# Berrien springs, Bull S.



## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Arrive at the river this evening to find it the lowest its been all year (period). If that wasnt bad enough they open the dam and let it rise to the highest its been in 5 months. It rose in an hour. You would think it would equal great fishing (yea right) not even a hit. Fished for 5.5 hrs or so.

I can hear you guys already oh the great Multispeciestamer dosnt catch a fish, yadda yadda. SAVE IT dont want to hear it.

Just wondering if anything can be done about how they (power company) run the dam.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

The power companies have to operate the dams in accordance with strict regs about the levels above the dams, but no regs for flow below. That is because people live on the impoundments above dams. Got a lot of rain yesterday, I hear. All the way down through Indiana, where the Joe originates. Probably had to release some of that along the system. Watch for the water to come down to fishable levels, and try it, again. Steelhead run best on dropping flows.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

It used to be when I was a kid, Lake Chapin above Berrien Springs Dam would fluctuate 1'-2' everyday and would do so multiple times throughout the day.

Now it basically never fluctuates more than an inch or two.

So the way AEP operates the dams is purely designed around keeping certain impoundments above the dams at equal water levels.

I personally think that fluctuating water levels are better than constant water levels below Berrien in the grand scheme of things. Fishing always seems to be better when the water has been fluctuating than it does when it has been a constant flow. In constant flows steelhead don't seem to move as much and can become stagnant.

In my experience steelhead run the best on rising flows, I think there is a misconception that they run better on dropping flows because steelhead tend to drop back into "classic holding locations" where the majority of fisherman look for them regardless of water conditions and therefore are then more apt to catch fish...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Fishndude said:


> The power companies have to operate the dams in accordance with strict regs about the levels above the dams, but no regs for flow below. That is because people live on the impoundments above dams. Got a lot of rain yesterday, I hear. All the way down through Indiana, where the Joe originates. Probably had to release some of that along the system. Watch for the water to come down to fishable levels, and try it, again. Steelhead run best on dropping flows.


 oh its never got above a nonfishable level. Its just when the river rises F****** 4 feet in a hour. Native fish cant setup on a pattern and scatter all to hell or sit on bottom. It would be a much wiser choice to have let out a smaller amount of water and open the gates for a longer period of time. Then to "Flood" it out then close the gates and let it come down agian then "flood" it again. The whole food chain below the dam gets scrambled.


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

Boozer said:


> I personally think that fluctuating water levels are better than constant water levels below Berrien in the grand scheme of things. Fishing always seems to be better when the water has been fluctuating than it does when it has been a constant flow. In constant flows steelhead don't seem to move as much and can become stagnant.


It also helps to keep sand from filling in holes. Look at what happened to the Big Manistee when they returned it to a "natural flow"...


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Sorry to let you know, but they don't care what the operation of the dam by releasing water does to the fishing for a day or two. There are more important things that they need to worry about, maybe say like, property damage and other factors which are a much bigger deal than a day of fishing.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Trout King said:


> Sorry to let you know, but they don't care what the operation of the dam by releasing water does to the fishing for a day or two. There are more important things that they need to worry about, maybe say like, property damage and other factors which are a much bigger deal than a day of fishing.


 What the h*ll kind of property damage is going to be done by letting the water out and keeping the level more consitant below the dam. Instead of them letting it out all in one burst.  So in turn letting out the same amount of water they were already going to let out. Also I am not speaking of running it for the fishing. But to better the fish that belong there.


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## kzoochromer (Feb 17, 2010)

Were they opening the flood gates? If its anything like a dam to the north, I would be willing to bet the were cleaning out leaves from the turbines....just a guess


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

kzoochromer said:


> Were they opening the flood gates? If its anything like a dam to the north, I would be willing to bet the were cleaning out leaves from the turbines....just a guess


I would be willing to bet that's exactly what they were doing, the sudden flush of large amounts of rain water brought water levels up enough to have the river just full of debris...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

kzoochromer said:


> Were they opening the flood gates? If its anything like a dam to the north, I would be willing to bet the were cleaning out leaves from the turbines....just a guess


 when I got there they had one turbine running, after they opened the dam they turned one more on. so they had 2 of 8 on. Yea they let the water out of the gates though


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

You should see what Consumers has been doing with Croton the last few weeks--up down, up down, 3000cfs one hour, 1000 cfs the next. I can understand that they've had some problems with the equipement, but give me a break--how long does it take to get that (stuff) fixed???? :rant::rant::rant::rant:


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## foxfire69 (Sep 10, 2006)

I heard today that the Joe has been lowered in the last week to accomodate Dam repairs in Indiana!?


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

foxfire69 said:


> I heard today that the Joe has been lowered in the last week to accomodate Dam repairs in Indiana!?


 thats been done and over with that was at the start of the month


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

thousandcasts said:


> You should see what Consumers has been doing with Croton the last few weeks--up down, up down, 3000cfs one hour, 1000 cfs the next. I can understand that they've had some problems with the equipement, but give me a break--how long does it take to get that (stuff) fixed???? :rant::rant::rant::rant:


 I feel yea


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

I think I'll just stick to the rivers I don't really have to worry about it on right now....hell as soon as I get through with the 60 bags I tied this week I won't worry about fishing until about November 16th.


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## Fishslayer5789 (Mar 1, 2007)

thousandcasts said:


> You should see what Consumers has been doing with Croton the last few weeks--up down, up down, 3000cfs one hour, 1000 cfs the next. I can understand that they've had some problems with the equipement, but give me a break--how long does it take to get that (stuff) fixed???? :rant::rant::rant::rant:


I agree. I've seen some pretty dramatic changes in water level in short time periods as well. It kind of messed with the fishing a little bit but I still caught plenty of fish in both high and low water...enough to keep me busy for a few hours!


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Fishslayer5789 said:


> I agree. I've seen some pretty dramatic changes in water level in short time periods as well. It kind of messed with the fishing a little bit but I still caught plenty of fish in both high and low water...enough to keep me busy for a few hours!


 It depends on what your fishing for. Cold fronts and constant changing conditoins is good for steelhead. But cold fronts, pressure changes, and unstable water levels are not good for the fish I am after.


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

Fishndude said:


> Got a lot of rain yesterday, I hear. All the way down through Indiana, where the Joe originates. .


The Joe originates in central michigan, goes through indiana and then back into sw mich.


They are just dumping leaves guys, it happens every oct,nov. They don't want limbs, leaves and debris in the turbines.


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## Mark Turner (Dec 24, 2004)

Fishndude said:


> The power companies have to operate the dams in accordance with strict regs about the levels above the dams, but no regs for flow below. That is because people live on the impoundments above dams. Got a lot of rain yesterday, I hear. All the way down through Indiana, where the Joe originates. Probably had to release some of that along the system. Watch for the water to come down to fishable levels, and try it, again. Steelhead run best on dropping flows.


I always experience the opposite, fishing slows with dropping flows. Is there something you do different during dropping river levels?


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Spanky said:


> The Joe originates in central michigan, goes through indiana and then back into sw mich.
> 
> 
> They are just dumping leaves guys, it happens every oct,nov. They don't want limbs, leaves and debris in the turbines.


 normally I would say yes they are just dumping leaves, but when they let out enough water to raise the whole river below the dam 4 feet thats not just dumping leaves.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> normally I would say yes they are just dumping leaves, but when they let out enough water to raise the whole river below the dam 4 feet thats not just dumping leaves.


1) They didn't bring it up 4', do you realize how much 4' of a raise in water level really is?

2) How do you know what they have to do to properly get rid of the leaves?


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## R_T (Feb 20, 2009)

Multispeciestamer said:


> thats been done and over with that was at the start of the month


FYI, not all the dams up stream have finished their repairs/maintenance as of Monday the 25th.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Mark Turner said:


> I always experience the opposite, fishing slows with dropping flows. Is there something you do different during dropping river levels?


Steelhead tend to move more on dropping flows. Once the flows stabilize, the fish hold up more. I find them on the inside of bends in fairly shallow water a lot, in high water. If there is a chute that concentrates flow in a particular spot, or a long shallow place with deeper spots above and below, the deeper spots are often good spots for fish to hold, briefly.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Fishndude said:


> Steelhead tend to move more on dropping flows. Once the flows stabilize, the fish hold up more. I find them on the inside of bends in fairly shallow water a lot, in high water. If there is a chute that concentrates flow in a particular spot, or a long shallow place with deeper spots above and below, the deeper spots are often good spots for fish to hold, briefly.


How do you figure they move more on dropping flows?


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

I'm certainly no expert, but most fish like stable weather and seasonal changes in water temp and flow.

and yes, the levels DO fluctuate allot during leave drop or anytime they open the flood gates. Thats why they are called "flood gates".

and by the way multispecies tamer, whats the big secret about what type of fish are you after.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

There was a big study done on the migration of Steelhead, which was published in STS some years back. I think it was done in either Oregon or Washington. By far the most fish movement upstream occurred on falling flows from a high-water event. Interestingly, some fish actually migrated into rivers in Fall, then moved back out to the ocean, and then migrated into another river to spawn. Some of them made it quite far up the first river they ran, before heading back out. In raging high water, the fish tended to school up behind any current breaks, including eddies, logjams, etc. But when the flows started to drop, the fish would pour into the rivers and head upstream quickly, stopping occassionally to hold above or below shallow spots. It was an interesting read. I can't tell you which issue it was in, though. It would take me quite awhile to figure it out. 

I did a quick google search for Steelhead Migration Studies and found this. Not sure if this is the study referenced in the STS article, but it is interesting. 

http://www.nww.usace.army.mil/planning/ep/fishres/reports/SHPartII_Final.pdf


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

That's cool "dude", it has always seemed to me the majority of upstream migration was on the rise and around the peak of water level then on the drop fish seem to drop into the "classic locations" where the majority of people look for them.

I wonder if steelhead act differently here than out West in regards to upstream migration? They certainly have much more drastic changes in flow than we ever will...


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

Spanky said:


> and by the way multispecies tamer, whats the big secret about what type of fish are you after.


Wondered the same thing.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

You guys should have seen below Berrien about an hour ago, they are obviously still doing some type of maintenance somewhere as the water was honestly the lowest I have ever seen it. It was like two small creeks running down each side of the island. Seemed like the dam was completely shut off, but was just driving past so one or two turbines could have been running.

Even when they filmed that movie here years ago it wasn't that low...


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

two different types of river and fish. Our rivers travel at a crawl compaired to them west coast power houses.

I thought you got that info from experience, not a magazine.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Spanky said:


> two different types of river and fish. Our rivers travel at a crawl compaired to them west coast power houses.
> 
> I thought you got that info from experience, not a magazine.


You quoted the wrong person Spanky :lol:

I will say, I am on the same page as you, just didn't want to be rude to the fishndude as he has always been one of the friendly guys on these boards. My observations are just that, observations, but I do strongly believe that the majority of upstream migration in Western Michigan is not on the falling flow side of things though. In my experience this is when they drop back into their typical holding locations...

I didn't read his link, but I would be willing to bet it's in regards to their Summer steelhead which are notorious for doing exactly what he is talking about, they mainly do it due to warm water temperatures in the main tribs so they are apt to duck into the colder tribs for a while or drop back out as he stated.


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## Mark Turner (Dec 24, 2004)

Spanky said:


> two different types of river and fish. Our rivers travel at a crawl compaired to them west coast power houses.
> 
> I thought you got that info from experience, not a magazine.


I thought so to, I would agree different environment. Steelies have always slowed down for me on falling flows.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Mark Turner said:


> I thought so to, I would agree different environment. Steelies have always slowed down for me on falling flows.


Depends on the river, I would imagine. FWIW, my experience has been that higher flows keep fish scattered and moving around and then when it starts to drop and/or stablize, they settle into their normal holding spots and the fishing can be on fire for a certain time period there after. I watch that USGS site like a hawk and certain rivers do have a "magic number" as far as cfs is concerned. Once the flow reaches X amount of cfs for Y amount of days, it's go time--year in and year out.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

thousandcasts said:


> Depends on the river, I would imagine. FWIW, my experience has been that higher flows keep fish scattered and moving around and then when it starts to drop and/or stablize, they settle into their normal holding spots and the fishing can be on fire for a certain time period there after. I watch that USGS site like a hawk and certain rivers do have a "magic number" as far as cfs is concerned. Once the flow reaches X amount of cfs for Y amount of days, it's go time--year in and year out.


Second that one, especially in Winter when you get a flush and then the water begins coming down, find a barrier "shallow section of river, dam, etc..." fish the first few holes downstream of that barrier and fish will be stacked like cord wood.

If it's falling flows like have been going on as of late where one minute it's 5' deep, next the fish are in 1' of water, then yeah they tend to get spooky though, but that's not really a natural falling flow...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Boozer said:


> 1) They didn't bring it up 4', do you realize how much 4' of a raise in water level really is?
> 
> 2) How do you know what they have to do to properly get rid of the leaves?


 As a friend of a friend I dont see why you question what was said. Next time I will take pictures for you. As we all know the water by the dam when the flood gates are opened would rise fast then spread out down stream. The whole river below the dam did not go up 4 feet. By the river near the dam it did. And It stayed that high for over a day (About time)


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

The fish is walleye


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## Fishslayer5789 (Mar 1, 2007)

Multispeciestamer said:


> The fish is walleye


The god of fishing has spoken. Thy holy sercret has been unleashed!


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Fishslayer5789 said:


> The god of fishing has spoken. Thy holy sercret has been unleashed!


 I tried to post pics but it wouldnt let me.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Spanky said:


> The Joe originates in central michigan, goes through indiana and then back into sw mich.



Indiana is just "the end of the line" for migratory fish...


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## kzoochromer (Feb 17, 2010)

Fishslayer5789 said:


> The god of fishing has spoken. Thy holy sercret has been unleashed!


TFF :lol::lol:


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## bigmoekilla (Apr 1, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> I tried to post pics but it wouldnt let me.


 You have to be smarter than "it"


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## Toga (Nov 11, 2009)

bigmoekilla said:


> You have to be smarter than "it"


Wow! :lol::cwm27: :fish2:


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

bigmoekilla said:


> You have to be smarter than "it"


 ha ha


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

First post ever with a skunk from SW Michigan. Gee sorry about your bad luck. I will call the fisheries division and send another presidential motorcade of hatchery trucks your way.They don't even need a map anymore just put the garmin on auto pilot.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Robert Holmes said:


> First post ever with a skunk from SW Michigan. Gee sorry about your bad luck. I will call the fisheries division and send another presidential motorcade of hatchery trucks your way.They don't even need a map anymore just put the garmin on auto pilot.


 your funny, NOT! 

Went back down today river was low as could be this time they only raised the water near the dam 1.5-2 foot. Caught no leaves nor seen any leaves in the water.


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## trailhead_mercantile (Oct 12, 2010)

Yeah the Indiana construction is over... I did however have a guy in the shop the other day said that he said it was being kept low for residential construction that nothing to do with the Indiana thing. That's all he said. Wasn't sure where the construction was though.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

For purposes of clarification, the exact start of the Joe is Baw Beese Lake in Hillsdale. The Joe has always been near and dear to my heart since my "home" is Hillsdale (I may live near Grand Rapids now, but home is home). My parents' house is about a 1/2 mile from a long stretch of the Joe and I spent most of my childhood tromping around in there. Great times! 

I cut my salmon and steelhead teeth below Berrien--I still have a vivid memory of the very first salmon I ever hooked. Back...uh...well, when I was 13 and now I'm 41, so...awhile ago. :lol:

Whether you chase carp in the mill ponds near the headwaters or catfish around Union City and Mottville or salmon and steelhead from Twin Branches to the mouth, the Joe is a wonderful, diverse waterway.


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

Multispeciestamer said:


> Went back down today river was low as could be this time they only raised the water near the dam 1.5-2 foot. Caught no leaves nor seen any leaves in the water.



Young Man, the leaves don't pile up in front of the dam much on a west wind, especially 15-25 mph west. Last week the winds were from the south 30-40 mph and that pushes the leaves right up to the dam.That's why they dump water all of a sudden. For draw downs, the water stay up for a few days.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Spanky said:


> Young Man, the leaves don't pile up in front of the dam much on a west wind, especially 15-25 mph west. Last week the winds were from the south 30-40 mph and that pushes the leaves right up to the dam.That's why they dump water all of a sudden. For draw downs, the water stay up for a few days.


 I dont think wind had much to do with it, and really dont mind fishing in leaves.


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## foxfire69 (Sep 10, 2006)

thousandcasts
Whether you chase carp in the mill ponds near the headwaters or catfish around Union City and Mottville or salmon and steelhead from Twin Branches to the mouth said:


> Excellent points TC! I also fish these waters including Constantine down to "Berrium Springs"! Very diversified fishing and scenic! Thanks!!


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

foxfire69 said:


> Excellent points TC! I also fish these waters including Constantine down to "Berrium Springs"! Very diversified fishing and scenic! Thanks!!


 I would love to try some Pike fishing up river. I remember seeing an old T.V. show of guys musky fishing on the St. Joe somewhere down in Indiana.


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## jrcrackbaby (Oct 28, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> I would love to try some Pike fishing up river. I remember seeing an old T.V. show of guys musky fishing on the St. Joe somewhere down in Indiana.


 
Just last week a guy told me that he had once caught a Musky out of the Joe. I really didn't know if I should have believed him or not. But I also thought, hell I guess any thing is possible. Before you ask, no....he didn't tell me where in the river...:lol:


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

lol yea my friend was in the paper this spring with one he caught fishing for steelhead. :yikes:


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> As a friend of a friend I dont see why you question what was said. Next time I will take pictures for you. As we all know the water by the dam when the flood gates are opened would rise fast then spread out down stream. The whole river below the dam did not go up 4 feet. By the river near the dam it did. And It stayed that high for over a day (About time)


 
Friend of a friend??? Not sure who that would be...


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

jrcrackbaby said:


> Just last week a guy told me that he had once caught a Musky out of the Joe. I really didn't know if I should have believed him or not. But I also thought, hell I guess any thing is possible. Before you ask, no....he didn't tell me where in the river...:lol:


They are very few and far between, BUT there are plans to begin managing the lower sections as a trophy Musky fishery once they get broodstock with the new "Great Lakes Strain" of Musky which are immune to VHS. Personally I would much rather see my tax dollars go towards bringing back native species to the fishery than transplants from out West. Simply put they have more of a right to be here...


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## wolvron (Apr 17, 2008)

jrcrackbaby said:


> Just last week a guy told me that he had once caught a Musky out of the Joe. I really didn't know if I should have believed him or not. But I also thought, hell I guess any thing is possible. Before you ask, no....he didn't tell me where in the river...:lol:


 
Last summer there was a giant caught between Buchanan and Niles dams. I want to say it was pushing the 50" mark.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

wolvron said:


> Last summer there was a giant caught between Buchanan and Niles dams. I want to say it was pushing the 50" mark.


Yeah, was awfully sad to see that photo in the paper with him sitting in his driveway holding such a beautiful fish...

30+ years ago they used to stock Lake Chapin here with Tiger Muskies, they are all obviously dead now though...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Boozer said:


> Friend of a friend??? Not sure who that would be...


 I am friends with Wolvron, You are friends with Wolvron. A friend of a friend.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> I am friends with Wolvron, You are friends with Wolvron. A friend of a friend.


Ok, just was curious who it might be, was a bit confused, had no idea you and Ron were buds...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Boozer said:


> They are very few and far between, BUT there are plans to begin managing the lower sections as a trophy Musky fishery once they get broodstock with the new "Great Lakes Strain" of Musky which are immune to VHS. Personally I would much rather see my tax dollars go towards bringing back native species to the fishery than transplants from out West. Simply put they have more of a right to be here...


 I couldnt agree more. Although to think these muskies will stay in the river all year I doubt. They will return to the lake just as the smallies and walleye do. Providing a much needed native lake fishery, that could rival St. Clair.


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