# MDHA 2004-2005 Season Recommendations to CWAC



## thebellman (Mar 7, 2002)

Michigan Duck Hunters Association

Position Statement


2004-2005 Michigan Waterfowl Hunting Season

presented by 

M.D.H.A State President, Roland F. Bell, 
to the
Citizens Waterfowl Advisory Committee Members
and 
DNR-Wildlife Division
on 
July 31, 2004 
at the 
Ralph A. MacMullen Conference Center 
(RAM Center) 
in
Higgins Lake, Michigan




As the State President of the Michigan Duck Hunters Association, and as its appointed representative to the Citizens Waterfowl Advisory Committee, I hereby present our Associations positions for the 2004-2005 Michigan Waterfowl Hunting Season.

The Members of the Michigan Duck Hunters Association would request that the DNR-Wildlife Division/Waterfowl Committee make the following recommendation to the Natural Resources Commission:

·	Three separate zone openers.

·	Duck Season dates as follows:

Northern Zone - opening Saturday, September 25, and closing on November 23.

Middle Zone - opening Saturday, October 2, and closing on November 28, with a split season held January 1 & 2

Southern Zone - opening Saturday, October 9, and closing December 5, with a split season held January 1 & 2

·	Daily bag limits match those established by the USFWS.

·	Pintail season to be attached to the first 30 days of each respective zones season dates: 

Northern Zone  Sept. 25 - Oct. 24

Middle Zone  Oct. 2  Oct. 31

Southern Zone  Oct. 9  Nov. 7

·	Canvasback season to be attached to the last 30 days of each respective zones season dates:

Northern Zone  Oct. 25- Nov. 23

Middle Zone  Nov. 1  Nov. 28, and Jan. 1 & 2

Southern Zone  Nov. 8- Dec. 5, and Jan. 1 & 2

·	The 2004-2005 Goose Hunting Regulations mirror those of the 2003-2004 seasons, with the exception of any added days should the USFWS grant.



Sincerely,


Roland Fredrick Bell
State President M.D.H.A


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Thanks for sharing the info Roland -

See you tomorrow!


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Roland,

You should expand on MDHA's position on "daily bag".

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting a change to our current daily bag format. (UFWS allows for a 2 hen daily bag.) or did you mean carry on with the current/last years system? -Clarify please for the rest of the members. (You already know my thoughts on the subject!)


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Not to put words into Rolland's mouth. Not sure when he'll be back. 

If the feds offer two mallard hens as they have in the past. Then we go with that and whatever else they put on the table.


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

I would hope we go with one hen mallard. Personally, I try to not shoot them. I think I ended up with 2 hen mallards last season out of the 40 or so mallards that I shot. One was early in the season and the other was an accidental double.


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

Yep I dont see any reason at all to alow two hens. One is on acident two would just mean you are shooting them.


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## Camo Man (May 26, 2002)

I believe the whole country ought to be at one Mallard hen. But the first couple weeks of the season, in Michigan, I can see how many new guys make the mistake. For most of them the color is just not there.


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Taking three drakes to one hen. Does this fit in the QDM (Quality Duck Management) plan? Should we not leave the young drakes to survive to the age three or four years of age to pass on their superior genes? :lol: :yikes: 

I agree one should plenty! If you drop a hen in error the only way to learn is to be proof positive on the next! Let them come close.

One thing to remember, like the song. "You Don't Always Get What You Want!".


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

Quality Duck Management :lol: Don't give them any ideas. The next thing you know we will have tail curl restrictions :yikes: Nothing less than 3 curls is legal.


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## lwingwatcher (Mar 25, 2001)

Camo Man said:


> I believe the whole country ought to be at one Mallard hen. But the first couple weeks of the season, in Michigan, I can see how many new guys make the mistake. For most of them the color is just not there.



When you have late hatches....more folks than just new guys shoot what flies cuz it is nearly impossible to tell the difference with late eclipse plumage...


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

As I understand it, the MDHA did propose 2 hen mallards/day in the bag limits for this season. The research is said to show that the Michigan mallard population is in a decline and that they make up a substantial portion of ducks harvested by Michigan hunters. Given this, what is the basis for MDHA to propose 2 hens /day? I am not a MDHA member. I have intended to join but will not if this is an indication of the feeling of this organization. Any input from MDHA Leadership or members would be welcome.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Bmac said:


> As I understand it, the MDHA did propose 2 hen mallards/day in the bag limits for this season. The research is said to show that the Michigan mallard population is in a decline and that they make up a substantial portion of ducks harvested by Michigan hunters. Given this, what is the basis for MDHA to propose 2 hens /day? I am not a MDHA member. I have intended to join but will not if this is an indication of the feeling of this organization. Any input from MDHA Leadership or members would be welcome.


Bmac,
You took the words right out of my mouth! When I read that postion of the MDHA, which I was also considering joining, I immediately thought the same thing......maybe I should reconsider if that's their position. It certainly isn't mine! Case in point is when we go to North Dakota each year, they allow 2 hens. Our self-imposed daily limit, whether in ND or Michigan is 0, but yes we have made a couple of mistakes here and there. Maybe MDHA should explain their position a bit, because from that short statement, I certainly can't agree with their sentiment...anyone from MDHA care to do that for me?


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## Ken Martin (Sep 30, 2003)

The position statement is what the majority of, not all, of MDHA. BUT unless you are a member.....your opinion means squat to CWAC and the NRC. DON"T consider joining, or intend to join... step up and join and go to a meeting and be involved in the position instead of wasting it on here. MDHA listens to there members and they feel they want the same chance at ducks as *everyone* else in the Flyway. Should you shoot any hens? That's philosophy not policy. Roland and myself and the rest of the state board will be at the Bay City Rec Center August 7th at 9:00am for a board meeting. Anyone is invited to come and express there thoughts. 

You can sit around and talk all you want on here. I choose to give my opinion to an organization that has a say in what happens. 


Ken Martin


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

I will give my opinion here or anywhere else I choose! And as for your opinion that the MDHA are the only ones who matter to the CWAC and NRC, that is BULLSH*T! :rant: IF that is the case, why did the "majority's " wish to harm the duck population of the state get shot down overwhelmingly by the CWAC? I did express my opinion to 2 members of the CWAC and guess what Ken, little old me without a MDHA membership, had my opinion listened to. 

As for joining MDHA, I will choose to spend my money on conservation organizations that will promote a healthy population so I and many future generations can hunt. I don't want anything to do with the attitude that the "majority" of the MDHA and its leadership apparently has. I know of a few current MDHA "members' who are also disgusted by the attitude of the organization and are no longer going to be part of it. 

As for the shooting of hens, I don't care if every other state can shoot 2 or 3, that does not make it right. When current science points out that our duck population is struggling and that a large portion of our bag is local mallards, common sense says to limit the taking of hens. Because many hunters are not well informed of this problem, those that are need to make sure it is policy. We need to be a leader in conservation and not part of the problem. From what I was told, a couple of other flyway states may follow our lead in limiting to one hen. 

I intended to be at the CWAC meeting but could not make it there. I do know that from know on, I will make it a point to be there, as a member or an observer, to ensure that organizations with attitudes like MDHA do not destroy my hunting opportunities. As for the meeting at the Bay City Waterfowling show, I have no intention of attending. Feel free to express my thoughts to Roland and the rest.


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## orion (Apr 8, 2002)

Well Ken I am a current member of MDHA and was never asked if I thought we should kill two hens. 

I was amazed to see an organization that I thought was conservation oriented take such an adament stand for killing two hens. Even after Barb Lercel stated that Drakes outnumber hens 3 to 1, and Michigan mallard populations are declining. I dont think the best interest of the ducks or the members of MDHA is being represented well at the CWAC by MDHA. Thank goodness there are many conservation minded people on CWAC to diffuse these ideas. Besides Michigan is not the only state that imposes a 1 hen limit. You have no good argument for this.

My membership will not be renewed in MDHA.


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## stacemo (Oct 23, 2003)

I guess posting you opinion on this website does matter :rant:


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Healthy debate is fine and encouraged.
Remember that we all carry the same "weight" in this forum 

I would also remind everyone that under no circumstances will personal attacks be permitted from anyone- regardless of membership, occupation, social standing or appointment. (Moderator(s) included).

Feel free to vioce your concerns or opinions, but don't run anyone with personal attacks. It won't be tolerated.

keep the thread clean.


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Don't you feel the majority of hard core waterfowl hunters think as you about an all drake bag? The average Joe that hunts a few times a year may go out and shoot a few hens, but I just don't think the majority of of seasoned hunters do. When the points system gave way to a limited bag. I was surprised to find hunters coming back to the sport. Pheasant were getting harder to find and my duck ID is not very good is the reason they gave so I gave up ducks because of the points. their birds and they shoot. They didn't realize that they still needed to ID the birds! 

What about the the species of waterfowl that fill out a complete daily bag, Black Ducks, Pintails, Gadwall, Teal etc. Do you only shoot drakes? If not. Why? Shooting more of the off birds would take the pressure of the mallard. Maybe a full limit is not important. Stop with two birds.

The Feds set the limits and season guide lines. They must not be privy to the same info we see. Why is that? 

The problem is not the limits. *IT'S HABITAT!* MDHA as well as other organizations have done much to improve that aspect of the problem. It just happens to be one of the groups with a more grass root membership. One where you get dirt under your nails. Not for you? There are others popping up. Find one! Get involved! Weather or not the group is of one mindset will only be determined by those that are active and stay involved.


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## orion (Apr 8, 2002)

I sure would hope everyone would try to shoot an all drake bag. 1 Hen is fine for mistakes that will get made. And as far as any other species, yes I will do my best to pick drakes. Killing a limit is not what I am out there for. 

So, Frank if you agree that most hardcore waterfowlers are not going to kill hens on purpose. Why in the world would you want to kill two a day?????????

Believe me, I have A LOT of dirt under my fingernails when it comes to habitat work.....If you only knew.

Again I must ask, Why do does MDHA want to kill two hens a day after doing all this habitat work? Who is going to utilize all the increased habitat when we kill twice as many hens? There are plenty of drakes with pretty green heads to shoot.


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

orion, what makes you think I shoot one hen a day. let alone two. I don't target hens. *Why do the people that set the limits say the species can handle the pressure?* Bad intell?:lol: I think you should take issue with them.  You know yourself the amount of weight the CWAC has in setting limits and seasons. Even if the feds. like they have in the past offer up two mallard hens. I don't think we'll see it in this State.


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Novice hunters might wish to target a second mallard hen just as they can in many other states. Sharing waterfowl hunting and bringing new hunters into the fold is just a start to educating them to proper duck ID. If the rules become too difficult to follow many second harvested hens are left to lay or stomped into the mud.

As stated earlier 3 drakes for 1 hen. My personal experience of many years of hunting managed areas, I find many, many more hens than drakes! 3 drakes - 1 hen just don't happen. Not even equal except for early in the season when many birds are in the eclipse phase. These birds are being left instead of being included in the bag. IMHO


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Big Frank 25 said:


> Novice hunters might wish to target a second mallard hen just as they can in many other states.


Frank,
I would agree with that statement. But my feeling is that organizations such as DU, MDHA, Delta Waterfowl, or whoever, should set an example for all to follow. Many, if not a majority, of the members of these organizations are not novices, but are seasoned.....those who should certainly be skilled at ID. 

I also hunt many of the managed areas, and I agree that typically by mid or late season, the birds hanging in those areas are predominantly hens. I always attributed this to the fact that by then the drakes have been "picked over", and the birds staying in the refuges are heavy on the side of hens. You can always tell when a flight of birds comes through a managed area, because you all of a sudden see a lot of drakes again. That's just my opinion on that.

I'm not going to get in a major argument over this issue, but arguing that we need to allow 2 hens in the bag limit because of those who are novices doesn't cut it with me. Let's think about this a minute....this just isn't the kind of thing you just jump into without having a lot of gear, or friends who have it. It's not like deer hunting where you can pick up a gun, and with minimal gear you can be hunting. Waterfowling takes more of a committment. So let's say there are 50,000 people who actually hunt waterfowl in Michigan. I would guess a minority of those are "newbies"....maybe 5%. As I said before, allowing one hen makes sense because mistakes are known to happen. But two is unacceptable to me in these times. JMO.


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## orion (Apr 8, 2002)

Oh thats great! Teach the novice hunters and new people to the sport that it is OK to kill hens. Are we looking to bring in new up and coming Conservationists or Killers/Takers? We should be starting them out right on duck ID and a concern for the resource. 

Frank-In my prior post I said nothing of you in particular targeting one or two hens a day on purpose. That was not my intent to point a finger at you directly. More of a question as to why MDHA condones or supports this?


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

orion said:


> Oh thats great! Teach the novice hunters and new people to the sport that it is OK to kill hens. Are we looking to bring in new up and coming Conservationists or Killers/Takers? We should be starting them out right on duck ID and a concern for the resource.
> 
> Frank-In my prior post I said nothing of you in particular targeting one or two hens a day on purpose. That was not my intent to point a finger at you directly. More of a question as to why MDHA condones or supports this?


So as they know it is allowed. Not to teach! Teach them the alternative what many have practiced for years. Drakes! This will only come in time. Many of the birds are wasted! In order to bring new into the sport, relaxing of the rule little might help. Seems there has been the same number of waterfowl hunters for years.

orion, no harm no foul.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Love the passion that everyone has for the sport - it's great to see, just don't let it get away from you.

I would also encourage everyone to investigate for themselves what's going on flyway wide and nationally to educate yourselves further.

You just might find it enlightening.

want to duck hunt the "rice and duck capitol of the world" in Stuttgart? - three mallards, only one can be a hen in the Bayou Meto (and you'd be lucky to get that!)

Wi, IL, Oh all are have one hen limits (minn has two - just speculation on my part, but It's probably due to the fact that they like to start as early as possible and hen/drake hard to distinguish at that time.)


---------------------------------------------
side note on goose regs.

(one thing I would caution is that "all is not as it appears" in other state regs.

If you see info for a state that says: "2 geese/day running continously for 60 days through oct/nov/dec..." look for the fine print. They are under a quota system just like we are - we just manage it differently.
In Illinois, if/when they hit zone quota... they're done. doesn't matter if "on paper" they have 45 days left... they're done. period. they also have to call in everybird they shoot within 24 hours of harvest. (I know because I did it for 6 years.)

In Michigan, We tell the NRC up front that we can control our harvest by limiting days and provide data to support that position.

I think you should also know that they (other states as well) are going to have unusually low quota as well this year. I hear only 8K for southern Illinois (A.K.A. - "the Goose capital of the world".) how would you like to go to the "goose capitol of the world", shoot one bird or find out your trip is cancelled because they already reached quota?

Let's shoot Wisconsin. well, they operate on a permit system. You get so many permits or tags (I believe it was 4 last year even during the "liberal" goose season for the Horizon zone) and then you're done... for the whole season.

believe it or not, the data shows that second only to Minn, Michigan kills more geese than any other state.

Not preaching, just suggesting that we look beyond our borders. 
Grass might not be as green as we think it is.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Ken Martin said:


> The position statement is what the majority of, not all, of MDHA.......MDHA listens to there members and they feel they want the same chance at ducks as *everyone* else in the Flyway.
> Ken Martin


Thank you for the clarification, but I'm disappointed. I understand that this is the attitude of the majority of your membership, but the future of waterfowling depends upon conservation of the valuable resource. My opinion is that a top priority of all of the major organizations such as DU, MDHA, Delta, etc. should be education of it's members and the general public. DU for one openly promotes the idea of taking no hens. Now I'm not saying that taking a hen is a sin.....it is legal, and I've done it as well. But for a group such as yours to go on record for promoting the thought of taking two hens seems wrong to me. Being a long-time DU'er, I'm guessing you would not get the same attitude if you surveyed all DU members...just my opinion based upon 20 years of involvement with that group. Call me "holier than thou" if you wish, but I just can't help feeling that we're sticking our heads in the sand if we say "other states can do it so we should too". That isn't helping solve the long-term problem. Maybe we need to educate those other states instead of simply saying "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander....no pun intended?

And as for getting involved, I have been very involved over the last 20 years or so. As a past committee chair for many moons, I have helped raise around $200,000 for waterfowl conservation. I could not attend the meeting at the RAM center because I was out of state, but in the past I have taken the time to in person, or otherwise, make my voice and opinion heard to those that make decisions. Yes it's very important to provide input....couldn't agree more.


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## watchdoc (Jun 28, 2004)

Roland Bell is the President of MDHA and is the only Spokesman as to position statments. 

It is very difficult (impossible) to please all as to group positions so it is easier to adopt a general one like supporting whatever the Federal guidelines are. I sure hate to see all the good done by MDHA chapters around the State pushed aside by this. It is a Blue collar organization that works very hard for all WATERFOWLERS and spends alot of money and man hours every year.


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

watchdoc said:


> Roland Bell is the President of MDHA and is the only Spokesman as to position statments.
> 
> It is very difficult (impossible) to please all as to group positions so it is easier to adopt a general one like supporting whatever the Federal guidelines are. QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## watchdoc (Jun 28, 2004)

I have always supported the one hen position. The guide I hunt with in ND has always had his groups start shooting 15 minutes after shooting time so that you could identify your birds better.
As to our Goverment being wrong I just never thought it could happen.:lol: 
I think we all need to go hunting! This off season just gives us to much time to think!


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## orion (Apr 8, 2002)

Watchdoc- Just so you know Roland Bell is the MDHA rep on CWAC. He was the one who started the two hen thing.


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## duckcommander101 (Jan 14, 2003)

I myself prefer the one hen limit.
I try to shoot all drakes but sometimes things happen and hens also hit the water.
With my sons I allow them to shoot hens, but after the first day or two they are after drakes only.
This all being said is for mallards.
For divers we also try to go all drakes, Buffies and Redheads are easy enough but we all have a tough time with Bills and we rarely get a crack at any Ringers (not to mention the "has eluded me thus far" Canvasback!)
If the mallards taken here are predominantly homegrown so to speak it just makes sense that if we want to shoot mallards we would make it a point to take it easy on the hens so we can do just that.
Besides, there isn't a prettier picture than a pile of drakes at the end of the day!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

dc-
Sounds like we would get along just fine in a duck blind  . As far as Cans, I took my first drake Can last fall in North Dakota. One pothole was absolutely full of Cans, Redheads, 'bills, plus all kinds of puddlers. We specifically targeted the Cans because I too was after a nice full-color drake. Needless to say, he's at the Taxidermist's as we speak


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## duckcommander101 (Jan 14, 2003)

Just Ducky,
I was tending for one of my hunting buddies last fall on the one day the Cans were here in force.
I can tell you this, watching from a couple hundred yards is cool, but man I wish it was me in the MLB then!


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## Ken Martin (Sep 30, 2003)

I would like to apologize to *orion, bmac, just ducky* and others for my comments about thier opinions. My statements were not made in the best interest of *Michigan Duck Hunters Association* which I love and feel passionate about. My statements were made because I know that Roland Bell has limited access to the web and felt the need to speak up on behalf of MDHA while others were questioning the organization's worth. I belong to only 4 conservation organizations because I am intimately active in 3 of them and the fourth is not a hands on group but is vital to wetland habitat in North America.

For those that wish to quit MDHA because of the the statements here that we wish to "decimate, adamently kill, excessivly killing", of hens. Become *MORE* involved instead of just giving in because you don't agree with MDHA. We strive to be an organization that is hands on, grass roots, informed, AND pro active. Who stepped up to keep the tradition of the Michigan Waterfowl Stamp program....MDHA. Even through the years it cost us money to produce it. Has every one here purchased or obtained the actual stamp each year since the DNR went to electronic licensing? This organization does more for Michigan waterfowl with less resources than most. Here in Bluewater we took 28 kids hunting last year for the youth duck hunt and IF we can get hunters to help we will take more. We organized, funded, designed, and built a handicap access in Harsens Island Wildlife Management Area. We edcuated 1500 kids in one day at Huron Pointes Heritage Days last year about waterfowling and wetland habitat in Michigan. We will be there again this year.

When I was at the last board meeting it was brought to our attention that the decline coincided with the start of the 3 openers and the decline in precipitation. The openers are something that was and is acceptable to the majority of hunters. It makes Michigan a 74 day season state not just 60. One thing I hear over and over by all participants is "ID". Maybe we should start hunting at sunrise or a half hour after? I hate the idea of a hen or eclipse drake that is wasted if we cannot have at least one hen in the bag. Too many times, by seasoned waterfowlers, this has happened. Our managed areas could be in peril because of this very thing. Trust me though, MDHA will be there fighting for the areas where hunting is not in the mission statement of other groups. I am again only trying to show what MDHA does that most are unaware of.

Again I *LOVE* this organization and I *CHALLENGE* everyone to join it and be the most involved, inforned, and gratified waterfowlers in the country.

Ken Martin


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

sunrise to sunset... that would help a ton... I would fully support that idea..


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

Thanks Ken for the response. As an educator, I appreciate the time spent bringing youth into our sport. I only hope the duck population stays viable so they can hunt as we have. This is why I am so opposed to the idea of 2 hens/day. We owe it to them and the resource to be good stewards. 

I have read and heard of what MDHA does in various places for habitat and I appreciate that also. For MDHA's sake, I do hope Roland Bell is able to come on and explain the MDHA position and how it was determined. The MDHA members I have talked to, granted a small percentage, are not in agreement with the position and were not asked for input. As I said before, I would hate for this to threaten all that has been done by this organization.


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## thebellman (Mar 7, 2002)

Well, Well, Well! The forum is awake.

As Ken stated I have limited access and time to get on forums.

I guess I will try to explain the position statement, and remember that is all it is a position statement.

MDHA asked to mirror the guidelines of the USFWS.

The recommendations are just that recommendations!

We (the State Board of MDHA) meet 4 times a year, and each chapter is to send its executive board and chapter reps. Like most conservation organizations we find 90% of the work is done by 10% of the membership.

At our state board meeting held in May each chapter was asked to express its memberships position on all of the duck hunting regulations, and collectively we voted (as a democatic organization) to have our states daily bag limits mirror those set by the feds.

We (MDHA) have the feeling that putting more and more restrictions on Michigan Waterfowlers is not a solid choice. Michigan's total harvest of ducks is not even in the top ten in the country. 

MDHA took a position on the "robo duck" that we would only support a flyway wide ban on the use of such devices. 

I guess what I'm trying to state is that MDHA wants the most for our waterfowlers, that is why we are attempting to get a teal season again in this state. That is why we strive to work with the DNR on habitat improvements, duck and goose banding, and DNA studies of goose parts.

I want to tell you that there are 19 reps on CWAC, and it is by no way MDHA decision. I do not want anyone to leave MDHA or to pass up the opportunity to become a member of our organization. I would rather here from those who have a difference of opinon, that is what makes hunters a strong group. We all have a difference of opinon, yet when it matters most we tend to pull together.

Again, I will be at the Saginaw Bay Waterfowl Clinic on Aug. 7 & 8. If you can find the time to get up there to this event please stop by, I would love to hear yur opinons. I posted our recommendations as a curtosey to let waterfowlers know what is going on. I think before Branta and I posted information on CWAC few waterfowlers even knew of its existence.


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

Thank you Roland for coming on to explain the MDHA position. I guess my friends who are members need to contact their local chapter leadership and voice their disapproval. 

In terms of MDHA not wanting to place more restrictions on Michigan Waterfowlers, what will the position be when the duck populations are lower and we have a moderate or conservative recommendation from the feds? I feel we need to be proactive and do everything we can to keep numbers up now. Killing hens is not good for the population. One/day for an occasional "oops" bird, otherwise it shouldn't happen if we want to continue to hunt as we have.

As for us not being in the top ten in harvest, I didn't know it was a competition? I would much rather know that I will be able to hunt ducks in the future than try to out kill the duck killers down south. 

Robo's? I have one, I use it sometimes. Some days I think it works, others I know it doesn't. No problem if they are banned.

Early teal season? I'm not sure I'm for that either. I guess I don't see the numbers where I hunt to make it of value to me. I see far more in the spring. I don't know. If hunters can't tell drake mallards from hens, can they id species any better?

I do appreciate much of what MDHA does/has done. I guess I'm just too passionate about the sport to tolerate anything I see as a detriment.

Thanks again and have a great season. 

P.S. Don't shoot the hens!!!! I had to say it :lol: :lol: :evil:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

I too appreciate the fact that Ken and Roland both came forward once again to further explain the position of the MDHA. This topic reminds me very much of the debate in years past about deer baiting, which got very heated. As many of us know, there is a faction of deer hunters who know no other way to deer hunt than to sit in a shack over a bait pile.....that's how they were brought up, and that's what they know. Although I was not brought up that way, and our group has never baited, as long as it was legal, I was not about to criticize them....just not my cup of tea. The subject of shooting hens is similar to me. If it's legal, I can't overly criticize those who actively shoot them....just not my cup of tea. Once the seasons and bag limits are set, the argument is over in my mind. But I will  vocally oppose setting seasons or bag limits which promote a philosophy that I believe to be detrimental to the resource. I did the same regarding deer baiting years ago by speaking with the DNR and the NRC, and attending some hearings on the issue.

I completely understand what Ken and Roland are saying about representing the majority of their membership....it is a democratic process....that's what this country is all about. Couldn't agree more with that. But I would also like to hear that the MDHA is very concerned about this attitude among their membership, and that they are proactively trying to change that attitude. I'm not hearing that, and that bothers me. I still feel strongly that all of the representative organizations have a responsibility to inform and educate their membership about the need for conservation of our precious resources. It's easy to take the attitude that we should do what the other states do. But who's to say they're right? I believe Michigan should set the standard.....not follow the rest of the pack. Again, to me it's all about education.

I applaud the MDHA for their grass-roots local habitat work. To me, they are very similar to Pheasants Forever, another organization which I have been active in. My feeling is that all of the various organizations have their place, whether the main focus is fund-raising, or habitat work. But I will always feel that *all  * of these organizations have a responsibility to protect and conserve our resources. The habit work is an example of that. But it's only part of the big picture. Promoting the idea of shooting fewer hens is another important aspect. JMHO.


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## stacemo (Oct 23, 2003)

Personally I was offended at the statement that expressing one's opion on this website was not effective. But in reading the post I could also sense that what the writer was trying to say is that we all need to get more involved. I appreciate the apology, thank you. And Branta, thanks for your calming input.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

There is data available that tracks historical harvest by week in the state. I don't have it in front of me, but there is obvious spikes in the openers and then another the last week of oct/early nov coinciding with the bulk of the duck migration.

there's data out there that also shows the average bag, hunter days, harvest at the GMAs/trip/gun. (they make that distinction as you're right, visits to GMA tends to go way down and subsequent total harvest goes down. but what spikes is the number of ducks shot/person. i.e. those that go generally have good shoots later in the season).

Your "season break" idea was also voiced by a gentleman I polled in Wisconsin. He's fine with one/day but then asked maybe they should allow 2/day later in the season when the migration is in full swing. It's at least "worth fleshing out and discussing further.

I'd like to hear some thoughts about that.

-------------
agreed my example is over simplified. kinda "best case" scenario. because you can shoot 2, doesn't mean you will. Agree completely. I think it's also fair to say that because you can shoot two doesn't mean you won't still find those mucked hens. Remember, this was part of the justification for 2 hens by some. that point of indecision or the not knowing what it is by the hunter will exist on "bird three" just as much as it exists today on "bird two".


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## Trippin' Dipsies (May 7, 2003)

Just my 2-cents....

The 30-day restriction on pintails (in Michgan) is really pointless. The only location that holds any numbers is Harsens. But if we are really concerned about the pintail population, wouldn't it make sense to hold off the pintail season until the second half of the season (maybe to follow the canvasback season)? At this time of the year there are usually still a pretty good number of them around. With this, we should be able to determine a drake from a hen and opt for the drake. Additionally, this would help fill the "odd-ball" duck which are often hard to come by in the later part. In the early part of the season there are plenty of teal, some woddies, and a handful of gadwall & widgeon to fill the odd-ball slot.

As for the two hen mallards a day....we have nor never will see that in Michigan (thank goodness). If the day is that slow when a group of four hunters fill a 8 duck bag limit of hen mallards...then you should fishing.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

You really have to wonder how many juv. drakes are confused with hen's and marked as so on peoples score cards? To illustrate the point, about 20 years ago I was at the Fish Point morning draw. After the draw, a guy walks up to one of the Points staff, reaches in his pocket and pulls out the head of a hen shoveler. "I was wondering if you could tell me what is wrong with this hen mallards bill" :yikes: 

Then, there was the guy I was telling you about before, where on leaving the launch asked him how he did. He said great, we shot x,y,z duck's and 4 Ruddies. Now, I've shot an occassional Ruddy, but they are rare enough that when someone has 4 you want to see if any are sporting plumage worthy of mounting. So we procede to jump out of the truck to take a look. Proudly he displays 4 White Wing Scoters and proclaims them to be Ruddies. Now this was a guy that hunts quite a bit and didn't know what he was doing. 

I guess I'll add that to the list of things I want to know when I die. "How many juv. drakes have been shot over the years and mistaken for hens?" It'll go right next to, "How many deer have passed within shooting distance that I never saw!" :lol:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

_


Trippin' Dipsies said:



Just my 2-cents....

The 30-day restriction on pintails (in Michgan) is really pointless. The only location that holds any numbers is Harsens.

Click to expand...

_Trippin'-
Not so.....two years ago we got into TONS of pinners at Shiawassee, and also up on the bay during about a two week period. One afternoon at SRSGA we actually had flocks of 10-15 pinners coming right in, and that happened most of the afternoon. They were beauties....the only time other than in North Dakota when I can recall seeing flocks of pinners....and one of the only times I've seen such full colored birds in Michigan. We're still talking about those hunts. But each season we see some here in mid-Michigan at various times. When they're legal, I typically get a few here and there. So I think there are more around than you think.

And regarding holding off on two hens until the flight birds come through, I guess I'd be more favorable to that idea than just allowing two all season. Problem is can we ever be sure which birds we're shooting here? I suppose we can be fairly sure. It's a good thought though.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> Russ, the question then becomes what percent of the 58% were shot opening week? I would guess quite a bit.
> 
> What I've been getting at is, since we gear the goose season to control local vs migratory geese, is it to far fetched to do the same for mallards?
> 
> ...


TSS Caddis-
One place that the "average joe" would get a chance at two hens would be hunting the managed areas....Harsen's, Shiawassee, etc. If you hunt them at all, you know that after the early shooting, a lot of the drakes are "picked over", and the birds hanging in the refuges are heavy on the side of hens. Sometimes there are days at the managed areas that all you see is hens...can't find a drake if your life depended on it. We've always said, right or wrong, that this is mostly due to guys selectively shooting drakes...a good thing in my book. But it can be frustrating, especially for some rookies or inexperienced guys, until a flight of birds moves in and you get some more drakes in the mix.


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Branta said:


> here's the over simplification part.
> 30 hens pass over you barrel ten times you're out in the field. You clip your 10 hens. 20 could come back to michigan next spring to raise broods.
> 
> 2 hen scenario. only 10 come back.
> ...


To much competition for the same nesting habit might be detrimental to nesting success. Is it possible the biologist have numbers that have determined the acres of favorable nesting areas and the number of successful broods that could be reared there. 

They have reasons for setting that two hen limit. WHY? Why is it that all of you seem to feel that the biologist are wrong? 

Many birds ARE being wasted because of the lack of a second hen and they ARE just as dead! (MO)


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

For years we argued to people of the state of Michigan to put the decisions concerning the wildlife into the hands of the biologists and not in the hands of the legislators. Seems that some of those that utilize the resources don't have much faith in those supposedly in the know with all the facts and all the studies. The biologists!

Those that do are uneducated! :lol:

Why not have all the birds return and sit the season out?


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Frank, I thought we'd never get here- "_...state of Michigan to put the decisions concerning the wildlife into the hands of the biologists_." Whew! we finally agree!!!

Our state biologists recommendation (even prior to the CWAC mtg) was calling for a one hen bag.

(as it was for Wisconsins biologist, as it was for Illinois, Ohio...)

-----------
I don't dispute habitat carrying capacity thresholds at all. my example (as I stated) was a generalization, an overly simplified, grossily oversimplified way to digest a complex problem. we could talk about habitat juxtaposition requirements, habitat biometrics, alluvial floodplains, the 50/50 hemi marsh, ...whatever all day. (personally, I'd love that! It's been a long time!)


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

Big Frank...MICHIGAN biologists are saying we need to protect the local hens. The Mississippi Flyway covers a huge area. What might be acceptable in one area is not in another. The feds propose the season and states can choose to be more restrictive but not less restrictive depending on individual needs. I don't know how else to explain it. Our mallard population, as well as many other duck species, are not doing well. Many factors contribute to this, many out of our control. The bag limit is within our control. Why is it a bad thing to try and increase the population without having to do something as drastic as eliminate hunting them for a season or two?

I don't honestly know what the impact of allowing a second hen would be. Would some hunters now shoot 3 and still leave one behind? Would hunters that tried not to shoot any hens before now automatically shoot one as they have one "left"? I don't have the answer but I also don't want to find out too late. It is not that important to me to shoot limits. 

In terms of "waste", biologically speaking the hens "left" in the marsh probably do far more good for the wildlife eating them than they would for we duck hunters. If anything we "waste" much more of the birds we take home unless you eat the whole duck, and I mean whole. :yikes: 

Also, how can you be sure that every hen you see in the marsh was left intentionally? Have you never had a bird go down and not be able to find it, even with a good retriever? Ever have one that you know you hit but it doesn't fall, at least not within your sight? (That brings up a whole different thread. Do you count them in your bag anyway? :evil: )

I'm sure some hens are left intentionally but probably not all. I feel very strongly it is a poor reason to want to be able to kill 2 per day.


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

....and those biologists working for Feds know nothing?


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Try this one more time, then I'm done as a "poster" (I don't know what else to say on this subject)
I will just take to overseeing/moderator duties to ensure this thread continues to stay clean. So please continue to post away if you need to continue to air out the subject.

my last suggestion for all would be to contact the DNR lansing office directly and voice your pleasure/displeasure with their management practices. If you're not satisfied with the dialog here, then hear it directly from the horses mouth.

I think the general response you'll get from them is a _spiel about the concern for GL mallards. something to the effect that "officially,we don't know that one vs. two hen will play heavily into the pops recovery, but that if you're going to hedge your bet, you play conservative vs. a more liberal bag._ - now that's just me talking. I'd suggest you find out for yourselves.


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

thebellman said:


> ·	Daily bag limits match those established by the USFWS.
> 
> ·
> 
> ...



I've been waiting for "DIS" to come out. Why ask the state? They (the State of MI) dose not and never will control the bag in the flyway. The guide lines are set by the USFWS and the states work within them. Why not ask the organ grinder instead of the monkey. The one that holds the leash. Or do you you need to "educate" the organ grinder too? 

A side note. Bmac, _"In terms of "waste", biologically speaking the hens "left" in the marsh probably do far more good for the wildlife eating them than they would for we duck hunters."_ Do you think there is enough left behind to hold the predators over till the following spring till nesting time? 

Or are you conservation minded enough to help? :yikes: :sad: :16suspect


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## Bmac (Jul 7, 2002)

Big Frank 25 said:


> Do you think there is enough left behind to hold the predators over till the following spring till nesting time?


Not all wildlife in the marsh are predators. Those that are play a vital role in the environment anyway. 

Frank, I also can see that nothing we say will convince you. That is fine by me, differences of opinion keep everyone on their toes. As an educator, I do have one question. Have you read "A Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold? If not, I will be happy to send you a copy. I believe it should be "required reading" for all who wish to enjoy the outdoors.


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## stacemo (Oct 23, 2003)

Bmac said:


> Have you read "A Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold? If not, I will be happy to send you a copy. I believe it should be "required reading" for all who wish to enjoy the outdoors.


I think I need to reread it! Probably read it when I was 14. Thanks for reminding me.
Stacemo


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## IAIM4GREENHEADS (Apr 10, 2003)

Chasin said:


> I could'nt sit here any longer.
> 
> The way I see it is this, if the USFWS says we can be allowed to take two hens and MI says we will cut that back to one hen thats fine but really does very little to help bring back the local mallard population. There are many more dynamics happening here as to the decline of the birds. If saving a hen ment so much in the overall scheme of things then where the he!! are all the pheasants??? Killing only roosters have done nothing to bring back the population. Habitat and preditors are the cause for the decline. We have only been able to take one hen for years and its done nothing to bring back the mallard population in our state.
> 
> ...


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