# Why do some labs point?



## Zbirdman

I just signed up on this site after looking at the results of the pointing dog challenge and saw some questions/assertions in that thread about whether or not labs really point naturally or have been trained to point, and, having spent many hours researching that question - or, better put, trying to understand what is behind the answer that I already knew to be true (some labs do point naturally)... I thought I would share my findings here...

It is totally dependent upon genetics!

Some labs have the gene to point, most don't!

Don't forget, the breed is called Labrador Retrievers, not Labrador Flushers. Who says a dog with natural instinct to retriever can't also have natural instincts to point first, instead of flush??

Why would some labs have the genes to point, you ask?

Although there is not much written about why PLs point, and there are certainly many opinions about whether they really do or should, I can tell you from my experience with my two PL's (and being around many others) that real PL's (with the gene) most definitely do point naturally. Here the most plausable explanation that I have found as to why....

Over 150 years ago, the original labs (called St John's dogs) brought to England from Newfoundland were bred with pointers and the gene is still there today in some labs because of those breedings... 

Here is a link to the article in Outdoor Life that tells that story:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/node/45291

To those that may think that labs only point because they have been trained to do so, there is a big difference between a dog that is "on point" because of some innate instinct that is causing the behavior vs a dog that simply stands still when it smells a bird. You can definitely tell the difference. The former is intensely focused and may be stiff with some body parts even vibrating with excitement. The latter is standing there with a ho-hum sort of attitude and my even be looking around at other things that catch the dogs attention. 

To be clear, even a natural pointer can be made to lose intensity while on point if exposed to poor training (too much pressure, force fetching too early etc), however, a dog lacking the gene can never be made to point with an instinct-driven intensity.

To illustrate the former, take a look at this 6 1/2 week old pup out of my dog, Bear, and my buddy's female, Star.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-MPic1JH4I"]Bold Bear Video: Bear x Star Red Collar Pup - "Turbo Pointer" Prepares to Rock the PL World! - YouTube[/ame]

This puppy had been demonstrating this strong pointing behavior for 30 minutes, when I suddenly remembered that I had my video camera and started this video. She was actually holding the points longer in the beginning, but still had amazing focus to remain "birdy" for so long. Most pups get distracted by the butterfly that flies by.

Does this look like trained behavior??

By the way, both mom and dad of this little girl also pointed before they even left the litter.

Hope this sheds some light on the topic.

Bob

P.S. Never really thought abou this til now, but, since Labs being bred with pointers way back when is the likely source of the pointing instinct in some Labs today, I suppose, those same breedings in England could also be the source for the retrieving instinct in some pointers today? Hmmm..


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## Ronnem

Do you have any evidence backing your claim? I and others have been studying this "theory" for quite some time, please enlighten us, tell us what loci in what gene or allele this is taking place at so we can just go right to it and test. How did you rule out Behavioral Variation? What about Behavioral Phenotyping? 

Ron


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## Brian121208

Cute puppy video. Kinda looks like what we play with our cats, but our cats seem to pause a bit longer. Try a laser pointer or flashlight to realy get em excited.


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## dallasdog

just ask Len Jenkins


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## midwestfisherman




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## Zbirdman

Wasn't trying to start a fight or even a debate gentlemen!!

Just thought I would provide the info in the Outdoor life article, because, as I said, it seems like the most plausible explanation on why some labs point and to respond to someone's assertion that it must be trained behavior.

Also, I did not realize the sensitivity of what has already gone on on this site for some time. If I did, I would not have made the post at all.

As the author of the post, if I can find a delete button, I will delete it... Don't see one so far though...

By the way, and I have said this on other sites before, and I truly believe it... I see zero value in any "my breed is better than your breed" discussion and was not trying to start one of those strings. I do not believe my PL is better than any other breed. I hunt with many breeds and appreciate them all for what they have to offer! I could watch a GSP or ES or Brit point all day long and never shoot a bird and be happy!

Off to find a delete button... of course, if I find it, you may never see this!! :lol:

Z


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## Ronnem

Zbirdman said:


> Wasn't trying to start a fight or even a debate gentlemen!!
> 
> Just thought I would provide the info in the Outdoor life article, because, as I said, it seems like the most plausible explanation on why some labs point and to respond to someone's assertion that it must be trained behavior.
> 
> Also, I did not realize the sensitivity of what has already gone on on this site for some time. If I did, I would not have made the post at all.
> 
> As the author of the post, if I can find a delete button, I will delete it... Don't see one so far though...
> 
> By the way, and I have said this on other sites before, and I truly believe it... I see zero value in any "my breed is better than your breed" discussion and was not trying to start one of those strings. I do not believe my PL is better than any other breed. I hunt with many breeds and appreciate them all for what they have to offer! I could watch a GSP or ES or Brit point all day long and never shoot a bird and be happy!
> 
> Off to find a delete button... of course, if I find it, you may never see this!! :lol:
> 
> Z


HEY
You are taking my response the wrong way, I am not trying to start a debate either. They were *questions* not statements. I thought there was going to be more to what was being put out there in regards to genes. Like a study. There are quite a few groups out there studying behavioral morphology and microsatellites and I thought maybe you had access to their data, which I don't(didn't pay to play). At any rate this is not a sore subject but a very very interesting to say the least subject. 

Ron


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## to the point

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zbirdman

... sending from phone... may not look so great...

Sorry... took your response as sarcastic. if it really was not meant that way, that's my error. 

Sending PM because, apparently, my PL brethren are worried about offending others. 

(Which I do not get.... nothing wrong with healthy constructive debate IMO.)

I do not believe a pointing gene has been isolated in any pointing breed. When/if that does happen, I will place a friendly wager with you that we can run the test on a real PL and find the same gene or variant.

When I said generic, I was referrng to the statement in the article that said the gene is recessive.

Perhaps this is not correct, but, to me, if a pup (or successive line of pups) comes out of the womb doing something, then that something is an inherited trait and if that is not driven by genetics, then what is the cause? 

I am no geneticist or repro vet, but, it sounds like you may be (loci, alelle etc), so please enlighten me further if you are so inclined?

What I do know for certain is that some labs point instinctively. What do you think causes that?

I picked my pup (now the 32nd 4 Time Grand Master in history, UKC HRCH, AKC SH) out of his litter because he was tdipod pointing at 7 weeks old and he has pointed ever since.

More than you ever wanted to see, I am sure... but here are some videos of my dog Bear:

Most PLs I have seen, don't point as hard as pointers. (that recessive gene I suppose ; ) Bear"s point depends on the bird and is more intense as you go from planted chukar to hens to roostes, then wild hens to roosters. These videos were planted birds.

Now you did it.... made me ramble on about my dog!!

Really hard on a phone too!!

Take Care,

Bob

ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY8ocsPNKts


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## Ronnem

There are roughly 3 publications on canine behavioral morphology and genes. What is known and can be proven is: it is not one or even two genes but "whole-genomes"(WGAS). So it does not matter if we are talking herding, pointing, guarding or whatever breed trait you want to throw out there, it isn't one or two genes. With that said all labs by genetic make-up *should* have the ability to produce pups that have a strong prey drive and the pups will stalk(therefore can be enhanced to point and stand game). Now with that said, without genetic manipulation no one can control what variation is chosen in breeding, therefore breeding two dogs that stalk, breeding them together doesn't guarantee all or even any of the pups will stalk. Certain traits like pointing or stalking are influenced by the brain not directly from a gene but genes that affect the brain, it is more personality than an inherited trait. Just like Hip Dysplasia, it is not a gene that has anything to do with the hip, but a gene that influences bone developement. Like Narcolepsy, it is not one or genes that cause Narcolepsy but genes that influence sleep or the bodies ability to shut down. In Europe there was a study done on pure bred dogs. One breed was picked and 300 DNA samples were taken. Geneticist and Genealogist looked at the DNA and lineage. After sequencing, only 90% of the dogs matched the breed sequence for that breed. 1 in 10 or 10% of the dogs tested did not match their respective breed sequence. With labs in the U.S. I would say 50% of all labs would test MUTT and not match any lab sequence. Did everyone reading this get that. Most don't know how to breed labs and most are not pure labs anyways. I own labs so I'm not breed bashing a breed that I don't have skin the game. There are 19,000 known variations in dog genomes. 75% of canine genes will be identical, these are the genes that make it a dog. But there are breed whole-genomes that have been tested that can tell you if you have a boxer or a poodle. Now lets get to the point, literally, I will try and find the study but again here some details: A group of GSPs were sequenced and although all mapping matched, one GSP had stronger pointing traits than others and some had no pointing traits what so ever. So we are back to the fact even in pointing breeds, breeding the dogs that point the most intense doesn't mean all the pups or any of the pups will carry that trait. It is like saying two shy people have a baby, that baby isn't necessarily going to be shy, too many variations available and to get an identical variation of two different variations is impossible. And to test a pointing labs whole genomes compared to a non-pointing labs sequence would show nothing. You might find out one isn't even a lab I would say you have a 50/50 shot at evening having a lab. Right now to date to my knowledge, there are 5 known whole-genome sequences. I know herding and guarding are two known and domestic and tame is one more, I don't know the other two off hand. I'll let everyone digest this and then I'll post about behavioral Phenotyping. The Great "FOX FARM EXPERIMENT". 

Ron


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## SalmonBum

"Hey, how exactly is a rainbow made?

How exactly does the sun set?

How exactly does the posi-trac rear end on a Plymouth work?

-It just does.
-It just does'"

Quote-- Joe Dirt's Boilogical Dad.


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## Paco

Ongoing research has been going on for awhile now investigating working behaviors and the basis of instinct in the dog, including pointing and herding patterns.
The goal of this research is to understand the rules by which genes influence the brain and behavior......
Van Andel Research Institute - contact [email protected]

My dogs are taking part, have sent in samples and have to send a second set today.

(The program for canine health and performance )

More Importantly, Ron been runnin' the dogs on grouse? Season is near, get in the woods...


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## Ronnem

More Importantly, Ron been runnin' the dogs on grouse? Season is near, get in the woods...[/QUOTE]

Man those first cool mornings gave me a warm fuzzy feeling all over, even in places it shouldn't. I can't stay out of the woods right now. I am not seeing many resident woodcock though, not that I hunt them just trying to get the beagle on them. 


Paco,

I was thinking the guy that started this thread was taking part in the that study, glad to hear you are or at least some one from this site is. PLEASE let me know when they publish the findings. 


Ron


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## kwas

My first thought on this post was indirectly trying to sell some puppies. Lol..


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## Zbirdman

________________________________________
Well, now that I am using a real computer and not a phone, I see that I had a glitch in my last post to Ron... That was supposed to be a PM just to Ron and not a public reply. 

Also, I did not intend for 11 video images to be present in this public post. Seems very obtrusive to me to see all those images in a post vs just the links. One or two would be fine, but 11 is a bit much. I had pasted those in from another memo, not realizing (or remembering) that it would put in all those big images.

Not intentionally trying to "stir any pots" here... Just had a rather ironic (considering my desire to delete this post) technical problem. On some sites the little envelope icon creates a PM and on the tiny screen of my phone, I thought that was was I had selected.

Z


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## Zbirdman

Thats understandable (the puppy comment), especially considering the annotation the first video, but, that was not my intent. I was really just trying to send a couple videos to Ron only.

Heck, I have been trying to delete this entire string ever since I created it! 

I just read that your "Edit" button can be disabled by the admin, so that must be my problem.

I sent the Admin a message to delete this post.

Ron, in case that happens, if you want to keep what you said above for future use, you may want to copy and paste it somewhere.

Z


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## Ronnem

Zbirdman said:


> Thats understandable (the puppy comment), especially considering the annotation the first video, but, that was not my intent. I was really just trying to send a couple videos to Ron only.
> 
> Heck, I have been trying to delete this entire string ever since I created it!
> 
> I just read that your "Edit" button can be disabled by the admin, so that must be my problem.
> 
> I sent the Admin a message to delete this post.
> 
> Ron, in case that happens, if you want to keep what you said above for future use, you may want to copy and paste it somewhere.
> 
> Z


Z 
no problem with any of the above, do what you gotta do to delete, nobody will miss my dribble. I wish I was smarter with a computer, I would have helped you delete. 
Ron


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## chewy

dallasdog said:


> just ask Len Jenkins


lmao. that's setters


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## chewy

if I train a dog to stand there if it smells a bird is that a point? define pointing. if I train a dog to sit instead of stand there is that a sitpoint? 

if the dog doesnt have intensity and staunchness it's not pointing. it's standing there because that is what he was taught to do. 


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## Lloydboy

chewy said:


> if I train a dog to stand there if it smells a bird is that a point? define pointing. if I train a dog to sit instead of stand there is that a sitpoint?
> 
> if the dog doesnt have intensity and staunchness it's not pointing. it's standing there because that is what he was taught to do.
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._



To bad there wasn't a trial where Pointing Labs ran with or against your traditional pointers... OH WAIT... :evilsmile 
I think I heard about something last weekend... How did that turn out? and Why weren't you there??? :yikes:


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## Firemedic

He was there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lloydboy

Then my apologies... 

To bad I didn't get meet Chewy or if I did didn't know it. I hear he is really good guy... 

I would say around 80% of PL points had the intencity that pointing dog owner would say is a point... I can admit even my dog had a point that wasn't a good point... He came in stopped, and was flagging to beat the band. He was on top of the bird but didn't have good scent.. relocated and flushed the bird... 

I know every dog has it's day, it was Very fun event... again Ryan and Scott did great job! And the next time we do this I'll be there! AND willing to help out any way I can...


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## chewy

lol I was there. just hiding . I saw a chocolate one that pointed. I saw some that to me appeared to just stand there. im not criticizing hell I owned a pointing dog that wagged his whole rear end when he " pointed". his name was chewy haha. 




_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## Lloydboy

chewy said:


> lol I was there. just hiding . I saw a chocolate one that pointed. I saw some that to me appeared to just stand there. im not criticizing hell I owned a pointing dog that wagged his whole rear end when he " pointed". his name was chewy haha.
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


:lol::lol::lol: That's fun... Next time introduces yourself... 

Ryan - I want to see the picture with Dale, Junebug, and yourself... To bad Socks couldn't stay and get in the picture...


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