# Doe with twin button bucks



## circle-m-hunter (Oct 8, 2004)

I have been watching a doe with twin button buck fawns the past couple weekends. I have had guys tell me I should take her out which will keep the button buck around our area. Is this true, or is it better to let her go and hope she keeps throwing twin bucks? Thanks for any input.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I've read that about 80% of button bucks disperse from their birth range if their mother is there to push them away. I too was unsure about this dispersal rate but began by shooting does with single buck fawns. By not shooting the doe you become a net exporter of bucks.

I try to target mature does that have at least one button buck in tow. This year I intend to orphan at least 4 button bucks. Will it work? Only time will tell. I do not want too many deer so I will continue to shoot does until I run out of tags or I get the local herd to a reasonable level.

One part that you did not mention was, if your area needs to reduce deer numbers. Assuming you do good luck and shoot straight.


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## circle-m-hunter (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm in Oceana County in an area that, to me, doesn't seem to need a reduction in deer population. I see a lot of bucks during bow season, almost as many bucks as does. I appreciate your input and will consider taking her if I see her again.


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## outdooralex (Jan 7, 2002)

I saw something this year that was pretty interesting. Last seson I kept seeing this button buck. It had a pure white patch of fur about 10 to 12 inches in diameter right on its back. It looked like a big ole bullseye. I saw it about 6 or 7 times during the season. Everytime I saw it he was buy himself. Never with a doe or with another fawn. This year my neighbor stopped buy to show us a video of all the deer he has been seeing in his fields. When I looked at one group of deer, there was that buck, bright white patch still there but now he was about a 3" spike. This guys property is only about a quarter mile away. I am asuming that with all the times I saw it last year alone something probably happened to the mother. It would have been interesting to see where it would have ended up if the doe was still around??


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## ArrowHawk (Apr 1, 2003)

This is what I have noticed and remember I'm no expert.

I have noticed in the two areas I mostly hunt we have the local Does that are there all year. The Does with the Button Bucks seem to leave the area for a period of time and when they return the Button Bucks are no longer with them. I have also seen them just start completely not pay attention to them and they disappear. The adult Bucks that come into the areas toward the end of October are deer we have never seen before and are there until the end of the season. Some of these Bucks return the following year around the same time.

So what I'm saying is Yes if you want the Buttons to stay in the area take the Doe. As for me I would let her go to push the Button away. I perfer to take a Doe with Doe fawns.

My reason behind this is I feel with the Does pushing there own away keeps from any inbreeding in the herd. Natures way. By taking the Doe with Buttons will keep them in the area and inbreeding will acure.

Just my Opinion
Arrow


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## beerguide (Dec 2, 2003)

I have heard of the concern of in-breeding before. I would gotta believe that there already exists a certain amount of in-breeding already as in all wild animals. On my property the current buck/doe ratio I felt was pretty close so I planned on not taking any does and planned on doing so elsewhere but I recently had a large doe come by me that I had passed not knowing that she had twin button bucks that eventually came by, given another chance I will take this doe because of the dispersal theary.


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## circle-m-hunter (Oct 8, 2004)

I guess I'm leaning toward letting her go. The area I hunt has a chunk of 160 acres of Fed land surrounded by 1,000+ acres of private land with no public access to the fed land. The fed land is basically a big bog/swamp and is what I believe the deer's core bedding area. I think if I let her go, those bucks won't go to far and will more than likely show up again in the future. I would like to have a lone dried up doe come in and I would for sure take her.


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## choop (Dec 1, 2003)

Interesting thread as I saw a doe with button twins that were quite large already for this years fawns. I would have shot her given the chance because of the dispersal theory. Last year there was a doe with two buttons and later in the season I saw the buttons over and over again with no doe. Not sure if she was taken or just went on her way. The buttons definitely hung around and even made a certain swale their home neighborhood. Last weekend saw 6 does come through with one fawn and on the end of the line were two bucks, the same size, one with a decent set of forks and the other with three inch spikes. I want to believe those were the buttons. I know they survived last years season, I hope they do this year as well.

Cirlce M, I live in Spring Lake and hunt Nunica, thought maybe we were crossing paths!!!


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## Andy (May 20, 2004)

I saw something interesting this year as well. We were hunting over a food plot that had 5 1 1/2 year old bucks in it. There were no does. All the sudden 3 antlerless deer come into the field and we soon find out that all 3 are button bucks?! This was on 10/2/04. I guess I don't really understand why there were 3 buttons out there chompin down on brassicas, but no adult does. Especially at that time of year. Maybe the mother of the buttons were inside the woodline eating something else. Or maybe the 1 1/2's had claimed the food plot as a bucks only place to eat. Who knows, but it sure was an interesting and fun hunt!

andy


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## wecker20 (Mar 10, 2004)

Is there any info. on the in-breeding among whitetails? Naturaly, momma is gonna die and what happens w/ her buck fawns. Do they leave naturally? Does the sister or grandma step up and kick him out? If not, In-breeding would be very common. Seems like the buck would know it has to leave to prevent it.


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## steveboss (Sep 4, 2002)

I heard about doing this a couple of years ago and thought it was interesting and last week I was on the QDMA web site and there is a article about this with actual studies that were done. It is very good reading if anyone is interested the aricle is titled "Button Buck Biology" the bottom line is it is true shoot the doe with button buck fawns and the button bucks will probably stay within 1/4 mile of where they grew up.


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## circle-m-hunter (Oct 8, 2004)

Choop,
I would imagine that we indeed cross paths as the Spring Lake/Nunica metropolis is so small.:lol: I hunt up near Walkerville mostly as I have lost the local spots I used to hunt. Lots of information here to take with me up to the cabin this weekend and digest as I wait for the doe and buttons to return. Maybe I'll get lucky and daddy buck will come by instead.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Link to QDMA's article that may help with your decision


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

I've been taking two does per season on my property each year in northern Muskegon County and every doe was specifically selected with two button bucks. I can say the theory works. It is fun to watch twin 6-pts yearlings.


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## campblujay (Jan 21, 2004)

Dr. Chris Rosenberry. Wildlife biometrician. Maryland study

"Unfortunately, reducing dispersal may not be as simple as increasing adult doe harvests.

In a study I worked on, competition with other yearling bucks appeared to influence dispersal more than aggression from adult does. In this study, yearling bucks were captured and marked with solar-powered ear tag transmitters and color streamers. The combination of transmitters and color streamers permitted visual identification of individual bucks and monitoring of long distance movements. Social behavior of yearling bucks was observed throughout summer and fall. After fall dispersal, behavior of yearling bucks that dispersed was compared to behavior of those that did not. Behavioral comparisons suggested that dispersing yearling bucks appeared more subordinate in competitive interactions (antler sparring) with other bucks than yearling bucks that did not disperse.

There was no evidence that adult females influenced dispersal of yearling bucks. Thus, in this study, it appeared that competition with other yearling males influenced dispersal.

Social behavior of white-tailed deer varies in different areas, and the two most investigated causes of dispersal (male competition and adult female aggression) are based on social behavior. Thus, it is likely that causes of dispersal could vary according to changes in social structure and behavior of different deer populations. Although current research provides insights into the social environment of dispersing yearling bucks, it has not identified a universal cause of yearling buck dispersal.

Conclusions:
Dispersal is a significant part of the lives of most yearling bucks. Next month I'll discuss the impacts of dispersal on deer management decisions on areas from hundreds of acres to a hundred thousand acres or more. Below is a summary of main points of dispersal:

Chances of seeing a button buck a year later are not high because some will be taken during deer seasons, and of those that survive, most will disperse miles from their natal range by the next deer season.

Dispersal is likely to occur during spring fawning and fall breeding seasons, when yearling bucks experience social changes.

The reason why bucks disperse is not likely to be a single factor. Studies with conflicting results emphasize that deer behave differently in different areas.

Once a yearling buck has chosen an area to live after dispersal, he will probably remain in that area for the rest of his life. "


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

*Button Buck Biology*

By: Brian Murphy


A study conducted by Stefan Holzenbein and Dr. R. Larry Marchinton in Georgia revealed that dispersal of young bucks was greatly reduced if the buck`s mother was harvested prior to dispersal. Prior to this study, it was believed that adult bucks in the area were responsible for forcing young bucks to leave their birth area.

The Holzenbein study monitored 34 buck fawns divided into two groups - 19 that were left with their mothers (non-orphans) and 15 whose mothers were harvested or removed (orphans). The results were surprising. By 30 months of age, 87 percent of the non-orphans had dispersed from their birth areas, but only nine percent of the orphans had left theirs. In addition, the non-orphans died at more than twice the rate of the orphans.

They reasoned that dispersing bucks were less aware of their new surroundings and more likely to succumb to harvest by hunters as well as death from predation, accidents and other mortality factors. This was supported by the Rosenberry study, which revealed that only 36 percent of yearling bucks that dispersed survived their first hunting season, whereas 66 percent of those that did not disperse survived. The primary reason for death of the dispersers in this study was harvest by hunters on surrounding properties that were not practicing QDM.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Yearling buck dispersal is a complicated process that is not well understood (at least, the influences). Numerous studies have been done on this subject and they all come up with different numbers.

There are a couple of "trends" though. The farther north the study is conducted, the more dispersal of young bucks occurs in spring instead of fall. In addition, the farther north the study is conducted, the farther the dispersal is. In Deep South studies, most young bucks only dispersal a mile or so. In the mid-South, it is more like 5 miles. In the far north it averages more than 10 miles, with some young bucks moving 70+ miles.

"Why" yearling bucks disperse is another story. Early studies strongly suggested it was aggression from the young buck's mother that forced him to disperse. The study mentioned above from Maryland suggested it was aggression from other bucks of the same age that caused dispersal. Both of those studies have merit. However, I have witnessed and documented reduced yearling buck dispersal in areas under intensive doe harvests. I have not witnessed buck-buck antagonism increasing dispersal. As the theory goes with buck-buck aggression, larger yearling bucks will disperse away from an area that has a good buck age structure due to the large yearling potentially being a more dominant breeder in areas with a poor buck age structure. In essence, the largest yearling bucks would disperse away from an area with many older bucks and go looking for an area without many older bucks, increasing his chances of being a breeder in that area. This would leave only the small, truly subordinate yearling bucks in the area with numerous older bucks.

Yet I do not see that occurring. We run camera censuses on properties from mid-summer through the hunting season into winter. We know what bucks are living on the property during the summer and who disperses come fall. In areas with good buck age structures surrounded by areas with poor buck age structures, we do not see the best yearlings dispersing away from the good buck age structure area. In fact, we see just the opposite. We see areas with good buck age structures actually drawing yearling bucks. We believe that a "proper" or more natural buck age structure is somehow "attractive" to young bucks. Why, we don't know. But we frequently see areas that are intensively managed for older bucks seeing a "net gain" in yearlings due to dispersal onto the property with very little dispersal off of the property.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Inbreeding in whitetails is an interesting topic. Most biologists suspect yearling buck dispersal probably developed as a social behavior to reduce the potential for inbreeding. However, as often occurs in Nature, a particular adaptation that developed for one reason ends up producing a positive result for a different reason.

Every species has one or more special adaptations that make it a successful species within it's environment. Whitetailed deer are no different. As more and more is learned about the genome of deer (complete sequence of DNA) it appears highly likely that "genetic diversity" is one of the species primary adaptations that make it so successful. The whitetail genome is extraordinarily diverse--far more so than most other cervids, and more so than most known mammilian species.

That may be their primary adaptation for survival. It has often been noted that deer do extremely well in an extraordinarily diverse set of environment conditions, from the brutal winters of the far North to the hot, dry near deserts of TX to the tropical swamps of Florida. They are probably so successful under such widely varying conditions because their genome is so diverse. In any given population of whitetails there is going to be a few deer--just be shear random chance--that have genetic capabilities that help them prosper in those conditions.

That brings us back to yearling buck dispersal. Although the process probably developed to reduce inbreeding, it also--again, by chance--just happens to greatly increase the flow of different genetic traits over a wide area as quickly as biologically possible. This would greatly increase genetic diversity within localized populations, as "new" genetics from other widely dispersed areas flow into the population carried by these dispersing young bucks.

In addition, several other social behaviors and breeding biology _appear_ to be directed at specifically "mixing" genetic codes within localized populations, but that is another long story...


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I beleive dispersal is important biologicaly. It would be poor practice in livestock to breed with offspring. A practice of line breeding is fraught with potential problems. If your only concern is the number of bucks shoooting the doe may give you that but at what future cost?


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## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

BSK, 

You wrote : 

_"There are a couple of "trends" though. The farther north the study is conducted, the more dispersal of young bucks occurs in spring instead of fall. In addition, the farther north the study is conducted, the farther the dispersal is. In Deep South studies, most young bucks only dispersal a mile or so. In the mid-South, it is more like 5 miles. In the far north it averages more than 10 miles, with some young bucks moving 70+ miles."_

Don't you think a possible explanation of the above may be due food shortage up north : more difficult growth (BB are not strong enough to disperse in fall) and disperse farther up north than down south ?


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

That is an interesting thought guys. Maybe northern deer disperse farther because on average, they are older at the time of dispersal.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Deer certainly do like to travel. South of Mt. Pleasant had few deer around WW11. By 1960 most of lower Mich. had a small population. Now whether or not bucks disperse more than does, I don't know, but I assume young does will travel a ways to find an unused birthing area. Some have suggested that the mother doe physically forces the yearling buck to leave an area...I have a very hard time believing that. Just how any deer could "herd" another deer out of an area is pretty hard to imagine. I have watched dozens & dozens of yearling bucks chase does around the woods, but I have never seen a doe chase a buck. And do these bucks chase the doe out of the area ? Of course not, they end up running around in circles and back in forth. You might see the buck chasing a doe several times in one sit. There are several good reasons for taking a doe, I don't believe the concern over her driving her button buck(s) is one of them.

L & O


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## ArcticCat (Nov 1, 2004)

I saw your post on Buckmasters forums about this subject, what Ken Piper wrote is as true as I know it. I too have had a pair of button bucks roaming my woods, as for taking the doe out, thats all up to you, but Id wait untill late seasong, she will teach the young ones about the hunting pressure... That in turn will help them make it thru another season or so. But I do believe a 1 to 1 ratio is best... just my 2 cents.


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## ArcticCat (Nov 1, 2004)

BSK said:


> In the far north it averages more than 10 miles, with some young bucks moving 70+ miles.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Id like to see the field report on the 1 1/2 year old buck that traveled 70 miles. Where can this be found?


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

L&O,

Actually, we do specifically target does with button buck offspring in the hopes of reducing young buck dispersal. We have seen positive results. One of my proudest kills was not a huge buck but a doe with triplet button buck fawns. Odds are very high those button bucks stayed on the property. Now there is chance they would have stayed anyways, but Marchington's study was very clear that--at least in the South--removing the mother doe reduces young buck dispersal.

You must not have been in the woods at the right time. Numerous times I've seen adult does "attack" a yearling buck that is traveling with them (part of their social unit and obviously one of the doe's offspring). She will rear up and flail at him with her front hooves, sometimes even whopping him over the head. Typical doe "aggression" behavior.

Yes, does temporarily disperse during the fawning period, but that is because does are truly territorial during fawning. They will establish a fawning territory and defend it from other deer--both males and females. Fawning territiory is established by dominance, with the most dominant doe choosing the best territories while the less dominant does get the poorer territories. Exactly how many of the lesser social status does return to their original range is a question. Not that many studies have been done on this process, but the few that have been conducted suggested that returns to the original doe social unit range may be driven by deer density. Most return, but in low deer density areas, some young does do not return, establishing a new home range where they are "top dog," or at least higher on the social ladder.

Social pressures are far, far more important in deer behavior and performance than most would believe. As more is known about deer social interactions, many researchers are beginning to believe social interactions may be THE most important player in individual deer performance.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

BSK,
You said that you have seen does attack yearling bucks, ok. Then did you watch the doe somehow drive or herd the buck from that area and out of the section ? One deer driving another deer 20 yards away can hardly be called dispersal. I find it pretty hard to believe that an antlered buck is going to be push around very much by a doe. 
It isn't me that hasn't seen this behavior. Several weeks ago I was having a discussion with 4 other hunters about this subject because I had read so much about in on this site. Between the 5 of us we have taken over 250 deer, many turkeys, live in a farming/high deer density area and one guy has been doing food plots since the mid-60's. We spend a large amount of time year round watching & hunting deer. None of us could recall ever seeing a doe attack an antlered buck. 
I agree that deer will certainly travel or disperse. I believe that is pretty normal behavior. I just don't believe that yearling bucks are somehow driven miles away by their mother. 

L & O


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2004)

I don't think that young buck dispersal is something that a hunter can necessarily observe. But studies have proven that young bucks disperse when their mother is around and tend to stay put if mom is gone. Right or wrong, I happen to trust scientific studies more than my own observations. Maybe that's a fault of mine due to all those years studying the sciences...


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

L&O,

Yearling buck dispersal doesn't occur in a single event. What had been a "normal" social unit organization (yearling buck is lowest on the doe social unit ladder, but still an accepted member of the group) begins to face daily aggression towards him. Eventually he--and I hate to anthropomorphize deer too much--"feels" unwelcome. Eventually he moves away to avoid the daily and increasing aggression.

Is doe aggression the total story on young buck dispersal? Certainly not. As more is known about buck disperal, I'm sure other factors will be found at play. In fact, there will probably be several mechanisms found that drive dispersal.


You wrote:
*I find it pretty hard to believe that an antlered buck is going to be push around very much by a doe.*

Hard to believe, yes. But in the whitetail social world, does are actually dominant over all bucks, no matter their age or size. This is critical to survival of the species. The females are the young bearers and rearers. It is important that does have access to the best food sources, hence they will dominate the best habitat while bucks are forced towards the poorest habitat.

What most hunters don't realize is that bucks and does lead very separate lives during much of the year. Buck bachelor groups will have their core areas, while doe social units have different core areas, with the does inhabiting the best over-all habitat quality and the bucks the worst. The primary location in which the two groups interact is primary feeding areas. Even then, when groups move towards feeding areas, does will dominate the bucks away from the food source until they are finished. Of course, the same is even true between doe social units. In a normal setting, each social unit will feed alone, followed by the next social unit and the next and so on. They prefer not to mix at the same time.

Hunters rarely see these social interactions because they have become so used to hunting high density herds where normal social interactions have broken down. In fact, when I visit a property, if I see more than one doe social unit feeding in the same 1-2 acre food plot at the same time, I know that herd has run out of "social space." There is so much competition between deer for food sources, that the normal social interactions are no longer at play. Although that would seem like an awefully "esoteric" problem, social dynamics are extremely powerful players in individual animal performance. A deer under higher than normal social pressure will not perform well, no matter their nutritional intake.


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

I find it pretty hard to believe that an antlered buck is going to be push around very much by a doe.
In the human world remember how many big tough guys are pushed around by the doe of the house.


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## Ed Michrina (Dec 25, 2002)

ArcticCat said:


> I saw your post on Buckmasters forums about this subject, what Ken Piper wrote is as true as I know it. I too have had a pair of button bucks roaming my woods, as for taking the doe out, thats all up to you, but Id wait untill late seasong, she will teach the young ones about the hunting pressure... That in turn will help them make it thru another season or so. But I do believe a 1 to 1 ratio is best... just my 2 cents.



ArcticCat well said. 

Just a silly though,t I'm supprised that no one brought up. Animals (I would think deer also) can produce more male offspring than female to reduce the herd size??? Just a guess I would think population, food and the type of survival (good summer) and possilble hard winter(s) on there way might all paly a role? 

I'm prob wrong and all you QDM people will think I'm nuts. --thats ok, I am and have paper work to prove it :lol: Good luck on the opener.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Ed,

It is strongly believed deer have some control over the sex of their offspring (biological factors effecting fetal sex, not by choice). However, no one can figure out 1) how it works (controlling mechanisms), or 2) what effect is being produced (why).


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