# Building your own pistol frame



## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

I have read where it is ok with the BATF to build your own pistol frame as long as you do not sell it, along with some other details. Does anyone now how this would work with Michigans firearm laws. 

I would like to make a nice 1911 frame and build it with high quality parts. Part of the reason is to save some money and partly just because I would like to build one. I am familiar with the purchase permit and safety inspection process, but I am not sure where building your own frame will fall into the process. Obviously once complete I would take it in for the safety inspection ('registering it'), but I wouldn't want to cause any problems or raise suspicion since the frame wouldn't have a serial number.

Anyone have any experience with this? And to go one step further, could a firearm like this be legally carried with a CPL. I would really like to do this, and to the letter of the law, but if it is going to throw up a bunch of red flags with LEO's I won't bother.


----------



## duhunter (Jan 17, 2004)

Contact the MSP firearms section in Lansing or talk with the agency where you would register it. Those are the sources to listen to, not a bunch of faceless names on the internet.


----------



## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

duhunter said:


> Contact the MSP firearms section in Lansing or talk with the agency where you would register it. Those are the sources to listen to, not a bunch of faceless names on the internet.


Actually asking more than one source a question is a great way to find answers.
I doubt the MSP will be as informed and up to date as they may want to appear.
Mutipule resources is the way to go, nameless or faceless.

You can also lessen the nameless face syndrome by adding more info to the profile section.
Best,
Kirk


----------



## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

you might want to pose that question to the m. c. r, g. o. i'am sure you'll get a correct answer in their forum. lots and lots of attorneys belong to and give cpl advise, and it wouldn't hurt you to join either!


----------



## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

I wish you luck.

I went round and round with them.

I finally spoke to Special Agent Battles of the Detroit branch of the ATF. She was helpful.

The general consensus is that when you go down to get your purchase permit, you will have to take the gun with you. It will then have to be shipped to the MSP crime lab to be entered into their system and they will apply a serial # to it. I by no means want some monkey with a hammer putting a serial number on a gun.

I tried to make my case by saying, What if my grandfather had a gun that was 50 years old, prior to the 68 GCA when it was required that the gun be marked with a serial number....thus, the gun was never entered into any manufacturer database. He marked the gun with a serial number of his own choice (according to BATFE standards, can't remember the law number). Then he registered it. So what's the difference...it's at least marked with a number so that if it's lost, it can possibly be recovered.

I have a half finished derringer frame that I've been simple too afraid to complete. I dont want to deal with the michigan laws. I will wait two years until I move to AK, when I can just mark it...then if I move back to MI, I'll just mark it with a serial # and do the importation thing.

You will get a huge runaround from the MSP, as well as the BATFE...they will all give you conflicting information. I had considered writing them to get it in writing, but the last thing I want to do is have them decide it's flat out illegal and put it on the books. That's the last thing we need.


----------



## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

build the frame itself? the machining and all? or are you wanting to build from the frame up?


----------



## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

john warren said:


> build the frame itself? the machining and all? or are you wanting to build from the frame up?


Yes, machine the frame from a solid billet. 

Thank's snowman for sharing your experience, I was kind of afraid it would be quite a hassle. I will keep looking into it, but it looks like I might change gears and look into building a good rifle receiver.


----------



## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

that's what i decided to do...

no paperwork whatsoever...

but the day i leave the state, i'll start crankin out pistols


----------



## 7MM Magnum (Sep 10, 2003)

I'd take it up with the *BATF* first,.. and then maybe to the state level depending what the FEDS tell ya'. 

The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms will have the 1st say so seeing that they are the FEDERAL Government and are the main people governing that kinda' stuff.

Personally I like the idea,.. makes your weapon more personal. I get that same feeling after dumping many hours into a rifle stock from a wood blank. 


Nothing like something made by yourself.


----------



## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

ATF says it's perfectly legal....there are specific restrictions (can never sell it)

State law is where it gets screwy....and only with handguns, because of our required "registration"


----------



## alex-v (Mar 24, 2005)

NoWake said:


> I would like to make a nice 1911 frame and build it with high quality parts. Part of the reason is to save some money and partly just because I would like to build one.


No problem. If you want to get around that comment about faceless names shoot me an eMail and I can give you the names of attorneys who are pro-gun and gun friendly to help you out. As for going to the MCRGO forums , good luck. They dropped their forums without warning several years ago and said that their members could not communicate with each other.

Yes, there are a couple of people in the state who have build guns from the frame up. And, built the frame and then the rest of the gun. Latest guy I met built a rifle from a billet and dealt with the ATFE each step of the way. No problem and the gun shoots good from reports left on our personal eMail list.


----------



## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

When you build a rifle and or pistol in a pro-gun state, you dont have to communicate with the ATF at all. Frankly, you shouldn't be telling them that you are building it (personal opinion). It is really that simple. 

When you build one in Michigan however, it gets more difficult...simply because we have to register pistols. Rifles are still easy, no ATF communication needed. I dont even believe that you dont even have to serialize it (though I strongly recommend it). There are A LOT of people in Michigan building rifles...but like most things gun related, A LOT of those guys ARE NOT bragging about it (paranoia?)...I personally dont care anymore. 

From the ATF website:

(A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105] 

There are a lot of companies out right now that are STILL selling 80% frames. That is, it's a forging...you do a little machine work (supposedly, 20% of it) and lap your slide on. I would strongly suggest staying away from this for a while. You should keep an eye on Richard Celetta's case, he was selling 80% frames and was raided by the ATF. You can get a lot of the updates from www.homegunsmith.com 

I really dont expect this building a gun from scratch thing to last much longer with laws going the way they are...but then we get too much in to politics, and too far from legality for this forum 

Furthermore, if you call the ATF and speak to one of the special agents, they'll be able to tell you state laws too. I'd entirely skip the MSP if you can. I have a lot of respect for the guys, but they enforce the law...they dont always have the best understanding of the technicalities.


----------



## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

i suspect you will spend far more on labor then the frame is worth. you would be better off buying a well proven frame from a manufacturer and going from there. but i build custom knives that if i was fair with my labor costs would run 5 or 6 hundred so who am i to say.


NoWake said:


> Yes, machine the frame from a solid billet.
> 
> Thank's snowman for sharing your experience, I was kind of afraid it would be quite a hassle. I will keep looking into it, but it looks like I might change gears and look into building a good rifle receiver.


----------



## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

john warren said:


> i suspect you will spend far more on labor then the frame is worth. you would be better off buying a well proven frame from a manufacturer and going from there. but i build custom knives that if i was fair with my labor costs would run 5 or 6 hundred so who am i to say.


Maybe you should be buying your knives from a well proven production knife manufacturer then. 

When I am building something for myself, I do not figure any 'labor' cost if it is something I *want* to build. Plus I figure it would go pretty quick if I go up to the hardware store and buy that new hacksaw blade that Black and Decker just came out with. Plus my neighbor down the road is a scrap metal dealer and I am sure I could find a chunk of something really cheap. Just yesterday I saw about 6 trailer loads of junk lined up waiting to get wieghed.


----------



## alex-v (Mar 24, 2005)

NoWake said:


> When I am building something for myself, I do not figure any 'labor' cost if it is something I *want* to build.


I like the entire msg. We could look at it in relation to deer hunting. It is a lot cheaper and easier to go to a game ranch and buy a couple of sides of venison than it is to go on a one day hunting trip.

Go for it NoWake and let me know how it turns out.


----------



## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

I understand there is a movement to do away with the "safety inspection." Get hold of your rep and senator and let them know how you feel. Point out that many sheriff/police depts dont register as many think they should--ie only limited hours. On that bnasis they should be more than happy to get rid of it. ALL records regarding this abomination should be destroyed.


----------

