# UP hunting.. horrible or just me?



## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

I was up in Iron county for 2 weeks. When we got up there on November 2 there was snow on the ground and scrapes everywhere. The next day the warm up began. The scrapes that I seen were not hit again but a few new ones popped up. Our cameras showed quite a few bucks but almost all were at night. From what I seen was a lack of does for us. While there was a few, I believe a few doe groups were closer and on some private. That area had a ton of mature trees uprooted from a wind storm in the summer. I should’ve hung a set closer to this area. I also believe there is some poaching go on in our area. Didn’t hunt one of my spots because of 3 skeletons right at my parking spot. We had a guy leave camp early but he hunts the same spot every day and every year.


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## Millennial Ben (Jan 12, 2019)

You can't lump the entire UP together. Every year there are reports of the herd being up and other reports of the herd being down. Depending on where you are in the UP, the hunting can be really good and other areas it is very poor. Western part of the UP seem to be having great years while the eastern part seem to be in a tough position. Again, I lumped the entire western part together, but as I mentioned it varies by region across the entire UP. Even 20 miles can make a difference between the hunting from my experience.

I just got back from hunting the first 2 days of opener in the UP in Mackinac County. I don't bait and haven't hunted over bait in 6 years. Not against bait, I just like hunting naturally. Every year I go up a day or 2 early to scout all my areas and figure out where the hot sign is and hang/hunt where that sign is. Well it was no different this year. I spent 1.5 days scouting and checking trail camera that are on runs or pinch points in areas that typically have great sign and came up with no avail. Some areas didn't even have tracks, which historically these areas have always held a few deer. I was shocked at the little amount of sign - I dove into some new areas I wanted to check out and got more of the same. It was pretty disappointing. I ended up only hunting my last day up there and seen a doe. I wasn't going to even setup until I found hot sign and seen the doe sneak hunting through the woods as I was scouting/hunting. 

Again it all varies by region but from what I can tell from the area I have hunted since I was a little boy this is one of the worse years I have seen. I hope thats not the case for the rest of you hunters up there, but I won't be going back this rifle season - possibly later on if we can get a good migration and shoot a buck thats been living up north. Good luck to all up there.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Deer numbers have never recovered from the highs of of the early 90s or the early 2,000s rebound if that is what you are expecting. I’m in DMU 249 and we are seeing all day movement everyday so far. We participate in the UP Deer Camp Survey. 3 of us have recorded over 100 sightings in the first two days which equaled our season total 3 years ago. Everyone has had multiple opportunities at bucks everyday so far.

This morning I passed a yearling fork and a 2-1/2 year old 7 split brow tine 7pt a couple of times. Last deer sighted was 11:20 when I came in since the wind changed directions.

Yesterday my daughter and her husband left in the morning. I got to my blind by 1:20 which is late. I had deer within sight from the time I got there until the time I left with the exception of less than a half hour total. I passed 3 yearling bucks.

I will also say I hunt a highly managed property with thousands of hours of habitat improvements. The harder I work on habitat improvements the luckier I get.


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## greense1 (Sep 20, 2012)

Cork Dust said:


> What part of the UP are you hunting?


Our camp is on forest rd 8800. We hunt mainly on the east shore of lake Gogebic and around our camp. Just not seeing anything and even the sign is sparse compared to normal. Lots of wolf tracks which I suspect could be the culprit. Put on a lot of miles in the area trying to find sign and it’s hard to come by.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

greense1 said:


> Our camp is on forest rd 8800. We hunt mainly on the east shore of lake Gogebic and around our camp. Just not seeing anything and even the sign is sparse compared to normal. Lots of wolf tracks which I suspect could be the culprit. Put on a lot of miles in the area trying to find sign and it’s hard to come by.


This year I didn’t hear wolves or see any tracks. I did see yote tracks which I’ll take all day over wolves.


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## ottertrapper (Jan 6, 2006)

It’s called their locked down with does. And no way no how is two days of youth killing all the big bucks. My son hunts in youth no bait and he’s never even seen a big buck. People love to blame that hunt though


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

alfred_in_cedar said:


> From some of the other threads I've seen I guess it's just me...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Yup, just you.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

alfred_in_cedar said:


> You are right but you'd be foolish to give up a good stand after 3 days.This is only day four of a long season from my observation at least in this section of the UP there's not even any shooting going on. * I'm getting the same storyfrom Munising to Marquette to big Bay..*
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Find new friends.


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## trucker3573 (Aug 29, 2010)

alfred_in_cedar said:


> You are right but you'd be foolish to give up a good stand after 3 days.This is only day four of a long season from my observation at least in this section of the UP there's not even any shooting going on. I'm getting the same storyfrom Munising to Marquette to big Bay..
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Sorry but I have to agree with who you quoted. Good spot and haven't seen anything in three days shouldn't be used in the same sentence. A particular spot may not be good every year. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## greense1 (Sep 20, 2012)

U of M Fan said:


> This year I didn’t hear wolves or see any tracks. I did see yote tracks which I’ll take all day over wolves.


Yeah we didn’t have any wolf sign until about a week or so ago and I saw one last night and the two tracks are loaded with fresh tracks. Just a really strange year for us. Everything is suddenly gone. I’m sure it will turn but we won’t be here to see it lol. We’ve just never seen a disappearing act like this before by even the does.


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

Weather was horrid first day..not much better second day...we still have 4 bucks hanging all 3.5 plus...all State and federal land. We make trips up here 10 times a year to put out cams and look for deer. The UP is a gold mine for those who want to work for it. I have seen the deer herd go from literally seeing dozens every sit and shooting 4 bucks every year up here to seeing a handful a day BUT the herd is in good shape with a good balance and a lot of bigg bucks that make up the herd. My cam pics this morning showed my target 5.5 yr old 8 along with a 3.5 yr old 10 pt and a 3.5 yr old 8 between 7am and 1230. Sitting waiting for him to come back thru


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)




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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Wow, now that is a skill, to be able to age a deer accurately from a trail cam photo! I've lived here three decades and have a dual B.S. in wildlife biology and fisheries science from MSU, but I have never achieved your skill level. These deer are frozen, given ambient temps., but I sure wouldn't hang them head down to let whatever moisture mix with the bacteria liberated from gutting them to get multiplying either.


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## >WingIt< (Nov 16, 2011)

I think a lot of hunters blew their sets up by hunting them on two horrible days. Deer got educated when they came through after hours. 


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

Cork Dust said:


> Wow, now that is a skill, to be able to age a deer accurately from a trail cam photo! I've lived here three decades and have a dual B.S. in wildlife biology and fisheries science from MSU, but I have never achieved your skill level. These deer are frozen, given ambient temps., but I sure wouldn't hang them head down to let whatever moisture mix with the bacteria liberated from gutting them to get multiplying either.


Lol...neen hanging and eating deer for 40 years....thanks for the advice...and on aging deer.....yes I have a hundred pictures of him the last 2 years. Thanks for your expert opinion though


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I just added up the data from my personal observations per the UP Deer Camp Survey guidelines. 
38 does
10 bucks none older than 2-1/2
39 fawns
0 predators

Youth kill very few deer in the UP or statewide for that matter. Certainly not nearly as many as poachers do. Maybe the OP has a neighbor who has tribal tags. You do realize that legal firearms season opens at the beginning of October.


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## UPWalleyeGuy (Feb 17, 2006)

I am picky and passed a 3.5 year old on the 15th. Saw a total of 6 deer in three days, 4 of which were bucks. Numbers are down but that’s the UP, a chance at a giant makes it worthwhile.


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## UPWalleyeGuy (Feb 17, 2006)

MrFysch said:


> Weather was horrid first day..not much better second day...we still have 4 bucks hanging all 3.5 plus...all State and federal land. We make trips up here 10 times a year to put out cams and look for deer. The UP is a gold mine for those who want to work for it. I have seen the deer herd go from literally seeing dozens every sit and shooting 4 bucks every year up here to seeing a handful a day BUT the herd is in good shape with a good balance and a lot of bigg bucks that make up the herd. My cam pics this morning showed my target 5.5 yr old 8 along with a 3.5 yr old 10 pt and a 3.5 yr old 8 between 7am and 1230. Sitting waiting for him to come back thru
> View attachment 604793


is he missing a front leg?


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

No...just a picture of a picture..lol..does look like it until you zoom in


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

another viee


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## kev (Dec 6, 2007)

MrFysch said:


> View attachment 604807
> another viee


Do you guys bait? 

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Fisherman6 (Sep 1, 2009)

I haven’t been to the Yoop yet this year, but I’ve hunted it a decent amount over the past 8 years or so. I’ve killed just as many bucks up there as I have downstate over the time period with a lot less seat time. And they all would have been legal deer in the APR I hunt at home as well. All of these kills have been on the same 2 blocks of public about 15 miles apart however. But for those big 2 blocks of public I’ve probably scouted 50 other places over the years. I have also gone 6 sits without seeing deer in all diffrent locations. I love the UP and the wilderness aspect of it, my best advice is to still hunt areas when you can but overall the scout, scout, hunt method has helped me during short trips over the years. 


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## Gone Coastal (Apr 28, 2003)

MrFysch said:


> View attachment 604795


Congratulations on a super wonderful hunt. My brotherS and I used to do pretty good over in the Hiawatha near Nahma. You earned those bucks. 
As far as hanging, by the gambrel is the preferred method used by professional butchers. Good job!


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

kev said:


> Do you guys bait?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Haven't you heard that big bucks don't come to bait? :lol:


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## springIstrutfallIrut (Mar 30, 2012)

Cork Dust said:


> Wow, now that is a skill, to be able to age a deer accurately from a trail cam photo! I've lived here three decades and have a dual B.S. in wildlife biology and fisheries science from MSU, but I have never achieved your skill level. These deer are frozen, given ambient temps., but I sure wouldn't hang them head down to let whatever moisture mix with the bacteria liberated from gutting them to get multiplying either.


You eat their heads? I do apply your logic , and reverse it... I don't want anything draining to the hindquarters. Hanging by the head to me is well literally ass backwards .


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

springIstrutfallIrut said:


> You eat their heads? I do apply your logic , and reverse it... I don't want anything draining to the hindquarters. Hanging by the head to me is well literally ass backwards .


I eat their chops, brisket and rib muscles (jerky), as well as neck roasts. The hindquarters, other than the exposed section that ever home and professional butcher removes, since it is dried-out is protected via legs-down drainage, assuming you removed the bladder and the anus, thus allowing full drainage and NO liquid accumulation. The pool of liquid that head down hanging induces is just bacterial growth medium production when pooled up in the chest cavity. Bon appetit!!


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## nowaksark (Nov 10, 2009)

greense1 said:


> Our camp is on forest rd 8800. We hunt mainly on the east shore of lake Gogebic and around our camp. Just not seeing anything and even the sign is sparse compared to normal. Lots of wolf tracks which I suspect could be the culprit. Put on a lot of miles in the area trying to find sign and it’s hard to come by.


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## nowaksark (Nov 10, 2009)

We are just south of you, off Stage Coach rd. Ive hunted here for over 20 years. Hunted the 1st. 3 days and have never seen so few deer. We had sign before the 15th., now nothing! I know Sundays weather wasnt a help, but it was bad by 3 of our party!


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

I only hunt in the muzzle-loader season after all the deer are killed... but I can say that I have 1 go to place in the Garden but other than that it changes almost every year.... 

I spend most my time hunting birds and waterfowl and SCOUTING is the reason I start slow and end strong... I spend more time with my binos than my gun....


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

U of M Fan said:


> I was up in Iron county for 2 weeks. When we got up there on November 2 there was snow on the ground and scrapes everywhere. The next day the warm up began. The scrapes that I seen were not hit again but a few new ones popped up. Our cameras showed quite a few bucks but almost all were at night. From what I seen was a lack of does for us. While there was a few, I believe a few doe groups were closer and on some private. That area had a ton of mature trees uprooted from a wind storm in the summer. I should’ve hung a set closer to this area. I also believe there is some poaching go on in our area. Didn’t hunt one of my spots because of 3 skeletons right at my parking spot. We had a guy leave camp early but he hunts the same spot every day and every year.


 The skeletons may not have been from poached deer, there are a couple other options. Later October is prime time for bow hunting and legal tribal hunting had been open for quite a while. In the west end of the UP some tribes based in Wisconsin can also legally hunt.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I’m starting to think it’s the OP. I hunted a good friends property that I manage for him this afternoon. I had 3 bucks, 4 does and 2 fawns in range in and around a brassica food plot I put in for him. All is not good. I have not been able to put myself in front of an older class deer which I know are around. 

No worries since everyday is opening day in the UP.


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## onebad800 (Apr 28, 2003)

alfred_in_cedar said:


> Whether you believe it or not the youth hunt takes a lot of mature deer out of the population. I've been hunting the UP now for 30 years. This is by far the worst season. And by the way a lot of those so-called youths aren't the ones doing the shooting..
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Sorry that’s non sense the few deer that the youth do shoot doesn’t make any difference.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Deer numbers are down in my area. Very few year old deer made it through the winter. Deer check stations are way down in the U.P. Bridge count is way down too. You are not alone.


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## GATORGETTER (Jan 31, 2008)

You have to work for them. I put 815 miles on running cameras the past two weeks. They are there.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

Forest Meister said:


> The skeletons may not have been from poached deer, there are a couple other options. Later October is prime time for bow hunting and legal tribal hunting had been open for quite a while. In the west end of the UP some tribes based in Wisconsin can also legally hunt.


Could be. The parking spot is enough for one vehicle with a plowed hill of dirt about 3 foot high. A couple yards on the other side of the hill was the 3 skeletons. Looked like they were dumped there and the birds and predators cleaned them up. Not the first time we’ve seen it in the area.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

GATORGETTER said:


> View attachment 604893
> View attachment 604895
> View attachment 604897
> View attachment 604899
> ...


The buck in the final picture looks enormous! Would love to see that deer on a scale.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Couldn't imagine trying to drag that thing out. Either quarter him out or build a fire and commence to eating lol.


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## GATORGETTER (Jan 31, 2008)

That was the buck I ended up taking. It was too warm, highs in the 70’s. I let him hang overnight and immediately took him to a processor the next day. He was huge. Unfortunately nobody had a scale. My biggest U.P. buck too date.


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## Trunkslammer (May 22, 2013)

stickbow shooter said:


> Couldn't imagine trying to drag that thing out. Either quarter him out or build a fire and commence to eating lol.


Why are his legs so tiny lol. What a tank. Those backstraps have got to be YUGE!


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

GATORGETTER said:


> View attachment 604935
> View attachment 604937
> That was the buck I ended up taking. It was too warm, highs in the 70’s. I let him hang overnight and immediately took him to a processor the next day. He was huge. Unfortunately nobody had a scale. My biggest U.P. buck too date.


What a phenomenal deer!! Congrats.


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## onebad800 (Apr 28, 2003)

Nov.8 we had many cams with bucks moving daytime, and one cam had 3 bucks together?? Only rut action we saw was a spike chasing some. Heading back for the long weekend with all 3 of my boys see what happens then, we have good bucks around so hopefully things settle down


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

buckman66 said:


> Here is my take. Been hunting this land for 35 years (Southern Iron County). We had a number of good bucks on camera 11/2-11/7. Some big bucks in 70 degree temps. Everything we are taught that deer should not be on their feet let alone Big Bucks. What I think happened this year is the actual breeding was taking place then. Very early for my area. Estrus Does were ready and the Bucks had no choice. When Gun season started 7-9 days later, the majority of Does in our area were now bred. Our deer sightings were the lowest in many many years. Had I not seen the bucks on camera I would say there was no deer. The last two days 3 guys sat mornings and evenings and seen zero deer. They are not not moving. If we get cold weather they will have to eat and will come back out.
> Buck man


Pretty good analogy. I believe that to be accurate. The rut WAS earlier than 90% of the previous years I've hunted my camp. Been in this camp since the late 80s and deer sightings have been up and down for various reasons, series of severe winters, early migration, warm temps, etc. There always a legitimate reason for it. I believe you are correct. Deer are there, we just don't see them during hunting hours. Numerous scrapes, rubs, sign and night time pictures show it. I'll scratch it up to just another 2020 failure.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

We have had 3 bad winters in a row in much of the U.P. so not suprising to me that deer numbers are down.


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## CHUCK n BUCK (Apr 6, 2004)

In the blind now, drizzle rain thought could make a buck move. My Dad, uncle and brother have hunted hard since the opener and have seen about 9 deer total... oh well glad to be at deer camp in the ole north woods!


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

MrFysch said:


> I agree CD...ITS a guess on aging. I just use alot of cam pics from year to year. No accurate way to tell until they are dead. I had a big 8 that was 41/2 2 years ago that I hit as he turned when I shot. Tracked him in the snow for half mile until he crossed s river. Thought the wolves would have got him for sure. He showed up on cam this year with a massive rack but opposite side of where I hit him was all goofy...drop tine and split g2s and 3s.....he is still alive.


That is pretty common for deer with serious musculoskeletal injuries, the opposite side pedicel is altered and they grow a non[typical rack. The strangest one I ever saw was a buck shot that was missing its left leg from just above the knee joint down. That buck had a non-typical rack that was abnormal on both sides, radiating-out from the bases like a medusa that tallied 15 pts., just a mass of fingers radiating everywhere. Dennis had not seen a deer on that run for three days of full-day sits, until this buck limped by. His mentor offered his opinion on why he had not seen any deer for so long: He told him he was hunting on the "handicapped deer run"!

I have two neighbors who feed for "wildlife viewing". They have a doe with a massively developed thorax who has a badly damage clavicle. I've watched her a couple of times via binocs. It looks like the shoulder blade is malformed just at the base of the vertical ridge of bone that runs down the triangular clavicle bone about three inches above the joint. She had twin fawns this year. Its pretty impressive to see her run, but she definately can't lope or put any major weight on that left front leg.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> You throw down your scientific credentials earlier in the thread, then you assert the age on 2 deer as if you really have any clue of their actual age, and now you blame it on Ozoga? LOL - you're not doing anything to help your credibility on this topic.
> 
> Tooth age wear is a guess beginning at 2.5 years old. Even the "experts" aren't any good at it.
> 
> https://www.noble.org/news/publications/ag-news-and-views/1997/april/aging-white-tailed-deer/





gatorman841 said:


> That tooth age guessing needs to just be thrown out the window and not used. Way to many factors can break down a deers teeth besides age .


I have to respectfully disagree with you guys on the merits and accuracy of the tooth replacement and wear methodology for aging deer. Is it 100% accurate? Certainly not, but then again, neither is the Cementum Annuli method. 

It is the best and most widely used method for aging deer used by the vast majority of states throughout the country. And yes, I have reviewed the Noble study several times in the past. While I won’t come out and say that the results are unbelievable, I will say that I am somewhat skeptical of maybe the methodology or perhaps the actual level of expertise among those 34 practicing southeastern biologists. 

While I do not claim to have a degree in wildlife biology or in veterinary medicine I have consulted with those that do many, many times over the past 26 years since I became a serious student of the science. I have found the replacement and wear method to be more accurate than estimating age by either body weight or antler size/score. 

No - it is not a perfect science but there is certainly a direct correlation between a deer’s age and it’s tooth-wear. Especially when comparing tooth wear from deer in the same habitat and soil conditions, diet, etc, it is possible for someone with the proper training and experience to fairly accurately estimate age - certainly within 1 year. I agree that it does become a crap shoot beyond 7-8 years of age. 

I am still hunting so I don’t have time to contribute much here now (and I don’t want to hijack the thread) but I would welcome further discussion in the topic maybe this winter. For now, suffice it to say that I do respect your opinions, but I digress when it comes to labeling this method as “junk science”


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## Wood Tick (Oct 19, 2007)

After getting skunked in EUP camp for first time last year, things have bounced back and I took a nice 7 during archery, and my brother harvested a big 10 on the 18th this week.  We have private 140 acre camp with food plots.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

For the guys who think UP deer hunting has improved I’m happy for you. There are great pockets across the UP. 

For all the rest, you better voice your opinion prior to when the NRC votes on the proposed UP deer regulations next month. If you aren’t happy with this years numbers you certainly won’t be happy with the 2021 season numbers. Do it or don’t complain because you will be part of the problem and not the solution.


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## GATORGETTER (Jan 31, 2008)

Here’s some more pics for the guys who were interested. I included a young buck pic for reference.


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## GATORGETTER (Jan 31, 2008)




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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

How do we get the NRC to do something about winter severity? Hunters hammer does in the Banana Belt every year and the next year they seem to be able to do it again. What is the biggest difference between that part of the UP and the rest? Snow for the most part, prolonged snow. Most years the deer don't even yard up down there and if they do it is not for nearly as long as they do in most of the rest of the UP. 

Much as we hunters like to think we have a major impact on deer numbers, time and again Mother Nature has proven it is she who dictates whether numbers trend up or down, (or even crash) in the majority of UP. FM


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## UPWalleyeGuy (Feb 17, 2006)

After 5 days of season, a total of 8 deer seen, 6 bucks, 2 does by me. One 3.5 year old got the pass and the other bucks were 1.5 year olds. My dad saw another dozen or so with one 3.5 year buck getting the pass from him as well. Lots of coyotes running around, we ended up getting 4 in the area.


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## Al Uhelski (Dec 21, 2018)

All day sits for a few days in the south central UP and I connected on one of my target bucks on the 16th. Passed up at least 15 bucks before he showed out of 9 days of hunting since November 4th.


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

Congrats on a great UP buck!


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

Forest Meister said:


> How do we get the NRC to do something about winter severity? Hunters hammer does in the Banana Belt every year and the next year they seem to be able to do it again. What is the biggest difference between that part of the UP and the rest? Snow for the most part, prolonged snow. Most years the deer don't even yard up down there and if they do it is not for nearly as long as they do in most of the rest of the UP.
> 
> Much as we hunters like to think we have a major impact on deer numbers, time and again Mother Nature has proven it is she who dictates whether numbers trend up or down, (or even crash) in the majority of UP. FM


FM....as much as I wish we could change the future of the UP deer herd I don't think we can. Deer numbers are definitely down....trail cams don't lie. The reasons? I know I will get alot of disagreement but here is my thoughts. Predators are a huge factor in the UP. WOLF numbers are skyrocketing again. We watch deer numbers fall as wolf trail cam pics increase in certain areas every year. After the wolves decimate an area they move to a better hunting area with more prey. We have had 3 go to areas the last few years go from lots of deer to lots of wolves few deer. No debate on this.


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## Al Uhelski (Dec 21, 2018)

MrFysch said:


> Congrats on a great UP buck!


Thank you


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

MrFysch said:


> FM....as much as I wish we could change the future of the UP deer herd I don't think we can. Deer numbers are definitely down....trail cams don't lie. The reasons? I know I will get alot of disagreement but here is my thoughts. Predators are a huge factor in the UP. WOLF numbers are skyrocketing again. We watch deer numbers fall as wolf trail cam pics increase in certain areas every year. After the wolves decimate an area they move to a better hunting area with more prey. We have had 3 go to areas the last few years go from lots of deer to lots of wolves few deer. No debate on this.


In my area Northern Alger Southern Marquette counties, wolves aren't a problem annually. Seems they show up only every few years. This year I saw a line wolf a few times. Few others in camp saw the same wolf. The single wolf never concerns me. Even tho it suppresses deer movement, one wolf won't desimate deer populations. My area has good deer numbers, better than years past. It's the big bucks that aren't here anymore. 2.5-3.5 year olds are around but with most of the beech gone and only browse or fall bait piles, it doesn't help. The UP monster bucks of the past just don't exist anymore.


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## greense1 (Sep 20, 2012)

Just got back from 5 all day hunts on the west end. For the first time in 15 years I saw more wolves than deer while hunting(3 to 0). We had plenty of trail cam pics before the season so I think the total skunk was a perfect storm between the weather and a ton of wolf sign showing up. They just didn’t move. Many bait piles from other members of camp just left untouched for days at a time. Still a great time as always.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

greense1 said:


> Just got back from 5 all day hunts on the west end. For the first time in 15 years I saw more wolves than deer while hunting(3 to 0). We had plenty of trail cam pics before the season so I think the total skunk was a perfect storm between the weather and a ton of wolf sign showing up. They just didn’t move. Many bait piles from other members of camp just left untouched for days at a time. Still a great time as always.


I've had years like yours. Had more wolf tracks in the bait than deer. Wolves visited them daily. Been great no wolves for 3-4 years as far as packs go. This year's lack of cold and snow had a huge effect on daytime sightings for us. Plenty on cell cams at night


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## UPWalleyeGuy (Feb 17, 2006)

For everyone saying the wolves aren’t a problem IMO that is 100% false. They follow the migratory route of deer to the yards and will impact deer in your area even if you don’t see them directly in your area. The only counties where deer don’t typically migrate is Delta and Menominee. The yards are a predatory blood bath these days. Our herd age ratio up here is so jacked, it’s tough. 4.5 year olds are near death after the rut and so run down they can easily get killed. Factor in a moderate to severe winter, game over.


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## up520 (Jan 25, 2008)

Here is what I saw from the 15th till the 21st and it was strange 

I saw way more on there feet than normal both with and without horns,

Normally I see at least one shooter - but normally don't take it (0 since 2011)

While on stand I saw 0 shooters - spike or better

owl buzzed my local one afternoon and the same darn chickadee who followed me across the property (80acrs) and continued to land on my brush blinds and look at me right in the hairy eye ball the entire time. 

Still love the UP tag soup or not!!!!!!!!!!


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## LoveTheUP (Nov 18, 2015)

UPWalleyeGuy said:


> For everyone saying the wolves aren’t a problem IMO that is 100% false. They follow the migratory route of deer to the yards and will impact deer in your area even if you don’t see them directly in your area. The only counties where deer don’t typically migrate is Delta and Menominee. The yards are a predatory blood bath these days. Our herd age ratio up here is so jacked, it’s tough. 4.5 year olds are near death after the rut and so run down they can easily get killed. Factor in a moderate to severe winter, game over.




I did not rifle hunt this year, however I take vacation each year to go bowhunting in the western UP. This was the first year in about a decade I did not see a buck while in my stand. I had a few wolves on camera and very few deer. I actually only saw one doe in an entire week of sitting. My land neighbor down the road found a wolf kill on his land. It was very upsetting. Something needs to be done to control the wolf population. They don't have to be entirely killed off, but the population needs to be controlled more. Hunters aren't dumb. We are skilled woodsman. The government needs to start listening to what we are saying.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Another SE wind day. My heart really wasn’t into it but I was sitting by 3:00. 2 does and a 7pt at about 5:00. Worst sighting day of the season. Wind should be better tomorrow.


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## Trap Star (Jan 15, 2015)

My buddy just sent this from the YOOPEE.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Trap Star said:


> My buddy just sent this from the YOOPEE.
> View attachment 606847


Looks like we found were all 27 deer in the UP went


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## U.P.Grouse Chaser (Dec 27, 2018)

I tagged out in the South Central U.P. with 2- 3.5 8 points. My wife shot a 2.5 yr old 6 point . All were aged at the Norway DNR field office.







We had an exceptional acorn crop and the deer seemed to be keying in on the oak ridges. This is my 2nd year with the bait ban and i am liking it. Another thing i have in my favor is I have been burning lots of boot leather running my gsp pretty much year round.


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## NormD (Oct 21, 2002)

Hunted Dickinson county. 15th to the 19th were all day sits, 20th just the morning. Missed a 6 pointer at last light on the 15th. Didn't see a buck during the day rest of my stay. Trail cam showed all nocturnal movement. I moved a bit and did some stalking, lots of sign and many active scrapes. Was greeted most morning with a Pileated Woodpecker, several grouse and countless chickadee's. Jumped deer most mornings but didn't know what gender. Bridge count on the 21st was 1700'ish last year to 1050 this year. Nonetheless I still had a grand time at camp.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

U.P.Grouse Chaser said:


> I tagged out in the South Central U.P. with 2- 3.5 8 points. My wife shot a 2.5 yr old 6 point . All were aged at the Norway DNR field office.
> View attachment 606997
> We had an exceptional acorn crop and the deer seemed to be keying in on the oak ridges. This is my 2nd year with the bait ban and i am liking it. Another thing i have in my favor is I have been burning lots of boot leather running my gsp pretty much year round.


Didn't know central UP had any bait ban. Also nice to hear you have Oaks in your area. That seems rare in the UP. Beech trees were the norm where I hunt. Today their but a memory.


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## U.P.Grouse Chaser (Dec 27, 2018)

Yes there is a bait ban in the Cwd core area in portions of Dickinson and Menominee county 
Started last year, After they found the 1 and only cwd positive deer on a farm that neighbors Wild Thing's property


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

U.P.Grouse Chaser said:


> Yes there is a bait ban in the Cwd core area in portions of Dickinson and Menominee county
> Started last year, After they found the 1 and only cwd positive deer on a farm that neighbors Wild Thing's property


Thanks for that info. I do remember the cwd positive deer in that area. Guess I didn't remember that they put a baiting ban in effect for that an surrounding counties. Hunting natural food sources didn't improve my success in the UP this year. Hunting baited sites didn't either.


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## HuronView (Oct 18, 2014)

Just my 2c on the whole wolf discussion, and based on my observations only. 

You may have seen my post last week on the wolves that, within minutes of my buck kill, descended upon the kill spot as though I'd rung a dinner bell with my 270. Normally we see 20-30 deer per day on our property, and the day prior to the opener, I sat observation stands and validated previous years' observations. After the wolves moved into the area on the 15th, my dad and I saw no more than 5 deer per day (mostly bb's and spikes). In fact, the fresh snow that fell on the 15th bore out that wolves walked every logging road we have on our 190 ac, Houghton County property. Now, it'd been a mild fall in terms of cold and snow, and the neighbor across the road recently cut every truffula tree on his 80 acres. So there are some independent variables that could be playing into the reduced sightings.

However, I contend that wolves are like the blades of a blender.  They run all over, stir things up and scatter the deer. The smart ones (every deer other than the bucks on their own for the first time), move on out until the wolves move on. I go deer hunting to see deer, just like your guys do. Though personally, I chalk the wolves up to another challenge the UP presents to hunters. For me, it's one of the last bastions of REAL white tail hunting remaining, where we haven't created a set of habitat conditions that make deer a nuisance, and natural predation a thing of the past.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

HuronView said:


> Just my 2c on the whole wolf discussion, and based on my observations only.
> 
> You may have seen my post last week on the wolves that, within minutes of my buck kill, descended upon the kill spot as though I'd rung a dinner bell with my 270. Normally we see 20-30 deer per day on our property, and the day prior to the opener, I sat observation stands and validated previous years' observations. After the wolves moved into the area on the 15th, my dad and I saw no more than 5 deer per day (mostly bb's and spikes). In fact, the fresh snow that fell on the 15th bore out that wolves walked every logging road we have on our 190 ac, Houghton County property. Now, it'd been a mild fall in terms of cold and snow, and the neighbor across the road recently cut every truffula tree on his 80 acres. So there are some independent variables that could be playing into the reduced sightings.
> 
> However, I contend that wolves are like the blades of a blender. They run all over, stir things up and scatter the deer. The smart ones (every deer other than the bucks on their own for the first time), move on out until the wolves move on. I go deer hunting to see deer, just like your guys do. Though personally, I chalk the wolves up to another challenge the UP presents to hunters. For me, it's one of the last bastions of REAL white tail hunting remaining, where we haven't created a set of habitat conditions that make deer a nuisance, and natural predation a thing of the past.


Most of us that travel to the UP to hunt feel the same as you do. It's a tradition and one that happens on a piece of ground unlike any other in this state. I can't say its any more real in terms of whitetail hunting but has a primitiveness to it. A wild untouched primitive landscape (in most UP areas) that is not like any place else here in our state. The wolf logic is pretty similar to my experience as well where I hunt. When the wolves move in, the deer become ghosts. May head back up to muzzleload early December hoping for some "Real" UP weather.


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

The U. P. isn't just deer numbers. I scored 5 of the last 6 years up here, and if I were a better hunter it would have been 6 of 6. In all years I could count on one hand the number of deer I saw while actually hunting.

Most of those years I saw one buck, shot it, season over. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it works for me. Strictly speaking I saw 50% fewer deer this season than last year while hunting. Last year I saw a spike on opening day I couldn't get a shot at, and a six point I took on the third day. This year I only saw the eight point I shot on the third day.

The point is one doesn't need a vast number of deer sightings to get one.


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## Grizzly Adams (Oct 6, 2003)

HuronView said:


> Just my 2c on the whole wolf discussion, and based on my observations only.
> 
> You may have seen my post last week on the wolves that, within minutes of my buck kill, descended upon the kill spot as though I'd rung a dinner bell with my 270. Normally we see 20-30 deer per day on our property, and the day prior to the opener, I sat observation stands and validated previous years' observations. After the wolves moved into the area on the 15th, my dad and I saw no more than 5 deer per day (mostly bb's and spikes). In fact, the fresh snow that fell on the 15th bore out that wolves walked every logging road we have on our 190 ac, Houghton County property. Now, it'd been a mild fall in terms of cold and snow, and the neighbor across the road recently cut every truffula tree on his 80 acres. So there are some independent variables that could be playing into the reduced sightings.
> 
> However, I contend that wolves are like the blades of a blender. They run all over, stir things up and scatter the deer. The smart ones (every deer other than the bucks on their own for the first time), move on out until the wolves move on. I go deer hunting to see deer, just like your guys do. Though personally, I chalk the wolves up to another challenge the UP presents to hunters. For me, it's one of the last bastions of REAL white tail hunting remaining, where we haven't created a set of habitat conditions that make deer a nuisance, and natural predation a thing of the past.


Were you the one that posted the vid of the wolves coming in after the kill?
Cool vid if so...
Shows they are losing fear of humans pretty fast imo...


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Tilden Hunter said:


> The U. P. isn't just deer numbers. I scored 5 of the last 6 years up here, and if I were a better hunter it would have been 6 of 6. In all years I could count on one hand the number of deer I saw while actually hunting.
> 
> Most of those years I saw one buck, shot it, season over. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it works for me. Strictly speaking I saw 50% fewer deer this season than last year while hunting. Last year I saw a spike on opening day I couldn't get a shot at, and a six point I took on the third day. This year I only saw the eight point I shot on the third day.
> 
> The point is one doesn't need a vast number of deer sightings to get one.


Another thing unique to the UP. Your right, it's not for everyone. Most years past I think 5-6 deer while hunting 5-7 days 12 hours everyday in a blind was typical. Most years not killing bucks because they didn't meet the criteria. It's not for everyone.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Grizzly Adams said:


> Were you the one that posted the vid of the wolves coming in after the kill?
> Cool vid if so...
> Shows they are losing fear of humans pretty fast imo...


I think wolves in certain areas up there did that years ago. Especially during bad winters. Loggers have showed me videos they took on their phones of packs killing 5,6 and 7 deer while in packs all in one evening. Most killed never were eaten by the pack that killed them. Scavengers ended up eating them over time. The pack was never concerned about the loggers working while killing those deer.


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## onebad800 (Apr 28, 2003)

I’m surprised some locals haven’t lowered the Wolf count themselves, I know they aren’t liked by most up there. Something needs to control the numbers


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## CHUCK n BUCK (Apr 6, 2004)

Well day 6 for me and I’ve yet to see a deer. I have my Tactacam out and I have a couple does come in each night. My dad has hunted every morning and night since the opener and only seen 2 deer opening eve.... the wolves are blowing up right now as I type this not too far away... a lil spooky! My big gun will protect me though. Pulling out Thursday morning, time winding down, camp has been fun but hunting slow!


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## Grizzly Adams (Oct 6, 2003)

johnIV said:


> I think wolves in certain areas up there did that years ago. Especially during bad winters. Loggers have showed me videos they took on their phones of packs killing 5,6 and 7 deer while in packs all in one evening. Most killed never were eaten by the pack that killed them. Scavengers ended up eating them over time. The pack was never concerned about the loggers working while killing those deer.


Damn that would be hard to see & not start blazing them down...


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## HuronView (Oct 18, 2014)

Grizzly Adams said:


> Were you the one that posted the vid of the wolves coming in after the kill?
> Cool vid if so...
> Shows they are losing fear of humans pretty fast imo...


It was me. They were around the whole week--tracks on top of tracks.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

There has been plenty of local wolf management happening in the area I hunt. I'm not about to ruin my hunting camp over killing a wolf but plenty of locals are willing to kill wolves to protect their domestic pets or livestock. Even some non- locals have had enough of the "lack of wolf management" issue and are risking it. Hell, even the DNR have had it with the wolf problems but being a federal issue kinda ties hands in all areas. I'd like to see future wolf hunts again even tho chances are low of harvesting one. I think the hunt dates need to coincide with deer season to effectively kill as many wolves as possible. The last hunt was too late IMO


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## HuronView (Oct 18, 2014)

Tilden Hunter said:


> The U. P. isn't just deer numbers. I scored 5 of the last 6 years up here, and if I were a better hunter it would have been 6 of 6. In all years I could count on one hand the number of deer I saw while actually hunting.
> 
> Most of those years I saw one buck, shot it, season over. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it works for me. Strictly speaking I saw 50% fewer deer this season than last year while hunting. Last year I saw a spike on opening day I couldn't get a shot at, and a six point I took on the third day. This year I only saw the eight point I shot on the third day.
> 
> The point is one doesn't need a vast number of deer sightings to get one.


Same here in terms of your buck hunting strategy. I live in Ohio, not by choice (uncle sam wants me here). I drive 14 hours mostly to put eyes on our acreage, and I shoot what makes me happy. I do buy the combo tag, which has only worked out for me once. So, I am thrilled with a 6pt, and given that I only usually get 3ish days of in-the-seat hunting due to other demands on my time, it makes the shoot-pass decision a lot easier.


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## greense1 (Sep 20, 2012)

johnIV said:


> There has been plenty of local wolf management happening in the area I hunt. I'm not about to ruin my hunting camp over killing a wolf but plenty of locals are willing to kill wolves to protect their domestic pets or livestock. Even some non- locals have had enough of the "lack of wolf management" issue and are risking it. Hell, even the DNR have had it with the wolf problems but being a federal issue kinda ties hands in all areas. I'd like to see future wolf hunts again even tho chances are low of harvesting one. I think the hunt dates need to coincide with deer season to effectively kill as many wolves as possible. The last hunt was too late IMO


This year the wolves were no longer a federal issue. I know a few hit the dirt in our area as soon as it wasn’t a federal crime to get caught. I would expect that to continue up there as soon as more people know and as the population grows. It’s not the answer but when there’s no answer people tend to try and find one themselves.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

greense1 said:


> This year the wolves were no longer a federal issue. I know a few hit the dirt in our area as soon as it wasn’t a federal crime to get caught. I would expect that to continue up there as soon as more people know and as the population grows. It’s not the answer but when there’s no answer people tend to try and find one themselves.


Wasn't aware the protection was lifted. Maybe the DNR will do future hunts for wolves. I will definitely participate. I can also say many hit the dirt in my area as well. SSS is practiced all over the UP. Even if a hunt is in our future, the wolf problem will exist in certain areas where populations will not be properly managed. Local management will still continue to keep pets and livestock safe


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

greense1 said:


> This year the wolves were no longer a federal issue. I know a few hit the dirt in our area as soon as it wasn’t a federal crime to get caught. I would expect that to continue up there as soon as more people know and as the population grows. It’s not the answer but when there’s no answer people tend to try and find one themselves.


We have a winner!

If I were the Grand Pupa of Bunny Hugger Inc. I would grab that post and others like it and present them to the most sympathetic federal judge my very well paid attorneys could find. The sole purpose of same would be to provide corroborating evidence that even though the northern Great Lake States individual management plans may be well meaning, wolf populations are still at risk of being decimated if they are no longer accorded federal protected.

IMO, the best course of action at this time is to sit quietly in the blind until this thing shakes out and wolf management officially gets transferred to the states, in January I believe, so as not to unwittingly provide ammo to the rabid opposition. FM


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Forest Meister said:


> We have a winner!
> 
> If I were the Grand Pupa of Bunny Hugger Inc. I would grab that post and others like it and present them to the most sympathetic federal judge my very well paid attorneys could find. The sole purpose of same would be to provide corroborating evidence that even though the northern Great Lake States individual management plans may be well meaning, wolf populations are still at risk of being decimated if they are no longer accorded federal protected.
> 
> IMO, the best course of action at this time is to sit quietly in the blind until this thing shakes out and wolf management officially gets transferred to the states, in January I believe, so as not to unwittingly provide ammo to the rabid opposition. FM


I don't think the UP wolves are in any danger of being "Decimated". Especially by residents sharing concerns of their danger to deer, pets or livestock. Wolves are one of if not the hardest predators to hunt and kill. The random wolf killed during deer season or over a spot light are not the majority but rather the rare. Sure their hitting the dirt by hunters that probably should wait as you stated until the state decides a method more applicable to all hunters that want to hang a kill tag on one. I do understand the frustration of them having an uncle that has lost several animals to wolves on his small property. Patience is a virtue to most in this case


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## Grizzly Adams (Oct 6, 2003)

johnIV said:


> I don't think the UP wolves are in any danger of being "Decimated". Especially by residents sharing concerns of their danger to deer, pets or livestock. Wolves are one of if not the hardest predators to hunt and kill. The random wolf killed during deer season or over a spot light are not the majority but rather the rare. Sure their hitting the dirt by hunters that probably should wait as you stated until the state decides a method more applicable to all hunters that want to hang a kill tag on one. I do understand the frustration of them having an uncle that has lost several animals to wolves on his small property. Patience is a virtue to most in this case


Add in...
Tell the bunny hugger to go gut the deer, the guy above shot, while wolves are circling.


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## HuronView (Oct 18, 2014)

Grizzly Adams said:


> Add in...
> Tell the bunny hugger to go gut the deer, the guy above shot, while wolves are circling.


Wonder if I would have been justified in dispatching a wolf if it had tried to carry off the deer I shot... It never dawned on me to shoot one as other interventions, e.g. waving hand (worked), shouting, and warning shot, seemed logical. I have thought of making that video more widely available, but you never know how people will interpret it. 

I teach a resource economics course, in which we talk about ESA, and the economics of species and habitat restoration. I always start with the "hunters are dollar-for-dollar the biggest donors to conservation" argument as a way of illustrating how access fees to public goods are beneficial for species. However, I always get a student that says there is never a reason to hunt something critically endangered or that you won't eat. I always reply, "That's an emotional argument, and one that is at odds with economic and conservation rationality, and it is wholly untrue if the person wanting to hunt the animal is willing to pay more than the animal is worth in terms of conservation." A good case is the Black Rhino: https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/trophy-hunting-and-sustainable-use-rhinos/ Regulated hunting of even critically endangered species, typically results in economic and conservation benefits. I think the case should be made that allowing for a well-regulated harvest would have economic and psychosomatic benefits. If I knew there were 50 permits across the UP, I'd 'feel' a lot better, even if that didn't constitute a big difference in the wolf population.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

HuronView said:


> Wonder if I would have been justified in dispatching a wolf if it had tried to carry off the deer I shot... It never dawned on me to shoot one as other interventions, e.g. waving hand (worked), shouting, and warning shot, seemed logical. I have thought of making that video more widely available, but you never know how people will interpret it.
> 
> I teach a resource economics course, in which we talk about ESA, and the economics of species and habitat restoration. I always start with the "hunters are dollar-for-dollar the biggest donors to conservation" argument as a way of illustrating how access fees to public goods are beneficial for species. However, I always get a student that says there is never a reason to hunt something critically endangered or that you won't eat. I always reply, "That's an emotional argument, and one that is at odds with economic and conservation rationality, and it is wholly untrue if the person wanting to hunt the animal is willing to pay more than the animal is worth in terms of conservation." A good case is the Black Rhino: https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/trophy-hunting-and-sustainable-use-rhinos/ Regulated hunting of even critically endangered species, typically results in economic and conservation benefits. I think the case should be made that allowing for a well-regulated harvest would have economic and psychosomatic benefits. If I knew there were 50 permits across the UP, I'd 'feel' a lot better, even if that didn't constitute a big difference in the wolf population.


I think to the extent of the possible extinction of a species ( such as a gray wolf) ever exists, management would still be just as important. If that's not an option to the local or federal departments, I'd certainly hope that they'd use other financial resources to relocate whatever numbers are necessary to make them manageable. At this point, no local, state or federal department has suggested it. The state so far has done it's best in managing the wolves only to be halted by the feds with more protection of the species. I as a landowner, livestock owner or domestic animal owner cannot kill a wolf in michigan while it's killing any animal I own, Regardless if it's on my property or not. Probably time to send this wolf discussion to another thread related to wolves and discontinue hi jacking the OPs original topic.


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## squirreLeigh (Nov 24, 2020)

All this wolf talk makes me scratch my head a bit. I live in southern MI now, but I was born and raised in Marquette County and hunt up there each year. We never saw wolves as an actual threat to our deer numbers. We saw plenty of wolf tracks, yes, we heard them; even seen a couple crossing roads at night. We saw lion tracks in the west too. Bad winters take a toll on deer numbers, of course. Cars, always. Other hunters, sure (some locales can get pretty crowded). But what I heard a lot of was this: some guy who’s been sitting in the same deer blind with a portable heater year after year who blames wolves he never sees instead of re-evaluating his hunting “methods.”

I am not against hunting and managing wolves, by the way. I’m woke on all that. But this demonizing of wolves is short-sighted. The best part of the UP forests are their incredible biodiversity. If you think wolves are preventing you from harvesting a deer, then you’re looking for a scapegoat. Try new methods. There’s deer sign literally everywhere. Mix it up.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

squirreLeigh said:


> All this wolf talk makes me scratch my head a bit. I live in southern MI now, but I was born and raised in Marquette County and hunt up there each year. We never saw wolves as an actual threat to our deer numbers. We saw plenty of wolf tracks, yes, we heard them; even seen a couple crossing roads at night. We saw lion tracks in the west too. Bad winters take a toll on deer numbers, of course. Cars, always. Other hunters, sure (some locales can get pretty crowded). But what I heard a lot of was this: some guy who’s been sitting in the same deer blind with a portable heater year after year who blames wolves he never sees instead of re-evaluating his hunting “methods.”
> 
> I am not against hunting and managing wolves, by the way. I’m woke on all that. But this demonizing of wolves is short-sighted. The best part of the UP forests are their incredible biodiversity. If you think wolves are preventing you from harvesting a deer, then you’re looking for a scapegoat. Try new methods. There’s deer sign literally everywhere. Mix it up.


I agree 100% on the wolves not being a big concern for deer numbers. Winters are #1 however when winters are at their worst, so are wolves on the herds in the yards. Winter kills and wolf kills IMO go hand in hand many years. Winters can't be managed. Wolves can. Not only winters killing deer but late springs killing early new born fawns are as bad many years. It's a combination for sure. I don't think because we as hunters spending a handful of days in the UP woods hunting deer aren't seeing wolf predation makes us accurate to say it's just not a problem. I've heard loggers for years telling me they see packs killing numerous deer in clear-cuts when snow is too deep for deer to escape. Kills are left and not consumed by the wolves that killed them. Loggers spend many more days afield observing things we as hunters may never see. I do not think wolves at this point are damaging deer numbers annually to any extent but as a whole on livestock, deer and domestic animals, bear dogs, bird dogs and ***** dogs, they have more impact collectively.


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## greense1 (Sep 20, 2012)

johnIV said:


> I agree 100% on the wolves not being a big concern for deer numbers. Winters are #1 however when winters are at their worst, so are wolves on the herds in the yards. Winter kills and wolf kills IMO go hand in hand many years. Winters can't be managed. Wolves can. Not only winters killing deer but late springs killing early new born fawns are as bad many years. It's a combination for sure. I don't think because we as hunters spending a handful of days in the UP woods hunting deer aren't seeing wolf predation makes us accurate to say it's just not a problem. I've heard loggers for years telling me they see packs killing numerous deer in clear-cuts when snow is too deep for deer to escape. Kills are left and not consumed by the wolves that killed them. Loggers spend many more days afield observing things we as hunters may never see. I do not think wolves at this point are damaging deer numbers annually to any extent but as a whole on livestock, deer and domestic animals, bear dogs, bird dogs and ***** dogs, they have more impact collectively.


This is what I’ve always said. The deer herd can survive bad winters and it can survive wolves. However, it can’t survive both. Bad winters have always been the #1 factor where we are but when you get a bad winter with a number of wolves, the yards look like a burial ground the following spring. Like you said, we can control one and not the other and that’s why there’s so much focus on it. That and most people don’t see/agree on the few benefits of wolves in the first place.


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## Grizzly Adams (Oct 6, 2003)

HuronView said:


> Wonder if I would have been justified in dispatching a wolf if it had tried to carry off the deer I shot... It never dawned on me to shoot one as other interventions, e.g. waving hand (worked), shouting, and warning shot, seemed logical. I have thought of making that video more widely available, but you never know how people will interpret it.
> 
> I teach a resource economics course, in which we talk about ESA, and the economics of species and habitat restoration. I always start with the "hunters are dollar-for-dollar the biggest donors to conservation" argument as a way of illustrating how access fees to public goods are beneficial for species. However, I always get a student that says there is never a reason to hunt something critically endangered or that you won't eat. I always reply, "That's an emotional argument, and one that is at odds with economic and conservation rationality, and it is wholly untrue if the person wanting to hunt the animal is willing to pay more than the animal is worth in terms of conservation." A good case is the Black Rhino: https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/trophy-hunting-and-sustainable-use-rhinos/ Regulated hunting of even critically endangered species, typically results in economic and conservation benefits. I think the case should be made that allowing for a well-regulated harvest would have economic and psychosomatic benefits. If I knew there were 50 permits across the UP, I'd 'feel' a lot better, even if that didn't constitute a big difference in the wolf population.


I'm not sure of the rule on that tbh?
There was an interesting story last year in the Michigan Sportsman newspaper (one of them) about a guy in the UP. Think he heard his dog let out a yelp in his yard & seen a wolf had it. Grabbed his gun & went out ...wolf charged the guy & he smoked it. Took the dog to vet & then later Dnr said the scene in snow showed exactly what he said. 

Agree with you guys - a managed population is good. I've heard them in the woods in N MN hunting up there & seen tracks. Seen one on a river ice sheet driving once. Old trapper guy I hunted with up there said he had a pack surround him one time. Backed out slowly & kept ready to fire.


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## UPWalleyeGuy (Feb 17, 2006)

greense1 said:


> This is what I’ve always said. The deer herd can survive bad winters and it can survive wolves. However, it can’t survive both. Bad winters have always been the #1 factor where we are but when you get a bad winter with a number of wolves, the yards look like a burial ground the following spring. Like you said, we can control one and not the other and that’s why there’s so much focus on it. That and most people don’t see/agree on the few benefits of wolves in the first place.


Bingo!!! Winner winner chicken dinner!!


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## onebad800 (Apr 28, 2003)

I’m not blaming the wolves for me not harvesting a buck YET in the up, I blame the Rona virus .... lol


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

What is not mentioned is the stress they put on the deer herd in the winter. You may see a deer that appears to starve to death. In reality it might of survived if it was able to relax during the winter instead of always being on alert and running for its life.
It was proven that cattle in the west where wolves were present went to market weighing less. They attributed it to the stress of the pack.

I am another who does not want them wiped out but low managed numbers. I have hunted with them for years in Saskatchewan. They do temporarily screw up your day sometimes.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

November Sunrise said:


> I think it has value in creating a general estimate, just as an on the hoof assessment can have value in creating a general estimate. But anyone who claims to know with any certainty that a deer is, for instance, 5.5 years old based on tooth wear is engaging in pure folly.
> 
> It's quite telling that 34 practicing deer biologists weren't able to even achieve a 50% accuracy rate on 3.5 year old deer. Their accuracy rates with mature deer were sub 10%.
> 
> http://www.noble.org/ag/wildlife/deer/


Folly is quoting data from whitetail populations that live at southern latitudes and inferring it is comparable to the U.P. whitetail population. Why not use Key deer as your comparators?

Why not quote a study that addresses tooth wear aging versus antler and body development of whitetail deer at northern latitudes in high snowfall areas where deer migrate to winter cover. You know, a study which is actually truly applicable rather than pre-selected to support your contentions.

Here is another Ok based deer study that compares antler and body size aging accuracy rates by cohort, basically what a trail camera array would derive:
Accuracy and implications of visually estimating age of male white‐tailed deer using physical characteristics from photographs - Gee - 2014 - Wildlife Society Bulletin - Wiley Online Library


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Just to reflect on my 2020 November UP deer hunt. I can't say terrible. I saw a wolf briefly which relates to some of my lack of deer sightings. Not a pack just a lone wolf that a few other camp members saw. Compared to last year, terrible deer numbers wise. Let's look at last year vs this year tho. Last year on November 8/9th, we got dumped on with 15" of snow in the central UP. Deer were all over free food rather than digging for it thru all the deep snow. They literally camped out near bait all day and night. Pre rut was still happening during the opener. This year where I was at, the bucks were chasing does. Last year I had alot of bucks visiting my mock scrapes daily. This year it all happened earlier in November. Rain, warm temps, wind all wrecked this year's opening day and following days. New moon was for not this year with weather conditions dictating deer movement over moon phase. The wolf gets the pass this year (so far) for determining deer sightings (in my neck of the woods). In the end, my 2020 UP deer season isn't about harvest or deer numbers. It's about time with deer camp buddies and camp commrodery.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Cork Dust said:


> Folly is quoting data from whitetail populations that live at southern latitudes and inferring it is comparable to the U.P. whitetail population. Why not use Key deer as your comparators?
> 
> Why not quote a study that addresses tooth wear aging versus antler and body development of whitetail deer at northern latitudes in high snowfall areas where deer migrate to winter cover. You know, a study which is actually truly applicable rather than pre-selected to support your contentions.
> 
> ...


Early in this thread you tossed out a condescending post towards a member who was using an on the hoof aging estimate and not hanging a deer by your criteria. You later asserted that you know the exact age of the two bucks on your wall that you posted pictures of based on their teeth. You can keep trying to spin it however you want but anyone with knowledge of the topic knows that tooth wear aging doesn't provide the certainty you claimed.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

November Sunrise said:


> Early in this thread you tossed out a condescending post towards a member who was using an on the hoof aging estimate and not hanging a deer by your criteria. You later asserted that you know the exact age of the two bucks on your wall that you posted pictures of based on their teeth. You can keep trying to spin it however you want but anyone with knowledge of the topic knows that tooth wear aging doesn't provide the certainty you claimed.


Actually I stated that the two deer were three years apart by tooth age, yet scored the same. 

Where tooth aging is most inconsistent is in sandy soil dominated landscapes...like the old sea bed soils of Oklahoma.

Had you read the visual aging study you would have noted that their aging accuracy percentage was actually worse for mature deer, declining in accuracy with age...also done in Oklahoma, a state that lacks the high level of variance and winter climate severity of Michigan's UP, a major factor in body growth and antler development.

Cementum annuli aging is relatively accurate, but quite expensive. From a herd management standpoint, musculoskeletal maturity generally occurs at 3.5 YO, lending generally better overwinter survival to this cohort, all that is of central value in growing or maintaining a deer herd's vitality, not their antler array or rack-at-age X,Y, Z.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Trophy Specialist said:


> You must be living in Layla land if you actually belive that the NRC would carr what I think on any issue. I've felt with them through enough to know they only listen to large groups and even then they usually ignor them and do what they want. Of all the "constituents" you mentioned, only hunters pay the lion's share for wildlife management. You'd think that might carry some weight. By the way, the DNR got rid of the WSI years ago and now have no means to measure winters and they are failing miserably in that department in recent years.


The DNR is not publishing the WSI anymore but they are using data from NOAA interactive snow maps, so saying so shows your ignorance on the subject of winter severity. Once this covid crap goes away you should attend some of the Sportsman’s Coalition meetings. Forest Meister and myself are regular attendees where this subject was discussed at our last meeting just prior to the covid shutdown took effect. At that meeting the preliminary deer camp survey results were a bulk of the agenda. They are very informative.


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## IceHog (Nov 23, 2007)

Al Uhelski said:


> All day sits for a few days in the south central UP and I connected on one of my target bucks on the 16th. Passed up at least 15 bucks before he showed out of 9 days of hunting since November 4th.
> View attachment 605891


Awesome buck!


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

Forest Meister said:


> View attachment 608411
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Trophy Specialist said:


> Redraw DMU boundaries which has not been done in decades
> Count the deer in each DMU like they do with wolves
> Truly evaluate winter severity impacts on deer each year
> Set deer population goals at the carrying capacity
> ...


Actually, this is what was attempted in the early 2000s. Each DMU was inventoried, a population estimate made and buck-to-doe ratio calculated, along with some recommendations with regard to habitat management and target herd density to be in-sync with the habitat. NRC came together, looked at the numbers derived and determined that the overall deer tag issuance numbers would have to be radically reduced, not just for annual doe tags, but buck take as well. They deemed the outcome too radical for sportsman to embrace in large numbers. Why the need for reductions so sweeping that they would be broadly deemed unacceptable? One simple answer: Winter habitat degradation...throughout the entire peninsula on Federal, private and State lands. Fifteen years later, many of us were still asking the same question of the managers why do you continually focus on APRs when the pinch-point is over-winter carrying capacity. Had you been in attendance at a meeting held in March of 2015, you would have witnessed an open donnybrook between the UP Sportsman's Alliance officers and UP. Whitetails officer in attendance, all of them were members of the advisory comm. to the MDNR on Whitetail management regulations. What were the arguing about so vehemently? APR recommendations submitted to the State legislature that were absolutely non-binding and eventually ignored by the State legislature who formed their own.
I actually had to stand and ask the four people engaged in a shouting match to please be quiet since the other attendees did not come to hear them snipe at each other publicly...which did not go over well among these exalted self involved collective asses. Jim Hammill was the only member of the Advisory Committee who abstained from Public comment. On the break I side-stepped the queries of "who did I represent?" from the boys. and sought-out Jim to aske him whether it would be worthwhile to apply for the vacant seat on the advisory committee. He responded by telling me he was not seeking to be reappointed. I then asked him why no coordinated effort had been made to stabilize winter deer complex acreage? He said that every single time he had attempted to address habitat He was shouted-down by the APR adherents. He told me to stay in contact with him because he was on the verge of working-out a grant from SCI to launch a joint venture that coordinated State, Federal, Corporate managed forestlands, and private holdings to identify and address Winter Deer Conplex locations, current status, management and expansion. This was the birth of the U.P. Winter Habitat Work Group, now referred to as the UP Habitat Work Group.

Why the longwinded background story? Trophy Specialist, all of your suggestions on their face are quite easy to accomplish...UNTIL you factor-in that deer over a large segment of the UP geography are in motion, either emigrating to or immigrating from Winter Habitat to summer range, which both increases the complexity of all the actions you suggest because the manpower needs and dollar expenditures ramp-up significantly due to the relatively short time window when deer are actually on summer range throughout the UP. There was a proposal to purchase nearly a thousand tracking collars arrays and rotate use of these around among the DMUs to gauge movement distance and timing to aid in population estimation timing within each DMU. This was by CWD monitoring which redirected the tracking collars to the border zones currently being monitored.

I recently watched a private lands forester berate the NRC during the comment period at their meeting here in Mqt. over miss-management of deer via doe tags in a DMU in the southern tier south of Escanaba. The local wildlife biologist was called-up from the back of the room where he explained that they issue the doe tags, yet they remain unfilled and unused since this is mostly private camp and club land. This is just one example of the complications of whitetail management in the U.P. that Forest Meister summarized better. I have hunted in two areas with mandatory APRs in the Delta/MQT county line area...simply put, they worked, yet when the post card survey was conducted the proportion of positive respondents was too low to institute them long-term. This is a heavily hunted area with a lot of small camp holdings and high hunting pressure; a 140 8pt would be a monster buck. I hunt grouse there and have for a couple of decades. The bucks with 4x4 racks were easily more numerous under the point restrictions, yet, not supported as a management goal by the hunter base, despite the ample data that young bucks doing the majority of the breeding exhibit greater overwinter mortality in severe due to weight loss from an already too low winter entry body weight when they are still growing year around, unlike mature deer.

I also owned a camp adjacent a major Winter Deer Complex in Baraga, Co. that I sold in 1997 based on a conversation with John Ozoga on high snowfall areas and wolf predation; essentially John pointed-out that the four wolf packs that had established at the base of the Keweenaw peninsula, combined with high annual snowfall would require multiple mild winters in sequence to enable the herd to recover to pre-1996 levels.

John Ozoga wrote a short piece for a now-defunct hunt/fish periodical up here... He titled it: In Search of Monarchs. He offered three main points to achieve QDM type deer herd management goals: Habitat management, with central focus on Winter Deer Complexes; Focus on obtaining a higher percentage of mature deer on the landscape; a willingness among hunters to not shoot a buck every year. After reading through this thread, I sincerely doubt that there is much consensus or resolve on the value of these points.

There was one point that Jim Hammill made early-on in our discussions of focusing the Public's attention on Winter Deer Complex condition and area as the principal means of stabilizing deer numbers in the UP; he repeatedly said, if the effort succeeds neither of us would live to see the overall benefits of the effort.

What I would suggest is organize a sportsman driven camera survey on a stratified basis within DMUs, designed and orchestrated by the local wildlife biologist(s) and technicians. This would amplify the manpower to get the SD cards out in the woods on these transects over a specific interval and back to get the numbers viewed per unit area recorded for extrapolation to derive an estimate over the DMU's total area. IN-synch a radio collared migration array for a subsample of deer later in the early fall within those same DMU's would provide data on where and how far they go. This could be run like the wolf surveys which sample roughly 62% of the total DMU number within a year. The Miss. State Univ. fawn and adult deer predation data for the three annual snowfall tiers could be applied as an overlay, with range estimates used to inform predation based on WSI annual values.

The MDNR already has trend data taken and recorded real-time from their check stations on pedicel diameter for 1.5YO bucks, which provides them with an index on antler growth rates that is geography specific. As the UP Habitat Work Group initiative's efforts are implemented and allowed to run, a simple multiple regression analysis of WSI, optimal stem count per unit area within a DMU, and pedicel diameter data could be derived. The other option would be to build a Bayesian based model that is informed through time as the data improves both in terms of frequency and area monitored, as well as time sequence assessed. I have approached our Region 1 Wildlife chief to access the collective expertise of the MSU Quantitative Fisheries Center in their internal assessment efforts at trying to quantify deer number and total UP population...

The other option would be to approach MSU Quantitative Fisheries Center which has already developed several wildlife population assessment models for the MDNR.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Luv2hunteup said:


> Check out the Michigan DNR wolf plan. The DNR deer surveys about half the UP annually to come up with a number of unique wolves and not an estimate. They do not extrapolate that data for wolves not counted and area not surveyed. It’s the absolute minimum number and does not reflect anywhere near the true number of wolves in the UP.


I think we've known this for years as hunters and sportsman.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Trophy Specialist said:


> Redraw DMU boundaries which has not been done in decades
> Count the deer in each DMU like they do with wolves
> Truly evaluate winter severity impacts on deer each year
> Set deer population goals at the carrying capacity
> ...


Managing the deer habitat at this point in many places in the UP is dead. With logging operations depleting all the beech and big woods these deer lived and fed on for years, it's never going to return. They've planted australian pines to replace there original resource that provides no food only maybe some bedding and thermal cover areas. Food sources have been destroyed up there annually from 1997 by logging operations. Since 1997, I haven't killed many respectable bucks. Prior to that, many of us at camp could expect a wall hanger annually. Loggers IMO are the reason the big bucks disappeared in my area. I could set up on Beech ridges and kill big bucks fairly regularly. With these beech trees removed, the bucks move on to food sources that provide nutrition. Unless agriculture is close by, the nutrition provided in today's UP woods isn't going to sustain quality bucks. At least not where I hunt.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Luv2hunteup said:


> The DNR is not publishing the WSI anymore but they are using data from NOAA interactive snow maps, so saying so shows your ignorance on the subject of winter severity. Once this covid crap goes away you should attend some of the Sportsman’s Coalition meetings. Forest Meister and myself are regular attendees where this subject was discussed at our last meeting just prior to the covid shutdown took effect. At that meeting the preliminary deer camp survey results were a bulk of the agenda. They are very informative.


The DNR seems to be ignoring the data. Theyalleged mild winters the last two in a row increasing the antlerless quotas, areas and regs yet the deer kill is down two years in a row. They bew it and now want even more herd reduction. A clear demonstration of incompetence. As for attending meetings, some of us have to actually work for a living. Maybe after I retire I can get more involved.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

johnIV said:


> Managing the deer habitat at this point in many places in the UP is dead. With logging operations depleting all the beech and big woods these deer lived and fed on for years, it's never going to return. They've planted australian pines to replace there original resource that provides no food only maybe some bedding and thermal cover areas. Food sources have been destroyed up there annually from 1997 by logging operations. Since 1997, I haven't killed many respectable bucks. Prior to that, many of us at camp could expect a wall hanger annually. Loggers IMO are the reason the big bucks disappeared in my area. I could set up on Beech ridges and kill big bucks fairly regularly. With these beech trees removed, the bucks move on to food sources that provide nutrition. Unless agriculture is close by, the nutrition provided in today's UP woods isn't going to sustain quality bucks. At least not where I hunt.


On the subject of blaming logging operations for "depleting all the beech", there are some facts that should be explored anyone jumps to an "obvious" conclusion. The facts deal with a deadly disease called Beach Bark Disease.

Beech Bark Disease, (BBD) which has been brought up and discuss on this forum before, is another one of those wonderful imports from abroad that is having a severe impact on a native species. Studies vary but anywhere from 75% to 97% of trees can be expected to succumb to BBD. What timber producing business operation in their right mind would not salvage what they can while the beech still had some value rather than let it stand and lose everything? We are talking about millions and millions of board and hundreds of thousands of cores being at risk of becoming worthless if not removed. 

That said, both the DNR and the USFS have been racing against time to save what beech they can. Working under the direction of entomologists, certain trees that appear resistant have been designated as "no cut" in many areas where the other dying beech is being salvaged. it is hoped these trees are actually resistant to BBD and will propagate themselves so that over time beech will once again return to the forest. It ain't goin' to happen overnight, thought. The DNR in conjunction with other entities has also been collecting seed from obviously resistant trees and growing them in a nursery setting. Some of these saplings should be being out-planted already.

Not sure who is planting ''Australian pines" or where they are being planted, but will keep my eyes open. FM


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Trophy Specialist said:


> The DNR seems to be ignoring the data. Theyalleged mild winters the last two in a row increasing the antlerless quotas, areas and regs yet the deer kill is down two years in a row. They bew it and now want even more herd reduction. A clear demonstration of incompetence. As for attending meetings, some of us have to actually work for a living. Maybe after I retire I can get more involved.


Obviously you have a camp in the UP so you know the deer numbers were less than half of last year's numbers anytime crossing the Mac bridge this year. I went back up for a few days of hunting when colder temps settled in. Numbers were even lower returning yesterday morning showing a 60% reduction in harvest as of Thanksgiving last year.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Trophy Specialist said:


> The DNR seems to be ignoring the data. Theyalleged mild winters the last two in a row increasing the antlerless quotas, areas and regs yet the deer kill is down two years in a row. They bew it and now want even more herd reduction. A clear demonstration of incompetence. As for attending meetings, some of us have to actually work for a living. Maybe after I retire I can get more involved.


Honestly, what is it exactly, about depleted winter habitat that is not getting any better, that is so hard to understand? FM


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Trophy Specialist said:


> You must be living in Layla land if you actually belive that the NRC would carr what I think on any issue. I've felt with them through enough to know they only listen to large groups and even then they usually ignor them and do what they want. Of all the "constituents" you mentioned, only hunters pay the lion's share for wildlife management. You'd think that might carry some weight. By the way, the DNR got rid of the WSI years ago and now have no means to measure winters and they are failing miserably in that department in recent years.


Saying someone won't listen when presented with good ideas and using that as a reason not to present them sounds strangely like my Teddy Roosevelt quote above. Why not take your good, solid, ideas that are surely backed by facts and sound empirical date to the Powers that can act on them? If at that point they do not pay heed one has fought the good fight and surely would have earned the respect of fellow outdoorsman. 

On the other hand, if there are no solid facts that can be backed by scientific data it might be best to sit back in the weeds and merely complain. 

There is a saying in the UP that goes like this: "Nobody ever lost an election by bashing the DNR." For some reason I feel it may have some application here. FM


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Forest Meister said:


> On the subject of blaming logging operations for "depleting all the beech", there are some facts that should be explored anyone jumps to an "obvious" conclusion. The facts deal with a deadly disease called Beach Bark Disease.
> 
> Beech Bark Disease, (BBD) which has been brought up and discuss on this forum before, is another one of those wonderful imports from abroad that is having a severe impact on a native species. Studies vary but anywhere from 75% to 97% of trees can be expected to succumb to BBD. What timber producing business operation in their right mind would not salvage what they can while the beech still had some value rather than let it stand and lose everything? We are talking about millions and millions of board and hundreds of thousands of cores being at risk of becoming worthless if not removed.
> 
> ...


Regardless of whether it's for that reason or just to cut trees for paper products or other reasons, it's depleting the resource that deer utilize. My intent isn't to say it's happening TO impact the deer quality but rather to say it's HAPPENING...Period. Not really sure what can be done about it if anything can. Like the saying goes, "It is, what it is"! Like every thing good, doesn't last forever. I've since taken my deer hunting for quality bucks to Ohio. I love the traditional UP deer camp and will do it every year for 2 weeks regardless as it's not about just killing but enjoying the time spent at UP deer camp. I'll always be looking for that Bill Rushford mega monster buck moving south thru my hunting grounds migrating as he's rutting hoping for a shot. Well, maybe his great grandson at this point.


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## ryan-b (Sep 18, 2009)

johnIV said:


> Obviously you have a camp in the UP so you know the deer numbers were less than half of last year's numbers anytime crossing the Mac bridge this year. I went back up for a few days of hunting when colder temps settled in. Numbers were even lower returning yesterday morning showing a 60% reduction in harvest as of Thanksgiving last year.


What would be the point in basing anything off bridge count numbers this year? Travel is waaaaaayyyyyyy down due to covid.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

ryan-b said:


> What would be the point in basing anything off bridge count numbers this year? Travel is waaaaaayyyyyyy down due to covid.


The DNR was telling us That deer hunter numbers were up this year.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

ryan-b said:


> What would be the point in basing anything off bridge count numbers this year? Travel is waaaaaayyyyyyy down due to covid.


We had more hunters in our area than ever this year. I wouldn't count on hunter numbers being down this year. Where did that info come from? More deer licenses were sold this year than last year. That came from the DNR. Travel is down yes as a whole but hunters traveling to hunt I do not believe is down.


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## onebad800 (Apr 28, 2003)

Bridge count was at -33% as of midnight thanksgiving day


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

onebad800 said:


> Bridge count was at -33% as of midnight thanksgiving day


Interesting. The number was -53% when I crossed it yesterday at 745am. Lots of deer were added to that number thru out the day. Still a third down.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Trophy Specialist said:


> The DNR was telling us That deer hunter numbers were up this year.


My deer camp data supports that. Based on the number of hunters I’ve seen. Lots of deer sightings. More than last year and the year prior. Older age class bucks have eluded me so far but there is lots of season left.


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## ryan-b (Sep 18, 2009)

johnIV said:


> We had more hunters in our area than ever this year. I wouldn't count on hunter numbers being down this year. Where did that info come from? More deer licenses were sold this year than last year. That came from the DNR. Travel is down yes as a whole but hunters traveling to hunt I do not believe is down.


Have been blown away by how few hunters and how few gun shots I’ve heard over hear in a extremely popular area to hunt in NWLP. Specially since license sales were up so much. The restrictions right before the opener, and the doubling down the the whole covid will kill you thing really seems to have effected hunter numbers over here.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Well plenty of hunters in my area .


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Luv2hunteup said:


> My deer camp data supports that. Based on the number of hunters I’ve seen. Lots of deer sightings. More than last year and the year prior. Older age class bucks have eluded me so far but there is lots of season left.


Consider yourself lucky then. Deer numbers have been trending downward in most of the U.P. including my area. My proprrty is prime habitats to with 8 acres of food plots, ideal cover, but I have cedar and maple sprouting everywhere. Lots of wolves, bears, coyotes and cats here, yet antlerless permits increasing. Sad to see.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Trophy Specialist said:


> The DNR was telling us That deer hunter numbers were up this year.


I have not been paying a lot of attention to the details other than reading press releases that say license sales are up but I do not recall seeing a press release saying actual hunter number were up. I could have missed that, though.

Whether up or down there could be a lot of variables in this far from normal year that might affect the perception of numbers, not the least of which being whether "normal numbers" of hunters were willing to travel or merely hunted from home. FM


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## greense1 (Sep 20, 2012)

Trophy Specialist said:


> The DNR was telling us That deer hunter numbers were up this year.


From what I saw it was an absolute ghost town near us in the western UP. Our camp had 4(usually have 10-12) and a few of the neighboring camps weren’t even there at all. It would shock me if there were more people hunting in our area than usual. It looked and felt the exact opposite.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

I noticed more people in our area. Too many Wisconsin plates.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

There a lot of campers parked along the forest service roads where there has never been camps before. Established camps had trucks parked around them. Trucks have been parked where I have never seen before all fall. 

Public land usage is up a least in Mackinac and Chippewa county where I travel. 

I was totaling my Deer Camp Survey sightings while watching deer all afternoon. So far this season 156 sightings, 15 buck sightings and doe to fawn ratio greater than 1:1 in favor of fawns. All categories are higher than the last few years.


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## B.Jarvinen (Jul 12, 2014)

Wanted to add a comment about Beech in the Upper Peninsula: Beech only grows in the eastern 2/3 or so of the U.P. and thus has no relevancy to considering habitat in the western 1/3. The species is ever so slowly migrating its way across. 

I collect a lot of tree seed and though I have always had a standing order for 50# of Beech seed, I have never filled it. That is not due to the mortality from Beech Bark Disease, which can vary from site to site (seems less lethal in NW Lower Peninsula). But rather due to the way that Beech doesn't even flower at all each and every year (something I pay attention to as I have been asked to collect Beech pollen for allergy labs in the past). Michigan is a northern range limit for the species, and as a woody plant approaches it's range limit, it is less often successful at setting seed than it is in the core of it's natural range. In the NW Lower, I have only ever seen good Beech crops about one year in three in my life, maybe one year in four. That is enough to perpetuate the species. Wildlife do consume Beech nuts as an excellent hard mast food source, but there are several others and I believe Oak is far more significant to hard mast levels on the landscape in Michigan.


re: Winter Habitat Quality & Size in U.P. - I have been perplexed by reading about this and the new working group. Is there something specific that is missing? The U.P. is the only place I have ever seen where young conifer thermal cover is increasing, naturally. Which I would trace to low Deer #s. You won't often see waist to head high Hemlock in the Lower Peninsula and outside of a high lime area, you will hardly ever see White Cedar regen at all. Both of those are on the increase in the U.P. from what I see. The slow return of "Canada Yew" / "Ground Hemlock" / "Taxus canadensis" to many areas of the U.P. is also an obvious sign of the now lower browse pressure. That species is extremely rare in the Lower Peninsula.

If Winter Habitat is some sort of bottleneck to Deer population #s, I would like to learn what specific parts of that idea are a problem. I have heard thoughts in the U.P. that winter habitat concentration just makes things too easy for Deer predators and that has led some to stop feeding Deer in winter as a result.



This year I have been wondering about Deer in the U.P. in a specific way - did the October snows trigger any early migration, placing Deer in their winter areas a bit early this year?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

B.Jarvinen said:


> Wanted to add a comment about Beech in the Upper Peninsula: Beech only grows in the eastern 2/3 or so of the U.P. and thus has no relevancy to considering habitat in the western 1/3. The species is ever so slowly migrating its way across.
> 
> I collect a lot of tree seed and though I have always had a standing order for 50# of Beech seed, I have never filled it. That is not due to the mortality from Beech Bark Disease, which can vary from site to site (seems less lethal in NW Lower Peninsula). But rather due to the way that Beech doesn't even flower at all each and every year (something I pay attention to as I have been asked to collect Beech pollen for allergy labs in the past). Michigan is a northern range limit for the species, and as a woody plant approaches it's range limit, it is less often successful at setting seed than it is in the core of it's natural range. In the NW Lower, I have only ever seen good Beech crops about one year in three in my life, maybe one year in four. That is enough to perpetuate the species. Wildlife do consume Beech nuts as an excellent hard mast food source, but there are several others and I believe Oak is far more significant to hard mast levels on the landscape in Michigan.
> 
> ...


The thermal cover I'm familiar with is older cedar. 
Several to a foot size in trunk diameters at our waist height type stuff.
In tracts large enough to break high winds quite a bit , and umbrella the snow a bit.
Alas , no browse involved.

Ideally , woody browse would be prolific at the edges. More ideally , quality browse.
It does not seem to take many deer many years to reduce browse capacity of a revisited yarding area. Subject to what's on it's perimeter of course.

The area I found winter kills (years ago in the Midish- Northern lower) had a browse line where deer had been able to leave the thermal cover. A browse line on younger cedars ,out of reach of fawns. And maybe some yearlings. And cedar may not be the best browse. 
In my opinion it's not even midgrade when it is the entire browse availability.


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## B.Jarvinen (Jul 12, 2014)

I have always found "browse" to be extremely situational. What is true about it in one place can be different just a few miles away. 

But am always looking to learn how it all "fits together."


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## erik73 (Jan 10, 2011)

Seen 8 different bucks during bow season. Nothing huge but I did manage a 6pt & 7pt with my crossbow. Mackinac & Chippewa co


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

johnIV said:


> Managing the deer habitat at this point in many places in the UP is dead. With logging operations depleting all the beech and big woods these deer lived and fed on for years, it's never going to return. They've planted australian pines to replace there original resource that provides no food only maybe some bedding and thermal cover areas. Food sources have been destroyed up there annually from 1997 by logging operations. Since 1997, I haven't killed many respectable bucks. Prior to that, many of us at camp could expect a wall hanger annually. Loggers IMO are the reason the big bucks disappeared in my area. I could set up on Beech ridges and kill big bucks fairly regularly. With these beech trees removed, the bucks move on to food sources that provide nutrition. Unless agriculture is close by, the nutrition provided in today's UP woods isn't going to sustain quality bucks. At least not where I hunt.


These cuttings are occurring due to a disease that is projected to kill ALL the beech trees in those beech/maple highlands in the UP Forestry Division in concert with USFS and MSU Forestry Dept. is researching disease resistant beech strains for broad scale replanting. This has been repeatedly communicated to the Public for nearly a decade. Why is it more rational to leave the trees to die, as well as serve as habitat for pathogen spread? With regard to forest practices, yes, whole tree harvest does have a marked impact of wildlife, yet, the other side of that coin was the marked beneficial impacts of the paper pulp industry's cuttings on deer habitat to lead to the population boom that occurred in UP deer populations in the 1980s through the late 1990s.

Personally, from 38 years of living and hunting in the central and western UP, I attribute much of the downturn in this years deer kill to a markedly erratic weather interval that overlaid much of the rut. We went from a slowly descending cool fall to instant winter and then back to 50 and near 70F weather for a week, pretty warm for deer with full winter coats ready for ambient temperatures down in the 20s to single digits. Deer became nocturnal during the thaw, with some dispersal toward winter yards in areas that experienced high snow depths. 

I would echo Forest Meister's Teddy Roosevelt quote with one from Jerry Garcia; "Ya ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know!"


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

B.Jarvinen said:


> I have heard thoughts in the U.P. that winter habitat concentration just makes things too easy for Deer predators and that has led some to stop feeding Deer in winter as a result.


I know one winter feeder who has quit just for this reason.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

B.Jarvinen said:


> Wanted to add a comment about Beech in the Upper Peninsula: Beech only grows in the eastern 2/3 or so of the U.P. and thus has no relevancy to considering habitat in the western 1/3. The species is ever so slowly migrating its way across.
> 
> I collect a lot of tree seed and though I have always had a standing order for 50# of Beech seed, I have never filled it. That is not due to the mortality from Beech Bark Disease, which can vary from site to site (seems less lethal in NW Lower Peninsula). But rather due to the way that Beech doesn't even flower at all each and every year (something I pay attention to as I have been asked to collect Beech pollen for allergy labs in the past). Michigan is a northern range limit for the species, and as a woody plant approaches it's range limit, it is less often successful at setting seed than it is in the core of it's natural range. In the NW Lower, I have only ever seen good Beech crops about one year in three in my life, maybe one year in four. That is enough to perpetuate the species. Wildlife do consume Beech nuts as an excellent hard mast food source, but there are several others and I believe Oak is far more significant to hard mast levels on the landscape in Michigan.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately oak only grows in certain regions of the UP as well. None in my range what so ever. Beech trees still produce nuts in my area on the few trees that still exist. On those years, I do see more deer and consistently using those ridges and areas the do live.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

While I understand the need to remove the scale or bark diseased trees, I do not understand the need to remove all based on it's likely hood of it appearing. Again, if it's an issue, address it. The eastern UP and northern LP were the areas hard hot with this disease. Alger county had some amd originally back in 2000 was a core area. They removed most of that problem with few trees having it remaining. They continued to remove those with removing the remaining healthy trees as well. It's not only the beech that are being wiped out. These areas are being clear cut and left like moonscapes. No cover or food for deer/bear. I believe this location in my core hunting area is the cause of the deer/bear moving out. I'm no wildlife biologist but speaking to a couple very knowledgeable biologists, they conclude the same. Wiping out huge wooded areas has huge impacts on local populations and they do leave these areas finding better habitat. Maybe this can't be helped and maybe it's not the intent of the project but it is the end result.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

We do have some Beech on our property in Dickinson County, which I believe is probably close to the end of its range. Every one of our beech trees have bear claw marks on them so I know bears like the nuts which grow only every few years. Hoping the beech bark disease doesn't make it this far west.

We only had 1 lonely Red Oak on our property when we purchased it but I have been planting oaks for years and I am finally getting some acorn production on them. Unfortunately, bears are climbing my young oaks and breaking branches down so they can eat the acorns on the ground.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Wild Thing said:


> We do have some Beech on our property in Dickinson County, which I believe is probably close to the end of its range. Every one of our beech trees have bear claw marks on them so I know bears like the nuts which grow only every few years. Hoping the beech bark disease doesn't make it this far west.
> 
> We only had 1 lonely Red Oak on our property when we purchased it but I have been planting oaks for years and I am finally getting some acorn production on them. Unfortunately, bears are climbing my young oaks and breaking branches down so they can eat the acorns on the ground.


Many times headed to a stand during deer season, I've bumped bears feeding under beech trees. It's a favorite food of bears also. Like I said, not much can be done with the eradicating of beech. I've voiced this clear cut issue on state lands numerous times and many of the clear cuts are happening in Plum Creek or other private lands so that's not even worth questioning. Having a camp close to my hunting grounds makes it tough to want to travel too far to hunt being quads are used to travel to parking locations for hunting. I travel around 4-5 miles on quad to my area as it is. Think I'd scout another hunting location and put a new camp in that location if I had to travel too far by quad.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Wild Thing said:


> We do have some Beech on our property in Dickinson County, which I believe is probably close to the end of its range. Every one of our beech trees have bear claw marks on them so I know bears like the nuts which grow only every few years. Hoping the beech bark disease doesn't make it this far west.
> 
> We only had 1 lonely Red Oak on our property when we purchased it but I have been planting oaks for years and I am finally getting some acorn production on them. Unfortunately, bears are climbing my young oaks and breaking branches down so they can eat the acorns on the ground.


The fewer the beech, the less opportunity there is for BBD to spread from tree to tree (even though wind is a major spreader). It has not yet affected my scattered beech in Menominee either, knock on wood.

Just as an FYI: There are a couple things that I found quite interesting about BBD that were presented at some otherwise somewhat boring symposiums on forest pests. The first was that, in general, trees near the edge of their range seem to have greater genetic diversity and thus there are likely to be a higher percentage of disease resistant trees. The second is that beech with smoother bark seem to be more resistant than the ones with rougher bark.

Another FYI: Beech scale is the predecessor of BBD and can easily be overlooked by the casual observer. Sometimes it takes a year or three until its numbers balloon and turn the trunks of a few trees in an area so white they can be seen from many feet away. It generally takes three to six years after scale appears for trees to die.

Then there is something called "beech snap", a result of BBD. It doesn't occur on all infected trees but is common enough to be concerned about and named. On many infected trees a person might see the potential for it but it can also occur on seemingly healthy trees if the scale and resulting cankers are high enough so as not to be easily observed. In the interest of "an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure" and "better safe than sorry", beech have been removed from several campgrounds because of this very real possibility. As far as hunting around beech on windy days, keep an eye out! FM


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## onebad800 (Apr 28, 2003)

My boys(3) and I last hunt for the UP rifle season, no deer sightings yesterday or today so far , have most of the bucks on cam still but all at night except a small spike. Still holding some hope for one of them to connect tonight. Not the best for us up here this season


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## Carpenter Bill (Jan 27, 2018)

Smoke a pack a day, save the Up deer heard. 


Forest Meister said:


> We have a winner!
> 
> If I were the Grand Pupa of Bunny Hugger Inc. I would grab that post and others like it and present them to the most sympathetic federal judge my very well paid attorneys could find. The sole purpose of same would be to provide corroborating evidence that even though the northern Great Lake States individual management plans may be well meaning, wolf populations are still at risk of being decimated if they are no longer accorded federal protected.
> 
> IMO, the best course of action at this time is to sit quietly in the blind until this thing shakes out and wolf management officially gets transferred to the states, in January I believe, so as not to unwittingly provide ammo to the rabid opposition. FM


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

onebad800 said:


> My boys(3) and I last hunt for the UP rifle season, no deer sightings yesterday or today so far , have most of the bucks on cam still but all at night except a small spike. Still holding some hope for one of them to connect tonight. Not the best for us up here this season


Good luck. I wish I had some time off to go back up there. This was the first year in a long time that we had quite a few bucks on camera.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

U of M Fan said:


> Good luck. I wish I had some time off to go back up there. This was the first year in a long time that we had quite a few bucks on camera.


Not trying to be the turd in your kids sand box but I did exactly what you wanted to do. Hunted from the 15th thru the 20th. Came home because temps and wind were very bad. Headed back up that following Sunday morning cause heard temps were starting to drop and snow coming in. Well, snow was only a skiff and warm temps returned. Wind was up some again too. All cam pics showed night time activity. Came home Thanksgiving morning to try my property here. Monday snow coming up in. I guess I'll chalk up this years hunt to the rest of 2020... Different !!!


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

johnIV said:


> Not trying to be the turd in your kids sand box but I did exactly what you wanted to do. Hunted from the 15th thru the 20th. Came home because temps and wind were very bad. Headed back up that following Sunday morning cause heard temps were starting to drop and snow coming in. Well, snow was only a skiff and warm temps returned. Wind was up some again too. All cam pics showed night time activity. Came home Thanksgiving morning to try my property here. Monday snow coming up in. I guess I'll chalk up this years hunt to the rest of 2020... Different !!!


I was up from November 2-16. I would like to head up the end of December if I could.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

U of M Fan said:


> I was up from November 2-16. I would like to head up the end of December if I could.


I didn't bow hunt our camp this year as I usually do. Typically we bow hunt from the 8th thru the 13th, take a day off getting ready for the gun opener and hunt another 7-10 days. This year I hunted Ohio from Nov 2nd thru the 11th. Headed to the UP on the 12th. I'm also thinking I'll muzzleload the UP for 3-4 days maybe more depending on how it goes. Next year I'll be back to doing a back to back bow/rifle hunt in the UP. 2021 can only go one direction luck wise compared to 2020. Look forward to it. Lots of fishing from winter thru summer to keep busy between now and then. Good luck.


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

Carpenter Bill said:


> Smoke a pack a day, save the Up deer heard.


But what about the silent ones?


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

johnIV said:


> Many times headed to a stand during deer season, I've bumped bears feeding under beech trees. It's a favorite food of bears also. Like I said, not much can be done with the eradicating of beech. I've voiced this clear cut issue on state lands numerous times and many of the clear cuts are happening in Plum Creek or other private lands so that's not even worth questioning. Having a camp close to my hunting grounds makes it tough to want to travel too far to hunt being quads are used to travel to parking locations for hunting. I travel around 4-5 miles on quad to my area as it is. Think I'd scout another hunting location and put a new camp in that location if I had to travel too far by quad.


Just a point...CFR lands do not allow motorized vehicles on their holdings, only foot traffic. Plum Creek is not very lenient on this point, from several incidents I have heard of in Delta county

Red Oak comprises about 20% of the UP forest area, yet it has a disproportionate benefit via its mast, just like beech. Another point that should have been offered earlier to Trophy Specialist's complaints about MDNR Wildlife Div. management; the MDNR has oversight of roughly 20% of the 10.6 million acres Again, roughly three quarters of the deer up here live on less that 30% of the land area. This is one of the successful side benefits of the UP Habitat Work Group's efforts since they have been able to get State, Federal Forest, Private Corporate Forest and private land owners to participate in this coordinated common effort to stabilize and then restore key Winter Deer Complexes throughout the Upper Peninsula.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Cork Dust said:


> Just a point...CFR lands do not allow motorized vehicles on their holdings, only foot traffic. Plum Creek is not very lenient on this point, from several incidents I have heard of in Delta county
> 
> Red Oak comprises about 20% of the UP forest area, yet it has a disproportionate benefit via its mast, just like beech. Another point that should have been offered earlier to Trophy Specialist's complaints about MDNR Wildlife Div. management; the MDNR has oversight of roughly 20% of the 10.6 million acres Again, roughly three quarters of the deer up here live on less that 30% of the land area. This is one of the successful side benefits of the UP Habitat Work Group's efforts since they have been able to get State, Federal Forest, Private Corporate Forest and private land owners to participate in this coordinated common effort to stabilize and then restore key Winter Deer Complexes throughout the Upper Peninsula.


No worries on ATV use on Plum Creek or any other paper company properties in my area. Can't speak for other areas but I've spoke to several Plum Creek personnel on the property in the decades hunting here and it's never an issue on their lands. Same with Kimberly Clark and Weyerhaeuser lands. 4x4 trucks, Jeeps and SxS vehicles all use the lands equally. Camping is allowed also.


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## B.Jarvinen (Jul 12, 2014)

Neither Plum Creek nor Weyerhaeuser own those lands any more. I would also strongly doubt Kimberly-Clark owns much, if any, land at all. Plum Creek sold it all to Weyerhaeuser who in turn sold it all to a small TIMO (Timber Investment Management Organization) out of Vermont - Lyme Timber - still a bit less than a year ago. 

https://www.lymetimber.com/portfolio/lyme-great-lakes-timberlands/

What their policies are on their CFR holdings I wouldn’t know. But when land changes hands, the past is often irrelevant. 


At least the Red Oak and Northern/Upland Pin Oak had an OK crop this year in some places. I doubt that the fairly rare UP Bur Oak did though, but possibly.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

B.Jarvinen said:


> Neither Plum Creek nor Weyerhaeuser own those lands any more. I would also strongly doubt Kimberly-Clark owns much, if any, land at all. Plum Creek sold it all to Weyerhaeuser who in turn sold it all to a small TIMO (Timber Investment Management Organization) out of Vermont - Lyme Timber - still a bit less than a year ago.
> 
> https://www.lymetimber.com/portfolio/lyme-great-lakes-timberlands/
> 
> ...


Thank you for that update. It's hard to keep track of who owns what public land up there annually. I knew Weyerhaeuser bought out Plum Creek but haven't heard a transaction since that one. Every so often I'll run into a regular C/O while I'm hunting. His name I'll not disclose but he's one of the best wildlife law officers I've ever dealt with. He typically keeps us up to date on changes. Haven't run into him in 3-4 years up there. At some point I'd think the logging would slow down as they've pretty much dessimated all the big woods that property has to offer


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## onebad800 (Apr 28, 2003)

Small logging operation started this weekend in my sons spot it was a bummer but it happens, reflecting on my 14 days I’ve spent in the UP this season I had a big lack of does in my area compared to years past and the sign showed it, had few bucks around however the deer sightings were single digits which is bad looks like I need to roam further away next year to find more sign. Like many I’ve hunted this particular spot since 2005 but have taken a buck 50% (2.5yr or older) of the 15yrs and passed some smaller ones. I think once the rifle guys showed up and all the baiting started it sent the deer to night feeding least around us. I told myself to not bait this season because I’ve seen every year how the nice bucks either disappear or only at night on cam, but I caved in hopes of keeping a hot doe around. Next year it’s no bait for me , will see how that pans out up there can’t be any worse than this season. Until next season


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

johnIV said:


> No worries on ATV use on Plum Creek or any other paper company properties in my area. Can't speak for other areas but I've spoke to several Plum Creek personnel on the property in the decades hunting here and it's never an issue on their lands. Same with Kimberly Clark and Weyerhaeuser lands. 4x4 trucks, Jeeps and SxS vehicles all use the lands equally. Camping is allowed also.


I may be wrong, but I think that the foot traffic only requirement is a State level statute for CFR lands.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

onebad800 said:


> Small logging operation started this weekend in my sons spot it was a bummer but it happens, reflecting on my 14 days I’ve spent in the UP this season I had a big lack of does in my area compared to years past and the sign showed it, had few bucks around however the deer sightings were single digits which is bad looks like I need to roam further away next year to find more sign. Like many I’ve hunted this particular spot since 2005 but have taken a buck 50% (2.5yr or older) of the 15yrs and passed some smaller ones. I think once the rifle guys showed up and all the baiting started it sent the deer to night feeding least around us. I told myself to not bait this season because I’ve seen every year how the nice bucks either disappear or only at night on cam, but I caved in hopes of keeping a hot doe around. Next year it’s no bait for me , will see how that pans out up there can’t be any worse than this season. Until next season


The recipe for restricted deer movement: abundant food sources and mild temps. combined with high winds. Your assessment is pretty accurate. Over the years I have come to view a mature buck having the mental abilities of a dog. They react very well to the stark changes of the territory they travel, particularly when Man shows up and his activity levels in the woods ramp-up.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Cork Dust said:


> I may be wrong, but I think that the foot traffic only requirement is a State level statute for CFR lands.


I'll look into it. I would have thought after almost 40 years of hunting this tract of land using quads for nearly 30 of them and spending numerous moments talking to DNR officers from the seat of my quad that it would have come up. They check us for ORV stickers and helmets each time we see them. I wouldn't think they'd let something like that slide. They don't in the Hiawatha lands.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Cork Dust said:


> I may be wrong, but I think that the foot traffic only requirement is a State level statute for CFR lands.


Vehicle access is at the option of the landowner. On some roads some timber companies do not seem to care, on others they put gates. FM


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Forest Meister said:


> Vehicle access is at the option of the landowner. On some roads some timber companies do not seem to care, on others they put gates. FM


Berms used by DNR when logging operations are in effect at times. Mostly open during logging. Logging isn't present during firearm deer season where I hunt.


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## HuronView (Oct 18, 2014)

johnIV said:


> Berms used by DNR when logging operations are in effect at times. Mostly open during logging. Logging isn't present during firearm deer season where I hunt.


It usually isn't present around our place (Houghton County) either. Our forester and logger had to delay our harvest by a year because road restrictions hadn't gone in effect soon enough to get all the logs out in one go. Still, this year, our neighbor was just finishing a clear cut of 80 acres AS rifle season started. Weird.

Clearly, active logging impacts deer movement, but I understood that the deer would come back as soon as the loggers quit for the day to browse on the tops. His was mostly red pine plantation, which made me think the deer would not prefer it for anything other than bedding. Now I wonder if that played a role in our reduced sightings this year. I chalked it up mostly to the wolves.


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## onebad800 (Apr 28, 2003)

We have had active loggers on opening day and week before, went right around our camp lucky for us we don’t hunt right next to camp, but they came in this year on thanksgiving day and worked all weekend.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

onebad800 said:


> We have had active loggers on opening day and week before, went right around our camp lucky for us we don’t hunt right next to camp, but they came in this year on thanksgiving day and worked all weekend.


Man that sucks


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

HuronView said:


> It usually isn't present around our place (Houghton County) either. Our forester and logger had to delay our harvest by a year because road restrictions hadn't gone in effect soon enough to get all the logs out in one go. Still, this year, our neighbor was just finishing a clear cut of 80 acres AS rifle season started. Weird.
> 
> Clearly, active logging impacts deer movement, but I understood that the deer would come back as soon as the loggers quit for the day to browse on the tops. His was mostly red pine plantation, which made me think the deer would not prefer it for anything other than bedding. Now I wonder if that played a role in our reduced sightings this year. I chalked it up mostly to the wolves.


On CFR lands, the MDNR is SUPPOSED to be notified of a planned cut at least a month in advance. MDNR riparian cuts policy is supposed to leave a minimum of a 150' buffer zone adjacent surface waters, a good place for the deer displaced by the logging to move and concentrate.

Did you inquire whether he would replant in red pine or another species, or simply let regeneration proceed on its own pace?


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## HuronView (Oct 18, 2014)

Cork Dust said:


> On CFR lands, the MDNR is SUPPOSED to be notified of a planned cut at least a month in advance. MDNR riparian cuts policy is supposed to leave a minimum of a 150' buffer zone adjacent surface waters, a good place for the deer displaced by the logging to move and concentrate.
> 
> Did you inquire whether he would replant in red pine or another species, or simply let regeneration proceed on its own pace?


Thanks for the reply! First, I am positive the land is not enrolled in CFR, and there is no way he left 150' between the last stick and year-round creek that goes through his property before it gets to ours. Sad for sure because the normally clear water was running orange like the Ontonagon River! I can't say whether a private harvest requires complicity with the same buffer standard that you cite. 

I have never met this neighbor, but he did keep some plantation standing. So, I assume he will replant, but I am happy with any new growth for the deer to browse. Our place is enrolled in QF, and we're targeting natural diversity as a replacement for what was destroyed by Spruce Budworm. We're in year two since our harvest, and the deer don't seem to have benefited meaningfully, but grouse, ermine, fisher, wolf and otter sightings are way up.

EDIT: I did, however, put a note in his mailbox and all other adjacent landowners prior to our harvest, and offered them the opportunity to walk the marked timber--as pseudo-open house, just to be neighborly. No replies from any neighbors; must be the WI plates.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

HuronView said:


> Thanks for the reply! First, I am positive the land is not enrolled in CFR, and there is no way he left 150' between the last stick and year-round creek that goes through his property before it gets to ours. Sad for sure because the normally clear water was running orange like the Ontonagon River! I can't say whether a private harvest requires complicity with the same buffer standard that you cite.
> 
> I have never met this neighbor, but he did keep some plantation standing. So, I assume he will replant, but I am happy with any new growth for the deer to browse. Our place is enrolled in QF, and we're targeting natural diversity as a replacement for what was destroyed by Spruce Budworm. We're in year two since our harvest, and the deer don't seem to have benefited meaningfully, but grouse, ermine, fisher, wolf and otter sightings are way up.
> 
> EDIT: I did, however, put a note in his mailbox and all other adjacent landowners prior to our harvest, and offered them the opportunity to walk the marked timber--as pseudo-open house, just to be neighborly. No replies from any neighbors; must be the WI plates.


If you manage for grouse, you manage for deer, so you are trending in the right direction based on those sightings. Canid predators don't do well when hunting in high stem count stands like clear-cut regrowth areas, so I hope your neighbor will allow natural regrowth, which should push aspen dominance. 

There are also some habitat management options via Forester contact within the UP Habitat Work Group's initiative, particularly if you're property is located near a Winter Deer Complex site. Here is the current map of active WDC's with their management plans for the U.P.

DNR - Deer Wintering Complexes (michigan.gov)


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## HuronView (Oct 18, 2014)

Cork Dust said:


> If you manage for grouse, you manage for deer, so you are trending in the right direction based on those sightings. Canid predators don't do well when hunting in high stem count stands like clear-cut regrowth areas, so I hope your neighbor will allow natural regrowth, which should push aspen dominance.
> 
> There are also some habitat management options via Forester contact within the UP Habitat Work Group's initiative, particularly if you're property is located near a Winter Deer Complex site. Here is the current map of active WDC's with their management plans for the U.P.
> 
> DNR - Deer Wintering Complexes (michigan.gov)


The aspen are vigorous, that's for sure. I hope the oaks and white pine we had the loggers leave regenerate as well. 

~80 of our 190 acres falls within the Sturgeon River DWC. It's odd that in all the discussions I have had with our forester, the topic of UP Habitat WG, and management options never came up. I was (am) pretty ignorant to forestry, which is why I trust (pay) the forester to take my strategic objectives and recommend tactical strategies to get there. Given that most of our conversations are about improving habitat for all species, but mostly deer, I am concerned I may not be with the right consultant. I would definitely be interested in tapping into some of the grants that target improving DWC quality.


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

HuronView said:


> The aspen are vigorous, that's for sure. I hope the oaks and white pine we had the loggers leave regenerate as well.
> 
> ~80 of our 190 acres falls within the Sturgeon River DWC. It's odd that in all the discussions I have had with our forester, the topic of UP Habitat WG, and management options never came up. I was (am) pretty ignorant to forestry, which is why I trust (pay) the forester to take my strategic objectives and recommend tactical strategies to get there. Given that most of our conversations are about improving habitat for all species, but mostly deer, I am concerned I may not be with the right consultant. I would definitely be interested in tapping into some of the grants that target improving DWC quality.


You must be working with a private forester...

DNR - UP Deer Habitat Improvement Grant Program (michigan.gov)

DNR seeks applicants for $100K available in UP Deer Habitat Improvement Partnership grants (uppermichiganssource.com)

Bill Scullon is now the Region 1 acting supervisor, after Minzey's 'sudden" retirement. The next meeting of the UP. HWG is scheduled for a ZOOM based session on Dec. 9th.

I would encourage you to contact the MDNR office in Baraga and have a conversation with either the Forester or the Wildlife Biologist and inquire about deer improvement grant opportunities. You also have a parcel size and WDC proximity distance that qualifies for a consultant forester field contact to review your management plan free-of-charge as well as make some long-term recommendations.

I used to own a camp north of were the Sturgeon crosses US-41, just south of L'Anse on the edge of the Menge Creek WDC complex, south of Bald Mountain-what you see in the distance as you drive south along Keweenaw Bay by the State Park up on the southern horizon. Sold it after the 1995-96 winter kill disaster.


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