# Savage Muzzleloader



## Slenky (Feb 11, 2003)

I would like to know how many Savage ML users shoot smokeless powder verses black or black substitute. Just bought one and am inclined towards the smokless. What do you guys say? What is the best set up?
Thanks


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Slenky said:


> I would like to know how many Savage ML users shoot smokeless powder verses black or black substitute. Just bought one and am inclined towards the smokless. What do you guys say? What is the best set up?
> Thanks



I'm sure RZ will check in, he's the savage guru! Just a note, nitrocellulose based smokeless powder is not legal to use during the muzzleloader only season. It can be used in the rifle zone during general firearms seasons though. For the current season, you are limited to Black Powder or Pyrodex and similar substitutes only. RZ will go into more detail about the powders and their differences and how Pyrodex does have some nitro in it yet it's still legal while other nitro based smokelss powders are still illegal etc.


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## Sargeyork (Dec 9, 2004)

Where did you buy the Savage, I have yet to see one in a gun or sporting goods store and I would like to have a hands-on experience with one before even considering a purchase.

Sargeyork


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## Slenky (Feb 11, 2003)

Bobs in hastings have 2 of them. Only one has the accutrigger the other is an older model. I purchased mine from Natchez Shooters Supply. It is the stainless, composite stock with scope. Total with shipping was 518.00.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

i purchased mine from natchezss.com as well. best price out there, imo.

$518 for the stainless/composite? when i purchased mine last summer, savage didn't offer a stainless/composite package. my stainless/laminate was around $535 shipped. 

actually, i verified with 3 different CO's (one being Boehr of MS.com) that smokeless powder is indeed legal for usage _statewide_ during _general firearms season_. this makes sense, because its essentially a shotgun round minus the shell.

during muzzleloading season, your required to use an approved black powder sub. 777 is what i've used during muzzleloading season.

without a doubt, i would use smokeless over black powder subs. its important to note that, if using savage approved loads published in their manual, that you CANNOT achieve results that ballistically meet or exceed what can be done with max loads of 777 (150 grains). the idea that there is a ballistic advantage using smokeless and the savage is false. 

what you do get is cleanliness. less recoil. safer powder storage and handling (because of the much higher flash point for smokeless powder, and durability of granule structure. as any reloader will tell you, burn rate is controlled by both chemical deterrents as well as granule structure. black powder and BP subs are very fragile. smokeless is not). furthermore, you don't generate nearly as much toxic fumes when fired, because smokeless is so much more efficient. you'll save money on shooting. i shoot 100 grains of 777, vs 42.0 grains of AA5744. nearly 2.5 times the shooting for relatively the same amount of money.

and so on. the list goes on.. as swamp mentioned, its currently against regulations to use smokeless powder during muzzleloading season, though there are some of us that are actively addressing our elected officials to review this regulation. nevertheless....

there are so many reasons to use smokeless and only one reason to use black powder - that is, tradition. smokeless is superior to black powder in so many ways, and that's why smokeless was invented as the original black powder substitute over 100 years ago.

its also important to note that pyrodex and 777 bear no resemblence whatsoever to black powder. not in energy produced or chemical makeup. the only similarity is that they both produce smoke, and can be measured by volume. 

we fool ourselves thinking that we can make a muzzleloader shooting a 45 cal projectile anything more by using smokeless powder. my muzzleloading projectile of choice has a BC somewhere around .150, and will drift nearly 13 inches at 200 yards in a 10 mph crosswind. my 30-06 bullet of choice has a BC in excess of .45 and has no more than 2.5" of drift in a 10 mph crosswind at 200 yards. both using smokeless powder. a poor comparison indeed. in fact, my 06 shoots flatter with less drift at 200 than my muzzleloader shoots at 100. that puts it in perspective.

smokeless, when legal is the FAR better choice, ballistics aside.

does that answer your question? :lol: 

if you're interested in load data or experiences that i've had with the savage, i can continue to post on this thread, though it might bore the non-smokeless crowd.


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## DTrain (Mar 16, 2005)

RZ,
I am north of the rifle line and have a .270 that I hunt with up there. From what you know, I can use a the savage ML in the shotgun or rifle zone during regular firearms with smokeless powder and I can use it in the shotgun or rifle zones with black powder substitute during any ML only season. Is that correct?

The reason I am asking is because rather than buy a ML and a shotgun (of which I have neither), seems like I can by the Savage and be covered in both cases.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

you are exactly correct.


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## Slenky (Feb 11, 2003)

RZ thanks for the info. Great to hear about using smokeless powder for regular season and that people are activly trying to change the requirements for the ML season. The only poor thing I see about the new gun is the quality of the synthetic stock. Maybe should have went with the laminated. Can't wait to get out in the field.


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

Smokeless powder illegal during MZ season!
Talk about an unenforceable regulation!  

No - I am not endorsing breaking the law, just pointing out that some regs are just plain pointless. Hopefully Lansing will address this one.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

jmoser said:


> Smokeless powder illegal during MZ season!
> Talk about an unenforceable regulation!
> 
> No - I am not endorsing breaking the law, just pointing out that some regs are just plain pointless. Hopefully Lansing will address this one.


working on it, trust me..


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## bps10ga (Nov 22, 2005)

i have had the early version since it came out, this thing shoots like a dream but i haven't run smokeless through it. i really like the way it handles, the only thing i would change is the trigger but i'll live with it.


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## willy05 (Nov 19, 2005)

forget about the powder, muzzle loader season should be iron sights and side hammer like alot of other states, was alot more pride in shooting a deer more traditional. People are to concerned about trying to shoot 200 yards and the kill than the hunting tradition. I also have two inlines and two T.C. St. Louis Hawken rifles and prefer to use the Hawken for muzzle loader. Just my thoughts.


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

Geeez what difference does it make what kind of powder you use, that's quite a silly law. 

As long as you have to dump powder down the barrel and shove a bullet in there it shouldn't really matter.


BTW, I've seen guys shoot them old hawkens pretty accurately out to 200 yds. What difference does it make?


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## SNAPPY (Feb 13, 2004)

willy05 said:


> forget about the powder, muzzle loader season should be iron sights and side hammer like alot of other states, was alot more pride in shooting a deer more traditional.


Darn right!! No scope or fancy stuff here, just some good ole black powder, patches, some caps and a handfull of .50 cal ROUND BALLS (anyone use those anymore?) and in the woods I go. The fanciest thing I have is them plastic speed loaders. (which I still dont know why I carry em, only get one shot) As far as shootin 200 yds with it, I would at paper but not at an animal but I aint sayin it couldnt do it either. Sure wish I was as good a shooter as them fellers that shoot 200 yds open sights round balls and connect with their target. I'm gettin there though!


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

"was alot more pride in shooting a deer more traditional."

yes! let's hear all the ramrod rattling from the traditionalists now!

so silly...


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## reelworld (Dec 29, 2005)

In Pennsylvania during the muzzleloading season you can't use an inline nor can you even use a cap of any kind. It's flintlocks only. Oh and you can't hunt on Sundays either. The locals complain more about the Sunday hunting ban more than the flintlock issues. 

I would still hunt if Michigan only allowed the use of flintlocks, but many people wouldn't, and that would cost the State and the Economy money. So don't look for any changes to limit hunting,(Money for the State) Look for changes to increase interest in hunting. 

But this post is about Savage ML and I want one more than ever now. Maybe after Christmas.


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

I support hunting no matter what took you want to use to fill your freezer. That's what it's about right, killing supper?


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

yah savage is a good gun........

so far my guns(non savage) have taken animals at 317 and 376 yds,,, this season......using pryo pellets


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

deputy said:


> yah savage is a good gun........
> 
> so far my guns(non savage) have taken animals at 317 and 376 yds,,, this season......using pryo pellets


see, that's an excellent point.. 

if you're considering a savage, don't buy it expecting it to be any longer range than any other muzzleloader.

buy it because, using smokeless powder, you can shoot as far as any other muzzleloader, with far less recoil. and its far cleaner shooting..


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## DTrain (Mar 16, 2005)

rz,
Is the savage ML the only one that you can use both powder types in?


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## TJO (Dec 30, 2004)

The Savage ML is the only mass production ML that uses smokeless and nonsmokeless.
There are others out that are designed for smokeless powder use but are custom shop type guns.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

yep.. i know there are one or two shops making custom encore barrels. might be the same for an H&R barrel too.. 

surprisingly, savage is the only one making factory guns. i would think that TC would enter the fray as well - you're simply making stronger barrels - and the hunter can shoot whatever they like out of it.


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## TJO (Dec 30, 2004)

You would think someone else would join in for sure but the big companies like T/C and Hodgen powder fight it all the time. 
For the people in the know the savage makes all other ML's obsolete (didn't say no good).
There are a things being done to change the reg's in this state and in others in which most other states don't have a reg that prevents its use.
It's a silly reg here in Mi and I hope it all works out.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

I used a Savage 10ML during 2004 and was very impressed with it. That year I did tests on some of the more popular MLs on the market and by far the Savage was the best. It was by far the most accurate and easy to use ML I tested. I used it that year to kill a doe in the U.P. and to kill a big buck in Indiana. I also shot a coyote with it. I hunted with 3.7cc-s of XMP5477 with Hornady SST 250 grain bullets. All animals dropped on the spot with behind the shoulder hits. According to the book, that load had a velocity about 2,267 fps and energy of 2837 fpe. Compare that to a 30-06 with a 220 grain bullet, at 2,410 fps and 2,833 fpe and the Savage ML has very similar velocity and energy as the 30-06 at short range. The 45 cal. bullets out of the Savage though will not perform nearly as good as a 30-06 though at longer ranges.

I also tested the Savage with both Pyrodex and 777. Accuracy was also very good with those powders. With Pyrodex though, you sacrifice some power. With a 150 charge and the same SST bullets, you'll get about 1,955 fps and 2125 fpe. A 150 grain load of 777 will almost match the power of 3.7 cc-s of 5477. 

Since it seems like more attention is being given to clarifying Michigan's muzzle loading laws on legal powder choices, I may have to crank out an article on this subject.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

dont know have shot both, recoil is only a sensitve issue to some,

as far as clean up well my gun no breech plug to pull, no vent liners, takes 1 minute to clean(4 patches 5 if your anal) and has kills documented to 500yds
no need to weigh out charges etc...) but when and if smokless becomes legal my gun will be ready for it too......

savage is a nice gun it was fun see the savge guys shooting my gun at a match this year and going wow! with pellets, we cant do that.........


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

well, deputy, recoil is an issue for the vast majority of hunters, whether they admit it or not. the point is that you can get more bang for your buck. if i want to shoot a 250 grain bullet at 2500 fps, i can do it with far less recoil using smokeless powder. don't know anyone that would argue that more recoil _improves_ accuracy.. but hey, some guys are into self-abuse, i guess.

and i'm sure your gun is a breeze to clean.. point is, if you shoot BP or a BP sub in it, you _have to clean it_, right away. you don't with smokeless.

i'm not sure how you can compare your gun to any factory gun.. no one else here is looking for 300+ yard shots or the ability to shoot 200-300 grains of 777. not to mention your gun costs about 2.5 times the savage...


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

not true really, the gun burns pretty clean and to date i have yet to have issues, that is why i havent switched yet. yes it does need to be cleaned more often that the smokeless true as for recoil they can always down load it too...

funny is barb here jsut killed her first deer with my gun using 250 grains of pyro and a 300 grain sst, never felt the gun go off, now on bench it would be different. yes a custom gun does cost more if the savage could shoot as well with pyro or t-7 i would have one it just doesnt it cant even burn the same charge's so thats one reason why i didnt get it then the smokless issue untill its law then i will get one, and then again having shot it out out of my gun already well iam good to go when the change comes which i hope it does,

i dont compare it to a factory gun really, there are no factory guns that even come close to it.


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## hunt-n-fool (Oct 10, 2006)

Dep

you know that you want a savage ;-)

They are sweet machines, I have a stainless/laminated version, shoots 2300 fps with 43 grains of powder ( V-V N110 ). Has a nice crack to it, but the recoil for an average Joe (me?) is fine. Their tupperware stock is alittle flimsy, and could use some stiffening up, otherwise the trigger with the accu-trigger is great, a*nd out of ALL the muzzleloader manufacturers, Savage is the only one to proof every rifle.*

That sez almost everything I need to hear, the ultimate is a nice piece too, just doesnt fit everyones needs ($$$).

cheers!

-bubba


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

yah and ok so they proof every one thats nice.

and like i siad before there a nice gun and until smokeless comes legal i wont own one, the savage cant come close to my current perfromance levels with pyro or t7 its just a fact. no biggee there, i like not having to have to pull breech plugs or vent liners or this or that or whatever i see alot of pages of guys with issues with there savages and loads etc..... all over the net no bigge iam sure they get it right at some point but again till smokless becomes legal iam content i will add one to vault when and if...... until then my current cannon gets the call..... like i said nice gun but not legal for my hunting needs as of yet.

and iam sure ill see it and more the such at shot and ata this year


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Deputy, Have you looked at the Bad Bull Muzzleloaders? Basically the same concept as the Ultimate. I have not looked at one so I couldn't compare it to the Ultimate.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

yes i have no thanks, weird system too much junk to deprime and re prime there accuray wasnt that impressive and they coudnt answer my questions on accuracy and loads

and cost holy cow, ill buy a savage first

its not even close to the ultimate except stock and action. different primes etc.......


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

deputy said:


> yah and ok so they proof every one thats nice.
> 
> and like i siad before there a nice gun and until smokeless comes legal i wont own one, the savage cant come close to my current perfromance levels with pyro or t7 its just a fact. no biggee there, i like not having to have to pull breech plugs or vent liners or this or that or whatever i see alot of pages of guys with issues with there savages and loads etc..... all over the net no bigge iam sure they get it right at some point but again till smokless becomes legal iam content i will add one to vault when and if...... until then my current cannon gets the call..... like i said nice gun but not legal for my hunting needs as of yet.
> 
> and iam sure ill see it and more the such at shot and ata this year


i'm not sure what your trying to say, but most guys are tickled with their savages and don't have any more problems than with any other gun.. you don't see pages out there with problems with ultimates, cause comparatively, few people own them..

the savages are well built guns that are capable of doing anything the shooter asks of it. many, many guns have the potential to be 300, 400 yards guns. the vast majority of _shooters_ do not. i've done my homework. i understand the poor ballistic flight of ANY muzzleloading bullet. that you can shoot 500 yards is a testament to YOU, not to the gun.

99 out of 100 guys reading this thread could go buy an ultimate and not be able to shoot it accurately at 200 yards, let alone 500. so we can probably put that issue to rest. 

cleaning the savage? savage recommends replacing the vent liner every hundred shots. wakeman sells hardened steel ventliners that go in excess of 400 shots. henry ball, the inventor of the 10mlII, when asked how often one should clean it, replied - "once a year, whether it needs it or not". good advice for any gun, don't you think? the savage is the least maintenance of any muzzleloader i've used.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

Like isiad if and when it is legal ill get one, its a nice gun yes do i ned it as of yet to go with my other 5 smokepoles not yet. no need

well iam glad rw came up with a new ventliner good for 400 shots.
like i siad its a nice gun great with smokeless when its legal ill get one other than that i have no need for it...... i have omegas encores ultimates they all have there purpose and when again they do somethign about the savage being ok to use then ill get one.... i clean my gun in under 1 minute so i can take one minute of my world to clean my gun. nothing to pull no bolt to remove no brecch plug no vent liners no nadda so i can live with that for now......

again the savage is a nice gun just not 100% legal for this state yet with smokless and thats all the gun is good for its performance with standard loads it that of many others. so i see no need for it until this state is smokeless legal.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

deputy said:


> Like isiad if and when it is legal ill get one,


I guess I don't understand, if you have an Ultimate ML, why would you buy a Savage ML, reguardless of the law. Everybody that I've talked to that has one, including the Ultimate company, claims they are the best ML on the market, bar none. I've never shot one. Why is the Savage better?


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

i dont think the savage is better in any shape or form to tell you the truth, its a nice gun period the only reason i would get one is to have a smokless toy to play with i mean really i havent touched a slug gun/ centerfire rifle to play with in along time(except) one deer drive this year (slug gun) and i have found no need for anyother gun other than the ultimate..... the smokless thing is more for play time and another toy to have period........

TS your more than welcome to shoot my ultimate any time you like etc.. just let me know......

as for recoil and such etc.. ask brenda valentine she is using the new carbon gun that weighs in at 6 pounds...from ultimate


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

deputy - you keep mentioning recoil.. 

i'm wondering how the ultimate is so recoil-free? interior ballistics and their affect on recoil are very predictable in nature - add more powder or bullet weight and the recoil increases proportionately. reduction of recoil comes at the reduction of powder or bullet weight. or by adding weight to the gun. or muzzle brakes, etc.

do you mean to say that ultimates somehow recoil less than any other gun with such a potent charge?

or are you simply stating that people accept the recoil from ultimates?

i'm of the opinion that less recoil, from any gun, makes the shooter better. its generally accepted that recoil in excess of 20 ft/lbs (the average recoil from a 180 grain 30-06 round) will impart negative affects on the shooter, adversely affecting accuracy. obviously, that's dependent on the shooter - some people have no problem.

recoil is certainly a consideration for the members of this forum - bring up the subject of a 243 vs any 30 cal deer rifle, and see the responses. all will involve recoil and accuracy, and rightfully so.

i do know this - the savage smokeless load that i shoot is amazingly recoil free. obviously, there is some recoil, but its so much less than shotguns i've had, or even my omega with 100 grains of 777. and its still pushing a 250 grain bullet at an average of 1930 fps.

just curious - what kind of muzzle velocity do you get from your ultimate with a 250 grain bullet and 200 grains of 777? i would suspect it to be at least 2400 fps - is it more? that load must easily be generating chamber pressures in excess of 34,000-35,000 psi. savage smokeless loads recommended in the manual don't exceed 37,000-39,000 psi. i'd assume that those ultimates could handle your average smokeless loads right now, don't you think?


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## MSUICEMAN (Jan 9, 2002)

though recoil is very predictable in standard systems, there are subsystems that can be utilized to manage the way that recoil is felt (ask people that shoot the barrett).


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

you are correctabout recoil thats no secrect if i recall my numbers were 2400fps or so with the 250s


i wont really comment on the smokeless in the ultimate since they dont( the company)

as i have shot the savage and yes did enjoy the light recoil it has very true. it is a light recoiling gun. its a nice gun just not for me as of yet.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

gotcha, thanks..


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