# anti hunters



## bvd7 (Oct 22, 2004)

I spend most of my time in this forum, and value the opinion of most of the guys in this forum, so I posted it here.............maybe it should be in a general hunting forum, but here it is......

I went Coyote hunting this past weekend. 
I took my daughter who is Nine, and My son who is six. My daughter wanted to bring a friend so I let her. 

So my wife and I took three kids coyote hunting for the weekend. Leading up to the weekend at school, one of the other girls were giving my daughter and her friend a hard time because they were going coyote hunting. The parents of the third little girl told her not to talk to my daughter because her family were hunters.

This is the first time that I have been confronted with the anitis first hand. The worst part about it is it is effecting my little girl, and not me directly. I told my daughter, and her friend, *(who had an absolute riot coyote hunting by the way!!) *about the cycle of life, and how the predators need food, and the small game is there food. there are so many predators, that there isn't enough food for them and they are starving. I then quoted Brandon's signature. "Critters in the wild do not die of old age. They die from starvation, disease, or predation. 
Of all the predators, man is the kindest." (Thanks Brandon.) I told my daughter, and her friend that anti hunters just do not take the time to become educated about the subject before they make a decision. I also said that these are the type of people that fail to realize a steak is a chunk of meat taken from the flesh of a cow.

We were successful taking one coyote from the population, and the kids had a really good time watching my cousin's dogs track the coyote across several miles of land before we put a shot on it.
















I need some feedback guys, how would you have handled this situation. I have a feeling it is not over yet.
__________________


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## Squints (Oct 21, 2009)

I think you handled it the only way you could have. Nothing you say to the parent is going to change their bullheadedness. So, you just have to hope that the kid took in what you said to her about the cycle of life.


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## Quack Wacker (Dec 20, 2006)

Good work


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## flavo (Aug 30, 2004)

Wait untill girl #3 has her little dog attacked by said coyotes and then offer your services to her family for a small fee:lol::lol:.....Ignorant people.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

I think you did a good job. As mentioned you are not going to change the parents. But ? Maybe the thinking of there little girl. By having your daughter speak and act the way she normally does will show the anti's daughter that what her parents think doesn't bother her. Act like everything is ok, etc.
Little kids will in time question the parents view, they might not be able to hang together, it all depends on how much the anti's daughter tells the parents. Just remember there's only so much you can do, the possibility of loosing friends is always there with young children. Go with the flow and don't make a big deal out of it and the kids will as well.....My opinion anyway.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

i would tell my daughter not to talk the 3rd girl because their family is non-hunters, lol.


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

I have started and canceled this post several times now because I honestly am unprepared for how I would handle it with my own kids. I guess again I am lucky that I live in the area I live. The kids have a more direct connection to the wildlife. My children have been telling their peers about trapping and hunting adventures in "show and tell" time since kindergarten I have to remember to be thankful for that.

I guess I should start off by saying congrats on the coyote if you have it still and can freeze it I am sure one of the trapping guys down in the lower would be happy to help you put the fur up and then you could send it out to have it tanned. How the heck did you kill a yote with two adults and three kids in the field? Most guys cant kill one alone so that is an accomplishment.

I know your daughter and she is a thoughtful kid that puts time into reflecting on things and thinking about them. Those type of kids have an easy time understanding complicated issues like this because they let put time into the critical thinking. I am sure that in her mind she has a firm grasp of reality and the way the natural world actually works. Something to slip into conversations next time when your building duck boxes with the kids or hanging some up would be the research that Delta did on predator management out west in the duck factory. In a nut shell they trapped tracks of land and let others be. The area's where they trapped had better production and nesting success then those that were not trapped. ( probably not a surprise to anyone here). Human's alter and change the natural world for the better with nesting structures and artificial habitats and for the worse through urban sprawl and pollution. Management of predators is just another human response to try and alter the natural world in a positive way after all we already alter it in enough negative ways.

As for dealing with the kids at school. Honestly, when its part of the dynamic of peers and the pressure they exert on each other its no different then our kids being alienated because of the jeans they are wearing or the boy they like. Hopefully we raised them to be strong individuals that can see through it all. I don't believe there is much we can do to intervene or that we should short of moral support.

A parent putting the pressure on their child to ostracize another child because of that parents beliefs though is something *ugly*. Sometimes people don't see the line because they crossed it so long ago its become something they don't even recognize. I don't see much of a difference there then not allowing a child to play with another based on the color there skin, their religion, or political beliefs. Like I said a parent doing this is an ugly thing. All we can do as parents is let our children know that we would never ask that of them and that we think its very sad some parents would. Tell them we hope their friend comes around to realize how great of a person they are and it is a problem that was created by an adult who didn't think though the process and realize they were hurting both our child and their own. 

I wonder how her peers will feel about hunting when she gets to take a trip out west in the fall one of these years with family and friends or takes a Friday off this September to head to the UP for the youth duck hunt. I wonder how they will react when they hear about how cool it was when she gets back. I bet most of them will think its "cool".  

You and Monica are good parents raising good kids. Its unfortunate that other parents don't try nearly as hard. Keep setting a good example and in the long run your kids will be just fine.


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## waxico (Jan 21, 2008)

Some of the writing and thoughtful responses amaze me on this site.
And to think anti hunters believe hunters are un enlightened, under educated cretins...


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## Alexx (Sep 12, 2008)

Nice work


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## bvd7 (Oct 22, 2004)

Thanks for the responses and support. I know you guys put a lot of thought into most of them, then there was the kid's comment. Shi kid just says what we would all like to do............I am glad that it was not only my first thought................... But there is a lot of good advice in this thread, and it was half the reson I decided to share my expiriences. I hope something good comes out of it some how!!!

I will be honest. We were hunting behind some awesome dogs, that tracked this coyote for a long time before it was cut off by my cousin and shot. After rolling three times the yote got back up and ran some more, and his dogs didn't give up. They eventually cornered the wounded animal and allowed a member of the hunting party to finish it off. The coyote was taken home by my nephew on the top of his truck like a deer. He plans to have the hide tanned for personal use.


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## FullBody (Nov 4, 2008)

Seems like you did the best you could BVD. I dont think there is an easy way to handle that situation.


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## duckcommander101 (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm with SK on this, but it probably won't help the situation at all to tell your daughter to quit talking to the child of Antis, in fact it might make it worse.

I am fortunate that as far as I know neither of my sons ever had an issue with any other kids giving them a hard time about hunting.

They may have; but I never heard about it.

I expected sooner or later for them to have an issue as we live in the burbs; but the other kids were either interested to hear about hunting and asked questions or completely indifferent to the whole thing.

All of this may be different than what I have seen because you are talking about young girls in this case; I have no idea how that dynamic works as I have two boys and two younger brothers.


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## eyecatcher (Feb 2, 2004)

I think taking your daughter and her friend on that hunt is very commendable. your response was excellent. I raised four daughters they all went waterfowl hunting with me and two of them are deer hunters as are my grand children, All of my daughters married hunters. I was faced with a similar situation when my third daughter was six years old. I told my daughter that her class mates parents were uninformed and most likely think that the meat they get comes from the grocery store. I would tell your daughter to ask her class mate if they ate meat. if the answer is yes then they are not bright enough to know that farmers raise cattle and chickens for them to eat. My opinion is you just can not fix stupid. a yes answer show just how stupid those people really are.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

yes, please don't take my parenting advice, i come from a small ******* town where anti-hunters hide their affiliation.


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## steelsetter (Dec 14, 2003)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yes, please don't take my parenting advice, i come from a small ******* town where anti-hunters hide their affiliation.


And they dam well should with 1,000's of shotgun toting duck addicts in the place 4 months out of the year:lol:

A nice town in October where you can count more people with camo on than without!

Not to even mention the other hunting groups involved in that area!


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

steelsetter said:


> And they dam well should with 1,000's of shotgun toting duck addicts in the place 4 months out of the year:lol:
> 
> A nice town in October where you can count more people with camo on than without!
> 
> Not to even mention the other hunting groups involved in that area!


and i believe kids are excused on opening day of deer season.


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

There are lots of good responses here, and I don't have much to add, Brad, except perhaps to say that learning to deal with anti-hunters as a kid can only help Carson as she continues to grow up. As kids, our family environment informs the way that we view the world, and we often think that the rest of the world thinks like our own family does. It can be a shock to find out that it doesn't. But when we come into contact with people who hold different, and sometimes contrary views it forces us to confront and examine our own beliefs and begin to learn how to defend them. 

Learning to do this at a young age is going to give Carson an advantage. We as a hunting community are going to be increasingly tested as we head into the future (it's plain that hunting and fishing are on the decline when you look at the number of licenses sold). We are going to need folks with a strong hunting heritage who have experience in dealing with the anti-hunter mentality to pick up the torch and defend our traditions. You and Monica have a great opportunity to turn this situation into a long term advantage. 

As you and others have said, hunting is a tremendous conservation tool. Anti-hunters tend to not understand how the conservation model works, and are likely not out in the environment doing anything to sustain the animals that they claim to be so fond, but are actually ignorant of. Knowing intimately where we as humans fit in the food chain and web of life is also vital: "Food, as you know, plays a large part in a human being's diet. And OF COURSE it's up to you where you get your meat from, (the magic meat box out the back of woolies or wherever) but dont place shame upon a person's right to collect their own meat to be sure its fresh and skip the line at the local outlet."

These things, I believe, give our position a great deal of moral superiority. I know you're already doing this, but continue to make sure Carson and Drake know this stuff, and that they're comfortable with the fact that in the course of life they'll run into people who will try to challenge them on it. When this happens, they'll know what to say! :evilsmile


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> and i believe kids are excused on opening day of deer season.



We don't have school here on November 15th and I am not kidding. We are closed its a holiday. I am on the school board and Its not something that we would change either. Going to camp is part of family time and is valued by the community. 

BTW kid. Anti's hide where I live as well


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## waxico (Jan 21, 2008)

Oh, their there, all right, but only from Memorial Day to Labor Day.
Most of them are liberal teachers, enjoying a 3 month vacation on the taxpayer's dime, so they can spout their gibberish. 

Thank god the Tourons leave when it gets cold.


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## jbo (Oct 12, 2007)

Up here in Alcona county we never had school on Nov 15, we could also be gone up to a week and no one would say anything.

We always called it St Antlers day.


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## TRAILER TRASH (Oct 4, 2006)

Keep your kids informed. Talk to her about why you're family hunts, also explain to her why other kids and their families do not. Sooner or later it will come out on the playground. If the other kids parents are anti's they won't leave it alone, and if your girl can defend your reasons and point of flaws in the "we don't kill poor cute little animals" theory, she will hold her own.

That being said . I'm in the proccess of parenting too, and no expert by any stretch. Kids will have friends and lose friends for LOTS of reasons. From your financial stautus, the church you choose (or not choose), sporting activities etc. They say "water finds its own level". Kids will find other kids with alot of the same likes and dislikes. Don't let it ruin your day

Dan


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## BeWild (Mar 19, 2007)

Shlwego said:


> As you and others have said, hunting is a tremendous conservation tool. Anti-hunters tend to *not understand how the conservation model works*, and are likely not out in the environment doing anything to sustain the animals that they claim to be so fond, but are actually ignorant of.


I really like this quote, minus the ignorant part. Being in my fourth year of school at Northern, I run across anti-hunters almost daily. I am currently in an Environmental Ethics class and let me tell you, it gets heated quick. I tend to shy away from calling anti hunters "uneducated" or "ignorant" because in truth, most of them are not. They have simply devoted most of their time to understanding animal rights and their intrinsic values, and not to understanding the active role that hunting and the hunting community takes in giving back to their sport. 

I know that it's somewhat a PC way of putting it, but we all do live on the planet together, and fighting an opposing side with verbal abuse or by ignoring teh opposing side isn't going to cut it in the anti-hunting debate anymore. I'm merely suggesting that we all take a path similar to bvd7, because it absolutely does work. 

"Persuasion is the subtle art of getting someone to agree with you without them knowing it."

By the way, nice job on getting kids interested in hunting.


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## Quakstakr (Nov 3, 2009)

bvd7, you done well pilgrim.

Brandon and Bewild very impressive thoughts as well IMO.

I once had a college student come to my house trying to recruit support for PETA. I could have taken the, "Get the hell out of here approach." Chose not to, if for no other reason than the entertainment and curiosity of his knowledge. 

Long story short, he left questioning his own stance on the subject at hand.

I once read that anti's are usually, professionals or students between 19 and 35 years of age, and have a desire to stand up for something and choose anti-hunting as there purpose.


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## smets24 (Dec 7, 2004)

as long as we are on the subject. You will always have opposition of some form on any given topic. IE. is it black or white, Democrat or Republican, Chevy or Ford. I think a good way to look at it is people have different opinions. The parents obviously have their opinion and you will have yours. I want praise you for the way you handled it. Will opposition ever end. I doubt it.


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## BeWild (Mar 19, 2007)

For anyone wishing for a good read on the reasons why we hunt and anti hunting, check out Ted Kerasote's Bloodties. A fascinating book. He examines Eskimos who hunt for their sustenance, trophy hunters, anti hunters, and wraps it all up in the reasons why he hunts. Absolutely eye opening.


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## rizutto61 (Jan 7, 2004)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

BeWild said:


> I really like this quote, minus the ignorant part. Being in my fourth year of school at Northern, I run across anti-hunters almost daily. I am currently in an Environmental Ethics class and let me tell you, it gets heated quick. I tend to shy away from calling anti hunters "uneducated" or "ignorant" because in truth, most of them are not. They have simply devoted most of their time to understanding animal rights and their intrinsic values, and not to understanding the active role that hunting and the hunting community takes in giving back to their sport.


 
This is an interesting perspective. I'm sure that it comes from being in an intellectual setting, and I'm glad that there are hunters and conservationists like you in that environment giving a voice to the ethics of hunting. A classroom setting like that will certainly help you sharpen your abilities for those times when you confront knowledgable antis after you graduate. They certainly are out there. In the collegiate setting in which you find yourself, I believe that you are correct in feeling that most of the antis you meet are not "ignorant." I think you will find, however, that the knowlege level of the average anti-hunter in society at large is significantly less than the ones you are currently meeting. 

Many, if not most, of the anti hunters I meet have a sincere belief that if hunting were eliminated, animals would no longer die in a cruel manner. This is obviously dead wrong, but they are so insulated from the natural world that they do not fully comprehend the predator/prey or overbrowse/starvation relationships that bear out the intrinsic cruelty of the laws of nature. Many of them see nothing similar in eating venison and eating beef, or in eating wild ducks and eating chicken. The death involved is not in their face, and meat comes from the grocery store. 

I know that not all antis are like this; that some are vegan warriors who know that nature is cruel, but whose idealogy denies that humans _need_ to be predators, and who seek to ensure that we are all taken out of that role. They are not the ones that we can win over with education, so confronting them is a whole different ballgame. They tend to be the ones who organize and manage the anti-hunting groups and they have proven that they are more than content to use the ignorance of the "hunting is cruel" mentality to their advantage. 

I would bet, however, that the average donator to HSUS, or the average person who signed the dove hunting ban petition does _not _fall into the "vegan warrior" category. These are the people whose ignorance I believe we can confront, and though we may not make hunters out of them, they may be persuaded to accept the role of hunting as an ethical tool for wildlife management and conservation.


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## flavo (Aug 30, 2004)

Main Entry: *ig·no·rant* 
Pronunciation: \&#712;ig-n(&#601;-)r&#601;nt\
Function: _adjective_ 
Date: 14th century
*1 a* *:* destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; _also_ *:* lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> *b* *:* resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>
*2* *:* unaware, uninformed
&#8212; *ig·no·rant·ly* _adverb_ 
&#8212; *ig·no·rant·ness* _noun_ 
*synonyms* ignorant, illiterate, unlettered, untutored, unlearned mean not having knowledge. ignorant may imply a general condition or it may apply to lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing <an _ignorant_ fool> <_ignorant_ of nuclear physics>. illiterate applies to either an absolute or a relative inability to read and write <much of the population is still _illiterate_>. unlettered implies ignorance of the knowledge gained by reading <an allusion meaningless to the _unlettered_>. untutored may imply lack of schooling in the arts and ways of civilization <strange monuments built by an _untutored_ people>. unlearned suggests ignorance of advanced subjects <poetry not for academics but for the _unlearned_ masses>.

Souunds Like any anti I have ever met. 

I attend EMU and let me tell you; campus is a breeding ground for opinionated, ignorant, liberal anti's. They hate hunting, guns, and common sense. And they want your money!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

flavo said:


> ...I attend EMU and let me tell you; campus is a breeding ground for opinionated, ignorant, liberal anti's. They hate hunting, guns, and common sense...


One of the reasons is it's in Ypsi...'nuf said 

Hey this is really nothing new with kids from the city. I'm sure in the UP where Brandon is there are anti's too, but they stay underground because they're in the minority. In the city, these types of people have support. 

I grew up on the very edge of one of the largest cities in Michigan in the late 60's/early 70's, literally one block from the township, where it was still legal back then to hunt and shoot. And about a block away was a large tract of vacant property owned by a developer back then who was just sitting on it, and it was full of game, and also had some gravel pits with fish. My brothers and I, along with several friends, would crack open our single shots, put 'em over our shoulders, and walk the block right past our neighbors houses to that property to hunt, or in the summer with fishing poles to fish. Most of our neighbors back then would say hi, and on our trip back home, would ask how we did. But we had a couple neighbors who would regularly call the cops on us. The cops knew us and our folks well, and would basically say "ya know you guys really should carry those guns in a case", but they'd let us go. But in school, other kids laughed at us and called us the Beverly Hillbillies. Some of their parents told them not to hang around us. Very similar to what you're saying happened. We didn't give a rip...in fact, we loved the attention. I remember our HS biology teacher was a huge hunter, and each fall he would have a contest to see who would bring in the longest pheasant tail feather (back then there were still pheasants ) Usually it was us or one of our friends who would win it. I remember some kids were absolutely fascinated that we got feathers like that...they were clueless, and they turned into clueless adults, having clueless kids. So this is not new. Your kids need to get a tough skin just like we did.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

I tend to not even bother arguing with anti-hunters. They are so set in there ways, you are wasting breath. For them to bring their kids into it just shows how truly out of touch with reality they are. Watching youtube hunting videos everyone just turns into a hunting/anti-hunting argument. No one wins, so why waste the time. 

As far as antis being ignorant, check this quote out from one of the youtube geniuses....

"People hunt predators for fun, a trophy or a head on the wall or to increase their ***** size, I consider that cruel. I have no problem with dudes hunting a cougar who killed a kid or something,*or people who hunt&#65279; fish and chicken* for food to survive, because that's what hunting is all about. Humans, however, abuse it...... "

Anybody ever went chicken hunting before?:lol::lol::lol:


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## BeWild (Mar 19, 2007)

Shlwego said:


> The death involved is not in their face, and meat comes from the grocery store.


Precisely. This is the issue that must be overcome. In the absolute rawest of terms, many anti hunters (and even hunters) are avoiding the issue of death, which is the greatest obstacle that must be conquered in the hunting versus anti hunting debate. Denying another living being life is something that hunters never focus on in their arguments with those who oppose hunting because it is the most difficult idea to describe. 

My argument to most anti hunters:
The taking of another animal's life is the purest thing on this planet. It is the feeling of being there, being in the moment, being connected. The difficulty lies in that you cannot describe this to someone who has never felt that emotion. Until an individual has taken the life of another living being, they absolutely cannot understand their own mortality.

I tend to shy away from arguing the typical arguments that it's "family time" or many of the other standard arguments because they are too easy to blow holes in. If you get right down to the heart of the matter about 95% of the time you can be heard and have your opinion respected. 

(This is the most I have ever written on this whole forum!)


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## Quakstakr (Nov 3, 2009)

just ducky said:


> One of the reasons is it's in Ypsi...'nuf said


It's kinda funny and coincidental. I grew up in Ypsi. We would walk down the street with our shotguns. Even had the police ask if our guns were loaded, then send us on our way. 

So for me, it was similar to your earlier years.

Now there are houses where we hunted, and I'd bet the PD would be drawing weapons if you tried that.


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## duckbuster808 (Sep 9, 2005)

Ieatantlers said:


> "People hunt predators for fun, a trophy or a head on the wall or to increase their ***** size, I consider that cruel. I have no problem with dudes hunting a cougar who killed a kid or something,*or people who hunt&#65279; fish and chicken* for food to survive, because that's what hunting is all about. Humans, however, abuse it...... "
> 
> Anybody ever went chicken hunting before?:lol::lol::lol:


Actually, I hate to say it, but I have hunted Chickens lmao....
My buddies grandpa up north had a large number of his chickens get loose and they became wild and you couldn't ever cach them because they'd run any time you walked towards them. So we decided the one day to go out and have a chicken hunt....Do you know that chickens actually hide in loose brush piles? lol kick a brush pile and out pops a chicken ....I think we killed 17 chickens that day :lol::lol::lol:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Quakstakr said:


> It's kinda funny and coincidental. I grew up in Ypsi. We would walk down the street with our shotguns. Even had the police ask if our guns were loaded, then send us on our way.
> 
> So for me, it was similar to your earlier years.
> 
> Now there are houses where we hunted, and I'd bet the PD would be drawing weapons if you tried that.


Yeah you're right! No different than the area I grew up (edge of East Lansing/Lansing), and the wild land I described is now all houses/condos/apartments. I'm sure if some kid were seen carrying a shotgun over their shoulder there today they would have every swat team for miles around rolling :lol: Course, that was 40 years ago :yikes:...damn I'm old :evilsmile


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## IrishHillsGriffin (Jan 5, 2009)

im a teacher and i get it all the time when i tell the students i hunt. They go you kill animals and i say do you eat meat and then they say yes and i say you kill animals too see. I have no problem with people who dont eat meat that say they dont like hunting but for someone to say they eat meat and hunting is bad that bothers me. 

On the bright side i have had a few girls show me proudly pics of huge deer they have shot.


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## flavo (Aug 30, 2004)

BeWild said:


> Precisely. This is the issue that must be overcome. In the absolute rawest of terms, many anti hunters (and even hunters) are avoiding the issue of death, which is the greatest obstacle that must be conquered in the hunting versus anti hunting debate. Denying another living being life is something that hunters never focus on in their arguments with those who oppose hunting because it is the most difficult idea to describe.
> 
> My argument to most anti hunters:
> The taking of another animal's life is the purest thing on this planet. It is the feeling of being there, being in the moment, being connected. The difficulty lies in that you cannot describe this to someone who has never felt that emotion. Until an individual has taken the life of another living being, they absolutely cannot understand their own mortality.
> ...


This is spot on. Death is hard for a lot of people to deal with. To argue that you hunt for family time is a horrible argument and should never be used when dealing with an anti. We know it as a great benefit of hunting but they see it as cult behavior. It is a falicy and educated antis love to digest falicy's. 
A good argument is the quality of the meat. It is pure and untreated. It is as lean as it gets. The fish we catch and the game we take is hands down healthier than any meat found at Kroger.

If that does not sink in, appeal to their need to be green. Tell them that hunting reduces youre carbon foot print because you do not depend as much on factory farms as they do. Hence you are better than them!:lol::lol::lol:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

flavo said:


> ....A good argument is the quality of the meat. It is pure and untreated. It is as lean as it gets. The fish we catch and the game we take is hands down healthier than any meat found at Kroger...


I use that argument quite often, that it's much leaner and healthier. But I still have a couple friends who laugh at the money and time I spend tagging deer or fish, and they say "I can go to Meijer for 1/3rd that price". So a lot of people just fixate on the cost in this economy. My response to them is that I get a lot more out of my experience than pushing a shopping cart at Meijer. :evilsmile They just don't get that though.


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## bvd7 (Oct 22, 2004)

three pages, this is exactly what I was hoping for, and there is a lot of good advice and thought put forward here. Thanks guys!


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