# does how many?



## JOE_RFISHER (Mar 8, 2003)

how many does are enough does..........so far this year i have shot two and my buddy has shot a couple but there is still a crap load of them runnin around how many is a good number to make the heard healthy thanks


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Giuseppe, if you've got lots and lots of does, and your neighboring hunters aren't taking their share, I think it's near impossible for you to take too many in one year. Keep going, man! If necessary, buy a new freezer, or get in touch with MSAH.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Deer are prolific breeders. If you have good habitat you should be able to harvest about 40% of your does and not impact deer numbers.


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## Old Hunter (Jan 21, 2002)

You guys make me sick, kill all the doe's and soon there will be no deer. Shoot 1 doe you kill 3 deer. Sorry but true.


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## JOE_RFISHER (Mar 8, 2003)

no the real sick thing is shooting every horn you see and not trying to sustain a health buck to doe ratio!


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

JOE_RFISHER, below is a quote of mine from a post about 6 months ago. I think it fits here also.

"...when in doubt it is better to harvest too many does than not enough. The deer herd will rebound faster than the habitat."


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## GrizzlyBear (Apr 27, 2003)

OH,
Your name is a perfect reflection of your mentality!


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I only had 3 doe tags but could have filled 10 without a problem.

The kids who were at camp for muzzleoading season got a lesson in humility on hunting late season mature does. The boys saw deer but got busted or made other mistakes that cost them on filling their tags. It sure was not for the lack of seeing mature does.

3 does have been taken so far. All had button bucks with them so hopefully they will make it through the winter and return in the spring.

Next year if allowed I will purchase 10 anterless tags and get the herd numbers down to more resonable levels.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

> You guys make me sick, kill all the doe's and soon there will be no deer. Shoot 1 doe you kill 3 deer. Sorry but true.


Fine I will listen Old Hunter, but what do YOU do for the bucks then? Do you shoot any horn? only 1 1/2 olds? IF shooting does is SO bad than what about bucks?


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Luv2hunteup _
> *
> The kids who were at camp for muzzleoading season got a lesson in humility on hunting late season mature does. The boys saw deer but got busted or made other mistakes that cost them on filling their tags. It sure was not for the lack of seeing mature does.
> *


As you well know, luv2, it ain't just the kids that get a lesson from those December does. Lot of adults who have NEVER really gone out to intentionally hunt does, once they do so, quickly find out how hard it is. I don't think there is a warier big-game animal on this planet than a mature, Michigan doe in December. They will certainly put your ambush skills to the test.

If you need to take does, you will quickly come to the realization that the earlier you do it, the greater your odds of success.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

FL

You're right about the challenge of shooting an educated mature doe.

My plan this year was to take 3 mature does, each with at least one button buck identifiable to her, plus it had to be after Thanksgiving. My daughter would be with me hunting so I we wanted to share the kill.

The Saturday after Thanksgiving at 9:00am a mature doe came out of one of the ravines heading to a clover plot with a bb in tow. She dropped with a well placed shot to the head. 10 minutes latter another doe popped out with twins, one of each, and met the same fate as the first.

Live weight of the first was 168# and aged at 4.5 years old.

Live weight of the second doe was 143# and aged at both 2.5 and 3.5 years of age by the DNR.

Yesterday I filled my last anterless tag on another big doe with a live weight of 179# and aged at 5.5 years old.

I did not take a mature buck due to not seeing one so far this season. The nice part is that there's still lots of season yet to come.

Time will tell if orphaning button bucks pays off but I would never know if I did not try.

FYI....... the DNR is still collecting heads for CWD in a number of UP counties. If you haven't taken yours in please do. The DNR worker who took my does head indicated that no CWD has been found as yet in Michigan. He also thought that only 2 confirmed TB deer have been identified out of 7000 tested.


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## anon02032020 (Oct 2, 2003)

Pregnant doe hunting. Great, I really hope when you pull those two little bucks out of her belly, that 30 pounds of meat makes your day. "Old hunter" you are right, most of this state has hit the wall.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Here's a dirty little secret, folks, relating to the difficulty of legally harvesting those spooky matriarchs: many guys out there are too inept at the deer hunting game to kill adult does. 

I guess that's why they stick to baby bucks. 

As Joe Friday would say, just the facts.


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## anon02032020 (Oct 2, 2003)

Really farmlegend, if you happen to be referring to me, understand this, my personnel minimum buck is a 10 point 20 inch spread, I have passed 5 bucks in the 16 inch spread range over the last 9 years, and guess what I have not shot a buck in 10 years. So what do you call a "BABY BUCK and what are your property standards"? Anything less than 8 points, 16 inch spread is not allowed to be harvested on my land. Yes it is time the bar gets raised statewide AND a one buck tag needs to be intiated starting now. 

As for the facts, many now realize that 1.8 million deer exists in a dream. Keep shooting your mature pregnant does and your deer herd will start crashing just like the rest of this state. Just think of those buck fawns which will never hit the ground running, only in a pile of leaves. Now that's a LEGEND to be proud of!

As for inept, how difficult is to throw out 2 bags of carrots, sit in a heated shack, shoot a well primotive inline muzzleloader 150 yards and call yourself a legend. NOT MUCH


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## JOE_RFISHER (Mar 8, 2003)

mantic we are all not as blessed with large bucks as u are that is why we are implamenting management programs on our land and as a start you need to trim the total deer population and then form it how you would like to by deminishing the deer population you can start fresh shooting management bucks even and for taking does it just a part of the process and shooting a doe doesnt make you any less of a man it just makes you a lil bit fuller near the supper table


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Matinc, I was not referring to you. Heck, I didn't even recognize your username. Welcome.

NO Great Lakes region state protects does to the extent they are protected in Michigan. Year in and year out, we harvest a fewer percentage of does in our harvest mix than do hunters in OH, IN, IL, and WI. Gee, what do those states have that we don't?

Not enough deer around? By nearly any respected measure, there are at least 3 times as many deer residing in Michigan as there were 30 years ago, though they are distributed somewhat differently. Generally speaking, quantity ain't our problem.

For the record, my last 16 recorded kills have all been bowkills, and not a single buck in the bunch. Since you mentioned it, none were taken over bait, and no shacks. 

Let's put that fistful of tags to good use!


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## passthru (Oct 28, 2003)

Mantic & Old Hunter, 
Here are some facts for you. Here in MI we have a severely off balance herd as far as buck to doe ratio. There are repocussions to this. Problem 1 is when you have a larger number of does you run into a problem where your bucks will run themselves in to the groud trying to breed them and then enter winter in rough condition which in turn leaves them at a loss for growning their potiental rack the fallowing spring. That is if they make it thru the winter to begin with. Problem 2 is you have so many does that some of them are bred by lower quality bucks. Problem 3 is it makes for a spotty rut and a very suttle rut, less does more aggressive and more natural rut.

Now for your second comment about baiting and sitting in my nice warm shack. First off I havent used bait in about 10 years and I dont even gun hunt to begin with except for 1 day a year just so my relatives can hunt on my lease. I have shot 2 bucks this season both over 100 inches and I have also harvested 4 does and have 2 doe tags still left. I am laid off and I need the meat. I have 6 in my family and I use every bit of meat I harvest. On an average my family eats 5 deer a year and we usually still run out but Aug/Sept. My kids get bigger appitites every year, so Im sorry if your offended by my shooting of does. As for me Ill be out next week filling my other 2 doe tags anyways!!!!!!


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

> _Originally posted by passthru _
> * On an average my family eats 5 deer a year and we usually still run out but Aug/Sept. *


Great to hear, passthru. I figure late August to early September is the perfect time to run out of venison; it sustains you most of the year, and then you go into October 1 "hungry".


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## snakebit67 (Oct 18, 2003)

statistics are great, but seeing is something else. In 2weeks of hard hunting i saw no less than 6 different does for each sitting. One night i had 11 different does in. The only buck i saw was a lone 5point i shot the second week (no doe permits for the area). Talking to most of the land owners around, it was the same thing. That would seem to tell me too many does, not enough bucks. I really wanted to let that 5pt go but it was getting late in the season. Deer were everywhere just no bucks. Did see a doe with 3 young ones though. That was pretty cool.


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## passthru (Oct 28, 2003)

Snakebit67, Congrats on the buck!!!! I agree on the issue of too many does. I lease 500 acres in Ionia Co. and we have had unlimited doe for atleast 3 or 4 yrs now and I bet between my 2 buddies and myself we taken 20 does off it in that time and I still see oddles of does. My buddy saw 14 different does and 2 buckscome out of one small section of corn the last night of reg. gun season. 14 different does in 1/2 hour or so. That is just one edge of the 4 different cornfields I have on my lease. I could take 20 off in the next week and Im sure Id still see does!!!!!!!!


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## SA ULTRA MAG (Nov 7, 2001)

Passthru,

No need to lower yourself to someone else's actions.

You gave this Mantic way more info than I would've. He does not deserve the time of day as far as I'm concerned. He has been way to critical for the numbers of posts that he has for such a "new" member. I have seen alot of these types come and go, sometimes not by their choice either.

As long as you are doing what is right by you and you are within the limits of the law........go for it. Good luck filling your 2 remaining tags and I think that they have more over the counter permits available for those over populated areas.


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## outsider (Feb 16, 2002)

Hope you get acouple big does ,, good eatin .
Dont let the flamers get to ya.
Is Mantic code for PETA???


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## MIBIGHNTR (Aug 27, 2002)

Congrats to all who took bucks or does this season!

Passthru - you must have an awesome spot to collect two bucks over 100 inches in MI! If you ever need a hunting partner, please let me know!  

I, for one, whould like to see MI inact some of the QDM practices that have been so rewarding for many other states. I have been bowhunting for 22 seasons and have yet to harvest anything larger than a 13"-14" 8-point. I strongly feel that much of it depends on the property you have to hunt. The deer populations and buck/doe ratio varies so widely across the state, I don't think we will ever have agreement between hunters on this issue.

I think we should all open our minds, agree to disagree, and be civil about it........ 

Mark


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Hello my friends!

I shoot doe....yes I do....in some areas I shoot as many as I can!

To the fellas on this thread who disagree with this practice..I have a few but very important questions I hope you will answer:

I ask you these question to hear your respones as well as to stimulate broader thinking....

First question : 
It is no secret that the male/female ratio of deer in Michigan is unbalanced. In some areas its 3:1, and others its 10:1.
Nature created all mammals to have a 1:1 sex ratio. It is a defining trait of mammals.
The only factor skewing these sex ratios is the sport of deer hunting.
Why do you believe removing excess female deer, to reestablish the natural 1:1 sex ratio, is harmful to the deer herd?

Do you believe that the MI deer herd would be the only mammal herd in the world thats threatened by a 1:1 sex ratio?

Second question:

If 50 acres ONLY holds 10 deer...(not 11)...and currently it is occupied by 7 females and 3 males....how do you make room for more males if you wont shoot a doe?

Third question:

In your own opinion, how many doe per buck would it take for you as an individual to acknowledge that there is indeed a sex ratio problem....5:1? 20:1? 100:1? 

Final question:

Do you believe that the Michigan whitetail herd you see in the woods is a normal natural deer herd, behaving the way nature intended? 

Hunt


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## passthru (Oct 28, 2003)

Huntnut, I do believe it is for one of two reasons or both they are against it. #1 is they think they wont see any more deer while hunting. I read posts everyday on hunting sights saying" Ive only seen a couple deer and I cant believe it is so slow" or " I just saw one doe tonight man! I wish Id see more deer" Weve all seen these posts on this and other sites. For some reason hunters think the hunting is good in an area but the numbers they see not the quality. #2 they have this misconception that ever doe shot = 3 deer on the hoof the next season. Not taking into consideration the holding capacity of the land and sex ratios which if out of control actually can kill or displace more deer than the origional taking of a doe or two or in some regions the starvation of animals during the wintering months.


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

Old Hunter,



> You guys make me sick, kill all the doe's and soon there will be no deer. Shoot 1 doe you kill 3 deer. Sorry but true.


 Anybody out there happen to know how many does the average Michigan buck breeds per year? I'm betting that geting your buck will a much bigger dent in the future deer heard you will see than any single doe you will take.

I try to take at least 2-3 does off the property I hunt every year. The rest of our party has done the same. The result:

1.) I now see alot more deer.
2.) A much improved buck/doe ratio

Al


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## Ed Spin (Mar 20, 2003)

Huntnut, nice to hear from you. I'll try to answer a few questions that may need to be heard. 

Most hunters think that if they see 30 does opening day and only one fleeing buck that the buck to doe ratio can reach that number of 1:30. Well, I have said it before "The reason you are not seeing any bucks is because they are not there" and there is some truth in that statement, but there is more to this story. 

Now for the rest of the story, hard to believe but the buck to doe ratio can seldom get higher than 1:5. This is due to their high productivity and relatively short life span. The greatest number of deer are in the fawn class at the ratio of 1:1. Let's not even count the fawn class and go to the yearling class. Here too the ratio the day before opening day (October 1st) is 1:1 and that is the date when the buck to doe ratio should be formed. The next and following age classes diminish proportionately in numbers with an old doe considered to be eight years old, with very few of them around. Check with a field biologist at the next deer check station you vist for this data. Hardly any field biologist checks more than a handfull of bucks that are six years old or older in their career.

Bottom line is that over 90% of all deer go through the system and are gone in six years. This prevents a super build up of does even if they are not shot, yes not even a single one. With almost 90% of all bucks being taken it still will not go over a ratio of 1:5 and this is influenced primarily by the large and even numbers of yearlings (bucks and does). 

How many does does a buck breed in one season? Well, in free rangeing deer it may reach eight does but seldom reaches that number with five to six does being a high number. So, how many does do we need in the herd? No more than it takes to replace the bucks that are taken. OK, how many is that? 

Maintaining a buck to ratio of one buck per 1 1/2 does in good to average habitat yearly along with protecting a minimum of 66% of all yearling bucks will produce the greatest number of bucks that can be harvested yearly than any other deer management practice including traditional deer management. Another thing the bucks that are taken are of a higher class. This management system will be a sustained one indefinately if the deer density is at no more than 60% of the maximum carrying capacoty of the habitat. This may be hard to believe for those who cling to the existing traditional management theory, but true it is and just what will it take to convince the doubters of this? 

In tougher weather locations like the UP the buck to doe ratio will need to be greater (1:2 - 1:2.5) for sustained large buck harvests.

Keep the fun in hunting!


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Nice to see u again Ed!

I agree with you....male to female ratios cannot exceed 1:5...and you are right about that completely!

But even if we say 3:1...we're talking about over a million animals, thats 750,000 females to 250,000 males.....and when you subtract the males that are buttons (largest age class of the males....)

Then you get an extremely skewed ratio of antlered to antlerless deer.

Its all so backwards in Michigan anyway...

I recently got the chance to hunt a natural deer herd in Saskatchewan during the rut......I was absolutely blown away and I was in a state of shock every single minute I was there.

I have become a religous out of state deer hunter from now on...the genetics, the behavior, the herd...was surreal. I did more hunting with my camcorder than I did with my weapon

Its not that Ive lost all hope for Michigan...I just know it will take FOREVER for any real change to happen here on a scale large enough to change the states herd.

Too many deer hunters, too much trespassing, too many forkhorns gettin wasted, too many farm bureau lawsuits, too many tb issues, too many deer politics....ack.

I spend WAY too much time, money, and energy deer hunting Michigan just so I can see a scraggly 6 point buck....that Im gonna let walk anyway.

In one afternoon on stand, I saw more bucks than I have seen in Michigan in the last 3 years...and everyone one of em was bigger than any I have seen here in the last few years.

I saved my pennies this year so I could afford to hunt a deer herd nature created, and I woulda payed 10 times the amount if I knew what I have been missin all this time!!

Ive already saved up a bit for next years trip....

Ed, I sure hope you guys gain some ground in this state....I really do!

Catch ya on the flip side!

Hunt


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## mecheadSR (Dec 18, 2003)

I believe mantic is very passionate about his hunting, and also very frustrated at the same time, just as I am. I hunt in northern newaygo county and southern lake county for most of the year, I have hunted there for around 24yrs and must say the last couple of years have been terrible for seeing average amounts of deer, this in my opinion is directly related to the "overharvesting" of does with the liberal amount of doe permits handed out in this area over the last few years. My opinion is that this area is having to hard a time rebounding from the loss of does and button bucks and will never have a balanced herd in this area of michigan, it is nice to be able to go in the woods and see deer in there natural state but it will never happen around this area, how can you hand out 7,000 or so doe permits for this area a year and expect to more deer or more young bucks the following year, what percentage of those does were button bucks or does with 2 inch antlers because our DNR says that a deer with 3 inch antlers can only be tagged with a buck tag, why is a buck not a buck when he has buttons, to me there is no logical answer, when I was born everybody in the room knew what i was, so why does the DNR have such a lack of commen sense, which by the way is the answer, if the DNR went with a more commen sense approach instead of all the political nonsense all us hunters would be in a better frame of mind. This is just my views on the subject, good luck hunters.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

MecheadSR, you and I need to talk. You're related to Mechanical Head, right? If I recall I think you hunt right by me. Almost within rifle ear shot. I'm on 14 mile between Spruce and Poplar. Aren't you by 16 mile and Spruce? The last 3 years sucked, for lack of a better word and the 3 before that sucked pretty good too. We must be in the worst deer area in the state. If you compare the deer sightings and shooting in our area from 1980-1998 to this year, what do you think the reduction is? What's your guess? 70%? I think that a 3pt on a side mandatory rule is the only thing that will work in an area like ours. And it wasn't 7000 permits, it was several years of unlimited permits followed by 14,000 a year in Newaygo and 11,000 in Lake. That's somewhere around 24 permits per section. I'm all for reduced herds, but not decimated herds. I get tired of hearing the guys complain at the store. It's almost universal. They say "boy, the DNR is sure killing them off...got any doe permits left for Newaygo?" This year, I got to the point that when they said that, I said "then why are you buying them?! We're not at our club. If you keep buying them, the DNR will think there's high demand and keep issueing them". That's what they did in those DMU's north of us last year when they issued more after selling out and a MDNR biologist confirmed to me that demand is one of the things they take into consideration. And 99% of the time, the guy still buys an antlerless tag and says something like "well the DNR has to do something to stop this". That's right, they do. Since hunters can't control themselves in DMU's that don't need anymore herd reduction, we need to reduce the antlerless permits. One permit per guy in Newaygo and Lake, coupled with 3pt regs is our answer. IMHO For the rest of the guys in the state that see 5-10 deer a day, or more, then issue away. But our area still hasn't had any recovery since 1999.


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## mecheadSR (Dec 18, 2003)

Hi bob, your correct on 2 things, I am mechanical heads brother and second I have hunted around that whole area for around 24 years, I started out going up there and staying with a friend our fathers and eventuely my father bought a trailer on pettibone lake , beautiful place, beautiful area and also it was a great place to hunt, in the old days we use to be with a group of hunters around the lake and go to certain half mile sections and do deer drives, this is how I learned some of the methods of hunting, it was also a great tool to see a lot of deer in a certain section of that whole area we discussed 18 mile to foreman, foreman to big star lake road, west of thirty seven, you name it we drove it, my point is we still do this up to this year for 1 week, it's always tradition that keeps us coming back, the reason I say it is a tool because you use to see a large amount of deer on these drives usually a whole lot of missing going on but also a large amount of excitement for the younger hunters and everyone alike, but over the years this number has rapidly decreased, I would guess we were probably shutout for over 50% of these drives this year and I think thats being conservative at the least, my point is this, I agree 100% with bob, The DNR has to realize they have made a mistake in this area, period. This is a tender area of michigan, deer do not rebound as fast as deer do from the south, they very rarely our over 140 pounds, they don't have the corn or beans or wheat to rebuild reserves for the winter. The DNR has to except this and put in a different management tool for this area and get sportsmen and hunters involved in this situation before it get's anymore out of hand


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Mechhead,
Welcome to Michigan-Sportsman.com.......even if you are Dennis' brother..........LOL!.........Just kidding about the brother part!!!!


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

MecheadSR, it used to be that our deer never got over 140lbs because there was just to many doe's and our bucks never got to 2 1/2 years because of super hunting pressure and a "buck it's down" mentality. Now they don't get to 140lbs because none of them live long enough, doe's or buttons. If the MDNR proved anything, it's that if you knock the deer herd down by 70% with 6 years of heavy antlerless permits, you can keep the population that size, with many less hunters. Before, we had 50 guys in a section chasing 70 deer. Now we have 20-25 guys chasing 25 deer. Maybe MDNR see's that the hunter numbers are going to drop soon with the baby boomers dropping out and they want to see if less hunters can keep a herd supressed at a certain level. And I don't mean supressed in a necessarily bad way. One of our biggest problems is that many of the locals in our area have made it like the "Suni-Triangle" area. Lot's of people on welfare and lot's of outlaws. It's always been like that here. Lake county and Baldwin in particular were once again both the poorest in the state, for county and town, respectively. I think the average income in Lake county was $14,000 a year. Having individuals come in that shot 20 plus antlerless deer a year is not uncommon. But managing the deer as a food bank isn't a good idea either and now we see the results in that area. And there's no defending that by saying "there's nothing wrong with them feeding their family". Well, yes there is. If you follow that logic, then there should be no limits on grouse or squirrel or any fishing laws. We have government assistance programs in place for needy people. And trust me, when you go to the grocery store around here, paying with cash is an oddity. Mostly stamps. But MDNR shouldn't be in the food stamp business and I don't think they want to or have any idea that they already are in it around here. It's too bad, because if you talk to guys in Mecosta county, like east of 131 or south of Big Rapids, the hunting seems to be very good and the numbers and ratio's are doing better. I guess when I hear that their hunting gets better and ours always gets worse, I need to know how we can turn that around. I do know that I've made up my mind on one thing, we didn't allow any antlerless permits at our place this year and I'm not going to allow any for next. I'm also seriously considering a blanket 3pt or better rule for everyone in both seasons not just archery, regardless of if they're only there opening day or not. Not that it would have made much of a difference anyways, out of 14 guys I was the only one who saw a buck this year. MecheadSR, let me know when you're in the area and I'll take you around the property and knock a couple back.


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## mecheadSR (Dec 18, 2003)

Bob, thanks for the invite, I"ll have to take you up on that. I was actually up there for the holiday's but didn't get around to much, except for hunting. I was up there since saturday and just got back into town on thursday, hunted hard everyday I could and seen an amazing 7 deer in 4 solid days of hunting, I did not even go out for the last night of hunting, which is kind of a tradition with bow hunters, could not find the excitement in it. I hate to beat a dead horse but we were all over the area up there looking for next year's spots and had a hard time finding any sign at all, this herd is in a really bad shape, but on the good side my father went out the last afternoon for a few hours and had a 6 point chasing a doe, which to me seems pretty rare this late, so remember hunters, them deer will be late fawns, so remember to look for buttons before you fill them doe tags next season.


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