# Meeting with Randy Claramunt, Thursday, March 8th, @ 7pm - Blue Water Sportfishing Association



## Chasin (Jun 25, 2002)

charminultra said:


> Did they say anything about perch?


Just a little about the limit changes in Saginaw bay. Most of the talk was around the nets and silver fish. No discussion's on walleye as well.


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## SJC (Sep 3, 2002)

slightofhand said:


> Great atlantic fishing....but how many millions of dollars of economic input are being generated from the program? Sounds like a brown trout boondoggle to me....cool fish, low angler attraction/participation. I hear Sarafin is dumping lake trout by the grossload as bycatch from whitefish fishing. Thats probably why the baitfish are coming back, he is single handedly solving the lake trout problem with a belly up approach lol!
> 
> Baitfish surveys.....Let me get this straight. On lake michigan we have the USGS and the MDNR with multiple research vessels and hydroacoustics and trawl nets literally scraping everywhere... Meanwhile, Randy Claramunt is doing baitfish surveys on Lake Huron with a freakin camera???? WTF. Total joke right here. Lake Michigan lives and dies by the erroneous and highly suspect (and intense) baitfish surveys...but Lake Huron cant count anything? Laughingstock. Get it right Huron management people, you can't even justify your employment at this point much less the predators you are stocking. Is that Frank Krist guy still alive and running the mdnr show over there? Get rid of that guy, he drove this thing into the ground and its not going to change until he is gone, one way or another.


Since when is it the DNR's responsibility to provide jobs? Everyone who buys a fishing license is a stakeholder, not just charter captains and tackle companies. I started and have ran my tool and die company for almost 20 years. During slow times, I can't cry to some government agency to provide me work. I've had to modify my business practices to go after different niches. Most charter captains that are still thriving have done the same. There's still a lot of good fishing to be had, and it appears to be improving. If your a charter and can't make it without a bumper boat stage up king fishery, maybe it's time to get a real job.

The browns were a good thing and around here, a ton of people fished for them. They were available year round and provided great shore, river, pier, ice and near shore opportunities. I know of guys that have been making trips to Wisconsin the last few years just for browns. 

You know that they are using the same methods of surveying bait on Huron that the are on Michigan. In fact, Huron has been beating Michigan in total kilotons of bait. Just not ales, maybe that's why the fish taste better...


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## SJC (Sep 3, 2002)

slightofhand said:


> I speak to sarafin now and then. He pays guys $15 an hour to shovel lake trout carcasses back into the water while he is targeting whitefish. He hates lake trout. They are a waste of a resource to sportsmen and commercial guys. Randy should go fish with sarafin to see it first hand. Sarafin is crying and pleading to get the lake trout out of the lake. Again next to zero angler target and harvest. They are a nuisance that needs to be eliminated. You can’t pay sarafin enough to kill them mdnr should at least subsidize his workers for solving their self inflicted lake trout issue
> 
> Why is Randy not on the horn with magical Dave warner from the usgs and get his million dollar vessels down from cheboygan to do some surveys? That guy is an alewife whisperer. If theres an alewife any where around warner will be sure to avoid it. No excuse for poor baitfish assessments. It’s a cover up and a lie to hide the fact that ZERO predators should be stocked in Lake Huron. There is NO FOOD. Huron anglers, myself included, have been lied to for decades from Frank krist and others. They drove this thing into the ground and Claramunt better get it turned around ASAP. No excuse for poor management


I wonder if this mythical alewive whisperer was in the USGS boat full of nets that was docked at RC last summer. They flew past us and went right out of sight into the blue yonder while we were marking bait 5 to 20 foot deep and catching fish full of smelt and ales. I agree that they do a poor assessment in both lakes. I also agree that the laker thing has been mishandled, has gotten out of control and has slowed down bait recovery. I do not agree that Huron has no food. I believe what I see. Not only are we seeing/marking more bait, but all fish we have been catching have been fat and sassy. Of the over 40 steelhead we landed over the weekend, all were beautiful specimens. Last week I caught a 22" coho and some browns that were absolute footballs. These fish must be eating something...


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## gino (Aug 11, 2003)

My brother caught a 21" coho this weekend in lower lake huron, from shore. The fish was absolutely stuffed with shiners. There was 24 in its gut that looked like were just eaten and then a few more that were almost fully digested.

There was plenty of bait along the wall where we were fishing!


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## RedM2 (Dec 19, 2007)

Just a quick note regarding bait... the MDNR is still continuing the stomach sample studies to determine what bait the fish are consuming in Lake Huron. Randy brought it up at the meeting, too. Anderson's Pro Bait is supposed to be getting the bags to participate if you're interested .


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## gino (Aug 11, 2003)

Thank You RedM2. We had no idea they were conducting such a study. I have photos of what was in the stomach, but not the contents themselves.

We got a walleye last fall that had 15 small gizzard shad as well as a few minnows it is gut.

Any future fish we catch, we will make sure to document the contents.


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## SJC (Sep 3, 2002)

gino said:


> My brother caught a 21" coho this weekend in lower lake huron, from shore. The fish was absolutely stuffed with shiners. There was 24 in its gut that looked like were just eaten and then a few more that were almost fully digested.
> 
> There was plenty of bait along the wall where we were fishing!


I actually caught a 22" coho a couple weeks ago while surf fishing. Biggest spring coho I've ever caught.


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## slightofhand (Jul 21, 2010)

SJC said:


> Since when is it the DNR's responsibility to provide jobs? Everyone who buys a fishing license is a stakeholder, not just charter captains and tackle companies. I started and have ran my tool and die company for almost 20 years. During slow times, I can't cry to some government agency to provide me work. I've had to modify my business practices to go after different niches. Most charter captains that are still thriving have done the same. There's still a lot of good fishing to be had, and it appears to be improving. If your a charter and can't make it without a bumper boat stage up king fishery, maybe it's time to get a real job.
> 
> The browns were a good thing and around here, a ton of people fished for them. They were available year round and provided great shore, river, pier, ice and near shore opportunities. I know of guys that have been making trips to Wisconsin the last few years just for browns.
> 
> You know that they are using the same methods of surveying bait on Huron that the are on Michigan. In fact, Huron has been beating Michigan in total kilotons of bait. Just not ales, maybe that's why the fish taste better...


Who said anything about jobs? I want a kick ass fishery not a lake trout wasteland. Is that too much to ask? You sound like a world beater out there...too bad the rest of us schleps who fish Lake Huron catch 90% lake trout. I could care less about charters they love lake trout anyway because it makes them feel good to catch and easy limit


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## SJC (Sep 3, 2002)

slightofhand said:


> Who said anything about jobs? I want a kick ass fishery not a lake trout wasteland. Is that too much to ask? You sound like a world beater out there...too bad the rest of us schleps who fish Lake Huron catch 90% lake trout. I could care less about charters they love lake trout anyway because it makes them feel good to catch and easy limit


I agree that there's a lake trout problem, but I catch way less than 90% lake trout in Huron, and I see hope for the future. Instead of pissing and moaning about all the past mistakes, I'm hoping that lessons have been learned and things will continue to improve.


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## seabass810 (Apr 2, 2010)

This is my catch total from last year. All lake Huron minus the surf steelhead. 
KING----1
COHO----2
ATLANTIC----2
BOAT STEELHEAD-3----SURF-16
LAKERS----25
WALLEYE--23
That's the most walleye and I wasn't even targeting them and that was in 100+ft of water. Some days I couldnt find a lake trout to save my life and I can usually drum them up pretty easily. I was a little disappointed in the amount of steelhead I saw or for that matter didn't see in lake Huron.


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## slightofhand (Jul 21, 2010)

SJC said:


> I agree that there's a lake trout problem, but I catch way less than 90% lake trout in Huron, and I see hope for the future. Instead of pissing and moaning about all the past mistakes, I'm hoping that lessons have been learned and things will continue to improve.


Well the first step to improvement would be to kick that lake trout loving frank krist guy off the committee. He is nearly single handedly responsible for driving this lake into the ground and no dramatic changes in lake trout stocking or harvest will happen with him anywhere near the committee. We need a massive increase in lake trout commercial harvest by tribes and non tribals in order to get the rampant trout population under control. Nothing will change until that happens


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## fstcatch (Apr 4, 2010)

slightofhand said:


> Well the first step to improvement would be to kick that lake trout loving frank krist guy off the committee. He is nearly single handedly responsible for driving this lake into the ground and no dramatic changes in lake trout stocking or harvest will happen with him anywhere near the committee. We need a massive increase in lake trout commercial harvest by tribes and non tribals in order to get the rampant trout population under control. Nothing will change until that happens


RedM2, you are the eternal optimist. First thing you need to do is separate your liking of Randy and just evaluate his performance. He and his entire staff has let the fisherman and the State down his entire career.
I had the displeasure of specking to Mr. Baker and I asked him simple Fisheries 101 questions; How many Steelhead and Atlantics will Lake Huron support with prey species available, managing any fishery, predator/prey analyses is paramount. He had no answer! You cannot expect to produce an exiting pelagic fishery to come close to what the Chinook provided without this analysis. 
Lake Huron Fisheries Managers have done nothing to fill that huge void since the late 90's. USFW and DNR trawls in the late 90's were showing alarming declines in Alewives and by 2002 there were none in Southern Lake Huron, I think the fall trawls of 2003, One(1) Alewife was recorded.
I could have given this scenario to a bunch of pot headed first year fisheries students and 90% would have had the solution. Immediately halt the planting of a species that absolutely needs alewife to survive and concentrate on pelagic species that will take advantage of existing prey. Instead they continued to plant millions of chinook salmon until 2012!! I posed this question to Baker also, he paused for 20-30 seconds and then passed the buck! All the while Mr. Dexter, Baker, Randy and whomever you talk to will tell you how expensive it is to raise Atlantics and Steelhead! Impossible to calculate the money lost to the State and the ports along Lake Huron because of their mismanagement. What accountability is there? Can you imagine a Biologist planting fish into a lake where they cannot survive? 10's of millions of dollars thrown away!
Not to quell your enthusiasm for the fishery but in Lexington last year there was 30,000 angler hours spent to catch 177 Atlantics! 2016, 450 were caught in 23,000 odd hours. Atlantics and Steelhead are awesome fish, don't know if you are familiar with Lake Erie's Steelhead fishery, it is the best in the World! New York and Pennsylvania have the best catch rates in all of the Great Lakes and over twice that of the most famous rivers in the Western US and Canada. Tiny little ports of Erieau and Wheatley have hundreds of boats catching thousand of Steelhead for the better part of two months, with a by catch of thousands of walleyes. Do you want to know why, 2.1 million Steelhead planted yearly!
The BWSC and Thumb Steelheaders need to concentrate their efforts on taking to Senators and Representatives and forget the DNR. Concentrate on Non-fisherman and show what an awesome fishery can do for our State's revenue.
I don't care if you are managing a sidewalk lemonade stand or GM, it takes money to make money.
I could go on but I will end with this; If Mr. Claramunt and his entire staff had been fired 20 years ago, Lake Huron's fishery would be exactly where it is today in regards to angler hours and catch rates! 177 Atlantics in 30,000 hrs. does not make a difference.
The only feather in the DNRs cap in 25 years is Walleye, and 90% of that success story goes to 4 or 5 fishing clubs who worked their butts off, filling ponds, feed plankton, draining ponds, and corralling fry!! To this day all walleye planted in our state are planted by fishing clubs.
Check out Lake Huron Fishing Club in Ontario.


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## RedM2 (Dec 19, 2007)

fstcatch said:


> RedM2, you are the eternal optimist. First thing you need to do is separate your liking of Randy and just evaluate his performance. He and his entire staff has let the fisherman and the State down his entire career.
> I had the displeasure of specking to Mr. Baker and I asked him simple Fisheries 101 questions; How many Steelhead and Atlantics will Lake Huron support with prey species available, managing any fishery, predator/prey analyses is paramount. He had no answer! You cannot expect to produce an exiting pelagic fishery to come close to what the Chinook provided without this analysis.
> Lake Huron Fisheries Managers have done nothing to fill that huge void since the late 90's. USFW and DNR trawls in the late 90's were showing alarming declines in Alewives and by 2002 there were none in Southern Lake Huron, I think the fall trawls of 2003, One(1) Alewife was recorded.
> I could have given this scenario to a bunch of pot headed first year fisheries students and 90% would have had the solution. Immediately halt the planting of a species that absolutely needs alewife to survive and concentrate on pelagic species that will take advantage of existing prey. Instead they continued to plant millions of chinook salmon until 2012!! I posed this question to Baker also, he paused for 20-30 seconds and then passed the buck! All the while Mr. Dexter, Baker, Randy and whomever you talk to will tell you how expensive it is to raise Atlantics and Steelhead! Impossible to calculate the money lost to the State and the ports along Lake Huron because of their mismanagement. What accountability is there? Can you imagine a Biologist planting fish into a lake where they cannot survive? 10's of millions of dollars thrown away!
> ...


I think you are the first person to give me credit as an eternal optimist, but there's a first for everything. I don't think any of the information I've provided was inferred, so I am not connecting the dots on your comment regarding optimism.

I can't comment on Jim Baker as I've never met him, read his work, or heard him speak. I do know Randy Claramunt presented information regarding the biomass of baitfish in Lake Huron and added that their equipment is missing (verified by camera) baitfish, but didn't give an estimate on what they may be missing other than a little about gobies.

Randy didn't say, "it's expensive to raise Atlantics." He did tell us what it costs to raise each Atlantic, but he didn't communicate anything (that I recall anyways) to suggest the cost of Atlantics is concerning. He talked about the good returns on those fish and the desire to increase the numbers planted and drop the experimental tag on the program to go into full stocking mode.

Where did you get the angler participation hours from? I am not doubting you, I just haven't seen them posted anywhere.

I am aware of Lake Erie's excellent fishery, but I've not taken advantage of it. I spend the month of July on Lake Ontario fishing, so I know what an excellent fishery looks like. I think I put something like 120 hours in fishing Lake Ontario last July. I might fish Lake Erie from the Canadian shore a few times this summer?

I agree there have been many mistakes in the past, but it's almost impossible to move forward if you keep looking back. All stakeholders need to be mindful of past mistakes that were made and do our best to avoid them.


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## fstcatch (Apr 4, 2010)

RedM2 said:


> I think you are the first person to give me credit as an eternal optimist, but there's a first for everything. I don't think any of the information I've provided was inferred, so I am not connecting the dots on your comment regarding optimism.
> 
> I can't comment on Jim Baker as I've never met him, read his work, or heard him speak. I do know Randy Claramunt presented information regarding the biomass of baitfish in Lake Huron and added that their equipment is missing (verified by camera) baitfish, but didn't give an estimate on what they may be missing other than a little about gobies.
> 
> ...


All that information is on the DNR website.


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## RedM2 (Dec 19, 2007)

fstcatch said:


> All that information is on the DNR website.


Can you provide a direct link to the location or PDF on the MDNR site?


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## fstcatch (Apr 4, 2010)

RedM2 said:


> Can you provide a direct link to the location or PDF on the MDNR site?


Search "Creel clerks and angler survey".

You are certainly a "Half Full" Guy!

I have fished all of the Great Lakes for over 50 years, I also posses the same degrees that these gentlemen have, so I speak from experience. I chose the private sector for my career because I have expensive addictions and I will not compromise my integrity to appease people who have ulterior motives. 

I don't know Randy's Bio but I think he took over for Jim Johnson. The bottom line is all the players have been here thru the debacle. Fisheries managers in Michigan road the wave of brilliance by Dr. Tanner and Wayne Tody for 50 years! When they had the chance to change from "Monitors" to "Fisheries Managers", they failed miserably. They have no vision and will continue to fail, if today they determined Lake Huron can support 1 million Steelhead and 1 million Atlantics, how long do you think it would take them to pull it off. These men have had a long tenure and still they have little vison for the future! They should have been searching for a solution beginning in the late 90's. They had the Data.

If you really want to test your optimism, contact Randy and repeat the scenario I outlined, his response will go a long way to your future optimism.



I hope in the near future you will plan some of your July spent on Lake Huron.


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## RedM2 (Dec 19, 2007)

fstcatch said:


> Search "Creel clerks and angler survey".
> 
> You are certainly a "Half Full" Guy!
> 
> ...


I try to be a glass half full kinda guy, but I'm just not seeing where I'm being overly optimistic here. 

I didn't know there were private sector careers dealing with the Great Lakes fisheries. What were the ulterior motives? Lakers, native species focus, pacify the tribes, etc? 

I think Jim Dexter should resign or be forced out (I've been beating that drum for awhile), but there are multiple groups pulling fisheries managers in different directions with very little of what they're wanting to have happen based on sound science or data as near as I can tell. 

I've found fishing gets decent again in August in southern Lake Huron, so that's usually when I start fishing it again.


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## charminultra (Feb 8, 2017)

I looked up the creel survey and your numbers don’t match. Also the hours listed are for all species not just Atlantic’s.


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## RedM2 (Dec 19, 2007)

fstcatch said:


> Search "Creel clerks and angler survey".


Here's s screenshot of the information I got using the search method you suggested.


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## andyotto (Sep 11, 2003)

RedM2 said:


> I try to be a glass half full kinda guy, but I'm just not seeing where I'm being overly optimistic here.
> 
> I didn't know there were private sector careers dealing with the Great Lakes fisheries. What were the ulterior motives? Lakers, native species focus, pacify the tribes, etc?
> 
> ...


RedM2, quit being such an optimist. You half full guys kill me. Now go sit in the corner and stew about DNR's past mistakes like a real Lake Huron fisherman. LOL

In all seriousness if you look through Red's past post he has always been very even handed in his opinions on DNR decisions being plenty critical of their short comings. All he has done here is report his findings which I appreciate greatly. 

BTW I can't wait to get back out on the big water this summer. (eternal optimist!)


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## slightofhand (Jul 21, 2010)

fstcatch said:


> Search "Creel clerks and angler survey".
> 
> You are certainly a "Half Full" Guy!
> 
> ...


Whoever this person above is....he gets it. The “debacle” is self inflicted wounds by extremely poor management and being run over like a two bit whore by the Feds and GLFC. I’m not afraid to say it, the rest of you are. We all sit here and whelp about what happened but this entire “collapse “ in Huron and “impending decades long collapse “ in Lake Michigan is entirely avoidable....except
For the fact that we have weak and impotent whitecoats being pushed around by the Feds instead of smart business minded individuals who can actually accomplish something and are willing to be held accountable if they fail. .....And are not afraid to stand up to the Feds in defense of their own constituents. I fully
Support any organization who goes scorched earth on the entire menagerie of “managers” until this entire situation gets turned around. Happy to hear Randy is thinking about growing a set, and Wesley the same. Dexter is a schlep who let this whole thing crumble under his tenure and deserves the same ill fate as the feds. Out with them and let Randy and Wesley get this heading back in the right direction. Those guys are tanner guys at the core, it’s time for them to step it up and get back to the vision that delivered huge participation levels and not this wishy washy native only garbage.


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## jpmarko (Feb 26, 2010)

slightofhand said:


> I fully
> Support any organization who goes scorched earth on the entire menagerie of “managers” until this entire situation gets turned around. Happy to hear Randy is thinking about growing a set, and Wesley the same. Dexter is a schlep who let this whole thing crumble under his tenure and deserves the same ill fate as the feds. Out with them and let Randy and Wesley get this heading back in the right direction. Those guys are tanner guys at the core, it’s time for them to step it up and get back to the vision that delivered huge participation levels and not this wishy washy native only garbage.


Amen to that.


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