# Crybaby gets busted !!!!



## MOTOMAN91

I agree with you spartan, but i think the laws need to be changed. In a case like this, poaching to the extreme, the punishment should be more. Poaching 9+ deer should be more than just a slap on the wrist and a fine. I've seen people get way more time, fines, and punishment for alot lesser crimes. Poaching is bad for everyone, but when you do it for a profit, (he was selling the meat, that's why he poached them) the punishment should be more than what he's gonna end up with.


----------



## Burksee

I'll go along with tdduckmans opinion, I'll go one better, make *anything* related to the use/misuse (*including robbery) of a firearm a felony with the punishment to fit the crime. Maybe more people would think twice about how they're going to use a firearm.

In case any of you forgot firearms are not toys, in many cases the results of their use is irreversible. In this particular case and maybe when it&#8217;s a hunting related offense and because there was no human life taken or endangered that instead of "seizing" all his firearms the court or the LEA should handle the selling or auctioning of them off with the proceeds to be applied to his fines and then from that point forward he be disallowed from owning any firearms.



tdduckman said:


> Maybe if poaching a deer was a felony this would all be solved.
> 
> Felons cant own guns.
> 
> I have no problem taking his guns unlike most he has shown he is not able to use them correctly.
> 
> I say this as a NRA member and a supporter of the 2nd amendment.
> 
> 9 untaged deer is not a mistake it is grand larceny and I am a victim as are all of the other citizins of this state.
> 
> TD


----------



## Spartan88

MOTOMAN91 said:


> I agree with you spartan, but i think the laws need to be changed. In a case like this, poaching to the extreme, the punishment should be more. Poaching 9+ deer should be more than just a slap on the wrist and a fine. I've seen people get way more time, fines, and punishment for alot lesser crimes. Poaching is bad for everyone, but when you do it for a profit, (he was selling the meat, that's why he poached them) the punishment should be more than what he's gonna end up with.


I'd support changing the law to felony status, other states do it.


----------



## Buck Wild!

tdduckman said:


> Maybe if poaching a deer was a felony this would all be solved.
> 
> Felons cant own guns.
> 
> I have no problem taking his guns unlike most he has shown he is not able to use them correctly.
> 
> I say this as a NRA member and a supporter of the 2nd amendment.
> 
> 9 untaged deer is not a mistake it is grand larceny and I am a victim as are all of the other citizins of this state.
> 
> TD


 YES!!! EXACTLY!!! If poaching was A FELONY, as it should be treated, we wouldn't even have to respond to this post. If you head to some prestigous whitetail state, and are looking to shoot a 140+ class buck, how much are you willing to pay the outfitter??? I betcha it's more than $1000. Not sure what this doucher had hanging in his polebarn, but usually we don't take scrubbers into the taxidermists to mount, so I bet they were nice bucks. My point here is, these scum bags realize that if they shoot a big buck and don't get caught...they can hang it on the wall and tell some bull***** story the rest of their lives and somehow appreciate the buck hanging above their TV. For the mere fine of $1000 if they get caught, they're thinking... "So what? Load 'em up and lets go for a ride". The good guys of this state need to let our voices be heard and push for harsher penalties against poaching. Here's a topic for a later date that has been discussed at my workplace a few times before...makes you scratch your head. "If a van of 10 hunters in MI are heading to deer camp, how many of them are violators???" Think about it...all the laws/rules apply. Your thoughts?


----------



## Robert Holmes

The DNR should wise up and start charging fees like the high fence hunting reserves charge. I believe that if these were large bucks at all his restitution would be $30,000 plus. If this guy was selling these deer he could shoot three or four this fall to cover his fines and be back in the bonus. Michigan is one of a few states left where it can be very profitable to poach even if you are caught. That is why these guys go right back at it again and again. Makes you wonder how many deer he poached before he was caught.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

I thought this was going to be a thread on Cindy (Sidney) Crosby. 
http://store.thegoaliesden.com/servlet/-strse-818/Adult-Sidney-Crosby-Cry/Detail?sfs=e384ee92

Anyhow I don't think that the fines justified the crime. Penalties should be much harsher for a repeat offender.


----------



## WoW

MOTOMAN91 said:


> Thanks duckman, glad to see someone else feeling like i do about this. This guy stole alot more than $9000 worth of our game, he just got caught with those, not the ones he's been poaching for years. And yes, the pizzed off neighbors did turn him in, that's how he finally got caught. I still think he should be a felon, and lose his guns. He's proved that he's not responsible with them, he committed multiple crimes with them, therefor he shouldn't be allowed to continue to have the right to use them. It'll end up costing us taxpayers more money to prosecute him again in the near future. He'll do it again, just watch and see.


Any of you guys remember the four buck doe permits? C'mon....get real.....9 grand worth of deer. Hell, they give out block permits to eliminate the nuisance deer. Geesh...

And to think that a citizen should lose their right to own a firearm over poaching is crazy. Make it a felony...ok....do the same for undersized bass or too many walleyes or ducks in a day....hell, just take away every damned right that somebody has because they took a too many of your fur, fish, or game.

Let him do it again, maybe this next time the witnesses will be a little quicker to step forward. Maybe next time, if he gets caught with a gun, the penalties for hunting will be more severe.

Meanwhile, taking property that was not used in the offense is flat out BS and anybody that thinks differently needs to re-read the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United States of America.

The best way to discourage poaching is like people have said, bump up the cost of doing business but....don't trash the rights afforded in our Constitution in the process.


----------



## tdduckman

WoW said:


> Any of you guys remember the four buck doe permits? C'mon....get real.....9 grand worth of deer. Hell, they give out block permits to eliminate the nuisance deer. Geesh...
> 
> And to think that a citizen should lose their right to own a firearm over poaching is crazy. Make it a felony...ok....do the same for undersized bass or too many walleyes or ducks in a day....hell, just take away every damned right that somebody has because they took a too many of your fur, fish, or game.
> 
> Let him do it again, maybe this next time the witnesses will be a little quicker to step forward. Maybe next time, if he gets caught with a gun, the penalties for hunting will be more severe.
> 
> Meanwhile, taking property that was not used in the offense is flat out BS and anybody that thinks differently needs to re-read the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United States of America.
> 
> The best way to discourage poaching is like people have said, bump up the cost of doing business but....don't trash the rights afforded in our Constitution in the process.


 
He violated the law and I think the penelty is too light, if you are commiting a crime with a firearm, you should not be able to have a firearm. This is just common sense, and in no way threatens our 2nd amendment rights.

The 2nd amendment was not meant to protect criminals and help arm them. 

I think that poaching of any kind is often treated lightly, and 9 deer is not 1 duck over the limit.



TD


----------



## Supa Roosta

Let him keep his weapons.
Cut off his Gun, then neuter the rest of the family that carries the same DNA.
This way we don't step on our 2nd amendment and still have the dues (read-money) flow to the NRA!

That sound about right?

Man some of you guys are over the top on both sides!


----------



## WoW

tdduckman said:


> He violated the law and I think the penelty is too light, if you are commiting a crime with a firearm, you should not be able to have a firearm. This is just common sense, and in no way threatens our 2nd amendment rights.
> 
> The 2nd amendment was not meant to protect criminals and help arm them.
> 
> I think that poaching of any kind is often treated lightly, and 9 deer is not 1 duck over the limit.
> 
> 
> 
> TD


Did they prove that he committed the crime with a gun? Did they prove which gun or guns he committed the crimes with?

Lacking any proof that any/all of those firearms were used in the commission of the misdemeanor offenses for which he was convicted, please tell me what right LE has to seize every danged firearm in the house?

Hell, they don't know how he got them home either so maybe they ought to seize every vehicle on the premises while they are at it.

And, since he stored those deer on his premises, they may as well just take the whole danged property too, why not?

You guys just don't seem to understand the meaning of "unreasonable search and seizure" and the other protections that the Bill of Rights and Constitution were designed to provide to citizens from their government.

Don't take me wrong, I don't support poaching, especially poaching for profit rather than sustenance. But, look at it this way, anybody that thinks that somebody should forfeit personal property that was not connected to a misdemeanor offense seems to have more than one screw loose. 

Lord have mercy when the day comes that somebody loses Second Amendment rights because they killed two birds with one shot.


----------



## Spartan88

tdduckman said:


> The 2nd amendment was not meant to protect criminals and help arm them.
> 
> 
> 
> TD


Actually the Gun Control Act of 1968 is what stripped felons from firearm ownership, before that they got their guns back after they did time for the crime. Our founding fathers thought self defence was a God given right and it covered everyone in this country.


----------



## bone

as the law reads losing all of his property is not legal. hes gonna lose some of it though and for sure be back at it again next year or sooner. there were actually 15 deer total, 9 bucks. the rest were at his sons house

i hunt a little down caine rd from this guy and theres another guy just off the corner of caine and haynes shot 7 does in a week. from what i hear didnt tag any of them. total bs, weve taken to hunting elsewhere. deer have gotten scarce in an area that used to be good hunting.

my inlaws are on caine and my parents are just off of it. this area has several families/clans that poach year round. theres no way to get proof from hearsay, alot of people are very good at it. no evidence no crime.


----------



## MOTOMAN91

I FEEL YOUR PAIN," BONE," I'M JUST DOWN THE ROAD FROM HIM TOO. PEOPLE ON HERE DON'T KNOW THE ENTIRE STORY, OR THE PERSON/PERSONS BEHIND IT. HE'S A REAL TOOL, TEACHING HIS KIDS TO BE POACHERS, BUT HEY, EVERYONS SAY'S GIVE HIM HIS GUNS BACK! IT DOESN'T MATTER, HE'LL JUST GET SOMEMORE, OR BORROW HIS KIDS GUNS, THEN THEY CAN POACH TOGETHER, JUST LIKE THE THEY WERE DOING BEFORE. IT RUNS IN THEIR BLOOD, AND I DOUBT THAT IT'LL EVER STOP. OUR HUNTING PROPERTY IS FOR SALE NOW. HE CAN BE SOMEONE ELSES PROBLEM.


----------



## Petronius

tdduckman said:


> Maybe if poaching a deer was a felony this would all be solved.
> 
> Felons cant own guns.
> 
> I have no problem taking his guns unlike most he has shown he is not able to use them correctly.
> 
> I say this as a NRA member and a supporter of the 2nd amendment.
> 
> *9 untaged deer is not a mistake it is grand larceny and I am a victim as are all of the other citizins of this state.*
> 
> TD


It is a misdemeanor. The way I read the law on this, the $1,000 per deer is a reimbursement in addition to any penalties provided which includes imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $1,000.00 or less than $100.00, or both. Each violation would be a separate offense. The deer have no real monetary value because they can not be bought or sold, but the state placed a $1,000 value in order to get extra money in the form of a reimbursement.


----------



## Roosevelt

bassdisaster said:


> Id have to say you all sound like abunch of over the top who cares about his rights string him up and be done with it idiots!
> Only and ONLY the firearms used in the incident's can be seized by law, his wife's guns, his kid's guns are NOT subject to seizure!
> 
> Least we forget were all gun owners too, if you all decide that they can take whatever they want when they come and raid your place then you wont be so UP on seizing all of ANYONES GUNS!
> 
> BD


Good point, and a reason why our rights are dwindling every day. Very few people in this day and age actually take the time to stop and think things through, they just react and follow the crowd like the little obedient sheep that they are.

The guy, if guilty, should be thrown in jail, that's where our tax dollars should end. How much money is being spent on this case with all the forensic research costs and such? How much will the state get back? How much will the taxpayers lose? How many other cases like this have we thrown money at? Is there any return on investment?

It's not a good investment and will do nothing to prevent poaching in the future, but it may well serve to further take away our rights.


----------



## D Buck

I am not for poaching, with that said,I also am not so concerned with someone taking extra deer as I used to be . It seems to me that the state does the same thing, only puts a pricetag on it!!! The amount of doe tags a person can buy LEGALLY and the amount of block permits handed out makes me want to know why they are so concerned when someone kills extra deer!! The only difference is money. A vegetable farm near my land had a permit for over 50 deer 2 years ago. It is very evident that there are way fewer deer now in our area. I can not change the way the state does things . But I just don't see it like I used to. Because its legal doesn't make it right . D Buck


----------



## Petronius

*Detroit Free Press
Vassar Twp. man caught with nine deer jailed
9:46 PM, Jun. 22, 2011*

CARO  A man caught with nine dead deer in his barn has been sentenced to 15 days in the Tuscola County jail. 

John Cooper of Vassar Township was also ordered to pay $6,500 in fines Wednesday. His hunting privileges were revoked through 2014. 

The Saginaw News says Cooper has denied shooting the deer but still pleaded guilty to illegally having them. Authorities also seized 22 guns last November. 

Tuscola County authorities were having the deer carcasses tested to determine if the animals were shot with any of the weapons. 

Cooper will be allowed to leave the jail in Caro to work during the day.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110623/SPORTS10/110622064/Vassar-Twp-man-caught-nine-deer-jailed


----------



## MOTOMAN91

STILL NOT ENOUGH PUNISHMENT IN MY OPINION, BUT AT LEAST HE GOT SOMETHING. WE'LL SEE IF HE GETS HIS GUNS BACK, I'M SURE HE WILL EVENTUALLY. HOPEFULLY HE LEARNED HIS LESSON THIS TIME, BUT I DOUBT IT.


----------



## frenchriver1

If this Dude can get out of jail to work, why not let other criminals out of jail to steal cars and rob houses during the day? They, the criminals, consider that a "legitimate" way to make money...


----------



## Robert Holmes

frenchriver1 said:


> If this Dude can get out of jail to work, why not let other criminals out of jail to steal cars and rob houses during the day? They, the criminals, consider that a "legitimate" way to make money...


 Fair is fair. If you cannot recall a certain law enforcement official from the same area was allowed to work during that persons jail stay. That person was arrested for "poaching deer". I will not mention names, residence, position, or sex but it happened.


----------



## blahblah

This really isn't an issue of constitutional rights and gun ownership or felony status. This guy allegedly committed a crime with a firearm(s). There is no reasonable way for an officer to visually confirm which firearm was used in the commission of the crime so it isn't out of the ordinary for the officer to seize all firearms as evidence to compare through the lab to determine which of the guns was used in the crime. I'm sure any guns that are not suspect in this case will be returned in time after lab processing. In the end, if possible, this will be narrowed down to which of the weapons was used in the commission of the crime.

That all being said, it would be nice to see restitution based on "commercial" (deer ranch) value of a comparable deer. A trophy buck should be a higher restitution charge than a south zone doe that are given away with 5 tags per day. Just sayin'.


----------



## WoW

blahblah said:


> This really isn't an issue of constitutional rights and gun ownership or felony status. This guy allegedly committed a crime with a firearm(s). There is no reasonable way for an officer to visually confirm which firearm was used in the commission of the crime so it isn't out of the ordinary for the officer to seize all firearms as evidence to compare through the lab to determine which of the guns was used in the crime. *I'm sure any guns that are not suspect in this case will be returned in time after lab processing*. In the end, if possible, this will be narrowed down to which of the weapons was used in the commission of the crime.


 
What you are saying makes sense---sort of. But, the flip side of this becomes, is it reasonable to seize all firearms as evidence even though there is may not be any probable cause to believe that every gun seized was used to shoot the deer?

How many bullets did the DNRE even recover from the seized deer?

Absent any bullet fragments, how is any standard of proof going to result?


----------



## MOTOMAN91

THE TAKING OF HIS GUNS MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE COUPLE OF THOUSAND POUND BAIT PILE THEY FOUND RIGHT OUT OF THE BACK DOOR OF HIS HOUSE. I'M SURE THEY WILL FIGURE OUT SOMEHOW, WHICH GUNS WERE USED, AND SOME OF THEM WERE USED, TO KILL THESE DEER SO HE COULD SELL THEM TO HIS FRIENDS FOR PROFIT. HE'S SUCH A GREAT GUY, A ROLE MODEL FOR ALL HUNTERS TO LOOK UP TO.


----------



## johnhunter247

Hell from now on I am keeping a rifle in the car. If i see a huge buck its going down. Don't care if its September. For a thousand it will be the cheapest mature buck I have ever taken. Thanks DNR for the discount! Just kidding, this is absolutely rediculous. $6500 fine and 15 days in jail. No wonder we have poachers. I wish this story had not gone public. I think it opens the door for more poaching seeing how they did not make an example out of him.


----------



## WoW

MOTOMAN91 said:


> THE TAKING OF HIS GUNS MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE COUPLE OF THOUSAND POUND BAIT PILE THEY FOUND RIGHT OUT OF THE BACK DOOR OF HIS HOUSE. I'M SURE THEY WILL FIGURE OUT SOMEHOW, WHICH GUNS WERE USED, AND SOME OF THEM WERE USED, TO KILL THESE DEER SO HE COULD SELL THEM TO HIS FRIENDS FOR PROFIT. HE'S SUCH A GREAT GUY, A ROLE MODEL FOR ALL HUNTERS TO LOOK UP TO.


 
Since when is having a large bait pile a felony?

Heck, I know a neighbor that never did stop trailering in beets and the DNR was informed and wanted to know if the person reporting it was tresspassing when they spotted it. 

The DNR never did put a stop to it and the guy and his guests killed a slew of deer over those beets.

If the bait pile that you mention was so visible, why didn't the DNR do anything about that ages ago or did they?


----------



## MOTOMAN91

Why do you constantly stick up for this guy? You must be one of them. Every post you make of this site is either cutting someone good down or your sticking up for the bad guys. "wow" you're a great sportsman or sportswoman, whatever you are. Build your bait pile, grab all your guns and have a great time. "wow"


----------



## jimmyo17

MOTOMAN91 said:


> Why do you constantly stick up for this guy? You must be one of them. Every post you make of this site is either cutting someone good down or your sticking up for the bad guys. "wow" you're a great sportsman or sportswoman, whatever you are. Build your bait pile, grab all your guns and have a great time. "wow"


 i havnt read all of the posts beacause there are to many but you seen to be taking this poacher personally because he was killing them in your area and you wouldnt be if it was in someone elses area im not defending anyone but its plain and simple if it wasnt used in the crime and it wasnt a felony he gets the guns back


----------



## houghtonlakehero

Even if it was a felony, he would just petition the court for his rights to own a firearm again after 5 years of said felony. Poachers are like call girls, they're annoying and think they are entitled to everything. Just my opinion and take it with a grain of salt. I understand how motoman feels, we used to see a father and son running out of our property every year to a waiting truck ( assume the wife ), when we finally caught them on the property (cause my little brother is a sneaky little S.O.B ) prepping a deer to be picked up later that night the father thought he would pull a sidearm and scare us off. they never returned after being arrested.... ( that we know of )


----------



## WoW

MOTOMAN91 said:


> Why do you constantly stick up for this guy? You must be one of them. Every post you make of this site is either cutting someone good down or your sticking up for the bad guys. "wow" you're a great sportsman or sportswoman, whatever you are. Build your bait pile, grab all your guns and have a great time. "wow"


Where in the world did you get the impression that I was sticking up for the poacher? Please, refresh my memory with a quote sir.

And cutting someone good down? I really don't know what to make of that statement at all. Are you concerned about the facts and/or rights that we have or not?

If I have posted misinformation, please sir, feel free to correct me. 

Otherwise....


----------



## Spartan88

houghtonlakehero said:


> Even if it was a felony, he would just petition the court for his rights to own a firearm again after 5 years of said felony.


Not an option since the courts decided that felons cant sit on a jury, all civil rights have to be restored (voting, jury duty, public office) for gun ownership to be restored in MI.


----------



## Robert Holmes

When it is all over with the price that he will pay will of course be peanuts and he will just chalk it up to bad luck. Within a couple of weeks he will be loading a gun and doing it all over again. I happen to have known guys just like him. Illegally kill a few hunderd deer get caught once yo are still way ahead of the DNR. If they measured the horns and made the guilty party pay game ranch prices mabey it would discourage a few.


----------

