# Smokeless powder during ML season?



## MIBIGHNTR (Aug 27, 2002)

Is smokeless powder legal during MI's muzzleloader season? As in a Savage Muzzleloader designed for such?

Thanks!

Mark


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Illegal, black powder or black powder substitute only, no smokeless powder.


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

boehr,

Is smokeless powder in a muzzleloader legal during "All Firearms Deer Seasons-Rifle Zone" or "Shotgun Zone"?

I have conflicting information from the DNR Law Division in Lansing. I was told if it loads from the muzzle, even with smokeless, that it is legal.

What constitutes a "Black Powder Substitute", we have been substituting smokeless for black powder in all firearms for more years than I have been around, haven't we?

I am trying to get an official letter from Lansing, that will determine weather I purchase a smokeless muzzleloader.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

No we have not been using smokless powder for all those years. We have use Clean Shot, Pyrodex etc., which are black powder substitudes. If you load smokeless powder (which is the powder that is used in regular rifle shells) in a black powder rifle that is not specifically made for it (which has only been happening for about two years now) let everyone around you know before you shoot it because it just may blow up. If you take a regular muzzleloader and look at the package in came in it will warn you about using smokless power.

In the shotgun zone, even during the regular firearm season you can't use smokless powder in a muzzleloader. In the rifle zone, during the regular season you can use smokeless powder.

Sec. 1.6. "Shotgun, handgun, *black-powder firearms only* area" means that area south of a line beginning at a point on the Wisconsin-Michigan boundary line directly west of the west end of highway M-46; then east to M-46 and east along M-46 to its junction with freeway US-131; then south along freeway US-131 to M-57; then east along M-57 to its intersection with Montcalm road on the Kent-Montcalm county line; then south along that county line and the Ionia-Kent county line to its intersection with M-44; then east along M-44 to its intersection with M-66; then north along M-66 to its intersection with M-57; then east along M-57 to its intersection with M-52; then north along M-52 to its intersection with M-46; then east along M-46 to its intersection with M-47; then north along M-47 to its junction with US-10; then east along US-10 to its junction with I-75; then north along I-75 and US-23 to its junction with Beaver road, Kawkawlin township, Bay county; then east along Beaver road to Saginaw bay; then north 50o east to the international boundary with Canada.

(c) A muzzle-loading rifle or black-powder pistol *loaded with black-powder or a commercially manufactured black-powder substitute*. 

(2) The open muzzle-loading and *black-powder firearms only* deer season in zone 1 shall be a total of 10 days from the first Friday in December to 9 days thereafter. The open muzzle-loading and *black-powder firearms only* deer season in zones 2 and 3 shall be a total of 10 days from the second Friday in December to 9 days thereafter.

When you get that official letter I sure would like to see it but you are getting the official stuff right here, the law is clear.


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

Hi boehr,

We were talking about the Savage ML10-II smokeless muzzleloader that MIBIGHNTR was refering to, I would never load smokeless in a regular muzzleloader.

When I was refering to substituting smokeless for years was in conventional arms. When arms were invented, they were made to shoot Black Powder, it was through the invention of smokless that these arms were then changed to shoot smokeless.

What I am getting at is the Savage ML10-II Muzzleloader was designed to shoot Smokeless powder as it's substitute for Black Powder. So is smokeless powder not a black powder substitute for the Savage Muzzleloader that also shoots Black Powder, Pyrodex, Pyrodex Pellets, Clean Shot, Clean Shot Pellets, Black Canyon, Clear Shot, American Pioneer, American Pioneer Powder Sticks, Mag 3, Triple Seven, Triple Seven Pellets and a few others? 

Where can I find a definition of "A Black Powder Substitute"? 

On my Clean Shot and Black Canyon cans it says "Black Powder Replacement". IMR-4227, Accurate Arms XMP 5744, and Vihtavouri N 110 are Black Powder substitutes/replacements approved for use in the Savage ML10-II Muzzleloader ONLY.

I am not trying to argue with you, I am just trying to understand just where the "Black Powder Substitute" ends and other non-approved powders begins.

Last year when the caliber restrictions were dropped for the Muzzleloading Deer Season it seems that the law was not very clear, thus allowing Black Powder Cartridge Pistols (loaded from the Breach) to participate in the Muzzleloader Only Deer Season. These are not just cap and ball revolvers but cartridge revolvers that can be shot and loaded as fast as a conventional revolver handgun. Was that the original intent of the law?

I personally think the law is not clear, or all the Officers and the Brass in Lansing would be on the same page. They are clearly not.

Thank you for your time, I appreciate it!


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

A black powder substitude is a powder that can be used in a firearm only made for black powder.

Black powder pistols were not effected by the change in the law because the law never stated muzzleloading black powder pistols. The law stated then and still states muzzleloading black powder rifles and black powder pistols. The law change was caliber. There never was a requirement for a pistol to be loaded from the muzzle, for a pistol the requirement was just black powder. I can't explain or define it any better.

I am interested to know who is the brass in Lansing you are referring to, a law person or a receptionist? There is no confusion between CO's from the Chief on down.


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

boehr,

Thank you for your response, you have explained it better than anybody else has.

You are a straight-shooter, I like that!

I have sent you a PM for part of your answer.

Thank you for your time, and for being available for these questions and your timely responses.


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