# Indians' hunting rights at issue



## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Indians' hunting rights at issue 
Cox: Tribes should go by same rules as others 

The state's attorney general will ask a federal judge today to make several American-Indian tribes in northern Michigan play by the same hunting and fishing rules as non-Indians -- before someone gets hurt. 

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/nhunt17_20030917.htm


----------



## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

I certainly hope that Judge Enslen is less liberal than he has been in the past. This is one issue that needs to be supported by all of us.


----------



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Is that REPUBLICAN attorney general Mike Cox?


----------



## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

You bet. Give Cox due credit when ever he deserves it.


----------



## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Michigan, Indians clash over hunting rights - 9/28/03 
State wants to update treaty to tighten rules; tribes say deal is deal

WALLOON LAKE -- You may have thought conflict between Indians and settlers was long over, but there are new fears of confrontation in Michigan's north country. At issue is the highly emotional topic of hunting, fishing and gathering rights granted to five tribes under a 167-year-old treaty. Michigan Attorney General Mike Cox, fearing clashes between Indians and state-licensed hunters and anglers, says it's time to bring those guarantees into alignment with the modern world. 

http://www.detnews.com/2003/outdoors/0309/28/a01-282927.htm


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

that's exactly what Article 13 of the 1836 Treaty of Washington says, and the tribes clearly understood it when they signed that treaty...the entire treaty is available on the web if anyone is interested in reading it.

But is anyone? I ran two articles on this subject this summer in MON, and got virtually NO reaction to it at all...did you know the tribes consider the coho a roughfish, and place no limits or bag seasons on them?

Did you know the GT Band is considering holding their own elk season? Did you know the Bay Mills and Soo tribes already have rules in place for hunting moose and for all we know are out there hunting moose right now? 

Do you know they can take TWO turkeys every spring and hold a fall season whether we have one or not?

Did you know they can harvest sturgeon, coaster brook trout, and yes, even grayling (if there's any left in Michigan anywhere)-and these are modern rules, folks, not rules made up in the 1800's.

Is it possible that the cormorants are not ENTIRELY responsible for the demise of northern Lake Michigan and Lake Huron perch populations?

The tribes only report what they want to when it comes to their hunting harvests-there is no mandatory reporting system in place either for any of the tribes or as an agreement between the tribes and the federal government like the 2000 agreement for commercial tribal fishing requires...so that 100 deer could be 1000, for all we know, and could be one of the reasons why you can never find any deer around any Indian settlements, like Peshawbetown in Suttons Bay...or in most of Leelanau & GT County, for that matter. 

The harvest is inconsequential, the tribes say...really, well, there's approximately 45,000 tribal members in the five tribes alone...not counting the downstate Mt. Pleasant and Bay City tribes, which were not part of the 1836 treaty. I would hazard a guess that approximately 2/3 of those people are capable of hunting and fishing. That's what, 35,000 people, all of whom are far more skilled as hunters and anglers than 99% of us?

And that doesn't have an effect? How do we know, since we don't know what they're doing??

Did you know that their waterfowl season lasts until late January for ducks, and that their goose season is practically unlimited? Did you know the USFWS is already estimating the tribal harvest (estimating because they can only guess, they really have no idea) and takes that into account BEFORE our waterfowl seasons are set?? 

But no one notices...ok...I guess as long as the Indians offer us the casinos where we can all happily spend our children's inheritance, we don't care.

People tell me it's politically incorrect these days to take offense at what the tribes are doing, because they were persecuted-well, I'm sorry, so were my people, who were poor immigrant shanty Irish...so were the Poles, the Italians, the Chinese, and most of all, the blacks, not to mention two or three dozen other ethnic cultures....so should we just throw away all the rules and let anyone whose heritage isn't completely WASP do whatever they want because they were persecuted?

Think about it...then you'll tell me, well, there's nothing I can do...YES there is...you can be heard, because believe me, people are listening...don't get involved, don't have your voice heard, and one day, when you see a tribal member taking a buck in August from the state land next to YOUR property, you'll know why he was able to do that. 

Want to know what's next-the right to hunt on ALL property within the ceded treaty lands area, not just tribal lands, and not just state and federal lands-ALL property, including yours. The ceded treaty lands area is MOST of the northern Lower Peninsula (running from Ludington northeast on a diagonal to Alpena) and ALL of the UP. There have already been some incidents of this occurring, I know of several, and there's probably been a whole lot more than that.

The tribes in Minnesota are now allowed to spear a large quota of walleye from Minnesota's most popular walleye lake-Mille Lacs. What if that is allowed on Houghton Lake, Portage Lake, Little Bay de Nocs...it could, and sooner than you think...

In America, we should ALL hunt and fish under the same rules...one nation indivisible, with liberty and JUSTICE for all...


----------



## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

I agree with you 1000% Linda.....Why everyone, by everyone I mean the all levels of government, tips toes around these issues with these tribes is frustrating. So there's a treaty, ignore it until it's brought into the 21st century. This is not 1836 any longer, and these people do not need special rights to feed or cloth their families. 

At any time now this thread will be shut down due to this being a borderline topic. It's the one thing on this site that I disagree with.


----------



## YPSIFLY (Feb 13, 2001)

I agree that everyone should be held to the same rules. Its time we ripped up the treaties.


----------



## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Me too. There is no need to grant unlimited harvesting rights to any group. I don't want to hear any of that "Cultural Identity" crap either. Tribes seem to have no problem giving up their cultural identity long enough to build a bunch of casinos.


----------



## Eastern Yooper (Nov 12, 2000)

I would be nice to see this settled once and for all, and for everyone to play by the same set of rules.

We have a lot of 'miracle indians' living up here that have to stay indoors all spring , summer, and early fall.... because if they were to get bit by a mosquito, it would probably suck all the indian blood out of them.

The one leverage the state has is on those casinos... but unfortunately, the tribes seem to have alot of politicians in their pocket.

Its one thing if they want to do their thing on reservations..... but on public land? Nah.

Unfortunately for Michigan, federal precedent has already been set re: off-reservation fishing & hunting in other states like Wisconsin.

As far as the topic, I don't think its inflammatory or too touchy. This is a very legitimate outdoor concern. Its only when the bigoted comments and racist generalizations start flying that people get offended.


----------



## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

> We have a lot of 'miracle indians' living up here that have to stay indoors all spring , summer, and early fall.... because if they were to get bit by a mosquito, it would probably suck all the indian blood out of them.


ROFLAMO!!!!!!! My wife thinks I went batty, when I let out a hoot.


----------



## flyrod4steelhead (Mar 14, 2002)

Just like anything else; It take's one person to give the rest of us native americans a bad name. It's a pain the @$$. I hear it all the time, and it really disgust me.


----------



## Steely-Head (Dec 2, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Eastern Yooper _
> *I would be nice to see this settled once and for all, and for everyone to play by the same set of rules.
> 
> We have a lot of 'miracle indians' living up here that have to stay indoors all spring , summer, and early fall.... because if they were to get bit by a mosquito, it would probably suck all the indian blood out of them. *



First paragraph: I agree 100%

Second paragraph: Still laughing!!! 

My roomates two years ago were from Sault Ste. Marie, and said years ago the indians were shunned and looked down upon. Then they passed some legislation about special rights and privileges, and they said at that point everyone and thier brother claimed to be an indian, even if it was on their mother's mother's cousin's brother's fathers side......


----------



## Eastern Yooper (Nov 12, 2000)

Well, I was indian long before it became popular. Confident people don't use their race, gender, nationality, etc. as a crutch, or to place blame when things don't go right.

I learned a long time ago that life is too short to dwell on other people's misconceptions and prejudices. Rarely is anyone gonna change the way another person thinks about something.

The thing about this treaty business, is that Frank Kelley and a host of other states couldn't beat the tribes. Time and again its been reaffirmed by the US Supreme Court.

Yet Mike Cox thinks he can do it? I tip my hat to him for trying, but I think in the process he's gonna breed substantial animosity and ultimately waste taxpayer dollars in a prolonged leagl dog & pony show.


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

court case...that the DNR may be opening a can of worms they can't close, and the end result may be that the federal judge gives the tribes inland hunting and fishing rights affirmation-up until now, as far as I can tell, the tribes have been subtle about their liberal hunting and fishing, but push their buttons, and those of their very good attorneys, and we may end up even worse off...

This one will be interesting to watch. I am all in favor of allowing the tribes extended seasons and bag limits for subsistence if they are dependent upon our natural resources for existence. But they're not. This is not 1836. 

We took their land, people say. Yes, and we've paid for it many, many, many times over, and are continuing to pay for it every day. All sorts of social welfare programs, federal payments, college tuition, you name it. Over and above the casinos and gill net allowances.


----------



## Mags (Apr 10, 2002)

It's just "affirmative action," Native American style!   What else is new? Just another of pile of crock trying to be jammed down everybody elses throats, again.


----------



## blee (Aug 28, 2003)

You should know that these 5 tribes are not asking for anything new, just want to honor the treaty in place that has worked fine for many years. there was never a game management problem before people decided to tell these people how when and where they can hunt fish and gather.

ps: be careful one of the fish you catch may be from a fish stocking program the tribes have had in place for years


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

they're already "honoring" the treaty that's been in place for years. Has it worked "fine" since, say, World War II? Since most tribal members joined the modern world? That's the question, and a lot of people say no, it hasn't. There is no game management problem as far as the tribes are concerned, and no one is telling them how to or where to hunt, fish, or gather-THAT'S THE PROBLEM-they can do ANYTHING they want!!

As for their fish stocking programs, yes, they stock a handful of walleye and perch, primarily in lakes on tribal lands, but according to anyone you ask except the tribes, it's a negligible amount. Especially when you compare that to the lake trout stocking program that the USFWS has, about 80% of which benefits the tribes' commercial fishing (as well as Canada), not to mention the MILLIONS spent yearly on lamprey prevention programs. 


Sorry, but they've got a long way to go to do enough fish stocking for it to have any kind of impact on anyone's sport except their own.


----------



## blee (Aug 28, 2003)

this always becomes a big argument with people saying things that are not true and they know nothing about but i will tell you this linda I am a member of the sault st marie tribe of chippewa indians and I applied for a hunting permit this year and was denied. it is a lottery system. so it is not some kind of free for all blood sport that alot of non indians would like to believe. there are regulations in place that are similar to what the dnr has, just becouse a few restrictions are different people go nuts.


----------



## flyrod4steelhead (Mar 14, 2002)

> they can do ANYTHING they want!!


We can??? Certain place's maybe.

I am feeling a little OFFENDED


----------



## captdenny (Jan 24, 2003)

I remember sitting in a meeting with the fish chief (DNR) a few years back. We were **** chatting about the up coming tribal fishing agreement and a comment was made that you have seen nothing yet. Wait until the inland hunting rights become a issue. Yes, that was about 5 years ago and the state knew it was only time until the lid would start to blow. They we worried about the rights of tribes hunting on all lands (public and private) in the 1836 treaty. Linda has it about as right as it gets.


----------



## Sailor (Jan 2, 2002)

Well-- whether you folks like it or not the Indians have nine very powerful people on their side. It wouldn't hurt if we also tried to remember that in return for those hunting, fishing and gathering rights the"Richest Place on Earth"
MICHIGAN was taken in trade. The fur, White Pine,
copper,iron, sand and gravel, limestone,salt,oil and gas,water etc.. Hell of a deal! Now that we've
used up and/or poluted all of our booty we want the string of beads back! And while we are tearing
up old yellow documents and welching don't forget
what's left of the Bill of Rights.


----------



## flyrod4steelhead (Mar 14, 2002)

IMO, I think that POLITICIANS have nothing better to do!! Linda, you say that... 



> There is no game management problem as far as the tribes are concerned, and no one is telling them how to or where to hunt, fish, or gather


If the last part of this is true, then why are they (politicians and such) argueing this? I beleive that changing law's for native american's or as someone else put it "RIP UP THE TREATIES" is telling them when, where, how they can hunt and fish.

Leave it alone........................


----------



## Steely-Head (Dec 2, 2001)

I agree with Linda G in regards to fish stocking. The indian stocking is negligible to say the least compared to DNR stocking (PUBLIC FUNDED).


----------



## Steely-Head (Dec 2, 2001)

I view this issue as similar to those black groups that are trying to get reparations for slavery. Was slavery a terrible black mark on the history of our nation? Yes. Was it wrong? Yes. Do the descendants of those slaves deserve to get money?? NO! What happened 140 years ago to your great-great-great-great grandfather does not entitle you to money reparations from a government made up of people who, living today, had NOTHING TO DO with enslaving your ancestors. It makes no sense to me. And this Indian issue is the same thing, only worse. Did the Indians get the raw end of the deal? Yes. But those of us alive today should not be punished for the acts of a government whose last member died over 100 years ago. And besides, half the people claiming these Indian rights have 1/4 or less Indian blood in them in the first place. I dont understand it. They have a majority of white blood in them, and yet they use the minority to their advantage? The fishing and hunting resources in Michigan are maintained primarily with PUBLIC funds. Everyone should be playing by the same rules. This is my view. I may have lost a view friends by stating it, but whatever, it needed to be said. See you all after this thread is closed.


----------



## flyrod4steelhead (Mar 14, 2002)

YEAH, CLOSE THE THREAD. This is all a bunch of B-S anyway's.


----------



## huntingfool43 (Mar 16, 2002)

Steely-Head 


I agree with your last post 100%. I for one am sick and tired of paying for something that took place long before I was alive.


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Blee-if there is a lottery for ALL of the Soo tribe's hunting seasons, even species like small game and waterfowl, that is news to me...and I made every effort to find out as a journalist, believe me. For weeks I made calls to an assortment of tribal officials-not one from the Soo tribe would ever talk to me at all. 

Perhaps that is part of the problem-a lack of communication and understanding. If the seasons are restricted, or there is anything more to them than what I was able to find out from the tribal constitutions which are on the Internet, than it would behoove the tribes to let the general public know that. But they don't-instead, all anyone, including the MI DNR and USFWS, finds is a wall of silence. 

Perhaps if there were some communication there would be more understanding.

Flyrod-your request to close the thread is a prime example of the tribes' refusal to communicate. A lack of communication and cooperation is EXACTLY what causes strife between the tribes and the rest of the people of the state of Michigan.

If we are wrong, tell us, and back it up with the written tribal law, and accurate harvest quotas.

According to the laws of the 5 tribes, with a tribal hunting license you can supercede the laws of the state of Michigan. That may not be "anything you want"-perhaps that was a poor choice of words-but compared to the laws of the state of Michigan, a lot of people would see it that way. Especially when tribal hunting seasons begin a month or more ahead of the rest of the state, and last FAR longer than ours...the only exception that I am aware of to this is the Little River band, which has hunting seasons exactly like ours. 

They are also pretty involved in much needed research that the MI DNR simply doesn't have the money for. They publicize it, and that's a good thing...it makes for a better understanding. The rest of the tribes won't say a word about anything they're doing, even if it's very much needed and positive research.


----------



## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

I've always questioned the politically correct term Native American. Hmmm, lets see. The Native American with privileges today are ones that are alive with descendants to the tribe that murdered, displaced, or screwed the tribe before them (remember the Detroit News article series). Sound familiar? Should all descendants back to the apeman be natives? The ancestral Indians migrated to mainland America across the islands from Russia and early man before that migrated from Africa. My neighbors came from Holland.

Are you a "Native American"? I'm native American. I was born in America, my father was born in America, my grandfather was born in America, and I'm sure as heck not Chinese, but I did marry a descendant of a Hollander.


----------



## Steely-Head (Dec 2, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Linda G. _
> *
> According to the laws of the 5 tribes, with a tribal hunting license you can supercede the laws of the state of Michigan. That may not be "anything you want"-perhaps that was a poor choice of words-but compared to the laws of the state of Michigan, a lot of people would see it that way. Especially when tribal hunting seasons begin a month or more ahead of the rest of the state, and last FAR longer than ours... *


Well put.


----------



## flyrod4steelhead (Mar 14, 2002)

Linda,

Maybe that is a hint that they want thing's left like are, did anyone ever think of that??? Doubt it!!! What is wrong with the laws/rules for hunting and fishing for Native American's? What, is everyone else mad because they (indians) get to take a few more animals than the WHITES do? Big deal. For fishing, last time I heard, their is special water's for them "not" needing a fishing license.

I just see this post as a big slam against Native American's.


----------



## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

Thanks for the words of wisdom. 

I have not seen it put any better. 

I have no beef with the Indians or any other ethnic group. My concern is with the blind officials who have allowed this to go on long after it should have been stopped. 

Let's face it every ethnic group wants to be treated the same when it comes to other matters like education, jobs, etc. so why not here.

If the out come is they can hunt and fish any time or way they want, I have a good mind to (not rape the land as my concience would not allow this) but may hunt and fish on the private property that I use and not buy any licenses. After all we are all created equal, aren't we? 

Linda, do I know you? I believe we participated in a fish shock survey on the Little Manistee a few years ago. If it was you who was there, I was the one who grabbed you by the waded straps as you were going in deep.

I think it was you.

See ya
Dave McIntire


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I won't even comment on flyrod's latest post-it speaks for itself, other than to say, Flyrod, if we're wrong, prove it. But don't try to accuse any of us of racism. That isn't at ALL what this is about, and it's a tactic way too frequently used. 


Dryfly-nope, that wasn't me, much as I would have liked to see a shocking survey on the Little Manistee done, I never have.

Maybe that was Jan Fenske from MI DNR-I have been told that she and I resemble each other.


----------



## flyrod4steelhead (Mar 14, 2002)

Their was no accusation of Rascim!!


----------



## Steely-Head (Dec 2, 2001)

> _Originally posted by flyrod4steelhead _
> *
> What, is everyone else mad because they (indians) get to take a few more animals than the WHITES do?
> *



You got it!! And then you say "big deal." Some people wonder why this issue is so hot.

And there was an accusation of racism Dale. When you say you claim that "this whole post is a slam on Native Americans" you imply that you think people are being racsist, which I dont see happening in this thread. I see upset people expressing their opinions.


----------



## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

I do not want anyone accusing me of that!

I believe on being fair and will go out of my way to make it happen. 

It is not what is happening now (even though it is not the same rules for all of us AMERICANS). I'm afraid of what it might develop in the future.

I used to fish a nice lake in Canada each year for good Walleyes. 
The Indians found some loop hole in the regulations and were allowed to, when ever they want, string nets across the river near the lake and wipe out every spawning fish. 

I promise you, I do not care who is doing this, my relatives, Indians, the Russians, or what ever. IT IS JUST NOT RIGHT!

I do not agree with what the White man did to the buffalos years ago when they were wiped out. IT ALSO WAS NOT RIGHT!

Let's keep the race issue out of this discussion and look at the facts and realism.

Established management practices need to be followed by all.


----------



## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

The person I was talking about was a young woman who was a reporter for a news paper. Maybe it was the Manistee paper.


----------



## Eastern Yooper (Nov 12, 2000)

Linda, perhaps you might post your credentials ie: biology degrees, job experiences, government research, legal background, and so forth that has you so enlightened on this topic.

Yeah OK, I know you're an outdoor writer for MON, MUCC, and W&WN. I would think that as a journalist, you have a moral & ethical responsibility to report the facts. Is that what you're trying to do here (educate the public) ..... or are you simply hell-bent on trying to dominate this topic with your complaining?

Just how much do you truly undertand the treaties, the canons, the decrees, TAC, subsistence vs. commercial, target and non-target species, and so on? I happen to know quite a bit: My father, Al Picotte, was the US Government official that presided over the explosive treaty fishing issues of the early '80s. He sat-in and participated on many joint DNR & tribal meetings, did court appearances, and so forth. He helped orchastrate the 1985 consent decree. This is a highly complex, complicated legal issue and I find it a bit amusing that an outdoor columnist seems to know all the answers here.

The more you post, the more your ignorance is showing thru. For instance, I suggest you _do some research_ into tribal fish stocking programs before you dismiss them as negligable: Both Bay Mills & the Sault tribe have numerous hatchery projects and they release *millions* of trout, walleye, and salmon on an annual basis.

Its funny how some folks 'hear' how bad things are relations-wise up here: The plain truth is that very, very few indians hunt _or_ subsistence fish. Even fewer commerical fish. I'd wager that more deer get killed in this county by cars than by tribal hunters. There are no incidents of violence, or racial intimidation, or threats. Hell, we live, work, & worship together, our children attend the same schools, and we are neighbors. People are very tolerant of one another and we co-exist quite nicely, thank you. But judging by your posts, you seem to think there are casino busloads full of armed indians just waiting to storm private property and decimate entire game populations.

Puh-LEEEEZE!

If you wanna talk about destruction lets talk about why there are lampreys, zebra mussels, an ever-growing assortment of exotics like gobies and asian carp, and rampant pollution in the great lakes. The lake freighters destroy huge areas of fish spawning grounds, recently compounded by low water levels. Can't blame none of those on the tribes. 

I'm not obtuse enough to blindly defend the tribes, I don't agree with off-reservation treay rights, I don't like casinos, and I'm not gonna whine about what happened 200+ years ago. But on the same token, I'm not gonna sit idly-by while certain people mislead and falsely inform the public. 

Linda, I've seen you bemoan several times now that 'noone responds' to your phone calls and inquiries. Last winter/spring you were griping in posts here how a higher-up in the DNR wouldn't return your calls, even though you'd been trying for a week. You even mentioned how Sharp & Richey had been given interviews.... but not you. Just in this thread you whined that noone on _your own forum_ replied to this topic. Now you've made mention that the tribes won't return your calls regarding treaty issues.

Hmmmmm..... aren't you starting to see a pattern emerge? Perhaps people/organizations don't wanna give you interviews because they have grown tired of you believing and printing only what what you want to while ignoring the rest. Here's a suggestion: Do yourself, this forum, and the outdoor publications you write for a service: Know your _facts_ so that you might properly be informed *before* you make something public. You providing a link to the treaty, or quoting the US Constitution, is pretty lame. The rest is just your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to. But be aware that your articles have the ability to inform and educate with impartiality.... or to inflame and divide with biased half-truths.

When this treaty thing is all done, I suspect that neither the tribes nor the state will walk away with what they had originally wanted. I would hope that reasonable people, working together, will be able to get this amiably resolved.


----------



## Steely-Head (Dec 2, 2001)

Millions can still be considered a negligible amount. Do you have any idea how many fish the DNR stocks yearly??????? The issue still remains that the Indians can harvest unrestricted, without having to obey MDNR rules. Do you think all the fish the Indians catch are ones they've stocked? No! You can turn that around and say "Do you think all the fish white people catch are planted by the MDNR?" No, but the VAST majority are. The fact that the indians stock some fish does not mean they should get to take all they want from the whole.

This is my opinion.


----------



## Eastern Yooper (Nov 12, 2000)

Steely, no the tribes cannot simply just harvest 'anything they want' unrestricted.

Do a little research and you'll find its much more complex and complicated than you think. There is something known as the 'Total Allowable Catch' (TAC) for the state. And the state is divided into regions. 

Say a certain region can sustain an overall whitefish harvest of 1 million pounds and still allow for adequate reproduction. This 1 million pounds is divied-up between the state and the tribes. The tribes are allowed no more than their share of the TAC.

Worth mentioning is that each species has its own TAC. And certain species are closed to commercial fishing, period. Indian subsistence fishing is also governed by TAC, and highly regulated, I might add.

Saying or thinking that the indians can 'do whatever, whenever, and wherever' is a false misnomer. It is simply not true. 

The tribes have numerous fisheries biologists who work closely in conjunction with the MDNR. Bay Mills & Sault Tribe have planted millions upon millions of walleye in the St. Mary's River. Walleye are not commercially fished by the tribes, I might add. But according to Linda, the indians only stock fish in inland lakes to benefit themselves.

The tribes have also sponsored several _]sport_ tournaments in the region, in additon to working with local and regional sportsmans groups. They are working hard to foster & maintain good relationships.

I suggest people post with facts, as opposed to sheer emotion. As they say: Ignorance is bliss.


----------

