# Ethical Question



## Chacho95 (Dec 1, 2016)

So, I've done a lot of reading on this forum and research on laws, and I'm pretty sure that I know the answer that I'm going to receive here. However, (although I don't want to pretend that I'm special) I do think my situation is a little different. 

Next to my house there is a 30 acre parcel of land, that as a kid I used to run around on and explore. I have never in my life seen anybody on the land; it does not have an address, it is undeveloped and untouched. On one side of it along a main dirt road, there are a few incredibly old no trespassing signs, but on the side of the property on my dirt road there aren't any. 

I know that it has been for sale in the past, but it's not on the market now. 

I went to the township offices and got the name and address of the person who owns it, and they live across the country from me. I sent her a letter asking for permission to bow hunt on it and didn't hear back from her, so I tried contacting her through social media and still no response. 

My dilemma is that I know that legally I could bow hunt on the land because it isn't properly posted. However, I would very much like to have permission before doing so. I feel like I've tried to get permission but haven't had luck getting in touch and that makes me think it might be ok to just go ahead and hunt. However, I don't know if I'd have a clear conscience doing so. 

It seems like there are a lot of ethically sound people on this forum; if I could get your opinions and advice that would be great. 

Thanks


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## buggs (Jan 21, 2011)

Tough call.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

I would be tempted to try a certified letter.
The owner may or may not be making ,or interested in such matters.
Too, I would want to relieve concerns of liability in my letter requesting permission by stating the law protecting landowners who allow hunting.

Respecting the property matters to the owner. Knowing you are ethical ,don' t litter or violate the assets of the property must matter.

Not knowing the owners view about hunting makes pursuing permission harder than most possible issues.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Offer money to hunt it.


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## smith34 (Feb 2, 2009)

A knock on the door and a face to face conversation goes a long ways. Posted or not, it is still tresspassing, it is just harder to prosecute when not posted is all.


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## 12Point (Mar 18, 2008)

You can't legally bowhunt on someone's property just because it isn't posted.


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## jjlrrw (May 1, 2006)

I don't think property in Michigan needs to be posted, my understanding is you need to know where you are so I don't think it is legal to just hunt there without permission. 

Your said across the country like in California? or did you mean across the county like 20 miles or so? If across the county I would make the drive and talk to them, sending a letter or contact through social media I would not give permission that way. Let them know you would keep an eye on the property and take care of any trash that could be dumped etc.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

If it is not posted, you can probably win in court. Still does not saying "no" mean "yes"? 
<----<<<


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Chacho, you are wrong on about 99% of what you posted.

Call the landowner, ask permission. If they say No, then it's No.
Don't be a trespassing douche bucket.


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## thill (Aug 23, 2006)

hunting someone else's property without permission = trespassing. I don't see any grey areas here, it's pretty clear.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

thill said:


> hunting someone else's property without permission = trespassing. I don't see any grey areas here, it's pretty clear.


DNR won't even come out if the property is not properly posted. Happened to a guy I know this year. He came home and there was a a guy hunting on his property. He texted the vehicles license plate to a DNR officer, but the officer told him there was nothing he could do if the property is not properly posted.


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## Chacho95 (Dec 1, 2016)

Well thanks for the serious responses from the people who actually read my whole post without being critical. 

In regards to being a douche bucket (interesting choice in misogynistic jargon), I tried to call her but the number listed for her online is out of service. Also, she lives in Florida so a knock on the door is not an option. 

My understanding with recreational tresspass is that what I would be doing would not technically be illegal, based on what I've read about this law:

324.73102 Entering or remaining on property of another; consent; exceptions.
Sec. 73102.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person shall not enter or remain upon the property of another person, other than farm property or a wooded area connected to farm property, to engage in any recreational activity or trapping on that property without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent, if either of the following circumstances exists:

(a) The property is fenced or enclosed and is maintained in such a manner as to exclude intruders.

(b) The property is posted in a conspicuous manner against entry. The minimum letter height on the posting signs shall be 1 inch. Each posting sign shall be not less than 50 square inches, and the signs shall be spaced to enable a person to observe not less than 1 sign at any point of entry upon the property.


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## thill (Aug 23, 2006)

MossyHorns said:


> DNR won't even come out if the property is not properly posted. Happened to a guy I know this year. He came home and there was a a guy hunting on his property. He texted the vehicles license plate to a DNR officer, but the officer told him there was nothing he could do if the property is not properly posted.


The OP admitted the property is posted. Even though the signs are old, he still know the intent behind the signs. Willful ignorance is not a defense.


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## cdacker (Jan 10, 2011)

Chacho95 said:


> Well thanks for the serious responses from the people who actually read my whole post without being critical.
> 
> In regards to being a douche bucket (interesting choice in misogynistic jargon), I tried to call her but the number listed for her online is out of service. Also, she lives in Florida so a knock on the door is not an option.
> 
> ...


The subject of the post is "ethical question". 1 - You know it's private. 2- You don't have permission. How could there even be any question about the ethics involved in knowingly trespassing?


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## JimP (Feb 8, 2002)

There are several free sites for research of names, addresses and phones.
I personally use http://www.zabasearch.com/ quite a lot when trying to find new addresses of lot owners at our Association when newsletters/dues bills are returned...many times they don't even notify the Tax rolls.
Zaba will show possible current and previous addresses, relatives, ages, previous cities or states of residence...
You needn't pay for information if you run the names and RELATIVES in a circle.
A simple call to possible relatives like, "are you related to so and so?" 
"I'm trying to get in touch with her/him"..."for permission to use"...etc.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

thill said:


> The OP admitted the property is posted. Even though the signs are old, he still know the intent behind the signs. Willful ignorance is not a defense.


Read his post again! He said that there were no signs along the dirt road, which makes it not properly posted.


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## smith34 (Feb 2, 2009)

MossyHorns said:


> Read his post again! He said that there were no signs along the dirt road, which makes it not properly posted.


Yes, he did say one side was posted, another side not.
Ethically, this is no different than you walking over to your neighbors while they are gone, hopping in their car, going to town for an errand, and bringing it back. Even if you filled it up with gas and washed it, you did not get their permission to use their property (car), and is ethically wrong. 
Even if you found some loophole in the law, or know they wont prosecute you for tresspassing, it is not relevant, because you asked about the ethics of your action, bottom line, it is not ethical without owner permission.


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## pryorhunt (May 13, 2014)

smith34 said:


> A knock on the door and a face to face conversation goes a long ways. Posted or not, it is still tresspassing, it is just harder to prosecute when not posted is all.


Kinda hard when she lives across the country!


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## smith34 (Feb 2, 2009)

pryorhunt said:


> Kinda hard when she lives across the country!


Ya, caught that now, I thought he intended to say county. Spelling isnt always a strong suit on forums.


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## pryorhunt (May 13, 2014)

If I were you I would find her, and make an offer on the property. If she is up in age and living in Florida she probably doesn't care too much about the property any more and she may accept a reasonable offer. If so, you could hunt til your hearts content!


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