# Closed bass season in Michigan



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

Water Wolves, you accuse me of getting s**tty with you. Really? How did I do that? By asking you a few questions about how involved you've ever been in working for the betterment of the outdoors sports? You are trying to 'rally' the people of the site against me. You are trying to make this personal. I did not do this and I did not mean for people to think I was baiting anyone. Actually, the only ones who would really think I was baiting are the ones who are dead set against a change. I will probably never change any of their minds anyway.

I really did and do want to know what the anglers on this site think so that I can share what I have learned. They can share what they know. I'm sure there are people out there who would like to know. I hope that is why so many people have read this thread. I imagine some people don't post exactly because they are worried someone like you will belittle them for their opinion and/or knowledge, especially if it disagrees with someone else's opinion. I apologize to anyone who thought I was baiting. I did not intend to.

I also noticed that you did not answer any of my questions about how many public meetings you've ever attended or spoke out at, or how many letters you've ever written, but you did try to redirect things by accusing me of being the negative attacker and by making fun of me.

It appears you are accusing me of not supporting goby eradication? Where did I say that? No where I'm aware of. I will bet I've actually done more concrete things to work on issues like this than you have. If that isn't true, please post here what meetings you have spoken at and what letters you have written so everyone knows that you have tried to make a difference. I have plenty of examples for myself such as when I met with a Congressman who was on a committee that would be involved in deciding how much money was sent to Michigan for sea lamprey eradication. Not too many bass are victims of sea lamprey, but it is a generally bad species for Michigan, so I spoke with the Congressman from Brighton to ask for continued solid financial support from the federal government to continue and improve our efforts against this nuisance species.

Bass don't need spawning protection. I did say that and I have the backing of fisheries biologists from all over the country and some in Michigan on that. I will debate with others, but I don't try to personally attack people. I will mention the screen name of someone who's point I am addressing directly for clarity. I don't believe disagreeing with someone constitutes any kind of bad act.

As far as biting of more than I can chew. I will work on the issue of bass management in this state as long as I live. I will push for scientific management over social as long as I draw a breath. You didn't make any points at all and you didn't threaten to kick my butt or something like that. I've been physically threatened at high-tension public meetings before so I don't expect anything you say or do will bother me very much. That doesn't stop me from pointing out that your posts add nothing useful and makes me question why you even bother to get involved in the topic if you don't have any interest in it personally.

I hope some anglers are interested in it even if they don't post anything. As long as a lot of people are reading the thread, it's worth all my effort even if a few people post disagreements and no one posts any more agreement. It does seem a little strange that anyone would try to belittle someone else who is just trying to do something that could benefit many others. Why would anyone do that?


----------



## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

DJ,
Your long winded responses are difficult to read through. It is much easier to make a point or two in a short and to the point post, and people will be much more likely to read it.
In reading through your responses I find contradiction, obfuscation, and irrelevance. All the while you evade answering direct questions with direct answers.
The contention that people must agree with you because hundreds have read the thread and few have responded is ludicrous at best. Either side of the discussion can take that position. It would be more likely that the people not responding agree with the majority of negatyive responses, and feel they have no need to reiterate what has already been said. (Or fell asleep reading some of the posts).
Just because a study is the most recent available, doesn't make it's findings correct at present. Conditions can (and have) change radically since a studies conclusion.
I will not, under any circumstances give any credence to your contention that Bass populations have not collapsed, despite them having been under a lot of pressure from being fished during the spawn since the mid 80's. We have a word for such activities, ILLEGAL. There is no way you can convince me that such a significant number of anglers are already breaking the law that changing the law would have little impact. The vast majority anglers are law abiding citizens. It is your responsibility to report infractions when you see them, weather or not you agree with the law.
I will not potentially damage the legacy of excellent fishing I intend to leave to my children, for my own selfish gain.


----------



## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

> I hope some anglers are interested in it even if they don't post anything. As long as a lot of people are reading the thread, it's worth all my effort even if a few people post disagreements and no one posts any more agreement. It does seem a little strange that anyone would try to belittle someone else who is just trying to do something that could benefit many others. Why would anyone do that?


If they were interested, they're asleep now. Personally, I found the topic quite interesting, until it was chewed again, threw up and chewed some more. You must have an abundance of time on your hands, either that or your making your secretary type all this redundancy. I bet it's not in her job description.

You keep mentioning having data from several Biologists some from Michigan and they're all advocates of an early season. 
Prior to Paul's mention of the problem with the goby population, I was all for an early C&R fishery, but since have taken a more cautious stance. Do these "Biologists" have the proper credentials to even make a hypothesis on something that is "Unknown"? How do the other States, like Ohio feel toward an early season? 
Please don't write a book, my time is very limited and books on political views turn me off.

Thanks


----------



## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

You keep saying that there is no proof that a closed season is necessary. All I am saying is that there is no proof that a catch and release season would not be harmful to the bass population. I can go through your posts and pull out the relevant quotes if need be, but it's there. There is one relevant study that was done on inland lakes that was inconclusive at best and not followed up on. It doesn't meet the criteria of scientific proof. Studies done on Lake Fork in Texas really are not significant in this debate. 

There are biologists in the MDNR that agree with your position. There are biologists that disagree. If it ever comes to a point where there is a consensus in favor of opening the season, I am sure that they will.

You say that you want scientific management but yet you also say that you think that it may sometime get to a general election ballot and you want to educate the anglers for that day. Education implies knowing both sides of the issue and that is not exactly what you are presenting. That is why I have to discount your resume. It is impressive and I give you credit for what you have done in the world of bass fishing but the truth of the matter is you see things with blinders on. There is a bias to your research. You are always looking from the perspective of "Is there anything here to justify eliminating the closed season." You discount the arguments supporting the season. It just isn't that cut and dry. I don't really believe that there is some conspiracy at the DNR to withhold oppurtionity from bass anglers.

Sounds like you already can fish for bass if you like. You just go out and 'target' another species and catch all the smallies you want. Just like this post from another board this spring before the season opened.



> Title: Lake st. clair smallies
> Message:Went out onwed. with a guide again and just killed them, a lot of smallies but we caught them in deeper water so not to desturb any bedding bass, caught the most in anchor bay on just about every lure we threw, and all for the price of peanuts...................lol


I believe when this fired up others on that board this was your reply:



> hookset told me he's had a license to guide for 6 years. He says he was walleye fishing. I don't know why he's so defensive about it since he was walleye fishing or why everyone here is getting things worked up. It's just an exuberant kid who's gone on and on about all the bass they caught that started this. I still think the kid is really his dad...or his agent. Let's go fishing.
> 
> Bish, I'm proud of you.
> Dan


A logical man indeed . . . .


----------



## Water Wolves (Jan 20, 2002)

*Please donate to the United Bass Egg College Fund. Because an egg is a terrible thing to waste.*









Kimmel, please give up now and save yourself further embarrassment.


WW


----------



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

Sheesh! Youre even accusing me now of misuse of company resources and you dont even know where I work, or when. Funny. Im a very fast typist myself and have published over 100 articles in various membership and outdoor publications. I have no idea how many letters Ive written over the years. Ive typed a ton of characters over the past 20 years - all by my own 10 fingers.

So how do I take a complex topic and explain it in 100 words or less? I can see that I will not make a few of you happy no matter what I do. I could make most of the same claims about you that you have made about me and there are only about, what 5 or 6 of you out of a bunch who have said all these things - more about me personally than the actual subject too. Of course, I wouldnt get very far doing so since I just want to know what a lot of people think. I already now know what you few think and I see a lot of people have checked this thread. If you believe I said I know what they are thinking because they have not responded, then you misunderstood me. Im not sure if that is my fault or yours or no ones. It doesnt matter. They may just want to read and think about it - I hope.

It is obvious a few of you are as set against the issue of legal catch and release spring bass fishing in Michigan for various reasons as I am for and therefore, I will not change your mind even if I have biologists come on here and tell you directly the same things. You will find a way to disagree because you are showing all the same characteristics you accuse me of. They say it takes one to know one, I guess. I dont mean that in a confrontational way. Its just clear you are doing the same things you say Im doing other than not quite so long-winded. I dont mind debate, but I really dont like rechewing the same things too many more times than anyone else does. Sometimes, it just happens, especially when someone accuses you of behavior they themselves are also doing.

Im a little sorry I cant make everyone happy, but who can? I will do my best for my cause to be as clear as I can and provide good information for those who might actually want to read it, but it is a complex topic and even though you say I have blinders and am only seeing one side, the more I put on here to show all the issues, the more you few will complain about my long-windedness. I cant win with you, but I will do my best in hopes that many will still check this thread or any others on the topic I am able to start if it seems appropriate and read it and think about it so they can make up their own minds. Of course, I want them to agree with me. I am not a reporter. Im an activist for bass fishing issues - I guess thats as good as any description.

If you dont like long posts, dont read them. If you dont like my style or what I say or how I say it, stop right here. Im not forcing you or anyone to read this. You have a choice. Its a free country. Go read something else. If you want to make fun of me or my issues, go ahead. Thats your business. It doesnt accomplish a whole lot, but I guess you can do whatever this site allows. I dont mind. Ive stood face to face in public meetings many times with a lot worse and came out the other side okay. Ive also accomplished quite a bit for bass anglers in this state. Ive lost a time or two also, but it didnt stop me from trying.

My main issue is simple. I believe that we should have legal catch and release bass fishing on all waters of the state of Michigan during any closed season. To explain why I believe that and to provide supporting information to help other anglers decide is not simple. I could be a lot more long-winded if I wanted to present exactly how complex fish management can be, but I actually try to limit some info because I know some anglers in Michigan dont want to know every small detail as I do. I also know the MDNR does not have the personnel, budget or support to manage things too complexly anyway.

I could post 20 smaller posts with a topic or issue or two in each one you like, but I guess before I change too much, Id want more feedback from other readers than just the handful of you that have been vocal so far. I will do my best to work with the majority, but I have no idea right now what the majority on this site thinks. I know more about that on other sites and with various groups.

If more people want to provide feedback to me on this topic than just the few here, you can email me at [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> if you have questions and dont want to post here. My feelings arent hurt that easily if you want to make constructive criticism on this site or in email. It would be interesting to know how many actual individual persons have read this thread so I could estimate how many might be leaning for or against my proposal, but I have no idea yet, since Im fairly new, if that type of information is obtainable.


----------



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

I will not risk damaging anyones legacy. Therefore, some people, especially people who know me well, might believe I must be pretty sure of my facts and position. I wont roll dice on something this important to me.

If you are reading this and have an open mind to the topic of spring bass fishing as catch and immediate release only, the things I say may be in the best interest of the goal of having our bass season changed as Ive described. People can say things are just my opinion OR just the opinion of various fisheries biologist, but I ask you to please think about this one thing: the vast majority of the states in the country  north and south  do not have a closed bass season! Im in the process of refiguring the various bass seasons because a few states have recently gone to more complex bass management, but well over 40 do not have a closed season and several that have some type of closed season allow legal catch and release bass fishing in the spring  mostly in the north.

Therefore, based on the opinions and/or knowledge of these very biologists, their entire states bass seasons and populations are being managed and have been for years. I can get more studies and post the results here ad nauseaum only to have other persons pull out various parts, even ignoring the actual findings, and try to prove this position or that for various reasons. But to be as short and to the point as possible, I can just point to the above, all these other states run by professional biologists who read all the same things our biologists read DO NOT HAVE A CLOSED BASS SEASON!

Why would approximately 90% of the states bass be managed one way while we are managed another in contradiction to the majority? The goby is the latest (after the zebra mussel which so far has actually helped smallmouths) in a line of concerns and concern is a good thing, but Ohio has no closed bass season and they are the only state doing an actual study on gobies and smallies. One of the biologists involved in the study told me they will not reach any conclusions probably for 4 or 5 years. And they would not change the bass season on Lake Erie unless something drastic becomes apparent. That is for a catch and KEEP season, not catch and release.

Neither Michigan, nor Pennsylvania have a goby study in the works yet. I have not heard anything yet from my friends in Ontario about any structured studies on gobies there either. My opinion is considering the value of the Lake St. Clair and Lake Erie bass fishery, that goby studies would be underway in those places if the concern was high enough since gobies have been here for up to 4 years now.

One change I have noticed is that big smallmouths are eating lots of gobies which is causing some feeding behavior changes in the bass, especially on St. Clair. Another thing to mention is that gobies feed quite a bit on zebra mussels and may be the only major predator of the zebras besides sheepshead. At this time, after several seasons, there are no measurable changes in smallmouths on either lake attributable to gobies. I personally dont want to wait 4 or 5 more years only to find out that the fish have adapted again as they have to all the other exotics. Since I would only like to see catch and immediate release, the impact would be minimal compared to other potential changes and would be easier to change again in case any long term harm is finally ever documented.

I prefer the approach of the Indiana biologist who told me there policy is that they would have to have very strong evidence of necessity before they would ever take away fishing opportunities from their citizens. Thanks for reading.


----------



## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

ZZZZZZZZ


----------



## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

I started out to TRY to read this entire thread but there's NO WAY that I'm going to do that. I don't have any NO-DOZ ! Maybe I'll try again some night when insomnia gets the better of me.

I'm not about to go through and read all of the scientific data presented here. In my mind, the argument for a closed season is good enough for me. I believe that pulling bass off of their beds DOES allow for predation of the eggs. Sure, this is ALWAYS going to happen naturally. That is why fish lay so many eggs. Only a small percentage of them ever reach maturity. If we allow the fish to be pulled from their beds and therefore reduce the number of eggs it is going to affect the population eventually.

I just started targeting bass the year before last. Until then about the only fishing I did was for a few weeks in the Fall for Salmon in the harbors. I have a nice little lake close by that gives me GREAT ENJOYMENT on many evenings. I can be there in about 20 minutes and have a nice night pulling in quite a few nice bass. I'd hate to have that go away. If keeping this available means giving up a few months of enjoyment, SO BE IT ! It just gives me something to look forward to in the spring ! By the time April comes around I really start getting excited and looking forward to the opener just a few weeks away. 

I guess to answer your question DJ, I don't have a problem with a closed season ! It's a simple as that.


----------



## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

dj, in one of your post you stated something to the fact that you wanted to see what you might be up against. Happy?


----------



## Water Wolves (Jan 20, 2002)

*"Oh, God. When is this thread gonna end? Bass eggs. Sheesh! Kids are starving in West Virginia and we're worried about bass eggs that have been eaten by predatory fish since the Pleiostene era...."*









*Kimmel, have you ever considered stamp collecting?*

WW


----------



## Steely-Head (Dec 2, 2001)

Up until someone on this site pointed it out to me last year, I had thought the season WAS catch and release from 12/31 to the opener. It is quite misleading in the guide...."It is unlawful for an angler to TAKE or attempt to TAKE a species when out of season". I had assumed that meant you just couldnt keep them (TAKE them home). After a quick call to the DNR it turned out that "take" meant catching in general, not taking them home. Oh well, I never kept them anyways, but now I am informed. I think it is a shame they word it in such a confusing way, since after discussing it with many anglers in my area I have found that they interpreted it the same way I did.


----------



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jpollman _
> *I'm not about to go through and read all of the scientific data presented here. In my mind, the argument for a closed season is good enough for me. I believe that pulling bass off of their beds DOES allow for predation of the eggs. Sure, this is ALWAYS going to happen naturally. That is why fish lay so many eggs. Only a small percentage of them ever reach maturity. If we allow the fish to be pulled from their beds and therefore reduce the number of eggs it is going to affect the population eventually.*


Thanks for starting the poll, jpollman. I was thinking about that. Your statement above is actually pretty good except for two points. Biologically, you are correct that pulling bass off beds allows some predation. You are correct it happens naturally too. (Actually, weather will have the most effect on how many total beds are successful or not by far, though.) You are correct that bass lay so many eggs - they are extremely adaptable and successful. You are correct - only a small percentage ever reach maturity.

Your last statement is the only one where your emotions take over. The same scientific data/studies that show some increased predation in some beds where bass are caught from also show that there is no direct correlation to a negative effect on overall bass recruitment - i.e. the new bass added to the population. For the very reason you stated above - "that is why fish lay so many eggs."

We've all told each other things for years and even read them in some outdoors magazines. Example: "the sun hurts the fishes eyes" "they don't have eyelids" "which is why they do _____" - fill in the blank. I've had so many anglers tell me this over the years, yet according to scientists, this is not true with bass. They have rods and cones in their eyes. It's been a while, but I believe what I remember is that they can control the amount of light entering their eyes by lengthening the rods and/or cones in the back of their eyes. The lesson is the adaptability.

Yes, they dont have eyelids, but that doesnt automatically mean therefore, that the sun will hurt their eyes. The behavior some anglers think bass exhibit because they are avoiding the light that hurts their eyes, is really related to their predatorial nature. They spend a lot of time hiding in dark areas because they want an advantage over their prey, which they gain by looking from shade into lit areas.

There are so many old wives tales out there about fish and bass in particular that a lot of anglers limit their success by giving in to them. Which is the other point I want to mention  you say you dont want to read all the scientific data, but that is exactly what can keep an angler from becoming a better angler quicker.

Understand your prey. Know the biology as accurately and as well as possible. There are reasons why 10% of the anglers catch 90% of the fish. Fishing is great in that is allows pretty much anyone to enjoy some level of the sport. You may not want to make it too much work. But if you want to become a really good bass angler (angler in general too), you should learn as much as you can about myths verses reality  using the science available AND what you see with your own eyes over time too.

I respect your opinion about the argument for a closed season but who are you getting that argument from? The 90% who catch 10% or the 10% who catch 90%? Actually, neither is really the right answer anyway. You should be getting it from the scientific data too  mainly the findings of studies if you dont want to read full studies. I dont blame anyone for that.

The studies are boring, long-winded and often confusing. But you can get a good consensus from the findings and you dont even have to order and read the studies, you can just call the biologists and ask them what the findings and recommendations are. No matter what, I always ask if bass recruitment was affected when Im asking about bass studies.

Ive done just this many times. Ive used a lot of study data and findings to directly improve my fishing success over the years. I have files upstairs of different types of studies and technical reports. I have many pages of notes from fisheries biologist interviews.

Im not listening to the argument from anglers who havent read studies and interviewed biologists. They are just repeating the same old stories that have been passed down for years by other anglers. Of course, we all know perception is reality so maybe Im really only trying to change perception, but my difficulty is it is many persons reality. Change is a tough thing, especially when youve thought it was reality for a long time.

I not only believe I dont have blinders, I feel I have some of the widest open eyes out there and I know there are actually quite a few guys out there who feel the same way. I have no idea how many there are on this site, but your poll idea might help a little. I also think it would be great to give our economy another boost and keep more of our angling money here in Michigan. I dont see anything wrong with that. Just the opposite.

It wasnt that long ago that the fisheries people in Indiana asked the fisheries people in Michigan to go along with the rest of the country and do just that so their limited and heavily pressured waters arent pressured even more by Michigan bass anglers getting an early start.


----------



## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

Sooner or later you will just plain old wear me down. Not just yet.



> The same scientific data/studies that show some increased predation in some beds where bass are caught from also show that there is no direct correlation to a negative effect on overall bass recruitment


Nope. You haven't presented this data yet. One study that had too small of sample to show anything if I remember right. Why do you think that Ohio is going to need 4 or 5 years to even start discussing findings?

One more thing you might want to view with a different perception:



> It wasnt that long ago that the fisheries people in Indiana asked the fisheries people in Michigan to go along with the rest of the country and do just that so their limited and heavily pressured waters arent pressured even more by Michigan bass anglers getting an early start.


So what is it? Do anglers affect spawning success or not? If not, then why is Indiana worried about pressure from Michigan anglers. According to you, it won't hurt recruitment anyway. Shouldn't they just be appreciative to the boost in the economy?


----------



## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

A response to DJKimmel from a DNR biologist from another website:

In your honest opinion, would we be doing harm by not having a season? In my honest opinion, no one knows what the end result would be of a radical change in the current bass fishing season on Lake St. Clair. There are factors that suggest that bass populations MIGHT NOT be negatively affected (such as performance of the fishery over the last 15 years, size of the waterbody and connecting rivers, proportion of water in Canadian and tribal jurisdiction, catch and release ethic among bass anglers, etc). There are also factors that suggest that bass populations COULD BE negatively affected (predominance of smallmouth bass in the system, results of peer-reviewed, published, studies of effects on fishing bass on beds, presence of efficient egg and fry predators like round goby, high interest level (fishing pressure) for bass fishing). So the issue really becomes one of risk assessment: how risky would it be to open the bass season year around? Maybe it wouldnt be extremely risky, but just a little risky. Theres a lot of uncertainty involved, and that makes it really difficult to assess the level of risk involved. One thing that is clear though, is that the present smallmouth bass population in the St. Clair system is an extremely valuable recreational, economic, and ecological resource. Therefore, I think that its not too surprising that fishery managers arent quick to make changes that MIGHT (risk) negatively impact it.

Is this one of those multitudes of biologists that think there should be an early season? Heres another post by DJ:

"If you truly believe that bed-fishing is bad, then you should not bed fish no matter what your excuse is. I know several very good bass anglers who never bed fish and they also have enough knowledge to know how to avoid 'accidently' doing so."


> _Originally posted by djkimmel _
> and another post:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

Amen, Clay.


----------



## Jim S. (May 5, 2002)

DJKimmel,

Some questions for you since you didn't respond to my PM, or you never received it.

1. Exactly what qualifies you to speak for Michigan's fisheries biologists? Are you a fisheries biologist? Are you a scientific researcher? Do you have a PhD? Do you even know what it takes to earn a PhD? Are you even a biologist? On your website you state that you're a medical data analyst. I have been in academic scientific research since 1984 and from where I stand, a medical data analyst hardly qualifies as an expert on LSC bass biology. Just because you read a few select articles and talked to some fisheries biologist doesn't make you even close to being qualified to say that the fishery will not be harmed.

2. I'm curious as to what lures you were throwing for "pike, perch and walleye" the past 10 years during Spring on LSC? Half-ounce daredevles? No. 5 (and larger) Mepps spinners? Crawler harnesses? Perch jigs on 4 lb. line? Being a hard core bass angler (and owning a Ranger bass boat...isn't that why you bought it? and fishing tournaments makes you a hard core bass angler) were you pitching live bait? Are you disappointed or are you happy when you "accidently" hook a smallie? Give the anglers on this site some credit; you were/are flat out targeting bass out of season.

3. What are you implying by the quote at the top of your website.?.."one machine cannot do the work of one extraordinary man". That you consider yourself an extraordinary man?!?! I've heard Nobel laureates speak and I work alongside a lot of MD's and PhD's here at UM who have massive egos but, I don't believe they would say out loud "I'm an extraordinary man". Please inform me exactly what makes you so extraordinary because I meet extraordinary men (and women) every day; they're also called loving, caring fathers (and mothers). 

IF the bass season on LSC is opened to C&R during Spring and it eventually destroys the fishery, I want you to accept ALL the blame and, reimburse the state of Michigan for the millions of dollars it will lose. If the bass fishing goes on unaffected then I'll be first in line to congratulate you. But what do you want to bet that if the fishery collapses, you'll say.."well, you don't have any scientific proof that it collapsed due to fishing pressure during the spawn".

Jim S.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"


----------



## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

> I prefer the approach of the Indiana biologist who told me there policy is that they would have to have very strong evidence of necessity before they would ever take away fishing opportunities from their citizens. Thanks for reading.


If you ask enough people someone will tell you what you want to believe.

Now a Big challenge, Post what you really want in Michigan in 5 sentences or less Mr Kimmel, that would impress all the readers of this thread.

Btw as far a Bass go what is you favorite lure or method.
I like Crankbaits and rigged worms, but the cranks never seem to produce much ever.

I think you'll find the membership here, more receiptive of conversation if you try and elaborate on other topics now and then.

I don't doubt your a very informed fishermen, but to be honest with you unless you engage in other topics as well you'll be as welcome as a sore tooth.
Just telling you what I have found to be true ( as a friend) in the past 4 plus yrs here.


----------



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

trout, I've already said what I want: legal catch and release of bass on all waters in Michigan outside of the catch and keep season. That's the only compromise I see as having a chance to pass and minimize the impact on our bass.

The crankbait is at the top of my list of tools for catching bass and has won more tournaments for me than any other single type of lure. Crankbaits will often produce larger bass than other lures from an area although maybe not as many. It probably isn't proper forum behavior to discuss this too much on this thread. I would talk about these kinds of topics a lot too as time allows.

I do plan on posting on this site on subjects that interest me or that I can think I can help on or learn something from. I have posted on several different topics on several of the different forums here already. My posts on those have been various lenths from short to long depending on what was necessary.

This thread is a VERY important topic to me personally and a few guys posting their own long messages are making it necessary to continue to explain myself. It is a complex topic.

I will be disappointed if some guys start to think I'm just a know-it-all or hot wind or have a big ego or only here to ram one topic through. The risk is worth it for this topic. I can try to post shorter messages and spend more time editing to be less wordy, but they will still be long.

I appreciate your advice. I understand your advice, but even you made a comment about asking enough people. Shows what I already know - I have to post a number of different people saying the same thing to show that is not accurate even though some people will agree with what you said anyway - that I have asked enough people to get the answer I was looking for, but maybe some will agree with me. I can ask biologists in ~44 states and get the same answer. That's pretty good numbers. Definitely a majority. It's harder to find biologists that will say a season is necessary.


----------



## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

> trout, I've already said what I want: legal catch and release of bass on all waters in Michigan outside of the catch and keep season. That's the only compromise I see as having a chance to pass and minimize the impact on our bass.


What is more important in that last sentence? 'a chance to pass' or 'minimize the impact on our bass'? I think that you make it clear in another post on LSC.net:



> Maybe we'll never have enough of us agree that the resource could handle preseason bass tournaments under permit being able to bring bass into weigh-ins as happens in almost the whole country. I know the Law Division is against this in Michigan and I realize that realistically, there are still not enough of us willing to attend meetings and write letters, while many more of the general public would be resentful that this would probably be a bad idea in the near future anyway. For that reason, it may be wise to not push for this, but that means I can also not afford to lose any more of our already short, short season, doesn't it?


If you truly want to 'minimize the impact on bass' the real answer would be to obey the laws that are currently on the books and encourage others to do so. FYI - that is the current law so I don't know why you want to refer to preseason bass fishing as being "technically illegal".

You seem to take my posts personal, but to the best of my knowledge, only one comment was directed personally. You set yourself up as a 'logical man' in a way to demean another member's post and had my reply to your logic coming, if you ask me. Mostly I just point out the incongruencies of your argument. Like the Indiana DNR not wanting pressure on their bedding fish. (BTW - You have conveniently ignored my last post.)

Personally, I believe you would be better served by sharing some of that vast bass fishing knowledge first and meriting some respect before trying to further your agenda. Do you think guys like Ralf, Ray, Paul . . . Etc have trouble getting support for their ideas around here? If this topic is really that important to you (and God knows I believe it is), then I believe you made a tactical error in the way that you approached it. Where I believe those guys really want to be a part of this community and deserve my respect, I believe that you really want to preach your agenda to this community.


----------



## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

BTW- 
This is more of the stuff that I would love to see and had me very excited at one time about you joining the site:

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=23501


----------



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

This is my response to your previous post. I can't always post immediately since I don't have a secretary to type this for me as has been suggested. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks it was strange to tell me to break the law on one side of a lake so I won't on the other. What about Canadian kid's legacy? Someone only cares about his own kids legacy? I was pointing out some flawed thinking from someone who was saying he's smart and I'm not because he knows how to get a PhD. That has nothing to do with this issue which I will respond to below to him. You guys are providing me with something to respond to that others can choose to read or not. Maybe you shouldn't take things so personally either, but you are trying repeatedly to take things out of larger context and prove points that aren't there. You may succeed. You may not. I still see only, what, 4 guys who are coming back at me out of 100s of reads. One obviously does not like me just because I'm a 'lawbreaking' tournament angler. One is offended because I dare to try and present information as if I'm smart too. I'm not totally sure of all the reasons, but I've dealt with this before. You will always find similar personalities in a large group of people when you choose to speak out. I don't intend to personally offend anyone. I asked a question because I wanted to know and was told I was baiting. I tried to make peace and explain myself and things went downhill from there, again with just a few guys. I don't count the bored guys who aren't interested but still take the time to post anyway... The problem with written text is that it is easy to read into and get the wrong idea. I was not baiting, but I can see how people would think I was. I know you can go back and take another short quote and try to prove I said I was. That's up to you. Sometimes I may sound differently than I intend and I can't blame people for reaching the conclusions they do. Sometimes, I've reacted back because someone else reacted. I don't really want to do that. I also know part of the time, some people will take me wrong because they are determined to and I can't do much about that. They have the right to post too. I respond if it appears necessary. If other guys would post specific questions on this topic, I would answer them. I would imagine the same few guys that are already doing so would then do their best to contradict. That is somewhat frustrating sure just like having you keep taking quotes from other posts out of context to color me bad when I'm not totally sure why you are doing it since you have shown to be somewhat in favor of the actual topic in the past. I can only think you are offended for some reason or threatened by me personally, by my approach. Of course, I didn't intend that, but you have to expect, as I do, that if you try to present a position, it will be countered. That is not personal. Anyway, heres what I wrote to your previous post:


TBone, I dont want to wear you down. Im glad you are on the other site too because I have some interesting things I will post there soon. It does bother me a little that you are taking the time to pull out short quotes from much longer issues from that site to try and confuse the issue, but that wont change the things Ive read or been told by biologists. I also know Im no more a lawbreaker than anyone else on this site who considers himself or herself a good citizen.

Ive been outspoken about outdoor issues for over 20 years. I sometimes take some heat. I can pull out small parts of long issues and twist them one way or the other too, but it does not change the issue or the facts. Many Michigan bass anglers want more fishing opportunity. The majority of the study data supports that goal.

No single person will get things exactly their way with this issue. There arent enough anglers on this site to tip the balance one way or the other, but there are enough for it to be worth all my time to pass along what I can. Im not totally disagreeing with you personally. I will respond to specific topics you or anyone else brings up. I hope I dont turn off people to this issue just because I personally happen to put up detailed posts. I believe in laying out all the information and people can decide if they are interested enough to bother reading it or not.

The Ohio biologist involved in the goby study told me that they have a very difficult time on Erie determining smallmouth numbers and effects visually. They use creel census and other feedback directly from anglers to determine changes in the smallmouth population. There are accepted formulas for doing this. It will be 4 or 5 years from the beginning of the goby study before the majority of the bass spawned last year on Erie are having a major impact on the fishery. That is when creel census and other methods can measure any changes.

They will also have to factor in other major factors at that time too such as cold springs or warm springs; late spawns, especially with a cool summer; forage changes; Or (on Erie  major) how much strong wind they had or lack of, and the affect those things may have had.

Gobies have been abundant in Erie since 1998 and so far there is no apparent negative change in smallmouth fishing on Erie, but since they dont have structured measurements from those years that would meet their study parameters, those years will not be used in this particular study.

As far as Indiana is concerned, they have nowhere near the water we do (also no closed season), but they have a few northern waters with Syracuse/Wawasee Lakes being the main trouble spot, where they have complaints from Indiana anglers in general about too many Michigan anglers coming onto what little water they have because Michigan wont open its own season. That is one reason.

The big reason is that there are some very influential persons who live on the lakes and have complained about the fishing and tournaments in general on THEIR lake. This has been going on for years.

Because of the complaints, the Indiana DNR had to do something. They did surveys on license plates on trailers in ramps and found that the majority are still Indiana, not Michigan. Doesnt mean a lot of anglers will stop complaining but it gives them some ammo. It also didnt change things regarding the lake association complaints, so they designed a new tournament permitting policy as a response to some of the complaints. Social, not biological. I dont blame them for wanting us to have our own season so we can manage our issues and they can manage theirs.

Of course Im very interested in lake association issues. Anyone who uses public access should be. If you have never gone to a lake association meeting when public access is involved, you dont know how concerned you should be. That is why I went to almost every public meeting and spoke during the public access forums Michigan had a few years ago run by Senator Dunaskiss. I also spoke at the Capitol hearings. I strongly support the MDNR in public access issues so I watch anything that involves any kind of public access and lake associations. I wish more anglers would get involved in that issue. Its very important to their future, but that is another whole set of issues.

So to answer your questions in summary, the Indiana issue had very little to do with effects of any additional fishing pressure and a LOT to do with access to and ownership of the waters. They want to provide angling opportunities on their limited waters to Indiana citizens mainly and have us do the same for our anglers. They do not want to say Michigan bass anglers arent welcome, they just dont want them all.


----------



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

The quote from the other website that ESOX posted by the MDNR biologist was a very fair and honest post that I understand. I am not surprised and not unhappy that some of our biologists arent too quick make changes that MIGHT negatively impact it. Nothing wrong with that. I want our resources managed scientifically. Not all our biologists are as conservative or questioning either.

No doubt there are questions for many persons about this issue. I dont have any more major questions I need answered personally to not support the change Im asking for  legal catch and release bass fishing from January 1 until the opening of the catch and keep season. There will be more new factors in the future that affect our fishery. I have no doubt of that. I will support any change in the future when and if it becomes necessary. I know of no presently existing factor that will change my mind about a statewide change in bass regulations as Ive described.

I have no problem with someone who doesnt believe in bedfishing as a personal ethical decision. I can respect that, but I expect that same person to respect my decision to do so if it cant be shown Im harming the resource. That is what Im talking about too when I say Im not happy that some anglers and hunters spend their time condemning others who dont do things the same way they do as being unsportsmanlike. I also dont like being told Im unsportsmanlike from hypocrites. Who does?

I can legally catch bass off of beds for up to 2 months each year in Michigan and on another site I was being told that I wasnt a sportsman because I bedfish sometimes by guys who dont bedfish before opening day, but DO bedfish after opening day. My point was you are either against something or not against something. Pretty simple to understand. We were specifically talking about bedfishing or not and some anglers were trying to say I shouldnt do it, but it was okay for them to do it under certain circumstances.

You can tell me you think Im a lawbreaker because I catch bass before season, but Im NOT a lawbreaker if I let the bass go and I did NOT intend to catch the bass. You DONT know that I intended to catch the bass, you only think you know. I can say the same thing about anyone else every time I see them fishing in the spring and catch a bass. All I have to say is I BELIEVE you intended to catch the bass. You are then just as guilty as I am. Thats the great thing about the present regulation: Its purely based on perception and bias (unless youre a mindreader). How would anyone like it if suddenly some people decide they know your intentions all the time and go around calling you a lawbreaker?

I also feel it is important to educate anglers about how deep bass do bed on some lakes. I believe you can make a personal choice to not fish bedding fish on purpose, but you should know that there are bass bedding deeper than you think so you may be catching bedding bass anyway before and after opening day despite fishing deeper.

I have observed bass on beds in Michigan in as much as 13 feet of water. I do happen to know a number of incredibly talented bass anglers that are definitely not your average. They avoid doing what they dont want to and do exactly what they do want to most of the time because they are extremely knowledgeable.

I will stand by my statement that if you truly dont believe in bedfishing, you should do your best to not do so. If you are a bass angler of general skills fishing shallower than about 15 feet during April through June, on many lakes in Michigan, you are probably catching bass off beds and may not know it. I see anglers saying they dont catch bedding bass while they are catching them without even knowing it.

When a fishing partner and I won a state northern tournament in June 2000, I marked the bass on beds in water from 7 ½ to 12 feet on Monday and Tuesday and then caught the same fish from the same places during the tournament on Saturday. The reason I targeted them is because bigger bass tend to spawn deeper than smaller bass. There are a lot of bass spawning deep on many clear lakes now, especially the Great Lakes.

Ive been told and have read for years that most bass bed shallow just like everyone else and I dont doubt that most bass anglers believe just that. Shallow is a relative term and means different things on different waters. I have even had some fisheries biologist doubt me about my claims on bass bedding depths, but I have two eyes AND an underwater camera.

Most bass anglers dont like to fish very deep any time of year. Im talking about most anglers when I say you will catch bedding bass, not those few top anglers who dominate tournament circuits that I was talking about in a past post. They do know exactly what they are doing most of the time, which is why they are in the top 5% of bass anglers in tournament competition.

I can catch what Im targeting most of the time, but on a lake such as St. Clair where theres a few smallies anywhere, I will catch some no matter what. On an inland lake, when I spring crappie fishing with a small jig and bobber in the backs of shallow bays, Ill catch crappie, but I will also catch some bass because they are cruising the same places. I may not catch as many as I would if I specifically targeted them, but I would bet every time I catch a bass, even with a bobber, because Im in a bass boat, some guys will still say they KNOW Im targeting bass. Thats bias. That is the reason I will say that: like everyone else, there are legal fish to catch in the spring and I have a fishing license so I have the same rights to fish as everyone else. If I catch a fish that isnt in season, I will let it go. There is nothing illegal about that.

What if I catch 20 fish and five are bass, while someone else catches 3 fish and 1 is a bass on a spring day? Neither one of us is definitely breaking a law. One is just catching more fish than the other. Thats not illegal. The only thing proved by someone who says he hardly ever catches a bass in the spring might just be that he isnt a very good angler, not that he isnt targeting bass and I am. I do catch a lot of fish of all types. I like to fish. I like to catch fish and I work hard at it at being a good angler.

Thats one of the bad things about a regulation that is almost completely enforced by a personal judgment call, not by hard evidence. If I have a bass in my livewell in the spring in Michigan, Ive broken the law. If catch a bass and let it go immediately, some other person has to decide if he/she believes I purposely tried to catch that bass. Of course, since Im in a bass boat some people will automatically decide I must have. Thats bias.


----------



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

Jim S, I check the bottom of this forum at least once per day to see if I have any private messages. It says that I have 0, so I have not checked beyond that. If I knew I had received one from you, I would have replied. I normally use my AOL email account ([email protected]) to converse one-to-one with people.

1-Im not speaking FOR MDNR fisheries biologists or any other biologist or any organization. Fisheries biologists can be as long-winded as I am and will present things in a different way than a non-biologist. Im speaking for my desired goal of legal catch and release bass fishing in Michigan from January 1 until the regular season opens.

Im using the information I have been told by biologists to help my position. Im not a fisheries biologist. I dont have a PhD (neither do many fisheries biologists). I dont need a PhD anymore than most other people. I dont believe you need a PhD or know how to get a PhD to understand most things. Do you realize that you sound like you are saying anyone on this site who doesnt have a PhD cant understand these topics?

Im a computer and medical industry professional and manager of our subsidiaries business information. The bulk of my non-fishing income since 1989 has come from analyzing and reporting on large amounts of financial and medical data for company use and to government agencies.

I am also a good bass angler and tournament angler, part-time outdoor writer, past Michigan BASS Chapter Federation environmental coordinator for 10 years, previous long-time member of the MUCC fisheries committee and outdoors/environmental issue activist for over 20 years. I have studied, through reading full technical reports, attending seminars, and through verbal and written correspondence with fisheries biologists and researchers, aquatic plant managers and researchers, environmental professionals, genetics researchers, dam and public power operators, soil conservation experts, drain commissioners, lawyers and law officers, politicians, and sewage industry professionals on many topics surrounding clean water, wetlands, habitat and fish biology and management, among other things, for those 20+ years.

Im not saying the fishery wont be harmed. Im saying I strongly believe the fishery wont be harmed and then Im providing information as to why I believe that. I could ask any of you to justify all your actions and statements too and your qualifications to say Im wrong or clarify that you are just stating your opinion based on much less information than I have taken in on this specific topic. I think most people can and will decide for themselves about that. I will address specific statements I see that I believe are wrong and/or misleading.

Here is a list of some of the fisheries persons I have learned from over the years through seminars, presentation, mutual committee involvement, article collaboration (theirs and mine), fishing, interviews and repeated discussions on specific studies and general bass biology and management:
Gary Towns MDNR fisheries biologist (fb)
Todd Grischke MDNR fb (formerly MUCC fisheries)
John Schrouder MDNR fb
Ron Spitler MDNR fb  retired (now Michigan BASS federation environmental director)
Jim Schneider MDNR fisheries research biologist  retired (now at MSU fisheries)
Mike Herman MDNR fb
Bob Haas MDNR fb
Mike Thomas MDNR fb
John Robertson former MDNR fisheries chief
John Trimberger regional MDNR fb  retired
Doug Jester MDNR fb  retired
Ken Dodge MDNR fb  retired
Steve Quinn Infisherman fb
Mark Stephens MSU fb
Gene Gilliland Oklahoma fisheries research biologist
Roger Knight OH fisheries research biologist
Nick Nichols AL F&W Assistant fisheries chief - research
Bob Larantis PA fb
Stuart Shipman IN fb
Frank Fiss TN fb
Bonny Laflin KY fb
Bruce Shupp BASS national environmental director (former fisheries chief of NY)

More than a few and there are more. These are just the ones I can remember right now. A few years ago, BASS invited every state to send a fish biologist to the BASSMASTER Classic for the week. Every state federation environmental director attended also. We spent all week talking with fisheries biologists from all over the country in meetings, at lunch, dinner. It was an interesting week. I would have a hard time listing all the similar activities Ive done over the years.

It doesnt matter so much if Im qualified as much as it matters if the biologists are qualified anyway and if I have reported what they have told me (or told anyone willing to take the time to read what they have published) truthfully. I think they are qualified and I dont lie.

If you want to see every possible side to see how biased I am or not, or how much Im presenting just the parts to support my position, then you will have to interview these same people and read the same studies and reports yourself. They have not all agreed with each other or me on every point. When someone says I have blinders on or am only reporting the information that helps my position, I just have to remind them that they themselves complain about my long posts, so Im trying to keep them as short as possible by reporting the overall consensus nationally among bass management biologists which is a closed bass season is not scientifically supported. Thats the strong majority.

2-I dont really need to respond to this one much more than I already have since you already KNOW what I was doing. I will say Im happy when I catch any fish. I love to catch fish. I will give you credit for being a psychic (or just helping to prove my point that some anglers are biased against anyone in a bass boat). I happen to be lucky enough to catch lots of all kinds of fish all year. Ive even won a pike tournament during a May on Muskegon Lake a few years ago (first place and big pike).

3-For cryin out loud. I like the quote. I like quotes that imply the importance of my fellow humans over all else (things) and their own intelligence and ingenuity. I dont believe one person is more valuable than another for example, because one has a PhD verses a Masters or 140 IQ verses a 120 or Nobel laureate verses a loving, caring father. It may be the quote was written by the author with people in mind who do one extraordinary thing or who are better at something than most other people, but I prefer to look at it as a testament to the special ness of humankind.

I also think quotes about being extraordinary or trying to excel remind all of us about what it good in trying to make things better. I could tell you what makes me extraordinary just as well as I could tell you what makes pretty much everyone I know extraordinary  my mom, my in-laws, my wife, my brothers and sisters, my nieces and nephews, my godchildren, my friends and my co-workers.

As far as credit or blame. I dont want credit. I just want to fish. No one person will have enough pull to single-handedly make this issue go one way or the other, although one determined person can have a significant impact at times. Bass fishing may get better. It may get worse. It can and will get better or worse year-to-year with or without a legal catch and release season. Thats normal. If it makes you feel better, you can plan on blaming me just in case.

Healthy fisheries rarely collapse and very rarely due to fishing pressure alone. Especially a fishery the size of St. Clair with lots of present catch and release fishing even during the keep season. I am asking for a statewide change though, not just St. Clair. We have a lot of great water. The fishing can and should be spread out across them.


----------



## jeremy L (Sep 19, 2002)

i read the whole thread tonight, i must have been very bored. 

Anyways, here are a few thoughts that have come to mined.

1. If everyone fished for bass, there are gonna be some affects for the worse on the fish pop, no matter what u do!

2. If u have tons of people fishing for bass before they spawn, there are gonna be more bass that die before they spawn, reasons, fish shallowing hooks and anglers tearing them out the of fish, in turn killing the fish, such as what happens durning april up here while fishing with bombers for walleye, u hook a smallie every other cast until and just after dark and some of thos fish get the hooks in the mouth deep, killing them as we tear it out.

3. why do u think the dnr has a size limit and closed season? because somewhere/sometime it was found out that bass will not have a high population if not for the rules.

4. Bass on Beds bite just about anything. Ex. A local river. while fishing for pike in mid may, we hooked a smallie, with half its top fin missing, on a 3/4 ounce cleo. next day come back and in the same spot on a bucktail number 5 mepps, we hook a bass with a missing half top fin, about a week later, same spot, same bass on a big husky jerk, then on the opener about a week later, we caught it again, but it was a lot less fat, spawned. After that we never caugh it again, which leads me to belive it was protecting its bed, which makes them easy to catch because they hit anything that looks like it may put the eggs in danger.

Those are just some thoughts, but now i need to go rest my fingers


----------



## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

> I can only think you are offended for some reason or threatened by me personally, by my approach.


Nope. I just don't want misinformation any more than you. You have used the word "proof" several times in conjunction with studies and affect on spawning and recruitment. That there was "proof" that fishing wouldn't harm recruitment. I just wanted to make sure that it was obvious that it wasn't so. 

I believe that most of your arguments and your motives have been exposed to a degree that I am satisfied. Unless there are new false claims and circular arguments that need to be addressed, I am done now. The defense rests.


----------



## jeremy L (Sep 19, 2002)

djkimmel, u said that zebras have helped the bass in saginaw bay because it has made the water clear and such. Now, u must not fish for much else because if u did, u would know that the perch pop has crashed, due in large part to zebras and gobies eating eggs. The way u sound, u like zebra mussels, gobies, please clearfiy.


----------



## Ruler (Nov 30, 2001)

HOLY COW MAN!!! From somebody who generally types too much, please proof-read your posts and edit them to be as concise as possible while still making your point.

I didn't read hardly anything in this thread (because I don't have an extra 3 hours), but when you write an 8.5 page post, then post a 4.5 pager 3 minutes later, you couldn't possibly have done too much editing.

Just a suggestion.


----------



## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

It's a complex issue Ruler . . . One that would benefit in a drastic overnight shift in regulations . . . just like most complex situations. Where is that sarcasm font?


----------



## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I still don't understand how the transplanting of wild fish that were the result of a successful spawn under the protection of the current regulations can qualify as a stocking program. I guess maybe it qualifies halfway, in the water recieving the fish, but the fish are transplanted are WILD fish.










Hmm does this sign look familiar? Who is it that posted these signs? The DNR? Now let's read the sign carefully..........


----------



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

Jeremy, I dont like zebra mussels or gobies or any exotic. Introducing a new species into a system is not an action anyone should want to happen. Natural systems evolve over time. Introducing exotics disrupts that evolution. Zebra mussels have been studied quite a bit. Gobies have not been studied a lot yet.

In the case of zebra mussels, they have cost quite a bit of money for various reasons (water intake clogging), but the original thought was that fish populations would collapse because the zebras would eat all the food for small water life. This is still being watched and should be.

The zebras affect on fish did not happen as quickly and severely as originally thought. They may have actually helped improve fishing for smallmouths on the Great Lakes. They helped clear up the water. Since smallmouths are sight feeders, the effect has helped make the smallies more successful.

Perch on Saginaw Bay were in trouble and an issue of concern long before this. I sat on the committees that worked with the MDNR to buy out the commercial fishermen and work on solutions to the issue. That was some time ago.

I had not heard from the MDNR that zebra mussels had caused a collapse of perch on Saginaw Bay. That would be sad if it is true. I definitely havent seen anything about gobies eating the perch eggs as a cause of a collapse. If you have actual information to post about this from the MDNR, that would be helpful to know.

By the way, I was told by an MDNR fisheries researcher that perch are eating zebra mussels. Also, gobies on the St. Clair system were previously observed in a quick study of stomach samples to be getting over 60% of their food intake from zebras.


----------



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

The following are fisheries biologist interviews I have performed so far. A selection of states north and south, open and closed outside of Michigan. I have some from Michigan too, but I have to submit some of that info to the biologists for their approval first as a courtesy. I printed the main information from each interview that pertains to this topic of having a legal catch and release bass season from January 1 until the regular opener. Any of you that are reading, but not posting, if you are interested in the topic - pro or con - please take a moment just to vote in the other thread with the poll. Thanks.


OHIO
John Navarro  Ohio DNR Fisheries
No closed season

DJ: Why doesnt the State of Ohio have a closed bass season?

Navarro: We feel (any regulation we dont have is) not effective if we dont have the regulation. We dont like to tell people they cant fish (without a good reason).
___________
Roger Knight  Ohio DNR Sandusky Fish Research Unit fisheries biologist
DJ: Why doesnt the State of Ohio have a closed bass season?

Knight: Weve reviewed all the available data. There is no biological data to support it. No studies to show this is necessary.

DJ: If you are reading the same data nationally as every other state, why would any other state have a closed season?

Knight: We would argue that most states with seasons have seasons for social reasons, not biological.

DJ: What about Ridgeways studies in Ontario into fishing for spawning bass?

Knight: They have more to be concerned about in their shield lakes than we do (about our lakes). Our bass mature earlier and have greater fecundity (egg production). It is higher than bass in Ontario. Wind is our major factor, not angling pressure (on Erie).

DJ: What about gobies on Erie?

Knight: We are taking a lot of heat from some anglers who want something done about gobies. We need to look at it more. Gobies became abundant in Erie in 1998. Since young-of-year (yoy) bass are hard to study on Erie, we will only see any results of our study in approximately 4 years in harvest-size bass. It takes about 4 years to grow a keeper bass.

DJ: What do you think about the impact on spawning bass by angling?

Knight: We want to work more with tournaments on releasing bass and study tournament weigh in impact. Relocation is our only issue with spawn fishing. It depends on how many beds actually are impacted. Rigdeway has found that dominant bass get the best sites. Its possible that many dominant bass spawn deeper out of anglers normal reach and are enough to sustain the fishery. We will be very careful about making our decisions that take away fishing opportunity. Wed have to be much more sure  have more information from new studies  before we do.

ALABAMA__________
Nick Nichols - Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries, Fisheries Technical Staff Assistant Chief (Research)
No closed season

DJ: Why doesnt the State of Alabama have a closed bass season?

Nichols: We dont have any evidence that it is needed. We dont do anything to limit bass by a closed season or (to limit) tournaments. We have plenty of spawn activity in reservoirs and rivers. The real choke point is fall recruitment  the number of bass making it through their first winter. We can have a great spawn and still end up with poor recruitment. We can have a terrible spawn and end up with great recruitment depending on fall conditions.


TENNESSEE__________
Frank Fiss - Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency Fisheries biologist
No closed season

DJ: Why doesnt the State of Tennessee have a closed bass season?

Fiss: There is no indication (in study literature nationally) that angling mortality has anything to do with bass recruitment. The environment is the major factor. This has been supported by rigorous testing. The critical period is late summer. Reproduction is not the major factor in recruitment. It is water conditions and lower water levels. Its a habitat issue.

DJ: If all biologists are reading the same papers and studies, and know the same information, how would you explain why Tennessee can have no closed season, but Michigan would have a closed season?

Fiss: The social aspect is just different here.

_________
Bonny Laflin - Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency Fisheries biologist

DJ: Why doesnt the State of Tennessee have a closed bass season?

Laflin: A closed bass season does absolutely no good whatsoever. Bass are so prolific. Arent your bass in Michigan still spawning when you season opens? Its hard to see how a fixed date in May each year would provide much protection for an event that varies year-to-year.


PENNSYLVANIA__________
Bob Lorantas  Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission Bureau of Fisheries biologist
Recently redesigned bass season:
Lakes (NOT ERIE) Jan 1  Apr 12 and Nov 1  Dec 31 OPEN 4 bass, 15;
Apr 13  Jun 14 No Harvest  CATCH AND IMMEDIATE RELEASE ONLY, it is unlawful for an angler to cast repeatedly into a clearly visible bass spawning nest or redd in an effort to catch or take bass;
Jun 15  Oct 31 OPEN 6 bass, 12
Rivers and Streams: same as inland lakes except summer OPEN season ends Sep 30
They also have some special regs on Conservation lakes and Big Bass lakes

ERIE  NO closed season although a higher size limit is in effect during the spawn season

DJ: Why do you have the present bass season in Pennsylvania?

Lorantas: We have some lakes with growth rate and productivity issues. The regulations hold back the harvest of bass a year or two to increase density so keepers end up being 3 or 4 years old. Our previous bass season had a grey area on allowing catch and release during the spring. Fishing was occurring, although technically illegal, so we decided we needed to do something.

DJ: Do you have the season because you have evidence it is biologically necessary?

Lorantas: The jury is still out in Pennsylvania on how targeting spawning bass affects the bass population. We just took away the grey area. We are monitoring young of year (yoy) bass (two years of data so far) on some test lakes. Production has bounced around  probably due to our drought in our state. Smallmouths do better under drought in our streams though so they have probably been helped.

Lorantas: We could find no evidence of an effect of bedfishing for bass (in the past). We set up focus groups and performed opinion surveys. We did literature searches and models of various populations. We modeled all the options anglers suggested to reach a consensus. We also followed the work of Jim Schneider on your Michigan catch and release study. I consider Jim an exemplary fisheries biologist.

DJ: Why is Erie different?

Lorantas: Erie is separate with no closed season. It has a high size limit during the spawn season although we are probably opening the regular season during the spawn (similar to your Michigan opening day). The level of fishing (on Erie) appears to be such that there is no diminishment (in bass populations) due to fishing. Bass are prolific as ever, but we are concerned about any impact of gobies.

INDIANA__________
Stuart Shipman  Indiana DNR fisheries biologist
No closed season

DJ: Why doesnt the State of Indiana have a closed bass season?

Shipman: We have researched the topic and havent documented a need for a closed season. There is no harvest during the spawn that affects recruitment.

DJ: In the past, the Indiana DNR had asked Michigan to open up its own bass season and keep anglers in Michigan during the spring. Why?

Shipman: We had complaints for Indiana anglers and lake property owners about too many out of state anglers crowding our lakes and access sites. We studied the situation and determined that the majority of our users are still Hoosiers.

DJ: What about your new tournament permit policy and Michigan anglers holding those on northern Indiana lakes?

Shipman: We were mandated by the legislature to look at tournaments. This issue mainly resulted from vocal and active petitioning for a permit process from Syracuse/Wawasee Lakes for group activities. A permit process to limit group activities was created under our boating rules through the Division of Water (public access).


----------



## jeremy L (Sep 19, 2002)

the indiana biologist said that people down there are tried of the amount of people on there lakes, access, etc. in the spring. I would have loved to ask all people who said that if they fish for kings. 

That statement really gets me POed because there are many many people from in indiana that come up into michigan for kings, browns, steelhead, etc. If i remember right indiana doesn't plant bass, so when out of state anglers go down there, they catch "wild" bass. When they come up here and catch most browns, steelhead, and kings, They are catching michigans money. It costs us to keep the cold water fish pop. up, i know the people from indiana need to pay for the right to fish up here so don't tell me that, what happens from the money that all people who go to indiana to fish go?, does it go into the bass pop? maybe they should plany bass in those lakes the people are complaining about so they will have more bass after all the other people leave. They need to relize that even if you opened michigan an all season bass state, they would still have alot of anglers from michigan down there, as would be the case if you could plant cold water fish in more of indiana, there would still be more people up here fishing for them.

This was off-subject, but that comment that the indiana biologist made got me just a bit mad.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

I see a lot of people talking to a brick wall here. These sort of topics never do anything but damage the site and portray sportsmen in a bad light. Thread closed.


----------

