# 6th Street Dam removal updates?



## speydude26

Just curious if anyone had any new information regarding 6th street being removed. I know some fellow anglers are _not_ thrilled at it being removed, but I for one can't wait. I saw what happened when they tore the eyesore Lyons dam out, fishing upstream improved drastically. Especially seeing what is "planned" for the removal of 6th street, should be a veritable playground for river anglers. 

Last I heard in addition to funding issues, some snuffbox mussels were found downstream of the dam and were another roadblock to them starting the removal process...sometime in 2019 I heard.

Any help would be great! Tight lines folks.


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## slowpaya

:Welcome:welcome to Michigan sportsman spey dude welcome:Welcome::woohoo1:


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## BMARKS

i have no updates but have been trying to follow this. i will say that when i looked at the plans they have for how they want it to look. man that would be awesome for anglers. not only would it stop the blatant snagging that happens there. but it would make many more runs and holes to be fished. and disperse anglers a little. not to mention what it will do for the upper river tributaries.


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## Sparky23

Lol. And where is it that you fish that there isnt a few bad apples. There are more fish caught legit not lined at 6th st day in amd out than anywjere in the state. Nobody knows what will happen if or when they pull ot. Ill say this though it will not hold fish. It will be shallow. Behind there rocks will be sand and the fish will just fly upstream. So to all those that enjoy no crowds upstream. Get ready lol. The smell in the summer will be extreme. It isnt like they just said one day. Hey lets throw up a series of dams right here. There were water level issues. Both low and hi. Id bet by both your posts you want more fly only water as well.


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> Lol. And where is it that you fish that there isnt a few bad apples. There are more fish caught legit not lined at 6th st day in amd out than anywjere in the state. Nobody knows what will happen if or when they pull ot. Ill say this though it will not hold fish. It will be shallow. Behind there rocks will be sand and the fish will just fly upstream. So to all those that enjoy no crowds upstream. Get ready lol. The smell in the summer will be extreme. It isnt like they just said one day. Hey lets throw up a series of dams right here. There were water level issues. Both low and hi. Id bet by both your posts you want more fly only water as well.


Are you talking to me with this? and if so i think you are way off base. i dont know how it will end up, i just said when i look at the plans of how they want it to look. the plans i saw were more of a series of rock dams and pools below with some rapids. if that is what they make happen i sure as heck think that it will disperse anglers and make it harder for unsporting fisherman. and having deeper pools below riffles would hold fish... i could care less about the upstream fishing or crowds. and i personally do not think that any water should be flies only. so i dont know where you came up with that... out of curiosity.. why did you say that about flies only? what did it have to do with anything?... it sounds to me like you own a boat and fish the grand and are bummed that you wont be able to get up there anymore. and i feel for you that would suck. but to start throwing things out like you know what will happen i think is a little crazy.


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## BMARKS

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2018/03/grand_river_restoration_advoca.html
this is what i saw as far as the plans for what they want it to look like. you dont think that all of those separate pools and runs would make for awesome fishing. instead of standing below a dam with 100 other guys. i mean again i dont know if it will end up being what they say. but like i said the first time. if it ends up like this i think it will be a good thing for fisherman.


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## Riverdude

Been fishing there 25 yrs. and never seen blatant snagging. Any dam area where fish are concentrated foul hooling does occur, but I don't think it's a major problem.
What bothers me most about the dam removal is this;
The dam slows down the migration and concentrates the fish, making them much easier to catch. Am i being selfish here? You betcha. But.
How many places in the entire U.S can you name that have world class fishing in a downtown, inner city area.
6th street is easily accessible to inner city folks, some with no boat, no car, and very little money. I hate to see this taken from them as the fish will just blow right on thru there without the dam. I just don't want to see this changed and think it is unfair.


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## Riverdude

Bmarks, I am not buying the structure in the river thing. The fish will have no reason to stop in town and just disappear into the slow water tween GR and Lansing. And what will the kayakers get. A class 1 rapids that drops 10 feet in a mile. Whoopie.


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## BMARKS

If you havent seen blatant snagging at 6th street your eyes are not open. im not accusing anyone here, or saying everyone that fishes there is snagging. again weather or not the outcome is what they are saying i do not know. but it looked to me like many areas for fish to stack up rather than just one. i mean they still have to navigate the rapids and the smaller falls. fish can easily get over homestead dam on the betsie, but low and behold they stack up like crazy still. i may be wrong. just giving an opinion as to what i think. i think that if it does come out looking like they say, then the fishing will be just as good as ever. i dont give a rip about kayaking.


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## ESOX

I hope they remove the silt behind the dam before removing the dam itself, otherwise all the rocks will get buried.


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## Trout King

Might be a bit off thinking dam removal will benefit tribs upriver. There is alreadg massive pressure, but riparian owners don't always like the trash and trails through their yards. Bank erosion is getting to be a issue. Where are the folks from 6th street going next?


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## BMARKS

I


Trout King said:


> Might be a bit off thinking dam removal will benefit tribs upriver. There is alreadg massive pressure, but riparian owners don't always like the trash and trails through their yards. Bank erosion is getting to be a issue. Where are the folks from 6th street going next?


I guess I was only referring to number of fish. Land owners should have their property properly marked. Trespassing is always an issue on any trout steam. But my hope would be that if it goes as the pictures imply, because that is my only point off reference, I would think the guys from sixth street will fish relatively close to where they always have. Just not all together right below the Damn. Not trying to start anything or claiming to be an expert. I simply said if it ends up like the plans say. I think it would be better.


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## Riverdude

Where they gonna stack up when the dams gone? The next dam 40 miles upstream. A few rocks in the river won't stop the fish. Your kidding right? I don't give a rip about kayakers either, but somehow all 10 of them lobbied to get the dam removed and they won. Hows that happen?


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## BMARKS

If you look at the link i posted with the pics it shows a series of rapids with pools below. They woulda stack up in the pools below the rapids to rest before they push up. I mean none of them look easier to pass than the current ladder.


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## Riverdude

Pics? Any one believe thers gonna be rapids? Are there rapids on the Mo? How bout the big Manna? I can draw lots of rapids on paper.


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## BMARKS

I think it happened because the Damn was unsafe and needed to be repaired and they were the only group with money and a plan.


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## itchn2fish

speydude26 said:


> Just curious if anyone had any new information regarding 6th street being removed. I know some fellow anglers are _not_ thrilled at it being removed, but I for one can't wait. I saw what happened when they tore the eyesore Lyons dam out, fishing upstream improved drastically. Especially seeing what is "planned" for the removal of 6th street, should be a veritable playground for river anglers.


Yes, there are many fellow-anglers that are NOT @ all thrilled with it's removal. But I, for one, am 100% for it's removal. I am certain that we are in the minority on this site, though.
Truth be told, there isn't a single dam in the entire world that would last for very long (in geological terms) without man's maintenance. Rivers want to meander & move around & "live".


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## BMARKS

Riverdude said:


> Pics? Any one believe thers gonna be rapids? Are there rapids on the Mo? How bout the big Manna? I can draw lots of rapids on paper.


Hey man. I don't know where the shade is coming from here, I'm not trying to argue with you or something. It's obvious you are against this. But it's happening.... Sorry I have a hopefully outlook. But none of what I said here is an attack on you or anyone. I just stayed my opinion based on the knowledge available.


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## BMARKS

And there were rapids on the mo and big man..... Before the dams were built.


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## Riverdude

All is cool man, I just think the kayaker lobby spread a bunch of bs as to what the river will be like after removal.


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## BMARKS

I


Riverdude said:


> All is cool man, I just think the kayaker lobby spread a bunch of bs as to what the river will be like after removal.


I am sure there has been some. Hopefully it is best for both worlds I guess. But if it does come out like those drawings. Man that would be killer I think. Imagine 100,000 steelhead moving through there, Haha. That's all I was really saying from the start.


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## 357Maximum

I hope I live long enough to see that dam GONE. I would like to see all of em gone, but that's just me, and that will never happen. Rivers were not meant to be artificially kept at semi flood stage, doing so only causes problems. Unintended consequences are many when they are kept artificially flooded. If it turns out like the artist renderings I will visit more than I do now, fishing riffle/hole/runs and structure is much more fun than a concrete sided snagging pool anyday IMHO. 

I fish the dam maybe three to four times a year, if you are not seeing fish get snagged you are sleeping or being intentionally ignorant. I was there once last fall during the coho run, at least half the fish were foul hooked. Letting a long leader swirl around in the plunge pool has very predictable results. 

Lowhead dams with plunge pools also have other predictable results if one gets too close to said plunge pool.

http://www.wzzm13.com/article/sport...ets-caught-in-the-6th-street-dam/69-532868645


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## 357Maximum

BMARKS said:


> I
> 
> I am sure there has been some. Hopefully it is best for both worlds I guess. But if it does come out like those drawings. Man that would be killer I think. Imagine 100,000 steelhead moving through there, Haha. That's all I was really saying from the start.



Not to mention all the other species that will be able to reach their historical spawning grounds again. Sturgeon, burbot, and walleye actually being able to reach the good gravel and traditional spawning areas again should prove to be nothing short of awesome.


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## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> Might be a bit off thinking dam removal will benefit tribs upriver. There is alreadg massive pressure, but riparian owners don't always like the trash and trails through their yards. Bank erosion is getting to be a issue. Where are the folks from 6th street going next?



They will learn how to actually fish and then fish the riffles/holes/runs/structure just like it is done on the rest of the river, go upriver to the next concrete blockage or quit cause it is no longer stupid easy. I am sure the other dams way up will get more pressure by those looking for easy, but that will be what it will be. You and I both know one does not have to fish the face of a concrete lined snagging pool to catch silver fishees. Personally I am looking forward to the less "athletic" fish being able to reach their old spawning grounds...just as it should be. There is a reason MaNature is trying to remove that dam after all. Hell if it only increases the sucker in the river up farther I will be stoked. Them suckers serve a huge purpose and filling the river full of their offspring for a bit will benefit both the river and the lake.


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## slowpaya

I'm all for it ,and the fish WILL hold in any good water,rocks,slots, fast water, holes etc,they hold in any good water in the grand,like any river.remove it...they will come!


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## jastharp




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## BMARKS

https://www.facebook.com/king9/posts/10213900907894914 to add to this thread. Girlfriend showed this to me when I got home. Dangerous.


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## 357Maximum

BMARKS said:


> https://www.facebook.com/king9/posts/10213900907894914 to add to this thread. Girlfriend showed this to me when I got home. Dangerous.



Lowhead dams are called killing machines for a damned good reason. The fact that three guys went in and three guys came out alive is nothing short of a miracle.


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## BMARKS

I had not seen that video.... Hopefully it turns out that way.


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## Trout King

I wish there were a couple more damn in the Grand Water shed they would tear out before 6th street, but that is just me thinking about the unimaginable numbers of wild fish that would be able to successfully spawn. I have mixed emotions on 6th street, but the part of me that wants it to stay are a bit selfish as I enjoy not seeing anyone on certain parts of the river, and I don't think a small lobby should determine it's fate as there is no way in hell kayakers are going to generate the revenue of a world class urban fishery.


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## mbirdsley

Any dam being removed is s good thing. Helps get native fish back to their native areas. The removal of the chesaning and shiatown dams on the shiawassee has been a very good thing for the overal health of the river and animals that inhibit it. I always hear well they ruined the fishing here. That maybe at that very spot where the dam was. Get in the river and move up or down stream. In both instances of the dam being gone the fishing has improved if you put the effort in. They just are not stacked at the bottom of the dam any more.


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## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> I wish there were a couple more damn in the Grand Water shed they would tear out before 6th street, but that is just me thinking about the unimaginable numbers of wild fish that would be able to successfully spawn. I have mixed emotions on 6th street, but the part of me that wants it to stay are a bit selfish as I enjoy not seeing anyone on certain parts of the river, and I don't think a small lobby should determine it's fate as there is no way in hell kayakers are going to generate the revenue of a world class urban fishery.



I pretty much knew that when they started work on the bridges downstream of the concrete snagging hole the dams days were limited. All it will do is spread the fisherman out a bit and force them to learn how to actually fish. They should probably start building a better parking arrangement at Webber though, that place is gonna get BUSY from those that simply must fish next to concrete to feel confident, and Webber ain't going anywhere in any of our lifetimes.


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## BMARKS

Trout King said:


> I wish there were a couple more damn in the Grand Water shed they would tear out before 6th street, but that is just me thinking about the unimaginable numbers of wild fish that would be able to successfully spawn. I have mixed emotions on 6th street, but the part of me that wants it to stay are a bit selfish as I enjoy not seeing anyone on certain parts of the river, and I don't think a small lobby should determine it's fate as there is no way in hell kayakers are going to generate the revenue of a world class urban fishery.


I know what you mean about other dams too. I often think about how crazy the big man would be with no dams. Or the ausable. I like to think that the kayak group and their money kind of just kick started the idea. The Damn was old, dangerous, and pointless I think. Hopefully it can make a better resource. Or at least one as good as it was. But it is indeed happening. Maybe we as a group should get involved and raise money and awareness for our concerns and have more say and sway in what really happens down there. I for one would support a cause like this as much as I could.


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## Trout King

357Maximum said:


> I pretty much knew that when they started work on the bridges downstream of the concrete snagging hole the dams days were limited. All it will do is spread the fisherman out a bit and force them to learn how to actually fish. They should probably start building a better parking arrangement at Webber though, that place is gonna get BUSY from those that simply must fish next to concrete to feel confident, and Webber ain't going anywhere in any of our lifetimes.


Well, I can always start a bait and tackle shop right here at home and be a stay at home dad and probably make a decent living, lol. Heck, a good tackle shop between lansing and GR would be nice either way.


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## mbirdsley

BMARKS said:


> I know what you mean about other dams too. I often think about how crazy the big man would be with no dams. Or the ausable. I like to think that the kayak group and their money kind of just kick started the idea. The Damn was old, dangerous, and pointless I think. Hopefully it can make a better resource. Or at least one as good as it was. But it is indeed happening. Maybe we as a group should get involved and raise money and awareness for our concerns and have more say and sway in what really happens down there. I for one would support a cause like this as much as I could.


This is usually how things get done. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. As sports men we no doubt pump more money into the economy but, we tend not to be as vocal. As opposed to the soccer moms and other urbanites. Most people who get behind this on that level are usually professionals who know how to get a grant written to further their cause or get their congressmen riled up. Not ( really over generalizing) salty, smelly fishermen who are upset that their feesh arnt trapped downstream at a dam.


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## Sparky23

The "rapids" will be just that. A shallow riffle the area below the 2nd coffer now has very few holes or runs although there is a few. Most of those will disapear as thw river will shrink quite substantially. If you think there mammade structure will with stamd spring flooding well good luck. It will do what it wants in the end i think. Fish will not slow down much at all. Rapids are not condusive to holding fish. More pressure will get put on the tribs and the mo. I dont care all that much about the fishing but it is just another example of a small elitest group getting there way. The dams were put in for a reason amd like it or not man created them to help not for the hell of it but to control water levels low amd high. The coffers were not meant for power as other dams. Water level control.


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> The "rapids" will be just that. A shallow riffle the area below the 2nd coffer now has very few holes or runs although there is a few. Most of those will disapear as thw river will shrink quite substantially. If you think there mammade structure will with stamd spring flooding well good luck. It will do what it wants in the end i think. Fish will not slow down much at all. Rapids are not condusive to holding fish. More pressure will get put on the tribs and the mo. I dont care all that much about the fishing but it is just another example of a small elitest group getting there way. The dams were put in for a reason amd like it or not man created them to help not for the hell of it but to control water levels low amd high. The coffers were not meant for power as other dams. Water level control.


that is a lot of speculation and a very pessimistic. i hope these things don't happen. and do you really think they are going to make almost a mile of straight rapids. with no runs or pools or anything? just a pile of boulders? i think you are being overly dreary about this because you don't agree. the man made structures that are there do fine every spring when the river blows out... why would these ones not last. 6th street was made to help with floating logs, the smaller lower coffers were there to hold water there for aesthetic reasons later.... if you feel so strongly against it why weren't you raising money and awareness three years ago when this was first being discussed. as stated earlier in this thread the dam was crumbling and needed something done. the kayakers had money and people behind them. fisherman were lazy or unconcerned or whatever but its not like they were told to f off.


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## Sparky23

BMARKS said:


> that is a lot of speculation and a very pessimistic. i hope these things don't happen. and do you really think they are going to make almost a mile of straight rapids. with no runs or pools or anything? just a pile of boulders? i think you are being overly dreary about this because you don't agree. the man made structures that are there do fine every spring when the river blows out... why would these ones not last. 6th street was made to help with floating logs, the smaller lower coffers were there to hold water there for aesthetic reasons later.... if you feel so strongly against it why weren't you raising money and awareness three years ago when this was first being discussed. as stated earlier in this thread the dam was crumbling and needed something done. the kayakers had money and people behind them. fisherman were lazy or unconcerned or whatever but its not like they were told to f off.


Really . we were lazy. More people came out against it than for at the meetings. Amd it isnt speculation. It is what happens when a dam is removed. The width will shrink. How deep do you think the avg depth is through most of the year now dpwn there since your an expert on it? Im there weather its downtown. Downstream or upstream multiple times a week. So enlightene me since you just believe what you read online in am animated picture amd dont go by common sense


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> Really . we were lazy. More people came out against it than for at the meetings. Amd it isnt speculation. It is what happens when a dam is removed. The width will shrink. How deep do you think the avg depth is through most of the year now dpwn there since your an expert on it? Im there weather its downtown. Downstream or upstream multiple times a week. So enlightene me since you just believe what you read online in am animated picture amd dont go by common sense


you are the one making statement like you are an expert and have extensive knowledge of the hydology of the river. I never claimed to be an expert, in fact this entire thread i have said i am no expert and dont know what will happen, only that it is happening regardless of what you want or think. you keep making generalized statements, like i bet you want more flies only too, for no reason. me hoping it will be what they show and hoping for the best results is only being positive about the situation at hand. i did not know about turnouts of the meetings. but i have seen no place to donate or to join the cause. weather it is right or wrong, money is what makes the difference. and apperently the yakers had more. and common sense tells me that the removal of the dam will make the water quality better, and colder. and common sense also tells me that there is no way they can possibly make the river drop 10 ft in less than one mile and not have any pools or runs, it is impossible. besides its not like its ideal fishing right now anyways, i mean its a large concrete slab stacked with men standing shoulder to shoulder, that is not good fishing, there may be a lot of fish there but that doesnt make it good fishing.


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## Sparky23

It already jas no runs or pools lol. Down stream through the rapids. Thats what im sayin. And yes i went to school for fisheries. So i have fairly good knowledge and experiance on rivers. The fly comment is becaise its a special interest group that is getting there way with money.


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> It already jas no runs or pools lol. Down stream through the rapids. Thats what im sayin. And yes i went to school for fisheries. So i have fairly good knowledge and experiance on rivers. The fly comment is becaise its a special interest group that is getting there way with money.


I guess what i was saying is that hopefully they fulfill their displayed plans and create holes and runs with rock pile dams. maybe it wont tho you could be right. i hope you are not right tho, thats all i am really saying. and maybe us fisherman should be less focused on divisive fishing politics and group together as anglers. i am not a fan of trout unlimited and their motives but i bet their lobbying power and money definitely would have helped this be focused more toward fisherman than kayakers.


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## Sparky23

Possible. But they dont care about rivers unless there good trout waters. I do hope im wrong. When a 20k flood water hits there man made structure wont last i dont believe amd fish dont naturally want to hold in rapids to begin.


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> Possible. But they dont care about rivers unless there good trout waters. I do hope im wrong. When a 20k flood water hits there man made structure wont last i dont believe amd fish dont naturally want to hold in rapids to begin.


No i agree if it does just wash out it will not be good for the fishing. lets hope for the best!


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## itchn2fish

Trout King said:


> Well, I can always start a bait and tackle shop right here at home and be a stay at home dad and probably make a decent living, lol. Heck, a good tackle shop between lansing and GR would be nice either way.


I always wanted to own my own bait & tackle shop. I'd like to hang a sign that reads,......... "*Beer, Wine, AMMO*".


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## Bowfin1

Taking the dam out is going to ruin the salmon and steelhead fishing on the Grand. The fish will no longer have a reason to hold there. They will run up to the next dam. RIP one of the best steelhead fisheries in Michigan. Positive thinking and hoping will not change this. There are plenty of places to kayak in the Grand Rapids area. This is what is really sad.


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## Trout King

Bowfin1 said:


> Taking the dam out is going to ruin the salmon and steelhead fishing on the Grand. The fish will no longer have a reason to hold there. They will run up to the next dam. RIP one of the best steelhead fisheries in Michigan. Positive thinking and hoping will not change this. There are plenty of places to kayak in the Grand Rapids area. This is what is really sad.


Guys some will have to learn to actually steelhead fish. 6th street is training wheels


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## riverbob

I've spent at least 50 years of my life fishing below 6th. st. I remember swimming in the west side canal, i remember sliding/jump,dive off the dam, i heard or was told 6th. st was the 5th most popular/productive spot in the lower 48, when the dam goes, i will miss her (n she will go ) it's going to put the fish up stream sooner/ n greater numbers (n new fishing hole will b found) I just hope that the builders of the rapids have a good plan, i'm not to sure about the plan for a lamprey stopper it seems like a bad place for it. sound like a great spot to start a ice jam, n talk about ice jams, just remember if 6th. st. dam does nothing, it still breaks up the ice before it reaches down town.....on a side note i think the steely run is winding down, caught drop backs today


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## riverbob

Trout King said:


> Guys some will have to learn to actually steelhead fish. 6th street is training wheels


 we called it the hatchery


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## jastharp

Bowfin1 said:


> Taking the dam out is going to ruin the salmon and steelhead fishing on the Grand. The fish will no longer have a reason to hold there. They will run up to the next dam. RIP one of the best steelhead fisheries in Michigan. Positive thinking and hoping will not change this. There are plenty of places to kayak in the Grand Rapids area. This is what is really sad.


There is no way dams make good fishing. Grand Rapids will always have the gradient to hold fish.


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## riverbob

jastharp said:


> There is no way dams make good fishing. Grand Rapids will always have the gradient to hold fish.


 u got that,,make room on Fulton st. bridge for this old fart. (that will become a better spot)


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## Sparky23

Better...or the last good spot before they get to the...rapids. It will also be busier. It may be an easy place to fish butbthat does t change the fact that ot is fun. Id love to know how bons ive had drop there. The fact that it was pushed through by a few is what is disturbing about it.


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## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> Guys some will have to learn to actually steelhead fish. 6th street is training wheels



with duels for both tires on both sides.


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## mbirdsley

Have There ever been problems with vegans, peta, or other groups down there? Just seeing how it is in the middle of GR and apparently one of the hippest cities in America.


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## Trout King

I think the paddle group is blowing smoke about the economic impacts. I don't see it being a big draw for a sustained period of time.

I am a bit torn on the issue since 6th st has given me many good times and cut my learning curve, but on the other hand free flowing rivers and the possibility of bigger walleye runs and other native species is intriguing.


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## Riverdude

The Grand River, Mich. largest, is 252 miles long.
The elevation of Jackson, MI is 932 above sea level.
The elevation of Grand Haven,MI is 662 above sea level.
The total drop of the Grand is 270 ft. over 252 miles.
Now, can we over the idea that there will be any rapids.
1 foot per mile.
I camped on the Deschutes River in Oregon.
It is 173 mi.long
It drops 3400 feet over that length.
20 feet per mile.
It is pretty fast. But.
Never saw anything I would consider rapids.
Now, lets all go fishing.


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## jastharp

Riverdude said:


> The Grand River, Mich. largest, is 252 miles long.
> The elevation of Jackson, MI is 932 above sea level.
> The elevation of Grand Haven,MI is 662 above sea level.
> The total drop of the Grand is 270 ft. over 252 miles.
> Now, can we over the idea that there will be any rapids.
> 1 foot per mile.
> I camped on the Deschutes River in Oregon.
> It is 173 mi.long
> It drops 3400 feet over that length.
> 20 feet per mile.
> It is pretty fast. But.
> Never saw anything I would consider rapids.
> Now, lets all go fishing.


The Deschutes River has a whitewater park in Bend Oregon.


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## Waif

mbirdsley said:


> Have There ever been problems with vegans, peta, or other groups down there? Just seeing how it is in the middle of GR and apparently one of the hippest cities in America.


Was pretty conservative working class when I fished it decades ago.
The city would attract more tech based youth. 
Downtown is a bit more vibrant ,but owes much of that to certain folks. Folks not known for being strong vegan,peta,other.
Who knows ,but nothing too outlandish from any hipsters comes to mind recently politically.


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## jastharp

https://www.enr.com/articles/41056-...olorado-dam-safe-passage-bend-whitewater-park


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## Riverdude

" The whitewater features are adjusted by remote controlled gates in the riverbed".
Man made.


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## jastharp

Riverdude said:


> " The whitewater features are adjusted by remote controlled gates in the riverbed".
> Man made.


But it replaced a man made dam that was preventing fish passage, creating a safety hazard, and getting old. This park is just part of improving the fishing on the Deschutes. They have several dams that are causing issues for fishing habitat.
http://www.ktvz.com/news/fish-passage-in-place-at-bends-north-unit-dam/533113834


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## scooter_trasher

somewhere near Lansing , putting a smackdown on Grand Rapids combat fishing Steelhead


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## Oldgrandman

Didn't read the whole thing, but here are what I am sure are the talking points and my position.
Wish they'd have let it be... Local populations of fish and humans are adept to current conditions.

While fish holding might improve in some areas, is only because it has diminished somewhere else. The Grand downtown is currently a MECCA of walleye, trout, and salmon fishing if you know your way around. Even bass & pan-fish. So why the kayak park?

Snagging happens in the deep woods of Michigan wherever there are big numbers of fish like walleye, trout, or salmon. So that won't change one bit. Should we make every river people snag fish from a kayak park?

This is being done to make a kayak park. Sure fishing will be available and it still might be good, but it will need to be relearned though, just so some craft beer drinking & kayak floating yuppies can thrill themselves differently. 

Probably will be more dangerous for them now though. And we might start seeing more of them as casualties. Natural selection rules. Perhaps even an increased number of fishermen drowning. All for a kayak park......I hope that isn't the case.

Finally the evil dam theory never resonated with me. What a dam prevents for some native species, it also enhances for other native species. Not to mention if you wanted electricity 100 years ago you had no other option readily available.

Life goes on...... Improvise, adapt, & overcome!


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## rodbender97

When this dam is removed the smell from all the sediment that will end up in town will be enough to gag a maggot I bet all the yuppie kayakers will go find a different stretch of river to float down


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## 357Maximum

rodbender97 said:


> When this dam is removed the smell from all the sediment that will end up in town will be enough to gag a maggot I bet all the yuppie kayakers will go find a different stretch of river to float down



I have witnessed several dam removals. One or two good flood events will fix any and all settlement issues. The Grand is a mighty mighty beast, it will be ok, have faith.


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## PunyTrout

Break the dam! Release the _rivaaah!_


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## 357Maximum

PunyTrout said:


> Break the dam! Release the _rivaaah!_


I think that is the way it should be done. Screw that doing it all slow and easy in the late summer. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM in a few spots during pre flood stage and let MaNature do what she does best.....clean up our mess.


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## oworm

Sparky23 said:


> The dams were put in for a reason .


 Yep. For floating logs which doesn't happen any more.


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## Magik

Was just out on the trail bridge (blue) that crosses the grand in Wyoming, connects to Indian Trails...the south side of the bridge is stopped by a huge rats nest of logs and garbage. While I love the Grand river, it’s a sizeable garbage dump for so many people (fisherman included) and that’s sad to see.


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## Benz

Agreed, ran it today and there was tons of trash around. More than a few homeless camps completely underwater and their trash just floating down the river. The homeless population in GR has gone through the roof lately. Looking forward to some colder weather for sure.


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## Sparky23

oworm said:


> Yep. For floating logs which doesn't happen any more.


Not true actually


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## oworm

I read that in another thread on this site. There was a link and a photo of log jams above the Dam. Can't find the thread now but its here somewhere


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## Sparky23

Unfortunately more trash in there than most rivers. Even the zoo. The bum camps have gotten ridiculously out of hamd over the past few years. There has been a few that had 10 12 tents and all trash wash away by floods. Some have been in the same place for years nothing ever done.


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## Benz

New thread: 6th Street Bum Removal Updates

I'm going to start reporting all of them via the 311 app when I run the river.


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## riverbob

Sparky23 said:


> Unfortunately more trash in there than most rivers. Even the zoo. The bum camps have gotten ridiculously out of hamd over the past few years. There has been a few that had 10 12 tents and all trash wash away by floods. Some have been in the same place for years nothing ever done.


 there have alway been people living on the river, back in the early 50's when i started going to 6th st. their was a bunch of them living under a building ( where the post office is today) so there will always b home less living some where on the river, hell i even got a couple tenter living where i hunt. ..but i believe there r a lot more now days, n they seen to leave more trash


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## oworm

Sparky23 said:


> Not true actually


1:15 IN


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## Sparky23

Well a video made by the people trying to take out the dam lol. As i said logging wasnt the only reason and if you read about the history it was just as much for low water in summer amd controlling smell as it was logging. Anyone who believes that the migratory fish arent just going to pass through gr is mistaken imo. Jay's only concern as well as most of officials in the midnr is sturgeon lately as has been seen by the millions apon millions spent on a few with 0 ecnomic value....0. The lamprey wier at ann is going to be 16 to 18in. Drop which is a joke as it will slow nothing down as well as lampreys that already make it through regular fish ladder. The lamprey trap was in the 3rd tier of the ladder this spring which is above 3 16in drops....obviously stops them if thats where they are trapping them. I could really care less about fishing down there anymore. And i know there will be a few areas that may hold a hamful of fish, but they will not stay long before they head to the next dam. the fact is its another small interest that is pushing something through. Everyone whines about making it natural then the next plan os to dredge from charlies crab...fulton st all the wat to spring lale to make it passable for big boats. Thats historicly correct to and should work well with all of the new kayak traffic.


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## oworm

Sparky23 said:


> Not true actually





Sparky23 said:


> As i said logging wasnt the only reason and if you read about the history it was just as much for low water in summer amd controlling smell as it was logging.


 I don't remember you saying anything about logging except that my earlier assertion was untrue.


> Anyone who believes that the migratory fish arent just going to pass through gr is mistaken .


 Salmonids will always hold up in lies for minutes, hours, days or even weeks. It's almost certain that a fair number of fish never even head to the Dam but spawn downstream right in town.


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## Magik

Sparky23 said:


> Well a video made by the people trying to take out the dam lol. As i said logging wasnt the only reason and if you read about the history it was just as much for low water in summer amd controlling smell as it was logging. Anyone who believes that the migratory fish arent just going to pass through gr is mistaken imo. Jay's only concern as well as most of officials in the midnr is sturgeon lately as has been seen by the millions apon millions spent on a few with 0 ecnomic value....0. The lamprey wier at ann is going to be 16 to 18in. Drop which is a joke as it will slow nothing down as well as lampreys that already make it through regular fish ladder. The lamprey trap was in the 3rd tier of the ladder this spring which is above 3 16in drops....obviously stops them if thats where they are trapping them. I could really care less about fishing down there anymore. And i know there will be a few areas that may hold a hamful of fish, but they will not stay long before they head to the next dam. the fact is its another small interest that is pushing something through. Everyone whines about making it natural then the next plan os to dredge from charlies crab...fulton st all the wat to spring lale to make it passable for big boats. Thats historicly correct to and should work well with all of the new kayak traffic.


Can you link the plan to dredge from Charlie’s to Spring Lake? I truly don’t see any kind of budget for such a project in the near, and far, budget.


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## riverbob

Magik said:


> Can you link the plan to dredge from Charlie’s to Spring Lake? I truly don’t see any kind of budget for such a project in the near, and far, budget.


 that was a bad plan that some shyster had, about 15 years back, now that i'm on bad plans, from what i heard, all it will take to put the kabosh to the lamprey barrier is a sharp stick


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## Sparky23

oworm said:


> I don't remember you saying anything about logging except that my earlier assertion was untrue. Salmonids will always hold up in lies for minutes, hours, days or even weeks. It's almost certain that a fair number of fish never even head to the Dam but spawn downstream right in town.[/QUOTE. Better read it again then. Again so your going to believe the video put together by the restore the rapids planners? Thats like believing the midnr doesnt have one agenda and thats natural fish...walleye and sturgeon. If thats true where do you fish when or if you fish the grand? While they may hang out near cool water most salmon run to a berrior then fall back before pushing up again when the conditions make it right. The cohos that were there this week were there 2 days in big numbers. And already gone how long you think that would have lasted with nothing. Are you just a yak guy that is tottttallly pumppped about whittte water and rapids braa? Or do you always drink any coolaid?


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## Sparky23

BMARKS said:


> lmao, classic.


What's classic is that is probably true how many steelhead did you catch this spring LOL how many salmon? Not trying to compare I'm just sick of you running your mouth every time I say an opinion about a river that I have caught lots of fish on and have enjoyed those times I don't fish it that much anymore I personally rather fish other places but when you bad mouth of river that I have had fun on for many years and know many people that fish it legit ways then it does get aggravating considering that you have no idea what's going on so stick to your rivers and your high horse put your fly rod back in your hand and just leave it alone


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> And you must fish up there all the time right? You know what goes on you know a bunch of people that fish up there with their pens or with Bobbers and skein everyday? Did you live 5 minutes from there for 6 years and no The Good Apples and the bad apples? There is more blatant ripping with snagging troubles waited troubles and any other meaning of snagging that goes on on Northern Rivers everyday then there is at 6th Street an entire year. Guys mayline fish 6th Street some guys may snag fish but you do not see people blatantly snagging with weighted troubles or bare treble hooks because they would get run off by the people that do do it right it's not a Serene environment would you need to know going in if you're going to fish it.. the migratory fish let people fish for down there will become almost non-existent and Grand Rapids will lose money the river will lose water depth the river will stink when exposed to gravel and sand dries out. And there will be the same amount of people kayaking it that there is now which is not very many and all it's going to help improve is everyone's favorite fish the sturgeon that is a huge economic draw right? Or do you think that that's going to let more fish pass Upstream as they can do already to the pristine spawning grounds of the Grand River? It will put more pressure on the few small rivers that feed the grand that do see something natural reproduction.


and then he says...


Sparky23 said:


> you're the one that's pitching a fit


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> Dude I've caught more salmon and steelhead in a year that you've got in your lifetime


and then...


Sparky23 said:


> Not trying to compare


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## Sparky23

BMARKS said:


> and then he says...


Yeah exactly dude everytime I say anything about the Grand River you throw in your two cents about it and badmouth it and then back up and act like you didn't do anything wrong you actually do that on a lot of threads. What's the point of saying and then he says? Other than to just pitch a fit and be completely pointless on a thread that has a lot of meaning to a lot of people so if you don't care then just don't talk about it how about that don't put your opinion in if you don't even really have one if you don't have anything to say then why post


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> What's classic is that is probably true how many steelhead did you catch this spring LOL how many salmon? Not trying to compare I'm just sick of you running your mouth every time I say an opinion about a river that I have caught lots of fish on and have enjoyed those times I don't fish it that much anymore I personally rather fish other places but when you bad mouth of river that I have had fun on for many years and know many people that fish it legit ways then it does get aggravating considering that you have no idea what's going on so stick to your rivers and your high horse put your fly rod back in your hand and just leave it alone


I don't fly fish for steelhead or salmon. never ridden a horse before either. im just a poor f**k who doesn't need a damn to catch fish. honestly last spring i probably landed about 25-30 steelhead. if you count from fall i would say well into the 80s total. i dont fish for salmon much, tho i did catch one on bobber and skein late this summer. and i never bad mouthed the grand, idk where you got that.


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## riverbob

BMARKS said:


> A good fisherman wouldn't be absolutely devastated about the removal of a dam. A good fisherman would say i don't fish near damns, i get mine down/up stream. a good fisherman wouldn't be worried about "ruining a fishery" because he would know where to catch them.


 me n many like me r not against the removal of the dam( hell that puts more fish for me to catch up here)to me it's all about there plan, they need to really think this thing out better,,,,,1st thing what r they going to do about the ice,, o ya i for got they will just keep fixing the bridges down town,,,2nd they just forget about us river people, that will me flooded out, because because of back ups,,,,O ya that right i could just move,,,,NOT i plan on dieing here, not drowning here.


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## oworm

Sparky23 said:


> Well then you're obviously the blind one if you just see blatant snagging LOL. Maybe I'll run into you


Well since I'm blind its probably more like I will run into you


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## riverbob

BMARKS said:


> A good fisherman wouldn't be absolutely devastated about the removal of a dam. A good fisherman would say i don't fish near damns, i get mine down/up stream. a good fisherman wouldn't be worried about "ruining a fishery" because he would know where to catch them.


 On a side note please don't talk about me like that....thanks


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## Sparky23

BMARKS said:


> I don't fly fish for steelhead or salmon. never ridden a horse before either. im just a poor f**k who doesn't need a damn to catch fish. honestly last spring i probably landed about 25-30 steelhead. if you count from fall i would say well into the 80s total. i dont fish for salmon much, tho i did catch one on bobber and skein late this summer. and i never bad mouthed the grand, idk where you got that.


No you just say it's basically a s******* that everyone snags at that's not bad-mouthing LOL. And every opinion I have on it you're against you don't have to single something out if you have something useful to add then add it if you just want to talk crap then don't it's that simple. I'm curious to know what rivers you fish in Michigan? Do you fish the Muskegon? Do you fish the Manistee?


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## Sparky23

riverbob said:


> me n many like me r not against the removal of the dam( hell that puts more fish for me to catch up here)to me it's all about there plan, they need to really think this thing out better,,,,,1st thing what r they going to do about the ice,, o ya i for got they will just keep fixing the bridges down town,,,2nd they just forget about us river people, that will me flooded out, because because of back ups,,,,O ya that right i could just move,,,,NOT i plan on dieing here, not drowning here.


Very good post sir that's the point I try to make it's not just that I need to fish there I finish many other places in the state most of the time I do just as good in other places as I do they're the point is is that there will be other consequences to the removal of that damn that a lot of people don't think about or see


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> Yeah exactly dude everytime I say anything about the Grand River you throw in your two cents about it and badmouth it and then back up and act like you didn't do anything wrong you actually do that on a lot of threads. What's the point of saying and then he says? Other than to just pitch a fit and be completely pointless on a thread that has a lot of meaning to a lot of people so if you don't care then just don't talk about it how about that don't put your opinion in if you don't even really have one if you don't have anything to say then why post


i post because i think its a good thing, and that you are overreacting. and i do care, i care about all fisheries in this state, and i think this is the best thing for this one. and my point in showing your hypocrisy, is because you attack me anytime i state an opinion, with things like "i catch more than you, my rod is longer than yours". you are stuck in the past, and its going away fast.


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## PunyTrout

Stop the nonsense and petty pissing matches please.


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## BMARKS

riverbob said:


> On a side note please don't talk about me like that....thanks


didnt talk about you, i answered your question about spark.


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## Sparky23

BMARKS said:


> i post because i think its a good thing, and that you are overreacting. and i do care, i care about all fisheries in this state, and i think this is the best thing for this one. and my point in showing your hypocrisy, is because you attack me anytime i state an opinion, with things like "i catch more than you, my rod is longer than yours". you are stuck in the past, and its going away fast.


Again what rivers do you fish the Muskegon the Manistee what ones cuz unless you fish basically One River then you fish on a river that has dams I know you're better than everyone because you don't fish near a dam in all actuality you probably do fish near many dams just because you don't fish in the quarter mile below one doesn't mean that your fishing is not influenced by a damned somewhere on that River. And what makes you think that that's going to make the river a better Fishery? Please tell me where you get that from it's going to move the fish farther faster it will get the fish Upstream to other dams quicker it will move the crowds of people to other spots quicker and it will leave the biggest area of economic impact on that River a dead Fishery. What's wrong with having a good fishery in a major Michigan City? Do you know how many people have caught their first salmon or steelhead at 6th Street Dam? I personally used to pull up to the shore and my boat look for someone that looked like they had no clue what they were doing and asked them if they wanted to go out and catch some fish one kid caught his first nine steelhead in about an hour and a half out of my boat up there and has now become quite the fisherman and I think things like that are pretty cool when you can get someone hooked on a fishery it doesn't mean that people have to fish there just because I fish there doesn't mean it's the only place I fish. I fished rivers that hadn't seen anyone on them and weeks I flew into rivers in Alaska and fish them without seeing another person for days does that make me a bad fisherman because nobody was there so there was no competition to catch the fish?


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## BMARKS

Sparky23 said:


> Again what rivers do you fish the Muskegon the Manistee what ones cuz unless you fish basically One River then you fish on a river that has dams I know you're better than everyone because you don't fish near a dam in all actuality you probably do fish near many dams just because you don't fish in the quarter mile below one doesn't mean that your fishing is not influenced by a damned somewhere on that River. And what makes you think that that's going to make the river a better Fishery? Please tell me where you get that from it's going to move the fish farther faster it will get the fish Upstream to other dams quicker it will move the crowds of people to other spots quicker and it will leave the biggest area of economic impact on that River a dead Fishery. What's wrong with having a good fishery in a major Michigan City? Do you know how many people have caught their first salmon or steelhead at 6th Street Dam? I personally used to pull up to the shore and my boat look for someone that looked like they had no clue what they were doing and asked them if they wanted to go out and catch some fish one kid caught his first nine steelhead in about an hour and a half out of my boat up there and has now become quite the fisherman and I think things like that are pretty cool when you can get someone hooked on a fishery it doesn't mean that people have to fish there just because I fish there doesn't mean it's the only place I fish. I fished rivers that hadn't seen anyone on them and weeks I flew into rivers in Alaska and fish them without seeing another person for days does that make me a bad fisherman because nobody was there so there was no competition to catch the fish?


nevermind. you are right.


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## riverbob

PunyTrout said:


> Stop the nonsense and petty pissing matches please.


 Yes boss.


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## PunyTrout

Unfortunately, this thread has reached the point of diminishing returns.


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