# Bullet Performance Question



## Kriiton (Dec 14, 2004)

My Girlfriend got her first Big Boy using a Muzzleloader a week ago Sunday. She was using a CVA Wolf 50 cal with 110gr loose FFG behind a Lightfield Alpha Gold 300gr Lead Hollow point bullet. The Deer was hit behind the shoulder, standing broadside, at 37 paces and the bullet never went completly through the animal:SHOCKED: It broke 1 rib and lodged in the meat between two ribs on the opposite side.
The bullet mushroomed very well and retained nearly 100% of it's weight ( measured with a gram scale ) when compared to a non fired round. My guess is that the bullet mushroomed on impact due to the large entrance hole, which looked like the exit hole from a 12ga slug?!
My question to those of you who have taken deer with a muzzleloader is: Is this kind of performance typical with blackpowder? From what I've been told in the past, Deer shot with a muzzleloader usually go down where they stand or make it a few yards before dropping. This deer never acted hit, he just bolted, but did drop in less than 100 yds.
I would have thought that he would have acted differently haveing just absorbed all the energy from that bullet, especially at that close range. Every deer I've taken with a Shotgun acted much differently and it was obvious that they were hit. Most being closer than 37 paces and a couple at 50+.
Mind you I'm not complaining. I guess I was expecting to see terminal results similar to or a step above what a Shotgun Slug ( Foster type )produces. 
What I saw at 37 paces is really making me wonder what I would have seen if it had been 100 paces instead?
Also, I've got another ML tuned in with 90gr 777 pellets behind a 240 gr lead hollow point. Being that it's a lighter bullet should I be concerned about it's performance at the 100yd mark? (assuming proper shot placement)

Thanks for any help/suggestions. I've got a lot to learn about Black powder and appreciate all the info I can get.

Merry Christmas All!


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## bps10ga (Nov 22, 2005)

Sounds like it did the job, hollow points are made to expand or mushroom, once the bullet expands it will give a much more broad wound channel and deliver most of it's energy in doing so. It is nice to have the exit wound for tracking purposes but with a well placed shot the animal will not go more than a 100 yards. I shot two does this year with my savage .50 using 120 grains of 777 and a 200gr. shockwave both hit in the same place one pass through and she dropped on the spot, second doe without a pass through dropped with in sight.


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## 454casull (Jan 6, 2005)

This sounds fairly typical for a soft all lead projectile. I've tried to make this point clear in some of my handgun bullet comments as well. If you use a projectile either w/ muzzle loader or handgun you need a pass through to obtain a good blood trail "unless" you can see the animal fall. Take your same scenerio but put the deer 1/4 away hard and that bullet may not have reached vitals. If you can limit yourself, or others to 50 yards and under broadside only shots then this projectile should be serviceable. However I would look into a much stronger bullet, stay around 300 gr, for the future. Remember a 45-50 caliber hole is a big one already. How big a hole (expansion) do you really need. In closing congrats to your GF and yourself for adding to our ranks and having a successful season.


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## deer69 (Sep 11, 2007)

i shoot powerbelts out of mine!!no problem


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## Eco (Mar 16, 2006)

My brother and i had a very good weekend in Clair to finish the season. We killed a couple real nice does and a spike that i thought was a doe. It had already dropped one antler and the one left was just two inches. It also fell off when i grabed it. The heavy snow must be speeding things up. 
We both used shockwaves with 2 pyrodex pellets. He was using the 250 gr in his Omega and i was using the 300gr in my Blackdiamond. We both thought the performance was excellent. All the deer went 40-50 yards, but with massive blood trails. Two had the top of the heart and most of the lungs really damaged. The last doe was a clean lung shot. I went to the 300gr Shockwave from the 240 gr hornady hollow point and so far really like the differance. The hollow point did the job, but not always good blood trails and full penitration. Switched up after reading many of the suggestions last year on this forum, Thanks! Found the 300's for like 40% off after last season at Gander and bought four boxes:evil:.


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## Kriiton (Dec 14, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I appreciate it. I think I'll get a hold of some of the " shockwaves " and see how they pattern. 

*454Casull: *You recommended keeping shots to a distance of 50yds when using the all lead bullets. Are you thinking that I could be asking for a cripple on my hands at longer distances, say, the 100yd mark? Proper shot placement is a given. Were very diciplined about the shots we take. It's either the perfect broadside for a heart/lung or we pass. We also prefer to have em nice and close, but I like having the option to stretch the range to 100yds and still achieve a clean kill.

Mama says Thank You for the congratulations She's planning to sign up here in the future and wants to post a pic or 2. She's definitly got a good story to tell!


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## 454casull (Jan 6, 2005)

That is exactly what I am recommending; however I will contradict myself here by stating that the expansion at 100 yards will be sig. less then at 50 due to the loss of velocity so penetration may actually be better at longer distances. I applaud your shot discipline. I personally like to see a through and through for all of my shot opportunities and with big bullets already I do not concern myself w/expansion. This also gives me the confidence to attempt shot opportunities other than the "perfect" broadside and still know I can reach the vitals. Muzzleloaders and conventional handguns are not rifles and we need to fully understand that fact. Encores and bolt action pistols using rifle calibers is a different discussion all together.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

deer69 said:


> i shoot powerbelts out of mine!!no problem


Uh oh...don't get that debate started up again...:lol:


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Kriiton said:


> She was using a CVA Wolf 50 cal with 110gr loose FFG behind a Lightfield Alpha Gold 300gr Lead Hollow point bullet. The Deer was hit behind the shoulder, standing broadside, at 37 paces and the bullet never went completly through the animal:SHOCKED:


If you want it to go all the way through, don't launch it that fast and/or don't use a hollow point design.

-na


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## Steve B. (Nov 22, 2004)

deer69 said:


> i shoot powerbelts out of mine!!no problem


I'm sorry!


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## steelhead007 (Nov 27, 2007)

not every deer just flops over when hit!! even when hit in the heart and lungs with a high powered rifle some deer still can run some distance.


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## Kriiton (Dec 14, 2004)

Nick Adams said:


> If you want it to go all the way through, don't launch it that fast and/or don't use a hollow point design.
> 
> -na


The load data on the back of the package of bullets listed the load combination that was used at 1625fps. When decreasing the powder charge for less velocity does a little go a long way? 
The lowest load combination shown is 100gr Pyrodex FFG = 1400fps. Does that sound accurate? (225fps for a 10gr decrease seems like a lot.)

Do the solid lead bullets deform much or do they act like a round ball and pretty much stay intact? I've heard that round balls don't deform much unless they hit a lot of bone mass.


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## 454casull (Jan 6, 2005)

A lot depends on the alloy and construction of the bullet. A typical mini or maxi ball needs to be soft so you can load it but the construction of the bullet help it maintain shape and drive deep. A shotgun slug is pretty soft as well and the faster you push it the more it will upset, and a soft lead pistol bullet depending on the point will either make a "non hole" or break apart driven to the velocities mentioned. Take into account shots that are on the real short side and the upset could be so great that penetration is compromised or the bullet could "fail". You have a bigger margin of error with a hard cast lead or jacketed bullet when it comes to higher velocities and shots that may be closer than you expect. I may be rambling a bit but I hope this gives you more info...


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Your bullet did not exit because of a combination of three things: pure lead, hollow point and terminal velocity. If you want it to exit you will have to change one of them. If you are committed to using that bullet the only thing you can change it terminal velocity. I think they would still be plenty effective at 1300-1400 fps muzzle velocity.

If it were me, I would change the bullet instead of the muzzle velocity. Stick with pure lead but do away with the hollow point (Maxiball, Maxi Hunter, Great Plains Bullet, etc)

-na


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## Kriiton (Dec 14, 2004)

Looks like there's a lot to choose from out there in the way of solid bullets Long, short, round nose, pointed nose, flat nose.......
*Nick.* *Casull.* Are there any particular brands,styles or weights that you could recommend for starters? Or if it's easier, any to shy away from?

I'm going to plan on doing a lot of experimenting between now and next year with different powder/bullet combinations. Would wet phonebooks work to give me an idea of what I can expect for bullet expsnsion or is there something better?

Thanks again guys, you've been a big help!


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## 454casull (Jan 6, 2005)

I have used any of the leftover 300 grain bullets that my Casulls do not like. I have tried some hardcast lead and the Hornaday 300 grain 45 bullets with great success. BTW I've re-visited the Hornady for the Casull and the guns and bullets are now on speaking terms. If you are not trying to make your ML a centerfire rifle some of the flat nose hardcast lead bullets make some mean holes and do impact the animal hard. Some times you just have to try a bunch of combinations until you hit on one. Hornaday,Speer, Nosler, Sierra, Barnes...all make excellent pistol bullets that will perfom well in a ML. Cast Core and Penn make excellent hardcast lead bullets.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I've found the .58 and .54 round ball shots right thru any deer. Then the deer run an exceptionally long way for just having had a large lead ball blowing thru both lungs. :lol:


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

385 Great Plains.... My Winchester muzzy loves them....Deer/Bear/Elk does the job.......


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## Critter (Mar 3, 2006)

I used the 200gr Shockwave this year in my Knight Disc Elite .50 cal. I had complete pass throughs from 20 to 140 yards. Good blood and the deer did not go far. In fact my last three I started aiming a bit higher and into the shoulder a bit more and got them to drop in their tracks. I think this is a great bullet for whitetails, they are expensive though. I am going to try the .401 200gr Hornady XTP at the range this year to see what kind of performance I get from them. Much cheaper and the XTP is a proven performer on deer.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Kriiton said:


> Looks like there's a lot to choose from out there in the way of solid bullets Long, short, round nose, pointed nose, flat nose.......
> *Nick.* *Casull.* Are there any particular brands,styles or weights that you could recommend for starters? Or if it's easier, any to shy away from?


A flat nose is generally better for hunting than a round nose, although when using very soft lead it should not make a lot of difference.

Length is related to the rate of twist in your rifle. Faster rates of twist (e.g. 1:28, 1:32) shoot a longer conical better than slower twist rates (1:48, medium to short conical; 1:60+, short conicals and round balls). Longer conicals are heavier and recoil will increase.

Maxiballs, Maxi-hunters, and Great Plains (Hornady) are all popular and easy to find, off-the shelf bullets. I cast my own and the Lee REAL conicals have worked well for me, but most of my shooting is patched roundball.

-na


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