# Very important! Please read!



## trappergirl7 (Oct 4, 2008)

Hey, everyone!

I am a member of the Natural Resources Commissions Mentored Youth Hunting Program Workgroup. This workgroup's purpose is to develop a Youth Mentoring Program for children under the age of 10 that would like to hunt in Michigan; the creation of this program was approved by Governor Snyder a few months ago. As a member of this workgroup, I am interested in receiving your opinions and feedback on a number of questions our workgroup is currently considering. Please take a few moments to answer the questions posed by the survey at this link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/VMY6KGT. Please do so by September 15th. Your feedback will be extremely valuable to us as we develop this program. 

If you have any questions/comments/concerns, feel free to post them in this thread, or email me. My email is [email protected]. Also, make sure to pass on the link to anyone you know that would be interested in completing the survey. I've already taken it, and it doesn't take much time: about 10 minutes, tops. Like I said, your feedback is incredibly valuable and it would help our workgroup immensely in the development of this program.

Thank you so much for your time! I really appreciate it.

Emily Caretti


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## ThumbDweller (Aug 2, 2007)

Survey completed. Overall, i am very hesitant about this idea. I don't think it is a good idea. My eight and nine year old kids are not ready to be in the field with a loaded gun. 

Ten is plenty early, and too early for some.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

I don't agree as well. I also feel 10 yrs old is too young for 90% of the
kids to be afield with a loaded gun.


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## gooseboy (Jul 11, 2008)

i thought the same way, but Ohio had no minimum age level, so I took my son down there when he was 9 to an extensive father/son hunter safety camp, 3 full days with an extensive writtten exam, from rifles, scatter guns, muzzle loaders, bows, first aid, trapping, and boater safety. This was taught by several conservation officers. The camp was full of mature youngsters with their fathers and some instances a couple mothers. With the right education and guidance from the parent AND instructors, i believe just about any youth COULD be mature AND responsible enough. Accidents will happen, and it doesnt matter what age the hunter is...I know mine was at the time. Just because you dont think your child could not handle it does not mean mine couldnt or didnt, BTW he is now 17 and a duck n goose killing machine. I will tell you this, taking my son for his first goose hunt and handing him a loaded 20 ga in the blind was almost tear dropping, and that is no BS. I will try to find a pic of his first goose from that hunt and post the the pic


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

i didnt read the survey or whatever. 


should be NO age limit. should be discretion of the parent...not the state.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i didnt read the survey or whatever.
> 
> 
> should be NO age limit. should be discretion of the parent...not the state.


I agree. 

As a parent I know what my kid's are ready for and what they are not ready for.

I'll be having my 8 year old hunting in a few controlled situations once this takes effect. 20 ga turkey gun with red dot on bi pod in blind for example. My soon to be 5 year old might also get his chance.


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## Quack R (Oct 7, 2010)

I think it should be parents choice.. Although i do see parents needing to ask themselves IF i get hurt can my child/youth handle the situation by themselves? I think they need to have some extensive classes for hunters safety though. We dont really have a really hard hunter safety course now.


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## duckbuster2 (Aug 14, 2008)

Most kids 8 or 9 should not be hunting with a gun ,and a lot of there parents shouldn't either.


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## maddiedog (Nov 21, 2008)

That is the idea. You don't think your 8 year old is ready so therefore don't let them. I know plenty of people myself included that sat with their dads out duck/deer hunting and "helped" them shoot a deer before 14 years old.


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

A lot of kids I know should be allowed to hunt, most of them listen better and shoot better than most adults. 
You can not base Ur opinion on city life. Kids outside of the city start shooting guns at a very early age.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

TSS Caddis said:


> I agree.
> 
> As a parent I know what my kid's are ready for and what they are not ready for.QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Huntinman225 (Sep 24, 2005)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i didnt read the survey or whatever.
> 
> 
> should be NO age limit. should be discretion of the parent...not the state.


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## trappergirl7 (Oct 4, 2008)

For those of you who are hesitant about this program, I can understand why you have concerns. You're right; some children aren't ready to hunt at such a young age. I'm 16, so I don't truly understand the whole concerned-parent aspect, but I do understand that safety should be a primary concern when taking someone out in the woods, especially a child. I was raised to live by a high code of ethics, safety, and responsibility, so I take this very seriously; I'm not a random delinquent running around in the woods with a loaded gun. Our workgroup is carefully considering how we can make create this program, while ensuring that everyone involved (the mentor, the mentee, and the other hunters in the woods) stays safe. 

Quack R made a good point about hunter's ed. I'm a huge proponent of not necessarily formal classes, but giving people (especially youth) education prior to partaking in our sports; I was involved in the creation of Michigan's Trapper Education Program, so I'm probably biased. I've taken hunter's ed, and I truly think that the quality of the class really depends on where you go. The class I took was in Alcona County, and it was 4 days. It was very extensive, and I learned a lot. I'm aware of the fact that most classes are only 1 or 2 days. But the job of the mentor/parent is to be a teacher to the kid that they are taking out, although I think that a lot of parents will make their kids go through hunter's ed before they will take their kid out anyway. Even if the class isn't necessarily "hard," I think that it would still provide the child with basic knowledge that they will need/use in the field.

For those of you who think that it should be up to the parents, I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly. The job of the mentor (whom, in most cases, will be one of the child's parents) is to be a teacher to the mentee, and to use discretion when taking them out in the woods. Obviously, a mentor isn't going to hand a 5 year old a .30-06 and turn them loose. The mentor should be aware of the child's capabilities, and take those into account when deciding if/when/where they take them into the woods. Like you guys already said, some kids are not ready to hunt at such an early age, but then again, some are. Like wildcoy73 said, some kids (especially those who don't live in the city) start shooting long before others, therefore making them more prepared to hunt at a younger age.

Thank you for your feedback, and please keep it coming!

Emily


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

trappergirl7 said:


> For those of you who are hesitant about this program, I can understand why you have concerns. You're right; some children aren't ready to hunt at such a young age. I'm 16, so I don't truly understand the whole concerned-parent aspect, but I do understand that safety should be a primary concern when taking someone out in the woods, especially a child. I was raised to live by a high code of ethics, safety, and responsibility, so I take this very seriously; I'm not a random delinquent running around in the woods with a loaded gun. Our workgroup is carefully considering how we can make create this program, while ensuring that everyone involved (the mentor, the mentee, and the other hunters in the woods) stays safe.
> 
> Quack R made a good point about hunter's ed. I'm a huge proponent of not necessarily formal classes, but giving people (especially youth) education prior to partaking in our sports; I was involved in the creation of Michigan's Trapper Education Program, so I'm probably biased. I've taken hunter's ed, and I truly think that the quality of the class really depends on where you go. The class I took was in Alcona County, and it was 4 days. It was very extensive, and I learned a lot. I'm aware of the fact that most classes are only 1 or 2 days. But the job of the mentor/parent is to be a teacher to the kid that they are taking out, although I think that a lot of parents will make their kids go through hunter's ed before they will take their kid out anyway. Even if the class isn't necessarily "hard," I think that it would still provide the child with basic knowledge that they will need/use in the field.
> 
> ...


For being 16, very well said.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Better spoken than most of the adult engineers I work with....

My daughter is 8 and can handle her 20 just fine, she's just not ready to kill something with it. Fish are not an issue, but shooting something seems to violent for her, so I'm not going to push it. If she changes later, that's her choice.

She still bails out of the blind and fetches though.


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## adam bomb (Feb 27, 2006)

Im all for NO age limit. Kids are different sizes, different maturities at any given age.(heck, look at some of the responses from "adults" on this site!) Some want to hunt and can handle a gun. If they can and their parents think they can, i say let em. Why deny some because others are not ready?


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## casscityalum (Aug 27, 2007)

wildcoy73 said:


> You can not base Ur opinion on city life. Kids outside of the city start shooting guns at a very early age.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Thats right, their the ones running around shooting bb guns at each other or shooting windows outta barns, song birds etc, darn country kids!! :rant:



















Just a joke so please take it easy :evilsmile


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

TSS Caddis said:


> I agree.
> 
> As a parent I know what my kid's are ready for and what they are not ready for.
> 
> I'll be having my 8 year old hunting in a few controlled situations once this takes effect. 20 ga turkey gun with red dot on bi pod in *blind *for example. My soon to be 5 year old might also get his chance.


They should also have to learn the discipline to beat their quarries defenses, not have something handed to them..


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> Better spoken than most of the adult engineers I work with....
> 
> My daughter is 8 and can handle her 20 just fine, she's just not ready to kill something with it. Fish are not an issue, but shooting something seems to violent for her, so I'm not going to push it. If she changes later, that's her choice.
> 
> She still bails out of the blind and fetches though.


What type of 20 ga. do you have for an 8 yr. old???

I have a youth model 20 gauge, single shot for my 11 yr. old, and it's still heavy and akward for her to handle,, and she's a pretty good sized 11 yr. old.


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

honestly, im all for a no age limit. Im 17 years old now, but have been going out into the woods with my grandpa since i could walk. I was raised around guns and had a bb gun right away as a kid. With this my grandpa taught me firearm safety and he and my parents strictly enforced it. I NEVER pointed my gun at something i wasnt going to shoot, and i had very good discretion. The amount of mental maturity in 7-12 year old kids can range immensely, and i dont believe the state can come up with a guideline age. I know some 8 year olds that could handle a firearm responsibly, and i know some 13 year olds that shouldnt have a gun put in their hands. It should be up to the parents to decide when their child is ready. An intensive firearm safety class should be offer like the one described in OH.


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

BFG said:


> I passed hunter safety a month prior to turning 9 years old. I hunted squirrels that fall with a single shot 20 gauge with my Dad at my side the entire time. I killed one squirrel that year, but scared a bunch more. I was exposed to firearms at a very young age, as it was something that the men in our family discussed at get-togethers.
> 
> I was 12 before I could safely handle a 12 gauge pump. At 13 I slug hunted deer for the first time, and took my first at age 15.
> 
> ...


I like this post.


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## kmac5 (Nov 18, 2005)

I second that Bonney very well written....


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

ThumbDweller said:


> Survey completed. Overall, i am very hesitant about this idea. I don't think it is a good idea. My eight and nine year old kids are not ready to be in the field with a loaded gun.
> 
> Ten is plenty early, and too early for some.


You speak the truth. 

We've had over 1000 kids through Hunter's Safety in the pat half dozen years. We do live fire with 20 gauge shotguns; a youth 870 and a number of youth 1187s. It's simply too big and heavy for most of these youngsters. Cognitively, they aren't as advanced as someone 12 or older. Nor so they possess the motor skills to be at a constant "safe" mode in the field. First thing most do is put their finger on the trigger, the second is swing the muzzle everywhere but downrange. And this is in a highly controlled environment and after hours of instruction. 

Please save the "my kid is different" speech. There's a reason Hunters Safety, blaze orange and age requirements have dramatically lowered the hunter death toll in Michigan. Sadly, we lost a young hunter to a self-inflicted accident in 2010.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

TNL said:


> You speak the truth.
> 
> We've had over 1000 kids through Hunter's Safety in the pat half dozen years. We do live fire with 20 gauge shotguns; a youth 870 and a number of youth 1187s. It's simply too big and heavy for most of these youngsters. Cognitively, they aren't as advanced as someone 12 or older. Nor so they possess the motor skills to be at a constant "safe" mode in the field. First thing most do is put their finger on the trigger, the second is swing the muzzle everywhere but downrange. And this is in a highly controlled environment and after hours of instruction.
> 
> Please save the "my kid is different" speech. There's a reason Hunters Safety, blaze orange and age requirements have dramatically lowered the hunter death toll in Michigan. Sadly, we lost a young hunter to a self-inflicted accident in 2010.


No one is advocating handing an 8 year old a 20ga and having them start tromping around through the woods.

If I feel it is safe to prop a 20ga up on shooting sticks for 5,7 or 9 year old sitting next to me to shoot a turkey, that should be my choice. No different than me proping up the .22 on the shooting bench and letting them shoot at the range.

It seems those against this are under the impression that a 6 year old will be handed a gun and told to go walk through the woods. No doubt there are parents that will make bad decisions, but I'd wager the majority of parents are responsible and will only put their children in situations they feel they are ready for or can control. We are not the first state to do this.

It is really not if the child is ready, to me the question is more, is the parent capable of making appropriate decsions.


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## trentonbill (Jul 6, 2009)

All three of my children began hunting waterfowl and small game at the age of ten under the Hunter apprentice program, all three had passed the required hunter safety program before joining me on hunts. I enjoyed these hunts immensely with my children, they are some of my greatest memories to date with my kids. At times I wish I could have legally started them sooner; yes they would accompany me on hunts but as the law was written I could not let them shoot. 

I have read many of the comments left for this post, it is easy to see that quite a few people have very strong opinions on this matter. Some posts reflect more of a concern about parental hunting ethics then they do for the safety or experience of a younger hunter. I to share some of those feelings, more then I would care to admit. At this point I am of the opinion that more good can come from getting younger skilled hunters out with their adult hunting partners then I am with the hunter who "uses" his child simply for the extra tag. I would hope that the ethics of hunting would make their way into that childs life despite the example being set for them by the adult that they are with.

Trappergirl good luck with your endeavour


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> All three of my children began hunting waterfowl and small game at the age of ten under the Hunter apprentice program


My money says all three of your children started hunting well before the age of 10, they just didn't start shooting anything till they were ten.

I would also bet money they all three knew how to ID different ducks, basics of calling, decoy placement, etc before they started shooting ducks.

I guess what it boils down to is what is hunting. If it is simply the shooting of a game species then last season I hunted for just over a couple seconds.

Killing something is big and before a child starts killing things they should be able to understand such things as why we kill, what we kill, when we kill, how we kill, the food chain, consequences of overpopulation and population control........you know the things that every 5,6 or 7 year old fully understands.:lol:



> If I feel it is safe to prop a 20ga up on shooting sticks for 5,7 or 9 year old sitting next to me to shoot a turkey, that should be my choice. No different than me proping up the .22 on the shooting bench and letting them shoot at the range.


Propping a shotgun on shooting sticks and pulling the trigger when told to.......Hunting, no different then shooting targets, will give the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not mean this literally.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

2PawsRiver said:


> you know the things that every 5,6 or 7 year old fully understands.:lol:


They already know to not snag or line salmon, so they are already doing better than some:lol:

You really don't need to concern yourself with others familys and decide what is right or wrong for them.

I send my 7 year old to private tennis lessons. She is not as good as an adult and obviously could not play an adult. That said, I did not tell her should could not take lessons until she was able to play like an adult. She has appropriate lessons for her age. Same with hunting. My children will do what I think is appropriate for their age. Each of my children is different and each will be introduced to hunting in ways that are tailored to their needs.


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## duckhunter382 (Feb 13, 2005)

I am 29 and was walking with a shotgun at 8. My dad did not like the age limit of 12 and wasnt afraid to stand up against it. This change will make it so I dont have to break the law with my daughter.


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## duckhunter382 (Feb 13, 2005)

TNL said:


> You speak the truth.
> 
> We've had over 1000 kids through Hunter's Safety in the pat half dozen years. We do live fire with 20 gauge shotguns; a youth 870 and a number of youth 1187s. It's simply too big and heavy for most of these youngsters. Cognitively, they aren't as advanced as someone 12 or older. Nor so they possess the motor skills to be at a constant "safe" mode in the field. First thing most do is put their finger on the trigger, the second is swing the muzzle everywhere but downrange. And this is in a highly controlled environment and after hours of instruction.
> 
> Please save the "my kid is different" speech. There's a reason Hunters Safety, blaze orange and age requirements have dramatically lowered the hunter death toll in Michigan. Sadly, we lost a young hunter to a self-inflicted accident in 2010.


How many of those kids were taught at younger ages. I would bet the the kids you get that are good were trained by dad at ages as young as 6 and the others were made to wait until they were older. i dont like this law for deer but think it could be a good way to get younger hunters interested in small game and make them continue to hunt later in life. I had to ask for permission to load that old 410 at age 8 but I learned more about safety before I was 12 then I ever learned in a couple hour class.


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

TNL said:


> .
> 
> Please save the "my kid is different" speech. .


Yeeeeah,, but my kid _really_ is different...:lol:


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

duckhunter382 said:


> I am 29 and was walking with a shotgun at 8. My dad did not like the age limit of 12 and wasnt afraid to stand up against it. This change will make it so I dont have to break the law with my daughter.


Interesting, your dad "Wasn't afraid to stand up Against it" and yet you would of had to "Break the Law." Took the Reid Class a few years back, really impacts how you look at the written word.



> You really don't need to concern yourself with others familys and decide what is right or wrong for them.


In this situation I wasn't, I was simply expressing my position regarding a topic and on what information I base it.....without anger or some attempt at a veiled insult...and I believe when I told you what you could do about your insult and what I believed you would do about it, I was right.

It is law, won't lose any sleep over it, and I wish I could find my post on it during the first debate on this issue....it was one of my favorites.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

This isn't it, but this was my prediction for this deer season..



> If it passes I will predict..........drum rolll.............2 years, 7 months of age will be the youngest successful deer hunter this year.
> 
> There will be a picture of Cletus propping up the veteran hunter from behind, junior holding his 12 guage, one hand on the rack and Cletus explaining that Junior has been hunting with him since he was an inbreedo, started off by using Ethels baby bump as a gun rest. Cletus telling the story about how excited Cletus Jr. was, he seen that deer and dropped his bottle, crapped him pants, fortunately he was wearing a diaper.
> 
> ...


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

I guess if I was ethically challenged, I'd hope I'd be smart enough to not question others ethics.

Bottom line, I support a parents right to decide how their child should be raised. As part of that I am perfectly capable of deciding when my children are ready to hunt vs a government generalization of what is old enough.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

I agree that most people are capable of determInimg what and when is best for their children. Sadly the ability to breed is not always preceded by the ability to rear.

This topic for example. I explain my reasons why I don't support the change. The argument for the change is simply it's my child, I known what is best.

Many people do many bad things to children, many of them have the same argument, it's my child.

Relax, it's the law now, it was just a debate on the issue, could of just said because, like some that support did.......or I could have just resorted to insults, but mine would of at least been accurate.

I believe that most, regardless of what age will concentrate on teaching their children the most important things about the outdoors, and that honesting doesn't involve killing anything as a child.

Cletus will be out there. I have no doubt we have some successful 3 year old deer hunters, he was ready to hunt "cause" I said so. Gonna get a picture soon as he drags that deer up here.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

2PawsRiver said:


> I agree that most people are capable of determInimg what and when is best for their children. Sadly the ability to breed is not always preceded by the ability to rear.
> 
> This topic for example. I explain my reasons why I don't support the change. The argument for the change is simply it's my child, I known what is best.
> 
> ...


what i would like you to factor into your argument is....


how many other states have had no restrictions on age. how many of those states have bad results....how many of those states have stats supporting your claims of "cletus". How many of those states retained their hunting numbers....its not hard to argue this law...its been done, tried and results are out there. 

to state that MORE accidents are going to happen...is like saying people will starve and die if they don't get their welfare checks or crime will skyrocket. fear mongering...oldest trick in the book. Simply not true. This analogy parallels the youth age limit argument and method of fear mongering to get a desired end result (age limit). The results/statistics simply don't match your statements.

the parent should be the final say in when a youth hunts. Sometimes 12 isn't even mature enough. Only the parent or guardian knows this answer...not the state.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

We're getting close.




> http://mikehanback.typepad.com/mikehanbackcom/2008/01/4-year-old-kid.html


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