# Why are Hunter numbers dropping.



## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Back in 70s ,80s,90s hunter numbers were very high threw out the state. Buck poles hung heavy with big bucks . And in some areas lots of does also. Hunting was viewed as a simple thing by most , everyone I knew looked forward to opening day of gun. Nobody that I knew was obsessed by big bucks , even though we all hoped we would get a crack at one,( And usually did). Flash forward to today, Hunting for bigger bucks is the norm, guys have made hunting complicated to say the least. Alot of guys look down on someone who gun hunts or shoot smaller bucks. Camps are fading away , people are dropping out at a astonishing pace. Why do you think this is happening. I don't want to hear ,they don't have the time to hunt. I worked 2 jobs at the same time, raised my family and still hunted. So what's up ?


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

Rather than list the myriad of socio-economic factors contributing to declining hunting participation I would post a different question: _Do we really think the answer to what ails hunting is more hunters? _

Currently the dollars flow from volume license sales. Quantity. Should that be our objective? Should we value the amount of participants? Why not the quality of participants? Or the quality of hunting? Those ideas often seem to be at odds with eachother, especially in practice. 

Do we think that hunting as we previously remembered it is sustainable while trying to keep recruitment numbers at the same level? Should that even be our goal? Why shouldn't we promote and desire a quality hunting experience versus a quantity one?


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

What's your definition of a quality hunt ?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Just a drifting away from the sport that clashes with cement and glass and the electronic familiarity of today's passive society maybe.
Less an ingrained habit of environment demonstrated among adults/right of passage among youths interests.

Rural lives tend to be more conscious of what's going on around it, by exposure year round.
Seeing deer in a suburb can arouse interest but is not quite the same as taking inventory/scouting.
That does not mean urban sprawl (and declining bigger tracts of habitat) equals more participation in hunting.
Some folks could care less. Others take offense. Others are ignorant till they hit a deer with a car or spot a bear, panic and dial 911.
Others don't know (or want to know) their neighbors . Or their neighbors land.

Kids don't always keep tabs on their families hobbies.
Dad golfing does not mean Jr. has any interest. (Good boy Jr...)

Hunting camp an annual event for Grandpa means little to a kid who does not go ,or hunt, or see a deer except wrapped packages in Gramp's freezer.
Those dead ones along the road do not look too inviting. 
Guns and bloody knives are not encouraged in society. (What is it , 5% of Americans hunt?)

Kids on bikes with fishing rods on jaunts are likely to fish. Partly depending on success ,but more on the environment of being outside. By choice. Drawn for some reason , out the door.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Parents are no longer taking their kids like they used to. It is not a priority in families as it once was. There is a very active anti-hunting drum beat, pushing the idea that hunting, and owning guns, is bad and only bad people do those things. Playing indoors has replaced outdoor activities and hunting is some that does not lend itself to the idea of instant gratification.


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## Dale Malusi (Oct 27, 2018)

*Why not the quality of participants?*
Each and every free citizen of these United States has the right to participate in Michigans' hunting and fishing regardless of the quality of their being. License sales are to the public, without exceptions.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

stickbow shooter said:


> What's your definition of a quality hunt ?


Going to ignite some sparks with this one but here goes... (Remember this is all coming from a selfish, inner-child space)

Less hunters, less crowding of private and public parcels, more opportunity at mature game animals in state... 

Ok, fire is lit. Now let's burn the house down.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

Dale Malusi said:


> *Why not the quality of participants?*
> Each and every free citizen of these United States has the right to participate in Michigans' hunting regardless of the quality of their being. License sales are to the public, without exceptions.
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


I never said deny opportunity to participate. I asked if we should want/desire a high volume of participants to meet our goals.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

The spike in hunters in the 70s was due to Holless Wilber Allen’s invention. Along with training wheels on bows came baiting to lure deer in closer plus tree stand usage. Baiting then carried over into other seasons as well. The muzzleloader season hunter number jump was caused by the in-line rifle. Both inventions made it much easier to kill a deer at longer distances. 

The popularity of the 4 wheel ATV also made things much easier to haul bait and hunters greater distances. Now there are way more choices to occupy ones time. Food has never been easier to obtain plus income is much higher than it used to be opening up even more changes. What we have is the new norm, get used to it. 

I miss the old deer camp lifestyle the most. If I had to do it all over again I would, no regrets.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

There was no baiting in PA and hunter numbers were higher than now. That was not a factor in PA.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

d_rek said:


> Going to ignite some sparks with this one but here goes... (Remember this is all coming from a selfish, inner-child space)
> 
> Less hunters, less crowding of private and public parcels, more opportunity at mature game animals in state...
> 
> Ok, fire is lit. Now let's burn the house down.


Hey I'm not going to flame you, thanks for the honest reply. I have never gauged wether a hunt was quality or not. ( Just not my way of thinking). I view every time I get to go out a blessing. So I guess there all quality hunts for me lol.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

stickbow shooter said:


> Hey I'm not going to flame you, thanks for the honest reply. I have never gauged wether a hunt was quality or not. ( Just not my way of thinking). I view every time I get to go out a blessing. So I guess there all quality hunts for me lol.


I hear you. Quality is different for everyone. And I’m not saying my hunts are inherently bad because of the things I identified either. 

I think it’s an important question worth asking moving forward though that if quantity alone can sustain the quality of our hunts? 


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## Rowdy Bandit (Mar 22, 2016)

Greed and corruption. The almighty buck. Politicians selling off the country, NAFTA, employer's exploitation of section 101(a)(15)(H) and the H-1B visa, the corrupt banking system and banks, ...

I get the impression many folks have chosen to forget the vast numbers who lost their homes and livelihoods recently, especially since 2006. A lot of people gone from Michigan never to return.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

I don't chime in here much, I don't deer hunt, I know sacriligious. Anyways, this is a problem that exists in other outdoor pursuits as well and has been discussed in the fishing arena as well.

It's really hard to put a finger on it, but I don't really thing it is any ONE thing, but rather a multitude of sins, if you will. I will do my best here to give a little insight as to the possibilities but make no mistake, I'm not expert, but just a casual observer.

1) Can't hunt on video games. It seems the age of technology has replace the age of reality, by that I mean that the generation that is coming up has no drive to learn any practical experience such as hunting and fishing, at least in the majority.

2) Regulations- this covers not only hunting, but fishing as well. I don't think APR's are a way to advance hunter participation numbers, especially new hunters. Let's say a hunter comes out for the first time, see's a couple of deer but they don't qualify under APR's? The next year he/she comes back, only to have the same problem happen. After a certain amount of time, they get discouraged and quit and go back to their X-Box, or whatever.

3) The way the newer generations are being taught, why would you think they would think hunting, or fishing is cool? Think about it, they are taught that animals have feelings like you and I, they have rights, like you and I. This generation is having the critical thinking processed right out them. 

As I stated, the same problem exists in fishing, angler numbers that is. We can agree, or dis-agree with the root problem, the real question is, how do we fix it? It's not gonna be easy especially when you have more and more people anti-gun, or anti animal cruelty, but somehow it can be done. Thats just my take on the issue, and frankly, I have no good idea of how to fix it. Suffice it to say, it HAS to start with the younger generation, but how to get around some of these parents to let them allow their kids to try hunting, or fishing, good luck with that.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

toto said:


> I don't chime in here much, I don't deer hunt, I know sacriligious. Anyways, this is a problem that exists in other outdoor pursuits as well and has been discussed in the fishing arena as well.
> 
> It's really hard to put a finger on it, but I don't really thing it is any ONE thing, but rather a multitude of sins, if you will. I will do my best here to give a little insight as to the possibilities but make no mistake, I'm not expert, but just a casual observer.
> 
> ...


I agree with you.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I'll use the sacred youth hunt as a example. Kids are brought up being able to shoot unpressured bucks feeding in open areas. Easy peasy. When time comes for them to actually go out and hunt like the rest of us. Now it's tuff, many are use to getting nice bucks . How many stop hunting after this ?.


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## Osceola (Jul 21, 2016)

d_rek said:


> Rather than list the myriad of socio-economic factors contributing to declining hunting participation I would post a different question: _Do we really think the answer to what ails hunting is more hunters? _
> 
> Currently the dollars flow from volume license sales. Quantity. Should that be our objective? Should we value the amount of participants? Why not the quality of participants? Or the quality of hunting? Those ideas often seem to be at odds with eachother, especially in practice.
> 
> Do we think that hunting as we previously remembered it is sustainable while trying to keep recruitment numbers at the same level? Should that even be our goal? Why shouldn't we promote and desire a quality hunting experience versus a quantity one?


I generally agree with your sentiments. Less hunters is not necessarily a bad thing. It's often portrayed as bad because it means less money for state agencies to use for conservation and management. Meh.

The biggest problem with fewer hunters is over-population of game. Fewer hunters need to shoot more deer to keep the herd balanced, but I for one have no need or desire to shoot ten deer each season. Mother Nature will have to balance the herd the ugly way...disease, starvation, etc.


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## fishnpbr (Dec 2, 2007)

The reasons are probably varied and complex for the decline in hunter numbers. Everyone has their own opinion as to why. I don't think any one thing in particular has a greater significance than another, more likely a combination of factors. Baiting, antlers or lack thereof, economics, broken homes, social values, deer numbers, job demands, regulations, age, leases and certainly others.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> I'll use the sacred youth hunt as a example. Kids are brought up being able to shoot unpressured bucks feeding in open areas. Easy peasy. When time comes for them to actually go out and hunt like the rest of us. Now it's tuff, many are use to getting nice bucks . How many stop hunting after this ?.


Hope you got a seat belt in that chair.


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## ratherboutside (Mar 19, 2010)

My guess would be demographic changes in the population in michigan as well as the us. Rural school districts have been shrinking while suburban school districts get larger. Additionally, the percentage of people who grew up on farms is steadily falling I believe. What was once 10 family farms is not 1 giant farm. I really dont think this is a revearsable issue. 

Anecdotally, all my family members who grew up on the farms or around the farms (we had several in the family) hunt. The ones that grew up in the suburbs, dont. Parents only have so much influence. Kids want to hang out with friends. If 2% of a school hunts, it is unlikely the children will show much interest. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

Luv2hunteup said:


> View attachment 403041
> 
> 
> You do realize that 88% of hunters in the Independence Hunt do not shoot a buck of any kind? If everyone of those hunters dropped out it would still be a very small number. I highly doubt that those who do shoot a big buck drop out.
> ...


Now now don't go mucking this up with things like 'statistics'...


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## Scadsobees (Sep 21, 2006)

Trout King said:


> Why? The boomers are aging out and the newer generations are too busy staring at their wireless devices and caring about stupid s*** like eating tidepods.


^^^^^ WHAT HE SAID! Maybe not so much on the tidepods , but it's easier to sit on a forum looking at pictures and videos of deer and fish than it is getting out and doing it. My boys watch tons of videos about fishing and how to catch them, but when I ask them where we should go and how to fish for what...then it's a different story.

Same reason that there are very few issues now days that aren't polarizing.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

skipper34 said:


> What bothers me the most is those individuals who claim that deer hunting is a right. No, it is a privilege. Far too many on this forum forget that fact.


Sorry but it's my God given right to hunt. Genesis 27:3


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## Osceola (Jul 21, 2016)

skipper34 said:


> What bothers me the most is those individuals who claim that deer hunting is a right. No, it is a privilege. Far too many on this forum forget that fact.


Your post got me thinking about whether it really is a right or a privilege.

I think we've already established through legal precedent that deer themselves, the natural resource, belong to the people, so from that standpoint, every citizen has a right to them. We voluntarily submit to their management by government agencies in order to promote and conserve the resource. While I am sympathetic to your sentiments about some people having an entitlement mentality, in this case I think they really are entitled unless they feel their entitlement extends to breaking game laws. No one has the right to disobey game management laws.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I probably shouldn't have mentioned the youth hunt , it's a very hot topic.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

stickbow shooter said:


> I probably shouldn't have mentioned the youth hunt , it's a very hot topic.


Charts/graphs? Muahaha.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

skipper34 said:


> What bothers me the most is those individuals who claim that deer hunting is a right. No, it is a privilege. Far too many on this forum forget that fact.


When I bought enough property to hunt, my right was officially etched. 
Wink wink. 


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

The state of Michigan, as well as all other states that allow hunting, gives us the privilege of hunting.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Pretty sad state of affairs when we don't have the "right" to hunt for our own food. Michigan has been trying to pass an amendment to the state constitution to protect hunting and fishing, but it has not passed. It likely never will with the state being controlled by anti's, both in the general population and the highest state offices.

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/here...have-a-constitutional-right-to-hunt-and-fish/


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## Osceola (Jul 21, 2016)

skipper34 said:


> The state of Michigan, as well as all other states that allow hunting, gives us the privilege of hunting.


As I explained, that's technically not true. It would be true if the government owned the deer, but it doesn't.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> I probably shouldn't have mentioned the youth hunt , it's a very hot topic.


Youth hunt should be a apr only 5 a side.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

jr28schalm said:


> Youth hunt should be a apr only 5 a side.


Port side only, none on the starboard side, no broken tines and they must have ivory colored tips.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

DecoySlayer said:


> Port side only, none on the starboard side, no broken tines and they must have ivory colored tips.


That's to hard. We all can't walk up and kiss a buck like you PA hunters


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

That's your problem. Learn how. GEEZ, it's not my fault you have no real skill! (we don't kiss them, that would be perverted)


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

d_rek said:


> Rather than list the myriad of socio-economic factors contributing to declining hunting participation I would post a different question: _Do we really think the answer to what ails hunting is more hunters? _
> 
> Currently the dollars flow from volume license sales. Quantity. Should that be our objective? Should we value the amount of participants? Why not the quality of participants? Or the quality of hunting? Those ideas often seem to be at odds with eachother, especially in practice.
> 
> Do we think that hunting as we previously remembered it is sustainable while trying to keep recruitment numbers at the same level? Should that even be our goal? Why shouldn't we promote and desire a quality hunting experience versus a quantity one?


Quality and quantity are two sides of the same coin.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Luv2hunteup said:


> View attachment 403015


Your graph almost mirrors similar graphs I've seen detailing deer population fluctuations.


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## carpetbagger (Jun 12, 2015)

eye-sore said:


> Im still waiting patiently to see these decline in numbers everybody is talking about. Its definitely not occuring anywhere near me. Duck "hunters" are nuts to buts, the bay is busting at the seams with boats, and everywhere around me looks like a pumpkin patch every day of gun season


I concur. What the numbers say and what I actually see just don't add up! I know a lot of small parcel owners simply do not buy licenses anymore because the likelihood of them getting caught is miniscule.

Another factor, though, may be that a lot of large parcels of private land have been subdivided into smaller tracts of land or leased, making them less available to the general public. Liability laws also scare owners from granting permission as well.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

stickbow shooter said:


> I probably shouldn't have mentioned the youth hunt , it's a very hot topic.


The Independence Hunt is only ~2% of the annual kill. If the DNR would just move the opener of buck season to November 15th I doubt that it would hardly even be mentioned. Everyone's weapon of choice and age group would have equal opportunity if that happened. I can’t think of a reason why anyone would have a reason, that wasn’t selfish, complain.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

What liability laws? As far as I know land owners are, for the most part, protected against liability when they grant permission to hunt. I don't believe that law has been changed. 

Yes, number of duck hunters is down. Licence sales across the board are dropping. Hunters are being "condensed" into smaller areas, due to the inability to gain access to land.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

jr28schalm said:


> Youth hunt should be a apr only 5 a side.


How about all bucks have 7 pt per side APR for everyone? I could support that!


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Also, what county were they taken in? State or private land? Makes a HUGE difference there.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

toto said:


> I don't chime in here much, I don't deer hunt, I know sacriligious. Anyways, this is a problem that exists in other outdoor pursuits as well and has been discussed in the fishing arena as well.
> 
> It's really hard to put a finger on it, but I don't really thing it is any ONE thing, but rather a multitude of sins, if you will. I will do my best here to give a little insight as to the possibilities but make no mistake, I'm not expert, but just a casual observer.
> 
> ...


I disagree strongly with #2. Before APR's the same situation existed. You just saw doe after doe you couldn't shoot with maybe a sparkies mixed in. 



stickbow shooter said:


> I'll use the sacred youth hunt as a example. Kids are brought up being able to shoot unpressured bucks feeding in open areas. Easy peasy. When time comes for them to actually go out and hunt like the rest of us. Now it's tuff, many are use to getting nice bucks . How many stop hunting after this ?.


Might be something to this. It's all downhill after this.


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## Fool'em (Sep 29, 2016)

skipper34 said:


> What bothers me the most is those individuals who claim that deer hunting is a right. No, it is a privilege. Far too many on this forum forget that fact.


The ruling class would like you to believe that our very existence is based on privaledge handed out by government. 
Hunting is a right for all Americans. We bestow the task of management of the resource on the state thru our elected representatives. Acting under this authority the state can restrict some people’s right (ie: poachers) and set rules and regs that we agree to follow understanding that those we have hired to manage are acting in our collective best interest. 
A segment of the population is already supportive of giving up this right of ours and another non hunting segment of the population is rather indifferent or undecided. This is why numbers of participants matters. A right we were all born with can be given up and lost if enough people are convinced it’s OK

Take slavery for example, it was a right then enough people decided it should not be and that right was extinguished. I do not support slavery and agree with doing away with that right but there were many who wanted to keep that right. 
Some people out there view hunting with similar distain as we all view owning another human being. We cannot let that mindset become the majority or our right to hunt will be no more. 
The enemy of freedom (to hunt in this case) is inaction.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

Steve said:


> I disagree strongly with #2. Before APR's the same situation existed. You just saw doe after doe you couldn't shoot with maybe a sparkies mixed in.
> 
> Perhaps, but I'm only speculating and trying to come up with solutions. I didn't intend to bash APR's frankly I don't deer hunt so I don't care all that much, but I can see the argument against it more than for it, but let's save that for another day.
> 
> The point to my post was that the younger generation today doesn't look at things the way we did as a youth, at least as far as outdoor pursuits. Another case in point, Boy Scouts, and Girl Scouts, do they have the same numbers today as they had even say 10 years ago?? Why? Bet the answers would be surprisingly similar. Hands on stuff just doesn't interest the younger generations anymore. In a lot of cases the parents are too busy making their own lives as in trying to move up the corporate ladder or whatever so they don't take the time to get the youth outdoors. If the parents would spend as much time teaching our youth the "coolness" of being outdoors as they do about playing soccer or hockey or you choose the sport, perhaps the numbers would stay up there. Again, just trying to answer a difficult question as easily as possible.


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## eye-sore (Jan 7, 2012)

Who is to say the dnr isnt being truthful about the amount of licenses being sold???


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## old graybeard (Jan 19, 2006)

I think some of it comes from single parent families that don't introduce kids to the outdoor sports. I also think that the overall push for trophy bucks or nothing turns quite a few people away. How many stay in the sport if there isn't a monster buck behind every tree like they see on TV? Lack of a place to hunt doesn't help much either. Just my 2 cents.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

old graybeard said:


> I think some of it comes from single parent families that don't introduce kids to the outdoor sports. I also think that the overall push for trophy bucks or nothing turns quite a few people away. How many stay in the sport if there isn't a monster buck behind every tree like they see on TV? Lack of a place to hunt doesn't help much either. Just my 2 cents.



All of the above, and then some.


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

stickbow shooter said:


> Back in 70s ,80s,90s hunter numbers were very high threw out the state. Buck poles hung heavy with big bucks . And in some areas lots of does also. Hunting was viewed as a simple thing by most , everyone I knew looked forward to opening day of gun. Nobody that I knew was obsessed by big bucks , even though we all hoped we would get a crack at one,( And usually did). Flash forward to today, Hunting for bigger bucks is the norm, guys have made hunting complicated to say the least. Alot of guys look down on someone who gun hunts or shoot smaller bucks. Camps are fading away , people are dropping out at a astonishing pace. Why do you think this is happening. I don't want to hear ,they don't have the time to hunt. I worked 2 jobs at the same time, raised my family and still hunted. So what's up ?


 Baby boomers, who have driven Michigan's hunting numbers for decades, are aging and dropping out of the sport. And few younger people are taking their place. 

*Michigan hunting in major decline — why that matters*


https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...-hunting-big-decline-deer-fishing/1924497002/

.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> Baby boomers, who have driven Michigan's hunting numbers for decades, are aging and dropping out of the sport. And few younger people are taking their place.
> 
> *Michigan hunting in major decline — why that matters*
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting link.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Well, I think there are lots of little things that help contribute. I know this, through my life, whether it was deer hunting, partridge hunting, pheasant hunting, and salmon fishing, as populations of that game increased, so did hunter and fishermen numbers. Likewise, as they decreased, so the hunter and fishermen numbers.

Far as hunter numbers not being important, BS. When deer hunter numbers become so irrelevant as a percent to the masses (damn close now), don't expect to have the same hunting privileges. Also, as numbers decrease, the special interests gain in voice. All fine and dandy when it's your special interest winning, not so much when not.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> I probably shouldn't have mentioned the youth hunt , it's a very hot topic.


The youth is a good topic. After all it is part of the reason we have declining numbers. The reason for the youth hunt is to try to retain hunting numbers. You obviously aren't going to retain every youth. At the same time I dont buy into the theory that it hurts retention. Not really interested in arguing those points but I am going to take a different approach at what I think is wrong with the youth's lack of interest today....atleast maybe one factor.

When I was a kid the parents world didnt revolve around the happiness of a kid to the extent it does today. I had great parents that loved me and a great childhood..... but dad worked 6 days 3rd shift. Most of my family and neighbors had dads that worked long hrs. Kids were kind of forced to do with what they were given. Toys were less prevalent. Something like getting a bike was a huge deal and you wore the tread off the tires. I think kids craved the attention of adults far more than they do today. When dad and uncles went hunting it was a right of passages when you finally got to tag along. You desperately wanted to be be successful and be part of that crowd. The passion started there and grew immensely because you have those memories. You wanted to fit in with grown ups. You hung on to the drive to hunt because it was a big part of your life and some of your best memories. 

Today many kids have more toys than they could every play with. They got a new bike for every stage of their life and barely used them. Video games and social media allow them to connect with friends. Moms and dads both bend over backwards to take them wherever they want to go. If Johnny wants to go to the movies with friends every mom drives their kid and then picks them up. When I was a kid we spent hours trying to convince one parent to take a group of us to the movies. It was a real treat to do something like that. Kids today have so many Joy's in life that something like hunting doesnt have that same lasting effect that hunting did for us. 

It isnt just hunting licenses today's youth aren't buying they also dont get drivers licenses. They don't have a need when everything is provided. I dont see the same desire to be with dads, uncles and friends. They would rather hang with their own friends because they can so easily. 

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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> The youth is a good topic. After all it is part of the reason we have declining numbers. The reason for the youth hunt is to try to retain hunting numbers. You obviously aren't going to retain every youth. At the same time I dont buy into the theory that it hurts retention. Not really interested in arguing those points but I am going to take a different approach at what I think is wrong with the youth's lack of interest today....atleast maybe one factor.
> 
> When I was a kid the parents world didnt revolve around the happiness of a kid to the extent it does today. I had great parents that loved me and a great childhood..... but dad worked 6 days 3rd shift. Most of my family and neighbors had dads that worked long hrs. Kids were kind of forced to do with what they were given. Toys were less prevalent. Something like getting a bike was a huge deal and you wore the tread off the tires. I think kids craved the attention of adults far more than they do today. When dad and uncles went hunting it was a right of passages when you finally got to tag along. You desperately wanted to be be successful and be part of that crowd. The passion started there and grew immensely because you have those memories. You wanted to fit in with grown ups. You hung on to the drive to hunt because it was a big part of your life and some of your best memories.
> 
> ...


This makes perfect sense, thanks for your input.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I know I had to wait to go hunting with my uncle's. I read everything I could get my hands on about deer hunting. I use to practice with a old set of antlers he gave me. I would put them in the bushes or hide them in my grandma's flower garden. Then act like I was hunting. I would try and spot them from far away or close. Couldn't wait to get to go. Then when time came , I was one of the guys. Remember it like it was yesterday.


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## wolfe (Nov 9, 2011)

DirtySteve said:


> The youth is a good topic. After all it is part of the reason we have declining numbers. The reason for the youth hunt is to try to retain hunting numbers. You obviously aren't going to retain every youth. At the same time I dont buy into the theory that it hurts retention. Not really interested in arguing those points but I am going to take a different approach at what I think is wrong with the youth's lack of interest today....atleast maybe one factor.
> 
> When I was a kid the parents world didnt revolve around the happiness of a kid to the extent it does today. I had great parents that loved me and a great childhood..... but dad worked 6 days 3rd shift. Most of my family and neighbors had dads that worked long hrs. Kids were kind of forced to do with what they were given. Toys were less prevalent. Something like getting a bike was a huge deal and you wore the tread off the tires. I think kids craved the attention of adults far more than they do today. When dad and uncles went hunting it was a right of passages when you finally got to tag along. You desperately wanted to be be successful and be part of that crowd. The passion started there and grew immensely because you have those memories. You wanted to fit in with grown ups. You hung on to the drive to hunt because it was a big part of your life and some of your best memories.
> 
> ...


X100



Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Plumbgranny (Dec 26, 2010)

Can only comment on what I've observed and with all the technology and instant gratification these days, some have done the expected and gone to find their "fun" elsewhere. I also think that the pendulum eventually swings back. After an "empty" experience many will look to the outdoors and/or hunting to connect/reconnect with what we and many others already know. Nature is us fulfilling, it is us and we are it!
Already seeing and hearing this is happening. My belief is this is perfectly natural and how we are made...to enjoy outdoor LIFE. Do we need to be intentionally introducing newbies & youth to the opportunity...why would we not?


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

stickbow shooter said:


> So one reason is technology has replaced hunting, like gaming and social media. That does make sense and is sad at the same time.


An early post questioned if we are better off with fewer and better hunters. No. As more people become disengaged with hunting and fishing it will change public policy for the worse.

The decline in the number of hunters is just a facet of the larger change in how and why we use public space and interact. For those of you that can, which I suspect are most of those here, think back to the pre-cable TV world. At best there were three channels on TV, and probably nothing you wanted to watch. No VCR. No e-mail. Long distanced telephone calls were rare and expensive. No internet. No video games.

What did people do with their time? Most left there homes in part to cure boredom. They would visit neighbors, or_ go_ to movies, a bar, a bowling alley, a library, a pool hall, go shooting,_ hunting, fishing_, etc. We don't live that way anymore, and probably won't again. Hunting and fishing are just two of the casualties.

Regarding hunter retention starting kids hunting is only part of the solution. I suspect that my experience may be a common one. I hunted in Michigan from when I was old enough to legally do it until I left high school. I left home, moved out of state, and life happened, but no hunting. At age 32 I moved back to Michigan, and at 35 started hunting again on a DIY state land basis. Eventually I met other hunters, some of which I still hunt with.

The point is that recruitment probably has to happen a couple of times in a hunters life, and we hunters should have an eye open to the chances to do this.


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## Radar420 (Oct 7, 2004)

DirtySteve said:


> It isnt just hunting licenses today's youth aren't buying they also dont get drivers licenses. They don't have a need when everything is provided. I dont see the same desire to be with dads, uncles and friends. They would rather hang with their own friends because they can so easily.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Good point about the drivers license.

There was a study put out by UM several years ago trying to determine if motorization had peaked in the US. They looked at several different variables and one of them was the change over time in the number of youths getting drivers licenses. The study pointed out that in the not too distant past, getting a drivers license was seen as a right of passage. Now due to the prevalence of ride sharing companies many youths don't view it as important. I remember one youth was asked why he didn't have/want his license and his response was that it interferes with texting/facebook.


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

stickbow shooter said:


> Sorry but it's my God given right to hunt. Genesis 27:3


Then there's that seperation of church and state thing.



Fool'em said:


> Hunting is a right for all Americans. We bestow the task of management of the resource on the state thru our elected representatives. Acting under this authority the state can restrict some people’s right (ie: poachers) and set rules and regs that we agree to follow understanding that those we have hired to manage are acting in our collective best interest.


This statement contradicts itself. So game regs only restrict poachers? The rest just agree to follow the laws though it's their right not to? If you don't follow game laws your hunting _privileges _will be stripped. Try screaming "but it's my God given right as an American" and see what that gets you.


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## Rowdy Bandit (Mar 22, 2016)

DirtySteve said:


> The youth is a good topic. After all it is part of the reason we have declining numbers. The reason for the youth hunt is to try to retain hunting numbers. You obviously aren't going to retain every youth. At the same time I dont buy into the theory that it hurts retention. Not really interested in arguing those points but I am going to take a different approach at what I think is wrong with the youth's lack of interest today....atleast maybe one factor.
> 
> When I was a kid the parents world didnt revolve around the happiness of a kid to the extent it does today. I had great parents that loved me and a great childhood..... but dad worked 6 days 3rd shift. Most of my family and neighbors had dads that worked long hrs. Kids were kind of forced to do with what they were given. Toys were less prevalent. Something like getting a bike was a huge deal and you wore the tread off the tires. I think kids craved the attention of adults far more than they do today. When dad and uncles went hunting it was a right of passages when you finally got to tag along. You desperately wanted to be be successful and be part of that crowd. The passion started there and grew immensely because you have those memories. You wanted to fit in with grown ups. You hung on to the drive to hunt because it was a big part of your life and some of your best memories.
> 
> ...


Yes! That bike was also maintained as one borrowed tools to do so, and those punctured and worn out tubes and tires patched or replaced.

The nuts and bolts of the experiences are all part of the fun.

But for 'today's kids' you mention, that more so describes the relatively few on the wealthier side of the tracks. It's still a good point.

My older brothers were years older and got to go with dad to hunting camp with uncles and everyone. I was too young and was always the one begging to go before things got tighter and dad stopped going. Ever since then it's only me, my brother's aren't interested in hunting or fishing (I don't believe they were even when they got to go).

I'll second Plumbgranny, never feel more alive than when I'm out in it. To me it's never enough and never will be, as we only have so many days.

If those earlier posted charts are any indication, then I'm no longer convinced outdoors sportsman numbers are in decline. One might argue the trend looks fairly stable. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep working to protect our rights. What was it, fifty or so years of data. Heck, tons of people think things look great for humans in the outdoors even with hundreds of thousands of years of data.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Luv2hunteup said:


> The Independence Hunt is only ~2% of the annual kill. *If the DNR would just move the opener of buck season to November 15th* I doubt that it would hardly even be mentioned. Everyone's weapon of choice and age group would have equal opportunity if that happened. I can’t think of a reason why anyone would have a reason, that wasn’t selfish, complain.



Still trying to get bow hunters to quit killing your bucks before you get a wack attum eh?!:lol::lol::lol:


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

johnhunter247 said:


> How is that contradicting? Because I see a buck pole with 50 plus deer on it and maybe one if any is mature that means I look down on it? Absolutely not! Just because I wouldn’t shoot a deer doesn’t mean I look down on the guy that shot it. That’s ridiculous and I have to disagree. I believe the majority of trophy hunters would agree with me. There are bad apples in every bunch for sure no matter the scenario. *Myself and most could care less what you shoot*, how you hunt or why you hunt. As long as you take pleasure in the outdoor recreation and enjoy it for your reasons that’s all that matters. I believe it’s a myth that meat hunters abide by. I hear it a lot on these forums where guys talk about how trophy hunters look down at hunters for what they shoot but I’ve never actually seen it. I don’t know anyone that would do it. Has any member on this forum ever belittled another hunter for a deer they have shot? My guess is that if there is the person is probably an immature teen or twenty something. Or a guy that finally killed one nice buck and now he is the almighty hunter and thinks everyone else is holding him back. Don’t be that guy. That guy has so much to learn and a lot of growing up to do. But I have to disagree with you on the contradicting. I don’t see any contradicting there. To me a mature buck is five years old plus. In no way does that mean I look down on what you shoot. I could care less what you shoot. Just my mentality on what determines a mature buck. I can’t say I have ever seen a buck pole full of them. Not even a pole full of four year olds. I have seen lots of polls with one or two four year olds, ten or so three year olds and stacks of one and two year olds. But never polls stack full of big bucks. Stick I wish I was around in the 50’s and 60’s to see the poles in the upper(glad I’m not that old!lol) but I was born in the mid seventies. I’ve never hunted the upper anyhow but would love to one day. It sure is beautiful in the summertime. I’m betting lots of hunters have logged some amazing views while deer hunting up there.
> 
> On a side note I hate the term big buck. That’s a term I believe is a misconception that lots seem to argue over. One guy thinks a 16” wide 125” 8pt is a “big” buck and some hunters don’t. I’ve seen some beautiful bucks that aren’t mature as well. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I mean I’m sure somewhere out there a guy is watching Rosie O’Donnell on tv and thinking to himself man is she beautiful. I agree a trophy is in the eye of the beholder as well. A trophy can be a two year old six point to one and a five year old twelve point to another. Like I said I don’t care for the word big buck. I would rather use the word mature, young, nice and beautiful. As far as deer go when I hear the word big I’m thinking mature. I. Have to also disagree with whoever said every deer is a trophy. I would agree every deer is a nice deer and the tenderloins probably taste good. But what I consider a trophy caliber deer is different from the next guy. Everybody is different and there thoughts on a trophy differ. Obviously some think every deer is a trophy as I’ve read it in this thread. I think a trophy is something that is hard to come by and earned and no I don’t believe in participation trophies. But just because I don’t think your deer is a trophy doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s a nice deer. Doesn’t mean I think less of you as a hunter or that I’m going to belittle you. That’s totally ridiculous and I’m happy for you. I think highly of any hunter who tries to hunt state land in Michigan. If your successful at harvesting deer consistently on state land trophy or not that makes you a very good hunter and it’s one hell of an accomplishment.
> 
> ...


So you voted NO to APRs in Michigan I presume?


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

triplelunger said:


> So you voted NO to APRs in Michigan I presume?


No, I’m for apr’s. Doesn’t mean I look down on those who aren’t for them. It’s just a difference of opinion. Just like the apr’s we have now. Three inches on one side is an apr no matter how you look at it. Following laws is following laws no matter the scenario. I’m all for advancing age structure and better quality hunting. Has nothing to do with belittling another hunter. Pulling at straws...


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

triplelunger said:


> So you voted NO to APRs in Michigan I presume?


I’d vote yes on aprs. But god forbid thousands upon thousands of us michiganders would ever get a vote. 


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

sniper said:


> You and some others here need to grow a set Lab! Quit being so sensitive. Lol
> I kid I kid. Seriously I’ve shot my share of 1.5 yr olds and so has my whole family. There is no shame in shooting deer. You guys need to stay off fartbook. Pre Madonna alley I’ll call it.
> Never seen the degrading here. Never.
> 
> ...


I was called out on this site a few years ago because I shot a six point . But that guy is banned now, but I rarely see it anymore ,if ever on MS and yes FB sites are the worst for that kinda crap. There have been a couple of guys from this site that have commented on FB about the size of bucks people have taken. I won't post those comments on here to save this thread from shutting down.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

sniper said:


> You and some others here need to grow a set Lab! Quit being so sensitive. Lol
> I kid I kid. Seriously I’ve shot my share of 1.5 yr olds and so has my whole family. There is no shame in shooting deer. You guys need to stay off fartbook. Pre Madonna alley I’ll call it.
> Never seen the degrading here. Never.
> 
> ...


Enter sparkey in the search bar.
Enter baby bucks in the search bar.
Who or what is being degraded by the terms?

Here's an example of what you have never seen. I guess.

[APRs are for the guys who have difficulty aging deer on the hoof. Many of us won’t shoot bucks with dried milk on their lips no matter how many spindly points the deer has. Does are made of meat too, the antler obsessed baby buck shooters just don’t get that.]


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## jrose (Aug 17, 2011)

d_rek said:


> This thread is now hilariously out of touch, btw.
> 
> APRs = ruining hunting.
> Video games = ruining hunting.
> ...


You forgot access to land


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

jrose said:


> You forgot access to land


No state east of the Mississippi has more land open to public hunting than Michigan. It’s certainly not an issue here. Maybe that’s why it wasn’t listed.


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## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

Because everyone wants to play on their phones!!!!


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Luv2hunteup said:


> No state east of the Mississippi has more land open to public hunting than Michigan. It’s certainly not an issue here. Maybe that’s why it wasn’t listed.


Access to private property has dropped off drastically. Leasing, anti-hunter, owners, etc. 

In many areas of the state there is very little public hunting. When you can find it, it is over crowded and over hunted. 

It is an issue.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jrose said:


> You forgot access to land


And rain!


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Deer hunting in a light, on and off rain, can be REALLY good! Makes everything quiet. I don't like hunting in heavy rain, but, I have killed one buck in a downpour.


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

stickbow shooter said:


> I was called out on this site a few years ago because I shot a six point . But that guy is banned now, but I rarely see it anymore ,if ever on MS and yes FB sites are the worst for that kinda crap. There have been a couple of guys from this site that have commented on FB about the size of bucks people have taken. I won't post those comments on here to save this thread from shutting down.


Facebutt is excellent!! Thats where u see true colors. MSF is very polite compared to fb


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

DecoySlayer said:


> Deer hunting in a light, on and off rain, can be REALLY good! Makes everything quiet. I don't like hunting in heavy rain, but, I have killed one buck in a downpour.


Yes. Don't miss a planned hunt over rain.
Multiple times though weather has been blamed for reduced "harvest" numbers.(My goodness , Milwaukee has clouds!)
Standing corn is often tossed in right along with it.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Waif said:


> Enter sparkey in the search bar.
> Enter baby bucks in the search bar.
> Who or what is being degraded by the terms?
> 
> ...


That’s what makes this site so great. You can read both sides of the debate instead of just reading the posts from the anti improvement crowd. How many of the above terms were directed at a specific individual when they posted a pic of a yearling buck?


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## Buddwiser (Dec 14, 2003)

I think some of the reasons for the drop in numbers might have to do with the type of teachers young people have throughout their schooling. Anti-gun and anti-hunting teachers harping against guns and killing of animals for sport is sure to resonate in some, especially in those homes where guns and hunting doesn't exist.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Waif said:


> Yes. Don't miss a planned hunt over rain.
> Multiple times though weather has been blamed for reduced "harvest" numbers.(My goodness , Milwaukee has clouds!)
> Standing corn is often tossed in right along with it.


I’ll take standing corn any day. Awesome spot to kill a mature buck. They love standing corn.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Buddwiser said:


> I think some of the reasons for the drop in numbers might have to do with the type of teachers young people have throughout their schooling. Anti-gun and anti-hunting teachers harping against guns and killing of animals for sport is sure to resonate in some, especially in those homes where guns and hunting doesn't exist.



The public indoctrination system is good for that.


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't think technology is having as big of an affect as many like to think. In 2006 30 million Americans hiked, in 2017 that number rose to 45 million, a 50% increase in 11 years. People want to be outside, they just might not want to kill an animal while being outside.

My theory, that I don't see mentioned much is we haven't had a major war in so long. When we had generations of Americans coming home from war the potential of having to kill another human puts killing an animal into a completely different perspective, we value animal rights and feelings much more than 50 years ago.

Another reason is the increased productivity and availability of store purchased meats. Its much easier and cost effective to purchase meat at a Wal-Mart than to go through all the expense of getting a deer for the average person.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

NbyNW said:


> When we had generations of Americans coming home from war the potential of having to kill another human puts killing an animal into a completely different perspective, we value animal rights and feelings much more than 50 years ago.



FAR more came home from war in 1946 and hunter numbers rose. 

Many in this country value animal "rights", more than human rights. In reality there is no such thing as "animal rights".


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

johnhunter247 said:


> No, I’m for apr’s. Doesn’t mean I look down on those who aren’t for them. It’s just a difference of opinion. Just like the apr’s we have now. Three inches on one side is an apr no matter how you look at it. Following laws is following laws no matter the scenario. I’m all for advancing age structure and better quality hunting. Has nothing to do with belittling another hunter. Pulling at straws...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Silly.
One side of the mouth: I don't care what you shoot.
Other side of the mouth: I want to make the deer you shot illegal for you to shoot next year.

Just own it, man! you don't like it if your neighbor shoots a small buck!


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

triplelunger said:


> Silly.
> One side of the mouth: I don't care what you shoot.
> Other side of the mouth: I want to make the deer you shot illegal for you to shoot next year.
> 
> Just own it, man! you don't like it if your neighbor shoots a small buck!


That’s completely ridiculous. Keep pulling at straws! When I owned property in lenawee county I used to let kids come during the youth hunt and they could shoot what ever legal animal they wanted. I had kids kill 6pts and I was happy for them and there dad and proud to be able to offer the opportunity and the memories they made. Your trying to mix apples and oranges. In no way does being pro apr make you a bad person, make you a better hunter or put you in a category that means you belittle another hunter. That’s completely ridiculous.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

johnhunter247 said:


> That’s completely ridiculous. Keep pulling at straws! When I owned property in lenawee county I used to let kids come during the youth hunt and they could shoot what ever legal animal they wanted. I had kids kill 6pts and I was happy for them and there dad and proud to be able to offer the opportunity and the memories they made. Your trying to mix apples and oranges. In no way does being pro apr make you a bad person, make you a better hunter or put you in a category that means you belittle another hunter. That’s completely ridiculous.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice job taking kids hunting, but I'm sorry, being pro APR means precisely that you want to limit another hunter from shooting a deer you do not want them to be able to shoot.
I didn't say that makes you a bad person, I certainly didn't say that makes you a better hunter or that you openly belittle other hunters. (more like passively belittle them)
I would be willing to bet that deep down under that smiling face, you would dislike the fact that your adult neighbor shot a small buck.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

triplelunger said:


> I would be willing to bet that deep down under that smiling face, you would dislike the fact that your adult neighbor shot a small buck.



But if offered a bowl of really good venison stew made from that small buck would not turn it down. and would likely ask for seconds!


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

triplelunger said:


> Silly.
> One side of the mouth: I don't care what you shoot.
> Other side of the mouth: I want to make the deer you shot illegal for you to shoot next year.
> 
> Just own it, man! you don't like it if your neighbor shoots a small buck!


As much as you want to believe your post above, the variables of why it’s not true are endless. 

Example:
I absolutely want one of my neighbors to kill a buck ( no matter the size) on Oct 1. This way we get to hunt in peace for the rest of the year. No more riding his atv or walking around at primetime. No more yelling at his dog from his tree stand. No more 15 min continuous buck grunt sessions. I could go on and on. I passed shots on over 30 1.5 yr old bucks last year. Go ahead and fire away!


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

stickbow shooter said:


> I was called out on this site a few years ago because I shot a six point . But that guy is banned now, but I rarely see it anymore ,if ever on MS and yes FB sites are the worst for that kinda crap. There have been a couple of guys from this site that have commented on FB about the size of bucks people have taken. I won't post those comments on here to save this thread from shutting down.


Look on the bright side, at least they believed it was you that shot it. And don't even wonder if I'll store it for you, I won't, I don't store 6 pointers! :lol::lol::lol:


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Luv2hunteup said:


> That’s what makes this site so great. You can read both sides of the debate instead of just reading the posts from the anti improvement crowd. How many of the above terms were directed at a specific individual when they posted a pic of a yearling buck?


I've no idea. It's not zero though.
For those who restrain themselves from directing such , does it change their opinion?

Speaking of anti improvement ...Do you know anyone who lobbied to take doe off the table ?
Not that there's nothing wrong with that if you're into T.D.M..
And while discussing T.D.M. /Tedium. What comes up on a google search?
How about A.P.R. on a search?

That's how little such terms are in common use.
And improvement vs anti-improvement are far different from T.D.M..
If reduction only was the goal ,that confirms those promoting taking doe off the table are not following your(?) management goal. Are you ragging on them folks you know involved?

When was T.D.M. coined , and by whom?
When was the first time/last time the D.N.R. claimed it as their management goal?


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

triplelunger said:


> Nice job taking kids hunting, but I'm sorry, being pro APR means precisely that you want to limit another hunter from shooting a deer you do not want them to be able to shoot.
> I didn't say that makes you a bad person, I certainly didn't say that makes you a better hunter or that you openly belittle other hunters. (more like passively belittle them)
> I would be willing to bet that deep down under that smiling face, you would dislike the fact that your adult neighbor shot a small buck.


Absolutely not. I don’t care what my neighbor shoots. He can shoot whatever he wants and I’m happy for him and I definitely wouldn’t turn down the soup. Definitely would take seconds too. The only thing I want to do with my neighbors is get along great with them and have a very good relationship. Of corse I would love to have similar goals and work together with the neighbors. But if I had a neighbor that didn’t want to participate in growing mature deer and just hunted for meat I wouldn’t think any less of them, would still want to have a great relationship with them, and help them in any way I can. Wether it be tracking a deer, installing food plots, cutting wood, have a tenderloin and a beer, etc. I’ve always been a guy that would do anything in my power to help out the neighbors and it’s paid off more than once when I’ve needed something. I would hate to have a property line with a neighbor I didn’t get along with. That would suck and I would do anything to make it right. Luckily I’ve never been in that position. I’ve read some stories on here of guys being in that position and it sounds like a lot of headache. No way would I ruin a relationship with a neighbor over a deer. Too many things in life more important than worrying about my neighbors deer harvest goals. I believe most trophy hunters would agree. The perception you have is misguided. The guys that are giving back to the resource by doing habitat work, food plots, etc. and passing countless numbers of deer letting them grow are hardly selfish. I’m sure some guys on here that own farms and do all they can to turn there place into a whitetail paradise would agree. It’s almost comical the way the guys that don’t hunt for mature animals try to make us out as if we were selfish. Your mentality is completely absurd.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

3 lungs and no brains. I do wish I had 3 lungs thou


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> 3 lungs and no brains. I do wish I had 3 lungs thou


LMFAO on the having 3 lungs.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

I grew up hunting for Ducks, Geese, Upland Game, and Deer. My Father was an avid Hunter, and I learned to shoot a gun by age 6. But fishing was my real passion, and I eventually decided that, if I had time to hunt, I would go fishing instead. I can't explain exactly why that happened, but I am an obsessed Fisherman, and pretty much a non-hunter at this time. I still have some guns, but rarely shoot. 

Maybe it was because I could only hunt during "hunting seasons," and I can go fishing every day of the year?

There were no youth hunts when I was a kid, but I was sitting in duck, and deer blinds by age 6. I frequently trade fish (fresh, frozen, or smoked) for wild game meat. I also trade fish for permission to tap Maple Trees, lol.


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## LabtechLewis (Nov 20, 2008)

mbrewer said:


> Better type fast. Stick's done it again, he's got the pimps and the ho's stepping and fetching like they asses on fire and they balls is catching.


Funny!

Also reminded me of an old Too $hort rhyme: "If a pimp is what you want to be, you're gonna hafta learn Pimpology"..."If you want to be giant-sized, come to my school - get pimpmotized!"

Talk about metamorphic events!

Might have to spin that once today...


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

We used to see several nice buck poles with big mature bucks in the 80s and early 90s in the UP including ours some years (not that many) and way more in pictures from the UP from the olden days!
I guess you've never seen MI buck Pole or the ones shown live on MI out of doors, practical sportsman over the last 30 years!?



johnhunter247 said:


> I wish I knew where you could go see buck poles with huge bucks hanging everywhere in Michigan because in my lifetime I’ve never seen it. Even in Jackson county I’ve never seen a pole full of mature bucks. So I will have to disagree there. I didn’t start seeing any really mature bucks dead or alive until I started hunting out of state. I also disagree with hunters looking down on others because they shoot young bucks. I tend to believe that’s a myth too. I think the guys shooting the immature animals think we think that. But most of the hunters I know hunt mature deer only and they could care less about anyone but themselves. I hear guys mention that nonsense a lot. But I’ve never actually seen a hunter put another hunter down for harvesting a deer. I firmly believe the reason for lagging hunter numbers is electronics, video games and internet. It’s hard to get a kid to go outside and play this day in age let alone go hunting. Tough to get kids in the woods and that’s when the passion sets in. I think it really started with the millennials. There generation and later doesn’t have much interest in hunting and it’s getting worse. As the people over 30 right now retire from hunting I believe hunting will become a thing of the past. It’s unfortunate but it seems to be the way of the world now. It seems no one can go without electronics. Imagine if the internet crashed and couldn’t be fixed. Nothing would make me happier!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

Ahhh yes the all the PROFESSIONAL out of state BIG Buck hunters, so let's put price tag on that, how much does it cost you to go out of state and hunt, talk about why Hunter numbers are declining, turned into a rich man's sport! State your price per pound of venison please!


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

triplelunger said:


> Nice job taking kids hunting, but I'm sorry, being pro APR means precisely that you want to limit another hunter from shooting a deer you do not want them to be able to shoot.
> I didn't say that makes you a bad person, I certainly didn't say that makes you a better hunter or that you openly belittle other hunters. (more like passively belittle them)
> I would be willing to bet that deep down under that smiling face, you would dislike the fact that your adult neighbor shot a small buck.


Funny because I used to be very pro apr. Anymore I really dont care one way for another for a few reasons. When I was excited about the idea of MAPR's limiting another hunter was the last thing on my mind. My reasoning was to create a better experience for other hunters not limiting them. I thought it would do wonders for everyone's hunting experience and hopefully help with hunter recruitment/ retention. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

mattawanhunter said:


> Ahhh yes the all the PROFESSIONAL out of state BIG Buck hunters, so let's put price tag on that, how much does it cost you to go out of state and hunt, talk about why Hunter numbers are declining, turned into a rich man's sport! State your price per pound of venison please!


I'd rather pay for pounds of antlers, no one eats that shet..lol


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

DirtySteve said:


> Funny because I used to be very pro apr. Anymore I really dont care one way for another for a few reasons. When I was excited about the idea of MAPR's limiting another hunter was the last thing on my mind. My reasoning was to create a better experience for other hunters not limiting them. I thought it would do wonders for everyone's hunting experience and hopefully help with hunter recruitment/ retention.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Absolutely correct!!! Some guys have know idea how much their experiences could improve until it actually happens. If it could happen one time most would be hooked. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I would imagine it depends on what kind of experience they were looking for. Not everyone is wanting the same thing ,or hunts with the same type of equipment. I am happy killing a six point with my Traditional equipment. I have killed a really nice 8 point with a xbow. Did nothing for me, actually said ,wish I used my recurve. So the size of the deer doesn't make the experience, it's a accumulation of things and doing it the way YOU want. Not what everyone else thinks is the right way.


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

mbrewer said:


> Look on the bright side, at least they believed it was you that shot it. And don't even wonder if I'll store it for you, I won't, I don't store 6 pointers! :lol::lol::lol:


Wow, you're hard core pro apr. Has to be four on a side.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> I would imagine it depends on what kind of experience they were looking for. Not everyone is wanting the same thing ,or hunts with the same type of equipment. I am happy killing a six point with my Traditional equipment. I have killed a really nice 8 point with a xbow. Did nothing for me, actually said ,wish I used my recurve. So the size of the deer doesn't make the experience, it's a accumulation of things and doing it the way YOU want. Not what everyone else thinks is the right way.


Take the scope off the xbow


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> Take the scope off the xbow


Na I am just letting it sit in the closet gathering dust. Someday I might have to use it again.


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## Bearblade (Dec 30, 2005)

sullyxlh said:


> The majority of parents aren't raising boys to be men anymore, it's 18 go to college get indoctrinated by Liberals to hate guns while getting shunned by your peers if your even caught killing animals.
> 
> Now actually get caught in the act with a gun AND killing animals???
> The liberal puke teachers and students will banish you to another planet..
> ...


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## Bearblade (Dec 30, 2005)

Really? That sounds pretty hate laced? Not ashamed to say I went to college and was not a little puke nursed by liberals. The tobacco bus picked us up in the mornings and off we went to the fields for the day when I was a kid. And that's not the half of how I got through. I got the strap too and everything a righteous conservative would inflict - lol! Yes, there were a lot of ideas around in college and some were liberal. That was the point. It's different today but I think the kids struggle even more than we did in ways we can't relate to.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

mattawanhunter said:


> Ahhh yes the all the PROFESSIONAL out of state BIG Buck hunters, so let's put price tag on that, how much does it cost you to go out of state and hunt, talk about why Hunter numbers are declining, turned into a rich man's sport! State your price per pound of venison please!


Michigan 2 week hunt.
Lease. $1350
Lodging $580
Food/gas $200
License $50
Misc. $150
Total. $2330

Out of state 2 week hunt. 
Land. Free ( public) 
Lodging $ 580
Food/gas $300
License ( depends but Ohio and Indiana are quite easy to hunt living in Michigan) 
$180
Misc. $200
Total $1260

I feel for myself and what I look for from hunting leasing a good piece of property is well worth the cost for better hunting in Michigan.
Out of state I find distance to be an inconvenience and deters me from investing into a lease. But I do have hunting almost as equivalent to my leased properties in Michigan. Only difference being I see less deer.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Let's see, hunt Public Land cost = $0
Gas = maybe $ 200 per season
Lodging = $ 0 ( sleep in my own bed )
License fees $76

Trip to camp
Gas $300-400
Lodging $0
Public Land cost $0
Food $100
Soul cleansing - Priceless.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

mattawanhunter said:


> Just read one of John Eberharts books or listen to a podcast or watch a video I've done all the above, this is now the new standard published in every major magazine and on the air every where, tell me how many people are really going to have the time to go through all that much of a sent control regiment and prep stands six months in advance or more and climb up with tree spikes and swing around in a saddle 20' in the air while standing on limbs or having your feet against the tree?!
> 
> What percentage of guys do you think we'll actually do that,what percentage do you think are actually capable of doing that, or how many are like me and read that and just go, that's not my reality and it's never going to happen, and I'll be happy with the spike horns the fork horns, the six pointers and eight pointers that I've shot over the years even the 10& 11 pointers I've shot! Many of which were before I did any scent control at all!
> 
> ...


I dont know why you think that is some sort of standard? I personally dont k ow anyone who hunts like eberhart. To me it's just interesting reading material. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

mattawanhunter said:


> I I think a lot of it has to do with the number of colleges in Michigan, level of education, standard of living, dual-income, trends to move into the city, and partake in the city high-end Brew pub dining out culture lifestyle,there's a lot of new trend-setting going on and it's not necessarily about outdoor activities like hunting!
> 
> To compare any other state to Michigan, other than maybe Wisconsin and Minnesota is a real stretch! Apples and oranges, Oklahoma and Michigan!


If you want to compare number of colleges....Illinois,Ohio, Pennsylvania and NY Have more universities than MI. I dont think we are more trendy or hip than Illinois , Pennsylvania or NY. Our big metropolis is Detroit. Hardly compares to NY,Chicago, Philly, Pittsburgh etc... I would say we are a blue collar state. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

sullyxlh said:


> The majority of parents aren't raising boys to be men anymore, it's 18 go to college get indoctrinated by Liberals to hate guns while getting shunned by your peers if your even caught killing animals.
> 
> Now actually get caught in the act with a gun AND killing animals???
> The liberal puke teachers and students will banish you to another planet..
> ...


Idk. My son went to college and joined the DU club, fishing club, and the 4x4 club. All of the clubs are supported and funded by the university.

My sons freshman year he took a deer rifle and two shotguns to school with him. They had to be stored at the campus security office which was just a minor inconvenience for 3 am duck hunting....but understandable. My son had a professor that would talk grouse hunting and he allowed the top test grade for each exam take a peak at his map of favorite brook trout holes.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> Let's see, hunt Public Land cost = $0
> Gas = maybe $ 200 per season
> Lodging = $ 0 ( sleep in my own bed )
> License fees $76
> ...


You cant even count food. You have to eat everyday regardless. I also dont count gas as I usually drive less when I go to deer camp for a week vs staying home and going to work everyday. Hunting is a cost savings for me. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> You cant even count food. You have to eat everyday regardless. I also dont count gas as I usually drive less when I go to deer camp for a week vs staying home and going to work everyday. Hunting is a cost savings for me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


True on the food, I can hunt out my back door if I want since I'm surrounded by Fed land. It's a curse and a blessing. But I usually don't. My biggest cost is for gas if I go to camp, it's almost 500 miles one way. But that's it . The camp is located bordering Fed land also. I'm retired so I have to count gas.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

sullyxlh said:


> The majority of parents aren't raising boys to be men anymore, it's 18 go to college get indoctrinated by Liberals to hate guns while getting shunned by your peers if your even caught killing animals.
> 
> Now actually get caught in the act with a gun AND killing animals???
> The liberal puke teachers and students will banish you to another planet..
> ...


Bee Ess!


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

No fips please! You can have Chicago and all the 100 mile bottle neck in any direction,My GPS says that would save time going to my camp in the UP! No Thanks,I feel sorry for any you guys that go down that way or get on the 8090 tollway and in a huge traffic jam just to drive and hunt somewhere I'll stick with my northern Michigan any day! 

I just engineered a job and made several trips to Illinois State University, what a mess drove down 3 times went WAY out of the way to avoid that mess! Northen Michigan and the UP
The difference is worth the Drive!













DirtySteve said:


> If you want to compare number of colleges....Illinois,Ohio, Pennsylvania and NY Have more universities than MI. I dont think we are more trendy or hip than Illinois , Pennsylvania or NY. Our big metropolis is Detroit. Hardly compares to NY,Chicago, Philly, Pittsburgh etc... I would say we are a blue collar state.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

I've got to know where this University is and what it's called "******* U" sounds great and very abnormal!



DirtySteve said:


> Idk. My son went to college and joined the DU club, fishing club, and the 4x4 club. All of the clubs are supported and funded by the university.
> 
> My sons freshman year he took a deer rifle and two shotguns to school with him. They had to be stored at the campus security office which was just a minor inconvenience for 3 am duck hunting....but understandable. My son had a professor that would talk grouse hunting and he allowed the top test grade for each exam take a peak at his map of favorite brook trout holes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

So my point was he is published in almost every major deer hunting publication, Woods and Water news deer and deer huntingm,other magazines and podcast and videos,so the point is, people are seeing this reading about it constantly and thinking this is what they need to do in order to be at at successful Hunter so yes I believe you totally missed my point! Dirty Steve...



DirtySteve said:


> I dont know why you think that is some sort of standard? I personally dont k ow anyone who hunts like eberhart. To me it's just interesting reading material.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

That is fairly inexpensive I'll have to give it a try sometime,had a few life speed bumps so it's probably not going to happen but wherever I do go I want it to be a peaceful adventure not full of stress and traffic to get there I see these hunting shows where these people are getting off these planes going to lodges! I sure as heck am not going to go spend the night in the hotel room to go hunting!

I trade the farmer and pay $50 a year to lease a hundred acres, marginal noisy but connected to my home land!

I spent $3000 for a base camp in the UP bought an $800 old camper, we just came back a from there,jumped deer all over, directly across the street is public hunting land over 2,100 acres and several thousand more acres of state land in every direction. Anyway I think thread has to do with declining hunting participation numbers and for sure what some perceive now as the cost of getting into deer hunting is just out of touch for them!



G20man said:


> Michigan 2 week hunt.
> Lease. $1350
> Lodging $580
> Food/gas $200
> ...


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

mattawanhunter said:


> So my point was he is published in almost every major deer hunting publication, Woods and Water news deer and deer huntingm,other magazines and podcast and videos,so the point is, people are seeing this reading about it constantly and thinking this is what they need to do in order to be at at successful Hunter so yes I believe you totally missed my point! Dirty Steve...


Why can't we just assume that people reading such stuff are looking for such stuff?


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

mbrewer said:


> Why can't we just assume that people reading such stuff are looking for such stuff?


I usually do and noticed most of your avatars were men


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jr28schalm said:


> I usually do and noticed most of your avatars were men


Hmmm. How interesting you keep track...


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

As for the comments on Eberhart . 

No his way is not a standard to hunt deer. 
It is in line with much of what is the standard to be consistent on killing older bucks. 

Yes all his efforts are not a requirement to do so but the general practices are shared by many who strive to kill older bucks. 

Now imagine how much more successful the average hunter would be on deer in general if they put in half the effort Eberhart does. 

In deer hunting if you want to be successful more than not you can't just hope and wish unless you hunt in an area over populated with deer. 
That is where I see the disconnect. 
On this site alone many attribute good or bad hunting to the deer numbers. 
Lots of deer makes it easier.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

mattawanhunter said:


> No fips please! You can have Chicago and all the 100 mile bottle neck in any direction,My GPS says that would save time going to my camp in the UP! No Thanks,I feel sorry for any you guys that go down that way or get on the 8090 tollway and in a huge traffic jam just to drive and hunt somewhere I'll stick with my northern Michigan any day!
> 
> I just engineered a job and made several trips to Illinois State University, what a mess drove down 3 times went WAY out of the way to avoid that mess! Northen Michigan and the UP
> The difference is worth the Drive!
> View attachment 404217


I drive at night and never have had any issues. I have made the trip more times than I can count to Iowa and northern Missouri. I am sorry you feel that way and for the incredible hunting your missing out on. Comparing the quality and abundance of what your missing out on is a shame. Any hunter that loves whitetails should have the opportunity to experience the type of hunting you think only happens on tv for what most consider the spoiled and lucky fortunate. If you do your homework and put in the effort you can find hunting exactly like what you see on tv. Northern Michigan sure is beautiful but the whitetail hunting your missing out on is far superior than any hunting our state has to offer. We all love our state but the quality of whitetail hunting is severely lacking. If opportunity knocks to hunt southern Iowa, Northern Missouri or Kansas do your self a favor and take the opportunity. I highly doubt you will regret it. No matter where you hunt though good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Waif said:


> Hmmm. How interesting you keep track...


My type must have coffee


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

mattawanhunter said:


> I've got to know where this University is and what it's called "******* U" sounds great and very abnormal!


Sounds like NMU.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jr28schalm said:


> My type must have coffee


We'll get along just fine then! L.o.l.


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

Because many of the new people entering the sport read these magazines and watch the videos,I did when I first ordered deer and deer hunting magazine years ago, to learn more about hunting! Doesn't make it realistic for most people,I like Dr Ken Nordbergs methods better,where he hunts the big woods of Minnesota is much more like The UP big woods where we hunt and you don't have to hear " I've killed blah blah blah Boone and Crockett blah blah blah Pope and Young bucks" you know when you've done it,you really don't have to talk about it!

Dr. Nordberg methods are much more obtainable to the average Hunter, in quest of a large large antlered buck!

Just one of those pictures at Jay's sporting goods with all the trophy deer behind you is all you need, no words or bragging are necessary!



mbrewer said:


> Why can't we just assume that people reading such stuff are looking for such stuff?


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

This post came up in my “monthly trending” email and I didn’t read all 17 pages but would like to chime in from my view. I’m 33 and all the people I know are just hanging in there and what extra money they have goes to other cheaper interestes. I have spoken to my father about this many times about how all companies used to provide insurance and paid vacation and even holiday parties. No vacation no time. No insurance no money. Plus on top of that “what’s cool” or “what’s interesting” to youth has just changed. I personally have taken nieces and nephews and my daughters friends out shooting and fishing. It’s just not there (interest). The internet in my own opinion has ruined more than what we see at face value. Adults that I talk to at school functions are scared of everything(seriously). I also know a lot of men that can’t fart without asking permission from their wife never mind kill Bambi. So a little bit of manliness has been burned away. I think the list goes on and on kinda like being killed with a thousand cuts. I don’t know the statistics but I would imagine there are a lot of hobbies that are slowly disappearing. I personally wasn’t born into a hunting family. As a 1st generation American my parents tried to claw their way to the top. They had no time or concern for it or interest. I picked up hunting from stories, books and the internet. But on the other hand they also say as people get older they place their fear of the almighty end into everything around them. Numbers maybe down now and in 5yrs shoot back up. Then the thread will be “I can hunt without some turd shooting at me”


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## Snowlover 77 (Nov 17, 2009)

DirtySteve said:


> Idk. My son went to college and joined the DU club, fishing club, and the 4x4 club. All of the clubs are supported and funded by the university.
> 
> My sons freshman year he took a deer rifle and two shotguns to school with him. They had to be stored at the campus security office which was just a minor inconvenience for 3 am duck hunting....but understandable. My son had a professor that would talk grouse hunting and he allowed the top test grade for each exam take a peak at his map of favorite brook trout holes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app



I'm thinking your son went to LSSU? Sounds like my experience there. I stored my shotgun/rifle in campus security basement, and checked them out all the time. Talked grouse hunting and deer hunting with numerous professors. Met a lot of great outdoorspeople, who had a passion for the same pursuits as me, and we remain friends 5+ years later. 

College doesn't necessarily mean people won't become interested in the outdoors. In my case it helped push my passion.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> Back in 70s ,80s,90s hunter numbers were very high threw out the state.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

That chart means absolutely nothing. There are no valid comparisons on it. The laws were SO different you cannot compare say 1965 to 1995. 

Do a little research.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

toto said:


> I don't chime in here much, I don't deer hunt, I know sacriligious. Anyways, this is a problem that exists in other outdoor pursuits as well and has been discussed in the fishing arena as well.


It's a problem that largely exists in ALL pursuits. There is a strong dilution of interests due to massively increased choice.

When my dad was a kid - there were 3 TV stations.
When I was a kid - there were 13 stations.
My kids have 200+ stations. 

Guess what - this means EVERY station gets less viewership and attention.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

ratherboutside said:


> Additionally, the percentage of people who grew up on farms is steadily falling I believe. What was once 10 family farms is not 1 giant farm. I really dont think this is a revearsable issue.


Absolutely true.

The percentage of the population living on farms has been steadily declining since about 1900.


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## Botiz (Oct 21, 2010)

pescadero said:


> It's a problem that largely exists in ALL pursuits. There is a strong dilution of interests due to massively increased choice.
> 
> When my dad was a kid - there were 3 TV stations.
> When I was a kid - there were 13 stations.
> ...


Great point. I suspect this is a big part of the “problem” we’re all trying to solve.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DirtySteve said:


> You cant even count food. You have to eat everyday regardless. I also dont count gas as I usually drive less when I go to deer camp for a week vs staying home and going to work everyday. Hunting is a cost savings for me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Yep.

I spend LESS while hunting than not.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

pescadero said:


> It's a problem that largely exists in ALL pursuits. There is a strong dilution of interests due to massively increased choice.
> 
> When my dad was a kid - there were 3 TV stations.
> When I was a kid - there were 13 stations.
> ...


Yeah that's correct, but in this discussion we are talking about deer hunter #'s, or even perhaps anglers as well. You are correct in that the youth of today have a far greater expansion of interests, but I contend they ain't all good, if you know what I mean,


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

pescadero said:


> It's a problem that largely exists in ALL pursuits. There is a strong dilution of interests due to massively increased choice.
> 
> When my dad was a kid - there were 3 TV stations.
> When I was a kid - there were 13 stations.
> ...


When I was a kid we had 4 channels because we could get a Canadian channel.

My Dad always would say I’ll be damned if I’ll ever be that lazy where I couldn’t tell my kid to get up and change the channel. That was soon followed by as long as you are up, get me a beer. I miss him dearly.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

DecoySlayer said:


> That chart means absolutely nothing. There are no valid comparisons on it. The laws were SO different you cannot compare say 1965 to 1995.
> 
> Do a little research.


Actually that chart shows we had more hunters in the 80s&90s than prior. .
Regulations don't stop hunters from hunting.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

[Who hunts in Michigan hasn't really evolved. It's the same group, over and over again.

"I think it’s a combination of a lot of factors, that together created something like the perfect storm for white, male baby boomers to participate in hunting," Winkler said.

They may have grown up in more urban areas, but they were only one generation removed from rural life, she said. Their parents grew up on a farm, and maybe their grandparents still lived on one, she said. They tended to have more extensive experience and comfort with firearms, their fathers and uncles serving in World War II, and them perhaps serving in Vietnam, or at least in military service before the draft ended in 1973.

They also had increased time for leisure and recreational activities, Winkler said.

"This was the first generation that had a pretty clear 40-hour workweek, with vacation time built in," she said.

With fewer competing alternatives, getting out into nature was a particularly desired pastime, and the baby boomers had more financial resources and fewer household demands than prior generations, Winkler said.

But that changed with later generations, whose interests and leisure possibilities expanded greatly.

"That traditional notion of masculinity associated with providing for the family, being an outdoors person, providing the food ... that culture of masculinity has changed," Winkler said.]


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

G20man said:


> Actually that chart shows we had more hunters in the 80s&90s than prior. .
> Regulations don't stop hunters from hunting.


What I am missing? Am I reading the chart wrong? I thought it was showing numbers of deer killed in a given year.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

DecoySlayer said:


> What I am missing? Am I reading the chart wrong? I thought it was showing numbers of deer killed in a given year.


It is, that's probably when our Dnr started increasing doe permits.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

stickbow shooter said:


> It is, that's probably when our Dnr started increasing doe permits.



Not only an increase in doe permits. You should be able to see where it became legal to take more than one deer per year. 

The major changes in numbers of deer that could be taken, multiple new seasons, longer seasons, all reflect in the numbers of deer taken in a given year.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

DecoySlayer said:


> Not only an increase in doe permits. You should be able to see where it became legal to take more than one deer per year.
> 
> The major changes in numbers of deer that could be taken, multiple new seasons, longer seasons, all reflect in the numbers of deer taken in a given year.


Yep sometime in that time frame we could take 4 bucks also.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

stickbow shooter said:


> Yep sometime in that time frame we could take 4 bucks also.


Not at any point when I lived in the state, at least not that I can remember.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

FREEPOP said:


> One good reason that there is a decline, is that school sports will penalize those who don't show up for practice during hunting season and they schedule practice on opening day as well as during Thanksgiving.
> So it ends up a choice between hunting or sports.


I am 47. I had that same issue as early as 8th grade. I was told I was either a basketball player or a deer hunting and I needed to choose. We had mandatory sat morning practices all season. I bow hunted weekends and that was an issue for the coach.

Today it is worse though. Many sports are year round if you want to play at a high school level. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

DirtySteve said:


> I think a part of the reason is many baby boomers didnt take their sons hunting. Look back at the old fred trost deer camp footage. Very few youths taking part. For alot if hunters deer camp was a beer drinking party after opening day. I know quite a few that wouldnt take their kids deer hunting for that reason. They would take them pheasant or duck hunting but deer camp was dads vacation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


As it being Dads vacation ,that has been mentioned before.

How did Dad get started? And what retained him? Beer can be drank many times and places.
Not required to hunt. Or maybe it is...


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Youths hunting, in my day, was a right of passage. It was, without a doubt, a family thing. We could not hunt deer, in Michigan, back then, until we were 14. Until that day we hunted small game DREAMING of the day we could go to camp with the men. It was a glorious day when it came. Hunting was important, and VERY special.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

DecoySlayer said:


> Youths hunting, in my day, was a right of passage. It was, without a doubt, a family thing. We could not hunt deer, in Michigan, back then, until we were 14. Until that day we hunted small game DREAMING of the day we could go to camp with the men. It was a glorious day when it came. Hunting was important, and VERY special.


My guess is you did not bow hunt then, or deer hunting was not as special as you claim? Otherwise you would have picked up a bow before you turned 14.

So not bashing so let me rephrase this. If deer hunting was VERY special why did you wait tell you were 14, when you could have picked up a bow and have two extra seasons of deer hunting? Also even if you did not have a license what stopped you from tagging along without a license?

Do you bow hunt now or just firearm/muzzleloader?


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Hunters Edge said:


> My guess is you did not bow hunt then, or deer hunting was not as special as you claim? Otherwise you would have picked up a bow before you turned 14.
> 
> So not bashing so let me rephrase this. If deer hunting was VERY special why did you wait tell you were 14, when you could have picked up a bow and have two extra seasons of deer hunting? Also even if you did not have a license what stopped you from tagging along without a license?
> 
> Do you bow hunt now or just firearm season/muzzleloader?



Bow hunting was "new" at the time. I did bow hunt, but would never shoot one. Why? I could only take one deer per year, no matter how I took it, and gun season was considered "High Holy Days". Bow hunting was for scouting, or a chance for some pat hunting during the day. 

Don't bow hunt, messes up my duck hunting. Hunt 4 or 5 days a year for deer, gun/muzzleloader only. WAY down from when I used to hunt deer a lot. It's just not as fun as it once was. I can't hunt the way I like to and there is no family left to hunt with.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

DirtySteve said:


> I think a part of the reason is many baby boomers didnt take their sons hunting. Look back at the old fred trost deer camp footage. Very few youths taking part. For alot if hunters deer camp was a beer drinking party after opening day. I know quite a few that wouldnt take their kids deer hunting for that reason. They would take them pheasant or duck hunting but deer camp was dads vacation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I quit hunting with a guy years ago because of his drinking before the hunt. I told him I don't drive 250 miles to drink. I can do that at home. I drive that distance to hunt. End of discussion.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

DecoySlayer said:


> Bow hunting was "new" at the time. I did bow hunt, but would never shoot one. Why? I could only take one deer per year, no matter how I took it, and gun season was considered "High Holy Days". Bow hunting was for scouting, or a chance for some pat hunting during the day.
> 
> Don't bow hunt, messes up my duck hunting. Hunt 4 or 5 days a year for deer, gun/muzzleloader only. WAY down from when I used to hunt deer a lot. It's just not as fun as it once was. I can't hunt the way I like to and there is no family left to hunt with.


Thus the reason your against baiting in other threads, you never bow hunted. When young and only a 30lb bow you need a quartering away shot. Not hitting ribs bone but getting into the vitals thus waiting for the animal to give you a killing shot, instead of wounding it.

The reason I asked if Dad or Uncle, or friend did not take you even back then you could not hunt. Even at 14 you had to have an older license holder with you on private property even until you were 16. That was the law, if you shot a deer or hunted deer without a license holder with you it was illegal or even poached deer? So even back then by law you were to be mentored. But many was not. I started deer hunting but not carrying a gun unless you count a BB gun since I was 8. So my parents put the time needed to get me hunting not so today. 

Schools requirements not just sports or band but they go home with homework every night. They also can only miss so many days or reported to child services. Big difference between then and now, not sure if it is all good either. I still think the reduction or decline in hunter retention goes hand in hand with the decline of the middle class.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Hunters Edge said:


> Thus the reason your against baiting in other threads, you never bow hunted. When young and only a 30lb bow you need a quartering away shot. Not hitting ribs bone but getting into the vitals thus waiting for the animal to give you a killing shot, instead of wounding it.
> 
> The reason I asked if Dad or Uncle, or friend did not take you even back then you could not hunt. Even at 14 you had to have an older license holder with you on private property even until you were 16. That was the law, if you shot a deer or hunted deer without a license holder with you it was illegal or even poached deer? So even back then by law you were to be mentored. But many was not. I started deer hunting but not carrying a gun unless you count a BB gun since I was 8. So my parents put the time needed to get me hunting not so today.
> 
> Schools requirements not just sports or band but they go home with homework every night. They also can only miss so many days or reported to child services. Big difference between then and now, not sure if it is all good either. I still think the reduction or decline in hunter retention goes hand in hand with the decline of the middle class.


No, we did not bait, no one did back then. Not with a bow or a gun. It was not the norm. 

On Nov. 15th, 1965, my dad walked with me to my ground blind, which we built during "bow and arrow" season, in the dark, sat me down, and left me. 14 years old. I took my first deer at 0830, giver or take, that morning. 

I HAVE bow hunted, used to a lot, baiting was illegal everywhere I hunted. 

I didn't say I was against baiting, I said if it's legal, go for it. It's just in NO WAY needed to take deer with a gun, bow, crossbow, muzzleloader, etc. 

I had to take my homework up to deer camp. It was sometime tough in that tent to get it done, but I did. My dad would have no let the schools tell him if I could go, or not, he way the father, I was his son, he ruled. They had balls back then. Family was more important than anything.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

DirtySteve said:


> I am 47. I had that same issue as early as 8th grade. I was told I was either a basketball player or a deer hunting and I needed to choose. We had mandatory sat morning practices all season. I bow hunted weekends and that was an issue for the coach.
> 
> Today it is worse though. Many sports are year round if you want to play at a high school level.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


In high school I had to run stairs every Monday at the beginning of basketball practice because I missed a lot of Saturday morning practices. It was worth every stair. Lol. Ironically I was in better shape than any one of my teammates. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

I was trying to find a 1965 deer hunting digest on line, I could not, at least not yet. I did see that the deer opener was Nov 20th, I don't remember that.


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

My age is 70. My kids work 2 and 3 jobs to make a living. My grandchildren have the sports thing, the homework, and need to work shoved down their throats. Schools have a hand out for everything even though property taxes in our area are at all time highs. Schools no longer believe in family time. We help our grandchildren in every way that we can. My granddaughter loves to hunt and fish. I supply all those needs (and have loaned out just about everything to other youngsters that wanted to hunt my property including my blind). 

My granddaughter is still highly pressured to do outside classroom things and to take classes that will never be used. She wants to go to veterinarian school or become a vet tech. Expenses for clothes and transportation are out of sight. She works two jobs (do not mistake, we encourage a good work ethic). Again we help her with these things as much as we can. 

I grew up on a farm and went to college and post-college. I never missed a fishing or a hunting season. I can not ever remember costs and academic pressures being what they are today. The left did not attempt to indoctrinate students. Society and the economy has changed and not for the better.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

I never missed a hunting season, or an opening day, until 1970. I started missing then because my mean Uncle Sam would not let me hunt. He controlled very aspect of my life for 3 years. I had very little say in things back then.


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

Hunters Edge said:


> Thus the reason your against baiting in other threads, you never bow hunted. When young and only a 30lb bow you need a quartering away shot. Not hitting ribs bone but getting into the vitals thus waiting for the animal to give you a killing shot, instead of wounding it.


You seriously cannot post in a thread without making it all about bait. Statements like the one quoted above make me believe that you do not belong in the hunting woods whether bait is legal or not. Sad.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

I am a senior, with bad legs. If baiting is legal, there will be bait, if not, there won't be any out. 

If I get a deer, I do, if I don't, I didn't. I know there are deer where I hunt, that is the most important "secret" to deer hunting. I can't get out and look for them, but I don't care if baiting is legal, or not. Of the more than 100 deer I have taken, only 3 or 4 have been with the use of bait. It is not all that important.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Dish7 said:


> You seriously cannot post in a thread without making it all about bait. Statements like the one quoted above make me believe that you do not belong in the hunting woods whether bait is legal or not. Sad.


I really do not care what you think. It is obvious that decoyslayer post is contradicting.



DecoySlayer said:


> We could not hunt deer, in Michigan, back then, until we were 14.





DecoySlayer said:


> Hunting was important, and VERY special.


If it was that special he would not have waited tell he was 14 and would have started bow hunting at 12.

Instead his priorities we're on small game.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Hunters Edge said:


> I really do not care what you think. It is obvious that decoyslayer post is contradicting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And, how was I going to get up north to hunt deer with a bow at 12? There were no deer down here and my dad did not hunt with a bow until I was 14. I could not drive until I was 16. Then I was bow hunting but would not chance missing gun season, by taking my one deer with a bow, unless it was a 97 point, LOL! 

I DID hunt small game with a bow, and carp.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

DecoySlayer said:


> And, how was I going to get up north to hunt deer with a bow at 12? There were no deer down here and my dad did not hunt with a bow until I was 14. I could not drive until I was 16. Then I was bow hunting but would not chance missing gun season, by taking my one deer with a bow, unless it was a 97 point, LOL!
> 
> I DID hunt small game with a bow, and carp.


Thats kind of my point. It falls on the parents taking the time or making the time. It is the main reason hunter retention is declining.

We can blame school, the economy etc etc. The main reason falls on the parents.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Hunters Edge said:


> Thats kind of my point. It falls on the parents taking the time or making the time. It is the main reason hunter retention is declining.
> 
> We can blame school, the economy etc etc. The main reason falls on the parents.



No, you MISSED the point. My dad took me hunting ALL the time. Hunting was not just "deer hunting". We hunted rabbit, pheasant, and other small game. This is FAR more to hunting than just deer hunting.

Right now, given the chance, I skip deer hunting to hunt ducks. It's more fun. The ONLY days that are reserved for deer are the first 3 days of gun.

My dad took me deer hunting as soon as he could. He could not afford a bow, until 1965. Besides, again, I would prefer to hunt small game than deer, except for the first couple of days of gun.

I used to hunt deer all the time, sometimes in 3 states a season. 30 - 40 days a year in good years. I did that because small game had mostly gone away by then and the area I lived in had sucky duck hunting.

I also hunted with my uncles and cousins, along with my dad, in PA. Deer and small game.

You got it ALL wrong.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

sniper said:


> In high school I had to run stairs every Monday at the beginning of basketball practice because I missed a lot of Saturday morning practices. It was worth every stair. Lol. Ironically I was in better shape than any one of my teammates.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I had to run track in football cleats for drinking on the bus after a football game. I am not buying the dad's didnt want there kids going so they could drink. My dad drank at home and hunting with me at age 14


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Hunters Edge said:


> Thats kind of my point. It falls on the parents taking the time or making the time. It is the main reason hunter retention is declining.
> 
> We can blame school, the economy etc etc. The main reason falls on the parents.


No, not bad parenting. The biggest reason for the decline in hunter numbers is that anywhere S of 10, there are houses put up along the road in every damn field and wood. The NLP is also much more developed. There is not nearly the opportunity for youth as there was in the 70's and even 80's. Used to be you could get permission to hunt a darn near any farm just asking. Todays youth can't because what areas are available are being leased out to the highest bidder, and younger folks can't compete with that.
My Dad taught us how to HUNT, No bait (he thought baiting was a disgrace, and disrespectful to your game to not even bother to figure out what IT wants to do when and where). Be one with your prey. Figure out its habits, where it goes why and when. Baiting also put people not on the same land al the time at a disadvantage as deer grew lazy, more stationary and less diurnal and more nocturnal. All of these factors make it tough for any younger folk to go off and hunt anything, much less deer. We are our own worst enemy.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

DecoySlayer said:


> And, how was I going to get up north to hunt deer with a bow at 12? There were no deer down here and my dad did not hunt with a bow until I was 14.


This was the reason given for not bowhunting and waiting tell you were 14 for gun season.

This is the same reason that today hunter retention is declining. Yes your dad hunted and when he went you went. Today the parents are not only a few are taking advantage of the special youth hunt. Many kids also in sports choose to play otherwise the next two games they are benched. Ultimately it falls squarely on the parents shoulders.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

ESOX said:


> No, not bad parenting. The biggest reason for the decline in hunter numbers is that anywhere S of 10, there are houses put up along the road in every damn field and wood. The NLP is also much more developed. There is not nearly the opportunity for youth as there was in the 70's and even 80's. Used to be you could get permission to hunt a darn near any farm just asking. Todays youth can't because what areas are available are being leased out to the highest bidder, and younger folks can't compete with that.
> My Dad taught us how to HUNT, No bait (he thought baiting was a disgrace, and disrespectful to your game to not even bother to figure out what IT wants to do when and where). Be one with your prey. Figure out its habits, where it goes why and when. Baiting also put people not on the same land al the time at a disadvantage as deer grew lazy, more stationary and less diurnal and more nocturnal. All of these factors make it tough for any younger folk to go off and hunt anything, much less deer. We are our own worst enemy.


Never said bad parenting. Those are your words. If a parent does not take the time or make the time to take a youth hunting, whose fault is it, the kids?


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

Hunters Edge said:


> If it was that special he would not have waited tell he was 14 and would have started bow hunting at 12.


What difference does the age at which someone starts bowhunting make? Too many variables for you to judge anyone's situation as a young teen. Though I'm sure it will not stop you, per usual.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

There was a member who was banned a few years ago, forgot his forum name, but this guy sounds exactly like him. Heaven help us all.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Dish7 said:


> What difference does the age at which someone starts bowhunting make? Too many variables for you to judge anyone's situation as a young teen. Though I'm sure it will not stop you, per usual.


Because your taking it out of context. I just used those two sentences showing they contradict each other. This is the complete post.


DecoySlayer said:


> Youths hunting, in my day, was a right of passage. It was, without a doubt, a family thing. We could not hunt deer, in Michigan, back then, until we were 14. Until that day we hunted small game DREAMING of the day we could go to camp with the men. It was a glorious day when it came. Hunting was important, and VERY special.


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

Hunters Edge said:


> Because your taking it out of context. I just used those two sentences showing they contradict each other. This is the complete post.


No, I understand the context, lol. I don't see the contradiction. Bowhunting was not as popular back then.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Hunters Edge said:


> This was the reason given for not bowhunting and waiting tell you were 14 for gun season.



AND bow hunting was not popular, money was an issue, AND, more importantly, there were OTHER THINGS TO HUNT! There is FAR more to hunting than just deer hunting. Agree with this, or not, the fact remains that baiting is not NEEDED to take a deer. It just makes it easier.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Dish7 said:


> No, I understand the context, lol. I don't see the contradiction. Bowhunting was not as popular back then.


It wasn’t popular for several reasons. Training wheels weren’t added to bows until the 70s, tree stands were a cobbled together affair and there was only one deer tag, in other words the easy button had not been invented by Al Gore yet.


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## cdacker (Jan 10, 2011)

one of my biggest hurdles in keeping my kids involved, not just hunting but fishing and other outdoor-related activities .... sports. Between school teams, travel teams and parents and coaches that seem to think that sports are the center of universe, it's been very difficult to find or make the time for hunting.
I had a seventh grade basketball coach tell me that if my son missed practice for deer camp that he would miss playing time .... seventh grade basketball. 
He didn't want to miss play time, so he missed deer camp.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Luv2hunteup said:


> It wasn’t popular for several reasons. Training wheels weren’t added to bows until the 70s, tree stands were a cobbled together affair and there was only one deer tag, in other words the easy button had not been invented by Al Gore yet.


Tree stands were not even legal.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

cdacker said:


> one of my biggest hurdles in keeping my kids involved, not just hunting but fishing and other outdoor-related activities .... sports. Between school teams, travel teams and parents and coaches that seem to think that sports are the center of universe, it's been very difficult to find or make the time for hunting.
> I had a seventh grade basketball coach tell me that if my son missed practice for deer camp that he would miss playing time .... seventh grade basketball.
> He didn't want to miss play time, so he missed deer camp.


It's sad to think that bouncing a ball is considered to be more important than spending time with family.


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

DecoySlayer said:


> I DID hunt small game with a bow, and carp.


I also did both. I went after rabbits with a bow long before I went after deer with a bow. Not only was that a riot, it was good preparation for hunting deer. When I began hunting everyone did small game hunting. I see very few doing that today.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

There are several reasons fewer people hunt small game. One, there is far less habitat for small game in many areas of the state, so, there is less small game. In some areas, there is no small game. The second reason, it's not on *TEEVEE* like rack hunting is. *TEEVEE* is everything.


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

For my family, uncles, cousins, etc...deer season was THEE season. Mind you, that season didn't start until November 15th. I grew up in rural northern MI, and I didn't now a single person who bow hunted until fall 2001 when I went to college. Fortunately I fell in with a group of bowhunters and they set me straight that first fall. 

As for sports...I missed lots of practice for hunting, but I didn't miss a second of playing time. My coaches liked to win. 

My wife and I have already decided, our kids will miss school for hunting, fishing, camping, etc. Truancy be dammed. Though sports were a huge part of both of our lives in school and college, we have no intention of making our kids play sports. If they ask to play, they have our full support. We've had some deep discussions and all of the years spent playing sports, looking 15 years later, we see no benefit in our lives due to that time investment in sports. We'd rather our kids invest their time in activities that will benefit them their whole lives. I never look back on my school days and say, "Man, I wished I played more sports." Just the opposite, it's now, "Man, I wish I got into archery before college, I wish I skipped more school to go fishing, camping, etc".


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

I still haven't seen a plausible explanations why Michigan is loosing hunters precipitously while other states, some nearby, are gaining hunters. What are those states like Pennsylvania, Missouri and Oklahoma doing differently than Michigan? Could it be that they have better quality deer hunting and are just offering hunters a better product for their time and money?


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

Trophy Specialist said:


> I still haven't seen a plausible explanations why Michigan is loosing hunters precipitously while other states, some nearby, are gaining hunters. What are those states like Pennsylvania, Missouri and Oklahoma doing differently than Michigan? Could it be that they have better quality deer hunting and are just offering hunters a better product for their time and money?


That is exactly it. 

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

Trophy Specialist said:


> I still haven't seen a plausible explanations why Michigan is loosing hunters precipitously while other states, some nearby, are gaining hunters. What are those states like Pennsylvania, Missouri and Oklahoma doing differently than Michigan? Could it be that they have better quality deer hunting and are just offering hunters a better product for their time and money?


I asked a similar question earlier in the thread and what transpired was 316 pages of excuses, rants, and whining. This is obviously not the place to have critical discussion about the state of deer hunting in Michigan. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

d_rek said:


> I asked a similar question earlier in the thread and what transpired was 316 pages of excuses, rants, and whining. This is obviously not the place to have critical discussion about the state of deer hunting in Michigan.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


People are going to rant and rave it’s a sensitive question. I don’t think the question is just that easily answered. It could be a combo of a lot of things. Pick which one suits u and go with that.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Trophy Specialist said:


> I still haven't seen a plausible explanations why Michigan is loosing hunters precipitously while other states, some nearby, are gaining hunters. What are those states like Pennsylvania, Missouri and Oklahoma doing differently than Michigan? Could it be that they have better quality deer hunting and are just offering hunters a better product for their time and money?


PA is LOSING hunters, not gaining them. 

Keep in mine that PA does not sell a "DEER" license, they sell a "HUNTING" license. It gives you a deer tag, small game tag and 2 turkey tags. Even with all of that, there are fewer hunters each year.

Why?

The Baby Boomers are aging out. Less small game to hunt. Degraded deer hunting on state land. Fewer deer sightings on state land. Young people not taking an interest in hunting or fishing for what ever reason.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

DecoySlayer said:


> PA is LOSING hunters, not gaining them.
> 
> Keep in mine that PA does not sell a "DEER" license, they sell a "HUNTING" license. It gives you a deer tag, small game tag and 2 turkey tags. Even with all of that, there are fewer hunters each year.
> 
> ...


That's not what was reported in the last issue of American Hunter. They said hunter numbers had increased in PA. Maybe giving hunters for bang for their buck is helping in PA with overall hunter numbers? Maybe its a combination of things. All I know is deer hunter numbers and overall hunter numbers in Michigan are plummeting faster than most states, while some are actually gaining hunter numbers. I suspect it's the same with fishing here too. I also guarantee that with this years round of unpopular and/or short sighted deer regulations that hunter numbers will certainly fall off even more than in recent years as will the deer kill. Take for instance in the U.P. Last year saw an increase in the deer kill, but it was made up primarily of 2+ year old bucks following a bad winter last year that saw low yearling deer numbers. Then we had another bad winter this year, that guarantees poor fawn carryover and production this year. So what does the DNR do? They increase antlerless quotas throughout the U.P. to reduce the herd beyond its already depressed state. The end result will be a pisspoor buck kill this year and for years to come and the inevitable further, precipitous decline in deer hunter numbers there.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

jr28schalm said:


> How did you know..lol


Smoke signals


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Wild Thing said:


> If ever there was a "Doubting Thomas" on this forum L & O - it would have to be you. Or maybe you are from the "Show Me" state?
> 
> My property line borders the McBroom farm - it has for the 25 years since I've owned it. Believe me - I know what is going on on this farm. You don't have a clue yet you seem to want to defend this guy.
> 
> ...


I definitely want to know how something like this might be done. Anyone doing this risks huge fines and prison time. Not many would consider it worth the risk. 2nd, while it would not be difficult to get a doe from another county or state, the odds it having CWD are not high. Anyone helping to transport a deer for a scheme like this also risks prison time.
It sure sounds like CDP's are probably keeping the herd in check on his farm, why risk going to prison ? You described illegal use of CDP's, what did the DNR find after you reported the farmer ? It sure sounds like they should have had enough evidence to prosecute.
If you're going to promote conspiracy theories or illegal actions, you should be ready to provide concrete evidence and not be concerned when someone asks for proof or a plausible way of the actions to occur. 
It would be easy to misuse CDP's. If you haven't reported this, why not ?
I'll believe the doe was from another state or from the LP when genetic testing proves that to be true. The reward doesn't even come close to making the risk worth it.

L & O


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

Liver and Onions said:


> I definitely want to know how something like this might be done. Anyone doing this risks huge fines and prison time. Not many would consider it worth the risk. 2nd, while it would not be difficult to get a doe from another county or state, the odds it having CWD are not high. Anyone helping to transport a deer for a scheme like this also risks prison time.
> It sure sounds like CDP's are probably keeping the herd in check on his farm, why risk going to prison ? You described illegal use of CDP's, what did the DNR find after you reported the farmer ? It sure sounds like they should have had enough evidence to prosecute.
> If you're going to promote conspiracy theories or illegal actions, you should be ready to provide concrete evidence and not be concerned when someone asks for proof or a plausible way of the actions to occur.
> It would be easy to misuse CDP's. If you haven't reported this, why not ?
> ...


I would never make claims like this if I couldn't back it up with the TRUTH! Particularly, when Ken McBrooms son, Ed, is our state senator. Do you think I'm crazy? Of course I have reported these violations to the DNR - several times. My neighbors have also reported violations although some have just given up at this point. I have made these reports at public meetings hosted by the DNR, to C.O.'s, to DNR Supervisors, DNR Biologists, and others as well so I'm not saying anything here that I wouldn't say face to face to Senator McBroom or his dad - and they know it as well.

The DNR knows very well what is going on on this farm - they have known it for decades - they just have never been able to do anything about it. 

"*I'll believe the doe was from another state or from the LP when genetic testing proves that to be true*." Like I said earlier - this sounds very similar to what "Doubting Thomas" said 2,000 years ago. 

Please don't ask me about this again L & O. I don't like being called a liar - which is essentially what you are trying to do without actually saying it. I try to live my life so I never have any reason to lie and I don't like liars myself.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Wild Thing said:


> I would never make claims like this if I couldn't back it up with the TRUTH! Particularly, when Ken McBrooms son, Ed, is our state senator. Do you think I'm crazy? Of course I have reported these violations to the DNR - several times. My neighbors have also reported violations although some have just given up at this point. I have made these reports at public meetings hosted by the DNR, to C.O.'s, to DNR Supervisors, DNR Biologists, and others as well so I'm not saying anything here that I wouldn't say face to face to Senator McBroom or his dad - and they know it as well.
> 
> The DNR knows very well what is going on on this farm - they have known it for decades - they just have never been able to do anything about it.
> 
> ...


 For What it's worth I think your the most respected guy on here


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I believe they are sa


jr28schalm said:


> For What it's worth I think your the most respected guy on here


I second that.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Third that.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

jr28schalm said:


> For What it's worth I think your the most respected guy on here


Suck up


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Wild Thing said:


> I would never make claims like this if I couldn't back it up with the TRUTH! Particularly, when Ken McBrooms son, Ed, is our state senator. Do you think I'm crazy? Of course I have reported these violations to the DNR - several times. My neighbors have also reported violations although some have just given up at this point. I have made these reports at public meetings hosted by the DNR, to C.O.'s, to DNR Supervisors, DNR Biologists, and others as well so I'm not saying anything here that I wouldn't say face to face to Senator McBroom or his dad - and they know it as well.
> 
> The DNR knows very well what is going on on this farm - they have known it for decades - they just have never been able to do anything about it.
> 
> ...


I put L&O on my ignor list long time ago redering him to irrelelsvsce.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> For What it's worth I think your the most respected guy on here





stickbow shooter said:


> I believe they are sa
> 
> I second that.





Waif said:


> Third that.





FREEPOP said:


> Suck up





Trophy Specialist said:


> I put L&O on my ignor list long time ago redering him to irrelelsvsce.


Thank you all for your votes of confidence. Nobody likes being called out...especially when you know the truth of the facts. I do understand that it may be difficult to believe anyone would stoop to this level, but like I said, based upon his past history, neither myself or many others in our community would be the least bit surprised. I honestly hope that eventually the truth of the matter will be known... There have been some 1,744 deer tested since the first positive showed up and all have been negative, so my sincere hope is that somehow we may dodge the bullet the same way that the state of New York did with no further positives. Only time will tell.

Thanks again. Your support is very much appreciated.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Wild Thing said:


> Thank you all for your votes of confidence. Nobody likes being called out...especially when you know the truth of the facts. I do understand that it may be difficult to believe anyone would stoop to this level, but like I said, based upon his past history, neither myself or many others in our community would be the least bit surprised. I honestly hope that eventually the truth of the matter will be known... There have been some 1,744 deer tested since the first positive showed up and all have been negative, so my sincere hope is that somehow we may dodge the bullet the same way that the state of New York did with no further positives. Only time will tell.
> 
> Thanks again. Your support is very much appreciated.


Just trying to keep on your good side for hunting privileges....
Seriously though , credit where due. Patience is half the battle sometimes. 

I have met L.&O. , and he can be communicated with much easier in person.
We didn't get on any conflicting hot topics despite the amount of time conversing.
That is telling ...
A not what you say ,as much as how you say it thing maybe....


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## Bearblade (Dec 30, 2005)

Here's a thought on this subject...maybe a part of it is the trend toward humanization of pets and transference of that towards animals in general. Dogs and cats and whatever are supreme family members now. The marketers advertise their food and comfort on a level that humanize animals beyond levels would have ever considered years ago.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Wild Thing said:


> This isn't as far-fetched as you may think L&O. If there is anyone in the world that would actually do the unthinkable ... it is Ken McBroom. While the DNR won't officially disclose the exact farm where the CWD positive was found, it is fairly common knowledge that it was on his farm. The McBroom mantra when it comes to deer management is "Kill Em All". And he means it - bucks, does, fawns..."Kill Em All". That is what he tells you when he hands out the crop damage permits. I would venture to say that there have probably been more deer killed illegally on his farm than anyplace else in the entire U.P.....maybe even the entire state.


Where can I get one of those sick deer?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

mbrewer said:


> Where can I get one of those sick deer?


Game ranches, bargain priced.


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## Sparky23 (Aug 15, 2007)

FREEPOP said:


> A far as my area of the southern, about six years ago we had a good case of EHD that lowered our numbers. Actually it happened two years in a row and I'm not certain that we didn't have a few more deer die of it after that, as our summers have been quite dry for a while.
> I know what I see spring, summer, winter and fall around my area and it's been a couple years now that we let the does go. Things are looking much better, so far this year, so there will most likely be some on the menu. With CWD it will move me towards
> 
> I know the area I hunt and it's population. Much better than the DNR.
> I don't pretend to know the entire lower peninsula or state.


 I agree 100% with that. Some areas still havent made it back. Others did quickly. I didnt take any does from a few property's for a few years untill I was happy with cameras and personal sightings. I slacked on the hardest hit property and am now back to being overrun with does.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Wild Thing said:


> ........
> Please don't ask me about this again L & O. I don't like being called a liar - which is essentially what you are trying to do without actually saying it. I try to live my life so I never have any reason to lie and I don't like liars myself.


I never called you a liar and I never thought you were lying. Bringing in a CWD from another state or another county is not an easy crime to commit. It's a very serious crime and this person has little to gain since, according to you, he has CDP's and I'm guessing also DMAP's. A lot of deer might have to be killed yearly, but who would risk prison time because of that ? 
If you can provide a link to any details about the CWD deer, please post. I would be interested in who actually shot the deer.
Like I said, when it's proven that this deer was brought in from outside your county is when I will believe it. Call me a doubting a Thomas, could not care, coffee shop rumors and theories are a long ways from facts. 
Still not understanding how the DNR wasn't able to prosecute for misuse of CDP's with the evidence you had.

L & O


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

Trophy Specialist said:


> I put L&O on my ignor list long time ago redering him to irrelelsvsce.


I've never understood why anybody would use the ignore list short of being harassed, in which case I'm sure the mods could step in. Difference of opinion, no. JMO.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Dish7 said:


> I've never understood why anybody would use the ignore list short of being harassed, in which case I'm sure the mods could step in. Difference of opinion, no. JMO.


If I get tired of dealing with someone on here's repeated BS, then I put them on the list and they are told why too. As I stated, it makes them irrelevant. In my opinion, if someone that is knowingly on someone's Ignore List still cowardly attacks the person behind their backs, then they should be banned from the site.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Trophy Specialist said:


> If I get tired of dealing with someone on here's repeated BS, then I put them on the list and they are told why too. As I stated, it makes them irrelevant. In my opinion, if someone that is knowingly on someone's Ignore List still cowardly attacks the person behind their backs, then they should be banned from the site.


So, do you have a list of the people that have you on ignore so you won't bash them?


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

FREEPOP said:


> So, do you have a list of the people that have you on ignore so you won't bash them?


Hopefully they would tell me, but to my knowledge, nobody has ignore listed me.


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## Dale Malusi (Oct 27, 2018)

An ignore list can take a mediocre forum and make it a good one.


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