# Puppies



## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Jay Johnson said:


> Female:
> Bred to a brother of this dog:
> 
> Or if that doesn't work out, another option is Jerry Kolters Northwoods Blue Ox which is a field trial bred dog:
> ...


Jay,

We have Oscar on our "list" and intend to breed something to him if these first few litters he has sired pan out. He is a strong bird finder with exceptional mental qualities. We spend a great deal of time researching stud dogs dogs from across the nation and have never limited ourselves to what is available locally. Oscar is a dog I consider among the best prospective stud dogs in the nation. Of course, he is still young and his first 3 or 4 litters are just starting to offer some evidence of his ability as a stud. He is a great individual. Hopefully he will prove to be a great producer.

Chief was also a good one. I am pretty sure I gave him his first shooting dog placement in the woods. Chief was out of First Rate who was a fantastic and under appreciated when he was still alive. I wish we had gone to him more. Jerry bred to him at least twice and we bred to him twice. Lloyd also had great success breeding to First Rate. He was a HB Shooting Dog but was probably more popular as a stud among walking trial guys. Long Gone Agnes who I believe won 8 cover dog championships and 4 or 5 R/U CHs was out of First Rate. He produced 30 winners but more importantly he was known as a superior bird dog and passed those traits to a high percentage of his offspring. 

First Rate is a dog I would look for close up in a pedigree. Agnes was the most famous but there were a number of others. Some of them trial dogs, some not. Lloyd also had LG Mittens. Tony Bly had Stokleys Dar B. Bob Sorri had Bobby Blue who I really liked and would have used but he was sterile. Jerry had Blue Chief, Blue Silk, and Blue Sapphire. Bob Kluger bred to him and produced Waymakers Twister. I would imagine you know Dean Renneke. His dog Smiley was out of First Rate. I hunted many times over Smiley on the prairie and in the woods and bred to him. He was a fantastic grouse dog. We also bred to another son, First Rates Outback twice. He was not a well known dog (long story) but he produced really good bird dogs. We have a 2 year old out of him that we intend to use in our program. (photo below).


----------



## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Scott, when you say First Rate was known as a superior bird dog and passed those traits to a high percentage of his offspring, how is that determined? Do you base that on trial results of his offspring or some other method to track the success of the offspring? And how is it determined that it was the stud that passed on the trait and not the dam? Just curious, as breeding seems too random to draw such observations. We don't hear the word "prepotent" used that much these days. 

Which present day setter studs would you say demonstrate prepotency in your experience -- your own studs included, if you'd care to comment?


----------



## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes, Oscar is on my short list of studs. I have liked him from the time I set eyes on him as a puppy. That said I have a bunch of grouse hunting buddies that are pressuring me to breed to a dog named Rufus owned by one of them. He is a nice dog and carriers 50% of his blood in the old Mi grouse gun dog lines like my dog does. THis is likely what I'll do as I have a waiting list for pups if I go this route and I am hoping for a little less dog than what i have in my current Meg.


----------



## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> Yes, Oscar is on my short list of studs. I have liked him from the time I set eyes on him as a puppy. That said I have a bunch of grouse hunting buddies that are pressuring me to breed to a dog named Rufus owned by one of them. He is a nice dog and carriers 50% of his blood in the old Mi grouse gun dog lines like my dog does. THis is likely what I'll do as I have a waiting list for pups if I go this route and I am hoping for a little less dog than what i have in my current Meg.


 Are you sure you shouldn't wait another year? :evilsmile
Got any pics of Rufus?


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Scott just get a 3 hole box
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay, Sadie the dog that Tom has from Rick is significantly closer than Kate was. Tom describes her as an old man's dog. However even at 79 Tom has more hunt in him than most and I think Sadie would be the dog of a lifetime for most. 
My two favorite memories of Andy both occurred at his home. First, Walt Cottrell and I were butchering a ewe for meat in his backward. The yard backed up to a swail. When we were up to our elbows is guts we were surprised by a shotgun blast. We looked up to see Andy proudly walking out in the yard to pick up a freshly dispatched Muskrat. The part that set me back was that he shot it with a Model 21. At that point in my life a model 21 was the top of heap. 
My other memory is of him trying to teach Walt and I to hit flying targets with a bow. He did it effortlessly but neither of us ever got the hang of it. I don't remember Patch. I had a lot to do with Kate during her stays at the Veterinary Clinic so I remember her well. Walt and Andy were close and stayed in contact until his passing. Tom readily discusses the old days, the old guys, the old dogs, it would be great if he wrote the story. Al Stewart was a grad student back then too, so he could probably write the story as well. mac


----------



## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Jay,

You know what you are doing and have a good perspective on the various dogs in play. I brought it up because us Setter folk tend to focus on the portion of the pedigree we know and we want to attribute the good traits to the portion we know. Chief and Oscar have a common denominator that I thought I would mention given his track record and impact on our breed. 

Keith, I want to be careful with discussing prepotent studs for three reasons. One is the question of prepotent for what? We first have to define the exact outcome we seek. Two, there is no way to avoid someone feeling slighted. Prepotency is a term I VERY consistently see used/defined incorrectly. The first two speak for themselves. When I see prepotency discussed on bulletin boards the context is usually how many times was the stud used and how many winners did he produce. There are two problems with this logic as I see it. The correct denominator is not how many times the dog was bred. The number of offspring that were trialed is the appropriate denominator. If you were looking for a trial dog which stud would you define as the more prepotent?

Dog A  Produced 125 litters and 1,000 pups
50 pups were given an opportunity to trial
25 were winners. He produced only 1 winner per 5 litters and only 2.5% of total progeny.
Or is the correct measure 50% of the dogs that were trialed.

Dog B - Produced 50 litters and 400 pups
50 pups were given an opportunity to trial
10 were winners. He produced only 1 winner per 5 litters and only 2.5% of total progeny.
He also produced one winner for every 5 litters but and 2.5% of total progeny won.
However, only 20% of those given an opportunity won compared to 50% for Dog A.

I think you and I would agree Dog A is the better producer of trial dogs but they way most people want to quantify prepotency, Dog B would be calculate to be more prepotent. 

None of this has much to do with what I call prepotent. I define prepotency as the ability of a stud to pass those traits I value most on a consistent basis. That does not mean you can breed any old brood matron and get great dogs. Thats way too much to ask.

We have only had five males of our own we used at stud and one of them was a Red Setter. We have paid a lot of stud fees and flown a lot of dogs to get to the stud dog we felt were the best fit and advanced our program. I recently sold a dog that was a phenomenal wild bird dog and he was as stylish running and pointing as they come. And, it was not like he did not produce great bird dogs. He did but the size and build varied considerably. About 10-15 of them were also not as biddable and easy to train as our other dogs. It was a supreme disappointment to let him go because he was a great individual and an absolute pleasure to watch him do it on wild birds both on the prairie and in the woods. BTW  I literally set him back 4 times when breaking him. He was 16 months old and he was dead broke from that point forward. I placed him in a shooting dog stake as a derby even though his range was quite moderate. His application and bird work was good enough to get him placed. He is also a good natural retriever. He is in Newfoundland now. You have to let some really good ones go sometimes to advance a program and I assure you it sucks when you come to that point. He is pictured below.

SRB


----------



## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Mac:

I think Tom and Dave have picked up two dogs of Ricks breeding in the last decade. One must be about 4-6 years old that came from a litter that Jeff Smith raised. The second is a younger dog maybe 3 years old out of a litter that Rick raised. I hope to breed to a male from this younger or more recent litter.

Funny you should mention Andy and a model 21 Winchester. I once owned Andy's 20 gauge model 21. Andy sold it to an acqauintance of both Tom P and Andy named Bud Tordoff. Bud is now deceased but he was the Dean on MN grouse hunters. He owned a dog named Molly that was out Of Prawdziks Rocky and Prawdziks Lady. He and this dog and one of her offspring named Kate are what caused me to convert from a flushing dog grouse hunter to pointing dogs. 

Anyway, Bud purchased a 20 gauge model 21 from Andy. Bud sent it to his friend Don Allen who later on became the owner of Dakota Arms to be re-stocked in a magnificent piece of NZ walnut. Well not only did Don restock the gun, he totally modified it and when it was returned to Bud it looked like a scalloped back English boxlock. The work was beautiful but Bud was heartboken as it just wasn't Andy's gun anymore. 

He finally decided to givie it to his son who is my next door neighbor. After a few years his son offered it to me. I sold everything I had to buy it. 

Now I owned a sublime custom 20 gauge model 21 that had been owned by two famous grouse and woodcock hunters that I had a world of respect for. 

I hunted and shot the gun well for a few years. One year a friend from OH visited for a hunt. I was runnng my brace of Kelly and Per. The first day of our hunt we hunted 6 hours and had 48 grouse flushes. My friend killed four and I killed six that day including a pure double for my fifth and sixth birds.

The next morning we got started early. The action continued and Per was digging up grouse left and right. By 11 AM it was getting warm and we diecided to head into town for lunch. When we arrived back at my truck form hunting, I put my 21 up on the topper, loaded the dogs, and headed the 15 minutes into the country bar to grab lunch.

When we arrived I suggested we open the topper windows to give the dogs some air. First thing I saw when I opened up was my limp shotgun case on top of the kennel. My knees litereally buckled! We looked evryewhere in the truck, then rushed back to where we had parked. 

My biggest fear was that I had driven over it as I had backed up at the parking lot. Well after hours of looking including the use of a metal detector, and scouring several miles of road ditch, the gun was declared gone!

So I have the dubious distinction of being the idiot that lost Andy Ammann's model 21. Maybe I'm related to Nash Buckingham.


----------



## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Scott. I like your definition of prepotency, and it would seem to me that the only way to gauge prepotency based on that definition is to either raise the studs and offspring youself or have a close working relationship with the stud's owner, who has the dedication you have to do it right and make the tough calls.

Pictures aren't always worth a 1000 words when it comes to this context. Hopefully those looking to buy puppies will learn to ask the right questions from those professionals like yourself who take the time to post well-reasoned responses on these boards.


----------



## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay Johnson said:


> Mac:
> 
> I think Tom and Dave have picked up two dogs of Ricks breeding in the last decade. One must be about 4-6 years old that came from a litter that Jeff Smith raised. The second is a younger dog maybe 3 years old out of a litter that Rick raised. I hope to breed to a male from this younger or more recent litter.
> 
> ...


 
That must have hurt!!! mac


----------



## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> Jay,
> 
> You know what you are doing and have a good perspective on the various dogs in play. I brought it up because us Setter folk tend to focus on the portion of the pedigree we know and we want to attribute the good traits to the portion we know. Chief and Oscar have a common denominator that I thought I would mention given his track record and impact on our breed.
> 
> ...


Scott that may "suck" letting one like that go, but it also shows the level of your breeding program.
My thinking has always been the weak link has to go. When you are down to cutting good dogs off the string your program has progressed pretty well.


----------



## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay, I spoke with Walt Cottrell tonight and he told me that he was quite sure that Andy did not keep a pup from the 75 litter. He continued to hunt Kate as his only dog. Several years later Kate developed cancer and was euthanized. His next dog as Walt remembered was Gypsy probably born around 1980. Walt remembered one more dog but not much about it. As you may know Andy was born in 1910 so your 1995 note was written at the end of one of the truly distinguished careers in the uplands. You're lucky to have it. I read part of Andy's book on Michigan Sharptails and Prarie Chickens that Andy had given to Walt with a wonderful inscription this fall. I felt like I was holding the holy grail. In closing Walt did say that Andy thought very highly of the Wicksall's dogs and that they were a large part of the gene pool for the DNR dogs. mac 
Next time I see Al I'll get his 2cents too.


----------



## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay, The more we talk about your pups the more I want one. mac


----------



## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike McDonald said:


> Jay, The more we talk about your pups the more I want one. mac


Got to get some on the ground first! Here is a few more photos of the potential mother to be.

On our favorite Spring Creek waiting for the Sulpurs:

























A limit over points as a yearling:








And another:









Got one boss!:









Come on Rick hurry up!









Partners:

















And personality:


----------



## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

crosswind said:


> Scott that may "suck" letting one like that go, but it also shows the level of your breeding program.
> My thinking has always been the weak link has to go. When you are down to cutting good dogs off the string your program has progressed pretty well.


Scott,

The frustrating part is he was a superior individual. He came from a great producing female that I sent across the country to breed to a male I really liked and it all came together. He was so accomplished on wilds birds at a very young age that we bred him twice within a couple months at a year and a half and kept all the offspring. Kind of the Wehle method. We started all of them and they looked very good and the ones we sold to grouse hunters were effective on grouse their first fall and have turned into great dogs. Subsequent litters even produced dogs that prompted letters from very experienced pointing dog buffs that were estatic with his offspring. Unfortunately, the physical size and range was just not predictable. As I am sure you know, that creates a real problem in trying to recommend the litter that exactly fits the ideals of a prospective owner. 

SRB


----------



## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> Scott,
> 
> The frustrating part is he was a superior individual. He came from a great producing female that I sent across the country to breed to a male I really liked and it all came together. He was so accomplished on wilds birds at a very young age that we bred him twice within a couple months at a year and a half and kept all the offspring. Kind of the Wehle method. We started all of them and they looked very good and the ones we sold to grouse hunters were effective on grouse their first fall and have turned into great dogs. Subsequent litters even produced dogs that prompted letters from very experienced pointing dog buffs that were estatic with his offspring. Unfortunately, the physical size and range was just not predictable. As I am sure you know, that creates a real problem in trying to recommend the litter that exactly fits the ideals of a prospective owner.
> 
> SRB


 Yep been through that process before. I got rid of a female that produced a national champion when bred to Fritz. A couple of the offspring were outstanding but some of the other offspring were too big and just didn't have the athletic build I want in my GSP's.


----------



## pikestalker (Dec 30, 2010)

Do you have a price set for these pups yet? I have a 12 year old GSP. She is really starting to slow down. I would like to start thinking about another pup.

Tom


----------



## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

crosswind said:


> Yep been through that process before. I got rid of a female that produced a national champion when bred to Fritz. A couple of the offspring were outstanding but some of the other offspring were too big and just didn't have the athletic build I want in my GSP's.


 Are you referring to Deedee?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> Mac:
> 
> I think Tom and Dave have picked up two dogs of Ricks breeding in the last decade. One must be about 4-6 years old that came from a litter that Jeff Smith raised. The second is a younger dog maybe 3 years old out of a litter that Rick raised. I hope to breed to a male from this younger or more recent litter.
> 
> ...


Jay. I love your stories but, that one literally made me sick to my stomach. Man that must have left a bad taste in your mouth for months.


----------



## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Good rule that our family goes by, "first in, last out." The gun is the last thing taken out of the truck at the beginning of the hunt and the very first thing put in the truck upon return. Improves safety and prevents driving off with a gun leaning against a tree or bumper. 

Great story though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

