# Messed up Deer Management



## pporonto (Oct 8, 2003)

Every year this subject comes up with my Best Friend and I. His parents own 80 acres in Mio. I started hunting there when I was 18 and hunted there for about 12 years. His Dad, who owns the property had a rule. We were not allowed to shoot does. Reason: Does are females, and females reproduce, and then if we shoot those does we would have less deer.... (figures, in the early days I had 10 does at a time eating out of my bait piles) However, we were allowed to shoot all the spikes and 4pts that we saw. Even saw a few button bucks taken off of the property. To make matters worse, he had a guy come in and clear cut all the mature oaks so now there are no acorns. 
I have been hunting with another friend on the west side of the state for 4 years now. I see deer up the wazooo. I hunt on Federal Land DMU 045. My friend in mio..... has seen a total of 3 deer in 3 years. I invited him to join us on the west side this year and he refuses. Pride will get you no where!!!:sad: 

Just venting.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Ahh, obsolete, er, I mean traditional deer management.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Um, what makes you think that traditional deer management does not include harvesting does? Last time I looked Michigan, under TDM, has been issueing an awful lot of antlerless permits every year and Michigan hunters have certainly been shooting them. I guess I missed the chapter about clear cutting food sources in the TDM handbook, also.  

Kind of funny too that if you only hunt firearms in DMU 045 you can't shoot any does either, as there have not been public land antlerless permits available in 045 for several years. Darn few private land antlerless permits too, so the policy in this QDM experimental DMU are pretty similar to the conditions your friends dad imposed.
__________________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Deer Management Strategies 

In general, there are four primary deer management strategies: 

Maximum population management 
Maximum harvest management 
Quality deer management 
Trophy deer management 

While these strategies are not mutually exclusive, each differs in its goals and intensity of management. Because the maximum population approach and maximum harvest approach are very similar, they have been combined into traditional deer management for the purposes of this guide. 

Traditional Deer Management
Under traditional deer management, bucks of any age or antler quality may be harvested and antlerless deer harvest is regulated to produce an abundant deer herd and/or to maximize total buck harvest. Under this approach, most bucks harvested are yearlings (1.5 years old), with few bucks surviving beyond their second year. 

This management approach is typically the least intensive and sometimes allows herds to increase to levels that can damage the habitat. Depending on herd productivity and the intensity of buck harvest, the sex ratio often becomes heavily skewed in favor of females. In some herds, particularly those where substantial buck harvest occurs before the rut, this imbalance may result in some does not breeding during their first estrous (heat) period, or perhaps delay their first estrus. If does do not conceive during their first estrus, the next breeding opportunity will not occur until 28-30 days later. The doe's fawns will be born one month later for each cycle missed. Later-born fawns have lower survival rates, lower weaning weights, and poorer antler development as yearlings than fawns born at the appropriate time of year. 

Quality Deer Management
Quality deer management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and resource managers in a common goal of producing healthy deer herds with balanced adult sex ratios and age structures. This approach typically involves protecting young bucks while harvesting an appropriate number of female deer to maintain herds within existing environmental and social constraints. A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding bestows an ethical obligation on the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional deer management. 

Practicing QDM produces many benefits. Typically, the sex ratio becomes more balanced and the number (or proportion) of bucks in the older age classes increases. Often, more mature bucks are available for breeding, resulting in less stress on yearling bucks and an earlier, more-defined rut. In some cases, deer health and body weights improve due to improved habitat conditions, which also benefit many other wildlife species. The lower deer density also helps reduce crop damage and deer/vehicle collisions. 

One obvious benefit is the increased presence of mature bucks and the exhilaration of observing their behavior. Many landowners and hunters receive great satisfaction from the increased involvement with their deer herd that QDM offers.
The benefits of QDM do not come without costs. Typically, large tracts of land are required to achieve maximum results. While defining a minimum size is difficult, 600-1,000 acres is a reasonable starting point in most areas. While QDM can be successful on smaller areas, cooperation with hunters on neighboring properties and unique management practices are required. 

Participants must take an active role in management and maintain accurate harvest records to assess management progress and fine-tune management strategies. Harvest restrictions and rules, especially for young bucks, must be implemented and enforced. Where high deer populations already exist, initial QDM restrictions generally result in a reduced total buck harvest and an increased doe harvest. As such, QDM often requires a change in hunting practices and a new mindset. 

Trophy Deer Management
QDM often is confused with trophy deer management. While the two approaches share several objectives, they also differ in many ways. Under trophy deer management, fully mature bucks with high-scoring antlers are the primary focus. Whitetail bucks typically attain maximum antler size between 5.5 and 8.5 years of age. 

Producing bucks of this age and antler quality requires many ingredients not available to most hunters. Because some adult bucks have home ranges of 2,000 acres or more, large tracts of land, often 5,000 acres or more, are required. Because buck home ranges are not uniform in shape and size, few adult bucks live their entire lives on a single property, even on 5,000 acres. 

The ability to control hunting pressure is paramount, especially on promising 2.5-, 3.5- and 4.5-year-old bucks. This requires considerable field-judging skill and self-control. Unless the herd is enclosed and supplementally fed, deer density must be kept low to allow optimum nutrition so bucks can maximize antler potential. This often involves aggressive doe harvests (even higher than under QDM) and intensive habitat management. Therefore, while trophy deer management is a biologically sound approach, it is not feasible in many areas and the associated costs outweigh the benefits for most hunters. 


Quality Deer
Management Association
PO Box 160
Bogart, GA 30622
1-800-209-DEER (3337) 


© 2003, QDMA. All Rights Reserved. site designed by Red Clay Interactive 

http://www.qdma.com/qdm/deer-mgmt-strat.asp


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Too many deer for too many years really hurt the habitat in NE Michigan. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing!

I'm pretty hard on the does at my camp. I want to keep the deer numbers at reasonable levels. Lower deer numbers keep productivity higher with more twin births. More fawn production means introducing more bucks into the herd. Holding off on shooting bucks till they're older helps with the buck to doe ratio and less stress during the rut. Less rut related stress may help them make it through the winter. Sometimes less is more.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Bob, whats your point? Even if you accept the above definition of TDM, as taken from the QDMA (kind of like asking Karl Marx to describe the virtues of Capitalism) :lol: it made no mention of not harvesting antlerless deer. 

The original poster alluded to a situation where a land owners choice of management style resulted in there being few or no deer on his property. You attributed this to his practicing TDM. This is simply inaccurate. TDM allows for plenty of does as well as bucks to be harvested. It is about maximum sustainable yield that creates a maximum number of opportunities for sportsmen to harvest deer. Notice I said sustainable. The QDMA likes to imply that TDM overpopulates the herd and that there is mass starvation as a result. Ive asked this before but please point out where in Michigan, under TDM, there are deer starving from lack of habitat.

The original post indicated that the property is located in Mio. Do you think that maybe the fact that it is located in the heart of the TB area and as a result was subjected to the deer eradication program that the DNR implemented to stop the spread of TB, might have had something to do with the decrease in the number of deer that are seen on that property? This program was not TDM, by any means.

If the decrease was primarily due to TDM, as you imply, then the herd in Michigan would be decreasing steadily every year. Heck, if this was true, after 50 years of TDM, Id be surprised if there were any deer left in Michigan. The fact is that herd levels under TDM have remained relatively stable despite the best efforts of the DNR to reduce the numbers. 

If you are going to bash TDM about the only legitimate criticism is that it does not produce as many older, large bodied or large racked bucks as QDM does. If that is what you want to change in the herd, fine, I'm all for the voluntary practice of QDM on private land. But at least let's be accurate when talking about what impact each mangement style has on the herd and on the hunting experience.

Of course once they let those darn crossbow hunters in the door they will probably wipe out the deer herd anyway, and it will all be moot.  
_________________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Under TDM, we found so many dead deer every Spring that it was amazing. We found numberous dead deer from starvation every Spring. Some years 50-60 dead deer all grouped together in our pines. But there were so many others to take their place, it didn't seem to matter on sightings. And our fix was to shoot 1 or 2 does with the old "antlerless draw" and to shoot 10-15 bucks to make sure we maximized our TDM.
I lived most of my life under TDM, I know it when I see it. TDM involves the theory of "if you shoot a doe, you killed 3 deer". Our racks have quadrupled in size after we started QDM in just 5 years and we no longer find starved deer in the Spring. In fact, not a single one.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Your saying you would find 50-60 dead deer every year on your property? In Baldwin? If that was true throughout the whole county it would equate to thousands of dead deer. I have not heard of a massive die off in that part of Michigan before.

I have hunted on our property for 20 years in Lake Co. and in the worst winters I may have seen 1 or 2 deer dead in the spring. I doubt the ones that I saw died of starvation, though. I've found some that may have been hit by cars, gutshot by poachers or died of natural causes but I doubt they starved. 

About the only part of Michigan that I have heard of massive winterkill is in certain areas of the UP and that is more a result of severe weather and not the size of the herd. UP winterkill is going to occur under TDM, QDM or Trophy Management, regardless.

I would agree that a lot of old timers had an aversion to killing does but that is a tradition that was passed on and was not part of TDM. We are talking about Management philosophies not hunting traditions. TDM manages the herd for maximum sustainable yield. Shooting does has been part of the management program adopted by the DNR for over 30 years now in Michigan. 
How many antlerless permits have been sold in the past twenty years, 5 or 6 million? How many bow hunters that could care less about QDM use their combo tag to take a doe or two every year? That all occurs under TDM so I'm sorry but I'm not buying the argument that TDM promotes not killing does.
______________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I'm in Newaygo, not Lake. In the 1980's the Detroit News had an article about the section 2 miles away from us and it claimed to have one of the highest deer densities in the state at near 100 deer. We didn't see 20-60 deer a day for no reason. 
On top of it, our pines were where the deer wintered. 
The difference we're seeing now compared to our old TDM days at our club is so profound, that any further discussions about semantics does not apply. It's like comparing the Civil War to the Space Race. Anyhow, best of luck with whatever type of management you choose and good hunting.


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## pporonto (Oct 8, 2003)

> Kind of funny too that if you only hunt firearms in DMU 045 you can't shoot any does either, as there have not been public land antlerless permits available in 045 for several years.


Point taken except that I have never hunted Rifle in that area, only bow and the rules that my friends dad imposed were during Bow Season. Is the QDM used in DMU 045 working? Time will tell. My friend who lives in the area year round and scouts quite a bit told me that he is seeing more Racks this year than previous. Last bow season we only saw one decent rack in 5 days and saw a ton of spikes and 4 pts. I will take a doe this year if the oppurtunity presents itself since I want some Venison, but I would only shoot a buck if it was decent size, even if the restrictions were not in place.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

It don't matter which management system one supports, you bang you head against the wall no matter what. :lol:


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Yes, time will tell as to whether or not it's working. Unfortunately I've only had my deer cam for a year so I don't have any previous data to compare the buck pictures to. In the last three seasons under mandatory AR's I have yet to see a legal buck during rifle season. I have come to the conclusion that while AR's probably do increase the number of older, larger bucks out there, that it does not equate to seeing more shootable bucks during firearms season. I do think that Ar's will benefit bowhunters and that they will probably see and harvest more bucks. Whether or not the trade off that prevents some hunters from harvesting a deer so that others can harvest a buck with a bigger rack becomes a judgement call.

It would be interesting to see some cumulative harvest data from each year of the AR's in 045. I have not seen any data published anywhere, however.
______________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training


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## Sib (Jan 8, 2003)

This is a case L.O.D.M. Land Owner Deer Management and not a case of tdm vs qdm. Both qdm and tdm embrace doe harvesting. Every bow hunter has the option, and many areas have antlerless available. So even with this state being TDM, the means are there for doe harvesting.

Land owners have rights, including the right to be wrong.  I hunted Mio area about 20 years ago, friend had a cottage and had been in their family for many years. We used to joke about how bad the hunting was back then, hardly any bucks and spikes that might not make the 3" minimum. My friend always thought they had bad genetics in the area. I attributed it to horrible habitat, but I soon stopped hunting the area because it was so poor. He stayed, one of those long traditions things, like your friend. Enjoy the better hunting on the west side. And your friend's family cutting might be a good thing in the long term, I remember the area as being forested, with little browse and food sources, at least the fed land we hunted.


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## Foodplot (Sep 29, 2005)

Just joined and as the locator indicates, don't get to hunt your home state, maybe one of these days, would enjoy all the tradition you guys have. This is a very interesting discussion and alot of it overlaps our states etc. I have immersed myself into the management lifestyle and enjoy alot of the aspects of just doing it, not so much the hunt. Guess that comes with aging. Coupled with deer management is my exposure to hunting my area of Texas. At one time our deer herds were hunted till none survived and had to be restocked in the late 50's. The season opened again in the 60's and I was just old enough to be trusted to hunt and camp out with my friends, about 15 to 16 yrs. of age. Of course we were all Daniel Boone or Crockett, knew all about hunting etc., or least we thought so and had a great time. People look at me funny when I tell them we measured a successful season if we seen a track, thats the God honest truth, just a track. As time progressed and I got to travel to different states and hunt, the herd back home grew. I guess one would say it was managed by TDM, that is, a one buck county and no does. Our logos as hunter was deer,buck,boom no questions asked for more years than I can remember and we had fun. Does were protected for good reason and this has not changed until the introduction of archery hunting etc. So fast forward to the early ninties and present day. The harvest data as done by the biologist showed 80 to 90% of bucks taken were 1.5 yrs of age and younger and 3.5 yrs of age was about 2%. no 4.5 yrs or older except for the occasional one. Added to that was the fact spikes were thought to be inferior and all should be shot on site as the freaks of nature they were thought to be and does continue to be protected. As hunters and landowners views slowly changed coupled with a deer herd explosion. We became aware of the buck to doe ratio. For our area it was running 8 to 1 and after the first two weeks of hunting season probably closer to 15 to 1. This data started changing my mind as well as many others, it was obvious that we had tremendous pressure on the bucks and very little to none on the does. Then came LAMPS program,Managed Land Permits, and just this season a 3 to 4 day doe harvest for the first time since the deer season re-opened in the late 60's. I have to do spotlight surveys, incidental sitings, and several other things and then turn all that into the biologist. We developed a loosely knitted coop and they turn all their data in. Our area is ranch and farm with heavy creek/river bottoms and counting deer is tough and only gives a glimpse of what the population is. What we see is does and more does and a few bucks. 5 yrs. later we are still shooting does but most of us can't bring ourselves to fill all the tags and offering your land/tags for people who say they want to hunt is difficult at best when they find out they can only shoot a doe. Everyone wants to shoot the big buck and we tell them he doesn't exsist in our area of the state, they look at us in disbelief. During all of this management I became hooked on game cameras, just had to have one and use this tool more than anything else. For 6 years I covered every inch of my place and surrounding land, used bait stations etc. and all I ever seen was does, fawns, and 1.5 yr old bucks and a few 2.5 yr.olds, never a mature buck. My friends used these cameras as well with the same results. Finally we succumbed to the fact that it was true, (we all held hope there were a few big ones) no mature deer exsisted. We and the state were gathering the data which was tellling us the facts, we still just couldn't bring ourselves to believe it. Now peoples attitudes are changing, planting more foodplots, corn feeders, protein feeders, etc. shooting does and taking the pressure off the bucks, and changing the laws. Starting next year for the very first time a 13 inch minimum width antler restriction will be put into place and will help protect some of the 2.5 and 3.5 yr old bucks. Doe harvest days will be there for the venison hungery. I guess in the long run we hunters armed with our data will need to manage ourselves with new rules and adapt to what it is telling us because the deer have to adapt to the way we hunt them along with coping with their environment. Management seminars, reading, talking, my own experiences in the field have slowly changed my mind to the fact that the deer hunters in my part of the state have to change the way we hunt. I'm ready to see the the mature buck return to my part of Texas. Now two deer biologist, Kroll and Ken Gee have very convinicing data on why we should not shoot spikes. Times a changing, I guess so shall we. Still a very dynamic and interesting discussion. I have enjoyed it.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

to the site and to our DM forum Foodplot, I hope you'll find lots of interesting discussions and topics here.

Things are a 'little' slow right now as the Bow opener in Michigan just started on Saturday  - more people hunting that manageing right now 

Again welcome and thanks for the input - 

ferg....


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Foodplot...welcome to the site and I enjoyed your post. Too much hunting to do this time of year to get too in-depth, but look forward to seeing posts from you in the future.


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## Foodplot (Sep 29, 2005)

A fellow has to have his priorities, deer hunting first, talk later. Our first major cold front is heading our way this weds. night, hopefully bringing much needed rain and 40 degrees Friday a.m. I think I will join you fellows in spirit and be in my deer stand with bow in hand sat. a.m. I have a bunch of feral hogs dealing me grief, believe I will deal some back!!:evil:


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## Foodplot (Sep 29, 2005)

Just noticed that Coastie dig. Bumped your head to many times on the overhead from all of that shallow water steaming!!:lol:


Ferg said:


> to the site and to our DM forum Foodplot, I hope you'll find lots of interesting discussions and topics here.
> 
> Things are a 'little' slow right now as the Bow opener in Michigan just started on Saturday  - more people hunting that manageing right now
> 
> ...


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Foodplot said:


> Just noticed that Coastie dig. lol:


Coastie dig ????

ferg....


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## Foodplot (Sep 29, 2005)

Ferg you baiting me like a deer to a corn pile??? That signature line in blue with the little yellow laughing face about the Coast Guardand Navy etc. Without checking your bio I will presume you are U.S. Coast Guard. Now for me, I would be retired U.S.Navy


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