# German Shorthair Pointer breeders



## aab751977 (Dec 2, 2013)

I have starting investigating breeders for a future GSP. I don't need a pup immediately, but want to select the breeder in the short term so I can get on a waiting list. Currently, I have a female GSP from Blue Briar Kennels which has been a great dog for me. The dog has some crosswind kennel genetics. She is 7 and I just want to fill the pipeline before she gets to old. I spend most of my time pheasant hunting in Michigan, but I do go to a preserve occasionally. My dogs are family dogs and hunting dogs. They split time in the house and in the kennel. I also want a dog on the smaller end of the size scale...no horses please

I am looking for any feedback you can provide on the following breeders and if you have dogs from them what breeding do you have: 


1. Crosswind Kennel: I know they are highly recommended and have great dogs, but they have a lot of double breedings and I have some concerns around that. Am I overly concerned about this or do you have any experience with issues that resulted from to much breeding in the same lines? 

2. Black Point Dog Kennel. Came highly recommended to me from a friend and also from several local dog trainers. Any experience with their dogs would be helpful?

3. Monkeyshine Kennel: Another great breeder, but seem to do a lot of training on horse back and I am not certain that is the right dog for me unless it transitions to a foot hunter easily.

4. Cedar Creek Gun Dogs in Iowa: Came Highly recommended from a friend as well. That is a long way to go for a dog, but would make the drive if its worth it


Thanks for the feedback on these breeders.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

What is your definition for double breedings.
(Doublebred)?


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## aab751977 (Dec 2, 2013)

birdhntr said:


> What is your definition for double breedings.
> (Doublebred)?


Sire and Dam from the same breedings or even the same litters...even several levels back they have the shared sires or dams. I know there is a lot of breeding within the same lines with other breeders as well. I just don't want to run into health issues that can come with that. You think I am overly concerned with this?


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

abrown751977 said:


> You think I am overly concerned with this?


Not at all. Its more properly called "Inbreeding" and is BAD NEWS for every backyard/ novice breeder; for a great many reasons. And especially for sporting dogs.......


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## aab751977 (Dec 2, 2013)

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Not at all. Its more properly called "Inbreeding" and is BAD NEWS for every backyard/ novice breeder; for a great many reasons. And especially for sporting dogs.......


Seems like there is a lot of inbreeding with all of the GSP kennels. I am not judging, they have obviously been successful. Just want to full educate myself before committing to another pup.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

IMHO, Unless your name is Bob Whele or Dr Flannagan you should never mess around with Inbreeding.  
Hopefully, GunDogGuy will see this and add his Professional sporting dog experience to this thread.........


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

abrown751977 said:


> Sire and Dam from the same breedings or even the same litters...even several levels back they have the shared sires or dams. I know there is a lot of breeding within the same lines with other breeders as well. I just don't want to run into health issues that can come with that. You think I am overly concerned with this?


Double bred is to sires to one bitch.That is why I asked.
COI(coefficient of linebreeding)
I'm not sure if you have the right information.
You should talk with Scott and honestly should be careful about publicly discussing what sounds like misinformation


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## aab751977 (Dec 2, 2013)

birdhntr said:


> Double bred is to sires to one bitch.That is why I asked.
> COI(coefficient of linebreeding)
> I'm not sure if you have the right information.
> You should talk with Scott and honestly should be careful about publicly discussing what sounds like misinformation


Maybe you don't realize, this forum is intended to allow hunters to get information they may not know. There is no ill will or misinformation intended. I am simply trying to educate myself. 

I believe all 4 of the breeders I listed are great breeders otherwise I would not have them even on my list. I don't want to turn this into a back and forth conversation. I am looking for information from hunters who have dogs from the breeders I have listed and so far this has turned into an inbreeding and double breeding conversation. Totally not what I intended


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

NATTY BUMPO said:


> IMHO, Unless your name is Bob Whele or Dr Flannagan you should never mess around with Inbreeding.
> Hopefully, GunDogGuy will see this and add his Professional sporting dog experience to this thread.........



Thanks Natty But I can not be of any help in these GSP thread. Although I have trained a boat load of them I have no opinions about blood lines and pointing dog breeding practices. whether it be line breeding, out crosses or in breeding.
None of our great dogs came from out crosses, though it started there but in was going back to the line with a line breeding that proved very successful. and that is what the OP may be seeing in the pedigrees but does not realize it.
Pedigrees may be a two edge sword for the uniformed and those that are casual dog owners.




abrown751977 said:


> Maybe you don't realize, this forum is intended to allow hunters to get information they may not know. There is no ill will or misinformation intended. I am simply trying to educate myself.
> 
> I believe all 4 of the breeders I listed are great breeders otherwise I would not have them even on my list. I don't want to turn this into a back and forth conversation. I am looking for information from hunters who have dogs from the breeders I have listed and so far this has turned into an inbreeding and double breeding conversation. Totally not what I intended


I would be more interested in finding out what you like or dislike about your current dog and what you are looking to improve upon with your next. Find the breeder in your list that is producing dogs you like and you would feel comfortable with. 
Now if your looking to acquire a stud for current dog...well all bets are off and I'm out of here


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## aab751977 (Dec 2, 2013)

I would be more interested in finding out what you like or dislike about your current dog and what you are looking to improve upon with your next. Find the breeder in your list that is producing dogs you like and you would feel comfortable with.
Now if your looking to acquire a stud for current dog...well all bets are off and I'm out of here
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the feedback. No my current dog is SPAYED. I like a lot of things about my current dog.

1. Perfect size (~45 lbs)
2. awesome hunting drive
3. natural ability
4. Great in the house and with the family.
5. Great in the outdoor kennel during the day while I am at work
6. Love the paint job (Liver and Roan, with a white tail). Can be a little hard to see in the field, but like the flag when it pops up.
7. Her general health has been good

If I had to pick anything for improvement I wish she would work a little closer to me at times. First run in the morning she runs a little big, but she does come in a little closer after she gets the first burst of energy out. My current dog is a great dog and if there was a way to clone her...I would


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

abrown751977 said:


> Maybe you don't realize, this forum is intended to allow hunters to get information they may not know. There is no ill will or misinformation intended. I am simply trying to educate myself.
> 
> I believe all 4 of the breeders I listed are great breeders otherwise I would not have them even on my list. I don't want to turn this into a back and forth conversation. I am looking for information from hunters who have dogs from the breeders I have listed and so far this has turned into an inbreeding and double breeding conversation. Totally not what I intended


Sorry if I upset you.
Double breeding, inbreeding, and line breeding are specific by definition at least to some.
Coefficient of linebreeding is a percentage number and on a lot of five generation papers you will see it with most breeds that some line breeding exists.
COI numbers would be helpful for you to address your concerns.
Some breeds have a high COl due to less popularity and a smaller group to breed.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

Scott (Crosswinds) breeds really nice dogs and you can’t go wrong. Dan and April (Monkeyshine) do a great job training and campaigning and I wouldn’t hesitate on a pup there either. 
Not to get off track, but there is a big difference in line breeding and inbreeding.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

hehibrits said:


> Not to get off track, but there is a big difference in line breeding and inbreeding.


What is that old saying? "Line breeding when it works, inbreeding when it doesn't"


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

There is another old saying breed the best to the best cull the rest. I don't know the guys name but I would look into the guy that was winning at Gladwin. He was doing well competing against pointers and setters on wild birds.


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## Osubuck (Dec 6, 2012)

I have two GSP from this breeder. Excellent dogs!!!
Stillwater Shorthairs
5477 Co Rd 5 North
Rushsylvania OH
43347


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Worm Dunker said:


> There is another old saying breed the best to the best cull the rest. I don't know the guys name but I would look into the guy that was winning at Gladwin. He was doing well competing against pointers and setters on wild birds.


Shane Baxter is his name.
I also won a the hunting dog stake with my little 37 pound blue briar GSP.
I have seen crosswinds dogs and they are excellent.
His "Chip"dog was 2x NC and 5x NASTRA and if memory serves me well he was dog of the year twice.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Crosswind has wonderful short hairs but he plays a game that uses pen raised birds not wild birds. There has to be somebody who's foundation dogs are from dogs that hunt wild birds. You might be better to get a pup from guys that just have good hunting dogs that's what you want isn't it. Good luck


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## skidoojc (Aug 28, 2006)

Worm Dunker said:


> Crosswind has wonderful short hairs but he plays a game that uses pen raised birds not wild birds. There has to be somebody who's foundation dogs are from dogs that hunt wild birds. You might be better to get a pup from guys that just have good hunting dogs that's what you want isn't it. Good luck


I do believe you believe this is true. 

How about you drive down and inform Scott he’s doing it all wrong. 

Throw down bird dogs


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

He's not wrong he's won enough championship's to prove it. Why don't you call him and ask if him has ever won a trial on wild birds. Football players are good at their game you don't see them playing basketball.


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## skidoojc (Aug 28, 2006)

Worm Dunker said:


> He's not wrong he's won enough championship's to prove it. Why don't you call him and ask if him has ever won a trial on wild birds. Football players are good at their game you don't see them playing basketball.





Redirect Notice


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Well I just casually reread the post. I though I suggested a breeder complimented crosswinds for a good job He's done with his short hairs and now the pointers he's campaign. About shorthair owners no I don't have much respect for them. Most seem to be thin skinned and can't take a joke😄 look way back The Band of shorttail Brothers.


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## goose schatt (Sep 11, 2012)

Worm Dunker said:


> That's what I like about shorthair owners they can always come up with a excuse except why they can't compete in wild bird trials . We've had this dog fight for years on this form and I've still never heard of any breed of dog breed to due everything that can compete with setters and pointers that are breed for one perpose. Go ahead prove me wrong.


Most of us save our vacation time to hunt. Who cares about a competition


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> More important than trying to prove you're either right or either wrong - just what did you hope to achieve with this post that trashes another pointing dog breed and their owners ?
> 
> The same applies to this post
> 
> ...


I believe it was sarcasm, so no need to take offense. I’m just glad they are ripping the shorthairs so the Brittany’s can get a bit of a break from it 🤣🤣🤣


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Worm Dunker said:


> Well I just casually reread the post. I though I suggested a breeder complimented crosswinds for a good job He's done with his short hairs and now the pointers he's campaign. About shorthair owners no I don't have much respect for them. Most seem to be thin skinned and can't take a joke😄 look way back The Band of shorttail Brothers.


Interesting but there is more to your posts.
Thick skin.I'll bite. I trained my dog on my own and your words and past disdain towards shorthairs is the reason I trained her to a specific goal.To run the fastest,hit objectives,the fittest dog,and shed the heat for a half hour like a train without water no less.
I went to win with a shorthair.
I prepared for two years.
Now you on the other hand took a nice dog and put it with one of the best trainer/handlers in the coverdog circuit.Other than fronting the money what exactly did you accomplish.
Signed by: Mr thin Skin.lol


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Mr skinhead I wrote this and read it and I figured I better rewrite it just for your purpose.You said you train your dogs different not sure why you would train with out water but it's your way. I won the Lake States years ago severely handicap and deaf in one year. Thay was my first and only placement in 16 years trying. When that dog passed I swore I'd never get another. I've dogs for many years couldn't not have a dog. I meet Michiganmaniac on these forms he volunteered to run Hunter(old dog) at our Grouse Camps. He drove down from the UP to run Hunter for me to close out the season. I got Gunner I asked him to run him in a trial for me. He meet him the day before the trial we ran my honey hole he came out with a big grin and said he wants a Billie dog. Now you said I use pro trainer in March I sent him with Scott Forman for a month. Scott couldn't couldn't make all of Mi. Spring trials so I put him with Rich Hollister and after three weeks he placed hi second. This weekend at the Lake States Gunner was found on point high head and high tail pointing a porkie. He left it alone he didn't place but I though he was a winner. He has seen his last trial I only did it to try show his potential to hope to find him a date. I want pick of litter female to give Joe the pup for dying me a solid. Most don't know I started bird hunting with labs went to short hairs than got in to grouse and went to setter like a lot of people on here. So when I answer questions of shorthairs I just try to shorten the luring curve curve😄I did see you at Gladwin we had a good laugh. When I started reading your posts I figured I would like you. After my we meet I was right Good luck with that new puppy remember it's not a GSP


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> I would appreciate an honest answer. Thanks in advance.
> 
> 9mm Hi-Power


It was a joke. 
Pretty much everyone on this forum could see that except you Michael.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

[


2ESRGR8 said:


> It was a joke.
> Pretty much everyone on this forum could see that except you Michael.


Encouraging members to "pile disdain" (paraphrased) on a breed of bird dog and their owners doesn't seem like much of a joke , especially from a representative (or former representative ?) of a national and respected bird hunting organization. Not surprisingly, Scott, you're much more polite and thoughtful on another bird hunting forum.

9mm Hi-Power


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## Mike da Carpenter (Nov 26, 2017)

Those that can do. Those that can’t, settle for trials.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Mike da Carpenter said:


> Those that can do. Those that can’t, settle for trials.


Trials are exciting and fun.
It's not what most think and the folks involved at Gladwin are wonderful and a pleasure to be around.
I think that draws me in more than the rest of it.
Many of the trialer's hunt quite often.There is a good mix and many who enter are are really just hunters.


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## GrouseHntr (Nov 2, 2008)

Jesus, this thread. Someone want to bring up shotguns or trucks so everyone can get in on the butthurt?


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> [
> 
> Encouraging members to "pile disdain" (paraphrased) on a breed of bird dog and their owners doesn't seem like much of a joke , especially from a representative (or former representative ?) of a national and respected bird hunting organization. Not surprisingly, Scott, you're much more polite and thoughtful on another bird hunting forum.
> 
> 9mm Hi-Power





9mm Hi-Power said:


> More important than trying to prove you're either right or either wrong - just what did you hope to achieve with this post that trashes another pointing dog breed and their owners ?
> 
> The same applies to this post
> 
> ...


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

Mike da Carpenter said:


> Those that can do. Those that can’t, settle for trials.


And those that dominate do both...


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Did I miss something somebody famous here. I was with RGS for 16 years it ain't me😄


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## GrouseHntr (Nov 2, 2008)

hehibrits said:


> And those that dominate do both...


But not with brits.... 🤣🤣


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

Ken DeLong and Dr Najor would beg to differ about the Brittanies

Sent from my SM-A515U using Tapatalk


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

Ken's doing well with his pointer too though. 

Sent from my SM-A515U using Tapatalk


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

GrouseHntr said:


> But not with brits.... 🤣🤣











🧐


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Congratulations


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## GrouseHntr (Nov 2, 2008)

hehibrits said:


> View attachment 767107
> 
> 🧐


HAHA does it count if your ribbon comes from an all Brit show/trial? Just messing with ya dude, I don't care what dog you have or what you do with it. Not like I have one of the popular breeds.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

They all count one of my setters got three from Gordon Setter and one from Irish Setter to be a some kind of a hunter test. Cheaper than shooting preserve


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