# Thoughts on Irish Red Setters



## Cabin Fever (Dec 6, 2009)

I'm interested in hearing from anyone that has hunted over or owns/hunts a Irish Red Setter. I had an English Springer Spaniel that I hunted with for many years. She passed 3 years ago and I'm tired of the itch of longing for a new hunting partner and getting back in the woods. The only pointer I've hunted over was a Brittny Spaniel. I enjoyed the hunt over point and believe I want a dog that points now. I will be primarily hunting Pheasants (Illinois public sites and Bong in Wisconsin), grouse and woodcock in the UP and Wisconsin. I'm looking for a medium sized dog (~50lbs give or take a few) and one that doesn't require you to be on horseback to hunt. Having owned a springer, I know what to expect with keeping the fringes groomed after a hunt. I have no plans to trial. Since this will be a companion dog as well, I am taking my wifes view into consideration and we've thinking we want an an Irish Red Setter. For those of you that know Irish Red Setters, it would be great of you could share your thoughts and what breeders you have experience with. I searched the forum and saw that Brophy's had a positive vote. Thats good news as I am close to them and have already visited. Thanks!


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

There's some good ones out there. Just spend your time researching and I am sure a few fella's on here will chime in with some help for you. Good luck.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Cabin Fever said:


> I'm looking for a medium sized dog (~50lbs give or take a few) and one that doesn't require you to be on horseback to hunt. !


I hunted behind three pointers this weekend, one of which is a full on trial dog. We were on foot the whole time...


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


> I'm interested in hearing from anyone that has hunted over or owns/hunts a Irish Red Setter.


There is a red setter out there for everyone. Big running trial dogs that compete head to head with the best pointers and english setters all the way to foot hunting meat dogs. You need to be aware of this. It would be helpful to know exactly the ideal type of dog you are after and then I could point you towards the kennels breeding those types of dogs. 

Start looking here....
www.nrsftc.com

Red setters make great pheasant dogs....












WestCoastHunter said:


> I hunted behind three pointers this weekend, one of which is a full on trial dog. We were on foot the whole time...


Just a guess, but I'm thinking he doesn't really want to go from ESS to cover dog in one jump.....?


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## KWR (Oct 12, 2003)

I have 3 red setters and all are different one is a big running race horse but has a nose that will pick up scent very early. the second is interested in birds but she is very close working. the third is very calm and loves birds. He comes from a sire that places in both foot and horseback trials. He is also the litter mate to brads dog, from one of my breedings. All my dogs are pets and in the house a lot. But talk to people that own and breed them before you buy one there are many different styles out there.
Ken


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

I've hunted w/ 2 different red irish setters, both were awesome pheasant dogs!!! Why is you don't want another spaniel?


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

michgundog said:


> Why is you don't want another spaniel?


Why does someone want to go from a Camaro to a Ferrari? Just kidding. If I had room in my house/kennel I would love to have a nice flushing dog for pheasants and late season grouse.


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

Cabin Fever said:


> I'm interested in hearing from anyone that has hunted over or owns/hunts a Irish Red Setter. I had an English Springer Spaniel that I hunted with for many years. She passed 3 years ago and I'm tired of the itch of longing for a new hunting partner and getting back in the woods. The only pointer I've hunted over was a Brittny Spaniel. I enjoyed the hunt over point and believe I want a dog that points now. I will be primarily hunting Pheasants (Illinois public sites and Bong in Wisconsin), grouse and woodcock in the UP and Wisconsin. I'm looking for a medium sized dog (~50lbs give or take a few) and one that doesn't require you to be on horseback to hunt. Having owned a springer, I know what to expect with keeping the fringes groomed after a hunt. I have no plans to trial. Since this will be a companion dog as well, I am taking my wifes view into consideration and we've thinking we want an an Irish Red Setter. For those of you that know Irish Red Setters, it would be great of you could share your thoughts and what breeders you have experience with. I searched the forum and saw that Brophy's had a positive vote. Thats good news as I am close to them and have already visited. Thanks!


Throughout this post many respondents and the initiator have used two terms "Irish Red Setter" and "Red Setter." They're really not the same thing - well sort of - well maybe... but probaly not.....

This is my understanding of things.

Way back when Irish Setters were primarily bird dogs and either bred because of the sire's/dam's bird hunting abilities or not bred because of lack thereof.

To many people these Irish Setters were beautiful dogs to look at and they became very popular amongst those breeders who were much more interested in conformation and the show ring as opposed to those more interested in field performance.

By the 1920s or so the overwhelming emphasis on breeding Irish Setters was being done for show and the field performance of Irish Setters (sire, dam, whelp etc.) - as a breed - began to greatly decline. 

By the 1930s many field trialers/well to-do bird hunters etc. who cherished the Irish Setter as a field dog became greatly alarmed over the rapid decline in the field abilities of their cherished breed. Again as I understand it - in an effort to restore Irish Setters as bird/field trial dogs they went to the American Field and proposed *openly* crossing Irish Setters with English Setters and to one degree or another culling/neutering those offspring that either didn't "look" like Irish Setters or didn't have much in the way of bird finding abilities. The offspring of this American Field sanctioned breeding were called "Red Setters" so as to differentiate them from AKC-show Irish Setters. To my knowledge all of this "Red Setter" cross-breeding was done openly, with full knowledge of the American Field registry.

One of the early proponents of this cross breeding was one Howard Lytle who hunted quail throughout many southern states with a then field bred Irish Setter who he named Smyda-Bird (?). To the best of my knowledge he was some sort of ad agency mogul out of central Ohio. He wrote a number of books about his bird hunting adventures - both after quail in various southern states and the occasional hunt for woodcock in Ohio and grouse in Michigan. His true love, however, was traditional quail hunting in the south over setters - be they English or Irish. His bird hunting adventures and writing took place - as I recall - in the early to mid- 1930s. He was also for many years the "dog" editor of one of the "big three" - again as I remember _Outdoor Life_.

I guess the point I am trying to make here is that an "Irish Setter" is from a bird hunter/field trialer's perspective not the same dog as a "Red Setter" and the term "Irish Red Setter" just adds to the confusion. 

I am only trying to provide a broad overview to all of this and if I'm wrong in some of the details I apologize. To all of you who love setters - be they Red or English - I heartily recommend Lytle's books. I'm sure they've been out of print for decades but may still be available for purchase from such outfits as Michigan's Gunnerman Books or through inter-library loan. At one point in my "career" I had access to all ( five or six) of Lytle's books and would read all of them over and over and over again. Lytle provides his readers with a lively, entertaining but nonetheless thought provoking view of "classic" quail hunting over "classic quail dogs" in the remnants of the "Old South." Highly recommended.

Hoppe's no.10


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Hoppe's no.10 thanks for the info, very interesting...Do you of any breeders of field bred Irish Setters in MI?


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Hoppe's no.10 said:


> Throughout this post many respondents and the initiator have used two terms "Irish Red Setter" and "Red Setter." They're really not the same thing - well sort of - well maybe... but probaly not.....
> 
> This is my understanding of things.
> 
> Hoppe's no.10


You've got the heart of it....
The crossing with english setters happened in the 1950s due in part to an article by Lytle in Sports Afield. The challenge to turn the breed around was lead by Ned LeGrande of PA. Long story short, they were able to cross breed to english setters and then after 3 generations of breeding to Irish setters they could be registred as pure Irish.

Read all about it here....
http://www.nrsftc.com/history.htm

Typically....
Irish Setter = show bred, pet, AKC 
Red Setter = FDSB, smaller, field trialing 
Irish Red and White Setter = totally separate breed

Someone might say "Irish Red Setter" when what they typically are referring to is a field bred Irish Setter. Red setters are registered as "Irish Setters" by the Field. All the "Red" does is help in conversation by emphasizing the hunting and performance based standard of the dogs being conversed about.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

michgundog said:


> Hoppe's no.10 thanks for the info, very interesting...Do you of any breeders of field bred Irish Setters in MI?


http://www.nrsftc.com/breeders.htm

Ken Rood, KWR on the site, has had litters in the past...

I am not aware of any large scale Red Setter Kennels in MI.


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

BradU20 said:


> You've got the heart of it....
> The crossing with english setters happened in the 1950s due in part to an article by Lytle in Sports Afield. The challenge to turn the breed around was lead by Ned LeGrande of PA. Long story short, they were able to cross breed to english setters and then after 3 generations of breeding to Irish setters they could be registred as pure Irish.
> 
> Read all about it here....
> ...


Thanks for your clarification. Not a setter _aficionado_ but I thoroughly enjoy reading and discussing these sorts of things especially if there's a historical perspective to it.

Hoppe's no.10


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

BradU20 said:


> You've got the heart of it....
> The crossing with english setters happened in the 1950s due in part to an article by Lytle in Sports Afield. The challenge to turn the breed around was lead by Ned LeGrande of PA. Long story short, they were able to cross breed to english setters and then after 3 generations of breeding to Irish setters they could be registred as pure Irish.
> 
> Read all about it here....
> ...


Actually the Irish Red and White Setter _is_ an Irish Setter. They represent the original breed and were fairly common until the show folks essentially bred that coloration out of them in the U.S., not to mention causing the aforementioned faults mentioned in previous posts, as I understand it. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding)

Point being, if you want the "original" breed, get the red and white, the Irish have maintained what originally existed and that's not what the show folks here created.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Actually the Irish Red and White Setter _is_ an Irish Setter.


If you are trying to say that Irish Setters were originally colored red and white, you are correct. Most of the field bred Irish setters here and across the pond have white on them.

They are not the same breed...according to the AKC and their performance in the field. The IRWS has changed over the years just like all the other breeds. They have a very limited gene pool. To claim that todays IRWS is equivalent to an 1700s era Irish Setter just isn't accurate.


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## Ohio_92 (Aug 24, 2009)

How about a Large Munsterlander, a few of them somewhat look like a springer...www.lmcna.org


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

BradU20 said:


> To claim that todays IRWS is equivalent to an 1700s era Irish Setter just isn't accurate.


Nor is the Red Setter. But the Red and White didn't need to be crossed with English Setters as far as I know to bring them back up to hunting standards. They're lineage is arguably a closer link to the original dogs.

The AKC has it's own ideas on what a Pointer and English Setter is as well, I don't agree with that either.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> The AKC has it's own ideas on what a Pointer and English Setter is as well, I don't agree with that either.


Just so there is no confusion, the AKC does not set breed standards, they are a registry. The AKC rely's on the parent breed club to set the standard. 
So if you have a problem with the English Pointer for example, you need to lobby the English Pointer club of America to get the standard changed. Not the AKC.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Lucky Dog said:


> Just so there is no confusion, the AKC does not set breed standards, they are a registry. The AKC rely's on the parent breed club to set the standard.
> So if you have a problem with the English Pointer for example, you need to lobby the English Pointer club of America to get the standard changed. Not the AKC.


I understand that. But I also understand that most folks here don't think a 75 lbs moose with a sloped rear end and close range is a good example of a huntable English Pointer. I've hunted over both AKC Pointers and non-AKC Pointers, the difference is quite substantial. Along those same lines, I STRONGLY doubt that people across the pond who trial their Irish Setters (Red or Red and White) want their dogs in any way associated with the AKC.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I understand that. But I also understand that most folks here don't think a 75 lbs moose with a sloped rear end and close range is a good example of a huntable English Pointer. I've hunted over both AKC Pointers and non-AKC Pointers, the difference is quite substantial. Along those same lines, I STRONGLY doubt that people across the pond who trial their Irish Setters (Red or Red and White) want their dogs in any way associated with the AKC.


My post was not intended to argue what you might think is right or wrong with breeds but to point out that it is not the AKC's fault for those differences.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Lucky Dog said:


> My post was not intended to argue what you might think is right or wrong with breeds but to point out that it is not the AKC's fault for those differences.


Might be so, but as far as I can tell the AKC and said breed clubs are more about pushing bench dogs than useful hunting dogs. 

Regardless, if you look at the AKC standard for an Irish Setter of the red variety, it is far different than that of the "Red Setter" in the hunting world. Hence, I don't think the reference to Red and White Setters in the AKC world is particularly fair.


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