# recommendation to reduce cub killing



## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Bear tooth survey data shows 16 cubs were killed and actually registered in the U.P. during the 2008 bear season. For sure, nobody intentionally kills a cub. It is basically mis-identification. Wisconsin uses a 42 inch from tip of nose to tip of tail measurement. Any bear measuring less than 42 inches is an illegal bear. Currently, C.O.'s here in Michigan have great difficulty identifying a cub from a runt yearling. No guessing with the 42 inch requirement. Hunters can easily set-up a reference marker at the bait site to measure bear size before taking the shot. 

When the issue of cub killing came up at the Dec. 12, 2009 bear management meeting in St. Ignace...MDNR made their position clear. The Lead Fur Bearer Biologist stated the number of cubs killed is similar to other states and it does not have a significant impact on the state's 
bear numbers. Nobody disputes it. However, MDNR makes a huge mistake ignoring public opinion...and the negative image bear hunting is getting over the cub killing. To do nothing about it is just one more example of bad management. 

The suggestion to adopt the 42 inch measurement has been presented to the NRC, but none of the commissioners expressed support. 

It would be helpful to learn how folks on this site feel.


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## Andy Drumm (Dec 23, 2008)

I think its a great idea !!!


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## Dano73 (Feb 3, 2007)

YUP sounds like a good idea to me


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## hubbarj (Jan 30, 2007)

I think this would make the law very black and white as well as easy to enforce.


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

How would you keep the morons from not just pitching the bear and just keep on hunting?

Griff


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Griffondog, it would not prevent individuals from pitching an illegal bear.
No doubt it has been going on for years. The 42 inch requirement would give C.O.'s a positive identification of an illegal bear and help on the enforcement end. It would also address the problem of check stations in the U.P. registering illegal cubs...as long as they can read a tape measure. There is no excuse for doing nothing.


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

I asked a lab tech this year about the cub bear and yearling bear question and no prosecution. I guess with the tooth they are using to age, has a 2 to 3 % error rate on the difference between cub and yearling bear.
Plus it's not a resource issue with only 16 cubs and if a public outcry starts they can still knock on there doors and issue a ticket now. It is Illegal now to shoot a cub.

This is my consern with making this a big issue. We currently shut down **** and coyote seasons because of the public perception on killing young animals. There have been loopholes put in so we can still take care of problem animals. I don't want this to be the end to those loopholes. After the CFA lands fight we now have to have the owners permission to leave a trap over night now. Even though this is not now going to be enforced it could be in the future.

Griff


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Griffondog, Please call Scott Heather at 517-373-1219. He is the spokesperson for MDNR's Forest, Minerals & Fire Management Division (FMFM). FMFM manages the CFA Program. You need to clear up the statement you posted claiming, "after the CFA lands fight we now have to have the owners permission to leave a trap overnight." It is a false statement. CFA lands are open to hunting, fishing, and trapping.

The general public does not accept cubs being killed. Incidents in the U.P. are producing resentment and it errodes public support for bear hunting in general.

NOTE:

After posting the above information I followed up...and my resource found Griffondog's information is accurate.
Currently, without permission from the CFA landowner trappers are technically required to remove their traps at the end of each day. It takes a legislative act to change a CFA regulation because the regulations are state statutes. However, it appears MDNR has simply revised their interpretation of the existing regulation.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

What is the major concern here? If it is tagged why is there a big deal. We tag button bucks and doe fawns every year and that is part of management. What is the difference if a licensed hunter chose to harvest a small bear. Other than it currently being illegal to take a cub.

Ganzer


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## Barry (Sep 19, 2001)

MERGANZER said:


> What is the major concern here? If it is tagged why is there a big deal. We tag button bucks and doe fawns every year and that is part of management. What is the difference if a licensed hunter chose to harvest a small bear. Other than it currently being illegal to take a cub.
> 
> Ganzer


1. Credibility and hunter ethics. Stories and rumors find there way around and the information is used to either support or discredit hunters rights. Perfect or not, we have a system in place to change the rules when their is a sound basis for doing so. 

2. Economics and hunter opportunity. Personally, I like the "no cub" law because it means that more bear tags will be issued to sustain the same Michigan bear population.


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

MERGANZER said:


> What is the major concern here? If it is tagged why is there a big deal. We tag button bucks and doe fawns every year and that is part of management. What is the difference if a licensed hunter chose to harvest a small bear. Other than it currently being illegal to take a cub. Ganzer


You make a good point. We prefer to make decisions based on scientific evidence. But lets not kid ourselves. Public opinion usually carries more weight. So, we are stuck serving both.

But I would add. You can't compare Whitetail deer management to Black bear management. Two very different species.


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## jackbob42 (Nov 12, 2003)

MERGANZER said:


> What is the major concern here? If it is tagged why is there a big deal. We tag button bucks and doe fawns every year and that is part of management. What is the difference if a licensed hunter chose to harvest a small bear. Other than it currently being illegal to take a cub.
> 
> Ganzer


If you could drive around and see as many bear as you do deer , it wouldn't be an issue.
Whole lot of difference.

I'm for the 42" requirement by the way. LOL


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## Barry (Sep 19, 2001)

Barry said:


> Economics and hunter opportunity. Personally, I like the "no cub" law because it means that more bear tags will be issued to sustain the same Michigan bear population.


I'm no biologist so I don't know for sure if my quote above is true or not. But if it were true, why not have regulations to reward hunters who target adult males? Such a reward will help educate hunters and reduce harvest of cubs and cub producing sows. I'm not suggesting that harvesting a sow should be illegal or less celebrated... I am suggesting that rewarding the harvest of adult males will reduce cub harvest and increase the number of bear tags issued. 

Maybe give an extra bear point to a successful hunter who registers an adult male over a certain age:idea:.................Go ahead! Have fun commenting on the special handling of the genitalia or about buying binoculars before the price goes up


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

If the MDNR would enforce the current cub laws it would solve tons of problems. The law is already in place. Cubs that are registered at MDNR check stations result in no negative impact to the proud hunters. NO TICKETS ARE ISSUED! Just a get your successful hunter patch. Maybe..Maybe if tickets were issued and qualified personel examined your kill...hunters might think twice before pulling the trigger. Ten times the sex and age errors in the UP versus the LP. Ten times more private registration centers. A perfect correlation. In the Baraga BMU for 2008 about one third of the bear were supposed to be age one or less...and don't forget the large number of bear that were not aged...cubs I am sure! 

Keeping the rules out of it....an open question...Why would anyone shoot even a one year old bear? Not enough meat for a meal? And the trophy???????? :help:


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## Andy Drumm (Dec 23, 2008)

I really don't feel that most people go out bear hunting with the intentions of killing a cub .. Many that do kill a cub are just ignorant to the sizes of bear .. There is nothing wrong with not knowing how to judge a bear ,BUT ! we as hunters should do our best to educate ourselves on methods of judging bear size before we draw a tag .. 
There are those who don't care about bear size . I have heard people say "I waited 5 years for a tag , I'm killing a bear! Don't care how big it is!"These are the guys you see parade a dead #80 bear around in the back of a truck for a couple days .. 
Those of us who hunt and do the work to educate ourselves , and harvest the best animals we can , need to push for others to do the same . JMO


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Well put Andy! I think education could go a long way in taking care of this problem. This should be one thing that the bait and hound guys should be working on together. Maybe a few seminars before bear season for first time hunters would be a good start. I't may also be a way to get some bait hunters and hound guys together to shake hands and try to mend some fences. I would think most of the cubs are shot by bait hunters.

The one bad thing the point system has started is the entitlement feeling getting a lisc has started. I've waited 5 years for this and I deserve to shoot a bear.

Griff


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## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Rooster - 

It's a great idea. I think we owe it to the bear population to be responsible sportsmen.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Irishmanusa, thank you for supporting the 42 inch measurement as a way of positive identification of an illegal bear.

Griffondog, I am im full support with your concern to finding common ground between bait hunters and dog hunters. It would benefit bear hunting in Michigan big-time. It sure would be great working together for the sake of the resource for a change.

Much of the conflict between bait hunters and dog hunters is coming from commercial baiting operations. They make the easy to maintain baiting routes along roadways frequented by other users...and when their expectations of exclusive use of a big radius around each bait site falls short...just tell the client its the dog hunters who wrecked their $1,000 hunt. Dog hunters are an easy scape goat for commercial exploiters using public land. Maybe now that there will be some control over the exploiting things will improve. One thing for sure....we all found common ground among the 18 members of the Bear Consultation Team. So maybe there is hope.


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## Sportdog (Oct 6, 2005)

I think that it is great idea. Public perception of the killing of cubs ranks right up there with hound hunting. Then there are those guys that sit on a bait pile and kill BOO BOO. Let's just eliminate hound hunting and bait hunting like they have done in some other states. That will show who the REAL hunters are. I'm sure someone will want that done with longbows only........I guess everyone wants to paint that line that you can't cross at a different point. The famous quote comes to mind...."I have met the enemy, and he is me". We hunters are not going to be happy until every type of hunting is banned and in the end we will have done ourselves in. It's almost 4:45am, I woke up and can't go back to sleep and yes....I'm a little cranky. Sorry for the rant. Have a great day!


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## cultclassics#37 (Feb 7, 2009)

i feel there needs to be a no cub law put into effect, the only problem with this is that we are not allowed (on public land) to place any reference point that would help to determine bear size... i cant use a barrel or a 5 gallon bucket to reference a bears size, i think if i had something to compare the bear to, it would be easier to determine size....
everyone says, put a mark on a tree or tie a ribbon around it, but i hunt from a treestand, so ribbons or tree marks would not help me... i can cut logs 48 inches long, but then iv gotta hope the bear is parallel to the log and that may become a guessing game...
for instance, this past season i had the same bear hitting my bait every night within 15 minutes of me leaving, no matter when i left...we were doing the 2 men in 1 man out method, burning honey, every trick in the book to try to fool this bear..on camera the bear appeared to be 250 plus, probably 300...and this was the consensus of our whole camp except me..i was convinced it was a smaller bear i had passed up on the third night...i argued and argued with them and decided to prove everyone wrong...
the next day we had a massive rain and lightning storm come in, and when i went out to bait, knowing i wasnt hunting that evening, i left a bucket lid behind, leaning on the pile..i went back the next day to find a trail camera picture of the bear standing directly over the lid eating my bait...using the display on my digital camera, i scaled the bucket lid and showed everyone that this bear is 4'-8" long nose to tail, not over 5 foot like everyone was convinced...they all still argued, i shot the bear 2 nights later and i was wrong...it was 4'-9" head to tail and dressed out at 176lbs.......i am happy with the bear, my second, but the only way to scale a bear is to have a point of reference, and that is my arguement. 
another hunter was at the check station when i got there, he was checking a 47lb dressed bear....he swore it was a decent bear through the scope, and said it was an honest mistake....maybe 47lbs is a little small, but he is the one who has to live with that mistake...


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## Andy Drumm (Dec 23, 2008)

Cult , I believe on public land it would still be possible without the use of a barrel .. (I am not a big fan of barrel feeding , but its just my preference) .. Multiple reference points around a bait would help greatly .. Once a bait is established , bear usually use the same paths in and out of a bait site .. Maybe by placing a reference marker on the bears path or a few around your bait site would assist in judging a bears size .. 
Also I like to use hollow stumps as bait sites .. (After all you can only have so much bait at a site) .. By using a stump or log section , say 16" in diameter and maybe 20 " long , you would know that the bear would have to be at least 3 times the diameter of the log in length , or over twice the length of the log if the bear had rolled the log to its side .. 
There are many ways to assist in judging size of bears , and I think if everyone attempted to use some of these process's there would be alot less mis-judging of cubs or yearlings as good bear .. 
Just some of my ideas guys ..


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