# Wolf Killings



## Whitetail1 (Oct 17, 2008)

*FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE*
*Feb. 23, 2011*

*Contacts: Lt. Skip Hagy 906-293-5131 or Debbie Munson Badini 906-226-1352*


*Bay City** Man Pleads Guilty to Killing Three Wolves in Upper Peninsula*

A Bay City man has pled guilty to charges of illegally killing three wolves in Mackinac County in January. William Hayward, 58, also pled guilty to malicious destruction of property for destroying two tracking collars that had been placed on the wolves by the Department of Natural Resources and Environment.

Hayward was sentenced on Monday, Feb. 14, in 92nd District Court in St. Ignace to 365 days in jail, with 90 days to be served immediately and the remaining time suspended if all terms of his 24-month probation are met. Additionally, Hayward was ordered to pay $3,000 in restitution for the wolves, $590 for the replacement of the tracking collars and $1,500 in fines and court costs. Hayward's hunting privileges were also revoked for a period of three years, and the rifle he used to kill the wolves was condemned.

DNRE conservation officers conducted the investigation after locating three dead wolves in northwestern Mackinac County in January that had died from gunshot wounds. Hayward was developed as the suspect, and Mackinac County Prosector Alfred Feleppa reviewed the case and issued the charges against Hayward.

Hayward also faced possible federal charges from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service; however an agreement was reached with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that federal charges for these three illegal wolf kills would not be brought if Hayward resolved the matter in state court. Wolves are federally protected under the Endangered Species Act and a person may be charged in both state and federal court for illegally killing wolves. 

Hmmm....I have a feeling this is just the begining of the wolf killings. I know if I had to live with them in my back yard (i have kids) I would be tempted to whack-em at will.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

In the last two months one was killed in Cheboygan Co and one was killed in Luce Co plus the three that I knew nothing about make 5 wolves illegally killed in the last two months. Just wondering if there are some more out there. I guess some people have cabin fever or wolf hater fever. Just goes to show that the Law Enforcement division is out there working hard. So far the other two cases have not been solved yet as far as I know. Still one out of three is not too bad as evidence can be lost in a hurry.


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## Get Out (Dec 29, 2010)

Whitetail1 said:


> Hmmm....I have a feeling this is just the begining of the wolf killings. I know if I had to live with them in my back yard (i have kids) I would be tempted to whack-em at will.


 I live in wolf country and the locals have been "whacking" them for a while now. I have yet to see one. I think it would be cool. but I would rather see more deer and less wolves. I hope we get to hunt them legally some day soon! One would make an awesome rug or mount!


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## HUBBHUNTER (Aug 8, 2007)

This is not the beginning it has been going on since they were first introduced. The justice system regarding fines and penelties or illegally killing wild animals is complete bull **** IMO. :rant:

Poaching deer, a resource that brings in Millions if not more to the state of Michigan will get you a slap on the wrist, if the CO's even attempt to investigate a claim. Mean while the wolf that has had nothing but a negitive impact on the state and its resourses will get you 90 days in jail, plus thousands in fines for killing two. W T F? People who poach deer should get the same punishment if not more than killing a wolf. The only reason people are doing this is becuase the feds have made it impossible to manage them and keep them at a reasonable and their own pre determined levels. 

This is a crock of **** and the feds and state should be hung to dry over the wolf issue.


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## Spartan88 (Nov 14, 2008)

This is a no win situation thanks to the federal courts.


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## Rudi's Dad (May 4, 2004)

HUBBHUNTER said:


> This is not the beginning it has been going on since they were first introduced. The justice system regarding fines and penelties or illegally killing wild animals is complete bull **** IMO. :rant:
> 
> Poaching deer, a resource that brings in Millions if not more to the state of Michigan will get you a slap on the wrist, if the CO's even attempt to investigate a claim. Mean while the wolf that has had nothing but a negitive impact on the state and its resourses will get you 90 days in jail, plus thousands in fines for killing two. W T F? People who poach deer should get the same punishment if not more than killing a wolf. The only reason people are doing this is becuase the feds have made it impossible to manage them and keep them at a reasonable and their own pre determined levels.
> 
> ...


Yep, poach any bird or animal and the fine should be the same. To me a grouse is more important than a frickin wolf.


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## duxdog (Apr 13, 2008)

You just need to be smart as to the way you go about things.:coolgleam


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## sbooy42 (Mar 6, 2007)

duxdog said:


> You just need to be smart as to the way you go about things.:coolgleam


 ding ding!!!!


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## Beaverhunter2 (Jan 22, 2005)

Killing wolves (and poaching deer and grouse) are crimes and should be prosecuted and punished to the extent of the law. That being said, the pressure people are putting on wolves in the areas where they live is a strong indication of the need to develop effective management plans.

It's interesting that in the parts of Africa where guided safaris bring much needed cash and jobs, poaching is almost non-existent. In the areas where the game is "protected" the poachers are wiping it out. Leopards and elephants were once endangered species. Now in many areas they are overpopulated and hunted extensively. The people no longer view the game as a nuisance and a threat- it's an economic opportunity!

Here's a link to post that can get you in touch with an organization working to get wolves removed from the Federal Endangered Species List. 

http://www.mtpca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=388

This is the United States of America. If you don't like the law- change it!

JMO

John


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## buck11pt24 (Mar 11, 2007)

Before I get bashed here, I do not agree with him killing the wolves illegally. What I think is an idea to get attention on the issue is to start a website funded by donations to pay the bonds, fines, court costs and so on of anyone who gets caught killing a wolf. If people were to donate money towards the cause, it might get a quicker reactions from the Feds/State or whomever. I see it as a win win. Either they make it so that we can manage them, or make the fines even higher so that people won't do it. I once heard an Ol Timer Say "I'll shoot every damn wolf I see out there, bring it home, tan it, and then mount it. If I get caught it was still cheaper than going to Canada!" I don't have to worry about him b/c he is no longer around, but I think he has a good point. The punishment doesn't really fit the crime.

Again I don't agree with this guy doing what he did, but that was something that I had pop in my head. It could also backfire too, by people seeing that sportsman are all about doing illegal things, and we are NOT.


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## HUBBHUNTER (Aug 8, 2007)

Yeah buck your last sentence kind of says it all.

We need a wolf management plan and we need it now.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

*The other Chippewa county wolf shooting case?*


> DNRE Requesting Information in Chippewa County Wolf Poaching Case
> Contact: Lt. Skip Hagy, 906-293-5131 or Debbie Munson Badini, 906-226-1352
> Agency: Natural Resources and Environment
> 
> ...


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## roger carv (Dec 7, 2004)

HUBBHUNTER said:


> Yeah buck your last sentence kind of says it all.
> 
> We need a wolf management plan and we need it now.


 sounds like a good fit to me


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## doogie mac (Oct 24, 2010)

Hmmm.Didnt know about that one! Someone earlier mentioned cabin fever-I had wondered this as well. Believe me,Im not endorsing poaching by saying this but, its that time of the year.Just watch the news!
Plus,right now things are easy pickins for somebody to poach right now.We hardly have any snow and what we do have is hard packed so critters are getting around ok. (not speaking for you guys down in the southern snowbelts:lol
As I said,im not endorsing poaching. Management has got to happen!


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

duxdog said:


> You just need to be smart as to the way you go about things.:coolgleam


Of course posts like this shows that many are not real smart to begin with but sure says a lot about the person.:evilsmile


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## da Appleknocker (Jan 26, 2009)

Hubb, Michigan already has a wolf management plan, it can be found on the DNR website. The problem is the anti's have gone to federal court and had the wolf relisted as an endangered species and it taskes time and money to fight them. MDNR's hands are tied. But, I wonder why Michigan doesn't do what Idaho is doing. Their DNR refuses to get involved in ANY wolf management issues. They leave it up to the Feds. Therefore it cost the hunters nothing. Nothing for investigations, nothing for arrest and nothing for prosecutions. It should be saving them millions. I wonder if Michigans DNR has the kahunnas to stand up to the Feds. :lol:


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

I'm sure the two tirds above who hinted that the guy didn't "hide the evidence" well enough have a lot of experience at poaching. 

Great representation of sportsmen. 

Big talk.


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

buck11pt24 said:


> Before I get bashed here, I do not agree with him killing the wolves illegally. What I think is an idea to get attention on the issue is to start a website funded by donations to pay the bonds, fines, court costs and so on of anyone who gets caught killing a wolf. If people were to donate money towards the cause, it might get a quicker reactions from the Feds/State or whomever. I see it as a win win. Either they make it so that we can manage them, or make the fines even higher so that people won't do it. I once heard an Ol Timer Say "I'll shoot every damn wolf I see out there, bring it home, tan it, and then mount it. If I get caught it was still cheaper than going to Canada!" I don't have to worry about him b/c he is no longer around, but I think he has a good point. The punishment doesn't really fit the crime.
> 
> Again I don't agree with this guy doing what he did, but that was something that I had pop in my head. It could also backfire too, by people seeing that sportsman are all about doing illegal things, and we are NOT.


I would be more inclined to donate to a fund that would contribute more funds to the investigation and prosecution of poachers. IMO, the punishment in all poaching cases doesn't fit the crime.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Boy I have seen a lot of strange posts on here before but these take the cake if you will. People defending poachers even wanting to set up legal defense funds to support thieir habit of poaching herein our own state. How would you feel if a guy spotlighted your front yard, shot and killed a booner at night and then some "sportsmens group" paid his bail, fines and any other legal fees so lost nothing but hunting for 3 years?????? Hell buy him a new gun too while you're at it cause he loses that too. Something has to be addressed with the wolf population here I think we all agree on that point but condoning the killing of a protected species is wrong. Whats the difference and where is the line drawn? Do we shoot all the bald eagles we see cause they are taking fish, fawns, and game birds as well????? Nature is cruel and animals in nature need to eat to survive. If you want fewer wolves then work in a positive manner to get the laws changed and the management can begin. But if you want to go all vigilante game manager then face the facts when you are arrested charged and incarcerated for the crimes you commit. The outside looking in sees us as hunters, fishermen and trappers. From the inside it doesnt resemble "sportsmen" at all sometimes. Sorry for the rant.

Ganzer


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

MERGANZER said:


> Boy I have seen a lot of strange posts on here before but these take the cake if you will. People defending poachers even wanting to set up legal defense funds to support thieir habit of poaching herein our own state. How would you feel if a guy spotlighted your front yard, shot and killed a booner at night and then some "sportsmens group" paid his bail, fines and any other legal fees so lost nothing but hunting for 3 years?????? Hell buy him a new gun too while you're at it cause he loses that too. Something has to be addressed with the wolf population here I think we all agree on that point but condoning the killing of a protected species is wrong. Whats the difference and where is the line drawn? Do we shoot all the bald eagles we see cause they are taking fish, fawns, and game birds as well????? Nature is cruel and animals in nature need to eat to survive. If you want fewer wolves then work in a positive manner to get the laws changed and the management can begin. But if you want to go all vigilante game manager then face the facts when you are arrested charged and incarcerated for the crimes you commit. The outside looking in sees us as hunters, fishermen and trappers. From the inside it doesnt resemble "sportsmen" at all sometimes. Sorry for the rant.
> 
> Ganzer


Don't be sorry. You're right on. Very well put. 

If you're going to be one of the low lifes that take pride in illegal killings, don't post it on the internet for opposition groups to use as ammo. You're no smarter than the idiot who got caught.


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## stagliano (Nov 10, 2006)

augustus0603 said:


> Don't be sorry. You're right on. Very well put.
> 
> If you're going to be one of the low lifes that take pride in illegal killings, don't post it on the internet for opposition groups to use as ammo. You're no smarter than the idiot who got caught.


Agreed. You do not need to apologize GANZER. You either obey the law or you don't. There is no grey area. If you do not, you are a criminal.


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## UPHuntr (Feb 24, 2009)

da Appleknocker said:


> But, I wonder why Michigan doesn't do what Idaho is doing. Their DNR refuses to get involved in ANY wolf management issues. They leave it up to the Feds. Therefore it cost the hunters nothing. Nothing for investigations, nothing for arrest and nothing for prosecutions. It should be saving them millions. I wonder if Michigans DNR has the kahunnas to stand up to the Feds. :lol:


I agree with this 100% if the feds are the ones holding this up our DNR should not have one officer working on wolf related issues. The money can be better spent other places. Let the feds deal with their own mess. I love what Idaho did.
On a side note I was talking to one of the bartenders when we were up snowmobiling last month and made the comment we really need to be able to control the wolf population up here, and his answer I quote,"they are being delt with" so I believe there are more wolves shot then we know about.


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## captjimtc (Aug 10, 2005)

Get Out said:


> *I live in wolf country and the locals have been "whacking" them for a while now.* I have yet to see one. I think it would be cool. but I would rather see more deer and less wolves. I hope we get to hunt them legally some day soon! One would make an awesome rug or mount!



It's the same where I hunt in the west end of the UP. I hunted everyday during rifle season dawn to dusk never even seen a track and nothing on trailcams like previous years. Locals still talking about fire and forget gut shots. They're getting thinned out like it or not. They better get on a management plan or the whackfest is only going to get worse and they'll have nothing left to manage.


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## i missed again (Sep 7, 2008)

MERGANZER said:


> Boy I have seen a lot of strange posts on here before but these take the cake if you will. People defending poachers even wanting to set up legal defense funds to support thieir habit of poaching herein our own state. How would you feel if a guy spotlighted your front yard, shot and killed a booner at night and then some "sportsmens group" paid his bail, fines and any other legal fees so lost nothing but hunting for 3 years?????? Hell buy him a new gun too while you're at it cause he loses that too. Something has to be addressed with the wolf population here I think we all agree on that point but condoning the killing of a protected species is wrong. Whats the difference and where is the line drawn? Do we shoot all the bald eagles we see cause they are taking fish, fawns, and game birds as well????? Nature is cruel and animals in nature need to eat to survive. If you want fewer wolves then work in a positive manner to get the laws changed and the management can begin. But if you want to go all vigilante game manager then face the facts when you are arrested charged and incarcerated for the crimes you commit. The outside looking in sees us as hunters, fishermen and trappers. From the inside it doesnt resemble "sportsmen" at all sometimes. Sorry for the rant.
> 
> Ganzer


dead on I agree 100 % Im willing to bet if you are willing to poach a wolf you probably have no problem poaching a deer or maybe an extra bird or two poaching is poaching


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

Hayward was sentenced on Monday, Feb. 14, in 92nd District Court in St. Ignace to 365 days in jail, with 90 days to be served immediately and the remaining time suspended if all terms of his 24-month probation are met. Additionally, Hayward was ordered to pay $3,000 in restitution for the wolves, $590 for the replacement of the tracking collars and $1,500 in fines and court costs. Hayward's hunting privileges were also revoked for a period of three years, and the rifle he used to kill the wolves was condemned.

Before anyone starts. I love the outdoors and enjoy hunting and fishing. I take a certain amount of pride in the fact that I follow the rules.

That said. I think the $3000.00 fine, $1000.00 per wolf is fair. Seems another fellow was charged $2000.00. Which I thought was a little high. Paying for the collars and court costs. Also make sense. But putting someone in jail for shooting an animal just seems a little extreme. Public service I think, would have been a better way to go. Also, condemning his rifle is just silly.

ATB


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## duxdog (Apr 13, 2008)

boehr said:


> Of course posts like this shows that many are not real smart to begin with but sure says a lot about the person.:evilsmile


Right back at ya. I took on the DNR and the local LEO last year IN COURT. When they tried to strong arm me and my family on a lease because they were "buddies" with the neighbor who happen to be a "fellow" LEO who didn't like where we were hunting. So hop off your soap box just like I knocked them off of their pedestal. :coolgleam


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## BigSteve (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm not condoning the killing of a wolf in this state and if one crosses my path while out hunting i will not shoot it. But I'm not losing sleep about the ones that have been taken out. Poaching is poaching, and it's wrong but if they don't instrument some sort of management plan it's only gonna get worse. Now I don't know every resident of the U.P. but everyone i've met or know has said they and everyone they know won't hesitate a second to shoot a wolf. If i had a dime for everytime i had a "local" tell me to shoot em in the guts so they run off and don't die by your spot i'd be rich. Our deer camp in iron county started in 1987 and always had they same core 10 guys or so with it normally reaching about 13-15 guys for the entire gun season. It has gotten so bad there were only 3 guys this year and though a nice 10 point was killed the sightings were rare and other camps in the area were getting skunked as well. I have a feeling that our deer camp may never regain it's former glory. We used to have a blast, fill the buckpole, and nobody ever wanted to go home, now nobody even wants to go. And it's not just the winters, we've lived through the cycles of really hard winters and they would always rebound and in a couple years the numbers would be back up. Even in those bad years we would still have pretty good success but now there's just nothing. And I see only one reason why.:rant:


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

da Appleknocker said:


> Hubb, Michigan already has a wolf management plan, it can be found on the DNR website. The problem is the anti's have gone to federal court and had the wolf relisted as an endangered species and it taskes time and money to fight them. MDNR's hands are tied. But, I wonder why Michigan doesn't do what Idaho is doing. Their DNR refuses to get involved in ANY wolf management issues. They leave it up to the Feds. Therefore it cost the hunters nothing. Nothing for investigations, nothing for arrest and nothing for prosecutions. It should be saving them millions. I wonder if Michigans DNR has the kahunnas to stand up to the Feds. :lol:


This is the best most realistic suggestion I have heard on this section. Unfortunately it makes to much sense for past leaders to follow, maybe this new guy will


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

boostfan said:


> This is the best most realistic suggestion I have heard on this section. Unfortunately it makes to much sense for past leaders to follow, maybe this new guy will


I thought we needed a management plan in place, when they were de-listed. This was with an eye towards hunting them for sport.

Could be wrong of course.

ATB


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## da Appleknocker (Jan 26, 2009)

Mickey, you are absolutely correct. I believe the wolf WAS delisted for a short time. Then the anti's got involved and found a Progressive Federal judge who was sympathetic to their cause and ordered them re-listed. I don't think Michigan has been aggressive enough in fighting the Feds over this issue. They had a chance to join a lawsuit with Wisconsin and Minnesota, but under our Progressive Governor Granholm we declined for financial reasons. If I am wrong, somebody please correct me but this is as I understand the situation. When the wolf IS de-listed the management plan will help the DNR quickly put togeather a wolf hunting season, Hopefully!


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

duxdog said:


> Right back at ya. I took on the DNR and the local LEO last year IN COURT. When they tried to strong arm me and my family on a lease because they were "buddies" with the neighbor who happen to be a "fellow" LEO who didn't like where we were hunting. So hop off your soap box just like I knocked them off of their pedestal. :coolgleam


Oh Yeah, you da man! :lol::gaga: But your own comments still tell volumes about you.


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## duxdog (Apr 13, 2008)

boehr said:


> Oh Yeah, you da man! :lol::gaga: But your own comments still tell volumes about you.


LOL, rght back at ya. You don't know me. But I know your kind. I used to be right in the middle of the LEO crowd. I know what it is all about my friend.....guilty til proven innocent right? Whatever....I am done with this crap. I am retiring to lurker. Have a nice life.:coolgleam


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## bear50 (Mar 10, 2010)

augustus0603 said:


> Don't be sorry. You're right on. Very well put.
> 
> If you're going to be one of the low lifes that take pride in illegal killings, don't post it on the internet for opposition groups to use as ammo. You're no smarter than the idiot who got caught.


Amen !! These guy's give us a bad rap and dont give a crap.


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## captjimtc (Aug 10, 2005)

Problem is when they start coming into yards and taking pets and endangering family members laws mean nothing to any hunter or non hunter I know. They are going to kill them like it or not and rightly so. It has nothing to do with bragging rights at all it has to do with protection of loved ones. The DNR officers by me say to shoot the alpha male first and the rest should leave if they don't shoot the whole pack. The speaks volumes about what some MI LEO's feel about having their hands tied. and how to deal with them.


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

I have seen a lot of UP hunters on here claim that they are seeing more wolf tracks than deer. If that is true, they are starting to out grow their venison food source, which means they will be looking for new sources possibly including the family pet or small children soon.


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## doogie mac (Oct 24, 2010)

boostfan said:


> I have seen a lot of UP hunters on here claim that they are seeing more wolf tracks than deer. If that is true, they are starting to out grow their venison food source, which means they will be looking for new sources possibly including the family pet or small children soon.


 Yeah, I have seen a few more wolf tracks this winter.But the deer didnt "yard" in my neck this year due to another relatively easy winter. I do think this is one of the reasons the wolfies have been hanging around.
You have to remember that mother nature is very cyclic. Up goes the snowshoe hare poulation....all the sudden you have more Robert cats. Same goes true with wolves/deer. I may be looking through rose colored glasses here,but Idont think wolves will turn on the family pet any more than what they already are. And I certainly dont believe that we as humans are in jeopardy-sure you could have the isolated case where someone gets attacked,although I highly doubt it.


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## oldforester (Feb 12, 2004)

No way I can condone any poaching.

Now, that said, I also understand that wolves have been hunted to near extinction for some very good reasons. They just don't interact well with people and the pets and livestock people keep. Everywhere there is a healthy wolf population in the United States there are predation problems. 

I have come to the conclusion that people/livestock/pets/local economic support from hunters are more valuable to social needs than wolf sightings. If the wolf population grows no higher or is somewhat reduced I will not loose any sleep over it.


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

doogie mac said:


> Yeah, I have seen a few more wolf tracks this winter.But the deer didnt "yard" in my neck this year due to another relatively easy winter. I do think this is one of the reasons the wolfies have been hanging around.
> You have to remember that mother nature is very cyclic. Up goes the snowshoe hare poulation....all the sudden you have more Robert cats. Same goes true with wolves/deer. I may be looking through rose colored glasses here,but Idont think wolves will turn on the family pet any more than what they already are. And I certainly dont believe that we as humans are in jeopardy-sure you could have the isolated case where someone gets attacked,although I highly doubt it.


I hope your correct. I understand the cycle of nature as it applies to plant eating animals, but I am not sure about large predators. If I recall correctly the tree hunters in California got laws passed making it illegal to hunt mountain lions. A few years later when the population over grew the availability of food bad things happened including joggers being attacked running down the street.


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## doogie mac (Oct 24, 2010)

boostfan said:


> I hope your correct. I understand the cycle of nature as it applies to plant eating animals, but I am not sure about large predators. If I recall correctly the tree hunters in California got laws passed making it illegal to hunt mountain lions. A few years later when the population over grew the availability of food bad things happened including joggers being attacked running down the street.


 I understand what your saying.
Yeah, I do remember those attacks.Its something to be aware of.
I remember before I moved to Alaska,everyone said that i had to get the biggest,baddest handgun i could buy to protect myself from the bears. I kinda thought this a little odd-afterall,it was not as if I was going to coexist with the things. Never did buy that ruger red hawk....
I dont know...wolves have gotten a bad rap since the beginning,midevil stories depicted them as the devil,etc. Its tough being the top dog:lol:. We have to learn to live with these creatures-someday there will be management,hopefully soon.


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## Drisc13 (May 6, 2009)

with wolves there is so much emotion...hard to see the "real" science and many try to spin it to match their own agenda's. As a deer hunter, I don't need the competition!


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

doogie mac said:


> someday there will be management,hopefully soon.


I couldn't agree more


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## doogie mac (Oct 24, 2010)

Drisc13 said:


> with wolves there is so much emotion...hard to see the "real" science and many try to spin it to match their own agenda's. As a deer hunter, I don't need the competition!


 This is true,very true.


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## Dixiedog (Aug 9, 2006)

Just wondering when this is getting kicked off as I have a snowy owl hunt comming up next weekend.:lol:


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## Bigfish1734 (May 16, 2009)

The reason that the state cant put any sort of huntng regulations on wolves is because they are federally endangered. Every time they get taken off the list, anti hunting organizations find a way to fight the ruling and get them placed back on the list. I go to school at MSU and am a fisheries and wildlife biology major. We have guest speakers from the DNR come in and give presentations including Dr Pat Lederle who is the research section supervisor for the Wildlife Division of the DNR. Believe me, if they could set up a hunting season, they would. But right now its illegal, and poaching is poaching. You should get punished.


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## doogie mac (Oct 24, 2010)

Dixiedog said:


> Just wondering when this is getting kicked off as I have a snowy owl hunt comming up next weekend.:lol:


Arent you something.


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

Bigfish1734 said:


> The reason that the state cant put any sort of huntng regulations on wolves is because they are federally endangered. Every time they get taken off the list, anti hunting organizations find a way to fight the ruling and get them placed back on the list. I go to school at MSU and am a fisheries and wildlife biology major. We have guest speakers from the DNR come in and give presentations including Dr Pat Lederle who is the research section supervisor for the Wildlife Division of the DNR. Believe me, if they could set up a hunting season, they would. But right now its illegal, and poaching is poaching. You should get punished.


If the DNR believes that the wolf population needs managed anyway, why is it that when a wolf gets poached, they try to turn it into a episode of CSI. They don't put near that effort into a poached deer. Like you said poaching is poaching. I just wish the DNR would put some of the extraordinary effort and resources they put into catching wolf poachers into going head to head with the Feds.

If my doctor treated my symptoms, and ignored the cure because it was easier for him I would be livid. I personally think that is how the DNR is treating the issue.


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## bear50 (Mar 10, 2010)

Bigfish1734 said:


> The reason that the state cant put any sort of huntng regulations on wolves is because they are federally endangered. Every time they get taken off the list, anti hunting organizations find a way to fight the ruling and get them placed back on the list. I go to school at MSU and am a fisheries and wildlife biology major. We have guest speakers from the DNR come in and give presentations including Dr Pat Lederle who is the research section supervisor for the Wildlife Division of the DNR. Believe me, if they could set up a hunting season, they would. But right now its illegal, and poaching is poaching. You should get punished.


Well said !!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bigfish1734 (May 16, 2009)

The process to taking a species off the endangered species list is a long one. Im pretty sure everytime they have a set back they need to start over. Originally the population goal for wolves in Michigan was 250 individuals. Now the population in Michigan is close to 550. 

One of the main problems to the issue is that once the species is taken off of the ESL, it has no protection. A management plan has to be ready to be put in place right as the species is delisted so it has some sort of protection against poaching. 

Bigfish


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## Beaverhunter2 (Jan 22, 2005)

A couple links related to Michigan's Wolf Management Plan:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10371_10402-217037--,00.html

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12141-213610--,00.html (Note wolves and eagles were removed from the list in 2009.)

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12205-32569--,00.html

For those who are beating up on the Feds and the DNR, you do realize that the Feds already delisted wolves in the Great Lakes once, right? And that the Michigan removed them from our list and they have not been relisted. The reason the management of wolves is not already in the hands of the DNR is that the HSUS filed a lawsuit to force the Feds to relist them because they did not allow a 90-day public comment period as the ESA requires. A Federal Judge ordered them to relist wolves and go through the delisting process following the rules laid out in the ESA.

You can beat the Feds up for not having the sense to follow their own rules, but not for not trying to delist wolves. And as far as the MDNR, they're ready. They are waiting on the USFWS to go through the process.

The tough part will be _after_ they are delisted. Then we have to get it through the Legislature to establish wolves as a furbearer instead of a protected species. That's the DNR's plan. The challenge will be getting the Legislators on board.

John
John


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## doogie mac (Oct 24, 2010)

Beaverhunter2 said:


> A couple links related to Michigan's Wolf Management Plan:
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10371_10402-217037--,00.html
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification. Tough road ahead.....


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

boostfan said:


> If the DNR believes that the wolf population needs managed anyway, why is it that when a wolf gets poached, they try to turn it into a episode of CSI. They don't put near that effort into a poached deer. Like you said poaching is poaching. I just wish the DNR would put some of the extraordinary effort and resources they put into catching wolf poachers into going head to head with the Feds.
> 
> If my doctor treated my symptoms, and ignored the cure because it was easier for him I would be livid. I personally think that is how the DNR is treating the issue.


 
DEER ARE NOT FEDERALLY PROTECTED THATS WHY!!!!!!

Ganzer


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## bearstalker (Oct 10, 2010)

S.E. Alaska probably is the only place that an non resident can take up to five wolves. And there are plenty of wolves. Mostly, we shoot them on chance basis, when they pop up. But then a fawn bleat has been known to draw them from cover at a distance. I think that predator hunters, especially coyote callers, have a lot to offer on the topic of more ways to call our wolves. Any ideas? Thank you. Some of the hunters coming up for black bears are interested on picking up a few wolves on the side when they fill their bear tag. Much remains to be learned by us up north on wolf calling. Moose and bear around here come running to a call. So far, the wolves will come out of the timber once in a while and have a quick look before disappearing. I wonder what the ticket will be to get the wolves to throw caution to the wind.


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

bearstalker said:


> S.E. Alaska probably is the only place that an non resident can take up to five wolves. And there are plenty of wolves. Mostly, we shoot them on chance basis, when they pop up. But then a fawn bleat has been known to draw them from cover at a distance. I think that predator hunters, especially coyote callers, have a lot to offer on the topic of more ways to call our wolves. Any ideas? Thank you. Some of the hunters coming up for black bears are interested on picking up a few wolves on the side when they fill their bear tag. Much remains to be learned by us up north on wolf calling. Moose and bear around here come running to a call. So far, the wolves will come out of the timber once in a while and have a quick look before disappearing. I wonder what the ticket will be to get the wolves to throw caution to the wind.


Wolves are a Federally protected species in Michigan. Not sure why your post is relevant to the discussion.


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

MERGANZER said:


> DEER ARE NOT FEDERALLY PROTECTED THATS WHY!!!!!!
> 
> Ganzer


I understand that 

My point is why aren't the Fed's the ones bending over to deal with the poaching. I don't think the Michigan DNR should treat illegally killed wolves any different than illegally killed deer or any other animal.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

boostfan said:


> I understand that
> 
> My point is why aren't the Fed's the ones bending over to deal with the poaching. I don't think the Michigan DNR should treat illegally killed wolves any different than illegally killed deer or any other animal.


What makes you think they don't? Maybe it is because there are so many people that are caught poaching those other speices that it isn't as news worthy. Same as when someone wins the lotto for a million or more but you don't hear about the one that wins only 100K.


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

THE PEOPLE HAVE HAD ENOUGH. Tree Huggers from out of state filing lawsuits stopping the de-listing are being sent a message from those who live here and are forced to deal with the wolves. 

Wolves are out of control, and the people arent going to take the crap any longer. The wolves are losing or have lost their natural fear of Man. Not good. This was predicted a year ago, yours truly told DNR officials to their faces.....if we dont get a handle on this, the people WILL. It now appears were there.

People have lost pets, livestock, deer numbers undeniably down. Perception is reality. Living it vs wanting it are two different things. Manage the Wolves and we might have a viable wolf population. Keep them listed they will be all but extinct.

I DONT WANT TO SEE THE WOLVES SHOT, TORTURED, ETC. At the same time, they never should have been re introduced in the first place just due to the man/wolf conflicts that arise. 

USFWS Spells it out very clearly, for re introduction to be a success, Man and Wolf contact must be virtually non existent, and calls for elimination of in roads, w/no motorized recreation or mechanical access, the establishment of core areas with generous limited access buffer zones. The plan is in play, specifically in the national forests and Pigeon River.

The day a wolf attacks and kills a child in Michigan, and that day IS coming, the wolves will be eliminated....with, or without the law.

I think it is a foolish waste of money and resource with the Wolf program. It might be viable out west or in other states, but not in Michigan.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

And when those people have had enough and deal with it on their own they will be arrested, tried and convicted and then incarcerated as they should be. 

Ganzer


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## muliefever (Jul 2, 2007)

S.E.M.O.R.E. said:


> THE PEOPLE HAVE HAD ENOUGH. Tree Huggers from out of state filing lawsuits stopping the de-listing are being sent a message from those who live here and are forced to deal with the wolves.
> 
> Wolves are out of control, and the people arent going to take the crap any longer. The wolves are losing or have lost their natural fear of Man. Not good. This was predicted a year ago, yours truly told DNR officials to their faces.....if we dont get a handle on this, the people WILL. It now appears were there.
> 
> ...


well said. however, why does it have to be a child? What if it was my wife, or yours? My brother or grandmother? I agree with you that it will happen. It is good to see that some people in Michigan realize that this is a big deal. Someone earlier wrote that the population now in around 500 wolves in Michigan. Back in Idaho when the reintroduction started, the plan was to establish 250 wolves in Idaho, after that happened the state would be able to manage the wolf. Not to drop below the magical 250 number. Now it is estimated that there are 3000-3500 wolves in Idaho alone... This is serious.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

.....yours truly told DNR officials to their faces.....if we dont get a handle on this, the people WILL. It now appears were there....

Since the DNR has no say what good did that do? Have you told the feds and the judges to their faces? 

...I DONT WANT TO SEE THE WOLVES SHOT, TORTURED, ETC. At the same time, they never should have been re introduced in the first place just due to the man/wolf conflicts that arise....

The current wolf population in Michigan was NOT reintroduce. It helps staying with factual information verses emotion like tree huggers use. 

...The day a wolf attacks and kills a child in Michigan, and that day IS coming, the wolves will be eliminated....with, or without the law....

Really? lthough it would be terrible, facts are that children have been killed by animals before and those animals still exsist. You are still using emotion verses fact. As stated, a lot more people will get arrested too.

...I think it is a foolish waste of money and resource with the Wolf program. It might be viable out west or in other states, but not in Michigan....

How much money is being spent? Where does this money come from? Or is this more emotion verses lack of fact?


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## doogie mac (Oct 24, 2010)

Everyone has great points here.
Believe me!,I dont to read about a wolf attacking and killing a human being!!! But,come on! Emotions can allow for this kind of thinking,but we really have to be realistic. Sure when you live in cougar country,or polar bear country,or wolverine country you have to be aware of the "risk" that goes along with co-existing. Good grief!! Do you guys choose not to go deer hunting because you think your gonna get gunned down by the other 750,000 "gun carrying crazies out there"??! 
I dont know what the answers are,but we gotta maintain some kind of rational thinking.This idea that wolves are gonna turn on the human population really is an emotionally driven stigmatism thats been around since day one of wolf/human life. 
Im sure this will allow for those of you that dont agree to let me have it-sobeit. But come on you guys!!!!


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

boehr said:


> .....yours truly told DNR officials to their faces.....if we dont get a handle on this, the people WILL. It now appears were there....
> 
> Since the DNR has no say what good did that do? Have you told the feds and the judges to their faces?
> 
> ...


Yet again a counter semantic point. HOW MUCH MONEY DOES THE GOVERMENT SPEND FOR A TOILET SEAT? They have studied, trapped, tagged collared, investigated, located, etc. Do I have to produce an exact figure for my statement to have any credibility whatsoever on my opinion that in the end game I predict this effort for all practical purposes will be a dismal failure, waste of time and money? IF so then I'm wasting my time addressing your questions. This isnt a court room, I posted my opinion. It's based upon numerous conversations I have had, or heard, and read. You can pick my words apart till the cows come home, it dont change a thing. THE PEOPLE ARE FED UP, and the tree huggers pro longing the de listing have provoked the enhanced assault on the Wolves. 

*MERGANZER:* Totally respect your sentiment, I have the same feeling towards it. Sadly, you and I both know, most of the time it's only the obvious and the dummy's that get caught.


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## UPHuntr (Feb 24, 2009)

How much money is being spent? Where does this money come from? Or is this more emotion verses lack of fact?[/QUOTE]

I reallyy don't know how much money is being spent or where it is coming from, but if it is coming from our MDNR and not the Fds then there is a problem. I can tell you it is not cheap to have the plan flying around looking at the wolves. And yes I have seen the plan have had them close enough by us while we were in the woods scouting sitting on the tailgate of the truck eating, to see the officer looking at us with the binos. Then talked to them the next day and had them tell us they saw us. So the fuel alone for the plan is a waste of money, in my mind. Yes these were MDNR guys we spoke to so where is that money coming from? You were a DNR officer, where is this money coming from?

Now I don't know if this is true or not but we were told that the MDNR does not have any money left in the "wolf" fund to even put battries in the collars any more.

Maybe instead of putting all this money into the wolfs they should put this money to good use that can help the U.P. economy, like deer habitat inprovment to help restore the deer population. This way people will actually want to come and spend there money in the great U.P. again.

I leave with this, how much money does having the wolves generate for the U.P., I bet a healthy larger deer herd will bring more. I have never once herd anyone say I am going to the U.P. to look or scout for wolves.


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

doogie mac said:


> Everyone has great points here.
> Believe me!,I dont to read about a wolf attacking and killing a human being!!! But,come on! Emotions can allow for this kind of thinking,but we really have to be realistic. Sure when you live in cougar country,or polar bear country,or wolverine country you have to be aware of the "risk" that goes along with co-existing. Good grief!! Do you guys choose not to go deer hunting because you think your gonna get gunned down by the other 750,000 "gun carrying crazies out there"??!
> I dont know what the answers are,but we gotta maintain some kind of rational thinking.This idea that wolves are gonna turn on the human population really is an emotionally driven stigmatism thats been around since day one of wolf/human life.
> Im sure this will allow for those of you that dont agree to let me have it-sobeit. But come on you guys!!!!


I THINK I am following what you posted.....Michigan in our lifetimes has had a wilderness where nothing out there is gonna hunt or eat you. Bears existed, and there have been encounters, but theyre shy. Wolves had a bounty until almost 1960. So our current population has enjoyed a wilderness where essentially there is and has been no carniverous worries...nothings gonna get ya. Things have great potential to change, and PEOPLE who have to deal with that in daily life dont like it. Thier livestock and pets have been killed and eaten, their kids followed to the bus stop. It's new, they never had to worry about it before, and they have stories from elders they reflect on.

Last fall, a guy in the U.P. working for the soil conservation district ended up climbing a tree to get away from a wolf that stood him down. He tried jousting a popple stick/pole/log to fend the wolf back and the wolf became MORE agressive and advanced. THe guy retreated to a tree later seizing the opportunity to get out of there. He had wandered too close to a kill site apparently and saw 5 wolves. Only a couple initially, but when he went to back away, he discovered he had company. Many try to dismiss the story. I am familiar with the guy, I know his friends, it's a true story. He said the wolf every bit 150#.

Yes, If I was in Alaska, or out west, then I have my guard up in a PREDOMINENTLY UNPOPULATED AREA. Yes the UP is a vast wilderness to some, but in reality youre a 2 hour walk from civilization anywhere up there. (assuming you pick the right direction) No so out west or in Alaska. There is PLENTY OF ROOM for both to exist. Wolves range 50 miles, sometimes in a day....we dont have the land area to easily co exist. PEOPLE WONT TOLERATE THEM.


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## doogie mac (Oct 24, 2010)

S.E.M.O.R.E. said:


> I THINK I am following what you posted.....Michigan in our lifetimes has had a wilderness where nothing out there is gonna hunt or eat you. Bears existed, and there have been encounters, but theyre shy. Wolves had a bounty until almost 1960. So our current population has enjoyed a wilderness where essentially there is and has been no carniverous worries...nothings gonna get ya. Things have great potential to change, and PEOPLE who have to deal with that in daily life dont like it. Thier livestock and pets have been killed and eaten, their kids followed to the bus stop. It's new, they never had to worry about it before, and they have stories from elders they reflect on.
> 
> Last fall, a guy in the U.P. working for the soil conservation district ended up climbing a tree to get away from a wolf that stood him down. He tried jousting a popple stick/pole/log to fend the wolf back and the wolf became MORE agressive and advanced. THe guy retreated to a tree later seizing the opportunity to get out of there. He had wandered too close to a kill site apparently and saw 5 wolves. Only a couple initially, but when he went to back away, he discovered he had company. Many try to dismiss the story. I am familiar with the guy, I know his friends, it's a true story. He said the wolf every bit 150#.
> 
> Yes, If I was in Alaska, or out west, then I have my guard up in a PREDOMINENTLY UNPOPULATED AREA. Yes the UP is a vast wilderness to some, but in reality youre a 2 hour walk from civilization anywhere up there. (assuming you pick the right direction) No so out west or in Alaska. There is PLENTY OF ROOM for both to exist. Wolves range 50 miles, sometimes in a day....we dont have the land area to easily co exist. PEOPLE WONT TOLERATE THEM.


 I do understand what your saying.
Im all for management. Its time.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

It took the Michigan DNR a month to respond to an e mail last year but they did admit that a portion of the funds that they spend on wolf management comes right out of hunting and fishing license dollars.


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## Falk (Jan 18, 2005)

Robert Holmes said:


> It took the Michigan DNR a month to respond to an e mail last year but they did admit that a portion of the funds that they spend on wolf management comes right out of hunting and fishing license dollars.


 If that is a fact, then I must say it is B.S. Not one dime of our hunting license money should be being spent on these varmits.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

The DNR receives its money from the public but they will not openly discuss how it is spent or how much of it is being spent and what it is being spent on. In other words when I tried to learn how much money the DNR spent on wolves in Michigan I could not find any details. This should be public information. If HSUS wants wolves in Michigan so badly then they should pay the costs to support them not to mention the lost revenues businesses suffer in the UP. I would bet my paycheck that the DNR spends alot more money on wolves than it does on deer management in the UP. That is exactly why tolorance for them is getting pretty low.


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

Robert Holmes said:


> It took the Michigan DNR a month to respond to an e mail last year but *they did admit that a portion of the funds that they spend on wolf management comes right out of hunting and fishing license dollars*.


at face value of what you posted, that would be a violation of state law in addition to pittman robertson rules.

Possible you would be willing to share the email exchange? IF it's true, it should be addressed.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

SEMORE - The current wolf population in Michigan was NOT reintroduced. This info has been provided time and time again on this site You are stating false information, guess work on money spent, along with the lack of anything creditable and there is no sense arguing because you can't provide facts and I'm not going to argue with you.

I don't and have never advocated wolfs shouldn't be managed but there is a right way to do that within the law and when there isn't then one has to work to change the law verses trying to pass emotion as fact. Your way is no better than the way the tree huggers do it so your methods result in being in the same class.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

I think I saw a shooter on the grassy knoll.:lol:
Did that wolf's head snap back...and to the left?


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## captjimtc (Aug 10, 2005)

MERGANZER said:


> And when those people have had enough and deal with it on their own they will be arrested, tried and convicted and then incarcerated as they should be.
> 
> Ganzer



Good luck with that! Not enough CO's, people gut shooting them and letting them run and die somewhere else with small caliber rifles and add that to the people that pay the fines and still don't care because it's cheaper than a guided hunt. They will be shot period plain and simple. Manage them or lose them take your pick. Why not trap half of the 500+ and re-introduce to the LP. Heck it's part of the state and I'm all for that. Maybe they'll start preying on the feral hogs running around. If I were the MDNR I would refuse to enforce any laws concerning them since their hands are tied by the feds. I don't condone the whacking but I'm surely not going to turn someone in for protecting their pets or livestock by removing a few in the immediate areas of concern.


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

boehr said:


> SEMORE - The current wolf population in Michigan was NOT reintroduced. This info has been provided time and time again on this site You are stating false information, guess work on money spent, along with the lack of anything creditable and there is no sense arguing because you can't provide facts and I'm not going to argue with you.
> 
> I don't and have never advocated wolfs shouldn't be managed but there is a right way to do that within the law and when there isn't then one has to work to change the law verses trying to pass emotion as fact. Your way is no better than the way the tree huggers do it so your methods result in being in the same class.


WOW....is that the best you can do?? LOL

When the DNR RESTORES it's credibility, then, PERHAPS there will be credibility in your denials of the Wolf "RE-INTRODUCTION". I wont bother argueing the semantics of it either. The basic common sense observation is this: USFWS transplanted Canadian Grey's into the Rockies. DNR is DOCUMENTED doing the same here in Michigan. I believe in conjunction w/USFWS, and it was ultimately portrayed as a failed attempt. The wolves were shot. It doesnt take rocket science to figure out the effort was made again, WITHOUT the public announcement so as to keep the Wolves from being shot again. Up to that point, they werent here, and now were flush w/them in the UP.

What? Some devine intervention there or something? 10 years and BAM! 40 years to ever so slowly migrate to the UP and then a sudden onslaught of them? Blow your smoke up some else' hiney.

Say what you will, but my position has as much or more credibility than the DNR's claims and your statements here. Can I PROVE that DNR put the CURRENT population here? Nope. Can I PROVE the DNR had knowledge of them being put here? Nope. Will the day come that someone comes forward in their retirement years from the DNR and affirms it happened? Remains to be seen. Will anyone put any more credibility in THAT currently ficticious persons word at that time? NOPE.

Jim Beers, formerly of USFWS is a prime example. Compare stories and facts between him and Ed Bangs you might as well try and force two magnets together. WHO DO WE BELIEVE ANYMORE?

As far as the way I am handling this? What are you talking about? No better than the tree huggers??? 

Just to clarify so there is NO mis-understanding where I am at with this, to re-inforce what I have posted previously:

The repeated court injunctions preventing the de-listing by the tree huggers has frustrated the people of the U.P. THEY ARE FED UP! Efforts have been made by Yoopers AND the USFWS to De-List the Wolf, successful de-listing has happened for about a week before the next injunction puts the wolf back on. Michigan Residents are not filing the injunctions, agenda driven utopians from out of state are doing this. Judges from out of state are doing this. THINK PATRICK HENRY AT THIS POINT. THE PEOPLE HAVE SAID DAMN THE LAW WERE NOT PUTTIN UP WITH THIS NONSENSE ANYMORE!! Who are "THEY" to tell us how were gonna live! 

Is that plain and simple enough for ya?

AGAIN, I do NOT advocate this, I've no axe to grind w/the Wolf. I am a dog lover, I have a bird dog that is 98% DNA identical to the Wolf. She is family. Totally disgusts me to read and hear of gut shot and tortured Wolves, I am thinking "Dogs". I LIKE THEM! GET IT??

The point I am driving home is the Tree Huggers bear the responsibility, right along side the deceptive DNR for the wolves being shot today. They are FORCING people to assimilate to their ways. It's NOT going to work. *De-List and the wolves have a chance.* 

I DO have great fears of the Hydatid Cysts and Tapeworms that the wolves prolifically spread just by their presence. I realize it does exist without them, but they increase the spread dramatically. When THAT hits the medical world it's really going to hit the fan. 

Europeans dont bring their dogs in the house because of the worms, there is no vaccine. People can catch it by ingesting the air from sporelike airborne eggs. As we hunt the northwoods with our bird dogs today, we risk that contamination in our clothing, ourselves, our vehicles, homes, and anywhere else we go. 

The disease has NOT been here based upon my research. It's everywhere there is a wolf population. So NOW, because of the tree hugger utopians, a life threatening disease is enhanced with their agenda. The counter arguement is sheep have it, sheep dogs have it. Ironically, in California northern valley it's erupting with the sheep and sheep dog imports. This is one of the fending arguements wolf proponents use to defend the spread of the disease....he said she said blah blah blah....all I know is I was blissfully ignorant and free of this worry until the wolves came along. 

Oh, and that spin last summer about the wolf "pup" trapped and collared in Northern Lower Michigan last summer? Many are not drinking that kool aid that it came across the ice.or that it's a decendant of some that did..the common consensus is that was a release, the article nothing but DNR spin.

It's a cryin damn shame our DNR, a governmental agency has been caught several times of late flat out lying and being deceptive to the people. The price for that is the controversy between you and I, the loss of license revenue, and a total disdain for the DNR. The 6 figure managers could care less. 

Do you honestly believe for one second the drop in license sales is an honest reflection of a drop in hunting activity? Here's a news flash....people are still hunting, they just said screw the DNR it's not getting my money. Real nice eh? Rebellion of the people against a lying government...not exactly where I figured we would ever be in this country.

Now before ya go drawing conclusions, I bought TWO tags for deer hunting, and I bought my small game license. I DID NOT BIRD HUNT THIS LAST FALL. I HAD WOLVES IN MY CAMP THE ENTIRE TIME I WAS THERE IN BIRD SEASON....4 WEEKS! I feared the loss of my dog and also the tape worm disease. Deer Season, the wolves were there until just before thanksgiving. Not much of a deer season at my place.

Ed Bangs USFWS tells me the chances of getting the disease is nill. Here's hoping....but I remain skeptical. I keep my dog wormed, but how do I keep myself wormed? IF the eggs are airborne and on the foilage, her fur, most assuredly I've been exposed. Incubation time is 20 years+ before symptoms which require surgery if it doesnt suddenly kill me with a cyst eruption in a vital organ. There is NO medical screening or test to determine if any of us has it. Scary stuff. 

Hell of a price to pay just to have wolves far as I'm concerned. 

So tell me Boehr, put my mind at ease, reassure me...all is well, there's no place like home, koombiyah....or whatever...how is it the way I am handling this comparable to the tree huggers??

For those interested either google it or check out this page for all kinds of info on the tape worms....

http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/index.php?s=Hydatid+Cysts


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## FallDreamer (Dec 15, 2010)

I should have put my Boots on to read all the CRAP in this thread.


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

FallDreamer said:


> I should have put my Boots on to read all the CRAP in this thread.


oops. deleted


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## Sib (Jan 8, 2003)

S.E.M.O.R.E. said:


> So tell me Boehr, put my mind at ease, reassure me...all is well, there's no place like home, koombiyah....or whatever...how is it the way I am handling this comparable to the tree huggers??


I'm not Boehr, but by using emotional hearsay and filling in the lack of verifiable facts with conjecture. Emotional plea 101 is textbook tree hugger techniques. Then you attempt to obfuscate the issue by tying in irrelevant science when the topic is poaching. 

I especially enjoyed the part about europeans not letting dogs in their house, because of disease concerns that you seem to agree with, all the while enjoying that beautify animal in your avatar. :lol:

This is the 3rd attempt at delisting, maybe 3 will be the charm.


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## i missed again (Sep 7, 2008)

falldreamer said:


> i should have put my boots on to read all the crap in this thread.


boots you need waders


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

Sib said:


> I'm not Boehr, but by using emotional hearsay and filling in the lack of verifiable facts with conjecture. Emotional plea 101 is textbook tree hugger techniques. Then you attempt to obfuscate the issue by tying in irrelevant science when the topic is poaching.
> 
> I especially enjoyed the part about europeans not letting dogs in their house, because of disease concerns that you seem to agree with, all the while enjoying that beautify animal in your avatar. :lol:
> 
> This is the 3rd attempt at delisting, maybe 3 will be the charm.


 Yeah, I do get on tangents....sorry...Obfuscate? NOT HARDLY. I am not intentionally misleading anyone with my posts. THe link was posted so folks could see and verify for themselves one of the reasons people dont want them here.

The topic is poaching...the illegal killing of wolves....what is the foundation and why is it happening?

People are Fed up with being forced to deal with wolves in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

I gave several reasons why people dont want them, added a few of my own concerns to them...the "tangents".

Yes, let us HOPE the 3rd time is the charm.

How is it a tree hugger tactic to say the reason wolves are being poached is because the tree huggers keep filing injunctions to block de-listing of the Wolves, so the people are handling it themselves with or without the de-listing? I believe it to be a plain and simple reality. It's not like theyre poaching them to eat or sell....unless there's a market I am not aware of.

I DO however notice that very tactic being used by You and Boehr...you pick through and only take SOME of the posts to address...my score youre less than half on your opposition points and 100 percent attempting to discredit all of it.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Here is the wolf management plan. It list the funding as coming from hunting license sales and pittman Roberts funds. It also list's the members who were on the MDNR'S Committee, and yes animal rights org's were represented.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Final_Roundtable_Report_178862_7.pdf


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## doogie mac (Oct 24, 2010)

swampbuck said:


> Here is the wolf management plan. It list the funding as coming from hunting license sales and pittman Roberts funds. It also list's the members who were on the MDNR'S Committee, and yes animal rights org's were represented.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Final_Roundtable_Report_178862_7.pdf


Thanks Swampbuck. 
I think I've fullfilled my required wolf reading for a while:lol::lol:!


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

Robert Holmes said:


> The DNR receives its money from the public but they will not openly discuss how it is spent or how much of it is being spent and what it is being spent on. In other words when I tried to learn how much money the DNR spent on wolves in Michigan I could not find any details. This should be public information. If HSUS wants wolves in Michigan so badly then they should pay the costs to support them not to mention the lost revenues businesses suffer in the UP. I would bet my paycheck that the DNR spends alot more money on wolves than it does on deer management in the UP. That is exactly why tolorance for them is getting pretty low.


You should be able to FOIA that information


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

swampbuck said:


> Here is the wolf management plan. It list the funding as coming from hunting license sales and pittman Roberts funds. It also list's the members who were on the MDNR'S Committee, and yes animal rights org's were represented.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Final_Roundtable_Report_178862_7.pdf


THANKYOU Very Much...



boostfan said:


> You should be able to FOIA that information


Thanks - Looks like the above document addresses it ...cant copy it as the document is copy proof somehow...cant select...

it indicates they have "traditionally" used hunting license money and need to expand to other financial resources rather than the current trational funding due to increased expenses for monitoring etc....(paraphrasing it dont hold me to the letter)

it does acknowledge that as a source and dated in 2006...below is pittman robertson link...

http://wildlifelaw.unm.edu/fedbook/pract.html

*Cooperation of Secretary with the States.* The Act authorizes the Secretary of the Interior (Secretary) to provide federal aid to state fish and game departments for wildlife restoration projects. To be eligible for federal funds, a state must assent to the provisions of the Act and have laws governing the conservation of wildlife. Additionally, *a state must have a law prohibiting the diversion of license fees paid by hunters for any purpose other than the administration of the state's fish and game department.* All wildlife-restoration projects aided under the Act must be agreed upon by the Secretary and the fish and game department of the state where the project is located. § 669. 

DRIP diverted for Kirtlands Warbler Habitat
Money diverted for Wolves.
Where else are our dollars being spent in violation of Pittman Robertson??

Done with this on this thread....were talking about poaching....NOT AGENDA DRIVEN CRIMINAL ACTS BY THE GOVERNMENT!


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

maybe they could just add that to the check when they return the drip funds like Humphries promised.:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Wolverine1856 (Sep 26, 2006)

S.E.M.O.R.E. said:


> THANKYOU Very Much...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know its hard on this site (too many sheeple lapping up the DNR misinformation), but keep fighting the good fight!


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

:banghead3



Wolverine1856 said:


> I know its hard on this site (too many sheeple lapping up the DNR misinformation), but keep fighting the good fight!


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Gee, Commorants are federally protected. Everybody who is not a member of the Audobon Society hates them. People who have lakefront homes in the UP and LP shoot them all summer long. It is not legal to do so and some would consider it poaching but it certainly does not make headlines when somebody shoots one. If a dead one washes ashore the DNR does not conduct a full blown investigation. They feast on gamefish up to 5X their body weight every day. And the wolf it will average one deer kill per week if it is not out thrill killing. If a wolf dies it is investigated harder than some of the homicides we have in the UP. There are lots of protected animals out there and some are not too well liked so when there is an opportunity for some people to shoot them they will get shot. Just an unfortunate thing that happens.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

S.E.M.O.R.E. said:


> THANKYOU Very Much...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


SEMORE...

I came across this document, That give a much better breakdown of the funding as well as wolf management in general.......

FUNDING ARE ON PAGES 118-120

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Wolf_White_Paper_178870_7.pdf


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

swampbuck said:


> SEMORE...
> 
> I came across this document, That give a much better breakdown of the funding as well as wolf management in general.......
> 
> ...


HOLY WAH!! 384 Pages compiled by 19 individuals, 4 of those from MSU..I just wonder how many of those are license purchasing hunters? Wonder do they even frequent the out of doors outside of work, if in fact their work requires them to put in any woods time...but that's another tangent...

I got 3 different PDF Files from Ed Bangs, USFWS, pertaining to the wolf re-introduction. Talked w/him over an hour, very pleasant, we were definitely on opposite sides of the fence about wolves, and he was very genuine offering up any assistance I needed in the future. Those documents did a fine job of explaining the ins and outs, impacts etc in a whole lot less time and space. Perhaps Michigan over did it a bit?

A member on this site posted an awesome perspective I have overlooked...MY comparison of Wolves to biting pit bulls in the city...dog bites and the news is all over it, the dog is euthanized by bullet or animal control and NOW. A stray dog even growls or gets loose and scares someone, ESPECIALLY if it's a pit bull and it's toast. 

BUT ROBERT HOLMES put the best analogy together:

Cormorants! Theyre federally protected, wiping out our fishery, people shoot em on sight and NOBODY CARES! A wolf gets whacked and the investigation more intense than a human homicide investigation. (I kinda doubt that, but no doubt just as intense..it DOES set the tone effectively)

Personally, I got a message imprint from the feral hogs issue......

Russ Mason on the feral hogs...Disease vector, un controllable, habitat destructors...

Cormorants, for sure 2 of the three...dunno about disease.

Wolves, OBVIOUSLY un controllable...far exceeded numbers, DEFINITE disease vectors, and obviously destructive to habitat.

That destruction is the disease they distribute...dont go eating no morels or berries without a bleach bath, and I am not sure that will take out the eggs from the hydatid cysts/tapeworms....Wolves also carry rabies, brucellosis, parvo, distemper, mange, etc....just to name a few.

Thanks Swampbuck..


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## Beaverhunter2 (Jan 22, 2005)

S.E.M.O.R.E. said:


> *Cooperation of Secretary with the States.* The Act authorizes the Secretary of the Interior (Secretary) to provide federal aid to state fish and game departments for wildlife restoration projects. To be eligible for federal funds, a state must assent to the provisions of the Act and have laws governing the conservation of wildlife. Additionally, *a state must have a law prohibiting the diversion of license fees paid by hunters for any purpose other than the administration of the state's fish and game department.* All wildlife-restoration projects aided under the Act must be agreed upon by the Secretary and the fish and game department of the state where the project is located. § 669.
> 
> DRIP diverted for Kirtlands Warbler Habitat
> Money diverted for Wolves.
> ...


You need to read this part as well:

"All wildlife-restoration projects aided under the Act must be agreed upon by the Secretary and the fish and game department of the state where the project is located."

If the Secretary and the DNR agreed to use PR and hunting license $ for a wildlife restoration project (like wolves and warblers) there's no violation (or "Criminal Act").

I still am a bit confused by the attacks on the Feds and the DNR. The Feds have tried to delist wolves in the Great Lakes and been thwarted by Antis and Activist Judges. They're trying again. The DNR has already had them removed from the State's list. What would you have them do different?

The "reintroduction" conspiracy theory stuff is silly. There was no need to reintroduce them. There are plenty of wolves in Wisconsin and Ontario to have them disperse into the UP. Heck they've even crossed the Straits into the LP (or was that more secret, black-helicopter reintroduction stuff?). Also, a wolf from the northern Great Lakes was killed in southern Illinois. Wolves move great distances. Some of them moved in and reproduced. It's as simple as that.

The wolves that were in the first reintroduction effort died. I held several of their skulls in my hands during college at Tech- including the skull of the last one to survive. It was shot near Watersmeet. 

As far as people shooting wolves. I might understand why they want to do it, but poaching is poaching. If you shoot a wolf in Michigan you are a criminal.

JMO

John


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

Beaverhunter2 said:


> You need to read this part as well:
> 
> "All wildlife-restoration projects aided under the Act must be agreed upon by the Secretary and the fish and game department of the state where the project is located."
> 
> ...


Yeah, I am finding cutesiepie verbage in legislation that is rilin me up about the funding expenditures...

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(t3...x?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-Article-IX-40

The *game and fish* protection account is established as an account within the legacy fund. The *game and fish* protection account *shall consist of revenue derived from hunting and fishing licenses*, passbooks, permits, fees, concessions, leases, contracts, and activities; damages paid for the illegal taking of game and fish; revenue derived from fees, licenses, and permits related to game, game areas, and game fish; and other revenues as authorized by law. Money in the *game and fish* protection account shall be expended only for the following:

ok now look at what happened to the terminology....keep in mind we VOTED for this law to be passed to insure our hunting and fishing license fees went back into hunting and fishing activities...that's how it was sold to us, at least how I remember it and how and why I voted for it's passage..read on, note the terminology change and the loophole to piss it away just like before....

(a) The development, improvement, operation, promotion, and maintenance of *wildlife and fisheries* programs and facilities.
(b) The acquisition of land and rights in land that support *wildlife and fisheries* programs.
(c) Research to support* wildlife and fisheries* programs.
(d) The enforcement and administration of the wildlife and fisheries laws of the state, including the necessary equipment and apparatus incident to the operation and enforcement of wildlife and fisheries laws.
(e) The protection, propagation, distribution, and control of *wildlife* and fish.
(f) Grants to state colleges and universities to implement programs funded by the game and fish protection account.
(g) The administration of the game and fish protection account, which may include payments in lieu of taxes on state owned land that has been or will be purchased through the game and fish protection fund or account.

Seems when they want to spend it on non game issues it becomes "WILDLIFE" vs Game...

The conspiracy theory on wolf releases....I profiled the common sense observation...Wolves were NOT here for 30 years or so...a failed attempt, and then after a brief lull from the time of the failure, we "discovered" a pack or two, and over the last 10 years were where we are are with numbers. The line about "trapping" a pup last summer in the lower...I call B.S. It was a release I cannot prove but nobody can disprove due to DNR's credibility problems..again...WHY did it take so long for this to magically happen...more people in northern Michigan NOW than ever in my lifetime..not as remote and wild....Wolves magically just NOW decided to cross the ice?? NOT.

Mason kind of gaffed too...says the USFWS Declaring the Eastern Moutain Lion or Cougar extinct has no bearing on Michigan's protection, and goes on to say they are from the Dakota's suggesting they migrated here. OK, if they migrated here, how is it DNR adamantly denied over and over again Cougars were here until the undeniable proof finally established privately two years ago in Delta County, U.P....and WHY all the urban legend about cougars being released by DNR near Mancelona/Mesick area? They also are on record previously stating the cougar sign is likely exotics released to the wild. KINDA STINKS OF CONSPIRACY...and I am NOT faulting Mason.

My issue with Michigan DNR and the Wolves is they have failed to publicly engage in the legal battle to get local control of wolves, I.E. sign on to the Minnesota Wisconsin lawsuit...they rant and rave about feral hogs and the disease vector, as noted earlier about cormorants, yet Wolves are given a pass..SOMETHING IS IN THE WOODPILE on that one.

I REALLY WISH THE DNR WOULD FOCUS ON KEEPING MAN AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN, MANAGE OUR DEER HERD WITHOUT KILLING IT OFF DRAMATICALLY, AND CEASE WITH THE PIE IN THE SKY UTOPIAN AGENDA'S OF HAVING WOLVES AND APPARENTLY NOW COUGARS ROAMING OUR NORTH WOODS...WE DONT WANT OR NEED THEM. WE NEED LOTS OF DEER WITH TROPHY RACKS. THE RECIPE FOR THAT IS GOOD HABITAT. IT'S PROVEN OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITH WINTER FEEDING IN THE KEEWANAW..THEY HAVE BIG BEAMED MAJOR RACKS..THEY HAVE NATURAL OLD GROWTH HABITAT...SOUTHERN LOWER MICHIGAN PRODUCES THOSE RACKS AND GUESS WHAT? HABITAT. 

Some wolves....well ok if you MUST...but I am firmly convinced the anti's injunctions are not being met with the opposition they should be, rather a somewhat passive opposition by DNR as if to encourage or facilitate the anti's with their efforts. I dont honestly believe DNR today is comprised of hunters and anglers, I think theyre paper pushers following their college educations from texts produced by anti hunters. Translated, they dont know any better, theyre doing what they were trained to do, they are NOT the hook and bullet crowd, theyre bird watchers and hikers.

It explains why Russ Mason appears the only one speaking the hunters and anglers language out here. He is an outdoorsman and he wasnt educated by MSU...poor guy was essentially thrust into the wheelhouse after the ship struck the iceberg lost power and started to sink. I TRUST his word, but I also recognize who cuts his paycheck.

Perhaps with Terry Minzy calling the shots for the biologists across the entire U.P. now, things COULD improve, but how many years before he retires? I am a bit concerned with who replaces him.

I am not an avid angler, but on THAT side of the equation I understand the gal up there, Jessica what's her face has worn out her welcome, displacing a previous fish biologist that was apparently let go for having the interests of the people at heart and making them the priority with his work in fisheries vs the DNR agenda....well what the heck are we paying for then?

So call it conspiracy theory all ya want, things are a mess and we arnet getting the bang for the buck like we should be. The billions in federal funding DNR gets and the "oh were broke" and well that's restricted funding nonsense only goes so far.....ESPECIALLY when stuff like the beginning of this post is so painfully crammed down our throats....as I stated earlier...I take it as a personal insult for my hunting license money to be diverted to plant kirtlands warbler habitat, a non game species, just because someone came up with the loophole of a deer turd found in jackpines and selling the idea that it's deer habitat so planting them from our money is justified....it's lame, it's underhanded, it's contributory to the distrust of DNR..the REAL nuts and bolts of that one is appropriations DENIED funding for that, so they just stole our money. 

it fans the license fee fiasco uncoverd in 2007 right alongside tax increases by granholm on the heels of shutting down state government only to "find" 351 million dollars in the general fund 3 months later at the beginning of 2008. DNR maintained the lie trying to increase our fees, Granholm finding the 351 million didnt roll back the taxes...it was a new crisis two years later with the same tactic....and so it goes...

When is enough enough? Where is the credibility?

Back on track, the sooner the wolves are delisted, local control established, the better the chance they survive in Michigan. Keep em protected and people will take them out. As I said, I dont support that mentality, but I dont have to live the apparent nightmare they do. I know we dont have any deer and it's a tough sell to me that wolves arent the responsible culprits...good bad or otherwise, I know what I have seen at my camp...Wolves definitely impacted the numbers.

How I am supposed to get a kid to sit on a stump for 3 hours and not see anything, and have him develop the love of hunting is beyond my comprehension. First time a wolf or cougar stares him down it's gonna be all overwith. Sadly, I fear that is the ultimate goal of the future.


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## youp50 (Jan 14, 2011)

Does anybody know how the DNR aquired the evidence to get a guilty plea from William Hayward?


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

youp50 said:


> Does anybody know how the DNR aquired the evidence to get a guilty plea from William Hayward?


Highly doubt we'll ever know unless someone was at the court hearing and will share later. Maybe the ground there was too frozen? :yikes: Not sure if fingerprints will stick on the collar? Maybe found them on his land?


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## Nork (Apr 29, 2009)

Heard through the grapevine he was in the process of torching it in his woodstove when the DNR showed up.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Nork said:


> Heard through the grapevine he was in the process of torching it in his woodstove when the DNR showed up.


 GPS can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how it is used. It can help you find your way out of the woods or it can help searchers find you if you are lost or injured in the woods. On the other hand it can help DNR/USFWS employees track healthy and or dead animals and their movements. Just a word of caution be careful what you are shooting at out there. If it is legal and in season and you have the proper license shoot away. If it is not legal, then you are on your own.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> GPS can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how it is used. It can help you find your way out of the woods or it can help searchers find you if you are lost or injured in the woods. On the other hand it can help DNR/USFWS employees track healthy and or dead animals and their movements. Just a word of caution be careful what you are shooting at out there. If it is legal and in season and you have the proper license shoot away. If it is not legal, then you are on your own.


How are either one of those bad?


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