# Evening Toms



## byronbaitskimmer (Jan 31, 2005)

i know that a lot of turkey hunters think that if they dont have a bird down by 10am that they might as well give it up until the next morning. then there are the guys who do stick it out for the afternoon and see the birds coming back to the fields to feed in the evening. what i wonder is how many of you stick it out in the roost area and wait for the birds to return to the trees. before michigan eliminated the 4pm cutoff it seemed like there were no turkeys alive until 4:05. has anyone else noticed a difference in the way that turkeys have reacted to hunting pressure later in the day. i myself am a firm believer in finding the roosting areas and just waiting. it feels more like deer hunting because i dont use calls(it seems to alert the birds to a strange presence) but i have been rewarded four years in a row for being patient. it goes to note that i have morning hunted these same birds every year in the morning with calls and without and had limited success in even getting birds to be interested in my decoys let alone provide a kill shot. anyone else have the same findings???


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

I have taken Turkeys at 1pm, I usually stay out all day, But I will change locations often. Have never taken one later in the day though.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

How can I say this nicely...well...

One of the reasons the MWTHA has lobbyed long and loud, only to be ignored, about limiting the hunting hours to no later than 6 p.m., is because of scenarios like the one described.

It is not supposed to be about killing turkeys. Anyone can do that, the close extermination of the wild turkey in this country proved that 100 years ago, and yes, hunting the roost location is a good way to do it. It is supposed to be about the quality of the hunt, and these days, I notice that is left to interpretation more and more often. 

To me, it is about calling the bird, luring him in against his better instincts, meeting him one on one in his own world, on his terms, challenging him. 

You're not doing that when you hunt the roost. Yes, stalking or ambushing birds is legal in Michigan (it isn't in several other states)...but is it ethical...With that, I'll shut my mouth. 

I've killed birds at 3 in the afternoon that came to a call. In fact, it was my biggest gobbler ever. Taken three days before the end of the season, May 27 or something like that, in 1998.


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## byronbaitskimmer (Jan 31, 2005)

LINDA G

i never said anything about the kill being the most important thing i was only asking if anyone had expanded their time to enjoy turkey hunting by using the alloted time. i dont see mass slaughters of turkeys anywhere in our future and as long as turkeys continue to expand their range and become almost commonplace to see standing in the fields then we as turkey hunters will again become the primary managers for them. i hunt mostly in allegan county on private land where many farmers see turkeys almost as a pest. i have personally seen the devastation a large flock of turkeys can do on a winter wheat field in the springtime. if it puts me in the wrong to make sure that i fill my take with a tastey gobbler then i apologize but as long as i am allowed to utilize every minute i will continue to do so.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

In this day and age where no one has the time to dedicate to a hunt, where no one wants to take the time needed to dedicate to a hunt, your response is very typical of how more and more people think today...

But, basically, yes, if you can't find other birds that are more cooperative, wait and try again tomorrow. At least, that's what I do. If you end up going a season without a bird, so be it. They beat you at the game. There is no rule that says you have to win every time out. 

And I'm not watching too many shows on OLN, it sounds like you are, because only on TV do we kill a bird every time we go out. 

As for where it shows the proper way to hunt a bird, again, there's lots of material out there about this subject.

Byron-if the birds in Allegan County are being destructive, then you should get involved with a local conservation organization and make contact with the farmers to assist them, whether that be by providing more habitat plantings, an artificial winter feed program, or whatever it takes. Killing a gobbler every year doesn't do anything to help with problems like that. 

I knew I would get a lot of flak on this, particularly from the younger hunters, but that's the way I feel, and I know a lot of other people agree with me. If you can live with yourself, fine.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I have called birds in, busted the roost in the morning and called them back, waited in a thunderstorm near their roost as they fed back to it and so on. All of these birds were great hunts and they were all different but memorable. If you are hunting birds in the late season that have been pressured for over a month they will not cooperate as they would on the opener so you adjust your tactics (as you would if a buck was busting you every time out) That is what makes turkey and other hunting so great because the same old tactics do not always work and you must make adjustments to bag the tom. The one I shot near the roost was the most work I had ever done to get a tom. I called moved ran crawled etc for days after this big boy and he always busted me until I waited in the thunderstorm on my belley on the edge of a bean field for 2 hours in the mud hoping he would arrive. Well he did with two other toms and eight hens and I shot him from the prone postion as he was only 5 yards away! That is the closest and the most exciting hunt for turkey for me so far so I say adjust and have fun and get the bird in a legal manner.

AW


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

If you hunt roost sites chances are your pressuring the birds.
Maybe not the first time but after a few hunters spook them off or force the birds to roost elsewhere, they are pressured.
If roost site are few and far between in areas they can become easier prey or vunerable to weather etc.
Many duck and goose hunters can tell you why not to hunt roosting areas.

I didn't take a bird last year but I still had fun hunting them.
Today the kill seems to motivate many, in fact I know many who use illegal methods so they can say they killed a bird.
Yes I call the RAP line and Yes they are being watched.

Turkey hunting can be many things to people.
To me it's a one on one challenge and a chance to challenge myself against the bird on his turf.
I like calling and hunting away from roosting areas, but that's my choice.


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## SLIPBOBBER (Feb 7, 2005)

I LOOK FORWARD TO TURKEY HUNTING EVERY YEAR. JUST ABOUT AS MUCH AS I ENJOY EATING MY *KILL* ON THANKSGIVING.

I SAY AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT DOING ANY THING ILLEGAL THAN GO FOR IT.

IF WHAT YOU ARE DOING WORKS, WHY TRY TO FIX IT?


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## byronbaitskimmer (Jan 31, 2005)

LindaG

i have hunted many an evening and have never witnessed these "blind-folded" toms that you speak of. as many times as i have had success in the evening i probably have been busted twice that many times by a wary toms eyes. my experiences are not one where i went out the first day sat down at a roost and waved a magic wand and turkeys appeared. i put in my time scouting to find which tree i need to be at and when. during the week i can not hunt mornings which i prefer because toms are vocal and easy to locate.weekends i hunt mornings and if nothing materializes of the hunt i know i might still have a chance later. i first learned this method when i got my dad into turkey hunting. for three days we hunted exclusively in the morning. setting up with decoys in the toms strutting zone and calling different ways. each day we were unsuccessful. on the last day of his season we put in an all dayer and set up where we thought the toms would come through. without ever putting the striker to the slate he was rewarded with a nice mature tom. since then this method has been very successful for over called and pressured birds and that is why i use it. i guess us younger hunters just learn to adapt quicker and use other methods to increase our odds


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Put this last post of yours somewhere safe where you'll find it in 20 years...I bet you'll get a good laugh out of it then. 

In fact, the whole thread. 

My, you guys are defensive... 

You know, folks, there's a lot of things in life that are legal...that doesn't always make them right. 

Have a great day, hope you enjoy your turkey season.


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## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

One of the best ways to get a big gobbler that is "henned" up is wait until the hens leave him in the late morning or early afternoon. He will be all alone and more reseptive to a lone hen. Hens breed in the morning, set their nest untill late afternoon and then head back to the roost tree. A Tom will start to gobble again in the late afternoon to gather his hens for the roost. I am not sure if waiting be a roost tree is bad form or not. I have never realy done it. I have sat between the gobbler and his roosting tree and got him to come charging to a few yelps and goobles. He was not happy about another goobler heading to his tree with his hens..LOL


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## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

Linda G. said:


> Put this last post of yours somewhere safe where you'll find it in 20 years...I bet you'll get a good laugh out of it then.
> 
> In fact, the whole thread.
> 
> ...


Linda, not trying to get into this whole arguement thing with y'all, but don't you think using a dog to fall turkey hunt (which I know you are ok with) could fit into your "there's a lot of things in life that are legal...that doesn't always make them right." statement ?


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

You've got to know how fall turkey hunting with a dog is done...it makes it more sporting than stalking or ambushing a flock, and undoubtedly shooting into that flock...the dog is only used to scatter the flock, then you call the birds back, one at a time. The dog isn't even in the picture when you do that.

So it's still you against the bird...

Hey sprig, I think you like to take shots at people when you don't have a better answer...you've done a lot of that in this thread.


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## DuckMan (Jan 18, 2000)

Chill out guys. You are being a bit over sensitive. I don't think Linda was bashing you or your methods, just giving her opinion of why you probably want to re-think hunting the evenings. It is an opportunity to take a look at what you are doing to see if there is a better way. She was even polite.

This will only be my second year turkey hunting but I have been a duck hunter MANY more years so I can speak to trout's comments on hunting roosts. Good duck hunters avoid hunting roosts in the evening or the next day's hunt will be nothing. Too much hunting in the evening will kill off an area for weeks until the migrants arrive. I can see the correlation with hunting turkey roosts. So I get between the food and roost, or directly in the food area and usually see birds and call them in. Sounds like a good plan to me.

BTW, I still consider myself one of those young hunters out there, but I do seek out the hunt more than the harvest.

Good luck.


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## SLIPBOBBER (Feb 7, 2005)

i'm no turkey guide or anything so when i get a chance to hunt i need to make the most of it. the birds that i hunt are not going to be chased day after day like waterfowl would. and from my experiece there is no change in behavior from one year to another. the birds i pattern are not roosting in the same tree every night but they tend to stay in the same typical area on a steep ridge edged by a swamp. there is still quite a bit of luck in getting the tom to come by close enough for a shot. i didnt know that turkey hunting had a "right" way and if it does who determines it. i think everyone has strayed from the sit and call method at some point the toms make you adjust from what seems to be the typical set. the challenge of adaptation is as hard as "just you and the bird"


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## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

Linda G. said:


> it makes it more sporting than stalking or ambushing a flock, and undoubtedly shooting into that flock...


I agree with you there Linda !!!, but I am not sure it is an more sporting then sitting at the base of a roost tree and calling them back to roost.
Then again, I would love to hunt Fall turkeys with a well trained Turkey dog, so I will let you have the arguement... LOL

P.S. I will add this, I do find shooting hens unethical, but it is legal in the fall.. and I won't judge any one that shoots them!


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

A well trained turkey dog, and that's the only kind that should be used, never comes into personal contact with the turkeys, just spooks them, in a natural fashion the same way they're spooked by any other type of predator during the day, into the air. Then you put the dog away, or make the dog sit motionless beside you and sit down at the base of a tree to call the birds back in, one at a time...much more ethical, imho, than ambushing or stalking a flock, or whacking a bird when it walks underneath your tree stand when your main intent is bowhunting for deer. 

Speaking of deer, and the female of the species, it wasn't too many years ago that we all thought it was unethical to hunt does. Now we realize that, done REASONABLY, it's just good management. Same for turkeys. I used to call it QTM...  

I'm not a turkey guide, either...I just spend almost every day, almost year around, with the turkeys. You get to know a lot about them that you never noticed before.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Linda I can understand your point as you like to call in a turkey and I think everyone here would like to do the same each and every year but the facts are that the birds do not come in to the calls as often as we like to think. State land birds are hammered from the road by idiots trying to "scout" 2 months ahead of time and they are very wise to calls. I think it is a method most would use as a last resort end of season thing but you still have to be patient, still, camoed, and make a clean and ethical harvest. Do you feel it is wrong to pattern the turkeys and then sit along their daily route as if deer hunting from a blind? Just wondered, I am not attacking your methods Linda as I know your are a very ethical and moral sportsperson.

AW


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

90% of my hunting is done on public lands. Believe me, where there's LOTS of other hunters. 

The ticket is getting off the beaten path, finding birds that aren't pressured, HUNTING for them. They're out there, all over the state. The last bird I'll ever hunt is the one that stands out in the middle of the corn field on the highway all day-he's one tough cookie, and chances are, he's got your upper hand from the minute you see him. Find one that not everybody has seen already. 

What you describe, Adam, others would call ambush...and I don't do that. I try to meet the bird on his terms every time. 

You don't have to do what you have described if you get off the beaten path. And plan on maybe spending a LOT of time out there. And think of bagging a bird as a bonus to the hunt. 

The harvest is that much sweeter when you meet the bird on his terms.

To those who are proponents of opening the season to over the counter, last minute sales: If you think it can be tough out there now, just wait till they do that. You ain't seen nothin' yet...something you might want to think about when that one comes around again, it probably will sometime this year.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Don't you think luring them in with a decoy and some calls is considered an ambush when you pull the trigger? :sad: 

AW


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## hoosierwilk (Feb 26, 2004)

I'm not sure where to start so I'll just say that I am an absolute Turkey hunting fanatic. For anyone to suggest that trying to figure out the travel routes, where to set up, when to get there etc. etc. is easier than calling to a bird that responds to calling really makes me laugh. The easiest bird there is to kill is the one that comes right to your calling. Oh sure their the most fun, gobbling all the way in. It takes alot more work and woodsmanship to figure out a birds travel routes and be there when it matters. To say its unethical to set up close to roosting sites is bull. What do you do in the mornings? Where do you go when you here a gobbler sounding off in the morning? Do you go the other way and then try to call him over. I doubt it. You probaly get as close as you can to where he is roosted. Just because you think your way is more honorable because you like to call them in to me really shows your lack of woodsmanship. A good turkey hunter uses all his skills to hunt these birds. To put somebody down because it's not your way is just wrong. I've taken birds both ways and really don't understand why you think your way is more ethical than the other.


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## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

Adam Waszak said:


> Don't you think luring them in with a decoy and some calls is considered an ambush when you pull the trigger? :sad:
> 
> AW


A good arguement there to, as some states do not allow decoys .. is that an unethical, but legal way to hunt them?


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## SLIPBOBBER (Feb 7, 2005)

Hoosierwilk great reply.

when I read that I felt is if finaly someone thinks the way I do about turkeys. 
not that I have good luck calling. I always start out trying to call but, I get frustrated when I don't see any birds. I then go to the only other method I know. That is trying to get in front of the birds and waiting. that can be equally frustrating, but aleast I can see my progress. 9 out of 10 times I get busted.
like I said not easy but I get to call the next shot not the bird. unless I make a mistake.(9 out of 10 times) To me that is fun trying to out smart the bird. thats not easy.

linda is far is hunting on state land:
there is a big differance between state land in lower michigan than upper.
down here you try hard to back into the deep woods just to find another two track that would have save you 30 min. of walking time. the state land down here just is not big enough to go into the deep woods.


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## upnut (Aug 31, 2004)

Since I'm going to try and explain this to my 13 yr. old son...You don't call to a bird near a road because he's too smart and you would be stupid. You hunt for hours on end to find a bird you can't see-because obviously neither has anyone else. When you find a bird no one else has, don't shoot him at bedtime because he is stupid(and you would be too). What you do is sneak up on him very early in the morning(a teenager probably won't think that is too smart) and hide. Now, you still can't just blow his brains out! What you have to do is make him think he's in love with you, talking all trashy and stuff. Then, when he lets his guard down and is sure he's in love, THAT is when you blow his brains out. HOOOBOY....this could be a tough sell!!! I'll just bring him to the seminar and YOU can tell him all that stuff!!!:lol: ...Scott


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

OK I opened it back up.
Keep it on topic as much as possible and NO PERSONAL Attacks.
Enjoy ...........


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

I also agree hunting should end at 6:00PM. It's a long day to hunt between sunrise and then. Giving the birds some time to fill the crops and roost up will keep the birds in your area. The birds will respond much better to calls in the morning if they aren't over pressured. That's the best time to hunt them.


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

> THAT is when you blow his brains out.


It is not about blowing his brains out. It's about calling him in. 

Same as not shooting ducks swimming on the water. It's legal but it's not sporting. Bushwhacking turkeys is not the way to kill a turkey. It's sad so many new turkey hunters accept it.

If your only reason to hunt is to put a turkey on the table, you can buy 2 for the price of a license when they are on sale around Thanksgiving every year. 

I've mentored a lot of young hunters and I focus on the anticipation and enjoyment of being outdoors with them. That will keep them coming back to the woods rather than focusing all there attention on killing someone. Don't make that the sole purpose for hunting with young hunters or they will be disappointed because you don't always kill something every time you hunt.


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## Gobblerman (Dec 19, 2004)

*I've mentored a lot of young hunters and I focus on the anticipation and enjoyment of being outdoors with them. That will keep them coming back to the woods rather than focusing all there attention on killing someone. Don't make that the sole purpose for hunting with young hunters or they will be disappointed because you don't always kill something every time you hunt.[/QUOTE] *
[/color]

 
I would have to agree with that quote, turkey hunting is alot like bow hunting at times. It not the kill thats the greatest, it's just the bonus. It's the challenge of luring in that tom with your ability to call. Yes the set up is crucial along with good woodsmanship. Teaching todays youth this is much more important than 'Blowing his brains out". Teach hard work and committment, then the reward will be there. The same follows applys in life. Linda G, I agree with you.


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## byronbaitskimmer (Jan 31, 2005)

when the 4:00 cutoff was lifted what was the reason? did managers see the need to extend hunting to take more birds or was enforcement an issue? with the whole thing about turkey hunting being about you and the turkey and calling him in i know i have been very frustrated in the past. seemed like everything i did was not good enough with the calls. being able to take a turkey at the end of my season in the evening provided a sense of accomplishment and pride. those toms had outsmarted me all season yet i tried a new venue and let them come to me on my terms. i can scout an area, predict travel routes, and set up accordingly. mornings are on his terms he decides which hen calls a seductive enough to get his motor running and i guess i dont sound like a good looking lady. i enjoy the challenge of turkey hunting mornings and evenings!


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

The primary reason cited for lifting the 4:00 p.m. daily hunting cutoff, according to the MI NWTF, who suggested and promoted the change, was to allow young hunters (new hunters still in school) additional opportunities to hunt. 

Well, 6 p.m. would meet that objective. Most kids would have more than two hours, some three hours, after school was over for the day. 

My sons never needed that additional opportunity. They learned at an early age that the best time of the day to hear gobbling was at dawn. So, they went to bed a bit earlier at night, got up at ungodly hours, and hunted until it was time to go to school. They were never late, and there was also time to get breakfast down. Both of them killed a gobbler every spring from their first year of hunting until they graduated from high school, one leaving for college, the other for the US Air Force. Both are still dedicated turkey hunters today, and both still make that additional effort to hunt when the gobbling is best. 

I know a lot of other people who did the same thing with their kids. Still do, for that matter. 

I have never seen a young hunter out after school hunting turkeys, either alone or with someone else, and I get around quite a bit during every day of the spring turkey season. 

I do see a lot of adults out there in the late afternoon/evening, tho. I hear a lot of shots after hours, like after dark, too.


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## upnut (Aug 31, 2004)

It wouldn't be right to throw out a bad joke, apologize and leave, so here goes...Greg has been tagging along on grouse hunts and deer hunts since he was big enough to keep up. Allowing for my wingshooting abilities, he fully understands that actually killing something is optional. We have tried to instill the belief that the decision to take the life of any creature is an awesome responsibility, and I'm certain that he "gets it" or he wouldn't be going. Along with that, as he gets involved more with sports etc. we talk alot about respecting the game(class,teacher...) so it's not what you can get away with, it's what can you accomplish, what can you contribute. Hopefully all this will translate over to turkey hunting. He is already a big fan of this site, is reading a good book on turkey hunting, and we plan on taking in at least one seminar. We drive by a flock of about 30 turkeys every day going to school, so that helps keep the "fire" lit. We may even try a pre-school hunt, thanks for the tip Linda! We'll be sticking to early morning hunts, limited calling, and scouting the rest of the time. That's the plan, good luck to all...Scott


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## sprigdog (Jan 29, 2004)

Has lifting the 4:00 cutoff changed anything? Is there any scientific evidence stating #'s have been reduced cause of the longer hours?
If the hours were changed back to 4:00pm would it change a poacher so they wouldnt shoot past shooting times? 
I do pick my son up from school to evening hunt. I can pick him up at 2:45 and be hunting by 3:30. Before school, isnt an option, I live 45 minutes from my hunt area. 
Just another perspective.............
They do strut in past 4:00pm like any other time, gobble and strut. Like I said from the get go....whats the difference?


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

The birds are much more cooperative in the morning, before they've gotten everybody on the ground. I'm really surprised to hear that's news, it shouldn't be. I thought everybody knew that. 

Try it, you might find out it's an entirely different turkey you're talking to. That's the main reason why I don't bother to hunt them in the afternoon very much, they're not anywhere near as cooperative as they are in the morning right off the roost. 

Since the DNR has never done any indepth studies on the effects of the extended hunting day, but at the same time has continued adding more and more hunters into the field every year, they have no way of knowing whether it affects the kill ratio or not. 

But it just stands to reason that it does, with that many more hours in the hunting day. But numbers of birds killed isn't the problem. Just as many birds could be killed at dawn with all the hunters in the field nowadays...what matters is how many of them are being killed legally, and with some folks, ethically. 

There's that word again. 

As for poachers, yes, the extended hours do make it easier for them, since it is now legal to carry a weapon until just about dark. What's another few minutes, especially when you know what tree that gobbler just landed in for the night? Temptation is a powerful thing, especially when you think no one is looking. 

And the harder you hunt a turkey, the harder he is to hunt. That's an old one that shouldn't be a secret to anyone. I will actually "rest" my birds, only hunting one particular tom every few days, with the knowledge that other people may be chasing him as well. I will also seek out toms that haven't been hunted as hard, trying all the time not to hunt where the madding crowd has been, even on public land. 

That's the advantage of the long hunt, you can wait until the end of the season, if necessary, and you'll kill that big one you've seen every hunter in the county trying, without any luck at all. By that time, with luck, the majority of his girlfriends are nesting, this would be particularly true in the more southern counties, where nesting takes place earlier in the spring. 

A lot of my spots are 45 minutes to one hour away. You'll find there's a lot less traffic out there at 4 in the morning...

Patience can often make all the difference.


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## bowhunter4life (Aug 23, 2003)

Hey guys,

I am just an avid hunter that likes to get out and hunt. I was lucky enough to call in my first bird last year and let me tell you it was the most exciting experience I have had so far in my hunting experiences. I was later able to go out and call in another one for my dad. My bird was taken at about 4pm and my dad's was taken at 8am. I go out well before daylight and I put my hours in but I don't have any problems with someone taking their bird later in the evening either. I am not the greatest caller in the world, and if you can out smart one of these cunning creatures by patiently waiting in the right spot and am lucky enough to cross paths with him when he is done charming the ladies, then congrats. Not everyone can get out there early, and I just feel it is bad to harp on them for taking one in the evening. I believe that as long as you are out there having fun, hunting legally, then it shouldn't matter when you harvest your animal. I give the guys credit who can stick it out all day, and if they harvest thier bird at 6pm then congrats. If they are lucky enough to take a bird at 7am then congrats too! It is about getting out and experiencing what Michigan has to offer. whether you harvest a bird or not, I just hope everyone is able to get out there and have fun. So for all of you who get to experiece a gobbling Tom that works his way into your calling, I look forward to hearing the stories. For everyone that is able to go out, and strategically put themselves in the path of one of these wily creatures, I give you guys credit too, and am more than anxious to hear how you outsmarted the old boy. Good Luck to everyone this year, and have fun whether you hunting mornings, afternoons, evenings, and if you get a bird or not. Just enjoy your time afield.

Jay


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## sprigdog (Jan 29, 2004)

maybe now I tell you a little about my turkey hunting experience. I've lived in 5 different states, 2 of those states have had 3 bird a season limits, and 39-45 day long seasons. I routinely hunt 2-3 states a year (except last year) I was born in the 60's not the 80's, I killed my first turkey with a rifle when I was 12 at 100yds. The state I lived in issued a deer, bear, turkey tag all on the same card and the seasons were together. I called in my first bird at age 17, that hooked me. I have harvested numerous Toms in this time, 90% have been between the 5:45-10:00am. So I am very adept at getting up early. I dont hunt all day, if I go more than 2 days without hunting during an open season, i start twitching, so during periods of work that I have to be here in the am..guess where i'm going in the PM? I always pick the late season, I routinely let birds go. I have an Osceola left to fill my US grand slam. This isnt bragging, or interenet talk just a guy who has spent more days a field than most and has harvested more Toms than a person 45 years old could of taken legally in this state hunting the spring. 
Like I said earlier, i dont know you, you dont know me. With all that said, I do understand turkey's and I do understand we will never see eye to eye (on this issue). So if i ever run into to you, i'll introduce myself and thank you for having strong convictions, cause with out people like ourselves, we wouldnt even be able to have discussions about turkey hunting
Peace, out.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Remember areound 4:00pm you can still call in a Tom if you are patient about it. My first gobbler I sat down in an area they frequented in the late afternoon and called a few times and then shut up for over an hour. At about 3:30pm I heard something and turned to see a Tom in full strut looking for his girlfriend he heard.....that was it. I say if you set up and wait as if deer hunting or call em in you can still be proud of a turkey for the freezer as long as you follow the rules and leave em alone in the the trees once they are there, I too have heard shots fired when there should be no shooting :sad:


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## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

Toms Hen up pretty fast in the morning once they hit the ground. If he gets with his harem before he gets with you, you will have a hard time pulling him away. You may be able to call the hens to you, then he will follow, or maybe you can call in a younger "satelite" Tom/Jake. 
Later on in the ealryafternoon, when the hens go to nest, he will be lonely. You have a good chance of calling him in. If you want to hear allot of goobleing, then yes, the am is the best. In the afternoon you may not ever hear him gooble, but he could still be coming.
Later in the evening, they will start to gooble again as they call everyone back to roost. Calling works well then also! Use the same type of calling as you would in the Fall.. lost hen, "where is everone?".. type calls. It is a good tactic that would be lost with a cut off time. You do not have to sit under the roost tree and ambush, but get between the turkeys and the roost and call them back. I don't think anyone should feel guilty by using this tactic.


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## hoosierwilk (Feb 26, 2004)

The way I see it, we're all turkey hunters who love the sport. We all should be doing all that we can to promote it in a positive fashion. I'm a member of the NWTF and have been for 5 years. I also have mentored a couple young lads and try and introduce a newbie every year to this great sport. I love seeing the expression on their faces the first time they hear a gobble. I'm 48 so I don't think I fall into that young hunter catagory. (wish I did). The problem I'm having with this thread is some being so judgemental to others because they don't hunt the exact way they do. Ms Gallagher, this is not a direct quote but you state that you like to hunt these birds on their terms, calling them in, meeting them one on one. In my opinion thats exactly what you dont do! You only hunt them on your terms. If they won't respond to calling, call it a day and head for home. To me, thats hunting on your terms. You also stated that the last bird you would pursue was the one standing out in the middle of a corn field next to the highway. He's one tough cookie. This to me is hunting on his terms. He's there because he's been hunted and called to to much. In your mind he's not worthy of hunting because he's impossible to call in. Thats fine, go found another bird that will work to your calling better. Not a thing wrong with that. However if I decide to hunt this tom, go head to head with him, try and out maneuver him, out think him, you know, hunt him on his terms, you deem me as unethical. Why???? Maybe you should try and hunt one of these old wise birds that have been called to for weeks instead of just going after the easy ones. It's not that easy and like some on here have said 9 times out of 10 they win. It's still very exciting and rewarding, even if you don't harvest one. It's all in the hunt! So don't try and make it out to be just about the kill, thats just icing on the cake. If it doesn't happen, so be it. I still enjoyed the battle. I killed 5 longbeards last season, they all came to my calling. So what!!!! I would have enjoyed all the hunts just as much if I would have had to move on them. That's why they call it Turkey hunting and not Turkey calling. You have a nice day and good luck this season. Dave Wilkinson


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I will, I just said that would be the LAST bird I'd hunt...but when I hunt him, it will be when he will come to a call. I didn't say I wouldn't hunt him at all, but if time or numbers of birds are short, I'll try another one first.

I never said that anyone else interested in trying that bird out in the corn field was unethical...my, how these threads get off-course. 

I move on birds all the time, but I call to them. I don't try to set up in the path they're moving, unbeknownst to them, and ambush them. That's not challenging the birds, on their own terms. How can you challenge a bird that doesn't know you're there?

A wild turkey gobbler will always know I'm there, or rather that another hen is. 

I offered my thoughts and opinions on turkey hunting, using the methods that I was taught to use that were deemed ethical to me. 

If you don't agree, fine, as long as it's legal. The only person who will judge you when you're out there is you. 

What anyone else thinks should be immaterial, unless you're having second thoughts. Then it becomes a big deal to one person far more than it does to anyone else-you, in the form of your conscience. 

Judging from the defensiveness of this thread, there's a lot of that out there. 

Nuff said, I'm done. Enjoy your turkey season.


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## Itch (Feb 10, 2005)

Hoosier, GREAT RESPONSE.

I think what we're seeing is not a difference in opinion of hunting method but the fact that one conservation organization pioneered a dramatic increase in the number of hours we can LEGALLY spend hunting turkeys each spring. For those who TRULY love the sport and the resource, that's a win-win situation. For those who dislike anything to do with that organization, well, you've got reason to gripe and look for ways to belittle that effort.

It's not only legal to hunt turkeys in the late afternoon, it's a great time to call them (no gobbler wants to roost without a hen) and as long as you're not shooting them at fly-up (which isn't a problem becuase the LAW prohibits that and hunting ends 30 minutes before sunset) you're in the good.

I, personally, know a whole bunch of kids that hunt after school.


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## Playin' Hooky (Aug 29, 2002)

Ethics: Doing the "right" thing to get a "good" outcome. What's "right" and "good" depends on one's personal values. 

Thou shalt not kill (= morals) Ex: If abortion = killing it's (morally) wrong EXCEPT in cases of rape or incest (that's ethics)

Man, sometimes I wish we COULD legislate morality--that way everything would be black and white, we'd know EXACTLY what we could or couldn't do:

Thou shalt not hunt turkeys after 12PM.

Thou shalt not hunt with any gun less than a 12 gauge.

Thou shalt call to a turkey to lure him into effective shotgun range of not more than 30 yards.

Thou shalt (shalt not?--a friend of mine considers them unethical) use decoys.

Gosh, if we had to follow all those rules, what would we have to debate about??

My experience with hunting turkeys in the afternoons during the spring season is that they are less likely to be called in--so isn't that MORE of a challenge--therefore convincing the bird, on his own terms, that he wants to do something he might not otherwise be inclined to do is a real accomplishment?

I guess I never saw the initial intention of this thread to be about shooting birds off the roost. The issue of shooting birds on or about to roost is moot in the spring if you're following the law anyway. Spring hours end 1/2 hour BEFORE sunset local time. The past two seasons when I've unloaded my gun after an afternoon hunt to enjoy the last hour of the day and "roost" birds for the next morning's hunt, the toms were still on the field strutting, hens still filling their crops before heading to the roost at SUNSET. Like clockwork, the birds are flying up as the sun dips behind the trees. You'd have to have some really nasty weather to send the birds to roost half and hour early.

Last fall I hunted turkeys in a hardwood woodlot amid a group of oak trees that serves as a feeding and roosting area. My daughter and I watched the birds come in, feed a bit and fly up to roost about 100 yards away. She asked why I couldn't go shoot one out of a tree (told her that's illegal) or make it fly and shoot it (told her that's unethical). I suggested we wait until dark, sneak out and return to our tent blind (ethics here, too?) in the morning. If the birds flew down and came our way, maybe we'd get one. Next morning we were there early, the birds flew down and walked away from us, then came back through the woods scratching and feeding. I took one at 20 yards. I didn't bust up a flock with a dog or scare them off the roost. I didn't call. I put myself in an area that turkeys frequented due to a natural food supply and I killed one when IT CHOSE to come into range, just as I would a deer. 

I felt less ethical about using the blind than I did about not calling, but am I wrong for not playing the game the same way that others want to play it? I have some objection to busting up a flock for the purpose of calling a bird back. That's a purposeful negative influence on the turkeys that a person causes to take advantage of a weakness (group dynamic). Just because that's the way it's always been done--is it right? If it's about a challenge on a level playing field...call in turkeys that haven't been flushed! That's meeting the birds on their own terms.

I remember reading a story in a major outdoor publication years ago about busting up a flock of roosted turkeys (spring season) at night by sneaking in and firing off a couple shotgun shells. I assumed it was legal in that state (not MI) but what about the ethics of the practice. Idea was to make it easier to call in a gobbler who'd been separated from his love interests. Acceptable practice there, but some would obviously object.

I love to jump shoot ducks. If I can get within range of a flock of mallards, wood ducks or teal by sneaking and crawling though brush and trees and cattails and swamp mud, I think I've beaten the birds at their own game and am elated to stand up, shout and take my shots. Then I sit down and wait for any returning ducks for pass shooting. Is it unethical to have ambushed these birds, as decoying and calling are more traditional practices that I chose not to employ? I think not.

The issue is YOUR ethical perspective. You're certainly entitled to it, but don't expect everyone to embrace your point of view. (Besides, that way you can still feel "a little bit more superior" as the Church Lady from SNL would say. :lol: )

By the way...After hearing some people's calling, I wish they'd try to ambush their turkey  and I'm still working on mine!


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## Rat Fink (Feb 20, 2001)

Looks like the ELITISM is again at work in the Great North Woods. I for one absolutely love stalking a turkey and getting in range for a kill. It is RIDICULOUSLY hard to sneak up on a turkey and get into range. I have killed 5 of my last 10 birds doing this and man is it ever satisfying. I know the land I am hunting extremely well and use ditches, ridges and other cover to position myself for a shot. This year I will be trying it with a bow. Where I hunt it is overrun with trespassers and the birds get spooked before the season even starts. You try calling those birds in. I will stick with my stalking methods as long as they are legal and succesful.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

When all else fails, "turkey drive" we have done that too one guy waits and the other enters the field in the opposite side and there go the turkey meandering passed the othe hunter. I bet that is considered low too but the turkey is still tasty :evil: 

AW


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## Playin' Hooky (Aug 29, 2002)

I applaud your predatory prowess! I respect your methods as an honest, legal and ethical pursuit. You have used the tools available to you to advantage and succeeded in taking a most wary and worthy adversary. Hunting is a form of predation, after all. Don't feel the need to justify your actions with the "pressured birds" and "trespassers" issues. I'd guess that you'd still hunt this way even if you weren't so successful! I didn't quit jump shooting because I got busted more times than I can remember!

Incidentally, were your kills morning or afternoon hunts? I'd guess that the birds would be easier in the morning since they're so interested in/distracted by all the calling that's going on!


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## Rat Fink (Feb 20, 2001)

Usually mid morning kills just after the hens split for the day. It is definately not an easy way to hunt and is not succesful most of the time. BUT it only takes 1 time right? I am also a BIG fan of the Turkey drive. My buddy and I took turns driving turkeys to each other one day. We each got our birds 15 minutes apart. Mine was a 10.5 incher and his was a 7 incher. It was probably the most memorable hunt I have ever been on with one of my best friends. I just love sneaking over a ridge top or the edge of a ditch and being face to face with a red white and blue head. BANG!


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## byronbaitskimmer (Jan 31, 2005)

i was first introduced to turkey hunting by a friend in high school and the turkey drive was his bread and butter. he learned it from his dad and taught it to other newcomers. i tried to get away from this for the thrill of calling one in but i have not yet mastered the call. late afternoon provided me with a time when i did not have to call to have turkeys come to me. a lot of homework and scouting time can pay off just as well as learning a call well.


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## Sib (Jan 8, 2003)

Great post Playin' Hooky! The thread needed a dose of reality and you delivered.


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## steveh27 (Oct 23, 2000)

Interesting reading this thread. I agree with the idea that it's OK to hunt by any legal method, but I also agree with the idea of trying to change laws to make it more beneficial to wildlife or ethical (I guess it's in the eye of the beholder & the majority rules on this).

That said I've turkey hunted for over 25 years in 6 states, soon to be 7. Some have ending hours of noon others don't. I'm glad Michigan changed from the noon end of hunting to 4PM, but am not sure I like the end of day now. I think they could make it 6pm & all would be well. I try to hunt for most of the legal hours while only taking a short mid-day break. It's tough to do that, getting up so early & hunting late. I usually do not hunt until dark because of the need for sleep to hunt the next AM. I tend to agree with the idea of giving the birds a little bit of daytime to not be hunted & head to their roosts unpressured. But, I would not look down on someone who did it legal. In PA shooting hours end at noon & you MUST be out of the turkey woods by 1PM.

I sure hope the DNR doesn't go to over the counter for all permits. It would cause such a problem on public land. It's hard to call in birds that could be chased by so many hunters. I could tell stories of just that in OK. I'll never go hunt on public land there again. Hunting this year in FLA, MI, & PA.


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## Lil' Tanker (Jan 9, 2002)

has anyone mentioned the legal shooting hours posted in the rule book.

Those are not just randomly selected they are like that for a reason and that is so you don't sit under a gobblers tree and shoot him on his way to bed.

If that is the case it would be easier to go out in the morning and shoot him right out of the tree at least then he is not moving.


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## Playin' Hooky (Aug 29, 2002)

I read in the American Hunter mag last night that AL is now going to allow the use of turkey decoys, lifting a long-held ban on the fakes. It said 77% of hunters approved of their use.

I wonder how the other 23% will feel about all the "cheaters"?  

Of course, I'm not sure about the ethics there anyway, as they allow turkey hunting with pistols--but not crossbows  !

Always interesting to read how they do it in other states:

http://www.outdooralabama.com/hunting/index.


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## jstfish48162 (Mar 8, 2003)

in 1997, i was hunting in Alpena County during the spring turkey season. as i began loading my gear in my truck around 11 a.m., i looked across the road into a grass field and saw a huge tom and 3 hens together. i watched for a few minutes, and decided to try to stalk him. he was well over a 1/4 mile away, and i had some rough terrain to cover. the journey began by making a circle to approach the bird from the nearby woodlot and get as close as possible for a shot at him in the field. i started down an old logging road, and made a few lonesome hen calls as i made my way towards the bird. after about 45 minutes of slowly making my way through the woodlot, i heard the tom let out a thunderous gobble....i froze! about 15 seconds later, another echoing gobble peirced the air....the tom was calling for me (his lonesome hen), and i softly purred back.....NO response from the tom. 5 minutes goes by, and i continue my stalk towards the bird. after about 50 more yards of sneeking through the woods, i come across a major barrier....there is a small beaver pond between me and a hot tom!!! i make a chilly decision.....i am going to sneek through the water and get to the edge of the woods and hopefully, he is still there waiting for a lunch date!!! after the first few steps, i feel water soaking my feet.....i had forgotten that i changed from my rubber boots into my regular non-insulated hunting boots.....this water was MAYBE 40 degrees at the most. too late now, im committed and i continue through the water. then it happens.....the tom is in view about 45 yards away, and has absolutely no idea i am on his trail. i picked a spot about 20 yards away where i would be able to put a decent size birch tree between us, and wait for a decent shot at him. after about 20 minutes, i make it to my spot and notice all 3 of the hens were resting near the exact place they were when i first saw them. i can't see my tom and i begin to wonder if i messed up and spooked him. a few minutes go by, and i have not heard or seen the bird.....then BAM!!!!! he is right in front of me at 17 yards.....i kneel down next to the large birch tree and shoulder my shotgun......"why are my arms getting cold?" the water had been so cold during the "wading" part of the stalk, that i was too numb to notice i was standing in knee deep water before i knelt down. well, being about 5'8" tall, it doesn't take much water to cover a majority of me...especially when already knee deep then kneeling. i stay put and see the tom strutting around the "other" hens and decide to give a jealous purr and that set him off....he let out the loudest gobble i have ever heard....made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. then he makes his final mistake.....he stops strutting about 15 yards away, sticks his head up and looked for the lonesome hen behind him that was purring so softly to him....all he was greeted with was a lethal dose of copper plated #5's from my Remington 870 Magnum 12 gauge. 22 lbs, 10.5 inch beard, left spur 1", right spur broken off. very respectable bird in my book. when i returned to my truck, it was 315 p.m. this stalk took over 3.5 hours to complete.....i am/was very proud of my accomplishment.  

was this unethical? was it a great hunt? in my mind, i did something that not too many people have...stalk a very seasoned bird in the Northern Lower Peninsula of Michigan. in my mind i did nothing wrong. i did it on his home turf, away from his roosting area in the middle of the day.


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## Playin' Hooky (Aug 29, 2002)

I don't believe ANYONE on this thread would argue with your ethics...especially because you were calling  !


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## Gobblerman (Dec 19, 2004)

Sounds like an awesome hunt! I give you credit for having the patience and the determination to get that tom.


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## hoosierwilk (Feb 26, 2004)

Congrats on a fine hunt jstfish. Sounds like you earned that bird!


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