# Change dates for Grouse Season in MI



## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

I am sure we could get the Deer Hunters to cooperate.


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## DanP (Mar 1, 2005)

I agree, deer season would be a problem. Can't say I would want my dogs in the woods during firearm deer season. Not worth my dogs life
with the IQ of some during those 2 weeks.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Why would anyone be in favor of losing 45 days of the season to gain 15 days during rifle season?

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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

DanP said:


> I agree, deer season would be a problem. Can't say I would want my dogs in the woods during firearm deer season. Not worth my dogs life
> with the IQ of some during those 2 weeks.


I probably have the most confrontations every year the weekend before opening day. Usually the best time to grouse hunt but always the most jerks in the woods. I couldn't care less what happens to me, it's my dogs I worry about. Can't tell you how many times I've had guys threaten to shoot my dogs while they're setting up camp or scouting.


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## C20chris (Dec 4, 2007)

I no idea how there would be any benefit in this, to anyone or anything.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

augustus0603 said:


> I probably have the most confrontations every year the weekend before opening day. Usually the best time to grouse hunt but always the most jerks in the woods. I couldn't care less what happens to me, it's my dogs I worry about. Can't tell you how many times I've had guys threaten to shoot my dogs while they're setting up camp or scouting.


Last year we had a really good grouse hunt on the evening of the 14th ogemaw county. We were headed to the truck nearing the road and some guys were driving by. They slammed on the brakes and backed up a bit. They rolled down a window and yelled hey we are going to be hunting here in the morning. I replied ok good luck and enjoy yourself. Then i hear one of them say to the other. Oh they are just pheasant hunters! The tore off spinning their tires. 

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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

I voted no but rarely see decent weather for bird hunting in the two weeks in September anyway. Plus there are always late broods around hardly able to fly ie "bob tails"........ 😬 Start the grouse season on October 1.


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

This assumes we move Deer Hunting Opening day to Dec 1. 
As a part time deer hunter I would approve,


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

wirehair said:


> This assumes we move Deer Hunting Opening day to Dec 1.
> As a part time deer hunter I would approve,


You would be losing 32 days of grouse hunting though. Seems like a bad deal. 

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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

just another ploy from qdmrs to empty the woods of people disrupting the sacred hunt...


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

Honesty I didn't vote because I couldn't choose. September isn't good hunting because of the leaf cover, and December is just nasty, so giving them up isn't much of a problem. But it seems like giving them up for nothing useful to me.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Tilden Hunter said:


> Honesty I didn't vote because I couldn't choose. September isn't good hunting because of the leaf cover, and December is just nasty, so giving them up isn't much of a problem. But it seems like giving them up for nothing useful to me.


September is different year to year. Last year I had a fantastic september. Lots of family groups and weather was mild. No extremely warm days. I shot more than half my grouse for the season the first 12 days. That was primarily hunting 2-2.5 hrs per evening. 

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## Dirty Sanchez (10 mo ago)

Can I shoot said grouse, on revised date, with an airbow?


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## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

what amazes me nowadays is how people have a passionate desire to fix WHAT ISN'T BROKEN

the switch from Monday to Saturday for turkey opener has been a disaster, not sure how many times dirt bikers came flying between me and working birds


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

Grouse Season would be October 1 to Nov 30th. Close Dec 1-15 (fire arm deer) and reopen Dec 15th - 30


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## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

so you are changing the firearm deer season too?

wow


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

good luck with that


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

TheHighLIfe said:


> so you are changing the firearm deer season too?
> 
> wow


The way things are going now deer season will open October 1st and end January first with no weapon restriction. No real downside to that.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Luv2hunteup said:


> The way things are going now deer season will open October 1st and end January first with no weapon restriction. No real downside to that.


That depends. Do you want your deer hunting to be a challenge? Or a challenge, but not really too much of a challenge?


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## wpmisport (Feb 9, 2010)

Tilden Hunter said:


> December is just nasty, so giving them up isn't much of a problem.


Some years the best time to go is in December, and the woods are less populated with people and the leaves are gone which makes for easier shooting. But then I ran my bird dog all winter when the days were nice, I just didn't shoot.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

I've always preferred to hunt grouse in December. My experience is they seem to be in bigger covey's and with foliage down it's more open for shot opportunities. Landscape is beautiful also that time of year. Often times when deer hunting in the UP during the firearm season I've wished I could shoot a couple for a camp dinner. It does seem a bad idea having a bird season during the rifle deer season for obvious reasons. Think I'd opt for going back to a December grouse hunt like it once was IF I grouse hunted enough for it to actually matter for me.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

LGB said:


> I've always preferred to hunt grouse in December. My experience is they seem to be in bigger covey's and with foliage down it's more open for shot opportunities. Landscape is beautiful also that time of year. Often times when deer hunting in the UP during the firearm season I've wished I could shoot a couple for a camp dinner. It does seem a bad idea having a bird season during the rifle deer season for obvious reasons. Think I'd opt for going back to a December grouse hunt like it once was IF I grouse hunted enough for it to actually matter for me.


I agree. Michigan deer hunters like to sit in their shack, popup blind or stand for hours on end and they get uptight if anything disturbs them. Bird hunters would always be a conflict. We go outwest and hunt when deer season is going on. You get a completely different reaction from deer hunters there. Spot and stalk hunters love us because deer will either get on the move or they will stand up and watch us move by from a distance. Deer hunters will always stop and glass a field we are hunting and they appreciate a bird hunter. When we are done they always stop to chat and ask us about deer we have been seeing and they will offer advice as to areas they have been seeing pheasants or quail. 

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## Martin Looker (Jul 16, 2015)

And how many fools will be shooting them out of trees with their 7 mag. We know it's going to happen.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

Martin Looker said:


> And how many fools will be shooting them out of trees with their 7 mag. We know it's going to happen.


Makes it tempting for sure. Otherwise, not so much. I'd definitely be taking my over under up in deer hunts if they did. Near our camp but away from our deer area we have alot of grouse. Mostly near camp. Be an easy meal many times just hanging out in camp


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

C20chris said:


> I no idea how there would be any benefit in this, to anyone or anything.


It would benefit the grouse.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

DirtySteve said:


> I agree. Michigan deer hunters like to sit in their shack, popup blind or stand for hours on end and they get uptight if anything disturbs them. Bird hunters would always be a conflict. We go outwest and hunt when deer season is going on. You get a completely different reaction from deer hunters there. Spot and stalk hunters love us because deer will either get on the move or they will stand up and watch us move by from a distance. Deer hunters will always stop and glass a field we are hunting and they appreciate a bird hunter. When we are done they always stop to chat and ask us about deer we have been seeing and they will offer advice as to areas they have been seeing pheasants or quail.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


We had more deer hunters than the population of the entire state North Dakota.
Are deer license and harvest numbers are equal to 4 of the Midwestern states.Also lower state populations in the Midwest


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

It has been mentioned before that the Grouse opener used to be in mid October I believe.
Some folks stated they moved the opener back to overlap more with woodcock season


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

birdhntr said:


> It has been mentioned before that the Grouse opener used to be in mid October I believe.
> Some folks stated they moved the opener back to overlap more with woodcock season


How long ago was the opener in October?

I have some random old hunting guides in my desk drawer. The first one I pulled out was 1986. It lists sept 15-nov 14th for both grouse and woodcock. I think I have some from the 70's downstairs. Makes me curious. 

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## aphess223 (Aug 1, 2001)

Grouse has always Opened on Sept. 15 along with Squirrel, Pheasant Opened on Oct. 20 used to be
as big as the Gun Deer Opener. The Farm Bill around 1974 to the present, I believe, pretty much wiped out the Pheasant along with all the Urban Sprawl but Human don't cause Climate Change.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

DirtySteve said:


> How long ago was the opener in October?
> 
> I have some random old hunting guides in my desk drawer. The first one I pulled out was 1986. It lists sept 15-nov 14th for both grouse and woodcock. I think I have some from the 70's downstairs. Makes me curious.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Further back in the past.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

birdhntr said:


> Further back in the past.


I found an article from an upnorth paper mentioning oct 1 grouse opener from 1966. The interesting part to me looking though the years of guides was the 80's and 90's quail was closed completely. I guess I never realized that. I can remember my dad and his buddy pheasant hunting when I was young and they came across a large covey on our property. They got 1 and made a big deal about how they never see them. I would have guessed that was close to 1980. Might have been late 70's.

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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

birdhntr said:


> It would benefit the grouse.


How?


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

I'm in favor of a longer and later season, but firearms deer should be off limits for anything else. It's a safety issue.


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

amon said:


> I'm in favor of a longer and later season, but firearms deer should be off limits for anything else. It's a safety issue.


now that's a load of bullchit.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Lucky Dog said:


> How?


Declining grouse numbers, reduced harvest period would reduce harvest numbers.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

birdhntr said:


> It would benefit the grouse.





Lucky Dog said:


> How?





birdhntr said:


> Declining grouse numbers, reduced harvest period would reduce harvest numbers.


Habitat...Habitat...The key to increasing grouse numbers is improving Habitat! Study after study has proven that small game, no matter what the species, cannot be stockpiled. If habitat is improved, numbers will follow. Gullion has some good info on grouse and there is a book called Our Wildlife Legacy by Durward Allen that should be mandatory reading for anyone interested in wildlife and the history of management. 

As far as dates of hunting seasons. When I started toting a 410 behind the house back in the '60s it was October 1, to November 10. Grouse numbers were cyclic and good habitat had birds even in low years. Then the season changed to start on September 15, but I do not recall if it still closed on November 10, or if it was moved to November 14, at the same time. Grouse numbers were still cyclic and. good habitat had birds even in low years. At some point, circa 2000 in the UP (years earlier in the LP) the December season was added. Numbers are still cyclic good habitat still has birds even in low years. 

Somewhere, buried in a treasure chest, is a copy of the hunting rules my grandfather put away, 1916 or thereabouts. If I recall correctly the season opened October 20 and ran until November 10. FM


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

Forest Meister said:


> Habitat...Habitat...The key to increasing grouse numbers is improving Habitat! Study after study has proven that small game, no matter what the species, cannot be stockpiled. If habitat is improved, numbers will follow. Gullion has some good info on grouse and there is a book called Our Wildlife Legacy by Durward Allen that should be mandatory reading for anyone interested in wildlife and the history of management.


^^^This^^^


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## aphess223 (Aug 1, 2001)

I stand corrected, I did some more digging,

the 1950's thru at least 1964 Hunting Digest,

Small Game License was $3.00

Ruff Grouse Season Zone 1 & 2, Oct. 1 thru Nov. 10, Zone 3, Oct. 20 thru Nov.19
Limit 5 per day, woodcock was the same

Rabbit Zone 1 & 2, Oct. 1 thru Mar. 1, Zone 3, Oct. 20 thru Mar. 1

Squirrel, Matched-Ruff Grouse Season

Deer License was $5.00, Bow or Gun, Limit 1 deer bow or gun, Buck Only 3 inches or more
Camp Deer License was $10.00 for 4 or more hunters limit 1 buck 3 inches or more
No Doe Season
There were No Compound Bows before 1964.

Season Statewide Gun, Nov.15 thru Nov. 30
No Doe Season

Bow Oct. 1 thru Nov. 5 (there were County restrictions) Statewide Season
either sex
Bow Allegan Co. Oct. 1 thru Dec. 15

this was just a quick look of the General Digest thru those years

aphess223


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## Upland Larry (Jul 27, 2019)

LGB said:


> I've always preferred to hunt grouse in December. My experience is they seem to be in bigger covey's and with foliage down it's more open for shot opportunities. Landscape is beautiful also that time of year. Often times when deer hunting in the UP during the firearm season I've wished I could shoot a couple for a camp dinner. It does seem a bad idea having a bird season during the rifle deer season for obvious reasons. Think I'd opt for going back to a December grouse hunt like it once was IF I grouse hunted enough for it to actually matter for me.





birdhntr said:


> Declining grouse numbers, reduced harvest period would reduce harvest numbers.


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## Upland Larry (Jul 27, 2019)

I would definitely like it to go back October 1 - November 10. And if there was a 1 week season in December, I’d be fine with that also!


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

NATTY BUMPO said:


> I voted no but rarely see decent weather for bird hunting in the two weeks in September anyway. Plus there are always late broods around hardly able to fly ie "bob tails"........ 😬 Start the grouse season on October 1.


I couldn't agree more. When I started grouse/woodcock hunting about 1960 or so both seasons opened Oct. 1st and grouse season closed Nov. 14th. for the year - not sure about woodcock. You could move grouse most anywhere you pulled off the road and started walking down a two-track in the U.P. or northern Lower and even in state game areas in the Thumb and outside of Detroit - Brighton State Game Area - and west along I-94 - Waterloo, Pinckney State Game Areas.

9mm Hi-Power


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> I couldn't agree more. When I started grouse/woodcock hunting about 1960 or so both seasons opened Oct. 1st and grouse season closed Nov. 14th. for the year - not sure about woodcock. You could move grouse most anywhere you pulled off the road and started walking down a two-track in the U.P. or northern Lower and even in state game areas in the Thumb and outside of Detroit - Brighton State Game Area - and west along I-94 - Waterloo, Pinckney State Game Areas.
> 
> 9mm Hi-Power


Grouse and woodcock numbers are tied to habitat and weather. Has nothing to do with season dates. No different than pheasant. They never messed with pheasant dates but numbers still declined. 

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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

DirtySteve said:


> Grouse and woodcock numbers are tied to habitat and weather. Has nothing to do with season dates. No different than pheasant. They never messed with pheasant dates but numbers still declined.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Habitat is only a piece of the picture.
We only hunt the good habitat.

The longer the season.

The more I hunt.

The more I harvest.

The less I leave for seed.

To lower deer populations they have extended the amount of time you can hunt deer in which it increases the harvest numbers.

Waterfowl season is federally regulated buy population.
The season was much shorter 35 years ago but with an uptick in population we have been blessed with a longer season and increased bag limits for quite some time now especially the mallard and wood duck daily limit.
Mallards is three drake's and one hen.

Pheasants are not perfect for comparison purposes because we only harvest males.
Michigan expanded deer populations back in the day with very limited doe tags and most were only harvesting bucks.
We don't have the ability to sex certain game easily like grouse and woodcock.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> Grouse and woodcock numbers are tied to habitat and weather. Has nothing to do with season dates. No different than pheasant. They never messed with pheasant dates but numbers still declined.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Given that one would think that the DNR would adjust seasons bag limits up and down at least bi or tri-annually based on habitat chick broods and weather . But they don't. I remember when the grouse limit in the U.P. was five but about 20 years or so it was dropped to three. Going up there now I can show you cuttings and swampy and brushy edges stretching to the horizon and there are not nearly the number of pats up there that there were the first year I went up about 1970 or so. You , also, do not see anywhere the number of locals on their ATVs and pick-ups slowly driving down the two-tracks with a shotgun handy. They say it's just not worth the effort. The limit then was five bit now it's three - why do you think that is ? 

Again, when I started going to the U.P. 1970 or so it was not unusual to see some dog chains along the motel's parkway and anywhere from seven or eight or more GSPs from the Lansing GSP club being fed . Morning breakfast at the motel - two-thirds of the customers were decked out in blaze orange. Now, by and large, I have everything to myself. This didn't happen overnight or suddenly because of a late or wet Spring but rather very slowly over time. As a casual observation from some 50 + years of grouse hunting numbers started slowly declining after the introduction of the Sept. 15th. season and then the December season when combined added 46 days of hunting pressure. 

9mm Hi-Power


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

birdhntr said:


> The less I leave for seed.


I have never seen any study or research that has indicated that hunting mortality is additive to the overall grouse mortality.
Have you seen any that indicate that leaving more for seed adds to the following years population?


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Lucky Dog said:


> I have never seen any study or research that has indicated that hunting mortality is additive to the overall grouse mortality.
> Have you seen any that indicate that leaving more for seed adds to the following years population?


No I have not.
I was just comparing to other wildlife management by season length and harvest numbers as comparison.
Your statement does stir my thoughts however.
If it's not additive why have bag limits.
In fact why have limits for game and fish if it is not additive.
Is it only additive to everything but grouse?
We will never know as long as we keep doing the same over and over.

I used to hunt pieces of land like mad and success and numbers would drop year after year.
Now I impose self limits at each place I run and they are still productive.


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## aphess223 (Aug 1, 2001)

birdhntr said:


> No I have not.
> I was just comparing to other wildlife management by season length and harvest numbers as comparison.
> Your statement does stir my thoughts however.
> If it's not additive why have bag limits.
> ...


Are we exceeding, 
Carrying capacity - Wikipedia


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

birdhntr said:


> No I have not.
> I was just comparing to other wildlife management by season length and harvest numbers as comparison.
> Your statement does stir my thoughts however.
> If it's not additive why have bag limits.
> ...


I think you should contact a biologist to get the answered to all of your questions.
I just simply regurgitate what I have read and heard over the years.
But, since you asked...
First I think you need to limit the discussion to grouse. To try and make any claims using "fish and game" would be wrong.
What I've been told, is that current hunting seasons and regulations are designed to create a compensatory condition with regard to grouse survival. Shortening or lengthening the season and bag limits (within reason) will not have an affect on the overall population. The reason seasons and bag limits exist is to prevent the harvest from becoming additive to the overall survival of grouse.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

aphess223 said:


> Are we exceeding,
> Carrying capacity - Wikipedia


Are we?


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Lucky Dog said:


> I think you should contact a biologist to get the answered to all of your questions.
> I just simply regurgitate what I have read and heard over the years.
> But, since you asked...
> First I think you need to limit the discussion to grouse. To try and make any claims using "fish and game" would be wrong.
> What I've been told, is that current hunting seasons and regulations are designed to create a compensatory condition with regard to grouse survival. Shortening or lengthening the season and bag limits (within reason) will not have an affect on the overall population. The reason seasons and bag limits exist is to prevent the harvest from becoming additive to the overall survival of grouse.





Lucky Dog said:


> I think you should contact a biologist to get the answered to all of your questions.
> I just simply regurgitate what I have read and heard over the years.
> But, since you asked...
> First I think you need to limit the discussion to grouse. To try and make any claims using "fish and game" would be wrong.
> What I've been told, is that current hunting seasons and regulations are designed to create a compensatory condition with regard to grouse survival. Shortening or lengthening the season and bag limits (within reason) will not have an affect on the overall population. The reason seasons and bag limits exist is to prevent the harvest from becoming additive to the overall survival of grouse.


I am just questioning the logic.
I also believe that I have certainly affected some of my spots including my parents place mainly because I was told that I would not affect the population.
We were taking a lot of birds there and it became less productive year after year. I'd guess we were around 30 to 40 a year and worked down to a few.
On the down cycle years was our best oddly and on the up cycle was slow.

It is loaded with grouse food.
Hordes of grouse apples, autumn olive,beech nuts,black caps, acorns,popple,Aspen,
Cedar,pines,and a brook running through it.
Absolutely perfect Grouse land.

I have talked to biologist's and have read just about everything under the sun.
So when we talk about grouse it is apparent that it is different than all other wildlife for some reason.

I still hunt the same areas as I have since the late eighties.
We would just walk in lines and move so many grouse back then but I just don't see what I used to see back then in the northern lower.


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

I think way many more grouse are kill by habitat destruction than hunting. I don't see how hunting can even make a dent. Most Grouse never hear a dog bell in their short lifetime. The majority of grouse killed by hunters are killed by road hunters in trucks or on ATV trails. I don't even think we (bird dog hunters) even scratch the surface of their habitat. Some habitat is pressured more than other but where I hunt there is no pressure even during peak season. I would like the season to be the same length but just shifted out 2 weeks. Too many tics, bugs, too much heat for the dogs... Just my 2 cents.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

amon said:


> I'm in favor of a longer and later season, but firearms deer should be off limits for anything else. It's a safety issue.


I think it's a safety issue for the first 5 days the season, after that the deer hunters are pretty much gone. I think if grouse hunting were open during the entire firearm season (like almost every other state) there would very few guys doing much during the first week and then after that there would be a few (myself included). Thanksgiving would be an amazing time to hunt grouse.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> Given that one would think that the DNR would adjust seasons bag limits up and down at least bi or tri-annually based on habitat chick broods and weather . But they don't. I remember when the grouse limit in the U.P. was five but about 20 years or so it was dropped to three. Going up there now I can show you cuttings and swampy and brushy edges stretching to the horizon and there are not nearly the number of pats up there that there were the first year I went up about 1970 or so. You , also, do not see anywhere the number of locals on their ATVs and pick-ups slowly driving down the two-tracks with a shotgun handy. They say it's just not worth the effort. The limit then was five bit now it's three - why do you think that is ?
> 
> Again, when I started going to the U.P. 1970 or so it was not unusual to see some dog chains along the motel's parkway and anywhere from seven or eight or more GSPs from the Lansing GSP club being fed . Morning breakfast at the motel - two-thirds of the customers were decked out in blaze orange. Now, by and large, I have everything to myself. This didn't happen overnight or suddenly because of a late or wet Spring but rather very slowly over time. As a casual observation from some 50 + years of grouse hunting numbers started slowly declining after the introduction of the Sept. 15th. season and then the December season when combined added 46 days of hunting pressure.
> 
> 9mm Hi-Power


Grouse limit is 5 in the UP. As shown in the pic below from last fall.
Still can manage to find a few if you find new spots and change to where "the grouse want to be".


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

BIGSP said:


> Grouse limit is 5 in the UP. As shown in the pic below from last fall.
> Still can manage to find a few if you find new spots and change to where "the grouse want to be".


For someone who introduced you to the U.P. and grouse hunting in general circa. 2003 or so haven't seen much of you lately. Greener grass ? Nice photo of Aden - what kind of a shotgun is he using ? Still the .28 ga. Ruger Red Label ? 

9mm Hi-Power


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

1917








1917 without the modern conveniences of modern times.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

birdhntr said:


> 1917 without the modern conveniences of modern times.


Also, 1917, right in the middle of the entire state being turned into grouse habitat.


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

BIGGSP,
that does not look like a GSP.


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## bheary (Dec 29, 2010)

All shot from horseback instead of truck bed

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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Lucky Dog said:


> Also, 1917, right in the middle of the entire state being turned into grouse habitat.


I am referencing one picture of many that are available.
Imagine how many shot opportunities it takes for such a harvest.
I have read many of articles and have had the opportunity to here first hand stories from elders and family.
My dad went to Seney area in 1960 with his father.
According to my dad the group was seeing well over a 100 birds every day with some days around a 200 he assumed.
In the group the elders generation was saying "Norm(my grandfather) that it's just not what it used to be".
My dad was 16 at the time and my grandfather was 43.
The others in the group were likely in there 60's and 70's considering that they were acquaintances of my great grandfather and were in the horse trade with him.
My great grandfather had one famous stud and many of fine Percherons.(work horses) used for logging.
His stud was very valuable and horses even came from across the pond(Europe) to be bred.
The horse trade is how they were hooked up with hunting the UP.

The discussion about Grouse numbers and the ability to create a stronger population seems to always be answered with the same dialogue in debate with carrying capacity and hunting not affecting populations and carryover for seed.
I feel carrying capacity can be much higher as well as the population.
I feel we are stuck on a tipping point struggling to maintain what we have now.
How and what produced the population numbers back then as compared to now.


I guess I am just a dreamer wishing to have a special experience from the past or one in the future.
Grouse hunting from the past to the present is similar to pheasant hunting Michigan then having the special experience in the Dakota's.
We can't compare grouse with other wildlife population management strategies just seems odd to me that it is stated that it isn't possible and hunting has no affect.
I really shouldn't say much because
I have days where I move 50 grouse a day and even had double that on woodcock with some pretty busy weekends on numbers of contacts.


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

Sounds like what's needed to produce high numbers of grouse is large tracts of land in grouse country that are in a continuous rotation of maturity but never allowed to be past mature long, tracts that don't have a road or trail making it into a checkerboard and without an overabundance of bird hunters.
Something like that isn't likely again in Michigan unfortunately, but there are places if a person is willing to travel. 
Still, there's plenty of little pockets scattered all over Michigan that can and do support locally dense grouse numbers. I'm thankful for the opportunities I've had. Happy hunting!


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## frankster2021 (Oct 17, 2021)

How many Acres of 0-5, 5-10,10-15 yr old Aspen do we have?
This would be an interesting stat to get from the DNR.
I don't think we have enough right now.
We have way too much old Aspen in some areas according to my un-scientific review from ihunt last Fall.
For example, there are some really huge tracks of Aspen that are really old in the North Eastern Region.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

frankster2021 said:


> How many Acres of 0-5, 5-10,10-15 yr old Aspen do we have?
> This would be an interesting stat to get from the DNR.
> I don't think we have enough right now.
> We have way too much old Aspen in some areas according to my un-scientific review from ihunt last Fall.
> For example, there are some really huge tracks of Aspen that are really old in the North Eastern Region.


The MI-hunt feature on the DNR sote spells all that out for you in your area. It is fairly accurate. Check it out. When you find habitat you like that is giving you success do some research on the site and see how many areas have the same makeup of trees and age class around you. Its a usefull tool vs burning gas and looking. 

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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

frankster2021 said:


> How many Acres of 0-5, 5-10,10-15 yr old Aspen do we have?


I don't know the acreage, but with my research, I found that there is almost 8000 individual Aspen cuts between the age of zero and 20 years old.
That is any type of cut with an aspen component to it.


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## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

I agree with lucky dog, and a few others, on the effect, or lack of effect, of hunting on grouse populations

I know I face social media landmines when I say this - where people with different ideas attack you and demand that you 'prove it' when you have a different opinion than they do, rather than learning of additional info. sad.

but I write to share info I have read for decades with those who are interested in the subject

I have read so many articles over 7 decades on grouse hunting. occasionally, articles convey research on the effects of hunting pressure on grouse populations from a number of different states. consistently thru the years and across states, clear statements have been made that hunting pressure has NO effect on populations. note that they all said NO effect, they didn't say 'very little' effect.

some of these reports came from states that set aside acreage and posted no hunting signs to compare to acreage where hunting was allowed

predators and lost habitat were the two factors determining grouse populations, per the research

a decade or so ago, Michigan dnr, via a grant for MSU students, said they were going to study the effect of grouse hunting on populations. I thought it a pure waste of taxpayer money, since just before that MN and WI both shared their findings that hunting pressure had NO effect on populations. I awaited 'our results'. sure enough, they found NO effect. government at its finest! duh!

I was always happy to hear that my hunting and bagging of grouse was not affecting the long term populations

no, I don't have these reports to 'prove anything'. except in the files of my brain. haha

for what it is worth to those who want to get info.....


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

TheHighLIfe said:


> I agree with lucky dog, and a few others, on the effect, or lack of effect, of hunting on grouse populations
> 
> I know I face social media landmines when I say this - where people with different ideas attack you and demand that you 'prove it' when you have a different opinion than they do, rather than learning of additional info. sad.
> 
> ...


There were two sizable test parcels over by Tawas.
Well posted, back in early 90’s.
Those were the findings.
”Hunting pressure is compensatory, not additive.”

BUT!

Hunting pressures, especially skirmish line hunting, can have an effect at the small parcel level.
And that makes sense. Efficient predator density, small parcel, high pressure.

The theory that grouse move about like fish, replenishing the best coverts naturally, is still under study I think.
We know young males move about in Oct-Nov, seeking their own territories.
Not clear to me yet on female/ nesting success movement yet.

So, you can kill them all in a small parcel.

Might be more satisfying not to.


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## kzoofisher (Mar 6, 2011)

Burton Spiller always said leave some for seed. My shooting makes that an easy code to live by. 😁


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## Kevin Moeller (May 24, 2018)

TheHighLIfe said:


> I agree with lucky dog, and a few others, on the effect, or lack of effect, of hunting on grouse populations
> 
> I know I face social media landmines when I say this - where people with different ideas attack you and demand that you 'prove it' when you have a different opinion than they do, rather than learning of additional info. sad.
> 
> ...


This. Hunting grouse, just like the C&R smallmouth season, has no effect on populations.


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## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

Kevin Moeller said:


> This. Hunting grouse, just like the C&R smallmouth season, has no effect on populations.


kevin

while I totally agree with your grouse hunting opinion, there is one difference between that and c&r smallmouth
which is we are not shooting grouse during breeding season


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

In the late 80's I took an ornithology class taught by Dr. Stan Harris and an upland game management class by Dr. Rudy Gutierrez at Humboldt State, I was a wildlife mgt major. 

Interestingly they both referred to non-additive mortality as being non-compensatory mortality. Looking at current definition online that seems off, but anyways. They both presented, with published studies, that dove were the only game bird that had non-compensatory mortality. 

Their example was assume there were 10 million dove. Predation, disease, severe weather, vehicle strikes or whatever kill 4 million a year. Breeding brings the population back to 10 million. Introduce hunting, hunters kill 1 million birds a year. Predation, disease, etc will kill another 3 million resulting in the same overall mortality and population rebound.



Lucky Dog said:


> I have never seen any study or research that has indicated that hunting mortality is additive to the overall grouse mortality.
> Have you seen any that indicate that leaving more for seed adds to the following years population?


I have probably read a few studies indicating such, but after 30 years, couldnt tell ya. If Harris/Gutierrez were correct, then yes, grouse hunting is additive. Perhaps its tied into home ranges and dispersal distances, which would seem increadibly small compared to dove.



Lucky Dog said:


> I think you should contact a biologist to get the answered to all of your questions.
> I just simply regurgitate what I have read and heard over the years.
> But, since you asked...
> First I think you need to limit the discussion to grouse. To try and make any claims using "fish and game" would be wrong.
> What I've been told, is that current hunting seasons and regulations are designed to create a compensatory condition with regard to grouse survival. Shortening or lengthening the season and bag limits (within reason) will not have an affect on the overall population. The reason seasons and bag limits exist is to prevent the harvest from becoming additive to the overall survival of grouse.


If truly compensatory the season length and limits would have no effect. Compensatory and additive are not the same.



TheHighLIfe said:


> I agree with lucky dog, and a few others, on the effect, or lack of effect, of hunting on grouse populations.......but I write to share info I have read for decades with those who are interested in the subject..... Michigan dnr, via a grant for MSU students, said they were going to study the effect of grouse hunting on populations. I thought it a pure waste of taxpayer money, since just before that MN and WI both shared their findings that hunting pressure had NO effect on populations. I awaited 'our results'. sure enough, they found NO effect......


Do you have of those studies bookmarked? I'm not looking for you to prove your statement, though i disagree with it, just trying to save research time on yet another rabbit hole. I'm stuck at the hall today with time to kill, but my laptop is down and digging with a phone sucks.

Btw, made a great shot on a woodcock yesterday and missed a freebie grouse. It's a great time of the year in the woods.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

TheHighLIfe said:


> kevin
> 
> while I totally agree with your grouse hunting opinion, there is one difference between that and c&r smallmouth
> which is we are not shooting grouse during breeding season


We are not shooting smallmouth during breeding season either lol.

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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Lightfoot said:


> Interestingly they both referred to non-additive mortality as being non-compensatory mortality. Looking at current definition online that seems off, but anyways. They both presented, with published studies, that dove were the only game bird that had non-compensatory mortality.
> 
> Their example was assume there were 10 million dove. Predation, disease, severe weather, vehicle strikes or whatever kill 4 million a year. Breeding brings the population back to 10 million. Introduce hunting, hunters kill 1 million birds a year. Predation, disease, etc will kill another 3 million resulting in the same overall mortality and population rebound.


This is the thing people also dont get with the C&r smallmouth fishing. All those males that come up on beds. Only 25-50% even spawn that year. The ones that actually do fertilize thousands of eggs and only need 2-3 fry to make it to adulthood for a healthy population. All those fish we feel are being protected by not allowing C&R end up as part of the food chain anyway. Nothing changes. 

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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

Now your talking cohorts.

Interesting note. Save the turtles, save the turtles. Protecting young turtles as they make the perilous treck from the nest to the surf has no impact on turtle populations and is nothing more than touchy feely, visual feel good actions by I'll informed people. Target adults turtles victim to shrimp trawlers and plastic garbage for the win.


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

I'll eat a little bit of humble pie, but not the whole thing. Limited reading with the phone suggest compensatory mortality to a certain percentage threshold that varied greatly by study before moving to an additive mortality. 

I have to admit reading and researching about grouse beats the he'll out of deer and cwd. Grouse distribution, hunter pressure and location, habitat fragmentation, dispersal and the list goes on. Good stuff.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Lightfoot said:


> I'll eat a little bit of humble pie, but not the whole thing. Limited reading with the phone suggest compensatory mortality to a certain percentage threshold that varied greatly by study before moving to an additive mortality.
> 
> I have to admit reading and researching about grouse beats the he'll out of deer and cwd. Grouse distribution, hunter pressure and location, habitat fragmentation, dispersal and the list goes on. Good stuff.


All you really need to know, is you can shoot out a covert.

It Is of no concern to me if anyone believes that or not.


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## Sharkey (Oct 29, 2010)

Gamekeeper said:


> All you really need to know, is you can shoot out a covert.
> 
> It Is of no concern to me if anyone believes that or not.


I agree wether you care or not. 


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

I don't doubt that.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

People misinterpret the research and use it in a twisted fashion to legitimize covert pounding.


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## Zeboy (Oct 4, 2002)

Several people have referenced the study from 30 years ago. I will try to post several photos of the original DNR pamphlet ( a little hard to read because it's a pamphlet) and some write ups from the North Woods Call. Hopefully you can zoom in enough to read them if you're interested.







View attachment 856583


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## Zeboy (Oct 4, 2002)

Info
View attachment 856585
View attachment 856586









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## Zeboy (Oct 4, 2002)

For some reason it's only letting me post 1 photo per post.









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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

Gamekeeper said:


> Surround that same thermal cover with four guys and auto loaders, and you can have your grouse banquet on the cover of the record eagle.
> 
> 10% of the hunters capture 90% of the game.


I happily choose not to do that and my CZ sxs suits me just fine. Granted in my area, I don't see 4 guys with autoloaders that time of the season. Actually, I seldom see anybody.


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## fowl (Feb 15, 2003)

I think a lot of this conversation depends on scale. At the scale of one covert, absolutely harvest can have an impact. At a large landscape scale, probably compensatory. A blip on the radar. I think there are also many factors that play in to grouse numbers year to year. Too complicated to simplify down to one factor such as hunter harvest. 


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

fowl said:


> I think a lot of this conversation depends on scale. At the scale of one covert, absolutely harvest can have an impact. At a large landscape scale, probably compensatory. A blip on the radar. I think there are also many factors that play in to grouse numbers year to year. Too complicated to simplify down to one factor such as hunter harvest.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


You can only do what you do.

At the landscape level pockets of cover are wide spread dots.
Good hunters hit the spots, skip the rest.
The landscape argument is illusory.
Because people go where they found birds previously by and large.
In other words, back to the dots.

I always presume in middle mi, every good piece of cover gets many hunters per season.

I don’t ascribe to the wellspring concept. There isn’t some hidden fountain of un disturbed grouse generating habitat in lower Michigan.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

What percentage of grouse hunters are: 

1. Skilled enough (dogs/shotgun/etc.)
2. Have/make the time
3. Have the drive to continue getting after it.

To make a difference in the population. Very few have all 3. You can’t stockpile Grouse. What percentage of mortality do hunters make up in Michigan? I hunt some in December and never see other grouse hunters that time of year. 

I do believe the top 10% of the hunters kill the majority of the birds. The other 90% are killing a few birds a season or less. Hitting the same cover over and over can get boring. I like gamekeepers 1/3’s idea. Other than that pocket of the swamp with the big red drummer that we always find and can’t kill I like trying to find the new spots.


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

I like the 1/3 concept as well, just wish I was better at it. I am constantly looking for new spots, spending way too much time throughout the year looking at onx, google earth, old timber harvest maps, fire maps and talking with people. Then it falls back on lack of time to commit boots on the ground, and I make small changes to the general areas I already hunt. Life is way too busy for me to excel at any of the 3 above.


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## aphess223 (Aug 1, 2001)

Interesting article in the Alpena News today on climate change and forest health.
I don't have a link.
aphess223


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