# Homestead Dam, Betsie River, Salmon Season Closure



## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Hunters Edge said:


> I disagree with this. If indeed it is being proposed or implemented because of illegal fishing or poaching. Closing it not only just moves the illegal activity downstream or to another location. It also discriminates those law abiding fishermen by this action. I think one should look at why we support and fund conservation officers to protect our natural resource. Excluding our natural resource from law abiding citizens of this state is not the way or the direction we should be heading IMHO.


I understand your pain, and sympathize with you. The DNR closed the pool directly below Foote Dam on the Ausable to all fishing, probably around 30-35 years ago. So all the fish that leap above the "coffer dam" can't be fished for. And a whole lot of planted anadromous fish leap that coffer dam. I ate a couple tickets many many years ago, and quit fishing there. The rationale at the time (from the DNR) was that they would simply close that pool to fishing, since they couldn't effectively enforce "no snagging" regulations that existed. 
Fast forward to the post-Mussel period, and there are hardly any Salmon that run the Ausable, compared to the pre-Mussel numbers. But that pool remains closed. It is a shame, because you could easily pursue Steelhead up there, and get them to bite, when it was legal to fish there. 

On the Betsie, I can understand the logic. Homestead dam just stacks the fish up below it, sometimes for 100 yards. There is plenty of river to fish for them, other than right below the dam. And Homestead Dam doesn't completely stop the fish from migrating - many of them clear the dam, and move upstream to spawn. I support this closure, which will make it a LOT simpler for the DNR to enforce, since they can see anyone fishing the closed section from a discreet distance. 

Fish for the Biters elsewhere.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Fishndude said:


> I understand your pain, and sympathize with you. The DNR closed the pool directly below Foote Dam on the Ausable to all fishing, probably around 30-35 years ago. So all the fish that leap above the "coffer dam" can't be fished for. And a whole lot of planted anadromous fish leap that coffer dam. I ate a couple tickets many many years ago, and quit fishing there. The rationale at the time (from the DNR) was that they would simply close that pool to fishing, since they couldn't effectively enforce "no snagging" regulations that existed.
> Fast forward to the post-Mussel period, and there are hardly any Salmon that run the Ausable, compared to the pre-Mussel numbers. But that pool remains closed. It is a shame, because you could easily pursue Steelhead up there, and get them to bite, when it was legal to fish there.
> 
> On the Betsie, I can understand the logic. Homestead dam just stacks the fish up below it, sometimes for 100 yards. There is plenty of river to fish for them, other than right below the dam. And Homestead Dam doesn't completely stop the fish from migrating - many of them clear the dam, and move upstream to spawn. I support this closure, which will make it a LOT simpler for the DNR to enforce, since they can see anyone fishing the closed section from a discreet distance.
> ...


No matter how you post or explanation, it still ignores law abiding individuals rights and punishes law abiding individuals. It also does not stop lawlessness but moves it to another destination. Above everything what are we paying CO's for? It's closure is do to illegal fishing not anything else mentioned!


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## flyting (Jan 22, 2010)

I say inforce the rules. You can't tell me they couldn't write enough tickets in that area to pay a COs wage. Wouldn't take long for people to get straight. Punish the good guys because of the bad. This is how we lose our liberties!

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## Tracker01 (Jul 6, 2010)

As I am reading the comments about the possibility of this closure. It would be like saying close the Manistee River from the damn to the boat launch!


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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

See measurement in corner of pic.

300' is up to the first bend. This would really only take away "the chute" which is the least sporting part of homestead, but ironically the most skillful. I watched specific guys bring up fish after fish after fish last fall while nobody else could get a hookup. Meanwhile, every "hole" the rest of the way down has 10 guys standing shoulder to shoulder all the way around it - the fish actually swim through your legs to get in the hole. LMAO

If they want to curb snagging, they should ticket people for snagging and define flossing as snagging, which it is by definition. 

Of course, all they're going to accomplish in the end is a deterioration of a money making industry in one of the poorest parts of the state, just like they did in Wellston. The fish are planted to be fished. If some people fill their freezer by snagging, so be it. Once the money dries up, the state government will stop planting fish altogether and then the loudmouth fly fishermen won't have anything to chase either. 

Why do they plant the fish in the first place? I seem to recall Snyder getting rid of Michigan's movie making tax credits (which were working) because Republicans didn't think that it was fair for the government to prop up an industry... is that any different than the sport fishing industry?

Lastly, in defense of the Betsie, I brought home beautiful fish out of there. The dam is right off the lake. Of course, the fish that never make it past the dam will rot and zombify, but timing is everything up there.









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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Homestead Dam is a gem. Has provided me with a few hours of entertainment over the years. I get both sides, it would kind of suck if the spectacle was gone, but if there is a biological reason to change the restrictions then shut it down. 

With the declining salmon fishery the Betsie has seemed to remain a solid producer. I would be curious to see how many salmon it contributes to Lake Michigan in a year. I will admit it was generally a bit more enjoyable before salmon runs started sucking everywhere else. It is certainly a river that deserves more respect (I am talking about us sportsmen in general), but Homestead has been decades of entertainment for many and a help to the local economy.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

It's like closing off access because some people litter. Punish the law abiding sportsmen and women because of some slobs. I have been to Homestead dam many times and have watched many fishermen catch fish after fish legally while watching so.e guys snag. I think it's time we consider what's best for the honest sportsmen and women.


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## 101thwacK (Sep 7, 2017)

Hunters Edge said:


> I disagree with this. If indeed it is being proposed or implemented because of illegal fishing or poaching. Closing it not only just moves the illegal activity downstream or to another location. It also discriminates those law abiding fishermen by this action. I think one should look at why we support and fund conservation officers to protect our natural resource. Excluding our natural resource from law abiding citizens of this state is not the way or the direction we should be heading IMHO.


Please do not take any of this the wrong way, I am interested in a logical discussion. First I am curious if you have been to this specific dam during peak salmon run?

I agree that in MOST circumstances I agree with your statement and feel similarly. I do not like laws that discriminate against the good guys. I do not like laws that slowly begin to place perimeters on hunting and fishing because they can be used as stepping stones to us losing things and places we love.

I do support this instance though primarily for the following reason. Disclaimer, I have not personally fished at the damn but I have observed the "circus" as many call it, as well as seeing the holding and migrating fish there. From what I have personally seen, read, and been told the Betsy experiences pretty good natural reproduction. Thus, these fish should be protected to a certain extent IMO. The 300 ft to be closed (and even around at least the next bend in my opinion) is a bottle neck. As someone else described earlier "the chute" closest to the dam is especially narrow, with the river not being a whole lot wider. Due to this "bottle neck" it makes the fish especially vulnerable. IMO even more so than other damns and locations that have been mentioned. Due to this a smaller number of people would be able to have a greater impact on the fish (and this location does not experience any small number). So why not still allow fishing everywhere else on the river, but give the fish a little protection where they are especially vulnerable? There are plenty of places just as easy or easier to access. Protect the resource so that it remains there for everyone to to enjoy into the future. Make a small sacrifice on this specific location so that near by more people can enjoy the resource over a greater area and time frame.

Secondly, due to the volume of people this location receives, the destruction to the banks and immediate environment is very great. So much so I do not know that it is sustainable, but that is speculation on my part after seeing it I guess.


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## milanmark (Apr 10, 2012)

Betsie River has very high natural reproduction... that needs to be safeguarded as it contributes to the total salmon population in Lake Michigan... "The Chute" has always been a spot where the fish can be picked off, need to protect our breeders and our future salmon runs! I support this move and sure hope it happens this fall, I had heard about this before and was disappointed that it didn't go into effect this past fall.


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## 6667supersport (Oct 10, 2012)

Sure I will catch hell for this, but I have been to Homestead in late August and early September. I would not call what I have seen in the 1st 30 foot or so of legal fishable river "fishing". Always thought they should give the fish a little more "safe area", like back to where it starts to widen. Just like others have said Manistee and Betsie are major spawning rivers and should be protected to some point. There is still more than enough river to do what you wanna do if the DNR does do this.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

101thwacK said:


> Please do not take any of this the wrong way, I am interested in a logical discussion. First I am curious if you have been to this specific dam during peak salmon run?
> 
> I agree that in MOST circumstances I agree with your statement and feel similarly. I do not like laws that discriminate against the good guys. I do not like laws that slowly begin to place perimeters on hunting and fishing because they can be used as stepping stones to us losing things and places we love.
> 
> ...


First if you were interested in a logical discussion you would not have wrote what you posted.

1 the ban on fishing within 300ft of the dam is do to snagging or illegal fishing and not anything else you wrote or your concern.

2 if the reason to ban a area from legal fishing is to insure natural breeders you could conceive it can be or should be expanded to the whole River and it's tributaries. Thus the concern or reason for the ban is not for saving breeders but to contain or eliminate illegal fishing aka snagging

3 if they are concerned over breeders they would or could reduce seasons, limits or implement slots or size limitations rather than close an area from legal fishing when the reason given was not protecting natural breeders or breeding but do to snagging.


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## nighttime (Nov 25, 2007)

300’ of river I have no need to fish, 300’ of a river that has 50 plus miles you can salmon fish. Some people will never get over fishing next to dams. The 300’ mark will be lined up with same type. Screw it let the fish have it and we will have them for generations. Not a bad thing to protect a valuable resource, circus or no circus.


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## 101thwacK (Sep 7, 2017)

Hunters Edge said:


> First if you were interested in a logical discussion you would not have wrote what you posted.


I only said that in hopes that you would answer, realizing I just wanted to know how descriptive I needed to be of how homestead is setup or if you have already seen it. But I knew some people would ask that in a snarky "this idiot needs to open his eyes" kind of way, and I did not want it taken that way.



Hunters Edge said:


> 1 the ban on fishing within 300ft of the dam is do to snagging or illegal fishing and not anything else you wrote or your concern.
> 
> 2 if the reason to ban a area from legal fishing is to insure natural breeders you could conceive it can be or should be expanded to the whole River and it's tributaries. Thus the concern or reason for the ban is not for saving breeders but to contain or eliminate illegal fishing aka snagging
> 
> 3 if they are concerned over breeders they would or could reduce seasons, limits or implement blocks or size limitations rather than close an area from legal fishing when the reason given was not protecting natural breeders or breeding but do to snagging.


To number 2 I guess part of what I was saying but may not have communicated clearly was that in "the chute" area in my opinion due to the narrow area, number of fish, and fast current it would be hard to fish it without snagging fish IMO, so not allowing fishing RIGHT there protects the fish.

To number 3 These things limit a lot more legal fisherman than closing a few feet of a river do they not? I see this as a small change that could have a larger impact. The things you said would likely also have a large impact but would have a lot greater limits to fisherman and even require more of the CO enforcement that you mentioned correct?

In conclusion I guess due to how homestead is laid out I personally view fishing the spot being discussed as very comparable to fishing in a fish ladder. If it has taken snagging to be the thing to tip this scale then so be it. Though I (and if I am understanding everyone, we all) are against snagging, it is not MY reason for being in support of this, because I think that like your view (if i am understanding correctly) a location should not be closed solely because snaggers are found there, because unfortunately they can be found almost everywhere.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

101thwacK said:


> I only said that in hopes that you would answer, realizing I just wanted to know how descriptive I needed to be of how homestead is setup or if you have already seen it. But I knew some people would ask that in a snarky "this idiot needs to open his eyes" kind of way, and I did not want it taken that way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fact is if the CO's did their job there would be no need to prohibit fishing in that area. This thread would also not exist. That's the point no one is comprehending.

Also by stopping fishing in this area it is not stopping snagging it just disperses snagging which makes it more difficult to stop and ticket those that snag.

In the end all it will accomplish is restricting law abiding fishermen from enjoying our natural resources.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

I had a DNR fish biologist tell me that about 17 pairs of steelhead would be enough to populate the Little Manistee river. Based on that it seems reasonable to assume we could logically apply that information to the Betsie river. 

Don't punish sportsmen and women because of rippers. As far as erosion problems, it may look like hell, but it is minor compared to what is happening to other rivers in our state.

I remember when fly fishermen used to justify flies only by pointing out that in flies only areas you didn't see any blue bait containers laying around. Just absurd!


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## milanmark (Apr 10, 2012)

I have fished the Betsie for many years... how many of you have been at the dam on Labor Day week? If you saw what goes on you wouldn't hesitate to support this change. Very few people fish the chute and it is dangerous to just be a spectator! Of all the people that fish the Betsie very few will be affected by the change, it's crowded up close but by numbers not many fish the chute compared to the rest of the river.


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Macs13 said:


> The fish are planted to be fished


they dont plant king salmon in the betsie river.



Macs13 said:


> the loudmouth fly fishermen won't have anything to chase either.


again they dont plant here


Macs13 said:


> Why do they plant the fish in the first place?


they dont


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Macs13 said:


> Why do they plant the fish in the first place? I seem to recall Snyder getting rid of Michigan's movie making tax credits (which were working) because Republicans didn't think that it was fair for the government to prop up an industry... is that any different than the sport fishing industry?


leave it to this clown to make this about politics.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

I just want to see the list of M-S members that actually fish the chute....


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## nighttime (Nov 25, 2007)

BMARKS said:


> they dont plant king salmon in the betsie river.
> 
> 
> again they dont plant here
> ...


Obviously he don’t know the facts after first year of salmon fishing. 300’ of river doesn’t shut fishing down and destroy local economy lol. Plenty of fish and plenty of fishermen will show up. One good reason the river produces so many has something do with location and other physical factors also Dnr has let it take its own course. Not putting hatchery reared fish in the system has helped it success, at least in my eyes. Shut it down and
Let the fish have 300’. Plenty of tickets will be wrote in that spot, somethings will never change


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## TK81 (Mar 28, 2009)

BMARKS said:


> i don't think that it will have any affects on returning populations of fish, but will on the populations of hillbillies dragging fish in from the anal fin.
> i do not think it should be flies only. but if the whole point is trying to reduce or eliminate unlawful fishing, i guarantee it would be reduced immensely if it was no kill, even if it was just a section from the dam down to 31.


If one hires a guide that helps them refine their chuck and duck, are they still considered hillbillies? Is the guide a hillbilly? Are these hillbillies really just boatbillies that are better than bankbillies?

Blatant snagging below damns sucks...unless it is made legal again as it was when I was a kid. But in the end, they're just kangs that will be stinking up the bank in a couple weeks anyway.

Maybe they should close the Betsie, and then open snagging back up below a couple dams on rivers that have poor reproduction.


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## tda513 (Oct 24, 2011)

DeerShack said:


> Want to protect spawners? Make the river no kill like the flies only section on the PM. That will eliminate snaggers and meat fishermen.


I hope this is sarcasm. Sure, the PM is no kill, but the blatant flossing of spawning salmon on the flies only section of the PM is absurd. Especially given the fact that most people stand 10 ft away from a spawning pair and throw repeatedly in its face until they successfully floss them. And then take a few "hero shots" of the fish like what they did was worthy.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Do they close roadways that have excessive speeding issues? Nope. Do we not have CO's? Perhaps they should do their job. For that matter any LEO can stop by and take a peek at the area, who knows, maybe they'll be able to write some tickets... I've heard they're a good deterrent. I like the idea of keeping these lesser than we 'Anglers" off the better water on the Betsie...
Here's an idea, regulate the .LB strength line one can have spooled.


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## nighttime (Nov 25, 2007)

Pound strength is a little much to keep up with on all ends. Playing out fish for long periods of time also kill fish. I went and watched circus with my sons last Labor Day. I assure you CO’s were out numbered. Also I don’t think dnr could write tickets fast enough. Probably should set up temporary station for tickets, lol. Get in line and get your tickets!!! Ohh man.... I’ve come across many incidents were someone is getting wrote up but never seen a CO’s write so many tickets so fast. My boys were asking some questions when we left.


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## milanmark (Apr 10, 2012)

BMARKS said:


> leave it to this clown to make this about politics.


I think you found a troll...
Lots to say nothing of substance.


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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

BMARKS said:


> they dont plant king salmon in the betsie river.
> 
> 
> again they dont plant here
> ...


Are you that thick?

All salmon in Michigan are planted. They aren't native. The DNR stocks them. Of course some reproduce naturally, but if the DNR stopped planting them, the huge "runs" that the salmon fishing tourism industry is built around will cease to exist.

Which river they're literally dropped into wasn't my point. 



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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

BMARKS said:


> leave it to this clown to make this about politics.


It seems to be a story about local politicians and the DNR which is directed by state politicians that will affect sports(wo)men. Seemed appropriate. Sorry if you couldn't follow. 

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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Macs13 said:


> Are you that thick?
> 
> All salmon in Michigan are planted. They aren't native. The DNR stocks them. Of course some reproduce naturally, but if the DNR stopped planting them, the huge "runs" that the salmon fishing tourism industry is built around will cease to exist.
> 
> ...


You do realize most of the Betsie run is wild, right? I have been counting my clips. Michigan really doesn't have a salmon industry anymore. Ales are not doing well, but the lakers are. Balance is restoring itself. I wish they would quit planting all salmon and let nature do it's thing. Let the biologists decide if a stream gets closed.


Ps- biologists, not the whack jobs in Lansing.


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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

There seems to be a reasonable consensus that it's more sporting to close down the chute area because it's nigh impossible to actually "fish" it and this would give the breeders a better chance at survival. 

As for the snagging issue, this is a big smokescreen. Flossing is snagging and 95% of the people up there are flossing. Period. Argue all you want, but it's forcing the hook into the open mouth of the swimming fish, not the fish taking a lure or bait due to feeding behavior or aggression and that is just fancified snagging.

That being said, I think the real issue is the battle of "class" amongst fishermen:

Blatant snaggers = hillbillies. 
Flossers = refined hillbillies.
Fly fisherman = breathtaking stewards of the wild.

It's all B.S. Some people fish for meat to feed themselves and their family and CBA to spend all day fly fishing to maybe go 1 for 5. There are enough fish in there for everybody. The conundrum is what to do about the "ugly" snaggers that are doing it blatantly. The COs couple hypocritically ticket them and let the flossers continue but it won't solve any problem. 

I don't have the answer. Maybe a week long stretch of no holds barred snagging should be allowed in defined portions of the river, maybe late in the season when the prime fish (and those physically energetic enough to still clear the dam) are long gone. 

IMO, if you want to floss, i.e. snag, then go for it and have a ball. If you don't want to see that, WTF are you doing at the dam in the first place? Take your fly rod and fancy $500 waders to some secluded and serene stretch of water and enjoy yourself in the way that you personally value. Everybody wins. 


:: cue haters ::

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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

Trout King said:


> You do realize most of the Betsie run is wild, right? I have been counting my clips. Michigan really doesn't have a salmon industry anymore. Ales are not doing well, but the lakers are. Balance is restoring itself. I wish they would quit planting all salmon and let nature do it's thing. Let the biologists decide if a stream gets closed.
> 
> 
> Ps- biologists, not the whack jobs in Lansing.


I think you answered my post by agreeing with me. 

I haven't researched to see which streams are directly planted. I was only commenting that the entire industry is man-made. That includes those that happen to the Betsie which is mere miles from other rivers that are planted. They're all the same fish. 

As for the industry dying - cracking down hard on snaggers has crushed Brethren and that area. Guys used to make a long weekend of it every year. As the tourism dollars and tax dollars fade, so will the fisheries. Then the fly fishermen will have the waters to themselves and all of the others, those much derided "weekend warriors," will have moved their dollars elsewhere. 

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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)




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## Mr Burgundy (Nov 19, 2009)

So did this law officially pass or is it proposed


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

METTLEFISH said:


> Do they close roadways that have excessive speeding issues? Nope. Do we not have CO's? Perhaps they should do their job. For that matter any LEO can stop by and take a peek at the area, who knows, maybe they'll be able to write some tickets... I've heard they're a good deterrent. I like the idea of keeping these lesser than we 'Anglers" off the better water on the Betsie...
> Here's an idea, regulate the .LB strength line one can have spooled.


I can't attest to as to whether or not they close roads due to speeding however, I will tell you for certainty there were A LOT of CO's around the Betsie this last fall. I know of a least 10 that were in the area for a couple of weeks and the wrote a ton of tickets. As for LB test line, I think we're pushing it there.


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