# *****Muskie Spearing in Michigan******



## Will_S (Jan 8, 2002)

Please take a moment of your time to follow the link provided and show your support to ban Muskellunge spearing on all waters currently approved for stocking by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. To get this to fly well need to show that we have overwhelming support for this issue. http://www.petitiononline.com/nospear/petition.html

Thank you,

Will Schultz, President
Michigan Muskie Alliance - Muskies Inc Chapter 47


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Thank you Will for your petition. The petition is an excellent idea. I'm signed on and I've passed copies of the petition on to other networks.


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

Thanks Will,

I signed. Lets hope that we get LOTS more. I was number 12.


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## fishing addict (Mar 15, 2003)

Me too,I, was number 11.


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## Lunker (Aug 27, 2001)

I didnt know it was legal! WOW


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

Thanks for the heads up.
I was #38


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

Good luck Will!!

#72

Al


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Done. Now wheres the petition to ban Pike speariing???


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## jaid (Jul 5, 2002)

Do the pikemasters still have representation in Michigan? Im sure they would be interested in a spearing ban for pike as well as musky. Maybe it could become a joint project of sorts?


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## fishing addict (Mar 15, 2003)

I'll, sign the,Pike, one too. Now lets stop carp with a bow.They don't release well with an arrow sticking through them either.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Carp are not indigenous , and the habitat destruction they cause is unreal. I enjoy catching those freshwater bones as much as anyone, but they don't need nor should they benefit from any protection. The only reason I put them back is that my garden is only so big. (just my opinion).


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## fishing addict (Mar 15, 2003)

Just curious,what habitat destruction do carp cause?


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

They rip the heck out of weedbeds, and beat the stuffings out of reedbeds and cattails. In May and June on LSC, you can HEAR them tearing stuff up from 1/2 mile, literally.


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## fishing addict (Mar 15, 2003)

Oh those dirty devils! Yep,might as well indiscrimately kill them all.While were at it Pike eat trout and bass ,so lets do them,too. Muskie, eat them all,so they better go also. And bluegills eat worms and grubs,but lets not stop there.I, don't see any sense in killing just to kill. I, eat fish also, but release what is not going to the table. The Thornapple River had smallmouths and an occassional trout,before they tried to poison the carp and pike. It still has lots of carp and pike now. Haven't seen a smallie or a trout since.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

The keyword in my logic is indigenous. Carp do not belong in this ecosystem, and are using resourses that would be used by fish that do belong here. They grow much larger than the fish they are displacing, think about the Smallies you mentioned. Carp are a direct competitor with them, they both eat invertebrates, crustaceans and minnows. Carp even push the Smallies right off their beds and eat the eggs and fry.


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## fishing addict (Mar 15, 2003)

By the time you read this,I'll be out the door fishing.I, never claimed to be a fishing expert.I, just like to feel a good pull and here drag whiz.I, haven't made a post on this site in a week,with out getting slammed by a moderator, so maybe,I, don't belong here with the fishing elite. I'll,be the one on the river ,while you all keep your keyboards clicking,instead of your drags.


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

Take a few chill pills while your fishing too.
Oh thats not a slam either.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Slammed by another moderator??? Where? This is not intended as a slam but how you take it is your responsibility.....


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## jaid (Jul 5, 2002)

We need some more signatures! If you havent signed already, please go and sign. Its very quick, very painless, very helpful, and very much appreciated!

Thanks guys!


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## predatordave (Feb 24, 2003)

i signed and was more than happy to do it. now i just need someone to take me out so i can go muskie fishing  oh yeah i need all the rods and reels and tons of lures supplied also  
i have the boat though. 

later, dave


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## Will_S (Jan 8, 2002)

Splitshot,

Though I don't have a specific study for you to read the fact is that pike eggs have the ability to stick to weeds above the bottom and therefore are less likely to suffocate due to silt. Muskie eggs do not and therefore Muskies usually need moving water and/or the right kind of bottom make up to successfully spawn. In the very few lakes that muskies successfully spawn in Michigan they do their spawning in rivers that feed the lakes.

If you want to discuss the spearing issue and are interested in hearing the facts, feel free to drop me an email. [email protected]

Will Schultz, President
Michigan Muskie Alliance - Muskies, Inc. Chapter 47


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## RIP (Jun 4, 2002)

No way. I don't support. This thread is a perfect example that your motives are not clear. Your group is classic "I don't understand it and I don't do it, so lets ban it" 

Spearing not a sport.

That is so uneducated, So anti, so extremist. It smells of special interest. 

Let me tell you why we don't have alot of musky in Michigan.
Because the state has made a consious decision not to. That is the reason. That is a fact and it has been that way for over 30 years. 

This is why I don't support C&R. I support conservation.

Strict C&R is just a soft form of anti hunting fishing. 

Spearing under size pike? That is so much balogna (balony), I tip up and I don't keep anything that doesn't have meat on it. That puts keepers out to about 26" forget about wether they're legal. So what you really saying is because we have crappy sportsman in the spearing sport. You condem the sport. 

This crap about spearing 200 pike out of a whole and wipping out the population. That poaching man. that has nothing to do with the sport of spearing. I went out 4 times last year and harvested 3 pike. 

To see if a musky is legal you would need a "3 foot whole". What exactly do you think we spear through? 

I know alot of you take part in other sports. When was the last time you caught and release a buck. 

How come alot of you claim you won't waterfowl hunt a 3 duck limit because its not worth it. 

Your trophy fishing sport is exclusive to a very very few and you want to push everybody else aside for your own interest. And do it by laws at that. No way man. 

Just an F.Y.I. I would never harvest a musky just because they are so rare. Doesn't mean I'm jumping on this anti campaign.

You wanted to know how people feel. Now you know.


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## Duke (Oct 6, 2000)

Hey RIP, good post you gotta come strong or not come at all eh. However, are you sure you are directing your angst in the right direction? You said "Your group is classic "I don't understand it and I don't do it, so lets ban it" " I can only assume the group you are referring to is the Michigan Muskie Alliance, and if that is true you are wrong and let me tell you why. There have been many things said in this very long thread that you may be attributing to this "group" mistakenly. You would have to read the whole darn thing, and read it very attentively to be able to separate the 2 things. There are A LOT of details behind this that most people haven't heard, which leads to jumping to conclusions such as MMA is against spearing or against any harvest of fish. Neither are true. 

You say you do not support C & R, you support _conservation_ . So you obviously get it, that sometimes C & R *IS* conservation, and sometimes it is not. You yourself stated that for a fish as rare as muskies, C & R is the best form of conservation. That is all that the MMA's position boils down to as well. The closer you get to C & R for muskies, the better. 

Look at a map and you can see why very little State money has gone towards muskies. Fish are dollars in this state, and muskies cannot compete economically with Great Lakes fisheries. It has nothing to do with the State making a conscious decision to exclude muskies. If the fishing and tourist public stood up today and said they wanted muskies, by God the DNR would do it and often times they have done such things in response to public opinion that go AGAINST best science. They are a political organization as much as a natural resources organization.

I do consider spearing a sport or sporting, I do not condemn that sport, and I can speak on behalf of MMA and say as a group they feel the same. Most people don't believe it but it is true. MMA has even extended invitations to the Michigan Darkhouse Anglers to work together for the betterment of musky fisheries across the state (with no response from them, by the way). They, like yourself, have already labeled MMA an "anti, extremist, elitist" or whatever other crap. It just aint true. If you all would bother to check with MMA to see where they actually stand, in their own words, there wouldn't this type of attitude against them.

Every species of fish in this state except for sturgeon is managed for the table, are you going to tell me that there is not room for any trophy fishing whatsoever? I am here to tell you that there are a hell of a lot more people who would like to catch a huge fish for the thrill of the trophy than you may be estimating. Go research tourist dollars in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio and Ontario and ask those people if creating trophy fisheries has been exclusionary or elitist. Their pocketbooks could answer for you! To say that MMA or musky anglers are pushing away others for their own interests is the most ridiculous statement you could have made. They are RELEASING their trophy of a lifetime, with a good chance that someone else will come along and enjoy that fish again, and they may keep it. And anyone can do it- it doesn't take someone with lots of money or special status or anything else that is associated with the "trophy hunters". That is their choice to keep a legal fish and no one can fault it. Anyone who tells them it is wrong IS WRONG, and those words come directly from the mouth of the MMA. http://www.michiganmuskiealliance.org


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## RIP (Jun 4, 2002)

Duke,

Some of your response to my statement about the state of Michigan making a concious dicision not to promote a Musky program may be true, but they still made that conscious dicision. 

I am familiar with Wisconsin and Minnesota's Musky fisheries, but they don't have Salmon Steelhead and laketrout. Not like we do anyway.

I expected a response from MMA. We can debate all day about it.

As long as I'm debating with your organization, I'm not going to win because there is a concerted effort and geniune interest among your members to provide good wholesome sporting oppertunities. The problem is, you made your plea and the first 
ten responses or so jumped on board without much thought. I don't think you got to the bottom of the first page and we were banning spearing of everything from pike to carp. 

As much as I would like to, I simply don't have time to respond to all of your positions. When I said your motives were not clear, I should have said you are not united amongst your extended groups of supporters enough to be taken seriously. I know your cause is genuine, but how do you propose to control the motives of those extended supporters. 

I know for a fact Essox and Kingfisher would prefer that I can't harvest northers by tip-up. Sorry guys I'm not bashing you either, but you have your thing and it would be better for you if it was exclusive. 

I can't read this post without running as fast as I can away from your initiative. Can you really blame me. 

I would like to say educate, educate educate and then come back to me in a year and I might be in a position to support you. Unfortunately, I am seeing legislation and regulation propose by special interest sporting groups backing the Michigan sportsman right up against the wall that the anti's want us. I have removed the Pere Marquette River from my maps because of these very same well intended initiatives. 

The honest of god truth is, I didn't know you could spear musky iether. We just don't have any to speak of in all the areas I fish.

I am so sick of QDM, and C&R and flies only and and and and grrrr.

Sorry man, I'd like to be able to support a worthy cause, but you can see my fears are real. I have one weak left to hunt squirrels before I have to tip toe my way arround fanatical bow hunters that are sure their hunt is more important than mine.


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## jaid (Jul 5, 2002)

Just for the record, Wisconsins salmon fishery is easily on par with ours. Indiana's steelhead fishery easily surpasses ours. The spearing of pike and carp were never questioned or addressed by the proposed musky spearing ban. 



> I can't read this post without running as fast as I can away from your initiative.


This is exactly why the proposed ban was dropped, negative response is worse for musky conservation than no ban at all.



> I would like to say educate, educate educate and then come back to me in a year and I might be in a position to support you.


The MMA puts extensive funds and effort into education. Have you ever seen a "Know the difference" musky sign at a lake you fish at? If so, the MMA put it there. If not, let the MMA know there is a musky lake without one, and they will get it there. I guarantee that if you have additional ideas for improving musky education, the MMA would LOVE to hear them. Education is definitely a key to musky conservation.


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## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

Yada yada yada,,,,this thread makes me laugh. Angler against angler,,,my way is the best way,,,your way is unethical,,,,you folks are killin me. I don't care who says what about anything. If you haven't set in a shanty over a 16" live sucker decoy as a big head makes it's way into the hole you haven't done nothing as far as fishing is concerned. Drag scraming,,,done that,,,pole bent done that too,,,,not even close to the adrenaline rush when that head appears in the shanty hole eyeing that big ole sucker. And if your lucky enough to move to get your spear in hand before the fish bolts after setting sometimes hours on end or even days you still have to line it up and hit the darn thing. Not a sport,,,give me a friggin break. Simpletons is what is killing the outdoor sports,,,hunting and fishing. Looks awefull when that fish comes off the spear,,bleeding hearts would say that, but it's a pretty quick death. Now take the same fish,,,,,100 catch and releases and at the minimum 10% probably more like 30% or more if the truth be known suffer a long agonizing death of fungas from being mishandled or just being faught too long in warm waters and is beyond reviving. Do you hear us complain about that. We really should as anglers as a whole. There are way more fish dying from catch and release methods then that would ever be speared and killed quickly I might add and also ate by the angler. This is just a selfish way of not sharing the resource with another technique to enjoy the outdoors. Typical BS that is killin our great outdoor activities. My way or the highway,,,,can't laugh anymore about it,,,,it's really sad


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## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

Oh yea,,,heres' another 2 cents worth. A person who spears must have the patience of Jobe,,,sometimes aweful long stints without even a wink from Mr. Northern. Most folks can't sit that long without some type of action,,,,,that's the big reason spearing is not more popular. You can bet even if the Musky spearing would ever pass,,,it wouldn't catch on big anyway. People now adays can't sit for long periods of time without seeing anything or hearing that line scream. Sometimes patience is a good thing.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I have never speared[ except , well better not go there] but find the historical aspect fascinating. IN this area about the only people who care about pike and muskie are the guys who spear. They probably would like to see the season limited to jan1 to march1 . Also it bother me to see salmon and trout guys killing northerns in the pm river. steelhead salmon and browns are introduced species northerns are naturals, and add to the character of the river.


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

This has been a pretty decent debate so far and I am proud of everyone...lets keep it that way ok? Thanks!


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## Duke (Oct 6, 2000)

Coldwater you have opened yourself up to a lot more debate, but really it is mostly things that have been said already. I have to ask you to please do your homework and go back and read everything very carefully  yeah right. 

Anyway, the one thing I do HAVE to say is you say you haven't been fishing until you feel the rush of that gator head appearing in your hole after needing the patience of Job... I have to describe musky fishing for you real quick because I can say, "brother, I have been fishing!" and I haven't speared through the ice. 

You still need all the patience in the world to cast muskies ( you may have heard the fish of 10, 000 casts). Then lo and behold, when you least expect it and you believe there doesn't live a musky in the lake, there appears that same gator head, charging after your lure, following every move left, right, closing the gap, picking up speed when the lure does. Oh yeah and you can now see the rest of the damn fish out of the waves and the glare, giant head to massive tail! As the 10" lure nears the rod tip you lower your rod, fully submerged you start to turn the lure in a big circle and maybe throw in some figure 8s. Seems silly right? Uh uh- that massive fish is still there, right below your feet and still snapping and lunging at the lure. Big black eyes... "(_like a doll's eye..._" so fixated on that gaudy thing in front of her, pissing her off, that she doesn't see the boat, the rod, or you. Or maybe she does but she doesn't care because she is the baddest thing that swims and she knows it. Finally that lure cuts across her snout one too many times and she snaps- opening as wide as a bucket and killing that lure like a squirrel in a bear trap!! Now go toe to toe with that burte musky in a whitewater battle and tell me that ain't fishing! Yeah!- man thats got me all worked up now!!

Anyway, NOT that spearing isn't fun or isn't a sport (like I already said, it is) and not that it doesn't have its place... just nevermind that Michigan is the ONLY place in the world where non-Natvies can spear muskies. But hey, thats the way it has been forever, and thats the way it should stay. BUT- there are lakes that never had muskies in them before, the DNR planted them, so there is no spearing history there. Half of those lakes already have winter restrictions (season closure or spearing closure). There are many lakes that still have spearing restrictions even though muskies are not being planted anymore, these lakes no longer should have spearing bans (used to be Tiger musky only planted- sterile fish, now dead). The DNR did this to protect the massive investment (per fish unit). You do the math and tell me why the other planted lakes aren't winter-protected. We are working with the DNR, they don't have a reason either. It wasn't MMA's idea to impose spearing ban regulations on those stocked lakes- the precedent had been set by the DNR on the other stocked lakes. MMA just followed suit. BY THE WAY- THE REST OF THE STOCKED LAKES THAT MMA WAS LOOKING TO EXTEND THESE REGULATIONS TO AMOUNTED TO ABOUT A DOZEN. TOTAL. STATEWIDE. 

My guess is the naysayers out there didn't realize that, did you? Its all water under the bridge though- even this small of a regulations change has been aborted, as you all should know by now. The reason being the last thing the MMA wants to do is divide fishermen, any method, in any way against each other. Its true. You all refuse to hear it because you want a frickin witch hunt for anything that could possibly be anti or elitist or whatever else. And thats ok to a point- a hunt for that crap is good, a witch hunt and seeing things or making up things that aint there is not good. Get the facts. What you are looking for is not at MMA. MMA hates the antis just like the rest of us do on this forum. They're just a bunch of guys who fish muskies and would love to see enough around so that spearing or illegal harvest or over harvest would not even be an issue at all.

And if you come over and see, you will notice that education is MMA's number one goal. And education on how to release fish so they have a high chance of survival is at the top of that list. And the last thing I have to say is that Coldwater himself is guilty of the same rhetoric of the antis. He said muskies could "suffer a long agonizing death of fungas" when released improperly. Its just a fish- it doesn't agonize. That kind of language is used by the antis to put fish and animals on a level with humans, and in my opinion is wrong and should never be used to make a point. The G__ D____ animal rights idiots are making headway among the ignorant people of the world (not necessarily stupid, just ignorant) using this type of BS.


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

Very well said duke...I haven't been following this thread post for post, I'll admit that. From what I have read some people are for spearing, some people are against spearing and some just say to each his own...Personally, I do all sorts of fishing, even ice fishing and to sit in my shanty and just wait for a big mooskie to swim in would be boring. Now if I was perch fishing and saw one and pulled out my spear, that's a different story. My only problem is how the heck do you measure a Muskie under the ice before you throw that spear? How many sub-legal muskies are speared and then thrown back dead? Lastly...no one I know that Muskie fishes keeps the fish unless it's a wall hanger...so...I guess I just got to my real point of view on this...Why spear Muskies when you don't eat them cause once the spear hits them they are done in. Hmmm...this is an interesting subject...


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## RIP (Jun 4, 2002)

jaid,

I mean this with respect and I know this is subject to opinion.

Wisconson big lake fishing, No comparison. I have a freind who grew up with me on the shore of Lake Michigan. He moved to Green Bay 20 years ago. He's a tourny walleye guy now. 

Indiana, They plant alot of Skaminia. But, fact is they don't even have their own river. They only have part of one. We have the rest of it. 


Anyway, Its clear that you need to have patience and good language skills to change minds on a site like this. I haven't alway had that. I think my post did cause a few people to stop and think. You guy's have a good cause, but you have alot of work to do before people that don't have Musky opportunities,
can support you as fellow sportman. Remeber, we're not getting anything out of this. We want to help, but, we can't risk the smallest chance of loosing something in return.

Coldwater, I'm suprised. This really hasn't been that bad of a thread compared to some. I do agree though, that the negative comments regarding Michigans 2 month spearing season are from people that have never peared down in to the obiss. 

Go billed a shanty, set it, cut a 3' by 4' whole in the ice, carve a decoy wait and wait and wait, only to have the hard earned opportunity slowly glide in to the murky depths and cheat you out of what you work so hard for. 

Big Toothey. I know him and he knows me. We go way back. He's out there. Cruisng that reef. He knows I'm here. He's laughin at me. "Go home old man, theres no ice here for you today". Okay big toothy. You own the reef today, but the old mercury line is droppin, I'll be back and will see who owns the reef then.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

> _Originally posted by RIP _
> * I do agree though, that the negative comments regarding Michigans 2 month spearing season are from people that have never peared down in to the obiss.
> *


UH_OH another one of those generalizations we should all try to avoid. I have speared many a pike, and will continue to do so on lakes that are full of stunted Pike and have no length restrictions on them. What I do not agree with, and think is a total waste of a resourse is to run a spear through a 20+ yr old hen Muskie. I also think it is a lot harder to spend hours and hours to lure a big Esox of either variety into a hole and get it to want to actually FEED on what you are offering, rather than impale it on cold steel.


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## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

I tried to read most of this thread,,,,most not all,,,,way to much BS in the threads to keep my interest,,,,Just because it is written here or there doesn't make it fact. 

I didn't post because I'm opposed of designated trophy lakes because I'm not, designated trophy lakes can be a great thing for the area and the anglers. I posted that it isn't good for any of us with the in fighting and selfish mentality that I was reading in some of the posts and also to help enlighten those folks that have never tried Pike spearing that seem to be under the impression from some posts that it is some mid evil barbaric technique and unsporting only kept around because of the history of it. Although it is true, Pike spearing through the ice has a touch of nostalgia and history in it. Boring, no doubt, long hours trying to get lucky,,,yup, but when it happens to come together and you finally get the opportunity there is nothing I know like it,,,,maybe watching a huge buck sneak through the woods heading towards your stand,,, but even then, 99% of the time there is "a little" warning to get ready,,,there is no warning when a huge Pike comes in,,,he just appears,,,sure once in a while when a smaller Pike is slashing through or stalking your decoy,,,the decoys [live]gets nervous,,,,but that can happen when someone is auguring a hole threw the ice. 

Like I said before,,,Spearing through the ice is not for everybody,,,if your not patient,,,,don't bother....It can be long periods of boredom, but if your patient it can be cut by seconds of pure adrenaline and mayhem. Seems like a waste of time to most,,,kinda similar to making all those cast to catch that Musky. 

Now,,,,I didn't start the debate about the killing of Pike or Musky,,,,who ever it was that posted the catch and release % of mortality verses a speared dead fish. The only sure way I know of to give the fish the best chance of survival after catching it is to never touch it,,,never take it out of the water and get the hooks out quickly,,,actually,,,probably any catch and release fishery should be barbless too. If this is done,,,I would say the percentage that die or become real sick are less then 10% probably closer to less then 1%. Now,,,,if the fish happens to take the lure deeper then the outside lip,,,removing the hooks become more of a chore and takes longer giving more stress to the fish,you have to handle the fish,,you add that to the stress of the fight,,,then I would say that the fishes survival rates are much lower then the quick release. Now,,,the fish that swallows the bait till it's either hooked in the back of the throat or in the gills,,,that fish might as well be thrown in the cooler or the live well,,,because it won't make it through the day or even an hour. When fish are on the bite,,,,they generally swallow it to the back of the throat or hooked deep in the gills. 

The problem with some folks sometimes as I stated before,,,,,not knowing the facts and making opinions known can do more damage then some that are opposed completely of what we do,,,enjoy our great outdoors,,,,It suppose to be about all of us enjoying the resource not hording it to a specialized group. And when push comes to shove we are our own worst enemies,,,,sometimes we do more damage to ourselves then the Anti's could do in a month of Sunday's. Greed is man's biggest downfall,,,,if more folks worried more about sharing our resource then how to keep others from enjoying their way, legal and ethical in the outdoors,,,our own stress levels would be less and more enjoyment would be had by all.


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## pikeslime (Jan 2, 2001)

Coldwater,
Here are a couple of quotes from earlier posts in case you didn't read them:

"Done. Now wheres the petition to ban Pike speariing???"

"Do the pikemasters still have representation in Michigan? Im sure they would be interested in a spearing ban for pike as well as musky. Maybe it could become a joint project of sorts?"

"I'll, sign the,Pike, one too. Now lets stop carp with a bow.They don't release well with an arrow sticking through them either."


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## jaid (Jul 5, 2002)

Hey pikeslime, 

While those quotes are in fact from this thread, it should be noted that none of those ideas were addressed nor implied in the original musky spearing ban. That was what got everything on the wrong track. The spearing ban would have only affected a few select musky lakes, and only been on musky. It was aimed to better the conservation of the musky, not to start an anti-spearing campaign in michigan. The motives have since been completely misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. I wish that those that have serious concerns would take the time to look into the work the MMA does and maybe understand what their aims are instead of assuming that everything they propose has a hidden agenda aimed at pleasing a group of so called elitist fisherman and ruining fishing for everyone else.

http://www.michiganmuskiealliance.org



MMA Mission Statement said:


> To encourage the understanding of the Muskellunge through education and promote quality conservation and research practices.
> 
> -To promote a high quality Muskellunge sport fishery;
> -To support selected conservation practices based on scientific merit and carried out by authorized federal and state agencies;
> ...


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