# What makes a Grouse Killer - How many is enough?



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Well I noticed that Field Walker now calls himself a grouse killer, so I am taking a topic from another board and combining it with the questoin "What makes a Grouse Killer" not a Grouse Hunter - but a Grouse Killer - and at the same time how many is enough (please dont post specific numbers), but in reality how many is enough to make you a Grouse Killer? Do you consider others that you know "Grouse Killers" or do you view them as "Grouse Hunters." Do you really need a certain number to be considered a Grouse Killer?

Senario:

Hunter "A" lives in Grouse Country - hunts upwards of 60 days a season, scouts another 30 days, spends time training his dogs, hunts upwards of 100 different covers a season, rarely hunts the same cover more than twice. Kills on average one grouse per time out.

Hunter "B" lives a couple hours from Good Grouse Country - hunts every weekend at the cabin or camp, hunts hard each day out, has a good dog, hunts 10-15 covers over and over through out the season. Kills 4-15 grouse per season. 

Hunter "W" - the twice a year weekend warrior, takes out the family pet that he tells people is a Grouse Dog, shoots a bird a season. 

Is hunter A any more of a Killer than Hunter B, Is hunter A any different than B? Do you hold it against hunter A that he is a game hog?

How many Hunter "W" do you know that maskeraid as a Hunter "B."

Thoughts?


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

I can't believe that nobody has bit on this yet. Try and jig it.... :lol:


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## Rudi's Dad (May 4, 2004)

Most A hunters change, they dont see things different for several years, but they will change.
Hunter B, used to be hunter A but has kids and after the first divorce, decided to put a priority on other things first, hunting down the list.
Hunter C, maybe he has been there and done that too, and just has other interests in life. Grandkids and such. 
You see they can be the same hunter, just at various times in their lifes.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Rudi's Dad said:


> Most A hunters change, they dont see things different for several years, but they will change.
> Hunter B, used to be hunter A but has kids and after the first divorce, decided to put a priority on other things first, hunting down the list.
> Hunter C, maybe he has been there and done that too, and just has other interests in life. Grandkids and such.
> You see they can be the same hunter, just at various times in their lifes.


That makes perfect sense.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Rudi's Dad said:


> Most A hunters change, they dont see things different for several years, but they will change.
> Hunter B, used to be hunter A but has kids and after the first divorce, decided to put a priority on other things first, hunting down the list.
> Hunter C, maybe he has been there and done that too, and just has other interests in life. Grandkids and such.
> You see they can be the same hunter, just at various times in their lifes.


Grouse killer to me means... If my dog puts it up, I throw lead. My dog(s) are meat dogs... Now with the pup I hold back throwing lead... but once he 100% knows the name of the game... then it will be a different story. If it is in the air because of them... it is fair game... I don't ground pound or tree trim.

Just in the last two years have I gotten' into WC... Growing up hunting behind an ESS, I wasn't allowed to shoot doodles.. Just something my dad didn't like the taste of and didn't consider hunting them with a flusher to be all that challenging. Now, that his last ESS is around 351 years old... and we hunt behind my dog(s), shooting a woodcock over a nice point is certainly rewarding (and I like eating them to'boot!)- Looks like after his last ESS and this years knee replacement he's looking into getting another beagle (his boy-hood dog preference). Maybe some bunny hunting will happen next year!

Now, back to the Bears and my Newcastle


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## HarleyP (Mar 4, 2004)

It sounds like a story problem from algebra class.... I refuse to answer.


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## pporonto (Oct 8, 2003)

> Hunter "W" - the twice a year weekend warrior, takes out the family pet that he tells people is a Grouse Dog, shoots a bird a season.


Hey stop picking on me!!!!!!:lol: 

I am hoping that when I grow up I can be a hunter B. Hunter A would get me a divorced.


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## colehatch (Jun 18, 2003)

Typical confusing story problem...I'm still trying to figure out why it's hunter A, B and W and not A, B and C.  

Anyway I agree with Rudi's Dad in that things change as we grow.(even though he said hunter C and their isn't a hunter C, damn story problems :lol: ). And to add to that I would say a "Grouse Killa" is one that might drop ground and tree'd birds.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Rudi's Dad said:


> Most A hunters change, they dont see things different for several years, but they will change.
> Hunter B, used to be hunter A but has kids and after the first divorce, decided to put a priority on other things first, hunting down the list.
> Hunter C, maybe he has been there and done that too, and just has other interests in life. Grandkids and such.
> You see they can be the same hunter, just at various times in their lifes.



I agree with this statement. Every hunter is different and none fit the exact mold "s" that are described. I personally hunt as much as I can, I love to train dogs and be in the woods but sometimes work and other things get in the way. I would consider myself to be the "B" hunter with the heart and drive of the "A" hunter. In my opinion the "W" hunter is a joke. You are who you are and if you only enjoy a hunt a few times a season and not training dogs than there is nothing wrong with it, and there is no reason to cover it up by telling everyone you are the "B" hunter. Just my .02
Ric


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

I'll simplify things fer ya'll....

My interpretation of what Fritz is getting at is this:
A grouse killer is not a ground pounder or a tree whacker. A Grouse Killer is a step above a grouse hunter. A Grouse Killer no longer needs to hunt for grouse, he already knows where they are because he spends many, many days afield studying his quarry. He knows 25 covers that hold birds in September, 25 covers that hold birds in October, and 25 covers that hold late season birds. He rarely hunts a cover more than twice although he shoots 5 bird limits often throughout the season.
When a Grouse Killer shoots at a grouse he expects his dog to retrieve a dead bird, when a grouse hunter shoots at a grouse he is pleasantly surprised when his dog brings in a dead bird. The Killer is surprised when he misses.

The Grouse Killer has gotten over the excitement of the flush, he no longer gets frazzled by the multiple bird flushes in the early season because he has seen it so many times before, his feet don't trip over each other at the thundering wings of the King. The Killer can tell you what color phase the bird is before it hits the ground, for its all slow motion to him(or her) this grouse shooting business. The flush of the bird, the mount of the gun, the slapping of the trigger, all done without conscious thought. 

Me, I'm a grouse hunter, trying to work my way up the ladder one rung at a time.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i am probably older than most of you, have never been divorced, hunt birds quite a bit, probably more than most, and train and exercise my dogs virtually every day. for me it's 90% about the dog work. it's always been that way although perhaps not as much.

i've been on a number of forums over the years and heard a lot of claims. i dont necessarily take them as factual. and i even if they were factual, i dont necessarily believe they are claims worthy of being made.<G>


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

colehatch said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why it's hunter A, B and W and not A, B and C.


I talked to him on the phone today and asked the same thing. "Why hunter W?" And I got the answer, "Weekend Warrior...", as if I should have known all along.:lol: 

As Duece says..."It's Fred's world...we just live in it."


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

I saw FW's pseudoname and didn't make a connection between the name and a boast for the quantity of birds shot. 

To me, as long as the individual is taking birds lawfully and abiding by the posted limits, that person can call him/herself by any title he/she wants. Technically speaking, anyone who's shot a grouse and put it on the table is a grouse killer, grouse murderer, etc.

I think you're reading more into the pseudoname than was intended. Or maybe FW dangled the carrot, and we bit.

Regards,

Keith a/k/a Number One Grouse Slayer


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

kek25 said:


> I saw FW's pseudoname and didn't make a connection between the name and a boast for the quantity of birds shot.
> 
> To me, as long as the individual is taking birds lawfully and abiding by the posted limits, that person can call him/herself by any title he/she wants. Technically speaking, anyone who's shot a grouse and put it on the table is a grouse killer, grouse murderer, etc.
> 
> ...


Keith,

I like FW, and by no means was this a slap in his face, I dont believe he took it that way either....

Rudi's Dad,

Could Hunter B not become hunter A with retirement, lotto winnings?

2ESRGR8,

I think you are onto something there?

Fieldwalker, 

Do you think of yourself as a grouse hunter who shoots Doodles because of the Dogwork, or are you also a WC hunter? 

I think there are a lot of people who call themselves grouse hunters but in reality shoot mostly WC cause there dogs handle them well, and they can take them on the wing?

Outside of hunting just to see what good dog work is, "what makes a grouse killer?"


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## HarleyP (Mar 4, 2004)

I am a grouse killer.

I have enough covers to keep me busy all year and only hunt them twice a year. 

I expect my dog to point every bird. Not just point it, hold it, pin it, what ever you want to call it, keep it from running and keep it from flying until I get there.

I can tell you not only what color phase a bird is on the wing but what sex it is and if it has a black or chocolate subterminal band. 

I have nerves of steel and panther like reflexes. I consider the goshawk a subpar grouse killer.

I expect every grouse to fall at my shot. I am surprised when it doesn't. 

Anything less than a limit everytime out is a disapointment. 

Signed, Yours in sarcasim,

GROUSE KILLLLLLEEEERRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Rudi's Dad (May 4, 2004)

> I expect every grouse to fall at my shot. I am surprised when it doesn't.
> 
> I can tell you not only what color phase a bird is on the wing but what sex it is and if it has a black or chocolate subterminal band.
> 
> Anything less than a limit everytime out is a disapointment.


Blood running out of the tailgate there Rose?


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Steelheadfred said:


> Fieldwalker,
> 
> Do you think of yourself as a grouse hunter who shoots Doodles because of the Dogwork, or are you also a WC hunter?
> 
> Outside of hunting just to see what good dog work is, "what makes a grouse killer?"


I think (like most would think) that WC can really really really help young pointing dogs... I certainly take advantage of their presence. Do I go out specifically for WC, no. Do I hunt covers that hold only WC, no. I grouse hunt... WC are a bonus. I certainly have a couple spots that hold WC and no grouse, but have only made one trip into them... and only with the pup.

So, I'd have to say that I am a grouse hunter who takes advantage of the doodles that share the woods with the grouse. Maybe someday when grouse numbers are back up (I'll keep my fingers crossed), I'll pass on pointed doodles. Until then, I'll try to reward my pups on birds with a couple feathers in there teeth and some pan fried doodles on my plate.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

HarleyP said:


> I am a grouse killer.
> 
> I have enough covers to keep me busy all year and only hunt them twice a year.
> 
> ...



Thats odd I feel the same way :lol:


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

HarleyP said:


> I can tell you not only what color phase a bird is on the wing but what sex it is


If that's the case then quit sending me all those pictures of dead hens.:yikes:


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## upnut (Aug 31, 2004)

Would be the category I fall into....except I don't remember calling my dog a grouse dog. We call him "Phsyco Sam" and he came to us with issues, allergies, and a bad attitude. I usually try to make at least a couple short trips to the northern lower peninsula, and one longer trip to the U.P. per year. Those trips are the highlight of my year...and I enjoy them immensely. If that makes me a joke in your eyes, guess that's your privelege. 
If this forum turns into a place where only the elite are encouraged to post and interact, I'll simply move on. Numbers and egos and labels don't appeal to me. Those clear, crisp fall days spent afield are too precious to be wasted in arguments about who's the best killer. 
Maybe I'm missing the point of this whole thread...Scott


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

GVSUKUSH said:


> And in terms of the title "Grouse Hunter" or "Grouse Killer", I could really care less if somebody called themselves "The Grouse Destroyer" we're really all in this for the fun of hunting the birds aren't we? (And I've found Fieldwalker to be a pretty cool guy to hunt with, along with everyone else on this board)












We did almost get out limit of Badgers on this particular morning!


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Kush excellent post, but you are far from a WW type. You put pretty good effort into your hunting of Birds, Ducks, and Deer.


In responce to Steelsearchin. Yes I did not shoot well that day, it was raining sideways, but it sure was fun. You understood what I was saying. It was a good flight of birds. We cant all shoot doubles every time out:lol: !

I am a little curious as to why those that dont get to hunt as much as some of us, seem to look down at those that hunt and train a lot as people who are bad for leaving there wives and kids ? I dont have any kids, I have a very successful marriage how ever you want to define successful. We are both comfortable being apart and together. We both have busy successful careers, but I do know that when I start a family, my time in the woods will decrease significantly, and I will have to deal with it, I would imagine I will be fine with it.


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

I'll tell ya, I was more than a little nervous having 3 young dogs around a badger with nothing more than my Leatherman on my belt. :yikes:


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

Rudi's Dad & Scott Grush gave some of the best replies but.....

There becomes a time, for myself it happened after many harvests of critters.
Hundreds of birds, dozens of deer that you think twice about taking a shot.

This usually comes when you, yourself have fewer years ahead of you than behind you. You take a different perspective on gods creations, you marvel at their beauty and are facinated at how they live.
Use realize that without them, something in your own life would be lacking.

Eventually you may hunt with a camera instead of a gun, preserving those photo's for great memories for when you can't be out loving where you like to be best.
Lets face it, we are not substanance hunters, we go to the grocery store, go out to dinner and no longer have to be primarily hunters/gathers & provide for our families as our ancestors did.
As far as keeping score, I think not, thats why I don't care about professional sports. I used to when I was younger, when players didn't make mega bucks & were more down to earth.
Nothing wrong with being competitive, but when its no longer fun what is it ?
Becoming better at what I do, sure but it dosen't include how many birds I put in the pot. Measurement is for myself & my standards, did I have a better day than yesterday ? Was it fun ? Then you enjoyed yourself, right ?

Wally


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

The amount of game in the bag should never determine a good vs. a bad day. There are many other factors that affect that more directly. I have had some hilarious times without any dead birds and I have had some ho-hum days with a heavy bag. 


I would disagree with the "hunters maturation" thought process. What if a hunter never did focus on the numbers but through his increased time in the field just gets better at the hunting game. A days success isn't about the score but about the game itself. As the players get better at it, the scores tend to get higher but the game is still a game, just played at a higher level. Does the guy shooting 15's and 16's at skeet have more or less fun than the guys shooting 23's and 24's? Maybe. Maybe not.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

I have had some great days afield....god knows I've spent my share. I seem to run with a highly competitive group here and at home in Mid-MI. Competitive meaning, we all want to do it right and do it well. Not, "The mine is bigger and better" type. 

During goose season last year we killed 131...was that about the numbers? Kind of...but it pivoted more on setting out a good spread, in good fields only, and doing it right. Did we put up good numbers for non-guides? Yes, because we focused on doing it the right way and it paid off.

Grouse hunting...My season could have been better (not better, just more birds) if I wasn't worried about shooting only pointed birds. My dog is not a pup, but a first year grouse hunter. So...I wanted to solidify the way he knows how to do it. Did I shoot as many birds as I could have? NO. Do I care? NO. Now next year I will be training a pup, and trying to polish up my GSP. I can't wait. I spend the time to do things correctly and it pays off. I want a finished product that I can be proud of and one that someone that knows the game would want to hunt over. 

Am I competitive? You bet your ass! But, I think a perfect season consists of, good friends, good dogs, fine guns, great drinks, and a safe ending for the year. The birds are always just a bonus.

Am I a Grouse Killer? Nope...I'm just a Killer. And if ya don't know...ya'll betta axe sumbody...:lol:


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

It allways suprises me what guys will argue about here! I will admit I haven't read all the post those that get real long I seam to drift of someplace in the middle of them! From my view point it is a numbers game I just looked up the rules it's 5 birds per day 10 in possesion( for grouse in zones 1 and 2) and it's been so long ago that I've even gotten 10 grouse in a season I can't remember and I don't care. If I did I would seriously learn to shoot better. Every year I have been seeing more birds and taking less time to due it because my dogs keep getting better as they get older and I'm getting better at finding cover that holds grouse/woodcock. But after saying that I know some guy that their dogs aren't any better than mine but they have shoot over 40 birds each so far this season! If we all put in as many hours as they due hunting we would all have higher kill numbers but the orignal question how many birds is enough I believe these guys are grouse killers and take way to many birds just so they can say they shot more than you.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

Worm Dunker said:


> But after saying that I know some guy that their dogs aren't any better than mine but they have shoot over 40 birds..... I believe these guys are grouse killers and take way to many birds just so they can say they shot more than you.


Assuming they abide by the states laws, why are they taking too many birds? If they hunt everyday of the season, they have shot 1 per day. If they don't overhunt any particular coverts why are they taking too many birds? I just don't understand the overall objections to the "killers". "Killers" of course is just slang and shouldn't imply any negativity.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

good afternoon and welcome to page 4


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## WEIM-VIZ (Oct 28, 2005)

I think our group might be better considered "Beer Killers" . We have been hunting since 92 or 93 when we met in college. When we started we had no money, no dogs, crappy guns, no field gear, and we nailed more birds then ever. Now we have great dogs, nice guns, all the gear, and more money, for more beer, and less time spent hunting, more time spent talking about hunting:lol:. I love to hunt, get out as much as I can based on my busy schedule. I work with my dog alot, and am non stop now with a new pup. But I don't think we are in the class that many here are, or claim to be. I take the dog work very serious, and probably would not hunt anymore if the dogs were not a part of it. I would not consider any of us dead shots either, I have scene to many birds heading off in the distance for that over the years. But call us what you will, we have a hell of a good time hitting or missing. I hunt alot on my own, since we all live in different cities, and I hunt alot harder on my own, but its just not as much fun without the boys. Our trips to the UP together are the highlight of my year, no question. We are going up for 5-6 days next week and I can not wait.


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

Fieldwalker,How about wild wc flushes when some poor bastard is standing beside and slightly in front of you. I think killer fits you perfectly. Don't let Fred give you any ****!


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> I believe these guys are grouse killers and take way to many birds just so they can say they shot more than you.


 
These guys live in every single area you hunt. They are called "Grouse Hunters", and live in areas to do so. Not the middle of the state complaining about not getting to hunt for this one reason or another. 

The guys that don't MAKE time...make excuses.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> Well I noticed that Field Walker now calls himself a grouse killer, so I am taking a topic from another board and combining it with the questoin "What makes a Grouse Killer" not a Grouse Hunter - but a Grouse Killer - and at the same time how many is enough (please dont post specific numbers), but in reality how many is enough to make you a Grouse Killer? Do you consider others that you know "Grouse Killers" or do you view them as "Grouse Hunters." Do you really need a certain number to be considered a Grouse Killer?


It's whispered about in bars and campfires all over Michigan. In hushed tones a few names get mentioned usually followed by a "no way...it's not possible". If you want a number, I'd go with 100 in a season. I'm not sure "killer" is the right word but a bird a day adds up quickly.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Hevi said:


> These guys live in every single area you hunt. They are called "Grouse Hunters", and live in areas to do so. Not the middle of the state complaining about not getting to hunt for this one reason or another. . .
> 
> 
> > It's a sad truism that not all people are fortunate enough to live in the areas they hunt. So, like me, they make excuses when they can't get out to help ease the frustration. But when we do get out, we enjoy the sport as much as those that are lucky enough to participate more frequently. And for the record, I'd just point out that even we that don't hunt as much as those who live where they hunt are still considered "Grouse Hunters." That's the one thing in common many of us in this group share -- at some rate or another, we hunt grouse.
> ...


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

kek25 said:


> Hevi said:
> 
> 
> > These guys live in every single area you hunt. They are called "Grouse Hunters", and live in areas to do so. Not the middle of the state complaining about not getting to hunt for this one reason or another. . .
> ...


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## WEIM-VIZ (Oct 28, 2005)

Kek25

I think that is probably where the lions share of us fall. I can pheasant hunt right around the corner, but when you shoot one a season, saw 3 total(two hens). Well, that's more like exercise, then hunting!

And as far as treating it like a Job, not a chance. This place drives me crazy most of time(work), and hunting is a time just for me with the dogs in their element. If I see nothing, I still just love watching the dogs running with a smile from ear to ear. Though that puppy feels like a part tme job right now! 

But this site is a breathe of fresh air, it's nice whether you agree with the people or not. I take a little break from work, pop in a few times a day and see what the chatter is on bird hunting that day. Thanks to the "Sag" for introducing it to me. I know your to busy giving sound financial advice to be here screwing around all the time like I am.


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

Kek
I agree, the guy that dosen't live close enough to walk out the back door & grouse hunt everyday or the guy that only gets to go a few weekends, or the guy that only shoots a couple birds a year may, just may hold a little more dear.
Take a little more pride, or cherish the moment a little more than others.

We live where we live for our own reasons, for some it may be monitary, to support our families. Maybe you need to be close to an elderly relative or close to a hospital for some sort of treatment.
So many reasons are possible, I know if I didn't own a home, have acreage, several species of birds, farm animals, have nine dogs, a million projects, was single I'd have a lot more time to hunt.
I gave up a lot of hunting for trialing, but I enjoy watching the dog work, enjoy the people as much as hunting now.
Dosen't mean I don't enjoy it as much as anyone else.

Wally


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> but I do know that when I start a family, my time in the woods will decrease significantly, and I will have to deal with it, I would imagine I will be fine with it.


I am sure you will be fine with it to Fred as long as you remember to put in your budget money for therapy and money for your long distance bill to get reports from me all the time. :lol: 


This topic is being taken way to serious. Whether you are in the woods once a year or a hundred times a year it doesnt matter and everyone should be given the same respect all the way around.
Jr


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## colehatch (Jun 18, 2003)

drwink said:


> I gave up a lot of hunting for trialing, but I enjoy watching the dog work, enjoy the people as much as hunting now.
> Dosen't mean I don't enjoy it as much as anyone else.
> Wally


Id have to say that drwink has about the best observation Ive seen throughout this thread in referring to how much he still enjoys being out there as much as anyone whether its 2 days or 45 days a season and 0 or 20 birds killed. Personally I havent even hit a grouse this year and Ive busted my tail 30+ days already so I dont know where that would put me in the A, B, or W classification. Maybe there needs to be an I category for incompetent shooter. I think what matters is Im out there enjoying my time, however dont get me wrong here. That first grouse I eventually end up getting will be highly celebrated with spirits and cigars and certainly bragged about here.and I can then officially be considered a Grouse Killer.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> It's whispered about in bars and campfires all over Michigan. In hushed tones a few names get mentioned usually followed by a "no way...it's not possible". If you want a number, I'd go with 100 in a season. I'm not sure "killer" is the right word but a bird a day adds up quickly.


100......ah yes, the Holy Grail.
I've heard that number mentioned before and keep in the back of my mind as I progress thru the season. Usually it gets wiped from memory after the first three misses opening day but its still a goal, maybe not realistic for a working stiff like me but a goal, challenging enough, to strive for.
Now don't look at me like a game hog, if a guy ever did kill 100 grouse in a season it wouldn't be because he was just whackin' 'em off every other tree branch. It would be because he had elevated his craft to a very, very high level, scouted tirelessly, hunted even more tirelessly, and shot wonderfully for magical season.
No 100 wouldn't make you obnoxious, wasteful, or anything else in my eyes, it would however mean to me that you were in rare company like Elway, Montana, Unitas......you stepped up to the big leagues.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

colehatch said:


> That first grouse I eventually end up getting will be highly celebrated with spirits and cigars and certainly bragged about here.and I can then officially be considered a Grouse Killer.


Absolutely an event worth celebrating but I don't mean to pee on your parade and please don't take it as such but in reference to the topic you will *not* be a "Grouse Killer" you will have killed a grouse and you are hunting for them but I believe Fred's point is that there are many hunter's and a very few "killers". Maybe that's my definition, don't mean to put words in Fred's mouth but I guess comparing the two words keeps bringing me back to Burton Spiller when he referenced Tap Tapply I believe. He referred to him as a grouse killer while the rest of his party were just grouse hunters. When the poet laureate of grouse hunting talks....people listen  . 
Maybe I have the names wrong but it was someone from that generation of outdoor writers.

Keep chasin' 'em colehatch, one day you'll score.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

kek25 said:


> I'd just point out that even we that don't hunt as much as those who live where they hunt are still considered "Grouse Hunters." That's the one thing in common many of us in this group share -- at some rate or another, we hunt grouse.





Worm Dunker said:


> I believe these guys are grouse killers and take way to many birds just so they can say they shot more than you.


kek,
I'm not pointing fingers and saying anyone isn't a Grouse hunter. If I didn't appreciate everyone's input and respect the fact that we are all bird hunters, I wouldn't frequent the site at all. If someone loves to Grouse hunt and can only do it 2 or 3 times a year....they are still a Grouse hunter in my book.

I've always hunted Pheasants and just moved up North....so, now I grouse hunt. Do I and Did I Pheasant hunt a lot at home? Yes. Should I be criticized because I have the time, the dog, and enough quality chunks of habitat to shoot more birds than the next guy? Hell no! It's easy for someone to point fingers and say..."Aw poor me, I can't find birds." Give me a break. 

Same goes for Terry's point. It's a shot taken at guys that have the opportunity. It sounds like a typical victim mentality to me. "I don't get to shoot that many birds because of *those guys.*"....that's crap. Get off the couch and in the woods. People that don't get to shoot that many birds, don't make the time. It's a compromise. I could spend time doing other things, but I like to train dogs and hunt birds (and fly fish too:evil: ) . It doesn't mean that I think I'm better than anybody...I'm not. I'm a rookie at the Grouse thing, I just have the opportunity to hunt them whenever I want....and I do. I made the choice to live up here because I love the outdoors and what the NW part of the Lower Penninsula has to offer. Am I bad guy because I have an understanding Fiance, a bird dog, another one on the way, and a drift boat? If I am...shame on me.

There...I'll step off the soapbox now.:lol: Terry, this was not a shot at you personally. I just think that attitude is one sided. If you had the opportunity, you would do the same. If you shot 3 birds over each of your 146 dogs...that would be a hefty amount of birds.

*BTW...Would everyone quit being so darn sensitive?!?!?!?!*


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## colehatch (Jun 18, 2003)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Absolutely an event worth celebrating but I don't mean to pee on your parade and please don't take it as such but in reference to the topic you will *not* be a "Grouse Killer" you will have killed a grouse and you are hunting for them but I believe Fred's point is that there are many hunter's and a very few "killers". Maybe that's my definition, don't mean to put words in Fred's mouth but I guess comparing the two words keeps bringing me back to Burton Spiller when he referenced Tap Tapply I believe. He referred to him as a grouse killer while the rest of his party were just grouse hunters. Maybe I have the names wrong but it was someone from that generation of outdoor writers.
> 
> Keep chasin' 'em colehatch, one day you'll score.


I totally understand what you're saying and certainly no offense taken. I guess my point was more of the "to each his own" variety on this topic and I was using the term Grouse Killer loosley (in the context of this particular thread) in that one day I would finally have success.

And thanks for that vote of confidence


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I would like to hear anyone on here who even know's someone who has shot 100 grouse in a season. Even if you hunted every single day you would have to average more than a bird a day. I know some guys who hunt over 50 days a year and have only killed a limit a couple of times in their lives. These guys are crack shots, with great dogs and still not even close to 100 birds.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Hevi said:


> kek,
> 
> *. . . Should I be criticized because I have the time, the dog, and enough quality chunks of habitat to shoot more birds than the next guy? Hell no!* . . .
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like you're a pretty sensitive guy yourself!


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Touche my friend.......touche.:mischeif:


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> I would like to hear anyone on here who even know's someone who has shot 100 grouse in a season. Even if you hunted every single day you would have to average more than a bird a day. I know some guys who hunt over 50 days a year and have only killed a limit a couple of times in their lives. These guys are crack shots, with great dogs and still not even close to 100 birds.


 
I know two guys that have shot that number, no reason to lie, cause one of them told me they have only shot so many this year, why would I not believe him? I know another guy that consistently shoots 100 birds a season but that includes WC.

The one guy is single, works for the state in wildlife/fisheries, has two ES, lives in the middle of large massive tracks of public land, paper company land.

I have seen some of his pictures.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I should clarify. I meant grouse. I don't think that killing 100 birds would be too difficult if you included woodcock. Considering woodcock season is 45 days and if you hunt only 35 of them it isn't too difficult to get 2 birds a day while woodock hunting.


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## HarleyP (Mar 4, 2004)

I dunno, I believe it can be done (100 birds)... but... it'd be tough. I think you'd have to travel to extend your season. Hunt in Alaska maybe?

If you hunted MI exclusively you would have to hunt every day of the season, including December and shoot 1.0752 birds per day. I think someone with good dogs and an excelent shot could shoot a bird a day. It's the hunting everyday thing that gets me. That includes Halloween, Columbus Day, Yom Kippur, Election Day, Christmas Eve, Christmas,Kwanzaa, New Years Eve, and New Years Day. I don't know about you fellas but there's not a snow balls chance in hell that my ol' lady's lettin' me go hunting on Kwanzaa.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Yeah me to, I can never get away on Kwanzaa.


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## Zeboy (Oct 4, 2002)

I have a hunch that there isn't that many guys on this site that have shot 100 ruffed grouse in their lifetime let alone in a single year.

It wasn't that many years ago that Michigan hunting regulations spelled out a season limit on most species. If my memory serves me correctly Grouse was something like 25 and pheasants were 8. It wasn't enforceable but it surely was the law in "black and white". Just food for thought.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

The guys I know I say shoot to many grouse do! With that said they don't eat them usuall just breast them and throw the rest away. I'm not the least bit envious of anybody that hunts rather they get more birds, have better dogs, or even better looking! I just happy I can still get off the coach and hunt my hour a day.


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> shoots 100 birds a season but that includes WC.
> 
> The one guy is single, works for the state in wildlife/fisheries, has two ES, lives in the middle of large massive tracks of public land, paper company land.
> 
> .


 Well, there's the reason he shoots 100 birds a season. Tucked away, very neatly, in the middle of that last statement. "He" hunts with the "optimum" of bird dogs. lol Now, after that statement, we have something worth while to argue about. lol Just joking around, continue on as you were. Brian.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

I know 5 guys that have done it. They basically hunt everyday. They basically shoot a bird or two here and there. Add in the couple of times they shoot 3, 4, or 5, and you get a 100 birds rather easily. They do have good dogs. They are pretty good shots. And the 5 guys I have met are all very nice, knowledgeable, generous, decent guys.

These guys are not grouse assasins. They are just everyday guys that happen to spend a lot of time in the woods. I wouldn't call any of them "exceptional" in their skills as hunters. They just put in enough time. Over time, they have refined their hunts to a point where they can go out for an hour and expect a grouse for dinner.

Why is that so hard to believe?


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

twosetters said:


> "He" hunts with the "optimum" of bird dogs.


Another guy that needs 2 Setters to get the job done......


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## SteelSearchin (Apr 8, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> I know 5 guys that have done it. They basically hunt everyday. They basically shoot a bird or two here and there. Add in the couple of times they shoot 3, 4, or 5, and you get a 100 birds rather easily. They do have good dogs. They are pretty good shots. And the 5 guys I have met are all very nice, knowledgeable, generous, decent guys.
> 
> These guys are not grouse assasins. They are just everyday guys that happen to spend a lot of time in the woods. I wouldn't call any of them "exceptional" in their skills as hunters. They just put in enough time. Over time, they have refined their hunts to a point where they can go out for an hour and expect a grouse for dinner.
> 
> Why is that so hard to believe?


Two them wouldn't happen to be brothers from West Virginy would they? These two guys are the only ones I know that consistently kill over 100 grouse per man per season. They are good shots, their dogs see more grouse in a season than mine will in five, and they hunt A LOT! Throw in an intimate knowledge of hexes and brown drakes, and you have two old timers that are definitely worth listening to around a camp fire...


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

Hell, if I kill over 5 in one year I'm doing the "Fred Heller Air Hump" :lol: I couldn't imagine having enough time to hunt in the fall to kill 100 grouse, you'd be one lucky fella.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> I would like to hear anyone on here who even know's someone who has shot 100 grouse in a season. Even if you hunted every single day you would have to average more than a bird a day. I know some guys who hunt over 50 days a year and have only killed a limit a couple of times in their lives. These guys are crack shots, with great dogs and still not even close to 100 birds.


I suspect there may be a guy or two participating in this thread that have killed 100 grouse in a season. Just because its beyond your ability doesn't mean its not possible for someone else. BIGSP, I think you've said that you have only chased grouse seriously for four years now. So basically you have only hunted grouse during the down cycle. If you do the math during a peak cycle year when average Joe's are moving 3 birds per hour it isn't such a stretch to see how a guy hunting 50+ days could shoot 100 birds, especially if this guy was a dedicated grouser with great cover, connections to some fantastic private lands, nice dogs, and a better than average shot. I can't throw a 95 mph fastball but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Really, this is the whole jist of this thread, some can, some wish they could, some dabble on the weekends. To each his own, its all good.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

the way I look at it guys 


If I was in it for the killing I would buy a chicken Farm I truly enjoy the dog work more then killing anything the killing part is just icing on the cake 

I wonder what I would be in the mixed of all this I wont decide right now let me think about it

scott


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

timbergsp said:


> the way I look at it guys
> 
> If I was in it for the killing I would buy a chicken Farm I truly enjoy the dog work more then killing anything the killing part is just icing on the cake.


 
The guys I know, feel the killing is icing as well. It's not the goal but a biproduct of the hunt. These guys still are thrilled with a nice point. They still love their dogs. They still are excited with a bird in the bag. They still are amazed at a great shot and laugh at the misses. These guys aren't at war with the grouse. They aren't trying to "kill em all". They just hunt a lot and shoot some birds. They still enjoy the thrill of a flush, it just doesn't startle them anymore.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

the grouse hunters i know consider it bad manners to discuss killing grouse. they talk about numbers flushed.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

dogwhistle said:


> the grouse hunters i know consider it bad manners to discuss killing grouse. they talk about numbers flushed.


Fair enough.

Is it possible for a guy to flush/point 500 birds in a season? 1000? 1500? 2000?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Is it possible for a guy to flush/point 500 birds in a season? 1000? 1500? 2000?


YES!


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

Steelheadfred said:


> YES!



YES YES YES 

its possible

scott


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

timbergsp said:


> YES YES YES
> 
> its possible
> 
> scott


Ok. Are there a few people that actually do it? 

If that is the case, then would it follow that they shoot a few birds? If my memory is correct, the averages from the LODGH survey info is that 10 birds fly, 3 are shot at, 1 is killed. With the averages in mind, it would follow that 1000 flushes = 100 birds in the bag. 

What is an average flush/day in 2005 for those of us following this thread? What about in the high of the cycle? How many days would one have to hunt to find 1000 birds?

20 birds/day = 50 days
30 birds/day = 34 days

Is it time or talent that makes it possible?


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

You can relate this to a number of things like waterfoweling, or steelheading.

A grouse killer would be very proficient at his sport and all variables are taken out of the equation. Success is predicatable and will happen on any given outing(note not hunt) and as a result you are more going through the motions then you are hunting. There is no, "I hope we get some points today", since you know you will.

Same with steelheading or waterfoweling, if success is a foregone conclusion can you really get as much enjoyment out of it as you would if there was some doubt of success? I don't know how many banner duck or steelhead days that I've had where I didn't go again for a couple weeks, because if I was to turn around and go the next day, success is predictable hence the enjoyment is gone.

At this point in life, I don't consider myself a "Steelhead Fisherman" since my success on any given day is perdictable, as a result I find myself not telling the wife I'm going "fishing" tonight, but I'm going to "catch" a few before dark.

Being too successful at anything is a curse, since for most it takes a large amount of enjoyment out of the sport.

Sort of like Rudi's Dad was alluding to, many people may be a hardcore bird hunter for 10 years and once they reach a high level of predicable success, realize it is not as fun anymore and move on to something else that poses more of a challenge to them.

Also, IMHO, assigning your self a label such as a Grouse Killer, is actually sort of arrogant. It would be like Fritz labeling himself a "Center pinning guru", may or may not be true, but typically such a moniker is assigned by someone else who see's Fritz's skills and appreciates them.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Well that Center Pin has hardly been producing this past week so I guess I am just a Center Pin Fisherman rather than a Center Pin Catcher!:lol: 


Good Post


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> Ok. Are there a few people that actually do it?
> 
> If that is the case, then would it follow that they shoot a few birds? If my memory is correct, the averages from the LODGH survey info is that 10 birds fly, 3 are shot at, 1 is killed. With the averages in mind, it would follow that 1000 flushes = 100 birds in the bag.
> 
> ...


I think that it is both. Just like talking about steelheading. You have to work for what you get. The more you hunt the better you will be and the more talented you will be. So I guess it is a combo of both time and talent that allows you to kill a large number of birds or catch a large number of fish for that matter. 
Ric


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Bad days are a good thing, it makes you appreciate the good ones more.

I fished with Ben the other week and when I asked him how he got into pinning, he said he met you on the river. You must know something since imitation is the best form of flattery.

Don't know if it was a dig about the "catching" thing, but anyone that knows me knows I'm about the last person on earth that has an ego about any accomplishment or success and would never dream of assigning myself a moniker. When I go after steelhead, I'm going out to catch fish, it is foregone that it is going to happen and trust me, unlike TC, I wish that Tonello would actually stock less fish to make it a little more challenging than it is. The reasons that I'm successful, is I live in a great area and also had a great mentor, hardly anything has to do with skill on my part. I'm getting off track though.


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

Becoming proficient at killing Grouse is like learning how to hit a Fastball or Curveball, the more you see, the easier it gets.

Ric and I have talked about this in the past, Fritz kills alot of birds because he flushes alot of birds, he'll probably see as many birds training in August as I will in two years. I'm guessing they seem like they're flying a little slower to him than they are to me or others who don't have the chance to flush as many birds.

When I duck hunt, I can say, "Man that was an easy shot, how did I miss" because I've shot at alot of ducks in my life. I never say that when I'm Grouse hunting because 90% of the shots at grouse seem difficult to me. 

And I would label Fritz as more of a "Martin Guru"


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

I put my flushs on a spread sheet in my PDA i carry in my truck I didnt keep track of my kills this year but I have a pretty goood guess 

How do some of you keep track and/or do any of you keep track

scott


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

TSS Caddis said:


> Also, IMHO, assigning your self a label such as a Grouse Killer, is actually sort of arrogant.


Don't agree. I know you prefaced the comment with IMHO, but without more to substantiate calling a person arrogant (i.e. overly convinced of one's self importance, insolent, etc.), a label is just that -- a label, moniker, nickname, whatever.


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

TSS Caddis said:


> Bad days are a good thing, it makes you appreciate the good ones more.


This is true (However, i'll refer to them as unsuccessful days, no day in the woods or water is bad), the unsuccessfull days make the good ones all that much sweeter.

I wouldn't trade some of the slow days I've had on the banks of a river steelheading for anything. Some of the best memories that I've had are bullsh*ttin' on the banks of a river for hours on end or sitting around the campfire after an unsuccessful grouse hunt on an 80 degree day.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

GVSUKUSH said:


> This is true (However, i'll refer to them as unsuccessful days, no day in the woods or water is bad), the unsuccessfull days make the good ones all that much sweeter.
> 
> I wouldn't trade some of the slow days I've had on the banks of a river steelheading for anything. Some of the best memories that I've had are bullsh*ttin' on the banks of a river for hours on end or sitting around the campfire after an unsuccessful grouse hunt on an 80 degree day.



I agree Kush. Unsuccessful and successful days are what keep you coming back. It is the good days you always talk about and cant wait to have another but you know inside that you have to go through some low spots to get to the high ones. I cant tell you how many times I think about our trip to North Dakota and just wish that it was the same way here but its not, so until I go again I will take what I can get and enjoy the company while doing so.
Ric


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

Hevi said:


> Another guy that needs 2 Setters to get the job done......


 Actually, there are "three" of those darn dogs, laying around here now. lol Brian.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

kek25 said:


> Don't agree. I know you prefaced the comment with IMHO, but without more to substantiate calling a person arrogant (i.e. overly convinced of one's self importance, insolent, etc.), a label is just that -- a label, moniker, nickname, whatever.


The difference being that someone else is assigning the label.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

TSS Caddis said:


> The difference being that someone else is assigning the label.


Welcome to the Upland forum, my name is Scott and I believe you may have just called me arrogant :rant: :lol:


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

FieldWalker said:


> Welcome to the Upland forum, my name is Scott and I believe you may have just called me arrogant :rant: :lol:


Even better, someone from Rockford, err Belmont, called you arrogant. :lol:


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Fred you may not shoot 100 Grouse this year......................


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

But you started a thread that got a 100 replies about it.:lol:


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> This is where I got the 10 flushed-3 shot a-1 killed that I mentioned in my post. Those averages play out in both high and low years. In your numbers it 95 flushes, 34 shot at, & 10 dead. The ratio is dang close to 10-3-1.
> 
> Now do the math backwards. If a hunter can flush 20/day or 30/day, the numbers get you back to 100 rather easily.
> 
> I'll put the overall numbers in perspective. Kens numbers from 82-83 indicate a season long TOTAL flushed birds of 95 birds. In some parts of the US that is a good year. But they may not apply to premium covers in a premium state. Just last month, I spent a weekend chasing birds and flushed 37 birds on a Friday near Baldwin, 35 on Saturday near Kalkaska, and 29 on Sunday near Grayling. I flushed 101 birds in 3 days. OK, I just did his AVERAGE season in 3 days. Can a guy with enough covers repeat that for another 40 days? I think they can given enough time.


Good point. I need to quit my job and be a full time grouse bumb. I still want a clarification though, are we talking grouse or grouse and woodcock? I too have had long weekends with well over 100 birds flushed (no repeats counted on purpose) and have yet to post those kind of average numbers. I am becoming a better shot and hope to some day get to the end of the rainbow.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Ruger1 said:


> I later went into the 'head' and looking in the mirror I saw "stupid" stamped on my forehead - guess this guy must have seen it also!


Were you ever able to get that stamp off your forehead? :lol:  :lol:


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

BIGSP,

We are talking GROUSE.

Ruger1,

Believe what you want to believe but it happens, it happens. 

They are the kind of guys that would never tell you though, for the reason that they get lambasted for being game hogs, liers, tree sluicers, and ground pounders.


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## Ruger1 (Sep 27, 2004)

Four more vodka martinis and I couldn't see a thing   !

Ruger1


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## Ruger1 (Sep 27, 2004)

Mr. Steelhead Fred -

Don't believe you could name the easternmost state in the United States - and if you can I'll look you up and buy you a vodka martini the next time I'm in TC.

Ruger1


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

I'm going with Hawaii. Not sure but, isn't it in the eastern hemisphere? Brian.


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## upnut (Aug 31, 2004)

Better yet, which states are farthest east, west, north and south. I think you'll be surprised...Scott


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Hmmm.... is this like the "Which state has the lowest highest point?"


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## HarleyP (Mar 4, 2004)

Didn't this thread start out with a story problem?


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Who's on 1st?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Ruger1 said:


> Mr. Steelhead Fred -
> 
> Don't believe you could name the easternmost state in the United States - and if you can I'll look you up and buy you a vodka martini the next time I'm in TC.
> 
> Ruger1


I'm not believeing anything but facts.


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## Rudi's Dad (May 4, 2004)

Man, I am beginning to see what you guys are talking about when you say your are in *"Freds world"*


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> I know that you aren't one either.


How do you know that? Oh yeah, I told ya so. I'm a hunter not a Grouse Killer.
I haven't perfected the craft yet, but someday, maybe after retirement if my knees hold up until then.


> There was a study done by Ken Szabo and he took results from 258 differen't hunters from 5 states in the 1982-83 grouse season.
> Here are the averages
> 61.5 hours hunted
> 95.5 flushes
> ...


Those are averages. These numbers would be compiled from the group "B" and group "W" hunters that Fred started the thread with, very few group "A" (Grouse Killers) guys even exist. 
Go back and look at those LODGH numbers and you'll find guys that kill 100 pats in a season. A guy from Minnesota with a golden retriever did it last year.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

I just think everyone needs a hug  

And who cares what the eastern most state is. We all know where to find at least a couple birds and isnt that what this is all about?
Jr


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## HarleyP (Mar 4, 2004)

I want to know what the eastern most state is.... really.


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## HarleyP (Mar 4, 2004)

Ruger1 - Maine. I'll take mine shaken, not stirred, thank you very much.


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

HarleyP said:


> Ruger1 - Maine. I'll take mine shaken, not stirred, thank you very much.


They shake Cosmo's Dave?


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## HarleyP (Mar 4, 2004)

What's a Cosmo? Better yet, just pour me a double of Maker's Mark.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

HarleyP said:


> What's a Cosmo? Better yet, just pour me a double of Maker's Mark.


Cosmo, it is a magazine that Kush reads while at work.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

Ruger. Here ya go. I don't take many pics nor post them often but if a pic is worth a 1000 words......


6 hours of hunting and 2 shy of a 4 man limit. I have more pics somewhere if you want to see some more good days.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Dave Medema said:


> Ruger. Here ya go. I don't take many pics nor post them often but if a pic is worth a 100 words......
> 
> 
> 6 hours of hunting and 2 shy of a 4 man limit. I have more pics somewhere if you want to see some more good days.


Just for anyone counting... I see 3 setters


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

FieldWalker said:


> Just for anyone counting... I see 3 setters


Look closer. My 2 are in the kennels resting. 5 dogs all setters. All fieldtrial lines. Now the fur will fly.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

I could have really put the hammer down this season if I wanted to. To me 100 birds a season does not seem out of line if a guy puts in the time to do so.

I'm not sure where I fit into this equation as a grouse dog trainer. I spend almost every day in the woods from July15th to Nov.14th. My dogs are sharp come season. I could really do some damage to the grouse population. Most of the birds shot are buy the owners coming to watch their dog work and most of them don't hit very many.

Am I a hunter? You bet I am. Even though I don't shoot but a few birds a season. To me there is nothing better than watching a young grouse dog learn it's trade. The development to a finished grouse dog can take 2 to 3 years (seasons). Each dog is different and the challange in bringing out the best in each dog is a journey in itself. It is a very satifying life to me. The pride I feel is that of a craftman (I am a journeyman mold maker by trade). When a dog is a truely finished grouse dog it is something to behold. No matter how many birds you shoot for him.

I do not look down on any hunter A,B, or W. There is a part of me in each one of them.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

That's a nice year there Dave, but how do you keep 'em all fresh for a year end photo? :lol: You must have one of those fancy vacuum sealers. :lol: 

Is the guy standing next to you from Mi.? He looks familiar.


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## upnut (Aug 31, 2004)

I want to know what the eastern most state is.... really.

The furthest one south is also the furthest one east. The furthest one north is also the furthest one west. Which only leaves you two choices....Scott...


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Back woods said:


> I could have really put the hammer down this season if I wanted to. To me 100 birds a season does not seem out of line if a guy puts in the time to do so.
> 
> I'm not sure where I fit into this equation as a grouse dog trainer. I spend almost every day in the woods from July15th to Nov.14th. My dogs are sharp come season. I could really do some damage to the grouse population. Most of the birds shot are buy the owners coming to watch their dog work and most of them don't hit very many.
> 
> ...


You need your own personal category.

Hunter T - for trainer, the who could if he wanted but does not!


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Is the guy standing next to you from Mi.? He looks familiar.


Those guys are some of my gang. We shoot, hunt, ski, fish, drink, play cards, train dogs, etc. All are from the GR area.


Backwoods, trainers are in their own world. I admire all you do and am envious of the experiences of watching the dogs mature. Each fall, some of my more memorable days are hunting with guys and young dogs. It's just a hoot to watch them learn.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I will submit that it may be possible but, with a caveat. You had better spend at least 50 days in the woods and it better be a year where the cycle is up.

It is just hard for me to fathom someone being able to hunt 50+ days a year. I am one jealous bastard that is for sure.

Grush I haven't perfected my craft yet either and neither have my dogs but, when that cycle comes back around and I get an extra couple of weeks vacation I will put a hurtin on them. Still doubt that I will ever get to 100 grouse/year in my lifetime.

You gotta have goals though, right?

Good Luck to everyone tomorrow or, the next couple of days.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

HarleyP said:


> Ruger1 - Maine. I'll take mine shaken, not stirred, thank you very much.


You better think outside the box there young grasshopper.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

Dave Medema said:


> Those guys are some of my gang. We shoot, hunt, ski, fish, drink, play cards, train dogs, etc. All are from the GR area.QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Sounds like my kind of crowd.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

I want to play the map game.


Sheesh you guys don't use Google?

Eastern most point in the US is in Alaska - Semisopochnoi point. It is also the western most state. 

Maine is the easternmost in the lower 48 - West Quoddy Head.


Depending on the season, I may have a gin and tonic, or a scotch, or a beer, sometimes just a Dr. Pepper is fine too. Don't shake the Dr. Pepper.


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## upnut (Aug 31, 2004)

Ummmm......Where does Hawaii fit in ???...Scott
OOPS...Should've asked Jeeves first....Those darned Aleution Islands


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> I want to play the map game.
> 
> 
> Sheesh you guys don't use Google?
> ...


This is what happens during deer season, you guys have way too much time on your hands.

Don't shake the Dr. Pepper :lol: Outstanding work Dave!


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## HarleyP (Mar 4, 2004)

Alaska doesn't count. 

Dave - Personally, I think that's a sweet pic. Nice haul.


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

upnut said:


> Ummmm......Where does Hawaii fit in ???...Scott


 Well, if Hawaii is in the eastern hemisphere. How much "more" east can you get? Being that, the rest of the 49 states are all in the western hemisphere. If you travel east from the main land, leaving the western hemisphere and continue going around the world. You will eventually get to Hawaii, the most eastern state of the 50. Brian.


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## Ruger1 (Sep 27, 2004)

Am pleased by the interest that my "...eastern most..." post has generated but I feel I should in all fairness re-phrase the question: "What state has within its boundaries the most easternest point and the most westernest point in the United States?"

Also: In geographic parlance there is a definitive northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere but the concept of an "eastern" and a "western" hemisphere is rather vague. If one was to view the earth from space with the north pole at the top, as we are accustomed to viewing our planet and divide it north/south the equator would be a natural dividing line. There is no such natural east/west dividing line although throughout history there have been a multitude of arbitrary ones.

Still admire your interest, apologize for being way off thread but have a passion for geography. Thanks again for your interest.

Ruger1


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Getting back to the orginal post ( how many is enough) those that brought up a 100 birds per season isn't all that far fetched. In my younger years with out dogs or ethics back when the numbers of birds were way up I'm sure I had a coulpe 100 + a years of grouse only. But sorry to say that encluded all form of taking grouse out the window, ground swatting, and tree swatting also. That old rumor about shooting more than one grouse out of a tree if you start at the bottom and work up is TRUE. I'm sure I took over my daily limmit a few times also. When your young (at least for me) you don't worry about tomarrow it's all about numbers, I can or did shoot more than YOU. Maybe now that I seem to have daily health problems maybe it's God way of saying I told you so only kill your dayly limmit and due it ethical! 

I have some pictures of limmits of grouse taken over my dog also I just can't locate them right now but here is one thats close I even got these hunting on crutches!










Dave knowbody going to give you crap about all those birds shot over setters ( I see one of them is just a pup ) we all have different breeds to suit or different likes and hunting styles but even the hard core non setter guys I think will admitt setters due find grouse!


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## Ruger1 (Sep 27, 2004)

Mr. GVSUKUSH -

Just caught your post and congrats'. Alaska's Aleutien Islands extend across 180 degrees west longitude and into east longitude. I owe you a Grey Goose martini and hope one day to settle up but BIGSP can pay for the steaks:lol: :lol: .

Ruger1


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

Ruger1 said:


> Mr. GVSUKUSH -
> 
> Just caught your post and congrats'. Alaska's Aleutien Islands extend across 180 degrees west longitude and into east longitude. I owe you a Grey Goose martini and hope one day to settle up but BIGSP can pay for the steaks:lol: :lol: .
> 
> Ruger1


 
Whoa. Hang on there sailor. I came up with Alaska not kush. I even gave you the specific island in the Aleutiens - Semisophnoi Island. I also noted that Alaska therefore also has the westernmost point - essentially right next door to Semisophnoi. For extra credit, I gave Maine - West Quoddy Head - as the easternmost point in the lower 48. 

I do like grey goose though. Send a PM for collection point, BIGSP can still pay for the steaks.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Ruger1 said:


> Mr. GVSUKUSH -
> 
> 
> Ruger1


NO ONE CALLS KUSH MR. and I mean NO one, your liable to get some bad karma by calling him MR.:lol:


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

Dave Medema said:


> My liest combo is 3 hunters. 2 guys as dedicated shooters, always looking to be in the right place - all the time.
> 
> One guy is the dog handler and is primarily focussed on the dog. When the dog is on point, he works in concert with the dog, trying to push the bird into one of the shooters. This guy also has a gun, but he may have to get into the nasties to put the bird up in the right direction. He has to be a dog first and a shooter second.
> 
> This works well if egos are put on hold and the dog we use is the best one for that particular cover. The rest of the dogs wait their turn and serve as a homing beacon back to the truck.


Dave you truely know how to getter done. This is the best way I have found as well.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I like two guys with two big running dogs (setters) nothing prettier than a coming up on a setter on point than have another setter on an honest back.


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