# Hooking Mortality Studies



## Splitshot

Butch said:


> You said "Gear restrictions discriminate against bait fishermen for no scientific reason.


I should have said for no compelling scientific reason.




Butch said:


> In my opinion (stop reading if you don't want to hear it) and as you raised regarding the Big Man below 72, the real but often unspoken reason that some want to exclude bait fishermen is because as a whole, bait fishermen are more likely to want to keep fish. Incidental mortality doesn't mean nearly as much if they go in the creel regardless of how they are hooked. But the fanatical bait excluders know they have less support for adding C&R water than adding artificials only water.


Agreed! The bait fishermen who fish with forked sticks dont release many fish in my opinion and once they get their limit they are done. In addition as Whit stated, it isnt as easy as people think to catch big fish on bait. Little ones certainly and as you know catching big trout on spinners and plugs isnt a gimme either. As summer nears, the number of trout fishermen is seriously reduced. Even the head guy of TU stated that the pressure on the PM was no problem. And yes it is the trout they care about, not the potamodromous (just learned a new word) or migratory fish. 



Butch said:


> Calling special regs "discriminatory" begs the question. Bait fishermen are not a class protected by law. Discrimination is only improper if it is a distinction that is specified by law as illegal, usually because it is not supported by scientific data (women pay lower life insurance rates than men) or based on social considerations (affirmative action). Butch


So do you think Polish bait fishermen meet the definition of a protected class? lol We could use a good legal mind, but discrimination exists even outside the legal world and most people know it when they see it. I dont think gear restrictions rules would be discriminatory if there was some compelling conservation or scientific reason for restricting bait fishermen and that is why the other side is trying so hard to get the bait hooking mortality argument to stick.


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## Whit1

Butch said:


> As for the mortality rate, it isn't alarmist, it just "is".
> 
> And, for 10% of the fishermen to catch 90% of the fish is DISCRIMINATION, dagnabbit:yikes:
> 
> Butch



Yes it is "alarmist". It puts the picture in mind that bait anglers are killing a huge amount of trout. However that stat, in the overall picture, is meaningless if a trout isn't caught. That raw piece of data, while it may....or may not be true....is just that...."a piece of data" and it must be looked at in the reality of the fact that trout.....I'm not speaking of freshly planted fish....are not that easy to catch.

Look at what we see on these boards about streams being "blown out". It's been my experience that trout angling members of MS consider these conditions to make a stream unfishable. While that may be true for flies and hardware..unless one uses the correct color...it is not so with bait. Yet we see time and again anglers on this site throw in the towel when streams get high and colored up. Simply put, and not to reveal any secrets, trout anglers who believe that don't know what they're talking about.

Again my point is the fact that most trout anglers really don't know how to catch trout in numbers that would threaten a stream's population and using hooking mortality rates for bait......and I do believe they've been exaggerated.........don't present a real picture. They only apply when a trout is actually caught and most trout anglers don't catch many trout.

Over the years I've fished with some damn fine trout fisherman who use bait. A few of them are on this site. Quite frankly they do catch a lot of fish and very few of them are hooked in a manner that would threaten the fish because of hooking. I've been known to catch a trout or two in my time as well and the same applies to me.


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## Butch

Touche' Whit, on many counts.

Sometimes I get too theoretical.

As Shoeman and others on my other thread gently pointed out, pie in the sky will not work in the real world. I just like to catch big brown trout.

Thanks for listening.

Butch


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## REG

Butch said:


> But even the fabled Wisc. study found an incidental mortality of 18%, which is about 3x that of artificials. [Butch


Educate me, which fabled Wisc. study?


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