# OKAY now I am P!$$*%



## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

boehr,

WHY is it okay for out of state trappers to sell to running pens in this state. AND we trappers of MI can not do this, doesn't this state want us to make money off from there coyotes and fox. I am losing close to 5-10,000 in sales a year because of this and I just found out it was okay for out of state trappers to sell here.

WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

For those of us who don't know what a running pen is, please explain what it is your talking about.


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

Sorry guys.

A running pen is for coyote and fox hounds men to run there dogs. This is a big fenced in area like a section of land. Some are smaller some may be bigger.

For the trappers we would trap for what is called live market. Where we would sell these fox and coyotes to these running pens for FAR MORE then what the fur trade is giving at present fur prices.

Most prices on live market are coyotes $125+ and for fox $150+

That is some serious money I am losing. Yes I would have to change my trapping and equipment to running all night and checking between 8-12 hr intervles. And using rubber jawed traps. And get stuff from Tractor supply to vacinate them but this is cheap. Compared to my $20 fox and $20 coyotes.

Dave


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Sorry Dave, but you have lost me on this topic. I can't say that I know of a law that non-residents can do in Michigan that residents can't. Your going to have to explain more to me on that. Are you saying that they are bringing in live coyote and fox, importing them to places within Michigan or are you saying they are taking live animals from the wild and selling them to places to take ownership of wild animals?


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

boehr,

In the state of Michigan trappers can't sell there coyotes or fox to the houndsmen for there running pens. (post above explains a running pen) But I know of the best Live market trapper in the country and he said he sale a lot of live coyotes and fox to the houndmen for there running pens.

This really baffles me. How an out of state business can do business and the same people that have the capablity to do this type of business in this state can't.

So yes what is happening is fox and coyotes are being sold to private houndmen clubs for there running pens. All there coyotes and fox are coming from out of state. Because us trapper in MI can not sell live market coyotes or fox or of that matter any live animals.

This operation I am talking about is 100% legal I know this person very well and has lived off from trapping his whole life. This is his sole income. So I know everything is legal. His coyotes are certified and with health papers and shot records.

Dave


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

I must be dum or confused or something 'cause I still don't get it. I'm not a trapper and I don't shoot things I won't eat. Are you saying that out of state trapppers are catching cyotes and fox LIVE and then seling them in Michigan to stick them in a penn so that hounds can chase and kill them, however you (a Michigan citizen) cannot do the same thing? Or am I still missing something?

Al


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

Al,

YES!!!!!

But on the killing part NO!!!!!!!!!!!

These running pens make there money on live fox and coyote not dead ones. Hunters and the dogs are band from these pens if there dogs kill the fox or coyote in the running pen.

Dave


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## Fishfoote (Jan 2, 2001)

Not to sound like an anti, but I can't believe any state would allow the capture/sale of a wild animal for the purpose of training dogs...doesn't sound like much fun for the animal.


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## wecker20 (Mar 10, 2004)

Running pens are for training your dogs. They do it w/ rabbits too. The pens could be anywhere from 1 acre to 50 if you want. It's a great training tool for young dogs. For yotes and fox the pens are probablly 5 or more acres. I don't see nothing wrong with it. Don't know what the laws are. Just trying to clear up what a running pen is and what the purpose is


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Dave Lyons said:


> boehr,...So yes what is happening is fox and coyotes are being sold to private houndmen clubs for there running pens. All there coyotes and fox are coming from out of state. Because us trapper in MI can not sell live market coyotes or fox or of that matter any live animals....
> Dave


So what I am understanding here is these animals are coming from another state and you do not understand why Michigan doesn't allow the taking and ownership of wild animals.

If my understanding is correct then;

We, the DNR, cannot control what the laws are in other states.

If animals native to Michigan were being brought in from other states the person bringing them in would have to have an importation permit from this state.

If this is being done legally it would be no different from deer, elk, wild bore, etc., ranches have hunts for those animals as they presently do in Michigan.

In Michigan, the law provides that for a person to legally take ownership of game it must, along with all the other requirements, be dead. One cannot take live game, in this case fox or coyote, and reduce that live game to possession in most cases. By most cases that would mean the possibility of an injured animal being rehabilitated and lives the rest of their life in a zoo etc., which does not happen very often.

On a personal note, I would be against a law change to allow Michiganders ever taking live game from the wild, something that belongs to all of us, and reducing that live game to possession for an individuals private entertainment or profit. We are much past the era of making a living off game in the manner it was done in the 1800's and early 1900's. Hunting is a sport, a recreational activity, and demonstrates our (hunters) support of the natural resources of this state both heritage and financially.

Now, if I am understanding yet and maybe I still don't understand what you are saying. ????


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

is/was - that yes, he understands that it is illegal for someone from Michigan to possess live game - 

But - why is it legal for someone, say, from Ohio, to trap live game and transport them into Mi for use by running operations for dog training?

If it is legal for someone from, say Ohio, to import live game to Mi for profit, why shouldn't it also be legal for a Mi traper to live trap and supply the same game to the running operations?


Bottom line: Regardless of other state law - (with regards to possessing live game), when they cross into Mi would they not be in violation of Mi law? 

I assume (bad I know) that the person from Ohio would need to 'permitted' for this purpose, by the state of Michigan, to be legal, AND, if we will permit someone from Ohio to possess live game for this purpose, why, would Mi not permit a local (Mi) trapper for the same purpose?

(did I get it straight dave?)

ferg....


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

Ferg,

YES you have it right.

This really bugs me!!!!!

boehr,

Please don't take this wrong to you. But there are plenty of people still making a living off from animals in this state. And BIG MONEY.

Dave


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Here are some of Michigan's laws dealing with captive animals.

THE CAPTIVE WILD ANIMAL COMMISSION ORDER
http://www.michigandnr.com/law/law_book/orders/captive.html

BREEDERS AND DEALERS
http://www.michiganlegislature.org/...ON-SALE-REGULATION-OF-WILDLIFE-427&highlight=

FOXES IN CAPTIVITY
http://www.michiganlegislature.org/...ON-SALE-REGULATION-OF-WILDLIFE-431&highlight=

Live Animal Restrictions
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363-31389--,00.html

As to why for other states it is because the other states have different laws and also my answer above;


> If animals native to Michigan were being brought in from other states the person bringing them in would have to have an importation permit from this state.
> 
> If this is being done legally it would be no different from deer, elk, wild bore, etc., ranches have hunts for those animals as they presently do in Michigan.


As for the question, would they be illegal once the crossed into Michigan, no they would not. The point is that if they possessed the animal from wherever they took the animal legally and the proper permits were obtained and it is not an animal that cannot be legally brought into Michigan then the mere fact of them being here doesn't make it illegal unless there is a specific law prohibiting it.

As for why one state allows something and why Michigan doesn't allow it, there could be all kinds of reasons but as deseases increase in wildlife such as TB, CWD etc., I suspect you will find additional regulations prohibiting transportation of particular live animals in the future.

There are lots of laws dealing with hunting that is different in other states and than in Michigan. If it was really that profitable I would think it would be almost worth it to go to the other states and catch these critters and go through the permit process needed to bring them into Michigan. I also suspect if it was that profitable more people would do it and it would not be as profitable (supply & demand).


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Dave, I'm not taking it wrong, I understand your point. My question back to you is are you sure these big profits being made are legal? I have to believe those making the big bucks, if done legally, have high expenses and a lot of money wrapped up in gear being traps and vehicles too along with time and other overhead.


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

boehr,

That good.

YES there is big money to be made in live market fox and coyotes. More so on the fox. Houndsmen have a lot of money and are willing to pay good money for a fox or coyote with GOOD feet. These running pen the houdmen use are very profitable to the group or person running them. 

Yes also to the fact equipment I have would need to be changed but since I already have this equipment and can sell it for a good price. I would have no problem getting the new equipment. I would need to run all pad jaw traps and check like every 12-24hrs. and give these animals shots. I have the truck for it already.

I believe my total profit on a fox if I sold this way would be over 50-75 dollars. FAR more then the fur market of 20 dollars TOPS.

Thanks for the info also.

Dave


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

I guess what really confuses me is it is okay to import these fox and coyote into the state for use in running pens. But I can't take the fox or coyote from within the state and sell to the running pens. 

It just doesn't make sense........................

Dave


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Dave Lyons said:


> I guess what really confuses me is it is okay to import these fox and coyote into the state for use in running pens. But I can't take the fox or coyote from within the state and sell to the running pens.
> 
> It just doesn't make sense........................
> 
> Dave


I doesn't make any sense at all - seem like it may be an issue to take up with your congressman and/or Rep and see about an ammendment to the law that would 'exempt' Michigan trappers from the 'live game' rule - for the sole purpose of fulfilling the 'void' from local sources - 

Worth a phone call anyway.

ferg....


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

YEs it would be worth the call Ferg.

But after Christmas I am moving in SD. Or other parts unknow. 

All the trappers in this state should be shouting about this type of crap.

boehr,

I know you don't agree with me on this and I can live with that and I respect your opinion.

But the profit on live market fox or coyote would be 50-75 dollars. And on fur trapping the profit is down to about 5-10 dollars.

I am always think of how to run more econmial. And the only way to make some money is out work the next guy right now. Work harder no matter what happens with the weather.

In the aspect of everyone doing it. Not a chance paper work, shots, and health papers. Most trappers won't do this type of work to make more money. But I have no problem with the paper work.
Dave


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## Avidhunter (Feb 23, 2004)

Dave, Wouldn't it be more economical to just become a breeder of fox and coyote and sell them to the houndsmen? In Michigan its illegal to possess wild caught live animals, except by permit from the DNR. I agree with this law. If other states recognize a trappers ownership of such animals, there's not much we in Michigan can do about that. We should close the loophole on importing them though! If you take "wild" out of the equation, then you can own fox and coyote.

Maybe you could just broker the sale and cut your overhead by 95%


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## Kevin Smith (Jul 16, 2003)

Hi Dave

Would ya PM me the locations and contact at the pens you know of?

I train young dogs and exercise older dogs sometimes in the pens I know of, but there aren't many and most are quite a drive.

The one I go to is 240 acres with coyotes and holds some derby events that guys from several states and Canada attend, and the other is 40 acres and is fox only. This is great for pups to learn to trail in safety. A third is 80 acres with a few of each.The pens are very popular in lots of southern states, pens are often over 1000 acres and hold large competition events.

The game has places to hole up if pressured, there are natural dens and man-made structures, boxes and pipes to hide in. There is enough game they often switch animals so an individual is not run constantly anyway.

I do know that guys have preferences on where game comes from also, they have slightly different running characteristics. A guy in WY gets $100 for a coyote, don't know if that includes getting it here. The market isn't that big here I would suspect as there are very few pens, and they don't buy game for them all the time. Your figures of 5-10,000 per year are pretty inflated in the very small market MI would have to offer.

FWIW - I have never seen an animal caught or harmed in the pens I have attended.

BTW - Dave, I don't know which houndsmen you know, but we don't have a lot of money :lol: I don't know where ya get that idea, most of us are dog poor.


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