# Freep-It's time to revisit the muzzleloader law in Michigan



## Rootsy (Nov 1, 2006)

Considering that I've never recovered a round ball and I've never had to track a whitetail shot with one I'd say that a 50 cal PRB is quite effective when put in the front shoulder and or boiler room... 

As a matter of fact I just finished up a 50 cal Lyman GPR kit last weekend... Time to break out the pillow ticking and get to work. 

Already have a hankering for an Eastern PA long rifle... havn't quite decided on which school though. Pretty certain it'll be either 50 or 54 cal, 40+" swamped and a nice piece of maple, iron furniture, wood patch box and a Siler or Chambers rock lock... something pre revolutionary war... maybe 1750 - 1760ish...


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

From a deer management perspective, the primary purpose of the muzzleloader season in the SLP is doe harvest. Over the past eight seasons the SLP muzzleloader kill has been approximately 28% antlered bucks and 72% antlerless deer. Muzzleloader hunters are the only group that are steppping up to the plate in terms of an appropriate harvest mix. 

As a result, it would be poor management to consider restricting the type of muzzleloaders than can be used. Thankfully, there is no likelihood of that happening.


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

November Sunrise said:


> Muzzleloader hunters are the only group that are steppping up to the plate in terms of an appropriate harvest mix.


Or it is the last season and people are trying to fill freezers, be it with buck or doe, and does outnumber the bucks...


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

Rustyaxecamp said:


> Or it is the last season and people are trying to fill freezers, be it with buck or doe, and does outnumber the bucks...


the reason for the ratio is largely academic. the fact remains, that hunters, primarily with modern inlines, are out killing does that need to be killed.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

KI Jim said:


> If they ban scopes on muzzeloaders, then that would exclude many of us over eyesight deteriorating over 40 crowd who cannot focus on the rear sight, front sight and deer. I used to be a deadly shot with plain rifle sights, I hit 40 and all of a sudden-things got a bit fuzzy.


and



Luv2huntup said:


> I'm also well over 40. No scopes would take away my ML season.



You aren't supposed to be able to focus on the rear sight, the front sight and the target all at the same time. You are supposed to focus on the front site, with a slightly blurry rear sight and target.

I am pushing 50, nearsighted, wear glasses and really should be wearing bifocals... I used to think like you guys. Now I know better. 

When I first started traditional muzzleloading all of my other rifles were mounted with scopes and I insisted on mounting a peep sight on the sidelock because "I could not see well enough anymore" to shoot open sights. I never did get around to mounting a peep on the flintlock. After using it with open sights for a couple of years I have come to realize that the "old eyes" excuse is nothing more than that, just an excuse.

I don't support sight restrictions during the muzzleloader season, but you guys clinging to the scopes really don't know what you are missing for fear of trying something different. I used to be that way, too.

-na


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## thongg (Jul 10, 2007)

i shoot a 58 cal hawken prb and my cousin shoots a 45 cal penn long gun prb both sidehammers and we shoot 2 does sat both at about 55 yrds his went 40 yrds mine less than 20 yrds we only let ppl with primitive muzzelloaders hunt our property its more fun my thoughts


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Nick Adams said:


> I am pushing 50, nearsighted, wear glasses and really should be wearing bifocals... I used to think like you guys. Now I know better.
> 
> When I first started traditional muzzleloading all of my other rifles were mounted with scopes and I insisted on mounting a peep sight on the sidelock because "I could not see well enough anymore" to shoot open sights. I never did get around to mounting a peep on the flintlock. After using it with open sights for a couple of years I have come to realize that the "old eyes" excuse is nothing more than that, just an excuse.
> 
> ...


I'm glade you can use your open sights with no problems, however there are many people out there that have different eye sight problems than yours and can't. It'd be nice if you could see it in your heart to recognize that fact.


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## thongg (Jul 10, 2007)

i am a gun dealer also and set up many inlines with scopes i use a scope on my shotgun and rifle and handgun i am 53 years old and wear trifocals lol keep my open site range to short distance also am disabled spinal cord injury so i hunt over bait and in a permenent blind no use of legs i dont care if ppl use inlines with scopes we just have more fun shooting primitive


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Trophy Specialist said:


> I'm glade you can use your open sights with no problems, however there are many people out there that have different eye sight problems than yours and can't. It'd be nice if you could see it in your heart to recognize that fact.


I will be happy to recognize that there are some people out there like that if you will recognize that it is a tiny fraction of the people who are using poor eyesight as an excuse rather than a valid reason.

If they can see well enough to drive, or use the sight pins on a bow, they are fully capable of hunting deer over open sights with a firearm. They just don't want to. I don't have a problem with that. Their loss.

-na


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## oncorhynchus (Oct 1, 2001)

I think the main thing is, 80%-90% of your deer hunters are done for the year by the time muzzle loader season rolls around...And its only one shot, instead of five. I only hunt public land, and its ridiculous how many times someone will shoot at a deer!! I guess they think that if it doesn't fall right away, they must have missed...

And these two things are linked. Sorry, but a good number of hunters are "weekend warriors" trying to kill something so they can show thier buddies some pics at work the next day, and they want as many shots as possible to ensure that they'll have something to brag about. 

I could care less what weapon some one uses, but how they use it!! And to be perfectly honest, Im just happy that im out there...alone


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## sneakboxer (Oct 28, 2006)

Check out ultimate firearm's web site. The guns are big$$ but they are putting up some big numbers. I bet they kick a little more than the old 30-06. Pretty cool though, I found this site off the deer hunting fourm.
Food for thought


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Nick Adams said:


> I will be happy to recognize that there are some people out there like that if you will recognize that it is a tiny fraction of the people who are using poor eyesight as an excuse rather than a valid reason.
> 
> If they can see well enough to drive, or use the sight pins on a bow, they are fully capable of hunting deer over open sights with a firearm. They just don't want to. I don't have a problem with that. Their loss.
> 
> -na


I can't speak for others but I just can't handle open sights any more. I've had corneal transplants in both eyes and wear a combination of contacts & glasses and still have poor vision. A combination of keratoconus and over 40 eyes makes shooting with open sights a thing of the past, in my case. I can drive ok but forget about sight pins on my bow, which is one of the reasons I hung it up a few years ago. I've tried both tang peep sights & fiber optic open sights and just can't see the target clearly with either of them. In order to get any kind of accuracy I need a pretty powerful scope with a nice thick reticle. Granted, I may be an extreme case but there are a lot of people out there with eye problems who would benefit by being able to use a scoped rifle (or crossbow ).


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Lasik eye surgery, to give severely nearsighted people the ability to see normally past 3 feet without glasses will also rob you of up close vision, often giving double or triple blurs of iron sights.
I guess some may say "stop hunting then!", like those who want the archery woods to themselves, but...nah, I don't think so. :lol:


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## One Eye (Sep 10, 2000)

Please note the text at the bottom in red:
------------------------------------------
PROPOSAL 50  5 AAC 92.085. Unlawful methods of taking big game; exceptions; and 5 AAC 92.990. Definitions. Define a legal muzzleloader for hunting in Alaska, clarify legal muzzleloader requirements for big game hunting, and clarify legal muzzleloader requirements in a 
restricted muzzleloader-only hunt. 
5 AAC 92.990. Definitions. 

( ) muzzleloader means any firearm where firing components are loaded into the muzzle end of the firearm. 


5 AAC 92.085. Unlawful methods of taking big game; exceptions. The following methods and means of taking big game are prohibited in addition to the prohibitions in 5 AAC 92.080. 
(1) with the use of a firearm other than a shotgun, muzzle-loading rifle, or rifle or pistol using a center-firing cartridge, except that ... 
(B) the use of a muzzleloader [MUZZLE-LOADING RIFLE] is prohibited 
unless the firearm is a shoulder mounted long gun, 45 caliber or larger, with a barrel that is either rifled or smoothbore, and discharges a single projectile; and 
(C) the use of a muzzleloader [MUZZLE-LOADING RIFLE] equipped with 
a scope, or a muzzleloader using smokeless powder as a charger, during any permitted, registered, or special season hunt for muzzleloaders [MUZZLE-LOADING RIFLE] only, is prohibited;. 

ISSUE: No standard definition of a muzzleloader for use in hunting all game, big game, or big game in restricted hunts. This proposal defines a standard muzzleloader legal for use in hunting all game, sets muzzleloader standards for hunting big game, and standards for muzzleloaders used in restricted weapons hunts. 
WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF NOTHING IS DONE? Current wording in the regulation book has no definition and as a result there is no consistency in the wording used in the various hunt descriptions. This allows for unrestricted interpretation as to what is legal. 

Example: 
Kodiak 8 Muzzleloader only 
14C Muzzle-loading blackpowder rifle 
20A Muzzle-loading firearms 
20B Muzzleloader 

WILL THE QUALITY OF THE RESOURCE HARVESTED OR PRODUCTS PRODUCED 
BE IMPROVED? The wildlife resource should benefit in reduced wounding loss rates resulting from individuals who were using substandard muzzleloaders or projectiles. 

WHO IS LIKELY TO BENEFIT? Those hunting with muzzleloaders in Alaska will have a consistent definition, particularly for big game. 

WHO IS LIKELY TO SUFFER? Those who may have been using substandard muzzleloaders (pistols) or projectiles to hunt big game in Alaska will no longer be able to do so. Individuals that may have been using smokeless powder in their muzzleloaders to achieve higher velocities may suffer. *Higher bullet velocities increase hunter success because hunters can shoot further. Increased hunter success results in less hunting opportunity.* 


PROPOSED BY: Alaska Department of Fish and Game (HQ-08W-G-078)


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## One Eye (Sep 10, 2000)

Pinefarm said:


> Lasik eye surgery, to give severely nearsighted people the ability to see normally past 3 feet without glasses will also rob you of up close vision, often giving double or triple blurs of iron sights.
> I guess some may say "stop hunting then!", like those who want the archery woods to themselves, but...nah, I don't think so. :lol:


PF, you and I agree most of the time  BUT, if I follow your logic, why have seasons or regulations at all? Some people have diabetes or other conditions that do not allow them to handle cold weather. Should they be allowed to hunt in July when it is warm out? For those who cannot shoot archery equipment, why not let them use centerfire rifles during the early season? What about someone with skin cancer? Should they be allowed to hunt at night?

I realize that this is not politically correct, but reality is that not everyone can do every activity. I too have physical limitations that preclude me from doing lots of things. Instead of worrying my life away about it, I find the things that I can do and enjoy them during my brief time here.

We have weapon specific seasons to "maximize opportunity while minimizing impact on the resource". If we continue to worry about "no hunter left behind", then why not simply move to "any weapon" and be done?

BTW, most bowhunters do not "want" the woods to themselves. If someone wants to bowhunt (or muzzleloader hunt) and enjoy those seasons, pick up that weapon, come on out, and have fun. I will even help you to get started right and welcome you into "OUR" woods.

Shoot straight and hope your ML hunting is going well.

Dan


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## One Eye (Sep 10, 2000)

Rootsy said:


> Considering that I've never recovered a round ball and I've never had to track a whitetail shot with one I'd say that a 50 cal PRB is quite effective when put in the front shoulder and or boiler room...
> 
> As a matter of fact I just finished up a 50 cal Lyman GPR kit last weekend... Time to break out the pillow ticking and get to work.
> 
> Already have a hankering for an Eastern PA long rifle... havn't quite decided on which school though. Pretty certain it'll be either 50 or 54 cal, 40+" swamped and a nice piece of maple, iron furniture, wood patch box and a Siler or Chambers rock lock... something pre revolutionary war... maybe 1750 - 1760ish...



Beautiful gun Rootsy. 

I am looking for my first flinter right now. Special thanks to Pinefarm for answering my incessant questions and pointing me in the right direction on this pursuit. I am sure my wife won't be thanking him though 

Dan


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