# Why do we need so many bear in the Baldwin unit ?



## stickbow shooter

So after being forced the other day to take another bite of the S hit sandwich this world liked to serve up once in awhile. I got to ask, why do we need so many dam bear in this area. I mean come on, I have seen 6 different bear in one day alone. It seems every trail camera we put out we get pics of bear. We shouldn't have to wait 13 plus years to draw a dam tag. Mark my words, somebody is going to get killed over this situation these so called biologists have created. Who I in the hell thinks of this crap.Hey I have an idea, let's make a area in the lower that has a sky high bear population, screw the folks that live there. Pets and people be dammed. I believe it was just last year our the year before a girl got mauled by a bear near Cadillac .
While we were at the vets they asked where we lived. We told them they asked was it a sow with three cubs ? . Our reply was no just two. They said there is another one in our area that has been going after dogs and causing havoc. As you can tell I'm not over what has happened ( never will be ) but something has to be done.


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## sureshot006

Is the population that high everywhere in the unit or just pockets of high population? Maybe it needs to be broken up?


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## DecoySlayer

There have been 61 people killed by black bears, in all of North America, since 1900. I don't think we need to worry all that much.


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## stickbow shooter

DecoySlayer said:


> There have been 61 people killed by black bears, in all of North America, since 1900. I don't think we need to worry all that much.


I shouldn't have started this thread yet I guess. Not ready to get into it with folks.


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## stickbow shooter

sureshot006 said:


> Is the population that high everywhere in the unit or just pockets of high population? Maybe it needs to be broken up?


I'm a member of a FB page on bear watching. Yes there are tons of bears in this area. Ask Jr28schalm.


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## DecoySlayer

No, the question of numbers is valid, the idea that those numbers will likely lead to human deaths is really pushing it. It is so very unlikely. Your chances of dying from bee stings or dog bites are far higher than being killed by a black bear. Your chances of being killed by a human are even higher.


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## stickbow shooter

DecoySlayer said:


> No, the question of numbers is valid, the idea that those numbers will likely lead to human deaths is really pushing it. It is so very unlikely. Your chances of dying from bee stings or dog bites are far higher than being killed by a black bear. Your chances of being killed by a human are even higher.


That girl in Cadillac probably never imagined she would get attacked either ,just crap is getting out of hand Around here. That's all folks are talking about is bears. I've never in my life have been afraid of being attacked by either wolves or bears. After the other day, I might start packing.


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## plugger

Many years ago , probably 40, a DNR biologist stopped at my FIL's farm and asked permission to look over an area that was good bear habitat. He then said there were a lot more bears around than people realized and he felt that bears should not be protected or encouraged. He felt Mason and Lake counties had too high of a human population to be appropriate bear area. He said there had been several killed in the area and the DNR had not pursued it. People always think we should protect bears, wolves, lions, and saber tooth tigers but when they are in someone else's back yard not theirs's.


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## sureshot006

stickbow shooter said:


> I'm a member of a FB page on bear watching. Yes there are tons of bears in this area. Ask Jr28schalm.


So... the whole Baldwin unit or specific areas of Baldwin? Seems likely that there are pockets that have a lot higher population density than the bulk of the Baldwin unit.

A Facebook group for bear watching is probably not the most representative of overall Baldwin unit population. It's likely "cherry picking" (for lack of better words) people in areas of the highest density.

I'm not saying there isn't "overpopulation" in certain areas, especially those areas where humans are pushing them out, but maybe the unit needs to be split up to address true high population from the bulk average density.

I understand where your frustration is coming from... very sorry to read of your loss.


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## sureshot006

I found this map interesting. From sumyunguy's telemetry study in 2007. It shows high concentrations in pockets, but obviously there will be bears outside of where they concentrated their efforts.


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## sureshot006

Link to the old study. Probably not much of the content and conclusions have changed, but the actual populations probably have increased since then.

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/55326/1/nhcarter_thesis_final_edit.pdf


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## Uncle Boopoo

I’ve been going up to family property in Baldwin for about 30 years and had never seen a bear until 3 years ago. Since then, I’ve seen 4 different bears in different areas and I’m only up there a handful of weekends per year. Locals I talk to are also reporting increased sightings. DNR increased the number of bear permits in the Baldwin unit the in last couple years but maybe it’s not enough.


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## stickbow shooter

I'm sure it's spotty. I'm talking about the area from just west of Wellston to Cadillac. From Brethren to just south of Big Bass lake. At least that's the area I'm familiar with and talk to the most folks.


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## stickbow shooter

sureshot006 said:


> I found this map interesting. From sumyunguy's telemetry study in 2007. It shows high concentrations in pockets, but obviously there will be bears outside of where they concentrated their efforts.
> 
> View attachment 409893


Looks like I'm in the hot spot. 55 &37 Hoxeyville.


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## DecoySlayer

stickbow shooter said:


> That girl in Cadillac probably never imagined she would get attacked either ,just crap is getting out of hand Around here. That's all folks are talking about is bears. I've never in my life have been afraid of being attacked by either wolves or bears. After the other day, I might start packing.



Don't come down here! There is a FAR higher chance that you will be carjacked, mugged, have your house invaded, etc, by humans, than your chances of being harmed by a bear.


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## stickbow shooter

DecoySlayer said:


> Don't come down here! There is a FAR higher chance that you will be carjacked, mugged, have your house invaded, etc, by humans, that your chances of being harmed by a bear.


Lol I have no intention of coming down there.


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## DecoySlayer

I don't blame you! LOL!


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## DigitalGuru

Interesting to see that map from 2007. Shows no bears in Gladwin county. Now there are at least 4, right behind (and on) my property!


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## DecoySlayer

I used to have them come in, and sit on my back porch, in town, when I lived in Oil City, PA.


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## TriggerDiscipline

sureshot006 said:


> I found this map interesting. From sumyunguy's telemetry study in 2007. It shows high concentrations in pockets, but obviously there will be bears outside of where they concentrated their efforts.
> 
> View attachment 409893


That map is highly inaccurate. 

I've seen 4 different bears on my cams in GT county near Kingsley. Another 2 on one 80 acre parcel in Leelanau, and another 1 across the lake in Leelanau. the other day a bear swam across the harbor in Leland. People in Kingsley and Fife Lake are reporting havoc with their bird feeders. 

The bear population is exploding around here. Licenses need to be increased two-fold and that won't even put a dent in the population.


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## DecoySlayer

stickbow shooter said:


> I had 12 points going into this year, didn't draw . Now I have 13 . My brother in law has 13 he didn't draw.


Yeah, I get that. I don't hunt bear. If I ever wanted to hunt them, I would go to PA, buy a tag over the counter, sit in my cousins stand, and shoot one. If I wanted to be picky, and shoot a really big one, I would hunt 3 or 4 days as opposed to just one. 

No dogs, no bait allowed. He has several crossing his place almost daily. The BIG one, he estimates about 500lbs he only sees once or twice a week.


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## Thirty pointer

The general population loves bears .I knew a hard core bear hunter turned bear feeder who had his entire area come to view and feed his bears .Little kids hand feeding a 500 # bear .Little incentive to drastically reduce the population .Just like raccoons people see them as cute cuddly animals not something that needs to be controlled .Watch the outrage if higher permits are issued .


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## stickbow shooter

Thirty pointer said:


> The general population loves bears .I knew a hard core bear hunter turned bear feeder who had his entire area come to view and feed his bears .Little kids hand feeding a 500 # bear .Little incentive to drastically reduce the population .Just like raccoons people see them as cute cuddly animals not something that needs to be controlled .Watch the outrage if higher permits are issued .


Just like the wolf hunt.


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## sureshot006

stickbow shooter said:


> I had 12 points going into this year, didn't draw . Now I have 13 . My brother in law has 13 he didn't draw.


If I remember right, with 13 you have a chance. With 14 you'll get one.


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## stickbow shooter

That's what I've heard. Time will tell.


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## Luv2hunteup

How many go to the bear forum meeting in December? If you want to know the whys attend the meetings.


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## stickbow shooter

Luv2hunteup said:


> How many go to the bear forum meeting in December? If you want to know the whys attend the meetings.


I never knew there was one. But will be interested in going to the next one.


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## Luv2hunteup

G


stickbow shooter said:


> I never knew there was one. But will be interested in going to the next one.


I try to start a thread when it’s announced along with whatever PowerPoint presentations I can find. A couple examples.


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## Tilden Hunter

stickbow shooter said:


> So after being forced the other day to take another bite of the S hit sandwich this world liked to serve up once in awhile. I got to ask, why do we need so many dam bear in this area. I mean come on, I have seen 6 different bear in one day alone. It seems every trail camera we put out we get pics of bear. We shouldn't have to wait 13 plus years to draw a dam tag. Mark my words, somebody is going to get killed over this situation these so called biologists have created. Who I in the hell thinks of this crap.Hey I have an idea, let's make a area in the lower that has a sky high bear population, screw the folks that live there. Pets and people be dammed. I believe it was just last year our the year before a girl got mauled by a bear near Cadillac .
> While we were at the vets they asked where we lived. We told them they asked was it a sow with three cubs ? . Our reply was no just two. They said there is another one in our area that has been going after dogs and causing havoc. As you can tell I'm not over what has happened ( never will be ) but something has to be done.


I love bears and bear hunting. I'm not doing a good job of following your thread. Are you saying more bear tags should be issued in your area? Maybe so.


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## Tilden Hunter

The longer I hunt bears the less I understand them.

During the 2017 season I saw no bears until the evening I took one. On that evening I saw at least five bears, and maybe as many as eight. All in the space of 1-1/2 hours.


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## otterc

stickbow shooter said:


> That's what I've heard. Time will tell.


Yes - you will draw next year. I drew last year going in with 13 points.


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## stickbow shooter

Tilden Hunter said:


> I love bears and bear hunting. I'm not doing a good job of following your thread. Are you saying more bear tags should be issued in your area? Maybe so.


Yes I believe we need more tags. I'm not the only one seeing alot more bears in this area. They have become the talk of the town so to speak. Last couple of years my son and I have been running trail cams in a three county area , Manistee,Lake and Wexford. Almost every card check there would be bears on them. Before someone says ,did you have them over bait. No we did not. Majority were hung either on oak ridges and close to deer bedding areas.
I'm pissed right now because of the one killing my dog, but was saying we need to lower the population before that happened.


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## Luv2hunteup

Another benefit of attending the annual bear forum is getting access to data of reported bear kill locations. It sure helps to eliminate non productive land.


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## Luv2hunteup

stickbow shooter said:


> Yes I believe we need more tags. I'm not the only one seeing alot more bears in this area. They have become the talk of the town so to speak. Last couple of years my son and I have been running trail cams in a three county area , Manistee,Lake and Wexford. Almost every card check there would be bears on them. Before someone says ,did you have them over bait. No we did not. Majority were hung either on oak ridges and close to deer bedding areas.
> I'm pissed right now because of the one killing my dog, but was saying we need to lower the population before that happened.


Reporting bear problems to the DNR is one factor that is used to determine annual quotas.


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## stickbow shooter

Several have also been hit by vehicle's the last couple years, I have heard of 3 just this year so far. Bears are cool, but we don't need this dam many in our area.


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## sureshot006

So why the big concentration? Is it truly under harvest or is it people attracting them?


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## stickbow shooter

sureshot006 said:


> So why the big concentration? Is it truly under harvest or is it people attracting them?


I'm going with under harvest.


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## stickbow shooter

Don't get me wrong I'm sure some do hang bird feeders and that does attract the bears. It isn't like everyone is in one neighbourhood around here. Your talking about miles if river bottoms, hardwoods and swamps with a little ag land .


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## stickbow shooter

Luv2hunteup said:


> View attachment 410101
> 
> 
> Another benefit of attending the annual bear forum is getting access to data of reported bear kill locations. It sure helps to eliminate non productive land.


Thanks for posting this info.


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## sureshot006

stickbow shooter said:


> Don't get me wrong I'm sure some do hang bird feeders and that does attract the bears. It isn't like everyone is in one neighbourhood around here. Your talking about miles if river bottoms, hardwoods and swamps with a little ag land .


Looking at the harvest map it seems there has got to be a reason for the population density in specific areas and not others.


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## sureshot006

Probably has been answered at some point but... the drawing stats... when they say it takes 13 points to draw, is that 13 points going into 2019's application? Or does that include 2019's application?


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## BucksandDucks

sureshot006 said:


> Probably has been answered at some point but... the drawing stats... when they say it takes 13 points to draw, is that 13 points going into 2019's application? Or does that include 2019's application?


Going in 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## sureshot006

So stick and his buddy should both draw next year for sure unless there is a dramatic change in number of applicants with high points.


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## The Ghettoblaster

stickbow shooter said:


> So after being forced the other day to take another bite of the S hit sandwich this world liked to serve up once in awhile. I got to ask, why do we need so many dam bear in this area. I mean come on, I have seen 6 different bear in one day alone. It seems every trail camera we put out we get pics of bear. We shouldn't have to wait 13 plus years to draw a dam tag. Mark my words, somebody is going to get killed over this situation these so called biologists have created. Who I in the hell thinks of this crap.Hey I have an idea, let's make a area in the lower that has a sky high bear population, screw the folks that live there. Pets and people be dammed. I believe it was just last year our the year before a girl got mauled by a bear near Cadillac .
> While we were at the vets they asked where we lived. We told them they asked was it a sow with three cubs ? . Our reply was no just two. They said there is another one in our area that has been going after dogs and causing havoc. As you can tell I'm not over what has happened ( never will be ) but something has to be done.


Stickbow, I'm sorry for your loss. That had to be terrible. I'm in the BBS group as well and can't believe the number of bears that have been posted there recently from around the area. Multiple times a day from all over the area and mostly during daylight hours. We had one hit and killed in front of our place on 55. A day later had another one on camera in the back yard. I worry about my wife and kids that are up there during the summer while I'm downstate at work, especially when they have to take the dogs out at night. I've told her to make sure that she turns on the porch lights and honks her car horn before taking them out and I've urged her to take a shotgun with her, especially after Otis was attacked. We only use bird feeders and suet cakes during the winter when they aren't active and obviously with the baiting ban, aren't putting corn out for the deer any longer. That has helped keep them away somewhat. We get them passing through but they don't keep coming back if there isn't a food source. 
I agree that the Baldwin Unit should be divided and more tags given out so we can try and bring the number down. I think I have 13 points now so can finally probably draw a tag next year. 
I heard from a source that they are taking rogue bears that are getting into trouble in other parts of the state and are dropping them off in our area near Tippy to relocate them. If that's true, which I can easily believe they would do something like that, it's total BS and should be stopped before someone gets hurt and more dogs and pets die. Take them up to the UP where there is a lot more room and less chances for them to get into trouble. And for anyone that doesn't believe they would do that, keep believing there are no mountain lions in MI or wolves below the bridge.


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## stickbow shooter

The Ghettoblaster said:


> Stickbow, I'm sorry for your loss. That had to be terrible. I'm in the BBS group as well and can't believe the number of bears that have been posted there recently from around the area. Multiple times a day from all over the area and mostly during daylight hours. We had one hit and killed in front of our place on 55. A day later had another one on camera in the back yard. I worry about my wife and kids that are up there during the summer while I'm downstate at work, especially when they have to take the dogs out at night. I've told her to make sure that she turns on the porch lights and honks her car horn before taking them out and I've urged her to take a shotgun with her, especially after Otis was attacked. We only use bird feeders and suet cakes during the winter when they aren't active and obviously with the baiting ban, aren't putting corn out for the deer any longer. That has helped keep them away somewhat. We get them passing through but they don't keep coming back if there isn't a food source.
> I agree that the Baldwin Unit should be divided and more tags given out so we can try and bring the number down. I think I have 13 points now so can finally probably draw a tag next year.
> I heard from a source that they are taking rogue bears that are getting into trouble in other parts of the state and are dropping them off in our area near Tippy to relocate them. If that's true, which I can easily believe they would do something like that, it's total BS and should be stopped before someone gets hurt and more dogs and pets die. Take them up to the UP where there is a lot more room and less chances for them to get into trouble. And for anyone that doesn't believe they would do that, keep believing there are no mountain lions in MI or wolves below the bridge.


Thank you,Yep lots of folks on that site reporting seeing bears, it's gotten crazy. Will cutting the lawn Wednesday I caught myself looking over my shoulder, I've never done that. This has changed me , never even thought of having to protect my dogs.


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## Luv2hunteup

stickbow shooter said:


> Thank you,Yep lots of folks on that site reporting seeing bears, it's gotten crazy. Will cutting the lawn Wednesday I caught myself looking over my shoulder, I've never done that. This has changed me , never even thought of having to protect my dogs.


I understand your concern. I used to bring my dog to camp all the time. Bears are always around and a concern but not that much of a concern. We have a pack of wolves that are now calling our area their home range. Since they have moved in seeing cubs has become a rarity.


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## stickbow shooter

Luv2hunteup said:


> I understand your concern. I used to bring my dog to camp all the time. Bears are always around and a concern but not that much of a concern. We have a pack of wolves that are now calling our area their home range. Since they have moved in seeing cubs has become a rarity.


They will definitely kill cubs , I've read where they even kill adults if found in a den. We are going backwards on management when it comes to major predators it seems. Let's have more wolves,black bears,Grizzly bears, cougars seems to be the popular thing now a days. The thing is , most of these people who want them don't have to live with them.


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## Tilden Hunter

stickbow shooter said:


> They will definitely kill cubs , I've read where they even kill adults if found in a den. We are going backwards on management when it comes to major predators it seems. Let's have more wolves,black bears,Grizzly bears, cougars seems to be the popular thing now a days. The thing is , most of these people who want them don't have to live with them.


I live with them and want them.


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## stickbow shooter

Tilden Hunter said:


> I live with them and want them.


Not to be a smart @$$ but if I remember correctly you live in town don't you ? Look I like bears and wolves,but not running everywhere. There numbers need to be controlled.


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## Luv2hunteup

stickbow shooter said:


> Not to be a smart @$$ but if I remember correctly you live in town don't you ? Look I like bears and wolves,but not running everywhere. There numbers need to be controlled.


When you live in town you have to worry about the big 3. Squirrels, raccoons and opossums. After dark they appear as big as wolves and bears.


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## Tilden Hunter

Yes I live in town, and camp it 20 minutes away door to door. If that makes a difference, I apologize.


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## Botiz

Pure Michigan. We want to kill the bears, we want to clean all the weeds out of the lakes, then we want to get on a website and talk about how much we love the outdoors.


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## stickbow shooter

Botiz said:


> Pure Michigan. We want to kill the bears, we want to clean all the weeds out of the lakes, then we want to get on a website and talk about how much we love the outdoors.


Have you ever had your dog killed by a bear ? Have you ever had your garage door torn to hell because a bear trys to get in? How about watch 6 different bears walk threw your yard ? I believe you put in for a permit didn't you ,so didn't you want to kill one ? Why the flack ?


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## DecoySlayer

No one wants to kill all the weeds in the lakes, just the invasive species that are killing them.


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## Forest Meister

Luv2hunteup said:


> View attachment 410101
> 
> 
> Another benefit of attending the annual bear forum is getting access to data of reported bear kill locations. It sure helps to eliminate non productive land.





sureshot006 said:


> Looking at the harvest map it seems there has got to be a reason for the population density in specific areas and not others.


Strangely enough, the areas of highest kill seem to align quite well with the unit's public lands. Until the well organized and vocal bear hunter groups quit objecting to private land tags we can be quite sure the kill will always be much higher on public land. IMO the bear hunter's lobby isn't going to change their tune until pigs can fly. FM


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## Botiz

stickbow shooter said:


> Have you ever had your dog killed by a bear ? Have you ever had your garage door torn to hell because a bear trys to get in? How about watch 6 different bears walk threw your yard ? I believe you put in for a permit didn't you ,so didn't you want to kill one ? Why the flack ?


First of all, I am truly sorry for the loss of your dog. As most of us here are likely dog owners we all know the pain of losing one for any reason, much less to something so sudden and unexpected. 

I’m sure it’s hard to keep emotions out of the situation and with that in mind I’m not trying to take shots but I don’t read here a thread calling for sound, scientific solutions for determining and maintaining appropriate bear populations. I do intend to bear hunt yes, but in following with recommendations from the professionals and not because I “saw 6 in my yard and they got to go”.


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## stickbow shooter

Botiz said:


> First of all, I am truly sorry for the loss of your dog. As most of us here are likely dog owners we all know the pain of losing one for any reason, much less to something so sudden and unexpected.
> 
> I’m sure it’s hard to keep emotions out of the situation and with that in mind I’m not trying to take shots but I don’t read here a thread calling for sound, scientific solutions for determining and maintaining appropriate bear populations. I do intend to bear hunt yes, but in following with recommendations from the professionals and not because I “saw 6 in my yard and they got to go”.


As for the bear in my yard, you think I'm a friggen hermit. We see them driving to Cadillac,TC, Manistee.I'm not the only one who has been having issues. They are the talk of the town,They seem to be everywhere especially this year. It seems nobody is hunting them around here at least nobody I've seen or heard off. As for the professionals, they have there head up there @$$ when it comes to management. It should not take 13 + years to draw a tag with so many bears. I'm not looking to go all John Wick on there @$$es, but it's getting close.


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## DecoySlayer

Lots of pets are killed by wild animals. Some by coyotes, my wife's, uncle's little yipper dog was carted off and, I assume eaten, by a hawk.


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## stickbow shooter

I'm going to take a much needed brake for this site. Don't want to get booted. Take care guy's .


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## Nostromo

stickbow shooter said:


> I'm going to take a much needed brake for this site. Don't want to get booted. Take care guy's .


Take care. See you back soon I hope.


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## Ford 800

I have to agree with SB. The number of bear sightings in the Kaleva and Brethren area is unreal. 

Granted, that’s a small portion of the Baldwin Unit. 

Down size this unit for better management.


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## plugger

Tilden Hunter said:


> Yes I live in town, and camp it 20 minutes away door to door. If that makes a difference, I apologize.


 I live twenty minutes away from our farm and I have a very real difference on how I view large predators at each location.


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## plugger

Botiz said:


> First of all, I am truly sorry for the loss of your dog. As most of us here are likely dog owners we all know the pain of losing one for any reason, much less to something so sudden and unexpected.
> 
> I’m sure it’s hard to keep emotions out of the situation and with that in mind I’m not trying to take shots but I don’t read here a thread calling for sound, scientific solutions for determining and maintaining appropriate bear populations. I do intend to bear hunt yes, but in following with recommendations from the professionals and not because I “saw 6 in my yard and they got to go”.


 There is no such thing as what is appropriate number for some ones back yard. There may be opinions on what is desirable or acceptable. How you perceive bears is often changed by whether they are in a wild space or "Your space".


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## Botiz

If someone puts their backyard next to a pig farmer I’d not be inclined to commiserate with their complaints about the smell. 

If they put it next to a place that bears live, I’m sorry but when they see and deal with bears I can’t understand being upset over it.


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## Waif

Botiz said:


> There’s plenty of places in the state where you won’t have to worry about bears in your backyard. Stickbow didn’t choose to live there though.


There's plenty of places in the state for you to shut your city boy azz the hell up too.
Why don't you go find one?


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## Biggbear

Stickbow- First, it sounds like with the reference to the vet like your dog got into it with a bear? If I read that right I hope everything turned out well for the pup. If I misinterpreted, please ignore.

As to your question, it seems to me the DNR has tried to keep Baldwin as a quality hunting area for bear. They seem to want a higher number of bears, and that unit already has a reputation for big bears that they seem to want to perpetuate. Thats just my impression, I've never seen any press release saying that. I've had the same thought as you for a while now, I've never seen any official reason for them keeping numbers high, but they don't seem to be in a rush to change the growth trend either.


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## Botiz

I deleted my last post, didn’t intend for it to upset you but it clearly did and for that I apologize.


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## multibeard

waif I have been wondering if he is a UP native or a city transplant. It would be interesting to know. He does not sound like any of the Yoopers I have met in the many times I have been there.


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## Nostromo

Waif said:


> There's plenty of places in the state for you to shut your city boy azz the hell up too.
> Why don't you go find one?


Woah. Boritz is right when he says it comes with the territory. I don't argue that bears are a problem in populated areas. But you own a place in bear country you'll see bears. In the city we have are own crosses to bear like finding a street guy in the back of your truck sleeping it off. (luckily not deceased).


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## stickbow shooter

multibeard said:


> waif I have been wondering if he is a UP native or a city transplant. It would be interesting to know. He does not sound like any of the Yoopers I have met in the many times I have been there.


Are you referring to me ?


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## stickbow shooter

Nostromo said:


> Woah. Boritz is right when he says it comes with the territory. I don't argue that bears are a problem in populated areas. But you own a place in bear country you'll see bears. In the city we have are own crosses to bear like finding a street guy in the back of your truck sleeping it off. (luckily not deceased).


I know it comes with the territory, it isn't like I'm the only one having problems with bears in our area. Just too dam many. Any how, tired of talking about it.


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## stickbow shooter

Botiz said:


> I deleted my last post, didn’t intend for it to upset you but it clearly did and for that I apologize.


No need to apologize, you have your opinions and I have mine. But thanks anyways.


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## Waif

Nostromo said:


> Woah. Boritz is right when he says it comes with the territory. I don't argue that bears are a problem in populated areas. But you own a place in bear country you'll see bears. In the city we have are own crosses to bear like finding a street guy in the back of your truck sleeping it off. (luckily not deceased).


I took two shots off the deck today when the dogs were goin nuts against the fence due to an intruder. Next time we may be beyond the fence. Not that the fence can stop bigger intruders. I won't tolerate the dogs being harassed or assaulted.

It's not about what intrudes in what number how often. Or what exists to intrude.
It's dealing with it.
When intrusion is not defensible , those intruded on have a problem. A problem beyond their address.
When stock is killed. No one needs to explain why the location is suspected as the blame.
When the right to defend stock by reducing depredation is a concern I could care less what citified folk think about where some one should live. Not sure what you don't understand about such. It's not your place to measure some one else's loss.
Or to encourage increasing depredation.

When some one asks why the state supports higher numbers of a certain type critter in certain areas , what is the question?

Another member has repeatedly mentioned too many bear in an area. (Not the same area Stick is in). What's more , there are too many bear there based on their behaviors clashing with both ag. and residents , and hunters. Does the state know? Of course they do.

Should every one in a given area move to a city to not have bear in high enough numbers for them to be common in order to avoid conflict?
I wouldn't. Nor expect anyone to. Why is that?


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## Nostromo

Waif said:


> When the right to defend stock by reducing depredation is a concern I could care less what citified folk think about where some one should live. Not sure what you don't understand about such. It's not your place to measure some one else's loss.
> Or to encourage increasing depredation.


A lot of your post I didn't quote. Can't imaging it was directly related to what I posted anyway.

I didn't imply you should live in one place or another nor did I say anything against people protecting their livestock. Dogs are not livestock by the way.

We all know bear number are high in that area. The DNR has a plan for that particular area's management. This plan includes removing problem bears like started this whole thread in the first place. It's calling the DNR and not shooting off your fire arms that will have an impact on problem bears. You see, the DNR understands what the social carrying capacity is and they take it into consideration. Who knows maybe it'll only take 10 points during the next two year cycle.

Waif, I'd like to close by saying I enjoy your posts, and the insight's you provide.


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## triplelunger

Is there any talk on this Bear watching facebook group about allowing permission to successful hunters? I imagine there would be plenty of takers to hunt an area with such a high concentration of bears.


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## jr28schalm

stickbow shooter said:


> I know it comes with the territory, it isn't like I'm the only one having problems with bears in our area. Just too dam many. Any how, tired of talking about it.


Damn things keep smacking my cams man. My buddies make fun of me about doing deer habitat work and say bear habitat


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## stickbow shooter

triplelunger said:


> Is there any talk on this Bear watching facebook group about allowing permission to successful hunters? I imagine there would be plenty of takers to hunt an area with such a high concentration of bears.


I haven't seen any but that doesn't mean there isn't. I mentioned on here for guys to come here and help thin them out.


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## jr28schalm

All them bikes in irons probly pushing them damn things our way. Last year I got up before my brother and thought about making him a twinkie tree in front of his tree stand


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## stickbow shooter

jr28schalm said:


> All them bikes in irons probly pushing them damn things our way. Last year I got up before my brother and thought about making him a twinkie tree in front of his tree stand


Lol


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## Waif

Nostromo said:


> A lot of your post I didn't quote. Can't imaging it was directly related to what I posted anyway.
> 
> I didn't imply you should live in one place or another nor did I say anything against people protecting their livestock. Dogs are not livestock by the way.
> 
> We all know bear number are high in that area. The DNR has a plan for that particular area's management. This plan includes removing problem bears like started this whole thread in the first place. It's calling the DNR and not shooting off your fire arms that will have an impact on problem bears. You see, the DNR understands what the social carrying capacity is and they take it into consideration. Who knows maybe it'll only take 10 points during the next two year cycle.
> 
> Waif, I'd like to close by saying I enjoy your posts, and the insight's you provide.


Sorry. I value my dogs more than previous stock. Value wise in dollars per individual is much greater on some. But the personal bonds are greater too.
They are more than part of a power outage security system.

The bear here are polite. Mostly. Lesser numbers has ( in this case) that effect.
One stood at fifteen yards while I held a rifle after going out of it's way to say howdy.. Was not disappointed it went the other way when it dropped back on all fours.
May be the same one some one shot a couple miles away when in it's path of desired rush , but one bear lost a conflict anyways. As bear often do when they don't avoid human self imposed boundaries..

If something wants to try the fence I'll meet it halfway. (Wait till I'm asleep.)
A coyote beyond the fence will get attention though. 
Not a hate ,or shouldn't be here in appreciable numbers arrangement , like my other property for hunting..
Only a human boundary caused by conflict. One is too many.

With bears , and appreciable numbers enough to see/encounter them regular there has always been conflict.
Always will be.
Like deer , there are often more than you see.
Competition among bear factor in where they end up at a given time. And unlike deer , there are bear that cover a lot of ground.
Combined with maternal instinct , and boars quite willing to kill cubs ; momma tends to err on the aggressive side.
It is in bear survivals best interest. But not my dogs or my best interests.
Let's keep it an uneasy truce and bear stay beyond where I would have them be. (Grabbing dogs.)

Humans are not overly tolerant of the idea of my dogs either. (As well as aspects of their owners flawed character) Or at least would not be in a high human density area.
I tried city living a year.
While sidewalks are appreciated , it was just not a good fit.
So I infringe on the edge , and demand boundaries here. 
Only some critters catch on though. 
The young dispersing , the old , and the weak , or just the more submissive , end up on the fringes of better/quieter habitat near humans self proclaimed manicured borders.
With greater numbers either way , conflict arises in proportion.

Without a proper/accurate density study to confirm the state needing higher numbers in a given area , it remains a matter of contention among those living there.
A few bear cover a lot of resident human desire (or tolerance) of having them around. With males covering a heck of a lot of ground.
Beyond that.....An individual bear can be a greater nuisance than any number of bear just passing through.


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## Liver and Onions

stickbow shooter said:


> ......... I mentioned on here for guys to come here and help thin them out.


In past years or just after this event ? 
I haven't read much of this thread. Do you have enough property to set up a bear bait station and have enough room for a bear to run off a short ways and still be recovered on your property ?

L & O


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## sureshot006

Yea... but with the extreme population seems it would be easy.

I guess if you really want to reduce the population you gotta hurry up and shoot before you see the cubs.


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## stickbow shooter

There is alot of small private parcels in the unit. But also big chunks of Fed land. Anyways, there are alot of bears.


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## Botiz

Just so everyone knows, the number of tags available for Baldwin were increased in 2015, 2017 and 2019.

Tags have almost quadrupled since 2014.


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## Nostromo

I'm sure everyone already know this but... The sows with cubs and smaller bears are near people at this time of year because their survival depends on staying out of the way of the bigger bears.


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## GVDocHoliday

stickbow shooter said:


> Several have also been hit by vehicle's the last couple years, I have heard of 3 just this year so far. Bears are cool, but we don't need this dam many in our area.


I've had 2 bears hit by car within a mile of my house this spring. I've had a bear try to get in to my pole barn in broad daylight, then I had one walk through my yard last Friday at 8pm while my FIL and my daughters were sitting around the fire. My dog lost his sh$t...and that bear flipped over ass over tea kettle to get out of there. The in-ground fence heeled my dog but he'd of tried his hardest to kill that bear and he was right on his heels. Neeldess to say my Border Collie does not like bears. He'll submit and want to play with Pits, Rots, Sheps, etc...he's friendly, the only times I've seen him angry has involved a bear. Once off my porch, once earlier this spring as one circled my yard, and then just last week. 

The number of bear complaints are going up, not because of an increase in human population...at least not in this area...people are fleeing this area. It's because the bear population is simply climbing so high. They should triple the license quota until the bear complaint numbers decrease to a certain level and then adjust until they stabilize. That's just my opinion. A Baldwin unit bear tag should at most be a 6-7preference point tag.


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## Tilden Hunter

I hope that bear hunters in that area are not passing on yearling boars or sow without cubs. If they will only shoot huge bears or nothing, then they are not helping control the population.


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## Musket

Have tried my best to stay out of this highly emotionally charged conversation. I bear hunt every year berglund, 3rd season. No big deal but no stranger to bear hunting. However, if I were waiting 13 years to draw a tag in what is considered one of the best units for a shot at a true trophy. No way in hell would I burn my tag on just any bear that might show up. Would rather eat tag soup and say I was holding out for a Michigan bear of a lifetime. I certainly couldn't blame anyone who may feel the same. Baldwin was never designated to be a population control hunt. It's the hunt you wait what seems a lifetime for. A trophy hunt.


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## Musket

sureshot006 said:


> Yea... but with the extreme population seems it would be easy.
> 
> I guess if you really want to reduce the population you gotta hurry up and shoot before you see the cubs.


 Not only would I consider doing something like that unsporting, unsportsmanlike or having zero sportmanship but downright deviet.


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## sureshot006

Musket said:


> Not only would I consider doing something like that unsporting, unsportsmanlike or having zero sportmanship but downright deviet.


I agree with you.


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## Forest Meister

It sounds like that in the Baldwin Unit bears are regularly destroying feeders, getting into garbage, trying to get into buildings, not fearing people, threatening pets, walking across yards in broad daylight and maybe even begging for handouts because some well intentioned but ignorant neighbor acclimated them to humans. 

The above was also said about bears on Drummond when the population built up to what many, but not all, locals said were unacceptable levels. When those locals tired of bear issues they applied constant pressure in the right places to finally get tag numbers increased. It did not happen overnight, though. Hint, local biologists are usually very sympathetic when it comes to nuisance wildlife issues but he or she has only so much authority and a face-to-face with the next level sometimes gets better results. If not, a face-to-face with the next guy... Also, the more people in one place at one time politely presenting FACTS to a wildlife person (or NRC appointee) carries weight just as it does when confronting an elected official. FM


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## Biggbear

Tilden Hunter said:


> I hope that bear hunters in that area are not passing on yearling boars or sow without cubs. If they will only shoot huge bears or nothing, then they are not helping control the population.


I contacted Stickbow about hunting his area if I happen to draw a tag next year, and my plan is to help him control the population nor worry about a monster. That being said, my situation is different than most. I can put in for a Baldwin tag through the Tribe every year, our lottery doesn't have a preference point system, my odds are actually pretty good. I can also continue to put in for points with the State, I hunted Amasa last year and burned all my points.

For most people who have to wait 14 years to put in for Baldwin I can see them not wanting to shoot a 130 lb bear if they aren't a local who is having problems with bears. As someone else mentioned, if there were far more tags, and it only took half the time to draw I think more hunters would be willing to "settle" for an average bear. As it is now hunters who travel to the Baldwin unit are holding out for one of the giants that unit has a reputation for, in my opinion anyway.


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## stickbow shooter

Why did they want to make this area a " Trophy " unit ? . Why not places in the Yoop. The money folks would spend in those areas would really help the economy there. They have the room and the bears. Not to be confused with Da Bears wich all Yoopers hate .


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## sureshot006

Why not just get the DNR to make a huge trapping and relocation effort? Seems more effective and immediate, and may help spread the wealth to other areas open to bear hunting.

Too expensive? Impractical? Or do they just come right back?


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## stickbow shooter

sureshot006 said:


> Why not just get the DNR to make a huge trapping and relocation effort? Seems more effective and immediate, and may help spread the wealth to other areas open to bear hunting.
> 
> Too expensive? Impractical? Or do they just come right back?


I'd be all for that. They can start on my property.


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## GVDocHoliday

https://www.instagram.com/p/BynsHZsAjyF/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link


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## Liver and Onions

sureshot006 said:


> Why not just get the DNR to make a huge trapping and relocation effort? Seems more effective and immediate, and may help spread the wealth to other areas open to bear hunting.
> 
> Too expensive? Impractical? Or do they just come right back?


We had a single bear in our area, eastern Montcalm/western Gratiot, that needed to be trapped and relocated about 75 miles north. Not that difficult with a single bear, a sow with cubs might not be so easy.
I agree with those that have mentioned hunters who have waited 10+ years to get a tag are not going to be happy with a 120 lb. bear. I know I would eat a tag 1st.
I also thought that the reminder from Nostromo in post # 144 was a good one.

L & O


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## GVDocHoliday

Luv2hunteup said:


> I just looked at the Baldwin BMU stats. Success rate is ~ 50%. That’s an awful lot of unfilled tags. Maybe the guys having bear issues should help others fill their tags. Bears can live 20+ years, you can be part of the solution for your family and neighbors.
> 
> Let the DNR know you are having issues and that you would be willing to help others fill a tag. Place an ad on Craigslist, woods and Water, Michigan Out of Doors magazines or even on this site. It would take a few seasons but you could have an impact on the local population every year.


I run a few bait sites for anyone that wants to hunt em. You provide the bait, I'll run it and check cams. Free of charge. I had a ton of fun running baits for my wife last year. All of which were very active until the acorns started falling. Then they all went cold. I'd expect this year to be a bit better.


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## Biggbear

stickbow shooter said:


> Why did they want to make this area a " Trophy " unit ? . Why not places in the Yoop. The money folks would spend in those areas would really help the economy there. They have the room and the bears. Not to be confused with Da Bears wich all Yoopers hate .


I'm not sure the DNR intended it that way, it just seems that the Baldwin unit developed that reputation. Before I ever got into Bear hunting I had heard of the Nixon's and their reputation for putting clients on monsters. They were featured on MOOD many years ago and that really put them and that unit on the map. If I'm not mistaken even Fred Trost did a show on bear hunting that unit, but my memory is getting foggy so I could be wrong on that one.

It just seems that whether by design or not the DNR has done their best to keep that quality hunt reputation going for that unit. Maybe it has something to do qith ease of access for down state hunters versus the U.P? I'm always amazed at how many peopIe I work with that hunt, but have never crossed the Mighty Mac.


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## stickbow shooter

Yep I have heard of the Nixon bros. They hunt mainly Missaukee County and Wexford ( Mitchell swamp) so If been told. There are huge bears here no doubt. I just wish someone would of thought this threw a little better .


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## stickbow shooter

GVDocHoliday said:


> I run a few bait sites for anyone that wants to hunt em. You provide the bait, I'll run it and check cams. Free of charge. I had a ton of fun running baits for my wife last year. All of which were very active until the acorns started falling. Then they all went cold. I'd expect this year to be a bit better.


Great offer Doc, Thanks.


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