# Lookout Crossbow!!!



## Jager Pro (Nov 8, 2013)

Midalake said:


> Shoulder mounted railgun !!! Trees....what trees......


I'll take two, make sure it's stainless-steel all weather please


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

Midalake said:


> Shoulder mounted railgun !!! Trees....what trees......


Just pull the trigger and get out the food saver bags....dead and processed one shot.


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

November Sunrise said:


> All one has to do is go to a "traditional shoot" in order to observe the widespread inconsistency of most participants. Most "traditionalists" should stick with targets rather than flinging arrows at game under the guise of it being a "challenge."



All one really has to do is go to a "local archery shop" and watch all the idiots bring in their blown up crossbows. Do you really think a guy with a long bow or recurve goes into the woods without practicing ? Now how many guys buy a crossbow or gun with the scope bore sighted and go out hunting? Quite a few....How many traditional guys will fling arrows past 25yds? Not many if any at all. How many will with a crossbow they have never shot? Quite a few...See it's not that funny when people judge or assume is it???


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

Corey K said:


> All one really has to do is go to a "local archery shop" and watch all the idiots bring in their blown up crossbows. Do you really think a guy with a long bow or recurve goes into the woods without practicing ? Now how many guys buy a crossbow or gun with the scope bore sighted and go out hunting? Quite a few....How many traditional guys will fling arrows past 25yds? Not many if any at all. How many will with a crossbow they have never shot? Quite a few...See it's not that funny when people judge or assume is it???


Traditional guys are fine and we should not be debating their ability's. However if someone was shooting at me and I had too chose a traditional guy at 25yds and a hack at 40 yds with full sighted in and scoped crossbow.........I would choose the traditional guy EVERY time..............


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## kenn1320 (Aug 6, 2004)

November Sunrise said:


> Considering the average longbow shooter can't hit consistently hit an elephant in the rear at 20 yards, I think the zone would be better labeled the "Wing It and Wound Them Region."


 Guess thats why so many compound shooters converted to xbows. Why else would they change to a weapon that is so heavy, hard to move in the trees, loud, yadda yadda yadda. 
I think this new airbow is great, cant wait to see it made legal. It will be great for the children, its not as front heavy, no string to cut off fingers, etc. They can cock it themselves, win win. It will recruit more hunters. We need to stick together under the big tent, we are all hunters. :woohoo1:


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

Midalake said:


> Traditional guys are fine and we should not be debating their ability's. However if someone was shooting at me and I had too chose a traditional guy at 25yds and a hack at 40 yds with full sighted in and scoped crossbow.........I would choose the traditional guy EVERY time..............


RIP


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## N.E. Outdoorsman (Sep 18, 2006)

The gun is storing a huge amount of pressure/energy, which common sense would dictate is sealed off by the arrow shaft, or a wad of some sort. I can't envision how it could be all that quiet. I couldn't gauge the raport from the video.


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## Jager Pro (Nov 8, 2013)

N.E. Outdoorsman said:


> The gun is storing a huge amount of pressure/energy, which common sense would dictate is sealed off by the arrow shaft, or a wad of some sort. I can't envision how it could be all that quiet. I couldn't gauge the raport from the video.


Well bows aren't exactly silent either, but both (I'm assuming) are a lot quieter than firearms.


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

Anyway, it's just another tool for the laziest of the lazy.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Corey K said:


> All one really has to do is go to a "local archery shop" and watch all the idiots bring in their blown up crossbows. Do you really think a guy with a long bow or recurve goes into the woods without practicing ? Now how many guys buy a crossbow or gun with the scope bore sighted and go out hunting? Quite a few....How many traditional guys will fling arrows past 25yds? Not many if any at all. How many will with a crossbow they have never shot? Quite a few...See it's not that funny when people judge or assume is it???


Of course some guys who hunt with recurves or longbows go into the woods without being proficient with their weapon. And of course some of them take ill advised shots.

Choice of weapon is not an indication of a person's character or judgment. Anyone who associates weapon choice with character is just amazingly naïve.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

kenn1320 said:


> Guess thats why so many compound shooters converted to xbows. Why else would they change to a weapon that is so heavy, hard to move in the trees, loud, yadda yadda yadda.
> I think this new airbow is great, cant wait to see it made legal. It will be great for the children, its not as front heavy, no string to cut off fingers, etc. They can cock it themselves, win win. It will recruit more hunters. We need to stick together under the big tent, we are all hunters. :woohoo1:


I'll type slower for you Kenniboy as you seem to be having a hard time keeping up. I was talking about longbows - not compound bows, not crossbows and not airbows. 

And what I said was the average longbow shooter can't consistently hit an elephant in the rear at 20 yards. For anyone who disputes that, just stop by a traditional shoot and just watch how inconsistent the average guy is even on a stationary target at a known distance.


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

November Sunrise said:


> Choice of weapon is not an indication of a person's character or judgment. Anyone who associates weapon choice with character is just amazingly naïve.


Weapon choice or an advantage, what ever makes you feel better!


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## slabstar (Feb 25, 2009)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Anyway, it's just another tool for the laziest of the lazy.


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

The company says that it shoots 2" groups at 45 yards. I can shoot 2" groups at 45 yards with my crossbow--BUT I DON'T! That's because my arrow has lost so much of its speed kinetic energy, I have to aim 4' above the target. 

The first thing that should be established before passing judgment is what speed and how much energy does the arrow possess at various distances. If this thing indeed is traveling anywhere near 450 fps at 45 yards, then this is a quantum leap in archery technology.

Irrespective of whatever those numbers might be, you may like this thing or hate it. That opinion, however, is meaningless within the process of allowing people to hunt with this product. If it is determined that the use of this weapon does not threaten the resource, then _by law_, it must be allowed. That is the precise argument we used in removing the restrictions on crossbows 8 years ago. 

On a lighter note...I see the greatest business risk to this thing is the lighted nock people. I could see owners filling up the holding chamber with a colored air. So now, instead of watching a lighted nock from the back of the arrow, one would have a colored vapor trail from the air-bow all the way to the target--sort of like at an air show or crop duster. Yeah, that's the ticket.


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

From the website:

*SPECIFICATIONS*

_Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) Airbow_

Powered by 3000 psi of compressed air
Integrated pressure regulator delivers 8 consistent shots at 450 FPS
Bullpup configuration, short 33.5” overall length
Ambidextrous top cocking bolt
BONUS: Realtree AP camo decals included
Comes with 3 custom arrows with field tips, 6x40 mm scope, sling and quiver (Pre-order and receive 6 extra arrows)
160 fpe with 375 gr arrows @ 450 FPS


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Anyway, it's just another tool for the laziest of the lazy.


Can I assume you hunt with a self made bow?


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

ART said:


> Can I assume you hunt with a self made bow?



Only so he can explain his lion cloth.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 6, 2004)

November Sunrise said:


> I'll type slower for you Kenniboy as you seem to be having a hard time keeping up. I was talking about longbows - not compound bows, not crossbows and not airbows.
> 
> And what I said was the average longbow shooter can't consistently hit an elephant in the rear at 20 yards. For anyone who disputes that, just stop by a traditional shoot and just watch how inconsistent the average guy is even on a stationary target at a known distance.


No need to slow down for me bossman, I simply agreed the reason we have lost almost half the compound shooters (who converted to the xbow) is as you stated, they cant hit an elephant in the rear at 20yds. I heard over and over again how difficult the xbow was to hunt with and nowhere near the same energy as a compound at 30yds due to the short bolt, blah blah blah. So tell me old wise one, if the xbow is so much harder to use than a compound and not as powerful, what else besides accuracy could explain the switch? Ill tell you why so many are switching, they feel outgunned. Their buddy buys one and is shooting groups out to 60yds that rival the average compound guy at 40yds. They think wow I could kill all kinds of deer with one of those. He says you wanna try it and this guy is stacking arrows with ease and off to the store he goes to get an xbow. Theres nothing hard about it and theres nothing hard about the airbow. As so many have said, why does it have to be hard?

Look at this guy, no doubt first time compound buyers experience the same success.

"I purchased the Barnett Recruit for my 15 yr old son at my local Bass Pro Shop. I did my research best I could via the net before purchase, and the recruit is what I settled on. Assembly was a breeze, the scope isn't high quality but it serves the purpose. Sighted in at 20-40 yards. Chronographed at 302fps with arrows supplied with 100grain tip. Decided I'd take it for a test spin that evening...paired it up with some Lumen-arrows with G5-T3 broadheads (that i also picked up at Bass Pro) dropped a doe at 39 yards...quick, clean, ethical.... Bought the crossbow that day, backstraps that evening...we have also harvested another doe since. I'd recommend any-day!"
http://www.basspro.com/Barnett-Recruit-Crossbow-Package/product/13020205312432/

I shoot ibo and the trad shooters do just fine in my opinion. I see 10 and 12yr old kids shooting compounds at the tournaments that would make most adults look foolish. Hey its about commitment and if you dont want to put in the effort and just go kill something, have at it.


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## GrizzlyHunter (Jun 17, 2005)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Anyway, it's just another tool for the laziest of the lazy.


Ii other words a tool for poachers.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

kenn1320 said:


> No need to slow down for me bossman, I simply agreed the reason we have lost almost half the compound shooters (who converted to the xbow) is as you stated, they cant hit an elephant in the rear at 20yds. I heard over and over again how difficult the xbow was to hunt with and nowhere near the same energy as a compound at 30yds due to the short bolt, blah blah blah. So tell me old wise one, if the xbow is so much harder to use than a compound and not as powerful, what else besides accuracy could explain the switch? Ill tell you why so many are switching, they feel outgunned. Their buddy buys one and is shooting groups out to 60yds that rival the average compound guy at 40yds. They think wow I could kill all kinds of deer with one of those. He says you wanna try it and this guy is stacking arrows with ease and off to the store he goes to get an xbow. Theres nothing hard about it and theres nothing hard about the airbow. As so many have said, why does it have to be hard?


LOL. What type of life must a person have in order to care whether a hunter uses a compound or a crossbow? What's it like going through life in a perpetual tizzy about what weapon someone else uses?

Compounds and crossbows are both easy weapons. Neither requires a meaningful level of skill to become proficient at. And yet there's the endless blathering from some compound users that they're choosing a more "challenging" route. It would be difficult to find a person more lacking in self-awareness than the compound shooter who fancies himself as having chosen a "challenging" path.

On the flip side, I do appreciate the entertainment value you and your ilk have provided over the years. You are a consistent source of amusement Kennyboy.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

GrizzlyHunter said:


> Ii other words a tool for poachers.


Not as efficient a tool as a 22LR. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## kenn1320 (Aug 6, 2004)

November Sunrise said:


> LOL. What type of life must a person have in order to care whether a hunter uses a compound or a crossbow? What's it like going through life in a perpetual tizzy about what weapon someone else uses?
> 
> Compounds and crossbows are both easy weapons. Neither requires a meaningful level of skill to become proficient at. And yet there's the endless blathering from some compound users that they're choosing a more "challenging" route. It would be difficult to find a person more lacking in self-awareness than the compound shooter who fancies himself as having chosen a "challenging" path.
> 
> On the flip side, I do appreciate the entertainment value you and your ilk have provided over the years. You are a consistent source of amusement Kennyboy.


Oh Im all for this new airbow, hope its legal this season. Not sure why so many of you xbow guys care whether its in the archery season or not? Ive said it before, deer season should start Oct 1, hunt with whatever weapon you want. What difference does it make what another hunter chooses to fill his tags with, or whether they are filled in Oct, Nov, Dec?


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

kenn1320 said:


> Guess thats why so many compound shooters converted to xbows. Why else would they change to a weapon that is so heavy, hard to move in the trees, loud, yadda yadda yadda.
> I think this new airbow is great, cant wait to see it made legal. It will be great for the children, its not as front heavy, no string to cut off fingers, etc. They can cock it themselves, win win. It will recruit more hunters. We need to stick together under the big tent, we are all hunters. :woohoo1:


What if liberals claim the new air gun contributes to "man made climate change"? They'll ban it.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Let's make this potato gun legal to. Our deer herd don't have enough projectiles to dodge...Idaho would love it....Mashed or baked?


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

Look guys, use a crossbow if you'd like, ok? But don't tell me you do it bc it's more challenging than using a recurve/long bow/compound, bc it's not. Also, don't tell me its bc you can't be accurate w/ a compound, any monkey can shoot one accurately these days, including Walt. As far as the loin cloth, I save that for the Wife when she wants to get a big one.


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Look guys, use a crossbow if you'd like, ok? But don't tell me you do it bc it's more challenging than using a recurve/long bow/compound, bc it's not. Also, don't tell me its bc you can't be accurate w/ a compound, any monkey can shoot one accurately these days, including Walt. As far as the loin cloth, I save that for the Wife when she wants to get a big one.


My reason was because it was cool, or different....not for the reasons above or because I am::::::


Walt Donaldson said:


> Anyway, it's just another tool for the laziest of the lazy.


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

Well, if you have a physical limitation that's a different story and the crossbow has always been there for those that do. Walt is cool with all that jazz, ok?


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

If you got a tag, I don't put a lot of though into what you choice to hunt with.


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

If I were the company making this product, the first thing I would do is dump the videos of Jim Shockey killing the buffalo. First, he always dresses like he just coming out of wrestling match that he lost--convincingly. Second, his voice of a monotone pitch that he sounds like a monk reciting Gregorian chants. 

More importantly though is the killing of that animal. I mean, there is something to be said about fair chase. But, in order to be fair, you have to chase. That latter component is missing in these clips. Was that video filmed at a petting zoo? Heck, that was like shooting a parked 1997 Buick Road-master at 10 yards.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Riva said:


> If I were the company making this product, the first thing I would do is dump the videos of Jim Shockey killing the buffalo. First, he always dresses like he just coming out of wrestling match that he lost--convincingly. Second, his voice of a monotone pitch that he sounds like a monk reciting Gregorian chants.
> 
> More importantly though is the killing of that animal. I mean, there is something to be said about fair chase. But, in order to be fair, you have to chase. That latter component is missing in these clips. Was that video filmed at a petting zoo? Heck, that was like shooting a parked 1997 Buick Road-master at 10 yards.


Haters gonna hate!
Thought I would be the first, Riva.
Carry on.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Look guys, use a crossbow if you'd like, ok? But don't tell me you do it bc it's more challenging than using a recurve/long bow/compound, bc it's not. Also, don't tell me its bc you can't be accurate w/ a compound, any monkey can shoot one accurately these days, including Walt. .


Agree - crossbows and compounds are both easy weapons to use. But those who are fond of the "challenge" claim are invariably compound users.

Particularly vulnerable to illusions of weapon greatness are young men. Young men are the demographic most prone to being product fanboys - whenever I see a pickup truck with hunting decals plastered across the back window I know there's a great likelihood the owner is under the age of 35. And young men are still at the point of life where they place high value on the opinions of others. Much of what they do and talk about is out of concern for how they'll be perceived. 

History shows that as the anti-crossbow youngsters mature and wisen up many of them change their tune. On this forum alone there are plenty of guys who were once obstructionists to crossbow legalization that are now using the weapon themselves. One of the benefits of getting older is you gain perspective and come to understand that much of what you were passionate about as a young person was actually irrelevant in light of life's more important priorities.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Well, if you have a physical limitation that's a different story and the crossbow has always been there for those that do. Walt is cool with all that jazz, ok?


The driving reason why crossbows are legal for all in MI is because at one time the requirements to get a disability permit were excessively rigid. In response the DNR launched a task force to reestablish new guidelines and the representatives of Michigan Bow Hunters on the task force put great energy into making the restrictions even tighter. When the MBH reps attempted to screw those with disabilities the crossbow inclusion for all movement was launched.

That was years ago, and by now crossbows would be legal in MI anyway, but it would have taken a good number of years longer to occur if the MBH boys hadn't shot themselves in the foot by their shameful conduct in that committee.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Riva said:


> Was that video filmed at a petting zoo? Heck, that was like shooting a parked 1997 Buick Road-master at 10 yards.


Indeed. And his feigned shock and amazement at the "performance" of the weapon was also entertaining.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Riva said:


> If I were the company making this product, the first thing I would do is dump the videos of Jim Shockey killing the buffalo. First, he always dresses like he just coming out of wrestling match that he lost--convincingly. Second, his voice of a monotone pitch that he sounds like a monk reciting Gregorian chants.
> 
> More importantly though is the killing of that animal. I mean, there is something to be said about fair chase. But, in order to be fair, you have to chase. That latter component is missing in these clips. Was that video filmed at a petting zoo? Heck, that was like shooting a parked 1997 Buick Road-master at 10 yards.


I have to agree. It came across I am going to shoot this buffallo just to show you what it can do. I think it would have been better filmed from a blind. I am sure there was more to it though.


November Sunrise said:


> Particularly vulnerable to illusions of weapon greatness are young men. Young men are the demographic most prone to being product fanboyss.


Just yesterday, I heard millenials are not brand loyal. They like to tr different stuff. Which is a problem for marketers.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

What meets peoples definition of archery or anything other then gun season? I lean pretty hard to it is a single shot with limited range. We let bow hunters do alot more because of that. They could hunt from a platform before gun people, camo, and take a doe.

This gun? I think is really what people with disabilities need, very easy to load. Though I don't know if it should be limited to disabilities.

You got one tag to fill. Does it make a difference how you charge the arrow?


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

If there is one thing that is virtually impossible to do with a crossbow is to stalk in a tall cornfield. This thing eliminates that issue. 

Insofar as I do not have a cornfield and my neighbors really frown on people in their corn, I guess this becomes a moot issue. So now, I'm going to be out $850 for the airbow and another $50,000 to buy a cornfield. They don't put that anywhere in their advertising, do they?


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## Rasputin (Jan 13, 2009)

Riva said:


> If there is one thing that is virtually impossible to do with a crossbow is to stalk in a tall cornfield. This thing eliminates that issue.
> 
> Insofar as I do not have a cornfield and my neighbors really frown on people in their corn, I guess this becomes a moot issue. So now, I'm going to be out $850 for the airbow and another $50,000 to buy a cornfield. They don't put that anywhere in their advertising, do they?


$850? What about the compressor you need to make 3000psi? Yikes!


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Rasputin said:


> $850? What about the compressor you need to make 3000psi? Yikes!


Looked like you hook it up to a bottle. They don't make 3000 psi air compressors.


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

Rasputin said:


> $850? What about the compressor you need to make 3000psi? Yikes!



Compressor?

I was unaware that that this thing was gender-specific. I've been telling my wife for 35 years that this (?) is 3,000 psi!


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## boomer_x7 (Dec 19, 2008)

Rasputin said:


> $850? What about the compressor you need to make 3000psi? Yikes!


you can buy a 3000psi hand pump for $100


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## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

November Sunrise said:


> If the claim is that a crossbow makes a hunter more likely to succeed, then there would be substantive differences in success rates. Fact is there aren't substantive differences.
> 
> More importantly, if a crossbow leads to higher success rates, that would suggest the weapon itself leads to more consistently killing deer. Which would mean compound users more consistently wound and don't recover deer.
> The question then becomes, "Why is the category of archers that are most prone to wounding and not recovering deer also the category of archers that are most prone to worrying about what weapon others use?"
> ...


Just stop already.


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

further thought....

If I were the president of this company, I would abandon the word airbow altogether, because it is not a bow. What they are trying to do is define the "category" whereas they should be leveraging the product. Why? Because every other company that comes down the pike with their version of an "airbow". And, if they are made legal during archery seasons, you can bet your farm that there will be a zillion makers coming forward with their version of an airbow.

Do you remember when an obscure Canadian company introduced a snowmobile by the same of Ski-do. For decades, people used their brand name to describe the product in general. The word Ski-do and snowmobile were interchangeable. Think Kleenex (bathroom tissue). Think Band-Aid (small bandages). Somebody owns these brands. 

Screw the "category". Leverage a brand. 

Now....here's a contest.....come up with a handle for this product that describes it both as a category as well as a brand name. And YOU CAN NOT USE THE WORD_* "BOW" *_anywhere in its description. 

And one last thing...get rid of Shockey!


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I agree, Jim has to go. But what about his daughter ? I would think her in a bikini would do wonders for sales of the air thinga majiggy.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Walt Donaldson said:


> The only time I thump my chest is when I am chasing the Wife around the house with my loin cloth on.
> 
> The thing that mystifies me is the length at which you go to try and prove your point, whatever that may be. You're the one that is portraying yourself as superior because you aren't a fanboy, chest-thumper, deer wounder, etc etc. I said crossbows are easier to shoot, I stand by that. If you don't agree, that's fine, but remember, every time you slam "compound users", understand that you are a "compound user", so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Or however that goes, my Dad says it all the time and I just roll my eyes at him.
> 
> ...


When bowhunting groups and individuals lobbied against crossbow inclusion, they were effectively working to keep some people out of the woods, most specifically young and old hunters. They advocated for a sanctimonious, "our way is superior" approach. Their advocacy persisted in spite of indisputable evidence from other states that crossbow inclusion did not threaten archery season lengths, did not lead to higher success rates, etc. If they had their way today they would go back and change the regs, and thus effectively eliminate opportunities for many hunters, such as my younger children.

As a result, I don't consider the anti crossbow gang to be on my team in any sense of the word. I in fact consider their stance to be indefensible and at every opportunity I like to engage with and push back against their viewpoint. 

I don't criticize anyone for the weapon they choose, unless they are attempting to proclaim their weapon as a superior choice, and then in that case I have no problem exposing their hypocrisy. Matter of fact, I enjoy engaging with all the vertical bow chest thumpers, as I find their most of their claims to be highly amusing.


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

That sure is a crooked angle your taking now, your honestly saying that people didn't want kids, seniors, and women hunting? You have ran out of ideas to bash or engage, or is it just me? Seeing people aided by the use of crossbows that need the aid is awesome, who wouldn't be for that?


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## Jager Pro (Nov 8, 2013)

Idk what teams you guys are talking about. The only team I'm on is the one that opposes HSUS and PeTA. Also this reminds me to check my team's MS deer hunting thread, I haven't received any emails in a few weeks *oops*


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

Corey K said:


> That sure is a crooked angle your taking now, your honestly saying that people didn't want kids, seniors, and women hunting? You have ran out of ideas to bash or engage, or is it just me? Seeing people aided by the use of crossbows that need the aid is awesome, who wouldn't be for that?


The Michigan Bowhunter's Association; that's who! The Michigan Bowhunter's Association opposed lowering the legal age to hunt, with ANY weapon (including crossbows.)

They opposed the initiative to allow seniors to hunt with a crossbow when they reached a certain age threshold (65?). 

Even more shamefully, they supported a platform to make the criteria that would allow a person with a disability to obtain a crossbow permit to even more stringent than they already were. And, Michigan's disability criteria was already the MOST stringent in the entire country. That's when I decided to get involved.

At the end of the day, their motives had nothing with youth hunting. It had nothing to do with disability criteria. It had nothing to do with allowing seniors the right to use a crossbow when he/she reach a certain age threshold. That was all a facade. It was much more simple than that, however, they would/could never admit to it.

What is was REALLY about was minimizing competition from other hunters. More specifically: they were fighting to keep people out of what they perversely considered to be "their woods, hunting their deer, during their season."

Some really smart and some really dedicated people worked really hard to abort the MBH agenda. They prevailed and Michigan is a better place as a result.


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

Ok thanks Riva, I'm sorry I wasn't up to date on that, thanks for the information.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Exactly, and don't forget MUCC was right in their back pocket, despite almost 60% of their members supporting full inclusion.


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## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

Riva said:


> The Michigan Bowhunter's Association; that who! The Michigan Bowhunter's Association opposed lowering the legal age to hunt, with ANY weapon (including crossbows.)
> 
> They opposed the initiative to allow seniors to hunt with a crossbow when they reached a certain age threshold (65?).
> 
> ...


Sounds like how our country is now.


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

Riva said:


> Some really smart and some really dedicated people worked really hard to abort the MBH agenda. They prevailed and Michigan is a better place as a result.


Hallelujah......now bring on the Airbow!!!

I like the video of Jim Shockey showing what the Airbow can do to a Buffalo. Would you rather see Mike Rowe shoot a dead cow carcass at the meat market?


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## Riva (Aug 10, 2006)

RMH said:


> Hallelujah......now bring on the Airbow!!!
> 
> I like the video of Jim Shockey showing what the Airbow can do to a Buffalo. Would you rather see Mike Rowe shoot a dead cow carcass at the meat market?


I don't know who Mike Rowe is, however, if he wants to shoot and film something that is already dead, I supposed he will have to address the scrutiny that is sure to emerge from his odd behavior. Sorry, yours is a bad analogy.

What we're talking about here is a television personality being filmed in a production sequence in order to leverage his celebrity status (questionable) to give credence to, and in doing so, subliminally suggesting to endorse the product. BIG STRETCH, IMHO.

Here are my questions to you...

- Do you believe that this scene was filmed in a "fair chase" environment? (inside and/or outside of a "fence")

- Do you think this kill was filmed inside a fence (be honest)?

- Do you think that the same performance, features and benefits of this weapon could have been conveyed to the viewing public by simply shooting at an archery target versus the killing of that buffalo? (if you agree, why the hell would you need Jim Shockey?)

- Do you believe that the "celebrity", Jim Shockey, was the person killing that buffalo would have anything to do with your consideration surrounding whether to purchase this product or not?

As I said, if these people want to go one inch with this product from a consumer consideration and sales perspective, they have to dump these videos NOW, otherwise, this product is doomed!


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Corey K said:


> That sure is a crooked angle your taking now, your honestly saying that people didn't want kids, seniors, and women hunting? You have ran out of ideas to bash or engage, or is it just me? Seeing people aided by the use of crossbows that need the aid is awesome, who wouldn't be for that?


Me explaining history is a crooked angle? 

Every bow hunting group in Michigan testified at NRC meetings in opposition to crossbows being legal during archery season. MUCC testified in opposition. Many individuals also testified. This forum was filled with guys who argued against inclusion of crossbows in archery season.


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

November Sunrise said:


> Me explaining history is a crooked angle?
> 
> Every bow hunting group in Michigan testified at NRC meetings in opposition to crossbows being legal during archery season. MUCC testified in opposition. Many individuals also testified. This forum was filled with guys who argued against inclusion of crossbows in archery season.


Fair enough, I'm not a member of any club btw. I would have more gray hair than I have now if I looked back and read all previous info.


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

Riva said:


> I don't know who Mike Rowe is, however, if he wants to shoot and film something that is already dead, I supposed he will have to address the scrutiny that is sure to emerge from his odd behavior. Sorry, yours is a bad analogy.
> 
> What we're talking about here is a television personality being filmed in a production sequence in order to leverage his celebrity status (questionable) to give credence to, and in doing so, subliminally suggesting to endorse the product. BIG STRETCH, IMHO.
> 
> ...


1. It's a Buffalo, many buffalo hunts can be similar to hunting cattle. But to answer your question it was not "fair chase" IMO.

So what, I believe the video proves the weapon worthy as a big game tool. Buffalo have huge ribs not easy to penetrate out of the North American big game animals.

2. I believe the kill was inside a fence. What does either 1 or 2 have to do with showing the Airgun capabilities?

3. Nope. And that why I used Mike Rowe as an example. He hosts a show called Dirty Jobs. They could have very well had him test the thing out, but why? Where would that get them?

4. Jim Shockey is a "celebrity" hunter and people will buy things that he endorses. There is a reason why Nike paid Michael Jordon millions to where their shoes. Me personally, I am going to wait until you, Farmlegend and Pier Pressure to buy one.

Maybe Dan and you can sing us a parody!!!:evil:


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

cakebaker said:


> Sounds like how our country is now.


It definitely did break down along political lines. You had those with apparently socialistic leanings attempting to make crossbow use available only to those who received governmental approval. Only if a person was disabled enough to get governmental approval could a person use the weapon.

Then you had the patriotic, free market approach of people should be able to use whatever bow they want. Thankfully the freedom for all approach worked out.

Unfortunately, those who want to suck on the government teat still can’t help but reminisce about the good old days when hunters were unnecessarily restricted. Some people are just better suited for a nanny state.


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## vsmorgantown (Jan 16, 2012)

November Sunrise said:


> If the claim is that a crossbow makes a hunter more likely to succeed, then there would be substantive differences in success rates. Fact is there aren't substantive differences.
> 
> More importantly, if a crossbow leads to higher success rates, that would suggest the weapon itself leads to more consistently killing deer. Which would mean compound users more consistently wound and don't recover deer.
> The question then becomes, "Why is the category of archers that are most prone to wounding and not recovering deer also the category of archers that are most prone to worrying about what weapon others use?"
> ...


The reason there isn't a substantive difference is because a lot of crossbow hunters took up bow hunting because of the crossbow and they never were successful with a vertical bow either. I would venture to guess that the, majority, of successful crossbow hunters were also successful vertical bow hunters before switching over, such as my two eldest brothers. They switched over because of shoulder issues and they are getting older but trust me they have no misconceptions as to which weapon is easier for them to kill a deer with. They know it and aren't ashamed to admit it. I, for now, am blessed with my health and will use my vertical bow as long as physically possible, hopefully for many more years. But when the time comes I will gladly buy a crossbow and be proud to use it because it's keeping me in the woods! I do not admonish anyone for using one but there is no doubt they are easier to kill a deer with versus a compound.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

vsmorgantown said:


> The reason there isn't a substantive difference is because a lot of crossbow hunters took up bow hunting because of the crossbow and they never were successful with a vertical bow either. I would venture to guess that the, majority, of successful crossbow hunters were also successful vertical bow hunters before switching over, such as my two eldest brothers. They switched over because of shoulder issues and they are getting older but trust me they have no misconceptions as to which weapon is easier for them to kill a deer with. They know it and aren't ashamed to admit it. I, for now, am blessed with my health and will use my vertical bow as long as physically possible, hopefully for many more years. But when the time comes I will gladly buy a crossbow and be proud to use it because it's keeping me in the woods! I do not admonish anyone for using one but there is no doubt they are easier to kill a deer with versus a compound.


Crossbow use is driven more by age than any other factor. Ohio has 30+ years of data. 95% of deer killed in archery season by 10 year olds are with a crossbow. By the time those same hunters reach their early 20's it will tilt about 70%-30% towards vertical bows. The numbers begin to shift again around age 40, where the splits become about equal. When it comes to those 60 and over it's over 90% crossbows.

Theories abound as to why success rates are similar but the simple fact is about 30-35% of both vertical and crossbow users tag a deer in any given year.


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)




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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Here's one for what it's worth..My 72 yr father bought his first crossbow last year for some obvious reasons...He's older and it's easier to shoot...(Not to carry though)..He was a stringent compound shooter for years but has not shot a deer with it since 1998...Oct 1 last year first time out ever with his new crossbow, he shoots an 8 pt....There are some obvious conclusions here other than he loves his crossbow!


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/68802.html

What do you think of these rules in New York November?


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Take it easy guys or strike will be handed out.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Corey K said:


> http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/68802.html
> 
> What do you think of these rules in New York November?


New York is following the same template as other states have in progressing towards full inclusion. 

In MI the first step was crossbows for those who met a high disability threshold. Then crossbows became legal for all during firearm season. Then the disability regs were looked at again. Eventually the push for full inclusion kicked in when the chairman of the House Recreation department started looking for ways to increase hunter numbers, as he was alarmed that the state had lost 100,000 bowhunters since the late 90's. 

New York is in the midst of that process. All state game departments are aware of the need for full inclusion of crossbows to help thwart the tide of decreasing hunter recruitment and retention, but it often takes those departments 5+ years to move the process along to full inclusion.


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## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

sniper said:


> Here's one for what it's worth..My 72 yr father bought his first crossbow last year for some obvious reasons...He's older and it's easier to shoot...(Not to carry though)..He was a stringent compound shooter for years but has not shot a deer with it since 1998...Oct 1 last year first time out ever with his new crossbow, he shoots an 8 pt....There are some obvious conclusions here other than he loves his crossbow!


Exactly.


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

November Sunrise said:


> New York is following the same template as other states have in progressing towards full inclusion.
> 
> In MI the first step was crossbows for those who met a high disability threshold. Then crossbows became legal for all during firearm season. Then the disability regs were looked at again. Eventually the push for full inclusion kicked in when the chairman of the House Recreation department started looking for ways to increase hunter numbers, as he was alarmed that the state had lost 100,000 bowhunters since the late 90's.
> 
> New York is in the midst of that process. All state game departments are aware of the need for full inclusion of crossbows to help thwart the tide of decreasing hunter recruitment and retention, but it often takes those departments 5+ years to move the process along to full inclusion.



This has to be a money maker from the Non Resident license sales too? I heard from a group of guys that get drawn every year in another state this past season was the 1st time they didn't get drawn, so obviously the Non Resident tag sales went up with Crossbows being legal for Archery Season.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Corey K said:


> This has to be a money maker from the Non Resident license sales too? I heard from a group of guys that get drawn every year in another state this past season was the 1st time they didn't get drawn, so obviously the Non Resident tag sales went up with Crossbows being legal for Archery Season.


I might have misread the New York regs, but if it is the case in NY that crossbows are not yet legal in archery season there, I doubt there would be an impact on license sales of any type.

Only state I'm aware of where crossbows are legal during all of archery season and where there is a limit on non-resident tags is Kansas. Crossbow inclusion may or may not have impacted their non - resident demand. Correlation does not necessarily indicate causation.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 6, 2004)

So are we going to talk about the airbow, or is the crossbow crowd going to keep patting themselves on the back for full inclusion? 
Mi deer surveys show the xbow hunters are on average 5% more successful statewide, and in their first year were 10% more successful in the slp. Would the airbow hunters be anymore successful than the crossbow hunters? Would there be any negative impact on the deer herd if the airbow was legal in archery?


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2014)

kenn1320 said:


> So are we going to talk about the airbow, or is the crossbow crowd going to keep patting themselves on the back for full inclusion?
> Mi deer surveys show the xbow hunters are on average 5% more successful statewide, and in their first year were 10% more successful in the slp. Would the airbow hunters be anymore successful than the crossbow hunters? Would there be any negative impact on the deer herd if the airbow was legal in archery?


How detrimental to the herd was crossbows? are whitetails on the endangered list because of them?


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## hk_sl8 (Oct 24, 2011)

Woodstock said:


> How detrimental to the herd was crossbows? are whitetails on the endangered list because of them?


"Not much" and "no" are the answers to your questions. 

Question is, is it an "archery" weapon to which I would say no but that is what the powers that be will have to decide at some point.


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2014)

hk_sl8 said:


> "Not much" and "no" are the answers to your questions.
> 
> Question is, is it an "archery" weapon to which I would say no but that is what the powers that be will have to decide at some point.


*Archery*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Archery* is the sport, practice or skill of using a bow to propel arrows. The word comes from the Latin_arcus_. Historically, archery has been used for hunting and combat. In modern times, it is mainly a competitive sport and recreational activity. A person who participates in archery is typically called an _archer_ or a _bowman_, and a person who is fond of or an expert at archery is sometimes called a *toxophilite*


Webster's definition

*archery*
play
_noun_ ar·chery \ˈär-chə-rē\
*Simple Definition of archery*
Popularity: Bottom 30% of words

: the sport or skill of shooting with a bow and arrow




Look under the definition of bow and you'll find "crossbow"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_and_arrow


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## hk_sl8 (Oct 24, 2011)

Woodstock said:


> *Archery*
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *Archery* is the sport, practice or skill of...


I don't feel the "bow" portion of the definition is met therefore disqualifying from consideration as well as not rising to the spirit of what is intended by having an archery season. I didn't know an archery enthusiast was known as a taxophilite, though, so thanks for posting that. 

Before I'm attacked as such, I've never argued against crossbows beyond expressing my personal disinterest in them. I really don't care if others choose them over a conventional bow.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 6, 2004)

Woodstock said:


> How detrimental to the herd was crossbows? are whitetails on the endangered list because of them?


Guess I dont have that answer. They arent allowed late season in the UP, and now we are seeing a push to eliminate the doe option in archery in the NLP. Ive been hunting for over 30yrs, truly enjoyed that option, and this is the first time Ive heard mention of eliminating it. Many in the state are upset with lack of deer. Would the airbow make matters worse, or would going to a doe permit only system make the weapon of choice irrelevant?


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2014)

hk_sl8 said:


> I don't feel the "bow" portion of the definition is met therefore disqualifying from consideration as well as not rising to the spirit of what is intended by having an archery season. I didn't know an archery enthusiast was known as a taxophilite, though, so thanks for posting that.
> 
> Before I'm attacked as such, I've never argued against crossbows beyond expressing my personal disinterest in them. I really don't care if others choose them over a conventional bow.


Look under the definition of bow and you'll find "crossbow"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_and_arrow


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2014)

kenn1320 said:


> Guess I dont have that answer. They arent allowed late season in the UP, and now we are seeing a push to eliminate the doe option in archery in the NLP. Ive been hunting for over 30yrs, truly enjoyed that option, and this is the first time Ive heard mention of eliminating it. Many in the state are upset with lack of deer. Would the airbow make matters worse, or would going to a doe permit only system make the weapon of choice irrelevant?


It caused low populations in the U.P. and NLP?

Maybe it's responsible for the Market in China and unrest in the MIddle east?

Many may be upset but the bow had little to do with any of it. 
Did the crossbow cause sever winters? reintroduce wolves? allow excessive antlerless harvest?


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## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

Woodstock said:


> *Archery*
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *Archery* is the sport, practice or skill of using a bow to propel arrows. The word comes from the Latin_arcus_. Historically, archery has been used for hunting and combat. In modern times, it is mainly a competitive sport and recreational activity. A person who participates in archery is typically called an _archer_ or a _bowman_, and a person who is fond of or an expert at archery is sometimes called a *toxophilite*
> ...


A crossbow propels a bolt, therefore it is a gun.


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2014)

cakebaker said:


> A crossbow propels a bolt, therefore it is a gun.


You don't read so good. As posted above:

Look under the definition of bow and you'll find "crossbow"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_and_arrow


If it is a gun, why is it allowed during our archery season?


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## kenn1320 (Aug 6, 2004)

Woodstock said:


> You don't read so good. As posted above:
> 
> Look under the definition of bow and you'll find "crossbow"
> 
> ...


I believe it was allowed because a group pushed for it and it wouldnt have a detrimental impact on the herd. Prior to that groups push as you know it was not allowed. You guys can argue definitions of a bow, but the NRC only has to see it pushes an arrow down range and isnt any better than whats currently allowed.


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## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

Woodstock said:


> You don't read so good. As posted above:
> 
> Look under the definition of bow and you'll find "crossbow"
> 
> ...


Do me a favor and draw back your crossbow when a buck is approaching your stand. GL


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

Woodstock said:


> You don't read so good. As posted above:
> 
> Look under the definition of bow and you'll find "crossbow"
> 
> ...


I see you received your masters degree from Google University. Congratulations, you can log onto the world wide web, even copy and paste text. No doubt if it's on the internet, it's complete fact. Look under the definition of Woodstock and you'll see drugs. #DrWikipedia #think4yourself #Waltswizdom


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

It's funny to see all the crossgun fanboys get all fussy when someone calls their weapon of choice "easy". NS says "I use a crossbow and compound"...........more like, I used a compound until they allowed the crossgun, now I use that because it's easier.


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## hk_sl8 (Oct 24, 2011)

Woodstock said:


> Look under the definition of bow and you'll find "crossbow"
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_and_arrow


Woodstock, sorry for the confusion (which my wording contributed to). After answering your rhetoricals about the crossbow, I transitioned to sharing my thoughts on the category the airbow falls into and its fit into the spirit of an "archery season."

I wasn't explicit in stating which device I was referring to. My bad.


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## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

A crossbow is a preloaded weapon therefore it is a gun.


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## cakebaker (Sep 13, 2011)

Only allow crossbows during gun season and see where the xbow crowd is then. That's all I have for opinions thanks everyone.


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2014)

cakebaker said:


> A crossbow is a preloaded weapon therefore it is a gun.


Any third party opinions to support your opinion?


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Walt Donaldson said:


> It's funny to see all the crossgun fanboys get all fussy when someone calls their weapon of choice "easy". NS says "I use a crossbow and compound"...........more like, I used a compound until they allowed the crossgun, now I use that because it's easier.


Walt, Walt, Walt. You and I are have been singing out of the same song book - they're both easy weapons.

If I'm looking to "challenge" myself it will be related to selectivity of what buck to shoot. There isn't any weapon I use - compound, crossbow, shotgun, or muzzleloader, where I find the weapon itself to be challenging. I just don't see how an experienced hunter could keep a straight face if they claim that hunting with a compound bow provides some type of meaningful challenge.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

There aught to be a rule that if you contribute 2 or more "beating a dead horse" posts that result in a thread getting closed.... you get a strike... 
Next topic
<----<<<


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