# Plan to use hired guns to harvest deer is making sportsmen uneasy



## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

Plan to use hired guns to harvest deer is making sportsmen uneasy


http://cadillacnews.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=3661918&BRD=2061&PAG=461&dept_id=376393&rfi=6

By Judy Toomey, Staff Writer March 26, 2002 




CADILLAC ? Government employees wearing night-vision goggles, carrying guns equipped with silencers and shooting deer on Michigan farms under the cover of darkness.
It?s a image that?s making some sportsmen nervous ? and one the U.S. Department of Agriculture is trying to combat.
Last year, the USDA?s Wildlife Services Program launched an effort to help combat the spread of bovine tuberculosis, a disease which also infects deer and is threatening Michigan?s cattle industry.
The initiative allows farmers within a 30-mile radius of areas where outbreaks of the disease have occurred to request a bovine TB control permit allowing them to eradicate deer on their properties outside of the traditional hunting season.
Farmers unwilling or unable to harvest the deer themselves are given the option of having the Wildlife Services Program provide hired guns to do the shooting.
While the program was originally intended primarily to combat bovine TB in the northeastern Lower Peninsula, where the most cases have been reported, farmers in other areas where bovine TB-positive deer have been reported ? including Osceola County ? also are eligible to participate.
The program has come to the attention of the Michigan United Conservation Club, which is planning a special meeting at 7:30 p.m. Thursday at the Hillman Community Center in Hillman, near Alpena, to seek answers from the USDA and Michigan Department of Natural Resources.
?We?re trying to get information as to what is going on,? said MUCC spokesman Dennis Fox. ?A number of clubs have contacted us about rumors. They?re hearing about sharpshooters harvesting deer. Any time you have to hire people to harvest deer, obviously it raises concerns for our membership.?
Pete Butchko, state director of the Wildlife Services Program, said concerns are being blown out of proportion.
?There are some suspicions we are doing this in an uncontrolled fashion, like a SWAT team, but that couldn?t be further from the truth,? said Butchko.
In fact, since the eradication program was implemented last spring, only two farmers have sought assistance from the USDA. A total of six deer have been harvested, Butchko said.
He believes the rumors about night-vision goggles and guns equipped with silencers began because the department may have used those tactics to eliminate some captive deer from a Presque Isle deer farm where an outbreak of bovine TB occurred.
Whenever bovine TB is discovered in a cattle herd or among captive deer, the entire herd is depopulated, Butchko said.
In the case of the Presque Isle farm, most of the captive deer were simply shot. However, a few became wary and resisted slaughter, posing difficulties for the officials.
?I honestly don?t know if we used night-vision enhancement or not,? Butchko said.
Butchko indicated the harvests are conducted by USDA staffers. Most will take place in spring, before groups of deer have dispersed for the summer. Harvests won?t be conducted during hunting season in order to avoid conflicts with hunters, Butchko said.
He indicated it is the intent of the program to focus on mature animals. ?Younger deer are not as likely (to have bovine TB). Our intent is to reduce the risk of transmission of the disease between cattle and deer, so we would avoid fawns and look at mature animals,? Butchko said.
Farmers who obtain the bovine TB control permits also can do the shooting themselves, or seek assistance from friends or family members.
?We are just one option producers can use to help eradicate the disease in Michigan,? Butchko said.
For more information about Thursday?s meeting, contact the MUCC at (517) 346-6487.
Farmers who would like additional information about the eradication program may call the Michigan Department of Agriculture at ((517) 336-1928. 

©Cadillac News 2002


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

I've said it before, if we could come up with a list of hunters who have passed a proficiency test and could make that list available to farmers they would have no excuse, other than they don't want any hunters on their property. I can understand liability concerns but that's what signed releases are for.


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## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

I'm with steve on this one. Night vision goggles and silencers and I've been told they're not trying to kill every deer in the TB zone. Wonder if they'll use bait piles???
Horse hockey......marty


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

That is exactly the group I was thinking about forming.

Very few hunters here seemed interested.

I did e-mail a couple groups that do this, but I have yet to receive a reply.

Eitherway, that post I did "Michigan Deer Hunting 2008" may be a little closer to reality then I thought.

Sharpshooters and night hunting etc.

Hunt


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## PrtyMolusk (Aug 13, 2000)

Howdy-
Steve and HuntNut, you come up with the test. I'll take it, and you can start a volunteer list with me. Maybe this site can come up with it's own list of capable, VOLUNTEER harvesters to help take care of this. Heck, I'd even be willing to charge half of what the 'sharpshooters' are charging per head (tongue-in-cheek). Why WE should pay to finance these 'sharpshooters' is beyond me....


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I don't believe the night vision and silencers. I do believe that is rhetoric in attempt to stir things up. Let's see a total of six deer harvested. One could kill a heck of a lot more than six with night vision and silencers. I think this is an example of some reporter hearing a rumor and printing it and many believe it to be true because it is in the paper.


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Unforunately Boehr,

Most people believe the media and papers. For many, it is the only source of news available.

Eitherway, we still need to deal with the reaction generated by their articles.

*shrug*

Boehr, do you have any knowledge of preperations being made by our DNR to handle these 2 diseases?

It seems very quiet out there.

Hunt


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Steve has said it before and I agreed then. He's saying it now and I still agree. Liability can be taken care of with a "save harmless" clause. What is Farm Bureau's reaction to such a proposal? Silence? Rhetoric.....again!


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

It's understandable that farmers would be hesitant to allow hunters on their property fearing the occasional "slob" hunter. This too would be easy to fix. Ever been on the EBAY site? They have ratings of all the buyers and sellers who rate each other at the end of each transaction. The same could be done here with the farmer/hunter. Ratings could be done at the end of the hunt. Farmers could then go online and pick hunters with the best rating.


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Steve,

I am absolutely interested in forming an alliance of responsible hunters that would offer their services to cities, farms, airports, etc for deer removal.

Top notch, respectable representatives of our sport. 

I am at work now, but I would be very interested in discussing this further.

Hunt


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## PrtyMolusk (Aug 13, 2000)

Howdy-
Huntnut, all joking aside, I would be interested in something like that. I'm good for slug gun zones. I also really like Steve's suggestion regarding the farmers rating the hunters...


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Hmm, this gives me some ideas for some website development.


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

Boehr, I worked with the USDA sharpshooters when they were doing the Selfridge Air Base deer kill a few years ago. They indeed had silencers and night vision equipment on the rifles they were using then.

The people that were doing the shooting were most professional and were not about to do anything stupid. They tried to keep a very low profile and get the job done when no one else could.

My guess is they only do this when it's absolutely necessary and when no other option is working. As far as we know the farmers who received this assistance may have also let hunters on their property during the hunting seasons.



tm


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## Jayrod (Feb 11, 2002)

Here in Georgia, around the Atlanta area there are two groups that have been formed in the past couple of years to address deer population issues that have arose primarily in and around subdivisions. 

The hunters are screened by a series of interviews, references are checked, their archery skills are evaluated and there ability to articulate in a professional manner is evaluated. When they go to a subdivision(usually at the request of the homeowners) they go in wearing street clothes(no Camo) they take there stands in along with bows...they are both archery only outfits... and if they harvest anything they leave no sign they have to literally "bag It" before leaving the woods. and not field dress it in the area.

There was an article about them in Georgia Outdoor News magazine aka www.gon.com You guys may want to check it out.

Jayrod


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

With the latest diseases running around in the midwest, I can see a real need for a group like this.

There is this organization in Michigan:
http://www.metrowildlife.org/default.asp (thx Mr. Morang)

I e-mailed them over a week ago, and have not seen a reply.

I know that they were used in the metroparks, but I believe the parks decided not to cull anymore deer for a few years...

This may have caused the suspension of current activities.

I would be interested in getting involved with something like this.

We could do some advertising in farm communities, a little education about the diseases, a description of our "club", and emphasis and skill requirements to be in the club.

Some farmers would go for it, I have done something similiar to this seeking permission in the past, and we gained access in a couple stellar spots that had crop damage permits.

Believe it or not, some farmers actually DO have lots of crop damage, and are seeking good hunters to remove deer, and now with TB and CWD next door, farmers may have a lerger incentive to use the skills of qualified hunters.

Ponder, ponder, ponder....

Hunt


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

MUCC TO HOLD MEETING ON SHARPSHOOTING IN DMU 452


LANSING - Michigan United Conservation Clubs will host an informational meeting in Deer Management Unit 452 with the Departments of Natural Resources and Agriculture to address concerns over deer being harvested at night by Department of Agriculture sharpshooters in the area. The matter was brought to MUCC's attention by its affiliated clubs in DMU 452, who received conflicting accounts over the means used for taking the deer and why they are being taken. Questions on the Department's disease research efforts via utilization of sharpshooters will be discussed at an informational meeting on Thursday, March 28. The meeting will take place at 7:30 p.m. at the Hillman Community Center in Hillman, MI. "We have been contacted by several members of our organization who live in the area and there is great concern about whether or not what is going on is appropriate," explained MUCC Executive Director Sam Washington. "We feel that both the public and the two state departments will be best served by holding an open meeting to explain exactly what is going on and the reason for it." "Conflicts between the interests of sportsmen and farmers in DMU 452 has led to strained relations between both groups," Washington emphasized. "Misinformation only complicates dealing with Bovine TB, which is already an unprecedented problem in the region. The public deserves factual information and an open discussion of the current activities." Bovine tuberculosis (bovine TB) is a serious disease caused by bacteria attacking the respiratory system. The presence of bovine TB in Michigan's white-tailed deer is a formidable problem that puts Michigan's other wildlife species, our livestock and the health of our citizens at risk. The disease has occurred most frequently in DMU 452, which comprises all of Alcona, Alpena, Montmorency, Oscoda and Presque Isle Counties. MUCC has nearly 100,000 members and over 500 affiliated clubs whose mission is uniting citizens to conserve Michigan's natural resources and protect our outdoor heritage. For more information, visit www.mucc.org. 



Huntnut please, call me Tom. Maybe this will give the MUCC and the Farm Bureau the incentive to work on this issue again. They both tried to get hunters and farmers together several years ago and it was a bust. I'm not sure but I think it was because it turned into a bigger project than either had expected. But maybe it's time to try again? Just my 2cents


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## sadocf1 (Mar 10, 2002)

You fellers are apparently all expert marksmen and are to be commended on your willingness to help the poor farmer.
You are at a loss to understand why the poor farmer does not welcome you with open arms when you contact him the day before the season opens offering to help shoot some of the deer on his property. Maybe if you helped him with some of his farming operations- haying, etc.- he might be more inclined.
At the Hillman meeting the consensus was that we didnt need any sharpshooters here in the TB Infected Zone, thank you.
Farmers with problem deer can name designated local shooters.
Us natives have been shooting deer , day or night, in season and out, since we were kids.
At the meeting we made it clear that we did not condone shooting deer this time of year - does are heavy with fawn- not fit to eat.
In 2001- 59 TB positive deer- 38 in the new 452- approx. 580 square miles- .065 TB DEER PER SQUARE MILE. One every 10 square miles !!
I predicted Mad Cow would shove TB off the map- I was wrong


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Sad,
Uhhh! Welcome to the site, I think! Your assumptions are merely that, unfounded assumptions that lump us into a class of uncaring, "sharpshooters" whose only interest in the farmer involves deer hunting and that none of us have ever offered to help the farmer out, or attempted to make contact well before deer season starts. You are mistaken.

I'm sure that your deer killing prowess, as stated, is impressive. However, you may find that most of the regulars to this forum are law abiding hunters who have a deep, abiding interest in the health of MI's deer herd.

I might point out to you that your last two paragraphs contradict each other.


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

Sadocf1

You have found some TB numbers! We havent got them yet.

Im going under the assumption here that you heard at the meeting, 58 positives were found in 2001/02 with 38 from 452 that encompasses an area of 580 square miles.

You cannot simply divide the number of positives by square mile to arrive at a prevalence rate i.e. 38 positive deer / 580 square miles = 0.065 positive deer per square mile.

Lets say that only 2000 deer were tested in 452, of which 38 were positive. 38/2000 *100 = 1.9% (the 2000 number may be close, as the total number of deer tested from the entire 4 county area was 4844 as of 12/31/01)

Lets say you average 20 deer per square mile up the area: 20 deer per square mile * 580 square miles = 11,600 deer.

Now with an apparent infection rate of 1.9% in a population of 11,600 deer, you have 220 infected deer in the area.

Now divide 220 infected deer /580 square miles and you arrive at 0.4 infected deer per square mile.

While those results are estimates, they are two orders of magnitude above your calculations (0.065) which is statistically very significant. 

There are many other factors to consider too many have cited in other threads such as age of deer tested an how it relates to positive deer.

Since we have property in 452 and I have hunted their all my life I have a little more stake in the subject than most. TB is still a very real threat to hunting and agriculture. The numbers you provided are encouraging though. Ill make my final decision on how encouraging once I see the official results. In the core area of 452, I believe the highest prevalence rate I saw was around 4 to 6 % (just from memory, dont quote me).

While you may not need sharpshooters there are several areas up there that need to bring the deer population down to a point where TB cannot sustain it self. You must consider what the neighbors are doing as well. As natives, perhaps you can help them out in their efforts if necessaryhave to look into the regs on that one.

As far as CWD goes, Im glad the only significant testing to date in MI that is publicly available was conducted in 452 back in 1998. Over 400 deer were tested and none were positve, gives me / us a little piece of mind in the short term. 

Like Whit said, hope you dont lump those in these forums with the guys showing up a day before the season asking to hunt. 

Again, check the math and most of us here are pretty good fellers


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## sadocf1 (Mar 10, 2002)

Again, I am moved to commend you fellers for your generous and unselfish willingness to help the poor farmer in his hour of need.
You are indeed true sportsmen. You almost make me ashamed of my past history with regard to game law violations.
Let me direct your attention to these facts brought out at the Hillman Meeting as reported by Bob Gwitz.
In 2001 the DNR issued 17 permits that resulted in 16 deer killed ( WHICH WAS A VIRTUAL REPRISEOF THE YEAR BEFORE )
As DNR BIOLOGIST Glen Matthews TOLD THE CROWD:"WE'RE TAKING FEWER DEER NOW THAN WE HAVE IN THE PAST''
These statistics would indicate that your more than generous willingness to help the poor farmer remove unwanted deer may not be needed.
HOWEVER. your assistance could be utilized on another, perhaps more important method of fighting Bovine TB described by Peter Butchko, fencing off feed-storage areas to minimize deer/cattle contact
You could " leave your guns t'home, boys''
Bring your post hole diggers!!


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