# Snakes on the river



## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

Seen this creeper salmon fishing on the big man. Pretty large I might add. Obviously a water moccasin but are they poisonous?


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

Non venomous 
If left alone nary a bite.


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## JJones (Aug 19, 2013)

Northern Water Snake (_Nerodia sipedon_). Non-venomous. We're about four or five hundred miles from the nearest Water Moccasin. That's another name for the Cottonmouth (_Agkistrodon piscivorus_) and it's too cold for them to survive our winters this far North. If you're in Michigan, and it doesn't have a rattle, it's not a threat to you.

I applaud you for taking a photo and not a potshot at a harmless snake. That happens way too often, _especially_ with this species.


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## swampbuck62 (Sep 11, 2006)

seeing that makes me want to move home to MI, do you have any idea how many types of poisonous snake we have here in GA.. 

Water moccasins, 
copperheads,
timber rattler, 
eastern diamond back,
Coral snake[extreme south GA]
pygmy rattle snake,
cane break rattle snake often mistaken for a timber rattler,*Dusk Rattlesnake*


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## S.B. Walleyes&Waterfowl (Jan 10, 2012)

When trout fishing in WV we always have to deal with cottonmouths. Sometimes they will even bite the dead fish on our stringers. Kill em all!

Sent from my SCH-I415 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## jasonvanorder (Feb 23, 2009)

While at the river in New Richmond yesterday for river rescue for the fire dept we had one of them swim right up to us at the boat launch. Not as big but close to 18 inches. Little bugger even had a fish in his mouth.


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## TheBearFan89 (Oct 2, 2012)

Caught one of those on a drunken tube excursion down the Chip river. Been catching snakes ever since I was a kid, and I hate the morons who try to tell me some snake is poisonous. Only poisonous snake in MI is the Massassauga Rattlesnake.


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## JJones (Aug 19, 2013)

S.B. Walleyes&Waterfowl said:


> When trout fishing in WV we always have to deal with cottonmouths. Sometimes they will even bite the dead fish on our stringers. Kill em all!


That's not very sportsman-like. Every year in the US, horses and deer (individually) kill ten times the number of people as all venomous snakes combined. You wouldn't recommend that we kill all of the deer and horses, would you? What about the family dog? They're twice as likely to kill you as a venomous snake. Statistically speaking, killing a venomous snake will save as many people as killing a vending machine (which kill about the same number of people in the US) and actually _increases_ your odds of being bitten exponentially. When you consider the amount of good they do by keeping rodent-borne illness in check, it's just plain irresponsible to kill snakes out of something as silly as irrational fear. We need them just as much as we need the cute, fuzzy animals. Just some food for thought.


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

JJones said:


> That's not very sportsman-like. Every year in the US, horses and deer (individually) kill ten times the number of people as all venomous snakes combined. You wouldn't recommend that we kill all of the deer and horses, would you? What about the family dog? They're twice as likely to kill you as a venomous snake. Statistically speaking, killing a venomous snake will save as many people as killing a vending machine (which kill about the same number of people in the US) and actually _increases_ your odds of being bitten exponentially. When you consider the amount of good they do by keeping rodent-borne illness in check, it's just plain irresponsible to kill snakes out of something as silly as irrational fear. We need them just as much as we need the cute, fuzzy animals. Just some food for thought.


 I love the vending machine comparison.:lol:


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## Huffy (Jan 19, 2009)

JJones said:


> it's just plain irresponsible to kill snakes out of something as silly as irrational fear.


Being afraid of a cottonmouth is not "irrational." If you don't believe me, let one bite you. I guarantee that'll convince you that any rational person would know to be afraid of them.

I agree that snakes perform an important function. But there's a difference between living in a state like Michigan where nearly every snake is non-venomous, and living in one of the southern states. I spent many years hunting in south Georgia. Copperheads, cottonmouths, and rattlers were rampant. They found their way into cabins, cook sheds, campers, and everywhere else imaginable on a pretty much daily basis. Measures had to be taken to keep their numbers in check. This was not due to "irrational fear," but due to the realization that the population of venomous snakes had to be managed in order to protect human life.


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## swampbuck62 (Sep 11, 2006)

Huffy said:


> Being afraid of a cottonmouth is not "irrational." If you don't believe me, let one bite you. I guarantee that'll convince you that any rational person would know to be afraid of them.
> 
> I agree that snakes perform an important function. But there's a difference between living in a state like Michigan where nearly every snake is non-venomous, and living in one of the southern states. I spent many years hunting in south Georgia. Copperheads, cottonmouths, and rattlers were rampant. They found their way into cabins, cook sheds, campers, and everywhere else imaginable on a pretty much daily basis. Measures had to be taken to keep their numbers in check. This was not due to "irrational fear," but due to the realization that the population of venomous snakes had to be managed in order to protect human life.


Ditto.....


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

JJones said:


> That's not very sportsman-like. Every year in the US, horses and deer (individually) kill ten times the number of people as all venomous snakes combined. You wouldn't recommend that we kill all of the deer and horses, would you? What about the family dog? They're twice as likely to kill you as a venomous snake. Statistically speaking, killing a venomous snake will save as many people as killing a vending machine (which kill about the same number of people in the US) and actually _increases_ your odds of being bitten exponentially. When you consider the amount of good they do by keeping rodent-borne illness in check, it's just plain irresponsible to kill snakes out of something as silly as irrational fear. We need them just as much as we need the cute, fuzzy animals. Just some food for thought.


Although all populations ultimately might need to be managed, this is the same rationale that I apply to large carnivores.....


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## JJones (Aug 19, 2013)

I never said that it's irrational to be afraid of a venomous reptile in your dwelling. Nor do I think that responsible hunting of them is wrong. By that, I mean obeying local bag limits. We are a natural part of the food chain and are duty-bound as outdoorsmen to keep the balance. The poster that I quoted said that he wanted to kill all of the Water Moccasins because they have to deal with them while out fishing. That is nothing more than irrational fear. 

The majority of snakebites are caused by someone putting themselves in that position. If you've seen it in time to kill it, then it's not a threat to you unless you decide to make it one. Snake-rich areas are also rich in herpetological societies and animal control agencies that will remove the snake for you. Being afraid to have a venomous snake near you is perfectly natural. Being afraid to the point that you will knowingly risk your own death to get rid of it is the _definition_ of irrational. As is the desire to kill them all. 

It is not your responsibility to keep populations in check. That's the responsibility of Game and Fish agencies. Mentalities like that have decimated Timber, Massasauga, Pygmy, and Eastern Diamondback rattlesnake populations to the point of total extirpation in much of their historical range. I'm not even going to ask how long your seasons were down there because your taking, "measures," on an, "almost daily basis," might put you over Georgia's bag limits. Your only responsibility is to hunt legally and ethically and use common sense in the field. That includes securing any buildings that you knowingly put in venomous snake habitat. 

BTW, I've never been to Georgia. But I did just move here from Arizona, the rattlesnake capital of the world. I grew up in a place with 13 species and 6 additional subspecies of rattlesnakes. I encountered hundreds, every year, at close range, and never had an incident. (Common sense goes a long way in snake habitat.)

I'm done ranting now, and I'm already starting to regret replying to S.B. Walleyes&Waterfowl. If we could please get this thread back on track, I would gladly continue this in another thread or via PM. Limige, do you have any other snakes to share?


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## JJones (Aug 19, 2013)

dead short said:


> Although all populations ultimately might need to be managed, this is the same rationale that I apply to large carnivores.....


 Agreed.


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## Huffy (Jan 19, 2009)

JJones said:


> It is not your responsibility to keep populations in check. That's the responsibility of Game and Fish agencies. . . . I'm not even going to ask how long your seasons were down there because your taking, "measures," on an, "almost daily basis," might put you over Georgia's bag limits. Your only responsibility is to hunt legally . . . .


The "Game and Fish agencies" you speak of, and the Georgia Legislature, fulfill their responsibility to keep the populations of venomous snakes in check by designating venomous snakes as an unprotected species. Thus, when I killed snakes that posed a threat I was within the law. (I should point out that your use of the term "hunting" is incorrect. Hunting implies that I was actively pursuing or sneaking out snakes to kill. This was not the case at all. I only dispatched those that entered my living area despite my use of deterrents, such as the spreading of lime, etc). 

I realized that you don't think that anyone should kill a venomous snake. But just because you don't think it's right doesn't make it illegal, or the person that does it unethical. 

Ga. Code Ann. 27-1-28:
(a) Except as otherwise provided by law, rule, or regulation, it shall be unlawful to hunt, trap, fish, take, possess, or transport any nongame species of wildlife, *except that the following species may be taken by any method except those specifically prohibited by law or regulation*:

***

(8) Poisonous snakes;


Ga. Code Ann. 27-1-30:
Except as otherwise provided by law or regulation, it shall be unlawful to disturb, mutilate, or destroy the dens, holes, or homes of any wildlife; to blind wildlife with lights; or to use explosives, chemicals, electrical or mechanical devices, or smokers of any kind in order to drive such wildlife out of such habitats, *provided that this Code section shall not apply to poisonous snakes*.

And, from Georgia's Hunting Seasons & Regulations Manual:

It is unlawful to take nongame wildlife *except* fiddler crabs, coyotes, armadillos, groundhogs, beavers, starlings, English sparrows, pigeons, and *venomous snakes*.


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## Greenbush future (Sep 8, 2005)

Huffy said:


> The "Game and Fish agencies" you speak of, and the Georgia Legislature, fulfill their responsibility to keep the populations of venomous snakes in check by designating venomous snakes as an unprotected species. Thus, when I killed snakes that posed a threat I was within the law. (I should point out that your use of the term "hunting" is incorrect. Hunting implies that I was actively pursuing or sneaking out snakes to kill. This was not the case at all. I only dispatched those that entered my living area despite my use of deterrents, such as the spreading of lime, etc).
> 
> I realized that you don't think that anyone should kill a venomous snake. But just because you don't think it's right doesn't make it illegal, or the person that does it unethical.
> 
> ...


"Kill em all" Killing for the sake of killing never went well with me, but I guess your within your legal rights as you have just pointed out, to each his own.


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## Huffy (Jan 19, 2009)

Greenbush future said:


> "Kill em all" Killing for the sake of killing never went well with me, but I guess your within your legal rights as you have just pointed out, to each his own.


It's not "kill them all for the sake of killing." In those areas, the number of venomous snakes is overwhelming. And, they are not shy about entering into areas occupied by humans. Taking measures to protect ones self from venomous snakes in their home, work place, or camping/hunting grounds is no different from calling the Orkin man or another exterminator to rid a home of termites or other insects, setting mouse traps to stop a rodent infestation, using a can of Raid on a wasp nest, swatting a fly, putting up a bug zapper, setting EZ Set traps to keep moles from ruining your yard (which numerous site members partake in, based on the lengthy thread in the Homesteading forum) or other the myriad of other pest control activities that I am sure that you and others do yourselves.


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## JJones (Aug 19, 2013)

If I didn't regret that post before, I sure as heck do now. A couple things, Huffy, since you wish to continue this:

First, at what point did I say that I didn't want anyone to kill venomous snakes? I specifically stated that I was not against legal and ethical hunting. _I've_ _personally_ killed and eaten snakes. The post that you disagreed with was me responding to a poster who wanted to kill ALL Water Moccasins. If exterminating an entire species is sportsman-like, please feel free to state your reasons for thinking so.

Second, after some quick research, I learned that more than one university has recommended to the state of Georgia that bag limits be enacted and enforced on their reptiles and amphibians.(The USFWS has done so, as well.) The only three species of rattlesnakes in Georgia happen to be three of the hardest hit species in the US. In this case, take is legal, but not exactly ethical.

Third, another quick search revealed that there is, in fact, a number of ways to get free snake removal in Georgia. Yet you continue to elevate your risk of being bitten by snakes that, "pose a threat." I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you had the time to draw a weapon or grab a shovel, axe, or other tool without being bitten, you were in no great danger. Period. The only danger you faced was what you created for yourself. In absence of such a hero mentality, a _rational_ person could easily have minimized their risk by having their snake problem handled by professionals. (They would also make your property safer by recommending basic landscaping practices and weather stripping rather than lime, which doesn't work.)

Now, if you wish to continue bashing me for having an informed, rational view of this situation, I would really prefer that you do it on my thread or by PM. This has been entirely too much of a thread-jack as it is. This gentleman wanted to know if his snake was venomous or not. It is not. Now can we please return to the subject of THIS snake and leave Georgia and their venomous snakes out of it?


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Northern water snakes are scary looking snakes for sure but they typically flee from you and are not a danger. I don't like the killing of snakes just because they are snakes. They help control rodents and insects and pretty much dont want us around them. Rattlesnakes have rattles to tell us they are there so they dont have to bite us. They do not want to use thier precious venom on us because we are not "food" and they do not want to lose that weopon. I am in Michigan so its not a big worry but I will leave the south alone because I have been scared a few times in Florida by cottonmouths. I would hope people would learn to live with snakes more than we currently do. There is a time and a place to get rid of snake I realize but the kill them all mentality doesn't sound like an outdoorsman. JMO

Ganzer


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