# bear creek yesterday



## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

thousandcasts said:


> Wrong. People doing that are not "just like me," as you put it and I resent the comparison.


yea after rereading my post I can see how you could take I was putting you in the same pot. Not my intention, just saying people giving up too much info on MS is nothing compared to "some" guide reports. I see you made a "little" change to your site yesterday. Might want to remove a few pics too, doesn't take much thinking to figure out where "you" are fishing. Have a good season.


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## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

jatc said:


> One thing that really contributes to this is the well meaning, but not fully thinking, guys that will purposely break off a fish if they know it has been foul hooked. Think about it for a minute, all you are accomplishing is leaving a hook stuck in a fish for the next angler to have to deal with. Fouled or not, I try my best to land the fish and get the hooks out of it if I can't get the hook to just pull out early in the fight.


Actually those dudes are 'fully thinking' about the fish they have snagged (hopefully not intentionally) For one, is it illegal to continue to battle a fish that you know is snagged and that alone can get you a ticket, and should. Water must flow from nose to tail on a fish for complete oxygen absorption... When a fish is dragged back up-river the blood flow in the gill tissue is running the same direction as the river, which makes it less likely for all of the CO2 to be removed which results in lower blood oxygen saturation... Basically, it is like plugging your nose and covering half your mouth and then forcing you to sprint a half mile (get the picture!?!?). While that fish may swim away, it will almost certainly not be able to compete with other fish and spawn successfully. Whereas the lures, hooks, etc stuck in fish that are not going to live more than a month long anyway -AFTER spawning - have little to no mortality impact. It is always better to break off snagged fish than battle them to the death. This is particularly important in 100% natural reproduction rivers such as the Betsie and PM. 

fish on


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

fishfly said:


> Go the **** up into your flies only snagfest and leave the fish here alone or learn how to "fish"!




Snagging nasty fish is for hacks. If you wanna be pro-staff you gotta snag chromers.


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## jatc (Oct 24, 2008)

Benzie Rover said:


> Actually those dudes are 'fully thinking' about the fish they have snagged (hopefully not intentionally) For one, is it illegal to continue to battle a fish that you know is snagged and that alone can get you a ticket, and should. Water must flow from nose to tail on a fish for complete oxygen absorption... When a fish is dragged back up-river the blood flow in the gill tissue is running the same direction as the river, which makes it less likely for all of the CO2 to be removed which results in lower blood oxygen saturation... Basically, it is like plugging your nose and covering half your mouth and then forcing you to sprint a half mile (get the picture!?!?). While that fish may swim away, it will almost certainly not be able to compete with other fish and spawn successfully. Whereas the lures, hooks, etc stuck in fish that are not going to live more than a month long anyway -AFTER spawning - have little to no mortality impact. It is always better to break off snagged fish than battle them to the death. This is particularly important in 100% natural reproduction rivers such as the Betsie and PM.
> 
> fish on


I am going to boil this down to a simple "difference of opinion". The same argument you used for not landing a foul hooked fish, ie stressing the fish to the point of death, can just as easily be applied to any hooked salmon in the river whether it is legally hooked or not. Warm river water + buildup of lactic acid in the fish due to a prolonged battle (think 6 lb. flourocabon leaders) is not so good for the fish and may affect their ability to carry out spawning. Where do you want to draw the line?

As far as actually fighting a foul hooked fish being illegal, i just reread the regs and I'm not seeing it. I'm not saying that you're wrong, I am just not seeing it in black and white within the rulebook. I find where it says "all fish not hooked in the mouth must be returned to the water immediately", but the rule you are going by would make almost all salmon fisherman violators at some point in time due to the fact the "fight" begins when the fish is hooked. So, an angler who foul hooked a fish would be in violation until such a time the fish is not attached to the rod anymore. If I'm in error here or just am overlooking this rule, please forgive me and tell me where to look to find this rule.

Good luck on the river.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

riverman said:


> yea after rereading my post I can see how you could take I was putting you in the same pot. Not my intention, just saying people giving up too much info on MS is nothing compared to "some" guide reports. I see you made a "little" change to your site yesterday. Might want to remove a few pics too, doesn't take much thinking to figure out where "you" are fishing. Have a good season.


Ya know, I'll talk fishing all day long and anyone who's PM'd me knows that I'll help point them in the right direction as far as technique or advice goes.

All I'm saying is that a little discretion goes a long way and some reports are getting a little out of hand. At any given time, you can see "5 members and 17 guests" veiwing this NW forum. 

Last week, this group of guys roll into the cleaning with a cooler full of fish. I'm sitting there cleaning a few and they mention they were at Indian Bridge. What made them go there? "Guys on the internet were saying the PM was loaded, so we high tailed it down to Indian Bridge!" 

Of course, they had the tickler sticks in the back of the truck. Snaggers have internet access...some of them even know how to read! 

Discretion...that's all it takes. If you float from Point A to Point B and you tore 'em up and never saw another boat, why run home and post about it? Hey...brag your fish up, you deserve it...but leave Point A and Point B out of it, ya know?


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## LuckyChucky (Mar 28, 2005)

ausable_steelhead said:


> I've only seen a few people posting specs, and mainly 4 rivers get mentioned daily by name. I know I've been posting away this fall, and haven't had any "devastating" internet problems. You can post a report, with pics, and still keep your "secrets", it's not hard.
> 
> This site gets boring when all you see in the forums is newbie questions and people asking for handouts. Who cares what people think, posting some reports makes it a lot better on here, nice to see what everyone's been doing.
> 
> I just love the "we're cool because we don't post" crowd; you think everyone who post's does it for attention, accolades or status? Nothing gets fish chatter going better than good reports, and that's much better then reading constant whining, the same questions over and over, and hypocrisy. Have a good fall guys, I know I have been!


well alot of people do post pics and reports for bragging purposes,I mean you get a bunch of guys together on a forum about fishing and the ole Ive got a bigger fishing rod contest always comes about :lol: I dont post too many pics/reports because theres really no need.I help with any advice needed and locations via PM,I just dont like to show off catches on this site,it doesnt validate me as a fisherman like I feel it does for some folks.Actually going fishing and teaching people first hand gives me far more satisfaction then posting fish porn for all to drool over


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## lostontheice (Feb 18, 2011)

thousandcasts said:


> T-sticks, tots, rapalas--all of them in the salmon appropriate sizes come standard with a size 4 or size 5 treble.
> 
> Several years ago, we instituted a one ounce max sinker/lure rule on the rivers, which was aimed at outlawing the lead torpedo. As expected, some loser came up with the Turks Tickler which is barely legal, but legal by definition. Andy's in Bretheren not only openly sells these, but basically makes fun of the CO's in the area by advertising, "get your DNR approved Turk's Ticklers here."
> 
> ...


as per the salmon size cranks..if what you are running have that size of a hook..then im running way to small of a crank,(wonder if thats why i cant buy a bite on what i have been using)..ive always been a bag bouncer and learned the idea that "smaller is better" when i came to trebles..even with spoons and spinners,ive always tried to use a smaller size lure with a smaller hook..hopefully next salmon season,ill have a little extra money and will have to book a day with ya hutch,and try to learn more about cranking salmon..


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

Pretty ironic the title of this post. The circumstances behind it. And what the thread has turned into.:yikes::yikes::yikes::rant::rant::rant:


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

lostontheice said:


> as per the salmon size cranks..if what you are running have that size of a hook..then im running way to small of a crank,(wonder if thats why i cant buy a bite on what i have been using)..ive always been a bag bouncer and learned the idea that "smaller is better" when i came to trebles..even with spoons and spinners,ive always tried to use a smaller size lure with a smaller hook..hopefully next salmon season,ill have a little extra money and will have to book a day with ya hutch,and try to learn more about cranking salmon..


If you're talking about...say, a rapala shad rap, the SR08's are pretty much the standard size used. Those come standard with a VMC # 4 treble.


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## lostontheice (Feb 18, 2011)

fishkilla,was that you we fished with on the bear??


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## lostontheice (Feb 18, 2011)

thousandcasts said:


> If you're talking about...say, a rapala shad rap, the SR08's are pretty much the standard size used. Those come standard with a VMC # 4 treble.


thanks hutch..ive been trying t-stick jr.and tots..but the tots are from my walleye box and i thing are a little on the small side for salmon,but might be a better size for steel..like i said earlier,ill have to find some money and book a trip with ya and learn more..


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## Jones (Mar 5, 2010)

lostontheice said:


> thanks hutch..ive been trying t-stick jr.and tots..but the tots are from my walleye box and i thing are a little on the small side for salmon,but might be a better size for steel..like i said earlier,ill have to find some money and book a trip with ya and learn more..


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## johnnie555 (Jan 25, 2005)

thousandcasts said:


> there's enough guys on this site that have been doing their best to ruin most of the good fishing spots by posting report after report, detailed pics, mentioning specific areas....


 
YEP and then they wonder why the have everyone under the sun fishing right there with them..:lol: geeze I wonder who could be posting all this?:lol:


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## johnnie555 (Jan 25, 2005)

thousandcasts said:


> Discretion...that's all it takes. If you float from Point A to Point B and you tore 'em up and never saw another boat, why run home and post about it? Hey...brag your fish up, you deserve it...but leave Point A and Point B out of it, ya know?


YEP Exactly! Spot on, you can still brag up your fish, withought having to tell everyone with computer access in the world, just where and when you caught them..


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## johnnie555 (Jan 25, 2005)

Benzie Rover said:


> Actually those dudes are 'fully thinking' about the fish they have snagged (hopefully not intentionally) For one, is it illegal to continue to battle a fish that you know is snagged and that alone can get you a ticket, and should. Water must flow from nose to tail on a fish for complete oxygen absorption... When a fish is dragged back up-river the blood flow in the gill tissue is running the same direction as the river, which makes it less likely for all of the CO2 to be removed which results in lower blood oxygen saturation... Basically, it is like plugging your nose and covering half your mouth and then forcing you to sprint a half mile (get the picture!?!?). While that fish may swim away, it will almost certainly not be able to compete with other fish and spawn successfully. Whereas the lures, hooks, etc stuck in fish that are not going to live more than a month long anyway -AFTER spawning - have little to no mortality impact. It is always better to break off snagged fish than battle them to the death. This is particularly important in 100% natural reproduction rivers such as the Betsie and PM.
> 
> fish on


I'm pretty sure your WRONG on this one, maybe that's your rule to live by, but if i've foul hooked a fish in my day and it wasnt intentional. I'm not gonna cut my line as soon as I've noticed its foul! I think it puts more stress on a fish to have a lure and long chunk of line dangeling from it. Not to mention that line is more crap that the river doesnt need in it. Your assumption of a rule isnt mentioned ANYWHERE in the guide book, and thats probably because most people who fish have probably accidentally line/foul hooked a fish or two in their day. Doesnt mean it was intentional which is why they dont make it illegal untill you actually keep a foul hooked fish. Rule book clearly states that "all foul hooked fish need to be returned to the water immediately" and thats it..


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

If the DNR wrote a ticket for everytime someone was fighting a foul hooked fish, not only would they run out of paper, but they'd also have to start putting drive through's at every court house within 50 miles of a salmon river. 

If you're rigged up with the treble and yarn and ripping away, then yeah...they can make a judgement call and get you for attempting to snag. It's usually gotta be pretty blatant when they do that. Most of the time though, it's not releasing a foul hooked fish and illegal rigs that make up most of the tickets written.


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## UltimateOutdoorsman (Sep 13, 2001)

Jones said:


> I was reading a post by a certain fly fishing guide who exploits the Betsie every fall with his chuck and duck rigs and size 10 caddis...he was complaining because there was a jet sled with a 105 horse motor parked on a small clear NW river that is only 4-5 deep in its deepest areas. Here's a guy who guides out of a 16 foot prop sled and blatantly lines salmon all fall for a paycheck, and he has the gall to call another fisherman in a bigger jet sled an "idiot". What a joke...


Did you happen to catch the MOOD episode with him on it a few weeks ago? I never did see where he was hooking all those fish? :lol:


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

UltimateOutdoorsman said:


> Did you happen to catch the MOOD episode with him on it a few weeks ago? I never did see where he was hooking all those fish? :lol:


 Thats hilarious. I was wondering if anyone was going to call him out on that. Funny how every fish busted tail downriver with a fly fisherman chasing in hot pursuit. I think i saw 1 or 2 flies unhooked from the mouth.
Maybe that explains the 2 salmon I caught last week on the Betsie with I swear. #8 or 10 caddis patterns in the adipose fin.:yikes::lol::lol::lol:


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

johnnie555 said:


> YEP and then they wonder why the have everyone under the sun fishing right there with them..:lol: geeze I wonder who could be posting all this?:lol:


 Some people just don't get it.


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## lostontheice (Feb 18, 2011)

UltimateOutdoorsman said:


> Did you happen to catch the MOOD episode with him on it a few weeks ago? I never did see where he was hooking all those fish? :lol:


watched it today on computer,they never showed the hook up,and most of the fish,they didnt show the location of the fly,only 2,one hooked nicely in the front of the beak,the other on the side of the jaw,(far side from the fisherman)..but they did show the set at the end of his drifts,wonder if that is where the fish were,all down river of him,and "hitting" just before he lifts his rod??


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

I havent seen it but hope its not another questionable show like the one they were baiting or should i say "feeding" in.


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## SpartanAngler (Mar 11, 2003)

Above was the user count when I began writing this post. The bottom line is that this site has changed so much from what it used to be. It used to be a very interactive site with meet and greets and get togethers and it was a very fun atmosphere. I cannot tell you how many users *(most of which no longer use this site)* helped me learn all sorts of different techniques and spots to fish when I was first starting, and a lot of that information was posted freely on this site. It has turned into a site that I almost wish did not exist, most of what goes on here is fighting, and the majority (80.3% if my math is correct on the above numbers) of people who frequent this site are just raping it for information and not contributing a single thing. I also love when "Where should I fish and what should I use?" is the first post by a new member. I rarely post anymore because it just doesnt seem worth it. I do love reading guys like AusableSteelhead's reports because he makes it VERY difficult to figure out where he is at, he also has great stories and pictures. I guess I am just giving my .02 cents as I am dissapointed in what this site has become.


-SA


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## samsteel (Oct 6, 2008)

SpartanAngler said:


> Above was the user count when I began writing this post. The bottom line is that this site has changed so much from what it used to be. It used to be a very interactive site with meet and greets and get togethers and it was a very fun atmosphere. I cannot tell you how many users *(most of which no longer use this site)* helped me learn all sorts of different techniques and spots to fish when I was first starting, and a lot of that information was posted freely on this site. It has turned into a site that I almost wish did not exist, most of what goes on here is fighting, and the majority (80.3% if my math is correct on the above numbers) of people who frequent this site are just raping it for information and not contributing a single thing. I also love when "Where should I fish and what should I use?" is the first post by a new member. I rarely post anymore because it just doesnt seem worth it. I do love reading guys like AusableSteelhead's reports because he makes it VERY difficult to figure out where he is at, he also has great stories and pictures. I guess I am just giving my .02 cents as I am dissapointed in what this site has become.
> 
> 
> -SA


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## Progress (Feb 6, 2009)

SpartanAngler said:


> Above was the user count when I began writing this post. The bottom line is that this site has changed so much from what it used to be. It used to be a very interactive site with meet and greets and get togethers and it was a very fun atmosphere. I cannot tell you how many users *(most of which no longer use this site)* helped me learn all sorts of different techniques and spots to fish when I was first starting, and a lot of that information was posted freely on this site. It has turned into a site that I almost wish did not exist, most of what goes on here is fighting, and the majority (80.3% if my math is correct on the above numbers) of people who frequent this site are just raping it for information and not contributing a single thing. I also love when "Where should I fish and what should I use?" is the first post by a new member. I rarely post anymore because it just doesnt seem worth it. I do love reading guys like AusableSteelhead's reports because he makes it VERY difficult to figure out where he is at, he also has great stories and pictures. I guess I am just giving my .02 cents as I am dissapointed in what this site has become.
> 
> 
> -SA


I agree, I too 'wish' that people could keep a secret. However, this is the internet, so if my math is correct, approximately 6 billion people have access to this site. Good luck!

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Bulletproof (Jul 26, 2005)

UltimateOutdoorsman said:


> Did you happen to catch the MOOD episode with him on it a few weeks ago? I never did see where he was hooking all those fish? :lol:


There is no better feeling in the world than flossing kings for a paycheck......Ask about 95% of the guides here in MI that. Greeking kings, no not me.....

On a side note, even though I haven't fished yet this year for Kings and certainly won't now, I did hear and gather that this year's run was probably the best we've seen since the mid/late 90's. I heard of some crazy numbers coming out of the middle PM in mid/late august and obviously the Betsie had a few fish too. Sounds like most guys had ample opportunity to line a few fish......What a joke.


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## LushLife (Mar 3, 2008)

"Greeking kings" - classic! haven't heard that one before!


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Bulletproof said:


> There is no better feeling in the world than flossing kings for a paycheck......Ask about 95% of the guides here in MI that. Greeking kings, no not me.....
> 
> On a side note, even though I haven't fished yet this year for Kings and certainly won't now, I did hear and gather that this year's run was probably the best we've seen since the mid/late 90's. I heard of some crazy numbers coming out of the middle PM in mid/late august and obviously the Betsie had a few fish too. Sounds like most guys had ample opportunity to line a few fish......What a joke.


The joke may be on you since you missed what WAS the BEST early king fishing in the PM in over fifteen years for both numbers and size. No lining needed as they were crushing properly presented plastic plugs and stick baits.


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## Fish Eye (Mar 30, 2007)

Single hooks on plugs are fine you simply have to add a barrel swivel between the plug and hook. Gamakatsu 510 is all I use on my Steelhead plugs and they are superior to any other rigging including single or double sets of trebles.


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## AMA732 (Apr 11, 2002)

riverman said:


> The joke may be on you since you missed what WAS the BEST early king fishing in the PM in over fifteen years for both numbers and size. No lining needed as they were crushing properly presented plastic plugs and stick baits.


Riverman, 

Are you saying that there are still not a decent amount of fresh aggressive fish in the lower section? 

Thanks


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## Bulletproof (Jul 26, 2005)

riverman said:


> The joke may be on you since you missed what WAS the BEST early king fishing in the PM in over fifteen years for both numbers and size. No lining needed as they were crushing properly presented plastic plugs and stick baits.


I don't doubt that it was the best run we had in 15 yrs. I had mentioned that in my post. The joke is guides flossing kings for a paycheck. I'm very aware that kings can be had using several sporting methods, not exclusive to plugs or hardware either. I've done my fair share of river king fishing in the last 20 yrs. I don't need the fix anymore.


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Bulletproof said:


> I don't doubt that it was the best run we had in 15 yrs. I had mentioned that in my post. The joke is guides flossing kings for a paycheck. I'm very aware that kings can be had using several sporting methods, not exclusive to plugs or hardware either. I've done my fair share of river king fishing in the last 20 yrs. I don't need the fix anymore.


I hear ya. After one or two trips in Aug or early Sept I've had all I want of them too!!

AMA, not saying the lower water won't have fresh fish, "aggressive" is the key word.


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## walleyenut (Jan 11, 2011)

Just close the rivers period. Let the fish do what they are there to do. Or maybe even something similar to that of walleye.


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## duxdog (Apr 13, 2008)

walleyenut said:


> Just close the rivers period. Let the fish do what they are there to do. Or maybe even something similar to that of walleye.


 
That makes too much sense.


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## mondrella (Dec 27, 2001)

walleyenut said:


> Just close the rivers period. Let the fish do what they are there to do. Or maybe even something similar to that of walleye.


Sorry totally disagree. There is no need to protect these fish to spawn other than to keep the river cleaner. It dies not take many fish to repopulate the system. Salmon should be harvested. From some of the data I have been looking at it may actually leaf to a healthier population. A system can only support so many fish. That is just the way it is. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## hillbillie (Jan 16, 2011)

The river I fish most often gets no plants and supports a healthy fishery.That said I've seen spawning salmon in the small tribs closed to fishing after Sept.

I've also heard the PM gets no plants and that river always has a great run.


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## aimus1 (Feb 28, 2011)

Wow, this baby's made it a long way. Stinky, Nasty, Whitebacks anyway. Snag em, shoot em, or bail em out of the river with pitch forks.
How come nobody criticizes the tactics others use to fish for suckers?


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## hillbillie (Jan 16, 2011)

suckers don't have teeth


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## TK81 (Mar 28, 2009)

mondrella said:


> Sorry totally disagree. There is no need to protect these fish to spawn other than to keep the river cleaner. It dies not take many fish to repopulate the system. Salmon should be harvested. From some of the data I have been looking at it may actually leaf to a healthier population. A system can only support so many fish. That is just the way it is.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Bingo!


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## Roger That (Nov 18, 2010)

walleyenut said:


> Just close the rivers period. Let the fish do what they are there to do. Or maybe even something similar to that of walleye.


That would absolutely not happen. Ever.


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## Betsie steel (Jul 21, 2009)

SpartanAngler said:


> Above was the user count when I began writing this post. The bottom line is that this site has changed so much from what it used to be. It used to be a very interactive site with meet and greets and get togethers and it was a very fun atmosphere. I cannot tell you how many users *(most of which no longer use this site)* helped me learn all sorts of different techniques and spots to fish when I was first starting, and a lot of that information was posted freely on this site. It has turned into a site that I almost wish did not exist, most of what goes on here is fighting, and the majority (80.3% if my math is correct on the above numbers) of people who frequent this site are just raping it for information and not contributing a single thing. I also love when "Where should I fish and what should I use?" is the first post by a new member. I rarely post anymore because it just doesnt seem worth it. I do love reading guys like AusableSteelhead's reports because he makes it VERY difficult to figure out where he is at, he also has great stories and pictures. I guess I am just giving my .02 cents as I am dissapointed in what this site has become.
> 
> 
> -SA


Totally agree. When i first got on this site, I loved hearing other people's techniques and shared my own as well. I never saw the point of bragging and telling my spots to prove that I caught some fish. I personally will never post a report with pics and a name of a spot/river because I don't like giving handouts to spots that I have scouted and found by exploring. It burns me when someone tells a spot that I fish that is not popular. I have no problem with pics, like several have said I enjoy AS's reports. I wish this site was more about sharing techniques and less about spots. You can help someone with a style of fishing, and they can apply it to where they fish. They learn something, you help somebody out, and you are still not giving spots away. That being said, I am also sick of the fly fishing/snagging/call each other out game that goes on every fall. But that's another story. This is the reason why I used to post on here every couple days and now its more like maybe twice a year. Sorry for the rant, but this forum is not being used for its intended purpose like it used to be.


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