# PM salmon video



## fishfray (Jul 30, 2013)

Here's a video I made a few days ago on the pere marquette, where I catch one king salmon in the mouth with a fly, and accidentally snag another. Tell me in the video comments whether I flossed the fish or not, or if I'm a dirty snagger. Thanks


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## fishdip (Dec 29, 2010)

REALLY cool & no your not a violator


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

Nice video ....love the PM...caught my first steelhead there when I was 8 years old. 47 years ago. Your doing nothing wrong...enjoy the fishery. A lot of trollers on this forum will call you out but don't let them bring you down. Fly fishing is an awesome sport and tradition. I have met many of my best friends on the River fly fishing for salmon. Enjoy it and all it will bring you.


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## Honyuk96 (Nov 21, 2014)

First of all, i'd consider yourself very lucky you didn't break your dads rod as the second fish has your line wrapped ( improperly ) around the rod. Secondly, your fair caught fish was taken directly off a spawning redd. So you were in fact fishing an actively spawning hen. As to the bite, it's in the chops so i'd call it fair, as a matter of fact it actually looked like she turned to grab your fly. Now this is jump my opinion, but please leave spawners alone and let them do your thing, some day your kids just might thank you.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Honyuk96 said:


> First of all, i'd consider yourself very lucky you didn't break your dads rod as the second fish has your line wrapped ( improperly ) around the rod. Secondly, your fair caught fish was taken directly off a spawning redd. So you were in fact fishing an actively spawning hen. As to the bite, it's in the chops so i'd call it fair, as a matter of fact it actually looked like she turned to grab your fly. Now this is jump my opinion, but please leave spawners alone and let them do your thing, some day your kids just might thank you.


If that fair-hooked fish which was taken off a spawning redd was caught and released, there is absolutely no harm being done to the fishery. Some of you elitists should cool your jets.


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## flyrodder46 (Dec 31, 2011)

Nice vid, I have fished that stretch of the PM many times and you found some very good holes to probe. You also fished in an ethical and proper manner in my opinion. I do not see where you flossed your fish, and you were fishing the deep run behind the shallow gravel when that second fish turned to your fly. Great job on the fishing and video.

D


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## jd4223 (Feb 12, 2012)

The way the fly is located inside the salmons mouth/corner jaw does not look like it was flossed. If the fly was on the outside of mouth then maybe flossed.


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## Clum (May 11, 2015)

Dude! Prison time for you poacher!!


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## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

Fishfray -

Nice video and thank you for being open minded as well as inviting a discussion about chuck n' duck rigs for salmon, or steelies for that matter. I fished salmon hardcore as a youth. From roughly age 11 until my mid-30s I was all over the salmon scene. I have a lot of experience with flies, skein, bags (floaters and bobber) and lures. To directly answer your question, from what I have seen and experienced, yes, 100% of those salmon were flossed. Is that illegal or immoral? I don't know. Not really to me. They are legally hooked and that counts in my book. I've felt what seemed like a definite hit, set the hook and then watched fish, (both kings in the Betsie and coho in the Platte) sit there and shake their head just like any other fish hooked in the mouth, BUT - my egg sucking leach or floater spawn bag was still visible anywhere from 3-5 feet away from the fish. The flies end up pulling into the mouth, the hook sets and it's fish on from there. After watching this literally dozens of times I'm convinced that is the case for pretty much all chuck n' duck rigs or floater spawn bag rigs. Back in 1998 we had a run of really large coho, like this years, and I had an insane coho day with a floater bag, yet 20 of the 22 yohos I landed one afternoon were clearly caught with a flossing floater. And the 2 that were not flossed were 15" jacks that swallowed the bag and the hook was in the gullet. I've also had many times of tossing egg sucking leeches or egg flies on the Betsie where I feel a hit, see the head shakes, yet, dropper fly (egg) was still visible and about 4 feet from the fish, so clearly the leech which was only 18" above the egg fly was not in the mouth yet - it was my long leader. Again this is what I observed of my own hooked fish and this is why my thinking and approach to salmon evolved. I now feel this same way about any spring steelie fishing in faster water or near any stretch of gravel. For me personally, after this realization the magic was gone and I've steadily lost interest in pursuing salmon, and some steelhead, during their spawning runs. I still have at least one very good buddy that still swear the kings are taking their #10 stone fly. We have very heated and lively late night, beer fueled, debates. Interestingly, his brother, an equally good fisherman, is solidly in the flossing camp now. It's something you need to see yourself and until you do, it's pretty much impossible to convince yourself that what you felt was not a 'hit'. After all, the fish is hooked in the mouth. Often in the outside corner - BUT - *not always.* I've had flossed coho hooked in the inside corner many times. Or occasionally, the top of the beak even.

Like I said - I personally am fine with dudes using the rig, but, I just wish more were honest with themselves about what was going on. Once my eyes were open to the reality, I have steadily gravitated toward trout until October and then switch to steelhead, walleye and perch until my boat gets put away in December. Then it's onto the hardwater for me these days. Thank you again for the opportunity to share my point of view. Have a great season.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Benzie Rover said:


> Fishfray -
> 
> Nice video and thank you for being open minded as well as inviting a discussion about chuck n' duck rigs for salmon, or steelies for that matter. I fished salmon hardcore as a youth. From roughly age 11 until my mid-30s I was all over the salmon scene. I have a lot of experience with flies, skein, bags (floaters and bobber) and lures. To directly answer your question, from what I have seen and experienced, yes, 100% of those salmon were flossed. Is that illegal or immoral? I don't know. Not really to me. They are legally hooked and that counts in my book. I've felt what seemed like a definite hit, set the hook and then watched fish, (both kings in the Betsie and coho in the Platte) sit there and shake their head just like any other fish hooked in the mouth, BUT - my egg sucking leach or floater spawn bag was still visible anywhere from 3-5 feet away from the fish. The flies end up pulling into the mouth, the hook sets and it's fish on from there. After watching this literally dozens of times I'm convinced that is the case for pretty much all chuck n' duck rigs or floater spawn bag rigs. Back in 1998 we had a run of really large coho, like this years, and I had an insane coho day with a floater bag, yet 20 of the 22 yohos I landed one afternoon were clearly caught with a flossing floater. And the 2 that were not flossed were 15" jacks that swallowed the bag and the hook was in the gullet. I've also had many times of tossing egg sucking leeches or egg flies on the Betsie where I feel a hit, see the head shakes, yet, dropper fly (egg) was still visible and about 4 feet from the fish, so clearly the leech which was only 18" above the egg fly was not in the mouth yet - it was my long leader. Again this is what I observed of my own hooked fish and this is why my thinking and approach to salmon evolved. I now feel this same way about any spring steelie fishing in faster water or near any stretch of gravel. For me personally, after this realization the magic was gone and I've steadily lost interest in pursuing salmon, and some steelhead, during their spawning runs. I still have at least one very good buddy that still swear the kings are taking their #10 stone fly. We have very heated and lively late night, beer fueled, debates. Interestingly, his brother, an equally good fisherman, is solidly in the flossing camp now. It's something you need to see yourself and until you do, it's pretty much impossible to convince yourself that what you felt was not a 'hit'. After all, the fish is hooked in the mouth. Often in the outside corner - BUT - *not always.* I've had flossed coho hooked in the inside corner many times. Or occasionally, the top of the beak even.
> 
> Like I said - I personally am fine with dudes using the rig, but, I just wish more were honest with themselves about what was going on. Once my eyes were open to the reality, I have steadily gravitated toward trout until October and then switch to steelhead, walleye and perch until my boat gets put away in December. Then it's onto the hardwater for me these days. Thank you again for the opportunity to share my point of view. Have a great season.


I completely agree. Another way fishfray can test his theory is put a ESL or other fly under a bobber without dragging bottom and see how many "bites" he gets compared to swinging his fly through a pod. I have friends who fish streamers for kings, they tend to say 1 or 2 hookups a day is good numbers. 

As far as flossing, it has been beat to death in these forums. The legality and ethics are a grey area imo. I could care less about guys flossing kings as I try not to concern myself with others when I am on the river. What does bothers me is all the "lifting" or hook setting with double fly rigs that is blatant snagging to anyone with much river experience.

Interestingly, in Alaska flossing sockeye salmon is called "flipping", which is just lining them as they do not bite anything. While red was my least favorite fishing out there, we caught a lot, and I'd say about 1/10 of the fish we flossed were hooked inside the mouth though we knew they weren't taking our beads or yarn fly. 

Good luck the rest of the year. Enjoy it for what it is.


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## fishfray (Jul 30, 2013)

Benzie Rover said:


> Fishfray -
> 
> Nice video and thank you for being open minded as well as inviting a discussion about chuck n' duck rigs for salmon, or steelies for that matter. I fished salmon hardcore as a youth. From roughly age 11 until my mid-30s I was all over the salmon scene. I have a lot of experience with flies, skein, bags (floaters and bobber) and lures. To directly answer your question, from what I have seen and experienced, yes, 100% of those salmon were flossed. Is that illegal or immoral? I don't know. Not really to me. They are legally hooked and that counts in my book. I've felt what seemed like a definite hit, set the hook and then watched fish, (both kings in the Betsie and coho in the Platte) sit there and shake their head just like any other fish hooked in the mouth, BUT - my egg sucking leach or floater spawn bag was still visible anywhere from 3-5 feet away from the fish. The flies end up pulling into the mouth, the hook sets and it's fish on from there. After watching this literally dozens of times I'm convinced that is the case for pretty much all chuck n' duck rigs or floater spawn bag rigs. Back in 1998 we had a run of really large coho, like this years, and I had an insane coho day with a floater bag, yet 20 of the 22 yohos I landed one afternoon were clearly caught with a flossing floater. And the 2 that were not flossed were 15" jacks that swallowed the bag and the hook was in the gullet. I've also had many times of tossing egg sucking leeches or egg flies on the Betsie where I feel a hit, see the head shakes, yet, dropper fly (egg) was still visible and about 4 feet from the fish, so clearly the leech which was only 18" above the egg fly was not in the mouth yet - it was my long leader. Again this is what I observed of my own hooked fish and this is why my thinking and approach to salmon evolved. I now feel this same way about any spring steelie fishing in faster water or near any stretch of gravel. For me personally, after this realization the magic was gone and I've steadily lost interest in pursuing salmon, and some steelhead, during their spawning runs. I still have at least one very good buddy that still swear the kings are taking their #10 stone fly. We have very heated and lively late night, beer fueled, debates. Interestingly, his brother, an equally good fisherman, is solidly in the flossing camp now. It's something you need to see yourself and until you do, it's pretty much impossible to convince yourself that what you felt was not a 'hit'. After all, the fish is hooked in the mouth. Often in the outside corner - BUT - *not always.* I've had flossed coho hooked in the inside corner many times. Or occasionally, the top of the beak even.
> 
> Like I said - I personally am fine with dudes using the rig, but, I just wish more were honest with themselves about what was going on. Once my eyes were open to the reality, I have steadily gravitated toward trout until October and then switch to steelhead, walleye and perch until my boat gets put away in December. Then it's onto the hardwater for me these days. Thank you again for the opportunity to share my point of view. Have a great season.


Thanks for your insight, you clearly have a lot of experience fishing these waters. At this point, I'm 100% aware of the mechanics of flossing, drifting, whatever. Anything on a long leader with weight up the line is subject to become a flossing device. It just fascinates me how insanely effective it is, and how many people do it. I went out today with the goal of doing anything but drifting flies. I ended up catching fish on skein under a bobber , and by stripping/swinging streamers. I'll probably still drift flies when my friends come up and they just want to hook a salmon, but I do realize it's not a legit bite


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## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

fishfray said:


> Thanks for your insight, you clearly have a lot of experience fishing these waters. At this point, I'm 100% aware of the mechanics of flossing, drifting, whatever. Anything on a long leader with weight up the line is subject to become a flossing device. It just fascinates me how insanely effective it is, and how many people do it. I went out today with the goal of doing anything but drifting flies. I ended up catching fish on skein under a bobber , and by stripping/swinging streamers. I'll probably still drift flies when my friends come up and they just want to hook a salmon, but I do realize it's not a legit bite


Fishfray - First of all - I apologize for my ignorance. You specifically asked for flossing comments to be put in the youtube comments section. I am pretty dumb about youtube or social media in general and I thought you meant to have the conversation here. So anyway, my bad on that one. Also, I want to compliment your open mind and your ability to look at all sides. Far too many folks, young and old, lack this skill. Kudos to you for being cool about different opinions. Lastly - glad you got some bobber/skein and streamer action. While salmon have fallen out of favor for me personally, I will say I do still have fun seeing a good bobber down and then setting into a big pig. I have not personally done great with streamers, but I have had some great days with thundersticks, spinners and of course the classic - black flatfish with orange dots! Fish on


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## lodge lounger (Sep 16, 2005)

Great video! And a very balanced perspective. Good on ya!


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## rbarta (Aug 20, 2011)

I have enjoyed your videos on here and youtube. You honestly are the most accepting of positive criticism, if you can filter through the keyboard warriors on this site you can get great information and stories like this thread. Tight lines!


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Good stuff, keep it coming.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

With the rig you used , snagging fish in the mouth would be a challange.
Looks more like a jig ,and good luck snagging fish in the mouth at a distance with that. Maybe at four feet you could.

That poor rod must have a sore back.........

A light leader for dropper allows sacrificing weight on/ in snags. Split shot make getting hung up more easy. Have you checked out slinky type weights?
You can make your own from online instructions and maybe have less re- rigging.
Any way, nice gravel on a nice day with fish ,and thanks for the vid..


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