# For all the experienced muzzleloaders



## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

UkiahDog said:


> .... I watched a show the other day where Shockey took an animal, at 278 ballistic range. Dropped it.


I seen the same show and if I remember correctly didn't he say that he held 18" over on that shot? Wonder what he actually has the rifle zeroed at?


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Yup, TCJimmy stated that he held 18 inches over the back. He also stated that he had ZERO wind and a couple lackies with their bullistic LP range finders that had zeroed the animal. He also stated that was BY FAR his longest shot and repeated DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.

With all due respect. GOOD for him. Impressive bullet placement on that schamois. Without a doubt, he's put the time in and knows his iron better than 99.99. The guy has done his homework. 

I HATE hunting shows. But I will say this. JS is a guy who has been there done that. The only guy to do the ultimate slam with a MLer. Regardless how he did it, that's pretty darned impressive. A tip of the hat.

Is he a slave to TC? Hmmm.... Can't blame the guy. TC makes a great product, and it affords him the opportunity. No different than the guy who slaps Kow on his helmet and only rides their bikes. Truth be known, he'd be a winner with most any product. That's how the game works and TC spends more than all others combined.

I digress. 

TJO nailed it. He has learned what those who are too brand (or cal) loyal refuse to admit. A 50 cal isn't the answer. At the risk of highjacking the thread (maybe you can start a new one), I'd be most interested in knowing the length, twist, and manufacturer of your 45 bbl. What .40dia bullet are you pushing at 2700? How is it holding up? Ever tried to push a .358 bullet?

Everybody's selling something. Usually it's what's in their safe, bc that's what they've invested in. They want the validation that they made the right decision. Afterall, that's really what we want, not advice.

In the case of the "pros," they're getting "reimbursed" for using the manufacturer's product. 

I will say this. I have owned six in-line MLers of various manufacture. Not one of them is the awnser for your 250 yard rifle. TJO's custom job is the only way to get there. If you're looking for a quality 100'ish yard MLer, they'll all get you there. The differences are cosmetic.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

ENCORE said:


> RZ you might want to check the sabots. First you said that it was your "understanding that they simply made them thinner", then you "hope they didn't make them more pliable,". Which one is it?  (*Just kidding with ya*)


encore - to be completely honest - I don't know what they did! however, i know this - shooting at high speeds - that is, 300 grain bullets OVER 2,100 fps, i can predict with the utmost certainty, that the easier the sabot goes down the barrel, the lesser the accuracy.

maybe its a speed thing. maybe its a smokeless thing. but i've got 4 or 5 different MMP sabots in the box right now, with a few more types of harvester sabots, and will absolutely concur that sabots make as much (or more) difference in accuracy as the bullet.

if the super glides work for ya, use 'em. use any sabot that works for ya, its a crucial component.

out of curiosity - did you measure the outside base with the calipers as well?


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## UkiahDog (May 12, 2008)

I thought JS shot Knight for a while? I could swear I've seen some older photos of him with a Knight. Either way he's a freak and, although not many people could not hope to compare to him, it still helps to set the benchmark that other companies and shooters are going to try to surpass. Thus, continuing the technological development of the new muzzleloaders.

I think he's an advertising whore. Don't get me wrong, I would be too if I could! How can you complain about getting paid to hunt and all sorts of free gear. But, American Pioneer powder (I still don't know about those sticks, and I bet he uses the loose powder instead), T/C now instead of Knight. Every time he shoots any game he throws in a "plug". Wonder if he gets a little add on royalty check for each "plug" he makes?

Anyway, thanks to one of you guys who PM'ed me a web page with a TON of muzzleloader info. I have found the next load I'm going to try.

If I can get the Blackhorn locally, great. If not, I'm finishing this test with 777 powder. I'll try that stuff when it becomes available here.

Barnes 275 grain XPB .451 handgun bullet for the 460 S&W. I'll pair that with an MMP HPH/24 sabot, and if that's too tight I'll try the EZ 3 Petal sabot. Cost is actually close to the old load I was using, surprisingly. The HPH sabot will handle the hotter blackhorn powder if I can find it.

These bullets look like they might be a winner, and I have to try this combo. Copper, hollow point, BC of .220 (somewhat arbitrary). But either way, I'll post results and a photo of the target when I'm done.

Some people have trouble with the Barnes being tight in a T/C. I think the MMP sabots will help. 

I guess I can only do as good as the gun I have, and my shooting and conditions on that particular day, but I read some great reviews on that gun before I bought it and cost was an issue. I'm sure I'll be looking at something else to add to the collection in a couple of years, but I'll be getting a new bow first. So I have to make this work as good as it possibly can for now.

It sounds like some people are advocate of the .45 cal. I can only imagine what you'd think of the .54 cal. I guess everything has it's niche in the game.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

rzdrmh said:


> .....out of curiosity - did you measure the outside base with the calipers as well?[/quote
> 
> .503" to .503" Identical.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

UkiahDog said:


> I guess I can only do as good as the gun I have, and my shooting and conditions on that particular day, but I read some great reviews on that gun before I bought it and cost was an issue. I'm sure I'll be looking at something else to add to the collection in a couple of years, but I'll be getting a new bow first. So I have to make this work as good as it possibly can for now.
> 
> .


Your gun is an excellent gun! I love my Encore but would not hesitate to own or shoot the Triumph. You're right though, once you get bit by the muzzleloading bug, you'll be looking to add another or more to the stable. 

The Barnes bullets are good bullets. I use them in my rifles, shotgun slugs, and muzzleloaders. There performance on game is second to none.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

UkiahDog said:


> Barnes 275 grain XPB .451 handgun bullet for the 460 S&W. I'll pair that with an MMP HPH/24 sabot, and if that's too tight I'll try the EZ 3 Petal sabot. Cost is actually close to the old load I was using, surprisingly. The HPH sabot will handle the hotter blackhorn powder if I can find it.
> 
> These bullets look like they might be a winner, and I have to try this combo. Copper, hollow point, BC of .220 (somewhat arbitrary). But either way, I'll post results and a photo of the target when I'm done.


i certainly hope you didn't get the implication that the firearm that you purchased was _inferior_, quite the contrary. i simply believe that the caliber you chose is not up to the task of 250 yards (an incidentally, i've never owned a 45 cal muzzleloader, though i will someday). i don't doubt that someone can make a 50 cal muzzleloader a 250 or even 300 yard gun. its simply easier to do with a smaller caliber.

in regards to your load selection, the XPB is a great bullet, if it shoots. the general consensus is that when shooting copper - the faster, the better. really seems to shine at top speed.

i still have some XPB's around from when they first came out. the hph24 is too loose in my barrel, it would have to be married to the short black or the hph12. i'm reluctant to make changes, because the SST's shoot so well from my savage, and they are quite a bit less money. can't say as though i need the XPB for deer, but then again, i don't need the barnes original's that i'll be testing soon either.. ;-)

good luck.


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## UkiahDog (May 12, 2008)

Right. I looked at the Barnes Originals, but thought I'd try the all copper hollow-points first. I can always try the HPH-12 if it's loose. If it's slow I'll find the Blackhorn209.

But, point taken. If they're off I'll try those originals next. I started with the SST's. The red sabot version, though, and want to try a different brand bullet first.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

the problem i have with the SST's is the operational speed limitation.

shooting them 2360 from the muzzle is going to limit some of my shot selection - they just aren't meant to be shot at that speed. broadside chest shots would be required inside of 100 yards.

the barnes original can be driven as fast as possible, and will never fail.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

ukiahdog - 

i think its important to note also -

don't discredit 100 yard groups, but don't depend on them either.

for example:

two different loads:

65 grains IMR4198, Remington .458" hollow point, 300 grains, MMP orange sabot, traveling in the 2350 fps neighborhood. last time at the range, this shot 5 out of six shots in a .7" group. i was tickled. moved out to 200 yards. 3 shots produced a 9" group, and i stopped there. simply fell apart - i've not been able to get a hollow point to group at 200 yet.

next load - the one i'm planning on shooting this year - 65 grains IMR4198, 300 grain Hornady SST (.452"), MMP short black sabot, traveling slightly faster - 2365 fps. shoots on average, at 100, 1.25" - pretty darned respectable, but not as pretty at .7". but at 200 yards, it holds MOA (as long as i do my part - this is a rather stout recoiling load ;-)

i guess my point is - verify at 100, but if you're trying to get 200 yards +, you need to shoot mostly at that distance. it would be easy to disregard a 2" group at 100 as not accurate enough. but if that group holds 4" at 200, you've got a legitimate hunting load.


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