# Shoot a doe first - your thoughts?



## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Splitshot post: "almost everyone I have heard on this issue believes we have too many does. I posted an idea I have been thinking about for a long time and the only one that commented on it was Steve. That was when you buy your deer license, it entitles you to shoot a doe first and you have to apply for a buck license. I think it meets the goals of QDM and the guys who want to shoot a deer for meat. Maybe there are a lot of reasons it wouldnt work that I havent thought about, but when we talk about the exchange of ideas and talking about what is best for the herd, I am surprised that no one expressed opposition or even an opinion for that matter. Maybe the lines have been drawn, and new ideas are not allowed. You tell me!"


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

If there is data to prove that it is needed and my experiences in the woods confirmed it, yes. 
If the conditions to any of the above were no, then I would say no.
What ever is in the best interest of the herd. Yes, I see alot more deer, of both sexes nowadays, but I don't think that alone as evidence that there is too many. I enjoy the numbers of deer I see now, but last winter during muzzle loading season when I counted the 20th doe and I had a tag, I felt there was enough left to propagate the species. Oh, already tagged out on bucks by then too, wasn't really wanting to harvest that night, just wanted to be outside and relaxing in the beautiful winter wonderland.


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

I believe this poll should exclude the TB area.

The TB area is already dealing with the effects of too many deer (disease).

Very few that hunt in the TB area want more doe removed....the area is far beyond needing deer removed. 

In fact, it is closer to what I view as a healthy normal population than most of this state!

Otherwise (452) excluded...heck yes! Anything to remove these excess doe!!!

Hunt


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Good point Hunt. Let's assume we're talking about high deer density, non-TB areas.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

this especially true of areas that year after year continually have left over private land antlerless permits, ie. so. mi.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

I didn't see an option of shooting 2 does first!

Seriously, I'd be very supportive of doing a demonstration area within which your first deer must be a doe. I think now would be a good time for the DNR/NRC to show some leadership and mandate such an experiment. 

I think an ideal candidate would be Washtenaw County, which has a rather obvious over-abundance of deer, coupled with a relatively high human population. Though a number of hunters wouldn't be happy, I think that overall hunter opposition would be lesser there than many other areas, where a riot might ensue over such an experiment.


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

FarmLegend,

I disagree with you.

The "doe first" test area should be the Gladwin area.

 

Hunt


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Split,

Anything that will remove these excess doe will be a step in the right direction.

I see that you might lean towards this as a neat idea.

What will you say to all the hunters who jump on you exclaiming that it is their right to shoot a buck because they don't see a need to kill a doe?

Or want to know why you think there are too many doe, because they don't see that many and DNR numbers can't be trusted?

You're right, it will get sticky, just like mandatory antler restrictions were.

People like to shoot bucks, and for many, 1 deer is plenty in the freezer.

If it worked though, I would be happy!

Hunt


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## rb1 (Jun 24, 2002)

You can't eat them antlers! I boiled them all day one time and they
were just as hard as when I started. I think shooting a buck is just an ego thing I used to think that getting a buck was the only way to go. (ego thing) After learning more about deer and deer herds. I have changed my mind. any more when I shoot a buck
it has a decent rack or I don't shoot it. If I want meat I will shoot
a doe and I try to pick out a big one; not a button buck either.
You can tell a doe if you look at it. muzzle, ears. neck. and the way she carries herself. They most generally come in twos and threes; and generally lead doe is biggest and most dominant.
and the ones with her are her offspring; one is doe and one is a buck 7 out of 10 times. RB1


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by farmlegend _
> *I think an ideal candidate would be Washtenaw County *


Washtenaw County in the southern farm belt and Missaukee County in the north woods part of the state. Sorry Huntnut, but I am sure that the buck-doe ratio is more out of wack in Missaukee County than it is in Gladwin.


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## gunrod (Jan 16, 2001)

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=21220

See this thread for my opinion. I would add that maybe your buck licsense only entitles you to a buck of 3pts or more on one side. This should allow some younger bucks to survive to the second season. It would mean low buck numbers the first year but should yield results the second year.

I also agree with shooting bucks being an ego thing furthered by the media. How many magazines have does on the front? 
When is the last ESPN show to show doe hunting?


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## Mags (Apr 10, 2002)

I have no problem taking a doe first, second , and whatever. In the northeast part of Sanilac Co. where we have our property, there are way more does than bucks. Being forced to take a doe first would be a good first step to start bringing the buck/doe ratio more into balance there. It would certainly improve the hunting in the following years. Besides, I'm more interested in the venison itself rather than sex of deer that it came from. 

Rich(Mags)


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## Fisher B (Dec 26, 2000)

I totally agree. there are to many does that the bucks can't get enough food in my hunting area. The only question i have is what if that moster buck walked by you broadside and you didn't have a doe yet. Could you pass up the big buck. Maybe you have to shoot a doe first OR a buck that has at least 3 or 4 points on a side.


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

I havent been able to cast a vote in polls lately, sez Im not logged in or something.

Although I think it is a great idea, I would have voted no because I can see losing flexibility in how I like to hunt. I like to bowhunt and wait for that perfect shot at a doe or buck, which may never present itself in early season and not sure which sex is showing up first. Then during gun season Im looking for the bucks more than the doe. Late in the season, either bow or ML, I figure I can fill the freezer if my luck wasnt good early. Personally, I could accept the change, but I kind of like the current combo system.

Experimental DMUs would be a good idea too, but dealing with multiple DMUs may be an issue. If I shot a doe in Washtenaw, Gladwin or Mecosta, would I have to take a buck in those counties as well or could I then take a buck anywhere in the State?


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Sounds like a sure way to kill more button bucks to me.
L & O


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## quix20 (Jan 14, 2001)

personally, the way i look at it is, i hunt for food first, and for the "challenge" second. 

if a doe walks under my stand and i have a legal permit to take one, then i will, it will put food on my family's table. if a buck walks under first then i will gladly take that too. doesnt matter to me what sex it is as long as i deem it big enough to take i will.

once i get the meat, then i go for the trophy. dont get me wrong, i will take 2 small does if i have the chance, but i wont shoot everything that is brown and moves on four legs out there. my family comes before the trophy does, and if it is going to be a long winter for us food wise then yes i will shoot what i know we can eat. 

usually i am lucky though if i get to shoot at anything. i dont get out much because of the extra curricular things i do (football, and wrestling). 

but as far as too many does goes. i dont know. the guys who hunted the 200 acres next to us last year, shot close to 10 bucks last season, and took pics of something like 18 i think. i saw one of them, and he was a monster. but i dont think i ever saw that many does running around the farm. i saw the same group of 5 two times and that was about it for does.


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## twodogsphil (Apr 16, 2002)

This would take some of the pressure off the younger bucks. Once hunters have dressed out their deer, hauled them into camp or back to their vehicles, and then had them processed (with expenditure of significant cash or time if do their own processing), and put the meat in the freezer; they will be a bit slower pulling the trigger or releasing the string. A doe in the freezer takes the edge off for a lot of hunters.

Now they can shoot a buck but wait--He's a little guy! Antlers?I've got a box full of similar size 6 and 8 point basket racks at home. How far will I have to drag him? Do I need any more venison? Do I want to spend the money or time processing another deer? He's acting nervous, maybe the big guy is in the neighborhood! If I bring this one home, the other half will tell me that season is over! There he goes, oh well, I'll wait for the big guy.


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## rb1 (Jun 24, 2002)

I agree with you twodogsphil; But I don't need the meat to help feed my family with anymore. When I did need it I filled the freezer.
My son has to feed his family now. So the freezer is still full. But he practices QDM his self. Like I said in my other reply, this thread. Any more when I shoot a buck it has a decent rack or I don't shoot it. It doesn't have to be a trophy rack just a decent rack. We go North, Mecosta co, State land. Deer camp lots of fun. Need meat go home one doe a day; Land owners permit you know. RB1


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

I have property in Glennie. We have 80 acres full of deer. Yes I shoot doe's off that property every year since Ive owned it and every year we have seen more and more buck's. The first year we didn't even see a buck and hardly any sign but now ten years later and who knows how many doe's we seen alot of what I consider nice buck's last year. The deer in this area normally do not have huge rack's but still they have some decent head gear.
Maybe if I can ever get ahold of a scanner I will post some pic's.


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## gunrod (Jan 16, 2001)

Splitshot, you are right. I shouldn't assume why people do what they do. I will concede that point. I also want to commend you for committing yourself to a trophy buck. If you hunt like you fish I'm sure you put your time into that endeavor and should be proud to accomplish that goal. That would be the ultimate hunting challenge. But I also think you are the exception rather than the norm.

I won't make the same mistake twice and assume why it is but I think most will agree that there are too many hunters that are shooting spikes and buttons, that won't shoot a doe, rather than trophy hunting. If it wasn't for these people we wouldn't be in this situation. Somehow the notion that shooting does is bad has to be overcome. If a one season, doe only hunt helped with this I would be all for it. But there also has to be a long range plan with regulations for the following year or it would never work.


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## gunrod (Jan 16, 2001)

I see things changing but the problem is that the DNR changes it every year. Until they sit down and come up with some sort of long range plan and stick we will continue to have these debates and problems. It would be a plus if they came up with a 4 or 5 year plan, stuck to it and it failed. It would show me that they are working on the problem in a scientific method and not for political reasons.

As far as hunter feelings changing, I agree completly. It is still going to take some time there but I've seen great strides here.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Here in Southwest Lower Michigan, I have NO reason to shoot a doe first. Being an avid deer hunter and have shot plenty of deer. I know that the big bucks follow other deer. Let the does go to shoot a buck. 

Now, I know some of you are saying EGO EGO EGO, NO, I just want to shoot a nice buck every year, and that is my right. 

BUT, on the other hand I shoot my 2 does a year, and does my dad, brother and hunting partner. 

I am out for bucks, but I like to shoot my DOE at the end of the year to give me a better chance at a nice buck.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

mb, I salute good hunters like you that pursue mature bucks and harvest does. That's my M.O. as well.

In the opinion of many, you may actually have a better chance at a mature buck if you harvest your does ASAP in the early archery season. Generally, the fewer does in the population in proportion to bucks, the more active bucks will be. And mature bucks will make more sign under such conditions, which makes it possible to get clues of their movement; bucks that make no sign are impossible to pattern, making buck hunting a crapshoot.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

That is very true Farmlegend, because there are a two different farms that I hunt that is very hard to hunt because of all the does. I only shoot my two, but are on my managed farms. I know what you are saying that IF the doe herd in a given area is dwon you can find those bucks chasing those few does, and not many. 

The last few years I have to let ten does go by to see one buck, so I do think we need to get some more does out of an area.

Now, let me put this in front of you. For you buck hunters like me. What do you think happens when you shoot that doe, it runs into the swamp you are hunting and now you have possibly bumped your buck that you are hunting. And when you bump the big boy, he will NOT return aound here, because he has other does, and other land to live on. 

I dont like contaminating my woods to shoot does. We slip in and slip out, with NO extra human scent until the RUT is over. 

My 02. What do you think?


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

i think the idea behind earn a buck is to target hunters who refuse to shoot a doe and the ones who are willing to shoot does but still believe it's taboo.

hunters who harvest a doe or multiple does are the exception rather than the rule.

i'll earn my buck at the first oppurtunity that presents itself.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

what do you do when a different P&Y buck than the one you have been hunting wanders by, presents a shot and does the exact same thing? we all can dream can't we. LOL!


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Now I am a very happy hunter if that happens!! 

Jamie I see what you are saying with the hunters that dont want to shoot does, or thinks its horrible. 

I cant even relate to UP hunting except over by Bruce Crossing. I have hunted there a lot, and there are exceptional deer herds up in that area. Friends of mine have 500 acres and they have on video, 17 bucks coming to hay fields this last year. There are also good concentrations of does too. 

But here in Southwest Michigan, we need to take more does. If you dont, then you are making it harder to hunt bucks, like Farmlegend stated in an earlier thread.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

your right, there are also many other positive effects of doe harvest.

The opportunity for harvesting more does provides definite benefits to the overall health of the state's deer herds. When coupled with restraint in harvesting bucks, particularly younger age class bucks (1.5 and 2.5 year classes), harvesting a sufficient number of does can produce the desirable effects of correcting unbalanced sex ratios and helping correct over population. 

Deer populations with balanced sex ratios and a good proportion of mature bucks (3.5+ years old) typically have an earlier breeding period than deer herds with unbalanced sex ratios and a buck population made up primarily of immature animals (less than 3.5 years old). Following many years of heavy buck harvests and insufficient doe harvests, many areas are now faced with sex ratios weighted heavily toward does. These unbalanced sex ratios have numerous negative impacts on the deer herd, the biggest problem being an untimely and drawn out breeding period or "rut." Deer herds with a well-balanced sex ratio (i.e., 1 buck per 1, 2, or 3 does) will generally have an intense and short breeding period, usually lasting 2 to 3 weeks. In these populations, practically all adult does (1.5 years and older) will be bred and a significant portion of doe fawns may also be bred. 

In extremely unbalanced herds, the majority of adult does may not be bred during their first estrous (period of ovulation and sexual receptivity) cycle. This occurs because not enough bucks are available to do the breeding. The does that are not bred during their first cycle will have to breed during their second, third, or even fourth cycle. Some adult does may not be bred at all. This results in deer of the "same age" group being separated by as many as four months. Because many of these deer are born several months later than normal, their growth potential may never be achieved. These deer may require 2 or 3 years to reach similar physical conditions as earlier born deer, and may never equal the earlier born deer. 

A large portion of Michigan currently has deer numbers that exceed the habitat's ability to support the deer in good physical condition. Supplies of quality foods are not available in quantities sufficient to sustain overpopulated herds and the quality foods can literally be eaten out of existence over large expanses of habitat. When these preferred, highly nutritious food items are gone, the habitat cannot support as many deer in good condition as it could have prior to over-browsing by the deer. In some marginal habitats, carrying capacity may be diminished indefinitely. 

Too often, hunters and deer managers confuse quantity of food with quality of food. In the majority of Michigan deer habitats, there is certainly no shortage of greenery that deer may use as food. What most people overlook is that a full stomach does not equate to a nutritious diet. Gross overpopulation will eventually eliminate any chance for a given unit of habitat to natu_rally provide optimum nutrition. Usually, at least as many years are needed for the habitat to recover as were for the deer to over-browse the area. 

In such instances, the nutritional stress on the deer herd creates numerous problems. Bucks are not able to produce their best antlers or heaviest body weights. Does are not able to grow to their potential and do not produce as many fawns as they would in a healthy herd. In addi_tion, fawn survival may be significantly reduced. In these situations, an increase in the doe harvest will promote a healthier deer herd and on some good quality habitats, increases in body weights, antler development, and fawn production will result over a period of years.


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## rb1 (Jun 24, 2002)

Well said Jamie 7117. This what I have been saying 
right along. if We can just get more people to start thinking 
about it. If we could just get it to 40bucks/60does ratio. you would 
start seeing bigger bucks. RB1


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## Sarge (Apr 25, 2000)

I am not buying a Buck license at all this year. I bought one doe lic. for Isabella county and one for clinton. That should do it for me.


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## trapstercarl (Oct 2, 2001)

we manage a 40 acre parcel of swamp land for big deer. we shoot a lot of does(all 3 of my does this year were off this property) and so far this year I have been seeing a lot of bucks (7 different bucks in 1 day ) 2 of them were 200 + pound 4 points and 5 of them were mainframe 6 points that went at least 175+ pounds. I think shooting does is the ticket for big deer. carl


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## flyrod4steelhead (Mar 14, 2002)

I beleive that some area's do need to be thinned out with more taking of Doe's. But then there are area's that don't have that many deer, period. I think that buying a Doe tag, then filling out a permit for a Buck is a great idea. Me and some of the guy's in our club like this idea.


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## Swamphound (Oct 9, 2001)

My question is "How do you do it right?" and "How do you make it happen." My thought is that you would have to approach it by DMU. The DNR would have to set a quota by unit, issuing the number of Buck tags and the number of Doe tags available. It doesn't have to be a lottery for Buck tags like in other states, when a DMU sells out of Buck tags, that's it.

Now how do we implement change. I hate all the talking about it, how do you make something like this happen. I know there are about 750,000 of us in this state that would like a nice set of horns over the fireplace.


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## toots (Dec 8, 2001)

I always like to hunt the whole season. Bow,gun,bow,muzzle loaoder, and then bow. I want to save my meat gathering at least until muzzle loader season. I have time and opportunity on my side and I always hope for the big one. My thoughts on QDM. I have let smaller bucks go in Huron county, only to see them shot in the next wood lot. I will never tell a hunter who has never taken a buck that his spike or fork horn is not a trophy.You can grow your own buck saver by the long slow process of experience in the field. The people I talk to are set against QDM by law. All they feel is the fine is to big and how can you be sure that is 4 on a side? Most gun hunters do not see the deer long enough to say more than horn shoot . Count when it's down. toots


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

I always hear a lot of Kackle about a more "even" Buck/Doe ratio... 1 1/2 yr. old spikes might even have a better RACK if they weren't in competition for food & living space - right? - Deer do re-populate a lot like rabbits & will over-run an area if left unchecked.... If it's your right to shoot a "Big 'Un" go ahead , but wax a baldy & give it away also!!! -- keep those numbers closer to 2:1 & see the wonderful things we all dream of , A big fat propellerhead with his bevy of beauties , along with some of his Bro's!!!!
I don't even have my "best" set of antlers anymore , a greedy controlling ex-girlfriend talked me out of that & all my other gear , I had to start over , and antlers are just an ornament to me....
All the seasons are cool , I agree toots!
Swamphound ,I'm not sure where you are getting these numbers -there are about 750,000 of us - but at least change it to :

"there are about 749,999 of us" 
 Robert


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## halfcore (Nov 11, 2003)

MB,

I go back an forth on this every year myself. I have two pieces of property in SW lower, on is only 10 acres and I know of 1 resident whopper doe and her two offspring...I pass on her to draw bucks in the rut. The other piece I know I have more does moving through, and will take one early (first week or two) then let it cool down prior to the rut, then clear some more out during muzzleloader..


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## Ogre (Mar 21, 2003)

Voted no simply because if I had any deer I would probably kill the only one around. The problem with most QDM'rs is the assumption of too many deer.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Even if earn-a-buck could be successfully managed in MI, like in WI, I believe most areas wouldn't need it.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Shooting a doe first is a way to balance the sex ratio of the deer herd and reduce the number of female deer without discriminating against a majority of hunters. Consider your statement Even if earn-a-buck could be successfully managed in MI, like in WI, I believe most areas wouldn't need it. Does that mean there is no need for balancing the herd in most areas or is this a way of saying youre just for the antler restriction plan that discriminates against most hunters?

If you read what I said, you would understand that kill a doe on your license is not an earn a buck plan in the first place. Some areas are so out of balance that no bucks would be allowed to be shot under the plan until the numbers were sufficiently high enough. To many people in this world make statements that are reflective of many arm chair experts. They only glean what they want from what they read and pass it on to the rest of us like it were factual.

My questions have been straight forward. If the antler restriction plan is a better plan then please explain it to me. If the shoot a doe idea is not scientifically sound, tell me why it isnt, and please avoid statements like; I believe most areas wouldnt need it under the rational that if you were an authority your opinion would count for something.

By the way what Mr. Clute says is not an answer!


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

First we need to understand what QDM is:

Here we go...

What are the essentials of QDM?

Many focus on mandatory AR's and habitat improvement. Hunters and property owners that are for or against QDM use both of these points as there support. Some that don't own land say QDM can't be for them, because they can't practice habitat improvement. Some also say that QDM isn't for them because they don't care for mandatory AR's. But is either a must for an
effective QDM plan? Sure, a QDM plan is enhanced at times by the above two aspects, but is it essential?

QDM is:
1.Adequate buck age structure

2.Populations maintained below the carrying capacity of the land

3.Adequate sex ratios

Notice I did not mention habitat improvement, or mandatory AR's. Mandatory AR's and habitat improvement are great tools, but are not essential to the effective establishment of a QDM plan. The above three though, can not be left out. For example: You can use habitat improvement to raise your property's carrying capacity, but it still boils down to "carrying capacity". Your populations must be maintained below the carrying capacity
of the land in order for your QDM plan to be successful. Regardless of what you do to your land, or public land for that matter, if you follow the proper carrying capacity, you are practicing QDM. Simply, you can practice QDM without habitat improvement, but you can't practice QDM without maintaining your population below the carrying capacity of the land. That's why carrying capacity is essential, but habitat improvement is not.

Also, on mandatory AR's. It doesn't matter how you do it, yearling bucks need to be protected for the successful implementation of a QDM plan. You can have a successful QDM plan without AR's, but you can't have one without adequate buck age structure. This is where it can get kind of sticky. PA recognized, as well as many other parts of the country, that voulantary protection wasn't working, and wouldn't work, especially at a noticable rate, so they developed an effective AR that would protect at least 80% of all yearlings. But is a mandatory AR an essential for QDM? No. Can it be very effective? Yes.

Simply, you can practice QDM without AR's, but you can't practice QDM without the protection of yearling bucks.

Those 3 points above are the essentials for a successful QDM plan. There are many other positive aspects that can be incorporated into your plan, especially the use of habitat improvement. Many other aspects are also a part of the QDMA, including education, cooperation with law enforcement, youth involvement, and stewardship. Habitat improvement is probably the biggest aspect, and it is an awesome tool to help a landowner further enjoy his or her property on an entirely different level, a level I strongly encourage. But regardless of what you do, or don't do, the above 3 essentials have to take place for a QDM plan to be successful.

That is why QDM is effective anywhere in the country, on any type of property. You get the above 3 essentials to take place, and you have an effective QDM plan.

So, the 3 essentials of QDM are:

1. Adequate Buck Age Structure

2. Populations Maintained below the carrying capacity of the land

3. Adequate Sex Ratios

In areas where excessive doe numbers are the norm, and earn a buck program would work great for getting sex ratios in line, if used in especially with a mandatory check in procedure. BUT, we don't need earn-a-buck for the majority of the state.

But, all these points about earn-a-buck, mandatory check-ins, and even a 1 buck license are a mute point as to the fact the DNR will not allow these to enter into any new management equation. The ONLY thing that has been able to be worked on with cooperation with the DNR, and I stress COOPERATION is the subject of AR's, as well as even a little antlerless permit numbers in some areas....but that's all they give us, so that's what we can decide of for right now. We can talk about everything else until we are blue in the face, but AR's are the one thing that the DNR has been open to, and we thank them for that.

If anyone wants to learn more about the process, AR's, or the SDM initiative, feel free to be in Rock on 10/7, or Ontanogon on 10/13 and I'd look forward to meeting you...even if your negative. We just ask that you keep an open mind for about 45 minutes to let the facts soak in, and then fire away your questions.


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