# PA Deer hunters are not to happy



## lostmale (Dec 28, 2003)

Reading this clip makes one wonder where deer management is heading between the auto insurance companies,farm bureau and all these other interest groups is going. This shows Michigans deer herd is not the only one under attack.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleynewsdispatch/sports/s_175072.html


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

If I ever hunt in PA I'll be doing so very well armed. Those deer must be huge and with teeth of iron. They would have to be in order to decimate the forest, eating oak trees, etc. My little ol' .308 would merely tickle the behemoths that inhabit those PA woodlands, farms, and fields.

I can't imagine the mayhem caused by vehicle/deer collisions in PA. I shudder at the thought.


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## Buddy Lee (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lostmale _
> *Reading this clip makes one wonder where deer management is heading between the auto insurance companies,farm bureau and all these other interest groups is going. This shows Michigans deer herd is not the only one under attack.
> 
> http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleynewsdispatch/sports/s_175072.html *


Prepare to be assaulted by the QDM folks who worship what Alt is doing in PA....


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Objective reporting at it's best. LMAO!


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

One man's junk is another state's treasure:

A model program for bowhunting


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## OTIS (Feb 15, 2001)

> Prepare to be assaulted by the QDM folks who worship what Alt is doing in PA....


Funny I thought the same thing. 
All the Chest Thumping "told you so" from PA threads are great, but this article will hold no merit what so ever.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Often it is made out to believe that insurance companies and others are out to decimate the deer herd. I believe that some of the tactics used can make it appear worse than it really is in reality.

The truth is that the majority of deer hunters, regardless if they are from PA, MI, WI or any other place wants lots of deer and wants almost an assurance of killing deer every year.

Michigan hunters again are not different from those from other states. They will compare their state to other states that do something that they agree with when their home state does not do something and say its better.

The truth is, Michigan along with PA or WI has too many deer and it is presenting problems that many hunters do not want to hear. Disease, insurance issues, crop damage, small deer, damage to habitat, supplemental feeding, artificial herd, cross bows, smokeless powder, baiting, mandatory deer checks are all results of much of the same issue - too many deer, hunters want more vs. more is not good. It is because of that, the controversy will never cease. Just my opinion.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I have greatly enjoyed my last 11 years hunting in PA. Although you don't see the herds of 50 coming down the hollow anymore, with a fork horn or 2, you do routinely see 4 or 5 different bucks a day, and 15-20 deer. Basically, less deer, more bucks...is that a bad thing? Also, our camp has experienced it's best success rates in the past 5 years in both number of bucks, and age of bucks.

Coming from a camp that has taken over 170 bucks on public land in over 30 years, with life-long PA residents....it's never been this good! At the same time, you can still get those 250yard+ shots through the open hardwoods due to the severe habitat degredation in the past. Lots of bucks, long shots, no baiting, no blinds, no ATV's, all on public land. It will spoil you.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Met a PA resident that owns a farm while I was at an AWLS camp in WY. He invited me to come to his farm next December and told me to BIG truck to bring all of my meat home. They get crop permits due to the HUGE number of deer there....... Sounds like I better get makin some ammo


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Boehr, that was a superb post. Every sentence is right on the money. It is worth repeating.



> _Originally posted by boehr _
> *The truth is that the majority of deer hunters, regardless if they are from PA, MI, WI or any other place wants lots of deer and wants almost an assurance of killing deer every year.
> 
> Michigan hunters again are not different from those from other states. They will compare their state to other states that do something that they agree with when their home state does not do something and say its better.
> ...



The common desire of hunters for more deer is precisely why the deer herd should not be managed to suit the wishes of the masses of deer hunters.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

At the same time, it seems people want success......quicker and easier. You see it in our young kids as well, they are worried more about where they will finish in the "rap-off" in Marquette, than planning for a real future.

I've found that no matter where I've hunted, public or private, whatever state, you generally get out of hunting, what you put into it. Lack of effort...lack of success, and don't complain abut it. I hunted over 300 hours on stand this year in 4 states, close to 100 sits, passed up over 30 bucks, and "only" harvested 2 bucks and a doe. 1 buck for 50 sits...and guys are complaining about the lack of success from a long weekend of hunting in the U.P., with a 1/2 day of scouting and only 3 or 4 evening sits!

As a society, I feel we want little effort or time but lots of success, and it's no different in the deer woods.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Northjeff..... I agree that kids are more concerned with being done with something than they are with doing it correctly, I see it EVERYDAY in my class!! I also agree that "you generally get out of hunting, what you put into it." The key word being GENERALLY. I spent many a moon scouting, sitting, walking, etc. attempting to find a good spot or 10 to sit. I found a few spots but saw NO deer. I soent many a moon in these places, signs all over, but still nothing. It would appear that my scouting and sitting skills need some work and I am willing to put in the time to do so!!


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Location is oh so important too. You maybe doing everything just right, but just in the wrong location. That's where the "generally" definately comes in.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Location, location, location!!!! Easy to say, hard to find  I will not give up though, its too much fun just being out there!!


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Hunter333 _
> * It would appear that my scouting and sitting skills need some work and I am willing to put in the time to do so!! *


Hunt of the 333 Magnitude,
You scouting skills may need only a tweaking or two. Generally, scouting takes place out of season. The deer have settled back into their normal routine for that time of year. What we miss in our scouting, many times, is how deer are affected by the activities of other hunters. To effectively factor in this dimension of scouting is difficult at best, but, nevertheless, required.


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## Hunter333 (Jan 19, 2000)

Suggested months for the optimum scouting? Thanks for the help!!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

First of all, great post boehr! We have been on opposites sides many times on various posts, but I couldn't agree with you more here.

Second, NorthJeff and Hunter333....I've said it many times on this site that we have become an instant gratification society, especially the young people coming up. No one has patience any more, whether it's with hunting, completing school, looking for a good job, working hard to make a marriage work, you name it. That's why I have very vocally bashed the majority of the cable outdoors shows that continue to show the ranches in Texas and elsewhere, where deer are managed, and they sit in a shack and "score" the deer on the hoof before they take a shot. This is just not reality in the majority of hunting. But yet the young people coming up watch this, and believe it to be true. I continue to maintain that the QDM movement is a result of too many people wanting this way of "hunting" to be the norm, and willing to do anything it takes to get there. If you want to improve the health of the herd as a whole, it's a great idea. But you'll never convince me that those ranches in Texas are more concerned about the overall health of the herd than they are with the score of the bucks. They make no bones about it! Baiting was another example of "hunters" becoming set in their ways and coaxing the deer to come to them instead of doing the hard work to scout, stalk, etc. We now have created a generation of "hunters" who know nothing about scouting, stalking.....doing the hard work it takes. Okay.....take a breath......I'm done venting.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Months for scouting?
December..........the old sign will give the hunter an idea of what the deer were doing in November during active hunting seasons.

Early Spring.......after the snow melt

September (archery) and October (firearms)


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

The Texas properties (and many other states, and yes, they do many things better IHMO) that you speak of are "managed". Remember that concept? Management? They do care most about deer health. Because antler's are the indicator of herd health. They go hand in hand. You can't get decent antlers with a mismanaged herd. Mismanaged herd, no out of state hunters paying big money. Just look around... And instant gratification couldn't be more off base. I passed on bucks for 3 years and would be willing to pass on bucks for the next 5, if I thought it'd make any difference. This issue is like watching recent politics. I can't believe how many people believe that Bush is a Hitler like, AWOL deserter that's both the most cunning evil man on the planet, yet a bumbing fool. Which is it? Do we want a quick fix to our deer mess or are we trying to ruin it over a long time for everyone else to drive them out of the sport with QDM management? Do we want to hord all the bucks on private land for our own greed, or do we want to spread it so everyone has a chance at a decent buck? If you don't want to change anything, that must mean you're completely happy with our present situtation. Because without some form of change, what you see is what you get with our deer hunting for quite some time.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

About the best thing you can do, is do it yourself! I don't mind saying that one of the main reasons I am living where I do, is that I can affordably own my little piece of heaven, and change my own hunting, on my own property, all by myself. We bought our house, and our 120 acres for $114,000, at a time when $100,000 in Waterford, where I grew up and lived for 27 years, could only buy you a small house in the worst of neighborhoods. I see young couples around here "struggling" to make ends meet on their $250,000 new house on an acre and complain that only the rich can afford to buy hunting land....  

Now I'm not hoping you all move to the U.P., but owning land can be a very rewarding life-long endeavor of management activities. This coming year will be my 5th year of management activities on our current parcel, and I am honestly getting to the point where I can say that good things come to those who wait!

If you want to experience change the best way...do it yourself on your own land. At the same time, I'd love for the public land to be improved just the same, but the reality is that it isn't. If you can swing it, although it is and incredible amount of work and time, it can be very rewarding!


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Thanks for clearing this up Ed Spin,



> I'm looking into this story and will get the true facts.
> 
> When the Pennsylvania Game Commission asked Dr. Gary Alt to come up with a plan to address the dismal deer situation, they did this with tongue in cheek. The Governor first asked the commission to do something because he was tired of all the complaints from unsatisfied hunters.
> 
> ...





> Just got off the phone with a key member, Kip Adams, of the meeting that Karl J Powers refers to.
> 
> Kip Adams, biologist and regional director was on the panel at this meeting in January and tells me this story.
> 
> ...


Touché


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Nice!!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

[email protected],
I wasn't saying that all QDM supporters are instant gratification people. My point was those guys on TV sit in a shack, counting points, picking the best score to shoot. How natural is that? And people who are learning to hunt get the idea that that is "hunting", and the norm, which it clearly isn't by my definition. It's shooting! Now, is it "management"? Yeah to some extent....you're right. But don't call it hunting. They might as well put paintball dots on them in the summer and just tell guys to "shoot the yellow dots only". The instant gratification reference was directed at the fact that they are only interested in the best score buck possible. They say that throughout these programs. And they use the most time efficient way to get one....i.e. sitting in a shack over bait or a food plot....ergo...instant gratification. In other words, not willing to put in the time scouting, stalking, etc. that maybe you or I would.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> I continue to maintain that the QDM movement is a result of too many people wanting this way of "hunting" to be the norm, and willing to do anything it takes to get there.





> I wasn't saying that all QDM supporters are instant gratification people


HMMMMMMMMMMMM..............??????????

If it takes Texans sitting in a 'shack' hunting over a balanced herd of deer to show people what proper management can do, I'm all for it.

But you don't need to go to Texas, they just happen to have the most camera friendly environment to hunt.  

I see an awful lot of shows in Man., Sask., Alb., IA, Ill, and Ks, hunting over CRP, Federal, State and Provincial lands with similar success. It's all about management. 

I bet 75% of the firearms hunters in this state hunt out of a 'shack'.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. All these states and provinces have the same goal, but have different antlered buck mangament schemes, staggered permit systems, firearm hunting after the rut, antler restricitons, just to name a few.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Swamp Ghost _
> *I see an awful lot of shows in Man., Sask., Alb., IA, Ill, and Ks, hunting over CRP, Federal, State and Provincial lands with similar success. It's all about management. *


I would seriously question the above statement that suggests there are any number of those shows taken on public lands. Texas has virtually no public land hunting. It is almost entirely on private property, either by invitation or by paying a hefty fee.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Question it all you want, it's the truth. Especially on Provincial Canada, on BLM grounds out West and on CRP grounds across the Midwest.

Properly managed deer herds and deer hunters are the key to these shows, states and province's success'.


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Whit,

Public land in Alberta and Saskatchewan is called "crown" land.
It is vast and wild.

I can say with confidence that the crown land in those territories hold tremendous deer herds.

I just returned from there. We all shot enormous bucks...and every hunter in camp viewed multiple large bucks.

I cant even begin to explain the differences between their crown land and our state land. It looks the same, but the deer herd is worlds apart.
I had never seen an actual herd of bucks before.

The herd up there was surreal.

I saw over 200 deer, over 100 of those were antlered deer.

The competition for breeding rights was evident everywhere.

Most of the mature bucks had battle scars, I saw 2 buck fights, and heard 2 more.

I saw a doe in heat being chased by an 8 point and 2 10 points.

I have never witnessed a natural herd before, and I spent the whole week in shock and awe.

I know Michigan will never look that way...but wow, why do we have to be so far removed from that?

It is the untapped potential of Michigans deer herd that makes me strive for more bucks, older bucks, and with that comes the competition that will help tommorrows deer be stronger and healthier.

I would support a one year buck moratorium, ar's, 1 buck tag, or anything that will increase male competition.

Lets get enough bucks so there is at least competition for breeding, and then set our harvest to remove an adequate number of deer in all age classes.

JMHO,

Hunt


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

_Quote by Huntnut _ 


> I know Michigan will never look that way...but wow, why do we have to be so far removed from that?


Hunter density many times higher with a much longer combined deer season.

I'm not exactly sure but the land mass has got to be many times that of Michigan. 

I'm also sure that they don't have 350,000 archery hunters and 750,000 firearms hunters.

Less land more hunters equals highly pressured deer where most don't grow very old. I do agree with your quote Huntnut.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

What about IA, IL, KS, and Texas was also mentioned??


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> What about IA, IL, KS, and Texas


Manangement, Management, Management.

These states and provinces manage for a more natural deer herds. 1.5-2:1 buck to doe ratios. Older, more mature buck populations. Staggering hunting pressure over several weeks not 2 million hunters hitting the woods on the same day.

I would love to hit the woods in a similar fashion as we do when turkey hunting. Gives you the impression you have the woods to yourself, I bet the deer would think the same thing.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

SW,
My mention of those states above was in reference to the claim that many of those deer hunt videos take place on public land in those states. The states mentioned have a minimal amount of public land. The top quality hunting is on private property. Or am I once again mistaken?


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

I really cant say Whit....guess it all depends on the video.

The only place Ive seen dynamic public land was in Canada, and Alaska.

I really dont know about the other states...not first hand experience anyway.
Hopefully I will soon enough  

I tend to think you are correct tho.

Hunt


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Just a few, both whitetails and muleys, could have included elk and turkey, but it is a deer forum.

Public Land Whitetails 

Northwoods Whitetail Adventure Video 

Lowland Mulies 

Real World DEER HUNTING 

MULEY MADNESS


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> The top quality hunting is on private property. Or am I once again mistaken?


For the most part, but why is that? Management 

It's sad that people have to pay some one to access their lands in order to hunt a properly managed public resource. Or even worse, having to watch it on TV.

This precisely why PA went with statewide reg's.



> Why have statewide regulations instead of trying new antler restrictions on smaller, pilot areas?
> 
> In answering this question it is important to understand that the fundamental goal of a pilot area is to evaluate a management action to see if it will work across the state. To meet this basic goal, the pilot area must be representative of the entire state. If the pilot area is different than the entire state, then results from it have limited value when applied to the entire state.
> 
> Therefore, restrictions were implemented statewide (except for Special Regulation counties) instead of pilot areas for three reasons. First, we didn't want to create areas hunters could avoid the first year, because of limited opportunity to harvest a buck, and then flood the second year when more adult bucks would be available. Second, we did not want to encourage the leasing of hunting land here. Generally, hunters lease land to obtain opportunities not available elsewhere. By implementing new antler restrictions statewide, no area is unique. Therefore, we expect leasing of hunting land to be less likely than if we designated local pilot areas that offered increased opportunities to harvest adult bucks. Finally, from research data, we know that if yearling bucks are not shot, they are likely to survive to become adults. So, success of antler restrictions comes down to hunter acceptance and behavior. In essence, with small pilot areas hunters would likely behave differently than if restriction were applied statewide. For these reasons, we favored statewide evaluation of the new antler restrictions.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Can't speak for all of those states, but there are superb public land hunting opportunities available in Illinois.

Before we get into another public/private land class war, we should keep in mind that 81% of Michigan deer hunters hunt private land (Bull-Peyton survey).


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