# Can our flocks support a two bird limit in the spring?



## reowen51 (May 11, 2005)

Having hunted multiple states last year I am happy to report that I saw many more birds here in Michigan than I saw in Tenn. Kansas, New Mexico and Arkansas. All those other states have a multiple bird spring season. Last year the D.N.R. went to selling tags over the counter first come first served to hunters that had not applied before the Feb. deadline. I really believe our Michigan Bird population could support a two bird limit and that all tags could be sold by the current hunt number system over the counter.Obviously hunters could only select one set of hunt dates. Any one else have similar or conflicting thoughts?:idea:


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Possibly in some areas. But like the deer population it is not an across the board thing. All you have to do is go to the north country to see that.

To be honest I think that the population has started to drop in my area. 

As far as total over the counter sales my answer is NO.

Turkey hunting is too great a sport to take the chance of ruining it by having no control of the number of hunters in the woods if the all hit the woods on one opening day. If you think that hunter interference is bad now what would it be with hunters all over the place.

The 234 hunt is an over the counter tag if that is what you want.

The licences that were sold over the counter to someone that had not appiled before the deadline were ONLY the ones that were left over from the drawn hunts and not sold. 234 tags were not available to those that had not previously applied in Feb. If my memory serves me right these sales were mandated by the Legislature not a decision to do so by the DNR. Alot of those were in the UP.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Our turkeys are smart enough, when they're hunted day after day after day, to survive anything. Very few people would actually take two turkeys. Not unless they just bushwhacked em or broke the law and grabbed a rifle. 

But the hunt would not survive a two bird limit-allowing two birds to be taken would do just what it's done in every other state out there with more than a 1 bird limit-keep the hunters out there, every day, many right till the end of the season. 

As a result, the birds would be so cagey, so call-shy, and so over-pressured, that we would lose any semblance of a quality hunt we've got left. As it is, allowing people to buy the left-overs over the counter just about ruined the hunt in many areas last spring, most especially our public lands. 

If Michigan had mostly private land, I might go along with that. But, then again, Tennessee IS mostly private land, and where I hunted last spring, it was unbelievable to see all the hunters in the areas where there are turkeys, every single day, many of them trespassing. It was awful, and even though I took a very nice tom, I won't go back. They allow, as of this spring, FIVE turkeys to be harvested in Tennessee...like I said, it won't hurt the birds. It doesn't. It just kills the quality of the hunt.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Interesting observation Linda. Never thought of it that way before. Plenty of birds, but hunting pressure resulting in unkillable birds.

Do you see a 2 bird limit comming ? Regardless of the consequences ?

I mean really, if the DNR can make a buck, the quality of the hunt rarely plays a part in this type of decesion IMO, especially if the Turkey population would/could support the extra tag without drastically hurting the population we have now.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

we can shoot 2 birds now one in fall and spring.


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## jackbob42 (Nov 12, 2003)

Linda G. said:


> ... Very few people would actually take two turkeys. Not unless they just bushwhacked em or broke the law and grabbed a rifle.


Your kidding right?
I called 7 birds to the gun last spring. No bushwhacken , rifles , or broke laws. Would have been more if it wasn't for the loose nut behind the call ! :yikes: 
I know some others on here did also.

The thing that bothered me was , if they didn't sell enough of those early tags , they should have give us guys who paid the application fee the first crack at the extras. Not the guys who didn't even bother to apply.

I think my area could stand a two-bird limit , for awhile.


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## adam bomb (Feb 27, 2006)

i think it should stay the way it is, with the exception of opening the leftovers to those who didnt apply. i think that is B.S.. since its a drawing, not everyone is going to get a license. thats why its a DRAWING. so, the tags shouldnt be handed out to anyone who wants a permit. if they want to do that, why have a drawing at all? might as well just sell em over the counter!...its all about revenue...sickening

as far as not calling/calling in two in a year, i agree and disagree. i could have easily killed more than one turkey last spring using LEGAL hunting tactics. i called a bird in for myself, my buddy eric, and my mother. no bushwacking or rifles. just ALLOT of scouting and proper set up. the previous spring i called up 5 total toms. not to mention all the jakes we let go. all legal tactics. but, i have several private woodlots to hunt, so i can jump around to unpressured birds. the percentages DEFINITELY go down on the same woodlot as the season progresses. plain and simple, they just get smart.


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## FireDoc66 (Oct 9, 2005)

I know in my area (SE Michigan, mainly Hillsdale/Lenawee) it could support a two (2) bird limit. In fact just the other day I heard a conversation between several different Farmers/Landowners commenting on the numbers of flocks in the area and how much they have increased over the past few years. 

Will be interesting to see if this comes down the pipe eventually or not. 

I know in the past I would have liked to have been able to go back out and chase the gobblers again!

Interesting topic though...


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## reowen51 (May 11, 2005)

I know I get really bummed out when my turkey season in less than an hour. That's why I started going out of state to hunt them. I find that pressured birds are more challenging. They are not impossible to harvest though. I also hunt the private ground of Hillsdale and surrounding counties. I actually trophy hunt those toms. If I could just figure out how to measure spurs on live birds at a distance I'd have it made!   
Success is a Decision;
Bob


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Sure, if the prices go up on the tags, which they're going to next spring, then in 2008 you'll see an increase in the bag limit, at least on private lands. Easier to explain the increase by the DNR-"you get more for your money"...

Guys like Reowen and jackbob, who haven't hunted for 30 years and seen how good it WAS, or who hunt only limited, private land that no one else gets access to play right into the DNR's hands. 

To heck with what the guy on public land is going through, or what the guy with the general tag, good for both private and public, has to deal with. 

Sure, there's spots all over this country that you can have birds crawling all over you right till the end of the season...but those spots are rarer and rarer every year, and I do wish people would stop thinking only about how things in the outdoors affect THEM-it's how it affects EVERYBODY that counts. 

I had nothing to complain about last spring in Tennessee, he weighed 23 pounds and came on the 2nd day of the season...but I saw what it's like out there most of the time. Sure, there's a handful of very serious turkey hunters in Tennessee who could have taken multiple toms, but the vast majority of people, well...and that's what would happen here. Heck, it would become like our deer hunt, where thousands of people never even SEE a bird. 

When that happens, you lose hunters, and supporters...again, it's NOT about what YOU have, or, at least, it shouldn't be. Not if you want a future of hunting...


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

> Turkey hunting is too great a sport to take the chance of ruining it by having no control of the number of hunters in the woods if the all hit the woods on one opening day. If you think that hunter interference is bad now what would it be with hunters all over the place.


 

Just think about the guys who apply for the later hunt's. There is still some quality hunting then. A big reason is that guys who hunt early, kill a bird, are done, and get out of the woods. Multiple tags will wreck that. 

A lot of guys new to turkey hunting in the last 5 years are on private land in southern MI have that have big flocks. Very limited pressure and lot's of birds make it seem easy. They have never really experienced all that turkey hunting has to offer. It is a different game on big tracks of land where you can chase a gobbler you heard a 1/2 mile away. Turkey hunting in MI cannot support the same kind of hunting pressure as our white tails and moving in that direction and will ruin it. When populations are out of control on private land, taking hens in the fall is the way to resolve it. That should be the only place for multiple tags.


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## doggk9 (Aug 27, 2006)

If not for the over the counter sales I probably would have never started turkey hunting. I bought my tag over the counter last year 2 days before my season started. I did not know anybody else who hunts turkey so I did not know there was a draw. I hunted all but 2 days of my season and finally got a jake within range on the last evening my tag was good. All in all it was challenging being that I had no guidance and was new to the whole thing. I WILL continue. Next to taking deer with my bow it is one of the greatest experiences I've ever had in the woods.


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## Zeboy (Oct 4, 2002)

The novelty of Turkey hunting wore off for me a long time ago. The first 5 or 6 years I hunted, I was totally addicted to it. After I harvested a number of gobblers it just didn't seem such a big deal anymore.

Where I live, the turkey population is high-to-over abundant. This is Southern Michigan - mostly private land. Right where I live it is mostly small parcels 2 - 10 acres. Many people (myself included) view them as a nuisance.

The last couple years I have gotten a tag and other than a couple of mid day hunts, didn't even go out for them. I can easily afford to purchase a tag. Where I am going with this post is:

My opinion only - I can't see spending $30 (it may actually be more because I believe you may have to also pay a fee when you put in for the drawing) to go harvest a turkey. To me, it just isn't that big a deal. It wouldn't surprise me to see hunter numbers drop off this spring if the proposed increase goes into effect.

I am not trying to offend anyone and I am not trying to bash the DNR for raising rates. I look at myself - I can easily afford it - I hunt damn near everything else, but turkeys just don't do it for me any more. If I feel this way, how many "fringe hunters" with limited funds are going to walk away as well??

Where I am going is - in the Southern part of the state - and in my opinion, they should offer the opportunity to harvest multiple birds. Heck, they can't hardly "give away" fall permits around here, how are they ever going to get $30 for one??? As far as I'm concerned they should give a fall tag with every small game license sold.


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## reowen51 (May 11, 2005)

LindaG;
I'm 55 years old. I participated in the first wild turkey hunt drawing in the state years ago and drew a tag that first year. I then went 5 years in a row without getting a tag. That right there should have been enough to sour a person towards the sport. During those years I continued to hunt through my three sons one of which always managed to draw a tag. I called for them. We hunted public lands near Vanderbuilt, Mi. and those were tough hunts yet very memorable. We did week-ends without sightings and week-ends without hearing birds. Seeing other hunters was a rare thing back then. When the opportunity to hunt private land availed itself I took full advantage of it and I have admittedly lost touch with the difficulty asociated with public ground hunters today...which explains why I started this thread. I do deer hunt some state game areas in the thumb from time to time and can tell you there is no shortage of turkeys in them. I saw 7 toms on Christmas eve from my deer stand. Where I hunt now IMO (private land in Hillsdale county) could support a two bird limit. I do not think that my out of state experiences have been the quality of my most recent Michigan hunts. Yet like my early years here in Michigan they produced some quality memories for me ,my family and my friends. We turkey hunters need to get out there more doing this thing we love. I've found ways to extend the time I spend afield and yet I hear lots of potential hunters complain about the drawing, quick hunts over in minutes after substancial investments in equiptment and now the price increase for tags next year. I'm sorry if something I said earlier made you believe I was a novice to this sport. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Success is a Decision;
Bob Owen


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## Jim Maturen (Jan 23, 2005)

Take a look at your application guide for the spring seasons at the 13 county Area K. The turkey population slowly climbed to a winter population count of 23,000. After 5 years of tough winters, cold and wet springs with little recruitment , add predation and natural mortality and the population fell to 16,000. This is the reason why there have not been a fall season for several years. Consider that 1/3 of the population are toms and jakes and that doesn't leave many spread out over 13 counties. If we are to maintain a quality, one on one hunting situation hunting pressure on those few gobblers must be spread out over the entire season. Area K is not unique to much of northern Michigan and will not support a two gobbler limit. The more hunters that kill two gobblers would leave one less for someone else, espeially since only about 1/3 of the hunters take a gobbler each year.
I've been chasing spring gobblers for 38 years and I NEVER get tired of it.


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## DEO (Feb 7, 2004)

I'd like to tell you that i have hunted our turkeys on state land only in the thumb and there seams to be alot of birds. I have always put in for the early draw and have got a pemit the last two years for the second week of the hunt, a one week permit. Last year i spent a total of one day in the woods, one night and one morning hunt. And got my bird. My sons had also got there birds on state land. But on later hunts. Three tags three birds all from state land. So for those off us that would like to see a two bird limit and be able to spend more time in the woods, I think that if you dont apply for a tag that the extra tags should be available to those of us who did. Or have drawing only hunts and no over the counter tags. Then if there are any tags left have another drawing to those of us who would like to hunt some more.


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## One Eye (Sep 10, 2000)

I have been hunting turkeys in Michigan for too long to remember. There are definitely more turkeys now than then, but the "quality" of the hunting experience continues to diminish as the number of permits were increased. I put in for the 234 hunt simply to have more time in the woods with my kids and chase turkeys. The hunting is usually tougher, be we manage to have some quality days afield and even get a chance or two at a bird.

I spend the majority of my hunting on public land with a little private thrown in when I am not in danger of crowding the landowner and his relatives. JMHO, but I think that a multiple bird bag limit would continue to send the quality of the experience downward. More hunters out pounding the woods for longer periods of time.

Does a 2 turkey bag limit fit with QTM???

Dan


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

We jokingly talked about forming a "QTM" group years ago, and were laughed off the charts. Now no one's laughing any more. But as a matter of fact, we did form that group, it's just known under a different name-the Michigan Wild Turkey Hunters Association. That's just about all we talk about-the quality of the hunt.


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## huntingfool43 (Mar 16, 2002)

We all ready have a 2 bird limit, 1 in the spring and 1 in the fall. Thats all we need.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Linda G. said:


> If Michigan had mostly private land, I might go along with that. ........


Well then, I guess you go along with the 2 tag idea.

As a couple have already mentioned, we have 2 tags available....one spring & one fall. I would prefer to use both of my tags in the spring on private land in southern Mich. As mentioned in the past, I think the 2nd tag should be good for the last 2 weeks of May.

L & O


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## double lung (Sep 7, 2007)

I am dead set against a two bird limit. Turkey Call Magazine published an article with each state's estimated flock numbers and estimated harvest. I don't recall the numbers (and can't find the magazine now), but Michigan was right in line with the best turkey hunting states as far as percentage of our flock that was killed. If I thought the flock could stand more birds being killed and not hurt the bird numbers or tom/hen ratio then I would be all for it. As flocks grow and more hunters join the sport, pressured birds become a fact of life. I don't care, I like hunting 'em

I do not feel that multiple bird limits have hurt the other states I have hunted. Last spring I killed 4 birds in 4 days (and missed 1) on public land in one state, and 2 in 2 days on public land in another state. I felt that the quality of the hunt, considering bird numbers and hunter pressure, was comparable to Michigan in one state and far better in the other state. 

But those states don't have our hunter numbers, and most importantly *with multiple bird limits they kill about the same per-centage of their flock as we do with a one bird limit. *


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

IMHO yes a limited 2 bird limit is feasible.:Modified_ first stop that insult :cocof selling leftovers over the counter to those that didn't apply:coco: PERIOD NO EXCUSES.:cheeky-sm
then either have a second drawing :idea:for all of those who FOLLOWED the rules of application period, or sell them over the counter to those who applied per application rules.:bouncy:
now for all of you d.n.r. and roberta if you do this you won't lose any money AND ALL THOSE TAGS WILL BE SOLD!:woohoo1:


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## H.S. Strut (Feb 3, 2008)

Linda G. said:


> Our turkeys are smart enough, when they're hunted day after day after day, to survive anything. Very few people would actually take two turkeys. Not unless they just bushwhacked em or broke the law and grabbed a rifle.


I agree, only the skilled turkey hunters would be able to take "TWO" turkeys..... 

Where did you hunt in Tennessee ? Just curious but would like to know. I have hunted around TN also. 

The first morning i hunted in Michigan this past spring i killed a really nice longbeard. He was "henned up" and not about to leave his ladies so tactics changed and i called in his "harem" instead ,which ultimately led to his death. From what i saw in the limited amount of time i was there (spring turkey and fall deer hunting) , the area had an abundant population of birds. Now i realize that not all areas in Mi. have that amount of birds but in some parts the population is attaining big numbers in the flocks. 

BTW, Tennessee's turkey population is "Thriving" and still moving upwards even with a 4 bird spring limit. Tennessee also has fall hunts that account for several thousand birds being killed and still the population has grown. Parts of Tennessee that have never had many turkeys are now holding good populations of birds.


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## H.S. Strut (Feb 3, 2008)

reowen51 said:


> Having hunted multiple states last year I am happy to report that I saw many more birds here in Michigan than I saw in Tenn. Kansas, New Mexico and Arkansas.


How many days did you spend turkey hunting in TN compared to Mi? Its a lot easier to find turkeys on your home turf than it is in other states that you arent as familiar with.


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## Critter (Mar 3, 2006)

In the areas I hunt the population could handle the two bird limit. I used to be all for a increased limit but have since changed my mind. Instead of more hunting I have got into guiding and calling for other people, just as much fun, maybe more for me. It keeps quality hunts for everyone involved. 
I am looking to hunt outside our state starting next year to expand my hunting into some of the other subspecies. One of the hunts were looking at is a three bird, two state hunt, that should keep us busy.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

reowen51 said:


> Hey it's 2008 now has anything changed?ttt



Nothing really. I still would say "No" and agree with many who have posted earlier on keeping the quality in the spring hunt for 1 gobbler.

But I can say the turkey populations up here in the NW Lower have only gone down, down, down in the last five years. Our birds need help with winter feeding programs to make it and some decent spring nesting season weather. 

A "wet chick" is "dead chick".

NB


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## reowen51 (May 11, 2005)

H.S. Strut said:


> How many days did you spend turkey hunting in TN compared to Mi? Its a lot easier to find turkeys on your home turf than it is in other states that you arent as familiar with.


Time spent afield was pretty much dead even. When buying an out of state tag to hunt turkeys you better believe we had bird encounters nearly every day because we did our homework. In Kansas and N.M. we actually had others scouting before we arrived so finding birds was never a great concern. Calling wildlife biologists in those other states and taking their recomendations can be a big help too. Finding them at home is easier just because preseason scouting isn't any harder than commuting to work for me.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Haven't been down there now in a couple of years, but I still have several very good friends down there, and nothing's changed too much, they tell me. 

I hunted in what's called Tennessee's "Golden Triangle" of turkey hunting-Lincoln County, to be exact. Private land. 

Successful turkey hunting in other states depends on much more than just knowing where the turkeys are-with all the message boards out there, a few phone calls, and a good, loud turkey call in your hand, plus as much scouting as you can do during late mornings, finding turkeys usually isn't that big of an obstacle to an out of state hunter.

In most states, getting access to the birds is the obstacle. That was a large part of my problems in Tennessee, although I did have about 1000 acres to hunt. They could have issued me, and a hundred other non-resident hunters with limited access to lands, tags for 100 birds, and it wouldn't have mattered. 

In states like Kansas, with a lot more public land, not to mention easy permission from landowners, I had a LOT more land to hunt than that, and bagging more than one bird was much more feasible than in states like Tennessee, or northern Ohio. 

Michigan still, hands down, even with one bird, gives most hunters more for their money than they'd ever get in any other state. Lots of birds on lots of public land.

No, keep it to one bird-as I've said before, it wouldn't hurt the birds, it would kill the quality of the hunt. 

And yes, nw Michigan is in trouble as far as our numbers...and after this winter, I'm sure it will be much worse. Hardest winter we've seen in years.


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

My area has plenty of birds so the double tag debate is not a biological issue. It is a quality issue and access issue. As usual the large populations are building up in the wrong non-hunting suburbs and in the cities. The public has no conception of quality hunting. I just hear the town folk complaining about the birds in their yards like goose poop and bird feeder raiders like squirrels. Yet, there is no hunting allowed to reduce the over population complaints. Ten tags can't penetrate the protected birds, but that topic has been covered before.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Wow this is an interesting debate that has gone on for years on here. 

My .02 cents. Guys that kill turkeys kill turkeys regularly. But these same guys that kill turkeys regularly help other people that dont have success kill turkeys before or after their season in an effort to spend more time in the field. So maybe with a two bird limit the guys who kill turkey regularly would instead kill a second bird instead of helping someone else kill a bird resulting in the same harvest. (wow that paragraphs confusing)

Another point: If a second tag did result in the harvest going up, we would have to have a split season much like Iowa in that the second bird is at a later date once "most" of the breeding is done and other hunters have given up do to fatique, green up etc. 

I to agree with some others posts bird populations in NW lower Michigan have decreased as of recently. With thousands of acres of prime private land to hunt I would argue this with anyone. But also pressure to has increased, more hunters calling equals less gobbling resulting in poorer hunting and thoughts that bird populations are lower than what they actually are. 

So do I personally want to see multiple tags. I could really care less. Most years I am the last one to kill a bird outta the 8-10 people I call for. In most years I could really care less if I pull the trigger. It is much more rewarding watching someone else drop the hammer.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

reowen51 said:


> Having hunted multiple states last year I am happy to report that I saw many more birds here in Michigan than I saw in Tenn. Kansas, New Mexico and Arkansas. *All those other states have a multiple bird spring season. *


Which is probably why _we_ have more birds than those other states...........

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

lets think out of the box for a second.
if you don't know how to hunt, it doesn't matter what you are hunting you aren't going to see game anyhow unless it's a mistake on the games part.
having said that, let the state D.N.R. biologists decide the 2 bird limit not the pro or anti groups on this subject. this has the same SMELL AS THE CROSSBOW ISSUE!


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## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

I think as noted-depends on area. Up here no-this was never intended to be turkey/pheasant country. There is no way a turkey can scratch thru 1' snow with 2 layers of ice to get anything to eat. Without supplemental feeding-coyote food.


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## Fowl Obsession (Mar 1, 2006)

Is our approach to turkey population management a repeat of our previous whitetail deer management.

In the late 70's and thru the 80's and early 90's, when our deer population saw a tremendous increase (mostly in southern Michigan), our answer was to increase the buck harvest (to as many a 4 bucks per hunter). The result was that we had little impact on population, but we had a huge negative impact on the buck to doe ratio, which negatively impacted the overall health of the herd.

This discussion of increased "Tom" tags sounds like the same stratagy to me. I live and hunt in mid-southern Michigan (private property) and have done so since turkey hunting was first allowed here (early 90's). During that time, I feel that we have seen a change in turkey behavior. Today, we see toms with hens (breeding) all the way thru May. We are also seeing young polts during our fall hunting seasons. To me, this says that the tom to hen ratio is out of wack, and also (as is the case in many places of southern Michigan) we have to many turkeys in our area. I don't think the answer is to shoot more toms (multiple tags).

I have long thought that the fall season (population control season) should be a hen only season. The problem is that many hunters would not participate if they were not allowed to kill a tom.

If the season seems to short and/or unfullfilling, there are many ways to add challange to the hunt without killing more toms. Weather we want to be or not, we are the stewards of the resource, and we should lobby for changes that improve the entire resource not just what makes the hunt more fun.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Fowl-your response to this thread is something everyone should take to heart. I have jokingly advocated for "QTM" for years, and advocated for a hens-only fall season years ago...they should do this. No one really participates in this season anyway, so they really should make it a full management hunt.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

sign me up--I'LL SHOOT A HEN IN A HEARTBEAT!:woohoo1::bouncy::corkysm55
I ALSO SHOOT **DOES**


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