# Name dropping



## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm curious. How many people that participate on this board have actually spoken with any of these people. If you respond please list to whom you have spoken. I know that they are all dead now. 
George "Andy" Ammann
Either of the Wicksall brothers
George Bird Evans
George Ryman
Ellen Ryman
Carl Calkins
The names seem to get tossed around like we had coffee with them this morning and I interested with actual contact with these people by board members. Thanks, Mike McDonald 
BTW for me 
yes
no
yes
no 
yes 
yes


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I hope everyone stayed at Marriott's Fairfield Inn & Suites last night....:lol:




www.marriott.com/tvcfi


Now to answer Mike's questions:

NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO

I have hunted with GVSUKush though.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Do you have a list for people who don't give a crap about setters?


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

BradU20 said:


> Do you have a list for people who don't give a crap about setters?


 No, Maybe you do? 
I'm just trying to sort out how much contact we as a group have had with these historical figures of setterdom. mac


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

BradU20 said:


> Do you have a list for people who don't give a crap about setters?


 
I know my name is on there somewhere........


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Firemedic said:


> I know my name is on there somewhere........


Ryan you're on the lab owners **** list also:help::lol:


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> Ryan you're on the lab owners **** list also:help::lol:


I still hunt him more than the pointers.

BTW, do you wash your sheets and comforters after every stay? I saw some very disturbing news on 60 Minutes......:lol:


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Firemedic said:


> I still hunt him more than the pointers.
> 
> BTW, do you wash your sheets and comforters after every stay? I saw some very disturbing news on 60 Minutes......:lol:


Tripple Sheeting, everything on the bed gets washed.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

I corresponded quite a bit with George Evans thorugh his wife Kay. He was always interested and I think bewildered by the number of grouse I had in the country I hunt. 

I had breakfast twice with Andy Ammann and corresponded with him quite a bit via letters and note cards. I also owned and hunted with his Model 21 20 gauge until I lost it in the grouse woods. 

I have met and corresponed with the daughter of one of the Wicksall brothers named Sally Downer. One of the really fine grouse dogs I've owned came from Sally's Wicksall's Belle x Tom Prawdziks Boyne River Bud.

How's that for some name dropping Mac!


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay, Here is a GBE story for you. At one point he drove up to hunt with Tom P. Hunted a day and left because he didn't like Tom's hunting style and told him so. Tom told me the story. mac

My point isn't really to name drop. It is to point out that many of the people that we refer to as though they are old friends and still have a great deal to do with the dogs that some of us hunt with are long since dead. We haven't discussed breeding characteristics with them. Most of us have never spoken to most if any of them so we really have no idea what they were looking for. Rather than referencing what we imagine they were trying to produce I think the conversation would be moved forward by at least moving in to the 21st century. There are plenty of people that are producing great dogs today. Yourself included maybe the references should be to the dogs that are being produced by, you, the Bergs, the Weisses, Northwood, Jason Gooding, Rich Hollister, Long Gone and others that are actually available for discussion. 
Mac 
BTW I did speak on several occasions with GBE. I bought a pup from him that was dysplastic and his response to the problem was childlike. It is well known that George ingored dysplasia and produced many dogs with hip problems. But he had good bull **** and people revere bull ****.


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## Grayphase (May 11, 2010)

Knew Andy actually. Sally as well. Met Evans and Wicksall many years ago. Here is a few more names for your list. Harry Peterson Al Stewart Jim Foote Gordon Guyer Bob Huff Bud Jarvis Tom Prawdzik. These guys have all had some pretty good grouse dogs over the years.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Harry got our RGS sportman of the year award this year. He gave a wonderful acceptance speech. Great guy, got to hunt with him and his dog Ally in later season on Lee Grande. He still moves through the woods remarkably well all things considered. Hunt with Al and Tom most years. Gordon Guyer's property is next to my friend John Frey's property in the UP but I've never met him.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

I don't find it necessary to have to have talked to any of these people to get a take on what they were doing in the dog world. There is pleny of history to examine to get those answers.
All of those mentioned in the second list with the exception of Gooding do not produce the same type of dog as the folks in the first list therefore if I were looking for a classic bred dog I would not bother. If you want a F-150 talk to a truck salesman not the guy pushing mustangs.
George Evans yes and no on the rest.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

slammer said:


> I don't find it necessary to have to have talked to any of these people to get a take on what they were doing in the dog world. There is pleny of history to examine to get those answers.
> 
> 
> All of those mentioned in the second list with the exception of Gooding do not produce the same type of dog as the folks in the first list therefore if I were looking for a classic bred dog I would not bother. If you want a F-150 talk to a truck salesman not the guy pushing mustangs.
> George Evans yes and no on the rest.


So Slammer what's your take on what they were doing and what is your source of information? 
Thanks in advance, macvet51


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

They were all dead before I was born.

So my answer is no.


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## Grayphase (May 11, 2010)

Mike McDonald said:


> Harry got our RGS sportman of the year award this year. He gave a wonderful acceptance speech. Great guy, got to hunt with him and his dog Ally in later season on Lee Grande. He still moves through the woods remarkably well all things considered. Hunt with Al and Tom most years. Gordon Guyer's property is next to my friend John Frey's property in the UP but I've never met him.


 Ahh the AO plantation. Didnt get over there this year. Great to hear about the award. Couldnt have gone to a better fellow IMO. Gordons another great guy. Just sit back and think about the characters that have roamed the Mi woods. And the fine dogs that they shot over. Sipped alot of fine whiskey with some of them. Some not so good whiskey also. This brings back many fond memories from over 40 years in the grouse woods. Hoping for at least 25 more god willing. Good thread Mike.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

2ESRGR8 said:


> They were all dead before I was born.
> 
> So my answer is no.


 Scott, Both Evans and Ammann died in 1998. If you're under 13 maybe it's time to sell that big white truck and get a rig like Harrison Hellers. mac


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

I have personally met Steelhead & 2ESRGR8. I am going to get autographs as soon as I can work up the courage.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> Scott, Both Evans and Ammann died in 1998. If you're under 13 maybe it's time to sell that big white truck and get a rig like Harrison Hellers. mac


Good idea it prolly gets better mileage.

Tim you got any trianing birds on hand? I'll deliver my autograph in person.


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

slammer said:


> I don't find it necessary to have to have talked to any of these people to get a take on what they were doing in the dog world. There is pleny of history to examine to get those answers.
> All of those mentioned in the second list with the exception of Gooding do not produce the same type of dog as the folks in the first list therefore if I were looking for a classic bred dog I would not bother. If you want a F-150 talk to a truck salesman not the guy pushing mustangs.
> George Evans yes and no on the rest.


Have you checked out the motors in the F-150's of late. They'll run with the old 'stangs. If you're not moving forward you might as well be going backwards.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Mac,

I have to give you credit. You are trying to give some very good advice for someone who really wants to learn about bird dogs and thats get in your vehicle and go train and hunt with the guys that have owned and/or trained hundreds of dogs. In some cases even thousands of dogs. While you might only get to a work with a handful of such guys. Any of those guys can pass along knowledge they gained from the literally hundreds of guys they have hunted with, trained, trialed, and discussed bird dogs with over the years. 

I did a seminar at Game Fair which is a huge outdoor show here in Minnesota that draws around 50,000 attendees for two weekends. There were several exhibitors and trainers in the audience and after the session a half dozen really experienced guys and two relatively new guys stayed to talk. One of the young guys asked what all of us did to learn outside the obvious training and/or breeding a lot of dogs. All of the really experienced guys told stories of the many people they had associated with over the years and how that helped them. I certainly am a long way from knowing it all but whatever I do know was helped along by a very long list of good dog men and women to whom I am grateful. 

SRB


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Mike McDonald said:


> So Slammer what's your take on what they were doing and what is your source of information?
> Thanks in advance, macvet51


that's a wise guy response that doesn't warrant much time. I got my first setter a little over 20 years ago. Since then I have had discussions related to setter blood for purchasing pups, dogs or breeding arrangements with most every reputable setter breeder in north America.


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## Whispering Woods (Jan 7, 2011)

I spoke to and with Andy Amman, bred to his dogs, talked to George Evans wife Kaye, and to some of the guys he hunted with. Thay said he was an ordinary hacker in the woods . blew the whistle to much. just told a good story, writers licence I guess. There is still one who lives on t the west side of Michigan that knows and has hunted with all of them. Joan Miser. She has a mind about who was bred to who in the past like a stele trap!!! The foundation bitch for our kennel was out of Harry Petersons Gert. Many years ago. She was our origional Wicksall Dog. She knew more about grouse hunting natrually and taught me so much as I was a new hunter then. Met Sally Downer and talked with her about her dad and uncle and all our dogs at a bird banding weekend. Nice lady. Love to live in the past . I was born 50 years to late.
nt


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

I didn't see Gordon Guyer on your original list but I too am acquainted with Gordon. I even stayed at his lake place near Harbor Springs once when I drove overt to pick up a puppy from Sally Downer. Gordon was a very interesting man and I miss seeing him.


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## Whispering Woods (Jan 7, 2011)

What chapter of RGS do you belong to-- looking for a home.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Induna said:


> Have you checked out the motors in the F-150's of late. They'll run with the old 'stangs. If you're not moving forward you might as well be going backwards.


I agree CCZ. However, when talking about those type of dogs moving fwd is subjective to a degree and I think there is plenty of use for old blood. One of my best dogs came from stillmeadow farms. I picked her up and had a chance to work Jim a little and we talked of breeding to him a little. Shortly after that he died washing out my plans to have a pup from him out of my bitch. Not to long ago there were some frozen breeding through him and I see a use for it and would have taken one had I had the opportunity.


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

Slammer if you get the chance again to get an up close Jim dog grab it. I had 2 sons of Jim and they were honest bird dogs. We used both of them to check new coverts, if they didn't find birds we crossed them off our list. I've also hunted behind and judged alot of Jim's offspring, even judged Jim and ran against him, never saw a bad one. Did see a couple of ornery ones but that could have come from the dam's aswell.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

My bitch was out of Ben and Liz and was mean as hell to other dogs.
At the time I had 3 females and she would bite them in the face. It happened to the wifes golden and it was right to doggie heaven for Joy.


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## fullers esb (Mar 11, 2010)

crazy you are correct that jim males were solid if not outstanding grouse dogs one of the ones you owened was I belive derby dog of the year. However few save for Springsields judge and chips rusty ever went to the upper echolon of cover dog trials in part due to there size at the time when toy setters were in vouge and the real and percieved notion that they were heat intolerent although a pelethora of jim females were inordinately successful on the trial circuit. keep on educating these young boys chas you are a knowledgeable sage of the sport


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Still Meadows Jim frozen stuff is still around I am pretty sure. I would guess that Upland Gunner may know if I am correct.

Ben


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I knew Andy Ammonn. I belonged to the chapter named after him. I was asked by him to go banding but at the time I had no idea what a honor that would have been. I got to see him run (twice) patches in our chapter RGS dog of the year. He did place third the one year and I believe it was the last year he and patches competed. I had three hand carved walking sticks made and gave Andy one woodcock. The other woodcock and grouse (autographed by him)I gave to RGS for their action. I don't know any other people on that list except Al Stewart. There is another outstanding person.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

slammer said:


> that's a wise guy response that doesn't warrant much time. I got my first setter a little over 20 years ago. Since then I have had discussions related to setter blood for purchasing pups, dogs or breeding arrangements with most every reputable setter breeder in north America.


Slammer, I really wasn't trying to be a wise guy. As others have pointed out all of the people on my original list are dead and I personally have no idea what they were trying to achieve? Do you and if so what is your source? What history are you referring to. thanks macvet


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Worm Dunker, I bet those are some great memories. I got to spend some time with Andy at his home in 74 and 75 but never got to see his dogs in the woods. macvet51


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Well after your last post Mac I now know why I can't say yes to meeting them. It was back before dirt. LOL I was 12 in 74.:lol:


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Whispering Woods said:


> What chapter of RGS do you belong to-- looking for a home.


Litzenberger in petoskey/charlevoix. Not as big as TC but we work hard and always welcome others. 

As I grow older, I treasure more and more the time that I spent with some of the dog people that are here no longer. As I think I said earlier I hunted with Harry Peterson and his dog Ally this fall. In spite of some health issues Harry still cruises through the woods. His dog Ally is out of Al Stewart's now gone female. Ally is a wonderful dog and I think could throw some dandy pups. 
With her background I bet people would line up. macvet51


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Well after your last post Mac I now know why I can't say yes to meeting them. It was back before dirt. LOL I was 12 in 74.:lol:


Too bad, you missed most of the good stuff. Unfortunately if you were around for the "good stuff" like me you are older than dirt. m


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Well after your last post Mac I now know why I can't say yes to meeting them. It was back before dirt. LOL I was 12 in 74.:lol:


I was just a seed in Big R's berries.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> Litzenberger in petoskey/charlevoix. Not as big as TC but we work hard and always welcome others.
> 
> As I grow older, I treasure more and more the time that I spent with some of the dog people that are here no longer. As I think I said earlier I hunted with Harry Peterson and his dog Ally this fall. In spite of some health issues Harry still cruises through the woods. His dog Ally is out of Al Stewart's now gone female. Ally is a wonderful dog and I think could throw some dandy pups.
> With her background I bet people would line up. macvet51


You gonna breed her to Reed?


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

fullers esb said:


> crazy you are correct that jim males were solid if not outstanding grouse dogs one of the ones you owened was I belive derby dog of the year. However few save for Springsields judge and chips rusty ever went to the upper echolon of cover dog trials in part due to there size at the time when toy setters were in vouge and the real and percieved notion that they were heat intolerent although a pelethora of jim females were inordinately successful on the trial circuit. keep on educating these young boys chas you are a knowledgeable sage of the sport


That would have been Petee. He sure made hunting grouse easy.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike McDonald said:


> I'm curious. How many people that participate on this board have actually spoken with any of these people. If you respond please list to whom you have spoken. I know that they are all dead now.
> George "Andy" Ammann
> Either of the Wicksall brothers
> George Bird Evans
> ...


no to all those setter people but I did stay in a holiday inn express last night. and I don't drink beer much but when I do it's a dos equis


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