# 16 gauge advice



## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

So, I got this real nice old Savage model 720 16 gauge, a Browning A-5 "sweet sixteen" clone I guess. Real pretty old gun that has been completely restored.It has some nice engravings of ducks over a marsh on one side, birds and a bird dog on the other. I listed it on armslist to trade for another 12 gauge but have been kicking around the idea of using it for woodies when the weathers not to bad. It has a Cutt's compensator and Lyman's full choke but will get an improved or modified if i keep it. I was wondering, how does a 16 gauge only chambered for 2 3/4" work on ducks? How hard/expensive is ammo for it? Anybody know the value on these old 16 gauges, I know the 12s go for a bit cheaper? Anybody out there hunting with a 16 gauge?


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## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

16


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

I have the Fox BST double 16 that I got for my 14th birthday in 1957. I shot a lot of pats and ducks with it years ago. This of course was when lead was still legal. I have not had it in the field for a number of years as I can not walk any more to hunt pats and do not hunt ducks any more either. I have 10 boxes of lead dove loads as I had the dream that I would be able to hunt doves with it. No way would I shoot steel through it. Tungsten is too expensive for me.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

I regularly hunt ducks with 16 gauge shotguns. I often hunt with a Stevens 5100 sxs. I also have the same Savage 720 that you have except mine had a fixed full choke rather than a Cutts Compensator. 

I opened the full chokes on both the Savage 720 and Stevens 5100 to modified so that I could shoot steel. I would never recommend firing steel shot through a choke tighter than modified. I would also do some research about firing steel through a Cutts system. I do not know if their could be safety issues.

I reload my own shells so I no longer purchase commercial steel loads for the gun. I only tried the Federal #2 and #4 and found them both to be quite anemic for waterfowl. I have zero experience with the Remington 16 gauge steel loads, but my local hardware store sells them.

By far, the best available commercial steel shot that I ever found for the 16 gauge came from Sporting Ammo: 

https://www.facebook.com/sportingammo/

I recommend that you try their 15/16 oz load @ 1450 fps of #3 steel for ducks. I was very pleased with how they perform.

As I stated earlier, I reload and my go-to steel load is #50204 shown here:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/VP80 data.pdf

I use #4 steel for small ducks (bufflehead/teal) #3 and #2 steel for large ducks and this may seem odd but the left barrel of my Stevens really likes #1 steel for ducks. Also, I often hunt WPAs in Iowa for pheasants. I carry the Stevens sxs and use #4 in my right barrel and #3 in the left.

I have no trouble killing ducks with steel through my 16 gauge guns. I use them throughout the seasons. My 16 gauge sxs was the only gun that I used all last season at my blind on the Bay.


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## Wolverine423 (Dec 3, 2013)

A 16ga has the best shot string - You will have no problems on ducks


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## AaronJohn (Oct 18, 2015)

BEWARE. Old guns were NOT meant to handle heavy steel loads! Do your research.


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## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

John Singer said:


> I regularly hunt ducks with 16 gauge shotguns. I often hunt with a Stevens 5100 sxs. I also have the same Savage 720 that you have except mine had a fixed full choke rather than a Cutts Compensator.
> 
> I opened the full chokes on both the Savage 720 and Stevens 5100 to modified so that I could shoot steel. I would never recommend firing steel shot through a choke tighter than modified. I would also do some research about firing steel through a Cutts system. I do not know if their could be safety issues.
> 
> ...


Yeah I was wondering about shooting steel through the cutts. That will for sure be something I look into before I pick up some steel.


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## Sofa King what? (Nov 1, 2016)

Should kill em just fine! But like previously stated, make sure it's safe to shoot steel with


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

One more thing about that Cutts Compensator, you will not be making any friends in the confines of a duck blind when you fire that. Noise and partially burnt powder are ejected out the sides at anybody nearby.

It may not be an issue in your own hunting situation but it will not be pleasant in a boat or small blind.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

With the Mod choke and 3s or 4s and smaller you shouldn't have any problems with the barrel rupturing. I am not sure with the Cutt's. The barrel might get scuff marks if wads like back in the 80s or 90s are used. If you reload some of the better wads from Precision Reloading or Ballistic Products like the multi metal wads will help protect the barrel.


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

My Browning BPS 16 works well but very pricey to shoot and hard to find shells, all online.


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## lefty421 (Dec 7, 2012)

Cabelas now has Federal 16ga steel shells in stock in #2 and #4 shot. $24 per box though! Ouch!

https://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=2498471&categoryId=0&parentCategoryId=0&subCategoryId=0&indexId=0&productVariantId=3015914&quantity=1&itemGUID=af468644ac10a85d3089300885e5766a&destination=/checkout/item_added_to_cart.jsp?result=success&categoryIds=104792580%7C104691780%7C104567580&productId=2498471&WT.z_btnclk=Chart&backToPreviousUrl=%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct.jsp%3FproductId%3D2498471&WTz_l=Chart


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## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

Say I take the cutts compensator off, would it basically be an open choke at that point? It would really shorten the barrel up also...


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## BVG (Nov 18, 2004)

Hevi Shot makes "Classic Doubles" for older guns. I would check with a gunsmith before shooting any modern steel through that gun. Shot is likely harder than the barrel.


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## roger15055 (Dec 27, 2011)

Mifishslayer91- Yes if you take the Cutts off it you will have a open choke. Savage always made good guns. Having said they were meant to be used as was the intention they were never high priced. There are also articles on taking the cutts off just type it in. When you sell it you can rest assured it won't bring enough to retire!! So enjoy it, The open choke will be fine. I know a few guys who use sixteens as duck guns. A buddy of mines daughter can hang with anyone with her 20 guage so you have enough power just know your limits. Don't sky bust. There is something about a old gun with wood that does something to you, escecially hunting the puddle ducks. Question- I bet you have more than one screwdriver in your tool box!!!  So my thought is why not have a gun just to play with and have fun!! Yes the shells are pricey but so are your waders your dekes and boat and everything else! Duck hunting will test your wallet for sure Good Luck. And take some photos of a couple drakes laying over the barrel of that beauty!! What ever choke was stamped on the barrel was gone when they put the Cutts on.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

Some people may have kittens about shooting steel through older guns. I will not.

I paid $100.00 at a garage sale for my Stevens 5100. I paid $154.00 for my Savage 720. These guns were never meant to be safe queens. I purchased them to use them. Steel shot is not going to burst the barrels. I may get some scratches, but so what? They are my guns, I am using them for what I bought them for.

Now regarding that Cutts Compensator, realize that was developed and used on shotguns before one piece plastic wads and steel shot. I do not think it is wise to fire steel through it.


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## roger15055 (Dec 27, 2011)

John Singer you are correct. I would just take off the Cutts and play. It would be a open choke which out of that would probably become a improved cyl with steel and for woodies in swamps and the fun of playing with a old gun like that sweet!! As i was trying to get across before PLAY WITH IT!! When you sell it,you wont get enough to retire!!!


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## ajkulish (Nov 16, 2013)

John Singer said:


> Some people may have kittens about shooting steel through older guns. I will not.
> 
> I paid $100.00 at a garage sale for my Stevens 5100. I paid $154.00 for my Savage 720. These guns were never meant to be safe queens. I purchased them to use them. Steel shot is not going to burst the barrels.  I may get some scratches, but so what? They are my guns, I am using them for what I bought them for.
> 
> Now regarding that Cutts Compensator, realize that was developed and used on shotguns before one piece plastic wads and steel shot. I do not think it is wise to fire steel through it.


Well, it can rupture the barrel. From what I remember, they changed powder when going to steel to get the extra velocity to try to compensate for lack of mass and deformability. So less compressible shot+faster burning powder= increased pressure in barrel. Maybe its fine, maybe its not. You never know. 

I watched a buddy try to hunt with an old side by side for ducks, with new steel 2 3/4" shot, low velocity, and also watched the stock split in half with the first shot. Had previously witnessed him shooting turkey loads, buckshot, etc through it without a hitch. Only took one steel shot. 

Take it as you will, OP


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

ajkulish said:


> Well, it can rupture the barrel. From what I remember, they changed powder when going to steel to get the extra velocity to try to compensate for lack of mass and deformability. So less compressible shot+faster burning powder= increased pressure in barrel. Maybe its fine, maybe its not. You never know.
> 
> I watched a buddy try to hunt with an old side by side for ducks, with new steel 2 3/4" shot, low velocity, and also watched the stock split in half with the first shot. Had previously witnessed him shooting turkey loads, buckshot, etc through it without a hitch. Only took one steel shot.
> 
> Take it as you will, OP


From my knowledge they used the same powders like 800X, 571, Superfield, 4756, HS6 &7 and such, but they developed Steel which is considerably slower for less initial pressure spikes. Even more so than Blue dot.

It could have been a damascus barrel double. I shot boxes out of my Springfield with only light scoring.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

ajkulish said:


> Well, it can rupture the barrel. From what I remember, they changed powder when going to steel to get the extra velocity to try to compensate for lack of mass and deformability. So less compressible shot+faster burning powder= increased pressure in barrel. Maybe its fine, maybe its not. You never know.
> 
> I watched a buddy try to hunt with an old side by side for ducks, with new steel 2 3/4" shot, low velocity, and also watched the stock split in half with the first shot. Had previously witnessed him shooting turkey loads, buckshot, etc through it without a hitch. Only took one steel shot.
> 
> Take it as you will, OP


I am confused. Your example describes a cracked stock. Are you equating this to a burst barrel?

Properly loaded modern steel shot must meet the SAAMI standard of 11,500 psi for 16 gauge (and 2 3/4" 12 gauge). That is the same for both lead and steel shot.

A barrel that will fail with steel will also fail with lead shot.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

Had a brain fart, went from stock to steel.


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## ajkulish (Nov 16, 2013)

John Singer said:


> I am confused. Your example describes a cracked stock. Are you equating this to a burst barrel?
> 
> Properly loaded modern steel shot must meet the SAAMI standard of 11,500 psi for 16 gauge (and 2 3/4" 12 gauge). That is the same for both lead and steel shot.
> 
> A barrel that will fail with steel will also fail with lead shot.


No I am not trying to equate this to a burst barrel, I'm just sharing the sole experience I had with someone trying to put modern duck load in an old gun, that's all.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

ajkulish said:


> No I am not trying to equate this to a burst barrel, I'm just sharing the sole experience I had with someone trying to put modern duck load in an old gun, that's all.


Got it, thanks. 

Actually the concern that you expressed makes a lot of sense. Some older shotguns were manufactured with chambers shorter than 2 3/4". Up until WWI, the standard length for 12 gauge was 2 9/16" and until 1929 that was the standard length of 16 gauge chambers.

Firing 2 3/4" shells in the shorter chamber causes an excessive pressure spike. When the shell is fired, the cartridge opens into the forcing cone. The shot and wads then have to be forced through a very small opening. With lead loads, you can get away with this for some time as lead is malleable and flows somewhat. However, with steel shot, bridging may occur creating an excessive pressure spike that can lead to damage to the gun. The same problem can occur when firing a 3" shell in a 2 3/4" chamber. The shell will fit in the chamber because it is shorter than 3" when loaded but opens to 3" when fired.

A few years ago, I repaired an older Ithaca NID (sxs) in 16 gauge that had failed after being fired several times with modern 2 3/4" lead shot shells. This gun never had a steel load fired through it. The barrel lug and lower rib was broken loose from the barrels. I soldered the rib and lug back to the barrels. I then measured the chamber length and determined that they were indeed 2 9/16".

As others have stated, it may be best to have older guns inspected by a gunsmith prior to firing with steel shot or modern lead shot.

The Savage 720 was manufactured from 1930 to 1948. They were made with 2 3/4" chambers. A gunsmith can measure the chamber length and verify that.

To do it yourself, a dry erase marker (Expo brand) can be used as a chamber gauge for 16 gauge. Simply remove the barrel, place the base end of the marker in the chamber until it stops at the forcing cone. Mark where the head of the chamber is on the marker and then remove the marker and measure the distance with a ruler.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

One more tip for the OP and others with a Savage 720, Browning Auto-5 or Remington Model 11 or any of their clones. Check the friction ring configuration on your guns. See the illustration below. John Browning designed this gun so that it can be adjusted to function properly with both light and heavy loads.

It is always best to set up the gun for heavy loads. If with lighter loads, it fails to cycle, then change the configuration to the light load setting. Remember, the flat surface of the friction ring always goes against the spring.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Fondled a beautiful 1914 Model 12 16 gauge but it was 2 9/16" chamber, so I didn't buy it. On occasion I carry grandpa's hideous 1897 and drop a duck with it. Bismuth fours work fine.


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## Adam Gibbs (Jul 13, 2006)

Just a FYI if anyone has a 2 9/16" 16ga and still wants to fire it. Company called RST out of Pennsylvania makes 2.5" 16ga shells. I bought some last year to shoot through my grandfathers A5. They have many different load offerings.


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## ajkulish (Nov 16, 2013)

John Singer said:


> Got it, thanks.
> 
> Actually the concern that you expressed makes a lot of sense. Some older shotguns were manufactured with chambers shorter than 2 3/4". Up until WWI, the* standard length for 12 gauge was 2 9/16"* and until 1929 that was the standard length of 16 gauge chambers.
> 
> ...


Now that is something I did not know. Surely something has to give in that scenario, usually the lead, but sometimes its shot steel vs barrel steel. 

That is also a cool bit of info on the friction rings, John Browning knew a thing or two.


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