# Michigan Approves $180k for Pheasants



## Mr. Botek

https://www.woodtv.com/news/michiga...pend-180k-on-pheasants-for-hunting/1682216223

Sent from my SM-G960U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Gamekeeper

They should have thrown it out of the window of their car running down I-69

I wonder who got the big pay off?


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## Chessieman

I think it will be pretty good as long as they buy Michigan raise Pheasants. It will open a LOT of fields for a rare hunt and a few will always escape. With the bids the money will go back to locals and help them out. In my younger days I would hunt those state birds. The smart money might be to late spring release a percentage these as mostly hens. At least try certain fields this way and see the outcome. If it works they could start a go fund me account.


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## Gamekeeper

So, something that has failed in a dozen states and twisted the shooting of pheasants into an “armed free-for-all”, is somehow going to work here?
After already failing twice prior?

Sounds like the ingestion of too many cbd packs.


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## Forest Meister

There are a couple places in the article where it states the legislation requires the DNR to do something. I wonder if the DNR was consulted by the bill sponsors or the governor before they were mandated a responsibility they may or may not have the expertise and/or manpower to carry out successfully? If there is even a snowballs chance of it being a success! FM


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## michiganmaniac

What a crock of BS. This is an insane waste of money and it makes me mad.


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## fishstruction

It’s a bandaid for a lack of habitat problem. Total waste of money. Should of used that money to buy a little bit of property to manage pheasants or enhance the areas they already have.


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## Hunters Edge

What a waist of money and resources. IMO it would have been better to use that money for relocating sharptail grouse to areas in the LP. Especially in areas with appropriate habitat already existing on state land.


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## Shoeman

A drop in the bucket! They’ll spend more in a week looking for bait piles


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## DecoySlayer

It's a total waste of valuable funds. Lack of habitat is the problem and there is little they can do about it.


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## fowl

Totally agree. We will see no measurable impact. Only $180k less that could've been spent more wisely. This is what happens when lawmakers make natural resource management decisions.


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## Gamekeeper

I can’t wait for the primary beneficiaries of this new policy to post their kill pile shots on the Michigan sportsman bbs.


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## Shoeman

Everyone keeps talking about lack of habitat, but some of our Game Areas have some of the gnarliest cover known to man. I mean the average hound can’t get through there....


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## FNC

Shoeman said:


> Everyone keeps talking about lack of habitat, but some of our Game Areas have some of the gnarliest cover known to man. I mean the average hound can’t get through there....


You are correct, however we need ALOT more of the right kinds of habitat. There are alot of state land acres that could benefit from upland habitat management. Many game and non-game species benefit from this not to mention our waterways.
Frank


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## FNC

This is just not right....
I will continue hunting at my favorite preserve to avoid the crowds looking for a freebie.


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## DecoySlayer

Shoeman said:


> Everyone keeps talking about lack of habitat, but some of our Game Areas have some of the gnarliest cover known to man. I mean the average hound can’t get through there....


There is almost no small game cover left in SE Michigan. You can drive past farm after farm around here and most will have less cover than a pool table. We need FAR more cover that can be provided on the few state game areas if we want to see a return of the numbers of rabbits, quail and pheasant that we were once blessed with. It's not going to happen.


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## gundogguy

Gamekeeper said:


> They should have thrown it out of the window of their car running down I-69
> 
> I wonder who got the big pay off?





Gamekeeper said:


> So, something that has failed in a dozen states and twisted the shooting of pheasants into an “armed free-for-all”, is somehow going to work here?
> After already failing twice prior?
> 
> Sounds like the ingestion of too many cbd packs.


The last sentence in the press release was curious. The opinions of hunters will be important. The DNR is also being told to explore *whether the release of pheasants reduces any conflicts between hunters.
*
I was not aware of conflicts between pheasant hunter..Is there conflict out there now. Are these armed conflicts, brawls or just slug fests??

As for the amount of money $180,000.00 is chump change. Sichuan program was just under 8 million.

I think it Einstein that said Repeating the same behavior over and over expecting different outcome is the definition of insanity.


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## Brien maeder

DecoySlayer said:


> There is almost no small game cover left in SE Michigan. You can drive past farm after farm around here and most will have less cover than a pool table. We need FAR more cover that can be provided on the few state game areas if we want to see a return of the numbers of rabbits, quail and pheasant that we were once blessed with. It's not going to happen.


Just drove by 80 acres of land that has been set aside for 10 years I see the new big time dairy farmer in beal city just bought him out no more birds they are plowing it under as I type what a shame


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## DecoySlayer

Brien maeder said:


> Just drove by 80 acres of land that has been set aside for 10 years I see the new big time dairy farmer in beal city just bought him out no more birds they are plowing it under as I type what a shame


Modern farming practices are contrary to wildlife conservation practices. That is just how it is and it's not going to change. What is sad it that we are overproducing every commodity we grow.


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## Lucky Dog

gundogguy said:


> I was not aware of conflicts between pheasant hunter..Is there conflict out there now. Are these armed conflicts, brawls or just slug fests??


When I saw that I wondered if they were not hinting at the conflict ridden days of the original attempt at put and take pheasants.


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## kingfisher 11

Think the DNR is looking for a band-aide to the CWD issue? Do they think deer hunting in MI will get so bad they need something else the hunters like?

I like it, even if its just a release for the fall hunt. Problem is predators, need to knock the hawk and owl numbers down like the old timers did. That's a start and habitat improvements.


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## Uncle Boopoo

DecoySlayer said:


> No, I don't remember. I am sure we did discuss it before, but my old brain just fails sometimes.
> 
> One thing is sure, as much as I liked hunting them, pheasants are not native to Michigan and the use of funds should always focus on native species.


Fair enough but permit waterfowl zones of flooded corn and milo aren’t native either. The part that bugs me the most is one of those permit zones used to be great pheasant, deer, and rabbit habitat just a few years ago. Hunters of all types were able to hunt that area on any given day. Now, the habitat has been removed, corn planted, and the area is intentionally flooded. The only hunters allowed in there now are waterfowl hunters until Dec 15th. Something that once provided diverse public land opportunities is now a flooded cornfield for 1 type of hunting. Makes no sense.


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## DecoySlayer

Predators are not the problem. Prey animals survived well, for centuries, with predators, as long as there was good habitat. It begins, and ends, with proper habitat, and that is not going to happen on a scale large enough to make any difference.


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## DecoySlayer

Uncle Boopoo said:


> Fair enough but permit waterfowl zones of flooded corn and milo aren’t native either. The part that bugs me the most is one of those permit zones used to be great pheasant, deer, and rabbit habitat just a few years ago. Hunters of all types were able to hunt that area on any given day. Now, the habitat has been removed, corn planted, and the area is intentionally flooded. The only hunters allowed in there now are waterfowl hunters until Dec 15th. Something that once provided diverse public land opportunities is now a flooded cornfield for 1 type of hunting. Makes no sense.


Duck season is 60 days, at most. You can still hunt rabbit there until March 31st.

All areas around here were, naturally, wetlands of one form or another. 

Then there is the "money" issue. Waterfowl hunters pay more to hunt than small game hunters. 

I am not saying things are right, they are not, but, there is no real solution. Ground nesting birds, generally speaking, are not going to return to SE Michigan. The greatest loss? Our native quail.


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## Uncle Boopoo

DecoySlayer said:


> Duck season is 60 days, at most. You can still hunt rabbit there until March 31st.
> 
> All areas around here were, naturally, wetlands of one form or another.
> 
> Then there is the "money" issue. Waterfowl hunters pay more to hunt than small game hunters.
> 
> I am not saying things are right, they are not, but, there is no real solution. Ground nesting birds, generally speaking, are not going to return to SE Michigan. The greatest loss? Our native quail.





DecoySlayer said:


> Duck season is 60 days, at most. You can still hunt rabbit there until March 31st.
> 
> All areas around here were, naturally, wetlands of one form or another.
> 
> Then there is the "money" issue. Waterfowl hunters pay more to hunt than small game hunters.
> 
> I am not saying things are right, they are not, but, there is no real solution. Ground nesting birds, generally speaking, are not going to return to SE Michigan. The greatest loss? Our native quail.


You said it yourself, it’s all about the habitat. Kinda hard to hunt rabbits in knee deep water. Deer and pheasant both close Jan 1st. So we get 15 days at best depending on how bad the water/ice is. This year, they didn’t open the valves after regular waterfowl season and eater levels are high right now so dry ground is limited.

Water levels rise and fall naturally in wet lands and nature adjusts for it. Unless you add a bunch of man made walls and valves and flood the crap out of the whole area.

I understand the overall money issue, but if you’re going to destroy deer and small game habitat, then the only money you should get to do so is waterfowl license dollars. That’s my money issue.


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## multibeard

DecoySlayer said:


> Predators are not the problem. Prey animals survived well, for centuries, with predators, as long as there was good habitat. It begins, and ends, with proper habitat, and that is not going to happen on a scale large enough to make any difference.


If predators are not the problem why did the DNR finally admit predation was the reason that the Sichuan pheasant fiasco failed.


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## kisherfisher

gundogguy said:


> The last sentence in the press release was curious. The opinions of hunters will be important. The DNR is also being told to explore *whether the release of pheasants reduces any conflicts between hunters.
> *
> I was not aware of conflicts between pheasant hunter..Is there conflict out there now. Are these armed conflicts, brawls or just slug fests??
> 
> As for the amount of money $180,000.00 is chump change. Sichuan program was just under 8 million.
> 
> I think it Einstein that said Repeating the same behavior over and over expecting different outcome is the definition of insanity.


The first thing that came to mind with the wording of conflict would be Deer Hunting. This is the bread and butter of the hunting license. It has made small game hunting inaccessible on private land, as e every piece of private property has someone, or relative , hunting deer on it. At least that is my experience.Think about the mandatory basic license fee. I believe this was enacted because of the low sales for small game period. Not much of a numbers guy, but before the deer explosion in southern mich, pheasant was king , along with ducks, rabbits , squirrels, ****, etc. Very much a minority now.Just heard this was too take place on State Land. Sounds like a good start, but maybe adjust the season dates. Not like Oct 20 means a lot anymore.I think Kingfisher nailed it ! If CWD reduces the deer hunting numbers (money), what is left ?


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## DecoySlayer

Uncle Boopoo said:


> You said it yourself, it’s all about the habitat. Kinda hard to hunt rabbits in knee deep water. Deer and pheasant both close Jan 1st. So we get 15 days at best depending on how bad the water/ice is. This year, they didn’t open the valves after regular waterfowl season and eater levels are high right now so dry ground is limited.
> 
> Water levels rise and fall naturally in wet lands and nature adjusts for it. Unless you add a bunch of man made walls and valves and flood the crap out of the whole area.
> 
> I understand the overall money issue, but if you’re going to destroy deer and small game habitat, then the only money you should get to do so is waterfowl license dollars. That’s my money issue.



Deer numbers, in Michigan, are still way higher than they were in the day before Man changed things. Deer, in Michigan, do very well in wetlands, since much of Michigan is naturally wetlands. Rabbits did well in our wetlands. 

With more than 99% of SE Michigan's wetlands lost, everything is wrong, and there is no fixing it. The loss of wetlands, of all kinds, is the single greatest loss to the state, and it's wildlife. 

As to the dollars, if you were to follow the money, where it comes from etc, you would see who spends what when it comes to habitat.


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## Chessieman

As DecoySlayer says;
As to the dollars, if you were to follow the money, where it comes from etc, you would see who spends what when it comes to habitat.

I am one of the few of you guys that are habit owners with Pheasants. How much does it cost me every year to plow and work 4 acres a year for the birds is unknown but the TIME is were the factor is. You watch the fuel gage go down on my 100 HP tractor plowing. Sure, I get my spring seed and fertilizer from our local PF in St Clair County, that offsets a lot of expense. I have to keep the ground worked, trying for 4 year cycles. There is the plus side that the deer also thrive feeding in this natural environment. I only shoot one rooster a year that I make the dog work for and take it out at 80 yards as a nice cross shot. You have to reward the dog after a few times in the field. It is nice to hear Roosters cackling most of the year and seeing more year after year. All it takes is one sleet storm that devastated my past Pheasant population and wiped out ALL the Quail. I have seen 16 Quail dead under one tree with their brains eaten out from one Owl. Preditors must be somewhat controlled, but it is nature. 
On the Sharptail, we do have a local population in the lower Black River valley that came from the Ford Estate in the 60's. If you look at the woods in the thumb there is a lot of perfect habitat for them. 20 acres woods with thin undergrowth all over the place, it would be perfect. We would be Pat hunting and the these SG fly up when you would get within 50 yards of them, smart birds. Why does everybody just shake their heads and say it will never be like the old days so the hell with it. Times change and so must we also.


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## Trophy Specialist

The only way it will do any good is if they release the birds a couple days before the pheasant opener every year and allow people to kill both sexes, otherwise it will be a total waste of money and resources. This way at least hunters can kill most of them before predators do. My guess though is that it will cost far more for government to stock pheasants per bird compared to the price private preserves now charge. It all comes down to how may pheasants the state releases for the 180 grand and if they allow them be shot, otherwise a huge waste of money.


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## Josh R

Trophy Specialist said:


> The only way it will do any good is if they release the birds a couple days before the pheasant opener every year and allow people to kill both sexes, otherwise it will be a total waste of money and resources. This way at least hunters can kill most of them before predators do. My guess though is that it will cost far more for government to stock pheasants per bird compared to the price private preserves now charge. It all comes down to how may pheasants the state releases for the 180 grand and if they allow them be shot, otherwise a huge waste of money.


Their original plan, may have changed by now, was to release a number of birds early in the week like a Monday or Tuesday. They mentioned shutting down the SGA for the rest of the week, then doing a draw on the weekend for that area.

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## Josh R

How many people are gonna be mad when they go to hunt certain areas only to find them closed because of a few loud ones can't go out on their own to find pheasants or don't wanna put in the time. A guy wants to go rabbit or deer hunting and can't because it's idle time for the pheasants? 
This idea came right from them, not the DNR. Not one reply when we brought that scenario up to them, they went silent when asked thoughtful questions like they always have

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## DecoySlayer

It's going to take thousands upon thousands of acres of restored habitat, in large chunks to bring back the ground nesters. Most of the land is privately held. There is just no money, or interest, in restoring that habitat.


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## DecoySlayer

Interesting article on the loss of the quail in here. It points out clearly what the primary reasons of the loss of that bird are, and why it likely will never fully recover. I can remember when they were common in SE Michigan. The last time I saw one was in 1975, how sad. If you read this article you will see how the DNR is not the cause of the problem, nor can they fix it. 

_"The Northern Bobwhite is the only species of quail in Michigan. This species has struggled with population growth and in the 1970s saw a dramatic decline in numbers, up to 90 percent in some ranges. Major contributors to population decline include the industrialized farming industry and severe winter conditions.

Industrialized farming ridded the bobwhites of their habitat by turning small family farms into large corporate farms, removing habitat variety. Bobwhites stay within 0.5-1 mile of their natal area and prefer early successional habitats, including active and fallow crop fields, pastures, old fields, native grasslands, hedgerows, brushy fencerows and woodlands with grass and forb ground cover. Since they are non-migratory birds, severe winters have a huge impact on population numbers. Without proper habitat cover, many bobwhites fall victim to freezing temperatures and large snowfalls.

Management of Northern Bobwhites has been implemented in many states. _*In Michigan, private landowners hold 97 percent of the bobwhite’s range."

http://cedarspringspost.com/2012/12/13/michigans-quail-the-northern-bobwhite/*


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## ab5228

DecoySlayer said:


> It's going to take thousands upon thousands of acres of restored habitat, in large chunks to bring back the ground nesters. Most of the land is privately held. There is just no money, or interest, in restoring that habitat.


Right, there is no reason for the farmer to leave ground idle. Can’t blame them, why would they. The pool table habitat is the norm because of this. So does stocking pheasants help solve this problem?
You make it sound like there aren’t any pheasants currently. There are areas with huntable populations.


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## John Singer

Josh R said:


> How many people are gonna be mad when they go to hunt certain areas only to find them closed because of a few loud ones can't go out on their own to find pheasants or don't wanna put in the time. A guy wants to go rabbit or deer hunting and can't because it's idle time for the pheasants?
> This idea came right from them, not the DNR. Not one reply when we brought that scenario up to them, they went silent when asked thoughtful questions like they always have
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


It is another example of legislators micromanaging the DNR/NRC.


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## Josh R

I'm planning on attending the State Convention, I'm curious if this will be brought up at all and to what extent they will talk about it

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## DecoySlayer

ab5228 said:


> Right, there is no reason for the farmer to leave ground idle. Can’t blame them, why would they. The pool table habitat is the norm because of this. So does stocking pheasants help solve this problem?
> You make it sound like there aren’t any pheasants currently. There are areas with huntable populations.


There are tiny pockets of birds. It is nothing like what it was like when I started hunting. It will not ever be like that again, as long as things remain like they are. 

In reality, there is good reason to have ground remain idle. We over produce everything we grow. That is one reason prices are depressed. Another reason is to let ground "rest". It is not good for the soil to work it year in and year out. Today's methods also lead to erosion by both wind and water. We learned that lesson the hard way, back during the dust bowl days. It's hard to understand why we have forgotten that. 

There was once a farm, where I275 crosses, Pennsylvania Road. I could go out there several days a year and shoot a limit of rabbits, and pheasants, and get a shot a a few quail. It was on that farm in 1975, where I saw the last quail wild quail that I have seen in Michigan.


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## Shoeman

A buddy of mine had a covey of quail in Capac


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## DecoySlayer

Shoeman said:


> A buddy of mine had a covey of quail in Capac


It's sad, if you think about it, that a single covey would be such a rare thing, it is not? It's also sad that so many are more concerned about the loss of the pheasant than they are about the loss of the native northern bob white.


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## ab5228

DecoySlayer said:


> There are tiny pockets of birds. It is nothing like what it was like when I started hunting. It will not ever be like that again, as long as things remain like they are.
> 
> In reality, there is good reason to have ground remain idle. We over produce everything we grow. That is one reason prices are depressed. Another reason is to let ground "rest". It is not good for the soil to work it year in and year out. Today's methods also lead to erosion by both wind and water. We learned that lesson the hard way, back during the dust bowl days. It's hard to understand why we have forgotten that.
> 
> There was once a farm, where I275 crosses, Pennsylvania Road. I could go out there several days a year and shoot a limit of rabbits, and pheasants, and get a shot a a few quail. It was on that farm in 1975, where I saw the last quail wild quail that I have seen in Michigan.


I agree with everything here, but does this mean stocking birds to shoot is the answer?


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## Gamekeeper

Josh R said:


> It's kinda sad actually, a few people wanting pheasants given to them because they don't wanna put in the work. The majority don't want it but the few were louder then the majority
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Josh, the birds you think exist are imaginary.
There haven’t been adequate numbers on public land to support the public demand for them in a couple decades.
It’s a math problem not a skill problem.


ab5228 said:


> I agree with everything here, but does this mean stocking birds to shoot is the answer?


 It’s what a small contingent of fantasy land owners/campaign fund contributors , want


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## DecoySlayer

ab5228 said:


> I agree with everything here, but does this mean stocking birds to shoot is the answer?



Nope, I think it is a waste of valuable funds.


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## John Singer

Josh R said:


> Their original plan, may have changed by now, was to release a number of birds early in the week like a Monday or Tuesday. They mentioned shutting down the SGA for the rest of the week, then doing a draw on the weekend for that area.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I think most released birds are dead within a few days of release in wild environments. 

I suspect that many of the release sites will become predator feeding stations.


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## Josh R

John Singer said:


> I think most released birds are dead within a few days of release in wild environments.
> 
> I suspect that many of the release sites will become predator feeding stations.


I agree a 100%
Predator hunters could have a great opportunity if this happens.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## fordman1

Chessieman said:


> As DecoySlayer says;
> As to the dollars, if you were to follow the money, where it comes from etc, you would see who spends what when it comes to habitat.
> 
> I am one of the few of you guys that are habit owners with Pheasants. How much does it cost me every year to plow and work 4 acres a year for the birds is unknown but the TIME is were the factor is. You watch the fuel gage go down on my 100 HP tractor plowing. Sure, I get my spring seed and fertilizer from our local PF in St Clair County, that offsets a lot of expense. I have to keep the ground worked, trying for 4 year cycles. There is the plus side that the deer also thrive feeding in this natural environment. I only shoot one rooster a year that I make the dog work for and take it out at 80 yards as a nice cross shot. You have to reward the dog after a few times in the field. It is nice to hear Roosters cackling most of the year and seeing more year after year. All it takes is one sleet storm that devastated my past Pheasant population and wiped out ALL the Quail. I have seen 16 Quail dead under one tree with their brains eaten out from one Owl. Preditors must be somewhat controlled, but it is nature.
> On the Sharptail, we do have a local population in the lower Black River valley that came from the Ford Estate in the 60's. If you look at the woods in the thumb there is a lot of perfect habitat for them. 20 acres woods with thin undergrowth all over the place, it would be perfect. We would be Pat hunting and the these SG fly up when you would get within 50 yards of them, smart birds. Why does everybody just shake their heads and say it will never be like the old days so the hell with it. Times change and so must we also.


80 YD Crosser, HA that made me LAUGH.


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## micooner

Anyone know who the reps are that had this great idea?


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## Josh R

micooner said:


> Anyone know who the reps are that had this great idea?


This is the group that started it
https://www.mphi.info

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## jd4223

Reminds me of the early days when the HAP program was first started. You paid an extra $1 with your hunting license and got a sticker to put on the license. Then you sent away for a list of addresses of farm owners who participated in the program.(Paid by the state to allow hunters to hunt their property).Problem was,the majority of listed farm owners never complied with the rules to allow hunters to hunt the property. Also a lot of the farmers cleared their land leaving nothing but dirt. Unless you were hunting for night crawlers,it was a waste of time. After that fiasco,the state came up with the Put and Take program...


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## micooner

Josh R said:


> This is the group that started it
> https://www.mphi.info
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Thanks. So they are using south Dakota for an example. Just NO comparison. We are not south dakota. We will never have the habitat.


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## FNC

micooner said:


> Thanks. So they are using south Dakota for an example. Just NO comparison. We are not south dakota. We will never have the habitat.


Michigan will never be a destination state for pheasants. We need to work with what we have (or could have). I'll continue to say focus the effort on habitat and additional land acquisition (much like Minnesota) to expand our state game areas, and manage said property. Funding source should be via habitat stamp that goes directly toward this effort. If you don't agree because pheasants aren't native to Michigan, then do it for bobwhite quail. Many game and non-game species would benefit from this. $180 K for state administration of pen birds just makes no sense to me.


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## michgundog

Uncle Boopoo said:


> Meanwhile the SGA near me, which had huntable populations of pheasants for many years, continues to remove pheasant habitat to make way for more waterfowl habitat. Haven’t seen a pheasant there in a couple years now.


I know of an SGA they had some real good cover, always had birds. Last year I went to the spot and it was all brush hogged down and plowed! I’ve also noticed when and why did they stop planting the cheapest and easiest seed of all to plant(sun flowers). I think the biologist need to spend some time talking and walking with various groups of hunters and not for a PBS show... I believe states like SD release pen raised birds. The SGA’s just need to improve the habitat they already have and if it’s working leave it alone. 


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## 6Speed

What a collosal waste of money. I shot two squirrels on New year's day and both of them were so covered in fleas I left them to be scavenged, no way they were going in my vest. Fleas in January??!!! The DNR should be spending our money buying flea collars for the tree rats instead of a Put N Take...global warming is real and the fleas are just gonna get worse!


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## Hunters Edge

6Speed said:


> What a collosal waste of money. I shot two squirrels on New year's day and both of them were so covered in fleas I left them to be scavenged, no way they were going in my vest. Fleas in January??!!! The DNR should be spending our money buying flea collars for the tree rats instead of a Put N Take...global warming is real and the fleas are just gonna get worse!


I agree on waste of money. Also you just wasted good meat. Squirrels and rabbits are known carriers of fleas and ticks among other things. Take a kitchen garbage bag along next time and throw them in it before putting the bag in your vest.


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## 6Speed

Hunters Edge said:


> I agree on waste of money. Also you just wasted good meat. Squirrels and rabbits are known carriers of fleas and ticks among other things. Take a kitchen garbage bag along next time and throw them in it before putting the bag in your vest.


Yea, you're right but I forgot to restock my bag supply.


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## birdhntr

DecoySlayer said:


> Interesting article on the loss of the quail in here. It points out clearly what the primary reasons of the loss of that bird are, and why it likely will never fully recover. I can remember when they were common in SE Michigan. The last time I saw one was in 1975, how sad. If you read this article you will see how the DNR is not the cause of the problem, nor can they fix it.
> 
> _"The Northern Bobwhite is the only species of quail in Michigan. This species has struggled with population growth and in the 1970s saw a dramatic decline in numbers, up to 90 percent in some ranges. Major contributors to population decline include the industrialized farming industry and severe winter conditions.
> 
> Industrialized farming ridded the bobwhites of their habitat by turning small family farms into large corporate farms, removing habitat variety. Bobwhites stay within 0.5-1 mile of their natal area and prefer early successional habitats, including active and fallow crop fields, pastures, old fields, native grasslands, hedgerows, brushy fencerows and woodlands with grass and forb ground cover. Since they are non-migratory birds, severe winters have a huge impact on population numbers. Without proper habitat cover, many bobwhites fall victim to freezing temperatures and large snowfalls.
> 
> Management of Northern Bobwhites has been implemented in many states. _*In Michigan, private landowners hold 97 percent of the bobwhite’s range."
> 
> http://cedarspringspost.com/2012/12/13/michigans-quail-the-northern-bobwhite/*


The parasitic eye worm had a large impact on quail as well.We experienced a small quail boom in the brown city area in the early 90's and then they vanished.We were told it was the parasite.


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## DecoySlayer

birdhntr said:


> The parasitic eye worm had a large impact on quail as well.We experienced a small quail boom in the brown city area in the early 90's and then they vanished.We were told it was the parasite.


There were once so many, when there was good habitat, that they would have recovered.


----------



## John Singer

It may well be a huge waste of money. I too am skeptical but this may be a small part of a resurgence in upland hunting here in Michigan.

Gamekeeper stated that this is a math problem and he is correct. There simply is not accessible and good upland hunting near our largest population centers. 

Here is the Michigan Ringneck Pheasant Status Report for 2018:

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/pheasant_status_mi_2018_633911_7.pdf

Our latest pheasant harvest survey was from 2010-2011. Check it out:
_Pheasants (Phasianus colchicus) are a popular game bird associated with grasslands and agricultural areas primarily in southern Michigan. About 23,351 Michigan hunters pursued pheasants statewide in 2011 (Frawley 2014). Hunters spent an average of 4 to 5 days hunting pheasants in 2011 and harvested over 22,620 pheasant in Michigan in 2011 (Frawley 2014)._

When I read that it says that hunters in Michigan pursued pheasants for 4-5 days and harvested less than 1 bird per hunter, I cannot help but this that is not sustainable.

I cannot fault people for trying to reestablish a pheasant hunting tradition in Michigan. There are many that feel that hunting in this state would benefit from reestablishing such a tradition. 

Check out our neighbor, Wisconsin's pheasant forecast/report. Note that Wisconsin hunters bag an average of 7 pheasants per season.

https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/documents/2018fallforecastuplandgame.pdf

Here is what the above link says about pheasant stocking.
_*Pheasant Stocking* 
Each year, the department stocks approximately 75,000 pheasants on 90 DNRmanaged properties. The pheasant stocking program is in place to supplement hunting opportunities in areas of the state where wild pheasants are not abundant. The state game farm also provides additional hunting opportunities through the Day-Old Chick (DOC) program. In the DOC program, conservation clubs raise pheasant chicks to be released on approved DNR-managed properties or private property open to public hunting. The DOC program currently involves conservation clubs that normally receive about 35,000 rooster chicks annually. To find properties stocked with pheasants, visit dnr.wi.gov and search FFLIGHT. Harvest During the 2017-18 season, an estimated 42,450 hunters pursued pheasants, spending 418,890 days afield and harvesting 301,490 pheasants. Fond du Lac, Kenosha, Jefferson counties harvested the most pheasants. Participation and harvest estimates reflect the pursuit of both wild and stocked pheasants._


----------



## birdhntr

Hunters Edge said:


> I agree on waste of money. Also you just wasted good meat. Squirrels and rabbits are known carriers of fleas and ticks among other things. Take a kitchen garbage bag along next time and throw them in it before putting the bag in your vest.


Rabbits almost always have fleas.We used to stick them in snow and pick them up later.You would see all the fleas around them sprinkled in the snow.


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## DecoySlayer

Most everything has bugs on it if they live outside. I have found some strange things on pheasants. They were some kind of bug, flat, and used to fly at you and try to get in your hair when you cleaned the bird.


----------



## Lamarsh

I hit one of the public areas in the Thumb last weekend, first time ever running my dog on wild pheasants in Michigan. Of the 300+ acres we hunted, we ran into about a dozen other hunters (one group of 6 screaming at each other in another language), and not a single person hunting with a dog--not that there's anything wrong with that, but just makes me wonder what the crowds are going to be like in the game areas after this! Wow! 

You guys think they timed this news just in time for the end of the hunting season, right when they'd know it would give us all something to chew each others' ears off over?


----------



## Chessieman

I think our ex gov use to hunt birds! This was a end of term freebee.


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## DecoySlayer

Chessieman said:


> I think our ex gov use to hunt birds! This was a end of term freebee.



We used to have a governor who hunted pheasant, and that was after losing both legs to a land mine in WWII

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Swainson


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## 6Speed

DecoySlayer said:


> We used to have a governor who hunted pheasant, and that was after losing both legs to a land mine in WWII
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Swainson


A true hero. Weird that Michigan had a Canadian governor. I read the link and had no idea. Maybe Kalifornia will have a Mexican governor one day too?


----------



## birdhntr

Lamarsh said:


> I hit one of the public areas in the Thumb last weekend, first time ever running my dog on wild pheasants in Michigan. Of the 300+ acres we hunted, we ran into about a dozen other hunters (one group of 6 screaming at each other in another language), and not a single person hunting with a dog--not that there's anything wrong with that, but just makes me wonder what the crowds are going to be like in the game areas after this! Wow!
> 
> You guys think they timed this news just in time for the end of the hunting season, right when they'd know it would give us all something to chew each others' ears off over?


I was hoping for the best when you went there.I have taken well over a hundred birds there over the past fifteen years.If you were to go up there in a few weeks they would be in there again.I have trained there in feburary and do well.I only ran into a few up there this year and was even alone a few times.What concerns me is the fact that everytime I've come across people who don't speak english they don't understand the game laws or what is huntable game.I'm concerned that they might shoot hens.Once at holly rec they were hammering the wood ducks but they got nailed and didn't retrieve any from water.Another time they shot everything but a duck at Harsens.Then yet again we ran into a group that was hunting in December and said they were hunting deer,pheasants, and rabbits.They all had shotguns.SMH.This year I have found three crippled hens that couldn't fly at a different location.


----------



## gundogguy

Brien maeder said:


> I don't know about you but I cannot compete with the big farms buying land for 3500 -4500 an acre it's all gonna be corn and beans no habitat goodbye pheasants


My point exactly. With that much invested farmer has to be intense and efficient to cover and get return on Investment. Pheasants are not to going to be high on the farmers priority list. Liability alone keeps many farmers from letting folks on his corporate land.


----------



## DecoySlayer

gundogguy said:


> Liability alone keeps many farmers from letting folks on his corporate land.



Farmers are protected from liability when they are allowing hunters to use their land. There is a law that covers that.


----------



## Lamarsh

It's much cheaper to sweeten foods with normal sugar, yet if you look at most of our sweet foods made in the US they're sweetened with corn syrup, which much more costly, but not since corn has been heavily subsidized with our tax dollars. Not sure what overall would be better for our overall economy and well being (I'm not trying to make a case for lifting agro subsidies), but I'm sure pheasants would have more habitat if our corn and bean industries weren't so heavily subsidized.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Sugar is a subsidized industry as well..


----------



## DecoySlayer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Sugar_Program

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sugar-subsidies-are-anything-but-sweet


----------



## birdhntr

gundogguy said:


> My point exactly. With that much invested farmer has to be intense and efficient to cover and get return on Investment. Pheasants are not to going to be high on the farmers priority list. Liability alone keeps many farmers from letting folks on his corporate land.


Excellent point.Then add the fertilizer industry,seed industry,loans industry,and equipment industry.The amount of money that goes in and out of a farmers wallet is astounding.Farming is all incorporated and they leave just enough money to keep them going.A harvester with attachments can run 600,000 which in most cases requires a loan.Farmers used to claim crop damages were costing them eating money out of there hands.Now they have this to deal with.They need to plant more for the wide distribution of money these days.Higher harvests with lower profits.


----------



## Brien maeder

gundogguy said:


> My point exactly. With that much invested farmer has to be intense and efficient to cover and get return on Investment. Pheasants are not to going to be high on the farmers priority list. Liability alone keeps many farmers from letting folks on his corporate land.


Even if they let you hunt the ground there are no birds they till the ground to the roadside where I'm at but I have seen some ground around the tri city area that have left a nice buffer zone along creek banks hats off to those farmers that see the importance of habitat and soul erosion


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## birdhntr

DecoySlayer said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Sugar_Program
> 
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sugar-subsidies-are-anything-but-sweet


The government's involvement is the reason and cause for habitat loss.Anytime they get involved it gets costly.


----------



## John Singer

DecoySlayer said:


> We used to have a governor who hunted pheasant, and that was after losing both legs to a land mine in WWII
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Swainson


This outgoing governor gets it:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wi...nces-minnesota-pheasant-restoration-plan/amp/


----------



## birdhntr

John Singer said:


> This outgoing governor gets it:
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wi...nces-minnesota-pheasant-restoration-plan/amp/


Interesting read.There is not much clarity in it's statement of a 100 million dollar industry.This is what I see which is an industry for the state through taxes and businesses involving the sales of ammo,gear,dogs,food,and gas but where will the farmer gain income equal to crops I wonder.I would like to see how this pans out over time.


----------



## John Singer

birdhntr said:


> Interesting read.There is not much clarity in it's statement of a 100 million dollar industry.This is what I see which is an industry for the state through taxes and businesses involving the sales of ammo,gear,dogs,food,and gas but where will the farmer gain income equal to crops I wonder.I would like to see how this pans out over time.


That article is several years old. I could not find the date of the article. Dayton is term limited and leaving office now.

I think Minnesota's Walk in Hunting Program came from that initiative.

Dayton also started the MN Governor's Pheasant Hunt in 2011. I plan on attending next fall in Austin, MN. I will be living about 45 miles from there 

https://www.outdoornews.com/2018/10...-find-some-success-austin-selected-2019-host/


----------



## birdhntr

I had recently watched a program in which they were losing sharptail habitat where while they were hunting the land was being cleared.The host hunter was somber to say the least.He understands what was to be which was no more birds.


----------



## FNC

Gamekeeper said:


> So, something that has failed in a dozen states and twisted the shooting of pheasants into an “armed free-for-all”, is somehow going to work here?
> After already failing twice prior?
> 
> Sounds like the ingestion of too many cbd packs.


Not sure how this all works politically, but does the DNR - specifically Upland Biologist Al Stewart - get a say in all of this? It completely flies in the face of habitat focus, not to mention watering down the gene pool of our limited wild bird population by releasing pen birds. I wonder what his take would be on all of this...


----------



## anticipation

FNC said:


> Not sure how this all works politically, but does the DNR - specifically Upland Biologist Al Stewart - get a say in all of this? It completely flies in the face of habitat focus, not to mention watering down the gene pool of our limited wild bird population by releasing pen birds. I wonder what his take would be on all of this...


Funny you mention al Stewart , he was my first phone call a few months ago and he knew nothing about the program.they claim there are working closely with the dnr but so far none of the biologists I've spoke with know anything about it .im waiting on some calls back trying to find out more .


----------



## Josh R

anticipation said:


> Funny you mention al Stewart , he was my first phone call a few months ago and he knew nothing about the program.they claim there are working closely with the dnr but so far none of the biologists I've spoke with know anything about it .im waiting on some calls back trying to find out more .


I believe you when you said that's what he said but I just can't believe they knew nothing, but I could be completely wrong.
To get to a point when the governor approves money for it and the biologists new zero would be strange IMO, them having no opinion or not wanting it and they still approve it I could see tho. 

Again, I believe you when you say they knew nothing tho

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Hunters Edge

John Singer said:


> When I was a kid, the state had bounties on coyotes. Also, old timers spoke of shooting hawks in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. I distinctly remember guys telling stories of trying to keep their dogs from getting injured by wounded hawks.


Not just stories but actual experiences. The redtailed hawk was called the chicken hawk for a reason. All that changed in I believe 1972 with a international treaty. If you look at the time line as pheasants became less and less in Michigan it has a distinct coralation. 

So when the bounty came off coyotes, they had a population explosion and increased range. The same could be said with raptors and also migrating raptors passing through Michigan?

What we did have in SLP was a lot of fox prior to the increase of coyotes. Once the bounty was eliminated they basically took over the range that once was exclusively red and gray fox range.

So the only denominator that is off is the increase of raptors. Ground predators the fox was replaced by the coyote. All predators increased significantly with the decrease in the furring industry.


----------



## multibeard

I can remember shooting hawks when I first started hunting in 1955. When they became protected it started the decline of small game. Then crows became protected most of the year. A farmer where we hunted out side Holland said he saw crows drive pheasants of their nests many times and eat the eggs. Crow also raid the nest of all bird. The coming of coyotes his added to the decline. 

I kill every possum I can as they are just vermin in my opinion destroying, ever ground nest they find. I would rather deal with a few ticks than the loss of so many nests to them.


----------



## John Singer

There are a lot of feral cats too. They should be the unfortunate victims of accidents involving firearms.


----------



## DecoySlayer

John Singer said:


> When I was a kid, the state had bounties on coyotes. Also, old timers spoke of shooting hawks in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. I distinctly remember guys telling stories of trying to keep their dogs from getting injured by wounded hawks.



Back then there was cover.


----------



## Gamekeeper

We should just be allowed to kill anything we want.
That would guarantee a pheasant plague greater than the one in 1948.

I’m sure of it.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Hey, for those who cannot understand nature, Lyme disease had been on earth longer than humans have. Prey and predators do well together, including Man, who is a predator, when there is enough cover for the prey animals to survive. 

If anyone believes that they can balance things better, they are sadly mistaken. If you think you can control Lyme by killing a few what evers, you are sadly mistaken. 

https://today.oregonstate.edu/archi...overy-indicates-lyme-disease-older-human-race


----------



## DecoySlayer

Bacteria have been on earth for about 4 BILLION years. They have likely been around longer than any other "life form". They will outlast Man on this planet, and likely will be around when every other life form is gone. You just ain't gonna beat 'em.


----------



## Liver and Onions

John Singer said:


> When I was a kid, the state had bounties on coyotes. ............
> .


https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/NRC_4104_471574_7.pdf

I don't think we saw any coyotes in our area before 1980. I see the bounty ended in 1975. Anyone remember how much the bounty was and if many were turned in for the bounty ?
Did they enter Michigan in our SW counties ?

L & O


----------



## DecoySlayer

How much does a coyote pelt sell for these days? In case you forget, when I was a kid, we got $.02 for every English sparrow. They, however, are just yet another invasive species, coyotes are native.


----------



## John Singer

Liver and Onions said:


> https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/NRC_4104_471574_7.pdf
> 
> I don't think we saw any coyotes in our area before 1980. I see the bounty ended in 1975. Anyone remember how much the bounty was and if many were turned in for the bounty ?
> Did they enter Michigan in our SW counties ?
> 
> L & O


The bounties were spelled out in the game digests. I recall they were about $25 for a male and $35 for a female.

I had a coyote in my scope this year on opening day of deer season. I did not pull the trigger because of some brush and the thought of "What the h3ll will I do with it?"

I think I would have taken the shot for a bounty.


----------



## Hunters Edge

Liver and Onions said:


> https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/NRC_4104_471574_7.pdf
> 
> I don't think we saw any coyotes in our area before 1980. I see the bounty ended in 1975. Anyone remember how much the bounty was and if many were turned in for the bounty ?
> Did they enter Michigan in our SW counties ?
> 
> L & O


It was a $25. Also do not know if true but was paid for pup's as well, was the reason given to it being elliminated. 

Now there is many deer not recovered because when found later that night or the next day it is not worth tagging. What a waste. Especially in the spring on fawns. Another MIDNR brainstorm let's not forget the increase of wolves in the UP.


----------



## Liver and Onions

DecoySlayer said:


> How much does a coyote pelt sell for these days? In case you forget, when I was a kid, we got $.02 for every English sparrow. They, however, are just yet another invasive species, coyotes are native.


Native to Michigan or native to the US ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#/media/File:Coyote_expansion_by_decade.jpg

L & O


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## DecoySlayer

Native, since they moved in, and hybritized, on their own. They are not plants by man.
No different than the pelicans that are now nesting around here.


----------



## Hunters Edge

Gamekeeper said:


> We should just be allowed to kill anything we want.
> That would guarantee a pheasant plague greater than the one in 1948.
> 
> I’m sure of it.


What you are describing is the exact opposite of not managing wildlife. Every species should be managed within a healthy population for it's species as well as not being detrimental to other species. A chain reaction, domino theory, or for every action is an equal reaction, all comes to mind.

An explosion of one species causes a dramatic decrease in others.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Ask England what happened with rabbits when too many foxes were killed. Ask Australia what happened with rabbits there. 

Don't like predators? Let's get rid of pike, muskie, perch, walleye. They are just the wolves and coyotes of the lakes.


----------



## Gamekeeper

DecoySlayer said:


> Ask England what happened with rabbits when too many foxes were killed. Ask Australia what happened with rabbits there.
> 
> Don't like predators? Let's get rid of pike, muskie, perch, walleye. They are just the wolves and coyotes of the lakes.


No. No. No. 
We want pheasants. Those other creatures are eliminating the phez we wants.
It’s all their fault it is.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Gamekeeper said:


> No. No. No.
> We want pheasants. Those other creatures are eliminating the phez we wants.
> It’s all their fault it is.


SURE it is! LOL!


----------



## michiganmaniac

I think 


DecoySlayer said:


> Ask England what happened with rabbits when too many foxes were killed. Ask Australia what happened with rabbits there.
> 
> Don't like predators? Let's get rid of pike, muskie, perch, walleye. They are just the wolves and coyotes of the lakes.


You are comparing apples to oranges in terms of fish and wildlife.

In this conversation we are referring to desirable species and non-desireables. If we want what is best for all animals to coexist in a natural balance, then we should prohibit access to all public lands so they can be "preserved". Otherwise we are interfering. 

But since we ARE a part of nature and we manage limited resources to yield greatest benefit I think we can say that not all species are equal. If we know that one species that is less desirable (coyote, opossum) is impacting a more desirable species (grouse, pheasant), and we can get rid of some of the undesirable species, why wouldn't we? 

Generally speaking, hunting is removing surplus animals from the population that would die anyways so that a sustainable number is around to propagate the following spring. So if you reduce predation, there is more surplus. I will gladly help take care of any grouse swarms that may follow and look increased bag limits to 20 animals per day...lol.

I dont think England or Australia are good comparisons because hunting is much more highly regulated and not accessible to the every day person. If there were swarms of rabbits around you can bet people would be out there taking care of them.


----------



## DecoySlayer

michiganmaniac said:


> If we know that one species that is less desirable (coyote, opossum) is impacting a more desirable species (grouse, pheasant), and we can get rid of some of the undesirable species, why wouldn't we?


Because we will always mess up things more than we fix it. 

ALL prey animals in the US, that are declining, or have gone away, are in that position primarily do to loss of habitat. 

Pheasant don't belong here in the first place. No real loss. The loss of the native quail is a far greater sin committed by Man.


----------



## Hunters Edge

DecoySlayer said:


> Ask England what happened with rabbits when too many foxes were killed. Ask Australia what happened with rabbits there.
> 
> Don't like predators? Let's get rid of pike, muskie, perch, walleye. They are just the wolves and coyotes of the lakes.


No one said get rid of them but yourself. Even in your post with mentioning pike muskie, perch, walleye all have seasons and limits therefore are managed.

With the treaty I posted went from one extreme with no closed season or indiscriminately killing to no killing both scenario's are wrong and inconsistent for both are not managing wildlife.


----------



## Gamekeeper

birdhntr said:


> Agreed the numbers need to be able to succeed the losses.A bad winter and heavy predation with lack of habitat is even worse.North Dakota lost over half their game bird population from one winter and lost over half of their crp acreage just before that.They however manage predators pretty well and don't have as big of an aviation predator problem as we do here and the numbers ate still struggling to rebound.


What makes you think any of that is true?
I have seen videos of banks of avian predators working flocks of pheasants in ND on Upland Journal.


----------



## Gamekeeper

Tagz said:


> Partially incorrect. Chickenhawk was not specific to Red-tailed Hawks. It was any bird of prey around an area with chickens in it. Usually they are hunting rodents in the area as that is what makes up the majority of a Red-tailed Hawks diet.
> 
> I encourage anyone who thinks Red-Tailed hawks for being the reason of decline of pheasants, or small game to go hunting with me or another falconer with a Red-tail. First off if hawks populations are so out of control as some say how come its not declining with their diet also declining? When I hunt my bird, falconry is all about weight management. I have to bring my birds weight down after trapping it to get it to respond to me. And also if its weight is high it will generally refuse to chase rabbits, or squirrels when we are out hunting. They are perfectly fine in the wild sitting and waiting for a vole, or mouse to scurry beneath them. If you ever seen up close a hawk on a rabbit or squirrel you would understand its not an easy meal for them. They know risk vs. reward. In the 14 years I have hunted with a Red-tailed hawk it has gone after pheasants less than 10 times. But has never managed to keep one down. Does it happen...yes. And when a falconer gets one they share that on social media because its a rare thing.


Don’t spoil ignorant parochial suppositions with honest and accurate facts and experience.
Spoils all the fun.


----------



## Mark4486

At the doctors and haven’t watched this thread. Read the entire thing while waiting and man this is putting a cloud over my head. I hope this habitat thing gets worked out I couldn’t imagine hunting in general going away. Didn’t know we had quail at one point... but now their gone. Pheasant numbers aren’t what they used to be. Grouse are moving further and further north. And the deer are sick now to. If this is a sign of the times it’s sad. I haven’t been involved nearly as long as most of you but from what I hear it seams like a wave of loss of habitat which in turn loss of game. Simple problem, complicated solution.


----------



## Mark4486

Maybe our money should just go strictly to purchasing land and managing it.


----------



## GreyGhostII

Gentlemen, very interesting discussion and I have to offer a few more comments. Growing up in the Thumb and chasing pheasants for more than 40 years there are so many factors at play, but loss of habitat is #1. Conservation/habitat can't compete with bit AG especially in the Thumb. We can't blame farmers for wanting to make money but the reality is most have suffered through low crop prices for years until corn went over $8 dollars and every piece of vacant ground was put back into production. Combine this with crop insurance now, that is tax payer subsidized, and large farming operations, farming is very low risk today. There's a price to pay for a stable food supply and unfortunately some wildlife suffers. One thought is to require some conservation areas on each farm that receives any taxpayer assisted crop insurance/programs. Have you noticed that many of the CREP filter strips(especially in Tuscola County) have disappeared, and are now farmed again. I suspect the rental rates and program requirements contributed to this. The new farm bill did authorize more CRP nationally but capped the rental rates at 85% of the area average so why would a landowner/farmer take a 15% reduction before even considering conservation options. Combine habitat loss with an increase in predators, fall plowing/farming practices and development, it's almost an insurmountable uphill climb.


----------



## Hunters Edge

Gamekeeper said:


> Don’t spoil ignorant parochial suppositions with honest and accurate facts and experience.
> Spoils all the fun.


The only ones ignorant are those who do not realize wildlife management practices by manipulizing population control for the benefit of that species and other species it directly or indirectly affects.


----------



## Hunters Edge

birdhntr said:


> Buddy had a hen taken in flight last year.- 10 to 12 eggs.He was bummed.He flushed it.Another friend had a farm in north Rochester area and watched as they took one by one until he had only one rooster left.He told me he decided to get it before the hawk did.Dog made point and he walked in to find the kill sight of his last bird on his land.


I believe it, yet those that have blinders on or just do not spend enough time outdoors may not.


----------



## Hunters Edge

Gamekeeper said:


> What makes you think any of that is true?
> I have seen videos of banks of avian predators working flocks of pheasants in ND on Upland Journal.


He did not post that they had no avian predators or raptors.



birdhntr said:


> They however manage predators pretty well and don't have as big of an aviation predator problem as we do here and the numbers ate still struggling to rebound.


"and don't have as big of an aviation predator problem as we do here "

There is always exception to a rule or isolated differences within a state or county for that matter. The reason they have less avian predators is the abundant of trees we have in Michigan for nesting and migration routes. Yes they have telephone poles but again we have many more of them as well for perches.

Of course those are not facts but observations on the amount of trees and telephone poles?


----------



## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> A rabbit is a large meal for a Red-tailed hawk. When I catch rabbits with my bird and let him feed up in the field his crop is stuffed quickly as they are vulnerable on the ground. They then leave the area as they literally can not fit anymore. Usually they leave a nice pile behind, including the guts. They are not killing for sports, they just cant fit everything.


Your experience is with a trained raptor not a wild raptor. That being said if it kills and takes one bite and leaves the rest is not the bird or rabbit just as dead?


----------



## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> Partially incorrect. Chickenhawk was not specific to Red-tailed Hawks. It was any bird of prey around an area with chickens in it. Usually they are hunting rodents in the area as that is what makes up the majority of a Red-tailed Hawks diet.
> 
> I encourage anyone who thinks Red-Tailed hawks for being the reason of decline of pheasants, or small game to go hunting with me or another falconer with a Red-tail. First off if hawks populations are so out of control as some say how come its not declining with their diet also declining? When I hunt my bird, falconry is all about weight management. I have to bring my birds weight down after trapping it to get it to respond to me. And also if its weight is high it will generally refuse to chase rabbits, or squirrels when we are out hunting. They are perfectly fine in the wild sitting and waiting for a vole, or mouse to scurry beneath them. If you ever seen up close a hawk on a rabbit or squirrel you would understand its not an easy meal for them. They know risk vs. reward. In the 14 years I have hunted with a Red-tailed hawk it has gone after pheasants less than 10 times. But has never managed to keep one down. Does it happen...yes. And when a falconer gets one they share that on social media because its a rare thing.


Do you use falcons to get or kill game 365 days a year? So in reality we are not working with the same Dynamics. Also when you are hunting pheasants they are not sitting in a cut corn field with no cover or in a road getting grit.

In majority of cases once a dog points bird is flushed. The red tailed hawk waits for the bird to land before attempt to kill. So it is in cover 9 times out of 10 and is already alert from being flushed.

Besides red tailed hawk is not the only raptor thus the reason most my posts are not directed to red tail hawk but raptors including owls as well as hawks.

No the red tailed hawk was called the chicken hawk or nicknamed for it.


----------



## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> A rabbit is a large meal for a Red-tailed hawk. When I catch rabbits with my bird and let him feed up in the field his crop is stuffed quickly as they are vulnerable on the ground. They then leave the area as they literally can not fit anymore. Usually they leave a nice pile behind, including the guts. They are not killing for sports, they just cant fit everything.


Question for you. Falconer weighs his bird and feeds appropriately. Does your hawk require more food to maintain his weight in February than he does in August to survive the cold with his increased metabolism?


----------



## Tagz

Hunters Edge said:


> Your experience is with a trained raptor not a wild raptor. That being said if it kills and takes one bite and leaves the rest is not the bird or rabbit just as dead?


No its a wild raptor. Taken from the wild, and returned to the wild. Still doing the same thing he does in the wild, just he knows I am there to help. And I weigh him daily to make sure he is hungry enough to go after the larger things. 

Its not taking one bite. In the wild it takes awhile for that rabbit to die. Usually with half its head ate away its still trying to get away. They eat as much as they can before leaving. If another predator is in the area (hawk, cat, coyote,etc) they will leave sooner. But they are not just swooping around killing a rabbit in seconds and leaving.


----------



## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> No its a wild raptor. Taken from the wild, and returned to the wild. Still doing the same thing he does in the wild, just he knows I am there to help. And I weigh him daily to make sure he is hungry enough to go after the larger things.
> 
> Its not taking one bite. In the wild it takes awhile for that rabbit to die. Usually with half its head ate away its still trying to get away. They eat as much as they can before leaving. If another predator is in the area (hawk, cat, coyote,etc) they will leave sooner. But they are not just swooping around killing a rabbit in seconds and leaving.


The bird I witnessed took just one bite. The talons did the most as it squealed, the bite stopped it. Then the hawk flew back to the perch.


----------



## Tagz

Hunters Edge said:


> The bird I witnessed took just one bite. The talons did the most as it squealed, the bite stopped it. Then the hawk flew back to the perch.


Makes sense. If you were that close it was as I said, another predator that scared it off.


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## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> Makes since. If you were that close it was as I said, another predator that scared it off.


Watch with binoculars. He was perched in front of box blind flew across field to kill it. Then flew back in front of me, no predators. 

Stayed in perch for about 30 to 45 minutes and flew away. After the hunt I walked over to it with flashlight. Could not believe what I seen, so it pushed me out of curiosity to take a look. Once killed could not see because of cut hayfield below line of sight (rabbit not hawk). Thought just maybe rabbit took off, even seeing a hanging piece of meat in his beak with bino's. Not so dead rabbit.


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## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> No its a wild raptor. Taken from the wild, and returned to the wild.


No argument there. The only issue is the lack of a few minor details. It takes time and training so the bird may have come from the wild but is trained first before using it to hunt. Thus at that time it is not wild in my perception or opinion. Of course once returned to the wild it will have to become or revert to the wild to survive. His meals will no longer be provided and he will have to fend for himself. Then again he does not have to come to you either.

Again does the red tailed hawk require more food in cold weather or February in Michigan than in August to maintain his weight?


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## micooner

Tagz said:


> No its a wild raptor. Taken from the wild, and returned to the wild. Still doing the same thing he does in the wild, just he knows I am there to help. And I weigh him daily to make sure he is hungry enough to go after the larger things.
> 
> Its not taking one bite. In the wild it takes awhile for that rabbit to die. Usually with half its head ate away its still trying to get away. They eat as much as they can before leaving. If another predator is in the area (hawk, cat, coyote,etc) they will leave sooner. But they are not just swooping around killing a rabbit in seconds and leaving.





Tagz said:


> No its a wild raptor. Taken from the wild, and returned to the wild. Still doing the same thing he does in the wild, just he knows I am there to help. And I weigh him daily to make sure he is hungry enough to go after the larger things.
> 
> Its not taking one bite. In the wild it takes awhile for that rabbit to die. Usually with half its head ate away its still trying to get away. They eat as much as they can before leaving. If another predator is in the area (hawk, cat, coyote,etc) they will leave sooner. But they are not just swooping around killing a rabbit in seconds and leaving.


I have to disagree. I was a farm manager on 3000 acres in se Michigan. I've watched a pair of redtail hawks work a 100 acre bean field my machines were cutting. They systematically killed 6 rabbits over the course of 2 hours. They would take a bite then leave when the machines got to close.


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## Tagz

Hunters Edge said:


> The bird I witnessed took just one bite. The talons did the most as it squealed, the bite stopped it. Then the hawk flew back to the perch.


Also in 14 years of catching rabbits with a wild hawk. I have never seen one dispatch in 1 bite


Hunters Edge said:


> No argument there. The only issue is the lack of a few minor details. It takes time and training so the bird may have come from the wild but is trained first before using it to hunt. Thus at that time it is not wild in my perception or opinion. Of course once returned to the wild it will have to become or revert to the wild to survive. His meals will no longer be provided and he will have to fend for himself. Then again he does not have to come to you either.
> 
> Again does the red tailed hawk require more food in cold weather or February in Michigan than in August to maintain his weight?


Yes, they burn off more in the cold.

As for the training, from trap to hunt usually 3-6 weeks. But again everything they do in the field when it comes to catching and eating prey is the same as wild. Even down to me approaching him on a rabbit, he doesn't give up his kill to me willingly, I have to trick him.

I'm not saying what you witnessed didn't happen. Just that they are not killing for fun. Not just me saying it but plenty of ornithologist who have studied them far longer than either of us. Falcons have a tomial tooth in their beaks. This is a notch to quickly dispatch the prey with a bite to the vertebrae. Hawks do not have this. They kill with a slow process of squeezing, and eating. After 14 years and the countless rabbits I am the one that dispatches the prey. It's humane for the prey and less risk of the hawk getting injured from a bucking rabbit. A few times when it took me 5 or more minutes to get to the hawk and rabbit due to obstacles the rabbit is still alive when I get there and half the face gone usually. This is the same way it happens with wild or trained birds. The trained bird doesn't just wait for me to kill it, its doing the same process it would in the wild.

All that being said, what you witnessed could have happened. During time while raising young they are known to kill more than needed to carry back to young in different trips. Many times my bird will be looking up in the sky while mantling over prey and I cant see anything. But with a look in binos I can spot another raptor soaring up above. And they will be reluctant to eat till its clear. But in all the documented cases if you look online the experts all agree, its not just killing for fun. They intend to eat that prey, but something stops them.


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## Tagz

micooner said:


> I have to disagree. I was a farm manager on 3000 acres in se Michigan. I've watched a pair of redtail hawks work a 100 acre bean field my machines were cutting. They systematically killed 6 rabbits over the course of 2 hours. They would take a bite then leave when the machines got to close.


Thats not disagreeing with me, but rather agreeing. Something scares them off. They intend to eat what they catch.

Edit: Except the one bite thing. I get that your disagreeing with me there, missed that first reply. I have honestly never seen that in 14 years of being right there for the kill.


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## Gamekeeper

Pair working a field says migrating or raising a brood to me. Multiple rabbits says fresh crop, supports feeding a brood.
My guess is targets of opportunity when food demand and availability was high.
Natural occurrence.

I live on an acreage and support how nature makes things work.

Ive driven rth’s And gho’s off kills commonly at my home.

Birds hunting pheasants on the prairies is common and normal. 

It’s not predators suppressing the phez pop. And demand for this decreasing resource grows with every boomer retirement, creating a further demand bulge.

Pen rearing and releasing is where MI is headed. There can be no other honest outcome. I just wish the proponents had kept their fingers off my tax dollars to pay for their entertainment.

I don’t have to support or like it.
Has nothing to do with hawks opossums and owls.
It’s a numbers problem.


The land we have can’t generate the kill piles the public wants.


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## birdhntr

Tagz said:


> I am by no means saying that what happens in falconry hunting is what happens in the wild. Not at all. I am saying the data does not suggest that hawks are the reason for decline, that its habitat loss. Also, Osprey are fish eaters. Perhaps you meant another raptor.


Sorry slipped.No need for the mildly denigrating correction.


----------



## birdhntr

Hunters Edge said:


> Not even close. The farmer or hobby farmer relied on those laying hens for eggs and when they quit laying they were old and tough so pressure cooker. They looked at hawks and owls similar to a fox or mink getting into the hen house.
> 
> Not sure when but KFC started the chicken industry before then chickens were not mass produced and was highly prized. Growing up besides chickens usually turkey and a few geese. Cousins did not have them but had plenty of Guenea hens. Most farms had one or the other.


Interesting.I have a friend and his family had egg layers as a small business.When the birds aged out they were put on a train and sold to campbells soup straight from White Lake Michigan.Campbells soup probably still collects old tough egg layers for soups.People used to pickle and can them I was told.


----------



## Tagz

birdhntr said:


> Sorry slipped.No need for the mildly denigrating correction.


Your kidding right or did I miss something? Simply saying osprey eat fish perhaps you meant another raptor upset you? Sorry.


----------



## Hunters Edge

birdhntr said:


> Interesting.I have a friend and his family had egg layers as a small business.When the birds aged out they were put on a train and sold to campbells soup straight from White Lake Michigan.Campbells soup probably still collects old tough egg layers for soups.People used to pickle and can them I was told.


We just killed skinned and froze then used a pressure cooker to tenderize and soup from drippings. Down the road was a egg laying like you described with 3 sheds/barns left by the time I came around. They usually gave us 50 to 75 every year and we gave them some rabbits, geese, turkeys. I kinda think the couple got a little tired of chickens. It was like an assembly line. The two hole burners were in the basement to keep it cooler to work. Used to heat water with wax and to burn pin feathers off before freezing.

Brings back a lot of memories writing about it. Had a heavy piece of wood with two rusted nails on top. It was the chicken gilliteen. That and a hatchet. I still remember as a kid taking the head and offering it to our cat. She clawed me and opened the back of my hand just as clean as razors would have. Educated me real quick how effective their claws are.

Back then they used corn cribs and grainery. Cats were necessary for mice and rats. Anyone remember the milkman? Or delivery is more like it.


----------



## Josh R

anticipation said:


> I happy to report I spoke with a biologist involved in this and he assured me they are not releasing any birds on land that has is being managed for wild Pheasant.that was my main concern whit this whole thing .


They shouldn't be releasing any birds in areas that are known for pheasant reproduction regardless if it's managed or not, that's my hope

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## birdhntr

A pheasant stamp would be nice.A grouse stamp,woodcock stamp,and sharptail also. Voluntary.Then you get to decide where your money goes by your own choice.I would buy all four regardless of whether I get a personal gain if it benefits anyone in the upland world.A plus is a plus.


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## DecoySlayer

If you want small game cover, you have to find a way to purchase very large tracts of land, that can be put back into native Michigan grasses. By large I mean several thousand acres, lot of tracts like that, hopefully adjoining tracts. With most of the land in private hands, there is almost nothing the DNR can really do.


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## anticipation

Josh R said:


> They shouldn't be releasing any birds in areas that are known for pheasant reproduction regardless if it's managed or not, that's my hope
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


If you want you can pm the areas your concerned with and I can ask the biologist about them


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## Mark4486

DecoySlayer said:


> If you want small game cover, you have to find a way to purchase very large tracts of land, that can be put back into native Michigan grasses. By large I mean several thousand acres, lot of tracts like that, hopefully adjoining tracts. With most of the land in private hands, there is almost nothing the DNR can really do.


Why is there a need for such big acre tracks?


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## Josh R

Mark4486 said:


> Why is there a need for such big acre tracks?


The bigger the area the better usually for pheasants, that really helps. 
Another really good thing is multiple smaller areas in the general area with some kinda connectivity to them instead of plowed or baron dirt, kinda like filter strips along ditch lines or filter strips along for roads

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Mark4486

Josh R said:


> The bigger the area the better usually for pheasants, that really helps.
> Another really good thing is multiple smaller areas in the general area with some kinda connectivity to them instead of plowed or baron dirt, kinda like filter strips along ditch lines or filter strips along for roads
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Those strips have been really filling my bag for rabbits this year.


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## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> Yes my permit is also an educational permit. I give multiple talks during the year at various events (outdoorama, cranefest, Hawkfest, etc). And also almost everytime I go hunting and come across someone in the field and they are interested and approach me I answer as many questions as I can.
> 
> Agree to disagree, I didnt say silently. /shrug


You should stop spreading BS and should not be an educator, except for or to those wanting guidance or information on falconry. I applaud you for giving your time but adamantly disgusted for your biased information you post and spread.

Pheasant Habitat In Michigan
By Mike Parker, Pheasants Forever Regional Wildlife Biologists

*"OTHER CONSIDERATIONS:*
1. Great horned owls and red-tailed hawks are the primary predators of adult pheasants. Both species are protected by federal law and should not be killed. Fortunately, the impact of these avian predators can be greatly reduced by proper habitat manipulation. All trees over 15 feet tall serve as potential hunting perches for raptors. Thus tall trees should be removed from fencerows, within wintering areas, and scattered throughout nesting meadows. Furthermore, it is extremely important that winter cover and food plots are not planted near tall trees. Clear-cutting the first 60 feet of a woodlot is a great way to increase the distance from tall trees to cover. The regenerating shrubs in the “cut-back” will produce food and cover for rabbits, quail, and other wildlife. Cut-back borders should not be completed on the north edge of a woodlot because the area will receive insufficient sunlight for sufficient regeneration."

Another point is farming practice when combining corn today leaves stubs. Before it was picked and first combines left stalks and leaves which is needed cover and is missing in today's farming practice.


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## birdhntr

DecoySlayer said:


> If you want small game cover, you have to find a way to purchase very large tracts of land, that can be put back into native Michigan grasses. By large I mean several thousand acres, lot of tracts like that, hopefully adjoining tracts. With most of the land in private hands, there is almost nothing the DNR can really do.


I have hunted a 320 acre field for fifteen years and taken over a hundred pheasants off it.it is public and many others hunt it and do quite well including a few that do real well that I talked to.Produuces lots of rabbits and good deer hunting as well.


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## Tagz

Hunters Edge said:


> Pheasant Habitat In Michigan
> By Mike Parker, Pheasants Forever Regional Wildlife Biologists
> 
> *"OTHER CONSIDERATIONS:*
> *Fortunately, the impact of these avian predators can be greatly reduced by proper habitat manipulation.*


Im so glad you found that article from a Wildlife Biologist stating what I and most others here have been trying to say. Habitat. I just read through all my posts in this topic and I dont see anywhere I spread BS. I never once said Hawks are not predators of pheasants, I constantly said they do take them. But I did state they are not the reason for decline. Also from the same Biologists in that same article he clearly states "*The limiting factor for pheasants in Michigan is a lack of undisturbed nesting cover. Secondary concerns are quality winter cover with an adjacent food source."* -Translation HABITAT. Glad you found that artice, Ill add it to my educational material


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## fordman1

birdhntr said:


> A pheasant stamp would be nice.A grouse stamp,woodcock stamp,and sharptail also. Voluntary.Then you get to decide where your money goes by your own choice.I would buy all four regardless of whether I get a personal gain if it benefits anyone in the upland world.A plus is a plus.


 Personally I don't want to be stamped to death by a dnr that would probably squander the money.


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## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> Im so glad you found that article from a Wildlife Biologist stating what I and most others here have been trying to say. Habitat. I just read through all my posts in this topic and I dont see anywhere I spread BS. I never once said Hawks are not predators of pheasants, I constantly said they do take them. But I did state they are not the reason for decline. Also from the same Biologists in that same article he clearly states "*The limiting factor for pheasants in Michigan is a lack of undisturbed nesting cover. Secondary concerns are quality winter cover with an adjacent food source."* -Translation HABITAT. Glad you found that artice, Ill add it to my educational material


I believe you missed this in the quote


Hunters Edge said:


> Great horned owls and red-tailed hawks are the primary predators of adult pheasants.


Or denied it by continually posting misinformation to the contrary.


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## Tagz

Hunters Edge said:


> I believe you missed this in the quote
> 
> 
> Or denied it by continually posting misinformation to the contrary.


Nope not at all. Just because something is a predator of something, primary or not is not the reason for decline. Say for example humans. The primary other living being that kills humans is other humans. Does that mean the odds of your life ending due to another human being high, no not at all. So many other things will kill us, disease, etc. Something being a predator is not the reason for its decline. And as i said time and time again I never claimed hawks dont kill pheasants. Just that the hawks diet is over 80% rodents, at any stage in its life.

You claim I ignore part of the article, yet that article specifically states that habitat is the issue and you choose to ignore that time and time again.


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## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> Nope not at all. Just because something is a predator of something, primary or not is not the reason for decline. Say for example humans. The primary other living being that kills humans is other humans. Does that mean the odds of your life ending due to another human being high, no not at all. So many other things will kill us, disease, etc. Something being a predator is not the reason for its decline. And as i said time and time again I never claimed hawks dont kill pheasants. Just that the hawks diet is over 80% rodents, at any stage in its life.
> 
> You claim I ignore part of the article, yet that article specifically states that habitat is the issue and you choose to ignore that time and time again.


It is when the predation or predators are high or their population completely disproportionate. Not even considering during migration with an influx of raptors.


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## DecoySlayer

When prey levels drop to a point where there is no food for the predators, the numbers of predators will drop off. It always has, it always will.


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## Tagz

Hunters Edge said:


> It is when the predation or predators are high or their population completely disproportionate. Not even considering during migration with an influx of raptors.


I think your misunderstanding words. If something is a primary predator of something, that does not mean its the primary cause of mortality of something. Not related at all. All living things have predators (other than apex predators). It doesnt mean that then they are the highest cause of mortality for them. 

Next time you quote an article try and make sure its one that doesn't state exactly what I and others have been trying to tell you. Make this challenging at least, being able to reference your own material back to you is starting to not be fun anymore.


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## Hunters Edge

Tagz said:


> I think your misunderstanding words. If something is a primary predator of something, that does not mean its the primary cause of mortality of something. Not related at all. All living things have predators (other than apex predators). It doesnt mean that then they are the highest cause of mortality for them.
> 
> Next time you quote an article try and make sure its one that doesn't state exactly what I and others have been trying to tell you. Make this challenging at least, being able to reference your own material back to you is starting to not be fun anymore.


It maybe because your blowing smoke and finally having a conscience.


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## DirtySteve

Hunters Edge said:


> It is when the predation or predators are high or their population completely disproportionate. Not even considering during migration with an influx of raptors.


I think you have it all wrong. I also think you are taking the biologist too literal. The point of that artical was to talk about proper habitat and its construction not discuss what is the biggest killer of pheasants. You are making your argument based on an arbitrary comment in an article about proper habitat.

If Raptors primarily feed on pheasants why do we have so many Raptors when we have so few pheasants? If Raptors weren't eating rodents and other prey how could we have a population explosion when pheasants are at an all time low?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Tomfive5

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no legal way to control avian predators, so the only way to improve pheasant populations is via habitat.
Am I missing something ?


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## DirtySteve

When I read the viewpoints of tagz and hunters edge I think the truth is somewhere in between their opinions. I would bet that tagz opinnion that Raptors catching full grown pheasants is probably accurate. An uncommon occurrence but happens from time to time. He is out there hunting with his birds during season when pheasants are fully grown. 

I would also bet Raptors get a fair share of young pheasants the first month of their lives. Like most animals many of the young just dont make it. That could the meaning behind the biologist comments and reinforces why cover is important in the habitat.

Seems plausible to me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## DecoySlayer

Tomfive5 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no legal way to control avian predators, so the only way to improve pheasant populations is via habitat.
> Am I missing something ?


Nope, you are spot on. The same can be said for most every species that is declining in North America


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## Chessieman

Just a little interesting history as to how the farmers protected their Chickens. Put a tall post near the Chicken yard and put a leg hold spring trap on top, fastened to the pole. 24 hour guardian!


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## birdhntr

fordman1 said:


> Personally I don't want to be stamped to death by a dnr that would probably squander the money.


Voluntary I said.I would pay to benefit others regardless of myself. Programs like this has done a lot for Minnesota and the habitat / wildlife.I do find it odd that the average hunter spends 4400$ a year towards hunting as wildlife slowly fades away but is upset about a small portion of money to produce opportunity and game for you to spend that 4400 to enjoy what you desire.I remember when seeing a Turkey, some Canadian geese,and wooducks was special.now it's common place due to management, regulations. and habitat.Holly and lapeer built duck marshes on state land to benefit wood ducks and they produce a ton compared to the early 80's when they made the floodings which was the beginning and I am amazed how many I see there now compared to then..

Pheasants forever and the state planted fields that are so thick and tall to limit avian predation.It is almost impassable for even a hunter and dog.


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## Hunters Edge

DirtySteve said:


> I think you have it all wrong. I also think you are taking the biologist too literal. The point of that artical was to talk about proper habitat and its construction not discuss what is the biggest killer of pheasants. You are making your argument based on an arbitrary comment in an article about proper habitat.
> 
> If Raptors primarily feed on pheasants why do we have so many Raptors when we have so few pheasants? If Raptors weren't eating rodents and other prey how could we have a population explosion when pheasants are at an all time low?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


You can think what you want, but comprehension of what he wrote differs from your opinion. In the article it is about habitat and yes other raptors are not mentioned. Also even though fox, coyote, bobcat kill adult pheasants along with feral cats and dogs running loose. The reasons these were not mentioned or not in the article even though we know they kill adult pheasants they do not come close to those species he listed.



Hunters Edge said:


> Great horned owls and red-tailed hawks are the primary predators of adult pheasants.


To make it any plainer he describes in detail in habitat what needs or should be to be done to reduce this threat from horned owl and red-tailed hawks.


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## Hunters Edge

Tomfive5 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no legal way to control avian predators, so the only way to improve pheasant populations is via habitat.
> Am I missing something ?


That is correct but habitat improvement has been going on for decades, if not longer. Just habitat improvement has not worked and will not until the real issues are
corrected. It's like having four flat tires and only changing one with a spare tire.



Hunters Edge said:


> Both species are protected by federal law and should not be killed.


Yes at present and since 1972 all we have to work with is habitat. That's one of the reason why we do not have pheasants like we did in the 60's.

Another reason is farming practices has changed.



Hunters Edge said:


> Another point is farming practice when combining corn today leaves stubs. Before it was picked and first combines left stalks and leaves which is needed cover and is missing in today's farming practice.


----------



## Tagz

DirtySteve said:


> When I read the viewpoints of tagz and hunters edge I think the truth is somewhere in between their opinions. I would bet that tagz opinnion that Raptors catching full grown pheasants is probably accurate. An uncommon occurrence but happens from time to time. He is out there hunting with his birds during season when pheasants are fully grown.
> 
> I would also bet Raptors get a fair share of young pheasants the first month of their lives. Like most animals many of the young just dont make it. That could the meaning behind the biologist comments and reinforces why cover is important in the habitat.
> 
> Seems plausible to me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I am absolutely not saying Hawks don't kill pheasants, or they are not predators of pheasants. Regardless of wild or in falconry it happens. I don't even disagree with the reference to the biologist that says owls and red tails are primary predators of pheasants. Maybe a little, other studies suggest mammal predators being higher than avians when it comes to predator deaths in pheasants but not splitting hairs. But what I am saying is pretty much every animal has predators, that's nature. That doesn't mean it's a significant factor in something's decline in population. It's not like raptors all of a sudden learned how to kill pheasants. If anything it's something new birds don't know what to do with because they are seeing fewer just like us. Yet their (Hawks) populations have remained steady since the 70's in most the united states and only on a slight rise here in the great lakes regions. Numbers would drop and balance out if it made any significant amount in a Hawks diet.


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## DecoySlayer

Hunters Edge said:


> Just habitat improvement has not worked and will not until the real issu sIt like having four flat tires and only changing one with a spare tire.


There is no way possible to improve the habitat enough for species like quail, rabbits and pheasants to recover. There is not enough state land and those who own private property are not going to do much as long as we do things the way we are doing it. Keep in mind, we grow food in this country to burn it and over produce just about everything we grow.

There is no point in "controlling" predators, you cannot kill enough to make up for the lack of habitat. It's not only the predators, without good winter cover, birds freeze to death. Habitat is the answer, that is known, and there is not going to be any major improvement without major change, and major change is not coming.


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## birdhntr

I will inject this only for thought.There was a man years ago in the hunters creek and west road area that I was told was dismayed as the pheasant numbers were declining even with habitat abound.He trapped furiously they said and it helped a bit.Then they claimed he went after Avians next and the numbers flourished so they claimed.They said he wired pole perches to zap them.It could al be a lie but I do know that the pheasants were thick as fleas there in the 80's.The man that told me this is long gone and was a shady character but claimed one man was the reason for all the birds,we were seeing right there.


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## DecoySlayer

How large an area of habitat? 5K, 10K or more acres?


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## RCA DOGS

That’s it. You guys have convinced me. I’m selling my dogs. There is no hope of pheasant hunting anymore. 

Quit being keyboard warriors and do something. How many belong to Pheasant Forever even? I belong to a Pheasant restoration Initiative Co Op and we have been improving the land around us. There are programs to help out land owners will to manage for small game. There has been some improvements but there is a lot of work todo still 
And as far as the $180k to plant pheasants. I fine with. Government waste a lot more money than that on projects, and if they are going to waste money at least it’s on bird hunting for a change


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## DecoySlayer

RCA DOGS said:


> Quit being keyboard warriors and do something. How many belong to Pheasant Forever even? I belong to a Pheasant restoration Initiative Co Op and we have been improving the land around us. There are programs to help out land owners will to manage for small game. There has been some improvements but there is a lot of work todo still



Like has been said before, without major changes, nothing is going to matter. I do wish more time, and money, was being spent to restore native species, but, I know that will never happen, very few people care about our native species. 

I am not going to join Pheasants Forever. I am already heavily involved with Ducks Unlimited and the Pointe Mouille Waterfowl Festival, working to restore native wetlands and wetland species. I don't have any more time. 

Again without a lot of very large, continuous tracts of land, there will be no real recovery.


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## Alex Andrzejewski

Hunters Edge said:


> Just think what ND would be like if they had the same influx of avian predators? Raptors populations are not managed and their success rate is one out of 3 attempts. Ground predators is one out of ten attempts.
> 
> I witnessed a few years ago a hawk swooped in and killed a rabbit then fly back to it's perch 70 yards away. The next day watched vultures take care of it. If I did not see it I would not have believed it. Similar to stories of wolves and coyotes killing fawns for sport. Or similar to cats killing mice and birds for sport not for food, which I witnessed as well.
> 
> So if you have 5 things influencing population levels, it is inconceivable to think altering just one or two will increase that level.


Are you trying to say that Wolves and Coyotes kill fawns just for sport? Or that raptors and other ground predators are to blame that pheasants are practically gone? This is totally against everything we know about predator/prey dynamics. It costs these animals energy to make their living, and literally spend the vast majority of their time solely in the pursuit of food. Saying non-domesticated animals kill for sport is just misinformation, bordering on idiocy. I've been watching this thread, reading responses, and it is almost frightening to see the information people are putting forth. Birdhuntr and some others have it; habitat habitat habitat. There were more predators, both avian and ground far before man had any impact on upland game population dynamics. Yeah raptors kill pheasants, more than we probably realize; but to say that they should be managed or killed because of that is ludicrous. If a pheasant has no place to live, it simply cannot do so. Once the corn is gone, there goes the cover, and no matter the amount of food available they will die. If you want put and take, go ahead, ill gladly pay my share so you all can do that, it should be fun for you. Ill hunt grouse and woodcock and WILD pheasants here and in the Dakotas. 180k really is not a lot for breeding and implementation; I would just rather see it being used to buy contiguous acreage so wild game can thrive, predator and prey alike. What I don't like to see is individuals spreading total lies about very basic ecology, misinforming the rest of us sportsmen and women.


----------



## Hunters Edge

DecoySlayer said:


> There is no way possible to improve the habitat enough for species like quail, rabbits and pheasants to recover. There is not enough state land and those who own private property are not going to do much as long as we do things the way we are doing it. Keep in mind, we grow food in this country to burn it and over produce just about everything we grow.
> 
> There is no point in "controlling" predators, you cannot kill enough to make up for the lack of habitat. It's not only the predators, without good winter cover, birds freeze to death. Habitat is the answer, that is known, and there is not going to be any major improvement without major change, and major change is not coming.


There is plenty of areas that have great habitat but no birds. It's not just the lack of habitat.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Hunters Edge said:


> There is plenty of areas that have great habitat but no birds. It's not just the lack of habitat.



Think about it. First, answer this questions, how big are those areas and what is around them?


----------



## Alex Andrzejewski

Hunters Edge said:


> There is plenty of areas that have great habitat but no birds. It's not just the lack of habitat.


Birds aren't magic, if you have 200 acres of habitat but not more than a ditch or hedgerow for the surrounding miles they cannot get to that habitat. Habitat fragmentation is one of the main causes of allopatri and oftentimes extinction. They need to be able to have cover near enough, along with food, to be able to get to the habitat, and with 400 acre cornfields left as bare dirt all winter for miles the pheasants cannot leave their little corners of habitat they have left, and populations cannot grow and spread.


----------



## Alex Andrzejewski

DecoySlayer said:


> Think about it. First, answer this questions, how big are those areas and what is around them?


Literally beat me to it as I was typing!


----------



## Hunters Edge

Another issue is it usually takes thousands of years for evolution changes. Unless that part of characteristics genetic make up is eradicated.

Most of the young hunters will no nothing of this because that genetic in Michigan pheasants is pretty much been obliterated. Pheasants majority of time prior to the treaty and the change of how raptors were dealt with actually roosted in trees. Very similar to turkeys today. This was done for protection of ground predators is my reasoning. You may want to ask yourself why you do not see pheasants roosting in trees any more?

Fence lines use to look similar to mourning doves in trees today. Just littered with them in the evenings. Of course much larger than mourning doves but looking at doves in a tree reminds me of what it was like.

Just to be specific kicking mourning doves out of a field and watching them land in treeline. Doves usually roosts in conifers which make them hard to see and is protection from avian predators. The view of them in treeline still brings back memories.


----------



## birdhntr

Hunters Edge said:


> Another issue is it usually takes thousands of years for evolution changes. Unless that part of characteristics genetic make up is eradicated.
> 
> Most of the young hunters will no nothing of this because that genetic in Michigan pheasants is pretty much been obliterated. Pheasants majority of time prior to the treaty and the change of how raptors were dealt with actually roosted in trees. Very similar to turkeys today. This was done for protection of ground predators is my reasoning. You may want to ask yourself why you do not see pheasants roosting in trees any more?
> 
> Fence lines use to look similar to mourning doves in trees today. Just littered with them in the evenings. Of course much larger than mourning doves but looking at doves in a tree reminds me of what it was like.
> 
> Just to be specific kicking mourning doves out of a field and watching them land in treeline. Doves usually roosts in conifers which make them hard to see and is protection from avian predators. The view of them in treeline still brings back memories.


They were roosting in trees in the early 2000's when we were hunting in Regent ND.The farmer once took us to the back corner to hunt.When we got there he said wait here they are still in my uncle's trees.I still remember it like yesterday.Thousands came out from the trees at his uncle's house.This year we put pheasants up out of trees in the thumb.It was sunset and we walked in through the woods line for easier travels.That gave me the idea to hit the flooded patchy grass,dead fall,brush there around 430 next time that was adjacent to the roost to catch them in route.it was maybe ten to fifteen acres.So we did.We were breaking through thin ice and had many points in the most peculiar places. One was a lone deadfall,a lone one foot clump of grass,a tiny briar clump,and the one that surprised me the most was a small tree in the middle of water with a very little grass at the base.The whole area was under water.


----------



## Hunters Edge

birdhntr said:


> They were roosting in trees in the early 2000's when we were hunting in Regent ND.The farmer once took us to the back corner to hunt.When we got there he said wait here they are still in my uncle's trees.I still remember it like yesterday.Thousands came out from the trees at his uncle's house.This year we put pheasants up out of trees in the thumb.It was sunset and we walked in through the woods line for easier travels.That gave me the idea to hit the flooded patchy grass,dead fall,brush there around 430 next time that was adjacent to the roost to catch them in route.it was maybe ten to fifteen acres.So we did.We were breaking through thin ice and had many points in the most peculiar places. One was a lone deadfall,a lone one foot clump of grass,a tiny briar clump,and the one that surprised me the most was a small tree in the middle of water with a very little grass at the base.The whole area was under water.


We would enjoy watching them even in the off season. I wished I took pictures instead of just enjoying the view. At the time it was no big thing/deal a natural daily occurrence in the fall and winter.

In the day it was a daily or a rule not an exception to the rule. Anyway thanks for sharing.

You seen something that many will never see in Michigan especially in the multitudes that was in years gone by.


----------



## birdhntr

Hunters Edge said:


> We would enjoy watching them even in the off season. I wished I took pictures instead of just enjoying the view. At the time it was no big thing/deal a natural daily occurrence in the fall and winter.
> 
> In the day it was a daily or a rule not an exception to the rule. Anyway thanks for sharing.
> 
> You seen something that many will never see in Michigan especially in the multitudes that was in years gone by.


First time in all my years in Michigan


----------



## Tomfive5

So what passed and was signed by the former Gov. actually states that no less than 180k be spent on the program, with a maximum spend of 260k.
I earlier believed that the program was not a done deal, so I went to the source and found the appropriations/spending bill that the money was allocated in. After reading over it, I think this program is a done deal. I think our best bet is to make sure birds are not planted in SGA's that have a wild population. I think someone already mentioned that the DNR wont plant birds in "Pheasant restoration areas", I hope this is true.


----------



## Gamekeeper

That’s good info.

I think we could make a bit of money by selling hunter orange flak jackets outside the gates of those places.


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## DirtySteve

Hunters Edge said:


> I think the reason they were interested in the birds in Detroit is that they are WILD. They will survive and relocation works far better than a 5% survival rate of releasing pen reared birds.
> 
> That's the reason for dumping $180,000 dollars to release is throwing money away. As far as reducing conflicts is way off base because put-n-take era proved an increase of conflicts between hunters in the field. At least from what I witnessed and/or experienced during that timeframe.
> 
> Another advantage is cost. To trap wild birds and relocate them would appear far cheaper than buying birds. Or what they did during put-n-take with loss of ground space, pen inclosures, food, incubators, and manpower/employees to accomplish this.
> 
> Anyway just my opinion/thoughts on why they would be interested in the WILD birds in Detroit.


Where are you going to go to trap 8K pheasants though. I would be shocked to hear them trap 100 somewhere within the state.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## DirtySteve

The treated seed is something I have always wondered about. I hunt a buddies farm for turkeys, deer and geese. They do the no till program so they treat the field several days before planting with a milky looking weed control then plant treated seed. The turkeys and cranes eat tons of treated seed. Every bird we have shot there in the last 7 years had lots of treated seed in them when we clean them. The Turkey and crane population just seems to explode around there. Not sure if pheasants react differently but I have always wondered why it doesnt seem to affect the turkeys there.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Hunters Edge

DirtySteve said:


> Where are you going to go to trap 8K pheasants though. I would be shocked to hear them trap 100 somewhere within the state.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


My or the post was in response to this post by Mi. Chuck



Mi. Chuck said:


> A few years ago the DNR wanted to translocate wild pheasants from "habitat" in Detroit, but it didn't fly, so to speak. Habitat in the city can't be great, nor several thousand acres, however there are enough birds for the DNR to be interested in. Why, I don't know, but there are no farms with treated seed.


and this post by birdhntr which was also a response to Mi.Chuck



birdhntr said:


> Agreed.We know pheasants in Detroit are not exposed to herbicides,pesticides,and neonics.


So my guess is Detroit but you would have to inquire with MIDNR or find the article Mi.Chuck was referring to.

Just wonder where 8000 birds came from? If we are talking about the $180,000 and if everyone including equipment gas, vehicles, trailers, bird pens were all volunteer. $180,000 ÷ 20 a bird = 9000 if average of 5% of released birds is the survival rate would equate to 450 birds. So technically they would only have to trap and relocate 450 birds to achieve the same survival rate. If they trapped 1000 and relocated them it would be over double the amount that would survive by releasing 9000 pen reared birds.

It is a good question though if there are that many birds in Detroit. My guess the actual number far exceeds that and we all would be surprised how many reside in and around the suburbs.

I could be wrong on this but if my memory is correct avian predators avoided cities because of wires was the reason given. The city of Detroit and MIDNR actually relocated nesting pairs of falcons, or relocated them in the city of Detroit successfully. It was done to help combat bulging populations of pigeons and rats, was the reason given. Of course this was before the internet and either The Detroit News or The Detroit Free Press printed the article many years ago.


----------



## Mi. Chuck

Hunters Edge said:


> My or the post was in response to this post by Mi. Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> and this post by birdhntr which was also a response to Mi.Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> So my guess is Detroit but you would have to inquire with MIDNR or find the article Mi.Chuck was referring to.
> 
> Just wonder where 8000 birds came from? If we are talking about the $180,000 and if everyone including equipment gas, vehicles, trailers, bird pens were all volunteer. $180,000 ÷ 20 a bird = 9000 if average of 5% of released birds is the survival rate would equate to 450 birds. So technically they would only have to trap and relocate 450 birds to achieve the same survival rate. If they trapped 1000 and relocated them it would be over double the amount that would survive by releasing 9000 pen reared birds.
> 
> It is a good question though if there are that many birds in Detroit. My guess the actual number far exceeds that and we all would be surprised how many reside in and around the suburbs.
> 
> I could be wrong on this but if my memory is correct avian predators avoided cities because of wires was the reason given. The city of Detroit and MIDNR actually relocated nesting pairs of falcons, or relocated them in the city of Detroit successfully. It was done to help combat bulging populations of pigeons and rats, was the reason given. Of course this was before the internet and either The Detroit News or The Detroit Free Press


----------



## Mi. Chuck

The "Detroit" birds were to be relocated to act as a reintroduction rather than "put and take" birds. I believe the original MPRI was to use the wildest birds possible to jump start the program if the resident birds failed to respond. Well, that was about 7 years ago and habitat criteria has changed and no birds have been released. I'd hate to see wild birds wasted on a "put and take" program. Their genetics and survival capabilities would be too valuable to loose. I'd rather see the funding go into research and possibly reintroduction of quality wild birds that have a chance.


----------



## Hunters Edge

Mi. Chuck said:


> The "Detroit" birds were to be relocated to act as a reintroduction rather than "put and take" birds. I believe the original MPRI was to use the wildest birds possible to jump start the program if the resident birds failed to respond. Well, that was about 7 years ago and habitat criteria has changed and no birds have been released. I'd hate to see wild birds wasted on a "put and take" program. Their genetics and survival capabilities would be too valuable to loose. I'd rather see the funding go into research and possibly reintroduction of quality wild birds that have a chance.


I agree it would be a waiste for them to be used in a put-n-take. So is put-n-take with pen reared birds is a waiste of money. 

That money could be used to relocate/reinstate pheasants from Detroit to other areas in the state. Or trap and relocate sharptail grouse in areas SLP and LP.


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## John Singer

Two things.

First, I know of some SGAs in say the Jackson area where local bird hunters would support a release program. There are likely other areas where the people would support a release program.

Second, I will state again, the best time to trap and transfer birds has got to be in the spring. Release wild stock hens and allow them to breed and raise broods in proper habitat in Michigan.


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## birdhntr

To promote small game?.I have watched to shows on the flush showing what we have here in Michigan(bragging).We are the number one state for woodcock and always in the top 3 for grouse.We are not lacking in an upland experience for are youth.

The evidence is there on TV and the amount of non resident hunters who come here to experience the phenomenal hunting.As I sit here and think to myself what makes a future hunter who appreciates the wildlife to be the future conservationist who will inherit this when we are no longer here and this is what I picture.

On a beautiful day a child starts with a pleasant late morning sleep and arises to great breakfast and not to be rushed.Then with unbuilt expectations (hey let's get the guns and take Dixie for a stroll)and as we load the truck and get ready to roll the child replies(are you not putting Dixie in the kennel) not today we don't have far to go.Then as we drive she caresses her way into the lap and under the chin and the smile is growing as the time passes while we make the turn onto the dirt road.Then in that instant Dixie's demeanor changes as she turns about to the window whimpering excitedly as the child with an even wider smile says what is she doing and I would reply she is excited and knows were are near why don't you roll the window down some for her.Dixie then glides here head out the window lips a flaring,ears flagging,snorting and sneezing.Can you picture the childs chuckling.
At this point now we arrive.we get out and the dog hits the ground and when she hears the bell in my hand she calls herself in trying to slip into it.Of she goes ding a ling,ding a ling,ding a ling,ding,ding,ding,tink,tink,silence!
Oh boy she's on point you better go to her gun up and remember shoot high if you are comfortable as I point to her direction.
Do you see her there and the child replies "yes she's standing here" go to her as I watch from behind admiring the porcelain point and the bird erupts.At this point I see a child with eyes as wide as horses at sight of a sugar cube and not a shot as it soaks in.
Then Dixie rolls right back to search mode as we stroll down the track and the bell stops.Shes on point again the child calls out.Great let's go to her and you let it all play out and most likely a shot won't sound out yet again.Then Dixie picks right back up and we walk both attentively towards the bell as it comes to a slow silence.This time you walk in together and make a flush and call out to shoot and the child cracks one off.Did you get it."No I don't think so"well let's let her search it out before we head home.

My point in this no pressure,short and sweet,no expectations,no disappointment,and no negative experience (this applies to training dogs also)will more likely produce future sportsmen and sportswoman and we have plenty of grouse and woodcock at are disposal to do this and create a pleasurable experience bird hunting.
Children are smart and I feel and will read into the planting of birds and see it for what it truly is and could work against the end goal.They ask a lot of questions and if they were to ask me my we release pheasants to shoot my answer would be because the older generation had great hunting and habitat and miss it and are trying to relive those good memories because that's what humans do when we get old.


----------



## DirtySteve

Hunters Edge said:


> My or the post was in response to this post by Mi. Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> and this post by birdhntr which was also a response to Mi.Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> So my guess is Detroit but you would have to inquire with MIDNR or find the article Mi.Chuck was referring to.
> 
> Just wonder where 8000 birds came from? If we are talking about the $180,000 and if everyone including equipment gas, vehicles, trailers, bird pens were all volunteer. $180,000 ÷ 20 a bird = 9000 if average of 5% of released birds is the survival rate would equate to 450 birds. So technically they would only have to trap and relocate 450 birds to achieve the same survival rate. If they trapped 1000 and relocated them it would be over double the amount that would survive by releasing 9000 pen reared birds.
> 
> It is a good question though if there are that many birds in Detroit. My guess the actual number far exceeds that and we all would be surprised how many reside in and around the suburbs.
> 
> I could be wrong on this but if my memory is correct avian predators avoided cities because of wires was the reason given. The city of Detroit and MIDNR actually relocated nesting pairs of falcons, or relocated them in the city of Detroit successfully. It was done to help combat bulging populations of pigeons and rats, was the reason given. Of course this was before the internet and either The Detroit News or The Detroit Free Press printed the article many years ago.


I used to work at 10 mile and dequinder for 6 years or so. We had lots of hawks and red fox in the area. I was always amazed at how many red tailed hawks were perched on the building. We had a tiny piece of field behind our building and we were a block fron 696.



Edit: the 8k bird number came out of my head. I just remember the last farm I looked at it was about $23 a bird. So I divided 180k by that and rounded off. I have no idea how many birds the dnr is buying......if figure they will get them cheaper and have other tangible costs to the program.. I was taking a swag at a somewhat plausible number. I could be way off I really didnt put much thought into it. 


Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## birdhntr

DirtySteve said:


> The treated seed is something I have always wondered about. I hunt a buddies farm for turkeys, deer and geese. They do the no till program so they treat the field several days before planting with a milky looking weed control then plant treated seed. The turkeys and cranes eat tons of treated seed. Every bird we have shot there in the last 7 years had lots of treated seed in them when we clean them. The Turkey and crane population just seems to explode around there. Not sure if pheasants react differently but I have always wondered why it doesnt seem to affect the turkeys there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Size of the animal possibly which is always a factor in toxins.Also these new pesticides on seeds lay in soil and can come up from the ground in weeds that also kill the insects long after the application,insects die after biting the plants but not immediately.In Europe they studied neonicotinoids and found varying results in a study of pollen but it was not broad enough to explain the large differences in the results.They are considering climate,soil,rainfall,temperature,along with some other factors.They are concerned about coated seeds


----------



## Hunters Edge

DirtySteve said:


> I used to work at 10 mile and dequinder for 6 years or so. We had lots of hawks and red fox in the area. I was always amazed at how many red tailed hawks were perched on the building. We had a tiny piece of field behind our building and we were a block fron 696.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Just a guess it's because of the freeway. Many areas close to freeways are also great woodcock flyways. Not saying that's the reason but I do know bird follow highways and rivers during migration. Also hawks usually are territorial except during migration and winter. Your post 


DirtySteve said:


> I was always amazed at how many red tailed hawks were perched on the building.


 suggests it is during migration and or winter. These are the only times I see them tolerate each other or during the winter if there is food.

On my post saying raptors avoided cities because of wires is what I read many years ago in the article I posted about. Other than that do not know if it is true or not.


----------



## birdhntr

John Singer said:


> Two things.
> 
> First, I know of some SGAs in say the Jackson area where local bird hunters would support a release program. There are likely other areas where the people would support a release program.
> 
> Second, I will state again, the best time to trap and transfer birds has got to be in the spring. Release wild stock hens and allow them to breed and raise broods in proper habitat in Michigan.


My boss has quite a few pheasants in Jackson.The SGA's need habitat improvement more than anything.


----------



## John Singer

birdhntr said:


> My boss has quite a few pheasants in Jackson.The SGA's need habitat improvement more than anything.


I know and do not disagree.

At present, I think that there is more demand for upland hunting there than opportunity.


----------



## DirtySteve

John Singer said:


> I know and do not disagree.
> 
> At present, I think that there is more demand for upland hunting there than opportunity.


This year was the first time since I was a teenager I made an effort to pheasant hunt. We went 3 times to the thumb in december. I was shocked at how many guys were out there doing it. I was also shocked at the numbers of birds we saw. I have been hunting grouse for about 15 yrs on and off.  We hit it hard this year since my dog really improved out of the blue this season. I wouldn't have dreamed about pheasant hunting in this state until I saw some of the posts that you and others were posting throughout the season.

We had a really good time going after them.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## ab5228

DirtySteve said:


> This year was the first time since I was a teenager I made an effort to pheasant hunt. We went 3 times to the thumb in december. I was shocked at how many guys were out there doing it. I was also shocked at the numbers of birds we saw. I have been hunting grouse for about 15 yrs on and off. We hit it hard this year since my dog really improved out of the blue this season. I wouldn't have dreamed about pheasant hunting in this state until I saw some of the posts that you and others were posting throughout the season.
> 
> We had a really good time going after them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


There are definitely a lot more birds than people who don’t hunt anymore think there are.


----------



## DecoySlayer

ab5228 said:


> There are definitely a lot more birds than people who don’t hunt anymore say there are.


That may be true, but I bet there are 90% less than when I was young. There are none around my house and I have farm fields in front of my house, in back of my house, and all around this area.


----------



## ab5228

DecoySlayer said:


> That may be true, but I bet there are 90% less than when I was young. There are none around my house and I have farm fields in front of my house, in back of my house, and all around this area.


I don’t doubt that. We’ve lost habitat to homes and changing farming practices. I’ve just heard a lot of what sounds like “the older I get the more birds there used to be.” I remember a client telling me I must have shot the last pheasant in Michigan a few years ago when I told him I had got one. 

I also understand its hard to see areas you used to hunt turn into homes or bare dirt. 

Subdivisions and bare dirt don’t produce birds. Also let’s not forget 2013-2014 was the worst winter by far for southern Michigan in 30 years. Good habitat I visited in 2017 and 2018 held birds.

Releasing pen birds for public “hunting” goes against my idea of good use of government funds.


----------



## DecoySlayer

ab5228 said:


> I don’t doubt that. We’ve lost habitat to homes and changing farming practices. I’ve just heard a lot of what sounds like “the older I get the more birds there used to be.” I remember a client telling me I must have shot the last pheasant in Michigan a few years ago when I told him I had got one.
> 
> I also understand its hard to see areas you used to hunt turn into homes or bare dirt.
> 
> Subdivisions and bare dirt don’t produce birds. Also let’s not forget 2013-2014 was the worst winter by far for southern Michigan in 30 years. Good habitat I visited in 2017 and 2018 held birds.
> 
> Releasing pen birds for public “hunting” goes against my idea of good use of government funds.



I can tell you, without a doubt, that the last covey of native quail I saw was during the small game season of 1975. 

There is very little habitat left. Almost none for miles around here and I live in the country. If I go up to where I used to hunt, in Wayne county, there is none left. 

Rabbits? There used to be bezillions of them, now, hardly even see any. 

I would have to say, I would be surprised if there has not been a 90% drop in the numbers of pheasants since, say 1962. Same for rabbits and an even greater drop in quail.


----------



## ab5228

DecoySlayer said:


> I can tell you, without a doubt, that the last covey of native quail I saw was during the small game season of 1975.
> 
> There is very little habitat left. Almost none for miles around here and I live in the country. If I go up to where I used to hunt, in Wayne county, there is none left.
> 
> Rabbits? There used to be bezillions of them, now, hardly even see any.
> 
> I would have to say, I would be surprised if there has not been a 90% drop in the numbers of pheasants since, say 1962. Same for rabbits and an even greater drop in quail.


I agree with everything you are saying.


----------



## FNC

DecoySlayer said:


> I can tell you, without a doubt, that the last covey of native quail I saw was during the small game season of 1975.
> 
> There is very little habitat left. Almost none for miles around here and I live in the country. If I go up to where I used to hunt, in Wayne county, there is none left.
> 
> Rabbits? There used to be bezillions of them, now, hardly even see any.
> 
> I would have to say, I would be surprised if there has not been a 90% drop in the numbers of pheasants since, say 1962. Same for rabbits and an even greater drop in quail.


My dad and uncles used to hunt around Milan (Monroe County) back in the 60's - early 70's very successfully. I was fortunate enough to experience a couple of those hunts as a 13-year old. Abundant numbers of pheasants, quail, and rabbits. Really "dirty " (weedy) corn and bean fields back then. Driving around on opening day before 10 AM was remarkable - birds eating and picking gravel practically everywhere we drove. Really miss those days....


----------



## birdhntr

DirtySteve said:


> This year was the first time since I was a teenager I made an effort to pheasant hunt. We went 3 times to the thumb in december. I was shocked at how many guys were out there doing it. I was also shocked at the numbers of birds we saw. I have been hunting grouse for about 15 yrs on and off. We hit it hard this year since my dog really improved out of the blue this season. I wouldn't have dreamed about pheasant hunting in this state until I saw some of the posts that you and others were posting throughout the season.
> 
> We had a really good time going after them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


You are the reason I post my pheasant hunts.I am happy you got out there and enjoyed yourself.


----------



## micooner

FNC said:


> My dad and uncles used to hunt around Milan (Monroe County) back in the 60's - early 70's very successfully. I was fortunate enough to experience a couple of those hunts as a 13-year old. Abundant numbers of pheasants, quail, and rabbits. Really "dirty " (weedy) corn and bean fields back then. Driving around on opening day before 10 AM was remarkable - birds eating and picking gravel practically everywhere we drove. Really miss those days....


The farm i managed was south of milan. The owner would park his Cadillac at the driveway entrance on opening morning. He would charge $2 per person to hunt. He would recycle groups of hunters through the same 60 acre cut cornfield all day long. Lol. Last great pheasant flush was around 1975. While finishing up a 40 acre field we flushed 40 birds. Never did it again.


----------



## FNC

micooner said:


> The farm i managed was south of milan. The owner would park his Cadillac at the driveway entrance on opening morning. He would charge $2 per person to hunt. He would recycle groups of hunters through the same 60 acre cut cornfield all day long. Lol. Last great pheasant flush was around 1975. While finishing up a 40 acre field we flushed 40 birds. Never did it again.


Funny! That's a far cry from what you'd pay as a trespass fee in South Dakota...
After 1973 was when we noticed a huge drop-off in birds where we hunted north of town. I have no idea why so sudden. They never bounced back....
True story, on one hunt there a large covey of quail flushed and my dad bagged (4) in a single shot with his 20 gauge. Very lucky flock-shooting! Great memories!


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## Mi. Chuck

As long as we are telling "good ole days" stories about pheasants I'll keep it short. In the 60's as a kid my buddy and I would wander thru. the marshes of Lake Erie. With hip boots on and pushing cattails in knee deep water we'd flush an abundance of pheasants. While bunny hunting when the marsh froze, it was nothing to see flocks of 25-50 birds rising in unison. The old guys would stand on the dikes in the late afternoon and shoot birds as they left the crops and flew into the marsh to roost. Plenty of birds, cover, fence rows, hunters, and good times for everyone, even going dogless.


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## micooner

I'm just guessing but these "good ole days" memories is what keeps pheasant forever orgs and others dreaming up these boondoggles. Those times have past most of us for michigan.


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## Chessieman

micooner said:


> I'm just guessing but these "good ole days" memories is what keeps pheasant forever orgs and others dreaming up these boondoggles. Those times have past most of us for michigan.


I am sick of this ****! We have habit acreage owners that only try to improve their land for deer. As a PF member, acreage owner and habitat investor I am doing something. Sure, I have Pheasants but I am not greedy and shoot every one I see, they are for the dog to run, nothing else. This is short sighted for 95% of the land owners that enjoy the habitat improvements on their land. Plant a 10 yard wide strip of tall Sorghum while you are planting. A bag will last a few years and only the old deer eat it. I listen to Roosters every time I am out there and enjoy watching the Pheasants and young deer play with each other. You can sit back and talk about the old days, come up with excuses why it is not worth it. Be a legacy at least to your self. By the way, my Patriarch population is increasing also do to the winter feed.


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## Howitzer

Tomfive5 said:


> So what passed and was signed by the former Gov. actually states that no less than 180k be spent on the program, with a maximum spend of 260k.
> I earlier believed that the program was not a done deal, so I went to the source and found the appropriations/spending bill that the money was allocated in. After reading over it, I think this program is a done deal. I think our best bet is to make sure birds are not planted in SGA's that have a wild population. I think someone already mentioned that the DNR won't plant birds in "Pheasant restoration areas", I hope this is true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 362743


It took 325 posts for someone to actually read the proposal and funding, the funding is to purchase pheasant for put and take use to recruit new hunters, the program has been very successful in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Minnesota to name a few. 

This is not a re-stocking program it's a hunting program, so people have birds to hunt in Michigan in areas that do not have an established pheasant population. There was meeting today with PF, MUCC the DNR and interested hunters, I wonder why the people calling the program a boondoggle were not there. Or why they did not bother to read the law or read anything else cite-worthy before spouting off.


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## Gamekeeper

Howitzer said:


> It took 325 posts for someone to actually read the proposal and funding, the funding is to purchase pheasant for put and take use to recruit new hunters, the program has been very successful in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Minnesota to name a few.
> 
> This is not a re-stocking program it's a hunting program, so people have birds to hunt in Michigan in areas that do not have an established pheasant population. There was meeting today with PF, MUCC the DNR and interested hunters, I wonder why the people calling the program a boondoggle were not there. Or why they did not bother to read the law or read anything else cite-worthy before spouting off.


 In keeping with the current administration‘s desire for privatization.

Why shouldn’t the state just generate and give away to all these new hunters, vouchers good to be used at your local game farm?.

Other than as a wealth transfer from people like myself to people like yourself, I can’t see any reason why people can’t just go to a game farm and keep the government Out of that business.


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## ab5228

Howitzer said:


> It took 325 posts for someone to actually read the proposal and funding, the funding is to purchase pheasant for put and take use to recruit new hunters, the program has been very successful in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Minnesota to name a few.
> 
> This is not a re-stocking program it's a hunting program, so people have birds to hunt in Michigan in areas that do not have an established pheasant population. There was meeting today with PF, MUCC the DNR and interested hunters, I wonder why the people calling the program a boondoggle were not there. Or why they did not bother to read the law or read anything else cite-worthy before spouting off.


I don't consider shooting pen raised released birds "hunting." I consider that doing a "shoot." I have no problem with going to a preserve and shooting birds and getting work for the dogs. 

I don't think the State should get into the preserve business and use public hunting ground for it.


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## Gamekeeper

ab5228 said:


> I don't consider shooting pen raised released birds "hunting." I consider that doing a "shoot." I have no problem with going to a preserve and shooting birds and getting work for the dogs.
> 
> I don't think the State should get into the preserve business and use public hunting ground for it.


Yeah, a welfare program for geezers. Give them a place to shoot at each other , er, I mean shoot at pen reared and released pheasants. Because they’re too cheap to go to a game preserve.


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## Howitzer

I'd hate to be the bearer of bad news but South Dakota stocked 400K pheasants last year, last years harvest was 850K, simple math says almost 50% of the "wild" birds you shot were not really wild. The "pens" that people are referring to are acres in size, they are not tiny little coops where the birds can't fly. The best option for anyone that does not think put-and-take is ethical are welcome to not participate which I think is the wrong approach because I think the remaining pheasant hunters in Michigan have a lot to bring to the table for hunter recruitment.

The state is in the opportunity business because the state has the most land available to make 
the program work, much like managed waterfowl areas which happen to be very successful btw.

I sincerely ask any serious hunter to consider this because this is a great opportunity to teach people to hunt, when we bring others into the sport their money will help with the habitat and re-establishment programs. It's too easy to just call something a bad idea without critically researching and thinking about it, the money has been spent so let's try and make it have a positive impact.

https://www.capjournal.com/news/phe...cle_739c77b2-0e36-11e4-9396-001a4bcf887a.html


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## Howitzer

Gamekeeper said:


> Yeah, a welfare program for geezers. Give them a place to shoot at each other , er, I mean shoot at pen reared and released pheasants. Because they’re too cheap to go to a game preserve.


That's the spirit, tease elderly and disabled people or anyone that can't afford a for profit hunt. you're a classy guy!


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## anticipation

Howitzer said:


> It took 325 posts for someone to actually read the proposal and funding, the funding is to purchase pheasant for put and take use to recruit new hunters, the program has been very successful in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Minnesota to name a few.
> 
> This is not a re-stocking program it's a hunting program, so people have birds to hunt in Michigan in areas that do not have an established pheasant population. There was meeting today with PF, MUCC the DNR and interested hunters, I wonder why the people calling the program a boondoggle were not there. Or why they did not bother to read the law or read anything else cite-worthy before spouting off.


It would be nice if they told the general public about the meetings, I would love to go .i think most people know it's a put and take program .many of us wild bird hunters are concerned about the effects on the wild birds .im not sure what you consider a success but I know many people that have gone to the other states you mentioned and all have said it's a joke and would never go back .i see no reason to make everyone in the state pay for lazy hunters who want there birds handed to them .as many have said before that's what preserves are for.not to mention how many times has put and take been a failure in this state before


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## Howitzer

anticipation said:


> It would be nice if they told the general public about the meetings, I would love to go .i think most people know it's a put and take program .many of us wild bird hunters are concerned about the effects on the wild birds .im not sure what you consider a success but I know many people that have gone to the other states you mentioned and all have said it's a joke and would never go back .i see no reason to make everyone in the state pay for lazy hunters who want there birds handed to them .as many have said before that's what preserves are for.not to mention how many times has put and take been a failure in this state before


We can agree that there is a lot of room for improvement in the PR department. At current wholesale bird prices which is right around $10.25 per bird maybe less, the recapture of funds is about 8000 hunters at current license prices which is easily attainable. I don't think pen raised birds in the established cover are much easier to hunt than what is being portrayed here, they require a dog and skill to work the fields the difference is you know birds are in there. 

I am a sportsman like you and have no affiliation with the DNR, PF, MUCC or any others but here is what I have learned from these organizations. 

Here are the facts as they stand today: 
1. The DNR is not raising the birds nor do they have plans in the future, they will be raised by private game bird producers in Michigan.
2. The birds will be released in areas where there is not an established wild pheasant population.
3. Right now the plan is to have a lottery permit system to avoid congestion, like the waterfowl drawing system.
4. The intent of this is exactly as the law is written, Recruit, Retail and Reactivate hunters.


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## Howitzer

birdhntr said:


> Similar to your fallacy with Minnesota and south Dakota.It only takes seconds to see it.One click away.
> Pennsylvania at 3 million. Wow.That would make for a heck of a land acquisition in the thumb.The futurity would be there long after I'm gone.Providing opportunity for all hunting


I am providing the clicks, you can decipher what is in it however you choose. I was calling out the fallacy simply because some people do not offer anything other than an opinion rather than supporting the argument with anything that can be verified one way or the other.


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## birdhntr

DecoySlayer said:


> How were the invasive pheasants established in the first place? Were all wild birds, brought in from Asia and released? They are not native to North America, and did not get here on their own.


When you keep breeding over and over you end up with domesticated birds for breeding I would assume.Breed out of the animal overtime possibly through generations.


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## DecoySlayer

birdhntr said:


> When you keep breeding over and over you end up with domesticated birds for breeding I would assume.Breed out of the animal overtime possibly through generations.


It would not be hard to "start over".


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## birdhntr

Howitzer said:


> I am providing the clicks, you can decipher what is in it however you choose. I was calling out the fallacy simply because some people do not offer anything other than an opinion rather than supporting the argument with anything that can be verified one way or the other.


I provided facts only and didn't spin anything.You did however.
I have stated facts.


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## DirtySteve

Howitzer said:


> Great post and
> 
> Great post and I share the sentiment on the questions you are asking, we simply do not know what Michigan economics are with the pheasant stocking. I am not speaking as an expert but I think that if it is anything like other draw hunts that there are numerous revenue opportunities to recapture the cost of birds and stocking. I love pheasant hunting mainly because I can put on some simple boots and brush pants to run my dog, too me that is enough to substantiate the program. Someone mentioned a coupon program to go to a private reserve to hunt, and I actually think that is a good idea worth looking into. The problems I have with the reserves is that it is difficult to simply take my dog for a run and put some birds up due to scheduling and availability at the reserve. I think the benefit of having public areas that have stocked birds will bring people back into the sport because they simply have the hope of bagging a bird or just getting a flush out of the deal.
> 
> I am copying your post and sending it off to the people that may be able to provide interim answers because your talking points are worthy of further discussion, so again thank you for your input.


With the other draw hunts they went away from charging access fees when the state implemented the base license. 

You could add it to the draw system and charge $5 but I think you would be hard pressed to cover the cost of what it would take to add the draw. If 10k people applied you are bringing in $45k assuming license retailers keep their 50 cents. You would spend that much on advertising the program as well as printing/distribution of draw pamphlets.

I also wonder about how they could control this. Say they make some zones at lapeer state game area for release and have a draw for opening weekend.......are you going to make these areas off limits to deer hunters, rabbit hunters, duck hunters etc...? If so who patrols this and at what cost? If I win a paid for lottery draw and I get an opening day field I want it to myself the way waterfowl units are managed. After all I paid for it. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## birdhntr

DecoySlayer said:


> It would not be hard to "start over".


I think a wild bird relocation study would be interesting and work.The same as wild Turkey. Trap and relocate for seed.


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## Howitzer

FNC said:


> I was at the original meeting in Goodland Township (near Imlay City) back in january 2017. At that meeting, Ken Dalton and his team were proposing this program and when a number of folks in the audience (landowners, PF representatives, hunters like myself) brought up concerns with diverting away from habitat focus, the failure of past put/take programs, etc. they then diverted to "hunter recruitment" angle as being the primary reason for this. This whole program premise is objectionable to many because a) it costs tax money that could be better spent elsewhere and b) it diverts from the time-honored and proven focus on habitat. Very simple. Did you happen to go to the original meeting? What were your perceptions?


My perceptions are much like the people on this board, you have a very vocal and well-funded opposition, and several of them are with the DNR. The noteworthy part is in the macro perspective hunter numbers are falling, and when that happens habitat programs and other activities that benefit sportsman are subject to cuts or being eliminated. I think this should be viewed as an opportunity cost to recruit new license buying hunters if the data from other states that have used this program is correct there should be a windfall into the coffers to pay for other habitat programs. The PF perspective is easy to interpret because they are a "Habitat Organization" which is written on their logo so anything that deviates from that mission is going to be subject to objection by PF, MUCC's perspective is bring on the hunters. 

As a waterfowler, it is difficult to take a curious person that has never hunted out to the pond or marsh, I think (and its just me thinking) that a program like this would enable me to help those people go out and see what hunting is all about. They can observe the dogs working, the invigorating feeling that we get when a bird flushes and maybe get a taste of pheasant at the dinner table. This is why I support the program because I believe it will be a successful tool to get people hunting.


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## Howitzer

birdhntr said:


> I think a wild bird relocation study would be interesting and work.The same as wild Turkey. Trap and relocate for seed.


Hopefully funds generated by this program will help make that possible. And I wholeheartedly agree with you.


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## birdhntr

Howitzer said:


> My perceptions are much like the people on this board, you have a very vocal and well-funded opposition, and several of them are with the DNR. The noteworthy part is in the macro perspective hunter numbers are falling, and when that happens habitat programs and other activities that benefit sportsman are subject to cuts or being eliminated. I think this should be viewed as an opportunity cost to recruit new license buying hunters if the data from other states that have used this program is correct there should be a windfall into the coffers to pay for other habitat programs. The PF perspective is easy to interpret because they are a "Habitat Organization" which is written on their logo so anything that deviates from that mission is going to be subject to objection by PF, MUCC's perspective is bring on the hunters.
> 
> As a waterfowler, it is difficult to take a curious person that has never hunted out to the pond or marsh, I think (and its just me thinking) that a program like this would enable me to help those people go out and see what hunting is all about. They can observe the dogs working, the invigorating feeling that we get when a bird flushes and maybe get a taste of pheasant at the dinner table. This is why I support the program because I believe it will be a successful tool to get people hunting.


Take them grouse and woodcock hunting for a stepping stone


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## DecoySlayer

birdhntr said:


> I think a wild bird relocation study would be interesting and work.The same as wild Turkey. Trap and relocate for seed.


There was, however, good turkey habitat to be found, not so for quail or pheasant any more.


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## Hunters Edge

Howitzer said:


> As a waterfowler, it is difficult to take a curious person that has never hunted out to the pond or marsh, I think (and its just me thinking) that a program like this would enable me to help those people go out and see what hunting is all about. They can observe the dogs working, the invigorating feeling that we get when a bird flushes and maybe get a taste of pheasant at the dinner table.


How does existing pheasant preserves stopped you from doing this in the past?

Even better during the season you can actually release pen reared birds legally by permit. So what stopped you in the past from doing this and bring new hunters involvement? Especially as a group or organization.

Keep in mind PF has used pheasant preserves to get youths and even inner city youths involved by offering and implementing such hunts.


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## Hackman

I started pheasant hunting late season because I have a dog and because nobody was doing it, now my dog getting older I might go back to Dec bowhunting if too many people are out there chasing the birds. It will be interesting what area the releases will be?


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## Howitzer

birdhntr said:


> Take them grouse and woodcock hunting for a stepping stone


I'm with you but I can't duck as fast as I used to, teaching gun handling skills in the grouse habitat is not my cup of tea. 

have a great morning, I am taking a kid and dog out hunting for a very slow target...sheds.


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## DecoySlayer

Howitzer said:


> I'm with you but I can't duck as fast as I used to, teaching gun handling skills in the grouse habitat is not my cup of tea.



They should know their gun handling skills before they enter the grouse habitat to hunt them.


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## Mi. Chuck

So what's Plan B? If the spin is to recruit and reinvigorate hunters to pheasant hunting what's next? I participated in Put and Take years ago and I don't believe many sustained new hunters came out of the program. In my opinion the kids that this program is designed for will tire quickly when they are exposed to the real pheasant hunting world. There are plenty of rabbits to hunt and I don't young hunters out there. It's hard to compete with the electronic entertainment environment. We've had Put and Take before and it didn't work, time to move onto building a wild bird population with science and fact based programs.


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## birdhntr

Howitzer said:


> Hopefully funds generated by this program will help make that possible. And I wholeheartedly agree with you.


We need to study and communicate with Minnesota as it has been very successful.So you are saying you do not want to be like Pennsylvania and expand the release program.


DecoySlayer said:


> They should know their gun handling skills before they enter the grouse habitat to hunt them.


Yup.I would have no problem sending a youth to my dog on point.I would instruct him to go in and that I am going to stay here and inform him were he is allowed to shoot.Only after firearms safety is well versed.


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## Liver and Onions

FNC said:


> I was at the original meeting in Goodland Township (near Imlay City) back in january 2017. At that meeting, Ken Dalton and his team were proposing this program and when a number of folks in the audience (landowners, PF representatives, hunters like myself)
> ................................


I was at that meeting. It was at the golf course clubhouse in Lum. I was surprised at the good turnout. The group I sat with were like most in attendance that day: we wished that we had good pheasant numbers over much of the SLP like in the past, but we did not support the idea of another put-n-take program. What we did support was the DNR, the State and pheasant farms working together to provide maybe 2-3 pheasant vouchers for kids who purchased a license at a participating pheasant farm. Let the pheasant farms place the birds and control the number of hunters in the field.
We felt that small game hunting for squirrels and rabbits is available most anywhere to gets kids into the woods for quality hunting away from a put-n-take hunt.
I was not able to talk with Mr. Dalton that day, however I did call him a few days later and had a lengthy talk. I pitched the idea of pheasant vouchers for kids at pheasant farms. He had heard that pitch several times before and wanted no part of it. His goal was to get a put-n-take program on state land for all hunters, especially adults.
I was quite disappoint in our phone conversation that day.

L & O


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## birdhntr

Liver and Onions said:


> I was at that meeting. It was at the golf course clubhouse in Lum. I was surprised at the good turnout. The group I sat with were like most in attendance that day: we wished that we had good pheasant numbers over much of the SLP like in the past, but we did not support the idea of another put-n-take program. What we did support was the DNR, the State and pheasant farms working together to provide maybe 2-3 pheasant vouchers for kids who purchased a license at a participating pheasant farm. Let the pheasant farms place the birds and control the number of hunters in the field.
> We felt that small game hunting for squirrels and rabbits is available most anywhere to gets kids into the woods for quality hunting away from a put-n-take hunt.
> I was not able to talk with Mr. Dalton that day, however I did call him a few days later and had a lengthy talk. I pitched the idea of pheasant vouchers for kids at pheasant farms. He had heard that pitch several times before and wanted no part of it. His goal was to get a put-n-take program on state land for all hunters, especially adults.
> I was quite disappoint in our phone conversation that day.
> 
> L & O


So are you saying that they are using youth to sway or guilt us for something to benefit them.I believe your conversation stated has relevance and now I am sure this is a put n take program with goals to expand over time.


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## Howitzer

Hunters Edge said:


> How does existing pheasant preserves stopped you from doing this in the past?
> 
> Even better during the season you can actually release pen reared birds legally by permit. So what stopped you in the past from doing this and bring new hunters involvement? Especially as a group or organization.
> 
> Keep in mind PF has used pheasant preserves to get youths and even inner city youths involved by offering and implementing such hunts.


Nothing has stopped me, I have killed easily over 50 released birds this year double that if you include my kids. I pay to play because I have the access and can afford it. I am stepping up for the people who can’t. PF also has used public land for the learn to hunt programs so there is a conflict with the no stocking policy right there.


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## birdhntr

Howitzer said:


> Nothing has stopped me, I have killed easily over 50 released birds this year double that if you include my kids. I pay to play because I have the access and can afford it. I am stepping up for the people who can’t. PF also has used public land for the learn to hunt programs so there is a conflict with the no stocking policy right there.


Waiting to here a reply to L&O.

I would like to sit at a release area and observe the people that take after these birds.
I will assume they will all show up in a run down car, ripped and torn vest,boots, and jeans.They borrowed gas to get there,didn't by any thing at the convenience store,a borrowed dog,cigarettes were free,shells were free and the shotgun has no value "right."Manipulating words and constantly using guilt.will there be a welfare hunting permit to prevent others who can afford hunting to prevent them from taking from the others you claim it is for.

I hunt public land and I would guess half are low income and the rest are mostly household median income folks.That is what's great about public land.Opportunity is equal.And I hunt with them on the same grounds.
Same goes for fishing.
I know it's disheartening but if you can't afford to hunt then you can't afford to go after these birds.They are keeping with their priorities with the money they have.

I ask what would be cheaper.To go to the closest preserve and get two birds or to drive to a release area on the Hope's that you get two birds but may have wasted time and gasoline and come home with less money in your

I picture suburbans,nice guns,good dogs pulling into these areas.

This is becoming more nonsensical by the minute as I read your statements it seems to get worse.

You still haven't recanted on your South Dakota and Minnesota statements which were entirely false.

If you keep anecdotally coming up with another spin and skipping past ones that are arguably fair argument this debate with you is pointless.


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## Hackman

Josh R said:


> Still trying to figure out how they are gonna limit the use of state land open to the public for hunting.....
> Will they have an officer there telling everyone that they can't hunt?
> Put a fence around it and lock it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


thats why the dnr skim 80,000 off. they will make signs for the areas create laws for the area you can hunt and days. the areas will probally be marked speacial release area. then if people like it hit you up few years later for the pheasant stamp. actually it will take away 2 days of hunting if you hunt the upcomimg to be announced areas. if interested i could get the old rules to you guys. the problem wiith old put-take program it was to large. the question you asked in the beginning he will issue you ticket.


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## Josh R

Hackman said:


> thats why the dnr skim 80,000 off. they will make signs for the areas create laws for the area you can hunt and days. the areas will probally be marked speacial release area. then if people like it hit you up few years later for the pheasant stamp. actually it will take away 2 days of hunting if you hunt the upcomimg to be announced areas. if interested i could get the old rules to you guys. the problem wiith old put-take program it was to large. the question you asked in the beginning he will issue you ticket.


This isn't directed directly at you, just in general....
So they'll limit what species can be hunted in a certain area? A deer or rabbit hunter can or cannot go into the release areas to hunt something other then pheasants? That doesn't sit well with me
Again, not directed at you just quoted your post so my ideas are linked to the questions I have

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Hackman

Josh R said:


> This isn't directed directly at you, just in general....
> So they'll limit what species can be hunted in a certain area? A deer or rabbit hunter can or cannot go into the release areas to hunt something other then pheasants? That doesn't sit well with me
> Again, not directed at you just quoted your post so my ideas are linked to the questions I have
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


let me study my old guide today, and ill get back with you, i do know for a fact my buddy got a ticket for hunting on an odd day when his license ended in a even number, legally we could not hunt together up in gladwin because mine ended in odd number. to this day we chuckle over that he chuck his gun 50 yards in the woods he was so mad. i got a few pics maybe i will post later up there. gotta go


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## gundogguy

Hackman"i do know for a fact my buddy got a ticket for hunting on an odd day when his license ended in a even number, legally we could not hunt together up in gladwin because mine ended in odd number. to this day we chuckle over that" Hackman

Back in the day of the old P&T you could purchase two small game licenses ( back tags ) 1 even 1 odd.
During the week hunted dailey did not have to put up with the weekend crowds at Barry or Gourdneck. It was great for training and conditioning. Use to give away a lot of birds to birdless hunters. During the course of the program me dogs flushed and retriever countless Pheasants.
That was the beginning of training classes for new dog owners using those grounds and birds. As it is often said "back in the good ole days".
Remains to be seen how this new scheme will work out.
Hal


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## fordman1

Howitzer said:


> It was discussed during the adopt a game area.


They should have talked about it with everyone not just about 35 people or less. A good time would have been before lunch when Debbie was making her grand entrance or when Mike was on stage. Then you would have had about 140 people to hear the reasoning behind it. Instead they did it at that talk when they are looking for people to put money into those areas, Sneaky.


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## Gamekeeper

This is probably a good time to mention this.
Because it’s banquet season.

If you feel affronted by this financial redirection, then money talks.

The fellow schilling for the people behind this, has already stated his piece.

Here’s mine,
Specifically tell the people trying to sell you banquet tickets this season, that you are opposed to any support of a new put and take program, that you are unhappy with how it is attempting to be sold, you don’t like how the funding was secured, and you are not buying a banquet ticket this year.

Hit these crooks in their pocketbooks.

They earn a commission on every ticket that is sold at these things.
They’ll get the message.

Don’t support the organizations that are pushing this. But be clear, tell them specifically that you are withholding your donation because you object to reestablishing put and take pheasant shooting in Michigan.

If you object to how the funding was secured say that as well.

Some of you will know what “directed giving” is, reconsider your decisions.

I’m not donating portions of my estate to fund p&t. Or any orgs that push for it.


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## Mi. Chuck

I find it ironic that the DNR has $250K to spend on shooting tame pheasants, but not one bird to be released into the improved habitat on the highly touted MPRI areas. Only a litany of criteria, such as 12,000 contiguous habitat acres, before an area qualifies for releases. Yes, we can argue that planted birds don't survive, but they sure as hell have a better chance than this mess. Time the DNR and PF hears from it's supporters.


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## birdhntr

Mi. Chuck said:


> I find it ironic that the DNR has $250K to spend on shooting tame pheasants, but not one bird to be released into the improved habitat on the highly touted MPRI areas. Only a litany of criteria, such as 12,000 contiguous habitat acres, before an area qualifies for releases. Yes, we can argue that planted birds don't survive, but they sure as hell have a better chance than this mess. Time the DNR and PF hears from it's supporters.


You do not want to delute the wild genetics.


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## Gamekeeper

This is a complicated issue, in the respect that it acknowledges failure.

None of the people involved in this, will ever stand in front of a crowd and say we failed. We took your money, we spent your money, we applied it as best we thought(after we were all paid), but we didn’t get the results we hope for, so the project was a failure.

Moving forward, then they will say Everything is beautiful we’re all going to be tall thin and Rich. Just give me more. 

Reality is we can’t generate wild grown pheasants in a quantity that will ever satisfy the people who want to shoot them.
Too many aging boomers with resources, irreversible habitat changes, and steadily increasing costs.
Because the demand side of the equation only has about 10 years remaining, we could probably just delay this for another decade and see the demand for pheasant shooting drop down to what would actually be a sustainable level. Because the people that are primarily pushing for Penn released easy to harvest birds are of an age bracket that will have aged out of the pursuit with in the next 10 years.
And private landowners won’t set a side income producing land in adequate quantities to generate them either. At least not any quantities they would consider sharing with the public.

No one’s ever going to stand on the podium, ask for your money and tell you any of that.

It’s better to sneak personalized agendas through the lame duck session.


----------



## FISHMANMARK

Howitzer said:


> We can agree that there is a lot of room for improvement in the PR department. At current wholesale bird prices which is right around $10.25 per bird maybe less, the recapture of funds is about 8000 hunters at current license prices which is easily attainable. I don't think pen raised birds in the established cover are much easier to hunt than what is being portrayed here, they require a dog and skill to work the fields the difference is you know birds are in there.
> 
> I am a sportsman like you and have no affiliation with the DNR, PF, MUCC or any others but here is what I have learned from these organizations.
> 
> Here are the facts as they stand today:
> 1. The DNR is not raising the birds nor do they have plans in the future, they will be raised by private game bird producers in Michigan.
> 2. The birds will be released in areas where there is not an established wild pheasant population.
> 3. Right now the plan is to have a lottery permit system to avoid congestion, like the waterfowl drawing system.
> 4. The intent of this is exactly as the law is written, Recruit, Retail and Reactivate hunters.



Were you at the state PF convention? I was there and this is exactly how I understand the program will be ran.

edit... If I would have kept reading, it was obvious that you and I were in the same workshop.


----------



## Mi. Chuck

Gamekeeper said:


> This is a complicated issue, in the respect that it acknowledges failure.
> 
> None of the people involved in this, will ever stand in front of a crowd and say we failed. We took your money, we spent your money, we applied it as best we thought(after we were all paid), but we didn’t get the results we hope for, so the project was a failure.
> 
> Moving forward, then they will say Everything is beautiful we’re all going to be tall thin and Rich. Just give me more.
> 
> Reality is we can’t generate wild grown pheasants in a quantity that will ever satisfy the people who want to shoot them.
> Too many aging boomers with resources, irreversible habitat changes, and steadily increasing costs.
> Because the demand side of the equation only has about 10 years remaining, we could probably just delay this for another decade and see the demand for pheasant shooting drop down to what would actually be a sustainable level. Because the people that are primarily pushing for Penn released easy to harvest birds are of an age bracket that will have aged out of the pursuit with in the next 10 years.
> And private landowners won’t set a side income producing land in adequate quantities to generate them either. At least not any quantities they would consider sharing with the public.
> 
> No one’s ever going to stand on the podium, ask for your money and tell you any of that.
> 
> It’s better to sneak personalized agendas through the lame duck session.


----------



## Mi. Chuck

Brother you hit the nail squarely on the head, several times! First off let me clarify that I wanted genetically wild birds. NOT pen reared ones, although in my area with ZERO birds seen in the past 3 years there's not much chance of inferior birds passing their genes onto wild birds. I think the DNR and PF were pretty much blindsided by this last second deal and are scrambling on how to spin it so as not to offend their $$$ base. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the recent push for an additional 40,000 acres of CRP came in at only 17,000 signed up, and sure to be less after all the costs are fully understood. Thus proving habitat will not be able to compete with valuable farmland. Good post. Thx.


----------



## Gamekeeper

In my case, as a recreational land owner and real estate investor,
I have more than 40 years of experience watching pheasants decline IN SPITE of millions of dollars and the concerted efforts of two generations of wildlife professionals.

Starting in 1979 when I worked at the DNR, through multiple state governments, agency restructuring’s, multiple economic recession’s and expansions, tax increases, license fee restructurings, I have started to get the impression that public land pheasants are a lost cause and that people should man up and admit it.
Took me 40 years to get there.

They should be seen as an incidental catch and we should grin when we shoot one.
People on the other side of this issue from myself see them as some sort of holy grail that we should turn the entire budget of the DNR inside out and upside down to propagate them so that they can relive 1948.
Which they could accomplish on their own properties with their own money if they wanted to.


----------



## Hunters Edge

Hackman said:


> I do remember the Put and Take birds of the past were some big tender good tasting birds unlike some of the wily old tough roosters now.
> 
> Let's not make 180,000 sound like the world will end if it's spent. Let's see what happens and make it better in the future. DNR personnel are great people but they also are well paid and great benefits. State officials I guarantee you are saying if 180,000 make things quite down hell ya give it to them. Their HAP land I believe is good and if they could acquire more small mini game areas that would be great. Believe me if we can play a little golf with the right people we can make a lot more progress. the money is there for all of us. Hunters pay a lot money. Ask how much money bird watchers, hikers, mushroom pickers, etc. contribute, I rest my case.


The post above your post specifically or made it quite clear it is $250,000 not $180,000. So why continue to say or discuss $180,000? Unless you and those agreeing or pushing for this is still trying to hide the actual cost?

Which I might add you replied to and is in your post.

The main or majority reason given for new hunters or those not trying hunting is property availability. It would seem that with HAP land being leased from the state from 2 to 25 an acre or average or split that at 12.50 an acre. 250,000 divided by 12.50 = 20,000 or equates to an additional 20,000 acres available for hunters. Which if all the studies and money invested in these studies are correct. 20,000 additional acres of private property available to hunters for access has more value or chance of getting new hunters than this fiasco or waiste of money/funds.

IMO


----------



## Zeboy

30 pages (well 29 actually)? Really???
Wow - seasons over and everyone's got their "undies in a bunch".

250K is a drop in the freaking bucket! Get over it already. People complaining it should be spent on land acquisition. Do you realize how little land 250K will purchase?

People complaining pen raised birds are crap and will never survive. Of course, some of the same people complaining that the gene pool will be watered down by these birds. Aahhh - both statements can't be correct ya know?

I wonder how many people this year shot "wild birds" that actually were birds that were pen raised that someone released?????

I got No opinion on the program. 30 pages - Really?

Time for people to go partake in some of legal weed I think.


----------



## FNC

Zeboy said:


> 30 pages (well 29 actually)? Really???
> Wow - seasons over and everyone's got their "undies in a bunch".
> 
> 250K is a drop in the freaking bucket! Get over it already. People complaining it should be spent on land acquisition. Do you realize how little land 250K will purchase?
> 
> People complaining pen raised birds are crap and will never survive. Of course, some of the same people complaining that the gene pool will be watered down by these birds. Aahhh - both statements can't be correct ya know?
> 
> I wonder how many people this year shot "wild birds" that actually were birds that were pen raised that someone released?????
> 
> I got No opinion on the program. 30 pages - Really?
> 
> Time for people to go partake in some of legal weed I think.


Sounds like you've begun...


----------



## John Singer

Zeboy said:


> Time for people to go partake in some of legal weed I think.


If you do that, it is generally not a good idea to drink the bong water.


----------



## Tomfive5

I am not 100% against this program. I am against it infringing on the areas where we have wild pheasant, and those areas hold more birds than most people realize.
I have tried to read more about these programs in other states, and I gather that the hardcore upland hunters are not in favor, but the once or twice a year guys who have a dog enjoy it, and so do kids.
IMO a solid compromise would be a pheasant stamp to participate in a "put n take" program, but half or more of the proceeds go to funding habitat projects across the state. If this was sold as a program that was being used to improve habitat throughout the state, then myself, and maybe others would have less of an issue with it.
As far as hunter recruitment goes, seems strange to recruit new hunters to a sport where it is often necessary to have a dog.

Again, I think it is important to note that this program is most likely being implemented, but we still have a chance to have input in how it is handled, and to try and make it so it is a program than generates funds instead of one that is a government funded game farm.


----------



## Howitzer

fordman1 said:


> They should have talked about it with everyone not just about 35 people or less. A good time would have been before lunch when Debbie was making her grand entrance or when Mike was on stage. Then you would have had about 140 people to hear the reasoning behind it. Instead they did it at that talk when they are looking for people to put money into those areas, Sneaky.


Actually no, that is not how it went down. The adopt a game area did their presentation and I interjected to start the discussion. Mr. Beaman PF or the DNR had nothing to do with it, I did it solely on my own to start the discussion. To be clear I think Mr. Beaman said almost word for word he knows nothing about it and has nothing to do with it.


----------



## birdhntr

Zeboy said:


> 30 pages (well 29 actually)? Really???
> Wow - seasons over and everyone's got their "undies in a bunch".
> 
> 250K is a drop in the freaking bucket! Get over it already. People complaining it should be spent on land acquisition. Do you realize how little land 250K will purchase?
> 
> People complaining pen raised birds are crap and will never survive. Of course, some of the same people complaining that the gene pool will be watered down by these birds. Aahhh - both statements can't be correct ya know?
> 
> I wonder how many people this year shot "wild birds" that actually were birds that were pen raised that someone released?????
> 
> I got No opinion on the program. 30 pages - Really?
> 
> Time for people to go partake in some of legal weed I think.


No birds I harvested were pen raised.

As for land acquisition programs read the history in Minnesota and see how it started and the growth over the years.1542 properties and 180000 acres.Once land is purchased it provides space for wildlife.

Lands for sale at a glance (examples)
118 acres list price 252,000 cass city
80 acres 265,000 deckerville
40 acres 135000 ugly
60 acres 215,000 wheatland.
These lands would still be there.And open to all hunting,recreation and include everyone. The money from stocking is already gone with no futurity.

Dilution of genetics would be after 97% mortality and a 3% survival then those birds that have a 3% nesting rate breeding into wilds that have a 54% nesting rate or higher which in turn could reduce this percentage. Add that to a reduced gene pool that is slowly diversifying is counterproductive.
Hybrids seeds rarely are sterile from crossing.Hybrid bluegills don't have success inreproduction but have the capability.?This can effect disease antibodies in wild pheasants and there immune systems.This also has the capability to introduce an unknown into the wild.The breeding of domesticated pheasants year after year after year has breed out the genetics of wild birds.Incident of disease antibodies can occur

Read some theses and dissertations on these topics by very intelligent people.What I see is a group of concerned people and possibly you have a panty problem.Ironic that you made this statement.
I have read for four years on many topics on upland and find the scientific studies interesting and worthy.


----------



## birdhntr

*Emergence of Influenza A Virus Variants after Prolonged Shedding from Pheasants*
Jennifer Humberd, Kelli Boyd,Robert G. Webster

*DOI:* 10.1128/JVI.02346-06

Article
Figures & Data
Info & Metrics
 PDF

*ABSTRACT*
We previously demonstrated the susceptibility of pheasants to infection with influenza A viruses of 15 hemagglutinin (HA) subtypes: 13/23 viruses tested were isolated for ≥14 days, all in the presence of serum-neutralizing antibodies; one virus (H10) was shed for 45 days postinfection. Here we confirmed that 20% of pheasants shed low-pathogenic influenza viruses for prolonged periods. We aimed to determine why the antibody response did not clear the virus in the usual 3 to 10 days, because pheasants serve as a long-term source of influenza viruses in poultry markets. We found evidence of virus replication and histological changes in the large intestine, bursa of Fabricius, and cecal tonsil. The virus isolated 41 days postinfection was antigenically distinct from the parental H10 virus, with corresponding changes in the HA and neuraminidase. Ten amino acid differences were found between the parental H10 and the pheasant H10 virus; four were in potential antigenic sites of the HA molecule. Prolonged shedding of virus by pheasants results from a complex interplay between the diversity of virus variants and the host response. It is often argued that vaccination pressure is a mechanism that contributes to the generation of antigenic-drift variants in poultry. This study provided evidence that drift variants can occur naturally in pheasants after prolonged shedding of virus, thus strengthening our argument for the removal of pheasants from live-bird retail 
Just a snippet from a long read.


----------



## birdhntr

provided similar results for pheasant releases in Pennsylvania, and Thompson et al. (1992) reported 54–67.8% harvest rates for released grey partridges; of this 72.6–84.7% was harvested during the first week after release. 

The ‘put and take’ practice has also been criticised for being less sporting than the hunting of wild birds (Leedy & Hicks 1945, Allen 1956 cited in Krauss et al. 1987), while for others it lacks ‘aesthetic appeal’ (Roseberry et al. 1987). Hunter satisfaction for ‘put and take’ is low when compared to wild bird hunting, as reared birds are easier to shoot than wilds (Ratti & Workman 1976, Byers & Burger 1979). Hunters do not gain satisfaction from killing a quarry, but mainly from the effort expended during the hunting process (Xenophon 430–354 BC, Ortega y Gasset 1942, Causey 1989, Dahles 1993). Vitali (1990) regards the hunter as exercising distinctive human skills, intelligence and virtues such as ‘emotional discipline and patience’. Causey (1989) describes the ‘sport hunter’ as someone who values and enjoys the hunting process: “the drive in sport hunting is to be a link in the chain of nature, connected as predator to prey”; the hunter “regards his prey with admiration, reverence and respect”. Leopold (1943) suggested that cultural values of hunting lie in keeping traditions alive, reminding hunters of human origin and dependence on the trophic chain as well as promotion of a land ethic.

On the contrary, ‘put and take’ is not harmonised with hunting philosophy and tradition (Sokos & Birtsas 2008), and does not promote a land ethic (Starling 1991). Peterle (1967) found that an Ohio hunter who feels that ‘put and take’ is the only way to improve his sport was never a member of a social group about nature and athletics, has not read any technical book about wildlife, would kill all the game he could if the legislation permitted it, and feels that hunting is not worthwhile if his hands and feet get cold. ‘Put and take’ participants give emphasis to the number of harvested birds (Peterle 1967, Greene 1970), thus ‘put and take’ can be characterised as ‘over-consuming hunting’ (Sokos & Birtsas 2008). ‘Put and take’ also drives the transition from hunting to poultry and from hunter to stockbreeder and shooter (Sokos & Birtsas 2008). Furthermore, the above may decrease the social legitimacy of hunting and reduce the lobbying power of hunters


----------



## birdhntr

Put and take’ provides a means of serving harvest demand in areas with relatively dense human populations, small areas of public lands and limited hunting opportunity (Kabat et al. 1955, Greene 1970). Release for ‘put and take’ requires high numbers of birds, so artificial rearing is usually used to minimise cost per bird (Game Conservancy 1994). However, Baumgartner (1944) and Buechner (1950) reported that the cost of each released bobwhite that entered the bag of a hunter was high due to limited survival after release. Diefenbach et al. (2000) found that the cost of game-farm pheasants in Pennsylvania ranged from $22.63–$90.74 per harvested bird depending on the date and location of release.

This was in 2000.


----------



## Mi. Chuck

birdhntr said:


> *Emergence of Influenza A Virus Variants after Prolonged Shedding from Pheasants*
> Jennifer Humberd, Kelli Boyd,Robert G. Webster
> 
> *DOI:* 10.1128/JVI.02346-06
> 
> Article
> Figures & Data
> Info & Metrics
> PDF
> 
> *ABSTRACT*
> We previously demonstrated the susceptibility of pheasants to infection with influenza A viruses of 15 hemagglutinin (HA) subtypes: 13/23 viruses tested were isolated for ≥14 days, all in the presence of serum-neutralizing antibodies; one virus (H10) was shed for 45 days postinfection. Here we confirmed that 20% of pheasants shed low-pathogenic influenza viruses for prolonged periods. We aimed to determine why the antibody response did not clear the virus in the usual 3 to 10 days, because pheasants serve as a long-term source of influenza viruses in poultry markets. We found evidence of virus replication and histological changes in the large intestine, bursa of Fabricius, and cecal tonsil. The virus isolated 41 days postinfection was antigenically distinct from the parental H10 virus, with corresponding changes in the HA and neuraminidase. Ten amino acid differences were found between the parental H10 and the pheasant H10 virus; four were in potential antigenic sites of the HA molecule. Prolonged shedding of virus by pheasants results from a complex interplay between the diversity of virus variants and the host response. It is often argued that vaccination pressure is a mechanism that contributes to the generation of antigenic-drift variants in poultry. This study provided evidence that drift variants can occur naturally in pheasants after prolonged shedding of virus, thus strengthening our argument for the removal of pheasants from live-bird retail
> Just a snippet from a long read.


You certainly have some detailed research papers. Do you have anything on wild pheasants that would shed light on why the massive decline across the midwest? I'm interested in disease, poisoning, genetics, and anything aside from the topics already discussed. I've contacted the Audubon Society and MIDNR but no data other than the birds continue to decline. Thx.


----------



## birdhntr

Mi. Chuck said:


> You certainly have some detailed research papers. Do you have anything on wild pheasants that would shed light on why the massive decline across the midwest? I'm interested in disease, poisoning, genetics, and anything aside from the topics already discussed. I've contacted the Audubon Society and MIDNR but no data other than the birds continue to decline. Thx.


PM sent.Hope you have time.
The only success is habitat and wild bird relocations.Alaska has been relocating ruffed grouse to expand the range and it has been the largest success story of current times.


----------



## Gamekeeper

birdhntr said:


> Put and take’ provides a means of serving harvest demand in areas with relatively dense human populations, small areas of public lands and limited hunting opportunity (Kabat et al. 1955, Greene 1970). Release for ‘put and take’ requires high numbers of birds, so artificial rearing is usually used to minimise cost per bird (Game Conservancy 1994). However, Baumgartner (1944) and Buechner (1950) reported that the cost of each released bobwhite that entered the bag of a hunter was high due to limited survival after release. Diefenbach et al. (2000) found that the cost of game-farm pheasants in Pennsylvania ranged from $22.63–$90.74 per harvested bird depending on the date and location of release.
> 
> This was in 2000.


Keep it coming.
Well done!

The clear presentation of facts may stymie this effort.


----------



## birdhntr

Aldo Leopold was a smart man reading his literature is enlightening.
The science and research has been provided for a long time with time and money well spent.We have all the information to make the best of what we have.The hardest bridge to cross is the will of mankind.


----------



## birdhntr

Mi. Chuck said:


> You certainly have some detailed research papers. Do you have anything on wild pheasants that would shed light on why the massive decline across the midwest? I'm interested in disease, poisoning, genetics, and anything aside from the topics already discussed. I've contacted the Audubon Society and MIDNR but no data other than the birds continue to decline.
> Most only see the decline in pheasants but the whole ecosystem is in decline.If you pick a high harvest area then do some searching you will see it is always related to habitat quantities.North and South Dakota have lost a lot of ground and more is still yet to come.The new seeds,pesticides,and herbicides are impacting also.A whole new Animal.


----------



## Gamekeeper

It’s partly anecdotal, but the genesis of the anti-GMO movement in continental Europe, started with the observation from a young Dutch fellow riding his bicycle along the dikes when he noticed he was no longer covered with dead bugs when he arrived at his destination.

The insect biomass had been depleted by GMO seed.

No bugs no birds.


----------



## birdhntr

Gamekeeper said:


> It’s partly anecdotal, but the genesis of the anti-GMO movement in continental Europe, started with the observation from a young Dutch fellow riding his bicycle along the dikes when he noticed he was no longer covered with dead bugs when he arrived at his destination.
> 
> The insect biomass had been depleted by GMO seed.
> 
> No bugs no birds.


Close to 500million birds are gone says the science.Coincidental?


----------



## Mi. Chuck

Gamekeeper said:


> It’s partly anecdotal, but the genesis of the anti-GMO movement in continental Europe, started with the observation from a young Dutch fellow riding his bicycle along the dikes when he noticed he was no longer covered with dead bugs when he arrived at his destination.
> 
> The insect biomass had been depleted by GMO seed.
> 
> No bugs no birds.


Do you mean "neonics"? I thought GMO had to do with the ability to fend off herbicides such as RU and it's clones. Very interesting in either case. Very short story. I met an old farmer from Ontario. He said a neighbor had used treated seed on one field, and nothing on the adjoining field. During winter plowing he noticed hundreds of sea gulls feeding on worms/insects in the non treated field. The treated field had NO birds. Bad stuff.


----------



## birdhntr

Mi. Chuck said:


> Do you mean "neonics"? I thought GMO had to do with the ability to fend off herbicides such as RU and it's clones. Very interesting in either case. Very short story. I met an old farmer from Ontario. He said a neighbor had used treated seed on one field, and nothing on the adjoining field. During winter plowing he noticed hundreds of sea gulls feeding on worms/insects in the non treated field. The treated field had NO birds. Bad stuff.


That treated field can go to weeds and the weeds will grow and be resistant from drawing it up from the soil.England and Europe have some very educational reads on this topic.


----------



## Hunters Edge

Mi. Chuck said:


> Do you mean "neonics"? I thought GMO had to do with the ability to fend off herbicides such as RU and it's clones. Very interesting in either case. Very short story. I met an old farmer from Ontario. He said a neighbor had used treated seed on one field, and nothing on the adjoining field. During winter plowing he noticed hundreds of sea gulls feeding on worms/insects in the non treated field. The treated field had NO birds. Bad stuff.


Makes sense the seed actually killed beetles and moths. Which in larvae is grub and cutworms which seagulls would gladly eat if available, when breaking the soil.


----------



## birdhntr

I would like to see a scientific study.An area with no birds.Establish cover,nesting,and food.Then relocate wild birds from different locations to the area and see what transpires over time.No hunting with a five year study on population dynamics.I believe that some of these areas are not rebounding fast because of genetics.The studies of all wildlife shows that when endangered species reach a real low number that it essentially is the end.The genetic variant is to low which is why few become none,In simple analogy i read a term.Refering to it as bottle necked.


----------



## FNC

Gamekeeper said:


> You guys understand that the more of this stuff that’s been widely published that you post in this thread,the fewer and fewer reasons remain for the releasing of pheasants to shoot on state game areas.
> 
> It boils down to “I want a subsidized game farm experience at my local SGA”.
> 
> The rest is camouflage designed to capture tax dollars.


Not to mention preserves do a better job of this....


----------



## Hunt0527

michiganmaniac said:


> My buddy's dad began hunting around 25-30 years ago. He said they would hunt up north but if time was limited they would hunt around town. They used to move plenty of birds in cannonsburg state game area. Then those dwindled but they moved to rogue river state game area with good success. Then further north. I distinctly remember about 12 years ago when I was a kid who had no idea what a drumming grouse was(neither did my dad apparently), we were spring Turkey hunting in cannonsburg SGA. We heard what we decided to be someone trying to start their tractor repeatedly without success. My dad started laughing saying "man I feel bad for that guy". Well I looking back now it was obviously a spring drummer. Theres no reason why grouse couldn't still be there, other than aged out forest. Sure there may be a couple but I can promise you I'm not hotspotting!


There is a timber sale on the books at cannonsburg state game area in the near future.


----------



## Hunt0527

Hunt0527 said:


> There is a timber sale on the books at cannonsburg state game area in the near future.


There has also but sales at rogue river in the past few years.


----------



## michiganmaniac

Hunt0527 said:


> There has also but sales at rogue river in the past few years.


Thank you for the information on cannonsburg! I recently sent Al Stewart an email to see how I could get more involved and he sent me this encouraging news:
_I forgot to add that on the Game Areas north of Grand Rapids (RRSGA, Flat River, Edmore, etc), our wildlife field staff have increased their cutting activities to focus on creating habitat for grouse and woodcock. We have worked with the Ruffed Grouse Society to do this work and used the RGS habitat machine to do some of this work. The “Woodcock and Young Forest Initiative” that we helped to design has helped to make this a priority in the Great Lakes Region. DNR staff, Forest Service staff and private land owners are encouraged to follow the guidelines within this Initiative document to manage for early successional forests that are so important to a large suite of species.

Also, the DNR has the Wildlife Habitat Grant program and the Forest Service along with other partners could apply for these funds to help to expand young forests on their properties._


----------



## birdhntr

ringnecks

BEN MOYER
Special to the Post-Gazette



DEC 17, 2017

12:00 AM
SIOUX FALLS, S.D. -- From the crest of a low ridge, the South Dakota plains rolled away like a rumpled quilt. Belts of red, brown and yellow grass, tall and short, flanked ranks of soybeans, corn and wheat. Amid that order, dark splotches of cattail slough claimed low places. Anywhere the eye settled was a jumble of crops, grass and cover.


Walking abreast, four orange-vested hunters followed bird dogs into a swath of wild sunflower. Ring-necked pheasants heard their approach and flushed in waves — dozens, perhaps a hundred, all beyond shotgun range. Later the dogs did point singles where the pheasant waves had alighted, and the hunters downed a few.

That scene is typical of South Dakota every October. No other state is so inseparably linked to the ring-necked pheasant. According to South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks annual surveys, the state’s pheasant population averages 8.5 million birds each fall, but has peaked at 16 million. Nearly 100,000 visiting hunters from across the United States, plus 60,000 state residents, hunt pheasants in South Dakota, bagging around 1.2 million roosters annually.

ADVERTISEMENT
The four hunters noted, plus their observer, had traveled west from Pennsylvania, once acclaimed for its own ringneck abundance. During the second in the state’s three-tier pheasant season (Dec. 11-23 and Dec. 26-Feb. 28), some Pennsylvania sportsmen blame the ringneck crash on predators or hard winters, while Game Commission representatives cite changing farm practices and urbanization of former farmland. Most likely, a combination of factors have made Pennsylvania an inhospitable place for pheasants, relative to the prairies sprawling across Kansas, Nebraska, eastern Montana, Iowa, southern Minnesota and the Dakotas, all robust with ringnecks.

 

John Hayes
Outdoors notebook: State ranked low for deer hunting
Two Great Plains attributes that are tough for Pennsylvania to equal are space and grass. South Dakota’s average human population density is 11 persons per square mile, while 285 people occupy the average Pennsylvania square mile. That alone complicates pheasant management.

Pheasants are a grassland bird, while Pennsylvania is a forest state where anyplace left alone becomes woodland. Grass here must be maintained. According to the U.S. Department. of Agriculture’s “Major Uses of Land in the United States, 2007,” grassland or range covers only 4.2 percent of the land base in the Northeast, and 8.5 percent of the Appalachian region. On the Northern Plains, including South Dakota, grassland occupies 39 percent of the surface.

Pheasants, though, like variety in their habitat.

ADVERTISEMENT
“What’s interesting, and challenging, about pheasants is that they require different habitat elements at different times of year, and they have relatively small home ranges,” said Travis Runia, senior upland game biologist for the South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks agency. “They do best when they don’t have to travel to meet seasonal needs for nesting, brood and winter cover, and food. It’s ideal to have about 50 percent food source and 50 percent cover, with grasses being the common thread. Speaking in general terms, we are fortunate to have that over eastern South Dakota for now. That’s why pheasants thrive here.”

Farmers’ crop selections and how crops are produced also impact the quality of habitat.

“Less wheat and other small grains are being planted now than row crops like corn and soybeans,” Runia said. “But wheat fields provide better pheasant habitat than row crops. Corn and soybeans offer pheasants food but nothing else. Years ago, before the surge in herbicide use, when row crop fields were weedier, there wasn’t such a difference in cover. But now, without nearby grass, row crops are not providing habitat anymore.”

Even if South Dakota farmers are producing less small grains relative to row crops, there’s still a lot of wheat on the land. The USDA Census of Agriculture reports that in 2012, South Dakota farmers harvested 4.3 million acres (26 percent of all cropland) of wheat. In the same year, Pennsylvania farmers harvested 150,000 wheat acres, 4 percent of the 3.9 million-acre cropland total. Corn occupied 36 percent of Pennsylvania cropland acreage.

Still, from Runia’s professional perspective, the common denominator is grass.

“Pheasants are resilient, but they have limits,” Runia said. “What we’ve observed is that [the absence of] idle grasslands are a limiting factor for pheasants. When they don’t have large blocks of undisturbed grass for nesting and brood habitat, they’ll find somewhere else to nest—in a road ditch, or a hayfield that will be mowed. They’re less successful than when they nest in large blocks of permanent or semi-permanent grass.”

Expanses of grass habitat also make pheasants less vulnerable to predators, Runia observed.

“When predators search the landscape, they key on edges, ditches or patches of cover to find a nest,” he said. “Think of how human hunters approach this. A ditch is easy to hunt, but a pheasant is tough to find in a 160-acre block of grass. It’s the same with predators.

“Predation is not so much a problem as a symptom of a problem,” Runia continued. “When you have good habitat, you can still have good pheasant numbers even with predators. But in marginal habitats, predation losses can go through the roof.”

Despite South Dakota’s historic success with pheasants, future success is uncertain. The state’s pheasant plan notes that every historic peak in the pheasant population has corresponded with surges of grass cover on the land. It happened in the early 1930s during the Great Depression, and the mid-1940s during World War II. Pheasant numbers peaked in the early ‘60s at the height of the USDA Soil Bank Program, in which farmers were paid to retire land from production for 10 years. Most recently in the early 2000s, pheasants boomed again at the peak of the Conservation Reserve Program.

Congress established CRP in the 1985 Farm Bill and farmers everywhere responded to the opportunity. CRP enables landowners to enter into 10- or 15- year contracts with USDA and receive annual rental payments for acres removed from crop production and converted to grass. Thus stabilized, CRP acres prevent soil erosion, maintain water quality and provide critical habitat for pheasants and other wildlife. Most CRP contracts also have a provision for public access for hunting and fishing.

Thirty-seven million acres were enrolled nationwide by the program’s peak in 2007, including 1.8 million in South Dakota. But for the past decade, Congress has reduced CRP funding and lowered the cap on enrolled acreage. Millions of CRP-enrolled acres have expired or will expire soon, likely to return to crop production. South Dakota’s enrolled CRP lands have shrunk by half since their pinnacle.

“The recent and future loss of expiring CRP acres is a major concern of wildlife managers on the Northern Great Plains,” states the South Dakota pheasant management plan.

This same trend threatens potential pheasant habitat in Pennsylvania. By 2022, CRP contracts on 100,000 Pennsylvania acres will expire. Pheasants Forever, a nationwide conservation organization that promotes pheasant habitat through private land stewardship, encourages hunters to urge Congress to restore CRP funding in the 2018 Farm Bill.

“The Conservation Reserve Program is the nation’s most successful private lands habitat program ever in existence,” Pheasants Forever public relations manager Jared Wiklund wrote in a recently distributed commentary.

Another possible factor in Pennsylvania’s pheasant dilemma, different from South Dakota, is that the Game Commission has released millions of pen-raised pheasants for hunter harvest across the state.

“There are some private preserve operators who release pheasants, but [South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks] don’t do that as an agency,” Runia said.

Decades ago knowledgeable observers — including Roger Latham, the former Game Commission biologist and long-time outdoors editor of the Pittsburgh Press — argued that the Commission’s release of pen-raised birds diluted natural survival traits that wild pheasants possessed, rendering their offspring less fit.

But even if that could be proven, the Game Commission is in a tough spot with pheasants and pheasant hunters. While virtually no wild birds survive, pheasant hunting remains popular, yet depends entirely on expensive artificial stocking. For the first time, during the 2017-18 season, pheasant hunters are required to buy an adult pheasant permit ($26.90) in addition to a general hunting license (resident adult $20.90).

Except for one limited tract in Eastern Pennsylvania, where the Game Commission staged a recent youth hunt for wild pheasants, efforts to restore self-sustaining populations have failed.


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## Gamekeeper

birdhntr said:


> ringnecks
> 
> BEN MOYER
> Special to the Post-Gazette
> 
> 
> 
> DEC 17, 2017
> 
> 12:00 AM
> SIOUX FALLS, S.D. -- From the crest of a low ridge, the South Dakota plains rolled away like a rumpled quilt. Belts of red, brown and yellow grass, tall and short, flanked ranks of soybeans, corn and wheat. Amid that order, dark splotches of cattail slough claimed low places. Anywhere the eye settled was a jumble of crops, grass and cover.
> 
> 
> Walking abreast, four orange-vested hunters followed bird dogs into a swath of wild sunflower. Ring-necked pheasants heard their approach and flushed in waves — dozens, perhaps a hundred, all beyond shotgun range. Later the dogs did point singles where the pheasant waves had alighted, and the hunters downed a few.
> 
> That scene is typical of South Dakota every October. No other state is so inseparably linked to the ring-necked pheasant. According to South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks annual surveys, the state’s pheasant population averages 8.5 million birds each fall, but has peaked at 16 million. Nearly 100,000 visiting hunters from across the United States, plus 60,000 state residents, hunt pheasants in South Dakota, bagging around 1.2 million roosters annually.
> 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> The four hunters noted, plus their observer, had traveled west from Pennsylvania, once acclaimed for its own ringneck abundance. During the second in the state’s three-tier pheasant season (Dec. 11-23 and Dec. 26-Feb. 28), some Pennsylvania sportsmen blame the ringneck crash on predators or hard winters, while Game Commission representatives cite changing farm practices and urbanization of former farmland. Most likely, a combination of factors have made Pennsylvania an inhospitable place for pheasants, relative to the prairies sprawling across Kansas, Nebraska, eastern Montana, Iowa, southern Minnesota and the Dakotas, all robust with ringnecks.
> 
> 
> 
> John Hayes
> Outdoors notebook: State ranked low for deer hunting
> Two Great Plains attributes that are tough for Pennsylvania to equal are space and grass. South Dakota’s average human population density is 11 persons per square mile, while 285 people occupy the average Pennsylvania square mile. That alone complicates pheasant management.
> 
> Pheasants are a grassland bird, while Pennsylvania is a forest state where anyplace left alone becomes woodland. Grass here must be maintained. According to the U.S. Department. of Agriculture’s “Major Uses of Land in the United States, 2007,” grassland or range covers only 4.2 percent of the land base in the Northeast, and 8.5 percent of the Appalachian region. On the Northern Plains, including South Dakota, grassland occupies 39 percent of the surface.
> 
> Pheasants, though, like variety in their habitat.
> 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> “What’s interesting, and challenging, about pheasants is that they require different habitat elements at different times of year, and they have relatively small home ranges,” said Travis Runia, senior upland game biologist for the South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks agency. “They do best when they don’t have to travel to meet seasonal needs for nesting, brood and winter cover, and food. It’s ideal to have about 50 percent food source and 50 percent cover, with grasses being the common thread. Speaking in general terms, we are fortunate to have that over eastern South Dakota for now. That’s why pheasants thrive here.”
> 
> Farmers’ crop selections and how crops are produced also impact the quality of habitat.
> 
> “Less wheat and other small grains are being planted now than row crops like corn and soybeans,” Runia said. “But wheat fields provide better pheasant habitat than row crops. Corn and soybeans offer pheasants food but nothing else. Years ago, before the surge in herbicide use, when row crop fields were weedier, there wasn’t such a difference in cover. But now, without nearby grass, row crops are not providing habitat anymore.”
> 
> Even if South Dakota farmers are producing less small grains relative to row crops, there’s still a lot of wheat on the land. The USDA Census of Agriculture reports that in 2012, South Dakota farmers harvested 4.3 million acres (26 percent of all cropland) of wheat. In the same year, Pennsylvania farmers harvested 150,000 wheat acres, 4 percent of the 3.9 million-acre cropland total. Corn occupied 36 percent of Pennsylvania cropland acreage.
> 
> Still, from Runia’s professional perspective, the common denominator is grass.
> 
> “Pheasants are resilient, but they have limits,” Runia said. “What we’ve observed is that [the absence of] idle grasslands are a limiting factor for pheasants. When they don’t have large blocks of undisturbed grass for nesting and brood habitat, they’ll find somewhere else to nest—in a road ditch, or a hayfield that will be mowed. They’re less successful than when they nest in large blocks of permanent or semi-permanent grass.”
> 
> Expanses of grass habitat also make pheasants less vulnerable to predators, Runia observed.
> 
> “When predators search the landscape, they key on edges, ditches or patches of cover to find a nest,” he said. “Think of how human hunters approach this. A ditch is easy to hunt, but a pheasant is tough to find in a 160-acre block of grass. It’s the same with predators.
> 
> “Predation is not so much a problem as a symptom of a problem,” Runia continued. “When you have good habitat, you can still have good pheasant numbers even with predators. But in marginal habitats, predation losses can go through the roof.”
> 
> Despite South Dakota’s historic success with pheasants, future success is uncertain. The state’s pheasant plan notes that every historic peak in the pheasant population has corresponded with surges of grass cover on the land. It happened in the early 1930s during the Great Depression, and the mid-1940s during World War II. Pheasant numbers peaked in the early ‘60s at the height of the USDA Soil Bank Program, in which farmers were paid to retire land from production for 10 years. Most recently in the early 2000s, pheasants boomed again at the peak of the Conservation Reserve Program.
> 
> Congress established CRP in the 1985 Farm Bill and farmers everywhere responded to the opportunity. CRP enables landowners to enter into 10- or 15- year contracts with USDA and receive annual rental payments for acres removed from crop production and converted to grass. Thus stabilized, CRP acres prevent soil erosion, maintain water quality and provide critical habitat for pheasants and other wildlife. Most CRP contracts also have a provision for public access for hunting and fishing.
> 
> Thirty-seven million acres were enrolled nationwide by the program’s peak in 2007, including 1.8 million in South Dakota. But for the past decade, Congress has reduced CRP funding and lowered the cap on enrolled acreage. Millions of CRP-enrolled acres have expired or will expire soon, likely to return to crop production. South Dakota’s enrolled CRP lands have shrunk by half since their pinnacle.
> 
> “The recent and future loss of expiring CRP acres is a major concern of wildlife managers on the Northern Great Plains,” states the South Dakota pheasant management plan.
> 
> This same trend threatens potential pheasant habitat in Pennsylvania. By 2022, CRP contracts on 100,000 Pennsylvania acres will expire. Pheasants Forever, a nationwide conservation organization that promotes pheasant habitat through private land stewardship, encourages hunters to urge Congress to restore CRP funding in the 2018 Farm Bill.
> 
> “The Conservation Reserve Program is the nation’s most successful private lands habitat program ever in existence,” Pheasants Forever public relations manager Jared Wiklund wrote in a recently distributed commentary.
> 
> Another possible factor in Pennsylvania’s pheasant dilemma, different from South Dakota, is that the Game Commission has released millions of pen-raised pheasants for hunter harvest across the state.
> 
> “There are some private preserve operators who release pheasants, but [South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks] don’t do that as an agency,” Runia said.
> 
> Decades ago knowledgeable observers — including Roger Latham, the former Game Commission biologist and long-time outdoors editor of the Pittsburgh Press — argued that the Commission’s release of pen-raised birds diluted natural survival traits that wild pheasants possessed, rendering their offspring less fit.
> 
> But even if that could be proven, the Game Commission is in a tough spot with pheasants and pheasant hunters. While virtually no wild birds survive, pheasant hunting remains popular, yet depends entirely on expensive artificial stocking. For the first time, during the 2017-18 season, pheasant hunters are required to buy an adult pheasant permit ($26.90) in addition to a general hunting license (resident adult $20.90).
> 
> Except for one limited tract in Eastern Pennsylvania, where the Game Commission staged a recent youth hunt for wild pheasants, efforts to restore self-sustaining populations have failed.


Get with it dude.

Nobody wants to hear that.
We want what we want. 
And now that we’ve got the taxpayers wallet paying for it we’re going to have it!
God dang it!
So just STHU about it already!

You left out that the Marcellus shale paid for their boondoggle until revenues dropped and then along came the stamp.

It was all for the children.

I’d rather see retirees get the tax lifted from their pensions than have a special interest group steal it and dump it from a truck.


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## birdhntr

Howitzer said:


> One thing that is established is there will no hunting 24 hours prior to release.
> 
> Lets put it out there that hordes of hunters show up, the bad thing is they will have to work it out with other hunters just like the duck marshes on state land. The flip side of this tragedy is that hunter enthusiasm is established and we can push for funding from other organizations to satisfy hunter demand. If I were a preserve owner I would be taking advantage of this to alleviate hunter congestion.
> 
> Right now nobody knows how many people show up, there are no concrete surveys about the numbers of pheasant hunters, but we know how many hunters are going to other states like SD to hunt pheasant which is roughly 18K. There will be a survey on your Michigan 2019 hunting license to ask if you are a pheasant hunter, that will help establish the baseline.
> 
> https://www.capjournal.com/news/non...cle_f23925f4-8b03-11e8-86f5-c7afdedfb984.html


18000 over the last ten years from Michigan


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## Howitzer

birdhntr said:


> 18000 over the last ten years from Michigan


18000 individuals, yes. presumably pheasant hunting. Are you trying to make a point?


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## John Singer

Tomfive5 said:


> I know plenty of young people who are avid shooters and gun owners even though their parents had no interest in the sport. It just is not carrying over into the outdoors; Deer hunting is a big reason and access to hunting are big reasons. I think two of the big issues are that most people are just plain old unfamiliar with small game hunting, so when they think they want to start hunting they look into deer hunting. Every TV show and Magazine about deer hunting makes it seem like you need a few hundred acre farm and 10 grand in gear just to get started. The other reason is a lot of people don't realize that Michigan has an abundance of public land opportunities and that squirrel and rabbit make a fine meal.


Have any of you seen February 2019 American Hunter Magazine from the NRA?


My copy arrived yesterday. This month's edition contains articles on hunting Bison in the West, Cape Buffalo in Zimbabwe, predators with squeaky toys, and the only article about bird hunting involved hunting Swans on the Great Salt Lake. The magazine also contains the usual stuff about how someone is attacking our firearms freedom.

I am not certain what demographic they are appealing to but I am not in it.

In my opinion, there is not a hunting article here that I can relate to. I doubt that many young people or new hunters can relate either.

There is not a single article about upland, small game, or nonexotic big game hunting. I do not understand why it is called American Hunter.

I thumbed through the magazine and tossed it in the trash.


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## birdhntr

Howitzer said:


> 18000 individuals, yes. presumably pheasant hunting. Are you trying to make a point?


Yes that's an average of 1800 Michigan residents per year.Not 18000 in one year.


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## Howitzer

birdhntr said:


> Yes that's an average of 1800 Michigan residents per year.Not 18000 in one year.


um No. Not an average. I did not say 18K in one year. It is 18K individual hunters in the last 10 years, not an average. Again what is your point?


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## DirtySteve

michgundog said:


> Giving dates, times and locations would be creating a zoo. Why couldn’t they release them in likely locations and let the hunters figure it out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


That would probably go against what ohio is trying to achieve. The point of spending the money on releasing birds is to create excitement and publicity amongst hunters. Get them out there buying licenses,guns,ammo,boots,dogs, ecollars etc.. 

Relasing 15k birds under the radar in hopes that hunters will search them out on their own doesnt create the same result. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## michgundog

Howitzer said:


> One thing that is established is there will no hunting 24 hours prior to release.
> 
> Lets put it out there that hordes of hunters show up, the bad thing is they will have to work it out with other hunters just like the duck marshes on state land. The flip side of this tragedy is that hunter enthusiasm is established and we can push for funding from other organizations to satisfy hunter demand. If I were a preserve owner I would be taking advantage of this to alleviate hunter congestion.
> 
> Right now nobody knows how many people show up, there are no concrete surveys about the numbers of pheasant hunters, but we know how many hunters are going to other states like SD to hunt pheasant which is roughly 18K. There will be a survey on your Michigan 2019 hunting license to ask if you are a pheasant hunter, that will help establish the baseline.
> 
> https://www.capjournal.com/news/non...cle_f23925f4-8b03-11e8-86f5-c7afdedfb984.html


A pheasant hunter survey in 2019?? Why does the DNR care so much now about pheasant hunters? My impression was they wanted everyone hunting deer, geese(flying rats) and turkey....


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## DecoySlayer

Yeah, I can see where restoring native species, like geese and turkeys is such a bad thing. I can see why we don't have a dove season too.


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## birdhntr

Howitzer said:


> Right now nobody knows how many people show up, there are no concrete surveys about the numbers of pheasant hunters, but we know how many hunters are going to other states like SD to hunt pheasant which is roughly 18K.


This did not say over ten years and I just felt people may be mislead by this statement is all.Including that was over ten years is relevant and to be fair and non biased it should have been mentioned.
If the harvest rate is 50% then a stamp does not cover the cost for a single bird or even at 80% harvest rate.Pennsylvania is just burning money that could be put to better use in my opinion.How is that sustainable.They hav reduced costs and last I read the budget was 3.7million so if that stands consistent for 5 years they will spend 18.5 million.They harvest around 110000 birds a year with wilds included.


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## multibeard

Part of the reason we lost the dove vote was that some hunters would not support the rest of us to be able to hunt doves. I left over $100 of ammo and other hunting supplies on the counter of the Dunham's store in Ludington when the manager of the department said he was not going to vote for dove hunting because he had no interest in hunting them. I told him if he was not going to support those that wanted to hunt them he could put what I was going to buy back on the shelf. I also told him I would make it known his stance on dove hunting so that other hunters would not support his department.

The scary part of any thing hunting related getting on a ballot is almost sure to go against hunters as the city people that have never been hunting will probably vote against it.


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## Hackman

FNC said:


> Firearm safety should be taught to all students in 5th or 6th grade. They'd develop a healthy respect/seriousness of firearms handling and safety as opposed to being introduced on video games like Grand Theft Auto. Hell, sex ed is taught in 6th grade, why not firearm safety?


In the 70's I would buy shotgun shells at the local K-Mart and 22 and Thought I was younger than 16 , we would walk to most of our hunting spots few miles away and small game hunt. Holy crap would erupt if a kid tried that today. I just went into Walmart couple days ago bought a 5.00 slingshot , WD-40, and some carb cleaner every item the cashier had to verify I was older than 18. That is why a Kid doesn't hunt anymore, its not worth the trouble. A kid can't even buy a slingshot.


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## michgundog

multibeard said:


> Part of the reason we lost the dove vote was that some hunters would not support the rest of us to be able to hunt doves. I left over $100 of ammo and other hunting supplies on the counter of the Dunham's store in Ludington when the manager of the department said he was not going to vote for dove hunting because he had no interest in hunting them. I told him if he was not going to support those that wanted to hunt them he could put what I was going to buy back on the shelf. I also told him I would make it known his stance on dove hunting so that other hunters would not support his department.
> 
> The scary part of any thing hunting related getting on a ballot is almost sure to go against hunters as the city people that have never been hunting will probably vote against it.


Awesome post!! I lived in SCS the whole time that was going on, I was approached several times to sign petitions at pet stores, Eastern Market and of all places a hospital. Every time one of them approached me they got an earful! Their little speech was just a bunch of BS..Too bad hunters can’t mobilize like the anti groups did over shooting a very plentiful tasty game bird. The one guy even told me there’s no dove hunting down south... lmao!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## DecoySlayer

michgundog said:


> Too bad hunters can’t mobilize like the anti groups did over shooting a very plentiful tasty game bird. The one guy even told me there’s no dove hunting down south... lmao!!


We are too busy trying to stop people from shooting this deer or that deer and many were busy voting against a new hunting season just because they are not good enough shots to hit doves.


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## Howitzer

DecoySlayer said:


> We are too busy trying to stop people from shooting this deer or that deer and many were busy voting against a new hunting season just because they are not good enough shots to hit doves.


OMG..LOL. And dove hunting would hurt deer hunting


multibeard said:


> Part of the reason we lost the dove vote was that some hunters would not support the rest of us to be able to hunt doves. I left over $100 of ammo and other hunting supplies on the counter of the Dunham's store in Ludington when the manager of the department said he was not going to vote for dove hunting because he had no interest in hunting them. I told him if he was not going to support those that wanted to hunt them he could put what I was going to buy back on the shelf. I also told him I would make it known his stance on dove hunting so that other hunters would not support his department.
> 
> The scary part of any thing hunting related getting on a ballot is almost sure to go against hunters as the city people that have never been hunting will probably vote against it.


+1 in that.


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## gundogguy

multibeard said:


> Part of the reason we lost the dove vote was that some hunters would not support the rest of us to be able to hunt doves. I left over $100 of ammo and other hunting supplies on the counter of the Dunham's store in Ludington when the manager of the department said he was not going to vote for dove hunting because he had no interest in hunting them. I told him if he was not going to support those that wanted to hunt them he could put what I was going to buy back on the shelf. I also told him I would make it known his stance on dove hunting so that other hunters would not support his department.
> 
> The scary part of any thing hunting related getting on a ballot is almost sure to go against hunters as the city people that have never been hunting will probably vote against it.


Elections have consequences!


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## DecoySlayer

Howitzer said:


> OMG..LOL. And dove hunting would hurt deer hunting



OH it does, it does! I can't begin to tell you how many times I have had deer walk into the same fields where I was hunting dove and feed merrily while I banged away a those gray ghosts. That would pull the deer away from any deer hunters who happened to be hunting before deer season was open.


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## Howitzer

DecoySlayer said:


> I was hunting dove and feed merrily


Can I borrow that? I wonder if a dove decoy spread would increase antler size harvest. I am sure merry deer have better antler growth.


----------



## DecoySlayer

Howitzer said:


> Can I borrow that? I wonder if a dove decoy spread would increase antler size harvest. I am sure merry deer have better antler growth.


Not the decoys, the repeated shotgun fire forces the antlers out larger and faster.


----------



## Howitzer

DecoySlayer said:


> Not the decoys, the repeated shotgun fire forces the antlers out larger and faster.


Ah, so if I want bigger bucks I need to miss more! I am going to try that out.

On this topic, there are fears of hunter interference with deer hunters on state land. Did you have any deer hunter experience while duck hunting this year? I only had one, the guy walked across two huge parcels to tell us how we screwed his hunting up. What are your thoughts on that?


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## DecoySlayer

Most dove hunting takes place before most deer seasons open. Deer hunters, of which I am one, don't own the public land, we all have the right to hunt it. There are those who need to learn to get over it.


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## DecoySlayer

Josh R said:


> Has it happen often during any of the previous SOS speeches that our Michigan governors routinely mention our hunting traditions? I don't usually listen to them to find that info out
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



Well, at one time, in my lifetime, we had a Democrat governor, who hunted. How weird is that?


----------

