# What is it about fly fishing?



## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

The wife and kids and I went out to visit my Mom today. On the way home we stopped by a favorite spot on the Clinton. Standing on the banks above the river I could see a few bass lurking in the rocks at the edge of the pool below an abandoned dam. I could barley discern another unidentified fish deeper in the hole, hugging the bottom in the main flow of the current. The wife and kids went for a short walk (we had 1/2 hour to kill) as I donned the hip boots and rigged 6 wt. that somehow "just happened" to get into the van before we left home in the morning.:lol: I carefully approached the hole from below and on the first cast turned one of the bass with a #6 clouser, but he never hit. I made some more attempts at that pool with the clouser, switched to a craw pattern. Nothing. Tried the hole above the dam. A very nice smallie came out from under a tree and looked at the craw, but again, no hit. By then the wife and kids were back, and I packed it in. Somehow, despite going fishless, just the satisfaction of turning a few fish in a half hour, along with the slower pace of working water with a fly left me feeling very relaxed and peaceful on the way home. Somehow it always seems to leave me more relaxed than a session of hardware chucking or bait dunking.


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## gunrod (Jan 16, 2001)

Sight fishing.......or at least the seeing fish turn on your fly. I gave up fishing when I was younger and turned to hunting. I always said that at least I could see deer tracks and know they were there. That's not true of fishing since many times you see nothing unless you are fly dunking (a good portion of the time anyways). 

Now you would never know there was a time that I didn't care to fish.


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## Old Steelhead Dude (Jan 5, 2003)

yeah 
You gota love Fly fishing for the fact that your under no pressure to compete with other anglers, No worrys about finding bait or stress about putting fish in the frying pan. (Pure Sport and thats all)

OSD.


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## dinoday (Feb 22, 2004)

Isn't it amazing how rods seem to make it into the car no matter what kind of trip you are making?:lol: .......I don't know _how_ that got there


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## unregistered55 (Mar 12, 2000)

For me fly-fishing just seems to be more fun. I have nothing against bait of spin fishing but casting a fly is more gratifying to me. I know some make you to be snob. I've been on creeks & rivers with non-flyfishers and they've asked me if I was bothered by them "_Competing"_ with me. My reply is: I'm _not _competing against anyone. I'm out to have a good time and catch a few fish. I don't begrudge anyone catching a fairly caught fish on any tackle.


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## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

My opinion as to why I love fly fishing more than other types.

I do jig with crawlers for the almighty walleye, and will bait a hook for Perch.
I'm not opposed to throwing a crank bait or spinner now and then.

But to really enjoy the experience, tie a fly matching a pattern that is known to many or one that you dream up that you think "might" work, then go out and present it correctly to a nice fish and really "fool" him. It doesn't get any better. 

I have fished for 50 plus years and used most methods. I do not look down on anyone who fishes the way they want, as long as they practice conservation and respect for the sport and others.
It takes skill to properly cast a lure and present it correctly to a fish.

But there is no comparison the the skill needed to really fool a fish with a fly. 

Years back when I was taught to tie and fish the hex hatch, I followed my mentor around for a couple of nights (I didn't even bring my rod).

Then I tied my own hex pattern and walked down the river from my house to spot that I thought might be good. I sat on the bank waiting for it to get dark. Then, right at dark a nice hatch started. I had never before experienced a hex hatch while fishing and did not know how the browns fed. I heard a sucking sound along the overhanging brush and assumed that it must be a small one as it did not make a big splash. I threw my fly and after a couple of drifts without getting caught in brush, I hooked a 15' plus brown. WOW! I landed a beautiful large brown (didn't even measure him, it didn't matter).

My first hex experience and first brown on my very own fly. 

You guys will think I was nuts but, there were many other fish feeding in that same area, but I just put my rod away, sat on the bank for about 1/2 hour taking in the experience and thinking it doesn't get any better than this. (Knowing of course I would be back there tomorrow night).

I did it my way. 

This I have come to know is the fly fishing mentality.


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

DryFly said:


> You guys will think I was nuts but, there were many other fish feeding in that same area, but I just put my rod away, sat on the bank for about 1/2 hour taking in the experience and thinking it doesn't get any better than this. (Knowing of course I would be back there tomorrow night).
> 
> I did it my way.
> 
> This I have come to know is the fly fishing mentality.


Nope don't think your nuts at all. I still do that sometimes. Catch a nice fish and see others and I just sit back thinking about how much I love the river and life and the joy that that fish and my fly just brought. I don't need to run and catch another one right away to keep that enjoyment. I'm truely blessed to have been determined enough to buy a flyrod without ever trying it before. I never knew anyone who fly fished growing up but I loved to fish.

I used alot of big hardware to fish on the wall's of the St. Clair river or trolling thru the dumping grounds for musky & gar pike. But the second I picked up a fly rod, I knew that I had a new addiction. I still use other methods of fishing but very rarely now. I have not fished the wall since. I just can't get into throwing 10 onces of sinker over a railing and listening for a bell for hours on end. It brought enjoyment for along time but now I much rather be casting a fly rod and catching nothing than cathing alot on the end of a 10 once sinker in 25' of water.

Snobish? No. It's simply a matter different strokes for different folks. And the stroke for me comes at then end of a fly rod. A stroke that always can be worked on and practiced while chasing quarry.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Good question! After reading and thinking, one thing that comes to mind is that is it quiet, very quiet. No reel click as you pull in line, no line noise when you cast, no splash of the bait smacking the water after a cast..... One thing I like is the floating flies, they are harder to lose depending on the river  I guess I really dont know what it is about fly fishing and I hope I never think that I have the answer. I would rather just go out there and think about it!


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## steeldrifter (Apr 7, 2003)

For me it's the whole "life style" that makes fly fishing what it is to me. I enjoy the whole ball of wax- sitting at my vice tying flies to match the insects, building different fly rod's to match the type of fishing I use them for, reading about new patterns to try, insect life cycles and new casting techniques. Then finding samples of insects in the river under rocks and seeing a hatch from start to finish and timing the rise of a trout feeding.

Some guys have taken other forms of fishing to a higher level (center pin, some spawn guys really are detail oriented) but for my own personal tatse there is just so much about fly fishing that no other form of fishing can match for my own personal taste:coolgleam


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## born2fish (Aug 1, 2005)

I like the "life style" idea of the last passage. I'm personally drawn to the much higher dificulty factor involved with fly fishing. Anyone can catch a fish on a worm but it takes a special patience to fish a fly. I am drawn to the popular mentality among fly fishers to fish purely for the sport and challenge of it. That its not about creel. The sound of flowing water, rising fish, Catch 'n' Release, cigars, and iced scotch on a warm summer evening is a pleasant way to spend one's life.


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## wingshoot (Mar 25, 2004)

For me it happened years ago.

My Father was a fisherman. He used just about every method except FlyFishing. He taught me, and I have nothing but great memories of time spent fishing with him.


But on a trip to Yellowstone with my Wife back in the 70's
I hiked into a Lake to fish for the day. There was a hatch of some sort going on and the fish were not interested in my spinners and spoons. I hiked back out and that evening went to the park store and bought a fly fishing combo. I don't even remember what type of fly I used, but when I returned to the lake the next day I caught fish. Glorious Rainbows and exotic Grayling fell to the fly, despite my thrashing the water like a madman.

I still use most methods to take fish, but there is something special about taking a fish on a fly. Especially one you've created.


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## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

Fly fishing is not just fishing with a fly. It is a "total experience".

Unless one reaches this fishing plateau, they will never understand.

Being the well rounded fisherman that I am, in a week, I'm grabbing my light weight spinning gear, jigs and crawlers and heading up to Little Bay De Noc for a week to catch some table fare, the almighty walleye. 

Although this will be an exciting and rewarding fishing trip, it will not compare to those quiet summer nights, sitting on the bank of the peaceful river, without the sound and smell of outboard motors, waiting for the hex hatch, and gracefully laying my hand tied fly in the feeding lane of a big brown. 

Anticipating the sound of the explosion from below, in the dark, as my fly peacefully drifts in place, followed by the bend of the rod, is as good as it gets. 
Who cares if I land the fish. My only wish is to have the feel of the fight and hopefully a look at the fish.


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## sweet tree (Apr 30, 2006)

i have fished all my life but I picked up a fly rod for the 1st time last summer. I have used my spinning rod less than 5 times since. Fly fishing is a different ballgame. It is challenging on so many levels that the hobby becomes an addiction. 
I didnt have too much success last summer but I learned from my mistakes. I studied trout, insects, and asked a ton of questions to experienced anglers. This year I have been more successful. 
Fly fishing is a challenge. If you use all of your senses and are patient, the rewards (not a fish count) will bring you back to the river.


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## no lead (Jul 28, 2005)

couldnt agree more with all of you. fly fishing is what it is. what you make of it. what you let it be. how many times have you pulled in your fly and checked the hook, only to see the hookpoint broken off, and cast again anyway?


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## wingshoot (Mar 25, 2004)

another aspect is the fact that you are usually standing waist deep in the trout world. You are physically closer to the fish. Moving water has always had a calming effect on me.

Fly tying adds a whole new creative avenue to the sport.

I find myself studying insects, stream erosion, the things necessary for produce prime trout habitat. It's made me a better conservationist.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

While a agree with a lot that has been said here, there are some misconceptions. My favorite way to catch trout is on a dry fly and I have been doing it for 50 years. For a while I fly fished exclusively. But then things changed and I decided that the goal of fishing was to catch fish. I enjoy nothing more than a good trout tugging at the end of my line that I outsmarted. 

No matter how I fish, I am under no pressure to compete with other anglers and there is no stress about putting fish in the pan. If that is my choice it will be the outcome no matter what method I am using. For you guys who think it takes more skill with a fly rod to really fool a fish or until you reach a certain plateau you dont understand fishing, I beg to differ.

Fly fishing is much easier than most of you think, especially dry fly fishing. When I see a fish rising, I know a couple of things. First I know the trout is feeding, I know where he is feeding and if I look carefully I will see what he is feeding on. After that, most of the time all I need to do is get a close match on what they are feeding on and make a reasonable cast and Im on to fish.

The reason many of you feel it is so challenging is because you are trying to catch fish on the surface when the fish are looking down for food on the bottom. The easiest time according to most experts to catch a big trout is during the Hex hatch. Once the hatch starts and the fish start taking the big flies, you could catch them with a cane pole, 20 lb. test and a white chicken feather with a hook in it. If you want to be challenged, fish crawlers on the bottom when the fish are taking those big hex flies.

I know, you think that would be silly and I agree with you and it is what I say about people fishing on the surface when the fish are looking elsewhere for food.

As far as how you feel about fly fishing, I have no argument with that and I feel the same way about fishing and the challenges it presents. Those reasons are individual and subjective and fly fishing seems to bring more philosophical feelings about fishing and no one should have a problem with that. It is the spirit of fishing. I content that the guy with the fly rod gets no more Zen out of fishing than a little kid fishing a pond with a willow twig a string and a worm.

I actually believe bait fishing is more challenging than fly fishing because a good bait fisherman must understand the currents on the bottom and cast in exactly the right place to make the bait make a natural drift when you cant see what is happening to the bait like you can a fly on the surface and mend your line accordingly. The bait fisherman must also know what is on the bottom and cast sometimes perfectly to avoid snags which are not obstacles to fly fishing, even if you are nymph or streamer fishing.

Nymph fishing is very difficult unless you are always fishing riffles for feeding fish and wet fly fishing is the most difficult. I have reached the purist plateau and have now come full circle. Fly fishing is my favorite way to fish, but when the fish are in a neutral mood sitting in a deep back eddy a finesse presentation with super light line and the right bait made right in the fishes face is the most challenging form of fishing in my opinion.

The total experience is mastering all techniques and finding the one the one that works at that moment in time when nothing else will work. And while anyone can catch a fish on a worm, not everyone can consistently catch fish in the 20 inch range out side of catch and release areas. Catching fish in catch and release areas is like fishing in a trout pond and not really much of a challenge at all.

In the end, all that matters is you feel a special kin to nature when your fishing no matter what method you use. If you ever wonder if fly fishing is more philosophical and or metaphysical than a sport, ask yourself this question. Is it more important to catch a fish on a fly than it is to catch a fish? Either way, it is your choice.


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## steeldrifter (Apr 7, 2003)

Not a misconception Splitshot- just a difference in opinions. You may feel bait fishing is more challenging, but that's just _your_ opinion, and your entitled to it. Since you've been fly fishing for 50 yrs (20 yrs myself) then you of all people should know that dry fly fishing is not an "easy" way to catch fish unless you talking small stockers. Trying to lay a small dry just a foot and a half or two feet in front of a rising trout with two or three various current speeds between you and the trout, and avoid drag long enough for him to take. That take's more than just average skill.



> The reason many of you feel it is so challenging is because you are trying to catch fish on the surface when the fish are looking down for food on the bottom.


Not true. I fish streamers and nymphs probably 60% of the time, and even nymph fishing and streamer fishing can be challenging, I dont believe anyone is foolish enough to think fly fishing is "only" dry fly fishing.

As I said though, your entitled to your opinion, whatever it may be.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Misconception, opinion, call it anything you want. Sometimes you must make casts like you described and that does takes more skill, but I wasn't talking about the exceptions. I also mentioned that streamer, nymph and wet flies increased the level of difficulty.

Bait does have the advantage of being real and has scent but some days it is the only way get some fish to bite in my opinion. Last year I was fishing a stream that contains only wild fish and while eating lunch when I heard a splash. I put my fly rod together and tied on a small mayfly imitation close to what I had seen hatching. Five minutes later the fish rose again and I could see it was a big fish. I waited a minute and hooked the fish on the first cast and if I remember right it was around 20 inches.

I saw no other fish rising the entire day. Go figure. Call me opportunist if you want, but my goal is to catch the biggest fish I can. Actually I don't even care what type of fishing is the most challenging as it really makes no difference. All I can say is my statement is based on thousands of hours of actual fishing, but your right it is still an opinion as we are not talking science here.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Splitshot's right

You guys are all fools. Dream that silly little dream. WAKE UP and smell the worm bedding...LOL

Flydunkers..... sheesh


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## Old Steelhead Dude (Jan 5, 2003)

I respect all opinions but like the old saying goes 
(Opinions are like a##holes we all have one)
And here is mine

The very first way you teach a youngster to fish is with bait weather the bait is laying on the bottom or drifting in the current It's the easiest way and the most successful way to consistently catch fish of any method bar none (except dynamite)

IMHO 
To comparing the challenge of bait fishing or drifting bait, to any type of fly fishing, and to say it's more challenging is just plain BS.


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## steeldrifter (Apr 7, 2003)

:lol: @Ralf



I know what your saying Ray. I'm just saying that everyone enjoy's different style's of fishing for different reasons. And _Any_ style of fishing can be taken to a higher science if the angler want's to take it that far, or it can be as easy and the angler want's to make it. That's what's great about the sport of fishing.:coolgleam


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

And I agree with Ralf. lol

Well said Steeldrifter!

Old fishing Dude,

Your right on too, if you consider it challenging to try to get the big trout to come up after a dry fly when they aren't looking up. I guess it is all in the definition. Like I said you could consider fishing crawlers on the bottom challenging too when the "Hex" is on, but I call it something different. What you said about opinions.


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## OLB (Aug 11, 2005)

I flyfish. I throw big streamers, I fish dries, nymphs, wets, etc., if theres fur and feathers on a hook, I'll be using them. To say fishing for trout with bait is more challenging is a joke. Sure there might be some aspects of it that may present certain challenges, but you're obviously missing the big difference.

When you're fishing with bait, you're using the real thing, say what you want, but you're not fooling the fish into thinking what it's about to eat is real, because it is real. When you're fly fishing, you're using roadkill tied on a hook, and presenting it in a way to duplicate the natural, to fool the fish into thinking something is real, when it really isn't.


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## fishforreel (Apr 26, 2004)

Splitshot said:


> For you guys who think it takes more skill with a fly rod to really fool a fish or until you reach a certain plateau you dont understand fishing, I beg to differ.
> 
> I actually believe bait fishing is more challenging than fly fishing because a good bait fisherman must understand the currents on the bottom and cast in exactly the right place to make the bait make a natural drift when you cant see what is happening to the bait like you can a fly on the surface and mend your line accordingly. The bait fisherman must also know what is on the bottom and cast sometimes perfectly to avoid snags which are not obstacles to fly fishing, even if you are nymph or streamer fishing.
> 
> ...


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

OLB,

The easiest way to catch a big brown trout is during the Hex, even for me. If you read what I said about fishing with crawlers during the Hex hatch I said it would be silly when I could have said it was stupid, but I was trying not to be insulting like you.

If you are using bait you are going to get more hookups for the obvious reasons you stated, and mostly because the trout actually feed on real things on the bottom more than taking bugs off the surface. Lots of guys think all you have to do is throw a worm in the water and the big fish will eat it. Planters and little ones sometimes, but big trout over 18 inches no way. There are of course those rare times when big trout throw caution to the wind and are as easy to hook as during the hex.

Since you made the comment that I need to pull my head out of my butt, I guess it is okay to ask you to argue why dry fly fishing is more challenging using reasoning instead of calling it a joke? After that maybe we can discuss the merits of nymphs and streamers.

During the discussion lets not discuss steelhead, because they are pretty easy to catch on flies and bait and that way we wont have to get into the discussion how easy it is to line fish using the two fly rig.

Okay are you ready? Ill start again. Fly fishing is much easier than most of you think, especially dry fly fishing. When I see a fish rising, I know a couple of things. First I know the trout is feeding, I know where he is feeding and if I look carefully I will see what he is feeding on. After that, most of the time all I need to do is get a close match on what they are feeding on and make a reasonable cast and Im on to fish.

I actually believe bait fishing is more challenging than fly fishing because a good bait fisherman must understand the currents on the bottom and cast in exactly the right place to make the bait make a natural drift when you cant see what is happening to the bait like you can a fly on the surface and mend your line accordingly. The bait fisherman must also know what is on the bottom and cast sometimes perfectly to avoid snags which are not obstacles to dry fly fisherman.

Now it is your turn to make your comments in an objective way without all the jokes and head up the butt comments.

Fishforeel,

I was just ready to post this when your posted your little emotional tirade. All your cliches about hook and cook and rip lips and stringers etc. only mean I hit your hot button. If you want to get in on a reasonable objective discussion without calling anyone names feel free. I guess you missed the part about me being a fly fisherman or do real fly fisherman only fish with a fly rod and try to belittle people who use other legal methods. Remember the guys who invented fly fishing did so to catch trout for the pan. Those real fly fishermen didnt go fishing to play with the fish but to catch them for the table, a time honored tradition.


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## steeldrifter (Apr 7, 2003)

Ray I usually try to stay out of discussions like this no matter what site they are on. Mainly because the people on both sides are set on what they feel is the truth and there is very little (read:_if any_) chance to alter their opinion, no matter what is said. I will however discuss a few things with you based on your points and observations as long as it stays on a respecful level and based on the topic at hand 


One thing that I notice is that you are making alot of references to fly fishing only on it's merits of using the dry fly. I know you are aware that fly fishing entails more than a simple dry fly and there is no need to explain something you already are aware of... I do however have to mention this though just because of the point's you are trying to make about a bait fisherman needing to know the underwater structure/variances in current speeds under the surface/and where the fish are holding without being able to see them. And that is Nymph fishing. The majority of trout (i.e large trout) that are not caught on a streamer or during a hatch of large insects are caught on nymphs, I'm sure you know that as well as I do. With that said then I'm certian you understand that a good succesful nymph fisherman must know all the things that you just said a succesful bait fisherman must know...

(underwater structure/variances in current speeds under the surface/and where the fish are holding without being able to see them)

So most times a fly fisherman that is not fishing to rising fish (which is _most_ of the time) must be skilled in the ways that you just mentioned. if they were not skilled in said ways, then they would never catch large trout or be even half as succesful as they could be. Granted some guys are like that and will not alter their fly fishing methods to the point of removing the dry fly, but that is a tradition that most modern day fly anglers have been able to break for quite some time now. And I know you will most likely use the argument that most nymph fisherman put to use a strike indicator so their nymph is not directly on the bottom...but I have to dispute that misconception before it is even thrown out for discussion. I am aware that "some" fly anglers less accustomed to nymph fishing will employ the strike indicator in that fashion, but not all. Being able to know where to cast realitive to the where th fish should be holding, and then drifting your nymph so that it just about reaches bottom and then raising the tip at the end of the drift to imitate an emerging nymph accending to the surface (i.e leisenring lift) is an accuired skill that takes alot of practice to be able to do properly and a through knowledge of where the fish "should" be and what obstructions may lay on the bottom that my hender your drift.

Per "true fly fisherman keeping their catch" - I don't agree with that, but let's agree not to take a topic such as this one and get into that discussion as it's been discussed many times and no good will come out of it. Agreed?


Steve


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## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

So much for the tranquility of fly fishing.........

On this thread, I'm not sure if you guys are getting your feathers ruffled or getting your worm up.:lol: :lol: 

We should all fish the way we want, tell how great an experience it is. You should not have to feel guilty about your methods by trying to defend them.

Catch and realase? 
I can't speak for those who invented fly fishing to say that they did it to put them in the pan, but I do know that today, most fly fishermen are conservationists who believe in releasing the fish to be caught again. 
This is also my practice.

I once heard a well seasoned fisheries biologist comment about some fishermen who, when ever possible kept their limit, "they had not yet matured with fishing, to know that they are not doing the fishery any good."

Some also forget that the daily limit and possession are the same. Need to count the freezer at home also. 

Next week I will keep my daily limit of walleyene_eye:


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## OLB (Aug 11, 2005)

> But then things changed and I decided that the goal of fishing was to catch fish. I enjoy nothing more than a good trout tugging at the end of my line that I outsmarted.


Wait a second? Your goal when fishing is to catch fish, but you enjoy nothing more than outsmarting one? So you use bait to catch more fish, because it's harder fishing with bait. So to outsmart the wise old trout, you throw a worm upstream of where you hope one will be, or see one, to outsmart it. Could you clarify that for me? 

Then you're saying 



> I actually believe bait fishing is more challenging than fly fishing because a good bait fisherman must understand the currents on the bottom and cast in exactly the right place to make the bait make a natural drift when you cant see what is happening to the bait like you can a fly on the surface and mend your line accordingly.


So you're saying a flyfisherman doesn't need to understand currents to get a natural drift with a dry(cause nymphing doesn't apply in this conversation) because he can mend to adjust for them. Come on man:lol:



> And while anyone can catch a fish on a worm, not everyone can consistently catch fish in the 20 inch range out side of catch and release areas. Catching fish in catch and release areas is like fishing in a trout pond and not really much of a challenge at all.


You're saying that just about anyone can catch fish in the 20" range in catch and release only areas, because fishing them is like fishing in a trout pond. You're kidding right? I'd like to know of a person who can go into any stretch of the Holy Waters(I'll use them for an example since thats the closest C&R stretch to me), and pluck fish out left and right, and get them in the 20" range while they're at it. Those fish are highly educated, and to fool one of that size there is a great accomplishment, especially on a dry(since thats the only type of flyfishing we're allowed to discuss here)



> Nymph fishing is very difficult unless you are always fishing riffles for feeding fish and wet fly fishing is the most difficult. I have reached the purist plateau and have now come full circle. Fly fishing is my favorite way to fish, but when the fish are in a neutral mood sitting in a deep back eddy a finesse presentation with super light line and the right bait made right in the fishes face is the most challenging form of fishing in my opinion.


First of all, you haven't reached the purist plateau, you've settled with bait. 

Nymphing is difficult, I think mainly cause it's not practiced as much due to many people who mainly fish dries because they enjoy being able to see the take. Also cause it's harder to match a hatch if you can't see what size/type of nymph the fish are feeding on. People who understand and only practice nymphing, are usually much more successful than people who only fish dries. But the guys who do understand nymphing, aren't silly enough to only throw nymphs. If you enjoy the challenge of fooling a fish in a neutral mood, sitting in that back eddy, and tossing your bait right in front his nose, try the challenge of putting a dry, or a nymph in his face to try and entice a strike. You probably won't, and thats probably why you use bait.




> Your right on too, if you consider it challenging to try to get the big trout to come up after a dry fly when they aren't looking up. I guess it is all in the definition. Like I said you could consider fishing crawlers on the bottom challenging too when the "Hex" is on, but I call it something different.


Why would you even think about fishing crawlers when the hex, or any other hatch is on, and the fish are actively targeting that hatch? This is mainly why I told you to get your head out of your butt. We've all heard the saying that 10% of the fisherman catch 90% of the fish. Why? Cause they are able to figure out what the fish are feeding on, where they're feeding on them, and are able to present the correct fly(or lure) to the fish and imitate the natural. If you're trying to catch fish, and you see a big brown chasing baitfish, it's probably gonna be in your best interest to have an imitation for them, and present it accordingly. Not throw a worm and hope the big brown will settle for it, even though that's not what he's feeding on. 



> OLB,
> 
> The easiest way to catch a big brown trout is during the Hex, even for me.


I'm glad you and alot of other fisherman think that


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Even though it is getting late Steeldrifter, I saw nothing in your post I disagree with. I believe that the strike indicator is very helpful in getting hookups and the smart people use them. I am convinced that one would most often get less hookups when using nymphs as a fisherman with the same skill level would using bait.

I have a good friend that is an excellent nymph fisherman but I only remember one occasion that he did as well as I did and several times when I did great and he caught nothing. Usually I will catch 2 or 3 to every one he catches. The reason is I have the advantage with the scent and movement of live bait. We understand each other perfectly and our goals are different. He prefers to catch trout on a fly more than catching trout. I prefer catching trout especially those in the 20" class and is why I very seldom nymph fish. Nymph fishing is without a doubt more challenging than bait fishing in my opinion.

By the way, my friend never puts me down because I like to hook and catch trout and I never put him down because of what he believes either. Sometimes I feel bad when I am having a good day and he isn&#8217;t. I never rub it in but sometimes after were done fishing we laugh about it. We have come to the conclusion that he is actually more competitive than I am. My pleasure is derived from catching trout and I use every legal method available to achieve that goal.

I also keep some because they are wonderful table fare and they are a renewable resource. The professionals set the limits to protect the fishery and where the right habitat exists there will be more next year to replace the ones you took this year. Mother nature produces excess and I try to make this point every chance I can so people won&#8217;t feel bad to keep their limit. Truth is, in most of our rivers and streams there is not much pressure and many trout go under utilized. I am against wasting any fish, even suckers but there are some people who think it is unethical to keep any trout.

I think it makes them feel they are doing more for others and the fishery by releasing all their fish when it is just not true.

I started with dry fly fishing, because it is so different than nymph fishing and in the end, I stand by what I said about it. In the fly fishing world you must be aware that dry fly purist look down and nymph and streamer fishermen and it is that attitude that I rebel against. I disagree with the idea that somehow any fisherman is superior or on a higher plain than some other fishermen. Once people think they are better than the &#8220;worm dunkers&#8221; for example they stink up the entire fishing community.

Now that I have answered your questions lets get back to my premise that bait fishing is more challenging than dry fly fishing.

Dave, You don&#8217;t keep fish, because you don&#8217;t like them lol. No argument about keeping over the limit. No one thinks that is a good thing.

OLB,

I&#8217;ll answer your post tomorrow if I have time. In the meantime try to tone it down a little.


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## OLB (Aug 11, 2005)

> I&#8217;ll answer your post tomorrow if I have time. In the meantime try to tone it down a little.


No problem, I'm not worked up, you're just confusing the heck out of me

About toning it down though, I was thinking I would just take a pill and mellow out for a while, but then I realized it's more challenging to meditate, but thats too easy so I'll just take a pill


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## steeldrifter (Apr 7, 2003)

I understand what your saying Ray. And I will say that in dry fly fishing _most_ time's you will have the advantage of knowing where the fish is at in a feeding lane. I do have to say I have to respectfully disagree that even given the fact that you know where the fish is, that dry fly fishing is "easier" than bait fishing.

I know in your years on the water you have most likely experianced this situation as many time's as I. You see a nice trout feeding on naturals, you get as close as you dare to him without being in his cone vision, tie on a dry that you think is a perfect match to the real thing, then make a perfect cast and throw a quick mend. Only to have the fish ethier totally ignore your offering as it drifts over him, or sometimes even worse yet, rise to it and almost touch his snout to it, only to turn and take back up his position again and then feed on a natural. Thats when you start thinking ..._did he discern that my fly was a fake? did I wade to close and he saw me? was there a slight micro drag in the tippet that I didnt notice? .....or do the fish gods just plain have it in for me and said "We never did like that guy!"_:lol: 

Given that situation I just described (which happens alot) ...now if you were to take some form of bait such as a healthy crawler, or a soft craw, or even a minnow and drift it in front of him...then just as you yourself said you have the natural scent and movemnet that will make it hard for him to resist. A large trout dosen't get to be a large trout just by sipping on some tiny mayflys all the time. So nine times out of ten they just can't resist an easy large protein meal drifted happlessly in front of them. 

I wont go into all the other aspects of dry fly fishing that IMO makes it much more challenging, such as dealing with two or three current speeds and trying to mend to prolong the onset of drag. Making different casts to reach your objective such as reach cast, reach-mend cast, curve cast, roll cast, etc etc..

The key word to that last paragraph I just spoke though is -"IMO"- (in my opinion). If you are content in your beliefs that bait fishing is more challenging than dry fly fishing, then I have no problem with that. That's your prerogative and you have every right to your opinion, so I wont try to _force_ you into my own belief's. 

I will however agree completely with you about this statement....



> I disagree with the idea that somehow any fisherman is superior or on a higher plain than some other fishermen. Once people think they are better than the &#8220;worm dunkers&#8221; for example they stink up the entire fishing community.


I don't believe that any angler is somehow _better_ than another on ethier a social or ethical scale as long as they are both using legal methods to capture their prey. Rather then anglers trying to segregated from one another, we all should be trying to come together as simply what we are....sportsman that enjoy&appreciate what we are lucky enough to have here in our home state.

And with that I will leave it at this. We each know what the other believes and feels, and I believe we also each can understand and respect the other for it. So no matter what method you choose to employ, or what method you feel is more "challenging" to you, or to I, then I wish you luck and hope you enjoy your season this year.


Steve


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

I'm still quite green when it comes to throwing feathers, but simply love the challenge. I try to fly-fish for all species using 40 years worth of angling experience and applying this to the construction of the flies and approach.

So far I have been able to fool most of our fish and a few saltwater species, including 3 master angler fish. It really doesn't get any more satisfying than that

I'm really not sure how dunking bait compares to any of it?


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## twohand (Aug 5, 2003)

You fellas just stay in the house and keep "discussing" this topic and I'll go out and catch more of these


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## fishforreel (Apr 26, 2004)

I went back to read the original posts and from what I read, there were many guys on this "fly fishing" forum and thread, talking about their experiences and how much they loved the sport and why. Some stated that they fish other methods also, but like fly fishing the most. I do not recall any name calling or put downs until some who do not believe this way joined in. 

Remember this is the fly fishing forum. You can be a baptist and believe that way but should not go to the catholic church and argue their beliefs. 

This is not intended to be a put down in any manner but I am a little confused from reading your most recent debate. I do not know you Splitshot and assume that you are a pretty good guy. From reading your posts and seeing your pictures over the years, it would appear that you are a fairly good fisherman.
You claim that your passion is to catch the biggest fish, to feel the bend in the rod and to do it in a way that will produce the best and most results. 
You also claim that the easiest method is fly fishing, esp. dry fly. 
All of the pictures that I have seen over the years, for the most part show you with a spinning rod and reel. How can this be?

According to Norm Maclean "A river Runs Through It",
Christ's disciples were fishermen, and we were left to assume, that all first class fishermen on the Sea of Galilee were fly fishermen and that John, the favorite, was a dry-fly fisherman.


See you in heaven, but leave your worms at home. lol:lol: :lol:


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## Molson (Apr 18, 2003)

twohand said:


> You fellas just stay in the house and keep "discussing" this topic and I'll go out and catch more of these



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

i agree

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

OLB said:


> Wait a second? Your goal when fishing is to catch fish, but you enjoy nothing more than outsmarting one? So you use bait to catch more fish, because it's harder fishing with bait. So to outsmart the wise old trout, you throw a worm upstream of where you hope one will be, or see one, to outsmart it. Could you clarify that for me?


I don&#8217;t limit myself to one method when fishing. If the fish are feeding on worms, then that is what I will use. If they are taking hoppers on the surface that is what I will use which is consistent with what I said about outsmarting the fish. Also I fish bait more often because the fish feed on bait more often, but I use artificials as well including flies.

If the fish are taking worms on the bottom it is much more of a challenge to get them to take a dry fly but that isn&#8217;t what I meant. If the fish are taking bugs on the surface it is easier to target them and hook them than it is with bait on the bottom. Like I said, once you see the fish rising you have a lot more information about that fish than you do the ones feeding on the bottom. Actually you don&#8217;t know if they are feeding at all.

Yes there can be complex surface currents, but after a cast or two you can adjust your drift because you see what is happening. Sometimes that might put the fish down, but the same thing happens if you make errant casts to fish on the bottom. While fishing on the bottom you must deal with a much different current you can not see which makes the presentation more difficult. Through in all the sticks, logs and snags and it becomes even more difficult especially if you can&#8217;t see them. So you must be able to read the water well enough to make a good presentation to a fish who&#8217;s location you don&#8217;t know.

So my opinion is hooking trout on the surface with a dry fly is easier when they are feeding on the surface than hooking them with bait when they are feeding on the bottom.



OLB said:


> You're saying that just about anyone can catch fish in the 20" range in catch and release only areas, because fishing them is like fishing in a trout pond. You're kidding right? I'd like to know of a person who can go into any stretch of the Holy Waters(I'll use them for an example since thats the closest C&R stretch to me), and pluck fish out left and right, and get them in the 20" range while they're at it. Those fish are highly educated, and to fool one of that size there is a great accomplishment, especially on a dry(since thats the only type of flyfishing we're allowed to discuss here)


Of course I&#8217;m not saying anyone can catch fish in the 20" range in C&R waters but it is much easier for a skillful fly fisherman to take on in the C&R waters. Some fish get caught once or twice and they might never get caught again. Some fish you can catch over and over and over. Fly fishermen call those easy fish. Example I have some friends from down south that get a real kick out of hooking salmon on their flyrods. I take them to the PM flies only waters and let them enjoy. I walked down to a deep hole with my 9 wt hoping to hook a biter but there is someone already fishing there. I ask if he minds that I fish the riffle above him. The water is shallow and clear sun shining bluebird day. I&#8217;m just flipping my fly into the riffle biding my time until this guy moves on. Third cast I hook a 26" brown almost at my feet.

At first I&#8217;m in shock. I took a quick picture and released him and then started thinking about it. There is no way I would have hooked a fish that size in any of the rivers I fish because that dummy would have been taken home years before. 

I haven&#8217;t been to the Gates web-site in years, but he has a book you can sign whenever you catch a nice trout. There are a couple of guys that catch fantastic numbers of large brown trout. I think they are first excellent fly fishermen, and they know each trout by name and catch them over and over and over again entering them each time in the book. We had a member on this site that is an outstanding young fly fisherman. His goal was to catch a 20" stream brown on a fly and after 4 or 5 years hadn&#8217;t caught one. Last year he posted he finally caught a 22 incher if I recall. He didn&#8217;t measure it because the guy he was fishing with caught this very same fish from the very same hole just days before and he had measured it. I may have overstated that it is like fishing in a hatchery, but catching a big brown in the flies only no kill area is much easier than on rivers where any legal method can be used and the fish can be kept.

The fly fishermen I respect catch fish in those rivers and streams have no problem fishing with the masses. Most of them fish the no kill areas too and just because they like to catch easier fish. I have no problem with that either. I am against no kill areas however. Special rules for special people.



OLB said:


> First of all, you haven't reached the purist plateau, you've settled with bait.


Statements like the one above make you appear like a snob. 



OLB said:


> Nymphing is difficult, I think mainly cause it's not practiced as much due to many people who mainly fish dries because they enjoy being able to see the take. Also cause it's harder to match a hatch if you can't see what size/type of nymph the fish are feeding on. People who understand and only practice nymphing, are usually much more successful than people who only fish dries. But the guys who do understand nymphing, aren't silly enough to only throw nymphs. If you enjoy the challenge of fooling a fish in a neutral mood, sitting in that back eddy, and tossing your bait right in front his nose, try the challenge of putting a dry, or a nymph in his face to try and entice a strike. You probably won't, and thats probably why you use bait.


Right on! I love to see the strike and why I love dry fly fishing. As I said earlier it is a lot tougher to hook them on nymphs than bait no argument. People fish for different reasons as we already discussed. I fish because I like to catch fish. If I catch ten fish that makes it a better day than if I catch two fish. No matter how good I got with nymphs I would almost always catch less fish than with bait.



OLB said:


> Why would you even think about fishing crawlers when the hex, or any other hatch is on, and the fish are actively targeting that hatch? This is mainly why I told you to get your head out of your butt. We've all heard the saying that 10% of the fisherman catch 90% of the fish. Why? Cause they are able to figure out what the fish are feeding on, where they're feeding on them, and are able to present the correct fly(or lure) to the fish and imitate the natural. If you're trying to catch fish, and you see a big brown chasing baitfish, it's probably gonna be in your best interest to have an imitation for them, and present it accordingly. Not throw a worm and hope the big brown will settle for it, even though that's not what he's feeding on.


Very good OLB. That was my conundrum. Why would you throw crawlers when the hex is on? I wouldn&#8217;t but I was begging the question; Why would you throw dry flies at fish that are feeding on the bottom? When I do it I have my head up my butt, but when you do it, it is because it is more challenging!

Oh and when those trout are chasing minnows, I&#8217;m throwing plugs and spinners at them. Why? Because most of the time I will catch more fish than if I throw streamers. And what did I say my goal was?



Old Steelhead Dude said:


> What I don't understand is how the administrator lets a perfectly peaceful thread like this one in a fly fishing section, be cooped by a long time member who knows well that he will disrupt the flow of the thread by spewing his anti-fly fishing ideas in a area where the posts center around the subject of fly fishing. OSD.


Sorry man but I don&#8217;t see what I wrote as anti-fly fishing ideas. I am sorry what I wrote upset you so much, but I think what you wrote was much more derogatory than any thing I said. By the way some of you keep saying I am anti fly fishing when I have consistently said my favorite way to catch trout is on a dry fly. 

Is there a problem that I have a difference of opinion about fly fishing. Is it offensive that I would dare compare bait fishing with fly fishing? People that think that way, are a big part of why some people think fly fishermen have as OLB so eloquently stated have their heads up their butts!



fishforreel said:


> You claim that your passion is to catch the biggest fish, to feel the bend in the rod and to do it in a way that will produce the best and most results.
> You also claim that the easiest method is fly fishing, esp. dry fly.
> All of the pictures that I have seen over the years, for the most part show you with a spinning rod and reel. How can this be?


First I didn&#8217;t call anyone names and secondly if the moderators want to create a forum for just people who only flyfish then they should do it. In the meantime I am a fly fisherman. Most of the time you see me with a spinning rod and reel because most of the time the fish are not feeding on the surface. When they are, you can bet I have my fly rod in hand. Hope that answers you question. 

Twohand, Outstanding! Great picture too!


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Ray,

Why do you continually bring up the C&R stretches? I see no mention of them in any of the posts above (other than yours). Personally I hate them. 

Also, why in hell would anyone fish dries if the trout are feeding on the bottom? You keep comparing the difficulty of catching one on a worm during the hex hatch. That's just plain stupid. Kinda like fishing a size 10 stone when the fish are munching at 22 midges. Difficult? Yes, but not what flyfishing is all about. It's about reading the signs that nature provides and utilizing these clues to match what they're eating.

That's flyfishing. Perhaps you need to give it another try


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

Good thread gone south. I'm hitting the river to fly fish because it bring me alot of enjoyment. I think that fly fishing is more technical than some give it credit for because they are so many differnt techniques that you can use based upon the conditions. Dry, wets, nymphs, and streamers not to mention entomology which can play a major factor with certain finicky trout. Many times the finickyiest trout are not the biggest, the biggest tend to be cannibals, but they tend to be mid sized ones that during certain periods will only take a good imitation and a perfect presentation. Sometimes in order to make that presentation you have to make technical casts. These are all things that are not employed in work dunking.

Nothing wrong with any method. 

Get out and enjoyl. Maybe we should start a seperate thread on why I like fishing, or worm dunking, or what is more challenging? 

But I liked the title of this thread.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

I've just gone through the posts and edited and deleted a few of them. The discussion was going along fairly well until a couple of members had to toss in their sarcasm. The tone of a couple of you guys with your seeming..........why does a guy who doesn't agree with us post in this discussion reminds me of the old QDM Forum (since changed to Deer Managment) who would howl about a member who came in and posted an opposing viewpoint. These boards and forums are open to all for posting as long as comments don't get personal and edge towards uncivility even dropping over into the abyss at times.

Disagree........Agree..........but keep the personal stuff and insulting comments outta here or this thread will be closed.

Now, let's get this back on topic and cut out the cutting remarks.


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## OLB (Aug 11, 2005)

Well I flyfish because it's fun, relaxing, and i enjoy catching fish on flies I tied myself.


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