# "Flies Only" Areas



## Ladykiller (Jul 22, 2000)

Oh, and Ralf, one more thing....If you wanna retrieve faster use the strip-jerk retrieve with your flyrod. better action, faster retrieve. You really need to buy or borrow the book "modern streamers for trophy trout". it will give you some major insight on gear choices and how to improve your odds, as well as this retrieve method. no sense spending a few hundred $$$ on a new setup if you may not like it anyways. buy the book for around $20 and you will not be disappointed.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Good deal Tim. 

We can always get the fall browns at the Funeral Home, Rinke's Run or the Island below BS Camp. 
My biggest last year was a hair over 12lbs. 
It was also one of the last times I fished with the Pizza Man. 

Any word from our Home River?
I did some E-mails with Sideshow, he wants to get together for some steel.


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## PW (Apr 2, 2000)

Splitshot, you're right when you say that many factors influence the productivity of any given piece of water. Catch and release regulations can be one of them. I'm familiar with studies that reach conclusions like the ones you cited, but I've seen others that offer different results. The point is that no one management tactic can produce great fishing on every river. In places where angler pressure is very heavy, C&R is a viable option. 

As far as C&R being promoted by "well to do fly fishermen," you're not dealing with reality. If you really want to know why it got started in Michigan, go read what the Au Sable was like in the 50's before TU got started in quality management was undertaken. If you spend any time on fly waters (and from your post, I'm guessing you don't), you'll see that most of the fly fishermen there are average joes. 

Finally, since, as you point out, most water falls under general regs, why are you so concered about C&R on a minescule part of MIchigan's trout waters? If you fly fish, the fly-only stretches are at your disposal. If you don't, why not start? If you can afford a computer, you can certainly afford a decent fly rig.

Your complaint about being excluded from C&R water makes about as much sense as if I complained about being excluded from the offshore salmon fishery because I can't afford a cabin cruiser and a big motor. Sure I can fish for these things when they run the rivers, but that's not good enough! I gotta have 'em all, dang it!


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

Be happy. The cold water fishing in this great state of ours is spectacular. We have it made here and yet are not happy. What a country! Are we ever spoiled or what? Imagine living in Ohio or Indiana! We have it made in the shade  folks! Enjoy it!
I remember the nightmare of fishing the Croton and Newaygo area in the '70's. The snagging was bringing out the absolute worse in everybody. You couldn't walk 50' without gettting tangled in discarded heavy mono or kicking a beer can. My buddy saw a guys bicept ripped out from a snagger who thought the tug on the other end of his line was a salmon! I really don't miss that action. 
Questions. How do fish having three sets of barbed treble hooks impale them survive at the same rate of a fish caught on a small barbless dry fly? And what of gut hooked fish? Do you simply cut the line on your Rapala like you can do on a fly or do you wrestle it out of the fish? Which do you think is better on the fish? I ain't buying the notion that survival rates of fish are the same no matter what lure, bait or fly is used. It just doesn't make sense.
Be happy and petition instead for a few metro area C&R lakes or ponds for a quality fishery near home.


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## Ladykiller (Jul 22, 2000)

Hey Ralf, I am a lil confused here. Those first two holes you mentioned, I haven't got the faintest clue. Fall browns? I was talking about stream browns. I do need to catch my first LRB though! I think I know what ya mean though. And my home river is the South Branch of the Ausable, I am unsure what your home river is. Email me tonight at [email protected] cause I think I know what you are talking about though, but I wanna be sure. Reason being, I plan on hitting The Triad Saturday night and Sunday if I can get all my hw done. I'll clue ya in from there and tell ya my game plan for this fall if everything goes as planned. We'll pick up alot of info, and Sideshow is keeping me up to date as well. I still got some steelhead spawn leftover too. As for fall steel, I'm game. The itch for salmon doesn't get to me, but since i can't hunt this year, i wanna try my hand for the first time at fall browns and steel.Okay, this post is a little choppy and weird, give me a break, I have been studying and taking tests and doing hw all darn day. Thank goodness the wknd is here.

p.s. seeing as i gave Ray a nickname, i gotta give you one. let the fun begin....hehe


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## PW (Apr 2, 2000)

All right split--

Go ahead and wage your one-man war. As far as TU goes, yes, they do support C&R--at least literature they send me does. They sure as heck put out a lot of shirts/bumper stickers/lapel pins to encourage the practice. It isn't their sole agenda, but they certainly don't disdain CR regs where appropriate as part of a quality management strategy. I didn't mention Steelheaders or MUCC, but I'll trust your summary of their positions. I don't support additional miles of C&R or fly only water--but I don't want to lose any either, even if I am often sharing it with upper middle class white guys. Since you're a fly angler, and one with conservation scruples to boot, I guess I can't understand your anger at CR/Fly only. You can tilt at windmills: I'll just go fishing.

And actually, I don't pine for an offshore boat. I do sort of wish that some of the resources the state puts into salmon and steelhead were diverted to inland trout fishing, but then I remember that other people have the right to pursue the kind of fishing experience they like, even if I don't care for it or see the point in it myself. Don't they?


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## fishinlk (Apr 14, 2000)

Oh, Splitshot.....

PA still hasn't approved the artificials in all of the FFO waters yet. It has fallen into a two yr review period because of a large number of fly anglers who expressed their feelings. Just keeping the facts straight. 


I've put my 2 cents about this one before so I guess I'll do it again. The special regs areas should remain the way they are. I may bend to the point of agreeing to the artificial lures but NO WAY on the bait. Most trash on special regs waters comes from canoe traffic not fisherman. Bait fishing almost always equals trash, period.

As far as C+R and the more restrictive regs.
Yes, it's a shame when you lose a fish and can't keep it BUT the same thing happens on the open waters. Most of the fish that have gone belly up on me were those 5 or 6" brookies that whacked my brn drake or hex and stuck great BIG hook through the roof of their mouth into their brain. The argument on small flies killing more fish doesn't hold much water with me. I see a lot more lip hooked fish with small flies. If you are looking to keep a "Trophy " there are plenty of special reg waters to keep that 17" plus fish. As far as keeping a "couple" for the freezer. There are a LOT of guys out there still that have the mentality that you have to keep your limit every time out. Opening up some of these great waters that we have to that pressure will have a detrimental affect especially on popular streams because EVERYONE will hit them hard if they get opened. If for no other reason than the old thought process of virgin waters syndrome.

Well I've said my peace and I promise not to beat the dead horse too much!


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Tim, I'm looking to put a few of us together for a weekend on the Au Sable for the end of October. As far as stream trout, it's hard for me to concentrate on them, once the steelhead and LR browns start showing up. I ordered the Streamer Book last night.
Be easy on me for the nick name. It could be a double edged sword. lol

PW, you sure came across wrong in your first post. Stating that Splitshot should be able to afford a fly rig, was kind of rude.
His rigs are worth more than your best car in the driveway, unless you own a Jag.
You made refference to Big Water Fishing. How can you compare the two? Let's say you wanted to go fish the lake and a law states, you must have a 25ft. boat with a minimum of 4 downriggers, would that be right? 
Of course not. 

How can any law limit the type of equipment used on a public water? I guess the operative word is Public.
You can fly fish anywhere. No law against that, why should one be limited to just that?

My initial point to this was, the big fish will not be fooled by a fly.
They are never hooked. 
I sure wish I could prove that to you.
Maybe one day, you can take your rig and I'll take mine. At the end of the day we'll compare results. You would not think that fish of that size exist, because you'll never see them swinging speys or dries.

Why do flydunkers insist on taking the best sections of a river? 
Is it your's or is it public? Do you believe that it will end there?
Since you guys mentioned how crowded those areas are, further restrictions will be put in place. Special permits, perhaps a lottery or a gear restriction, would you be an advocate of that?

We took our Chef down the PM a few weeks ago. He fly fished until he couldn't take it anymore. All of us were hooking browns in the 15-21" class. I don't think, he even owns a spinning rod. He borrowed one.
Perhaps he can explain it a little better.
I enjoy throwing flies, but it will not produce pigs.

Go ahead and be a sheep. Don't fall off the cliff.

Maybe one day you'll see the light.


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

Shoeman, First off, you rock! Don speaks so highly of you that I look forward to the time we meet.
I know first hand that that big browns can be caught on a fly. Ask anyone who has fished the hex hatch or ask anyone who has slammed streamers, mouses or rats in the hunt for Mamu! I've even done well in broad daylight stripping zonkers in thin water. I have witnesses to two nice browns caught during the day during the Hendrickson hatch this year on a #14 dry fly.
There is no better sense of accomplishment than tricking a large, wise trout into sipping a floating dry fly that you tied. It just haunts you until you do it again.
Every single fly fisher I know (including me) started out with spinning gear and/or bait. Every single one of those people are also free to go back to hardware. Few do. Why? I dunno! Harware is certainly cheaper and more effective for the most part, and less complicated too it seems. There is just something about fly fishing that hooks the souls of many who try it.
I have absolutely no problem with how anyone fishes, as long as it's within the rules and is ethical.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Jackster, I too started with night crawlers, and spinners. I primarily use flies now, but many times during the year will go back to spinners when I feel the mood. I do catch more fish using spinners, but there's just something about the catch on the fly that is so addictive.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Shoeman _
> *No restrictions other than Flies only.
> 
> I know what you're thinking....... just use a large streamer.
> ...


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

I totally agree with the addictive nature of flyfishing.
After purchasing my T&T 5wt, this past winter, I became obsessed.

Out of over 40 fish over 15" this year, only 2 succumbed to a fly.
One was 16, the other 18 1/2. 
It may sound like bragging, but fish of that size are very common and a weekly occurance with other methods. 

I have never floated the Green Cottage area until recently.
You talk about pig water, it must be full of them. It just bugs me, that I can't fish it with conventional gear.

Please, no hard feelings. This is a mere attempt to remove the blindfold from some of the misinformed masses, that seem to follow these self-interest groups.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

While you guys digest Ray's post, let me shed some additional light on flyfishing.

This was my first year of salmon fishing with a fly.
The reality of such a practice, is the amount of foul-hooked fish.
On gravel it's way over 80%.
When fishing pre-spawn (fish in deeper holes) the rate is closer to 50%.

At what point does one look down on bait fisherman?

Prior to this year, I fished for salmon primarily with spawn and plugs. Foul-hooked fish are a rarity. Either they hit or they don't.

Does the elitist have more of a right?

Don't hide behind your Orvis or Sage. You know it's true.


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## Tippy (Sep 28, 2001)

Well personally I have fished the PM several times, in both flies only and other water. As far as it being a dangerous river to wade. Be carefull, the current is strong and the river bed is mostly loose rocks and slippery clay. But it is a lot of fun. 
And for the Flies only water. It is some of the best water I have fished. Both for the big browns and salmon. Yeah sometimes I would like to keep a good fish for the table, but that is what the rest of the river is for. 
The flies only no kill area is to help preserve the native fish population whitch is important to preserve the beautifull fisheries that Michigan has. So with that in mind I just enjoy the beautifull seanery and hope it's still there for my kids to enjoy.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Tippy

First of all, welcome to our site.
Secondly, too bad you walked in on a confrontational thread.
Usually our posts are a little more tranquil.

Please don't hold this against us.
Every so often we get on the subject of C&R and flies only.

It's just a way to see if everyone is awake. lol

Enjoy


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Yes Shoeman I second the welcome and for the most part I think this thread has remained quite civilized.


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## PW (Apr 2, 2000)

This is actually getting somewhere. I'm starting to understand the opposition of ethical fly fishermen to FF/C&R sections. It's not about access to the river--it's about access to big browns by any means necessary.

Now I like to catch big fish, and I will agree that spin tackle is the most reliable method for catching the biggest trout in a river. But like Jackster said, the big boys certainly can be taken with flies. It's just a bit more of a challenge. Sure it's fun to get the big ones, but do you have to get them every time? Knowing they're there, and that they might whack your fly if you can get it in there just right, is a reward in itself. Just having that salmon-size brown come out and look over your streamer is a heart stopping thrill. Maybe next time it will chomp the fly. I like to keep a bit of mystery in fishing just as much as I like fish in the net. There are more ways than one to gague the success of an outing. I respect your standards--don't run down those of others.

If you're going to get the big guys on a fly, it takes patience, timing, and creative thinking. Maybe some night fishing. When the going gets tough...you know the rest. Back in the cedar swamps of the UP, there some bigger than average bucks--should hunters be allowed to build walkways into the swamps in order to get at them more efficiently? I would hope not. Fortunately, there are plenty of places to hunt deer, even trophies, that are less challenging. To bring this back to fishing, there are miles and miles of big water in this state that hold big trout and are fishable with all types of tackle. Why is it necessary to invade the the designated fly waters with hardware? The big trout of our fly waters represent a new challenge, maybe an ucharted frontier, for fly fishermen. They are not an entitlement. 

Also, many, many apologies for underestimating the size of splitshot's rod collection. Maybe we should catalogue our rod inventories in our profiles to avoid such mistakes in the future. And, SFK, nobody in this thead has insulted spin fishermen, keeping fish where legal, or eating fish in themselves. Take the time to read people's posts before you start venting your resentments. (and no disrespect intended, but you seem to have a lot of them.) 

Last Sunday, I ate part of a salmon I caught in Manistee Lake at the end of August. Hate to burst anyone's assumptions, but I caught it on a plug using one of those dreaded yellow rods. Please forgive me


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2001)

I would say that about sums it up Clay!


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

I see that your post is a little more civil than the original one.
I am however still having difficulty with some of your terminology




> It's not about access to the river--it's about access to big browns by any means necessary.


What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Why should the browns be accessible by only a select few?

Are they your fish, or do they belong to everyone that buys a license?

Perhaps, we should get a flies only stamp. At that point I can deal with the fact they are flies only fish.

You must be under the belief that as soon as you use a worm or a spinner, it's a no-brainer. I beg to differ. Next year, I might have to take you down some river and show you what trout fishing is all about.
Yeah, yeah, the scenery and nature, blah, blah.
I go to fish. If I want to see some scenery, I'll climb a mountain. lol


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## BowDad (Jul 19, 2000)

What I want to know is how the hell you fly guys catch all those pesky flies to put on your hooks? I mean every time I go to swat one of those damn things I always miss. Personally, I find digging worms much easier. 

To each his own I guess.

Have a fruitful weekend!


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Well maybe I was wrong about this discussion staying semi-civil. Whenever this comes up it seems to go this way.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Oh, Steve. 
That's what keeps us young.
We haven't had a good one in a while.
I have yet to see a bunch of %$%##@$'s or browns with X's.

BTW, we plan on fishing the Flies Only Water, this weekend. lol

Smile.......


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Clay, Clay, Clay............

You're wild. Remember your blood pressure.
He really doesn't mean to come across like that. Please excuse him.

We currently are trying to balance his medication.

I will however go in on the financial aspect of a bet.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2001)

Man northern outdoorsman You do know how to get the blood flowing don't you!
I will spare you all from my beliefs on this subject and just say that it is a good thing everyone is going fishing this weekend! 
Except for Serial Fish Killer who will have a wonderful weekend with his kids.

So far some of you have pushed the envelope a little. Which is fine but please none of you go over that line. I hate deleting posts. Unless they are started by ........ Ahhhhh never mind.

Everyone have a great weekend doing whatever you are going to be doing!


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## Ladykiller (Jul 22, 2000)

$100.....next August....neutral water....one FULL day.....my flyrod and one fly......largest brown takes the crown! Your on! Are driftboats with someone on the oars allowed? Then there is the question of which river? That will be the main problem!


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## WEEZER (Feb 1, 2000)

I'm ready to shut it down right now. I think it was super sick that someone dug up the dead horse to beat it again. Poor horse 
Seriously I could care less about the whole debate because everything(Valid points wise) are the same the only thing different is the joking and the name calling. I don't even want to waste my time reading all of the posts, If anyone is somehow offended by a personal attack just let me know cause otherwise I won't be paying close attention.


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

>The truth is, it takes more skill being a good worm dunker than a fly dunker any day!<

I dunno! Done both and personally find hatch-matching, getting a drag free drift in cross currents, the fine line between too light a tippet and a heavy one, splashy presentation and an assortment of other things far more challenging than deciding how many splitshot to put on. Beadhead nymphs should drift drag free on or near the slower current at the bottom and they are after the same big fish which like cover. I think on this point 'successful' fly dunking demands more skill.

SFK. Define liberal. That nasty word pops up more and more every single day. I hope it isn't turning into catch-all word for anyone who doesn't agree on an issue. If enjoying fly fishing and being for some quality fishing areas makes me a liberal, that stinks and plain 'ol ain't fair. What of that great guy Ted Turner, he has bought and closed to the public many more miles of primo river than there are designated C&R areas in Michigan. If you call Ted a liberal then I really need an explanation of what the heck a liberal is.

p.s. The last time this interesting discussion got going it was yanked. This topic seems to be close to the hearts of many on both sides of the issue and I hope some ground rules by Weezer are layed out clearly so we don't cross any lines.


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## Ladykiller (Jul 22, 2000)

We need a river either both of us know, or that both of us don't know. Then there is the question of do we fish near or far apart. Who goes first through, etc....

Oh well, it's a year in the making.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Jack, Weezer, Tim, Chef, Steve and all the others involved.
I believe this is a great thread. It shows how a cross-section of fishermen think. I don't however, approve of name calling to stress a point. I do have to agree with Jackster about the level of skill neccessary to properly select and present a fly.
To me it's facinating and challenging. That's the reason I'm pursuing flyfishing. 

Let's not let this get out of hand and start alienating each other.
This site has always been known for members to have a differance in opinions and still be civil.


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## Ladykiller (Jul 22, 2000)

well i could lay down my opinions a gravel bar long on this thread on everything you guys have talked about so far. but hey, i keep things simple and stress-free.

I think I may have to fish the Pine with Ralf or Ray next year again. I'll bring my spinning gear (i need a new rod first) and teach you boys a few things as well. I'll keep my lil secrets til then. But for now, I got a question on the Lil Manistee and the Pine. The browns that you guys catch, the 20" size pigs.....what do you find mostly in their stomachs. Basically, I am looking for the specific food base in each river. Do they get sculpins, dace, or darters? How's the crayfish population in each? You get the drift, big fish prey items.


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## fishinlk (Apr 14, 2000)

OH MY! Splitshot..

Looks like we have some clearing up to do. Some of these you missed the intent of the post. Others, well, you got the gist of it. Its the first time I ever got the old elitist phrase sent my way. You surprised me on this one you are usually a little more detail oriented in your reading.

You are correct about the PA thing being a political decision. And I cant say I disagree with making the change to ARTIFICIALS ONLY. I will have to double-check your numbers though, because I think they are leaving out the FFO areas that are delayed harvest. The mileage stated sounds like the Heritage sections only. Now back to MI issues.

I dont think I have a condescending attitude towards my fellow fishers. Ill stand by my statement all the way to my grave. Bait fishing almost always equals trash. Period Please note the ALMOST portion. There are exceptions to every rule. Like you said there are people that will litter no matter what. The PM is one river that I dont know that well but Im guessing the area you are speaking of is also an area that gets the salmon runs. My guess is that many of the guys that FF for salmon in the area and were only doing it because they cant be in there with their bait. The statement about litter is actually more applicable to your typical spring summer seasons on the rivers. We know that salmon season brings out the worst in people.

You missed the point on killing fish. Because I kill some fish with the fly rod Vs a spinner does not make it any better. My point was that most fish killed are sub legal fish regardless of it being C+R regs or open regs. I also stated that I could buy into the artificials only idea. Just no BAIT. Going on the bait fishing $$ going to stream improvements. I thought the trees being flown in this year are being placed in open regs waters? How does this add up to your statement? Personally Id like to see the non-special reg areas get the bulk of the money as I fish the special reg areas as more of the EXCEPTION.

The trophy fish thing was directed at the masses. Im well aware of your abilities to catch fish. I will also say that you guys are an exception to the rule when it comes to big fish and the fact that you let a decent number go. Like I said, there are a LOT of people that will keep everything they can every time out. Yes these streams are fish factories but how do you think they stay that way? I have absolutely no problems with people keeping fish or people that bait fish as long as they pick after themselves. I just think some special regs areas are a VERY good thing. Increase them? No. Keep what weve got? By all means!


Im really hoping to get together with you guys at one of the outings next summer. I think in a lot of ways weve got an awful lot in common.


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## PW (Apr 2, 2000)

Arrgh! I probably shouldn't spend any more time with this, but I want to clear up a few things or try to. 

First, I have not made a single sarcastic remark in this thread-- a little tounge-in-cheek humor in my last post, but certainly nothing sarcastic. And beleive it or not, I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I never tried to run down anyone's values--I posed alternatives, but not in the spirit of threatening or bullying. Nor did I apologize for "coming down to the level" of spin fishermen: I apologized for bursting the image some seem to be gleefully developing of me as a fly-fishing elitist. Nothing could be further from the truth, but some still cling to that image. More than anybody's position on CR/Fly only, what's bothered me here are the responses which don't actually look at what I or others wrote. When I said, "This is getting somewhere," I meant it: I didn't understand the basis of the hostility to Fly Only at first. The discussion was shedding light as well as heat, although that didn't last long. SFK, this isn't a personal attack, just honest advice: when you want to use someone's words against them, make sure you understand the words first. Splitshot, I'm sorry I insulted your rod collection--based on your early post, I guessed you might not be a fly fisherman. It looks like there are mistaken assumptions on all sides. 

My last word on the special regs issue: Let's keep different kinds of fishing experiences available. One-size-fits-all regulations don't benefit all fisheries or all fishermen. If you don't like the options and challenges offered by FLy only or CR stretches, you've got plenty of alternatives. I do like fly fishing better than other methods and some of the fly-only waters have a special place in my heart, but I like to sample different opportunities over the course of a season. I wouldn't like to see a sigle of those opportunities lost.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Jackster allow me to try to discribe SFK's definition and manipulation of liberalism.

Picture a fuel gauge. E is liberal, F is conservative.

Clay is past the full mark, actually overflowing. Anything below the full is liberal. Actually, as soon as the needle moves. lol

Now, he does enjoy a liberal boss, liberal paycheck, liberal spouse, liberal fishing regs, liberal campgrounds, liberal police force and so on and so on. You get the picture. 

It's something he plays like a 6 string. 

After you meet him, it's quite funny, but you have to spend time with him to see the humor.
I've learned not to take him seriously at all. 
Some of you don't know how to interpret his bristly posts.
I don't believe he means to come across that way.

I will tell you, if you need a good guy on your side, he's one of them and at least he's predictable. lol

Tim

The pigs, in waters that have a good population of craws, that is probably the food of choice.
The disturbing thing is the high amount of trout found in the bellies of large browns. (specifically rainbows)

I always look forward to learning a trick or two and fishing with you. Maybe a trip to Hodenpyle this upcoming season.
It's a good river for a combination of situations. Gravel, holes, runs, eddies and backwaters. It's large enough accomodate several guys. 

Please try to keep this post clean and the slamming to a minimum.
After all, it's just differant opinions anyway.
It has absolutely nothing to do with your political affiliation, sexual preference or criminal background.
It's about fishing.


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## PW (Apr 2, 2000)

Arrgh! I probably shouldn't spend any more time with this, but I want to clear up a few things or try to. 

First, I have not made a single sarcastic remark in this thread-- a little tounge-in-cheek humor in my last post, but certainly nothing sarcastic. And beleive it or not, I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I never tried to run down anyone's values--I posed alternatives, but not in the spirit of threatening or bullying. Nor did I apologize for "coming down to the level" of spin fishermen: I apologized for bursting the image some seem to be gleefully developing of me as a fly-fishing elitist. Nothing could be further from the truth, but some still cling to that image. More than anybody's position on CR/Fly only, what's bothered me here are the responses which don't actually look at what I or others wrote. When I said, "This is getting somewhere," I meant it: I didn't understand the basis of the hostility to Fly Only at first. The discussion was shedding light as well as heat, although that didn't last long. SFK, this isn't a personal attack, just honest advice: when you want to use someone's words against them, make sure you understand the words first. Splitshot, I'm sorry I insulted your rod collection--based on your early post, I guessed you might not be a fly fisherman. It looks like there are mistaken assumptions on all sides. 

My last word on the special regs issue: Let's keep different kinds of fishing experiences available. One-size-fits-all regulations don't benefit all fisheries or all fishermen. If you don't like the options and challenges offered by FLy only or CR stretches, you've got plenty of alternatives. I do like fly fishing better than other methods and some of the fly-only waters have a special place in my heart, but I like to sample different opportunities over the course of a season. I wouldn't like to see a sigle of those opportunities lost.


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## Ladykiller (Jul 22, 2000)

Well the reason I ask Ralf is that you had mentioned the Pine did not have a good population of craws I thought. I was wondering if these systems have alot of sculpins in them as the primary big fish food source like the systems I fish. I do know that some of the systems though are supported by craws. Basically I am just planning for next summer, thinking of what needs to be tied and tried. Even parr or smolt for that matter. I want to ty a pattern to match them as well.


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## Ladykiller (Jul 22, 2000)

oh, and shoeman, you rarely foul hook a fish on spawn? gosh, i have foul hooked countless steelies on it. i've never tried it on salmon though.


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## Woolybugger (Feb 26, 2001)

I want to stress Splitshot's point that he makes whenever we have this discussion/argument and that is we need more stream restoration and conservation. It has been brought up repeatedly that these rivers were fish factories but there still is a finite amount of fish. The Au Sable was once a grayling factory but I don't think anyone has seen any recently. The rivers are a delicate resource and should be handled carefully. Someone made the point that if fly fishing still injures fish then we should close rivers to all fishing. I think that may be a good idea, especially if we include all river traffic, i.e. illegal to enter the water at all.
Support of public waters comes from both government (taxes and licenses) and private (TU, local groups, guys like Splitshot improving his stream front property) funds. I think one of the benefits of flies only waters is that it gives groups like TU specific areas to focus their efforts so that most of their members get the benefit from their efforts. How many times have we had people complain as they were releasing a nice trout on Paint Creek while the guy down stream was taking five home. Legal, but it kinda gets you sometimes. No offense, SFK, there's hardly enough to go around in that creek. They're stocked, so the other half of me says go for it. Should these groups get the best waters. Probably not, the bad ones need the help.
I guess it all comes down to conservation. Someone's signature reads "We do not inherit the land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." I really want to take my little one fly fishing for trout.


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## Ladykiller (Jul 22, 2000)

Oh, and about the whole thing about Ray Schmidt marking the holes, and you know the other rumors I heard from you guys.....please stop. They are just that, RUMORS! Unless you have actually seen this for your own eyes, stop it. Bad mouthing guides ain't cool.


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## WEEZER (Feb 1, 2000)

How the heck are you gonna mark a trout stream? Each time I hit the river a different run is producing better or worse than the day before.If the rivers are really marked it is a joke. 
One of Schmidts guides is a good freind of a friend and I know that he is a helluva fisherman and he shares his boat with bait dunkers quite a bit(Except they don't toss bait from his rig) I don't understand why everyone wants to playa hate anyway, Usually it has a lot to do with jelously but hell what do I know?
Don't the big lake guides share GPS locations with eachother? Hot lures? depths etc? what the diff.?????


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Why in the world a guide would ever mark a hole is beyond me. Anyone wading down the river would easily see the marker and know to fish the area. It would seem to me that it would be in the guides best interest to only mark spots in their head not physically. It would be like finding the ultimate deer hunting spot and then marking a trail to it with enough glow in the dark reflectors to make it look like a highway. Kind of counter-productive if ya know what I mean.


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