# Asian Carp meeting and conference call



## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

Boozer said:


> What you heard was Mark questioning the CG's statement that no new invasive species have entered the Great Lakes in the past 5 years via ballast water as 100% of the "salties" entering the Great Lakes are now inspected to ensure they have no water in their ballasts when they enter.
> 
> Mark's statement was that this was not true and he referenced a species that I now cannot remember the name of, I am pretty sure it was a species of small shrimp/mysis.
> 
> ...


 Could be the Bloody shrimp or the New Zealand mudsnail, quite new. As far as any real threat, all invasive species eat something, any ecosystem regardless of size can only generate x amount of food, so any invasive is a negative impact, numbers determine how bad. The loud guy "muskie etc... I believe was Capt. Nemo, he disrupted another meeting in Chicago, I recognized his voice, muskie guide in Wisconsin I believe, he screamed Capt Nemo several times. I think his hearts in the right place. I also listened to the meeting, I heard long term biologist employment plans, not much that will affect the asian carp population, and your right, bigheads generally show up first, ahead of the silvers. But so far everywhere else they ain't far behind!


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

walranger5 said:


> Could be the Bloody shrimp or the New Zealand mudsnail, quite new. As far as any real threat, all invasive species eat something, any ecosystem regardless of size can only generate x amount of food, so any invasive is a negative impact, numbers determine how bad. The loud guy "muskie etc... I believe was Capt. Nemo, he disrupted another meeting in Chicago, I recognized his voice, muskie guide in Wisconsin I believe, he screamed Capt Nemo several times. I think his hearts in the right place. I also listened to the meeting, I heard long term biologist employment plans, not much that will affect the asian carp population, and your right, bigheads generally show up first, ahead of the silvers. But so far everywhere else they ain't far behind!


Bloody Mysis Shrimp.

I agree his heart is in the right place, I just felt he went a bit overboard and talking when other concerned anglers were trying to listen and speak themselves was not a very professional way to act, however he made many valid points as well. Essentially his main issue was trying to cram a 30 minute speech into 2 minutes, was very hard to follow.

Yes, definitely long term biologist employment would be gained from this, but is that necessarily a bad thing? 

I guess my main thought here is, I feel they are researching everything they need to and then some, once they finish their research which they say will take place in the next 9-12 months, then it's time to act and depending on what they do, it will be a good time to make an informed decision on whether they are trying to actually solve the issue or not. At this time, I personally don't feel like I can say they are doing a good or bad job, all I can say is they are obviously learning more everyday about these fish and are continuing to strive for a better understanding of them.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

Boozer said:


> Bloody Mysis Shrimp.
> 
> I agree his heart is in the right place, I just felt he went a bit overboard and talking when other concerned anglers were trying to listen and speak themselves was not a very professional way to act, however he made many valid points as well. Essentially his main issue was trying to cram a 30 minute speech into 2 minutes, was very hard to follow.
> 
> ...


 Well, they mentioned lamprey style control, which With respect I would point out mainly attacks juvenile lamprey, (larvae) the FWS figured out quite some time ago that the adults, because they can't control nature, floods, logs and stuff allow adults to get past barriers electric or otherwise. An article 3/27/11 Lamprey numbers shot up again last year in lake Michigan, on the Manistique allowed lampreys to swim upstream and reproduce by the millions, they will build a barrier there next year. 50 years of this control type, lampreys have been on the rise for a decade. I would also point out, larval lampreys are trapped in the mud, baby asian carp are not. Would you poison and entire river system, all back waters and tributaries included? That's what you would have to do. Would you poison lake Michigan? Put barriers in front of every river or creek? The rip current in Lake Michigan may be all they need to spawn? Just because they haven't down it before, doesn't mean they can't. Their expert chapman says they're not supposed to be able to do what they're downing now down south. The point is attacking the juvenile asian carp would be the most effective way to control them, because they're mobile, predators are the best fit. The most vulnerable stage of any fish is the larval stage. The lamprey control is winning and losing, one breach or successful asian carp spawn you truly have millions to deal with, and adults are very good at avoiding nets. Trying to contain them is fine, but it wont control them. Only predators can do that, natures law.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

One problem...

The Mississippi River native predatory species populations are BOOMING because of the massive amount of food the juvenile Asian Carp provide, yet they have not been able to control these Carp at all, so how is it that you expect Perch in Lake Michigan to do it?


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

Boozer said:


> One problem...
> 
> The Mississippi River native predatory species populations are BOOMING because of the massive amount of food the juvenile Asian Carp provide, yet they have not been able to control these Carp at all, so how is it that you expect Perch in Lake Michigan to do it?


 Which predators would that be? The bass tournaments are gone because of asian carp in illinois. They still have comercial catfishing, which might be their best large predator given the muddy water, but they're over fished. Bass eat them but can't generate the numbers. Quit thinking about lake Michigan what happens out there is bupkis. Control of the spawning/nursery areas is where it has to happen. Perch can generate the numbers, can and will feed in the backwater areas, river mouths where they'll be. Having our socalled "top predator" out in lake Michigan (salmon) doesn't seem to be working out. Alewives can keep Perch and Walleye knocked down for 50 years, they ain't doing it out in the lake mostly in the spawning/nusery areas. (Pelagic Planktivores) Same as Asian carp. Besides increasing native fish predators, does not interfere with any other asian carp plans. But native predators work for free, biologists do not!


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

walranger5 said:


> Which predators would that be? The bass tournaments are gone because of asian carp in illinois. They still have comercial catfishing, which might be their best large predator given the muddy water, but they're over fished. Bass eat them but can't generate the numbers. Quit thinking about lake Michigan what happens out there is bupkis. Control of the spawning/nursery areas is where it has to happen. Perch can generate the numbers, can and will feed in the backwater areas, river mouths where they'll be. Having our socalled "top predator" out in lake Michigan (salmon) doesn't seem to be working out. Alewives can keep Perch and Walleye knocked down for 50 years, they ain't doing it out in the lake mostly in the spawning/nusery areas. (Pelagic Planktivores) Same as Asian carp. Besides increasing native fish predators, does not interfere with any other asian carp plans. But native predators work for free, biologists do not!


I believe if you did your homework, you would realize the tournaments were not closed due to the lack of Bass, but more so to do with the fact they cannot run 80mph across the water when there is a risk of 100 pound fish coming flying out of the water and hitting the anglers, at that speed, there is a serious health risk obviously...

Essentially man, I have been watching your comments on here for months, I admire your passion and do believe we need to take care of our native species of fish populations, Perch being one of them, but what is it exactly you want to do? Stock Perch by the millions even though there isn't enough food for them currently? There is already a healthy Perch fishery in much of Lake Michigan, IF Asian Carp got in which we all hope will not happen, there will be plenty of predators there to eat the juvenile fish and as the amount of available forage increases, so will the populations of species like Perch.

You are making it sound as if we need to stock Perch by the hundreds of thousands, give you Poseidon's staff and send you out there to train and command them as if they are some sort of army just waiting to destroy Asian Carp.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

Boozer said:


> I believe if you did your homework, you would realize the tournaments were not closed due to the lack of Bass, but more so to do with the fact they cannot run 80mph across the water when there is a risk of 100 pound fish coming flying out of the water and hitting the anglers, at that speed, there is a serious health risk obviously...
> 
> Essentially man, I have been watching your comments on here for months, I admire your passion and do believe we need to take care of our native species of fish populations, Perch being one of them, but what is it exactly you want to do? Stock Perch by the millions even though there isn't enough food for them currently? There is already a healthy Perch fishery in much of Lake Michigan, IF Asian Carp got in which we all hope will not happen, there will be plenty of predators there to eat the juvenile fish and as the amount of available forage increases, so will the populations of species like Perch.
> 
> You are making it sound as if we need to stock Perch by the hundreds of thousands, give you Poseidon's staff and send you out there to train and command them as if they are some sort of army just waiting to destroy Asian Carp.


 I did my homework, and the Illinois DNR said the Asian Carp wiped out the bass. The dominate fish prior to asian carp was common carp, actually help feed asian carp by throwing food up into the water column, not a predator. The only fish "booming" down yonder is Asian Carp. In the carp plan, they want to disrupt the spawn attempts of asian carp, using bubbles, noise, lights, shocking? Think that will work? Alewives and other invasive species intercept native spawns by starvation or predation, deads, dead. Why would the so called citizen advisory committee pass a resolution against planting Perch ANYWHERE in Lake Michigan? I have a copy, had it for awhile. Native fish are not getting good recruitment, or spawns, why not help them? Plenty of food for Perch, they eat zebra/Quagga mussels big problem they say, lets get rid of them then, let the Perch do it. Perch retain the least amount of PCB than any other fish in the great lakes, best choice. Perch also eat most of the rest, turn them loose! They planted salmon to control alewives, but no good for the rest. Why not plant Perch? The facts and science back it up, it's done elsewhere to restore fish populations, why not here? Perch don't need to be trained they know exactly what to do, they need sufficient numbers, they need to survive the spawn to do that. I don't need poseidons staff, only a permit, and the selfish people to except reality, and see the facts in front of their eyes, we need no more studies. We have millions of dollars worth we don't use now, already paid for. The carp don't need a hundred miles to spawn and there's lots of food for them. Don't believe me? That's your choice, the truth will probably surprise you then, Aaaaand the alewives are still an invasive species.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

You have officially lost me man, you keep taking small parts of statements and facts and warping them to fit your ideas...

Good luck with your Perch!


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

walranger5 said:


> I did my homework, and the Illinois DNR said the Asian Carp wiped out the bass. The dominate fish prior to asian carp was common carp, actually help feed asian carp by throwing food up into the water column, not a predator. The only fish "booming" down yonder is Asian Carp. In the carp plan, they want to disrupt the spawn attempts of asian carp, using bubbles, noise, lights, shocking? Think that will work? Alewives and other invasive species intercept native spawns by starvation or predation, deads, dead. Why would the so called citizen advisory committee pass a resolution against planting Perch ANYWHERE in Lake Michigan? I have a copy, had it for awhile. Native fish are not getting good recruitment, or spawns, why not help them? Plenty of food for Perch, they eat zebra/Quagga mussels big problem they say, lets get rid of them then, let the Perch do it. Perch retain the least amount of PCB than any other fish in the great lakes, best choice. Perch also eat most of the rest, turn them loose! They planted salmon to control alewives, but no good for the rest. Why not plant Perch? *The facts and science back it up, it's done elsewhere to restore fish populations*, why not here? Perch don't need to be trained they know exactly what to do, they need sufficient numbers, they need to survive the spawn to do that. I don't need poseidons staff, only a permit, and the selfish people to except reality, and see the facts in front of their eyes, we need no more studies. We have millions of dollars worth we don't use now, already paid for. The carp don't need a hundred miles to spawn and there's lots of food for them. Don't believe me? That's your choice, the truth will probably surprise you then, Aaaaand the alewives are still an invasive species.


 Well, since you wouldn't do it the last dozen times I have asked, I doubt you will this time either. But what the hell. WHERE IS THIS DATA? WHAT FACTS? CITE SOMETHING SO IT CAN BE CONFIRMED.


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## Carpmaster (Apr 1, 2004)

wartfroggy said:


> Well, since you wouldn't do it the last dozen times I have asked, I doubt you will this time either. But what the hell. WHERE IS THIS DATA? WHAT FACTS? CITE SOMETHING SO IT CAN BE CONFIRMED.


Australian Perch wasn't it?


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

Carpmaster said:


> Australian Perch wasn't it?


 Austrailian Perch, which are really Auatralian Bass, but kinda look like perch, but not really, just a little bit maybe. But yeah, they did eat some baby carp in a pond. So if Australian Bass ate some baby carp in a pond, and they kinda sorta maybe look a little like a perch, then perch will save us and kill all of the carp babies....so planting baby perch will save the day, except there isn't enough food available to baby perch to grow into big perch. Zooplankton levels are low, due to the ZEBRA MUSSELS. So, does that mean we need to plant 12-14" perch?


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

Boozer said:


> You have officially lost me man, you keep taking small parts of statements and facts and warping them to fit your ideas...
> 
> Good luck with your Perch!


 Big fish eat little fish, larval fish are the most vulnerable, they will be in the warm water areas. We don't have a healthy Perch population, we have a healthy invasive species population, and growing. Many studies say, if you have too many small fish, (plankton eaters) add big predators. Zebra mussels are not fish, but we have predators that are "bigger" just not enough. It's well documented Perch eat Zebra mussels. So???


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

wartfroggy said:


> Austrailian Perch, which are really Auatralian Bass, but kinda look like perch, but not really, just a little bit maybe. But yeah, they did eat some baby carp in a pond. So if Australian Bass ate some baby carp in a pond, and they kinda sorta maybe look a little like a perch, then perch will save us and kill all of the carp babies....so planting baby perch will save the day, except there isn't enough food available to baby perch to grow into big perch. Zooplankton levels are low, due to the ZEBRA MUSSELS. So, does that mean we need to plant 12-14" perch?


 No, according to Wisconsin DNR Perch start eating Zebra mussels at 2 inches, their favorite food according to them. We can create enough zooplankton real easy, in safe areas or a pond to get them started, just get them started. They don't plant salmon needing zooplankton do they? 2 inches seems to be the minimum. Ohio DNR " Zebra mussels and gobies control most of the food until native fish reach 2 inches, then they become the food" Whatever size we need can be done, that's not the problem.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

wartfroggy said:


> Well, since you wouldn't do it the last dozen times I have asked, I doubt you will this time either. But what the hell. WHERE IS THIS DATA? WHAT FACTS? CITE SOMETHING SO IT CAN BE CONFIRMED.


 Well search STOCKING YELLOW PERCH, you should find several examples, that's how I found it. They're stocking 2 million Perch a year in Lake Erie, that fact was put out there. I know you don't like searches, but it is the best way to get multiple FACTS. Also search COMMON CARP CONTROL USING NATIVE PREDATORS. All the facts you need. Regardless, there should no reason we can't help the Perch survive their spawn attempts, no reason at all. We know alewives and other invasive are eating them, so we keep them away from them, simple. But it seems some people are more afraid of the Perch, than any other fish, including the Asian Carp? Asian Carp and zebra mussels are the problem, perhaps one day you'll see that. Thanks for your help.


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

walranger5 said:


> Well search STOCKING YELLOW PERCH, you should find several examples, that's how I found it. They're stocking 2 million Perch a year in Lake Erie, that fact was put out there. I know you don't like searches, but it is the best way to get multiple FACTS. Also search COMMON CARP CONTROL USING NATIVE PREDATORS. All the facts you need.


I love searches. You are right, they are the best way to find info. But, I also know you don't like these high tech computers and those tricky cut and paste features. Well, learn how to do it. Post a friggin link to these studies that you say are everywhere, instead of just telling people what to search for. If I search "stocking yellow perch", I get 137,000 hits. So, I should just sort through those to find the 1 paper that you were looking at? Get a clue. Post a link. Quit throwing out quotes without backing them up. [/QUOTE]



walranger5 said:


> But it seems some people are more afraid of the Perch, than any other fish, including the Asian Carp?


 I don't think that anyone here is "afraid" of perch. It is just that most of the people on here have the common sense to see that it won't work as well as you like to think. Will perch eat some carp. Sure. Will it be enough to control them, highly doubtful. 



walranger5 said:


> Asian Carp and zebra mussels are the problem, perhaps one day you'll see that.


Maybe, someday, you will see that yourself. It seems that to you, zebra mussels aren't a problem at all. For you, it all goes back to Salmon and Alewives, and your favorite perch.


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

walranger5 said:


> No, according to Wisconsin DNR Perch start eating Zebra mussels at 2 inches, their favorite food according to them.


 Sure, perch will eat small or undeveloped zebra mussels. But, it would be pretty tough for them to survive on zebra mussels alone. And they aren't out there eating big ones, they can't crush the shells. 



walranger5 said:


> We can create enough zooplankton real easy, in safe areas or a pond to get them started, just get them started.


 So we are going to grow zooplankton to plant in the lakes, to feed the perch that you just planted? Seriously? Or are you thinking of dumping a bunch of phosphorus into the lakes to trigger a big bloom? Come on....seriously? 



walranger5 said:


> They don't plant salmon needing zooplankton do they? 2 inches seems to be the minimum.


First, salmon grow alot faster than a perch. Alot faster. Second, at about 2", a perch is still eating alot of zooplanton and other aquatic invertebrates.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

I think this dude is getting prescribed too many meds or is on some hard drugs or something, he just changes facts, makes things up and uses whatever fairy tale land logic he can make up to fit his ideas...


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## speydude (Apr 22, 2011)

Boozer said:


> One problem...
> 
> The Mississippi River native predatory species populations are BOOMING because of the massive amount of food the juvenile Asian Carp provide, yet they have not been able to control these Carp at all, so how is it that you expect Perch in Lake Michigan to do it?



That statement needs further explaining. How can both species be doing so well? Is there a link to this data somewhere? Provide if possible


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

speydude said:


> That statement needs further explaining. How can both species be doing so well? Is there a link to this data somewhere? Provide if possible


MJYP/Speydud,

There is no data that I know of "have never looked though", just reports from anglers whom live near areas where these Carp are breeding, they all say they are catching more and bigger smallmouth, walleye, etc... and say you see these predators just devouring juvenile Asian Carp. Which what do you expect, they produce insane numbers of juvenile fish, they eat the food other bait fish require to survive and these predators have to eat something, common sense says they are going to begin feeding on them.

Is this the ideal situation or what I want to happen, certainly not, but when a large amount of bait fish are present "which juvenile Carp most certainly are" predators which eat bait fish will most certainly have more food, from there common sense takes over.

Hope your guided trip went well.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

wartfroggy said:


> I love searches. You are right, they are the best way to find info. But, I also know you don't like these high tech computers and those tricky cut and paste features. Well, learn how to do it. Post a friggin link to these studies that you say are everywhere, instead of just telling people what to search for. If I search "stocking yellow perch", I get 137,000 hits. So, I should just sort through those to find the 1 paper that you were looking at? Get a clue. Post a link. Quit throwing out quotes without backing them up.


I don't think that anyone here is "afraid" of perch. It is just that most of the people on here have the common sense to see that it won't work as well as you like to think. Will perch eat some carp. Sure. Will it be enough to control them, highly doubtful. I did say several examples on stocking Perch. 


Maybe, someday, you will see that yourself. It seems that to you, zebra mussels aren't a problem at all. For you, it all goes back to Salmon and Alewives, and your favorite perch.[/QUOTE] There was a typo, I meant to say Asian carp and zebra mussels are NOT the problem, saw it right after I hit submit. You keep demanding facts for things that are common knowlege. You have the same problem the DNR has, trying to divert attention away from the truth. You want a fact? Regarding Lake Huron. It appears nature is reworking the predator/prey relationships and sportfishing opportunities are improving. There seems to be a native strike-back syndrome taking place out there it's really pretty cool. You probably think I said that, but it was Jim Johnson DNR fisheries research bilogist Alpena Michigan outdoor news 4/29/11 article by Bill Parker, front page. Nature is reversing what we screwed up, this was done by restoring the Walleyes, to get rid of the alewives. Saginaw bay recovery plan MDNR. What they fail to mention also, is even if we get rid of all invasive species including mussels and asian carp, we would still have to keep the alewives as the dominate fish, or salmon catch the BKD. To do that the native population has to be keep low (or in a weakened condition) to protect the alewives, the weaker the native fish population, the stronger the invasive species population, pretty standard stuff. You see they're are not stopping us and every other group from planting Perch because it wont work, they're stopping us because it will work! You have proven many times over what the real problem is, I don't blame you I blame the DNR. The carp experts say "In areas where carp have not yet become a problem, a high predator base should be maintained for predation on young carp" This is where we are at, Asian carp in the lake, waiting them to pull off a spawn. Trying to save the alewives is not helping solve our invasive species problem. The problem isn't invasive species control, that's easy, the problem is us!


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