# Thanks alot DNR



## Bucman

The timing sucks but. Some legit non tribal guy probably turned you in for an illegal barrel. Just mark it and it should solve the problem. Sounds to me like she cleaned up an illegal bait sight. Jmho


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## jd4223

Have had more than several complaints involving DNR incompetence/harassment. From trying to make illegal searches, to not knowing the rules/law. Reporting them/filing complaints leads to being given Special Attention".


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## Nostromo

jd4223 said:


> Have had more than several complaints involving DNR incompetence/harassment. From trying to make illegal searches, to not knowing the rules/law. Reporting them/filing complaints leads to being given Special Attention".


Special attention is not always unwarranted.


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## Waif

jwheelfan03 said:


> Dana Nessel - that’s funny right there, she sure cares about hunters 😂


Probably sprint right out there herself and rehang the camera.


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## jd4223

I'm sure you would appreciate the "special attention" you get when they decide to check your hunting license 3 evenings in a row while you sit on stand waiting for a bear to hit your bait. Or the "special attention" you get when fishing a private pond on private property and they want to see your fishing license and threaten to write you a ticket for too many fish caught because you and the owner of the property put all the fish caught in 1 bucket. Or the "special attention" you get when you drive onto your property and get out of your vehicle wearing an orange snowmobile suit and DNR deems that as "Probable Cause" to search your vehicle for a possible "hunting violation"!


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## Nostromo

jd4223 said:


> I'm sure you would appreciate the "special attention" you get when they decide to check your hunting license 3 evenings in a row while you sit on stand waiting for a bear to hit your bait. Or the "special attention" you get when fishing a private pond on private property and they want to see your fishing license and threaten to write you a ticket for too many fish caught because you and the owner of the property put all the fish caught in 1 bucket. Or the "special attention" you get when you drive onto your property and get out of your vehicle wearing an orange snowmobile suit and DNR deems that as "Probable Cause" to search your vehicle for a possible "hunting violation"!


As long as you are squared away. You'll eventually fall of their radar.


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## jd4223

Nostromo said:


> As long as you are squared away. You'll eventually fall of their radar.


That's the point. I've never been issued any citations since there never was any violations! It's the fact DNR is looking to find something to justify their so called "special attention". What some call "Just doing their job", others would call "Harassment" Fred Trost comes to mind!


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## Scottygvsu

I’m glad you’re out for answers.
A wise man once told me “the first time is no ones fault.”. This may be the first time she’s encountered a tribal hunter. If so, I hope you give her some slack. If not, a good reprimand is in order.
If nothing else, you saved the next guy from this situation.
Good luck, I hope you get a biggun.


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## Biggbear

Botiz said:


> I get being frustrated but I think you’re overreacting a little bit.
> 
> Get your camera back, and good luck this season. Hope you shoot a bruin.


Botiz I know you're right. I'm very fortunate to have an alternative plan. Just still a bit chapped I guess. I know I need to just CTFD and not stroke out about it. I'm working on it. Lol.


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## Forest Meister

Nostromo said:


> This was a simple misunderstanding.


In an ideal world that would be the case 100% of the time, but we do not live in an ideal world. But, for argument's sake let's assume we live in an ideal world, and it was only a simple misunderstanding, Biggbear still has a right to be made whole by the person/governmental body that jumped to a conclusion and made an incorrect assumption and overstepped their authority. He has a right to have them do it PDQ. FM


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## Biggbear

Ranger Ray said:


> Next time, give the local CO the coordinates you are baiting as a tribal member. Problem solved.


That's probably a very good idea.


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## Biggbear

Big Frank 25 said:


> Why not leave a label of your own, stating you are a tribal member with contact info.


I've done that in the past Frank. When I did other hunters came across my bait and poured kerosene in the barrel and around the bait. Not everyone up here is fond of the Consent Decree. Some are down right nasty about it.


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## Biggbear

pgpn123 said:


> I'm not versed in Tribal policy, but what if everyone hunting the same land had the same rules? On reservations there can be different rules. Just a thought.


I get that perspective, I truly do. The other side of that coin is why should the State get to dictate to the Tribes on treaty lands?

I believe the answer is somewhere in the middle. The Consent Decree was meant to be that middle ground. The State and 5 of the Tribes in Michigan compromised on the rules for Tribe members. Neither side got all of what they wanted, so it was likely a decent negotiation and compromise.

PPGN my reply is not meant to be smart a-- in any way. You asked a valid, honest question and my reply is meant as an honest answer. I appreciate your perspective, and hope my answer provides some food for thought.


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## Biggbear

Scottygvsu said:


> I’m glad you’re out for answers.
> A wise man once told me “the first time is no ones fault.”. This may be the first time she’s encountered a tribal hunter. If so, I hope you give her some slack. If not, a good reprimand is in order.
> If nothing else, you saved the next guy from this situation.
> Good luck, I hope you get a biggun.


Scott I agree with you 100%. My first question for her, and I mean this in all honesty is whether or not she considered it could be a Tribe member. There is a big Reservation less than 30 minutes from where my bait was. If it never dawned on her, maybe it will the next time. If she never considered it, that's a failing of the Dept in how they train COs in this area.

I chose not to mark my barrel to avoid the issues I've had in the past. But as was pointed out I should have been proactive in calling with the GPS coordinates to avoid this problem. Lesson learned on my part.

How this all pans out will be determined by our interaction when she calls me back. Today was her day off. There is a difference between "you know what, it never dawned on me and I probably should have considered that based on where we are" as opposed to " how was I supposed to know, I don't understand what your problem is". I'm a firm believer we teach people how they can treat us.


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## jakeo

pgpn123 said:


> I'm not versed in Tribal policy, but what if everyone hunting the same land had the same rules? On reservations there can be different rules. Just a thought.


If you get a call, ask her why she only took cam and didn't Properly clean up the site to her liking? Was she accusing you before being found guilty/ Sounds like it. SAD!


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## pgpn123

Biggbear said:


> I get that perspective, I truly do. The other side of that coin is why should the State get to dictate to the Tribes on treaty lands?
> 
> I believe the answer is somewhere in the middle. The Consent Decree was meant to be that middle ground. The State and 5 of the Tribes in Michigan compromised on the rules for Tribe members. Neither side got all of what they wanted, so it was likely a decent negotiation and compromise.
> 
> PPGN my reply is not meant to be smart a-- in any way. You asked a valid, honest question and my reply is meant as an honest answer. I appreciate your perspective, and hope my answer provides some food for thought.


That's a good response. I'm not at all familiar with Tribal hunting. They should come up with a way that signifies it's a legal barrel, maybe a # on it CO can call? 
I hope you turn this around and get one yet.


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## big buck 75

First off good luck on your hunt. Hope this was just a mistake on her part and she will learn from it. You are allowed to use a different baiting method than others. No different than a bait pile found prior to the liberty hunt, would the DNR take a camera and assume it is an illegal bait pile.


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## sureshot006

If you don't identify yourself or your bait, how would a CO know? Simply being in the vicinity of a reservation doesn't mean anything to a CO. Honestly, I think they did the right thing considering. Next time, if I were you I'd leave my phone number so it can be squared away.


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## detroitjim

Without speaking with the CO , how do you know that she dumped the barrel?

Did you ask the supervisor what the proper procedure a CO should take when they encounter a suspected illegal bait pile?

Since a I’ve never seen one … what identifies you as a tribal member by the license number alone?

Providing that there is nothing unique , just put that number on it and not anything that would ID you as belonging to a tribe.


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## Spade

Biggbear said:


> I get that perspective, I truly do. The other side of that coin is why should the State get to dictate to the Tribes on treaty lands?
> 
> I believe the answer is somewhere in the middle. The Consent Decree was meant to be that middle ground. The State and 5 of the Tribes in Michigan compromised on the rules for Tribe members. Neither side got all of what they wanted, so it was likely a decent negotiation and compromise.
> 
> PPGN my reply is not meant to be smart a-- in any way. You asked a valid, honest question and my reply is meant as an honest answer. I appreciate your perspective, and hope my answer provides some food for thought.


I don't agree with the way it was handled, however there may be a way to correct it, since your either hunting from a tree stand or ground blind can't you put your name and ph. number on it. As an individual with a brain, I could probably associate the barrel with the blind. Most other hunters would not know whether the barrel is put there by a tribal individual, or someone else, at least the DNR would get a phone call about it, and they could follow up.
On the flip side, why should tribal CO's be allowed to dictate to a non-tribal individual, who is hunting,fishing,trapping etc. on federal lands. I'm aware those lands are part of the Consent Agreement, but I'm sure that most Tribal COs, don't know what laws a non-tribal individual has to follow, and some may be in conflict with tribal regulations.
Not to cause a peeing contest, just my thoughts.
Either way good luck on your bear season!!


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## jjlrrw

sparky18181 said:


> How is the CO supposed to know that this is a tribal bait barrel or joe blow who is violating the law. Answer. He/she can’t


Agree, but they should know the law and know it's possible the barrel could be legal, leave your card with instruction to call, and maybe that is all the CO did. Do we know for sure who remove the camera or mess with the barrel, until the OP's posts about conversation with the CO we are just assuming.


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## sparky18181

jjlrrw said:


> Agree, but they should know the law and know it's possible the barrel could be legal, leave your card with instruction to call, and maybe that is all the CO did. Do we know for sure who remove the camera or mess with the barrel, until the OP's posts about conversation with the CO we are just assuming.


I’d say it’s pretty clear the CO removed the camera and emptied the barrel.  I disagree with you in your assumption that the CO doesn’t know the law. Perhaps the CO does know the law and it’s not up to the CO to tell the violator to call. Do you really think that if this was actually a violator that they are gonna call her. Doubt it. But then by taking the camera as evidence perhaps the CO would then be able to ID said violator In my eyes if you are a tribal hunter you should be aware of this possibly happening to your site since it is illegal for everyone else to bait this way on public land.


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## Biggbear

sparky18181 said:


> I’d say it’s pretty clear the CO removed the camera and emptied the barrel. I disagree with you in your assumption that the CO doesn’t know the law. Perhaps the CO does know the law and it’s not up to the CO to tell the violator to call. Do you really think that if this was actually a violator that they are gonna call her. Doubt it. But then by taking the camera as evidence perhaps the CO would then be able to ID said violator In my eyes if you are a tribal hunter you should be aware of this possibly happening to your site since it is illegal for everyone else to bait this way on public land.


Wait, wait wait. Let me make sure I understand you. You're saying I should go to some extraneous measure, not required by law so the CO doesn't screw up? So it's up to me to train the CO's? It's not up to the DNR to train their CO's it's up to me?

If I was a violator, do you really think taking my camera would make me call her back? You don't think someone who wasn't 100% legal would call back rather than just calling the camera a loss and avoiding a ticket?

Now I do agree that her motivations are pure speculation at this point. After 5 voice-mail messages, and one text over the last 3 days she still hasn't called me back. When I spoke with her Lt. this morning he apologized and said while he didn't know for sure he assumed she must have thought I was a State hunter. He was going to contact her to get her side of the story and call me back this morning. Still haven't heard back from him.


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## sparky18181

Biggbear said:


> Wait, wait wait. Let me make sure I understand you. You're saying I should go to some extraneous measure, not required by law so the CO doesn't screw up? So it's up to me to train the CO's? It's not up to the DNR to train their CO's it's up to me?
> 
> If I was a violator, do you really think taking my camera would make me call her back? You don't think someone who wasn't 100% legal would call back rather than just calling the camera a loss and avoiding a ticket?
> 
> Now I do agree that her motivations are pure speculation at this point. After 5 voice-mail messages, and one text over the last 3 days she still hasn't called me back. When I spoke with her Lt. this morning he apologized and said while he didn't know for sure he assumed she must have thought I was a State hunter. He was going to contact her to get her side of the story and call me back this morning. Still haven't heard back from him.


You already said that maybe you should of done that. Go back and read your post. 

maybe read all my post also. I stayed that no violator would probably call the CO.

the CO didn’t screw anything up in doing her job with what presented her in the field at a bait site that is on public land where barrels are prohibited except to tribal hunters. I’m not saying you are wrong either but you only seem to want to look at it thru your eyes.

so I will ask you this. What would you of done as a CO in this case. How would you of handled it?


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## Jeff Lobbestael

Marking the Barrel was the Right thing to do- But it resulted in Kerosene being poured on the bait... marking the barrel is Still the right thing to do - Or visit/call the local dnr to tell them where you are baiting. 
- just my 2 cents


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## LGB

Biggbear said:


> Wait, wait wait. Let me make sure I understand you. You're saying I should go to some extraneous measure, not required by law so the CO doesn't screw up? So it's up to me to train the CO's? It's not up to the DNR to train their CO's it's up to me?
> 
> If I was a violator, do you really think taking my camera would make me call her back? You don't think someone who wasn't 100% legal would call back rather than just calling the camera a loss and avoiding a ticket?
> 
> Now I do agree that her motivations are pure speculation at this point. After 5 voice-mail messages, and one text over the last 3 days she still hasn't called me back. When I spoke with her Lt. this morning he apologized and said while he didn't know for sure he assumed she must have thought I was a State hunter. He was going to contact her to get her side of the story and call me back this morning. Still haven't heard back from him.


This happens alot believe it or not.


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## Biggbear

sparky18181 said:


> You already said that maybe you should of done that. Go back and read your post.
> 
> maybe read all my post also. I stayed that no violator would probably call the CO.
> 
> the CO didn’t screw anything up in doing her job with what presented her in the field at a bait site that is on public land where barrels are prohibited except to tribal hunters. I’m not saying you are wrong either but you only seem to want to look at it thru your eyes.
> 
> so I will ask you this. What would you of done as a CO in this case. How would you of handled it?


I would have left a note without taking anything. Or better yet I would have come back during season to catch the violator hunting over the illegal bait, thereby adding to the list of violations. We are not going to agree on this. And that's fine. It's all fun and games until it's your property that was taken, and your hunt that's impacted when you're doing nothing wrong. If anything like this ever happens to you, maybe you'll be able to see my side of the equation a little clearer.


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## MossyHorns




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## sparky18181

Biggbear said:


> I would have left a note without taking anything. Or better yet I would have come back during season to catch the violator hunting over the illegal bait, thereby adding to the list of violations. We are not going to agree on this. And that's fine. It's all fun and games until it's your property that was taken, and your hunt that's impacted when you're doing nothing wrong. If anything like this ever happens to you, maybe you'll be able to see my side of the equation a little clearer.


I see your side and the CO s but I feel you are only looking at it thru your eyes. So how many miles from the reservation should the CO assume it’s a tribal hunter. 30-50-100. All of Michigan. It’s not as easy as you make it out to be. And it’s not that I disagree with your position, it’s that since it’s affected you, I don’t think your objectivity is clear Again. I hope this gets resolved and if you don’t get satisfaction from her LT then move further up the food chain. Good luck on your season. I hope to have success also


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## bfaber

Biggbear said:


> I would have left a note without taking anything. Or better yet I would have come back during season to catch the violator hunting over the illegal bait, thereby adding to the list of violations. We are not going to agree on this. And that's fine. It's all fun and games until it's your property that was taken, and your hunt that's impacted when you're doing nothing wrong. If anything like this ever happens to you, maybe you'll be able to see my side of the equation a little clearer.


Your absolutely right on that. Why leave the note just circle back and try to catch someone in the act. I can tell you I was cited for an illegal bait last year (pice of plywood put on top of the hollow log I was using) and that c.o informed me both him and his partner checked it and knew it was Illegal but waited till the first time I sat there to come in and write me a ticket. Was I mad I got a ticket for a piece of plywood? Yep but I was illegal and didn’t know it. Was I mad that they checked it several times and didn’t clear this all up before they walked in and ruined the bait for the year? Yep simple if its state land the baits need marked just like a tree stand and this problem goes away.


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## jjlrrw

sparky18181 said:


> I’d say it’s pretty clear the CO removed the camera and emptied the barrel. I disagree with you in your assumption that the CO doesn’t know the law. Perhaps the CO does know the law and it’s not up to the CO to tell the violator to call. Do you really think that if this was actually a violator that they are gonna call her. Doubt it. But then by taking the camera as evidence perhaps the CO would then be able to ID said violator In my eyes if you are a tribal hunter you should be aware of this possibly happening to your site since it is illegal for everyone else to bait this way on public land.


I am on Biggbear side on this one, I feel the CO should have handled it differently. Saying he (bigbear) should have done "this or that" when "this or that" is not a requirement is nothing more than Monday morning quarterbacking at this point. If the CO knew the law there is no reason they should have removed the camera or dumped the barrel, no different than finding a deer bait station today it could be an illegal setup or a legal setup for the Liberty Hunt, if it's that important it's time to figure out a way to investigate further rather than just assuming it's illegal.

I agree if this was a violator no way they are calling to get a $100 camera back in exchange for a much larger ticket, unless it's a cell camera slim chance any evidence will be found on the camera. Like I said early anything placed on public land should require some type of ID.


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## sparky18181

jjlrrw said:


> I am on Biggbear side on this one, I feel the CO should have handled it differently. Saying he (bigbear) should have done "this or that" when "this or that" is not a requirement is nothing more than Monday morning quarterbacking at this point. If the CO knew the law there is no reason they should have removed the camera or dumped the barrel, no different than finding a deer bait station today it could be an illegal setup or a legal setup for the Liberty Hunt, if it's that important it's time to figure out a way to investigate further rather than just assuming it's illegal.
> 
> I agree if this was a violator no way they are calling to get a $100 camera back in exchange for a much larger ticket, unless it's a cell camera slim chance any evidence will be found on the camera. Like I said early anything placed on public land should require some type of ID.


Fact is the CO handled it how she wanted to handle it. She could of done many different things but she did nothing wrong or illegal in the way she chose to handle it.


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## MossyHorns

sparky18181 said:


> Fact is the CO handled it how she wanted to handle it. She could of done many different things but she did nothing wrong or illegal in the way she chose to handle it.


That's not entirely true. She violated the rights of a tribal hunter. If the CO dosen't resolve the situation quickly, she may have to deal with the BIA.


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## sparky18181

MossyHorns said:


> That's not entirely true. She violated the rights of a tribal hunter. If the CO dosen't resolve the situation quickly, she may have to deal with the BIA.


In order for that to happen it would have to be proven that she knew that and then intentionally acted as she did. That’s not likely to happen and I think you know that.


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## MossyHorns

sparky18181 said:


> In order for that to happen it would have to be proven that she knew that and then intentionally acted as she did. That’s not likely to happen and I think you know that.


Intentional or not, his rights were still violated and you know that. That's all the proof he needs.


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## sparky18181

MossyHorns said:


> Intentional or not, his rights were still violated and you know that. That's all the proof he needs.


Good luck to him in his suit.


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## Dirty Sanchez

I tried to stay quiet. I did. But now I can't.

Situational awareness
If I go into a ghetto...I am on alert. The rules just changed. You stepped off the rez.


Catering to the minority.....should we have to put trans bathrooms in every building.. Where does that end..a bathroom for ever alphabet letter..LGBQT..ECT . What extent does a Co have to go to make everyone happy.


SO.... if the CO, messed with your stuff on tribal land....wow ..wrong. really wrong.

But..you stepped into a completely foreign situation from you regulations. Does any one really think that the CO has to treat each "stop" knowing every law in the world. What if it was the the German ambassador from Lethal Weapon with full diplomatic immunity. Bait barrel and a pile of Krugerrands. Is she supposed to know what that is. Is she required to understand diplomatic immunity

I hate authority. Not a big cop fan in general...but come on. 

How entitled and narcissistic to think that this CO needs to cater to the 1percent. Heck last week people were going to snitch on neighbors for corn. Now they want to fry the CO...for catching a violation which would apply for 99 percent of the MI hunters.

Get over it.

Be happy you are one of the 1 percent

First world problems really suck don't they.

Thank the lady for actually trying to do her job

If one bait breaks your bank...you should not be hunting.

If you only have 1 or 2 bait stations...you ain't that serious about bear hunting.

She took the camera.....every time I watch Northwoods law..they take the camera or card. 

God bless
Roll tide.


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## Jiw275

Biggbear , good luck. 

There is no excuse for the poor customer service from the MDNR.

I expect the problem with an unmarked barrel on public land, legally owned by a Native American, will continue.


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## Shoeman

How in hell was she to know your status?


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## LGB

Biggbear said:


> I would have left a note without taking anything. Or better yet I would have come back during season to catch the violator hunting over the illegal bait, thereby adding to the list of violations. We are not going to agree on this. And that's fine. It's all fun and games until it's your property that was taken, and your hunt that's impacted when you're doing nothing wrong. If anything like this ever happens to you, maybe you'll be able to see my side of the equation a little clearer.





Jiw275 said:


> Biggbear , good luck.
> 
> There is no excuse for the poor customer service from the MDNR.
> 
> I expect the problem with an unmarked barrel on public land, legally owned by a Native American, will continue.


Happens every year. The COs aren't happy about it either.


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## pgpn123

Dirty Sanchez said:


> I tried to stay quiet. I did. But now I can't.
> 
> Situational awareness
> If I go into a ghetto...I am on alert. The rules just changed. You stepped off the rez.
> 
> 
> Catering to the minority.....should we have to put trans bathrooms in every building.. Where does that end..a bathroom for ever alphabet letter..LGBQT..ECT . What extent does a Co have to go to make everyone happy.
> 
> 
> SO.... if the CO, messed with your stuff on tribal land....wow ..wrong. really wrong.
> 
> But..you stepped into a completely foreign situation from you regulations. Does any one really think that the CO has to treat each "stop" knowing every law in the world. What if it was the the German ambassador from Lethal Weapon with full diplomatic immunity. Bait barrel and a pile of Krugerrands. Is she supposed to know what that.
> 
> I hate authority. Not a big cop fan in general...but come on.
> 
> How entitled and narcissistic to think that this CO needs to cater to the 1percent. Heck last week people were going to snitch on neighbors for corn. Now they want to fry the CO...for catching a violation which would apply for 99 percent of the MI hunters.
> 
> Get over it.
> 
> Be happy you are one of the 1 percent
> 
> First world problems really suck don't they.
> 
> Thank the lady for actually trying to do her job
> 
> If one bait breaks your bank...you should not be hunting.
> 
> If you only have 1 or 2 bait stations...you ain't that serious about bear hunting.
> 
> She took the camera.....every time I watch Northwoods law..they take the camera or card.
> 
> God bless
> Roll tide.


this was good until the end...eff Roll tide, Go Blue! lol


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## Nostromo

MossyHorns said:


> That's not entirely true. She violated the rights of a tribal hunter. If the CO dosen't resolve the situation quickly, she may have to deal with the BIA.





MossyHorns said:


> Intentional or not, his rights were still violated and you know that. That's all the proof he needs.


You can cut the sense of entitlement with a knife. lol


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## MossyHorns

Nostromo said:


> You can cut the sense of entitlement with a knife. lol


Did I post anything that's not true? They have their own hunting laws and he was legal to do what he did.


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## Nostromo

MossyHorns said:


> Did I post anything that's not true? They have their own hunting laws and he was legal to do what he did.


Like I said...


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## bearhunter2

never new tribe members had difference rules that they can put out barrels and we cannot, i took it everybody that's hunts state land could not use a barrel.


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## sureshot006

Dirty Sanchez said:


> No way I am leaving my DL number etched in a tree.
> 
> The last time that someone stole my identity.....
> 
> He returned it 3 days, shook my hand and "I'm sorry...you poor bastard."


Was it his panties you wiped with?


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## Night Moves

Just in case any of you are still backing the DNR on this injustice, keep in mind that they did not even rectify the problem promptly and even after her day off, still no resolution. They are sitting on their thumbs and could give a rip about his property that they illegally stole. They are probably trying to figure out a way to lie their way out of this one. At this point, I'll be surprised if he gets his stolen property back at all. Pathetic. 

These baiting laws are all chickensht anyway. How many times have the baiting laws changed in the last decade? I couldn't even venture a guess. Its just a form of state sponsored hunter harassment.


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## Dirty Sanchez

sureshot006 said:


> Was it his panties you wiped with?


Sometimes you bring quarters to the laundry mat. Some times you gotta earn them. 20$ is 20$.


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## Nostromo

Night Moves said:


> Just in case any of you are still backing the DNR on this injustice, keep in mind that they did not even rectify the problem promptly and even after her day off, still no resolution.


This appears to be an example of the "Karen" phenomenon.


Night Moves said:


> They are sitting on their thumbs and could give a rip about his property that they illegally stole. They are probably trying to figure out a way to lie their way out of this one. At this point, I'll be surprised if he gets his stolen property back at all. Pathetic.


Surprisingly enough. Law Enforcement as a general rule, does not immediately halt an investigation because the subject of said investigation professes innocence. It would be bad for business so to speak.


Night Moves said:


> These baiting laws are all chickensht anyway. How many times have the baiting laws changed in the last decade? I couldn't even venture a guess. Its just a form of state sponsored hunter harassment.


Ah, this must be the original point here. Well yeah, it is kind of inconvenient to have to annually check the rules and regulations. Just because the NRC insists on trying out the suggestions of the sporting community or worse because our knowledge of game management has increased.
If only they were published and free for all.

Hopefully. Bigbear will get his camera back soon.


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## RoosterCogburn

Biggbear said:


> So I went to check the bait I had on Stateland. I get close and think Awesome the barrel has been hit! I get closer and notice the lid is off. I look over and my camera is gone and there is a business card in a zip lock on the tree. The card says to call the CO "there is a minor problem, no barrels on stateland this year". I was soooo mad. I'm hunting on a tribe tag. Barrels are legal for us, and we don't have the stupid 1" hole rule. So rather than just leaving a note to contact her, she took my camera.
> 
> I called her, no answer, no return call. Call the Supervisor, and tell him I want my camera back, that I was 100% legal and that she had no right to take my camera. He asked how she was supposed to know I was a tribal hunter. The Odawa Reservation is only 20 minutes from here, there are many tribal hunters in this area. He tells me this is her day off and I can call on tuesday to pick up my camera in Gaylord. I go home tomorrow so I won't be getting my property any time soon.
> 
> So my camera is gone, and she dumped my bait. Opening day is in 3 days. Tribe members can be checked by State CO'S. The thought of that now worries me if they don't even know the rules that are in the Consent Decree.
> 
> This isn't an area Tribe members aren't allowed to hunt. If the DNR is going to be able to check Tribe hunters they should be trained on the differences between the State laws and the Tribes rules.
> 
> I used to put my Tribe license number on the barrel and that I was a Tribe member. That led to other hunters pouring kerosene over my baits. So I don't do that any more. Now when I don't do it, I have to deal with incompetent CO'S who don't consider they work in an area where it's legal for Tribal hunters.
> 
> I've never had a bad experience with the DNR, always positive. But taking my camera when I was hunting legally, and then the Sgt. just making excuses just frosts my cupcakes.


It seems you feel you have the need to use any means or methods necessary anywhere in the state and expect to obtain special treatment and immediate response for your troubles. Many suggestions here (phone number to tribal authority and internally connected by them to you on the Cam, barrel or tree) could have prevented all of this from the get go. Try and consider your ancestors never had the advantages you now have (trail cams, sugary or easy to come by bait, high powered rifles with scopes, ATVs, pickups, camo clothing, gas or oil heat, electricity etc. Same goes for gill nets, boats with motors, shotgun shells. Maybe you should try the old ways more and be satisfied and thankful for what you have and can do. Tribes fought tribes since your peoples populated this land and yours would have been no match for the fiercest (sioux, cheyenne, crow, blackfeet, commanche etc.) Europeans were a tribe and stronger than yours but did not exterminate yours as other weak tribes around the world have. You have it better than many others. Move on sir


----------



## Chessieman

"Ah, this must be the original point here. Well yeah, it is kind of inconvenient to have to annually check the rules and regulations. Just because the NRC insists on trying out the suggestions of the sporting community or worse because our knowledge of game management has increased.
If only they were published and free for all. "

Yea, I heard that next year you will *not be* able to bait in the lower!


----------



## Nostromo

RoosterCogburn said:


> It seems you feel you have the need to use any means or methods necessary anywhere in the state and expect to obtain special treatment and immediate response for your troubles. Many suggestions here (phone number to tribal authority and internally connected by them to you on the Cam, barrel or tree) could have prevented all of this from the get go. Try and consider your ancestors never had the advantages you now have (trail cams, sugary or easy to come by bait, high powered rifles with scopes, ATVs, pickups, camo clothing, gas or oil heat, electricity etc. Same goes for gill nets, boats with motors, shotgun shells. Maybe you should try the old ways more and be satisfied and thankful for what you have and can do. Tribes fought tribes since your peoples populated this land and yours would have been no match for the fiercest (sioux, cheyenne, crow, blackfeet, commanche etc.) Europeans were a tribe and stronger than yours but did not exterminate yours as other weak tribes around the world have. You have it better than many others. Move on sir


Where is Pescadero when you need him? lol

We all enjoy the blessings of technical advancement. And yes, Bigbear could have taken steps to prevent this. But, nothing worth doing is without risk.

However, the Chippewa were more than a match for the Sioux. Not only did they drive the Sioux from the Great Lakes Region. They fought the last battle of the "Indian Wars" and won. They have honored the treaty they signed and we are called to do the same. Like I said before. This is all a misunderstanding. It will be sorted out in due time.


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## Biggbear

MossyHorns said:


> View attachment 852079
> 
> 
> 
> This is awesome!! I almost lost my coffee. Thank you for helping me lighten up a little about the whole thing!


----------



## jjlrrw

Any update from the CO?


----------



## Biggbear

Wow did this thread ever go places I never would have guessed. Interesting to say the least.

I talked to the COs Sgt last night, he called after being contacted by the Lt. Turns out the CO is on vacation and they have been unable to contact her either. In short the Sgt has read her report, and from the sounds of what she wrote (he has not confirmed his thoughts at this time) she was under the assumption I was a State hunter as I figured.

The process they have to go through when seizing a camera is to get a warrant to look at the SD card to attempt to identify whose the perpetrator is. They do this because as I said in this thread, people who are truly in violation never call back to retrieve their camera. So they get a warrant to look at the camera to try and identify the owner (violator). While that warrant process is underway the camera is locked up in a "lock box" (his words not mine). The problem is the CO is on vacation, and they don't know where she locked it up to give it back to me.

The Sgt has also been in touch with the Sault Tribe Law Enforcement Division to discuss how to keep this from happening again. I thought that was great. When I receive my bear tag there is a letter from the Sault Tribe Chief of Police (our COs are Tribe LEOs as well). It's a congratulations on your tag letter, along with a copy of the bear hunting rules for the Tribe. My suggestion for the Sgt was that perhaps a recommendation from the Chief could be included in that letter to contact the local State CO if hunting off the Res with a description or the GPS coordinates of where we are baiting. I still don't believe in putting anything on the barrel that identifies that we are Tribe members based on my previous experience.

The Sgt also told me they actually have very few interactions with Tribe hunters/fisherman in the area I hunt. More so in the U.P. but few in the northern lower. He said if he had found my bait he would have likely jumped to the same conclusion, that I was a State hunter. He and the Lt. have discussed how to work that fine line between making assumptions, and giving someone too much of the benefit of the doubt. After talking to the Sgt I can see where that is a tough nut to crack.

The Sgt was very understanding, apologized profusely, and is doing everything he can from both the DNRs side and working together with the tribe to try to minimize these possibilities in the future. I was very happy to find out he did not just take the perspective that this was my fault for not putting something on my bait to ID myself as a Tribe member. When I told him of my past experience, he relayed a couple incidents from his experience that confirm that likely isnt a good idea. I was also very happy to hear he is looking for solutions, to a tricky situation. Is there a perfect solution, maybe not but at least the State and Tribe are trying to do the best for all involved.

Will I get my camera back, I'm sure I will at some point. For the moment I'm kind of caught in a comedy of errors, lock boxes, vacations, never expecting me to call back, etc. As for my hunt, due to Smitty's generosity I have a great chance at whacking a bear.

So this situation has been very educational, I learned some things about the DNR, not only how they operate but why. Do I think this CO handled all of this appropriately, no I still don't. But that's just my opinion. If I had to do that job for a day perhaps my perspective would change. At least now I understand why she took the actions she did. This situation also highlighted to the DNR that a gap exists that needs to be worked on. Perhaps this will get better for both sides of the equation.

I also learned alot about the people on this site. Some of the comments on this thread were real eye openers. I personally know only a small handful of people on this site, yet some of the comments were personal enough that to be accurate the person replying would have to know me well to have their comments be accurate. In the future, before I type out a reply, especially if it's negative I'll be remembering I don't know the person on the other end. I only know how I interpreted what they wrote. Communication is a two way street, the message sent and the message received. Just because I interpret something does not mean the person who wrote it meant it that way. And because I don't know them personally, I'm basing my interpretation on my biases and view points, not theirs.

Season started in the U.P. today, good luck to all of you, hope you whack a monster.


----------



## LGB

Biggbear said:


> Wow did this thread ever go places I never would have guessed. Interesting to say the least.
> 
> I talked to the COs Sgt last night, he called after being contacted by the Lt. Turns out the CO is on vacation and they have been unable to contact her either. In short the Sgt has read her report, and from the sounds of what she wrote (he has not confirmed his thoughts at this time) she was under the assumption I was a State hunter as I figured.
> 
> The process they have to go through when seizing a camera is to get a warrant to look at the SD card to attempt to identify whose the perpetrator is. They do this because as I said in this thread, people who are truly in violation never call back to retrieve their camera. So they get a warrant to look at the camera to try and identify the owner (violator). While that warrant process is underway the camera is locked up in a "lock box" (his words not mine). The problem is the CO is on vacation, and they don't know where she locked it up to give it back to me.
> 
> The Sgt has also been in touch with the Sault Tribe Law Enforcement Division to discuss how to keep this from happening again. I thought that was great. When I receive my bear tag there is a letter from the Sault Tribe Chief of Police (our COs are Tribe LEOs as well). It's a congratulations on your tag letter, along with a copy of the bear hunting rules for the Tribe. My suggestion for the Sgt was that perhaps a recommendation from the Chief could be included in that letter to contact the local State CO if hunting off the Res with a description or the GPS coordinates of where we are baiting. I still don't believe in putting anything on the barrel that identifies that we are Tribe members based on my previous experience.
> 
> The Sgt also told me they actually have very few interactions with Tribe hunters/fisherman in the area I hunt. More so in the U.P. but few in the northern lower. He said if he had found my bait he would have likely jumped to the same conclusion, that I was a State hunter. He and the Lt. have discussed how to work that fine line between making assumptions, and giving someone too much of the benefit of the doubt. After talking to the Sgt I can see where that is a tough nut to crack.
> 
> The Sgt was very understanding, apologized profusely, and is doing everything he can from both the DNRs side and working together with the tribe to try to minimize these possibilities in the future. I was very happy to find out he did not just take the perspective that this was my fault for not putting something on my bait to ID myself as a Tribe member. When I told him of my past experience, he relayed a couple incidents from his experience that confirm that likely isnt a good idea. I was also very happy to hear he is looking for solutions, to a tricky situation. Is there a perfect solution, maybe not but at least the State and Tribe are trying to do the best for all involved.
> 
> Will I get my camera back, I'm sure I will at some point. For the moment I'm kind of caught in a comedy of errors, lock boxes, vacations, never expecting me to call back, etc. As for my hunt, due to Smitty's generosity I have a great chance at whacking a bear.
> 
> So this situation has been very educational, I learned some things about the DNR, not only how they operate but why. Do I think this CO handled all of this appropriately, no I still don't. But that's just my opinion. If I had to do that job for a day perhaps my perspective would change. At least now I understand why she took the actions she did. This situation also highlighted to the DNR that a gap exists that needs to be worked on. Perhaps this will get better for both sides of the equation.
> 
> I also learned alot about the people on this site. Some of the comments on this thread were real eye openers. I personally know only a small handful of people on this site, yet some of the comments were personal enough that to be accurate the person replying would have to know me well to have their comments be accurate. In the future, before I type out a reply, especially if it's negative I'll be remembering I don't know the person on the other end. I only know how I interpreted what they wrote. Communication is a two way street, the message sent and the message received. Just because I interpret something does not mean the person who wrote it meant it that way. And because I don't know them personally, I'm basing my interpretation on my biases and view points, not theirs.
> 
> Season started in the U.P. today, good luck to all of you, hope you whack a monster.


Great news all in all. Hope they get it worked out. My buddy got a bear this morning up west of Rapid River. Big Sow 233 lbs dressed. He's happy. 84 years old so may be his last hunt. Who knows.


----------



## Night Moves

Lock box LOL

I bet it's in her truck or anywhere but a lockbox. 

They should have gotten a warrent before they stole your property.


----------



## LGB

Night Moves said:


> Lock box LOL
> 
> I bet it's in her truck or anywhere but a lockbox.
> 
> They should have gotten a warrent before they stole your property.


They do secure evidence in State Police locker. That's a fact. Can't speak for game cams during a CO confiscation. Gotta believe it's the same process tho.


----------



## bluealaskan

Night Moves said:


> Lock box LOL
> 
> I bet it's in her truck or anywhere but a lockbox.
> 
> They should have gotten a warrent before they stole your property.


Nice that you know everything. This has been a learning experience for many. Seems to be a decent outcome and Biggbear seems pretty satisfied. Why keep stirring the pot. Good luck Biggbear on your upcoming hunt., keep us informed.


----------



## sparky18181

Biggbear said:


> Wow did this thread ever go places I never would have guessed. Interesting to say the least.
> 
> I talked to the COs Sgt last night, he called after being contacted by the Lt. Turns out the CO is on vacation and they have been unable to contact her either. In short the Sgt has read her report, and from the sounds of what she wrote (he has not confirmed his thoughts at this time) she was under the assumption I was a State hunter as I figured.
> 
> The process they have to go through when seizing a camera is to get a warrant to look at the SD card to attempt to identify whose the perpetrator is. They do this because as I said in this thread, people who are truly in violation never call back to retrieve their camera. So they get a warrant to look at the camera to try and identify the owner (violator). While that warrant process is underway the camera is locked up in a "lock box" (his words not mine). The problem is the CO is on vacation, and they don't know where she locked it up to give it back to me.
> 
> The Sgt has also been in touch with the Sault Tribe Law Enforcement Division to discuss how to keep this from happening again. I thought that was great. When I receive my bear tag there is a letter from the Sault Tribe Chief of Police (our COs are Tribe LEOs as well). It's a congratulations on your tag letter, along with a copy of the bear hunting rules for the Tribe. My suggestion for the Sgt was that perhaps a recommendation from the Chief could be included in that letter to contact the local State CO if hunting off the Res with a description or the GPS coordinates of where we are baiting. I still don't believe in putting anything on the barrel that identifies that we are Tribe members based on my previous experience.
> 
> The Sgt also told me they actually have very few interactions with Tribe hunters/fisherman in the area I hunt. More so in the U.P. but few in the northern lower. He said if he had found my bait he would have likely jumped to the same conclusion, that I was a State hunter. He and the Lt. have discussed how to work that fine line between making assumptions, and giving someone too much of the benefit of the doubt. After talking to the Sgt I can see where that is a tough nut to crack.
> 
> The Sgt was very understanding, apologized profusely, and is doing everything he can from both the DNRs side and working together with the tribe to try to minimize these possibilities in the future. I was very happy to find out he did not just take the perspective that this was my fault for not putting something on my bait to ID myself as a Tribe member. When I told him of my past experience, he relayed a couple incidents from his experience that confirm that likely isnt a good idea. I was also very happy to hear he is looking for solutions, to a tricky situation. Is there a perfect solution, maybe not but at least the State and Tribe are trying to do the best for all involved.
> 
> Will I get my camera back, I'm sure I will at some point. For the moment I'm kind of caught in a comedy of errors, lock boxes, vacations, never expecting me to call back, etc. As for my hunt, due to Smitty's generosity I have a great chance at whacking a bear.
> 
> So this situation has been very educational, I learned some things about the DNR, not only how they operate but why. Do I think this CO handled all of this appropriately, no I still don't. But that's just my opinion. If I had to do that job for a day perhaps my perspective would change. At least now I understand why she took the actions she did. This situation also highlighted to the DNR that a gap exists that needs to be worked on. Perhaps this will get better for both sides of the equation.
> 
> I also learned alot about the people on this site. Some of the comments on this thread were real eye openers. I personally know only a small handful of people on this site, yet some of the comments were personal enough that to be accurate the person replying would have to know me well to have their comments be accurate. In the future, before I type out a reply, especially if it's negative I'll be remembering I don't know the person on the other end. I only know how I interpreted what they wrote. Communication is a two way street, the message sent and the message received. Just because I interpret something does not mean the person who wrote it meant it that way. And because I don't know them personally, I'm basing my interpretation on my biases and view points, not theirs.
> 
> Season started in the U.P. today, good luck to all of you, hope you whack a monster.


Sounds like you finally got some of the information that you were looking for. Hopefully something will change to prevent this from occurring again for a tribal member on state land. Good luck on your season.


----------



## Nostromo

Waif said:


> But it's easy to be brave from a safe distance!
> 
> A C.O. raided what appeared to be an illegal set up.
> It wasn't.
> Couldn't have looked anymore like one though.
> Does that make me brave? Does writing anything do so? Everything written is saying something. So everyone must post thier names? Good luck with that.
> I've plenty of reason for anonymity. And it is for participating on this site describing my activities. Not someone uptight cause folks aren't brave(s) enough to put info out there to confirm what they are participating in.
> I won't post examples of employers considering anything online as work character related. Like hunting. Or what the sticker on an employees vehicle elicited. Things I don't agree are an employers business .
> But it goes beyond that.
> 
> By the way , interesting choice your use of brave on this thread.
> [EuroAmerican stereotype for Native American warriors Brave]


If Waif doesn't think it's a good idea. I don't think it's a good idea.


----------



## Bucman

Tracker01 said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


So a Tribal member is eligible for 2 tags in a year? Is that correct?


----------



## Tracker01

Bucman said:


> So a Tribal member is eligible for 2 tags in a year? Is that correct?


My understanding is that they can put into the state drawings and their tribal permits.


----------



## Biggbear

DEDGOOSE said:


> Off topic question,can a final member draw a tribal state tag same year?


Yes, that is possible. We have a lottery system too, but the number of people applying in certain zones makes the likelihood of drawing a tag relatively high. Personally I don't agree with it, I think it should be one or the other in a given year. Next year I will have enough points with the State to draw 2nd hunt Amasa. I will not put in for a Tribe tag next year.


----------



## Bucman

Biggbear said:


> Yes, that is possible. We have a lottery system too, but the number of people applying in certain zones makes the likelihood of drawing a tag relatively high. Personally I don't agree with it, I think it should be one or the other in a given year. Next year I will have enough points with the State to draw 2nd hunt Amasa. I will not put in for a Tribe tag next year.


Thank BB for the response. Also thank you for being sensible about the situation. Sorry for my ignorance of the tribal regs and wish you luck this season.


----------



## Night Moves

R-boat said:


> My point is if you're brave enough to say something, don't hide behind anonymity.


I've had these brave people you talk about attack my business behind my back for things I posted on the internet back when I used a well know screen name. Of course they would never have guts enough to have a face to face with me. Not very brave at all it seems.


----------



## amon

Dirty Sanchez said:


> I tried to stay quiet. I did. But now I can't.
> 
> Situational awareness
> If I go into a ghetto...I am on alert. The rules just changed. You stepped off the rez.
> 
> 
> Catering to the minority.....should we have to put trans bathrooms in every building.. Where does that end..a bathroom for ever alphabet letter..LGBQT..ECT . What extent does a Co have to go to make everyone happy.
> 
> 
> SO.... if the CO, messed with your stuff on tribal land....wow ..wrong. really wrong.
> 
> But..you stepped into a completely foreign situation from you regulations. Does any one really think that the CO has to treat each "stop" knowing every law in the world. What if it was the the German ambassador from Lethal Weapon with full diplomatic immunity. Bait barrel and a pile of Krugerrands. Is she supposed to know what that is. Is she required to understand diplomatic immunity
> 
> I hate authority. Not a big cop fan in general...but come on.
> 
> How entitled and narcissistic to think that this CO needs to cater to the 1percent. Heck last week people were going to snitch on neighbors for corn. Now they want to fry the CO...for catching a violation which would apply for 99 percent of the MI hunters.
> 
> Get over it.
> 
> Be happy you are one of the 1 percent
> 
> First world problems really suck don't they.
> 
> Thank the lady for actually trying to do her job
> 
> If one bait breaks your bank...you should not be hunting.
> 
> If you only have 1 or 2 bait stations...you ain't that serious about bear hunting.
> 
> She took the camera.....every time I watch Northwoods law..they take the camera or card.
> 
> God bless
> Roll tide.


What CO did was objectively wrong, because his setup was legal. Yet Bigbear seemed mostly upset with how it was handled (not returning calls, etc.) vs what actually happened. I'd say that's fair, but you're entitled to your opinion.

However, saying racially charged things like "stepping off the rez" and comparing him to mentally ill transgender activists might be cool and funny in Alabama, but we tend to look down on stuff like that around here.


----------



## ArrowFlinger

Dirty Sanchez said:


> I tried to stay quiet. I did. But now I can't.
> 
> Situational awareness
> If I go into a ghetto...I am on alert. The rules just changed. You stepped off the rez.
> 
> 
> Catering to the minority.....should we have to put trans bathrooms in every building.. Where does that end..a bathroom for ever alphabet letter..LGBQT..ECT . What extent does a Co have to go to make everyone happy.
> 
> 
> SO.... if the CO, messed with your stuff on tribal land....wow ..wrong. really wrong.
> 
> But..you stepped into a completely foreign situation from you regulations. Does any one really think that the CO has to treat each "stop" knowing every law in the world. What if it was the the German ambassador from Lethal Weapon with full diplomatic immunity. Bait barrel and a pile of Krugerrands. Is she supposed to know what that is. Is she required to understand diplomatic immunity
> 
> I hate authority. Not a big cop fan in general...but come on.
> 
> How entitled and narcissistic to think that this CO needs to cater to the 1percent. Heck last week people were going to snitch on neighbors for corn. Now they want to fry the CO...for catching a violation which would apply for 99 percent of the MI hunters.
> 
> Get over it.
> 
> Be happy you are one of the 1 percent
> 
> First world problems really suck don't they.
> 
> Thank the lady for actually trying to do her job
> 
> If one bait breaks your bank...you should not be hunting.
> 
> If you only have 1 or 2 bait stations...you ain't that serious about bear hunting.
> 
> She took the camera.....every time I watch Northwoods law..they take the camera or card.
> 
> God bless
> Roll tide.


I was going to put a BIG like on this one, because you are spot on with what is wrong with todays society, until those last 2 words


----------



## Nostromo

amon said:


> What CO did was objectively wrong, because his setup was legal. Yet Bigbear seemed mostly upset with how it was handled (not returning calls, etc.) vs what actually happened. I'd say that's fair, but you're entitled to your opinion.
> 
> However, saying racially charged things like "stepping off the rez"


Well now I'm offended. The CO is conducting an investigation. Which is what we pay her for. Keep your hate speech to yourself next time.


----------



## Dirty Sanchez

amon said:


> What CO did was objectively wrong, because his setup was legal. Yet Bigbear seemed mostly upset with how it was handled (not returning calls, etc.) vs what actually happened. I'd say that's fair, but you're entitled to your opinion.
> 
> However, saying racially charged things like "stepping off the rez" and comparing him to mentally ill transgender activists might be cool and funny in Alabama, but we tend to look down on stuff like that around here.


Anti native sediment was not my intention. The Rez is common nomenclature. I am 1/8 indian.
Secondly..never meant a direct comparison to trans ..it was a societal compassion/analogy.

And..I know, ya'll look down on a lot that we look up to. And up to alot we look down on. Thank you for the compliment.


----------



## amon

Nostromo said:


> Well now I'm offended. The CO is conducting an investigation. Which is what we pay her for. Keep your hate speech to yourself next time.


Hate speech towards who, they guy talking about ghettos and stepping off the rez?
We pay COs to conduct investigations, but when they seize equipment, it's only fair that we ask for it back, and receive it in a timely manner. It's black and white.


----------



## Waif

C.O. could be tasked with working with B-Bear and others to provide recommendations for how to avoid the same occurrence in the future. And the issue not be pigeon holed in order to have a change in next years regulations.
Tribal and state networking has to occur at a live functional level for such issues to get anything done in a timely fashion. That is not telling each other what to do. It is addressing what is wrong ; and how do we fix it. AT GROUND LEVEL! By those in the field from both parties.

I'd also have suggested that with no crime committed the evidence is moot. And please ship the camera back pronto as an active hunt related activity has been molested and delayed enough.


----------



## amon

Dirty Sanchez said:


> Anti native sediment was not my intention. The Rez is common nomenclature. I am 1/8 indian.
> Secondly..never meant a direct comparison to trans ..it was a societal compassion/analogy.
> 
> And..I know, ya'll look down on a lot that we look up to. And up to alot we look down on. Thank you for the compliment.


Wouldn't you be upset if a CO, say, wrongly siezed your favorite rifle and told you to pick it up hundreds of miles away? Didn't return your calls, etc?
Yes/no


----------

