# Changing Steelhead Limits?



## STEELnICE (Dec 4, 2007)

Platte might not be what it once was but I still get plenty and put most of them back. Its a one fish limit now and some days like today I happily rope one and wade back to my house.


----------



## Phoolish (Aug 17, 2011)

Rainbowjack said:


> Wow really? If you cant tell the difference between a hen and a buck you.......well nevermind


i can and i dont keep hens but there are ppl out there who dont care to learn or cant tell especially ppl who are new to steelhead.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

If it is not broke do not try to fix it. Right now there are plenty of steelhead out there to be caught. The DNR plants plenty on the gold coast and a few on the sunrise side. They don't plant many in the UP but there is good reproduction. Cutting the limit to 1 fish will just kill tourism. I quit ice fishing for pike this year because of the size and creel limit and opted for steelhead ice fishing. I would spend about $40 pike fishing on travel, bait, and snacks per trip which is cheap by all means. The steelhead fishing cost me about $5 per trip and I caught more fish. That is really really cheap. I think that the pike rules should be changed. Then I would go after them more.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Many of the planted fish do not have clips of any kind so it can be difficult to tell what you have. Until a steelhead is going into the spawning phase of its life it can be difficult to tell the difference between the males and females. The smaller steelhead will present a problem as well. I catch a number of very nice sized steelhead throughout the winter ice fishing that you cannot determine the sex. A one hen limit is not going to be like duck hunting when it comes to steelhead because it would be impossible to enforce.


----------



## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> Many of the planted fish do not have clips of any kind so it can be difficult to tell what you have. Until a steelhead is going into the spawning phase of its life it can be difficult to tell the difference between the males and females. The smaller steelhead will present a problem as well. I catch a number of very nice sized steelhead throughout the winter ice fishing that you cannot determine the sex. A one hen limit is not going to be like duck hunting when it comes to steelhead because it would be impossible to enforce.


Snout shape and length should be an indicator, whether it's in the river or lake. At least in my experience, if the limit was changed to 1 hen I guess just use caution on the skippers!


----------



## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

STEELnICE said:


> Platte might not be what it once was but I still get plenty and put most of them back. Its a one fish limit now and some days like today I happily rope one and wade back to my house.


NIce pic, I agree there are still fish in there, if you know where to look. I'm not one of these guys who wants to have "bobber down" on every drift, I'm just hoping that it comes to back to being a shadow of it's old self. This is the river I was pretty much weaned on for steelhead fishing so it carries a special place in me.


----------



## Phoolish (Aug 17, 2011)

Robert Holmes said:


> Many of the planted fish do not have clips of any kind so it can be difficult to tell what you have. Until a steelhead is going into the spawning phase of its life it can be difficult to tell the difference between the males and females. The smaller steelhead will present a problem as well. I catch a number of very nice sized steelhead throughout the winter ice fishing that you cannot determine the sex. A one hen limit is not going to be like duck hunting when it comes to steelhead because it would be impossible to enforce.


thats why i said


Phoolish said:


> Too bad steelhead dont have a really clear identifier to tell what are hens. because i would say max 1 hen but keep it the rest the same. By clear identifier i mean a different color or fin so ppl cant say i thought it was a hen. That way reproduction would stay up and you could still get spawn if you use it.


I personally go by snout and mouth size


----------



## -Axiom- (Jul 24, 2010)

Why are you worried about killing hens?

Steelhead are doing well and are plentiful if this wasn't the case the DNR would do something about it, it's what they do.
If killing hens or general harvest was an issue there would at least be a spawning closure.

This limit change is a special request by a special interest group.
This is about guides wanting even more fish in the river so that their job is easier.

To a lessor extent it is also about limiting the amount of people on the river, not by outright stopping them through force of law but but making is a distasteful endeavor they no longer want to partake in.


----------



## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

Phoolish said:


> thats why i said
> I personally go by snout and mouth size


Absolutely correct, if you've caught many steelies at all, you can tell the difference immediately.



-Axiom- said:


> Why are you worried about killing hens?
> 
> Steelhead are doing well and are plentiful if this wasn't the case the DNR would do something about it, it's what they do.
> If killing hens or general harvest was an issue there would at least be a spawning closure.
> ...


This too is correct, it is the guides who are putting up a fuss, along with the chumming issue. I can say with certainty, as I saw it at the Onekama meeting, it is the guides on one particular river especially who want this change. This isn't about saving a resource to them, it is about saving a resource FOR them.


----------



## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

STEELnICE said:


> Platte might not be what it once was but I still get plenty and put most of them back. Its a one fish limit now and some days like today I happily rope one and wade back to my house.


Yep, she's a very special place to many of us... The ghost of Dick Swan still walks the banks. Having cars parked back to El Dorado for fishing, not beach going, those were the days. 200 surf fisherman and nearly everybody with at least one fish on a stringer. Halloween didn't just mean candy when I was growing up - it was the day before THE opener... Sure, there are a few decent days to be had each year if you have the luxury of fishing mid-week mornings, but really nothing in comparison. None the less, I still try to wake up and drive over there before work when it feels like a push is coming just because I remember those days when it was worth it.


----------



## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

toto said:


> Yeah and I know exactly who it was for the argument on letting people fish when the weir was opened. And I also know who the Co was that went along with it. At that time I talked to Rozich in the DNR who stated that is not the intention of the regulation, letting folks fish within 300 feet that is. I don't agree with it at all. If you use that logic than we should be able to fish within 300 feet of the Little Man weir too, but it isn't stated that way, in fact it is stated completely different for the LM than it is for the Platte. One other argument for the Platte was, well why not let the people catch the salmon that are in there at that time? Again, and they wonder where the steelies went on the Platte. The same person you are talking about that convinced the DNR also thinks Michigan fishing should be like the steel fishing in Pennsylvania too.


Yep, that's him... He and that CO used to fish together a lot and that was sort of at the heart of the issue. Thankfully the language in the regs was at least clarified so that the rest of us could join their little 'gate opener' party if we want, but in general, I concur, it just isn't that fun to hit a bunch of trout-pond steelies. Very much like a PA fishery ironically enough, but of course our fish actually fight.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Like I say if it is not broke don't fix it and don't give the DNR any ideas. The big ones will either be caught or die from spawning activity and there is plenty of spawning fish to replace the ones that are caught. The steelhead out there are put/take anyway so taking a few hurts nothing. What it comes down to is that the guys who cannot catch them want more fish in the river to waste there time on. Once I learned how to catch steelhead I have never had a problem catching 100+ steelhead a year and I have been doing it for a number of years.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

It is too bad that our natural resources are becoming a cash cow for guides, charters, and tournaments. If the special interest groups want the laws changed for their benefit they are no different than the PETA groups. Like I mentioned earlier the wader guy should have the same opportunity to harvest fish as the guy who owns a $50,000 boat.


----------



## Phoolish (Aug 17, 2011)

-Axiom- said:


> Why are you worried about killing hens?
> 
> Steelhead are doing well and are plentiful if this wasn't the case the DNR would do something about it, it's what they do.
> If killing hens or general harvest was an issue there would at least be a spawning closure.
> ...



i personally just prefer to release hens to give them more opportunity to spawn and target bucks. I wasnt saying there should be any change to the limit because i dont currently see a problem with the population. but if they were to change the limit Because of a low population I would rather just see a reduction in hens taken than put the limit at 1 like the OP said. To me it seems like it could grow the population while allowing ppl to keep the same amount of fish. Im not a biologist and I'm a novice compared to a lot of ppl on here but i was just saying i would rather see something like that than a single fish limit. Also wasnt trying to push my practices on anyone as long as youre legal i dont have a problem.


----------



## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

Yep BR, you are right, here's another argument though. IF they say you can fish up to the weir on the Platte because when the gate is open it is no longer a weir, wouldn't it stand that one should be able to do so on the Little Man for the same reason? Look, it is what it is, but I am one who believes in fair chase, and if the fish are pretty much penned in, how fair is that?


----------



## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

Robert Holmes said:


> It is too bad that our natural resources are becoming a cash cow for guides, charters, and tournaments. If the special interest groups want the laws changed for their benefit they are no different than the PETA groups. Like I mentioned earlier the wader guy should have the same opportunity to harvest fish as the guy who owns a $50,000 boat.


Like MAPR for steelhead. Those who get to do it 50 times a year or make a living doing it want to drive others away and curtail their activity to their personal benefit.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

The State of Michigan is an equal opportunity employer by law. Believe it or not they have hired Michigan Conservation Officers that could not tell a Canada Goose from a Mallard. I caught an Atlantic Salmon once and 4 USFWS biologists told me it was a steelhead. I really don't think that I would want to see a one hen limit. I have caught thousands of steelhead in my life and at times it is difficult to tell the difference in sex. Most of the people who have posted on this are river fishermen. So why do you want to change the rules inland when the lake fishermen are not going to have the same rules?


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

JVoutdoors said:


> Like MAPR for steelhead. Those who get to do it 50 times a year or make a living doing it want to drive others away and curtail their activity to their personal benefit.


When I get out of bed and get ready to go fishing if all that I see are $$$$$$$ then it is time to take up golf. I have a job that pays me $$$$, I fish to get into the outdoors and relax. If I take some fish home for dinner it is no different than hunting and it is a reward for the effort.


----------



## Phoolish (Aug 17, 2011)

Robert Holmes said:


> The State of Michigan is an equal opportunity employer by law. Believe it or not they have hired Michigan Conservation Officers that could not tell a Canada Goose from a Mallard. I caught an Atlantic Salmon once and 4 USFWS biologists told me it was a steelhead. I really don't think that I would want to see a one hen limit. I have caught thousands of steelhead in my life and at times it is difficult to tell the difference in sex. Most of the people who have posted on this are river fishermen. So why do you want to change the rules inland when the lake fishermen are not going to have the same rules?


That is why i worded my first post the way i did. My post was more of a hypothetical solution 


Phoolish said:


> Too bad steelhead dont have a really clear identifier to tell what are hens. because i would say max 1 hen but keep it the rest the same. By clear identifier i mean a different color or fin so ppl cant say i thought it was a hen. That way reproduction would stay up and you could still get spawn if you use it.


----------



## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

If they were to go to a 1 hen limit, then it needs to be statewide, river and lake. It doesn't matter more if a hen is bonked in the river; a dead hen never spawns, no matter where it's caught.

I don't know what to say/make/think of our fisheries anymore. It's all changed so drastically, people seem so different now and attitudes are quickly degrading. I feel the SW isn't reality, and the guys down there live in a totally different world than most of the rest of the state. The NW had very similar fishing at one time, but I feel they're getting a taste of reality, while the NE has been through hell and back, and is happy to have a slow rebound of sorts.

Either way man, people need to simply adapt to the current state of our fisheries and ride out these changes. I dislike seeing so much fighting, hate and sour attitudes. Change kinda sucks, but eventually, it can be good. Losing the fire that brought most of us to sites like this, and still brings us to the piers, surf, rivers and out in the boats should never die. I refuse to cry and quit my fishing. It's my life, and my absolute passion. I will keep doing it in this great State, no matter what.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Rainbowjack said:


> Exactly. You fish the UP. I do also and have for decades. I am talking about lake Michigan and its tribs. I spent many many years fishing the big water and fishing the tournament trail up and down the coast. If you dont think the big water boats will target and hammer the steel you are goofy


More so in the SW ports but the steelhead are not always the easiest fish to catch, even so it is more or less put/take in the southern waters. Every 5 miles down there the DNR plants 200,000 of them plus there are huge numbers planted by other states. I doubt that I will catch any less steelhead because of Charters. Last year EUP charters only caught 6 steelhead.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Rainbowjack said:


> I like the proactive approach not the wait and see approach. And I agree with put-and-take fish but I am talking about the wild fish. Obviously you know a bit about the offshore fishery. You know it isnt that hard to find the steelhead. And throw in the mix what the tournement boats will be targeting. I have caught thousands of Steelhead on the big water and mostly in the rivers obviously. It is undeniable that there is more pressure on steelhead in both the lakes and rivers than 25 years ago. Not many knew how/where to target them not too long ago or how to catch them efficiantly in the rivers. Things have changed


Not many of the wild (not hatchery) steelhead are really wild fish anymore. As for the tournament guys some will hope that they can catch enough 8 pound average steelhead to win but it still takes more steelhead to get the numbers that they are fishing for. A big lake trout, brown trout, or chinook can equal 3 steelhead. If you can find and catch three big chinook you can win a tournament. Less fish can make a tournament more exciting. They may have tournament rules to limit the take on steelhead also.


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Rainbowjack said:


> I like the proactive approach not the wait and see approach. And I agree with put-and-take fish but I am talking about the wild fish. Obviously you know a bit about the offshore fishery. You know it isnt that hard to find the steelhead. And throw in the mix what the tournement boats will be targeting. I have caught thousands of Steelhead on the big water and mostly in the rivers obviously. It is undeniable that there is more pressure on steelhead in both the lakes and rivers than 25 years ago. Not many knew how/where to target them not too long ago or how to catch them efficiantly in the rivers. Things have changed


Well, with the salmon crashing that is just going to be how it is. Unfortunately, there isn't a whole


Robert Holmes said:


> Not many of the wild (not hatchery) steelhead are really wild fish anymore. As for the tournament guys some will hope that they can catch enough 8 pound average steelhead to win but it still takes more steelhead to get the numbers that they are fishing for. A big lake trout, brown trout, or chinook can equal 3 steelhead. If you can find and catch three big chinook you can win a tournament. Less fish can make a tournament more exciting. They may have tournament rules to limit the take on steelhead also.


Now that king sizes are diminishing I see the tournament boats seem to like lakers due to them being easy to find and decent size.


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I'm not as concerned with the limits on steelhead, I'd like to see our rivers with Wild fish go to a 1 or 2 fish limit. Prairie Creek, PM, Little Man, Bear Creek, Betsie, Platte, Boyne, Jordan and I'm sure I've missed a few. Carry capacity in a typical year is most likely met by spawning pairs in those tribs currently, and river temps winter and summer dictate more or less reproduction. But I'd like to see if it increases runs or not. 

What I'm more concerned about is the education of releasing steelhead if you choose to release them, education on fighting them fast and releasing them fast. I think as many steelhead die from poor handling that die as a result of ropes and that is just sad. We need more education on handling, releasing, and fighting fish. 

My biggest concern though is the absolute destruction of the habitat on some of our rivers, we should all band together and focus on stream bank rehab, eliminating camp fires on our streams. What impact would this have on our fishery? We would not even need to talk about limits if our smolts both wild and planted had colder rivers, more places to hide. We would all enjoy fishing better defined runs and holes. I've fished four different systems this spring, all had camp fires burning, walk the little man and see the beat paths that used to have Alder all over them. I'm tired of it, if you need to bring a saw to the river to build a fire to keep warm, bring a dam mr heater.


----------



## STEELnICE (Dec 4, 2007)

They're also surviving and reproducing better eating less alewives, fewer steelhead means bigger steelhead. I'm not worried about the size of the population at all. If you know your system is not stocked, limit your kill. If you know your system gets stocked, kill your limit. Plain and simple.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

STEELnICE said:


> They're also surviving and reproducing better eating less alewives, fewer steelhead means bigger steelhead. I'm not worried about the size of the population at all. If you know your system is not stocked, limit your kill. If you know your system gets stocked, kill your limit. Plain and simple.


In the last two years I have caught more and larger steelhead so the steelhead are improving or I am improving. I think that less salmon will provide a steelhead bonanza and I am willing to trade.


----------



## Rainbowjack (Jul 10, 2015)

I am done with this thread. Keep drinking the kool-aid. Rock on


----------



## o_mykiss (May 21, 2013)

Steelheadfred said:


> I'm not as concerned with the limits on steelhead, I'd like to see our rivers with Wild fish go to a 1 or 2 fish limit. Prairie Creek, PM, Little Man, Bear Creek, Betsie, Platte, Boyne, Jordan and I'm sure I've missed a few. Carry capacity in a typical year is most likely met by spawning pairs in those tribs currently, and river temps winter and summer dictate more or less reproduction. But I'd like to see if it increases runs or not.
> 
> *What I'm more concerned about is the education of releasing steelhead if you choose to release them, education on fighting them fast and releasing them fast*. I think as many steelhead die from poor handling that die as a result of ropes and that is just sad. We need more education on handling, releasing, and fighting fish.
> 
> My biggest concern though is the absolute destruction of the habitat on some of our rivers, we should all band together and focus on stream bank rehab, eliminating camp fires on our streams. What impact would this have on our fishery? We would not even need to talk about limits if our smolts both wild and planted had colder rivers, more places to hide. We would all enjoy fishing better defined runs and holes. I've fished four different systems this spring, all had camp fires burning, walk the little man and see the beat paths that used to have Alder all over them. I'm tired of it, if you need to bring a saw to the river to build a fire to keep warm, bring a dam mr heater.


Especially that bolded part... people hammering dropbacks has to result in a ton of mortality. And skamania in warm water temps too. Not to mention all the videos I see of people "reviving" a steelhead in a cloud of muddy sediment their boots just kicked up


----------



## lodge lounger (Sep 16, 2005)

What a lot of anglers don't realize is that beaching fish or landing them in very shallow water is a primary cause of mortality in released fish. Using a proper net is your best bet for keeping the mortality of released fish low.


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

lodge lounger said:


> What a lot of anglers don't realize is that beaching fish or landing them in very shallow water is a primary cause of mortality in released fish. Using a proper net is your best bet for keeping the mortality of released fish low.


Do you have evidence in studies? I rarely carry a net and tail/beach fish unhook then guide back into the water without picking up. I have caught the same fish over many times, including one hen that was caught 3 times within a week this year. I would be interested in read8ng a study. Imo if i am catching and releasing fish I would rather not have them in a net or put my hands on them at all.


----------



## o_mykiss (May 21, 2013)

http://forum.skagitmaster.com/index.php?topic=330.0

http://www2.humboldt.edu/cuca/documents/publications/Taylor&BarnhartSteelhead.pdf


Everybody's practices differ. Beaching fish on sand is different than a mud flat is different than a rocky shoreline. Everybody has a different proficiency at removing hooks and/or taking a picture. LOTs of variables. 

In my opinion, fishing in colder water temperature is the MOST important factor, beyond that, playing the fish quickly and not having it out of the water for a long time are the two most important factors.


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

o_mykiss said:


> http://forum.skagitmaster.com/index.php?topic=330.0
> 
> http://www2.humboldt.edu/cuca/documents/publications/Taylor&BarnhartSteelhead.pdf
> 
> ...


Exactly what I was thinking. I don't hardly ever take a pic anymore and fish a lot of low gradient areas that usually are rocky, except bank fishing the Muskegon.


----------



## lodge lounger (Sep 16, 2005)

Here are a couple articles worth reading, dealing with beaching fish and water temperature. I can't say they are definitive, just offer them as additional input:

http://www.ginkandgasoline.com/steelhead/you-may-be-killing-steelhead-and-not-even-know-it/

http://www2.humboldt.edu/cuca/documents/publications/Taylor&BarnhartSteelhead.pdf

Always heard beaching steelhead was a bad deal, but the first article opened my eyes to why.


----------



## lodge lounger (Sep 16, 2005)

HAH! See you beat me to the punch on the Humboldt article MK! So the point is...be gentle releasing them fish!


----------



## o_mykiss (May 21, 2013)

Not that the gink and gasoline article doesn't make SOME sense, but the author admits in the comments section that he can't actually find the study he's referencing... so take that with a grain of salt


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

lodge lounger said:


> HAH! See you beat me to the punch on the Humboldt article MK! So the point is...be gentle releasing them fish!


If i land a skam in warm water or see a fish not doing so hot it dies. Always someone looking for a steelhead.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Spring steelhead fishing in rivers is somewhat limited without new rules. Most guys will not go after them in the extreme cold. It was 8 degrees Saturday when I got to the river, nobody else was there. The runoff and rain can make rivers to high and muddy to fish. In late spring the bugs can make it difficult for a person to want to fish.


----------



## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

*Changing Steelhead Limits?*

We going to 4?


----------



## big_phish (Jan 1, 2009)

Martin3to1 said:


> Is it time to start thinking about reducing steelhead limits? 1 a day? Increasing the catch and release sections? I am all for keeping a fish, but the number of guys I see keeping everything makes me cringe as I feel like we are depleting an awesome resource. What are your thoughts?



What's the difference between a guy who is up fishing for a week at his cabin and keeps a fish a day vs a guy who comes up for a day every few weeks and keeps his limit? Something to think about.


----------



## big_phish (Jan 1, 2009)

rippin lip said:


> Had a guy today rope 3 fish in front of me. He Kept on fishing to try and catch his buddys limit for him. I told the guy he's limited out and to step back and an argument ensued. Was I wrong? Or is the guy allowed to keep fishing after his three fish were roped?



Rippin Lip, the limit as stated in the DNR hand book is a daily possession of 5 fish but only 3 of one kind. That's the key phrase. If a guy catches 3 steelhead, he can keep fishing because the can still keep a brown trout if he catches 1 that is legal. Same thing once walleyes open up again. Sorry about the guy being an ass but he could still fish until he has his 5 fish limit.


----------



## Rainbowjack (Jul 10, 2015)

Trout King said:


> "Wild" refers to fish that have naturalized to their environment within this region. I am always careful to not say "native". They can be wild and not native. Of course all rainbows and browns, even most lower penninsula brook trout are derived from hatcheries. "Wild" merely refers to populations that do not directly come from plantings, but have found the habitat suitable to reproduce without being stocked.



Thank you but I am very well aware of what people mean when they say wild and I know the difference. My point exactly


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Lol...this thread is a classic.


----------



## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

ausable_steelhead said:


> Then you get the locals who are retired or unemployed, who are down there day after day after day, keeping every fish they catch. I get really tired of seeing a bunch of wild fish, dead on a stringer or in a trash bag on the ground. What do people do with all those steelhead? Surely no one likes eating them THAT much...


 That sounds like me 10 years ago ( gave a lot of smoked fish away in years past years, but with no returns for my good deeds i quit ) my count this spring was low 31 landed, smoked only 4, haven't got out in the last two weeks ( but now that the green house is up n running ) So watch out number 32 i'll SMOKE ya


----------



## Rainbowjack (Jul 10, 2015)

You think all is fine with your steelhead population? The LM weir STARTED egg take yesterday and COMPLETED today with a total of 800 fish passed and are HOPING to resume eggtake next week depending on fish acumulation. If you dont think that is scary you are sadly mistaken.


----------



## STEELnICE (Dec 4, 2007)

Rainbowjack said:


> You think all is fine with your steelhead population? The LM weir STARTED egg take yesterday and COMPLETED today with a total of 800 fish passed and are HOPING to resume eggtake next week depending on fish acumulation. If you dont think that is scary you are sadly mistaken.


They easily could have had it done by the end of March, tons of fish spawned before the weir was fully in place. If there isn't another run after this rain they should've started collecting over a month ago. The wild fish are doing just fine, believe it!


----------



## STEELnICE (Dec 4, 2007)

Exactly one week ago my crew got 12 in a day, mostly spawned out. 2 Days later we got 15, same spawned out story, all above the weir. You don't want to know how many we banked this glorious El Nino winter. Chrome pushes all sorry excuse for a winter long.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Rainbowjack said:


> Call them whatever the $#&× you want to holmes. Then by your thinking we might as well eliminate Steelhead along with Salmon and Brown trout and pheasants and turkeys...etc


No!!!!! that is my license dollars at work keeping the south loaded with wild critters and wild fish. Have another hard root beer Jack.


----------



## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

Trout King said:


> You mean people kill wild steelhead all season, but these streams continue to get fish year after year? Amazing how nature allows for survival of species. It doesn't take very many spawning fish to procreate the next generation. If you let all of those fish spawn and didn't kill any there would only be "x" amount surviving to run due to carrying capacity, be it in the stream, main river, or big lakes. Basically, you cannot stockpile fish.
> 
> The DNR has done studies on the subject. When you get a chance search them, very interesting reads. All I am going to say is that it is hard for recreational and sport fisherman to clean out a stream. Combine fishing and environmental factors, that is where it gets interesting.


TK, a few post back you asked about RH's APR comparison to this subject. I didn't see him respond to it (may have missed it) but I agree with him and you sort of make the case here. IMO, many of the APR crowd want to stockpile bucks and make everyone not shoot them until they are antler porn. A comparison could also be made to they are not good hunters (fisherman) so they think the more of the targeted species there are they may have a better chance of getting one. And some have way to much time to hunt (fish) or a business interest and take it all way to serious and people like me eating the steelhead (little bucks) is a risk to their strongly held beliefs, property leasing, float guide service, fill in the blanks... always amazes me that some believe changing the regs that only the law abiding will follow, will curtail illegal and unethical behavior. Slobs and poachers will live on forever...


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I think that the APR started in the UP about 1996 with deer. The people who started it own lots of private land surrounded by federal land and they wanted to put pressure on the federal land hunters so that their private land opportunities would improve. The same thing can be said about fishing. People have various interests in being able to catch fish and lots of them. Like salmon the steelhead move throughout a river system and do not stay in any one place for too long. Changing limits will not change anyone's opportunity to catch a fish. If you are a guide or charter sure you would like more fish for your clients because happy clients pay more money. I paid for my license that allows me to keep x number of fish per day. This is based on whatever sound science that the DNR uses and we should be happy with that. If steelhead don't show up in X creek it is because the habitat is not suitable for them not because we need to change the limit to make that water better fishing. If you cannot catch a steelhead it is not because there is a shortage of them, you just need to change locations or get schooled.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Rainbowjack said:


> The rivers I fish in the LP get ZERO plants. I see wild fish drug up and down the banks all season long


There is a reason that the DNR does not plant them. It is either that the habitat is not suitable or that the water warms up too fast. In these waters it does absolutely no good to release steelhead. They might spawn but the fry will not survive due to water temperature. If they spawn chances are good that the mature fish will not survive to make it back to the lake. The steelhead that come into these waters are doing so because the river is available. In the LP there are lots or streams like that, even the Cass, Flint, and Tibbitawassee hold steelhead.


----------



## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> There is a reason that the DNR does not plant them. It is either that the habitat is not suitable or that the water warms up too fast. In these waters it does absolutely no good to release steelhead. They might spawn but the fry will not survive due to water temperature. If they spawn chances are good that the mature fish will not survive to make it back to the lake. The steelhead that come into these waters are doing so because the river is available. In the LP there are lots or streams like that, even the Cass, Flint, and Tibbitawassee hold steelhead.


I think Rainbow Jack is talking about Rivers that have a self sustaining population of "wild" fish, no stocking and the fish ARE naturally reproducing. The Saginaw Tribs you are talking connect to a river that is stocked, those fish were confused...


----------



## Rainbowjack (Jul 10, 2015)

Robert Holmes said:


> There is a reason that the DNR does not plant them. It is either that the habitat is not suitable or that the water warms up too fast. In these waters it does absolutely no good to release steelhead. They might spawn but the fry will not survive due to water temperature. If they spawn chances are good that the mature fish will not survive to make it back to the lake. The steelhead that come into these waters are doing so because the river is available. In the LP there are lots or streams like that, even the Cass, Flint, and Tibbitawassee hold steelhead.


1) i dont believe in "sound" advise the DNR wants to flat their jaws about. Example, the wolf population.
2) the streams and rivers I fish are in the NW LP and do have substantial natural reproduction so......all I here from you holmes is Blah blah blah

Ps. I bet you are one of those yoopers who thought all of the guys who have built cabins and camps on federal land should have been able to keep them?


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Check to see where they are planted in the NLP and UP. For every place that they are planted there are miles and many places that they do not get planted for obvious reasons. The plants are also very limited in the few places that get plants. Some of the unmentionables that never get planted get terrific runs of steelhead. In the UP you might have to drive 100 miles or more from one planting location to the next. Even so if they never planted another steelhead in the UP for the next 20 years the steelhead fishing would be just as good.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Jack I have fished many streams in the NWLP and NELP and I have seen and caught plenty of steelhead. I release all of them from the LP because the fishing pressure is much heavier down there. I have never had a problem catching them though. I could hit a couple of spots in the NWLP this afternoon and probably C&R a dozen steelhead. If by chance I rope one for the grill that is why I buy a license. It is no different than small game or deer hunting.


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Rainbowjack said:


> 1) i dont believe in "sound" advise the DNR wants to flat their jaws about. Example, the wolf population.
> 2) the streams and rivers I fish are in the NW LP and do have substantial natural reproduction so......all I here from you holmes is Blah blah blah
> 
> Ps. I bet you are one of those yoopers who thought all of the guys who have built cabins and camps on federal land should have been able to keep them?


You mad bro?


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Trout King said:


> You mad bro?


He just has a beef with me cause I roped a few wild steelhead this year. None as in 0 out of LP waters. Don't take it personal Jack keeping a few here and there 100 miles from where you fish does not hurt your opportunity to catch a wild steelhead. During the month of April I have only kept 1 steelhead for the record.


----------



## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

Trout King said:


> You mad bro?


LMAO. Someone needs a big trout hug...


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

JVoutdoors said:


> LMAO. Someone needs a big trout hug...


I figured everyone needed a laugh.


----------



## Rainbowjack (Jul 10, 2015)

Trout King said:


> You mad bro?


Not hardly. I just know when somebody is talking out of their #*%


----------



## Rainbowjack (Jul 10, 2015)

And fyi, I dont have a beef with keeping some fish. My emphasis is on respecting the resource. I have caught countless steel in the UP and LP. When I was a younger lad I would drag my 5 up and down the steams many a day in the spring. BUT, that was back when NOBODY fished winter or fall. You would NEVER see another bootprint in the snow all season. Now the trails along those rivers are beat down to hard packed ice all winter. And in the spring when I would maybe run in to one or two groups now it is tuff to get a hole to fish and the paths look like they are beat down by cattle. I am simply saying dont learn from our mistakes, stop them from ever getting to that point.


----------



## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

What's the difference between a plant and a natural? One spawning cycle. Today's plants, producing tomorrows naturals.


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Rainbowjack said:


> And fyi, I dont have a beef with keeping some fish. My emphasis is on respecting the resource. I have caught countless steel in the UP and LP. When I was a younger lad I would drag my 5 up and down the steams many a day in the spring. BUT, that was back when NOBODY fished winter or fall. You would NEVER see another bootprint in the snow all season. Now the trails along those rivers are beat down to hard packed ice all winter. And in the spring when I would maybe run in to one or two groups now it is tuff to get a hole to fish and the paths look like they are beat down by cattle. I am simply saying dont learn from our mistakes, stop them from ever getting to that point.


Is it pressure or lack of fish? The pressure will fade. The kings are done, but everything else seems to be doing fine. The lake will find it's balance.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Jack, let me help you catch more steelhead. Keep this in mind 10% of fishermen catch 90% of the fish. That leaves 90% of the fishermen catching 10% of the fish. I fish sections of stream right behind other fishermen and do pretty good. Just because a hole is fished does not mean it is fished out. I might spend 3 hours fishing 50 yards of a stream prior to moving on. A day of fishing I might hit 4 short stretches of river. I don't care how many people have fished in front of me I will still catch fish. Also try fishing for steelhead at night 3 am until after daylight sometime (use spawn). You will be surprised at what happens. You will have the whole river to yourself and you will catch fish. I fish when everyone is sleeping and sleep when everyone is fishing.


----------



## TreeDizzle (Oct 19, 2005)

JVoutdoors said:


> TK, a few post back you asked about RH's APR comparison to this subject. I didn't see him respond to it (may have missed it) but I agree with him and you sort of make the case here. IMO, many of the APR crowd want to stockpile bucks and make everyone not shoot them until they are antler porn. A comparison could also be made to they are not good hunters (fisherman) so they think the more of the targeted species there are they may have a better chance of getting one. And some have way to much time to hunt (fish) or a business interest and take it all way to serious and people like me eating the steelhead (little bucks) is a risk to their strongly held beliefs, property leasing, float guide service, fill in the blanks... always amazes me that some believe changing the regs that only the law abiding will follow, will curtail illegal and unethical behavior. Slobs and poachers will live on forever...


I didn't read your referenced post on APRs, but I think some are missing the point to APRs and in this case steelhead limits. I agree with others on here and as TK stated, limit changes won't affect much. Ultimately, the focus should is, how can we better manage the resource? If rivers are not at their carrying capacities and fish are getting raped by snaggers, a decreased limit may be beneficial to that particular stream. The issue is that there isn't a blanket regulation that will benefit every stream. APRs, I don't necessarily see the correlation to fish limits(maybe one buck rule(which I don't believe would benefit much)), are designed to protect the majority of the yearling bucks to benefit the herd structure and health of the deer heard. If the deer population in a particular area is above carrying capacity, more deer need to be killed and it is up to the outdoorsman to help manage the resource. I don't think steelhead are hard to come by in Michigan. If people enjoy keeping 3 steelhead/day, I would hope that the fillets and eggs are put to use and not thrown in a freezer, then trashed a year later. 

Nobody can control what others think and do, and there will always be slobs that go against the grain. As long as I do my part and teach my kids/friends to do the same, that's about all that I can control. Enjoy what's left in the rivers gentlemen, it's April...and steelhead are last on my list!


----------



## Rainbowjack (Jul 10, 2015)

Robert Holmes said:


> Jack, let me help you catch more steelhead. Keep this in mind 10% of fishermen catch 90% of the fish. That leaves 90% of the fishermen catching 10% of the fish. I fish sections of stream right behind other fishermen and do pretty good. Just because a hole is fished does not mean it is fished out. I might spend 3 hours fishing 50 yards of a stream prior to moving on. A day of fishing I might hit 4 short stretches of river. I don't care how many people have fished in front of me I will still catch fish. Also try fishing for steelhead at night 3 am until after daylight sometime (use spawn). You will be surprised at what happens. You will have the whole river to yourself and you will catch fish. I fish when everyone is sleeping and sleep when everyone is fishing.



LMAO, I have probably caught or guided people into more steelhead in more states and countries than the majority. I have had more double digit day than i can remember. I do remember a 3 fish in 3 different streams in the UP in one day though. That was a memorable one. Bout the only thing you could help me out with is taking pictures lol


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Rainbowjack said:


> LMAO, I have probably caught or guided people into more steelhead in more states and countries than the majority. I have had more double digit day than i can remember. I do remember a 3 fish in 3 different streams in the UP in one day though. That was a memorable one. Bout the only thing you could help me out with is taking pictures lol


Neat.


----------



## wyandot (Dec 5, 2013)

Rainbowjack said:


> LMAO, I have probably caught or guided people into more steelhead in more states and countries than the majority. I have had more double digit day than i can remember. I do remember a 3 fish in 3 different streams in the UP in one day though. That was a memorable one. Bout the only thing you could help me out with is taking pictures lol


So basically the limit should be lowered to suit Your needs, and piss on everyone else?


----------



## Rainbowjack (Jul 10, 2015)

wyandot said:


> So basically the limit should be lowered to suit Your needs, and piss on everyone else?


What needs? So I can catch more fish? If yes then my answer is no. If I dont catch another steelhead the rest of my life I am ok with that. I just want the resource to be around for many generations to enjoy like I did


----------



## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

The DNR has stated that the limit of 3 steelhead is fine, and the fishery can support 3 fish per day. If the DNR is correct, and I'll assume they know more than me, or anyone else about the numbers, than what's the problem? I don't keep my limit everytime I can, do I at times, yep, but not as a general rule. It's a put and take fishery and again, if the DNR says the numbers are there, I'll stick with the experts.


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

toto said:


> The DNR has stated that the limit of 3 steelhead is fine, and the fishery can support 3 fish per day. If the DNR is correct, and I'll assume they know more than me, or anyone else about the numbers, than what's the problem? I don't keep my limit everytime I can, do I at times, yep, but not as a general rule. It's a put and take fishery and again, if the DNR says the numbers are there, I'll stick with the experts.


The problem, I believe, is some people feel slighted that other people catch fish that they believe they should be catching if the fish were released.
Some are clearly concerned the sky is falling on our steelhead fishery, though our biologists have addressed multiple times that our steelhesd fishery is healthy. The great thing about steelhead is that they are not dependent on alewives and the state has the capacity to stock more if need be. Don't get me wrong, I love wild fish, they seem to have their own little nuances from system to system, but I haven't noticed a significant decrease in population, but have noticed a influx in pressure the last few years. Any fisherman can attest that pressured fish become harder to catch especially in smaller rivers and streams where it seems most wild steelhead propogate. 
This winter was very mild too, I saw a lot of spawning fish or signs that fish had been actively spawning in February this year on a couple rivers with a predominantly wild population of fish.


----------



## JVoutdoors (Sep 23, 2013)

TreeDizzle said:


> I didn't read your referenced post on APRs, but I think some are missing the point to APRs and in this case steelhead limits. I agree with others on here and as TK stated, limit changes won't affect much. Ultimately, the focus should is, how can we better manage the resource? If rivers are not at their carrying capacities and fish are getting raped by snaggers, a decreased limit may be beneficial to that particular stream. The issue is that there isn't a blanket regulation that will benefit every stream. APRs, I don't necessarily see the correlation to fish limits(maybe one buck rule(which I don't believe would benefit much)), are designed to protect the majority of the yearling bucks to benefit the herd structure and health of the deer heard. If the deer population in a particular area is above carrying capacity, more deer need to be killed and it is up to the outdoorsman to help manage the resource. I don't think steelhead are hard to come by in Michigan. If people enjoy keeping 3 steelhead/day, I would hope that the fillets and eggs are put to use and not thrown in a freezer, then trashed a year later.
> 
> Nobody can control what others think and do, and there will always be slobs that go against the grain. As long as I do my part and teach my kids/friends to do the same, that's about all that I can control. Enjoy what's left in the rivers gentlemen, it's April...and steelhead are last on my list!


TD, I would pretty much agree with your well written post. My comparison to APRs is I see a similar high level arguments for APRs as those made for reducing opportunity for fishing trout. The motivation many times is for some to want to restrict or limit others ONLY for their perceived personal gain or narrow minded selfish reasons. Neighbor shot my buck before it got huge or the billy on the river bank is keeping all the fish. That are a put and take as stated by others. Because they struggle catching fish or shooting nice bucks. Or they get to do it so much and are so good that they argue that catch and release should be the law of the land. My position for shooting deer or catching and keeping fish; Do not worry about what I shoot or keep as long as it is legal and ethical. You are dead on about trying to influence others to be a good stewards. Going through that with my grandson now. Teaching him about it is fishing, not always catching and keeping. And not every deer looks like the TV shows and antler jealousy is weak thing for a man to exhibit. And stringer jealousy also.


----------



## TK81 (Mar 28, 2009)

Trout King said:


> The problem, I believe, is some people feel slighted that other people catch fish that they believe they should be catching if the fish were released.
> Some are clearly concerned the sky is falling on our steelhead fishery, though our biologists have addressed multiple times that our steelhesd fishery is healthy. The great thing about steelhead is that they are not dependent on alewives and the state has the capacity to stock more if need be. Don't get me wrong, I love wild fish, they seem to have their own little nuances from system to system, but I haven't noticed a significant decrease in population, but have noticed a influx in pressure the last few years. Any fisherman can attest that pressured fish become harder to catch especially in smaller rivers and streams where it seems most wild steelhead propogate.
> This winter was very mild too, I saw a lot of spawning fish or signs that fish had been actively spawning in February this year on a couple rivers with a predominantly wild population of fish.


I am a bit restricted right now with job and kids. Only one steelhead trip this year. I snuck out out the Monday after Good Friday for a quick one day trip to one of my favorite NW streams. Polished gravel everywhere. I went 3 for 4 and only 1 was fresh. 2 were spawned out. I wanted to fish some dark water, but I was too late. I walked about a mile and half and saw very few fish. Normally, the gravel has barely been worked on Good Friday. Guys did great all winter on the streams in my locale.

Changing the limit will have little effect. The amount of food in the big lake and the rivers / streams dictates how many fish we can "stockpile." I think you nailed it with your statement that most people, especially the elitists amongst us, don't want anyone roping fish on "their" rivers because that is less fish for them to hook. I am even guilty of this. I have watched a few locals on a couple of my NW streams that seem to be there every time I get a chance to go there. I see John Doe walk a fish or two to his car, knowing that he does this daily for a couple months straight. I like John Doe for the most part, I'm just jealous that he gets on these beautiful rivers anytime he wants and I am stuck behind a keyboard. Funny thing is that it never seems to hurt the following year's run.


----------



## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

Trout King said:


> Funny, considering I fished NW Michigan more than down here this year. Steelhead fishing is easy anywhere on the right days. I got skunked more on my home stream this year than I did in the trips I made north and I fished it less.
> 
> I fished one of you favorite little streams last year in early May while up for a trout fishing adventure, I ended up fishing for steelhead because there were so many around and the trout weren't biting. Double digit hookups on waxworms since I had no spawn on me. I didn't even see another sole.
> 
> I guess I just have become numb to other people and what they choose to do on the river. I mind my own and it is more enjoyable than worrying about others, after all I fish for fun and if I am not going to have fun I am not going.


Neat story. I know which river you fished, but have never, ever fished it. Lots of private property, so I said screw it. My loss. I have the will to catch steelhead this time of year, but lack the motivation to put in the effort. Need to find it again, I guess...


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

ausable_steelhead said:


> Neat story. I know which river you fished, but have never, ever fished it. Lots of private property, so I said screw it. My loss. I have the will to catch steelhead this time of year, but lack the motivation to put in the effort. Need to find it again, I guess...


I feel you on that. As I get older and busier with my young family my motivation to chase spring steelhead all over has faded, now with trout seasoning opening this weekend I have a fairly strong determination to fish and fish hard.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

It is what it is 3 per day. The only changes will be made by the DNR or the NRC and if they make changes I will live with that. Right now with less salmon in the hatcheries there is more room for the steelhead. So if anything it is likely that they might increase limits. I don't have a problem with that either. I don't have a beef with anyone that keeps some steelhead and I don't have a beef with a C&R guy. Just keep what you are going to use and use what you keep.


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

If all this worry and effort went into habitat and steam rehab, how well could we increase the carry capacity of our rivers with naturalized steelhead?

Really if concerned, Let's change upstream limits and let fish spawn in peace.


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Trout King said:


> The problem, I believe, is some people feel slighted that other people catch fish that they believe they should be catching if the fish were released.
> Some are clearly concerned the sky is falling on our steelhead fishery, though our biologists have addressed multiple times that our steelhesd fishery is healthy. The great thing about steelhead is that they are not dependent on alewives and the state has the capacity to stock more if need be. Don't get me wrong, I love wild fish, they seem to have their own little nuances from system to system, but I haven't noticed a significant decrease in population, but have noticed a influx in pressure the last few years. Any fisherman can attest that pressured fish become harder to catch especially in smaller rivers and streams where it seems most wild steelhead propogate.
> This winter was very mild too, I saw a lot of spawning fish or signs that fish had been actively spawning in February this year on a couple rivers with a predominantly wild population of fish.



Right on, but they don't have capacity to plant more, they received a grant that is intended to build more space to raise another 200 to 250k steelhead. Only one hatchery growing steelhead.


----------



## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Steelheadfred said:


> Right on, but they don't have capacity to plant more, they received a grant that is intended to build more space to raise another 200 to 250k steelhead. Only one hatchery growing steelhead.


I completely understand that, I am all on board with upstream limits on some streams, but I don't want to see a push for more "flies only water", just make them a type 3.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Trout King said:


> I completely understand that, I am all on board with upstream limits on some streams, but I don't want to see a push for more "flies only water", just make them a type 3.


I am all for upstream limits but for C&R only. Leave the water a type IV and close the gravel to keeping any fish. They should do this with salmon also.


----------



## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Why? What makes the "gravel" anymore special then the lake, or deep river when it comes to keeping fish? It is an access area many count on that don't own boats.


----------

