# Fed up with hauling so much salt downstairs...



## JimP (Feb 8, 2002)

There have been several threads about water quality in this Forum.
Mine here, as many others have noted before, in Wellston, is among the worse.

I have a a 20+ year old HAGUE HYDRO CLEAN whole house system, 2 very large tanks, a large salt tank and a smaller pot perm tank.
Everything is on a timer that flushes and cleans late at night.
The previous owner said the system was around $2800 installed, and twice now in 10 years I've had it serviced with valves, resin etc for $600 to $800 by Pure Waterworks out of Traverse City.
Not to mention the costs of the pot perm and seemingly excessive use of salt, having to haul the frequent bags downstairs every couple of weeks.
It's on the bum again, previously it used a #40 bag of salt every 2-3 weeks or so then it quit a month ago, hardly using any at all.
Rust stains are starting to show in the showers and toilet bowls.

Instead of another service call, I'm looking to replace the whole system with something more efficient and hauling less salt in my old age.
Any success stories of solving similar problems, brands/models of units to check out, contractors to recommend here in the northwest area? Traverse/Cadillac/Manistee/Ludington?


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

jimp said:


> There have been several threads about water quality in this Forum.
> Mine here, as many others have noted before, in Wellston, is among the worse.
> 
> I have a a 20+ year old HAGUE HYDRO CLEAN whole house system, 2 very large tanks, a large salt tank and a smaller pot perm tank.
> ...


If you want to avoid salt you will need to look into whole house Reverse Osmosis system, but those aren’t exactly cheap. There are some other salt-free softener systems out there but if you are beyond a couple grains per gallon of hardiness I have read they are worthless. 

Newer softener systems are only more efficient if they are metered to regulate softened water usage, basically metering water consumption and regenerating based on that. Otherwise the newer systems more or less function exactly the same way they did when your system was originally installed. 

You could be due for a media replacement in your media tank (not the thing you put salt in). Newer media are much better at capturing sediment and other minerals in the water. We avoided a sediment filter because the newer media in the tanks does a superior job at filtering it. 

You might want to look into a water company who can deliver salt for you. Culligan will deliver salt to the house for a markup on the bags. $6 to pickup and haul my self or $8 to have them delivered. I am able bodied but it’s something you could look into. My grandma has a company (wolverine water or something similar) that delivers salt to their home. 

FWIW I have been very pleased with culligan. Very friendly, reasonable prices, and great service. 


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## JimP (Feb 8, 2002)

d_rek said:


> If you want to avoid salt you will need to look into whole house Reverse Osmosis system, but those aren’t exactly cheap. There are some other salt-free softener systems out there but if you are beyond a couple grains per gallon of hardiness I have read they are worthless.
> 
> Newer softener systems are only more efficient if they are metered to regulate softened water usage, basically metering water consumption and regenerating based on that. Otherwise the newer systems more or less function exactly the same way they did when your system was originally installed.
> 
> ...


That regeneration based on use is something I'll look into.
This one has no way to change duration between cycles, only time of day.
It runs daily even if we're away.


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## JBooth (Sep 21, 2009)

Reverse Osmosis with Carbon filtration. Will take out 99% of everything you need taken out.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

jimp said:


> That regeneration based on use is something I'll look into.
> This one has no way to change duration between cycles, only time of day.
> It runs daily even if we're away.


Sounds like you could use a new control head, though I’m not sure they retrofit to older systems well. The newer digital heads will allow you to set regeneration cycles for different intervals, time of day, and amount of salt used. The metered or “on demand” control heads just monitor how much water you are using and regenerate based on consumption, though if your softener is undersized it will always use whatever the max it is set at. 

If the company that installed the system is still in business I would give them a call and tell them you want a more efficient system with a digital control head and see if your system is right sized for your household based on estimated consumption and water hardiness. Then ask about the softener/media tank and getting new media. 


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

JBooth said:


> Reverse Osmosis with Carbon filtration. Will take out 99% of everything you need taken out.


Yes it will but a whole house system that uses no salt will be very expensive. They are nice but not affordable for everyone. I was quoted $16k for a whole house RO system. 


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

jim What is the problem with your water. Is it real hard?

Neither of us likes softened water. What we had was discolored nasty tasting water. We ended up putting a system in that does not use salt it takes the color out and along with a carbon filter it is pretty good. I change the filter every couple of months.

The system only back flushes it self every few days at night so I do not know how often it does it. 

Tom


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## JimP (Feb 8, 2002)

multibeard said:


> jim What is the problem with your water. Is it real hard?
> 
> Neither of us likes softened water. What we had was discolored nasty tasting water. We ended up putting a system in that does not use salt it takes the color out and along with a carbon filter it is pretty good. I change the filter every couple of months.
> 
> ...


When the system isn't working properly or when using water direct from the well's outdoor hydrant, it's excessively hard, a lot of greenish/tan discoloration, different odors at different times of the year.
Well is 94' and sometimes has a tannic/leafy odor, during the salmon run it sometimes even smells fishy. I think it's tapped into a backwater of Pine creek 1/2 mile away, or the BM, 4 miles away, LOL.


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## jr9912 (Dec 2, 2008)

FYI Straight RO Water eats copper pipe... Ask me how I know.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

We just had a new well put in last fall and have much better water than our prior well which had a lot of iron and was very hard. We've had a Kinetico softener for 25 years and other then cleaning and adding some new media one time a couple,e years ago it's been trouble free.

Kinetico's system is based on usage, so our salt consumption is way down compared to the Culligan system we had years ago. If your system is recycling every day, you're bound to be using a lot of salt when you likely don't need to.

We bought our system from Ed's Water Softner Service in TC, but he was bought out by Owen's in TC. When we started having some issues with the system a couple years ago, I had them come out for service. They shut the system down, took the media back to the shop to clean and add some new and got it going again. They could have charged me for all new media(which is expensive) and I would have been none the wiser, so from that I give Owens a thumbs up. At that time I bought a new RO system for drinking water from them which we've had for almost two years and are happy with also.

I would at least check on the Kinetico system, we've been very happy with ours.

Incidentally, I called Culligan in TC for service on the Kinetico when it needed it a couple years ago before I called Owens because I had heard that they had taken over Ed's business and Kinetico. (They didn't, Owen's did) A sales guy came out and told me our Kinetico wasn't repairable and proceeded to tell me how much better Culligan's new $3000 system was. Had I not checked with Owen's we would have spent $3000 instead of $400 for service.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I bought and installed one, works perfect for me and a coworker just installed one too.
The Fleck head has a good reputation and easy to get parts. Demand usage type conditioner.

I'd never use RO type, as you only get 1/3 of the water, a big power waister IMO.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004GEFKN8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## bobberbill (Apr 5, 2011)

Our system is a Hague. I had a head motor failure, and with a service call the tech replaced the head with a new one. It regens according to usage. We have very high iron and the system does a great job. I buy my salt at Costco.. 50# for 5 bucks. 2 bags last me about 6 months. There are just 2 of us, so out water usage isn't a lot.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

No walkout I take it.
Me niether and stairs area pain...

Do you have a basement window you could rig a drop through.
Funnel salt through a pipe or section of downspout into a bin below.
Kinda like an old coal bin type delivery.
More volume hauled at one time , then poured/ dumped , and less frequency of salt runs.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

bobberbill said:


> Our system is a Hague. I had a head motor failure, and with a service call the tech replaced the head with a new one. It regens according to usage. We have very high iron and the system does a great job. I buy my salt at Costco.. 50# for 5 bucks. 2 bags last me about 6 months. There are just 2 of us, so out water usage isn't a lot.


On the type of salt you use... 

You should not use the cubes. You should use the granulated salt sometimes called solar salt. The cubes contain stuff other than salt that is bad for your system and they do not dissolve completely in your brine tank and will often clump up. Essentially they make your softener less efficient and could reduce the lifespan of components. 


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## bobberbill (Apr 5, 2011)

I just use the Diamond Crystal yellow bag salt. Been using it for 30 years. Never a problem. Salt is salt.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

I installed a Kenmore water softener 3 years after building my house. It only cost me around $500 and it only uses about 7 bags of salt per year. It regenerates based on usage and works great for a family of 4. Had a water heater element burn out on a 3 year old water heater and the replacement one has lasted 13 years and counting. I can't see spending anymore than that for a softener.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

MossyHorns said:


> I installed a Kenmore water softener 3 years after building my house. It only cost me around $500 and it only uses about 7 bags of salt per year. It regenerates based on usage and works great for a family of 4. Had a water heater element burn out on a 3 year old water heater and the replacement one has lasted 13 years and counting. I can't see spending anymore than that for a softener.


It depends on how hard your water is. The all-in-one kenmore type systems are fine if you don’t have extremely hard water. We are around 80 grains per gallon of hardiness including dissolved salt and iron bacteria. An all-in-one wouldn’t have been able to treat our water effectively enough as the resin tank inside them is too small to handle that kind of hardiness. 

To contrast 2-3 grains per gallon of hardiness is considered “very hard” water. 

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## cliftp (Jan 13, 2007)

Hi JIMP.....we bit the bullet before getting ready for the third softner, and went with this company about 7 years ago now. Uses very little salt and not much to go wrong. Pricey, but so far so good. I figure if it outlasts a few of the other systems, good enough. https://www.kinetico.com

Not sure how it would do on really hard, water with a lot of iron. We are empty nesters now so not as much water use as before, but I can fill up the salt bin maybe every 6 to 9 months, and not even be close to out of salt. 

Happy shopping.

Paul C.


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## JimP (Feb 8, 2002)

For what it's worth for those in the know about such things...
I found the water test when we bought the home in '09.
A lot of Iron and very hard...
May or may not be relevant?


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## hawgeye (Mar 3, 2011)

cliftp said:


> Hi JIMP.....we bit the bullet before getting ready for the third softner, and went with this company about 7 years ago now. Uses very little salt and not much to go wrong. Pricey, but so far so good. I figure if it outlasts a few of the other systems, good enough. https://www.kinetico.com
> 
> Not sure how it would do on really hard, water with a lot of iron. We are empty nesters now so not as much water use as before, but I can fill up the salt bin maybe every 6 to 9 months, and not even be close to out of salt.
> 
> ...


This is what I have, it's 20+ years old and going strong. We have very hard water, many of our neighbors have water tanks because the water is so hard. With the 2 of use we go through about 600 lbs. a year with it. It works great also. Good luck.

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