# Gait and Endurance



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

chewy said:


> gait and speed go hand in hand u can't be fast with a bad gait


I agree but, the weird thing is I had a shorthair that ran good in the field and was pretty fast too but, when she walked her rear end would kind of go side to side, almost waddle but, she ran good in the field. Strange. Again, I wouldn't say she had a good gait but, somehow she ran O.K. That dog had major drive so, maybe that is why she would hunt all day long even when she was injured.


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

gundogguy said:


> It is what it is.
> 
> In judging dogs the gait and stlye are the first things that will catch me eye, now does the dog have bird finding ability and *the courage to take the bird out* or does he change speeds to finalize the find, gait and enedurance will win out in the end.


 
My dog has proven time after time he has the courage to take the bird out... usually after holding point just long enough for me to be near by when he does. :lol:

It sounds like we all agree, but the problem is I doubt we would agree if we all evaluated 10 dogs and compared notes.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Flash01 said:


> ...the problem is I doubt we would agree if we all evaluated 10 dogs and compared notes.


I don't know if that's true... 

I agree that like anything else related to hunting dogs, folks are going to fall prey to "rose colored glasses syndrome" with regard to our their own pup. "My dog has an unbelievable nose." "My dog is a picture on point." "My 99lb Ryman floats through the woods like a ghost fart riding a cloud on a breezy afternoon."

But line up 10 dogs and objectively watch how they carry themselves on the run. If you're paying attention, I don't think it's too hard to see the difference. And unlike a lot of the things we evaluate dogs on, this one is visible, if not measurable.

KW


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## rmw (Feb 21, 2006)

Float is a great description , the ground pounders sound like a horse when they run by


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

And gait has as much to do with how they put together. And some of the dogs that have been brought up in this discussion do not have a great gait maybe a good gait. When picking out pups paying attenion to the parents gait and how they are put together should be very high on the list
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

a nice smooth long stride is a function of conformation. if a dog has excellent conformation it will show up under motion.

if you were a horseman with performance animals, you wouldnt even ask this question.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

dogwhistle said:


> a nice smooth long stride is a function of conformation. if a dog has excellent conformation it will show up under motion.
> 
> if you were a horseman with performance animals, you wouldnt even ask this question.


I agree with the principle however the definition of conformation isnt clear. 

if you use a breed standard I will disagree. how a dog walks and how a dog runs are different. breed standards are show dog stuff and they examine gait while walking/skipping with them. I have seen dogs walk as smooth as silk but run rougher than a girls face on an acne infomercial.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

chewy said:


> if you use a breed standard I will disagree. how a dog walks and how a dog runs are different. breed standards are show dog stuff and they examine gait while walking/skipping with them. I have seen dogs walk as smooth as silk but run rougher than a girls face on an acne infomercial.


Gospel.

And why nobody hunts with a bench dog.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

The reality is most dogs don't get enough exercise and that is why they can't last all day. I have seen dogs with great gaits slow down after a few hours of hunting. They have a great gait but no endurance. Eventually the hunt slows to a walk. I watched a Golden this past fall in Iowa with a horrible gait hunt 4 hours straight then break for lunch and then hunt 5 more hours. The dog did this three days in a row. Not the dogs fault it has a poor gait. It had cancer on its left front shoulder and all the muscle was removed from that shoulder. The dog was in excellent shape otherwise.

Don't give them cheese burgers and exercise them every day. And exercise them hard a couple days a week. They will have the endurance to hunt all day regardles of gait. But I see a lot of owners that need a slow dog the owner is to fat to keep up anyway.

He hunted in a t-shirt because he still had a fresh scar from the surgery


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

RecurveRx said:


> And why nobody hunts with a bench dog.


Not true.

I can think of some bench Pointers that see a fair amount of time in the field that get the job done and I think a fair number of versatiles out there that are shown as well. ie - I'm not sure there is even a distinction between field and show with Bracco's and Spinoni. They are what they are.

Aren't some Abby Lane dogs shown too?

Gait aside, bench dogs are regularly hunted. That doesn't mean there aren't some obvious reasons to go for a field bred dog instead however.

Sorry Mike, I had to call you out on that one.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

No need to apologize.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

A good fresh snow fall about 3 inches of not to wet, not to fluffy will shed some light on gait.

Swimming believe it or not will also, in clear water.

Great discussion, thanks Crosswinds for the info, good stuff DC also.


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## J-Lee (Jul 11, 2000)

A dog with proper conformation, will cover more ground with less effort whether it is a field dog, bench dog or a Heinz 57.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

Many people think that conformation is a show thing that has nothing to do with a practical hunting or trial dog. Actually, whether we realize it or not, a dog is able to do is job because he is built to do it. The better built he is for the physical demands of his job, the better he can execute his job and, on average, the less physical problems he will accrue as he ages.
We are fond of saying that performance testing and field trials insure proper functional conformation, but this is not the case. Physical ability is only part of the test. So it is often the case that the best physical specimen might not win a trial for a variety of reasons. Perhaps his training is lacking or he did not have bird work. There could be any number of reasons as to why the most physically capable dog might not win a given trial.
Certain other dogs may, by contrast, have serious conformation flaws but have so much desire that they make up for their lack of physical prowess and win on heart. Still others may have flaws, which may show up later in life but are not readily apparent in youngsters. Either way, dogs with even serious flaws, such as bad hips, can and have won FDSB championships.
Having said that performance testing is no guarantee of proper functional conformation in any given dog , it must also be said that the opposite opinion, that a conformation is test is also a guarantee of soundness, is even less true. Exclusively examining a dogs physical structure, even in great detail such as is done at dog shows, is also no guarantee of proper physical abilities that a dog must possess. Even if the standards were accurate and scientifically proven, there is a lot that is hidden from our eyes and measuring tape, from things such as weak tendons in joints, bad hips, inadequate lung capacity and the like, to a variety of physical defects such as bad lungs or weak heart, to the vast and mysterious chemical processes by which animals process oxygen, metabolize food and water into useable energy, and rid themselves of excess heat.
Yet there is something to be learned from examining physical conformation. In our quest for finding and recognizing better and better bird dogs, physical conformation is part of the puzzle and so should not be ignored. What is learned about functional conformation cant help but to be of benefit to both breeder and trialer.
Recently I viewed a 90 minute dog training video which contained a section on conformation. The man on the tape looked for two things, a high, cracky tail and straight legs. The fact is that in most books and vidoes these days, functional conformation is not discussed in great detail. 
Delmar Smith outlines several principles in his book (written by Bill Tarrant.) For Delmar a high tailed dog meant that a dog had longer muscles in the hip area and could run better. He likes a dog slightly cow-hocked in the back, tight sound feet, and high set toenails. But most of his emphasis comes on the legs. His advice is still worth reading. 
The most interesting book that I have encountered on the subject is Dog Locomotion And Gait Analysis by Curtis Brown. His book is intended for dog show judges but this is not to imply that the author goes easy on dog shows. "It is unfortunate," he writes in the Preface of his book, "that some poorly established conclusions about locomotion have such wide credence in dog show circles, and particularly unfortunate because many of the conclusions now fostered are diametrically opposed to what now appears to be fact by provable measurements."
Brown studied not only dogs but also studied various wild canines and even other animals. For example, Brown notes a nearly upright shoulder angle in cheetahs as well as jack rabbits. Noting that these animals are built for short bursts of speed, but do not possess a lot of stamina, Brown notes that documented measurements of various dog breeds reveals that the dog with the steepest angled shoulder is the racing greyhound. 
Hunting dogs are classified as requiring endurance at the gallop. As such, nature requires a certain form that can be measured. According to his measurements, dogs that must have endurance at the gallop need to have shoulder-blade angles of about 18 degrees off the vertical. He also notes that dogs in good running shape will have more space between shoulder blades than similar dogs that are not in shape, noting that some show judges consider the wider separation a fault. Brown illuminates several other characteristics that hold true to function. One is the legginess ratio and is measured as follows. With the dog on a flat surface, measure from his chest down to the surface. Then measure from the top of the shoulder blade (called the withers) to the bottom of the chest (depth of chest). Dividing the leg length by the depth of chest results in a very consistent ratio among performance dogs. With dogs built for pure speed, the leg length will be longer than the depth of chest at a ratio of about 1.3 Hunting dogs normally are about 1.2 to 1.25. 
Another interesting measurement is for "squareness." Measuring from the top of the shoulder blade to the surface gets the dogs height. Measuring from the front of the chest to the butt gives you the dogs length. They should be roughly equal, or square, but a little variation can be expected. Dogs built for all out speed will be a bit longer in the body.
One of Browns most interesting observations is on size. When a dog, or any animal, doubles in size, the diameter of the leg must increase by more than twice the amount. Larger animals, therefore, need proportionally more infrastructures to do the same task as a smaller dog. While this seems to favor smaller dogs, the exact opposite is implied. A big dog who can go the time in good form should be prime breeding stock. A percentage of his offspring will be smaller and will still have the big engine. Big dogs that proceed from small stock might not have the infrastructure required to move a big dog effectively with enough endurance. 
Brown also does not disagree with Delmar Smith on the subject of cowhocks. Smith believes that some degree of cowhock was required so that the actions of the rear legs do not interfere with that of the front legs. Brown, ever the scientist does not go quite as far as Smith. Noting the number of cowhocked dogs that routinely win in performance trials, Brown concludes that the AKC is wrong in considering the condition a conformation fault. He further writes about a herd of Thompsons Gazelles that he observed, all of which were cowhocked. 


By: Ryan Frame


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## kwas (Nov 17, 2007)

So do any breeders have a gait guarantee?


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

So the questions is ... Why do you guys think this trait gets relatively little attention. Is it a preferance thing or is it a lack of awarness in terms of what is functional confromation or how imortant gait is in overall performance? I don't really know but I am inclined to think it is a preferance thing. Just as some people really value markings, I absolutely can't stand a dog that is built poorly or is even average in terms of athleticism. Of course, at the core it's because of the effect on performance but I also just can't stand to watch it.

SRB


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

Based upon what I have seen (mostly heard), everyone agrees that gait is important, but have a very difficult time describing exactly what they mean. Most of us can spot a clunker, but after that all bets are off.

I stand behind my statement that if you got 10 dogs, maybe two clunkers and eight well gaited dogs of varing levels, asked 10 of us to rank them from 1 to 10, no two rankings would be the same. Some might even be significantly different. The even more interesting part would be when you asked folks to explain, specifically, why one dog got a higher ranking than another.

It all comes down to selection, in my humble opinion. Most normal folks just do not see enough dogs for long enough to make a truly informed decision about things like gait.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Based on the post that hehibrits put up (and if you ask me it's quite damning) its sounds to me like there is little to no emphasis on watching for good gait in the trial world let alone the show world if badly gaited dogs can and do still win championships.

If a well trained dog with enough drive to overcome its physical short comings can win FDSB events...what does that say about the whole evaluation process in terms of bettering any breed?

A little off topic, but an interesting twist if you think about it objectively.

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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Flash01 said:


> . . .I stand behind my statement that if you got 10 dogs, maybe two clunkers and eight well gaited dogs of varing levels, asked 10 of us to rank them from 1 to 10, no two rankings would be the same. Some might even be significantly different. . .


 
I realize there's more than gait involved in naming a dog a champion or RU champion, but I like to see multiple champions close up in my dogs' pedigrees. If several different judges saw enough good things to name the same dog champion or RU champion, then in my mind that dog has something special.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> So the questions is ... Why do you guys think this trait gets relatively little attention. Is it a preferance thing or is it a lack of awarness in terms of what is functional confromation or how imortant gait is in overall performance?
> 
> SRB


Because for the average weekend warrior it does not affect performance.
That guy probably has 2 or 3 dogs and they only hunt 15 days a year usually spread out across 5 weekends and a week long trip somewhere. 350 days of rest and 15 days of work is why no one talks about it.


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Based on the post that hehibrits put up (and if you ask me it's quite damning) its sounds to me like there is little to no emphasis on watching for good gait in the trial world let alone the show world if badly gaited dogs can and do still win championships.
> 
> *If a well trained dog with enough drive to overcome its physical short comings can win FDSB events...what does that say about the whole evaluation process in terms of bettering any breed?*
> 
> ...


 
It says that the evaluation process is done by people, and shockingly, its not perfect. Stuff like this tends to irritate me. In any organization (or group of people) there is going to be disagreement. Thought processes will change and different ideas will be put forth. You read the article you mentioned and look at it as if it were the gospel and everyone with a differing opinion is wrong. When you get to the highest level of evaluation (like the events you have damned), odds are you will end up with a "good enough dog" for what 99% of us here are looking for. 

This is what i meant before. You get into these discussions and some of us are talking about minute differences at the top end of the spectrum and some of us are talking about basic pass/fail analysis.

A dog with enough drive and training to overcome its physical shortcomings is pretty much the definition of a successful hunting/trialing dog. To a critical eye, no dog is perfect.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Based on the post that hehibrits put up (and if you ask me it's quite damning) its sounds to me like there is little to no emphasis on watching for good gait in the trial world let alone the show world if badly gaited dogs can and do still win championships.
> 
> If a well trained dog with enough drive to overcome its physical short comings can win FDSB events...what does that say about the whole evaluation process in terms of bettering any breed?
> 
> ...


Let's keep the big picture in mind. Trials are a really significant selection process and that's what we are talking about here when we consider the grand scheme of things. Negative judging is counter productive. We are suppose to be looking for the best overall performance which is defined through a number of traits. Remember, one of the primary purposes of trials is to identify the individuals that offer the best traits for improving the breed. No dog is perfect and the sorting out of these attributes is not so straight forward, especially in large stakes at the highest levels of competition.

Also keep in mind that the primary trait or objective is endurance. Gait is a contributor to endurance but if a dog in the judges opinion has a somewhat less ideal gait but exhibits superior endurance or out performs all of the other entries in terms of the overall judgment criteria, performance must trump and individual percieved flaw. Again, no dog is perfect if properly scrutinized.

I would add that in my observation, judges do consider gait but it is not a highly weighted consideration among experienced judges. Applications, bird manners, handlings, and endurance are primary criteria. Other criteria is used to sort out performances that are very close overall. 

SRB


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

hehibrits said:


> We are fond of saying that performance testing and field trials insure proper *functional conformation*, but this is not the case. Physical ability is only part of the test. So it is often the case that the best physical specimen might not win a trial for a variety of reasons. Perhaps his training is lacking or he did not have bird work. There could be any number of reasons as to why the most physically capable dog might not win a given trial.
> 
> ...it must also be said that the opposite opinion, that a conformation is test is also a guarantee of soundness, is even less true. Exclusively examining a dogs _*physical*_ _*structure*_, even in great detail such as is done at dog shows, is also no guarantee of proper physical abilities that a dog must possess.
> 
> Even if the standards were accurate and scientifically proven, there is a lot that is hidden from our eyes and measuring tape, from things such as weak tendons in joints, bad hips, inadequate lung capacity and the like, to a variety of physical defects such as bad lungs or weak heart, to the vast and mysterious chemical processes by which animals process oxygen, metabolize food and water into useable energy, and rid themselves of excess heat....





WestCoastHunter said:


> Based on the post that hehibrits put up (and if you ask me it's quite damning) its sounds to me like there is little to no emphasis on watching for good gait in the trial world let alone the show world if badly gaited dogs can and do still win championships.
> 
> If a well trained dog with enough drive to overcome its physical short comings can win FDSB events...*what does that say about the whole evaluation process in terms of bettering any breed?*


It says it's a good thing the dogs don't start humping as soon as the trial is over.

It says that maybe sometimes even judges might need a brush up on the objective standards that they're judging. "It's not a bird count" is a common refrain at the few trails I've attended.

It says that every dog has his day and that breeding decisions should be based on a dog that has a history of strong performance -- not just a dog that looked good on the particular day you observed it.

I didn't read the above as particularly damning to either the field trial process OR the showing process. Rather, I saw it as an argument that while neither is perfect, each serves a purpose -- and so does medical examination.

I read it as most damning to backyard breeding or breeding that hasn't been well thought out or researched. I think it says you want to evaluate 1) the dog's physical ability/"functional confirmation", 2) physical structure, AND 3) receive certain medical history/assurances before the dogs start humping.

KW


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Because for the average weekend warrior it does not affect performance.
> That guy probably has 2 or 3 dogs and they only hunt 15 days a year usually spread out across 5 weekends and a week long trip somewhere. 350 days of rest and 15 days of work is why no one talks about it.


I think it's bigger than that Scott. I think most weekend warriors and probably most backyard breeders simply don't give it as much thought as the obsessed losers on this website ...

For them, the key question is "can the dog find birds?" If the dog comes when called, has good house manners, and can produce birds for the gun, it's worthy of breeding to their neighbor's dog who does the same. "Rose colored glasses."

Am I overly cynical?

KW


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> I think it's bigger than that Scott. I think most weekend warriors and probably most backyard breeders simply don't give it as much thought as the obsessed losers on this website ...
> 
> For them, the key question is "can the dog find birds?" If the dog comes when called, has good house manners, and can produce birds for the gun, it's worthy of breeding to their neighbor's dog who does the same. "Rose colored glasses."
> 
> ...


I said the same thing.
The dog never gets pushed to a point where gait locomotion will show itself as being a negative.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Scott Berg said:


> Let's keep the big picture in mind. Trials are a really significant selection process and that's what we are talking about here when we consider the grand scheme of things. Negative judging is counter productive. We are suppose to be looking for the best overall performance which is defined through a number of traits. Remember, one of the primary purposes of trials is to identify the individuals that offer the best traits for improving the breed. No dog is perfect and the sorting out of these attributes is not so straight forward, especially in large stakes at the highest levels of competition.
> 
> Also keep in mind that the primary trait or objective is endurance. Gait is a contributor to endurance but if a dog in the judges opinion has a somewhat less ideal gait but exhibits superior endurance or out performs all of the other entries in terms of the overall judgment criteria, performance must trump and individual percieved flaw. Again, no dog is perfect if properly scrutinized.
> 
> ...


I get all of that and for the most part I agree.

But when we start throwing in what are trained characteristics to the judging it seems like you're heading down a slippery slope.

ie - Dog A runs in an NSTRA trial, has endurance, drive, and gait, that are "good enough" and has a perfect retrieve. Dog B on the other hand is physically a better dog than dog A, his gait is perfect, he has the same level of drive and endurance as dog A, but has a bad day retrieving in the same event and thereby Dog A wins. 

I don't run in trials and to be honest I don't know how these games work in judging so the aforementioned may not even be possible, but it seems to me that if Dog A wins enough his genes will likely get passed along and Dog B's will hardly touch the breeding pool if he never retrieves.

My question is whether that is really right...

I could make a similar argument about STWS and AF dogs so don't leap all over me for picking NSTRA as an example.

This is really splitting hairs I guess. 

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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Because for the average weekend warrior it does not affect performance.
> That guy probably has 2 or 3 dogs and they only hunt 15 days a year usually spread out across 5 weekends and a week long trip somewhere. 350 days of rest and 15 days of work is why no one talks about it.


I think most weekend warriors try to look at the breeding if possible but at the end of the day they're effectively closing their eyes and grabbing a pup out of the box and living with what they got. You can't see a bad gait until the dog is older and in most cases the dog isn't getting returned even if it pops up.

Weekend warriors aren't breeders and most are not judges. They do however have to live with whatever the judges and breeders deem to be "good enough."

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## Legallyblonde (Dec 6, 2010)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Not true.
> 
> I can think of some bench Pointers that see a fair amount of time in the field that get the job done and I think a fair number of versatiles out there that are shown as well. ie - I'm not sure there is even a distinction between field and show with Bracco's and Spinoni. They are what they are.
> 
> ...


I don't think there are a LOT of Abbe Lane dogs being shown, but that's only because that's not really the crowd they attract or sell to; doesn't mean they can't. 

Mine is one that has been shown some, only in UKC since he's black. My first 'show dog' too, but performance has always been first and foremost with us. He quite often gets overlooked by judges, especially those that come from the AKC world, for 1.) being black, and 2.) being 'small' (he's 24 inches and perfectly within standard.) He has a wonderful gait, which I do think translates over to the performance aspect--he can go all day in the field, and can go miles skijoring without tiring. 

Here's a good sample of him gaiting in the ring; it should form a triangle with the center of gravity in the middle; shouldn't have high action in the front or big kick back in the rear as both are wasted movement and energy. (This picture was taken by Cindy Coffman and I only have the hard copy, hence the 'proof' stamped across the picture from her posting it on my FB)


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> I said the same thing.
> The dog never gets pushed to a point where gait locomotion will show itself as being a negative.


Weekend hunters also are very unlikely to break their dogs steady to wing and shot. However, they would benefit from dogs with exceptional manners around game.

I disagree with many of the statements that are commonly made about weekend hunters and there needs in a bird dog. The average hunter benefits just as much as the serious guy from the advanced skills of a better bred dog. It's the guy who is not a great trainer that needs a dog with more innate talent. The exceptionally natural talent needs less bird exposures to become proficient and they will handle wild birds with little intervention. Will a skilled trainer make more of this type of dog? Most likely but that's not the point. 

Gait and the athleticism and stamina that come for it benefits every hunter. There is no way around it. Reduced athleticsm is to result in significantly slower pace and the dog running hotter. Both are going to impeed performance. I am not advocating "trial speed" but two dogs with equal application where one covers more ground will find the dog with better pace out birding the slower dog. And tired dogs also tend to lack focus and their application suffers.

SRB


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Legallyblonde said:


> Here's a good sample of him gaiting in the ring; it should form a triangle with the center of gravity in the middle; shouldn't have high action in the front or big kick back in the rear as both are wasted movement and energy. (This picture was taken by Cindy Coffman and I only have the hard copy, hence the 'proof' stamped across the picture from her posting it on my FB)


The gait demonstrated in the show ring is hopefully not the same gait as used when hunting. Humans better not be able to run along side of them and keeping up when hunting.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Legallyblonde said:


> I don't think there are a LOT of Abbe Lane dogs being shown, but that's only because that's not really the crowd they attract or sell to; doesn't mean they can't.
> 
> Mine is one that has been shown some, only in UKC since he's black. My first 'show dog' too, but performance has always been first and foremost with us. He quite often gets overlooked by judges, especially those that come from the AKC world, for 1.) being black, and 2.) being 'small' (he's 24 inches and perfectly within standard.) He has a wonderful gait, which I do think translates over to the performance aspect--he can go all day in the field, and can go miles skijoring without tiring.
> 
> Here's a good sample of him gaiting in the ring; it should form a triangle with the center of gravity in the middle; shouldn't have high action in the front or big kick back in the rear as both are wasted movement and energy. (This picture was taken by Cindy Coffman and I only have the hard copy, hence the 'proof' stamped across the picture from her posting it on my FB)


There is actually a field Pointer on the show circuit as well. It PO'd a bunch of the bench dog folks because the dog got shown A LOT and if you do that enough the dog will rack up enough points or whatever they collect in that world to eventually get "champion" by its name and I think that one did. 

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## Legallyblonde (Dec 6, 2010)

No the gait used in the ring is not the same as used in the field, but an effortless gait in the ring without wasted movement *should* be a good indicator of good movement at all gaits. They don't gallop racehorses out at the sales, they normally trot them out to evaluate their movement. The trot is the best gait to evaluate movement and detect lameness.


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> *I don't run in trials and to be honest I don't know how these games work* in judging so the aforementioned may not even be possible, but it seems to me that if Dog A wins enough his genes will likely get passed along and Dog B's will hardly touch the breeding pool if he never retrieves.
> 
> My question is whether that is really right...


 
Interesting.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

2ESRGR8 said:


> I said the same thing.
> The dog never gets pushed to a point where gait locomotion will show itself as being a negative.


Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't think it's the same thing.

My point is that the average weekend warrior doesn't have the level of dedication to this sport to take the time to educate himself to the nuanced differences between a "good enough" dog and a genuine "fine specimen."

I've been hunting for not quite 10 years and pretty hopelessly obsessed with birds and bird dogs for about 5. I feel like that bulb is just beginning to flicker with me (must be a CFL!). 

You're right that the "good enough" dog might not ever be pushed hard enough for the faults to have an effect on his health or performance. However, it seems to me that if you take the time to educate yourself, you should be able to watch a dog run a few times and have a pretty good idea of whether of not the dog has traits worth perpetuating.

My point is the "average hunter" probably doesn't know which nuanced traits to look for.

IMO, passing on traits which are "good enough" is a downward spiral for the breed.

Or maybe since I have the day off and the wife and kids are out of the house, I just have way too much time to think about it! 

KW


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

WestCoastHunter said:


> But when we start throwing in what are trained characteristics to the judging it seems like you're heading down a slippery slope.


Not at all.

I think most would argue that there's some genetic component to biddability and that it's a desirable characteristic worth perpetuating.

If all breeding decisions were made based on a single trial performance, I'd tend to agree with you. But anyone with half a brain is going to look at a dog's overall trial performance over the long haul before making a breeding decision.

By looking at dogs' performance/"functional conformation", physical confirmation, and overall health... I think breeders have a pretty good tool bag for improving a breed.

... they just need to take a look at all the tools in the bag and learn to use them.

KW


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

k9wernet said:


> Not at all.
> 
> I think most would argue that there's some genetic component to biddability and that it's a desirable characteristic worth perpetuating.
> 
> ...


Kevin I get it.

Like I said, I'm splitting hairs. There is no perfect system out that that I can see. Though it would be nice to see the show world take ability in field trial settings into consideration and trialers do some more judging of physical conformation than what they see as a dog runs (and maybe they do).

I don't and won't play those games (show or trial). But I won't deny that I got into Pointers because of their field trial record. The breed has a reputation. 

I just worry about the close minded views taken on both sides and what that means for any breed over the long haul.

Either that or I just like to discuss and even argue sometimes...hmmm...

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Copied this from a site called Dogs @ Suite 101. Agree/Disagree? Why? See any conflicts?

"*Dominant Traits in Dogs*

A dog with dominant characteristics present in the head area may have low-set ears, long ears, a long head, wide ear leather, dark eyes, correct bite, black nose and a short face; and in the body area, it presents as a deep chest, straight top line, straight tail, high tail set, heavy bone, compact feet, a short coat and a choppy gait. A dominant dog will generally be intelligent and he may have a more aggressive temperament.

*Canine Recessive traits*

A dog with recessive characteristics present in the head area as having a large skull, short ears, a fine skull, light eyes, bulging eyes and overshot/undershot bite; and in the body area as a having long, reaching gait, a low tail set, no feathering on tail, a kinked tail, a long coat, longer and straight legs.

These dogs usually have mild, non-aggressive temperaments and a lack of intelligence. . ."


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

I don't buy into the theory of a dog that has allot of drive it will overcome a bad gait. To a certain extent I can see the dog with an extraordinary amount of drive compensating, some, for a moderate or middle of the road type gait. But it will no way compensate for a poor gait no matter how much drive it has. The endurance factors will come into play and physics will take its course. A poorly gaited dog extends so much energy running. Its endurance suffers hugely. 
The discription I like to use is, how many 200 pound marathon runners do you see out there.
There a tons of 200 pound athletes, but there bodies are not built for long sustained running. The demands of a bird dog require long sustained running. So the dogs need to be built for that. That does NOT consist of a heavy boned 65 pound or over type heavy muscled type dog. I don't care how much drive they have. Endurance will eventually take its effects.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> The gait demonstrated in the show ring is hopefully not the same gait as used when hunting. Humans better not be able to run along side of them and keeping up when hunting.


 Scott, I totally agree. I don't think the two are even remotely related or can be compared. I do not see how a trot has much if anything to do with defining or evaluating a dogs gait at a run. The endurance part pretty much speaks for itself as far as show ring evaluations.
Again if one reads the breed conformation of a GSP you will quickly understand why so many of them lack endurance and are moderately to poorly gaited. It is what has driven the field trial shorthair people to breed for an all together different build then what the show ring people do. That breed standard does not lead to, form follows function.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> Not at all.
> 
> I think most would argue that there's some genetic component to biddability and that it's a desirable characteristic worth perpetuating.
> 
> ...


 Well put Kevin.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> So the questions is ... Why do you guys think this trait gets relatively little attention. Is it a preferance thing or is it a lack of awarness in terms of what is functional confromation or how imortant gait is in overall performance? I don't really know but I am inclined to think it is a preferance thing. Just as some people really value markings, I absolutely can't stand a dog that is built poorly or is even average in terms of athleticism. Of course, at the core it's because of the effect on performance but I also just can't stand to watch it.
> 
> SRB


 
People don't think much about it, and unless you hunt a lot, and need endurance, it is not as high on the list of requirements. The weekend warrior that hunts 12-20 days a season, with a week long trip never taxes his dog to the point that it shows up. 

I could be wrong on this though and defer to the experts. I believe strongly there is a correlation between gait and heat tolerance though.

Edit: I posted before reading the points, I agree with Grush on this two pages ago, I also agree with Berg, that and I'm paraphrasing "that a weekend warrior could also benefit from a great breeding." 

My point is, because as Scott says "they never tax a dog" it is never a thought they give, including, most likely the dog they are breeding too.

This dog is the best gaited Labrador I have seen, he also has the best heat tolerance of any Lab I have ever seen.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I get all of that and for the most part I agree.
> 
> But when we start throwing in what are trained characteristics to the judging it seems like you're heading down a slippery slope.
> 
> ...


 ....


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> People don't think much about it, and unless you hunt a lot, and need endurance, it is not as high on the list of requirements. The weekend warrior that hunts 12-20 days a season, with a week long trip never taxes his dog to the point that it shows up.
> 
> I could be wrong on this though and defer to the experts. I believe strongly there is a correlation between gait and heat tolerance though.
> 
> ...


 SHF thats exactly why I said a couple of pages ago that there are other traits that usually go hand in hand with a great gait. Great gait, great endurance, great endurance would definitly help heat resistance.
Again it all boils down to a dog that benefits from these traits will, in the end put you on more birds for a multable of various reasons, providing it is also complamented by some nose and brains.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Originally Posted by *Scott Berg*  
_So the questions is ... Why do you guys think this trait gets relatively little attention. Is it a preferance thing or is it a lack of awarness in terms of what is functional confromation or how imortant gait is in overall performance? I don't really know but I am inclined to think it is a preferance thing. Just as some people really value markings, I absolutely can't stand a dog that is built poorly or is even average in terms of athleticism. Of course, at the core it's because of the effect on performance but I also just can't stand to watch it.

SRB_

_Scott, I honestly believe it is the lack of awareness on both the breeders and the buyers. And really if they are breeders and are not aware of that, shame on them.There are a mess of those breeders out there though so buyer beware._


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

crosswind said:


> Scott, I totally agree. I don't think the two are even remotely related or can be compared. I do not see how a trot has much if anything to do with defining or evaluating a dogs gait at a run. The endurance part pretty much speaks for itself as far as show ring evaluations.
> Again if one reads the breed conformation of a GSP you will quickly understand why so many of them lack endurance and are moderately to poorly gaited. It is what has driven the field trial shorthair people to breed for an all together different build then what the show ring people do. That breed standard does not lead to, form follows function.


Scott,

It could be worse. The GSP standard is alot closer to being functional than what the bench setter people define as a the breed standard. The bench setter standard is a long way from ideal function. Actually, it's downright ridiculous. 

SRB


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> This dog is the best gaited Labrador I have seen, he also has the best heat tolerance of any Lab I have ever seen.


We have a whole lotta labs in Minnesota and about 1 in 500 look like anything like this one.

SRB


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

He's alotta dog Scott...


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

Legallyblonde said:


> I don't think there are a LOT of Abbe Lane dogs being shown, but that's only because that's not really the crowd they attract or sell to; doesn't mean they can't.
> 
> Mine is one that has been shown some, only in UKC since he's black. My first 'show dog' too, but performance has always been first and foremost with us. He quite often gets overlooked by judges, especially those that come from the AKC world, for 1.) being black, and 2.) being 'small' (he's 24 inches and perfectly within standard.) He has a wonderful gait, which I do think translates over to the performance aspect--he can go all day in the field, and can go miles skijoring without tiring.
> 
> Here's a good sample of him gaiting in the ring; it should form a triangle with the center of gravity in the middle; shouldn't have high action in the front or big kick back in the rear as both are wasted movement and energy. (This picture was taken by Cindy Coffman and I only have the hard copy, hence the 'proof' stamped across the picture from her posting it on my FB)


 I like that picture.


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## kwas (Nov 17, 2007)

Is that build consistent with his litter mates steelhead? I'm curious, very nice looking lab!


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Weekend warriors aren't breeders and most are not judges. They do however have to live with whatever the judges and breeders deem to be "good enough."

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine[/QUOTE]

I think your "good enough" idea is of base, but you are probably pretty accurate on the "live with it" part once they have bought it.
With that said all a breeder can do is try to educate people about the subject and the rest goes back to Buyer beware and do your research prior to laying down your money.
Thats why people are nuts to buy dogs out of the tent at puppy days or out of the parking lot Jays etc. It is extremely important to see those parents working birds so a person can get a good picture/example of the traits and behaviors they are thinking about buying. Offspring from a prior mating may even be a better guage or example.The buyer needs the basic knowledge of what a good gait looks like and what a bad one looks and sounds like.They get that bad that you can hear them thud/slap the ground. So like so many other things, if the weekend warrior wants to improve his odds, he needs to arm himself with some basic knowledge before he/she goes shopping.
This may offend some but from my experience, the show ring has done zero towards improving the gene pool.With that said that is based on GSP's Pointers and Setters. The Brits seem to have a better handle on it but to what extent I have not seen enough to be a real good judge of it.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

kwas said:


> Is that build consistent with his litter mates steelhead? I'm curious, very nice looking lab!


 
I wish we knew, we went that route with hopes of finding a Male like him (the way he turned out), he daddy was a FC/AFC that was smaller, bred to a Raider bitch that was smaller. 

I know he has been dominant in the two litters we've had, my 10 month old female is about a carbon copy of his build, she is yet to fully muscle up. My brothers female is also more like Jones, as is Justin McGrails Dog. 

I have contact with all the males, two of them are closer to their mother in terms of build, one is closer to his father.

We studded Jones to a bitch down state last winter, the pup they kept is the black version of him in terms of build also.

I am hoping my pup has one small growth spurt left in her, or she has the gait of her father!:lol:


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> People don't think much about it, and unless you hunt a lot, and need endurance, it is not as high on the list of requirements. The weekend warrior that hunts 12-20 days a season, with a week long trip never taxes his dog to the point that it shows up.
> 
> I could be wrong on this though and defer to the experts. I believe strongly there is a correlation between gait and heat tolerance though.
> 
> ...



You guys should invest in some dog food for that poor thing.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> So the questions is ... Why do you guys think this trait gets relatively little attention. Is it a preferance thing or is it a lack of awarness in terms of what is functional confromation or how imortant gait is in overall performance? I don't really know but I am inclined to think it is a preferance thing. Just as some people really value markings, I absolutely can't stand a dog that is built poorly or is even average in terms of athleticism. Of course, at the core it's because of the effect on performance but I also just can't stand to watch it.
> 
> SRB


I think most folks don't know and don't care that they don't know. 

Lets face it the average bird hunter has a dog that is 10 pounds over weight and see's maybe 10 hours of ground time a season. The selection criteria is, How much is it? can I get it today? Is it pretty? And does my wife like it? Even an out of shape, poorly gaited dog will outlast the typical owner on a 2 hour hunt.

I also think it is near impossible to use gait as a selection criteria for most folks unless your looking at adult dogs. You can't tell a thing from an eight week old pup, and the mother is probably out of shape from having pups and won't run anyway, and the sire in many cases is someplace else. 

On top of all that, most folks wouldn't recognize a good gait if it reared up and bit them. 

SRB: any chance you can post up some video of dogs in motion and point out good and bad points? Maybe the mods can make it a sticky. I might be able to post up a video of a dog with horrible movement, I think I have a couple.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

Lowest common denominator: you don't want your dog breathing through its mouth...which every dog will at some point. This is directly tied to endurance and gait affects endurance. I find better evaluations pushing the dogs on horseback for 2-3 hours in sharptail country than a half hour or hour stake in a trial. I when I say push I mean push, we ride em down. You can normally seperate the wheat from the chaff then.

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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

The quote I posted a couple pages ago suggested that a choppy gait is a dominant trait and a long, reaching gait is a recessive trait. Do the breeders on here agree with that assessment?

If so, how do you breed for a recessive trait without bringing all of the other "baggage" with it?

I've seen quite a few choppy gaited dogs observing different trial venues. In the woods, the choppy gait makes the dog appear more animated while it runs. I often wondered if that was intentional. However, like has been said, it is obvious that the choppy gaited dog is expending much more energy than the dog running with a fluid gait.

Lastly, does gait go hand in hand with instances of injury? I'm not talking about injuries that might be considered genetic, but traumatic injuries. I would think it does.


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm all for the breeder's efforts to enhance all natural qualities, for the betterment of gun dogs. I know that recent trends by other hunting dog communities de-emphasize natural qualities in favor of breeding for the ability to handle forced or formalized cookie cutter training regimes. I do think for the average hunter though, getting his dogs in shape and conditioned prior to the season is very important. Personally, I enjoy the gait of an English Setter which is why I own them. But, I also really enjoy watching other breeds successfully going about doing their craft as their DNA dictates too.


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## Legallyblonde (Dec 6, 2010)

This may offend some but from my experience, the show ring has done zero towards improving the gene pool.With that said that is based on GSP's Pointers and Setters. The Brits seem to have a better handle on it but to what extent I have not seen enough to be a real good judge of it.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't offend me, and I agree there is some truth in what you've said. It's not the breed standards themselves, it's the interpretation and the unfortunate awarding of extreme trends. Look at what has happened to the German Shepherd Dog in AKC shows.....the show ring has certainly done nothing to help the gene pool there. It's certainly not only the AKC; the GSD's look just as bad or even worse in the UK (The Kennel Club) and the German Sieger shows. Even if black GSP's were accepted in the AKC ring I don't know that I would even want to show there; I personally don't like the direction that GSP trends are taking--bigger and heavier boned dogs. 

However, there are some out there like myself that want to see that changed and see dogs that can succeed at both. I think UKC is trying to accomplish that as well.....UKC has a Total Dog program that has become the registry's whole philosophy. Dogs get a Total Dog award when they get a competition win in conformation and a qualifying leg in a performance event, so just as much emphasis is placed on performance as conformation. Is it perfect? No, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

hehibrits said:


> Lowest common denominator: you don't want your dog breathing through its mouth...which every dog will at some point. This is directly tied to endurance and gait affects endurance. I find better evaluations pushing the dogs on horseback for 2-3 hours in sharptail country than a half hour or hour stake in a trial. I when I say push I mean push, we ride em down. You can normally seperate the wheat from the chaff then.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 I have never seen where breathing through its mouth has anything to do with a dogs scenting ability. The dog needs to breath though its mouth to cool down. So unless you are running in temps below freezing he willalmost always have that mouth open. Poor conditioning or an out of shape dog will certainly have his mouth open and that dogs scenting ability is greatly effected but it is the poor conditioning that causes that, not the fact that he has his mouth open.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Laphroaig said:


> I'm all for the breeder's efforts to enhance all natural qualities, for the betterment of gun dogs. I know that recent trends by other hunting dog communities de-emphasize natural qualities in favor of breeding for the ability to handle forced or formalized cookie cutter training regimes. I do think for the average hunter though, getting his dogs in shape and conditioned prior to the season is very important. Personally, I enjoy the gait of an English Setter which is why I own them. But, I also really enjoy watching other breeds successfully going about doing their craft as their DNA dictates too.


 
WOW, where to start, can you elaborate about "other hunting dog communities de-emphasize natural qualities in favor of breeding for the ability to handle forced or formalized cookie cutter training regimes" ? 

That statement has me confused, I bet if you asked Crosswind's or Scott Berg, folks who have trained thousands of dogs, I wonder what they would say about it?

Can you also give further information to what you call "the gait of an English Setter?" Are you saying Setters have a "type" gait?


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

kek25 said:


> The quote I posted a couple pages ago suggested that a choppy gait is a dominant trait and a long, reaching gait is a recessive trait. Do the breeders on here agree with that assessment?
> Keith in my mind when it comes to gait I don't have the ability to know whether the trait is dominant or recessive. When I am considering a pairing. I set my priorites as to what I think the 3 or 4 most important triats/qualities I want or need are. I breed with those 3 or 4 and the other less important things are a plus if they are good stong qualities but if they turn out not to be I can live with it because they are further down the list of wants anyway.
> So if gait was on my list of priorities the only thing you as the breeder really have control of (because you have zero proof of it being dominant or recessive) is breeding to a well gaited dog and hope for the best. But you need to find a well gaited dog that shows great qualities for the other 3 or 4 priorites you are looking for also. Not just a well gaited dog.
> 
> ...


 I think it is just the opposite. The dog that is built right will be less prone to injury. The only thing I could think of that may change that would be if he happens to be one of those wreckless type animals that is wide open all the time and thinks it can go through stuff instead of around it. Thats catches up whith them after time. It will eventually hit something that is gonna cause damage.
Thats my 2 cents worth, my opinion only FWIW.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

crosswind said:


> of those wreckless type animals that is wide open all the time and thinks it can go through stuff instead of around it. Thats catches up whith them after time. It will eventually hit something that is gonna cause damage.
> Thats my 2 cents worth, my opinion only FWIW.


You mean like this?











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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

Steelheadfred said:


> WOW, where to start, can you elaborate about "other hunting dog communities de-emphasize natural qualities in favor of breeding for the ability to handle forced or formalized cookie cutter training regimes" ?
> 
> That statement has me confused, I bet if you asked Crosswind's or Scott Berg, folks who have trained thousands of dogs, I wonder what they would say about it?
> 
> Can you also give further information to what you call "the gait of an English Setter?" Are you saying Setters have a "type" gait?




I think I'll just go back to reading posts instead of posting. Why is it that if I try to give my opinions on a subject and carefully to express my thoughts while at the same time go out of my way NOT TO INCITE a pissing match the forum gatekeepers take exception to it, seek to get a fight started and misintrepret the damned post?

Hell, I thought I was being complimentary to all breeds. Sorry to have trespassed on your forum. I'll read more and post less.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Crosswind, thanks for taking the time to explain all this (and Kevin for bringing it up). I find it really interesting.

Scott, you saw Ivy at our Fun Trial last spring. You commented on how nice she moves. 









She is very squarely built and can run all day. She is very light on her feet and it just looks effortless when she's moving.

I think a lot of people would benefit from spending some time at Gladwin or Highland and any of the Fun Trials and get a chance to see a lot of dogs at one time and compare how they move....really an eye opener.











Laphroaig said:


> *...and misintrepret the damned post?*
> 
> Hell, I thought I was being complimentary to all breeds. Sorry to have trespassed on your forum. I'll read more and post less.


Maybe just take a deep breath and explain what you meant? 
I'm a little confused by what you said as well...???


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

crosswind said:


> I think it is just the opposite. The dog that is built right will be less prone to injury. The only thing I could think of that may change that would be if he happens to be one of those wreckless type animals that is wide open all the time and thinks it can go through stuff instead of around it. Thats catches up whith them after time. It will eventually hit something that is gonna cause damage.
> Thats my 2 cents worth, my opinion only FWIW.


Thanks, Scott. That passage that I had quoted had me confused. It lumped a lot of things that I consider good qualities as dominant traits then added choppy gait (which I don't consider a good trait) as a dominant trait. Then it listed a lot of things that I don't consider good qualities as recessive traits, and indicated a long reaching gait (which I consider a good trait) as a recessive trait. Didn't make sense to me.

Your opinion on shorter coupled dogs in the woods makes sense. I've pretty much owned dogs with longer reaching gaits, and they seem to be able to bob and weave through the cover pretty well. I think it has a lot to do with proportioning as you mentioned, and coordination that comes along with that.

I phrased my question regarding injuries wrong. I meant to ask whether dogs with good gaits are injured less. Thanks for the input.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Scott Berg said:


> We have a whole lotta labs in Minnesota and about 1 in 500 look like anything like this one.
> 
> SRB


Good looking Lab! Field trial labs are built just that way.
Though a photo doesnot do a working dog much justice. Cannot see gait or endurance from a still shot. I have know idea about his resilence to heat. His genetic background if he from FC/AFC parents would suggest that they were treated Like and example here _Top-fuel dragsters_ From A to B and back to A as fast as straight as they they go. And the phrase would to the non-slip folks "in Style and with Momentum"
I have have always thought of the non-slip retrievers as the dragster and the upland dog as a road racer, Both are good, yet different.

Though I do see 2 things in the photo that should be considered.
First of maybe these upland Labs should have the tails docked at birth like spaniels so the tail does not take such a beating in the covers and he has a nice long neck, plenty of room for electronics.


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

BradU20

The title is gait and endurance. The discussion included breeding for gait as an additional component in breeding pairings.

My first sentence was intended to express my encouragement for those who strive to improve (natural qualities) gait as they best see fit.

My second sentence is to point out the contrast I have first hand experience observing in other, non pointing dog communities for other purposes.

My third sentence is to point out my opinion that no matter how well or poorly gaited (define how you want) the average hunter's dog is, proper conditioning is a must. Further, a well conditioned poorly gaited dog may suffice over a poorly conditioned exceptionally gaited dog for the weekend non breeding hunter.

My fourth sentence expresses my personal preferences.

My fifth sentence expresses that even though I prefer the gait of English Setters, I have respect for other breeds gaits, styles etc... As they too were bred (DNA REFERENCE) for the natural qualities that make them unique and desirable to those who prefer each respective breed.

Does that clear it up?





Laphroaig said:


> I'm all for the breeder's efforts to enhance all natural qualities, for the betterment of gun dogs. I know that recent trends by other hunting dog communities de-emphasize natural qualities in favor of breeding for the ability to handle forced or formalized cookie cutter training regimes. I do think for the average hunter though, getting his dogs in shape and conditioned prior to the season is very important. Personally, I enjoy the gait of an English Setter which is why I own them. But, I also really enjoy watching other breeds successfully going about doing their craft as their DNA dictates too.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

BradU20 said:


> Crosswind, thanks for taking the time to explain all this (and Kevin for bringing it up). I find it really interesting.
> I think even the average bird dog person/ weekend hunter, or whatever, can benefit greatly from realizing how important gait can be to a bird dog.
> 
> I guess I may be more critical about the whole gait issue then most. Partly because I do most of my business in a breed that suffers terribly from poor gaits (GSP's) coupled with the fact that I run in a format that my GSP's have to run heads up with the pointers and setters. It drives me be very selective and picky as to what I breed to, especially if I am outcrossing. I have never outcrossed a breeding without seeing that male on the ground running.Over the years I watched many a GSPs my program included progress in NSTRA simple by putting more run and a better gait in there program. It used to be the GSP's rarely won a national event, they were just quit simple outrun for the biggest part. Nowadays it is not uncommon at all to see them running with or past the other breeds and winning their share of national titles.
> ...


 I agree. I didn't comment on Laphroaig's thread because I just didnt get his meaning.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

gundogguy said:


> Good looking Lab! Field trial labs are built just that way.


Not all of them in my opinion, as with most in this thread, heart, desire, and brains will make up for some conformation faults. How many male field bred labs have you seen built like that dog?



> Though a photo doesnot do a working dog much justice.


No it does not.



> Cannot see gait or endurance from a still shot. I have know idea about his resilence to heat.


No you cannot; I promise you, he has some very high level of heat resilence and stammina to burn. I believe it the photo does show very good conformation, a very muscled dog, his gait is fantastic which leads to his high heat tolerance, at least that could be something I am learning.



> His genetic background if he from FC/AFC parents would suggest that they were treated Like and example here _Top-fuel dragsters_ From A to B and back to A as fast as straight as they they go. And the phrase would to the non-slip folks "in Style and with Momentum"
> I have have always thought of the non-slip retrievers as the dragster and the upland dog as a road racer, Both are good, yet different.


The dog in the photo is a first class upland bird dog. With extensive retrieves on wild birds in three states and experience on Ruffs, WC (if you count them), Roosters, Wild Quail, Sharps, and Chickens, not counting a good number of ducks.



> Though I do see 2 things in the photo that should be considered.
> First of maybe these upland Labs should have the tails docked at birth like spaniels so the tail does not take such a beating in the covers and he has a nice long neck, plenty of room for electronics.


Tails: The boy has a huge motor, is very animated much like a spaniel, is fast and fearless, I would wager to mention that if he did not spend 70 days a season in the grouse thickets, and was simply a field dog, the tail would not be as happy as it is with a variety of Pointers and Setters who spend time in the woods also. 

So far as a two time stud dog, he seems to have passed his superior conformation onto his pups. Only time will tell if they can cut on the grouse of the upper great lakes.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Laphroaig said:


> I know that recent trends by other hunting dog communities de-emphasize natural qualities in favor of breeding for the ability to handle forced or formalized cookie cutter training regimes.





Laphroaig said:


> My second sentence is to point out the contrast I have first hand experience observing in other, non pointing dog communities for other purposes.


I think it was this idea that raised some hackles.

I'm not sure which hunting dog communities you're referring to, but I'm sure you can understand where some folks might be upset if you're alleging that their dogs are merely trained to perform duties which should be instinctual to the breed. Further, I think you'd need to have a pretty intimate knowledge of the breed, the program, and the specific animals to make that determination. To call a breeding program "cookie cutter" leaves little doubt that you think little of that program.

As I pointed out to my good friend WestCoastHunter, I personally regard biddibility as a highly desirable characteristic in ANY dog. It doesn't top the list in terms of desired traits, but it's right up there.

I don't want to discourage you from posting, but hopefully this helps you see how your comments came across.

BTW, SHF has non-pointing dogs. Duck dogs, really. From the pictures I've seen he's got some pretty damn good cookie cutters working for him in that program! 

KW


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Laphroaig said:


> BradU20
> 
> The title is gait and endurance. The discussion included breeding for gait as an additional component in breeding pairings.
> 
> ...


 Yep thanks for the input. I think this is a thread that many can benefit from, yet is hardly ever dicussed. 
Hey it beats talking about shotguns :lol:


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

*Laphroaig*

My fifth sentence expresses that even though I prefer the gait of English Setters, I have respect for other breeds gaits, styles etc... As they too were bred (DNA REFERENCE) for the natural qualities that make them unique and desirable to those who prefer each respective breed.

I don't think that any breed defines a certain type/kind of gait as far as birds dogs anyway. No Bassets are not bird dogs. If you mean in general the bigger percentage of setter and pointers having above average gaits as compared to the other breeds I will buy that.


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

crosswind said:


> *Laphroaig*
> 
> My fifth sentence expresses that even though I prefer the gait of English Setters, I have respect for other breeds gaits, styles etc... As they too were bred (DNA REFERENCE) for the natural qualities that make them unique and desirable to those who prefer each respective breed.
> 
> I don't think that any breed defines a certain type/kind of gait as far as birds dogs anyway. No Bassets are not bird dogs. If you mean in general the bigger percentage of setter and pointers having above average gaits as compared to the other breeds I will buy that.



Nope, I didn't mean that. I wasn't trying to imply pointers/setters have above average (or below average) gaits comparatively. I really don't know how to say it any more clearly than I did, but I'll try.

Here goes: I love the graceful gait of the English Setter and choose them as my personal gun dog of choice. When hunting with other breeds that have their own (somewhat different than English Setters) gait; I enjoy them respectfully for their own attributes; yet my preferences are E Setters.

Maybe gait means one thing to me and something different to you. However, I think we can agree that the breeds vary among themselves relative to their gaits, can't we? I feel like I am stating the obvious; if that offends then I'm sorry


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> Not all of them in my opinion, as with most in this thread, heart, desire, and brains will make up for some conformation faults. How many male field bred labs have you seen built like that dog?
> 
> 
> No it does not.
> ...




*How many male field bred labs have you seen built like that dog?* Actually quite a few over the years dogs and bitches long legs and narrow hips and shoulders both colors black and yellow. Lighter in bone and weight than the backyard breed dogs. Thus more speed and athelticism.
[/COLOR] 
 This where you lost me: 
Tails The boy has a huge motor, is very animated much like a spaniel, is fast and fearless, I would wager to mention that if he did not spend 70 days a season in the grouse thickets, and was simply a field dog, the tail would not be as happy as it is with a variety of Pointers and Setters who spend time in the woods also.
So far as a two time stud dog, he seems to have passed his superior conformation onto his pups. Only time will tell if they can cut on the grouse of the upper great lakes.
__________________


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Great thread. I hope it keeps going forward.

My question to some of the experts: What are your opinions on the ability of "improving" a dog's gate... 

Clearly you're not going to be able to change the dogs skeletal system... but through resistance based conditioning, have you ever been able to achieve a better gate through exercise?


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

FieldWalker said:


> Great thread. I hope it keeps going forward.
> 
> My question to some of the experts: What are your opinions on the ability of "improving" a dog's gate...
> 
> Clearly you're not going to be able to change the dogs skeletal system... but through resistance based conditioning, have you ever been able to achieve a better gate through exercise?


 
The only way is to be more selective at breeding time. And that means being more selective during the development of dogs in the first place.
Train for all contingency's. If you donot ask for precision you not get it. 

Years ago knew a lady that showed dogs her dogs bite was crooked she got braces for the dog, changed his bite so he would win in the ring, Do you think it changed his genitics for crooked teeth? Do you think that the braces help his offspring in having straight teeth?
Movement and gait are passed down generation to generation.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

*The Normal Gaits of the Dog*

The gaits of the dog are commonly used patterns of locomotion that can be divided into two main groups: symmetric and asymmetric. With symmetric gaits such as the walk, trot, and pace, the movement of the limbs on one side of the dog's body repeats the motion of the limbs on the opposite side with the intervals between foot falls being nearly evenly spaced. With asymmetric gaits such as the gallop, the limb movements of one side do not repeat those of the other and the intervals between foot falls are unevenly spaced. When considering gaits, one full cycle is referred to as a stride. 

This comes from the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary School web site. If you accept this explanation of gait, then it would seem that the gaits of a Pointer or a Setter or a GSP and on and on would all be the same. 

It would seem that the statement relative to the gait of a English Setter might have referred to their way of going instead of their gait. Possibly something more along the lines of flowing as opposed to the raw atheletic movement of an English Pointer. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Efficient movement by definition requires less energy than inefficient movement. So to me an efficient gait or movement is something to be sought after. It's hard for me to imagine a dog with poor structure having efficient movement. I haven't bred enough dogs or read anything to confirm that efficient gaits are inherited but certainly bone and muscle structure are inherited My experience is that dogs that have significant up and down movement tire more quickly and get hot faster than dogs that move with a relatively flat back. I do look at lots of dogs and one of the traits I've always noted has been movement. mac


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## kwas (Nov 17, 2007)

so it would seem that x-rays and guarentee before age 3 that came back that were good might not mean to much. seems bad gait would take toll on joints anyways.. dont know just asking...


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Thanks to all those in this thread, great info, big thanks to Berg, Crosswinds, Mac for the info.

I.d like to learn more in evaluation of gait, conformation, weight, neck length.

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## 88luneke (Jan 13, 2009)

I know that high performance athletic facilities can do gait analysis on someone running. They note the main muscles used and change their form so they have better/more efficient running form and are utilizing the proper muscles etc. Basically what a lot of athletes go through in preparation for the NFL combines. 

Could someone do this for a dog?

This thread has been a great read, thank you all for the info!


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

88luneke said:


> I know that high performance athletic facilities can do gait analysis on someone running. They note the main muscles used and change their form so they have better/more efficient running form and are utilizing the proper muscles etc. Basically what a lot of athletes go through in preparation for the NFL combines.
> 
> Could someone do this for a dog?
> 
> This thread has been a great read, thank you all for the info!


There's shoe store in East Lansing where they put you on a treadmill with some stationary cameras pointed at your legs and feet. As you run, they're recording your foot placement, leg movement, pronation, etc. Then they pull it up on a computer screen and because the cameras are fixed distances from the track, they can take some pretty good measurements, overlay images to get averages and trends, that sort of thing.

The only way I can think of to measure gait to that degree would be with a similar setup -- dog on a treadmill, stationary cameras, and the right software. Though Scott's method of driving an ORV alongside a running dog is considerably lower-tech, I'd wager his outcomes are about the same.

KW


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> There's shoe store in East Lansing where they put you on a treadmill with some stationary cameras pointed at your legs and feet. As you run, they're recording your foot placement, leg movement, pronation, etc. Then they pull it up on a computer screen and because the cameras are fixed distances from the track, they can take some pretty good measurements, overlay images to get averages and trends, that sort of thing.
> 
> The only way I can think of to measure gait to that degree would be with a similar setup -- dog on a treadmill, stationary cameras, and the right software. Though Scott's method of driving an ORV alongside a running dog is considerably lower-tech, I'd wager his outcomes are about the same.
> 
> KW


Flat fresh snow dog running a straight line.

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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> Flat fresh snow dog running a straight line.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


How does that work exactly? I generally assume the opposite with snow as it makes the going harder and causes people and dogs to walk and run in ways they otherwise normally do not.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> How does that work exactly? I generally assume the opposite with snow as it makes the going harder and causes people and dogs to walk and run in ways they otherwise normally do not.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Think inch not foot of snow.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

I don't think we can measure this one guys/gals. As Crosswind pointed out earlier, the ideal gait is dependent on the type of cover and terrain. The grouse woods requires the ability to change directions sharply where a dog on the open prairie can utilize a longer stride.

I can't remember who but a politician when asked to define porn responded something to the effect that he did not know how to define it eaxactly but he knew it when he saw it. I think the same is true of observing an efficient gait although. The difference is that understanding what is an effective gait is acquired over time by observing a large number of dogs in a variety of environments. 

Exposure to a lot of different trial games helped me get started in terms of awareness. Gait is a common topic of conversation when you are hanging around with trial people. However, understanding gait is one of those things about dogs that is as much art as it is science. Understanding it is a product of many observations over time. 

SRB


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

FieldWalker said:


> Great thread. I hope it keeps going forward.
> 
> My question to some of the experts: What are your opinions on the ability of "improving" a dog's gate...
> 
> Clearly you're not going to be able to change the dogs skeletal system... but through resistance based conditioning, have you ever been able to achieve a better gate through exercise?


You are right you can't change his skeletal structure. But you can change the gait in a dog one. Cut the weight off of them. Thats the only time I have ever seen a dogs gait change, basically what you are really only doing is shaving the extra pounds off of it to let its natural gait come out. But it is surprising how much an over weight dogs gait is effected from the extra pounds.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> How does that work exactly? I generally assume the opposite with snow as it makes the going harder and causes people and dogs to walk and run in ways they otherwise normally do not.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


If you can find an inch of fresh snow, and get your dog to run a straight line at a good speed you can get an idea of it's conformation and running efficiency by looking at foot placement off the a "center line." Go out and find a fresh Yote or Fox track and see the foot placement.

I am not educated enough to be able to explain how "gait" for this discussion would play a role.

I also know you can watch a dog swim and get an idea of this also, especially if you "water road" your dogs, the front feet should retun up high and to the center under the chin, this is the most efficient swimming motion. 

If you want to do some good reading, pick up a copy of "The Labrador Shooting Dog" by Mike Gould on Amazon. He covers labrador conformation and Pointer conformation extensively as he was a die hard Wehle student.



> I don't think we can measure this one guys/gals. As Crosswind pointed out earlier, the ideal gait is dependent on the type of cover and terrain. The grouse woods requires the ability to change directions sharply where a dog on the open prairie can utilize a longer stride.
> 
> I can't remember who but a politician when asked to define porn responded something to the effect that he did not know how to define it eaxactly but he knew it when he saw it. I think the same is true of observing an efficient gait although. The difference is that understanding what is an effective gait is acquired over time by observing a large number of dogs in a variety of environments.
> 
> ...


Scott,

As a rank virgin when it comes to evaluating gait, can you suggest some "beginning" places to start? 

I assume there is a point of deminishing returns as it ties into conformation, weight, coupling, leg length, neck length?

As a rank virgin in my evaluation, it seems to me that of the pack of 20 or so dogs that I get to hunt over the most, mainly Labs, Setters, Cockers, a few dam german dogs, that dogs with the best conformation, the best "top lines" and dogs that fall pretty close to a certain weight seem to have the best stamina, seem to lack nick nack injuries over the course of a long hunting career. Of course the wild card is heart and desire in this evaluation.

I find it interesting though that the picture of the Male Lab I posted earlier, and Mac's male Reed, who I would say are the two best "gaited" dogs to my uneducated eye, seem to have three things in common. Weight 50lbs, long strong necks, and really nice top lines.


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## Legallyblonde (Dec 6, 2010)

Scott Berg said:


> I can't remember who but a politician when asked to define porn responded something to the effect that he did not know how to define it eaxactly but he knew it when he saw it. I think the same is true of observing an efficient gait although.
> 
> 
> SRB


Not a politician but Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, concurring opinion in _Jacobellis v. Ohio_


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## Legallyblonde (Dec 6, 2010)

Too much or too little angulation on the front and rear assemblies on dogs completely affects movement and gait. You can tell part of the picture through the dog's angulation while it's standing still, especially in a stack, as you see the way the dog's put together. You get the complete picture when the dog's in motion.

Here's a good overview on gait:

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/saortho/chapter_91/91mast.htm

Structure article particular to gun dogs:

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/...6005c62c4?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,angulation


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## Legallyblonde (Dec 6, 2010)

More on angulation:
http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/...6005c630d?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,angulation


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## elysian (Oct 20, 2011)

I just wanted to thank all involved in this thread. Its been a great read thus far. :woohoo1:

A question I'm wondering is assessing a dog based on age. For instance, I know puppies are constantly checked and have seen images of older dogs. But say during that interim period is getting a proper assessment between those two points, say 9 months to 2 years, less informative because the dog is going through varied growth spurts? For instance my dog is about 14 months old right now and just plain looks leggy like a gangly teenager.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> *The Normal Gaits of the Dog*
> 
> The gaits of the dog are commonly used patterns of locomotion that can be divided into two main groups: symmetric and asymmetric. With symmetric gaits such as the walk, trot, and pace, the movement of the limbs on one side of the dog's body repeats the motion of the limbs on the opposite side with the intervals between foot falls being nearly evenly spaced. With asymmetric gaits such as the gallop, the limb movements of one side do not repeat those of the other and the intervals between foot falls are unevenly spaced. When considering gaits, one full cycle is referred to as a stride.
> 
> ...


 The biggest contributer to a bad gait is usually size. Great gaits never have and never will come in heavy boned, heavy muscled dogs. The leaner muscled, finer boned the dog is, the more likely it is to be well gaited. Things that complament the well gaited dog even more will be things like a nice tight foot smaller foot and pad, the right amount of leg in proportion to the body. Front feet that are not toed outboard.The dog naturally stands up more on its toes then it does on the back parts of its foot. These complament a good gait but they are not total deal breakers either. 
The simplest, most noticeable feature to take into consideration both buying or breeding is size. When a dog starts approching that 60 lb size and weight it is stacking the odds against its favor of ever being well gaited.There are some out there but they are really rare.
Being in the GSP business and running with pointers and setters there is not a dog in my kennels that is over 55 lbs. I just don't want to play against the odds. Those bigger dogs were weeded out years ago.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

OK, I'll ask the following crazy question.

Given that we're talking about upland dogs that need to be able to cover ground and run all day...how does this apply to the versatile dog?

It seems to me that a dog that might be expected to swim as a part of its job description should have more paddle like feet than cat feet. It also seems reasonable that they may need to be larger depending what kinds of game they are being sent after (ie- grouse one day, boar on another, ducks on still another). I know we're all not hunting roebuck here but the Germans do with their DK's and I can see an argument for a heavier built dog in that scenerio.

Is a person wanting a dog that can do those jobs too forever stuck with poor gait and endurance?

I have no opinion one way or another. I'm just throwing it out there for discussion since it seems like we're talking about dogs bred for a very specific purpose (upland bird hunting) and not the generalists.


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## aimus1 (Feb 28, 2011)

SB makes a good point as to certain and different ways or manners of moving on foot that would best suit certain applications and cover/terrain. Could a better understanding be gained through knowledge of the horse world and all of the different types of gait employed for different applications such as track racing vs. barrel racing and specimens whose physical structure and manners of moving on foot would better suit each application? This has been a good thread and will definately have me paying more attention to the different dogs I hunt over. Thanks to all who've contributed.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> OK, I'll ask the following crazy question.
> 
> Given that we're talking about upland dogs that need to be able to cover ground and run all day...how does this apply to the versatile dog?
> 
> ...


...


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

elysian said:


> I just wanted to thank all involved in this thread. Its been a great read thus far. :woohoo1:
> 
> A question I'm wondering is assessing a dog based on age. For instance, I know puppies are constantly checked and have seen images of older dogs. But say during that interim period is getting a proper assessment between those two points, say 9 months to 2 years, less informative because the dog is going through varied growth spurts? For instance my dog is about 14 months old right now and just plain looks leggy like a gangly teenager.


 That window will vary from dog to dog so it is hard to say yes at 14 months yours is what it is. Myself and I am stating only opinion here, at 12 to 18 months I am thinking it a done deal and they have pretty much gaited the way they are gonna be for life. Unless they have some kind of an injury or something like that, those things can destroy a gait. ACL injuries destroy gaits


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

crosswind said:


> ...


Fair enough.

Would you say a versatile dog is a flawed concept then?

(I'm not trying to pick a fight here, you breed a very specific type of shorthair so I'm just curious what your opinion is on that)

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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> If you can find an inch of fresh snow, and get your dog to run a straight line at a good speed you can get an idea of it's conformation and running efficiency by looking at foot placement off the a "center line." Go out and find a fresh Yote or Fox track and see the foot placement.
> 
> I am not educated enough to be able to explain how "gait" for this discussion would play a role.
> 
> ...


 ...


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

I think that if you're going to hunt boar, you'd gladly sacrifice a little gate so the dog doesn't get killed. 

P.S., I would be curious what bear dog owners would have to say about this discussion. For every 50lb "running walker" I have seen I can certainly think of 65lb+ Plott or Tick. 

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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Would you say a versatile dog is a flawed concept then?
> 
> ...


 No, I don't think it is a flawed concept. I personally have no use for it. But I could see where some may. Especially the water fowl stuff. Now the fur, that I think it absolutely counter productive towards any kind of bird hunting. To me that leads to jumping porkies, skunks,***** etc. and does nothing but derail your bird hunting.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

FieldWalker said:


> I think that if you're going to hunt boar, you'd gladly sacrifice a little gate so the dog doesn't get killed.
> 
> P.S., I would be curious what bear dog owners would have to say about this discussion. For every 50lb "running walker" I have seen I can certainly think of 65lb+ Plott or Tick.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


That's where my mind was wandering. But then I got to thinking of versatile hunting dogs and depending on job duties they might need to be bigger.

Point being, it seems like we're talking about an ideal here, but at the end of the day it's the old horses for courses argument.

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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> Here's one of mine at the beginning and end of a short poultry session today with a series of 3 birds (I edited-out the the boring pointing part in the middle). I shot this with my still camera so it's low-res and jerky but I think you can get the general idea.
> My guy is a longer coupled dog who has excellent stamina and raw speed, and can really cover ground but is a little less agile around corners than my shorter coupled dogs who are overall a bit slower, but give the appearance of speed and can turn on a dime. I like them all in both the woods and in the open.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_a5Qmkcf0r4


I really like that dog and have from day one. I don't think I'll stop saying that.

But your dog Lady has really won me over.

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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I really like that dog and have from day one. I don't think I'll stop saying that.
> 
> But your dog Lady has really won me over.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Thanks. At 38 lbs., Lady is as much as a finesse runner as her father is a power runner--very light on her feet producing kind of a floating effect, much like the tinier setters out there


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Scott Berg said:


> Keith,
> 
> No doubt the heavy grass detracts from assessing his gait but I like what I see in this dogs gait. He has reach but still maintains godd agility or what I refer to as being fleet footed. This is a dog I would expect to be good both in the woods and in the open. Very nice!
> 
> SRB


 
Fleet footed is a great term for such dogs, Scott. I was concerned that as a 60 lb., larger framed dog he would have more of a deliberate, loping gait. But you're absolutely right, he's able to cut through the woods with the agility of a much smaller dog. In the open fields, like up at Highland, his long reaching stride really becomes evident.

This is a credit to breeding programs like yours. When I elicited Pete's help to pick the pup, Pete said take the biggest one. Those are the ones that Pete likes. I expressed a concern for the dog's ability to efficiently move through the woods and he told me not to worry about it; that the dog will be able to get through the woods just fine. He said that's what we breed them for.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

kek25 said:


> The dog is somewhat hindered by the tall bent grass, small field, and 80 degree heat in this video, but I call this long, reaching gait (the couple times he's able to reach full stride). Right or wrong? Trying to learn like the rest. Thanks.
> 
> Remember that little problem, now corrected, at the end of the video Crosswind? :lol:
> 
> ...


How old is this dog Keith?


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

kek25 said:


> *And no e-collar to boot gundogguy. :lol:*
> 
> SANY0014 - YouTube


 
I donot know is that a question or statement?

Nice dog looks just like my Dusty out of Bob Leet's Sleepy
Dusty served me well for 11yrs guiding hunts and hunting. He had quite a rep in the early days of Rustic Ridge


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

2ESRGR8 said:


> How old is this dog Keith?


He's about 6 years old now, Scott.

Gundogguy- It was just a comment. I take from some of your posts you feel some folks don't necessarily use the e-collar as a training tool correctly. Dusty was a nice looking setter. The setter in the video is a son of Grouse Ridge Reroy.


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