# Wind Chill and Ice Formation



## jnpcook (Jan 19, 2000)

Does anyone know if the wind chill factor has any effect on how fast new ice is made or does this just depend only on the temperature being below freezing. (Below 32 F)?

John


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## Joe'sCat (Jan 11, 2001)

That's a good question.

Thinking it through . . . wind chill does not make the air any colder, it just make it FEEL colder to us, since we as mammals are warmer than the cold air. By moving the air past our warmer bodies, it can take away the radiated heat faster - hence wind chill.

Once an object is at the same temperature as the air adjacent to it, wind chill would have little effect - 30 degree air on a 30 object isn't going to change the temperature, blowing fast or not. It would help take away any heat being release from the object (like the water we want to freeze) faster, so if the water is warmer than the air, wind chill would help freeze it faster, if that was the only factor.

But, if the air is blowing on the water, moving it around, moving water does not freeze as readily. That _might_ pose a delay in freezing the upper surface, but also that may get balanced out by helping to stir up any heat trapped underneath the surface.

My vote - it helps slightly, especially if skim ice has formed, preventing the water from being blown and moved around.

A far bigger factor is just plain cold, and how long it is cold. Also, protection from the warming effects of sunlight.


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## Moron (Dec 31, 2001)

I think I would agree with Joe'scat.
The wind would cool the warmer water faster. But once ice has formed the effect would be less the thicker the ice gets. All in all I don't think it would be a significant factor.

Then again my fishing handle is moron. I'll run that by my fishing buddy Putz and see what he thinks.


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

No. It makes no difference on the ice. Joe's cat is right. It makes it feel colder to us. The wind also makes the space between the hair on skin and skin smaller as well as taking away radiated heat. That is called our insulation zone (between hair/skin)


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

I've heard people discussing this same issue.
I'm no physics expert but the way I feel about it is that the "Wind Chill Factor" has NOTHING to do with ice forming.
The wind chill factor affects us humans and animals because as the wind blows past our skin, it causes the moisture to evaporate more quickly and therefore draws the heat out of our skin making it feel colder than the actual temperature outside.
I don't believe that it has anything to do with the lake freezing any faster. The water will only freeze when the outside temp drops to or below 32 degrees. If you were standing outside in say 38 degree weather and there was a 25 mph wind blowing, you can bet it would feel a lot colder than 38 degrees. But I'm sure that the water in the lake wouldn't be freezing.
I don't know if anybody really knows for sure. In fact, I have an uncle who rolls his eyes everytime somebody mentions the wind chill factor. He doesn't believe it even exists. I for one do.  

Just my .02


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

If I fart and the wind chill is -10 will the fish smell it?


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## STEINFISHSKI (Jan 30, 2001)

Wind chill and apparent temp combined with the coefficient cooling convection in the ice...hell I don't know.

If it feels like 10 below to me, but the thermomiter still says 20 I'd have to say no. Just a guess.

Would be interested in the correct answer.


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## Moron (Dec 31, 2001)

The wind won't make it any colder then the temp is. But it seems it would have some effect on the speed at which something warmer then the air is cooled down to the air temp.


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

I have heard all of the above mentioned. maybe a combo of them? The hair thing was told to me by ecology prof in college. Evaporation makes perfect sense. Loss of heat is quicker due to wind...I will make that my goal at work to find a TEXTBOOK answer since i am surrounded by science books.


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## Moron (Dec 31, 2001)

Stumpjumper

If you fart and it's 10 below, you'll probably be so bundled up in clothing no one will smell it until remove some clothing. 

Back to the other type of wind though.
If you set your hot coffee in the wind it will cool faster then the same temp with no wind won't it?
If not I've been blowing on my hot food for all these years for nothing. What a waste of air!


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## Big Rig (Nov 9, 2001)

Time for my 2 Cents worth !!
While fishing on a lake this past week end, the temps were still in the 38-40 degree range with a stiff breeze, the wind chill factor was at 25 degrees. and guess what our holes were freezing over !! So with that said i have to believe it will make a difference on un frozen water. Now whether or not it will affect a covered lake and help make more ice I can't even hazzard a guess!!!!


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## Magnet (Mar 2, 2001)

Bg Rig,

I think you experienced the super cooling of air. As the air is blown across and right next to the ice, the air is cooled to near the temperature of the ice. Ice, by the way, is below freezing, otherwise it wouldn't be ice. The super cooled air then blows acrossed the open water of your fishing hole and freezes the water. This happens when the air temperature is already close to freezing. (The air temperature at ice level is not the same as the air temperature 10ft above the ice. Similarly, when you fill a glass with ice cubes and then add water, the ice cubes will bond (freeze) together temporarily (super cooling of water). 

Water can also be super cooled. This usually occurs in streams. The water can actually be below freezing temperature without actually freezing. This is why the rocks on the stream bottom are sometimes coated with ice, although water is running over them.

As far as wind chill, It's mostly about evaporation. The evaporation process takes energy. The energy comes in the form of heat. The energy (heat) is used up in the evaporation process and robs the product of its warmth, leaving the product cooler. It doesn't matter whether the product is water, skin, or a wet rubber ball out in your back yard, it works the same way.

That is why air conditioners have what is known as an evaporator core. The evaporation process creates a cooling affect.

Anyways, that's my spin on it.

Magnet


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## hypox (Jan 23, 2000)

wouldn't the wind be turning over the lake? I would think the wind would cool the whole volume of the lake better than no wind at all. making it closer to the freezing point. so, when it was below 32 degrees it would freeze faster. By the way, what temp. does ocean water freeze??


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## Joe'sCat (Jan 11, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Big Rig _
> *Time for my 2 Cents worth !!
> While fishing on a lake this past week end, the temps were still in the 38-40 degree range with a stiff breeze, the wind chill factor was at 25 degrees. and guess what our holes were freezing over !! So with that said i have to believe it will make a difference on un frozen water. Now whether or not it will affect a covered lake and help make more ice I can't even hazzard a guess!!!! *


Of course 38-40 degree air won't freeze water. But, several other factors, mentioned above, still apply. The water in your holes was surrounded by 32 degree or colder ice! The wind was cooled by passing over all that ice, so even if the "weather" is 38-40 degrees, the air passing AT YOUR HOLE is certainly less than that. It's windy , helping the warmer, rising, unfrozen water in your hole lose its heat faster, then the surrounding ice does the rest of the job of freezing it over.

So there.


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## Joe'sCat (Jan 11, 2001)

Sorry Magnet, I posted the above, then read your post, where you had already said pretty much what I said. So, basically I agree with you!

Hypox, I think ocean water would freeze at a lower temperature, due to the salt lowering the freezing point.



I love the "scientific" discussions !


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## BowDad (Jul 19, 2000)

Entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Had to write a paper about it in school one semester. Gives me a headache just thinking about it. If you suffer form insomnia, look it up, its a guaranteed cure. 

The wind will bring the water to the ambient temperature more quickly, but is not capable of producing sub-ambient temps.


Hope this helps.


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

Magnet,
Great post, If I remember correctly the wind chill factor is the delta of the heat transfer based on "human" skin. Naturally the heat loss factor for various density materials will vary. Thus I was under the assumption when wind chill was reporterd just as heat index it was directly related to humans with unproctected skin. Super Cooling is that thermo effect which creates such materials as dry ice. A gas / solid substance. If I remember correctly super heat and super cooled cross the enthalphy tables inverse to there K neutrual states. It has been a while but I think I need to get my Thermo book out again. I agree with the evaporiation / over the hole concept. However if the wind is an energy form than the hole freezing up would not occur. But if the wind was a factor in moving small particles of ice into the hole than wind would keep the thermal layer above the hole thus allowing the hole to freeze over ( at least skim over). This would help the turbalance effect theory to hold water, no pun... Great Post Magnet...


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## Magnet (Mar 2, 2001)

Thanks Dead Bird,
I pondered the info in the previous posts and then kind of shot from the hip. As far as the "super cooled" mumble jumble, I picked that up several years ago watching the Discovery channel about the effects that the change of seasons has on a trout stream.

Magnet


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

still a great post Magnet


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## JStarbrite (Apr 3, 2000)

To moron and Stump:

I've been fishing when it was so cold, you couldn't hear or smell your farts until you took off your shorts and warmed them by the fire!


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## FischInMich (Feb 5, 2001)

C'mon......who has a college buddy who can answer this for good.....all the theories make SOME sense, but none are forgone.


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## Joe'sCat (Jan 11, 2001)

> _Originally posted by JStarbrite _
> *To moron and Stump:
> 
> I've been fishing when it was so cold, you couldn't hear or smell your farts until you took off your shorts and warmed them by the fire! *



That explains why we haven't been getting good ice. Too many guys letting their warm farts out, warming the lake area. So lets help the ice form guys and hold your farts until you get off the ice area please. Thanks, all us ice fisherman will appreciate it.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Oh boy, an EX-Spurt in the Thermo Sciences, right Sarge, Wormdunker????????????? LOL


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

So, how cold is it?

As of late, you are a spokesman of cold weather and ice formation.

Brass monkeys, wind chill ect.
What's next?
Please elaborate on welldigger's asses and witch's teats.


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## BEAGLEMAN (Oct 16, 2000)

I'm getting a headache reading this thread. It must be the wind!


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

I finally came to the realization, that we reached the point, where I need to ask permission to touch the hem of your garment.

Touche`


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## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

Amazing SFK. Simply amazing.


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## kroppe (May 7, 2000)

SFK has it right on the wind chill thing. 

Wind increases the convection coefficient, which affects the rate at which heat is transferred out of the water (at or above 32 degrees, for example) and into the air (at or below 32 degrees, for example). 

Wind, and convection, affects the speed at which the water cools and approaches the temperature of the air. 

To complicate things, during the day the sun is adding energy to the water at the same time, so the net heat transfer to the water will be dependent on the temperature of the air, temperature of the water and amount of radiated heat from the sun. 

At night there is no heat transferred to the water from the sun, so the water temperature will tend to move toward the air temperature. The speed or rate at which the water temperature changes will be dependent on, among other things, wind speed.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

OK, but what about the absorbtion of sunlight by impurities and minute plant matter? Does that retard the cooling and actually increase the water temp during daylight hours, regardless of the wind?

As you can tell, I need to know. I can't live without this information. Please do tell. lol


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Geez, I go away for a few days and look what happens to you guys.........


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Welcome back Paul.
As you can see, we need another C&R, Flies Only thread.
I sure don't want to get wrapped up in that QDM debate.

Idle minds at work.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
The site has been a little slow in recent days.

Perhaps we can start some type of controversial thread.

Clay, guess what the mailman brought? It's in the form of a money order, not the usual corporate check. 
Life is good.


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## Fishfoote (Jan 2, 2001)

The cup of water that is 50 degrees F will freeze faster than the cup of water that is 150 degrees F. The time difference will be exactly equal to the amount of time it takes the cup of water that is 150 degrees F to reach 50 degrees F in a freezer that is 12 degrees F.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Ray, the lake turnover occurs, when the water temperature reaches 36.8 degrees. (The highest density)

Mr SFK, will you please describe the amount of British Thermal Units (BTU) required to bring water from it's solid state to vaporizing?
We need to know.


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## FischInMich (Feb 5, 2001)

Well done, SFK. Hopefully everyone around here knows their algebra.


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## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

And to think I come here to escape the questions that my 4 year olds ask me . . . geez!

SFK,
While you are starting that thread on the Second law of thermodynamics and evolution, will you please expound on Complexity theory and Quantum mechanics while you are at it. Thx!

T


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## FischInMich (Feb 5, 2001)

Anyone have a paper to write this weekend? Now's your chance!


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

No doubt.
Hey Fishman, that Jpeg in your signature is down.


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## mickey (Sep 25, 2000)

its all resonation and frequency of that molecular brownian movement, y'all. (<--- why sky's blue)
(Can be emulated for small children by the use of tuning forks of same/different pitch)


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## Joe'sCat (Jan 11, 2001)

And people think ice fishermen are a dumb lot, not able to tell if ice is safe to go on, inevitably requiring a rescue by the guys in helmets with the red helicopter thingys. Geez.

Now wouldn't that be a hoot to the media, when they go to interview the rescued, only to have him start a whole discertation on thermodynamics, wind chill, and expound on the properties of the trapped fart.  

That'd make their microphone and camera totin' heads spin, now wouldn't it? (in Mr. Stress's voice): NOW ANSWER ME!



We've got to get out more, myself included.


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## DaveW731 (Jan 12, 2001)

This post is REALLY fun!
About Lake turnover:
I believe turnover is BOTH when the warmest water is at the bottom of the lake, AND when the bottom water is 36.8 degrees. This is because when the 36.8 degree water is at the bottom (because of its greater density) all the water above it is colder.
It is only after turnover occurs that freezing can start.


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## TBone (Apr 7, 2001)

Are we talking at sea level now? Exactly at what atmospheric pressure are we talkin'


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure)


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## jnpcook (Jan 19, 2000)

Wow, I didn't realize this thread would be so interesting. Shows me what I forgot in my thermodynamics classes from school Thanks for all the replies. 

Although not found in any textbook, there is an important rule of thumb that has similarities to some of the earlier posts to this thread. Although not related to ice fishing it is still an important rule to remember.

"NEVER FART IN YOUR WADERS" (This leaves the odor only one direction to escape, right in your face).

John


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## FischInMich (Feb 5, 2001)

Thanks Ralf.


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

Gee SFK ,
You make it all seem so simple.
Heck if I hang around an EXPERT like you for a few more days I'll bet I get my GED quickerer


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

Geez I didn't realize this was going to be such an informative thread, I should of saved my fart comment for a post in itself! I was taught that warm water freezes faster than cold water and cold water comes to a boil faster than hot water. SFK how does this really work?


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## Sailor (Jan 2, 2002)

What I Want to know is: Do SKF, Stumpjumper, and Split Shot catch any fish?
I'm a firm believer in patterns and find it strange that all of their nicknames(and come to think of it MINE) start with an "S"
like something that comes from the same place as the aforementioned farts.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Now, that we covered the specific gravity, the effects of BTU's and heat transfer, the boiling point and other non-important facts of water in different states. I want to know, at which point does
Hell freeze over?? I've heard, it's when the Lions win a Super Bowl. I guess, we'll never know.


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## DaveW731 (Jan 12, 2001)

SFK:
Somewhere on the last page I posted an obviously over-simplified message about turnover. Not only did you provide a great explanation for turnover, I also enjoyed the explanation of why hot water freezes when thrown in the air. I think I'll demonstrate this with the kids, if the temp gets a bit colder.
I'm still not catching many fish this winter, but at least this forum is still fun!


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