# Want big bucks?



## Kingfisher (Sep 13, 2000)

If you want big bucks we have to stop shooting the small ones. Michigan should stop the buck killing for two years issuing each hunter one doe permit. after the two years there will be three year classes of bucks running around and the doe herd trimmed to the right size . Then harvest equally. We kill almost all of the 1 1/2 yr old bucks every year leaving the breeding to be done by a few that are left and if the winter is bad they die from expiration. But alas this kind of managment will never happen so enjoy the spindle racks. Kingfisher


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

If only Kingfisher.


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## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

Most efficient because most radical !!!


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## Tom (Sep 12, 2000)

You go KF!!!


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## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

To Tom : Please forgive my ignorance, what does "KF" means ? 
I am interested even if not a compliment...
Thank you for your attention.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2000)

King Fisher = KF

*DAN*


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Keep the faith Kingfisher. We're making progress, although your proposal certainly would speed things along.


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## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

To a_ball4U, "Dan" : thank you telling for telling me what "KF" meant ... 

No doubt in my mind "KF" solution to sex ratio and density problem is the best and certainly the shortest to goal, i even think the DNR could applaud to it.
Since I started to browse QDM, QDMA ... and DNR sites, I became aware general public polls about wildlife management are most important : why not present irreproachable concepts to the general public ?
Very wildlife concerned (I wish it could be the case in France), no doubt it would heavily support your efforts in your endeavour and allow them to overcome all obstacles, from wherever they could come.
Jack.


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## Kingfisher (Sep 13, 2000)

My boy shot an 8 pt. wed. 1 1/2 year old. I have been hunting the same area since then. I have counted 42 different does,yearlings and button bucks. Not one antlered buck in the area. There are does running around with half mast tails with button bucks following displaying sexual motives and recieving swift kicks from mature does. I and my son are as guilty as the rest of shooting every antlered buck in the woods. I started doe harvesting about 10 years ago but it has had no effect on my local herd. last year over twenty mature does were shot during rifle season and there are still too many. We need better harvest regs. no buck kills for two or three years is the fastest way to get a state full of big bucks. I dont think that the average hunter would put up much of a fuss if he were shown what would be down the road. Kingfisher


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## Grouse Hunter (Jan 23, 2000)

While KF posts will certainly provide more mature bucks and a more equal buck to doe ratio, its simply impossible. The public outcry would be incredible. There are many hunters who don't care about racks. They just want a deer. Think about this. The biggest buck you've ever seen 20 yds broadside and you can't shoot. I don't know about you but it kills me.


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## Kingfisher (Sep 13, 2000)

That would just bite wouldnt it? there I am 8:00am opener a 200 lb 10 pt. with a 24" spread walks up to me and lays down and looks the other way. I have to pass cause I got one doe tag.I guess it is better the way it is wishing I could see a buck with horns. We all know that we have to stop killing young bucks to get big bucks but if I see a 4 point tomorrow he dies. I will shoot him because if I dont my neighbor will. No hunter would like being told he could not shoot a buck but as long as I knew my neighbor couldnt shoot him either I dont think I would mind would you? Kingfisher

[This message has been edited by Kingfisher (edited 11-21-2000).]


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Good things many times require a great deal of effort, patience and perseverance. I would just ask all of us interested and believing in QDM to focus on the long term benefits and our own enjoyment and satisfaction, and not to focus on what our neighbor will or might do when it comes to shooting a young buck. 

I can assure you that we're steadily gaining QDM converts. Would I like to see it happen much faster? Absolutely!


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2000)

in some places in Ohio and in the past we have been able to take more then one deer. Only one of the deer may be a buck though. I think that helps keep the buck doe ratio more in line. I have not killed a deer in Ohio in the last 2 years . In the places where i hunt i can go out and see 2 to three bucks a day and that is before the rut starts. The states all make a lot of money from the sales of licenses. People killing a lot of deer sells hunting licenses.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

As far as I know, Michigan is the only state in the great lakes region that permits hunters to take two bucks. That is one factor in Michigan having the poorest age and sex structure around.

We need a one buck limit in this state, but I can't see it happening until perhaps 2002 or 2003.

Happy Thanksgiving!


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

There does seem to be quite a bit of support for a one buck limit. The difficult thing is coming up with an estimate of how many bucks would be saved with a one buck limit. What do you think?


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## Dutchman (Jan 17, 2000)

Lets put button bucks on the buck tag. Maybe they would survive at least long enough to get "real" antlers.I believe that 60% or more of next years "bucks" are shot before there able to grow real antlers!


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Dutchman, I'm with you on the need to protect buttons. However, I think forcing hunters to use their antlered buck tags on buttons may be counter-productive, and here's why.

I believe it will make hunters more likely to pass on all antlerless deer, rather than risk burning their tag on a button. The DNR has also identified this possibility, and I think it has some merit. When hunters let does and female fawns walk, the result is generally negative to our objective of a quality, healthy deer herd.

For now, it doesn't hurt to talk to your fellow hunters and apply a little friendly "peer pressure" to discourage the harvest of buttons and to educate others on how to identify them.

It's my belief that a one buck limit would result in saving 28,000 bucks each year in Michigan, 80-90% of which will be 1.5 years old, our most vulnerable age class. Here's my unscientific rationale:

The DNR estimates that 16,000 antlered bucks are taken annually by hunters which have already used one buck tag during the season. That's 16,000 gross "saved" deer. Let's say that half of them would escape other hunters, leaving 8,000 "saved" deer. 

Here's the key - I believe for every deer saved by hunters unable to fill their second buck tag, at least two and one-half others would be saved by virtue of the fact that most hunters will be more likely to pass on the first buck they see (which few hunters currently do), and then wind up not harvesting any bucks at all. That's another 20,000 "saved" bucks, for a net grand total of 28,000 surviving that would otherwise be whacked.

I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong about the numbers, but am confident of the concept at work here. And it's undeniable that the states that surround us, with one buck limits, have both superior sex structure, and, equally important, age structure, than we have here in Michigan. 


[This message has been edited by farmlegend (edited 11-24-2000).]

[This message has been edited by farmlegend (edited 11-24-2000).]


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2000)

if you make hunters put a buck tag on button bucks they just might walk up and see it is a small buck and walk away. Now i am not saying this is going to happen in most cases but you can see that it will in some. Then they might go out and kill a larger buck hence killing more deer and tagging less. If i want meat i go to the store and buy it . It's a lot cheaper then to go into the woods and hunt for it. (man hours and everything else figured in)

Big bucks come from little bucks growing up !


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Just a couple of thoughts on the button buck issue. We (Mid-Michigan Branch QDMA) made a two part proposal earlier this year to the NRC. (1) Tag button bucks with a buck tag if you have one (no penalties) and (2) give the hunters information on ways to identify a button buck. In this regard, I thought the DNR did an excellent job in providing a section in the 2000 Hunting Guide on ways to identify a button buck (education is key). 

I've received positive feedback on this education process and think we need to give it plenty of time to see some positive results, before contemplating any hunting regulation changes. I'm optimistic that the button buck kill percentage will decrease in the years ahead. The vast majority of hunters that I'm in contact with prefer not to shoot these buck fawns (and the Michigan Sportsman poll results on this subject indicate that 2/3 of MI hunters would never knowingly shoot a button buck).



[This message has been edited by bwiltse (edited 11-26-2000).]


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## trappercarl (Nov 9, 2000)

1 buck 8 points or bigger 4 does per hunter
carl


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