# "Holy waters" may be in danger!!!!



## troutguy26

I personally don't want to see it happen due to the fact that our resources are at stake. Its sad to say, but this will more than likely happen. 

I find it ironic tho that the people who so influenced certain things won't stand a chance on this influential group... at the least it will be a deal for another tract of land. 

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## chasenabby

I work in the Oil & Gas industry here in MI.
This industry is one of the few in MI still creating jobs.
These jobs are local and filled with local people.
Most people I have met are sportsmen and women and are as concerned about the enviroment as anyone.

Before everyone goes off the handle (as some have) one thing to keep in mind is that very little of actual leased acreage gets drilled.

The chances that a company will lease the land and drill are relatively low.

Also, the royalties from oil & gas in MI pay for land purchases, boat ramps, campgrounds and habitat restoration.

Oil and gas production can be done with very little impact on the enviroment. It has been done for years all over the state.





-Axiom- said:


> To do things cleanly and safely costs money, money that could otherwise be kept as profit.
> This is true, it does cost money to do things cleanly and safely and it does eat into profits.
> However, I have personally worked with most companies in MI and these companies don't hesitate to spend money to ensure the eviroment and all regulations are followed. In fact some companies have more stringent requirements than required.
> 
> Profit is all that matters in the business world, how it is made is irrelevant, the impact is irrelevant.
> Profits do matter. How it is made is also relevant. This comment is plain ignorance.
> 
> There is no profit in protecting nature and protecting nature is a hindrance to making a profit.
> Again, ignorance!
> 
> We have Government agencies that are supposed oversee things of this nature to make sure that the laws & rules are followed.
> Yes in MI we have some of the toughest policies regarding Oil & Gas Exploration and drilling in the country.
> 
> You don't have to look too far in the past to find countless cases of the Government not doing it's job of oversight & enforcement.
> True
> 
> This is mostly because people (Government people) get paid to look the other way or even cover things up.
> Not even close to being true!
> I'm sure there are many companies that wish this was true.
> Contrary to popular beleif "Big Oil" companies are not buying off politicians in order to destroy the enviromeent.
> 
> Your Democrat & Republican politicians are not going to do anything because they work for the highest bidder not the people.
> Unfortunately you may be right
> 
> Everything in this country is entirely about money, nothing else matters in a money worshiping society.
> It's too bad you feel this way!
> 
> 
> Money & influence is what created the gear restricted waters in the first place, in this case that special interest group doesn't have enough money to buy the influence needed.


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## Hart

RedM2 said:


> I am going to get a little political, but don't most on here support Republican politics. I'd also say it's safe to say that most on here support drilling for oil in our own country...mostly Republican policy. Well, you're getting what you wanted. You can't have it both ways folks. You reap what you sow. I've found that most aren't concerned with what happens to others until it impacts them.


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## RedM2

Maybe most of the members here really don't care...?


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## Anish

RedM2 said:


> I am going to get a little political, but don't most on here support Republican politics. I'd also say it's safe to say that most on here support drilling for oil in our own country...mostly Republican policy. Well, you're getting what you wanted. You can't have it both ways folks. You reap what you sow. I've found that most aren't concerned with what happens to others until it impacts them.


 
Unfortunately, I couldn't agree more


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## feedinggrounds

FREEPOP said:


> Humor and sacrcasm.
> 
> Quite ironic that a special interest group gets a section of stream designated to their preferred methods but then the possibility arises that they may be trumped by a more wealthy and influential interest group. There is much to be learned here, like "united we stand, divided we fall".


 So true, special interest are the divider weather it is flys only or MAPR's one cannot expect, hope maybe but not expect support from a group of anglers who by the fishing method they choose are excluded from this area. But those same excluded anglers have to heat their homes and put gas in their cars. I want nothing bad to happen to any waters but I don't fish the holy waters...I am a baitfisherman I wont support drilling in that watershed but....I am a baitfisherman


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## Anish

chasenabby said:


> I work in the Oil & Gas industry here in MI.
> This industry is one of the few in MI still creating jobs.
> These jobs are local and filled with local people.
> Most people I have met are sportsmen and women and are as concerned about the enviroment as anyone.
> 
> Before everyone goes off the handle (as some have) one thing to keep in mind is that very little of actual leased acreage gets drilled.
> 
> The chances that a company will lease the land and drill are relatively low.
> 
> Also, the royalties from oil & gas in MI pay for land purchases, boat ramps, campgrounds and habitat restoration.
> 
> Oil and gas production can be done with very little impact on the enviroment. It has been done for years all over the state.


 
One of my favorite selling points that the Oil companies use is the, "were creating jobs" line. Yes, it's true the oil and gas company DO create jobs, but how many and for how long? The Dakotas are experiencing these boom towns right now. The problem is, when the well is drilled and the majority of labor is no longer needed. As for the employees being local people, I'll use Dakota again as an example. A LOT of the people who are working in the oil fields over there are NOT local. They are people from other states who have moved into the area for the work. Once the oil companies no longer need their services, that state is going to be stuck with A LOT more people than it originally had and they are going to be out of work. 

The boat ramps, campgrounds are great! Assuming we don't have to wear hazmat suits to use them. 

Yes in theory oil and gas production can be done with little impact to the environment. In some instances it has been done for years without incident...yet, but it's also been done with disastrous results. 

Anybody remember the Kalamazoo spill? 
(Just to make the evidence Nazi's happy...)
http://www.epa.gov/region05/enbridgespill/

Oh, I'm sorry! Is this what you meant by creating jobs? Because these employees probably have quite a bit of job security considering how long it will take to repair the damage done. 

No way in hell I want to see that happen again and especially not to the AuSable! Can you guarantee me with 100% certainty that this type of incident wont happen if drilling begins near the AuSable? No, because there is no way to guarantee it. The reason the K-zoo disaster was as bad as it was is due to human error.


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## triplelunger

RedM2 said:


> I am going to get a little political, but don't most on here support Republican politics. I'd also say it's safe to say that most on here support drilling for oil in our own country...mostly Republican policy. Well, you're getting what you wanted. You can't have it both ways folks. You reap what you sow. I've found that most aren't concerned with what happens to others until it impacts them.


Right. Because a right wing republican has to hate the environment.
Just like all democrats are racing off to New Jersey to marry their gay lovers!


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## triplelunger

"Get off my river you no good, crawler dunking, ******* slob!"

"Oh wait! their drilling for oil?"

"Come back to our river and help us fight this fight as united sportsmen!"

"We won!"

"Now get off my river you no good, crawler dunking, ******* slob!"


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## Anish

http://www.freep.com/article/20130623/NEWS06/306230059/


http://www.fws.gov/midwest/es/ec/nrda/MichiganEnbridge/


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## Anish

Something that the bait fishing folks might want to consider (for the record, I do both, so this takes me out of the bitchy fest). If things go bad, whether it's drilling for oil or fracking for natural gas, you can say goodbye to anything downstream of the holy waters too. Odds are good that whatever happens will also have some impact on Lk. Huron near Oscoda.
This is way bigger than the holy waters and it's way bigger than some stupid p****** contest between two groups of people!


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## scooter_trasher

triplelunger said:


> "Get off my river you no good, crawler dunking, ******* slob!"
> 
> "Oh wait! their drilling for oil?"
> 
> "Come back to our river and help us fight this fight as united sportsmen!"
> 
> "We won!"
> 
> "Now get off my river you no good, crawler dunking, ******* slob!"


Very eloquent, but you left out the beer drinking, sucker fishing, bank maggot title I wear so proudly, hope it doesn't burn during the fly only baptism ceremony.


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## REG

If you care for the resource, you care for the resource. As said, we all live downstream so to speak if anything happens.

Perhaps, as pointed out, it can be done accident free. And as pointed out, perhaps they won't drill at all, or there's no oil anyways. But if they do, accidents do happen. 

http://www.twincities.com/national/ci_24692024/north-dakota-oil-spill-reaches-little-missouri-river

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/25/north-dakota-oil-pipeline-spills-secrecy


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## Hart

triplelunger said:


> Right. Because a right wing republican has to hate the environment.




No, they don't all have to hate the environment, but they sure support and vote for candidates who lend all appearances that they themselves do. 


In the grand scheme of right wing priorities, lets be honest: environmental protection doesn't even break into the top three. 


In fact, it's the antithesis of environmental protection in the guise of "deregulation" (or "less regulation", if you prefer) that sits in that group right behind lower taxes and smaller government.


You want smaller government and less regulation? I've been in the environmental industry for over 20 years as both a regulator and now private sector consultant, and I'll tell you for a 100% fact that environmental degradation is a byproduct of these two political "principles" whether you like it (or will admit to it) or not.


Those are just the facts.


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## Minner_Chaser

Hart said:


> No, they don't all have to hate the environment, but they sure support and vote for candidates who lend all appearances that they themselves do.
> 
> 
> In the grand scheme of right wing priorities, lets be honest: environmental protection doesn't even break into the top three.
> 
> 
> In fact, it's the antithesis of environmental protection in the guise of "deregulation" (or "less regulation", if you prefer) that sits in that group right behind lower taxes and smaller government.
> 
> 
> You want smaller government and less regulation? I've been in the environmental industry for over 20 years as both a regulator and now private sector consultant, and I'll tell you for a 100% fact that environmental degradation is a byproduct of these two political "principles" whether you like it (or will admit to it) or not.
> 
> 
> Those are just the facts.


 
Well said.


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## Minner_Chaser

Fishnmachine said:


> Where is the science and proof that anything will be destroyed?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G730A using Ohub Campfire mobile app


 
There is plenty scientific evidence that supports the fact that hydrofracking degrades the environment greatly. Even if you still refute the idea, common sense would be that forever destroy millions of gallons of water for a single well and opening up the possibility of watershed seepage is not going to be beneficial to the environment.


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## Minner_Chaser

chasenabby said:


> I work in the Oil & Gas industry here in MI.
> This industry is one of the few in MI still creating jobs.
> These jobs are local and filled with local people.
> Most people I have met are sportsmen and women and are as concerned about the enviroment as anyone.
> 
> Before everyone goes off the handle (as some have) one thing to keep in mind is that very little of actual leased acreage gets drilled.
> 
> The chances that a company will lease the land and drill are relatively low.
> 
> Also, the royalties from oil & gas in MI pay for land purchases, boat ramps, campgrounds and habitat restoration.
> 
> Oil and gas production can be done with very little impact on the enviroment. It has been done for years all over the state.


 
You can tell you're both an advocate for petroleum exploitation, and a joke.


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## Boardman Brookies

Well this didn't take long:

http://www.freep.com/article/20131212/NEWS06/312120160/Au-Sable-River-drilling


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## Boardman Brookies

More:

http://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDNR/bulletins/999de1


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## Anish

Gee, too bad nobody can win against these big oil and gas companies! :lol:. 
Glad to hear DNR made this move!


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## kzoofisher

> Soooo Kzoo it must (one word in caps) must have an effect, you seem to have used it as well. Did you spell check my post while you were at it?


 I was making fun of you. Sorry you missed it.

As for you comparison to softener brine, well that's just stupid. The brine goes to drain where it is treated at a facility or diluted over time with other water in a septic system and with no particular harm to the environment. If however you would like to propose banning softeners, go for it. My workload would increase by quite a bit without them.

Do you know anyone who uses softener brine to water their lawn? Of course not, you made up an a silly scenario to try to distract from the issue that fracking water is not reusable. Frackers leave the water deep in the ground because trying to reclaim it isn't viable. If the fossil fuel extractors want to come up with a program where they recover and reclaim the water they use I would applaud that. But they don't, they just tell us that they will put it so far away it will never hurt anyone and we should trust them. Trouble is I don't trust them. Most of them will do their best and we can hope that they don't make any mistakes. Unfortunately, mistakes happen whether you want them to or not. A few however, will feel pressure from profits below expectations or will try to increase their competitiveness and they will cut corners, not a lot but enough to accumulate over time and greatly increase the probability of a disaster. Happens all the time in every industry. Everything mechanical fails and everything we build rots away sooner or later. Even mountains eventually wash down to the sea. It's human nature and happens everywhere all the time. In most of our lives the *disaster* that results is pretty minor, e.g. a new transmission or a/c system. The disasters that come from petroleum extraction are on a whole 'nother level and the precautions taken against them happening need to be much greater. Unfortunately, the only controls we seem to have are governmental. If the industry would propose its own regulations with an honest assessment of the dangers I might feel better about it. Instead the controls are left up to each company individually with no repercussions until somebody sues them. Can't say that I blame them. If they were really open and honest about it the public would refuse to allow it at all.


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