# Best grouse dog?



## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Firemedic said:


> Captain Obvious, that goes without saying!!!!


KFC has gone boneless! BOOM!


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

2ESRGR8 said:


> KFC has gone boneless! BOOM!


 
How long would that 10pc meal last, ya recon?


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

I do like bisquets with honey on them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Any ways was this not settled two summers ago with the pointing dog vs pointing lab trial?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uppower (Aug 16, 2010)

N M Mechanical,
That could settle it if you assume that pointers are preferable. There are a lot of Spaniel owners on here that might beg to differ! Now I am just trying to pick your guys brains...you all have a lot more experience then I have!


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

uppower said:


> N M Mechanical,
> That could settle it if you assume that pointers are preferable. There are a lot of Spaniel owners on here that might beg to differ! Now I am just trying to pick your guys brains...you all have a lot more experience then I have!



Yeah Nick.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> Hal,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

uppower said:


> you all have a lot more experience then I have!


:lol: Never assume.......


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Fair enough Hal.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> I do like bisquets with honey on them
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mmmmmmmm Honeyyyyyyyyyyy.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any ways was this not settled two summers ago with the pointing dog vs pointing lab trial?


I read this wrong. I didn't hear anything about pointing lab verses pointing dog. I hope to settle trial dog verses duck dog this fall.

When I was running Hunter awhile back when he broke on woodcock I just swore at him the word whoa never even crossed my mind I never use it. I got a call from Rich Hollester last night he is campaining Hunter this spring the only problem he is having is try to pick him up after brace ends. He just yeals whoa Hunter stops so Rich can collar him.


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## uppower (Aug 16, 2010)

So are you guys saying that pointers are cut and dry better than dogs breed to upland flush? Spaniels exc...


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## MuskyDan (Dec 27, 2001)

Hunted with good labs the majority of my youth, hunted grouse and pheasants as far West as Nebraska. Got a shorthair Bitch and trained her to fetch, the greatest gun dog ever. The prance of a shorthair is stunning reminds of those bad ass horses. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

English Setters are the grouse dog to messure all other breeds against.

If you want to kill birds, the real killers I know, they all run English Setters except two of them. Guys killing 75 plus birds a season. They all run athletic setters, some grouse mutts, some field trial bred. 



> So are you guys saying that pointers are cut and dry better than dogs breed to upland flush? Spaniels exc...


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## CDN_Cocker (Apr 10, 2013)

Lot of politically correct answers here... "the one you own". Everyone knows however that what you need is a field bred english cocker


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

cdn_cocker said:


> lot of politically correct answers here... "the one you own". Everyone knows however that what you need is a field bred english *setter*


fyp


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

uppower said:


> So are you guys saying that pointers are cut and dry better than dogs breed to upland flush? Spaniels exc...


You can fill a tail gate with a wide range of types, breeds and lines. I actually think the dog is secondary to the hunter as long as the hunter knows what he's doing, has a good work ethic and can shoot (heck, if you have it together as a hunter and you're willing to work, you don't even need a dog).

With that said, I think it basically boils-down to what you like in a dog. Some prefer a slower, less driven, closer working animal who is in sight much of the time, and who consequently doesn't really require advanced bird manners, but may very well have tons of birds killed over them.
Others prefer a more driven, athletic, wider ranging animal who has advanced bird handling manners and whose owners may also kill tons of birds.

The end result might be identical (depending on a variety of obvious factors) but the primary commonality is that the owners of each type of dog will always swear that their type/breed/line is hands-down the best


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## uppower (Aug 16, 2010)

I only ask because I am planning on getting a dog soon. Water fowler and upland. Though we have other labs so doesn't need to both. I was sold on a Boykin but find the English Setter and Brittney interesting.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> You can fill a tail gate with a wide range of types, breeds and lines. I actually think the dog is secondary to the hunter as long as the hunter knows what he's doing, has a good work ethic and can shoot (heck, if you have it together as a hunter and you're willing to work, you don't even need a dog).
> 
> With that said, I think it basically boils-down to what you like in a dog. Some prefer a slower, less driven, closer working animal who is in sight much of the time, and who consequently doesn't really require advanced bird manners, but may very well have tons of birds killed over them.
> 
> ...


I don't know anyone that kills piles of birds who has a dog you describe Mike 
Above. I honestly don't, take the range issue away, they all have impeccable bird manners at least till the Hunter arrives.

I've seen lots of highly driven close working dogs, they might even be slow by your standards, but methodical and driven for sure. 
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## BirdyGSP (Aug 21, 2010)

I really like my GSP. He's so smart he can tell me what species and sex he is pointing. When he points with his left front paw up it's a Woodcock, right and it's a Grouse, back left and it's a Pheasant. For the sex, nose and tail to his right it's a male, and nose/tail left is female. If he lifts right leg and pees it's a skunk.. if he pees on someone it's a liberal.:lol:


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

kek25 said:


> Can you guys define what constitutes a grouse contact for me.
> 
> Not trying to be a smart a##. Just interested in how contacts are registered. Are missed contacts counted by flushes heard without a point and/or walked up birds flushed without a point? Obviously a missed point on a grouse that runs can't be counted.


All of those birds are counted as contacts. 
If you hear or see it the dog should have pointed it.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> It takes XXX contacts to make a good grouse dog so you are right Mike that a killer will make a average dog a good to great grouse due to the shear number of birds it will see in the first three seasons in the dogs life than a guy thatonly gets out a few times a year. But with that said the killers are not buying just average dogs
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Duece22 said:


> And they do not accept poor dog work.


Agreed on all points. It's when you begin take things to the next level (like being in the top .001% of killers and/or you begin to expect a lot from your dog, or you have designs on winning field trials) the bar gets higher and you've got to do your research (or be very lucky) to find a dog who will get you there.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> Agreed on all points. It's when you begin take things to the next level (like being in the top .001% of killers and/or you begin to expect a lot from your dog, or you have designs on winning field trials) the bar gets higher and you've got to do your research (or be very lucky) to find a dog who will get you there.


I don't ask more from my dog then the guys I know that kill 20 grouse a year I just go after it harder when the weather is not perfect. Most of you have seen my dogs at RGS trials and at NSTRA. And the trials I have been at most have much better dogs then mine but I will be have grouse for dinner tonight and the months to come
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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

N M Mechanical said:


> And the trials I have been at most have much better dogs then mine but I will be have grouse for dinner tonight and the months to come
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've seen some multi-time Ch dogs who were horrible at handling grouse, and I have seen excellent grouse dogs flat out suck in trials. 

Some dogs just don't get it, either way.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I've seen some multi-time Ch dogs who were horrible at handling grouse


What trial menue were these multi-time Ch from? And what breeds were they? I'm beating they weren't setters from multi-champion cover dog champion breeders.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Thanks for the info on the point/contact stats, guys.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Just looked at the results from Ruff Grouse Field Trial Club. 28 open shooting dogs pointed 28 birds. The 31 derbies pointed 23 birds. Now if I was looking for the best grouse dog I check in to some pups from these dogs. That's one bird every 30 minutes(in O.S.D.)how many of you had that kind of numbers last fall? And remember these dogs were followed by two horse and a gallery of people that also making noise. The winners were setters but a pointer placed and they were some britts run also.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> Just looked at the results from Ruff Grouse Field Trial Club. 28 open shooting dogs pointed 28 birds. The 31 derbies pointed 23 birds. Now if I was looking for the best grouse dog I check in to some pups from these dogs. That's one bird every 30 minutes(in O.S.D.)how many of you had that kind of numbers last fall? And remember these dogs were followed by two horse and a gallery of people that also making noise. The winners were setters but a pointer placed and they were some britts run also.


Even if you double the number (due to low spring bird numbers) that gives you four birds an hour. I would bet there are many on this board that average around and some much higher over last season. Some with setters and pointers but a bunch with various other breeds. 


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

I averaged close to that last year and we were killing them so they weren't there next time to re point. I don't want to start the argument again, but I for one don't believe that the only place to find a pup to kill grouse is the cover dog circuit. mac


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> I averaged close to that last year and we were killing them so they weren't there next time to re point. I don't want to start the argument again, but I for one don't believe that the only place to find a pup to kill grouse is the cover dog circuit. mac


Bragging is reserved for the Cover Dog Retriever thread.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Mike McDonald said:


> I averaged close to that last year and we were killing them so they weren't there next time to re point. I don't want to start the argument again, but I for one don't believe that the only place to find a pup to kill grouse is the cover dog circuit. mac


My I get a AMEN!!!!!!

And you would not believe the #'s over 75 days of hunting so I will not post them those who have had the chance to hunt with me know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> My I get a AMEN!!!!!!
> 
> And you would not believe the #'s over 75 days of hunting so I will not post them those who have had the chance to hunt with me know
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You must have one of those big ringing dogs rather than a slower less drive dog, either way, I'm going with liar.

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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> My I get a AMEN!!!!!!
> 
> And you would not believe the #'s over 75 days of hunting so I will not post them those who have had the chance to hunt with me know
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lies


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## Basil Hayden's (Apr 12, 2013)

Setters


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Basil Hayden's said:


> Setters


Lies


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> Nick, for a high kill rate like that, generally no. You hunt a lot so you know the variables, but I think to get those kinds of numbers you're going to want a combination of a good, hard working hunter, a multitude of good covers, lots of time on the ground and at least a fairly competent and experienced dog.
> 
> The variables that immediately come to mind in killing that many birds that at least partially excludes the dog are of course shooting ability, puting the dog down in a quantity of quality covers and that also fits your style of dog and navigating those covers efficiently and intelligently. If you can do those things, you can do very well for yourself without having a superstar running in front of you.
> 
> Bear in mind that I own every one of the styles of dogs we've mentioned in the last 7-8 posts


Mike,

You are right on here, IMO. The first year I bagged 100+ grouse, I was a freshman in college and my 2 dogs were pretty average on grouse. The older one was great on pheasants but average on grouse. That was a long time ago but I would guess about 40% of the birds were bagged were pointed. We covered the kind of ground you can only cover as a young man. Also, when I turned 16, one the advice of an experienced grouse hunter, I purchased county plat maps and scouted covers for about 6 weeks before the season while working dogs. Of course, I already had quite a few covers from hunting with my older brother.

SRB


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## oilcan (Feb 10, 2007)

Worm Dunker said:


> Just looked at the results from Ruff Grouse Field Trial Club. 28 open shooting dogs pointed 28 birds. The 31 derbies pointed 23 birds. Now if I was looking for the best grouse dog I check in to some pups from these dogs. That's one bird every 30 minutes(in O.S.D.)how many of you had that kind of numbers last fall? And remember these dogs were followed by two horse and a gallery of people that also making noise. The winners were setters but a pointer placed and they were some britts run also.


 From what I heard plenty of those birds were wc, plus that is in a area that never gets hunted.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Scott Berg said:


> Mike,
> 
> You are right on here, IMO. The first year I bagged 100+ grouse, I was a freshman in college and my 2 dogs were pretty average on grouse. The older one was great on pheasants but average on grouse. That was a long time ago but I would guess about 40% of the birds were bagged were pointed. We covered the kind of ground you can only cover as a young man. Also, when I turned 16, one the advice of an experienced grouse hunter, I purchased county plat maps and scouted covers for about 6 weeks before the season while working dogs. Of course, I already had quite a few covers from hunting with my older brother.
> 
> SRB


 
Ben's older???:smile-mad


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Oilcan the bird numbers I got from the post didn't break down number of grouse or woodcock. Gladwin gets hunted hard every weekend in spring and fall. The birds just don't get killed. They get educated by some of the best grouse dogs in the country! Just in the last 4 weekends they have been chased by 100 shooting dogs and that doesn't include the derbies. So I'll still stand by my statement if you want a good grouse dog start from dogs breed to hunt grouse.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> . So I'll still stand by my statement if you want a good grouse dog start from dogs breed to hunt grouse.



Hunt or Trial Terry?


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I've seen some great grouse dogs whose parents had never seen a grouse. I think buy a well bred dog that has the temperament, drive and train ability you want and expose it to grouse and you'll have a grouse dog. Preferably from English Pointer stock. Lol


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> Preferably from English Pointer stock. Lol


Scrawny quail dogs in the woods.............Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Thats the thing about setters hunt or trial comes from the same breeding you choose what you want to due with them. You can bring in a dog with a big run/hunt disire you can't teach it.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Mike McDonald said:


> I averaged close to that last year and we were killing them so they weren't there next time to re point. I don't want to start the argument again, but I for one don't believe that the only place to find a pup to kill grouse is the cover dog circuit. mac


Mac,

The cover dog argument seems logical enough but it does not stand up to impartial scrutiny. The only breed where this theory even comes into play is with Setters and even that is a specific subset of Setters. Pointers and Setters make up 99% of the entries in cover dog trials. However, Cover dog trials have a miniscule impact on Pointer breeding. Are they substandard in the woods? Are the other forms of Setters sub standard in terms of producing grouse for the gun? Even if you think they are, is this specifically because their selection is not a product of grouse trial competition. If they are weaker it is more likely IMO because in general they are not bred with the same degree of selectivity, discipline, and focus on performance traits. For example, utilizing show blood or dogs with several bench dogs in the background. 

This position also ignores that there is a significant amount of horseback blood in cover dogs and some of the most notable cover dog breeders frequently used horseback dogs. I can also speak from the experience of having owned 100+ dogs from cover dog breeding and using many cover dog studs that this theory is nothing more one of the many biases we dog folk partake in to establish in our own minds why our specific blend is the best. We have seen no difference in bird handling ability between cover dogs and horseback dogs. In terms of handling and stamina, I would actually give the HB dogs the edge.

Dogs winning in a specific venue is an understandable source of pride but the logic that tends to go with it is analogous to rooting for your home team. You guys in Michigan probably like the Lions better than the Packers regardless of which team is better.

SRB


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Scott Berg said:


> You guys in Michigan probably like the Lions better than the Packers regardless of which team is better.
> 
> SRB


Wrong again...................oh great Swami of Setterdom............
I've lived within a few miles of the Lions home stadium my entire life. I've always been a Packers fan, since Bart Starr and Vince Lombardi to this very day. Brett Farve was my favorite, I loved the way he played football and his attitude on the field. Aaron Rodgers makes it an easy transition from Brett.


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## Basil Hayden's (Apr 12, 2013)

Just a curious follow up. Straightforward answers, PLEASE.

Scott Berg said: 

"This position also ignores that there is a significant amount of horseback blood in cover dogs.....

Below is the list of current standing in the Michael Seminatore coverdog standings. 

1.Please identify the horseback sires and dams or grandsires and granddams 
of each.
2. Please identify /quantify the "significant percentage amount" of horseback blood 

Straight Forward
Bloom's Ole Dollar
Chip's Uncle Buzzie
Cooper Mountain Pepsi
Moss Meadow Traveler
True Patriot
River's Edge Sadie
Quail Trap Max
Quail Trap Sadie
Rocky Point Lily
Shady Hills Beanie
Fireside Drama Queen
I'm Blue Gert
Magic Mist Bandit


You said:

"....and some of the most notable cover dog breeders frequently used horseback dogs".

Please identify the horseback dog and how frequently they were used for notable cover dog breeders:

Notable coverdog breeder: 
1. Lloyd Murray
2. Other..
3. Other..

Scott Berg said:

"We have seen no difference in bird handling ability between cover dogs and horseback dogs". 

Beside you and your brother; who is the "WE" you are referencing?


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

CH. Fireside Drama Queen

Pedigree: http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1931

All horseback. I won't speak of any of the others.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

Drama Queen is now pregnant by CH. Ridge Creek Cody.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Bobby said:


> Wrong again...................oh great *Swami* of Setterdom............
> I've lived within a few miles of the Lions home stadium my entire life. I've always been a Packers fan, since Bart Starr and Vince Lombardi to this very day. Brett Farve was my favorite, I loved the way he played football and his attitude on the field. Aaron Rodgers makes it an easy transition from Brett.


Just for the record, let's not confuse the great HOF pointer (of which there are many) _Elhew Swami_ with the great _Swami of Setterdom_. 
Carry on.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Basil Hayden's said:


> *1.Please identify the horseback sires and dams or grandsires and granddams *
> of each.
> 2. Please identify /quantify the "significant percentage amount" of horseback blood
> 
> ...


M. Hayden
here is a place to start your own homework assignment:
http://www.williewalker.net/dogarchive3/details.php?id=115337


I will go out on a limb and state, unequivocally, that a winning dog in field trials can handle birds, the birds encountered in the venue of competition. I think there may be some reading between the lines and extrapolating into the questioners game bird of choice.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Back woods said:


> Drama Queen is now pregnant by CH. Ridge Creek Cody.


That litter even sounds good to me!


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Bobby said:


> Wrong again...................oh great Swami of Setterdom............
> I've lived within a few miles of the Lions home stadium my entire life. I've always been a Packers fan, since Bart Starr and Vince Lombardi to this very day. Brett Farve was my favorite, I loved the way he played football and his attitude on the field. Aaron Rodgers makes it an easy transition from Brett.


Sorry Bobby! Please not I said "probably" and I was speaking in general terms. I would bet you would get a fair amount of grief wearing a Packer Jersey in certain pubs in the Detroit area.

SRB


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Basil Hayden's said:


> Just a curious follow up. Straightforward answers, PLEASE.
> 
> You said:
> 
> ...


There is plenty of HB blood in some of the dogs listed but lets talk about the population as a whole, not a snapshot of 14 dogs. Pete Flannigan followed in his fathers footsteps breeding to numerous HB dogs. Pete produced Dave Terhaars dog, TerHaars Rogue who is the youngest winner of a cover dog Championship. I spent a couple weeks with Dave and her on the prairie and she is a special dog. She is by The Insider who was the Purina Top Shooting dog on the HB circuit. He is a mixture of Smith and Sunrise Blood. GNGC TerHaars Elvis is also more HB than cover dog a couple generations back. I also saw Rocko on several occasions and he is as least as much HB as cover dog. 

Mary Beth and Brian also use plenty of HB dogs. Drama Queen is out of Ch Hytest Spymaster who is a littermate to CH Hytest Skyhawk who was the top AA dog in the country. I know because I saw all five brothers while working dogs in ND with Jack Elliot. Jack offered Spymaster to me but I was holding out for one of the other brothers, Silverado who I bred to twice. BTW, I also had my pick of The Insider and the dog I ended up calling Bergs Premium Blend when they were derbies. Back to Drama Queen, her bottom side is also all HB blood. Obviously, her career includes a R/U at the Lakes State and she has been a great producer. Fireside Fleetwoods entire bottom side is Sunrise. The top side dogs were mostly grouse hunting dogs as opposed to trial dogs.

Jerry Kolter bred to First Rate as did Lloyd and I also bred to him twice. Jerry just bred to Ridge Creek Cody who we also bred to 3X. Jerry also bred to Houstons Blackjack who we bred to twice. And, he bred to Peacedale Duke, whatever you want to call him. We have also bred to 4X to Outcast Houstons Vision who is a younger brother to Jerry / Pauls grouse Ch Houstons Belle.

If these three breeders consider the entire population, IMO that is a pretty good indication by itself that it is a good practice. I could also name a few trialing pros with extensive experience in the woods and other formats who have expressed to me in no uncertain terms that they are of the same opinion but I am not going to name them specifically. 

You have also ignored the entire subject of Pointer breeders. Top breeders like Bruce Minard have continued to breed to HB blood but that is still a Micro view. The Macro view is that Pointing breeding is completely and utterly dominated by HB breeding. Grouse trials have had little influence on the breed, yet, it certainly has not detracted from their ability to win grouse trials or handle grouse which is the primary trait we would be attributing to grouse trialing. Obviously, pointers are the most proven all other traits in other forms of trials. Viewed as a case study, Pointers disprove the assertion some like to make that regarding the superiority of cover trials to produce the traits necessary for grouse dogs. That assertion assumes that people like Harold Ray and a very long list of other breeders are not capable of producing an equivalent product with grouse trials as a selection mechanism. There are plenty of people who dont need any form of trial to know when they are looking a superior bird dog.

We dont have a bias which we have proven repeatedly over 30+ years of breeding a couple hundred litters from the best dogs regardless of venue. We also have the benefit of observations from hundreds of clients that have provided feedback would qualify as pretty good data. Not perfect mind you but pretty good considering we are talking about feedback from 1000+ owners and numerous other people over the years. I am simply reporting our observations and the opinions we have formed from that experience. I am very confident the conclusions are unbiased but I am equally sure there are plenty of people who would not agree. We may as well be talking about politics or religion.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

Basil Hayden's said:


> Just a curious follow up. Straightforward answers, PLEASE.
> 
> Scott Berg said:
> 
> ...


Moss Meadow Traveler is by CH. Taz who is a Grandson of Tekoa Mountain Sunrise.

Quail Trap Sadie and Max (full brother and sister) are by 4x RU CH Emmys Apple Jack who is by Reroy who's father was Grouse Ridge Leroy. Leroy's Father was Long Gone Sam who is a cornerstone in Long Gone Kennels breeding program (your named notable CD breeder) AND an 2x RU-CH All Age Dog.


Chips Uncle Buzzy is by Needlepoint Bigbad John who is my Needlepoint Tomoka who is sired by Tomoka. a HB dog. On BigBad Johns otherside the bitch was sired by Ch. Brannigan. a HB dog.

True Patriot is out of True Citizen who was a HB dog. His Grandsire on his mom's side is Hamiltons Blue Diamond. A HB dog.

Bruce covered Fireside Drama Queen.

Its prudent to note that a lot of these sires and grandsires produced HB and Coverdog Setters during their life. Sometimes its the path you chose not abilities of the dog.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

Basil,

Do you think a HB dog is just allowed to run off? They have to handle too, or else you will never get them around the course. A Coverdog just hunts with a different pattern.


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## Basil Hayden's (Apr 12, 2013)

Thank you for your additional comments in follow up to my questions. However, "plenty" of HB blood (as you now state) is different than "frequent" and "significant amount" as stated earlier.

I understand that from time to time the recognized breeders of various FT venues look outside (horseback blood in this discussion about good grouse dogs) for outcross opportunities. Frankly, periodic outcrossing to HB blood had nothing to do with my questions, which were based on YOUR original comments which I highlighted.

You used terms such as: "FREQUENT" and "SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT". Frequent means "Occurring or done on many occasions, in many cases, or in quick succession". 

Regarding parents / grandparents....If an "EQUAL" percentage amount of something is 50/50; a "SIGNIFICANT PERCENTAGE AMOUNT" would be much higher than 50/50. Too far beyond grandparents in the pedigree does not constitute a SIGNIFICANT percentage amount or FREQUENT use of HB blood. Rather, it becomes a minority percentage amount of which is certainly contributory, but NOT frequent or significant as you stated and implied. There are exceptions as was pointed out by the talented setter mentioned.

Like others might be, I'm rather interested in seeing the impact Shadow Oak Bo might bring to setterdom, and the grouse woods. Additionally, I do not think the title "good grouse dog" only comes from coverdog breedings, English Setters or field trial breedings at all. It's certainly a great place to look or start in my opinion, but there are lots of "good grouse dog" bloodlines and breeds that aren't necessarily exclusively recognized as "coverdog" breeding.


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## Basil Hayden's (Apr 12, 2013)

kellyM87 said:


> Basil,
> 
> Do you think a HB dog is just allowed to run off? They have to handle too, or else you will never get them around the course. A Coverdog just hunts with a different pattern.


There are a handful of folks we may know in common who know my background and that I have been a wild upland bird hunter for nearly 37 years having trained my first of many English setters at 12 years old. I'll be at the Traverse City trial and we can swap stories of our HB dog experience then if you'd like.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Basil Hayden's said:


> There are a handful of folks we may know in common who know my background and that I have been a wild upland bird hunter for nearly 37 years having trained my first of many English setters at 12 years old. I'll be at the Traverse City trial and we can swap stories of our HB dog experience then if you'd like.


Don't scare my judge away please. 


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> Just for the record, let's not confuse the great HOF pointer (of which there are many) _Elhew Swami_ with the great _Swami of Setterdom_.
> Carry on.


That's funny

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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Basil Hayden's said:


> Thank you for your additional comments in follow up to my questions. However, "plenty" of HB blood (as you now state) is different than "frequent" and "significant amount" as stated earlier.
> 
> I understand that from time to time the recognized breeders of various FT venues look outside (horseback blood in this discussion about good grouse dogs) for outcross opportunities. Frankly, periodic outcrossing to HB blood had nothing to do with my questions, which were based on YOUR original comments which I highlighted.
> 
> ...


My dictionary defines significant as "having or likely to have influence or effect". I would not interpret that as much higher than 50/50. That would not make sense in this context. If the breeding had a majority of HB blood we would be describing it as HB blood. If we are talking about dog breeding it stands to reason that the majority of ancestry would be cover dogs. Had I meant to imply a majority I would have stated so specifically. 

SRB


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Basil Hayden's said:


> i'd now like to retract everything i posted in this thread!!!
> I repent!! I was wrong!! Im sorry!! Please forgive me!!


Too late brown water

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

I knew I should have changed my date. Damn. This isn't going in my favor.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Basil Hayden's have you meet chewy? You two should get together open a bottle of shine and discuss dogs and the lack of knowledge the rest of use here have on trial dogs and breeding.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> In my opinion being qualified to judge involves the ability to set bias size, read and comprehend the criteria, understand the objective of the criteria and apply it to the dogs running that day.
> 
> To use Keith's analogy, hunting ability and judging ability are apples and oranges. Just cause someone has been steelhead fishing 35 years does not mean they are better, or have a better outstanding of, say, my buddy Nick whose been doing it three years.
> 
> ...


Of course when you have both age/experience coupled with ability it's the best of all worlds.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Age isn't understood until it's obtained.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

RecurveRx said:


> Age isn't understood until it's obtained.


This might be the most insightful post in this thread but Fritz has point too. 99.99% of the people who have been in the software business the exact same period of time as Bill Gates are not going to be as capable. As this relates to dogs, many people like to say it is all about exposure to wild birds to which I disagree after keeping many siblings over the years and giving them the same exposure/opportunity. (Jays point) 

Experience is a great teacher when it comes to dogs but what constitutes experience? All I can say is that I learned a lot more about dogs after I started field trialing at age 32. I had already bagged 1365 ruffed grouse and I dont know how many pheasants so, to Fritzs point, I knew about harvesting game. The experiencing breeding was helpful too but I still had a lot to learn. Part of it is that you end up hunting, training, trialing, and just talking dogs with experienced and accomplished dog people when you are involved with trials.

Trials really illustrate the importance of application and how to judge it. The same is true of biddability. Trials also shine a spotlight on manners around game and how dogs take training. Breaking dogs steady to wing and shot exposes things about a dog. I can only guess what percentage of hunters break their dogs steady to wing, shot and fall but I can tell you that it has been and continues to be educational for me.

SRB


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

My current dog has some big name HB, cover, and shooting dog scattered in his pedigree. He's a mishmash of CH/HOF dogs and its a miracle but he finds grouse just fine. No worries here. Carry on. 

Fritz, whats the date of your trial again? I may throw out a few chukar for the dog this spring and bring him up if the dates work out. He's bored. I'm bored. I need to sit in a chair and listen to grouse stories, whistles, yells, gunshots, and lies all while working on my tan.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> My current dog has some big name HB, cover, and shooting dog scattered in his pedigree. He's a mishmash of CH/HOF dogs and its a miracle but he finds grouse just fine. No worries here. Carry on.
> 
> Fritz, whats the date of your trial again? I may throw out a few chukar for the dog this spring and bring him up if the dates work out. He's bored. I'm bored. I need to sit in a chair and listen to grouse stories, whistles, yells, gunshots, and lies all while working on my tan.


Dave, we are on may 5th but full at this time. There is another trial on May 11th in Cadillac though that you should come too. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

Dave Medema said:


> My current dog has some big name HB, cover, and shooting dog scattered in his pedigree. He's a mishmash of CH/HOF dogs and its a miracle but he finds grouse just fine. No worries here. Carry on.
> 
> Fritz, whats the date of your trial again? I may throw out a few chukar for the dog this spring and bring him up if the dates work out. He's bored. I'm bored. I need to sit in a chair and listen to grouse stories, whistles, yells, gunshots, and lies all while working on my tan.


My dog is all HB bred too. Somehow he handles and finds wild birds just fine as some MSers can attest to. My BF has a Coverdog pup that needed more work handling than my HB dog.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

Jay Johnson said:


> Of course when you have both age/experience coupled with ability it's the best of all worlds.


Sometimes I think a newbie to something has a better (for lack of better term) view than someone who has been doing something for a long time. They are not yet set in their ways, so they are flexible and fresh.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

RecurveRx said:


> Age isn't understood until it's obtained.


But, unfortunately, when it comes to grouse hunting with age doesn't necessarily come increased knowledge. 

For example. A guy says he's been grouse hunting for "x" number of years. During that time he's hunted the same covers year after year without gaining an understanding of how to pattern birds to different types of cover based on time of year and/or conditions. But he's satisfied going to his covers and getting his dogs "x" number of contacts a season and shooting "x" number of birds from those contacts.

Let's say the guy lives in grouse heaven with diverse habitat and is fortunate enough to get into a fair number of birds each time out, so he is satisfied with he and his dog's productivity and becomes complacent. But then he takes a trip to a geographical area that doesn't hold the number of birds he's use to coming across in his home covers and doesn't possess the knowledge to seek out specific types of cover for the given conditions he's confronted with in the "away" game cover.

Or take a guy that lives in an area where grouse numbers are sparse, but he's able to get he and his dog a couple or a few bird contacts each time out and he shoots a bird every time or every other time out. He's satisfied with his productivity and becomes complacent -- failing to seek out covers that might be more productive for him given the conditions he's confronted with. He basically plateaus in his knowledge because he's satisfied with his bird encounters.

I'd hazard to guess that the majority of grouse hunters fit into the complacency category primarily because they don't have the luxury of time to "experiment" with trying to increase their knowledge by seeking out alternative covers and failing in some cases or succeeding in other cases. They are out hunting as a hobby using the precious comodity of free time available to them, be it based on employment, family responsibilities, multiple hobbies, etc.

Very few individuals truly understand how to effectively hunt grouse in a manner that has a direct impact on their harvest results.

What do you think?

And Kelly - insert she or her where you see he or him.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

kellyM87 said:


> Sometimes I think a newbie to something has a better (for lack of better term) view than someone who has been doing something for a long time. They are not yet set in their ways, so they are flexible and fresh.



I agree with both Jay and Kelly and Berg, I can relate it to fishing again. (Edit: I agree with Keith too)

Ric and I fish a river a lot, to the point we are "locals." Earlier this year I gave an earful to a group of "veterans" that had a chain saw for the purpose of their bank side fire. When I said fires and cutting live or dead wood was not good for the habitat I was immediately challenged with "how long have you been fishing this river?" 

Of course that is the easy defense, of course anyone with any knowledge or common sense will tell you that stream hydrology comes from a watershed macro point of view not a micro in stream point of view. I mentioned we don't have many fish, but he's been coming for 40 years once a year on a weekend after a rain, so essentially in 40 years he's fished the river 160 days. Some of us, well we fish that river that many days in a couple seasons, in high water, low water, cold water, clear water. Who has a better understanding of the watershed?

I also remember as a kid at Walnut Hills Country Club, some folks played golf every day all summer, they broke 90 once a year, that was it, despite an awesome dedication, but never got good at it. Yet some 2 handicap play once a week. Talent. 

Trying to quantify things when it comes to hunting or judging or setters is a challenge. That's life. 

I don't discriminate against young, old, or someplace in the middle when it comes to any aspect of my life, business, sports, dogs, hunting, fishing. The Age card is flawed in so many ways.



Keith,

In your line of work, you ever seen a young Lawyer out perform an older experienced lawyer? I've face age discrimination everyday, last week I was interviewing a potential Manager for one of my properties, the first words out of her mouth were "you are a lot younger than I thought you'd be." It's nothing like my wife experienced though, not from patients, but from fellow Doctors.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> . . .Keith,
> 
> In your line of work, you ever seen a young Lawyer out perform an older experienced lawyer? I've face age discrimination everyday, last week I was interviewing a potential Manager for one of my properties, the first words out of her mouth were &quot;you are a lot younger than I thought you'd be.&quot; It's nothing like my wife experienced though, not from patients, but from fellow Doctors.


Yes, I do see it happen Fred. Primarily in the area tech advances in legal research and case presentation. If you get complacent (see my post above) you risk failing to increase your knowledge and skill set which can have an adverse impact on your results.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Scott Berg said:


> This might be the most insightful post in this thread but Fritz has point too. *99.99% of the people who have been in the software business the exact same period of time as Bill Gates are not going to be as capable.*
> SRB


Not all programmers are created equal. I've seen people who hold Master's Degrees in Computer Science who were horrid programmers that would never be good at the job no matter how much you make them work at it. Conversely, I've seen guys with nothing more than high school diploma's turn out to be absolutely brilliant programmers who can produce quality code and a lot of it.



Scott Berg said:


> As this relates to dogs, many people like to say it is all about exposure to wild birds to which I disagree after keeping many siblings over the years and giving them the same exposure/opportunity. (Jays point)
> SRB


To say any dog can magically be a good bird finder, or especially a good grouse dog, with enough exposure is just flat wrong. I think we agree there. Be it a well thought out breeding or not, a dog has to have the right make up for the job to be successful. But I stand by my earlier statement in that all things being equal, the dog that spends its life hunting grouse in the woods will always have a huge advantage over the dog that does not.

I've lost count of how many stories I've seen about successful quail dogs having a hard time in the woods. That doesn't mean it isn't done and that guys don't line birds up on the tail gate, but you have to wonder how much harder they had to work to get those birds in a given day than guys whose dogs live and breath grouse hunting.


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## Basil Hayden's (Apr 12, 2013)

WestCoastHunter said:


> To say any dog can magically be a good bird finder, or especially a good grouse dog, with enough exposure is just flat wrong. I think we agree there. Be it a well thought out breeding or not, a dog has to have the right make up for the job to be successful.
> 
> I've lost count of how many stories I've seen about successful quail dogs having a hard time in the woods. That doesn't mean it isn't done and that guys don't line birds up on the tail gate, but you have to wonder how much harder they had to work to get those birds in a given day than guys whose dogs live and breath grouse hunting.


If I may add this:

Its my experience that "good" grouse dogs have a much easier time transitioning and being successful on wild quail hunting trips down south than "very good" wild (bobwhite) "covey dogs" transitioning and being successful on ruffed grouse trips up north. Some never become "good" grouse dogs no matter how hard you try.

I have found that the hard part for grouse dogs on quail is not in the handling, manners around birds; it's the adaptation and learning curve of the habitat differences and "digging up" coveys on the periodic trips south with limited time. Conversely, I have found the hard part for BW covey dogs is in the handling and staunchness around ruffed grouse MORE-SO than the habitat differences and "digging up" grouse on the periodic trips north with limited time. 

Just one guys perspective, don't take my head off. I already know....I'm wrong and should read more and post less. Please save the bandwidth...I said it was MY experience; others may have a different experience.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> To say any dog can magically be a good bird finder, or especially a good grouse dog, with enough exposure is just flat wrong. I think we agree there. Be it a well thought out breeding or not, a dog has to have the right make up for the job to be successful. But I stand by my earlier statement in that all things being equal, the dog that spends its life hunting grouse in the woods will always have a huge advantage over the dog that does not.
> 
> I've lost count of how many stories I've seen about successful quail dogs having a hard time in the woods. That doesn't mean it isn't done and that guys don't line birds up on the tail gate, but you have to wonder how much harder they had to work to get those birds in a given day than guys whose dogs live and breath grouse hunting.


Yes, we agree. I started to a story of two siblings but I did not want to write a long response. I was trying to share the experiences I have had keeping more than one pup out of numerous litters. As Fritz and others have pointed out, some simply have more talent or ability. TerHaar's Rogue won a major cover dog Championship as a fall derby.

SRB


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2006)

She is also sired by a throwdown horseback quail dog.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> She is also sired by a throwdown horseback quail dog.


John do you guys kill many ruffed grouse over her? Compared to Elvis? to Rocko? I recall Dave (or maybe it was you) saying that Rocko was a pretty special wild bird dog.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Despite the severe breed handicap I've always admired Rogue a lot.

I think if a dog (like Rogue) can get it done consistently in trials where you can't choose your course, can't choose your time of day, can't choose your weather and can't choose your route through cover, then hunting is going to generally be a cake walk.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> John do you guys kill many ruffed grouse over her? Compared to Elvis? to Rocko? I recall Dave (or maybe it was you) saying that Rocko was a pretty special wild bird dog.


Scott,

I was in the UP with Dave and Jonathon right before she won the Wisconsin CH. She pointed a bunch of birds on that trip. I don't know if she will be as good as Rocko. He was the real deal. You would have to ask Dave's opinion but I think it's possible.

Rogue impressed the hell out of me the year before on the prairie as a puppy. We we broke camp I told Dave she was going to be a Champion and I wanted the next pick after him out of the first litter. He called before before he even hit the tar when she won that CH. I congratulated him and then was sure to remind him of that previous discussion. She is a hell of a bird dog plus she is a brick around game. 

I don't know the dam but her sire was out of a super litter. The three males were Ch Smarty Smith, CH The Insider and Berg's Premium Blend. Harold kept them all until they were Derbies and he was nice enough to call and offer me my choice of the other two. It was kind of a toss up between the two but we picked Max because Harold said he was the one that was constantly in birds.

SRB


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