# Info needed on wirehaired daschunds



## dachshund (Dec 4, 2009)

Jagdteckel said:


> Dachshund, I don't think anyone was actually lying, only that there are so many 'half-truths' about (wirehair) dachshunds circling in this country.
> 
> Like Jolanta said, and I am sure you know also, the wirehairs are the most popular hunting dachshund in Europe, but you probably know too that they are just the most popular dachshund, period. It was partly due to 'fashion' in earlier years, like anything in any breed. Everybody was breeding wirehairs....
> Fortunately there are more and more smooths recently in Europe again, also with hunters....
> ...



Sorry, but when I read some of the postings, I forgot you are not german hunters. So I thought, there are lies. But of course there are no lies, there is only a lot of lack of knowledge. So I will try to declare some things.

Yes, the wire hair dachshunds are the most popular. This happened in the beginning of the 70th last century. There were the Olympic games in Munich, and the mascot of these games was a dachshund. And since this time, everybody wants a wire hair. But befor 1972, the most of the dachshunds were longhair (for family and show) and smooth (for hunting). And now, it turns again, slowly, but it seems to turn arund.

In Germany we arrange the hunting dogs in different groups. There are pointer (p. e. DD, DK, DL), tracking dogs (p. e. HS, BGS), flushing dogs (p. e. Deutscher Wachtel, Spaniels) and earth dogs (dachshunds and terriers). Although the dachshund is an origin "Bracke" like HS and BGS, and although he is predestinated for flushing, his main work is under the earth. This is his element. So it is a great pity only to use him for blood tracking.

I can say, that I had long hair, wire hair and now smooth. And I hunted and hunt with them without any problems. There were no differences concerning the weather.


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## robert miler (Sep 24, 2008)

I just wanted to say that I am glad to see all this great new info and to have Dachshund and jagdteckel join MS. They will bring great info on the dachshund breed and also any help about blood tracking. I said some things that I regret. some times we speak before we think and I learned a valuable lesson. Once again I think some good came out of all of this and that was my point in the beginning of this thread. Thanks Rob


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## dachshund (Dec 4, 2009)

Jagdteckel said:


> ... This is just to tackle a few issues, but I am sure that you, Dachshund can tell us more of how dachshunds are being used for blood tracking in Germany, the country of breed's origin.


I think, the german hunters have another attitude for hunting than the american hunters. A german hunter pusues a trade, an american hunter is a sportsman. And concerning of the animal protection a hunter is engaged to find the game and to deliver from pain as soon as possible.

So, blood tracking is very important and top ranked. And so, we breed dogs for this work since a long time. In the middle age they had a dog called "Leithund". This dog was a "Bracke" with a very fine nose and this dog had to find deers for the aristocrats. The Leithund is known since the antiquity!!! 

Then there came fire arms and this kind of dog was no longer so important. So this dog disappeared. But sometimes later they did need him again, because many animals were not dead immediately, but were hurt. And they needed a dog to find theses animals. So they tried to breed this dog back, not so big and heavy, but smaller, more maneuverable, keener, to be able to pull down and to burke game. So they breeded the "Hannoveraner Schweißhund" (HS). Still today this is the most famous dog for blood tracking. He is the direct descendent of the "Leithund". But the HS is still big and he is not very keen (I hope this is the right term), and so another specialist for blood tracking became bred, the "Bayerische Gebirgsschweißhund" (BGS). I think, you call him "Bavarian mountain dog". This dog is smaller and more nimble than the HS. He is used in the mountains mainly. And then, last not least, there is the dachshund as the smallest. But all these dogs are "Bracken" and are decendents of the Leithund.

And if you know, that the waire hair dachshund has terriers and the pinscher in his blood, you can understand, that it is impossible that they should be better for blood tracking than the smooth. So it is nonsens if anybody tells, a wire hair is the specialist for blood tracking.


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## robert miler (Sep 24, 2008)

Dachshund, What info can you give about tracking in the snow or if the ground is frozen and there is no snow present? which time of day is better,( night or day time). and how long will the scent be available for the dog to smell? Thanks Rob


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## dachshund (Dec 4, 2009)

robert miler said:


> Dachshund, What info can you give about tracking in the snow or if the ground is frozen and there is no snow present? which time of day is better,( night or day time). and how long will the scent be available for the dog to smell? Thanks Rob



Hi,
how much snow do you have? In my area, there are mostly less than 30 cm (12 inch??) and so it is no problem at all for a dog (and his handler ). But if there is more than 20 inch, it will be difficult, because the dog gets always some snow in his nose and this snow becomes water and clotures his "Riechzellen" (sorry I don't know the english term).
If the ground is frozen, the work is more difficult, but a dog can do his job.
In Germany we always try to search in day time, because in the night you can see nothing yourself, and if there is a wounded wild boar... good night. It's difficult to say, how long a dog can smell the scent. Which ground? which weather? a very good dog? But a normal dog should be able to find the scent for one or two days.


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## Jagdteckel (Dec 4, 2009)

"Riechzellen" are odor receptors in the nasal cavity.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2009)

Jolanta said:


> IWe don't sell our dogs for little money because we put a lot of our time and work into them. We import dogs from Europe and evaluate them. We use for breeding only the best individuals (usually 50% of what we import). Evaluation and strict selection are integral parts of our breeding program.
> 
> We do not put together just any two dogs out of European breeding
> 
> ...


Well what you wrote sounds fine and I would love to hear more about your breeding program with European lines!


How much you know about the lines you use for breeding?

How much you know about the working style of the ancestors of your dogs?
If you always import dogs how can you evaluate the working skills?
Well I saw that you import a male out of &#8220;Scandinavian&#8221; combination, how much you know about the prey drive of these dogs.

These lines you use are not very special for blood tracking, because in Scandinavia they seldom use Dachshunds for recovering wounded game.

I think if you are looking for a special blood tracking dog than you should take a Bavarian or a Hanovarian Scenthound.
But if you look for a multible dog in a small sice you should take a dachshund out of the right lines.
It is important that the breeder not only look on things around the boold tracking it is important that the line you choose has enough prey drive bcause this is the key for sucsess.
I think I know what I am talking about

Oh I forgot to introduce my self
My name is Stefan Fuß
I am breeding wire haired Dachshunds in Germany under the name 
&#8220;von der Bismarck-Eiche&#8221;



your obedient servant
Stefan Fuß
Please excuse my bad English


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## robert miler (Sep 24, 2008)

dachshund said:


> Hi,
> how much snow do you have? In my area, there are mostly less than 30 cm (12 inch??) and so it is no problem at all for a dog (and his handler ). But if there is more than 20 inch, it will be difficult, because the dog gets always some snow in his nose and this snow becomes water and clotures his "Riechzellen" (sorry I don't know the english term).
> If the ground is frozen, the work is more difficult, but a dog can do his job.
> In Germany we always try to search in day time, because in the night you can see nothing yourself, and if there is a wounded wild boar... good night. It's difficult to say, how long a dog can smell the scent. Which ground? which weather? a very good dog? But a normal dog should be able to find the scent for one or two days.


 Thanks, we get about about 6-12inch's at times during are late season. We Mostly have frozen ground with 1-6 inch of snow.


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## timberdoodle528 (Nov 25, 2003)

Just wanted to show off my little guy! Aldo is 10 weeks and just had his first find. This doe went 100 yards, pretty straight, nothing tough about this bloodtrail at all. Just a great experience for our pup.


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## robert miler (Sep 24, 2008)

timberdoodle528 said:


> Just wanted to show off my little guy! Aldo is 10 weeks and just had his first find. This doe went 100 yards, pretty straight, nothing tough about this blood trail at all. Just a great experience for our pup.


 Your pup is getting a nose full of good stuff at a young age. (very important in making a great deer tracker) just stay focused and always trust the nose. Rob


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## bjw (Dec 20, 2007)

This is a very interesting thread. I have beagles and have been thinking for a while about getting a dog for blood tracking. I love watching dogs preform the tasks they were bred for. Does anyone hunt beagls with dachshund?


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## duke7581 (Dec 30, 2008)

i'm suppose to go yest and go after some bunnies with a friend who has some beagles but my little guy got sick. Look forward to running rabbits with the dachshunds and beagles. will let ya know how it goes, or if your up near the UP we could go run some.


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## Jolanta (Dec 2, 2009)

Stefan Fuß said:


> Well what you wrote sounds fine and I would love to hear more about your breeding program with European lines!
> 
> How much you know about the lines you use for breeding?
> 
> ...


These are very good questions Stefan with no simple answers. We import enough dogs to keep a very small gene pool of working wires alive. This is not easy to do. Every time we import a puppy, we take a chance. We keep the pup and work with him/her. 

Three years ago we imported two pups from two breeders who breed hunting lines. We decided to place one puppy in a pet home only after four months of having her, the other one we kept for a year and a half and placed in a pet home too. We don't select only for blood tracking potential but for health, temperament, functional conformation, reproductive qualities. We select for other (not related to bloodtracking) working qualities too. We don't use in our breeding dogs who are not spurlaut even though this characteristic is not critical for blood tracking. We don't breed narrow specialists but our aim is to breed dachshunds which can blood track. Not all dachshunds can. Here in the USA there are no other real jobs for standard dachshunds - just blood tracking.

Our youngest female now, eight month old Paika goes back six generations to the cross I made in 1991:
1. *Fausto* de la Grande Futaie (French import) by Rivendells Ruby Tuesday (American show line). This produced Kuba (Zuzelek's Globetrotter) who was better than either parent
2. Next generation was *Branie *vom Dornenfeld bred to Kuba, whcih produced Agata von Moosbach-Zuzelek
3. Agata was bred to *Asko* von der Drachenburg, and this produced Elli von Moosbach-Zuzelek
4. Elli was bred to *Alfi* von der Hardt-Hoehe, and produced Billy von Moosbach-Zuzelek
5. Billy was bred to Gilda von Moosbach-Zuzelek (Sabina and Asko's daughter) and this produced Keena von Moosbach-Zuzelek
6. Keena was bred to a French import Du *Theo* de la Meute a Cheops and produced Paika von Moosbach-Zuzelek.

In our experience the best cross we have ever made was Zalud Staccato by Gerte vom Dornenfeld, and we go back to this bloodline time after time. Asko von der Drachenburg, even though half-Finnish proved to be an excelent producer of blood trackers. We have had experience with other good producers of blood trackers but sometimes got unpleasant surprises - for example undescendant testicles etc.

Dogs with the bold font were imported - two from France, three from Germany, in total four by us and one by a friend from Canada. Asko is on both sides of Paika pedigree and so this in an example of line-breeding. At every step of breeding, a selection was performed. We certainly know more about dogs that have produced than about the dogs we have imported, but this is the best that we can do. We don't live in Europe and are not able to visit often but we have gone to Germany and France several times and talked to numerous breeders. We watched blood tracking tests and competitions. Every year we buy a DTK Zuchtbuch and study it. Breeding is a process, and with every generation you have to prioritize - for example - you have to sacrifice conformation for spurlaut. We try not to double on weaknesses. We know that not all our puppies are going to be perfect blood trackers, and this is why we keep them here for longer and we don't sell them at 7 or 8 weeks. At that age we have no idea yet what we have.

Basically we do the best we can with resources we have. We are proud of the dogs we have produced over the years. Our dogs don't lack prey drive. Actually some owners would say that they have too much of it! We don't cut corners, and we provide a great deal of support to our puppy buyers. 

As I said befor I have never claimed that wires are better than smooths or longs. But we breed wires, or at least try to do so. Ninety percent of wires we have imported carry a gene for the smooth coat so we do get one or two smooths in almost every litter.

Jolanta Jeanneney


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## Jagdteckel (Dec 4, 2009)

Stefan Fuß said:


> These lines you use are not very special for blood tracking, because in Scandinavia they seldom use Dachshunds for recovering wounded game.


 I don't totally agree with this statement, for Scandinavia still consists of 4 different countries. The dachshund may not be used as much for recovering wounded game in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway, but I actually know quite a few standard smooths that are used for that purpose in Finland. Not sure how it is with the wirehairs.... 

The FINNISH blood tracking tests are -imho- much tougher than the DTK (German) tests. I have been at a test in Ruotsynpyhtaa (SE Finland) and several DTK tests, so this info is from first hand personal experience. 
It takes quite an effort to become a Finnish blood tracking champion. Not in the last place due to the terrain and climate, but the test requirements are very serious too.
In addition to this, in order to become a SHOW champion the Finnish dachshunds have to still pass the first level of blood tracking tests 2 times. To become a blood tracking champion, they have to pass additional tests (3x) at a more difficult level with the best possible scores (Prize I bracket of points). 
The German tests on the other hand are generally only taken once.

So for this reason, I am of the opinion that on average a dachshund in Finland is automatically a better blood tracker than in Germany.
No offense to the country of origin!! German dogs are great, but as a breeder you have to know all the individual bloodlines and kennels very well in order to breed for specific traits.


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## Jolanta (Dec 2, 2009)

Few more thoughts regarding my last post:

1. There was one error there. It is Keena who has Asko on both sides of pedigree not Paika.

2. The breeding startegy we use most of the time is called *assortative mating*. It is described very well in articles by late John Armstrong. You can google it. We don't inbreed and if we linebreed, it is usually not very closely.

3. We prefer tighter and harsher, more functional coats on wires than some German breeders do. I will take a smooth coat any time over the faulty, soft and fluffy wirehaired coat that behaves like a mop in the wet weather. You cannot avoid them completely as wirehaired coats come in a wide range, but we try to stay away from them. I think that the DTK makes a huge mistake by eliminating smooth dachshunds that come out of wirehaired parents from further breeding. I have a post on this at borntotrackpuppies.blogspot.com/2009/05/problems-with-coats-in-wirehaired.html

Since John started to breed in 1968 and I had my first litter in 1991, between the two of us we have enough first hand experience to know what works and what does not work for us. 

Jolanta Jeanneney


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## duke7581 (Dec 30, 2008)

I think this is great all background info were getting, but i think we need to start a thread on the small game forum of all the other things we do/hunt with our dachshunds. It would be great if dachshund and Stefan could comment on all the things they do with there dogs and also post a bunch of pics of there dogs in action. People around here still think i'm nuts when i try and explain to them how versatile these dogs are.


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## Jagdteckel (Dec 4, 2009)

Duke, Dachshund and Stefan Fuss can't reply instantly. They went wild boar hunting close to Berlin for 5 days with their 'poochies'.  
Told them to take loads of pics. Hope they will post them on this forum.


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## Jagdteckel (Dec 4, 2009)

bjw said:


> This is a very interesting thread. I have beagles and have been thinking for a while about getting a dog for blood tracking. I love watching dogs preform the tasks they were bred for. Does anyone hunt beagls with dachshund?


 I have hunted with my dogs together with beagles a few times.


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## wildlands (Dec 31, 2007)

Jagdteckel, do you know what Ravier (sp) they are hunting on. I have a friend that had a big hunt on the place he manages for a a Duke. There are several big hunts going on this time of year was just wondering. I was over there this time lst year and it snowed a lot and they did not have as good a hunt as normal.


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## Jagdteckel (Dec 4, 2009)

Wildlands, I don't know the specific Revier they're in, but it is close to Berlin (Brandenburg). I was supposed to go too, but couldn't due to family obligations here... 

You may know that in the Berlin area the wild boar population is getting out of hand. These animals are also seen in the city. The hunters can't hunt in the city and the Berlin police does not know how to kill the boars. 

Parks are closed now (till January) to allow large hunts to limit down the number of wild boars. It would be quite a coincidence if your friend is in the same hunt as "Dachshund" and Stefan.... but you never know though...


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## bjw (Dec 20, 2007)

duke7581 said:


> i'm suppose to go yest and go after some bunnies with a friend who has some beagles but my little guy got sick. Look forward to running rabbits with the dachshunds and beagles. will let ya know how it goes, or if your up near the UP we could go run some.


I live over by Grand Rapids. If I get up your way I would love to see youe dogs. Good luck with them.


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## dachshund (Dec 4, 2009)

Hi,
we are back again. The hunting areas we were are "Reiersdorf", "Poraz" and "Zehdenick". I think, Stefan will set up some fotos (I don't know how this works here).


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## wildlands (Dec 31, 2007)

Dachshund I will have to look up where I was at. I know I fley into Nurenburg and flew out of Munick. I have all the places written down somewhere. I do know one of the places was right on the old Soviet line as there was an old check station about 100 meters down from where we entered the revier.

I hope yall had a good time I look forward to seeing those pictures.


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