# Lets see who can get the first river run salmon



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Multispeciestamer said:


> I take it you dont agree thats fine. I dont fully agree with T.C. statement. Like was said fish are a basic animal, they dont know anything about a weir. I dont know enough about wild Springer populations. I did see a book about salmon ecology I would like to have.


 
If you understood the Chinook's migration timing out west, you would understand why we get earlier and earlier fish. There has most likely always been early fish and now they have been reproducing together for 40 years and hence getting their own strain.

The river's temps allow the summer runs, this is why you don't see it as much on the Betsie, water temps will not let the fish in to survive in the summer.


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## tcmsu (Feb 20, 2002)

There are currently 4 "runs" of Chinook Salmon in the Sacramento River out west - Fall, Late Fall, Winter, and Spring-run fish. As with any migratory/spawning population the run is going to resemble a bell shaped curve, some will be there early, it will build to the major push, and will finish with a later group. 

This is an evolutionary adaptation that avoids putting all your eggs in one basket. In the case of the Sacramento River runs those groups of fish have actually spread out enough over time that they are considered genetically distict populations and now each run has its own migration timing and within them its own group of early, averge, and late fish. 

As for our "early" fish that show up in certain tribs, they might be a different run of fish that are decendents of the original west coast stocks that were planted back in the day. I'll have to dig for it, but there was a case I believe in New Zealand where the Maori Tribes imported what they thought were only fall-run Chinooks from the state of Washington and within 10-20 years they had 3-4 different runs of fish.

tc


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## Flyfisher (Oct 1, 2002)

I agree with the assessment that the early fish have evolved into a distinct strain that ascends the river early. As mentioned, the river in question has an advantage over most other Lake Michigan tributaries in that it flows relatively cool over the summer months. I have seen "early" kings in other rivers but it is doubtful they would ever survive long enough (in numbers) to naturally reproduce and pass along their genetic timing. Because the weir stops the passage of later running fish, the early fish spawn with other early fish. Its a case of evolution by manmade causes.

Regarding the comment made about skamania being "bred to run early by Indiana", that is a patently false statement. The strain was brought here from Washington state, with origins from the Washougal River. It was known to ascend rivers there early as well as provide a nearshore fishery due to its lack of wanderlust. We can thank natural genetics for the fact that skamania strain (summer) steelhead ascend the rivers well in advance of their spawning period.


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## lostontheice (Feb 18, 2011)

been reading this thread since it started..no one has mentioned that it takes 4 years for a fish to return to the river(salmon)..so think back..what was the weather like 4 years ago..if it was cold early,and the river temps.were down early..you will have a good run of returning fish early..if 4 years ago..(like last year) the rivers were warmer longer..you wont have a good returning run..the more fish that run early due to weather and river temps..the more will make it up past the weir..now,this isnt always true(due to mother nature having a very sick sence of humor)..but has looked to be the norm..jko


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## Flyfisher (Oct 1, 2002)

lostontheice said:


> been reading this thread since it started..no one has mentioned that it takes 4 years for a fish to return to the river(salmon)..so think back..what was the weather like 4 years ago..if it was cold early,and the river temps.were down early..you will have a good run of returning fish early..if 4 years ago..(like last year) the rivers were warmer longer..you wont have a good returning run..the more fish that run early due to weather and river temps..the more will make it up past the weir..now,this isnt always true(due to mother nature having a very sick sence of humor)..but has looked to be the norm..jko


Except chinook salmon can be sexually mature in as early as 2-3 years. Fish species often sexually mature at various ages, which helps to ensure their continual existence in the event of a single year with poor environment conditions.


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## lostontheice (Feb 18, 2011)

Flyfisher said:


> Except chinook salmon can be sexually mature in as early as 2-3 years. Fish species often sexually mature at various ages, which helps to ensure their continual existence in the event of a single year with poor environment conditions.



well that would fall in the idea of "mother nature and her sick sence of humor"..most mature salmon are 4 year olds..ive seen a few chrome that was smaller in size,i would say 3 year olds,or possible 4 but stunted in growth..with the number of fish making it up the river this year..i would say the run in 3-4 years will be the same as this year..(alot better than last year,no fish in the river the first of aug.)


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

> been reading this thread since it started..no one has mentioned that it takes 4 years for a fish to return to the river(salmon)..so think back..what was the weather like 4 years ago..if it was cold early,and the river temps.were down early..you will have a good run of returning fish early..if 4 years ago..(like last year) the rivers were warmer longer..you wont have a good returning run..the more fish that run early due to weather and river temps..the more will make it up past the weir..now,this isnt always true(due to mother nature having a very sick sence of humor)..but has looked to be the norm..jko



Salmon runs are based on the weather and conditions more than anything else. How the year starts, right on to when they run, all affects the overall timing and strength of the run. River and lake conditions also play a big role in it. Everything happens for a reason, and plays a part in how the run pans out.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I used to fish the NELP in the 1980's when there was alot of salmon in L Huron. I could go to one spot and catch them all summer long casting cleos from shore standing in waders. You could bank on finding salmon 25 to 50 miles upriver on a couple of rivers by August 1. Back then I didn't need to have a boat because when the fall to spring steelhead run got over then I switched to salmon.


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

lostontheice said:


> .....most mature salmon are 4 year olds....


 That used to be the case, but over the last 10 yrs or so, more and more of the mature fish that most people assume are 4 yr olds are actually 3 yr olds, based on DNR data anyways.


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## lostontheice (Feb 18, 2011)

wartfroggy said:


> That used to be the case, but over the last 10 yrs or so, more and more of the mature fish that most people assume are 4 yr olds are actually 3 yr olds, based on DNR data anyways.


wow..so...if the fish ive seen are 3(30+ pounders)..good lord i need better and heavier line for the 4 year olds..wonder if the CO will look at me if i show up with the 180lb braid and the catfish rod??:lol:


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

lostontheice said:


> wow..so...if the fish ive seen are 3(30+ pounders)..good lord i need better and heavier line for the 4 year olds..wonder if the CO will look at me if i show up with the 180lb braid and the catfish rod??:lol:


I said the majority of fish over the last 10 yrs are 3 yrs old. Are the majority of the fish you have seen the last 10 years 30 pounds? What is your point?


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## Flyfisher (Oct 1, 2002)

lostontheice said:


> wow..so...if the fish ive seen are 3(30+ pounders)..good lord i need better and heavier line for the 4 year olds..wonder if the CO will look at me if i show up with the 180lb braid and the catfish rod??:lol:


I'd be very interested to see any of your "30+ pounders" from the last three or four years.


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

lostontheice said:


> wow..so...if the fish ive seen are 3(30+ pounders)..good lord i need better and heavier line for the 4 year olds..wonder if the CO will look at me if i show up with the 180lb braid and the catfish rod??:lol:


 I'll look around and see if I can find a more recent report, but even in this 2003 report, which only had data from 1985-1996, the majority of mature fish harvested were 3 yr old. 

"Age structure in the fishery and in the weir harvest shifted towards younger ages and reflected a shift in the population age structure. These declines were caused primarily by an increase in time-varying natural​mortality for ages 2-5."
 
In 1996, of their mature harvested fish, 24% were 2yo, 68% were 3 yo, and 6% were 4yo. For the same year, for the weir harvested fish, 45% were 2yo, 35% were 3yo, and 1% were 4yo. 

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...DSfrXS&sig=AHIEtbSEy8enA7O3_VplerBKsaxX5Jkijg

*2066*Benjamin, D. M., and J. R. Bence. 2003. *Statistical catch-at-age framework for chinook salmon in Lake Michigan, 1985-1996.*


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## lostontheice (Feb 18, 2011)

In 1996, of their mature harvested fish, 24% were 2yo, 68% were 3 yo, and 6% were 4yo. For the same year, for the weir harvested fish, 45% were 2yo, 35% were 3yo, and 1% were 4yo.

from what ive seen this year..the % of larger fish over the smaller have been flipped from the info.here..ive seen alot more fish that would be in the 4yr(going by size) then smaller(again by size)..

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostontheice View Post
wow..so...if the fish ive seen are 3(30+ pounders)..good lord i need better and heavier line for the 4 year olds..wonder if the CO will look at me if i show up with the 180lb braid and the catfish rod??
I'd be very interested to see any of your "30+ pounders" from the last three or four years.

one..read again..it says ive seen..and if you have read any of my posts in this forum..ive yet to land any this year...two..been fishing salmon the last 4years..not 10(previous 9 years,i was to busy driving truck to make sure your family has the **** they want)..if you read any of the post in this forum..you will see..everyone has noticed the fish are a hell of alot bigger than normal..so if they are in the age range stated..then..the salmon that are 4years or older,are going to be alot bigger than 30+..thats why i put in the joke about the 180lb braid and catfish rod..and wart..thanks for posting the findings from '85-96..would love to see the last 3 year reports..as this has alot to do with the amount of bait fish in the area..thanks again..


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

The fish have been mainly 3yo spawners for awhile now. While 4yo's are around and exist, it's in much smaller numbers. This year, there's more bait then there has been in atleast 6-7 years on Lake Mich, so the kings are showing it. Most of the 15-18lbers this year are 3yo fish, with 25lb+ being probable 4yo's. Chinook salmon size is directly associated with bait abundance; plentiful bait=big kings, low bait=small to average kings.


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

lostontheice said:


> from what ive seen this year..the % of larger fish over the smaller have been flipped from the info.here..ive seen alot more fish that would be in the 4yr(going by size) then smaller(again by size)...


That is the point...you can't go by size. Size means nothing (or very little) to age. Maturity means nothing (or very little) to age. Two fish, the same age, can be very different in size, based upon available food. Also between the sexes you will see size differences at age, and especially differences in maturity. You can't say "oh that fish is bigger, it must be older". Read the paper, it might make more sense.


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## lostontheice (Feb 18, 2011)

i guess that would make sence with the boat boys talking about instead of bait balls on graph..they are finding large zones of bait fish..i guess its best for me to just say..sorry..didnt think of the amount of food in my guess of age of the fish..thanks for letting me know..but still wonder if i would look odd running 100lb line and a 6ft broom stick pole..or has that already been done??


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## FishMichv2 (Oct 18, 2004)

lostontheice said:


> i guess that would make sence with the boat boys talking about instead of bait balls on graph..they are finding large zones of bait fish..i guess its best for me to just say..sorry..didnt think of the amount of food in my guess of age of the fish..thanks for letting me know..but still wonder if i would look odd running 100lb line and a 6ft broom stick pole..or has that already been done??


pretty common on a few rivers.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

FishMichv2 said:


> pretty common on a few rivers.


i'll second that.


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

lostontheice said:


> i guess that would make sence with the boat boys talking about instead of bait balls on graph..they are finding large zones of bait fish..i guess its best for me to just say..sorry..didnt think of the amount of food in my guess of age of the fish..thanks for letting me know..but still wonder if i would look odd running 100lb line and a 6ft broom stick pole..or has that already been done??


 The rod (broomstick) has to be white. 
And your 100# line has to be Blue. 
I would recommend a Ryobi reel. 
Then you won't look too out of place.


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## samsteel (Oct 6, 2008)

"on a tab brah"


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

First Video.......2 questions............

Who let the Umpa Lumpa's out of the Chocolate Factory?

Was the guy with the net trying to catch butterflies? He sure seemed to be swinging it around alot!

2nd Video........What a friggen ra-tard......"on a tab, brutha...." 
So what? Is it harder to snag a fish with a beer tab on your line?


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

Wow.....
5 pages of comments on the "beer tab ra-tard".......
Read through them, pretty impressive! 
Wonder how he feels about his video now?


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Priceless!

Last year the dnr endorsed turk ticklers this year they'll endorse the aluminum beer tab.
Its insane


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

"I'ma show you the 3-second rule"

I could show that gnome the same rule with eggs, and I bet my fish comes in MUCH quicker! Bunch of legends right there.


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

I ain't seen that many boots since I was in The Crazy Horse, brah. :evilsmile


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## wdf73 (Sep 14, 2009)

wintrrun said:


> Priceless!
> 
> Last year the dnr endorsed turk ticklers this year they'll endorse the aluminum beer tab.
> Its insane


I talked to a warden a couple of weeks ago, and she said they are very frustrated with the 'dnr approved turk's ticklers' sold at Andy's.
Unfortunately, they meet all the legal standards, so all they can do is to wait for Billy Bob and Bubba to keep a foul hooked fish.
Let's all give a big vote of thanks to Andy's for the great job they have done in getting more people interested in 'fishing'.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

wdf73 said:


> I talked to a warden a couple of weeks ago, and she said they are very frustrated with the 'dnr approved turk's ticklers' sold at Andy's.
> Unfortunately, they meet all the legal standards, so all they can do is to wait for Billy Bob and Bubba to keep a foul hooked fish.
> Let's all give a big vote of thanks to Andy's for the great job they have done in getting more people interested in 'fishing'.


 
They'll have more than that to worry about when these get unleashed on the river.
The new Manistee Mauler (unpainted)


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## wdf73 (Sep 14, 2009)

:lol::lol: Looks like these are made to snag CO's! Wondered when the ******** would come up with something like that!


wintrrun said:


> They'll have more than that to worry about when these get unleashed on the river.
> The new Manistee Mauler (unpainted)


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