# Why have bird hunters statewide not rallied against the lake st. helen duck club?



## nickjitsu

For those whom are unaware, Lake St. Helen in St. Helen michigan (ten minutes north of west branch exit 222 on I-75) is a public lake which is closed to duck hunting to the public. I did some research on the situation and found that when the lake was formed the hunting rights of the lake were not sold with the property. These documents are still written in long hand at the county offices. Hunters near and far, no matter what you hunt, should be outraged by this decision. Isn't a situation like this exactly what america was trying to get away from in the first place? A federally owned bird, flying over state owned waters, which cannot be hunted by the public of whom pay for the management of that bird, the management of the water itself, and the renovations and maintenance of the beautiful state park facilities that LSH has to offer. This is a classic example of people in this country who are wealthy, well connected people, trying to limit down the hunting opportunities that the people have. It's a disgrace to America and so are the people who are a part of the duck club.


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## DecoySlayer

Read about riparian rights, those laws are likely coming into play there. Is the hunting banned on 100% of the lake or just out in front of private property? How about a link to the bans?


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## nickjitsu

Hunting is banned on 100% of the lake. I can't stand on my waterfront property and shoot a duck. In fact when I called the state about what may happen if I hunt it anyhow, they said that they would write a trespassing ticket. A trespassing ticket on public waters.


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## nickjitsu

DecoySlayer said:


> Read about riparian rights, those laws are likely coming into play there. Is the hunting banned on 100% of the lake or just out in front of private property? How about a link to the bans?


Hunting is banned on 100% of the lake. I can't stand on my waterfront property and shoot a duck. In fact when I called the state about what may happen if I hunt it anyhow, they said that they would write a trespassing ticket. A trespassing ticket on public waters.


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## eye-sore

I dont see how that would hold up. Land owners have exclusive rights. Trump for prez


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## John Singer

There are some legal reasons here: https://casetext.com/case/st-helen-shooting-club-v-mogle

The case goes back to 1904. 

I may have some more details in a book that is at my hunting camp.


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## nickjitsu

eye-sore said:


> I dont see how that would hold up. Land owners have exclusive rights. Trump for prez


Right wing republicans don't like public lands. That wouldn't help anything at all.


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## jonesy16

There are a million other lakes, and this law happens to be grandfathered in from long ago, maybe look somewhere else for birds. I doubt this is the holy grail of lakes to hunt in Michigan just becuase it's off limits to the public.


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## Gamekeeper

People forget that early in the 1900's, the "Corp" set about consolidating lakes and raising water levels to navigable levels all over Michigan. It created recreational opportunity, increased land values, and put people to work.
I don't think the LSH situation is all that unique.

It's just part of our state's history. 

It's a shame the OP didn't understand the situation before he closed.


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## Jerry Lamb

nickjitsu said:


> Right wing republicans don't like public lands. That wouldn't help anything at all.


This one does broad brush. Nice stereotyping too.


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## just ducky

John Singer said:


> There are some legal reasons here: https://casetext.com/case/st-helen-shooting-club-v-mogle
> 
> The case goes back to 1904.
> 
> I may have some more details in a book that is at my hunting camp.


Thank you. You beat me to posting this. This lake actually has it's own section in state law based upon this long past legal decision. And if you didn't know, the family of the late actor Charlton Heston was one of the original owners. I recall reading that he often came "home" and brought some very famous actors or politicians there to hunt.

Now if anyone knows our legislative process (unfortunately for me I work in it  ), it would take awfully deep pockets to hire lawyers to try to change the state law. Maybe Fieger will do it for free? (that's a joke son!). But this is not a fight I would be willing to take on, and I would suggest you just get over it and move on.


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## Barry McCockner

The hunt club legally aqquired the hunting rights on that lake over a hundred years ago and have kept them since. Is the OP suggesting that the govt should step in and strip the club of it's legal right to excercise those exclusive hunting rights? 

I'm pretty sure any property bought and sold along the shore of the lake is done so with clear documentation that the property does not include hunting rights on the water.


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## multibeard

If I remember right this ban was just renewed for another 100 years. Probably around the anniversary of the origanal ban.


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## nickjitsu

It shouldn't matter if LSH is the holy grail of birds or not. It's the context of the situation. A public lake that's dictated by a club. The books actually say that during hunting season the public cannot even boat or fish if it disrupts the activity of the birds. I am suggesting that the government should step in and take the rights away. One of the many things that make America so great is our public lands and the management actions that proper authorities take to insure that we have the lands and hunters rights that we all have.


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## craigrh13

It does seem a little odd that just the hunt club holds exclusive rights to the lake. I don't quite understand how that could possibly work. Sounds like someone paid off someone in the legal system.


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## jonesy16

nickjitsu said:


> It shouldn't matter if LSH is the holy grail of birds or not. It's the context of the situation. A public lake that's dictated by a club. The books actually say that during hunting season the public cannot even boat or fish if it disrupts the activity of the birds. I am suggesting that the government should step in and take the rights away. One of the many things that make America so great is our public lands and the management actions that proper authorities take to insure that we have the lands and hunters rights that we all have.


Looks at the bigger picture, there are dozens of spots that the government has stepped in, purchased with our money and have made into great hunting spots. Wigwam bay has several private hunt clubs, the larger one was sold to the state years ago and made into a dike managed unit and the state is currently looking at purchasing another club as we speak. Their aquisition of land is greater then the one lake you speak of which has been locked up for years.....get over it.


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## Lurker

nickjitsu said:


> This is a classic example of people in this country who are wealthy, well connected people, trying to limit down the hunting opportunities that the people have. It's a disgrace to America and so are the people who are a part of the duck club.


or it's a case of someone owning the whole lake originally, and smartly negotiating exclusive rights before he sold off parts of it. it's not a case of someone just recently buying it, and paying off someone to have exclusive rights. 

and apparently you own lake front property here. if the club didn't own exclusive rights, I gather all of us would be welcome to hunt from your property? guessing not.


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## John Singer

nickjitsu said:


> It shouldn't matter if LSH is the holy grail of birds or not. It's the context of the situation. A public lake that's dictated by a club. The books actually say that during hunting season the public cannot even boat or fish if it disrupts the activity of the birds. I am suggesting that the government should step in and take the rights away. One of the many things that make America so great is our public lands and the management actions that proper authorities take to insure that we have the lands and hunters rights that we all have.


A couple of other things that "make America so great" are the rule of law and private property rights.

Would you advocate the same for taking over all private property? I know of some great deer hunting properties. What your are advocating is against the rule of law and is unconstitutional.

There are other countries that may do this for you however.


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## Ken Martin

nickjitsu said:


> I am suggesting that the government should step in and take the rights away.


REALLY?!?!?!

You want the government to take the rights of property owners away from them for the public good? Read any good Karl Marx books lately?

My wife is from St. Helen I have spent the past twenty-five years watching ducks on that lake. But I imagine the conversation one hundred plus years ago went like this...

"You want to flood our duck club so people can boat? This is what it is going to cost you."


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## Far Beyond Driven

You should put your angst into getting the kill charts promptly posted at Harsen's Island, which is another public er private hunt club...


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## John Singer

nickjitsu said:


> They don't own the property, they only own the hunting rights from an agreement in the late 1800's


That is correct. Those hunting rights are their "property". They do not belong to you. You have been advocating for our state government to do something that is illegal, and unconstitutional.


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## nickjitsu

John Singer said:


> That is correct. Those hunting rights are their "property". They do not belong to you. You have been advocating for our state government to do something that is illegal, and unconstitutional.


And thats exactly what the European model is and why the government should do something about it. Only the rich can hunt in Europe. This duck club is so messed up and they sell 'Exclusive Hunting Rights' to the public, on a public lake, for a very hefty price. Thats not American.


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## Barry McCockner

nickjitsu said:


> They don't own the property, they only own the hunting rights from an agreement in the late 1800's


Yes, a LEGAL agreement. This thread is stupid. Your question was answered within the 1st couple of replies


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## nickjitsu

Barry McCockner said:


> Yes, a LEGAL agreement. This thread is stupid. Your question was answered within the 1st couple of replies


Then get off of it.


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## Divers Down

I'm with you Nick. 100 years was enough. Back to the people I say! Let the fat cats that renewed it join the public hunting world for a while. Besides what they did to their property/flooding it, was worth 200 years of repayment? Gimme a break. What would 200 yrs of lease $$ come up to?? Theres definitely a skunk in this wood pile.


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## nickjitsu

Divers Down said:


> I'm with you Nick. 100 years was enough. Back to the people I say! Let the fat cats that renewed it join the public hunting world for a while.


_This land is your land, this land is my land
From California to the New York Island
From the Redwood Forest to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and me._


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## Divers Down

nickjitsu said:


> _This land is your land, this land is my land
> From California to the New York Island
> From the Redwood Forest to the Gulf Stream waters
> This land was made for you and me._


..._unless you want to hunt LSH._
The forgotten verse


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## Gamekeeper

So, save your money, and buy them out.

Be grateful they don't pull the cork on your lake.


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## nickjitsu

Gamekeeper said:


> So, save your money, and buy them out.
> 
> Be grateful they don't pull the cork on your lake.


Yup. Because it's pretty easy to save 6 mil. Don't be ignorant.


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## nickjitsu

The agreement was written so log ago that the party's writing it were most likely illiterate in modern society.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

i'm pretty sure nick is a socialist...bernie fan nick?


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## Shiawassee_Kid

hate to see your thoughts on mineral rights. lol


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## hawgeye

Kinda like buying a car knowing it has a bad motor, then after you buy it, expect the owner to put a motor in for you, even though you agreed to buy it as is.


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## Jerry Lamb

Just remember: a government that can take/seize from Lake St. Helen duck Club, can take/seize, from you.
Some of you are posting yourselves out of invites to go hunting.


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## nickjitsu

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i'm pretty sure nick is a socialist...bernie fan nick?


I'll be down in Saginaw today, why don't you come meet me for a coffee and we can talk face to face about your thoughts on me? Or you can keep hiding behind your keyboard.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

nickjitsu said:


> I'll be down in Saginaw today, why don't you come meet me for a coffee and we can talk face to face about your thoughts on me? Or you can keep hiding behind your keyboard.


sure. what time?


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## Divers Down

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i'm pretty sure nick is a socialist...bernie fan nick?


Don't sweat him Nick, I get that same kinda post from shi at least twice a year.


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## Lurker

nickjitsu said:


> I'll be down in Saginaw today, why don't you come meet me for a coffee and we can talk face to face about your thoughts on me? Or you can keep hiding behind your keyboard.


I remember a post just like this from last year about this time.


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## nickjitsu

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> sure. what time?


In midland now. Whenever you want. I'll buy.


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## Jerry Lamb

nickjitsu said:


> In midland now. Whenever you want. I'll buy.


Just stop it. Anyone can believe in whatever they want but if you go public with a position prepare for criticism and know people will disagree.


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## nickjitsu

Jerry Lamb said:


> Just stop it. Anyone can believe in whatever they want but if you go public with a position prepare for criticism and know people will disagree.


Why am I getting attacked for this? I never said anything derogatory to anyone on here. Haha


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## AaronJohn

nickjitsu said:


> Why am I getting attacked for this? I never said anything derogatory to anyone on here. Haha


You suggested the government Strip the rights from innocent citizens. That my friend is derogatory in my book and you picked the wrong place to suggest such Bologna. 

There are so many places to hunt, man. Half of the fun is looking for new places to hunt and keeping your honey holes secret.


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## Jerry Lamb

I have a great suggestionfor everyone: take some kids hunting this weekend. Relax. Make it about them.
Leave the resentments and grievances at the dock. I just scheduled a procedure that they're taking 1/3 of my kidney out October 14. So focus on what matters.


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## Far Beyond Driven

Better opportunity than anyone on this thread I bet. It's the duck club having exclusive rights on public waters is my issue.


You're missing the point. The land was theirs to hunt long before there was any water there. Good for them.


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## Botiz

I've got to say, I'm having a hard time believing that I'm reading this. It's been an entertaining thread, but a head shaker for sure.


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## fsamie1

Good luck having a common sense discussion with Trump's supporters. It is a lost cause. They know everything they know, more than generals. In my opinion, they know what they know that is not much. Like trying to softening concrete.


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## Jerry Lamb

fsamie1 said:


> Good luck having a common sense discussion with Trump's supporters. It is a lost cause. They know everything they know, more than generals. In my opinion, they know what they know that is not much. Like trying to softening concrete.


Oh really?


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## Redranger

Jerry Lamb said:


> I have a great suggestion for everyone: take some kids hunting this weekend. Relax. Make it about them.
> Leave the resentments and grievances at the dock. I just scheduled a procedure that they're taking 1/3 of my kidney out October 14. So focus on what matters.


I've read this whole thread....this might be the best post of all. Great advice. Good luck with your procedure! I pray that all goes well.

It's obvious that we all share differing opinions, and more than likely no one's mind is going to be changed. It's just hard for me to fathom that there are those among us willing to cede authority to the government to tear up a legally binding agreement, regardless of age and confiscate private property, without cause (hunting rights, mineral rights, etc...they all have value and therefore should be considered private property). Every time something like this occurs, it sets precedent. It is a slippery slope.

And the disdain by many for the so-called "fat cats"...are we so jealous of those with more money, more property, more wealth than us that we are advocating the government to strip them of their legally acquired property? 

Has anyone had the privilege of visiting or fishing the Mason Tract??? I guess George Mason would be considered a "fat cat".. From Wikipedia:

"Following his death it was disclosed that Mason, a former president of Ducks Unlimited, had left a gift to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources consisting of 1,500 acres (6.1 km2) land with 14 miles (23 km) of shoreline along the Au Sable River. The gift was contingent that the area be used as a permanent game preserve, that no part shall ever be sold by the state, and that no camping be allowed in the area for 25 years. The Michigan DNR has continued to uphold the no camping restriction within the Mason tract.[12] In accordance with Mason's wishes, the tract remains free of all development with the exception of a simple log chapel that was constructed on the property by the Mason family in 1960."

Pretty generous "Fat Cat". How about we cede the government the right to tear up that decades old contract and do as they wish with the property??? I don't think so...


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## Lurker

Redranger said:


> And the disdain by many for the so-called "fat cats"...are we so jealous of those with more money, more property, more wealth than us that we are advocating the government to strip them of their legally acquired property?
> QUOTE]
> 
> apparently so


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## fsamie1

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i'm pretty sure nick is a socialist...bernie fan nick?


and I am pretty sure, guys with opposite view are Donald's fan. Not sure any of you are rich?? why do you support fat cats? just because government may interfere and take something from fat cats?


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## Lurker

fsamie1 said:


> and I am pretty sure, guys with opposite view are Donald's fan. Not sure any of you are rich?? why do you support fat cats? just because government may interfere and take something from fat cats?


not rich monetarily.
live in a mobile home park, not a big house in a upscale neighborhood like you.
what's wrong with being wealthy? never understood that mentality.


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## hawgeye

fsamie1 said:


> and I am pretty sure, guys with opposite view are Donald's fan. Not sure any of you are rich?? why do you support fat cats? just because government may interfere and take something from fat cats?


How do "Fat Cats" get their money? All of the successful people, business owners, ect. I have ever been around, tend to work harder and longer hours than your average Joe. That's why they have more! That's the American dream! The harder you work, the more you get.


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## lefty421

After reading this whinefest, I'm about to go out and shoot a grebe myself and post the pics asking what kind of duck it is, just to change the subject.


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## just ducky

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i'm not gonna read all 6 pages but....does this post come off as an entitlement issue by the original poster to anyone else? thousands of miles of other shore land to access throughout the state..more than any other state and hes worried about a club that negotiated the rights to their lake long before you were even gleam a in your daddies eye..or your granddaddies daddies eye....get over it.


an entitled 29 year old....to be exact!


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## Redranger

fsamie1 said:


> and I am pretty sure, guys with opposite view are Donald's fan. Not sure any of you are rich?? why do you support fat cats? just because government may interfere and take something from fat cats?


because if they can take it from "fat cats", they can take it from "skinny cats" too...


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## nickjitsu

just ducky said:


> an entitled 29 year old....to be exact!


I don't believe you're tough enough to talk about me like that.


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## Lurker

so how did the meet and greet go?


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## jwinks

hawgeye said:


> How do "Fat Cats" get their money? All of the successful people, business owners, ect. I have ever been around, tend to work harder and longer hours than your average Joe.


This is not my experience. There are a lot of people who are small business owners who do pretty well, and often work their butts off, but "fat cats" does not refer to people like that. It refers to the people who make ten times that. Those people make more money just sitting at home a day than most of you do working all week. I think the hardest working people are the ones who work 80 hours a week at a hard manual labor job because they need to work overtime to afford their humble house payment. And they go home and fix their own cars and cut their own grass on the weekends because they can't afford to pay people for all of that. Those people can't afford to purchase land, but they can still take their one week off per year and go hunt all the public hunting spots in Michigan, or fish on all the public lakes. I think this is the American Dream. When you go out onto Saginaw bay on opening day of duck season, you and the fat cats are equals. They can't buy those ducks, and I think that's great. Unfortunately this St. Helen thing happened 100 years ago, before people realized the importance of public lands and public hunting. Eventually, I believe the state of Michigan will buy them out, but not today, when 99% of hunters could care less about hunting lake st Helen.


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## AaronJohn

View attachment 225399


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## just ducky

View attachment 225401


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## John Singer

Ken Martin said:


> Show me if I am wrong but they still do. I don't think the 450 foot rule has anything to do with that.


See p. 25 of the Waterfowl Digest. Years ago, riprarian owners and their guests were exempted from that rule.


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## Matt24324

Lurker said:


> if you had a way-back machine why settle for just a county?


Thats all I need


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## Ken Martin

John Singer said:


> See p. 25 of the Waterfowl Digest. Years ago, riprarian owners and their guests were exempted from that rule.


They can shoot off their back porch as long as someone else's house isn't within 450 feet.


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## DecoySlayer

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> so is this about hunting opportunity or hate for the rich people? I will say this, I was poor and hunted a LOT....was main reason why I was poor. I had no problems finding spots to hunt all my poor life. I've hunted with a lot of "rich" guys too....some of those rich guys hired this poor guy to take them hunting even.



No, that's not what I meant.

As those with the money begin to lease up the private property, which is legal, the amount of available hunting land for the "Masses" dwindle. Then, in the fullness of time, as things change, the country becomes more and more urban, there will someday, again within 50 is my guess, hunting will be outlawed on first public land, then all land.

The elite few however will still hunt if they chose. No one will stop them, they are too powerful.

In England, at least when I lived there, the land owner was taxed on the estimated amounts of game/fish, etc, on their land. They leased it out, paid TAXES on that lease money etc.

Those with privilege, and extreme money, will always be able to do as they please. Always been that way, always will be.

(my hunting helped keep me poor too! LOL!)


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## Shiawassee_Kid

Ken Martin said:


> They can shoot off their back porch as long as someone else's house isn't within 450 feet.


or they have permission from those within 450 feet.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

DecoySlayer said:


> No, that's not what I meant.
> 
> As those with the money begin to lease up the private property, which is legal, the amount of available hunting land for the "Masses" dwindle. Then, in the fullness of time, as things change, the country becomes more and more urban, there will someday, again within 50 is my guess, hunting will be outlawed on first public land, then all land.
> 
> The elite few however will still hunt if they chose. No one will stop them, they are too powerful.
> 
> In England, at least when I lived there, the land owner was taxed on the estimated amounts of game/fish, etc, on their land. They leased it out, paid TAXES on that lease money etc.
> 
> Those with privilege, and extreme money, will always be able to do as they please. Always been that way, always will be.
> 
> (my hunting helped keep me poor too! LOL!)


yeah all true but i think thats a little extreme...but i hear what you're saying. I've luckily been able to visit a few states and each state its so different. Leases are the normal in a lot of states (such as ark, missou, tenn, etc...) and not a ton has changed there. a good supply of public state land is the key and for the most part michigan has that covered better than most states...not all, but most.


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## just ducky

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> over 50 years...i fear for hunting in general...not just land access.


this I agree with. with the lack of interest in hunting and the outdoors in general, there may be no one left who WANTS to hunt in 50 years? So it may be a mute point? The further we expand technology and gadgets, which take all of the interest of the youngin's, the further we are digging this hole. JMO

But taking public land from us? Nah, don't see that part happening.


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## DecoySlayer

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yeah all true but i think thats a little extreme...but i hear what you're saying. I've luckily been able to visit a few states and each state its so different. Leases are the normal in a lot of states (such as ark, missou, tenn, etc...) and not a ton has changed there. a good supply of public state land is the key and for the most part michigan has that covered better than most states...not all, but most.


Just looking down the road, I won't live to see it happen, MAYBE a ban on hunting on federal land, but not likely.

TX has relatively little state land.

I flew home, once from England, to hunt deer. The flight, out of state licenses etc was WAY less expensive than a couple of days "deer shooting" in England or Scotland would have been, and there I could not keep the meat if I shot one. The landowner got that.


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## nickjitsu

Whats incredibly evident is that hunting rights is still a very important subject matter. From Indians going to war over hunting rights, to people bickering about rights to hunt a four square mile lake. At the end of the day, people really care and are very passionate about it. I feel like even before holy wars, there were wars over hunting land. Almost like it's instinctively a part of us.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

nickjitsu said:


> Whats incredibly evident is that hunting rights is still a very important subject matter. From Indians going to war over hunting rights, to people bickering about rights to hunt a four square mile lake. At the end of the day, people really care and are very passionate about it. I feel like even before holy wars, there were wars over hunting land. Almost like it's instinctively a part of us.


best post you made in whole thread....only took you 14 pages to say it.


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## fsamie1

Well, seems like as usual nobody can change anyone's opinion for this subject. Therefore, I was going to start a poll to see what majority thinks and make minority quiet. But, if they lose they will not be quiet, they just say not enough participation or any other bogus reason. I lost the spinner poll and not going to bring it up again because majority thinks it is good for managed area. By the way, you may have noticed most opposite comments came from a few members.


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## BangBangBang

fsamie1 said:


> and I am pretty sure, guys with opposite view are Donald's fan. Not sure any of you are rich?? why do you support fat cats? just because government may interfere and take something from fat cats?



I don't support fat cats and that's exactly why I wont be voting for sick Hillary and her fat cat husband and their criminal foundation. You support all that crooked nonsense!? That's insane. Her and her husbands business is all about lining their's and their banker fat cat friends pockets. Are you that blind to their crooked ways?
I'll take a donald any day over the crooked Clintons. They care far less about you and your passions than Trump does. 
I bet you do or have received money you didn't earn in the form of some benefit from the system. Some form of big daddy government handout amirite?

Anyway, I will not be voting for Trump. I will be voting against Political Correctness, against Muslim immigration, against unlimited immigration, against corruption, against pay for play, against fascism (yes, democrats are the real fascists- ask Dr. Drew), against media bias, against cronyism, against equality, against globalism, against diversity, etc, etc, on and on. I’m voting for our Nation, not the State. I’m voting to keep my guns too.


What’s the difference between a State and a Nation? A state is a self-governing political entity. A Nation is a tightly knit group of people that share a common culture.

Which do you think we have now, which do you think we had say in the 50’s and which do you think we’ll have if Hillary is elected and if Trump is elected, and which would YOU like to live in?


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## Shiawassee_Kid

fsamie, no one wondered what side the argument you would be on this topic. definitely no mystery there.


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## nickjitsu

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> best post you made in whole thread....only took you 14 pages to say it.


But let make things clear, you're wrong and my side is on the right side of history.


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## AaronJohn

Is it clear though? No. Find a place to enjoy the outdoors and just hunt with what's provided (hundred of places) and be happy. Everyone else seems to be enjoying it.


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## nickjitsu

AaronJohn said:


> Is it clear though? No. Find a place to enjoy the outdoors and just hunt with what's provided (hundred of places) and be happy. Everyone else seems to be enjoying it.


I care more about the idea of not having situations like st Helen more than I care about open hunting to st Helen itself. Every time a deal like st Helen happens, consider it a loss for public hunting grounds.


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## Rasputin

nickjitsu said:


> I care more about the idea of not having situations like st Helen more than I care about open hunting to st Helen itself. Every time a deal like st Helen happens, consider it a loss for public hunting grounds.


I just don't get your bitterness. Protection of someone else's rights equals protection of your rights. I don't understand why you are mad, bro.


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## nickjitsu

I'm also very happy about the massive public hunting grounds available in Michigan and nationwide. I'm upset about public lands that have exclusive hunting rights. Just the same as id be upset about public hardwoods having exclusive timber rights.


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## AaronJohn

That's how it is, chase birds elsewhere


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## swampbuck

Those who claim that public land will go away, should remember that the quantity of public land is protected by law. There can be exchange and sale and purchases, but the net quantity of hunting land can not be reduced. By Constitutional amendment.

Some of you may also not realise that the current plan is acquisition in the SLP


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## John Singer

Ken Martin said:


> They can shoot off their back porch as long as someone else's house isn't within 450 feet.


Yes. At one time any riprarian owner and their invited guests could hunt waterfowl even if there was another house within 450 feet.

I lost access to many good mallard spots when that changed.

I also shoot fewer birds with bread in their mouths now.


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## fsamie1

BangBangBang said:


> I don't support fat cats and that's exactly why I wont be voting for sick Hillary and her fat cat husband and their criminal foundation. You support all that crooked nonsense!? That's insane. Her and her husbands business is all about lining their's and their banker fat cat friends pockets. Are you that blind to their crooked ways?
> I'll take a donald any day over the crooked Clintons. They care far less about you and your passions than Trump does.
> I bet you do or have received money you didn't earn in the form of some benefit from the system. Some form of big daddy government handout amirite?
> 
> Anyway, I will not be voting for Trump. I will be voting against Political Correctness, against Muslim immigration, against unlimited immigration, against corruption, against pay for play, against fascism (yes, democrats are the real fascists- ask Dr. Drew), against media bias, against cronyism, against equality, against globalism, against diversity, etc, etc, on and on. I’m voting for our Nation, not the State. I’m voting to keep my guns too.
> 
> 
> What’s the difference between a State and a Nation? A state is a self-governing political entity. A Nation is a tightly knit group of people that share a common culture.
> 
> Which do you think we have now, which do you think we had say in the 50’s and which do you think we’ll have if Hillary is elected and if Trump is elected, and which would YOU like to live in?


Well, I am speechless. but, since you are making it political, I am thinking not to vote for neither crooked Hillary or crazy Trump unless voting along party line. I think Trump is unpredictable and crazy so dangerous to be president. I work for auto industry and thankful to Bush and Obama for handout to save it. Aside from politics, we are talking about selling some property to state but not hunting rights and that to me is simply wrong. It is like buying Lake St. Claire from Indians but not hunting rights, oh sorry, it does not apply, we just took it.


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## fsamie1

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> fsamie, no one wondered what side the argument you would be on this topic. definitely no mystery there.


I am sure you are a nice good guy but why do you think you are always right? "know it all" people are not open minded. Do you recall last time you were wrong and apologized on any subject?


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## Lurker

fsamie1 said:


> I am sure you are a nice good guy but *why do you think you are always right? "know it all" people are not open minded.* Do you recall last time you were wrong and apologized on any subject?



why do you think you are always right?


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## Lurker

fsamie1 said:


> Well, I am speechless.


first time for everything


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## Shiawassee_Kid

fsamie1 said:


> I am sure you are a nice good guy but why do you think you are always right? "know it all" people are not open minded. Do you recall last time you were wrong and apologized on any subject?


its what happens when you operate on facts and logic, you should try it.


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## nickjitsu

Do I dare say, GO BLUE?


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## WoodyMG

DirtySteve said:


> I made it about halfway thru the posts so I apologize if I am repeating any info here.....
> 
> I am a property owner on the lake. Believe me i went through my documents after closing and no where does it say anyone else retained hunting rights to my land.


If that's true, you should have legal recourse. If not with the club, at least the previous land owners.


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## WoodyMG

fsamie1 said:


> Well, I am speechless. but, since you are making it political, I am thinking not to vote for neither crooked Hillary or crazy Trump unless voting along party line. I think Trump is unpredictable and crazy so dangerous to be president. I work for auto industry and thankful to Bush and Obama for handout to save it. Aside from politics, we are talking about selling some property to state but not hunting rights and that to me is simply wrong. It is like buying Lake St. Claire from Indians but not hunting rights, oh sorry, it does not apply, we just took it.



So you're glad they stole from other people to give you a handout. Interesting.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

WoodyMG said:


> So you're glad they stole from other people to give you a handout. Interesting.


idunno if you been paying attention or not but a majority of fsamies posts are about "what do i get, why don't i get it, why cant i have what you have, the man is against me, the man has too much and should share".....pretty much sums up 90% of this posts.


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## WoodyMG

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> idunno if you been paying attention or not but a majority of fsamies posts are about "what do i get, why don't i get it, why cant i have what you have, the man is against me, the man has too much and should share".....pretty much sums up 90% of this posts.


No, apparently I wasn't paying attention.


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## BucksandDucks

How is this thread still going?


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## nickjitsu

BucksandDucks said:


> How is this thread still going?


I don't know...


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## dukdouglas

nickjitsu said:


> Right wing republicans don't like public lands. That wouldn't help anything at all.


what a stupid comment


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## midwestfisherman

nickjitsu said:


> Right wing republicans don't like public lands. That wouldn't help anything at all.


That's bullshite!


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## nickjitsu

dukdouglas said:


> what a stupid comment


This happened in July. It's certainly painting a broad brush saying all right wingers and I apologize for that, but none the less the GOP Platform did propose to sell some national parks.


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## Rasputin

nickjitsu said:


> This happened in July. It's certainly painting a broad brush saying all right wingers and I apologize for that, but none the less the GOP Platform did propose to sell some national parks.


I thought Obama already gave them to the Chinese? Can't sell what you don't own. 

On another note, I have a bridge over the, muskegon river that I'll give you a heck of a deal on. Even comes with hunting rights.


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## DirtySteve

nickjitsu said:


> I care more about the idea of not having situations like st Helen more than I care about open hunting to st Helen itself. Every time a deal like st Helen happens, consider it a loss for public hunting grounds.


The issue with what you are saying here is that st helen was never open to public hunting. Before carter made the club he owned the land and it was his private hunting ground. He also gave thousands of acres to the state though out his life.


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## nickjitsu

DirtySteve said:


> The issue with what you are saying here is that st helen was never open to public hunting. Before carter made the club he owned the land and it was his private hunting ground. He also gave thousands of acres to the state though out his life.


I get it. None the less, money's from hunting and fishing license sales and all other state park income that fund the lake should not only benefit a couple people when it comes to hunting. There's not any room for it in modern conservation.


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## fsamie1

WoodyMG said:


> So you're glad they stole from other people to give you a handout. Interesting.


So you were against auto bailout and you are from Michigan? you probably do not know "The *auto industry* supports one of every 10 *jobs* in the United States", may be your job too. By the way, we gave all the money back.


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## DirtySteve

I worked on the interiors for the aztec. The funny thing about that vehicle was when it was a concept car at the auto show it was really kinda cool. It got rave reviews.....it had big beefy tires and looked quite a bit different.

I had a few funny stories about that vehicle. I had a friend that worked on the exterior lighting as a supplier. He was in a studio meeting for the Buick model. One of the designers was showing off his renderings of the headlights and hr made a comment about how mean they looked......my buddy said yeah they are going to look mean tearing out of the bingo hall parking lot. He was escorted out of the building that day.

We used to have an instrument panel in our office. The center air outlets were round with round formations in the panel around it. The knobs protruded out the center. Someone colored them pink like a couple of boobs. Guys would stop and rub them when they walked by......good times.


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## Jerry Lamb

Ken Martin said:


> You forgot Jerry Palmer too. They all green lighted the design. Unfortunately they all put it on a young designer named Joel and he quit soon after and went on to a great career with Hyundai. The press back then wasn't objective either. They crucified it because it had so much cladding but praised the Isuzu Vehicross. Ask anyone who owned an Aztec though and they will tell you it was a great car.


That would be Joel Piaskowski. He's high up at Ford now. He was right out of school from CCS. He worked for Tom. And you're right about Palmer he was #2 for design at the time.


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## Jerry Lamb

Y


Far Beyond Driven said:


> The Vehicross? The only car with fangs in the grille until the Kia Optima?
> 
> My first real launch with the GMX 320 CTS. (The first one I saw was oddly, orange). We had to put the development work on pause as all the mules went to Hollywood to star in the Matrix. Not sure what all happened but fewer came back to Milford than left. Another great moment was sitting in a room with a lot of angry people after one crashed due to a tack weld, mind you not a complete weld, broke on a suspension. Yes, we missed the fact that the weld was not 360 degrees, but my sub supplier who welded the links started saying anything other than "sorry" and the test driver who crashed got up and said "you want to go for a ride?".
> 
> I also got to sit at the end of the line at JNAP and watched JGC's come off the line to inspect their sway bar drop links, in case the welds broke. It was just before Christmas. Once heads off the line to the repair area trailing antifreeze and power steering fluid. I asked if they always leaked seasonal colors. Then another one fired up and barfed all the muffler guts into a 30' long stream of fiberglass matting out the tailpipe. I asked if they all had tapeworms. That's when I got to leave.


You funny guy!!!! I used to look high and low for sarcastic bastards like you so we could laugh. I've seen the hijinks at JNAP too. We were supplying IP skins.


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## Jerry Lamb

DirtySteve said:


> I worked on the interiors for the aztec. The funny thing about that vehicle was when it was a concept car at the auto show it was really kinda cool. It got rave reviews.....it had big beefy tires and looked quite a bit different.
> 
> I had a few funny stories about that vehicle. I had a friend that worked on the exterior lighting as a supplier. He was in a studio meeting for the Buick model. One of the designers was showing off his renderings of the headlights and hr made a comment about how mean they looked......my buddy said yeah they are going to look mean tearing out of the bingo hall parking lot. He was escorted out of the building that day.
> 
> We used to have an instrument panel in our office. The center air outlets were round with round formations in the panel around it. The knobs protruded out the center. Someone colored them pink like a couple of boobs. Guys would stop and rub them when they walked by......good times.


The Rendezvous was the first GM vehicle with a woman Chief Designer, Liz Wetzel. Maybe that's where the air vent inspiration came from.
It really helps your career at GM if your dad is named Jay Wetzel, Global VP of Manufacturing. Ask Mark Ruess about this phenomenon as well. His dad was President.
I explained previously how the great showcar turned into a total Dog. They were forced to switch platforms. The Pontiac and Buick were stuck on a van platform from an SUV, taking it from short/wide to long/narrow.
I love the Bingo hall comment. I was in the Ford Crown Vic/Mercury Grand Marquis (EN114) studio and I quipped that those cars were always paid off with a check that read "from the estate of..."
Also asked to leave.


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## Ken Martin

W


Jerry Lamb said:


> That would be Joel Piaskowski. He's high up at Ford now. He was right out of school from CCS. He worked for Tom. And you're right about Palmer he was #2 for design at the time.


Joel, myself and another designer Mike who I can't remember his last name, would go down in the basement to the training room and play the tank battle game that was loaded onto the Octane's. I had a good time working there. Met a lot of good people.


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## Far Beyond Driven

We made the first rear suspension module for the Rendezvous from three big pieces of billet aluminum. They showed up on the pallet, our machinist gets out the print, looks at me and says "they're in there, you gotta have faith. And like Michaelangelo, just gotta know what to remove". That guy was a guru. Those things were in the CNC for the longest time and the pile of chips was massive. We sleeved the bushing pockets to make sure we didn't gall anything when trying different combinations for ride and handling.

We also did the ride and handling for the second gen Neon. It was dropped off in our dyno lab with a pile of cladding on it. We did the work, got the results on the dyno, and send them a package of bushings to try. They tried them out and they were all way too stiff. Double checked the math and the test results, and it was all good. One of our interns finally pipes up and says "how much did all that cladding weigh?". Not all was lost; they used the stiffer bushings on the SRT-4 Neon.

And speaking of that little rocket ship, they put thicker half shafts on it but didn't change the heat treat profile. The first one they put out on the track, guy drops the clutch and twists one of the half shafts like a piece of licorice.


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## just ducky

Lurker said:


> padding the post count


As Tim Taylor used to say...."HUUUUUH?" If I were concerned about post counts, I would join in on the discussion of all the ex GM slappies who are going on and on and on...talk about padding their post counts!  Nothing personal guys


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## goosemanrdk

just ducky said:


> As Tim Taylor used to say...."HUUUUUH?" If I were concerned about post counts, I would join in on the discussion of all the ex GM slappies who are going on and on and on...talk about padding their post counts!  Nothing personal guys


Padding the count again, Pad on my friend, pad on.


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## ThumbDweller

nickjitsu said:


> If it's not a dnr boat launch then that obviously changes things. You seem pretty educated on it. I guess I assumed that it was.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a perfect example of what happens when you "assume".


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## just ducky

goosemanrdk said:


> Padding the count again, Pad on my friend, pad on.


bump.  I'm looking to win that golden ticket. What golden ticket you ask? The one they give to the person with the most posts when they die


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## Jerry Lamb

Just a bunch a slappies, slappin away. At least we're not challenging each other to fights anymore.


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## Far Beyond Driven

Let's have a slappy reunion, at the Lake St. Helen boat launch, say opening day just before hours? I'll be there in nothing that rolled off a GM assembly line but possibly a product of JNAP.


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## goosemanrdk

just ducky said:


> bump.  I'm looking to win that golden ticket. What golden ticket you ask? The one they give to the person with the most posts when they die


Winning!!!!!!!!!


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## Lurker

I do believe it's time to "Unwatch Thread" and clean out the email notifications.


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## goosemanrdk

Far Beyond Driven said:


> Let's have a slappy reunion, at the Lake St. Helen boat launch, say opening day just before hours? I'll be there in nothing that rolled off a GM assembly line but possibly a product of JNAP.


Chevy vs Ford vs Dodge. Go!!!!!!!!!!!


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## just ducky

Sorry, I can't post any longer because I've been accused of "post padding", which I believe is a product made by Depends, not GM


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## just ducky

Jerry Lamb said:


> Just a bunch a slappies, slappin away. At least we're not challenging each other to fights anymore.


Aw damn! I wanna see the fists flying at the Lake St. Helen "kumbaya" session...

May even see the ghost of Charlton Heston if we're quiet enough....


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## Jerry Lamb

just ducky said:


> Aw damn! I wanna see the fists flying at the Lake St. Helen "kumbaya" session...
> 
> May even see the ghost of Charlton Heston if we're quiet enough....


"Leave your fists off me, you damn dirty ape!"


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## Jerry Lamb

goosemanrdk said:


> Chevy vs Ford vs Dodge. Go!!!!!!!!!!!


Ram, son. For the win.


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## davidshane

I have lakefront property on this lake and it would be nice to waterfowl hunt on it. However, I would forgo my right to waterfall hunt Lake Saint Helen as long as the owners of the property to the north never sell the property and develop it. There's 18 miles of shoreline here with only 3 miles developed witj housing. Every morning I get up and look outside and have the Canadian view. I wouldn't trade it for the world and I wouldn't trade it for all the ducks and geese in it. I get Nick concern and have often wondered about it myself, but the status quo works for me. Just don't tell me I can't shoot the bucks!


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## davidshane

Jerry Lamb said:


> Ram, son. For the win.


 When are you ever going to invite me to go shoot some duck and geese with you?


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## Jerry Lamb

davidshane said:


> When are you ever going to invite me to go shoot some duck and geese with you?


You really want to hunt ducks with the Famous Celebrity Hunter Waxico? Why me?
Just PM me and I'll fit you in. It's that easy!


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## davidshane

Jerry Lamb said:


> You really want to hunt ducks with the Famous Celebrity Hunter Waxico? Why me?
> Just PM me and I'll fit you in. It's that easy!



You know who this is right?


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## Retiredducker

When has making money by legal means not been American? It may be totally frustrating , but legal


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## Jerry Lamb

davidshane said:


> You know who this is right?


No I don't. Give me a hint?


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## decoy706

Join the club only 1.000.000 fee


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