# Michigan Asian Carp Town Hall Meetings



## Spoonbill (Jan 28, 2009)

It is safe to say that everyone wants to keep Asian carp out of Michigan waters. Unfortunately, the reality is that it is possible that a silver or bighead carp could turn up in our waters any day, and eDNA sampling is already underway on several Michigan rivers to make sure that we catch the front of the invasion.
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There have been several recent public meetings focusing on federal efforts and the US Army Corps of Engineers GLIMRIS study, as most of us know. I'm involved in another upcoming series of meetings that will focus on the state's response. These are being hosted by State Representatives on the Natural Resources, Tourism, and Outdoor Recreation Committee. 

Michigan Sea Grant and MSU Extension will be giving an overview of Asian carp biology and collecting audience feedback on how we should respond if/when carp show up in local waters. These educational programs will also include an overview of the MDNR's carp plan from Dave Clapp: 

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10364_52261_54896---,00.html

The educational programs will be followed by town hall meetings, giving participants the chance to comment to committee members regarding Asian carp and other invasive species.


Meeting locations and dates are as follows:

Linwood  May 13
9 a.m.  11 a.m.
St. Annes Church
315 W. Center St., Linwood, MI 48634

Alpena  May 13
6:30 p.m.  8:30 p.m.
Great Lakes Maritime Heritage Center
500 W. Fletcher St., Alpena, MI 49707

Muskegon  May 20
9 a.m.  11 a.m.
GVSUs Annis Water Resources Institute
740 W. Shoreline Dr., Muskegon, MI 49441

Traverse City  May 20
6:30 p.m.  8:30 p.m.
Traverse City Chamber of Commerce
202 E. Grandview Parkway, Traverse City, MI 49684

 
I hope to see some of you at these meetings and hear your opinion of what should be done in the event than an Asian carp shows up in your home water. It is a dismal scenario to consider, but one that is best to address before we have a crisis situation on our hands.

Dan O'Keefe
Michigan Sea Grant
MSU Extension


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Anything planned for further South?


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## Spoonbill (Jan 28, 2009)

Nothing is planned further south at this time, but the St. Joe area would be a logical place to address the issue of carp control.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

I definitely think there would be a lot of interest in one down here.

Have a good day and perhaps will see you down here someday for a meeting.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

I attended the Muskegon meeting, I believe the Reps. Hughes, Foster, Smiidt, are sincere about wanting to do something. A complaint was made that the corps plan wont be done until 2015, the DNR brought up their plan (80 pages) but failed to mention it is a 5 year plan, that they don't know what they're are going to do, except it will be expensive. I would like very much to walk away from this cluster, the people responsible for our problems have taken hypocrisy to a new level. So Asian Carp do not need 100 miles to spawn. the eggs are supposed drop to the bottom in stiil water. West Michigan will be hit the hardest, as we have the spawning/nursery areas. Not what they said, what the fish say. I got an E mail last week, from the No 1 expert that admits the Asian Carp will eat Spiny fleas, which are native to China, and we have lots. The one thing the stood out at the meeting was what to do "if" they find one. There is no if, 3 barriers now, and the voltage is not high enough, and the point was made, there's 36 ways into lake Michigan. Believe what you like, but you won't like what the Asian Carp do.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

walranger5 said:


> I attended the Muskegon meeting, I believe the Reps. Hughes, Foster, Smiidt, are sincere about wanting to do something. A complaint was made that the corps plan wont be done until 2015, the DNR brought up their plan (80 pages) but failed to mention it is a 5 year plan, that they don't know what they're are going to do, except it will be expensive. I would like very much to walk away from this cluster, the people responsible for our problems have taken hypocrisy to a new level. So Asian Carp do not need 100 miles to spawn. the eggs are supposed drop to the bottom in stiil water. West Michigan will be hit the hardest, as we have the spawning/nursery areas. Not what they said, what the fish say. I got an E mail last week, from the No 1 expert that admits the Asian Carp will eat Spiny fleas, which are native to China, and we have lots. The one thing the stood out at the meeting was what to do "if" they find one. There is no if, 3 barriers now, and the voltage is not high enough, and the point was made, there's 36 ways into lake Michigan. Believe what you like, but you won't like what the Asian Carp do.


Can you please explain in detail your statement about 36 ways into Lake Michigan? I know of a few, but 36 is a lot more than I had previously heard about.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

Boozer said:


> Can you please explain in detail your statement about 36 ways into Lake Michigan? I know of a few, but 36 is a lot more than I had previously heard about.


 My pleasure, prior to the most recent "studies" there was 22 ways into the lakes, now they say 36, if you look at the Asian carp spread map, USGS you should see that one barrier or filling in the Chicago River is like plugging one hole in a bucket full of holes, a Band -Aid if you will. The carp are half way up the backside of Wisconsin, headed for Deluth, they got across 5 regular dams to do that. The old way into lake Michigan across Wisconsin is still there, blocked off somewhat but still there. Same as the Erie Canal. There is no "if" they get into the lakes, the prudent and responsible thing to do is to act as if they can and survive here, which they can. According to the NO 1 expert D.Chapman Asian Carp are the most efficent filter feeders in the world, down to micro size food, since they have overrun every place else they went in the world, it is a mistake to think or hope "maybe" it won't happen here. At freep.com/carp find the Asian carp picture of them snagging in Reelfoot lake, these are bigheads, people don't know the flying carp are the little ones. This battle against invasive species will be won or lost in the spawning nursery areas, this is where we need predators, basic biology 101 and natures law, which can't be changed by you, I, or anyone else. 
All baby fish have predators, including Asian Carp, not to use them, means the carp win and we all lose.


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

walranger5 said:


> According to the NO 1 expert D.Chapman Asian Carp are the most efficent filter feeders in the world, down to micro size food, *since they have overrun every place else they went in the world*, it is a mistake to think or hope "maybe" it won't happen here.


Have they taken over Lake Erie? They were first found there in 1995....and several times since then.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

wartfroggy said:


> Have they taken over Lake Erie? They were first found there in 1995....and several times since then.


 Nope they haven't taken over Erie yet. But they have a high Perch and Walleye population, higher than most, still commercial fishing. West Michigan will be hit the hardest, best spawning/nusery areas. Most areas where Asian Carp go they see nothing or a few, sometimes years, then bang, they pull off a spawn, and there you go. About 4 years ago, a DNR guy said there was enough food in Lake Michigan to fill all the great lakes back up with alewives, dumb plan, but if that's true, then there is enough food to fill the lakes with Asian carp. One good spawning area is all they need, we have several. Lake Michigan is very invasive friendly, 900 trillion Quagga mussels seem to have the dominate vote. Dogfish would probably eat baby Asian carp, they like backwaters, they might target bigger ones tho, as will adult Walleye, Pike and Muskie. Perch would attack the eggs, larvae, and YOY up to about 6 or 7 inches. One study states, "A broad range of picivores guarantees a feeding pressure directed to as many as possible length classes of unwanted fish" So your Dogfish could be a big help, glad to see you coming around. One key point is whatever predator would have to be able to survive in the backwater/nursery areas. Perch can generate high numbers, never seen a school of Dogfish, but they could eat some. Predator/prey is how nature works, using the correct one is key, I'll stick with natures law, always works.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

walranger5 said:


> Nope they haven't taken over Erie yet. But they have a high Perch and Walleye population, higher than most, still commercial fishing. West Michigan will be hit the hardest, best spawning/nusery areas. Most areas where Asian Carp go they see nothing or a few, sometimes years, then bang, they pull off a spawn, and there you go. About 4 years ago, a DNR guy said there was enough food in Lake Michigan to fill all the great lakes back up with alewives, dumb plan, but if that's true, then there is enough food to fill the lakes with Asian carp. One good spawning area is all they need, we have several. Lake Michigan is very invasive friendly, 900 trillion Quagga mussels seem to have the dominate vote. Dogfish would probably eat baby Asian carp, they like backwaters, they might target bigger ones tho, as will adult Walleye, Pike and Muskie. Perch would attack the eggs, larvae, and YOY up to about 6 or 7 inches. One study states, "A broad range of picivores guarantees a feeding pressure directed to as many as possible length classes of unwanted fish" So your Dogfish could be a big help, glad to see you coming around. One key point is whatever predator would have to be able to survive in the backwater/nursery areas. Perch can generate high numbers, never seen a school of Dogfish, but they could eat some. Predator/prey is how nature works, using the correct one is key, I'll stick with natures law, always works.


You keep forgetting that the Perch population in Lake Michigan is the highest it has been in a LONG time, nature by definition will only allow so much, meaning that species like Perch are quite capable of adapting their numbers in a very short amount of time to the amount of food available. Long story short, IF the Asian Carp do as you say, there will be plenty of Perch around to eat them, not to mention Walleye, Pike, Bass, Panfish, etc...


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

walranger5 said:


> Perch would attack the eggs, larvae, and YOY up to about 6 or 7 inches.


 Perch are going to eat 6-7" carp!???!?!?!?!? 
Just how Effing big do you expect these perch to grow????????


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

wartfroggy said:


> Perch are going to eat 6-7" carp!???!?!?!?!?
> Just how Effing big do you expect these perch to grow????????


In his defense, I have been fishing magnum(4-6inch) alewives off the pier for kings and had 14-15 inch perch choking on them. One day at Grand Haven in August you would flip an alewife out and within 5 minutes you would either have a salmon or a huge yellowbelly. Even on the biggest wives.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

Boozer said:


> You keep forgetting that the Perch population in Lake Michigan is the highest it has been in a LONG time, nature by definition will only allow so much, meaning that species like Perch are quite capable of adapting their numbers in a very short amount of time to the amount of food available. Long story short, IF the Asian Carp do as you say, there will be plenty of Perch around to eat them, not to mention Walleye, Pike, Bass, Panfish, etc...


 Perch at the highest? The 2005 spawn "they say" biggest ever recorded. big drop in Mussels and gobies, but 2008 when the hit 8 inches, everybody and his mammy got out fishing them, 50 a day or more, not as many now. Mussels and gobies going back up. What's wrong with cutting the limit in half? Say 25 or even 20? What's wrong with helping the Perch get a good spawn every year? instead of every 20 years or so, Invasives do, why not natives? The Walleyes in Muskegon river haven't had a good spawn in over 50 years, how bout we try something different, say not planting them in June at one inch, right into millions of alewives, known predator? Research "pelagic Planktivores" then tell me why we need to make them the dominate species? Seems to be basic stuff to increase and maintain predator balance. Why can't we have a slot limit on Walleyes? One fish over 23 inches, easy to understand, protects the prime spawners, works everywhere else, why can't we do that here? Not having one isn't working. Costs nothing to do, why not? It's clear we don't have a healthy Perch or native fish population, we have way to many invasive species. The asian carp can grow too big, thus we have to attack the spawn survival, best done with predators, like nature intended. Sorry, the results aren't there, invasives increasing and spreading, anyone can see this fact.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

wartfroggy said:


> Perch are going to eat 6-7" carp!???!?!?!?!?
> Just how Effing big do you expect these perch to grow????????


 Yep What he said, plus I have caught big Perch on 7 inch crankbaits, catch Perch with pike minnows on tip ups, this is not news. One study statement bio manipulation, "These effects are positive as Perch is needed to suppress the age-0 cyprinids" IE Carp. I'm just agreeing with a whole bunch of biologists, and it can be done here real easy. If we don't have to worry about the alewives. We can do the right thing for the lakes, or not. Currently we are not. The proofs in the lake.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

quest32a said:


> In his defense, I have been fishing magnum(4-6inch) alewives off the pier for kings and had 14-15 inch perch choking on them. One day at Grand Haven in August you would flip an alewife out and within 5 minutes you would either have a salmon or a huge yellowbelly. Even on the biggest wives.


 Thanks, and you just showed why they won't let us help increase the Perch. One groups been trying for 25 years, they blame commercial fisherman but that ain't it. Thanks again.


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

walranger5 said:


> So your Dogfish could be a big help, glad to see you coming around.


 I am about as serious about the dogfish as I was the Whales......
Besides, Dog fish would be counter-productive to your perch fetish.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

walranger5 said:


> Perch at the highest? The 2005 spawn "they say" biggest ever recorded. big drop in Mussels and gobies, but 2008 when the hit 8 inches, everybody and his mammy got out fishing them, 50 a day or more, not as many now. Mussels and gobies going back up. What's wrong with cutting the limit in half? Say 25 or even 20? What's wrong with helping the Perch get a good spawn every year? instead of every 20 years or so, Invasives do, why not natives? The Walleyes in Muskegon river haven't had a good spawn in over 50 years, how bout we try something different, say not planting them in June at one inch, right into millions of alewives, known predator? Research "pelagic Planktivores" then tell me why we need to make them the dominate species? Seems to be basic stuff to increase and maintain predator balance. Why can't we have a slot limit on Walleyes? One fish over 23 inches, easy to understand, protects the prime spawners, works everywhere else, why can't we do that here? Not having one isn't working. Costs nothing to do, why not? It's clear we don't have a healthy Perch or native fish population, we have way to many invasive species. The asian carp can grow too big, thus we have to attack the spawn survival, best done with predators, like nature intended. Sorry, the results aren't there, invasives increasing and spreading, anyone can see this fact.


50 a day? Indiana and Illinois are 15 fish per day and they close the season during June so they can spawn.

Michigan is 35 per day and Wisconsin is 5 per day.

Like I said man, you don't even post facts, you post propaganda in order to scare people into believing your delusions...


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

Kory,

FWIW, the closed season in IL was a concession the DNR made to commercial fishers when commercial perch fishing was ended. It was the proverbial "pound of flesh" extracted to get the commercial fishermen (3 of them in total) to agree to the end of commercial fishing. July was chosen per public vote out of 3 or 4 choices given by the DNR. I'm not sure just shooting from the hip here, but I think the perch spawn here earlier than June.


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## Carpmaster (Apr 1, 2004)

quest32a said:


> In his defense, I have been fishing magnum(4-6inch) alewives off the pier for kings and had 14-15 inch perch choking on them. One day at Grand Haven in August you would flip an alewife out and within 5 minutes you would either have a salmon or a huge yellowbelly. Even on the biggest wives.


I have also experienced this...still I do not think they are the holy grail!


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

Carpmaster said:


> I have also experienced this...still I do not think they are the holy grail!


 Yeah, they will sometimes, but a 6" ale pinned to the bottom with a 2oz sinker and hook in the back is different than chasing down a free 7" carp in the open. Yeah, you can argue that you can catch a 6" perch on a 7" rapala.....but just because the perch tried to hit it does not mean it would ever be successful in catching and swallowing it.


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

Boozer said:


> 50 a day? Indiana and Illinois are 15 fish per day and they close the season during June so they can spawn.
> 
> Michigan is 35 per day and Wisconsin is 5 per day.
> 
> Like I said man, you don't even post facts, you post propaganda in order to scare people into believing your delusions...


 Believe what you want. How'd the alewives pull off a "bumper crop" spawn last here if we had a high Perch population?


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

walranger5 said:


> Believe what you want. How'd the alewives pull off a "bumper crop" spawn last here if we had a high Perch population?


Maybe Perch aren't the super predators you think...


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

wartfroggy said:


> Yeah, they will sometimes, but a 6" ale pinned to the bottom with a 2oz sinker and hook in the back is different than chasing down a free 7" carp in the open. Yeah, you can argue that you can catch a 6" perch on a 7" rapala.....but just because the perch tried to hit it does not mean it would ever be successful in catching and swallowing it.


 Well, frog boy, I don't believe anything will make you happy. We have a choice, we can use real fish biology, or we can use Alewife biology. Real biology works, it's based on predator/prey interaction. Alewife biology, is protecting the alewives, it seems at all costs. The "experts" say juvenile asian carp are very bad at avoiding predators, adults very hard to catch. Alewife biology destroys the natural ecosystem, because it has to if alewives are to survive, real biology does not! Now a lake in Kentucky got poisoned by accident, they found 90% asian carp they didn't know were there, just thought it was fished out. So not seeing them in Erie or elsewhere, don't mean they ain't there. They don't bite a hook, and bigheads don't jump. Over 50 positive edna hits past the barrier, not made by one fish. I gotta go with real biology, you believe what you want. Perch are good predators and they belong here, alewives do not!


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

walranger5 said:


> *Well, frog boy,* I don't believe anything will make you happy.


Sorry, Ballranger. I just stated that a large meal that is tied to the bottom MIGHT be easier to eat than a large one that is swimming around free. Is this not accurate?


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

Imagine this in the Great Lakes:

http://www.nokomiseast.org/yard/light/creeksharks.html


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

REG said:


> Imagine this in the Great Lakes:
> 
> http://www.nokomiseast.org/yard/light/creeksharks.html


 Now that would be some carp control! But, probably wouldn't do much good for the beaches, swimming or tourism.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

That is insane!


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

In the late 70's, there was a big stink in the news about a shark being caught off of th beach in Ludington. It actually ended up pretty humorous.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&pg=4325,7883097&dq=ludington+shark&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&pg=3139,7605380&dq=ludington+shark&hl=en


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## walranger5 (May 1, 2005)

I'm surprised there's no comments on the recent expert statements that Asian carp can survive and will "whack" and dominate the near shore areas, and eat anything that fits in thier mouth. Eric Sharp Free Press has a great comment and the link to the study. I do support separation, but that's only one hole, the main hole, but only one. If the Asian carp pull off a good spawn here, will we kill Lake Michigan? Fill in the Soo or the Macinaw? Much easier to fill the lake with predators, much easier.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Can you provide a link to this study/article?


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

walranger5 said:


> I'm surprised there's no comments on the recent expert statements that Asian carp can survive and will "whack" and dominate the near shore areas, and eat anything that fits in thier mouth. Eric Sharp Free Press has a great comment and the link to the study. I do support separation, but that's only one hole, the main hole, but only one. If the Asian carp pull off a good spawn here, will we kill Lake Michigan? Fill in the Soo or the Macinaw? Much easier to fill the lake with predators, much easier.


 So Eric Sharp is now a Carp expert too? I thought he was pretty well preoccupied with baiting lately.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Latest from GLMRIS today...










Other Potential Aquatic Pathways between the Great Lakes and Mississippi River Basins. Focus Area II addresses other aquatic pathways between the basins outside of the CAWS. USACE has conducted screening-level assessments to characterize these other pathways in terms of types of ANS which may transfer through them, as well as the risk of that transfer occurring.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

Kory,

Thanks for the chart. Hopefully, more anglers will realize that simply closing the locks in Chicago will make the problem go away. In fact, it would do little to keep these carp out of the Great Lakes.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

http://www.lrc.usace.army.mil/pao/Other_Pathways_Preliminary_Risk_Characterization.pdf

All the details, enjoy!


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