# do we own the power line path?



## Crawfish (May 7, 2002)

Berserker said:


> There are some instances I believe where michigan law forces public access.


 You keep saying this, but where are you getting it?

This thread just keeps getting deeper in BS. I hope no one ever looks back on it hoping for accurate legal advice. 

This thread is messier than a Tijuana Porta-jon.


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

Berserker said:


> I am just glad I was smart enough not to buy land with an easement


The problem Berserker is not buying land with easements on them.....The problem is people who think an easement has their name on it when it does not.

The person who shot the deer decoy on the power line last year learned his name was not on the easement.


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

For all the people beating there chest st the utility, you should read the section on tree trimming. They are just humoring you.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Berserker said:


> For all the people beating there chest st the utility, you should read the section on tree trimming. They are just hooting you.


Can gain is not the same as ,is/are allowed.
Speaking of trimming...
One tree into the lines and marked by utility for removal(removal by contractors) still stands where power should probably have been cut off to remove out front on the right of way.
I inquired with the utility about the many other tree hazards on the run to the house and was told they no longer trim such lines; but could be hired to now a-days.


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

They are allowed anytime they want no notice


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Oh...I'd notice.


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

You could chain yourself to the tree.
 http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/03/14/utility-tree-trimming-sparks-legal-battle-michigan/24771257/


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

Did you read the faq? They can cut whenever the feel like it. They are just being nice to you.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Underlying much of the ridiculous conversation about access to power lines is a long-held fantasy of some that they may obtain access, whether for hunting or recreation, to land that has a power line on it.

One of those rural legends. I've heard it a number of times over the years, and I've also heard it applied to railroad tracks. I've heard of stories of landowners having to run hunters off their land that were bird hunting along a railroad grade, convinced that their activity was entirely legal, based on the weight of the opinion of some guy in a bar that told them that not only was it perfectly legitimate, but the landowner would be powerless to stop them.

Guys - no matter whether that ground is owned by an individual, a business, or whatever, it is still private land. You can't go there without permission.

And if you want to bring up the old dog retrieval loophole, please do so in another thread.


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## bignuge (Mar 15, 2009)

farmlegend said:


> Correct. In my experience, power lines lie either upon easements/right of ways (in both instances, the landowner retains full rights of ownership subject to the easement/right of way) or upon land which the utility owns outright. I know of plenty of examples of both. When the power company owns the land, it is always ID'd as such on plat maps.



I have seen power line company marked on plot books but the adjacent land owners usually have easement rights to the property for hunting and farming. It is not public land even if it is owned by the power company


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

YUP but when they got threatened with timber trespass for cutting OFF the easement they decided to settle the issue. After that the power companies attitude changed from being holier than thow to treating me decent. Berkserker You sound like one of those types that think you can step one every one toes. Don't move over here and try it on mine.

BTW I OWN THE EASEMENT ACROSS MY PROPERTY. How do I know? I have the abstract for my property. This is not something like the half ass title searches they do today. It shows every thing recorded on my deed, including every time there was a loan taken out using the land as collateral to back the loan.

I live 6 miles from the biggest ORV place in the state of Michgan, Silver Lake sand dunes. There is so much private land tore up by people that got tired of tarring up the sand and went tearing up where ever they felt like public or private. That is why I am so protective on my property.

I read the attachment and got a good laugh at
More power company double talk in the last sentence in Paragraph 5. "quote The stumps are REMOVED and then CUT as close to the ground as possible Quote" My capital letters for emphasis. If you removed the stumps how do you then cut them as close to the ground as possible?????


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

It is a matter of wording, cutting close to ground is getting rid of the stumps to a degree. 


People here can say what they want about me. I am the only one who produced anything to back up my claims.


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

I am sure glad I don't have any easments or power company as a neighbor. 

Thank God I am not downstate too.


No birds today. GF kicked up 3 with dogs yesterday. I missed one later.


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## Crawfish (May 7, 2002)




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## Trap Star (Jan 15, 2015)

How bout them lions? Boy what a team huh?


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## Crawfish (May 7, 2002)

Berserker said:


> People here can say what they want about me. I am the only one who produced anything to back up my claims.


You produced something that said utilities can trim trees. I don't think that was a major point of contention. But you also said that Michigan law provides forced public access on utility easements/ROWs. That statement you haven't backed up...


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Berserker said:


> It is a matter of wording, cutting close to ground is getting rid of the stumps to a degree.
> 
> People here can say what they want about me. I am the only one who produced anything to back up my claims.


I love the cutting close to the ground. The regrowth comes on faster. One time they cut it twice the same year because of the regrowth. Mowed it the first time through then cut the 2 foot regrowth down with chain saws when they came through with the bucket truck later.

Big deal. Around where I live my word is as good as a contract. Always was when I was in business any way.


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## ST8 (Nov 1, 2005)

why don't you just check with the power company....


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## maliki (Nov 18, 2006)

As a designer of gas and electric distribution lines I can shed a little light on this topic. When I extend our distribution facilities, primary and secondary lines for electric and mains for gas, an easement is always needed if out of the public right-of-way (typically 33' on each side of the road centerline). 

The distribution easement for our primary lines is a 30' wide easement, 15' on each side of the centerline of the line, which needs to be cleared ground to sky. An easement for a secondary line is typically 12' wide easement, 6' on each side, and it doesn't have to be cleared ground to sky. The wording in the easement can be changed to allow lateral rights to the N, S, E, or W if we see potential to service adjacent properties in the future. This can be rejected by the customer and narrowed down to an easement solely for the line on the customer's property. 

If there is another property to cross to get power to the requesting customer, then we will, of course, seek easement from that land owner as well. In these cases I have the requesting customer join me on a visit to the 'disinterested party' to discuss our intentions on getting power to his new neighbor. Less than half of the time the disinterested party will not sign the easement unless the two parties have common interests, are family, or friends.

Our easements are generally the same with slight variations in the wording as to what can and cannot be done in that easement. The easement does not allow any public on the customer's property and we do have rights to enter the property for routine maintenance or in case of emergent work. We will, out of courtesy, contact the customer to inform them that contractors will be doing circuit clearing/trimming and to call our forester if they have any questions. 

It is a very common practice for the customer to daisy chain their lock to one of ours if they want to restrict access to that property. Our easement on your land doesn't make that our land, it just grants us specific rights, you can hunt in our easements but please do not shoot at our facilities. We also state in the easement not build within that easement but I have yet to see a customer take down his structure (pole barns, garages, additions, etc) because we asked him to - we normally relocate the line around the structure at the customer's cost. 

We do have large tracts of land that anybody can see by looking at your county's GIS interactive map, if your county is fortunate/populated enough to have one, most do, or you can go to the county building and pull that info. The county building is also a good place to go to lookup your existing easement if you have the liber and page number. These are interesting bits to read and I've seen them go back to the early 1900's. As stated previously you cannot hunt on that property! 

If anybody has any specific questions pertaining to the installation, removal, or relocation of electric or gas distribution systems, residential & commercial services, and industrial & subdivision developments please feel free to ask. If I don't have the answers I can easily find them.


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

maliki said:


> It is a very common practice for the customer to daisy chain their lock to one of ours if they want to restrict access to that property.
> 
> 
> 
> If anybody has any specific questions pertaining to the installation, removal, or relocation of electric or gas distribution systems, residential & commercial services, and industrial & subdivision developments please feel free to ask. If I don't have the answers I can easily find them.


I didnt want to sidetrack this thread with my question but after this post i figured i would. Has anyone been able to cable or gate off a dte easement? I have tried several times to get in touch with someone at dte to get a lock or a clear answer as to what is needed to restrict access to myself and dte. So far all i have been told is dte does not do anything like this.


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## koz bow (Nov 18, 2006)

Not sure where all of you have lost your marbles on this topic.

Totally not understanding of land ownership and land easement.

It's not that complex. Who pays taxes owns it. No one has legal right to be on it but the taxpayer .

What the hell are you guys talking about???

And yes I daisy chain my locks for access. But I own the @!%$÷% ground. The power company has an easement. It's what happens in Michigan.

Still don't know what you are talking about. 

The utilities aren't paying taxes. Landowners are.

Public has no legal right to access.


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## koz bow (Nov 18, 2006)

wild bill said:


> I didnt want to sidetrack this thread with my question but after this post i figured i would. Has anyone been able to cable or gate off a dte easement? I have tried several times to get in touch with someone at dte to get a lock or a clear answer as to what is needed to restrict access to myself and dte. So far all i have been told is dte does not do anything like this.


It was a 3 minute call and they sent out a rep with a lock for me.

It's a daisy chain now.

It's that simple. 

Not sure why this thread had made it so complex for no reason.


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## Crawfish (May 7, 2002)

This is overly broad and untrue as written:


koz bow said:


> It's not that complex. Who pays taxes owns it. No one has legal right to be on it but the taxpayer.


An easement holder doesn't pay taxes but has a right (within the limits defined in the creation of the easement) to be on it. That may be maintaining lines, using an access road, accessing water, etc. depending on the type of easement.


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Thank You Maliki!!!
Tom


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Thank You Maliki


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

Malaliki, are you a customer service tech?
A Cst I work with in Wisconsin was telling me how laws are a lot different by state. He thought some of the companies land, not easments were accessible by law to public in mi. We do not have 4 trails on our wi power lines but we do in mi.

We have lots of campgrounds on utility land and marked trails. Some of it is probably to create goodwill.


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

I don't think anyone here has said the landowner does mit own the land with an easment. One argument has been how much control they have over the utility. I think alot less then they would like to think.


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

Crawfish said:


> You produced something that said utilities can trim trees. I don't think that was a major point of contention. But you also said that Michigan law provides forced public access on utility easements/ROWs. That statement you haven't backed up...


Early on I said row, later clarified by saying land owned by utility.

No I haven't backed it up. I may be wrong. I don't work with land. As I said I was talking to tech in Wisconsin, who talked of his counterparts in mi.

I also brought up how there are a lot of trails on utility lines. Though I don't know who owns the land.

Also some people seem to think utility needs permission to enter easement. Then it wouldn't be an easemwnt


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

koz bow said:


> Totally not understanding of land ownership and land easement.
> 
> It's not that complex. Who pays taxes owns it. No one has legal right to be on it but the taxpayer .


And the person who has the easment. Otherwise there would not be an easement.


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## maliki (Nov 18, 2006)

koz bow said:


> Not sure where all of you have lost your marbles on this topic.
> Totally not understanding of land ownership and land easement.
> It's not that complex. Who pays taxes owns it. No one has legal right to be on it but the taxpayer


Absolutely not true! And you are correct in saying it is not that complex. I've had landowners who think like you do and had a police escort our crews and myself onto their land to enforce the easement. What many do not know is that most of our easements allow the installation of additional facilities to help us bring our power and gas to adjacent properties (lateral rights). If you didn't sign that easement for that line on your land chances are good that the previous owner or the original owner signed one and it is at the courthouse for all to see if they inquire. It is a powerful piece of paper that will be around long after you and I. 

As taxes go, we do not pay your land taxes but we do pay taxes on all our facilities (conductors, poles, transformers, regulators, boosters, pipe, reg stations, city gates, etc) that are on your land and in the public right-of-way. All designs/capital work orders must be released with a tax code on them for that reason. 



wild bill said:


> I didnt want to sidetrack this thread with my question but after this post i figured i would. Has anyone been able to cable or gate off a dte easement?


WB, I am not sure about DTE, the company I work for is the other large regulated monopoly in Michigan, but we have no problem with you gating your land as long as we have access to open it when needed. We do not supply you with a lock, we merely loop our lock through your lock loop...thus the daisy chained lock. I have seen many gated areas restricting our access and depending on what is beyond your property we really do not enforce our accessibility onto your land. We will make it known that when your power goes out you may not be restored as quickly.



Berserker said:


> Malaliki, are you a customer service tech?


Berserker, I play a similar role and we are known as Customer Energy Specialists. CES for short.


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

maliki said:


> WB, I am not sure about DTE, the company I work for is the other large regulated monopoly in Michigan, but we have no problem with you gating your land as long as we have access to open it when needed. We do not supply you with a lock, we merely loop our lock through your lock loop...thus the daisy chained lock. I have seen many gated areas restricting our access and depending on what is beyond your property we really do not enforce our accessibility onto your land. We will make it known that when your power goes out you may not be restored as quickly.


Thanks maliki. I have a 380' essement on my east boundry that feeds the neighbors houses. It also happens to be the point where we enter our property. I had a cable accross it in the past and dte would losen the bolts and relax it to gain access. Last fall the cable and locks disappeared. I contacted dte and was told there was no service call or work done in that area. Dte also told me that they were the only ones who could use that easement. No cable. No phone. No gas. I was told by another neighbor that w.o.w cable was working in that area at the time the cable came up missing but i have no idea if they are using that easement without permission. So far i have been told twice by dte that i would get a callback about a double lock setup but i never recieved one.


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

Wild bill you don't need a utility lock. We won't give you one. We don't want you having our keys.

Just daisy chain your lock. Connect your lock to theirs and chain of cable. SO If either is unlocked gate opens.


Putting up a gate and knowing utility had to loosen it is stupid.

They could probably sue you. 

Plus why be a PIA? Also just because the line only goes to your neighbor doesn't mean you won't have to wait to be restored.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Berserker said:


> Wild bill you don't need a utility lock. We won't give you one. We don't want you having our keys.
> 
> Just daisy chain your lock. Connect your lock to theirs and chain of cable. SO If either is unlocked gate opens.
> 
> ...


 Einstein, your pretty quick to call others stupid. I am sure, after seeing your written communication skills, that your a man of great intellect and high academic achievement but just give the lesser folks a break.


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

Berserker said:


> Wild bill you don't need a utility lock. We won't give you one. We don't want you having our keys.
> 
> Just daisy chain your lock. Connect your lock to theirs and chain of cable. SO If either is unlocked gate opens.
> 
> ...



You really are to stupid to comprehend what you read arent you. Doesnt matter anyways. After that nothing you say is worth responding to.


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

If someone told you they were to obstruct a legal contract and reduce reliability, would you say that is smart?

Since I am not being paid to post here, and on a smart phone from camp, I don't care to much effort into grammar. But rather walk the walk.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I don't care to much effort into grammar. QUOTE]

I hadn't noticed.


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## Crawfish (May 7, 2002)

Berserker said:


> Wild bill you don't need a utility lock. We won't give you one. We don't want you having our keys.
> 
> Just daisy chain your lock. Connect your lock to theirs and chain of cable. SO If either is unlocked gate opens.


He never said "utility lock". He said: "So far i have been told twice by dte that i would get a callback about a double lock setup but i never recieved one."

Berserker, how do you add your lock for a daisy chain setup if the utility doesn't return calls or open the lock so you can add your lock?


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

Good point


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## gatorman841 (Mar 4, 2010)

This thread just goes to show you that if you have a legal ? DO NOT ASK IT IN THESE FORUMS! Do the leg work yourself and go to the court house or wherever the laws are obtainable from a government source and get the correct answer in writing so that way if you ever have a issue you have the paperwork to back you up. Saying some guy on Mich sportsman told me so isn't gonna be worth much more then a pile of donkey ****. Easements are touchy I've went through them myself as my property is half on one side of a river and half on the other. A main road out front with a bridge thus making everyone who drove by thought they had a legal right to access the river from the road and walking on my property to gain access to the river. The clause to this easement is the river has to be deemed navigable. Which it is not and most rivers unless in a big city are not considered navigable. If I woulda listened to a few ppl insteada doing the leg work on my own ppl would still be crossing my property.


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## Berserker (Aug 10, 2014)

gatorman841 said:


> This thread just goes to show you that if you have a legal ? DO NOT ASK IT IN THESE FORUMS! Do the leg work yourself and go to the court house or wherever the laws are obtainable from a government source and get the correct answer in writing so that way if you ever have a issue you have the paperwork to back you up. Saying some guy on Mich sportsman told me so isn't gonna be worth much more then a pile of donkey ****. Easements are touchy I've went through them myself as my property is half on one side of a river and half on the other. A main road out front with a bridge thus making everyone who drove by thought they had a legal right to access the river from the road and walking on my property to gain access to the river. The clause to this easement is the river has to be deemed navigable. Which it is not and most rivers unless in a big city are not considered navigable. If I woulda listened to a few ppl insteada doing the leg work on my own ppl would still be crossing my property.


Creek behind my house is consider navigable, and there isn't a stretch that's is 4 feet and straight. Usually only 8 inches deep.


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