# Llewellin or Ryman/Old Hemlock English Setters?



## Fix_F16

My experience is limited to GSPs. I'm looking to get a setter pup sometime next year and starting some research. First, I don't want to start a "my breed is better than yours" debate. This is about finding which line is the best fit for MY preferences. General traits I'm looking for are, of course, hunting ability, close working, lower strung and most important, a good family dog. 

For the experienced setter people out there, which line is better suited for my needs? I like that the Llewellins are smaller but do they actually run bigger than their "cousins"? 

Are the Ryman/Old Hemlock lines generally calmer?

Are there other differences that I should consider? 

Thanks in advance.

Dave


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## dogwhistle

i owned llewellins for 30 yrs. i still have my old dog that i have a great deal of affection for. and i have friends that have "rymans" or old hemlocks.

i wouldnt recommend either strain. if the german shorthairs have the traits you like, i would stick with them and buy a pup from the highest quality breeding i could find.


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## Unregistered4

First thing I would recommend is...go to as many RGS Gun Dog Fun Trials as you can this spring. At our chapters (Lapeer/Imlay City) event last year, we had several dual setter (Ryman/OH type) dogs, FDSB setters and a couple Llewellin (I think, one for-sure). You can really get a feel for the breed at these events. Because you get a chance to see them hunt, you can spend time talking to their owners and in most cases spend a little time with the dogs themselves. Our trial is scheduled for April 18th, 2009 at Farmland Pheasant Hunters Preserve, in Brown City. Come out and enjoy the day (starts at 8:00am)...we serve lunch too ($5.00).

Or...

Talk to one of the members here that own setters and ask if you can get together and watch them run their dogs. I have five setters, three dual type setters (all out of different breeding's), one FDSB setter and a gordon setter (retired). Each and everyone them in "totally" different, in run, range and mannerisms. Not that one of them is better than the other (IMO), they're just different. And, that's the key to finding what you want...or what you'll enjoy hunting behind/living with. Especially, if it's going to be a house dog. Shoot me a PM and maybe we could get together, and you can see my four ES's run. I see your not to far from me.

I'll say one thing more..."you have your work cut out for yourself". If I had to chose between one of my dogs over another...I don't think I could do it. I like each and everyone of them equally, but for different reason...if that makes an sense. 

One question, what will you be hunting primarily (grouse, woodcock, pheasants, an fowl, etc)? And, is retrieving a big issue? (I guess I had two questions...lol). Because, some setters retrieve better than others. If your looking for that, make sure you impress that upon the breeder(s).

Here's a picture of our gang. (L-R) Yogi - gordon setter, Gwen - dual setter, Emma - dual setter, Deputy - dual setter, Nash - FDSB setter.










Good luck, in your endeavor.

Brian. (aka - twosetters)


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## Unregistered4

dogwhistle said:


> ...if the german shorthairs have the traits you like, i would stick with them...


 I respectfully disagree with this statement.

If he wants to try a different breed or is tired of the same old same old...he should find himself a setter or whatever breed suits his needs.

Example:

I friend of mind, who owns a GSP, EP and a setter (in that order). Just said to me the other day that he thinks he's finally found his breed (setter) and he doesn't plan on owning anything else from here on out. 

Not that it's any better than the others, it's just that they suit him better is all.

So, if this gentlemen wants to own a setter and does his research correctly, there's no reason he shouldn't get one over another breed. Especially, since there are "so many" different style setters out there to chose from. Ranging from one end of the spectrum to the other, if you look hard enough. 

One more thing while I'm at it...

Your statement about Ryman/Old Hemlock dog(s) is unfounded (unless you saw these dogs many years ago). Because, there haven't been any of these breedings around since both George's died years ago. Sure, there are people trying to duplicate them...but that's about it. Their name, breeding efforts and idealism of what a setter should be...died with them. 

Brian. (aka - twosetters)


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## 2ESRGR8

*This is just my opinion*
and then generalities at that.

Smaller dogs move faster and farther while bigger framed dogs move slower and stay closer.

I have two Ryman/OH cross dogs, dual type if you will, and of the two my 50lb. female moves faster and hunts with greater range than my 60lb. male dog.

I've seen some Llews that can really cook, Highway Dan breeding, the dog I'm specifically talking about could run coverdog if her tail carriage was better. She can rock and roll, nice dog.
In general I'd say yes llews do run bigger than dual dogs and they'll look more athletic doing it.

As far as in the house, I don't think I'll ever have a better pet than my female dual dog. My male dog is very good also, calm to a fault, but he's attached to me at all times, very devoted. She's an easy keeper, he needs some attention and clean up(drooler). 
It was a tough transition from one that was so easy to one that wasn't. My wife hated him for a couple years, now she loves him. :yikes: :lol:


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## geojasstef

here we go again ....... maybe the fourm needs to be sub-divided again

Pointers
Setters 
Flushers
and others


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## NATTY BUMPO

Scott G (ESRGR8) needs to give his thoughts on here too. He judged our RGS trial last spring and looked hard at several dogs of each type and hunts grouse over these type of setters regularly. Brian has much recent experince as well.

George Ryman has been dead for many decades now. And GBE hasnt bred any litters for many years either. So dogs bred today and still carrying the names 'Ryman" or "Old Hemlock" have very little, if any relationship to dogs from the original strains. Brian's use of the term "Dual Setter" makes alot more sense.

NB


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## mark.n.chip

imo the lew strain does run a bit faster and wider. but training will bear whatever you want. as for retrieving that can sometimes be a crap shoot even w/ force breaking. any dog will only be as good as you want or be as good as the amount of time you put into them.as for house dogs either are great companions,drooling can be an issue. both want to please and be near their master at all times. i could not be happier w/ my FDSB lewellin setter.


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## Unregistered4

geojasstef said:


> here we go again .......
> 
> Pointers
> Setters
> Flushers
> and others


Jason,

No one said anything about those other breeds in a negative way.

Please reread my opinion and statements.



> Not that it's any better than the others, it's just that they suit him better is all.


I said "they" (setters) suited him.

Not that their any better or any worse.

Now, if Dave (Fix F16) wants a setter...all I'm recommending is...*"he"* should look at as many *"setters"* as he possibly can, before deciding on one.

He has to decide what he wants...no one else is going to be able to tell him what he's going to like.

He *asked* a question about *setters*...what the heck are we suppose to tell him...if we can't mention our likes and dislikes about them?

Brian. (aka - twosetters)


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## geojasstef

pm sent


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## dogwhistle

just for the sake of accuracy, there are probably no true "llewellins" in existence today. they all carry a dose of english setter somewhere in the pedigree which would disqualify them. however there are a lot of llewellin breeders and dogs with llewellin papers. there are lots of different types ranging from some that are pretty spaniel like and range maybe 30 yrds to some that are indistinguishable from any other field bred english setter. and probably are the same if the truth could be known. 

if you dig into the ryman setters pedigrees, you will see mostly bench dogs. they rarely breed to field trial dogs, so over time, they are a high percentage of bench/show dogs. i dont know about "dual" setters. that implies a dog that can win a championship in both a fdsb trial and a dog show. it's never been done in modern times.

it sounds like you are looking for a house dog that you can kill birds over. that shouldnt be very tough


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## Mike McDonald

Fix F16, I too own setters, I think Brian aka unregistered4 is right on. Attend an RGS trial or two, watch the dogs run, fall in love, then get in line for your next best friend. In addition to the Imlay city chapter's trial I would suggest the TC trial. Lots of setters there last year including Mark's and Brian's. Scott and I were also at the trial plus or minus 80 other great dogs to see. In addition fair food, good guys, and great bull ****. macvet51 mike mcdonald All that said with a name like Fix F16 maybe you should be talking with Scott about E Pointers.


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## Feather Hunter

Fix_F16 said:


> My experience is limited to GSPs. I'm looking to get a setter pup sometime next year and starting some research. First, I don't want to start a "my breed is better than yours" debate. This is about finding which line is the best fit for MY preferences. *General traits I'm looking for are, of course, hunting ability, close working, lower strung and most important, a good family dog. *
> 
> 
> 
> Dave


If you added "natural retriever from land and water", you would have described a quality GSP.


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## Feather Hunter

2ESRGR8 said:


> *This is just my opinion*
> and then generalities at that.
> 
> Smaller dogs move faster and farther while bigger framed dogs move slower and stay closer.
> 
> I have two Ryman/OH cross dogs, dual type if you will, and of the two my 50lb. female moves faster and hunts with greater range than my 60lb. male dog.
> 
> I've seen some Llews that can really cook, Highway Dan breeding, the dog I'm specifically talking about could run coverdog if her tail carriage was better. She can rock and roll, nice dog.
> In general I'd say yes llews do run bigger than dual dogs and they'll look more athletic doing it.
> 
> As far as in the house, I don't think I'll ever have a better pet than my female dual dog. My male dog is very good also, calm to a fault, but he's attached to me at all times, very devoted. She's an easy keeper, he needs some attention and clean up(drooler).
> It was a tough transition from one that was so easy to one that wasn't. My wife hated him for a couple years, now she loves him. :yikes: :lol:


Notice the cover over the furniture to collect the fur? They do look comfortable. Probably not the first time they have been there -done that, eh?


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## woodedareas

If our interested in a Ryman type setter then it would be worth youe while to go to the Decoverly Kennel website. They have some excellent information about the so called dual type English Setters. I doubt there are any true blood lines left bit these people and some other kennels produce some great dual purpose dogs. I have personally had different breeds from Great Pyrenees, to New Foundlands to English Setters. I loved each one of them and each dog enriched my life.:SHOCKED:


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## Steelheadfred

Feather Hunter said:


> If you added "natural retriever from land and water", you would have described a quality GSP.


You should come watch Mark Stephen's dog Chip (Mark-n-Chip) retrieve, as a matter of fact in the field he will give a good lab a run for its money. Same goes for Hevi's Pointer Chopper...these are nice retrieving pointing dogs.


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## J-Lee

I tell you Scott, those are two of the most beautiful setters, I've seen in a long time. Always been a sucker for the dual type.


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## metro49

dogwhistle said:


> if you dig into the ryman setters pedigrees, you will see mostly bench dogs. they rarely breed to field trial dogs, so over time, they are a high percentage of bench/show dogs.


Could you please give us some examples of the fine "bench/show" dogs you're talking about? I don't believe you can. I don't know where you get your information from, but I just have to say you're WAY out of touch on this.

Ryman "type" dogs are never going to win any FDSB field trials, but from what I've seen, they are a very solid hunting and companion dog. I have a 2 year old female that is a joy to be around in and out of the house. This is her second season, and I don't have many complaints at all. She is all I expected her to be. Good range, nose, intelligence etc... She couldn't case less about retrieving though. She'll hunt dead and stand over the kill. I guess nobody's perfect. 

Most of the modern breeders of the "dual" setters are out crossing them to expand the Ryman gene pool and breed in more athleticism. For example, they've had good success in crossing them to the Smith line of setters. 

My buddies have Llewellin setters and I see many similarities in the way the Rymans and Llews hunt. If our poster is interested in the two lines, I'd say thumbs up to both. Do like Unregistered said and watch them hunt in the field and decide for himself. 

Dogwhistle, your comment really painted a whole line of great dogs with a BIG wide stroke. Hunted behind many of the _recently_? It's all a matter of what huntng style a person has. Just like cars, some drive pick ups and some drive a Corvette. 

Annie at 11 months old with her first two grouse. 

 

Ranger (Llew) and Annie (Ryman Type) in November. Don't tell these dogs they can't hunt. You'll hurt their feelings.


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## Egbert Souse

I have 2 Ryman females I am very happy with and I shoot my share of birds "trust me ". I went into last season and while a little embaressed to admit this I did very little training w/ a 7 month old pup. I was more than pleased to see her in her 2nd weekend up north to not only seek out her own birds but hold, back, and retrieve to hand EVERY bird I dropped she got to first.... a bunch .. here she is at 7 months and her name is Cate.


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## Feather Hunter

Steelheadfred said:


> You should come watch Mark Stephen's dog Chip (Mark-n-Chip) retrieve, as a matter of fact in the field he will give a good lab a run for its money. Same goes for Hevi's Pointer Chopper...these are nice retrieving pointing dogs.


Retrieving from land is not an option form me it is a must. So, talking about a pointing dog giving a lab a run for it's money in the field is a moot point. I like to see dogs retrieve under all conditions. I have killed birds that have fallen in rivers and the retrieve is not an option. I have also seen pointing breeds break ice to retrieve.


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## midwestfisherman

dogwhistle said:


> just for the sake of accuracy, there are probably no true "llewellins" in existence today. they all carry a dose of english setter somewhere in the pedigree which would disqualify them. however there are a lot of llewellin breeders and dogs with llewellin papers. there are lots of different types ranging from some that are pretty spaniel like and range maybe 30 yrds to some that are indistinguishable from any other field bred english setter. and probably are the same if the truth could be known.
> 
> if you dig into the ryman setters pedigrees, you will see mostly bench dogs. they rarely breed to field trial dogs, so over time, they are a high percentage of bench/show dogs. i dont know about "dual" setters. that implies a dog that can win a championship in both a fdsb trial and a dog show. it's never been done in modern times.
> 
> it sounds like you are looking for a house dog that you can kill birds over. that shouldnt be very tough


Do you actually believe this stuff or are you just trying to stir the pot. A Llewellin litter has to be DNA tested in order to be registered as such. So Llewellins registered as such are indeed "true" Llewellins. BTW, I don't own any Llews or dual type setters, so I have no dog in this fight!


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## Unregistered4

metro49 said:


> Ranger (Llew) and Annie (Ryman Type) in November. Don't tell these dogs they can't hunt. You'll hurt their feelings.


Darn it Don...help an old timer out here and post your pictures bigger..the old eyes ain't what they use to be...lol

Good looking dogs though (from what I can make out).

I hope you bring Annie to our Fun Trial this year...then I could see her in person.

Take care and hope to see ya there.



2ESRGR8 said:


> I have two Ryman/OH cross dogs, dual type if you will, and of the two my 50lb. female moves faster and hunts with greater range than my 60lb. male dog.


Sometimes I wonder if that a female-male thing? I have two setters that are about the same size (Gwen and Nash) and Gwen will run circles around him. And, then I have two dogs that are in the sixty pound range and the female will run the legs off the male of similar breeding and size.

Look at Gwen litter mate Toby (Tom's dog)...you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would even believe that they were litter mates. Everything's different about them, size, gate, range and athleticism. 

Maybe males are just lazier than females? Naw...that couldn't be it...but I have heard that term, a time or two, around the house here...lol

Brian.


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## metro49

Unregistered4 said:


> Darn it Don...help an old timer out here and post your pictures bigger..the old eyes ain't what they use to be...lol
> 
> Good looking dogs though (from what I can make out).
> 
> I hope you bring Annie to our Fun Trial this year...then I could see her in person.
> 
> Take care and hope to see ya there.
> 
> 
> 
> Brian.


Brian, it's NOT your old eyes that are the problem. I usually post thumbnail sized pictures, so to see the whole thing just click on the picture and it magically gets bigger. 

Time permitting, I'd love to come to the fun trial. It sounds like lots of fun. We should invite Dogwhistle too. 

Don


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## 2ESRGR8

Feather Hunter said:


> Notice the cover over the furniture to collect the fur? They do look comfortable. Probably not the first time they have been there -done that, eh?


 :lol: :lol: That is correct.
That's Jacks chair and it resides next to my desk down in the man cave. If he's not curled up under my desk he is lounging in that chair. 
Surprisingly though its my young Pointer that sheds the most of my 3 dogs.


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## FindTheBird

I'm a setter "outsider" but have considered them several times in the past and have seen a decent number. If I were a hunter in the market, I'd consider a FDSB coverdog trial wash-out. 
These dogs are typically quite small, develop very early, often scent pointing like hell right out of the box and they move effortlessly through the woods as if they were floating about 2 feet above the forest floor--a lot of fun to watch. Many are also quite heat resistent.
Trialers frequently trim their strings of the dogs that don't have enough run in them, but may be incredible dogs in every other aspect. I've seen these dogs given away for free or for a nominal price and as an added bonus, they will be started, sometimes on wild birds.
Here's one place to check:
http://members4.boardhost.com/coverdogforsale/


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## dogwhistle

it doesnt matter to me what this guy buys. there are a lot of ryman type pedigrees on the internet from the larger kennels. take a look for yourself. pinecoble is one of the larger kennels i think, they have a pedigree that illustrates what i'm referring to. and keep in mind that george ryman crossed field dogs with bench dogs and then george evans crossed in bench dogs again. and they are constantly selected for appearance. "dual" in dog terms means a dog that is a champion in a fdsb field trial and a dog show. that hasnt occurred in a very long time. maybe before 1900. and never with these type of dogs.

dna testing of llewellins is very much misunderstood. all it really means is that the parents are registered as llewellins. i know a lot of llewellin breeders, i helped one of the presidents of their breed association get his first pup. privately none of them believe their dogs are "pure llewellin". some are more so than others. actually, the present field trial bred english setters are much more like the original llewellins imported to the US than any others. a lot of things went on among llewellin breeders culminating in the suspension of the largest breeder, a person who was producing around 50% of the pups each year.

i have affection for every dog i have ever owned, just like everyone else. but i try not to let that cloud my objectivity about their abilities.


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## Steelheadfred

dogwhistle said:


> it doesnt matter to me what this guy buys. there are a lot of ryman type pedigrees on the internet from the larger kennels. take a look for yourself. pinecoble is one of the larger kennels i think, they have a pedigree that illustrates what i'm referring to. and keep in mind that george ryman crossed field dogs with bench dogs and then george evans crossed in bench dogs again. and they are constantly selected for appearance. "dual" in dog terms means a dog that is a champion in a fdsb field trial and a dog show. that hasnt occurred in a very long time. maybe before 1900. and never with these type of dogs.
> 
> dna testing of llewellins is very much misunderstood. all it really means is that the parents are registered as llewellins. i know a lot of llewellin breeders, i helped one of the presidents of their breed association get his first pup. privately none of them believe their dogs are "pure llewellin". some are more so than others. actually, the present field trial bred english setters are much more like the original llewellins imported to the US than any others. a lot of things went on among llewellin breeders culminating in the suspension of the largest breeder, a person who was producing around 50% of the pups each year.
> 
> i have affection for every dog i have ever owned, just like everyone else. but i try not to let that cloud my objectivity about their abilities.


 
So Mike are you saying that these "Dual/Ryman/OH" Setters cant produce grouse to the same degree as the sleeker trial type setters?


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## dogwhistle

Fred, a lot of dogs can "produce birds" there is no doubt in my mind that i could run a couple border collies throught the grouse woods and produce birds. dont you flyfish? cant i produce trout with a spinning rod or cane pole? isnt a dry fly with some quality gear a lot more fun? and if so, why?

if someone wants a dog because it looks a certain way or runs close or is especially calm around the house, then that's their choice.

but people seem to latch onto breeds and strains like they do football teams. they become fans and lose their objectivity. i've got an old llewellin, my last, that isnt going to be around much longer. i have more affection for her than any other birddog. she's a one man dog and was a true woodcock specialist. but she's not the best birddog i own.

over time, i've come to admire some things about the field trialers. mainly because they are more objective and let others- judges evaluate their dogs. it's not a perfect system, but it's probably the best we can come up with.

in this case, i'm just offering some information. what anyone does with it is their choice.


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## kellyM87

I own a llewellin and she is great!!! but it is always hard to tell what dog will be better, even puppies in the same litter show different abilities.


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## Shiloh Kelly & Tucker

I have two GSP's one 7 & the other 5. About a year ago I acquired a Ryman Setter from an acquaintance whom bought the Ryman Setter from Goog Going Kennels in Baldwin, WI.

I am very pleased with the Ryman Setter. One of my GSP's is longer ranging than the other and this setter runs in between. I run all three at the same time so it's a perfect fit.

We also have three children (Ages 4-14) and the setter is very good with all of them.

If you are interested in something more specific let me know, I'd be happy to chat.

Good Luck!


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## 2ESRGR8

Shiloh said:


> About a year ago I acquired a Ryman Setter from an acquaintance whom bought the Ryman Setter from Goog Going Kennels in Baldwin, WI.


What's the breeding on your Goodgoing dog? Sire? Dam?


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## Fix_F16

dogwhistle said:


> it sounds like you are looking for a house dog that you can kill birds over. that shouldnt be very tough


I admit, I get a chuckle from the seemingly condescending statements. To everyone else, thanks for the constructive input. And thanks for this pics too. There are some beautiful dogs out there.

I mostly hunt grouse/woodcock with an occasional pheasant hunt mixed in. Retrieving is not mandatory and I admit I probably wouldn't take the additional time to force break.


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## Steelheadfred

Fix_F16 said:


> I admit, I get a chuckle from the seemingly condescending statements. To everyone else, thanks for the constructive input. And thanks for this pics too. There are some beautiful dogs out there.
> 
> I mostly hunt grouse/woodcock with an occasional pheasant hunt mixed in. Retrieving is not mandatory and I admit I probably wouldn't take the additional time to force break.


The two best most productive grouse dog I know of, one is a Ryman/Hemlock dog, the other a cover dog pointer.

Shoot 2ESRG8 a PM and ask him for some advice..


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## WestCoastHunter

FindTheBird said:


> These dogs are typically quite small, develop very early, often scent pointing like hell right out of the box and they move effortlessly through the woods as if they were floating about 2 feet above the forest floor--a lot of fun to watch.


Hmm, sounds like a Pointer. :evil:


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## Scott Berg

Fix_F16 said:


> I admit, I get a chuckle from the seemingly condescending statements. To everyone else, thanks for the constructive input. And thanks for this pics too. There are some beautiful dogs out there.
> 
> I mostly hunt grouse/woodcock with an occasional pheasant hunt mixed in. Retrieving is not mandatory and I admit I probably wouldn't take the additional time to force break.


Dave,

Here is my attempt at constructive input and avoiding any condescending statements. 

Last year I attended a seminar at an event where they had put together a panel of four of the most respected hunting dog experts in the country. The panel consisted of Bob West, Rick Smith, Tom Dokken, and a Springer guy I did not know which is not to say he was any less famous. I just have zero knowledge of Springers or Springer breeders. This question was asked in a slightly different form. The question was not as specific as the one you have posed. A member of the audience said he was shopping for a dog and asked if dogs with a lot of Champion bred dogs in the ancestry will produce more birds for a foot hunter than dogs without such a distinguished pedigree. 

The panel collectively gave their thoughts and their opinion was very different than most of the opinions expressed here. I thought you may want to know the opinion of these highly regarded bird dog experts. It will not be warmly received by some folks on this board and I ask them to reserve their hostility for the panel that gave this opinion. Even better, perhaps consider their opinions as it has been formed after considerable experience and accomplishment. 

Rick Smith started off and prefaced his comments that he was speaking of pointing breeds. He made two basic points and the others added their thoughts. Tom Dokken structured his comments to Retrievers but I don't really rember what he said except that it was in the same construct as the opinion given by Smith and West. Smith started by saying;

1) The offspring to competition type dogs have more prey drive and athletic ability. They will cover much more ground and its a simple matter of creating more opportunities. If the dog handles birds properly its going to create more opportunity. 
2) The best trial dogs also possess two traits that give them a very big advantage. One, they are very good at seeking out the best objectives (cover within a given area). Its like fishing, if your bait is always in the best spots you catch more fish. Two, trials identify the dogs that have outstanding ability to handle game and superior manners around game. This combined with cover more ground and going to the best places is going to produce significantly more opportunity to shoot pointed birds.
3)  The others talked about natural ability around game, athleticism, stamina, intelligence, and just raw prey drive. Bob West and Tom Dokken finished by saying the dogs from accomplished backgrounds have much more potential and it was up to the owner to both develop and train the dog. They then went into the difference between development and training. They all came back to say start with the most raw ability and develop / train the dog properly.

Dave, you should pose this same question on the cover dog board where there are a number of people who have dedicated an astounding amount of time and effort training and hunting grouse dogs. I suspect the opinions will be very different than the ones given here. 

SRB


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## 2ESRGR8

I wonder how many ruffed grouse Rick Smith killed this year.


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## Steelheadfred

> 1) The offspring to competition type dogs have more prey drive and athletic ability. They will cover much more ground and it&#8217;s a simple matter of creating more opportunities. If the dog handles birds properly it&#8217;s going to create more opportunity.


Speaking of Ruffed Grouse Only....

Scott Berg,

Do you feel this way about a guy buying a dog to hunt Ruffed Grouse and WC 90% of the dog's life in the upper great lakes?


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## FindTheBird

WestCoastHunter said:


> Hmm, sounds like a Pointer. :evil:



Speaking of coverdog pointers, I ran across this video of Beaver Meadow Benjamin today:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=egWsxmoftLE


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## dogwhistle

Scott, i agree with your post, but one thing lacking is the objectivity of judges looking at animals competeting against all comers. breeders that dont do that, soon become very myopic.

a lot of dogs can find birds, most in fact, but doing it in the manner described in the post is another matter.


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## kek25

If a dog is more athletic, covers more ground, and if a dog can handle grouse, then I would agree that dog should give the hunter more opportunities - - especially in areas/times where/when birds are scarce.

I ran into a couple older fellas this year who used no dogs and shot a limit of grouse up north each day they were out. They knew more about the habitat and patterning grouse than anyone I've ever met. They never use dogs.

If you know how and where to find the birds when bird numbers are up you can take a Yorkie Poo for a stealthy walk with you in the woods and shoot your limit. That doesn't mean the Yorkie Poo is a great bird finder/handler, it just means you've presented the opportunity.

But when bird numbers are down and you need a dog to cover a lot of ground efficiently in order to root them out I would have to agree that a more athletic dog that can handle grouse would provide more opportunities. It's the "that can handle grouse" which is key. Many athletic dogs (or other dogs for that matter) never learn how to handle grouse skilfully. If the dog can't handle grouse and grouse is your target it doesn't matter what strain/line you get. And as you probably know, unless you're extremely lucky enough to get one of those 1 in a thousand naturals, you won't know whether your dog can handle grouse for several years.


And if you don't know how to pattern the birds it doesn't matter what strain/line you go with.


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## 2ESRGR8

kek25 said:


> If a dog is more athletic, covers more ground, and if a dog can handle grouse, then I would agree that dog should give the hunter more opportunities - - especially in areas/times where/when birds are scarce.
> 
> I ran into a couple older fellas this year who used no dogs and shot a limit of grouse up north each day they were out. They knew more about the habitat and patterning grouse than anyone I've ever met. They never use dogs.
> 
> If you know how and where to find the birds when bird numbers are up you can take a Yorkie Poo for a stealthy walk with you in the woods and shoot your limit. That doesn't mean the Yorkie Poo is a great bird finder/handler, it just means you've presented the opportunity.
> 
> But when bird numbers are down and you need a dog to cover a lot of ground efficiently in order to root them out I would have to agree that a more athletic dog that can handle grouse would provide more opportunities. It's the "that can handle grouse" which is key. Many athletic dogs (or other dogs for that matter) never learn how to handle grouse skilfully. If the dog can't handle grouse and grouse is your target it doesn't matter what strain/line you get. And as you probably know, unless you're extremely lucky enough to get one of those 1 in a thousand naturals, you won't know whether your dog can handle grouse for several years.
> 
> 
> And if you don't know how to pattern the birds it doesn't matter what strain/line you go with.


 Kek,
Do you keep stats on your dogs performance?
Do you know what percentage of birds your dogs handle properly? 
Just curious, if you'd care to share you can PM me.


----------



## Scott Berg

Steelheadfred said:


> Speaking of Ruffed Grouse Only....
> 
> Scott Berg,
> 
> Do you feel this way about a guy buying a dog to hunt Ruffed Grouse and WC 90% of the dog's life in the upper great lakes?


Steelheadfred,

Putting it in this exact context makes for a more interesting discussion. Trials dogs are developed very differently. They are constantly pushed. The same dogs, most of them anyway, would act very differently if developed to be a hunting companion. I think what happens is that people think in terms of hunting a trial dog. Many of them would probably not produce any more birds for the gun than any other dog. Then again, some of them will. I have spent a fair amount of time working dogs with Dave Terhaar from Michigan and I guarantee you dont want to have a bird finding contest with Rockko in the woods. He probably averages 4-5 productive points/hour on grouse in a hunting (not trialing) situation. JGF hunts with Dave. Thats not really the point. The relevant comparison is not of field trial individuals, but their offspring. 

There are a few breeder / field trailers who appear to like dogs that run to feel the wind blow through their ears. They sometimes are just running, not hunting. They do not do a good job of seeking the best cover, they dont utilize the wind and they dont know how to work cover. These poor examples send hunters running for cover (no pun intended). However, that is not representative of the offspring of field Champion dogs, especially Setters. The good ones are very natural in terms of seeking the best natural objectives where birds are found. They can easily be developed to hunt in a fashion where they are completely under control but also cover a lot of ground and get to the best places. In this context, where a dog covers much more ground but in an intelligent and controlled fashion, and of course are 100% focused on finding birds . What logic could possibly suggest that dog will not have more opportunities to point birds? 

Its not just the additional ground covered. It sounds like you have spend a lot of time in the woods so you know there are many little sweet spots within the woods. The really great dogs consistently demonstrate the intelligence to seek out these prime areas within the much bigger area. Those dogs find a lot of birds and thats what breeding trial type dogs is supposed to be about.

We have had great success producing hunting dogs out of females that were out of Champions but did not run really big. We kept them because they were exceptionally strong in all other areas. In other words, they were basically one generation removed. Breed them to a male with an exceptional mental make-up and you get a high percentage of ideal type dog described above. 

It does take a little more experience and training skill to develop a bigger going dog. They have to be developed properly to stay with you and handle birds better because you have to be able to trust them. I started with closer working dogs and I spent thousands of hours in the woods. There is no question the dogs we breed today produce more birds then the dogs we started with. I like them to work at a hard going but not frantic pace. There is a big difference between 80% and 100% and yes there are some trial dogs that dont know how to do anything but 100%. I wont feed those dogs. I really cant stand them to be honest. A dog that will put down a good hard going pace but hunt with exceptional intelligence will produce a lot of birds for the gun and they are a lot of fun to hunt behind. A dog that pulls you into birds that you would have never contacted is a whole different game, and its really fun.

It comes down to do you trust your dog to handle a high percentage of birds. If you believe the dog will handle birds, why in the world would you not want them to stretch out another 100 yards and hit a really good looking thicket? One of the really good things about trialing is that it forces the selection of dogs that are very good at handling game. 

SRB


----------



## Steelheadfred

Scott,

Thanks for taking time to explain, I enjoyed your responce and my limited experience I tend to like your thinking.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

kek25 said:


> But when bird numbers are down and you need a dog to cover a lot of ground efficiently in order to root them out I would have to agree that a more athletic dog that can handle grouse would provide more opportunities. It's the "that can handle grouse" which is key. Many athletic dogs (or other dogs for that matter) never learn how to handle grouse skilfully. If the dog can't handle grouse and grouse is your target it doesn't matter what strain/line you get. And as you probably know, unless you're extremely lucky enough to get one of those 1 in a thousand naturals, you won't know whether your dog can handle grouse for several years.
> 
> And if you don't know how to pattern the birds it doesn't matter what strain/line you go with.


Excellent post. Keith has gotten right to the heart of it. 

I'll just add that it takes most average dogs a considerable amount of time and many opportunities to learn how to really handle "The King". To decisively point and hold the majority of grouse contacts. Burton Spiller had a number of contacts it took, in his opinion, on average, in one of his books. I posted that number one time here and was told by some self-annointed "grouse gurus" that B.S. was sure full of B.S. Some experts!! My money's on 'ol Burt.

And, agreeing with Keith again, I think that the breed, strain, coat color, or length of tail or hair has less to do with the matter, than having the nose and brains and bird savvy to get a ruffed grouse pointed and held for the gunner to get there, no matter how quickly or long it takes. They are truly "something special".

NB


----------



## WestCoastHunter

Scott Berg said:


> If you believe the dog will handle birds, why in the world would you not want them to stretch out another 100 yards and hit a really good looking thicket?
> SRB


Because even if the dog handles birds well, you may not be able to get there in time to flush and shoot the bird with the added distance to cover yourself. I got to experience that this last weekend, the dog pointed 200 hundred yards out from me, held the point the whole time, but the bird decided to fly by the time I got within 100 yards. :banghead3


----------



## Steelheadfred

Lot of good truth speaking here by Kek, Natty, and West Coast! Good thread.


----------



## kek25

2ESRGR8 said:


> Kek,
> Do you keep stats on your dogs performance?
> Do you know what percentage of birds your dogs handle properly?
> Just curious, if you'd care to share you can PM me.


I haven't kept stats on the dogs in the past, but I did keep them on Jake this year - - mainly due to the fact that Tecumseh got me a nice lanyard and my wife added a couple thread counters to it.

I hunted grouse 20 days with Jake the first half of the season. He had 82 points on grouse. He pointed and held 73 grouse to flush and we shot 33 (I shot 12 over him and my buddies shot 21 over him). Jake did not bust any of the 73 birds we flushed, although the younger dogs and one of the older dogs did bust through some of his points as we arrived for the flush. Jake held steady under those circumstances, and I didn't count those against him (i.e. those are included in the 73 above). It's just that the other dogs did the flushing in those instances, not me. He had 9 unproductives which I am assuming were grouse, but could have been anything I guess. It was a good season given I only had limited time to get out. We ran 4 dogs at a time.

2 memorable moments with him this year.

Jake had 2 "limb" finds in the strict sense of the word. At one cover he stopped and pointed about 15 yards from a cluster of evergreens. I thought he was on woodcock because we had found woodcock under the trees in the same spot in the past. As I approached the cluster 10 different grouse flushed out from the lower limbs. 

In the second instance we were hunting a Beech grove. I heard him go on point. As I approached I saw him on the side of a hill toward the top pointing into the branches of a beech tree at just above head level (the beech tree was growing from the bottom of the hill; the top of the tree was at Jake's level near the top of the hill). As I continued to approach a grouse flushed away from me and I never got a shot. Jake continued to hold, and as I got near him a second grouse flushed from the same tree giving me a left to right knock down shot. This is the first season he has done that, and I noticed him glancing up into the trees as he ran every time out after those finds. Who says these dogs aren't smart. 

In terms of total birds handled by Jake I'm not sure, as he is a 300 yarder, so there may have been bump and chase instances I didn't witness. I just ordered a 2 dog Astro and should have a better idea on that issue next year.

I didn't keep stats on Roy or Rita. In his first full season, Roy did a lot of backing this year. He's still figuring grouse out. And Rita, at 15 months, was along for the ride; although she did point a few woodcock.

At 5 years old, Jake has learned the game. I didn't keep stats on woodcock in terms of points/flushes, but we limited out on woodcock every time we went out this year. But there's no comparison between grouse and woodcock in terms of handling by a dog.


----------



## dogwhistle

kek25 said:


> If a dog is more athletic, covers more ground, and if a dog can handle grouse, then I would agree that dog should give the hunter more opportunities - - especially in areas/times where/when birds are scarce.
> 
> I ran into a couple older fellas this year who used no dogs and shot a limit of grouse up north each day they were out. They knew more about the habitat and patterning grouse than anyone I've ever met. They never use dogs.
> 
> If you know how and where to find the birds when bird numbers are up you can take a Yorkie Poo for a stealthy walk with you in the woods and shoot your limit. That doesn't mean the Yorkie Poo is a great bird finder/handler, it just means you've presented the opportunity.
> 
> But when bird numbers are down and you need a dog to cover a lot of ground efficiently in order to root them out I would have to agree that a more athletic dog that can handle grouse would provide more opportunities. It's the "that can handle grouse" which is key. Many athletic dogs (or other dogs for that matter) never learn how to handle grouse skilfully. If the dog can't handle grouse and grouse is your target it doesn't matter what strain/line you get. And as you probably know, unless you're extremely lucky enough to get one of those 1 in a thousand naturals, you won't know whether your dog can handle grouse for several years.
> 
> 
> And if you don't know how to pattern the birds it doesn't matter what strain/line you go with.


i think that is pretty much true. if i just wanted to kill grouse, i think i could do as well or better hunting without a dog. the best shots are always the birds i wild flush myself as they are close to me. but i dont shoot at bumps or wild flushes. i dont know that i would flush more birds without a dog, but i would probably kill more.

any grouse hunter would agree, the more you flush them the wilder they get. and they get flushed over and over at a grouse trial, year after year. it takes a lot of dog to go out on a limb, point a bird and hold it and do it with a lot of style.

i dont know about a yorkie poo, but i dont doubt that at the other end of the spectrum, a border collie could find a bird at close range, flashpoint it while i shot at it.

for some guys, dogs are a means to get grouse. nothing wrong with that. but for others grouse are a means to watch dogs work in a very difficult manner where style and class are highly important.


----------



## Fix_F16

Expanding on my original question, are there dogs available out there that were bred for trialing, but don't have 100% of the traits for competition? I understand there are serious trialers/hunters out there and I'm definitely more on the recreational end of the spectrum. I'm wondering if a "reject" would suit me better ... maybe a dog that didn't run big or hard enough. I still would want a dog from respectable breeding, mostly because of the health and temperament risks from "backyard" breeders.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Fix_F16 said:


> Expanding on my original question, are there dogs available out there that were bred for trialing, but don't have 100% of the traits for competition? I understand there are serious trialers/hunters out there and I'm definitely more on the recreational end of the spectrum. I'm wondering if a "reject" would suit me better ... maybe a dog that didn't run big or hard enough. I still would want a dog from respectable breeding, mostly because of the health and temperament risks from "backyard" breeders.


Dave,

Your on to something here IMHO. Some of the greatest bargains in the birddog world are so called field trial "washouts". Maybe "washout" is not the correct term. These dogs can be any of the popular breeds but will not win in top flight competition for one reason or another, maybe tailset, way of going, speed or often, not enough motor. Maybe they didnt break out just right or something. Some little thing may keep them from "making it" as a field trial dog. They are often young, well bred and have had considerable training. They can make wonderful hunting companions. 

You can see exactly what you are getting and see if the dog is a good fit or not. I'd keep an eye on the CoverDog board bc/ such dogs are sometimes posted as available over there. Pro handlers are a good reference on this topic.

NB


----------



## Scott Berg

WestCoastHunter said:


> Because even if the dog handles birds well, you may not be able to get there in time to flush and shoot the bird with the added distance to cover yourself. I got to experience that this last weekend, the dog pointed 200 hundred yards out from me, held the point the whole time, but the bird decided to fly by the time I got within 100 yards. :banghead3


Westcoast hunter, 
[/COLOR] 
Of course, this will happen with jumpy birds but I have a much different interpretation of this situation. In my opinion, that bird is busting based on your presence and how long it takes you to get there is probably of some consequence but not much. That bird would have busted when you got within 100 yards even if the dogs was 105 yards when it pointed and you walked 5 yards. The bird is reacting to you. You were never going to get close to that particular bird. 

I have on many occasions just waited to approach a dog on point for 3 or 4 minutes because I wanted to instill in the dog that they had to retain perfect manners for as long as it takes me to find them. Upon approaching the dog the bird bust when I get within 75 or 100 yards. 

Obviously you could keep the dog within shotgun range. I think that bird still flushes when you are 100 yards away. If you talk to bow hunters they will tell you that over the years many grouse hunters have wondered into the area they are hunting and the bow hunters see the birds take off a couple hundred yards ahead of the hunters when no dogs are even present, especially late season. You just dont see it in the woods. You think you heard one. When I started going to the prairie a lot I was able to witness what was happening and that was the dog would get birds pointed and they would hold 30 second or 5 minutes it did not matter. When you get within 100 yards they go.

SRB


----------



## 2ESRGR8

kek25 said:


> I haven't kept stats on the dogs in the past, but I did keep them on Jake this year - - mainly due to the fact that Tecumseh got me a nice lanyard and my wife added a couple thread counters to it.
> 
> I hunted grouse 20 days with Jake the first half of the season. He had 82 points on grouse. He pointed and held 73 grouse to flush and we shot 33 (I shot 12 over him and my buddies shot 21 over him). Jake did not bust any of the 73 birds we flushed, although the younger dogs and one of the older dogs did bust through some of his points as we arrived for the flush. Jake held steady under those circumstances, and I didn't count those against him (i.e. those are included in the 73 above). It's just that the other dogs did the flushing in those instances, not me. He had 9 unproductives which I am assuming were grouse, but could have been anything I guess. It was a good season given I only had limited time to get out. We ran 4 dogs at a time.
> 
> 2 memorable moments with him this year.
> 
> Jake had 2 "limb" finds in the strict sense of the word. At one cover he stopped and pointed about 15 yards from a cluster of evergreens. I thought he was on woodcock because we had found woodcock under the trees in the same spot in the past. As I approached the cluster 10 different grouse flushed out from the lower limbs.
> 
> In the second instance we were hunting a Beech grove. I heard him go on point. As I approached I saw him on the side of a hill toward the top pointing into the branches of a beech tree at just above head level (the beech tree was growing from the bottom of the hill; the top of the tree was at Jake's level near the top of the hill). As I continued to approach a grouse flushed away from me and I never got a shot. Jake continued to hold, and as I got near him a second grouse flushed from the same tree giving me a left to right knock down shot. This is the first season he has done that, and I noticed him glancing up into the trees as he ran every time out after those finds. Who says these dogs aren't smart.
> 
> In terms of total birds handled by Jake I'm not sure, as he is a 300 yarder, so there may have been bump and chase instances I didn't witness. I just ordered a 2 dog Astro and should have a better idea on that issue next year.
> 
> I didn't keep stats on Roy or Rita. In his first full season, Roy did a lot of backing this year. He's still figuring grouse out. And Rita, at 15 months, was along for the ride; although she did point a few woodcock.
> 
> At 5 years old, Jake has learned the game. I didn't keep stats on woodcock in terms of points/flushes, but we limited out on woodcock every time we went out this year. But there's no comparison between grouse and woodcock in terms of handling by a dog.


Makings of a fine season there Keith.

Do you keep track of bird flushes in total? As in Jake pointed 82 grouse and in addition to those 82 birds we flushed another 18. Giving him an 82% success rate.

The pointy dog guys I share info with keep track that way. We count every bird heard and count it against the dog if he doesn't get it pointed unless its an obvious reflush, we don't count reflushes.


----------



## 2ESRGR8

Scott Berg said:


> Steelheadfred,
> 
> Putting it in this exact context makes for a more interesting discussion. Trials dogs are developed very differently. They are constantly pushed. The same dogs, most of them anyway, would act very differently if developed to be a hunting companion. I think what happens is that people think in terms of hunting a trial dog. Many of them would probably not produce any more birds for the gun than any other dog. Then again, some of them will. I have spent a fair amount of time working dogs with Dave Terhaar from Michigan and I guarantee you dont want to have a bird finding contest with Rockko in the woods. He probably averages 4-5 productive points/hour on grouse in a hunting (not trialing) situation. JGF hunts with Dave. Thats not really the point. The relevant comparison is not of field trial individuals, but their offspring.
> 
> There are a few breeder / field trailers who appear to like dogs that run to feel the wind blow through their ears. They sometimes are just running, not hunting. They do not do a good job of seeking the best cover, they dont utilize the wind and they dont know how to work cover. These poor examples send hunters running for cover (no pun intended). However, that is not representative of the offspring of field Champion dogs, especially Setters. The good ones are very natural in terms of seeking the best natural objectives where birds are found. They can easily be developed to hunt in a fashion where they are completely under control but also cover a lot of ground and get to the best places. In this context, where a dog covers much more ground but in an intelligent and controlled fashion, and of course are 100% focused on finding birds . What logic could possibly suggest that dog will not have more opportunities to point birds?
> 
> Its not just the additional ground covered. It sounds like you have spend a lot of time in the woods so you know there are many little sweet spots within the woods. The really great dogs consistently demonstrate the intelligence to seek out these prime areas within the much bigger area. Those dogs find a lot of birds and thats what breeding trial type dogs is supposed to be about.
> 
> We have had great success producing hunting dogs out of females that were out of Champions but did not run really big. We kept them because they were exceptionally strong in all other areas. In other words, they were basically one generation removed. Breed them to a male with an exceptional mental make-up and you get a high percentage of ideal type dog described above.
> 
> It does take a little more experience and training skill to develop a bigger going dog. They have to be developed properly to stay with you and handle birds better because you have to be able to trust them. I started with closer working dogs and I spent thousands of hours in the woods. There is no question the dogs we breed today produce more birds then the dogs we started with. I like them to work at a hard going but not frantic pace. There is a big difference between 80% and 100% and yes there are some trial dogs that dont know how to do anything but 100%. I wont feed those dogs. I really cant stand them to be honest. A dog that will put down a good hard going pace but hunt with exceptional intelligence will produce a lot of birds for the gun and they are a lot of fun to hunt behind. A dog that pulls you into birds that you would have never contacted is a whole different game, and its really fun.
> 
> It comes down to do you trust your dog to handle a high percentage of birds. If you believe the dog will handle birds, why in the world would you not want them to stretch out another 100 yards and hit a really good looking thicket? One of the really good things about trialing is that it forces the selection of dogs that are very good at handling game.
> 
> SRB


Thanks for posting that Scott Berg, I enjoyed reading and appreciate the insight.


----------



## dogwhistle

Fix_F16 said:


> Expanding on my original question, are there dogs available out there that were bred for trialing, but don't have 100% of the traits for competition? I understand there are serious trialers/hunters out there and I'm definitely more on the recreational end of the spectrum. I'm wondering if a "reject" would suit me better ... maybe a dog that didn't run big or hard enough. I still would want a dog from respectable breeding, mostly because of the health and temperament risks from "backyard" breeders.


i think you are going in a better direction now.

look at www.dogwoodbirddogs.com cant go wrong is a 2x champion/ru natl champion and the dam is bred higher than hexx. he should fit the bill very nicely. and the idea that field trial dogs cant make house dogs is simply not true. you need high energy and endurance regardless of the range, and they soon adapt to inside living.

i have two cant go wrong offspring by a different dam. the older is everything i would want in a birddog. honestly, the younger dog is not quite as good yet, she's a slower developing dog. but she is thrilling and extremely staunch on point.


----------



## kek25

2ESRGR8 said:


> . . .Do you keep track of bird flushes in total? As in Jake pointed 82 grouse and in addition to those 82 birds we flushed another 18. Giving him an 82% success rate. . .


Scott: 

I didn't keep track of total birds flushed. I'm not sure how we would allocate the flushes to the dogs. We usually had a minimum of 4 dogs down, sometimes 5 or 6 depending on who's hunting with us. All were field bred dogs with medium to big range; 2 or 3 of those were young dogs put down for the experience with the older dogs. The young dogs would bust their share of birds or cause unpointed flushes, but the 4 older dogs don't let many birds get away without being pointed (at least not that we hear flush anyway - - there could be runners I suppose).

I just wish I'd had more time to hunt this year. The younger dogs could have used the ground time.

To the original poster, a "wash out" may or may not be the way to go. If you consider that route make sure the "wash out" was washed out only because of range/style issues and not some inherent or man made problem or lack of nose that couldn't be fixed. Always remember "Caveat Emptor."


----------



## midwestfisherman

I know of a real nice setter female that's for sale that would make an excellent house pet and hunting dog! She already has one hunting season under her. http://members4.boardhost.com/coverdogforsale/msg/1224889246.html


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## FindTheBird

midwestfisherman said:


> I know of a real nice setter female that's for sale that would make an excellent house pet and hunting dog! She already has one hunting season under her. http://members4.boardhost.com/coverdogforsale/msg/1224889246.html


Probably worth some serious consideration at the very least.


----------



## midwestfisherman

midwestfisherman said:


> I know of a real nice setter female that's for sale that would make an excellent house pet and hunting dog! She already has one hunting season under her. http://members4.boardhost.com/coverdogforsale/msg/1224889246.html


Here's a pic from a couple of days ago of Rowan.


----------



## Scott Berg

2ESRGR8 said:


> Thanks for posting that Scott Berg, I enjoyed reading and appreciate the insight.


Scott,

It makes for a very interesting discussion if everyone keeps an open mind, including me. Some of this stuff is impossible to prove definitively. 

I am interested in how your Pointer developedr. What type of range does he have and what did you do in terms developing the range and pattern that suited you. And, was the experience significantly different from your Setters. Did you see other differences? What bloodlines is he?

SRB


----------



## geojasstef

"10 month old setter. Female, has been spayed and is up to date on shots, vet checks, heart worm etc. Rowan has excellent drive in the field and has been hunted this fall. She is conditioned to the e-collar. She is very classy in the field! 

She has had several grouse points this fall so far and has handled them well for her age. She is not broke but is holding until I get in front of her at this point. I've recently started her on some light bench/barrel work to help steady her up a little more. 

She is house broke and crate trained and has spent time in an outdoor kennel. She travels very well. Very loving personality and wants to please. Loves to be with her people. She is in excellent shape and is a bird nut! 

I am unable to give this pup the time she needs and deserves at this time due to a serious illness in our family. I'd like to see her go to a good hunting home. 

$700 

Contact # 734-467-4556 or email at [email protected]"

sounds like a great dog and realy nice looking too,


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## kek25

Nice looking pup Jim. Who's the young lady with the beautiful smile?





midwestfisherman said:


> Here's a pic from a couple of days ago of Rowan.


----------



## midwestfisherman

kek25 said:


> Nice looking pup Jim. Who's the young lady with the beautiful smile?


That would be my daughter Allison.


----------



## Steelheadfred

midwestfisherman said:


> That would be my daughter Allison.


Brave man you are Jim for posting that picture.


----------



## FindTheBird

geojasstef said:


> ...$700
> 
> sounds like a great dog and realy nice looking too,


Digging deeper into the post, it looks like Jim lowered the price to $350.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

kek25 said:


> To the original poster, a "wash out" may or may not be the way to go. If you consider that route make sure the "wash out" was washed out only because of range/style issues and not some inherent or man made problem or lack of nose that couldn't be fixed. Always remember "Caveat Emptor."


Roger that.

I thought better of using that term after I posted it but its one that's commonly used in the birddog business. By that I mean a young dog thats been with a pro or a serious amateur who's just not gonna make it as a top drawer field trial competitor, for one reason or another. And there are many like that. I personally know of pointing dogs of various breeds, spaniels and retrievers who fit into this group and who became dandy gun dogs and boon hunting companions. 

As a recent example, a male pointer pup, barely 6 months old, was offered "Free to a Good Home" on a doggie BB. This pup was bred in the purple, out of two illustrious multiple Champions, and had been well socialized, started on pen raised and wild birds and looked like a million dollars on point. I know the owner had paid a looooong price for him as a weanling puppy. The reason for placement was stated: "This pup is not going to make a grouse trial dog"

This pup was placed in 20 minutes.

If you are looking at a started dog of any kind, *BE SURE* you get a satisfactory showing in the field, on birds, and *WITHOUT* an e-collar around his neck. And if you dont know what you are looking for in a started dog, then take somebody along who does!!!

Caveat Emptor, indeed.

Natty B.


----------



## kek25

midwestfisherman said:


> That would be my daughter Allison.


Thankfully, Allison took after Caroline in the looks department. :lol: She does have a beautiful smile!!


----------



## 2ESRGR8

Scott Berg said:


> Scott,
> 
> It makes for a very interesting discussion if everyone keeps an open mind, including me. Some of this stuff is impossible to prove definitively.
> 
> I am interested in how your Pointer developedr. What type of range does he have and what did you do in terms developing the range and pattern that suited you. And, was the experience significantly different from your Setters. Did you see other differences? What bloodlines is he?
> 
> SRB


My Pointer is out Hifive Jasmine X Sugarknoll Buckshot.

This pup is all fast twitch, drive, and run.
My setters were more subdued at 9 months old, they took a couple seasons to really start hunting cover this dog isn'ty really hunting yet just running for now but she would take you to the horizon if you let her. 

Without micro managing it too much I'd say puppies are puppies and they're all knuckleheads.
I got caught up in the "pointers mature faster" mentality and my expectations were unrealistic this year. I've re-evaluated that and won't amke judgements just yet as to how this dog will turn out.
She's mine for life now and I'll give her every chance it takes to make her into a wild birddog. Even if it takes 3 years like it did with my best setter.

Ironically, this pup is a very nice house dog and pet.
My wife loves her whereas it took her a couple years to warm to my big male setter.

I'm sending her with Pro Bruce Minard next week, hopefully he can put a steering wheel on her for me. 
She's too much dog for my training abilities, I never said that about my Setters. Simply a matter of drive.
But that's what I bought her for, I wanted more speed, more drive, more heat tolerance.....I got it in spades.


----------



## Scott Berg

Scott,

She is beautiful animal. Bruce will get a handle on her. He is a great trainer and will know exactly what to do with this type of dog. A couple years ago Bruce talked about coming to our walking Championship that runs after the MN Grouse CH but we have not seen him yet. We are moving the trial up a week so that it will run right after the MN & WI Championships. That will help Bruce and Vance Butler fit the trial into their schedules. Bob Ecker came last year and loved the grounds and he is coming back. I will have to give Bruce a call and tell him about the timing of the trials.

I wondered just how high powered you had gone and Sugarknoll Buckshot is the real deal field trial dog. That's alot of power in the woods but I bet she will be great when you get it harnessed .

By the way, I do have one Setter marked like the Ryman Style dog. She is out of CH Hytest Skyhawk and a sister to CH Stone Taven Matrix. This photo was taken at about 9 months of age. She was one of the easiest dogs I ever broke. She was dead broke at 14 months with no pressure. 

SRB


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## midwestfisherman

FindTheBird said:


> Digging deeper into the post, it looks like Jim lowered the price to $350.


That is correct.


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## dogwhistle

scott, from what my trialing friends tell me and what i've seen of find the birds pup, minard likes pretty wide running dogs. i like mikes pup and if i were to buy a pointer, that would be the type i'd look for. but they are all different and the one that has it altogether from the start is probably fairly rare.

i've got two full sisters that are alike in some ways but very different in others. and two half sisters with dams that are worlds apart that seem like clones.

at any rate, i'll be very surprised if your pup isnt doing very well this fall if not sooner. and when he does you will be thrilled.


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## midwestfisherman

Steelheadfred said:


> Brave man you are Jim for posting that picture.


Behave Fred!



kek25 said:


> Thankfully, Allison took after Caroline in the looks department. :lol: She does have a beautiful smile!!


It is fortunate that she took after her mother!


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## midwestfisherman

Scott, Katers is looking good. When she gets back from being with Bruce you'll notice a big difference in her (for the better). I remember the first time that I sent several of my dogs away with Bruce, they all came back for the better. Handled better, listend better, acted more mature and had one thing on their mind when hitting the woods and that is birds. A lot of the craziness was redirected and funneled into one main goal....finding birds!

I think this fall you'll see a huge difference in Katers. I would not be surprised if she'll be sticking her birds quite nicely. I hope we get a chance to hunt together next fall. I'd love an opportunity to hunt with you and Katers.


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## FindTheBird

dogwhistle said:


> ...i like mikes pup and if i were to buy a pointer, that would be the type i'd look for.


I think that Bruce and Dan Ross (owner) are having Rudy bred again this year: here's your chance Mike!:lol:



dogwhistle said:


> at any rate, i'll be very surprised if your pup isnt doing very well this fall if not sooner. and when he does you will be thrilled


I agree: both sire and dam are super dogs with Buckshot a possible future hall of famer. I'm far from an expert on puppy development, but I'm sure with a little bird exposure and a little range "enforcement" Kate will live up to her pedigree in spades.


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## FindTheBird

midwestfisherman said:


> Scott, Katers is looking good. When she gets back from being with Bruce you'll notice a big difference in her (for the better). I remember the first time that I sent several of my dogs away with Bruce, they all came back for the better. Handled better, listend better, acted more mature and had one thing on their mind when hitting the woods and that is birds. A lot of the craziness was redirected and funneled into one main goal....finding birds!
> 
> I think this fall you'll see a huge difference in Katers. I would not be surprised if she'll be sticking her birds quite nicely. I hope we get a chance to hunt together next fall. I'd love an opportunity to hunt with you and Katers.


Absolutely. My Major went from being lukewarm at best on grouse to what I'd consider a very reasonable grouse dog in one year beginning with that trip--that's why I'm sending the new pup this year.


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## dogwhistle

i'm pretty well stocked with dogs right now and i'm happy with the kind of dogs i have.

"setters" covers a lot of ground, more so than pointers in types or strains. i think if you narrow it to trial bred dogs, there are differences but not as great. sometime in private i'll tell you what a friend, a very knowledgeable setter man, told me.

i think scott let his dog run and just have fun, which is not a bad thing and much better than cracking down on a pup. bruce or any good trainer will just start him to school in a positve way and show him there are things that are even more fun than tearing up the countryside. and it's much better and easier to do that where wild birds are plentiful. setups with penraised birds are ok, but it's easy to overdo and make more problems than you solve.

i used to work young dogs on half grown pheasants but they are hard to find these days. but if plans work out, i'll trailer north after the ban and run them on grouse up north.

they are nice dogs and i admire them. i'll look forward to seeing rocky when he gets back and what he learned in school. but i doubt that i will own a pointer. i should be set with two braces and a spare and wont be lookiing for another for sometime- my oldest is 7 and the rest are pretty young. not counting my retired llewellin.


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## Unregistered4

2ESRGR8 said:


> My Pointer


How did we get to the point in this "OH/Ryman/Llewellin setter topic" to where were talking about "your" pointer??? 



> but she _would_ take you to the horizon if you let her.


Don't you mean...will...and has?



> I'd say puppies are puppies and they're all knuckleheads.


Hey, I'm telling Deputy ya said that. And, just because he likes to go off and see the countryside while he's out and about hunting...doesn't mean he's a knucklehead...I'd say that applies more to the guy that trained him...or was _suppose_ to train him I should say.


Brian.


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## 2ESRGR8

Unregistered4 said:


> How did we get to the point in this "OH/Ryman/Llewellin setter topic" to where were talking about "your" pointer???
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you mean...will...and has?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, I'm telling Deputy ya said that. And, just because he likes to go off and see the countryside while he's out and about hunting...doesn't mean he's a knucklehead...I'd say that applies more to the guy that trained him...or was _suppose_ to train him I should say.
> 
> 
> Brian.


 Yes to all the above. 
Deputy will be fine. You need to catch him in the act one time chasing a deer and then smoke him good. That's all it'll take.
I got lucky and caught Jack at an early age. 
Don't tell your wife(or Deputy, or Nash, or Gwen) but Emma may be your best dog in the end. :yikes:


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