# Shockwave Kill Results???



## goodworkstractors

So last year and the year before I had essentially identical shots on does. Both quartering slightly towards (right shoulder closest to me), 40 yards, out of a treestand (even the same tree). Anyways, both shots were straight through the front shoulder and into heart and lungs. For all intents and purposes, perfect shots. The only difference is the shot two years ago must have ricocheted off a bone or something because it ended up destroying about every organ in her body and came out darn near her rear hip. 

Long story short, neither had a blood trail for the first thirty yards or so and then started to bleed profusely. I mean an absolute bloodbath. I just had to casually walk along because I could see blood everywhere and figured I'd see a piled up doe five yards in front of me. Both blood trails ended up being over 250 yards long and ended up with dead does. 

My question is what the heck is wrong with these bullets and has anyone else had similar problems with the Shockwave 200 grain load? I've shot 20-25 other deer with rifles and shotguns and when I hit one in the wheel house they never go this far, not even close. Maybe it's just me, but I fully expect to see these deer dropping within 100 yards or at least being able to hear them drop and thrash around. I understand deer are extremely tough animals, but the only times I've had this happen is with this specific load so it's making me wonder.

I'm looking to change loads and looking for recommendations. I want a saboted bullet and would like to consider something for longer range shooting, 150 yards plus. Any help is appreciated.


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## DEDGOOSE

The girlfriend and I shot SSTs a few years back which is the same bullet. She shot a doe and had it go 50 yards with awesome blood on snow and it was stone cold dead. 

I shot one a few weeks later with an Encore and watched the deer pile 50 yards from where i Shot it. No blood, good thing I watched it die. Switched bullets last year, but than switched back this year due to the unbeliavable accuracy of the these bullets.


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## goodworkstractors

I will admit, they are extremely accurate, however I just haven't been impressed with the distance the animals have traveled. I'm stuck using them again this year because I haven't had time or money to try out different loads. Perhaps, this year will be different. We shall see.


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## soggybtmboys

I don't know what is wrong with them. I have found now on three occasions that closer ranges the jacket was separating from the core. The doe my brother shot last year almost dropped in its tracks, but he found the copper jacket lying in the snow next to the doe, lead core was gone.

I shot a small buck a couple of years ago, hit him right on the point of the shoulder, figured it would drop him in his tracks. This shot was about 60 yards...same thing. The jacket separated from the core and ended up tracking this deer 300 yards till we called it quits. Went back the next day and found what was left of him (coyotes), it had gone another hundred yards. The track was just spitting blood here and there.

I had thought about switching up, but then I go ahead and make some spectacular shots with them and kill deer quickly at longer ranges. It has seemed to us that at closer ranges they do not perform as well as other bullets, but at longer ranges is where they shine. I wanted to try the SST, but as previous poster pointed out, they are pretty much the same bullet.

I am gonna shoot them again this year, but if similar problems show up again with close range animals, I will be shopping for a new round next season.


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## bucko12pt

I killed bucks the last two years in Illinois with 300 grain SST's. One was 250 plus yards that was heart shot and went about 30 yards. The other was about 
40 yards and dropped immediately. Both were over 200# field dressed. 

Have'nt had any problem at all with them, but I'll pay 
closer attention. I agree that they are extremely 
acccurate.


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## jayzbird

Shot a doe this year in EAS with a 250 gr. Shockwave behind 100 grains of Blackhorn 209. I ranged her at 143 yards before I pulled the trigger. Hit her in the shoulder broadside and she dropped right on the spot. The bullet penetrated the shoulder and exited the other shoulder. Couldn't ask for any better. Shot a doe during muzzleloader season last year with the same load near 100 yards, behind the shoulder exited behind the far shoulder. The doe expired after about a 50 yard run with a blood trail Ray Charles himself could follow. And they are super accurate to boot....Wouldn't think about changing to a different bullet!!


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## DEDGOOSE

soggybtmboys said:


> I wanted to try the SST, but as previous poster pointed out, they are pretty much the same bullet.
> 
> /QUOTE]Same bullet different color ballistic tip:sad:


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## thill

Don't know what to tell ya. I switched to shockwaves from powerbelts last year, and couldn't be happier. Only shot 2 deer so far with the shockwaves, one dropped after 30 yards, the other took 60 yards to expire. 

Great results so far.


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## goodworkstractors

Looks like at least some of you made shots at longer distances....80 yards +. Both my shots have been at 40 yards, fairly close range. Could that have anything to do with the results I've had?


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## ENCORE

The Shockwave is a very accurate bullet but....... I've found them to certainly not be perfect. Unfortunately I've had one very bad expierence with them and lost a monster buck, with a well placed shot. It was muzz season, 80 yds, slightly quartering away. Problem was, millions of other deer tracks in the snow, very little blood.

For some reason, of which I have no clue why...... I can't get a picture posted from the gallery. Everything wants to be .html for some reason. Anyway, if you check my photos, you'll find what some of the rocovered bullets that I've found look like.
I recovered the 250gr Shockwave bullets that I shot at my range and found that 50% of them weren't expanding what so ever. It just pushed the plastic tip back into the bullet with no expansion. The other 50% expanded and one lost its jacket.

To many of us look for just accuracy/consistency but few actually recover bullets and try to determine what happens after the bullet hits. Because of the previous mentioned, I've switched back to the Barnes 250gr TMZ bullet.


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## clackercraft

I shot the shockwaves for one season. Shot the biggest buck of my life at 60 yards. Strange thing happened. A limb that was big around as a pool que was shot in two and laying in the tracks where the deer was standing. After lookin garound I found that the limb came from 10' above the deer. I followed the tracks and found two very small drops of blood and that was it. Never found the deer.

Also shot a doe later in the season, double lung, that went over 100 yards with almost no blood at all. Followed the tracks and found the deer, luckly.

Also had a friend who was shooting them and he two shot a very nice buck. Spent the entire day looking for it. No blood at all. We ended up finding it on our walk back to the truck just by dump luck.

The doe I shot and the buck he shot both had very small exits. I would guess that the bullets were not expanding at all, just punching a small hole trough them. 

Needless to say I switched back to my old stand by of a lead hollow point with coppper jacket and I'm back to dropping them in there tracks.


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## kbb3358

I hear that powerbelts do the same as you are discussing with the shockwaves. I have shot a couple elk and deer with solid hollow point bullets. I never had to track any of them not that all of them fell over dead but they didn't go too far. But with the magnum ML they recommend a jacket bullet with sabot. Those seem to be very accurate but if they don't perform when hitting flesh and bones then why would they recommend them. I have shot both powerbelts and shockwaves in my Traditions Evolution and both hit almost the same place at 100 yards. There has to be a bullet that is both accurate and provides the performance of a solid.


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## bad400man

i had the same problems with the shockwaves, after doing some digging on the net other people had the same problem so i switched to the Hornady XTP which people seem to love and are WAY cheeper to shoot so with any luck i can post my results with the 240gr XTP.


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## Knight

No problems here. I use the 300 grain bonded shockwaves. 4 shots, 4 dead deer. All shots were through both lungs. Lungs were liquefied. Could put a broom handle through the wounds. Massive blood for anywhere from 20-50 yards. No shoulder shots for me.


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## jmoser

I use the 300 gr SST / Shockwave [around 1800 fps with 130 gr Pyrodex.]

IMHO you don't need any expansion with a .452" dia bullet that goes thru and thru.

I have shot 2 does with the SST and one dropped on the exact spot [thru 'floating' shoulder blade], the other made it a few feet while thrashing around [neck shot.]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. 

If you aim just in front of the leg and about 50% - 60% up [broadside] there is a CNS hotspot that just about guarantees immediate poleaxing. Neck shots are a bit more challenging but also a fantastic way to eliminate any need for tracking.

FYI longest trail I ever had to chase was a small doe that made it 200 yards after a double lung shot with a soft nose 45-70. Huge blood trail but it just don't drop 'em that way . . .

For 'normal' shots at 100 yards or less I am a firm believer in heavy bullets and moderate velocities.


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## BallsRdragn

250gr shockwave, 100gr Triple 7 pellets 
CVA .50cal Optima Pro Thumb hole
Had gun for 2 years now

#1 Doe = 60yard shot in cage 60 yard dead run.
#2 Buck = 160yards shot in shoulder dead run 75 yards
#3 Buck = 75yards neck shot drop'd right in tracks
#4 ???? = Will let you know after this season. LOL.


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## jmoser

BallsRdragn said:


> 250gr shockwave, 100gr Triple 7 pellets
> CVA .50cal Optima Pro Thumb hole
> Had gun for 2 years now
> 
> #1 Doe = 60yard shot in cage 60 yard dead run.
> #2 Buck = 160yards shot in shoulder dead run 75 yards
> *#3 Buck = 75yards neck shot drop'd right in tracks*


Imagine that!


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## SPH

I have used XTP's in the past and found that they do not leave a great blood trail either. My understanding of the XTP's is they are a magnum bullet and do not expand well unless you are shooting 150grns of powder which I was not at the time. I have messed around with every powder and bullet out there and I believe the XTP's are the most accurate out of my gun but the Barnes Spitfires by far had the best expansion for good blood trails. I have yet to find a load that gets great expansion with good accuracy all wrapped up into one. I have decided to stick with accuracy and rely on my superior tracking ability(just kidding).



bad400man said:


> i had the same problems with the shockwaves, after doing some digging on the net other people had the same problem so i switched to the Hornady XTP which people seem to love and are WAY cheeper to shoot so with any luck i can post my results with the 240gr XTP.


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## jmoser

XTPs are available in standard and magnum designations to account for the thicker jacket used at MZ velocities vs handgun loadings.

Look for the XTP Mag for MZ use - Hornady sells these in saboted packs or you can buy loose bullets in bulk box.


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## salmon_slayer06

These bullets are very accuarate same as SST's. But I too believe if these bullets could mushroom or expand better I think it would be the unltimate ML bullet. I will be using the Barnes 250 Expander MZ's with MMP High Pressure sabots.


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## Swamp Monster

jmoser said:


> XTPs are available in standard and magnum designations to account for the thicker jacket used at MZ velocities vs handgun loadings.
> 
> Look for the XTP Mag for MZ use - Hornady sells these in saboted packs or you can buy loose bullets in bulk box.


And their performance on game is excellent!! If they shoot well in your gun, they are hard to beat. My Rem 700 MLS love them. In my Encore, I shoot the 300 grain Barnes TMZ...very accurate and nothing is better on game than a properly placed Barnes.


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## nategyoder

I have not done very much messing around with different powders or bullets and have not taken a deer with my muzzle loader yet. I am shooting 250 grain bonded shockwaves and 150 gr 777 pellets. They seem to be pretty accurate. I have wondered if I dropped down to 100 gr 777 if I would have tighter groups and if a non bonded shockwaves would be more appropriate for whitetail?


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## jmoser

nategyoder said:


> I have not done very much messing around with different powders or bullets and have not taken a deer with my muzzle loader yet. I am shooting 250 grain bonded shockwaves and 150 gr 777 pellets. They seem to be pretty accurate. I have wondered if I dropped down to 100 gr 777 if I would have tighter groups and if a non bonded shockwaves would be more appropriate for whitetail?


Never know about groups but you certainly do not need 150 gr and I doubt the bonded bullet gains you anything on deer.

Try the 100 gr first - the non-bonded should shoot about the same groups.


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## goodworkstractors

Should I be looking at stepping it up to a 250 or 300 grain from the 200 gr I'm using now? Seems like somewhere in that range is what most of you are shooting. I've also heard that a little heavier bullet will actually be more accurate at longer distances since the weight will help with stabilization downrange. May or may not be true, but read that in a hunting magazine.

Your thoughts?


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## DEDGOOSE

nategyoder said:


> I have not done very much messing around with different powders or bullets and have not taken a deer with my muzzle loader yet. I am shooting 250 grain bonded shockwaves and 150 gr 777 pellets. They seem to be pretty accurate. I have wondered if I dropped down to 100 gr 777 if I would have tighter groups and if a non bonded shockwaves would be more appropriate for whitetail?


I have always had better luck with 100g vs 150... Not saying this is always the case, just what I have experienced.


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## fightem

It is not the bullet it is the delivery of the bullet. You said it was slightly quartering to you? Well if you shoot a deer like that, all the blood will collect inside the deer and not drain out very much. Just think, you went through a lot of tissue and no major artery . You didn`t mention on how much blood you found inside the deer.Was there lots inside? I am thinking yes there was. I shot a very small deer once just like that with a 50 cal. ML . No blood on the trail. It ran about a hundred yards and when I found it piled up,blood was 6 feet high on the trees from it flopping around. I also hit many deer with high power rifles at a close range and no hardly any blood on the trail because fat had plugged the holes. If the bullet you mentioned went completely through the deer then it wasn`t the bullet it was the trajectory of the bullet. I can`t wait to try the shock waves .They must be a hundred percent better than power belts mainly for the accuracy. Those power belts are a waste of money not to mention a waste of animals that have been wounded by them.


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## MI.sabot

I have mixed emotions regarding the shockwaves.

I had been shooting the 250 gr easy glides over 85 gr of loose 777 using the 25ACp ignition.
Accuracy was outstanding!

Now within our hunting group over the last 2 years, 7 deer have been taken with 7 shots all using the 250 gr. easy glides. Can't complain with the success ratio. 6 of the 7 have been bang flops. Again not a bad ratio.

But the 2 kills that I have personally been involved with haven't convinved me that this is the bullet I will stick with.

Case 1: I was in the blind with my son 2 yrs ago and he decided to take a relatively small doe at a relatively close range. I was ok with this as it was going to be the first deer he was attempting to harvest. A perfectly placed shot behind the shoulder resulted in a relatively long tracking job. Fortunately there was snow on the ground to follow what I would considered to be a very very light blood trail.

Case 2: Last year I bang flopped a nice doe standing broadside at 130 yds. Entrance wound in the front shoulder, exit wound near the rear on the opposite side. Bullet ran right thru the tenderloins. Hmmmm? Could she have started to turn as I squeezed the trigger, possibly, but I really don't think that was the case.

I really can't argue with the end results but I will be taking to the woods this year with some Barnes T-EZ's.


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## ENCORE

Whit1 told me what I was doing wrong posting pics.... Thanks Whit1!

I always try to recover bullets if possible. The Shockwaves were fired on the range. I've been unable to recover one after taking a deer. Both the Barnes bullets were recovered after pass thru shots from the farm field. The XTP bullet was recovered from the opposit shoulder, just under the hide, of a deer that a hunting partner shot at 140yds with a Kodiak Magnum.


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## Mathews_Archer84

i use 250 gr shockwaves, shot a doe last year, 60 yards,heart shot, went from standing to the deep sleep,no tracking involved, dead where she stood.


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## Deercamp

It's all about shot placement. Heart or double lung and the deer is going down within 100 yards or less. Hit the liver etc. don't expect the deer to have a canon hole and drop in its tracks.


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## soggybtmboys

Deercamp said:


> It's all about shot placement. Heart or double lung and the deer is going down within 100 yards or less. Hit the liver etc. don't expect the deer to have a canon hole and drop in its tracks.


 
We are speaking in terms of bullet performance. When a deer is shot in the brachial plexus region, it should drop like a stone. It seems that alot are finding the smae things with these particular bullets. Jacket and core separation, the bullet failing to expand and blowing thru the animal. When it comes to shooting a firearm, whether or not it is a ml, bullets that do not deliver their energy by means of hydrostatic shock/ trauma........are less than desireable. Archers rely upon taking game cleanly by massive hemmoraging.

Shot placement is key I agree, however, this discussion is distinctly about the failings of these particular bullets. I for one am glad we are having this discussion, it is bringing light to a problem with a particular make of bullet. 

Thanks for the photos, I will be taking a serious look at the Barnes bullets before ML season.


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## GuppyII

Try this: google, dougs message board, then go to smokless inline muzzleloading and then tips and hints. There are several tests on these and other bullets in both gelatin and wet news paper. Some great info give it a look.


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## ziffle

just posted some video under 2008 michigan bucks love shockwaves


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## Rustyaxecamp

I saw Federal Fusions on the shelf last night when I picked up some Shockwaves.

Looks like they are just like the ones loaded for 44 mag. Kind of a half hollowpoint/shallow design. Should work well, wheter it expands or not....

May try those next year. Not quite as aerodynamic, but at 75 yards, it doesn't have to be....


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## ENCORE

soggybtmboys said:


> ...........Shot placement is key I agree, however, this discussion is distinctly about the failings of these particular bullets. I for one am glad we are having this discussion, it is bringing light to a problem with a particular make of bullet.
> 
> Thanks for the photos, I will be taking a serious look at the Barnes bullets before ML season.


You're welcome with the photos....

I was thinking the same thing from the original post/questions. I've taken deer with round balls and just about every other bullet you can jam down a muzz. Heck, back in the day I've shot them using two balls, after forgetting that I'd already loaded one!  I've shot them with Shockwaves and knocked the snot right out of them. On the other hand, I've had some that I was lucky to recover. Also unlucky enough to not recover a trophy with excellent shot placement because of lack of blood.
I think that we can all agree that shot placement is critical but, is it always perfect and does the bullet that we shoot ALWAYS do what its designed to do? This last part of the question is what we should be investigating. Not discussing rather "I shot one with that bullet and it fell right there". Just because another hunter or hunters have had bullet failures, we shouldn't immediately be judgemental of his/her shot or shooting ability. (not suggesting that anyone did)
That said, should we be shooting a bullet that only works properly when the shot placement is absolutely perfect? Or, should we be shooting a bullet that will perform better under less than perfect shot placement?

Personally, of the recovered bullets (muzz) that I've been fortunate to find (which tells the story), I've found failures/short comings of some kind with all but two of them. One being the Barnes bullets, the other being the Hornady XTP.


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## goodworkstractors

Anyone know if Remington makes a core-lokt bullet for .50 cal ML's? I definitely know those work out of my 7mm rem mag! Expansion on them is great, doesn't really matter the shot. I've taken 8 total antelope and muley's out west with the 150 grain corelokt and they are devastating. I'm aware of the differences between ML's and rifles, but just curious if Remington offers it. 

I would think that a quartering to shot, hitting them solid through the front shoulder (with the shockwave) would slow the bullet down, allow for proper expansion, and expend most, if not all, of the energy in the animal. Unfortunately, that didn't happen with either of the does I shot (see my original post) which is why I'm trying to find another bullet to use. I spoke with a couple other people locally and they both use the SST's and haven't had problems with expansion. Along with a couple positive comments on them in this thread. Maybe after this year, it'll be time to give them a try.


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## MI.sabot

This is at least the 3rd forum I've visited where there's been a thread devoted _entirely_ to shockwave *FIELD *performance. Other than PowerBelts, I just don't see negative comments or concerns on any bullets other than these two. (_I tried to attach the links to these other forums and threads but I, a relatively new poster, don't have enough posts to attach links as of yet)_. 

I'd say, even here at MSF, for every few positive shockwave comments there's one that has a concern, not necessarily a negative comment but a concern nonetheless. From my previous post, I can tell you that the other two guys in my group would never consider using or even trying anything but a shockwave. If accuracy were the only issue, I wouldn't try anything else either. They are an amazingly accurate bullet. But it seems that field performance is what has raised a few eyebrows.

I have recently found a Barnes load that will match the shockwaves on paper and that's what I'll be taking afield.
Can't say I've read a thread questioning the performance of Barnes bullets and I don't anticipate that I will be starting one after the season is over.


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## bersh

I took a 2.5 yr. 5 pt a few years ago on the last night of ML season at 5:05 pm (talk about cutting it close) using the 250 grn. shockwave over 100 grn. of pyrodex, gun was a T/C Black Diamond. The buck was about 75 yards, and though I hit a bit low due to a goofy shooting position (long story) it was still a heart shot. He went maybe 75 yards before dying mid-stride and sliding to a stop in the snow. I clipped the near elbow, busted through ribs, and went through the opposite shoulder and lodged under the hide on the far side. I can't complain as it was a dead deer, but I wasn't all that impressed with them. Not a lot of expansion, and it's missing a good chunk. I've recovered a few at the range, as well as a few of the XTP, and the XTP are always a perfect mushroom, vs. varies result with the shockwave. I am still shooting them as they are very accurate, and I bought a boatload of them at Wally on clearance. If I shot the ML more, I'd probably go back to the XTP, but considering the gun is set up to shoot the shockwave, and the little use it gets, I'll live with them for now.


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## MI.sabot

*cscott711 wrote*:


> I spoke with a couple other people locally and they both use the SST's and haven't had problems with expansion. Along with a couple positive comments on them in this thread. Maybe after this year, it'll be time to give them a try.


*SHOCKWAVES AND SST's ARE THE SAME BULLET!*

QUESTION: there is a BONDED version of shockwaves.
Are you possibly shooting these in 200 gr.?
Might explain non-expansion issues.


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## ENCORE

bersh said:


> I took a 2.5 yr. 5 pt a few years ago on the last night of ML season at 5:05 pm (talk about cutting it close) using the 250 grn. shockwave over 100 grn. of pyrodex, gun was a T/C Black Diamond. The buck was about 75 yards, and though I hit a bit low due to a goofy shooting position (long story) it was still a heart shot. He went maybe 75 yards before dying mid-stride and sliding to a stop in the snow. I clipped the near elbow, busted through ribs, and went through the opposite shoulder and lodged under the hide on the far side. I can't complain as it was a dead deer, but I wasn't all that impressed with them. Not a lot of expansion, and it's missing a good chunk. I've recovered a few at the range, as well as a few of the XTP, and the XTP are always a perfect mushroom, vs. varies result with the shockwave. I am still shooting them as they are very accurate, and I bought a boatload of them at Wally on clearance. If I shot the ML more, I'd probably go back to the XTP, but considering the gun is set up to shoot the shockwave, and the little use it gets, I'll live with them for now.


*Thanks for sharing that picture!!!* That is the first Shockwave that I've seen recovered after shooting a deer. Boy, I've sure tried to find them.
Other than jacket seperation and the loss of a piece, looks almost like a solid.


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## BallsRdragn

BallsRdragn said:


> 250gr shockwave, 100gr Triple 7 pellets
> CVA .50cal Optima Pro Thumb hole
> Had gun for 2 years now
> 
> #1 Doe = 60yard shot in cage 60 yard dead run.
> #2 Buck = 160yards shot in shoulder dead run 75 yards
> #3 Buck = 75yards neck shot drop'd right in tracks
> #4 ???? = Will let you know after this season. LOL.


I forgot about this post. #4= Buck 100yrds shot just behind shoulder 
 broadside. Dropped and got back up 1 
minute later managed to go 50yards.


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## ENCORE

Here's some pictures of a couple of the bullets that we shot yesterday. I hate to admit it, but the one on the extreme left is a Powerbelt:sad: However, the Powerbelt was dug out a foot below the others

The rest of the bullets are Shockwaves. Notice the one on the far right. What happened here????










Same bullets, just turned over....


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## Quack Addict

Encore - looks like with some minor Dremel work, that projectile on the far right could be made to fly another day.

I have only shot one deer with my ML and that was about a 40 yard shot with a 300gr 44cal XTP atop 100gr of Pyrodex RS and lit by a musket cap. 

The wound channel passed across the top of her heart. Entrance and exit were approximately the same size; bullet was not recovered. There was blood / hair at the impact site and 'tracking' blood between Point A (impact site) and the 50 yards she made before reaching Point B. The tracking blood was not needed in this case but it gives me some confidence in using this load chain going forward.


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## Tom Morang

I use 200 gr shockwaves over 110 grns of BH209. Have used this load for the last 2 seasons and have taken over 8 does without any issues. If you want a good blood trail you may want to take broadside shots aiming for the lower third of the lung/heart area. This will most likely allow for an almost instant blood trail as opposed to a higher lung hit that must fill the chest with blood before a good amount of blood can exit the cavity.


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## ENCORE

The bullet on the far right in the pictures above, is a Shockwave 200gr, shot with 100grs of T7.


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## glockman55

Maybe we expect too much from a black powder rifle. It's not like your getting 2800 fps out of these primitive weapons. I think it is more in the shot placement than the Bullet.


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## goodworkstractors

glockman55 said:


> Maybe we expect too much from a black powder rifle. It's not like your getting 2800 fps out of these primitive weapons. I think it is more in the shot placement than the Bullet.


I think this thread would prove otherwise and that this bullet is flawed. It obviously does expand part of the time, while expansion is next to nothing at other times. While I don't know what causes this problem, I do feel that this must be some sort of design flaw. 

To me, it's not just about killing the deer, which these bullets will do, but doing so as quickly and mercifully as possible. I do believe I'm going to go with a heavier bullet and a little bit less powder. I'll be sacrificing distance, but I hope to retain accuracy out to 100-125 yds and pack some more punch at impact.


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## ENCORE

glockman55 said:


> Maybe we expect too much from a black powder rifle. It's not like your getting 2800 fps out of these primitive weapons. I think it is more in the shot placement than the Bullet.


No doubt about shot placement. You're right about not getting 2800fps too. However, velocities can run 1900fps and much higher for a "smoke pole" and the manufacturers of bullets spend a lot of money trying to develop a bullet that's specific.
I believe that there are some shooters that actually do expect too much from their rifles but, it usually has to do more with its capable range. Some shooters I think are trying to strech it just a little too far.

On the other hand.... I must admit that I'm pretty demanding of my firearms when it comes to accuracy, load, consistency and bullet performance. When I find a potential flaw in what I'm shooting, I try my best to find out why and either correct it or, replace it. One good thing about M-S, no matter how long you been shooting, you can still learn from some of the other posters!
Just wish I could do something about these ageing eyes and body


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## glockman55

Oh I agree that the Bullet manufacturers should have tested these ML bullets to make sure they perform as they advertise. I too use a 300 gr. Shock Wave with 130 gr. powder load, and have dug my bullets out of the sand behind my targets, but have yet to find one that has not mushroomed out. I did go with the heavier bullet because I was not satisfied with the lighter 240 gr hornady hollow point I was using, I had too many Deer travel way to far after a good lung shot. I have had better luck with the 300's so far. When someone finds the perfect bullet let me know.


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## MI.sabot

*Looks like the start of another Shockwave debate here:*

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=14690


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## MI.sabot

My apologies if you're unable access the link above.
You first need to register to the sight (which for a muzzleloader enthusiast isn't a bad thing).
If you care to follow the thread, please register and it then appears in the Inline Muzzleloading sub-forum.


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## motoman3b

ENCORE said:


> Here's some pictures of a couple of the bullets that we shot yesterday. I hate to admit it, but the one on the extreme left is a Powerbelt:sad: However, the Powerbelt was dug out a foot below the others
> 
> The rest of the bullets are Shockwaves. Notice the one on the far right. What happened here????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same bullets, just turned over....


About what I found in some of the deer I tracked (or couldnt because there was no blood) and dug the bullet out of them... usually just found the thin outer copper plating and no lead and no exit wound! Emailed hornady to find out if theres been improvements with the new FTX ballistic tip bullets they sell for reloading a colt 45 but from the sounds of it just the tip is different so I wont be trying those either! Love the accuracy but not the performance on deer so guess its the little more expensive barnes for now!


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## Quack Addict

ENCORE said:


> The bullet on the far right in the pictures above, is a Shockwave 200gr, shot with 100grs of T7.


If I wouldn't have seen your picture I would not have believed that the jacket could deform like that with the polymer tip coming away unscathed. 




glockman55 said:


> Oh I agree that the Bullet manufacturers should have tested these ML bullets to make sure they perform as they advertise.


IMHO, a bullet that looks "cool", has a catchy name and a colorful polymer tip doesn't need testing, true on-game performance or advertising to sell. Throw a few dollars at a "pro staff" to endorse the product and let out a few trophy pictures claiming to have used the product and voila.

Not to name names but there have been a smattering of projectiles put out by well-known manufacturers over the years and plugged as "big game" hunting bullets when those projectiles had little business going beyond varmit hunting and target shooting realms. 

Trouble with doing real testing is that in order to have something to test (i.e. bullets to shoot), there is hefty investment up front in terms of engineering, design, development and tooling. By the time the manufacturer has shelled out the coin, most could care less about performance because they don't get any return on investment until after they have released and sold product. Once the product has established itself in the marketplace as a money maker, the wall of "if it ain't broke..." pops up (because the product is still making money, it obviously isn't broke).

One added factor is that a manufacturer could have an excellent bullet design that works awesome in all facets, but if they let their quality control slide, that excellent design becomes as effective and repeatable as shooting a random stone.


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## ENCORE

To be honest, I should have noticed and corrected my problem long before now. Brain fart I guess.

I believe it was Swamp Monster  got me back on track again, very politely I might add  in one of my other posts. Personally, I have no clue why I quit using Barnes bullets when I had had such great luck with them in the past. I probably got caught up in the hype of the "new and improved" muzzleloader bullet advertisements when I purchased my first box of Shockwaves.

They are very accurate indeed but, the results that I have expierenced tell me that they can be unreliable at times. The Barnes TMZ bullets will and are just as accurate in my rifle and I know how reliable they are. I've never heard of any Barnes bullet failure.

There's one thing about M-S, there's a world of information out there. Once you learn to use it, its very valuable. You just have to sort it out.


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## Rustyaxecamp

It is the same as the SST Hornady loads for shotguns. Everyone loves them. 

I hope to drill a deer with my shockwaves yet this year, to form my own opinion.

http://www.gunhuntermag.com/Article.../ArticleView/articleId/164/Shock-and-Awe.aspx


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## Rustyaxecamp

ENCORE said:


> I've never heard of any Barnes bullet failure.
> 
> There's one thing about M-S, there's a world of information out there. Once you learn to use it, its very valuable. You just have to sort it out.


Keep looking, there is plenty of talk on Barnes failures.

But, like you said, sorting the BS from reality gets tough sometimes.....


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## DEDGOOSE

I was discussing this thread tonight with a buddy whom has killed more than his fair of deer. He said hey, I recovered a shockwave a couple a years ago from a doe. He said the shot was forty yards, he went looking for blood, no blood in the snow. At sixty yards it ran into a tree and opened up... He found this bullet in the opposite side of the skin after passing through both lungs on a broadside shot. He said the body contained fragments of lead throughout. 

To me this bullet shows the core and jacket separation as talked about in this thread. 

Makes we wanna quick run to jays and pick up some Knight tipped TMZs


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## RyanV

RustyAxe is right, when it comes to substantiated and unsubstantiated internet reports of rifle bullets not opening in big game, barnes leads the field.

Ryan


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## woodie slayer

i shoot 200 grain shock waves maimly because they are so accurate.all 3 deer i have killed with sock wave were neck shot an dropped in there tracks...
but i would like to say that over the last 40 years i have killed many many white tails with black powder an round ball (no expansion)so that tells me that shot placement is important.shoot for the neck or lower 1/3 of the deer for heat and lung.u will get blood trail immeditly


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## melvvin

Shot a buck this morning with my muzzleloader at 60 yards using the SST bullet. He went about 30 yards and fell down and tore up the ground then got back up went about 20 more yards and stayed down for good. All the way from where I shot him to where he died not a drop of blood not even where he went down the first time. My shot was right thru the front shoulders basically perfect. When I opened him up blood just poured out of him. One lung was pretty much destroyed and about a quarter of the heart was too. I'm not excited about this performance but these bullets are so accurate I don't really want to switch you can get an awesome group at 70 yards with these bullets.


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## bigsablemike

soggybtmboys said:


> I don't know what is wrong with them. I have found now on three occasions that closer ranges the jacket was separating from the core. The doe my brother shot last year almost dropped in its tracks, but he found the copper jacket lying in the snow next to the doe, lead core was gone.
> 
> I shot a small buck a couple of years ago, hit him right on the point of the shoulder, figured it would drop him in his tracks. This shot was about 60 yards...same thing. The jacket separated from the core and ended up tracking this deer 300 yards till we called it quits. Went back the next day and found what was left of him (coyotes), it had gone another hundred yards. The track was just spitting blood here and there.
> 
> I had thought about switching up, but then I go ahead and make some spectacular shots with them and kill deer quickly at longer ranges. It has seemed to us that at closer ranges they do not perform as well as other bullets, but at longer ranges is where they shine. I wanted to try the SST, but as previous poster pointed out, they are pretty much the same bullet.
> 
> I am gonna shoot them again this year, but if similar problems show up again with close range animals, I will be shopping for a new round next season.


 
hornady


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## CMR

Just shot a doe this evening with a 250gr Shockwave. 
Blew right thru her, taking out both lungs. She circled back around the way she came and fell 5ft from where I shot her.


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## Tom Morang

Took a doe this Sunday using a shockwave 200 gr. Double lunged her at 55 yards. She went 35 yards leaving a great blood trail.


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## Skinner 2

I ahev no idea how many deer I ahev taken with SST's or XTP's. I have had great performance from both and good or great blood trails from both. I have never recovered a SST and have never found any fragments or jackets from one. I went to the SST over the XTP's because they were a tad more accurate. I only shoot the 300 grain though.

I shot a doe Saturday evening at 65 yards. Pass through both lungs. She cover about 60 yards on a flat run with some very long strides. I had blood form where she stood to where she layed. Here is something else I did notice from the weather conditions Saturday and past experiance. In the very fluffy snow most of the bigger drops of blood pass the top snow layer and leave nothing visiable except tiny holes in the snow. If you step on them them the blood will appear from underneath.

Even with much blood hid under the snow she was still easy to track down. There was more the enough left on the trees, weeds, and other things sticking up. even following the "holes" was easy. The fine mist of the lung hit was 3 foot wide and layed on top of the snow.

I have yet to have a deer that did not leave a trail either with SST's or XPT's. Most are down within 50 to 75 yards...or less.

Skinner


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## Swamp Monster

Barnes 290 TMZ scored again sat night on a doe at about 70 yards. Nice golf ball size exit after liquifing both lungs. She did the slow "oh that hurt" trot for about 10 yards before falling over. They work everytime I pull the trigger, regardless of weapon be it my Encore, 12 guage, or my .270 or .308. Zero failures with a Barnes and I doubt I'll ever see one. Nothing I trust more in the field.


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## Rustyaxecamp

Swamp Monster said:


> They work everytime I pull the trigger, regardless of weapon be it my Encore, 12 guage, or my .270 or .308. Zero failures with a Barnes and I doubt I'll ever see one. Nothing I trust more in the field.


Glad they work for you. Seems folks love them or hate them. I've never tried a Barnes bullet on game, maybe next year....

I'm kind of old fashioned about that stuff, don't like to try new stuff if I know what I've been doing works.


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## Swamp Monster

Rustyaxecamp said:


> Glad they work for you. Seems folks love them or hate them. I've never tried a Barnes bullet on game, maybe next year....
> 
> I'm kind of old fashioned about that stuff, don't like to try new stuff if I know what I've been doing works.


My buddy uses the the 250 grain .35 Barnes X in his .35 Whelen with incredible results. After seeing his success, I made the switch and haven't looked back. I do use others as well in my rifles, like Hornady (hard to beat for a cost/performance value bullet) but the Barnes have been 100% successfull for me. 

Sometimes the "if it works, don't fix it" mentality ain't all that bad either.


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## BallsRdragn

This happen to my dad with his 12 gauge Hornady. 125yard shoulder shot knocked him down and the buck got back up and ran. He also found the copper jacket there where the deer went down. Hardly any blood and could not find it.[/QUOTE] MMMmmmmm.......


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## Rustyaxecamp

Swamp Monster said:


> Sometimes the "if it works, don't fix it" mentality ain't all that bad either.


true, but it makes me start wondering when I read all the mags and forums about the "new" stuff....... You know, just to try it out.....


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## xraps

I have been reloading rifle shells for about 25 years, different calibers, different load combinations, and many different bullets. The old gentleman that taught me how to reload was very good at it. He explained to me that while choosing a bullet for hunting, there are several things to consider. jacket density for the size animal for which you will be hunting. The best example I can give you on that is for my .270 a 130 gr. bullet is best for deer sized game. For Elk, I use 150, for small game like yotes I shoot 110. Normally the heavier the bullet for a specific caliber the heavier the jacket. I shoot 130 grain nosler ballistic tips for deer. !50 gr. nosler partions for elk, and 110 sierra pro hunters for smaller game. The second thing is I want my bullet to expend almost all of it's energy inside the animal. Another words I just want the bullet to barely pass through the animal. Third, Shot placement, I don't generally ever try to put an animal down on the spot. I usally always go for the boiler room. I don't think the 130 gr. ballistic tips would perform very well on a high should hit. Which now brings me to the subject of muzzle loader bullets. I have only been shooting a muzzleloader for 10 years now. I love it. I have a 45 cal t/c omega that I hunt with. I have settled on 100 gr. 777 and hornady 200gr sst. The deer that I have shot with always run like they weren't even hit, but I have always had a great blood trail. While hunting fields I go up to 150 gr. of powder and have shot deer as far as 200yds. The deer didn't run as far, which to me that the bullet was expending more energy at the slower speed. 
For those of you that think the shockwaves and sst are same bullet, all I can on say cut one of each in half lenth ways. They are not the same. Hornady lead is softer and the jacket towards the tip is thinner.
As for the rest of the different manufactures, the only other bullet I have kill deer with are power belts. They worked but not as accurate as I like at longer ranges. I would like to try some noslers at some point. Most of you are shooting 50 cal. All of my experences are with a 45 cal.


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## Billw

Knight said:


> No problems here. I use the 300 grain bonded shockwaves. 4 shots, 4 dead deer. All shots were through both lungs. Lungs were liquefied. Could put a broom handle through the wounds. Massive blood for anywhere from 20-50 yards. No shoulder shots for me.


I use the 300 grain regular shockwaves and have had pretty much the same experience.


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## badjedi

I have shot 2 deer with 250 grain shockwaves out of my TC Omega over the past two years. The first one was about 50 yards away and dropped it on the spot. The second was about 30 yards away and blew through both front shoulders and took out one lung. She went about 50 yards and bled like a stuck pig. The accuracy is out standing and as long as I keep killing deer with them, they are good enough for me.

So, after reading this thread, I decided to shoot into some water jugs to see how the bullet preformed. I was pleased with the devastation that the bullet did to the water jugs, but all I could find was the copper jacket (in two pieces) and a small piece of lead about 5 cm across. I will still be using them next year to hunt with.


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## ENCORE

*So, after reading this thread, I decided to shoot into some water jugs to see how the bullet preformed. I was pleased with the devastation that the bullet did to the water jugs, but all I could find was the copper jacket (in two pieces) and a small piece of lead about 5 cm across.*


That's the exact reason that some people are getting away from them. The bullet either totally discintrates or doesn't expand at all. I'm still waiting for a picture of a "perfect mushroom" from a recovered Shockwave.

If you're happy with them, use them by all means. However, after reading this post and any of the others, you should have seen that there is quite a number of shooters that have changed to a different bullet. Pictures of spent bullets tell the story and there have been those that were posted, that showed poor performance.

PS........ With dial up, I don't look at youtube stuff. Takes forever:rant:. But just so you know, a round ball will do the same thing to a milk jug :lol:


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## goodworkstractors

Ok, so stupid question, but I'm not an expert. I was at Cabelas the other day looking at ML bullets. Barnes makes one with a polymer tip that looks really similar to the Shockwave. I know there are other factors involved, but do you think I should even consider the Barnes with the polymer tip since I was having so much trouble with the Shockwave? Or could results be completely different? I don't want to spend the $25 on them if it'll give me essentially the same results.

There was also a Barnes hollow point which I was looking at as well. Either way, I'm looking to get something closer to the 300 grain mark.


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## deepbluesniper

I have now used 200 grain 50 cal. shockwaves ahead of 100 grains loose pyrodex R in my Rm 700 ML to kill my 8th deer- NONE went more than 25 yards, all were large bodied deer, and all were shot between 30 and 100 yards. Accuracy is unbelievable-I am staying with them


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## glockman55

cscott711 said:


> Ok, so stupid question, but I'm not an expert. I was at Cabelas the other day looking at ML bullets. Barnes makes one with a polymer tip that looks really similar to the Shockwave. I know there are other factors involved, but do you think I should even consider the Barnes with the polymer tip since I was having so much trouble with the Shockwave? Or could results be completely different? I don't want to spend the $25 on them if it'll give me essentially the same results.
> 
> There was also a Barnes hollow point which I was looking at as well. Either way, I'm looking to get something closer to the 300 grain mark.


This is something you have to find out for yourself, no one can tell you what bullet/load combo that is gonna work in your rifle. Barns is a good bullet. Spend some of that green, it's the only way to know for sure..
And what didn't you like about Shock waves? I use the 300 gr. and love the results I get out of them.


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## Fishnmachine

this thing is never ending! shot one deer with ml this year 250 spire pt shockwave, 2 777mag pellets blew out sholder massive damage inside, small exit, but lots and lots of blood, dead deer 15 yds from where it was shot, shot was 150yds. Same result with 300win mag, but way larger exit hole. sooo?


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## Swamp Monster

cscott711 said:


> Ok, so stupid question, but I'm not an expert. I was at Cabelas the other day looking at ML bullets. Barnes makes one with a polymer tip that looks really similar to the Shockwave. I know there are other factors involved, but do you think I should even consider the Barnes with the polymer tip since I was having so much trouble with the Shockwave? Or could results be completely different? I don't want to spend the $25 on them if it'll give me essentially the same results.
> 
> There was also a Barnes hollow point which I was looking at as well. Either way, I'm looking to get something closer to the 300 grain mark.


The Barnes TMZ (tipped) is wicked good! There is no comparison between the lead cup and core tipped Shockwave. The Barnes is still an all copper controlled expansion bullet. The results on deer are absolutely devestating. Imho, it's one of the best, if not the best muzzleloading bullet you can buy. You'll have to find a load it likes in your gun like anything else, but if your gun can shoot it, you won't have to worry about on game performance. I love this bullet and I know with complete confidence that when I pull the trigger, I have a deer on the ground. I use the 290 grain TMZ, but the 300 grain hollow point from Barnes is a good one as well.


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## Beaverhunter2

After reading this whole thread, I've seen some things that were _fairly_ consistent. Inconsistent performance for the .50 cal 200gr shockwave loads set over heavy (130-150gr) powder charges. Few complaints on 250gr and 300gr; and less on the 200 when approx. 100gr charges were used.

As far as bullets expanding when shot into dirt, I've dug up 150gr and 180gr PSPCL, 130gr and 150gr Barnes (from a .30-06), and .475 Hornady 325gr XTPs that haven't expanded at all. If it wasn't for the rifling marks, they could have been shot again. Shooting into water alone also isn't truly representative of flesh and bone. It puts about as much stress on a bullet as you can (thus fragmentation). Wet newsprint has been suggested but 10% gelatin is supposedly the gold standard. I prefer analyzing the chest cavities of deer.

To each his own. My daughter's .45 Knight shoots 200gr shockwaves over 80gr 777. My .50 shoots 250s over 2-50gr. 777 pellets and 300s over 110gr of 777 loose. 1" groups and deadly performance.

That's my $.02

John


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## goodworkstractors

Well I seem to not learn my lessons quickly. This past opening day was the last straw for me with the Shockwave 200 grain bullets. My muzzleloader is dead-on at 100 yards and about 4" high at 50 yards. I had a mature buck quartering to me at 60 yards on opening morning and I put one right in his boiler room. The deer took off on a run and ended up doing a 180 around my ground blind. He was on the typical death run that I've seen many of my deer do with disregard to what is in their way. You could hear him making groaning, guttural noises that seemed to reconfirm a solid hit that was sure to end things quickly. I gave the deer about an hour or so and then went to check the location of the shot for blood. I quickly located the shot and found lung matter spattered amongst the leaves. I made a beeline to the last spot I saw the deer which was approximately 100 yards from where I shot him and picked up on the blood trail right away. I was certain that he lay dead not more than 30-40 yards beyond that. I followed a blood trail for 400+ yards which ended in the middle of an open field with no deer and no more blood. Besides the typical blood spattering found on grasses, leaves, branches, etc there were about 15 pools of blood and lung matter the size of a paper plate along the way. The area he was tracked through was easy to see ahead and at no point in the process did I think I should back out. The blood trail seemed obvious to me that it is a dead deer. I am so disappointed with what has happened and will be switching to another load immediately.


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