# Austin & Halleck?



## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Anyone own or handle either of these? This may be my new rifle...
http://www.austinhalleck.com/AH-Mountain.html
I think the Select in the 1:28 for conical's would be pretty sweet!


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> Anyone own or handle either of these?


Handled one. Don't own one.

Nice looking rifles but they had quality control issues. They went out of business (out of sidelocks for sure if not out of business altogether). They recently had a big half-price, as-is, inventory clearance sale.

The Lyman Great Plains is a much better value in a sidelock rifle. The "Great Plains Hunter" model is the 1:28 conical/sabot version.

-na


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Cool. Nick, I'm looking at one of those too. Actually, my choice is between the two. Here's a site that describes the Great Plains better than the Lyman site does...
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(yi...tyleId=290&partNum=LYMAN-GPR-RIGHT-PERCUSSION


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I like the factory Lyman, but here's a custom that looks interesting...(2nd one down)
http://www.restorationfirearms.com/OnlineCatalog.html


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> Cool. Nick, I'm looking at one of those too. Actually, my choice is between the two. Here's a site that describes the Great Plains better than the Lyman site does...


That's a good place to learn about what's on the market. Great pictures, one-stop shopping, good service. It's not the cheapest place to buy, though. If you are buying a high-end, one-of, custom gun that may not matter. If you are looking at production guns like the lyman order it from here instead:

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%4D%55%5A%5A%4C%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47&dept2=%4D%55%5A%5A%4C%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47%20%52%49%46%4C%45%53&dept3=%35%30%20%43%41%4C&dept4=%4C%59%4D%41%4E%20%47%52%45%41%54%20%50%4C%41%49%4E%53

-na


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## hunt-n-fool (Oct 10, 2006)

you need a white if you are shooting conicals 










dirty white boys are the best !


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> I like the factory Lyman, but here's a custom that looks interesting...(2nd one down)
> http://www.restorationfirearms.com/OnlineCatalog.html


Restoration Firearms refinishes lymans and T/C hawkens. Same gun, nicer finish, higher price.

If you are willing to pay more for a more nicely finished rifle, and are willing to wait for it, I like these guys http://www.avsia.com/tvm/

Picture of a flinter I bought from TVM: http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/penna-2b.jpg

If you just want a good, traditionaly styled hunting rifle, without breaking the bank, buy the lyman. They are highly regarded as shooters. They are light years better than the Traditions or CVAs and less expensive than the T/Cs. You might also want to look into the Pedersoli Rocky Mtn Hawken.

-na


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Well it looks like I found some help here.  
What I'm looking for is a good quailty percussion Hawken, probably a .54, with a twist for conicals. 
What is also a major must for a new ML is a Hawken that is very pretty, with very nice wood, for under around $800. I don't mind paying an extra $200 for pretty wood. I spend $10-12 bucks on a good 6 pack of micro-brew, and extra $200 for a lifetime of looking at a beautiful Hawken is nothing.
I already own a Hawken for a round ball. A utilitarian looking 1970's TC Hawken in a .54. I started black powder hunting with it in the early 1980's when I was seemingly the only person out there in the ML season, back then. I've killed 2 bucks with the round ball, but I've been totally unimpressed with the round ball preformance. I had vital shots on both, but if not for good snow, I'm not sure how tracking would have went. On the first buck, I hit it dead in the lungs. I could even see where the ball went through the deer in the snow, but all there was was that ball mark in the snow. Virtually zero blood. But the deer not only didn't react (which is possible even with centerfires, I know) but the blood trail as awful. I followed the tracks in virgin snow for maybe 50 yards and I finally found a tiny speck on the virgin snow powder. The bottom line was that I double lunged the deer and found it some 150 yards away, after it made a goofy J type circle. Had I no snow, I'd have never found that deer and ulimately walked away from it, scratching my head on what could have gone wrong.
I still enjoy the round ball, but I'm thinking that if I want to go totally Hawken for hunting, I want to go conical.
If I didn't mention it, I'm done with in-lines. I've owned 3 different ones and recently had 2. I sold 1 and gave the other to the son of a deer camp member who's son is on hard ecomonic times. I have no issue with anyone who wants to shoot an in-line, but I already shoot a high tech bow with all the bells and whistles, a classic pre-64 M-70 30-06 with a Leupold 3x9 and, for me personally, hunting with a more tradtional Hawken type rifle gives me a little more pleasure. But yet I still want some modern aspects like a good percussion cap and twist for conical.
Ultimately, I want to go as "pretty rifle traditional" as I can, yet dispatch a deer quickly at 80 yards.
Know where I'm going and what I'm looking for?


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Nick, those TVM's look nice. I assume they shoot well? The price range is getting up there a bit with premium wood, but still do-able.
Where can I see one of these? Any place carry 1 in stock? 
I have a Ruger M 77 heavy barrel .220 swift with a straight 12x Leupold that I want to trade, in order to keep it under the wife radar. Know what I mean?  So I just assume make a trade with a gun shop that has 1 in stock for that .220 swift or could order, that way any pesky big cash transactions can be avoided.  :lol: 
Plus, I'd want to see 1 first.


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

it's a 50 PM sent


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> Know where I'm going and what I'm looking for?


Slow Twist: 1:60+
Lyman Great Plains Rifle
roundball, short connicals (shorter Lee REALs, Buffalo Ball-et, Hornady PA Conical)

Medium Twist: 1:48
Lyman Trade Rifle, Lyman Deer Stalker, T/C Renegade, T/C Hawken
Medium sized conicals (longer LEE REALs, TC Maxi-Ball/Maxi-Hunter conicals)

Fast Twist: 1:28, 1:32
Lyman Great Plains Hunter
Sabots, larger conicals (Hornady Great Plains or TC Maxi-Hunter, 400+ grains in a 54)


1:48 twist is actually historically correct for the real Hawken rifles.

Blood trail problem: You will get that with a high lung shot regardless of whether you are shooting roundball or conical. You aren't getting much hydrostatic shock with a big, slow, lead projectile, just a big hole. Lungs have to fill up to the hole before you start getting a blood trail. Shoot lower in the chest cavity.

Finer finish: buy a lyman from Restoration Firearms or buy a Lyman kit and do it yourself.


TVMs: sometimes you see them used on Track Of The Wolf. They are a built-to-order item. You will have to visit one of the trade shows TVM attends or find someone who owns one to hold one. I kind of doubt TVM would be willing to build one with a fast twist.

-na


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Trout, PM sent back.
Nick, thanks. Any idea if Lyman offers premium wood special ordered from that factory?
Maybe I'll call them.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> Trout, PM sent back.
> Nick, thanks. Any idea if Lyman offers premium wood special ordered from that factory? Maybe I'll call them.


Lyman doesn't build them, only imports them. Investarms in Italy builds them. Investarms also builds some fancier guns for Cabelas (Cabela branded).

-na


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Nick,
you're talking like Cabela's blue ridge rifles?
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?cmView=full&type=pod&id=0006565
That's a good looking rifle, and I can use points!:lol: 
The Blue Ridge has a 39" barrel with a 1:48 twist. Will that be more than adequate for conicals, like say a maxi-hunter or similar for average NLP 125 yard and less shooting, and accuracy?


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> you're talking like Cabela's blue ridge rifles?


I was talking about the Cabelas Hawkens. I'm fairly certain those are made by Investarms.

I don't know who makes the Cabelas Blue Ridge. Call Cabelas and ask. Don't have any experience with it either. 1:48 should shoot most conicals well and roundballs reasonably well as long as you don't push them too fast.



Pinefarm said:


> for average NLP 125 yard and less shooting, and accuracy?


A 50 or 54 roundball would be more than adequate for that. I'd take Trout up on the Lehman(?) he was offering if I was you. That looked to be a hell of a lot nicer rifle than anything you'll find at Cabelas.

-na


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Pedersoli makes the cabelas guns. Actually, most Pedersoli's are well over a grand. I found the gun I want right here, but it's $1200!:lol: 
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/armaDettaglio.aspx?Articolo=S.269&lang=en


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> ...I found the gun I want right here...


Let's just say that you and I have somewhat different tastes in traditional firearms. Trout's was good. The Pedersoli you linked to is butt-ugly. ;-)

If you like the shorter barrels, buy yourself a lyman deerstalker and be done with it. Have a couple of buddies who hunt with those and like them. Less than $250 at midsouth.

-na


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Sure it was the right link? It looks like trouts gun, but nicer to me.
I wouldn't stir paint with the stock on that deer stalker. :lol: 
I already have a plain jane hawken.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Nick, you'll find this of interest because you mentioned A&H had gone belly up. From the A&H homepage. (I actually never went to the homepage, but linked directly to the rifle pages)...

It is with great disappointment that we announce the suspension of operations at Austin & Halleck, effective 10/01/06.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

As far as the round ball, my experience isn't simply mine alone. Every deer shot a our place with RB had the same issue's. Some right through the heart. Yet, I have no problem with those who use a round ball. Unlike buckshot (which many know my opinion of) , the round ball not only came first, many rifles are specifically designed for the RB. Shotgun hunters have better options and are not tied to a specific season for only specific types of shotguns. A guy with a ML with a "slow twist" not only doesn't have many options, a RB is what his rifle is designed to shoot and was the predominate weapon when the special ML season was created. 
That said, the energy produced by the RB is pretty marginal to begin with. Forever, it's been gospel that you need around 800 ft lbs to cleanly kill a deer. I don't want to argue that point 100 ft lbs either way. But the round ball at 50-70 yards is often well below that. 

For me, if I'm going to buy a new, pretty, more traditional rifle, I'm going to stick with one that shoots conicals with more accuracy. Like I said before, I already have a plain jane Hawken. Sometimes a marginal hit happens and I like a little extra enegy, that's all. That is just my personal opinion, and unlike buckshot, I would never suggest that game managers look at continuing to allow the practice. But, I totally agree with this quote on the subject of round balls...
"I certainly do not begrudge those who, leaving this article on the Internet, wish to fantasize that they are now subsistence hunters with no access to electricity, or that stepping out of their SUV is part of yesteryear that suddenly begins sans horse with the wearing of funny clothes. However, those who insist that their personal fantasy is somehow the ONLY morally correct one have been appropriately rewarded for their intolerance: their numbers shrink every year.
Whatever and however you choose to hunt, the same wish applies: I hope that when you pull trigger, what happens is the confidently expected, not a surprise. 
http://www.chuckhawks.com/long_range_muzzleloading.htm





"The game department studies with which I'm familiar have not found modern muzzleloaders to be unethical or inhumane at all. Quite the contrary, the most disgusting amounts of game crippled and lost to muzzleloaders has been traced to round-ball wounds. A .54 caliber round-ball (230 grain, .535" diameter) fired from a 28" 1:48 rate of twist barrel by 100 grains volumetric of Goex FFg black powder retains the recommended 800 foot pounds of energy for the ethical harvesting of thin-skinned deer sized game out to less than fifty yards. A .50 caliber round-ball fares even worse. The 300 grain Hornady SST load, as published by Hornady, has more velocity and energy at 250 yards than our deer-crippling .54 round ball load has at the muzzle."
http://www.chuckhawks.com/long_range_muzzleloading.htm

Ballistics for .50 cal. TC Firearms
http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/tc50bal.htm

For those who may still question the value of a conical bullet over a round ball, we offer the following comparison ballistic data. Experts agree that 800 foot pounds is the minimum energy required to humanely harvest White-tailed Deer. I believe that the table speaks for itself.
http://www.prbullet.com/ulp.htm



The Inefficient Patched Round Ball
http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/kanger.htm

"Therefore, to generate adequate energy, we need larger calibers. Only when we get to .50 caliber and larger do round balls qualify as dependable hunting loads for big game.



A .50-caliber round ball weighs about 175 grains, the .54 about 225 and the .58 about 280. Even then, at common muzzleloader muzzle velocities, we have muzzle energy figures of only 700 to 1,200 foot-pounds. Compare that with the muzzle energies of modern rifles such as the little .222 (1,200), the .243 (2,000), the .30/30 (2,000), or the .30/06 (2,900).



But very little game is killed at the muzzle, and out yonder, at killing ranges, we see an even greater difference. The little .222 bullet starts out with a muzzle energy of about 1,200 foot-pounds; by 100 yards this energy is still over 900. By contrast, a hot load in a strong .50-caliber muzzleloader will develop muzzle energy of about 1,500 foot-pounds, but at 100 yards that inefficient round ball will have shed most of its energy and generate only about 500. The momentum of a round ball figuratively dies with distance, so to obtain efficient kills with a muzzleloader the bullet must be large.



Before leaving this subject, I need to make two points: (1.) I'm addressing beginning or average hunters. In the hands of experts, who have the ability to stalk close and are calm when shooting at game, smaller calibers are OK. Bullet placement is the key. (2.) Conical bullets are more efficient than are round balls, and you can logically generate 100-yard energy figures approaching or even over 1,000 foot-pounds if you use the larger calibers."
http://www.gameandfishmag.com/hunting/guns-shooting/gf_aa066202a/


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