know if I sent my dogs to a trainer I would want them to connect).
> ...


As with any orgainization in which we choose to participate and spend our money, you have to have confidence in the integrity of its members and decide for yourself whether their ethical standards parallel yours. If you decide that you want to run in a trial and feel you would be at a disadvantage competing against pros, try the amateur stakes first. I'll bet as time goes on, if you're a competitive person, you will be chomping at the bit to participate in open stakes to see if you can beat them.

You won't find your answer on this board. You have to go out, actually attend some trials, walk braces, stay for the awards, talk to the members, talk to judges, and figure out for yourself whether you feel there is any funny business going on. I think if you attend both venues you'll find that the majority of the members are of the highest integrity. Put your question of whether owners/handlers can actually be impartial judges to a real world test by going out and attending the trials. I really believe that if there was rampant unethical behavior occurring on a consistent basis, the organization wouldn't last very long. Both of these venues have a long and proud history that you won't be able to appreciate unless you get out there and participate.

The worse thing that can happen is that you decide it isn't for you. Lastly, if a person can't affort to spend a few weekends attending some trials as an observer or participant, then this sport probably isn't for that person. Money is a factor if you become comeptitive.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> Birddawger I,m not worried my dog will be running in the Ont. Grouse Ch. If he doesn't place it won't be because of judging it will be because he got beat by a better dog. If your really worried about judging go to shoot to retrieve fro the dicussion going on it cut and dried the dog the finds the most birds wins.


 
Is this a change of heart for you in terms of judging Terry? Because it is inconsistent with what you have posted on this forum for years.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

birddawger said:


> Please understand that I am not trying to interfere with how things are done. I just kinda want to know what I would be getting myself into. I have followed this stuff for a while and it appears to me that there could be a large expense involved if I did this several weekends in a row.



It depends on what you call a "large expense"???

We live in destination city Up North. What do you think it costs to bring a family up here for a three day weekend, stay at a top resort like Crystal or Boyne, ski or snowboard every day, eat at nice places, bar bills,gas and incidentals??? Ditto snowmobiling for a family with 3 or more sleds, trailer, gas, nice motel, eats, bar bills, etc etc?? Or hauling a big boat up to TC in the summertime, stay at a nice hotel, dock at the Clinch Park marina, eat at the nice places uptown, visit the wineries, etc etc?? Or howabout a nice golf vacation, stay at the GT Resort, play Da Bear every day and play the casino every night?? Send the girls into TC to pillage on Front St??

What do ya think that stuff costs?? 

birddawger, thousands and thousands of MI folks do this kind of recreational activity every year, and think nothing of it. Trialing bird dogs, of any sort, as an Amateur, is a pittence compared to that kind of fun and games!!.:idea:

NB


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

My guess is if a guy like Bruce judged a trial in MI, and Scott or Mike ran their dogs in it, Scott and Mike would be judged harder than the rest of the field. A close call would go to the other dog. If it was an obvious win than both Judges and the people watching know it.

Each judge is different but this is a pretty small group of folks and these pro trainers understand that they too will be judged at the next venue.


Ben


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

No Fred what they did was still wrong(in my opinion) and wrong for all the wrong reasons.This isn't about judging a trial that they aren't qualified for this is about judging dogs they may have trained.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Worm Dunker said:


> No Fred what they did was still wrong(in my opinion) and wrong for all the wrong reasons.This isn't about judging a trial that they aren't qualified for this is about judging dogs they may have trained.


WD,

Would you like some cheese with that whine??

That trial is ancient history. SHF is eminently qualified to judge a hunting dog stake of any kind. The club officers pick the judges ...... period. You have no say in the matter, either then or now.

So here's a tip: *IF YOU DONT LIKE THE JUDGES, THEN DONT GO!!!*:idea:

NB


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Merimac said:


> My guess is if a guy like Bruce judged a trial in MI, and Scott or Mike ran their dogs in it, Scott and Mike would be judged harder than the rest of the field. A close call would go to the other dog. If it was an obvious win than both Judges and the people watching know it.
> 
> Each judge is different but this is a pretty small group of folks and these pro trainers understand that they too will be judged at the next venue.
> 
> Ben


Ben, I believe that you're right. I know Bruce and he's among the most honest guys I know. We've had conversions similar to this several times and I've always come away thinking he would always give every dog a fair shake. Any pro who judges risks damaging his valued reputation (and possibly his career) with judging improprieties--I don't think they can afford to take that chance.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Natty Bumpo I didn't bring it up I just answered Freds question. As for your question I didn't like it and I didn't go even though my dog was the past winner.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> Natty Bumpo I didn't bring it up I just answered Freds question. As for your question I didn't like it and I didn't go even though my dog was the past winner.


 
Terry,

I was not only speaking of the HD stake that I was honored to be asked to Judge by the Board of Directors while being endorsed by Rich and Bobby. 

I was also talking about all the posts you have made about "who is judging" "I can't get a fair shake" it is all in the back pages if you want me to do a bit of a search I would be happy to do so.

But I am going to get back to work right now, have a good day big guy!


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Fred your right as usual. You don't have to look it up I still think some of the weekend trials can be bias. But I don't think the championships can be.


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## birddawger (Feb 10, 2010)

Merimac said:


> My guess is if a guy like Bruce judged a trial in MI, and Scott or Mike ran their dogs in it, Scott and Mike would be judged harder than the rest of the field. A close call would go to the other dog. If it was an obvious win than both Judges and the people watching know it.
> 
> Ben


Is this pro from MI going to the Ontario?


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

I dunno, I think he is in Oklahoma or Kansas chasing quail with his posse of coverdogs. If I had to guess he would go and try and add to his list of current winnings. Scott or Mike will know they each have a dog on his truck.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I just called around and I guess none of the Mi. pros are going to the Ont. Grouse Ch. I guess I'm going to have to drive to Ky. to get my dog to Pa. go figure! These dog should qualify for some kind of frequent flyer mileage. He goes to Ky. to Pa then R.I. Northern Woodcock Ch. then back to Pa. for the Endurance. He comes back to Mi for the Invitational. He not entered just on the truck. Merimac are your dogs running any of the spring championships?


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