# DNR says retirement home sits on state land, owner must remove it



## Tracker01

So at the end of this article it says that there are an additional 3,000 state land trespassing cases right now. Reading some of the comments from readers of the article makes the DNR out to be the bad guys, but I believe it to be the whole system of realestate sales is broken in cases like this.

http://www.upnorthlive.com/news/story.aspx?id=597026


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## Boozer

She built a house without ever having it surveyed!

You NEVER take anyones word with that type of thing, kind of sad, but her mistake...


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## swampbuck

She needs to find the original survey monuments and if they show it being her land. Take it to court.

I ran into the same problem a few years ago, And posted about it at the time. In my case..........

The DNR had decided to do a clear cut up mine and the neighbors property line with state land. They sent out their survey crew to mark the line. The Survey crew determined by GPS that the line was 10' off from the original survey monuments from 1951 and informed me that my garage would have to be moved, As well as the neighbors. Through consultation with a LICENSED surveyor and a Lawyer, I found out that the original monument was valid and in fact the DNR SURVEYORS COULD NOT EVEN REGISTER A NEW MARK.

We (4 propertys) informed them that we would see them in court. A couple weeks later, Here comes a different MDNR survey crew and determined with the same super accurate equipment that the line was actually only 5' off, and our buildings could stay and the surveyor actually stood there and told me "problem solved"....... Except the 
5'x366' they were taking, It wasnt a friendly conversation. (so much for the accuracy of their GPS equipment) They dropped the lawsuit and never said anymore about it. Although they did clearcut right to the 5' off mark. Literally right to my garage and driveway.

So today there are 3 property monuments (the original, 5' in, and 10' in) on my south property line. I really dont know which one they claim, and dont care. I go off the original REGISTERED MONUMENT.

They have been doing this all over the state. The problem is that if they move just one line it effects every line including section, township,county and state. How many houses do they really want to move.


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## Tracker01

I purchased my house a year ago, granted I live within a small town, and it was my first time purchasing so I didn't think much about having a survey of the property. But after the deal is said and done I was talking with my new neighbor about a previous sale of the house where it was listed as 75' of road front instead of the actual 60' of road front. The house sold saying 75' foot even though my neighbor mentioned the problem to the realtor. That deal could have been a mess if my neighbor wasn't a nice guy and didn't want to sell the 15' of road front property. I now have a survey report from the old homeowner showing the 75' road front property. So I guess that is why I was saying that it could be a broken real estate sales problem.

I have also heard that old fence lines were determined by the owner by going near the edge of their property and throwing an ax (or similar tool) and where it landed thats where the fence would go. So them saying an old fence line as the property marker isn't a very solid point.


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## swampbuck

She needs to have it surveyed from the original monument from when the property was platted. It is there somewhere.


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## Michihunter

swampbuck said:


> She needs to find the original survey monuments and if they show it being her land. Take it to court.
> 
> I ran into the same problem a few years ago, And posted about it at the time. In my case..........
> 
> The DNR had decided to do a clear cut up mine and the neighbors property line with state land. They sent out their survey crew to mark the line. The Survey crew determined by GPS that the line was 10' off from the original survey monuments from 1951 and informed me that my garage would have to be moved, As well as the neighbors. Through consultation with a LICENSED surveyor and a Lawyer, I found out that the original monument was valid and in fact the DNR SURVEYORS COULD NOT EVEN REGISTER A NEW MARK.
> 
> We (4 propertys) informed them that we would see them in court. A couple weeks later, Here comes a different MDNR survey crew and determined with the same super accurate equipment that the line was actually only 5' off, and our buildings could stay and the surveyor actually stood there and told me "problem solved"....... Except the
> 5'x366' they were taking, It wasnt a friendly conversation. (so much for the accuracy of their GPS equipment) They dropped the lawsuit and never said anymore about it. Although they did clearcut right to the 5' off mark. Literally right to my garage and driveway.
> 
> So today there are 3 property monuments (the original, 5' in, and 10' in) on my south property line. I really dont know which one they claim, and dont care. I go off the original REGISTERED MONUMENT.
> 
> They have been doing this all over the state. The problem is that if they move just one line it effects every line including section, township,county and state. How many houses do they really want to move.


Curious about something Swamp. Can you go after them to reimburse you for the taxes you paid and they collected on "their" property? I would imagine if this property has been in your possession for a long period of time you'd be entitled to a nice chunk of change(with interest of course).


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## spuds

The state was surveying property of there's in iron county a few years back with a gps and had ribbons hanging on one of my out buildings and on my fence. They said it was there property and they were going to do some logging.I told them to go ahead and when they get done I would have a surveyor come in and do it after they cut it off and they can pay for the trees they cut. They decided to have it done right and were 28 feet off on a 40 acre line. The guy with the gps wasn't a very nice guy either.


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## swampbuck

Michihunter said:


> Curious about something Swamp. Can you go after them to reimburse you for the taxes you paid and they collected on "their" property? I would imagine if this property has been in your possession for a long period of time you'd be entitled to a nice chunk of change(with interest of course).


Well I didnt have to move my building, And the suit was dropped. I ended up losing 5 oak trees. The original survey is still the only survey registered.

I have learned from my expierience and other's, That sometimes its better to let sleeping dogs lie when dealing with the MDNR...I Think I did OK, As long as they never try to make their "survey" official.

My father bought the property in 1951, built my house in '57. I have owned it 11 years

About 5-10 years ago the whole state was resurveyed using gps equipment. Everything was redone down to section lines. The found that the rod and chain measurements were sometimes off And now when ever they (dnr) survey they go off the new lines. Problem is that if they move one line they have to move them all like dominoes. Unless someone does not stand up to them, they will roll over them. The lic. surveyor that I consulted( he did some of the renumeration in this area) told me that a difference of up to 2 feet they may be able to make stick, beyond that they can not win.


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## bucko12pt

Actually, the re-monumentation program by the state is ongoing. The state surveyed half of our property
(Kalkaska Co) last year and will be doing the other half sometime in the near future. Fortunately ours came out really close to existing and they did install new monuments on the quarters.

When they first started this new survey 5-10 years ago, they started surveying down to 40 acres, but they stirred up so many people and caused so many legal issues that they currently only survey down to 1/4 sections. I remember there being some terrible problems in the Harbor Springs/Petoskey that caused a number of problems.

I saw this case on the local news the other day and not sure where this lady's problem stems from, but bet it's 
the result of the re-monumentation program, maybe not of her property, but a survey started from one of the markers.:evil:


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## Nick Adams

swampbuck said:


> About 5-10 years ago the whole state was resurveyed using gps equipment. Everything was redone down to section lines. The found that the rod and chain measurements were sometimes off And now when ever they (dnr) survey they go off the new lines.


The GLO section corners originally placed in the late 1800's are controlling, whether they were accurately placed or not. It's amazing how many of those you can still find evidence of in the field when you start looking for them. Registered plats/surveys based on those original corners are also solid in court. Anything else is pretty weak.

Sections were never broken down further than exterior quarter corners during the original GLO survey. The problem is that lots of land has changed hands over the years by legal description with no formal surveys. Many unregistered, informal interior corners have become accepted without having ever been formally surveyed and people have built houses, roads, camps and and garages close to these unsurveyed lines based on them. When you resurvey the interior corners of a section based on the old original GLO corners using the rules of land division and the better equipment available today, like the state and feds have been doing, you find that many of those unregistered, interior corners dividing up a section were poorly located. 

I wouldn't blame the state for fixing up the interior corners. In a vast majority of the cases where problems arise, I'd blame previous landowners for being too cheap to get a proper survey done before building that close to an ambiguous property line and/or failing to secure title insurance when buying such a property.

-na


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## swampbuck

In my case they surveyed off a section corner. Which they said was 18"off. That section corner is also the corner of the sub and is 1500 feet to the original monument on my south edge(10-150'wide lots) I had the measurements checked from the section corner by a friend who is a licensed surveyer in buiseness for decades. The 1500 ft measurement to my monument from the original section corner is 9 inches off.

The problem is that many of the properties where surveyed up to a century ago (1951 in my case) with the methods used at the time and registered. For them to come along now and say that was all wrong, move your house or we will........Is just plain wrong.

As long as those houses were built based on registered survey markers at the time the property was purchased and/or buildings constructed. The DNR will lose when it goes to court.


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## William H Bonney

I always find this "survey" threads very amusing. 

Why is the original survey ALWAYS WRONG?? :lol:

Then subsequently so are the survey's done by the title and mortgage companies. Only to end up in court to find out that the original survey is "probably" correct and will stand? 



And to the best of my knowledge,,, regardless of how much the State pays for their GPS technology, they're still limited to using the same satellites as everyone else. I know of no special rules that the Federal Government has that allows the MDNR to use more satellites to ensure survey accuracy??? 

Can anyone comment on that??


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## Nick Adams

William H Bonney said:


> I know of no special rules that the Federal Government has that allows the MDNR to use more satellites to ensure survey accuracy???
> 
> Can anyone comment on that??


The accuracy and precision of GPS equipment is largely based on the quality of the equipment and the techniques used, more than the number of satellites seen (to a point).

The consumer grade units are usually only good to something like 20-60'. If you willing to pay up to $1000 or so you can get a unit that will give you positions down to 1-3 meters. The equipment and software the surveyors are using can cost up into the $10,000 range and can give you positions down to centimeters or millimeters.

Like computers, the technologly keep getting better and the costs keep coming down, but the general principle that more precision comes with better equipment applies.

The original survey (late 1800s) is always right (by definition). Subsequent surveys since then haven't always been right (equipment limitations, sloppy work) and a few of them have been downright fraudulent.

-na


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## Robert Holmes

Who is the DNR trying to fool? Mabey they should give "their land" back to the native americans who owned it to begin with. And while they are at it they can give back the mineral and logging rights too. I would love for them to tell me that my house is on their land.


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## bucko12pt

Robert Holmes said:


> Who is the DNR trying to fool? Mabey they should give "their land" back to the native americans who owned it to begin with. And while they are at it they can give back the mineral and logging rights too. I would love for them to tell me that my house is on their land.


Careful what you wish for.:yikes:


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## lostontheice

take this how ever you want..the original marker stands in court..and if you dont have the placement of the that marker..they go off the first origanal closest to you..the attempts that the dnr has been going for a long time and will continue..for every 1 person that takes it to court..100 dont..and for every one that dont..they put the rest in jepordy..the grid system is a set system...so if they move one line..the rest get moved..always check with the survey crew if they are working in your area and ask them what they are going off of..your neighbors line controls yours..and logging crews are good for bringing in "a home crew" depending on the trees in the area..and you would be surprised how many survey crews have no clue on there job,and how lazy they are..i.e. cross a river..nope..cross a fence..nope..most find a fence line and go off it..fences and fence post are not a survey marker...and roads are not a marker either..its corner stake to corner stake..just my .02..


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## bigcountrysg

You could have the property surveyed by 5 different companies. Guess what I bet they all get a different point. No matter how accurate the equipment is.


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## BigSteve

I like how they want her to purchase 60 acre to swap for 2.5.


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## Nick Adams

bigcountrysg said:


> You could have the property surveyed by 5 different companies. Guess what I bet they all get a different point. No matter how accurate the equipment is.


If they are all reasonably competent surveyors the difference between them will be a matter of inches or less, not half a house length.

This is also why it's a good idea to

a) get your survey recorded at the county courthouse. Once it's recorded it's a lot more difficult to dispute in court. This usually costs extra, so many people don't make the effort.

b) not build within several feet of a property line on a parcel purchased through legal description, surveyed or not.

-na


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## TSS Caddis

Robert Holmes said:


> Who is the DNR trying to fool? Mabey they should give "their land" back to the native americans who owned it to begin with. And while they are at it they can give back the mineral and logging rights too. I would love for them to tell me that my house is on their land.



Where does that stop? With tribal wars, do you think the tribe on a piece of property when Europeans arrived was really the original tribe that had been there from the begining of time? 

I look at it this way, up till recent times, it was an acceptable practice to use force to acquire land. Both with Europeans and Native Americans. It is what it is now, deal with it.

If you start looking to repatriate property to Tribe X, you will have Tribe Y claiming it was theirs before it was Tribe X's.


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