# Michigan's storied Gun Dog lines.



## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

dogwhistle said:


> Andy is certainly "storied". and i think a lot of those banders choose the dog based on that. i think that banding results are more the knowledge and efforts and time of the bander than anything else.
> 
> ghost train had 2 sons, a grandson, and great grandson that were grand national grouse champions (as well as himself) and many other offspring and decendents that were champions. that is certainly a "line" it continues today in many dogs and would fit my definition of "storied".


Yes Ghost Train and Hy Kaliber Tiny= Ghost Star and Fascias Nicky= Stars Marathon Man had 36 trial wins the most of all pups produced by Ghost Train. Terry sold him to the Japs for $14,000. Andys Bandits Patches was out of Sun Bandit ( Moriahs Rising Sun and Kates Hello Dolly ) and Holtons Molly ( Stars Marathon Man and Holtons Babe ) All fine grouse dogs out of a very good line.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i first met andy a few years back. i didnt know who he was and was helping him fill out a ticket for the rgs dinner. someone called him by name and i threw the ticket away. you dont need a ticket when the chapter is named after you.

he's stopped coming to the dinners, its down a flight of stairs with no elevator. but he made the last banquet and is still sigining the orange hats with "andy amman chapter" on them.

and when the subject turns to gamebirds he's still sharp or was recently. a guy put on a slideshow about prairie chickens about 3 yrs ago and andy asked some knowledgable questions and offered some information.


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## happy bird hunter (Mar 24, 2007)

Chuck and Nancy Thurston breed English Setters with the Wicksal and Oldhemlock blood line. They are planning a litter for this year. You can reach them at 810 392 2111. For more information.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I guess it's all semantics. 

All of these Michigan dogs are very good dogs, I owned two of them, but to me "storied" in English Setters would be the Crockett dogs, Old Hemlock, Ryman, DeCoverly, Smith....kennels that have been around for a long, long time, and breeding that goes back a long, long way. Others would call them foundation stock. 

Andy, of course, was and still is legendary for starting the woodcock banding program, the first of its kind in the United States. But even so, mention Andy in the dog breeding world outside of the state of Michigan, even English Setter breeders, and you'll get confused looks.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

except for the "Crockett" grouse setters that Jack Stuart bred, none of those are "Michigan" bred dogs. and they really dont exist anymore, as far as i know, except as a name in a pedigree. and grouse trial dogs arent linebred as often as other types, their pedigrees tend to be more combination of different winning lines. you might see "grouseridge" a number of times on a pedigree but the dogs may not all be related. they use a number of outside sires besides their own.

stillmeadows jim was a michigan bred dog, multiple/natl grouse champion, that sired others and his decendents are still winning.

a couple names you mentioned, DeCoverly and Smith are kennel names, not necessarily lines. and others are generic names for types of dog; "ryman/old hemlock" are more equivilant to "grouse trial setter" or "all age setter" and arent really a "line".


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

DeCoverly is most certainly still in existence, and yes, sorry, to disagree, but all of those kennels followed specific "lines" of breeding. They bred specific types of dogs for a single result. To a lot of people, those are "lines". 

Ryman/Old Hemlock is not a type of dog, but dogs that have both the Ryman kennel breeding and Old Hemlock dogs as ancestors. 

No, these kennels are not Michigan dogs, but to a lot of people, when you think of really well-known "lines"...ie., "storied", they think of the foundation lines...er, kennels, er, breeders, whatever. Not breeders in Michigan that have only been around for one human generation. Outside of Michigan there's very few people who have ever heard of any of these kennels. With the exception of the Stillmeadow dog and the Ghost Train, again, the dogs from that line I've read about came from Burnt Creek in North Dakota...maybe there were two Ghost Trains? I wouldn't think so, but...

FI, Elhew is a "storied" name to me. Specific line of dog. 

Again, technicalities and different people's opinions.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

the topic was storied "Michigan" dogs.

Ghost Train and a host of dogs of that line were bred by Frucheys of Beaverton south of Gladwin. they are still breeding dogs and are well known in the trial community.

ghost train was campained to a grand national grouse championship by wayne fruchey in 1969.

jet train was his son and was owned ta novak of hope, mi and campained to a grand natlonal grouse championship in 1975 and later sold to burnt creek. that may be the source of your confusion.

and Stillmeadows Jim was a mich bred dog. also a grand national champion and i think 6x champion? he sired a and grandsired a lot of champions himself. RU Cant Go Wrong is out of a daughter of Stillmeadows Jim. i've got two young females by him- they are corkers.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> the topic was storied "Michigan" dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> .




Yeah, I have heard and read about the "national" lines but wanted to learn more about "Michigan" bred dogs, thanks to those who contirbuted.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

I think the Wicksall setters are a plenty well known line of dogs. They were developed by a couple brothers with a last name of Wicksall. One of the brothers daughters is Sally Downer who still breeds setters. 

Here in MN most of our best grouse gun dogs have at least a part of their bloodline coming from the Wicksall or MI DNR grouse dog breeding. I currently hunt three that are heavy in this blood. My favorite by Sally Downers Wicksall's Belle and Tom Prawdziks' Boyne River Bud. I've killed bushels of grouse over her points in the past decade. An earlier male dog that is now dead was even better and he was sired by Fontinalis Jake who was owned by Roy Chapin of MI crossed to my hunting partners bitch that went back to long gone dogs like Andy Ammann's Kate, Prawdzik's Big Rocky and the like. 

When it comes to producing grouse for the gun, this is the type of blood I want running in the veins of my bird dogs.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Look who is lurking in the shadows, welcome to M-S.com Jay.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay, Great information. Thanks Mike McDonald


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## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

Jay Johnson said:


> I think the Wicksall setters are a plenty well known line of dogs. They were developed by a couple brothers with a last name of Wicksall. One of the brothers daughters is Sally Downer who still breeds setters.
> 
> Here in MN most of our best grouse gun dogs have at least a part of their bloodline coming from the Wicksall or MI DNR grouse dog breeding. I currently hunt three that are heavy in this blood. My favorite by Sally Downers Wicksall's Belle and Tom Prawdziks' Boyne River Bud. I've killed bushels of grouse over her points in the past decade. An earlier male dog that is now dead was even better and he was sired by Fontinalis Jake who was owned by Roy Chapin of MI crossed to my hunting partners bitch that went back to long gone dogs like Andy Ammann's Kate, Prawdzik's Big Rocky and the like.
> 
> When it comes to producing grouse for the gun, this is the type of blood I want running in the veins of my bird dogs.


Same here  Having shot over Texas, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Kentucky and Minnesota bred dogs I'm glad I went with that breeding. A friend of mine hunted with andy and one of his first dogs back in the 50's and knows the line well. There have been alot of good decisions not only in the breeding but who the pups go to. With the way people whore out dogs over time I'm amazed this breeding is still around.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

if you go back 40 years, approximatly 10 generations with a group of dogs, there are 512 dogs in that 10th generation. 256 males, 256 females. mathematical fact.

of course some dogs are repeated, there are not 256 different males as a rule. but when you look at the numbers it's easy to see that's it's impossible for a single kennel to breed a line for that legnth of time without a lot of outcrossing.

Bob Wehle did do it to a degree, but he was pretty wealthy, had a lot of dogs at any given time and still did introduces a fair number of outcrosses.


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## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

Just a guess but I'd say 100 of 512 were culled


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Whenever someone mentions Andy in a thread I kind of cringe. 

I was fortunate to have become acquainted with Andy. I enjoyed our conversations and admired his knowledge and dedication to the resource. Through some luck I was able to acquire his Winchester model 21, 20 gauge. By the time I received it the gun had been upgraded, by the previous owner, to custom gun status by the late Don Allen of Dakota Arms. Long story short, one day when I was hunting I left it on my topper, drove off and lost it. 

Back to the MI/MN setter grouse dog connection. My history only goes back to the 1970's. The first dog of this type I knew of was Tordoff's Molly owned by the Dean of MN Grouse hunters Bud Tordoff. All accounts were that she was a really gifted grouse dog but as a field trial buddy once commented..."she moved like a Camel with a broken axle". Bud bred her to a local male dog owned by one of the owners of Gokey's which was once a famous local sporting goods store known for quality handmade boots. The male he bred to was named "Warriors Half Dollar" His line went back to famous Horseback Shooting Dog lines. Several good dogs came of this and some of those where bred back to local gun dogs and somewhere along the line a local grouse hunter/Forester named Rod Sando ended up with one named "Sando's Lars". 

Lars was a pre-potent dog and he produced a number of excellent grouse dogs. If you looked in his pedigree you would have seen numerous MI DNR type grouse dogs. If any of you remember the old TV show American Sportsman and watched it, in one episode you would have seen a grouse hunt with Rod Sando and Lars. Anyway...years later after Lars was dead Rod Sando became the Commissioner of the MN DNR. 

Another MI DNR type grouse setter that was bred in MN and ended up with a famous owner was a male named Douglas. I think he was bred by Sam Kirkwood but as a young dog he went to Leigh Perkins of Orvis. As I understand it he became one of the Perkin's favorite dogs. 

I know two other folks in MN currently that still have MI grouse gun dog blood in their dogs. That is Jeff Smith and Rick Peifer. I'm sure there are others with similar dogs but these two guys and the pups they have produced are probably the heart of it. That said, there has been much out-crossing and now they are probably as likely to be considered MN gun dog setters as anything else.

Rick is planning to breed his young female Katie to CH. Magic's Rock Balboa this spring and with that will dillute the MI influence even further. And so it goes.

Anyway thats a little more of what I know if my memory serves me right.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

everlast1 said:


> Just a guess but I'd say 100 of 512 were culled


? you cant "cull" them. that number represents the number of dogs in the last generation of a 10 generation(approx 40yr pedigree). they represesnt the sires and dams in that generation. the 11th has 1,024. it's simple mathematics, a geometric progression that goes backwards.

the point is, you cant start a strain of animals with a couple males and a very few females and maintain it without a lot of outcrossing. if you try to do that, in a very few generations, the offspring are highly inbred.

in some cases you maintain a single of few top sire lines. the male line on the very top of the pedigree all traces to one or a few sires. morgan horse all trace on the top to Justin Morgan. and thoroughbreds all trace to one of 3 arabs or barbs. but many many unrelated females were involved in establishing those breeds.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

My 2 cents on a Saturday morning.

BTW - Jay it's good to see you here.

I've met Andy half a dozen times. He's a great guy and did much for our upland birds.

I've hunted with many "DNR" dogs in MI and MN.

I've owned a dog 1/2 ghost train lines.

I've watched the Thurstons dogs work birds.

I've brokered several Stillmeadows pups to grousers.

Blah, blah, blah. I say the "blah" thing not as disrespect but more in the line that I consider "people" as normal people and not celebrities. 

In the end, there are some good dogs, bad dogs, and everything inbetween. I've enjoyed some of them more than others. Some were fast. Some were slow. 20, hell 30 years later, they are vastly different (good and bad) from the original dogs. 

In evaluating dogs, the last thing I'd consider is one or two dogs 5 generations back or who owned them.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

a dog 5 generations back is 1/32 of the genetics. or if you prefer, 1 dog out of 62 in a 5 gen. pedigree.

that was my point in my earlier post, it takes a lot of high quality dogs in a pedigree, a lot of depth, to prodcuce high quality offspring.

but if you see a sire producing high quality and winning sons, grandsons and even great grandsons then you have a true line and can expect better results from the offspring as a rule. just like any brand name.


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## gunnah (Jan 18, 2008)

A Michigan fieldtrialer was responsible for perhaps one of the most popular strains of pointing dogs in this country and it happened over a century ago.

It was David C. Sanborn of Baltimore MI who in 1880 imported from the R. Ll. Purcell Llewellin kennel in England a 10 month old pup that became a pillar of the breed known then as the Field Trial Breed, known today as Llewellin Setter. The pup was registered as Count Noble.

Sanborn was not very high on the then gangly pup but after an evaluation on prairie chicken on the prairies of Minnesota with the owner of the American Field; Dr. Nicholas Rowe he saw a diamond in the rough. 
14 month old Count Noble ran his first field trial Nov. 1880 winning first on prairie chicken and quail at the farms of Col. A. G. Sloo near Vincennes Indiana.

Count Noble went on to a number of other wins throughout the midwest and midsouth which were becoming a hotbed for the field trial sport.

Sadly David Sadborn died while training dogs in Tennessee. Count Noble was sent to Sanborn's longtime friend, Capt. C B Wilson in Pennsylvania where the dog was retired to hunting and becoming an icon as a breeding animal. 

Sanborn had a musically talented daughter and that Capt. Wilson contributed the stud fees from Count Noble to further her education and saw her turn out a talented concert pianist.

Count Noble was mounted after his death and was on exhibit for nearly a century at Pittsburgs Carnegie Museum, and more recently on loan to the Bird Dog Museum at Grand Junction Tennessee.

It was said by many that if your field trial setter does not go back to the great Count Noble, then he isn't a field trial setter.

Another Michigan sportsman /fieldtrialer that had a tremendous influence on the sporting breeds today is Arnold Burges of Hillsdale, Michigan who was a well known importer of the blue-blooded setters from England in the 1870- 80's. 
He is known for his book The American Kennel and Sporting Field written in 1882. 
Mr. Burges was the first in this country to organize a registry of pedigrees of canines in this country.
Today we have the AKC, and the FDSB, but it was Mr. Burges that got the whole ball rolling here.

Hoosier Bill


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Could that be Maryland, not Michigan? Reason I ask is because there is no Baltimore, Michigan...a NEW Baltimore, yes, but in the 1880's I would question whether it even existed. I know the US Army Corps of Engineers was diking the lake and doing other things at that time that eventually provided the high ground that is New Baltimore today, cause my grandfather was one of those who worked on that pretty phenomenal project, but I believe that occurred in the early 1900's...Mt. Clemens was the only high ground around until then. 

Not to take away from anything about Count Noble, tho, who was truly a storied dog...and one of those foundation dogs I spoke of.


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