# ??AR15, Twist rate, bullet weight, for deer??



## HTC (Oct 6, 2005)

I second the Barnes TSX recommendation.....great bullet.

Below is my daughter's first buck in Texas, she was 8 at the time.

Results of a .223 with a 1/7 twist pushing a 68 grain soft point, (I forget the brand of bullet). She cut the heart right in half of this little South Texas spike. Granted the deer was 80 lbs and not nearly as big as its' Michigan cousins but judging from the damage I don't think it would have mattered.

This was my friend's target rifle...the gun was filled with lead and weighed 23 lbs. When shot the gun would barely move. The forearm was resting on the blind window and I was holding the butt. She was sitting on my lap holding the grip looking through the scope...it was a pretty neat hunt. She graduates in a few days.


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

What weight of Barnes TSX? I can find the TSX in 45grain and the TSX BT in 70grain and that's it. 

Would 45grains be enough? 

I'm going to use my brothers SW MP15 to see how I like it this year. I believe that firearm is more suited to 556 but my brother says he's posting 1-1.5" groups at 100 with whatever cheap 223 he can find at dunhams on when it's sale.


----------



## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

From cabelas


----------



## HTC (Oct 6, 2005)

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/tsx-bullet/

Personally I would be comfortable with 53 grains and up depending on what your rifle likes. Those bullets are going to expand but not come apart like a varmint round. You will have an exit hole. Obviously only nice standing broadside shots would be key.


----------



## posigian (Oct 31, 2000)

Look at the 300 Whisper! Awesome caliber for both personal defense and its good for deer. Its now available in an AR platform but the Michigan Hunting guide states you can not hunt with a weapon whose max load capacity is no more than 6 (1 in the chamber 5 in the magazine) except for 22cal. 

So can you even use an AR rifle for hunting in Michigan?


----------



## GuppyII (Sep 14, 2008)

posigian said:


> Look at the 300 Whisper! Awesome caliber for both personal defense and its good for deer. Its now available in an AR platform but the Michigan Hunting guide states you can not hunt with a weapon whose max load capacity is no more than 6 (1 in the chamber 5 in the magazine) except for 22cal.
> 
> So can you even use an AR rifle for hunting in Michigan?


Yes... they make five round clips for them just for hunting.


----------



## hunthard44 (Feb 8, 2011)

You cant use a 223 for deer


----------



## hunthard44 (Feb 8, 2011)

Guess I should have look into this before I opened my trap. I guess it is legal


----------



## RyanV (Oct 7, 2009)

A 1/9 twist will stabilize anything up to a 69. A 1/8 up to an 82. A 1/7 will likely stabilize a 90, a 6.5 will stabilize a 90. All of the above will also shoot incredibly well with any bullet down to (and below) a 52 grain. My favorite is a Krieger 1-7.7 twist, i shoot 52s - 82s through it. 

Ryan (won the 2012 Michigan Service Rifle Championship Match) V.


----------



## cedarlkDJ (Sep 2, 2002)

RyanV said:


> A 1/9 twist will stabilize anything up to a 69. A 1/8 up to an 82. A 1/7 will likely stabilize a 90, a 6.5 will stabilize a 90. All of the above will also shoot incredibly well with any bullet down to (and below) a 52 grain. My favorite is a Krieger 1-7.7 twist, i shoot 52s - 82s through it.
> 
> Ryan (won the 2012 Michigan Service Rifle Championship Match) V.


Now that's coming from someone who knows!....ya think?
A very generalized pic.....










I have shot up to Black Hills 77 gr. Match HP (5.56) out of the BCM upper (1:7) with NO feed problems. I would not use 45 gr. for deer!....my opinion! ...but, then again. I have better stuff for deer than a .223 (5.56) but , I would not hesitate to use it if I had too! If it will take down a 3-500 lb. wild hog?...I think it will take down a deer?


----------



## RyanV (Oct 7, 2009)

77s Cycle well enough that the Army Marksmanship Unit trusts them. 






With a decent rifle, if you have a cycling problem its almost certainly a ammo issue (unlikely in factory ammo) or a magazine issue.

Ryan V


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

All great information guys thanks. However my venture this year changed over to a TC Contender 44mag pistol for my minimilist hunting venture this year. 

I've got a nice little nest that I plan to be perched in overlooking a river bottom that'll offer me a 100yd shot...plan to be laying out on my olive drab foam pad using my backpack as a gun rest. Depending on the temp, may be covered comfortably under a fleece camo blanket.


----------



## waterwolfhunter (Jun 26, 2011)

The hottest round out seems to be the MK262 Mod 1. Made by Black hills. Although a bit steep in price. Here is a bit of history.

More often than not, when the military comes up with something worth having, civilians have to wait 20 or 30 years before it hits the surplus pipeline and ends up in their hands. All those wonderful CMP M1 Garands, M1 carbines, and 1903 rifles come immediately to mind, as do the Korea-era packs and canteens I hunted and camped with as a kid. Occasionally, a unique or utilitarian product ends up on shelves and in catalogs at the same time it rolls out of supply depots.
And that is the case with some of the best 5.56x45mm NATO ammo ever to come in a battle pack. Black Hills Ammunition worked for years, with first the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit (AMU) and later the U.S. Navy, on a long-term project that resulted in MK 262 Mod 1. The project started out to develop ammo for competitors initially and morphed its way into the magazines of operators. Civilian shooters can buy that exact same roundit just comes in a much prettier boxfor improved downrange performance, accuracy, and lethality.
Black Hills President Jeff Hoffman has long described the company as either a big little company or a little big company that started with and specializes in .223 and 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition. At last count Black Hills cataloged 15 different new-manufacture .223 loads, three new-manufacture 5.56mm loads, 12 remanufactured loads, and several military-only 5.56 loads. The round count is in the tens of millions annually and includes everything from very frangible varmint ammo to heavy-for-caliber, long-range ammo.
In 1996 a retired Army officer approached Hoffman about pursuing a newly announced AMU ammo contract.
I told him we didnt know a thing about Army contracts, Hoffman said. However, the colonel did, and combined with the companys extensive .223 experience, Black Hills won the contract to produce 80-grain .223 ammo for 600-yard target work. The AMU wanted a certain velocity at a pressure that was within SAAMI specifications.

The MK 262 Mod 1 projectile is an open-tipped match (OTM) bullet, though it does not expand in the manner of a conventional hollowpoint. In fact, the hollow cavity is not there to induce expansion; its there to put the majority of weight towards the projectiles rear so that it is more stable in flight and increase accuracy. Because it is not designed to expand and cause undue suffering, that critical phrase in the Hague Conventions regarding ammunition, the Navys Judge Advocate General Corps approved the round for use in combat. The same reasoning was applied to the Marine Corps 62-grain SOST round (MK 318), also an OTM design.
When the bullet strikes soft tissue, the heavier base comes around and causes the bullet to yaw, or tumble. The hollow nose cone breaks off and often the bullet fragments at the cannelure. This happens across a wide range of the velocity spectrum, which is why MK 262 Mod 1 proved effective in SBRs in addition to the longer-barreled SPRs. M855or Green Tipammo was designed for battles with a body-armor-equipped army, hence the name Penetrator. On unarmored targets, it just zips through like it was designed to do. MK 262 was a better option for the enemy the military was fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, though the round obviously does not penetrate as much as M855.

Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/0...lack-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/#ixzz28Tqv5pMC​​


----------



## cedarlkDJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Ordered up a bunch of those from Black Hills last year. Just as accurate as the Hornady Match 75 gr. out of my BCM. They are loaded in the Zombie mags!..


----------



## fish_AK (Nov 10, 2009)

RyanV said:


> 77s Cycle well enough that the Army Marksmanship Unit trusts them.
> 
> USAMU Praslick wins 2011 National Trophy Infantry Team Match! - YouTube
> 
> ...


We used the 77gr lr jhp with colt m4's. They shot really good. Never any cycling issues. Fit in magazine fine. the colt m4's the army uses typically shoots 3moa or less (which is not very good but acceptable for a battle rifle) the 77gr lr shot much better than the 62gr green tips. The 77gr bullets were just loaded with a more consistant charge (less vertical stringing) 

Ill have my son use my stag ar in a couple years. I will use either a barnes or partition on the heavy side.


----------



## aquaticsanonymous (Jul 1, 2006)

Last year I bought a Rock River Varmint a4 and shot the gun alot. I really like the AR 15 platform, and I put a very expensive scope on it. 

Before this rifle season, I was nervous about using it as my primary weapon for whitetails. After encouragement from a couple of individuals I know who are very good hunters, and work for a county sheriff's department, and msp, I decided to go for it. The fella with the most experience stated to use a nosler partition 60 grain. I have a 1 in 8 inch twist. I shot 4 deer with it this year. Every deer ran, all died from 30 to 80 yards and I watched them go down. Everyone had an exit hole. All were shot right behind the shoulder. 

Upon gutting the deer, my father, who hunts with a 300 mag, was shocked to see the internals were all pulvarized. 

If you need confidence, check out the AR15 forums and search "AR 15 deer kill pictures" There are tons of people doing it with sucess, as with anything, you have to put a good clean shot, but I believe that alot of shooters would be better with a smaller calibre because they would probably practice more, and thus be more accurate. 

I heard stories this season from people who wounded deer with 270's, 30.06's, and all sorts of calibres. I never had one run further than 80 yards with my 223. A good shot is a good shot, and similarly, a bad shot is a bad shot.


----------



## aquaticsanonymous (Jul 1, 2006)

The first picture is my first Rock River, a 1 in 9 inch twist. It likes 62 grainers. The second picture is my Rock River Varmint A4.

A final thought on the subject, I was also told to keep my shots within 200 yards, as velocity is the key with 223.


----------

