# Unlimited Does Tags and Whitetails Forever



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

To regain some
constituent support,
DNR should address
antlerless issue 

Friday, February 4, 2000

Column By Bob Gwizdz 
Booth Newspapers Outdoors Correspondent 


LANSING - The DNR's inability to effectively communicate
its management message to deer hunters continues to
cost the state agency its credibility - despite department
attempts to listen to disgruntled sportsmen. 

A recent meeting between state wildlife officials and the
newly organized Whitetails Forever failed to make any
headway. About a dozen members of the group left the
meeting with a handful of Department of Natural Resources
officials even more disillusioned than when they arrived. 

"They continually gave us the impression that it was a
Gratiot County problem," said Richard Heathcock, a
Gratiot County commissioner and group organizer. "They
just didn't seem to comprehend that it was a problem
larger than a few disgruntled sportsmen in Gratiot County."

The group, organized in Gratiot County but claiming
membership in 75 of the state's 83 counties, has had it
with the DNR's unlimited antlerless permit program. The
way Whitetails Forever sees it, the state's wildlife officials
have abrogated their responsibility to manage the deer
herd, essentially allowing the lunatics to run the asylum. 

As Heathcock puts it, the DNR is acting like an adult who
dumps a five-gallon bucket on candy in front of a bunch of
9-year-olds, then expects them to make some sort of
intelligent decision on how much to eat. 

Heathcock's analogy is not without merit; take a class of
third-graders and some will eat a little candy and some will
make themselves sick. The question then becomes: Once
you have made yourself sick on too much candy, will you
have learned your lesson? Will you repeat it? 

The guess here is that the DNR agrees with Heathcock -
that some deer hunters will think this thing out and kill as
many (or few) deer as they think necessary, while others
will go hog wild. But over time, those going crazy killing
deer will decide for themselves - when they see what their
actions have wrought - to moderate their behavior. 

But the change in management philosophy has been so
radical that the DNR shouldn't expect hunters to accept it
without a healthy dose of education. Think about it:
Today's deer hunters were raised with the philosophy that
antlerless deer were to be protected. Gradually, game
managers tried to introduce the notion that a modest
antlerless harvest was acceptable - a concept that many
hunters failed to grasp. So the next step, that antlerless
deer deserved even less protection than bucks, is pretty
hard for some hunters to swallow. 

And that, frankly, is exactly how many hunters interpret
the DNR's current antlerless deer policies. There's a
two-deer limit on bucks, but you can kill all the anterless
deer you want; there's a 16-day firearms season on bucks
but twice that many days on antlerless deer; and there's a
$13 license fee for bucks, but a $3.50 tag for antlerless
deer. 

A reasonable hunter could look at those policies and
decide that antlerless deer lack value. 

And that's what some hunters argue: The DNR's policies
have so devalued antlerless deer that they now are
considered a nuisance. Some guys - not very deep
thinkers - are out there laying waste to antlerless deer
because they think the DNR wants them to do so. 

One argument Whitetails Forever makes is that it costs a
hunter almost four times as much to hunt rabbits as it
does an antlerless deer. This is a result of a misguided
policy that makes anterless tags stand-alone licenses.
Several conservation officers have told me it is common to
check hunters - even early in the season - who have only
anterless tags in their possession. The DNR should
immediately institute - and, if necessary, seek Legislative
authority to do so - a policy that makes possession of a
full-priced deer hunting license a prerequisite to buying an
antlerless tag. 

The alternative, of course, is to raise the price of the
antlerless tags. That would be a mistake; recent history
shows the DNR's leaders will just throw the money away
on non-game programs. Such fiduciary irresponsibility
should not be rewarded. 

But the DNR must begin a program to win back some of
its lost constituent support. And policy that indicates
antlerless deer are a valued segment of the state's wildlife
would be a good first step.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

I love the analogy of dumping a 5 gallon pail of candy in front of kids and expecting them to set their own limits on how much they will eat.


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## Barney (Jan 18, 2000)

I think Mr. Heathcock is off base with his kids and candy ideology. We as hunters have the control to manage our deer populations with the doe permits. We can take as many or as few does as we think is needed. The DNR has given us the best tool we could ask for and we are complaining. Sure there are people who take too many. We as hunters need to educate these people and tell them what we think of there behavior. We can not let a few bad apples spoil the whole bushel.

By telling the public that hunters can not control themselves we are only opening the door to more criticsim. We need to police ourselves. If there is a person who is harvesting too many deer talk to that person and see why. Maybe you can help him solve his problem.(i.e. crop damage ect.) Calling hunters Kids who can not control themselves only hurts the sport. 

------------------
Barney

[This message has been edited by Barney (edited 02-08-2000).]


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## Slugshot1 (Jan 20, 2000)

"The DNR's inability to effectively ommunicate its management message to deer hunters continues to cost the state agency its credibility - despite department attempts to listen to disgruntled sportsmen."
Well what are we worrying about if it is just a "communications" problem. Heck, my wife and I go through this all the time!


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## Slugshot1 (Jan 20, 2000)

I attended the Whitetails Forever meeting that night in Ithaca with a friend of mine. We signed up for the mailing list. Here is a letter I received a couple of days ago about that meeting. I am sure they would not mind since it helps spread the word.

Whitetails Forever Network
P.O. Box 99
Ithaca, MI 48847


January 31, 2000

The offices and board of directors of the Whitetails Forever Network met with the DNR Thursday, January 27, 2000 to talk about deer management concerns. Representing the DNR were K.L. Cool, the head of the DNR, Becky Humphrey, Chief of the Wildlife Division, and several staffers. Also present were representatives from the Safari Club, MUCC, and the Michigan Bow Hunters Organization.

The meeting can best be summed up as frustrating and unproductive. In fact, the meeting was not even chaired by the DNR. Rather, a representative from the Safari Club chaired the meeting. The meeting was conducted without an agenda, a clearly stated purpose, and no defined objective.

The offices and board left the meeting with the distinct impressions that the DNR really did not listen to the Whitetails Forever Organization. The DNR gave every impression that they believed our concerns about deer management we localized to Gratiot County and could not be as bad as we claimed statewide.

The DNR blamed the deer management problems on lack of recourses due to the effects of the Governors early retirement program a few years ago. They blamed it on the lack of biologists. They blamed out-dated sampling techniques. They blamed hunters. They blamed Landowners. They did not answer the question of how many deer were in a deer management unit (DMU) or any county and did not answer the question of how many deer were killed in a DMU or in any county. It should be obvious to everyone that if those two questions cannot be answered the deer herd is not being managed scientifically and there can be no justification for the slaughter of fawns and button bucks resulting from extended seasons and unlimited antlerless permits. Preliminary data suggests the DNR may estimate the deer herd at 45 deer per square mile. The DNRs objective is 28. We have yet to find a single hunter who believes there is even 28 deer per square mile!

The DNR admitted the unlimited antlerless permits were proposed by the Farm Bureau and the MUCC. The Safari Club ran the January 27 meeting. Who is running the DNR? Where is the "scientific management" we all supported when we worked so hard to pass Proposition G? Remember? "G is good, D is dumb"!!

Sportsmen and women of Michigan, wake up! Call, write, FAX, or E-mail your State Representative and Senator. Get involved. The deer herd cant stand another year or two of the pressure it took this past hunting season!


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Does anyone have Bob Gwizdz's email? I would like to email him and ask him to appear on our campfire.


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Bob doesn't have a published e-mail but he can be contacted by phone or mail as follows:
1-517-487-8888 Booth Newspapers, 217 N. Sycamore, Lansing, MI 48933
fax - 1-517-487-1227.




------------------
Boyd


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## Stinger (Jan 29, 2000)

What would you expect the Whitetail Forever Group to say about that meeting? Do you ever think they will admit they don't know what they are talking about when it comes to deer management?


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## Slugshot1 (Jan 20, 2000)

Stinger, I think it is pretty unfair to call say a group of avid and concerned hunters know nothing about deer management. Personally, I would rather have hunters with several decades of experience making observations and suggestions than some kid right out of college with a head full of knowledge but without practical application calling the shots. Not that that will ever really happen.


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## 9 (Jan 17, 2000)

I think the state has restructured (as with most big industry today) itself into a corner lacking depth of experience and topped off with tremendous political restraints. Those restraints being you either do it our way or be down-sized. 
I belive there are a lot of people today that KNOW HOW to manage ALL of our states' resources and some of them currently work for the state but when a hand is tied, it's tied!! Come on fellas, we all work for a living, we shouldn't believe the internals of the state are any better then any other big industry.

My kid brother graduated from Michigan Tech with a degree in Biology in the early 70's. Each year, for four years, he studied the deer herd up there as part of his cirriculum. I can't remember how many years before him they started the study but it was still going on when he graduated. The point is there has been a tremendous amount of study and documentation done on our deer herd by the state and universities but it appears that nobody wants to use what we've learned! All of the knowledge isn't just in the heads of us older deer hunters only our personal experiences. And what does that do for us? It makes us KNOW that there is something wrong here and we want it fixed and fixed right! It's going to take some serious politicing to turn around the present DNR mindset.
How many remeber the start of doe shooting in 1958-60. Man hunters were really divided, some started the Michigan Doe Hunters Assc.it got real ugly in the bars & in the deer woods back then. I will say that the people who didn't want to shoot does never saw the runts they had up around West Branch. How many of you would like to sit opening day and see 100-125 does (20 or so at a crack, single file backs barely higher then the cranberry bush they walked through) and if you saw a 4 or 6 pt buck you had to look real close to see if it had 3" antlers. The deer weren't much bigger then good sized bird dogs! But what happened-they shot does everywhere wether the area needed it or not. Sound familiar! Enough said for $.03 worth


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## gmaschke (Feb 6, 2000)

It seems the treasured whitetail has become a common rat. Every one losing money wants them gone. They were here before the farmers. The insurance co. wants them gone, I pay alot of money on insurance and even more hunting. I will pay more for insurance if they hush and let me see more deer. 

As far as the doe permits go, I listened to many a hunter brag about numbers of does shot. Some were into 30 a few in 20 and many many in the teens. I also made frequent stops at the butcher shops and observed the herd. It seems a button buck's worst enemy is the doe permits. The numbers were rediculous. We will shoot them all like a buffalo. 

The Quality program has a good thing going if they are responsible and let the small does pass some of which are yearling bucks. 

maybe what I think makes no sense buts its my cents


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## 9 (Jan 17, 2000)

I just finished watching the Georgia Outdoors News on the Outdoors Channel. They interviewed the head of their DNR and he stated that they were putting before the legislature a bill allowing UNLIMITED doe hunting for this year along with a 2 buck limit. He said it was because of excessive deer/car accidents and destruction to private property.

Also, I've forgotten to tell about meeting three deer hunters from Maryland last September while on a caribou hunt up in Quebec. They explained how in their state they can shoot 32 deer per season. I don't remember how many could be bucks or how many does. I saw one guys license and he already had 4 holes punched! I asked how many deer can a person eat? None of them ate the venison of the deer they shoot. One stated that he takes a couple of tenderloins once in a while but they donate the animals to somebody else??? They don't hunt very far out of the city. They hunt the suburbs and subdivisions for the deer munching lawn decorations and shrubs.


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## beagle man (Feb 16, 2000)

I agree totally with the Whitetail Forever group and I have the same problem in my area as they have in Gratiot Couny. I live and hunt in Saginaw county and I own my own hunting property but even with me trying to manage my property to see more deer it is all for nothing when the next door neighbor shoots every deer they see. I am totally against the way the DNR issues doe permits, the deer herd in my area has been wiped out over the last five years. I went from seeing 50 deer a year to now just three this last season. This is not because of me or the people that hunt with me it is because all the people around me shoot anything that is brown since they have doe permits and if is a button buck oh well. The DNR needs to manage the deer better by issuing doe permits the way they used to, no more 5 acre land owner permits, go back to 40 acre mininum with a lottery system for the rest and there needs to manadatory deer checks, no more killing buck fawns with doe tags a buck is a buck. If you kill button buck you have to use your buck tag.


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