# Bait Sales in 2019



## fishx65 (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm guessing we'll still see corn for sale everywhere but sugar beets and carrots will be slim pickins since they tend to rot pretty quick in warm weather. Bait sales will definitely fall and retailers will give up pretty quick. I can see sales picking up for sunflower seeds so people can watch them sloppy birds feed them deers.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

What are folks supposed to do about bird feeders in there yard ? Will that still be legal ? How about feeding Turkey's in the winter ?


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

I look forward to all the 2019 trail cam pics of bucks at Trophy Rock/Lucky Buck mineral sites.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Why will the guy that stops baiting and his neighbors don’t suffer for following the rules? That guy is going to be lucky enough to realize that hunting is so much better without bait and he is probably going to see some better bucks. Anything has to be better than watching one and two year olds day after day coming to eat there $$$. When I was a kid bait is how I started out hunting because it is what I was taught. Thank god by the time I was 18 I taught myself to hunt with out it. I didn’t know deer got bigger than a large dog other than pictures before I stopped using bait. Stop using bait is the best thing I ever did for my hunting other than start using carbon powder. Both had a significant outcome in my success over the last several years.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

Since weed is legal, maybe “the dopeman” will start slangin’ sugar beets????


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

No-Bama said:


> Pretty big difference here. Dumping a pickup truck full of carrots is a lot different than hunting over a live tree bearing apples, acorns, or otherwise. I was also under the impression that activities outside the scope of widely accepted farming practices, such as brush hogging standing corn, would deem the 20 acres of corn a bait pile, as opposed to a food plot.


Its different as far as the law. But as far as disease there is no difference between apples that fall off a tree or out of a bag. And in the case of CWD, the tree being in the same spot forever increases the risk. But if it makes you feel like a savior of the deer herd, so be it.

You are the beneficiary of the difficulty to regulate food plots and orchards. The MDNR has clearly stated the risks of them, but havent found a way to regulate it.. there is no moral high ground, in perpetuating that risk.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

swampbuck said:


> Its different as far as the law. But as far as disease there is no difference between apples that fall off a tree or out of a bag. And in the case of CWD, the tree being in the same spot forever increases the risk. But if it makes you feel like a savior of the deer herd, so be it.


It's not about being a savior. It's about being better than someone who enjoyed hunting bait.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

more about eliminating competition, thats pretty clear.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

These small land owners that throw out bags of bait will be the biggest losers. Have a couple houses on the outside of the subdivision at my house that have been dropping does every Saturday. The stupid fools do not realize they can be busted for shooting within a 150 yards SZ. As for the food plots watch within a few months that Tubers will can longer be used in food plots. I can not see how the vegetables that can be eaten by multiple deer will help stop the disease spread. Look at your Clover food plots in the spring as see all the deer manure on top of the ground. Plowing under will not stop CWD, only keep it forever in your ground. Nobody is going to be a smiling winner with CWD.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

You would think they would keep baiting legal if they wanted more deer killed.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

swampbuck said:


> more about eliminating competition, thats pretty clear.


Yes that too


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

stickbow shooter said:


> You would think they would keep baiting legal if they wanted more deer killed.


I think a similar number could be killed. Thing is, the population will probably have to increase to get to that point.


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## ongo (Oct 1, 2017)

Chessieman said:


> Have a couple houses on the outside of the subdivision at my house that have been dropping does every Saturday. The stupid fools do not realize they can be busted for shooting within a 150 yards SZ.


Just saying, doesn't matter to me, but;
On page 16 of the 2018 Mi Hunting Digest it states that you can shoot within the 150 yd safety zone if you have written permission from the land owner.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

stickbow shooter said:


> You would think they would keep baiting legal if they wanted more deer killed.


Me too. They will have fewer people hunting, fewer deer killed and less $ from tag sales. Don't get it. I hunt public land and have done well with and without bait. I plan to call in every single infraction I see. I will be pissed if the DNR does not enforce it, if they don't it is pointless.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

You no longer have to call in. Text will work on the RAP line.

Use google Earth to bring up the bait pile location.
Drop a pin on the illegal bait pile location.
Latitude and Longitude will appear on the aerial photo background.
Take a screen shot.
Text the pic to the RAP line.

They say a picture is worth a 1,000 words.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Me too. They will have fewer people hunting, fewer deer killed and less $ from tag sales. Don't get it. I hunt public land and have done well with and without bait. I plan to call in every single infraction I see. I will be pissed if the DNR does not enforce it, if they don't it is pointless.


They will make up for lost tag sales by writing tickets. You would think they would be enforcing it pretty heavy for the money and if they are that serious about it.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

noshow said:


> They will make up for lost tag sales by writing tickets. You would think they would be enforcing it pretty heavy for the money and if they are that serious about it.


I hope they do.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

noshow said:


> They will make up for lost tag sales by writing tickets. You would think they would be enforcing it pretty heavy for the money and if they are that serious about it.


Fines do not go to the DNRs budget.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Luv2hunteup said:


> Fines do not go to the DNRs budget.


That's just like when you turn in someone for trespassing and violating ones property and the landowner doesn't see a dime of the fine. They violated the landowners property that they pay for and pay taxes. It should be double the fine for trespassing. Have to the landowner and the other half where it goes now. Land owner compensation.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

noshow said:


> That's just like when you turn in someone for trespassing and violating ones property and the landowner doesn't see a dime of the fine. They violated the landowners property that they pay for and pay taxes. It should be double the fine for trespassing. Have to the landowner and the other half where it goes now. Land owner compensation.


You can always sue the offender if you think money is a deterrent.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Me too. They will have fewer people hunting, fewer deer killed and less $ from tag sales. Don't get it. I hunt public land and have done well with and without bait. I plan to call in every single infraction I see. I will be pissed if the DNR does not enforce it, if they don't it is pointless.


Problem I see is does the dnr really have the man power to keep up with enforcing bait restrictions? Can you imagine how many calls and texts there going to get every day. I really think man power is going to be an issue.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

noshow said:


> That's just like when you turn in someone for trespassing and violating ones property and the landowner doesn't see a dime of the fine. They violated the landowners property that they pay for and pay taxes. It should be double the fine for trespassing. Have to the landowner and the other half where it goes now. Land owner compensation.


The land owner that was violated should get the fine money( stiff penalty too) and the db should have to pay all the court costs too.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

BUCK/PIKE said:


> I know tons of people who bait.they look at me like I'm an alien when I tell them I dont need bait to kill deer..
> Alot of these guys know no other way of hunting.im sure some will break the law just like they did last time.
> I also think this will be 1 more thing that drops license sales again.
> There are alot of people who dont know how to hunt without sitting on a pile.
> ...


No one taught me how to hunt with out bait. I learned on my own because my mentors when I started out only hunted bait. With the internet (Information Age)and you tube it’s not that tough to learn how to hunt without bait this day in age. If baiters want to put in the effort to learn how to hunt with out bait it’s not rocket science to learn how to hunt deer sign and natural movement. The info is literally in your hand if you have a smart phone. Just have to actually put in a little effort scouting. But you can narrow that down without ever putting boots on the ground if you know how to decipher an aerial map. Personally I feel that if baiting is banned statewide it should be illegal for my business to sell bait. Kind of just makes sense that the ban of bait and not being legally allowed to sell it should go hand in hand. 


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

johnhunter247 said:


> Problem I see is does the dnr really have the man power to keep up with enforcing bait restrictions? Can you imagine how many calls and texts there going to get every day. I really think man power is going to be an issue.
> 
> ........


Agree. A Google search shows that Michigan has over 19,000 LEOs. 190 CO's for our 83 counties. 

L & O


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## Ken (Dec 6, 2000)

Acorn sales probably will skyrocket. lol. If you are hunting where there are oaks, who is to say where the scattered acorns are coming from. Or people will just go to liquid/mineral baits like molasses, deer crack, etc.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Liver and Onions said:


> Agree. A Google search shows that Michigan has over 19,000 LEOs. 190 CO's for our 83 counties.
> 
> L & O


Maybe they should involve local police, state police and sheriffs departments to help with enforcement. Double the fines and that department gets half. I really don’t see any other way. With everything else the co’s have to do in there job there is no way they will be able to keep up with dealing with baiting.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

U of M Fan said:


> Since weed is legal, maybe “the dopeman” will start slangin’ sugar beets????


Can i sell them in grams?. I wouldn't have any grass to cut


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## ongo (Oct 1, 2017)

Here's a thought. If I till sugar beets instead of manure into my garden at the end of the growing season, is it Baiting or Composting?


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

johnhunter247 said:


> Maybe they should involve local police, state police and sheriffs departments to help with enforcement. Double the fines and that department gets half. I really don’t see any other way. With everything else the co’s have to do in there job there is no way they will be able to keep up with dealing with baiting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But most of those guys don't like getting out of their cars.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I can just see it now, the courts will be clogged up with evil bait tickets lol. Judges are going to be having fits.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> I can just see it now, the courts will be clogged up with evil bait tickets lol. Judges are going to be having fits.


Well it's better then us weed smokers, Good bye bait squatters


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## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

Ken said:


> Acorn sales probably will skyrocket. lol. If you are hunting where there are oaks, who is to say where the scattered acorns are coming from. Or people will just go to liquid/mineral baits like molasses, deer crack, etc.


Have you seen the price of acorns?


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## buckman66 (Nov 3, 2004)

Jimbos said:


> Have you seen the price of acorns?


Sunflower seeds will be the ticket. You can’t see them once they are spread amongst the oak tree leaves.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

johnhunter247 said:


> Maybe they should involve local police, state police and sheriffs departments to help with enforcement. Double the fines and that department gets half. I really don’t see any other way. With everything else the co’s have to do in there job there is no way they will be able to keep up with dealing with baiting.


I'm quite sure that no one other than COs will be dealing with a deer baiting call. 

L & O


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## No-Bama (Jan 1, 2013)

johnhunter247 said:


> Why will the guy that stops baiting and his neighbors don’t suffer for following the rules? That guy is going to be lucky enough to realize that hunting is so much better without bait and he is probably going to see some better bucks. Anything has to be better than watching one and two year olds day after day coming to eat there $$$. When I was a kid bait is how I started out hunting because it is what I was taught. Thank god by the time I was 18 I taught myself to hunt with out it. I didn’t know deer got bigger than a large dog other than pictures before I stopped using bait. Stop using bait is the best thing I ever did for my hunting other than start using carbon powder. Both had a significant outcome in my success over the last
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because there's plenty of guys that are happy seeing yearlings and fawns over their bait. They wonder why they don't ever see any bucks, but are entirely content with the doe they put in the freezer each year. 

If that guy stops baiting, the deer he sees every year may very likely move on to the neighbor next door that continues to illegally bait.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

noshow said:


> That's just like when you turn in someone for trespassing and violating ones property and the landowner doesn't see a dime of the fine. They violated the landowners property that they pay for and pay taxes. It should be double the fine for trespassing. Have to the landowner and the other half where it goes now. Land owner compensation.


You Get a reward if the fine exceeds 10k I believe.

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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> But most of those guys don't like getting out of their cars.


Those guys are stretched just as thin as the DNR


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

No-Bama said:


> Because there's plenty of guys that are happy seeing yearlings and fawns over their bait. They wonder why they don't ever see any bucks, but are entirely content with the doe they put in the freezer each year.
> 
> If that guy stops baiting, the deer he sees every year may very likely move on to the neighbor next door that continues to illegally bait.


That is a crock. You should see the bucks that come out to where my grandsons put some ears of corn a week ago. Same in the back . Grandson shot a 9 point during the youth hunt and he had had put out 3 ears of corn


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Scout 2 said:


> That is a crock. You should see the bucks that come out to where my grandsons put some ears of corn a week ago. Same in the back . Grandson shot a 9 point during the youth hunt and he had had put out 3 ears of corn


Why is that a crock? How old was the 9pt? Four or five years old? I have never once heard of a legitimate mature deer being killed on a bait pile. Never.... Maybe a two year old nine point but not a five year old. Please share the trail cam pics of the mature bucks your grandson has coming to his ears of corn right now in the daylight. I’m definitely intrigued...


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

johnhunter247 said:


> Why is that a crock? How old was the 9pt? Four or five years old? I have never once heard of a legitimate mature deer being killed on a bait pile. Never.... Maybe a two year old nine point but not a five year old. Please share the trail cam pics of the mature bucks your grandson has coming to his ears of corn right now in the daylight. I’m definitely intrigued...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have an 11 point on the wall and it was 210 lbs dressed out and was 6 years old. The 9 point was aged by the DNR at 6 years old. The ones at the end of the house come in right at dark and the bait has been gone for several days. I use to have a vid I took of 2 12 points coming into a spin feeder and they would come in every night before it went off stand and look at it until it went off. They came up missing just before bow season never saw them again


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## jatc (Oct 24, 2008)

johnhunter247 said:


> Why is that a crock? How old was the 9pt? Four or five years old? I have never once heard of a legitimate mature deer being killed on a bait pile. Never.... Maybe a two year old nine point but not a five year old. Please share the trail cam pics of the mature bucks your grandson has coming to his ears of corn right now in the daylight. I’m definitely intrigued...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You have obviously never hunted in the western UP.... Not uncommon at all to see 4 1/2 + yo killed off of bait piles. Majority killed are trailing does to the pile, but have had a few killed in camp that had their nose buried in corn or beets over the years. A bunch of those large Canadian bucks you see are off of bait piles as well.


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## No-Bama (Jan 1, 2013)

Scout 2 said:


> That is a crock. You should see the bucks that come out to where my grandsons put some ears of corn a week ago. Same in the back . Grandson shot a 9 point during the youth hunt and he had had put out 3 ears of corn


I'm sure every property is different, but the youth hunt doesn't count; deer that time of year are as unpressured as they come.

When I first started hunting, the guys I learned from hunted over bait. It was all I knew. I'd set up cameras over every bait pile. Thousands of videos, not one mature buck. Mostly fawns, small doe and yearling bucks. I began to think that was all this property had to offer. 

Then I started to do some scouting. Got off the beaten path and out of the box blinds. I started setting my cameras up in draws and funnels, water sources, scrape lines and pinch points. I was amazed at what I saw. That amazement continued as I started to hunt these locations, and started seeing the type of deer that I never imagined existed. They were also acting entirely different than the deer that cautiously made their way into a bait pile. They were in their natural environment rather than falling victim to their stomachs, and approaching an unnatural pile of food that they instinctively knew was perilous. 

Don't get me wrong, I have zero objection to the guys that choose to hunt over bait when legal. But I'll be the first one to say that it's a completely different hunting experience than what I've grown to appreciate.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

No-Bama said:


> I'm sure every property is different, but the youth hunt doesn't count; deer that time of year are as unpressured as they come.
> 
> When I first started hunting, the guys I learned from hunted over bait. It was all I knew. I'd set up cameras over every bait pile. Thousands of videos, not one mature buck. Mostly fawns, small doe and yearling bucks. I began to think that was all this property had to offer.
> 
> ...


What is more amazing is that when baiting you never saw those older bucks during the rut either.


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

No-Bama said:


> I'm sure every property is different, but the youth hunt doesn't count; deer that time of year are as unpressured as they come.
> 
> When I first started hunting, the guys I learned from hunted over bait. It was all I knew. I'd set up cameras over every bait pile. Thousands of videos, not one mature buck. Mostly fawns, small doe and yearling bucks. I began to think that was all this property had to offer.
> 
> ...


I have not used bait for many years and I very seldom sit in a blind. I have many natural blinds on here that I use instead. All the bucks I have shot when we use rto bait came next to or within 50 yards of the bait. The biggest one is a 14 point. I use food plots but do not sit on them. I let a guy hunt here with a muzzleloader and he is disbled . He used bait and saw deer every day but did not have a doe permit and the bucks he saw were not legal.The last night of season he stopped at the house and was all excited. He saw the biggest buck he ever saw and guess where it was headed for his bait. It was in lot of new growth poplar and he could not get a clear shot. He was going to hunt with his crossbow but he rolled his snow dog and broke 3 ribs so he is out fore the season


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

johnhunter247 said:


> Why is that a crock? How old was the 9pt? Four or five years old? I have never once heard of a legitimate mature deer being killed on a bait pile. Never.... Maybe a two year old nine point but not a five year old. Please share the trail cam pics of the mature bucks your grandson has coming to his ears of corn right now in the daylight. I’m definitely intrigued...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know a guy who used bait to kill a 4.5 year old in Michigan. 
But he knew the buck would check the bait from 150 yards away (nearest thick cover)
He killed the buck mid day as it cruised down wind of the bait. 
His name is Andy May. 
(Google Andy May hunting)


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I know of several 4.5 and older bucks killed over bait piles. And yes they were in daylight.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

stickbow shooter said:


> I know of several 4.5 and older bucks killed over bait piles. And yes they were in daylight.


Yep, deny the truth to think otherwise. Hundreds of mature bucks here and in other states have been taken with the help of bait.

L & O


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I wonder how many guys that are opposed to baiting are fine with it if they hunted Saskatchewan or Alberta ?


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

I know you guys have trail cams on your bait piles. I’m definitely intrigued... make me a believer. Show me some pics of 4 year old plus bucks on your bait piles here in Michigan during hunting season in the daylight. It’s just one of those things you need to see to believe. I have zero against bait piles. I believe anyone should hunt anyway they want and kill what ever they want. Stories about doing it are like when I was a kid and every piece of state land I hunted had other hunters telling me about the huge 14pt running around. Show proof! As far as I’m concerned mature bucks don’t eat at bait piles in the daylight during hunting season when there is lots of human pressure around. Maybe late August but not late November. I used bait the first five years of my hunting career and never seen a decent buck. Every single person I know that baits has never killed a mature buck. They have killed a few decent two and three year olds bow hunting but never a mature deer. So make me a believer. Let’s see the trail cam pics. The proof...


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## graybeard (Jan 4, 2006)

And a three year old buck is not a mature deer?Wow


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

johnhunter247 said:


> I know you guys have trail cams on your bait piles. I’m definitely intrigued... make me a believer. Show me some pics of 4 year old plus bucks on your bait piles here in Michigan during hunting season in the daylight. It’s just one of those things you need to see to believe. I have zero against bait piles. I believe anyone should hunt anyway they want and kill what ever they want. Stories about doing it are like when I was a kid and every piece of state land I hunted had other hunters telling me about the huge 14pt running around. Show proof! As far as I’m concerned mature bucks don’t eat at bait piles in the daylight during hunting season when there is lots of human pressure around. Maybe late August but not late November. I used bait the first five years of my hunting career and never seen a decent buck. Every single person I know that baits has never killed a mature buck. They have killed a few decent two and three year olds bow hunting but never a mature deer. So make me a believer. Let’s see the trail cam pics. The proof...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well since I don't bait I can't show you pics of a mature buck on trail cam. But I have seen the dead bucks after the hunt.


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## jatc (Oct 24, 2008)

johnhunter247 said:


> I know you guys have trail cams on your bait piles. I’m definitely intrigued... make me a believer. Show me some pics of 4 year old plus bucks on your bait piles here in Michigan during hunting season in the daylight. It’s just one of those things you need to see to believe. I have zero against bait piles. I believe anyone should hunt anyway they want and kill what ever they want. Stories about doing it are like when I was a kid and every piece of state land I hunted had other hunters telling me about the huge 14pt running around. Show proof! As far as I’m concerned mature bucks don’t eat at bait piles in the daylight during hunting season when there is lots of human pressure around. Maybe late August but not late November. I used bait the first five years of my hunting career and never seen a decent buck. Every single person I know that baits has never killed a mature buck. They have killed a few decent two and three year olds bow hunting but never a mature deer. So make me a believer. Let’s see the trail cam pics. The proof...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The large timbered tracts of the UP are a completely different beast than heavily pressured state lands and farm country of the SLP. Most of the places I have hunted in the western UP, there are more mature bucks than hunters per square mile during gun season. That simple fact makes all the difference in the world when it comes to effectiveness of baiting for older bucks.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> I look forward to all the 2019 trail cam pics of bucks at Trophy Rock/Lucky Buck mineral sites.


You'll see my pics...Few weeks ago I stopped by the Lucky Buck headquarters in Hillsdale to by a couple 40 lb bags and the guy told me their orders haven't slowed a bit because of the ban...Good luck with this ban...

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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

jatc said:


> The large timbered tracts of the UP are a completely different beast than heavily pressured state lands and farm country of the SLP. Most of the places I have hunted in the western UP, there are more mature bucks than hunters per square mile during gun season. That simple fact makes all the difference in the world when it comes to effectiveness of baiting for older bucks.


I’ve never hunted the upper. So your saying there are more mature bucks than hunters up there? Sounds like the upper should be a big buck destination like Iowa, Missouri,Kansas. That’s definitely a first I’ve heard of that. One of those best kept hidden secrets. If that’s true about the effectiveness of baiting up there for mature bucks maybe no one is willing to share the proof(pics) because they have a little too much bait on the ground in the pics. Honestly baiting will never be at the top of my list for tactics for trying to kill a mature buck which is the only deer I hunt. I’m in the same boat with no bama. I agree with him. Everone I know that baits , some have been hunting more than 40 years, have never killed a mature buck. They see and kill the same type of deer no bama described year in and year out and I guess there happy with that. I don’t see any problem with that if there happy. But as far as the thread goes, if the baiters that are losing there style of hunting because of the ban take the initiative and are willing to learn, it’s not that difficult, and are probably going to have better hunting in the long run. 


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## jatc (Oct 24, 2008)

johnhunter247 said:


> I’ve never hunted the upper. So your saying there are more mature bucks than hunters up there? Sounds like the upper should be a big buck destination like Iowa, Missouri,Kansas. That’s definitely a first I’ve heard of that. One of those best kept hidden secrets. If that’s true about the effectiveness of baiting up there for mature bucks maybe no one is willing to share the proof(pics) because they have a little too much bait on the ground in the pics. Honestly baiting will never be at the top of my list for tactics for trying to kill a mature buck which is the only deer I hunt. I’m in the same boat with no bama. I agree with him. Everone I know that baits , some have been hunting more than 40 years, have never killed a mature buck. They see and kill the same type of deer no bama described year in and year out and I guess there happy with that. I don’t see any problem with that if there happy. But as far as the thread goes, if the baiters that are losing there style of hunting because of the ban take the initiative and are willing to learn, it’s not that difficult, and are probably going to have better hunting in the long run.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup that is exactly what I am saying. There are many areas of the UP where there are more mature bucks than hunters. The reason it isn’t one of the areas you see featured in North American Whitetail is that even at 4 1/2 years of age, many bucks will not grow more than about 110” of antler. Long winters with rediculous snow cover and sub-par feed will cause that. The UP is just a very unique ecosystem.


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## Craves (Feb 16, 2010)

graybeard said:


> And a three year old buck is not a mature deer?Wow


I thought it was 4.5 years old, and confirmed it on The Google. 

If it is on the internet...


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## Craves (Feb 16, 2010)

If the DNR/NRC would do a better job of educating hunters why they are going to a bait ban, it might be a lot less traumatic to those that have only hunted over bait.

Additionally, they could go with a 1 or 2 gallon limit of single bite bait like shell corn or bird seed and probably lose a lot less hunters while still doing the educating.

If its & buts were candy & nuts...


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## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

Craves said:


> If the DNR/NRC would do a better job of educating hunters why they are going to a bait ban, it might be a lot less traumatic to those that have only hunted over bait.
> 
> Additionally, they could go with a 1 or 2 gallon limit of single bite bait like shell corn or bird seed and probably lose a lot less hunters while still doing the educating.
> 
> If its & buts were candy & nuts...


They've done a good job educating unless a specific hunter has their head in the sand, what's teed off alot of hunters, myself included is their lame reasoning for still permitting food plots. It's a joke and makes them targeting one segment of hunter while leaving the privileged land owners alone.


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

I bought a bag of bait today. Had some for supper tonight. Taste real good


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Deer liked clover last year so I am going to give them 4 more acres of it this year.


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

jatc said:


> Yup that is exactly what I am saying. There are many areas of the UP where there are more mature bucks than hunters. The reason it isn’t one of the areas you see featured in North American Whitetail is that even at 4 1/2 years of age, many bucks will not grow more than about 110” of antler. Long winters with rediculous snow cover and sub-par feed will cause that. The UP is just a very unique ecosystem.


Northern lower also


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

Does the DNR use drones for surveillance?


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

mattawanhunter said:


> Does the DNR use drones for surveillance?


I have heard they use them in the summer here over the lakes. I have not seen one so it may be just somebody starting a story. But it does seem like a help to them


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

sureshot006 said:


> I dont think they necessarily shot themselves in the foot... I think they'll do what they can with what they've got.


Well I hope they and the "PR" team are working on a way to walk back the ill thought through bait ban yet save some bit of face.


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

feedinggrounds said:


> Yeah and some hunters do only care about themselves, You will have that. No law against that. Just a lot less help to fight any anti hunting legislation that pops up. But you can handle that too, I suppose.


Just tape some big horns on it and all will be fine


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

feedinggrounds said:


> Well I hope they and the "PR" team are working on a way to walk back the ill thought through bait ban yet save some bit of face.


They had to do something. Most other states have done the same. The studies are there to SUGGEST that baiting spreads cwd faster than not, and they cant ban agriculture which appears to be worse.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

Scout 2 said:


> I have heard they use them in the summer here over the lakes. I have not seen one so it may be just somebody starting a story. But it does seem like a help to them


 Only so much can be seen and done with one. If the forest is slightly dense getting close enough to spot scattered bait would be tough with ground cover and duff. Someone will shoot one with buckshot, we will read about it, no doubt.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

sureshot006 said:


> They had to do something. Most other states have done the same. The studies are there to SUGGEST that baiting spreads cwd faster than not, and they cant ban agriculture which appears to be worse.


"suggest" is the key word. Studies also confirm a lot le$$ hunters results in less tag$ bought. A lot less hunters also result in a lot more deer in time.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

feedinggrounds said:


> Yeah and some hunters do only care about themselves, You will have that. No law against that. Just a lot less help to fight any anti hunting legislation that pops up. But you can handle that too, I suppose.


So your saying the whiny quitters will turn into anti hunters who won't support hunting??? If that's the case, they were never true hunters in the 1st place.


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

MossyHorns said:


> So your saying the whiny quitters will turn into anti hunters who won't support hunting??? If that's the case, they were never true hunters in the 1st place.


Maybe so but who will be on the short end of the stick after the vote. I am guessing the hunters


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

MossyHorns said:


> So your saying the whiny quitters will turn into anti hunters who won't support hunting??? If that's the case, they were never true hunters in the 1st place.


No... think long term. Those that quit will not pass it on as they may otherwise have.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

MossyHorns said:


> So your saying the whiny quitters will turn into anti hunters who won't support hunting??? If that's the case, they were never true hunters in the 1st place.


I am saying they may or may not. Or just not have the care to fight what will now be your fight. They won't have a dog in it anymore. And just how it that going to benefit you? I am sure you will have a witty comeback.


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

feedinggrounds said:


> Only so much can be seen and done with one. If the forest is slightly dense getting close enough to spot scattered bait would be tough with ground cover and duff. Someone will shoot one with buckshot, we will read about it, no doubt.


I would think that the tree line would not help keeping control of one also. I ususally see the local CO every spring and if I think of it I will ask him


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## Craves (Feb 16, 2010)

feedinggrounds said:


> How can they effectively educate hunters?? It remains legal to grow bait, plant RR ready sugar beats and grow all kinds of other baits. Then try to educate/bullsn*t hunters into the thought that 2 gallons of beets, carrots, corn or whatever is bad. I want to see hear that educational speech.


Well...I guess a part of the education process could be discouraging land owners from growing beets or any other crop that would be more than single bite food in their plots.

Nothing is going to be perfect, but upping the level of education MAY help to at least slow the spread.

I specifically mentioned single bite bait for a reason...anyone who has ever hunted over corn in small amounts has watched just about everything in the woods come to get some. 2 gallons of corn is not going to last the night in most cases.

How can they educate hunters? I'm sure there are plenty of ways to do that, but there is no need to discuss that here.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Scout 2 said:


> I would think that the tree line would not help keeping control of one also. I ususally see the local CO every spring and if I think of it I will ask him


Tree lines would not be a problem at all. They can fly them high and they can control them using the camera.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

feedinggrounds said:


> Won't take the local hunters long to figure out who is dropping he dimes on them.


Can't do the time, don't do the crime.


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## Martin Looker (Jul 16, 2015)

I like to buy those deer apples because they are way cheaper than buying from an orchard. I slice them up and put them thru the dehydrator and make apple chips out of them. The bad ones go to the rabbits.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

graybeard said:


> And a three year old buck is not a mature deer?Wow


Absolutely not. At three your about two years shy of seeing that bucks potential. Four year olds are on the brink of maturity but not quite there yet. Five and six is when you will see there potential. The fact that this needs to be explained is where wow comes in...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

BUCK/PIKE said:


> I know tons of people who bait.they look at me like I'm an alien when I tell them I dont need bait to kill deer..
> Alot of these guys know no other way of hunting.im sure some will break the law just like they did last time.
> I also think this will be 1 more thing that drops license sales again.
> There are alot of people who dont know how to hunt without sitting on a pile.
> ...


I don’t believe there is any property that you can’t get deer to come on if your willing to do some habitat work. There are many things you can do to attract deer that don’t include bait. Actually there are things you can do to pretty much any property that will attract a lot more deer than bait will. I’ve seen wide open fields turned into deer havens. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

johnhunter247 said:


> I don’t believe there is any property that you can’t get deer to come on if your willing to do some habitat work. There are many things you can do to attract deer that don’t include bait. Actually there are things you can do to pretty much any property that will attract a lot more deer than bait will. I’ve seen wide open fields turned into deer havens.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep. Years and thousands. If that is what's required, well, we will see how many follow through.


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## LabtechLewis (Nov 20, 2008)

G20man said:


> Some what correct.
> Yes they are easier to kill than an older buck. So is a doe.
> Yes they taste great. So does a doe.
> Yes they respond to bait well. So does a doe.
> Yes it is legal. So is a doe.


In addition to what has already been stated (relative abundance and lack of wariness), I truly believe that _ease of identification_ is another deciding factor. I have, at times, spent enough time trying to sort out does and fawns in a group that the shot opportunity passes. Why? Because I didn't want to shoot a fawn (for ego and quantity reasons). 

This is not typically an issue with yearling bucks. Usually you can identify them pretty quickly by posture, neck, eyes and antlers -- at least enough to know it's not a doe -- and especially if they are alone or moving through some scattered obstructions. 

I think that is the biggest factor in keeping the yearling harvest % high. I think it is a stretch to think that very many people are killing yearling bucks _for the antlers_ (and this is coming from a guy with plenty of yearling antlers on display).


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

For those hunters who must brag about their success, there aren't many out there who are going to talk up the taking of an antlerless deer. Yes, antlers are very important to many deer hunters. I am glad I don't belong to that group.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

LabtechLewis said:


> In addition to what has already been stated (relative abundance and lack of wariness), I truly believe that _ease of identification_ is another deciding factor. I have, at times, spent enough time trying to sort out does and fawns in a group that the shot opportunity passes. Why? Because I didn't want to shoot a fawn (for ego and quantity reasons).
> 
> This is not typically an issue with yearling bucks. Usually you can identify them pretty quickly by posture, neck, eyes and antlers -- at least enough to know it's not a doe -- and especially if they are alone or moving through some scattered obstructions.
> 
> I think that is the biggest factor in keeping the yearling harvest % high. I think it is a stretch to think that very many people are killing yearling bucks _for the antlers_ (and this is coming from a guy with plenty of yearling antlers on display).


I believe almost all hunters including myself would rather shoot a buck than a doe because a buck is the animal that is talked about in all circles of deer hunting. 
Because a yearling buck is easier to kill due to his lack of experience and because there are more targets than their older cohorts is why they are killed in high numbers. 
Trust me if 3.5 year old 8 points were as plentiful as yearling bucks our harvest data would be 50% 3.5 year olds.

A yearling buck is a doe with antlers and balls at the end of the day.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

jiggin is livin said:


> Very true. I never said I only shoot Young bucks. But I don't really care if it's a 4yr old as much as if it's a nice rack. Age means little too me. It's a cool talking point, but it not any sort of deciding factor in taking an animal.Right now, last year and every year before that. I don't judge my success on inches of antler. I hunt for the reasons that deer hunting is so popular in Michigan. IMO we are the only state that has it right. Deer camp, family and friends, laughs and venison.
> 
> Sent from my E6810 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Nothing wrong with those reasons.
I think most of us hunt for those reasons. 
I have no interest in shooting small bucks but 
I still enjoy every minute I spend outdoors chasing deer. Successful or not.


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## jiggin is livin (Jan 7, 2011)

G20man said:


> Nothing wrong with those reasons.
> I think most of us hunt for those reasons.
> I have no interest in shooting small bucks but
> I still enjoy every minute I spend outdoors chasing deer. Successful or not.


That's just it. It's a personal thing, much like religion. 

I don't think less of people who only hunt mature bucks. But I don't think less of the person who shoots the first couple they see got the freezer and move on either. 

Sent from my E6810 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

G20man said:


> We? Who's we?
> Are you speaking for all hunters who will kill a yearling buck or use bait?
> 
> How close does a wary doe have to be?
> ...


Mature does are much more wary and smarter, making them much harder to shoot than a young buck, I said that. Why play antler gotcha with me? I will shoot any legal buck from 4 inch spike to a thurdy pointer. They target young bucks because they are stupid easy targets. When I say we, I refer to my hunting circle, on our land. But a lot of hunters feel the same way, or forced APR's would not be needed.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

sniper said:


> I thought you didn't care about my posts?...lol..Ahhh Truth comes out..
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


You sure care about mine. You guys are like the Democrats of the deer forum. lol


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

feedinggrounds said:


> Mature does are much more wary and smarter, making them much harder to shoot than a young buck, I said that. Why play antler gotcha with me? I will shoot any legal buck from 4 inch spike to a thurdy pointer. They target young bucks because they are stupid easy targets. When I say we, I refer to my hunting circle, on our land. But a lot of hunters feel the same way, or forced APR's would not be needed.


Yes a mature doe is pretty tough to kill.
But the woods are filled with does that aren't mature. 
This year's fawns will be a yearing doe next year. Just like the buck fawns. 
Neither are difficult to kill. 
Neither is a 2.5 year old buck or doe. 
Except a 2.5 year old buck is not as available. 

I've been hunting a long time. 
I keep track of all my sightings. 
In that tracking I keep note of deer I could of had a shot at but didn't take the shot. 
Does by far beat the bucks in sightings and shot opportunity. 
Yes yearling bucks are more visible and offer more shot opportunities than 2.5 plus aged bucks. 
At the end of the day I could burn every tag legally allowed on antlerless deer if I chose.

So I can't believe that hunters ( not you or your circle) choose to shoot yearling bucks because they are so easy because does are more difficult. 
It's ok. I like antlers too. I get it. As I've heard others say, " I'd have more respect if they just admitted it was about the antlers"


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

G20man said:


> I believe almost all hunters including myself would rather shoot a buck than a doe because a buck is the animal that is talked about in all circles of deer hunting.
> Because a yearling buck is easier to kill due to his lack of experience and because there are more targets than their older cohorts is why they are killed in high numbers.
> Trust me if 3.5 year old 8 points were as plentiful as yearling bucks our harvest data would be 50% 3.5 year olds.
> 
> A yearling buck is a doe with antlers and balls at the end of the day.


Nope. 
A buck is not a doe. Especially at fawning time.

You may need less fawns/deer/recruitment where you hunt.. Go ahead and quit killing bucks then. And focus on doe. If you needed more doe you'd quit preaching kill doe like you are here. Well ,maybe you would. But then you don't seem to follow any logic in managing deer by substituting a doe for a buck and then calling a buck a doe....

Killing the oldest bucks ain't helping the herd anymore than killing the youngest.
If a hunter chooses one deer over another , your substitution choice is not going to affect that hunter unless a guest on your property. You get that ,right?


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Waif said:


> Nope.
> A buck is not a doe. Especially at fawning time.
> 
> You may need less fawns/deer/recruitment where you hunt.. Go ahead and quit killing bucks then. And focus on doe. If you needed more doe you'd quit preaching kill doe like you are here. Well ,maybe you would. But then you don't seem to follow any logic in managing deer by substituting a doe for a buck and then calling a buck a doe....
> ...


First of all none of this discussion as of late has anything to do with management. 
Nor have I advocated shooting a doe. 

To help you catch up. 

It was stated yearling bucks are killed because they are so easy. 
My question is why not does. They are more plentiful and quite easy to kill, most of the time just as easy as a yearling buck. 

It's ok I know why and completely understand. 
Antlers plain and simple. 

And since you seem to be having a hard time here. 
Take the antlers off a yearling buck. I bet it looks just like a doe unless you look between it's legs.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

G20man said:


> First of all none of this discussion as of late has anything to do with management.
> Nor have I advocated shooting a doe.
> 
> To help you catch up.
> ...


No , they don't look the same. Seriously. 

Yearling bucks are easy where they are numerous. And you already mentioned they are killed in higher numbers due to there being more of them. That can make it easy. IF you are seeing them.
Remember ,your sites and past experiences do not represent all tag buyers...
Until you have the population numbers for a given site you are not managing by what can most be afforded to remove simply by targeting doe. Or yearling bucks ,or any given age or sex.. And yearling bucks can be afforded on multiple sites.


You've never spoke with or heard or read of of a hunter willing to kill a yearling that has not?
Not that you care ,but it matters to them when you propose raising the antler size limit.

Where's that quote I found earlier of the effects on buck harvest with an A.P.R.???

[The outcome is that in the first year, 42% of bucks are protected. That drops to 36 in year 2 and down to 33% in year 3. In this model, even if you were to protect 90% of the yearlings from harvest, the percentage protected would be 54% the first year but drops to a steady state of 40%.

Likewise, even if you take non-hunting mortality to 50%, the % protected (off the table) only goes to 42%.

Total numbers of bucks goes up from 1000 to 1291 (29% increase). But harvestable bucks drop from 1000 to 680 (down 32%).]

Now , let's have more hunters take your advice and kill doe (where allowed/"needed").
Subtract the buck fawn recruitment from the dead doe for the following year , and of course each year after in that and also in subsequent age classes if doe kills remain increased.

That reduced buck recruitment will reduce that number of harvest-able bucks downward from 32%. 
Just how far do you want to reduce it by killing doe? Mr. manager?


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

G20man said:


> First of all none of this discussion as of late has anything to do with management.
> Nor have I advocated shooting a doe.
> 
> To help you catch up.
> ...


Guess you have not hunted older does than


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

QUOTE G20man{ First of all none of this discussion as of late has anything to do with management. 
Nor have I advocated shooting a doe. ]




G20man said:


> Some what correct.
> Yes they are easier to kill than an older buck. So is a doe.
> Yes they taste great. So does a doe.
> Yes they respond to bait well. So does a doe.
> ...



Jack Daniel's , or Johnny Walker ,or whoever you share your keyboard with is really contradicting you.

Further , if you are practicing A.P.R.'s as promoted ,you are killing doe.

Maybe the kill ratio is related to , too many hunters like yourself would rather target a buck instead of a doe?


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Waif said:


> No , they don't look the same. Seriously.
> 
> Yearling bucks are easy where they are numerous. And you already mentioned they are killed in higher numbers due to there being more of them. That can make it easy. IF you are seeing them.
> Remember ,your sites and past experiences do not represent all tag buyers...
> ...


My advice?
My advice is if you want to shoot a buck over a doe then do so. 
If you are trying to manage your herd you shoot what's best for the herd. 
If you want to shoot older bucks because they have big antlers then say so.
If you want to shoot young bucks because a buck makes you feel more accomplished then just say so.

Using the excuse that they are easier than a doe is ridiculous.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Waif said:


> QUOTE G20man{ First of all none of this discussion as of late has anything to do with management.
> Nor have I advocated shooting a doe. ]
> 
> 
> ...


I don't drink 
I don't practice Aprs.
I hunt for big bucks.
I shoot does if asked or if I need one for the freezer.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Scout 2 said:


> Guess you have not hunted older does than


I don't care what age the doe is. 
Usually won't shoot a fawn because they are small.
Like I said. 
I could fill every available tag with antlerless deer every year if I wanted.
Hell I could kill 2 bucks a year if any buck would do. Even under aprs on public land if that was the case. 
Without bait or food plots.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

G20man said:


> Using the excuse that they are easier than a doe is ridiculous.


Lol.
Set out to kill a doe this morning. 
Took 15 minutes into legal shooting.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

G20man said:


> I don't care what age the doe is.
> Usually won't shoot a fawn because they are small.
> Like I said.
> I could fill every available tag with antlerless deer every year if I wanted.
> ...


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## Milosh (Dec 28, 2018)

G20man said:


> I don't care what age the doe is.
> Usually won't shoot a fawn because they are small.
> Like I said.
> I could fill every available tag with antlerless deer every year if I wanted.
> ...


I agree with what you said. The only thing that i’ll add from the doe perspective is that normally you have a whole family group(s) and all those eyes can be tricky.


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## Milosh (Dec 28, 2018)

C


G20man said:


> Lol.
> Set out to kill a doe this morning.
> Took 15 minutes into legal shooting.


Congratulations on your deer.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

G20man said:


> Lol.
> Set out to kill a doe this morning.
> Took 15 minutes into legal shooting.


Pic ?


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

stickbow shooter said:


> Pic ?


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Will shoot deer for food.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

G20man said:


> My advice?
> My advice is if you want to shoot a buck over a doe then do so.
> If you are trying to manage your herd you shoot what's best for the herd.
> If you want to shoot older bucks because they have big antlers then say so.
> ...


They are easier than does, I manage my freezer, shooting young bucks is easy, letting does go so they can produce some more young bucks seems like a plan, just one you won't agree with. Ok, I said so. A dead buck with spikes or forks, is just as dead as he will be 3 years later with however many points.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Going to take this doe to the butcher and do a hang and hunt where I think there's a big buck bedded and maybe I'll have another story


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

feedinggrounds said:


> They are easier than does, I manage my freezer, shooting young bucks is easy, letting does go so they can produce some more young bucks seems like a plan, just one you won't agree with. Ok, I said so. A dead buck with spikes or forks, is just as dead as he will be 3 years later with however many points.


Sure aren't easier than doe where I hunt.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Scout 2 said:


> Guess you have not hunted older does than


The one I shot this morning aged at five and a half at DNR check station and I got it tested for CWD.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

G20man said:


> I don't drink
> I don't practice Aprs.
> I hunt for big bucks.
> I shoot does if asked or if I need one for the freezer.


Do you kill a doe for each yearling buck you pass? Either yes or no, and why is that? (not wanting a yes or no answer ,only the reasoning.)

Your pretext of a doe is a buck when the topic is yearling buck kills does not suit managing a statewide deer herd. At all.

When doe need reduced ,and they do in certain locales (not all) then great.
But to assign substitution of doe for buck does not belong in an A.P.R. goal of having more older bucks across the state when long term recruitment is considered..
Firstly those areas doe do not need greater reduction need addressed.. Leaving more mixed regulations born of a single regulation , as well as enforcement requirements .
Secondly the effect of consistent doe reductions impact on buck production.
All fine , only if everyone understands there will be less of what they want in a goal of older bucks after substituting yearling buck kills with doe kills long enough.
Meanwhile the second year bucks are the new yearlings/fair game. Though less in number due to previous doe reduction after a couple years.

As a big buck hunter , why is a doe not a substitute?
If antlers are the answer , reducing bucks by reducing doe (a doe is a buck theory) is not going to provide the majority of hunters bigger antlers in greater numbers. Let alone more bucks of any age.

Keep harvest goals separate. And doe kills not dependent on less bucks to kill , or tied to an A.P.R.'s success or failure.
It would be great for a doe reduction incentive if more bigger bucks resulted.
Tying bigger buck production to doe reduction has to take into account the lower recruitment of buck fawns. And the missing year class(s) going forward.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

G20man said:


> My advice?
> My advice is if you want to shoot a buck over a doe then do so.
> If you are trying to manage your herd you shoot what's best for the herd.
> If you want to shoot older bucks because they have big antlers then say so.
> ...


Shoot whats best for the herd. 
Now you're considering the hunters role in management!

"Herd" by locale is not the same as statewide. 
Yet affects the statewide herd more accurately.

Depending on the herd and it's habitat , yearling kills (either sex , but depending on growth or reduction of that group goals as far as how many) can be the best yield per browse ratio.
Sure , another years investment provides bigger antlers on the bucks.
As long as the habitat and herd can afford the additional years browse.
If not ,substitution is required. Rather than two yearlings. One two year old. Choose the age and sex of what is removed as substitution carefully as what is left. It matters going forward when measured by hundreds of thousands of tag holders.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Waif said:


> Do you kill a doe for each yearling buck you pass? Either yes or no, and why is that? (not wanting a yes or no answer ,only the reasoning.)
> 
> Your pretext of a doe is a buck when the topic is yearling buck kills does not suit managing a statewide deer herd. At all.
> 
> ...


1. No I do not shoot a doe for every yearling buck passed. I only shoot does if asked or if the freezer is empty. Shooting anything but my target buck(s) is counter productive to my style of hunting as it creates unwanted pressure from the tracking and retrieval. 
When I hunted a high deer density area I did take does for population reasons. It's been about 10 years since I have hunted a high deer density. 

As for the rest of your post you are still discussing management. 
I do not disagree with taking certain deer or ages of deer for management .
Again though the topic of discussion was not in context with management. It was a simple discussion about shooting yearlings because they were so easy. My argument was and is doe are even easier.
I'll repeat this again. 
Hunters like to shoot bucks. Just say so.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Waif said:


> Shoot whats best for the herd.
> Now you're considering the hunters role in management!
> 
> "Herd" by locale is not the same as statewide.
> ...


Again. IF YOU ARE MANAGING YOUR DEER HERD yes harvest decisions are based on goals. 
I would never argue that


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Oh one more thing. 
"As a big buck hunter why isn't a doe not a substitute?"

Who said it wasn't? 
They are for me. 
I'll repeat this again. 
I shoot does to fill the freezer or if requested by the landowner. 

Last year I killed a buck on November 6.
That's all the meat I need. 
But it was a rule that we were to take a doe a piece too. 

So I killed one Dec 27 and gave it to a co-worker. 

This year I have not killed a buck yet. 
With the rule we are to take a doe a piece I filled my obligation and my freezer this morning. 

I'm going to hunt for bucks again now. 
If I'm successful I guess I'll be giving away some meat.


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## Double d's (Apr 23, 2010)

Love some of the hypocritical posts on this thread. Me I’m done being a hypo, ain’t nothing safe in the woodlot over the next few days. The land owners want some meat and I’m eager to oblige.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

G20man said:


> Oh one more thing.
> "As a big buck hunter why isn't a doe not a substitute?"
> 
> Who said it wasn't?
> ...


Reads like you hunt managed land. 
Not aware of the results of one for one kill ratio there , but you are.
With each kill , you are participating in that management.

You're not substituting doe for a big buck by targeting one from the beginning of your season.
Only landowner non regulatory rule causes you to kill a doe.

As to your killing a doe for the freezers sake , that does not make a doe a buck. Rather a reduction of your standard of choice. Settling for a lessor deer. I'm not degrading doe as secondary deer. They remain vital and are ...Deer too. Only demonstrating that when you are targeting big bucks , the devalued doe killed as a standard being lowered are more near a doe is as good as a buck suddenly , as a yearling buck is a lower standard than an older one.

The how and why of settling for less than originally targeted changes the dynamic of commitment. Your doe is some one else's yearling as far as freezer space.
Unless of course a booner poses for a shot..


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

G20man said:


> Again. IF YOU ARE MANAGING YOUR DEER HERD yes harvest decisions are based on goals.
> I would never argue that


My goal is a venison steak with a platter of gills. There is nothing like surf 'n' turf.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Waif said:


> Reads like you hunt managed land.
> Not aware of the results of one for one kill ratio there , but you are.
> With each kill , you are participating in that management.
> 
> ...


I said I don't kill does to avoid pressure while hunting bucks.
Come Christmas time if my freezer is empty u substitute that buck for a doe. 
Currently a doe is also a requirement due to rules.
If it wasn't I'd still would of killed one. 
My days of managing are long gone. I'm back to just hunting.
But I still have to follow the rules if I want to hunt this property.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Most people I know don't own a deer herd, so it would be really hard for most of them to manage, "Their deer". Owning, or leasing land, does not get you management rights to the herd.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

DecoySlayer said:


> Most people I know don't own a deer herd, so it would be really hard for most of them to manage, "Their deer". Owning, or leasing land, does not get you management rights to the herd.


Not true!!!

Every year a “neighbor” shoots someone else’s deer. LOL


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

Last doe I shot was in Kansas 3 years ago. In Mchigan if we we're allowed I would shoot a doe in the western UP where the herd in the area I hunt is doe heavy. In Birch Run where I live I have 5 or 6 bucks every year and 5 or 6 does and fawns. The bucks are all 1 1/2 yr olds with an occasional 2 1/2 in the mix. Surrounding people will shoot almost all of them. Doesn't bother me at all really. People should shoot what they feel happy about shooting.


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## Milosh (Dec 28, 2018)

DecoySlayer said:


> Most people I know don't own a deer herd, so it would be really hard for most of them to manage, "Their deer". Owning, or leasing land, does not get you management rights to the herd.


If you hunt deer legally you help manage the deer herd both macro and micro.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

Biggbear said:


> G20 you're illustrating my point without even trying. Who is the better hunter? My question is why the hell does it matter? I have no clue if I'm a "better" hunter than the guy who goes on an outfitted hunt, or the guy who is fortunate enough to hunt Ag land that holds multiple monster bucks, or the person who's only option is state land. Not only do I not know if I'm a "better" hunter, I don't really care. Maybe they're "better" than me, I don't care if that's the case either.
> 
> My point is that far too many spend far to much time using hunting as a way to prove they are the "better" hunter instead of just hunting. And those that have this misguided thought that they are somehow "better" than others seem to feel the need to tell others how to hunt, simply because their way is "best." Hunting has become hunter vs. hunter, instead of the hunter vs. the deer. Unless that changes, it won't be long before hunting is a thing of the past and then we will all truly be on the same level as non-hunters.


Well said, I think on his hunting grounds, he is better than me. Maybe a better deer hunter period. I have only been a woods bum since my first Muskrat/**** trapline at 12 years old. Over 45 years of woods bummery now. I have picked up a couple things along the way, even with my hard head. I like the fire and drive the younger guys say they have. But they need to stop and think, maybe someone else has "been there, done that" They sure don't teach any respect in big antler school nowadays.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

G20man said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> I'm not insinuating hunters should kill does. Unless of course we are talking about population reduction which WE still aren't
> You on the other hand keep bringing this back to a discussion about herd management.
> ...


Whats to educate? you never heard of the birds and the bees? I will give it a go, Boy deer and girl deer "hookup" normally in the fall months. Then because they practice no restraint or birth control the girl deer gets knocked up, "pregnant" . Still with me? Sometime in late may/ June they have a bundle of joy called a fawn. Now that fawn is way to small and cute to shoot next fall, hanging with mom nursing and all. if the doe has twins one may be a boy. fast forward to next fall now little buck has doubled in weight, just right for breakfast backstraps an tender jerky. He comes in to a clearing, looks me in the eye at 40 yards...and says "Take me Ruben" Take me now!!


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Scout 2 said:


> Read carefully what he says. One thing he went out and shot a doe a couple days ago because his freezers were empty, but in earlier post he was telling how many deer he shot this year


Can you reference where I said how many deer I shot this year? 
And explain how my doe killed yesterday and your statement have any correlation. 
Might help me to respond.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

U of M Fan said:


> Not true!!!
> 
> Every year a “neighbor” shoots someone else’s deer. LOL



WOW! Thanks for telling me that! I just didn't know.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

G20man said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> I'm not insinuating hunters should kill does. Unless of course we are talking about population reduction which WE still aren't
> You on the other hand keep bringing this back to a discussion about herd management.
> ...


Yeah. That single beer weeks ago must still be affecting me.

Do you hunt with Feedinggrounds?
I don't ,so I don't speculate about what's easier for him. Or allowed.
As for you killing or not killing doe , your motivation is permission requiring it. How different an ambition is that? It's not your goal either. Just skimmin the cream is.
Where do bucks come from if not from doe per feedinggrounds? How many does he have on his site(s)? How many bucks? How many hunters vying for a buck? Can a yearling be afforded?
Yes it is management related. 

Anyway it's a a bait thread.
Being it works for some that won't give it up , it will continue to be employed regardless.
Nothing new there.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

G20man said:


> Well I figured waif the drunken biologist would of jumped on your statement but he must be passed out.


Well, someone's mother didn't teach manners.

By the way, your avatar makes me think you could be weird.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

I mean really... who has pictures of animal's buttholes?


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Waif is a good guy , not some drunk. He contributes to these forms, doesn't come on here and thump his chest and yell look at me.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

stickbow shooter said:


> Waif is a good guy , not some drunk. He contributes to these forms, doesn't come on here and thump his chest and yell look at me.


Exactly, and the ones that do, usually don’t last long.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

Biggbear said:


> G20 you're illustrating my point without even trying. Who is the better hunter? My question is why the hell does it matter? I have no clue if I'm a "better" hunter than the guy who goes on an outfitted hunt, or the guy who is fortunate enough to hunt Ag land that holds multiple monster bucks, or the person who's only option is state land. Not only do I not know if I'm a "better" hunter, I don't really care. Maybe they're "better" than me, I don't care if that's the case either.
> 
> My point is that far too many spend far to much time using hunting as a way to prove they are the "better" hunter instead of just hunting. And those that have this misguided thought that they are somehow "better" than others seem to feel the need to tell others how to hunt, simply because their way is "best." Hunting has become hunter vs. hunter, instead of the hunter vs. the deer. Unless that changes, it won't be long before hunting is a thing of the past and then we will all truly be on the same level as non-hunters.


Well said.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

I don't bait, and really don't care if you do. But I do have to admit, I am going to like not hearing the corn feeders from my south and north neighbors going off in the morning and night every day.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Ranger Ray said:


> I don't bait, and really don't care if you do. But I do have to admit, I am going to like not hearing the corn feeders from my south and north neighbors going off in the morning and night every day.


Theyll go off at noon so you dont hear them lol


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> Waif is a good guy , not some drunk. He contributes to these forms, doesn't come on here and thump his chest and yell look at me.


What waif are you talking about. waif or Waif


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

G20man said:


> It doesn't matter.
> But we are not all equally as good.
> That was my point.


It obviously matters to you, you've reiterated your point multiple times in this thread alone.


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## Offfishn (Nov 12, 2017)

ongo said:


> Just saying, doesn't matter to me, but;
> On page 16 of the 2018 Mi Hunting Digest it states that you can shoot within the 150 yd safety zone if you have written permission from the land owner.


.
Another key word there is "OCCUPIED"
.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> .


Just using your same rebuttal. 
You know. You perceived things differently so it's " says you not me"


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

G20man said:


> Just using your same rebuttal.
> You know. You perceived things differently so it's " says you not me"


No, my rebuttal wasn’t a rebuttal to what you said. It was because you quoted my username with what you said. 
Maybe you missed that. Idk.
.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Who's on first?


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> No, my rebuttal wasn’t a rebuttal to what you said. It was because you quoted my username with what you said.
> Maybe you missed that. Idk.
> .


My bad. 
Quote option didn't work right.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Record for most deleted posts without warning points or strikes given. Merry Christmas! 
<----<<<


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