# Windmill Ruining my Lease.



## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Where do i sign up for one of these. After lunch i could just look at it for hours


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Remington441 said:


> Ok.. we just finished the 1 for invenergy between St Louis and Mt Pleasant.. That 1 is starting in June.. Adding on to the ones in Ithaca/Breckinridge.. We aren’t doing that 1..
> 
> Rosebush/Clare is getting 140-160 Turbines starting in fall
> 
> Middleton- Carson City is getting 65 in late 2019-2020..


Remington you said “we” in your above post. How are you associated with windmills? Just curious. 


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sniper said:


> Remington you said “we” in your above post. How are you associated with windmills? Just curious.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Company I work for Builds the Farms for Invenergy, Consumers, DTE.. etc. 

Roads, Foundations and Erection Of Tower.. Currently Starting the Farm In Unionville as I type this..


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

In all seriousness, where do you sign up for this kind of stuff


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

That's got to be pretty cool to watch them put one up.


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## Captain (Feb 11, 2000)

They just went up last year around my lease in Isabella county. The closet one is West of south border about 1/4 mile....Thing still startles me every time I come out of the woods or the trailers in camp and see it turning..


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## retired dundo (Jul 21, 2015)

Wild Thing said:


> Several years back I heard that landowners were being paid 10K/wind turbine/year. As much as they suck...I could probably be persuaded to lease my land for maybe a few dozen of them...


For that much I would let them put one in my garden.Noisewouldnt bother me Iam half deaf


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> In all seriousness, where do you sign up for this kind of stuff


The properties they select have to be near a grid where they want to tie in to...and, of course, be high ground, clear of trees, and with good wind flow. And they have to be able to get the huge equipment to the lease. I watched them off load these turbine blades from the SS Badger in Ludington - those things are huge. They need special permits and police escorts to get them where they are going.

Good luck Jr.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

They had to repave the radius on from the road on exit 158 to Pere Marquette highway north of Pentwater so the trucks carrying the blades could make that corner.

"They are uglier than a politician."

So is the big orange plume of sulphur and mercury you can see stretched out for miles from the stacks at Consumer's big coal plant in Port Sheldon. Since they put the scrubbers in at least it doesn't go all the way to the horizon any more.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Wild Thing said:


> The properties they select have to be near a grid where they want to tie in to...and, of course, be high ground, clear of trees, and with good wind flow. And they have to be able to get the huge equipment to the lease. I watched them off load these turbine blades from the SS Badger in Ludington - those things are huge. They need special permits and police escorts to get them where they are going.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck Jr.


There really isn’t too many places we can’t get equipment and parts to. You would be shocked to see some places we’ve built farms.. Mountains of WV where we had to blast the top 20-40 ft off of the Ridge top..

The new turbines require little wind to operate and at 300’-400’ there is always Wind..

As far as hurting Hunting, I’ve watched 170”+ bucks come out and feed in Illinois and Ohio while we were working.. Hunting after work on sites that were in Progress.. People will always find a reason to complain even where there isn’t one..


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

We were approached about putting in a wind farm on our Thumb property. Once the windmills reach life expectancy they are abandon in place. There is no practical way to get rid of the caisson. That is not the legacy we want to leave behind. A couple miles of windmills on Saginaw Bay would be an eyesore for all our neighbors.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Luv2hunteup said:


> We were approached about putting in a wind farm on our Thumb property. Once the windmills reach life expectancy they are abandon in place. There is no practical way to get rid of the caisson. That is not the legacy we want to leave behind. A couple miles of windmills on Saginaw Bay would be an eyesore for all our neighbors.


That’s not Correct.. There is Millions Of Dollars Set Back on Project for this.. After the 30 Year Life Expectancy/Warranty.. There are 2 Options, extend the Lease or Remove Turbine and Restore ground to Original State.. Turbines are exceeding their life currently and Technology and Quality are Vastly superior with Today’s Manufacturers compared to 25 years ago..

The Pedestal is cut off and Removed.. pretty simple.. only 4 Ft tall and 18’ diameter, easily removed and restored..


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

jr28schalm said:


> In all seriousness, where do you sign up for this kind of stuff


Right place right time JR. You hafta own land in an area where they wanna set up one of these wind farms. 

You can’t go wrong buying dirt. Since I bought my piece in 2002 the investment opportunities offers have been many. Windmills, oil, logging, ag leases, crp, hunting leases, hap programs, property investors. Being a deer hunting nut has probably squashed a lot of money in my bank account. Lol. Can’t buy brains I guess. 


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

sniper said:


> Right place right time JR. You hafta own land in an area where they wanna set up one of these wind farms.
> 
> You can’t go wrong buying dirt. Since I bought my piece in 2002 the investment opportunities offers have been many. Windmills, oil, logging, ag leases, crp, hunting leases, hap programs, property investors. Being a deer hunting nut has probably squashed a lot of money in my bank account. Lol. Can’t buy brains I guess.
> 
> ...


Well hope the weed farmers atleast hit me up. Or solar guys and I can try using free electric without getting caught again


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> Well hope the weed farmers atleast hit me up. Or solar guys and I can try using free electric without getting caught again


I was thinking of converting my food plots to Hops as I understand there is a shortage with all of the micro-breweries opening up. Still....sounds like a wind farm would be easier for me


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## Retrobird (Jan 9, 2019)

Wild Thing said:


> Several years back I heard that landowners were being paid 10K/wind turbine/year. As much as they suck...I could probably be persuaded to lease my land for maybe a few dozen of them...


In my experience, the number is rumored to be 30-50% of that. To say nothing about the property rights forfeited. For many farmers the payment did not equal the loss of productive land and possibility of losing even more of a crop if the windmill needed work or had to be taken down. Payments amounts seem to be top secret, part of the agreement most likely.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Retrobird said:


> In my experience, the number is rumored to be 30-50% of that. To say nothing about the property rights forfeited. For many farmers the payment did not equal the loss of productive land and possibility of losing even more of a crop if the windmill needed work or had to be taken down. Payments amounts seem to be top secret, part of the agreement most likely.


I can guarantee that it’s not less than 10,000 if they sign a yearly lease.. When I Started in 2006, that was the Number.. Farmers get Paid Crop Loss And Still are Able to Harvest Crops.. They lose very little land and are compensated for Future crop loss.. You might need to find a new source for you info, because it couldn’t be more Incorrect


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## stickman1978 (Sep 15, 2011)

Captain said:


> They just went up last year around my lease in Isabella county. The closet one is West of south border about 1/4 mile....Thing still startles me every time I come out of the woods or the trailers in camp and see it turning..


You in the Eastern part of the county?


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## Retrobird (Jan 9, 2019)

Luv2hunteup said:


> We were approached about putting in a wind farm on our Thumb property. Once the windmills reach life expectancy they are abandon in place. There is no practical way to get rid of the caisson. That is not the legacy we want to leave behind. A couple miles of windmills on Saginaw Bay would be an eyesore for all our neighbors.


IMO, they are bad deal for the people of this state. They only turn about 30% of the time at a cost far greater than any other power source. Throw in noise, bird decimation and the total ruination of the landscape as well the cost to take them down. It all adds up to a lose-lose proposition. It windmills are all that why does the government have to subsidize them?


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

Retrobird said:


> In my experience, the number is rumored to be 30-50% of that. To say nothing about the property rights forfeited. For many farmers the payment did not equal the loss of productive land and possibility of losing even more of a crop if the windmill needed work or had to be taken down. Payments amounts seem to be top secret, part of the agreement most likely.


Could be Retrobird. I have no first hand knowledge either. This is what I was told by folks in the neighborhood when I was running my charter business down in Ludington.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Wild Thing said:


> I was thinking of converting my food plots to Hops as I understand there is a shortage with all of the micro-breweries opening up. Still....sounds like a wind farm would be easier for me


The 30 acres across the road from my home was purchased and may be turned into a hop and raspberry farm. I smiled when the new owner told me his plans. It’s sandy highly uneven forested land. I don’t see it happening in my lifetime or his for that matter. It’s on the bottom of a 50 foot ridge that faces north. I wish him the best of luck. I feel he will make a small fortune but only by starting with a big fortune.


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## Retrobird (Jan 9, 2019)

Remington441 said:


> I can guarantee that it’s not less than 10,000 if they sign a yearly lease.. When I Started in 2006, that was the Number.. Farmers get Paid Crop Loss And Still are Able to Harvest Crops.. They lose very little land and are compensated for Future crop loss.. You might need to find a new source for you info, because it couldn’t be more Incorrect


I don't think so, these are the numbers offered to a relative who owns and farms 7,000 acres. This was early on in the windmill game and things may have changed. This particular individual would not be interested regardless of the payment.


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## Captain (Feb 11, 2000)

stickman1978 said:


> You in the Eastern part of the county?


Yes County line road is our East border....


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

sniper said:


> Right place right time JR. You hafta own land in an area where they wanna set up one of these wind farms.
> 
> You can’t go wrong buying dirt. Since I bought my piece in 2002 the investment opportunities offers have been many. Windmills, oil, logging, ag leases, crp, hunting leases, hap programs, property investors. Being a deer hunting nut has probably squashed a lot of money in my bank account. Lol. Can’t buy brains I guess.
> 
> ...


Do u think there's a chance the construction could pinch/funnel the deer for ya?? Could be great if it does


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## stickman1978 (Sep 15, 2011)

Had a house built on a vacant 20 next to mine. They put the house right where the deer always used to feed. Now I know where the deer won't be.


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## brewster (May 30, 2010)

Wild Thing said:


> I was thinking of converting my food plots to Hops as I understand there is a shortage with all of the micro-breweries opening up. Still....sounds like a wind farm would be easier for me


If you're going to grow hops, make sure you're close enough to a processor to make it worthwhile.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Remington441 said:


> I can guarantee that it’s not less than 10,000 if they sign a yearly lease.. When I Started in 2006, that was the Number.. Farmers get Paid Crop Loss And Still are Able to Harvest Crops.. They lose very little land and are compensated for Future crop loss.. You might need to find a new source for you info, because it couldn’t be more Incorrect


Remington you are spot on with your post above. I just recently had a lengthy conversation with a rep from Invenergy discussing my lease and everything that it involves. Anything they touch in the process of erecting a windmill they have to replace and then some. I believe that part is government regulated. 


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## brewster (May 30, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> There really isn’t too many places we can’t get equipment and parts to. You would be shocked to see some places we’ve built farms.. Mountains of WV where we had to blast the top 20-40 ft off of the Ridge top..
> 
> The new turbines require little wind to operate and at 300’-400’ there is always Wind..
> 
> As far as hurting Hunting, I’ve watched 170”+ bucks come out and feed in Illinois and Ohio while we were working.. Hunting after work on sites that were in Progress.. People will always find a reason to complain even where there isn’t one..



I've really liked your input on this as we are in a planning area for DTE. 

Do they really keep the towers 1/4 mile from a house barns etc.?


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

brewster said:


> I've really liked your input on this as we are in a planning area for DTE.
> 
> Do they really keep the towers 1/4 mile from a house barns etc.?


I was just told 1200 feet from any occupied dwelling. 


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> Do u think there's a chance the construction could pinch/funnel the deer for ya?? Could be great if it does


Brian didn’t think of this. It’s possible depending on exactly where they put it. The field their building it is a 22 acre hidden ag field that borders thick bedding to the south (neighbors), woods to the west (ours), with a thick tree line and the other neighbors ag field to the east. Maybe I need to be out there to tell them exactly where to put it. Lol


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## Jimbo 09 (Jan 28, 2013)

We had our best season the year embridge put a new pipeline through the middle of our hunting property. All the noise and equipment didn’t bother the deer at all.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Wild Thing said:


> I was thinking of converting my food plots to Hops as I understand there is a shortage with all of the micro-breweries opening up. Still....sounds like a wind farm would be easier for me


I heard same on Hops. My uncle in Harbour springs that does beer was trying to convince me. Hemp infused beer and I am all ears thou


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

My best friend has four on the farm. They've been nothing but outgoing for them, keeping up seasonal roads, farm entrances.

They even builta big softball complex in the village. They did have major problems when construction was being done as people were jacking the copper.

As far as hunting. His farm used to hold ducks and geese, now itsrareiity we hunt there.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> I heard same on Hops. My uncle in Harbour springs that does beer was trying to convince me. Hemp infused beer and I am all ears thou


A wee bit too much hemp infused beer and you might not even be able to find your ears! FM


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## FISHMANMARK (Jun 11, 2007)

DEDGOOSE said:


> His farm used to hold ducks and geese, now itsrareiity we hunt there.


I've seen the tracking maps for ducks tagged with location transmitters. They avoid the wind farm and skirt the edges for the most part. That's part of the reason the USFW service blocked windmills from being within 3 miles of the great lakes.


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## BigW (Dec 29, 2016)

In regards to setbacks and reclamation rules, do a search for 'wind ordinance + township name' on the internet to see what's on the books for your local townships. They are different for each township except where the whole county comes together to write one ordinance.
For the record, I'd rather discuss politics and religion with someone versus wind turbines. Talk about an emotional topic!


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> They had to repave the radius on from the road on exit 158 to Pere Marquette highway north of Pentwater so the trucks carrying the blades could make that corner.
> 
> "They are uglier than a politician."
> 
> So is the big orange plume of sulphur and mercury you can see stretched out for miles from the stacks at Consumer's big coal plant in Port Sheldon. Since they put the scrubbers in at least it doesn't go all the way to the horizon any more.


Never said otherwise. The one big difference it that the coal fired plants are reliable. They don't have to wait for wind.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Retrobird said:


> I don't think so, these are the numbers offered to a relative who owns and farms 7,000 acres. This was early on in the windmill game and things may have changed. This particular individual would not be interested regardless of the payment.


Well.. There is this thing called Negotiating.. It’s the Same with Pipelines, Cell Towers And Wind Turbines.. In 2006, Landowners were getting 10k plus per year/ Per Turbine... I know this because I was there when my parents signed the contract and I do their taxes.. It’s not from Rumor or Hearsay.. 

There are a few options, Cash/ % of Electricity Produced and Sold.. It’s possible that was the option given..


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

brewster said:


> I've really liked your input on this as we are in a planning area for DTE.
> 
> Do they really keep the towers 1/4 mile from a house barns etc.?


All depends on setback laws.. You do have input for access road placement and Turbine to some extent.. We meet with farmers and adjust the road if it helps with crop rows etc.. You have flexibility..


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## aquaalf (May 28, 2017)

There is a lot of bad information, mis-information, and good information on the subject. I have followed this thread to be better informed, thanks to all who contribute.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

I am sure if they make it look like a couple bottles of crown spinning in the sky o.p will sign up


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sniper said:


> Just found out that construction on our hunting lease (which is our neighbor) starts this month. They start with building a road that leads back 400 yds back off the main road to where the windmill is to be built. Construction of the actual windmill starts Oct 1. Go figure. 100 acres of great hunting down the tubes this season. We’re bummed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure about about Aristio, that who is Building your Windfarm, but we always shutdown work for 1st and Sometimes 2nd day of Deer Season. So we don’t disrupt hunting..


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## retired dundo (Jul 21, 2015)

Remington441 said:


> Not sure about about Aristio, that who is Building your Windfarm, but we always shutdown work for 1st and Sometimes 2nd day of Deer Season. So we don’t disrupt hunting..


Yep when they were in Huron county by us they did not work the first couple days of gun season.In fact Iam not sure but I think it was Evan longer.I put my pop up about 100 yards from the w ind mill on fence line and shot nice buck second day.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

jr28schalm said:


> I am sure if they make it look like a couple bottles of crown spinning in the sky o.p will sign up












Lmfao! Where’s the pen!



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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Remington441 said:


> Not sure about about Aristio, that who is Building your Windfarm, but we always shutdown work for 1st and Sometimes 2nd day of Deer Season. So we don’t disrupt hunting..


That would be nice. That’s not Aristeo construction out of Livonia Michigan is it??


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sniper said:


> That would be nice. That’s not Aristeo construction out of Livonia Michigan is it??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Yes.. Spelling was Off..


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Remington441 said:


> Yes.. Spelling was Off..


Wow ok. I know a couple guys in that firm. I see I’m gonna have to make a couple phone calls. Lol


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sniper said:


> Wow ok. I know a couple guys in that firm. I see I’m gonna have to make a couple phone calls. Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I see that someone mentioned Birds in this thread.. I hear that all the Time.. I’ve Worked on 34 Windfarms in 2 Countries and 7 States.. I have yet to see a dead bird, well I did Hit a Pheasant on my way to Caro 3 weeks ago, not sure if that counts as a Casualty Of a Wind Turbine???? Wonder if there will be any Boycotting of Chevy since I hit it with my Truck??


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## Sportingman1954 (Jan 31, 2015)

I have a friend who owns
about 12,000 acres here and
their in the U.P. and Northern
L.P. I have been to the top of
a 400 ft wind generator on a
tour .... Wow... My buddy lives
in B.V.I. owns 9 acres there and
comes home to the U.P. every yr
a few times , deer season, open
- ing trout and grouse, he told me he has land in 37 counties in
Michigan,and the wind generators
made him a milti millionare...
He fishes , hunts a bit and travels
the world. He told me hates
the wind generators but they saved him and his farms .and the
bread was amazing.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Destroying habitat never makes sense. I have seen entire mountain tops stripped of trees so those monsters can be put up. Roads, where there were no roads. Watersheds messed up.

Land posted that never was before, because the owners don't want people near them.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> Destroying habitat never makes sense. I have seen entire mountain tops stripped of trees so those monsters can be put up. Roads, where there were no roads. Watersheds messed up.
> 
> Land posted that never was before, because the owners don't want people near them.


No matter what is done, by anyone on this Earth, 100% of the People will never be satisfied.. There will always be a few people that will complain just to complain.. Hopefully their lives will improve to the point that something so trivial in the grand scheme of life as a Windmill won’t impact them.. Aliens aren’t hiding inside them, they don’t cause cancer, not sure how a watershed is messed up by a foundation that’s only 8 ft in the ground, but ...


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

All I can say is that these things must be pretty darn efficient if they pay $10k/year to have them on a property. Excluding construction costs, if the average household electric bill is about $75/month a turbine would have to supply electricity to about 135 households just to break even..
<----<<<


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Joe Archer said:


> All I can say is that these things must be pretty darn efficient if they pay $10k/year to have them on a property. Excluding construction costs, if the average household electric bill is about $75/month a turbine would have to supply electricity to about 135 households just to break even..
> <----<<<


From what I have been told.. They take close to 7-8 years to Pay for themselves.. a 2.5 Mw Turbine can produce enough for close to 1200 homes.


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

DecoySlayer said:


> Destroying habitat never makes sense. I have seen entire mountain tops stripped of trees so those monsters can be put up. Roads, where there were no roads. Watersheds messed up.
> 
> Land posted that never was before, because the owners don't want people near them.


Most of the stripped mountain tops were done by coal mining companies then when when the coal was done they leased the land for wind turbines. Wife's family gave me th tour


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

retired dundo said:


> For that much I would let them put one in my garden.Noisewouldnt bother me Iam half deaf



Which half?


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Joe Archer said:


> All I can say is that these things must be pretty darn efficient if they pay $10k/year to have them on a property. Excluding construction costs, if the average household electric bill is about $75/month a turbine would have to supply electricity to about 135 households just to break even..
> <----<<<


Joe you need to come out of the 1970’s like your avatar. . My average electric bill a month in surburbia is about $160. 


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

sniper said:


> Joe you need to come out of the 1970’s like your avatar. . My average electric bill a month in surburbia is about $160.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


How many people in your home ? The 2 of us are below the average that Joe posted.

L & O


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## retired dundo (Jul 21, 2015)

QDMAMAN said:


> Which half?


They could use as much as they wanted


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Joe Archer said:


> All I can say is that these things must be pretty darn efficient if they pay $10k/year to have them on a property. Excluding construction costs, if the average household electric bill is about $75/month a turbine would have to supply electricity to about 135 households just to break even..
> <----<<<


The average monthly electric bill in Michigan was $108/month in 2013. 
It's well over $75 in 2019.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

sniper said:


> Joe you need to come out of the 1970’s like your avatar. . My average electric bill a month in surburbia is about $160.


My electric bill is ~100-150 in the winter, ~250-300 in the hottest months.

...but then, I have about 300 sq. ft. that are heated with electric, an electric dryer, and an electric stove.

My LOW combined gas/electric bills are about $200/month - going up to $400-450 in the most expensive months.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

sniper said:


> Joe you need to come out of the 1970’s like your avatar. . My average electric bill a month in surburbia is about $160.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Average about $120/month up here.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

I did say "*IF* the average household monthly electric bill is about $75/month ...."
Mine ranges from $75 - $100 so I took a shot. Wouldn't be the first time I have ever missed.
Looks like I flunked math anyway. If average is $100/month x 12 months = $1200 per year. A windmill would break even (excluding construction costs) after only about 8 households!
<----<<<


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

pescadero said:


> ........
> 
> ...but then, I have about 300 sq. ft. that are heated with electric, an electric dryer, and an electric stove.
> 
> ...........


Any reason that you didn't convert to a gas dryer the last time you purchased ?

L & O


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

micooner said:


> Most of the stripped mountain tops were done by coal mining companies then when when the coal was done they leased the land for wind turbines. Wife's family gave me th tour



I can show you an entire ridge line, that was never stripped for coal, or anything else, that are now nude, monsters all along it, and the top naked, for miles.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Remington441 said:


> not sure how a watershed is messed up by a foundation that’s only 8 ft in the ground, but


Streams were cut off, some stopped flowing. 

Then there is the problem is that one ridge line is right on the path of the golden eagle migration line.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Liver and Onions said:


> Any reason that you didn't convert to a gas dryer the last time you purchased ?
> 
> L & O


No gas hook up in dryer location, and the last time I purchased was never... this is the dryer that was in the house when we purchased it 15 years ago. 

In fact... after 21 years of owning a home in total - I've never purchased a dryer.


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

DecoySlayer said:


> I can show you an entire ridge line, that was never stripped for coal, or anything else, that are now nude, monsters all along it, and the top naked, for miles.


i don't doubt what your saying.i just don't think one is worse than the other. When man turns the bulldozers loose nothing is preserved. Jmho


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Liver and Onions said:


> How many people in your home ? The 2 of us are below the average that Joe posted.
> 
> L & O


L&O I have 4 in my household and a hot tub I run all year. That hot tub was figured @ $30-50 a month depending on the month. I’m easily over $200 a month running AC in the the summer. 1800 sq ft home. 


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Joe Archer said:


> I did say "*IF* the average household monthly electric bill is about $75/month ...."
> Mine ranges from $75 - $100 so I took a shot. Wouldn't be the first time I have ever missed.
> Looks like I flunked math anyway. If average is $100/month x 12 months = $1200 per year. A windmill would break even (excluding construction costs) after only about 8 households!
> <----<<<


What are you talking About Breaking even..The Turbines cost around 2.5 Million.. Breaking even has nothing to do about the Yearly lease to landowner..


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

micooner said:


> i don't doubt what your saying.i just don't think one is worse than the other. When man turns the bulldozers loose nothing is preserved. Jmho


The problem with wind, is that it is not reliable, and it takes up more land per KW hour than "traditional" forms of generation.

I am not opposed to wind, solar, etc. Hydro destroys river systems, all dams do.

My belief is that the entire idea of bulk generation and transport of the product has out lived it's usefulness. There is a minimum of a 10% loss in the transmission of the product.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> The problem with wind, is that it is not reliable, and it takes up more land per KW hour than "traditional" forms of generation.
> 
> I am not opposed to wind, solar, etc. Hydro destroys river systems, all dams do.
> 
> My belief is that the entire idea of bulk generation and transport of the product has out lived it's usefulness. There is a minimum of a 10% loss in the transmission of the product.


I hate to be the bearer of Bad News. But DTE and consumers have around 16 more Wind Farms Slated for Construction in Michigan the next 5 years..


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Remington441 said:


> I hate to be the bearer of Bad News. But DTE and consumers have around 16 more Wind Farms Slated for Construction in Michigan the next 5 years..


Well aware of that. I know I am stuck with them. Don't try to pretend that they are saving the planet. It's bunk. It's just making a very small number of people rich, and little more.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> Well aware of that. I know I am stuck with them. Don't try to pretend that they are saving the planet. It's bunk. It's just making a very small number of people rich, and little more.


Where did I ever Say that.. no need to invent things to prove a point.. I built Coal Plants, worked in Nuke Plants and On Gas Pipelines.. Don’t Care either way.. Like I said before, 100% of the People will never be happy no matter what you Do..


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

You are right, it will not make everyone happy. These monsters will come back to bite us on the butt, and the ones they will bite the hardest are those in here that push them the most. 

Luckily, I won't be hurt as much, other than the cost, because by the time the worst of it comes to past, I won't be here.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> You are right, it will not make everyone happy. These monsters will come back to bite us on the butt, and the ones they will bite the hardest are those in here that push them the most.
> 
> Luckily, I won't be hurt as much, other than the cost, because by the time the worst of it comes to past, I won't be here.


I was Born and Raised in Western Pa, 4 coal plants within 30 Miles, pollution, Coal trucks killing people every month in crashes, 100s of acres of Destroyed land for plant, 100s more acres per plant destroyed for Fly ash dumps polluting water, destroying streams, polluting the air..


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Yep, not saying different. My dad was a coal miner in western PA. My both my grandfathers were. My dad's dad was killed, along with 38 others, in an explosion, in western PA, in 1962.

Coal is not my first choice, how ever, it is still needed. 

I am not opposed to wind, as long as it does NOT wipe out habitat, or do harm. Trading unreliable generation, less capacity, for equal acreage, etc, makes no sense. 

I still contend that the entire idea, of bulk generation, and transportation of the product, is out dated and is being perpetuated by power companies buying off politicians, to maintain their monopoly.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

DecoySlayer said:


> Yep, not saying different. My dad was a coal miner in western PA. My both my grandfathers were. My dad's dad was killed, along with 38 others, in an explosion, in western PA, in 1962.
> 
> Coal is not my first choice, how ever, it is still needed.
> 
> ...


Don’t forget ruining someone’s deer season to. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sniper said:


> Don’t forget ruining someone’s deer season to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Think of it as saving you Money.. 

You are Welcome, 

The Windmill


----------



## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

sniper said:


> Don’t forget ruining someone’s deer season to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


My grandfather was killed during deer season, in PA. My dad, and uncles, tried to talk him into staying up "the mountain" and miss a couple of days of work. I wish he had. I never got to hunt deer with him, only small game. I was the only grandchild who did.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Remington441 said:


> Think of it as saving you Money..
> 
> You are Welcome,
> 
> The Windmill


What part of western PA? My family is from around Uniontown. Another branch of the family from around Cresson, in Cambria County. My dad was born in Dean. They moved to Philips, a "patch" outside of Uniontown in the early '30's, one of my remaining uncles, and a cousin still live there.

I used to live in Oil City.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> What part of western PA? My family is from around Uniontown. Another branch of the family from around Cresson, in Cambria County. My dad was born in Dean. They moved to Philips, a "patch" outside of Uniontown in the early '30's, one of my remaining uncles, and a cousin still live there.
> 
> I used to live in Oil City.


Born in Johnstown.. Permanent home is in Indiana, Pa..


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Remington441 said:


> Think of it as saving you Money..
> 
> You are Welcome,
> 
> The Windmill


Hey Rem generally how close are windmills built to one another and what determines the distance between them?? With my neighbor right across the road getting one I wonder if I would even be a candidate? The rep from Invenergy did ask me if I wanted one. 


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Remington441 said:


> Born in Johnstown.. Permanent home is in Indiana, Pa..


Our cabin, when it was still there, was up on Mt. Davis, less than a mile, through the woods, to the high point marker. 

We used to have a good friend, here in Michigan, that was from Johnstown. He is no longer with us.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sniper said:


> Hey Rem generally how close are windmills built to one another and what determines the distance between them?? With my neighbor right across the road getting one I wonder if I would even be a candidate? The rep from Invenergy did ask me if I wanted one.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


It varies.. Depends on Winds, Direction..etc.. I cant say that there is an actual limit, but I’ve seen them within a 1000-1500ft of each other roughly.. That’s a Guess.


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## Sikk (Jan 4, 2018)

They must not be able to put them near airports. If you don’t want them near your property, put in a grass airport and buy a Cessna.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Sikk said:


> They must not be able to put them near airports. If you don’t want them near your property, put in a grass airport and buy a Cessna.


Depends on Class Of Airport.. Different setbacks and Different height of turbine near airports.. Grass airport and Cessna won’t do it.. Better get a bigger Tinfoil Hat


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## jakeo (Sep 14, 2004)

Honestly think my uncle would hate me if I had one because the glue for his wig is cheap but........(wink)
In 1983 my buddy had purchased 5 acres in Monroe County, had a modular placed on existing foundation and then the cell phone company came and made offer. They wanted to build a prvt road to get to tower and would maintain his long drive. I remember the figure of 40k well as that's what I paid for my first home. He asked my opinion and I stated I needed more detail but cell phones were hot BUT with my luck they would die so I suggested taking $$ upfront. Long story but a good one was he took it, invested it and heard he sent his boys through school on their dime.
Back when his "bride" allowed him to associate me(( :tsk) I found that he only regretted setting a concrete price as cell companies sold the site many times but he had no recourse.
I would cut wood off his and neighbors property and the tower guys if around always helped and treated the property as if it was theirs. Winters they plowed his drives and were gentleman.It's been awhile since I have been up there but I wish I could have one put up in Toledo city limits....My yard.:lol:. I know neighbors tree would be trimmed..................LMAO.


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## Personal Business (Jun 7, 2018)

Exit Surveys of the deer seem to be big fans of the windmill turbines. The white noise generated from the turning turbines lulls the deer toward a deeper sleep. The deer mention they have more energy in the morning, more than normal.


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## JasonSlayer (Aug 4, 2009)

sniper said:


> Yep waif wildthing is correct. They pay 10k a year depending on the size of the windmill. They’ll have 3 different sizes in our area with the tallest being 400’. The base at 300 and the blade is a hundred foot. I was told they have to reconstruct intersections of streets just to make turns with the trucks and trailers hauling the equipment. Totally crazy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


That's b.s. snipe, I drive truck and I see how that over sized equipment is hauled. They actually have a steerable axle on the back of the trl so they can lead it it around, seen it. Dont believe everything on the net


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

JasonSlayer said:


> That's b.s. snipe, I drive truck and I see how that over sized equipment is hauled. They actually have a steerable axle on the back of the trl so they can lead it it around, seen it. Dont believe everything on the net


The reps from Invenergy (windmill co) told me this reconstruction stuff. Not Joe Blow from the corner cafe. 


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sniper said:


> The reps from Invenergy (windmill co) told me this reconstruction stuff. Not Joe Blow from the corner cafe.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


They make temporary a radius with sand and stone.. When the job is done, you wouldnt know what was done if you hadn’t seen it with your eyes.. Drive down to St. Louis, Mi.. Invenergy Job Finished last year.. 65 Turbines delivered.. Not 1 Road intersection was “ Reconstructed”.. You are not understanding what they are talking about, and depended on who is talking to you, it’s possible they have never seen a Jobsite being built except from their office..

And Yes the Delivery trucks have Axles in rear that steer also..

** Consumers will Have 14 people in their Jobsite Trailer for this Project, I believe 3 of them have ever got Dirt on their boots, and they are the ones who talk to landowners. So, anything they explain to someone is not with“ Construction “ knowledge... 

Remove “Tinfoil” Hat.. I will Take Pictures on Monday and Post what is ACTUALLY done to the roads.. A Radius is built thru part of a landowners property and removed after Turbines are delivered.. Landowner is compensated for radius even if they don’t get a Turbine..


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Remington441 said:


> They make temporary a radius with sand and stone.. When the job is done, you wouldnt know what was done if you hadn’t seen it with your eyes.. Drive down to St. Louis, Mi.. Invenergy Job Finished last year.. 65 Turbines delivered.. Not 1 Road intersection was “ Reconstructed”.. You are not understanding what they are talking about, and depended on who is talking to you, it’s possible they have never seen a Jobsite being built except from their office..
> 
> And Yes the Delivery trucks have Axles in rear that steer also..
> 
> ...


I really wasn’t that concerned, somebody else was. Yes they did state wherever work had to be performed they would return it to its original state and then some. That would be expected. 


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

We have an energy company rep sniffing around for land to place a solar panel farm. 40 acre minimum. Will pay 800 per acre yearly with a 20 year agreement. 5% increase every 5 years. Nothing final yet.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I think Mt Arvon has a referendum vote next Tuesday on the proposed wind farm.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Luv2hunteup said:


> I think Mt Arvon has a referendum vote next Tuesday on the proposed wind farm.


Would love to be on that One.. Been thinking about Buying a Boat, that would seal the Deal


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## Eric Bee (Sep 10, 2012)

They were supposed to have a vote on wind generators in Isabella county ( Isabella townshio) last fall .I don't know how the vote turned out. To see one or two wind generators is unique, to see miles and miles of them looks grotesque. 127 north of Ithaca is starting to look grotesque. A lot worse than the big billboards


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Eric Bee said:


> They were supposed to have a vote on wind generators in Isabella county ( Isabella townshio) last fall .I don't know how the vote turned out. To see one or two wind generators is unique, to see miles and miles of them looks grotesque. 127 north of Ithaca is starting to look grotesque


That’s already A Go for this Fall.. It was awarded to Fagan Const (Non Union). Not good for Michigan Area Workers.. 140-160 Turbines last I was informed..

Rosebush is the Center Of Farm.. Both Sides of 127


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## Jiw275 (Jan 1, 2015)

Remington441 said:


> That’s already A Go for this Fall.. It was awarded to Fagan Const (Non Union). Not good for Michigan Area Workers.. 140-160 Turbines last I was informed..
> 
> Rosebush is the Center Of Farm.. Both Sides of 127


Who is the customer?


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Jiw275 said:


> Who is the customer?


Apex is The Owner/developer Of the Farm..

We pulled our Bid this past fall after it went out for Re-Bid.. We have too much work around the Country..


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## Jiw275 (Jan 1, 2015)

Am a retired union electrician, any info on the electrical contractors bidding the work would appreciated. 

Feel free to PM me.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Jiw275 said:


> Am a retired union electrician, any info on the electrical contractors bidding the work would appreciated.
> 
> Feel free to PM me.


MJ Electric has it.. They do a lot of work with us.. They are Currently in Unionville with us.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> I see that someone mentioned Birds in this thread.. I hear that all the Time.. I’ve Worked on 34 Windfarms in 2 Countries and 7 States.. I have yet to see a dead bird, well I did Hit a Pheasant on my way to Caro 3 weeks ago, not sure if that counts as a Casualty Of a Wind Turbine???? Wonder if there will be any Boycotting of Chevy since I hit it with my Truck??


Well your personal experience doesnt negate the extensive studies and proof of how windmills affect birds. I also dont think the Obama administration quietly changed the regulations/fines for eagle killing by windmills in his final days of office because windmills aren't killing eagles.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidb...gift-to-wind-parting-shots-at-eagles-and-oil/



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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DirtySteve said:


> Well your personal experience doesnt negate the extensive studies and proof of how windmills affect birds. I also dont think the Obama administration quietly changed the regulations/fines for eagle killing by windmills in his final days of office because windmills aren't killing eagles.
> 
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidb...gift-to-wind-parting-shots-at-eagles-and-oil/
> ...


Lmao.. Nothing more needs to be said.. Where are the Pictures, Evidence and actual Proof of 4200 Dead Eagles? Please tell me you have Something Better than an Anti Wind Article!!! 7 States and 2 Countries and have yet to see a Single Bird Dead.. 

Studies also say Our Govt Took Down the World Trade Center..


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> Lmao.. Nothing more needs to be said.. Where are the Pictures, Evidence and actual Proof of 4200 Dead Eagles? Please tell me you have Something Better than an Anti Wind Article!!! 7 States and 2 Countries and have yet to see a Single Bird Dead..
> 
> Studies also say Our Govt Took Down the World Trade Center..


I am guessing you didnt read or comprehend the article. It doesn't say 4200 eagles were killed. It says Obama's administration changed the USFWS regulation to 4200 dead eagles before they face penalties. Early in his administration he set an allowance of 2500 dead eagles over 30 yrs when several organizations presented issues with windmills killing eagles. At the end of his 8 yrs he changes the regulation to a 4200 allowance because they were killing eagles at a rate that would exceed 2500 too early. I asked you of you felt he did this because it isnt an issue?


The other study mentioned in this thread about ducks avoiding them is real. Not tinfoil hat stuff. 

There is one windfarm in California that is watched closely by Audubon society and peta. It kills 35 golden eagles a year....not to mention many other birds. A group of biologists put transmitters on 15 golden eagles in the area and 4 of them were killed by wind turbines the first year. 







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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DirtySteve said:


> I am guessing you didnt read or comprehend the article. It doesn't say 4200 eagles were killed. It says Obama's administration changed the USFWS regulation to 4200 dead eagles before they face penalties. Early in his administration he set an allowance of 2500 dead eagles over 30 yrs when several organizations presented issues with windmills killing eagles. At the end of his 8 yrs he changes the regulation to a 4200 allowance because they were killing eagles at a rate that would exceed 2500 too early. I asked you of you felt he did this because it isnt an issue?
> 
> 
> The other study mentioned in this thread about ducks avoiding them is real. Not tinfoil hat stuff.
> ...


Planes, Cars, People, Trains and Everything Else man made Kills Birds and Animals.. Coal Plants Pollute And Kill.. Nothing will ever make everyone happy.. Some People Just Bitch to Bitch.. 

I’m sure PETA and and Audubon Society conducted a Truly UNBIASED study.. PETA is beyond Reproach??? You lose all credibility when using those 2 in an Argument.. I wouldn’t be shocked if they Killed the Eagles and placed them near Turbines to further their cause..


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Remington441 said:


> I hate to be the bearer of Bad News. But DTE and consumers have around 16 more Wind Farms Slated for Construction in Michigan the next 5 years..


Good, bring em on. All the mamby pamby nonsense about clean energy destroying the environment is garbage put on their plate by the industrial status quo.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> Planes, Cars, People, Trains and Everything Else man made Kills Birds and Animals.. Coal Plants Pollute And Kill.. Nothing will ever make everyone happy.. Some People Just Bitch to Bitch..
> 
> I’m sure PETA and and Audubon Society conducted a Truly UNBIASED study.. PETA is beyond Reproach??? You lose all credibility when using those 2 in an Argument.. I wouldn’t be shocked if they Killed the Eagles and placed them near Turbines to further their cause..


The studies done at the windfarm in califronia have mostly been conducted by Purdue. Sure everything kills birds and animals but not at the same rate. The main issue I have isnt that they are killing eagles it is that they are given a free pass for killing thousands. If a coal plant has one dead eagle on its property it pays fines and has to do pay tens of thousands in eagle restoration projects. Everyone should play by the same rules. 

The only reason I bring any of this up is you are making ludicrous statements about never seeing one dead bird and brushing off the issue. The USFWS has done many studies on the affects of all different birds and wind farms. It is a big enough issue for the president to address it not once but twice to protect the wind industry.

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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DirtySteve said:


> You are not even comprehending what I am saying. I have never even conveyed a negative opinion on wind energy. I am merely pointing out the ridiculousness of one your comments.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Why? 32 Windfarms in 7 States and 2 Countries In 12 years.. Company has put up 3x that amount.. I have never seen a dead bird.. That’s a Fact.. A FACT.. I prefer to Believe Evidence Over Corrupt Groups And “Studies”... I’ve Seen enough Whackos around the Country Protesting and the lengths they go to in order to try and Make a Point.. 

You are free to believe anything you like, I’ll stick to Facts...


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> Why? 32 Windfarms in 7 States and 2 Countries In 12 years.. Company has put up 3x that amount.. I have never seen a dead bird.. That’s a Fact.. A FACT.. I prefer to Believe Evidence Over Corrupt Groups And “Studies”... I’ve Seen enough Whackos around the Country Protesting and the lengths they go to in order to try and Make a Point..
> 
> You are free to believe anything you like, I’ll stick to Facts...


Maybe you just aren't looking hard enough or your love for wind energy gives you a blind bias?

If you want to stick with the facts wind energy kills plenty of birds. Lots of studies show that oil industry kills far more. Coal plants kill less. All of them pale in comparison to the number of birds killed by powerlines and I would bet good money that cars and cats are far worse than windmills.

The fact that you can come on social media and state 0 birds killed and everyone who believes windmills kill birds is a tinfoil hat wearing nut shows your true bias. It makes one question the validity of all your comments on this post. Your post 148 applies to you my friend. 



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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

We can have nuclear generation.
Coal fired generation. (I miss the B.C. Cobb plant in Muskegon. Better scrubbers may have been the answer but I digress.
Hydro still exists. Contentious in some circles but where established ,it's established.
At greater expense diverted portions of certain seasonal rates of run if cooled enough could generate on a smaller scale and allow more unobstructed streams.

Solar in my ignorant opinion seems to have fallen off. At least the reduction in costs anticipated being passed to the consumer and in durability of systems.

Here in Michigan I see more residential sampling than commitment. Which might be climate and budget dependent.

Birds die lots of ways. Vehicle strikes are many. We see that.
Bouncing off glass windows too.
Fish die from generating facilities from multiple aspects. We know that and have seen Consumers pay for part of that loss.
Sediment behind dams affects water temps. And should a dam be removed what is in that sediment could be worse than the negative effect of a sediment flow downsteam on fish gills.

On we go.
Wind is low emission.
I don't look at what the environmental effects of manufacturing a windmill is ,or measure the distribution/transportation cost on resources or environment.

Tentatively , wind bothers me less than other sources. At least as far as "my back yard".

The single biggest effect on energy demand and cost if I'm anywhere near updated on old concept , is conservation.

Here in Michigan (and other areas) just exactly what position a roof line is placed , and it's exposure affects heating and cooling demands.
Mass can store heat , and keep a home cooler in heat ,or should I say create a longer temp range without rapid dissipation.

Earth berm homes. What happened to them here?
Years ago I toured one and learned a little of it's construction.
Not a dug into side hill , but an eggshell on end of concrete with a foam layer covered with sand and the turf with allowance(windows/sky lights) for light.

I live in a shack. Utility costs are not too bad , but much could be improved. 
Not just for my wallets sake , but by conserving more ,for the environments sake and costs for others.

I'll take dead birds now and then if having to choose a power source in my back yard allows wind generation as an option.
No it's not perfect. But it beats other options for now. 

I've watched more than one bird of prey slalom through trees in a manner that left me scratching my head at their grace.
Watched a blackbird flying in a skilled pilots manner doing all kinds of fancy maneuvers and then into a slow dive across the road , into a moving cars grill.
If they bonk into a slow turning rotor , I don't know what to tell them. Sorry? I use electricity and doing so costs both me and nature?


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

I watched the eagle video. It looks like the main problem was clustered small turbines spinning fast like a lawn mower blade. They are being replaced by taller, larger, slower moving blades and towers. Bird kill reduced by 80%. So bring on the wind turbines.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

The day will come when areas around wind turbines will be closed to hunting.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> The day will come when areas around wind turbines will be closed to hunting.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

That was an intelligent post. 

The day will come, one or two will get hit, and damaged, by a stray shot. The power companies will then start pushing for "safety zones" around them.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Remington441 said:


> That day has come and past.. They get shot every year.. Do you think stopping people from hunting will make the Problem Go away? It will Be Worse and The Companies know that.. They are SMART, unlike many people who make up Excrement on forums.. Power companies have lease agreements on the properties, they can “Just make Safe Zones”..
> 
> Keep throwing **** against the wall, sooner or later you might get something correct, but I won’t wait around that long..



No, stopping hunting won't make the problem go away. I know that. The idea that laws will never make a problem go away has NEVER stopped them from passing more.

I hunted VERY close to a wind turbine last season. Needless to say, there was no way I would ever shoot towards it. It's also needless to say that not everyone is as careful as they should be.

I do know one thing, they are not pleasant to hunt near. The noise is bothersome. It's kinda like having a giant mosquito sitting on your shoulder all day long. It's always there, it never stops while those blade are turning. One can almost "feel" the noise. I believe that the blind I was in was 125 yards from the base of that thing, but I could be wrong about that. 

If it had been snowing much harder I would have had to have left the area. The snow was collecting on the blades, forming ice, and the ice was being thrown off the blades, hitting the blind I was hunting in. Had it been a heavy snow fall, and larger chunks were being thrown, it could cause injury.


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## sherman51 (Oct 28, 2018)

I don't think it will hurt the deer hunting that much. I hunt about 150 yrds from the road. I have health problems that prevent me from going any farther. the deer leave a field on the other side of the road and cross into the area I hunt. I have taken several deer here. the deer don't mind the traffic at all. the 1st deer I took here I heard a car sliding on the road to keep from hitting deer. I kept looking and seen 2 deer coming my way. I started trying to get them to stop close to me but they just kept moving. I started out whistling the started dleating but they was scared and kept moving. then about 100 yrds away they stopped and was looking back to see what was making the noise. one was standing straight at me and I took the shot. he dropped in his tracks and started pushing with his hind legs for about 5 yrds then he died. any time the people aren't working the deer will be in the area in my opinion.
sherman


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Those things don't hurt the deer hunting, unless they end up taking out too much habitat in a given area. 

They do diminish the experience.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> Those things don't hurt the deer hunting, unless they end up taking out too much habitat in a given area.
> 
> They do diminish the experience.


They remove as little habitat as possible.. removal of any Trees Etc, Costs Money.. It’s not Ideal for any company building Turbines to do that..


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

They remove as little as possible, but there is a LOT of damage done. I know they do the "minimum" to accomplish the job, I understand the costs involved. That does not change the fact that the damage, in forested areas, is extensive. 

I have no problem putting them in areas that have already been severely damaged, like in cities, which are already cesspools. Can't hurt anything there. (I know it can't be done, I know they have to go where the wind is "more reliable") It just gets old seeing entire areas wiped out to "save the environment". Taking out thousands of trees does not help the environment one bit.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> They remove as little as possible, but there is a LOT of damage done. I know they do the "minimum" to accomplish the job, I understand the costs involved. That does not change the fact that the damage, in forested areas, is extensive.
> 
> I have no problem putting them in areas that have already been severely damaged, like in cities, which are already cesspools. Can't hurt anything there. (I know it can't be done, I know they have to go where the wind is "more reliable") It just gets old seeing entire areas wiped out to "save the environment". Taking out thousands of trees does not help the environment one bit.


I would agree if it’s Public Areas And Land.. But Private Property, that’s what it is, Private.. It’s their land.. I’ve never been on a Farm that has used public property or Hunting Acreage


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> They Are Voting on the Next Lawsuit.
> 
> A. Turbines Cause Cancer
> B. Turbines are Alien Hubs
> ...


They may not cause cancer but they sure are ugly! More like a cancer on the landscape.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Groundsize said:


> Horrible Dave! I hunt right next door and I am not looking forward to the eye sore. Ugly as all get out.


Paul I’m in quite the conundrum. Like you, I don’t wanna see or hear these spinning dinosaurs either but there coming to our neighborhood. I’m gonna be seeing these things while hunting, it may be up to me to decide how close I want one. There’s money opportunities here and if I gonna have to stare at them anyways. ???? Not sure if Riester is on board with a couple of these things . Any word???


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> They may not cause cancer but they sure are ugly! More like a cancer on the landscape.


Out of My Control and Really not a concern of Mine at All.. Like I’ve said many times, Never Make everyone happy nor do I care if they are Happy.. At the End of the Day your opinion Means Squat, just like mine.. The Wind Industry should take me til I retire at 48, then is wont matter to me anymore..[/QUOTE]


----------



## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> Out of My Control and Really not a concern of Mine at All.. Like I’ve said many times, Never Make everyone happy nor do I care if they are Happy.. At the End of the Day your opinion Means Squat, just like mine.. The Wind Industry should take me til I retire at 48, then is wont matter to me anymore..


[/QUOTE]
All good info , Thnx for all the posting on the subject


----------



## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

mbrewer said:


> Do you find your pessimism depressing?


I know. 
I'm getting depressed reading his posts.


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

All good info , Thnx for all the posting on the subject[/QUOTE]
No problem.. feel free to ask anything.. If I don’t know something, I’m good at Making it up!!!


----------



## sherman51 (Oct 28, 2018)

i've heard rumors of them being put in lake erie's western basin. has anyone heard anything about this?


----------



## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

sniper said:


> Paul I’m in quite the conundrum. Like you, I don’t wanna see or hear these spinning dinosaurs either but there coming to our neighborhood. I’m gonna be seeing these things while hunting, it may be up to me to decide how close I want one. There’s money opportunities here and if I gonna have to stare at them anyways. ???? Not sure if Riester is on board with a couple of these things . Any word???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


When fall comes around, give yourself a break from seeing "these things" while hunting. Take some your annual payment and go to Wyoming, Montana, Colorado, BC, Newfoundland, Ontario... Just be sure your chosen area is well away from a wind farm!


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DirtySteve said:


> The studies done at the windfarm in califronia have mostly been conducted by Purdue. Sure everything kills birds and animals but not at the same rate. The main issue I have isnt that they are killing eagles it is that they are given a free pass for killing thousands. If a coal plant has one dead eagle on its property it pays fines and has to do pay tens of thousands in eagle restoration projects. Everyone should play by the same rules.
> 
> The only reason I bring any of this up is you are making ludicrous statements about never seeing one dead bird and brushing off the issue. The USFWS has done many studies on the affects of all different birds and wind farms. It is a big enough issue for the president to address it not once but twice to protect the wind industry.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Sovacool, Benjamin K., 2009. "Contextualizing avian mortality: A preliminary appraisal of bird and bat fatalities from wind, fossil-fuel, and nuclear electricity," Energy Policy, Elsevier, vol. 37(6), pages 2241-2248, June. 

" The study estimates that wind farms and nuclear power stations are responsible each for between 0.3 and 0.4 fatalities per gigawatt-hour (GWh) of electricity while fossil-fueled power stations are responsible for about 5.2 fatalities per GWh. While this paper should be respected as a preliminary assessment, the estimate means that wind farms killed approximately seven thousand birds in the United States in 2006 but nuclear plants killed about 327,000 and fossil-fueled power plants 14.5 million."

A. M Calvert C. A Bishop R. D Elliot E. A Krebs T. M Kydd C. S Machtansand G. J Robertson (2013). A synthesis of human-related avian mortality in Canada. Avian Conservation and Ecology 8(2):11.

Yearly Human related Avian mortality in Canada

1	Cats (feral)	79,600,000	
2	Cats (domestic)	54,880,000	
3	Power line collisions	16,810,000	
4	Buildings (houses)	16,390,000	
5	Road vehicle collisions	9,814,000	
6	Harvest (game birds)	2,817,000	
7	Buildings (low, mid & high rise)	1,317,130	
8	Commercial forestry	887,835	
9	Power electrocutions	184,300	
10	Agriculture (haying & mowing)	135,400	
11	Communication tower collisions	101,500	
12	Wind energy collisions	13,060	
13	All other	3,479,328	

Total	186,429,553	

"Combined, cat predation and collisions with windows, vehicles, and transmission lines caused > 95% of all mortality"


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DecoySlayer said:


> That was an intelligent post.
> 
> The day will come, one or two will get hit, and damaged, by a stray shot. The power companies will then start pushing for "safety zones" around them.


They already almost certainly qualify as "occupied" and are covered already by current safety zones.


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DecoySlayer said:


> How is actually seeing what is going on, and commenting on it, considered "pessimism"?


Pessimisim: a tendency to see the worst aspect of things or believe that the worst will happen; a lack of hope or confidence in the future.


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

pescadero said:


> They already almost certainly qualify as "occupied" and are covered already by current safety zones.


500 Ft.. qualifies as a Residence.. So whatever your TWP requires.. is what I was Told By Consumers


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

pescadero said:


> Sovacool, Benjamin K., 2009. "Contextualizing avian mortality: A preliminary appraisal of bird and bat fatalities from wind, fossil-fuel, and nuclear electricity," Energy Policy, Elsevier, vol. 37(6), pages 2241-2248, June.
> 
> " The study estimates that wind farms and nuclear power stations are responsible each for between 0.3 and 0.4 fatalities per gigawatt-hour (GWh) of electricity while fossil-fueled power stations are responsible for about 5.2 fatalities per GWh. While this paper should be respected as a preliminary assessment, the estimate means that wind farms killed approximately seven thousand birds in the United States in 2006 but nuclear plants killed about 327,000 and fossil-fueled power plants 14.5 million."
> 
> ...


If that study were true there would be no need for a free pass on killing 4200 eagles by wind farms in the US without penalty. If all things are equal between nuclear and wind then wind energy should be able to withstand the same fines and penalties a nuclear plant would pay......but that obviously isnt the case. 

What the study isnt showing you is how much conventional energy production has played a role in the comeback of the bald eagle. All of the warm water discharge areas give winter habitat for eagles and all sorts of fish that give them easy meals. DTE hosts bald eagle viewing tours in the winter and people travel from all over the country to see them.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> 500 Ft.. qualifies as a Residence.. So whatever your TWP requires.. is what I was Told By Consumers


Nope - the DNR (according to the law division) uses the Black's Law dictionary of occupy.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

pescadero said:


> Nope - the DNR (according to the law division) uses the Black's Law dictionary of occupy.


Well.. That’s what Consumers energy just told me 4 minutes ago..

Right or Wrong.. Who knows


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DirtySteve said:


> If that study were true there would be no need for a free pass on killing 4200 eagles by wind farms in the US without penalty. If all things are equal between nuclear and wind then wind energy should be able to withstand the same fines and penalties a nuclear plant would pay......but that obviously isnt the case.


If an Eagle flies into a nuclear power plant and dies - there are no fines and penalties. 

These sorts of rules ONLY exist for wind power.

...and the "free pass" to 4200 Eagles over 40 years was a scientific decision, based on finding out that the population was significantly higher than in 2009:

"Under the management approach established with the 2009 eagle permit regulations and final EA (FEA), permitted take of bald eagles has been capped at 5 percent of estimated annual
productivity "

"Since 2009, Service and U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) scientists have undertaken considerable research and monitoring to improve the Service’s ability to track compliance with eagle management objectives and reduce uncertainty. Of particular significance, the Service has updated population estimates for both species of eagle and quantified uncertainty in those
estimates. For the bald eagle, the Service now estimates substantially higher populations than were estimated in 2009, and allowable take limits will likely increase considerably across most
of the country as a result"


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> Well.. That’s what Consumers energy just told me 4 minutes ago..
> 
> Right or Wrong.. Who knows


The definition of a "residence" by Consumers doesn't matter one bit with respect to safety zones.

The definition of "occupied" by the DNR is what matters with respect to safety zones.

"No person may hunt with a firearm within 450 feet of an occupied building, dwelling, house, residence or cabin, or any barn or other building used in connection with a farm operation, without obtaining the written permission of the owner, renter or occupant of the property."


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

pescadero said:


> The definition of a "residence" by Consumers doesn't matter one bit with respect to safety zones.
> 
> The definition of "occupied" by the DNR is what matters with respect to safety zones.
> 
> "No person may hunt with a firearm within 450 feet of an occupied building, dwelling, house, residence or cabin, or any barn or other building used in connection with a farm operation, without obtaining the written permission of the owner, renter or occupant of the property."


Lol.. sorry off by 50 Ft.. lol


----------



## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

pescadero said:


> If an Eagle flies into a nuclear power plant and dies - there are no fines and penalties.
> 
> These sorts of rules ONLY exist for wind power.
> 
> ...


You are so wrong about this. Energy and oil companies pay millions in fines all the time for killing Raptors as well as other birds. Pacificorp paid 10.5 million in fines for electrocuting eagles in Wyoming in 2009 not to mention habitat restoration it had to pay for. BP paid 100 million for waterfowl in 2010 for their oil spill in the gulf. You can find dozens of examples if you look a little. Wind energy is the only sector that gets a free pass. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DirtySteve said:


> You are so wrong about this. Energy and oil companies pay millions in fines all the time for killing Raptors as well as other birds. Pacificorp paid 10.5 million in fines for electrocuting eagles in Wyoming in 2009 not to mention habitat restoration it had to pay for.


"_*Wind farm operator PacifiCorp Energy*_ will pay $2.5 million in fines after pleading guilty to charges in connection with the deaths of protected birds in Wyoming."






DirtySteve said:


> BP paid 100 million for waterfowl in 2010 for their oil spill in the gulf.


You're conflating being punished after the fact for violating environmental law with requiring "incidental take"permits ahead of project approval.




DirtySteve said:


> You can find dozens of examples if you look a little. Wind energy is the only sector that gets a free pass.


No - wind energy is the only sector required to get pre-approved "incidental take", everyone else gets a free pass.


----------



## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

pescadero said:


> "_*Wind farm operator PacifiCorp Energy*_ will pay $2.5 million in fines after pleading guilty to charges in connection with the deaths of protected birds in Wyoming."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok so show me where any company in this country is exempt from the migratory bird treaty act regulations? Many Shale oil companies and power companies have been fined under the authority of this act. Doesnt matter if it is habitat destruction, electrocution or other means this act has been used. It was pointed out in dozens of articles when the usfws first started talking about exempting wind power in 2011 that 28 other companies had been fined that year. Many of which were shale oil companies in the dakotas. 



Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
Edit:

This is what I was referring to with pacificorp and the 10 million fine. They were fined for electrocuting 200+ eagles and not taking necessary protocols for bird protections on their power lines. Had nothing to do with wind energy. Pacificorp offers every type of energy source there is. They provide coal,wind, geothermal, solar etc....

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jul2009/2009-07-14-092.html


----------



## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

DirtySteve said:


> Ok so show me where any company in this country is exempt from the migratory bird treaty act regulations?


No companies are - including wind farms.

Wind farms are not only not exempt - but must apply for "incidental take" permits. They have to do MORE than other energy sources under federal law.


----------



## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

DecoySlayer said:


> I have no one to hunt with, except for guys who are my age, or older. None of us can safely drag deer very far anymore, if at all.
> 
> I have no family around to hunt with. They have either all died, or were forced to move to find work.
> 
> How should I do it?


I hunt primarily by myself. Get a good deer cart and a couple good flashlights. Have spent a lot of hours late at night by myself pulling out a good one. Sometimes better to wait until next morning but it can be done.


----------



## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

pescadero said:


> No companies are - including wind farms.
> 
> Wind farms are not only not exempt - but must apply for "incidental take" permits. They have to do MORE than other energy sources under federal law.


You are wrong about the incidental permits. The ONLY reason they would have to get more permits is because they kill an excessive amount of Raptors. No other reason. They are not required but really stupid if they dont. 

Any company can apply for a incidental permit which makes them exempt from paying penalties under the migratory bird act and avoid millions in fines. Not all permits are approved and most are typically hard to get....unless you are a wind farm. The difference between wind farms and other companies is they have their own permit and application process. The wind farm permit is now good for 30 years and capped 4200 eagles nationwide starting in 2016. Earlier in Obama's presidency they were for 5 years when their special permits were initially implemented. Any other comapnies permit is based on the conditions of the project. Typically they are denied and told move the project elsewhere. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

sniper said:


> Paul I’m in quite the conundrum. Like you, I don’t wanna see or hear these spinning dinosaurs either but there coming to our neighborhood. I’m gonna be seeing these things while hunting, it may be up to me to decide how close I want one. There’s money opportunities here and if I gonna have to stare at them anyways. ???? Not sure if Riester is on board with a couple of these things . Any word???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I havnt asked him yet. I will this year when I see him. HOw many is Dan and MAl going to put in????


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Groundsize said:


> I havnt asked him yet. I will this year when I see him. HOw many is Dan and MAl going to put in????


Not sure about those guys. But even if their not getting one, there gonna be in sight of one. No way around it. That’s my issue, see one and get paid for it, or see one and don’t get paid. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## mal (Feb 18, 2002)

sniper said:


> Not sure about those guys. But even if their not getting one, there gonna be in sight of one. No way around it. That’s my issue, see one and get paid for it, or see one and don’t get paid.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I told Invenergy they could carpet my property with windmills for a minimum of $50k per year per windmill. Never heard back.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

sherman51 said:


> i've heard rumors of them being put in lake erie's western basin. has anyone heard anything about this?



There has been talk, I have not heard much lately


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

pescadero said:


> Pessimisim: a tendency to see the worst aspect of things or believe that the worst will happen; a lack of hope or confidence in the future.


People who spend large amounts of time working on the future, trying to improve it, are not being pessimistic. 

I just don't agree with you, and many others, so you just don't like it.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

I would be interesting to see how many raptors, if any, are being killed on Bob-Lo Island. The monsters on that island are smack in the middle of one of the more important raptor migration routes in North America. People come here, from all over the world in the fall, to see the raptors as they migrate through here.


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## mal (Feb 18, 2002)

sniper said:


> Not sure about those guys. But even if their not getting one, there gonna be in sight of one. No way around it. That’s my issue, see one and get paid for it, or see one and don’t get paid.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I guess if it the whole thing starts pinching a nerve I'll just lease Hillsdale out and spend more time hunting Ohio and Kentucky. Might even be a good reason to start hunting our place in the U.P. again.


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

mal said:


> I guess if it the whole thing starts pinching a nerve I'll just lease Hillsdale out and spend more time hunting Ohio and Kentucky. Might even be a good reason to start hunting our place in the U.P. again.


Yep.. So Many Choices. Iowa, Ohio, Illinois, Kentucky, Wisconsin..


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

If I were sniper, I wouldn't even worry about the windmills. 
Especially during the rut. 

Put up some cameras and monitor the activity. 

I look at about the same as farming practices. 

It will have some of an impact for sure but I bet the hunting won't be bad.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

G20man said:


> If I were sniper, I wouldn't even worry about the windmills.
> Especially during the rut.
> 
> Put up some cameras and monitor the activity.
> ...


Very little impact at all.. We have deer out when we are working and they Flood the fields in the evening after work hours.. Doesn’t matter where I’ve been. Ohio, Illinois, Iowa, Pa, Canada... It’s all the same.. People get an Idea in their head, and no matter how insane that idea is, they can’t shake it.. 

I just laugh..


----------



## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Remington441 said:


> Very little impact at all.. We have deer out when we are working and they Flood the fields in the evening after work hours.. Doesn’t matter where I’ve been. Ohio, Illinois, Iowa, Pa, Canada... It’s all the same.. People get an Idea in their head, and no matter how insane that idea is, they can’t shake it..
> 
> I just laugh..


Right. 
Deer are masters at adjusting. 
Hunters not so much.


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

G20man said:


> Right.
> Deer are masters at adjusting.
> Hunters not so much.


Yes.. Sit on the Same Stump and Just complain..


----------



## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

I'd rather share a property with windmills rather than other hunters.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Deer adjust, they are really good at it. The loss of habitat is the problem. It is not a problem, yet, but don't try to say that the day when it becomes a problem may not arrive, go look for small game around here. Ask the bird hunter where the quail and pheasants are. 

It is possible, and we have seen it, to destroy enough to harm even deer.

Anything that harms habitat must be restricted. Habitat must be restored, we humans need it too.


----------



## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

DecoySlayer said:


> Deer adjust, they are really good at it. The loss of habitat is the problem. It is not a problem, yet, but don't try to say that the day when it becomes a problem may not arrive, go look for small game around here. Ask the bird hunter where the quail and pheasants are.
> 
> It is possible, and we have seen it, to destroy enough to harm even deer.
> 
> Anything that harms habitat must be restricted. Habitat must be restored, we humans need it too.


The problem with lack of pheasants is the lack of supported Switchgrass plantings . People always say crp is best for pheasants I disagree. I had a 6 acre pure Switchgrass field it had more pheasants in it compared to 35 acres of crp.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

mal said:


> I guess if it the whole thing starts pinching a nerve I'll just lease Hillsdale out and spend more time hunting Ohio and Kentucky. Might even be a good reason to start hunting our place in the U.P. again.


Take me with you to Kentucky.....


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

mal said:


> Replies like this are such low hanging fruit...I had so many replies floating through my head (many of them pretty funny) that I just have to take the high road and agree with you. But now that I've read a couple studies done by real estate people and PhD's, I know more on the topic.


Because people never lie.. People never have Agendas.. Everything you read is always 100% fact..


----------



## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Shoeman said:


> All I know is that they're ugly as sin and turn a nice landscape into an industrial site on a very large scale.


Can’t say I disagree. I will say they were supposed to start windmill construction on my hunting lease right across the road starting Oct 1. Now it’s pushed back until next spring! Woot woot! I get one more hunting season out of it with peace and quiet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sniper said:


> Invenergy in Hillsdale area project is 12 k a year plus minus pending on the size of the windmill on your property . Underground wiring, substations, and road access is additional income to other land leasee’s. A lot of the people in my area consider this free money.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Farms now are going to 30 year lease and Longer with Technology/ Quality improving.. 

Currently Starting project in Illinois where they Have extended to 40 year lease..


----------



## mal (Feb 18, 2002)

sureshot006 said:


> It sounds like if it's really 12k/yr income, the lost value would be easily overcome in a few years (depending on how much land it is).


Doesn't recoup the lost value on the 98% of properties that do not have one, which is what I attempted to focus on in my original post.

Also from what I have read it has less of an impact on properties that are strictly ag because their value is predicated more on a financial model (like Discounted Cash Flows) and you can still farm around windmills, but has an adverse impact on residential and recreational property values.


----------



## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

mal said:


> Doesn't recoup the lost value on the 98% of properties that do not have one, which is what I attempted to focus on in my original post.
> 
> Also from what I have read it has less of an impact on properties that are strictly ag because their value is predicated more on a financial model (like Discounted Cash Flows) and you can still farm around windmills, but has an adverse impact on residential and recreational property values.


No land will go to 0 value because of a windmill. Now, if you're not getting paid for it because it's on a neighbor's land, then sure, you'll take a big hit which is what I guess you were saying in the post that was too long to read lol


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

mal said:


> Doesn't recoup the lost value on the 98% of properties that do not have one, which is what I attempted to focus on in my original post.
> 
> Also from what I have read it has less of an impact on properties that are strictly ag because their value is predicated more on a financial model (like Discounted Cash Flows) and you can still farm around windmills, but has an adverse impact on residential and recreational property values.


I'm assuming your land is over near FL's. If that's the case, considering the beauty and aesthetics of that area, it would be difficult to imagine how windmills on neighboring properties would not harm the value of nearby recreational or residential properties.


----------



## Botiz (Oct 21, 2010)

If they are coming to your neighborhood and you don’t sign up for one, you’re dumb. 

If they are not coming to your neighborhood and you’re doing anything to attract them, you’re dumb. 

That’s what it boils down to.


----------



## mal (Feb 18, 2002)

Remington441 said:


> Because people never lie.. People never have Agendas.. Everything you read is always 100% fact..


My only agenda is that I own a pretty valuable property smack dab in the middle of an area about to be developed into an unsightly mess. I simply read studies done by credible people that show mathematical proof of declining real estate values in areas with wind farm projects. If the people doing the studies had an anti-wind farm agenda, I didn't pick it up in their work. I would have been much happier with studies showing no effect or property value enhancement...but that was not the case. 

Do you work on this things or build them? You seem to be pretty passionate about their benefit.


----------



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> No land will go to 0 value because of a windmill. Now, if you're not getting paid for it because it's on a neighbor's land, then sure, you'll take a big hit which is what I guess you were saying in the post that was too long to read lol


Hillsdale County has townships that have banned windmills. I'd perceive recreational properties in those townships to become more attractive to the average hunter as compared to properties in townships that are well populated by windmills.


----------



## mal (Feb 18, 2002)

November Sunrise said:


> I'm assuming your land is over near FL's. If that's the case, considering the beauty and aesthetics of that area, it would be difficult to imagine how windmills on neighboring properties would not harm the value of nearby recreational or residential properties.


Yes I'm in that area, and I suspect there will be much harm to property values, especially those with turbines right on their doorstep.


----------



## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> Hillsdale County has townships that have banned windmills. I'd perceive recreational properties in those townships to become more attractive to the average hunter as compared to properties in townships that are well populated by windmills.


Sure. Better to not have them than to have them. But if they are in your neighborhood it's better to get paid for it than have your value take a hit.

I dont see any land being worthless either way. Just cheaper.


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

mal said:


> My only agenda is that I own a pretty valuable property smack dab in the middle of an area about to be developed into an unsightly mess. I simply read studies done by credible people that show mathematical proof of declining real estate values in areas with wind farm projects. If the people doing the studies had an anti-wind farm agenda, I didn't pick it up in their work. I would have been much happier with studies showing no effect or property value enhancement...but that was not the case.
> 
> Do you work on this things or build them? You seem to be pretty passionate about their benefit.


We build the farms.. Don’t care either way about them.. There is SO MUCH MIS INFORMATION about them.. Some people hate them.. Some People Love then.. Some people don’t care.. it will always be that way.. I’ve watched 150-170” bucks walkout and feed while we are working.. Ohio, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri.. Deer don’t give a damn either..


----------



## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> We build the farms.. Don’t care either way about them.. There is SO MUCH MIS INFORMATION about them.. Some people hate them.. Some People Love then.. Some people don’t care.. it will always be that way.. I’ve watched 150-170” bucks walkout and feed while we are working.. Ohio, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri.. Deer don’t give a damn either..


I'm sure deer dont care but they are UGLY


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> I'm sure deer dont care but they are UGLY


Like I said.. never make everyone happy.. your opinion is as worthless as the next person.. Life is too short to worry about it..


----------



## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> Like I said.. never make everyone happy.. your opinion is as worthless as the next person.. Life is too short to worry about it..


Ugly. Just as worthless as your opinion.


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> Ugly. Just as worthless as your opinion.


I agree.. But they make Me ALOT of money each year.. They are beautiful to me and the Family.. I have farms to hunt in Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin and Ohio.. 

Just beautiful


----------



## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

Wait a minute i thought everyone was for all this renewable energy and getting rid of those evil oil & gas companies ?


----------



## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> I agree.. But they make Me ALOT of money each year.. They are beautiful to me and the Family.. I have farms to hunt in Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin and Ohio..
> 
> Just beautiful


Do you share that wealth with the families you take it from?


----------



## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> Do you share that wealth with the families you take it from?


What have I taken? Our company donates Money, Food and countless other Items.. Our Managers purchased Body Cameras for the Local Police Force in Ohio On Our Project.. This goes on all across the country.. We pour Pole Barn floors, donate the concrete to farmers for driveways, sidewalks.. 

You Don’t have a Clue to what goes on.. Like I said, 99 % Of people like you are the ones who I laugh at, so misinformed.. I hope life gets better for you..


----------



## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> What have I taken? Our company donates Money, Food and countless other Items.. Our Managers purchased Body Cameras for the Local Police Force in Ohio On Our Project.. This goes on all across the country.. We pour Pole Barn floors, donate the concrete to farmers for driveways, sidewalks..
> 
> You Don’t have a Clue to what goes on.. Like I said, 99 % Of people like you are the ones who I laugh at, so misinformed.. I hope life gets better for you..


How about the people who's property values decline because of your installations?


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> How about the people who's property values decline because of your installations?


Talk to the power companies, Townships and Landowners who agree to put them in.. I can’t help those decisions.. We just build them..

They should ask their neighbors who are Making money off of them..


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Had a buddy of mine service those Bill Boards along the Freeway. He thought those were pretty cool as well.

Until he fell and broke his back


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> Talk to the power companies, Townships and Landowners who agree to put them in.. I can’t help those decisions.. We just build them..
> 
> They should ask their neighbors who are Making money off of them..


Go door to door with the negatively impacted and talk to them with the same attitude you display here. I bet you get your nose broken.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Shoeman said:


> Had a buddy of mine service those Bill Boards along the Freeway. He thought those were pretty cool as well.
> 
> Until he fell and broke his back


I’m guessing he was not following safety protocol.. Not the Billboards fault.. Natural Selection.. Weak and Stupid die in the Wild.. No different for humans sometimes..


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> Go door to door with the negatively impacted and talk to them with the same attitude you display here. I bet you get your nose broken.


I would love that.. I would own their home and they would be in Jail or Worse.. 

No worries..

We interact with Landowners everyday.. Always a few that will never be Happy no matter what.. Just ignore them and Move on.. Life isn’t perfect.. 

Like I said.. Never make everyone happy..


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> I would love that.. I would own their home and they would be in Jail or worse


Right. Because people like you wouldnt own it and say "yeah, I probably deserved that".


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Remington441 said:


> I’m guessing he was not following safety protocol.. Not the Billboards fault.. Natural Selection.. Weak and Stupid die in the Wild.. No different for humans sometimes..



Wow!

Actually it was a defective approach.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> Right. Because people like you wouldnt own it and say "yeah, I probably deserved that".


We are always respectful and polite to any Landowner.. We are guests on their land.. Most projects are finished in the same year they are started and restored to original state minus the access road and Turbine footprint.. Which is minimal at best..


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

mal said:


> Since it appears the construction of these monstrosities is coming to a head, anyone with property in the area should research the detrimental impact of property values in area with already established wind farm projects. The research I have read shows decreases in surrounding property values in the range of -10% to -100% (yes this means the property is unsellable), depending on the proximity to turbines and infrastructure, with common decreases in the 30-40% range.
> 
> So imagine buying your dream property for $X,000 per acre, and then 10 years later only being able to get 60-70% of that value when you go to sell. Then imagine having to sue your neighbor for the recovery of your economic loss due to their actions...no bueno.
> 
> ...


Nick is having a minimum of 4 wind towers on the farm. Did you know that? I don't like the idea at all. Definitely an eye sore! To do this just for the money really makes you wonder. I spoke to Sniper dave on the phone for a little the other week. What did you decide to do for your ground? Im sure your against these and are not going to have them put up either correct?


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Groundsize said:


> Nick is having a minimum of 4 wind towers on the farm. Did you know that? I don't like the idea at all. Definitely an eye sore! To do this just for the money really makes you wonder. I spoke to Sniper dave on the phone for a little the other week. What did you decide to do for your ground? Im sure your against these and are not going to have them put up either correct?


50k a Year for 30 years... I’m sure that has a lot to do with it..


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> Right. Because people like you wouldnt own it and say "yeah, I probably deserved that".


Another whacko response.. I see you have Issues in Life.. Hopefully you get some Help..


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

November Sunrise said:


> Hillsdale County has townships that have banned windmills. I'd perceive recreational properties in those townships to become more attractive to the average hunter as compared to properties in townships that are well populated by windmills.


Mike, you and Mal have not met at Dans deer party in the past?


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> Do you share that wealth with the families you take it from?


Sounds like he uses his job for personal gain!


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Groundsize said:


> Sounds like he uses his job for personal gain!


That’s what a job is.. Property owners Make Money.. Power Companies Make Money. townships. local businesses.. 

That’s the name of the game.. 

You are not up to speed I guess

Hell.. The Owner of the House we are renting is getting 2700 a month.. he’s happy also


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> That’s what a job is.. Property owners Make Money.. Power Companies Make Money. townships. local businesses..
> 
> That’s the name of the game..
> 
> You are not up to speed I guess


I am just like to stay natural. Question though for years down the road. What if one wants to break contract and have the windmill removed. What takes place then or for some reason being the land sells or is passed down in the family


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Groundsize said:


> Mike, you and Mal have not met at Dans deer party in the past?


Not recalling if Mal and I have met or not. Every time I've been to Dan's it's been a good chance to connect a lot of faces with screen names but then as the months go by it's not easy to recall everyone.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Groundsize said:


> I am just like to stay natural. Question though for years down the road. What if one wants to break contract and have the windmill removed. What takes place then or for some reason being the land sells or is passed down in the family


Honestly can’t answer that.. can find out easily.. I’m guessing that it would be next to impossible without something in Lease to cover that.. But I don’t think that any developer would agree to have that.. but that’s a pure guess in my part..


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> 50k a Year for 30 years... I’m sure that has a lot to do with it..


Is it common for the contract payment to be inflation adjusted from year to year, based on an external standard such as a cost of living index?


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## vsmorgantown (Jan 16, 2012)

Windmills are ugly and turn a beautiful country vista into an unsightly blight and from what I’ve read, actually, pretty inefficient versus costs and actual energy produced. My question is once the reality of these things come to a head and these companies start folding and filing for bankruptcy, who will continue to make those lease payments? And who will pay to remove them?


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

November Sunrise said:


> Is it common for the contract payment to be inflation adjusted from year to year, based on an external standard such as a cost of living index?


I don’t see that side of the business.. A lot of talk, but.. I know there are a few types of Contracts that Landowners Sign based on Power Sold/ or Straight Monthly Lease / And have heard that there is a Hybrid that has both....


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Jiw275 said:


> Good one! Even after 42 years in the electrical trade and dealing with so many interesting people that I now qualified to also be a proctologist I can add one more interesting person.
> 
> I asked a valid question seeking to understand. Just one more for you: which of the white ones that a not spinning are the peakers?


. It was a Joke.. as you know all are white..
I said.. Some farms are.. Turbines are shut down for MANY reasons.... Many reasons.. 
Calm winds are 1 reason.. Maintenance on Turbines.. Many..


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Remington441 said:


> Sometimes they don’t change for days..
> 
> See how that works


I was merely pointing out that windmills do draw off the grid at times. I am sure it is short periods of time. The person I was responding to was talking about an engineer telling him they use electricity to spin when the wind dies. I dont think they spin continually when not in use. Just when they need to start. That is most likely what tye engineer was talking about. 

They use electricity to monitor wind speeds and turn into the wind as well as many other scenarios.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)




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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

I have even seen it, rarely, when up "The Mountain" where the winds were blowing on the surface, but not up on the top of the fire tower.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Don’t worry, Windmill Man is on his way out!

94 posts and only 2 asking for spots, another looking for a bug rod. The rest..... windmills

I guess I would defend my employment as well! Just not in another State being highly abrasive. (Just stating the facts Ma’am)


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Shoeman said:


> Don’t worry, Windmill Man is on his way out!
> 
> 94 posts and only 2 asking for spots, another looking for a bug rod. The rest..... windmills
> 
> I guess I would defend my employment as well! Just not in another State being highly abrasive. (Just stating the facts Ma’am)


Hahaha I was going to suggest the same but not really my place.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Shoeman said:


> Don’t worry, Windmill Man is on his way out!
> 
> 94 posts and only 2 asking for spots, another looking for a bug rod. The rest..... windmills
> 
> I guess I would defend my employment as well! Just not in another State being highly abrasive. (Just stating the facts Ma’am)


I don’t need to defend my employment.. They could end Wind Energy tomorrow.. I wouldn’t lose 1 minute of Sleep over.. I would move on to something even Better.. which I am Currently thinking of doing.. 

I just defend Facts against Stupidity


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## Botiz (Oct 21, 2010)

Whatever it is, if you thinks it’s better than windmills than I’d sure hate to have to hear you talk about it.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)




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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Botiz said:


> Whatever it is, if you thinks it’s better than windmills than I’d sure hate to have to hear you talk about it.


That’s what so great About this Country..

Choices.. you aren’t required to read any post from Me

Ignore button.. Pretty Simple.. I can Give you directions on how to perform this task


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## Botiz (Oct 21, 2010)

In return for that kindness, I’ll walk you through how capitalization works.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Botiz said:


> In return for that kindness, I’ll walk you through how capitalization works.


No need .... not a requirement for anything of substance


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

Botiz said:


> Depending on how that goes, we might move on to how to win friends and influence people.


Same answer.. No need.. not a requirement or interest of mine on a Message forum..


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

What's great about this country is freedom. The mods of the forum have the freedom to eliminate a users ability to post under a specific username or IP address, as they see fit.

Can always use a proxy and a new username. Maybe ImBetterThanU would work.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> What's great about this country is freedom. The mods of the forum have the freedom to eliminate a users ability to post under a specific username or IP address, as they see fit.
> 
> Can always use a proxy and a new username. Maybe ImBetterThanU would work.


Another instance where I wouldn’t lose a minute of Sleep.. IP address ban.. What is it, the 80’s... lmao


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)




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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> Another instance where I wouldn’t lose a minute of Sleep.. IP address ban.. What is it, the 80’s... lmao


What's funny to me is a person with a personality such as yours may take it pretty hard. Even though it's a silly forum, its gotta get to your giant ego.


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## Remington441 (May 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> What's funny to me is a person with a personality such as yours may take it pretty hard. Even though it's a silly forum, its gotta get to your giant ego.


It’s cute that you believe that.. but if I wanted to post after a Ban, I would..


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

LMAO!

How come they are all the same. No facts, no real argument, and eventually just start calling people names. 

Like calling someone dumb wins the argument. I’ll probably get called racist for this post.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Remington441 said:


> It’s cute that you believe that.. but if I wanted to post after a Ban, I would..


I'm sure you would. Problem is, you'd be incredibly obvious.

Question though... why are you here with us peasants?


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