# In the Eyes of the Law...



## Overdraw (Jan 12, 2006)

I have an armchair attorney, that believes it is legal to hunt with a muzzel-loader, if you have a firearms restriction due to a felony conviction. Can someone please give me some ammunition to dispute his case. He believes the definition of firearm is somehow tied to the cartridge itself. 

Is a muzzel-loader considered a firearm in the eyes of the law? 

And if it is, why are the laws different with regards to the sale of the two types of guns?


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## WalleyeHunter811 (Feb 26, 2007)

I am not the law but i am pretty sure that a firearm even indculeds bb guns.


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## eddiejohn4 (Dec 23, 2005)

A muzzle loader is indeed a firearm, how could he even think it was not?


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

Alright...here's the deal...most public acts, laws, etc have a definitions list that defines key terms within the act. So, depending on which law your dealing with, the definition for a given item (firearm) may vary.

For the purpose of purchasing, a muzzleloader is not a firearm (no background check required- out the door, as easy as buying a loaf of bread).

However, when it comes to the law(s) governing a convicted felon, the term firearm has a totally different definition. The definition of firearm might include muzzleloaders when it comes to governing felons (I don't know what this particular law actually says with regards to a muzzleloader).

The point is, you can't uniformly apply a single definition of the word firearm to all laws.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

A muzzleloader is indeed a firearm for a felony or domestic violance conviction. If he doesn't believe it let him let the local CO know were he is hunting with that muzzleloader and he will learn the hard way.


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## JWICKLUND (Feb 13, 2005)

I just had the same question posed to me by a local hunter who has a felony conviction. He petitioned MSP, the Sheriff Department and the local courts to recind his felony charge. He also argued that a muzzleloader was not a firearm.

Long story short, this made it to the Michigan attorney general who stated that a muzzleloader is a firearm.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Under Michigan law regarding weapons and contraband, a muzzleloader is considered a firearm, which is defined as:

_a weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by an explosive, or by gas or air. Firearm does not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling by a spring, or by gas or air, BB's not exceeding .177 caliber._

And don't quote me on the MZ's but I think it has something to do with it not having a receiver like a rifle.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

M1 how about it has something to do with the fact it uses blackpowder which is considered an explosive.


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## Overdraw (Jan 12, 2006)

Sounds like a CO would arrest him with a pellet gun in his possesion. Thanks guys for the info. --Overdraw


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

bigcountrysg said:


> M1 how about it has something to do with the fact it uses blackpowder which is considered an explosive.


You may be right. I do know that you can buy every part for a rifle (and have it mailed to you) without an FFL _except_ the receiver so I thought that may be the reason, or part of it. I'd like to know for sure though.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Overdraw said:


> Sounds like a CO would arrest him with a pellet gun in his possesion. Thanks guys for the info. --Overdraw


He could if it was a .22 caliber air rifle. He'd have to have a .177 caliber.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

he sounds more like a JAIL HOUSE ATTORNEY. by the way most felons aren't that BRIGHT either, thats why they get busted.
the only way a felon can hunt that i know of is, that at his sentenceing the judge sets aside his rights to hunt. and this must be in the written deposition of that judge ruling on the case. although there may be other LEGAL ways (other than petitioning the court) but i am unaware of them.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Under State Law, depending on the charge a felon can can possess a firearm after a term of 3 or 5 years passes and all terms of the penalties were met such as confinement, fines, probation, parole, etc. BUT the kicker is that under Federal Law, they can never get them back and in this case, Federal Law supercedes state law and to get them back, they have to petition for them. I do not believe a Judge can rule different, I believe they would still have to petition the Feds.


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## huntingfool43 (Mar 16, 2002)

I know of 2 different convicted felons that were told by their PO that they could hunt with a ML but not a shot gun. I know one of them had drug charges that he pled guilty and is still on probation and his PO told him he could use a ML but according to whats been posted they can not.


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## kaler9969 (Feb 25, 2005)

eddiejohn4 said:


> A muzzle loader is indeed a firearm, how could he even think it was not?


Federal law excludes muzzleloading guns and cartridge firearms produced before 1899. Michigan laws are some what more strict.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

those 2 people that you spoke of better have that advice on PAPER and SIGNED! if it was not ordered by the court to be so, someone may be doing some HARD TIME when a LEO pops them with a search! although it maybe so, i sure wouldn't take the advice of the PO in this matter. i think i would ask the court where the case was held and check the COURT RECORDS, doing TIME because he said,she said, just doesn't get it. ENTRAPMENT would be a very hard case to prove in the eyes of the COURT by a convicted FELON!
just my 2 cents


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## Overdraw (Jan 12, 2006)

kaler9969 said:


> Federal law excludes muzzleloading guns and cartridge firearms produced before 1899. Michigan laws are some what more strict.


That's exactly what he must have looked up, the Federal Law. Muzzelloading guns, firearms produced before 1899, and guns that were not purchased by way of interstate commerce were not considered firearms. Surely the State will classify a firearm in this circumstance as any gun that propels a dangerous projectile by explosives, spring, or air...


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## Byron (Dec 8, 2000)

M1Garand said:


> He could if it was a .22 caliber air rifle. He'd have to have a .177 caliber.


That's not what the law says above. Any pellet gun would have a rifled barrel, and would therefore fall outside the exclusion listed, regardless of caliber.

Best Regards,
Byron


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

huntingfool43 said:


> I know of 2 different convicted felons that were told by their PO that they could hunt with a ML but not a shot gun. I know one of them had drug charges that he pled guilty and is still on probation and his PO told him he could use a ML but according to whats been posted they can not.


You forgot the part about one of them also poaching deer, manufacture of a controlled substance and possesion with intent to deliver. Then he gets to hunt the following year :rant: :sad:


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## Hi Ho Silver_Joe (Aug 4, 2003)

This is my personal experience. Interpret it as you want. 
I bought a scratched up muzzle loader from a Meijer store a few years back. I was told it was the "Floor model" and it was 25% off. 

I took it out to sight it in and could not get it to fire. After spending an hour or two I looked down the barrel with a bore scope and found there was already a sabot in it. I pulled the sabot out and there was a full charge behind it. I was trying to fire the gun with 2 loads in it. We all know what would have happened if the charge would has ignited. :rant: 

Apparently the "Floor model" was a gun that was returned to the store by another customer and put back on the shelf. 

When I took it back to the store, the manager would not even give my back my money. (Floor model, all sales final) I was so pissed off that I went home and called the Bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms. 

They told me it didn't fall under there jurisdiction because a muzzle loader is not considered a firearm.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Byron said:


> That's not what the law says above. Any pellet gun would have a rifled barrel, and would therefore fall outside the exclusion listed, regardless of caliber.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Byron


My fault, you are correct, some .177 caliber pellet rifles are smoothbore (and not considered a firearm) but a rifled bore one would fall under firearm. I stand corrected


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## JWICKLUND (Feb 13, 2005)

Their are two types of felonies to consider. Non-violent and violent felonies.. Non-violent felonies may be what some of you are thinking of and can be petitioned for removal. (I don't believe violent felony convictions can be removed). Under Federal law, a person convicted of a felony is prohibited from possessing any illegal or dangerous weapon. A muzzleloader would be considered dangerous therefore not able to be used.


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## huntingfool43 (Mar 16, 2002)

FREEPOP said:


> You forgot the part about one of them also poaching deer, manufacture of a controlled substance and possesion with intent to deliver. Then he gets to hunt the following year :rant: :sad:


 John

He is the one I was refering to. His PO said he could hunt with a Muzzel Loader but not a shot gun, makes no sence to me. According to him they droped the deer poaching and got him on manu. with intent. How they figure he has a right to use a muzzel loader is beyond me.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I know Huntingfool, I just wanted to emphasise the fact that he was looking at three felonies and then gets to hunt :rant: :sad: 

Oh, and the steelhead was great. Marinated and grilled :corkysm55


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## walleyechaser (Jan 12, 2001)

"my or your definition" of dangerous or illegal weapon does not effect what Federal Laws say.
Federal Law does not in fact classify a muzzleloader or certain vintage rifles using black powder cartridges as a firearm. This also explains more clearly why a Federal Background Check is not required to purchase a muzzleloader.

However, having said that, there is nothing in Federal Law that prevents individual states from having more stringent laws and requirements than the Feds and Michigan does classify MLs as a firearm so now the question arises as to if State charges were dropped against the individual being discussed but he was found or plead guilty of Federal charges can he hunt with one in Michigan.

My take would be that he's in violation of state laws but would not be facing any federal weapons charges so you go figure. Perhaps someone in the state legal system could clarify this for us.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

JWICKLUND said:


> Their are two types of felonies to consider. Non-violent and violent felonies.. Non-violent felonies may be what some of you are thinking of and can be petitioned for removal. (I don't believe violent felony convictions can be removed). Under Federal law, a person convicted of a felony is prohibited from possessing any illegal or dangerous weapon. A muzzleloader would be considered dangerous therefore not able to be used.


Under Federal law a felony is a felony, it does not matter if it's violent or not, they'll still have to petition the Feds. They'd most likely have a much better chance of getting their rights back if it were non violent but to my understaning, it is still a difficult process. Under state law it would make a difference (whether it's 3 or 5 years after conditions are met) but it's kinda a moot point as federal law supercedes it. My take is this applies mostly to ML's.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

walleyechaser said:


> However, having said that, there is nothing in Federal Law that prevents individual states from having more stringent laws and requirements than the Feds and Michigan does classify MLs as a firearm so now the question arises as to if State charges were dropped against the individual being discussed but he was found or plead guilty of Federal charges can he hunt with one in Michigan.
> 
> My take would be that he's in violation of state laws but would not be facing any federal weapons charges so you go figure. Perhaps someone in the state legal system could clarify this for us.


Yes, he is still a convicted felon, regardless if he was convicted federally or under state law. For clarification, under this section of law, when they refer to felony, it means (direct from this section of law):

_(5) As used in this section, felony means a violation of a law of this state, or of another state, or of the United States that is punishable by imprisonment for 4 years or more, or an attempt to violate such a law._

So if this guy has not met the requirements of state law (either 3 or 5 years after conditions are met) it does not matter if the Feds don't consider it a firearm, State Law does and he can be charged if in violation.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

it really doesn't matter which juristriction he is in violation of, beit fed or state of michigan. if this individual goes out hunting with any type of weapon and is stopped by a LEO they will do a warrants and leins on his or her butt. then if it comes back they're felons, you can bet the farm that the LEO will HOOKEM-UP! then the prosecuter and judge will have the final SAY! NOT THE P.O. end of story!


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## luv2havemoartime (Mar 11, 2005)

It has to depend on law and states becuase I know a friend of a friend "with a past" who can't firearm (even muzzleload) hunt in Michgan but he does muzzleload deer hunt every year in Illinois. He has met with their CO's and he is within the law.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

i thought that this was a michigan issue we were talking about. i know nothing about any other states statutes, but i do know about MICHIGAN. however i am not an attorney or a judge but i do have friends that are, along with a few LEOS. and i also don't have any friends that are FELONS and NEVER WILL! THERE'S THAT LITTLE THING ABOUT ASSOCIATION?????? once a 95-BRAVO always a 95-BRAVO!


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I believe we have enough answers for this one.


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