# I just have to ask



## Shoeman

Don, 

Paul was only making light of a potentially explosive situation. I wouldn't hold it against him.

By generating such animosity nothing will get resolved as a matter of fact that's what gets these threads closed.

Phlyphisher,

No need to look down on anyone. We're all in the same boat. This isn't about lazy fisherman, it's about the pressure


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## unregistered55

I totally understand that Ralf...Sorry if it was taken wrong but really when someone is in charge of change, like we all are in this issue, it would be nice to keep on the subject and not make anything but general remarks so no one goes off the handle. 

Bluegil Bob and Mickey...Please if you must voice your opinions of each other back and forth send each other some PM's that way you can say what ya really feel and not clutter this thread from it's original issue.

Like I said in an above post...WE are the biggest and best Hunting and Fishing website in Michigan for Michigan. Naming rivers and even some lakes with limited acccess and/Or in close proximity of large populations or even waters up north in the middle of no-where is very harmful to fishing and fisheries. I have seen it 1st hand as have all the other hard core river fishermen here. Sure, us hard core guys can always find new places when the crowds are large at our favorite spots...but if the internet reports continue one day there will not be any "New" spots to find.

Again lets put our heads together on this issue and set a standard that hopefully other websites will follow and quit bashing our heads together...


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## Shoeman




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## Pinefarm

N.O. as far as just river reports, when I talked to Tom Steel of TSS, I think he said they get like 60,000 visitors a day and over 100,000 views a day, just on the Michigan forum alone, during the peaks. This thread, for example, has a mere 1000 views. When taken as a whole, deer, ice fishing, etc, M-S is very big and important. But with the river crowd, and especially trout, salmon and steelhead fishermen from out of state, TSS would be your crowding culprit, not the several hundred or 1000 guys that lurk on this particular forum. Just something to consider.
We could always just close down this forum...


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## phlyphisher

Listen guys, I'm not putting anyone down. But when people start assigning categories, e.g. "whiners," it's hard not to label back. I'm far from holier than thou, but like Mickey, I find I'm much more passionate about things when I've invested so much of my own time into it.


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## riverman

And the only people that post over there(tss) any more with fishing reports are the newbies and , well, you know. Riverman

Ralph. get that pic of my mother"s ass off the net!!!!


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## mickey

I was gonna make a comment about that Riverman but ya beat me to it.


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## unregistered55

Come on riverman that isn't your mom...It's Mickey's girlfriend


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## riverman

Oh thats my momma alright because thats my dad standing on the rock behind her. I just dont understand what he is looking at with mom waving it around like that in front of him. Riverman


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## unregistered55

I bet he is regretting the fact that he posted about that "Empty" Hot spot on Michigan-Sportman.com the day before...


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## STEINFISHSKI

Good point Bob. Many of our members are also members, and former members who have stopped visiting TSS and Greatmich(bitch).com. All would agree we should not tolerate any of the banter associated with them. 

An uncientific survey might also reveal that our Mods and Super mods have done an exceptional job at keeping the site headed in that direction. After all they are fellow sportsmen/women who share the same resources, and volunteer their time to babysit, for the good of the site. The members and moderators I've met have all been top shelf and deserve respect and tolerance and deserve thanks for their time and efforts. After all they might be going through personal issues and hard times like the rest of us and never have 24/7 to donate. Things seem fine to me here.

See you on the rivers. I'm out... fishing I can only hope.


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## Ranger Ray

I have been fishing our beautiful waters for 37 years. I think I have fished everywhere once and somewhere twice. I have steadily seen an increase in the number of fisherman on all waters I fish. When I started fishing the Muskegon, White, PM, Manistee etc I could actually go all day without seeing another person. As the west side of the state has grown so has the number of people seeking to use the waterways. I and most of my fishing buddies have fished 99% of the areas that members have posted here. I call on about 5 to 12 companies a day and talk to probably 35 to 75 people in that day. 60% or better are outdoors enthusiasts and heading out on this river or in this woods within 3 days of our conversation. I run into several a week on average fishing and hunting the same areas I do. Not because I told them where I was going, but more so because of the limited land, launches, and access points we all use. Posting a river or spot no doubt adds a few people to the rivers you and I fish. Is it substantial? I doubt it. My reel screams and rod bends just as much if not even more today with all the pressure as it did in the ole days thanks to the aggressive fisheries our state has maintained. I even propose that if you were not fishing in the heyday of legal salmon snagging you have yet to know what real fishing pressure is. 

As I understand it is the posters discretion as to whether he states an exact river or spot. Everyones opinion is going to be a little different on what crosses the line and what doesnt. Until you state that there is absolutely no naming, I dont see how you can criticize anyone. This web site is one of the best web sites I have found. One of the reasons is because the people are allowed to speak their mind. 99.9% of the posters do a good job policing them selves and when out of control the moderators respond in a timely fashion. Dont let the few affect your thinking about the rest.


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## Apache Trout

The solution seems rather simple to me. The categories of named rivers are already marked in the forum directory. For eample, post a report on the river you fished in Northwest Michigan without naming the river and the viewer will know the region of Michigan the poster fished. This would be most useful because we could openly discuss the method of fishing that proved best, which would, in general, be aplicable for the entire region without naming the actual river. Just my .02.


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## quest32a

Apache that was tried once, and even voted on to an extent. It was overruled by a vote of around 80% to 20%


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## chromium




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## TSS Caddis

ESOX, that's my point. Since when is it a "waste" of time to fish and not catch anything?

When I lived 2 hours away, I fished when I had time cause I like to fish. I never called bait shops or researched river reports on the net. It just didn't matter to me if the "run's on" or not and still doesn't.

To everyone, I fail to see how Phlyphisher is looking down on anyone. If someone will only fish if the "run's on", they are lazy or think their time is so valuable it can't be wasted. Neither is a personality trait I respect.


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## quest32a

Ralf where is that pic from........LOL


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## STEINFISHSKI

> To everyone, I fail to see how Phlyphisher is looking down on anyone. If someone will only fish if the "run's on", they are lazy or think their time is so valuable it can't be wasted. Neither is a personality trait I respect.


Sounds like you are looking down on someone.

We all view these forums differently. You mean of Phly or Steve says he got a hot tip on river x, you'd say nope, I'm fishing river y, fish or not I'm going there? 

For me it's about the fellowship. Fish are good, less crowds is good, and sharing information is the common thread that keeps us on our toes and in touch with different ideas and productive patterns and trying new things and places.

BTW John, I think that MS guy is taking a whiz.


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## Steve

So if I am too understand this fully, we should eliminate all posts with specific rivers here even though they will still appear on TSS and other "secret" sites like:

http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2291
or 
http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2361
or
http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2233
or
http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2177
or
http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1154

Seems like I'm hearing conflicting things here. 

You might say well those sites aren't as big, but if we shut her down here they will be quite soon. The fly site is national besides. Gee I sure would hate to see all those out-of-staters in "my" spots. 

Sorry but for me to unilaterally shut things down here really puts us on the short end of the stick and I'm not going to do that.

We tried to settle this issue more than a few times. Remember? Our policy is essentially the same although I've taken a few more rivers off the regional lists. I don't want to see reports on rivers/streams that are not on the list.


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## Lunker

Quote-"Mods and Super mods have done an exceptional job at keeping the site headed in that direction. After all they are fellow sportsmen/women who share the same resources, and volunteer their time to babysit, for the good of the site. The members and moderators I've met have all been top shelf and deserve respect and tolerance and deserve thanks for their time and efforts. After all they might be going through personal issues and hard times like the rest of us and never have 24/7 to donate. Things seem fine to me here." 

My thoughts exactly. Ive found the most vague adult like posting here at this site and this is why I contribute and stay at this site. All the other MI sites have people talking about fishing about any river at any time too, thats part of fishing. All the bait stores have reports available too as well as all the other sites and other fishing shows in MI. So I dont see the big deal.


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## mickey

But plugger,
You live by the PM. I live by a drainage ditch...

Boy, for a bunch of republicans....you guys sure are liberal


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## Steve

People might find out about places to fish from books too. Ever read http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_2/104-9137039-1055927?v=glance&s=books ??

Better shut Amazon down too. People also might learn about "spots" from talking to one another at trade related shows like the MWFF that recently took place. Mr. Bedford might have even been there signing his book. Heaven forbid we promote the sport, the resource, and it's future.


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## plugger

I lived there, I moved. The only time I rember being on paint creek was in the mid 60's, I was less than 10 years, it was opening day, oeople were shoulder to shoulder and one person had one fish on all day. I thought it was awesome.


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## Ranger Ray

New name for web site. UnknownSportsman.com


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## hypox

I thought we had freedom of speech in this country? 

I saw this post and new it was gonna get going again. Anyway, I fish mostly trout, steel and some salmon in RIVERS. Some big, some small. While I have been glad to see small rivers go from being posted on, it's silly to not post about larger ones. I think people are being selfish and need to learn to share. Those fish equally belong to EVERY person in michigan. I think we should encourage anyone to go out and give it a try. Fisherman (and sportsman in general) are typicaly a good breed of guys. This non-sense bickering about it is not going to solve the problem.

Steve, my suggestion is....Make a call and stick to your guns. If someone doesn't like it they don't have to log on, as we all know there are plenty of other sites. 

I've been here a long time, I can't beleive how much this site has changed.


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## tangleknot

With the current policy, it is requested that we not post on specific holes. However, I don't see a listing of streams and rivers that should not be posted on. I think we would all agree there are some small rivers that can simply not handle the pressure. New members might not have any idea and post on such a river and then the whole cycle of this discussion begins again. 

Mickey, by the way, you just said But Plugger!


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## mickey

And I will remove all of your but pluggers for a small fee.  

BTW, I agree that big rivers are not the issue.


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## unregistered55

Actually I have had enough of this thread. I'm done. It's always the same old thing. No one believes us guys that see it 1st hand. Us die hard, hard core river fishermen. The ones that are on the river 3 weekends a month and on local SE rivers 2-3 times a week and observe posts and see the effect. Steve take a deep breath and walk away from this thread and really think about it when ya calm down. Last post from me on this Goodnight.


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## mickey

Hypox,

I cant believe how much this site has changed myself. Used to be a guy could bring up issues and get treated with respect.


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## Steve

> people were shoulder to shoulder and one person had one fish on all day. I thought it was awesome.


Back in the 60's... no way.... without the internet? I don't believe it happened. 

There is no list on river/streams NOT to post about. The list that you MAY (but don't have to) specifically mention are on the description of the regional forums.

I'll pull the trout fishing reports when the DNR stops stocking and (or) publishing where they stock fish on...., dare I say it.... the internet.

I believe I have been respectful on this thread. If not then please forgive my transgressions.


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## mickey

Hey, if you guys can engage in smart aleck banter, can I as well? I can be sarcastic too.

I do not agree with your logic. That used to be respected here, Steve.

I agree, it is your site. And I will do what is best for the "good of the site". See you guys/gals on the streams.


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## hypox

> _Originally posted by northern_outdoorsman _
> * No one believes us guys that see it 1st hand. Us die hard, hard core river fishermen. The ones that are on the river 3 weekends a month and on local SE rivers 2-3 times a week and observe posts and see the effect. *


I don't think it's not about believing the pressure. We all know that is true. But we are talking about major rivers and fish that belong to everyone. I thought people wanted to promote hunting and fishing, as soon as someone is in your hole at 9am saturday morning everyones in a panic. SHARE people.

And yes the pressure is true. Your talking to one of those die hards here. I haven't missed a weekend of fishing since JAN 1st. I go 4 weekends a month and fish during the week as much as possible. I've driven from southern michigan to the U.P. 3 weekends in a month just to fish.


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## Shoeman

Good Luck

You'll need it


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## tangleknot

> _Originally posted by Steve _
> *Posts about small streams and tribs has always been highly discouraged. *


Steve, I guess my point is that a new member wouldn't have a clue of the above unwritten policy. The geographically divided forums only mention specific holes.


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## plugger

I think the best point brought up is we should be able to address somones Idea without attacking them personaly. Also dont take offense if someone disagrees with you, be adults, no one gets their way all the time. For along time this has been one of the best forums with the nicest people on the net. I have met many ofthe people who regularly post on this forum at the lands inn over the last few years and hope they can be as nice on the net as in the bar.


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## Steve

Sarah, perhaps we should put this as a sticky on the top of each of those forums.


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## feeshermann

Can SOMEONE tell me a reason why omitting the names of ALL rivers and locations and just having geographical sections Doesn't work?! Seems to me this should make EVERYONE happy - people who have a clue and don't post reports can't have a gripe; new people and people who used to post reports until they seen the results may come back and start posting again if they don't fear verbal abuse; fishermen who actually have a funny or interesting fishing story may be more apt to make a post; business owners and people trying to make a buck off of this can still get their message accross through the mere mention of their name and links; people with half a brain should be able to figure out locations to explore just from the sections given, and if they can't, they should stick to bluegill fishing; and most importantly, people can get their jollys by making posts of their fishing experiences for whatever reason they may have for doing it. Why should it matter to these people that they can't mention a specific spot or river? How does that take away from the point of their post? They'll still get the masses saying what a fishing-God they are and how envious they are - isn't what most of them seek? 
So how can anyone have a problem with things set up that way? And don't underestimate the power of these sites - just because it at thread says 1000 hits doesn't mean squat - how many people do you think those 1000 people told? And how many did they tell, and so on? You can probably multiply that number by at least 5 I think. The speed of the internet makes this problem even worse. You make a post mentioning a specific spot in the morning and your spot will be full by the afternoon guaranteed. I've seen it happen countless times and other people that have a clue on this site have seen it too - nobody can logically or honestly argue this fact. So what would be the problem with a no-name policy?


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## kingfisher 11

And I thought the political topics were hotbeds. This topic has out did most of the firey political post.

You can see when it comes to our sports. Politics will always take a second seat to what is near and dear to our hearts.


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## Pinefarm

People, sales and license sales have actually DECREASED since the "River Runs Through It" boom of the early 1990's. And trust me, I wish there was as many people around as there was then, before Al Gore invented this magic box. Why do you think so many fishing stores in Michigan are hurting and closing their doors? And despite any face saving excuses, the bottom line for nearly all of them is a major drop in sales. Businessmen don't close money makers. I'll also bet we'll have another 15% less fishing stores in the state in the next 5-10 years due to the decrease. Our best salmon season for sales was 4 years ago. Steve, how many members were on M-S 4 years ago? Was there an M-S? Numbers don't lie. Also, we should ban the Detroit Free Press and Grand Rapids Press. They both have recent West Michigan steelhead stories. I'm about sick of this silly debate. 

http://www.freep.com/sports/outdoors/steel18_20040318.htm

http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/statewide/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/107887561912150.xml

http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/statewide/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/107589313017170.xml


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## mondrella

It is really up to us to police ourselves. There are many who only fish once or twice a year for steel or salmon due to thier hectic lives. 
I as a person who nearly lives on a trout stream can only ask that they think before they post about small out of the way place. or section of a popular river that is overlooked. If you are lucky enough to come across such a place be very very vague about it. It is O.K. to share the experience and should be encouraged. Believe it or not half the high you experience is finding out about something on your own. Why ruin that for someone else? 

I once asked a member of this site for some info in person. He was more than willing to share that info and told me remind him once he got home and he would get it for me. I never followed through with it. It was not out of laziness or forgetting. I saw that I had struck a nerve. I already had fished this water to some degree and was trying to plan a trip out. On my way home I decided not to get that info. I wanted to experience the same type of thrills he has on this little known river. I call it respect not just for him but the river and my future experiences on it.


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## hypox

If you want censorship move to Iraq. Or I guess the country formerly know as Iraq.

That why this country is so great. You post it because YOU CAN.

I am amazed how many people want there rights taken away.


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## Steve

Yeap, thanks for those link to the articles in the papers. They are online too and have much larger reach and numbers than we ever will.

http://www.detnews.com/2003/nnrochester/0305/20/k04-168164.htm

http://www.detnews.com/2000/oakland/0004/30/c04-46099.htm


I just hope that all of you who have shown your concern for the resources in this thread take the time to email the editors of The News as well. I just have a feeling that those articles may have seen a few more visitors than anything on this site.


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## Bluegill Bob

I think I have the answer to the overcrowding on the west side rivers..... Everyone from the East half of the state, stay off our side.


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## hypox

Bluegill Bob, now there is a solution I can live with!


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## ozzgood2001

i am not a river fisherman but am a member of this site and an avid outdoorsman. in my OPINION the way steve is handling it with only major rivers being named and no holes or spots, is a great way to do it !! i dont see any need for change! again.... this is my opinion...which i am entitled to i think


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## [email protected]

WOW! I just glanced at this thread, only reading a few comments from a few of the people I know. I'd say that every single one of you needs to just go fishing. You guys have way too much time on your hands, it would most certainly be better spent waist deep in a stream instead of worrying about things that ain't gonna change... 

My 2 cents, and with out a doubt, my final look at this thing! Now I know why I normally only post, but almost never read anything that doesn't have the PM in its title.

Tight lines all!
_Steve_


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## mondrella

I am not for censorship and if my post came off that way I apoligize. Being vague about large rivers is totally different than saying just upstream from Pine st. landing I went 3 for 5 is quite different. There are sections of many large rivers that are overlooked for steel. One of my best big brown trout spots is on a popular steelhead river. Where those fish are at I can count on my one hand the number of people I see fish that section in the past 4 years and yes it is loaded with steel that seldom see a hook. 
My real point is robbing one the true joy of the experience and satisfaction one feels by accomplishing something on thier one. Those in need of instant gratification are missing out on a big part of life.


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## Beave

I just wanted to post in this thread too, it's the biggest in a long time!


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## quest32a

Wow this thread had to have set a record for most posts in day. I think there was a lot of good info posted, on both sides of the argument. I don't know what the answer is but apparantley is going to get hashed out here one way or another. I actually don't have too much more to say other than what has already been said here. 

I guess now we just need to come up with a solution. I kind of liked Ralf's suggestion from earlier in this thread. And Tangledknots suggestion about having a disclaimer put up as a reminder for a post was also a good idea. Any other suggestions? Other than what we have already tried ie banning the names of all rivers.


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## Sam22

Being a dedicated troutsman I feel I should chime in. I agree that mentioning specifics would draw more attention to specific rivers than I like to see, it must be considered however that this site is full of some of the most ethical and conservation minded sportsman I have ever come across, "our" people are the better half. "My" river the boardman sees tons of pressure regardless, nothing is secret or sacred really. I saw leave restrictions and methods of censorship just as they are, use discretion guys. I won't be giving up my favorite holes any time soon. Good luck Whit


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## phlyphisher

It seems to me that the decrease that the local shops have seen could be attributed to the major influx of the big chain stores since the early 1990s. Gander, Cabelas, MC, Galyans, etc all have to impact your customer base if only for the fact that people seek huge selections that smaller shops just can't afford to have on hand. 

Some people are just too dense to realize that they can buy the same St. Croix rod from you or Pappy's or other local shops for the same price but with ten times the customer service. 

Not to belabor a point, but the die hards I know are usually loyal to THEIR shop, the place where the owners and workers know you by name and have a repoire with you. I know that I am that way. I'm sure that you guys know who your regulars are and treat them well. The couple-weekends-per-season angler isn't as loyal as the die hards, I'd suspect.


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## mickey

http://www.detnews.com/2004/wayne/0402/20/d03-69757.htm


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## Sixshooter

I fail to see how that in any way supports your argument Mickey!!

I bet if you asked those people they would love to have the backing of such an internet site.

Think about it this way...If fishing is never promoted. Then people wont do it...Money for the DNR stocking programs gets cut more than it is now because people aren't fishing anymore and buying liscense. 

Now there is no trout fishing anywhere...

You have to keep the interest...It may be a double edge sword but even those weekend anglers support the fishery you are hoping they don't find.


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## mickey

My point is that I can find news articles about watersheds NOT on the overall list as well. Now, hopefully you fellas do not "fail to see" any longer.


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## STEINFISHSKI

Bye Mike. See you on the river.


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## Steve

Thanks for pointing out that article on Johnson's Mickey. I'm sure we could find others for just about any river/stream in the state. Again I hope those of you who think they should not be mentioned send an email to the newspapers as well.


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## ESOX

Enough of this childish tit for tat crapola.
Let's get back to business. IIt is obvious to even the most casual of river fishermen that hordes of people on a smaller river will wreak havoc with not just the immediate fish numbers, but to the habitat as well. I think that a warning header on each forum is appropriate. I also like the idea of allowing postings only on large rivers, with average flow being the gauge by which we judge what is allowed. Now how many CFS would one consider to be an appropriate minimum flow to allow naming a river?


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## FREEPOP

my crystal ball was glowing


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## unregistered55

Very good idea Paul...BUT...Look at this page and river flows...The Grand for instance is Higher than the PM...and most of them are pretty close in "Mean" or Average CFS...

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/mi/nwis/current/?type=flow

There needs to be a better way to choose which rivers are big enough to withstand internet posting pressure and in my opinion it is what has been mentioned...

NW Rivers, NE Rivers, SW Rivers and SE River. Most rivers in each area are the same as far as when Salmon, Steelhead, Sucker and such runs start...the fishing methods are the same other than the fact that larger rivers might fish a little different than smaller ones, color selection can be different but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to read a post such as this and get a buttload of info that will help them catch fish:

" This weekend I fished a Larger NW River for Steelhead. The flow was up and the water a little on the cloudy side. This made my bright colors the hot ticket this weekend. The Steelhead are showing up but not in great numbers yet. My best presentation was bottom bouncing Chartruse Spawn Bags with Floaters. Here are the pics below:"

Basic, to the point and INFORMATIVE info that applies to all the Large NW rivers.

Here's the flipside:

" Today I fished a small stream for trout on a NW River. The flow was average and the water crystal clear. I try alot of different techniques but the killer one was 3lb leader line and worms fished bouncing slowly along the bottom."

Again no river named and enough to tell the general conditions of the river in the NW Section of the state.

Why is this so hard to see? Seems pretty simple to me but maybe I just have a simple mind.


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## Shoeman

I'm going to make one final post on this subject

I can see Steve's point and do not blame him for his reluctance to reduce the river reports. After all this is the fabric of the site. We share info and plan trips through this venue. 
Some has stated that I have a hidden agenda and some of the emails and PM?s from the management have proven that. I don?t think my agenda is hidden. By now my agenda should be quite obvious..lol

Allow me to reiterate my original post. It's about the lack of parking and the finite amount of holes on our small rivers that are accessible on Public lands. If one were to take the example of the Rogue, which is positioned, in the middle of one of our larger urban centers and see the history of trespassing tickets and signs of enforcement it gives you an idea that crowds create a problem. 

My beef was with the closure of any threads that pertained to this subject. They ended up locked up. Why? More than likely because the replies were under-handed stabs at either the management and/or other members. I still see this animosity and sarcasm in this one.

To say that posts have no impact is a joke and the guys that believe that are fools. Any publicity creates a curiosity, be it in newspapers, on Trost, in magazines and in books.
We can't stop those, but it can be curbed in here. After all we do consider ourselves sportsmen and should be smarter than the other media outlets trying to gain monetarily.

Now that I have created certain awareness about something I consider an issue, I guess my job is done.

I hope the site can survive this division and continue serving the outdoor public for many years to come.

Thanks for all the replies.


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## chromium

I have an Idea.

Please dont think that Im gullible enough to think that this will make EVERYONE happy. But, it may slow down some of the bickering.

Break the river forums up from what they are today into two separate forums.

1  Michigan Rivers Forum

2  Michigan Protected Rivers Forum.

Management of MS can take the point and with ample input, make decisions on what rivers go into what category. I feel that CFM is a great starting point. Once these rivers are in the Protected Forum then make it perfectly clear what can/cant be posted in there. Also, that posts relative to GPS Info, Holes, are scrutinized by the moderating staff.

As far as the rest of the rivers go, post away, and the moderators should let this ride.

This site used to be based upon Information and Education and in my opinion it should stay that way regardless of how big it gets. Granted, pain comes with growth but with prior planning up front that Info and Education can be achieved and even enhanced. To shut down this info for people that just want to learn would be a travesty. I had two people at work yesterday seek me out for information. Both were new to steelhead fishing and I was glad to oblige. But, I sure as hell didnt send them to the Prairie. LOL

In closing, I should communicate my stance on this topic. I am for protecting some of these rivers that cant handle the pressure. I am against shutting down the entire process of education and the communication of information on the larger rivers in the state that can handle the pressure.

And if you think that this site doesnt contribute to fishing pressure, youre sadly mistaken. Were not the ONLY ones that contribute to pressure. The newspapers do it too. However, the Well, everyone else is doing it mentality doesnt fly.

My .02


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## Jimbos

What about a pop-up when someone clicks on a thread either to reply to a thread already in the forum, or when starting a new thread in a cold water fishing forum stating which rivers are permitted to be mentioned and which are not?

"Warning, you have entered a forum where to post specfic information could create crowded conditions in the locations you fish. It is against site rules to mention a specific hole or run on any river, and you may not mention these rivers at all,xxxxxxx,xxxxxx,xxxxxxx,xxxxx,xxxxx,so
if your post pertains to the above mentioned river, please do not name it and just mention a general geographic area"

?????????????????


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## quest32a

Fine by me Jimbos.


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## kingfisher2

WOW, interesting thread and I must comment.....

I not only speak as a true angler, but also as a land owner with direct access to just under 7 miles of stream..Many members of this site have killed many soldiers around my campfires and enjoyed the untouched woods and grounds, not to mention wading a stream with limited pressure. Talking about fishing pressure, Bedfords book started it for my PRIVATLY owned land. 

I noticed a tremendous increase in the LITTER and trespassing when this book was published. In fact, I have had a couple cabin breakins since.....It's funny that while fishing with Mickey, he informed me, "I almost backed my vehicle off this bank" When asked how he found this area,.....BEDFORDS Book. Bedford mentions the exact roads that start and end my property as being an area with the best fishing.....

This site has brought many new friends and given me much more ammunition to beat mother natures finest....I have posted many reports with content only to help my fellow fisherpersons. I have had a few posts deleated...One for mentioning a 1-2 mile stretch of water, while trying to help a young angler that many of us has mentored. The other post gave me several PM's because of the city name I live in being close to a certain area.....MY POINT IS...information is the most valuable commodity out there...the more we help each other, the more money is spent in what we love. But it can be done with a little more tact...without the names of rivers. Technique is what counts....

I feel strongly about protecting the names of rivers and feel 
a simple reminder to the newbies about this will solve alot of grief for many of us, fisherpeople and landowners.

As mentioned, we have lost the posting of several experienced anglers here. I miss their posts. Mickey, I hope you re-evaluate your final post and continue to add to the valuable information here. I hope this thread will allow those responsible to take a close look at the pros and cons and make a decision based on the best for all..........Leave the names of rivers out.....

Now, how about a group hug! 

Marc


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## Brian S

> _Originally posted by Brian S _
> *What if there was a "Warning" msg that came up before anyone posted a new thread, kinda like the message that asks "Are you sure you want to log off?", that reminded people of the possible impact their post may make on the crowding issue? It would at least make people pause and think about how specific they want to get before posting.
> 
> This would help any new members from getting too specific and serve as a reminder for the others. *


N.O., I see what you mean about overlooked posts, hey wait a minute, am I on EVERYONE's Ignore List?


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## unregistered55

Did somebody just say something? 

I saw it earlier Brian...Marc just help me put it into perspective....something he said reminded me how all the newbies responded to my PM's and I said to myself. " Self, that might really work!" If anything it's a start at making this whole subject better!


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## Steve

Thanks for the positive input Ralf and John. Those ideas are worth looking at. 

As for Don and your statment about Ginos, I can't believe the hypocracy there. After you take a MOD TV crew out there for countless thousands to watch!

And I'll say it again. For those of you with concern about what get's published here, I sure hope you express the same concern to say.. Bedford the next time you see him signing a book, or The Detroit News the next time they publish and article. You also have to look at the flip side of the coin. Some of the news articles and posts here that create awareness also create an urge for people to get off their butts and DO SOMETHING to help the resource and put something back.



> I noticed a tremendous increase in the LITTER and trespassing when this book was published. In fact, I have had a couple cabin breakins since.....It's funny that while fishing with Mickey, he informed me, "I almost backed my vehicle off this bank" When asked how he found this area,.....BEDFORDS Book. Bedford mentions the exact roads that start and end my property as being an area with the best fishing.....


And you won't find that kind of specific information here *ever*. Thanks for revealing that information Marc.


I also hope you talk to other websites operators. These posts would not be allowed on our site under our *current rules*:
http://steelheadsite.com/reports/michigan/messages/22877.html
http://steelheadsite.com/reports/michigan/messages/22772.html
http://steelheadsite.com/reports/michigan/messages/22673.html
http://steelheadsite.com/reports/michigan/messages/22574.html
And there are many, many, more on some of the rivers that are in question here. Think they don't get many reads over there.... think again. Perhaps what I should do is just eliminate the statistic that shows how many times a thread has been read over here.... in fact that's a pretty good idea.


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## FREEPOP




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## mickey

> Thanks for the positive input Ralf and John. Those ideas are worth looking at.


I have tried countless times to give positive input on this subject and have only been met with consistent disrespect. Now all of a sudden, it is starting to sink in. Hmmmm. It has always been worth looking at.


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## Jimbos

> As for Don and your statment about Ginos, I can't believe the hypocracy there. After you take a MOD TV crew out there for countless thousands to watch!


OHHH,,,,,but that's different.


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## Shoeman

Don? I haven't seen a post from him since November. 

Steve, I also agree with Brian S' idea. It's worth a shot without compromising the flow of info.
Can't hurt

I really appreciate you considering some type of change. 

Thank You


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## ESOX

> _Originally posted by Shoeman _
> *Don? I haven't seen a post from him since November.
> *



AHHH the luxuries of retirement.


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## Ranger Ray

You guys keep debating that way you wont be in the good hole when I get there in 25 minutes. FISH ON!


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## ESOX

It appears as though the maelstrom has lost it's momentum. I for one am glad to see that we managed to make it through relatively intact. I think Danno-9 and Whit will be glad to see this thread reach it's final conclusion. Next time we have a re-run of "As The Egg Sucking Leech Drifts" I would suggest we pick on another set of mods, not our two most senior (and esteemed) gentlemen.


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## chromium

> _Originally posted by ESOX _
> * I would suggest we pick on another set of mods, not our two most senior (and esteemed) gentlemen. *


Your wit (SP) kills me. LOL

I think you can handle it you old fart(s). (And that's no pot shot)


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## FREEPOP

Someone missed thier nap time. 








(I couldn't resist  )


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## chromium

> _Originally posted by northern_outdoorsman _
> *And someone tell Ralf to take me off ignore unless he is being funny... *


I asked............he said no.


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## Shoeman

You guys kill me. I haven't laughed this hard since.... I ran across that pink Binky and gave it to Dr Suess

Chromium, go to your room. No internet tonight.


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## FREEPOP

The internet nazi .............. NO ITERNET FOR YOU, COME BACK 3 MONTHS


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## WALLEYE MIKE

> _Originally posted by northern_outdoorsman _
> *There you go "Assume'ing" again Steve...1st of all I would never take a MOOD film crew to a zoo like that which is what it was after the Thread here. We went to FAIR HAVEN and guess what? After that showed aired Fair Haven's parking situation Stayed the same!
> 
> Yeah, thats because its always full. Been like that for many years. Plus its only got what probably 40 parking places. LOL Believe me its been a zoo out there on the weekends for 30 years.
> 
> I got a solution for the over crowding of "our" streams. Those with SS# that end in 1 or 2 get to fish on Mondays. 3 and 4 on Tues.......... LOL
> 
> 
> In the early 70's went to the Paint up in Bald Mountain, couldn't find a spot to fish. Was opening day but thought everyone in the state had the day off. Things don't change much in 30 years do they.
> 
> 
> Don, you fish 3-4 times per week? Man, I don't even have that much time and my wife tells me that I'm semiretired!!! LOL
> Good way to relax tho after a hard day.*


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## JWF

I just spent about two hours reading this thread, and totally feel compelled to post my thoughts. They are as follows: 

I REALLY NEED TO FISH!

I admit that I have fished a few rivers because of posts from this site, but I have also avoided a few rivers for the same reason. I think the rules are totally reasonable as they are. But, while I think naming rivers is not a big deal, letting "newbies" know that only naming rivers included the headings under is region is a good idea. Might save this kind of thread coming up every fall and spring. 

Good luck on the rivers guys.


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## plugger

The diversity of this site is its strength and weakness. Living where I do and having the experience I do. I visit this site and have dropped by the lands inn a few times for the people not the fish. The dynamics of the groups I have met include but are not limited to 

Sfk: the engineer could explain all things thecnical. Whit: He could write about spreading manure on a rainy morning and you would wish you were there.
Mechaicalhead: Solid fisherman, great photos esp his kids.
Stelmon: Ah the inocence of youth.
Shoeman : People person, if it wasnt for the steelhead thing he'be govenor. 
Splitsot: old man river, and the member I run into on the river. 
Riverman: an agriculural background and a love of the river mixed with common sense. 
On and on the list goes of people who could form the nucleus of a great group and lead by example and compromize. If you guys cant find a way to have fun here its your own fault, the nessesray qualities are here to have a great site.


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## Whit1

Mike,
WOW!

Thanks for the kind words....I think they were kind!!!......LOL!

SFK, Shoeman, Splitshot, Dryfly, Chef, MechHead.......Those are the guys who welcomed me into the site, awesome sportsman all. Sh***t, where's my mind going?????


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## quest32a

> _Originally posted by plugger _
> *The dynamics of the groups I have met include but are not limited to
> *


You forgot to mention a fish kicking sob.......... 

always a pleasure running into you mike, and i appreciate your thoughts in this thread.


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## huntsummbucks

I am sort of new to this site and i know that my opinion might not count for much, but here goes. If a person wants to share his or her info, they shouldnt feel pressure from others not to. Some people do not have the time due to family, job, or other reasons to go every day until we can find a "hot spot". I will say this...I appreciate it when the more seasoned fisherman on this site help out others who cant get out as much. The days i do go out at least i have an idea because of their help. Lets concentrate on blasting our fellow fisherman that pollute, litter, trespass, poach,and the list goes on and on. It sounds like some of you are awfully greedy when it comes to these spots. Remember this... even though some people get info on where to go, they still have to catch these fish on their own. This is a great state we live in with plenty of room for all of us if we just use our heads. To me it is no fun fishing alone and alone is where most greedy people end up. TAKE A KID FISHING and teach them ethics so future generations can enjoy this water wonderland.


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## SALMONATOR

I sure wouldn't have expected to see myself jumping into this one again, but I had a thought tonight. Yes, that in itself was amazing to me too.  Okay, So let's say the big Manistee river makes the list of tribs acceptable to post on if it comes to that. Hmmmmmm. I don't have a problem in the world with a guy who has a great day at Tippy in the peak of the salmon or steelhead run (or even in the middle of summer for that matter) and wants to share his story. It's already everywhere by the time you read it on this site, but a few miles upstream it may be a different situation. 

I don't think that I'd much like seeing reports from Cameron Bridge or Deward in the open forums any more than I like seeing reports on the Boardman, Prairie creek, the Baldwin, the pigeon, or the Fox (for example). Where do you draw the line? I AGREE that some things need to change about the way we share information on this site. I'm just not sure of which suggestions I agree with. 

So far Shoeman's stream-flow idea is at the top of my list. I also like the suggestion to restructure the river forums into protected rivers and rivers to be posted on. In any event, the current policy of not naming specific holes, GPS #'s, etc. should remain in effect for all rivers (location or size not withstanding) at te very least IMO.

Please don't be too hard on me fella's. It is, afterall, Friday night, and I've had a couple (what did you expect from the SALMONATOR).  

Al


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## Whit1

> _Originally posted by huntsummbucks _
> *I am sort of new to this site and i know that my opinion might not count for much, but here goes.*


HSB,
New member or long time member, your opinion is valid and needs to be spoken. Keep visiting the site and posting your thoughts and ideas. New or experienced, we all learn from each other.


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## PrtyMolusk

Howdy-

MAN! I've spent a couple of days reading this thread, and y'all have me wondering whether or not it's worth it for me to get into fishing......

I will say this, though: It does my heart good to see that hot, in-your-face contentiousness can give way to reasoned, intelligent compromise.

It's why this site is a second home for me.

Still glad to be a part of it.


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## kingfisher2

I still do not understand why people feel it's so important to indicate the name of a river. I am an avid reader of this site and have been for 3 years. River names have nothing to do with the enjoyment I get out of here. Its the technique, the story behind the experience, the pictures.....etc....

Spending 20 years in Government Relations, I know there is not one rule that is going to make everyone happy. Nobody likes censorship and it seems that's what many here feel this whole thread is about...it's not.

It's about protecting our resouces and has nothing to do with greed. 

STEVE, it looks to me that you are very defensive here about this entire subject. Posting links from other sites has nothing to do with what we are trying to get accomplished here. The main reason most of us are here, is do to the civil communication, the information sharing, the friendships........the unique way this site is put together...don't put other sites in the same catagory as this one...you have given us something special here...WHY COMPARE IT TO OTHERS????? There's no comparism...

I do want to add, the moderators have done a great job keeping this thread civil and the EX-moderators continue to make me chuckle......

Marc


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## nymph

Very interesting thread and certainly a good topic of discussion. Regardless of what some may say, I think most everyone has handled themselves pretty well. With that said, one of the first things that clicked into my mind when I started reading this thread was "growing pains". It is obvious that this site is not the same now as it was upon inception. There are more members. There are more visitors. There is more information. What was once a simple post depicting the river name and location is now a "touchy" subject, and rightfully so. The information used to only be shared by a few, but is now shared by many. Is this a bad thing? I'm not really sure. On one hand, I assume that was the whole intent of this site, for sports-persons to share information. On the other hand some people &/or locations are being pimped. I don't believe there will ever be a "one-size fits all" solution, but that's why we're discussing the issue. At the end of all the comments, sarcasm and rages, I think some common ground will be struck.

In the meantime, be civil to one another. Whether you're an "old timer" or a "newbie", a "hard-core" or a "weekend warrior", we're all on the same side and deserve the same respect. Keep up the discussion and lets try to find that common ground.

just my .02


nymph


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## TheFlyfisher

If you want to keep the rivers and honey holes a secret don,t post on them. But if you think that this is going to stop huge amounts of people fishing them your crazy. Look at the Clinton River, I have fished it when it was a chemical disaster 40 years ago. There were no fish there so to speak and the ones there were uneatable. When people started to see what was happening to the river they started to clean it up. Look at our schools now, I know so many from Sterling Heights and Shelby that have regular cleanups and are studing the water. Thoes people clean it and fish it. It,s a park also where many people come to walk and fish. They watch you fish and see you catch fish and they will be there the next day. 
There are many sites besides this one that report on our rivers and where they are being caught. I was on 4 sites this morning that are telling where they are catching them on the P.M, the Big M, ect. And reporting what you catch and where you catch them I can,t see what the problem is. I,m glad to report where and what I caught so other people can do the same. And one day when I go there and someone is fishing my "honey hole" so what, if I can,t find another place to fish and catch one, I shouldn,t be fishing because I don,t know nothing. None of these rivers are secrets, there not your river, and you won,t stop the people to fish them. 
I was at Yates yesterday, 15 people fishing, 30 people walking with there kids and the kids asking there parents to bring them fishing there this weekend. I can see people not telling there honey holes but not where they are fishing. It,s just silly. And the more people we have the more fishing pressure we will have.
I worry more about the people who fish and pollute our rivers and the trash we see on the Clinton and others. Worry about that because if it continues your little honey holes won,t be to sweet in the near future.


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## kingfisher2

Flyfisher, please read the entire thread....


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## Jimbos

> _Originally posted by kingfisher2 _
> *Flyfisher, please read the entire thread.... *


What's the deal Marc, he's just stating his views?
From the drift of fly's post he's just saying even if this site is censured it's not going to stop people from fishing the holy trout waters.


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## TheFlyfisher

Thank you Jimbo,s: That is all I,m saying and to censure a site is crazy. People come to this site to learn about fishing because we usually tell them where to fish in the general areas we do. They come to this site to learn ways we fish for a certain fish. It,s a learning site for fisherman and to get people into fishing. I come to this site to find out where they are biting and what on and so do alot of other people. 
Isn,t it about trying to get more people involved in fishing that so many say they do?? The people who want to keep it a secret which Paint Creek, Clinton River, and Black River aren,t secret places just like Pere Marquette and the Sable. The only problem is they don,t want people fishing there little honey holes. I say to bad. More people are fishing and more people getting into fly fishing. There are hundred of sites from Michigan and other states that tell you about the rivers we fish. They tell you what to use, where to fish, and at what time. To censure a site about the fishing areas we fish and someone comming on and saying where there spots are and posting is not harming anyone. People will go to another site to find all there info because believe it or not there are other sites out there just as good as this one. 
Write into the fishing shows, call Lakeside Fishing Shop, B.B.T who keep us informed about the bite and what they are catching them on and tell them to stop showing pictures where they are fishing. The best thing I like reading is from B.B.T and his reports. 
They don,t tell there honey holes and don,t have to because people who fish it no where they are. And remember people have fish it for years before you came along. 
As far as the Clinton no secrets there or Paint Creek . Been there and I fished over 40 years. Heavely fished because of the Cider Mill on weekends and has never changed. Got cleaner because of people who fish it and our kids who clean it on a regular bases and the studies on the water. And your seeing more fisherman everywhere because of all the layoffs, and job losses.
To the ones who are greedy to share there rivers and streams and what they use to catch them I feel sorry for you people who aren,t willing to share what isn,t yours in the first place. 
Saw a guy yesterday thought he was a pro flyfisherman at the Clinton yelling at a man by the dam for walking up to the water. Told him he was scaring the fish away. 30 people walking by the water and he had to yell at this guy who by the way gave it to the fisherman real good. If he wanted to be left alone he shouldn,t of been fishing there. The best part the jerk got mad and was comming up the bank and broke his rod tip. The pro became a jerk over nothing.


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## kingfisher2

No offense and I should of been clearer. I'm not talking about censorship (which was clearly explained in above posts) I'm talking about some folks using caution when posting, that's all. You are correct that many rivers will have the crowds no matter what. These are not the bodys of water we're talking about here.

Putting a reminder flag up for a new poster is not censorship, it's education.

Marc


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## Steve

I've put a sticky at the top of all the river forums as a reminder our of policy. I will add a pop-up but that will take some more time as doing it on a per-forum basis will take a little doing and may best be delayed until our upgrade to forums version 3.0

Thank you ALL for the input on this. It's an emotional topic and one that we all feel very strongly about and that's why we butt heads over it from time to time. We ALL care or we wouldn't be reading the posts here.

I did a little bit of "putting out fires with gasoline" on this thread and for that, I am sorry.


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## stelmon

Woo! What an interesting read. Now for my opinion 

Kingfisher2, good point about the rigs and such. As many know I have a hard time with steelhead. Over the years of fishing certain streams I have given up on finding out what rivers the fish are in. I dont care! Its the techniques and rigs I am after in the post I know when certain fish are going to be in the rivers and when there not going to be. For an EX. Last week Kingfisher2 posted about a certain technique in one of his post. I KNOW what river he was fishing and were on the opposite side of the state. I went down to the river near me with that technique and landed a nice steelhead in a stream opposite of his stream. If it werent for kingfisher posting that technique, I wouldnt have caught that fish. 

Although it looks as if were never going to get all rivers not to be named I like what steve has done with the forum headers. Although I dont agree with the Clinton being in there, I will continue PMing anyone that post on it asking not to. There are only a few access sites on that river and theyre always getting pounded when the run is on. Why add to it? Everyone I have ever PMed has understood and I usually meet with him or her on the river and develop some type of friendship. Thats why there is rarely a second post by someone on the Clinton. Everyone says well, the site and this site tell reports and does nothing to the stream. Most of those reports are on bigger streams and I have seen what posting on the internet does to the Clinton. One fish caught in a post and everyone and there brother and sister is down there the next day. There was no articles out on the river at the time. Heck, Ive been checking out the DNR reports and they havent mentioned one thing about the Clinton. I havent fished it in a month and I know how good or bad the fishin is through good friends. Not through any site and whether the fish are there or not, I will be fishing it when I get home. I think all that wants to should go along with this method if theyd like to. 


All those articles posted dont mention one thing about a fishing adventure on a small stream or how great the fishin was. Most of them are posting on how a small stream might have possibilities in the future. 

I like what feeshermann has to say. He has some very good ideas.

Personally, I think that pole a few months ago was a fluke. There were people in there who either dont post reports or never fish the rivers. I know everyone has an opinion but for those who dont even fish the river, how do you know what is best for it?? You dont unless youre a smarty-pants like our friend a few years back. I found all that info by researching some of the people who posted their opinion on that pole. Some knew what they are talking about, some dont. I dont know squat on bear hunting so if a touchy subject was voted on there you could bet I wouldnt post on it because I dont know what is best for the bear hunting in our great state. 

Over the last couple of months, some of the things said on this site has really pissed me off. But I do keep coming back. The techniques and rigs I learned help me coming back. Although, I have been fishing for awhile to the point I know what rivers are producing when and is not through this site, its from the people I fished with. I would have never known of the excellent steelhead run in river X unless I actually fished it or talked about it through PM with shoeman, northern_outdoorsman, mickey, quest32a or rat fink I dont trust reports on the internet unless its from people I have fished with or respect. Unfor. That isnt the same with other people. The fishing is hot at tippy, next day everyone is down there fishing. Not that I am an expert or something but after fishing for awhile, I have learned a lot about timing of runs and such. Ow, my head is starting to hurt.

Well, I hope some read my post. Usually they get over looked in a touchy subject like that but thats ok. I love and cherish are streams and hope there around for my grandchildren some day. I also hope there in better shape then they are now. 

My 2 cent


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## TrailFndr

I have to agree with Flyfisher on this one. It really makes no difference if you post or not post names and places. Many times on this thread, I have seen the term, LIMITED ACCESS...Due to that limited parking and access,and the limited numbers of people athat can park or fish at any given time, it really makes it seem that some of you want YOUR river for yourselfs. I can say this as a person whom rarely fishes rivers.

Whats next? not being allowed oto say the names of lakes, because the lots only hold 4-15 trailers?? Not being able to mention a particular recreation area that you hunted so as to avoid the pressure of other hunters??

Be real People. Lakes, Rivers, and recreation areas belong to ALL of us. If I go out and there is no parking available..I MOVE..its really very simple.

Going after the slobs that litter and destroy , and yes even over harvest the resourse would make much more sense. And yes, we ALL know that we have some of those on this site, although I hope I NEVER get the chance to fish with them. or Rather..THEY hope I don't...

If this is the course of things to come on this site, where names of places can not be mentioned...this site is DOOMED. Whether you like it or not, this IS a form of Censorship. Sure I agree its Steves Site, and he can do as he wishes...No arguement from me on that., But I think that this is the WRONG move, and heads in a dangerous direction. I always appreciated this site for the HELPFULNESS of posts, Hiding all info, helps NO ONE...other than YOU to have the place to YOURSELF.


So...I guess I'll just get out and go fishing on lake X, Y, or Z..and when the small parking lot on my local lake is full...I'll blame the INTERNET for posting the name, Instead of blaming those that like me, have limited TIME to get out into the great outdoors, due to work, family, and other obligations. Or better yet...lets blame those that have time and opprotunity to fish everyday... they seem to be the ones that want this censorship..Heck...may as well simply quit posting altogther..its heading in that direction anyway...


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## stelmon

Is it river names your after to see where the fish are? What if this site didn't exsist, what would you be doing then? Without rigs and technique I don't think anyone is going to be catchin fish. You need the last two things I said to catch fish on any stream. 

It's not about greed or wanting the river to ourself. It's more about preserving the resouce. Question is, how much people can a stream see a year without falling apart. Fish can always be planted, but can the side of the streams?


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## kingfisher 11

I really, really hate to do this. I have to agree with Trail on this one. 

The largest population of people on this site live in Zone three. I can see where the streams in the southern part of the state can be just way over fished. To the guys in the north your weekend warriors or flatlanders.

I grew up in the NW around the Jordan. I was fishing that long before many of the site members here became die hard trout fisherman. And I could not stand the weekend warriors.

I have come to the conclusion those days of having the whole river to yourself are gone. I believe this site could add some extra pressure. But trout fishing has really become popular. There are so many other sites that list the rivers and holes. That this does not even make a dent. Word of mouth or taking a buddy(s) with you does more damage then this site. We do it though because we like the sharing and companionship.

I like sharing the info. And I know just about everyone else here has learned from someone else. Not listing the river is going a little overboard. I will not give out an exact hole myself. I do like reading about the specific rivers.

Most of the guys who work will not be in your hole everyday. And if you think you are going to have the rivers and holes all to yourself on a weekend goodluck. It will only get more crowded and these are the sign of our times.

Its just like hunting in the state. There are a few good public land spots left for deer. Just harder and harder to find. I can't expect them to always be just my private spot. I have adjusted and now do 2-3 hunts out of state each year. I hunt local just to spend the time in the woods.

Listing the river at list helps the working man narrow down where he may go for the weekend. When I don't like the crowds I head out to the big water for steelhead. I have actually have really enjoyed this more over the last few years. No more fighting a fish and coming back to find two guys standing in your spot.

Its still Steve's site and he has the final say. If this is his decision I respect it.

If anyone wants info on some of the rivers in Northen MI. You can PM me. I wll give you any info I can to help you out. I may not give you the exact hole but you can bet I will get you close.


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## ozzgood2001

i'll chime in with my support for the way it is being handled only naming major rivers and no holes, protecting smaller fragile waters! i think most of us inland lake fisherman already abide by the unwritten rule if its a small pond or lake dont post a name just a area thats what i do check ice fishing threads for fowlerville area lakes if its a big water houghton or such ill post a name no problem. i see no problem in the way its handled, really just a happy medium trying to please the majority!!


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## stelmon

Hye ozz,
I believe thats what most of us are trying to get at. I could be wrong. Some of us would like to see a no naming policy but we all know thats not going to happen. Were just trying to protect the smaller streams like you and your smaller lakes. When I fish lakes, I rarely post a name or that lake unless it's huge like Lake superior or st clair, lol. The same goes with streams.


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## ozzgood2001

so everyone should be happy i think steve has done what everyone is trying to get at ,short of a no naming policy!! yeah lets rejoice!!  wheres is my pic of a dead horse being beat.....LOL couldnt resist sorry


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## stelmon

I could be wrong though. Everyone has to throw in there opinions. But I am wondering if some people just read to 1rst page and then post an opinion. but like I said, i like the policy but think some rivers shouldn't be on it. But thats my opinion.


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## ozzgood2001

i hear ya stelmon!!! but i guess its a dam good start at least

p.s. ok im bored of this thread no offense but im def. done here i think...reference back to the dead horse pic


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## stelmon

In reguards to that picture posted by shoeman earliar in that thread. That is actually me and I am looking at the fish down there saying "why won't you bite?" and "how come everyone is catching fish be me."


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## kingfisher2

I appreciate the moderators and Steve for allowing us to have this civil debate and then modifying the system. I really think some of the folks here that don't have alot of time to get out haven't really seen the impact of a post on a small-fragile stream.

People have to keep in mind one thing here, these are just reminders what your post can do. You will not be placed in front of a firing squad, you will not be imprisoned, you will not have your left nut cut off.....And remember, PMing an author of a post and asking them what river they were on will not only get the information you're looking for, but also possibly start a new friendship.

Marc


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## stelmon

Kingfisher couldn't have said it any better with his second paragraph!


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## Bookmaker

Gee I`m starting to feel quilty about posting my results on the mo.


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## Chuck1

The internet,and other media outlets are a force that will not go away. We as sportsman have to raise the white flag in defeat. It will never be a secret again. It is sad but true. One of my favorite summer salmon rivers "that I am sure you all know" I believe is a victim of to much exposure too. But whats done is done, much like a fired bullet , once its out of the barrel you can't call it back. I think a few of you called it like it is. You have to be prepared to change location, and or tactics to do like you used to do. I personally will not post on rivers TSS taught me the consequences of that long ago. If you chose to though that is your choice. It is AMERICA. Our resources are there to be used by everyone, regardless whether you or I like it. Today was actually the first time I think I even logged on to this particular forum, and I see some things never change. Face it , if you are on a hot spot on any given day enjoy it for what it's worth, because if you are seen , or tell the guy at the bar , or your best buddy chances are the crowd will be there on day two.


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## TSS Caddis

And the plot thickens... Just opened up my Michigan Out of Doors that came in the mail and guess who just outed every small Grand trib???????

I don't fault Steve for anything, he genuinly seems concerned with trying to appease everyone.

Nothing in this world will ever change though unless people voice their opinions. At one point snagging salmon was not considered wrong until peope spoke up. Just maybe if posting river specifics is discussed enough the tide may actually shift where people realize the impact and frown on it.

Until then people like JB and Sputnik will continue to pimp out ever fishery in pursuit of noteriety and money.


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## Steve

Ok everybody step away from your Michigan Out of Doors magazine.  

http://www.mucc.org/MOODMagazine.htm

Perhaps we are too restrictive.


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## FREEPOP

TSS Caddis, you shouldn't have posted that magazine's name, now all the book shelves will be crowded with anglers.


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## TSS Caddis

Doh!

Made me laugh, after all this hoopla to see old JB, listing all the Grand tribs and posting how he crushed the summer runs here and caught a bunch of 20" class browns there.


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## Steve

Better send your emails to JB and his publisher's now.


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## riverman

As long as mood was brought up, was the article written about trout fishing with bait a former member? Something about his name rang a bell. Riverman


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## FREEPOP

The last time I was in Ionia, I noticed that they had a nice message for JB there


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## thousandcasts




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## ESOX

In the words of Roberto Duran


"NO MAS, NO MAS!!!"


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## uniborn

I have avoided reading this post for a few days due to its length. I decided today to read through it in its entirety. All I can say is  . Isnt this an issue we could have discussed in depth back in January? Wow!!! I agree it is important but sheeesh! There are alot of fish out there to catch right now. I appreciate the crowds hangin out here and leavin them all to me but its gettin lonely out there, LOL! How bout we get out there and catch some fish!!! 

No offense meant to you Shoeman. I just thought Id throw in my imput. I posted back when this was going to be implemented as law. I wasnt for it. Now I think more and more about it. I could care less either way. To post or not to post is up to you Steve. I aint goin anywhere. And I will do my best to follow the rules you place.

I agree that an issue like this is good to be able to discuss without the jabs and eventual closing of the thread. I think this thread has done pretty good,with the exception of a few hick-ups. Anyway.....I am glad to be apart of this website regardless. 

uniborn


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