# 6 point or better rule????



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

swampstand said:


> Not trying upset anyone but I would like to learn why this rule is applied to some properties/camps.
> 
> The way I see it, a 6 point is TYPICALLY a year and a half old. Along with spikes and four points.


It is one way, maybe not the best, but one way, to improve the age structure of the deer herd and to improve the buck to doe ratio.


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## safetreehunt (Oct 1, 2003)

Holy cow, or should I say deer. What Encore wrote is almost word for word how we practice our version of QDM in Iosco County on our 240 acre property. Same amount of time as well. It seems that taking care of your herd is the number one priority. As for the 6 point or better "rule", it's more of a guidline than anything. Each of our hunters has a personal interest in bettering the herd and will make decisions based on that ideal. For example, we won't even shoot small basket 8's, but a nice big 2.5 year or better 6 is fair game. 
Since we have implemented this way of managing our herd we've had much better results every year with this year as you see below being our best to date. We did take a 4 point, but only as a mercy killing since it had a broken leg. But 3 - 8's and 2 - 7's is the best results in 27 years. The 5 does don't hurt much either.


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## swampstand (Feb 7, 2005)

Safetreehunt,

That is an awesome photo. I did see it from your original post worth seeing again. Lots of meat in your freezers.


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## bowhunter1313 (Oct 17, 2005)

Great post Encore, right on !! Personally I agree with you 100%. You guys are doing it right. I had the good fortune to hunt a farm in Washtenaw county that encomposed over 1000 acres and these "Rules" sorry, I mean guidleines were applied for about 10 years and the hunting was out of this world. I saw 3-6 bucks each time out, and during bow season was able to harvest 2 very nice mature bucks. I also agree 100% that if someone who doesn't hunt much or has not harvested a buck before wants to shoot a smaller deer then fine, just do it under the legel methods. Too many RULES may deter young hunters from going out into the woods. I would love to see restrictions for certain DMU's and let other DMU's remain as they are OR, at least allow hunters 18 & under to have unresticted bucks tags for antler size. That way the young hunters can tase success and get hooked, and the older hunters who have had success already can hold out for bigger bucks. The real problem that will be DIFFICULT to tackle is cull bucks. This is virtually impossible for the DNR to regulate but is vital for private land owners to keep inferior bucks out of the herd. QDM, has many angles and the DNR ahs a LARGE task of trying to tackle this over an entire state. I think let the entire state got o 8 or better except for younger hunters (18 & under) and then allow any size buck tags to be available by draw for each DMU. That would allow for some hunters to shoot whatever they want and other knowledgable hunters to cull bucks if they see fit.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

The world is getting a lot smaller isn't if folks?
The discussions on rather to institute guidelines, rules or requirements on antler points will probably go on as long as there are Democrats and Republicans  
I don't think that there's really any "one way" to come to a consensus.
I've talked to other hunters, viewed opinions here and talked to neighboring landowners. Everyone appears to have a different opinion. These are some that I remember:
*What if*: Only one buck tag throughout the entire State was implemented?
Certainly there would be more bucks. Would some of us that fill both tags now, hold off for that larger buck, therefore allowing the smaller bucks to grow? One could assume that there would be more bucks for the 1 or 2 day a year hunter to have a chance to harvest.
*What if*: There was a 6 or 8 pt requirement throughout the entire State? Would that mean that more of our mature bucks will be harvested and leave more inferior bucks to breed their genes? What would the inferior breeding do to the future of the herd in MI? Would one assume that the hunter who only has 1 or 2 available days to hunt has an extremely limited chance of harvesting a buck?
*What if*: In DMU's that have an over abundance of does has a requirement of "take a doe, get a buck tag"? Would we still have a 2nd buck tag? Would we have to take 2 does to get the second tag? It may improve the chances for meat for the 1 or 2 day hunter, but if he/she only has 1 or 2 days available, do they try to take "any" deer when they can now?
*What if*: Antler restrictions were implemented throughout the State for a 10 pt or better? What kind of uproar would that create?
*What if:* Hunters stopped watching OLN and the Outdoor channel? Would it bring more people back to reality?
There's many more "what if's" that I'm hearing. 

One can assume that in the current Global competation for quality and efficency, that there will be less and less time for the working man/woman to hunt. Fewer employers are going to allow workers the time to "just hunt".
Our land is being split and sold at alarming rates. Properties that I used to hunt as a youngster are now subdivisions. And its going to get worse.
I'm *Blessed* to have the amount of hunting property that I have. Those that hunt with me on this property are, how should I say it, matured a little. We've had our great kills and its different now.
I really feel sorry for the man/woman that has to hunt for a place to hunt. MI is starting to become a State like some of the Western States, if you don't own or lease land, you have no place to hunt. We've all seen hunters trying to find a place to hunt on State land. I've really heard some bad things that apply to some hunters there, but that's the minority. The others are just trying to find a place to hunt in their limited time available. Any stress here?
I just hate to think that Mi would implement an antler requirement (on any buck) and limit the ability of many hunters to kill a buck. And an age separation for antler size, my goodness I hear enough bad things people are saying about the early youth hunt now. I can't believe that some hunters are so selfish that they would rather take a buck than let a youngster take his/her first buck.
I remember 40 years ago when I took my first buck. It was just a spike, but remember how you felt when you "bagged" your first buck or even the second?
I don't know where this is going to end up and/or turn out in the future. We as private landowners, guests and/or leasees, should try and do our part. We have to start thinking about the "little guy" too or end up like him.
I'm just glad that I'm not the one making the decision


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

You're a deer management visionary Encore, and whether you want to believe it or not, you ARE making the decisions!


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Letmgro said:


> You're a deer management visionary Encore, and whether you want to believe it or not, you ARE making the decisions!


 Thanks,


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## Gilbey (Oct 26, 2005)

I have one question on this post since it was brought up.

The "8 or better" rule.

When you have a buck chasing a doe around, or it's a 180/200 yrd shot, or it's trotting across a pipeline, 

How do you guys determine whether or not it has brow tines. To me an 8 or better rule would entail a lot of bucks with 3 on each side with a brow.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gilbey said:


> I have one question on this post since it was brought up.
> 
> The "8 or better" rule.
> 
> ...


Good question and concern..........take the shot, don't take the shot.
*Someone's got a decision to make*..............I BELIEVE that that's what its all about! It's the ultimate in REALITY guessing games! THIS IS THE RUSH THAT EVERYONE LOVES TO HATE, THEN LEARNS TO JUST LOVE!
Now, if you're possiblly talking about having to take a "snap shot", I myself avoid them. I'd rather have a clean kill than have to chase a wounded animal around 1/2 a day or, even worse, loose the animal. *The next best thing to a sure kill is a clean miss.*
Actually, I think that after a hunter starts to practice identification, it becomes much easier to make a decision. AND, makes you a better hunter.


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## Gilbey (Oct 26, 2005)

I totally agree that this is the part to love and a big decision with every animal. But.....to put it in a perspective for a new law, here's an example:

My friend took a shot at a very nice buck on the pipeline. When hunting there, which I do and have, decisions are normally, well, how long does a strong trot 30 yards take, not a whole lot of time, and sees three on a side, ears covering brows, main beams great length.

He decided to take that shot. Came to camp as it was not a good shot. (one of those guys that's always something). Went out, tracked it down, and it was a nice 6 with no brows.

Now, if it was a DNR enstated rule, 8 or better. This would be illegal in that instancee, and yet it was 3.5 yrs old, nice buck just no brows.

It's just part of a large part of the if's that could be out there. 

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to present the flip side to that coin.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gilbey said:


> I totally agree that this is the part to love and a big decision with every animal. But.....to put it in a perspective for a new law, here's an example:
> 
> My friend took a shot at a very nice buck on the pipeline. When hunting there, which I do and have, decisions are normally, well, how long does a strong trot 30 yards take, not a whole lot of time, and sees three on a side, ears covering brows, main beams great length.
> 
> ...


I don't think that you're being argumentative. I think if you read most of my posts here, you'll see that I'm against any kind of law, rule, or requirement of the number of antler pts. a buck must have to harvest him.
I/we do it on my property becuse its helped out buck hunting. *My suggestion all along is it should be the individual hunter's choice on which buck to harvest*.
I'm retired here in NE MI and have some acreage up here also (240 down below). All summer I've watched some young deer. A small spike, a "crab claw" 3 pt. and another small buck with nice beams but only one brow tine. Guess what? They're still out back. The neighbors seen them many times throughout the bow, gun and muzzleloading seasons and they didn't drop the hammer either. If these bucks make it through the winter and don't get hit by a car, they might just be fair game next season. If I/we were to have harvested these little bucks, we'd have the same thing next year. Little bucks.
On the other hand, if one of the other neighbors had made a decision to harvest one of these bucks, good for him/her.
^ back up to my statement in bold....^
Depending on the circumstances, I'd most likely have done exactly what your buddy did. He seen what appeared to be a really nice buck, then *made his decision* to harvest it.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2005)

Very encouraging topic and posts. i like it. 

A point or two to consider. Don't worry about the so called inferior buck passing on his genitics. You will have little to no effect in improving the deer herd gene pool unless you use a professional approach of harvesting so called scrub bucks which also includes the selection of does and this area needs to be large in size. Also, any improvements will likely not be apparent for some many years. See present thread, (Genitic harvesting).

The national QDMA does not have a policy for mandatory antler restrictions but favors a voluntary approach. We also know that if antler restrictions are initiated by state agencies. it is more quickly accepted by hunters and in all cases eventully highly endorsed, to the point of becoming a non issue. We hope that these state implemented buck harvesting rules (MAR's) are used as a fast track learning tool and eventually eliminated, then reinstated only as a refresher course when needed.

These hopefully temporary rules should be as painless as possible, Example, as done in PA. if a honest mistake is made, (shooting a six point without brow tines in an 8 point minimum area), the hunter pays a restitution fee of $25 and no points or anything on their record. Another example is taking a six point in an 8 point area, but the buck is 2 1/2 or older, not only does the hunter get no citation or fine, he/she gets to take the entire buck home antlers and all. 

We have heard of the saying, "There's more than one way to skin a cat".

I personnally prefer voluntary but have no problem with a state initiated MAR's program that is designed to be truly effective and as painless as possible.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Ed Spin04 said:


> Another example is taking a six point in an 8 point area, but the buck is 2 1/2 or older, not only does the hunter get no citation or fine, he/she gets to take the entire buck home antlers and all.


Ed, one more thing - if that 6pt. is found to be 2.5 years old or older, the hunter ALSO gets the "Successful Hunter" patch.


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## Gilbey (Oct 26, 2005)

Ours is voluntary as well. I misread, but wanted to come up with that hypothetical, especially being that there are a lot of 16" spread 3.5 year bucks in our area with no brows. Fool ya for sure unless they were getting some grub from a pile!


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Sorry to come in at the tail end of this, but....

The first 3 years of a buck's life the antlers are the best way to identify that buck at a glance. Been doing that for the past 17 years plus hunting multiples states for the past 14 out of those years. I've passed on over 50 bucks in 3 states in one year and at a glance, antlers will tell you a whole lot for those firts 3 age class anywhere you go and once you know how all the area, and all the states relate..it's easy enough that my 3.5 year old can tell the differance between a 2.5 year old and a 3.5+ year old when we watch hunting shows or videos. Also, when you have to count points, and when you experience it, you find it adds but a second or two if that and most of the time you are identifying that animal literally as you are bringing up the rifle to take a shot and with a bow it's not a question.

An AR is the best way for the average guy to be fairly certain of not shooting a yearling buck....that's what it's designed for. If you want to learn the differance between a 5.5 year old and a 3.5 year old...study the body (although the rack changes dramatically as well!  ).

*In the U.P. 3pts on a side protects roughly 80% of all yearlings
*In northern Lower that figure is around 70%
*In southern lower a 4pt rule protects 69%, but a 15" spread criteria protects 85%.

Those a 3 very easy ways to get the average person to protect the bulk of the yearling age class. When you get guys thinking along those lines they may choose to actually protect ALL yearling bucks, like I do on my property and it's very easy. 

Some of the concerns are just no too valid. For example, if you can see 3pts on a side at 200 yards at a running buck....it would be easy to see more if it had it, including brow tines and is that buck too far to shoot? at a running deer? and if it's too brush to count points, should you even be shooting? What about too late to see...same thing...maybe not a safe shot anyways. 

Anyways, AR's are a great way to safeguard against shooting yearling bucks, especially for the average guy, if you pick the right AR for your region. Personally, I go with an 4pt on a side rule on my property, which after hundreds of photos of yearlings over the past several years and probably 40-50 different yearlings, that would have protected all but 2 and even then you would have had to look extremely hard to count the little points to get to 4 on one side to the point I don't think most would have even found the points because again,...they were yearling bucks. At the same time, I show pictures of any 6pt or 7pt 2.5 year olds so guys can tell the differance and know they are fair game, even if they can only count 3pts on a side...13-15" spread, 15" main beams, a couple points in the 5-7" range.

Now, we throw that AR stuff out the window when we hunt 3.5 year olds...but that's a matter of just taking a glance..yep, shooter, bang. In those areas if you have to wonder...it's just not big enough, but an AR is an excellant tool for determing a 2.5 year old from yearling.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Ed Spin04 said:


> Very encouraging topic and posts. i like it.
> 
> A point or two to consider. Don't worry about the so called inferior buck passing on his genitics. You will have little to no effect in improving the deer herd gene pool unless you use a professional approach of harvesting so called scrub bucks which also includes the selection of does and this area needs to be large in size. Also, any improvements will likely not be apparent for some many years. See present thread, (Genitic harvesting).
> 
> ...


*Too many people have been watching too much OLN and the Outdoor Show! :rant: *
*[/color]* 
*How can a group in a membership, that's primarly made up of private land owners, supress the majority of the hunting puplic?*
*This kind of dictatorship will certainly provide larger racked bucks for private property owners and leave the State Land hunter, holding the bag and paying for the program.*
*A mandatory antler system will certainly reduce the numbers of hunters in this State and in the long run, end up costing everyone more.*
*Those hunters who have limited time and or property to hunt will just give up. That's one more child's parent or gardian that will not be teaching him or her to hunt.*
*THIS BUSINESS OF ANTLER MANDATORY ANTERLER RESTRICTIONS IS B.S.*
*IT'S ONLY GOAL IS TO PROVIDE LARGE ANTLERD BUCKS FOR MOSTLY PRIVATE LAND OWNERS AND HUNT CLUBS. THE LITTLE GUY GETS THE "SHAFT" AGAIN.*
*The hunting traditions that have been passed down from generation to generation are going to pot with this.*
*Those of us who are old enough, appreciate our deer herd and remember that it wasn't that long ago, that in Southern MI, if you even found a TRACK, you stayed on it. It wasn't that far back, that you never seen a track down there.*

*As far as I'm concerned, the Conservation Department, now known as the DNR, has done a spectacular job at providing a hunting resourse for those of us in Michigan that want to go deer hunting. And, our chances to harvest a deer are higher than they've ever been.*

*That's what its all about. Not antler size or the number of points on the antlers.*

*Manage the size of the herd, manage its habitat, manage the buck to doe ratio..... I can support that.*

*If QDM ever wanted my support, they just lost it!*
*I apologize, but that post just made me :rant:  :rant: *


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Let's put this one on hold for a little bit - seems eveyone needs to 'chill' just a bit - 

Re-read the thread and digest - for now - we'll take a coffee break - 


ferg....


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