# Handgun Transport -



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Ray - I asked the MSP the questions I asked you - here was my question:

I own two pistols, a 357 and 45acp - I DO NOT have a CCW permit. I own property in Michigan. I plan to visit there this fall. Can I transport my hand guns into Michigan locked in is a strong box in my truck? I'm going to be there only 2 weeks, what must I do when I arrive with regard to the hand guns? I want to target shoot on my farm. Or is it just smarter to leave them at home and not fool with it?

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I got their response this morning:

A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the *registered owner of the firearm * and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

=====================

Under lawful purpose is this:

While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

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I'm assuming this would be my situation - transporting - from home (in Tennessee) to Private property (In Michigan) - 

==========================

My question is this: *registered owner of the firearm * There is NO requirement in the state of Tennessee to "register' fireams - therefor - no 'record' of who the owner is - One I purchased via FFD w/a background check - the other - I 'inherated' from my sister when her husband passed away - 

How do I prove, if necessary to Michigan LEO that I'm the 'owner' of these two firearms?

Thanks Ray 

ferg....


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

Since TN doesn't have registration, all you need to be is the owner by TN law & that will meet the requirement for MI law.


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## redneckdan (Dec 14, 2004)

I would see about getting some kind of letter from the chief of police where you live, detailing Tennesses laws and that you do in fact own the guns. All you need is a sheriff's deputy in some county up here that is not familiar with TN's laws and whammo, you get to spend a night in uncle sam's pent house while they try to charge you with a firearms feloney.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

redneckdan said:


> I would see about getting some kind of letter from the chief of police where you live, detailing Tennesses laws and that you do in fact own the guns. All you need is a sheriff's deputy in some county up here that is not familiar with TN's laws and whammo, you get to spend a night in uncle sam's pent house while they try to charge you with a firearms feloney.


Bingo - that's my 'worry' - I guess a bill of sale wouldn't be enough in this case - I did make a copy of the Michigan law to carry with me to show 'in case'. The problem is, there is no law, anyway can go in and buy a handgun as long as they submit to the background checks and go via a FFD.

There are no certificate showing ownership and the like - 

Thanks everyone for the input - I'll keep digging - 

ferg....


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## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

Look at the bottom line....what are the odds of LE having probable cause to go prowling around in your trunk?

What are the odds of LE paying you a visit on your farm while you are lawfully engaged in target practice?

Are you sporting TN plates and a TN ops license?

I seriously doubt that you would get hauled to the pokey even if you run into LE.....maybe just carry the MSP response and a copy of your states requirements for gun ownership...

Or, if you give me the farm and the guns, I will stop at my new property and let you shoot both of my new guns if you want to.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

lwingwatcher said:


> Look at the bottom line....what are the odds of LE having probable cause to go prowling around in your trunk?
> 
> What are the odds of LE paying you a visit on your farm while you are lawfully engaged in target practice?
> 
> ...


Your absolutly right - chances are very small that anything would happen in the first place - 

No deal on the farm/gun swap either LOL :lol: 

ferg....

thanks


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

Lets Say You Do Come To Mi. With Your None Registered Pistols. In Mi The Leos I Know Take No Ifs Ans Or Maybes, If You Are Stopped And You Don't Declare Those Pistols A.s.a.p. Bingo--- Felony #1 
#2 Our Law In Mi. Says Registered, Therefore In The Leos Eyes And Interpatation Of The Law He Will One Arrest You, Two Take Those Weapons And Keep Them In Safe Keeping For You Until You Can Prove Flat Out Ownership, That Is After The Hotel Visit At The County Lodge. Now As You Pointed Out That You Want To Fire Them Off On Your Property, Well, If Your In The Neck Of Woods I Come From You'll Be Getting A Visit From Someone And If It's The Leos And They See Mister Pistola Be Ready For The Above. And Oh Yes On The Weekends No One And I Mean No One Will Be In Any Hurry To Get You Before A Judge, So It'll Be An Extended Weekend. P.s. Don't Come To Alcona County They Make You Pay For The Stay!


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Again Ferg, the way the handgun laws have changed I can not give you a for sure answer for if "any" cop stopped you simply because I have not kept up with those particular laws. I would say that if I stopped a person in that situation, I would not be concerned about the guy having handguns packed away but I can't answer for others. Again, might be best to contact MSP with the follow up question.

Besides, about 150 more working days and I won't be keeping up on any laws.


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## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI said:


> Lets Say You Do Come To Mi. With Your None Registered Pistols. In Mi The Leos I Know Take No Ifs Ans Or Maybes, If You Are Stopped And You Don't Declare Those Pistols A.s.a.p. Bingo--- Felony #1
> 
> 
> #2 Our Law In Mi. Says Registered, Therefore In The Leos Eyes And Interpatation Of The Law He Will One Arrest You


Do you happen to have legal cites for 

#1 Felony failing to declare

#2 Requirement for non resident to have pistol registered pursuant to Mi laws

I guess I would really like to read the statutes that you are referring to....perhaps we all would benefit if you were to post them up...


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## Avidhunter (Feb 23, 2004)

lwingwatcher said:


> Do you happen to have legal cites for
> 
> #1 Felony failing to declare
> 
> ...


I would certainly be interested also. I was under the impression that(oddly enough) failing to declare only applied to CCW permitees, and that Michigan law only requires the weapon to be properly licensed in the individuals home state. Which in Ferg's case- it would be. Hence, no violation.

Ferg, on the flipside- anything you can do to protect your interest would just be a bonus. Not to go off on LEO's- every profession has its over zealous individuals, but any info you could carry with you would help your cause. Jody


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## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

Avidhunter said:


> I was under the impression that(oddly enough) failing to declare only applied to CCW permitees, and that Michigan law only requires the weapon to be properly licensed in the individuals home state. Which in Ferg's case- it would be. Hence, no violation.


me too, but I still never heard of a felong charge for even a blue card holder failing to immediately advise LE that they are packed.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

but - It may be to my 'benfit' that I'm also a retired federal LEO - 

That might help - 

And Mr Ray - I don't blame you for not keeping up LOL - when I retired I totally stopped with all this - 

That's why I'm here asking you and others LOL - 



ferg....


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI said:


> Well, If Your In The Neck Of Woods I Come From You'll Be Getting A Visit From Someone And If It's The Leos And They See Mister Pistola Be Ready For The Above. And Oh Yes On The Weekends No One And I Mean No One Will Be In Any Hurry To Get You Before A Judge, So It'll Be An Extended Weekend. P.s. Don't Come To Alcona County They Make You Pay For The Stay!


My farm is WAY away from anyone - and actually - I'm related to almost everyone in Alcona County - so - someone will come get my ass 

ferg....
Including the current judge  :yikes:


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## Avidhunter (Feb 23, 2004)

lwingwatcher said:


> me too, but I still never heard of a felong charge for even a blue card holder failing to immediately advise LE that they are packed.


I let my permit expire and didn't renew under the new laws, so I'm not certain of the current laws. I don't know if its a felony or not, but I read part of the existing law stated that upon being pulled over by a LEO, permitees are required to declare if their "packin". Unless it was changed it does not say "immediately declare", only that it is required.

I remember a case a few years ago in southern Mich. where a fellow got pulled over. The LEO ran his DL then asked him if he was carrying. The man acknowledged he was and was arrested for failing to "immediately" declare he was carrying. The prosecutor didn't agree with the new laws and chose that forum for challenging it. I never heard the outcome. I imagine the charges were dropped, but the man spent a day in the pokey and certainly a considerable amount on an attorney.  Jody


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## Avidhunter (Feb 23, 2004)

Ferg said:


> but - It may be to my 'benfit' that I'm also a retired federal LEO -
> 
> That might help -
> 
> ferg....


Ferg, Sure can't hurt  Jody


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## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

Avidhunter said:


> I don't know if its a felony or not, but I read part of the existing law stated that upon being pulled over by a LEO, permitees are required to declare if their "packin". Unless it was changed it does not say "immediately declare", only that it is required.



If I am up to date....28.425f (3) requires a licensee to "immediately disclose"

First offense is a civil infraction (NOT A FELONY) but the penalties are stiff.

As I read it, the pistol also can be seized and the licensee has 45 days to display a blue card.

But....then again....my copy of the Firearms Laws of Michigan could be outdated....


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

Kind of like my question earlier this year, I was told since I am a Resident of Colorado, that to use or hunt with a Handgun in the State of Michigan, i would need a Carry Permit from my State, since Colorado does not have a carry permit. I would need to get a concealed carry permit as you are required by Michigan law to have a permit just to take a pistol to a range, that is the only way I can shoot or hunt with any of my handguns in Michigan, Got the answer from Michigan State Police headquarters. They stated that anything else would be violation of Michigan Law. If anything has changed since February I would like to know. Les


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## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

Violator22 said:


> I would need to get a concealed carry permit as you are required by Michigan law to have a permit just to take a pistol to a range, that is the only way I can shoot or hunt with any of my handguns in Michigan


I don't know of any provisions for non-residents to get CPL's in this State.

And, I guess I don't know where the law is that requires a permit to transport a firearm to the range.

I do know for a fact that different folks (LE included) give a variety of advice on the relevant laws and often that advice conflicts. Considering what is at stake, it seems to make sense to go straight to the law for advice and that means the applicable statute....not just the opinion of anybody....


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

This link may help answer some questions since there is getting conflicting opinions posted without any referances to back up some of the opinions.

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10953--,00.html


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

Needed a Conceal permit from my Home state of Colorado, just to use my Pistol on my Dads property in Jones, hunting or target shooting. Les


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

what the MSP Emailed me when I asked them:

If I do not have a CCW permit, may I transport my pistol in a motor vehicle?

Answer:

A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle.



The law defines lawful purpose as:

While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. 
While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair. 
While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business. 
While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol. 
While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale. 
While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted. 
*While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.*


My situation is in Bold - I'll be transporting from my home to my private property to target shoot - and Mi law says you can carry on your private property with OUT a CCW - so, it looks like it's all good 

ferg....


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

I am a non-resident as I think you might be, your a Tennesse resident aren't you? If so, double check yourself, just trying to keep you on the right side of the law here. This is where they got their info from and it also regards just using a Handgun in MI: 
[size=-1]*21. I am an out-of-state resident. Can I legally hunt deer with a pistol in Michigan?*[/size]

[size=-1]MCL 750.231a If you have a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by another state, you may qualify to possess a pistol while hunting depending on the license restrictions from your home state and providing you are also in possession of a valid Michigan non-resident hunting license. You must also carry in compliance with all Michigan's firearms laws. For further questions regarding firearms issued as they relate to hunting see: http://midnr.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/MiDNR.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php.[/size]

I was told that even bringing a hundgun in as a Non-resident without having a concealed carry permit was not allowed, that doesn't just cover hunting, it is all use, since olorado doesn't require one to carry, and your not required to license your handguns there. I was told I couldn't even bring my pistols in state. If what you were told is true, why doesn't it apply to hunt, Boehr. That seems like double talk to me. I had tried all of the other ideas, letter from My County Sheriff as proof of ownership. Was told I had to have a CCW from my state. Thanks, Les


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

I think this law has just changed recently - as far as transport - 

I'll not be hunting at all - 

ferg....

And I DO want to be on the right side of the law - that's why I emailed MSP Directly to get an answer -


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

But are you planning on doing any shooting at all, I was told I couldn't even shoot them on my Familys property, just target shooting. That is what baffles me. I spoke to one of the captains out of headquarters in Lansing about this, He stated, if I planned on using it period, Shooting or Huntign or just plain carrying on my person unconcealed, i would be breaking the law because they have no proof that it really is mine, that is why they want the CCW from you state, a letter from the local sheriff wouldn't work because they are not considered a state agency. It is freakin' nuts. Last summer I wanted to take my lastest TC Contender to my dads just to shoot, not with-out a CCW I wasn't. My Local Sheriff thinks it is as nuts as I do. Les:sad:


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## alex-v (Mar 24, 2005)

Violator22 said:


> ....He stated, if I planned on using it period, Shooting or Huntign or just plain carrying on my person unconcealed, i would be breaking the law because they have no proof that it really is mine, that is why they want the CCW from you state,.....


And, just how does a CCW prove ownership. Most states do not require that a person can only carry a specific handgun concealed. Michigan certainly does not. So, are they saying that only CCW permits that specify a certain handgun and list the make, model and serial number are legit for transporting into the state.


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

No, but as an out of state resident, I must have a CCW to be able to bring any handgun across state lines unless I am selling it. then I must have an FFL or C&R license. It is not weapon specific, I did get that clarified today. I cannot see the sense in this. But hey it's all about the politics, can't do anything till you get ahold of some state representatives. Which I plan on doing here pretty quick. Am going to get my Dad to file a complaint with hist state representative. les


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

To the best of my knowledge, what Violator22 states is correct. That is how it has always been for non-residents even prior the the "carry" laws changing. That is also what it states on the MSP web site. Remember, the Michigan legislature doesn't answer to non-residents because non-residents don't vote here anyway which is why I doubt that a change in what is allowed by non-residents will happen along with this state can't control what other states allow their residents to do.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

I'm thinking that I should just leave them home and not worry about - I was 'advised' that because I would be a Tennessee Resident that TN law would be honord by MI - but I don't think I'll chance it -  

I'm actually suprized that Mi is so tight on this issue as they are a great sportsmans state -

ferg....


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

I sent violator22's response and Mr Rays last comment to the local in Alcona - and this is what I got back :


Not true  You CAN transport across state lines in the contiguous 48 as long as you follow local rules on transporting (i.e. Locked Case, not accessible to passenger compartment, and unloaded separated from ammo). The issue is one of loading the weapon and using it  The DNR is only involved on State Land and the sheriff is only involved if there is a crime being committed. There are no regulations about discharging firearms on private property in Alcona County unless superseded by local city or township ordinances. In Gustin Township you are OK to discharge a firearm, legally owned by you, and on private property (also owned by you) as long as you are not attempting to hunt or kill wildlife and are not posing a danger to neighboring property (I.e. using a natural or approved backstop).

As long as your on Private Propery .. owned by you  the sheriff wont have a problem with it and your gun is still registered in the LEIN system National Law Enforcement Network which is required when purchasing a handgun in ANY state. Although in most states this is done by the seller..............

end

ferg....


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Ferg said:


> The DNR is only involved on State Land and the sheriff is only involved if there is a crime being committed.


This part here tells me that the person answering does not quite know what he is talking about. So someone poaching a deer with a handgun on their own property the sheriff will handle and the DNR will not be involved? I'd be more apt to go by the question and answer portion on the MSP web site that I posted than what the e-mailing person states. :lol: 

Hey, but to each their own, you have to go by whoever you want to believe. Just hope they will testify for you as to what they said even though it is unlikely that anything may happen. :lol:


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

On a 'related' subject - Ray, what type of information has been passed down to LEO with regard to the new federal carry law ? I'm thinking that with my retired ID and badge - that it may not even be at issue if stopped for some reason - especally if I'm NOT carring only transporting - 

ferg....


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Well, I have all my stuff at home although there are some web sites with the info but basically;
An officer becomes qualified if he or she is a currently certified officer and:
Has full arrest powers; 
Is authorized by his or her agency to carry a firearm; 
Is not the subject of any disciplinary action by their employing agency; 
Meets their employing agencys firearms qualification requirements; 
Is not under the influence of drugs or alcohol; and 
Is not prohibited by federal law from possessing a firearm. 

For a retired officer, the officer must meet the following to be qualified:

Retired in good standing; 
Prior to retirement had full arrest powers; 
Had 15 or more years of employment as a law enforcement officer; or 
Retired due to a service connected disability; 
Has a non-forfeitable (vested) right to retirement benefits with employing agency; 
During prior 12 months met states firearms qualifications; and 
Is not under the influence of alcohol or drugs. 

Here are some links for you.

http://www.ipacops.org/PDF/HR218 Passes.pdf
http://www.oregon.gov/DPSST/HR218.shtml


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

I had that stuff - I wondered if the information has been filtered down to the field level officer - so they would be aware of the new law - 

ferg....


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

All CO's have knowledge about it including our retirees. We have, for about the last 6-months now been issuing pictured ID cards as guys retire and sending new ID cards to the CO's that previously retired.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

boehr said:


> All CO's have knowledge about it including our retirees. We have, for about the last 6-months now been issuing pictured ID cards as guys retire and sending new ID cards to the CO's that previously retired.


Thanks Ray - appriecate you letting me tie up your bandwidth with this stuff 

ferg....


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## Avidhunter (Feb 23, 2004)

I'm glad you fellows didn't pull it and go private. Makes for some interesting reading. 

I had no idea the laws were so strict for non-residents. Just goes to show you can learn something new everyday.  Jody


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

Ferg, Like the PM I sent you, you are a retired federal officer......You have a back door for yourself and then NO issues.....We were all made aware of the Nation wide LEO new CCW laws.....Local, County and federal level.... That way if we ran into someone there would not be any issues..... 

I drove to Florida this spring and was nice insurance to have Mr. Glock along... :Modified_


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

Ferg, thats good that all will work out, I just reccomend that you go and just requal with your best pistol. By my readings all should be good then. Glad it will all work out for you. Boehr, thanks, I appreciate your help on this topic a few months ago, I had forgotten to thank you then. When I get back to Colorado, I am going to get my CCW, that way I don't have to worry if any of the CO's from Cass County show up and ask what the heck am I doing hunting with a handgun. Les


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