# Fly Only being lifted



## shotgunner (Jan 15, 2003)

just got home, 1:55 a.m. winding down will an import. AWSOME evening......

whit, i'm gonna have to respectfully disagree to the bait vs. lure/fly issue. i may not have 50 yrs [yet] but better than 30, and have fished all methods extensively. sngl hooked lure vs. fly, i'll buy that. a social issue? if they'll let me on the water pretty much everybodys in....LOL...... 

this debate reminds me of my dad who lives and breathes deer & elk hunting in several states & provinces. he has been complaining for ever about all the _unfair_ advantages archery hunters have over firearms. special regs, special seasons, more desirable time frames. he dosn't like it pointed out to him that he could take advantage of it all if he just chose to do so. just mutters "i dont want to monkey with that stuff." personally i think he's nuts not to, but, his choice. bottom line, its available for ALL not just a certain select few. 



> Furthermore, the handling of a fish to be released has more to do with how it survives than fly's vs. bait/hardware. In other words, if you play a fish too long or handle it too much it will die no matter how you caught it.


 borrowed from gunrod

gunrod, very much in agreement here. i like a B.L. hook for this reason. a quick reversal of the shank and their off with a *touchless* release. should B.L. be implemented as mandantory? well, if it were i'd have to start crunching the barbs on the #4 octos i like so well for winter steel with 
*BAIT* on them. personal preferance again.......

to many put to much on what type gear the other guy is using. a true sportsman will be easily recognisable if you just look at the individual rather than the gear.



> By the way, over 95% of the fish I catch are hooked in the mouth.


 borrowed from splitshot. you an me both splitshot, wouldn't want it any other way. SG


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

How I long for the day when I was 10 and thought anyone with a rod in their hand was "fishing". When your that young whether you see someone fly fishing, plug fishing or bait fishing in your mind they are "fishing". There was never the added "fly", "bait", "bobber" etc...

I agree with everything Ray said. Sad fact is though that mankind is a pack animal and hence we will always try to divide ourselves into different camps, whether it be fishing, hunting, politics etc... 

BTW, Whit, I took some pic's the other week on the Grand of those old sucker platforms. I'll send them off to you when I get them uploaded.

To quote Buzz Floatman, "Friends don't let friends use slinkies"


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

"As for it being elite.......there is something to be said for taking some fur, feather, thread, a hook and making it into something and catching fish, vs picking up a spinner off the rack."" This just keeps getting better and better!!! Yup, now I guess all Fly fisherman tie their own flies?!?!? Good for those 1% that do their own flies and just add one lone spinner into that making of the "fly" and somehow it becomes illegal!?!? Something to be said getting out at 11pm after some rain and slooshing around the grass with flash light and sneaking up on ole nightcrawler and trying to be quick enough before he quickly sneaks back in is hole---and oh yea, one of the funniest things to do for kids in the summer!


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## bombcast (Sep 16, 2003)

I'd support additional areas of single hook/artificial lure water, with limited kill opportunities. I detest the concept of "flies only" though, and no-kill based merely upon satisfying Orvi-Yups and their twisted concepts of fishing. 

Imagine fluttering a silver #4 spinner through Alligator Alley, or running a pair of Tots thru the Spring Hole. :lol:


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## TC-fisherman (Feb 15, 2003)

here's a interesting place from DNR with all their fish research
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10364_10951---,00.html




some good ones:
http://www.michigandnr.com/PUBLICATIONS/PDFS/ifr/ifrlibra/Research/abstracts/1996abs.htm

Our findings suggest that fishing regulations that reduce angling mortality of intensively-fished brook trout in small streams should significantly enhance populations of larger trout and improve the total catch of trout by anglers

http://www.michigandnr.com/PUBLICATIONS/PDFS/ifr/ifrlibra/Research/abstracts/1987abs.htm

In general, the condition of brown trout populations improved in the catch-and-release section but deteriorated in both control sections. Total abundance of brown trout increased significantly in the catch-and-release section and decreased significantly in the control sections. 

Thus, the catch-and-release regulation produced a better population of larger trout than would have existed otherwise.

http://www.michigandnr.com/PUBLICATIONS/PDFS/ifr/ifrlibra/Research/abstracts/1895abs.htm

With respect to gear restrictions, it was found that use of fly-fishing only regulations maximized the number of trophy fish in the population,


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

BTW, I'm confident there is no truth to the post that started this thread. That water is here to stay.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Again, the C&R regs have nothing to do with flys only arguement. And thats pretty much a no-brainer anyways, C&R areas should have the most fish if all is equal(same habitat). What the study says it that is maximizes the popualtion but what it does not tell you is it ONLY by one fish per mile or 100,000 fish per mile?? 

Also the gear study does the same thing, it also states *artificial gear * has very low mortality which includes flys and spinners/rapaplas etc.. and I'm sure the differences are very mimimal.

AND the trophy fish size they use to me is pretty average-16 inches and over is trophy size in the study. Not to sound like I'm a great fisherman, but 16-18 inch fish is a _very nice fish _ and 18-20 _dam thats a dandy_ and 20-25 inches would be considered trophy size.


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

bombcast said:


> I detest the concept of "flies only" though, and no-kill based merely upon satisfying Orvi-Yups and their twisted concepts of fishing.


It seems some people who toss spinners and bait hate to be aligned with those who toss balls of mono and bait conatiners on the ground.
Using the 'logic' of bombcast though, I guess because there are slobs who don't fly fish, ALL non fly fishers are slobs.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

> BTW, I'm confident there is no truth to the post that started this thread. That water is here to stay


I hope your right, or at least I hope your right until I figure out that I just can't figure out this fly fishing thing.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

2paws, I'll guarentee that there is no truth to it. None the less, even though this argument has been beaten to death in the past, at least it makes for more entertaining reading than, "float times", "when does the run start" etc...  

Good to keep things like this in the forefront rather than perpetuate inaccuracies. I'm sure we all remember the myth that Thornapple to Henning was packed full of 15"+ trout.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

> I'm sure we all remember the myth that Thornapple to Henning was packed full of 15"+ trout


A myth, now you did it, I've got to make different plans for the weekend. :lol:


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

I have yet to catch a trout in the brain :lol: I don't always pinch my barbs but alot of times I do. As I said it has a lower mortatlity rate. Usually I can get the hook out without even touching the trout. 

The flies only sections do have the better habitat on most rivers. Let think about why? Must of the structure and banks were worked on and paid for. Who pays for it? T.U., FFF, some from the DNR (no more now thu), Friends of The Ausable. Anyone see kind of a patern. I think the majority of funds that makes those stretches so good is coming from the Fly Fisherman and not others. Maybe that's why the government has agreed to setting these areas up because they knew that groups with money will make improvements & maintain the stretch. 

I have some issues with the comments that the Flies only stretches are so easy. It's easier becuase there are more fish in the stretch? How does that make fishing for one paticular fish easier? And even if it truely is. What the heck is wrong with that? I know plenty of kids who are trying to get in the sport and these stretches are great for them. If you are out to catch alot of fish these stretches are great. If you want to make things more challenging then goto another section. But to eliminate these sections is just a bad idea in my opinion. 

When we fish most go thru some common phases. First you want to catch fish, then you want to catch the most, then you want to catch the biggest, then you want to catch the most difficult ones. Most who have been fishing have cycled thru these. Is any of these phases wrong? Flies only stretch is great for the first two phases. Hopefully stretches like these get more people into fly-fishing then hopefully more of them donate to FFF or T.U. or Friends of the AuSAble and other organization that dump money back into these stretchs as well as other strecthes. 

I guesse I'll keep my rose colored glasses on. I like these stretches and I think they deserve to stay. I don't need an increase in these stretches but keep it the same.


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## Speyday (Oct 1, 2004)

there have been a few times where I have had a lure like a spoon or spinner, and then trailed a streamer about 18" behind it when I knew fish were around, curious about the lure, but non-committal to striking it. I have landed fish on this method fishing off the piers.

there used to be a time some years ago where I was trying to land skamanias on a dry fly in the rivers. What I would do is swing a big spinner with the hooks clipped off, and when a fish would chase or strike, I would immediately drop that rod, and pick up my dry fly rod and go after em. Ive had 3 fish fall for that so far.

I wonder if it would be legal to have a hookless lure, followed by a trailing fly behind it in the flies-only waters.........maybe I will check with the DNR before I experiment and get myself into trouble.

There is no denying the teasing and provoking features that spinners, spoons, and plugs have on fish that are in a nuetral mood..


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

T&T 9 1/2' 3pc 5wt

GLX 9' 4pc 6wt

Might consider trades for a beefy yellow rod and reel with a good drag...LOL :lol:


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Shoeman, I can rent you closet space to store them. They can sit in my closet next to about 10 Sage-Orvis fly rods along with a variety of Pate's, Tibors, STH's and Battenkills that haven't seen the light of day for a few years. Heck, the wife was cleaning the garage last summer and round a 9' 6wt Sage SP with a Tibor Everglades on it sitting in the corner. Quote "How long has this been here", Answer "a few years", Question "if your not using it, do you want to sell it at the garage sale", Answer "nope, it's cost about $1,000, Response "you have too much stuff" :lol:


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Hey Speyday all you did was invent or use a smaller version of the salmon dodger fly combo/spin doctor/hootchie...Oh crap...does this mean I fly fish when I'm salmon fishing??? Hey wildcat, I thought a portion of TU members were not all flyfisherman, Friends of the AuSable--my family are members and give to that every year, most of the fudning comes from property owners and most do not fish, Large Woody Debris---money came from sportsman licenses, where is the program now, well the state cut off the majority of the funds and it basically is put on hold for two years, if the other groups had so much support to it, well you get it......---sure lots of money and support comes from fly fisherman but come on man, do not give ALL the credit to group. 

Ask your this, how many kids under the age of 16 fishing on their own do you see fishing the C&R areas and Fly only areas??? How many areas were C&R and flys only when you first started fishing??


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Beer and Nuts,

Like TSS I am also skeptical of your report and would like to know where you heard this. I have heard from a person in Lansing that there is little support to make any of the new 112 miles of water flies only, but that might be misleading. The pressure has already started and well see what happens when the heat gets turned up.

Indeed Catch and Release is a different issue from Flies only but they are related because most of the people who support Catch and Release are fly fishermen. I have read the studies posted by TC before. Of course there will be more trout if all the trout are returned. And of course there will be more trout if only fly fishing is allowed.

Studies show that in Catch and Release areas over time the brown trout will become smaller. Think bluegills. Perhaps we should stop fishing all together and take solace in the fact that we know that the fish are there. While we are at it, we should stop hunting too. Think of how many more animals there will be like pheasants, deer, ducks and others. Can anyone see what the repercussions might be down the road?

I think Catch and Release areas should be available to rookies with less than three years experience. A person could be allowed to fish these areas for three years after they get their first license. Perhaps special licenses could also be allowed for people who cry and proclaim that they cant catch any fish if they are forced to fish in areas where the easy fish have already been caught. 

Wildcatwick,

Lets see; if a group of polish people spend a few weekends improving the habitat we should make that section of river polish people only for life? Does that sound silly to you? Beer and Nuts, Wildcatwick is the poster child for the, us fly fishermen deserves special privileges award. Over a million dollars was spent on the flies only section of the PM of mostly public money, some from fly fishermen for sure but not even close to the largest percentage.

If you ask a fly fisherman why he donates time working to make the river better it is always for altruistic reasons. I do it for the environment and to help bring the river back to its natural state. Once the fishing gets better and a few worm dunkers start catching a few, some of them start lobbying the DNR to change the rules and claim it for themselves. The stretch between M72 and Yellowtrees on the Big Manistee river East of Grayling is a perfect example of what happens when people lobby behind the scenes with no opposition. Every section of flies only rivers are considered Blue Ribbon Waters. The flies only sections of our rivers were the best sections before any habitat improvements were made.

I consider myself a fisherman who fly fishes and I dare say I have spent a hell of a lot more time working and taking time to help improve the habitat of our rivers than most fly fishermen. The difference is I dont expect anything special for me as a result. These rivers belong to all citizens and should not be restricted to use by 2% of the fishermen who fly fish because some of them spent a little time and money helping improve our rivers. If that were true, Dave (Dry Fly) would deserve a section of river just for his personal use.

It isnt fly fishermen that are the problem because I know to many fly fishermen who like flies only stretches, would like them to remain flies only, but also understand that flies only rules are based not on hard science, but social science. It is the purist fly fishermen who are usually the ones who cry that they need special rules and make statements like WC. I think many of us knows deep down many of these guys are insecure because they dont think they can catch fish without special rules and the sad part is they think they deserve to keep the best sections of our rivers because somehow they are special. 

Oh yeah, dont forget it is easier for the kids to catch fish in these areas too. My opinion is anyone who thinks it is a good idea to introduce a kid into the fishing community by starting him out fly fishing is setting him up to fail. Not because fly fishing is more challenging, I covered that in my last post, but because 95% of the time trout are not feeding on the surface. Kids dont want to spend time casting, they want to catch fish. Very weak argument.

The only argument that has even a little credibility is the mortality argument but even that is very weak. There is no reason exclude lures into the Quote Quality unquote waters except for those who think they deserve some of the best stretches of our best rivers for their exclusive use. 

By the way Jack since the last time we had this discussion, we probably have 2000 new members some of which might be interested in this discussion. If it makes you feel bad to read about it, Ill bet you can guess what my advice would be? Thanks for volunteering to help clean up some river. Lots of us who consider ourselves fishermen do it every time we go out fishing and dont expect anything in return.

Keep trying to come up with that one good reason. Ill be gone until after the holiday, so put your thinking caps on.

Postscript;

Some of the terse remarks in this post were only meant for those described and not against fly fishing or fly fishermen and women. I love fly fishing and would rather catch a trout on a dry fly than any other way, hands down.

My competition is with the trout, not the method. It is more important for me to catch a trout than catch it on a fly. To many it is more important to catch a trout on a fly than catch a trout. I have no problem with that all the way up until some of these people try to change the rules to up the odds!


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

> but because 95% of the time trout are not feeding on the surface. Kids don&#8217;t want to spend time casting, they want to catch fish. Very weak argument.


I have to correct you on this. 95% of the time that I fly fish I don't use surface flys. Don't mean to pick on you Ray, you know I use all methods but that statement paints an inaccurate picture.


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## TC-fisherman (Feb 15, 2003)

Splitshot said:


> I have read the studies posted by TC before.
> 
> Studies show that in Catch and Release areas over time the brown trout will become smaller. Think bluegills.



http://www.michigandnr.com/PUBLICATIONS/PDFS/ifr/ifrlibra/Research/abstracts/1987abs.htm

Thus, the catch-and-release regulation produced a better population of larger trout than would have existed otherwise. Mean lengths at age of brown trout did not change significantly in catch-and-release or control sections.



everytime C&R comes up you mention bulegills. Trout are not bluegills. Love to get a peak at one of those studies you mention. 




Splitshot said:


> but also understand that flies only rules are based not on hard science, but social science.


http://www.michigandnr.com/PUBLICAT...cts/1895abs.htm

With respect to gear restrictions, it was found that use of fly-fishing only regulations maximized the number of trophy fish in the population



Splitshot said:


> I think many of us knows deep down many of these guys are insecure because they dont think they can catch fish without special rules and the sad part is they think they deserve to keep the best sections of our rivers because somehow they are special.


Maybe some people are insecure about C&R cause then they won't be able to post pictures of a "limit" of fillets on the internet. and whats the point of fishing if you can't do that?


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Splitshot said:


> My competition is with the trout, not the method. It is more important for me to catch a trout than catch it on a fly. To many it is more important to catch a trout on a fly than catch a trout.


  
To be honest, that's has to be the most insightful statement I've ever read on this site.

TC, you can trust that Splitshot knows enough of the right people to be able to say that flies only is social not scientific.


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## Mitch (Jan 10, 2003)

Round and round we go! 

A couple of great posts Ray!

Mitch


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

plugger said:


> On the pm more big fish will be caught in stretch of water that allows bait and kill in the next couple of weeks than will come out of the the no kill fly water in a year. Most of these fish will be caught on flies.


Reality sucks Tc-fisherman. There are "some" good fish in the flyonly/[email protected] section of this river, but not as many as you would expect. Do not even try and convince me alot of large fish are not removed from that section in some fly fisherman's wader's cause it's the largest trout he/she ever caught. Artificial only, slot limits, limited catch and release area's, i have no problem with. Flies only, social program at it's finest. Riverman


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Steve, 

I agree, but nymph, wet fly and for the most part streamer fishing is more difficult than fishing on the surface. In regard to starting a kid fly fishing I didnt mention it because that would make even less sense.

Kids need to catch fish and any kid I introduce to fishing is on bluegills using bait or on a river where a lot of stocking is done. Once they start catching fish and want to try fly fishing, no problem.

TC, call Mark Tonello the fish biologist in Cadillac and ask him. That is where I got my information. I wasnt comparing bluegills to trout in terms of catching them, but I guess they are both fish and like bluegills, brown trout will become smaller in size as numbers increase. Why dont you cut the bull and give me that one good reason there should be any flies only water if you can. If you do, I will take you a little more seriously.

You and a couple of others are more interested in proving me wrong than resolving the problem. Your cheap shot about showing pictures of limits is proof. It must make you angry to see my pictures because as far as I know you never even posted anything about your fishing adventures let alone a picture. I think people enjoy seeing pictures of not just my fish but everyones catch, at least I do.

Maybe you and Wildcatwick could post a few of your pictures if for nothing else just to let us know you actually get out there and fish. You guys seem to know a lot but then again, maybe your just internet fishermen?


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## brookid (Aug 25, 2004)

...guess I'll jump into the fray...

I grew up in NE Michigan and for the better part of 30 years tossed spinners and drifted worms. I spent almost every summer day at various trout streams near our cottage. It always bothered me everytime I gut hooked a fish...as I got older and became a better fisherman it didn't happen as often...but it still did...to the point I quit the use of natural bait and switched to spinners. The only problem then was i could never get used to seeing a trouts mouth engorged by sometimes 3 hooks...so I swapped all the treble hooks for singles on all my spinners and plugs...but still something just didn't seem right...at least to me.

As I got older and life started to get in the way I drifted away from fishing for many years...but then slowly over time I rediscovered the sport, that at one time in my life, I loved more than anything...chasing trout. I went back to what I knew...throwing spinners and from time to time even drifting a worm. The results however were sometimes the same as the past...but I still fished every chance I could.

Then, and it wasn't that long ago...on a whim, i decided to try fly fishing. I dug up my dads old rods and reels from the cottage...and started investing a great deal of time, energy and money in the pursuit of this sport...I cannot say enough for the love I have for fly fishing. It has risen to almost an addiction level...well hell, its a full blown addiction. I think its made me a better fisherman, I think its forced me to take the time to look around and observe my surroundings, the stream, the light, the trash, the bugs in the air, on the water, under the rocks ect...for me its opened up a whole new world...one I never new existed with a panther martin.

Have I turned into an elitest...absolutely not....people can choose to fish however they want. I will say this however, and no amount of data will convince me other wise...if you fish with a hook and a worm you will gut hook fish...period. How often and do they survive regardless of your method? who's to say, but I will guarantee it happens more than 5% of the time...but then it becomes a school yard arguement...I can't prove that you do and you can't prove that you don't. I have never gut hooked a fish with a nymph, dry or streamer. I don't care what the data or studies say...I like the idea of keeping the hook out of their throat. In regards to spinners, and based on experience, I can pop a fly out much quicker than I can 3 treble hooks...call me crazy but the quicker I get them back in the water the better I feel...but I can be guilty of a quick snap shot.

I don't think it takes a lot of skill to dredge a blue fox through a pool...or a streamer for that matter...nor do I think it requires a lot of skill to drift a worm. I do think it requires more skill to cast with a fly rod. I do think it requires more skill to dead drift a nymph then to reel in a spinner. I do think it takes more skill to work a back eddy to a rising fish with conflicting currents. I think it takes more skill to fish with a fly rod. I enjoy the feeling of a fish on a flyrod...to me your connected to the fish...I feel both the tug of the rod and because I rarely put a fish on the reel, the tug of the line as I strip it in. I had very few fishless days with spinners and bait...I've had quite a few fly fishing...but for me, there in lies the charm...I think fly fishing is harder...there in lies the challenge...thats why i prefer it. 

But in the big picture...who really cares...I mean seriously...its fishing...we're not saving lives.Do I care how someone chooses to fish...no, do special regs help a fishery? I don't know...does C&R mean more or bigger fish...don't know...am I in favor of flies only water?...I love to fly fish, why wouldn't I be? Do I feel fly fisherman are better fisherman...no. Do I feel that if someone wants to take advantage of special regulations they should change the way they like to fish...absolutely not. If the Holy Waters turned into mepps only I wouldn't fish it because I don't enjoy throwing spinners. If the regs were to change to include every type of fishing I'd have to deal with it...because again, its just fishing.

I hope every fisherman of every shape and size using every imaginable method
gets a chance to get in the water and enjoy him or herself...

Brookid


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## mondrella (Dec 27, 2001)

I have just read thru this and I would be behind the removal of all the fly only and NO KILL water there is. 
Lets see Wildcatwick you say you have caught more and better trout in the PM fly only water. Big deal whoopee! And TC fisherman you think theres a benefit to NO Kill your wrong. 
I have not been trout fishing long. I am far from good at it but I have caught a number of trout that most people would have on the wall. I have fished nearly all the fly only water at some point. But I have enough brains to realize the best water of the PM and the Little Man and the Big Man the esky wich is artifical only are the best sections of water to hold and grow trout. Why is that? Flat out it was social and political pressure. There is no benifit what so ever. The last time I fished the fly only of the PM I did it for 3 weeks straight. I caught numerous trout and I caught one fish that was hanging out next to a log in water maybe 18" deep that most people over look 3 times in one week all on the same streamer. This was no dink but a 20+ inch fish. As for a place to get kids started no way my kids each have caught numerous trout my daughter has many my son who just turned 2 last month has caught about 20 so far. every one he has caught he has wanted to take home and eat 14 have been keepers so we have ate well a few nights. Kids need to be able and take these fish home to put a meal on the table it makes them feel like the kings and queens of the world to know they played a major part in putting a meal on the table. Let them know fishing is not just a form of entertainment but a way of life.
Guess what many of the biggest browns I have caught have come from rivers where there is no regulations or a class one stream. Yes there will be a short time over the big picture that trout will be bigger but it is a small window when competition and overall numbers will slow growth rates and decrease overall size. I believe there was a study already that shows the No Kill water of the PM has slower growth rate. Lets see down river in the hog water the river is bigger deeper and much harder to eletroshock to show what really is there. Those of us who really know the river know where to go for a monster brown on a fly and it is miles from the fly water.

As for the studies mention by Beer and nuts they once were publilshed not in full however in IN-FISHERMAN. Not to long ago I read a article about the survival of rainbows that were allowed to swallow hooks some were removed and some left in the fish. By going thru the gills with hemos and pushing the hook deeper and then rolling the shank to the point of the hook survival rates where much higher in the end. Yes some fish won't make it. I have had trout inhale drys to the point you could not even see it. those same fish have the same chance of survival as a deep hook crawler fish. 
And to the rest that think flyfishing needs thier only special spots give me a just reason.


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## mondrella (Dec 27, 2001)

brookid said:


> ...
> I don't think it takes a lot of skill to dredge a blue fox through a pool...or a streamer for that matter...nor do I think it requires a lot of skill to drift a worm. I do think it requires more skill to cast with a fly rod. I do think it requires more skill to dead drift a nymph then to reel in a spinner. I do think it takes more skill to work a back eddy to a rising fish with conflicting currents. I think it takes more skill to fish with a fly rod. I enjoy the feeling of a fish on a flyrod...to me your connected to the fish...I feel both the tug of the rod and because I rarely put a fish on the reel, the tug of the line as I strip it in. I had very few fishless days with spinners and bait...I've had quite a few fly fishing...but for me, there in lies the charm...I think fly fishing is harder...there in lies the challenge...thats why i prefer it.
> 
> 
> Brookid


 I have to disagree Brookid. There is a true art to every type of fishing be it with bait or hardware or flyrod. It is obvious that the flyrod holds a challenge to you and it is more important to catch a fish on a fly than catch a fish. That is your choice. I am a very good hardware fisherman if I say so myself. To be able to place a cast and expect more than a 14" fish is taking it to another level. Very few people are at that point. I expect to get at least 1 fish over 18" every time out this year has stunk for me. Last year I was on a totally different level. Fish like that were in my hands nearly every time on the water. Only a handfull of times it did not happen. 
Its like Splitshot he is a artist with bait and getting it in front of fish. Not only that he is a dam fine hardware fisherman and knows when to pull the flyrod out.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

I had a longer post, responding to comments made in this thread over the past few pages, but lost it due to a short power outage during the mild thunderstorm that is passing through right now. I was proof reading it and "bam" the computer shut down. Damn!!

In short, I take strong exception to the guys who say that it doesn't take any particular skill to "dredge" hardware or bait through a hole and catch trout. Certainly on the face of it the comment is correct. However, the object is to catch trout.......yes I know there is more to fishing than that (read my article in July's Woods n' Waters News to begin to understand my feelings for stream trout fishing). However, to place that lure or bait in the correct position with the correct presentation......yes, that's right, I said "presentation".....in order to get the trout to hit is a skill bordering on a craft. It is, that is, for the anglers who can do so with regularity.

Apparently, according to some in here, the ease of catching trout with bait or hardware threatens the very existence of trout in any stream where they exist. The empty creels of so many anglers who ply their favorite stream on Opening Day (supposedly, according to some, the easiest time to catch trout) are a figment of the imagination, it being so easy to fill that creel with trout IF one uses bait or hardware..........:lol: :sad:  .

My original post was better, but this series of t'storms continue to move eastward off Lake Michigan and I'd better close this down.

Have fun guys and gals and keep the discussion above board.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Ever since the first day I fished, one thing has determined how and what I use at that particular moment to catch trout and that is the trout themselves. I remember fishing the flys only stretches of rivers before they became such and the quantities and sizes of fish then were equal and most of the times better than what they fish today being fly's only. Two of my most favorite rivers I fish have the same quality of fishing today as they had in the mid seventies and both have neither C & R or flies only and have probably 3 times the traffic they did back in the seventies. Pardon the pun, but it flies in the face of the theory of most flyfisherman who think that you can only have a world class fishery by releasing all fish and by removing live bait.


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## brookid (Aug 25, 2004)

...I figured those comments would ruffle some feather but its an opinion based on my experience. I feel its easier to catch fish with naturals and spinners...again just an opinion and not meant to put fly fishing on a pedestal.

I have a guide I've used in Wisconsin a couple times and whenever he explores
new water he uses spinners to "hunt"...I witnessed it first hand. He got a tip on a beaver dam pool that supposedly held some big trout. They didn't seem to have any intesrest in anything I threw at them over the course of a half hour...I said "uncle", he stepped in with a panther martin and proceeded to nail a 15 & 17 inch brown...with very little effort...I believe 3 casts.

Again, whatever works for ya...he offered me the rod first and I declined...stupid move...

Brookid


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## mondrella (Dec 27, 2001)

brookid said:


> ...I figured those comments would ruffle some feather but its an opinion based on my experience. I feel its easier to catch fish with naturals and spinners...again just an opinion and not meant to put fly fishing on a pedestal.
> 
> I have a guide I've used in Wisconsin a couple times and whenever he explores
> new water he uses spinners to "hunt"...I witnessed it first hand. He got a tip on a beaver dam pool that supposedly held some big trout. They didn't seem to have any intesrest in anything I threw at them over the course of a half hour...I said "uncle", he stepped in with a panther martin and proceeded to nail a 15 & 17 inch brown...with very little effort...I believe 3 casts.
> ...


Its easier Please I don't buy that for a second. I can drift nymphs thru a hole just as easy as a crawler. I tell you what come up next weekend and we will fish the PM. Lets start about 6 in the morning you can start out drifting hex's throughout the day. While I use my favorite baits be it live or artificials. Then say about 9:00 you can change over to a crawler or a panther while I grab the flyrod and work fish on the surface.



Thats the true difference between someone just out trying to look good doing something and someone who can actually do it. Being able to know when to use what to a accomplish a task is the sign of a skilled person. 
To me hung up on just one approach to something is a horrible weakness. 
I know there are some that are stuck in that mode and that is fine with me. When I step into the spot they just left and pop a respectable trout after they worked the water to a froth for 2 hours just helps show it to them.


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

mondrella said:


> Thats the true difference between someone just out trying to look good doing something and someone who can actually do it. Being able to know when to use what to a accomplish a task is the sign of a skilled person.
> To me hung up on just one approach to something is a horrible weakness.
> I know there are some that are stuck in that mode and that is fine with me. When I step into the spot they just left and pop a respectable trout after they worked the water to a froth for 2 hours just helps show it to them.


It works both ways. We've been laughed at on Lake Saint Clair for using 'fly poles' when the other boats around us did the usual thing. After landing about 8 nice smallies on Clousers while the other folks twiddled their thumbs it got awful quiet out there! :lol: Ain't nuthin' better than the scream of a fly reel on a quiet summer morning on the lake!
Same holds true in the pond out back. The bait and spinner dude's sneer when a fly guy shows up. They soon either go home or have the brass to come up to me and ask questions about this unknown to them technique. This situation is the reason a lot of people take fly fishing up.

I can say this with 100% certainty, I can name a lot of people who have hung up their bait/spinning gear for good in favor of the fly rod. I know of no one who gave up fly fishing to take up slinging bait. Why? I'm willing to bet it's because they enjoy fly fishing more for their OWN personal reasons.

We all have choices. Most fly fishers have spin and bait fished. Most bait/spin fishers have NOT fly fished so they really don't and can't 'get it'.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

I'm one of the converts Jack is talking about.

After chasing trout for 30+ years and throwing everything from grubs, worms, spoons, spinners and plugs at them, I decided to take up throwing feathers. For the first year I had my spinning gear in tow, kinda like a security blanket :chillin: Now the short rods gather dust. I find flyfishing multi-dimensional and very rewarding especially when you combine the fishing aspect with tying your own bugs. Most of this spring was spent chasing trout, gills, carp and since the bass season opened, I'm having a ball with them. 

It shouldn't be forced on anyone, but don't discount it. Try it, you'll like it! 

BTW, I don't care to fish "flies only" water. I find it much too crowded and basically overrated.


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## dinoday (Feb 22, 2004)

I'm a convert as well (partially anyway  )

I started using flys with my spinning rod(which I still do sometimes) and then got a fly rod 2 years ago.
I carry both spinning and fly gear with me when I get out..not so much as a security blanket as I feel I'll use whatever floats my boat and try and give the fish what they're feeding on...who am I to argue with them?
I don't really fish fly's only areas except for the Wixom Stockerfest...if they were to change the regs I'd continue to do things the way that I do.
We all just want to catch fish and how you do it is up to you


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I got my first fly rod a little over 30 years ago.:yikes: 
A beautiful Pfluger automatic reel and Fenwick rod...LOL

It has been my expierence that quite frequently a fly rod will out fish hardware, be it warmwater or cold water species. When the fish are in a neutral or negative mood, which seems to be most of the time, the subtle presentations one can make with a fly just cant be duplicated with hardware or even live bait.
I will never understand the attitude of many fly fishers that they are a purer, nobler fisherman than a bait or hardware guy. I think usually that attitude is found in recent converts, which are as bad as people who recently quit smoking or drinking in their fervor to point out the alleged errors of the ranks of those they so recently departed.


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## mondrella (Dec 27, 2001)

Jackster 
I agree with it going both ways. There have been times I have pulled out the flyrod and busted more fish than the others. 
The real issue is having a section of water deisignated to be fished only in one method. Then to top it off they are the most best sections of each river they fall on. Look at the PM and the little Man both sections fall right thru a section of gravel substrate that is some of the best in the state for fishing. The reason being social pressure from one group. 
I have 2 flyrods and yes I can use them effectively but guess what I realize that there is a much better method say 90% of the time to catch a fish. So why would I be so incompentant to limit myself. Yes I can use a fly to catch a fish that imitates what I would be using and spend twice the time doing it. It should be mine and your own personal choice to the method we wish to fish. I would bet if you limit yourself just to a flyrod fishing next to me I could out fish you at least 5 to 1 and guess what when fish start rising for bugs I am going to grab the flyrod and use it. 
Everyone goes fishing to catch fish. If they say thats not true then don't by a license and just wade or float the river carrying a stick. There are some bait guys out there that have not flyfished. Those of us that have realize there may be a better way at a certain time to catch fish. The ones that refuse have had one to many run ins with the that think they are better because they flyfish. To belittle bait fisherman the way you have thru this topic as people who just trash a stream is just one of the things. Do you know how many tippit spools and such I pick up a year? Every group has its slobs. I have seen just as many guys snagging using a flyrod as a guy throwing torpedoes.


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## FlyBoy (Feb 5, 2003)

you may have seen guys using a flyrod to snag but there wasnt a fly tied to the end of the line.


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## Old Steelhead Dude (Jan 5, 2003)

Same game different rules  :lol: 

OSD.


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

mondrella said:


> So why would I be so incompentant to limit myself... It should be mine and your own personal choice to the method we wish to fish. I would bet if you limit yourself just to a flyrod fishing next to me I could out fish you at least 5 to 1.


I guess this is the big difference. Sure I like to catch fish but it isn't a numbers game to me. A few years back a friend and I waded a not-so well known river while waiting for darkness and the hex hatch. I was content in showing him where to toss his worm as we walked and watch him nab a whole slew of fish. He kept asking me to use the fly rod and I said wait for dark.
Dark came and so did the bugs. We stood in one spot and proceeded to clobber trout after trout on the only fly rod we had. I know I could have brought the ultralite out and went toe-to-toe with him during the day. But it did not bother me in the least that I didn't (okay, maybe I was more than a little worried the bugs wouldn't come off!)
That man is now just as nuts about fly fishing as I am!
To those who don't understand I won't bother trying to explain. The bottom line is enjoyment and we all find it in different ways... a whole pile of chest-thumping big fish or that one fish you worked your fanny off for.
It's all good really.


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## fishforreel (Apr 26, 2004)

I post little and read a lot. What I see here are serious fishermen of different reasons.

Some fish for just the enjoyment. It matters not how many, if any ,fish are caught.

Some fish to brag, show pictures, tell of the large amount that were caught so they will be looked upon by some as the "hero".

Some like easy methods while others like to be more challenged. 

Some fish to catch and eat.

Some fish for purely the competition " I can catch more or am better than you". 

Some release all fish.

Some keep enough to eat.

Some keep all they legally can and gve them away to prove "I'm the fisherman" (shame on you).

As I read it, there are all kinds and I do not intend to be little anyone other than those who would be considered wasteful or trash the environment.

It is nice to see those debating who can back up their statements with links to the "proof".

Please, for us readers, don't make statements that are not fact but are taken from a factual publications or statements and are twisted to favor your side of the issue. 

I read of those refering to fishery biologists and how they view the issue. I know many fishery biologists and from personal conversations, some of what you say is not correct. Your statement may have come from part of what they said but if you quote them, please tell the whole story. 

I have not heard of any biologist or anyone else proving that killing fish will improve the total quantity or size. (blue gills in a small confined lake is a different story, it can become "stunted"). Trout can free roam in a river. 

Yes killing fish will lower the quantity. Why else would there be size and creel limits? Keep in mind the limit is also the possession limit. To catch a limit and use it for personal consumption is what the limit was intended for. 
Taking daily limits on a regular basis (remember some fish more than others and are better at it) for personal consumption and to "give away" is stretching the rule of limit. 

Each of us knows how and why we fish... you be the judge.


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## brookid (Aug 25, 2004)

"Thats the true difference between someone just out trying to look good doing something and someone who can actually do it. Being able to know when to use what to a accomplish a task is the sign of a skilled person. 
To me hung up on just one approach to something is a horrible weakness"

I don't look good fly fishing and its not a weakness....I threw spinners for 30 years...I know how easy it is...if I just wanted to catch fish easily I'd still be doing it...I am hung up on one approach because after 30 years thats the way I prefer it...at no time did I ever "slam" using spinners or bait...I expressed some concern...I've been there, I've done it...to each his own...

again...I was stating an opinion based on my experiences...at no time did I get on a high horse in terms of the big picture...refer back to my original post...


Brookid


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