# All wood foundations?



## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

What do you builders know about them? Not what you think but what you know.
I haven't done much research yet, but I am intrigued. I understand the systems have hugely improved. Anyone have first hand experience?


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

I looked into them before we built our home because one of the builders we were looking at was very high on them. If I remember correctly it's all treated lumber 2x8 studs and they vaporlock the exterior to keep moisture out, and then sandwich that all with insulation. Some of the pros were easier to finish your basement, better climate control (the vaporlocked lumber controls climate better than porous concrete)...

Understandably we had reservations about putting wood below grade and wanted more info... It led me to look into all sorts of energy/alternative foundations: Wood Stud, Insulating Concrete Forms (ICF), and the poured panels with beams that were sandwiched between layers of insulation (can't remember what the heck it was called though. 

From everything I read and people I talked to about Wood Stud foundation there was one BIG caveat... and that was *IF* the foundation was prepped and installed properly. Otherwise a lot of people had nothing but good things to say about them. 

My uncle, who was a builder in the Detroit-metro area for many years, put a wood stud foundation in their large 2-story home back in the 70's. Both him and my aunt claimed it was the best thing they ever did, and to this day said they never had any issues with it.

My wife's uncle said he actually seen wood stud foundations on Harsens Island that had been holding up better than poured!! Told me not to be afraid...

Ultimately we went with a poured concrete because we felt that if we ever sold our home we didn't want it to be a sticking point for a new owner who didn't understand all the pros and cons of one. 

Not exactly what you were looking for...


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

When I looked at an all-wood SYSTEM a few years ago (late 90's), including time to complete, all in, I was just shuffling paper. So, then you are left with a foundation that, as has been said, people might balk about. 

But, back then, treated lumber was CCA impregnated. Not today.
There was way more focus on drainage, sealant, membrane integrity, pea stone, and basement subfloor drainage. Essentially, if the builder makes a perfectly draining system on your site, you are GTG. To include downspouts, gutters, and finish grade.

They were pitching them in sandy areas because the level of skill to use one was already on site, whereas concrete foundation work is always cash flow out from the builder. 

That's the money side.

On the future sale side, the banks were skittish, Requiring engineer's letter for drainage and suitability.

Remember, once it's drywalled, who knows what's holding up the house. Hint. Hint.

I have seen many block walls fail, and their repairs fail, but truthfully, I've never seen a wood foundation fail. At least, not that I was aware of.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

The resale is what is kinda what is holding me back. My site is all sand and drainage wont be a problem. I will have to look further into it. I had a lengthy discussion with my building inspector and he was the one who mentioned I should investigate it more. He had nothing but good things to say about the system.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

They were more or less a foreign concept for my area of the state... we didn't want to be the oddball on the road with that 'weird foundation' lol...

But in the thumb I know they are more popular. If it's something that's a known quantity in your area that wont hurt or hinder resale it might be worth looking into.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

brushbuster said:


> The resale is what is kinda what is holding me back. My site is all sand and drainage wont be a problem. I will have to look further into it. I had a lengthy discussion with my building inspector and he was the one who mentioned I should investigate it more. He had nothing but good things to say about the system.


Perception sells houses. It's not what you think it's what the potential buyer thinks. You maybe limiting the perspective buyers list. Many buyers will not take the time to research the subject even if the option is a great alternative. They'll buy what the know.

As for the rest of your question I have no first hand knowledge on treated wood foundations. Good luck.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

My friend did a ICF and if I were building, that's what I'd do, especially in sand.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

My sister built a house half into a woods covered sand dune near Kaleva, MI.
We put the required drainage and sump pump etc. around the walk out basement.
Coated the basement walls, 18" pea stone over the drains, yadda yaddda.

The sump pump has never had a drop of water in it, ever. Just cobwebs.
You could hollar into the tile at one end, and hear it come out the other.

But, building codes are building codes. Best to follow them.

If I were thinking of saving 2K on a foundation, and losing 5k at sale 10 years later, I'd skip it.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

I am not required to have a sump in my county, gravity works fine for us.


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## brewster (May 30, 2010)

We put an AWWF under our house in 1999 when I built. I taught building trades for 34 years as well as ran my own company and have worked for others, so I did most of the construction myself.

We live in a clay soil area and the sump drains to daylight and has a pump, just in case.

I have had zero problems with this foundation (knock on wood).


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## SWMbruiser (Jan 25, 2012)

I would agree, definitely gonna hurt you in resale. Just bought a home last year and toured one with a wood foundation. I knew nothing about it. But instantly thought wood? Seriously? It's gonna rot. Scared us away for sure (amongst other issues). Realtor couldn't give much insight. Asked around to several other friends and family members and all said "sounds crazy". So the perception is there, perhaps wrongfully.


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## MSUFW07 (Jan 22, 2009)

Our house has a permanent wood foundation. When we bought the house it was a foreclosure so we had no info on the structure before we bought. My FIL who is a builder was encouraged by it, and after talking to the neighbors the previous owner was the builder of the house and owned a building company so I hope that he wouldn't build a house that was going to fall apart around his family. We have never had any issues with water getting in around the foundation. The one issue I have had that as we were finishing part of the basement, basically trimming windows etc, I had to put in extra wide wood for the window dressing and that's just because the walls are 2x8 instead of 2x4. Other then that we have not had any issues with ours.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

MSUFW07 said:


> Our house has a permanent wood foundation. My FIL who is a builder was encouraged by it, and after talking to the neighbors the previous owner was the builder of the house and owned a building company so I hope that he wouldn't build a house that was going to fall apart around his family. Other then that we have not had any issues with ours.


I apologize in advance for trimming the quoted passage. 

I want to point out how what are seen as POSITIVES to one side can be seen as NEGATIVES by the other side.

Defunct builder, foreclosed on, built himself, 

These are commonly the ingredients of a wood foundation build.

Primarily, because it's cheap. As far as materials go. You can buy or "liberate", treated 2x8's one at a time if you want. Not uncommon to reuse form wood for this kind of hidden stuff.
1) Skills on site. No cash outlay to foundation company.
2) Built as cheaply as possible by a contractor that doesn't pay himself.
3) Contractor went bust.
4) Contractor foreclosed on.

These are the ingredients of a GOOD DEAL in the secondary market.

They are also the elements of risk in the supporting structure.
When someone is buying new at $150.00/sq ft, they want assurances.

When I'm buying used at $70.00/sqft (or less) I don't.
I've got enough upside to address issues. And the skills and resources to resolve them.

*If the OP is looking at a pre-built home, check to see if the prints were stamped and submitted when the permit was pulled. I'd want stamped drawings, and the inspectors check-off if available.*


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> My friend did a ICF and if I were building, that's what I'd do, especially in sand.


Someone on a different forum shared their home build blog (in Michigan) and they used ICF's for their foundation.

This guys blog is impressive: http://lakefort.blogspot.com/2014/10/basement-walls-at-full-height-and-poured.html

... but their build is going on 4 years! 

Ah the other alternative type I mentioned was 'Superior Wall', but I couldn't find any good reviews when I looked into it. And the nearest ICF contractor was somewhere mid-Michigan, so it was a no go to have a contractor 2+ hours from us.

Re: Wood foundation price... I want to say gamekeeper is correct in that a wood foundation was cheaper than a poured one. When I got quotes the one builder made sure to give me one with figures for a wood foundation.

I will say though whatever foundation type you choose (permanent wood, poured, something else) make sure you backfill with sand! My builder was telling me stories about guys backfilling with clay from their excavation and having their poured foundations crack to peices within a year or two. Of course wood is supposed to be more forgiving with lateral loads because it can flex (unlike concrete) but still... why go through all the trouble of putting in a foundation if you're going to compromise it from the get go?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

d_rek said:


> Someone on a different forum shared their home build blog (in Michigan) and they used ICF's for their foundation.
> 
> This guys blog is impressive: http://lakefort.blogspot.com/2014/10/basement-walls-at-full-height-and-poured.html
> 
> ...


My friend did his himself. Even went and picked up all the materials.


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## grapestomper (Jan 9, 2012)

I would use the Styrofoam forms before wood. There are several types available. Most basement guys sell them. They are easy to put up. You brace the corners and frame the openings. Straighten the walls when poured and good to go.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Other than stacking them yourself (for a DIY'er) what additional benefit do the foam units have for the homeowner?
The difference in cost? My analysis showed them to be more expensive per linear foot than a finished (foamed, and sealed) foundation contractor. And I would have to pay for the additional labor to assemble them.

When interest rates were high (10%), saving a couple weeks on the schedule meant real money at jobs end. There was a tiny incentive (additional cost- time cost of money) to use the insulated panels (SIP's)

I don't see any of that now.


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## grapestomper (Jan 9, 2012)

I don't see any either. For a do it yourself guy they are easiest to do. Other than that little advantage.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

The idea is energy savings over the long term vs up front cost.They (allegedly) provide better insulation, therefore better climate control in your basement. Of course some people (like myself) don't want to climate control the air mass in their basement. I just want it cooler than the upstairs in the summer and don't care how cold it gets in the winter because it's not finished, though if your goal is a finished basement with a comfortable climate you may want to consider an 'alternative' foundation.

In terms of practical application... i don't know how much more R-value the 2nd layer of insulation provides for your foundation, though I do know that any insulation is better than none but there is a point when insulation starts to offer somewhat diminishing returns.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

I know the wood used in such a foundation is treated but I'd still be nervous every time I saw a carpenter ant crawling around.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

The best heat, most even, with fewer swings in temp was an old oil boiler and stand alone radiators. It was a REALLY old house, little insulation, the windows leaked and it was very comfortable. The radiators are nice to sit on when you come in from the cold too.

I wish I had in floor heating, dual zone, two units one for the basement, one for the main floor. Then proper A/C vents, in the ceilings. Again two separate units. Maybe even have multi-temp capability in the upstairs so I could keep my bedroom around 55 or 60 for sleeping but the living area warmer. I am speaking of winter. I do find it very difficult to sleep if the bedroom is warmer than 60 or 65.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

DecoySlayer said:


> The best heat, most even, with fewer swings in temp was an old oil boiler and stand alone radiators. It was a REALLY old house, little insulation, the windows leaked and it was very comfortable. The radiators are nice to sit on when you come in from the cold too.
> 
> I wish I had in floor heating, dual zone, two units one for the basement, one for the main floor. Then proper A/C vents, in the ceilings. Again two separate units. Maybe even have multi-temp capability in the upstairs so I could keep my bedroom around 55 or 60 for sleeping but the living area warmer. I am speaking of winter. I do find it very difficult to sleep if the bedroom is warmer than 60 or 65.


You can have whatever you can afford.
Nowadays the small A/C units can dump cold air into any room of the house with a 3" duct.

Every person should set their home up the way they like it.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Gamekeeper said:


> You can have whatever you can afford.
> Nowadays the small A/C units can dump cold air into any room of the house with a 3" duct.
> 
> Every person should set their home up the way they like it.


I know that, I was just dreaming. I can't even afford to pay attention right now, let alone build a "dream home". I'll build it right after I hit the lottery. Now, if only someone would buy me a winning ticket!


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

My last house was baseboard heat. My basement was fully insulated and heated on days that weren't extremely cold I could shut my upstairs zones off and just run the basement zone and stay quite comfortable on the upper levels. I am very reluctant to use anything but hot water heat.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

brushbuster said:


> Great post wild thing. The thought of a dry non humid basement is appealing. My basement will be a walkout and not having concrete to wick moisture from the ground and the air is the one thing that has intrigued me as well a I can do it my self and the insulation and wiring is a cinch without any furring and then theres the vapor lock with furring and insulating over concrete. Was there much of a cost difference between your wood system and block or poured walls?


Truthfully brushbuster, I didn't even price concrete on this place as I knew that I wanted the wood basement from the get go so we just planned it from the start.



brushbuster said:


> Looks like you went with 8 inch logs, that's another one of my concerns, will the basement support my big logs, most of the courses will be 8 inch but the first 4 courses are going to be 10 inch logs mostly 16 foot long. Not light to say the least.


Yes - we went with the 8 inch "D" logs. They are tongue and groove on top and bottom and the flat wall on the inside made it easy to frame the windows and finish it off. I'm not as talented as you are I'm sure so I went the easy route. I actually envy guys like you that build those beautiful big log homes - just love em. I can't imagine that your 10 inch logs would be any problem at all sitting on the 8" walls...but I'm not an expert on the subject either.



brushbuster said:


> Wildthing, did you do blown in or batts for your insulation? What was the span for your drop in floor trusses?


I did the batts. Can't remember the R factor but it was pretty stout with 8" of fiberglas. The cabin is 32' X 24' so the floor trusses spanned 24' as did the scissors trusses for the cathedral ceiling.



brushbuster said:


> Also, did you put in floor heat in? I have been thinking strongly about doing this in my basement I think I could most likely heat the main floor from the basement.


I did not go with in-floor heat ... but I wish I had. A buddy of mine did it in his pole building and it is unbelievable how nice it is. We know others who have gone that route also. If I ever build again I will be doing it and would strongly recommend that you do too.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> My last house was baseboard heat. My basement was fully insulated and heated on days that weren't extremely cold I could shut my upstairs zones off and just run the basement zone and stay quite comfortable on the upper levels. I am very reluctant to use anything but hot water heat.


Hot water heat is great for allergy sufferers too. I was skeptical our geo would be kind to my sinuses but it's been awesome so far. Probably helps that we don't have carpet on the main floor to trap particulates. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Did yo


wildthing said:


> Truthfully brushbuster, I didn't even price concrete on this place as I knew that I wanted the wood basement from the get go so we just planned it from the start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Was there a reason you poured footings instead of peastone filled footings? I was reading over the building procedure and they mentioned building the walls on top of pea stone footers. That seems wrong to me but its part of the system that I was reading in the brochure.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

brushbuster said:


> Did yo
> 
> Was there a reason you poured footings instead of peastone filled footings? I was reading over the building procedure and they mentioned building the walls on top of pea stone footers. That seems wrong to me but its part of the system that I was reading in the brochure.


Building code in Dickinson County. The building inspector told me we could not begin building the basement walls until he had inspected the footings. I called him after we poured the concrete and he told me he wasn't going to be able to make it out there so I was to take lots of pictures. He never inspected the photos either but it is what it is - can't fight city hall.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

brushbuster said:


> Did yo
> 
> Was there a reason you poured footings instead of peastone filled footings? I was reading over the building procedure and they mentioned building the walls on top of pea stone footers. That seems wrong to me but its part of the system that I was reading in the brochure.


I didn't build them, but back in the mid/late 90's, me and a buddy took care of the Stonecliffe property on Mackinac island, those big 3 story condo buildings there sit on 2x8 wood foundations on a 2x10 plate on peastone. They were about 15yrs old then and looked new. Lots of wood foundations out there.

I remember hearing of a builder in this area doing them, not sure but I think it was Hall constuction in Higgins lake.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

After doing some research I found not many places carry the product, at least in my area. I did find a place in st Helens though that is giving me a price for three walls, as the other wall is the walkout wall and will be above grade. I think I am leaning towards this type of foundation. looks easy enough for me to do and I have heard good reports. Resale is a concern but I do intend on this house being my last one. I do like the fact that it provides a warm dry room, most likely I will insulate with spray foam.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> After doing some research I found not many places carry the product, at least in my area. I did find a place in st Helens though that is giving me a price for three walls, as the other wall is the walkout wall and will be above grade. I think I am leaning towards this type of foundation. looks easy enough for me to do and I have heard good reports. Resale is a concern but I do intend on this house being my last one. I do like the fact that it provides a warm dry room, most likely I will insulate with spray foam.


The builder who I met with who did them was out of Almont, but that's probably not close enough for you.


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