# Discussion to revise the QDM guidelines at NRC meeting



## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

William Lowrie, Mason County Chapter, United Sportsman's Alliance,
opposed implementing quality deer management (QDM) in Mason County. He
believes this would take away hunters rights and give the management of
the deer herd to special interest groups.

Walt Olmstead opposes implementing QDM in Mason County. He believes
the QDM process needs to be reevaluated relative to management
philosophies, goals and methods, based on changes in the physical and
social demands on Michigan's free-ranging deer and elk populations. He
believes that the current cost of $2000 to the sponsoring party does not
cover the costs for the survey work performed. He stated that he does
not believe the proposal being sent out with the surveys is the same
proposal presented and reviewed during public meetings. Mr. Olmstead
asked that a five year period should be required between when a QDM
proposal is denied and the next opportunity to submit a proposal.

Elmo Freeland presented 1230 signatures on a petition opposing QDM in
Mason County.

Becky Humphries, Wildlife Division Chief, noted that there has been
discussion to revise the QDM guidelines need work. Discussion ensued
relative to the development of guidelines.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

shoeman, you are intentionally misleading the forum members by giving the thread this title, should have been titled:

*trophy hunters and hunters that refuse to shoot doe complain at the NRC meeting* 

but whatever, LOL!


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

I did not start this thread to initiate another $h*tting match with you.

I subscribe to the DNR wire and get constant updates. This just happened to be one of many that pertained to topics covered in our forums.

However, I did get a kick out of the "Special Interest" labeling.

Lay off me, MAN


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

whatever, LOL!


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

jamie,
How ironic is it that when you must constantly be an abrasive arse that your opinions and ideals are questioned? My best advise is don't go into sales or become a doctor, your people skills could use some work.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

no one questioned my ideals, i could give a rat's. it was a blatantly misleading title.

my advice, don't give advice. 

LAY OFF ME, MAN!


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

The primary purpose of this forum, as I see it, is to try to discuss what QDM is about or isn't, and to discuss various deer management strategies. There's certainly a great deal of misinformation out there. As far as people being opposed to QDM, that's understandable. If you can get 60% of the people to agree on anything, that's something. People vote is one thing, doing what's best for the resource may be another thing. Some of these negative comments are probably due to the Mason County QDM initiative on antler restrictions, and may indicate a further need for additional education on QDM prior to initiating a QDM proposal for the area involved. 

For those who may be interested, below is the portion of the NRC minutes for the Dec meeting, as they pertain to the public comments on QDM. 

William Lowrie, Mason County Chapter, United Sportsman's Alliance, opposed implementing quality deer management (QDM) in Mason County. He believes this would take away hunters rights and give the management of the deer herd to special interest groups.

Walt Olmstead opposes implementing QDM in Mason County. He believes the QDM process needs to be reevaluated relative to management philosophies, goals and methods, based on changes in the physical and social demands on Michigan's free-ranging deer and elk populations. He believes that the current cost of $2000 to the sponsoring party does not cover the costs for the survey work performed. He stated that he does not believe the proposal being sent out with the surveys is the same
proposal presented and reviewed during public meetings. Mr. Olmstead asked that a five year period should be required between when a QDM proposal is denied and the next opportunity to submit a proposal.

Elmo Freeland presented 1230 signatures on a petition opposing QDM in Mason County.

Becky Humphries, Wildlife Division Chief, noted that there has been discussion to revise the QDM guidelines need work. Discussion ensued relative to the development of guidelines.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dec2002minutes_55002_7.pdf

see if you can find where QDM was "shot down", totally impartial reporting of news, LOL!

isn't this supposed to be in the outdoor news forum, LOL!


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Here's the entire email

In order to satisfy Jamie, the headline should have read "NRC temporarily shoots down QDM"

I apologize for the confusion.

_____________________________

MINUTES

NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION

Lansing Center
333 E. Michigan
Lansing

December 5-6, 2002

PRESENT

Jim Campbell
Keith Charters, Chair (Friday Only)
Nancy Douglas
Paul Eisele, Vice-Chair
Bob Garner
Frank Wheatlake

K. L. Cool, Director
A. Michael Leffler, Legal Counsel
George Burgoyne, Resource Management Deputy
James Ekdahl, Upper Peninsula Field Deputy
Kelli Sobel, Administrative Services Deputy
Department Staff

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Vice-Chairman Eisele called the Committee of the Whole meeting of the
Natural Resources Commission (NRC) to order at 3:05 p.m. on Thursday,
December 5, 2002. The Committee of the Whole is a working session of
the NRC.

Vice-Chairman Eisele introduced Commissioner-Elect John Madigan, who
will replace Commissioner Douglas on January 1, 2003.

DNR ACCOMPLISHMENTS

Director Cool reminded the Commission that in October, 1996, he met
with key DNR Executive Division personnel, Deputies and division Chiefs
at the Ralph A. MacMullan Conference Center for a Strategic Planning
Session to define the DNR's Mission and Vision for the Future, and
develop specific action steps to accomplish mutually established Goals.




The following Mission was adopted in October 1996: "The Michigan
Department of Natural Resources is committed to the conservation,
protection, management, use and enjoyment of the State's natural
resources for current and future generations."

The following Vision was adopted in October 1996:

" "The MDNR will be recognized as the leader in holistic natural
resources management. Our organizational structure will complement our
Mission and Goals with a unified purpose and sense of direction. The DNR
will be responsive and proactive in an ever-changing environment;
" The foundation of the DNR's success will be based on a
well-trained and recognized professional work force that values
effective working relationship with other agencies, the Executive Office
and Legislature, and the many diverse publics who have an interest in
the State's natural resources. Members of the DNR will use timely
communication and respectful behaviors along with responsive and
creative strategies, to fulfill the DNR's Mission and achieve our
Goals;
" The public will understand, appreciate and support sound natural
resource management. The DNR will identify and work with all existing
and potential natural resource users."

The following Goals were adopted in October 1996:

Goal A: Efficient and Effective Management and Supervision
Goal B: Holistic Resource Management
Goal C: Communications and Education
Goal D: Organization Culture
Goal E: Employee Development and Training
Goal F: Strategic Management

Director Cool then presented an overview of major natural resources and
outdoor recreational accomplishments during the time period of April,
1996 to December 2002 categorized by Goal. Department of Natural
Resources "Accomplishments 1996-2002" can be viewed on the web under
www.michigan.gov/dnr.

Dick Morscheck presented a slide show featuring Michigan's natural
resources. He said it reminds us of how fortunate we are to have the
care of these resources entrusted to us by the people of the State. He
thanked the NRC, Mr. Leffler, the Executive and Legislative Branch, and
constituents of the DNR for their activism and involvement in the
process to assure that Michigan's natural resources will remain the envy
of the nation.

* * *
Commissioner Garner left the meeting.

NEW EMPLOYEE ORIENTATION

Jerry Harris, Human Resources Chief, reported that the DNR has
developed a new employee orientation program. Dick Morscheck, DNR
Communications Specialist, presented a PowerPoint that will be shown to
new employees during orientation.

* * *
Kelli Sobel, Administrative Services Deputy, introduced David Freed,
who was recently appointed as Chief of Land and Facilities.

* * *

RETAIL SALES SYSTEM

Kelli Sobel stated that the DNR is in the process of developing a
three-pronged approach for issuing licenses. Point-of-sale terminals
will continue to be used, but the DNR is moving away from these
terminals. The DNR is implementing a pilot program over the next year
utilizing Kiosks for hunting and fishing licenses. She had a model
Kiosk available and demonstrated the purchase of a license process. The
Kiosks will be located in major department stores, smaller stores, and
in DNR offices and be available for use 24 hours a day. The third
method of obtaining a license would be to have web-enabled terminals
available (1000 terminals over the next eight months). The e-licensing
system only receives about two percent of license purchasers, but it is
anticipated this will increase.

* * *

Commissioner Garner left the meeting.

* * *

The Committee of the Whole meeting adjourned at 4:30 p.m.










REGULAR MEETING OF THE NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION

Vice-Chairman Eisele called the regular meeting of the Natural
Resources Commission (NRC) to order at 4:50 p.m.

PUBLIC APPEARANCES

William Lowrie, Mason County Chapter, United Sportsman's Alliance
Walt Olmstead
Elmo Freeland
Harry Mikolowski
Sam Washington, MUCC

William Lowrie, Mason County Chapter, United Sportsman's Alliance,
opposed implementing quality deer management (QDM) in Mason County. He
believes this would take away hunters rights and give the management of
the deer herd to special interest groups.

Walt Olmstead opposes implementing QDM in Mason County. He believes
the QDM process needs to be reevaluated relative to management
philosophies, goals and methods, based on changes in the physical and
social demands on Michigan's free-ranging deer and elk populations. He
believes that the current cost of $2000 to the sponsoring party does not
cover the costs for the survey work performed. He stated that he does
not believe the proposal being sent out with the surveys is the same
proposal presented and reviewed during public meetings. Mr. Olmstead
asked that a five year period should be required between when a QDM
proposal is denied and the next opportunity to submit a proposal.

Elmo Freeland presented 1230 signatures on a petition opposing QDM in
Mason County.

Becky Humphries, Wildlife Division Chief, noted that there has been
discussion to revise the QDM guidelines need work. Discussion ensued
relative to the development of guidelines.

Harry Mikolowski requested that the dog running season be revised and
that a quiet period be implemented early on and allow them to run again
after September 15. He stated that he does not utilize dogs but uses
bait for bear hunting, and the dogs spook the bear away when training.
George Burgoyne, Resource Management Deputy, stated that this issue has
been discussed before and this issue was the impetus behind Proposal G.




Sam Washington, MUCC, thanked Commissioner Douglas for her service on
the NRC.

Mr. Washington expressed concern that the State is not taking
reasonable steps in dealing with Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). He does
not believe that the tracking of CWD animals is viewed with high enough
urgency, and there is no effective means of tracking animals on game
farms throughout the state. No strong controls exist against a bad
game farm operator, and there are economic incentives to import when the
penalty is a misdemeanor. He recommended that the NRC develop a task
force to investigate any and all possible means to stop importation of
diseased animals into Michigan from other states. He does not believe
that the Department of Agriculture is doing everything they can to keep
CWD out of Michigan.

Rick Asher, Law Enforcement Chief, stated that the authority to
regulate captive cervids lies with the Director of the Department of
Agriculture. Discussion ensued regarding enforcement.

Director Cool reported that MUCC and the DNR have worked for several
years to provide realistic and improved outdoor camping facilities for
youth. On December 3, 2002, MUCC and DNR signed a multi-year lease for
the Cedar Lake Camp at the Waterloo Recreation Area and are moving
forward to develop this year-round outdoor center.

* * *

The meeting adjourned at 6:00 p.m. on December 5, 2002 and Chairman
Charters reconvened the meeting at 8:35 a.m. on December 6, 2002.

DIRECTOR'S REPORTS

Rick Asher reported that the 2002 deer hunting season was the third
safest on record. During firearm season there was one fatality and 17
non-fatal injuries. The fatality as well as three of the non-fatal
injuries resulted from violations of the law. Mr. Asher reported that
12 of the non-fatal injuries were self-inflicted and could have been
prevented. The fatality occurred one hour after hunting hours closed.
He stated that it was an overall good season.

Commissioner Eisele questioned whether there were any elevated tree
stand related accidents. Mr. Asher responded that there were injuries
due to hauling loaded weapons to or from tree stands.

Commissioner Garner noted that the online antlerless tags were of the
quality that would easily tear. He has made DNR staff aware of the
problem, and it is being addressed.

Mr. Asher stated that baiting enforcement was stepped up this year.
Officers were assisted by having consistent regulations for baiting.
Baiting compliance is poor on private lands, but overall volume of bait
is reduced this year.

2002 Firearm Deer Season Report

Becky Humphries, Wildlife Division Chief, presented the preliminary
estimates of the 2002 Michigan firearm deer season harvest. The DNR
estimate shows approximately 288,000 deer taken, of which 158,000 were
antlered and 130,000 were antlerless. This estimate is 15 percent below
the previous five-year average. The total deer harvest from all deer
hunting seasons is expected to be below the previously issued 506,000
pre-season estimate for 2002. Ms. Humphries reported that an estimated
725,000 hunters took to the field during the November 15-30 hunt. Total
license sales through the firearm season were slightly up compared to
2001 sales. She continued to present a breakdown of harvest by areas of
the state.

Dr. Steve Schmitt, Wildlife Division, presented the 2002 bovine
tuberculosis (TB) surveillance in free-ranging white-tailed deer from
January 1, 2002 through December 5, 2002. Approximately 15,400 deer
were tested statewide. He stated that there were 29 suspect deer taken
from the four-county TB area in the northeastern Lower Peninsula.

Dr. Schmitt presented the 2002 Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
Surveillance for Free-ranging White-tailed Deer and Elk, January 1, 2002
through December 5, 2002. Deer heads were requested from 40 counties
across the State at a minimum of 60 samples per county. The five
counties on or near the northern Wisconsin/Michigan border have a
minimum goal of 60 samples, but up to 300 samples per county. Thirteen
of the 40 counties have met testing objectives leaving seven counties
where more samples are needed. Over 3,000 deer have been collected for
testing. Results from 25 percent are in of which all are negative. He
indicated that any deer showing signs of CWD (skinny deer that you can
walk up to) will be accepted from anywhere in the State.

Commissioner Wheatlake questioned whether any captive cervid operations
were turning in samples. Dr. Schmidt responded that the Department of
Agriculture is responsible for collecting captive samples.

Becky Humphries commented on the issue of importation of carcasses from
other states. She stated that a press release went out strongly
advising that deer carcasses being brought into Michigan from other
states be tested, and Michigan would work with those folks to ensure
proper disposal. Discussion ensued regarding the importance of
communicating with taxidermists regarding the proper handling of
imported carcasses. Commissioner Garner recommended that states need to
come together to coordinate a single standard on importing.

Dr. Schmitt reported that Wisconsin has sampled over 36,000 deer for
CWD in total. Approximately 34,000 have been from this hunting season
of which over 50 have tested positive for CWD. At this time, none of
the test positives are from the Wisconsin/Michigan bordering counties.


Budget Update

Kelli Sobel explained the components of the Governor's budget reduction
that was approved by the Legislature on Thursday. There were three
components to the reduction package:

1. A 1% reduction that was contained in the FY03 Budget Bill. The
DNR's reduction was $455,000 and was cut from the Department's
allocation to Information Technology (DIT). This can be absorbed because
there are several vacant positions and DIT did not replace any early
retirees.

2. A 2.5% reduction of $1,095,000 for the DNR. We took this reduction
by taking the fund balance from the 1988 Recreation Bonds and using
that fund balance to make debt service payments. The DNR was able to
use this approach because of the many meetings and reviews held with the
Policy Committee on Finance and Administration.

3. A supplemental that included both positives and negatives. The
positives for DNR were for Trust Fund Acquisition, Waterways projects,
Park Improvements and to pay the Federal Audit. The reduction was to
take the fund balance from the Waterways and Harbor Development funds to
help with the budget deficit. This reduction was $7.8 million. The
Waterways program is fully funded for FY03, FY04 and we should be able
to run a modest program in FY05.

The Federal Audit payment included $1.9 million to be paid to the Game
and Fish Protection Fund for activities that were funded with Game and
Fish but should have been funded with Snowmobile and ORV. We are close
to a final resolution on the audit which would include the USFWS ruling
that our habitat protection activities were eligible but we would have
to pay back $556,000 for General Services. A further update will be
provided once the details are final.

Ms. Sobel introduced Sharon Schafer who was recently appointed Chief of
Budget and Support Services.

Chairman Charters commented that it was agreed that no field offices
would be closed until the closures were discussed at an NRC meeting.



APPROVAL OF MINUTES, NOVEMBER 7-8, 2002 NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION
MEETING

Commissioner Eisele made a motion, supported by Commissioner Douglas,
for approval. Motion unanimously carried.

RECOGNITION OF COMMISSIONER NANCY DOUGLAS

Chairman Charters and Director Cool presented a plaque of recognition
to Commissioner Nancy Douglas for her contributions to the natural
resources of the State as a Natural Resources Commissioner from December
1996 through December 2002. She will be missed. Commissioner Douglas
thanked the NRC and DNR for her plaque and stated that it was a pleasure
to serve on the NRC.

DIRECTOR'S ACTION ITEMS

Director Cool intends to sign all Director Action items on the agenda
except II.A. State Forest Land Acquisition, Grayling Forest Management
Unit - Crawford County.

CAPTIVE CERVID

Pete Butchko, USDA, Wildlife Services, reviewed the USDA, Wildlife
Services fencing pilot project. The goal of the project is to determine
practical and effective fencing to keep deer out of stored feed and to
reduce the potential spread of bovine TB between deer and between deer
and cattle. This program was initiated in March 2002 with a budget of
$100,000. Cooperating agencies include the DNR, MSU Cooperative
Extension Service, USDA Veterinary Services, Michigan Department of
Agriculture, Michigan Farm Bureau, Michigan State University and the
National Wildlife Research Center. Issues to be addressed by the
project include: where to fence and fence designs. The project and
evaluation process will occur over a one-year timeframe. Chairman
Charters stated that this is a very good start, and it will take many
more steps to resolve this issue.

COMMISSIONER REPORTS

Commissioner Douglas reported that Menominee County had a successful
deer hunt this season.

Commissioner Campbell received several phone calls regarding hunting
issues.

Commissioner Garner spent time hunting; received several calls
regarding hunting issues and did a radio show in the Upper Peninsula
where he was able to discuss the message of wildlife habitat. He stated
that he viewed a Mead Corporation forestry cutting near Crystal Falls
that will be converted to tamarack. He expressed concern because this
is occurring in several locations and tamarack is not good wildlife
habitat.

Commissioner Garner recognized Pete Squibb, Wildlife Division, who will
be retiring at the end of the month.

NRC POLICY COMMITTEE ON TECHNOLOGY, INFORMATION, MARKETING AND
EDUCATION (TIME) REPORT

Commissioner Garner reported that the TIME Committee met on Thursday,
December 5, 2002 at 2:30 p.m. in Lansing. The Committee viewed L.A.P.s
videos and a lumbering video done by the DNR. Commissioner Garner
commended staff for their work on the projects.

COMMISSIONER REPORTS continued

Chairman Charters reported he has had a good deer hunting season thus
far. He reported that he, Dr. Schmitt, Michigan Farm Bureau and
Agriculture Commissioners met with agricultural producers, and he was
surprised that a majority of the agricultural attendees had never been
to a hunting camp. He also reported that he and Commissioner Garner met
with the transition team at which time Chairman Charters stated that the
NRC would not be a barrier to them and that the NRC exists with the
objective to protect the natural resources of the state.

NRC POLICY COMMITTEE ON LAND MANAGEMENT

The NRC Policy Committee on Land Management met on Thursday, December
5, 2002 at 12:30 p.m. in Lansing. During the meeting, the Committee and
meeting participants discussed a draft NRC Policy relative to Department
Land Holdings. This policy will be added to a future agenda "For
Information Only" then Action the following month.

LEGISLATIVE UPDATE

Dennis Knapp, Legislative Liaison, reported that the proposed
legislative bill giving the NRC authority to set certain fees will not
proceed through the Legislative process this session. He is optimistic,
however that this bill will be addressed in the next Legislative
session. Mr. Knapp thanked MUCC and Trout Unlimited for its support of
this Legislation and for their enthusiasm and assistance. Director Cool
thanked Sam Washington, MUCC and the NRC for their involvement.

Mr. Knapp also reported that future bill endeavors will involve ORVs
and shooting ranges. Staff is in the process of developing Legislative
priorities for 2003.

Commissioner Garner commended Mr. Knapp for his efforts as Legislative
Liaison.

* * *


Commissioner Douglas made a motion, supported by Commissioner Garner,
to adjourn. The meeting was adjourned at 10:30 a.m.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Thanks Boyd. This forum is in danger of being shut down for good! It causes way too much division at a time when we need unity through our ranks. While those against QDM would most likely rejoice with such a closure, realize that it would not be only the anti-QDM crowd that got the forum closed. There are factions of the QDM crowd who refuse to accept any debate on the topic thus shooting themselves in the foot.

If this forum is shut down I would also remove posts in other forums on this topic. No, I have not been manipulated by others on this topic (as some will and have said).... I was the one who thought a QDM forum was a good idea in the first place and pushed to have it added.


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## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

There you go Jamie,,,,the titles changed. Happy?


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

I know before I even read it that this was gonna be heated.

Can't we all just get along


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

very accurate interpretation, LOL! what exactly was defeated?


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

come on steve, there is no debate. if someone is going to do us a service by providing info about current news, they shouldn't put a slant on it.

NOTHING was defeated, NOTHING was "shot down", NOTHING was handed a "set back"

two guys voiced concerns, one guy submitted a petition, happens all the time. 


was there a vote by the NRC on any of this? 


i didn't think so.


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## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

S**t-----setback----is that politically correct enough?

Now were arguing about titles.....lol


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

The title of the thread has been changed.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

LOL! rediculous


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

My thoughts exactly.


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## twodogsphil (Apr 16, 2002)

Steve, I do not believe the thread title has been changed on the QDM forum menu. Also, although Shoeman's thread title has been changed it is still very misleading. There was no setback, the QDM survey is still going in Mason County.


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

We do need to be more careful when it comes to attacking each other and I think we could also try to be more careful by presenting articles, etc without putting in our own inflamatory editorial. 

For the record, I don't know Walt Olmstead, and don't agree with portions of his testimony, however, I did receive an email from a person I do know, who knows Walt and based on his comments, I believe Walt to be sincere in his beliefs.

Here's his comments: "FYI I've known Walt Olmstead for 20+ years as he was most active in the fishery issues for most of those years. I knew Walt in St Joe long before hemoved to Ludington. I met with Walt again about two weeks ago and we also meet at weddings/funerals ect. Walt is an environmentalist, former charter captain, and we only disagree on the QDM topic debates. With QDM aside, Walt is really an avid hunt/fish/environment supporter."

Enough of that, let's get back to some good discussion on deer management strategies, QDM info, etc! We'll only be hurting ourselves if we can't discuss in a civil manner.


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