# Anybody else target Long Tails?



## quackmaster (Sep 29, 2004)

TSS Caddis said:


> Not a knock on anyone but IMO its more with guides now servicing Lake Michigan and some on Lake Huron, you’re now educating people at a high rate that leave with the idea “we can do this ourselves now that we know where to go”. When coming back from their trips and their buddies ask where they went, since they have no skin in the game with years of scouting, exploring etc... they are quick to share.


 It’s a matter of time before the pressure get to the birds, they wise up, and then it’s on to the next game. For example layout pressure on the bay has gone up 10 fold over the past decade and quality of hunt has gone down at the same rate. Not to say there still aren’t some great days here and there but consistency is not there like it was once it started to get advertised and get banged up every day of the week...the ducks figured it out.....I’m sure longtails will go the same way with the number of guides advertising them now.


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

Until Michigan enforces the same rules as Ontario than all that will happen is the birds will just get pushed and pushed.... hunting and having good hunts on the shoreline in Canada is not and has not been a big issue....

I started to hunt ducks in the 70's from almost entirely fields... now everybody is field hunting...

chugging for walleyes was the norm... know it is vertical jigging....

change happens and we need to adapt...


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

quackmaster said:


> It’s a matter of time before the pressure get to the birds, they wise up, and then it’s on to the next game. For example layout pressure on the bay has gone up 10 fold over the past decade and quality of hunt has gone down at the same rate. Not to say there still aren’t some great days here and there but consistency is not there like it was once it started to get advertised and get banged up every day of the week...the ducks figured it out.....I’m sure longtails will go the same way with the number of guides advertising them now.


Unfortunately that layout pressure has been what pushed me off LSC. It has followed me to the big water. I am still amazed how from a Sunday to a Sunday the pressure goes from 6 boats to 50 boats. The big water at least gives me many miles to run away from that crowd. I started this post to possible show awareness of the supersized crowds that are now showing up. There are a few guys in here and that I have met that agree with me. Most of those guys only target these birds and have for many years. A picture of a 4 man limit of long tails is pretty common now. The drake numbers have taken a large hit. Personally there seems to be too many of these ducks and maybe this is the purge that is needed. Yes we saw the Dnr handing out tickets this weekend. It was a great thing to see. More revenue!!!


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## lastflight (Aug 16, 2005)

idylmoments said:


> It was a complete circus out there Sat and Sun. Interesting to watch and listen while we fished. I heard but haven't confirmed the DNR was out in the thick of it yesterday.


I can confirm that. We were checked mid-day on Sunday (another really positive interaction with our COs.)

The area I was in was a mad house. Guys were running in every direction for hours on end until the area was completely void of birds.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

lastflight said:


> I can confirm that. We were checked mid-day on Sunday (another really positive interaction with our COs.)
> 
> The area I was in was a mad house. Guys were running in every direction for hours on end until the area was completely void of birds.


We might have been in the same area. Lol.


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## Big Skip (Sep 1, 2010)

Sounds like fun. Glad I decided to sell the layout...don't miss it at all.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> Not a knock on anyone but IMO its more with guides now servicing Lake Michigan and some on Lake Huron, you’re now educating people at a high rate that leave with the idea “we can do this ourselves now that we know where to go”. When coming back from their trips and their buddies ask where they went, since they have no skin in the game with years of scouting, exploring etc... they are quick to share.


Well I can only say that I personally haven't shared a thing. But anyone who fishes the big water for walleyes, and that's a TON of people, see these stupid birds. They are thick. And many of those same fisherman are also duck hunters, at least part-time duck hunters, or their buddies are. So word spreads very quickly whether they are actually hunting them or not.

Personally I don't get the draw. Yeah, these are very cool looking birds. But as I said before, it's pretty anti-climactic when you can damn near catch these things in a fishing net when you're out there on the bay. I mean when it takes less than an hour most times for a multiple hunter limit, it soon loses the luster. At least for me it does. And they are not good table fare...at least IMO. But again, to each his or her own


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## birdistheword (Dec 3, 2016)

I personally don’t care for long tail motors, they are too loud


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

birdistheword said:


> I personally don’t care for long tail motors, they are too loud


LOL  OH YEAH....


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## Dahmer (Jan 22, 2007)

The guides have really increased the pressure on these birds. Everybody knows where they are hunting out of and soon as they start posting their pictures on social media the crowds start showing up. This weekend was the worst I have seen it. You got newbies out on the big water in bots that are overloaded and don’t know what they are doing. There was one capsized boat and another had there layout run over by another boat so far this season..


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## andyotto (Sep 11, 2003)

just ducky said:


> I'm just going to be VERY generic in how I respond, because as many have said, the pressure on these little bastards has increased 100X in the last decade. People are making a big thing about the mystery of these birds, and I'm here to tell you there ain't any mystery.
> 
> I've done it a few times, and what I'll say is they are by far the dumbest duck I have ever hunted. No fear whatsoever in them. So all you really need to do is have a big enough boat to fish the great lakes out a few miles, such as a 18'-20' good, solid deep V. You need to be out in 50'-60' of water minimum. And I'm going to GENERALLY single out Saginaw Bay simply because I'm out there a lot, and there are a ton of them out there....no particular port, but try anywhere from AuGres all the way down and around to Sebewaing. I hear Lake Michigan is just as thick...I just haven't hunted them out there. So then pick your days unless you have a much bigger boat. Lately there have been some pretty calm seas, so that smaller boat like my 18' Alaskan will work easily. Then what I suggest is go out perch fishing...seriously...and take your shotgun along. Enjoy your fishing, and when (and I do mean WHEN) the squaws come around, you drop them. Honest to god it's that simple. It's just having the gear (1-a big enough boat for the waters) to make it safe for you. Sure, you can use layouts and all the crap. But you don't even need a blind on your boat...any good fishing boat of adequate size/safety will work. Or if you really want to make more work out of it, while you fish you lay out a long line of blacks and whites, which will help attract them. But honest to god, it ain't necessary. Seriously guys...no one can say these birds are difficult. Heck we've been seeing and shooting some this fall right up close to shore along the phrag.


One way to draw them in is put out planer boards. They always buzz them. I always think they are going to hit the lines but they always seem to weave through them. I suppose you couldn't shoot them though with the motor running.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

andyotto said:


> One way to draw them in is put out planer boards. They always buzz them. I always think they are going to hit the lines but they always seem to weave through them. I suppose you couldn't shoot them though with the motor running.


That doesn’t seem stop them from shooting them on the run. Full plane 2 guns blazing off the front of the boat. Best part was it was 6 missed shots.


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## Jimw (Jul 8, 2009)

There where some guys that used to post on this forum with piles of longtails, I know that got a lot of guys excited about the idea of running way out there to shoot them up. Guys brag it up, and they reap what they sow, then bitch about it?


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

Squaw crips are hard to chase down. Sounds like COs are gunna clean house$$ on shooting while underway. Easy Pickens with a good spotting scope.


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## Jimbo 09 (Jan 28, 2013)

andyotto said:


> One way to draw them in is put out planer boards. They always buzz them. I always think they are going to hit the lines but they always seem to weave through them. I suppose you couldn't shoot them though with the motor running.


We were out trolling yesterday and I thought one was going to land in the back of the boat. It finally flared about 20-25 feet out. They would also just swim out of the way of the boards as we went by, not afraid of us at all.


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## Jerry Lamb (Aug 3, 2015)

Jimw said:


> There where some guys that used to post on this forum with piles of longtails, I know that got a lot of guys excited about the idea of running way out there to shoot them up. Guys brag it up, and they reap what they sow, then bitch about it?


Inevitably the Golden Goose is going to get killed. Those birds are going to get pushed further and further until they're either out of reach or go somewhere else. Or learn to fear boats. As far as LSC layout: before the days where there are 5-10 for sale on Craig's any given time, you either built your own or went to see John Kalash, who might build you a boat if he liked the cut of your jib. There were a handful doing it. Now all you need is a credit card. All the boats have pushed the Bluebills out to the middle. In the point system days dad would ring up 4-5 man limits of bills no problem.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

Did this one favor. Wtf? Gross and stuff.


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## grassmaster (Jan 10, 2009)

10,000 mile of great lakes shoreline, 2500 of which is Michigan's share and people are worried about a couple hundred boats scaring all the birds away!
they get beat up then don't see a soul for a week or more sometimes because guys can't get out.
probably the most rested bird out there , I think that's why there so curios
If you think shooting old squaws is challenging try shooting Puffins in the North Sea.
I've hunted them for years on a 27 ft pilot boat painted orange off the coast of Iceland.
You have to stay 300 meters from the rocks, no decoys, lead shot #2 and you don't need to get up early to save your spot!


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## Botiz (Oct 21, 2010)

I read stuff like this, at a time when hunter numbers are relatively very low, and I can only imagine what it would have been like if guys had had the internet 40 years ago.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

Botiz said:


> I read stuff like this, at a time when hunter numbers are relatively very low, and I can only imagine what it would have been like if guys had had the internet 40 years ago.


It’s not the quality of the hunt I worry about. It’s the unsafe practices that are taking place.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

They have been pounding old squaw, and other sea ducks, out of non-traditional "duck hunting" boats forever and a day along the east coast of the US and even in Chesapeake Bay, and year after year those old squaw, and other sea ducks, keep falling for the same things.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Jerry Lamb said:


> Inevitably the Golden Goose is going to get killed. Those birds are going to get pushed further and further until they're either out of reach or go somewhere else. Or learn to fear boats. As far as LSC layout: before the days where there are 5-10 for sale on Craig's any given time, you either built your own or went to see John Kalash, who might build you a boat if he liked the cut of your jib. There were a handful doing it. Now all you need is a credit card. All the boats have pushed the Bluebills out to the middle. In the point system days dad would ring up 4-5 man limits of bills no problem.



Except that there are far fewer layout boats around where we hunt then there were years ago, and yet, there are fewer ducks using, and staying, in the area. 

WHY?

Well, fewer, by far, as far as bluebills go. Have food sources changed? Far more late season perch fishing going on. 

I don't believe it is as simple as only pressure. We cannot kill 15 a day, every day, for the entire season, like we once could. Then we don't have the late "black and white", bluebill only season, like we once had. Now, with a 3 bird limit, and no special bluebill season, fewer layouts are driving them out? 

Have the migratory patterns shifted a bit to the west?

I know more birds are working areas, that are hunted hard, south of where we hunt, and they seem to be staying in those areas. Of course, those areas are not fished hard, even during the off season, and one is not likely to have a fishing/pleasure boat run through your decoy spread either.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

DecoySlayer said:


> Except that there are far fewer layout boats around where we hunt then there were years ago, and yet, there are fewer ducks using, and staying, in the area.
> 
> WHY?
> 
> ...


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

I KNOW that BB numbers are down, WAY down, from a time when they were WAY above long term average, but, if you listen to some it's a much smaller number of hunters that are causing the problem. 

I believe that it is a combination of many factors, with pressure not being the primary problem. 

Someday, likely after I am gone, BB's with make a major comeback, to the numbers we once saw, and redheads will drop like a rock again.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

andyotto said:


> ...I suppose you couldn't shoot them though with the motor running.


which is why I earlier suggested perch fishing, either anchored or drifting. Ask the guys who are using layouts...many are perch fishing out of the tender boat while waiting. Obviously you couldn't legally shoot them while trolling for walleye.


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## quackmaster (Sep 29, 2004)

DecoySlayer said:


> I KNOW that BB numbers are down, WAY down, from a time when they were WAY above long term average, but, if you listen to some it's a much smaller number of hunters that are causing the problem.
> 
> I believe that it is a combination of many factors, with pressure not being the primary problem.
> 
> Someday, likely after I am gone, BB's with make a major comeback, to the numbers we once saw, and redheads will drop like a rock again.


I would have to argue pressure not being a factor. When the birds are pushed daily off of historical feeding/resting areas I’m sure that doesn’t help the situation. Couple that with loss of habitat and you have a pretty good recipe for decline. I don’t see that improving.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

quackmaster said:


> I would have to argue pressure not being a factor. When the birds are pushed daily off of historical feeding/resting areas I’m sure that doesn’t help the situation. Couple that with loss of habitat and you have a pretty good recipe for decline. I don’t see that improving.



I said that I believe that pressure is not the primary factor, I did not say it was not a factor. It's also not only hunting pressure that is a problem. The numbers of late season perch fisherman running through rafts of birds, is not helping either. Those numbers are higher than they used to be. 


Changes in habit, migratory patterns, etc etc are all contributing. I wonder if the BB's are still as thick on Tampa Bay as they once were, or, are them moving further west?


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## Jerry Lamb (Aug 3, 2015)

DecoySlayer said:


> I said that I believe that pressure is not the primary factor, I did not say it was not a factor. It's also not only hunting pressure that is a problem. The numbers of late season perch fisherman running through rafts of birds, is not helping either. Those numbers are higher than they used to be.
> 
> 
> Changes in habit, migratory patterns, etc etc are all contributing. I wonder if the BB's are still as thick on Tampa Bay as they once were, or, are them moving further west?


I have heard it's nesting losses due to high levels of Selenium found in mussels, snails and clams.


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## Jerry Lamb (Aug 3, 2015)

deadduck365 said:


> It’s not the quality of the hunt I worry about. It’s the unsafe practices that are taking place.


It's going to look like the scene in the movie Jaws where all the amatuer Shark hunters went out to try and catch it. Some one please load the clip? Then, subustitute in your mind people in those boats with guns versus fishing rods.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Jerry Lamb said:


> I have heard it's nesting losses due to high levels of Selenium found in mussels, snails and clams.



I have heard that as well, I have also heard that idea fell through. I really don't know. I also read once that it was a lack of certain food sources, I cannot remember what they were, that were once common when they were returning to the nesting grounds. I wonder if there is just one thing causing the drop, or a combination of many. I sure do miss the days when you could walk from Gibraltar to the Detroit Light on the backs of BB's and not get wet!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Jerry Lamb said:


> I have heard it's nesting losses due to high levels of Selenium found in mussels, snails and clams.


That was a major theory, but if I recall the DNR "experts" said there isn't any real data to prove it. The last theory I recall was there has been an overall shift in the migration pattern from the Canadian prairies all the way down to the gulf, and the contention is what used to be the Mississippi flyway really isn't any longer...it's kind of split into two, one following a more easterly path, and one following a more westerly path. The feeling was low water on the great lakes since the mid-90's was one major cause for the "shift" in migratory patterns.


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## idylmoments (Apr 28, 2002)

> It’s not the quality of the hunt I worry about. It’s the unsafe practices that are taking place.


 I think that is what will bring about changes. We've seen more Darwin candidates in the last month than in the last 10 years combined. Standing up in the layout shooting, overloaded draw johnboat (because it has flip up wheels) on big water, etc. When someone dies, things will change. I have had conversations almost daily for the last month with non hunters trying to explain what is happening is legal, but someone will mess that up. Just like the mess out there Sat and Sun makes hard to defend the way we hunt. I saw it mentioned here about a 2 or 3 bird limit. That would still allow trophy drakes, but save from the pile going in the garbage that you know happens. btw we used to save em for sausage. Only worse eating bird is a sharptail.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

just ducky said:


> That was a major theory, but if I recall the DNR "experts" said there isn't any real data to prove it. The last theory I recall was there has been an overall shift in the migration pattern from the Canadian prairies all the way down to the gulf, and the contention is what used to be the Mississippi flyway really isn't any longer...it's kind of split into two, one following a more easterly path, and one following a more westerly path. The feeling was low water on the great lakes since the mid-90's was one major cause for the "shift" in migratory patterns.


I don't believe that "low water" levels are the problem. They were a lot lower in times past, and there were more birds using this area. Many areas around where I grew up, that were once high and dry, are STILL under water since the Lakes came up in the '70's.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

just ducky said:


> which is why I earlier suggested perch fishing, either anchored or drifting. Ask the guys who are using layouts...many are perch fishing out of the tender boat while waiting. Obviously you couldn't legally shoot them while trolling for walleye.


Anyone half in the know doesn’t have time to perch fish while tending for squaw. If you have that kind of time you are doing something wrong.


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## grassmaster (Jan 10, 2009)

A 2 -3 bird limit on Longtails is stupid, why? there's tons of em and nobody on the west side anyway is going after them for the rest of the season its gale warnings for a week out there.
more and more Longtails are using the great lakes because of both species of mussels.
I say smoke em if ya got em gentleman! you might get 10 days at best on longtails just because of the weather, then ad in the fact that one perfect day may be a wednesday and then you need at least 3 guys to work the boat and the lines.
These birds are here to stay, enjoy them.
Bingo draws are way more a "zoo" than being on the big lake.
ever hear of a Sea duck hunter getting shot by the party next to him? nope.
Remember there's safety in numbers, although it doesn't mean you can rely on your neighbor to save your life when his 14 ft jon boat is sinking, it is comforting to hear shots out there.
being out there alone when its rough ads to the intensity and allure of it for me.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

DecoySlayer said:


> I don't believe that "low water" levels are the problem. They were a lot lower in times past, and there were more birds using this area. Many areas around where I grew up, that were once high and dry, are STILL under water since the Lakes came up in the '70's.


Don't know where you're hunting, but I can personally attest to the bay. It's not just the water levels, but what that does to the habitat. The water levels on the bay right now are comparable to '96-'97, after which they took a nose dive of several feet until just a couple years ago...so 20 years approximately? What that did is change the habitat, which (according to the theory) changed the patterns of waterfowl. The phragmites on the bay is out of control, and that started in the low water years. Phrag provides very little, if anything, in the way of habitat for ANY critters, let alone waterfowl. I hunted areas this fall that I hadn't been able to access with a boat for 20 years due to low water, and what used to be cattails and other lower cover is now solid phrag, and the stuff is darn near impenetrable so most of that area is now nearly unhuntable. Birds don't like it any more than we like it. So what the theory suggests is the low water created a lot of other problems, not just a lack of water.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> Anyone half in the know doesn’t have time to perch fish while tending for squaw. If you have that kind of time you are doing something wrong.


Your opinion, but I know the people I hunt with do. Got multiple hunters, and with two layouts, that leaves 2 or 3 hunters in the tender boat with time on their hands. In that short 1-2 hour time frame to get a multiple hunter limit of squaw, you can catch some damn nice perch


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

just ducky said:


> Don't know where you're hunting, but I can personally attest to the bay. It's not just the water levels, but what that does to the habitat. The water levels on the bay right now are comparable to '96-'97, after which they took a nose dive of several feet until just a couple years ago...so 20 years approximately? What that did is change the habitat, which (according to the theory) changed the patterns of waterfowl. The phragmites on the bay is out of control, and that started in the low water years. Phrag provides very little, if anything, in the way of habitat for ANY critters, let alone waterfowl. I hunted areas this fall that I hadn't been able to access with a boat for 20 years due to low water, and what used to be cattails and other lower cover is now solid phrag, and the stuff is darn near impenetrable so most of that area is now nearly unhuntable. Birds don't like it any more than we like it. So what the theory suggests is the low water created a lot of other problems, not just a lack of water.


I hunt around LEMP, downriver etc. Water levels went up in the '70's and have yet to ever get down to where they were before they went up. 

I will never forget the first time I really noticed that the water was starting to come up. I tried to boat under a bridge, on Grosse Isle, to visit a friend who lived above it. I had be doing that for years. That time, while in the same boat, I got stuck with my windshield hung up on the underside of the bridge. 

It's never been low enough for that boat to get under it again.

I remember when Celeron was one island and much longer than it is now. I also remember when the celery was so thick on the west side of it that you could be running on plane and it would shut you down.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

TSS Caddis said:


> Anyone half in the know doesn’t have time to perch fish while tending for squaw. If you have that kind of time you are doing something wrong.


Yes they are walleye fishing.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

grassmaster said:


> A 2 -3 bird limit on Longtails is stupid, why? there's tons of em and nobody on the west side anyway is going after them for the rest of the season its gale warnings for a week out there.
> more and more Longtails are using the great lakes because of both species of mussels.
> I say smoke em if ya got em gentleman! you might get 10 days at best on longtails just because of the weather, then ad in the fact that one perfect day may be a wednesday and then you need at least 3 guys to work the boat and the lines.
> These birds are here to stay, enjoy them.
> ...


I have been shot out there. Had to hit the deck. Bb’s hit the side of the boat.


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