# Yet Another Patterning Issue!



## ATB (Feb 17, 2006)

Went out to Bald Mountain on Sunday to get the Shotgun tuned up for Spring Turkey and shot the following:

Gun and choke
Remington Express Mag. 870, Primos Tight Wad Choke and the following 

Shells:
Remington Nitro Turkey size 4 and 5 
Remington Premier Magnum turkey loads size 4 and 5 seemed to have about a 1/8 more load than the Nitros. Both in the 3 inch shell.

Target
HS Strut

Results 
20 yards all of them resulted with the head close to being blown off.
30 yards 10 to 15 pellets in the kill zone 4 Nitro Turkey being the best
40 yards 5 to 10 pellets in the kill zone 5 Remington Premier Magnum Turkey being the best.

Sorry for possibly a stupid question but I honestly am more of a archery guy but really enjoyed the difference of moving around calling for turks last season versus sitting in a stand like whitetail season. Which probably sets up better for a gun than a bow.

The questions:
Is this a acceptable amount of pellets at 30 and 40 it seems low to me?
Would Hevi Shot or even more expensive shells or chokes do a better job?
Does anyone here have any success bowhunting turkey not from ground blind?

To be honest I feel more confident at 40 yards with my bow vs what my 870 is currently doing.

Thanks for the help sorry for the long post.

PS I found that 30 plus shots with turkey loads makes your shoulder feel similar to sighting in slugs.:lol:


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I'd try a different choke, maybe even the full choke that came with your gun. The hits you had seem on the light side, another thing to watch for is an even pattern with no holes and one that is centered. Hevi shot doesn't like a real tight choke. Each load is different, but my consistant best is Winchester #6s. I hate sighting mine in every year, Mossberg 500 with a syn. stock, I wear a life vest now.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

IMO i feel that turkey head targets are a waste of time. I believe the density in a ten inch circle cannot be beat due to the fact that a turkeys head and neck can occupy so many positions in a ten inch circle. 

So how many pellets in a ten inch circle at whatever range is considered woods worthy? I think any time you get 100 in a ten inch circle that is evenly distributed it is almost impossible for a turkey to be not lethally put down with one good shot. I personally prefer my guns to shoot somewhere around 200 but this is where patterning becomes a seperate entity from turkey huntin all together. 

My first recommendation would be to go to home depot and buy a roll of contractors paper and shoot at a 36" by 36" target, shooting at the small paper target may not be showing you that your densest portion of pattern may be off the target entirely. 

As for Remington loads, IMO they are pretty close to bottom of the barrell for lead shells. Winchester Supreme HV or Even the Supreme Red shell will outperform in most all cases. I have also heard of good results with Fiocchi (sp). 

Do you need a heavier than lead alternative? No I would even say switch to sixes to increase pellet count and lead sixes will knock a gobbler silly at 40 yds. I personally shoot heavier than Pb loads becomes in most cases you can tweak them to outperform lead but they arent needed for shooting turkeys at 40 yards. 

Choke, I have never worked with a tight wad. I know for the money, a jellhead is a fine choke. If you want to stay on a budget I would recommend Tru Glo Strut Stopper Extreme it has a .643 ied and straight rifling which helps to slow the wad before exiting the choke. This choke in most cases will throw 150 plus 10" circles at 40 yards with Win Supreme HV 6s. 

Good luck, patterning can be a frustrating ordeal, but is highly rewarding when you begin to see the targets you want. 

Feel Free to PM with any other questions


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2006)

DEDGOOSE said:


> IMO i
> 
> 
> My first recommendation would be to go to home depot and buy a roll of contractors paper and shoot at a 36" by 36" target, shooting at the small paper target may not be showing you that your densest portion of pattern may be off the target entirely.
> ...


Dedgoose
I saw your sound recommendation on another post and brought some of my IDPA large targets out to the Range to do like you mentioned. Unfortunatly the patterning boards they have were only like 20 by 20 and I dont think they would stack up on top of each other that good.
Thanks for the offer I will try some different shells in 6 and maybe check a different choke.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

DED, has some sound advise that I very much agree with. Uniform pattern density and a centered pattern are of utmost importance. Holes in the pattern, not centered or wild looking patterns indicate problems. I use 36" x 36" paper



http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181926&highlight=patterning


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Give some Remington Premier Magnums in #6 copper plated lead shot a try.

Believe it or not #6 shot is deadly at long range and there are a lot more shot in a shell than in #4's.


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## bigsablemike (Apr 26, 2005)

ill second the winchester supreme hi velocity,shot great out of my mossberg935.the fiocchi sucked i wouldnt shoot at squirrels with those things.


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## slowpoke (Jan 30, 2001)

Try the Winchester supreme copper plated buffered loads. #6 are good up to 40 yds., I'm told. Beyond that in lead you can try 5's. As far as Hevi shot, number 6's are good to 50 maybe 60 yds and I just tried some 3 1/3 Hevi shot number 13 in the 2 and 1/4 oz of number 6's at 4o yds. with a Indian Creek choke tube. Boy what a difference. When I get a little more time I will post a picture.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

slowpoke, that IC *Bronze 2oz or 2 1/4 oz *is the ticket. I have been preaching that combo on here for a while and glad I have someone to back me up. 

One thing I forgot in my above mentioned post is cleaning between shots. Some guns like to shoot fouled but in my exp most will produce the best pattern with a spotless barrell. It is kinda a pain in the butt, but make sure you clean your guns between shots as good as if you were putting it up for winter. TUrkey loads are mighty nasty things and the wad melts to the inside of the barrel resulting in less than steller multple shots. 

And when comparing loads you want to shoot each from a clean barrell because it is the only way to have this as a controlled variable and compare apples to apples.


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## slowpoke (Jan 30, 2001)

slowpoke said:


> Try the Winchester supreme copper plated buffered loads. #6 are good up to 40 yds., I'm told. Beyond that in lead you can try 5's. As far as Hevi shot, number 6's are good to 50 maybe 60 yds and I just tried some 3 1/3 Hevi shot number 13 in the 2 and 1/4 oz of number 6's at 4o yds. with a Indian Creek choke tube. Boy what a difference. When I get a little more time I will post a picture.












This target was at 40 yds with the Hevi shot I was talking about. I'm ready.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

What are your ten inch circle counts, alot of fellas are approaching 250 in a ten inch circle at a measured forty.


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## jiggineyes (Feb 19, 2005)

Seems to me you are spreading thin in the kill zone. Alot more shot at 6-8" high and low compared to in the bullseye. If it were me I would try get those in a tighter pattern.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Slowpoke, the pattern looks pretty good but to the left it looks a little thin, IMO.


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## slowpoke (Jan 30, 2001)

I taped the target on a 4 by 4 piece of cardboard. Guess I should have took a picture of it from the back. If you seen the cardboard you would see a good spread without any large holes in the pattern. The pattern center was a little high but at 40 yds who knows. I cant afford to shoot a grope of 10 and that is what needs to happen to get the best report. 

DEDGOOSE What are your ten inch circle counts, alot of fellas are approaching 250 in a ten inch circle at a measured forty. 
Guess I should have saved the 4 by 4 cardboard, I think I got 250 pellets or close to it at 40 yds. If I shoot one more I will save the cardboard and take more pictures. 
Yes the pattern looks a little thin on the left side (that was the only thin spot in the pattern on a 4 x4 ' piece of cardboard) and looks tighter at the top and bottom.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Slowpoke, I have switched to a twenty for all my turkey hunting purposes. I have buddies that shoot that choke and load and surpass 200. I personally shoot a kicks gobblin thunder (i know i know no hevi through the choke) and with that load I shot 8 rounds last year and averaged 195. Since using the twenty and having the x2 as a backup I seen no reason to purchase that choke _YET _.

Your pellet count will increase with weather getting better. Yesterday I did some testing with the twenty and found loads that I have confidence in shoot like crap. 14% less payload in a ten inch circle at 40 yards. 

Here is a pattern that was recently posted by Steve conover, if you dont believe internet hype I can assure you that this target is legit. Steve is one of the most informative men in turkey hunting gun circles and has won more world championships in the NWTF Still Target championships than he can count. The pattern was shot through a stock browning BPS with an IC .655
http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php?topic=2005.msg26460#new


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## slowpoke (Jan 30, 2001)

Your pellet count will increase with weather getting better. 

I have heard that the pattern will get better as the weather warms up. It was cold when my pattern was shot, like 25deg. I have a 20 Browning Belgian that has a tight choke, I might try to pattern it. I remember it shoots a tight pattern.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Steve the fella who shot that pattern, thinks on a whole new level. Right now he is doing extensive testing to try to pin down the variables in the weather that effect pattern density. It is a given that wind sucks, cold weather is terrible and that you want humidity somewhat on the high end. 

Their is no doub in my mind that with that combo you are shooting, you will surpass 200 with a clean barrell and Ideal conditions. Ideal being if WE EVER hit sixty degrees. 

The twenty guage is a different animal all together, a crappy target is a REAL crappy target. My twenty is a bonafide 40 yard turkey gun and will shoot better than most guys twelves. But the kicker is finding the right ammo. I am in a funk right now, environmetal makers of hevi 13 love to switch up the components of shotshells year to year, and typically for the worse. The 06 vintage and older hevi 13 20g 1 1/4 loads put forty more pellets in a ten inch circle at 40 in my gun than the 07 and 08 versions, that is alot when only talking 250 pellets to begin with. 

My advice to you would be to buy as much of the bronze 2 .250 load as you can afford, so that if they switch the components you are set for a good number of years. Ohhh also try the 2oz load, the 2 1/4 load works in a variety of constrictions but that .665 you have was designed to be paired with 2oz 3 inch load, pattern might be better might not.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

DEDGOOSE said:


> Steve the fella who shot that pattern, thinks on a whole new level. Right now he is doing extensive testing to try to pin down the variables in the weather that effect pattern density. It is a given that wind sucks, cold weather is terrible and that you want humidity somewhat on the high end.


I highly doubt that air density is "state of the art" or "thinking out of the box". 

IMO, I don't think we're going to chose which gun to take a given day based on a list of the current weather conditions. Knowing how your gun performs in different conditions is the imprtant thing, as changing the weather is out of the question. I remember one season it started out with snow and sleet. 

At one time I played around with patterning quite a bit till I decided that I'd just as soon wait for them to come that extra 10 yards before I slap the trigger. I enjoy the up close and personal encouter :evil:


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Man you can say whatever you want. But most guys will have a box of ammo shoot it say now at 32 degrees get a crappy pattern. Say in two weeks it hits sixty buy a nother box of ammo shoot it it shoots slightly better and think wow this load is better not even knowing the first load may shoot better in similiar conditions. 

I do agree that it is in our best interest to test guns in different weather conditions. The effect of a 20 mph cross wind during turkey season is a very real possibility and the effects are astounding, couple this with temps on a cold morning and your gun that could kill a turkey at 40 is now a 25 yard turkey gun. I understand all this as much as anyone, the twenty guage is less gun to begin with, hence the above mentioned conditions are magnified in it use. 

As for air density, thinking outside the box. SOme guys might think about it, but do they actually take the time to shoot thousands of rounds and record the results in different conditions. Steve and a few others testing is why you have the quality selection of load and chokes that we have today. 

Like I have said before, I dont advocate shooting turkeys past forty yards and shoot 90 percent of them inside 35, but pellet counts are a seperate entity from turkey hunting in my book when you strive to make the ultimate killer. Like I said turkey guns are a component of turkey hunting some of us have choosen to take the patterning to a higher level and make a hobby in itself.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I guess I'm a poor hunter as I seriously doubt that my guns has seen a thousand rounds through it, even with probably a dozen or more people I've taken out after birds for the past 10 years. That counts their site in sessions too.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Here me out, that wasnt the point of my post. Any hunter that takes his gun to the range with his preffered load and patterns it at distances until he determines that his gun is no more capable of guaranteeing an ethical kill is alright in my book. I do have no respect for the hunters who fail to take this step thinking a shotgun is a shotgun and how can you miss a turkey with a shotgun. 

I am not saying that everyone needs a 50 yd gun, but they owe it to the turkey to know the abilities and inabilites of their shotgun. To me its an ethics issue. 

What I am getting at with the people that shoot every possible combo of load and choke constriction is that they are great for the hunter. The take alot of guess work outta the equation and form a great starting point thus saving you and I money.


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