# I need some vhf marine radio schooling



## BryPaulD (May 30, 2009)

Hi all, I have been thinking about/needing to get a vhf marine radio installed in the boat. I have no idea what to look for in a radio or an antenna. Hopin' you guys/gals can help me out here? Thanks in advance.

Bryan


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## 1mainiac (Nov 23, 2008)

How much of a training course you have time for? Seriously send me a PM with your number I will call you. I don't sell radios so no sales pitch involved I do however probably know as much or more about VHF radios as anyone in here. That does not mean I know the specs or info on any brand or model but as far as theory of operation, antenna design, and understanding how the new DSC features work and what they can do for you I am your man. I have my personal favorite radios but you can buy what you want. As far as basic use GIGO always applies other than that most any FCC type approved radio and antenna will get you legal. Radios like cars offer options and came with lots of choices all which cost money so first set a realistic budget for a radio and antenna as to what you can afford. Then look to get the most bang for your buck. Since the antenna and grounding system have the most effect on your actual radio operation this is a key area to not skimp a well thought out quality antenna system can make even the cheapest radio sound darn good I consider my radio setup on my boat to be cheap crap and many comment on how well it works I however want a new radio but I am a radio nut so that is just me. That said however my next radio upgrade will be a better antenna then I will get the radio I really want. ( it's only money right ) Pretty much every antenna advertises the same or similar specs there are however a wide variety of price points based on 2 things quality of materials and swr bandwidth. They pretty much go hand in hand as you actually can hang a peice of wire out the window and trim it to the correct length to get the swr in line and use it for a antenna however as you change channels you will lose performance as swr declines. This is where design bandwidth comes into play as while optimum performance sounds great you are often better with slighty less performance that you can get more use out of. IE more bandwidth and a flatter swr curve which means you get more consistant channel coverage. 
Pretty much most transmitter sections are about the same in radios and have to be to meet FCC rules. However even though the back end may be the same the front end differences can be huge while pretty much every radio you can buy now has DSC, these features vary much from manufacture to manufacture and model to model. One thing is Class D radios have to monitor the DSC channel at all times in the background non Class D radios can have DSC but it only works when you are on the DSC channel 70. These include RTCM radios and Class E which will eventually be replaced by class D. Other things to look for is send and receive on the NEMA which means not only will the radio receive and transmit position signals from the GPS unit they can also receive other stations transmited positions and send them to you gps plottere as waypoints. All DSC functions use MMSI numbers which are assigned to you and your boat and you program into the radio. These work somewhat like a phone number and anytime you use the DSC it transmits the MMSI number also if you share your number with a friend he can use it to call you directly or to send you a position report or request one from you. Many radios have a memory similar to a phonebook so you can store friends numbers like a speed dial to call them. I guess this is a good place to stop if you have specific questions let me know.


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## fishctchr (Dec 3, 2000)

Wow sounds like there is a lot more to vhf's than I ever knew. I have been using them on my boats for over 30 yrs, and I have a Raymarine vhf (low end) and a shakespeare galaxy 8ft antennae (high end) mounted on a 4ft extension with a standoff bracket. Works very well, I can routinely talk 12 to 15 miles and occasionally 60 or more. I once talked briefly to a capt friend in St. Joe from Ludington where I charter out of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 1mainiac (Nov 23, 2008)

Yep things have changed a bit for your antenna mounted up like that 12 to 15 sounds pretty reasonable those long distance contacts are the result of tropospheric ducting. Probably not spelled right but basiclly similar to skip on the old CB radio. DSC has added a lot of cool features to the new radios first and likely most important the ability for the radio to broadcast a emergency for you giving everyone with a DSC radio within range your position boat info and even the nature of the emergency. Once fully operational the Coast Guard will have all of you info similar to if you dial 911 on a phone they know within seconds whose phone it is and where it is at. Feature we can use every day include private calling boat to boat, exchanging positions between boats, voice scrambling, and group calling. Many of these features will work silently so your radio can work like a cell phone you call some one and the only one who hears the call is them you can pick a talk channel and when they accept the call both your radio and theirs switch to the new channel and no one hears a peep. Oh and for those loudmouths who like to swear and threaten people my bet is they will be more polite when they learn that the radio will give out there info and position to law enforcement.


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## BryPaulD (May 30, 2009)

I hope I'm not being cheap here, but my thought on a radio/antenna set up was going to shoot for around $150 - $200. Any suggestions? I am wondering about a good "small" antenna (8' would seem rather large on my boat)? My boat is a Rinker captiva 206. Thank you and great info


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## Sixshooter (Mar 16, 2003)

BryPaulD said:


> I hope I'm not being cheap here, but my thought on a radio/antenna set up was going to shoot for around $150 - $200. Any suggestions? I am wondering about a good "small" antenna (8' would seem rather large on my boat)? My boat is a Rinker captiva 206. Thank you and great info


I have an 8' on my 16' Lund. Go 8 or you will regret it.

The 3 and 4s are fine if they are mounted on top of a fly bridge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 1mainiac (Nov 23, 2008)

BryPaulD said:


> I hope I'm not being cheap here, but my thought on a radio/antenna set up was going to shoot for around $150 - $200. Any suggestions? I am wondering about a good "small" antenna (8' would seem rather large on my boat)? My boat is a Rinker captiva 206. Thank you and great info


In that price range you are closer to a handheld than a fixed radio. The reason I say this is because a decent antenna will be close to 100 bucks or more by itself than you will need a mount for the antenna and a radio. I suppose you could go dirt cheap on a radio and get setup for around 200 bucks. Do not skimp on the antenna it is the business end of the system and determines range and signal strength. A cheap radio with a good antenna will outpreform a great radio with a cheap antenna. Pick the best 8ft antenna you can afford with a mount then go look at radios and keep in mind you can always get a used radio to get started and buy a better radio later.


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## sslopok (Aug 24, 2009)

Ya the one on my lund is a small 3 foot Stainless shakespeare unit.  It was on there when I bought the boat. I just bought a Uniden Solaris vhf and we will see how it does when I get the radio installed. I am already guessing a bigger antenna is in order.
sslopok


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## paulywood (Sep 2, 2005)

I have been very happy with my radio setup. This is the second boat I have had it on and have had no problems. Routinely talk to guys out of Pt. Sheldon when I am in Muskegon and vice versa. And it is economical.

Uniden Solara radio. I think I got mine for about $100.

This Shakespeare antenna. When I bought mine they were exclusive to West Marine. 
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...=true&storeNum=5003&subdeptNum=3&classNum=309

I think West also has radio's on sale right now. Buy a mounting kit and you have a reliable radio for around $200. I have installed this same system on a couple of boats for friends and they have been happy wiwth it also.


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## BryPaulD (May 30, 2009)

Paulywood, I like the looks of that setup. Seems to be a good economical rig.

1maniac, what should I be looking for in an antenna to constitute a good antenna?

I really appreciate all the input from everyone so far. I hate asking all these questions, and will have more. Electrical stuff is not a srong suit of mine.

(still trying to picture my boat with an 8' going on) Wife's gonna love that  I'll tell her it's code


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## paulywood (Sep 2, 2005)

If you have a ratcheting mount the 8'er isn't a big deal. Just mount it on the gunnel and lay it down when not in use. If you want to be able to take it off use a Ram mount. You can take the antenna off and undo the cable if you don't want it on.


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## 1mainiac (Nov 23, 2008)

Swr bandwidth and quality of elements, one sign is the quality of mount and coax and connectors since you can't actually see the internal elements. West Marine has a display setup that shows each of the antennas as cutaways. These allow you to see what is inside larger diameter elements have more surface area so more bandwidth and a flatter swr curve this will make your radio much happier. Cheaper coax means more signal loss and less sheilding from interference quality solder on connectors are much better than crimp on connectors most companies know what the antenna is and add componets to match the enternal quality and build antennas based on price points so you start with the cheapest of everything and make improvements all the way till it is the best it can be Shakespear has a Mariner line that does this they also have a Galaxy line which starts a step up and also does the same thing. In some ways you might be better off with a high end Mariner than a low end Galaxy even though the Galaxy has a btter internal element because of the other componets involved.


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## BryPaulD (May 30, 2009)

well after looking around a little, looks like this is going to be about a $300 + investment. Has anyone got any recomendations on a mount? Gunnel, rail, etc. Also, place to mount, front and fold back or mid to back and fold forward? Thanks again, Bryan


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## mkroulik (Jan 14, 2003)

This thread has been great. Lots of good info. I'm looking to upgrade to a new radion this year. Already have the 8ft antenae, just looking for a radio with more features. Any suggestions? Looking to stay probably $300 and lower.

Mike


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## Fishbomb (Nov 21, 2000)

If you are going to be out in fairly rough water it is a good idea to use a stainless steel ratcheting mount. Waves will rock your antenna greatly. I've broken the cast kind and the plastic ones are weaker yet. Shakespere makes a good stainless steel one. Unless you are mounting it on a flybridge go with an 8 footer. As others have said get at least a $100 one. I recommend laying the antenna towards aft and keeping it tied down with a rubber grip mounted on the gunwale when not in use. Keep your marine antenna/cable away from your Sonar and GPS power wires and the GPS antenna. Most times that means the the antenna is mounted on the port side as power cables usually run back from the starboard side console to the battery. Avoid cable coiling. Coiling the cable will affect performance. It should be cut to length and the connection that plugs into the radio should be soldered to the cable. Check the instructions that come with the antenna for the proper length to cut cable. I remember something about it should be an odd number, 13ft as oppssed to 12ft for example, as it can affect wavelength or something. Good luck.


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## Oldgrandman (Nov 16, 2004)

A little off topic but here is a good information site for new users.

http://www.marineassist.ca/safety_and_standards/vhf_radio.php?area=safety_and_standards


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## 1mainiac (Nov 23, 2008)

Fishbomb said:


> If you are going to be out in fairly rough water it is a good idea to use a stainless steel ratcheting mount. Waves will rock your antenna greatly. I've broken the cast kind and the plastic ones are weaker yet. Shakespere makes a good stainless steel one. Unless you are mounting it on a flybridge go with an 8 footer. As others have said get at least a $100 one. I recommend laying the antenna towards aft and keeping it tied down with a rubber grip mounted on the gunwale when not in use. Keep your marine antenna/cable away from your Sonar and GPS power wires and the GPS antenna. Most times that means the the antenna is mounted on the port side as power cables usually run back from the starboard side console to the battery. Avoid cable coiling. Coiling the cable will affect performance. It should be cut to length and the connection that plugs into the radio should be soldered to the cable. Check the instructions that come with the antenna for the proper length to cut cable. I remember something about it should be an odd number, 13ft as oppssed to 12ft for example, as it can affect wavelength or something. Good luck.


Very good info as to cutting the length of coax it is best to have a SWR meter and check the setup on all channels. Yes there are lengths of coax that will cause you problems keep in mind the coax extends up inside of the antenna to the elements so there may be a couple of feet inside the antenna housing. Ideally you would want the coax length to be in 1/4 wave increments based on the center freq of operation which is roughly 156.8 mhz the base formula many of us use is 234/freq= length in feet so 234/156.8= 1.492 or roughly 18in. There is also a velocity factor involved which alters the formula but I won't get into that. This will get you into the ballpark and sometimes even cutting a 1/4 in off can make a big difference.


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## ih772 (Jan 28, 2003)

1mainiac said:


> Very good info as to cutting the length of coax it is best to have a SWR meter and check the setup on all channels. Yes there are lengths of coax that will cause you problems keep in mind the coax extends up inside of the antenna to the elements so there may be a couple of feet inside the antenna housing. Ideally you would want the coax length to be in 1/4 wave increments based on the center freq of operation which is roughly 156.8 mhz the base formula many of us use is 234/freq= length in feet so 234/156.8= 1.492 or roughly 18in. There is also a velocity factor involved which alters the formula but I won't get into that. This will get you into the ballpark and sometimes even cutting a 1/4 in off can make a big difference.


You can't really give them a formula for cutting coax to length without including velocity factor, especially on VHF. Then again I wouldn't bother cutting it to a specific length at all, you're not trying to match impedances, that was taken care of when it was designed and built at the factory. The antennas are made to be plug and play because 99.9% of guys putting a radio in their boat have no idea what SWR is because they don't have to know what it is. I wouldn't bother screwing around with shortening the coax unless you had 20 or 30 feet of extra. A bad connector installation, especially if a guy has never put one on before, will be more lossy than the extra amount of feedline to the antenna he was trying to eliminate.


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## 1mainiac (Nov 23, 2008)

Ok I agree I should not have opened this can of worms. However even without doing the math for velocity factor it should get them close enough. I am trying to keep some of this simple. However as long as they verify SWR they can cut it to length I cut mine to length and left a few in of slack hooked up my MFJ analyzer and did not like the results cut it back a 1/2 inch and it was much better 1.3 on ch 68 stayed below 2.0 down to 155.8 and up to 157.8 while triming the coax did very little for my SWR it did increase the bandwidth. I know these are really plug and play antennas but I wish they were tunable. Too bad a Ringo Ranger would look stupid on my boat at least I could tweak that LOL. Or better yet I could retune my 14el 2m beam it is still in the box cause I spend all my money on fishing gear so don't have the tower up for it LOL. Now if that would not be ******* nothing would. Oh well what I really want is a 706MKIIG remote mounted in the cabin with a 160m Screwdriver on the bow. Then I could wash lures and work some DX at the same time when was the last time someone yelled fish on on 20m LOL.


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

You _KNEW_ I'd poke in here at some point , now *DIDN'T YA* Ian???
:evilsmile

As I did actually run an Electronics shop for a while back in the day - and we did do more than enough installs to actually EXPERIMENT with things like cable lengths , antennae , heavier gauge DC (#8 - #16 Etc) wire and coaxial cables ( 58A/U vs. 8X vs. 8/U) as well as different transceivers I _can say_ this:
468/F still does equal a half wave of your desired frequency - and IF you cut the cable to half or full wave length increments the SWR and bandwidth curve WILL be lower and flatter than when just randomly hacked off.
TRIED & TRUE in an installation bay on LOTS of boats , this was conducted between 1977 and 1979.




*Nice touch with the Ringo Ranger suggestion , 1mainiac.
LOL!!*

RAS


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