# Michigan Grouse & Woodcock Hunting Dog Classic



## Bobby

It's nearly August and time for the annual Michigan Grouse & Woodcock Hunting Dog Classic hosted by the Michigan Amateur Field Trial Club.

This stake is intended for hunting dogs, not seasoned field trial dogs, dogs with no prior Shooting Dog or All Age placements. We run on the continuous courses at the Gladwin Field Trial Area on wild birds and run this event in the same manner as our sanctioned events. The major difference is judging, judgement ceases at the flush of the bird. Steady to wing and shot is not required. The stake is intended to introduce folks to the game we play and the grounds we play on. We have Shooting Dog and Derby on Saturday Aug. 21 and the Hunting Dog on Sunday morning, Aug 22. Judges for this event are Rich Hollister & Fritz Heller. 

We always provide nice prizes for the winners and Purina donates product that is distributed to all participants. 

Saturday evening at the Alibi Hall (on the grounds) the club will have the grilles going and will provide hamburgs, hot dogs and such. Please bring something to pass, if you can, we won't be checked' at the door (single barrel bourbon is always a nice thing to share) 

More info, entry contacts, etc posted at http://coverdog.blogspot.com/

Below is a photo of the winners and a number of participants from this past spring trial (it's posted at the blog and if you click on the photo it will increase in size)










Bob


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## Firemedic

Sounds like a great way for new recruits. Good luck with your trial.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fishinlk

How long is the derby stake? Can I run a puppy in it?

Thanks!


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## midwestfisherman

Firemedic said:


> Sounds like a great way for new recruits. Good luck with your trial.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should come on up for this. Your dogs would do well in this.


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## FindTheBird

midwestfisherman said:


> You should come on up for this. Your dogs would do well in this.


Agreed!

This is literally the only fun trial in the state (or maybe even anywhere East of the Mississippi?) that is run totally on wild birds. As a hunter of wild birds, to me, this makes it the gold standard of all the fun trials.

If your your dog can hunt, find and point wild birds, it can win. Also, don't get the impression that this is just a pointer/setter trial, in the last 5-6 years a couple of GSP's have also won (and I'm not counting my little bob-tailed GSP impersonator :lol.


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## k9wernet

in that photo above of the spring trial, the blue ribbon is on a GSP disguised as a Chocolate Lab


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## GSP Gal

Firemedic and I have been running our GSP's in NSTRA- Albeit, the *amature* division, would we still be eligible? Hawkeye has some placements, and so does Schatzie.  (one little ol' 4th place for Schatzie) Hawkeye on the other hand.....knocking them over.


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## dash102576

just wanted to say this is always a fun event. i ran my dog buddy in the spring hunting dog stake it was a great time met a lot of new people. Dale


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## Bobby

fishinlk said:


> How long is the derby stake? Can I run a puppy in it?
> 
> Thanks!


30 minutes with a bird field at the end. You can run a puppy aged dog in derby. You can always move up in age class, never down.

We have no puppy stake in our Summer trial. We will have a puppy stake in the Fall, Oct 1, 2, 3.


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## FindTheBird

GSP Gal said:


> Firemedic and I have been running our GSP's in NSTRA- Albeit, the *amature* division, would we still be eligible? Hawkeye has some placements, and so does Schatzie.  (one little ol' 4th place for Schatzie) Hawkeye on the other hand.....knocking them over.


Sandy, I'm pretty sure that you would still be eligible, the only exclusion that I'm aware of is an American Field shooting dog placement. The honorable Mr. Wheelock will have to confirm that though...


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## 2ESRGR8

Bobby said:


> . Judges for this event are Rich Hollister & *Fritz Heller. *
> 
> Bob


 I guess we know one non-participant. :lol:


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## Bobby

2ESRGR8 said:


> I guess we know one non-participant. :lol:


I don't believe Mr. Heller owns pointy dogs. The Field doesn't recognize silver pointing labs as 'real' pointing dogs. :evil: 

And we are glad to have Mr. Handle Bar in the saddle again this year.

By the way, shorthairs have placed regularly in this stake. Last spring the winner was a nice little Shorthair. Maybe 4 years back a fella from Marquette brought his german dog down and took back a truck load of prises. Even had a nice article written in the Marquette Mining Journal about his Hunting Dog Championship.

Grouseman 2 placed his stub tail one year and now Dan Ross owns the dog (owner of the famous High Fives Wrangler) A gordon has placed about 4 times. Two brits placed in 2007.

Mr. Jurek brought his spinone (spell?) up to Gladwin and placed last summer, Guinness, a very nice dog and a much prouder owner. He was taking his ribbon to bird camp that fall.








[/IMG]

And all these non setter and non pointer breeds come in low numbers and place disproportionate to their entry numbers. A good dog is a good dog.


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## Tightlines

I have a 5 yr old Choc. Lab (HR Millers Drake Hunter) He has had some upland practice at pheasant farms in the area. He doesn't point but is a fair flusher,,, would this be something I could bring him to and run him?? I think it would be great practice, but if it doesn't fall within the rules of pointing, would I still be able to participate?

Chris


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## Firemedic

Tightlines said:


> I have a 5 yr old Choc. Lab (HR Millers Drake Hunter) He has had some upland practice at pheasant farms in the area. He doesn't point but is a fair flusher,,, would this be something I could bring him to and run him?? I think it would be great practice, but if it doesn't fall within the rules of pointing, would I still be able to participate?
> 
> Chris


Nope.


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## Bobby

Bobby said:


> ..............
> And all these non setter and *non pointer breeds *come in low numbers and place disproportionate to their entry numbers. A good dog is a good dog.



I wrote the above sentence in my last post. This may have suggested that flushing breeds have been entered in the past. It was poor wording. When I wrote "non pointer" breeds I mean not an English Pointer; i.e. Brit or a wirehair, etc. A pointing breed other than an English Pointer.
We have discussed within our club and with some experienced folks from the flushing dog world a process to bring flushing dogs into this Hunting Dog stake we run 2 times per year. As we dug into the details it appeared to offer too many compromises for both sides. In the end we decided to stay with pointing breeds only and continue to run this stake as a pointing dog stake. RGS Fun trials have done a similar thing recently, splitting out the pointing and flushing breeds to separate stakes. A deep RGS officer was involved in our discussion of expanding our stake. The input of this person was valuable in our final decision.

My apologies for the confusion.


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## BIGSP

Bobby,

Where do we send our checks?

For those of you on the fence. It really is a great time with great people. Bobby and his wife are great hosts and really made this event enjoyable for myself last year. It is competitive but, it's good nature competition. The only downside is it's hot. I plan on going but, may have to be out of town that Sunday for meetings on Monday. I should know that long before the draw though.


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## GSP Gal

We ran it last year. Great time, beautiful grounds, and it was a warm one.


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## Bobby

BIGSP said:


> Bobby, where do we send our checks?


This is how it works.
Call or email Rich Hollister (all info is at the link below) and enter your dog(s.)
Provide the dogs name, breed and sex, your name (or the handler if it's not you) The drawing will be the Wednesday prior and will be posted at the Blog, this site and the Coverdog site.

When you get to the grounds find Chris Demattio and pay him. 
He is the guy in the yellow sweatshirt










Checks are easiest for us, but cash is King. No credit or debit cards. Lunch is catered and we ask for a $5 donation if you participate. There is a coffee can in the lunch room, clearly marked. You can't find a better deal for 5 bucks.........anywhere.

If there are any questions on how to handle or run your dog and where to be or what to do, look around and ask some one. If they don't know they will point you to the right person.

There is plenty of camping, State Forest type, $15/night, on the grounds. 3P's for service, pump, picnic table and pit toilet.

The stake will start at 8 AM sharp, probably on course 8 (there is a link at the blog site for a map) We will run continuously thru the courses, break for lunch, then finish (all these details will be listed when we post the running order)
Walk all the braces you want, it's not hilly or difficult. Leave your truck with the keys in it and it will be moved. If you can pair up with others to drive out to the course that would help. It will cut down the number of trucks we have to move each brace. We will always move the handlers trucks first. When your brace is schedule it will help immensely if you do not walk the brace prior to yours. That you move with the crew on the road and get your charge ready for your turn. All kinds of things can happen during a brace, including getting lost, left in the woods, who knows what else. And if you are that person you might miss your turn. I've been left in the woods 2 times and lost (temporarily turned around for an hour) one other time.

At the end of the stake we will gather back at the Alibi and announce winners and take pictures.

That covers things for now.

Bob


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## Flash01

1. Mrs. Miller at Mil-Run cooks a mean lunch for $5 too!

I am interested in doing this, but...

2. My dog usually hunts dizzied quail. Will any of the wild birds be captured and dizzied? (sorry could not help myself)

c. Seriously, though, I am a little confused by the gun requirements. Would I buy blanks for my shotgun or carry a pistol or can i rent/borrow a gun for the run? My dog is not steady to wing and/or shot so I would just run on Sunday, right?

I am planning on coming up to check it out at the very least.


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## kdogger

Can you explain the judging criteria for Derby? What do the judges want to see and what exactly does the winning dog do better than the other dogs?


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## 2ESRGR8

Flash01 said:


> c. Seriously, though, I am a little confused by the gun requirements. Would I buy blanks for my shotgun or carry a pistol or can i rent/borrow a gun for the run? My dog is not steady to wing and/or shot so I would just run on Sunday, right?
> 
> I am planning on coming up to check it out at the very least.


- Yes you will be able to borrow a blank gun.

-Steadiness is not required for the hunting dog stake(Sunday), judgement ceases at the flush of the bird.


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## N M Mechanical

If the bearded one has her cast off I will run at least be there too watch


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## FindTheBird

Flash01 said:


> 1. Mrs. Miller at Mil-Run cooks a mean lunch for $5 too!


I had a couple of her mean chocolate chips yesterday, and if that's any indication, you're totally correct!


Flash01 said:


> 2. My dog usually hunts dizzied quail. Will any of the wild birds be captured and dizzied? (sorry could not help myself)


:lol:


Flash01 said:


> c. Seriously, though, I am a little confused by the gun requirements. Would I buy blanks for my shotgun or carry a pistol or can i rent/borrow a gun for the run? My dog is not steady to wing and/or shot so I would just run on Sunday, right?


If we're not running in the same brace you are certainly welcome to mine. There will be a ton of them floating around, and it's common for the judges to carry them too.



kdogger said:


> Can you explain the judging criteria for Derby? What do the judges want to see and what exactly does the winning dog do better than the other dogs?


Don't confuse a derby with the hunting dog classic! See the derby basics below. In addition, the dog should hunt primarily to the front, show some athleticism and independence (but not too much!) focus on likely objectives and finding a bird or two doesn't hurt! The derby is age restricted, so your dog would also have to be relatively young
*14. -- Derby Stakes*
A.: Derbies must point and hold until handler arrives, but no additional credit shall be given for steadiness to wing and shot. 
B.: Stop to Flush -- If flush is inadvertent or caused by bracemate, there should be no penalty. A proper stop to flight is commendable and should be credited. Any deliberate flush should be penalized.
C.: Blinking or Circling Birds -- Blinking birds should be penalized.
D.: Derbies must show reasonable obedience for their handlers command.
E.: The judges should elect the derby dog that they consider most likely to succeed as a finished dog.
F.: Blank ammunition should be shot over Derbies to prove their acceptance of the gun.
G.: Derbies should handle and respond to the handlers commands relative to the ground pattern.
H.: Derbies are not required to back, but they may not interfere with bracemate in any way.
I.: Nonproductive -- Dogs should be given the benefit of the doubt. It is possible for birds to have moved without judicial observation.
J.: Derbies should show more endurance and speed than a puppy.
K.: Each dog is to be judged on its actual performance as an indicator of its future promise.


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## kdogger

Great, thanks for the info about derby...now what about beepers and e-collars, are they allowed or are the dogs "naked"?


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## FindTheBird

kdogger said:


> Great, thanks for the info about derby...now what about beepers and e-collars, are they allowed or are the dogs "naked"?


In the derby (and all sanctioned AF stakes in Michigan for that matter) you cannot use beepers or e-collars. That leaves a bell for location. In some trials (actually most including this one) you are allowed to use a tracker like a Garmin Astro, but the judge is required to hold the reciever and the receiver must be powered-off. If you lose your dog, you can ask for the receiver, but your dog is eliminated from the trial at that point.

On the other hand, the hunting dog classic allows beepers, and the tracker rule is the same as described above. E-collars are not allowed in the hunting dog either.


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## 2ESRGR8

Why would the Astro be viewed any different than a beeper in the hunting dog stake? 
It is used as a locator to find a dog on point by many hunters I would think it could be used just as it would on any given day in the grouse woods.
Bobby?


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## Bobby

2ESRGR8 said:


> Why would the Astro be viewed any different than a beeper in the hunting dog stake?
> It is used as a locator to find a dog on point by many hunters I would think it could be used just as it would on any given day in the grouse woods.
> Bobby?


Interesting point and I think quite sensible.
Join up, get involved and bring this issue to the next general membership meeting.
This summer no active use allowed for a Garmin in the Hunt Dog stake. As a recovery tool only.


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## Tightlines

All I was trying to do was get my lad some more upland experience, I guess it doesn't matter that I AM a member of RGS and HRC. I am planning a few upland hunts this fall for grouse and woodcock and wanted Drake to get the "feel" of it prior to hunting. I really didn't appreciate firemedic response of NOPE, alittle stuck up answer, in my opinion. During many HRC trials all breeds are represented, mainly because owners want their breeds to get experience for retiveing and handling.

Guess I'll have to look elsewhere to work with my lab for upland hunting.

Just a suggestion, but I would like my Hunt Retriever Titled lab to be a well rounded working dog.

Not trying to start any [email protected]*%, just voicing my opinion.

Will welcome any comments.

Chris


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## 2ESRGR8

Tightlines said:


> All I was trying to do was get my lad some more upland experience, I guess it doesn't matter that I AM a member of RSG and HRC. I am planning a few upland hunts this fall for grouse and woodcock and wanted Drake to get the "feel" of it prior to hunting. I really didn't appreciate firemedic response of NOPE, alittle stuck up answer, in my opinion. During many HRC trials all breeds are represented, mainly because owners want their breeds to get experience for retiveing and handling.
> 
> Guess I'll have to look elsewhere to work with my lab for upland hunting.
> 
> Just a suggestion, but I would like my Hunt Retriever Titled lab to be a well rounded working dog.
> 
> Not trying to start any [email protected]*%, just voicing my opinion.
> 
> Will welcome any comments.
> 
> Chris


Not to speak for him but I doubt Ryan meant any ill will with his abrupt answer, he is correct however.
The Spring schedule of RGS fun trials is right up your alley as most events now have a flushing dog division.


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## Firemedic

Tightlines said:


> I really didn't appreciate firemedic response of NOPE, alittle stuck up answer


:lol: Maybe I should have answered you like this instead?

Dear Sir, 
I regret to inform you, you will not be able to enter your labrador retriever in this fun trial. Due to the rules of the game, only canines of pointing decent may be entered. I appreciate your interest in this trial, and you would be more than welcome to attend and watch. 

Anywho, I am not even involved with this venue, and I am far from being stuck up, although, I have been called other things.:lol:

I do believe I sent that message from my Blackberry and I hate typing on that, I just wanted to give you a proper answer. I am sorry if I came across any other way than informative. 

Besides, the real reason they don't want labs in the game is they will find all the birds first and show who the real king of upland dogs are.


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## Tightlines

Thanks for the posts. Firemedic, I've been called worse too.:yikes: No harm no foul or should I say fowl...:lol::lol:

It was hard for me to get into the HRC trials as well, till I made a few friends that showed me the ropes. 

Always looking to go hunting somewhere, especially when Drake is involved.

Hunting Freak, would be a good description, look at my pics and you'll understand.

Chris


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## GSP Gal

Tightlines said:


> All I was trying to do was get my lad some more upland experience, I guess it doesn't matter that I AM a member of RGS and HRC. I am planning a few upland hunts this fall for grouse and woodcock and wanted Drake to get the "feel" of it prior to hunting. I really didn't appreciate firemedic response of NOPE, alittle stuck up answer, in my opinion. During many HRC trials all breeds are represented, mainly because owners want their breeds to get experience for retiveing and handling.
> 
> Guess I'll have to look elsewhere to work with my lab for upland hunting.
> 
> Just a suggestion, but I would like my Hunt Retriever Titled lab to be a well rounded working dog.
> 
> Not trying to start any [email protected]*%, just voicing my opinion.
> 
> Will welcome any comments.
> 
> Chris


Chris, 

I have gotton to know Ryan real well over the last few months. This is about the last guy you could call stuck up. He is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet, likes to laugh alot, and can be a barrel of laughs.

This is the problem with text, blogs, e-mails, sometimes things just don't come across real well, so that writing class we took in high school and college is really a necessity these days. I, regret, I slept through mine, but witnessed many a career downfall with the use of e-mail. :lol:

And, like he mentioned he is a dork with a Blackberry......Love ya Ryan.


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## BradU20

There will be two RGS Fun Trials near you next spring....
Chelsea in March 
Imlay City in April

There is a separate division for flushing dogs. Let me know if you want more info.


Tightlines said:


> Thanks for the posts. Firemedic, I've been called worse too.:yikes: No harm no foul or should I say fowl...:lol::lol:
> 
> It was hard for me to get into the HRC trials as well, till I made a few friends that showed me the ropes.
> 
> Always looking to go hunting somewhere, especially when Drake is involved.
> 
> Hunting Freak, would be a good description, look at my pics and you'll understand.
> 
> Chris


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## Buddwiser

GSP Gal said:


> Chris,
> 
> I have gotton to know Ryan real well over the last few months. This is about the last guy you could call stuck up. He is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet, likes to laugh alot, and can be a barrel of laughs.
> 
> This is the problem with text, blogs, e-mails, sometimes things just don't come across real well, so that writing class we took in high school and college is really a necessity these days. I, regret, I slept through mine, but witnessed many a career downfall with the use of e-mail. :lol:
> 
> And, like he mentioned he is a dork with a Blackberry......Love ya Ryan.


Don't let that warm, fuzzy exterior fool you. He's a dork with or without a blackberry. What ever you do, don't let him have access to your gps.
He has a habit of "accidentally" erasing all your covert gps points.
Besides, he never answered my last pm to him.


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## wirehair

Bobby said:


> Mr. Jurek brought his spinone (spell?) up to Gladwin and placed last summer, Guinness, a very nice dog and a much prouder owner. He was taking his ribbon to bird camp that fall.


Wow! Look at that thick coat of hair. The Spinone has a good coat as well. 









Guinness is retired :lol: I am going to run the White dog this time. It may get UGLY. 
It is a great event lot's of nice people. If you are even thinking of going you should go. Don't worry about knowing what to do. Everyone will be more than happy to help. Let's get a big turn out this year!!!!!!


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## M1Tanker

Bobby said:


> Maybe 4 years back a fella from Marquette brought his german dog down and took back a truck load of prises. Even had a nice article written in the Marquette Mining Journal about his Hunting Dog Championship.


That was my middle dog "Gunner" and we had a great time. I wish I could find the time to make it down there more often but I can't. I cannot spare the trip with a baby on the way.

All I can say to folks is to go and let your dog hunt, meet some people, and watch some other dogs run.

If you get chance, go a day early and watch the stakes.

Don't be intimidated because a majority of the weekend is cover dog...go have some fun!


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## Bobby

M1Tanker said:


> That was my middle dog "Gunner" and we had a great time. I wish I could find the time to make it down there more often but I can't. I cannot spare the trip with a baby on the way.
> 
> All I can say to folks is to go and let your dog hunt, meet some people, and watch some other dogs run.
> 
> If you get chance, go a day early and watch the stakes.
> 
> Don't be intimidated because a majority of the weekend is cover dog...go have some fun!


Dennis Stackowicz & Gunner are pictured as the winner. Look at the trunout for this event (2006) Gunner pointed 3 birds, my memory has 2 woodcock and a grouse. I was braced with him and got way ahead because they kept finding birds.


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## midwestfisherman

GSP Gal said:


> Chris,
> 
> I have gotton to know Ryan real well over the last few months. This is about the last guy you could call stuck up. He is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet, likes to laugh alot, and can be a barrel of laughs.
> 
> This is the problem with text, blogs, e-mails, sometimes things just don't come across real well, so that writing class we took in high school and college is really a necessity these days. I, regret, I slept through mine, but witnessed many a career downfall with the use of e-mail. :lol:
> 
> And, like he mentioned he is a dork with a Blackberry......Love ya Ryan.


+1 on the dork thing!


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## Steelheadfred

Bob,

Just for the record, this is a pointing dog event, and if you owned a pointing lab or a pointing grey hound they can enter. Correct?


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## Paco

Steelheadfred said:


> Bob,
> 
> Just for the record, this is a pointing dog event, and if you owned a pointing lab or a pointing grey hound they can enter. Correct?


Same question I have. My hunters are labs, and they do point (well most the time:lol, and occassionally bust a bird too. But Grouses are what we are after, so if it fits the schedule would like to try it.

No Matter it sounds like a great event, even if we can't run, may come watch.


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## Flash01

Translation = NSTRA Amateur dogs are feared the world around.


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## Bobby

crosswind said:


> .......


Scott
Any Shooting Dog placement, amateur or Open is viewed the same. Both are very competitive. We have officers on our board that have and do compete in NSTRA and they will say the same, they are both very competitive trial formats. I have not participated in NSTRA events, but you are stating that an Amateur NSTRA event is not a competitive or a quality event? That's how I read your post. Can a person only compete in the Amateur division in NSTRA. Is it required to move into open division after placing a certain number of times in an Amateur division?

We are not trying to restrict entries to our FUN stake. We are trying to bring new people to the event, to the area we play and the game we love. What we don't want is a trialer from another format coming and and sweeping the event becuase they "qualify" I don't care what the format is, if it's a sanctioned format, run by an organization like NSTRA, AKC, NBHA etc and you are winning, Amateur or Open you are a competitor, you have quality TRIAL dogs, you are winning. And we don't see a difference between Amateur & Open.


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## Flash01

Most Amateur NSTRA trials (not all, but all of them in Michigan) have only 6-8 participants. Four placements are given. It seems that you are making a lot of assumptions about a format you admittedly know little about. It is my understanding that the Amateur Division of NSTRA was established for EXACTLY the same reasons you are running this "fun" event... to attract new folks who might otherwise not try due to "fears" about the high level of competition (your concerns as well).

To answer your questions: a dog must move up from Amateur to Open after a certain amount of Amateur points and is ineligible after just a small amount of open points (not placements, but points) to run Amateur. 

There are indeed some great dogs in the amatuer events, but most dogs (and handlers for that matter) do not go from being successful in Amateur to being _immediately_ successful in the Open Division. 

You guys can run your deal however you like and I even understand your reasoning to a large extent, but you ARE excluding some folks that might otherwise come and have fun... folks that could easily get a dog steady to wing and shot by next year but do not currently have one ready to go.

Anyway... thats my two cents.


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## FindTheBird

Just curious, does anyone know what the RGS fun trial policy is regarding NSTRA amateur dogs?


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## crosswind

Bobby said:


> Scott
> Any Shooting Dog placement, amateur or Open is viewed the same. Both are very competitive. We have officers on our board that have and do compete in NSTRA and they will say the same, they are both very competitive trial formats. I have not participated in NSTRA events, but you are stating that an Amateur NSTRA event is not a competitive or a quality event? That's how I read your post. Can a person only compete in the Amateur division in NSTRA. Is it required to move into open division after placing a certain number of times in an Amateur division?
> 
> We are not trying to restrict entries to our FUN stake. We are trying to bring new people to the event, to the area we play and the game we love. What we don't want is a trialer from another format coming and and sweeping the event becuase they "qualify" I don't care what the format is, if it's a sanctioned format, run by an organization like NSTRA, AKC, NBHA etc and you are winning, Amateur or Open you are a competitor, you have quality TRIAL dogs, you are winning. And we don't see a difference between Amateur & Open.


 Bobby, I am not trying to change your rules. I don't have a dog in this fight. Those rules are your clubs choice. I question the thiniking behind the qualifications , but again, thats your clubs business. What I am suggesting is that you make the written rule more defining. It is open to allot of different interpetations.
Answer this what about your hunt test and Navda dogs/folks are they qualified or not? It is a sactioned event but since it is run against a standard not against each other, placements are not given, is that considered a competetive event.
Do you see my point?The rule needs to be more defining.


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## 2ESRGR8

Flash01 said:


> It seems that you are making a lot of assumptions about a format you admittedly know little about. .


Maybe you missed this in Bob's post above.

_"We have officers on our board that have and do compete in NSTRA and they will say the same, they are both very competitive trial formats"_


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## Flash01

I didnt miss it. 

Please name names. 

The reason I say that is that Amateur trials are a relatively new thing (like two years or so if I am not mistaken) to NSTRA and I do not recognize any names from the Board named on the coverdog website listed on page one of this thread from any NSTRA event I have been to. That certainly does not mean they have not been there, just that I havent seen them and I would be delighted to talk to them at the next NSTRA event they attend.


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## GSP Gal

FindTheBird said:


> Just curious, does anyone know what the RGS fun trial policy is regarding NSTRA amateur dogs?


Last time I checked, it was an actual title, not placement. So one would assume, (I know that is dangerous), that until we actually leave amature, we can still participate in RGS....for that matter, I believe that they use titles, not placements. 

I found it. Placements in coverdog, titles in everything else.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321824&highlight=hunt&page=2


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## Bobby

Again, our intent is not to exclude folks, it's to keep the event a fun event. Scott (and others) make good arguments with reasoned points. I appreciate the input.

Flash. These decisions were made with input from the board and a consensus from the board. 


Directors who have run or still run in NSTRA Trials: 
Chris Dimattio, Sec/Treas
Still runs and Judges NSTRA; Tom Vanecek
Others on the board gave their input to the questions that came directly to me. I ensure you that we will have additional discussions on these requirements.

I have no answer regarding NAVHDA or other Hunt Test placements. I do know there is a level of NAVDHA 'winners' that are not allowed in RGS fun trials.


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## Flash01

Thanks Bobby.


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## BIGSP

Bobby said:


> Again, our intent is not to exclude folks, it's to keep the event a fun event. Scott (and others) make good arguments with reasoned points. I appreciate the input.
> 
> Flash. These decisions were made with input from the board and a consensus from the board.
> 
> 
> Directors who have run or still run in NSTRA Trials:
> Chris Dimattio, Sec/Treas
> Still runs and Judges NSTRA; Tom Vanecek
> Others on the board gave their input to the questions that came directly to me. I ensure you that we will have additional discussions on these requirements.
> 
> I have no answer regarding NAVHDA or other Hunt Test placements. I do know there is a level of NAVDHA 'winners' that are not allowed in RGS fun trials.


Bobby,

I think this includes more folks than it excludes. For instance, I wouldn't run my dogs in this event if they allowed a bunch of basic semi pro dogs. People get intimidated when there are other dogs with placements at other venues. The folks that feel excluded can always run their dogs in the Amateur Shooting Dog Stakes on Saturday.


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## HuntersMoon

How many dogs do you have signed up so far and how many for a full event? With 3 trials that weekend will the campground fill up?


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## BradU20

Bobby, thank you for the time and energy you put into this event. 

You are never going to make everyone happy with these sorts of things


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## FieldWalker

Out of curiosity, do you find that most of the entries in "hunting dog stakes" are younger "not finished" dogs of the folks that normally compete in the other sanctioned stakes... or mostly new folks? 

This question isn't necessarily out of the blue, as I've been to several of these now (only entered in one)... but I'm always surprised how few "new to coverdog trials" these things usually lure. 

My suggestion to folks considering entering this... don't sign up with aspirations to necessarily go out and dominate... but more of an opportunity to check out some dogs and some people, and ideally walk a couple shooting dog braces. If you win something shiny and get a bag a dog food, good deal (not to mention you'll have your photo posted on here when the results come out... and again next year when the thread comes out).

This is just my 2 cents as a weekend warrior.


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## FindTheBird

FieldWalker said:


> Out of curiosity, do you find that most of the entries in "hunting dog stakes" are younger "not finished" dogs of the folks that normally compete in the other sanctioned stakes... or mostly new folks?
> 
> This question isn't necessarily out of the blue, as I've been to several of these now (only entered in one)... but I'm always surprised how few "new to coverdog trials" these things usually lure.
> 
> My suggestion to folks considering entering this... don't sign up with aspirations to necessarily go out and dominate... but more of an opportunity to check out some dogs and some people, and ideally walk a couple shooting dog braces. If you win something shiny and get a bag a dog food, good deal (not to mention you'll have your photo posted on here when the results come out... and again next year when the thread comes out).
> 
> This is just my 2 cents as a weekend warrior.


That's an easy one; the vast majority are weekenders with hunt'n dogs including a number of RGS'rs--at least since I began running in it. When I started running it, that's what I was (and effectively still am). 
That said, there are a few amateur trialers with their hunt'n dogs--don't let that discourage anybody, those dogs get taken to the cleaners as much if not more than any. Every dog has its day and any reasonable crap-eating meat dog can win this thing!


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## k9wernet

FieldWalker said:


> do you find that most of the entries in "hunting dog stakes" are younger "not finished" dogs of the folks that normally compete in the other sanctioned stakes... or mostly new folks?


I've been to two of these trials and two RGS trials. I've hunted grouse for 5-6 years and fired a gun for the first time 7-8 years ago. I'm about as green as they come. 

I had a great time at this event and found that most of the competition was like-minded. I didn't feel particularly out-classed or out-experienced. You spend a bit of time running your dog and watching other dogs do their thing, but most of the day is spent talking birds and bird dogs. Honestly, it felt a lot like a weekend at grouse camp, albeit with strangers.

KW


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## Bobby

First I'll answer some quotes I have copied, then I will attempt to explain some interesting info I discovered this evening.




Hunters Moon said:


> How many dogs do you have signed up so far and how many for a full event? With 3 trials that weekend will the campground fill up?


3 trials? There are 3 stakes at Gladwin that weekend not 3 trials. I am not trying to be condescending, just explaining the dichotomy of stakes vs trial. I have never seen the campgrounds full at the trial grounds, in the summer, spring or fall. Never in the 8 years I have attended. I don't know how many dogs are entered as I type, most entries come in the last 2 days. Normally we have 16 Shooting dogs, 20 Hunting Dogs and 14 Derbies. Those are the average entries for the last few summer trials. We would limit the number of hunting dogs by the amount of time we have to run. At this point the only event running on Sunday is Hunt Dog and we could easily run 14 braces, 28 dogs without trouble. We've never had that many. We have enough day light to run at least 20 braces, but I wouldn't want to. After ya'll leave we still have an hour or so of clean up to do before we head for home. 



BradU20 said:


> Bobby, thank you for the time and energy you put into this event.
> 
> You are never going to make everyone happy with these sorts of things


Thanks Brad. I'm very versed in the you can't make everybody happy scenario. I'm pretty good at not making people happy :evil: I have to work hard at that.



FieldWalker said:


> Out of curiosity, do you find that most of the entries in "hunting dog stakes" are younger "not finished" dogs of the folks that normally compete in the other sanctioned stakes... or mostly new folks? .


We get a number of folks for periods of time who only run this trial with their hunting dog(s) They have a good one and they enter as long as the dog is prime. We get some regular trialers who do one of the following 2 things, 1) run a young dog, an older puppy or a 1st year derby in hunt dog; 2) trailers who run their hunting only dog, a dog that isn't a trial dog. Ron Sposita ran his Lew last summer, for the first time, and won. That dog has never trialed. Many of the winners are not regular trialers. I looked thru the records I have and the winners are approx in equal proportion to the handlers who enter. New guys vs Regular trial guys. And last we get the one timers, or maybe 2 timers. An older fella came twice, took a 1st and then a 3rd and we've never seen him again. M1Tanker trolled down here once, filled his truck with stuff, including the blue and has stayed in the UP. 




What I learned tonight talking with someone who has competed in NSTRA & Coverdog/AF walking trials

There has been discussion regarding Amateur & Open events, comparing American Field (AF) sanctioned trials to NSTRA trials. I'm told tonight there is a major difference in regard to what or who is considered Amateur or Open.

In NSTRA it's the dog.
In AF it's the handler.

In AF or Coverdog the Open division is for all levels of HANDLER, professional or amateur. A professional handler is ANYBODY who accepts money from a client to train dogs (not just necessarily for trialing) or accepts money from a client to handle dogs in competitive events. (There are additional examples in the rules regarding pro's and family, pro's and co-owners of dogs. This is not necessary for this discussion. The info is available thru Google searches)

In NSTRA it is the dog that is considered the Amateur or Open division, regardless of the handler. I was told that even a Pro handler could run an Amateur dog in a NSTRA event.

Back to AF trials. A dog could be a multi time Open Champion, trained and handled by a pro for years. That dog can be entered in ANY amateur event, (for a Championship it would need an Amateur placement) handled by any amateur handler and is qualified to run and to win and would receive an Amateur placement. 


Dogs and handlers do not accumulate points in AF trials that add towards titles or Open status. 

A dog must qualify to enter any Championship, Amateur or Open. Qualification for an Open CH would normally be any Open Derby placement and in some cases an Open Shooting dog placement (or All Age) An Open placement would not qualify a dog for an Amateur CH, an Amateur placement is needed for that. 

You can not handle in an Amateur event as a Pro. A Pro cannot scout in an amateur event.

As it was explained to me that is the difference Open to Amateur, AF to NSTRA. That is a big difference and if accurate I now understand the posts regarding Amateur NSTRA placements and what I considered a diss by the posters of those threads of the NSTRA Amateur placements.

I think that's enough for tonight. I actually got out of bed to make this post. It was keeping me awake tonight.

Damn those Tigers.


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## Steelheadfred

GSP Gal said:


> Last time I checked, it was an actual title, not placement. So one would assume, (I know that is dangerous), that until we actually leave amature, we can still participate in RGS....for that matter, I believe that they use titles, not placements.
> 
> I found it. Placements in coverdog, titles in everything else.
> 
> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321824&highlight=hunt&page=2



Almost Sandy, placements in any open field trial, spaniel, retriever, pointing dog.

Essentially use common sense when it comes to the RGS program.


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## GSP Gal

Steelheadfred said:


> Almost Sandy, placements in any open field trial, spaniel, retriever, pointing dog.
> 
> Essentially use common sense when it comes to the RGS program.


Thanks Fritz! 

Until Schatzie's handler figures it out, we will be in amature a little while longer......


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## Bobby

The silence is deafening. How accurate was my last post regarding the information I was provided regarding Am-Open in NSTRA? I'm completely surprised there has been no response other than a PM from one member.

Thanks


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## Bobby

mcanes1 said:


> Bobby, and me for the "hunting dog for Sunday. I will follow up with Rich this afternoon, to make sure I'm in.
> In case you add me because of this post. Tell me what information you will need from me.
> 
> Rich


Call or write to Rich
He needs your name, dogs name, type and sex of dog and if a female, is it or might it be in season when we run the trial.
You pay when you show, see the guy whose picture I posted about 100 posts back.

Good luck


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## mcanes1

Bobby said:


> Call or write to Rich
> He needs your name, dogs name, type and sex of dog and if a female, is it or might it be in season when we run the trial.
> You pay when you show, see the guy whose picture I posted about 100 posts back.
> 
> Good luck



I'll go back find that post, since I'm bad with names / faces I'll make sure to right his name down.

Thanks again.


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## Brian121208

FindTheBird said:


> *On the other hand, the hunting dog classic allows beepers*, and the tracker rule is the same as described above. E-collars are not allowed in the hunting dog either.


 
I just wanted to make sure I have this correct, I can use a beeper collar in the hunting dog classic on Sunday. And I can run the beeper in run and point mode. Correct me if this is not right.
Thanks


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## mcanes1

I emailed Rich H. my request to run Sunday. But haven't heard back from anyone. Am I better off calling? I'm new so I don't know how this gets handled. 

Rich


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## midwestfisherman

mcanes1 said:


> I emailed Rich H. my request to run Sunday. But haven't heard back from anyone. Am I better off calling? I'm new so I don't know how this gets handled.
> 
> Rich


I'd definitely call, just in case he didn't get your email.


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## mcanes1

Thanks, I just got off the website and got his phone number.


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## Bobby

Brian121208 said:


> I just wanted to make sure I have this correct, I can use a beeper collar in the hunting dog classic on Sunday. And I can run the beeper in run and point mode. Correct me if this is not right.
> Thanks


Beeper only collars are OK. If they are combined with an E Collar, not so OK



mcancer1 said:


> I emailed Rich H. my request to run Sunday. But haven't heard back from anyone. Am I better off calling? I'm new so I don't know how this gets handled.
> 
> Rich


If you haven't heard from him, call to confirm, 989-390-7805, or send me a PM and I'll make certain you are in. 

As of last night we had 21 Hunt Dogs entered
14 Derbies and 13 Shooting dogs


When I get a bit of time I will post some additional information for the new folks on what to expect when you come up. How things run, what you should be aware of, protocol and etiquette.


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## mcanes1

"If you haven't heard from him, call to confirm, 989-390-7805, or send me a PM and I'll make certain you are in. 

As of last night we had 21 Hunt Dogs entered
14 Derbies and 13 Shooting dogs


When I get a bit of time I will post some additional information for the new folks on what to expect when you come up. How things run, what you should be aware of, protocol and etiquette."


I'll give Rich a call on my way home from work tonight. If I don't get ahold of him, I'll follow up with you, tomorrow.
The additional information is a good idea, the last thing I would want to do is tick off someone for doing something wrong due to lack of experience.


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## FindTheBird

Bobby said:


> ...As of last night we had 21 Hunt Dogs entered...


Nice entry; I bet it winds-up being North of 25 dogs.


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## mcanes1

Thanks Bobby, I'm all set. I got ahold of Rich yesterday afternoon. And we talked again this morning, just confirming my dog's information. I'm looking forward to meeting as many as you guys as possible.
My female GSP (Sadie) is mostly liver with a "Porterhouse" looking white patch on her chest and white socks on her front legs. 
Please come up and say hi.


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## RecurveRx

mcanes1 said:


> Th
> My female GSP (Sadie) is mostly liver with a "Porterhouse" looking white patch on her chest and white socks on her front legs.
> Please come up and say hi.


I will be the other guy with a shorthair there. Should be easy for us to meet since they make us park around back. :yikes:


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## RecurveRx

FindTheBird said:


> Nice entry; I bet it winds-up being North of 25 dogs.


Let's just hope it doesn't wind-up being North of 90 degrees. :gaga:

That reminds me, make that 3 shorthairs mcanes. :lol:


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## GSP Gal

RecurveRx said:


> Let's just hope it doesn't wind-up being North of 90 degrees. :gaga:


Sissies! :lol::lol:


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## FindTheBird

RecurveRx said:


> That reminds me, make that 3 shorthairs mcanes. :lol:


ha ha ha!:cheeky-sm 

As Mike eluded to, I have the stub-tailed pointer, who to the very severely mentally challenged among us:evil: may look like a GSP. 
Be sure to say "hi" Mcanes! 

I'm also staying at East Bay Lodge Friday afternoon through Sunday A.M. I'll be the guy with a dog at my side and a beer or Crown in hand (oh, wait a minute, I think that describes everybody there:lol. http://www.eastbaylodge.com/


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## Bobby

To the new guys competing or just visiting this weekend, here is information on how things are run. 

The Shooting Dog stake on Saturday & the Hunting Dog Classic on Sunday run on continuous courses thru the woods. These courses do not loop back to the beginning, the place where your truck is parked.
At the break away of each brace and thru out the brace the dogs lead, the handlers on foot are next, followed by the Judges on horse and then the gallery. You are welcome to walk; you&#8217;re encouraged to walk. It&#8217;s correct to be quiet and not interfere. When dogs stop on point the handler and the judge will go to the dog. We ask that the gallery stay on course, help control the horses and help the handler and judge back to the course after they are done flushing etc. It causes too much commotion for the gallery to go into the woods with a dog on point.

Some of us will stay back and not walk, we will move trucks to the end of the course being run and in most cases this will be the start of the next course. If you want your truck moved leave the keys in it. Usually in the hunt dog stake we get a bigger gallery than the other stakes. If possible please pair up or triple up with others for a ride to the various courses. Leave some trucks back at the Alibi; especially if you are done running and you don&#8217;t need your dog with you. This makes it easier on the folks moving vehicles. We move them is this order, handlers first, usually 2 trucks, the next brace mates next, the rest of the vehicles if we have enough help. If not we may leave trucks behind and you will have to catch up at some point.
There is an accurate map of the grounds accessed thru the links at our blog site. 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1510196/Gladwin Courses - 10222009.jpg

There aren&#8217;t bill boards in the woods advertising the start or end of each course but MOST of the courses have free standing signs or paint on trees with numbers. Find someone who knows where they are going and follow them or jump in and ride with them.

We will break for lunch around noon. Lunch is catered, it&#8217;s back at the Alibi and we request/require a donation, $5 (lunch is not included with an entry fee) there is a coffee can in the Alibi, clearly marked for your donation. These lunches are worth $5 and include pop and bottled water. 

I&#8217;ll have the black GMC pickup with an ARE cap. In the back will be a cooler with pop & water. This is for all to share. We might have a little coffee in the morning and probably some donuts. If you bring beer, and that is encouraged, please bring a cooler full and be promiscuous with it. Bourbon is nice touch too, especially for the Judges. Knob Creek is a nice choice. I&#8217;m currently working thru a bottle of BASIL HAYDEN'S Kentucky Straight Bourbon. It&#8217;s real good. Cubed ice is preferred over crushed.

Look for Chris Demattio and pay your entry. It&#8217;s a widely held belief that luck shines down on those who pay before they run.

The weather forecast is sunny skies and heat. Bring water for your dog on course and maybe enough to wet the dog down before your brace and even a gallon jug to wet them down during the brace. That practice is perfectly acceptable. Each handler can designate one person in the gallery to be a scout, a person who can go into the woods and look for your dog if you have lost him or go in with you when the dog stops and you are trying to find him on point. That is a good person to carry that gallon jug(s) of water.

Most folks run bells. Beepers are fine too, but beepers without an e-collar. Trackers and Garmins are allowed but only for finding a lost dog. Once you use the receiver you are out of contention. You can&#8217;t win the stake, but you&#8217;ll find your dog. We haven&#8217;t had very many run off hunting dogs. I can&#8217;t recall any (but there had to be one)

Bring your dog to the start line on a lead. Both handlers will be in front, usually on each side of the trail. Some one will announce to the judges the names of the dogs and handlers. One judge will be assigned to each 2-some. If possible the judges will switch at the half way point. Most of the time the handlers and judges will be together the entire brace and both judges will see both dogs.

When the judges give the word let the dog roll. Walk the marked trail at a leisurely pace, a hunting pace. What ever you use to handle your dog when you hunt do it as required during your brace. Whistles, singing, hand signals. Don&#8217;t be too concerned with the other handler or dog. If the judges think your handling is interfering with the brace mate they will inform you. We will have a marshal (maybe 2) on each brace. They will help you thru the course; help you keep track of your dog. If you have any questions at any time, ask. Ask the judges, ask the marshal, ask some one who looks like they might know. 

When your dog stops, the dog is on point, call point to the judge. They will jump off the horse and follow you to the dog. Make certain they are with you. Marshals may go to. Your scout can also go. The judges have to see or hear the bird go out to get credit for a find. Do what you would do when hunting (except shoot the bird) Flush for as long as you think necessary. Be cognizant that only hearing a bird fly is good enough. The more you talk while flushing the less chance any one has to hear. If you want to relocate your dog just tell the judge. If you release verbally tell him that&#8217;s what you will do. When a bird goes you can yell bird, point in the direction, it helps the judges. Then shoot the blank gun.

After a find you can release the dog to continue or you can collar the dog back to the trail, water the dog, etc. You don&#8217;t want to release the dog after a point and have the dog chasing after the bird that just left. If that is &#8220;normal&#8221; just collar the dog back to the trail and wait for the judges to mount. Don&#8217;t run ahead. The first one to the end of the course doesn&#8217;t win anything. Slow down thru good cover, speed up thru bad cover. Don&#8217;t bury your brace mate (take off) but when a brace mate goes to a dog on point you are not obligated to wait. Keep moving, the judge will go with you. You can slow down a bit but again, it&#8217;s not required to wait, the judges will keep you straight if this happens.

You can have a scout. If the dog is out of hearing range and you want someone to go into the woods and find him you can send a scout. There really isn&#8217;t much scouting in hunt dog, these dogs aren&#8217;t wild ass run off trial dogs (for the most part) A scout can go in on point to help find etc. The handler flushes.

At the end of the day we&#8217;ll return to the Alibi and I&#8217;ll bore every one with the canned speech and then we will name the winners, and take photos. It&#8217;s nice if lots of folks stay around for the photo shoot, not just the placements. 

Saturday we will have a cook out following the day&#8217;s activities. The menu is grilled pork loin. We ask that you bring something to pass that would compliment the dinner. 

That covers the main points. Just have fun, that&#8217;s what this is about. But it&#8217;s also competition. Grit your teeth and give the judges a show.

Good luck to all.


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## FindTheBird

Bobby said:


> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1510196/Gladwin Courses - 10222009.jpg


Ideally, you should follow or ride with somebody with knowlege of the area to your course, but in the odd situation where you don't, here are the GPS coordinates for most of the courses that go along with the map above:
The course names are suffixed with ("S") and end ("E"). For example, "G3S" is the start of course #3, "G3E" is the end of course #3. These should get you to within 100 yards of your designated course, from there look around for an official DNR sign or a course number painted on the trees, usually with blue paint if I recall. Many of the course starting points are within a couple hundred yards previous course end points (but not all!).

I believe that these coordinates are fairly accurate (I had a small hand in gathering them and making the map and rely on them heavily when spectating) but it might be prudent to verify the location well prior to your brace by actually going to the start of your course if want to attempt to get there without assistance. 

Alibi Hall N44.14139 W84.57029
Bird Field N44.14154 W84.57800
Dead-end Road N44.16065 W84.58862

G1S N44.13802 W84.55833

G2S N44.13853 W84.54933
G2E N44.14939 W84.54934

G3S N44.14909 W84.55279
G3E N44.14040 W84.54163

G4S N44.14083 W84.53760
G4E N44.14946 W84.54442

G5S N44.14825 W84.53066
G5E N44.13947 W84.53473

G6S N44.14095 W84.53617
G6E N44.13800 W84.55103

G7S N44.13794 W84.55418
G7E N44.14733 W84.56164

G8S N44.14809 W84.55769
G9S, G8E N44.16006 W84.56419
G9E N44.15798 W84.57561

G10S N44.15869 W84.57641
G11S, G10E N44.14661 W84.58602
G11E N44.15701 W84.59233

G12S N44.15764 W84.59027
G12E N44.15027 W84.59845

G13S N44.14962 W84.59828

G15E N44.14666 W84.58841 

Gate N44.14964 W84.59241

Gate-HWY M18 N44.14272 W84.60728
G-Puppy N44.15822 W84.54093


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## Bobby

Thanks Mike. I knew some one had that info.

After Mike posted the way points I got to thinking about the changes we make on a constant basis to the courses. The way point listed above for Start of course 1 is old. It has moved 2 times since. (I checked it on Google Maps) It is accurate on the linked map. (I don't have a way point for 1.) All the courses as currently shown on the map are accurate. Course 13, 14, & 15 are not shown on the map. All the other way points listed by Mike (that I checked) are correct. 
We will *PROBABLY* start on course 7 and run thru 12 or 13 and then move to course 1 after lunch, *KEY WORD-----PROBABLY*.
The course order will be posted with the draw.


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## FindTheBird

Thanks Bob, I'm on my way to Gladwin to grab Rock (for a week) and will see if I can get coordinates at minimum, for course #1.

Edit: Here are the coordinates for the beginning of course #1:
N44.13837 W84.55773


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## Bobby

Mike. That way point is better. That's the latest start of course 1. 
Thanks


1st 
There are rooms available at the east Bay Lodge. Normally there aren't many for our summer trial. This year they have a few left as of a few minutes back. Call Randy/Lorrie they will be happy to help you out.
http://www.eastbaylodge.com/

Saturday's dinner
The club will sponsor/host a dinner for all folks that want to attend. We will fire up the grille following the days running and will provide a FULL meal (earlier we asked that folks bring something to pass) We know that can be difficult and it's usually a bunch of guys......., therefore the change in format. The menu consists of pork loin, corn on the cob (it is Summer Time in Northern Michigan) and some potato and/or cole slaw. I will still encourage anyone who desires to show off their culinary skills to bring a favorite dish or dessert. I would absolutely welcome a fresh baked pie from Judy's Pie at the corner of Linwood Rd and M13. (that would be east from exit 173 on I-75) Just south of there on M13 is Rosies Pies, just as good. If you're coming from NW Mich a McColleys Pie would be fantastic. They have their shop at M72 & CO 571, just east of Kalkaska. They can also be picked up at many stores. Peach cobbler is a winner. Do you see the theme?

The draw
right now we will have a long and busy weekend. 

Saturday
26 plus shooting dogs
16 plus derbies
I say plus becuase we have folks who say they will enter who have yet to actually do so.

Sunday
approaching 30 Hunting dogs for Sunday. That may be the largest HD draw we have ever run. Thank you for the entries. It will be a long day but it will be fun.


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