# Kill charts



## flighthunter (Nov 21, 2005)

Boyd said:


> I believe they should bring them back. If they are truly worried about bad numbers the fine should be greater for lying. I have personally seen guys come in with 12 birds to only report 4.


in a way, I see reporting bad numbers as the same as going over ones limit. if your gonna lie about how many you killed at the counter, how is that different than lying to a Co in the field?


----------



## The Reel Slacker (Mar 7, 2016)

I would like to see the charts come back. i havent hunted a managed area in years, but hunted them a lot wen i first started duck hunting. I like the charts for the newbies. Give them a chance at a productive area to keep building their interest. the veterans dont need the charts, they have figured it out. If newbies are always in the "crap" zones, it gets awful frustrating and hate to see them lose interest


----------



## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

The app on my phone doesn't allow me the option To vote for some reason but put me down for bringing back up to date kill charts. You can also put me down for keeping the spinners ban as it is today.

My reasoning is I don't believe people will ever record kills correctly if they are the type of people that would do it to begin with. It isn't always about giving info to other hunters. For some reason we have alot of hunters that don't trust the dnr and they don't want them to have accurate info. I don't understand it but that is the way it is.

This debate goes on in the whitetail forum yearly. Some want mandatory reports for whitetail harvest. Those against cite dozens if articles from states where the biologists quit trusting their mandatory check numbers and went back to survey based methodology...... because lack of hunter compliance.


----------



## flighthunter (Nov 21, 2005)

DirtySteve said:


> The app on my phone doesn't allow me the option To vote for some reason but put me down for bringing back up to date kill charts. You can also put me down for keeping the spinners ban as it is today.
> 
> My reasoning is I don't believe people will ever record kills correctly if they are the type of people that would do it to begin with. It isn't always about giving info to other hunters. For some reason we have alot of hunters that don't trust the dnr and they don't want them to have accurate info. I don't understand it but that is the way it is.
> 
> This debate goes on in the whitetail forum yearly. Some want mandatory reports for whitetail harvest. Those against cite dozens if articles from states where the biologists quit trusting their mandatory check numbers and went back to survey based methodology...... because lack of hunter compliance.


this is why we lost the dnr fish stocking program on our lake. the locals didn't want to report accurate info, so everyone loses. I don't get it, but I also don't wear a tinfoil hat.


----------



## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

I don't recall the charts giving me any earth shattering info. It's obvious this was pushed by the regulars. If scumbag low life morons were lying about their kill data then they should be punished. Instead they accommodated them. As it was stated, they are just delayed now. The only thing I find funny is people trying to act like it wasn't pushed by the regulars. Come on. It's obvious who pushed for it.


----------



## stackemup (Oct 31, 2011)

A 1/4 of the waterfowl hunts I do are at Shi, or the Todd farm. I could care less about kill charts. I just want the convenience of showing up, and picking what I think will afford me the opportunity to see, and hopefully call in ducks. Now, if you posted who all the over calling skybusters were going to be, I would be all over that...I see it both ways as far as the poll. Don't think I'm insulting anyone's intelligence, but anyone worth their salt can figure out where your best opportunity is to kill a few birds on any managed area. Each of the 4 that I've been to have either people working there, or enough posted info to make a better than educated pin the tail on the zone best bet. 

Let's just go hunting already.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

craigrh13 said:


> I don't recall the charts giving me any earth shattering info. It's obvious this was pushed by the regulars. If scumbag low life morons were lying about their kill data then they should be punished. Instead they accommodated them. As it was stated, they are just delayed now. The only thing I find funny is people trying to act like it wasn't pushed by the regulars. Come on. It's obvious who pushed for it.


lol, wasn't pushed by the regulars. DNR did it. This is what i'm talkin about right there. Everyone so worried about the regulars/locals....this has nothing to do with them.


----------



## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> lol, wasn't pushed by the regulars. DNR did it. This is what i'm talkin about right there. Everyone so worried about the regulars/locals....this has nothing to do with them.


Oh I'm not worried by it. I could care less about the kill charts. When they were available to see and not it hasn't made a difference to me. For the most parr I know where I'm going anyways without regards to anything else. Did the flats committee hold a vote on this issue?


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

craigrh13 said:


> Oh I'm not worried by it. I could care less about the kill charts. When they were available to see and not it hasn't made a difference to me. For the most parr I know where I'm going anyways without regards to anything else. Did the flats committee hold a vote on this issue?


i had a problem with what you said. quoted below. why do you say this stuff when you have 0 knowledge of what or who made the rule? you have 0 clue how it went down but you still try to get a jab in.



craigrh13 said:


> It's obvious this was pushed by the regulars.


----------



## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i had a problem with what you said. quoted below. why do you say this stuff when you have 0 knowledge of what or who made the rule? you have 0 clue how it went down but you still try to get a jab in.


I'm not trying to get a jab in. I'm asking if the group had a vote on it. You are right. I really don't know. I really don't care either. Like I said. I see both sides of the subject. I just think it's a little far fetched that the regulars didn't have anything to do with kill boards being pulled/delayed.


----------



## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

I do not know about how it was done at Shiawassee but DNR folks at Harsens check station told it was it was voted at a meeting with DNR and Harsens Island waterfowl hunter Association. So far poll result show they pull a fast one on rest of us. Thanks for all your effort and funds you are providing to managed areas. but when asking for a rule change please consider rest of us. It is still a state run hunting area and not a private hunt club.


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

fsamie1 said:


> I do not know about how it was done at Shiawassee but DNR folks at Harsens check station told it was it was voted at a meeting with DNR and Harsens Island waterfowl hunter Association. So far poll result show they pull a fast one on rest of us. Thanks for all your effort and funds you are providing to managed areas. but when asking for a rule change please consider rest of us. It is still a state run hunting area and not a private hunt club.


Pretty small sample. 

I one needs charts to hunt one could be in the wrong game. It's about the fun, the experience, not the limit. Read the wind, better yet, don't depend on managed areas. Branch out. There is lots of good, even better hunting out there, in areas that are not managed.


----------



## Bigeejakes (Nov 11, 2011)

fsamie1 said:


> I do not know about how it was done at Shiawassee but DNR folks at Harsens check station told it was it was voted at a meeting with DNR and Harsens Island waterfowl hunter Association. So far poll result show they pull a fast one on rest of us. Thanks for all your effort and funds you are providing to managed areas. but when asking for a rule change please consider rest of us. It is still a state run hunting area and not a private hunt club.


It's not a fast one when it is a public meeting between a state agency and an association that anyone can join (as far as I know). The associations are a pretty good representation of the people who use the areas - and are not what I would consider a private club... Although most of them put in enough work that maybe it should be a requirement for people to volunteer 1hour a year in order to use it... We would all have more appreciation for the work that goes into it.... 

Plus, you expect them to just send out a survey to all duck hunters? That's a good use of money and resources, when you would now have hunters that have never visited these areas voting on something they'll never see.

This post is like saying that Obama pulled a fast one to become president. We all have a say, but if you aren't present for the vote, you really don't have any room to complain.

I'm not currently a member of these associations either... But I give my support where I can, the associations are the people who care most about these areas and we're lucky to have them.

Moral of the story, if you want to make these decisions, be a part of the association, volunteer to help the area (or help financially), go to meetings and get elected and get a job on the board.

That's what I think


----------



## Brougham (Jan 29, 2010)

Public Managed Land. Public info. If a kill chart gets a few more people using the area, it validates the money spent there on staff, equipment, and daily operations. Great place for the 1-5 days a season hunter. Some spots are easy in/out access. Most have informative staff and steer novice hunters towards success . They spend $$ and count as a Michigan Waterfowler when DNR considers where to spend OUR money . So I'd say why not post stats? And with computers making life so easy, why not post daily? Experienced hunters will adjust to daily changing weather conditions and hunt zones accordingly. Or hunt some place else. Lot's of non-draw public land to choose from.


----------



## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

I really do not care if the kill charts exist or not. If they were available, I would most certainly look at them and I cannot deny that they may influence my decision in a drawing.

How public should these Kill Charts be? Should we have them posted daily to the net? I do not live close to a managed area but would be interested if I had go if I knew that some zones were really getting the birds. 

Would it be a good idea to post the kill charts to the net of have the DNR develop an app that we could subscribe to for our cell phones?


----------



## WoodyMG (May 29, 2013)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i could not have said it better. it feels like we are fighting over welfare or no welfare here. lmao.


Welfare is something you get for nothing, generally something other people have paid for. 

As duck hunters in Michigan we all pay taxes and fees that pay for the managed areas. 

What you are saying is like saying they shouldn't provide maps for the train in Chicago. It's up to you to ride it around a couple of times and figure out were it goes. The locals of course would know what train to use, but someone from Nebraska would have no idea. That'd be stupid as f***. 

You'll notice the only people agreeing with you are people like you who have the ability to scout it regularly. 

It is not yours more than it is someone's who lives in Traverse City. WE ALL PAY FOR IT.

If you want to hunt some place without competition get off your a** and find some private property. Bingo hunts are nothing more than duck SHOOTING in the first place. They're handed to you on silver plater and you have the audacity to complain about it. If you were to buy or lease some property, drop a well, build a blind, plant corn, flood it, and let it sit 5 years before you hunt so ducks imprint then you can complain about how access is managed and how information is shared.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

thanks for the advice woody. didn't know i was being so selfish guarding these kill numbers. Last time i checked i was one of the few on this board that gave information freely VIA PM to any newbie or even experienced hunter that wanted it. But f'it, i'll just clamp up and really turn into a local. Been on this board for 15 years, i've never been called selfish when it comes to the flats (unless you don't know me)...i've probably taken/guided 20-30 seperate groups off this board who were trying to learn the place. I've volunteered guided flats hunts for guys that never been there before. I've taught them as much as i can. But i'm selfishly guarding those kill numbers for my personal gain. moronic post woody.

last year DNR made decision to pull harsens numbers (delay them). I believe the reason is because it went over well at SRSGA. kill numbers started being accurately reflected across the board. DNR got more accurate data. SRSGA has been missing those numbers for like 4-5 years now.....Fsamie comes along pissed off about it. I explain why, he don't like it....and repeatedly insults the local associations instead of joining one so he has a voice. This thread was a big attention whore attempt and he gets a pissing match on a little corner of the internet that 99.9% of the hunters don't see.

i personally could care less if anyone gets to keep or not keep their numbers. I think its funny watching guys who hunt there regularly complain about it.


----------



## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I'd rather sit in my blind with the pooch not seeing anything than hunt a "managed area ". 
My experiences with managed areas have generally been good but I've had some truly awful days too.


----------



## WoodyMG (May 29, 2013)

Read the last paragraph carefully it is directed at both sides of the argument.


----------



## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

The kill charts can be manipulated to a certain degree. We used to take zones that rarely had any birds killed in it and load it up with 34-36 dozen decoys, have 6 very proficient callers in the zone and hunt it all week and the numbers would go way up in that zone. People would see that and figure the birds were really working that area and go out with there 2 1/2 dozen decoys and never get a fly over. But it took pressure off the areas that were really good. I really don't mind the kill charts either way, but rarely pay attention to them unless the above was happening.


----------



## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

denyag said:


> what was the rational to stop posting am pm charts


There are quiet a few people belonging to waterfowl associations that hunts Harsens daily. That is the only place they hunt. I usually go twice a week and every time I am there, they are there. bad draw in the morning, they come back in afternoon. Therefore, they know what zones are the duck using daily. They decided to get rid of the charts so casual hunter do not have a clue what zone to pick so if they do not have a good draw, they can still go to a decent zone. In 2014, I was posting kill charts on this forum for out of towners to see how hunting is if they decide to drive a long distance to Harsens. That, I believe, did it. Since these people work closely with DNR and contribute time and money to make the area better, DNR tend to listen to them. *"thank you for you time and efforts".* So they banned the kill charts just for their own self interest kind of Harsens is their private hunting club. I am sure they are going to tell you bunch of bogus reasons but I do not and you should not believe them ever. Most people like the kill charts, see the survey, but do not speak up against good old boy clubs because they tend to gang on people with different opinion. I have a thick skin and do not care about their personal attacks buy they say I do it because I want attention and *like to hear insults from them*, last sentence is a joke,


----------



## Lurker (Jan 25, 2009)

fsamie1 said:


> There are quiet a few people belonging to waterfowl associations that hunts Harsens daily. That is the only place they hunt. I usually go twice a week and every time I am there, they are there. bad draw in the morning, they come back in afternoon. Therefore, they know what zones are the duck using daily. They decided to get rid of the charts so casual hunter do not have a clue what zone to pick so if they do not have a good draw, they can still go to a decent zone. In 2014, I was posting kill charts on this forum for out of towners to see how hunting is if they decide to drive a long distance to Harsens. That, I believe, did it. Since these people work closely with DNR and contribute time and money to make the area better, DNR tend to listen to them. *"thank you for you time and efforts".* So they banned the kill charts just for their own self interest kind of Harsens is their private hunting club. I am sure they are going to tell you bunch of bogus reasons but I do not and you should not believe them ever. Most people like the kill charts, see the survey, but do not speak up against good old boy clubs because they tend to gang on people with different opinion. I have a thick skin and do not care about their personal attacks buy they say I do it because I want attention and *like to hear insults from them*, last sentence is a joke,



so it's your fault they got rid of them.....
so John and the other counter guys probably misdirect people when they are asked what zone would they recommend, especially on the days they are in the draw. 

it was the guy on the grassy knoll


----------



## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

A zone is only as good as your neighbor*

*7-11 or duck dynasty gang


----------



## flighthunter (Nov 21, 2005)

Divers Down said:


> A zone is only as good as your neighbor*
> 
> *7-11 or duck dynasty gang


I took a couple classes at schoolcraft this year so i can ask those guys their secrets. figured if you speak their native tongue, much better chances of getting the good stuff.


----------



## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

So the DNR pays more attention to the association that supports the area than to the occasional hunter? Blasphemy!

Unless you heard them flat out say "let's screw the once a year hunter", I would be hesitant to discuss their motives. Maybe someone from the group can offer the other side of the story?

Your hunt there, everyone's hunt there is better because these groups exist. It's one thing to bite the hand that feeds, but to **** in it afterwards. Enough.


----------



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> So the DNR pays more attention to the association that supports the area than to the occasional hunter? Blasphemy!


LOL!!! Why am I hearing some voices from the past...from back when we proposed the spinner ban at Shiawassee...saying "well, they didn't ask me", like the DNR is going to knock on doors and get input from each and every person out there on every policy decision. No, what they do is listen to the masses...to the organized groups and associations. Why do people not understand what I've been saying for many years...there is power in numbers, and 50, 100, or 1000 voices carry a whole lot more weight than 1 voice. What part of that makes no sense????


----------



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

fsamie1 said:


> ...So they banned the kill charts just for their own self interest kind of Harsens is their private hunting club....


Where's that little broken record emoji?


----------



## Jerry Lamb (Aug 3, 2015)

just ducky said:


> Where's that little broken record emoji?


I don't know but I hear carousel music and clown laughter. A truism: no matter what, where, how, when or why, at least ONE butt gets hurt....


----------



## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

fsamie1 said:


> In 2014, I was posting kill charts on this forum for out of towners to see how hunting is if they decide to drive a long distance to Harsens. That, I believe, did it.


I would think that posting the kill charts on this public forum would be a violation of the forum rules.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/f...es-please-read-new-members-start-here.320556/


----------



## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i remember doing it as a kid so late 70's...early 80's maybe. not sure when they stopped doing it exactly but its been 20+ years ago.


When I started duck hunting, some of my first experiences were at Fish Point in the late 1970's. You were required to take your birds to the check station for inspection. The technicians would remove the gizzards and examine them for the presence of lead shot. 

Shiawasssee River State Game area was also one of the sites where studies of lead ingestion and also the effectiveness of lead and steel shot were being evaluated back then.

This past season at FP, you were asked to bring in mallards and black ducks for inspection. The techs were aging the birds to do a recruitment study (how many young birds were present in the population).


----------



## BladeRunner6 (Jun 3, 2015)

This is pretty comical, I have hunted Harsens daily since I have grown up and through years i have learned a lot talking to people you c there consistently or listening to a story being told at the shack. Keeping mental notes of what zones are genaerlly good at certain times of the year or with what wind etc which you learn over time or after a couple years..those facts will go a lot farther then any kill sheet you will ever see in my opinion...I started hunting when the kill sheets were posted every day and I would run in the shack look at them and make my decision off them but after a few years of hunting the draw I realized that it has more to do with the hunter in the zone then the spot that the duck per say want to be......as far as people stating that clubs that help fund the island draw are trying to make it there own little private hunt club I think is ridiculous...those volunteers keep that place running If u didn't have them putting in there time and raising money for equipment seed maintenance etc.....no one on here would have anything to b*** about because there wouldn't be a draw....just my 2 cents


----------



## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Remember who laid down the coin to keep the check station at Harsens open beyond the afternoon draw at 11:30? Never shot a wood duck there until MDHA inundated the area with nesting boxes.


----------



## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

well Kid, how do you want to settle this issue? you do not like my poll because it was done on internet or not enough people voted. Do you have any suggestion? I am thinking to ask John Darling to do the survey at the check station. When hunters come to the counter to sign in, he can ask them to answer the poll. I know and am sure you are a good guy, helping with managed area and helping hunters. The issue I have is that you think you are always right and there is only one opinion and that is yours and no one should have another opinion because you have already spoken. I sure like to settle this issue and any doable suggestion is welcome.


----------



## Boyd (Aug 19, 2006)

I've seen people saying that you need to scout. Come on, managed units are for those that might not have a lot of time. So you do get top 5 the first time you are out on Saturday morning. No time to scout, birds work different in am and pm, one zone might be hot and the one next to it is slow. Kill sheets didn't hurt anyone and yes at Harsens it was voted on by HIWHA. They put a lot of money into the unit but not quite sure how it works as the money is from selling the corn mostly I believe. They help out but it shouldn't be decided by 20 guys


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

fsamie1 said:


> well Kid, how do you want to settle this issue? you do not like my poll because it was done on internet or not enough people voted. Do you have any suggestion? I am thinking to ask John Darling to do the survey at the check station. When hunters come to the counter to sign in, he can ask them to answer the poll. I know and am sure you are a good guy, helping with managed area and helping hunters. The issue I have is that you think you are always right and there is only one opinion and that is yours and no one should have another opinion because you have already spoken. I sure like to settle this issue and any doable suggestion is welcome.


i know the best way to settle it. stop complaining so much and go shoot birds like everyone else. if you want to make changes go get involved (just like everyone else has told ya). I personally think that just because you buy a license doesn't give you the right bitch about stuff. go make a difference, stop bitching about making a difference. Stop tearing down the guys that put blood, sweat and tears into these places and go join them.


----------



## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Another thing I overlooked. The clearing of the access cuts in the East Marsh. That was not cheap! MDHA laid out many tens of thousands for that. Looking forward to what the new changes will make!

Since the ban, how much has the harvest declined? If spinning wings work so well must have fell off drastically! Numbers?

One of the biggest efforts put forth by these organizations is Hunter Education. Hunters that belong to these groups tend to be more passionate about waterfowling. This is one reason why they are polled for the general opinions. The final decisions are made by the DNR themselves. Buying a license and finding your way to the counter doesn't hold the same weight in my book

Kill sheets do pull the masses from in front of the counter, allowing others to get up there to sign up.


----------



## Birddoggem (Jul 25, 2016)

fsamie1 said:


> well Kid, how do you want to settle this issue? you do not like my poll because it was done on internet or not enough people voted. Do you have any suggestion? I am thinking to ask John Darling to do the survey at the check station. When hunters come to the counter to sign in, he can ask them to answer the poll. I know and am sure you are a good guy, helping with managed area and helping hunters. The issue I have is that you think you are always right and there is only one opinion and that is yours and no one should have another opinion because you have already spoken. I sure like to settle this issue and any doable suggestion is welcome.


I'm not real sure your serious after some of the stuff you wrote here. I think your reading the poll wrong less than half the voters like the sheats.


----------



## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Now I don't know anything about Harsens but don't they have zones that are year after year the most consistent? Like you can look at the year end reports and see a few zones that every year produce the best. Like South Prior at Shi seems to be the best or 2nd best every year. Zone 25 at FP seems to kill the most every year. I feel as if you can look at the year end reports and get a pretty good idea on where the best zones are. Obviously that will change at certain points of the year but that could also be reflected on the order of zones picked sheets they post daily.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

craigrh13 said:


> Now I don't know anything about Harsens but don't they have zones that are year after year the most consistent? Like you can look at the year end reports and see a few zones that every year produce the best. Like South Prior at Shi seems to be the best or 2nd best every year. Zone 25 at FP seems to kill the most every year. I feel as if you can look at the year end reports and get a pretty good idea on where the best zones are. Obviously that will change at certain points of the year but that could also be reflected on the order of zones picked sheets they post daily.


south prior only shows up on the charts like its the best year after year because it gets the most traffic (easiest access) and is first to flood.  

58/60, 64/66, 34, 42, 13, 10, 11, 2 are the no wind picks.

north and south prior dominance depends on crop rotations. South prior has same planting each year. and they are static. North prior is share crop so beans and corn are rotated. When north is flooded and able to hunt determines a lot of how the season goes there.


----------



## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

We wouldn't need kill sheets if everyone posted the inside info like the above.

So I'll bite. Fennville. Early in the year zone 7, later in the year zone 5 or the east side, if the birds are using the highbanks and the Ottawa pull the NE corner, and 3A is always worth a try.


----------

