# FUR MARKET REPORT



## furandhides

*Kopenhagen concluded their 10 day sale on Tues.. Results were mediocre in terms of price advances that could affect wild fur $$. Just under 1 million brown females alone. Way too many. Optimism is low for successes on most articles on the upcoming NAFA and FHA sales. A major retreat in oil prices and geopolitical uncertainty add to the downward pressure on the market. The big "wait till the end of season to sell" mentality by the major auction houses, appears to have been a bad call. *


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## furandhides

Day 1 of the NAFA sale. Heavy coyotes did well as was expected. Red Fox sold poorly with ave. in the teens. Gray Fox were bought back. The rest of the offering yesterday consisted of the misc. furs. More wild fur on Wed..


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## furandhides

The apparent lack of any interest in Gray Fox at the sale=there will be little interest in our type of ****. I'm afraid that the **** market is dead. The crash came on 3 years ago. We have made no progress on this item. The **** hunter here, certainly has become an endangered species. Pretty much a discontinued item going forward.


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## furandhides

Looks like another tough season here in Mi. The ****, with the rat, IS the fur business in Mi.. I remember being at Crandalls in Mancelona during the boom. We bought $50,000 **** in the week prior to gun deer opener. If you bought fur, the success of your season was determined by Thanksgiving. I don't believe that I've had more than a call or two in the past few years from a **** hunter. Times have really changed. I've been paying $4-5 ave. on the 300-400 **** that I've bought each of the past several seasons. Shipped to international sales, lose 10-15%. I can honestly say that I am the highest market. Had 379 **** on last auction, sold 116 for exactly a $5 ave. before comm.. All were XXX and XXL, cept for 1 XL A color. That was the GOOD **** sale at FHA. There were a couple trappers at the Houghton Lake sale that had about 3 dozen green ****, no dinks, brought $2. Buying green **** now is like getting the **** and skinning for free, and giving the guys a little $$ to help with gas. With Willy Stephens dead, is anyone still buying carcass ****?


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## micooner

Nope and what a depressing but true observation.


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## gilgetter

Are willies boy still buying


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## wicklundrh

Willy passed away? Darn it. I take a year off and the next thing you know????

Last time I chatted with Willy, he was sitting on thousands of **** from a few years back. He bought truck loads when the market was up around 15 bucks for a good 18 to 20 pounder. Unfortunately, that year tanked at sales and he was sitting on a bunch. The next year, he doubled down hoping to purchase just as many at 4 or 5 bucks in the hopes to break even with the overall sales average. It didn't work out.

I'll have to check in and report back. He isn't far from my place.

Thanks FurandHides for the news. Good or bad, at least you reported what you see. The outlook sure looks grim.

The bad thing is that I continue to get calls from farmers asking to get rid of nuiscance *****. It is hard to tell them no but, when the numbers work out, you are actually paying them to get rid of problem. We are going to have a population issue on our hands within a few years if this keeps up.

I enjoy to trap and don't necessarily do it for the money. I love to pass on the traditions to my daughter but... the lessons now will have to be about population control. They always were geared that way in the past however, we had an outlet for the animals we took. It is always hard to control populations and then simply dispose of the animal. Just seems like such a waste.


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## furandhides

I'd heard second hand that the boys were going to continue to buy some deer and beefhides, but were out of the fur end. If anyone should go into the Mi. Furbuyers Hall of Fame, ought to be Willy. He was a real character. Hadn't seen him in a number of years. Maybe 4 years ago, when it looked like fur was hot again, he showed up at the convention in Evart. Someone grabbed me from behind in a bear hug, it was Willy. He was a great guy. We had some fun times together at the HBC sales in Toronto, been a few years ago.


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## furandhides

**** sale over. Nothing changed. I'm afraid that the guys that decided to ship their rats are going to hopefully no sale, or else fire sale like last season. Having a very bad feeling about the rats. Hopefully, I'm wrong. We will see on Friday.


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## Patrickr

furandhides said:


> **** sale over. Nothing changed. I'm afraid that the guys that decided to ship their rats are going to hopefully no sale, or else fire sale like last season. Having a very bad feeling about the rats. Hopefully, I'm wrong. We will see on Friday.


I've enjoyed your analysis of the current market conditions and auction results thus far. I am hopeful that the rat prices and sale percentages are profitable but I doubt it at this time. I agree this is a very small narrowly defined market for select prime goods. Unfortunately most of variables, as you have pointed out, are out of the trapper's control. It takes a really sharp pencil and great time and line management skills to make a small profit at fur trapping today. This when trappers need to learn to trap as if it were a part time business. The numbers don't lie and they can make you a better trapper. Just my opinion.


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## wicklundrh

Willy taught me quite a few things over the years. Was always eagar to share. Especially because he knew that I did not come off as a "no it all" and was willing to take advice.

I would usually stop by once a week with my catch. I would deep freeze them in two freezers in my barn. We would always do a bet on one of my **** catches. He would lift it and guess the weight. I would then guess my weight. Whoever was closer got a dollar from the other guy! It took him 5 times of losing to figure out that I weighted all my ***** before I brought them to him!!!! I also dropped off several deer hides to him over the years. I managed a few properties and always helped the guys out buy skinning their deer. Willie loved the way I skinned, rolled, and froze my hides. After getting to know me, when he asked small, medium, large, or XL, he knew he could trust me!

He had a **** missing a tail that was behind the counter. He was proud of that ****. He told me the story one day. Jeff Daniels was in Chelsea doing a version of "Escanaba in Da Moonlight". For whatever reason, they needed a racoon tail. The theater called Willy. He brought it over and they gave him and his wife tickets to the show!!!


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## Patrickr

I don't know who Willie is, but I sure miss hanging out at Jack Van Hoose's fur shed and selling my fur to him and his son Steve. Great guys and their absence has left a void in this area.They were real good at helping the new and young trappers out.


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## DirtySteve

I have been watching the reports and the nafa sale. I have 58 skins mostly rats in the auction. We had 2 ***** in the auction. Both were large. One was graded select with clr 3. The other was SDA clr 3. Their lots didn't sell Wednesday but I looked today and they sold at private treaty for $6.... $3 avg.

I know it seems really stupid to get excited about $3 ***** but I was just amazed they actually sold and it wasn't 50 cents. To be honest the one **** I thought for sure would be thrown away. I only skinned and fleshed it for the practice.


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## furandhides

Sale over. Otter, better than last season, nothing great. Beaver, never seen it this bad. Rats didn't sell at the auction, should move private treaty?? or they will hold. Mink, couple dollars over what was expected. Looks like a tough deal for most shippers in our section. Unless you weren't expecting much if anything


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## furandhides

Anybody get the $6-7 ave. on their rats ??


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## DirtySteve

furandhides said:


> Sale over. Otter, better than last season, nothing great. Beaver, never seen it this bad. Rats didn't sell at the auction, should move private treaty?? or they will hold. Mink, couple dollars over what was expected. Looks like a tough deal for most shippers in our section. Unless you weren't expecting much if anything


I listened to most of the wild fur sections of beavers muskrat and mink. It seemed to me the only muskrats that sold were the lower quality medium sized goods. Nafa was not budging on price for larger goods. I sold one muskrat out of 46. I must say I am happy with the mink prices. I thought all the mink went for decent money considering the state of the market today. Beaver avg was bad but from what I saw all sold with the exception of 2 small damage lots.


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## DirtySteve

furandhides said:


> Anybody get the $6-7 ave. on their rats ??


If they sell them all in private treaty sales for the minimum prices nafa was asking I will probably avg $6......I am not holding my breath!


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## bigdaddyfischer

Only moved 5% of my rats. 5.90 ave so far. Hope for some private treaty sales. Maybe I should have taken a ride to St Charles? lol


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## DirtySteve

bigdaddyfischer said:


> Only moved 5% of my rats. 5.90 ave so far. Hope for some private treaty sales. Maybe I should have taken a ride to St Charles? lol


Yeah I feel the same way. I have planned on going to st Charles many times but my kids have had something going on that took precedent every time. One of these days I will make it happen.


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## furandhides

Thanks guys. I do believe that this season, the rat market may have been in St. Charles.


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## furandhides

Unusual for Mi. rats to be in the Central section. I see theres no report from NAFA and just about no chatter on Trapperman. The board is usually lit up. That means not good. See what happens at FHA. Miss not seeing you at the stop bigdaddy. Always a pleasure. Would like to find a place for another stop somewhere. good luck to everyone with their stuff. And Steve, you're just too easy to please. I guess in this market going into it and not expecting a lot, probably smart.


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## bigdaddyfischer

_The St Charles stop didn't prevent me from seeing you Roger, it was the $5 number that was stuck in my head. lol. And yes it was always a pleasure! _


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## furandhides

Always easy for the auction houses to tell the trapper a buck or two over reality. Harder to pull it out of the wallet when it's just not there, and you're the guy paying the bill. Honestly, and in reality, at least here in Mi., prices in the country as a rule are where its at. Just the way it is in the 50 years that I've been following it. I haven't been able to sell rats in several years now. We tried and tried this season. There just wasn't any interest at profitable levels. The guys that sold here in the state, most probably the winners again this season. Anyone need 20,000 rats????


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## Patrickr

furandhides said:


> Always easy for the auction houses to tell the trapper a buck or two over reality. Harder to pull it out of the wallet when it's just not there, and you're the guy paying the bill. Honestly, and in reality, at least here in Mi., prices in the country as a rule are where its at. Just the way it is in the 50 years that I've been following it. I haven't been able to sell rats in several years now. We tried and tried this season. There just wasn't any interest at profitable levels. The guys that sold here in the state, most probably the winners again this season. Anyone need 20,000 rats????


FurandHides, you said the magic words, "There just wasn't any interest at profitable levels." Trappers need to know how to calculate their costs to produce and record it daily so they can learn to become a more efficient trapper, what specie(s) they should focus on, and even whether or not they should trap in any given season due to poor markets. Trapping is business just like fur buying. Knowing your costs to produce will greatly improve a trapper's time and line management as well, which is where a lot of money can be made by the observant trapper. Just my opinion.


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## furandhides

$50-75 nuisance beaver, you get pelt and castor. The only profitable trapping left here in Mi.. And the guy that got a big rat marsh in their backyards and aren't looking to make a fortune. Or the hobby trapper that doesn't care about $$$ or the guys that would pay to trap, like many other hobbies. It is not going to be better next season. sales at these levels are detrimental to $$ growth in the future. The Chinese still kicking themselves in the arse for not scooping up the $2-2.50 rats last year, and letting speculating mink ranchers make $$ off them.


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## bigdaddyfischer

Its a great hobby that sometimes pays for itself, a win-win in my opinion. Some just take their hobbies more serious than others. Probably should have sold most in St Charles and chased the big bucks with a few. Ya win some, lose some.


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## furandhides

What happens at FHA will be interesting. Usually they sell prior to NAFA. Last year FHA was the first to firesale. Lets see if they hold the line this time. I've never seen an odder chain of events in the rat market, beginning a year ago. You could write a short story on the subject.


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## furandhides

Last season FHA firesales xxx-xxl #1 rats at $3.30. Several days later the same assortment brings $4.50 at NAFA. Got to be somebody bidding in the room. Can't only have 1 or 2 guys, which is what happened. The guy bought them all for $2, and most of them are still there. If they let them go this time, gonna be harder to get shippers.


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## furandhides

I'm not picking on FHA, I just think that the decision to free sell, after NAFA announces that it will free sell and free store on large quantities purchased, and you have an auction and no rat buyers are gonna show at either place, so you sell the rats and **** to speculators for$2. Set the stage for the auction at NAFA. Then a few months later, there worth at least twice that, and people are talking even higher. Some rats get sold off and large numbers never leave the building. Now we get to Jan. Feb. 2017 and nobody wants to pay $7 for the rats that sold in May 2016 for $3-4 nobody wants to pay that in March, and here we are today.


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## DirtySteve

I have a question about castoreum. I sent in a small box from 4 or maybe 5 beavers. It sold yesterday and on summary it said offered 10 and sold 10 for a value of $40 and an average of $4. Is the 10 a number for ounces?


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## furandhides

10 oz. Dirty Steve. Just off a very tough afternoon following the cybercast of the FHA sale. they had some serious transmission problems during the auction, and very difficult to follow and keep refreshing, and jotting down lots and $$. didn't catch the coyote sale. The beaver sucked, otter did poor to fair. BUT ALRIGHT! The rats sold after a year. Congrats to FHA, looks as if they got the job done. Rats sold from one end of the catalog to the other. Looks as if most will be looking at a$3.50-4 ave. after comm.??? Probably take some time to get official results. I didn't watch the mink and **** sale today.


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## DirtySteve

Thanks for the updates. Things have been pretty quiet about FHA sale. Only one or two reports from guys on other sites that I can find so far.


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## furandhides

A day later, it appears that rats sold at about country prices at FHA. Unless something different happens at NAFA either private treaty, or in July, looks as if we will go into next season with prices on most items mirroring this season.


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## DirtySteve

FHA results are posted now. Muskrats sold 91% at a $4.15 avg price . Top lot $8.50. 165K furs offered.


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## furandhides

Thanks DirtySteve, can you post the link?


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## DirtySteve

http://furharvesters.com/results/2017/May/may17us.pdf


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## furandhides

For the **** hunter and trapper in Mi.. 364 **** 201 sold Top of 13.50 ave. $4.38 before comm.. the XL's sold with a few at 3.50 but most in the $2-2.50. That's usually the biggest pile. Hard to justify skin and flesh, dry a bunch of Mi.****.


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## Patrickr

With just my vehicle costs being $0.65 per mile (minimum) to operate those **** prices don't justify trapping any unless somebody is paying me to trap them even on a multiple day check using lethal traps and/or foothold traps on drowning rods/cables.


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## Brian S

furandhides said:


> **** sale over. Nothing changed. I'm afraid that the guys that decided to ship their rats are going to hopefully no sale, or else fire sale like last season. Having a very bad feeling about the rats. Hopefully, I'm wrong. We will see on Friday.


I just looked at the NAFA report and they show 100% clearance on **** with averages from $7.12 for "Michigan ****" to $10.02, $11.62 and $14.82 for CDN, W/NC and W/NC respectively. That seems like quite an improvement.


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## DirtySteve

Brian S said:


> I just looked at the NAFA report and they show 100% clearance on **** with averages from $7.12 for "Michigan ****" to $10.02, $11.62 and $14.82 for CDN, W/NC and W/NC respectively. That seems like quite an improvement.


Wasn't there an asterisk on there that it was fresh goods only in those figures? Beleive they clearanced out a bunch of older ***** as well but those figures weren't included in the averages. The bright side of the auction was not having the leftover goods.


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## Brian S

DirtySteve said:


> Wasn't there an asterisk on there that it was fresh goods only in those figures? Beleive they clearanced out a bunch of older ***** as well but those figures weren't included in the averages. The bright side of the auction was not having the leftover goods.


Yes, it was for fresh but then again, that's all I send is fresh goods.


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## DirtySteve

Brian S said:


> Yes, it was for fresh but then again, that's all I send is fresh goods.


That's all anyone sends is fresh goods usually. The issue is when those fresh goods aren't sold. Like the muskrats that were all withdrawn. 

There were plenty of ***** sold for less money that had been there for awhile. In past yrs all sales were included in the averages. That is all I am pointing out. They are trying to make things look a little rosier than they were by not publishing the actual numbers. I was encouraged that ***** were sold 100% though. That is a step in the right direction. Mink prices were up as well.

If only the muskrats would have sold.


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## Brian S

*Right, but now that the fresh stuff is 100% sold, I'll consider sending them some ***** next fall. Its definitely a step in the right direction.*


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## furandhides

71,000 at FHA a week ago. DirtySteve posted the results. 60% sold ave. $5.04, and I posted my ave. above in post.


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## furandhides

Record number of mink being offered at Kopenhagen the end of next month. They are advertising an all time number of 8.5 million.


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## Patrickr

The NAFA clearances and averages are a very small step in the right direction. And I mean very small. There are still freezers full of **** out in the country from what I am hearing. The averages paid at NAFA and FHA are still below the cost of production unless a trapper has an over population of one specie or another within a couple of miles of their house or they ride a bike to check traps. All of these ranch brown mink being placed on the market will not help the wild mink and muskrat prices one bit unless they all of sudden become extremely valuable and increase dramatically in price. Furandhides had it right when he said that Michigan fur is pretty much dead in the water unless one is being paid good money to trap it.


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## furandhides

Once a skin has been offered, it is no longer considered fresh in the statistics. If you sent 100 **** in Dec., and they don't sell in Jan., when they get reoffered on a subsequent sale, they are not part of the statistics. The auctions have narrowed down their posted ave., as to only represent some of the better goods. Fresh, No, 1's, sundry owners, not including the smaller sizes, third section ,etc.. The ave. as posted are no where near the true ave., especially the games around the **** reports.


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## Brian S

The data may be skewed but its enough to make me get the DPs out again. Most of the stuff I send to NAFA is 2xl or larger and most grade as CDN or NC so my personal average is usually higher than the overall average. Based on that, if the next sale is as good as the last one for fresh goods, I should be looking at averages from $10 -$14. I'll take it.


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## furandhides

Sounds good. Hope it works for you Brian. When I'm trapping, I seem to catch some of all sizes and qualities. And certainly, buying fur, you see it all. For me, this coming season will be same as last. We are not interested in ****, and certainly, no carcass or green. I'll probably end up buying 500 or so, but officially here, it is listed as a discontinued item. Most in the business agree that it takes $15 ave. everything, to make the **** market work, at a minimum.


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## Brian S

Letting the little ones go and waiting until the second week on Nov to set traps can help averages a lot. I know I've accidently released an XL or two thinking they were too small but my biggest trapping cost is my time. Not going to spend my time on it unless its a fatty with good fur.


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## Patrickr

Furandhides, you do a very good analysis of the fur market and how the reports are downright misleading. More producers need to learn to read them as you do. And like you, when I am trapping I catch a diversity of sizes and qualities of all species. At this point my strategy for this year is to wait until after Thanksgiving or the first of December to begin setting for canines. The same for any **** contracts I might get. Or forget the canines and focus on mink after the first week of firearms deer season is over. Trying to hit just the prime time.


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## furandhides

**** a done deal. The trapper turns to rats. With plenty of water, we had good production over the Midwest last season. In light of the huge numbers of ranch mink being offered, it would now appear that we are overproducing rats. We are going into summer with very substantial numbers unsold. Expectations for the market were oversold last season. Trappers who were going to catch a few, took hundreds. and so the story goes on.


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## 9

Patrickr said:


> Furandhides, you do a very good analysis of the fur market and how the reports are downright misleading..


I agree!


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## wicklundrh

Wow, I always find it Ironic that the fur market of yesteryear is no different than todays stock market!

There was a time when many trappers put out lines for the primary animal in their area. Being as not wanting to waste time and distance, they also put other traps out for any "targets of opportunity". Some years, those "opportunity" targets ended up yeilding more money.

Today, many trappers focus on one or two species. It could be because that is what is predominately in their area, what they "love" to trap, or based on the equipment they possess. So, as a **** trapper, you see the gains, yeilds, and losses and say "ok, lets focus on rats", then you see what happens with that and either move on to something else or hang it up for awhile.

For me, I think I will focus on the prime **** on my farm. I hate letting the little buggers go knowing they will destroy the corn but... key word is but... I plant my corn for the deer, turkeys, and other animals in the area, so I guess they all can share. As for the prime ****. I think I will start processing them myself all the way down to tanning (brain tan or other) and utilize the furs at home to make more hats, gloves, and other things. 

I can't simply let them run rampant and get out of control but, I also cannot kill them for nothing either (I guess I have a heart the older I get). So, if they have some "worth" to me, then I can at least justify it. Regardless of if I am getting any money for them or not.


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## furandhides

Read the FHA review of their May sale that was put out a few days ago. Most of the report is taking credit for establishing the $4 rat market. I believe that the $4 rat market was established at the Jays sale prior to Christmas, and continued thru their no sale in Jan. and March. $4 rat the established market for the U.S. since first of the year. LOL


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## furandhides

Sale at Kopenhagen two weeks away. I got on the preliminary sales program, and it appears that there are over 3 million brown mink alone. With dropping oil $$ and world issues rising, it will be interesting to see how the rats sell at NAFA in July. Has anyone on here have rats on account there that are being private treatied??


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## DirtySteve

I sent in 46 rats. They sold 1 small damaged pelt in the auction. Have been watching my account regularly and they haven't sold. I got my check from the auction this week so I am assuming things are done til july. I suppose anything could happen though.


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## 9

DirtySteve said:


> I sent in 46 rats. They sold 1 small damaged pelt in the auction. Have been watching my account regularly and they haven't sold. I got my check from the auction this week so I am assuming things are done til july. I suppose anything could happen though.


Furandhides was talking about private treaty sales that can take place inbetween scheduled sales. I checked my account and there also had been no PT activity concerning my rats. PT sales can be quite common on all "bought back" fur.


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## DirtySteve

Seldom said:


> Furandhides was talking about private treaty sales that can take place inbetween scheduled sales. I checked my account and there also had been no PT activity concerning my rats. PT sales can be quite common on all "bought back" fur.


This was my 4th year trapping and my son sent the furs in for us in the past. He had private treaty sales a couple of times but they were always within 2 weeks or so after the auction and they were on his check when it was finally distributed. I wasn't sure if that was always the case or if they continued to sell at anytime between auctions. I assumed they started working on the catalog for the next sale at somepoint after checks were distributed.


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## 9

DirtySteve said:


> This was my 4th year trapping and my son sent the furs in for us in the past. He had private treaty sales a couple of times but they were always within 2 weeks or so after the auction and they were on his check when it was finally distributed. I wasn't sure if that was always the case or if they continued to sell at anytime between auctions. I assumed they started working on the catalog for the next sale at somepoint after checks were distributed.


Yes, I've sold some furs PT almost within a week of the sale they were offered BUT I've had furs, coyote as an example, sell PT months (6) after the offering sale. Last year was one such example. Actually sold coyotes 4 times last year though they were all offered in the 1st sale.


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## micooner

Just received my fur fish game mag. Fur report says start getting the equipment ready better days are coming this fall. Lol


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## 9

micooner said:


> Just received my fur fish game mag. Fur report says start getting the equipment ready better days are coming this fall. Lol


When translated means-"buy-buy, spend-spend, support your trapping suppliers!" LOL


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## furandhides

I got mine too. Really pushing the **** and rats $$$$. What?? The situation must be getting tough, resorting to FAKENEWS. LOL


micooner said:


> Just received my fur fish game mag. Fur report says start getting the equipment ready better days are coming this fall. Lol


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## furandhides

I see that FHA has just released the May sale results in their auction archive. I went through the rat catalog and there are many unsold. These are the previously offered lots that were unsold from the Jan. and March sales. These are the quantities that aren't included in the 98% sold sundry owners goods. These unsold, the 350,000 at NAFA and many thousands more. For FFG to be touting a $5 and $6 rat ave. is absurd. I know a lot of guys that are wishing that they had sold at $4, rather than waiting on sales to come. Maybe someone can post the link to the May catalog at FHA???


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## wicklundrh

furandhides said:


> I got mine too. Really pushing the **** and rats $$$$. What?? The situation must be getting tough, resorting to FAKENEWS. LOL


Simply amazed sometimes. I guess we can now just blindly print and say whatever we want. Someone will always believe it. I looked at some **** traps the other day. Only because I needed to move them out of the way of my boom sprayer. Maybe I'll store them next to my 1970's sweater vest and valure pants that I'm waiting to come back in style!!


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## Patrickr

Fakenews is right, but I think it is done to support their advertisers of trapping supplies. No advertisers means no magazines. If they, F-F-G and the auction houses, told the actual truth about the state of the fur market and the fur sales results very few would be buying trapping equipment, subscribing to trapping publications, joining trapping associations, etc., etc..


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## furandhides

Time flying by. Kopenhagens monster sale begins tomorrow, immediately followed by another large sale at NAFA. Fur buying season is in full swing. Used to be nothing happened over the summer. "Deals" on comm., financing, etc., are being advertised by both auction houses in the last few days. There are very large numbers to move. And Kopenhagen is already advertising their Sept. sale , huge numbers of commercial grade and lower grade mink that are the rats worst competition. Oil prices went into bear market territory yesterday. Price off 20% in past few weeks, and some talking $30 oil again. Russian sanctions?? Will be an interesting couple weeks.


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## feedinggrounds

Wonder what would sell better a huge lot of 2+ year old frozen **** or the same amount of fresh caught, skinned, stretched and dried? Wondered if both lots went up for sale which would be the best deal for a international buyer. Lots of frozen goods out there, but trappers could load the market with fresh goods. ***** are getting big and plentiful around me.


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## furandhides

When they get back from the tannery, most likely no diff between fresh and five year old. Obviously, the fresh would sell first and probably at a small markup compared to the frozen. Thats not however the problem. They just don't want them unless they can get them for little to nothing compared to the cost of production. Putting a load of fresh goods on the market would more than likely hurt the $$$ than help. Have at it, and best of luck.


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## furandhides

The 10 day sale at Kopenhagen just about wrapped up. Lots of mink in the hands of new owners, selling about 100% at lower $$$, no official conclusions yet. Normally news bulletins on $$ are issued every day or two, and there have been none. NAFA sale starts Wed, July 5. They have changed the order of the sale dramatically. Instead of the rats and **** at the end of the sale, they will be the opening items on July 5. 350,000 + rats, 175,000 ****.


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## furandhides

NAFA just issued a correction on their website. Rats and **** have been moved back to late in the day Saturday, after ranch mink. Some very odd goings on lately. Sale will open up with beaver on Wed.. Now there's a big $$$ item. LOL


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## furandhides

Day 1 at NAFA is history. Sale lasted an hour and a half. Read 'em and weep for anyone with fur on the sale today. It was brutal. The buyers controlled the floor with little interest, unless CHEAP.


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## furandhides

Taking in the actual live cybercast, gives a lot more insight into the sale. You get buyer interest level, and a peek into how sale prices match up to valuations. Yesterday, many of the goods sold at 15-20% below the minimum. What happened in the PT room, from hearsay, was at least as ugly. The auctions have pushed the wild fur sales later in recent years. Used to be things were pretty well wrapped up by April. Now its July and according to NAFA, we're still waiting to establish the rat market??? Yesterdays sale was reminiscent of the old June Graveyard Sales. The halls pretty much empty, the undertakers and vultures circling.


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## furandhides

Been pretty quiet here. I know that there's some big number rat trappers with goods at the sale. Any $$$$ predictions for the " significant interest in rats" sale Sat.??


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## Patrickr

furandhides, any particulars on the sale so far? What transpired with wild mink, red fox, beaver, and otter? NAFA isn't saying anything that I can find and nobody on Trapperman seems to want to get into the particulars and just use terms like "disaster".


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## furandhides

The "auction" pretty much took place in the PT room. Small percentages sold at the "auction". Official results were never summarized at Kopenhagen, after their 10 day sale, unusual to say the least. And I haven't seen any reports from NAFA, and they haven't filled in their catalogs with the PT sales, etc. Obviously, things are not good. People posting their aves., talking about the sale, etc., normally occurs when things went really well, or a certain individual did really well with a selected grouping of skins, cherrypicked. The beaver market is around $10 ave.. I recently sold a group for $17.50, and the very best unsold. Not an ordinary collection, the top 100 out of over 600 skins. Averages posted by people on the sites, are normally exaggerated instances. On the internet, everyones 6 feet tall. Same at the auctions. Almost have to have, "skins in the game", to get a true picture. And I don't have any.


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## Patrickr

WOW, the top 16% of your beaver only averaged $17.50! With about a $10 average on beaver overall. That really sucks! That is way below my cost to produce beaver. At a minimum, my truck cost approximately $0.65 per mile to operate, and that isn't counting my time for driving, trapping, or processing the animals. 

I agree 100% on what you said about what transpires at the auctions and behind the scenes in the PT sales, as well as how people post their averages on the internet. Nobody, or very few, people seem to post their true averages. Not even the auction companies. A sad situation for sure.


----------



## furandhides

You'll rarely hear from the poor bastard that got "sold out" and took a spanking. I just got off the NAFA site, looking for additional info. There is no mention of the wild fur sale Wed.. The posted news is "sale opens with Strong Breeder mink sales" which was yesterday. ????? Gonna be tough going forward with NAFA for many. Certainly much discontent. Anyone want their rats back?


----------



## Patrickr

I have a feeling there will be plenty of producers who wish they had their furs back now. Today will tell us a bunch, provided NAFA ever publishes the complete honest sales and PT results so the producers know what the actual condition of the industry is. I refuse to ship to them or FHA as I prefer more control over my products that I am selling. And depending on the near future (over the next year) price of crude oil, and how things shape up diplomatically with N. Korea and China over the next year will determine if we even have a market at any price. What we really need in addition to higher crude oil prices is for North America and Europe to once again become big fur consumers of jackets, coats, etc., instead of just trim products, and assessories. Unfortunately, the wild fur industry has missed out on that advertising opportunity for too long, and has missed out on changing the mindset of the general public that wild fur production is being done humanely, scientifically, and is environmentally sound.


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## furandhides

Rats and **** are history. I guess it could have been worse on the rats. With all the unsold, it is hard to say what will happen in PT room. LOTS of rats unsold at auction. It was tough. Not too much to even say on the ****. Maybe someone with an account can update us on what happens here shortly in the back room?? Dirty Steve??


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## MasterBaiters

well kids and yes ican say that cuz iam to the best of my knowledge the oldest active fur buyer left in Michigan,ive put my money were my mouth is and since 1971 have been putting my money in the fur industry,ive said it beforeand I will say it again,what goes around comes around,**** have been unsellable and only 2 bucks at times to 120 bucks apiece,rats .50 ea to 15.00 ea. it is always your choice to sell or store,dont let the prices deter you from what you love,life is short and the bounty plentiful!


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## wicklundrh

After the 10th **** crossed in front of me last night on my way back from fishing, I couldn't help but think about putting some steel in the ground. There sure are a ton of them around right now. Not sure what to do with them, but we got a ton of em.


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## Anita Dwink

I plan to trap more ***** this year in specific wetlands to keep them egg suckers from impacting the waterfowl, grouse and other eggs layers in our area than they already do. Not sure what I'll do with the fur. Maybe send to the tannery.


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## Duckman1

What booth were you at? Name of business?? Looked at all of them 3 times do to the small showing this year.


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## MasterBaiters

haven't attended any of the fairs etc in years,as we know everyone,and generally buy suppliesfrom manf.or suppliers of years past,we actually enjoy our free time more than ever.


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## furandhides

We decided to go ahead and advertise that we will be buying **** this season. This is not because there has been any change in the market. For the past several seasons, as all know, we have said no ****. However, I did buy all that were offered dry. Dry or skins this season. NO CARCASS. Disposal cost is over a buck. Be selective in what you skin. Don't bother with this years young, wet sows, stuff that just looks bad, nasty color, etc.. There are ALOT of **** around. Prices are poor, but it is an outlet.


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## Liver and Onions

MasterBaiters said:


> ......... and only 2 bucks at times to 120 bucks apiece,rats .50 ea to 15.00 each.................


Wow. What were the circumstances that a single **** could bring $120 or a rat $15 ?
For anyone: About what years were the best prices and what might an avg. price have been back then for ***** & rats ?
Do I remember correctly that a good **** would bring about $15 in the mid-60's ? In today's money that would be about $45. My memory could be way off since I am only trying to remember conversations.

L & O


----------



## FREEPOP

I remember in the mid to late 70s getting $30-40 for a few good **** (on the carcass).

Up until this last drop in fur prices, I was averaging $10-13 on finished rats.

Edit: I also remember a nasty looking red fox that I got in the late 70s that I got $75 for, on the carcass.

Today you'll be lucky to pay gas with what you make, let alone wear and tear on a vehicle.


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## MasterBaiters

Liver and Onions said:


> Wow. What were the circumstances that a single **** could bring $120 or a rat $15 ?
> For anyone: About what years were the best prices and what might an avg. price have been back then for ***** & rats ?
> Do I remember correctly that a good **** would bring about $15 in the mid-60's ? In today's money that would be about $45. My memory could be way off since I am only trying to remember conversations.
> 
> L & O


demand,currency value,political climate,weather inventories,style all determine value of skins,no two seasons are ever the same,consequently we have endured many suprises over the years,both good and bad,if I was tapping for monetary reasons I would probably take advantage of the reduced trappers in the field and plan on putting my fur up and storing it for a rainy day!


----------



## micooner

Liver and Onions said:


> Wow. What were the circumstances that a single **** could bring $120 or a rat $15 ?
> For anyone: About what years were the best prices and what might an avg. price have been back then for ***** & rats ?
> Do I remember correctly that a good **** would bring about $15 in the mid-60's ? In today's money that would be about $45. My memory could be way off since I am only trying to remember conversations.
> 
> L & O


I've been knocking ***** out of trees since 1968. During the fur boom we took 142 skinned,not put up to a farm in west unity, ohio and the old man wrote a check for $5068. You do the math. Lol As far as 120 i call BS unless on some taxidermy mount. Jmho


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## furandhides

In 1965 a big **** was around 5 bucks. **** were a $2 ave.. I sold at the old Marshall sale in 75 or 76 and big **** were 10-12. I still have the receipt for a large batch of **** I sold in the early 80s. The 1 &2 ave. $44 with a 70 top. The third section ave. 18. Sold a batch of green ****, first week of Oct. for a five.


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## MasterBaiters

micooner said:


> I've been knocking ***** out of trees since 1968. During the fur boom we took 142 skinned,not put up to a farm in west unity, ohio and the old man wrote a check for $5068. You do the math. Lol As far as 120 i call BS unless on some taxidermy mount. Jmho


well like it or not we sold more than one **** that year and many 5x A color for 120,we sold to 27 different Italian customers that no longer exist today and just when you thought you had it figured out?


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## micooner

MasterBaiters said:


> well like it or not we sold more than one **** that year and many 5x A color for 120,we sold to 27 different Italian customers that no longer exist today and just when you thought you had it figured out?


----------



## micooner

And i thought i treed and killed all the 5x **** that year.


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## Patrickr

I've seen the good years and the bad years since the '68-'69 season. I just wish fur prices could keep up with the cost of living. The price for the finished garment never stays the same, it always goes up. Only the fur producer takes it in the shorts. This year we might be looking at 2017 costs with late '60's fur prices. I don't know how much more I can sharpen my pencil to make it all figure out for a profit. Time will tell the story.

Roger, keep us updated on the upcoming sales.


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## DFJISH

Very, very few of those of us who trap make a profit a it, yet we continue to trap every season. The reason why almost all of us trap is mainly for the feelings of adventure, the excitement, and the challenge of catching furbearers. Those values persist every year regardless of what the fur market trends are. I'd probably feel disappointment if I did the calculations to see how much I lost last season, but I had a great time on my trapline so I figure I won....again. I'm already looking forward to another trapping season and the status of the fur market has nothing to do with that either. I was trapping back in the fur boom days and a fat fur check was icing on the cake. The cake is there every year.


----------



## MasterBaiters

Patrickr said:


> I've seen the good years and the bad years since the '68-'69 season. I just wish fur prices could keep up with the cost of living. The price for the finished garment never stays the same, it always goes up. Only the fur producer takes it in the shorts. This year we might be looking at 2017 costs with late '60's fur prices. I don't know how much more I can sharpen my pencil to make it all figure out for a profit. Time will tell the story.
> 
> Roger, keep us updated on the upcoming sales.


this isn't roger but his nemises,lol,if you can figure out how to make trapping profitable financially you are a genius,its a tough proposition,things are so out of whack,60k trucks and 2 dollar rats,whats a man to do?


----------



## MasterBaiters

DFJISH said:


> Very, very few of those of us who trap make a profit a it, yet we continue to trap every season. The reason why almost all of us trap is mainly for the feelings of adventure, the excitement, and the challenge of catching furbearers. Those values persist every year regardless of what the fur market trends are. I'd probably feel disappointment if I did the calculations to see how much I lost last season, but I had a great time on my trapline so I figure I won....again. I'm already looking forward to another trapping season and the status of the fur market has nothing to do with that either. I was trapping back in the fur boom days and a fat fur check was icing on the cake. The cake is there every year.


Glad you like sweets!


----------



## DirtySteve

Liver and Onions said:


> Wow. What were the circumstances that a single **** could bring $120 or a rat $15 ?
> For anyone: About what years were the best prices and what might an avg. price have been back then for ***** & rats ?
> Do I remember correctly that a good **** would bring about $15 in the mid-60's ? In today's money that would be about $45. My memory could be way off since I am only trying to remember conversations.
> 
> L & O


My son's and I started trapping in 2013. Here is a snapshot of Nafa feb auction results showing muskrat prices. They averaged $11.51 that auction. We got $18 for one of our rats. The same auction ***** from our area averaged $25.


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## Patrickr

DFJISH, based on your post then, would you trap and enjoy it just as much if you were unable to sell your catch if there was no market or access to it? The definition of "recreational" trapping according to the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation is just that. You would have to trap for self consumption, like hunting and fishing, or to protect your property and livestock. No selling of your catch. As an experiment, for the past few years I trapped as hard as I could and gave all my furs away after finishing them. It definitely curtailed my trapping efforts time wise, and it wasn't nearly as much fun as when I knew there would be a pay check at the end of the tunnel. 

MasterBaiters, trapping can still be done profitably. It begins with knowing what your true costs to produce/operate really is, and then conducting your trapping activities in a business like manner. Actually conducting your trapping activities in a business like manner will make every trapper who tries it a much better trapper if they do it correctly. After knowing what your production/operating costs are it boils down to good time management, line management, utilizing the entire animal caught for its greatest value, and great marketing skills of your finished product(s). What we have working against us in Michigan is a mandatory trap check for all non-lethal traps and sets, especially for our coyotes, fox, *****, etc.; no, snares on private lands (I am not talking about the useless cable restraints we have now); and no dry land snaring for beaver, etc., etc.. The daily trap check in the lower peninsula is a financial killer for most trappers in these low fur price years. But, even with all the restrictions that have been imposed upon us, it is possible to trap profitably. It's getting darn difficult to do but it can still be done. I know many who are doing it.


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## furandhides

Looks terrible when you take out the comm. That was cheap. NAFA should have sold those in July. They would have brought more $$$. Our prices were considerably higher than that last season. So were the rat $$$ at the MTPCA sales.


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## DirtySteve

furandhides said:


> Looks terrible when you take out the comm. That was cheap. NAFA should have sold those in July. They would have brought more $$$. Our prices were considerably higher than that last season. So were the rat $$$ at the MTPCA sales.


Yeah I know. I only said it wasnt so bad because I was expecting worse. I am hoping to catch up with you at some point to sell some furs. We don't start trapping usually until mid Dec. Most of my local areas I have to wait til christmas because land owners hunt the late muzzleloading season. The last couple years my son had basketball games the days you were coming downstate. Just never seemed to be able to work out an auction weekend either. Hoping This year will be different.


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## furandhides

I really think that after several disasters for the rat men, with NAFA, that more will be thinking of other options. Things have changed in the business.


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## furandhides

At this time last year, the auctions houses were telling the trapper that they would have to wait until Spring or Summer to find out what the $$$$ of rats would be. ?????? NAFA went so far as to not offer rats until the late sales, saying that there was no market, and it would develop later. ??????? At least this season, we know what the price is. They just wrote your checks. This whole charade thats been going on for a year, has finally come to an end. LOL


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## furandhides

As we enter Dec., the fur market remains dull. There is little interest. Don't believe that I've ever witnessed such a pervasive lack of excitement and demand.


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## goose schatt

Was he out of munith?


furandhides said:


> I'd heard second hand that the boys were going to continue to buy some deer and beefhides, but were out of the fur end. If anyone should go into the Mi. Furbuyers Hall of Fame, ought to be Willy. He was a real character. Hadn't seen him in a number of years. Maybe 4 years ago, when it looked like fur was hot again, he showed up at the convention in Evart. Someone grabbed me from behind in a bear hug, it was Willy. He was a great guy. We had some fun times together at the HBC sales in Toronto, been a few years ago.


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## LG1

Yes he was


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## goose schatt

He was a really nice guy...I enjoyed bullshitting with him


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## furandhides

We will see what the state buyers do tomorrow at the MTPCA annual fur sale at Jays in Clare. Looks like another road trip.


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## furandhides

Sale started at 9:30, looked as if it was gonna be just a handful. More appeared. Took lunch at Noon. We pulled out of the lot at 2:00. Gary Schuman sold 900 rats, another guy had 500. I'm sure that someone will post the numbers offered and ave. Prices were strong, IMO. Top rats $6.25.


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## Anita Dwink

I was glad to see the more fur show up after I sold. I thought the prices were better than last year. Not doing cartwheels but did average $3.80 on my 94 rats. Interested in the report as well. Good to see you and your better half Roger. Will hope to have more fur ready for a later St Charles stop. Nice number of buyers there too.


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## FREEPOP

Mark posted it on the MTPCA site


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## furandhides

FREEPOP said:


> Mark posted it on the MTPCA site


 It's not posted on the MTPCA site, but the results are up on Facebook MTPCA.,should be posted to the official website. There are a few major mistakes in the report, the mink aves. and numbers are no where near correct. there were only about 40 mink on the sale total. The males brought 10-14 and the females 6-7


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## FREEPOP

furandhides said:


> It's not posted on the MTPCA site, but the results are up on Facebook MTPCA.,should be posted to the official website. There are a few major mistakes in the report, the mink aves. and numbers are no where near correct. there were only about 40 mink on the sale total. The males brought 10-14 and the females 6-7


Correct
Mark explained that sales slips only said "mink"


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## ForestvilleJack

Freepop
I do not have Facebook could you post the results from the fur sale to this site.


FREEPOP said:


> Mark posted it on the MTPCA site


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## DFJISH

I requested to join the FB MTPCA site and haven't heard anything back. Does anyone regularly monitor that site to let new members join?


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## FREEPOP




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## FREEPOP

DFJISH said:


> I requested to join the FB MTPCA site and haven't heard anything back. Does anyone regularly monitor that site to let new members join?


I believe Mark and Al keep an eye on it. Shouldn't be too long.


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## ForestvilleJack

Thanks Freepop


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## furandhides

For anyone interested, The SAGA Dec. fox sale in Helsinki begins tomorrow. Inspection began Sat.. I believe about 1/2 million ranch fox and Finn raccoon to be offered.


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## magnumhntr

Noticed that Groeny is advertising he's increasing his price on rats ~ any thoughts on that move Roger?

-Chris


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## furandhides

My thoughts are that he starts his route today in Mi.., and wants to drum up some business. Nothing extraordinary about that. I see a thread about that on T-Man, but no one posting higher aves. and ranting about the prices being up to any large extent. You can also raise prices, grade the heck out of the rats, and end up with about the same ave.. Cherry pickers and jugglers. Remember, whats posted on a site is just what someone says or wants you to hear. I called a guy yesterday that had posted info on the sale at Jays. Neither of his statements were true, he was really a nice guy, and admitted that he was posting on hearsay, what someone else had told him. OK. Some posts are outright lies, others partial truths. We all know what NAFA sold rats for 2 months ago. It wasn't much. What is creating a new rise in $$$????? all of a sudden. Last year $$$ went up only to fall later when the reality of the market set in. 65,000 rats are to be offered on Jan. 9 at FHA auction. Not a whole lot for their sale, but this will certainly set the stage for an up, down, or no change in $$$ on rats. This is why I scheduled the next stop in St. Charles for Jan. 13, after the sale. Fresh info on a look into the rat market will be there. Just a few weeks away.


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## Anita Dwink

furandhides said:


> My thoughts are that he starts his route today in Mi.., and wants to drum up some business. Nothing extraordinary about that. I see a thread about that on T-Man, but no one posting higher aves. and ranting about the prices being up to any large extent. You can also raise prices, grade the heck out of the rats, and end up with about the same ave.. Cherry pickers and jugglers. Remember, whats posted on a site is just what someone says or wants you to hear. I called a guy yesterday that had posted info on the sale at Jays. Neither of his statements were true, he was really a nice guy, and admitted that he was posting on hearsay, what someone else had told him. OK. Some posts are outright lies, others partial truths. We all know what NAFA sold rats for 2 months ago. It wasn't much. What is creating a new rise in $$$????? all of a sudden. Last year $$$ went up only to fall later when the reality of the market set in. 65,000 rats are to be offered on Jan. 9 at FHA auction. Not a whole lot for their sale, but this will certainly set the stage for an up, down, or no change in $$$ on rats. This is why I scheduled the next stop in St. Charles for Jan. 13, after the sale. Fresh info on a look into the rat market will be there. Just a few weeks away.


I've had to correct more than one person on the results. The posted averages as read were later explained but people see what they want to see. After I explained that I was nearby on specific sales there was a little backtracking . Groeney does ok and its good to have options. They grade their way and pay a bit higher on the top end but very few get that top size on my past experiences. I'm glad we have choices Local Auction,Groeney, Country Buyers,NAFA,FHA. All have their place , too bad we can't have this many when picking health care.


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## furandhides

FHA sale was yesterday. There was no live broadcast and what info I do have is limited and some secondhand. What I do know is that the preliminary rat estimate was 65,000. A week ago, I spoke with one of their reps and was told that the sale would probably be downsized to 45,000 for the offering, due to less than anticipated receipts. Week later, the catalog lists 110,000 rats for sale. I'm not seeing much chatter online, so I believe that the rat sale was not good. Early season Fall Lg. size sold at $2.50, the XL were unsold.


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## Cork Dust

Did anyone see the beaver that were sold? Size and condition? Interesting to see beaver castor going for far more fur.


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## furandhides

The dark colored Blankets and XL Heavy selects at $30-$40. Prices went South in a hurry, the best Med. at $7, LM at 9, etc.. beaver $$$ just plain in the tank. Castor is strong, don't know what it brought at the sale. Should be some company statement later today.


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## Cork Dust

furandhides said:


> The dark colored Blankets and XL Heavy selects at $30-$40. Prices went South in a hurry, the best Med. at $7, LM at 9, etc.. beaver $$$ just plain in the tank. Castor is strong, don't know what it brought at the sale. Should be some company statement later today.


That's a lot of work for very little money...!


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## furandhides

Yeah. About the only guys messing with beaver are those with a passion for it and don't mind working at a loss. The guys doing ADC work are pretty much the only active beaver guys that I know. $$ of hide is an extra.


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## furandhides

No official report from FHA yet, however, safe to assume that other than the taxidermy and specialty items, the sale was not good. With 110,000 rats showing little to no interest, and what did sell at mediocre $$. The fox and mink were really CHEAP. IMO probably should have not held the sale. The results will undermine $$ at the many assoc. sales that are coming up around the country. NO GOOD NEWS.


----------



## Cork Dust

furandhides said:


> No official report from FHA yet, however, safe to assume that other than the taxidermy and specialty items, the sale was not good. With 110,000 rats showing little to no interest, and what did sell at mediocre $$. The fox and mink were really CHEAP. IMO probably should have not held the sale. The results will undermine $$ at the many assoc. sales that are coming up around the country. NO GOOD NEWS.


Thank you for your diligence and follow through on this!


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## furandhides

Unusual that FHA has not posted remarks on a sale that was over in a few hours. The only reason that I can see, is the fact that they are midway through the collection for Helsinki. With receipts that are remarkably low, I'm sure that they are not wanting to scare off any potential shippers for the immediate future. Every day now counts. I am, and have been, concerned about what the near future holds for them. I see some problems there.


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## furandhides

Gave the OSTA Fur sale results on my St. Charles post. Penn State Trappers Sale results 33 lots 6 buyers Rats ave. 2.86 M.Mink 7.59 F 4.63 This is our type fur. Obviously confidence has eroded in the market following the FHA sale. Ohio and PA. I believe the Iowa sale and some other yesterday also. Two significant sales with below $3 ave. on rats?????


----------



## 9

I’m watching oil $$ for an up-tic in fur $$. I very much believe when oil hits $70/brl we’ll see Russia start buying fur. Strictly a personal opinion!


----------



## FREEPOP




----------



## DirtySteve

Seldom said:


> I’m watching oil $$ for an up-tic in fur $$. I very much believe when oil hits $70/brl we’ll see Russia start buying fur. Strictly a personal opinion!


I have been watching the same thing seldom. I also have watched the ruble. It is slightly stronger than a year ago but still pretty poor. The ruble hasn't gained as much as it seems it should have. I agree that oil will eventually be the key for russia.


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## furandhides

Next sale is NAFA at end of Feb.. We know how they private treatied the rats a few months ago, at $$$ that were lower than anticipated. What will they do next? They will set the tone and whatever happens there will determine the rat $$ at FHA a few days later in Helsinki. Return of the $2 rat? or something else?


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## Fool'em

Thanks for the results FREEPOP

Are those **** prices really over $10. Seems like they are slowly moving the right direction. 

Rats- I wish I had enough to justify a trip to see furandhides


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## FREEPOP

Fool'em said:


> Thanks for the results FREEPOP
> 
> Are those **** prices really over $10. Seems like they are slowly moving the right direction.
> 
> Rats- I wish I had enough to justify a trip to see furandhides


I wonder if those are cherry picked **** or what the heck they are?


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## furandhides

FAKE NEWS 1/3 of the best **** from the best sections ave. $12 before comm.. Only the biggest or select color. If Freepop and Foolem were to each catch 100 ****, scrape dry and ship= Hope for a 5-10 ave. with 75% unsold. Thats why Roger does not do ****. Tried a few green again this season, and quickly got back into my right mind.


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## wicklundrh

That was wishful thinking wasn't it!


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## Fool'em

Classic case of- if it seems too good to be true it probably is. 

Selling rats to furandhides is where the money is at again this year.


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## furandhides

The completed Jan. sale catalog is now available in the catalog archive section on the FHA website. It would benefit all trappers to go through the catalog, and freshen the memory on present fur market condition, prices and interest on the various articles.


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## furandhides

End of Jan.. Many seasons will close in a few days throughout the country. Without a doubt, the bulk of the fur that will be harvested during the 2017-18 season is over. The volume of fur probably markedly less than last season. The low volume of skins appearing to have no effect on $$. Rats at FHA sale a few weeks ago, FRESH goods L I&II @2.50, L II's @ 2.50, L Good Slts. @ 2.75, L Slt. Dgd. @2.40, Med. I&II 1.50, Med. II'[email protected] The outlook going forward has changed from a mood of slight optimism, to a more negative view. It is becoming increasingly apparent to many market watchers, that the upcoming sales at NAFA and FHA around first of March, will not meet the expectations of the shippers.


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## furandhides

Kopenhagen begins their Feb. sale this weekend. 3,432,077 mink along with a variety of other skins


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## 574mag

Very interested to see how it shakes out.


----------



## furandhides

Everyone with skins in the game will be watching intently. For a quicker look at whats happening here, the NYSTA holds their biggest sale of the season in Herkimer, N.Y. tomorrow Feb.3. Should give a snapshot of the present market attitude.


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## 574mag

I, for one will watch for that. Thx for the info


----------



## K-zoo

This was posted on T-man from a guy named walleyed who sold at the Herkimer, NY auction today. ~ ~

Sold All My Rats At The Herkimer Auction Today.

There Were A Total Of 109 Lots of Muskrat Sold Today Including Mine As Follows:

2 Small Rats @ .25Cents Each Minus 8% Commission = Net: .46 Cents.

14 Medium Rats @ $1.30 Each Minus 8% Commission = Net: $16.74.

6 1XL Slights @ $2.85 Each Minus 8% Commission = Net: $15.73.

11 2XL Slights @ $3.80 Each Minus 8% Commision = Net: $38.46.

48 Large Rats @ $3.80 Each Minus 8% Commission = Net: $167.81.

84 1XL Rats @ $4.95 Each Minus 8% Commission = Net: $382.54.

50 2XL Rats @ $5.75 Each Minus 8% Commission = Net: $264.45.

Total Net Was $886.19 for 215 Rats With A $4.10 Average.

My Rats Were All I-II Falls Caught Between October 25th and December 3rd.

I Stayed For The Whole Auction and Watched All The Rats Sell

And I Saw A Low Hammer Price Of .10CENTS and A High Of $6.40.

There Were A Total Of Ten Buyers Two Of Whom I Did Not Know.


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## 574mag

Good info. Thx.


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## furandhides

I saw that. Looked like a barn burner of a sale. Can't wait for the sale breakdown, to see how many & ave.. I got on the NY site and the moderator said about a $4 ave., he figured on the rats overall. I believe Clare was 4.30??


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## furandhides

There were 10 buyers at the NYSTA sale. There were under 1000 rats on the sale. Thats not enough to draw any kind of conclusion from. More than likely a few guys fighting and overpaying in order to buy a handful of rats. The million brown mink that go on sale this week, will tell the new market story. By Friday, it will be history. After Kopenhagen, the handwriting will be on the wall for rat $$$ at NAFA and FHA at end of month. Sale at Bares this Sat. and MTPCA sale in Kzoo next week.


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## furandhides

OK. Increased attendance at Kopenhagen. Prices were slightly advanced, mainly due to the 10% decrease in US $$. Didn't translate into anything particularly promising. The market remains stagnant. Turning out to be no new news. Lots of trappers sales. The big Western coyote sales with thousands of skins=a weaker coyote and cat market. Same old, same old on the Eastern sales. Next big sale MTPCA sale in Kzoo, I'll be there.


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## furandhides

Big sale in KZOO yesterday. About 45 lots and 10 buyers. Lots of fur, all species..


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## furandhides

Sale results up on facebook. 3563 rats ave. $3.94. Rat $$ were easier than the Dec.sale.


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## FREEPOP




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## Fool'em

Thanks for the update Freepop and Furandhides. 
Looks like some decent highs and averages. Wish I could have made it.


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## furandhides

Rats at New York sale av. $3.81, Idaho sale $2.73 NAFA in Toronto on Monday


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## 574mag

Is that about what you expected?


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## furandhides

Those $$ about ave. now. market definitely softer. State auction, your gonna pay at least ,25 over market. If not, you go home empty.


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## 574mag

Thx, just curious. As to what your thoughts were as a buyer.


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## furandhides

NAFA sale is history. Rat trappers that shipped="Read 'em and Weep"".


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## James Dymond

furandhides said:


> NAFA sale is history. Rat trappers that shipped="Read 'em and Weep"".


Not quite yet, some people have coyotes to be sold today!
Jim


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## furandhides

Good luck on those dogs Jim. Let us know how they do. Hopefully they perform better than the rest of the stuff did. Figured that you had sold those to Groney. LOL The larger fully prime M. Mink did better than expected. Must have been 2 guys that had small orders. After the first dozen or so lots, prices went South in a hurry though. Wish that the wild mink market would firm up. I've got 500 for sale. Good luck on that,eh? LOL


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## furandhides

Top quality brown Female ranch mink selling for a $20 bill. Not good.


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## FREEPOP

Ouch


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## 574mag

Ouch indeed! So much for good news on the horizon!


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## Fool'em

I'm pretty sure production cost is higher than that.
Any fur selling below production cost is not what we need at this point.


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## 9

Peaks and valleys folks, peaks and valleys.


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## Fool'em

Looks like coyotes are moving in the right direction. Especially westerns.


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## James Dymond

Fool'em said:


> Looks like coyotes are moving in the right direction. Especially westerns.


Wish I could grade fur! I had a $1 and a $3 coyote.
Some better ones too.
88
43 three of these
71
61
30
26
22
21
They still get their comm. out of that.
Jim 36.46 average Something to do in my old age called hobby trapping.


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## furandhides

I'd say you did great. Haven't seen a coyote ave. like that in years. keep after them.


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## Fool'em

Good Job James! Glad you did well on your fur.


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## furandhides

OK. Been awhile. Been busy here, and throughout the country. The half dozen or so big cat and coyote sales in the Western states are history, as are most of the other state assoc. sales from Kansas to the East coast. The NAFA and FHA Helsinki sales, history. Good coyotes excelled, as well as the best cats. Secondary cats are suffering and marten and fisher $$ weaker. Otter struggle at low levels and clearance, and beaver continue at hatter $$. Some interest in the biggest ****, no interest in XL down, market fair-poor for our type. The best, big prime wild mink showing a spark of interest, however, price falls off rapidly. females very tough. RATS The market was, and is, in the country, as I had predicted early. NAFA had a poor rat sale, with FHA a little better. I just finished going over the rat catalogs at both NAFA and FHA. My $$ and those achieved at the state sales, significantly higher. Next big gig is the final MTPCA Fur Sale at Jays in Clare on the 24th. See you there.


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## 574mag

Good info. Hope next year prices are better, but in all reality, it won't affect what I do. I'm addicted! Lol


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## furandhides

Brown males were the first offering at Kopenhagen yesterday. Was the first day of an offering of 7 million mink. Brown females were today. The site has an open live auction stream and pricing, but is hard to interpret, as pricing is in Dutch Kroners. I have not seen a comparison chart, however, it appears that brown mink $$ are lower, and this is obviously not good news for the rat and wild mink market going forward. I personally, look for lower rat $$ at the May sales at NAFA and FHA. Timing is becoming the most important aspect of selling recently. The sales of the auctions don't necessarily correspond with the need of the customers. Lower $$ are the result. If forced to buy product at inconvenient time=price lower. someone has to holdthe goods until they are actually needed. Cost $$.


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## furandhides

Kopenhagen has issued a synopsis of the first 4 days of the 7 day sale. 500 buyers were described as cautious, due to the large stockpiles of skins from prior sales. The over abundance of product is catching up, and overall $$ are off about 5%.


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## furandhides

This trade tariff war with China offers no positive news for fur. Try to be non political, but this is not good news for anyone in my business. Got to look out for ones self, and I'm getting increasingly disturbed.


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## 574mag

It's all posturing at this point. They will come to an agreement. We need each other to badly. In listening to various "experts" they all agree on one thing. It's all bluster. That being said, I agree on haveing to look after one's self and interests!! I sincerely hope they're right. A crippled economy helps no one


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## furandhides

Inspection begins today for the May sale at Kopenhagen. Nearly 7 million mink and various other fur and skins will be offered at the 8 day sale concluding May 9. As always, all will be watching the sale deviation, especially for us, on the brown mink. The last of the state assoc. sales are history and the bulk of the harvest has been sold or shipped. The season, so far, has pretty much been one of continuing difficulty in the trade. Despite the upward climb in oil $$, from the upper 30's to upper 60's, has not had a positive effect, with prices at stable lows or falling. The supposed correlation absent. Seems as if all revolves around ranch mink $$.


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## wicklundrh

I don't know why I am a glutin for punishment. I know I see the new report and Roger's name attached to it and in my mind I know it will not be the news I want to hear. But, you have that small feeling that it "could" get better. So you go ahead and take a look. Maybe it is the dose of reality that I truly need on a daily basis. Maybe it is the fact that I must somehow subconsciously enjoy being kicked in the nuts! Either way, I'm back to reality.

Thanks for all the information you provide Roger. Good or bad you tell it like it is and many of us appreciate it. You have really helped me understand the market and what it means from a purchasers perspective.


----------



## Liver and Onions

gunfun13 said:


> ........
> Is there anything that can be done with those summer *****? Hate to waste them.


These will not let the dead ***** to be wasted:

https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide...uRfqQP2eHAti22SCnBjH2LMmqzx-z8SRoCObcQAvD_BwE

L & O


----------



## FREEPOP

I've seen many a hawk eating on ****, especially in winter.


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## furandhides

The sale in Kopenhagen is over tomorrow. The 7 million skins have seen only a 61% clearance. Inspection begins for the NAFA May sale in Toronto in a few days. Another 5 million mink will be thrown on the market, including another 1 million brown mink. World awash in mink skins.


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## 9

My uncle fed a flock of 28 turkey buzzards all through last summer on **** carcasses.


----------



## General Ottsc

FREEPOP said:


> Convention in Evart August 17 & 18, good prices can be had


Which convention would be better to go to? I was planning on going to the one in the U.P., but if the one in Evart will offer better prices and seminars, then I'd rather go there. It's also much closer for me. 

Unfortunately with my work schedule, I don't think I can swing both.


----------



## BigJoe.

The NTA in Escanaba will be bigger with more vendors. BUT, the one in Evart is a very good one. With some of the best trappers in the state giving demo's and mountains and mountains of free advice, you just can't beat it.


----------



## Patrickr

Michigan has always had great conventions for their trappers, and when the national convention is held here it is always a super show with a huge turnout; good fur market or bad. What I really like is that the Michigan Trapper & Predator Callers convention has been at the same location for several years straight and they have kept the date in August. 

Freepop, loved that line,"Take one out and five will show up for the funeral." Killing a summer **** is not really wasting a resource. Everything has to eat; even the worms.

Roger, thanks for the updates. Good thing I have other plans for my winter 'rats, mink and **** than the traditional fur market.


----------



## General Ottsc

BigJoe. said:


> The NTA in Escanaba will be bigger with more vendors. BUT, the one in Evart is a very good one. With some of the best trappers in the state giving demo's and mountains and mountains of free advice, you just can't beat it.


That's what I need is demos and advice, especially with regards to fur handling. Thanks for the insight!


----------



## FREEPOP

General Ottsc said:


> That's what I need is demos and advice, especially with regards to fur handling. Thanks for the insight!


Greg from FHA (formerly of NAFA) is usually there giving demos all day of fur put up. Top notch information there.

As Joe said Escanaba will be much bigger, more variety and most likely some slightly better prices. Plus it's in da UP eh!


----------



## General Ottsc

FREEPOP said:


> Greg from FHA (formerly of NAFA) is usually there giving demos all day of fur put up. Top notch information there.
> 
> As Joe said Escanaba will be much bigger, more variety and most likely some slightly better prices. Plus it's in da UP eh!


Very true. After spending a week in Munising last year, I've been itching to get back up to the U.P. I am planning on a camping trip to Copper Harbor in September, which should be awesome.


----------



## furandhides

Been another long season here. Just hauled the last of 3 loads into the freezer plant. If it wasn't for having a state of the art, food grade, humidity controlled facility a few miles down the road, we wouldn't be in business. Maybe the luckiest fur dealer in the country. Most guys are forced to sell every season. That's why no one 's left. Bought a lot of fur this year. Our volume was way up. Was out to be No.1 , and I believe we did it. Thanks guys. Fur buyers never retire, they just die, and then they're gone. Looking forward to next season. Glad this ones over. Was actually still scraping and putting up ****, a few days ago. Hunting mushrooms starting tomorrow, rain or shine, just like the skin trade.


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## furandhides

Posted on Kopenhagens website. Auction and private treaty sales conclude with a 77% clearance and prices off 5% from the March sale.


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## furandhides

Day 2 at NAFA. Yesterdays sale began with the Timberwolf and ended with oppossum. All the "oddball stuff". I went through the wolf catalog and I felt that they were not especially good. The wolverine were very strong. The rest of the stuff was off. Today was the big brown mink sale. Close to million offered. Official report males 60% sold at easier prices than Kopenhagen. Females fared better selling 82% at firm prices. There was no good news here. Some brought a $10 bill. Ranch Foxes were poor. Glad that I didn't own any wild red fox. Looked like a disaster, with the greys a close second.


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## furandhides

COYOTES: Looked like a barn burner today. The dawgs were HOT. The one bright spot in the sale, so far, for Mi. trappers. I'm not a coyote guy, but $$ seemed VERY strong. Anyone with results, feel free to share.


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## furandhides

Big day today. ***** and beaver. Important animals to Mi. trappers. See how it goes. I believe that beaver will continue at historical lows. The ****, you wonder where they keep coming from. Some of this stuff has probably seen the auction block several times. Keeps getting shuffled in and out of the cooler. Held by someone still hoping for a miracle, or waiting to perhaps make a dime on someones misfortune. Good luck there. Several weeks ago, NAFA issued a press release concerning recent PT sales of **** to China, following workshops there. For our type ****, an $18 basis on 3X-4X Selects. Little to brag about there. LOL


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## Patrickr

Coyote averages are still below the costs of production for the majority of MI coyote producers. No bright spot there. But even with these sales results will this market hold through next season? This past season we were blessed that the guys who produce the heavies that are in demand from MT, ND, and up into Canada, were buried in snow beginning in the early part of harvest season. IF this market holds and they have an open dry fall and early winter they will out produce what the market needs.


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## furandhides

The **** sale was absolutely horrible. I don't believe that anyone thought that it would be that bad. Taking a break. Beaver next. Hang on for tomorrow= mink, rats, and otter. I'm afraid that I can see it coming.


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## klinkler

Roger,thanks for the updates as grim as they are.


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## Patrickr

Roger, no matter how grim I appreciate your assessment of the situation. I am not holding my breath on today's mink, rats and otter sale. Too many ranch brown mink on the market.


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## furandhides

Never wanted, nor do I like, doing the work of the Grim Reaper. Always hoping for good news, however, here we go again. The $$ on the important water animals, have lost ground since last season. Slightly over 299,000 muskrats sold 78% at a reported $3.51 ave. 48 rats were in the top lot, which brought $12.25 ea.. 2096 rats were in the next lots @ $7. 1625 next brought $5. Prices then dropped to $4.50 and down to .50. Appears that the real ave. is probably about $3. I took the time to listen to the wild fur portion of the sale yesterday, in order to get a better feel of the auction floor. The rat sale was unusual, to say the least. Actually weird. Most of the sale seemed to revolve around the action of one Chinese woman, with people fooling with her around the edges. She was making some mistakes, and there was some taking advantage of her vulnerability. If it wasn't for her, $$ would have been lower, and may not have sold at all. Doesn't appear to be a firm footing for any market. About what was expected. Otter had much interest, but pretty much in the $25 range. Anything more neglected. Beaver remain at hatter levels, other than a handful at better $$. Only 40% of the wild mink sold. The $14.16 ave. reflecting the best of the males, with the bulk of the goods unsold. Females were 100% unsold in the Central section. True ave. maybe $8-9, with all goods sold. So there you go. Prices on all items will be cheaper next season. So much for recovery.


----------



## otterc

furandhides said:


> Never wanted, nor do I like, doing the work of the Grim Reaper. Always hoping for good news, however, here we go again. The $$ on the important water animals, have lost ground since last season. Slightly over 299,000 muskrats sold 78% at a reported $3.51 ave. 48 rats were in the top lot, which brought $12.25 ea.. 2096 rats were in the next lots @ $7. 1625 next brought $5. Prices then dropped to $4.50 and down to .50. Appears that the real ave. is probably about $3. I took the time to listen to the wild fur portion of the sale yesterday, in order to get a better feel of the auction floor. The rat sale was unusual, to say the least. Actually weird. Most of the sale seemed to revolve around the action of one Chinese woman, with people fooling with her around the edges. She was making some mistakes, and there was some taking advantage of her vulnerability. If it wasn't for her, $$ would have been lower, and may not have sold at all. Doesn't appear to be a firm footing for any market. About what was expected. Otter had much interest, but pretty much in the $25 range. Anything more neglected. Beaver remain at hatter levels, other than a handful at better $$. Only 40% of the wild mink sold. The $14.16 ave. reflecting the best of the males, with the bulk of the goods unsold. Females were 100% unsold in the Central section. True ave. maybe $8-9, with all goods sold. So there you go. Prices on all items will be cheaper next season. So much for recovery.


Trapping is still the best hobby in the world where, if done wisely, you can still make a few bucks or at least break even. Having trapped for 40 years and not missing one year, I have learned that when prices are higher you trap hard during vacation and weekends. When prices are down you simply run the line on the way to work. There is nothing like that smell of fur drying in the fur shed. Hopefully, I will be able to do it until I can no longer get around.


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## Patrickr

Roger, thanks for your honest appraisal of the auction and our current market condition. I agree wholeheartedly with what you have written.

I have a quick question for you; Do you remember the sizes of the muskrats in those top three lots you price quoted?


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## Patrickr

Otterc, I also agree with your sentiments about trapping. As commercial endeavors go, trapping can be the best hobby or profession in the world depending on how an individual chooses to operate. If conducted in a business manner it can prove to be both financially rewarding/profitable as well as physically and mentally enriching - even in a down market. 

I disagree with your statement about trapping harder on vacation and weekends when prices are higher and when prices are lower you just run them on your way to work or home. A highly motivated trapper traps harder every year regardless of the prices. And the motivated trapper also works smarter in addition to harder. A smart trapper would figure out how to maximize his vacation time while trapping so it lengthens his available days of trapping. Plus he or she would sharpen their pencil and figure ways in which to reduce their operating costs and fixed overhead so it is easier to increase your profit potential. This stuff is so easy a kindergartner could do it and varies from trapper to trapper. One last thought; A lot of money is either lost or made in the fur shed and in how you market your furs.


----------



## furandhides

Patrickr said:


> Roger, thanks for your honest appraisal of the auction and our current market condition. I agree wholeheartedly with what you have written.
> 
> I have a quick question for you; Do you remember the sizes of the muskrats in those top three lots you price quoted?


Those were the first 4 lots in the sale. XX-XXXL


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## furandhides

Almost forgot about the FHA sale in North Bay next week. I believe that the die has been cast. Going second usually only works well in a high demand arena. We're not seeing that for sure. For anyone with rats for sale next week, better hope that the Chinese lady is sticking around. Things could get ugly.


----------



## furandhides

Everyone always looks at the price deviation at the Kopenhagen sale, as market indicator. It has been trending lower. The low clearances seem to be ultimately more important. You buy back an article, and in my experience, seldom gets better the second time around. You get 3 or 4 ranch mink sales, and they only sell 2/3 of the goods. Doesn't take long to add MILLIONS of skins to the backlog.


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## furandhides

You think that the fur market is poor. Try the beefhide business. Small packers, custom cut, country hides, etc.. = No present market for June delivery into China. Who's buying and at what $$$$$. CHEAP Buyer here in Mi. in Chapter 11 We are out of the market


----------



## wicklundrh

Curious about something. I was watching a program a few weeks back (might have been Jeremy Wade). Don't quote me but I beleive it was India? I beleive it was in relation to the Ganges river. They were discussing the lack of fish in the water. Originally it was thought to be because of over fishing. Then they discovered it was due to pollution. In large part because they are one of the worlds largest locals for commercial tanneries. 

They have now found a way utilzing different filter lenses on cameras to be able to track pollution going in to the water. They are following the trail back to the source. This has resulted in the closing of hundreds of tanneries. Yes, hundreds. It was estimated that in 2015, India had more than 2000 tanneries exporting more than 30% of that product outside of the country. 

I suspect that, with countries such as this having major crack downs on polution, closing plants, and so on, this might in some way come back and effect the very thing you are talking about (beefhide). Obviously this is one country but, others have to be cracking down and following suit. Not saying it is the end all be all to why things are tanking, just an added variable. Look what happened when the U.S and Canada closed a vast majority of tanneries. Production didn't decrease (IE, we didn't kill less cows) they just had to find other places to take them. NOW, there seems to be less overall places than ever dispite the fact that we are not decreaseing production.

I wonder if the existing tanneries (like in India) can even meet the demand. They probably can't even keep up with supply!


----------



## furandhides

From what I'm being told, same situation in China. The heavier polluting tanneries being shut down. More to it than that . The largest portion of the leather usage is shoes. Only 7% of all footwear now leather, 30% of womens. Man made material has replaced it. What could be the last load out is today. The trucks coming.


----------



## wicklundrh

Sometimes, even the smallest things seem to play in to that "big picture". Maybe all of us need to come up with a product that everyone has to have. Made up of raccoon, beaver, coyote, wild mink, muskrat etc... boy that would be one ugly product


----------



## FREEPOP

We can try and market these. I made it for the boss lady for Christmas with a leftover otter tail


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## klinkler

Freepop now come up with a top.


----------



## FREEPOP

klinkler said:


> Freepop now come up with a top.


MMMmmm, I do have a couple more tails.


----------



## furandhides

Forget the top. OOPS. Remembered we're trying to use material here. Back to reality. FHAsale was over by lunch. I watched most of the sale, lots of unsold, no bids, no interest. Coyotes met resistance. Only couple bids on otter. No bidding in fisher, mink. Rats poor. The Chinese lady wasn't there. I had 257 **** there. Straight run. 1/2 unsold from previous sales. Ave. exactly $3. LOL


----------



## furandhides

Just went through the catalogs. Rats fell .50 from the NAFA sale a few days earlier. No Chinese lady. Shows how one person can influence an entire sale.


----------



## FREEPOP

Trying Roger, it's easier on my work computer than a phone.

https://www.furharvesters.com/results/2018/May/may18us.pdf


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## klinkler

Roger, what does to be announced mean?


----------



## furandhides

Thanks Freepop. The results as posted on this sale, clearly show the shape we're in. To "be announced" must mean that things were cheaper and didn't move as well as expected, and we need more time to explain,etc.. LOL Was pretty much a disaster. I'm not picking. The sale at NAFA wasn't much better. The fur market has seriously lost ground again. Will be hard to gain any optimism going into next season. It SUCKS.


----------



## 9

A friend of mine commented as to how happy he was with a $15 average on his reds. I told him I took a $16 average in 1971 and THAT WAS big potatoes because the $$ had doubled from 1970. I ask him what he thought his $15 average really was in real $$ compared to 1971, about $4. I ask him if he’d be as happy today if he drew a $4 red average? He didn’t believe me (kids-lol)Same with rats, would he be as happy today with $.50-$.75 rats instead of what he thinks is a great price at less then $4?? Hell folks, 1971 wasn’t even close to the boom either! People sure forget about the value of the dollar and inflation but maybe if they never lived through the earlier times selling fur they can’t compar and the concept of value has gone away.


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## FREEPOP

First red I got was a pale young male, around 1977 and I got $75 for it, on the carcass. I know I'll never see anything like that again.


----------



## 9

Here's another perspective. In 1971 I was a journeyman welder and journeyman pipe fabricator (2 cards) at Dow and was making about $5.60/hr, so my $16 red average was REAL $$ to me and my family. So, today in Dow I believe the same journeyman wage is around $28/hr (could be more?) what does that make a $15 red fox average in terms of real $$ compared to 1971? LOL


----------



## wicklundrh

Great comparison Seldom.


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## furandhides

Can't imagine someone happy with their $15 ave. on reds. That's part of the problem with the fur market. You read about all the happy trappers selling fur at these ridiculously low $$$. I never run into any of these sellers. LOL I really get a charge out of the 200 gray fox, that sold 13% for a $20 bill. REALLY???


----------



## Patrickr

Seldom, your assessment is spot on as usual. Very thought provoking. It seems ridiculous to be producing a product with 2018 production costs and selling it for about 1971 prices. I remember years in the late 1960's when a fur buyer would not even buy a ****, but at my local buyer's shop he was paying $.10 for kit muskrat, $.25 for smalls, $.50 for mediums, and $.75 for large and up. In 1975 the wild fur markets really started to take off. By 1977 I knew of several trappers who would sell their season's catch and had made enough to go buy brand new 4 wheel drive trucks. Try that today lol.


----------



## Patrickr

furandhides said:


> Can't imagine someone happy with their $15 ave. on reds. That's part of the problem with the fur market. You read about all the happy trappers selling fur at these ridiculously low $$$. I never run into any of these sellers. LOL I really get a charge out of the 200 gray fox, that sold 20% for a $20 bill. REALLY???


IMO, I believe a major reason for all of these "happy" trappers is that for decades they have had it shoved down their throats that "trapping is a recreational sport". They don't know any better. Trappers have forgotten that wild fur production has always been a commercial activity that is primarily financially driven. Take away the ability to turn a decent profit for the energy, time, and monetary investment involved each year and the wild fur industry will cease to exist. I sold my first Red Fox in January of 1969, on the carcass, for $10. My financial costs were nothing. The traps were Christmas gifts. I was only 12 years old so my line was a walking line. $10 in 1969 was good money. Today, 2018, my truck costs me a minimum of $.65 per mile to operate. My Sterling MJ 500 traps are in the excess of $400 per dozen to purchase when you add on shipping. Fur trappers need to get serious and change their way of thinking before it is too late.


----------



## 9

By golly it's great to hear experience from 1969 Patrickr because I switched to strictly reds in 1970! When I say I switched to reds, I mean I'm one of those trappers who dedicate themselves to one specific species until experience has been gained to a degree where switching back to a multiple species line is warranted. This philosophy worked for me in learning different welding processes so I applied it to trapping with equal success. Think of a beagle pup being trained to be great on rabbits, what do you do, you feed that dog a 1000's rabbit tracks! In 1970 I took an $8 average on reds and when my average doubled the next year to $16 average I was money in the bank!!

Excuse me if I got a little off track.


----------



## Patrickr

I know what you mean Seldom. Caught the red fever and it stuck with me until the coyote came on the scene. And that was all she wrote about me. Other than ADC work, I have been hooked on canines since getting out of the military back in '75. Learned everything I could about canines. And still learning more. These days I get more enjoyment out of targeting a particular animal that I want for one reason or another than I do busting my hump for a large catch of low priced fur. Trapping that one last beaver on an ADC job can be as challenging as going after a previously pinched adult coyote. While frustrating at times, it is a rush when you finally get the one.


----------



## Urriah

Obviously, there's a difference in impact between 'recreational' and 'professional' trappers on the market. I doubt that a hobby trapper bringing 20-50 rats to his local buyer makes any difference in the world in the market. The bigger issue is guys putting up thousands come hell or high water, economically speaking. I'd be willing to bet it's those recreational guys who don't impact the market much that are going to drop out, so I can't see things improving much supply-wise until a few more tough years straight force people to cut back on production. It's a paradox that the people that will likely quit aren't likely going to impact things much, whereas the people that will likely stick it out are the ones more likely to be screwing themselves.
The flip side of that is the importance of maintaining a support base and public relevancy. The other most active thread in weeks was bemoaning the lack of organization amongst trappers; that's going to be hard to generate if prices keep eroding. Look at the collapse in understanding of trapping among the general public since the 80's. Another generation of that and where are we?
So I definitely understand the frustration of seeing folks thrilled about receiving pennies for good fur, but those guys are still an important political component and likely a fairly small economic component. There sure aren't going to be any easy answers and these next few years are going to keep being tough. Me, I'm going to keep chipping away at species I don't pursue much in the hopes that I'll be ready when the market does shape up, plus putting in a solid 4 or 5 days a year on rats to continue to try to improve my efficiency without stockpiling too much cheap fur, plus take care of some problems I have to deal with.


----------



## Patrickr

Urriah, for the sake of everybody being on the same page and using the same language maybe we should understand what legally defines being "recreational", "commercial", "hobby", and "professional" when it comes to fur harvesting and trapping for fur.

Based on US Supreme Court rulings in cases involving the harvesting and selling of natural resources fur trapping/fur harvesting is a "commercial" activity because the State of Michigan allows the pelts to be intentionally harvested with the primary intent of selling them into the interstate commerce system! That is an undisputable fact of law. The hunting of game species such as deer, elk, bear, rabbits, etc., is "recreational" because the State of Michigan DOES NOT allow these species to be harvested with the primary intent of selling them into the interstate commerce system. We hunt those species with the primary intent of obtaining meat for our own self consumption, a trophy on the wall, and the companionship of hunting with friends and family. Deer and elk hides are allowed to be sold into the interstate commerce system as a by-product of a recreational activity.

Based on IRS Guidelines a "commercial" activity is broken down into two categories; (A) "hobby", and (B) "professional". From a trapping perspective, a "hobby" trapper/fur harvester is one who intentionally/deliberately DOES NOT conduct their trapping activities in a business like manner, does not attempt to turn a profit, and as a fact does not make a profit from their fur trapping/fur harvesting activities 3 out of every five years. Whereas a "professional" trapper/fur harvester is one who intentionally/deliberately DOES conduct their trapping activities in a business like manner, attempts to turn a profit every year, and does make a profit from their fur trapping/fur harvesting activities 3 or more years out of every 5 years.

In either case, according to state and federal law everybody is required to report their gross trapping income on their taxes as earned income. And based on your records and intent, the IRS will determine if you are trapping as a hobby or as a professional and determine your taxable income accordingly. Thus the reason to keep good records.

As for as your concerns about who impacts the world supply of wild fur more, the "small numbers" producers or the "high numbers" producers, by far it is the COLLECTIVE effect of the "low numbers" producers that will have the largest impact on the world supply of wild fur simply because there are vastly more "low numbers" producers than "high numbers" producers. That is a mathematical and real world fact.

As for your concerns about the political and financial impact of losing the support of fur trappers/fur harvesters who "quit fur trapping/fur harvesting" as a result of poor fur market conditions, I think your concerns are very valid IF, and ONLY IF, they quit being politically and financially active in supporting fur trapping/fur harvesting. If they quit being politically and financially active just because they stopped being a producer for a few years then they weren't really the type of people we need in our industry watching over our business interests. Just my opinion.


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## Urriah

Patrick, I agree that 'hobby' is better terminology. Was just running with what had been previously tossed around. The commercial terminology is obviously lawful and accurate, but attending just about any auction, reading ffg, or reading the questions on these forums points towards the majority of trappers and especially predator hunters as primarily recreationally driven.



Patrickr said:


> As for as your concerns about who impacts the world supply of wild fur more, the "small numbers" producers or the "high numbers" producers, by far it is the COLLECTIVE effect of the "low numbers" producers that will have the largest impact on the world supply of wild fur simply because there are vastly more "low numbers" producers than "high numbers" producers. That is a mathematical and real world fact.


I don't know enough about the overall markets, so I believe you to be accurate here. My statement is based on my local experiences and experiences at our state sales. Out of the ten or so folks who trapped in my area this past year, you can add up the 'bottom 8' and it won't equal the production of the 2nd highest producer, much less the top producer. This has been my experience the past couple years watching the MTPCA auctions too. Numbers drop dramatically after the top 2 or 3 guys. Admittedly, I primarily rat trap so I'm not really paying attention to other species. I'd imagine it's quite a bit different with, say, *****.

Just for educational purposes, how do you know this impact is a mathematical fact? Like I said, I'm sure you've got more experience and knowledge than I; I'd just like to get my hands on it to pass along to others I know.



Patrickr said:


> As for your concerns about the political and financial impact of losing the support of fur trappers/fur harvesters who "quit fur trapping/fur harvesting" as a result of poor fur market conditions, I think your concerns are very valid IF, and ONLY IF, they quit being politically and financially active in supporting fur trapping/fur harvesting. If they quit being politically and financially active just because they stopped being a producer for a few years then they weren't really the type of people we need in our industry watching over our business interests. Just my opinion.


I wasn't really clear with what I was trying to say, I guess. I'm not necessarily worried about the trapper who is quitting no longer supporting fur harvesting, but removing his impact from the people around him. That's why I mentioned the change in perception in the last 30 years. Everyone who quits today would probably still support trapping, but they're less likely to educate and recruit into the future. I talk to a lot of outdoorsmen and routinely folks in the 40-60 year old range will say that they used to trap, or knew someone well who did. People south of 40 generally have little to no idea, likely because of their age during the last boom.

It's an interesting and big topic, I enjoy reading the takes from you and Seldom and Roger who've been around longer than I.


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## Patrickr

Urriah, don't apologize for stating your opinion. I can respect a person's opinion. Your opinion is based on what you have experienced, what you have heard, and what you have read. Nothing wrong with that. That is one of the reasons I wanted to make sure we were all using the same wording with the knowledge of where it came from. Please allow me to elaborate some more.

Most of us have been brainwashed, or conned if you will, into believing that fur trapping and fur harvesting (hunting) are engaged in as a "recreational activity/pursuit" the same as if we were hunting for game animals like deer, elk, bear, rabbit, etc., etc.. But that is a lie that is based on the North American Model of Conservation which has been the basis for, or guiding principals of, our modern conservation programs all across the US that was ushered in when commercial hunting was banned. The North American Model of Conservation is taught in almost every major university that offers classes in conservation and is endorsed by numerous outdoor/sportsmen organizations such as the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation to name one. The North American Model of Conservation is nothing more than a set of 7 specific ideologies that have no legal basis, and carry no legal authority. Two of these ideologies states that wildlife (be they fowl, fish, small game, big game, furbearers, or predators) should not be commercially harvested under any circumstances and called for an end to all commercial markets. And all wildlife is to be harvested for self consumption, or to protect your own, or your family's, life/lives, health, or property (including your own livestock). The long held belief that trapping and hunting are one in the same comes directly from the set of ideologies that we now know as the North American Model of Conservation because that is what the DNR wants you to believe and because it fits their agenda. That is also why many of us have heard from our DNR personnel that trappers and fur hunters are not supposed to make money off from wildlife. This is why so many people and outdoor writers in particular get confused and consider fur trapping and fur harvesting as being recreational. On an individual basis, as long as an individual is selling one single pelt or animal in the carcass they are commercial. If they are keeping the animal for their own self consumption then they are recreational.

The reality of our situation is that because the State of Michigan, as well as other States, allows us to intentionally pursue furbearers and predators with the sole intent of harvesting their pelts and other body parts and sell them into the interstate commerce system fur trapping and fur harvesting (hunting) are commercial activities. As such fur trapping and fur harvesting (hunting) are protected under the auspices of the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the US Constitution as well as the Commerce Clause. 

Urriah, your reference point for comparison is too small if you are only going by what you see in your local area or at the MTPCA auctions. Running with your example of using the muskrat harvest, if you look at the total muskrat harvest for just the State of Michigan, which is a very small segment of the world production of muskrats, I'd liberally figure that the top 10 percent of all people trapping muskrats seriously in Michigan only produce at best 25% of the total muskrat harvest in the State. The remaining 75% of the harvest is produced by the remaining 90 percent of all the muskrat trappers. Very few people have the time, equipment, knowledge, muskrat numbers, and personal work ethic to harvest those big catches that you see at the local auctions. The only way to prove this without question would be if the state required each producer to provide their catch numbers each season for each specie like some other states do. If you do some research you will also see it is a mathematical fact. 

There are a lot of people who know somebody who used to set traps or who was a hard charging, died in the wool, trapper. There is a direct correlation between what the wild fur market is paying and trapper/fur harvester participation rates. Hey, we all get old, ill, have changes in our life that affect our ability to continue trapping hard or if we are even able to trap at all. Some just give up due to poor market conditions or they aren't business savvy enough to figure out how to continue fur trapping/fur harvesting. Continuing trapping in a low price market or in no market at all is a thread all its own. But it can be done. I know of one individual that grossed over a million dollars trapping fox and coyote in the decade after the market crash of '87. Believe it or not. Your choice.


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## wicklundrh

Patrick,

You know what is scary in all of this? The very thought that the market in question could potentially have a direct impact on the future of trapping. By future I'm not referring to the political issues that we have and continue to face but rather the "future trappers". This is what I am refrencing regarding future. Without the younger generation, there isn't much of a future.

Follow with me for a minute. Let's say you had a young man in the early to mid 80's. He has a father, uncle, granpa, or other influential person in his life who is a trapper. That trapper puts in a lot of hard work, time, and energy. The young man (or women) sees the enjoyment not just from being in the woods, outsmarting animals, managing the wildlife, but also the financial gain that he is getting. His interest is peaked. The influential person takes him out and teaches him. Soon, he has his own little trap line started. Running it before school or after school. Catching mink and muskrats in the ditchlines and ***** in the hardwoods. He likes it! And, there is a benefit (financially). 

Fastforward to the down years. That same young man or women sees a trapper. Whether he be hobby or other. He sees the long hours, the time, the blood, the sweet, and the minimalistic rewards that are reaped. His interest isn't peaked. He doesn't see any gain in doing it. Yes, kids of today are different. They require instant gratification and all that jazz. But I'm just using the same model with the same "type" of kid. Today, the kid would have a hard time seeing the benefit.

Move down the road further. Lets say (because we all cross our fingers everyday) that Roger gives us some great news and the market has a major uptick. All of us are getting a little longer in the teeth. You, Seldom, Fool'em, me. We are getting older. Sure, we can do some damage but those younger ones, the ones we counted on in the 80's to be the next generation, might all be gone! 

We will always have the die hard guys that continue to do it (for whatever reason). Many of us can still turn a profit. We just find new and creative ways to do it. Sad to say but the many hobbiest that quickly turned to "pro's" back in the early 80's are slowly leaving. Unfortunately, they are not selling their traps to the newer generations. 

I guess in basic terms, my major concern is that, when/if the market does come back, will there be anyone left to take our place?


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## furandhides

The smaller local trappers began calling it quits a few years ago. They took their kids with them. Add to that the aging trappers, who still might attend a convention, that no longer trap themselves. They will join those no longer with us, sooner rather than later. Most of the guys that trapped around here are dead, or in a home. Had an interesting conversation last week about the future of the leather business. His thoughts were that $$ may never come back, and that it will solely be the fact that the raw material is so awfully cheap, that keeps some demand alive. You can't draw direct comparison between a cowhide and fur. Cows are being slaughtered, and if you can get anything for what would become trash, well. **** can be killed and pelt only comes off if there's some degree of profitability. The number of pelts offered continues to drop. If it wasn't for large numbers of unsold goods that keep getting carried over, and added into the size of the next offering, numbers would begin to look smaller. It is a trend that will continue . Was talking with a long time fur trapper and one time fur buyer, a few days ago. He said that he always believed that the antifur people would take the industry down, and it certainly has hurt most in U.S. and Europe. Now it appears that MONEY, TIME, and POLITICS are appearing much more deadly. I couldn't agree more.


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## Urriah

I had an interesting conversation with one of the tourist furrier shops in Alaska one time; they saw more and more younger people (20's and 30's) interested in fur and less 'wealthy older folks'. I've seen the same. A lot of my peers are genuinely interested in fur as a renewable resource and alternative to plastic based outerwear. I'm more optimistic for public support for the fur market than I've been in a long time, but I agree that Money and Time may well be the real killers.
As far as kids go, it's tough to recruit them to something like deer or duck hunting that only require a half day investment of time at a go. It's near impossible to get them to commit to checking traps each day with all the activities kids these days are involved in. It's a lot easier with your own kids, but nieces/nephews (the actual term for these are niblings, who knew) or neighbor kids are tough. It was really depressing at the last Otisville auction; hardly any lots, even less kids, near silence apart from the MC. We knew that would be the last one at that location as soon as we left.


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## wicklundrh

Gives new meaning to the term "hard earned dollar". Seldom hit the nail on the head regarding inflation. Always makes you wonder what an outsider with zero experience would think.

Do they look and say: "wow, you get 15 bucks for a coyote". Or, you only get 15 bucks for a coyote. Obviously, they don't know what goes in to it. Kids look at jobs like that too. They may say wow, you make 20 some bucks an hour doing that. Or, you only make 20 some bucks an hour.

Again, what Seldom said resignates because we remember the good and bad times. Normally, we want new blood that has zero misconceptions about good or bad. We want them to say WOW. Instead they say ONLY!

I have always said this to my daughter: when out trapping specifically coyotes, we might find an area to throw in a **** set. It isn't that we want to catch ***** per say. Just that we want to capitalize on our time. My saying: never step over a 5 dollar bill to get to a ten dollar bill!

Of course, in this day and age, kids don't use money, they use plastic money. They have zero concept of what it means. A trip to McDonald's doesn't mean 1 hours worth of work to them. Or 2 raccoon pelts (or 4). I see kids throw pennies in the parking lots. They mean nothing to them. I pick them up and say that I didn't do one ounce of work and I'm 1 cent closer to being a millionaire


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## BigJoe.

While the topic of youth is here I will share my experience. As some if you know I am a trapper education instructor for the DNR and the three state trapping organizations. (I teach it, i didnt say i was any good at it.) When I have a class, let's say 20 students sign up. About 80% are adults. What I mean by adult are people 16 years and older. 
Any young kids are brought to class by Mom or Dad. One note on that, when I have kids of any age brought to class by Mom and Mom takes the class also, those kids are very attentive. 
Some kids brought to class by parents just don't seem interested, dad just wants them to like it like dad does. But some kids just don't want to be a trapper. That's ok, as long as they understand trapping and grow up to be able to support it.
Trapping was so secretive for so long it kept some people from learning. Now with the Internet, social media and many more options, people can learn the secret life of a trapper. 
I believe some of you are spot on when you say kids are different than even 20 years ago. BUT, that doesn't mean we can't peak their interest when it comes to trapping. If you have a chance, give them the bug we all share.


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## Patrickr

Wicklundrh, super post. A lot of thought and time went into that one. Your experience shows as well. I agree almost 100% with you. The list of reasons why we are in our current situation goes way beyond just the monetary rewards. But, because fur trapping and fur harvesting have always been about the financial returns for your investments and efforts that is a major concern. And we all know that the wild fur prices to the producers have not kept up with the rate of inflation while the finished product prices that the furrier sells for has.

I believe trapping, and by trapping I mean fur trapping and trapping as a means of controlling nuisance and depredating species on a year around basis, will continue for a long time into the future. That is provided our trapping associations stop conducting their business like a "good ole' boys" club and get set up to operate as a professional trade association and they begin to protect and increase trapping opportunities for all of its independent businessmen whose businesses they represent.

I stopped telling potential trappers that they could make money fur trapping back after the crash of '87 even though I know numerous people who, even this past season made in excess of $20K in PROFITS for 12 weeks of hard labor and long days. 

I promote trapping/nuisance wildlife management as a profession now with fur sales being a by-product of our efforts during the late fall and winter time frames. I feel that that is the future of trapping, especially where fur trapping is concerned. A major part of our problem today and into the future is the readily available amount of ranch fur that can continue to squash wild fur prices a long way into the future. Politics is another concern for our future. That is why we need to become more flexible as to how we trap, when we trap, and why we trap. We need to become more professional in our conduct, marketing, and public relations. We need to demonstrate that as trappers we provide a valuable benefit to society as a whole and to individuals in particular. As our society changes we need to adapt and change with it. And with those changes we need to change our mission and vision statements so society will continue to support us and what we do. If we can do these things we might stand a chance, and if we are successful, recruitment will take care of itself.

That is how I see it shaping up.


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## 9

Man-O-Man, there are some absolutely great posts in this thread. I’m glad I’m part of this forum to read them!!


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## Fool'em

Seldom said:


> Man-O-Man, there are some absolutely great posts in this thread. I’m glad I’m part of this forum to read them!!


x2
Some great points to ponder
I can say I'm glad I have a day job cause money would be tight if I had to depend on my trapping skill
Money might not be great but the look on my daughters face when I handed her our fur check was priceless. For a 13 YO the money wasn't bad this year. Another 3 years of trapping and she will be able to afford a POS 4x4 truck of her dreams. 

I think kids can still be attracted by the financial part of trapping. My daughter says she would rather make less than minimum wage trapping rats and **** than getting a job at the burger joint. 

We do the youth a disservice if trapping is presented as only recreational. Teach them how to positively effect their income while being outdoors is the way. For us half the fun is trying to be profitable. Much can be learned about running a business thru trapping and some of those lessons you don't learn in school

I pulled my daughter out of school for a day to run traps in early November. Her extra assignment was to write a essay about why she was taking off school. Her teacher e-mailed me after and said she wrote about how she learned how to reduce cost and increase gross income which would mean more profit. He told me to take her out of school any time because lessons like that are worth it. 
I was shocked, she must have been listening to me after all. I thought she was just playing with the rats.


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## wicklundrh

Patrick, once again, spot on. I 100% agree about the points you made in reference to teaching kids (or future generations) about the benefits of trapping. Not necessarily from a finacial standpoint but for the good of the animals and the management of the herd. As trappers, many of us know that too many of one things is bad. We also know that not enough of something is also bad. It is a very fine balance.

I was waiting for Fool'em to finally post about his daughter! As all of us have been able to see with the many threads and photos over the last few years, he is obviously doing it the right way. I'm not talking about the number of catches, the amount of money, or anything else. Look at any picture with his daughter and see the SMILE on her face! And it is obvious about her essay that she understands the importance of what she is learning! For as long as we can recall, fur has been money. Years and years ago, it was traded. He didn't sell the fur for a dollar, you traded it for items needed. Today it changes but in essance, it is still currancy.

When I started my daughter out I was walking a tight rope regarding how I would handle dispatching an animal. How I would explain the importance of what we are doing and why we are doing it. In the end, I decided that the best course of action was to provide my honest feelings about it.

I explained that when you have too many of one species in a specific area, it can negativily impact other things. Too many coyotes and the population of other things such as turkeys, deer, and rabbits can suffer. Conversly, too many rabbits brings other issues. I spoke about balance. I explained that I do not know what the proper balance is or could never really know how many animals an area holds or is supposed to hold. I can only do the best I can.

I taught her that, when done properly, the animals do not suffer. Traps are designed to hold the animal in place. We can further add things such as snubbers to reduce things such as "pumping" and relieve stress on the animals paws, pads, and legs. Adding extra swivels helps the traps work freely and again saves the animals. I demonstrated that animals could be released (non target or smaller animals) and they wouldn't have any problems. 

I showed her that like many, the worst part of the job is dispatching the animals but it is what we have to do. The reality is that we owe it to the animals to do it in the most human way possible to avoid any undue suffering. Man I wish I had a go-pro at that time! Those were great leasons.

After many weeks, I allowed her to choose a location. With my help she set her first DP. She baited it herself, put in a scent trail, and was responsible for checking it daily. After two days she connected on a 20lb ****. It was her decision to release the animal or dispatch it humanly. She selected to dispatch it. Instead of selling the fur and giving her the money, I made the decision to turn that **** into a hat. One that she can have an be proud of for the rest of her life. 

I don't know how many children I can possitivly impact with my time left on earth but I know that I atleast did right by one! Someday, when she is out of the house, I hope to find some other young man or women looking for guidance. Trapping will be my way to help educate them! 

Roger, Sorry the thread took a turn but thanks for allowing us to provide some details as to why we think the market turns the way it does, what we foresee in the future, and what we might be able to do to help swing it back in the right direction!


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## furandhides

No wrong turn. Been interesting and informative. There's not much we can do about various govts. subsidizing their native industries. The ranch mink our Enemy No. 1, supply outstripping demand. The 30 % tariff by the Chinese govt. on wild fur imports. It is said that if the tariff were to be removed, $$ would jump more like 50% on many items. just the fact that there is a tariff, keeps many potential customers from getting involved.


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## Patrickr

LOL, Fool'em, I agree with your daughter completely. I would never work a minimum wage job if there was trapping I could do when I was a young guy growing up. I would even prefer to buck hay bales, break horses, or shovel manure to working in a fast food joint or being a pump jockey at the local gas station. Trapping has always been the ultimate job in my opinion and it has influenced my life in so many ways. It made me a better hunter, it prepared me to be a good soldier, and it made me into a successful businessman.

I raised three sons and they all went with me on the fur trapline as well as on the ADC jobs. They enjoyed it but none of them wanted that type of lifestyle for themselves. I can still see their faces when they caught their first fox, ****, muskrat, mouse, or moles. They lit right up. They still light up when they talk about the old days out trapping and hunting with the old man.

Like you other guys I'm always looking for that next individual that I can influence and educate about why we trap and hopefully have the opportunity to teach them how to trap successfully be it for the financial reward or personal gratification from resolving their own wildlife problems. It has been a great run so far.

I have not got to where I am ability wise on my own. I owe it to my mentors to thank them for their influence and for the time they invested in my education through personal instructions or one on one conversations. They are; L. Craig O'Gorman, Robert Wendt, Robert Waddell, Larry Rutherford, Chris Normandin, Ken Smythe, Gerald Schmitt, John Graham, Mel Utter, the late Don Beirman, and the late Charles Dobbins.


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## furandhides

Several days ago, FHA issued their synopsis on the present state of the market. They are predicting a massive pelt out on all types of ranch mink. If this is true, I would think that the blood would be flowing as we speak. Why spend $$ on producing more kits to feed and grow, then sell at a loss come Fall. I'm not sure, that all of a sudden, there is going to be this rebound in wild fur $$$ due to a less than adequate supply of ranch goods. Everyone should take the time to read the report. I see also that I sold a few more ****, private treaty, after the sale. I'm up to a $3.08 ave. up 8 cents. LOL I certainly hope they're right, I've got alot of skins in the game. Right now, there is no realistic market. I believe in telling the truth, like I've said before, not into bedtime stories. Looks as if next season will be very poor, and any relief another 2-3 years down the road. I'm gonna run out of time. LOL BTW, oil $$ dropping steadily by the day now. More good news. If $$ were going to rebound anytime soon, those in the know and with cash on hand, would already be creating an increased demand, and there is certainly none of that. When clearances are pitifully poor, obviously, no ones interested. Together with bargain basement prices, no action in the market.


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## wicklundrh

Roger,

Just a general question but I've always been curious. On an average, how long would you say that pelts such as Raccoon are held in storage? Does anyone still have ***** in the game from 4 or 5 years ago? 

In this day and age, certain types of cold storage could prolong the holding of pelts for several years. Obviously unlike the 70's and 80's for sure where that really wasn't an option. As a result, the supply continues to go up. Especially when less pelts are sold than what is produced or introduced to the market (plus hold backs).

The reason I ask is that Mr. Willie Stephen's and I had a good conversation before his passing (as we always did). We were coming off a relatively good year regarding **** and I brought in some fresh ones for him. I never compained about price because, neither of us could control it. I was just curious when the price was down. WAY down from the year before. I asked Willie and he said things didn't look good. He told me of the number of pelts he had (from last year) in storage. That had me thinking. He trusted me but also knew that I understood economics.

So he said this to me. You take 25,000 ***** in storage with an average purchase price along with time and materials for skinning and fleshing and I have (just a ballpark) 10 dollar average per **** vested (just an example). This year, the market tanks. In his mind, he needed to double down, purchase more ***** BUT, at a much lower price than market. This way, those 10 dollar average numbers and the new average from this year will work out to ZERO in the end. Just trying to save himself!!!! It made sense to me.

Thinking back, the year didn't get better. In fact it got worse. Much worse. By the next year, the prices were even lower. I knew he still had those high dollar ***** in the game. Thus the reason for my question. How long can they last or do people hold them? can it be indefinate? Having 25k ***** worth 10 or more per pelt in a game with a 3 dollar average is never going to work out!!!

I miss ole Willie! Remind me sometime to tell the story of the Tail less **** he had hanging in the shop. He sure was proud of that one!


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## James Dymond

wicklundrh said:


> Roger,
> 
> Just a general question but I've always been curious. On an average, how long would you say that pelts such as Raccoon are held in storage? Does anyone still have ***** in the game from 4 or 5 years ago?
> 
> In this day and age, certain types of cold storage could prolong the holding of pelts for several years. Obviously unlike the 70's and 80's for sure where that really wasn't an option. As a result, the supply continues to go up. Especially when less pelts are sold than what is produced or introduced to the market (plus hold backs).
> 
> The reason I ask is that Mr. Willie Stephen's and I had a good conversation before his passing (as we always did). We were coming off a relatively good year regarding **** and I brought in some fresh ones for him. I never compained about price because, neither of us could control it. I was just curious when the price was down. WAY down from the year before. I asked Willie and he said things didn't look good. He told me of the number of pelts he had (from last year) in storage. That had me thinking. He trusted me but also knew that I understood economics.
> 
> So he said this to me. You take 25,000 ***** in storage with an average purchase price along with time and materials for skinning and fleshing and I have (just a ballpark) 10 dollar average per **** vested (just an example). This year, the market tanks. In his mind, he needed to double down, purchase more ***** BUT, at a much lower price than market. This way, those 10 dollar average numbers and the new average from this year will work out to ZERO in the end. Just trying to save himself!!!! It made sense to me.
> 
> Thinking back, the year didn't get better. In fact it got worse. Much worse. By the next year, the prices were even lower. I knew he still had those high dollar ***** in the game. Thus the reason for my question. How long can they last or do people hold them? can it be indefinate? Having 25k ***** worth 10 or more per pelt in a game with a 3 dollar average is never going to work out!!!
> 
> I miss ole Willie! Remind me sometime to tell the story of the Tail less **** he had hanging in the shop. He sure was proud of that one!


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## James Dymond

I am ready for the tail less **** story. Anything would be better than talking about fur prices.

Jim


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## wicklundrh

James Dymond said:


> I am ready for the tail less **** story. Anything would be better than talking about fur prices.
> 
> Jim


For those that don't know, Stephen's furs is located just outside the town of Munith Michigan. It is kind of in a triangle between Jackson, Stockbridge, and Chelsea Michigan.

Jeff Daniels and his family has lived in Chelsea for a number of years. Yes, the Jeff Daniels from movies like Dumb and Dumber, The Martian, 101 dalmatians, and countelss others. He also wrote, directed, and stared in "Escanaba In Da Moonlight". 

Jeff and his family own "The Purple Rose" theater in Chelsea. He is a really down to earth guy that never really got in to the Hollywood scene and has lived in Chelsea for many years. 

At one particular time, the Purple Rose was doing a performance of none other than "Escanaba in Da Moonlight". It was so huge that the production was actually extended on a few different occasions. 

At any rate, the day the first performance is scheduled, they find that one of their props has been missing, is damaged, or whatever (not sure). It was an important prop and not one you can just run out and find! The production company contacted Mr. Willie Stephen's and asked if he might be able to help them find this particular prop. The prop in question was a Raccoon Tail!

Although Willie would normally have several **** furs available, I beleive they had already sent all their furs out for the year. In his shop he had (1) **** fur. A rather large **** that he had saved for some particular reason or another. Without hesitation, he offered up that **** tail to them.

A production person came to his business and retrieved the tail to which Willie would take no money for. They asked if he would be interested in being their special guest for the opening performance. Although not one to go out on the town much, Willie accepted the offer and took his wife to the performance. After that, he would go to the theater several times per year with his wife where he was always given tickets at no charge!

That tail less **** fur hung behind his main desk for years after that. That is the story of the tail less **** as I remember it!


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## Patrickr

Roger, I am in full agreement with your assessment of the current and near future market outlook. Trying to look out 5 years with current conditions and it doesn't look good for me. Of course things could change, but I don't foresee the fur pipelines opening up anytime soon.

The market is definitely changing. It seems to be narrowly defining which types and grades of furs it wants produced and that is it. Right now it is for western heavy coyotes and A belly western bobcats that are primarily produced in a small segment of the country. Who knows, in a couple of years it might be for a select grade and size of **** from another small segment of the country. The market is changing, society is changing, agriculture is changing, and yes, even trapping for fur and nuisance/depredating species is changing. Are enough trappers willing and able to change with it or will the government expand their WS programs and take the industry over?

Wicklundrh, I liked that story. Made me think of the times I spent with Jack VanHoose at his shop outside of Greenville, MI and Lloyd Hanson at his shop in Sparta, MI. Good times.


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## furandhides

James Dymond said:


> I am ready for the tail less **** story. Anything would be better than talking about fur prices.
> 
> Jim


This is the FUR MARKET REPORT Jim... always have the option of not clicking on the post. To answer the ?, I would think that there are at least hundreds of thousands of ***** and other skins in storage since the crash. When you get into a prolonged period of drought, it is hard to average down and make it work. Sounds good in theory, but in practical reality, ?????. Lots of things to consider... storage costs, loss of interest income or opportunity to invest more profitably in some other venture, etc.. Storage at NAFA and FHA is cold storage NOT freezer storage. Very different. Cold storage, shows age. Pelts become yellowed or even heavily orange as the years go on. Freezer storage , under ideal conditions, and I'm not talking the home freezer, can keep skins looking fresh for years. I had 2500 beaver in the freezer, a number of years ago. Some of the bales had been in there for 5 years. They all sold as FRESH. Also, different species hold differently. I've had **** in freezer, after several seasons, no longer appear as FRESH. Something in the grease of certain species. STALE is yellowed. Pelts can be yellowed or even orange, and dress OK. I bought some otter one time that had the saddles left on, like you would a mink. They were heavy with the meat and fat and had turned a brilliant orange. I had them in the freezer for a few years, pulled them out, had them tanned, good as new. I've heard that some stale skins have a certain % of mortality in the dressing process. I'm no expert there. STALE = It's always an excuse to buy cheaper. With the ranch goods included, millions of skins in the freezer awaiting better days. LOL


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## furandhides

I have had privately lotted goods at the auction house for several years, and have had them returned to me, at some expense to myself. I was disappointed to see the condition of the skins after a few years. They were stale to very stale. Much more so than I would have thought. I would not rely on cold storage in future ventures. Education always comes with a price.


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## wicklundrh

Thanks Roger. That is the exact information I was looking for. Always meant to ask Willie the next time I saw him but there turned out to not be a next time.

Sometimes we think we have the answers. Sometimes we hope we have the answers. Sometimes we know we have the answers. Then, in times like this, we hope we know what we think isn't the answer. 

Thanks for shooting straight on that one Roger. I appreciate having someone that knows the business that I can ask questions to and get solid answers from.


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## furandhides

Like I've said before, I really liked Willy. Probably one of the best guys I've ever met in the fur business. Great personality. Don't make 'em like that very often.


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## furandhides

I see that they cut me a check on my ****. Sold more private treaty. Ave. went down to $2.60 with 221 sold and 36 unsold. That's before comm. and $12 freight. LOL Really getting excited.


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## FREEPOP

You said you were looking for **** this fall?


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## wicklundrh

FREEPOP said:


> You said you were looking for **** this fall?


I just spit sweet tea all over my phone!


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## BigJoe.

Roger, how many do you need thus fall? I will see what I can do. Seriously, with talks slowly going with Russia, how many more down years on the **** market?


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## 9

furandhides said:


> I see that they cut me a check on my ****. Sold more private treaty. Ave. went down to $2.60 with 221 sold and 36 unsold. That's before comm. and $12 freight. LOL Really getting excited.


Holy sweet jesus! That’s like getting a prostrate exam from a Doc with big fat knuckles and a short, stubby finger!!!!!


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## furandhides

Good to see that everyone is keeping their sense of humor. At least I'm getting a few laughs for my efforts. It's down to about ridiculous. Lots worse than anything that I've ever seen. Looking forward to the NTA at Escanaba, and the meet in Evart. Enjoy the summer.


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## furandhides

Forgot to deduct the $10 for the magazine subscription. LOL


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## furandhides

Inspection begins today for the June sale at Kopenhagen. The sale runs from June 22-29, and nearly 8 million mink will be offered, along with other furs and skins. Immediately following, NAFA begins their July auction, where an additional 4 million mink, and large volumes of wild fur will be offered over the 4th of July holiday period. Just might as well kiss goodbye, the prospect of reducing tariffs on wild fur. Could get worse as tensions rise in the new U.S. China trade war. Oil $$ continue to fall steadily, and buyer sentiment slips in optimism amid growing uncertainty.


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## furandhides

The sale in Kopenhagen is history. Slightly less than 1/2 of the nearly 8 million mink cleared. Prior to the sale, it was announced that the lowest base $$ going forward will be the June sale figures. No goods in Sept. will be offered at $$ less than the June levels, as protection for the ranch customer. Inspection begins in a few days for the July sale at NAFA in Toronto.


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## furandhides

Very dismal sale at NAFA. "Ladies and gentlemen, the fur business for all intents and purposes is drawing its last breath. I went thru 1987/88 and this is much worse". Quote by Terry Manley, NAFA's major agent, a few moments ago.


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## klinkler

I wonder what this means for the ADC business? Could be a +. What do ya think?


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## wicklundrh

furandhides said:


> Very dismal sale at NAFA. "Ladies and gentlemen, the fur business for all intents and purposes is drawing its last breath. I went thru 1987/88 and this is much worse". Quote by Terry Manley, NAFA's major agent, a few moments ago.


Roger,
All I can say is "Wow". Especially when it is a quote from a major NAFA agent. Scary information right there. Surely bad for those of us that enjoy it and liked making a little side money but extremely scary for someone in your situation who does it for a living.

I'm not going to put you on the spot and ask what your plans are moving forward. I know in years past that guys would double down, buy MORE to try and even it out BUT, that was when we saw ebbs and flows with the potential to break even between good seasons and bad. I guess the thing to do is let us know what you need/want moving forward and we can try and make it happen!


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## 9

Price of lure is going up as well as gas prices and it appears right now $70+/bbl of oil isn't going to make any difference by putting more $$ in the fur market. I'll be 72 when this trapping season starts and unless I'm totally convinced and believe there is a complete demise of fur trapping during the next 10+ years or so, I'm going to keep on humping it to the finish line. While working throughout my career, I prepared for the peaks and valleys of the fur market during retirement but there is nothing you can do to prepare yourself for a complete loss of market except pack it all away for the estate sale.

My doctors and bone/joint surgeon have all told me that my trapping has been a super thing for my body(heart-joints) and to keep doing what I'm doing as long as I can. If my trapping ever goes away before I'm done maybe I'll have to buy a couple of Speedos and get a membership in some exercise joint and show'em what an old trapper's got eh!!. Weeelll, maybe not.


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## Patrickr

I'm in the same boat as Seldom, just a little younger, and I already attend one of those gyms. No old trappers in Speedos, lol, to knowledge but no shortage of eye candy at the right time periods. 

My doctors have all told me to slow down as needed but to keep on trapping and hunting as long as I can physically take it. I will to, be it for fur for the international markets, for my own self consumption, or for the wildlife damage management industry. At the very least there will always be a limited market for select wild furs for the wild fur market, and there will always be a need for nuisance trappers provided we can limit the role the federal and state governments take. To support that statement I just ordered 3 dozen more Sterling MJ500's and 3 Sterling MJ800's from Sterling Fur a couple of hours ago.


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## wicklundrh

Seldom said:


> Price of lure is going up as well as gas prices and it appears right now $70+/bbl of oil isn't going to make any difference by putting more $$ in the fur market. I'll be 72 when this trapping season starts and unless I'm totally convinced and believe there is a complete demise of fur trapping during the next 10+ years or so, I'm going to keep on humping it to the finish line. While working throughout my career, I prepared for the peaks and valleys of the fur market during retirement but there is nothing you can do to prepare yourself for a complete loss of market except pack it all away for the estate sale.
> 
> My doctors and bone/joint surgeon have all told me that my trapping has been a super thing for my body(heart-joints) and to keep doing what I'm doing as long as I can. If my trapping ever goes away before I'm done maybe I'll have to buy a couple of Speedos and get a membership in some exercise joint and show'em what an old trapper's got eh!!. Weeelll, maybe not.


There are a lot of us that will continue to do it despite what the market says. We might shift our focus or locations a little bit, but we will still do it. Hopefully we can pass on our love for it to continue it. I hate the old estate sales in some regards. Always means someone has given up. On the flip side, I can usually get some pretty good deals.


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## wicklundrh

Patrickr said:


> I'm in the same boat as Seldom, just a little younger, and I already attend one of those gyms. No old trappers in Speedos, lol, to knowledge but no shortage of eye candy at the right time periods.
> 
> My doctors have all told me to slow down as needed but to keep on trapping and hunting as long as I can physically take it. I will to, be it for fur for the international markets, for my own self consumption, or for the wildlife damage management industry. At the very least there will always be a limited market for select wild furs for the wild fur market, and there will always be a need for nuisance trappers provided we can limit the role the federal and state governments take. To support that statement I just ordered 3 dozen more Sterling MJ500's and 3 Sterling MJ800's from Sterling Fur a couple of hours ago.


Funny, I was just telling my dad that I had to put in an order for some new 4 coil traps. I guess some of us are just hard headed! He asked if I was going to trap any ***** this year. I asked him what he wanted to do. He is 73. Says it gives him something to do while I'm at work! I guess he feels the same way then. Gone are the days of being able to kneel down for long periods and make sets but he can sure run a **** line with some DP's!


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## furandhides

More from Terry Manley, NAFA agent and spokesperson, concerning the sale. "Raccoon are selling for a couple of bucks. Ranch mink sold for the cost of one weeks food in some cases, and almost all that sold did not bring production costs. If anyone can put a little whip cream on this then have a nice snack".


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## Waif

What the heck if anything is F.I.C.A. doing to generate/secure business in the commercial/industry trade today?


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## Patrickr

A couple of my more realistic agri business owners (farmers) want my wife and I to come trap **** starting in a couple of weeks. They generally lose between $2500 to $3500 worth of corn a year in their various fields. This is not counting what they lose to **** damage in their silage areas as well as their hay and straw barns. They are each willing to pay my wife and I up to $2000 to trap their **** this summer. Easy, profitable, and fun if we manage it properly. Plus I can still trap for fur this fall. Now all we need are about 50 more agri businesses like that to hire us and we are good to go. I have several agri business owners that realize trapping is a business just like farming; they are both enjoyable ways of making a livelihood, but if there is no financial incentive in it why do it at all? 

You have to be able to find the opportunities in every bad/tough situation. I found my whip cream.


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## furandhides

Yeah. I know many ADC guys. Good friend just started with Critter Control, Traverse City office. Business is booming in ADC. The good news as a consequence of the poor $$ market.


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## FREEPOP

IMO, the best thing about **** is, they get me many opportunities to trap on land that I may otherwise not.


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## micooner

Woo hoo. Was getting ready to sell ol drum and dogbox. Then today in the mailbox is my new ffg mag. 15 dollar xxxlg **** from the country buyer predicted. So everything is back off the market lol


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## Waif

micooner said:


> Woo hoo. Was getting ready to sell ol drum and dogbox. Then today in the mailbox is my new ffg mag. 15 dollar xxxlg **** from the country buyer predicted. So everything is back off the market lol


That F.F.G. isn't dated around late 1978 is it? 
It was about that time jumbo primes went from 50.00 to around 10.00. And my line was promptly pulled.


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## micooner

Waif said:


> That F.F.G. isn't dated around late 1978 is it?
> It was about that time jumbo primes went from 50.00 to around 10.00. And my line was promptly pulled.


I had to check the date twice and then check to make sure they weren't rerunning a 50 year old article. I also made sure i had my reading glasses on. Lol


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## furandhides

Nice knowing that at least someone will be targeting **** this Fall. TREED!! LOL


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## furandhides

Oil $$ falling. New sanctions on Russia cause the ruble to tumble. BBC World News tonight, segment on tough economic times for most people in Russia. Conditions expected to worsen, with additional sanctions to kick in. Huge supplies of unsold ranch mink, the result of poor clearances at recent auctions. An Armageddon type sale at NAFA in July. Increasing problems with trade into China. Cattle hides at a five dollar bill. The leather market in the tank. Where's the good news?


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## furandhides

Summer goes by quickly. Kopenhagen Fur Sales inspection opened yesterday. The sale will begin on Sept. 1 and run thru Sept.11th. They will offer 7,700,000 mink, along with 56,000 ranch fox, and 25,000 curly lambskins.


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## BigJoe.

How much will this sale affect the fall prices? That is if there is a market this fall for wild fir.


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## furandhides

This sale is always the leading indicator as to the health and wellness of the fur industry. Everyone is watching. After spending 10 days at fur conventions, there is very little optimism coming out of any corner, as to any upturn on $$$ and interest in the near future. At this time last year, we were selling good quantities. Not so at this point in time. We will continue to be active in the market, and looking forward to the coming season.


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## wicklundrh

Figured this was the best place to post this. 

Another one succumed to the pressures:

https://upnorthlive.com/news/nation-world/burberry-to-drop-real-fur-and-stop-destroying-unsold-goods


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## furandhides

Sale achieved low clearances. Huge surplus to be carried over onto next sale. Supply exceeding demand.


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## furandhides

New tariffs on fur and leather going into effect. Hide market turning into a garbage collector mentality.


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## furandhides

Rumor has it that the hatter market for beaver fur felt is falling. As if it could get worse. Could be talking $5 ave. on beaver. Oct. and early Nov. red and gray foxes at very low $$, some talking a five. Ranch mink very cheap.


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## BigJoe.

Roger, has there been any recent talk about raccoon prices for this fall? That is if anyone will be buying them.


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## otterc

Bummer - I have 42 (over half extra dark and black) to put up yet. As soon as it cools down I will get to work


furandhides said:


> Rumor has it that the hatter market for beaver fur felt is falling. As if it could get worse. Could be talking $5 ave. on beaver. Oct. and early Nov. red and gray foxes at very low $$, some talking a five. Ranch mink very cheap.


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## furandhides

BigJoe. said:


> Roger, has there been any recent talk about raccoon prices for this fall? That is if anyone will be buying them.


 Our section is tough. Perhaps like last year. We will be buying the **** our trappers produce, very poor outlook for demand and $$. We are at a real bottom in the wild fur business.


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## Herb Boyd

Hello Roger...hope springs eternal in the fur business! Another complication is the sales of novelty items are at best below average: I attend big gun shows and the sale of tanned fur items has been nothing to brag about...there's no incentive to stock up on raw skins in most items, even at what's looking to be bargain prices. Trap sales have been good on eBay in areas that have the **** and coyote the market wants. The hatter situation seems related to the China trade...they are big producers of felt for hats and when they back off, look out: Also look at the situation with trappers in the South...they produce big numbers of beaver no matter what the price. When beaver skins are bought by the pound you know there's a problem: Also, there seems to be a shift away from beaver felt to other lower cost alternatives...not how Stetson has different percentages of beaver used in their lower priced hats, some as low as ten percent. Great to read your posts as always... get back to salting.


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## furandhides

Well said Herb. Good to have you back.


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## K-zoo

For those of you who sell to NAFA. I found this info on Trapperman.com
"Senior Management Changes at NAFA."

http://www.nafa.ca/senior-management-changes-nafa/


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## wicklundrh

I wonder if any of those guys have ever set a trap in their life? They sure did talk up their business side in their Bio?


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## furandhides

New order for 10,000 rats. Can use heavy ****, big sizes, all raw furs.


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## furandhides

Kopenhagen Fur concluded their first sale of the season last week. It appears as if less than 25% sold. Looks as if it will be up to NAFA to establish a ranch mink price basis at their upcoming Feb. sale. On a really plus side for wild fur, it appears to some that the muskrat $$ might become less tied to the $$ of brown ranch mink, could mean better $$in future. Growing interest in trim grade heavier ****. Talk of tariff reduction?? still in future. Not a lot really happening. Yotes have been hot on the western sales, $80-100 ave..


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## BigJoe.

Thanks for the update Roger. Any upswing no matter how small is always good. Remember, if you don't dream, you have nightmares!


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## furandhides

Just off the NAFA site. The rat sale is history. Wanted to await the results of this first international sale, prior to addressing the almost $5 ave. at the sale in KZOO. The results of the state sale make the rat sale at NAFA appear as a sale at the kids lemonade stand. The only explanation of the KZOO rat sale is the old "Queen for a day" syndrome. Phone the guy that bought the rats on the following Tues., and see what he is paying. LOL An auction ego trip, based on some sort of fantasy. On to reality.


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## 574mag

I sold through my club and got 3.50, most of the other guys that sold got 4, had one team that declined 4, said they had an offer for 5. And they had 900 rats. I was second to last through the auction and some of the buyers had left. Pays to get there sooner! Lol


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## Herb Boyd

Love that queen for a day quote...look for a pm soon....


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## furandhides

Thanks Herb. You're my inspiration here.


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## Herb Boyd

Also...hats off to all the trappers that cashed in on what looks like unrealistic prices compared to the almighty NAFA...and the few remaining country buyers, they played their cards right; Remember what they say at the casinos: It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money.


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## D550Trap

except for a couple of high dollar fur years. I have always averaged better at the state sales than at NAFA. when it comes to a True average on every thing.


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## 9

D550Trap said:


> except for a couple of high dollar fur years. I have always averaged better at the state sales than at NAFA. when it comes to a True average on every thing.


 The very opposite for me, I've always far exceeded the "true average" of ANY of the state sales selling through NAFA! More often then not, I've exceeded NAFA's average on all species of animals I've trapped except beaver.


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## furandhides

Rats at NAFA. 98% sold. Ave.$3.59 before comm.. LOL What a freakin' joke.


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## Patrickr

The overall average is deceiving. We don't know the quality of all the rats or other furs up there. I know of a couple of guys from southern MI that sent all of their rats, a few hundred, up to NAFA and their average, for what has sold, is just a hair under $5. Apparently the quality of their fur, and their put up has their average way above the overall average. Their top rats brought $15. The trappers in question did not jump out there on opening day just because season was open and they had to get them before somebody else did. No they waited until Thanksgiving weekend then trapped hard for about 10 days before going after prime heavy coyotes. They produced what the market wanted; prime rats and coyotes.

How many trappers that shipped all of their coyotes to NAFA saw a marked difference between their October and early November coyotes and their coyotes that were caught after Thanksgiving until the first of January?

As producers we have to start producing what the market wants and needs, not produce what the market doesn't want just because season is open and the weather and access to the animals is easier for us. Trapping for fur and animals damage management is not a recreational activity, it is not a sport, it is part of an industry; a commercial industry that is rapidly changing. We have to adapt or become extinct.


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## 9

Absolutely another great reply Patrickr loaded with commonsense AND sage advice!


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## Urriah

Spot on Patrickr. Especially as competition is waning, it would really benefit folks to be a little more strategic instead of just massing numbers.


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## Steve

Gentlemen. I just cleaned up this thread. Please show some respect for each other or I will close and delete the thread.


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## Patrickr

I would like to clarify for the record that in the portion of my post that was deleted I WAS NOT saying that Roger is dishonest, nor was I implying that. I do not personally know Roger. For all I know Roger could be a saint. And for the record, I would like to say that I have never met a dishonest country fur buyer. But I have met hundreds, if not thousands, of fur producers who have no idea (ignorance) how the various levels of the wild fur industry operate or why. In the portion of my post that was deleted I was offering him an opportunity to educate the readers in an honest factual manner (especially the new guys who don't know how the fur industry works) how country buyers at his level operate and why. If I gave readers a wrong impression of what I was saying or why for that I am truly sorry.


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## furandhides

Patrickr said:


> I would like to clarify for the record that in the portion of my post that was deleted I WAS NOT saying that Roger is dishonest, nor was I implying that. I do not personally know Roger. For all I know Roger could be a saint. And for the record, I would like to say that I have never met a dishonest country fur buyer. But I have met hundreds, if not thousands, of fur producers who have no idea (ignorance) how the various levels of the wild fur industry operate or why. In the portion of my post that was deleted I was offering him an opportunity to educate the readers in an honest factual manner (especially the new guys who don't know how the fur industry works) how country buyers at his level operate and why. If I gave readers a wrong impression of what I was saying or why for that I am truly sorry.


 I'm not buying this. I have moved to have the thread removed in its entirety. Perhaps some of you remember my blog "Saturday Night at the Fur House", that ran for a number of years on the MTA website. We had positive response from trappers across the country, and had thousands of hits. When the blog was deleted, due to similar hijacking, it comprised hundreds of pages, and reads as a book. I enjoyed doing it, and it was unfortunate that it had to be discontinued. At any rate, even if the thread is not deleted, I will no longer be posting on the report. It's dead. The thread was one of the most successful on any of the forums, having amassed 10's of thousands of hits. Unfortunately, a few members, out of jealousy , hate, whatever, have ended it. Perhaps Patrick or Seldom can begin a new thread of their own, and report to the trappers on the forum. The rest of this is not over, and I have already initiated professional counsel.


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## Herb Boyd

I hope it's not the end...too much valuable info was posted, fur industry has enough problems: Consider the positive impact you had Roger.


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## Steve

furandhides said:


> I'm not buying this. I have moved to have the thread removed in its entirety. Perhaps some of you remember my blog "Saturday Night at the Fur House", that ran for a number of years on the MTA website. We had positive response from trappers across the country, and had thousands of hits. When the blog was deleted, due to similar hijacking, it comprised hundreds of pages, and reads as a book. I enjoyed doing it, and it was unfortunate that it had to be discontinued. At any rate, even if the thread is not deleted, I will no longer be posting on the report. It's dead. The thread was one of the most successful on any of the forums, having amassed 10's of thousands of hits. Unfortunately, a few members, out of jealousy , hate, whatever, have ended it. Perhaps Patrick or Seldom can begin a new thread of their own, and report to the trappers on the forum. The rest of this is not over, and I have already initiated professional counsel.


We are under no obligation to just delete a thread because you don't like it anymore.


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## Sparky23

Damn lol....dunno what was said. I see points that were here on both sides but a little thicker skin needs to be used fishing and hunting is one thi g but trappers need to stick together more than anyone. How bout as a generalization for prices suck wether it was 4.99 avg. Which I also doubt or 3.49. It sucks. Furnhides you seem to give a lot of useful input dont let one guy who also has a lot of useful input ruin your help. One thing about older trappers I've learned is many are always right many of us are like that including me and I'm not even old. I take advice and give it but have learn to have thicker skin and sometimes just drop it.


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## Petronius

Sparky23 said:


> Damn lol....dunno what was said. I see points that were here on both sides but a little thicker skin needs to be used fishing and hunting is one thi g but trappers need to stick together more than anyone. How bout as a generalization for prices suck wether it was 4.99 avg. Which I also doubt or 3.49. It sucks. Furnhides you seem to give a lot of useful input dont let one guy who also has a lot of useful input ruin your help. One thing about older trappers I've learned is many are always right many of us are like that including me and I'm not even old. I take advice and give it but have learn to have thicker skin and sometimes just drop it.


How can he drop it now? He's already "initiated professional counsel". I see this becoming a soap opera.


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