# more news on Michigan cougars



## russfim

:yikes:The Sept/Oct issue of The Wildlife Volunteer has some startling news on the Michigan Cougar topic. Two articles explore more cougar evidence (including a June 2008 Forest Service photo) and an ABC News investigative report about the possiblity of "cougar cover-up" by wildlife biologists. This is sure to raise some interesting questions and comments to continue this ongoing debate. Why is this causing such a division among outdoorsmen and women?


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## Linda G.

When it comes to talking about cougars in Monroe, Sterling Heights, and Jackson, that's because there's a difference between believing in Santa Claus and reality. 

The Wildlife Volunteer, isn't that the quarterly newsletter of the MWC? I get it both hard copy and online, I'm not sure why. Certainly have never been a member. But I get a good giggle out of their articles on cougars and the DNR-controversy raises money for organization coffers a lot quicker than tracking migratory butterflies. 

And the mainstream media is always looking for something that will bring viewers to their network...


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## MEL

russfim said:


> :yikes:The Sept/Oct issue of The Wildlife Volunteer has some startling news on the Michigan Cougar topic. Two articles explore more cougar evidence (including a June 2008 Forest Service photo) and an *ABC News* investigative report about the possiblity of *"cougar cover-up"* by wildlife biologists. This is sure to raise some interesting questions and comments to continue this ongoing debate. Why is this causing such a division among outdoorsmen and women?


I knew about the "cougar cover up". The press hasent exactly been on top of this one thats for sure!. Seems as tho that the press has brought up this whole Kwame Kilpatrick text message scandle to cover up the cougar cover up. For some strange reason ABC news is more interested in the Mayors troubles than the cougar cover up. Shows whats important to them!!! Crap, even when i callled ABC news with my first hand reports of a Bigfoot near Alpena, they treated me like i was nuts!!!

Im thinking this whole cougar cover up goes even deeper than most of us think. Right up to Gov. Granholm. My thinking is that she isnt bringing in new jobs(plants) to Michigan so that we dont us the land (cougars natural 
habitat) to build new plants. 

Its also one reason why our gas prices are so high. The oil companys cant drill in Michigan, to avoid destroying the cougars habitat, this in turn causes the price of oil to be just under $4.00 gal. I say send the cougars to Canada and drill in Michigan...we could have $2.00gal. gas again!!!


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## NickAdams

people mock what they fear and dont understand


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## MEL

.....And some people believe in the Bogey Man.


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## NickAdams

You're comparing Michigan cougars to the boogeyman?  You are aware that cougars once thrived in Michigan correct? And yet you're so certain that theres no possible way that a few have survived? Way to approach something objectively with an open mind. 

http://www.miwildlife.org/c_ai_education.asp
http://savethecougar.org/

I'll take the detailed accounts of hundreds of eyewitnesses over a few people who ignorantly write something off with no proof whatsoever.


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## j1musser

MEL said:


> .....And some people believe in the Bogey Man.


 Only if he walks backwards and smells like rotten flesh :yikes:


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## MEL

NickAdams said:


> http://www.miwildlife.org/c_ai_education.asp
> http://savethecougar.org/
> quote]
> 
> WOW!!! After viewing those 2 web sites, again, for about the 20th time.
> I guess its hard not to believe that we have cougars!!! The "Save the Cougar" one is pretty hard not to believe, with all that proof and expert
> sightings. And that MWC site is right on top of things as always. Thank goodness we have these expert, non partial web sites to set us straight.


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## NickAdams

Biologists, ex-DNR workers, and national park employees, yes i'd call them experts on the matter. Much more so than some guy on the internet.


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## NickAdams

and also, like i already said before: "I'll take the detailed accounts of hundreds of eyewitnesses over a few people who ignorantly write something off with no proof whatsoever."


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## MEL

I do remember that article from a year or so ago about the cougar spotted in the east UP. Was seen by a retired DNR biologist and a Sherrif.
The two "expert" both saw the cougar at the same time. Even had a picture of it. Both men swore up and down that in their EXPERT opinions it was a cougar!!! WRONG!!! Picture was proven to be a big Bobcat

Its things like that that add to the negative side of the cougar debate.
When youve been a memeber here for a few years, you'll see a NEW cougar thread every month. Some new guy with 5 or 10 posts will prove
that they do indeed live here in michigan. But as always, the "proof" is false. Happened like 100 times since ive been a memeber. The cougar thread is perhaps the single most common thread subject on MSF.

But in all reality, Just sit back and relax and watch the cougar threads over the next months....you'll see what im talking about. Wish i had the "proof" available to me about the cougar that was spotted in Martin, Mich.
Had the picture and everything

Like i was saying, relax. I and alot of others here WOULD LIKE TO SEE REAL COUGARS IN MICH. Yes, i said that i wish we had them here. Like the Moose and Wolves that have been brought back, it would be one of those nature success storys, like the wolf and Moose.

But, i cant discount the 300 Million+ people (in mich) who have NOT seen one, or found the remains or found its scat, or found real DNA.


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## Linda G.

You sound just like one of the MWC's "cougar trackers"...and maybe the MWC member that found the cougar track not too long ago in Menominee County, I think it was...what ever came of that, I wonder?


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## MEL

NickAdams said:


> and also, like i already said before: "I'll take the detailed accounts of hundreds of eyewitnesses over a few people who ignorantly write something off with no proof whatsoever."


 
Zoologists, DNA experts, Biologists, Professors at universitys, Animal behavioral specialists, Experts of all kinds.....1,000's of them have looked at the "Bigfoot" film footage shot in the 60's....the famous one thats been shown 100's of times in any Bigfoot conversation. Well many of these "experts" believed that to be a real bigfoot. Was proven to be totally false
as the guy who filmed it said it was a fake, just before he died.


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## NickAdams

they believed the "big foot" was a possibility, because they are scientists and by their nature they are open minded and open to any and all possibilities. They do not just write something off without having any proof just because it does not fit their belief system. But this discussion is not about bigfoot and how they are even comparable is beyond me, so let's stick to the topic at hand. 

And Linda if you are referring to Mike Z. who found the cougar tracks in Delta county, perhaps you should do a little research. If you know anything about cats you would know that the tracks Mike found matched to a "T" with a typical cougar's tracks. *Even The local DNR confirmed this, the same DNR that Mike worked for for many years. If you need a refresher, full of sources and pictures check here:
http://www.savethecougar.org/cougartalk/viewtopic.php?t=109&highlight= *

*or here: http://www.dailypress.net/page/content.detail/id/502100.html?nav=5003*

and as for that DNA evidence you are looking for, check my source and you will find this: "In 2004, hair was removed from the bumper of a car that hit a large cat on a road in Menominee County. *DNA tests confirmed the hair was that of a cougar*."

as far as cougar droppings go: "Zuidema claims to have seen cougars in the wild and *sent several examples of droppings to Central Michigan University biologists that have tested as from cougars*" 

Can I ask why you are both so militantly against the thought of Michigan cougars? you have no proof one way or another yet have no problem ridiculing someone who believes in the possibility of cougars in MI? *I for one have no hidden agenda, don't work for any agency, I'm just a proud Michigander who would like to see Michigan retain it's native species. Clearly you both have some sort of fears and/or doubts about cougars that inhibit your ability to look further into the matter. 

I'm also curious about these 300 million MI citizens you speak of...Last time I checked Michigan had roughly 10,000,000 people. That was in 2006 however so maybe the population has had a major increase in the last 2 years :lol:. As for these "300 million+" Michiganders, if you look at the savethecougar website (which i know is just a complete joke ) they get roughly 1 report a day from a person with a possible cougar sighting. If you go through and actually read some of these sightings you will see that many of these people are avid outdoorsmen and women who are familiar with cougars and bobcats, and provide very accurate descriptions of what they see. This does not take in to account the number of sightings that do not get reported by people who do not have internet access, are not aware of the website, etc. As I understand it the DNR still gets several calls a week regarding cougar sightings.

be objective, have an open mind, don't be so ignorant about something you can't possibly be sure of is really what it boils down to.


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## multibeard

Linda 
Being this is the INTERNET maybe he is Dennis Figikowski in disguise.

Dang I remember when Dennis ran an organization that did some real good wetlands restoration work. The SMTA raised a bunch of money for them in those days. I even ran into a picture of Dennis at one of the art auctions the SMTA ran for them in an old newsletter a while ago.


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## Linda G.

Good to hear from you...you could well be right. I think time and nothing but more unproven "reports" and cougar hair and tracks with no cougar to back them up and no cougars or any further information at all and all that sort of thing has proven much more to the people of Michigan than anything. People are much more logical about this sort of thing nowadays than they were 10 years ago, thankfully. Could we venture to hope that people are becoming educated??? 

Nick-For the record, I have no idea who that was. I heard about it in the papers, and it sounded genuine to me, as, for the 3000th time, look up my old posts on this subject, I believe it is VERY possible that there are cougars in the UP. I only became skeptical when I read something that told me the MWC was involved in that discovery in some way. 

Cougars have been documented in northeastern Minnesota...they have very large territories and the males wander most of their lives. So it's completely possible and believable that there are, and have been, cougars passing through the UP. It's only when the MWC, with their track record, gets involved, that I get skeptical. 

Especially when we never hear anything further regarding the incident...nothing at all...

Yes, I know that was genuine cougar hair pulled off that car...again, how'd it get there...do we have documentation, with witnesses, of the entire accident? No...did we ever hear anything further about that incident? No...so we don't have substantiated proof of anything-we have cougar hair on a car bumper. 

I never had a problem with the MWC until they began making allegations and slanderous remarks about the staff of the ENTIRE Michigan DNR, and exhibited very unscientific, temperamental, radical behavior towards anyone who asked them for proof, which all science requires. Then there was the lack of scientific documentation, the questionable evidence, the lack of training of MWC "staff"-(a "naturalist", which their cougar trackers are, is NOT a trained scientist-in fact, talk to a couple of these people and you see behavior that is much more like a brainwashed disciple than a scientific volunteer), and the constant fundraising to "help the cougars"-which got a lot of media attention, at first. And I have no doubt helped pay the bills on the MWC's new (at the time) nature center with it's designer interior. 

But mostly it's been the constant slandering and belittling of the DNR that's made me doubt the MWC. It's not that I am that huge a fan of the DNR, I'm not, as we all know they have plenty of problems and issues, but scientific communities don't treat each other like this, it's not protocol and it's NOT professional. 

In other words, members of the MWC get very angry, very militant, and very defensive when questioned...I've seen it time and time again. And professionals don't behave like that if they want any credibility at all. Reasonable debates, yes, but not out of control, intensely angry fits. 

Now, would you like to discuss the MWC's relationship with Central Michigan University and the biology professor who did the testing for MWC, a relationship that I'm pretty certain is now long over, along with MWC's relationship with the state of Wyoming, who also worked with them at one point? I talked to the professor at CMU at some length for an article I subsequently wrote on the subject. The poor man has regretted ever being involved with the MWC in the first place...and there is still the question of NO PROOF of where the MWC obtained those samples that CMU found to be cougar. 

Would you like to discuss the other, very reputable, cougar organization in this country, and what THEY think (off the record, they're too professional to say anything publicly) about the MWC?

Again, I believe it's very possible there's wild cougars in the UP...but it will take more than unsubstantiated hair samples and tracks to prove it to me. 

I have no problem believing the DNR gets calls and emails about cougar sightings every day...I still get reports of sightings all the time, too. Very common. Lots of big yellow Labs, bobcats and common yellow housecats in this state. Lots of people who have no idea what they're looking at, particularly in the rain, at a distance, at night, or after a few beers.

You still haven't told us who you are...another earmark of MWC Internet trollers. I'm real, I use my real name...who are you?


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## toto

Linda, I agree with your stance 100%. I am open minded enough to believe that "Perhaps" there are cougars in Michigan, I just need better proof than "I heard this from a guy, whose girl friends mothers cousins sister in law saw one". You get my drift.

Living in NW Lower for many years, I talked with quite a few of the rangers in the Sleeping Bear Dunes, and most of them will tell you they've seen them. Well, thats great, but again, not proof. 

As for the MWC, I know nothing about them, but after reading this thread, you can bet I will research them now. This is one of those debates that will only be answered in time, and with definitive proof. What that proof is remains to be seen, it would probably take dead one, and then of course proof of where it died etc. We all need to open minded enough to at least explore the possibility. I've seen tracks near a small lake in the Traverse City area that makes me wonder, but I'm no expert on the matter, so I can only conjecture. Arguing about it, and getting mad about it because someone doesn't believe is no answer at all. Somewhere, sometime, someone, will eventually get the information we need as proof. Until then, be open minded. 

What do you mean Bigfoot is a hoax????:tdo12: BTW, Linda, I think you know who I am.


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## cronn

Ditto toto


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## NickAdams

I'm sorry to hear that you and the MWC don't get along, but i'm not here to defend the MWC as I have said before I am not affiliated with them in any way and don't really know much about them. That being said, why would any group spend so much time and effort conjuring up fake reports, scat, hair, prints, etc.? I'd like to think that people like Mike Z have better things to do. 

Of course some people will never be satisfied until we have a live cougar on video with the Mackinack bridge in the background, talking about the weather in Bark River, and you sound like one of those people. Perhaps it is just a big hoax, and the MWC is importing cougar hair and droppings and strategically planting them meanwhile some guy is running around the woods with cougar-print boots on, and hundreds of eyewitnesses saw dogs, housecats and bobcats in low light in the rain while being drunk and nearsighted. But it's easier for me to believe that Michigan does have a small population of cougars, and that every so often one makes it's way out of the vast michigan wilderness just long enough to leave a slight trace of its existence.

As for my personal information, I never give that out on the internet. I don't see how that would affect your opinion of me anyway, im sure the only way I could prove to you that I am not employed by the MWC is to fax you a copy of my last pay stub from my crappy pizza place job along with my ID, birth certificate and a DNA sample  

If you really want to know who I am send me a PM


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## foxriver6

and for those who enjoy hearing about cougar reports, you can read to heart's content here:
http://www.savethecougar.org/


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