# looking for anyone that has bought a dog from Muddy Creek Kennels Japer Mo.



## vonnahmb

Just wonder how anyones experience was with this kennel and Craig.


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## coverdog

That would be our buddy Craig Burns? He has developed quite a reputation here. Don't do it.:yikes::yikes:

This is a good reason locked threads should not be removed. They can be used for research.


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## Socks

If, and I say IF, this is the same person that a thread was done on about a year ago I would shy away or do a ton of research and get a lot of references. There was a guy on here who had a rough go of it getting a dog from a breeder in MO from that area. Two sides to every story, but I'd rather just have a warm fuzzy than end up part of a story. Are you looking for a GSP? There some people here in MI that have good GSP's from what I hear. Good luck!


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## midwestfisherman

:yikes::yikes: IBL!


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## NATTY BUMPO

coverdog said:


> That would be our buddy Craig Burns? He has developed quite a reputation here. Don't do it.:yikes::yikes:
> 
> This is a good reason locked threads should not be removed. They can be used for research.


SPOT ON.

That thread ran several pages of charges, countercharges, name calling and, in the middle, a "started" GSP from Muddy Creek that turned out to be gun shy, bird shy, people shy and "scared of his own shadow".

Can anyone resurect that thread, as a public service?? Inquiring minds want to know.

NB


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## tailcrackin

I have put my hands on several of the dogs outta this particular kennel, and have not had a bad one to work with. The 3 last year where steady to wing shot an kill, natural retrieve, they broke out 4-5 mo, 1 took six mo. on the kill aspect, she took just a little longer to understand.
I did 7 year before, 4 steady to wing an shot, 3 steady threw the kill. No probs in training on any of them. All had ton of desire, had a head of sense, enjoyed working and really enjoyed retrieving. Pm me, I will tell you waht I personally saw, and worked with.

There is two sides to both stories, craig said his, and the other said his....mean a hill a beans? Nope, it doesnt, sounded like a big misunderstanding, and should not have been handled the way it was, by members here, or the other boards it got dragged to. Unfortunately there were alot of true colors shown by people that it wasnt really any of their business. Thanks, Jonesy


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## tailcrackin

Another thing, I am in no way, shape or form sticking up for what Craig does, or how he does it, that aint none of my business. And isnt gonna be any of my business.

I am sticking up for the dogs I have touched outta his kennel, his dogs sold that have been here, are good to work with, and had no issues. Very trainable. Thanks again, Jonesy


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## coverdog

tailcrackin said:


> and should not have been handled the way it was,


That was the worst part of the whole story.


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## metro49

I'm just curious about our poster.


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## midwestfisherman

metro49 said:


> I'm just curious about our poster.


Quite a question for for his second post! :16suspect


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## metro49

midwestfisherman said:


> Quite a question for for his second post! :16suspect


Do tell. My thought exactly.


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## Rugergundog

I would suspect that you could be given a contract or something of sorts from a breeder. I see many have such a thing. Shooters short hairs has a pretty intensive contract. Something like that could be a good help if indeed things went hay wire.

But on a side note if its a GSP you want. Good GSP breeders are pretty common; many with no such allegations to even fret over.


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## Rudi's Dad

I ran across this thread on another BB http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=13835


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## NATTY BUMPO

Dick,

Thanks for posting this account of Muddy Creek's business practices. 

It somehow sounds very familiar to that previous thread, doesnt it??

Natty B.


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## dogwhistle

Rugergundog said:


> I would suspect that you could be given a contract or something of sorts from a breeder. I see many have such a thing. Shooters short hairs has a pretty intensive contract. Something like that could be a good help if indeed things went hay wire.
> 
> But on a side note if its a GSP you want. Good GSP breeders are pretty common; many with no such allegations to even fret over.


 
a friend of mine is a pretty high level attorney, hunting dog owner, and one of my hunting partners. we've discussed those dog buying contracts. they are of no value whatsoever as they are unenforceable from a practical standpoint. it would cost far more than all but an extremely expensive trial champion is worth to enforce the contract. and travel time to another state to testify, that would also be more expensive than the pup.

if the breeder were close by, you might be able to file a small claims suit. but even if you won, you would have a great deal of difficulity enforcing the judgement.

the only real guarantee is buying from a breeder raising high quality with a good reputation, that takes pride in what he does and has a strong sense of ethics. those written contracts are just a marketing device.


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## metro49

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Dick,
> 
> Thanks for posting this account of Muddy Creek's business practices.
> 
> *It somehow sounds very familiar to that previous thread, doesnt it??*
> 
> Natty B.


It sure does. Especially the posters name.


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## geojasstef

Wasn't the original thread delete from this forum? It would have been a great referance.


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## Steelheadfred

No Dog in this fight but there are so many good solid GSP breeders in our state - even on this board that traveling out of sense does not make much sense to me.

Crosswinds, Abbey Lane, Chris Ritter (member here has a great GSP), Scott Steele. I have watched all of the above folks dogs, and dont think you could/can go wrong with any of them. I am sure I left out a slew of other GSP's folks also.


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## GSP Gal

Steelheadfred said:


> No Dog in this fight but there are so many good solid GSP breeders in our state - even on this board that traveling out of sense does not make much sense to me.
> 
> Crosswinds, Abbey Lane, Chris Ritter (member here has a great GSP), Scott Steele. I have watched all of the above folks dogs, and dont think you could/can go wrong with any of them. I am sure I left out a slew of other GSP's folks also.


I have some very nice shorhairs, and all were bred and purchased right here in this state. Like dogwhistle said, go with good referrals.


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## Firemedic

Avoid the headache and buy a Crosswind's dog.


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## wyle_e_coyote

Steelheadfred said:


> No Dog in this fight but there are so many good solid GSP breeders in our state - even on this board that traveling out of sense does not make much sense to me.


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## vonnahmb

I am not the original guy who posted on here about the kennel, my experience is very recent and actually am looking to contact the guy that had a similiar experience, I watered down my post and hoped he would see it and contact me. I recieved an email from a guy that frequents this forum and I will respect his wishes not to be named and he suggested I post and see if I could get ahold of him. I am in no way out to bash anyone if they do the right thing and stand behind the dogs they sell this could have been resolved privately and with no hard feeling on either part but that just has not been the case. I believe I may have gotten the same dog because I was told he had been previously sold but the guy had backed out.


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## Rugergundog

Wowza; i read the other post. Man i would for sure do some investigation before a deposit was made.

I do agree, lots of local breeders some on this board who have a good repuations for good dogs!


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## Gina Fox

dogwhistle said:


> a friend of mine is a pretty high level attorney, hunting dog owner, and one of my hunting partners. we've discussed those dog buying contracts. they are of no value whatsoever as they are unenforceable from a practical standpoint. it would cost far more than all but an extremely expensive trial champion is worth to enforce the contract. and travel time to another state to testify, that would also be more expensive than the pup.
> 
> if the breeder were close by, you might be able to file a small claims suit. but even if you won, you would have a great deal of difficulity enforcing the judgement.
> 
> the only real guarantee is buying from a breeder raising high quality with a good reputation, that takes pride in what he does and has a strong sense of ethics. those written contracts are just a marketing device.


 
Sorry Dog, I disagree (respectfully of course)

Contracts are NEEDED by the breeder & the buyer, they are not required by the State of Michigan. They are simply to protect both parties. A contract should state for WHAT you warranty your pups and for how long.

Now...as a person who breeds Viz from great hunting lines it is my job to match up a dog with good potential to someone who wants a bird dog. BUT a lot can go wrong between the time someone takes a pup from me to the time they start training. Most of it NOT the dogs fault... 

My contract states my preferences for spay or neuter (or I should say NOT doing that until the appropriate age) temperament warranty and a health warranty for 10 days after it goes to its new home against any major communicable disease...parvo, distemper...IF the owner never provides subsequent vaccinations and I don't have in writing how long I warranty a pup for...that means forever...

Contracts are a big bone of contention even amongst breeders...some are very elaborate and restricting...and frankly IMHO, ridiculous. I happen to believe that when you purchase a dog it is YOUR personal property. I am always available to my clients...for training advice or ANY reason they need to talk to me. Its a package deal. They get the dog and me...
My contract is one page and pretty basic. My biggest concern is if the dog doesn't work out...that it comes BACK TO ME and doesn't get passed around or stuck in a rescue or shelter somewhere. I feel that I bring them into the world and it is my job to make sure they end up in the best homes...forever. 

If for anyreason it doesn't work out...my job to take them back. 

In 23 years, only 1 dog has come back. 

Any (kind) contract can be broken IF they are so restrictive that the owner feels a need to break them. I have never had anyone want to break mine.


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## dogwhistle

ma'am, i dont know what german shorthairs sell for, $500, maybe even $1000? check out the hourly rates of attorneys and the total cost of litigation. many times the cost of the dog. and if it were from another state, it would be many times that plus your transportation and lodging for several court appearances.

and even if you got a judgement, you have no way of enforcing it. it's not nearly as simple as some of you folks think it is. dog contracts are fairly unique to dogs. some of my friends are in the horse business and trade horses worth whole kennels of top notch dogs on only a hand shake.

i used to own a strain of setter where contracts/guarnatees were pretty common among the breeders. mostly they were selling a lot of junk and marketing it with the paper.


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## Gina Fox

dogwhistle said:


> ma'am, i dont know what german shorthairs sell for, $500, maybe even $1000? check out the hourly rates of attorneys and the total cost of litigation. many times the cost of the dog. and if it were from another state, it would be many times that plus your transportation and lodging for several court appearances.
> 
> and even if you got a judgement, you have no way of enforcing it. it's not nearly as simple as some of you folks think it is. dog contracts are fairly unique to dogs. some of my friends are in the horse business and trade horses worth whole kennels of top notch dogs on only a hand shake.
> 
> i used to own a strain of setter where contracts/guarnatees were pretty common among the breeders. mostly they were selling a lot of junk and marketing it with the paper.


 
Again I think you miss my point. I will tell you a story.

24 years ago when I bought my kennel the previous owner had left about a dozen dogs. Without going into to many details I will tell you that one of the females (poodle) was pregnant. I whelped the litter, raised them up, gave them cute little haircuts, wormed and vaccinated but since it wasn't MY breeding I was reluctant to sell them on a contract. So off they went.

4 months later I was contacted by one of the buyers. It seems her little female had died of parvo. I questioned her whether or not she had vaccinated the dog...she said "No, I couldn't afford it"

She wanted a refund.
I refused. I figured EVERYBODY KNEW you had to provide vaccinations for pups...she took me to court. I had to refund her the FULL purchase price of the dog. Why? BECAUSE I did not have a 'warranty' and because there was no written warranty stating how long or for what...that meant for everything FOREVER...

Contracts protect the seller and the buyer and clearly spell out who, what, when and for how long... 

Now I do know of some contracts that dog show people use to make sure the dog is shown according to the breeders wishes, some even go so far to say WHO must show the dog...and where. I would never deal with someone that had an excessively restricting contract or someone who has none...just the same a contract is better than none for breeders and owners alike. Whether you choose to pursue the terms to fulfillment or to the letter is strictly up to the purchaser. Additionally most of these cases are SMALL CLAIMS and attornies are not involved with small claims court...I believe it is anything under $2500.00 Im sure there are attornies on this site that will correct me if I am mistaken.


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## Rugergundog

dogwhistle said:


> ma'am, i dont know what german shorthairs sell for, $500, maybe even $1000? check out the hourly rates of attorneys and the total cost of litigation. many times the cost of the dog. and if it were from another state, it would be many times that plus your transportation and lodging for several court appearances.
> 
> and even if you got a judgement, you have no way of enforcing it. it's not nearly as simple as some of you folks think it is. dog contracts are fairly unique to dogs. some of my friends are in the horse business and trade horses worth whole kennels of top notch dogs on only a hand shake.
> 
> i used to own a strain of setter where contracts/guarnatees were pretty common among the breeders. mostly they were selling a lot of junk and marketing it with the paper.


 
As true as your opinion is about contracts I think that most honest people who are both buying and selling are more comfortable with a transaction that has a contract.......or in this case living warranty or guarantee if you will. True when it comes right down to it, it may not be worth a hill of beans; but for most I would suspect if they take the time to create such a document they likely have some faith in the product they off; in this case a GSP.

But as others have said and EVERY single dog book i have ever read about buying a puppy the buy should research both the sire and dam, see both in person if possible; see both hunt, have full pedigrees on hand and then see the pup interact with other dogs, people and a bird wing. If I am paying $500+ for a dog you are damn sure I am going to make sure of all that. Now buying a dog for a few bucks from a back yard breeder you may not get all those privledges........and that is reflected in the lower price. Free dogs you don't get nothing but a hand shake.........$1000 dogs you better get a full test drive and lunch!


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## dogwhistle

you wont see contracts among the high grade setter and pointer breeders. Grouse Ridge setters, Longgone setters, Grouse River here in Mich and some other high quality breeders that sometimes participate on this forum dont do contracts.

personally, i wouldnt bother looking at a pup if the breeder wanted me to sign a contract. you would probably buy a used truck for many thousands of dollars, i did not long ago, and not expect a guarantee or a contract. why expect it for a $500 pup? it's a pet dog thing.

by the way Gina, you didnt have a lawyer in your lawsuit did you? my guess is that you represented yourself in small claims court.


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## Llewellin

Firemedic said:


> Avoid the headache and buy a Crosswind's dog.


I second that


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## dogwhistle

Rugergundog said:


> As true as your opinion is about contracts I think that most honest people who are both buying and selling are more comfortable with a transaction that has a contract.......or in this case living warranty or guarantee if you will. True when it comes right down to it, it may not be worth a hill of beans; but for most I would suspect if they take the time to create such a document they likely have some faith in the product they off; in this case a GSP.
> 
> But as others have said and EVERY single dog book i have ever read about buying a puppy the buy should research both the sire and dam, see both in person if possible; see both hunt, have full pedigrees on hand and then see the pup interact with other dogs, people and a bird wing. If I am paying $500+ for a dog you are damn sure I am going to make sure of all that. Now buying a dog for a few bucks from a back yard breeder you may not get all those privledges........and that is reflected in the lower price. Free dogs you don't get nothing but a hand shake.........$1000 dogs you better get a full test drive and lunch!


i consider $500 a bargain for a pup. i cant speak for other breeds but there are a lot of FDSB setter pups available by champion, even national champion sires and out of high quality dams for $500.

but most often, the sire is in another state. going from state to state, looking at sires of different litters is not practical. and neither is it practical for the owner of the dam to take prospective buyers, a minimum of 7 or 8 out hunting to see the sire and dam hunt. you have to rely on the reputation of the sire and maybe word of mouth and what you see of the dam. most buyers own so few dogs in their lifetime that they cant objectively evaluate them. they rely on the reputation of the kennel and the kennel owner, which is wise. if you are buying a started or finished dog you should see the dog work on pen raised birds, but that's it. but even a breeder, backyard or otherwise, isnt going to haul all the potential buyers up to his grouse cover to see the parents work.

and their is a lot of misunderstanding about contracts and small claims court. if one party doesnt agree, the case must be held in general court with attorneys representing the clients. highly expensive. and small claims only cover monetary damage, not performance of the contract. and if the dog is bought in another state, traveling to that state just to file a small clalim is very expensive and time consuming.

contracts are not a guarantee of quality. there is no absolute guarantee of that. the best a buyer can do is go on reputation and performance. and if you buy from a breeder with integrity, small or large, he will make things right as far as is reasonable. if i dont trust the breeder, then i wont rely on a contract to protect me.


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## midwestfisherman

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=13835


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## coverdog




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## nowicki2005

if you are going to buy in montana why not just buy from perfection kennels


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## BradU20

coverdog said:


>












It keeps getting better....


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## mag7

I am back, i have been gone hunting for a wile now. I am the guy who started this whole thing a year ago i got the dog from craig burns and muddy creek kennels her name was lilly and she was scared to death no way was she worth the 1500 buck i paied for her.
I to wish the thread was not taken down so this poor guy did not have to go through the hell i went through.
any way contact me and ill help you with what ever i can .

By the way after i sent the dog back he put her back on his web site for sale e mailing me saying thear was nothing wrong with her LOL


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## vonnahmb

I have resolved any dispute I had with Craig and Muddy Creek, maybe I was a little bit out of line the way I approached the problem, maybe he was a little as well, to make a long story short we set our disagreements aside and came to a resolution and he stood behind his dog and gave me a refund. Therefore I will make it clear that he is a man of his word and I don't have anything negative to say about him or his Kennel. I appreciate everyones advice and support and have a good new year!!!


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## N M Mechanical

good to hear that it is resolved.


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## Rudi's Dad

Glad you got things set right.


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