# Some training pics



## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Or more accurately some Independence Day training pictures.
Utilizing the knowledge and experience of one my RGS chapters senior members I snuck over to his training grounds today for some tips on steadying my young Pointer.
Some whoa table work, whoa ground work, and then on to the barrel w/ distraction.
Kater took to it well and was very cooperative.

*Kater standing tall*









*A tethered quail for distraction*









*Legendary grouse dog trainer Roger Moore*









*The flush*








Great weather, good progress.
A very nice start to the holiday.
Thanks for the time and the tips Roger.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

2ESRGR8 said:


> *Legendary grouse dog trainer Roger Moore*


I think the term is *Notorious. :evil:*


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

Nice pictures Scott. Katers is looking good.


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## WeimsRus (Oct 30, 2007)

Am curious as to the purpose of the dog on the barrel chained to a post. Is this to keep the dog from moving when the bird flushes? No offense ment, but looks like a recipe for disaster with young dogs the way this set up is. Just my opinion and it looks like precautions have been taken to prevent an accidental slip off that chemical barrel, but a young dog might lunge when the bird is flushed and possible neck and/or trachea injury could result. With a set up such as this I would recommend useing a harness not a collar, this way the dog is not subject to these possible injurys. Nice pictures and the dog looks like it is going to be pretty steady on point and flush. Have never seen this technique and am really intrested in the purpose, dispite my apprensions about the set up.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

WeimsRus said:


> Am curious as to the purpose of the dog on the barrel chained to a post. Is this to keep the dog from moving when the bird flushes? No offense ment, but looks like a recipe for disaster with young dogs the way this set up is. Just my opinion and it looks like precautions have been taken to prevent an accidental slip off that chemical barrel, but a young dog might lunge when the bird is flushed and possible neck and/or trachea injury could result. With a set up such as this I would recommend useing a harness not a collar, this way the dog is not subject to these possible injurys. Nice pictures and the dog looks like it is going to be pretty steady on point and flush. Have never seen this technique and am really intrested in the purpose, dispite my apprensions about the set up.


 That's the purpose of the barrel for the dog to fall off. It's a self correction, the dog will, let say, put itself in an uncomfortable position if it moves at all thus learning not to move its feet when whoa'ed. The chain is set so the dog can touch the ground lightly with its back feet.


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## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

Atta girl Katers! Great pictures Scott.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

She's looking good Scott!


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## Dave Nesbitt (Apr 13, 2008)

WeimsRus said:


> Am curious as to the purpose of the dog on the barrel chained to a post. Is this to keep the dog from moving when the bird flushes?


 You find this method in the book "Speed Train Your Own Bird Dog " by Larry Mueller. The dogs learns quickly not to move.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

hehibrits said:


> I think the term is *Notorious. :evil:*


 :yikes: You gonna pay for that one Mister. :lol:


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

So what happens when you go to the ground an do the same thing? Will the correction be the same, if it doesnt whoa? Or how will the dog be ....put in an uncomfortable situtation........to learn to stand still...on the ground? Why are you using birds, with the whoa work...what do you do when the dog says "screw the words of dad, I am gonna get that bird thats tethered?" What will that correction be? The dog looks nice, was curious on your thought process, or your game plan? Thanks Scott, Jonesy


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## J-Lee (Jul 11, 2000)

Kate is such a beautiful girl, it looks like you got the real deal there. Roger is a top notch trainer, with a soft hand. My wirehair loved him.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

That sure looks like animal cruelty to me! Tying up a quail just to tease a dog! She really looks like a winner good luck this fall.


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## redvdog (Jul 24, 2005)

2ESRGR8 said:


> That's the purpose of the barrel for the dog to fall off. It's a self correction, the dog will, let say, put itself in an uncomfortable position if it moves at all thus learning not to move its feet when whoa'ed. The chain is set so the dog can touch the ground lightly with its back feet.


 
Uncomfortable? As in hang itself? No way that chain length is going to allow a dog to reach the ground.
You people post stuff like this and then wonder why the ARA are always "after your sport". Becomes more and more clear daily!


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

> Uncomfortable? As in hang itself? No way that chain length is going to allow a dog to reach the ground.
> You people post stuff like this and then wonder why the ARA are always "after your sport". Becomes more and more clear daily!


When done correctly the dog is NEVER EVER left unattended. IF the dog falls or attempts to jump from the barrel it is placed back on the barrel NOT left to hang! If you don't know the training technique and have never used it please refrain from your ignorant comments! I know Scott and he would never allow any cruel treatment be done to his dogs, nor would I for that matter. Maybe get a grip and ask how it's done before criticizing out of ignorance!


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

midwestfisherman said:


> When done correctly the dog is NEVER EVER left unattended. IF the dog falls or attempts to jump from the barrel it is placed back on the barrel NOT left to hang! If you don't know the training technique and have never used it please refrain from your ignorant comments! I know Scott and he would never allow any cruel treatment be done to his dogs, nor would I for that matter. Maybe get a grip and ask how it's done before criticizing out of ignorance!


I agree, I believe this is a widely used setup. In this case, the dog can easily reach the ground with her hind legs and with two handlers feet away, it should be 110% safe for the dog.


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## M1Tanker (Mar 3, 2008)

Nice pics Scott! Looks like Katers is well on the way.

Pay no mind to the comments...I use a similar set up myself. After you see a few dogs bend some posts while dong whoa post work, one would understand why you need a set up like this. There is nothing cruel with what you are doing as long as the dog is conditioned to being on the barrel and knows how to stand still on it.

With normal barrel work, at some point and time you have a dog on a barrel with a leash and the dog moves off the barrel...what happens? You bring the dog back on the barrel via the leash. The neck is the strongest part of a dog's body and you aren't going to hurt them.

The good part about that set up is that when you transition to the ground the dog remembers to stand still.

You can take it out of em but you can't put it in them.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Ive used the barrel whoa system as well and the correct it gives is no more harsh than a tug on a slip-lead or choker if your set up is correct.

The uneasy wobble of the barrel teaches the dog to stay absolutely still. You don't progress off the barrel until the dog is solid in that situation. Some dogs prob get it in one session; others like mine have taken longer. The method is not the end all of whao training but sure is a method to introduce things. I like it better than the whoa post method myself...but to each his own.

great pics!


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## gilligan33 (Sep 30, 2004)

Is the barrel stabilized in any way? Or is it the dog's lack of movement that stabilized the barrel? Seems like the dog would need some help, but I realize the purpose of the barrel is to keep the dog from moving.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

A video of this would make it really clear there is no cruelty here. Some how the photos are making it look as if Sadam is being trained here. I am more interested in ol Jonsey's questions. 

Jonesy, do you use a barrel at all?

Scott, What is your next step?

Ben


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

redvdog said:


> Uncomfortable? As in hang itself? No way that chain length is going to allow a dog to reach the ground.
> You people post stuff like this and then wonder why the ARA are always "after your sport". Becomes more and more clear daily!


The dogs feet would reach just fine. I do agree that others may find this post curious. Like I said before if you could watch a video of this being done, it is AOK. 

I would only guess that Mr. Grush is more than fair to his pooches in training and to think he would put them in a situation that would harm them is laughable. His dogs live in his house and are treated as if they are his own kids.


BBMc


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

redvdog said:


> You people post stuff like this and then wonder why


This is nothing...I once saw this same guy shoot a poor defenseless bird...or maybe it was at it....irregardless...he was trying to hurt it. The poor thing was just sitting there minding it's own business, when him and his mean dogs came in, flush it and then he starts throwing lead at it...I will say one thing, it really pissed me off, too...granted, it was mostly because he got there before I did though.

The big meany!

He better watch himself...I've got my finger on the speed dail to PETA at this very moment.

Just for the record: I know Scott and his three mutts. Believe me...they have it better than I do, they're so spoiled. And, after a few more years of hanging with my dogs...they'll probably turn into some pretty nice bird dogs...

Brian.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Merimac said:


> . . .Scott, What is your next step?Ben


 
Water board?


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

The next step? hellifIknow!
Just keep reading the dog, she what she says is kosher, if she learns then I'll continue moving forward if she doesn't then stop what I'm doing and do something else.
Right now she is an energetic, cooperative student, I think you can see it in her body language. She is standing tall all blown up like she belongs up on that barrel, she likes it.
Immediately....I suppose I'll see if she will stand when I get in behind her, eventually she'll need to stand thru the flush and shot.
If I hit a stand still I've got plenty of resources available from very helpful knowledgeable friends. A big thank you goes out to those guys and they know who they are.
Right now she is still somewhat young, the barrel really is very little pressure, I'm just exposing her to differenet techniques and places hell I've even run her with some versatile dogs! :yikes: :lol:

It's all fun and mistakes are going to be made but as long as Kater is enjoying it and we learn a little each day that's what it is all about.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

gilligan33 said:


> Is the barrel stabilized in any way? Or is it the dog's lack of movement that stabilized the barrel? Seems like the dog would need some help, but I realize the purpose of the barrel is to keep the dog from moving.


 Yes there are blocks of wood you can't see thru the tall grass that keep the barrel from rolling away, it allows the barrel to move several inches either way but basically the dog stabilizes it under themselves.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

I know this dog as well. She is already standing her birds nicely on the ground (staunch). I think Scott is just putting a little polish on her. Some of you guys need to get real. He is not going to let her hang herself or hurt herself in any way. I myself don't use the barrel much, I like a six inch wide plank. 

Bruce


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## PahtridgeHunter (Sep 1, 2004)

Kate looks like she's really coming into her own! Great pics, Brotha! Even with "Dad" mugging up the frame!


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Thanks for the comments Bruce. The ignorant jabs from the "peanut gallery" on this forum of late are truly mind numbing. 

NB


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## PahtridgeHunter (Sep 1, 2004)

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Thanks for the comments Bruce. The ignorant jabs from the "peanut gallery" on this forum of late are truly mind numbing.
> 
> NB


 
Well, Rod, it's easy for them to take (misinformed, ignorant and sometimes downright stupid) shots from the comfort of their armchair!:lol:


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

scott, i think once shee is completely staunch on the barrel, lets you move around her and kick some grass, you will move her down on the grround with a bird in front of her.

i think that is the first time i have seen roger when he wasnt wearing a pair of carharrt bibs.

by the way i think roger can stand on that bbl providing he is balancing a glass of 12 year old scotch.<G>


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> scott, i think once shee is completely staunch on the barrel, lets you move around her and kick some grass, you will move her down on the grround with a bird in front of her.
> 
> i think that is the first time i have seen roger when he wasnt wearing a pair of carharrt bibs.
> 
> by the way i think roger can stand on that bbl providing he is balancing a glass of 12 year old scotch.<G>



Come again? the whole thing makes no sense to me?


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

It's obvious by the photos that the dog wouldn't hang herself if she fell off the barrell. She stands with her two hind feet on the ground and her front feet resting on the barrell without choking to death.

I know guys that use the barrell to train, and the dogs can't wait to get up. They come running out of the kennel to the barrell and put their 2 front paws on it waiting to be lifted up.

People look at the setup and just assume: hangman's gallows. 

As far as the ignorant jabs go, why stoop to that level with personal jabs back? An ounce of rational explanation sometimes goes a lot further.

The divisiveness on such simple training issues as this really does demonstrate how misalligned we all are.

Nice looking dog, Scott.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

steelheadfred, the object is to promote staunchness on point. it's not something i use but it is used by many. if the dog isnt staunch she loses her balance on t he barrel and gets immediate negative reinforcement. once the dog is staunch standing on the bbl, i think the next step is to get the dog on the ground with a bird in front of it.

i have a harness that goes around the flanks and can slip to tighten and also fastens to a collar. it works quite well as the dog resists the pressure on the flanks and will staunch up when pressure is applied. i just used it on k9wernets dog with quick and good results. 

ok?


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

Ok now, I am hoping that the people in discussion, are not saying I am poking, I am asking questions, and figuring out the whats an hows, on a puppy, or young dog.

Merimac, no I dont use the barrel, I teach it once instead of twice, I do it all on the ground, why work harder than it needs to be. Dogs on a tble, here....getting haircuts, or force fetched.

So how is this dog pointing on the barrel, I dont believe sight pointing is a fairness with a young dog. That dog isnt ever gonna scent point on a barrel, or a 2 x 6 so why work that? Why should the dog be afraid, or have to be afraid, of having its feet taken out when it decides to move? Why scare the dog into whats asked? Intimidation will get you know where with a dog. You should have the patience to teach without intimidating. It will be better for you an the dog.

I saw someone said dog is steady on the ground with birds.......why backstep training to the barrel? She is doing it decent to well on the ground, why not keep it there?

Whoa hasnt got a thing to do with scent pointing birds, why tell the dog to point? Dog foundation is major issue in all breeds of all dogs, if its doing what its supposed to and how its supposed to, why backstep, or not continue to build where you are, if its as steady as said, why not build, and keep confidence level up on high, then to change things all around, and risk the conf level to detour? Thanks Jonesy


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Nice looking dog. I bet all of those criticizing the method all run E-collars lol

Ganzer


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

as far as the barrel goes, as i said, i dont use it.

i do introduce sight pointing at an early age, the reasoning is, you dont know when they will see a bird they are pointing. i've had grouse walk around in frront of a dog daring them to break.

i bought a young dog a few years ago and took him to a trial area to see if we could find some leftover quail. the first he found were running up a two track like hansel and gretal. he did point them staunchly, by the way. i've given up on the leftover quail since that time.

i think scott just wanted to show off his dog, not start a training debate. and i think we can all agree that it sounds like he has a nice pup.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Good points Dave. It will take some level headedness to get a meaningful discussion going here. Scott has already given an honest response.

Let's see if those who curse the "armchair" responders can get this discussion going in the right direction with some useful information based on real experiences. Operators are standing by.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

since i dont use a barrel, it's hard to say much about it. but sight poiinting is a good topic along with methods to staunch a dog up on a sight point.

on a younger dog i use a harness i made, similiar to a half hitch but works better. for an older dog, i use pigeons with rubber bands on their wings (cant fly) and an ecollar.l


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

Great looking dog. It is nice to see her getting Safety Training (to keep her out of the pellet cone) :lol: Where did you get the rain barrel? Just kidding. Rodger is a great guy. I run across him every fall. Kind of a October Friend. Keep up the good work.


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

A lot of pressure is put on a dog at the point you want them to stand a bird that they can see. The pressure is even greater when the dog is expected to retrieve as they know they might get their mouth on the bird if all goes well in the session. A young dog needs to be taken through it very carefully. I only work my dogs to stand walking birds once they are VERY staunch and mature enough to handle it. This is usually after they have had polished work on about 100 birds. I worked two dogs (one 13 months and one 20 months) this morning with walking birds. Both dogs have have plenty of exposure to training birds and are completely steady. They are both ready for me to walk the quail out of cover for them and both had birds walk right under their noses. Dogs will vary on how they handle this, but the training needs to reflect the dogs readiness. When they are done, I will be walking birds between their legs and under their stomach before rewarding them with the next step.

I don't use the barrel either. I train heel and whoa at the same time on a lead. By the time I am walking birds, whoa is simply a reinforcement command should they be tempted to move on a walking bird.


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> you can't see thru the tall grass


Maybe, mention getting one of these to Rodger.












Brian.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Thanks Bruce, he's lookin' good!


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## milmo1 (Nov 9, 2005)

Great looking dog there. 
Sorry, I don't believe there is anything cruel in that pic. Most training involves some level of discomfort. Discomfort is not cruelty. 
I do seem to recall some very cruel pics 2es had of 2 setters in some sort of "torture recliner" in his living room... Very cruel indeed.


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

What I questioned scott on....hasnt got a thing to do with cruelty, or barrels or anything.....what it has got somethin to do with....... is pushing......dog hasnt even pointed a grouse before, as scott said. So he is in grouse country and might have a grouse dog.......or a dog with a head of sense that can handle a grouse. When you start pushing an adding things to dogs being pushed......dogs will have tendancy to fold, because of confusion. If the dog has a minimal amount of time in the field or woods, with minimal bird contact......the dogs thinking process, isnt ready for the extras...yet. Dog doesnt even know really how to hunt or handle.......... some of what its hunting. Just trying to give scott things to think about, before it had an oppertunity of falling. The extra pics, comments an stuff, doesnt have a thing to do with what I was trying to help scott, and on lookers with. Thanks Jonesy


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

tailcrackin said:


> What I questioned scott on....hasnt got a thing to do with cruelty, or barrels or anything.....what it has got somethin to do with....... is pushing......dog hasnt even pointed a grouse before, as scott said. So he is in grouse country and might have a grouse dog.......or a dog with a head of sense that can handle a grouse. When you start pushing an adding things to dogs being pushed......dogs will have tendancy to fold, because of confusion. If the dog has a minimal amount of time in the field or woods, with minimal bird contact......the dogs thinking process, isnt ready for the extras...yet. Dog doesnt even know really how to hunt or handle.......... some of what its hunting. Just trying to give scott things to think about, before it had an oppertunity of falling. The extra pics, comments an stuff, doesnt have a thing to do with what I was trying to help scott, and on lookers with. Thanks Jonesy


That's the nice thing about these trial bred dogs, they are mentally tough.
Way tougher than my old school setters.
This Pointer can take anything I throw at her, probably 5 times the amount of work I'm giving her. Maybe someone elses dog can't but you gotta read the dog, when the dog says it's OK ya keep pressing forward. Dave I think this is what you're getting at trying to watch out for others reading this board. Other breeds or dogs can't take this level of training at this age. 
Besides Bruce Minard is the guy that gets my training money and as he's the guy that has spent the most time training this dog so when he says, "break her out this Summer she's ready" I gotta believe she's ready.
My pace and style has worked for the other grouse dogs sleeping in my house to the regret of all the dead grouse that fall to my gun each Fall, I suspect that method will be Ok for a tough sumbitch Pointer too.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> I'd like to meet him sometime: maybe take Rock along as well.
> Speaking of Rock and high heads, I've noticed that he also holds his head very high and the longer he's on point, the higher he holds his head--up to about 45 degrees after about 3 minutes--he also begins to squint to the point that his eyes are nearly closed. In watching him, I get the impression that the simple act of pointing is effectively a very potent and addictive narcotic for him.


 
i'm free most of the time. let me know and i'll give vic a call. rocky is very stylish on point. there is a thread on head crank on the coverdog board. i think they are drinking in the scent as it floats on the wind. scent has to have a big effect on dogs, i've seen a dog pointing a covey of quail with a lot of scent and trembling all over.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> That's the nice thing about these trial bred dogs, they are mentally tough.
> Way tougher than my old school setters.
> This Pointer can take anything I throw at her, probably 5 times the amount of work I'm giving her. Maybe someone elses dog can't but you gotta read the dog, when the dog says it's OK ya keep pressing forward. Dave I think this is what you're getting at trying to watch out for others reading this board. Other breeds or dogs can't take this level of training at this age.
> Besides Bruce Minard is the guy that gets my training money and as he's the guy that has spent the most time training this dog so when he says, "break her out this Summer she's ready" I gotta believe she's ready.
> My pace and style has worked for the other grouse dogs sleeping in my house to the regret of all the dead grouse that fall to my gun each Fall, I suspect that method will be Ok for a tough sumbitch Pointer too.


i've only seen a few pointers, but my sense of it is they can be pushed more and earlier than setters. just a generalization, you can probably have a lot of variation between individuals. bruce is a very successful trainer and i would defer to his judgment if i were in your shoes. personally i do things my own way from my own experience, but if i were paying someone to train, i'd follow their lead.


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

One of the biggest things my father told me.......only thing you can count on is your fingers and toes.
Think about this...how many trial dogs they go threw to get something worth while? You think about your probs you had before bruce helped an saved the situation, dont recall if was posted here, but I know it was on another board. You have a nice dog was only looking out for the dog and yourself, getting in a hurry dont do a thing but give ya possibles on exploding bombs. Here is one that pops into mind with dogs whatever breeds, the softer usually break out easier and stronger, the tougher have tendancy to crack with the new work of steadying. Not always, but it does, or will happen. I hope it all turns out well, was just passing on some caution. Thanks Scott Jonesy


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> That's the nice thing about these trial bred dogs, they are mentally tough.


I've noticed the same in Kate's cousin Rock. Another difference that I've noticed between Rock and my older dogs is the very marked early development and natural instinct to do the right things on birds very early on with zero training.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> i'm free most of the time. let me know and i'll give vic a call. rocky is very stylish on point. there is a thread on head crank on the coverdog board. i think they are drinking in the scent as it floats on the wind. scent has to have a big effect on dogs, i've seen a dog pointing a covey of quail with a lot of scent and trembling all over.


Thanks Mike, I'll do that.


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

Tell Vic to get his butt up to the grouse trials to visit. The old timers that remember him are thinning out and I'm sure they'd like to see him again.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i'll tell him but it wont do any good. he promised his wife he would quit trialing when he retired. he sold and gave away everything and now wont go near it. he wont even go hunting. i got him to go to one RGS meeting, that's the best i could do. he's a golfer now. and he leaves for FL in late summer.


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

In that case wish him well. He left his mark and is well remembered in a good way. I never then nor now heard a bad word spoken about him. One of the old time gentlemen if ever there was one.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

that's good to hear. i enjoy talking dogs with him. he was retireing from the sport when i got to know him better. he gave me a number of things, training collar, paul long book held together with a rubber band, things like that. he offered me a nice pointer out of his last female too. 

he's pretty forthright, probably more so in private than he might be at a trial. but my impression was the same as yours.

i wish i could have got him to go to a good trial with me. it would have been an educational experience to get a play by play from an expert.

i met him when his sons bicycle was stolen. i recovered it for him and brought it back. you would have thought i had solved a homicide.<G>

i also took him to a lans rgs dinner a few years ago. found out he was the first president. he introduced me to all the "old guys". a freind won jack stuarts book in a raffle and gave it to me. vic riffled through it and showed me his dogs picture in the back. i'd known him for years, knew he was an active trialer, but that's the first time i knew he had a ru natl ch.

i ran into him in a store the other day. i think he said he is 82. looks fit, had heart surgery a few years ago. t he golf must agree with him. i understand he has a low handicap.

as soon as mike can go, we'll go see him some evening. i'll tell him you asked about him. he'll be pleased.

MIke


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

2ESRGR8 said:


> That's the nice thing about these trial bred dogs, they are mentally tough.
> Way tougher than my old school setters.
> This Pointer can take anything I throw at her, probably 5 times the amount of work I'm giving her. Maybe someone elses dog can't but you gotta read the dog, when the dog says it's OK ya keep pressing forward. Dave I think this is what you're getting at trying to watch out for others reading this board. Other breeds or dogs can't take this level of training at this age.
> Besides Bruce Minard is the guy that gets my training money and as he's the guy that has spent the most time training this dog so when he says, "break her out this Summer she's ready" I gotta believe she's ready.
> My pace and style has worked for the other grouse dogs sleeping in my house to the regret of all the dead grouse that fall to my gun each Fall, I suspect that method will be Ok for a tough sumbitch Pointer too.


Well said Scott. People who haven't trialed a dog like this have no earthly idea what these dogs can handle. Watch and learn people, this dog will be right there competing with the big dogs in no time.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

tailcrackin said:


> One of the biggest things my father told me.......only thing you can count on is your fingers and toes.


Have you ever seen Scott's dog? Have you spent any amount of time with her? If not, please don't preach about what this dog can or cannot handle. 


I find it amusing that of anyone here, you are picking an ignorant fight with an intelligent bird hunter and _his_ dog.


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

I am sorry that you feel I am talking to scott negatively, I wasnt, I am not picking a fight, and again, am sorry for tryin to help people understand dogs. here is my quote from pg 3, again sorry, Thanks guys/gals Jonesy



> Now, this is in your topic Scott, and I am not pointing or poking, tryin to help others? It hasnt got a thing to do with the owner....I answer about the topic of dogs. I try an help to get others to think about the dogs, and what they are working with, along with .....whats an whys of training. Thanks Jonesy


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## ScavengerMan (Sep 6, 2006)

I can't believe how ignorant the skeptics are on this thread. 

What some are witnessing for the first time is a dog training itself to be staunch. For 98% of the dogs i've seen in the field, with that means not charging into a bird and busting it. 

Thank you very much for sharing these excellent pics of Kater being trained right. My gosh, this guy makes me want to buy a bird dog! Perhaps I can show this old timer what it takes to shoot in the 70's from the blue tees if he will invest that kind of skill on a well bred prospect. That isn't a Robinson _Hunt Close_ type method, it's like Delmar like Smith style of teaching a dog to steady himself in the presence of birds if I've ever seen it!!! Very impressive......


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