# BS ticket!!! worth fighting?



## Adam Peterson (Mar 20, 2006)

So we hunted out in presque isle off of the old lighthouse in the layout boat. Was a very slow morning and we had 2 scoters, 1 red, one bill, and one buffie by 9:00. We only had three guys today so there was two in the layout and one in the tender. After not shooting for at least 2 hours we decided to go in. When we get to the launch the CO is there ans tries his hardest to give us several tickets it seemed.
Checked the guns, shells, everything in tender boat, license. After all that checks out he says "how many of those birds were taken illegally" of course we say none. Then he pulles out the hunting guide and makes me read bullet seven which talks about rallying birds. He then asks again so do you want to change your answer to the pervious question. We again say none were taken illegally. So he replies "well im giving you, you, and you a ticket for rallying.
Apparently it must be illegal to run from the shore to swap out guys and pick up dead or cripple ducks. The only running we were really doing was around one of the points and into this bay to see if birds were landing there so we could setup on them in the moring. I sware on my life we didnt shoot one duck that was so called rallyed by the tender boat. 
So what do you guys think. Should we take this to court and fight it or what?

If anyone is hunting PI county in the near future watch out!!!


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## duckingaround (Aug 3, 2010)

As BS as it sounds that it is, sometimes it's just easier to pay the nice man and not waste anymore of your time (missed work, missed hunting, etc) for a case you may or may not win(your word against his). 

Best case is he doesn't show up but since there is 3 of you he most likely would (saying all three are fighting it). 

Sucks, but thats my take on it.


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## Gander Club (Dec 31, 2004)

Go ahead and pay the ticket...The misdemeanor on your record will be just the ticket to deny you a cpl if you ever try to get one!

PS If you were shooting crips from a moving boat, you WERE rallying.


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## charcoal300zxtt (Sep 8, 2011)

Fight it! If you dont win in court you still have to pay it anyway so i say go for it.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Adam Peterson said:


> The only running we were really doing was around one of the points and into this bay to see if birds were landing there so we could setup on them in the moring.


this sentence right here does not help your case. few key words in there from you which leads me to believe this is exactly what the ticket was for.

i'm not judging but i was on your side til i read the wording of that sentence.


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## Adam Peterson (Mar 20, 2006)

Thought about that, but apparently this is a misdeminor and not even sure how much this is going be! Plus I have an absolute clean record so I don't need that BS on there!


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## Adam Peterson (Mar 20, 2006)

No cripples were shot from the boat! Like I said there wasn't one duck that was shot from "rallying".


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

well... paying the tickets is the easiest.... but if you were wrongfully ticketed than yes go to court... if possible I would contact the office and see if you can talk with the CO... scouting while hunting is not illegal... the question is was your tender under power when any of the birds were taken... that may have lead him to give the tickets... I don't think he was trying to give you several tickets just because he checked your guns and equip... that is his job... talk with him and see if fully understood what you were doing...


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## rentalrider (Aug 8, 2011)

I say fight it.


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## Adam Peterson (Mar 20, 2006)

4/5 of the ducks were shot at first light when I was sitting in the boat anchored off one of the points. The last duck the buffie came in when I was in the layout and was the only shot I took while in there!


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## lastflighttaxidermy (Jul 12, 2010)

ive always wondered this same scenerio. if you never shot while motoring your fine and its up to you if you want to take the time to fight it. dont know what id do. i always check where birds go when we are hunting to move for the next day. to me thats good hunting practice. if your truthful in your statement it does suck, big time. but i dont have an answer for you.


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## JBooth (Sep 21, 2009)

Sounds like the old guy up there? Did you catch his name by chance? We ran into a younger CO over the summer that was great to have around.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

7th bullet: By driving, rallying or chasing birds with any motorized conveyance or any sailboat to put them in the range of hunters.
[/COLOR] 
I would fight it unless he were actually doing it and he saw you from boat launch doing it. I have never encounter a CO going out of his way trying to give me a ticket. Once we came back after PM hunt and he gave us a warning for not having navigation light. I got a warning another time for not having a life jacket. I do not think he can give you a ticket just guessing what have done. He should have a solid evidence of you doing something illegal. During any layout shooting, any other boat running around is doing that since he makes birds fly around and go to somebody's spread. My guess is he saw you or will say in court that he saw you from shore doing it. Did he give a ticket to others for the same reason?


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

There's a difference between shooting ducks from a moving boat and rallying birds.

Rallying will be very hard to prove. I would say fight it - make him prove intent.

We hunt a lake - hunt a point. After the shooting starts, the ducks land in the middle of the lake. The launch is on the opposite side. So is where we stay. So when we leave people behind on the point, and buzz to the launch to get something or to the lodge to get lunch, are we rallying? Are all the boaters that come out on nice days and run around rallying? 

I'm pretty sure the rules say you cannot use a motor boat under power to put birds in range, but I've jumped birds with the boat that flew across the lake, landed in a bay, and then an hour later came out of the bay and worked the decoys. Rallying?

This is really, really gray. I would talk to him, and if it's not handled well, take it to court.


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## ahartz (Dec 28, 2000)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> There's a difference between shooting ducks from a moving boat and rallying birds.
> 
> Rallying will be very hard to prove. I would say fight it - make him prove intent.
> 
> ...


Best advice yet...I agree.....


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## Duck-Hunter (Mar 31, 2005)

You learned the hard way, scout when the rig is packed up. 

You can try and fight it but soon as they explain in court what rallying is and you admit running around that point with a guy in the layout and birds kicking up. There is a good chance they are slapping you with the ticket. Especially if there was more then one trip around the point.


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## TrekJeff (Sep 7, 2007)

He has the burden of proof. I say fight it. He has to prove that you were actually rallying birds.


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## bad dog (Mar 31, 2004)

It's going to be a difficult ticket to beat. You may want to negotiate it down so you don't end up with the misdemeanor on your record. I'd get a lawyer if your not sure how to go about it.


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## Sea Duck (Jul 9, 2001)

My observation is that a substantial percentage of layout rigs tend to violate this regulation, often without even knowing that they are in violation. Time and time again I see layout tenders that don't anchor out between switching hunters and picking up dead birds or chasing cripples. Instead, they motor around, drift for awhile, motor some more, buzz way offshore and push up some large rafts, etc., etc. Even if the tender is not rallying, observers from shore will see what appears to be rallying when the tender spends time buzzing around (for whatever reason) and will call the RAP line and then you will have a CO waiting at the ramp for you. So whether or not you fight this ticket, I think the lesson learned here is don't run around in the tender while you have someone hunting from the layout. You can't go wrong just motoring back and forth from the layout to your anchor point.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

sorry, agree with the 2 posters above. the ticket is for rallying. if he had a guy or 2 in the layout boat...and was driving around the point repeatedly, can totally see this being seen as rallying.

what i don't get is all the guys on here saying fight it, CO's got to prove it...I personally think the CO will hang this guy in a courtroom if he fights it.

theres a major post on here every year bitching about this very problem. someone gets busted for it and everyone jumps on the CO.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

D-Fresh said:


> Yup, and we all can post about it until we are blue in the face. Bottom line is that we have no idea what happened.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw that you added this part. Hopefully dead short can step in here and give us the real answer to that question. Do you have to shoot at birds to fall under the "attempt to take" or is just chasing the birds up with the boat in hopes of them coming close enough for a shot grounds for a citation? I don't know the answer to that question, but if I had to guess I'd say that just the act of chasing in an attempt to shoot would qualify for rallying, regardless of shots being fired.


Would be nice info to have.


I asked a couple years ago (when season for Can's was closed) if I had to pull the Can decoys out of my rig and if merely having the decoys for that specie out would constitute "attempting to take".
The answer I got was: firing at = attempting to take.


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## Sea Duck (Jul 9, 2001)

walleyeslammer1 said:


> The problem is that this infraction is A BS ticket and you all no it! so I cant go for a boat ride while guys are in the layout boat? simmple question? If I do not go chase birds? This leaves an open ticket for any CO to give just for the Hell of it!


Why go for a boat ride? Isn't the tender boat supposed to be there to tend the layout boat. Shouldn't it be close enough to the layout to keep an eye out for trouble of any kind (accident in the layout, cruiser on collision course, etc.)? Isn't it better to stay close in case the layout has a crippled bird?  In my opinion the temptation to "go for a ride", is generally a veiled excuse to move birds when shooting is slow in the layout. Don't do it. It doesn't help anyone in the long run. Besides, if you have a little patience, eventually a perch jerk or muskie maniac or late season basser or even a pleasure boat will eventually reset the deck every hour or so on most days here at Lake St. Clair.


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## Iceman_101 (Jan 11, 2009)

I would fight it. If you guys really think that you didn't do anything wrong then why wouldn't you fight it? But when in court just be sincere and thoughtful, the CO was doing his job. He may have been running around all day or all year for that fact and he could have had to deal with some people who were jerks about this sitituation. Just tell the judge what happen(expalin EVERYTHING you did and your intent) and apologize for the misunderstanding. Also like stated on here earlier go to the CO and ask if you could meet up with him and talk about what happened. Just be thoughtful when in court if something is stated by the CO that is wrong don't get mad and yell out he's wrong. Just wait till he's done and then tell your side of the story. Also if you guys all have a clean record then the judge might see that and say, oh this is just a misunderstanding between the CO and you guys and let you guys off. 

Thats just my .02 cents worth its up to you guys what you want to do.

Iceman_101


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## windknot (Jul 22, 2001)

SuperBlackEagle2 said:


> You're going to end up paying it anyway.


NO. DONT JUST PAY IT. 

First and foremost, stop looking for legal advice from a bunch of waterfowl hunters. 

SEEK YOUR LEGAL ADVICE FROM AN ATTORNEY. 

If rallying is a misdemeanor, you've gotta hire an attorney - to remedy, remove or renegotiate a plea to a lesser charge. A misdemeanor is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE. 

Many jobs, applications for credit, Concealed Pistol Licenses (as a previous poster noted) - hell, even buying a gun in the future *MAY BE HINDERED BY A CRIMINAL CONVICTION* and if you "JUST PAY IT," you're admitting to committing a criminal act. 

Hire an attorney to give you the advice you need. 

Look to us to BBIITTCCHH and moan - we'll bbiittcchh and moan right along with you.......but you shouldn't be looking to any of us for legal advice. 

(The preceding is from a retired cop)


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## walleyeslammer1 (May 29, 2009)

ANYONE no how much this ticket is?


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## 1BIGNIMROD (May 7, 2009)

Someone may have wrote this already but...
what if i shoot one, cripple it, and head out to retrieve it.Rallying?
what if i shoot one, cripple it, and not go after it. Unsportsman like but legal? i have gone after them and retrieved some without shooting but that is still rallying right? Not trying to hijack but i sure would like to hear the answer. 
PS that is BS and fight it as far as you have to and NEVER admit guilt!rotest_e


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

windknot said:


> NO. DONT JUST PAY IT.
> 
> First and foremost, stop looking for legal advice from a bunch of waterfowl hunters.
> 
> ...


This is the BEST advice so far. Hunting violations are ALL misdemeanors, they are NOT Civil Infractions like a traffic ticket where the points eventually drop off your record. Once a misdemeanor is on your record it is virtually impossible to get expunged/removed. Pleading guilty to a misdemeanor (i.e. just paying the fine) is admitting to a criminal offense. Additionally all waterfowling violations are also FEDERAL Violations, meaning that if you are found guilty, you are guilty of both a State and a Federal crime. You DO NOT want that. Period. Someday that may have a bearing on what you may or may not be permitted to do, like perhaps owning/posessing a firearm or getting a CPL. And because it's FEDERAL, it will follow you and remain visibly on your record to any law enforcement acency even if you move out of state. I'm not going to tell you to fight this ticket because you're in the right and it's a BS ticket. It may or may not be, but that's not the point. I suggest that you get an attorney and do whatever it takes to make sure that this incident does not follow you around for the rest of your life. It may cost you much more than the fee for the violation, but in the long run you will be much better off.

And next time, when you have a hunter in the layout, anchor your tender, and don't move it unless you are changing out hunters, chasing obvious cripples, or packing up. You don't want to even give the appearance of anything else.


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

Here are the answers to your questions:



1BIGNIMROD said:


> Someone may have wrote this already but...
> what if i shoot one, cripple it, and head out to retrieve it.Rallying? NO. Because you are actively in pursuit of a cripple. It's about your intent: You are not intending to rally birds, you are intending to bring a cripple to hand.
> 
> what if i shoot one, cripple it, and not go after it. Unsportsman like but legal? NO, it is NOT legal. You must make every effort to retrieve crippled game. To not do so is an offense called Wanton Waste. And YES, it is unsportsmanlike.
> ...


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## Sea Duck (Jul 9, 2001)

Shlwego said:


> And next time, when you have a hunter in the layout, anchor your tender, and don't move it unless you are changing out hunters, chasing obvious cripples, or packing up. You don't want to even give the appearance of anything else.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

I hate to rain on your parade somemore. Certain misdemenors in the USA are considered felonies in Canada which would prevent you from crossing the border (ie. no more hunting in Canada, esp trying to bring in a firearm). Dont know if it pertains to this charge.

Speaking with a lawyer would be my next step, regardless.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

First of all, don't fault the CO for doing his job. That's what we pay him for. I've been checked many times. Sometimes a full search of the boat and it's contents and other times just my license. No worries. Legal every time.

Second, if you believe you're innocent, then plead "not guilty". It's the *PROSECUTOR* who will determine how they will go forward, NOT the CO. At the pre-trial conference with the Prosecutor, explain your story and try to plea it down. If you have a clean record, chances are that the judge will go along with the Prosecutor's recommendation - maybe keep your nose clean for 6 months and charges will be dismissed. 

Third, if you're unsure of how to go about it, then by all means hire a lawyer. It's going to cost you more than just paying the ticket, but chances are that it will not show up on your record if a probationary plea is worked out. 

Fourth, I do not believe there is any "set" fine for this misdemeanor. It's the judges discretion. Up to $500 fine and 90 in jail max + court costs and restitution.

Consider it an expensive lesson.

I am not a lawyer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm guessing the CO's version is far different than the hunters, seems to be the case 99% of the time.


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## walleyeslammer1 (May 29, 2009)

up to 500$ and or up to 90 days in jail that is an absol joke you can drive deer why cant you rally ducks! like I origin said BS ticket open ended for a CO to give at his discreation


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## Contender (May 18, 2004)

Friend & I both received tickets some years back for... "Possession of a firearm, in an area frequented by wild game and birds". Ticket was issued by MSP.

They always have an out, if they need one, just to write a ticket. I took my ticket to court, and even the judge could not disagree with my question. 

"When I walk out my front door, when am I not in an area frequented by wild game & birds? "

End result - I was still guilty, lost a day of work, paid court costs & $150 fine. My buddy, just mailed in his $150.00. 

Real Offense - We were shooting targets stapled to stumps, on state land in July. Sighting in rifles and pistols. We were not wearing hunter orange, and did not have current hunting licenses for that year. Never mind that no hunting seasons were open, and we were not hunting, cause that only makes sense - LOL. 

We were not at an approved 'range', but there is no ticket for that. The MSP trooper was on the radio with a local CO, while the CO dug through a book until they found the "wild game & birds" clause.


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## Sea Duck (Jul 9, 2001)

walleyeslammer1 said:


> you can drive deer why cant you rally ducks!


You are kidding here right? Can you legally drive deer with ORV's or motorcycles, 4-wheelers, or snow-mobiles here in Michigan??? I'm thinking not. Anyways, that's a pretty funny quote...unless you're serious, then it's just plain sad.


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## T.J. (Mar 1, 2009)

i ben pretty fortunate all the CO's i ever interacted with seam to be level headed people.


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## waterfowlhunter83 (Aug 10, 2005)

BigR said:


> I'm guessing the CO's version is far different than the hunters, seems to be the case 99% of the time.


Darn CO's making up stories


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

1BIGNIMROD said:


> Someone may have wrote this already but...
> what if i shoot one, cripple it, and head out to retrieve it.Rallying?
> what if i shoot one, cripple it, and not go after it. Unsportsman like but legal? i have gone after them and retrieved some without shooting but that is still rallying right? Not trying to hijack but i sure would like to hear the answer.
> PS that is BS and fight it as far as you have to and NEVER admit guilt!rotest_e


Thats what im wondering?:rant:
Sounds like a total BS ticket you got, we do the exact same thing as you did. Hook up a couple tenders and occas make a run back to the dock to get pizza or drop off hunters. I woulda got a ticket too.
*FIGHT THE MAN* 
Cops are scum anyway


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## walleyeslammer1 (May 29, 2009)

I was kidding sea duck , but you can drive your vehicle around in the woods just like you should b able to drive your boat around on the water, and not get a ticket,


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## R.J.M. (Jun 10, 2007)

Why don't you call and ask the court for an appearance date of Nov.15 about 9am. I would think you may have a good chance.


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