# Hunting guide permits



## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

I don't see the unreasonableness of this either. It only make sense to issue permits for commercial operations. When they are conducted on public land. 

I can't comment on the amount of insurance guides will be required to carry. But, I think of insurance. Like I think of guns. It's better to have one, and not need it. Then to need one, and not have it.

Good luck on the draw everyone!


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## Jowdones (Feb 21, 2007)

I can't believe anyone would not want to have insurance when guiding armed strangers in potentially hazardous conditions. You are asking for big trouble in a highly litigious society. $300,000 coverage is not enough - it needs to be a minimum of $1,000,000. . Everyone who guides has it -just ask charter fisherman or river guides. I was able to get waterfowl guiding coverage, as well as cover my entire lure business, for $950 per year through White Insurance Agency (Fremont or Grant). I also recommend having a lawyer draft a "Holds Harmless" agreement.


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## duster (Jul 30, 2008)

Reading over the documents on the DNR's website, it looks to me that hunting guides are not required to carry insurance.

Toward the bottom of page 2, it lists hunting guides as not needing insurance. Here is a link to the web page:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/landuseinsuranceform_228063_7.pdf


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

The paper I recieved says insurance is required, minimum $300,000.

I dont know what insurance will cost yet, But I dont think the requirments and fees are too bad. The problem comes in for people (like us) who only do bear hunts for a few hunters as more of a hobby/activity, Than as an occupation. There is a limit to how much cost's you can pass on when its only divided amoung a few hunters.

Basically it comes down to expanding or getting out. The decision would be easier to make if we knew what the rules where going to be. For instance, will there be a limit on the number of hunters?, Bait sites?, Will guides have exclusive assigned areas?.

It seems backwards to have to buy into it without knowing the rules first......At this point I would say we are done, at least until we have some idea of what the rules of the game are.


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## AllForTheGreen (Apr 26, 2011)

da Appleknocker said:


> I hope Gov. Snyder hears about this unreasonable regulation.


I think Snyder's a little busy potentially being kicked out of the government.


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

STOP!!!!!!!! DON'T GET YOUR INSURANCE YET (if you don't want it). 

I just got off the phone with Brenda at the DNR and she said for a second year in a row, there will be the no fee use permit for 2011 just like it was in 2010. This just changed today and there will be a new letter coming out soon (she is stuffing the envelopes tomorrow). 

This was brought on by a bunch of concerned guides whom have stated that the notice time given to obtain the insurance was way too short, so the DNRE is actively trying to help us out here! 

Once they have a bit more info from this year, they will move forward with the insurances/etc. next year.


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

Hey Swamp Buck When did getting paid to do something become a hobby. I run My dogs on bear don't get paid its my hobby just like fishing or deer hunting. If your getting paid for a service I think its a job.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Welldriller, The last time we figured all of our expenses we made about $2.00 an hour on a $1000 hunt.


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## hubbarj (Jan 30, 2007)

srconnell22 said:


> STOP!!!!!!!! DON'T GET YOUR INSURANCE YET (if you don't want it).
> 
> I just got off the phone with Brenda at the DNR and she said for a second year in a row, there will be the no fee use permit for 2011 just like it was in 2010. This just changed today and there will be a new letter coming out soon (she is stuffing the envelopes tomorrow).
> 
> ...


The MDNR doesn't really have a choice in the matter. State land use regulations are set by legislation. If they don't abide by these laws it will bite them. I know the fact that they aren't following through has already been brought to the attention of a few legislators. I think it is funny that guides feel they shouldn't have to pay for something that every other business has to. My company has to carry $1,000,000 coverage to work on state and federal lands. It is a cost of doing business. All I here is we don't making enough money already. My advice to you is find a new line of work. If you do it for a hobby guess what hobbies cost money too mine seem to cost more every year but I deal with it. Income reporting is going to be the next thing that will become an issue. I know some guides are reporting income but the majority of them are flying under the radar. It will be fun to hear the reasoning behind this argument.


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

iPhone sent before done. Sorry


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

Just had a court case in Houghton County in mid-March. An employee of a guide service came to my place of employment and invited me to observe. I was leaving to APA breed days so a friend went to observe. The former employee was suing for mileage. The employee reported to the court that the owner of the guide service promised mileage in addition to the ten dollars an hour he was paid. The judge's opinion was that the "employee" was an independent contractor although he was paid by the LLC and provided bait by the employer. An interesting precedent. If employees are independent contractors then they should have to follow the rules whatever they are. That would include s separate guides license for each person. There is lots to this court case so I won't go into it. I do agree that permits are for individuals. Seems like the court did too, although this was a civil case.


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

It is a touchy standard for the IRS.

This link leads to more information on 1099's.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179115,00.html


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

One more thought on 1099 workers.

If I hired that way, I am still responsible for that work being up to code.

They in fact would just be working under my license.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Just like most every other "profession" guides should be licensed through the Department of Commerce...and MDNR should be regulating how they operate their business when it is being conducted on state land. It seems odd guiding business' are receiving special treatment no other business in the state enjoys.


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

Welldriller, I can't hunt on your hunting license. In fact when the when the 12 bait rule was agreed upon( I was at the meeting). That was per guide. So perhaps this is good that the insurance thing is getting tabled until next year. That way the rest rest of the rules can be deciphered. 12 baits per guide, not employee!


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## stagliano (Nov 10, 2006)

swampbuck said:


> Welldriller, The last time we figured all of our expenses we made about $2.00 an hour on a $1000 hunt.


If there is no economy in something, quit or raise your prices. State regulation of hunting guides is very reasonable.


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

Bearboy said:


> Welldriller, I can't hunt on your hunting license. In fact when the when the 12 bait rule was agreed upon( I was at the meeting). That was per guide. So perhaps this is good that the insurance thing is getting tabled until next year. That way the rest rest of the rules can be deciphered. 12 baits per guide, not employee!
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


LOL.....

I was talking about MY drilling business.


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

I am making a point. JMO that a guide license is an professional license, not a business license. A doctor, lawyer, mechanic or whomever is providing a service has that type of license. A business is quite different. Each indivual guiding should have a license to guide. This protects the general public and the resource. A felon cannot handle a gun. Certain game violations revoke hunting and fishing privleges.


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

Bearboy said:


> I am making a point. JMO that a guide license is an professional license, not a business license. A doctor, lawyer, mechanic or whomever is providing a service has that type of license. A business is quite different. Each indivual guiding should have a license to guide. This protects the general public and the resource. A felon cannot handle a gun. Certain game violations revoke hunting and fishing privleges.


Got ya.....

The State of Michigan regulates who drills holes in the earth to the aquifer and provides drinking water too.


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## Steve White (Oct 8, 2009)

I just cannot understand why there is a problem with having insurance. It would just be stupid to not want to protect everything you have worked for from some city slicker that trips over a leaf in the woods. Gets a little scratch and wants to sue you for it. I have been self employed and a guide for over 20yrs. Have always had insurance. It's just another expense(not a write off technically). I still have my hunting clients sign a waiver, or exculpatory agreement as added protection. Still a crafty lawyer can find a way to sue you!

The whole subcontractor thing is a very grey area. The rules set on it can go either way. Technically if you tell someone when to start work(set hours) they can be classified as an employee. One of the best ways to protect yourself with this. Is to require them to also carry liability insurance. Also having them sign a sub contractor agreement with you. A little no compete clause is always an added bonus as well. Been through the ringer on this once before. With a sub that worked for me. That after a few years of not paying his taxes. Thought he could claim he was an employee in order for me to pay part of it. Having these protections sure helped it go my way!

There are lots of restrictions put on a business owner by government and corporations. That many have no clue about. Costs that come right off the top before you make a nickel. One I can never understand. Is being required to carry workmens comp to to do business with some companies. When in my case the policy does not cover me, or any one for that matter. Just a piece of paper that costs a bunch! 

Never sat and tried to figure out exactly what it costs me to put a guy in the woods. I do know that it costs me $65 to drop my boat in the water on average. That's not wear and tear on gear or equipment. Just fuel, and insurance costs. 

Having to spend more money I know really sucks. Still I wish WI would follow suit in the requirements. Actually would like to see stiffer laws. Having requirements more like a captains license. Basic navigation, first aid, CPR. Much stiffer penalties for not following the rules. Here it costs just $40 to get a license. No other requirements. Then it's only a $100 fine for not having one. Very little enforcement is done unless dealing with the feds. Most state and federal laws clearly state you are guiding if there is any type of compensation. Be it money, trade, barter, or otherwise. This means even receiving a cup of coffee is guiding. A few WI wardens have told me they plan to crack down on more this year on this. As they continue to receive complaints. Especially on the out of staters that are guiding in WI. I for one hope they do. 

A lot of other laws are starting to be enforced or added as well. Look at the DOT rules being enforced now in MI. Wi may follow suit for the revenue. WI just started requiring almost all contractors to be licensed. With a potential penalty to homeowners of $5000 for using an unlicensed contractor. Many changes are to continue to come with our government being broke. Just like the rest of us! Is it any wonder why it's so hard for a business to keep the doors open. 

Myself like others here that own and operate their own buisness. This will really have little affect on. As most of this stuff is already in place. Those that are just now having to put stuff in place. Well, welcome to the real world. Wait till all the other state and federal requirements start getting put in effect to it. All the taxes, regulations, safety things. Oh Lord, it makes my head hurt thinking of what we have to deal with!!!! Can just imagine what a well driller has to deal with! Scares me to think about it!!! I can see it already. Having to have OSHA approved treestands:yikes::yikes:


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Just for clarification, THERE IS NO GUIDE LICENSE. What you are paying for is a land use permit.

I have no problem with the fees or insurance requirement. The cost of the insurance is an lssue, But that has nothing to do with the DNR. 

The only issue I have is that they should state the Rules BEFORE we have to pay for the permit.

For instance 12 baits at 3 per hunter= 4 hunters and a $400 increase in price per hunter......I just wonder what the market will bear.

In our case we only do 2 preferably or 3 max per year so the increase would be higher. And we only do friends and family or referal so the desire is not there to drain their bank account or take a bunch of strangers to cover the cost.

I think there are a lot of "guides" in the same position, And I would expect most to quit. The biggest loss will be to the hunters.


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## Steve White (Oct 8, 2009)

swampbuck said:


> The biggest loss will be to the hunters.


That is going to be very true. There are many that feel guiding should be eliminated. That guides kill all the bear. Still not everyone has the ability to put the time into scouting a location far from home. So from a financial standpoint it makes sense to hire a guide. Now costs go up, and more folks try to go it alone. So what happens? Maybe they don't fill their tag at worst. BUT, now you got guys that are going to try their hardest anyway. Going to drive up plop a bait in the woods, and hope for the best. NOW HERE IS THE CONFLICT! These guys are not going to have put the time in scouting. So they end up setting up right next to someone else. God help us if it is a hound hunter. They did not know, but there is now conflict as a result. Who looses the hunter. 

Perhaps it will go the way it has in WI. Where the hunter looses as well. As guys try to circumvent the law offering free guided hunts. You just pay for gas and bait, the guiding is free. Under the law it is still guiding, but they try it. Which is why there is a need for stricter regulation. So that if you are going to offer a free hunt it is just that free!! Then at least the hunter may know what they are getting themselves into. There is a difference between a professional, and a weekend warrior. SO again with the lines blurred the hunter looses!!

If I was going to hire someone to do a job of any kind. I would want a professional doing it. 

In the end it does not matter what business you are in. The same rule applies. You have to spend the money to make it.


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

Out west don't they have to do a test or something to guide? The prices the guides in Michigan Charge are peanuts compared to other places, just look on the Internet. For elk some told me they paid 500.00 dollars for the season or until they killed thier elk. Other places it cost 4000.00to 8000.00. Guides should have insurance, they are crazy not to, it only takes once to lose everything.

Maybe the state shouldn't mandate it but its only common sense to have it. I don't think anyone running a business likes to be forced to buy anything there to independent me included. Sometimes change is hard just raise your prices to cover it.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Outfitter/guides operating in any of the 3 national forests in the U.P are now required to apply for a Special Use Permit, 3% of the revenue earned goes back to USFS, and they are required to carry $500,000 in liability insurance naming USFS as co-insured. Its their standard policy.


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## Michigan Beagler®© (Aug 31, 2014)

do they consider it a business if you just take small groups? I run hounds, and lots of times friends will bring others a long on a rabbit or pheasant hunt, do I need a permit to do this too? if so I'll get one most of the time my friends slip me gas money I never charge for the hunts. But I want to be legal!


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Michigan Beagler®© said:


> do they consider it a business if you just take small groups? I run hounds, and lots of times friends will bring others a long on a rabbit or pheasant hunt, do I need a permit to do this too? if so I'll get one most of the time my friends slip me gas money I never charge for the hunts. But I want to be legal!



I believe it is if you take compensation for it.


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