# Muzzle loader primers/powders and whats the difference?????????



## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

I guess my question above pretty much sums up what I'm looking for.

As for myself I have been shooting a TC Omega (early model) for the last 3 years. I still have my TC Englander .54 cal too, but hunt only with the Omega .50 cal.

I'm an old timer and I'm not easily swayed by all whats new, althoough the "new" may have certain bennefits, are they worth throwing out the old and paying the higher price of the "new"? :evil:

What I am asking for is not opinion but actual proof of an improvment of a powder or a primer. Does it shoot faster or is it "really" more accurate" and why???

I'm still shooting loose Pyrdoex and using standard CCI shotgun primers, although I do have some Rem muzzle loader primers now, but I haven't "yet" done actual tests with them over a chronograph testing speed, group size and variance in speeds recorded over a chronograph.

To me this is the only way to determine an actual improvement. The only reason I'm using Pyrodex instead of old black powder is I know its cleaner, to me that is a bennefit, not a percieved bennefit but a real one.

I am open to change if I can find a reason, so I'll ask you all what you have observed in actual comparisons shooting one against the other from the same gun.

I am very interested in the primers which is the main reason for this thread, but certainly not the only one. I'm also interested in powder. To me bullet choice would also have to be proved over a chronograph. I don't believe all the so called data put out by manufactores just to sell something new. As I said, I'm an old fart and have gotten a bit ornery over the years :evil:

oh, one more thing. The only reason I abandoned my old New Englander for hunting is cause half the time it would't fire, and yes I know all about the tricks


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

I only have sidelock guns. One percussion and one flintlock.

I have only ever used loose Pyrodex and GEOX black powder.

The real blackpowder ignites at a much lower temperatures than the substitutes, leading to faster and more reliable ignition in the sidelock guns. This is probably less of an issue with the inline/209 guns.

I didn't find Pyrodex to be any cleaner than black powder. It generates corrosive salts on firing, maybe slightly different salts than the black powder, but corrosive salts all the same. I used up the pyrodex, stocked up on black powder and never looked back.

-na


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

Most of the new powders were developed for cleaner options vs. Pyrodex or Goex BP. I do not believe that any propellant is fundamentally more accurate although if they help keep the bore cleaner between shots you may get better groups at the range.

There is definitely a difference in various 209 primers, you have to experiment with a given powder and bullet to find the best accuracy, also primers affect fouling and blowback quite a bit as they can cause different breech pressures.

I have always used Pyrodex in my Encore, works fine and I have printed cloverleaf groups so don't believe anyone who says it is not accurate. MZ load development is quite a pain and lots of time and $$ so I just found a good load and never tried all the new options.

If you clean well BP or Pyrodex is just fine, I spit swab between shots at the range and no issues.


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## mike the pike (Mar 11, 2008)

777 is more expensive than pyrodex, but burns better and cleaner. 

Some of the cheaper primers were actually creating to much pressure and pushing the charge and the powder out the muzzle and burning, then only to lose velocity.--mis fire syndrome.:yikes:

Alot of guys like using black horn and measuring it out...go ahead, i like the pre measured tablets so there is no mistake about what i am putting in my muzzy.


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

Nick Adams said:


> I only have sidelock guns. One percussion and one flintlock.
> 
> I have only ever used loose Pyrodex and GEOX black powder.
> 
> ...


I still love my old side lock too, something about an old tested and tried and true heh 



jmoser said:


> Most of the new powders were developed for cleaner options vs. Pyrodex or Goex BP. I do not believe that any propellant is fundamentally more accurate although if they help keep the bore cleaner between shots you may get better groups at the range.
> 
> There is definitely a difference in various 209 primers, you have to experiment with a given powder and bullet to find the best accuracy, also primers affect fouling and blowback quite a bit as they can cause different breech pressures.
> 
> If you clean well BP or Pyrodex is just fine, I spit swab between shots at the range and no issues.


So you use spit wads only? and find Borebutter to no advantage. How do you final clean after a range shoot of many firings?



mike the pike said:


> 777 is more expensive than pyrodex, but burns better and cleaner.
> 
> Some of the cheaper primers were actually creating to much pressure and pushing the charge and the powder out the muzzle and burning, then only to lose velocity.--mis fire syndrome.:yikes:
> 
> Alot of guys like using black horn and measuring it out...go ahead, i like the pre measured tablets so there is no mistake about what i am putting in my muzzy.


You say 777 is cleaner. I've never tried it yet but may. Are you able to fire multiple firings without cleaning? Do you use bore butter or anyelse like it?

Thanks for the replies guys


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Personaly, I like regular pyrodex, either loose or in pellets and BH209. I use Pyrodex in the Remington 700 and BH209 in the Encore. I do not like 777 at all, in any form. In my experience, it's no cleaner than regular pyrodex and it is more finicky when it comes to primer choices. It get's a lot of hype but most of it is just that imo. The BH209 is great powder, very clean but I can't say with certainty it's inherently more accurate than other powder, but it is very accurate non the less. I still use a musket cap on the 700 (not a #11) and it lights pyrodex with ease. I use CCI standard 209's with the Blackhorn.

I don't use bore butter in any of my inlines. No need to season the barrel with pyrodex and sabots like one would with black powder and a patched round ball or lubed conical. I use T/C #13 for the pyrodex and Hoppes #9 for the BH209. I clean between every shot and I hunt with a clean barrel, at least with pyrodex. With BH 209, I still clean between shots because it is my system, but it is not really necessary. Accuracy is good clean or dirty with BH209 in my Encore.


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## Roosevelt (Sep 21, 2007)

I can't really say what's better, but I use Shockey's gold powder and Remington kleenbore primers. They work well enough, perfect actually, knock on wood, that I haven't felt the need to try anything else.

i like pyrodex too and that's what I used in my sidelock.


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## mike the pike (Mar 11, 2008)

Jim..47 said:


> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif[/IMG]


 
Its still dirty...but easier to clean up . I swab about every 3rd shot to maintain accuracy. I always break it down after and hunt with a clean muzzy


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

Jim 47 replied above with questions:

After a range session I pull the breech plug and 100% clean with T/C #13 and store after a patch with bore butter.

Before my first shot I fire a fouling shot with 1 50 gr pellet and a cheapo saboted lead bullet. I found this cured my 1st shot fliers, before hunting I do the same the night before.

When shooting groups I just spit patch after every shot, if I am going 15 shots or more I will usually run patches with #13 down the bore a few times.

After changing primers to the Variflame kit with CCI #400s I get much much less fouling in between shots with Pyrodex; I am going 130 gr and a 300 SST which is a pretty stout load. The hotter primers [Fed 209A] were horrible foulers, Remington Kleenbores were better but the Variflame kit is really great and a spit patch is all I normally need.


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## Critter (Mar 3, 2006)

Muzzleloader specific 209 primers were developed to combat the "dreaded" 777 crud ring. They help but spit patching between each shot is the cure-all for the ring and keeping good accuracy with 777, Pyrodex or real BP. 777 fouls less and gives more velocity then Pyrodex, Pinnacle, APP and most real BPs in every gun I put over the chrony. Swiss is the only real BP that hung with it. I loved 777 until I shot Blackhorn 209. No fouling, shoot 40 shots at the range without patching the barrel and never have a hard time loading or loose accuracy. It has its own set of quirks, needs a full strength 209 or magnum 209 primers and tight fitting sabot for consistent and reliable performance once the mercury dips below freezing. It's stuff I'm willing to put up with for the performance. Velocity is similar or slightly better than 777 with volume equivalent loadings. 
Hope that helps some with your questions.


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

Yeah, I read every post several times, and before I'm through I'll go back and read them again, short term memory issues with being over 60 :lol:

I know this will sound stupid, but I had to do a search for TC13 to see what is was  Does it smell like amonia at all or anything else you recognize?

I'm convinced my normal cleaning is already good and I do patch between shots and clean more after every 3rd shot. Cleaning I understand pretty good. The other things you guys are writing though is very interesting. 

I'm using Rem clean bore primers now so I think that is good? I'll have to try some of this blackhorn powder I guess, but I just bought 3 more jars of Pyrodex which has to be used. Looks like I'll be shooting some more when weather breaks 

one last question here tonight. I am having trouble loading the bullet, even after thourouggh cleaning. I'm using the cheaper MMP sabots with HornadayXTP bullets. Is that normal or what may help?

thanks again guys for your posts


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

jmoser said:


> Before my first shot I fire a fouling shot with 1 50 gr pellet and a cheapo saboted lead bullet. I found this cured my 1st shot fliers, before hunting I do the same the night before.
> 
> How do you get away with this and not have a ruined barrel from letting it go without cleaning? Or do you do this after every cleaning before hunting? How long can you let a dirty barrel go without causing damage?


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

skipper34 said:


> jmoser said:
> 
> 
> > Before my first shot I fire a fouling shot with 1 50 gr pellet and a cheapo saboted lead bullet. I found this cured my 1st shot fliers, before hunting I do the same the night before.
> ...


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## Macker13 (Oct 1, 2007)

jmoser said:


> Jim 47 replied above with questions:
> 
> After a range session I pull the breech plug and 100% clean with T/C #13 and store after a patch with bore butter.
> 
> ...


What gun are you using?


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