# Superior Kennels?



## crosswind

How important do you think seeing both parents work is?[/QUOTE]

For the first time dog buyer that basically going into this blind. I think it is an absolute must.And I don't mean look at them, I mean have them taken out into the field and shoot birds over them. See how they handle see how much drive they have. Staunchness, Style, Range, Gait.Those should be on top of the list.
The dog business is loaded with shysters that are looking to make a quick buck at whatever the outcome.It is also loaded with people that are not educated as to what goes into the making of a good sound bird dog. They may not be trying to rip you off but they may not have put much thought into the breeding either.There is a lot more to it then first meets the eye.
Some these people with the big fancy web sites are the worst crooks of all beware. Research each one and get references.


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## springpoint

If i were going to buy a dog with a strong elhew back ground i would look to autumn memory kennels there dogs are expensive but i have heard very good things about them and i beleave they have pups on the ground right now. 

good luck


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## Scott Berg

2ESRGR8 said:


> That's what i'm saying. Bob isn't making the decisions anymore. No one knows what path he may have chosen with todays dogs.
> Just like Ryman setters, George is long gone. Same with old Hemlock.
> Bob's experience and money are not behind the program anymore.
> Sure the "type" still exists but that is all.
> I suppose I am hung up on the opposite end of being stuck on the name. QUOTE]
> 
> Good points Scott. If I remember corectly George Ryman died in 1961. More importantly, probably 10+ generations ago. Three generations can easily completely undue a line.
> 
> When did Llewellin quit breeding?


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## dogwhistle

seeing both parents hunt can be virtually impossible if the sire is a ch. from another state, as is often the case.

and taking the dam out and killing birds over her for each prospective buyer would be a tedious process at best.

???


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## slammer

BIGSP said:


> It's an Elhew outcross. Not the same thing. Nice dogs but, not Elhew.


Again strong Elhew breeding, as strong as you will get with the typical outcrossing that takes place to improve the line...pretty much the same thing.


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## Merimac

I agree with the Scotts. The Elhew name is different and I wish they would change the name and see who is still buying. Pointers I would look at would be Sean Derrig, Joe McCarl, Bruce Minard, Frank Lanasa and dogs out of Black Hawk.

But I am a setter guy so take that with a grain of salt.


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## BIGSP

Merimac said:


> I agree with the Scotts. The Elhew name is different and I wish they would change the name and see who is still buying. Pointers I would look at would be Sean Derrig, Joe McCarl, Bruce Minard, Frank Lanasa and dogs out of Black Hawk.
> 
> But I am a setter guy so take that with a grain of salt.


i think a lot of people would still buy them. They are nice dogs. Maybe not the trial dogs that you guys want but, nice dog none the less. Superior does have a little out of a Blackhawk dog coming next year. Not sure if that's the dog you meant.

Marc at Superior is a wild bird hunter and only breeds dogs that are true wild bird finders. Not too many trialers can say that, other than the cover dog guys. It takes a special dog to become proficient at finding wild birds and that's all he breeds so, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss those dogs.


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## Back woods

BIGSP said:


> I think generally they are a little closer working dog and probably a little easier for the first time handler than one of Bruce's dogs. I think Bruce's dog are probably just little high powered for the first time dog handler.


You make statements about my dogs and don't even know them. 


Bruce


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## BIGSP

_Posted via Mobile Device_
Bruce I didn't say anything bad about your dogs. In fact I think I praised both you and Vance. Your dogs are trial dogs and can
be great foot hunting dogs. The guy at Superior breeds for closer working pointers. 
I've recommended you kennel to a number of people. This guy is asking about Elhew dogs. I gave my opinion about those dogs.


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## Steelheadfred

All I know is that the pointers Bruce breeds are nicer house dogs then my labs and I mean that in all seriousness. Mates dog Chopper is like having an old Golden Retriever around, same with Dan Ross's old dog Snoop, or when you go to a party at Bruce's and they are just sleeping on the couch as 20 some people mingle and move. My dogs would be begging, knocking crap off tables with tail's and generally being a PIA. The off switch those dogs have I am envious of.

I would not hesitate one minute to suggest a Hi Five dog to a new trainer, I think a nice conversation with Bruce as to what you are looking for is in order, but his dogs I have hunted over are far from what I thought of as a typical "trial grouse dog" in terms of run, handling, and what not. Hell I remember one fine day that Rudy was around 70 yards the whole time and it was as relaxing a hunt for Grouse as I can remember.


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## Back woods

The breeding Harry posted about is CH.Zumbro's Ace x Lemon Mcgee. Lemon is a daughter of CH.Elhew Fibber Mcgee x Elhew Ocnee Jill. Fibber has now made it to the top as the top producing Elhew dog. Ace is out of CH. Wynot Ace who is out of Elhew No Trump out of Ehlew Fibber Mcgee x Elhew Miss America.....

There is just as much good Elhew blood and if not more "proven" Elhew blood in that breeding than most Elhew breedings out there today.

My other brood matron is Woodland Morgan. She is out of CH.Peerless Elhew Jake x Elhew Swift Sioux. Jake is out of CH. Elhew Snakefoot x Elhew Something Royal. Jake won the Minnesota Grouse Championship. Elhew Swift Sioux is out of Elhew Crazy Horse x Elhew Kelly. Crazy Horse is out of CH. Elhew Snakefoot x Elhew Gypsy Lee. Elhew Kelly is out of CH. Elhew Strike x Elhew Kiwi. Sioux was the Wisconsin/Minnesota grouse derby if the year.

Morgan will be bred this spring. Sire yet to be determined.

Just because some don't go around bragging about how much Elhew blood they have don't mean they don't have it. 

PS. I have sold 99.9% of all my dogs to hunters and not field trialers.

Just for the record.
Bruce


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## Back woods

BIGSP said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> Bruce I didn't say anything bad about your dogs.


I didn't say you did. All I said is you don't know any of my dogs. 

To paint me into a corner as a "trial guy" is wrong. Sure trialing is a great place for me to prove what I'm doing as a breeder but these dogs prove it to me first in the woods as a hunter. I bet even with all the time I have spent this fall on the road from Minnesota to Pennsylvania hitting trials I have still logged more days hunting my dogs than most here.

Bruce


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## crosswind

dogwhistle said:


> seeing both parents hunt can be virtually impossible if the sire is a ch. from another state, as is often the case.
> 
> 
> and taking the dam out and killing birds over her for each prospective buyer would be a tedious process at best.
> 
> ???


 Only if you are not willing to put the time and effort into your research.
Remember we are talking about a first time buyer here.New to the pointing dog stuff.
What other method is better then actually seeing both parents work birds. 
Of course a person could always come here and ask. In return they usually get mislead, misinformed, misdirected and have to sort through all the BS to obtain a little bit of useful information.
If the man in interested in Elhew stuff it looks like Bruce has a bunch of it in his kennel. I would be willing to bet that he can show you both parents on birds.Plus the man is out there competing his dogs proving what they are made of. 
I have to laugh every time I hear the statement about trial dogs not being able to find wild birds or they are too high powered or they don't make as good of pets, they are harder to train,they run to big, the list goes on and on.....


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## All TIME ANGLER

My ignorant 2 cents: As far as I can tell, I don't want dogs that come from a horseback trialing stock. Even something from the Snakefoot lineage. I just got done with an E-mail with Mark(superior) and he seems to feel the same. Dogs from the McGoo/Seawolf/Stike/kiwi stock seem to be more apt to be a good pairing for someone who has no plan to trial the dog, but instead, hunt them, usually alone. I could be totally wrong, but thats why I'm here getting opinions from hunters I respect.


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## BIGSP

crosswind said:


> Only if you are not willing to put the time and effort into your research.
> Remember we are talking about a first time buyer here.New to the pointing dog stuff.
> What other method is better then actually seeing both parents work birds.
> Of course a person could always come here and ask. In return they usually get mislead, misinformed, misdirected and have to sort through all the BS to obtain a little bit of useful information.
> If the man in interested in Elhew stuff it looks like Bruce has a bunch of it in his kennel. I would be willing to bet that he can show you both parents on birds.Plus the man is out there competing his dogs proving what they are made of.
> I have to laugh every time I hear the statement about trial dogs not being able to find wild birds or they are too high powered or they don't make as good of pets, they are harder to train,they run to big, the list goes on and on.....


Bruce I stand corrected. I guess when I think of you dogs I think of Rudy and Jazz.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

Angler,

I am a flushing dog guy so big running dogs were and can be intimidating to me. I also have some thoughts on what is to big a running to put birds in a game bag. 

I am fortunate to be able to hunt with Bruce and a few of his dogs and puppy buyers dogs most seasons. With out a doubt his dogs are comfortable to hunt behind, even for a guy who freaks out with a dog out of his vision like me. They are not intimidating by any means, they are not sky busters and you don't need a horse to follow them. 

I used to have some of the same fears you did, but hunting behind his champions is a walk in the park, they run, they are fast and super flashy and that is a whole bunch of fun to watch, but they are not horizon busters, when hunting with them he is not singing to them, he is not yelling all the time, he just walks and from time to time gives them a command to come around or recall.

I would suggest you at least pay Bruce a phone call or a visit and see if he would be kind enough to take you to an open area, drop a few birds out and you can really watch how his dogs run, plenty of flash and go, but far from out of control.


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## Merimac

BIGSP said:


> i think a lot of people would still buy them. They are nice dogs. Maybe not the trial dogs that you guys want but, nice dog none the less. Superior does have a little out of a Blackhawk dog coming next year. Not sure if that's the dog you meant.
> 
> Marc at Superior is a wild bird hunter and only breeds dogs that are true wild bird finders. Not too many trialers can say that, other than the cover dog guys. It takes a special dog to become proficient at finding wild birds and that's all he breeds so, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss those dogs.



Yes, They would but they would look at who bred it a little closer. Many assume that if the paper says Elhew its a good dog.


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## lking

"Morgan will be bred this spring. Sire yet to be determined."

Ohhhhh shat. I really like that Morgan dog....Let's see...how am I going to swing this one past the old lady???


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## Back woods

BIGSP said:


> Bruce I stand corrected. I guess when I think of you dogs I think of Rudy and Jazz.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


http://www.hifivekennels.com/ch_hifives_wrangler_pedigree.htm

Some Elhew there as well.


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## 2ESRGR8

42lb. Hifive grouse missile, a Jasmine daughter.
Not for the faint of heart but exciting every time out of the box.
Great run yesterday, called to her one time in an hour and that was when I wanted to turn, she spent most of the run inside 200 yards(Astro) bumped two grouse but she's learning.
19 months old with a bright future.


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## springpoint

bruce what is the best way to get ahold of you about your upcoming litters?

I tried emailing you a while back but it was the middle of trial season and i would bet you were on the road.

let me know

angler elhew strike and mcgoo where actually by most accounts better producers of trial dogs than snakefoot dogs. But i would agree that i would rather have breeding heavy in stike and mcgoo blood.


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## WestCoastHunter

Don't confuse big running with not being under control.

All Time Angler, if you haven't done it, go and ask to hunt behind some Pointers, do so behind dogs from differing breeders if you want. I think you'll find it educational. 

Field bred Pointers are not bred to be plodding dogs, I don't care who you buy them from. They are bred to run.


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## Bear Creek

2ESRGR8 said:


> That's what i'm saying. Bob isn't making the decisions anymore. No one knows what path he may have chosen with todays dogs.
> Just like Ryman setters, George is long gone. Same with old Hemlock.
> Bob's experience and money are not behind the program anymore.
> Sure the "type" still exists but that is all.
> I suppose I am hung up on the opposite end of being stuck on the name.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? That sounds right but seems to me that a lot of Elhew prefix dogs are for sale out there and certainly Brian Hayes isn't whelping all those litters.
> How about Elhew Sinbad? Did he come from Hayes operation?


True his experience is no longer overseeing the the breeding program but as meticulous as he was I'm sure he had a very detailed plan left in place for the continuation of his line of Pointers. It will take several years two know for sure if the "new guy" will continue to produce "classic" Elhew dogs with the features and traits that made them famous.

I think what your seeing of the dogs with the Elhew Prefix is the dogs that were sold in the years leading up to Bob's death. Many kennels bought Stud dogs from Elhew to use as there foundation stock then bred second and third generation Elhew dogs. You can put the Elhew name in any registration just not as a Prefix. And as fare as I know that's still the same, if you didn't buy the dog from Elhew Kennels it can't have the Elhew prefix on its registration.

BC


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## BIGSP

Bear Creek said:


> True his experience is no longer overseeing the the breeding program but as meticulous as he was I'm sure he had a very detailed plan left in place for the continuation of his line of Pointers. It will take several years two know for sure if the "new guy" will continue to produce "classic" Elhew dogs with the features and traits that made them famous.
> 
> I think what your seeing of the dogs with the Elhew Prefix is the dogs that were sold in the years leading up to Bob's death. Many kennels bought Stud dogs from Elhew to use as there foundation stock then bred second and third generation Elhew dogs. You can put the Elhew name in any registration just not as a Prefix. And as fare as I know that's still the same, if you didn't buy the dog from Elhew Kennels it can't have the Elhew prefix on its registration.
> 
> BC


Actually you're mostly right. You can get Elhew prefixed dogs from kennels outside Elhew Kennels. The name has to be approved by whomever is in charge I assume Brian Hayes. I know of a few kennels that sell Elhew Prefixed dogs that aren't Elhew kennels. Look at Yellow Rose, Hampshires, Sooner Express, Nitro Kennels just to name a few. They all sell Elhew prefixed puppies at times.


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## Bear Creek

BIGSP you may be right I haven't spoken to the any of the people you mentioned. I do know that Yellow Rose and Crazy Horse kennels where in the running to buy or continue the Elhew Kennels so maybe that's where this came from. More likely though is that its the pairing of two Elhew prefix dogs that is allowing them to name puppies with the Elhew prefix names...but they may still have to get that approved through Brian Hayes not sure on that one. Never the less this post was about Elhew bred dogs and their "difference" when compared to other Pointers. And to that Point I would say there are clearly differences. Some good others maybe not so good but clearly there are differences.

BC


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## lking

to set the record straight...I would avoid HiFive Kennels at all costs...

They are terrible in the house and around children...











They will not produce birds...









and they don't handle grouse worth a shat...










So if you'd all just move on perhaps supply would outweigh demand and Bruce would give me a leftover to work with free of charge...:lol:


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## BIGSP

Bear Creek said:


> BIGSP you may be right I haven't spoken to the any of the people you mentioned. I do know that Yellow Rose and Crazy Horse kennels where in the running to buy or continue the Elhew Kennels so maybe that's where this came from. More likely though is that its the pairing of two Elhew prefix dogs that is allowing them to name puppies with the Elhew prefix names...but they may still have to get that approved through Brian Hayes not sure on that one. Never the less this post was about Elhew bred dogs and their "difference" when compared to other Pointers. And to that Point I would say there are clearly differences. Some good others maybe not so good but clearly there are differences.
> 
> BC


BC, I think that's probably right. Two Elhew prefix dogs with approval is probably right. The only point I was trying to make was the same as you. There are differences between Elhew bred dogs and other pointers. That's it. Plenty of good dogs in all lines. It just depends on the traits that you want.


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## Merimac

BIGSP said:


> BC, I think that's probably right. Two Elhew prefix dogs with approval is probably right. The only point I was trying to make was the same as you. There are differences between Elhew bred dogs and other pointers. That's it. Plenty of good dogs in all lines. It just depends on the traits that you want.


Like what?


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## Unregistered4

lking said:


>


Typical pointer...doesn't know enough to wipe it's feet before running on the walls...

Great pictures though, love that second one. Nice shoot'n on your boys part, too.

Brian (aka -twosetters)


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## Unregistered4

Merimac said:


> Like what?


I know you asked Brent, Ben. 

But, right off hand. I'd say conformation differences would be a starter for me.

I know it has nothing to do with their bird finding abilities...but if I'm going to look at a dog...I want it to be the dog I want to look at.

Elhew type pointer seem to have the more chiseled head, larger ears (which some people believe help capture scent), larger muzzle and are a leggier dog (normally). 

I know, none of this is cast in stone...but...it makes for fun discussion.

Brian.


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## 2ESRGR8

lking said:


> to set the record straight...I would avoid HiFive Kennels at all costs...
> 
> They are terrible in the house and around children...


I have those same sheets.


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## lking

"I have those same sheets."

The dalmation ones? I'm afraid to ask much more.....


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## Merimac

Unregistered4 said:


> I know you asked Brent, Ben.
> 
> But, right off hand. I'd say conformation differences would be a starter for me.
> 
> I know it has nothing to do with their bird finding abilities...but if I'm going to look at a dog...I want it to be the dog I want to look at.
> 
> Elhew type pointer seem to have the more chiseled head, larger ears (which some people believe help capture scent), larger muzzle and are a leggier dog (normally).
> 
> I know, none of this is cast in stone...but...it makes for fun discussion.
> 
> Brian.



So if I put a line up of photos you could point out the dogs that are primarily Elhew?


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## 2ESRGR8

Merimac said:


> So if I put a line up of photos you could point out the dogs that are primarily Elhew?


 Oh this should be fun.
Go for it, I like tests.


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## Merimac

2ESRGR8 said:


> Oh this should be fun.
> Go for it, I like tests.



You will have to wait a little bit. I have to dig up some images of dogs that folks don't know as well.

If they have 1 grandparent that is Elhew I will not consider that "Elhew bred".


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## Merimac

I will start a new thread for this.


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## Bobby

Merimac said:


> I will start a new thread for this.


Ben, you have nothing else to do with your time?
This challenge reminds me of a line from a Larry the Cable Guy joke, something to the tune of, not wanting to do something,Larry says, " I have to stick my weiner in a meat grinder."
:yikes:


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## Lucky Dog

So how about that Superior Kennel anyways.


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