# Pointer vs. PL comp @ Crosswind thread



## WestCoastHunter

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> wch- you can tell the difference between pointing and standing


Agreed


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## Socks

I agree backing would be an issue for me. I have one dog and train alone about 90% of the time and I have no idea if JD will back. Heck, he'll probably go and point the same bird or continue on and find another one.  Not that it looks like I'll be able to make it, but I think backing will be hard for most PL people. It's not something the APLA tests for and those of us like me don't really have the training oppurtunities for it. Just sayin'


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## Paco

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> If you go with backing you ll be down to only a few pl's.
> As for me in that time frame it should work but I am a retriever trainer too and that is my summertime focus and every dog I like for this is going to be under my thumb so I ll have to hope I can get them loose with out jeopardizing the fall goals I have already established which will remain my goals despite running this.
> I can easily get 10 or more dogs, mine, others and clients.
> 
> wch- you can tell the difference between pointing and standing
> 
> *Frank- send Rondo*


 
*Got you covered*, how about G and Smoke too . I am taking on dogs after the quiet season and the Hex is past, will need kennel space for them, I'll give you a shout in a bit.
Some pups on the way too, so may need you to run at least Rondo and am serious about Gator too (no speed but some talent). That is trust buddy (and a first) !
Much more important to make some money than run in this, but we'll see what shakes out.


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS

kellyM87 said:


> Men, lol. Its all about who's has better this, who has bigger that. Always so competetive. Doesn't it lose its fun if your always worrying about if your better?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don t think this is competetive for me-I respect Pointers and still will afterwards, I respect Loveday and Townsend and learned a lot thru simply drinking beer with Kenny, and chatting with Scott a few times, Crosswind is basically in my backyard so it be hard not to know some of the same people. I know these dogs although not coverdogs(lol) will be tough to beat (maybe not even possible especially if we are judging style and on their home field) so I have no expectations unless they want to add a retriever trial into it . My hope is it to build a better relationship with these guys. I have no ill feelings towards anyone, am not ignorant to the facts and realize its a long shot but Ritter did come to ours so I ll come to there's and then listen to some stories while I drink afew beers.That and the Jug is just down the street.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug

WestCoastHunter said:


> General curiosity
> 
> Tell me, the first time you put a bird in front of that Pointer in your avatar, did you have to say "whoa" to get the dog to point it and stay stuck that way for more than 10 minutes? My bet is no.
> 
> You guys can compare ball sizes in training all you want and I think that has merit. But the argument is over whether these labs really point or if they're trained to. The competition is a good idea, but I'm not sure it settles the argument for you all.


I view this from my phone can't see avatars. Who has a pointer as there avatar? And did it come from the shelter. Because all the great ones come from the pound. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stndpenguin

I dont think any of the lab guys are expecting to come down and smoke any pointer. Ive yet to see any pointing lab owner say that their dog can point better than a pointer. I think its more of wanting a little bit of respect toward the dogs they love from people that do nothing but bash them anytime the topic is brought up. 
Its a shame it has to come down to a d**k measuring contest but in the end maybe it'll get rid of some of the crap we see on the forums and bring people a little closer together because in the end they're exactly the same, boys with dogs that hunt.

Somebody record some video footage, ill pay =D


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## Firemedic

junebug said:


> I view this from my phone can't see avatars. Who has a pointer as there avatar? And did it come from the shelter. Because all the great ones come from the pound. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Hey prick, it's my dog. Actually, I would consider her a rescue dog.:lol:

And you know damn well she has a 12 o' clock tail. lol.


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## junebug

Firemedic said:


> Hey prick, it's my dog. Actually, I would consider her a rescue dog.:lol:
> 
> And you know damn well she has a 12 o' clock tail. lol.


A rescue, then she has to be GREAT! Lol!!!!!! Short d*ck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GSPJAKE

I'm in if you take away retrieve to hand:lol:


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## Black Angus

I would love to see this. I think we should add a simple 100 yard blind retrieve. Kinda evens the field since it was stated that pl's are trained to point and pointers are trained to retrieve.


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## stndpenguin

Don't scare 'em away 

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## k9wernet

Black Angus said:


> I would love to see this. I think we should add a simple 100 yard blind retrieve. Kinda evens the field since it was stated that pl's are trained to point and pointers are trained to retrieve.


Where does that put a GSP? Seems like they'd own the field.

KW


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## Socks

Black Angus said:


> I would love to see this. I think we should add a simple 100 yard blind retrieve. Kinda evens the field since it was stated that pl's are trained to point and pointers are trained to retrieve.


Pot stirrer!!!


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## Socks

k9wernet said:


> Where does that put a GSP? Seems like they'd own the field.
> 
> KW


For that to happen wouldn't you have to first go through the field and make sure there's no porkies or skunks around? Just kidding!


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## Rugergundog

Heck i would come mearly to get my dogs out moving and to see some good dog work.

On a side note, now correct me if im wrong because i have only limited knowledge on pointing labs...really any lab for that matter. 

In reading a post Scott added he mentioned scoring based just on time and number of birds pointed.

Would this not be a distinct disadvantage to the PL...as aren't they a closer working dog by nature? Just asking because I don't know.

I know i have read some threads on here that some argue a fast running dog can out run its nose....and i suppose that is true. However ive seen some damn fast dogs stop on a thumb tac on a wiff of scent. 

Given if PL's indeed do work closer...wouldn't this not prove to be too productive vs a high speed wide ranging pointer with a good nose?


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## Firemedic

Rugergundog said:


> In reading a post Scott added he mentioned scoring based just on time and number of birds pointed.


 
That does bring a good point. How about running singles then, and the two top scores are braced together?


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## Rugergundog

........and when its all said and done. The dogs get to sit back and see what owner/trainer/handler/shooter can chug a 40oz warm bottle of PBR and lap the field without bringing up one of Firemed's pulled porky sandwiches. All on film of course


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## thelastlemming

I was thinking the same thing pen raised quail dropped in a small field, and only 20 minute runs seems to set up ideally for a pl. Again not saying that they don't serve a need for some hunters or that they aren't good dogs, but I think what most pointer and setter people have said and I believe to be true is that can't compete in the grouse woods, or a cover dog trial, even if lack of stile were not an issue. I don't doubt that they can be great all around dogs or that they couldn't find a few planted quail. Especially when steady to fall or even backing are non-requirements and its only a 20 minute run across some fields.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kwas

Birds should be some good running pheasants, nock out quiet a few non productive points by dogs used to pen birds


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## Firemedic

Chukar will work better. It's not good to put pen raised peasants in CRP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deezel

Call it the Crosswind Pointing Dog Showcase!

Honestly, I'm looking forward to it providing a opportunity for 2 groups to come together and form a relationship from which each group will have an invaluable opportunity to learn from the other, both that day and in the future. 

Unfortunately, I won't be able to attend the whole event. I have a wedding to attend so likely can only come and watch/meet people for a few hours (if we start in the morning)

my rule input....
Designated gunner
Hold point until handler/gunner flushes
Delivery to hand
Simple 100 yrd blind 
Honoring
Steady to wing or shot?

Wish I had a dog ready for this sorta thing!

I'll be following all this closely


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## Firemedic

deezel said:


> my rule input....
> Designated gunner
> Hold point until handler/gunner flushes
> Delivery to hand
> Simple 100 yrd blind
> Honoring
> Steady to wing or shot?
> 
> Wish I had a dog ready for this sorta thing!
> 
> I'll be following all this closely


No way do I want a designated gunner. Why would you not want to shoot your own birds? If there is a miss, only have yourself to blame.

As far as a blind retrieve, this is not an HRC event. No one ever claimed their pointer could run through a retriever test.


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## kellyM87

Do no style is involved? My llew was force broke, but doesn't have much in the style dept. My male has a beautiful point but was not force broke. What about a novice stake, no retrieving so more people can come?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Firemedic

Style is not gonna count in this one, bring the force broke dog. 

Heck, I'm not even to the novice class yet, I'm still an amateur! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS

Firemedic said:


> No way do I want a designated gunner. Why would you not want to shoot your own birds? If there is a miss, only have yourself to blame.
> 
> As far as a blind retrieve, this is not an HRC event. No one ever claimed their pointer could run through a retriever test.


 just remember I am not the one who said a lab could run NSTRA.


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## deezel

Firemedic said:


> No way do I want a designated gunner. Why would you not want to shoot your own birds? If there is a miss, only have yourself to blame.
> 
> As far as a blind retrieve, this is not an HRC event. No one ever claimed their pointer could run through a retriever test.


takes that variable out of the equation just a thought....

no one ever claimed PL's could run all over other pointing breeds in the field but they are going to come and play on that turf....
a simple straight 100 yrd blind is FAR from a "retriever test"....


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## Firemedic

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> just remember I am not the one who said a lab could run NSTRA.


Understood, but that is why we aren't following that format either. Think of it more as a gun dog challenge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS

1. Firemedic EP/F
2. Firemedic GSP/M
3. Dale and Rooster-Lab
4. Dale and Rondo-Lab
5. Dale and Jesse- Lab
6. Dale and Sheba-Lab
7. Dale and ZZ-Lab
8. Dale and Scarlett-Lab
9. Dale and Kenai-Lab
10. Frank/Dale and Smoke-Lab
11. Frank/Dale and Gator-Lab
12. Mark and Duke-Lab
13. Eric and Jax_lab
14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Pointer vs. PL comp @ Crosswind thread - Page 4 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384034&page=4#ixzz1Qa9xLEfj​


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## Firemedic

Dale, clean out your PM box.


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS

Any one wants to talk text or call 7347778223
I m in the field
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deezel

he meant *734*-777-8223


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## junebug

crosswind said:


> Since nobody else has thrown out any rules how about these.
> 
> 1.Birds will be scored as 2 pts for each find that is pointed and held to be flushed by the handler.
> ( A bird that wild flushes after it is pointed WILL count as a find)
> 
> 2. Birds that are retrieved to within 3ft (one step) of the handler will be scored 2 pts.
> 
> 3. The most points at the end of 30 mins wins the brace.
> 
> 4. All points for both sides Labs and pointers go on the chart and get totaled at the end of the day, to determine overall points for both the Labs and the pointers.
> 
> 5. Dogs will be run in pairs, one PL and one Pointer. No backing required. If a dog interferes with another dog while on point, the pointing dog will be credited with both the find and the retrieve.
> 
> The birds will be chukers and they will be good flyers. No shooting my pheasants. Bring a dish to pass for lunch and whatever you drink for after the event. No drinking during the event.
> 
> I will volunteer to plant the birds.
> 
> We can use as little as twenty or as much as 40 acres you guys call it.
> 
> Any other suggestions throw them out here.


Sounds good to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kellyM87

1. Firemedic EP/F
2. Firemedic GSP/M
3. Dale and Rooster-Lab
4. Dale and Rondo-Lab
5. Dale and Jesse- Lab
6. Dale and Sheba-Lab
7. Dale and ZZ-Lab
8. Dale and Scarlett-Lab
9. Dale and Kenai-Lab
10. Frank/Dale and Smoke-Lab
11. Frank/Dale and Gator-Lab
12. Mark and Duke-Lab
13. Eric and Jax_lab
14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
15. Kelly and Sage- ESF (may scratch)
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.


Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Pointer vs. PL comp @ Crosswind thread - Page 5 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384034&page=5#ixzz1QaxJaSz3

Im in. I am going for fun though, hopefully it is not too competitive because my Llew is going to make me look like an idiot lol. Did anyone say how much the cost is to enter?


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## junebug

deezel said:


> takes that variable out of the equation just a thought....
> 
> no one ever claimed PL's could run all over other pointing breeds in the field but they are going to come and play on that turf....
> a simple straight 100 yrd blind is FAR from a "retriever test"....


Nobody ever said they are not great retrievers. We all know that they can do that. That's why they call them Labador Retrievers. Not Labador pointers. They are a great breed of retriever, not pointer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug

deezel said:


> Call it the Crosswind Pointing Dog Showcase!
> 
> Honestly, I'm looking forward to it providing a opportunity for 2 groups to come together and form a relationship from which each group will have an invaluable opportunity to learn from the other, both that day and in the future.
> 
> Unfortunately, I won't be able to attend the whole event. I have a wedding to attend so likely can only come and watch/meet people for a few hours (if we start in the morning)
> 
> my rule input....
> Designated gunner
> Hold point until handler/gunner flushes
> Delivery to hand
> Simple 100 yrd blind
> Honoring
> Steady to wing or shot?
> 
> Wish I had a dog ready for this sorta thing!
> 
> I'll be following all this closely


Hope the wedding is nopt yours. Lol!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

Firemedic said:


> No way do I want a designated gunner. Why would you not want to shoot your own birds? If there is a miss, only have yourself to blame.
> 
> As far as a blind retrieve, this is not an HRC event. No one ever claimed their pointer could run through a retriever test.


 
I think a simple single 100 yard timed Mark makes sense though.


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## junebug

CLASSIC POINTE said:


> Hey this is pretty simple stuff......... are you in or out - if you want to run and have a good time your in ....... if you want to only bump your gums one is to assume your out. Hey firemedic why don't you start a sign up sheet and get this thing going - if you need i can cook the lunch heard you burn stuff:lol:
> 
> Put me in for a Lab, Setter, GSP and a beagle.(beagle has pointed)


I'm bring a setter and Jenny's house cat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deezel

junebug said:


> Hope the wedding is nopt yours. Lol!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Donny, I'll be sure to inform my wife of your concern!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf_Dancer34

This thread has been amusing to say the least....the cards are now on the table boys so you know what that means.......hhhmmmmmmm


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## lking

I settled this debate years ago amongst myself. Have both. I own a PL from Schwar Point Versatile Labs in Iowa as well as an EP from Bruce Minard at HiFive. End. Apples to oranges and love em both for what they can do.


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## remmi870

1. Firemedic EP/F
2. Firemedic GSP/M
3. Dale and Rooster-Lab
4. Dale and Rondo-Lab
5. Dale and Jesse- Lab
6. Dale and Sheba-Lab
7. Dale and ZZ-Lab
8. Dale and Scarlett-Lab
9. Dale and Kenai-Lab
10. Frank/Dale and Smoke-Lab
11. Frank/Dale and Gator-Lab
12. Mark and Duke-Lab
13. Eric and Jax_lab
14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
15. Kelly and Sage- ESF (may scratch)
16.Matt and Winnie- Lab
17.
18.
19.
20.


Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Pointer vs. PL comp @ Crosswind thread - Page 5 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384034&page=5#ixzz1Qbl7Eo8m


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## kellyM87

Anyone know the cost?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Firemedic

We will leave that up to Crosswind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## duke7581

i will def try and come watch, look forward to meeting new dog people. Im getting a dog that suppose to point in Jan if i dont screw him up with all my ret. stuff. lol


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## k9wernet

Anybody know whether that's the same weekend as the MAFTC Summer Trial (Hunting Dog Classic) at Gladwin?

If not, I'm tempted to do it with my GSP mutt -- just for giggles.

On the rules issue, I'd like to see the dog steady to flush and have the handler do the flushing. Maybe you lose 1 of the 2 points for a bump or wild flush.

As a tradeoff, you get two points for retrieve to hand. 1 point for the retrieve within 3 feet.

Show me a pointer that has trained on blind retrieves. Leave that one for your duck dog competitions.

KW


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## Lloydboy

Can't copy and paste from my phone but count me in for two... 
David Lloyd - #17 - Abe / Pt Lab & #18 - Becca / Pt Lab


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## Rugergundog

Not sure if this comparison is "pointer" as in short for English Pointer or just pointing breed vs the pointing lab.

Having not owned a EP specifically i can't attest to the breeds inherited retrieve and such. But owning two other pointing breeds and having been around a good deal of NAVHDA that places a fair degree of spotlight on the retrieve i would say that many "pointing" breeds or versatile breeds would have no problem being evaluated on some basic to medium retriever stuff........that is having the owner/handler/trainer has exposed them to it.


In any event; not sure what caliber of dogs you guys are looking to stack up but i enter my GSP and Brit for sakes of being a participant. On any given day either can be a stellar top notch virtually finished dog........or a complete clown in the field, ahahah.


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## Paco

I believe there was a smiley with the blind retrieve comment, think it was meant as lighthearted humor. No need for adding them. If for some reason the dog did not see the fall, if you can do them, I say go for it.


Retrieve to hand gets an extra point sounds good.


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## kwas

junebug said:


> I'm bring a setter and Jenny's house cat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dont think anyone wants to meet Jenn's cat, your new girlfriend.


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## FindTheBird

k9wernet said:


> Anybody know whether that's the same weekend as the MAFTC Summer Trial (Hunting Dog Classic) at Gladwin?


August 20-21 for the Hunting Dog Classic...


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## CLASSIC POINTE

1. Firemedic EP/F
2. Firemedic GSP/M
3. Dale and Rooster-Lab
4. Dale and Rondo-Lab
5. Dale and Jesse- Lab
6. Dale and Sheba-Lab
7. Dale and ZZ-Lab
8. Dale and Scarlett-Lab
9. Dale and Kenai-Lab
10. Frank/Dale and Smoke-Lab
11. Frank/Dale and Gator-Lab
12. Mark and Duke-Lab
13. Eric and Jax_lab
14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
15. Kelly and Sage- ESF (may scratch)
16.Matt and Winnie- Lab
17.Scooby-ES
18.Jester-GSP
19.Gretchen-GSP
20.



Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Pointer vs. PL comp @ Crosswind thread - Page 6 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384034&page=6#ixzz1QfDXTNB7


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## Biggbear

Earlier Kelly asked why everything was a competition, and hit the nail on the head. I've noticed deer hunting, and turkey hunting has turned into a competition on other forums. The one thinng I really liked about reading the posts in this one was that while there may be some disagreements, everything didn't seem to be an us versus them mentality on here.

If this was just a fun day to meet others and see some fine dog work, that would be great. But for it to be a PL vs. Pointers day is just sad. This whole "put up or shut up" challenge to PL owners is even sadder.

For the record I have a PL. Would Koda ever come out ahead of a pointer or setter in their element, nope. Heck, I don't even know if he could come out ahead of other PL's, and furthermore I don't really care. But here's the thing, he's mine. For all his faults and occasional moments of greatness, he's mine. And while he may not be perfect, I'm ok with that.

It's unfortunate that this wasn't billed as just a day for anyone of any breed to bring their dogs and show them off, and for those that attend I hope that's what it turns into.

And for the pointer owners that seem so insecure that another breed may possibly be as good an upland hunter as theirs, let it go. And I hope that the PL owners on here will stop being so insecure that their dogs may not measure up to a Pointer or Setter in the Uplands. I don't know why so many PL owners have a need to "prove" anything to anyone.

Good luck to everyone who attends, regardless of the breed they bring. And once this event is over, I sincerely hope this forum can let this subject die down a bit. I have learned a tremendous amount about training and dog work by reading this forum, lately there hasn't been much of that. Hopefully after this event, the rhetoric will die off, and we can get back to helping each other out.


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## Scott Berg

I think it's great you guys/gals are getting together. Dog competitions are great social events and anyone who has been to a few will attest most of the competitors become friends, train together, etc. It should be fun and the exposure always helps us understand the other side of the coin a little better. Now you just need a few more "traditional" pointing breed guys to show up and even out the numbers.


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## kek25

Biggbear said:


> . . .If this was just a fun day to meet others and see some fine dog work, that would be great. But for it to be a PL vs. Pointers day is just sad. This whole "put up or shut up" challenge to PL owners is even sadder. . .


Don't doom this event before it's been held. I can't imagine a bunch of dogs and dog people getting together to work birds won't be a fun day to meet others and see some fine dog work. If you've ever been to Crosswind kennels when Scott has people over with their dogs (which is quite often) you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the event as just a competition. 

By the way, competition and civility can go hand in hand. Happens every weekend during the trialing seasons of the various venues.


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## crosswind

Biggbear said:


> Earlier Kelly asked why everything was a competition, and hit the nail on the head. I've noticed deer hunting, and turkey hunting has turned into a competition on other forums. The one thinng I really liked about reading the posts in this one was that while there may be some disagreements, everything didn't seem to be an us versus them mentality on here.
> 
> If this was just a fun day to meet others and see some fine dog work, that would be great. But for it to be a PL vs. Pointers day is just sad. This whole "put up or shut up" challenge to PL owners is even sadder.
> 
> For the record I have a PL. Would Koda ever come out ahead of a pointer or setter in their element, nope. Heck, I don't even know if he could come out ahead of other PL's, and furthermore I don't really care. But here's the thing, he's mine. For all his faults and occasional moments of greatness, he's mine. And while he may not be perfect, I'm ok with that.
> 
> It's unfortunate that this wasn't billed as just a day for anyone of any breed to bring their dogs and show them off, and for those that attend I hope that's what it turns into.
> 
> And for the pointer owners that seem so insecure that another breed may possibly be as good an upland hunter as theirs, let it go. And I hope that the PL owners on here will stop being so insecure that their dogs may not measure up to a Pointer or Setter in the Uplands. I don't know why so many PL owners have a need to "prove" anything to anyone.
> 
> Good luck to everyone who attends, regardless of the breed they bring. And once this event is over, I sincerely hope this forum can let this subject die down a bit. I have learned a tremendous amount about training and dog work by reading this forum, lately there hasn't been much of that. Hopefully after this event, the rhetoric will die off, and we can get back to helping each other out.


 Bear, since the beginning of time mankind has competed in one thing or another. To many people it is not so much as seeing or deciding who or what is better, as much as it simple just the thrill of competing.
Hey at the end of that day there is no doubt in my mind that something will be learned by everyone. I don't know the first thing about labs or pointing labs. It will be interesting for me just seeing them do their thing. It will give me a guage of what they are capable of doing as an upland bird dog. 
I have trialed and competed dogs from one end of the country to the other. I have yet to get around a bunch of bird dog folks that share the same passions, and not have a good time. I will guarantee you that friends will be made and knowledge will be gained due to the day of competing.
Who really cares if at the end of the day it is a dead tie, or one side wipes the other out, or any other variation. The folks signing up can give you several reasons for wanting to do it, but I would bet the main single reason is just the thrill of competing.


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## crosswind

For the folks entering we will make every attempt to get some good flying chukars. The entry fees will be posted. Im not looking to make a dime. But we have to cover the expense of the birds, probably should pay the two judges that are going to work all day, and also cover the fuel the ATV's will use. Probably around 30 bucks a run give or take 5 bucks either way.
There will be a waiver to sign concerning liability issues since this is not sanctioned by any venue.


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## Biggbear

crosswind said:


> Bear, since the beginning of time mankind has competed in one thing or another. To many people it is not so much as seeing or deciding who or what is better, as much as it simple just the thrill of competing.
> Hey at the end of that day there is no doubt in my mind that something will be learned by everyone. I don't know the first thing about labs or pointing labs. It will be interesting for me just seeing them do their thing. It will give me a guage of what they are capable of doing as an upland bird dog.
> I have trialed and competed dogs from one end of the country to the other. I have yet to get around a bunch of bird dog folks that share the same passions, and not have a good time. I will guarantee you that friends will be made and knowledge will be gained due to the day of competing.
> Who really cares if at the end of the day it is a dead tie, or one side wipes the other out, or any other variation. The folks signing up can give you several reasons for wanting to do it, but I would bet the main single reason is just the thrill of competing.


Crosswind- I would very much like to attend, I know absolutely nothing about trials or tests but would like to learn, but Koda is no where near ready for any event. Would it be possible to attend without a dog? I would be glad to do the dish to pass, and even kick in to help pay for the days expenses.

I'm sure there will be some great dog work, and an opportunity to learn something and meet others who share the same passions is not something to be missed. Please let me know if it would be okay to attend without an entry.


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## Firemedic

Biggbear said:


> Crosswind- I would very much like to attend, I know absolutely nothing about trials or tests but would like to learn, but Koda is no where near ready for any event. Would it be possible to attend without a dog? I would be glad to do the dish to pass, and even kick in to help pay for the days expenses.
> 
> I'm sure there will be some great dog work, and an opportunity to learn something and meet others who share the same passions is not something to be missed. Please let me know if it would be okay to attend without an entry.


Hey, this is my trial!!!! Hahaha. Hell yes you can come down. The more the better. Don't worry about bringing a dish to pass, a bottle of Crown will always get ya further down there. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GSP Gal

1. Firemedic EP/F
2. Firemedic GSP/M
3. Dale and Rooster-Lab
4. Dale and Rondo-Lab
5. Dale and Jesse- Lab
6. Dale and Sheba-Lab
7. Dale and ZZ-Lab
8. Dale and Scarlett-Lab
9. Dale and Kenai-Lab
10. Frank/Dale and Smoke-Lab
11. Frank/Dale and Gator-Lab
12. Mark and Duke-Lab
13. Eric and Jax_lab
14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
15. Kelly and Sage- ESF (may scratch)
16.Matt and Winnie- Lab
17.Scooby-ES
18.Jester-GSP
19.Gretchen-GSP
20.Schatzie-GSP



Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Pointer vs. PL comp @ Crosswind thread - Page 7 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384034&page=7#ixzz1Qflz895n


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## GSP Gal

We could always use some practice....


----------



## stndpenguin

crosswind said:


> Yeah right.lol. I don't need to run in the trial I just want to run against WCH.
> Can I be on the PL's guys side. Can someone lone me a lab for 30 minutes.:lol::lol::lol:
> 
> P.S. I don't even care if the loner has three legs and is blind in one eye. It will beat his dogs on style. I have seen his on point.


you can borrow mine, zero training... can find frisbees like nobodys business tho


----------



## junebug

Firemedic said:


> Mike Kibby is taking spot 29, and 30 will be reserved for Townsend. We need two more pointers. Come on WCH, bring one out!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOT
> 
> How about loveday?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Firemedic

junebug said:


> Firemedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike Kibby is taking spot 29, and 30 will be reserved for Townsend. We need two more pointers. Come on WCH, bring one out!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOT
> 
> How about loveday?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> He was informed last night he will be judging.
Click to expand...


----------



## junebug

junebug said:


> Firemedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike Kibby is taking spot 29, and 30 will be reserved for Townsend. We need two more pointers. Come on WCH, bring one out!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOT
> 
> How about loveday?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Or Ritter?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Worm Dunker

If theres going to be 20 min. brace count me in. I maybe able to walk that long. One setter male.


----------



## Firemedic

junebug said:


> junebug said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or Ritter?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Ritter said he will be kayaking or something up north.
> 
> 
> 
> Worm Dunker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If theres going to be 20 min. brace count me in. I maybe able to walk that long. One setter male.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sounds good Terry.
Click to expand...


----------



## Firemedic

1. Firemedic EP/F
2. Firemedic GSP/M
3. Dale Rooster-Lab
4. Dale Rondo-Lab
5. Dale Jesse- Lab
6. Dale Sheba-Lab
7. Dale ZZ-Lab
8. Dale Scarlett-Lab
9. Dale Kenai-Lab
10. Frank/Dale Smoke-Lab
11. Frank/Dale Gator-Lab
12. Mark Duke-Lab
13. Eric Jax-lab
14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
15. Kelly Sage ESF (may scratch)
16.Matt Winnie- Lab
17.John Scooby-ES
18.John Jester-GSP/m
19.John Gretchen (snatchface)-GSP/f
20.Schatzie-GSP/f
21. RugerGD GSP/m
22. RugerGD Britt/m
23. Junebug ES/m
24. Junebug ES/m
25.David Lloyd lab
26.david loyd lab
27. Dale Rosco lab
28. Dale JD
29.Kibby Ranger/Apollo gsp/m
30.Townsend/ 
31. Kibby gsp/m
32. Terry ES/m
33. 
34.

I'd also like to have a stand by list created, in case someone backs out.


----------



## Rugergundog

Wow, lots of interest! Way cool. 

Scott, you could sift a little off the top of this and prob make a little donation to something dog related.

.......this event will be support by Firemed's bbq correct


----------



## Firemedic

Rugergundog said:


> Wow, lots of interest! Way cool.
> 
> Scott, you could sift a little off the top of this and prob make a little donation to something dog related.
> 
> He said he was only gonna charge for the birds, and pay the judges. That way we can keep the cost down.
> 
> .......this event will be support by Firemed's bbq correct


Yes, I will do the BBQ again that weekend. I'd like to throw some brisket on the smoker too, but you know how poor firemen are, I would like maybe a $5 lunch donation. That probably wouldn't even cover the cost of the meat, but it's a start.


----------



## kek25

Ryan:

Put me down on the standby list. I was coming out to observe and wasn't planning to bring a dog. But if a spot opens up and needs filled I'll run a dog. Setter male.


----------



## junebug

Just think, my smartass remarks being put to go use. I fill a tear coming on for making all this possible. Lol!!!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## junebug

Rugergundog said:


> Wow, lots of interest! Way cool.
> 
> Scott, you could sift a little off the top of this and prob make a little donation to something dog related.
> 
> .......this event will be support by Firemed's bbq correct


Yea Scott, like maybe WCH's preferred breeder. I think it is the Michigan Humane Society. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scott Berg

It is really cool that you guys can get 30+ dogs together for this event.
Have fun:coolgleam

SRB


----------



## kek25

Having someone as generous as Scott Townsend open up his place to a bunch of unbalanced dog folks makes it easy.


----------



## deezel

junebug said:


> Just think, my smartass remarks being put to go use. I fill a tear coming on for making all this possible. Lol!!!!!!!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just what we needed.. You believing anymore than you already did that your continued smartass and demeaning comments are of any real benefit to this forum!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS

Ok so we got dogs and we have a date. My guess is we need 2 judges, 2 planters, and a format regarding bird sets and what not. Dogs are allowed to wear a flat collar from what i understand. designated gunners for those that may be handicapped? (this is suppose to be a dog competition not about shooting skills). If allowed DG should not be allowed to assist handler in any way. 
All the NSTRA basic language regarding out of bounds,missed birds reworking birds. safeties going to be used?
Knowing Loveday will only do this if he is riding an ATV the PL dogs need to be prepared.


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## Firemedic

2 judges, yes. 1 bird planter. You can have a DG if you wish, but may not communicate with them. All boundaries will be well marked. Scored on birds will be marked. But they will probably fly out of bounds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bwright27

My first post on this forum. I would like to repond to a few of the questions that were asked in this thread.

First, why a competition? We pointing lab owners are barred from almost all pointing events so those of us with quality dogs welcome any chance to test our dogs against others. Only by competing against really good pointing dogs will we be able to evaluate the progress that we have made with our own breed. We also feel that we need as many people that run in sanctioned pointing events to see our dogs perform as possible. Hopefully some of these folks will be convinced that our dogs should be allowed to perform in other pointing venues and will be advocates for us in the future.

Secondly, we PL owners fight a non-stop battle against ignorance. I don't say this in a mean way. We just like opportunities to educate the dog training public. Many people (like a few from early in this thread) come with built in predjudices against pointing labs. They make the assumption that they are "trained to point" rather than bred to. These folks have likely never seen a _*quality*_ pointing lab run upland or they are so close minded that they won't believe their own eyes. I have owned both pointers and pointing labs and the end result is the same. The dog points the bird. I flush and shoot the bird. The dog retrieves the bird. The GSP might have shown a more stylish point but she didn't put any more birds in the bag.

For those that have seen disappointing performances of a pointing lab, ask yourself, "have I ever seen a GSP or an EP have a bad day?". These are dogs and most of them have an occassional bad day.

Another thing to consider is that we are probably less than 20 generations into breeding pointing labradors. Give us another hundred years or so and see how solid our dogs will be. It is a testament to the PL breeders of today that they have come far enough to even consider a competition against quality pointers. None of us is afraid of being embarrassed. We know what our dogs can do. Dale is running my dog and two of his puppies. These pups will be less than a year and a half old and he has the confidence to run them in this. It is breeding, more than training, at that age.

I don't want to turn the thread into a deep discussion of the merits or shortfalls of pointing labs, it's just that these things were brought up earlier and I felt they weren't fully addressed.

I will be at the event as an observer. I, like most folks that will be there, hope to have fun and see some good working dogs of various breeds. This is truly a case of "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game". Don't get me wrong, we will be trying our hardest to win where we can, but we are mostly just looking to win a little respect.

Good luck everbody. I'll see you there.

Brad


----------



## chewy

wow I may have to go for the entertainment. my dogs are out of state running in ND at that time. 

I wish I could find the post on this forum where the pl people said there dogs were as good as or better than a pointer. 

I will say this it sounds like the venue format should be a fair setup if not favor a dog that runs a pattern. should be interesting. no matter which way it goes don't take the results to heart. 

is this going to be an annual event?


----------



## Flash01

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Ok so we got dogs and we have a date. My guess is we need 2 judges, 2 planters, and a format regarding bird sets and what not. Dogs are allowed to wear a flat collar from what i understand. designated gunners for those that may be handicapped? (this is suppose to be a dog competition not about shooting skills). If allowed DG should not be allowed to assist handler in any way.
> All the NSTRA basic language regarding out of bounds,missed birds reworking birds. safeties going to be used?
> Knowing Loveday will only do this if he is riding an ATV the PL dogs need to be prepared.


Since backing/honoring is not a requirement, we will need to clearly define "interference". In NSTRA it is touching the other dog or taking the bird out, but we should have a clear definition for this event.


----------



## junebug

bwright27 said:


> My first post on this forum. I would like to repond to a few of the questions that were asked in this thread.
> 
> First, why a competition? We pointing lab owners are barred from almost all pointing events so those of us with quality dogs welcome any chance to test our dogs against others. Only by competing against really good pointing dogs will we be able to evaluate the progress that we have made with our own breed. We also feel that we need as many people that run in sanctioned pointing events to see our dogs perform as possible. Hopefully some of these folks will be convinced that our dogs should be allowed to perform in other pointing venues and will be advocates for us in the future.
> 
> Secondly, we PL owners fight a non-stop battle against ignorance. I don't say this in a mean way. We just like opportunities to educate the dog training public. Many people (like a few from early in this thread) come with built in predjudices against pointing labs. They make the assumption that they are "trained to point" rather than bred to. These folks have likely never seen a _*quality*_ pointing lab run upland or they are so close minded that they won't believe their own eyes. I have owned both pointers and pointing labs and the end result is the same. The dog points the bird. I flush and shoot the bird. The dog retrieves the bird. The GSP might have shown a more stylish point but she didn't put any more birds in the bag.
> 
> For those that have seen disappointing performances of a pointing lab, ask yourself, "have I ever seen a GSP or an EP have a bad day?". These are dogs and most of them have an occassional bad day.
> 
> Another thing to consider is that we are probably less than 20 generations into breeding pointing labradors. Give us another hundred years or so and see how solid our dogs will be. It is a testament to the PL breeders of today that they have come far enough to even consider a competition against quality pointers. None of us is afraid of being embarrassed. We know what our dogs can do. Dale is running my dog and two of his puppies. These pups will be less than a year and a half old and he has the confidence to run them in this. It is breeding, more than training, at that age.
> 
> I don't want to turn the thread into a deep discussion of the merits or shortfalls of pointing labs, it's just that these things were brought up earlier and I felt they weren't fully addressed.
> 
> I will be at the event as an observer. I, like most folks that will be there, hope to have fun and see some good working dogs of various breeds. This is truly a case of "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game". Don't get me wrong, we will be trying our hardest to win where we can, but we are mostly just looking to win a little respect.
> 
> Good luck everbody. I'll see you there.
> 
> Brad


Your point is well taken, now think about this. What are you giving up in the breed to get them to point? Are we going to see a great flusher in a 100yrs disappear? Is the Lab going to become like the Irish Setter,Gordan Setter and Weimer, have to fight to stay on the list as a bird dog ? We have enough people destroying are hunting breeds trying to make them in to what they are not meant to be. We don't have to help it along. Labs are already changing in how they look from 10yrs ago. They are not supposed to have long pointie skinny noses with curled tails. I believe the tail should be otter like. It won't be long before someone tries a short cut and breeds a pointer in there, if they haven't already. I would venture to say a DNA test would scare some breeders. Just an opion. And we all know what they say about opions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## junebug

kwas said:


> I dont think anyone wants to meet Jenn's cat, your new girlfriend.


Come on don't be afraid!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## junebug

crosswind said:


> Actually, I think Junebug and Socks started the whole mess. June bug says he is entering a dog, Socks says its his wifes birthday. Man they have one of those every year. Tell her Ryan will back her a cake and bring her with ya. Maybe we can even get Socks and Junebug a exibition match. But first Socks has got to show up.


Maybe socks can slip his leash and come play with the big dogs. His owner will still love him when he gets home. Lol!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bwright27

junebug said:


> Your point is well taken, now think about this. What are you giving up in the breed to get them to point? Are we going to see a great flusher in a 100yrs disappear? Is the Lab going to become like the Irish Setter,Gordan Setter and Weimer, have to fight to stay on the list as a bird dog ? We have enough people destroying are hunting breeds trying to make them in to what they are not meant to be. We don't have to help it along. Labs are already changing in how they look from 10yrs ago. They are not supposed to have long pointie skinny noses with curled tails. I believe the tail should be otter like. It won't be long before someone tries a short cut and breeds a pointer in there, if they haven't already. I would venture to say a DNA test would scare some breeders. Just an opion. And we all know what they say about opions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We don't intend to give up anything. You may notice that my dog is a complete retriever: HRCH and MH. The APLA hunt tests require both retrieving and upland hunting on the same day. A tough job for retriever. As for what they are "meant to be", these were bred from dogs that preferred to point rather than flush. It is as natural as flushing to them. We just prefer it. If you prefer a flushing dog, there will be some around as long as there is a market for them.

As for DNA, my dog's is on file with the AKC and is part of a scientific study (along with several other pointing labs) to try to figure out why they point. If there is any pointer in there I'm sure that we'll find out.

There is a big difference between what happened to the Irish and Gordon setters. Too much show dog influence. People worried about the length of their nose or the set of their tail rather than the quality of their hunt. Personally, I don't care if my dog is purple if I can go out and hunt ducks in the morning, point a grouse or two on my way back to the truck, catch a pheasant hunt in the early afternoon, and get back to the pond for a little evening flight action. All with only owning one dog. Just _my_ opinion and my last word on the subject in this thread where it doesn't really belong. If you see me at the event I'll be happy to discuss with you.


----------



## HRKPOINTINGLABS

junebug said:


> Your point is well taken, now think about this. What are you giving up in the breed to get them to point? Are we going to see a great flusher in a 100yrs disappear? Is the Lab going to become like the Irish Setter,Gordan Setter and Weimer, have to fight to stay on the list as a bird dog ? We have enough people destroying are hunting breeds trying to make them in to what they are not meant to be. We don't have to help it along. Labs are already changing in how they look from 10yrs ago. They are not supposed to have long pointie skinny noses with curled tails. I believe the tail should be otter like. It won't be long before someone tries a short cut and breeds a pointer in there, if they haven't already. I would venture to say a DNA test would scare some breeders. Just an opion. And we all know what they say about opions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Junebug,
I ll answer a few of those questions as far as retrieving, labs were not bred as flushers but as retrievers in the begining actually to help fisherman retrieve nets and still are bred as retrievers- it is in fact the field trial folks who are breeding for the more athletic sleek lab and they who have changed the look over the last many decades not for upland mind you but for the demanding tasks they need to do to win trials. All the dogs I am running are talented retrievers including 6 or 7 HRCH's, 3 of whom are AKC MasterHunters
And one of those who just won a qualied all age(retriever field trial)stake last spring, so I want you to know I as a breeder have not forgotten those skills.
All of my studs must have a DNA test done by AKC after 3 litters and all have done so. I also sumbmitted dna from just about all my breeding stock to a group last year reaseaching the pointing gene so its all on the table and legit here at our kennel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chewy

junebug was referring to with competition come the incentives to get ahead. mix alittle of this and that in there and u have a dominate dog. it's happened in the pointing dogs in just about every breed including the vizlas. they just have to breed the color back into them or spray paint them or surgically remove the white spot. yes this all has happened. a vizla has to conform to run field trials


----------



## junebug

deezel said:


> Just what we needed.. You believing anymore than you already did that your continued smartass and demeaning comments are of any real benefit to this forum!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't hate me because I can bring people together. Just have a Coke and smile!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Black Angus

Well Viper is awfully proud to have both his Mom and Dad running in this thing. We hope that it does become an annual event so we can play next year. We are coming to watch and eat.

As far as changing the breed I beleive it is the seeing eye dog people and the narcotic, bomb sniffing search and rescue people that are screwing up the breed. Don't they know Labs were bred to be flushers:evil:


----------



## junebug

bwright27 said:


> We don't intend to give up anything. You may notice that my dog is a complete retriever: HRCH and MH. The APLA hunt tests require both retrieving and upland hunting on the same day. A tough job for retriever. As for what they are "meant to be", these were bred from dogs that preferred to point rather than flush. It is as natural as flushing to them. We just prefer it. If you prefer a flushing dog, there will be some around as long as there is a market for them.
> 
> As for DNA, my dog's is on file with the AKC and is part of a scientific study (along with several other pointing labs) to try to figure out why they point. If there is any pointer in there I'm sure that we'll find out.
> 
> There is a big difference between what happened to the Irish and Gordon setters. Too much show dog influence. People worried about the length of their nose or the set of their tail rather than the quality of their hunt. Personally, I don't care if my dog is purple if I can go out and hunt ducks in the morning, point a grouse or two on my way back to the truck, catch a pheasant hunt in the early afternoon, and get back to the pond for a little evening flight action. All with only owning one dog. Just _my_ opinion and my last word on the subject in this thread where it doesn't really belong. If you see me at the event I'll be happy to discuss with you.


If this is not the thread for this discussion, why did you bring it here? Could it be that you just want your opinion heard and that's it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chewy

Black Angus said:


> Well Viper is awfully proud to have both his Mom and Dad running in this thing. We hope that it does become an annual event so we can play next year. We are coming to watch and eat.
> 
> As far as changing the breed I beleive it is the seeing eye dog people and the narcotic, bomb sniffing search and rescue people that are screwing up the breed. Don't they know Labs were bred to be flushers:evil:


I couldn't agree more.


----------



## HRKPOINTINGLABS

junebug said:


> If this is not the thread for this discussion, why did you bring it here? Could it be that you just want your opinion heard and that's it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually would like this thread to stay about the event and let the other stuff go for now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## remmi870

With all the bickering and bull that has gone on with this whole PL and Pointer let's just get all the details together for the challenge and put it behind us. Let's come together on the 27th and be owners, handlers and great friends. What more could you ask for, 30 plus dogs willing to put it all out there for some real fun. There will always be someone who has to get a dig in, at the end of the day we can sit back have some cocktails and laugh about the days events. If guy's or girls are still in the mood there is a great little bar only a few miles away where we can have dinner and continue to ponder on the day. Hope to see you all there and ready to run dogs.


----------



## Rugergundog

I can plant birds.

Obviously i would need someone to assist for a minute and plant while my dogs are running. Otherwise i would plant the fields.

Bob


----------



## Firemedic

I am going to ask Scott's brother Kevin. Probably one of the best there is. He plants our regional trial every year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HRKPOINTINGLABS

If PL's win the coverdog guys will never let you guys here the end of it, man that's pressure!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Firemedic

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> If PL's win the coverdog guys will never let you guys here the end of it, man that's pressure!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, at least we are all stepping up to the plate! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Socks

crosswind said:


> Actually, I think Junebug and Socks started the whole mess. June bug says he is entering a dog, Socks says its his wifes birthday. Man they have one of those every year. Tell her Ryan will back her a cake and bring her with ya. Maybe we can even get Socks and Junebug a exibition match. But first Socks has got to show up.


Hey! I didn't start anything! I just gave some information to the uniformed.:lol:

I now have permission to show up, but only for half a day so I'll have to be one of the earlier dogs to run. I stay for lunch, but then I'll have to head home. The wife said she gets something undecided at the moment for this transgression. Gee, thanks everyone.

Heck me and JD will go up against any dog. I'm not saying we'll win, but we'll do it. He's saved me and hosed at times during hunt tests, but he's my boy and I wouldn't give him up for the world.


----------



## HRKPOINTINGLABS

Socks said:


> Hey! I didn't start anything! I just gave some information to the uniformed.:lol:
> 
> I now have permission to show up, but only for half a day so I'll have to be one of the earlier dogs to run. I stay for lunch, but then I'll have to head home. The wife said she gets something undecided at the moment for this transgression. Gee, thanks everyone.
> 
> Heck me and JD will go up against any dog. I'm not saying we'll win, but we'll do it. He's saved me and hosed at times during hunt tests, but he's my boy and I wouldn't give him up for the world.


Put him on diet Joe last time I seen him he was starting to look like his JD. Ha!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## junebug

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> If PL's win the coverdog guys will never let you guys here the end of it, man that's pressure!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Has anyone decided what the winner gets?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Socks

junebug said:


> Your point is well taken, now think about this. What are you giving up in the breed to get them to point? Are we going to see a great flusher in a 100yrs disappear? Is the Lab going to become like the Irish Setter,Gordan Setter and Weimer, have to fight to stay on the list as a bird dog ? We have enough people destroying are hunting breeds trying to make them in to what they are not meant to be. We don't have to help it along. Labs are already changing in how they look from 10yrs ago. They are not supposed to have long pointie skinny noses with curled tails. I believe the tail should be otter like. It won't be long before someone tries a short cut and breeds a pointer in there, if they haven't already. I would venture to say a DNA test would scare some breeders. Just an opion. And we all know what they say about opions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sigh.....

First I'm the secretary this year the MI APLA test and I'm inviting you out to watch a Master test just so you can see what we have to do to get a pass. There's a water retrieve series and then a land retreive series. Both of these have to be passed before you can even enter into the upland series. In the land and water series you can see AKC and UKC type marks and blinds. Why? Because a lot of judges have or currently run those retriever only venues. My point(pun intended) is that these are retrievers that point not a dog that is losing it's name sake. Also, if you don't think that the retriever side doesn't come into play in the APLA upland series you'd be wrong. I'll tell you what happened when me and JD got our first Master pass together. He pointed a bird, was steady to wing and shot. I sent him to retrieve it and didn't really pay attention to where it landed because I was so focused on him pointing and being steady. On the way to the retrieve he stopped pointed a second bird before picking up the first bird. The judge asked me if I wanted to count that as a point. Being nervous I said yeah. The second bird was shot and retrieved. The judge then said that the first bird had to be picked up to count towards my score. I looked at him and said I don't know where it landed. He told me I can do a blind retrieve or a mark just as long as the bird was brought to hand so it could count. I had no choice: I sent JD on a mark that I had no idea where it landed, but JD did because of the multiple mark work we've done to pass the retriever side of the test. Without that delayed double retrieve we probably wouldn't have passed that day.

As for your rant about us field lab guys destroying the breed go gripe at the show lab people. Most of those dogs barely look anything like what a lab should look like. On top of that the vast majority of the drive and hunt has been bred out of them. So much so that there's only 45 to 50 current show labs that have won in the show ring and have a AKC Master Hunter title. On top of that it's been around 2 decades or more since there's been a dual champion of a show dog champion and a field trial champion. And here's the final nail in the coffin for your worry about us long skinny nosed curly tailed retriever owners. Go back and look at a picsof the last few dual lab champs and they'll look a lot like our current field labs and a lot less like the show labs.

Are there extremes in the field and show? Yep, there's hardly any show labs I'd own, but there are also some field labs I wouldn't own due to looks, drive, trainability, etc. You gotta do your research and know what you want and go with a reputable breedeer whether you want a pointing lab or a flushing lab. Hence, I want a lab that points, but stays true to his origins. That's why I run the hunt tests that I do and yeah that's why those titles matter to me; I know what it takes to get there and it's a crap load of work even if you have a good dog.

As for the DNA? Again your argument doesn't hold water. I've run genetic testing on my dog for breeding purposes and I would imagine that I would have told if my dog wasn't pure lab. Just sayin'. I also volunteered JD's DNA for testing to see if there was a "pointing gene". Would I do that if I was worried about a skunk in the woodpile?


----------



## junebug

Socks said:


> Hey! I didn't start anything! I just gave some information to the uniformed.:lol:
> 
> I now have permission to show up, but only for half a day so I'll have to be one of the earlier dogs to run. I stay for lunch, but then I'll have to head home. The wife said she gets something undecided at the moment for this transgression. Gee, thanks everyone.
> 
> Heck me and JD will go up against any dog. I'm not saying we'll win, but we'll do it. He's saved me and hosed at times during hunt tests, but he's my boy and I wouldn't give him up for the world.


Glad to hear you can slip your collar. See ya in Aug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Firemedic

Ok, from here on out, please keep posts in this thread related to the event. If ya wanna talk DNA blah blah blah, start another thread. Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## k9wernet

junebug said:


> Has anyone decided what the winner gets?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A PL pup AND a setter pup... both "trained to point" by none other than Scott Townsend. Just think, you run those pups in tandem and you'll OWN the grouse woods. And if you could get them to breed... 

KW


----------



## k9wernet

Is the event full, Ryan?

KW


----------



## Firemedic

Kevin, we have room for a few more. I do want a few for stand by too. Come on out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Firemedic

Seriously, keep this on track. You two can PM each other if needed. Thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## k9wernet

Firemedic said:


> Once again, PLEASE keep this on track. If you want to argue, keep it to PM's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So getting back on track...

Ryan, this is your baby. A lot of ideas have been kicked around over the past 8 or 9 pages. Do you want to re-post what you currently consider the rules/guidelines/scoring procedure?

Put me down for a female GSP mutt named Connie.

KW


----------



## Firemedic

Thanks Kevin, will do. I will talk it over with Scott and possibly Dale to figure out and post the final rules. Should be a great time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paco

Well I expect this whole thread to be gone by morning, making it a touch harder to keep it all moving forward, thanks for trying.


----------



## kek25

Shame it came down to this. Case someone didn't notice, Dale's participation is a primary reason the event drew such a large number of dogs.

Kind of took my comments about competition and civility and flushed them right down the toilet. 

I'm out, Ryan.


----------



## Firemedic

Sorry to hear that Keith. But I understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bobby

Paramedic said:


> 1. Firemedic EP/F
> 2. Paramedic GSP/M
> 3. Dale Rooster-Lab
> 4. Dale Rondo-Lab
> 5. Dale Jesse- Lab
> 6. Dale Sheba-Lab
> 7. Dale ZZ-Lab
> 8. Dale Scarlett-Lab
> 9. Dale Kenai-Lab
> 10. Frank/Dale Smoke-Lab
> 11. Frank/Dale Gator-Lab
> 12. Mark Duke-Lab
> 13. Eric Jax-lab
> 14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
> 15. Kelly Sage ESF (may scratch)
> 16.Matt Winnie- Lab
> 17.John Scooby-ES
> 18.John Jester-GSP/m
> 19.John Gretchen (snatchface)-GSP/f
> 20.Schatzie-GSP/f
> 21. RuggeD GSP/m
> 22. Ruger Britt/m
> 23. Junebug ES/m
> 24. Junebug ES/m
> 25.David Lloyd lab
> 26.david Loyd lab
> 27. Dale Rosco lab
> 28. Dale JD
> 29.Kibby Ranger/Apollo gsp/m
> 30.Townsend/
> 31. Kibby gsp/m
> 32. Terry ES/m
> 33.
> 34.





HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> If PL's win the coverdog guys will never let you guys here the end of it, man that's pressure!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let's keep the Coverdog guys out of this long, grammar challenged, testosterone filled rant. I do not recognize a single Coverdog person listed in the last participant list quoted above.


----------



## crosswind

Wow, what the heck happened, and why all the threats. I can tell ya this that behavior will not be tolerated at this event. It is to get together, run dogs and have a good time. Anyone out of line will be asked to leave.
You guys need to get over the attitudes and lets get back to organizing this deal so we can make it a success.


----------



## HRKPOINTINGLABS

kek25 said:


> Shame it came down to this. Case someone didn't notice, Dale's participation is a primary reason the event drew such a large number of dogs.
> 
> Kind of took my comments about competition and civility and flushed them right down the toilet.
> 
> I'm out, Ryan.


Don't back out I am not. 
There will be sportsman at this event and with that sportmanship.


----------



## SalmonBum

Good luck to all that attend. I'm sure it will a fun gathering of great dogs and People (but by jungbugs posts of intelligence, he may be the exception:lol. 

I'm not sure if I have a commited fishing trip that weekend or not, but if there is an extra set of hands needed for anything, let me know. I would love to come down and help give back a little to repay what I have learned from this forum and from the people I have personally met.

Bottom line is no matter what breed you have, all dogs are cool :coolgleam.


----------



## crosswind

Worm Dunker said:


> If theres going to be 20 min. brace count me in. I maybe able to walk that long. One setter male.


 Terry sign your dog/s up we can look at getting you on an ATV if that will help you out. Thats how we handle it in NSTRA. Let me know if that works for you.


----------



## GamebirdPreserve

Paco said:


> Well I expect this whole thread to be gone by morning, making it a touch harder to keep it all moving forward, thanks for trying.


 
Very sad ...


I would hope that the moderators will see that this was in fact a GREAT THING and not penalize the entire thread. 


I was trying to think of a way to get out of working the weekend here at the preserve to go see a lot of GREAT DOGS run from various competitive venues ALL TOGETHER for once! What a fabulous opportunity. 


It looks to be an almost sold out event and I hope it stays as such.


----------



## deezel

1. Shaun and Deezel - Lab (morning only)

Started a backup list. Not sure if my knucklehead will be ready for such a thing but if a spot needs to be filled I am willing, just has to be in the morning, I can only be there in the morning.


----------



## Socks

junebug said:


> Socks you are right. I do owe you an apology, I got a different post mixed up with yours. So I am sorry. Please except.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No sweat. I'll admit my comments were a little smart alec so I'll accept your apology if you accept mine. This whole thing is supposed to be a competition but with everyone rooting for all the dogs.



kek25 said:


> Shame it came down to this. Case someone didn't notice, Dale's participation is a primary reason the event drew such a large number of dogs.
> 
> Kind of took my comments about competition and civility and flushed them right down the toilet.
> 
> I'm out, Ryan.


I don't know you Kieth, but I hope you change your mind and show up.


----------



## Socks

Another thing I thought of last night. A simulated retrieve. Since Scott has pheasants out there and doesn't want them shot we should have one. If the dog is good enough to pin down a wild pheasant I think the point should count and then take a dead bird, throw, shoot and blank gun, and then retrieve.


----------



## chewy

k9wernet said:


> Are you saying that in a trial format you DON'T want the birds to move around a little? In that case, why not put the birds in launchers?
> 
> Seems to me you'd want them to spread some foot scent to give the dogs a real test and simulate real hunting conditions. Plenty of dogs that will stand up a bird in a launcher, but UP or bump 4/5 wild birds.
> 
> KW


I don't think anyone has said this is a trial
it is a friendly competition about finding birds, u want to be sure the fields are fair. so u plant them so they won't get up and move around out of the field or to the other field.

u don't put them in launchers for a couple reasons. do u have ten launchers? 
launchers are loaded with scent it makes it too easy to find birds or the launcher 
if a dog sees the bird moving around or laying there he has to remain steady. it's a test. 
launchers are for puppies.


----------



## Biggbear

k9wernet said:


> Are you saying that in a trial format you DON'T want the birds to move around a little? In that case, why not put the birds in launchers?
> 
> Seems to me you'd want them to spread some foot scent to give the dogs a real test and simulate real hunting conditions. Plenty of dogs that will stand up a bird in a launcher, but UP or bump 4/5 wild birds.
> 
> KW


K9- My reference to not liking when birds move around was not made in reference to the trial format at all, I've never even been to one, let alone enter one. For me it was a training reference. Last year I was working my pup on planted birds in far less than ideal scenting conditions. I found that if the bird moved on us he could pick up the scent, even work it for a ways, but being a pup would lose interest if the trail wasn't hot. It would have been far better training last year if I could have planted the birds and had them remain where I put them, or even reasonably close. I am very curious to see how to do this the right way. The birds I had were chukars, I tried tucking their heads, holding them by the feet and just dropping them in the cover as you walked away (Charlie Linblade showed that method at Woods-n-Water one year) and I never could get more than 2 out of 5 to still be there 15 minutes later. It will be great to see how it's done from someone who knows what the heck they're doing.

Now that we have a full season under our belts he'll actually work a track all the way out, but sooner or later there will be another pup.


----------



## BIGSP

Paco said:


> Thank Firemedic, Scott mostly and Dale, not me, but if you want to go grouse hunting sometime (the real deal in most of our books), give a shout.
> 
> Had a nice conversation with your bud at Madoka(sic)this AM,
> DO BELIEVE THIS THREAD IS DOING SOME GOOD.


Frank I will certainly take you up on that offer. Thanks for the invite.


----------



## Firemedic

I don't know how to make it any clearer. If it doesn't have to do with signing up or a question regarding rules, DO NOT POST. make your grouse season rendezvous plans elsewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rugergundog

I still intend to bring my Britt and GSP. When the rules and everything are all sorted out can it be PM'd out to us on the list?

Its tough to sift through 10+ pages of a lot of unrelated stuff. I don't want to miss the event because i skipped a page.

Thanks
Bob


----------



## Firemedic

Rugergundog said:


> Its tough to sift through 10+ pages of a lot of unrelated stuff. I don't want to miss the event because i skipped a page.
> 
> Thanks
> Bob


That would be nice, wouldn't it? :lol:

After I get the sign up completed, I will start a new thread with the complete rules and running order. I am thinking about a meeting with Scott and Dale to go over proposed rules before the event. Just so we are all on the same page.


----------



## Firemedic

_1. Firemedic EP/F
2. Firemedic GSP/M
3. Dale Rooster-Lab
4. Dale Rondo-Lab
5. Dale Jesse- Lab
6. Dale Sheba-Lab
7. Dale ZZ-Lab
8. Dale Scarlett-Lab
9. Dale Kenai-Lab
10. Frank/Dale Smoke-Lab
11. Frank/Dale Gator-Lab
12. Mark Duke-Lab
13. Eric Jax-lab
14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
15. Kelly Sage ESF (may scratch)
16.Matt Winnie- Lab
17.John Scooby-ES
18.John Jester-GSP/m
19.John Gretchen (snatchface)-GSP/f
20.Schatzie-GSP/f
21. RuggeD GSP/m
22. Ruger Britt/m
23. Kevin W gsp/f
24. Worm Dunker ES/m
25.David Lloyd lab
26.david Loyd lab
27. Dale Rosco lab
28. Dale JD
29.Kibby Ranger/Apollo gsp/m
30.Townsend/Zach BR/m
31. Kibby gsp/m
32. Ritter gsp/m (maybe)
33. 
34._

_
_


----------



## crosswind

kellyM87 said:


> I dunno, I dont think they care if the birds are moving a little, I think they care if they leave the field. I ran a hunt test where the bird planters sucked and more than a few braces went birdless. It is no fun when you pay $45 dollars and there are no birds in the field when you get out there.


Well said. Im not gonna claim the birds will be right where I lay them, but they will be in that area for the duration of the brace. The longer they are out there the more likely they are to walk around.


----------



## Firemedic

crosswind said:


> Well said. I not gonna claim the birds will be right where I lay them, but they will be in that area for the duration of the brace. The longer they are out there the more likely they are to walk around.


I put you down to run Zach, just in case you decide to have Kevin plant. If not, I will take you out.


----------



## crosswind

Dale, you are down for running 9 braces. I would recommend you get some help on handling dogs. 9 braces run by the same person is barely do-able, it will more then likely put you back to back is some situations. Plus it is gonna slow the trial down. We have allot of dogs to get through so this thing needs to move along. Ideally you should only be running half that amount. At the end of the day your body will be glad you didn't run 9.

People this event is gonna happen rain or shine. If for the unfortunate reason it is storming with lightening, we will hold up until that passes, but if its just rain, its on. So bring raingear if need be.

As this thing gets closer we, actually Ryan.LOL. will start coordinating the food.

One other thing the shot size is limited to 7 1/2. No 6"s or smaller. All pointing labs gunners must use 9 shot or bigger.LOL. Blanks are exceptable also.


----------



## Firemedic

Another proposed rule, no handling your dog into a point. Meaning, once you dog establishes point, then whoa is allowed. You may not whoa the dog til it is established. Am I saying that right?

Same rule is also used in the RGS trials.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chewy

y don't u have kibby make a website? u can put all the rules and sign up sheets on there and u won't have to sort posts


----------



## Firemedic

chewy said:


> y don't u have kibby make a website? u can put all the rules and sign up sheets on there and u won't have to sort posts


Good idea chewy, I'll ask him this weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Firemedic

I received a FWD PM regarding having Vance Butler as a 2nd judge. We would be happy to have Vance judge. 

Since Kenny Loveday and Vance both have lab and pointer experience, this should be as fair as it can get.

Whom ever sent the original PM regarding Vance, please tell him he has been chosen to judge.

Both judges will be compensated and offered free lunch.


----------



## kellyM87

How are winners chosen? Top 2 of each group? Or top 3 all breed? Are there going to be prizes? I work at a pet store so I can get stuff cheap if people give me ideas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Firemedic

_1. Firemedic EP/F
2. Firemedic GSP/M
3. Dale Rooster-Lab
4. Dale Rondo-Lab
5. Dale Jesse- Lab
6. Dale Sheba-Lab
7. Dale ZZ-Lab
8. Dale Scarlett-Lab
9. Dale Kenai-Lab
10. Frank/Dale Smoke-Lab
11. Frank/Dale Gator-Lab
12. Mark Duke-Lab
13. Eric Jax-lab
14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
15. Kelly Sage ESF (may scratch)
16.Matt Winnie- Lab
17.John Scooby-ES
18.John Jester-GSP/m
19.John Gretchen (snatchface)-GSP/f
20.Schatzie-GSP/f
21. RuggeD GSP/m
22. Ruger Britt/m
23. Kevin W gsp/f
24. Worm Dunker ES/m
25.David Lloyd lab
26.david Loyd lab
27. Dale Rosco lab
28. Joe Lab/m
29.Kibby Ranger/Apollo gsp/m
30.Townsend/Zach BR/m
31. Kibby gsp/m
32. Greg GSP/m
33. Pat GSP/m
34. Dave Cotton GSP/m


_As of now we are full. I will now start a stand by list, please PM me if you want in on stand by. If we have time, we can always run the stand-by dogs.


----------



## Firemedic

kellyM87 said:


> How are winners chosen? Top 2 of each group? Or top 3 all breed? Are there going to be prizes? I work at a pet store so I can get stuff cheap if people give me ideas.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are going to add up the scores of the labs, and the scores of the pointers. That will determine the winning group. I would like a pallet of Pro Plan Performance if I win. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Socks

Firemedic said:


> Let's just keep it to finding, pointing, shooting, retrieving. We all agree we can accomplish that with both sides.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think I was clear enough. I was thinking a simulated retrieve for instances of after the bird is pointed if it happens to be out of bounds or if a safety is called when the bird is in flight. This wouldn't be for testing the retrieve, just scoring a retrieve after a bird is pointed.



crosswind said:


> Socks, I thought about this issue also. I have know problem scoring the find. But what we may run into at time of the season is it may be a brood of several. When they flush they ony fly a short ways. I don't want anyone to have the advantage of pointing several pheasant chicks in a 50 yard area and beating their brace mate.
> If we were working with just adult birds I would totally agree, score it.
> So I think for this one lets just don't count the pheasants. I am going to leave a portion of the field out of the event, hoping that they will be pushed over there. My neighbors have good cover also, so they have other places to go for the day.
> 
> Thoughts??????


I didn't even think about the young chicks out there. Works for me not scoring pheasants. Although I must admit if I think JD's working and trying to pin down a wild pheasant I'm gonna let him, unless you say no or it interferes with someone else even if it gets me out of the running.  He needs wild bird exposure.


----------



## Socks

Firemedic said:


> _1. Firemedic EP/F_
> _2. Firemedic GSP/M_
> _3. Dale Rooster-Lab_
> _4. Dale Rondo-Lab_
> _5. Dale Jesse- Lab_
> _6. Dale Sheba-Lab_
> _7. Dale ZZ-Lab_
> _8. Dale Scarlett-Lab_
> _9. Dale Kenai-Lab_
> _10. Frank/Dale Smoke-Lab_
> _11. Frank/Dale Gator-Lab_
> _12. Mark Duke-Lab_
> _13. Eric Jax-lab_
> _14.Bruce and Cruz-lab_
> _15. Kelly Sage ESF (may scratch)_
> _16.Matt Winnie- Lab_
> _17.John Scooby-ES_
> _18.John Jester-GSP/m_
> _19.John Gretchen (snatchface)-GSP/f_
> _20.Schatzie-GSP/f_
> _21. RuggeD GSP/m_
> _22. Ruger Britt/m_
> _23. Kevin W gsp/f_
> _24. Worm Dunker ES/m_
> _25.David Lloyd lab_
> _26.david Loyd lab_
> _27. Dale Rosco lab_
> _28. Dale JD_
> _29.Kibby Ranger/Apollo gsp/m_
> _30.Townsend/Zach BR/m_
> _31. Kibby gsp/m_
> _32. Greg GSP/m_
> _33. Pat GSP/m_
> _34. Dave Cotton GSP/m_
> 
> 
> As of now we are full. I will now start a stand by list, please PM me if you want in on stand by. If we have time, we can always run the stand-by dogs.


Substitute Joe for Dale for slot 28. I do need to be one of the earlier braces though.


----------



## Firemedic

Joe, correction made. When we draw the braces, we will make sure you get an early one. 

When we do the draw, I'd like to have Scott and Dale present.


----------



## Socks

Firemedic said:


> Joe, correction made. When we draw the braces, we will make sure you get an early one.
> 
> When we do the draw, I'd like to have Scott and Dale present.


 Slot 28 should read "Joe JD lab/m"


----------



## Firemedic

Socks said:


> Slot 28 should read "Joe JD lab/m"


It does, don't read your quote, read the post above it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## crosswind

Firemedic said:


> We are going to add up the scores of the labs, and the scores of the pointers. That will determine the winning group. I would like a pallet of Pro Plan Performance if I win. Lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Kelly do ya think you can get like maybe a poodle or pugle or something like that for first place.


----------



## HRKPOINTINGLABS

crosswind said:


> Dale, you are down for running 9 braces. I would recommend you get some help on handling dogs. 9 braces run by the same person is barely do-able, it will more then likely put you back to back is some situations. Plus it is gonna slow the trial down. We have allot of dogs to get through so this thing needs to move along. Ideally you should only be running half that amount. At the end of the day your body will be glad you didn't run 9.
> 
> People this event is gonna happen rain or shine. If for the unfortunate reason it is storming with lightening, we will hold up until that passes, but if its just rain, its on. So bring raingear if need be.
> 
> As this thing gets closer we, actually Ryan.LOL. will start coordinating the food.
> 
> One other thing the shot size is limited to 7 1/2. No 6"s or smaller. All pointing labs gunners must use 9 shot or bigger.LOL. Blanks are exceptable also.


I ll cut it to 7 so I go every other brace. Matt C will Run Scarlet.
Normal day for me.


----------



## crosswind

Socks said:


> I don't think I was clear enough. I was thinking a simulated retrieve for instances of after the bird is pointed if it happens to be out of bounds or if a safety is called when the bird is in flight. This wouldn't be for testing the retrieve, just scoring a retrieve after a bird is pointed.
> Are you talking about throwing a bird out for a retrieve in the event the handler calls a safety ????
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't even think about the young chicks out there. Works for me not scoring pheasants. Although I must admit if I think JD's working and trying to pin down a wild pheasant I'm gonna let him, unless you say no or it interferes with someone else even if it gets me out of the running.  He needs wild bird exposure.


We aren't going to have much if any control over them pointing a wild bird. In the name of trying to keep everything equal (same amount of birds for each) the wild birds will NOT be scored. Usually the wild birds will be run off the field with the first couple of braces.We will try to sweep the field prior to the first brace to get them off before we start.
Ya just never know with those young broods, their dumb at that stage but they should be flying by then. We also get turkeys and turkey chicks out there too.Ya just never know.


----------



## Socks

crosswind said:


> We aren't going to have much if any control over them pointing a wild bird. In the name of trying to keep everything equal (same amount of birds for each) the wild birds will NOT be scored. Usually the wild birds will be run off the field with the first couple of braces.We will try to sweep the field prior to the first brace to get them off before we start.
> Ya just never know with those young broods, their dumb at that stage but they should be flying by then. We also get turkeys and turkey chicks out there too.Ya just never know.


Yep throw out a bird for a retrieve if a safety is called.

Ya you never know. For all I know my dog will decide turkey hunting is the best thing in the world. :lol:


----------



## crosswind

Socks said:


> Yep throw out a bird for a retrieve if a safety is called.
> 
> Ya you never know. For all I know my dog will decide turkey hunting is the best thing in the world. :lol:


 Socks that is the common practise. To throw out a bird for a retrieve. It can be at the time of the safety or at the end of the brace.


----------



## Rugergundog

Firemedic said:


> _1. Firemedic EP/F_
> _2. Firemedic GSP/M_
> _3. Dale Rooster-Lab_
> _4. Dale Rondo-Lab_
> _5. Dale Jesse- Lab_
> _6. Dale Sheba-Lab_
> _7. Dale ZZ-Lab_
> _8. Dale Scarlett-Lab_
> _9. Dale Kenai-Lab_
> _10. Frank/Dale Smoke-Lab_
> _11. Frank/Dale Gator-Lab_
> _12. Mark Duke-Lab_
> _13. Eric Jax-lab_
> _14.Bruce and Cruz-lab_
> _15. Kelly Sage ESF (may scratch)_
> _16.Matt Winnie- Lab_
> _17.John Scooby-ES_
> _18.John Jester-GSP/m_
> _19.John Gretchen (snatchface)-GSP/f_
> _20.Schatzie-GSP/f_
> _21. RuggeD GSP/m_
> _22. Ruger Britt/m_
> _23. Kevin W gsp/f_
> _24. Worm Dunker ES/m_
> _25.David Lloyd lab_
> _26.david Loyd lab_
> _27. Dale Rosco lab_
> _28. Dale JD_
> _29.Kibby Ranger/Apollo gsp/m_
> _30.Townsend/Zach BR/m_
> _31. Kibby gsp/m_
> _32. Ritter gsp/m (maybe)_
> _33. _
> _34._


 Hey Fire..noticed my GSP not on the latest list. I think you just miss spelled him.
Kilian Male GSP
Ruger Male Brittany

Thanks
Bob


----------



## Firemedic

_1. Firemedic Morgan EP/F
2. Firemedic Danner GSP/M
3. Dale Rooster-Lab
4. Dale Rondo-Lab
5. Dale Jesse- Lab
6. Dale Sheba-Lab
7. Dale ZZ-Lab
8. Dale Scarlett-Lab
9. Dale Kenai-Lab
10. Frank/Dale Smoke-Lab
11. Frank/Dale Gator-Lab
12. Mark Duke-Lab
13. Eric Jax-lab
14.Bruce and Cruz-lab
15. Kelly Sage ESF (may scratch)
16.Matt Winnie- Lab
17.John Scooby-ES/M
18.John Jester-GSP/m
19.John Gretchen (snatchface)-GSP/f
20.Sandy Schatzie-GSP/f
21. Bob Kilian GSP/m
22. Bob Ruger Britt/m
23. Kevin W Connie gsp/f
24. Worm Dunker ES/m
25.David Lloyd lab
26.david Loyd lab
27. Dale Rosco lab
28. Joe JD Lab/m
29.Kibby Ranger/Apollo gsp/m
30.Townsend/Zach BR/m
31. Kibby Luke GSP/m
32. Greg Bo GSP/m
33. Pat Hank GSP/m
34. Dave Cotton GSP/m

All fixed. 

_


----------



## bwright27

Are you planning any individual awards or is this team only? Is time of run going to be scored or only number of birds?


----------



## Firemedic

bwright27 said:


> Are you planning any individual awards or is this team only? Is time of run going to be scored or only number of birds?


Good questions. Im order to keep costs down, I don't think we are going to award prizes and such, unless everyone wants to chip in extra money. We could get a plaque made with the winning team, if we wanted this to be an annual event. But let's see how this one pans out first. 

The way the scoring was going to work was 2 points each find, 2 points each retrieve. Highest scoring team wins.


----------



## remmi870

Can we run beepers or bells?


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## Firemedic

remmi870 said:


> Can we run beepers or bells?


No. Only a single flat collar. 

In reality, you won't need one out there.


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## bwright27

I would suggest that we kick in a few bucks for some sort of trophy and/or ribbons for the 5 or so highest point dogs. Maybe even a ribbon to the highest point pointer and one to the highest point lab. Fosters a little competition within a competition. That way if one team is ahead by an insurmountable margin with 3 dogs left to run it still gives real incentive to compete to the remaining dogs.

I think we should wait on a trophy for the team event until afterwards. If you guys decide that the competition was close enough to merit an ongoing challenge, a team trophy or plaque could be bought and left at the club.


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## Firemedic

bwright27 said:


> I would suggest that we kick in a few bucks for some sort of trophy and/or ribbons for the 5 or so highest point dogs. May be even a ribbon to the highest point pointer and one to the highest point lab. Fosters a little competition within a competition. That way if one team is ahead by an insurmountable margin with 3 dogs left to run it still gives real incentive to compete to the remaining dogs.
> 
> I think we should wait on a trophy for the team event until afterwards. If you guys decide that the competition was close enough to merit an ongoing challenge, a team trophy or plaque could be bought and left at the club.


If that is something you would like to take on, give it hell. With as many dogs as Scott and Dale train, and myself with my dog training and other items I am taking care of i.e. food, website, etc, no one will have time. 

Once again, that just adds to the cost of entry fees.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf_Dancer34

Firemedic said:


> How many dogs should I put you down for Wolfdancer?
> 
> Once again, stop the ****talk, if you are coming, then fine. If not, save this thread for those who are and that would like to ask question regarding the event rules.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do actually have a dog running..her name is ZZ. Any more questions?And for the record it was a joke since they are friends of mine....sorry if it sounded negative.


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## Worm Dunker

I have a question. Some of the dogs entered don't list sex. If they have a female come in to heat will they run her or that brace after the males have run? Not sure which male I will run but I know if a female runs and put a little love smell on the field the last thing mine will look for is chuckers!!!! Also if there is an aggressive male that bothers the other will the judge order it up?. Let me check on awards I have a bunch of old dog placement plaques and a buddy that makes them maybe he can rework them to give out. What would they wont a winner, r.u., third, and maybe a fourth or honorable mention? Somebody PM me the official name, of this and date so I can forward to my buddy.


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## Firemedic

No females in heat on the grounds, aggressive dogs will be ordered up immediately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joker1234

I want in on this. Dale pull a dog so I can get a spot.

_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors_


----------



## bwright27

Firemedic said:


> If that is something you would like to take on, give it hell. With as many dogs as Scott and Dale train, and myself with my dog training and other items I am taking care of i.e. food, website, etc, no one will have time.
> 
> Once again, that just adds to the cost of entry fees.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I work in California and will only be home 5 days before the week of the competition. I have PM'd Wormdunker to see if there is something that can be done. As for the cost, l recommend that we see how much it is (I have no idea) before saying yea or nay to the plan.

If anyone thinks it is a really bad idea please speak up. I would like to see that the original organizers and event drivers are completely comfortable with the plan. I don't want to hijack the focus of the event especially because I won't be around for the legwork. It is merely a suggestion.


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## Rugergundog

nice looking little web page.


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## Rugergundog

Fire/Scott
How do you want us to handle payment.
Bob


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## Firemedic

Bob, hold off til next week. We need to discuss the cost, but itooks to be around 35.00 They will be sent to Scott's address posted on the site.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## R. Ford

Are experienced NSTRA dogs being used in this 'Challenge'? If so, it will be a tough road for the PL crowd.


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## Firemedic

R. Ford said:


> Are experienced NSTRA dogs being used in this 'Challenge'? If so, it will be a tough road for the PL crowd.


There are only a few, but yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paco

R. Ford said:


> Are experienced NSTRA dogs being used in this 'Challenge'? If so, it will be a tough road for the PL crowd.


Lifes a tough road, sorta like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.

It will be a good learning experience for those willing to learn, on both sides.............And I have yet to take part in a dog event that was not a fun day, period. Even when we did not fair too well.


Now I fully expect Firemedic to get on me for whatever.:lol:


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## Flash01

We have gotten 14 pictures so far... keep them coming.

www.pointingdogchallenge.com


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## Scott Berg

Paco said:


> It will be a good learning experience for those willing to learn, on both sides.............And I have yet to take part in a dog event that was not a fun day, period. Even when we did not fair too well.


Great post! This is the intended spirit of dog events. You should not have to win to have a very good time. It's about the experience and camaraderie.

Ryan, it's really cool that you guys put together a website for this event. Nice job! This could be a really fun annual event. How cool is it that you guys turned a friendly debate into an event everyone can enjoy. My hat is off to you all! We can all learn from your example.

SRB


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## Firemedic

Scott Berg said:


> Ryan, it's really cool that you guys put together a website for this event. Nice job! This could be a really fun annual event. How cool is it that you guys turned a friendly debate into an event everyone can enjoy. My hat is off to you all! We can all learn from your example.
> 
> SRB


 
Thanks Scott, but all the work goes to the Kibby bros, I just added a little bit of content. Those two are top notch when it comes to the www. 

I am really looking forward to this event. There is no doubt in my mind a great time will be had, no matter who comes out on top. 

I hope to make it some kind of annual event, as long as Townsend approves. :lol:


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## GamebirdPreserve

Firemedic said:


> Thanks Scott, but all the work goes to the Kibby bros, I just added a little bit of content. Those two are top notch when it comes to the www.
> 
> I am really looking forward to this event. There is no doubt in my mind a great time will be had, no matter who comes out on top.
> 
> I hope to make it some kind of annual event, as long as Townsend approves. :lol:


 
Ryan,

I agree, everything about this event is AWESOME! 


I think it is really GREAT that both sides of the coin can come together just to see what all the others' breeds are capable of doing in the field and all within a friendly environment. It looks like there are going to be some really nice running dogs there for the event and I am sure that everyone will have a blast - WIN OR LOSE. Fun people, good dogs, and great event ... you could not ask for more! 


It would be FANTASTIC to do this every year, but you may have to build some bleachers and charge a SPECTATOR FEE! :lol: From the posts, I know that there are some people on the MS Forum who would love to come to watch the event even though they are not able to participate. Do you have any idea how you are going to deal with spectators? I have never been to Scott's place so I do not know if he has enough parking or viewing places for extra people to watch from the sidelines. Does a bottle of Crown get the spectators in? :evilsmile


I for one, would love to come watch all the dogs in this fun competition if only my "BOSS" would give me the day off on the weekend ... but I do not know if that will ever happen ...


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## Firemedic

There is plenty of parking. 90% of the fields are visible from the fence, and more than enough room for spectators. 

Vicki, I do like the bottle of CR for an enterance fee idea!


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## Rugergundog

I suppose this applies. But just down the road from Scotts a few miles there is a pot hole that appears to be from an IED going off; about took my front wheel off the car a few weeks ago. Use some caution if you are hauling a dog trailer...unless they filled some holes. This hole was big enough that a motorcycle rider would no doubt go down if they hit it.

But back on track and of most important topics: BBQ. Ill bring along some of my homemde BBQ sauce i perfected this summer people can try with those sandwiches you have perfected.

Bob


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## Firemedic

Rugergundog said:


> I suppose this applies. But just down the road from Scotts a few miles there is a pot hole that appears to be from an IED going off; about took my front wheel off the car a few weeks ago. Use some caution if you are hauling a dog trailer...unless they filled some holes. This hole was big enough that a motorcycle rider would no doubt go down if they hit it.
> 
> Those roads are terrible. May as well tear up the road and make it dirt.
> 
> But back on track and of most important topics: BBQ. Ill bring along some of my homemde BBQ sauce i perfected this summer people can try with those sandwiches you have perfected.
> 
> You better be bringing chicken then, BBQ sauce doesn't belong on my pork, only vinegar finishing sauce!:lol:
> 
> Bob


.....


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## Buddwiser

Ryan.....I have quite a few paper plates, cups, bowls and plastic ware left over. Do you need the stuff?


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## Firemedic

Buddwiser said:


> Ryan.....I have quite a few paper plates, cups, bowls and plastic ware left over. Do you need the stuff?


As long as you have enough left over to bring in September! :lol:

That would be great!


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## kellyM87

I'll bring some pretzel jello. Yummy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Firemedic

kellyM87 said:


> I'll bring some pretzel jello. Yummy!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love that stuff!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rugergundog

Fire-
The bbq sauce is pretty much a vineger base made in the smoker. Ill bring'er its some good stuff, not like a store thick bbq sauce, much like that jar of stuff you had at Scotts for the GLSDA event.


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## Firemedic

Ok, I we have decided to keep the entry at 35 dollars a dog. That leaves just enough mony to buy the birds, pay the judges, bird planter and _maybe _rent a porta-crapper, so I don't have to pay outta pocket for that. 

Please PM me with your real name and Dog(s) name, and I will PM you back my home address to send the check to. You can trust me with your money, I work for the government. :lol:


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## Firemedic

OK, I have only received PM's from Ruger, Loydboy and Flash. The rest of you need to PM me with your info so I can give you my address to send the entry fee checks to.

BlueBriar is ordering the birds in the next two weeks, so I need your money.


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## Rugergundog

I know its been a bit back in the tread, but if hauling a dog trailer look out for some big holes a few miles from Scotts place.

See you all tomorrow !


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## Steelheadfred

Big lead for the underdogs just past half way, lots of time still on the clock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GamebirdPreserve

So sorry I missed going to this event today! 
Bill's dad went into the hospital emergency yesterday and is having surgery today. 
I had planning on going to this all week and was looking so forward to it. 


*The Twitter Tweets are great to see how it is going though ... THANKS!*

THANKS so much for letting us share in the fun, even if we were unable to attend. It is really appreciated! 


I just checked for the first time on TWITTER and "WOW" ... what an exciting competition they have going with this event ...


*After 10 rounds here is the scoop from TWITTER**:* 


*"PointingDogChal*_ After 10- team pl 43. Team tpd 28. Team pointing lab is on fire! Team tpd looking for a good fireman._
_about 1 hour ago via __Twitter for Android_"


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## N M Mechanical

It is all over but the crying! Labs do point and hold there birds for those of you that bad mouth the labs go to the line with them and see what they do they find birds!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

dadx4 said:


> .Hey Lab guys/gals! Curious about the dog you're drawn against? Many can be found here -> [URL="http://t.co/VAKY6p7"]http://t.co/VAKY6p7[/URL]


 
AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

This has to hurt for the Pointing Dog team, home field advantage and all.


DadX4, if your curious about the pointing labs drawn in this event, check the ass whipping here: http://pointingdogchallenge.com/index.php?page=results

In all seriousness, congrats to the winning team and applause to those who put reputations on the line.


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## Rugergundog

I had a great time at the event. Thanks for the hospitality Scott, and Ryan thanks for the awesome lunch again.

As for the hunt, it was fun. Tough conditions all around from morning through the day.

From my observation things were pretty much equal until the Lab guys got smart. Seemed when both dogs went in the same direction together the pointers were picking up birds out front and the labs finding the birds the pointers overlooked....really a pretty awesome combination and things were pretty equal.

IMHO once the lab guys went off in a different direction and worked from one end and let the pointers work from the other end the labs began to kick butt. My GSP and serval others seemed to burn up while the labs did a great job with pace to handle the conditions. Anyhooter...this is just my novice perspective on why things might have gone as they did. 

In any event ive never doubted the labs, i dig 'em!

Oddly only one of the "almighty setters" that i seen. Was dang near a GSP vs pointing lab competition.

good fun....lets go 'er again!
-Bob


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## SalmonBum

Labs on left. Pointers on right


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## stndpenguin

HA HA, cant wait for the posts that come next


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## griffondog

Lots of handler errors in the morning. Watched three shorthair handlers pull their dogs off 4 birds that the labs picked up. Dale got three of them. You need to trust your dogs. 

Griff


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## Steelheadfred

So Bob, what part was = ? Looks like via twitter the visiting team had a 100% lead at one point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GamebirdPreserve

SalmonBum said:


> Labs on left. Pointers on right
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Duece22

Feels good to be a lab owner! Hopefully the whooping will gain them a tad more respect with some. 

Congrats to everyone who participated and all the guys that put this together. Thank you for giving the pointing lab a fair shake and putting on a great event. 
RH


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


----------



## Rugergundog

Steelheadfred said:


> So Bob, what part was = ? Looks like via twitter the visiting team had a 100% lead at one point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Without recalling back to the dry erase board, i think at one point maybe brace 5 or 6 or something the scores were pretty much equal; within a point or so. The labs had a few super good braces right around lunch time; right at the same time the pointers had a few poorer braces. I think by the time i ran my second dog the labs were up by 11 points...brace 14 or so.

It was fun. Interestingly everyone was pretty polite in the big group setting; however back at the trucks the jaw jacking from both sides was flying.

Again, I loved it. Not a real scientific comparo by any means. Any given day the results could prob go either way.

I think what it did show is some great dog work on both sides and lots of people learning a little about each end.

Was cool to see the spectators give each dog and handler a applause on the way it.........way cool!


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## Duece22

Rugergundog said:


> I had a great time at the event. Thanks for the hospitality Scott, and Ryan thanks for the awesome lunch again.
> 
> As for the hunt, it was fun. Tough conditions all around from morning through the day.
> 
> From my observation things were pretty much equal until the Lab guys got smart. Seemed when both dogs went in the same direction together the pointers were picking up birds out front and the labs finding the birds the pointers overlooked....really a pretty awesome combination and things were pretty equal.
> 
> IMHO once the lab guys went off in a different direction and worked from one end and let the pointers work from the other end the labs began to kick butt. My GSP and serval others seemed to burn up while the labs did a great job with pace to handle the conditions. Anyhooter...this is just my novice perspective on why things might have gone as they did.
> 
> In any event ive never doubted the labs, i dig 'em!
> 
> Oddly only one of the "almighty setters" that i seen. Was dang near a GSP vs pointing lab competition.
> 
> good fun....lets go 'er again!
> -Bob


Excuses are never a good sign of reality. 


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


----------



## Rugergundog

Duece22 said:


> Excuses are never a good sign of reality.
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


 
Don't know why you quoted me....i didn't make any excuse. Just saying it how i seen it.

Simple matter of observation and my personal opinion as a participant.


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## Socks

It was a great time! It was nice to see good dog work regardless of breed. 

I was in the first brace and man the scenting conditions were just really tough! Little to no wind, lots of dew on the grass. The bird I found was wet and didn't want to fly, but ended up getting it. As the day went on and the grass dried up and a little bit more wind helped.

Saw some good dog work on both sides. There was a nice little brittney that did very well and some GSP's that were very nice and staunch. I know Chris Ritters dog was a rock and I liked what I saw. Good stuff. I also got to meet some new PL guys and get reaquainted with some PL guys and gals I already knew. The PL Cruz did exactly that through the field and it was fun seeing some of the PL's do their thing too.

A big thanks to the Scott, Ryan, and the judges for doing this. I'd like to do it again.

We can talk smack all we want but in the end it boils down to good dog work and dog people. Had a great time.


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## wirehair

Way to go PL's! You have turned the bird dog world upside down. LOL


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## bwright27

Thanks to Crosswind and all the traditional pointing breeds guys for letting us play. We really hope that this will be a small step towards other formal organizations being as open-minded and courageous. Thanks to the judges and bird handlers for a great job. We had a great time. I guess there is truth to the old adage, "every dog has his day".


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## dadx4

I learned two things yesterday: 1. Pointing labs are the real deal and 2. Pointing lab people are pretty cool. Grats on a great day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GamebirdPreserve

Ryan and the Crosswind Crew, 


A great big thank you for allowing everyone to come together and have fun in the fields! I know personally that it takes a ton of work to put on an event of this size and you went above and beyond with all that went into this friendly competition. Thanks to all of the Participants, Judges, Bird Handlers, Food Preparers, Ground Keepers and the Twitter Updaters for an exciting day. We all appreciate sharing your time so that others could be a part of this unique challenge ... in person and/or online.



I am sure that the Crown went to good use last night ...  for all! 


*There are so many factors involved in having a successful day in the field and it looks like it was indeed a POINTING LAB DAY yesterday. Congratulations to the POINTING LAB TEAM on your victory!*


Over the years, we have seen an increasing number of the PL breed here in our fields (training and/or hunting) and we know that they indeed have what it takes to be very effective in the Upland Game. It was nice that they were able to show off some of those skills yesterday to everyone. I only wish that I could have been there to see it in person!


Congratulations to all involved for the fine sportsmanship amongst everyone. We are all in this bird dog sport to have fun ... no matter our personal breed of choice!


----------



## Flash01

Steelheadfred said:


> AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
> 
> This has to hurt for the Pointing Dog team, home field advantage and all.
> 
> 
> DadX4, if your curious about the pointing labs drawn in this event, check the ass whipping here: http://pointingdogchallenge.com/index.php?page=results



There is one in every crowd. <sigh> 

I had fun and met some new people. Thanks to Ryan, Scott, the judges and everyone involved in preparation for a fun, well run event.


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## N M Mechanical

Sorry to bring this back up but my question is what was the average age of the pointing labs? Believe me I am not trying to stir the pot just wondering if I was looking at pups or more finished dogs. Just wondering
Nick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## remmi870

Most PLs were 4 or younger. Average age was probly more like 2 1/2.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## crosswind

If there is enough interest, I will do another one in the April/May time frame.


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## N M Mechanical

crosswind said:


> If there is enough interest, I will do another one in the April/May time frame.


Yeah it was a good time I would be willing to give it another go if the date works
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Botek

I've got a EP that desperately needs to make the breed, himself, and me look foolish! The earlier ahead a date can be set, the better! 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## JYDOG

There are a lot of hunt tests in May. I'm thinking April 21 would be a good date. I don't have anything that points, I just want to watch.


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## N M Mechanical

21st of april is the lakeshore chapters trial
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike McDonald

Before you get this set up can we have another debate about the relative merits of anything? I'm bored. mac


----------



## HRKPOINTINGLABS

N M Mechanical said:


> Sorry to bring this back up but my question is what was the average age of the pointing labs? Believe me I am not trying to stir the pot just wondering if I was looking at pups or more finished dogs. Just wondering
> Nick
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Scarlett- 17 months
Winnie-17months
Deezle-23months
Sheba-2yrs
ZZ-2yrs
Lexi-2yrs
Smoke-2yrs
Jesse-3yrs-
Rondo-3yrs
Cruz-3yrs
Kenai-3yrs
JD- 3 or 4yrs
Rooster- 4yrs( June)
Oliver-4yrs(June)
Duke- 5yrs
Gator-7yrs??
Abe-???


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## Lloydboy

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Scarlett- 17 months
> Winnie-17months
> Deezle-23months
> Sheba-2yrs
> ZZ-2yrs
> Lexi-2yrs
> Smoke-2yrs
> Jesse-3yrs-
> Rondo-3yrs
> Cruz-3yrs
> Kenai-3yrs
> JD- 3 or 4yrs
> Rooster- 4yrs( June)
> Oliver-4yrs(June)
> Duke- 5yrs
> Gator-7yrs??
> Abe-???


Abe - 6 yrs 5 months


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## chewy

u should do two braces. one for fun and one that is serious. Saturday the fun Sunday the serious. 


mysignature http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1295


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## k9wernet

chewy said:


> u should do two braces. one for fun and one that is serious. Saturday the fun Sunday the serious.
> 
> 
> mysignature http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1295


Howabout one for dogs with formal training/test/trial experience and once for dogs without (hunting dogs).

KW


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## Rugergundog

Why not just call it a MS fun trial and ellimintat the PL vs Pointer and mix it all up...as they are all pointing dogs.

Just my two cents.


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## Mr. Botek

k9wernet said:


> Howabout one for dogs with formal training/test/trial experience and once for dogs without (hunting dogs).
> 
> KW


You going to put skirts on them dogs Kevin? LOL! 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## chewy

Rugergundog said:


> Why not just call it a MS fun trial and ellimintat the PL vs Pointer and mix it all up...as they are all pointing dogs.
> 
> Just my two cents.


because then u get people posting all over the Internet how the pointing labs beat the pointers. to brag it needs to be at an equal level. those are my four cents 


mysignature http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1295


----------



## Shotgun Kennel

bwright27 said:


> Thanks to Crosswind and all the traditional pointing breeds guys for letting us play. We really hope that this will be a small step towards other formal organizations being as open-minded and courageous. Thanks to the judges and bird handlers for a great job. We had a great time. I guess there is truth to the old adage, "every dog has his day".


You could always run your dogs in VHDF tests and it is encouraged but as of right now I don't think and PL's have done so. I think you would like it and do well.


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## k9wernet

Mr. Botek said:


> You going to put skirts on them dogs Kevin? LOL!


They make that distinction in coverdog and RGS trials. Seems like if the trial is going to mean anything you wouldn't put a bunch of meat dogs up against a pro's whole string.

I didn't participate and I've run... what? maybe 5 "fun" trials in my life. Just trying to stir up trouble.

KW


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## crosswind

Im am not opposed to making changes to this format. If that is what the majority of the participants can agree on.
Random thoughts:

How about this: If you are a pro you will be drawn out against another pro.

No pros handling multable client dogs, if he chooses to run they must run their own dog/dogs.

Put a limit on the amount of dogs one individaul can enter. That leaves room for more entrants. Perhaps maximum of two dogs???


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## crosswind

Mike McDonald said:


> Before you get this set up can we have another debate about the relative merits of anything? I'm bored. mac


 Mike, are you bored enough to enter ?:lol:


----------

