# Turkey vs. Deer management



## Hemingway (Mar 21, 2002)

Hey all,

Just had a thought in my mind and, since I enjoying talking the outdoors, thought I'd see what you all think.

I've had the good fortune to hunt a lot of states for turkeys and Michigan is definitely a tremendous state for turkeys. I've had some notables in the field that I've hunted with say the same thing (Rob Keck, Will Primos, etc.)

Why do you think Michigan's turkey hunting is so good and the deer hunting seems to always be a point of controversy?

My theory is this: Turkey hunting is fairly new to us. Sure, we had permits decades ago but it's only been the last, say, 10-15 years or so that the turkey boom really hit. My personal belief is that because of this we have "new science" in place. The managers of the resource have learned from other states with long experience what it takes to make this work. Now we have really good hunting opportunities on public land which I feel is the real baromoter of how good hunting in the state is. Of course, we have some bumps along the way and I understand numbers may be down in the traditional hot areas of the north. But that's not necessarily a management issue so much as a weather/predator issue.

But I think our DNR really has done a terrific job with turkeys because they never learned any "bad" habits as they have with deer. We're struggling with the deer issue because there's a clash between the "traditional" management theory and the new ideas like QDM, urban deer issues, etc. 

What do you think? Sometimes we bash the DNR so much, it's kind of nice to say, hey, they've done a great job with this.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

The turkey hunting in this state will soon be second to none, phenomenal job! Not to mention some of the other species they do a great job on, bear hunting is very good, the only huntable herd of elk east of the Mississippi (that has a large number of B&C class animals).

It makes you wonder, doesn't it? 

I think if the game managers and biologists were left alone to do their job, without any outside influence, the deer herd would be managed the same way as the turkey flock, bear population, or elk herd. The current system and regulations would have been changed long ago. It would be in much better shape than it is now.

Too many chiefs and not enough indians. 

When it comes to the deer herd in Michigan, hunters fight the DNR every step of the way when the word CHANGE is mentioned. 

The DNR has, at times, been their own worst enemy and have lost credibility with many hunters, but I believe they turned over a new leaf. The new department head, Rod Clute, had told it like it is, he hasn't tried to sugar coat the DNR's intentions and seems to be doing a better job of communicating than his predecessors.

One can hope.


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## Hemingway (Mar 21, 2002)

Hey Ghost,

Great points and I agree. Communication has been much better on the turkey end than the deer end. But -- let's hope -- times are changing. I know I've been personally involved with some of the decisions, meetings, etc. that have been done with the turkey program and the DNR has been very willing to listen to what the people are saying. Al Stewart is a flat-out great guy who really listens to us. I would dare say you could call him anytime and he'd be cordial, helpful and willing to listen. That's not always the case with DNR heads. And I agree that hunters are a key player in the deer problem. We, too, need to adapt and understand that maybe things must change to get better. Of course, it's scary. Change always is. But we can have so much more in my opinion.

Thanks for the thoughts.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I think the very large number of people feeding Turkeys on private land have a great deal to do with the tremendous number of Turkeys. The flocks sure don't have to expend a lot of energy looking for a meal.


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

Excelent post .
I really had not given this much thought untill you brought it up and I think you are right on with this.


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## Tony H. (Feb 6, 2003)

Don't want to jump the gun on this one so what area, ESOX, are you talking about people feeding the turkeys? Do you mean intentionally feeding lots of birds or is it just a matter of turkeys invading bird feeders, etc. Because if there is large-scale feeding going on it should be stopped. That's not good for the birds in most areas and it's not necessary except in extreme situations. And even then there's always the debate: If you have to feed the birds to get them through the winters, were they meant to be there in the first place? I'm not sure where I stand on that one but it is something to think about I suppose.

But I'm not trying to chew your a## here. Not at all. Just looking for a little more specific info to think about.


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

The turkeys of northern Michigan are north of the historic range[ Muskegon to Bay City]. They do not have the luxury of having farm fields to get left over grain from like turkeys in the southern part of the state. There fore if they aren't fed during periods of deep snow and cold they are dead. Remember that the northern part of the state is where the reintroduction of turkeys really got started as the Allegan birds were not a good strain of turkeys.This fact is why the Michigan Wild Turkey Hunters Assn. was formed with one of their main goals being raising money to buy corn to feed the turkeys of the north thru the hard winters. the north is where a lot of turkey hunters got their start.


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## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

Anyone ever heard of newcastle diseases in poulty? This could very well happen with turkeys I believe. If they can't survive we're doing the same thing as artifically inflating the turkeys as we did with deer. If they can't survive the winters then survivual of the fittest. I personally have stop feeding them. My 2.....marty


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

I shot my first Michigan wild turkey in 1976 and we had the bird for our bi-centenial Thanksgiving. As with most wildlife it took years of slow population growth with strategic plantings genetic selections plus natural expansion to reach the 'critical mass'. Then, the population exploded with some luck with the mild winters. The UP, northern MI, and southern MI are all different climates and habitats, but overall Michigan will be a great state for turkey hunting. In my West Michigan the turkeys are almost to the 'goose nuciance' stage because of urban sprawl and limited access to hunting.

Some differences between deer and turkey management are obvious. I remember when we were only allowed one buck per year. We still take only one tom turkey per year. If we shot up the turkey flock taking two toms and unlimited hens I can bet we could turn turkey management into a lively controversy as we did with deer management. And that is without the added controversy of some sort of "QTM" taking only 2-1/2 year old toms or bigger. We should just enjoy the great turkey hunting we have as long as possible.


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

pulled my first turkey permit in 1978... hunted the curtsville area and never say another turkey hunter.... hunted the same area last year never say another hunter... try that during the deer season..

even with the liberal regs in MI the hunters aren't there to make a stink... we have a great fall season but most guys focus on the spring... the group is to small to create a mess...

the turkey season isn't 3 plus months long either.... if they really wanted to fix deer hunting make each season (bow, gun, muzzloader) a week long.... that would take care of things.... but the money lost crippling... 

turkey are by far harder to hunt than deer but we only get a couple weeks a year to chase them and than only one turkey per season.... most deer hunters would have a cow if they would have to follow the same rules as turkey hunters... 

lets hope our numbers don't grow to much... do you really the problems with big crowds... just my two cents


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## Dawg (Jan 17, 2003)

Far fewer hunters. Far less "competition". Far less complaints.

BTW Dead Bird, this year my turkey season(s) will include 61 hunting days. If you were to designate 2/3 of these days archery only and another 1/6 black powder, then you would have a 'more' accurate comparison. Of course this is apples and oranges and not germaine to the subject at all.

"turkeys are far harder to hunt than deer..." a good poll topic.


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## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

Easier to kill a tom in my place than deer........marty


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## Rupestris (Aug 25, 2000)

Can I get directions to your place Marty?  

Rupe


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## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

Bring me a couple deer to trade  ...........marty


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I'm not debating with Marty about his turkeys, he's in a very good part of Alcona County, with a relatively mild climate there near the lake, and there are a lot of food plots and other agricultural crops in that area. Therefore, the turkeys (100, not 1000 or 10,000) do well in that particular part of Alcona County. 

But please don't think it's that way all over Alcona County, it isn't. Check with the DNR bio in that area, or any other turkey hunter in that part of northeastern MI. Alcona County's turkeys, like most other areas of northeastern lower Michigan, have been hard hit by the ban on feeding of deer, which has made many people stop feeding anything in that area for fear of being ticketed if a deer or two shows up...turkey numbers are off by as much as 50% in Alcona County, despite a number of relatively mild winters in a row, and an abundance of natural foods.

Those of you who say that if turkeys can't survive don't belong there, well, too bad the DNR didn't think of that 35 years ago, when they introduced us all to a sport we've all come to love, and aren't particularly willling to give up. We say that if turkeys can't survive they don't belong there, and in the next breath, we're screaming about our apparently low numbers of deer. Well, very high numbers of deer isn't natural, either. In fact, historically, there are entire stretches of the state that deer were never even present in until the human hand intervened. 

Someone who says this indicates to me that they either don't turkey hunt or have always had the luxury of hunting birds in areas that don't get winter. 

If you're planning on hunting Area J this spring, you may want to consider somewhere else if the present conditions continue more than another week or so. We have up to 4 ft. of snow in many areas, at least 2 ft. everywhere else, and so far, our wild turkey numbers are less than half what they were several years ago. We should have 15,000 over a five county area, so far, after 5 weeks of heavy snows, we've got about 7000...where the rest are, or if they're even out there, we don't know. We can't find them, despite the best efforts of hundreds of people on snowmobiles and snowshoes...

Perhaps those of you with "too many turkeys" would be kind enough to share them with some of the hunters of Area J. There's about 10,000 of them. I've got an idea that a whole lot of hunters who usually hunt somewhere on public land in northern MI will be hunting somewhere else this year.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Linda G, please do not take this the wrong way, but don't you question the DNR's deer population estimates? Most of the time saying they are absolutely wrong at every opportunity, you have done this on other websites and even in your articles for various of publications

Why are you so quick to believe the DNR's turkey population estimates and not the deer population estimates?

Maybe your not the Linda G. I am thinking of, or I may be getting the wrong impression.........?


This is just my opinion, I believe if the turkey numbers are down 50% because of the deer feeding ban, wouldn't that suggest that the turkey population is where it should be under naturally occurring conditions? Therefore reaching a sustainable capacity?

It may not make the hunters happy, but the turkeys that have survived are probably the most adapted to the current conditions, even though the population is lower it is better for the flock as a whole.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Swampghost-I'm not sure what you're referring to when it comes to my comments and deer and the DNR, but as far as wild turkey population estimates, what I just told you isn't from the DNR-that's from all the members of the MWTHA and many many private landowners across my area who we provide feed to for the turkeys they feed every winter. We count the birds every winter, every single one we can find, then provide those numbers to the DNR. They've used our counts for years, until last year when they took our counts, then added about 8000 to that number out of thin air. They actually said that there was 11,000 wild turkeys in Charlevoix County alone. Call them right now and they'll tell you they haven't got the final count yet, but it does appear that wild turkeys are down in many areas of northern Michigan. And head up to Charlevoix County and see how many turkeys you can find. 

We've been talking to the DNR about the low numbers, but haven't actually provided them with our final tally sheets as yet, the deadline is usually February 1, but they gave us a few extra weeks this year to try to find the birds.

There's no such thing as naturally occurring conditions or a natural sustainable capacity in a normal northwestern lower MI winter, without feeding during a normal winter up here, they die. 


As for deer, there's still a huntable population of deer imo in most of northwestern lower MI, but numbers are down...and over on the east side, it's awful...it's a rare thing to see a deer over there. So yes, you have the right Linda G., I do question the DNR-a lot, but I don't think I've ever said at every opportunity that they are absolutely wrong.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

The fact is, there is practically no "carrying capacity" for Turkeys north of Clare without supplemental feeding. I sure would hate to see supplemental feeding stopped. Turkeys have been over "carrying capacity" for decades. You don't see the stripping of the woods you see with a Deer herd over carrying capacity.
Without supplemental feeding, Turkey hunting would be restricted to the southern LP. I'd sure hate to see that.


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

This article is from Linda's neighborhood. Linda has a real challenge. Thanks Linda for your dedication. 

Snowfall eclipses expected amounts 
http://www.record-eagle.com/2003/feb/11snowy.htm

TRAVERSE CITY - Before this winter blasted into northern Michigan - bringing 90 inches of snow so far - forecasters suspected that this season might be warmer and drier than normal.

"Long range, there was the potential for a weak El Nino," said National Weather Service meteorologist Scott Rozanski. "It doesn't look like that panned out."

So far this year, 90 inches of snow has fallen. Last winter's total snowfall in Traverse City was 121 inches and the season before that, the area received 100 inches of snow.

The Grand Traverse region received four to six inches of snow Sunday night and Monday and more snow and cold temperatures are expected throughout the week.

For Grand Traverse County, Rozanski said high temperatures are expected to be in the teens and low-20s and low temperatures will be in the single digits with snow showers throughout the week.

Rozanski said a winter storm watch is in effect for Leelanau, Benzie and Antrim counties today and tonight and eight to 10 inches of snow can be expected.


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## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

Linda is a outstanding asset to the hunting community. Hands down. Now my two on turkeys. If we feed them aren't we artifically inflating the flock? Maybe should be strong survive now when you hear others say that's what happen to the deer herd. Now I guess there's a poultry disease called newcastle. It comes from feces from birds. To me a feeding station would add to this threat. My two......marty


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Trout, I sincerely hope I have not done anything to upset you. I consider you a friend, although we've never met personally, and I have a great deal of respect for you. I do hope to someday get to know you one on one-it would be an honor.

Splitshot-thank you for the kind comments, it's nice to know, especially as a female outdoor writer, that you do have friends out there who there who think maybe you do know a little bit about what you are talking about. 

Ed-THANK YOU for your last post-you put the entire situation into a nutshell very nicely.

And Tony-I'm sorry if I've sounded a bit defensive, frankly, I am. I have usually been responding to your posts either right after I've come in from another day of trying to walk through, literally, almost waist deep snow drifts, useless to do even with snowshoes, hauling hundreds of pounds of corn and grit, to trapped birds. The ones I can find, that is. And most of the time I do that all alone-it is a rare day when I get a call from other people who turkey hunt offering to help-but come opening day, they'll all be knocking on the door...or I am responding to your posts after another 6-8 hours of staring at this computer monitor...

For the record, Tony, feeding programs have been going on for MI's northern birds ever since the first turkey came out of the box up here, back in 1968 in Baldwin. 

I'm very proud of our turkey program here in MI, too. You have to remember that MI got the reputation it did as one of the best turkey hunting states in the nation from its northern birds-really, the populations in southern MI only really got started within the last 10 years. I'm thrilled, personally, that the birds have done so well down there down there-frankly, it's taken a lot of hunting pressure off of us, and this year, I expect there will be even less pressure up here. But our turkey programs aren't perfect-as more and more hunters enter the woods every spring at the same time in the same area, we're losing the quality of the hunt. Nor does the DNR deserve all the credit for what we've got. There's a whole lot of little old ladies, farmers, and private landowners who have never hunted anything a day in their lives that deserve much of that credit up here. 

And yes, I expect that if turkey hunting were to get as popular as deer hunting is, there would be a whole lot more issues we'd all be trying to deal with.


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## Tony H. (Feb 6, 2003)

Linda it's not that you sound defensive. It's that you sound selfish.

I'm sorry but it's the way I read things that you're writing here (maybe you do have a "style").

So many times the comments are "it will take hunters away from here", the "pressure won't be here", "the southern flock", "folks from here deserve credit", etc.

To me, and the rest of the people I know including thousands of National Wild Turkey Federation volunteers in this state, it's not a North/South issue. It's a Michigan issue. That's why the money raised at events is put into a state superfund and distributed accordingly. It's not a north/south issue. 

But whatever.
The thread has now gone way off topic and let's talk about something else.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Tony H.,
??? You think Linda sounds selfish ? The carrying capacity of Northern Mi. for turkeys is zero. If you want to enjoy watching and hunting turkeys up there, some very dedicated people have to do the grunt work. The rest of us can donate to the cause if we believe that it is worthwhile.

Linda, 
I have never hunted for turkeys up north, but I applaud you, the other individuals and the orginaztions that make this possible.

L & O


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Thanks, L& O, that's not the first time I've been accused of being selfish...if I were selfish in my motives, I would only feed the birds I hunt...but the birds I'm feeding, many of which move to public land in the springtime, belong to every hunter in Michigan, no matter where they're from. That's the same scenario for all of us who feed the turkeys up here. 

Much of this opposition and hostility can all be traced back to the MWTHA's separation from the National Wild Turkey Federation about 5 years ago, I think it was. After years of trying to work together, it became obvious that the N*** was never going to understand our northern situation or point of view, and three chapters of the N*** had their charters revoked for not having fundraising banquets, a requirement of a N*** chapter, and sending the money to them. 

Instead, we had workshops, and took "donations" instead of memberships, and kept the money to feed our turkeys up here-some $50k a year, a subtantial amount. We were not in compliance with the rules of the N***. So we were thrown out. 

We have continued to care for our wild turkeys, imo, through the organization we created, much to the N***'s surprise, and since then, they've had problems creating chapters of N*** up here, although they have started a few that we have asked to help us with the feeding (some have and do when they could afford it, but most haven't got the money to help very much, they send it all to South Carolina) and ever since then, whenever I start talking about our feeding programs, I run into arguments from every member of a southern chapter of M*** that are just like Tony's...it appears to be a common mantra taught to all southern MI N*** members. Some believe it, some have questions. I applaud those of you who have questions. 

Ok, tear me apart for saying that, and I'm sure my buddy Hemingway will be here any minute... but that's the godgiven truth, there's hundreds of people up here that will back me up on that...


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Trout-I finally got to my sent box, and killed all of those, so it should be back on, but Steve's been able to get hold of me via pm before tonight, so I'm not sure that the problem is that my box was full...it's been weird for a while...

BTW-I have every reason to believe that your area will have a fall season this year, at the rate we're going, there will only be fall hunting in the southern lower, the Thumb, and maybe in the banana belt of the UP this year. I'll have to bring our turkey dog down there and show you how much fun that is...


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## dfd189 (Jan 15, 2003)

Linda, if feeding birds helps keep the population of turkeys in portions of the NLP huntable, isn't that a clear indication that you are fighting a losing battle? It's an artificially sustained population, sad but true. It's really unfortunate, but how many turkeys have frozen to death this year with a crop and belly full of corn?

There is a much larger problem with portions of the NLP turkey population, feeding programs are just a band-aid on an arterial bleed.

My opinion............


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Yes, we've thought of that, but it's not a losing battle unless you give up the battle. We haven't given up, and we won't. I got asked that question for the first time in 1994 by an outdoor writer, and I said the same thing to him. As long as we have turkeys here we'll keep trying. I'm not ever going to turn my back on them. 

I've never heard of turkeys freezing to death that were in good shape and had access to ready supplies of food-birds that are underweight, undernourished, weakened or injured are the birds that die. I watched a flock once for 7 straight weeks during the winter of 94 that sat out pretty much in the open, in a small group of apple trees inbetween two large fields of 100+ acres, with the wind blowing constantly, and the temperature didn't go above zero-seven straight weeks-that was also 1994. They didn't look very happy, and they spent most of that seven weeks shifting from one foot to another, or hiding their heads under their wings (except for the birds that stood sentry), except when they were feeding from the corn barrel, that we also had mixed a medium grit into, as the snow was more than 3 feet deep that year, and there was no bare ground anywhere, even on the road edges for grit. None of those birds died.

The next spring I took a photo of a gobbler in that same spot in full strut-it made Wing & Shot magazine, that I was writing for at the time.


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## dfd189 (Jan 15, 2003)

But I have to agree with Tony, maybe selfish isn't or wasn't the right terminology ( I am in no way speaking for Tony H.), but Linda does have a way of isolating herself and her cause, with her own terminology, ie., "it will take hunters away from here", the "pressure won't be here", "the southern flock", "folks from here deserve credit", etc.

It definitely polarizes the issue.............


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I can't help but do that, because the difference between southern and northern MI is like night and day, dfd...climately and food availability-wise. Also, until a couple of years ago, hunter-wise. Now there's more hunters in southern MI than northern, or so we're told. Would you prefer I use zones, like the DNR does? Zone 1, Zone 2, Zone 3...there IS a difference.

If I talked about the feeding program and never mentioned where, people might assume I meant in southern MI, which in a winter like you have now, there's absolutely no call for, and then people REALLY wouldn't understand...

folks from here means the people living during the winters in the parts of northern MI that we conduct feeding programs in who take corn from us and feed the birds.

Southern flocks-have you ever compared a southern MI turkey to a northern MI turkey? There IS a difference-southern MI birds are much larger...because they have more access to a ready and available supply of food year around, and the weather is just plain warmer year around. Like trees, they grow bigger and faster. 

and yes, in the last few years, more hunters have turned to southern MI to hunt, and that HAS taken the pressure off northern MI-

what's wrong with that?


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## dfd189 (Jan 15, 2003)

It is about perspective Linda, your perspective is that So. MI hunters rarely hunt outside So. MI, couldn't be further from the truth, just as many NLP residents hunt in So. Mi for all game as does So. Mi residents heading North to hunt.

I believe it's winter in So. Mi too, the coldest stretch of winter we have had in a long time.

You answered your own question, by the following statement, "Southern flocks-have you ever compared a southern MI turkey to a northern MI turkey? There IS a difference-southern MI birds are much larger...because they have more access to a ready and available supply of food year around, and the weather is just plain warmer year around. Like trees, they grow bigger and faster"

Please don't take this as confrontational but areas are better able to support certain species populations and others aren't. Call it a mistake by the DNR, if you want, but the fact is by artifically supporting a flock of turkeys you are making worse for them when times get really tough, the turkey population is higher in some areas because of this artifical feeding and because of it is above the habitat's sustainable level.

I know your passionate about the feeding program and I applaude your efforts, but at the same time I can't help but think what your doing is not wrong, but very,very unnatural.

It is not uncommon for turkey flocks to have a 45% turnover during winter and many state agencies state that some of the greatest threats to turkey populations are feeding and over-protection by humans, activities that encourage artificially high concentrations of birds, they also sate that humans can best help turkey populations survive by establishing natural food areas near escape cover and by protecting existing habitat.

Nature is not always kind to it's creatures.


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## dfd189 (Jan 15, 2003)

Are there any states that have a state run or supported winter feeding program? If so, what are their winter mortality rates?

What is the winter mortality rate in MI? In other states?


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

DFD-I really have to get going, I did have two articles to write tonight, Friday's my deadline day, so I will suggest that you please re-read some of my other posts in this thread...and c'mon, my perspective IS NOT that southern MI turkey hunters rarely hunt anywhere other than southern MI, how could I think that when there's thousands and thousands of turkey hunters all over northern Michigan every spring?? Most of them on public land?

How could I think that when most of the people I hunt with every spring are friends of mine from southern MI? Battle Creek, Milford, Oxford, Lake Orion, to name a few places they come from. 

In fact, until just a couple of years ago, my perspective was quite the opposite...most of the people who came UP HERE to hunt were from southern MI, but as I said, like two posts back, that appears to be changing IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, with the Unit ZZ hunt, more southern MI hunters are staying in southern MI...according to Al Stewart, there will be more than 85,000 spring turkey hunters in southern MI this spring.

we can handle a 45% turnover, and we often have, as long as it turns over...it's not...it's steadily rising...due to predation and rotten spring weather for nesting...and without winter feeding in northern MI, the turnover would be 100% in a winter where the snow is more than two feet deep for more than 4-5 weeks. 


And yes, it may be unnatural, but bringing them up here in the first place was, too. The DNR and the N*** knew that then. They walked away. The people who learned to love hunting them here didn't.

Just saw your other post-a number of northern tier states have winter survival feeding programs, including Utah, where I spent a couple of days with their winter technician, whose only job was to drive around the state filling and checking on feeders. Email me and I'll send you a photo of their feeders-giant chicken feeders, they look like houses. You'll also find supplementary feeding programs being done by state game agencies in Wyoming, Washington, Montana, and Idaho. 

Yes, I know it's cold down there, but cold won't kill them-deep snow, which they can't walk through, or dig through to the ground for food, kills them.

Winter mortality-good question. Ask the DNR, and you'll get something vague, like "10-20%"...ask them for documentation, and send it to me if you get any...then there is the question-do you want to know the average winter mortality for a certain area or for the whole state? They haven't done any studies, so they don't know. But they should-a full-time researcher or even a study by a graduate student has been needed on this subject for many, many years, but so far, I haven't seen any at all...check the minutes of the most recent NRC meeting, last week, and see what Rick Riley said in his presentation to the NRC-he asked for a study on winter mortality...that's the third or 4th time this has been asked for.

There may be winter mortality studies in other states, I don't know, I've never had the time to look into it, but remember, climates are different everywhere you go, and there's lots of other variables, too. Apples to oranges, often... 

Good night.


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## dfd189 (Jan 15, 2003)

If that is indeed the case, steadily rising turnover, couldn't that be negated by adjusting the amount of alloted permits for the area?

You have also struck on a key issue, increase of predators! We have to bring these populations way down from current numbers. As for spring rains, they come when you don't need them and are non-existent when you do!  Habitat is another issue, much much, more could be done by the state and federal governments.

It is a really unfortunate situation up there. One with no easy solutions too.....


Linda, if you have taken offense to anything I have said please accept my apologies, it was never my intention.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

No offense taken, dfd, I'm used to it, believe me. 

Spring rains-hah-it snowed up here last spring until mid-May...I have photos of me and my southern MI buddy trying to call in a big group of gobbling toms in a snowstorm, photo taken 5/26.

Adjusting the permits might help, you shouldn't hunt a declining population, but since we only hunt toms in the spring that's not a major issue, and this spring we'll have a ton of tags out there because we haven't been able to convince the DNR of our declining numbers until, believe it or not, last week. Spring tags numbers are based on winter counts FROM THE YEAR BEFORE.

And like I said a few posts back, those weren't accurate.

Predators-yes, the reason I started learning how to trap 4 years ago, we cleaned up on possums, fox, and **** this year, but not much luck with coyote-they're smarter than us...and they won't let us trap owls...

Turkeys do very, very well up here 3 seasons of the year in reasonable, normal weather, and in the winter, again, habitat doesn't matter when it's all under 2ft. plus of snow...

ok, enough!!


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## Tony H. (Feb 6, 2003)

Here's the deal,

I'm not calling Linda -- as a person -- selfish. Not at all. I'm saying the north vs. south mentality is selfish. And it goes the same way for guys from down here that don't give a lick about the northern issues either. I don't accept that either. It's a fine line and I didn't cross it. It's not personal. For crying out loud, there has been plenty insinuated about me -- personally -- and I'm not crying. There have been comments like "I'm not standing up for Tony H. in any way" As if to say my morals are so corrupt? You don't know me. You don't know my values. You may be more wrong about me than you can even imagine. Or maybe you're not. But there are thousands of turkey hunters in this state who feel as I do about things.

It's not about north vs. south. These are all our birds. That's what I'm trying to say. And I've already said I'm not against feeding when it's vital for survival. If anyone there knew who I am and what I do, you'd never doubt my complete devotion to Michigan's wild turkey program. Unlike so many, I don't just talk about making things better. I've spent more money than I should. I've spent a ton of hours working for the wild turkey. I have even spent money to feed the birds in N. Michigan. I would bet Linda has probably filled a feeder or two that was built in my shop. Surprised? Shocked? You shouldn't be.

Linda is right (see I'm not trying to smash and bash) cold doesn't affect the birds much. Snow depth does. That's why habitat improvement is vital. It's not an overnight solution but it's a long-term goal and that's absolutely what THE National Wild Turkey Federation is in favor of. They haven't turned their back on us -- in any region.

I have not taken personal offense at anything written because I assume nothing is meant to be taken as such.

But I do take personal offense at any false claim about the work the Federation does. Yes, the money goes to S. Carolina. Then it comes back to us. Almost all of it. If anyone needs the dollar amounts, they can be provided. But there's also something called the Superfund. And that's used nationally and I think it's right. Are we so self-serving that we refuse to allow others to enjoy the same opportunities to hunt spring turkeys as we do? There are no people in places like South Dakota, Wyoming, etc. How would they ever fund restoration if we all didn't chip in?

Look, I just don't want people painting me in the wrong way. I'm not a jerk. I'm not a bad guy. I like to think that those who know me would say I'm nothing but devoted to our outdoors. I would hope they would also say I'm a pretty stand-up guy who doesn't try to offend others. Maybe that doesn't come off as such here but I would bet Linda and I have some of the same friends and maybe others of you out there as well.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Tony-I agree, habitat improvement is vital. We continue to do everything we can with habitat improvement, but we just haven't found any answers to that deep snow. 

Superfund monies are wonderful and can be used for lots of habitat improvement, but we couldn't use any Superfund monies, because they won't allow that fund to be used for artificial feeding. We could use it for seed to grow corn, which the deer ate, and more of those apple trees I talked about, but, well, we never used any superfund monies (at least my chapter) anyway, because we never had banquets-so we never qualified for it....you asked, so here goes...how much cash in hand do you get back from your fundraising banquets, and do you have the freedom to use it as you see fit?

I do know that a couple of years ago, when things were looking pretty bad for southern MI with all that deep snow you got in December, the Huron River chapter of N*** was planning on a separate winter feeding banquet that they could keep the money from in case they needed to feed, and I understand there's a chapter in Mt. Pleasant that does the same thing. But how much cash in hand do you get back to use as you see fit, for whatever you need it for, including feeding if needed, from your regular fundraising banquets?

I doubt I've ever used any feed barrels built in your shop-we just cut holes in ours, and we get them from a honey supplier, but I do know about the barrels you're talking about. Very nice, but we use hundreds of barrels, we need them to be as light as possible, and we just give them to anyone who needs one. We ask folks to build elevated platforms to keep the barrels up and away from the deer-if folks can't afford that, or aren't physically able to do it, we have a couple of lumber yards that will donate the materials, and we build the platforms. We have to keep them up anyway, to keep them above snow levels of 2-3 ft. 

I do wish the N*** agreed with you that all of MI's birds are "our" birds...the door is open anytime to work with us, but all we hear about is attempts to start chapters up here that will have fundraising banquets to raise money from a limited resource up here (unsuspecting residents who think they are helping to support the feeding programs).

I'm going to turn off the pc now, I swear I am...

.


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## dfd189 (Jan 15, 2003)

Tony, I said I wasn't speaking for you, just like I wouldn't anyone speaking for me. We are all intelligent people who can speak for ourselves and participate in intelligent debate. Which is what has occurred up to this point and I anticipate that is the way it will stay. I have no reason to think otherwise...............

Seem like a great guy to me, passionate about what you say and do, nothing wrong with that at all. Same goes for Linda, LOL! I don't want her to get mad at me!


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## Tony H. (Feb 6, 2003)

Okay Linda and all those looking for the truth about THE National Wild Turkey Federation funds.

This is fact. It is not a spin. It is not fabrication as other groups insist on doing.

In 2002, $271,207.54 was contributed for the Michigan State Chapter Superfund. Every cent is spent on Michigan projects with 53 percent going to habitat (the ONLY way to have sustainable, healthy flocks), 12% to youth/woomen, handicapped programs, 10% to education most of that coming in the form of teacher education boxes for use in schools, 7% to pro-hunting events, causes, etc. and the remaining 14% is sort of wild money that helps fill in gaps when needed. It's all spent here in Michigan. Every. Single. Cent. That amount is all available money after paying for the banquets and sending the percentage to national.

That money comes from the Superfund banquets. Of course, more money was actually raised at the events. But you have to pay for the banquets (food, beverages, hall rentals, etc.) and you need to pay for the prizes, raffles, artwork, etc. that gets people to the shows in the first place. How much does the national headquarters get? They get 15%. Why? Because you need tsomeone to organize events and chapters this large. That pays for state regional director salaries, national directors, biologists, lobbyists, etc. These are the guys who are on the streets, organizing events, talking to legislators, etc. If you like the increased hunting options and flexibilities then thank your NWTF Regional Directors. We also have an outstanding magazine that provides information, entertainment, etc. That's important as well.

So there you have it. 85 percent of all money raised here stays here. And to get right down to it, that 15 percent that goes to national also directly impacts Michigan as well. That's a quarter of a million each year for Michigan's wild turkeys. All of them.

To state that the Federation has turned its back on the northern birds is nothing other than pure falsehood be it misguided, mean-spirited or otherwise.

Almost forgot the other qustion about how much he get for feeding. I don't know. Frankly, we don't worry about feeding. We're all about viable, responsible wild turkey management. And a full-scale feeding plan just doesn't fit that mold. Feeding programs can help sustain populations and should be used only as a last resort. But when you feed year after year after year, you're not helping those birds learn to survive. You're doing exactly the opposite. And maybe that's hard for some to believe. But it's old science. Started about the same time people were believing wild turkeys could survive only in large, heavily-wooded areas. . .


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## Hawker (Jan 6, 2003)

I'm new to turkey hunting. Some might have become turned off by how hotly positions have been debated on this thread, but I am glad for it. I have learned a tremendous amount about turkey management in Michigan by reading these posts.

For people who are philosophically opposed, there can be no compromise, only persuasion. These two groups of wild turkey enthusiasts can draw on the people they have persuaded to their viewpoint and use the funds raised to promote turkeys as they see fit. That's the American way and I love to see it in action!


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