# Dnr harassing me



## TreeDizzle

Just one mans opinion,but if you are making any sudden movement at the end of your drift, you are snagging. If you are snagging more fish that you are hooking legally, you are snagging. Just because it's in the mouth, doesn't mean it bit...just means you placed your line/fly well. There are multiple methods listed above that will result in less than 1% of your fish being snagged. 

So the DNR plants these fish and they are going to spawn and die, that doesn't make a SPORTSMAN who purchased a fishing liscense entitled to the fish. You still need to fool the fish into biting, isn't that what the sport of fishing was founded on?


----------



## Trout King

I'm sure there is another side or 3 to the story. Maybe we will get to read about it in a few weeks?

Not saying Niko isn't telling the truth, but usually the DNR officers aren't just out to get people for fishing legally.


----------



## Waif

TreeDizzle said:


> Just one mans opinion,but if you are making any sudden movement at the end of your drift, you are snagging. If you are snagging more fish that you are hooking legally, you are snagging. Just because it's in the mouth, doesn't mean it bit...just means you placed your line/fly well. There are multiple methods listed above that will result in less than 1% of your fish being snagged.
> 
> So the DNR plants these fish and they are going to spawn and die, that doesn't make a SPORTSMAN who purchased a fishing liscense entitled to the fish. You still need to fool the fish into biting, isn't that what the sport of fishing was founded on?


Don' t make any sudden movement? l.o.l..
If your drift ends on the fish ,you are doing it wrong. Or are you fishing with weight stationary on the bottom at a chosen spot in the drift?


----------



## Nostromo

wdf73 said:


> And next step, go back and fish in the same area. If the guy starts yelling at you again, pull out your phone and report him for harassment


Way more trouble than it's worth.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Nostromo said:


> Way more trouble than it's worth.


You got that right. I quit the "combat fishing" years ago, it was not worth the hassle. I have stopped hunting state land on openers, for the same reason.


----------



## Fishndude

I will add that COs are all very experienced at observing anglers, and determining whether actions are likely to snag fish, or not. They are experts, and have seen actual snagging many many times. Intentional snagging is not legal, just because the snagged fish are released. And justifying snagging with the argument that the fish are just going to die anyway has no merit. 

I am not taking a side on Niko's specific situation - I wasn't there. Just adding some insight from my experience, and from working with COs in the past.


----------



## Scadsobees

wdf73 said:


> You are not required to prove your innocence, he is required to prove your guilt.
> Make him prove it


HA HA this is the DNR. He proved it by writing the ticket. The OP is lucky the guy just wrote him a ticket and didn't decide to take his gear and vehicle and keep it claiming it was used for snagging. They have more leeway to do more and take more than the police do. 
I know most of them are good guys, but a few of the stories I've heard....


----------



## TreeDizzle

Waif said:


> Don' t make any sudden movement? l.o.l..
> If your drift ends on the fish ,you are doing it wrong. Or are you fishing with weight stationary on the bottom at a chosen spot in the drift?


I'll let your conscience be the judge. You must be good if your drift ends on the fish every drift...wait, they are stacked up in bath water sucking oxygen to survive...of course your drift is going to "end" on the fish. A hookset should occur when a fish bites, not when you bite the fish.


----------



## TreeDizzle

Waif said:


> Don' t make any sudden movement? l.o.l..
> If your drift ends on the fish ,you are doing it wrong. Or are you fishing with weight stationary on the bottom at a chosen spot in the drift?


Let me simplify things, if you change your fishing technique at all with a CO standing over your shoulder, you are snagging


----------



## Whitetail_hunter

Like others have said make him prove it. Go to arraignment plead not guilty next they will try to make a deal, tell them to shove it. Charges dropped, unless of course you really were blatantly snagging.


----------



## gatorman841

Trout King said:


> I'm sure there is another side or 3 to the story. Maybe we will get to read about it in a few weeks?
> 
> Not saying Niko isn't telling the truth, but usually the DNR officers aren't just out to get people for fishing legally.


I agree most 95% of dnr officers I have met are very nice upstanding people. If he got a ticket for snagging seems like the co would have inspected and taken his fish right? Stories heard online are difficult to interpret since your not there but if what everything the op said is true I do not see anything wrong with his method of fishing. I'm a rookie to coho fishing but after 2 hours of trail and error last wknd I was able to put a nice limit together. I don't agree with the people who said just walk away and leave that seems to me if you stayed away from that area then you'd be admitting guilt. Maybe bring your rig to nearest dnr field office and speak with a supervisor show him how your fishing and ask him what part of it is illegal. Only way to know the proper way if you felt you were in the right. Lots of fish to be caught for everyone if you put your time in. But never let someone tell you that this is their fishing spot In public waters we all have the right to fish there, first come first serve and use good fishing etiquette. Maybe I'll see some off you out there tomorrow if I go. Good luck hopefully this cooler weather gets the bite really kicked in.


----------



## Trout King

gatorman841 said:


> I agree most 95% of dnr officers I have met are very nice upstanding people. If he got a ticket for snagging seems like the co would have inspected and taken his fish right? Stories heard online are difficult to interpret since your not there but if what everything the op said is true I do not see anything wrong with his method of fishing. I'm a rookie to coho fishing but after 2 hours of trail and error last wknd I was able to put a nice limit together. I don't agree with the people who said just walk away and leave that seems to me if you stayed away from that area then you'd be admitting guilt. Maybe bring your rig to nearest dnr field office and speak with a supervisor show him how your fishing and ask him what part of it is illegal. Only way to know the proper way if you felt you were in the right. Lots of fish to be caught for everyone if you put your time in. But never let someone tell you that this is their fishing spot In public waters we all have the right to fish there, first come first serve and use good fishing etiquette. Maybe I'll see some off you out there tomorrow if I go. Good luck hopefully this cooler weather gets the bite really kicked in.


I'm sure the issue wasn't so much with his legal rig, but the technique he was using with that rig. "Setting the hook" frequently or to "avoid snags" without a majority of those sets resulting in head shakes is usually a tell tale sign of attempting to snag to a DNR officer. 

I wasn't there, but I have seen enough and done enough fishing to know whats going on when I see snagging or flossing (also technically illegal). If he was outfishing the guys floating bobber and eggs for coho I think the fish probably weren't biting his flies. Now flies on steelhead is another story altogether.


----------



## Far Beyond Driven

HA HA this is the DNR. He proved it by writing the ticket. The OP is lucky the guy just wrote him a ticket and didn't decide to take his gear and vehicle and keep it claiming it was used for snagging.


So I shot a wood duck and crippled it. Got in my boat, ran up to the duck. Stopped the boat. Waited until the boat stopped moving, loaded my gun, and finished off the duck. Only put one round in the gun, so it was empty after I shot. Get my duck, motor up to the beach, tie up the boat and start climbing the hill while loading my gun.

CO jumps out and without identifying himself says "I'm writing you a ticket for a loaded gun in a boat under power". Says I was unloading the gun as soon as I saw him. Uh, no. I was loading the gun with my head down as there's a lot of brush that likes to whip you in the face, and literally was within 2' of him when he jumped out. I then explained the law, how I followed it, and asked if I was getting a ticket. He said yes. I asked him how he planned on defending it, and he told me it would be my word against his and I'd lose. He had a probationary CO with him, and I asked what he thought about this BS, and he would not answer. 

I just walked away from the guy and went back to hunting, and he came over and kicked over my friend's $3000 camera / bag, as he's a writer and takes pictures when we hunt. Leaves it open to the rain. I try to put it back in the bag and he tells me to leave it alone. My large, I mean very large friend comes back from getting a bird, sees the bag, and just says "WTF" to the CO. 

The CO and the PCO go up the hill and have a chat, come back down, and tell me I'm lucky I'm not going to jail that day, and I'm not getting a ticket. As they walk away, I down another duck. I shuck the remaining two shells into my pocket, hold the gun up the whole way to the duck and back, and then pull up on shore, kill the motor, then rack in three shells as loudly as I can.

Same CO later told me he was going to write me a ticket for "camping" at a parking lot at Fennville, while scouting the last 30 minutes of dusk. I had two small kids and no provisions to stay more than an hour with them, but I was going to get a ticket for "camping". Told me I had to leave immediately. Asked why. Because I was camping. Told him I was staying until dark, then leaving, but I'd be back the next morning to hunt if he wanted to harass me some more. 

So yes, CO's, well at least that one, prove nothing, I mean NOTHING by writing a ticket.

That said, every other CO I've ran into, and it's probably been a dozen+ all across the LP, have been awesome, professional, helpful, and even funny.


----------



## gotigers

I think you're probably snagging, but I believe that you don't intend/think you are.

If you got a ticket from the first officer I would say fight it. But since you were warned, and I'm sure he explained why and how you could adjust your tactics, you probably should've given more consideration to what he said.

I very rarely foul hook a fish, even when bottom bouncing. So if half of your fish are foul hooked and an officer suggests you fish differently you should be honest with yourself and not just brush it off.


----------



## Jimbos

Far Beyond Driven said:


> HA HA this is the DNR. He proved it by writing the ticket. The OP is lucky the guy just wrote him a ticket and didn't decide to take his gear and vehicle and keep it claiming it was used for snagging.
> 
> 
> So I shot a wood duck and crippled it. Got in my boat, ran up to the duck. Stopped the boat. Waited until the boat stopped moving, loaded my gun, and finished off the duck. Only put one round in the gun, so it was empty after I shot. Get my duck, motor up to the beach, tie up the boat and start climbing the hill while loading my gun.
> 
> CO jumps out and without identifying himself says "I'm writing you a ticket for a loaded gun in a boat under power". Says I was unloading the gun as soon as I saw him. Uh, no. I was loading the gun with my head down as there's a lot of brush that likes to whip you in the face, and literally was within 2' of him when he jumped out. I then explained the law, how I followed it, and asked if I was getting a ticket. He said yes. I asked him how he planned on defending it, and he told me it would be my word against his and I'd lose. He had a probationary CO with him, and I asked what he thought about this BS, and he would not answer.
> 
> I just walked away from the guy and went back to hunting, and he came over and kicked over my friend's $3000 camera / bag, as he's a writer and takes pictures when we hunt. Leaves it open to the rain. I try to put it back in the bag and he tells me to leave it alone. My large, I mean very large friend comes back from getting a bird, sees the bag, and just says "WTF" to the CO.
> 
> The CO and the PCO go up the hill and have a chat, come back down, and tell me I'm lucky I'm not going to jail that day, and I'm not getting a ticket. As they walk away, I down another duck. I shuck the remaining two shells into my pocket, hold the gun up the whole way to the duck and back, and then pull up on shore, kill the motor, then rack in three shells as loudly as I can.
> 
> Same CO later told me he was going to write me a ticket for "camping" at a parking lot at Fennville, while scouting the last 30 minutes of dusk. I had two small kids and no provisions to stay more than an hour with them, but I was going to get a ticket for "camping". Told me I had to leave immediately. Asked why. Because I was camping. Told him I was staying until dark, then leaving, but I'd be back the next morning to hunt if he wanted to harass me some more.
> 
> So yes, CO's, well at least that one, prove nothing, I mean NOTHING by writing a ticket.
> 
> That said, every other CO I've ran into, and it's probably been a dozen+ all across the LP, have been awesome, professional, helpful, and even funny.


----------



## Waif

TreeDizzle said:


> Let me simplify things, if you change your fishing technique at all with a CO standing over your shoulder, you are snagging


I have the time to fight in court if I am in the right.
I have every right to change technique at will.
Snagging is deliberately foul hooking fish.
The judge is welcomed to lean back on a rod while I hold the tag end a twenty feet ,then trade ends with me. Then answer how much force is required to tug stuck weights out of rock or stones , and how much rod twitch it takes.
Maybe some one can demonstrate to the judge how effective a 3/ 8 or smaller gap on a single hook ( or two) rigged with weight above them are for snagging ,but it sure won' t be me. Maybe the law is wrong and we should only be allowed size 14 hooks?


----------



## Bowfin1

Since you were warned and continued to fish in a manner that the officer deemed as snagging, you may have trouble fighting the ticket. However, you are innocent until proven guilty. Good luck.


----------



## rftech

When salmon fishing, I do not pull back in the drift. When I hook up, usually a fish hits the fly and takes off. Then I pull back. Why do I not pull back? To avoid any foul hooks. A foul hook can still happen, but if it does, I break off. That means a retie. I may lose some fish that hit light by not pulling back, but I do real well when fishing for salmon. And my foul hooks are at a minimum. I never use a net. To be able to control the fish and beach them, you need to hook them in the mouth. Most of my mouth hook ups are towards the front and middle of the mouth. I have learned to change flies if they do not bite. Get the right fly on, and you will hook up immediately.


----------



## shrek527

Sounds like an abuse of power to me. CO's need to be trained on proper fishing techniques or not write tickets.


----------



## SJC

One time a group of us were fishing the surf and had caught and released a bunch of fish. We also kept a few and threw them in a puddle between sandbars. Anyway, a CO shows up and after checking licenses, says that he had a report that we had caught way over our limit. We told him that we had released most fish, but kept a few. He asked to see our fish. When we showed him the fish in the pool, he said he could write tickets because he had no way of knowing who caught what and that everyone needed to keep their fish on a separate stringer. I asked what about when you are fishing in a boat and all the fish go in the same cooler. He didn't have an answer. He then asked who caught what. A couple guys had two fish apiece. He then asked which rods were theirs and told them that he could write tickets because since they only had one fish to go, they could only fish with one rod. Again I asked about boats fishing with all the rods til the boat limit was filled. He ended up giving us a "warning" and leaving. Sometimes I think when they arrive on a call expecting to write a ticket and can't, it can turn into borderline harassment.


----------



## riverbob

shrek527 said:


> Sounds like an abuse of power to me. CO's need to be trained on proper fishing techniques or not write tickets.


I disagree,what makes u think they don't know a shady technique when they see it, he was told earlier his technique was shaky, it sounds like he was pressing his luck (nikotan1 don't take offence it's my opinion n opinions r like Aholes we all got one) i've been outdooring it a long time i've seen good CO's n bad ones also i've got good tickets n bad tickets, got a tic tic once for attempting to process a white tailed deer with a club. once i broke the law n took it to court n the judge seen it my way n said u broke mans law but not gods law, he let me go no fine, now if i'm fishing n my technique causes me to start hooking more then one fish in one of the 3 b's (butt,belly or back) it's time to change my technique u should of changed yours, what u were doing is not fishing it's called hunting


----------



## piscatorial warrior

In 35 years of fishing I have received 3 tickets from Conservation Officers. I have taken all 3 to court. I have yet to pay a fine. Just because you are issued a ticket by a CO or other LEO isn't proof that you broke the law. ALWAYS keep the rule book in your car and bone up on the rules of the area you are fishing before you go.

Oh yeah, if you ever run into a CO named Mike Wells, ( He used to work Oscoda but I ran into him on the PM awhile back) He doesn't take any crap but he's a pretty straight up guy. If he writes you a ticket you probably deserve it.


----------



## danthebuilder

You 100% understand that if you kept those fish it would be illegal right? You basically already admitted that to us and the C.O. I am sure. The way the law is written. *Catching a fish* not hooked in the mouth *is just as illegal* as *keeping a fish* not hooked in the mouth. Saying that, if you're doing things right nobody is going to give you a ticket for hooking up outside the mouth once a while. Its just not a big deal. It happens. That first C.O. had you and gave you a warning. He could have absolutely written you a ticket. If you ever run into the first C.O. again. You should apologize to him & thank him for giving you a warning. Even if you're not sorry and not thankful, he's going to remember you forever. 

The C.O. on the 2nd day he probably didn't even talk to the C.O. from day #1. He just accused you of garbage that he knew wasn't true and you gave your story which included every single thing he needed for him to write you an ticket. The C.O. on the 2nd day. He didn't even need to see you fishing. Your words that you gave him & you gave us was all that was needed for him to write that ticket.

There is a saying on the internet. The quickest way to get the answer to a question is to not ask a question. The quickest way to get an answer to a question, is to give a wrong answer. If someone posts something that is wrong. People can't help themselves and always must correct it. The C.O.'s gave you the wrong answer. He lied to you on purpose because they know you couldn't help yourself from telling mostly the truth. They are taught this in school. Its not against the law for them to lie to you. You don't know the law. You're ignorant of what the actual law is, so you got yourself in trouble. That's why every single lawyer tells you to just keep your mouth shut when it comes to talking to law enforcement. You think you're helping yourself when you're just hurting yourself.

Here is the really terrible part of your case. A C.O. warned you day #1 and the next day a completely different C.O. wrote you a ticket. No judge is going to take your word against the word of basically 2 C.O's. In the judge's eyes you already got a HUGE break from the first C.O. that warned you. You're guilty & screwed.

If your background check matters like what FBD has said in this thread. You need to hire a lawyer. I'd try to find a lawyer that fishes & pray the C.O. doesn't show up.

That book that the DNR hands out. It's honestly worthless. You didn't get accused of violating a page/paragraph in the book. You were accused of violating a MCL. *What MCL was listed on the ticket?*

Also, like others have said, buy a bobber.


----------



## wdf73

I am amazed at how some people use a case like this as a plug for their favorite fishing technique, rather than the merits of the OP and his situation. 
The fact is the only thing that stands here is the law. You may think everyone else is fishing in an unethical manner, but unless they are going against a specific law, you have no ground to stand on and neither does a law enforcement officers.
Niko, you are the only one here who knows whether you were trying to foul hook fish or not.
The law states "attempting to foul hook" if I recall correctly. 
If you were, then man up, pay your fine and learn a lesson. If you were not, then don't be intimidated by so called experts who tell you to use a different rig, or by misinformed COs. 
The law states that any foul hooked fish must be immediately released, not that it is illegal to accidentally foul hook a fish.
As long as you were following existing laws, you were in the right, regardless of what the holier than thou folks tell you. Until there is a specific law stating that it is illegal to move your fishing rod during a drift, or to attempt to set the hook more than once during a drift, than it is legal to do so. Period. 
If the charge was attempting to snag fish, then bring all your fishing buddies to court to testify that you refuse to keep foul hooked fish (I assume this is true). Bring pictures of fish you have caught with thundersticks etc. Print out threads from this site, where you have been asking for ways to get fish to bite. Bring all your fishing gear, to show you are not using snagging equipment. I can't guarantee you success in court, but do the best you can. 
And again, go back and fish the same area with friends, preferably older than yourself. Use a technique that cannot be construed as snagging in any way. Have as many people you know there as possible. Record, or better videotape any more interactions with either your friendly local fisherman or Co. 
The thing that troubles me the most about your experience was the order to not come back. Regardless of whether you were in the right or not, NOBODY has the right to tell you not to come back to public property. That was completely wrong. I suspect that the CO was buddies with the fisherman who didn't want you there, and you were victim of an intimidation tactic to keep you away. There are bad COs as well as bad people on every other profession, regardless of what some on this site would have you believe


----------



## swampbuck

wdf73 said:


> I am amazed at how some people use a case like this as a plug for their favorite fishing technique, rather than the merits of the OP and his situation.
> The fact is the only thing that stands here is the law. You may think everyone else is fishing in an unethical manner, but unless they are going against a specific law, you have no ground to stand on and neither does a law enforcement officers.
> Niko, you are the only one here who knows whether you were trying to foul hook fish or not.
> The law states "attempting to foul hook" if I recall correctly.
> If you were, then man up, pay your fine and learn a lesson. If you were not, then don't be intimidated by so called experts who tell you to use a different rig, or by misinformed COs.
> The law states that any foul hooked fish must be immediately released, not that it is illegal to accidentally foul hook a fish.
> As long as you were following existing laws, you were in the right, regardless of what the holier than thou folks tell you. Until there is a specific law stating that it is illegal to move your fishing rod during a drift, or to attempt to set the hook more than once during a drift, than it is legal to do so. Period.
> If the charge was attempting to snag fish, then bring all your fishing buddies to court to testify that you refuse to keep foul hooked fish (I assume this is true). Bring pictures of fish you have caught with thundersticks etc. Print out threads from this site, where you have been asking for ways to get fish to bite. Bring all your fishing gear, to show you are not using snagging equipment. I can't guarantee you success in court, but do the best you can.
> And again, go back and fish the same area with friends, preferably older than yourself. Use a technique that cannot be construed as snagging in any way. Have as many people you know there as possible. Record, or better videotape any more interactions with either your friendly local fisherman or Co.
> The thing that troubles me the most about your experience was the order to not come back. Regardless of whether you were in the right or not, NOBODY has the right to tell you not to come back to public property. That was completely wrong. I suspect that the CO was buddies with the fisherman who didn't want you there, and you were victim of an intimidation tactic to keep you away. There are bad COs as well as bad people on every other profession, regardless of what some on this site would have you believe


Well said !


----------



## TreeDizzle

wdf73 said:


> I am amazed at how some people use a case like this as a plug for their favorite fishing technique, rather than the merits of the OP and his situation.
> The fact is the only thing that stands here is the law. You may think everyone else is fishing in an unethical manner, but unless they are going against a specific law, you have no ground to stand on and neither does a law enforcement officers.
> Niko, you are the only one here who knows whether you were trying to foul hook fish or not.
> The law states "attempting to foul hook" if I recall correctly.
> If you were, then man up, pay your fine and learn a lesson. If you were not, then don't be intimidated by so called experts who tell you to use a different rig, or by misinformed COs.
> The law states that any foul hooked fish must be immediately released, not that it is illegal to accidentally foul hook a fish.
> As long as you were following existing laws, you were in the right, regardless of what the holier than thou folks tell you. Until there is a specific law stating that it is illegal to move your fishing rod during a drift, or to attempt to set the hook more than once during a drift, than it is legal to do so. Period.
> If the charge was attempting to snag fish, then bring all your fishing buddies to court to testify that you refuse to keep foul hooked fish (I assume this is true). Bring pictures of fish you have caught with thundersticks etc. Print out threads from this site, where you have been asking for ways to get fish to bite. Bring all your fishing gear, to show you are not using snagging equipment. I can't guarantee you success in court, but do the best you can.
> And again, go back and fish the same area with friends, preferably older than yourself. Use a technique that cannot be construed as snagging in any way. Have as many people you know there as possible. Record, or better videotape any more interactions with either your friendly local fisherman or Co.
> The thing that troubles me the most about your experience was the order to not come back. Regardless of whether you were in the right or not, NOBODY has the right to tell you not to come back to public property. That was completely wrong. I suspect that the CO was buddies with the fisherman who didn't want you there, and you were victim of an intimidation tactic to keep you away. There are bad COs as well as bad people on every other profession, regardless of what some on this site would have you believe


Just because someone and their fishing buddies "commonly" fish legally,doesn't mean they won't get frustrated at coho with lockjaw, and decide to bend the rules once in awhile. If you are consistently foul hooking fish "by accident", my guess is your technique could use some adjustments. Just because you release a foul hooked fish doesn't mean that you aren't attempting to snag.I agree, nobody knows the truth here besides Niko and the two CO's and any other witness around.


----------



## wdf73

TreeDizzle said:


> Just because someone and their fishing buddies "commonly" fish legally,doesn't mean they won't get frustrated at coho with lockjaw, and decide to bend the rules once in awhile. If you are consistently foul hooking fish "by accident", my guess is your technique could use some adjustments. Just because you release a foul hooked fish doesn't mean that you aren't attempting to snag.I agree, nobody knows the truth here besides Niko and the two CO's and any other witness around.


I mostly agree with you. However I would say Niko is the only one who knows whether his intention was to snag fish. The COs and any other witnesses can make conclusions based on their observations, but the OP is the only one who truly knows his intent.
One thing I personally tend to forget when I get on my soapbox about snagging and other unethical fishing behavior is the fact that I personally spent many frustrating years trying to learn how to legally catch fish, (and if I am honest, at times maybe not as worried about the legal aspect as I should have been). 
Now I expect all the young fishermen to have already learned what took me a number of years to learn, and I get frustrated when I observe them doing things that I used to do.
I wish I was better at sharing my knowledge with others, but so often I have the tendency to hoard it so I can catch more fish, then complain when kids fish differently


----------



## swampbuck

As long as his rig was legal, and he didn't have snagged fish in his possession, then I can't see how he was breaking the law.


----------



## shrek527

riverbob said:


> I disagree,what makes u think they don't know a shady technique when they see it, he was told earlier his technique was shaky, it sounds like he was pressing his luck (nikotan1 don't take offence it's my opinion n opinions r like Aholes we all got one) i've been outdooring it a long time i've seen good CO's n bad ones also i've got good tickets n bad tickets, got a tic tic once for attempting to process a white tailed deer with a club. once i broke the law n took it to court n the judge seen it my way n said u broke mans law but not gods law, he let me go no fine, now if i'm fishing n my technique causes me to start hooking more then one fish in one of the 3 b's (butt,belly or back) it's time to change my technique u should of changed yours, what u were doing is not fishing it's called hunting
> 
> The op never says he thinks his technique is shady. The officer did. The op was catching fish in the mouth and foul hooking fish as well. If hes not out there with snagging gear purposely ripping "spiders" and such and actually catching fish in the mouth. By your thinking no one should jig for walleye then either because we snag some fish occasionally, sometimes it's unavoidable. Fish take swipes at baits and miss all the time. You ever ice fish crystal clear water? I've seen numerous fish miss a perfectly still bait, imagine them trying to catch something in moving water? No fish can take a swipe and be successful 100% of the time at grabbing the bait / prey whatever there going after.


----------



## dead short

GuppyII said:


> Don't use a dropper fly, shorten your leader, put your sinker on a dropper not the mainline, or use a slinky, and don't 'set the hook' so often... That is near textbook flossing. try a spinner, crankbait, or run a float and beads or spawn/skein. Personally I don't think you have a chance in court, CO's and MSP get their overtime by showing up to court, to them its free money and they are going to be there. Just my $0.02


CO's get no overtime for court.


----------



## dead short

piscatorial warrior said:


> In 35 years of fishing I have received 3 tickets from Conservation Officers. I have taken all 3 to court. I have yet to pay a fine. Just because you are issued a ticket by a CO or other LEO isn't proof that you broke the law. ALWAYS keep the rule book in your car and bone up on the rules of the area you are fishing before you go.
> 
> Oh yeah, if you ever run into a CO named Mike Wells, ( He used to work Oscoda but I ran into him on the PM awhile back) He doesn't take any crap but he's a pretty straight up guy. If he writes you a ticket you probably deserve it.


You are probably right, Mike is a great guy.


----------



## riverbob

527 who r u ? touchy touchy,, first,, if u fish jigs a lot your going to hook a few fish in the wrong place it can't b helped isn't any thing wrong with it. 2nd u don't need snagging gear to snagg 3rd i have had n seen fish take a swipe at lures, in fact some of them caught a spear right behind the head ps get out from behind the bushes n tell us a little about you self,, have a good day n go gitum


----------



## dead short

swampbuck said:


> As long as his rig was legal, and he didn't have snagged fish in his possession, then I can't see how he was breaking the law.


If he was illegally fishing with legal gear, that is illegal. He will have an opportunity to go to court and explain what he was doing, and the CO will have an opportunity to go to court and explain what he saw him doing. A decision will be made by the court..


----------



## jr28schalm

Why fight it, just pay it... co's get there ot from court... lmfao


----------



## swampbuck

dead short said:


> If he was illegally fishing with legal gear, that is illegal. He will have an opportunity to go to court and explain what he was doing, and the CO will have an opportunity to go to court and explain what he saw him doing. A decision will be made by the court..


I only go once or twice a year, using spawn on, or casting lures. I would think it's legal to set the hook if you feel a tug.

Now obviously if someone is yanking and cranking, they are snagging. That's pretty easy to see.

But it sounds like there may be a gray area. 

Not trying to argue here, and not wanting to be put in the same position some day, what is it that you can't do ?


----------



## dead short

swampbuck said:


> I only go once or twice a year, using spawn on, or casting lures. I would think it's legal to set the hook if you feel a tug.
> 
> Now obviously if someone is yanking and cranking, they are snagging. That's pretty easy to see.
> 
> But it sounds like there may be a gray area.
> 
> Not trying to argue here, and not wanting to be put in the same position some day, what is it that you can't do ?


There is no list of methods.....there are subtle methods and then there are the obvious that we've all seen. Each situation is evaluated on the totality of circumstances. The officers in the county's that see an excessive amount of such activity work with their courts to express what in their opinion is "snagging" or "attempting to snag". It's based on watching 1000's of anglers fish over the years. 

Since it is not a specific intent crime, the officer does not have to know the particular mindset at that moment of the people fishing, only evaluate what he sees at that time and make a decision based on training and experience. 

Ultimately, it's still up to the prosecutor/court in each circumstance to make the final decision.


----------



## swampbuck

So a novice, who has no intent could potentially be ticketed and face incurred cost's whether they are guilty or not. That really doesn't sound like a fair system.


----------



## dead short

swampbuck said:


> So a novice, who has no intent could potentially be ticketed and face incurred cost's whether they are guilty or not. That really doesn't sound like a fair system.


I guess hypothetically it could, although their guilt would be determined in court. It could certainly happen if that novice fisherman received poor advice or pointers from other fishermen or learned simply by watching other fishermen do it incorrectly. Their explanation to the officer plays in to the totality of circumstance. There aren't any officers that are out just watching for a fisherman to make one mistake or one subtle twitch and then pounce and write a ticket.

And there is no overtime for court.


----------



## shrek527

riverbob said:


> 527 who r u ? touchy touchy,, first,, if u fish jigs a lot your going to hook a few fish in the wrong place it can't b helped isn't any thing wrong with it. 2nd u don't need snagging gear to snagg 3rd i have had n seen fish take a swipe at lures, in fact some of them caught a spear right behind the head ps get out from behind the bushes n tell us a little about you self,, have a good day n go gitum


Not touchy touchy. This is why I don't like to post much. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish when people are upset and/or angry and it gets people into these pissing matches over nothing. I know you don't need snagging gear to snag. This situation is such a gray area the co should have done more investigating. I feel like he ran in there guns ablazing because someone called the rap line on someone snagging salmon and when he got there and seen it wasn't what he was expecting, he wrote the op a ticket anyways. The co had no right to tell him he couldn't come back to a public waterway.


----------



## swampbuck

Who knows what really happened. But the cost of having to defend yourself in court and the expense, because somebody THINKS you were a breaking the law, without evidence, don't seem to fit the American justice system.

And if he wins, I doubt that the Officer or the MDNR is going to compensate him for expenses or lost work.


----------



## Trout King

swampbuck said:


> Who knows what really happened. But the cost of having to defend yourself in court and the expense, because somebody THINKS you were a breaking the law, without evidence, don't seem to fit the American justice system.
> 
> And if he wins, I doubt that the Officer or the MDNR is going to compensate him for expenses or lost work.


Money isn't an issue to him. He has stated it multple times. I am sure his dad will cover it.

If you are fishing a 2 fly rig and "setting the hook" to "avoid snags" or "getting a bite" while salmon fishing stale fish every couple drifts, you are probably snagging in the eyes of a CO or anyone else who has much experience. Or, it is possible that he is still that ignorant.


----------



## mrjimspeaks

Hilarious stuff right here. If you're foul hooking fish 50% of the time you've got to look at your tactics and be honest with yourself. OP knows the skein/float/hardware game and he decided to go with a 2 fly flossing rig...probably because fish weren't biting. I feel for the local guy who called the DNR. It's frustrating when there's a tough bite and someone waltz's in and starts flossing them in front of you. Not only is it ******** but the bites going to get even tougher with people flossing/snagging. 

Sometimes you have to suck it up and not catch fish or do some exploring and look for some that are more willing to bite. I was in the Charlevoix area this last weekend and only got 1. Could have easily switched to shadier tactics, and flossed a few easy peasy...I didn't though because I don't feel entitled to the fish and my conscience doesn't like those tactics.


----------



## tda513

mrjimspeaks said:


> Hilarious stuff right here. If you're foul hooking fish 50% of the time you've got to look at your tactics and be honest with yourself.


My thoughts exactly. If one CO told you to stop doing what you were doing, and you went back and did the same thing again, you really don't have any ground to stand on in my opinion.


----------



## riverbob

shrek527 said:


> Not touchy touchy. This is why I don't like to post much. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish when people are upset and/or angry and it gets people into these pissing matches over nothing. I know you don't need snagging gear to snag. This situation is such a gray area the co should have done more investigating. I feel like he ran in there guns ablazing because someone called the rap line on someone snagging salmon and when he got there and seen it wasn't what he was expecting, he wrote the op a ticket anyways. The co had no right to tell him he couldn't come back to a public waterway.


 u might b right, your intitled to your opinion just like any one else



mrjimspeaks said:


> Hilarious stuff right here. If you're foul hooking fish 50% of the time you've got to look at your tactics and be honest with yourself. OP knows the skein/float/hardware game and he decided to go with a 2 fly flossing rig...probably because fish weren't biting. I feel for the local guy who called the DNR. It's frustrating when there's a tough bite and someone waltz's in and starts flossing them in front of you. Not only is it ******** but the bites going to get even tougher with people flossing/snagging.
> 
> Sometimes you have to suck it up and not catch fish or do some exploring and look for some that are more willing to bite. I was in the Charlevoix area this last weekend and only got 1. Could have easily switched to shadier tactics, and flossed a few easy peasy...I didn't though because I don't feel entitled to the fish and my conscience doesn't like those tactics.


 X2 well said


----------



## 357Maximum

If you know you were doing right....fight it. If you have any doubt in your head of what you were doing, pay the man. Only YOU know what your true intentions were after all. Personally I think you are screwed.


----------



## Drisc13

I've gotten one ticket in 35 years of hunting/fishing for having an unloaded, uncased gun in a trunk. Fought it and was thrown out. Prosecuting attorney noted other problems with this CO.

There are bad eggs in every profession.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so more power than a cop may corrupt....

Biggest thing that bothered me is if the CO told him not to come back. That is a clear violation of the OP's rights...and illegal. 

Next time pull out the phone a d record it all.


----------



## Bowfin1

mrjimspeaks said:


> Hilarious stuff right here. If you're foul hooking fish 50% of the time you've got to look at your tactics and be honest with yourself. OP knows the skein/float/hardware game and he decided to go with a 2 fly flossing rig...probably because fish weren't biting. I feel for the local guy who called the DNR. It's frustrating when there's a tough bite and someone waltz's in and starts flossing them in front of you. Not only is it ******** but the bites going to get even tougher with people flossing/snagging.
> 
> Sometimes you have to suck it up and not catch fish or do some exploring and look for some that are more willing to bite. I was in the Charlevoix area this last weekend and only got 1. Could have easily switched to shadier tactics, and flossed a few easy peasy...I didn't though because I don't feel entitled to the fish and my conscience doesn't like those tactics.


Well said! 
I'd rather not catch fish than bottom bounce a 2 fly rig. I fish for the bite. I don't want to hook fish if there is doubt about how I am hooking them. It's fishing, not catching. I get mad too when I'm trying to get fish to bite, and some dude shows up and starts raking the hole with a 2 fly rig. When this happens, the bite gets a lot tougher. I know the old 2 fly rig is technically legal, but I won't ever use it again.


----------



## wdf73

tda513 said:


> My thoughts exactly. If one CO told you to stop doing what you were doing, and you went back and did the same thing again, you really don't have any ground to stand on in my opinion.


Sir, you are 100 percent wrong on this one.
A CO does not have the responsibility to make or change laws, and not really to even interpret law. His job was to enforce existing laws, not write new ones.
If you were fishing walleye with a rapala and a CO told you what you were doing was illegal, would you agree he could write you a ticket? 
If the CO told the OP that he needed to stop what he was doing, yet could not point him to any law which he was breaking, then the CO was overstepping his authority. And to tell him he couldn't fish a public spot was a definite case of overstepping authority. 
The thing that is troubling to me is that most of the posters who agree with the ticket seem to be doing so because they disagree with the OPs techniques rather than because they think what he did was illegal. 
Of course it us frustrating to see someone come in with a two fly rig and catch fish you couldn't catch. O bet it is just as frustrating for those who are using a two fly rig when someone comes in with a bobber and proceeds to fish circles around them, yet I have heard numerous ones on this forum gloat over doing just that.
To say that because someone knows how to bobber fish, he shouldn't try other methods is one of the most insolent statements I have heard.
I may take issue with people baiting deer, and may get very frustrated when a neighbor shoots the big buck I have been hunting all season, over a bait pile, but that doesn't mean he was doing anything illegal as long as he followed existing baiting laws.
The issue is not and has never been whether a teenage boy was using the best possible method to fish on the situation, but rather whether he was using an illegal method. From what I have heard so far, he was legal.


----------



## wdf73

The thing that is easy to forget in these situations is that legality is not determined by what the law was 70 years ago, what the law may be 6 months from now, what I think the law should be, or what a CO thinks the law is or should be. The only thing that counts us what the law is at the current time.
If you don't like someone else's legal method of fishing, you can do what seems to be popular in recent years : Get a petition written up and take it to the big cities, where most people have no idea what you are talking about, but are willing to sign anyway. Form an organization with a catchy name, hire some lobbyists and get the law changed so everyone else has to abide by your opinion.


----------



## AdamBradley

Ill be probably considered abrasive, hopefully wont get this locked, but here is my answer for his question of if he was in the wrong.... Like other threads where he has asked questions, he probably won't like the answer. Im truthfully trying to educate however.

As for the hole you were fishing, I've fished it numerous times (no I was not who called, haven't fished there in a couple of years). Deep and slow is perfect bobber water, it is very imperfect bounce water. I have bobbed dozens of this out of that hole.

Attempting to take fish in a manner that the fish does not take the hook voluntarily in its mouth. This is the snagging definition from the guide.

Guys using 5 foot two fly rigs yes, are legal. These rigs get co attention to monitor the anglers behavior and how he utilized this rig. He self admittingly was "whipping his rod tip" to supposedly avoid snagging up. To me, as an experienced angler, he is attempting to floss the fish at the end of the drift. A flossed fish is not a voluntary biter, and is a snagged, or attempted to be snagged fish.

He is new to the river game, many of us are not. He was attempting to floss, and likely didn't realize it. and was ticketed for flossing. He may not realize it, but the percentage of foul hooked fish tried to educate him, the first co tried to educate him, and he has come on here asking for answers to be educated. Deep slow pools scream "I should float this" to an experienced angler, or maybe plunk it in some areas. Deep slow pools piled with oxygen deprived fish screams "come floss or snag" to the less ethical, or less experienced.

Remember there are two sides to every story. A detail was left out about when he did "whip his rod out to avoid getting snagged(?)", How many of those whips resulted in a fish? I suspect a number of them.

Again, not trying to March with a torch here but I do feel bad for you getting a flossing ticket, since it doesn't even sound like you knew you were flossing - or this is your cover up story to rationalize that you shouldn't be ticketed for flossing. I hope you honestly didn't realize what you were doing. If you did know exactly what you were doing, I am personally happy to hear the cos are writing tickets for this snagging method.

It will be tough to fight it in court, but with 5 foot leads, multiple snagged fish, a warning the day prior, I hate to say it but your ticket will likely hold. I just hope it is a learning experience.


----------



## Trout King

AdamBradley said:


> Ill be probably considered abrasive, hopefully wont get this locked, but here is my answer for his question of if he was in the wrong.... Like other threads where he has asked questions, he probably won't like the answer. Im truthfully trying to educate however.
> 
> As for the hole you were fishing, I've fished it numerous times (no I was not who called, haven't fished there in a couple of years). Deep and slow is perfect bobber water, it is very imperfect bounce water. I have bobbed dozens of this out of that hole.
> 
> Attempting to take fish in a manner that the fish does not take the hook voluntarily in its mouth. This is the snagging definition from the guide.
> 
> Guys using 5 foot two fly rigs yes, are legal. These rigs get co attention to monitor the anglers behavior and how he utilized this rig. He self admittingly was "whipping his rod tip" to supposedly avoid snagging up. To me, as an experienced angler, he is attempting to floss the fish at the end of the drift. A flossed fish is not a voluntary biter, and is a snagged, or attempted to be snagged fish.
> 
> He is new to the river game, many of us are not. He was attempting to floss, and likely didn't realize it. and was ticketed for flossing. He may not realize it, but the percentage of foul hooked fish tried to educate him, the first co tried to educate him, and he has come on here asking for answers to be educated. Deep slow pools scream "I should float this" to an experienced angler, or maybe plunk it in some areas. Deep slow pools piled with oxygen deprived fish screams "come floss or snag" to the less ethical, or less experienced.
> 
> Remember there are two sides to every story. A detail was left out about when he did "whip his rod out to avoid getting snagged(?)", How many of those whips resulted in a fish? I suspect a number of them.
> 
> Again, not trying to March with a torch here but I do feel bad for you getting a flossing ticket, since it doesn't even sound like you knew you were flossing - or this is your cover up story to rationalize that you shouldn't be ticketed for flossing. I hope you honestly didn't realize what you were doing. If you did know exactly what you were doing, I am personally happy to hear the cos are writing tickets for this snagging method.
> 
> It will be tough to fight it in court, but with 5 foot leads, multiple snagged fish, a warning the day prior, I hate to say it but your ticket will likely hold. I just hope it is a learning experience.


Truth bomb.


----------



## swampbuck

AdamBradley said:


> Ill be probably considered abrasive, hopefully wont get this locked, but here is my answer for his question of if he was in the wrong.... Like other threads where he has asked questions, he probably won't like the answer. Im truthfully trying to educate however.
> 
> As for the hole you were fishing, I've fished it numerous times (no I was not who called, haven't fished there in a couple of years). Deep and slow is perfect bobber water, it is very imperfect bounce water. I have bobbed dozens of this out of that hole.
> 
> Attempting to take fish in a manner that the fish does not take the hook voluntarily in its mouth. This is the snagging definition from the guide.
> 
> Guys using 5 foot two fly rigs yes, are legal. These rigs get co attention to monitor the anglers behavior and how he utilized this rig. He self admittingly was "whipping his rod tip" to supposedly avoid snagging up. To me, as an experienced angler, he is attempting to floss the fish at the end of the drift. A flossed fish is not a voluntary biter, and is a snagged, or attempted to be snagged fish.
> 
> He is new to the river game, many of us are not. He was attempting to floss, and likely didn't realize it. and was ticketed for flossing. He may not realize it, but the percentage of foul hooked fish tried to educate him, the first co tried to educate him, and he has come on here asking for answers to be educated. Deep slow pools scream "I should float this" to an experienced angler, or maybe plunk it in some areas. Deep slow pools piled with oxygen deprived fish screams "come floss or snag" to the less ethical, or less experienced.
> 
> Remember there are two sides to every story. A detail was left out about when he did "whip his rod out to avoid getting snagged(?)", How many of those whips resulted in a fish? I suspect a number of them.
> 
> Again, not trying to March with a torch here but I do feel bad for you getting a flossing ticket, since it doesn't even sound like you knew you were flossing - or this is your cover up story to rationalize that you shouldn't be ticketed for flossing. I hope you honestly didn't realize what you were doing. If you did know exactly what you were doing, I am personally happy to hear the cos are writing tickets for this snagging method.
> 
> It will be tough to fight it in court, but with 5 foot leads, multiple snagged fish, a warning the day prior, I hate to say it but your ticket will likely hold. I just hope it is a learning experience.


I pretty much agree, but did he know is the question. I have never done it, never really seen it and knew what was going on. I always search out a spot with nobody around, hate combat fishing. 

But if I was to see someone doing what he described doing, I would think he was trying to impart action to his bait...jigging basically. I have seen fly guys do that with streamers while trout fishing.

The law needs to be clarified, not left up to interpretation. Hell, if I am drifting a sack and it stops, or the rod tip bounces, I am going to set the hook. Sounds like I could get in trouble for that.


----------



## ausable_steelhead

wdf73 said:


> Sir, you are 100 percent wrong on this one.
> A CO does not have the responsibility to make or change laws, and not really to even interpret law. His job was to enforce existing laws, not write new ones.
> If you were fishing walleye with a rapala and a CO told you what you were doing was illegal, would you agree he could write you a ticket?
> If the CO told the OP that he needed to stop what he was doing, yet could not point him to any law which he was breaking, then the CO was overstepping his authority. And to tell him he couldn't fish a public spot was a definite case of overstepping authority.
> The thing that is troubling to me is that most of the posters who agree with the ticket seem to be doing so because they disagree with the OPs techniques rather than because they think what he did was illegal.
> Of course it us frustrating to see someone come in with a two fly rig and catch fish you couldn't catch. O bet it is just as frustrating for those who are using a two fly rig when someone comes in with a bobber and proceeds to fish circles around them, yet I have heard numerous ones on this forum gloat over doing just that.
> To say that because someone knows how to bobber fish, he shouldn't try other methods is one of the most insolent statements I have heard.
> I may take issue with people baiting deer, and may get very frustrated when a neighbor shoots the big buck I have been hunting all season, over a bait pile, but that doesn't mean he was doing anything illegal as long as he followed existing baiting laws.
> The issue is not and has never been whether a teenage boy was using the best possible method to fish on the situation, but rather whether he was using an illegal method. From what I have heard so far, he was legal.


He was legal in rigging. However, anyone with experience knows that a 5-6' leader, with tandem flies bounced threw podded salmon has a high likelihood of fouling and/or lining them; whether they know it or not. 

When they're already in low, warmer water, then we get a heat wave like we have; the liklihood of them biting is low. Sounds like he was setting the hook too much, with a setup the co's are quite familiar with.


----------



## 357Maximum

From a distance I bet a C.O would have a coronary if they ever saw the way I am constantly twitching my rod tip with marabou jigs in slow runs, outside bends and frogwater. I would be willing to bet I foul hook less fish doing that then the guy running a bobber through the same water. I do make sure my twitching jigs have a slightly turned down hook point though. If a C.O tried giving me a ticket for my epileptic rod twitching, you can bet your tookiss I would fight it. I am doing nothing wrong and there is no intent despite what it may look like by those that only know one or two ways to get a salmon to bite.


----------



## tda513

wdf73 said:


> Sir, you are 100 percent wrong on this one.
> A CO does not have the responsibility to make or change laws, and not really to even interpret law. His job was to enforce existing laws, not write new ones.
> If you were fishing walleye with a rapala and a CO told you what you were doing was illegal, would you agree he could write you a ticket?
> If the CO told the OP that he needed to stop what he was doing, yet could not point him to any law which he was breaking, then the CO was overstepping his authority. And to tell him he couldn't fish a public spot was a definite case of overstepping authority.
> The thing that is troubling to me is that most of the posters who agree with the ticket seem to be doing so because they disagree with the OPs techniques rather than because they think what he did was illegal.
> Of course it us frustrating to see someone come in with a two fly rig and catch fish you couldn't catch. O bet it is just as frustrating for those who are using a two fly rig when someone comes in with a bobber and proceeds to fish circles around them, yet I have heard numerous ones on this forum gloat over doing just that.
> To say that because someone knows how to bobber fish, he shouldn't try other methods is one of the most insolent statements I have heard.
> I may take issue with people baiting deer, and may get very frustrated when a neighbor shoots the big buck I have been hunting all season, over a bait pile, but that doesn't mean he was doing anything illegal as long as he followed existing baiting laws.
> The issue is not and has never been whether a teenage boy was using the best possible method to fish on the situation, but rather whether he was using an illegal method. From what I have heard so far, he was legal.


Well, I'm assuming if someone called the DNR on him, and multiple officers confronted him, that what he was doing was not 100% legal (whether he was doing it intentionally or not). He wouldn't get confronted multiple times if he wasn't. Remember, we are hearing the story from the person at fault, and not an impartial source.


----------



## Trout King

357Maximum said:


> From a distance I bet a C.O would have a coronary if they ever saw the way I am constantly twitching my rod tip with marabou jigs in slow runs, outside bends and frogwater. I would be willing to bet I foul hook less fish doing that then the guy running a bobber through the same water. I do make sure my twitching jigs have a slightly turned down hook point though. If a C.O tried giving me a ticket for my epileptic rod twitching, you can bet your tookiss I would fight it. I am doing nothing wrong and there is no intent despite what it may look like by those that only know one or two ways to get a salmon to bite.


Whatever snagger....  lol


----------



## AdamBradley

Right, he may not have known, but we all know how the claim of ignorance holds up in court. In this case though, ignorance may be the best "out" of "attempting", I guess breaking it down, you would have to know this rig flosses, and know you are flossing, admit you are flossing, to be fitting of the definition of "attempting".

Oh trust me, if I am bouncing, I do set the hook when something feels potentially fishy. It however is not as described as "whipping at the end of the drift to 'avoid getting snagged'". It's rather a slight lift, and if it doesn't continue bouncing along, it is a hookset (usually into a log with my luck haha!)

I agree with clarification of the law. I would love to see something to address flossing and behavior more definitively.


----------



## swampbuck

That would be my defense. Show me the law that says my method was illegal. And if he released foul hooked fish, his defense is even stronger.


----------



## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> Whatever snagger....  lol


If you happen to catch any coho jacks in that one hole below that one bridge look into their throats. One of them still has a pink and white marabou jig in it's gullet. It was far enough in that I just cut the line cause I knew pulling the jig would kill it. Yep I "snagged" him hard.


----------



## AdamBradley

Oh yeah, twitching jigs isn't too common, but I'm sure it isn't a full out hookset with each twitch.... I have used them a few times with success on coho, but no other species personally. Gotta give it a try more often for steel and kings.


----------



## wdf73

Adam, if he was flossing without realizing it, then he wasn't 'attempting to foul hook a fish', so still wasn't breaking the law.
I agree with swampbuck. The law is far too vague. In fact, I would question it's constitutionality, since it requires an officer to determine a person's intent, which is impossible to do a lot of the time


----------



## Fishndude

Show of hands: Who has fished with a 2-spawnbag rig?


----------



## wyandot

wdf73 said:


> Adam, if he was flossing without realizing it, then he wasn't 'attempting to foul hook a fish', so still wasn't breaking the law.
> I agree with swampbuck. The law is far too vague. In fact, I would question it's constitutionality, since it requires an officer to determine a person's intent, which is impossible to do a lot of the time


No clue what the O.P.'s intentions were with his methods, but, there's no chance in hell I'd just pay a ticket from ANY law enforcement officer without fighting it if i believe I was wrongfully accused.


----------



## 357Maximum

AdamBradley said:


> Oh yeah, twitching jigs isn't too common, but I'm sure it isn't a full out hookset with each twitch.... I have used them a few times with success on coho, but no other species personally. Gotta give it a try more often for steel and kings.



If I feel a tick or anything out of the ordinary or the line goes slack I hit it like a bite, but you are correct it is called twitching and not jerking for a reason. All three species will hit a twitched jig, only had one king utterly slam the jig thus far, but coho simply love em if the water is cool enough and is a main tactic on most years. This year not so much as the water is too warm I think. A lot of the time I think it is a reactionary strike and not a feeding strike kinda like a king/steel getting pissed and slamming a plug. Sometimes it is a feeding strike though (especially with steel) I am sure. There is no way that little coho jack was just reacting the other day....it ATE IT.


----------



## dead short

Not a specific intent crime. No need to determine the intent, only articulate the actions.


----------



## Petronius

jr28schalm said:


> Why fight it, just pay it... co's get there ot from court... lmfao


See post #53.


----------



## jr28schalm

petronius said:


> See post #53.


i seen it, thats why i made that


----------



## Petronius

jr28schalm said:


> i seen it, thats why i made that


Co's don't get ot from court. deadshort said so.


----------



## jim222lansing

I like A B 's ANSWER
I do not agree w/ all but it was a well thought out answer and served to educate me as well.
I was going up north to the PM this week and maybe the way I fish salmon might be illegal
I fish a single fly on a 4-5 ft. leader w/ a tri swivel that has a short piece of 10 lb line with a few split shot on it to get it down to the rocks in fast current.
I have IN THE PAST set the sinkers to be at 4-6 inches off bottom...... is this flossing..... I never intended to snag, but ignorance is no excuse I am told.
I like the guy asking the original question will raise my rod when catching rocks or sticks
to release it but not in a hook setting manner. I have not had any significant percent of snags. may be one in twenty mouth hooks but I always thought it a product of casting into a group of fish.

a simple yes or no please


----------



## Whitetail_hunter

Yea your flossing, assuming we are talking kings. No big deal go have fun and don't keep any fouled fish. Flossing and snagging are worlds apart, that's why a lot of people confuse good flossermen with good fisherman.


----------



## danthebuilder

This kid is a known poacher. He should have been banned from here.

https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/...w-bait-shops-with-skein-near-pm-river.596616/

Make sure you read post #15 in that thread with his response.

Any of you guys still want to defend this kid?


----------



## rdm429

danthebuilder said:


> This kid is a known poacher. He should have been banned from here.
> 
> https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/...w-bait-shops-with-skein-near-pm-river.596616/
> 
> Make sure you read post #15 in that thread with his response.
> 
> Any of you guys still want to defend this kid?


He seems to have disappeared, must not like the responses..


----------



## wdf73

Huge difference between a kid learning the ropes and a dyed in the wool poacher IMO.
Did you ever break a law when you were younger?


----------



## wdf73

338bar said:


> A friend of mine has this problem. I need to give him most of the space in my truck for his stuff when we leave in the morning. He bought one of those headlamp lights to free up his hands when going to and from his stand. He also figured out a way to connect a couple of backpacks together. Just hope he never falls on back as he would never be able to get back up.


I'm going with no. Your rig is legal. Will you foul hook some fish? Yes, but you will with every other method as well. Unless you are intentionally trying to snag, you are legal.
Unfortunately, we often learn a method of fishing that works for us, then close our mind to the idea that any other method is valid.
About a week ago, I caught probably my biggest salmon ever on a fly rod with a two fly rig. I will post a picture and you can see the fly inside her mouth. I have witnessed fish come after an egg fly snapping at it, so they will take them when conditions are right.
I also caught a lot of trout behind the salmon on the same rig.


----------



## swampbuck

dead short said:


> Not a specific intent crime. No need to determine the intent, only articulate the actions.


If the actions can be articulated, then maybe the MDNR can do so in the fishing guide. So that it is clear. Then there is no question.


----------



## dead short

swampbuck said:


> If the actions can be articulated, then maybe the MDNR can do so in the fishing guide. So that it is clear. Then there is no question.


I'm pretty sure you'll never see an all inclusive list as to what actions are or can be considered snagging in the rule book. It would be impossible. I had a professor in college that when he asked you what the definition of something was, unless it was a finite answer, it always had to start out with "the art and science of".....just too many variables to include every one. 

It's like every other "what if" question. After it's answered the next question is almost always...ok, but what if......


----------



## Capt.Bob

If you were fishing as you state,, take it to court, lotta limp wristed fisherman here that think you should alter your legal rig,,, I say tell em to @$#! OFF, if they don't like it,, change the law! Michigan DNR are notorious for thinking they are God, especially with out of state fisherman!

I din't care what others think, I wont fish like I'm afraid to set a hook on anything I feel, and I have made drifts many times that end at snagg and know I have to lift agressively and crank hard to get out and not loose my rigg!

As for sticking your tail between your leggs and letting idiots have fishing holes or hunting spots to themselves,,, we can thank so many of these limp wristed sportsman for encouraging the idiots that make it combat fishing or hunting,,, If they had the guts to stand up for what is right there would be fewer idiots, but they just add to them,,, kinda like the gutless Americans that will continue to watch the NFL after their disrespect for the National Anthem,,, I wont support them either.

I will fish and follow all laws the state set's, but once I do, to hell with anyone who doesn't like it, and if others want to share water with me, fine but when I am already fishing any hole or spot, I will not leave or change because someone else thinks they have more right to it than me,, resident or not they are different than I am! Fact

Good luck at court,, then get their names and make a complaint,, I will,, next time sew em for their job,, I don't want the money,, but if they play games the way you said,, they should not be in the position they are in,, they need to back our rights and remember,, we all pay their wages, they need to learn to assist us not arrest us when we abide by the law!


----------



## danthebuilder

Kid starts a thread trying to buy spawn from members. Gets told its illegal and this is his response.



Nikotav1 said:


> *I guess they can give me a ticket I'll be happy to pay it as long as I get some skein at the end of it*


This is who you guys are defending.

I am going to guess if the DNR came in here and said their side of the story it wouldn't be anywhere near the same.


----------



## dead short

This is why every once in a while you just gotta quit visiting the site for a few months.....


----------



## Nikotav1

danthebuilder said:


> Kid starts a thread trying to buy spawn from members. Gets told its illegal and this is his response.
> 
> 
> 
> This is who you guys are defending.
> 
> I am going to guess if the DNR came in here and said their side of the story it wouldn't be anywhere near the same.


Like I said that was a joke, read the whole post


----------

