# St Joe update at fish ladders



## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

So basically what I got out of it was this...

If they did not allow them to run when the fish wanted to run, they fear they would not run as far as they would if unhindered, meaning Indiana may not get as many fish that way...

Bottom line, it's all about Indiana getting steelhead to their section of the Joe. I can understand their desire to get returns on their investment.

I would be very curious to see how many dead skams there are below Twin Branch Dam this year with the numbers that ascended into Indiana waters. There certainly was large numbers of dead skams below Niles and Buchanan Dams this Summer littering the river bottom, which sadly, isn't uncommon... This Summer was a very cool one as well, so you can imagine the results during Summers which get a good run of fish, then the weather gets hot and stays that way...

The main places they have to sit out the Summer in heat, pack them into areas the size of swimming pools where guys day after day rape the hell out of them, many being flossed and often guys hooking and releasing 10 or more a day, to swim away and die. There needs to at the very least be regulation changes so that an angler must get their limit and leave or not fish at all, this would at least limit the number of fish dying due to being released into a habitat that is not suitable for them. Instead we get hook size limitations which do essentially nothing as the only real amount of snagging going on is with small flies and long leaders at the creek mouths...

Once the Pucker St Dam is gone, that will be the end of any Summer Skamania fishing on the Dowagiac in a lot of ways as most the fish which ascend that river will blow right through the lower river up into the upper reaches where hardly anyone can access them, that will in all likelihood drop interest in coming here to fish for skams even more or put more interest on fishing the creek mouths...

I knowing they will never close the ladders would like to see some of the smaller creek mouths closed to fishing in the Summer, I think if the fish at these cold tribs were left alone to rest out the hot Summer, many more would survive. I think they get forced up river at these small creek mouths as they are constantly being harassed and it leads to many more being trapped in the warm main river...


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## danimalt14 (Aug 30, 2012)

boozer said:


> once the pucker st dam is gone, that will be the end of any summer skamania fishing on the dowagiac in a lot of ways as most the fish which ascend that river will blow right through the lower river up into the upper reaches where hardly anyone can access them, that will in all likelihood drop interest in coming here to fish for skams even more or put more interest on fishing the creek mouths...
> 
> I knowing they will never close the ladders would like to see some of the smaller creek mouths closed to fishing in the summer, i think if the fish at these cold tribs were left alone to rest out the hot summer, many more would survive. I think they get forced up river at these small creek mouths as they are constantly being harassed and it leads to many more being trapped in the warm main river...



that is one of the main reasons i am against the dam removal project..absolute pitchfork snag fest upriver in the narrows--i can just about guarantee it..

Need a catchcard system--during summer--you catch a skam, punch yer card n call it a day..


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## hogmansp (Dec 17, 2011)

Has anyone seen photos of the Pucker st. Dam section before the Dam was established?


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

hogmansp said:


> Has anyone seen photos of the Pucker st. Dam section before the Dam was established?


I have been told it was a rapid like boulder field prior to the dam being built...


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## TheXtremeFlosser (Sep 6, 2010)

Brian's take on your backyard is interesting. In the past years, some of these "cold water" areas have lost a significant amount of depth from the spring/fall floods we've got. Do you think this has contributed to the large fish kills by the dams this summer (forcing them back into the deeper warm water)? 

It has been impressive to see some make it into fall seasons staying the main stem of the St. Joe, and they are still fun to catch in October. It will be interesting to see how many are around this fall. I am very grateful for the IN-MI ladder project, IN stocking efforts for skams, and Brian's response. Such an awesome fish! Hope you are doing well buddy!


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## hogmansp (Dec 17, 2011)

Boozer said:


> I have been told it was a rapid like boulder field prior to the dam being built...


I was given a photo that I will try and dig up of the area. It was a boulder field stuffed with brush. Kinda like a dam!


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## johnny5alive (Jun 11, 2011)

So the ladder thread has been taken over by another Flossing everyone is a snagger because I dont like other people fishing my spot thread?

A flyline with a 8foot mono to a single fly is a flossing rig.:lol: The things people come up with. I guess if you use 150 yards of mono on a spinning rod its not a flossing rig.

Skam fishing is going to end on the D with dam removal? :lol:


Is this michigan sportsman or Myth busters?


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

johnny5alive said:


> So the ladder thread has been taken over by another Flossing everyone is a snagger because I dont like other people fishing my spot thread?
> 
> A flyline with a 8foot mono to a single fly is a flossing rig.:lol: The things people come up with. I guess if you use 150 yards of mono on a spinning rod its not a flossing rig.
> 
> ...


You clearly did not read anything posted here, with the exception of the comment about many skams disappearing way up into the upper reaches of the system where most anglers can't access them, every single thing you stated was said here, was not... The one thing you stated was wrong and was stated here, is very true they will without a doubt not hold in that lower 3-4 miles of river like they have since they were able to reach that tributary during the Summer months, they will haul **** up river like they are wired to do and most will never be seen again...

Many people don't want the dam removed because of that, myself, I think it is good for the river and am happy it is going to be removed, but I do agree there will no doubt be a decrease in opportunities for the average guy to catch skams in that river after it is gone...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

johnny5alive said:


> So the ladder thread has been taken over by another Flossing everyone is a snagger because I dont like other people fishing my spot thread?
> 
> A flyline with a 8foot mono to a single fly is a flossing rig.:lol: The things people come up with. I guess if you use 150 yards of mono on a spinning rod its not a flossing rig.
> 
> ...



Once Skams decided to ascend a river, they push up as far as they possibly can it's the biology of these fish.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

TheXtremeFlosser said:


> Brian's take on your backyard is interesting. In the past years, some of these "cold water" areas have lost a significant amount of depth from the spring/fall floods we've got. Do you think this has contributed to the large fish kills by the dams this summer (forcing them back into the deeper warm water)?
> 
> It has been impressive to see some make it into fall seasons staying the main stem of the St. Joe, and they are still fun to catch in October. It will be interesting to see how many are around this fall. I am very grateful for the IN-MI ladder project, IN stocking efforts for skams, and Brian's response. Such an awesome fish! Hope you are doing well buddy!


Yes, I have seen tremendous decreases in flow in those tribs over the years and they no doubt hold less fish.

I would not say that is to blame persay though, there is a multitude of places for them to hold and most would survive the Summer at them IF they were left alone, the problem is, basically every single one of those spots is no secret and they are harassed all Summer long, forcing many of them to leave the creek mouths when they otherwise would likely not leave them.

You will never stop all of the fish kills from heat stress, but it definitely could be reduced.

I am doing well buddy, hope you are too!


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

Boozer said:


> Once the Pucker St Dam is gone, that will be the end of any Summer Skamania fishing on the Dowagiac in a lot of ways as most the fish which ascend that river will blow right through the lower river up into the upper reaches where hardly anyone can access them, that will in all likelihood drop interest in coming here to fish for skams even more or put more interest on fishing the creek mouths...
> 
> ...


True that! How will that effect overall returns to IN/ Mishawaka? I guess we will see if the dam removal becomes reality.

Thanks for reaching out to IDNR.


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## johnny5alive (Jun 11, 2011)

Boozer said:


> You clearly did not read anything posted here, with the exception of the comment about many skams disappearing way up into the upper reaches of the system where most anglers can't access them, every single thing you stated was said here, was not... The one thing you stated was wrong and was stated here, is very true they will without a doubt not hold in that lower 3-4 miles of river like they have since they were able to reach that tributary during the Summer months, they will haul **** up river like they are wired to do and most will never be seen again...
> 
> Many people don't want the dam removed because of that, myself, I think it is good for the river and am happy it is going to be removed, but I do agree there will no doubt be a decrease in opportunities for the average guy to catch skams in that river after it is gone...


Oh I read it

"pack them into areas the size of swimming pools where guys day after day rape the hell out of them, many being flossed and often guys hooking and releasing 10 or more a day, to swim away and die. There needs to at the very least be regulation changes so that an angler must get their limit and leave or not fish at all, this would at least limit the number of fish dying due to being released into a habitat that is not suitable for them. Instead we get hook size limitations which do essentially nothing as the only real amount of snagging going on is with small flies and long leaders at the creek mouths..."

so.....you didnt read my post. You accuse fly fishermen of being snaggers. Using 8ft of mono leaders makes you a snagger. It should be illegal to fish creek mouths because the congregate fish but the D Dam should remain because it wouldnt congregate fish anymore where people can catch them. 

Sure sounds like you want other people to stop catching fish that are schooled up but dont want your spots changed were the fish are all bunched up


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

johnny5alive said:


> Oh I read it
> 
> Sure sounds like you want other people to stop catching fish that are schooled up but dont want your spots changed were the fish are all bunched up



Sounds like he wants less wasted skams and more protection at places of thermal refuge, to me...


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

johnny5alive said:


> Oh I read it
> 
> "pack them into areas the size of swimming pools where guys day after day rape the hell out of them, many being flossed and often guys hooking and releasing 10 or more a day, to swim away and die. There needs to at the very least be regulation changes so that an angler must get their limit and leave or not fish at all, this would at least limit the number of fish dying due to being released into a habitat that is not suitable for them. Instead we get hook size limitations which do essentially nothing as the only real amount of snagging going on is with small flies and long leaders at the creek mouths..."
> 
> ...


Dude...

If you were going to label me, it would be "fly fisherman" most of the year...

What you fail to realize is, it's not all fly fisherman flossing, you can do it just as easily with a spinning rod and 4' of leader to a small fly. I was not singling out fly fisherman or any fisherman for that matter, well except for guys lining fish which would be about 75% of them, however, even that was not my point nor what I was addressing here. The only reason that was mentioned is, the MDNR put hook size restrictions on some of the creek mouths, because they feel it would help deter snagging, but what they need to realize is, the bulk of "snagging" being done isn't with large hooks, it's via flossing with all types of gear...

Your statement that I want other people to stop catching fish, but don't want my spots changed, doesn't even make sense...

I don't fish for skams at creek mouths, I haven't for many years, why not, because I have no desire to keep them and I know they wont survive release 99% of the time...

I have no issues with guys catching some and keeping them, my issues are with the guys hooking several throughout the day and releasing them into 70+ degree water...

MDNR promotes and pushes a 70 degree pledge for Brown Trout, why not Skamania?

What would be the big deal of putting up a few buoys and signs to close fishing at a half dozen small creek mouths each Summer and give these fish a refuge?


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

ausable_steelhead said:


> Sounds like he wants less wasted skams and more protection at places of thermal refuge, to me...


That would be correct!


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

REG said:


> True that! How will that effect overall returns to IN/ Mishawaka? I guess we will see if the dam removal becomes reality.
> 
> Thanks for reaching out to IDNR.


My guess is, it wont effect IN returns one bit...

The fish that enter that system, I highly doubt drop back out and head up to IN...

This year, with the main river temps being cooler, more fish made it to IN than some years, other years more fish would enter the Dowagiac for refuge, so main river temps would be the only real factor in how many fish that trib takes out of the total number of fish that make it to IN...


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## hogmansp (Dec 17, 2011)

Boozer said:


> My guess is, it wont effect IN returns one bit...
> 
> The fish that enter that system, I highly doubt drop back out and head up to IN...
> 
> This year, with the main river temps being cooler, more fish made it to IN than some years, other years more fish would enter the Dowagiac for refuge, so main river temps would be the only real factor in how many fish that trib takes out of the total number of fish that make it to IN...


Not sure if we need to keep heading this direction in this thread so I can move my post if need be. Question would be with the removal of the Pucker st dam. Would that cause a more consistant cooler temp at the mouth on exiting into the Joe which in turn could increase the run of none drop backs that will choose to run the Dowagiac instead of heading south?


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## StonedFly (Feb 24, 2012)

There should be a keep your catch law enforced for the summer. 2 fish limit. Absolutely no releasing. Once you have your limit, you're done for the day. I really like the idea of buoy markers closing creek mouth sections too. Great idea.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

hogmansp said:


> Not sure if we need to keep heading this direction in this thread so I can move my post if need be. Question would be with the removal of the Pucker st dam. Would that cause a more consistant cooler temp at the mouth on exiting into the Joe which in turn could increase the run of none drop backs that will choose to run the Dowagiac instead of heading south?


It will likely make a slight difference in temps, but warm rains and hot weather will still shoot that river into the mid 70's in the Summer, no doubt about it...

Not quite sure what you mean by drop-backs, you talking about in the Spring?


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

StonedFly said:


> There should be a keep your catch law enforced for the summer. 2 fish limit. Absolutely no releasing. Once you have your limit, you're done for the day. I really like the idea of buoy markers closing creek mouth sections too. Great idea.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Michigan CO's have stated to me they would like to see such a rule on the books, they know what goes on with all the fish getting released to die, but currently, the laws do not allow them to do anything about it...


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## STEELHEAD JUNKIE (Feb 20, 2010)

That rule should be on the books. Those fish just die! Sad for sure.

Tight Lines!


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## StonedFly (Feb 24, 2012)

Think about how good fall swingin season could be if skams weren't crushed all summer long...

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## hogmansp (Dec 17, 2011)

Boozer said:


> It will likely make a slight difference in temps, but warm rains and hot weather will still shoot that river into the mid 70's in the Summer, no doubt about it...
> 
> Not quite sure what you mean by drop-backs, you talking about in the Spring?


Just referring to the potention increase run up the Dowagiac that will not return to the Joe (dropping back from the Dowagiac flow) and head up stream to Indiana. I should have worded it a little different sorry. Just thinking that if there is a few degree temp change that it may trigger more of a run up the Dowagiac decreasing the run south. Is there a proposed restoration plan for the removal of the Dam?


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Indiana should stop stocking the St.Jo River with skams. The fact Michigan wants to charge us out of towners 75 bucks to catch fish they we already paid for with our Indiana license is ridiculous!!!! :rant:


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

hogmansp said:


> Just referring to the potention increase run up the Dowagiac that will not return to the Joe (dropping back from the Dowagiac flow) and head up stream to Indiana. I should have worded it a little different sorry. Just thinking that if there is a few degree temp change that it may trigger more of a run up the Dowagiac decreasing the run south. Is there a proposed restoration plan for the removal of the Dam?


I doubt the dam removal will make any real changes in the amount of Indiana's fish that don't go to Indiana. 

To me, that is more reliant on main river temps when the fish are running hard than anything. If the main river is pretty warm, they are going to be more apt to go up the Dowagiac, this year it was pretty clear they were blowing right past it and the Dowagiac was very very cool most of the Summer due to the cooler air temperatures we had.

I do not believe many skamania that enter the Dowagiac, drop back out of it and ascend to Indiana, once they are in there, my guess is, they stay til Spring. However, no studies have ever been done to know for sure.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

steely74 said:


> Indiana should stop stocking the St.Jo River with skams. The fact Michigan wants to charge us out of towners 75 bucks to catch fish they we already paid for with our Indiana license is ridiculous!!!! :rant:


I would venture to guess and this is simply my observations, but 75% of the anglers that travel here from far away to fish the Joe in Michigan, do so to fish for Walleye, not Salmon or Trout...

You got to look at it this way, you may have to pay that to fish here, but we have chrome fresh fish to offer once Fall comes, not to many fresh fish in Indiana to play with so consider it a chrome tax 

I always buy an Indiana license to support the program, even though I very very rarely fish there...


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

steely74 said:


> Indiana should stop stocking the St.Jo River with skams. The fact Michigan wants to charge us out of towners 75 bucks to catch fish they we already paid for with our Indiana license is ridiculous!!!! :rant:


I seriously doubt that MI takes any consideration for Indiana people who buy IN liscenses and fish the Joe. I bet they make up 1/4 of 1% of total out of state license buyers in MI. 75 bucks is a great deal for a year long license. Up here its 250 bucks for an out of stater.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

I just bi*** and moan about it every chance I get :rant:  :lol:

I don't think they took into account all the other taxable dollars out of staters bring into the state of Michigan. Hotels, gas, food, bait and tackle. Not 100% sure but I think it was the governor's decision and not the DNR's.

A wisconsin out of state license is 60 bucks and that is enough to keep some fisherman away. 75 bucks is just outrageous for a person who plans of fishing a few times a year...


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

steely74 said:


> I just bi*** and moan about it every chance I get :rant:  :lol:
> 
> I don't think they took into account all the other taxable dollars out of staters bring into the state of Michigan. Hotels, gas, food, bait and tackle. Not 100% sure but I think it was the governor's decision and not the DNR's.
> 
> A wisconsin out of state license is 60 bucks and that is enough to keep some fisherman away. 75 bucks is just outrageous for a person who plans of fishing a few times a year...


75 bucks is not outrageous when you consider what Michigan's fisheries have to offer in comparison to other states...

If you only fish here a handful of days each year, why buy a full season license?

My guess is, $75 doesn't keep away anyone who would spend any money in our economy, so that is definitely a moot point as well...

Heck, $75 isn't even a tank of gas in my Jeep these days! LOL

If you fish in Michigan just 25 days a year, that's a mere $3 each day for your license fees... Think about it...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Boozer said:


> 75 bucks is not outrageous when you consider what Michigan's fisheries have to offer in comparison to other states...
> 
> If you only fish here a handful of days each year, why buy a full season license?
> 
> ...


Monopolized.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Everything is better in Wisconsin except the river fishery... Their rivers suck compared to Michigan's rivers. 

I buy a yearly all species license for IL,IN, WI, and MI and its not cheap... Since January I have been in MI countless times. Like I said I am just gonna bi*** about it every chance I get :lol:. 
42 to 75 is a big hike, there are lot of fisherman on other forums upset about the increase as well...


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