# Freep-Firearms deer opener needs tweak



## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

Hey I love opening on the 15th Keeps all you working stiffs at work and us retired folks out hunting :lol: :lol: I vote to open it on weekdays only :lol: ...m


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## halfcore (Nov 11, 2003)

Swamp Ghost said:


> The Nov. 15th opener is probably the biggest problem with the firearms season, Sharps solution may not be the most ideal, IMO, but it does shed some light on the problem to a very broad audience.
> 
> One problem with multiple openers is that you would have to have region specific licenses.
> 
> I think a Dec. 1 opener in the SLP would be an outstanding way of improving hunting in So. MI.


YES! DEC 1 for two weeks, any firearm (muzzle, etc). Then last two weeks of DEC for additional mgt purposes like doe only, private land, etc.


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## bentduck (Aug 19, 2003)

I think that if we "float" the opener each year to a weekend we should shorten or eliminate some of the other "special" seasons. In my opinion deer season is too long and all these attempts at making it easier to shoot deer only illustrates how hunters / hunting has degenerated over the years. We have all gotten fat and lazy and blame everyone but ourselves for our lack of success. Remember we have 20 bazzilion deer in this state and about 4 months of deer season so enough with the excuses... 

Just my humble opinion


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## fairfax1 (Jun 12, 2003)

Seems to me that the DNR has attempted to: 
*1.* Accomodate as many hunters as possible with the longest 'window of opportunity' to kill a deer...hence the long bow season, 15 day rifle season, longer muzzle-season this year, special antlerless season, youth season, etc.
*2.* Encourage more hunters by maintaining a fixed opener date which facilitates long range planning for vacations or time-off;
*3.* Done all this so that MORE deer will be killed. 

Yet, even with all these user-friendly tactics there are DMU's that continue to have too many deer.


Further, as much as I'd love to see the gun opener pushed later into the month of November (I am afterall, a bow-guy) I don't think the November 15th opener has that significant an impact on breeding success. Breeding and pregnancies seem to be doing just fine ..witness the growing herd in the SLP. If the gun-guys are disrupting amore'.... evidently they're not doing a real good job of it.

I would like to see the DNR speak to issues such as the timing of the opener or other such oft-discussed issues....on a website like this would be great, or even on their own website.

I'm a supporter of much of what the Department does...how they estimate populations, the kill, hunter effort, etc. After all, these guys ...and their peers in other big deer states which they conference with...have been managing hunters and hunted for 80 or 90 years. Their statistical models and protocols for estimating have been road-tested not only in Michigan, Wisconsin, New York Pennsylvania, and Texas... but also and in the Universities that educated their biologists.


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## fairfax1 (Jun 12, 2003)

Our hunting culture has changed and is changing. Big time. It ain't what it was. ----In my opinion, it is a lot better.----- But, hopefully, the DNR can make the necessary accomodations as it continues to change. 

I personally see nothing sacrosanct about November 15th. If...for deer biology or human social needs... it needs to be on, say the 12th as one poster said, well, shoot, it will cut into prime bowhunting....but so be it. If it is better for it to be on the 4th Friday in November.....well, so be it.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Fairfax, the opener will never be earliier, it'll be later. The biggest reason biologists suggest moving the opener to a later date is so that it isn't set at peak rut. Origionally, the Nov. 15 date was picked when our seasons were "buck only" and so that hunters would be out in the woods when all bucks were the most exposed. But the 1940's and 1950's were a completely different deer world. The purpose of such an early peak rut opener is to get the maximum buck harvest possible. Any buck, young ones especially. But the old days of a statewide policy of just shooting any small buck to maximize buck harvest is as outdated as a cigarette tv commercial, betamax tape or a car with no seatbelts. Most states have set their openers a bit later so that all bucks, especially young dumb ones, are not as exposed due to the rut. A later gun opener would account for a lower buck kill for the first few years followed by a kill of bucks that were larger and more mature on average. A later gun opener only helps our hunting, and greatly in my opinion, whether some can't see past an arbitrary date or not. In fact, our peak rut gun opener is possibly the biggest holdup and obsolete flawed rule Michigan has to joining all of our other mid-west states in buck quality.


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## Ack (Oct 3, 2004)

Well said Bob...I believe it should be moved to Dec. 1st every year.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Fairfax, the opener will never be earliier, it'll be later. The biggest reason biologists suggest moving the opener to a later date is so that it isn't set at peak rut. Origionally, the Nov. 15 date was picked when our seasons were "buck only" and so that hunters would be out in the woods when all bucks were the most exposed. But the 1940's and 1950's were a completely different deer world. The purpose of such an early peak rut opener is to get the maximum buck harvest possible. Any buck, young ones especially. But the old days of a statewide policy of just shooting any small buck to maximize buck harvest is as outdated as a cigarette tv commercial, betamax tape or a car with no seatbelts. Most states have set their openers a bit later so that all bucks, especially young dumb ones, are not as exposed due to the rut. A later gun opener would account for a lower buck kill for the first few years followed by a kill of bucks that were larger and more mature on average. A later gun opener only helps our hunting, and greatly in my opinion, whether some can't see past an arbitrary date or not. In fact, our peak rut gun opener is possibly the biggest holdup and obsolete flawed rule Michigan has to joining all of our other mid-west states in buck quality.


With all due respect, that's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. How do you suggest that the herd stays at the 1.8 mark if all these deer are getting killed due to the date it currently is? With your reasoning, the harvest would increase if set at a later date. To what do you attribute that data? And how are they gonna get bigger and more mature? You are contradicting yourself based on the rut timing. First some will say LESS deer will INCREASE size and antler growth. Yet a later opener will preserve MORE deer. As for other states rules, I'm not sure when the last time you were in PA but there are a lot of upset hunters there. The later date and the decreased herd has done nothing positive for the herd in the years it's been implemented. Don't go by so called "wildlife experts" opinions, go by the men and women that actually hunt there. If you take a look at Michigan, the largest deer are from the areas that have the HIGHEST density of deer. Attribute it to private lands, croplands, or whatever the biologists quote. But the fact remains, the date has done nothing to change that fact. And in the end, it still won't. 2/3 of the deer population is located below the shotgun line. Changing the date is not gonna move them deer north.


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## NicksKnack (Oct 21, 2004)

I would not mind seeing the whole state go to just shotgun (eliminate the rifle, at least in the LP). I know it won't happen, but would probably help the deer herd.


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## Tom (mich) (Jan 17, 2003)

I don't have a dog in this debate, but can you imagine the lobbying efforts that would occur on behalf of the "rut-related" product manufacturers (i.e. scents, calls, etc), if Michigan elected to move gun season to a date following the rut?


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## fulldraw (Nov 20, 2002)

Why change Nov. 15th it is a holiday in Michigan. It is like changing Christmas to another date just because it doesn't fall on a sat. or sun. I think the opening day should stay Nov. 15th it has been like that forever and it should stay that way. 

fulldraw


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I say move it to the Friday after Thanksgiving. Managing our deer herd and our season dates based soley on tradition is about the weakest and most selfish argument one can come up with really. Personnaly, I feel our firearms season is too long and starts to early. Give us 10 days. With the start on the Friday after Turkey day, a 10 day season gives everyone 2 full weekends. Ofcourse, our gun season is the DNR's big hammer for management, they want to gives us time to kill the number of deer they are hoping for each season so getting a shorter gun season at this point is unlikely.


I think this is the best compromise. If one can't plan vacation yearly around this fluctuating date, yet the same day, they probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. Many folks have the Friday off as a holiday...not everybody, but there is no such date, and never will. I think this will get more folks in the woods (sense of urgency for some) and the weather is typicaly more condusive for deer movement and feeding patterns. 

It's not perfect and it won't please everybody, but I think it's an ideal compromise fior quality hunting in this state.


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## Dawg (Jan 17, 2003)

Never would have guessed this would become another Quality re-thread 

Heaven forbid that (public land) hunters have a choice between joining the orange army for a week or taking the second week off. People b(*%$ about hunting recruitment. Make a 7 day season: put us all in for the same vacation time (good luck to the young), make 'em all sit in the same traffic jam by having a Sat opener, make 'em all sit on top of each other when they get there, drop the temperature another 10-20º, and make it interfere with even more holiday functions?

Sounds like a solution to me - for antler envy. That is THE societal change. :gaga:


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Dawg, our hunting quality and recruitment suffers due to this old regulation. People are flocking to other states with better, more modern regulations. In Michigan, tradition and not wanting to bend when needed seems to take us to a break, instead of bend. Numerous article have been writtten on the subject from the DNR biolgists from our neighboring states. One retired biologist from, I believe Missouri, said of our Nov.15 opener "god help the bucks of Michigan". 
Until the day that Michigan hunters are wiling to let go of the notion that somehow they are the #1 priority and that they have the god given right to a seeing 40 deer and kiling a buck on a day they desire, instead of being part of management team that involves the DNR and even the deer themselves, expect none of this to change much. 
Is deer season a holiday or is it a means to protect and manage our whitetail resources? Well which is it? If it's a holiday first, that's what it will remain. If it's a tool for better hunting, that's what it will be. It appears that many are only worried about themsleves in this debate. That fact is, hunters should have ZERO say in what the experts decide is best. I doubt you'll find one respected biologist who'll suggest a date like ours is as good or better a gun opener than one a bit later. 
And any discussion about adjusting any regulation is done so to produce better "quality" hunting. All Nov. 15 is is an old regulation. 
Take a look around, how many hunters do we lose again this year? My guess is it's bigger than last year. Maybe 5-7%? How about the next and the next? There's no bankrupcy court for us hunters to go to if we wait too long and hold onto old ways of doing things for too long. 
I'm done with this one as far a posting. But I think some hunters need to look in the mirror and understand that it's not about them anymore. Deer season is no longer a hunter-good time-centric, hunters vs. MDNR event. We're in this together. Hunters and MDNR need to stick together and figure out how we're going to manage this states herd with less hunters and less huntable land. And hunters not willing to bend on even the simplest notions that are deemed scientifically unsound by nearly everyone in the business gives some of us GM flashbbacks. Cutting off ones nose to spite the face is rarely becoming.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

The one compromise that might work would be a split opener with the SLP still opening on Nov. 15 for the short term and the Monday after Thanksgiving for the NLP and UP.


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## grandblanc (Sep 19, 2005)

farmlegend said:


> The 11/15 opener is a barrier to quality deer hunting. Waaay too early. I like what Ohio does, the Monday after Thanksgiving, a seven day gun season.
> 
> What we've got now is a joke; a 16 day firearms season beginning during peak breeding time, then one day off on December 1, followed immediately by 16 consecutive days of the Single Shot Rifle Hunt For Bucks (formerly known as the muzzleloader season) here in the southern lower.
> 
> Add it all up, we do all we can in this state to make it difficult for a yearling buck to survive.


Couldn't agree more!!! Michigan needs to rethink how they regulate. Look at all the states surrounding us!


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## grandblanc (Sep 19, 2005)

NicksKnack said:


> I would not mind seeing the whole state go to just shotgun (eliminate the rifle, at least in the LP). I know it won't happen, but would probably help the deer herd.


How would this would help?


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Dawg, our hunting quality and recruitment suffers due to this old regulation. People are flocking to other states with better, more modern regulations. In Michigan, tradition and not wanting to bend when needed seems to take us to a break, instead of bend. Numerous article have been writtten on the subject from the DNR biolgists from our neighboring states. One retired biologist from, I believe Missouri, said of our Nov.15 opener "god help the bucks of Michigan".
> Until the day that Michigan hunters are wiling to let go of the notion that somehow they are the #1 priority and that they have the god given right to a seeing 40 deer and kiling a buck on a day they desire, instead of being part of management team that involves the DNR and even the deer themselves, expect none of this to change much.
> Is deer season a holiday or is it a means to protect and manage our whitetail resources? Well which is it? If it's a holiday first, that's what it will remain. If it's a tool for better hunting, that's what it will be. It appears that many are only worried about themsleves in this debate. That fact is, hunters should have ZERO say in what the experts decide is best. I doubt you'll find one respected biologist who'll suggest a date like ours is as good or better a gun opener than one a bit later.
> And any discussion about adjusting any regulation is done so to produce better "quality" hunting. All Nov. 15 is is an old regulation.
> ...


  

Now we need to shelter kids and new hunters from fall/winter hunting weather? Give me a break, quit worrying so much about coddling our youth! Keep sheltering them from reality, that will teach to get along in life just fine! Why should we manage our deer herd and make regulations that make it easy for hunters? Especially, when it affects the the quality of the whole herd. (it ain't about antlers, it's about ensuring the future of this fine renewable resource) Tradition is fine for holidays, keep it away from our states deer management.


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## UP Ed (Jul 1, 2005)

Leave it be...its my birthday!!! 

-Ed


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## Bwana (Sep 28, 2004)

Why does it seem that it is mainly the Bow Hunters that want to change the time of the Firearm Opener and shorten the length of the Firearm Season? 

Personally, I could care less if the Firearms Opener was moved to December One every year as I enjoy the late season hunts. But I will not agree to this unless an amendment is attached to this measure that prohibits Bow Hunters from harvesting Bucks during the month of November; November should be Doe Only!  Remember Bow Hunters, the goal is to save Bucks so you need to do your fair share as well!


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