# Swamp Improvement



## davidshane (Feb 29, 2004)

Of the 95 acres I have, 50 of it is open marsh type swamp. It never gets thick and the only thing that grows out there is that swamp brush (like you see in boggs). Deer rarely move through it or stop by to eat anything in it. If I could only make it into something thicker for the deer to hide in. Water levels vary. 

I'm not even sure if, in the state's eyes, I'm allowed to touch it. 

Any ideals? This property could be real good if I could make something of this portion.


----------



## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

White cedar


----------



## orion (Apr 8, 2002)

Forget about the deer. Become a duck hunter. I wish I had 50 acres of wetland. In the words of a friend of mine at the USFWS "Wetter is Better". This wetland that you have is more beneficial than you might think, all animals benefit from a wetland. You have deer that use it more than you think. If you think you might want to enhance the wetland, contact me via PM and I will set you up with the right people. By enhance, I mean to control the water levels. The worst thing you could do would be to drain it.


----------



## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Willow and alder grow real thick where I'm at.


----------



## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

i agree on the white cedar. i had a lot of willow in my low area but the past 2 summers it has been dry and the willow died out.


----------



## slowpoke (Jan 30, 2001)

White Cedar would be a good choice but deer will eat it before it has a chance to grow unless you have a way to protect it and in a wet area thats going to be a tough row to hoe.


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I have areas just like you are talking about, I think. Tag alder grows in spots, and there are occasional stunted pine and spruce, but that's about it. And very little deer activity. The area though is dry for most of the year. You will have to construct fences to keep the deer out of the cedar, and wait a lifetime. You could possible spot spray the dry areas to kill the swamp brush, that the locals around here refer to as "leather leaf", and attempt to replace with red osier dogwood, or even white pine for just cover. Willows would be great too if you can plant them, but that brush will be pretty competitive.


----------



## bishs (Aug 30, 2000)

Silky and Red osier dogwood should grow anywhere there is ground that is not under water for a long time. Red Osier dominates a lot of "Haymarshes" in the UP. If your land does not have the dogwood, "Red or Purple twigged in color". Its probably do to heavy deer browsing. They are favorite browse species. In the winter when the water is froze they could venture out and browse.


----------



## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Where is your property located? Believe it or not, in some agricultural areas where White Cedar is not a native species, deer hardly touch it where planted.


----------



## davidshane (Feb 29, 2004)

Thanks for all the replies!

I'm in Roscommon County. I'm surrounded by state land on three sides. My 50 acres is part of 1000's of acres of swamp on state. 

There's an area with many dead trees (been dead for a long while too) that I believe were killed when water levels were high. This swamp goes up and down based on water levels in Lk. St. Helen and Houghton Lake. When levels are hign in the lakes the DNR adds a board to their dam and retains water in the swamp. When levels are low (like now) they remove boards and let water filter down to the lakes. 

I don't think I will be able to fence this in. I will have to find something the deer won't eat. However, all I want is cover. I will be putting in food plots to better the existing habitat. My other 45 acres is mostly cedar (great cover add winter habitat).

Is it possible to bulldoze half of the swamp to create one side high enough to stay dry and allow growth while the other gets deeper and better for water fowl?


Orion - there are duck and geese but theres lots of area for them.


----------



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by davidshane _
> *Is it possible to bulldoze half of the swamp *


 For something like that involving wetlands you should contact the DEQ.


----------



## bishs (Aug 30, 2000)

Deeper water will be attractive to geese, but ducks like shallow water. I created three wetland ponds, Designed for waterfowl and wildlife. They wanted to maximize a 10 inch water level. The shallow water warms up quicker and produces food for ducks faster in the spring. If you did take a dozer to increase dry land, you would benefit deer. The moist soil would grow Speckled Alder very fast. You probably already have it there, its the same as Tag Alder, prime beaver and snowshoe rabbit food, grouse eat the buds. Speckled Alder will not be browsed heavy by deer. Just good cover. Dogwood would be browsed heavy, but you can just stick cuttings in areas where the soil stays moist. They use dogwood for stream bank stabilization. They bury long cuttings lengthwise in areas along the bank that stay moist. It will sprout branches along the length of the cutting.


----------



## davidshane (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm thinking that at some point I will have to deal with the DNR or DEQ. I've heard from many people (some probably sh_t house lawyers - the guys that know it all) that you can do certain things on your property that the gov. will tell you that you can't. Thats where I looking for sound advice, I don't want to do away with my wet lands, just change them. 

I'm worried that if I contact the gov. first that what I will hear is that I can't do anything to improve the property for deer. That's why I need a non gov. expert of this topic.

Any more suggestions?


----------



## bishs (Aug 30, 2000)

Talk to ducks Unlimited

Try WHIP

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/programs/whip/


----------



## brokenarrow (Oct 6, 2003)

> Is it possible to bulldoze half of the swamp to create one side high enough to stay dry





> I don't want to do away with my wet lands, just change them.


 Although your intentions may be good for your deer hunting seasons, I believe most DNR's would say, "you are eliminating wetlands" (half would be gone). contacting the right people with the right words may get them to listen to you, (that may be the hardest part). Good luck.


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bishs _
> * Dogwood would be browsed heavy, but you can just stick cuttings in areas where the soil stays moist. They use dogwood for stream bank stabilization. They bury long cuttings lengthwise in areas along the bank that stay moist. It will sprout branches along the length of the cutting. *


I have never heard of this - So - if i clip long cuttings from my red osier and bury them in damp soil say along a damp run they will sprout the entire length? - 

What would the best time to do this sort of thing be? cut now while dormat? and plant in the dormat state? or wait for budding to start and then clip and bury ???

ferg....


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I really like that idea of opening up a few ponds on the property...even shallow ponds, while small ridges would be created adjacent to the ponds that may allow for an increase in habitat variety and cover.

It would improve many aspects of your property especially topgraphy, cover, and overstory.

Would be interesting to see if legally possible....have you tried contacting an excavator?


----------



## bishs (Aug 30, 2000)

Ferg, for stream bank erosion control, they will bundle 4 foot whips and bury them lengthwise along the stream bank, in moist soil. They will sprout along their length. The bundle provides some imediate erosion control, but the real benefit is when the bundle sprouts. They use dogwood and willow whips.


----------



## bishs (Aug 30, 2000)

Check out this site

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/water/pubs/fs_st/stfs14.htm


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Pretty cool


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

very cool - thanks bishs


ferg....


----------



## Ed Spin (Mar 20, 2003)

David:

I don't know your whole story but as some suggest wetlands are a blessing. Does the edge of your swamp become dry in late July? Does it tend to stay dry into the hunting season or does it become dry some years and some years not? 

In my firarm site I have a drainage that wanders through it and passes right next to my permanent elevated ash tree stand. The drainage is rather flat in this area and will flood out to about two acres in the spring and two feet deep in the deepest area. I see dozens of puddle ducks (mallard and wood) along with a few mating pairs of geese every spring during the turkey season. In mid July it usually dries out and then stinging nettle grows in great profusion. Deer like this stuff as do turkeys. Lately I have been experimenting with trying to grow food plots in late summer along the drier edges and if it is a dry summer the whole spring flooded area. Last year I planted nothing for the rains came in July and never stoped. The area flooded out at the firearm season as though it was spring time. Two acres is a large food plot size for a hunting site and now for the rest of the story.

Obviously I wait until the water is gone and the soil resonably dry. I spray round up herbicide around mid July and by hand if the soil is too wet to support my ATV. Sometimes along the drier edges I use the ATV and walk through the softer areas with my back pack 4 gallon sprayer. You can do a lot with this tool. Sometimes I wait for the wetter areas to dry out to spray,fertilize and plant later while the edges are sprayed fertilzed and broadcast seeded by the first of August. If the conditions allow it, I go for it! 

Obviously I can only seed annuals and that is exactly what works best as an attractant, especially when planted in late summer, which has this forage at its peek for lushness, digestability, protein content and palability. I plant other shooting lanes, and still The two acres at times is not enough to last to the firearm opener. The annuals consist of brassica mix like Bilogic Maximum, wheat, oats, rye, and if the area is dry enough, soybeans. All of this is planted together as a mix. The soys are obviously gone, but they did their job in "bringing in the sheep". Due to the soil being moist, tillage is usually not needed.

David, I 'm not going to tell you how well this works, I think you already figured it out. Check out your area and find the potential high spots in late summer and good luck.

Keep the fun in hunting!


----------



## davidshane (Feb 29, 2004)

I do agree that wet lands are a blessing and I know their importance. 

My 45-50 acres is part of a huge swamp (1000's of acres). If I were able to change this piece it would have little to no negative affect on the wildlife in this area. I have no neighbors so there would be no trend setting that could cause great damage. This is all state around me. I think that if I could show you the area you could better understand what type of task this will be. 

It is always wet. In dry years (now) the depth will range from 1' - 2' with the creek in the back being 3-4'. Wet years will add another 1-2' best guess.

I'll try to get back there and take some pics of the swamp next weekend. Right now snow drifts prevent intering the area unless your on a sled. 

Ed, we met at Outdoorarama. It was good to talk to you about plots. I hope we meet again some day, maybe talk about some new food plots.

I'll try to post an aerial of the property in my gallery.


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

David,

Nice photo of your property. Is that a ridge going through the center of the property between the cedar swamp and marsh? Looks like you have great cover, water, screening cover, etc., what about your food sources? Looks like a nice piece!


----------



## davidshane (Feb 29, 2004)

Thanks Jeff, I've hunted the state land around this area since I was a kid. It was my hope that some day I would own the acreage and the cabin so that I could raise my son in the same fashion that I was raised. So last year a bought the place and this year I had Joshua, my two month old. Life can be good!

No ridge here, infact, very little high ground at all. Thats where the tree line ends and the marsh opens up. 

One of this years projects is to cut a food plots and start using Roundup to eliminate the junk. I read Ed's book and talked with him at a show, I'll follow his advice and only prep a site this year. Next year I'll try and grow something. 

This property has tons of potential. I have a good ideal of what I want to do with it now to help make it even better down the road. I'm considering the use of a property manager type to come in and help with a plan. However, I have to watch my cost. 

I really hope I can make something happen on the marsh issue. It provides little for deer to eat and no cover at all.


----------



## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Digging ponds would be great, but the DEQ would probably not allow it because the spoils would fill in a wetland, a big no-no in thier book. They might allow shallow, wildlife ponds though, which would be great for ducks. Dogwood will not grow in a marsh, it will only grow on the edges, thesame for osier. There are very few tree species that will grow in a marsh, that's why there are no trees there to begin with. I've tried planting a bunch of different kinds of trees in my marsh and have had no luck at all. You might be surprised though how many deer will pass through a marsh, as long as the water is not too deep. you might want to consider putting up an eleveated stand in the middle of the thing so you can cover a large area while hunting.


----------



## The Nailer (Feb 7, 2000)

I have a question re: ponds. I have an area that is similar to what has been described, it is wet roughly thru July then will dry out until late Sept or Oct depending on rainfall. It is an area that is supposed to be runoff towards the Thunder Bay river. Is it legal to dig a pond utilizing the run off to fill it? The whole area is about 7 acres and I had it logged off a couple of years ago, it was heavy in maple w/ a canopy so thick nothing would grow. Now in the summer there is very tall grass (up to about 4-5 feet). 

I was thinking of a small pond near where I'm building my house mostly for wildlife. I'm not really interested in stocking it w/ fish. 

Do you need a permit for a pond?

Any thoughts?


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

that even a 'seasonal' pond - is considered a wetland - and that you would have to have permission from DEQ to manipulate anything larger that 5 acres - anything smaller that 5 and its a local decision - 

ferg....

http://www.michigan.gov/deq/0,1607,7-135-3313_3687-10502--,00.html


----------



## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Ferg _
> *that even a 'seasonal' pond - is considered a wetland - and that you would have to have permission from DEQ to manipulate anything larger that 5 acres - anything smaller that 5 and its a local decision -
> *


Unless they have changed the laws in the past few years you would need both DEQ and local permission to dig or create any pond. Where you likely will run into problems obtaining a permit is with the dredge spoils. They will not allow you to put the spoils on wetlands.


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

local is 2 acres or under in size - 

sorry for the mix up - should have read it first 

ferg....


----------

