# Skams or not?



## buckhunter14 (Oct 10, 2007)

Multispeciestamer said:


> Not always. The one I released a few weeks ago in 55-60 degree water *seemed* to be doing just fine. The fact that I never removed the fish from the water for more then a pic could be part of that as well. The other two my buddy released seemed to be just dandy as well.  But most of us dont have options to fish water that cold.


 
Come on... Skams have a extremely low reviving ratio in any water over 55*.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

buckhunter14 said:


> Come on... Skams have a extremely low reviving ratio in any water over 55*.


 Thats up to the perceiver. Its called the 70 degree pledge not the 55 degree pledge.  I think anything under 60 should be fine, if the fish is handled proper.


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

I will agree with tamer on the 50 degree water as long as it wasnt caught on a noodle rod, 4lb test and a 45 minute battle.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

troutguy26 said:


> I will agree with tamer on the 50 degree water as long as it wasnt caught on a noodle rod, 4lb test and a 45 minute battle.


 That would be part of the handling lol.


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## Speyday (Oct 1, 2004)

The only thing that has me scratching my head is your account of the DNR stating they are ruining the trout population. Did DNR biologist actually say that? Cause thats a wild statement. Now, Im not asking you directly Rad Fish....but Im asking them to explain "HOW". 

HOW does a steelhead ruin the trout population. Somebody please explain that and give me the source. 

We'd better go tell the WILD fish in world-class rivers like the rogue and deschutes that their steelhead are ruining the rainbows and dollies and brookies and redsides and summer-run native steelies have been doing it wrong for 12,000 years. Or countless other rivers in WA; or rivers in BC. or CA.

Now the most important thing? Hey Those fish are *awesome* and Im jealous. Beautiful catch, congrats !!!!!!



RAD FISH said:


> :: Well from that 1st pic. and your location on your profile its obvious witch river you are talk'n about. The fact that you don't know anyone that has caught them or even seen them is strange. Prolly cause no one was look'n for them to be there. There are summer runs in that river every year some more then others and some way more then others like this year. When the lake flipped a few weeks ago and stayed cooled at the lake shore for almost a week alot of Scams stayed up the Grand system ( the ladder was rock'n ). About ten or so years ago we had a similar big stray run and the DNR closed the ladder at 6st.. I happened to be there when they closed it and asked what for and he said there is a rare strain of steelhead that are running the $^#*@ ( river you are talk'n about ) and destroying the trout population. That is not the only trib. of the Grand, river or creek with fish-able numbers in it. THANK YOU INDIANA!
> 
> 
> 
> :: Not fool proof but if the dorsal fin is all deformed it is a skam. Caused by the cage that is on top of the pen they are raised in to keep the birds from snatching them up. There are a few of other ways to tell them apart but all of them have deformed dorsal's.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Speyday said:


> The only thing that has me scratching my head is your account of the DNR stating they are ruining the trout population. Did DNR biologist actually say that? Cause thats a wild statement. Now, Im not asking you directly Rad Fish....but Im asking them to explain "HOW".
> 
> HOW does a steelhead ruin the trout population. Somebody please explain that and give me the source.
> 
> ...


The difference is in those rivers they are all natives... Geology and such coming together and making a conducive environment for them. Not so much here in Michigan....

P.S. Just because a fish swims away does NOT mean it survives.... lot's of em rolling along the bottom... or stuck in the logs.....D E A D !...


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## Old Whaler (Sep 11, 2010)

http://michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10364_53405-217036--,00.html

*Here's something that seems to show the MIDNR is afraid of interbreeding... *

"We didn't want them to breed with our standing stock because of potential negative impacts," explained DNRE fisheries researcher Jory Jonas.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Interbreeding has had no effect out west in their natural range. Skams tend to spawn earlier than spring run fish, as do Umpqua, Rogue, Siletz and other summer run strains.... Another case of over thinking the situation?.......


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## SteelieSpin (Jun 18, 2010)

There are several posts and comments in this thread that I think are either untrue or not explained properly, so I'd like to try and clear things up. I could talk a lot about this topic, and would by happy to.



> Definately a catch and keep species.


All steelhead, regardless of strain, are of the same species.



> About ten or so years ago we had a similar big stray run and the DNR closed the ladder at 6st.. I happened to be there when they closed it and asked what for and he said there is a rare strain of steelhead that are running the $^#*@ ( river you are talk'n about ) and destroying the trout population. That is not the only trib. of the Grand, river or creek with fish-able numbers in it.


I'd be surprised if DNR actually said that the steelhead were destroying the trout populations... I guess it's possible. But as later posts have gotten at, I think the major concern might have been that Skamania steelhead would reproduce with wild runs that have developed in several tribs to the Grand River, not just the trib where those fish that thread starter caught his. I think people tend to misinterpret any wild born fish as having "stronger" genetics, because this is not always the case. The problem is that generations of selection of traits that support wild runs particular to an specific area risk being diluted. 

Other posters have described that these fish were most likely strays from either the St. Joe or Manistee Rivers where Skamanias are stocked. The trait that Skamania often stray is thus a good example of the perceived risk. Most naturally reproducing populations of steelhead exhibit strong fidelity to particular tributaries, and there is the risk of diluting this trait if allowed to spawn with Skamanias.



> Interbreeding has had no effect out west in their natural range.


Actually, one of the major concerns out west _is_ the interbreeding of stocked fish with wild fish. All steelhead stocked out west have their adipose fin clipped, and often the regulations allow only for the harvest of stocked fish as an attempt to limit the amount of reproduction of wild fish with stocked fish. Their have been several studies published showing large decreases in genetic fitness of steelhead after only 2-3 generations of this kind of interbreeding.

I would also like to add that all the broodstock of stocked Little Manistee strain steelhead are of naturally produced origin. This is not the case, however, for Skamania steelhead. What this means is that the negative risks of interbreeding of stocked LM strain fish with wild populations are MUCH lower than the risk associated with Skamanias, as the genetic composition of LM strain stocked fish is so much closer.



> My favorite corrupted fish is the Pinook. Both the mom and dad were stocked fish.


This is simply not true. A pinook is the resulting offspring of a pink salmon and a Chinook salmon. There are absolutely no pink salmon stocked in the Great Lakes. Pinook salmon are sterile, so they don't reproduce.


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## Speyday (Oct 1, 2004)

SteelieSpin,

A great post. Its a hijack but a lively thread:
_
"This is simply not true. A pinook is the resulting offspring of a pink salmon and a Chinook salmon. There are absolutely no pink salmon stocked in the Great Lakes. Pinook salmon are sterile, so they don't reproduce." _


Hold on, now......Pink Salmon WERE stocked in the great lakes; it just wasnt intenionally done. 

Pink Salmon aren't native fish. And whether the Pinook is sterile or not wasn't my piont. My point is that 2 stocked fish mix can and have and make a cool 3rd type of fish that I like. They are great fish. Not a lot of em down here, but great fish.

I had a big long rambling post earlier and thought I was just getting too gabby so I deleted it because people might think me a loud mouthed thread hijacker. But here I go again, keeping thoughts in chunks.

My bottom line opinion is this: I_f a stocked skam and a wild little manistee strain violate the windows of mating season, and wind up breeding together, and their offspring began to thrive..........why would that be bad? _ Theres not the kind of risk we have here vs. the risk out west.


Heck......It isn't bad "IF" the steelhead first planted were of different strais in the little M bred and made the strain that is considered so sacred and holy today. _(Does anyone know if there was only one strain originally planted in the little M? )-_--- is the little M strain possibly a product that was the result of a corrupted love affair by 2 (or more?!?!?) different strains.

Heres a point, more to the DNR or people scared of corruption: 
I fish the Catt out in NY. They have about 35% of their fish wild. And they are great. I know a specific time of year where those fish usually run and plan my outings around them because of all the thousands of fish in there from Setp thru May, theres a window of time where they show up and are phenomenal to catch. In the Catt, you can see by thye NYDEC data they have stocked skamania, Chambers creek, little m fish, and if i recall, a migratory shasta fish thats more anadromous than potadramous


The point..... All are distinct and identifiably different. But theres this favorite fourth fish. The franken-fish. I really hope these fish aren't sterile cause they are magnificent. And they aren't wild skams. We thought they were ----and have wasted a ton of hours with a couple of exploratory trips in the summer with a thermometer in the water all the time, getting readings well below 70F and to prove out our theory---- and caught nothing but bass. (rats !!!)

Today, there is no run of skams to speak of in the catt. but during the huge el nino events of 98,99 there was an abundance; or so im told. They then got some overflow from the stocking efforts of the salmon river. But..I didn't start fishing the catt till 2000.

The Ganaraska strain, stocked pretty readily in WI........ is an awesome fish...small but really great fighters.............but its origins were from planting in Ontario. So, like the little M fish......I wonder who those original parent strain(s) might have been? Does anyone know? Was there ever more than 1 strain stocked there?

( I can smell REG finding this post a mile away. :^) He knows a ton more about the details than my abstract knowledge. I get really bored pouring through stocking data.)

Another example to the DNR that would say letting fish figure it out on their own isn't that dangeourus.

Lake superior stocked all kinds of fish, including summer run strains. 
They kind of did it, and watched what would happen. They had a BAD recession and basically stopped managing fish, and private citizens sort of took over and just focused on habitat.

Now, for many years, they have done NO stocking/planting. Yet, there are distinct fish that run fresh from the lake in May, in August, and again in late october/november. Like was said, fish certainly did "stray" and wander and get jiggy with it on the redd. And I think its awesome. I haven't been up there for a while, but will be visiting it this fall. But, I digress.

Yep, its certainly a risk that skamanias stray. thats a good point. Makes it tough to measure where the publics $$ are winding up.

And you absolutely are right about the concern about stocked/wild mixing out west. Wild fish drum-beaters take great pride in showing off bonked hatchery fish.
But in a way, I think its different vs. here. Why?

I guess since they are worried about screwing up NATIVE fish, they have wayyyy more at risk then we do here, since all of our silver fish are an experiment. Know what I mean? 

The only thing native that we could/should worry about screwing up were 1. Grayling and 2. Lake Trout. 
Too late on both, unfortunately, eh?
Your point about risk is something I hadn't thought about. Maybe its a politics of managemetn concern. Like , they couldnt predict runs as well if they let skams do their thing.
And yep, you are also right on about any little m fish thats caught is an F1 fish, while skams unfortunately are an F2 right out of the box since they were inbread when still up in Washougal. Theres a sobering but great write up about Bill McMillans heartbreak in Trey Combs "Fly fishing for Steelhead". Have you checked that out?

But from a funding/prgram management standpoint, the dNR lets em mix---- they begin lose control, cant study as easily and thus lose control of the $$$? Maybe. Interesting. 





SteelieSpin said:


> There are several posts and comments in this thread that I think are either untrue or not explained properly, so I'd like to try and clear things up. I could talk a lot about this topic, and would by happy to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## StonedFly (Feb 24, 2012)

When I fished the river we are referring to a couple weeks ago I counted 4 dead skams scattered on the banks below the run that was holding fish. I decided not to fish em till conditions changed for the better. But Im a catch and release kind of guy.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

SteelieSpin said:


> There are several posts and comments in this thread that I think are either untrue or not explained properly,
> 
> All steelhead, regardless of strain, are of the same species.
> 
> ...


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## SteelieSpin (Jun 18, 2010)

> Are you saying that that Skamania do not naturally re-produce!... that would be and is wrong.


No, I'm not saying that at all. Please reread what I wrote. My point is that the Little Manistee strain is much more established, natural reproduction is phenomenal, and this strain has proven it's generational robustness. The Skamania strain hasn't. But hell yeah, I love the way Skamania fight and that I can wet wade and catch 'em! Physical fitness and genetic fitness, however, are not necessarily related.



> Hold on, now......Pink Salmon WERE stocked in the great lakes; it just wasnt intenionally done.


Well, I can't seem to find the post that originally contained that sentence about Pinooks, but it said that "mom and dad were stocked fish". In this historic sense, yes, obviously their ancestors in the Great Lakes were stocked fish, but for any Pinook caught today that is not true. My guess is that any river that supports Pinook production also supports the reproduction of Chinooks, and likely _neither _mom and dad were stocked fish. Just a guess, though.



> Sub-species develope to occommodate traits needed to survive in / under certain conditions, the inter breeding of one stray will not be detrimental to the Specie, in fact it helps. The Gentics remain the same regardless of what river the Maternal or Paternal Genes come from. The developement of traits takes thousands of years...


You're correct, but I think your time frame is too large. I think our Great Lakes steelhead managers are acknowleding work such as the following, so please consider reading at least the abstract of this review paper:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0165783693900389

This understanding is not new. To quote a portion, "Straying between hatcheries and spawning grounds gives cause for concern because there is evidence that the offspring of hatchery-produced salmon may be less viable than those from local wild fish. The impact of straying on local gene pools depends not only on the prevalence of straying but on the degree of assortative mating and survival differential between populations." - Thomas Quinn

Dr. Quinn is a heavy-hitter in Pacific northwest salmonid fisheries, as well as global fisheries. Here's his website if you need proof: http://fish.washington.edu/people/tquinn/ I actually tried to apply in his lab for a Master's four years ago, but never heard back


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

The Skamania strain is NOT a cross/hybrid. It is a naturally occuring strain from the Washugul River, Skamania hatchery, Skamania Washington. The strain is far longer lived than our Manistee Strain that has "evolved" over the last 100 years plus/minus. How is a strain that is roughly 100 years old better lineage than the Skamania that is thousands of years lineage. Do you have any "evidence'' that no strays enter the Lil M!... I think not. Skamania's occur now in most streams w/ proper habitat, (Temps) and have never been planted in them, such as the Betsie, Platte, Etc. Etc.

I also catch some of the other strains that were tried in Michigan back some years, football shaped, short stout, Umpqua & Siletz I believe.


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## Speyday (Oct 1, 2004)

Steelie spin:

Sorry, I deleted my post thinking it was a bad hijack, too long, and nobody cared. But we have ourselves a discussion here. ( sorry bout that. )

No question that quinn is the man. And so is Seelbach out here.
My point is that everyone and these reports worry that strays may make a less viable fish if mixed with well established wild ones. I agree its had bad effect out there.

But if in the midwest, fish strains overlap/stray and bump into each other and mate in the test tube lab that is _midwest _steelhead...(I mentioned examples in NY and on the north shore of lake superior.)......if it kind of happens --unmanaged---.....why not let nature/habitat/natural selection figure that out here---like its doing elsewhere in the GLs? These other places have wild spring, summer, and fall running fish. All in the same river. 

I haven't read about any bad steelhead disorders/diseases. Are there any here in MI or the midwest?

Reminds me of back a few years ago---the theory floating around that BKD was some sort of defect of stockies and wild fish cross breeding. It was much later proven that it was a result of inadequate quality of forage base.


Perhaps the pure native fish out west because they are natives and SO pure.... are _more sensitive _than our wild ones, which have genetically adapted to deal with other strains being around. And lower water quality, and bigger swings in water temps, et al.


Mettle:

If I recall; the problem with the hatchery skams was that right out of the gate, when they were first taken wild, bred, and then stocked in the PNW---they took the very first samples of wild adults _all from the same time frame of 1-2 days _of grabbing the broodstock when they started, and subsequent broodstock followed the same darn pattern. I dont have my book handy, but that was what they said ruined stuff.

So the biological clock/photo-period imprinting was limited, and thats where the problems started. They moved the fish to different rivers that had different temp conditions on summer days than the springs of the washougal did---their home turf. Fish activity wasn't lined up with water temps they found themselves in ....and their metabolic preferences. And that got WORSE when they came to the midwest, where our hots are hotter, and colds colder. 

So.........now We complain about skams being super hard to predict, sometimes spaced out and non committal, in their behavior and that limitation is probably due to poor choices way back when. When you add warm water onto an already bad genetic predisposition to calendar, I think thats what gives us that fickle unpredictability.

Most experts on it agree they should have chosen and mixed a more varied broodstock that arrived over many weeks vs. 1-2 days....like was erroneously done at the skamania hatchery on the Washougal.


.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

The reason thought for running early is the spawning ''home'' of these fish is far up stream, and thus can take several months, and may be impossible under certain flows (low) and much more difficult under winter conditions (cold). What you discribe sounds to me like peple thinking far too much.... if the conditions under which those fish were taken for spawn occured iether two weeks prior or after - those fish would certainly of ran at that time, Photo period is tought to be THE determining factor for running, however with a fish several months from spawn, it may have more to do with actual water flows than Temps. or photo period, no one really knows. Fish runs are also never timed all at once, that would surely set the specie up for extinction by environmental factors, thus a wide calender for running occurs as does the actual spawning activity. 

That makes me think that maybe a lil Skam. Genes to get these fish to spawn earlier and avoid high river temps. that seam to be the norm now may be beneficial.... probably me over thinking though.....


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## Catfish keats (Jun 16, 2012)

I noticed of the two skams i caught this year that they seemed to give up earlier than regular steelhead. By the time both the fish were done fighting they were belly up. Could be temps too.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Temps. ... if you caught a Mich. strain in warm water it would give up like that too. Skamania in cold water fight like any other Steelhead.


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## johnny5alive (Jun 11, 2011)

Make sure those "dead" fish werent gutted for eggs and thrown back in when you suspect that they died from release. Ive seen a couple of fish steel and salmon already at the mouths of tribs on the joe and the grand that have been "ripped". Really ticked me off.


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## itchn2fish (Dec 15, 2005)

Just to be clear, The St Mary's is THE ONLY stream known to produce Pinooks, not anywhere else, not out west, not Alaska, nowhere else. 
Now, back to our scheduled programming, "Skams or not?"......


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

johnny5alive said:


> Make sure those "dead" fish werent gutted for eggs and thrown back in when you suspect that they died from release. Ive seen a couple of fish steel and salmon already at the mouths of tribs on the joe and the grand that have been "ripped". Really ticked me off.


people would be pretty dymb to be gutting skams just for eggs this time of year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StonedFly (Feb 24, 2012)

Trout King said:


> people would be pretty dymb to be gutting skams just for eggs this time of year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People can be extremely dumb. It wouldnt suprise me any. But I did look at em pretty good. They werent sliced open. Just dead.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

METTLEFISH said:


> The Skamania strain is NOT a cross/hybrid. It is a naturally occuring strain from the Washugul River, Skamania hatchery, Skamania Washington. The strain is far longer lived than our Manistee Strain that has "evolved" over the last 100 years plus/minus. How is a strain that is roughly 100 years old better lineage than the Skamania that is thousands of years lineage. Do you have any "evidence'' that no strays enter the Lil M!... I think not. Skamania's occur now in most streams w/ proper habitat, (Temps) and have never been planted in them, such as the Betsie, Platte, Etc. Etc.
> 
> I also catch some of the other strains that were tried in Michigan back some years, football shaped, short stout, Umpqua & Siletz I believe.


 I have to stop you right there buddy. Skams are a cross of two different strains of summer run steelhead. Native Summer run steelhead out west are and or were an endangered species.


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## Sell (Jan 24, 2002)

METTLEFISH said:


> The Skamania strain is NOT a cross/hybrid. It is a naturally occuring strain from the Washugul River, Skamania hatchery, Skamania Washington. The strain is far longer lived than our Manistee Strain that has "evolved" over the last 100 years plus/minus. How is a strain that is roughly 100 years old better lineage than the Skamania that is thousands of years lineage. Do you have any "evidence'' that no strays enter the Lil M!... I think not. Skamania's occur now in most streams w/ proper habitat, (Temps) and have never been planted in them, such as the Betsie, Platte, Etc. Etc.


Got that right METTLEFISH


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> Skams are a cross of two different strains of summer run steelhead.


Hate to tell you guys but the Tamer is right. I posted about that a long time a go on here. The genius at the Skamania Hatchery in Washington crossed the Washougal and Klickitat strains of steelhead to create the super skamania strain steelhead. They just didn't pick a summer steelhead strain and use that. They were more problems with the other narutally occurring summer steelhead strains than with the skamania strain when used in the Great Lakes.. The Rouge, Siletz or Umpqua strains already gave the MI DNR a bad perception of summer run steelhead altogether...

That's it for todays lesson folks, now back to sleep had a long Wesco coffee and 5 hour energy fueled weekend on the pier. 

Honestly this is a long thread and I didn't read it all just had to add my 2 cents...


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