# Citizens Waterfowl Advisory Committee Meeting Aug. 6th.



## goosemanrdk

Mike L said:


> A shutdown in October is just plain out of the question ! Tennis shoe hunters are out in force...= $$$$$
> Yep, and that is exactly why I threw anything like what Ferris State hunter proposed OUT THE WINDOW. With his you loose 12 October days, after the initial opener, over 5 in my proposal. Just a hard cold fact ! "You" look at the numbers from last year. And this is "Only" at FP......
> You can't close when there's thousands of ducks here ?
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2010-11_Weekly_waterfowl_counts_Fish_Point_SWA_333904_7.pdf


If you want to play numbers, go look at the Mallard numbers for the Fennville Todd farm. The last 2 years zone 3 has been closed when that area has been at its peak(thousands of mallards).


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## Shiawassee_Kid

Mike L said:


> A shutdown in October is just plain out of the question ! Tennis shoe hunters are out in force...= $$$$$ Just a hard cold fact ! "You" look at the numbers from last year. And this is "Only" at FP......
> You can't close when there's thousands of ducks here ?
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2010-11_Weekly_waterfowl_counts_Fish_Point_SWA_333904_7.pdf


thank you....now get back into ZONE 2 for me so we don't need to have this conversation every year.

go read his dates for zone 2...those are god damn fantastic for fish point....but yet you guys won't ******* budge out of the zone or give some later dates.


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## Bellyup

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> I like it... But more what I was thinking was an "opening weekend.
> 
> Z1-9/24-9/25 then 10/8-12/4
> 
> 
> Z2-10/1-10/2 then 10/15-12/11
> 
> 
> Z3-10/8-10/9 then 10/22-12/18
> 
> I'd love to see the inverse of what we have now.. Two day split in front, then 58 straight days.
> 
> Fuges can have two openers... Perhaps two drawings? Fits both shoestring hunters and die hards.
> 
> I think everyone would get a good chance at local birds early, then flights later on.. Also gives the locals some rest as a lot will stay around after the early opener...
> 
> Its just my opinion, but I think it fits everyone the best... Not one particular group in general
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like these dates from the SW MI perspective. I think the tennis shoe hunters would still be out in force as it is typically pretty warm all through October. Well, not 70 - 80 degrees but in the 50's and 60's anyways. I could really get behind those dates Ferris.


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## duckbuster2

Duck and goose hunting in michigan belong in Oct. and Nov. only , if you
want to hunt later have a special late season diver hunt.


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## TSS Caddis

goosemanrdk said:


> So what says everyone, on a comparison basis, about the dates I proposed earlier.
> 
> Zone 1
> 9/24-10/2, then 10/8-11/27
> 
> Zone 2
> 10/1-10/9, then 10/15-12/4
> 
> Zone 3
> 10/8-10/16, then 10/22-12/11
> 
> Just curios?


Not bad, but if Sag Bay is in zone 3 I'd prefer the split a week earlier.


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## Mike L

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> I would support bay move to zone 2 only under the understanding that its start/stop dates were similar to what it is now (current zone 3 config).


This I agree with 100%......Keep the dates the same as we had last year and I have no problem with the Bay moving to zone 2. But, how about the guys that are currently in zone two. I believe they wanted no change. How would that impact them ?

I can see the southern boys want a back loaded season I don't blame them.If I lived there I would as well. *If,* and I stress If ! The Bay moved into zone 2 you would "Half" to have a second Saturday in Oct opener. The DNR itself recognized the overcrowding issue years ago.hence the Bay is in zone 3.
Now, with the water gone/down it's even worse than it was before. Bow hunters and duck hunters on the bay shore at the same time on opening day is a fight looking to happen, and people have weapons in there hands.

So fine put the Bay in zone two as far as I'm concerned, but you better get feedback from the current zone two boys and see how a week later opener would effect them.
And as far as a split ?....IMO the Bay itself doesn't need one !

Make a dividing line zone 2/3 of M-46 across the state making a little jog around Shi refuge to keep them in zone 3 and go with the proposed season dates. That gives southern Mi the later in Dec hunt they desire and makes "Most" of the hunters happy. That's all I have to say on the subject ! 
I'm DONE !.............


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## FullBody

goosemanrdk said:


> So what says everyone, on a comparison basis, about the dates I proposed earlier.
> 
> Zone 1
> 9/24-10/2, then 10/8-11/27
> 
> Zone 2
> 10/1-10/9, then 10/15-12/4
> 
> Zone 3
> 10/8-10/16, then 10/22-12/11
> 
> Just curios?


I like it a lot!!


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## FullBody

ferris_statehunter said:


> i like it... But more what i was thinking was an "opening weekend.
> 
> Z1-9/24-9/25 then 10/8-12/4
> 
> 
> z2-10/1-10/2 then 10/15-12/11
> 
> 
> z3-10/8-10/9 then 10/22-12/18
> 
> i'd love to see the inverse of what we have now.. Two day split in front, then 58 straight days.
> 
> _posted via mobile device_


love this!!


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## Branta

Obviously, there's valid arguments on either side or for one position or another.

Not going to chirp personally on the subject other than to say;

* I think its prudent to have three separate zone openers - put them where you wish

*it'd seem logical to have them on consecutive wkends

* if you get a split option, you use it

* its not unpresidented to have an opener, then shut er down for even 5 days (look to our neighbors here)
(And what are you losing? 5 WEEKDAYS? -most hunt wkends, right? So affect is minimized.

* front loaded split would need to be communicated well to all.
(We did this once already with zone 2 one year), next law enforce/cwac mtg winter report included the spike in number of citations to people that "thought" season was open vs closed.)


Continue on!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FullBody

LoBrass.....I appreciate the progressive thinking your bringing to the table. I look forward to seeing what you can get changed. With that said....I would MUCH rather see a front loaded split.


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## duckcommander101

TSS Caddis said:


> Out of curiosity, where are you hunting? I ask since I was under the impression you hunt LSC and I view you as one of the guys on the site that knows what they are doing. So if you are hunting LSC and that is your experience with December, it sort of goes against what we have been hearing that all the LSC guys want to go later.


I hunt primarily in the "Dead Zone" as it is referred to when the DNR does there duck count flyovers. That area consisting of the Lower Detroit River and the immediate portions of Erie adjacent to the river.

It's tough to get a crew that can go up to St. Clair because so many guys can only get permission to hunt for a few hours in the AM due to being WHIPPED (I go whenever I want to and rarely here any crying from the wife); let alone put together a competent crew to layout shoot (I am not comfortable layout shooting with two guys unless it is in areas I am very familiar with and real close to help should we need it), when we do head up that way we usually do VERY well.

We generally do decent down here (patience is the key, as well as hitting areas that others overlook), but the last few years the birds have been beat up or nonexistent the last week of the season and we have primarily killed geese, buffies and mergs- if we want to shoot them.

Nothing wrong with that, just would prefer some big ducks over the decoys as I don't much care for goose as tablefare and Buffies are alot of work to clean for little return as far as eats.


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## anon2192012

I really like Ferris's dates from a SW MI perspective. Rob's are decent and better than LB's IMO because I do like the front loaded split. Tennis shoe hunters will still buy a licence if they were to get out 1 time a year or 5. Heck, a LOT of them hunt opening day and that is it anyways. So with an opener around the same dates(nice weather) that we have always had I don't think you would see much if any loss in revenue even if the season didn't open back up till the end of Oct.

It is nice though that the powers that be are finally talking change.


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## Dahmer

goosemanrdk said:


> So what says everyone, on a comparison basis, about the dates I proposed earlier.
> 
> Zone 1
> 9/24-10/2, then 10/8-11/27
> 
> Zone 2
> 10/1-10/9, then 10/15-12/4
> 
> Zone 3
> 10/8-10/16, then 10/22-12/11
> 
> Just curios?


I prefer these dates alot better then the one that are proposed. I can't see having the spilt in November, Thats when the divers start show up in force.


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## LoBrass

Lots of interesting fodder.

Please note, my proposal is just that-a proposal. It was a carefully thought out schedule that was designed to do exactly what I felt would cover the most bases in the most efficient way possible. That being said, the likelyhood of it getting to press in that form is slim at best. No problem, this is *NOT *the LoBrass show. (Honestly, I was just ready to get a pulse-it worked:coolgleam)

Remember, as Branta pointed out, 
we have 3 zones and should have 3 separate openers, 
we have the option to split each zone 1 time and should do so
and, I'll add, we should hunt ducks when the majority of ducks are here. 

I am not _completely_ opposed to a split nearer the beginning of the season. My main concern is that we lose hunting days in October. The ducks killed per hunter day is highest in October. It has nothing to do with more hunters in October-it's ducks killed *per hunter day*. What ducks are represented most in hunter bags in this state? Mallards. What is number 2? Wood ducks. Seems logical that we should really try to pattern these ducks to maximize participation. Not trying to purposely alienate any pursuit but participation is VERY important to "the powers that be". 

My secondary concern is that we lose days to freeze up. Anyone who has attended a CWAC meeting over the last five years will know that I bring this up at nearly every meeting. Every year winter will freeze water and when that happens duck hunting participation declines exponentially. Avoid freezing weather by having open seasons earlier as opposed to later-pretty simple. 

My proposal has nothing to do with any group making "concessions". It is simply relating to hunting ducks when ducks are here. My plan was designed to consider all these angles yet still get more days in December. I certainly recognize the desire to hunt December (or later for that matter) to see improved success in dry fields, to toll divers on the Great Lakes or to simply hunt with less competition. It's all good.

We have a great waterfowling tradition in Michigan where we can hunt an incredibly diverse set of environments and situations to take many different species of waterfowl. It is quite a challenge to cover all the bases.

I'll be back later to shed light on goose seasons.

Carry on.


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## just ducky

Mike L said:


> ....You can't close when there's thousands of ducks here?....


A lot of people have said similar things...don't close when all of the ducks are here. Well think about this a minute...they may be here, but are they huntable? What I mean by that is there may be 20k ducks in the refuge at SRSGA or FP on 10/20, but do they come out and are they huntable? So what if there are tons of ducks around if they're all educated and don't move? Last year was a prime example, where most of us experienced a lull a couple weeks into the season. A string of hot, sunny, bluebird days caused the birds to become vampires, feeding and moving only at night. But they weren't having anything to do with coming out to play with hunters. So what's the difference if the season is open during that lull if all we're doing is sitting out there making animals out of the clouds? Oh wait...there were no clouds!!! Wouldn't the reopener, whether it's a week down the road or longer, be a great hunting opportunity? And maybe...just maybe...extending the season on the tail end means we have one of those years where freeze up in the inland areas comes later, like mid-December. We could still be hunting when there's A POSSIBILITY of some flights. That's all I'm saying.


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## smiley1544

For zone 3 I think the dates in the first post are great. We lose 5 weekdays in exchange for extra days in December. 


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## multibeard

Quote for post #1
Zone 2
Open Oct. 1 shut down Nov. 14
Re-Open Nov. 24 close season Dec. 8

I could care less about the big time eastern michigan LSC duck hunters. This just looks like it would be Shut us Down and freeze us out for the majority of the northern lower.


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## Ferris_StateHunter

LoBrass said:


> I am not _completely_ opposed to a split nearer the beginning of the season. My main concern is that we lose hunting days in October. The ducks killed per hunter day is highest in October. It has nothing to do with more hunters in October-it's ducks killed *per hunter day*. What ducks are represented most in hunter bags in this state? Mallards. What is number 2? Wood ducks. Seems logical that we should really try to pattern these ducks to maximize participation. Not trying to purposely alienate any pursuit but participation is VERY important to "the powers that be".


By chance are these numbers on the DNR site? And if so, are they broken down by days, weeks, or just a month in total?

I ask these questions for just some reasoning behind this logic. I will agree totally that the last two weeks of october are usually prime time for flights, but also we have to consider this number to be apart of the opening weekend flurry of hunters all across this state. Which would equate to more ducks killed per hunting day. 

But its merely my opinion, and an opinion alone, that the two middle weeks in october are relatively low for hunter success. Main reason for this is the locals are all shot up and either moved on or nocturnal, and secondly the majority of flights have not came down. 

I for the life of me, can not see nor have ever experienced, october as a whole, being better in harvest than november. If anything about equal.


Lastly, about the freeze up. I know its a big concern, and should be taken into account, but personally, I think it gets taken into account more than it should. 

The fields get hot during freeze up, and every area has some form of water that stays open well into december, and more often than not are huntable areas. 

I personally recall a time back in college when a buddy of mine and myself went ice fishing when we ran into a guy who was duck hunting the other end of the lake next to a dam where the lake remained open well into january.


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## lang49

goosemanrdk said:


> Zone 2
> 10/1-10/9, then 10/15-12/4


This is exactly what we used to have in zone 2 (back in the late 90's and early 2000's) until the DNR sited enforcement reasons and eliminated it. I like it, but i'd like it better if it was a longer split and got us out later into December.


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## lang49

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Z2-10/1-10/2 then 10/15-12/11


I agree! This would be an awesome set of dates for me.


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## DEDGOOSE

goosemanrdk said:


> So what says everyone, on a comparison basis, about the dates I proposed earlier.
> 
> Zone 1
> 9/24-10/2, then 10/8-11/27
> 
> Zone 2
> 10/1-10/9, then 10/15-12/4
> 
> Zone 3
> 10/8-10/16, then 10/22-12/11
> 
> Just curios?


Like alot.. For zone 2.. Who gives a crap about shooting wood ducks for another week.. Opens up when we start seeing flight mallards.. 4 days in Dec could be rough, but the small streams are hot this time of year..


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## Swamp Boss

SK ,

You are ignoring an important point-the old Nov 14 shutdown during the 30 day season was the end of the season-you take 10 days after Nov 14 with the dates advocated by LB and you will soon be talking freeze up conditions in many years and pretty much the end of the season for the majority of hunters. Acknowledging that there would be roughly 15 days longer on the front end under the proposed dates , however, there is going to be the same two week 'dead zone' after opening week (44-14=30). Yeah you have a 60 day season-- with a couple of Catch 22 hooks to it. 

Many ducks move on weather fronts.When you take a chunk of time in November when those fronts have a high likelihood of occurring you are not making a decision that is rational w/liberal limits or in terms of hunter recruitment.

All things said, I would favor keeping the old dates/ zones, arguments etc compared to this proposal if I have to park my **** on the couch and watch that big old Northern gale come blowing through during that 10 day closure.

Looking forward to the next 12 pages of this one...


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## LoBrass

Early goose is already set and are similar to last season in all respects. Local goose numbers are down from last year based on surveys and banding data. We are within management goals.

Regular goose seasons are still operating under the 45 days and 2 bird limit set up last year. This was put in place to stabilize our seasons and limit the micro-managing that had previously taken place regarding migrant (MVP and SJBP) geese. Good thing as those populations are down from last year. We will likely see fewer migrant geese this fall.

The UP regular season is already set. I'm quite certain it starts the 17th of Sept. but I failed to make note of the date from the March meeting. Someone please chime in.

The southern zones will be voted on in August and recommendations will be made then. Much will hinge upon the duck season dates regarding the establishment of our regular goose seasons.

FWIW, I made contact with a farmer buddy today. It was a very positive outcome (depending upon with whom you are concerned-me or the local geese).

One final note worth interjecting regarding diver duck migration-*On November 3, 2010 the Coordinated Canvasback Survey reported 140,560 canvasback ducks on Lake St. Clair.* Just sayin'.


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## LoBrass

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> By chance are these numbers on the DNR site?


Don't know about on the website but contact Barb Avers, Michigan Waterfowl Specialist, and she will be able to give you that data.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

> Z1-9/24-9/25 then 10/8-12/4
> 
> 
> Z2-10/1-10/2 then 10/15-12/11
> 
> 
> Z3-10/8-10/9 then 10/22-12/18


this right here is by far the best proposal across the board that i've seen. very similar to what i've been preaching. front loaded splits.

here's my only drawback. I want the Z2 dates for srsga and the bay. so move us into z2 and we are all good. those z2 dates totally give us a working split and exactly the right season.

no way would you be able to hunt FP, NQP or SRSGA after about 1st week of december. thats 2 weeks of lost season...which as much as i would like to give a little for the southern hunters...i'm not giving 2 weeks. bump us to z2 and problem solved.


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## field-n-feathers

goosemanrdk said:


> So what says everyone, on a comparison basis, about the dates I proposed earlier.
> 
> Zone 1
> 9/24-10/2, then 10/8-11/27
> 
> Zone 2
> 10/1-10/9, then 10/15-12/4
> 
> Zone 3
> 10/8-10/16, then 10/22-12/11
> 
> Just curios?


Very nice.



Ferris_StateHunter said:


> I like it... But more what I was thinking was an "opening weekend.
> 
> Z1-9/24-9/25 then 10/8-12/4
> 
> 
> Z2-10/1-10/2 then 10/15-12/11
> 
> 
> Z3-10/8-10/9 then 10/22-12/18


Even better.



Branta said:


> * front loaded split would need to be communicated well to all.
> (We did this once already with zone 2 one year), next law enforce/cwac mtg winter report included the spike in number of citations to people that "thought" season was open vs closed.)


I see what you're saying.......but it's absolutely ridiculous that we are using that excuse as a reason to not set a season. It's not the fault of almost all of us that didn't have to go to the Zoolander school for children who really, really, really, really can't read good. 



DEDGOOSE said:


> Like alot.. For zone 2.. Who gives a crap about shooting wood ducks for another week.. Opens up when we start seeing flight mallards.. 4 days in Dec could be rough, but the small streams are hot this time of year..


Ssssh. Don't give away all the good info. LOL!


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## Shiawassee_Kid

here's my revised dream zones and revised dream dates. 








[/IMG]


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## field-n-feathers

^^^^^^Great pic. Looks like a good dream.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

field-n-feathers said:


> ^^^^^^Great pic. Looks like a good dream.


talking about openers....thats 6 openers. 6 opening days. count them....6 brand new opening days!!!! hehe. dream season.


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## wavie

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Z3-10/8-10/9 then 10/22-12/18
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I object to the 10/22 reopener as that is during my annual trip to Saskatchewan. I might have to change my plans.


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## just ducky

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> here's my revised dream zones and revised dream dates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]


You posted this at 1am??? :yikes: WOW...you are dreaming :evilsmile But not saying I really disagree. In fact I see a lot of good ideas in this thread, and it's still civil after 6 pages :idea:


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## just ducky

Regarding these proposed dates:

Z1-9/24-9/25 then 10/8-12/4


Z2-10/1-10/2 then 10/15-12/11


Z3-10/8-10/9 then 10/22-12/18

Not saying I totally disagree. I just prefer to be open for two full weekends, then shut down for some period of time. Reason is the areas I hunt usually stay reasonably productive through the first full week, then there's the typical lull. Plus some hunters can't arrange to hunt that first weekend, but could the second weekend. So with the objective of maximizing opportunity in the field, I'm suggesting we open on a Saturday and hunt through the following Sunday, then close for some period of time. my .02


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## Shiawassee_Kid

just ducky said:


> Regarding these proposed dates:
> 
> Z1-9/24-9/25 then 10/8-12/4
> 
> 
> Z2-10/1-10/2 then 10/15-12/11
> 
> 
> Z3-10/8-10/9 then 10/22-12/18
> 
> Not saying I totally disagree. I just prefer to be open for two full weekends, then shut down for some period of time. Reason is the areas I hunt usually stay reasonably productive through the first full week, then there's the typical lull. Plus some hunters can't arrange to hunt that first weekend, but could the second weekend. So with the objective of maximizing opportunity in the field, I'm suggesting we open on a Saturday and hunt through the following Sunday, then close for some period of time. my .02


can't do that because now your splitting on migration heavy days. this is why when me and you talked i didn't like the proposal you had. pushed us way to far back into Oct. 

the problem with trying to use a split to conquer a LULL is that you can not predict when the LULL will be. And to be honest, we're not trying to solve the LULL with a split.


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## just ducky

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> can't do that because now your splitting on migration heavy days. this is why when me and you talked i didn't like the proposal you had. pushed us way to far back into Oct.
> 
> the problem with trying to use a split to conquer a LULL is that you can not predict when the LULL will be. And to be honest, we're not trying to solve the LULL with a split.


I'll agree that we're not trying to solve the lull, but it is part of the equation (at least in my mind) so why not use historical patterns of when the lull occurs to try to take advantage of it, and at the same time potentially increase opportunity on the other end (December?). Again, gotta think over the whole of zone 3, not just SRSGA. 

Not disagreeing with you...just trying to look at a big picture of all of zone 3. We at SRSGA may give up a bit (although I don't think we would), but some of the guys in SW Michigan would gain, at least I think they would.


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## TSS Caddis

just ducky said:


> AWhat I mean by that is there may be 20k ducks in the refuge at SRSGA or FP on 10/20, but do they come out and are they huntable?


If you live by the sword, you may die by the sword. If people chose to surround the refuge praying to get fresh birds or weather, you get what that hand deals you.



just ducky said:


> So what's the difference if the season is open during that lull if all we're doing is sitting out there making animals out of the clouds?


Your basically saying duck bingo is the center of the waterfowl universe. Bingo may have a lull, but that doesn't mean there is a lull everywhere.


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## TSS Caddis

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> But its merely my opinion, and an opinion alone, that the two middle weeks in october are relatively low for hunter success.


I'd think most would agree.


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## TSS Caddis

Swamp Boss said:


> Many ducks move on weather fronts.When you take a chunk of time in November when those fronts have a high likelihood of occurring you are not making a decision that is rational w/liberal limits


Exactly.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

just ducky said:


> I'll agree that we're not trying to solve the lull, but it is part of the equation (at least in my mind) so why not use historical patterns of when the lull occurs to try to take advantage of it, and at the same time potentially increase opportunity on the other end (December?). Again, gotta think over the whole of zone 3, not just SRSGA.
> 
> Not disagreeing with you...just trying to look at a big picture of all of zone 3. We at SRSGA may give up a bit (although I don't think we would), but some of the guys in SW Michigan would gain, at least I think they would.


rather see SRSGA go to zone 2 so we don't have to compromise.  we would get similar dates and z3 can do what they want.


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## TSS Caddis

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> here's my revised dream zones and revised dream dates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]


That would solve part of the concern I have.

Some of the dates currently being thrown around for Zone 2 would be good for the Bay, BUT, with the way the world works, if you throw the Bay in Zone 2 this year, next year there would probably be bitching from Zone 2 guys about the dates. Then you have the risk that the dates may change for Zone 2 but the Bay stays there and get's stuck with an earlier close.


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## just ducky

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> rather see SRSGA go to zone 2 so we don't have to compromise.  we would get similar dates and z3 can do what they want.


Agree wholeheartedly, but from what I heard from Barb that idea is off the table for this year anyway. If they were looking at zone line changes, my thoughts would be different.


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## just ducky

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> ...hypothetical example: If 5 of 19 like the 2 day late season and 14 dislike it and want it changed. therefor it can never change...


a possibly more "close to home" example kind of on the lines of what Caddis said...if I read the Committee membership list correctly, there are 3 members from the UP. Let's say this year they all agree on 9/24 as an opener, but the rest of the CWAC wants 10/1 for the UP because it will make their opening dates easier to sell. Unless those three UP guys can convince A WHOLE BUNCH (like 12) of the remaining CWAC members to change, they could be overruled. A simple majority would only require 10 votes, which would be much easier for them to gather. 

Lobrass is right that it should be difficult to enact change...but it shouldn't be damn near impossible. JMO


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## field-n-feathers

If that's the case, then the rest of the members of CWAC shouldn't have any say so in what Zone 1 wants. Those 3 members represent the UP, let them decide what is best.

I also agree with Gene. I really have no say in what Zone 1 wants or needs. Let them decide for themselves. Likewise for all others. It's no different than the rest of Zone 3 being "held hostage" by the Bay. And I say that with no disrespect intended.

We can only do what we can do. It's impossible to make everyone happy. We aren't the only state that debates this issue year after year. Until something can change on a Federal level, and allow us 4 zones with a split.....our hands are probably tied to a point. Let's do the best we can.


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## PhilBernardi

There are counts across zones, but not for all dates that we'd like to know about because of season dates.

The "counts" I refer to are: DNR surveys, USFWS wing and tail feather data, USFWS surveys, and USFWS band data. And yes, the managed unit counts are there too.

Band data and wing/tail data are across zones, so is DNR survey - not sure about Fed survey but I suspect it too is across zones. 

Data is there to help assess when migrations come through from a historic perspective.


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## LoBrass

field-n-feathers said:


> Let's do the best we can.


I promise, we will.


As far as the UP reps and how the CWAC committee represents the state of Michigan, remember that 8 members of the committee have no boundries as they represent organizations. MUCC, DU, Waterfowl USA, among others, are all organizations which represent constituents across the state. The other 11 members "at large" are representing specific regions of the state but even they are simply "at large" members and could field input from any citizen. They are intended to gather input from their region. This is why one could see (if mapped) that they are from every corner of Michigan.

3 UP Committee members is not an accurate picture. What, no DU member from the UP? No MUCC members? I know for a fact there are Waterfowl USA members. Thus, I feel VERY confident in putting my $.02 worth on any UP date-I hear about it!!


----------



## LoBrass

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> talked to many who have served that board. the biggest complaint was the super majority. they felt they wasted a lot of time and getting no results because of the reason i stated earlier.
> 
> hypothetical example: If 5 of 19 like the 2 day late season and 14 dislike it and want it changed. therefor it can never change.
> 
> Only using the above situation as hypothetical....that 75% needs to be changed to something a little more realistic. that is all. It's not just me thinking it has to be...this is from many guys that served that council for years.


I've heard it too.

Kid Rock said it best: "You ain't never met a ****** ****** quite like me!!!" Just Sayin'.

I've already done _many_ things behind the scenes that will allow the system to work as it was originally intended. We *will* be a productive committee. I sat on the committee for 5 years and don't recall getting one call from another committee member. Not one committee member can say that now (talked to each with the exception of one that did not return calls):coolgleam. My study of RRoO has given me a crash course in committee work and it's been VERY enlightening. I'm a better person for it.

This forum is a way for me to "test the water". You guys need to contact your reps to _really_ make some noise. And I know most of you have or will.

Time to go home for me. 9 pages? Nicely done fellas.


----------



## decoy706

And yet the Saginaw Bay has NO rep as the closest one is at Wig Wam Bay(that's zone 2 ) and the other 2 are on the west side for zone 2
and we hate it in 3 :rant::rant::rant::rant::rant:
Put the Bay in 2 NOW!!!


----------



## Branta

Be careful when you talk about the voting processes/season setting protocol here.

those that aren't close to CWAC can only go by what you're presenting and even then, there's some inferences in some posts that quite frankly....

are very misleading.

the order of voting might be zone 1, 2, 3 because it's a logical progression and orderly, but that's about it. to infer that setting the season dates for the UP starts some kind of domino affect for everyone else is "_tail waggin' the dog_" thinking.

so if they (3 UP reps) took a twister and wanted to open on 9/16 or as late as 10/22... it'd fly? and then zone 2,3 would follow suit opening a week later?!! 

all season dates and proposals (not season date motions) are discussed in total. In theory, it shouldn't matter what order they're voted on. (maybe they should go backwards this year, starting with zone 3!  )


"why have everyone vote .... when not your zone..." because it's a vote for all of michigan waterfowlers and their opportunities.

the process is the same here as it is for alot of admin/govt voting; you may not be directly affected by a motion at City Hall (say funding for a park on the south side of town and you're a north sider, but as a rep in city council... you're going to vote on it.)

lastly, CWAC is Advisory only - they don't "set" anything. IF the MDNR thinks the final season proposal from CWAC is way out of whack, they'll adjust it. hasn't seem to happen in the most recent past, but it's not unpresidented either.

carry on!


----------



## just ducky

Branta said:


> ...the order of voting might be zone 1, 2, 3 because it's a logical progression and orderly, but that's about it. to infer that setting the season dates for the UP starts some kind of domino affect for everyone else is "_tail waggin' the dog_" thinking...


Well I know I haven't been to many CWAC meetings, but the one's I've seen have clearly been this way. Hammer out Zone 1, then the other two follow. I would LOVE to see this years discussion start out by deciding zone 3 first, then work north. I just can't imagine the group going for that.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

i also want to point out for the zone 1 guys that think zone 2/3 make the decisions for them. 

it doesn't happen. every year they let the zone 1 guys or anyone interested in zone 1 hammer it out and figure it out. from what i seen or heard they let them figure it out and make the recommendation and then everyone goes with what they come up with.

zone 3 guys making suggestions on here is just that. making suggestions.

example: last year z1 guys wanted to open same as z2....so it passed. pissed off a lot of people but the rest of the zone reps didnt really care much and didn't want to step on z1 toes. it was their decision.


----------



## Branta

just ducky said:


> Well I know I haven't been to many CWAC meetings, but the one's I've seen have clearly been this way. Hammer out Zone 1, then the other two follow. I would LOVE to see this years discussion start out by deciding zone 3 first, then work north. I just can't imagine the group going for that.


it's gone south to north before!

I just happen to have some past meeting notes lying around here and the first pull showed that's how it went down; They knocked out zone 3 first.

chronology:
the opening debates were all centered around south zone, then
3 motions/discussions on different south zone packages that didn't carry, then the fourth package date passed: 12-3


then a proposal to start north/middle on same date: not carried 4-10,1 abs.
then a motion to have the north zone start last week in sept. passed 14-1
Then the middle zone first week oct. passed 12-2, 1 abs.

my point yesterday was that I didn't want guys from zone 2 & 3 thinking that ultimately, their season dates are predicated on what zone 1 decides to do.

(edit) - LB, maybe you should make it a point to do just that this year (knock out South zone first) - shake them up a bit!


----------



## luke10

decoy706 said:


> And yet the Saginaw Bay has NO rep as the closest one is at Wig Wam Bay(that's zone 2 ) and the other 2 are on the west side for zone 2
> and we hate it in 3 :rant::rant::rant::rant::rant:
> Put the Bay in 2 NOW!!!


I agree, then we would be able to work out a season with other hunters from zone 2.Bottom line is the worst case scenario in zone 2 is still better than the worst case scenario in zone 3 IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## goosemanrdk

Bellyup said:


> That being said, anyone want to start a pool as to how little to nothing is going to change for this year ?:idea:


I REALLY hope that this is not the case!!!


----------



## duckbuster2

That being said, anyone want to start a pool as to how little to nothing is going to change for this year ?:idea:[/QUOTE]


GOOD !!!


----------



## just ducky

Branta said:


> it's gone south to north before!
> 
> I just happen to have some past meeting notes lying around here and the first pull showed that's how it went down; They knocked out zone 3 first.
> 
> chronology:
> the opening debates were all centered around south zone, then
> 3 motions/discussions on different south zone packages that didn't carry, then the fourth package date passed: 12-3
> 
> 
> then a proposal to start north/middle on same date: not carried 4-10,1 abs.
> then a motion to have the north zone start last week in sept. passed 14-1
> Then the middle zone first week oct. passed 12-2, 1 abs.
> 
> my point yesterday was that I didn't want guys from zone 2 & 3 thinking that ultimately, their season dates are predicated on what zone 1 decides to do.
> 
> (edit) - LB, maybe you should make it a point to do just that this year (knock out South zone first) - shake them up a bit!


thanks for the historical data there Russell. No I didn't mean to imply that what zone 1 does decides their dates, but it could have a big impact. I can't see anyone going for a huge gap in dates between the opener in zone 1, and the opener in zone 2...then again you'll probably dig up some minutes showing that happened as well :lol: My point is it would be nice to see them hammer out zone 3 first (even though as you said it's happened before).


----------



## TSS Caddis

decoy706 said:


> And yet the Saginaw Bay has NO rep as the closest one is at Wig Wam Bay(that's zone 2 ) and the other 2 are on the west side for zone 2
> and we hate it in 3 :rant::rant::rant::rant::rant:
> Put the Bay in 2 NOW!!!


Again, no rationale ?

Count me out of your "we". My "we" wants to kill birds later into the year, not swat mosquitos.


----------



## decoy706

We are stuck with the zone 3 reps who could care less about Sag Bay hunters who are froze out every year because we are stuck in zone 3 instead of 2 where we should be.
All you guys care about is that all the Managed areas open at the same time so you and you buddies can get all the reserved hunts
:rant:


----------



## Dahmer

decoy706 said:


> We are stuck with the zone 3 reps who could care less about Sag Bay hunters who are froze out every year because we are stuck in zone 3 instead of 2 where we should be.
> All you guys care about is that all the Managed areas open at the same time so you and you buddies can get all the reserved hunts
> :rant:


Thats pretty funny. I hunt the Saginaw Bay have not been froze out in the last 10 years. So your statement that we are all froze out every year is false.


----------



## lewy149

Yeah I was really confused on that post. I've hunted NP around Thanksgiving breaking a quarter inch of ice at most. and had the best days I've had there. By 9 o'clock it had all burned off anyway. We weren't even froze in the backwaters in zone 2 last year. All you need is open launches and there's all the birds you want out there. You just can't be afraid to get cold.


----------



## decoy706

Dahmer
remember you hunt the east side not the west and out in open water but what about those of use that don't have that option


----------



## duckbuster2

Dahmer said:


> Thats pretty funny. I hunt the Saginaw Bay have not been froze out in the last 10 years. So your statement that we are all froze out every year is false.


So is this one.


----------



## just ducky

Branta said:


> ...A sea duck season sounds interesting....


While we're at it, let's ask the NRC to approve a Yeti season, or a spotted owl season, because about as many people target them as those that *target *sea ducks here. Damn few.

Now, if you're talking about rearranging the zones to create a "great lakes and connecting waters" season, vs. "inland" areas (which is something I've actually proposed to the DNR), then I'm behind you


----------



## Bellyup

LoBrass said:


> Pacific Flyway has had 90 day seasons for years. Maybe _that_ _is why_ they all get divorced!!
> 
> We should be hammering our state over water access, urban hunting access and acquisition of more public hunting areas too.
> 
> I still feel that the variety of duck hunting opportunity within the state of Michigan is really no different than that of say-Massachusetts. There, they have separate seaduck hunts complete with different bag limits. Not unlike separate goose seasons. These type of requests or seasons would help to differentiate our target species and make setting our seasons less of a contention between the various factions of hunters. No doubt _creating opportunity:coolgleam._
> 
> The populations merely must be able to handle the hunts. Separation of seaducks (in our case billys, reds, cans, buffies, scoters, squaws and mergs) from the puddle ducks shouldn't be that difficult. ID of birds would be critical for those that hunt the big waters. I just don't think ID issues should ever be a deciding factor when it comes to regulation setting. Teal seasons have had these issues for years in other states and the populations have still thrived.
> 
> We have options, IMO.



_LoBrass, get off the CWAC. Head up the NRC or DNR or wherever it is that has the most authority. Your efforts are wasted with the CWAC, as you see the big picture. You need to be on an appointing commission and not an advisory commission._
_[/COLOR]_ 
_The problem in MI is WAY beyond simple season dates. Way beyond that. CWAC can only work with what MI has currently. Expand oppurtunity and things will improve. _


----------



## TSS Caddis

just ducky said:


> While we're at it, let's ask the NRC to approve a Yeti season, or a spotted owl season, because about as many people target them as those that *target *sea ducks here. Damn few.


And it basically coincides with duck season, so you gain nothing dates wise and stand to have your 6 sea ducks you can currently shoot taken down to 4 like other states.

Nothing to gain.


----------



## LoBrass

Bellyup, you've made me blush. I don't know if I could handle the NRC. The deer guys are brutal.

And JD, I'd push for a wolf season far before a Yeti season.

My entire thought on these issues and others is to simply explore every possibility and form a more perfect waterfowling Utopia for Michigan. I have said there isn't that much to do.


----------



## Branta

My mistake for not being clear - meant a great lakes/connecting waters (LSC) season.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just ducky

Branta said:


> My mistake for not being clear - meant a great lakes/connecting waters (LSC) season.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:woohoo1::woohoo1:
Can you just hear me humming that theme to Rocky...okay, well maybe you don't want to hear that :lol:
But I honestly wish there was a way to get the feds to understand that the state of Michigan by nature is different than other states in our flyway because we are surrounded by water...BIG water. Therefore what is wrong with the thought of treating us a bit differently than Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee...yada...yada...yada. WE NEED A SEPARATE ZONE, just like the fishing regulations have (I know...I know...the state sets the fishing regulations). But the fact remains it makes damn good sense. 

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now.


----------



## Blacklab77

TSS Caddis said:


> Too broad of a spectrum. Some guys are lucky to need 20 tags per year, some need 150+.


Your right TSS I think the average bird kill per hunter in Michigan is 8.5 for the season. I'm not saying its perfect system your right. But I'm sure with some work it could be done. Right now our biggest problem year in and year out is the season dates. Not bag limits, Types of birds taken, equipment used, hunting areas. Its DATES for each zone! The only way to end this whole arguement is to can the F'ing Zone concept completely. Its broken, been broken, will continue to stay broken. Because of such a broad base of hunters this state has.

To SK 400+ not sure thats possible an be within the law but hey everyone is using fuzz math these days.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

Blacklab77 said:


> To SK 400+ not sure thats possible an be within the law but hey everyone is using fuzz math these days.


yeah i used 400 to emphasize my point...but 200 would be more accurate. would i hit 200 in a season? probably not. In a season like 06' i would hate to be limited by tags.


----------



## lewy149

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yeah i used 400 to emphasize my point...but 200 would be more accurate. would i hit 200 in a season? probably not. In a season like 06' i would hate to be limited by tags.


So how would you ever justify giving one Guy 200 tags and another 20?


----------



## TSS Caddis

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> would hate to be limited by tags.


Exacly. If the 8.5/hunter number is correct, then what tag count would they limit a person to? Probably not much more than that.

I think I killed something like 145 last year and I know someone that was around 200. 9 tags would be 1 hour of hunting for a lot of guys.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

lewy149 said:


> So how would you ever justify giving one Guy 200 tags and another 20?


lewy: i don't and thats the point. read my previous posts.


----------



## lewy149

Agreeing with you kid. You can't do it.


----------



## lewy149

Plus there be people that get grandpa and wife's tags and just slay them. When you put 500 birds through the rig it wouldn't take many trips to be over your tags and filling other peoples. People do it with deer.


----------



## Brougham

Sorry I'm late on this, been away for awhile.

I like the set opener dates for planning trips. Last Sat in Sept, first two Sat's in Oct. 
Not at all happy with a zone chop on Saginaw Bay, and it should stay in Zone 3.
Not a fan of inner season splits. Run around. Try to find some birds. Hunt when you can.
6 ducks 60 days has worked good in my opinion. And the current structure has kept the waterfowlers I know in the game.


----------



## Ferris_StateHunter

Brougham said:


> Sorry I'm late on this, been away for awhile.
> 
> I like the set opener dates for planning trips. Last Sat in Sept, first two Sat's in Oct.
> Not at all happy with a zone chop on Saginaw Bay, and it should stay in Zone 3.
> Not a fan of inner season splits. Run around. Try to find some birds. Hunt when you can.
> 6 ducks 60 days has worked good in my opinion. And the current structure has kept the waterfowlers I know in the game.


Any reason why the bay should stay in 3? Why you would be opposed to a split in october? 

What are your feelings should the feds ever get away from a 6/60 day season? As The states do not dictate that structure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Water_Hazard

Brougham said:


> Sorry I'm late on this, been away for awhile.
> 
> I like the set opener dates for planning trips. Last Sat in Sept, first two Sat's in Oct.
> *Not a fan of inner season splits.* Run around. Try to find some birds. Hunt when you can.
> 6 ducks 60 days has worked good in my opinion. And the current structure has kept the waterfowlers I know in the game.


Totally agree. With a 60 day season, no inner season splits are needed. If we went to 30, then we should be talking splits.


----------



## Water_Hazard

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Why you would be opposed to a split in october?


Look at the dates of the week I was sending you pictures when you were working. That is why I would be opposed.


----------



## Ferris_StateHunter

Water_Hazard said:


> Look at the dates of the week I was sending you pictures when you were working. That is why I would be opposed.


I am not going to say birds aren't around, they obviously are. But first you were in a rare group that was doing well during that time. 

You and I both know that the guys who dedicate a lot of time to duck hunting will increase their odds... You may not shoot limits all the time, but if you scout around there are birds to be found.

I guess with the mid split we are trying to keep the majority of hunters happy by trying to accomodate for the various types of hunting ops we have in this state. And yes since srsga is in zone 3 we still need to be conscious of the guys who hunt later in the season, if you ask me its only fair.

Besides, maybe with that type of split I can hunt some areas where I see birds all the time in december instead of sitting around watching them fly, praying it does not freeze up before the first of january
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

exactly why i would lobby for SRSGA to bump to zone 2 and run 60 day concurrently. Start october 8th.....straight thru. no splits.

i'm curious what current zone 2 thinks of about october 8th opener and straight 60.


----------



## TNL

Everyone seems to want a season that best fits how and where they hunt individually, not keeping the big picture in mind. Comprimise would be the key word here.


Does any science come into play or just the experinces that you have had during "X" amount of seasons? No one has been able to hunt in all areas of Michigan, all the time.


A super majority is actually a super minority, allowing veto power to a priviledged few. True democratic (small d) process comes with a simple majority. It's silly to have a few decide against a majority - that concept should be aborted even if it means there will be constant change.


Many, if not most, duck hunters never come to this site, much less post. So it's hard to draw any conclusions from such a limited sample.


If science has yet to figure how and excatly when migrations and freeze out will occur each year, then duck hunters sure as hell aren't going to do any better.


How come so little talk about goose seasons?
My _personal_ opinion is that Ferris SH had a pretty good proposal. Front load the split, 3 openers (more revenue ), and keep it simple. There will be nuances here and there across our great State, but it seems like a good jumpimg off point.

JMO - carry on.


----------



## trentonbill

I like the Zone 3 dates as proposed by FS Hunter with the front end split. In all honesty the reasons are all about what works for me at this time. I duck hunt whenever I can; alone or with one of my kids. With their involvement in Fall school sports they do not have the opportunity to hunt with dad through a great majority of October with games practices etc., time is limited. Last year my sons high school team got knocked out of regionals somewhere near the end of October begining November. Having all of November and a portion of December under FS Hunters proposal would give me more field time with my kids. Its a greedy personal argument but its mine.


----------



## TSS Caddis

Water_Hazard said:


> Totally agree. With a 60 day season, no inner season splits are needed. If we went to 30, then we should be talking splits.


This is a good example of why we should not use the words "we want", "they want" in these conversations.

Multiple flats hunters have posted and there are multiple opinions on what the season should be. 

Multiple bay hunters have posted and there are multiple opinions on what the season should be.

Multiple NLP hunters have posted and there are multiple opinions on what the season should be.

Multiple UP hunters have posted and there are multiple opinions on what the season should be.

Yet many posts, and possibly some of my own, reference what another group wants.

That is why I'm scared every time I hear anyone with an association to CWAC stateing "Bay guys want this", "SE Zone 3 want's this", "West side Bay hunters want this", "SW Zone 3 want's this".


----------



## lewy149

Does anyone else not really care? Set em and I'll kill em


----------



## Chez29

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> I like it... But more what I was thinking was an "opening weekend.
> 
> Z1-9/24-9/25 then 10/8-12/4
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As a guy who hunts the west/central UP I think these dates are a no go. You are giving up too many days at the end of Sept and beginning of Oct when we have guaranteed open water and huntable numbers of birds. By pushing the date back to 10/8 we lose out on all teal and most wood ducks who head out on first cold snaps. This gives us the equivalent of a 45 day season, as in most years by Nov 20 most lakes/ponds are frozen, even if open the number of birds around and locations you can hunt are very few. Some years Ive been froze up in many locations as early as Nov 8. With no agricultural fields to speak of these birds leave at ice up and the migrators move thru and stage up on Lake Michigan/Munuscung areas. After Nov 20 95% of the birds I see are mergs. I still think the dates I offered in my previous post is the best compromise, although in a perfect world the west/central UP would be in a seperate zone than the eastern UP/Lake Michigan but Ive beaten that horse in previous posts.


----------



## just ducky

TNL said:


> Everyone seems to want a season that best fits how and where they hunt individually, not keeping the big picture in mind. Comprimise would be the key word here.
> 
> 
> Does any science come into play or just the experinces that you have had during "X" amount of seasons? No one has been able to hunt in all areas of Michigan, all the time.
> 
> 
> A super majority is actually a super minority, allowing veto power to a priviledged few. True democratic (small d) process comes with a simple majority. It's silly to have a few decide against a majority - that concept should be aborted even if it means there will be constant change.
> 
> 
> Many, if not most, duck hunters never come to this site, much less post. So it's hard to draw any conclusions from such a limited sample.
> 
> 
> If science has yet to figure how and excatly when migrations and freeze out will occur each year, then duck hunters sure as hell aren't going to do any better.
> 
> 
> How come so little talk about goose seasons?
> My _personal_ opinion is that Ferris SH had a pretty good proposal. Front load the split, 3 openers (more revenue ), and keep it simple. There will be nuances here and there across our great State, but it seems like a good jumpimg off point.
> 
> JMO - carry on.


I have pretty much nothing to add to that TNL...couldn't have said it much better. Especially the first point, which I've said several times...KEY WORDS = big picture view, and "compromise" means no one should get everything they want, and likewise no one should get nothing


----------



## bias

TSS Caddis said:


> Even then how can a someone that does not hunt Zone 1 propose a zone 1 start date unless they are picking their best Zone 3 start date and backing up from there? That does the Zone 1 guy a disservice by trying to force an opening date on him that he may or may not want solely based on when it lines zone 3 the opener up.
> 
> I am James Bias, the EUP CWAC rep.
> 
> I take a lot of flack from some other members about my proposals for season dates, but they represent what the vast majority of hunters in my area voice as their preference. Frankly, I care very little about what a saginaw bay of LSC hunter thinks the UP season dates should be (unless they want to come north and spend money).
> 
> I have followed these threads with interest, and have a few things to add:
> 
> *Consistency:* If you want consistency, try this on for size: More times than not in the last 10-15 years, the UP opener is set on the Saturday closest to Oct. 1. Makes sense to me, and I like the idea of keeping it. This idea that we have traditionally started the last Saturday in September is a fallacy. If you want consistency its easy . . .zone 1, saturday closest to Oct. 1. Problem solved, and most of the eastern up hunters I know will stop complaining about people from downstate sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.
> 
> *Enforcement*: The argument that we can't have things too complicated because it makes enforcement too difficult is a load of BS as well. Check out the bear hunting regulations. Check out the regulations for various trout streams. Check out the rest of the duck hunting regulations. Give me a break. Even us yoopers are smart enough to figure this one out.
> 
> *The "lull"*: The DNR reminds me of Bahgdad Bob in the last days of Saddam. "There is no lull. Duck number after the opener are at an all time high, daily limits are imminent." Please . . . we all know better.
> 
> *DNR Surveys:* every few years the DNR presents studies of what hunters want for opening dates. Doesn't say where the hunters are from, where they hunt, or how much they really care when it is. On top of that, I had the distinct pleasure of pointing out that their information didn't indicate a preference for an early September opener as they claimed, but actually indicated that a majority of hunters (whether from the UP or not) wanted an opener later in the year.
> 
> *EUP Hunters:* Regardless of the DNR surveys, regardless of license sales or what the current officers or CWAC want, (and yes John, I mean you) the vast majority (and I mean VAST majority) of duck hunters I talk to at the post office, at court, at the bar, at little league games, on facebook, on the internet, on the lake fishing--from Drummond Island, to Sault Ste. Marie to St. Ignace to Grand Marais . . .they want duck hunting later in the season. No matter how any group tries to twist the numbers, spin the surveys, or cater to the DNR's mantra of "more license revenue" this is the bottom line for me. These are my stakeholders.
> 
> *Finally*, (and this is my last rant on this thread) I seem to recall that as a group, CWAC voted to hold the August meeting at the RAM center. Not Bay City, not at the waterfowl festival, but at the centrally located DNR building. Who decided they had the unilateral authority to change that majority decision?
> 
> There were several posts about the apparent futility of having CWAC at all. Whoever decided to change this meeting date, you've just made CWAC's insignificance as a group painfully apparent.


----------



## twoteal

dislike then zone 3 dates


----------



## KLR

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> exactly why i would lobby for SRSGA to bump to zone 2 and run 60 day concurrently. Start october 8th.....straight thru. no splits.
> 
> i'm curious what current zone 2 thinks of about october 8th opener and straight 60.


2 thumbs. All the way up. As far as I can reach.


----------



## DEDGOOSE

KLR said:


> 2 thumbs. All the way up. As far as I can reach.


Yup I dig it too.. 8-10 less days of brown ducks


----------



## LoBrass

bias said:


> TSS Caddis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even then how can a someone that does not hunt Zone 1 propose a zone 1 start date unless they are picking their best Zone 3 start date and backing up from there? That does the Zone 1 guy a disservice by trying to force an opening date on him that he may or may not want solely based on when it lines zone 3 the opener up.
> 
> I am James Bias, the EUP CWAC rep.
> 
> I take a lot of flack from some other members about my proposals for season dates, but they represent what the vast majority of hunters in my area voice as their preference. Frankly, I care very little about what a saginaw bay of LSC hunter thinks the UP season dates should be (unless they want to come north and spend money).
> 
> I have followed these threads with interest, and have a few things to add:
> 
> *Consistency:* If you want consistency, try this on for size: More times than not in the last 10-15 years, the UP opener is set on the Saturday closest to Oct. 1. Makes sense to me, and I like the idea of keeping it. This idea that we have traditionally started the last Saturday in September is a fallacy. If you want consistency its easy . . .zone 1, saturday closest to Oct. 1. Problem solved, and most of the eastern up hunters I know will stop complaining about people from downstate sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.
> 
> *Enforcement*: The argument that we can't have things too complicated because it makes enforcement too difficult is a load of BS as well. Check out the bear hunting regulations. Check out the regulations for various trout streams. Check out the rest of the duck hunting regulations. Give me a break. Even us yoopers are smart enough to figure this one out.
> 
> *The "lull"*: The DNR reminds me of Bahgdad Bob in the last days of Saddam. "There is no lull. Duck number after the opener are at an all time high, daily limits are imminent." Please . . . we all know better.
> 
> *DNR Surveys:* every few years the DNR presents studies of what hunters want for opening dates. Doesn't say where the hunters are from, where they hunt, or how much they really care when it is. On top of that, I had the distinct pleasure of pointing out that their information didn't indicate a preference for an early September opener as they claimed, but actually indicated that a majority of hunters (whether from the UP or not) wanted an opener later in the year.
> 
> *EUP Hunters:* Regardless of the DNR surveys, regardless of license sales or *what the current officers or CWAC want, (and yes John, I mean you)* the vast majority (and I mean VAST majority) of duck hunters I talk to at the post office, at court, at the bar, at little league games, on facebook, on the internet, on the lake fishing--from Drummond Island, to Sault Ste. Marie to St. Ignace to Grand Marais . . .they want duck hunting later in the season. No matter how any group tries to twist the numbers, spin the surveys, or cater to the DNR's mantra of "more license revenue" this is the bottom line for me. These are my stakeholders.
> 
> *Finally*, (and this is my last rant on this thread) I seem to recall that as a group, CWAC voted to hold the August meeting at the RAM center. Not Bay City, not at the waterfowl festival, but at the centrally located DNR building. Who decided they had the unilateral authority to change that majority decision?
> 
> *There were several posts about the apparent futility of having CWAC at all. Whoever decided to change this meeting location, you've just made CWAC's insignificance as a group painfully apparent.*QUOTE]
> 
> James,
> 
> GREAT to hear from you.
> 
> My initial suggestion for dates on this thread represented individuals who requested an "earlier is better" season. _They_ brought to my attention the loss of birds prior to opening last season and loss of opportunity later in the season due to freeze up. Each a VERY valid argument for opening the season earlier. Some of those individuals have posted on this thread. My original proposal is a reflection of that and I have the names of those individuals. One of them lives on Lake Michigan and watches the birds every single day. The UP is a varied land from one end to the other, I know. I have and do spend time and money there nearly every year (as you well know). There is no question that some compromising will be necessary to finalize CWAC's recommendations. BTW, what _I want_ is for this to be completely democratic, fair and representative of the_ entire_ zone. If the EUP wants later dates or dates similar to Zone 2 (Lord, I can't believe I'm going to type this) perhaps that area should be in zone 2. That has been proposed before and last season, date wise, that's what happened. I just can't see that ever getting by the "powers that be" or that it really should.
> 
> I have to agree completely with you on the location of the meeting. An "executive decision" to change the meeting location was out of line. I had NO say, was not consulted nor asked, merely informed after the decision. Insignificant, I would hope not. The only promise I can make is that I will try to never again let OUR meeting get railroaded.
> 
> Talk to you soon.
Click to expand...


----------



## Coldwater Charters

I see some folks are wanting a split during the regular duck season. I am sure you know that when those ducks start diving their goose spreads on on the late goose season opener in Jan. they are going to be singing another tune. Be careful what you ask for.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

Coldwater Charters said:


> I see some folks are wanting a split during the regular duck season. I am sure you know that when those ducks start diving their goose spreads on on the late goose season opener in Jan. they are going to be singing another tune. Be careful what you ask for.


last january 1st....i was riding down the saginaw river on 18" of ice on my way to hooters...then to the bay about 3 miles out to see my buddy walleye fishing.

i know this is the problem with z3.....but my last worry is a duck wandering into my late season goose spread....birds don't exist in northern z3 all to often in january. It does happen...but more often than not...we are locked tight.


----------



## D-Fresh

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> birds don't exist in northern z3 all to often in january. It does happen...but more often than not...we are locked tight.


Birds do exist in northern zone 3 every year. You just have to get creative and bust your balls to get to them. I hunt the northern edge of zone 3, and I look forward to the Jan split every year. Some of the hardest work, but also by far the best 2 day shoot of the year more times than not. I know I am in the overwhelming minority on this one, but I would be one of a few that would be upset if the zones/dates changed so that we lost the Jan split where we hunt.

I also think I'm in the minority in that I like the seasons/zones just as they were last year. Whenever the dates end up being, I'll make the best of it and enjoy every single second in the field/on the water.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

D-Fresh said:


> You just have to get creative and bust your balls to get to them.



thanks for the tip, i will take note of that and get bigger balls...that should make those 2 days in january much better.

actually i could have hunted the split last year on a nice piece of open moving water. it had 6 ducks on it. i coulda kicked them off of it and shot my limit when they came back. I woulda risked shooting a few snowmobilers in the process.


----------



## D-Fresh

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> thanks for the tip, i will take note of that and get bigger balls...that should make those 2 days in january much better.


I wasn't questioning your manhood, or giving tips really. I was just stating that the late split usually means pushing a heavy ***** boat across the ice, tons of cussing and asking myself "why in the hell am I doing this?" over and over....but, it in the end, it is worth it most of the time. Like I said, I'm in the minority on this one, and it won't be the end of the world if it goes bye bye.

I try to stay out of these threads, but i caved. Too many opinions, and they'll never make everyone happy. In the end, we can't predict the weather for tomorrow, let alone months in advance, so it will always be a guessing game as far as having optimal season dates.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

D-Fresh said:


> I wasn't questioning your manhood, or giving tips really. I was just stating that the late split usually means pushing a heavy ***** boat across the ice, tons of cussing and asking myself "why in the hell am I doing this?" over and over....but, it in the end, it is worth it most of the time. Like I said, I'm in the minority on this one, and it won't be the end of the world if it goes bye bye.
> 
> I try to stay out of these threads, but i caved. Too many opinions, and they'll never make everyone happy. In the end, we can't predict the weather for tomorrow, let alone months in advance, so it will always be a guessing game as far as having optimal season dates.


just bustin your balls D-Fresh. lol. 

on a side note, i was serious when i said i coulda shot 6. they sat in the open water by the gates last year and we kicked them up everytime we went by them. eventually they got numb to it and just swam to the side away from the sleds and never left there until late january when it finally froze all the way over. die hard birds they were.


----------



## goosemanrdk

bias said:


> TSS Caddis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even then how can a someone that does not hunt Zone 1 propose a zone 1 start date unless they are picking their best Zone 3 start date and backing up from there? That does the Zone 1 guy a disservice by trying to force an opening date on him that he may or may not want solely based on when it lines zone 3 the opener up.
> 
> I am James Bias, the EUP CWAC rep.
> 
> I take a lot of flack from some other members about my proposals for season dates, but they represent what the vast majority of hunters in my area voice as their preference. Frankly, I care very little about what a saginaw bay of LSC hunter thinks the UP season dates should be _(unless they want to come north and spend money)._
> *That is exactly why guys from down south feel the UP should open the last Saturday in September, so they can some up and spend money and hunt the opener without having to choose between hunting the UP opener and theirs down here. If you guys want to come hunt our opener, you don't have to choose to skip your opener cause it has come and gone. Why should southern guys have to make that choice? We are one state.*I have followed these threads with interest, and have a few things to add:
> 
> *Consistency:* If you want consistency, try this on for size: More times than not in the last 10-15 years, the UP opener is set on the Saturday closest to Oct. 1. Makes sense to me, and I like the idea of keeping it. This idea that we have traditionally started the last Saturday in September is a fallacy. If you want consistency its easy . . .zone 1, saturday closest to Oct. 1. Problem solved, and most of the eastern up hunters I know will stop complaining about people from downstate sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.
> 
> *Well, If I am not mistaken it has only been in the last few years(less than 10) that the feds have relaxed things to allow the opener to occur in September. So, applying 10-15 year track record to current regs is rediculous!!!*
> *Enforcement*: The argument that we can't have things too complicated because it makes enforcement too difficult is a load of BS as well. Check out the bear hunting regulations. Check out the regulations for various trout streams. Check out the rest of the duck hunting regulations. Give me a break. Even us yoopers are smart enough to figure this one out.
> 
> *I agree with you here*
> 
> *The "lull"*: The DNR reminds me of Bahgdad Bob in the last days of Saddam. "There is no lull. Duck number after the opener are at an all time high, daily limits are imminent." Please . . . we all know better.
> 
> *I agree with you here, as well*
> 
> *DNR Surveys:* every few years the DNR presents studies of what hunters want for opening dates. Doesn't say where the hunters are from, where they hunt, or how much they really care when it is. On top of that, I had the distinct pleasure of pointing out that their information didn't indicate a preference for an early September opener as they claimed, but actually indicated that a majority of hunters (whether from the UP or not) wanted an opener later in the year.
> 
> *Well, your little "pointing" out was a gross twist of how the information of a survey works. Case in point, that survey is very similar to how an election works, so lets have an election with 5 candidates.
> Candidate A - gets 36% of the vote
> Candidate B - gets 21%
> Candidate C - gets 20%
> Candidate D - gets 15%
> Candidate E - gets 8%
> So, by your spin, even though Candiate A is the winner, he should not be the winner because 64% didn't want him. Is that how this works? Not last time I checked.*
> 
> *EUP Hunters:* Regardless of the DNR surveys, regardless of license sales or what the current officers or CWAC want, (and yes John, I mean you) the vast majority (and I mean VAST majority) of duck hunters I talk to at the post office, at court, at the bar, at little league games, on facebook, on the internet, on the lake fishing--from Drummond Island, to Sault Ste. Marie to St. Ignace to Grand Marais . . .they want duck hunting later in the season. No matter how any group tries to twist the numbers, spin the surveys, or cater to the DNR's mantra of "more license revenue" this is the bottom line for me. These are my stakeholders.
> 
> *Hey, I get that, but the rest of us have stakeholders(that have just as much right, as you, to hunt the UP) that would like things earlier so they can take advantage of 3 openers. Otherwise, what is the point of having 3 zones(I heard this argument a lot from my stakeholders). So. you have the ability of a split, so lets talk about it and use it. Get the Western UP guys the earlier time they would like, get the below the bridge guys that ability to hunt a third opener, and get the Eastern UP guys the later time they want. That is unless you don't want us trolls coming up and hunting your ducks(by they way you guys eluded to this BIG TIME at last falls CWAC meeting)*
> 
> *Finally*, (and this is my last rant on this thread) I seem to recall that as a group, CWAC voted to hold the August meeting at the RAM center. Not Bay City, not at the waterfowl festival, but at the centrally located DNR building. Who decided they had the unilateral authority to change that majority decision?
> 
> There were several posts about the apparent futility of having CWAC at all. Whoever decided to change this meeting date, you've just made CWAC's insignificance as a group painfully apparent.
> 
> 
> 
> And as far as the meeting, I agree with you and John about this being frustrating. However, this should be a STARK REMINDER to everyone that the DNR is in charge and has final say. Just as I have said previously(and given a lot of flack for) we can push for change, but if it is TOO MUCH, the DNR and Waterfowl workgroup will overide us in a heart beat!!!!!!
> 
> So, I will tell it how it is again(please remember I have been to meetings and spoken to waterfowl workgroup Biologists, so DON'T SHOOT THE MESENGER!!!!
> 1- FS hunter's proposal for Z3, will NEVER happen, as the DNR care A LOT about the tennis shoe hunter and the "bread and butter ducks"
> 2- Any dates beyond December 11 for Z3, will NEVER happen, as the DNR will NOT risk going that late into freeze-up.
> 
> For those that say, what is the point of having CWAC, well if not for CWAC, LAST YEAR Z3 would have opened on the first Saturday in October and ran for 58 days and then had the 2 day January hunt.(Staright from the mouth of a Biologist on the waterfowl workgroup, this was the season they favored!!)
Click to expand...


----------



## just ducky

goosemanrdk said:


> ...For those that say, what is the point of having CWAC, well if not for CWAC, LAST YEAR Z3 would have opened on the first Saturday in October and ran for 58 days and then had the 2 day January hunt.(Staright from the mouth of a Biologist on the waterfowl workgroup, this was the season they favored!!)


One thing we haven't talked about is the fact that the DNR could, and has in the past, completely ignored the CWAC's recommendations. This hasn't been the case recently, and a lot of that was due to a "come to Jesus" meeting that former Director Becky Humphries had with her staff over respecting, AND USING, the CWAC's opinions. Becky is a true waterfowler to the bone, and she showed great leadership by making that move. Those who were around a few years ago will recall it. Some DNR staff chose to leave state government because of that decision (without mentioning names :evilsmile), and we've been better for it. It will be interesting to see if Director Stokes takes as active of a role as the former Director did in how this process plays out...I'm guessing not.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

just ducky said:


> One thing we haven't talked about is the fact that the DNR could, and has in the past, completely ignored the CWAC's recommendations. This hasn't been the case recently, and a lot of that was due to a "come to Jesus" meeting that former Director Becky Humphries had with her staff over respecting, AND USING, the CWAC's opinions. Becky is a true waterfowler to the bone, and she showed great leadership by making that move. Those who were around a few years ago will recall it. Some DNR staff chose to leave state government because of that decision (without mentioning names :evilsmile), and we've been better for it. It will be interesting to see if Director Stokes takes as active of a role as the former Director did in how this process plays out...I'm guessing not.


has this new guy ever seen CWAC in action?


----------



## just ducky

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> has this new guy ever seen CWAC in action?


Don't know. He has a long history with DNR, but mostly Parks and Rec and policy positions. He's been good so far at attending lots of functions. I know the MUCC groups that I sit on for MDHA have had him come and talk. Wouldn't be a bad idea for sitting CWAC members to request he attend at least a portion of the meeting?


----------



## field-n-feathers

Coldwater Charters said:


> I see some folks are wanting a split during the regular duck season. I am sure you know that when those ducks start diving their goose spreads on on the late goose season opener in Jan. they are going to be singing another tune. Be careful what you ask for.


I agree with you on this one. If we are going to debate the season dates in Zone 3 to a point where all we do is take the two January days and put them on the end of our current Zone 3 dates.......forget it. If we can have a split during the historic October "lull" to give us 10-14 days extra in December....I would support that.

As far as the two January days not being productive for everyone involved......I guess it just depends on your hunting style. If all you do is hunt the local marsh or public/private potholes (not that it's bad), those two days are probably not going to be the best for you. 

One of my best friends lives not too far away from St. Charles.....He and others have no problems limiting out each and every January split hunt on the East side of the state. I make the trip over there a few times a year and hunt but usually have my own "hot" fields at that time of year. 

Based upon a probably insignificant poll on this site a while back, the field hunters such as myself seem to be in a minority. However, I would be willing to bet that many of us that hunt fields primarily would, by a large majority percentage, agree that we want a later season. With that said....outside of a few pastures and wheat fields, there are not a ton of grain fields ready to hunt until crops start coming down late October through mid November...some years it's even later than that. 

So...we field hunters can sit and complain that there are no birds to hunt, or we can switch our tactics a bit and hunt some water for a while until our "prime" areas are ready to hunt.......which is what many of us do. This still doesn't change the fact that our "preference" would be to hunt in the style of our choice and go later into the year. The whole point is generally to point out that many of us aren't trying to be so one sided in our season arguments. I'm not going to hunt the same field over, and over, and over if the birds aren't there......I'm going to move somewhere else where they are.

I know....long post. :help:


----------



## PhilBernardi

bump


:lol: :evilsmile


----------



## FreeportsFinest

Get rid of Hunting Hours..........they are far to vague


----------



## just ducky

FreeportsFinest said:


> Get rid of Hunting Hours..........they are far to vague


for migratory birds, which are federally regulated? Now we're REALLY dreaming!


----------



## lewy149

FreeportsFinest said:


> Get rid of Hunting Hours..........they are far to vague[/QUOTE
> 
> Vague?? 30 min before sunrise to sunset with a table telling you when???


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

lewy149 said:


> FreeportsFinest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get rid of Hunting Hours..........they are far to vague[/QUOTE
> 
> Vague?? 30 min plus or minus sunrise with a table telling you when???
> 
> 
> 
> pretty big catch...master angler status.
Click to expand...


----------



## FreeportsFinest

The times on the table don't always correspond with the amount of daylight. I find it very hard to pack up when birds start flying and you can see 1/4 mile in any direction.


----------



## lewy149

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> lewy149 said:
> 
> 
> 
> pretty big catch...master angler status.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry kid wording wasn't perfect fixed it, never really gotta that hung up on the wording. Just looked at the chart added the minutes and went from there. Kinda always been fun having my dad call me on the east side killing ducks and we r sitting in the dark in the west side.
> 
> Its about enough light for proper identification, and letting those birds roast in somewhat peace. You can see a quarter mile but that extra hen you left in the cause you miss id in the dark will be nice
Click to expand...


----------



## Shupac

FreeportsFinest said:


> The times on the table don't always correspond with the amount of daylight. I find it very hard to pack up when birds start flying and you can see 1/4 mile in any direction.


Just finished a book about waterfowling in Scotland. No set shooting hours--and yes, people hunt by moonlight. Season is September 1st through Feb. 20th, no bag limit on most species (though there is a strong informal ethic of limiting one's take), the whole coast and as well as coastal marshes open to public hunting. Sounds like a sweet deal...not that most of that would work here.


----------



## just ducky

Shupac said:


> Just finished a book about waterfowling in Scotland. No set shooting hours--and yes, people hunt by moonlight. Season is September 1st through Feb. 20th, no bag limit on most species (though there is a strong informal ethic of limiting one's take), the whole coast and as well as coastal marshes open to public hunting. Sounds like a sweet deal...not that most of that would work here.


Go over to Walpole Island on Lake St. Clair and hunt with the "native americans" there. Better pack a dinner, because they hunt well into the night, and on moonlit nights, I'm not sure they stop at all? :yikes: If you've ever hunted Harsen's Island, you'll hear the banging across the creek continuing on and on as your packing up your gear at closing time. We hunted twice with them in the early 90's, and it got so dark they were shooting at shadows. If they did connect, you'd hear the bird hit the water, but they had no dog, so finding them was almost impossible. There were birds laying all over the marsh. Each time this happened we nearly came to fighting the so-called "guide" to take us home. Really disgusting to watch IMO.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

shooting always finished 30 min early...rule was put in place to give birds a rest believe it or not.

i once hunted with some cajun's down in LA....they use their muzzle flashes to light up the birds so the rest can shoot.


----------



## FreeportsFinest

Its about enough light for proper identification, and letting those birds roast in somewhat peace. You can see a quarter mile but that extra hen you left in the cause you miss id in the dark will be nice[/quote]

Doesn't apply to hunting geese now does it.........or do Canadian Geese have a visible stripe somewhere displaying their age and sex; and the way I see it, the goose population is growing to "nuisance" levels yet we can only take 2 a day.

Earlier this year a professor told me how much the DNR spends on regulating animal populations via neutering and relocation. She then continued to speak how much "hunters" cost the Michigan Tax payer. If the above information is true (according to the prof it is), wouldn't the Hunter be the perfect solution
1: We pay for a tag (Generates Michigan Revenue)
2: We control the species (Thus not costing tax dollars)
3: We spend money within the economy 

In my mind the DNR could do a better job using their resources (hunters), which in turn will save Michigan money and maybe a few of them would get their jobs back:lol:


----------



## lewy149

FreeportsFinest said:


> lewy149 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't apply to hunting geese now does it.........or do Canadian Geese have a visible stripe somewhere displaying their age and sex; and the way I see it, the goose population is growing to "nuisance" levels yet we can only take 2 a day.
> 
> Really????
> Nice try to be a smart *****, but that was covered up by incompetence. 1. You skipped the resting part which both shikid and I brought up. 2. You hunt ducks right along with geese, I swear officer I was shooting geese and those dead ducks have been there for hours. 3. Be happy you can even hunt them in the evening, I believe in nodak you can't hunt geese in the evening but like Wed and maybe another day. You can't enter the ottowa Marsh unit in the evening here in mi, cause they let the birds rest. 4. You don't understand what vague means. vague /v&#257;g/ Adjective 1. Of uncertain, indefinite, or unc meaning: "patients with vague sy 2. Thinking or communicating in a imprecise way. Pretty cut and dry when they give you an exact time to the min to quit. That way when all the birds finally come back from being banged on all morning they got a safe place to roast. Or would you rather drive all of our birds away the first week? 5. Nuisance level and 2 birds limit, its a 2 bird limit in Oct cause you are also shooting migratory birds also not just locals. So many people are under the misunderstanding that the migration has to have freeze up temps up north. Guess what I got fields that the same time every year just fills up with birds cause they are migrating through. How do I know they r migrating, cause u can watch the local birds flare .75 miles away whole the other just commit suicide into the decoys. As far as nuisance goes, maybe inside the city limits but hey lets treat just like deer. Slaughter em so in about 5 to 10 years everyone can stand around and go gee the hunting sure does suck. I beloved numbers are up in some areas, but in others they are way down. We r loosing habitat at an unbelievable rate. Like. 75 percent if our old wood ducks holes are gone around here. Places my dad and his buddies and their parent had hunted for the last 50 Years are bone dry. 6. Am I the only person who can manage to hunt all I want and have fun successful hunts with our seasons every year and with our current regulations?
Click to expand...


----------



## wavie

FreeportsFinest said:


> lewy149 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't apply to hunting geese now does it.........or do Canadian Geese have a visible stripe somewhere displaying their age and sex; and the way I see it, the goose population is growing to "nuisance" levels yet we can only take 2 a day.
> 
> Earlier this year a professor told me how much the DNR spends on regulating animal populations via neutering and relocation. She then continued to speak how much "hunters" cost the Michigan Tax payer. If the above information is true (according to the prof it is), wouldn't the Hunter be the perfect solution
> 1: We pay for a tag (Generates Michigan Revenue)
> 2: We control the species (Thus not costing tax dollars)
> 3: We spend money within the economy
> 
> In my mind the DNR could do a better job using their resources (hunters), which in turn will save Michigan money and maybe a few of them would get their jobs back:lol:
> 
> 
> 
> C'mon Einstein, as a student as it appears from your above quote, you know he's not talking about geese but rather ducks.
> 
> As for taking 2 geese per day regarding nuisance geese, you are missing an entire season, check out the regs. 2/d per regular season is there for a reason, lots of research out there on why, or just check the search function on here.
> 
> If your prof has any credability she would have provided you with numbers, post them! I sure hope you asked her to back up her "facts", hell i would have if i had paid for that class.
> 
> Bitch at the Feds, not the DNR, which is unfortunately is the usual whipping boy.
> 
> Oh and its* "Canada geese"*
> 
> If your entire post was intended sarcasim and i missed it well then i do apoligize in advance.
Click to expand...


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

FreeportsFinest said:


> Doesn't apply to hunting geese now does it.........or do Canadian Geese have a visible stripe somewhere displaying their age and sex; and the way I see it, the goose population is growing to "nuisance" levels yet we can only take 2 a day.
> 
> Earlier this year a professor told me how much the DNR spends on regulating animal populations via neutering and relocation. She then continued to speak how much "hunters" cost the Michigan Tax payer. If the above information is true (according to the prof it is), wouldn't the Hunter be the perfect solution
> 1: We pay for a tag (Generates Michigan Revenue)
> 2: We control the species (Thus not costing tax dollars)
> 3: We spend money within the economy
> 
> In my mind the DNR could do a better job using their resources (hunters), which in turn will save Michigan money and maybe a few of them would get their jobs back:lol:


just for the record, i didn't post that. not sure i my name got highlighted with your quote but edit and fix that please.


----------



## lewy149

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> shooting always finished 30 min early...rule was put in place to give birds a rest believe it or not.
> 
> i once hunted with some cajun's down in LA....they use their muzzle flashes to light up the birds so the rest can shoot.



That's is your post


The same point I had about not shooting. Ducks till dark.


----------



## FreeportsFinest

OHH YES! Just what I was looking for, a heated response.

What I meant by vague was the difference in sunset around the state and from night to night. At one point your time could actually be "30 min" before/after sunrise/set whereas another time you are forced to pack up while the sun is still visible. What i'm saying is the time on the card is clear to read but not consistent with the sun....thus the timing is vague.

Plus I mainly hunt the same fields over and over for CANADIAN GEESE (AND they ARE called also called Canadian Geese........) which we privatly own and hunt. The point I'm trying to make is that the birds can still find a place to roost while the sun is still up and we are forced to leave the field.

Sorry Shiwanassee kid....not intended


----------



## FreeportsFinest

Also after debating with the narrow minded liberal professor, I couldn't stand to be in her presence any longer. Meaning the source of her facts......unknown


----------



## lewy149

FreeportsFinest said:


> OHH YES! Just what I was looking for, a heated response.
> 
> What I meant by vague was the difference in sunset around the state and from night to night. At one point your time could actually be "30 min" before/after sunrise/set whereas another time you are forced to pack up while the sun is still visible. What i'm saying is the time on the card is clear to read but not consistent with the sun....thus the timing is vague.
> 
> Plus I mainly hunt the same fields over and over for CANADIAN GEESE (AND they ARE called also called Canadian Geese........) which we privatly own and hunt. The point I'm trying to make is that the birds can still find a place to roost while the sun is still up and we are forced to leave the field.
> 
> Sorry Shiwanassee kid....not intended


Its the only way to get people off the water in a consistent enforceable time to somewhat allow the birds some quiet when coming back to water. Shooting geese in a field towards dark has no bearing on their roast, but you do that then they head for the roast right a dark and another guys blows em out. Wont take real long for them to leave. Yes is it frustrating when your at a draw to see the ducks pour out of the fuge to hit tgr corn 3 min after shooting time. Yep, tough the deserve a break from the sky busters.


----------



## LoBrass

FreeportsFinest said:


> Plus I mainly hunt the same fields over and over for CANADIAN GEESE (AND they ARE called also called Canadian Geese........)


No, they are not. At least not in the Queens English. 

They are Canada geese. 

Let's get this thread back on track.

Over the next day or so I will propose a few dates for each zone's duck season. I would be interested in hearing some constructive feedback. Please don't flame over this as etched in granite. *Constructive feedback only.*

*Starting with Zone 1:*

*Open Sept. 24 and close Sept. 25*

*Open Oct. 1 and close Nov. 27*


----------



## wavie

FreeportsFinest said:


> lus I mainly hunt the same fields over and over for CANADIAN GEESE (AND they ARE called also called Canadian Geese........


:help:


----------



## FreeportsFinest

Canada/Canadian depends on the context


----------



## goosemanrdk

FreeportsFinest said:


> Canada/Canadian depends on the context


Well, the next time you are in Canada, tell locals you are out and about looking to kill a few Canadians. Bet we will see you on a future episode of locked up abroad!!!!!:SHOCKED:

I's stick to calling them CANADA GEESE!!!!!!


----------



## just ducky

Shooting times are not something we can change. Talk to the USFW officials. Move along folks.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....


----------



## goosemanrdk

LoBrass said:


> Over the next day or so I will propose a few dates for each zone's duck season. I would be interested in hearing some constructive feedback. Please don't flame over this as etched in granite. *Constructive feedback only.*
> 
> *Starting with Zone 1:*
> 
> *Open Sept. 24 and close Sept. 25*
> 
> *Open Oct. 1 and close Nov. 27*


Getting back to JD's regularly scheduled programming;

Assuming that Zone 2 and Zone 3 open later and each on seperate Days. I could go with that. However, I would like to see the closure be at a time that another zone would be open, so those that like to travel would have the ability to zone hop and have hunting available to them, even if it is weekdays that are closed. More opprotunity this way. Ie:
Zone 1 Sep 24-Oct 2, Oct 8-Nov 27
Zone 2 Oct 1-Oct 9, Oct 15-Dec 4
But again that is me, but I could definiately support yours.


----------



## anon2192012

LoBrass said:


> No, they are not. At least not in the Queens English.
> 
> They are Canada geese.
> 
> Let's get this thread back on track.
> 
> Over the next day or so I will propose a few dates for each zone's duck season. I would be interested in hearing some constructive feedback. Please don't flame over this as etched in granite. *Constructive feedback only.*
> 
> *Starting with Zone 1:*
> 
> *Open Sept. 24 and close Sept. 25*
> 
> *Open Oct. 1 and close Nov. 27*


 
I like this, especially if the other zones are structered similarly.


----------



## Addicted2Quack

Huntermax-4 said:


> I like this, especially if the other zones are structered similarly.


----------



## LoBrass

LoBrass said:


> Three separate openers, we utilize a split in every zone, *we hunt as much of October as possible (all of Oct. in the northern zones*), Thanksgiving weekend is open across the state, add-maximize participation
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John


Bringing this up as I feel we _really_ need to be conscious of these points. Hunting as many days in October is VERY important from a participation stand point.

Last year the Zone 2 split was at the tail end of the season to take the last 2 days (a Monday and Tuesday) and give the area an extra weekend. Truthfully, I like that. Whereas freeze-up is a serious issue in the UP (therefore an early split) the northern lower is (perhaps) less likely to experience significant freeze-up. If they _do_ freeze-they have lost the most minimal number of days.

*So, Zone 2:*

*Open Oct. 1 close Nov. 27*

*Open Dec. 3 close Dec. 4*

Oh, not looking for any new proposal options-just feedback on these proposals.

(BTW, I would *seriously* challenge _anyone_ who believes they think about this more than myself, just sayin'.:16suspect)


----------



## KLR

LoBrass said:


> * Zone 2:*
> 
> *Open Oct. 1 close Nov. 27*
> 
> *Open Dec. 3 close Dec. 4*


About as good as it's going to get.


----------



## duckbuster2

No splits straight 60 days.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

duckbuster2 said:


> No splits straight 60 days.


i see your from sebawaing...you state no splits but yet don't say why? why not a split and are you talking z2 or z3 (being you reside in z3) not sure what your stating. no splits in any zone??


----------



## duckbuster2

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i see your from sebawaing...you state no splits but yet don't say why? why not a split and are you talking z2 or z3 (being you reside in z3) not sure what your stating. no splits in any zone??


No splits in any zones with 60 day seasons not needed.


----------



## smiley1544

duckbuster2 said:


> No splits in any zones with 60 day seasons not needed.


 With the above proposals we loose 5 week days when most hunters are at work and gain an extra weekend. So maybe its not needed but, I think it's a benefit to most hunters. 


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

smiley1544 said:


> With the above proposals we loose 5 week days when most hunters are at work and gain an extra weekend. So maybe its not needed but, I think it's a benefit to most hunters.
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


yeah i agree, i'm trying to find a flaw with the suggestion above. that split looks pretty good for z2.


----------



## LoBrass

FYI, Zone 1 goose opens Sept. 16th and runs 45 straight days. Because they fear losing birds they exercised no split. This was voted on at the March meeting as was the youth hunt (Sept. 17-18).

Zones 2 and 3 may have 45 days and may exercise at least 1 split. I've been unable to positively identify within the framework if we have other split options (possibly more than one) on dark geese. We have some work to do with goose hunting dates.

I will make some calls tomorrow regarding possible splits during the regular goose season.

Generally, my feeling is to open goose seasons with duck seasons to maximize opportunity. Personally, I'm torn with this. Granted, I know that surveys have shown a very strong overlap preference but there is value in "days afield" and the very best way to increase that number is to have set alone goose and duck seasons-at least some days. Most often from this hunters view, I hunt ducks OR geese. 

This thread is just getting warmed up:coolgleam.


----------



## lewy149

I agree on splitting em up. Bob and were just talking about how after early goose the goose decoy will most likeley just go back in the garage. Go put together a couple good puddler hunts then a non stop diver beat down. I can't see burning a day and all that work for 2 geese when I can do way less and pound 6 divers. But if it was the only thing open id go.


----------



## Blacklab77

Here is a question I have for splitting them up, and maybe we need a poll. How many guys hunt just geese, or just ducks.

How many of those just one or the other type hunters, hunt with guys that do both. An are more prone to take a goose/duck even though they don't chase them normally.

Example: I hunt with about 6 regular guys. 2 don't geese hunt. But they are prone to shoot one now and then when we have overlap days if they are hunting with us. 

Guess my question is by splitting them up how does that effect hunter participation, number of days afield (people seem to think by splitting them you get more, Me I'm on the fence maybe we do, maybe we don't), and number of total birds taken.


----------



## Mike L

Start and run the goose season with the duck opener. Run the goose season XX number of days then shut it down for a week or so then re-open. A
goose split benefits everyone IMO. It makes geese that have been in the area less leary and there's always the possibility of new geese arriving.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

Blacklab77 said:


> Here is a question I have for splitting them up, and maybe we need a poll. How many guys hunt just geese, or just ducks.
> 
> How many of those just one or the other type hunters, hunt with guys that do both. An are more prone to take a goose/duck even though they don't chase them normally.
> 
> Example: I hunt with about 6 regular guys. 2 don't geese hunt. But they are prone to shoot one now and then when we have overlap days if they are hunting with us.
> 
> Guess my question is by splitting them up how does that effect hunter participation, number of days afield (people seem to think by splitting them you get more, Me I'm on the fence maybe we do, maybe we don't), and number of total birds taken.


i'm one of those as well. i wont specifically goose hunt unless its early season. otherwise, i want to tag geese while i'm out duck hunting. If i'm duck hunting and geese work me, i want to shoot them.


----------



## duckbuster2

I like the goose season to be the same as the duck season.


----------



## DEDGOOSE

TSS Caddis said:


> That's prime diver killing time.
> 
> Go after the early October sacred cow. How many guys really take the whole first week off to hunt? Losing the 5 week days after opening weekend doesn't seem like it should be such a sticking point.


Thats prime wood duck and brown mallard killing time


----------



## TSS Caddis

goosemanrdk said:


> Going out on a limb, but I bet more waterfowl hunters are out hunting waterfowl during the first week after the opener, than are hunting waterfowl during the "sacred" week.


The only guys that I know that take the week after opener off are guys that are salivating waiting for that Monday to get into FP or SRSGA. I wonder how those same guys might feel if you told them that FP or SRSGA would be opened for 2 days with the normal lottery, rested for 5 days and then another lottery for the next weekend? Gives them the another chance at a lottery pick and the Monday after the 2nd draw might be just as good as the Monday would have been after the first draw. Doesn't it stand to reason the 2nd opening should be when there is the most participation? IMO, that would give the "tennis shoe" hunter the most bang since both opening weekends would be available to them. If you started a week earlier, took 2 off and then had a 2nd lottery, they'd probably really be in heaven.


----------



## just ducky

And heeeeeeeeere we go again  Just look at the locations of the guys who are posting the last few posts...bay area guys who want to hunt all of October and November vs. some SW Michigan guys who realize the birds show up later there, and would like for once in their lifetime to have a shot at shooting some of them. So what have we gained?...we're right back to square one in my mind. 

For what it's worth, I did submit a "compromise" proposal about a month ago through Barb Avers and the DNR for consideration by them and CWAC, and I included all of those same statistics, which is why I suggested we consider an October split. 

John, I appreciate all your trying to do, but I'm going to be very interested to see how this discussion goes Saturday. Hate to be pessimistic, but I see a really long debate coming. 3pm may be optimistic :yikes:


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

TSS Caddis said:


> The only guys that I know that take the week after opener off are guys that are salivating waiting for that Monday to get into FP or SRSGA. I wonder how those same guys might feel if you told them that FP or SRSGA would be opened for 2 days with the normal lottery, rested for 5 days and then another lottery for the next weekend? Gives them the another chance at a lottery pick and the Monday after the 2nd draw might be just as good as the Monday would have been after the first draw. Doesn't it stand to reason the 2nd opening should be when there is the most participation? IMO, that would give the "tennis shoe" hunter the most bang since both opening weekends would be available to them. If you started a week earlier, took 2 off and then had a 2nd lottery, they'd probably really be in heaven.


been suggesting that for months. front loaded split will be gangbusters for us.


----------



## TSS Caddis

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> been suggesting that for months. front loaded split will be gangbusters for us.


I agree with you then.

Taking any time from November under the premise that it helps SW Michigan is really only taking one of their good weeks in Nov and giving them a slightly better week in Dec. IMO. If anyone really wanted to do something for them, take one of their bad weeks(Oct) and give them one more good week(Dec).

I don't know any duck hunters that would rather hunt Oct than Nov.

Who would rather early season brown ducks over late season ducks??









Late season?









I'd take late season every time.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

TSS Caddis said:


> I agree with you then.
> 
> Taking any time from November under the premise that it helps SW Michigan is really only taking one of their good weeks in Nov and giving them a slightly better week in Dec. IMO. If anyone really wanted to do something for them, take one of their bad weeks(Oct) and give them one more good week(Dec).


here's why it works for a SGA. you can flood some zones if you have crops off...we would never flood the whole system anyways as a lot of crops would be still growing/not ready for harvest. there would still be a ton of zones 50-60+. flooded woods, marsh units...etc...there wouldn't be a ton of birds wiping out our food like a novemeber split.

when you get 20-30k birds in your refuge and you place a split down. our food will get decimated during that week.

i would set the pre-registered hunt for the 2nd opener. have that 2 day weekend be open draw. would be mass turnout for it...but hey, tons of participation. would the second opener be as good? maybe, maybe not. open to trying it.


----------



## Mike L

TSS Caddis said:


> The only guys that I know that take the week after opener off are guys that are salivating waiting for that Monday to get into FP or SRSGA. I wonder how those same guys might feel if you told them that FP or SRSGA would be opened for 2 days with the normal lottery, rested for 5 days and then another lottery for the next weekend? Gives them the another chance at a lottery pick and the Monday after the 2nd draw might be just as good as the Monday would have been after the first draw. Doesn't it stand to reason the 2nd opening should be when there is the most participation? IMO, that would give the "tennis shoe" hunter the most bang since both opening weekends would be available to them. If you started a week earlier, took 2 off and then had a 2nd lottery, they'd probably really be in heaven.


That's a heck of an idea, but it's too complicated. The general public I.E. Tennis shoe boys, would be getting busted left and right. And Law Enforcement would be overwhelmed, it will never fly. Generally I disagree with any October split as there are thousands of birds here and shutting her down just doesn't play for me. I understand ducky's position, but I also know that if you know what your doing you can get your ducks.

Even tho running the Bay into the second week of Dec will be a waste for most of the bay hunters, as we will be locked up for sure. It will definitely help the southern Mi boys. I could live with what LoBrass has proposed.


Just read your post kid......an open draw for the opener ? At FP Or Shi Town ?.......I can commit suicide other ways than that......lol


----------



## duckbuster2

Why would anyone not want to hunt ducks in Oct. and Nov. , I don't get it. The seasons have been this way for 50+ years,lets get the season started this is driving me crazy.


----------



## goosemanrdk

TSS Caddis said:


> Doesn't it stand to reason the 2nd opening should be when there is the most participation? IMO, that would give the "tennis shoe" hunter the most bang since both opening weekends would be available to them. .


That right there has been my premise as for the benefits of ANY split in October. But, I am only one vote and from conversations, the DNRE WILL NOT go for any splits in October. GRRR!!!!!!!


----------



## TSS Caddis

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> here's why it works for a SGA. you can flood some zones if you have crops off...we would never flood the whole system anyways as a lot of crops would be still growing/not ready for harvest. there would still be a ton of zones 50-60+. flooded woods, marsh units...etc...there wouldn't be a ton of birds wiping out our food like a novemeber split.
> 
> when you get 20-30k birds in your refuge and you place a split down. our food will get decimated during that week.
> 
> i would set the pre-registered hunt for the 2nd opener. have that 2 day weekend be open draw. would be mass turnout for it...but hey, tons of participation. would the second opener be as good? maybe, maybe not. open to trying it.


I like that 10x over what is on the table. Largely because you have good reasoning behind it vs, "Just take a week in November so the tennis shoe hunter doesn't lose days". 

The solution above gives the early season hunter more value IMO and gives the late season hunter more value IMO.

Alright, everyone else, just fall in line now :lol:


----------



## TSS Caddis

goosemanrdk said:


> That right there has been my premise as for the benefits of ANY split in October. But, I am only one vote and from conversations, the DNRE WILL NOT go for any splits in October. GRRR!!!!!!!


Don't sell it as taking October days to go into December. Sell it as enhancing October hunting with a secondary benefit of a later hunt. 

From what I've read on this site, this is an easier sell than boundary changes.


Easy for me to say. Good luck.:lol:


----------



## LoBrass

:banghead3 "Honey, ah, we may be here a while-don't wait up."

 "OK, guys, one more time-DO WE HAVE A MOTION!!!"

:help: (self explanetory)


We are closer than everyone thinks. Compromise, compromise, compromise. We need to still remember all the facts that got us to this point. Participation is very important and we cannot forget that as we ride into this home stretch.

Some interesting points have been made recently and we should all appreciate the information-I'm sure we all are understanding each other a little better. We sure do have a superb place to chase ducks and geese. When we get by this I can't wait to take the fight to a higher level and challenge for more days of hunting. I still contend that we'd have fewer issues with a 75, 90 or 107 day season.:idea:

Think big.


----------



## anon2192012

I say open Sept first and run through the end of Jan. Oh, and throw in a spring goose season while we're at it.....:evil::lol:


----------



## anon2192012

Gene did bring up a good point about two openers in Oct for the fair weather hunters and even doing two lotteries for the managed units if they wish. This could mean more revenue also if they did the lotteries seperate and charged the fee for both.....just a couple more thoughts.


----------



## goosemanrdk

TSS Caddis said:


> *Don't sell it as taking October days to go into December. Sell it as enhancing October hunting with a secondary benefit of a later hunt. *
> 
> Easy for me to say. Good luck.:lol:


Tried doing just that a month ago, albeit my season dates were a little bit different.
From previous thread!!!
I am sure I may regret this, but I have tried to put something together date wise that just maybe could give everyone a DECENT slice of what they would like from the seasons. This is based on trying to get as "much" as I can for my constituents but also taking into account the other waterfowlers that have a say as well.

So, assuming no change in zones and a 60day season:

Zone 1 
9/24-10/2, then 10/8-11/27

Zone 2
10/1-10/9, then 10/15-12/4

Zone 3 
10/8-10/16, then 10/22-12/11

Rationale:
3 Seperate openers for each zone.
Consistency for the seasons in each zone(ie each opens for 9, closes for 5, re-opens and runs out.)
Having re-openers be at a time of the year when EVERYONE can participate(ie nothing is froze)
Zone1, get westsiders as early opener as possible and only jip them out of 5 days, albeit weekdays, rather than 7 like last year, but also get the eastside guys their later run time.
Zone 2, get the early guys their opener, and still get the late guys their later time.
Zone 3, get the early guys their opener, and get the late guys some time that they would like.

beneficial by products:
*3 seperate first day openers available for EVERYONE(ie those willing to travel).
2 Reopeners available for EVERYONE.*79 available days of duckhunting somewhere in Michigan.

Constructive thoughts? 


Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Never too early to discuss Season Dates. - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383079#ixzz1ToqiRhla


----------



## goosemanrdk

TSS Caddis said:


> , "Just take a week in November so the tennis shoe hunter doesn't lose days".
> 
> 
> :lol:


Now, try convincing the DNRE waterfowl workgroup not to think along these lines and we may actually be able to get somewhere. But they are in charge, and care IMMENSELY about the "tennis shoe" hunter, so if things are to go later, we have to look to take from somewhere else.

Answer me this.

Closure Nov 14-18 or Nov 28-Dec 2, which of these is going to affect the most WATERFOWL hunters?


----------



## just ducky

goosemanrdk said:


> ...
> 
> So, assuming no change in zones and a 60day season:
> 
> Zone 1
> 9/24-10/2, then 10/8-11/27
> 
> Zone 2
> 10/1-10/9, then 10/15-12/4
> 
> Zone 3
> 10/8-10/16, then 10/22-12/11
> 
> ...


Very, very close to what I submitted in writing to the DNR a month ago. Except I also proposed to move the entire bay into Zone 2. Why? Look at your dates...although I think they're almost perfect, most of the east side of the bay boys are going to crucify you for closing them down from 10/17 to 10/22 because that's when they SEE a lot of birds around....nevermind if they can actually shoot any. Now if move them into zone 2, see how your dates work now....hmmmm...a short split really early, and extending later for those who can hunt dry fields in the thumb even after the bay freezes. Pretty damn slick for them IMO. But I'm sorry to say Rob, get ready for the onslaught of complaints...it's about to start.


----------



## just ducky

goosemanrdk said:


> ...Answer me this.
> 
> Closure Nov 14-18 or Nov 28-Dec 2, which of these is going to affect the most WATERFOWL hunters?


Nov 14-18 a TON of regular waterfowl hunters are hunting deer, along with the other million orange clad dudes. So I would say Nov 28 to Dec 2 would be adversely affect more.


----------



## Water_Hazard

If I took a trip to Dakota every year, I would be all for a split. Dates don't need fixing in my opinion.


----------



## goosemanrdk

just ducky said:


> But I'm sorry to say Rob, get ready for the onslaught of complaints...it's about to start.


They can complain away all they want. I know for a FACT that any split in October is DEAD IN THE WATER!!!!! The DNRE waterfowl workgroup won't go for it.


----------



## goosemanrdk

just ducky said:


> Nov 14-18 a TON of regular waterfowl hunters are hunting deer, along with the other million orange clad dudes. So I would say Nov 28 to Dec 2 would be adversely affect more.


DING, DING, DING we have a winner!!!!!!!!!


----------



## goosemanrdk

So after some of the most recent discussions, Thoughts on this for the seasons.

Zone 1
Sep 24-25, Oct 1-Nov27

Zone 2 
Oct 1-Nov 27, Dec 3-4

Zone 3
Oct 8-Nov 13, Nov 19-Dec 11


----------



## Mike L

just ducky said:


> Nov 14-18 a TON of regular waterfowl hunters are hunting deer, along with the other million orange clad dudes. So I would say Nov 28 to Dec 2 would be adversely affect more.


 I'm gonna have to agree with this statement.
Hunter participation really drops during the tree watching season. And a time out/rest period would be good at this time. The numbers at FP reflect
a departure of ducks headed south at this time period as well.
Hey it's only week days, that shouldn't bother the diver hunters as most hunt the week-ends anyway.


----------



## anon2192012

Is two extra weeks in December impossible? I know a lot of people in my area that would gladly give up any two weeks during Oct or Nov for two extra weeks in Dec


----------



## LoBrass

goosemanrdk said:


> So after some of the most recent discussions, Thoughts on this for the seasons.
> 
> Zone 1
> Sep 24-25, Oct 1-Nov27
> 
> Zone 2
> Oct 1-Nov 27, Dec 3-4
> 
> Zone 3
> Oct 8-Nov 13, Nov 19-Dec 11


3 separate openers, 3 splits, maximizing participation, hunting as much of October as we can possibly hunt, hunting Thanksgiving weekend across the state, hunting into December as late as we ever have and exibiting sincere compromise-most should be able to hang their hats on this set of dates.

Obviously no group wants to give up anything however, every group of hunters should expect _*in a compromise*_ to give up 5 days they may consider prime. Under this proposal no single group would give up more than 5 days.

We are not very far off indeed.

DNR Waterfowl Workgroup met today. Tomorrows meeting will be interesting.


----------



## Water_Hazard

goosemanrdk said:


> So after some of the most recent discussions, Thoughts on this for the seasons.
> 
> Zone 1
> Sep 24-25, Oct 1-Nov27
> 
> Zone 2
> Oct 1-Nov 27, Dec 3-4
> 
> Zone 3
> Oct 8-Nov 13, Nov 19-Dec 11


If shiawassee was in zone 2, these dates wouldn't be so bad.


----------



## waterfowlhunter83

Huntermax-4 said:


> Is two extra weeks in December impossible?


Yes it is...the DNR will not let that fly.


----------



## anon2192012

waterfowlhunter83 said:


> Yes it is...the DNR will not let that fly.


 
Well then John needs to get to work getting us a longer season....


----------



## duckbuster2

goosemanrdk said:


> So after some of the most recent discussions, Thoughts on this for the seasons.
> 
> Zone 1
> Sep 24-25, Oct 1-Nov27
> 
> Zone 2
> Oct 1-Nov 27, Dec 3-4
> 
> Zone 3
> Oct 8-Nov 13, Nov 19-Dec 11


Put saginay bay in zone-2 and these dates are good.The best hunting is
when the so called duck hunters are deer hunting. :evil:


----------



## TSS Caddis

goosemanrdk said:


> They can complain away all they want. I know for a FACT that any split in October is DEAD IN THE WATER!!!!! The DNRE waterfowl workgroup won't go for it.


So either fight for a Oct split or leave as is. Don't just take a week from Nov and slap it on the end for no good reason other than to go an extra week where there will be even less participation than there is in Nov.


----------



## DEDGOOSE

goosemanrdk said:


> So after some of the most recent discussions, Thoughts on this for the seasons.
> 
> Zone 1
> Sep 24-25, Oct 1-Nov27
> 
> Zone 2
> Oct 1-Nov 27, Dec 3-4
> 
> Zone 3
> Oct 8-Nov 13, Nov 19-Dec 11


Correct me if I am wrong but what has really changed for zone 2... Its a waste of a split IMO.. Might as well have 60 days straight


----------



## Fall Flight Punisher

*These were the 05-06 date for michigan. We have been able to hunt till the 11th.*​

*I would love to have this again.*​ 






*North Zone Oct. 1-Nov. 29*
*Middle Zone Oct. 1-Oct. 9 and Oct. 22-Dec. 11 6 12  a, b, c*
*South Zone Oct. 15-Dec. 11 and Dec. 31-Jan 1, 2006*​​*COOTS AND*​

*MOORHENS *
*Same season dates as d ucks in the respective zones. 15 30  c*
​​*SNIPE*
*AND RAILS *​
​
*Statewide Sept. 15 - Nov. 14 8 16  c, d*
​​*CANADA GEESE *​*
*​*
North Zone Sept. 1 - 10​*
*Early Season Middle & South Zones Sept. 1 - 15*
*3 6  e*​​*CANADA GEESE *​*
*​*
Upper Peninsula Sept. 24 - Oct. 21​*
*Regular Season Lower Peninsula Oct. 1 - 16 and Nov. 24 - Dec. 5*
*2 4  f*​​*CANADA GEESE *​*
*​*
Allegan Co. GMU Nov. 24 - 27 and Dec. 24 - Dec. 31 1 2​*
*Local Goose Allegan Co. GMU Jan. 1 - 13, 2006 2 4 1,500*
*Management Unit Muskegon W.W. GMU Oct. 25 - Nov. 14 and Dec. 1 - 4 2 4 500 g*
*Seasons Saginaw Co. GMU Oct. 15 - Dec. 3 1 2 2,000*
*Tuscola/Huron GMU Oct. 15 - Dec. 3 1 2 750*​​*CANADA GEESE *​*
*​*
South Zone​*
*Late Season (excluding local GMUs)*
*Dec. 31 - Jan 29, 2006 3 6  g*​​*OTHER GEESE*
*Snow, Blue, Ross*
*Statewide Sept. 24 - Dec. 5*
*10 30*
**
*White-fronted 1 2*
*and Brant*​
*DUCKS*
​


----------



## TSS Caddis

duckbuster2 said:


> Put saginay bay in zone-2 and these dates are good.The best hunting is
> when the so called duck hunters are deer hunting. :evil:


The problem is, we get to keep 5 crap days in the beginning of Oct and lose them during prime time all for what will probably be equivalent days in Dec? What is the purpose of trading an apple for an apple? Isn't the purpose to upgrade? 

All this talk of getting out of the box, making big changes and this is the best that can come out of it? Its changing, not for the good but for the sake of change. Everyone is so afraid of addressing Oct that they are willing to lose better duck days in Nov.? Crazy. What we currently have is good, if you want to change, fight for a change for the better, not an even trade.


----------



## anon2192012

TSS Caddis said:


> The problem is, we get to keep 5 crap days in the beginning of Oct and lose them during prime time all for what will probably be equivalent days in Dec? What is the purpose of trading an apple for an apple? Isn't the purpose to upgrade?
> 
> All this talk of getting out of the box, making big changes and this is the best that can come out of it? Its changing, not for the good but for the sake of change. Everyone is so afraid of addressing Oct that they are willing to lose better duck days in Nov.? Crazy. What we currently have is good, if you want to change, fight for a change for the better, not an even trade.


X2.....as I've stated before, the thing I would like to see more than anything is running later into Dec. The problem with all these proposals is that it is only giving most guys 2 extra days(one weekend) in Dec to hunt. Albeit, these would traditionally be great days, but we can get two awsome days the first of Jan also.


----------



## anon2192012

Fall Flight Punisher said:


> *These were the 05-06 date for michigan. We have been able to hunt till the 11th.*​
> 
> *I would love to have this again.*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *North Zone Oct. 1-Nov. 29*
> *Middle Zone Oct. 1-Oct. 9 and Oct. 22-Dec. 11 6 12  a, b, c*
> *South Zone Oct. 15-Dec. 11 and Dec. 31-Jan 1, 2006*​​*COOTS AND*​
> 
> *MOORHENS *
> ​​*Same season dates as d ucks in the respective zones. 15 30  c*​
> 
> *SNIPE*
> *AND RAILS *​​
> 
> ​​*Statewide Sept. 15 - Nov. 14 8 16  c, d*​
> 
> *CANADA GEESE *​
> 
> ​​*North Zone Sept. 1 - 10*​
> 
> *Early Season Middle & South Zones Sept. 1 - 15*
> *3 6  e*​​*CANADA GEESE *​
> 
> ​​*Upper Peninsula Sept. 24 - Oct. 21*​
> 
> *Regular Season Lower Peninsula Oct. 1 - 16 and Nov. 24 - Dec. 5*
> *2 4  f*​​*CANADA GEESE *​
> 
> ​​*Allegan Co. GMU Nov. 24 - 27 and Dec. 24 - Dec. 31 1 2*​
> 
> *Local Goose Allegan Co. GMU Jan. 1 - 13, 2006 2 4 1,500*
> *Management Unit Muskegon W.W. GMU Oct. 25 - Nov. 14 and Dec. 1 - 4 2 4 500 g*
> *Seasons Saginaw Co. GMU Oct. 15 - Dec. 3 1 2 2,000*
> *Tuscola/Huron GMU Oct. 15 - Dec. 3 1 2 750*​​*CANADA GEESE *​
> 
> ​​*South Zone*​
> 
> *Late Season (excluding local GMUs)*
> *Dec. 31 - Jan 29, 2006 3 6  g*​​*OTHER GEESE*
> ​*Snow, Blue, Ross*
> *Statewide Sept. 24 - Dec. 5*
> *10 30*
> **
> *White-fronted 1 2*
> *and Brant*​
> ​​*DUCKS*​


 

Perfect season dates for ducks for zone 3 IMO. Still hunting later into Dec. and keeping the 2 day hunt.


----------



## LoBrass

Huntermax-4 said:


> Perfect season dates for ducks for zone 3 IMO. Still hunting later into Dec. and keeping the 2 day hunt.


The issue for the eastern side of Zone 3 is that 2nd to 3rd week of October is steadily building duck numbers on all the marshes (Harsens, Pte. Mouillee, Erie). By the 3rd week of October there are usually near 50,000 bluebills on Lake Erie. Couple that with freeze dates and those are the reasons this region FREAKED when that season was penned. It was not right then (started too late-lost a full week) and it will not be right now. The east side compromise is going late into December with a split at a time of very low duck hunting participation (with goosemanrdk's proposal). 

~~~~~~~

Change. We aren't even talking about the "changes" that many feel _really_ need to take place. Those will be addressed in March of 2012.

~~~~~~~

We have likely seen the dates that will be penned (I honestly don't know which). I will represent Waterfowl USA at the meeting so my personal thoughts get removed to a degree. Interesting how this all works.

~~~~~~~

Thank you everyone for giving some great feedback and insight into how you feel duck and goose seasons should be structured. I have learned more about our state and our hunting than I thought I would (so have others) and that can only help. My intention starting this thread was to get this exact dialogue started and thanks to everyone for playing so nice. Sorry, as I was probably the worst offender of civility and hopefully there are no hard feelings. Please feel free to say hello if you happen by the meeting on Saturday. I'd be honored to shake anyones hand who cares so much.


----------



## TSS Caddis

LoBrass said:


> The issue for the eastern side of Zone 3 is that 2nd to 3rd week of October is steadily building duck numbers on all the marshes (Harsens, Pte. Mouillee, Erie). By the 3rd week of October there are usually near 50,000 bluebills on Lake Erie. Couple that with freeze dates and those are the reasons this region FREAKED when that season was penned.


Why would they "freak" about a freeze? 

Doesn't that go 180 from your original stance that the SE guys along with the SW guys wanted to go later?


----------



## Blacklab77

What I dont understand is this. We have been battling over dates for years now (LATER, YES,NO YES,NO,YES,NO). We want to have sw and se zone 3 go later into Dec but Bay guys also in zone 3 dont really want this. They want more days in oct time frame, as not to lose days due to freeze out. So its suggested to put them into zone 2. Solving the problem, but wait, No then we have folks that dont like that idea because that doesnt get them late enough into the season either.
I mean I would venture to guess that 60 to 65% of all ducking takes place in Sag Bay area, SE mich LSC & Erie, and finally SW Mich Area. But the difference in freeze out time is 30 days, min so why oh why did we put them in the same zone oh wait that was done to get them going later into the year at first, but now its not what they want????
So with all that being said it doesnt seem like dates are the issues at all! We know the State of Michigan will have Duck hunting from Sept 24- Dec 11 someplace. Why cant we get to a system that gets away from the whole damn zone concept. Being tied to some damn zone for a set timeframe is what is killing us. Especially in zone 3 where we have 3 areas 150 miles apart that have 30 to 40 days difference in freeze up and when the major build-up of birds are.
Just my ranting thoughts.


----------



## goosemanrdk

Blacklab77 said:


> SIZE]
> Why cant we get to a system that gets away from the whole damn zone concept. Being tied to some damn zone for a set timeframe is what is killing us. QUOTE]
> 
> Assuming that you are refering to trying to have the "choose your own 60days license", the answer is; *Because that is how the feds make us play*.
> 
> And to quote Justducky from another thread:
> I wish you luck with this one John. I know from personal experience that dealing with the federal government can be extremely frustrating. Logic often has no bearing in their viewpoint, and all state regulatory agencies have to play a careful, strategic dance being extremely careful not to "upset the apple cart" so to speak. My 85 year old dad loves the old saying "you may win the battle, but you'll lose the war", and that's very appropriate when dealing with the feds over any issue. Although most will probably agree with your viewpoint, I doubt seriously that the DNR powers will be willing to challenge the feds over this issue.


----------



## TSS Caddis

Blacklab77 said:


> What I dont understand is this. We have been battling over dates for years now (LATER, YES,NO YES,NO,YES,NO). We want to have sw and se zone 3 go later into Dec but Bay guys also in zone 3 dont really want this. They want more days in oct time frame, as not to lose days due to freeze out. So its suggested to put them into zone 2. Solving the problem, but wait, No then we have folks that dont like that idea because that doesnt get them late enough into the season either.
> I mean I would venture to guess that 60 to 65% of all ducking takes place in Sag Bay area, SE mich LSC & Erie, and finally SW Mich Area. But the difference in freeze out time is 30 days, min so why oh why did we put them in the same zone oh wait that was done to get them going later into the year at first, but now its not what they want????
> So with all that being said it doesnt seem like dates are the issues at all! We know the State of Michigan will have Duck hunting from Sept 24- Dec 11 someplace. Why cant we get to a system that gets away from the whole damn zone concept. Being tied to some damn zone for a set timeframe is what is killing us. Especially in zone 3 where we have 3 areas 150 miles apart that have 30 to 40 days difference in freeze up and when the major build-up of birds are.
> Just my ranting thoughts.


Careful with the word "they".

If anything can be taken from these discussions is that there are a bunch of "I's", but no "they" or "we". Like anything involving a ton of people there is no one voice that speaks for everyone in an area.


----------



## field-n-feathers

LoBrass said:


> So are you saying Allegan is a duck killing mecca? *My question is just how many ducks do they kill in Allegan?* They should kill a ton if we are to adjust seasons for that duck locale. I'd be willing to bet TSS Caddis and his crew kill more ducks in a season than the entire area.


The only true harvest number of ducks in Allegan county that I know of is through the Todd Farm. However, there are tons of other hunting opportunities available outside of the Farm Unit from which no true record is kept. I'm sure surveys may help, but not actual numbers like the Farm Unit has. I give Gene and his crew much respect for their skills, but to think they get as much as the entire area.......not even close.



LoBrass said:


> ...And doesn't that area have running water that stays open VERY late into the year and a refuge full of crop fields for feed?


Yes, as a matter of fact it does. So does every other area in the county...... as well as the counties of Van Buren, Kalamazoo, St. Joseph, Cass, Berrien, etc......minus the refuge of course. I would venture to say that many of us over here who are outspoken on this topic don't rely entirely on success in one specific area, and certainly not at one specific managed area. 



LoBrass said:


> If so, doesn't it make sense that as other areas freeze up their count goes through the roof?


I'm sure that might have some effect on the numbers. But for anyone to say that is the sole reason we get an increase is very far fetched, especially when data shows otherwise. Additionally, I don't see why that is remotely relevant. I don't see an outcry to figure out why the east side has a major push of birds earlier in the season. Who cares? If you've got them there, maximize your opportunity. Isn't the entire point to show that they are in fact "here", wherever that may be?



LoBrass said:


> The validity of Allegan as a serious indicator of the regions duck population has to be questioned, IMO.
> 
> Seriously, help me out and tell me how many ducks the area killed in the past few years.


I'll reiterate what I said above......we don't depend on managed areas to get birds over here. The increase in bird populations at Allegan is an absolute indicator of the bird populations in all 7 of extreme SW Michigan counties. When numbers increase there, they are increasing everywhere at the same time.

What is getting frustrating is that after being asked what our opinions are on these proposals, someone who doesn't even hunt here or have a clue how and where we hunt tries to come up with reasons why our opinion is unsubstantiated. I personally won't try to provide input as to why someone wants their season set a certain way when I don't even hunt there. That's what they want, pure and simple. For example, the Bay guys or the SRSGA guys......I don't hunt there. I'm not going to come up with some ridiculous reason why I feel they are wrong. Same for the UP guys.....let them decide. I don't care what their reasons are.


----------



## KLR

FullBody said:


> Some nice outside the box thinking by WI in there. I like it....
> 
> Check out what Illinois just approved...http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/news/Pages/USFWSRegulationsCommitteeOK'sIDNRWaterfowlZonesandDates.aspx
> 
> They excersized the 4 zone option. Seems the way its written on thier site, its a 5 year plan but if changes are made by the feds on season length(i.e less than 60 days) then changes can be made back to the old zones.
> 
> We aren't utilizing our split in any of these proposals in this thread very well. Seems like its just using a split just to split...cuz we can. 5 days isnt much of a split. Hardly gives the birds a break and gains little to extend a season. And regardless of where you put it, hunters arent all happy with it.
> 
> To maximize all this state has to offer effectively, 4 zones seems like a viable option to me. 4 zones, 4 different openers, 60 straight days for each zone that suites it best. I understand the concern about losing a split if seasons are shortend. Very valid. However from everything I can find, adjustments can be made if the seasons are shortend.
> 
> This link was posted earlier for the refuge count here in SW michigan showing clearly that the mallard numbers peak after the season closes. Night and day difference from the east side fuges. Yet the SW is hamstrung by Sag Bay in the same zone.
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2010-11_Weekly_waterfowl_counts_Allegan_SGA_333901_7.pdf


Yep...said that a few threads ago. 

Only thing to argue is who gets to be the 4th zone


----------



## just ducky

LoBrass said:


> Go ahead-as long as the book is RRoO Revised Edition!!!
> 
> And no sleeping. You may need to referee.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> I had a conversation with the CWAC DNR Coordinator today. Interesting to say the least. JD, I'd at least have a comfy chair.


I have my personal version of RRoO in my office, and refer to it often. But playing referee? NOT! :lol:


----------



## just ducky

I proposed the four zone concept a couple years ago, with the LP lines drawn north-south instead of east-west. In fact, I put it in writing and submitted it, but it never got past Joe Robison. The reason given at that time is the feds were not allowing us to redraw our zones...not so now as I understand it. Plus no one back then (according to Joe) wanted to jeopardize our splits. I dropped it. But I still think that eventually would be a creative way to deal with the vast differences in the southern LP from east to west.


----------



## LoBrass

field-n-feathers said:


> What is getting frustrating is that after being asked what our opinions are on these proposals, someone who doesn't even hunt here or have a clue how and where we hunt tries to come up with reasons why our opinion is unsubstantiated. I personally won't try to provide input as to why someone wants their season set a certain way when I don't even hunt there. That's what they want, pure and simple.


Frustrating-yep, sure is.

My intention was not to belittle Allegan. Clearly it holds birds which I'm sure it was designed to do. The intention of the post was to shed light on a unique set of variables and the impact of those variables on the management of the entire Zone 3 season dates.

What everyone needs to understand is that I'm having dialogue with DNR employees, CWAC reps and individuals from around the state and some of those individuals have expressed their stance on some issues. I can tell you that for some folks there is *NO *compromise. THAT is very frustrating and unfortunately my frustration will come out in a post here and there. Believe me when I say that this forum represents less than 25% of my dialogue relating to Michigan waterfowling but often I am posting to 100% of my thoughts. Transparency is what I have strived to achieve and I'd say thus far the entire process has been as clear as it can be.

August 6th can't come soon enough. I sincerely wish that some compromises can be made to satisfy as many constituents as possible. From the conversations that I've had most CWAC reps are on the same page. Those reps that have differing thoughts I'd hope will come to the meeting with an open mind, that's all. Bring your ideas, suggestions and reasoning but I'd suggest bringing a little compromise too. The DNR still has the highest trump cards-we shouldn't forget that.

_Change_ may really be overdo in some regards. Perhaps 4 zones is the answer. Possibly a reconfiguration is in order. The root of many of our problems seems to be returning to the same point. What I can tell this forum is that even under this topic there are those that see "no change" as the answer. Some of those advocating "no change" carry significant weight. Many hurdles still need to be surmounted but the task is not impossible. The ability of this committee to compromise will be tested in the near future. My goal has always been to be fair and to structure waterfowling in Michigan in a manner which utilizes the resource for the maximum benefit. We will need some help to get it done.


----------



## LoBrass

just ducky said:


> I proposed the four zone concept a couple years ago, with the LP lines drawn north-south instead of east-west. In fact, I put it in writing and submitted it, but it never got past Joe Robison. The reason given at that time is the feds were not allowing us to redraw our zones...not so now as I understand it. Plus no one back then (according to Joe) wanted to jeopardize our splits. I dropped it. But I still think that eventually would be a creative way to deal with the vast differences in the southern LP from east to west.


He still has your proposal. We looked at it yesterday.


----------



## TSS Caddis

FullBody said:


> Oh and I'll be sure to look up those Caddis vs. Allegan county numbers for you.


I shot 2 last year. Ok Allegan, lay your cards on the table :lol:


----------



## TSS Caddis

John, does CWAC have a mission statement?

It seems a lot of the discussion is around should a change benefit the highest number of hunters, should it provide the most diverse range of hunting, should it facilitate the highest kill, etc....?


----------



## TSS Caddis

LoBrass said:


> Frankly, you should attend this meeting. You would be enlightened, I'll make certain of it.


Not sure how to take that.

I'm sure this will throw everyone in a tizzy, but here is how my tiny brain processes all of this:

Assumptions I've gleaned from this thread:
1) The majority of Sag Bay does not want to go later or start later(I'm not in the camp).
2) The majority of SE Michigan does not want to go later or start later.
3) The majority of SW Michigan want's to go later.
4) October days are not on the table for a split
5) Hunter participation drops as season progresses
6) Zone change is not on the table
7) Allegan numbers represent SW Michgian

Assumed goal: *Go 1 week later in Zone 3*.

Hurdle 1: With SE Michigan and Sag Bay not wanting to go later they will have to compromise for the discussion to go further. 

Let's say there is a compromose.

Hurdle 2: Is Zone 3 willing to give up the Jan. hunt?

Let's say yes.

Hurdle 3: The next question is how do we facilitate going later? Do we start later? From what I've read Sag Bay and SE doesn't want to start later. 

Let's say there is no compromise on #3 so the splilt is now on the table.

Hurdle 4: Where do we take days from for the split? In a 60 day season that is tough. Where can we take days to add to Dec?

October? From what I've read no one is willing to put that on the table because they fear that the DNR will not go for it because of participation.

November? The feeling is this is the only option the DNR will buy.

Minor Pro: From the Allegan numbers it looks like a lot of November is slightly under par on what they would gain in December. 

Con: Under the assumption that hunter participation drops as the season progresses less people will utilize the extra days in December vs what would have used them in November.

Con: The rest of Zone 3, which much of all ready loses days at the end of season, is now giving up even more huntable days.

At this point the ROI is not there. As much as I'd like to go a week later, it is not worth what we'd have to give up as long as October days are not on the table.


----------



## PhilBernardi

CWAC does have a mission statement.

_Citizen Waterfowl Advisory Committee mission: Provide feedback to the DNR - Wildlife Division on existing and proposed waterfowl regulations and wetland management issues. CWAC members must present views and concerns which represent stakeholders from their areas of the state and disseminate information learned at CWAC meetings back to those stakeholders._


----------



## TSS Caddis

PhilBernardi said:


> CWAC does have a mission statement.
> 
> _Citizen Waterfowl Advisory Committee mission: Provide feedback to the DNR - Wildlife Division on existing and proposed waterfowl regulations and wetland management issues. CWAC members must present views and concerns which represent stakeholders from their areas of the state and disseminate information learned at CWAC meetings back to those stakeholders._


I read the above as providing feedback and respresenting stakeholders in regards to DNR proposals. 

Not saying it is bad to go outside the mission statement and make their own proposals, but typically setting a defined scope and staying in it helps with any meeting. With the above, CWAC submitting proposals seems out of scope.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

TSS Caddis said:


> I read the above as providing feedback and respresenting stakeholders in regards to DNR proposals.
> 
> Not saying it is bad to go outside the mission statement and make their own proposals, but typically setting a defined scope and staying in it helps with any meeting. With the above, CWAC submitting proposals seems out of scope.


Proposal is a way to submit and get people on board. nothing new.

from the proposal you have a starting point for dialog. Said proposal can be amended and modified to move further down the road to getting an agreement.

Usually the loudest barkers never show up to a meeting to see how policy works. They are also the biggest critics. Suggest some of the people on this board visit the meeting and see how things work.


----------



## TSS Caddis

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> Proposal is a way to submit and get people on board. nothing new.
> 
> from the proposal you have a starting point for dialog. Said proposal can be amended and modified to move further down the road to getting an agreement.
> 
> Usually the loudest barkers never show up to a meeting to see how policy works. They are also the biggest critics. Suggest some of the people on this board visit the meeting and see how things work.


Where in the mission statement does it say CWAC can do anything but provide feedback to existing DNR proposals?


----------



## just ducky

TSS Caddis said:


> Where in the mission statement does it say CWAC can do anything but provide feedback to existing DNR proposals?


Here...

"..._*proposed waterfowl regulations and wetland management issues*_..."

I know for a fact they had involvement in creating the recent mute swan control policy, as well as others. What it comes down to is whether the DNR Director is monitoring the activities, and whether he or she gets involved. For years the DNR was rarely using the CWAC's input. Former Director Humprhies changed that. It will be interesting to see if the position of the DNR has changed now that we have a new director.


----------



## TSS Caddis

just ducky said:


> Here...
> 
> "..._*proposed waterfowl regulations and wetland management issues*_..."
> 
> I know for a fact they had involvement in creating the recent mute swan control policy, as well as others. What it comes down to is whether the DNR Director is monitoring the activities, and whether he or she gets involved. For years the DNR was rarely using the CWAC's input. Former Director Humprhies changed that. It will be interesting to see if the position of the DNR has changed now that we have a new director.


Respectfully Dan I read that as proposals from the DNR. I don't read anything that makes me think the mission of CWAC is to do any more than provide input to how their constituents feel on proposals by the DNR.

It clearly states to provide input on proposed changes. If the intent was to propose changes I think it would/should say that.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid

TSS Caddis said:


> Respectfully Dan I read that as proposals from the DNR. I don't read anything that makes me think the mission of CWAC is to do any more than provide input to how their constituents feel on proposals by the DNR.


Gene, the director of waterfowl management sent out an email to all the CWAC members to get in touch with their base and consider changes with waterfowl regulations and zoning about 4 months ago. This is why this topic is hot right now.

I'm sorry that you can't find it published somewhere online...but if you really want to get to bottom of the conspiracy that your creating....call barb avers and ask her about proposals and ask her how we should go about making changes in the future. OR YOU COULD GOTO THE MEETING AND SEE HOW IT WORKS.


----------



## Bellyup

Lobrass,

I don't see how change is possible. There is so much weight placed on verifiable data from managed units all over MI, yet SW MI only has one managed unit to provide some meager data. Of all the times I have said I see more birds in December than I do most of the season, it always comes back to me that I have to provide scientific data to prove it. I have no way of doing that. SW MI is simply not represented well from that aspect. So therefore all we have is our personal observations, and experiences. I think this is a key factor to why SW MI does not get a real voice in the process. It sounds the real voice is the DNR, so we should be lobbying real hard to them, and not CWAC. I always believed in compromise, and have been doing so my whole waterfowl life. So if sometimes I come across as a non compromising person, that is why. I feel the time is to stand my ground and let the other side compromise for once. Selfish ? Maybe. But I know I am not alone. I invite anyone to come to SW MI and hunt the public spots in SW MI the second weekend of the duck season. And the third weekend. We might get a few birds, but I can tell you that you need to be a real serious scout and a superb permission obtainer to get into them with good numbers. 

I feel a split of 5 weekdays is a waste of a split. But it is a start to the right direction. It needs to be for two weeks, no less. SW MI would seriously benefit from hunting well into December, even the third weekend. There will be years we get froze out and lose the birds, but that is the chance every zone takes; regardless. The so called early season hunters will still hunt the early part of the season; most don&#8217;t hunt into November anyway if they are tennis shoe hunters. I don&#8217;t see where that argument about hunter participation will go down is even a valid consideration. 

I sincerely ask that Joe Robinson is seriously lobbied to split in Oct for zone 3, and run well into December for season dates. If it takes a survey with signatures on it, let&#8217;s get that ball rolling. I would love to come to the meeting in the bay this Saturday, but feel that is working against the system. If we do that, there is no reason to have CWAC; CWAC represents us at the meetings. This prevents mayhem and the use of Roberts Rules to the extreme. Can you imagine if 50% of the waterfowlers in the state came in that meeting and expressed their desires ? You would need a week to hear it all. Nobody wants that. 

I also feel a 4 zones is a serious contender for the answer. I have seen several options posted here that were very close to perfect. And it addressed most of the complaints I have read on here. There would be far less compromise with 4 zones than if you only had 3. This means a lot more of your constituents would be pleased, and a less stress at the meetings. 

Next, I like your representation, and feel you are close to giving in to the pressures of politics. Keep your emotion inside and continue plowing forth, I think you have some great ideas, and a level enough head to see it through. 

Personally, I feel Michigan should become a leader and not a follower to those on our left.


----------



## just ducky

TSS Caddis said:


> Respectfully Dan I read that as proposals from the DNR. I don't read anything that makes me think the mission of CWAC is to do any more than provide input to how their constituents feel on proposals by the DNR.
> 
> It clearly states to provide input on proposed changes. If the intent was to propose changes I think it would/should say that.


I see your point. Yes, it could be worded more clearly. I can just say that in the last couple of years, the DNR has actively used CWAC input a lot more than they used to.


----------



## just ducky

Bellyup said:


> It sounds the real voice is the DNR, so we should be lobbying real hard to them, and not CWAC.


As we've said many times, the CWAC is only advisory. It's up to the leadership of the DNR to decide how much weight to put in the input of the CWAC. As I said before, Becky Humphries believed strongly in this input being a big part of the decision process. Some others have not.



Bellyup said:


> I sincerely ask that Joe Robinson is seriously lobbied to split in Oct for zone 3, and run well into December for season dates. If it takes a survey with signatures on it, lets get that ball rolling.


Joe Robison isn't the decision maker...he's only the coordinator of the CWAC for the DNR. Any kind of proposal on waterfowl issues should start with Barb Avers, the DNR's Waterfowl and Wetland Specialist. But even Barb is only part of the picture...she's not that high of a level either.



Bellyup said:


> I would love to come to the meeting in the bay this Saturday, but feel that is working against the system. If we do that, there is no reason to have CWAC; CWAC represents us at the meetings. This prevents mayhem and the use of Roberts Rules to the extreme. Can you imagine if 50% of the waterfowlers in the state came in that meeting and expressed their desires ? You would need a week to hear it all. Nobody wants that.


"members of the public" such as myself at CWAC meetings are given a chance to speak in the "public comment" portion of the meeting as directed by the chair, but we really aren't allowed to get involved in the open discussions unless asked by the Committee themselves. The reason I like to go is to hear ALL of the discussion, from the corners of the UP, to SE Michigan, to SW Michigan, etc. through their CWAC reps. That helps me personally understand how we get to the decisions we get to. Unless the meeting is televised, taped or otherwise available for all to see, you won't have a good idea why a certain date fell out as the opener for Zone 2 for example. All you'll know is that is the date, and you'll either like it or not. So to me it helps understand what the concerns and issues are. I also think it's VERY important for me to be there due to my elected roles in both the MDHA, and the Shiawassee Flats Citizens and Hunters Association (SFCHA). If something goes on which adversely affects either of those groups, I need to be there to voice the opinion of our group, which I can do in the "public comment" portion, or I can simply pull either the MDHA or the SFCHA CWAC rep aside at a break and give them my thoughts. 

Bottom line to all of this regarding each of our rights....

1) we have this avenue for input called CWAC, and we are all represented in one fashion or the other, if nothing more than by the "at large" members. So we all have input through CWAC if we choose to use it.

2) we have input through the DNR Waterfowl Specialist Barb Avers. Her job is to help create and administer policy related to waterfowl. So we can all contact her.

3) we have input through the DNR leadership, ultimately the director himself.

4) finally, we have input through the Natural Resources Commission (NRC). If you've voiced your opinions through #1-#3 above and you still don't feel as if you've been given your due, go directly to the NRC in writing, or by showing up at the NRC meeting.


----------



## TSS Caddis

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> Gene, the director of waterfowl management sent out an email to all the CWAC members to get in touch with their base and consider changes with waterfowl regulations and zoning about 4 months ago. This is why this topic is hot right now.
> 
> I'm sorry that you can't find it published somewhere online...but if you really want to get to bottom of the conspiracy that your creating....call barb avers and ask her about proposals and ask her how we should go about making changes in the future. OR YOU COULD GOTO THE MEETING AND SEE HOW IT WORKS.


I don't think there is a conspiracy. And if you think I didn't already knew what the mission statement was before I asked, well... 

The whole you need to attend the CWAC meeting is played out. That's like saying you can't have a stance on political issues unless you sit in the senate gallery.


----------



## birdshooter

LoBrass said:


> JD, I would just like to point out that each and every CWAC member ALSO travels at their expense to attend these meetings. If there was a big payoff from ANY faction within the state I sure didn't get a chunk of it!! (I will say the B & C Pizza was KILLER-as usual. When I lived in Saginaw and Midland we used to get it all the time:corkysm55)
> 
> Explaining the process to some guys is near impossible because they really have no idea the amount of information put forward. As I was sitting next to Joe Robison he was thumbing through some old data. He showed me one sheet which was from the 70's and 80's that had the percentages of ducks killed in October for every year starting around 1971ish. ALL the percentages were 75-85% of the total duck harvest for Michigan was in OCTOBER. The information really wasn't relevant because I don't know exact season dates for those years but, none the less, the numbers were staggering.
> 
> There are other factors to take into account too. When you consider that the Great Lakes Mallards (GLM) (those birds produced in Minn, Wis and MI) are down 40% from the long term average a level of protection needs to be given those birds. Also consider now that 75% of our Michigan mallard harvest comes from the GLM population. By having seasons correspond when other species are present to take some pressure off those birds it is in the best interest of the mallard resource. Everyone wants to hammer the daylights out of our GLM's and, right now, it is not good for the resource. Those mallards here in December are from those stocks.
> 
> We left our 4 bird mallard limit alone. Honestly, I considered offering up a *2 or 3 MALLARD LIMIT:SHOCKED:*. I just want my kids to have a dad for the foreseeable future. THAT would be good for the resource.
> 
> I've said it before and Dave Luukkonen eluded to it-maybe Adaptive Harvest Management (AHM) does not fit Michigan(I may have said that before:idea. AHM was derived from the Mid-Continent Mallard population and we harvest very few of those birds. Yet here we are with the same limit as every other state in the flyway. AHM is no such thing. If it was "adaptive" it would reason that when we had terrible low (which we HAVE had in the last 15 years) numbers the liberal season would have been restricted. IF adaptive, we should theoretically have occassional restricted seasons, many moderate seasons and a few liberal seasons. Stands to reason. If our main seasons are moderate then a year like this year (where numbers of ponds and bird counts are in the top 5 in history) we should be super liberal. The resource could handle it (with the exception of our GLM). We could make bag limits more regionally restrictive and hunt for far more days.
> 
> Come attend some meetings and you to can educate yourselves.


 
if thats true on the mallards explain how it is that the banded birds shot in our group later in the season are from places such as saska , nd, maine even one from alberta so on, and no bands early ??

additon : Wouldnt this lead one to think that the birds getting killed earlier are from the glm ?


----------



## Chemicoducker

birdshooter said:


> if thats true on the mallards explain how it is that the banded birds shot in our group later in the season are from places such as saska , nd, maine even one from alberta so on, and no bands early ??
> 
> additon : Wouldnt this lead one to think that the birds getting killed earlier are from the glm ?


Did you seriously post this question? No bands early? Banded birds from other than Great Lakes late? If you are serious and not being sarcastic, contact Dave Luukkonen or Barb Avers at the DNR and have them explain the GL Mallard issue to you. Great folks who are professionals and have the science, experience and the DATA to back up what they are saying. We cannot base waterfowl management on a few band returns that you have had. I'm glad you're shooting banded birds. That's awesome, and the migration is good to you. But we need to move this discussion into something positive for the ducks we have in this state and start getting involved to solve the problem that is looming, IMO...


----------



## birdshooter

Chemicoducker said:


> Did you seriously post this question? No bands early? Banded birds from other than Great Lakes late? If you are serious and not being sarcastic, contact Dave Luukkonen or Barb Avers at the DNR and have them explain the GL Mallard issue to you. Great folks who are professionals and have the science, experience and the DATA to back up what they are saying. We cannot base waterfowl management on a few band returns that you have had. I'm glad you're shooting banded birds. That's awesome, and the migration is good to you. But we need to move this discussion into something positive for the ducks we have in this state and start getting involved to solve the problem that is looming, IMO...


 
yes i posted this question because the way your people in your group make it sound that if we have a late split in january or hell lets say even around the dec 20th we will wipe out our breeding stock and thats so far fetched but i can see if you tell yourself somthing for long enough you might start believing its true .


----------



## LoBrass

birdshooter said:


> if thats true on the mallards explain* how it is that the banded birds shot in our group later in the season are from places such as saska , nd, maine even one from alberta* so on, and no bands early ??
> 
> additon : Wouldnt this lead one to think that the birds getting killed earlier are from the glm ?


You are lucky I guess-how am I to respond to that? Are you telling me everything? The 2 bands I shot last year were both from Ontario. Go figure. Our DNR staff has the very BEST information. Am I to assume you feel they are liars? If you believe that-this conversation is over.

I HOPE you returned that information so the birds were counted in the harvest estimates.


----------



## lewy149

Your going to see more banded locally mallards. We were up scouting in the roscommon area few years back and had quite a long chat with a Co. He stated woodies were gonna take a backseat for a while and mallards were in the front burner. They were done banding woodies and concentrating on banding mallards to try and improve the dwindling #s. I would support going to 2 mallards.


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## lewy149

Our duck #s last year in that area were Down from the year before and the mallard numbers were pathetic. In a spot we shot a 4 man woodies, ringer, mallard, teal mixed bag limit held zero ducks during all scouting trips.


----------



## Chemicoducker

LoBrass said:


> Promise. I'll go one better, I'll suggest they tabulate the surveys they have sent out the last 2 or 3 years (hasn't been done) AND I'll have them send one to each CWAC rep so we have an idea what they are asking.
> 
> Yours Truly,
> 
> bud (aka. LoBrass, aka. John Huffman)


----------



## just ducky

birdshooter said:


> Thats just it ducky i do spend my hard earned money to travel to all kinds of areas to find birds for what ever the reason being freeze out i sugest that the bay folks do the same and travel there butts around instead of cryn were froze out n blah blah to the rest .


You didn't read, (or comprehend?) what I said. We ALL spend a ton of our own money running around to hunt. What I said was spending money to attend these meetings, on our own time, with our own vehicles. As John said, everyone in that room (short of DNR staff who are working) were volunteering their time, money and efforts. So don't cry about all the money you spend...we all do.


----------



## LoBrass

birdshooter said:


> yes i posted this question because the way your people in your group make it sound that if we have a late split in january or hell lets say even around the dec 20th we will wipe out our breeding stock and thats so far fetched but i can see if you tell yourself somthing for long enough you might start believing its true .


"Your people"? Really?

This is a public forum and I (John Huffman) threw out some details that were from ME. Some of this information was not discussed at the meeting. Some of these things are theories from me. This is a public forum and I can post whatever I like. Come to a CWAC meeting and I'll speak only of the issues and in facts.

And if you don't believe our GLM's are in a nose dive you are sadly mistaken. 40% down from the long term average my friend. That-is serious. And it says AHM for Michigan may not be working as it was intended.


----------



## lewy149

Posted in the other forum but was hoping someone will see and help me out



lewy149 said:


> What ever happened to that trust money from oil and timber?? Did that get robbed for roads and airports like our awesome government wanted. Id support giving it to Co's before the suggested idea. I'm baffled they could just sit on that much money and have not wasted it. But looks like someone will blow it for sportsman. Why not use that money to say sink Wells in flooding to pump water in em or plant feed? I honestly don't know much about the money or how it can be used. So if some could enlighten me that would be great. Just another avenue to talk about.


----------



## KLR

LoBrass said:


> And if you don't believe our GLM's are in a nose dive you are sadly mistaken. 40% down from the long term average my friend. That-is serious. And it says AHM for Michigan may not be working as it was intended.


Appreciate the hard work that has been put forth by the CWAC group.

Regarding the issue of the GLM pop. has there been any discussion on how season dates may help??

It would seem to me pushing our dates back just a week would allow the juvie drakes to show some more color (in theory, helping cut down mi-id'd birds) and tossing a split in October would spare some of our native birds instead of pounding on them until flight birds show up.

I realize participation is high on the list of things - but should never be at the expense of the resource.


----------



## Chemicoducker

birdshooter said:


> yes i posted this question because the way your people in your group make it sound that if we have a late split in january or hell lets say even around the dec 20th we will wipe out our breeding stock and thats so far fetched but i can see if you tell yourself somthing for long enough you might start believing its true .


FYI, "Your People" are OUR people. We're waterfowlers to the "nth" degree, and we are doing our best to provide hunting opportunity for everybody. We don't get paid, we don't get compensated, and we don't get perks. We do it because we want what is best for our hunting heritage. You are making assumptions about the reasons the January split didn't happen. It was voted down, plain and simple. I'll do you one even better. Next year, let's have coffee or a beer somewhere before the meeting and talk about this so we can get enough people on the same page to sway the vote. That's the democratic process. I'm not disagreeing with you wanting a late split. Hell, I started the motion to have it the same as last year. But don't finger point and make accusations to those of us who are representing YOU. Your voice counts, your opinion counts, but don't shoot the messenger. I'm simply suggesting that we have problems brewing with our local mallards and they need to be addressed. A two day split is not going to affect the Great Lakes Mallard population. If that was the case, we wouldn't have a season as long as we have. Granted there is an argument that hunting affects populations. I personally disagree with that. There is science available to show that hunting pressure is not a major factor in population numbers, but more importantly nest success and hatchling survival are contributing factors. Water, habitat, and predation are often times credited to duck numbers. Makes sense to me. But I'm not a waterfowl biologist. 

There is a Great Lakes States mallard study that is ramping up. The DNR mentioned it yesterday, and I am excited to see how the research progresses. The study will take place between the DNR and MSU. This is very important to our ducks here in Michigan and surrounding GL states. 

We are on the same team. I'm from the Mid-Michigan area. Yesterday I mentioned over and over again what the hunters from Mid-Michigan relayed to me as their wants and needs for hunting seasons We hunt here too, but we take advantage of the seasons we have and make efforts to make change when we can. Sometimes, like yesterday, we get outvoted. That's life, and even though I don't particularly care for it, I'll be in the blind during the split. Bring on the season!!


----------



## just ducky

KLR said:


> Appreciate the hard work that has been put forth by the CWAC group.
> 
> Regarding the issue of the GLM pop. has there been any discussion on how season dates may help??
> 
> It would seem to me pushing our dates back just a week would allow the juvie drakes to show some more color (in theory, helping cut down mi-id'd birds) and tossing a split in October would spare some of our native birds instead of pounding on them until flight birds show up.
> 
> I realize participation is high on the list of things - but should never be at the expense of the resource.


As Chemicoducker said in his post, there is a great lakes regional study going on, because the DNR showed figures yesterday indicating the drop in Michigan mallards is similar to what is being seen in WI, MN, and others. So it's kind of a region wide issue, but it is VERY real.


----------



## Mike L

I was actually shocked when I heard our mallards were down 40%.....whoa !
It's been mentioned before but this is the fist time I've heard a percentage.
And ? I never realized that 75% of our mallard kill was in the three sate area.

Something, must be done, sooner rather than later. And I'd make it drastic right from the git go. 2 mallards per day one of which can be a hen. A lot of nests were flooded out this year so our production was low....that's not going to help the low numbers. Maybe a couple of years of restricted bag limit's might turn the population back to the long term average.


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## just ducky

lewy149 said:


> Posted in the other forum but was hoping someone will see and help me out


Lewy, I saw your other post too. To explain where that trust money is, and where it's supposed to go, is a whole other topic, and would take this way off track. From the meetings I've been in at MUCC on behalf of the MDHA, my understanding is that money is there, but it's earmarked for certain uses, and can't be shifted around to where the true need is, for instance Law Enforcement. But really, this question should be directed to the DNR. OR to the MUCC policy people, who stay on top of it very well.

back to topic...


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## lewy149

Thanks ducky figured as much


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## KLR

just ducky said:


> As Chemicoducker said in his post, there is a great lakes regional study going on, because the DNR showed figures yesterday indicating the drop in Michigan mallards is similar to what is being seen in WI, MN, and others. So it's kind of a region wide issue, but it is VERY real.


Not doubting it's validity....it stands to reason when we open 10/01 and don't see any appreciable flight birds until around Halloween, our population is going to suffer.

I was surprised to see MN go with a 2 hen limit this year...

Maybe it's time to consider a "season within a season" for mallards similar to the bluebill limits we had in 2008-2009, or the Can restrictions we had a few years previous.


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## Chemicoducker

Before we start dropping bag limits, let's get the facts from the study. As I mentioned earlier, some science suggests harvest by hunting is not a major contributing factor to duck populations. We are permitted to harvest surplus. If the surplus is low, then we'll lower our limits. The continental population currently sustains our season limits. That's not saying things can change. 

What can we do right now? Join the Michigan Duck Hunters Association to assist your state organization in making positive change right here in our state, and join Ducks Unlimited and Delta Waterfowl to assist in making change across the North American continent!

www.midha.org
www.ducks.org
www.deltawaterfowl.org


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## DEDGOOSE

Mike L said:


> Something, must be done, sooner rather than later. And I'd make it drastic right from the git go. 2 mallards per day one of which can be a hen. A lot of nests were flooded out this year so our production was low....that's not going to help the low numbers. Maybe a couple of years of restricted bag limit's might turn the population back to the long term average.


Or how about restricting the harvest of our Michigan Birds while still allowing four mallards.. It could read

Bag Limit Mallard- 4 duck limit in which 2 or more must have "Big Red" Legs

Shooting the Red legged variety would ensure that we are harvesting more of the migrants than just our GLM population


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## lewy149

DEDGOOSE said:


> Or how about restricting the harvest of our Michigan Birds while still allowing four mallards.. It could read
> 
> Bag Limit Mallard- 4 duck limit in which 2 or more must have "Big Red" Legs
> 
> Shooting the Red legged variety would ensure that we are harvesting more of the migrants than just our GLM population


LOL, and if they have red legs 2 may be hens......


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## KLR

Chemicoducker said:


> Before we start dropping bag limits, let's get the facts from the study.


 
So is the 40% decrease just a WAG? 

I've seen the same science that suggests hunting has no appreciable impact on numbers, but that didn't stop the BB & Can limits from getting pinched as a precaution.

.


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## anon2192012

KLR said:


> Not doubting it's validity....it stands to reason when we open 10/01 and don't see any appreciable flight birds until around Halloween, our population is going to suffer.
> 
> I was surprised to see MN go with a 2 hen limit this year...
> 
> Maybe it's time to consider a "season within a season" for mallards similar to the bluebill limits we had in 2008-2009, or the Can restrictions we had a few years previous.


 

Or make the limit 4 mallards, NONE of which may be hens. 

Maybe that is how we'll get a later season. We can't hunt Oct because the birds are not at full color and our GLM pop will suffer. To me it would make sense to open Nov. 1 and run through the end of the year.:evil:


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## just ducky

KLR said:


> Not doubting it's validity....it stands to reason when we open 10/01 and don't see any appreciable flight birds until around Halloween, our population is going to suffer.
> 
> I was surprised to see MN go with a 2 hen limit this year...
> 
> Maybe it's time to consider a "season within a season" for mallards similar to the bluebill limits we had in 2008-2009, or the Can restrictions we had a few years previous.


From the discussion Saturday, the experts in the region are still trying to get a handle on the reasons, but no one (at least that I heard) is blaming over-hunting. They mentioned loss of habitat, poor pond counts in many areas, and other factors. 

The concern is there. Now I think we have to give our experts a bit of time to see if there's a good solution.


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## just ducky

KLR said:


> So is the 40% decrease just a WAG?
> 
> I've seen the same science that suggests hunting has no appreciable impact on numbers, but that didn't stop the BB & Can limits from getting pinched as a precaution.
> 
> .


Probably an "educated" SWAG I guess. Based a lot on recovered band data, and actual bird checks, which I know they've been doing checks at some of the Michigan managed areas for a few years. But it seems to be the best info they have.


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## Chemicoducker

KLR said:


> So is the 40% decrease just a WAG?
> 
> I've seen the same science that suggests hunting has no appreciable impact on numbers, but that didn't stop the BB & Can limits from getting pinched as a precaution.
> 
> .


And the actions by the USFWS was extremely contentious, prompting letters being written from the waterfowl community. We're still losing scaup, and we're back to two bird limits, full season. Canvasbacks, full season. Pintails, full season. I'm just worried about knee-jerk reactions, and it seems the DNR is also thinking along those lines. Our resident Giant Canada Goose numbers are the lowest this year that they've been in a long time (from DNR info yesterday) but the thought process was to not reduce the late season harvest because a trend hasn't been evident. Can the bag limits change? Absolutely. Do they need to? Not sure yet. I personally feel the evidence does not support a decrease in GL mallard harvest. If the evidence shows that, then perhaps we should drop the limits. I'm not saying kill every duck you see. I will be setting my own limits on mallards. I practice voluntary restraint on hen harvest, and I don't kill my limits every chance I get. It's not my style. Understand that the GLM numbers are 40% below the LTA. Why? That's what the studies are for. Theories are there, but they are just theories. I want science to dictate what happens, and trends need to be developed. There is certainly a lot more to the story about the GLM decrease, and I am waiting to see the report as to why. If we need to close the season on mallards sometime in the future, then that may be what has to happen. I will support whatever comes around because our biologists are paid to do what is best for our resources. I just don't want to see everybody make a hasty decision based on minimal facts. A WAG? No, I don't believe for a second it was a WAG. I know Dave Luukkonen and Barb Avers, and I feel their information is the best available. I do believe that we're 40% below the LTA. I may be wrong, which I've been many times in my life, but I don't think it was a 40% reduction from last year. I recall our populations were 40% below the long-term average. If I'm wrong I apologize. Nobody at that meeting appeared extremely concerned about our bag limit this season, but we are all watching the DNR/MSU study closely to see what is coming down the line.

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: The Michigan Sportsman Forums - Reply to Topic http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3742028#ixzz1UMhetUb7


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## duckbuster2

birdshooter said:


> yes i posted this question because the way your people in your group make it sound that if we have a late split in january or hell lets say even around the dec 20th we will wipe out our breeding stock and thats so far fetched but i can see if you tell yourself somthing for long enough you might start believing its true .


 
I have been hunting in the same general area for 40+ years,and since the late split started we have been seeing less and less mallards.
I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not , but I'd like to see if it makes a difference.


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## anon2192012

duckbuster2 said:


> I have been hunting in the same general area for 40+ years,and since the late split started we have been seeing less and less mallards.
> I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not , but I'd like to see if it makes a difference.


:lol::lol::lol:


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## Chemicoducker

So, great conversation from the CWAC meeting. Today I planned to do some of the "honey do" list, but I'm spending time online. I can't wait to start scouting for geese!!! Patterning has begun, permissions secured, now it's time for Sept. 1 to roll in. I just hope the early wheat harvest doesn't mess up the fields too bad!:sad:


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## Bellyup

All I can say is that I am very dissapointed in the season dates for Zone 3. 

Since nobody took my bet that nothing would change, I guess I will drink alone. 

Anyone want to start betting now for next season ? My bet is nothing will change. 

One question - When will SW MI get the recognition it deserves ? The process of change is so difficult and hard to obtain that I would actually think of re-locating from the state if the right job offer came about. There is a lot of B.S. going on around here.


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## TNL

It's IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone. I live in SW MI. Last year we had 3000 mallards circling over our heads the last 5 minutes of the season. A couple of years before that, we broke our trailer lights trying to get through the ice at the launch - all of our wiring corroded on the boat and trailer from the salt used on the road - and nary a duck was seen.

Boys, the season will open and ducks will die. Those that don't will be next years seed. Time to move on.


TNL


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## BFG

Hey Hey! We get to hunt ducks and geese this year!


HOORAY BEER!!!!!!


----------



## TSS Caddis

Bellyup said:


> When will SW MI get the recognition it deserves ?


How do you know SW is getting no recognition? How do you define how much it deserves?

Right now, I'm sure you feel as though SW get's nothing, when I'm 100% positive from reading other posts that there are plenty of hunters in other areas in Zone 3 that do not want to go into December. It is all about perspective. If I was a FP puddle hunter, I might feel as though anything after Thanksgiving is useless and everyone is catering to open water guys and the SW. In their eyes they may feel they are getting the short end of the stick. Last time we were open this late LoBrass stated the SE guys screamed that it was too late, maybe they feel as though they are giving in to the SW guys? So maybe 2 weekends in December is already giving SW Michigan the recognition it deserves?


----------



## Bellyup

Caddis,

There is no data from SW MI. The DNR Admits it, Just Ducky admits it, a lot of people admit it. As LoBrass posted, Joe Robinson showed him data from a long time ago all indicating October was prime time. I have hunted for as long as it has been legal for me to do so, and prior to that went with my father. October is a great month to hunt ducks. Usually the first weekend opener, and if you are lucky, they hang around the second weekend. But they do get pushed out. 

So the only thing SW MI hunters have going for them is opinions, personal observations, and experiences. I am speaking exclusively of SW MI, not Zone 3 as a whole. SW MI lacks public areas; in fact Allegan is the only manages resource on our side. And from reading posts the data from there is not taken very seriously. So you tell me how else are we to lobby for a change other than being very aggressive with it ? Speak loud and carry a big stick ? We CAN'T provide the scientific data they require. And for the record, nobody can provide data for hunting into Mid December, there has never been a duck season that runs near Xmas time. But I have hunted geese in this time frame, and I can tell you there are a ton of ducks around in the fields, no matter how froze the water is on the lakes. We have enough rivers and streams that there is always open water, at any time of the year. Most of it is private or in town. 

I can tell you one thing, I find this whole process frustrating, and to be honest, too political. I know Robert proposed better dates. I don't argue he is not trying. If he can't get a proposal past CWAC, how the hell are we going to get it to the DNR ? 

Next year there better be a 4 zone proposal on the table and being considered. Enough of this *****footing around. 

If Robert does resign, I hope we can find someone to represent SW MI as well.


----------



## TSS Caddis

Bellyup said:


> Caddis,
> 
> There is no data from SW MI. The DNR Admits it, Just Ducky admits it, a lot of people admit it. As LoBrass posted, Joe Robinson showed him data from a long time ago all indicating October was prime time. I have hunted for as long as it has been legal for me to do so, and prior to that went with my father. October is a great month to hunt ducks. Usually the first weekend opener, and if you are lucky, they hang around the second weekend. But they do get pushed out.
> 
> So the only thing SW MI hunters have going for them is opinions, personal observations, and experiences. I am speaking exclusively of SW MI, not Zone 3 as a whole. SW MI lacks public areas; in fact Allegan is the only manages resource on our side. And from reading posts the data from there is not taken very seriously. So you tell me how else are we to lobby for a change other than being very aggressive with it ? Speak loud and carry a big stick ? We CAN'T provide the scientific data they require. And for the record, nobody can provide data for hunting into Mid December, there has never been a duck season that runs near Xmas time. But I have hunted geese in this time frame, and I can tell you there are a ton of ducks around in the fields, no matter how froze the water is on the lakes. We have enough rivers and streams that there is always open water, at any time of the year. Most of it is private or in town.
> 
> I can tell you one thing, I find this whole process frustrating, and to be honest, too political. I know Robert proposed better dates. I don't argue he is not trying. If he can't get a proposal past CWAC, how the hell are we going to get it to the DNR ?
> 
> Next year there better be a 4 zone proposal on the table and being considered. Enough of this *****footing around.
> 
> If Robert does resign, I hope we can find someone to represent SW MI as well.


I understand your frustration. But still, how do you know the 2 weekends into December this year is not already a compromise for SW Michigan?


----------



## Chemicoducker

I know the splits, zones, etc. are hot topics with a lot of people. I just pray we can stick together when the bad stuff hits the fan. HSUS has a lobbyist in Lansing, and don't think for a second she is not getting news about the differences the duck hunting community is PUBLICLY expressing. Right, wrong or indifferent, the anti's work on a "divide and conquer" philosophy. Don't believe me? Look what happened with the mourning dove issue!

Bottom line, we're making it easy for the anti hunters to make us a target. I know voices need to be heard, and proposals need to be addressed, and even frustrations need to be aired. I just don't want, not for a second, for people to lose sight of the number one priority for all of us... hunting! Just so we're all on the same team when the lawsuits and the voting starts guys. We do stand a lot to lose, and it could be coming sooner than we think.


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## just ducky

TSS Caddis said:


> How do you know SW is getting no recognition? How do you define how much it deserves?
> 
> Right now, I'm sure you feel as though SW get's nothing, when I'm 100% positive from reading other posts that there are plenty of hunters in other areas in Zone 3 that do not want to go into December. It is all about perspective. If I was a FP puddle hunter, I might feel as though anything after Thanksgiving is useless and everyone is catering to open water guys and the SW. In their eyes they may feel they are getting the short end of the stick. Last time we were open this late LoBrass stated the SE guys screamed that it was too late, maybe they feel as though they are giving in to the SW guys? So maybe 2 weekends in December is already giving SW Michigan the recognition it deserves?


Wow Gene....again we're thinking alike. Pretty scary :yikes:

I tried to say this same thing in my other post when I tried to look at it from the various perspectives of hunters all over southern lower Michigan, as well as the conversations with hunters at the festival from various locations. As I said, very few were happy at all. There really were no true winners if you look at it that way, and most felt they took it where the sun doesn't shine. But most are willing to give it a try. But isn't that the definition of compromise?

Many posts yesterday and today have said that you have a right to be upset. But so do the guys at Fish Point, guys on Lake St. Clair, Lake Erie, etc. So guys you just aren't going to convince anyone that ONLY West/SW Michigan got screwed because from an OBJECTIVE, Big picture point of view, WE ALL GOT SCREWED.

And don't anyone try to say "those Fish Point guys got more hunting in december" or "those Shiawassee guys got more time in December". You know what? SO DID YOU IN WEST/SW MICHIGAN!!!! How are they better off than you are? They lost the Jan weekend, and they gained two days in December.....um....HUH???


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## Shiawassee_Kid

just ducky said:


> So guys you just aren't going to convince anyone that ONLY West/SW Michigan got screwed because from an OBJECTIVE, Big picture point of view, WE ALL GOT SCREWED.


don't want to rub salt in the wounds...but I don't fall into your "all" description. Maybe i've become a tennis shoe hunter...


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## just ducky

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> don't want to rub salt in the wounds...but I don't fall into your "all" description. Maybe i've become a tennis shoe hunter...


My point is that you lost the two days in January too, and many people did hunt them, whether they drove two hours to do it or not. But you gained two days in December that potentially could be good. From my "big picture" perspective, if they feel they got screwed, then so did you. All I'm saying.


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## Chemicoducker

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> don't want to rub salt in the wounds...but I don't fall into your "all" description. Maybe i've become a tennis shoe hunter...


:yikes:


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## Bellyup

TSS Caddis said:


> I understand your frustration. But still, how do you know the 2 weekends into December this year is not already a compromise for SW Michigan?


Caddis,

How do I know this ? Becasue we already had a later in the season 2 days to hunt. The Jan split. That is how I view it. We basically did not change the ACTUAL season. It is simply taking a two day split in January and tacking it at the end of a regular season. How do you feel it is compramise when nothing new was established ? We lost EXACTLY what we gained. 2 days. How does that qualify as change ? 

At any rate, I know the entire state can't ever be pleased. Someone is going to be downriver when you pee in the river. It just feels like all rivers head south in Michigan. Michigan is how old ? Don't you feel these baby steps ought to be at least teenager steps by now ?


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## just ducky

Bellyup said:


> Caddis,
> 
> How do I know this ? Becasue we already had a later in the season 2 days to hunt. The Jan split. That is how I view it. We basically did not change the ACTUAL season. It is simply taking a two day split in January and tacking it at the end of a regular season. How do you feel it is compramise when nothing new was established ? We lost EXACTLY what we gained. 2 days. How does that qualify as change ?...


Man I'm getting tired of saying this in response to so many posts....BIG PICTURE...BIG PICTURE...BIG PICTURE! You say you lost exactly what you gained...in other words, a "wash". So you are just as good off as you were, right?

Now take a look from a guy at Fish Point. He got an October 8th opener...he wanted October 1st...STRIKE ONE DNR! He used to drive 30 minutes to a buddies farm to hunt his creek on the Jan weekend...STRIKE TWO DNR! But oh yeah, he gained two days in December that he may not have been able to hunt before...BALL ONE DNR! He's basically got a wash as well...some strikes...some balls.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

just ducky said:


> Man I'm getting tired of saying this in response to so many posts....BIG PICTURE...BIG PICTURE...BIG PICTURE! You say you lost exactly what you gained...in other words, a "wash". So you are just as good off as you were, right?
> 
> Now take a look from a guy at Fish Point. He got an October 8th opener...he wanted October 1st...STRIKE ONE DNR! He used to drive 30 minutes to a buddies farm to hunt his creek on the Jan weekend...STRIKE TWO DNR! But oh yeah, he gained two days in December that he may not have been able to hunt before...BALL ONE DNR! He's basically got a wash as well...some strikes...some balls.


yeah it coulda been a lot worse for SW. if z3 got an earlier opener....that sir...woulda been screwing SW.

bellyup, i think your being very premature on how the z3 split plays out. best to just hunt it and we'll see. not much we can do...maybe the DNR doesn't even follow recommendation.


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## TSS Caddis

Bellyup said:


> Someone is going to be downriver when you pee in the river. It just feels like all rivers head south in Michigan.


Still, how do you know that the 6 days in December this year is not already done to benefit you? Do you fight till you take enough days away from everyone else to fit 100% of your need?

I remember JD and LB touting a Bay guide from the spring meeting that quit hunting Nov 15 due to lack of interest. Let's not talk about why the lack of interest, not relevant to my point. Well, the guys that lose interest after Nov 15, for whatever reason, lose 21 days. I bet they'd like to start earlier and not lose quite as many days.

No one suffers more than me. I'm forced to kill puddlers opening weekend.


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## anon2192012

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yeah it coulda been a lot worse for SW. if z3 got an earlier opener....that sir...woulda been screwing SW.
> 
> bellyup, i think your being very premature on how the z3 split plays out. best to just hunt it and we'll see. not much we can do...maybe the DNR doesn't even follow recommendation.


We can only hope.


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## anon2192012

JD, so if everyone feels they got screwed then why didn't we just leave it the same as previous years? No one could whine and complain and I for one know that I would be a lot happier with the Jan split than the Dec split. If they would have run the season straight through till the 11th you would not have heard a complaint out of me.


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## anon2192012

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> don't want to rub salt in the wounds...but I don't fall into your "all" description. Maybe i've become a tennis shoe hunter...


 
Dan, I know you've become a "tennis shoe" hunter....


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## Shiawassee_Kid

Huntermax-4 said:


> Dan, I know you've become a "tennis shoe" hunter....


hahah busted eh...damn.


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## just ducky

Huntermax-4 said:


> JD, so if everyone feels they got screwed then why didn't we just leave it the same as previous years? No one could whine and complain and I for one know that I would be a lot happier with the Jan split than the Dec split. If they would have run the season straight through till the 11th you would not have heard a complaint out of me.


You had to watch the meeting play out...the "chess match" if you will, because there really is strategy when making proposals. Sometimes it's just a matter of which order the proposals come up in. 

The first proposal for zone 3 was basically the same as we had last year, including the Jan weekend. I was shot down on the vote by one vote. Many CWAC members after the meeting said they had no choice, that their members wanted to explore a split other than the Jan weekend. So they did what their members wanted them to do...not their fault. 

The second proposal to be brought forward was the one that was approved. In the "discussion" portion, GoosemanRDK specifically talked about a split around gun deer season, and some other ideas for an earlier split. Unfortunately though, the proposal was for something else. There was discussion from some of the SE Michigan big water CWAC members that they hated to lose the Jan weekend, but that the December weekend would be decent for them too. So lot's of discussion ensued, the vote was eventually taken, and it barely passed by one vote.

You just never know how it will play out. There really is a lot of discussion, and people trying to convince each other of their points. that committee could still be sitting there making proposals, and shooting them down. Plus, the members get briefed ahead of time what the general framework is that the DNR waterfowl workgroup proposed. So it's not a complete free for all, but has some limitations.


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## Bellyup

Caddis, I am not disagreeing with you, you asked me how I felt there was no compromise. I answered you. Stop lamenting on the fact. You have your answer. In my opinion there was a wash and SW did not change. We already had a season that ran into Dec 11. So how is this a compromise when it is a wash ? I am speaking specifically about zone 3 and SW MI. I know the bay folks would not want it later. I respect their thoughts too. But I am still going to fight for what I feel is the best for my section of hunting grounds. Same as they will fight it tooth and nail (as the kid pointed out) to not have it go that late into December. Same as you would fight days in November because of your layout hunting is best, or the UP guys want a split between the east and west, etc. They all fight for what is best for their region. It is not our fault the zone lines are skewed. 

And Just Ducky. I will be clear. We have CWAC members so that we don't have to attend those meetings. It is the process. Stop preaching that we all should attend. It is not the way it works. It is for pure entertainment if a citizen goes anyways. We talk to our reps and they present our ideas and fight for a fair outcome. Not you or I. I believe you have played that card an awful lot lately. Same as most are prolly sick of hearing me preach on hunting later into December.


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## Ferris_StateHunter

just ducky said:


> Plus, the members get briefed ahead of time what the general framework is that the DNR waterfowl workgroup proposed. So it's not a complete free for all, but has some limitations.



See this is where I see a problem. Now I can see why they do it, but it seems like having knowledge of what is on the table before hand leads to steering away from what the "citizens" really want.

After all its an avisory comittee and does not make policy, it should in fact make recommendations to what the people want, even if it does not line up with what the dnr will accept.

To me if everyone wanted a late split, but the dnr wanted an early split, then we should give them dates that support what the citizens want, not what the dnr will accept. 

There is nothing that states cwac has to match up with what the dnr is offering. 

For example,
If cwac comes up with seasons that the majority wants, and the dnr doesn't accept them, and participation drops, then maybe cwac has a leg to stand on the following year.

Now as it stands, if participation drops, the dnr just points to cwac and says "they recomended these dates" we just upheld them.

Frankly, who cares if what cwac proposes does not get upheld by by the dnr, it falls on them should numbers drop, maybe then they will listen to us a little more
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bellyup

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> See this is where I see a problem. Now I can see why they do it, but it seems like having knowledge of what is on the table before hand leads to steering away from what the "citizens" really want.
> 
> After all its an avisory comittee and does not make policy, it should in fact make recommendations to what the people want, even if it does not line up with what the dnr will accept.
> 
> To me if everyone wanted a late split, but the dnr wanted an early split, then we should give them dates that support what the citizens want, not what the dnr will accept.
> 
> There is nothing that states cwac has to match up with what the dnr is offering.
> 
> For example,
> If cwac comes up with seasons that the majority wants, and the dnr doesn't accept them, and participation drops, then maybe cwac has a leg to stand on the following year.
> 
> Now as it stands, if participation drops, the dnr just points to cwac and says "they recomended these dates" we just upheld them.
> 
> Frankly, who cares if what cwac proposes does not get upheld by by the dnr, it falls on them should numbers drop, maybe then they will listen to us a little more
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well said young man, well said. I could not agree more.


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## just ducky

Bellyup said:


> ...And Just Ducky. I will be clear. We have CWAC members so that we don't have to attend those meetings. It is the process. Stop preaching that we all should attend. It is not the way it works. It is for pure entertainment if a citizen goes anyways. We talk to our reps and they present our ideas and fight for a fair outcome. Not you or I. I believe you have played that card an awful lot lately. Same as most are prolly sick of hearing me preach on hunting later into December.


with all due respect, it's not entertainment...it's to be informed. I think we already had posts from first time CWAC observers...Mike L, Big R, and some others, and they have already said they learned a lot, and really wouldn't have had a clear understanding of how it works unless they attended. 

It's also a chance for you to voice your opinion if you differ from the rest of the people in your area. Yes you have a voice through your CWAC rep, but what if your CWAC rep, in doing his job as a CWAC rep, has the majority of his people wanting something you don't support? You as a member of the public have a right to your opinion, and you are allowed to voice it at CWAC during "public input". 

I get what you're saying bellyup...no issues from me. But I think you would be surprised to see it in action, just like Mike L and Big R. JMO.


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## Mike L

I'll echo what ducky has mentioned already. I did come away with a different attitude concerning the CWAC. What ferris says has merit.....but ! CWAC is only there as an advisory group representing there particular area's.
Years ago we took what the DNR gave us, at least now we have a voice and get to share the same info the DNR has......which there was a "LOT" of.

And being a person in the gallery I was issued the same info as every CWAC member. Mallard counts, breeding populations of all species etc etc. I even
voted on the first proposal.....but they didn't even give me a glance..
But hey I tried........lol

So it's not a perfect solution, but it's a whole lot better than we used to have and getting better all of the time. Reading between the lines and listening to DNR personnel ? IMO...I think we may very well see some changes in Sag bay next year. No facts boys just my opinion.........


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## TSS Caddis

Loaded question but if CWAC makes a proposal that goes away from the outlined dates they were given, what happens?

Would the DNR consider them, or would they say, "well, you didn't pick anything close to the options we gave you so we are picking X option"?


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## LoBrass

TSS Caddis said:


> Loaded question but if CWAC makes a proposal that goes away from the outlined dates they were given, what happens?
> 
> Would the DNR consider them, or would they say, "well, you didn't pick anything close to the options we gave you so we are picking X option"?


Well, I had an answer/explanation for you and Ferris typed out. Took 25 minutes to type and I had examples from the meeting. I lost my laptop connection and lost the entire FREAKIN' POST!!!:rant:

I'll try again from the home connection later. To tired to start again now. Need to get home.


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## LoBrass

Let's try again.

If one reads RRoO one of the first things you will read is that a good committee communicates often. This really didn't happen in the past so the first thing I wanted to do was contact every committee member to give them a direction that I felt I'd like to take the committee. In addition to talking to the CWAC reps I also talked to the WWG and anybody that tried to contact me plus some that I just wanted to contact because I knew they had insight that I trusted. This, of course, is in addition to my constituancy, Waterfowl USA. As chairman I also need to try to stay somewhat impartial. Clearly this isn't always possible (nor should it be) but as I've said many times before, I just want to get it right.

Getting it right is only going to happen if we have a well educated committee. We also need to be productive and to be productive we have to understand the issues and what we can potentially do with those issues. Conversations were often lengthy and many guys told me how they felt-PERFECT!! What this did was helped me identify where we needed to work and what our major concerns were going to be. There were options that I discussed with some guys that I just knew were going to never fly at the meeting. This information helped me in future conversations and no doubt it saved us headaches at the meeting. I was also able to guide some guys to contact others to discuss where they felt they needed to be as regions. All this leg work reduced the contentious atmosphere at the actual meeting. 

~~~~~~~~~~~

An example: When I contacted James Bias he gave me what he felt was a good compromise for the UP (he was the EUP at large rep). He had pushed the later opener in the UP last year and I think he and others knew this was not entirely popular and was ready to compromise. He suggested a Sept. 24-25 opener and then reopen on Oct. 1 and run to Nov. 27. Personally, I thought this was good for several reasons. First, it opened early. This was going to be a necessary element if we were going to hunt as much of October as possible (something many of us felt was important). Second, it got us later into November for the bigger water guys. Next, the dates hunted all of the Thanksgiving weekend (something that EVERYONE I talked to wanted) and finally it was the brainchild of a Yooper!! After this conversation I began to relay this proposal to everyone I talked to and then in e-mails that I sent out. It was popular and I felt it would fly if possible. 

The trouble was Barb Avers and Dave Luukkenon had not returned from the Flyway Meetings and had not met with the WWG to discuss their options. Now, I was asked what I had heard thus far from the CWAC reps and if I would e-mail those options that were most popular. I did so. When the meeting with the SE regional guys took place at Cabela's the week before the meeting the proposal I'd James Bias suggested was not on the list. The WWG didn't like the ideas of an early split for several reasons. Goose was going on up there, it may inhibit travel by downstaters and they may miss early migrant ducks. OK.

When at the meeting the options which the WWG came up with were displayed. We then opened up with a discussion period to try to work out the committees concerns. The WWG #1 option was Sept. 24-Nov 20 and Nov. 26-27. Everyone who wanted stated their concerns with these dates and just prior to the point where I felt we were going to get a motion I brought up the fact that every single individual I heard from through phone or e-mail wanted to be open the entire Thanksgiving weekend. The UP reps concured. So we looked at the wants of the WWG and decided to stop on the Friday before the first weekend of gun deer season and shift those days to the 24-25. This then made the season Sept. 24-Nov. 18 and Nov. 24-27. Each UP rep and the WWG was OK with this and a motion was made. It passed unanimously.

The WWG guides us with their options and we then work into our recommendations. Believe me, they hold the cards but they also want us to give our opinions and help with the final dates. Sometimes we role right into their recommendations and other times we tweek their recommendations. The bottom line is that we are working together far more than we have in the past and it starts far before the actual meeting-as a good committee should.

~~~~~~~~~~~

IF I WANTED a committee to recognize how I felt about something I would follow these steps. I would contact both verbally and through e-mail every WWG member and CWAC rep. It will take multiple calls to each but I'd keep trying until I contacted everyone possible. Give good reasons and be pursuasive and passionate about how you feel. Then I would attend the meeting to voice my concerns once again. Trust me, if every single person around that table knows who you are and has heard your concerns they will understand your wants and you would very likely get some positive results. I know that route would work, that's what I did.


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## anon12162011

just ducky said:


> with all due respect, it's not entertainment...it's to be informed. I think we already had posts from first time CWAC observers...Mike L, Big R, and some others, and they have already said they learned a lot, and really wouldn't have had a clear understanding of how it works unless they attended.
> 
> It's also a chance for you to voice your opinion if you differ from the rest of the people in your area. Yes you have a voice through your CWAC rep, but what if your CWAC rep, in doing his job as a CWAC rep, has the majority of his people wanting something you don't support? You as a member of the public have a right to your opinion, and you are allowed to voice it at CWAC during "public input".
> 
> I get what you're saying bellyup...no issues from me. But I think you would be surprised to see it in action, just like Mike L and Big R. JMO.


 
JD, I have been to 2 fall meetings and 2 springs meetings...this was NOT my first time attending and actually I never said a single time about how amazed I was or that it was my first time. I think I said to the contrary, that it was the 4th time I had attended.


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## just ducky

BigR said:


> JD, I have been to 2 fall meetings and 2 springs meetings...this was NOT my first time attending and actually I never said a single time about how amazed I was or that it was my first time. I think I said to the contrary, that it was the 4th time I had attended.


I stand corrected. It was Mike L. and someone???? Sorry bout that R!


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## Blacklab77

JD it was my first, An I did gain a better understanding.


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## cadillacjethro

A sincere thank-you for all your efforts!!


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