# how is the scoring done on a fun trial?



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> So true.
> I have witnessed handlers call their dogs name a hundred times in the twenty minute brace and the dog never flinch once as if it cared.
> That looks bad.


So screaming at your dog for 30 minutes is not a good thing :SHOCKED:


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Yes, I totally agree the comments about handling. You guys are dead on.I will say this though. These folks starting this game at this level will have have tough time comprehending another persons handling job in most venues. Really unless you are standing right next to the person handling the dog it is tough to understand why the handler makes some of the calls they do. I guess what I am trying to explain is for now, until these folks get to the next level, I would just try to keep it simple. Obviously they need a dog that responds to the basic commands to get them around the course. Get your dogs good and solid on the basics for handling and you should be equipped well enough to be competitive in these trials.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

*RGS Score card*
(100) Response to Handler (Obedience)
100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10


(100) Ground Coverage (Hunt)
100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10


(100) Bird Finds
1. 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10

2. 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10

(100) Retrieves 
1. 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10

2. 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10


Just came in for lunch after some training. (3 springers) and the RGS scorecard keep sticking in my head. Correct if I'm wrong but I see no scoring allowance for steadiness to wing or shot or honoring of the bracemates retrieve???
If not a steady dog event how do the braces work?...Or is it shoot'em up goat rodeo with speed to down bird rewarded with placement????

If this is unsteady event then really it is a started puppie event, any dog with the proper basics should score well.

Dogs that do not score well then would be dogs that were asked to hunt( though not gun shy) before they had been given a chance to learn their jobs, whether that job was pointing or retrieveing....
*Train your dog and birds will come*


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

The reason honoring was taking out of the scoring was some braces where not giving the chance. If a persons dog found and handled there two birds with in the first 5 minutes they where told to leach up there dog and where not given the chance to honor
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

N M Mechanical said:


> *The reason honoring was taking out of the scoring was some braces where not giving the chance. If a persons dog found and handled there two birds with in the first 5 minutes they where told to leach up there dog and where not given the chance to honor*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok How about steadiness? Honoring is applicable at the "point of contact' and also while your brace mate is out on a retrieve, How is that scored? Or is it still a footrace to the downed bird...?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

gundogguy said:


> Just came in for lunch after some training. (3 springers) and the RGS scorecard keep sticking in my head. Correct if I'm wrong but I see no scoring allowance for steadiness to wing or shot or honoring of the brace mates retrieve???
> If not a steady dog event how do the braces work?...Or is it shoot'em up goat rodeo with speed to down bird rewarded with placement????
> 
> If this is unsteady event then really it is a started puppie event, any dog with the proper basics should score well.
> ...


Hal,

I invite you to attend one of our events, these are non-sanctioned gun dog trials, and they are intended to build a culture of events through Ruffed Grouse Society of Michigan. Provide a fun competitive environment, with that said, the scoring is based loosely on NSTRA, correct me if I'm wrong but NSTRA does not have a steady requirement and they produce some very fine dogs. Our format is for the gun dogs, sure at the end of the year it gets competitive, once you pay your entry fee and have the guts to bring your dog to the line, it gets competitive. It is a trial not a test as you know. 

It is not a shoot em up trial; most folks command their dog to be steady so as not to mess up a brace mate. The Braces work just fine, we all do our best not to mess up our brace mate, if your dog steals a retrieve, or steals a point or flush it is going to count against you and you will not place, whether there are points or not. Many of the dogs are steady to commands or steady through training as not to interfere with the brace mate. Trial chairs do their best to design a course as to allow judges to watch both dogs but give each dog a chance to work "their side of the course." It does not always work that way but that is not the point. It takes a solid brace mate to win also, IMO, again part of the luck of the draw David Lloyd speaks about. RGS trials judging stops at the flush and starts again when the bird hits the dirt. If you miss one of the two birds you paid for, you just cost your dog retrieve points. 

If we started making the requirements stricter and included highly titled dogs, then we would reduce participation through intimidation greatly IMO, 99% of hunters do not feel they need a steady dog, but most don't want a bird drunk out of control dog either.

But you if you think the dogs are winning are nothing more than at a puppy level, you should come watch and decide for yourself. If the owners wanted to steady these dogs or thought there was value in it, they would do it, trust me.

I was second last year, got beat by a dog that had a back, I never had a chance to back, the judge told me to leash up my dog 12 minutes into my brace, I had as clean a run as I have ever had in one of these, and I dare say the last five years I have had the dominate flushing dog on the circuit. I should have recieved a call back IMO, but those were the rules then and the dog that won, deserved to win even though my finds were scored higher, my retrieves were scored higher and we were very close in points on obedience and ground coverage. 

I also believe it got much more difficult to win the end of the year trial when we split the divisions, at least for me. The year I won the whole thing in 2007 we had 16 pointing dogs running and 6 flushers, no offense to the pointing dog owners but more than half were not going to have the obedience displayed and the reliable retrieves that a flushing dog is going to have. Now they are split, every flushing dog at the end of the year trial is going to retrieve to hand at some level; this makes it more difficult to win because it increases the number of dogs with 200 points available to them.

Justin Somsel has as fine a dog as I have seen, and I know Justin is a wild bird hunter first and foremost as am I and most of the folks that placed on Saturday.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

gundogguy said:


> Ok How about steadiness? Honoring is applicable at the "point of contact' and also while your brace mate is out on a retrieve, How is that scored? Or is it still a footrace to the downed bird...?


 
This past Sunday, when my brace mate was out on a retrieve, I gave my dog a remote sit, she sat there and watched the other dog make the retrieve then we went on our way towards finding our birds. Had she gone in and stole the retrieve or flagged the other dog, I would have had reduced "responce" to handler score, and would not have placed. 

Eliminating steadiness scores makes the playing field more level, that said, your dog needs to have enough control through handling not to interfere with it's brace mate.


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> This past Sunday, when my brace mate was out on a retrieve, I gave my dog a remote sit, she sat there and watched the other dog make the retrieve then we went on our way towards finding our birds. Had she gone in and stole the retrieve or flagged the other dog, I would have had reduced "responce" to handler score, and would not have placed.
> 
> Eliminating steadiness scores makes the playing field more level, that said, your dog needs to have enough control through handling not to interfere with it's brace mate.


Fritz

Would a dog that is steady be scored higher on obedience or is completely not considered? 



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## mudbat2128 (Sep 7, 2004)

michgundog said:


> Fritz
> 
> Would a dog that is steady be scored higher on obedience or is completely not considered?
> 
> ...


Its defiantly not going to hurt you from what I've seen.


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

At an RGS trial, is there a way to give a dog a fair chance who's bracemate is ripping birds, blowing up the field, and not responding so it can be leashed? Or is the answer, that's just the luck of the draw , thanks for your entry fee, better luck next draw? 

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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Mr. Botek said:


> At an RGS trial, is there a way to give a dog a fair chance who's bracemate is ripping birds, blowing up the field, and not responding so it can be leashed? Or is the answer, that's just the luck of the draw , thanks for your entry fee, better luck next draw?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 
I can only speak to my regional trials that I have chaired, my instructions to the judges would be to make sure you got your fair shake, either through a call back or through asking the other dog to be leashed up and extending your brace. To get this extended amount of time though, it needs to be clear your dog is working hard and honest to his commands and birds. 

There are always more birds on the course than appears, so if you need an extra 5 minutes and I was judging, I would consider that. 

BradU20 planted birds on Saturday, and asked me where I found my two, then mentioned he had not planted any birds in those spots for quite some time.

But sometimes unfortuneately, it is as you described. A good brace mate can be vital to success, but if you dog can handle a poor handler and other dog and finds it's birds, it will look really good!


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Mr. Botek said:


> At an RGS trial, is there a way to give a dog a fair chance who's bracemate is ripping birds, blowing up the field, and not responding so it can be leashed? Or is the answer, that's just the luck of the draw , thanks for your entry fee, better luck next draw?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Good question.

I was a part of a situation very close to this at one event. I opted to go a completely direction with my dog and break away from the other handler and dog.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Mr. Botek said:


> At an RGS trial, is there a way to give a dog a fair chance who's bracemate is ripping birds, blowing up the field, and not responding so it can be leashed? Or is the answer, that's just the luck of the draw , thanks for your entry fee, better luck next draw?


Dean, 
Don't let one bad experience keep you away from RGS trials.

I don't think I walked your brace, but if the scenario was as bad as you described, the other dog should probably have been picked up. If your dog was showing signs of placing, they could also have setup a call back to take a better look at things. 

I've put on 5 of these now, ran in four, and judged one. So let's just say I have first hand experience with about 100 braces of dogs being ran in the last 5 years. Of those, I have had 4 instances of a handler having serious issues with their bracemate: yours, one at this year's GDOY, and one in 2010 (this handler eventually leashed his own dog). It honestly is not typically an issue.


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanks for answering my question Steelhead & Ruger.

You've got a good memory Brad! I leashed on my own at another event to do my best to avoid ruining the run for the other participant. Thanks for your honesty.

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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Question for the flushing dog guys...

What happens when two handlers have similar sounding whistles (for the whistle trained dogs)... ever been an issue?


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

FieldWalker said:


> Question for the flushing dog guys...
> 
> What happens when two handlers have similar sounding whistles (for the whistle trained dogs)... ever been an issue?


Yes. Sometimes your dog will take a command off another whistle and normally the judges understand the situation. I have found that my dogs hunt almost exclusively with other handlers that use whistles with some being the same tone. It is amazing how good the dogs become at knowing your location and whether it was you who blew the whistle or not. 




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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> *Hal,*
> 
> *I invite you to attend one of our events, these are non-sanctioned gun dog trials, and they are intended to build a culture of events through Ruffed Grouse Society of Michigan. Provide a fun competitive environment, with that said, the scoring is based loosely on NSTRA, correct me if I'm wrong but NSTRA does not have a steady requirement and they produce some very fine dogs. Our format is for the gun dogs, sure at the end of the year it gets competitive, once you pay your entry fee and have the guts to bring your dog to the line, it gets competitive. It is a trial not a test as you know. *
> 
> ...




Wow Steelhead thank-you for that thoughtful explanation of the cultural event that RGS Trials are... That's great, I understand completely.
But really all i was looking for was does steadiness and honoring count for any thing and you did a fine job of answering that... as it has been said it is really up the luck of the draw.


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## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

I just hope that at the finals next year we can get more then a acre to hunt so it is more about how the dog does hunting birds instead of being first dog over the hill. Brown city feilds were alot nicer to run so you and your dog could hunt by your self instead of falling a dog that is 150yrds over the hill already on point before u make the turn up the hill.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

smokinbritts said:


> I just hope that at the finals next year we can get more then a acre to hunt so it is more about how the dog does hunting birds instead of being first dog over the hill. Brown city feilds were alot nicer to run so you and your dog could hunt by your self instead of falling a dog that is 150yrds over the hill already on point before u make the turn up the hill.


Next years spot is sweet. NM mechanical and I just finalized it last week. Heavy cover, rolling hills it's really going to be a challenge for all dogs.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

smokinbritts said:


> I just hope that at the finals next year we can get more then a acre to hunt so it is more about how the dog does hunting birds instead of being first dog over the hill. Brown city feilds were alot nicer to run so you and your dog could hunt by your self instead of falling a dog that is 150yrds over the hill already on point before u make the turn up the hill.



It was the same for everyone. So is your complaint that you did not have enough room for its range or the other dog had too much range
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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

smokinbritts said:


> I just hope that at the finals next year we can get more then a acre to hunt so it is more about how the dog does hunting birds instead of being first dog over the hill. Brown city feilds were alot nicer to run so you and your dog could hunt by your self instead of falling a dog that is 150yrds over the hill already on point before u make the turn up the hill.


That is why these events are based on two birds. A dog finds its two and it is asked to be leashed up or backtrack to see a little more handling. That way if a big running dog is paired with a closer working dog once the big running dog finds its two birds it is picked up giving the other dog the whole field to find their birds. It is nice to have a little room to spread out but ideally you still want to be close enough both judges can see each dog work. I have seen a lot of close working dogs be very successful in these events regardless of the field size. Every trial grounds have there holes and I think brad and his chapter did a very good job with what they had. 




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## brookie~freak (Jul 8, 2007)

BIGSP said:


> Next years spot is sweet. NM mechanical and I just finalized it last week. Heavy cover, rolling hills it's really going to be a challenge for all dogs.


Like this?


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

brookie~freak said:


> Like this?


The cover is even better this year. Thicker than the bet CRP I've hunted out west.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

brookie~freak said:


> Like this?


_Posted via Mobile Device_

But thicker


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## brookie~freak (Jul 8, 2007)

Oh of course. I haven't been out there yet this year but I know they put a lot of work into the fields and make it better every year.

Keep in mind this was mid to late winter after a big storm.


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## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

i know everybody ran the same feild and for the first tome i have ever went thought the trail went very good i just would like to see a little more room. Brad and his group did a great job not saying they didnt just feilds were a little tight


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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

A good brace mate can be vital to success, 

why thankyou Fritz.

as far as the tight quarters , I t was the same for all, so very fair. it gave a chance to show control. 
as Fritz warned me before we started, he would be quicker and streching out. not a problem as it worked out my dog was on birds first as Fritz and bella worked the thinner cover to the left and thus moved out of the spot kira was working with 2 bird finds. so in this case honnering was not part of the test. but keeping both dogs in their cover was and it worked well. I know that our score , or lack of it was due to the things that have been brought up and thankyou all for the great info on how I can help train an even better partner for next year. 
the problem with watching is 
1 you can not see much of the coarse
2 I did not know what to look for 
so if the 1st bird would have flown, if I would have shot the 2cd bird, if kira would not have dropped the bird 3 feet away. well I understand . this was a great help


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## Lloydboy (Jan 25, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> Next years spot is sweet. NM mechanical and I just finalized it last week. Heavy cover, rolling hills it's really going to be a challenge for all dogs.


Where are we running next year?


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Lloydboy said:


> Where are we running next year?


Wings and Rings in Zeeland.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

With all the questions that have came up about the judging would there be any interest in a "handlers clinic" where there could be some of the guys that sit at the table and set the rules and a judge or two?
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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Can't becoming too competetive take the "fun" out of "fun trial"?

I would hate to discourage some of the new handlers or those who have attended for years with limited success.

Im pretty new to this whole RGS trial thing, but if i had one critism it would be about the limitations on dogs who can run. I understand a dog with a title within several other organizations or any NSTRA points can not run. I totally agree with limits to keep this set up for the "hunter, or small beans guys out to have fun".

IMHO this excusion would include prior GDOY winners (the dog) should be restricted. From the entries ive observed including the ability of dogs entered, a dog who has accomplished this is likely as capable as a dog who as earned a couple points as a NSTRA or other trial club dog without a title. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> With all the questions that have came up about the judging would there be any interest in a "handlers clinic" where there could be some of the guys that sit at the table and set the rules and a judge or two?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you can have it online Nick, in this format!

THanks Fritz


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## bbutler (Sep 3, 2008)

N M Mechanical said:


> With all the questions that have came up about the judging would there be any interest in a "handlers clinic" where there could be some of the guys that sit at the table and set the rules and a judge or two?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I don't know about going to a clinic. But, I would be interested in a conference call that would give us an idea of what we are being judged on. 

This is not complaining, however, like the original poster I do have some questions.

1. Is there a set way you are supposed to run a dog in a fun trial? I have hunted with many flushers and have never seen a flusher hunt the way some of the handlers worked their dogs. If we are supposed to make our dog sit when the other dog flushes a bird that would be nice to know.(even if your dog does not pay attention to the other dogs bird.) 
2. If you are running in a brace where two hunters and two flushing dogs are hunting side by side, less than 20 yds apart, should the dogs not cover both hunters. In a typical hunting situation, which I thought these trials are supposed to emulate, aren't flushing dogs supposed to cover both hunters. (This is the reason the format was changed last year during the GDOY trial. The handlers were instructed to go different directions.)

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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> I think you can have it online Nick, in this format!
> 
> THanks Fritz


I have always thought it was pretty clear but for anyone that has put on one of these "events" we get the emails the following days after just something I was thinking about while taking a break along a beautiful two track
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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Or if you have questions just show up to your local chapter meetings
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## bbutler (Sep 3, 2008)

The rules are clear. However, if I only need to talk to my dog once during a run is the score going to be lower than a dog that is told to do 10-15 commands during a run? Again, just an observation it seems the dogs that are handled more by the owner place higher.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

smokinbritts said:


> I just hope that at the finals next year we can get more then a acre to hunt so it is more about how the dog does hunting birds instead of being first dog over the hill. Brown city feilds were alot nicer to run so you and your dog could hunt by your self instead of falling a dog that is 150yrds over the hill already on point before u make the turn up the hill.


Like BIGSP said, it doesn't matter how quickly the other dog find it's birds. You get your two, he gets his two and your done.
Hunting by yourself was never a goal when I set up the course. A dog that can't hunt with a bracemate shouldn't place in these trials.



Rugergundog said:


> IMHO this excusion would include prior GDOY winners (the dog) should be restricted. From the entries ive observed including the ability of dogs entered, a dog who has accomplished this is likely as capable as a dog who as earned a couple points as a NSTRA or other trial club dog without a title.


A dog that has earned "a couple points as a NSTRA" dog is allowed to compete. A NSTRA titled dog with a championship is where we draw the line. 



bbutler said:


> I don't know about going to a clinic. But, I would be interested in a conference call that would give us an idea of what we are being judged on.
> 
> This is not complaining, however, like the original poster I do have some questions.


If you go back and look at every email I have ever sent to a fun trial participant, I end with _don't hesitate to call or email me with any questions you might have._ I mean it.  It is much easier to deal with all these questions before you get to the line.



bbutler said:


> 1. Is there a set way you are supposed to run a dog in a fun trial? I have hunted with many flushers and have never seen a flusher hunt the way some of the handlers worked their dogs. If we are supposed to make our dog sit when the other dog flushes a bird that would be nice to know.(even if your dog does not pay attention to the other dogs bird.)


You saw how some of the dogs that placed ran their dogs? That would be a good place to start. It looks pretty impressive when a guy can sit his dog when there is a dead bird laying on the ground. It's a given it is going to take to find and two solid retrieves to place. It's the little things that separate 1st from 4th.



bbutler said:


> 2. If you are running in a brace where two hunters and two flushing dogs are hunting side by side, less than 20 yds apart, should the dogs not cover both hunters. In a typical hunting situation, which I thought these trials are supposed to emulate, aren't flushing dogs supposed to cover both hunters. (This is the reason the format was changed last year during the GDOY trial. The handlers were instructed to go different directions.)


Yes, there is going to be some overlap, but not the majority of the run.
I don't really want to discuss another RGS trial, but you can't judge a trial fairly if both judges aren't able to evaluate every dog that is running.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

bbutler said:


> I don't know about going to a clinic. But, I would be interested in a conference call that would give us an idea of what we are being judged on.
> 
> This is not complaining, however, like the original poster I do have some questions.
> 
> ...


The variable in all of these trials is the judges and the course that is run on. I think it speaks volumes for a dog that can adapt to any situation such as a tight or open course or the ability to run smaller east west when there is another brace mate in somewhat close proximity. As far as the question regarding the dog working in front of both gunners I would say that is not a desired trait in this format where your brace mate is also working a dog. Your dog should work the space you are afforded maybe crossing edges with the other dog in tighter areas. 

As far as sitting to honor the other dog it should not matter much due to honoring being removed from the scoring, with certain judges you may see a higher point total for obedience but in my mind as long as your dog does not cause interference it is no harm no foul. 

The rules are pretty well spelled out in terms of where and what points are awarded for, after that it comes down to what catches the eye of the judge on any given day. 




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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

bbutler said:


> The rules are clear. However, if I only need to talk to my dog once during a run is the score going to be lower than a dog that is told to do 10-15 commands during a run? Again, just an observation it seems the dogs that are handled more by the owner place higher.


Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the dog and the judge.
A dog that is always where it is supposed to be, without a word, is nice.
A dog that responds immediately to its handler is nice, too.

You need to handle your dog enough to show its obedience, but not so much you are hacking it all over the course.

A dog that never needs a command may not have the drive or intensity to shine above the others.


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## bbutler (Sep 3, 2008)

Thanks, that answers most of my questions. 


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Everyone reading this, please take note of a few things...

So far we have people posting....
"the standards are too high"
"the standards are too low"
"we are a farce"
"we have no rules" (even though we do)
"this isn't fun"
"we are an embarrassment to RGS" (even though our format is being adopted by other states)

We cannot make everyone happy.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Yes it is a farce two german dogs placed
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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> Yes it is a farce two german dogs placed
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Next thing you know...the Loins will be winning the superbowl...lol

Hey, I have an idea, since everyone wants the whole format changed or tweaked...can we make it fit my dogs abilities...so maybe I could win?

But, seriously...some of these replies surprise me. I'll just leave it at that. 

I'd personally like to thank all of the folks that dedicate their time and energy to see these event happen. I've done a few, and it ain't that easy. Handed it off a few years ago to another RGS member and he's doing a fine job with it. Hope he doesn't read this and quit on me...and stick me with the whole thing again...

Brian.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

crosswind said:


> Another suggestion I would make for someone grooming their dog for one of the fun trials, would be to get your dog on the ground with another dog to get them used to working with some competition. If you don't subject your dog to some of that prior to these events you are likely setting him up for a meltdown. Dogs thrive on running with another dog. *They all generally turn it up a notch or two, that is what leads some to the creeping walking and taking birds out in these events. Expose them to some of those pressures before you throw them into that enviorment*.


Good suggestion Scott. Also, if you're dog can manage to overcome the temptation of another dog interfering (like blowing a back) it makes your dog look like a $million if he can manage to keep his composure in light of the pressure (I've been on _both_ sides of that situation).


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

I understand the rules and expectations just fine and think they are pretty simple....my point is there seems to be some discussion that others at least "claim" they don't know them. If they do or not honestly........i don't know. But to avoid future potential issues i think something along the lines of what you guys posted for what is expected could be either added to the flyer or even pointed out at a handler meeting just prior to dogs taking to the ground.

I do agree some will always find something to complain about, but i do suspect there are some newbies who have not attended many things like this that are truely just wanting to know


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## Hunter1526 (Jul 30, 2007)

First and foremost, I want to say a big thank you to everyone that helped plan and run the trial of Saturday. Unless you have been involved with planning and running something like this you have no idea the time and effort that is expended by many people. So for my part THANK YOU!

I was one who could not walk the course on Saturday, sue to a very uncomfortable bone spur on my left heel. So my son Brian and our dog Star, were on their own. I normally function as his gunner, and I ahev to say right here and now that I am proud of their performance, even though they did not place, they did well, Star fiound three birds in total, one hen pheasant up on top, and she found her two chukar. Had the Brian dropped the other bird the results might have been different, but we both understand the process and it was not their day on Saturday. 

Second, I want to give a huge congratulations to every dog that placed, of course my preference is flushers since I have two labs, but every dog that participated and placed earned their ranking. It is really great to go out and see so much good dog work, and to be associated with people who know dogs and enjoy spending their time hunting over them. To Ric and Fritz, I would say a whole hearted congratulations, they know their dogs, and their dogs are awesome to watch. These two guys are some of the most consumate grouse hunters I know and there dogs do it and do it well. I would love to have the opprotunity to hunt with them someday, to watch the dog work and to learn from their skills. I have had the unenviable challenge of being in a brace with them and they made it look so easy.

Third, and probably most importantly, I want to offer some words, on the roughly 10 pages of posts here on this topic. Let's get real here, we are all competitive by nature, but our dogs are only out to do what they have been trained to do and to please us. I sometimes think they know when they have disappointed us, but for the most part, they simply want to please us and they do a good job of that. The competition is not what this all about, if you want to compete and have titles, and ribbons, plaques, or name recognition, there are UKC, AKC, NAVDA, NRSTA, and a host of other organizations where this can be done. Does this mean I would not want to ever have a shot at the GDOY, no, I most certainly would like to have a shot at it and maybe someday, God Willing and on the perfect day, Star or Sky and their humans, might be able to make a run for it. Do I expect it to happen, NO, would it be a bonus, By all means, but is it the be all and end all, nope definitely not.

This is a trial for your dogs, yes, but most of all it is meant to for to have some quality time with your four legged best friend, to show what your dog can do, and to enjoy the comaraderie of others who have the same passion. Our four legged best friends are never with us long enough, so enjoy it, take a step back and enjoy watching the dog work. Sure the competition is great, but remember on any given day only one dog can win, and that dog had the best run of his or her life that day. 

If you don't like the rules, don't gripe about them on a public forum, go to the meeting and make some positive constructive comments for change. If you want the title, accolades and glory, visit some of the other trials and decide which you would rather participate in. For Brian Timothy (the younger) and Brian Sr. (the older) we will continue to do th RGS trials to support RGS and to enjoy the great dog work that we get to see. Maybe will even get to qualify to come back to GDOY next year, but if not we will continue to try. BUt most of all we will enjoy the fellowship of kindred spirits, dog people, they are the best.


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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

good grief guys, I am sorry this toke the tone it did buy some. I had a great time and talked and joked with some very nice people. I hope to keep doing so. the format was fine. thanks again to the wonderful insite from Fritz, Nick and is it Brian Butler, and others. I understand the Judges are busy thus the question on how I could do better. keep it fun as I think it is . a bragging rights game. and I am braggin because my dog was invited to play with the other hunters and their dogs. I liked the idea of a seminar be it on line or a clinic was good thanks Nick, and the idea that a brief statement from the judges before hand. I agree they have a task to chose the best dogs and thank heavens they do it for the love of the sport. I want to play again!


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Thanks for the kind words Mr. Butler, I appreciate it, your post is excellent also.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> Thanks for the kind words Mr. Butler, I appreciate it, your post is excellent also.


Ditto. And we appreciate your support of RGS.


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## Paco (Dec 18, 2006)

I often wonder about the name of this place.

I often find it anything but sportsman like.

Congrats to those that played and worked to put the event on.


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## GamebirdPreserve (Nov 21, 2006)

Paco said:


> I often wonder about the name of this place.
> 
> I often find it anything but sportsman like.
> 
> Congrats to those that played and worked to put the event on.




Oh my goodness! 

It is really a shame to see so many people criticize RGS Events that they have NEVER even been to! I do NOT understand the undertones here at all. This animosity goes WAY TOO DEEP ... 

Did everyone forget just what manners are? Evidently some were never taught any manners.* I was taught that if it is NOT NICE, do "NOT" say it!* It seems that some were not taught some simple tactfulness, such as keeping your thoughts to yourself, especially if it will offend someone. 

It does indeed take a lot of very hard work and volunteer hours from dozens of people to put on any successful event. Any public criticizing of that event will be taken personally and rightfully so. Understandably you will not please everyone, and viewpoints will differ from different participants. 

BUT IF YOU HAVE NOT BEEN TO A RGS FUN TRIAL, HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU HONESTLY HAVE ANY REASON TO COMMENT?

It is a FUN TRIAL and just that. Your dog has the chance to run and locate a couple of birds in the field and show you what they can do. *PLEASE HAVE FUN with it.* I know for a fact that many people come to these just to sit and mingle with the other dogs and dog lovers. They all have something in common with each other and it is nice to gather in the name of BIRD HUNTING .... PERIOD! There is some playful and fun competitiveness, or how else do you have winners? I do not think that too many people take this that seriously, it is mainly FOR FUN! 

A lot of bird hunters really do enjoy the FUN TRIALS and they are just that ... FUN!! For all of you who are talking that have not attended, I do not think that you have any grounds to criticize until you at least come visit one for yourself. Over the years, I found that they are all just a great group of bird dog lovers who come together with other bird dog owners and get their dogs out in the fields on some live birds for FUN. Making new bird hunting friends that all have a common thread and seeing the old friends are something that's very special. The comradery is eventually looked forward to at each future event, as well. Hanging around with all of the dogs and their owners and talking about what other bird hunters have been doing all year is just that ... REALLY FUN. Getting a chance to run your dogs on some live birds is a bonus for the participants. If you win that is exceptional, but I do not think that most come just to win. My honest opinion is that most come to get out and have a good time. 

Maybe the ones who are criticizing just do not know how to get out and have a good time with other bird dog owners and are jealous? I really cannot understand the comments on this thread otherwise. 

I understand that we all play at different levels, but that is okay. We still need to RESPECT EACH OTHER as fellow bird hunters. *"To each their own." *For goodness sake, keep doing what you are choosing to do if you like it, if not find something else .... but please keep your noses out of other people's business. This un-sportsman-like conduct is just that ... very un-sportsman-like. It is absolutely ridiculous and uncalled for. 

What is wrong with this thread? Lack of RESPECT for your fellow sportsman. Shame on you. 

*REMEMBER ... we are all on the same team as bird dog lovers and upland hunters! We need to stick together. *

*RGS keep up the great work! *


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## zeeke33 (Feb 7, 2009)

After reading till my eyes watered, I've still got a couple things I'd like cleared-up.

1 Birds used at "fun trial" might be any upland variety that is availble?

2 They may run dogs in braces or singles, depending on trial venue?

3 Backing is "optional"?

Thanks, I think that should do it, oh wait! what about bitches in heat?


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

zeeke33 said:


> After reading till my eyes watered, I've still got a couple things I'd like cleared-up.
> 
> 1 Birds used at "fun trial" might be any upland variety that is availble?
> 
> ...


Chukars are almost always used but, we reserve the right to use Ben pheasants if necessary. 

Backing is not scored but a dog stealing another's point or ripping another's bird isn't going to win. 

Bitches in heat will be run in the last braces possible. 

Most trials run braces. Lansing run theirs with single dogs due to the size of the course I believe. 

I'm pretty sure the rules are stated on the entry form or are readily available. If anyone doesn't understand the rules that is their fault. Just ask.


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## mudbat2128 (Sep 7, 2004)

zeeke33 said:


> After reading till my eyes watered, I've still got a couple things I'd like cleared-up.
> 
> 1 Birds used at "fun trial" might be any upland variety that is availble?
> 
> ...


Might of tried to read a old entry form theres enough of them floating around on this site.


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## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

BIGSP said:


> Chukars are almost always used but, we reserve the right to use Ben pheasants if necessary.
> 
> Backing is not scored but a dog stealing another's point or ripping another's bird isn't going to win.
> 
> ...




Ben pheasants i just wanted to know were you pick them up at local breeder:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## zeeke33 (Feb 7, 2009)

Mudbat, 

Sorry if I imposed!


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## mudbat2128 (Sep 7, 2004)

zeeke33 said:


> After reading till my eyes watered, I've still got a couple things I'd like cleared-up.
> 
> 1 Birds used at "fun trial" might be any upland variety that is availble?
> 
> ...


The last line in your post looks like your pot stiring to me hence the way I responed. Sorry if that wasn't your intent.


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## zeeke33 (Feb 7, 2009)

Mud,
NO stir intended - just a last thought after a couple points I needed cleared-up.I have a female that has a habit of going into heat just when you want to do something fun. RGS looked like an option I might want to participate in this Summer. After your reply, I figured I would just as soon run my dogs anywhere else. Didn't strike me as a "fun deal" if that's what a lagit question gets a newby. Glad to hear I thouight wrong. PEACE and have a real good holiday.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Disclaimer I am not attacking anyone personally.



The question was about judging. 

No judge is perfect and they do miss things some times to your benefit some times to your downfall.
At the end of every test, trial, fun trial, asks the judge for their input and to see the score cards. Hopefully they put comments down that means more to me. Even if you passed or placed ask. I have never been refused by a judge. 
Have I run across arrogant judges, yes? 
I have seen judges judging over dogs that they bred in their kennels, yes. 
Do I think every judges has scored us fairly, No. Especially if the judge starts to talk to you about your dogs looks.
At one point the RGS fun trial did have points for flushing dogs that were steady and that honored. That is no longer the case. I think it should be. I feel a flushing dog should be steady to flush and shot. I do not buy into the reasons people give for not wanting steadiness. 

When I have run the RGS trial in the past I expected my dog to sit to every flush and shot, both her birds and brace mates birds. I expect her to sit even if she hears gun fire from the pointing field if its close and loud. When I am at a trial or hunt test and we are following waiting for our turn I expect my dog to sit to the gun fire. 

In my first RGS trial I had my dog sit and wait while the other handler had to recall their dog on a flyaway. Part for sportsmanship and part for safety.

One of the big reasons you don't want to run flushers against pointers as they have in the past in the RGS trial. Is that pointer handlers can reach into the grass pick up a wet bird toss it and shoot it and it counts as a find. Not allowed for flushing handler. 

In a AKC field trial number of finds does not count, but if you pass up birds you will be dropped.

I don&#8217;t run RGS trials anymore because my dog is disqualified (titles). Will I run them with the next dog maybe? Not where I am heading with my dogs. I expect more from my dogs than what is expected at the RGS fun trial. I have to look at the cost v the relevance for me and my dog.

Would I recommend a RGS fun trial to others? If you&#8217;re looking to meet people and have a good time running dogs then yes. Find out the rules and what is required from you and your dog and train for it.

I cross train my dog for both retriever and spaniel test. Expectations are different and you have to train your dog for the test. Same goes for trials.

Brandy is 5 and I have had her in over 45 hunt test and trials average cost for entry $60.00+gas+lodging = meet good like minded people, go places never been to before, having a lot of fun, learn from other handlers, help other handlers, wall covered in bling.


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## GamebirdPreserve (Nov 21, 2006)

zeeke33 said:


> Mud,
> NO stir intended - just a last thought after a couple points I needed cleared-up.I have a female that has a habit of going into heat just when you want to do something fun. RGS looked like an option I might want to participate in this Summer. After your reply, I figured I would just as soon run my dogs anywhere else. Didn't strike me as a "fun deal" if that's what a lagit question gets a newby. Glad to hear I thouight wrong. PEACE and have a real good holiday.


Mud,

I thought I would help you locate some helpful links. The following links will give you an idea of an older entry form example (and details) and the CURRENT RGS Event Calendar. The calendar is nice so that you are able to look up each event specifically as they are posted and the proper details. I think that each Chapter may be slighlty different with how they run the FUN TRIALS depending on the number of dogs entered, the field size and the terrain, etc, but they are all "FUN"! Hope you decide to PLAY. 


*OLD ENTRY FORM TO THE RGS FUN TRIAL Spring 2011:*

*http://www.ruffedgrousesociety.org/UserFiles/File/11DetroitMIFunTrial%202011.pdf*


*Banquets and Events Current**- RGS Event Calendar with links for more details*



Holiday Blessings!


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

You guys with all these great ideas should start your own circuit.
People are always looking for fun events to do with their dogs.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> You guys with all these great ideas should start your own circuit.
> People are always looking for fun events to do with their dogs.


Or get involved with your local RGS chapter and get your ideas out there to your trial chair to bring to the committee. It seems a large majority of the criticizers that want change or don't agree with the current format are of those that don't participate and are not involved in any way. 


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Duece22 said:


> Or get involved with your local RGS chapter and get your ideas out there to your trial chair to bring to the committee. It seems a large majority of the criticizers that want change or don't agree with the current format are of those that don't participate and are not involved in any way.
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


Spot on Ric
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

And these trials are to introduce people to RGS. Most this maybe there first time having a person judge there hunting dog so steadiness and honoring is new to them. If you are looking for more out of your dogs there are other trials out there for that.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

gundogguy said:


> [/B]
> 
> I had cross this thread off my to do list but noticing Doug Cherry's effort this after noon after making training bird run(pigeons and chukars)
> I have to reply.
> ...


times events are terrible and usually a joke. by timed I mean like the tournament hunter series. miss a bird get penalized. bump birds no big deal

it's the rgs. grouse dogs are suppose to be steady aren't they? 

you are describing a pheasant event 

I don't think there is anything wring with the rgs fun trial. the turnout seems good from what I hear. 


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

chewy said:


> times events are terrible and usually a joke. by timed I mean like the tournament hunter series. miss a bird get penalized. bump birds no big deal
> 
> it's the rgs. grouse dogs are suppose to be steady aren't they?
> 
> ...


Thanks Chewy. You are spot on.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

gundogguy said:


> Timed events make so much more sense than running a trial type format where standards are compromised for safety sake.
> You could even expand your market because the titled dog would not hold any advantage over the unsteady dog or pup


A timed event is probably the farthest thing we want our fun trials to become. A titled dog cannot compete because by having the title, they have already proven they are capable of performing at a level above most meat hunting dogs. These meat dogs are the dogs we want...RGS supporters with a hunting dog who want to get together for a friendly competition. 

Once again, it's that simple.



gundogguy said:


> There are many formats that are available...


...and that, sir, is the best point you have made this entire thread.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Duece22 said:


> Or get involved with your local RGS chapter and get your ideas out there to your trial chair to bring to the committee. It seems a large majority of the criticizers that want change or don't agree with the current format are of those that don't participate and are not involved in any way.
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


 I am a board member of the Traverse City RGS chapter. I do offer ideas and sometimes my ideas are implemented and sometime not. And I will keep offering ideas with the hope that they will make a difference for all members. I also do the entire web and face book programing for our chapter. I also work corporate donations for our banquet.
Fritz and the other board members work their butts off. But we don't allways agree on things. 

http://tcrgs.com/
http://www.facebook.com/LeGrand.Traverse.Chapter.RGS


Doug Cherry


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

I'm with Brandy said:


> I am a board member of the Traverse City RGS chapter. I do offer ideas and sometimes my ideas are implemented and sometime not. And I will keep offering ideas with the hope that they will make a difference for all members. I also do the entire web and face book programing for our chapter. I also work corporate donations for our banquet.
> http://tcrgs.com/
> http://www.facebook.com/LeGrand.Traverse.Chapter.RGS
> 
> ...


Doug I am aware of this. You were why I had to put "majority" not all. Your input is always well thought out and delivered well. Thank you for that. 
Ric


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

2ESRGR8 said:


> You guys with all these great ideas should start your own circuit.
> People are always looking for fun events to do with their dogs.





Duece22 said:


> Or get involved with your local RGS chapter and get your ideas out there to your trial chair to bring to the committee. It seems a large majority of the criticizers that want change or don't agree with the current format are of those that don't participate and are not involved in any way.


These two posts are 'it' in a nutshell.


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## JAM (Mar 30, 2000)

2ESRGR8 said:


> You guys with all these great ideas should start your own circuit.
> People are always looking for fun events to do with their dogs.


Well... Ahem...

In the U.P. after the RGS chapters folded some of the former committee members decided to keep the dog events going as we enjoyed them so much. So, we started a local club, U.P. Bird Hunters. We have a training day once a month and timed "Fun Trials" twice a year - one in the spring and one in the late fall (Dec. 10th this year). If any of you are interested in giving it a try we'd be glad to have you.

There are no "exceptions" on dogs that are allowed to run. We have titled dogs and meat dogs. Steady dogs and unsteady dogs. Shooting DOES count which tends to level the field. 

Next spring I'll post the location and date in case anyone is interested.

Thanks!


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

JAM said:


> Next spring I'll post the location and date in case anyone is interested.
> 
> Thanks!


This forum and others like it are the place to recruit for these events. It's free, it's easy, it works well. You can also, for free, start a blog and keep folks up to date.

Click here
http://coverdog.blogspot.com/
In the upper right corner click the Create Blog link.
You're in.

Good luck


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

I truly enjoy the RGS gundog events and will continue to support them, but I think it would sure be nice (although probably not practical) to run the GDOY trial on the RGS namesake bird.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> I truly enjoy the RGS gundog events and will continue to support them, but I think it would sure be nice (although probably not practical) to run the GDOY trial on the RGS namesake bird.


Rumor has it there could be an RGS regional trial in the works using cover dog rules and similiar to the spring Hunting Dog Stake the MAFTC puts on.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> Rumor has it there could be an RGS regional trial in the works using cover dog rules and similiar to the spring Hunting Dog Stake the MAFTC puts on.


Cool, if it was to be like the Spring HDS, it would be run on (mostly) released birds, but in grouse habitat. I think a lot of RGS'rs would support that format including me.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Released birds, but blank guns only, run in grouse habitat, regional trials are welcome to run any format they wish to send top four dogs to gdoy trial as long as they meet min entry status. A new chapter would run this trial.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)




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## JAM (Mar 30, 2000)

Very nice video. That's the first time I've ever seen finished pointing dogs work. Cool!


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## mudbat2128 (Sep 7, 2004)

gundogguy said:


> Trained bird dogs - YouTube


 



I'll make sure I show my RGS trash that video before we go out next time so they know how to get it right.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Ours will join yours Justin

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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