# Should This Be Illegal? Air Powered / Cocked Crossbow - Fake Rage?



## UpNorthAirGunner

So I just published this video from a successful hunt this weekend and there are some people coming UNGLUED about this new technology. I know traditional archery purists here in Michigan have an ongoing distain for crossbows, but I think this just made their heads explode. 

I have been a traditional archery hunter all my life and my first deer taken was with a recurve bow back in 1988. I still don't understand why this set peoples' hair on fire. Stupid hunter-on-hunter infighting once again rears its head. I would like to have an open and civil conversation to better understand this furry and anger because I still don't see how what I or anyone else chooses to enjoy the archery season affects there hunt. Unless this fake rage is being fueled by archery manufacturer companies. Just saying.... 

So no I am not a bearded lady (comment from another archery hunter) and yes I can use my arms - I just like new hunting technology. What are everyone's thoughts one this? 

Watch here:


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## Thirty pointer

If all your after is a deer no matter what go for it... add a spotlight too and a lazer sight maybe some auto loading bolt gizmo after all you just want a deer and there are plenty of them (at least in the area you hunt ) We don't need any traditional hunting seasons anymore there is not enough money in it for the state now go kill you some deer .


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted

looks to big/wide. with todays xbows getting smaller and faster I cant picture anyone wanting an air powered xbow. how fast was it?? the rage is real


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## Waif

I'm not impressed with the shot. Cut the range in half maybe.
Lack of tracking left a lot to be desired too. If the demographic targeted for sales are folks who shoot near/beyond the limitations of effective centershots ,and don't know how to track...Fine.

As an add for an airbow? I'd give it about a 2.
My bows make a noise when shot. They don't blow a warning deer recognize though...:shhh:


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## Scadsobees

Well this bearded lady can't wait till gun season so I can shoot the stupid deer that don't walk so close.

I don't understand the rage either. While it's not for me ( by the time it's in my price range it probably won't be possible to get services parts), I can't imagine belittling somebody for trying some unique hardware.


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## UpNorthAirGunner

Waif said:


> I'm not impressed with the shot. Cut the range in half maybe.
> Lack of tracking left a lot to be desired too. If the demographic targeted for sales are folks who shoot near/beyond the limitations of effective centershots ,and don't know how to track...Fine.
> 
> As an add for an airbow? I'd give it about a 2.
> My bows make a noise when shot. They don't blow a warning deer recognize though...:shhh:


I Chrony'd this thing at 320 FPS so just average velocity. I intentionally didn't track at all on the first night as I thought it was a gut shot and didn't want to push the Deer. Would you have done otherwise? Same question for shot placement - would you have aimed it its kneecaps to hit the heart / lung area? It isn't propelled by air and I think the platform is based on the Excalibur 355. So the only thing it is doing is cranking / cocking the bow. As a matter of fact they sell these to be added onto a few Excalibur's as an alternative cocking method: https://shop.steambow.com/product/steambow-powerunit-conf-a-black/

I bet someone will end up coming out with a high torque electric cranking / cocking option someday with a Lithium Battery pack if there isn't one already out there yet. Innovation - you can't stop it.


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## magnum lure

What are the specs on this AIR bow, seem pretty mild with no pass thru on a 30yd shot?


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## Waif

UpNorthAirGunner said:


> I Chrony'd this thing at 320 FPS so just average velocity. I intentionally didn't track at all on the first night as I thought it was a gut shot and didn't want to push the Deer. Would you have done otherwise? Same question for shot placement - would you have aimed it its kneecaps to hit the heart / lung area? It isn't propelled by air and I think the platform is based on the Excalibur 355. So the only thing it is doing is cranking / cocking the bow. As a matter of fact they sell these to be added onto a few Excalibur's as an alternative cocking method: https://shop.steambow.com/product/steambow-powerunit-conf-a-black/
> 
> I bet someone will end up coming out with a high torque electric cranking / cocking option someday with a Lithium Battery pack if there isn't one already out there yet. Innovation - you can't stop it.


It's academically interesting , of course.
Older Excals running around 350 f.p.s. have stabbed a lot of critters.
Handcranks work on them just fine too.
Part of the appeal to older models is less reliance on advanced engineering. 
Cams are one example , but note Bowtechs headaches when re-engineering Excals...
Yes , the market drives the speed craze , but does speed kill?
They have an effective range limitation on varied live game though. What does not?
Beyond that , range can be extended on non living targets.

If I had aimed at that bucks knee caps , it would not have poised/crouched to jump. L.o.l..

Your studies in varied weather/climes will be interesting down the road to the curious. 
Is there any condensation issues with the 02tank? And if so , what happens in below freezing weather? Ect..


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## UpNorthAirGunner

magnum lure said:


> What are the specs on this AIR bow, seem pretty mild with no pass thru on a 30yd shot?


I measured it with my Caldwell at 320 FPS. It was embedded in the thick part of the rib at the spine stopping it from passing through.


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## UpNorthAirGunner

Waif said:


> It's academically interesting , of course.
> Older Excals running around 350 f.p.s. have stabbed a lot of critters.
> Handcranks work on them just fine too.
> Part of the appeal to older models is less reliance on advanced engineering.
> Cams are one example , but note Bowtechs headaches when re-engineering Excals...
> Yes , the market drives the speed craze , but does speed kill?
> They have an effective range limitation on varied live game though. What does not?
> Beyond that , range can be extended on non living targets.
> 
> If I had aimed at that bucks knee caps , it would not have poised/crouched to jump. L.o.l..
> 
> Your studies in varied weather/climes will be interesting down the road to the curious.
> Is there any condensation issues with the 02tank? And if so , what happens in below freezing weather? Ect..


Great question about the cold because when I first saw this comes with CO2 canisters with the HPA bottle as an optional fill method - I knew right away that HPA would be the way to go since it doesn't have the same issues as CO2 in the cold. With that said it is just cocking the device and not the propellant so as long as it has enough charge to cock - then either would work.


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## Waif

UpNorthAirGunner said:


> Great question about the cold because when I first saw this comes with CO2 canisters with the HPA bottle as an optional fill method - I knew right away that HPA would be the way to go since it doesn't have the same issues as CO2 in the cold. With that said it is just cocking the device and not the propellant so as long as it has enough charge to cock - then either would work.


Gotcha now...

Legality should be no issue.
It's part of a diverse subject where disabilities are concerned though.
Unique as each disability can be in most cases , some one needing a device to cock a bow likely has other needs.
Mobility firstly. How to transport the bow and yourself to stand site? Hold it secure to aim?
How to decock the bow? Shooting a blunt bolt sounds simple enough , if you are mobile enough to play chase from a chair. IF you're in a chair , and can reach the ground.
Sip/puff trigger device? Leadsled? Blind that allows a wheelchair through the door ? And on and on.
What should be allowed to cock a bow is likely low on the list of some one's issues if unable to cock a bow. Important as having the bow cocked to shoot is, get the danged thing cocked.

Deer recovery and field dressing await the successful too.
While help is a commonly suggested answer. There are hunters who want to do all they can on their own.
That is along the lines of a cocking device suiting a particular ( though still varied across the board) disability can appeal to some. A limited market perhaps. 
But to users , a small part of making do as much as possible.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Im a bowhunter so I have no interest in non-bowhunting tool like those stored energy, stocked, shoulder discharged bolt slingers. Bowhunting is not for everybody so I think its good that the easy button exists for those that are not capable of success with a bow and arrow. They are in no way a bowhunter but I suppose they are having some sort of fun. Would likely be good for little kids and small women and the really really old and disabled that cant take up the sport of bowhunting. There is a segment of folks that want to bring as little of themselves to the task as possible and purchase improved range and success so they opt out of the sport of bowhunting and instead look for the easy button. I think most tolerate that sort until those people try to pose as or pretend they are bowhunters by leaving the weapon out of the hero shot or saying it was an "archery" kill.  No thanks. I will stick to the sport of bowhunting, you crossers can take up your crossbowing. I would find little challenge or satisfaction or reward in taking an animal with that bolt slinger when bowhunting is there for the taking. My comments may upset some.

I wont care.


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## Waif

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Im a bowhunter so I have no interest in non-bowhunting tool like those stored energy, stocked, shoulder discharged bolt slingers. Bowhunting is not for everybody so I think its good that the easy button exists for those that are not capable of success with a bow and arrow. They are in no way a bowhunter but I suppose they are having some sort of fun. Would likely be good for little kids and small women and the really really old and disabled that cant take up the sport of bowhunting. There is a segment of folks that want to bring as little of themselves to the task as possible and purchase improved range and success so they opt out of the sport of bowhunting and instead look for the easy button. I think most tolerate that sort until those people try to pose as or pretend they are bowhunters by leaving the weapon out of the hero shot or saying it was an "archery" kill.  No thanks. I will stick to the sport of bowhunting, you crossers can take up your crossbowing. I would find little challenge or satisfaction or reward in taking an animal with that bolt slinger when bowhunting is there for the taking. My comments may upset some.
> 
> I wont care.


Maybe someday you'll graduate to living in a wigwam.
Till then you're as much a poser as anyone.
But then , you hunt for "sport" anyways, so , what's that leave you?


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## Rancid Crabtree

LOL at "Wigwam" I made my own Tipi. I cut and peeled and dried the poles, cut and sewed the canvas and made all the interior comfort items.










I get my most enjoyment and satisfaction hunting small game like deer and black bear with all homemade traditional bowhunting gear that I design and make myself. Ive taken deer and black bear with a longbow I designed and made myself, using arrows I make using the feathers from turkey I killed as the fletchings. I use a homemade broadhead of my design that I make out of old saw blades. I made my finger tab out of the leather upper from an of pair of Sorel boots. This is the last black bear I killed with all homemade primitive trad archery gear. The smaller bear I killed with my truck on the drive home from the hunt. For large or dangerous game more robust than my 48 pound longbow would attempt, I will use a compound which is a different human powered bow I have to draw and hold with only human effort at the time of the attempt to kill. I am a bowhunter. No shoulder discharged, stocked blot slingers for me. That not bowhunting but I support the crossers that need the easy button.


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Im a bowhunter so I have no interest in non-bowhunting tool like those stored energy, stocked, shoulder discharged bolt slingers. Bowhunting is not for everybody so I think its good that the easy button exists for those that are not capable of success with a bow and arrow. They are in no way a bowhunter but I suppose they are having some sort of fun. Would likely be good for little kids and small women and the really really old and disabled that cant take up the sport of bowhunting. There is a segment of folks that want to bring as little of themselves to the task as possible and purchase improved range and success so they opt out of the sport of bowhunting and instead look for the easy button. I think most tolerate that sort until those people try to pose as or pretend they are bowhunters by leaving the weapon out of the hero shot or saying it was an "archery" kill.  No thanks. I will stick to the sport of bowhunting, you crossers can take up your crossbowing. I would find little challenge or satisfaction or reward in taking an animal with that bolt slinger when bowhunting is there for the taking. My comments may upset some.
> 
> I wont care.


Thats how i view those pro-maprs people, cant hunt their way out of a wet paper bag so they looking for the easy button. Pretty sad, they posing as hunters


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## stickbow shooter




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## Waif

Rancid Crabtree said:


> LOL at "Wigwam" I made my own Tipi. I cut and peeled and dried the poles, cut and sewed the canvas and made all the interior comfort items.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get my most enjoyment and satisfaction hunting small game like deer and black bear with all homemade traditional bowhunting gear that I design and make myself. Ive taken deer and black bear with a longbow I designed and made myself, using arrows I make using the feathers from turkey I killed as the fletchings. I use a homemade broadhead of my design that I make out of old saw blades. I made my finger tab out of the leather upper from an of pair of Sorel boots. This is the last black bear I killed with all homemade primitive trad archery gear. The smaller bear I killed with my truck on the drive home from the hunt. For large or dangerous game more robust than my 48 pound longbow would attempt, I will use a compound different human powered bow I have to draw and hold with only human effort at the time of the attempt to kill. I am a bowhunter.


We've covered your tepee. And it is not your home.
And your website.

Tepee is not a traditional shelter in this region. Nor was canvas. But , kudo's on it anyways.
A liner is good. As is an alter. And willow lacing pins.
As is consent to paint on the cover. As it is reserved for sanctified activity, by only certain guild/folks.
Why you mounted the cover off the ground ,vs rolling it up if you want a draft....
Kinda hard to adjust it to stop the uptake. 
No ring of stones.
But hey ,you're ahead of me. My former lodge poles are rotting on the ground now.



Ishi you're not.
No sawblade steel for traditional archery. Or steel draw knives and plastic pipe for fleshing.
Brain tanned hide or none.
Self bow from a stave you gathered split and aged? Your leaning it against the lodge makes me wince at tiller threat. And ground contact on the tip.
String from "traditional" made cordage?

I like the edge on the saw steel hinting of a chisel point. Good finesse.
Any more width gets in the realm of enhanced planing , but such is compromise.


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## Rancid Crabtree

This is how I make my stone points.










I used a nice, thin, white piece for the arrowhead.










I made some wood and cooper tools and an antler brow tine to flake away the stone. The leather is to protect my hand as I press the coper tool against the chert. The flakes are sharp.










I started by squaring off the bottom of the flake and then chipped the head to shape.



















Lastly I added the grooves to each side that will be used to tie the head to the shaft. This is where I make the most mistakes and break the head.



















Next, I used a knife to cut a groove in the end of a wood shaft to accept the stone head.










I will trim away the extra wood after I tie the head on.










To tie the head to the shaft, I use the sinew I save from the loins/backstraps from my deer.










It separates into nice thin threads.










I soaked the sinew threads in cold water to soften and stretch them. While waiting, I stained the wood shaft. The sinew does not really get tied onto the shaft. It is more like wrapping a wet noodle around the shaft. After I put on a few layers, I dried it with a blow dryer (just like I'm sure the early people did). This makes it shrink tight. I then rub the sinew with a block of bees wax to waterproof it so it won't get wet and loosen up.




























For the fletching, I went back to the turkey feathers and tied them on.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Unlike the crossers that try to distance themselves from the tasks of bowhunting and want to bring as little as possible to the task of taking game, I tend to go the other route. 

I enjoy making my own arrows. Ive been making them for about 40 years. While I enjoy longbows and recurves and compounds (All forms of human powered bowhunting),fletchings for the arrows I hunt with. Likewise I make my own cedar/alum/carbon arrows. I took a few pictures of the last batch of feather I am worked on. This is not the ONLY way to make arrows. Its just one way. There is more than one way to skin a cat and while I love cats, I can’t eat a whole one by myself but I digress.

We save the wings from the birds we kill so we can make them fly again.










I like to use the primary feathers but I also use the secondary feathers if they seem fitting for the purpose.










I trim away both ends that are less than useful.










Turkeys are dirty, smelly, oily birds so the feathers need a bath in warm soapy water










Even though this turkey died once, Its gonna get dyed again. This time red but sometimes green or yellow, etc. I use RIT dye, really hot water and a little vinegar.










After a rinse and air drying.










Lots of folks use a razor knife to split their feathers and I have done it that way for years but I find a 14 tooth very thin bandsaw blade offers more control and is a bit easier/safer.



















I fabricated a holder that allows me to grind/sand the base and sides of the feathers. Nothing fancy but it works.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Then a trip on the drill press against a sanding drum with a wood spacer slightly larger in Diameter than the drum to allow for consistent spacing.





































I don’t chop my feather although that is a perfectly fine method to employ. I tend to burn my feathers either in advance of fletching using a simple clamp I made from office supplies and a red hot wire.










Or I burn them after fletching (also using a hot wire)



















I like to dip and crest my cedars in colors that match the feathers.










I have a few fletching jigs that date back pretty far but for a bit more helical I use this newer Bohning jig.



















Here is another batch.










Couple that with a homemade broadhead and it makes for one very satisfying way to pass the time and a way to increase the level of satisfaction and accomplishment when you take game with a homemade bow and homemade arrows. No easy button with a stocked, shoulder discharged easy button bolt slinger. Im a bowhunter and Epstein did not kill himself.


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## Rancid Crabtree

And as you so correctly opined. I am not Ishi (but then I never claimed to be. That was your invention).

Actually my wife has more days and nights living in our lodge than I do.



















If folks dont want to take up the sport of bowhunting or they want to quit the sport of bowhunting to take up crossing, I wont begrudge them. Bowhunting is not for everybody. Not everybody can get it done with a bow and arrow so if they need a stocked bolt slinger, Im cool with that. As for me. I will instead be a bowhunter.

Another all homemade trad. Archery harvest. I am a bowhunter.


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## Rancid Crabtree

But the crosser that started this thread asked if that non-bowhunting, bolt slinger should be illegal. I say no, it should not, just like I don’t think handicapped ramps and parking spaces should be illegal. I don’t think shoes with lifts that give the illusion of height should be illegal. I don’t think the motorized/ride on shopping carts at Walmart should be illegal either. Many of these things are needed by people that require the advantages to level the playing field that allows them to participate.


But I think we all share the same opinion of people that are able bodied, parking in handicapped spots or using the scooters at Walmart. I feel sad for them and the able bodied that would take up crossing instead of bowhunting and then pose as or pretend that they are bowhunters. Bowhunters don’t tolerate posers at all and can spot them from a mile away.


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## UpNorthAirGunner

stickbow shooter said:


> View attachment 452173


HA! That is pretty close to what I would look like shirtless with this Steambow.... Just for clarification - I know the commitment and dedication it takes to be a true archer. Anyone who claims to be a true archer by using any crossbow is a joke. From the age of 12-16 my Dad made me shoot an old recurve bow and could only go into the woods if I could get 10 consecutive shots into an 6 inch circle at 20 yards. That isn't Robin Hood level shooting, but I have the skinned forearms and a nice scar to prove I went through that right of passage. 

I am seeing this theme from hunters who purely shoot vertical bows really take offense to the ease of use of crossbows. I totally get that and is understandable, but... Don't be a jerk. Being an archer doesn't give you the right to be a jerk. Not saying funny memes like this is being a jerk because I actually laughed when I saw it, but there are a TON of online trolls and other bow hunters that sling insults worse than anything I have ever heard from anti hunters. 

I spend more time defending my hunting and choice of hunting methods against other hunters 1000% times more than I do anti hunters. Just saying!


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## UpNorthAirGunner

Rancid Crabtree said:


> LOL at "Wigwam" I made my own Tipi. I cut and peeled and dried the poles, cut and sewed the canvas and made all the interior comfort items.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get my most enjoyment and satisfaction hunting small game like deer and black bear with all homemade traditional bowhunting gear that I design and make myself. Ive taken deer and black bear with a longbow I designed and made myself, using arrows I make using the feathers from turkey I killed as the fletchings. I use a homemade broadhead of my design that I make out of old saw blades. I made my finger tab out of the leather upper from an of pair of Sorel boots. This is the last black bear I killed with all homemade primitive trad archery gear. The smaller bear I killed with my truck on the drive home from the hunt. For large or dangerous game more robust than my 48 pound longbow would attempt, I will use a compound which is a different human powered bow I have to draw and hold with only human effort at the time of the attempt to kill. I am a bowhunter. No shoulder discharged, stocked blot slingers for me. That not bowhunting but I support the crossers that need the easy button.


Dude I LOVE this! Your photos are the polar opposite from my STEAMBOW crossbow video. It is literally the anti-Technology approach to hunting. I totally get that. Kudos to you man for all your efforts in each of these photos. No one slinging a bolt from a crossbow should consider themselves an archer, but all of this talk from some hunters within our community to say crossbow users are not "hunters" is a bridge too far. 

There is so much more that goes into hunting that the final kill shot. Personally - I am a technology junkie, but that doesn't mean I don't value or recognize or HATE primitive bow hunters like yourself choose to practice your craft. 

If we want to get academic it could be said that hunters that choose to continue to use primitive weapons that are the lesser lethal option when there is modern technology available - that is being unethical and irresponsible. I am not saying that because I don't believe that, but academically it could be argued. The point I am trying to make is that is the mutual respect that is lacking so much in the hunting community and I hope that can get better someday. I doubt it though in this tribalized world we live in now. Sad.


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## Lumberman

The rage is ridiculous. People are idiots. I don’t know who coined it but my favorite phrase is hunt your hunt. 

Now clearly there has to be some agreed upon rules to protect the resource. As long as you’re in those rules then have at it. 

It really cracks me up with the super arrogant trad guys spend a fortune on expensive leases and outfitters. They have it polar opposite in my opinion. Great you build all your own stuff and then go shoot tame animals with it. Not my cup of tea. 

Hunting is different for everyone.


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## Waif

Rancid Crabtree said:


> But the crosser that started this thread asked if that non-bowhunting, bolt slinger should be illegal. I say no, it should not, just like I don’t think handicapped ramps and parking spaces should be illegal. I don’t think shoes with lifts that give the illusion of height should be illegal. I don’t think the motorized/ride on shopping carts at Walmart should be illegal either. Many of these things are needed by people that require the advantages to level the playing field that allows them to participate.
> 
> 
> But I think we all share the same opinion of people that are able bodied, parking in handicapped spots or using the scooters at Walmart. I feel sad for them and the able bodied that would take up crossing instead of bowhunting and then pose as or pretend that they are bowhunters. Bowhunters don’t tolerate posers at all and can spot them from a mile away.


If someone is using a crossbow , who cares how they cock it?

As far as you being traditional.
Let me know what color truck is traditional. And how many miles you've put on traditional foot trails across states to your hunting sites while dragging your tepee.

We flattened quills before splitting.
Then left quill each end to wrap.
As long as they give resistance/drag , they work.

On atlatl darts we experimented a lot when fletching.
One large enough goose feather split worked fine. Two vanes. While not as durable , simply wrapping each end sufficed when darts were being abused in novice hands.
Did not try multiple vanes inline to substitute for larger feathers . Twice the work...Gotta take the easy route!


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## stickbow shooter

I can live with this xbow cocking thingy, Like waif said what does it matter how it's cocked, but no way on that " airgun thingy".


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## Rancid Crabtree

UpNorthAirGunner said:


> but all of this talk from some hunters within our community to say crossbow users are not "hunters" is a bridge too far.


Nobody said crossers are not "hunters" They (like firearms hunters) are hunters. They just are not "Bowhunters". They want desperately to be thought of as bowhunters but they cant be.


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## big buck 75

I have bow hunted since the 60's and have seen all the changes. I would like to ask Crabtree and anyone else who wants to chime in. Do you consider people who shoot compounds, bow hunters. The reason I asked is because I got my first compound in the 70s, prior to that I was shooting a recurve. I heard all the arguments then that it was a mechanical advantage and not really bow hunting, take the training wheels off ect. Its true the compound bow was a giant leap forward with huge advantages. Then went from round wheels to cams to 80% let off ect all increasing the efficiency of the bow.


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## trucker3573

Nothing wrong with it. If I personally were to use a horizontal bow it would just be a xbow. Good to have lots of choices though.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## UpNorthAirGunner

big buck 75 said:


> I have bow hunted since the 60's and have seen all the changes. I would like to ask Crabtree and anyone else who wants to chime in. Do you consider people who shoot compounds, bow hunters. The reason I asked is because I got my first compound in the 70s, prior to that I was shooting a recurve. I heard all the arguments then that it was a mechanical advantage and not really bow hunting, take the training wheels off ect. Its true the compound bow was a giant leap forward with huge advantages. Then went from round wheels to cams to 80% let off ect all increasing the efficiency of the bow.


Agreed and great historical accounting of where we are today. The biggest issue I have is how triggered and the false perception of how another hunter's choice to hunt some how affects other hunters. None of these devices will decimate the Deer herd nor will is cause some false narrative of a HUGE influx of new hunters screwing up your hunting spot. Nor does any of these technologies take away from the skilled craft of those who choose the lesser advanced / primitive technology.

I am a big bore airgun hunter for the regular firearm Deer season because it is more of a challenge. I have to know my air pressure, slug velocity, sub sonic trajectory, and these are all variables I can control which makes the skill of big bore airgunning more challenging that heading out with a rifle or shotgun where I just look at the back of the box to tell me what my hold over is. Do I look down at powder burner hunter's - NO! 

I don't give a hoot what they shoot. I think most of this anger is protectionist crap and / or snowflake level triggered emotions from some people who take their craft so seriously that they get really offended by what other people are doing. 

There is an element of industry and money behind a lot of this rage against new technology too. If you don't think the Archery Trade Association (ATA) isn't behind the push back of some of these new technologies like airbows - you have your head in the sand. It is all about the money. Just my 2 cents....


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## stonesfan83

Shooting and making your own traditional archery gear is bad a**! I understand that it is leaps and bounds harder than having a loaded crossbow and pulling a trigger. That being said it sure looks like you guys put in endless hours to just be ready for the season, making equipment practicing with said equipment. I imagine you guys are practicing a couple times a week or more leading up to the season so that you are confident you can make an ethical kill shot when needed. So my point is I would love to get into "real" bow hunting, but I just don't have the time to practice as much as necessary let alone make the equipment I would use. So here I am with my cross bow because its the only way I can get out and feel confident to go out and get the job done. To each their own with all legal methods considered. Just know that not every crosser out there is looking for the easy way out. Some are just left with it being their best option because of the demands of our world today. Good luck to everyone in the woods no matter what your shooting. Just glad when I can get out there...

Sent from my P00I using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Rancid Crabtree

big buck 75 said:


> I would like to ask Crabtree and anyone else who wants to chime in. Do you consider people who shoot compounds, bow hunters.


Yes and so does every state and territory since compounds are human powered bows drawn with only human effort at the time of the attempt on game and requiring a let down (with all the related noise and motions) should that shot not present itself and then the bowhunter must re-draw (with all its related noise and motion) now fatigued after the first attempt. AND the bowhunter is limited by his own human strength which limits him in the peak weight he can muster back in cold weather. 

That said, I have no beef with the crosser until he insists/demands/pretends/poses as a bowhunter.


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## BigWoods

Keep shooting those spike horns over an illegal bait pile with a gun Rancid. Lmao


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## Luv2hunteup

Now that pro baiters have found a house representative to circumvent proposal G it’s opened up the flood gate. There is a bill to legalize air bows in the House. HB 4332.


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## Joe Archer

big buck 75 said:


> I have bow hunted since the 60's and have seen all the changes. I would like to ask Crabtree and anyone else who wants to chime in. *Do you consider people who shoot compounds, bow hunters. *The reason I asked is because I got my first compound in the 70s, prior to that I was shooting a recurve. I heard all the arguments then that it was a mechanical advantage and not really bow hunting, take the training wheels off ect. Its true the compound bow was a giant leap forward with huge advantages. Then went from round wheels to cams to 80% let off ect all increasing the efficiency of the bow.


Yes, I believe we are bow hunters because shooting a compound bow is archery. 
Shooting a crossbow in my opinion is not archery.
I have not been on archery leagues for quite some time. Do crossbowers, compound users, and traditionalists all shoot on the same leagues together? Seriously, would crossbowers even join a league?
Anyway, I have nothing against crossbows or those who hunt with them. However, I do agree that "Archery" is what is lost in the crossbow equation. No body rides for free, I guess.
As for the air powered cocking device being legal? I see no reason why not. I do agree that the bow itself looks heavy and cumbersome and probably won't compete with today's lighter and more compact models.
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## john warren

it cocks the bow,,,, just like a winch,,, or other cocking device,,, if a person can't pull a bow,,, he may not be able to cock the xbow,,, so some tool,,lever, winch,,, air power,, is needed to cock it. aside from other arguments aganst xbows,, this is nothing


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