# 450BM vs 308Win for Baited Black Bear



## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

My 2 sons & I are heading to Maine on Black Bear hunt in 2 weeks. For those who have shot bear with either or similar, which of the 2 loads would be better?
-450BM w/Barnes 250TTSX or 275TSX
-308 Win w 180gr Rem Core Lokt Round Nose Soft Points


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Both will work just fine with a properly placed shot. Have them google bear anatomy shot placement.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

Luv2hunteup said:


> Both will work just fine with a properly placed shot. Have them google bear anatomy shot placement.


We have spent a lot of time doing that and it seems to come down to 2 different strategies. 
One camp says to shoot intentionally aim for the shoulder or slightly behind it to go for the heart or break the shoulder...
The other says to simply go middle of the middle and take out both lungs like bowhunting deer but just further back.
(there is also another variant on the middle of the middle placement (which I was leaning towards)is to put it halfway between back of closest leg and the "middle of the middle"..

Going for the lungs, I would think the 452 bullet would be the best option as it will ensure a big enough hole to be less likely to clog/ensure blood trail. I would think it would not be as good if purposely aiming in vicinity of bone due to less chance of pass through.

The 308 and 180gr RN should expand quickly on entrance and have the mass/SD to increase likelihood of pass through regardless of bone, but a smaller hole through the lungs which can clog to make tracking tough..

I guess depending upon which aiming strategy you recommend would help me choose which would be better. Probably overthinking this, but I've never killed one before and the horror stories of lost bears have me wanting to improve my 14/yo's odds.
For me I have a pump 308 so I'll just shoot it until it drops or it runs out of range...lol
The kid and a bolt gun is likely to get only one shot to at least knock it down and give him time for a second shot...


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I aim for the offside shoulder to break it down but after taking the air out of it. Slightly quartering away to quartering away is preferred but I will take a head shot to drop them where they stand if the opportunity arises.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

Do you think that would be the best strategy for my 14 year old or should he wait for the broadside and try to just take out the lungs? Will the 308 w/180RN or 450 w/250TTSX be enough to blow through after hitting a shoulder?


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

Driven2tri24 said:


> My 2 sons & I are heading to Maine on Black Bear hunt in 2 weeks. For those who have shot bear with either or similar, which of the 2 loads would be better?
> -450BM w/Barnes 250TTSX or 275TSX
> -308 Win w 180gr Rem Core Lokt Round Nose Soft Points


It really comes down to which rifle you would prefer, since both cartridges will work. I would prefer the 308, but mainly for the reduced recoil.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Driven2tri24 said:


> Do you think that would be the best strategy for my 14 year old or should he wait for the broadside and try to just take out the lungs? Will the 308 w/180RN or 450 w/250TTSX be enough to blow through after hitting a shoulder?


Take out the lungs they won’t go far. Broadside with onside leg forward will get it done. There are all kinds of images online to look at. No quartering too Or frontal shots should be attempted!


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

308 and be done with it. You'll likely get pass through anyway. And unless it's a marginal shot, the bear won't likely go more than 20 yards.

Shot my first with a 308. It went 5 yards.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

I have a similar story with my .308 but to be honest its performance is probably overkill for woods hunting. My brother shot a deer with the bm and the bullet pretty much disintegrated. But that deer was indeed dead and if it's important to you then just get a better bullet I suppose.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

If we use 450bm we would be using the Barnes 250 Ttsx or 275 TSX
The 308 would be using a 180 corelokt round nose.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Driven2tri24 said:


> The 308 would be using a 180 corelokt round nose.


 exactly what I killed my first with.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

I would use the gun with the better optics if using a scope. Especially if one has better eye relief over the other. 

Seeing a bear and shooting it the first time is exciting for a kid (or an adult for that matter). Sometimes little things like being able to find the animal and kill zone in the scope effeciently can be an issue. Go with the gun that they will handle with the most ease. Both guns will kill them just as dead with no issue.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

What style of hunting are you doing?


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Ah, nevermind it's right in the title lol


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## U.P.Grouse Chaser (Dec 27, 2018)

Luv2hunteup said:


> Take out the lungs they won’t go far. Broadside with onside leg forward will get it done. There are all kinds of images online to look at. No quartering too Or frontal shots should be attempted!


I am curious as the no quartering to shot. The only bear i've killed in my life was taken with a quartering to shot . I was shooting 150 gr Nosler partitions out of my 270. I hit it on the point of the left front shoulder and found the bullet in the right rear ham. It ran 30 yards and flopped over . it was a 200 lb boar. 
Is a quartering to shot typically a low percentage shot on a bear? I have limited bear hunting experience. Just want know for the future as i'm sitting on 5 points in the carney area


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

The Scope and Rifle are the same bolt action Savage for him. I have both the 308 and 450B barrels for it. The scope is 3-9x40 V-Brite(red dot in center)Vortex. Had 1-4 V-brite on it on it but this one had better low light capability. 4" of eye relief. Only thing thing thats negative about the 450 is it has a brake on it. so Recoil is about the same, but the 450 will require wearing the Amplified hearing protection the whole time hunting..


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## U.P.Grouse Chaser (Dec 27, 2018)

The 450 should put a bigger hole in the bear and leave a better blood trail if tracking is required. Less likely to plug with fat and quit bleeding


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## yearcher (May 22, 2010)

We’re definitely not experts but my wife has shot her last two bears with a .308 and 120 GR managed recoil loads. Neither bear went over 30 yds. Both lung shots.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

U.P.Grouse Chaser said:


> I am curious as the no quartering to shot. The only bear i've killed in my life was taken with a quartering to shot . I was shooting 150 gr Nosler partitions out of my 270. I hit it on the point of the left front shoulder and found the bullet in the right rear ham. It ran 30 yards and flopped over . it was a 200 lb boar.
> Is a quartering to shot typically a low percentage shot on a bear? I have limited bear hunting experience. Just want know for the future as i'm sitting on 5 points in the carney area


Quartering to shots have a lower rate of recovery than broadside or quartering away shot. When hunting over bait you will get the shot angle you need most of the time. Set up bait so it’s hard for bear to approach without offering a broadside shot.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Luv2hunteup said:


> Quartering to shots have a lower rate of recovery than broadside or quartering away shot. When hunting over bait you will get the shot angle you need most of the time. Set up bait so it’s hard for bear to approach without offering a broadside shot.


Most of the time they'll offer a good broadside shot, yes. Then again probably 25% of my bear sightings have been pretty quick... not sure if they know something is up or what but they come in, turn and leave. Most hunters proficient with a rifle will get a solid shot off pretty quick and yeah I'd take pretty much whatever shot would allow me to get into the lungs, including quartering to me. Only with the appropriate rifle though...

My mom drew a tag years ago. She had 1 bear come in. She didn't get a shot. My dad was sitting with her and said he could have easily killed it at least once. She was not as experienced and knew her limit. Never got another chance.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

I think this is why I need to know that whatever shot he takes does enough damage to allow a second shot or at least gush blood so we don't lose it.
I'm pretty sure a 180 gr 308 would be better penetrator but th e450 would do more immediate damage..


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

You are over thinking this....


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## mmac1318 (Feb 5, 2007)

I am having the same dilemma except I am thinking about using my 06 instead of the.308. Obviously a ton of bears have been killed with the 308 so you know it will get the job done. The 450bm is going to make a bigger entrance hole and probably with the Barnes bullet you'll get a pass through. I don't have any experience with that Barnes but have heard good things. I'm considering the HSM hard cast to make sure there are 2 holes. But I waiver back and forth I guess in reality there both going to kill quickly if in the right spot, dead is dead so at that point its just a matter of comfort. Good luck to your boys.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

I wouldn't even worry about blood difference in the 2 calibers.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

I agree I’m probably overthinking it. Just want the highest odds in my kids favor for a successful and pleasantly memorable outcome, rather than him making a less than perfect shot and having the outfitters tell him they couldnt find it..


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

New vs tried and true.


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

U.P.Grouse Chaser said:


> I was shooting 150 gr Nosler partitions out of my 270.


'splains everything. Take any quartering shot you want with that load.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

Tilden Hunter said:


> 'splains everything. Take any quartering shot you want with that load.


I do have a 270 barrel as well for his gun as well..lol

Which of the two loads do you think would give the kid a better chance for success on a less than perfect shot? the 308win 180 SP RN or the 450bm 250TTSX??


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## U.P.Grouse Chaser (Dec 27, 2018)

I think Tilden Hunter was commenting on the choice of bullet rather than caliber. I used the .270 because that's what i owned at the time. I've since purchased other rifles. I chose 150 gr Nosler partitions because they hold together and penetrate. i didn't think the 130 gr ballistic tips that i use for whitetail would get the job done. 
With your choices I would think 450 would have the advantage due to the Barnes bullet and its tougher construction . Put a 180 gr TSX in the 308 and they would be on equal footing imo.
I don't know how old your sons are but if they are younger I wouldn't have them take the shot unless it was perfect. I made my daughter pass on a monster 8 point during a youth hunt it was standing broadside at 250 yards . The equipment she was using was more than up to the task but her abilities as a shooter weren't . We tried to stalk closer and blew the stalk. Yes she was disappointed as was I but I think her disappointment would have run a whole lot deeper if she put a bullet in the buck and lost it.
I asked my question yesterday because i was truly suprised to find out that a quartering towards shot on a bear has a lower recovery rate. I guess that makes sense as the bear i shot died at the edge of my sight . I would have had a hard time finding him had he went much further as there wasn't any blood.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

If you really can't choose just go at the bear, both guns blazin Rambo style.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

I guess I'd resist a strong quartering shot that puts a bullet through the guts on part of its journey. Like keeping that meat as fresh as possible. But if you don't have another shot and it's a big bear I guess whatever.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

shaffe48b said:


> I guess I'd resist a strong quartering shot that puts a bullet through the guts on part of its journey. Like keeping that meat as fresh as possible. But if you don't have another shot and it's a big bear I guess whatever.


Absolutely. And bear seems to spoil fast anyway.

I've heard Maine bear dont taste very good... true or false? Maybe just the ones along the coast?


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

I'll probably go with 450BM and the 250TTSX's for him as it's already on the gun and zeroed. 
I'm bringing my 308 pump in case either of my son's have a mishap which might put their zero in question like dropping their gun etc..


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

I'm also bringing my crossbow and may use that if one of them need my gun or I feel froggy and want to try using it..lol


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Like I said, Rambo LOL

Great idea to have the backup!


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

sureshot006 said:


> I've heard Maine bear dont taste very good... true or false? Maybe just the ones along the coast?


I hope to find out..
I've had black bear taken by friends from CO and SC.. The CO one was good, the SC one was horrible. My speculation was their terrain and diet. The SC was taken near Dismal Swamp..


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Driven2tri24 said:


> I hope to find out..
> I've had black bear taken by friends from CO and SC.. The CO one was good, the SC one was horrible. My speculation was their terrain and diet. The SC was taken near Dismal Swamp..


Ya diet is what I would think too. My bears have been on a diet of donuts so they are delicious lol


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

Driven2tri24 said:


> I do have a 270 barrel as well for his gun as well..lol
> 
> Which of the two loads do you think would give the kid a better chance for success on a less than perfect shot? the 308win 180 SP RN or the 450bm 250TTSX??


My money would be on the 308 180 gr., but that's what I know. I can only speculate about 450 BM & 250.


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## steelers fan (Dec 5, 2004)

I shot my 1st bear with a savage 99, .308 with a 180 gr sp.. the bear went 40 yds..


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

I always wanted a 99 in 308, but was stuck in my world of 444 Marlins during my levergun years..now I'm playing around with a Rem 7600 Pump and so far I really like how fast it handles for off-hand shooting. I replaced an AR-15 in 350 Legend with the 308 Pump as my primary coyote calling rifle this fall.. I think it will be the best blend of a fast pointing shotgun without their inherent range limitations. Planning on working up some 110 Vmaxes or 125TNT's as soon a s I get home from Maine for this season. I honestly liked the great groups from the AR/350 Legend, but hated the way it handled/felt on my lap for calling..


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## Stubee (May 26, 2010)

Driven2tri24 said:


> I always wanted a 99 in 308, but was stuck in my world of 444 Marlins during my levergun years..now I'm playing around with a Rem 7600 Pump and so far I really like how fast it handles for off-hand shooting. I replaced an AR-15 in 350 Legend with the 308 Pump as my primary coyote calling rifle this fall.. I think it will be the best blend of a fast pointing shotgun without their inherent range limitations. Planning on working up some 110 Vmaxes or 125TNT's as soon a s I get home from Maine for this season. I honestly liked the great groups from the AR/350 Legend, but hated the way it handled/felt on my lap for calling..


I don’t handload but a friend worked up a pressure series for my Remington 700 .30-06 using the Hornady 110 PSP as a potential coyote load, the standard bullet, not V-Max. The best powder wt gave an honest 0.5” 5-shot group at 100 yards on sandbags. Best that trusty deer rifle has ever shot!


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Stubee said:


> I don’t handload but a friend worked up a pressure series for my Remington 700 .30-06 using the Hornady 110 PSP as a potential coyote load, the standard bullet, not V-Max. The best powder wt gave an honest 0.5” 5-shot group at 100 yards on sandbags. Best that trusty deer rifle has ever shot!


Lol whats he want to do? Split em in half?!


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

ah nm. The psp would kinda hold together. The vmax would blow a giant hole in a yote.


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## LTH (Nov 14, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> exactly what I killed my first with.


Exactly what I killed my first two with. Short tracking job and both pass through's.


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## CaptainNorthwood (Jan 3, 2006)

I would go middle of the middle for your sons. It’s probably the easiest way to think about it for your sons. I do the same thing. The bear I shot last fall went 10 yards tops.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

CaptainNorthwood said:


> I would go middle of the middle for your sons. It’s probably the easiest way to think about it for your sons. I do the same thing. The bear I shot last fall went 10 yards tops.


Thats my game plan for my 14 y/o. With his choice of a 450bm and the barnes 250ttsx I think it will be easy to track with 2x1” holes..


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## Hear fishy fishy (Feb 9, 2013)

http://www.bear-hunting.com/2019/9/5-tips-for-shot-placement-on-bear-podcast

They have a video toward the bottom of the article might be good to watch.


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

Good link.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

It is a good one. We’ve spent some time looking at these and we are in the double lung camp as well.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

Leaving Saturday... Both kids are pumped and watching bear kill shots all day on their phones..lol
It’s funny how this world has changed from when I was a kid..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## slimpickins (Oct 6, 2016)

Driven2tri24 said:


> Leaving Saturday... Both kids are pumped and watching bear kill shots all day on their phones..lol
> It’s funny how this world has changed from when I was a kid..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Me and my son are also heading to Maine this Saturday. Good luck to you guys.

Sent from my moto z4 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Driven2tri24 said:


> My 2 sons & I are heading to Maine on Black Bear hunt in 2 weeks. For those who have shot bear with either or similar, which of the 2 loads would be better?
> -450BM w/Barnes 250TTSX or 275TSX
> -308 Win w 180gr Rem Core Lokt Round Nose Soft Points


Both are fine. Which ever you shoot best is the one to use. The .308 probably kicks less. Better at longer range but all in all, IMO, I'd use the .308. I've killed bears with a 12 Ga using slugs. Big hole in no exit on the bears I killed. Didn't kill them any better than a .308 did. Just made a bigger hole. Bears are easy to kill. Much easier than a whitetail. Hit them low to mid body behind the leg/shoulder area and you got a dead bear.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)

My youngest got it done on a small bear the last night of our hunt. He used the 308 instead of his 450 after wearing ear muffs for 4 days of 7hr sits.
Hit it in the chest with a 180SP and left 2” exit out back end.
My ears thanked his choice...lol
I never got a chance to hunt, but my 25 yo missed 2 really nice bear the first 2 days.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Driven2tri24 said:


> My youngest got it done on a small bear the last night of our hunt. He used the 308 instead of his 450 after wearing ear muffs for 4 days of 7hr sits.
> Hit it in the chest with a 180SP and left 2” exit out back end.
> My ears thanked his choice...lol
> I never got a chance to hunt, but my 25 yo missed 2 really nice bear the first 2 days.



Congrats. Yeah those .308 w 180 sure do put on the permanent hurt fast. Probably the same could be said of any similar round or bullet weight.


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## Driven2tri24 (Feb 12, 2018)




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