# New regs for next year ?



## mrwhitetails101 (Oct 15, 2011)

Hope this is true guys 3 geese per guy in reg season


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Why is the late season getting shortened? If they want to screw with us at least give us more time with a lower bag limit. I'll take days in the field over bag limit almost every time. Go back to the way it was a few years ago and have the whole month of Jan. but maybe 3 birds a day. Just a thought. 

Didn't we only have a 4% screw up rate last year on teal? How did we go from that to 30%? Something seems screwy about that stat.


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## Sparky13 (Sep 22, 2013)

21 day late season is the same as this year. I like the dates. And the 3 bird limit

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Sparky13 said:


> 21 day late season is the same as this year. I like the dates. And the 3 bird limit
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


I was thinking the season used to be later? I feel like it used to go a month.


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## Sparky13 (Sep 22, 2013)

It did. They are now giving more time in September 

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Ahhhh I see. Makes sense. I still don't like the later dates but you can't win them all. I'll make do.


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## Sparky13 (Sep 22, 2013)

It was nice when late season started 2-3 weeks earlier.

We used to get 2 or 3 days of regular season. Now we have 10

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

I think this is a thought of what may be... I not sure I would hang my hat of this yet...


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Dead Bird said:


> I think this is a thought of what may be... I not sure I would hang my hat of this yet...


This is what will be given to the NRC for approval.


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

More than half the states still are hunting... we have no spring data yet... alot of unknown data is still in the air...


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## Brougham (Jan 29, 2010)

A lot of chatter for later start dates in N.W and S.W. Michigan. Sag Bay opening Oct 14 in 2017 & Oct 13 in 2018 later than usual. Maybe a future line dividing the state east and west, then something going east to separate St. Clair and Sag Bay? The DNR reps in the room certainly took notice to the west side discussion. Big lake hunting offers later N.W. opportunities Nov/Dec. Four zones was voted down again, so split remains an important component to most. A early freeze may have brought different zone proposals (Sag Bay Zone 2?), but warm weather allowed most to hunt 58 straight days. Voted to keep boundaries the same, although DNR can offer other options to NRC if they choose. My understanding is this does not happen often.


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## norton shores killer (Oct 24, 2009)

i would love the 5 birds all of september.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

Dead Bird said:


> I think this is a thought of what may be... I not sure I would hang my hat of this yet...


Waterfowl seasons for 2016 will not be set until July-August of 2016. I think that is someones wish list, or a proposal they may have sent to the CWAC.

Steve


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

hitechman said:


> Waterfowl seasons for 2016 will not be set until July-August of 2016. I think that is someones wish list, or a proposal they may have sent to the CWAC.
> 
> Steve


That is how it has been before, but it may/will be different this year, because the Feds changed their policy about releasing their proposed framework. So I think it CAN be done much earlier this year.


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## gooseblood82 (Oct 7, 2014)

mrwhitetails101 said:


> Hope this is true guys 3 geese per guy in reg season


Where is this info from bud? I like the 3 bird regular season...I have had a lot of hunts end while they are landing as I pick up


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

The Fed's changed the framework that caused the season dates to be set so late in the year.

Starting this year - CWAC/NRC will be setting season dates and bag limits in January for the following season.
Federal frameworks will be based on the previous spring pond counts (2015 for this year).
The bag limits for ducks remain the same as last year.
Goose has changed to 5 a day for the entire month of September, 3 a day for all other dates. 
We also gained about 15 days of total goose hunting.

I'm hesitant to say too much about proposed dates yet, as CWAC deviated from the DNR's recommendations for dates - and the final say happens with the NRC in February.

It is the stated goal to have the 2016/2017 waterfowl digest published by June 30 each year going forward.

IMPORTANT:
Regarding the experimental teal season - 2016 is the final year of the 3 year trial, and frankly as a group of hunters, we failed badly in 2015 last year.
As part of the trial, the DNR is required to spend a certain amount of time observing
Hunter activity in regards to taking or attempting to take teal during the season.
In 2015 the observers witnessed hunters attempting to take non-target species a little over 30% of the time.
I would tell you that a failure rate that high will likely result in the Feds not allowing us to have a permanent teal season.
What's more, CO's observed people shooting everything from Grebes to Sandhill Cranes in the teal season.

Get the word out - we all need 2016 to go better than 2015 did.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

KLR said:


> The Fed's changed the framework that caused the season dates to be set so late in the year.
> 
> Starting this year - CWAC/NRC will be setting season dates and bag limits in January for the following season.
> Federal frameworks will be based on the previous spring pond counts (2015 for this year).
> ...


Thanks for the post. Lots of good info. 

In regards to the cranes and swans being shot in the teal season I do not possibly see how they can blame teal hunters. Clearly they didn't miss identify a crane for a teal. Shouldn't that be counted against goose hunters? The last two years have seen unusual warmth for that time period. I would be curious to see how the season is with average temps.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

The obervers witnessed teal hunters shooting at birds that weren't teal 30+% of the time.

The other violations may have been goose hunters, that doesn't change the first statement.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

I guess my point was since the seasons were both open its very likely they were hunting both. Cranes have been getting shot for years around here..


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

craigrh13 said:


> I guess my point was since the seasons were both open its very likely they were hunting both. Cranes have been getting shot for years around here..


Or - instead of trying to rationalize the stupidity of other hunters - you could take the information as presented and ask those within your circle of influence to please be aware of the situation.

Instead, just like when you got a ticket, you have to try and come up with fourteenthousand other possible ways to rationalize why you were in the right and the law is stupid and you shouldn't have been considered in violation.

The spy blinds are set in areas where teal frequent - and I'll garandamntee that the people manning the spy blinds are smart enough to know when a group of teal hunters is targeting the odd group of geese and is not considering that an attempt at non-target species.

Share the information or don't.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

KLR said:


> Or - instead of trying to rationalize the stupidity of other hunters - you could take the information as presented and ask those within your circle of influence to please be aware of the situation.
> 
> Instead, just like when you got a ticket, you have to try and come up with fourteenthousand other possible ways to rationalize why you were in the right and the law is stupid and you shouldn't have been considered in violation.
> 
> ...


Must be that time of the month for you eh? Simple question, simple answer there buddy ol' pal. For the record I didn't even teal hunt or hunt early geese as I was working out of the country this year so it sounds as if your circle of influence is the one more likely to be the problem. Just saying.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)




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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

craigrh13 said:


> Must be that time of the month for you eh? Simple question, simple answer there buddy ol' pal. For the record I didn't even teal hunt or hunt early geese as I was working out of the country this year so it sounds as if your circle of influence is the one more likely to be the problem. Just saying.


deflect - deflect - blame someone else - rationalize behavior. At least you're consistent.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Lol. Well clearly I wasn't one of the people contributing to that 30%. I never hunted in said seasons and regardless I know how to identify birds. Not to mention have I never admitted that I technically wasn't in the wrong in regards to the ticket. That's done and over with though and I'm not sure what that had to do with asking a question of the illegal killing of cranes and swans was counted towards the teal hunt. That seems like a logical question to me.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I would encourage everyone here to email Katy Kuehn (sp?) at the Cadillac office, to beg them make a summer teal video. They could shoot it in Aug and distribute it via electronics. Use a blind, set a mojo. ID wood ducks, Teal, and Mallards in juvenile/eclipse plumage.

They could talk people through basic differences in behavior, flight, formation, size and color.
And point out that in Sept they aren't very wary, so shots chosen can be close.
With enough effort, we could convince them to make a video, and maybe save the season.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

KLR said:


> T
> IMPORTANT:
> Regarding the experimental teal season - 2016 is the final year of the 3 year trial, and frankly as a group of hunters, we failed badly in 2015 last year.
> As part of the trial, the DNR is required to spend a certain amount of time observing
> ...


The results for the 2014 experimental teal season were certainly much better than for 2015. Here is a copy of the report: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/early_teal_season_summary_478622_7.pdf

I am really curious on how the non-target species attempt rate can go from 4.7% in 2014 to over 30% in 2015. I hunted both seasons and know that there were fewer teal available in MI 2015 (at least where I hunted)

I really hope that we do not screw this up. If we lose the early teal season in MI after this year, it will be for the very same reason that we were not allowed to have such a season for so many years. 

Guys if you cannot tell the difference between a teal and another duck or grebe or sandhill crane, do not hunt this next teal season. Or better yet, hunt with somebody who can tell the difference.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

And every year people wonder why the general public is not allowed to kill mute swans.


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## lastflight (Aug 16, 2005)

John Singer said:


> I am really curious on how the non-target species attempt rate can go from 4.7% in 2014 to over 30% in 2015. I hunted both seasons and know that there were fewer teal available in MI 2015 (at least where I hunted)


I think you just answered your own question. No teal = more attempts at non-targets


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

Were it me, I would rather the goose limit stay at 2 and give less days to hunt them. Reason being, a three bird limit and more days only equals more pressure over a long period of time.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

John Singer said:


> The results for the 2014 experimental teal season were certainly much better than for 2015. Here is a copy of the report: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/early_teal_season_summary_478622_7.pdf
> 
> I am really curious on how the non-target species attempt rate can go from 4.7% in 2014 to over 30% in 2015. I hunted both seasons and know that there were fewer teal available in MI 2015 (at least where I hunted)
> 
> ...


No one has the definitive answer to that, but I think 2 scenarios came into play:

1) 2014 was the first year of the season - I truly believe that since it wasn't confirmed until mid-July that the season would take place, that the only people who were really aware that we were having a teal season were the more informed, well seasoned hunters that can ID birds on the wing very well. I think 2015 experienced a broader range of hunter skill and experience, contributing to the poorer results

2) We had high temps in the 50's the last week of August and teal numbers at the refuges dropped dramatically before the season opened (one would assume they did from other places as well) - I think lack of teal made for more attempts on non-target species.


*An interesting comment from the teal discussion at CWAC meeting on Saturday, and the cold August temps - A mallard that was banded at (I think) PM in late July was recaptured the first week of September in Pennsylvania at one of their banding sites.


The reason a successful teal season matters to everyone? I can tell you with absolute certainty that having the ability to get out in September for teal takes some of the pressure off of having early opening dates in the regular duck season. If that goes away, I'd imagine the opportunity to have December season dates will suffer with a 60 day season framework - as it is very challenging to say with a straight face that the average Michigan duck hunter wants more days in December than October


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

John Singer said:


> The results for the 2014 experimental teal season were certainly much better than for 2015. Here is a copy of the report: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/early_teal_season_summary_478622_7.pdf


Is there somewhere we can see the report for 2015?


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

BFG said:


> Were it me, I would rather the goose limit stay at 2 and give less days to hunt them. Reason being, a three bird limit and more days only equals more pressure over a long period of time.


Your statement is true - however (working off memory) we are something like 200-250,000 birds over the target number of Canada geese.
Relocation hasn't been effective at keeping the numbers in check, so we'll try this.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

Thank you for the reply and your service on CWAC.

I can state from my perspective that the opportunity to hunt earlier in the fall becomes more important as one ages. I really do not want to see us "screw the pooch" with this early teal season opportunity.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

KLR
My observations at a large public marsh system (complete with secret DNR blinds, lol) is that with greater popularity, more .....inexperienced? ...duck hunters tried their hands at warm weather duck shooting.

Like 5X as many as last year.
Watching a swan go down was impressive. Finding an additional crip a month later was really disappointing.

I will shoot a training video if the DNR won't, and put it on You Tube this summer.

Since I am a cynic, I'll prolly call them, "Ok d******, Tell me what this one is", or, "Can you hear the whistle d******?".or "Hey d******, Blue or Green?" or "Don't shoot if you can see the whites of their eyes"

I don't wish to spend my waning waterfowling years living with the evidence that an Indiana waterfowler is smarter than a Michiganian waterfowler.


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## Jimw (Jul 8, 2009)

Is it a teal identification problem, or an I don't give a sh#t I'm killing ducks problem? I'm thinking the latter..


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

No one will believe this coming from me, but I hold out hope that if a guy can get the "tight as a banjo string" feeling without shooting hatchling wood ducks, there's a chance we can save it.

They can have "in yo' face" waterfowling legally. They can make big piles, and hoot and holler and everything. But you can't shoot hatchling wood ducks.

First we eliminate ignorant mistakes through teaching in the manner an ignorant duck hunter uses every day. Which would be passing video around on social media.

Probably call the series, "Stoke it!" with Phil McCracken.


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## Fowl Play (Nov 30, 2014)

I'm still scratching my head about the cranes. Those are accidentally shot a lot? I never see much when hunting, except in nodak. How could they be confused with anything waterfowl related. Although, that sound they make can be irritating, like nails on a chalk board. Lol


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

When cranes come in low from the east you could mistake them for low geese. Especially if it was early or foggy. Silhouette wise anyway, but then the slow wing beats, the croaking, the pointy beak, and the dangly legs, would tilt things to the inexcusable zone. But if you don't shoot, well, no harm, no fowl. 

They are very good eating. I wouldn't call them "ribeye of the sky", but I might say "pot roast o the pot holes"


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## flighthunter (Nov 21, 2005)

Jimw said:


> Is it a teal identification problem, or an I don't give a sh#t I'm killing ducks problem? I'm thinking the latter..


I'd say that is the problem, especially with the early season crowd. Seems that most are primarily concerned with emptying the gun on whatever flies by.


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## Fowl Play (Nov 30, 2014)

Thanks game keeper. I was thinking the same or someone just couldn't handle that noise anymore.







this greedy pig knocked the bird seed I was carrying for my wife. Wish I had a bigger backpack or I would of been eating ribeye. Lol.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

Fowl Play said:


> Thanks game keeper. I was thinking the same or someone just couldn't handle that noise anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful example of the elusive white-winged teal, or is it an albino honker? 

Steve

On a side note................it's will be great to see the regulations formulated and finalized more than 3-4 weeks before the season starts. It's about time. When I was on the CWAC all we could do was wait for the feds to act.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

There's a few pairs nesting by my house, so I see the parents and their young every year. I can't believe they eat whatever it is that lives in a sugar beet field. They are out there all the time picking around.
They've caught me looking pretty hard at them a bunch of times. But never within gun range. By the time they are within 60yards, I better know what I'm looking at, or I shouldn't be out there with a gun.

Out west they can be seen in the 100's of thousands along the Platte.


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## Fowl Play (Nov 30, 2014)

That beak could do some damage too. I've seen bunches in nodak too.


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## mintgreenwalleyemachine (Jan 18, 2005)

Just wondered if the do the long early season are they still going to shut down tescola,huron, saginaw down early?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

KLR said:


> The Fed's changed the framework that caused the season dates to be set so late in the year.
> 
> Starting this year - CWAC/NRC will be setting season dates and bag limits in January for the following season.
> Federal frameworks will be based on the previous spring pond counts (2015 for this year).
> ...


Thanks for saving me the time of typing all of that Dan!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

craigrh13 said:


> Must be that time of the month for you eh? Simple question, simple answer there buddy ol' pal. For the record I didn't even teal hunt or hunt early geese as I was working out of the country this year so it sounds as if your circle of influence is the one more likely to be the problem. Just saying.


Dude, I'm gonna say this to you ONE MORE TIME. You love to sit behind a keyboard and whine, while guys like KLR spend their own money and time volunteering for the job of being a CWAC member...a thankless "job" by the way. First, you need to come to the meetings and hear the discussion prior to these kinds of decisions being made. It can be long, frustrating and sometimes borderline ridiculous. But believe it or not, the CWAC decisions usually have some good logic behind them. But unless you hear the whole discussion, all you see is the end product...the recommendations, without knowing how they got there. When you attend and listen, you get the whole picture from guys statewide regarding what the hunters in their areas (at least those that take the time to contact them) want to see in our regulations. So I encourage you to attend the meetings like many of us do. There was a large turnout Saturday of observers and DNR staff...much more than I expected to see on a snowy day in January in the middle of nowhere Michigan.


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## Lurker (Jan 25, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Dude, I'm gonna say this to you ONE MORE TIME. You love to sit behind a keyboard and whine, while guys like KLR spend their own money and time volunteering for the job of being a CWAC member...a thankless "job" by the way. First, you need to come to the meetings and hear the discussion prior to these kinds of decisions being made. It can be long, frustrating and sometimes borderline ridiculous. But believe it or not, the CWAC decisions usually have some good logic behind them. But unless you hear the whole discussion, all you see is the end product...the recommendations, without knowing how they got there. When you attend and listen, you get the whole picture from guys statewide regarding what the hunters in their areas (at least those that take the time to contact them) want to see in our regulations. So I encourage you to attend the meetings like many of us do. There was a large turnout Saturday of observers and DNR staff...much more than I expected to see on a snowy day in January in the middle of nowhere Michigan.


did moving the snipe season come up?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Lurker said:


> did moving the snipe season come up?


I assume you're joking. there was some discussion of gallinules/rails/moorhens, but the DNR waterfowl specialist said "if you have input on that, get with me directly" LOL


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

just ducky said:


> Dude, I'm gonna say this to you ONE MORE TIME. You love to sit behind a keyboard and whine, while guys like KLR spend their own money and time volunteering for the job of being a CWAC member...a thankless "job" by the way. First, you need to come to the meetings and hear the discussion prior to these kinds of decisions being made. It can be long, frustrating and sometimes borderline ridiculous. But believe it or not, the CWAC decisions usually have some good logic behind them. But unless you hear the whole discussion, all you see is the end product...the recommendations, without knowing how they got there. When you attend and listen, you get the whole picture from guys statewide regarding what the hunters in their areas (at least those that take the time to contact them) want to see in our regulations. So I encourage you to attend the meetings like many of us do. There was a large turnout Saturday of observers and DNR staff...much more than I expected to see on a snowy day in January in the middle of nowhere Michigan.


WTF am I whining about? I was asking if cranes and swans were counted against the teal. It's a logical question since the teal and goose overlap. I'm not seeing the issue here. I'm just curious how we went from 5% to 30% in the attempt to kill rate. Some of us don't even work in this state or this country for that fact so attending these meetings isn't even an option. God forbid someone ask a question.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

I am wondering if there was a vote at the meeting for posting kill charts statewide in all managed area or even better post it in Wetland Wonders manager's report? That is all I care about.

IMO, put bunch of poachers in the marsh in September and tell them you can only shoot teal, and now everyone is surprised that 30 percent shot at other ducks.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

It's not easy managing a mob of 40,000 people that want to "go keel sumpin'".
I'm impressed the regs are as accommodating as they are. Having 100+ days a year to shoot waterfowl is truly the glory days.

Unless you're a law breaker, then you have to work so that an attorney can buy a bigger boat.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

fsamie1 said:


> I am wondering if there was a vote at the meeting for posting kill charts statewide in all managed area or even better post it in Wetland Wonders manager's report? That is all I care about.
> 
> IMO, put bunch of poachers in the marsh in September and tell them you can only shoot teal, and now everyone is surprised that 30 percent shot at other ducks.


Wasn't even on the agenda, so no, was not discussed. Was it proposed to the DNR to be discussed?


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

just ducky said:


> Wasn't even on the agenda, so no, was not discussed. Was it proposed to the DNR to be discussed?


When is the next meeting? I like to propose it to be on the agenda? How do I do that? I can bring MS survey results showing about 50 percent are in favor it. The other 50 percent just do not have to look at it,


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

fsamie1 said:


> When is the next meeting? I like to propose it to be on the agenda? How do I do that? I can bring MS survey results showing about 50 percent are in favor it. The other 50 percent just do not have to look at it,


http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65138---,00.html

Steve


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## Lurker (Jan 25, 2009)

hitechman said:


> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65138---,00.html
> 
> Steve


missed it.
whens the next one so I can bring up changing the snipe season? pretty sure there's lots of duck, goose & swan poaching going on during snipe season.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

Lurker said:


> missed it.
> whens the next one so I can bring up changing the snipe season? pretty sure there's lots of duck, goose & swan poaching going on during snipe season.


I believe that now there will only be 1 formal CWAC meeting (in January) per year. There may or may not be an informal meeting.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Steve


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## idylmoments (Apr 28, 2002)

Throwing this out there because I have no idea. If we can have an early teal season, can we have a late seaduck season? I was a proponent for years for the teal season and can't believe we got it. So it can't hurt to ask.
From the other post, the Fed guidelines say no more than 4 of each species for seaducks, but Michigan's guide says nothing. Can we shoot 4 or 6?


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

idylmoments said:


> Throwing this out there because I have no idea. If we can have an early teal season, can we have a late seaduck season? I was a proponent for years for the teal season and can't believe we got it. So it can't hurt to ask.
> From the other post, the Fed guidelines say no more than 4 of each species for seaducks, but Michigan's guide says nothing. Can we shoot 4 or 6?


From what I understand, You could ask for them to designate the Great Lakes as a "special sea duck area", and then the state could elect to have a separate sea duck season, which spans 60 consecutive days. If they did this, then the special sea duck limits would be in effect, instead of the 6 of any duck.


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## idylmoments (Apr 28, 2002)

jwinks said:


> From what I understand, You could ask for them to designate the Great Lakes as a "special sea duck area", and then the state could elect to have a separate sea duck season, which spans 60 consecutive days. If they did this, then the special sea duck limits would be in effect, instead of the 6 of any duck.


Interesting. Thank you


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

Go look at Nebraska's management zones. More can be done to address the problem with when seasons should be open in one area vs another, rather than simply slicing our huge state into 3 relatively equal sized zones.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Brougham said:


> A lot of chatter for later start dates in N.W and S.W. Michigan. Sag Bay opening Oct 14 in 2017 & Oct 13 in 2018 later than usual. Maybe a future line dividing the state east and west, then something going east to separate St. Clair and Sag Bay? The DNR reps in the room certainly took notice to the west side discussion. Big lake hunting offers later N.W. opportunities Nov/Dec. Four zones was voted down again, so split remains an important component to most. A early freeze may have brought different zone proposals (Sag Bay Zone 2?), but warm weather allowed most to hunt 58 straight days. Voted to keep boundaries the same, although DNR can offer other options to NRC if they choose. My understanding is this does not happen often.



Good because the reg suggestions that started this thread were developed by a DNR employee, who if I'm not mistaken, primarily hunts around shiawasee. Hunter numbers probably stronger on the east side than the west, not sure, but that vote would always lose if this were the case. Keep the same opener, I don't care, split a week, find a way to add more time in the end.

I don't mind the goose restructuring, that's thinking out of the box. Most people probably complaining there's not many fields harvested in early september.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Lamarsh said:


> Go look at Nebraska's management zones. More can be done to address the problem with when seasons should be open in one area vs another, rather than simply slicing our huge state into 3 relatively equal sized zones.


actually the whole flyway is under the same guidlines and options. just keep in mind, if we start changing zones up and moving things around you start messing with splits. for instance, u go 4 zones...then we go straight 60 no split as one example. you can only get so creative and still satisfy the majority.

lotta complainers on here think making a ton of noise individually will garner them a better personal season for themselves. Just think about how many were satisfied and not making any noise. I guarantee you that number is 100x more than a few posters here.

you will never see a bold move to drastic season/zone changes without some kind of facts/proof that it will benefit the majority of hunters. its that simple. Until then, you will see tweaks or adjustments.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> ...you will never see a bold move to drastic season/zone changes without some kind of facts/proof that it will benefit the majority of hunters. its that simple. Until then, you will see tweaks or adjustments.


Normally you and I are pretty much in agreement. However on this point, never say never. Quite a bit of discussion Saturday at CWAC for some pretty creative changes, and the DNR is listening. Nothing happening in the near future, but long-term (4 or 5 years from now) you may be surprised. Stay tuned


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

For the guys that were there, did they why there wouldn't be a "sea duck zone" or a 4th zone that just consisted of the Great Lakes of some sort?


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I'm not a fan of "squeaky wheel" game management. It reflects badly on management.
If in a time of "professional research and game management", a coordinated mob representing a tiny subset of a much larger population can upend an entire management system, then it implies we aren't getting much professional management for our money.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

craigrh13 said:


> For the guys that were there, did they why there wouldn't be a "sea duck zone" or a 4th zone that just consisted of the Great Lakes of some sort?


smh


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> smh





Shiawassee_Kid said:


> smh


Does smh mean shaking my head? I see the teeny boppers using those acronyms.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

craigrh13 said:


> For the guys that were there, did they why there wouldn't be a "sea duck zone" or a 4th zone that just consisted of the Great Lakes of some sort?


This is only my impression from listening from the "peanut gallery" Saturday. The DNR's waterfowl workgroup was almost evenly split on the idea for a 4th zone that was proposed by a SW Michigan hunter(s). It was debated by the CWAC group as a whole, and the biggest roadblock (from what I heard) is many still hate to lose the opportunity for a split, and going to a 4 zone arrangement would mean losing the split. There was also quite a bit of discussion about the DNR's 2014 survey numbers, which were presented at the meeting, and the fact that a wide majority of those hunters surveyed are not in favor of later hunting. So yeah, it boils down to a relatively small group (the "squeaky wheel") seeing a need for a 4th zone, and not much overall support for the concept. KLR or other CWAC members who are on this site...correct me where necessary please.

As far as a "sea duck season" in particular, it was talked about loosely, but there was no formal proposal to develop one, so it was not formally considered.


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## lastflight (Aug 16, 2005)

Does anyone have the proposed date information for Zone 1 and 2??


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

lastflight said:


> Does anyone have the proposed date information for Zone 1 and 2??


Go back to the very first post in this thread. The OP posted the CWAC recommendations. But as KLR said in post
#16 of this thread, be careful about assuming these dates will be adopted by the NRC because some of the recommendations varied from that of the DNR's waterfowl workgroup, and may or may not make it to the NRC meeting.


EDIT*** Whoops! I see now he only posted the proposed dates for the southern zone. I don't have the info with me, but I'll post it up tonight (if no one beats me to it first).


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

just ducky said:


> This is only my impression from listening from the "peanut gallery" Saturday. The DNR's waterfowl workgroup was almost evenly split on the idea for a 4th zone that was proposed by a SW Michigan hunter(s). It was debated by the CWAC group as a whole, and the biggest roadblock (from what I heard) is many still hate to lose the opportunity for a split, and going to a 4 zone arrangement would mean losing the split. There was also quite a bit of discussion about the DNR's 2014 survey numbers, which were presented at the meeting, and the fact that a wide majority of those hunters surveyed are not in favor of later hunting. So yeah, it boils down to a relatively small group (the "squeaky wheel") seeing a need for a 4th zone, and not much overall support for the concept. KLR or other CWAC members who are on this site...correct me where necessary please.
> 
> As far as a "sea duck season" in particular, it was talked about loosely, but there was no formal proposal to develop one, so it was not formally considered.


Thank you.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I don't have time to derive a decision matrix for the decisions, but I'm pretty sure it all revolves around, "If you do this, you can't do that." And if my inquiries have any basis in fact, just about every major decision is measured against hunter impact. Or if you are a mirroring person, every desire of a small group is measured for effect against the large group. As opposed to benefit for the small group.

You could argue that aggregate measured satisfaction would increase by making the market bigger.
That's the argument that put a McDonald's in St Charles. And it was true. 


So in that respect it's actually a benefit for participants in the early migrating bird seasons (snipe, rails, gallinules) to stay out of the big bird discussions. Focus on their unique interests and biologies. I'd support a smaller bag limit for greater season length. But I'm pretty sure people are mis identifying long billed migrant shorebirds as snipe, and that would be a "teal-like" problem in short order. I've seen more than one Phalarope in someone's bag. I can't say what it tasted like.

Duck hunting technology has changed, safety is presumed greater, electronics can get the USCG to you faster, weather seems to be changing the Great Lakes, etc. So it probably is time to plan the supporting research to see what the resource can sustain, and when it can best be harvested.

If a lake zone means no split, the hunter days lost in the east better be more than offset by the hunter days gained on the Great Lakes.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Gamekeeper said:


> ...If a lake zone means no split, the hunter days lost in the east better be more than offset by the hunter days gained on the Great Lakes.


Wow, you posted a mouthful there  But this is a very accurate summation. And for now, the answer is it does not offset it...at least based on the DNR's survey of current hunters.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

craigrh13 said:


> Does smh mean shaking my head? I see the teeny boppers using those acronyms.


smdh lol


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Gamekeeper said:


> I don't have time to derive a decision matrix for the decisions, but I'm pretty sure it all revolves around, "If you do this, you can't do that." And if my inquiries have any basis in fact, just about every major decision is measured against hunter impact. Or if you are a mirroring person, every desire of a small group is measured for effect against the large group. As opposed to benefit for the small group.
> 
> You could argue that aggregate measured satisfaction would increase by making the market bigger.
> That's the argument that put a McDonald's in St Charles. And it was true.
> ...



I too would support smaller bag limits for a longer season. We could end the zone discussion if we had a 74 day season like the central flyways but at a reduced bag limit, say 4 birds a day instead of 6. That would give us more days into December which is mainly what the discussion is about. I understand that won't ever happen but if it was ever proposed that would be ideal in my opinion. I'll take days in the field over higher bag limits every time.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

What I am about to type is against my vested self interest.

If I may channel Don Draper for a moment, "If you don't like what they are saying about you, change the conversation.". I gave a hint as to how in an earlier edited post.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

I could see where many hunters could have problems differentiate teal from swans when deciding at first light.

Why not have a comparison is swans and teal in the guide with a scale drawing, description, sounds flight characteristics etc

Might help some folks and preserve the teal season


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

craigrh13 said:


> I too would support smaller bag limits for a longer season. We could end the zone discussion if we had a 74 day season like the central flyways but at a reduced bag limit, say 4 birds a day instead of 6. That would give us more days into December which is mainly what the discussion is about. I understand that won't ever happen but if it was ever proposed that would be ideal in my opinion. I'll take days in the field over higher bag limits every time.


I don't have much of a problem with the current regs, but I would support this.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Lamarsh said:


> I don't have much of a problem with the current regs, but I would support this.


Oh I'm cool with how things are as well. I was just stating that the big kick seems to be people wanting more days in December. Getting a longer season at a lower bag limit would be one way to do it. However, I don't think it's a feasible option anyways as we have to follow the federal 60 day season for our flyway. Someone with more knowledge should be able to comment on that.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

craigrh13 said:


> I too would support smaller bag limits for a longer season. We could end the zone discussion if we had a 74 day season like the central flyways but at a reduced bag limit, say 4 birds a day instead of 6. That would give us more days into December which is mainly what the discussion is about. I understand that won't ever happen but if it was ever proposed that would be ideal in my opinion. I'll take days in the field over higher bag limits every time.


a 74 day season probably has better shot of happening than a 4th zones does....


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