# Pointers bred for Grouse?



## Bonz 54

OK, I can't stand the quiet. Besides the quiet, the loss of our Maggie has torn a BIG hole in our hearts. Megan (Maggies neice) is walking through the house with her head and tail hanging. I know I want an English Pointer (please don't suggest another breed) and from Grouse hunting stock. I am not looking for a horizon chasing quail dog from Texas. 

So this Thread is the start of my research. What do you have for suggestions? Any particular lines? Kennels? I'm looking for as much information as I can get to make the best decision possible. Thanks for your help in advance everyone. FRANK


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## Duece22

Get in touch with Bruce from Hifive Kennels. He lives in the grouse woods and probably has some dogs that would match up to what you are looking for. 


RH


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## BIGSP

Duece22 said:


> Get in touch with Bruce from Hifive Kennels. He lives in the grouse woods and probably has some dogs that would match up to what you are looking for.
> 
> 
> RH


PM Sent,

Also Bruce just bred an Elhew bitch to one of his really well bred pointers that I would look into. I just wish this breeding took place 6 months from now.


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## Birdsonthebrain

Agree with above. Talk to Bruce. There are quite a few of us on the site that have HiFive Pointers. He breeds Great grouse dogs.


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## dogwhistle

i have an excellent pointer from Bruce. his pedigree is all over the map.

look for a male with a couple champions and a dam sired by a champion.
my dog was sired by the male that sold for 15K and then had to be put down "black something". the dam is by Ch. Elhew Sinbad- a horse back dog.

go see Bruce Minard, tell him what you are looking for and put yourself in his hands.


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## Drifter Saver

Make sure you know what you are looking for in a dog first. A grouse dog is generally just a dog introduced and hunted on grouse. Many of the parents and grandparents of available Pointers are horizon chasing quail dogs.


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## BIGSP

Drifter Saver said:


> Make sure you know what you are looking for in a dog first. A grouse dog is generally just a dog introduced and hunted on grouse. Many of the parents and grandparents of available Pointers are horizon chasing quail dogs.


Couldn't agree more. Just because some dogs have never seen grouse doesn't mean that they wouldn't/won't be great grouse dogs given exposure. I think the number one quality of a "potential grouse dog" is that it needs to be biddable. Many a great grouse dog has come from sires and dams who have never seen or smelled a grouse.


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## Laphroaig

While most stock probably does come from horizon chasing quail dogs back a few generations; you are on the right track by going to those who have selectively (and exclusively) bred for grouse hunting. If I were in your shoes, looking for an English Pointer I'd look (in this order) at Bruce at HiFive, NorthWind Enterprises and Superior Pointers.


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## Laphroaig

BIGSP said:


> Couldn't agree more. Just because some dogs have never seen grouse doesn't mean that they wouldn't/won't be great grouse dogs given exposure. I think the number one quality of a "potential grouse dog" is that it needs to be biddable. Many a great grouse dog has come from sires and dams who have never seen or smelled a grouse.


That's not been my understanding at all. I believe many or most coverdog champions have coverdog parents up close. We probably have different definitions of what encompasses "Many a great grouse dog...". 

Furthermore, my experience is just the opposite. I've seen very good quail and pheasant dogs from the south struggle on ruffed grouse. Im living proof of that when I lived down south and we'd take a trip up to grouse hunt with our world beaters. We got our arses handed to us by grouse. On the other hand, I've seen good to very good grouse dogs not skip a beat on trips south or west for quail and pheasants and Huns. I recall a few trips from Michigan friends (with grouse dogs) coming down for wild quail hunting, with no problems with covey finds and single finds right along with our local dogs.


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## 2ESRGR8

BIGSP said:


> Couldn't agree more. Just because some dogs have never seen grouse doesn't mean that they wouldn't/won't be great grouse dogs given exposure. I think the number one quality of a "potential grouse dog" is that it needs to be biddable. Many a great grouse dog has come from sires and dams who have never seen or smelled a grouse.


Says the guy who's Pointer comes from Missouri.  :evilsmile

I disagree about number one quality for a grouse dog. Biddable is nice I guess but first and foremost it must have mental composure around game to be a better than average grouse dog.


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## BIGSP

2ESRGR8 said:


> Says the guy who's Pointer comes from Missouri.  :evilsmile
> 
> I disagree about number one quality for a grouse dog. Biddable is nice I guess but first and foremost it must have mental composure around game to be a better than average grouse dog.


I should have said biddable and smart. The two go hand in hand to me.

I do believe that Bruce has bred some of his Coverdog pointers to horseback to, right Scott  ?


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## BIGSP

Laphroaig said:


> That's not been my understanding at all. I believe many or most coverdog champions have coverdog parents up close. We probably have different definitions of what encompasses "Many a great grouse dog...".
> 
> Furthermore, my experience is just the opposite. I've seen very good quail and pheasant dogs from the south struggle on ruffed grouse. Im living proof of that when I lived down south and we'd take a trip up to grouse hunt with our world beaters. We got our arses handed to us by grouse. On the other hand, I've seen good to very good grouse dogs not skip a beat on trips south or west for quail and pheasants and Huns. I recall a few trips from Michigan friends (with grouse dogs) coming down for wild quail hunting, with no problems with covey finds and single finds right along with our local dogs.


I agree with your saying, maybe I just didn't express what I meant properly. Well bred dogs that are EXPOSED to grouse will usually figure it out. I'm not saying a pheasant champion would be a great grouse dog but, I bet his pups might make pretty good grouse dogs. Just sayin.


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## RecurveRx

Pointers for grouse? What'll they think of next...


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## k9wernet

RecurveRx said:


> Pointers for grouse? What'll they think of next...
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


No kidding! The King of the Uplands requires a lab, springer, GSP... you know, flushing dogs!

KW


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## 2ESRGR8

BIGSP said:


> I do believe that Bruce has bred some of his Coverdog pointers to horseback to, right Scott  ?


Even Bruce makes mistakes Brent. 

If'n you can get one of them scrawny little quail dogs to not run lines there is a fair chance it might get a grouse or three pointed.


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## N M Mechanical

2ESRGR8 said:


> Even Bruce makes mistakes Brent.
> 
> If'n you can get one of them scrawny little quail dogs to not run lines there is a fair chance it might get a grouse or three pointed.


A black and white pointer can point a grouse you are kidding right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ESRGR8

N M Mechanical said:


> A black and white pointer can point a grouse you are kidding right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Totally kidding.


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## FindTheBird

Nobody in the state (and few in the country) even come close to knowing grouse-bred pointers like Bruce Minard does--he should be your first call.


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## Mike McDonald

Are you kidding? Have you been reading the Spaniel Corner. Get a Springer or get a Cocker or better yet get a Sprocker. mac


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## Drifter Saver

FindTheBird said:


> Nobody in the state (and few in the country) even come close to knowing grouse-bred pointers like Bruce Minard does--he should be your first call.


In all honesty I would never limit myself. I am a student of all Pointer lines and fortunately have first hand knowledge of them from all over the country on a variety of species. Besides; Sinbad, McGoo, and Miller dogs weren't grouse trial, let alone grouse hunting, dogs.

Again, know what you want in a dog not where. Once you know what you want, you will know where to get it.


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## MIGSP

Laphroaig said:


> While most stock probably does come from horizon chasing quail dogs back a few generations; you are on the right track by going to those who have selectively (and exclusively) bred for grouse hunting. If I were in your shoes, looking for an English Pointer I'd look (in this order) at Bruce at HiFive, NorthWind Enterprises and Superior Pointers.


Northwinds has not produced a litter in a few years and probably won't for another year or two. If you are looking for linebred Elhew dogs Superior is a good start, but don't look past Nitro. Mark at Superior breeds back into Nitro. 

Bruce is an amazing guy to talk to with a ton of knowledge. The nicest part is that he is in your backyard. You would have the ability to see his dogs run, without having to drive 10 hours. Keep us updated in your search


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## Scott Berg

BIGSP said:


> Amen. I think the trials have a place but I think the guys who are consistently killing grouse aren't using trial bred dogs. Just sayin.


We all know people in certain circles and we probably simply don't know certain groups. I don't know anyone who kills what I would define as a lot of grouse with a GSP. That does not mean it does not happen.

We have a handful of very serious professional grouse guides in Minnesota and Wisconsin. All of them use trial bred Setters & Pointers. As a matter of fact, Steve Grossman who is the best know grouse guide in this part of the country has a pup coming today from Jon Fricke's litter out of Ch TerHaar's Elvis and a R/U CH female out of our Ch BB Jack and a winning grouse trial female.

If there is ANYONE in the country that knows more about putting grouse in the bag than Steve Grossman, I have not met him/her. Some of you may have seen him on grouse hunting shows on the tube.

SRB


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## crosswind

Scott Berg said:


> We all know people in certain circles and we probably simply don't know certain groups. I don't know anyone who kills what I would define as a lot of grouse with a GSP. That does not mean it does not happen.
> 
> We have a handful of very serious professional grouse guides in Minnesota and Wisconsin. All of them use trial bred Setters & Pointers. As a matter of fact, Steve Grossman who is the best know grouse guide in this part of the country has a pup coming today from Jon Fricke's litter out of Ch TerHaar's Elvis and a R/U CH female out of our Ch BB Jack and a winning grouse trial female.
> 
> If there is ANYONE in the country that knows more about putting grouse in the bag than Steve Grossman, I have not met him/her.
> 
> SRB


Based on somewhere around 25 years of grouse and pheasant hunting with pointers, setters, brits and shorthairs. As long as any of these dogs/breeds have the physical speed and stamina to stay up with the others they are just as equipped to find and handle grouse.
After making hundreds of trips to grouse country with these different breeds, often with a mixture of the breeds on the ground hunting together, the most common factor I could see that made one dog a better grouse dog then the others was usually stamina/speed related.
Yes there are other issues that can lead to poor grouse dogs, lack of hunt, lack of drive, lack of nose, or just plain stupid.
Given the shorthair and brits have the speed and stamina, they are every bit as adapt at pointing grouse as the pointers and setters. 
The issue with the shorthairs and the brits is both the breeds have such a diverse range from one extreme to the other in the speed and stamina department, the faster more athletic bloodlines and dogs are a significantly smaller percentage as compared to the pointers and setters breeds.


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## GSP Gal

Years ago, my uncle would get wonderful pointers from championship lines from his FIL in TN. I couldn't tell you the lines, but I got to road trip to pick one up. All I remember was a plantation and loads of quail.

He brought these pointers home, and lived in Mio. The first year the dog had to adjust to grouse and woodcock. Then to mid Michigan for pheasants. After the first year, they would adjust and become super dogs.

My dad and I had many of discussions regarding this, and we figured that if you had a well bred dog with great bird finding ability, drive, and brains, they should be able to adjust their game. 

A great nose, some brains, and strength to hunt all day is bred into well bred dogs. Your training/work is going to bring it all out.


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## BIGSP

Scott Berg said:


> We all know people in certain circles and we probably simply don't know certain groups. I don't know anyone who kills what I would define as a lot of grouse with a GSP. That does not mean it does not happen.
> 
> We have a handful of very serious professional grouse guides in Minnesota and Wisconsin. All of them use trial bred Setters & Pointers. As a matter of fact, Steve Grossman who is the best know grouse guide in this part of the country has a pup coming today from Jon Fricke's litter out of Ch TerHaar's Elvis and a R/U CH female out of our Ch BB Jack and a winning grouse trial female.
> 
> If there is ANYONE in the country that knows more about putting grouse in the bag than Steve Grossman, I have not met him/her. Some of you may have seen him on grouse hunting shows on the tube.
> 
> SRB


Scott, you're definitely right all our circles have different attributes. Mine have duck dogs and german dogs with a couple of setters and pointers mixed in. The most consistent grouse finder is a Drath. The weird thing is we don't have many grouse guides here in MI so, I don't have that reference point and lets face it most guys who hunt a lot aren't trailers so, again the circle is there and I'm not in it. Just saying your point is taken.


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## Laphroaig

crosswind said:


> After making hundreds of trips to grouse country with these different breeds, often with a mixture of the breeds on the ground hunting together, the most common factor I could see that made one dog a better grouse dog then the others was usually stamina/speed related.
> .



Would you please elaborate on this portion of your post, please? I have owned very speedy, highly conditioned "all day hunters"; deadly on other upland birds-failures in the grouse woods. Likewise, I have owned and hunted over slower dogs that have grouse "figured out".

I can think of several traits (to my understanding) more important than stamina/speed; but am interested in your perspective.


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## cross3700

Scott Berg said:


> We all know people in certain circles and we probably simply don't know certain groups. I don't know anyone who kills what I would define as a lot of grouse with a GSP. That does not mean it does not happen.
> 
> We have a handful of very serious professional grouse guides in Minnesota and Wisconsin. All of them use trial bred Setters & Pointers. As a matter of fact, Steve Grossman who is the best know grouse guide in this part of the country has a pup coming today from Jon Fricke's litter out of Ch TerHaar's Elvis and a R/U CH female out of our Ch BB Jack and a winning grouse trial female.
> 
> If there is ANYONE in the country that knows more about putting grouse in the bag than Steve Grossman, I have not met him/her. Some of you may have seen him on grouse hunting shows on the tube.
> 
> SRB


I understand your point, but I know several guys that do just fine hunting grouse behind their GSP's. I honestly think its more about exposure and learning how to handle grouse. You can't take a dog (GSP, setter or pointer) who has only hunted preserves and drop him in the grouse woods and expect him to do a bang up job.


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## crosswind

Laphroaig said:


> Would you please elaborate on this portion of your post, please? I have owned very speedy, highly conditioned "all day hunters"; deadly on other upland birds-failures in the grouse woods. Likewise, I have owned and hunted over slower dogs that have grouse "figured out".
> 
> I can think of several traits (to my understanding) more important than stamina/speed; but am interested in your perspective.


In that description I speak of comparing two dogs/breeds on the ground at the same time, to each other, not in terms of just being able to find grouse.
The dogs that can't seem to find grouse usually have some major flaw that I had stated.
That is excluding experience, which ever dog has to have to get the hang of pointing and holding pretty much any wild bird.

With that said to think that you have to have a pointer or setter to be able to find grouse is a joke, and there are many out there that buy into that thinking.
Nor does it take blazing speed and endurance to hunt grouse, but if you happen to have one on the ground that has more speed and endurance then the other ( all other traits being somewhat normal nose, brains, etc.) the slower dog is not gonna see much action.


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## Steelheadfred

cross3700 said:


> I understand your point, but I know several guys that do just fine hunting grouse behind their GSP's. I honestly think its more about exposure and learning how to handle grouse. You can't take a dog (GSP, setter or pointer) who has only hunted preserves and drop him in the grouse woods and expect him to do a bang up job.


Bella said your dead to her.

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## cross3700

Steelheadfred said:


> Bella said your dead to her.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I think I missed something. Who's Bella?


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## lking

I spent over a year researching my pointer. I talked to many breeders including Bryan Wood, Bruce Minard, Maurice Lindley, Mark Wendling, and on and on. 

My wife and I drove to Beulah and have never looked back. Bruce was top notch to talk to and I couldn't be happier with my pointer. 

Call Fritz, get a room in TC, go to that brewery place in TC with the good, dark beer, wake up with a headache, drive to Beulah, bring home your new grouse machine, and you will be pleased. If I had some extra cash right now I'd see if that Johnny x Mishap litter of Bruce's had any left. (unless you just want to give me one, Bruce!)


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## BIGSP

lking said:


> If I had some extra cash right now I'd see if that Johnny x Mishap litter of Bruce's had any left. (unless you just want to give me one, Bruce!)


I heard through the grapevine that litter is long gone. That is one litter I would've loved to have gotten my hands on just bad timing.


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## Steelheadfred

cross3700 said:


> I think I missed something. Who's Bella?


Sorry, phone posing, meant to pick on BIGSP, I'll fix when I get home.

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## Dave Medema

BIGSP said:


> Amen. I think the trials have a place but I think the guys who are consistently killing grouse aren't using trial bred dogs. Just sayin.



Ahem....

A nice afternoon last fall. Produced by trial bred dogs.









The day before..again, trial bred dogs











A quick 2 hour hunt...yup, trial dogs.









From a couple dogs ago....a a good afternoon, and......a truck full of trial dogs. 










And I don't take pics of everyday hunt, every bird, etc.


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## BIGSP

Dave Medema said:


> Ahem....
> 
> A nice afternoon last fall. Produced by trial bred dogs.
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> The day before..again, trial bred dogs
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> A quick 2 hour hunt...yup, trial dogs.
> 
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> 
> From a couple dogs ago....a a good afternoon, and......a truck full of trial dogs.
> 
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> And I don't take pics of everyday hunt, every bird, etc.


Show me another Dave. I thought I put a disclaimer about one guy I know  I guess my point is and you even told me those dogs take someone who can handle them and most of us can't or don't want to. Not sayin the dogs are unruly just sayin it takes someone special to walk in on a point from 150-200 yards away and be able to produce a bird for the shotgun.


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## Steelheadfred

I've hunted behind Rudy a few times, your son could handle her.

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## BIGSP

Steelheadfred said:


> I've hunted behind Rudy a few times, your son could handle her.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Once in a lifetime type dog and I've heard the same thing about some other greats doesn't mean that's the norm.


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## Scott Berg

BIGSP said:


> Show me another Dave. I thought I put a disclaimer about one guy I know  I guess my point is and you even told me those dogs take someone who can handle them and most of us can't or don't want to. Not sayin the dogs are unruly just sayin it takes someone special to walk in on a point from 150-200 yards away and be able to produce a bird for the shotgun.


It just absolutely amazes me how many people think trial bred dogs are hunted as if they are in a field trial. Most trial bred dogs will operate at 100-150 yards in the woods without a whole lot of handling effort. Yes, they do cover ground at a faster pace than most. Some guys do like them to roll and have them trained well enough where they are trustworthy to both handle to the hunter and handle birds at extreme range. That group might represents 15% of the people with trial bred dogs at most.

And, no, it is not uncommon at all for a dog to be able to hold birds while you walk to them 150 yards away. That's why some of us are so adament about certain types of dogs being the right tool for this particular task. Read Mark Wendling's discussion of Range. He articulates this very misunderstood topic as well as anyone I have seen put it in writing.
http://www.superiorpointers.com/range.html


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## Merimac

Dave Medema, I would like to see the Dave Medema Grouse cookbook.

Scott Berg, did you steal either of those Pups that Johnathon sent over? Holy Crap they were cute. Its too bad there was a lock on the dog box because they would have come home with me.

Ben


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## Scott Berg

Merimac said:


> Dave Medema, I would like to see the Dave Medema Grouse cookbook.
> 
> Scott Berg, did you steal either of those Pups that Johnathon sent over? Holy Crap they were cute. Its too bad there was a lock on the dog box because they would have come home with me.
> 
> Ben


No, they are going to two old friends. I should have bought a male for myself. Jon and I talked about it but we have a bunch of them already that we are evaluating right now. Steve is picking them up today and dropping Jim's off on his way home.


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## Jay Johnson

To the posters original question.

Based on their marketing on their websites Superior Pointers and Northwind Enterprises both in WI claim to be offering up grouse gun dog pointers.

Good luck in your search.


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## WestCoastHunter

Not everyone can handle a trial bred dog. The energy level is too high for many and the range coupled with the go getter attitude will freak a lot of mortal handlers out.

I always find this discussion interesting. Bob Wehle talks about "extending" a dogs range in one or both of his books and he indicated some harsh views on shock collars in Snakefoot.

Lots of guys here talk about teaching a dog to handle and often that involves using a shock collar. I wonder how Wehle would have felt about that. I've been in the field with a dog that has won its share of trials. His owner still has to zap him in training to the point of making the dog squeal, a lot of guys would give up on a dog like that. A lot want nothing to do with a dog like that but a number of trial bred dogs are like that.

Do field burning trial bred dogs make good hunting dogs? Sure. But they aren't for everyone, not by a long shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dave Medema

BIGSP said:


> Show me another Dave. I thought I put a disclaimer about one guy I know  I guess my point is and you even told me those dogs take someone who can handle them and most of us can't or don't want to. Not sayin the dogs are unruly just sayin it takes someone special to walk in on a point from 150-200 yards away and be able to produce a bird for the shotgun.



Ok.....grouse on the bottom, WC on top. Sports came from Atlanta, GA and gave me a $1000 tip for the best hunt of their lives. 











BTW what I said was the Kona is a handful. I can still use him for 
Any age hunter though. He held my 12 yo sons first grouse, first WC, first Phez, etc. my other trial bred dogs have been used to guide 70+ year old sports with recent hip replacements, 400 LB guys barely able to walk a popple stand, and out of shape desk jockeys puffing on cigs every 5 minutes. Just sayin......


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## Steelheadfred

WestCoastHunter said:


> Not everyone can handle a trial bred dog. The energy level is too high for many and the range coupled with the go getter attitude will freak a lot of mortal handlers out.
> 
> I always find this discussion interesting. Bob Wehle talks about "extending" a dogs range in one or both of his books and he indicated some harsh views on shock collars in Snakefoot.
> 
> Lots of guys here talk about teaching a dog to handle and often that involves using a shock collar. I wonder how Wehle would have felt about that. I've been in the field with a dog that has won its share of trials. His owner still has to zap him in training to the point of making the dog squeal, a lot of guys would give up on a dog like that. A lot want nothing to do with a dog like that but a number of trial bred dogs are like that.
> 
> Do field burning trial bred dogs make good hunting dogs? Sure. But they aren't for everyone, not by a long shot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A lot of non trial dogs need to be trained too and part of that is E Collar corrections. I'd make the argument though that a trial bred dog is harder to screw up, takes correction better, get's over training mistakes that many amateurs make, and many times learns faster; but you are right, they are not the dog for everyone. 

No right or wrong answer for this discussion.


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## Steelheadfred

Dave Medema said:


> 400 LB guys barely able to walk a popple stand, and out of shape desk jockeys puffing on cigs every 5 minutes. Just sayin......



Why you gotta pick on me like that?


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## Scott Berg

WestCoastHunter said:


> Not everyone can handle a trial bred dog. The energy level is too high for many and the range coupled with the go getter attitude will freak a lot of mortal handlers out.
> 
> I always find this discussion interesting. Bob Wehle talks about "extending" a dogs range in one or both of his books and he indicated some harsh views on shock collars in Snakefoot.
> 
> Lots of guys here talk about teaching a dog to handle and often that involves using a shock collar. I wonder how Wehle would have felt about that. I've been in the field with a dog that has won its share of trials. His owner still has to zap him in training to the point of making the dog squeal, a lot of guys would give up on a dog like that. A lot want nothing to do with a dog like that but a number of trial bred dogs are like that.
> 
> Do field burning trial bred dogs make good hunting dogs? Sure. But they aren't for everyone, not by a long shot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I use a shock collar about 2% of the time I am training. CH Berg's Head turner was a walking CH that I also placed in Open SD & AA stakes as a derby and she never wore a shock collar in our life. Same is true of CH Berg Brother's Hytest with the exception of an ecollar being used to break her of chasing deer which she loved to do.

Some trial dogs simply handle better than others but they all get lumped in together. And, what most people who are not accustomed to trial dogs remember is the poor examples they have seen. You can't just go out and acquire any trial dog where handling is a primary concern. We have put literally hundreds of dogs in the hands of modestly experienced hunters and they have no problem. The basis of comparison does not have to be the hottest AA pointer breeding in the country. There are plenty of options from trial lines that handle easily.


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## BIGSP

Steelheadfred said:


> A lot of non trial dogs need to be trained too and part of that is E Collar corrections. I'd make the argument though that a trial bred dog is harder to screw up, takes correction better, get's over training mistakes that many amateurs make, and many times learns faster; but you are right, they are not the dog for everyone.
> 
> No right or wrong answer for this discussion.


I agree with all of that. The drive in some of these dogs is just not what I'm looking for.


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## Jay Johnson

BIGSP said:


> Show me another Dave. I thought I put a disclaimer about one guy I know  I guess my point is and you even told me those dogs take someone who can handle them and most of us can't or don't want to. Not sayin the dogs are unruly just sayin it takes someone special to walk in on a point from 150-200 yards away and be able to produce a bird for the shotgun.


My hunting partner and I are certainly nothing special but quite often we walk long distances to a point and kill the grouse that the dog has been standing. 

He is 62 and I am 52 and neither of us are in anything better than average shape but we are able to take advantage of and greatly benefit from having at least one dog in our pair that we hunt being wide ranging.

This is our current wide reacher. She stretches our ability to hear the beepers point signal on a regular basis. We often find her because the closer working dog hears her point and then heads that way and backs and we get the benefit of seeing the direction she headed and hearing her beeper too. 

We have killed a lot of birds over this wide ranging dog and she is 50% field trial blood and 50% backyard gun dog blood.

As far as handling her I don't even bother because she is really so independent that it is futile to waste my breath. 

I just turn her loose and she goes where she goes and I just walk along briskly and try to stay in contact. I can get her to turn to a certain extent and after awhile get her to come but that is about it. 

The good thing is even though she runs a bit, she is great at keeping track of me so I seldom lose her for more than 5-10 minutes at a time.

My hunting partner who is really big on obedience thinks she is an unrefined savage. 

I like her:


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## Laphroaig

I think it boils down to the individual dog. I had an AA line bred Tekoa Mountain Sunrise dog, house dog all her life that was just a self-hunter plain and simple. You know, the kind of dog that in hour 5 runs bigger and more methodical on a Kansas hunt than hour 1. Breathtaking dog that held her birds 350 or more yards, which was her comfortable range. But, a disaster for me in the grouse woods.

Long Gone Boston, Stone tavern Matrix, Havelock Blacksmith......would you agree field trial dogs? My current field trial bred 2 year old. Per my garmin astro his comfortable range is 80 to 125 yards. Casts out 200-225 and back in. This dog handles better than ANY dog I have ever owned. Is he a fire breather? You bet your sweet bippy he is; but he maintains his field composure and he is absolutely in "partnership" with me in the woods.

Llewellin Setter...bootlicker, right? Runs bigger than my LG Boston son. Garmin had him at 425 yards in the woods. I figure he was chasing a deer. But still he is out there 175 plus yards doing his thing; pushes out 300-325 yards. He and I need to "have a talk"; as that ain't gonna cut it for a fat guy like me.


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## BIGSP

Laphroaig said:


> I think it boils down to the individual dog. I had an AA line bred Tekoa Mountain Sunrise dog, house dog all her life that was just a self-hunter plain and simple. You know, the kind of dog that in hour 5 runs bigger and more methodical on a Kansas hunt than hour 1. Breathtaking dog that held her birds 350 or more yards, which was her comfortable range. But, a disaster for me in the grouse woods.
> 
> Long Gone Boston, Stone tavern Matrix, Havelock Blacksmith......would you agree field trial dogs? My current field trial bred 2 year old. Per my garmin astro his comfortable range is 80 to 125 yards. Casts out 200-225 and back in. This dog handles better than ANY dog I have ever owned. Is he a fire breather? You bet your sweet bippy he is; but he maintains his field composure and he is absolutely in "partnership" with me in the woods.
> 
> Llewellin Setter...bootlicker, right? Runs bigger than my LG Boston son. Garmin had him at 425 yards in the woods. I figure he was chasing a deer. But still he is out there 175 plus yards doing his thing; pushes out 300-325 yards. He and I need to "have a talk"; as that ain't gonna cut it for a fat guy like me.


I think you kinda made my point. I hunted behind RU Champion Emmylou's Apple Jack and that dog was amazing. I've also hunted behind some other field trial stock that was amazing but, I've also hunted behind some that were really tough to handle. They were amazing to watch but, too much dog for me.

Again, I'm not bashing field trial dogs as I think they are important to bettering a breed, I just think you'd better know what you're looking for and make sure the parents are easy handling dogs (again this is for the most of us who don't want to have do a ton of training with our dogs). I have no doubt that there a dogs out there that can handle grouse at 150-200, I just think that is the exception rather than the rule (it may also be that most of us guys don't know how to come into a point at that distance either). Most of the times when my dog points a bird that far away from me, it's either a woodcock or I hear the grouse go out as I'm coming into the point. I have much better luck at under 125 yards per my Astro.


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## Laphroaig

BIGSP said:


> I think you kinda made my point.


Glad to be of help. Additionally, I find my dog situation in keeping with what Scott Berg shared. I look at Scott Berg kinda like I look at Charles Krauthammer (my favorite conservative political analyst). When in doubt, believe what these guys have to say.

I'm all for what you're saying about looking at parentage with eyes wide open. But, my (limited) experience as mentioned in my post was intended to make a point, which is that stereotypes aren't always correct. I bought a Llewellin pup to (presumably) get a close worker, and he ain't that. (which is fine). The LG Boston (FT Bred) dog I bought as a started dog to ensure I got what I wanted; which his hunting style flys in the face of "stereotype" field trial perceptions. As with most people, I like to start with a puppy after doing my homework as you suggest. But, to up ones odds of getting "what you want" I am an advocate of getting a started dog if the situation fits ones needs.

I'm off to hoist a sail!!


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## Bonz 54

Thanks guys for your in-put. But to get back on track, I trialed Brittanys through the 70's and into the 90's. I tried to stay exclusively in the Open Gun Dog class because what they wanted in the Open All Age was completely contrary to what I wanted in the Grouse woods. I will pick a dog from Grouse hunting stock. Bruce at High Five and Superior Pointers were and still are high on the list. I am leaning harder to a dog bred closely to the Elhew ideal.

I am also getting older and prefer to watch my dog work as opposed to walking through the woods looking at the GPS telling me where the dog is hunting. My best dog ever would never have made a trial dog, but she was an absolute stone cold bird finding machine. My step-Dad who was a "died-in-the-wool" setter guy, said he had never seen a dog with a better nose or better bird sense. And that right there is what I think are the two most important things to have in a Grouse dog. Thanks again for all the in-put. FRANK


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## Scott Berg

BIGSP said:


> I think you kinda made my point. I hunted behind RU Champion Emmylou's Apple Jack and that dog was amazing. I've also hunted behind some other field trial stock that was amazing but, I've also hunted behind some that were really tough to handle. They were amazing to watch but, too much dog for me.
> 
> Again, I'm not bashing field trial dogs as I think they are important to bettering a breed, I just think you'd better know what you're looking for and make sure the parents are easy handling dogs (again this is for the most of us who don't want to have do a ton of training with our dogs). I have no doubt that there a dogs out there that can handle grouse at 150-200, I just think that is the exception rather than the rule (it may also be that most of us guys don't know how to come into a point at that distance either). Most of the times when my dog points a bird that far away from me, it's either a woodcock or I hear the grouse go out as I'm coming into the point. I have much better luck at under 125 yards per my Astro.


Mr. Grush summed up this topic on the first page when he said "first and foremost it must have mental composure around game to be a better than average grouse dog. " Are dogs like this the exception as you suggest. I guess that depends on how you define the population. If we take all pointing dogs as the population, this might be true.

Grouse are one of the most difficult species of game birds for a dog to handle consistently. There is a considerable difference in this ability between breeds and even within those breeds that excell specifically at handling ruffed grouse. If grouse hunters were to focuses their selection of a grouse dog on those breeds developed very specifically for these traits and then narrow that focus down to the breeders who practiced the degree of selectivity necessary to identify superior individuals specifically for this task, dogs capable of this task become the norm, not the exception. 

Examples from last year ...
Client #1 - 2nd place in an open shooting dog grouse trial with a 15 month old puppy. The dog has routinely handled grouse since he was 6 months old.
Client #2 - Shot 58 pointed grouse over a dog that was 8 1/2 months old when the season started. He shot 22 over his 6 year old Britt.
Client #3&4 are from NC. They hunted with a guide in (WI) I have known for years who told me their dogs were nearly as good as his dogs that had seen hundreds of grouse after the first day. 
Clients 5-6 are from SC. Their dogs handle grouse very profociently from the very first day of their trip to WI and they harvested limits or near limits every day shooting only pointed birds. Their dogs are hunted on wild quail and encourage to extend their range.

I have several other examples from last year alone but this should be adaquate to make the point I am trying to make. Which is ...

Dogs that can handle grouse are not the exception among the sub-section of dogs that have been selectivity bred to do so. 

SRB


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## hehibrits

Wow, some people seem to think that grouse are some sort of mythological creature that only Harry Potter's dog would have a chance of scenting in perfect conditions. Grouse are one of the most predictable habit driven creatures I hunt or fish, kind of like salmon, find 54 degree water and baitfish and it's game on. Maybe I hunt areas filled with dumb birds any ole breed can find. Last season grouse were the easiest bird to put in the bag per hour hunted for our group of over the road hunters. We were well into three digits of birds shot, and didn't even hunt grouse that much. The best grouse dogs I have ever had the privilege of gunning over were pointing/flushing Munsterlanders. No offense to the magical breeds, but these dogs have had more birds shot over them imaginable, last year 5 guys shot over 100 birds with em in 6 days. The secret isn't the breed, but the fact that the owner and his three brothers are retired, grew up and live in the UP, and live off the land. I'd put my money on a hillbilly and a mutt before a city slicker with his thousand dollar pup any day if we kept track of birds on the plate. It only makes sense that people who put time, effort, research, and money into a hot pup "get into more birds" with said pup than old Clyde that your brother in law gave you, because now you are going to try and get a return on your investment and said pup wouldn't be purchased if you were going to hunt 3 days a season. I shoot 2-3 times as many birds over my young dogs than older ones, not because they are "better" or are part of the elite selected of the special, but because they need it. 

Not to hijack, and I don't have a Pointer in this fight, but a well bred dog of any breed started early on wild birds and given plenty of time on the ground should be able to produce birds for the bag. Don't forget you can only shoot five a day and you don't have to look too hard to find them.



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## Jay Johnson

Scott Berg said:


> If grouse hunters were to focuses their selection of a grouse dog on those breeds developed very specifically for these traits and then narrow that focus down to the breeders who practiced the degree of selectivity necessary to identify superior individuals specifically for this task, dogs capable of this task become the norm, not the exception.
> 
> SRB


I think that is about right and there are both professional breeders and avid hunters that have been a source for such prospects. 

I will say that the two sub-par grouse dogs I've owned have both been out of the heart of grouse dog field trial breeding.

The first was a CH. Jettrain x Patfinder female. She just never really became proficient at handling birds. Pointed maybe 4/10 as a lifetime average. The second was a CH. Stokely's Diablo Jake x RU-CH Pat's Blazer Banjo female. He was even worse as a bird handler and after giving him 2-1/2 seasons of opportunity he became a friends pet.

I wasted a lot of time walking through the woods waiting for these two dogs to "turn on". As such, I became a big proponent of dogs that show their ability to really handle grouse early and, I began putting no formal training into a dog until I see this demonstrated. 

That has now morphed to the point that today I don't do much of any formal training and just run the prospect into grouse and once they start standing them long enough for me to flush I shoot the grouse. 

As a result my dogs don't have much for finish or advanced manners but they are very happy and seem totally focused on finding and pointing grouse.


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## Laphroaig

hehibrits said:


> Wow, some people seem to think that grouse are some sort of mythological creature that only Harry Potter's dog would have a chance of scenting in perfect conditions. Grouse are one of the most predictable habit driven creatures I hunt or fish, kind of like salmon, find 54 degree water and baitfish and it's game on. Maybe I hunt areas filled with dumb birds any ole breed can find. Last season grouse were the easiest bird to put in the bag per hour hunted for our group of over the road hunters. We were well into three digits of birds shot, and didn't even hunt grouse that much. The best grouse dogs I have ever had the privilege of gunning over were pointing/flushing Munsterlanders. No offense to the magical breeds, but these dogs have had more birds shot over them imaginable, last year 5 guys shot over 100 birds with em in 6 days. The secret isn't the breed, but the fact that the owner and his three brothers are retired, grew up and live in the UP, and live off the land. I'd put my money on a hillbilly and a mutt before a city slicker with his thousand dollar pup any day if we kept track of birds on the plate
> 
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I really love it when you get on your high horse and post. Usually it includes a bragadocious emphasis on how you kill more of everything than everybody in the world though; which I'm sure is coming next.

No offense, but I'll take my cue from renowed grouse experts on the subject of how grouse rank uniquely in difficulty vs. other upland game birds over you. I'm not going to do your homework for you and show quote after quote from the experts saying just that. You can GOOGLE the subject and read the opinions of experts just like I did.

Are you confused, or are Musterlanders confused? I've never heard of a pointing/flushing breed as you described them in your post. Maybe the dog you witnessed was partially trained? Maybe you, like so many others count as "pointed", a dog that holds a few seconds then takes out the bird as "pointed"....I sure don't.

Tell you what...there is a field trial coming up in August. Why don't you grab your hillbilly friend, his world beater flushing/pointing Musterlander and enter him in the competition? I believe I heard there are going to be $1,000 pups and city slickers there that will take your bet; me included. Certainly this won't be a birds on the plate scenario you mentioned, but I'm starting to think you, your hillbillies, flusher/pointer aficionados might just be ground swatters too!!


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## kek25

Guess it depends on one's definition of difficult. :lol:


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## Laphroaig

Holy crap Hehibrits......no sooner than I post my response do I see you edited the hell out of your original post which I quoted in its entirety. You either had writers remorse, or got busy Googling the experts as I suggested; but if I didn't know better I'd swear you were an editor of a newspaper or something!

Heck, while your at it.....just go ahead and delete your post entirely; that'd work too


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## Laphroaig

kek25 said:


> Guess it depends on one's definition of difficult. :lol:
> 
> Grouse Hunting 2010 (New Brunswick!) - YouTube



NICE SHOOTIN' there Hehibrits!! I see you use a pump gun there too? Got the plug out too I suppose?


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## hehibrits

Lapdog,

These dogs are trained to point and hold until commanded to flush, silly. Your inexperience embarrassed me. These dogs also recover deer, bear, and are being used around Gwinn right now to help find bobcat dens so NFWS can collar pups. I try to stay off horses big and small unless I am out west working dogs off them. As far as numbers go, I didn't start the count on how many birds were killed by what breed, when and where, I just joined in with what I have saw over. Anybody who doesn't shoot more birds over an 8 1/2 month old top of the heap grouse dog than a six year old britt when the cycle is up is a fool. How many chances might that dog get when it is 3 and the cycle is at bottom?? Kind of makes sense if you think it out, but that doesn't seem to be your forte. I tell you what, I have some property up north that holds a lot of birds we can run on, I will PM you my number and we can set something up if you want to see where the bear ****s in the buckwheat. I might show in August, I have before. I really don't trial anymore...too incestuious. But here is what we accumulated when we did do it...special thanks to Lee and Jim Holman and Delmar Smith for the hardware. And they were bird dog guys, not kennel blind sub set seekers.











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## hehibrits

Lapdog, my phone times out and submits after 10 minutes, if you knew what you were talking about you would see it was "edited" four times. Also, PM sent, get ahold of me. 

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## hehibrits

Laphroaig said:


> NICE SHOOTIN' there Hehibrits!! I see you use a pump gun there too? Got the plug out too I suppose?


I actually use a RRL 28 gauge sleet/sleet, but thanks for caring. I do shoot a model 12 16 gauge sometimes, but it is plugged because we have this little law concerning migratory birds and how many shells a gun can hold. (I know your knowledge is limited, so, FYI woodcock are migratory).

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## hehibrits

For the record, Lapdog graciously declined my invitation...

Now...back to your discussion on why only trial pointers can handle grouse 

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## Laphroaig

hehibrits said:


> Lapdog,
> 
> These dogs are trained to point and hold until commanded to flush, silly. Your inexperience embarrassed me. These dogs also recover deer, bear, and are being used around Gwinn right now to help find bobcat dens so NFWS can collar pups. I try to stay off horses big and small unless I am out west working dogs off them. As far as numbers go, I didn't start the count on how many birds were killed by what breed, when and where, I just joined in with what I have saw over. Anybody who doesn't shoot more birds over an 8 1/2 month old top of the heap grouse dog than a six year old britt when the cycle is up is a fool. How many chances might that dog get when it is 3 and the cycle is at bottom?? Kind of makes sense if you think it out, but that doesn't seem to be your forte. I tell you what, I have some property up north that holds a lot of birds we can run on, I will PM you my number and we can set something up if you want to see where the bear ****s in the buckwheat. I might show in August, I have before. I really don't trial anymore...too incestuious. But here is what we accumulated when we did do it...special thanks to Lee and Jim Holman and Delmar Smith for the hardware. And they were bird dog guys, not kennel blind sub set seekers.
> 
> View attachment 19381
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


That's some impressive hardware, congrats. I was wanting to see the pointing/flushing Musterlander on exhibit though. Not interested in seeing bear, bear shyte nor buckwheat; but if you'll take a deep breath and calm down I'd love to hunt with you. I'm not interested in a dick measuring contest and unsafe hunting conditions, but if you are sincere PM me this fall and we can see if things work out.


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## Laphroaig

hehibrits said:


> For the record, Lapdog graciously declined my invitation...
> 
> Now...back to your discussion on why only trial pointers can handle grouse
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine



Dang Hehibrits, I can't type fast enough. 

This will have to wait until tonight as I'm off to win a sailboat race on Walloon lake.


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## hehibrits

%**


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## hehibrits

hehibrits said:


> The munsters are not mine sadly, the live by marquette. They are very nice dogs. They belong to my high school biology teacher. When I hunt it is me and my old man, so the dogs are the pointers and I am the flusher :/ We will get together this fall and end this sillyness. My point was simply, "there is more than one way to skin a cat" when people think only certain strains of certain breeds can handle certain birds. I know far more people that swear the only dog that can handle a grouse is a big old fashioned setter.
> 
> Good luck with the race.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine




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## chewy

hehibrits said:


> Wow, some people seem to think that grouse are some sort of mythological creature that only Harry Potter's dog would have a chance of scenting in perfect conditions. Grouse are one of the most predictable habit driven creatures I hunt or fish, kind of like salmon, find 54 degree water and baitfish and it's game on. Maybe I hunt areas filled with dumb birds any ole breed can find. Last season grouse were the easiest bird to put in the bag per hour hunted for our group of over the road hunters. We were well into three digits of birds shot, and didn't even hunt grouse that much. The best grouse dogs I have ever had the privilege of gunning over were pointing/flushing Munsterlanders. No offense to the magical breeds, but these dogs have had more birds shot over them imaginable, last year 5 guys shot over 100 birds with em in 6 days. The secret isn't the breed, but the fact that the owner and his three brothers are retired, grew up and live in the UP, and live off the land. I'd put my money on a hillbilly and a mutt before a city slicker with his thousand dollar pup any day if we kept track of birds on the plate. It only makes sense that people who put time, effort, research, and money into a hot pup "get into more birds" with said pup than old Clyde that your brother in law gave you, because now you are going to try and get a return on your investment and said pup wouldn't be purchased if you were going to hunt 3 days a season. I shoot 2-3 times as many birds over my young dogs than older ones, not because they are "better" or are part of the elite selected of the special, but because they need it.
> 
> Not to hijack, and I don't have a Pointer in this fight, but a well bred dog of any breed started early on wild birds and given plenty of time on the ground should be able to produce birds for the bag. Don't forget you can only shoot five a day and you don't have to look too hard to find them.
> 
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


couldn't agree more. 

and to think the breed if a setter or a pointer was bred to hunt grouse Is a crazy comment. 

in the realm of birds and trials. grouse are insignificant.


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## chewy

Laphroaig said:


> I
> No offense, but I'll take my cue from renowed grouse experts on the subject of how grouse rank uniquely


who are these so called experts? people trying to sell dogs or services on the internet?


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## BIGSP

chewy said:


> couldn't agree more.
> 
> and to think the breed if a setter or a pointer was bred to hunt grouse Is a crazy comment.
> 
> in the realm of birds and trials. grouse are insignificant.


Chewy,
My thoughts exactly a good dog is a good dog and to say that a great dog on pheasants, quail and prairie grouse wouldn't have puppies that would be good grouse prospects is preposterous. I think you need to look at a dogs natural range and pattern but puppies don't come out of the womb knowing what a grouse is. I know some guys with "quail bred dogs" that do pretty well on grouse with them. Pick the litter and the attributes you're looking for and expose them to the game you wish to play and they should do fine. But, Like Jaybird said, you can still have some misses.


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## Mike McDonald

Chewy, read the Texas, Georgia, and Alabama threads. Most of the wild bob white quail are gone other than on intensely managed private ground. There are desert quail in huntable numbers but I don't think may trials are run on them. That leaves Western Pheasants, Prairie grouse, Woodcock and Ruffed Grouse for wild bird trials. It doesn't seem to me that "in the realm of birds and trials. grouse are insignificant."
Brent, maybe my heads up my a__ again but I've hunted wild phesants, huns, prairie grouse, sage grouse, bob white, woodcock and ruffed grouse in Georgia, Texas, Kansas, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, the Dakotas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Saskatchewan, Ontario, New York, and Michigan. In my limited experience it is the most unusual to see a dog that can really handle ruffed grouse. You can make an argument for phez, but I believe there are far more dogs that handle phesants well than that handleruffed grouse well. The other birds are just not that tough.
mac


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## Scott Berg

chewy said:


> couldn't agree more.
> 
> and to think the breed if a setter or a pointer was bred to hunt grouse Is a crazy comment.
> 
> in the realm of birds and trials. grouse are insignificant.


There are some things about the history of these breeds and genetics you obviously do not grasp. The traits that are the most influential in making great grouse dogs are the traits that have the focus of Pointer and Setters breeding throughout the history of these breeds. 

If you elect to believe that the breeds that were developed to hunt fur and a multitude of other attributes are going to have the same proficiency as the breeds developed specifically for these traits, the disconnect is your lack of understanding of basic genetics.


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## BIGSP

Mike McDonald said:


> Chewy, read the Texas, Georgia, and Alabama threads. Most of the wild bob white quail are gone other than on intensely managed private ground. There are desert quail in huntable numbers but I don't think may trials are run on them. That leaves Western Pheasants, Prairie grouse, Woodcock and Ruffed Grouse for wild bird trials. It doesn't seem to me that "in the realm of birds and trials. grouse are insignificant."
> Brent, maybe my heads up my a__ again but I've hunted wild phesants, huns, prairie grouse, sage grouse, bob white, woodcock and ruffed grouse in Georgia, Texas, Kansas, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, the Dakotas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Saskatchewan, Ontario, New York, and Michigan. In my limited experience it is the most unusual to see a dog that can really handle ruffed grouse. You can make an argument for phez, but I believe there are far more dogs that handle phesants well than that handleruffed grouse well. The other birds are just not that tough.
> mac


Mac reread what I posted. I said those good dogs offspring if brought up on ruffed grouse could become great.


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## Firemedic

Frank, I like my coturnix-bred pointers. You should look into those lines. Ya can pick one up fer bout 400 bucks. Works jist as well. Save that extra money for gas and groceries.


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## fishing-finlander

i have a wimey.....hunts every upland game bird in this state...with little to no training beyond field hand, and whistle...brace is about 50 yrds naturally, and honestly there maybe "bird'er dogs"...but i dont have to chase mine, comes, sits, and heals....my buddies with springers, vislas, and other short hair pointers, are amazed...imo, the best dog for michigan is a whimey....natural brace, not hyper, calm and cool, and i hate nothing more than working a field at a dogs pace...my dog, works at mine...low and slow...i would put her up against any...i know those who use them in field trials, thats fine...but i dont hunt that way...low and slow for me...im lazzy

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## BIGSP

fishing-finlander said:


> i have a wimey.....hunts every upland game bird in this state...with little to no training beyond field hand, and whistle...brace is about 50 yrds naturally, and honestly there maybe "bird'er dogs"...but i dont have to chase mine, comes, sits, and heals....my buddies with springers, vislas, and other short hair pointers, are amazed...imo, the best dog for michigan is a whimey....natural brace, not hyper, calm and cool, and i hate nothing more than working a field at a dogs pace...my dog, works at mine...low and slow...i would put her up against any...i know those who use them in field trials, thats fine...but i dont hunt that way...low and slow for me...im lazzy
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I walk fast. I like fast dogs. Different strokes for different folks. I am a believer in buying on odds. There are four major breeds I will stick with those. I personally think two of those breeds typically perform better than others on grouse. We can debate what four and what two.


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## hehibrits

Scott Berg said:


> There are some things about the history of these breeds and genetics you obviously do not grasp. The traits that are the most influential in making great grouse dogs are the traits that have the focus of Pointer and Setters breeding throughout the history of these breeds.
> 
> If you elect to believe that the breeds that were developed to hunt fur and a multitude of other attributes are going to have the same proficiency as the breeds developed specifically for these traits, the disconnect is your lack of understanding of basic genetics.


Did you steal this from Jimmy the Greek? So, if Hitler owned a grouse dog what would it be? And I guess we have evolved to the point now where a black man can play quarterback and only pointers and setters are true bird dogs...wow, time is passing me by backward :/

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## Mike McDonald

Brent, my bad. mac


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## BIGSP

Mike McDonald said:


> Brent, my bad. mac


No worries, I may not have written it the way I meant it. I too agree that it takes grouse to make a grouse dog. A good pheasant or preserve dog is probably not going to be a fantastic grouse dog out of the gates.


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## chewy

Mike McDonald said:


> Chewy, read the Texas, Georgia, and Alabama threads. Most of the wild bob white quail are gone other than on intensely managed private ground. There are desert quail in huntable numbers but I don't think may trials are run on them. That leaves Western Pheasants, Prairie grouse, Woodcock and Ruffed Grouse for wild bird trials. It doesn't seem to me that "in the realm of birds and trials. grouse are insignificant."
> Brent, maybe my heads up my a__ again but I've hunted wild phesants, huns, prairie grouse, sage grouse, bob white, woodcock and ruffed grouse in Georgia, Texas, Kansas, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, the Dakotas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Saskatchewan, Ontario, New York, and Michigan. In my limited experience it is the most unusual to see a dog that can really handle ruffed grouse. You can make an argument for phez, but I believe there are far more dogs that handle phesants well than that handleruffed grouse well. The other birds are just not that tough.
> mac


sharptail. grouse trials are insignificant and aren't used to breed all age dogs. 

it is my opinion grouse trials breed for the wrong reasons. they breed a close working dog that doesn't find many birds and false points.
well the false pointing is natural for setters. ha


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## chewy

Scott Berg said:


> There are some things about the history of these breeds and genetics you obviously do not grasp. The traits that are the most influential in making great grouse dogs are the traits that have the focus of Pointer and Setters breeding throughout the history of these breeds.
> 
> If you elect to believe that the breeds that were developed to hunt fur and a multitude of other attributes are going to have the same proficiency as the breeds developed specifically for these traits, the disconnect is your lack of understanding of basic genetics.


another ignorAnt quote from you the self proclaimed dog and grouse expert 

do you really think a German short hair pointer is the same dog that was imported ti the us? nooooo. it has a ton of pointer in it. with that said my German shorthair is a pointer with its tail docked and you still say it is inferior. you have breed blindess


you may have some people buffaloed but you don't me.


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## Laphroaig

chewy said:


> who are these so called experts? people trying to sell dogs or services on the internet?


"The Ruffed Grouse is the wariest of the species hunted by bird dogs, the wisest and hardest to handle". ~Henry P. Davis, famed field trial judge and author of Training Your Own Bird Dog.

"The dog which can find and successfully point Ruffed Grouse so as to give his handler a shot is the highest type of Pointer or Setter. The Ruffed Grouse is a very warry bird; it takes a steady going, high headed intelligent dog to point him". ~ C.B. Whitford, from Training The Bird Dog.

"There are two kinds of hunting, ordinary hunting and Grouse Hunting". ~ Aldo Leopoldo 

Not sure you know how to use GOOGLE :lol: here's three to get you started.


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## Laphroaig

chewy said:


> another ignorAnt quote from you the self proclaimed dog and grouse expert
> 
> do you really think a German short hair pointer is the same dog that was imported ti the us? nooooo. it has a ton of pointer in it. with that said my German shorthair is a pointer with its tail docked and you still say it is inferior. you have breed blindess
> 
> 
> you may have some people buffaloed but you don't me.



Ok, let me get this straight...you just told us that you know more about pointing dog genetics that Scott Berg? I've been to his website. Can you post a link to your website so I can research you as I did Scott Berg?

Ok, so there are no pure German Shorthairs in the U.S; only hybrid? News to me.

Ok, you said your "German Shorthair" is a Pointer with its tail docked; wouldn't that make it a Pointer? 

:help: :help:


----------



## Merimac

chewy said:


> sharptail. grouse trials are insignificant and aren't used to breed all age dogs.
> 
> it is my opinion grouse trials breed for the wrong reasons. they breed a close working dog that doesn't find many birds and false points.
> well the false pointing is natural for setters. ha
> 
> another ignorAnt quote from you the self proclaimed dog and grouse expert
> 
> do you really think a German short hair pointer is the same dog that was imported ti the us? nooooo. it has a ton of pointer in it. with that said my German shorthair is a pointer with its tail docked and you still say it is inferior. you have breed blindess
> 
> 
> you may have some people buffaloed but you don't me.
> __________________
> stb- troll




Drinking and typing?


----------



## Laphroaig

chewy said:


> sharptail. grouse trials are insignificant and aren't used to breed all age dogs.
> 
> it is my opinion grouse trials breed for the wrong reasons. they breed a close working dog that doesn't find many birds and false points.
> well the false pointing is natural for setters. ha



Look up Long Gone Madison.

Close working?.....nope.

Doesn't find many birds? Nope.

You need to quit while you're behind. 

Why don't you enter your dog in the Grouse Challenge mentioned in the other thread against Scott Berg who you trashed?


----------



## Duece22

Laphroaig said:


> Ok, let me get this straight...you just told us that you know more about pointing dog genetics that Scott Berg? I've been to his website. Can you post a link to your website so I can research you as I did Scott Berg?
> 
> Ok, so there are no pure German Shorthairs in the U.S; only hybrid? News to me.
> 
> Ok, you said your "German Shorthair" is a Pointer with its tail docked; wouldn't that make it a Pointer?
> 
> :help: :help:


We're basing credibility off websites now? 


RH


----------



## WestCoastHunter

If the shorthair has been bred with so much Pointer that it essentially is a Pointer, well, I'd say that was a lot of wasted breeding to just go out and create what a lot of people have been already using for years. In fact I'd say it just proves the superiority of Pointers. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Laphroaig

Duece22 said:


> We're basing credibility off websites now?
> 
> 
> RH



Sure, why not? I can read Scott Bergs philosophy of breeding and genetics right there. He seems credible to me based on my research. Chewy? Let's see what he has accomplished. Perhaps you are his personal secretary with intimate knowledge of his credentials. If so, post them up.

I just feel like a guy who bashes someone who is a recognized professional in 
the pointing dog world needs to turn his cards over for us to see what he's got on his resume'.


----------



## Duece22

Laphroaig said:


> Sure, why not? I can read Scott Bergs philosophy of breeding and genetics right there. He seems credible to me based on my research. Chewy? Let's see what he has accomplished. Perhaps you are his personal secretary with intimate knowledge of his credentials. If so, post them up.
> 
> I just feel like a guy who bashes someone who is a recognized professional in
> the pointing dog world needs to turn his cards over for us to see what he's got on his resume'.


I don't have affiliation to either guy. I know SB has a lot of knowledge and experience on grouse bred trial dogs. I also believe Chewy has some back ground in trialling as well but that is his choice to disclose or not. I think it creates good discussion to have multiple points of view, your never going to agree with everything you read on this site. 

My point is that you can't believe everything you read on the internet or what a webpage is like, and make assumptions off of it because it is not all true ( this is a general statement not anything against SB website, I have actually never even been to it. Lol)

Alright back to the topic. I will take a setter out of meat dog stock (grouse meat) mixed with a little trial blood throughout the pedigree. 


RH


----------



## Bonz 54

Nothing like High Jacking a Thread....:rant: FRANK


----------



## Laphroaig

Bonz 54 said:


> Nothing like High Jacking a Thread....:rant: FRANK



Sorry about that as I am as guilty as anyone. I gave you three ideas in an earlier post. You posted you were down to two of them, yourself. You have been given some excellent recommendations.....pull the trigger and let us know what you wind up with.

In the mean time, some of us hacks, myself included have nothing better to do from time to time than get in a pissing match. Some like to participate, some like to read and laugh their arses off at us go at it. It's all good. Threads do get hijacked when folks feel like you got enough good responses to your OP. Good luck with your choice. When you get REAL serious, get a Setter....


----------



## Steelheadfred

Bonz 54 said:


> Nothing like High Jacking a Thread....:rant: FRANK



Frank,

I'll tell you what I know, as a staunch close working dog fan, I've had the opportunity to hunt with Bruce and a decent number of his dogs owned by others. Everything from 8 month old pups to Multiple Champion dogs.

I never felt as a guy with flushing dogs, we were at a disadvantage with his dogs down because of range or handling. I felt I would be comfortable handing them and developing them if I were to buy one. 

I would contact Find the Bird, and try and get together when Mike has Lady and Rock out and see first hand. 

I support the suggestion Grush made to get a dog out of Rock too, he is a level headed dog regardless of the breed, line of dogs.

Fritz


----------



## FindTheBird

Steelheadfred said:


> Frank,
> 
> I'll tell you what I know, as a staunch close working dog fan, I've had the opportunity to hunt with Bruce and a decent number of his dogs owned by others. Everything from 8 month old pups to Multiple Champion dogs.
> 
> I never felt as a guy with flushing dogs, we were at a disadvantage with his dogs down because of range or handling. I felt I would be comfortable handing them and developing them if I were to buy one.
> 
> I would contact Find the Bird, and try and get together when Mike has Lady and Rock out and see first hand.
> 
> I support the suggestion Grush made to get a dog out of Rock too, he is a level headed dog regardless of the breed, line of dogs.
> 
> Fritz


I'd be more than happy to help-out any way that I can, but I can't show-off my HiFive dogs right now. I tore-up a knee the first day of training season and I think there's a chance I'll be on crutches for a while (I'll know more this week). Consequently (and because of some early trials) I sent Rock to Bruce early this year and I also sent Lady who I planned to keep home with me for training/trialing/hunting.

Frank, Bruce generally likes to show-off his dogs and if I were a betting man, I think your changes of seeing some in action this Summer are probably pretty good. Looks like you're doing you're homework and whatever the source of the dog you wind-up with, I'm sure you'll be happy.

Yesterday (Sunday) on his way back North, Bruce stopped at the dog of the year ceremony for Michigan and US Complete Great Lakes Region. Lady got runner-up Great Lakes walking derby (I believe she wound-up 4th in the coverdog standings) Bruce & Lady are dead-center, first row:


----------



## Mike McDonald

Early in this thread I recommended a Sprocker which are rarely available. There is a litter of the even more rare Sprunsterlanders in the classifieds. mac


----------



## gundogguy

Mike McDonald said:


> Early in this threat I recommended a Sprocker which are rarely available. There is a litter of the even more rare Sprunsterlanders in the classifieds. mac


So instead of "whoa" or "hup" the command must be "whhup"


----------



## WestCoastHunter

Steelheadfred said:


> Frank,
> 
> I'll tell you what I know, as a staunch close working dog fan, I've had the opportunity to hunt with Bruce and a decent number of his dogs owned by others. Everything from 8 month old pups to Multiple Champion dogs.
> 
> I never felt as a guy with flushing dogs, we were at a disadvantage with his dogs down because of range or handling. I felt I would be comfortable handing them and developing them if I were to buy one.
> 
> I would contact Find the Bird, and try and get together when Mike has Lady and Rock out and see first hand.
> 
> I support the suggestion Grush made to get a dog out of Rock too, he is a level headed dog regardless of the breed, line of dogs.
> 
> Fritz


Rocky is a great dog and were I in the market I would seriously consider a pup out of him.

That said, he's a hand full and probably not the best choice for someone not wanting a hot rod of a dog. Rockabye Baby (Lady), a pup that was the result of a litter from Rocky, would be a better choice.

Watch both run and you'll see what I mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ESRGR8

WestCoastHunter said:


> Rocky is a great dog ....
> 
> That said, he's a hand full


Really? I think he's EXTREMELY easy. I guess it's all a matter of perception.
That said, I steer people that way because I think he is easy and hopefully produces easy when bred to quality bitches.


----------



## Steelheadfred

2ESRGR8 said:


> Really? I think he's EXTREMELY easy. I guess it's all a matter of perception.
> That said, I steer people that way because I think he is easy and hopefully produces easy when bred to quality bitches.



That was my thought too, when I've seen him go.


----------



## Scott Berg

2ESRGR8 said:


> Really? I think he's EXTREMELY easy. I guess it's all a matter of perception.
> That said, I steer people that way because I think he is easy and hopefully produces easy when bred to quality bitches.


Scott,

Good advice. Rock obviously has the exceptional traits as a grouse dog. 

Rocks ancestry is also a very good example of why the conventional wisdom is over simplified. What I mean by that is that the influence of the vast majority of the Pointer world is horseback trials. Rocks is out of a sire (Elhew Sinbad) known for tremendous athleticism and run and his pedigree is a whos who of the horseback trial Pointer world. Sinbads sire was Island Grove Brute who qualified to go to Ames. Sinbads mother (Elhew Swami) was of the greatest Pointer females to ever be trialed and she is in the HOF. Rocks mother, NCH High Fives Wrangler was a product of Miller and Damascus breeding. In other words, his ancestry is horseback dogs. 

There are key attributes that make exceptional grouse dogs and pedigrees like Rocks are the epitome of an exceptional selection process. Watching Bruce over the years there is no doubt in my mind there are very few breeders with his knowledge and breeding savvy.

SRB


----------



## BIGSP

Don't get a pointer they run in straight lines and can't point grouse. Especially the non trial bred ones.


----------



## hehibrits

Scott, I agree with you about the percentage of people who selectively breed and the breeds they represent. I think there is more of an explanation than just people trying to breed crappy bird dogs. These other breeds have much more demand for "pets" than pointers, probably by about 10:1 Now don't get me wrong, I know how docile a pointer is in the house, but people who don't hunt don't want to deal with the assumed table clearing tail, slobber, and excercise demands. Then, there is the show aspect. A lot of breeds are schismed because of show dog attributes vs. Hunting dog atts, compared to cockers, setters, goldens, and many others the pointer doesn't have nearly the rift. Probably because of the hair thing, nothing to crimp and curl  
So, if you decide to buy a poorly bred dog of any type I would say you are doing yourself a disservice. But to think there aren't discriminating breeders of all types and this hasn't been going on for decades you are mistaken. The root of our dogs goes back in direct succession 61 years tomorrow when Holley Haven Dutchess HOF was born where metro airport is now. And have been very selectively bred to some of the finest dogs of each respective era. There are plenty of other people of the other "lesser" hunting breeds that take blood and titles much more serious than I do, you just have to find them and look at a little paper work and a little field work. Just like the board came up with 3-4 kennels for pointers, I could come up with 3-4 kennels for britts who's dogs have been bred for decades to be all age horseback champions. You must have crossed paths with Chad Holman at some point, he's third generation.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## crosswind

Laphroaig said:


> I didn't intrepret his post to say non Setter / Pointer breeds could not handle ruffed grouse. I believe the point was that overall, versatile breeds are not going to be as PROFICIENT on ruffed grouse as pointers and setters
> This is where I call BS and it cracks me up. Once again I have hauled all 4 breeds to grouse country for over twenty years, I own both pointers and shorthairs and have owned setters. Everyone directly from the field trial lines. there AINT NO DIFFERENCE in the breeds. There are lots differences dog to dog.
> .
> who have for generations been, generally speaking, intensely and purposely bred with the very traits that experts agree it takes to make a great grouse dog. There is no harm or controversary in that; at least there shouldn't be.
> 
> The ultimate test is the ruffed grouse trials. It equalizes everything.
> Perhaps in your mind it does. Look it is a known fact that the shorthairs don't get a fair shack in those trials. Why? Hell I don't know or really even care. I hear it is somewhat better these days, for what thats worth.
> 
> Joe Smith with a Pudlepointer may kill more ruffed grouse than Bob Jones with an English Pointer/or Setter because: he is a better shot, he hunts better land, his dog is more experienced etc...etc...etc...
> 
> Ruffed grouse Field trials take away all that bickering, pissing and moaning. Not RGS trials not NSTRA trials. Only the wild Grouse trials.
> 
> If the versatile breeds are as proficient as the Setters and Pointers on Ruffed Grouse, as you claim; why aren't there more competing and in the winners circle in a completely equalized sport as the coverdog trials? The versitiles enter, win (dominate in some cases) the NSTRA trials and others; so why aren't we seeing the same result in the Wild Ruffed Grouse trial circuit? That may be a good question to adress at your banquets.LOL As I said it is a know fact they are not judged on the same scale.
> Since you bring up the NSTRA trials ( where all breeds are run under the same judging guidelines) Studies show that pretty much each breed places relative to the precentage of entries per breed.
> So if they can perform heads up with the pointers and setters in that trial format why would it be different in any other.Wild birds my ****.
> 
> I'm not bashing versatile breeds at all and never will as I have hunted over several that we're really nice.


 But in your mind yours can find and handle grouse better, because it is a setter. LOL Give me a break dude.


----------



## kek25

The only thing I'd add as a response to Frank is give some thought to a started dog. I believe started dogs from kennels like Hi Five will be well socialized. I've seen the videos Bruce has posted with he and Jenny in the yard with a litter of pups. I've walked a field with Scott Townsend as he threw pigeons for young pups to run and chase, and I've seen the videos posted by Scott Berg working young dogs that have all the confidence in the world thanks to proper socialization. I believe all reputable breeders (Crosswind, Berg Brothers, Hi Five, etc.) have a socialization process that is a fundamental part of their programs.


----------



## Scott Berg

hehibrits said:


> Scott, I agree with you about the percentage of people who selectively breed and the breeds they represent. I think there is more of an explanation than just people trying to breed crappy bird dogs. These other breeds have much more demand for "pets" than pointers, probably by about 10:1 Now don't get me wrong, I know how docile a pointer is in the house, but people who don't hunt don't want to deal with the assumed table clearing tail, slobber, and excercise demands. Then, there is the show aspect. A lot of breeds are schismed because of show dog attributes vs. Hunting dog atts, compared to cockers, setters, goldens, and many others the pointer doesn't have nearly the rift. Probably because of the hair thing, nothing to crimp and curl
> So, if you decide to buy a poorly bred dog of any type I would say you are doing yourself a disservice. But to think there aren't discriminating breeders of all types and this hasn't been going on for decades you are mistaken. The root of our dogs goes back in direct succession 61 years tomorrow when Holley Haven Dutchess HOF was born where metro airport is now. And have been very selectively bred to some of the finest dogs of each respective era. There are plenty of other people of the other "lesser" hunting breeds that take blood and titles much more serious than I do, you just have to find them and look at a little paper work and a little field work. Just like the board came up with 3-4 kennels for pointers, I could come up with 3-4 kennels for britts who's dogs have been bred for decades to be all age horseback champions. You must have crossed paths with Chad Holman at some point, he's third generation.


Don't get me wrong, there are very good breeders in every breed. I don't think that anything that not a Pointer can't be a great dog. Keep in mind that elect to pursue a breed that is not a Pointer. I am simply trying to shed some light on a primary premise of breeding. I am very aware of the devotion and pride breeders and that many breeders of all breeds follow selective breeding practices but that degree of selectivity varies considerably amongst breeds and breeders.

I said in my previous post, selectivity is a matter of degree and the top Pointer breeders have followed a considerably higher degree of selectivity compared to even the top breeders of other breeds. How many Brittany breeders (or any other breed) can you name that evalaute 10 females for every one they breed. I don't mean this to be rhetorical. How many can you name? This is a premise that is somehow overlooked. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of breeders don't evaluate 5 much less 10 females in an effort to identy elite breeding prospects with the exception of top Pointer breeders.

Discriminatory selection is probably the most basic of all breeding principles. When a breeder honestly assesses all of the traits that make up a great bird dog, only a very small percentage of any breed are truly great breding prospects. The degree to which we accept variance for this very high standard is going to impact the relative quality of the gene pool in a breeding program. The fact that Pointer breeders have maintained the most selective practices of any sporting breed over the past 50 years is very hard to dispute.

SRB


----------



## hehibrits

Scott Berg said:


> Don't get me wrong, there are very good breeders in every breed. I don't think that anything that not a Pointer can't be a great dog. Keep in mind that elect to pursue a breed that is not a Pointer. I am simply trying to shed some light on a primary premise of breeding. I am very aware of the devotion and pride breeders and that many breeders of all breeds follow selective breeding practices but that degree of selectivity varies considerably amongst breeds and breeders.
> 
> How many Brittany breeders (or any other breed) can you name that evalaute 10 females for every one they breed. I don't mean this to be rhetorical. How many can you name?
> 
> The fact that Pointer breeders have maintained the most selective practices of any sporting breed over the past 50 years is very hard to dispute.
> 
> SRB


Three come to mind right now, Holman Kennels sees far more than 10 dogs to get a brood matron, Biebel Brittanys in Kentucky just got a new bitch after evaluating about 25 dogs, some of which I helped with in the grouse woods, Auten Kennels run through more than 10 females to get a matron. Those are the ones I am sure of that I know first hand. Probably why they have winning dogs. They are all in the Midwest, I am sure if you look more out west you could find a few more. 

At the macro level are pointer breeders more selective, yes...in the micro level no.

Now for the disclaimer...are pointers the most athletic and physically superior bird dogs and much better suited to handle the heat than most breeds, absolutely.



Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## WestCoastHunter

hehibrits said:


> Now don't get me wrong, I know how docile a pointer is in the house, but people who don't hunt don't want to deal with the assumed table clearing tail, slobber, and excercise demands. Then, there is the show aspect.


They only get docile in the house once they clear two years. Based on what I saw at Pointers from Oz, when they were still in operation, the majority of field bred Pointers (the show variety seldom show up in rescue) are either between the ages of 0-2 or they are senior dogs that someone didn't want anymore.

Even as rescues a fair number of them got returned by non-hunting families that couldn't keep up with their exercise demands. 

It's why I chuckle any time everyone gets all defensive about trial dogs and their energy levels. Show me sleepy trial bred dogs and I'll show you well exercised, mentally stimulated, dogs. No matter the breed they are not for everyone.



hehibrits said:


> A lot of breeds are schismed because of show dog attributes vs. Hunting dog atts, compared to cockers, setters, goldens, and many others the pointer doesn't have nearly the rift. Probably because of the hair thing, nothing to crimp and curl


Show Pointers are actually pretty rare and I would not suggest buying one for hunting purposes unless you're _very_ choosy. Some of those breeders are breeding absolute crap. If going that route I would suggest looking for genes imported from Europe and even some out crossing to American field trial lines. Birdsboro here in MI is probably one of the better ones for that. But you'll get a softer, slower developing, dog going that route.


----------



## WestCoastHunter

Scott Berg said:


> Pointers were first brought to the US in the 1880s.
> 
> SRB


Just for the sake of discussion, can we even assume that the dogs brought in during this timeframe were like Pointers we know today? I know the obvious answer is no, but I'm thinking of the introduction of the Bull Terrier to the breed. Didn't that occur in the early 20th century?


----------



## Steelheadfred

SB, can you take us through how you evaluate 50 bitches a year? Seems daunting, but might offer some clarification.

Hobby breeders might have a different view on the positives of less dogs when it comes to evaluation.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## chewy

Laphroaig said:


> I didn't intrepret his post to say non Setter / Pointer breeds could not handle ruffed grouse. I believe the point was that overall, versatile breeds are not going to be as PROFICIENT on ruffed grouse as pointers and setters who have for generations been, generally speaking, intensely and purposely bred with the very traits that experts agree it takes to make a great grouse dog. There is no harm or controversary in that; at least there shouldn't be.
> 
> The ultimate test is the ruffed grouse trials. It equalizes everything. Joe Smith with a Pudlepointer may kill more ruffed grouse than Bob Jones with an English Pointer/or Setter because: he is a better shot, he hunts better land, his dog is more experienced etc...etc...etc...
> 
> Ruffed grouse Field trials take away all that bickering, pissing and moaning. Not RGS trials not NSTRA trials. Only the wild Grouse trials.
> 
> If the versatile breeds are as proficient as the Setters and Pointers on Ruffed Grouse, as you claim; why aren't there more competing and in the winners circle in a completely equalized sport as the coverdog trials? The versitiles enter, win (dominate in some cases) the NSTRA trials and others; so why aren't we seeing the same result in the Wild Ruffed Grouse trial circuit?
> 
> I'm not bashing versatile breeds at all and never will as I have hunted over several that we're really nice.


you are ignorant to other breeds. do you think that AF horseback German shorthairs judge to a different standard than a pointer or setter? they don't. 

if pointers and setters are bred to hunt grouse then why wouldn't a shorthair? they use the same standards in judging. 

shorthairs don't compete in coverdog because of their tail length. that's a well known fact and has been said to me many times from big names in the cover dig circuit. a short tailed dog isn't going to win anything with significance in a grouse dog trial. why??? it's political and breed blindness.


----------



## chewy

Scott Berg said:


> Don't get me wrong, there are very good breeders in every breed. I don't think that anything that not a Pointer can't be a great dog. Keep in mind that elect to pursue a breed that is not a Pointer. I am simply trying to shed some light on a primary premise of breeding. I am very aware of the devotion and pride breeders and that many breeders of all breeds follow selective breeding practices but that degree of selectivity varies considerably amongst breeds and breeders.
> 
> I said in my previous post, selectivity is a matter of degree and the top Pointer breeders have followed a considerably higher degree of selectivity compared to even the top breeders of other breeds. How many Brittany breeders (or any other breed) can you name that evalaute 10 females for every one they breed. I don't mean this to be rhetorical. How many can you name? This is a premise that is somehow overlooked. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of breeders don't evaluate 5 much less 10 females in an effort to identy elite breeding prospects with the exception of top Pointer breeders.
> 
> Discriminatory selection is probably the most basic of all breeding principles. When a breeder honestly assesses all of the traits that make up a great bird dog, only a very small percentage of any breed are truly great breding prospects. The degree to which we accept variance for this very high standard is going to impact the relative quality of the gene pool in a breeding program. The fact that Pointer breeders have maintained the most selective practices of any sporting breed over the past 50 years is very hard to dispute.
> 
> SRB


I will disupte that. first you have to look at the total number of dogs and breeders. so say 10 breeders out of 1000 evaluate pointers. thats 1%. now let's say 5 out of 200 evaluate a smaller breed. that's 4 percent. 

one percent of a breed is selective bred compared to 4.

also. who would these active pointer breeders be that evaluate 10 bitches to find one suitable to breed??? just curious. or us this one of your made up theories you use to impress people on the Internet? 

your own website says you don't compete your dogs anymore and you like to breed one generation removed from trial lines. so if you don't trial dogs and you have a 3rd generation breeding that hasn't been trialed in 4 generations how do you know it's suitable? 

I haven't seen many berg brother setters winning in trial events. 
how can this be? does it represent your breeding program and the flaws in it? 

sorry but I get so sick and tired of people pretending to be some expert without the credentials to back it up.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Wambli done some winning

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----------



## Laphroaig

Steelheadfred said:


> OK,
> 
> It's easy to piss off Mac, just tell him your pigeon dog is better than his wild bird dogs. :lol:
> 
> Variables: While I don't have the experience as many here at Gladwin, I've ridden the courses a few times.
> 
> Variables: Bird Numbers, course you drew, time of day you were drawn, your brace mates manners, grouse food availability.
> 
> NSTRA and RGS - I would not be so fast to discount, while they are not run on wild birds, you still can appreciate these dogs for the ability to win and be evaluated on a "DOG Vs. DOG" basis on any given day. Start watching the dogs that win over and over again consistently. The last few years the dogs in both flushing and pointing that have dominated the RGS end of the year placements are all wild bird dogs outside of a couple days a year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point is Jay, the guy driving the truck needs to know where grouse live, how they behave, have a giant list of covers, you can have the best dog in the world but if you don't know where to park, it does little good, sure you might still find some birds.
> 
> 
> 
> Jay, the guy driving the truck picks out the dog, then develops it, and hopefully figures what covers best suit his style or dog.
> 
> At the end of the day, as you know, I talk about triangle and being in balance, Truck Driver, Dog, Cover.


No, I agree with you, all valid points. But that's not the point I was trying to make.

The issue was genetics, selective breeding (fur, feather, fowl, sharpness, tracking, retrieve) contrasted with traits (fill in the blank) selectively and deliberately bred....forever...in English Setters/Pointers; conducive to what it takes to be a good grouse dog.

I did NSTRA years ago. I did a RGS trial with my 9 month old pup and will be doing more. I just think there are variables in these trials that are not in the Grouse Coverdog trials; which coincides with the subject of great dog genetics for GROUSE. The subject is grouse; thus the grouse trials.

I'm from Arkansas originally. Them boys take NSTRA as seriously as anyone. Bo Nutt (pretty darned successful NSTRA guy on a national level) FF trained one of my setters, and liked another one of my Pinecone Max bred setters so much I finally sold him to him. Bo wins big in NSTRA; doesn't hunt a lick, period. LOTS of (THE BIG BOYS) NSTRA guys don't hunt their competition dogs. (I know the average guy does). They are born, bred and trained their whole life to think the entire world is a 40 acre grass birdfield; and that's it. Years ago I went to Dave Grubb for something or another. He brought out Millers Silver Ending. I have never seen such a sight to behold as when that dog struck scent. It looked like he grew 2 inches taller and his chest puffed out so full I thought he would explode. This was all on one lousy tame quail. Said he had not nor ever would shoot and kill a bird over him. He was bred for ultimately one place...winning at the Ames Plantation in Grand Junction, Tn. He fulfilled his destiny a couple years later.

The buck stops with WILD GROUSE TRIALS, relative to great grouse dogs; wouldn't it? Yes, as you pointed out there are variables within a grouse trial. But not the same variables as the versatile dog owner killing more grouse than the Setter / Pointer owner; and arguing that the genetics were the same in both breeds as was suggested by someone. That does not address the Original premise I was discussing AT ALL. That is a variable; which goes away in a grouse trial.

The fact that the versatile folks (and setters and pointers) breed for, enter, win and in many cases dominate NSTRA and other venues means something. The fact that Pointers, E Setters dominate the grouse trials means something. All breeds can find, point and hold wild grouse....of that there is no argument. But as was originally suggested, none with the proficiency of English Pointers and Setters as evidenced by the wild ruffed grouse trial demographics and results.


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## slammer

Pointers and setters dominate all American Field type of trials not just grouse trials. The standard which makes them dominate has much to do with run and according to the Field in my hand has been since 1874. Although other breeds have the capability to compete I do not think it has been one of the priorities of most other breeds for the last almost 140 Years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laphroaig

crosswind said:


> But in your mind yours can find and handle grouse better, because it is a setter. LOL Give me a break dude.


Crosswind, I cannot believe how wrong you are given I thought you were a professional. Get ready as I, a complete novice rip your arguments to shreds; here goes:

"THERE AIN'T NO DIFFERENCE IN THE BREEDS"...are you delusional? Words escape me at how alone you are with this belief. Incredible. Shocking actually. Why not celebrate the strengths of the versitiles and the strengths of the Pointers /Setters? No difference? I cannot believe someone in the business believes this. I have never, in all my born days heard a "professional" state there are no differences among the breeds. Staggering.

Shorthairs don't get a fair shake? Do you get sad with the color yellow? Do you need a cry rag? Bring your best shorthair in your kennel to the upcoming trial in Gladwin and enter him in the open. You will get your **** whipped, and it won't be because shorthairs don't get a fair shake. Tell you what...you raise and train a shorthair to compete in coverdog trials and I'll buy him from you for $5,000 the day he beats one of Lloyd Murray's Long Gone Setters and takes first place at the trial. Say the word and I'll have my attorney draw up a contract and put the money in escrow.

You just said tame dizzied quail are no different than a wild ruffed grouse!! My head just exploded. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Look, you know and I know that you have one focus in your breeding program and that is to produce NSTRA dogs; not grouse coverdogs. I'll guran-damn-tee-it. You keep the best prospects for NSTRA and sell the others to hunters. That's fine, as those left over pups stand every chance of doing fine on wild birds if trained properly. No problem. But let's be honest; your whole sales world hinges on the fact that you can convince people that your pen raised quail champions can produce wild bird dogs as well as wild bird dog champions can. You are sitting there claiming that there is no difference between NSTRA champions and a coverdog champion as it relates to grouse trials and that is PATENTLY FALSE.

Read my comments in my previous post about how NSTRA dogs are "trained" for the NSTRA game. I know you are a big time NSTRA competitor. Your eye is on the high prizes in Amo, National NSTRA as one would expect. I know the inside scoop. Those NSTRA money dogs whole world from whelping box to a dirt filled grave centers on never letting them know more than a poor flying quail in a 40 acre prism. No way do you want them desiring the sweet smell of a wild bird lest they lose style on Mr. Pen raised shyte covered quail. No way do you want them learning grouse aren't in a friggin plowed open 40 acre field. No way do you want them to learn that WILD BIRDS are in the hardwoods, lest they run out of bounds at the next Shoot To Retrieve trial. OOPS....LET THAT OUT TOO.

If you have read this whole thread, you would see where I mention living in the south and bringing very good dogs with us up north to hunt grouse. You guessed it, some were NSTRA dogs. Why would I admit my wild quail and pheasant dogs had trouble with grouse unless it was true? Wouldn't a better BS story go something like this: "Yea, our southern wild covey dogs tore up the so-called king of the upland birds". "Was no problem for our heat tolerant hard chargers". But, that's not how it was at all. Ruffed grouse are harder for the average dog to learn. Only the uninformed or one with a financial horse in the race could honestly disagree. I have killed so many wild quail and pheasants over the 38 years I have hunted them I'd be embarrassed to share the numbers. Likewise, I have killed, proportionately, so few ruffed grouse I'd be embarrassed to share the number. Oh, by the way...my NSTRA dog that Bo Nutt (who is a big time player) trained for me; pointed ZERO ruffed grouse for me last year. She is happy back down in Dixie. And OOPS....she is a daughter of Second Chance Scooby.


----------



## hehibrits

@ Lap, 
Here is what I found from an English Pointer breed history website:
"Early on in their development in England, Pointers were used to hunt and point hares in the field, so that coursing Greyhounds could locate them and chase them down. The Pointer&rsquo;s type, temperament and hunting ability were fairly well-standardized by the end of the 1700s and actually have changed very little since then."

Doesn't sound like they were trained only on birds "forever". Actually says they are a mix of Spanish and Italian setters, greyhounds, fox hounds, blood hounds, and bull terriers. Sounds like a little bit of fur in their background and not much feather.

@ fritz,
I can't speak for anyone else, but it took Harold the better part of 2 1/2 seasons to sort thru 20-30 dogs. The interesting part of his program is that he is independently wealthy and relies on no outside revenue or turning out champions to dictate his decisions. His evals are set up like heats. He takes a 4-6 dog string on the road for a few weeks and finds the best of the heat. Do this with three or four heats in a season to find a dog or two that meets your criteria. The following season he did the same found a few more and came up with a heat of the best of the best to run against each other. Since not all dogs belong to him, it takes time to work out the logistics to meet up with others from around the country who's dogs he might be interested in breeding with. He hunts from to Montana to Michigan then to Texas to see how they handle different birds and terrain. Evals are usually done by 3 or 4 hunters who keep notes and share opinions. I am sure not all do it that way, but it seems like a good system to me, just takes a lot of time and money. I bet trial guys see more dogs at the venues and talk with judges and other knowledgeable dog people and don't need to put in all that "work" of hunting around the country for months at a time.


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## WestCoastHunter

Way I see it is in Britain I think you'd be challenged to find versatiles competing against Pointers and Setters. Even the rules for handling them is different. It's not that one group is better than another, it's that they were bred for different jobs.

That shorthairs can be bred to run like a Pointer is great, but I honestly think it's a disservice to even want them in coverdog trials since that would be a departure from what the breed is about. A venue like NSTRA at least has some aspects of the job they were originally bred for.

Point being, this argument is silly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hehibrits

Lap, if I raise and train a britt to run and win a coverdog trial can get some of that 5k? Getting a pup in the spring and I need a hobby...thinking a girl out of Grand Junction Jake x an Ajax or Starbucks bitch...wonder what Wambli has out there??? 

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## Laphroaig

chewy said:


> you are ignorant to other breeds. do you think that AF horseback German shorthairs judge to a different standard than a pointer or setter? they don't.
> 
> if pointers and setters are bred to hunt grouse then why wouldn't a shorthair? they use the same standards in judging.
> 
> shorthairs don't compete in coverdog because of their tail length. that's a well known fact and has been said to me many times from big names in the cover dig circuit. a short tailed dog isn't going to win anything with significance in a grouse dog trial. why??? it's political and breed blindness.


Chewy, I'm sorry but I can't respond to your post which addresses my post. You grammar is incoherent. You are butthurt from an earlier post where I rebuked you. And you remain delusional that you know more about K9 genetics than Scott Berg. I'm sure you are a great guy, and your opinion is is just as valid as mine; but.....


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## Laphroaig

hehibrits said:


> Lap, if I raise and train a britt to run and win a coverdog trial can get some of that 5k? Getting a pup in the spring and I need a hobby...thinking a girl out of Grand Junction Jake x an Ajax or Starbucks bitch...wonder what Wambli has out there???
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Hell no you can't. You're a real grouse hunter and I know it. I do think it would be a good thing to do though. Britts win every where else. I'm sure you could salt a little setter blood in there, whack off the tails and away we go. 

Both my Grandfathers grouse hunted. One trialed. One was a setter man the other a Brittany man. I ended up a setter man. Please don't take it that I don't respect and admire all breeds; as I do. I'm dealing with a macro belief system and a post someone made yesterday I think.


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## Steelheadfred

WestCoastHunter said:


> Way I see it is in Britain I think you'd be challenged to find versatiles competing against Pointers and Setters. Even the rules for handling them is different. It's not that one group is better than another, it's that they were bred for different jobs.
> 
> That shorthairs can be bred to run like a Pointer is great, but I honestly think it's a disservice to even want them in coverdog trials since that would be a departure from what the breed is about. A venue like NSTRA at least has some aspects of the job they were originally bred for.
> 
> Point being, this argument is silly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Should I quit running my labs in the upland? All traditional breeding get's you is passed.


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## Back woods

BIGSP said:


> That dog is also a champion. Maybe a once in a lifetime dog. What ate the other dogs like in that litter. I'm sure quite nice but are they as easy to handle? Have the brains? Etc. you've also had him with a probable future HOF trainer. I'm not talking rock down I'm just wondering how that dog would do in my hands from 10 weeks on. I'm not posting this to stir I true would like to hear Mikes thoughts on this.



One of Rock's littermates won the North County Walking Shooting Dog Championship. Female CH. Megan's Paige Turner. I have seen her several times and she seems to be a very nice handling dog. Another of Rock's littermates, Fireside High Noon, another very nice handling dog who has placements in the woods as well as in US Complete. I think on any given day he could win a championship. Another is Duncan Creek Cubby, she has open placements in the woods as well. 

Now I don't like to be tooting my horn but some things need to be said. 


Our females that have produced.

Tig: 

3xCH 5x R-U CH. Hifive's Wrangler
Runner-up Ch. Pecott's Rowdy Rover
Classic Winner Hifive's Jasmine
Classic Winner Hifive's Powerhouse
and multiple other winners

Hifive's Wrangler:

CH. Megan's Paige Turner
R-U CH. Hifive's Rock Solid
and multiple other winners

Hifive's American Pie:

Runner-Up CH. Hifive's Pepper Ann

Hifive's Dancing Shadow:

CH. R-U CH. Dateline Black List

Hifive's Jasmine:

CH. R-U CH. High Desert Dream
Kater Potater  winner as well.

Hifive's Pepper Ann:

Horseback Runner-up CH. Scottish Glory


We have some very, very nice male and female pups going through our evaluation process right now. When they become brag worthy I might do some bragging on them as well.

Our dogs may not be suited for some hunters but I bred for myself and no one else. If you like what I like you'll probably buy a pup from me. If not you probably won't.


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## Laphroaig

Back woods said:


> One of Rock's littermates won the North County Walking Shooting Dog Championship. Female CH. Megan's Paige Turner. I have seen her several times and she seems to be a very nice handling dog. Another of Rock's littermates, Fireside High Noon, another very nice handling dog who has placements in the woods as well as in US Complete. I think on any given day he could win a championship. Another is Duncan Creek Cubby, she has open placements in the woods as well.
> 
> Now I don't like to be tooting my horn but some things need to be said.
> 
> 
> Our females that have produced.
> 
> Tig:
> 
> 3xCH 5x R-U CH. Hifive's Wrangler
> Runner-up Ch. Pecott's Rowdy Rover
> Classic Winner Hifive's Jasmine
> Classic Winner Hifive's Powerhouse
> and multiple other winners
> 
> Hifive's Wrangler:
> 
> CH. Megan's Paige Turner
> R-U CH. Hifive's Rock Solid
> and multiple other winners
> 
> Hifive's American Pie:
> 
> Runner-Up CH. Hifive's Pepper Ann
> 
> Hifive's Dancing Shadow:
> 
> CH. R-U CH. Dateline Black List
> 
> Hifive's Jasmine:
> 
> CH. R-U CH. High Desert Dream
> Kater Potater  winner as well.
> 
> Hifive's Pepper Ann:
> 
> Horseback Runner-up CH. Scottish Glory
> 
> 
> We have some very, very nice male and female pups going through our evaluation process right now. When they become brag worthy I might do some bragging on them as well.
> 
> Our dogs may not be suited for some hunters but I bred for myself and no one else. If you like what I like you'll probable buy a pup from me. If not you probable won't.


Here's where I shut my trap and go to bed. When I saw who posted, it reminded me of watching a TV show with two bears eating on a dead elk. In comes THE BIGGEST BADDEST grizzly bear in the woods and the other bears got their arses out of there and LET THE BIG BOY EAT.

If somebody will buy my flat bottom boat...I'd love to buy one of those prospects and smile like a Cheshire cat as Bruce holds its head and tail for a picture at the winners table. Good night all. PM for boat details.


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## hehibrits

Back woods said:


> Our dogs may not be suited for some hunters but I bred for myself and no one else. If you like what I like you'll probable buy a pup from me. If not you probable won't.


Very well said.



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## Bobby

Laphroaig said:


> Crosswind, I cannot believe how wrong you are given I thought you were a professional. Get ready as I, a complete novice rip your arguments to shreds; here goes:
> 
> "THERE AIN'T NO DIFFERENCE IN THE BREEDS"...are you delusional? Words escape me at how alone you are with this belief. Incredible. Shocking actually. Why not celebrate the strengths of the versitiles and the strengths of the Pointers /Setters? No difference? I cannot believe someone in the business believes this. I have never, in all my born days heard a "professional" state there are no differences among the breeds. Staggering.
> 
> Shorthairs don't get a fair shake? Do you get sad with the color yellow? Do you need a cry rag? Bring your best shorthair in your kennel to the upcoming trial in Gladwin and enter him in the open. You will get your **** whipped, and it won't be because shorthairs don't get a fair shake. Tell you what...you raise and train a shorthair to compete in coverdog trials and I'll buy him from you for $5,000 the day he beats one of Lloyd Murray's Long Gone Setters and takes first place at the trial. Say the word and I'll have my attorney draw up a contract and put the money in escrow.
> 
> You just said tame dizzied quail are no different than a wild ruffed grouse!! My head just exploded. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Look, you know and I know that you have one focus in your breeding program and that is to produce NSTRA dogs; not grouse coverdogs. I'll guran-damn-tee-it. You keep the best prospects for NSTRA and sell the others to hunters. That's fine, as those left over pups stand every chance of doing fine on wild birds if trained properly. No problem. But let's be honest; your whole sales world hinges on the fact that you can convince people that your pen raised quail champions can produce wild bird dogs as well as wild bird dog champions can. You are sitting there claiming that there is no difference between NSTRA champions and a coverdog champion as it relates to grouse trials and that is PATENTLY FALSE.
> 
> Read my comments in my previous post about how NSTRA dogs are "trained" for the NSTRA game. I know you are a big time NSTRA competitor. Your eye is on the high prizes in Amo, National NSTRA as one would expect. I know the inside scoop. Those NSTRA money dogs whole world from whelping box to a dirt filled grave centers on never letting them know more than a poor flying quail in a 40 acre prism. No way do you want them desiring the sweet smell of a wild bird lest they lose style on Mr. Pen raised shyte covered quail. No way do you want them learning grouse aren't in a friggin plowed open 40 acre field. No way do you want them to learn that WILD BIRDS are in the hardwoods, lest they run out of bounds at the next Shoot To Retrieve trial. OOPS....LET THAT OUT TOO.
> 
> If you have read this whole thread, you would see where I mention living in the south and bringing very good dogs with us up north to hunt grouse. You guessed it, some were NSTRA dogs. Why would I admit my wild quail and pheasant dogs had trouble with grouse unless it was true? Wouldn't a better BS story go something like this: "Yea, our southern wild covey dogs tore up the so-called king of the upland birds". "Was no problem for our heat tolerant hard chargers". But, that's not how it was at all. Ruffed grouse are harder for the average dog to learn. Only the uninformed or one with a financial horse in the race could honestly disagree. I have killed so many wild quail and pheasants over the 38 years I have hunted them I'd be embarrassed to share the numbers. Likewise, I have killed, proportionately, so few ruffed grouse I'd be embarrassed to share the number. Oh, by the way...my NSTRA dog that Bo Nutt (who is a big time player) trained for me; pointed ZERO ruffed grouse for me last year. She is happy back down in Dixie. And OOPS....she is a daughter of Second Chance Scooby.


Hey Di, if you're makin' popcorn I'll have a big bowl. This thread is starting to roll.


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## Bobby

Back woods said:


> Our dogs may not be suited for some hunters but I bred for myself and no one else. If you like what I like you'll probable buy a pup from me. If not you probably won't.


That statement is wrapped in the proverbial nut shell.


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## Ericgmci

Oh, by the way...my NSTRA dog that Bo Nutt (who is a big time player) trained for me; pointed ZERO ruffed grouse for me last year. She is happy back down in Dixie. And OOPS....she is a daughter of Second Chance Scooby.[/QUOTE]

Could you please name one NSTRA dog in Scoobys pedigree?

In my opinion the generations behind him represent some of the greatest setters to play the trial games. So your NSTRA dog shouldn't have much to do with pointing ZERO grouse because it's trained by a NSTRA trainer and out of a NSTRA dog that has absolutely ZERO Nstra bloodlines behind its sire. 

I have tried to follow this 13 pages with an open mind, but it appears to me you have some serious issues. I have seen several posts that you are accusing people of saying something that was never said, you are obviously assuming things an we all know what happens when we ASS U Me.


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## Ericgmci

Laphroaig said:


> Here's where I shut my trap and go to bed.
> 
> Thank god. Smartest thing you have said!


----------



## Laphroaig

Ericgmci said:


> Oh, by the way...my NSTRA dog that Bo Nutt (who is a big time player) trained for me; pointed ZERO ruffed grouse for me last year. She is happy back down in Dixie. And OOPS....she is a daughter of Second Chance Scooby.


Could you please name one NSTRA dog in Scoobys pedigree?

In my opinion the generations behind him represent some of the greatest setters to play the trial games. So your NSTRA dog shouldn't have much to do with pointing ZERO grouse because it's trained by a NSTRA trainer and out of a NSTRA dog that has absolutely ZERO Nstra bloodlines behind its sire. 

I have tried to follow this 13 pages with an open mind, but it appears to me you have some serious issues. I have seen several posts that you are accusing people of saying something that was never said, you are obviously assuming things an we all know what happens when we ASS U Me.[/QUOTE]

======================================
I'm not following you. Obviously we both know Scoobys pedigree. We both know it is hall of fame. What are you asking? What is your point?

My Scooby female is a GREAT quail and Pheasant dog. But, the truth is the truth as I said it concerning grouse. 15 trips 3 hour minimum and she pointed and held....ZERO. don't know what else to say.

Find me one or two places where I am accusing someone of saying something that was never said. Go ahead. If it is true, I'll post an immediate apology because it would be my misunderstanding; NOT MAKING SHYTE UP.


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## RecurveRx




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## Laphroaig

Ericgmci said:


> Laphroaig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's where I shut my trap and go to bed.
> 
> Thank god. Smartest thing you have said!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I'll stay up a little bit to see how you respond to my earlier post; or if you have hurt feelings or something.
Click to expand...


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## Ericgmci

You just said tame dizzied quail are no different than a wild ruffed grouse!! 


Start with that. Didn't see that anywhere in the 13 pages. When you can show me that quote I will dig up some more. 

Have a good night.


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## Laphroaig

Come on ericgmci......

Make your point in plain English so I can answer you.

Show me the examples......

Please don't tell me you are gonna run and hide now!


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## BIGSP

Back woods said:


> One of Rock's littermates won the North County Walking Shooting Dog Championship. Female CH. Megan's Paige Turner. I have seen her several times and she seems to be a very nice handling dog. Another of Rock's littermates, Fireside High Noon, another very nice handling dog who has placements in the woods as well as in US Complete. I think on any given day he could win a championship. Another is Duncan Creek Cubby, she has open placements in the woods as well.
> 
> Now I don't like to be tooting my horn but some things need to be said.
> 
> 
> Our females that have produced.
> 
> Tig:
> 
> 3xCH 5x R-U CH. Hifive's Wrangler
> Runner-up Ch. Pecott's Rowdy Rover
> Classic Winner Hifive's Jasmine
> Classic Winner Hifive's Powerhouse
> and multiple other winners
> 
> Hifive's Wrangler:
> 
> CH. Megan's Paige Turner
> R-U CH. Hifive's Rock Solid
> and multiple other winners
> 
> Hifive's American Pie:
> 
> Runner-Up CH. Hifive's Pepper Ann
> 
> Hifive's Dancing Shadow:
> 
> CH. R-U CH. Dateline Black List
> 
> Hifive's Jasmine:
> 
> CH. R-U CH. High Desert Dream
> Kater Potater  winner as well.
> 
> Hifive's Pepper Ann:
> 
> Horseback Runner-up CH. Scottish Glory
> 
> 
> We have some very, very nice male and female pups going through our evaluation process right now. When they become brag worthy I might do some bragging on them as well.
> 
> Our dogs may not be suited for some hunters but I bred for myself and no one else. If you like what I like you'll probably buy a pup from me. If not you probably won't.


Thank Bruce. Pretty impressive litter to say the least. Your breeding has done a lot for pointers in the woods. I guess the biggest reason I'm a little hesitant to get a trial dog is I'm a ***** when it comes to having a dog run too much for me. I've lost a few dogs and it just unnerves the hell out of me.


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## Laphroaig

Ericgmci said:


> You just said tame dizzied quail are no different than a wild ruffed grouse!!
> 
> 
> Start with that. Didn't see that anywhere in the 13 pages. When you can show me that quote I will dig up some more.
> 
> Have a good night.



Oh SHYTE....you can't read. I WAS QUOTING CROSSWIND WHO SAID IT. LOOK AT CROSSWINDS POST.


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## Laphroaig

Post 162.....read it.

NEXT.........


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## Ericgmci

I guess I can't read because I don't see that anywhere in Crosswinds post. 

Or would it be that you are assuming that's what he meant?


----------



## Laphroaig

Ericgmci said:


> I guess I can't read because I don't see that anywhere in Crosswinds post.
> 
> Or would it be that you are assuming that's what he meant?



So if they can perform heads up with the pointers and setters in that trial format why would it be different in any other.Wild birds my ****. 

There is his quote. He is saying THEY...meaning NSTRA dogs (which use tame quail) can perform "heads up" in any other (trial). THE WHOLE DISCUSSION WAS WILD GROUSE TRIALS. He goes on to say "wild birds my ***".

That my friend is a guy that thinks there is no difference between birds/dogs.


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## Scott Berg

Double post


----------



## Scott Berg

chewy said:


> I will disupte that. first you have to look at the total number of dogs and breeders. so say 10 breeders out of 1000 evaluate pointers. thats 1%. now let's say 5 out of 200 evaluate a smaller breed. that's 4 percent.
> 
> one percent of a breed is selective bred compared to 4.
> 
> also. who would these active pointer breeders be that evaluate 10 bitches to find one suitable to breed??? just curious. or us this one of your made up theories you use to impress people on the Internet?
> 
> your own website says you don't compete your dogs anymore and you like to breed one generation removed from trial lines. so if you don't trial dogs and you have a 3rd generation breeding that hasn't been trialed in 4 generations how do you know it's suitable?
> 
> I haven't seen many berg brother setters winning in trial events.
> how can this be? does it represent your breeding program and the flaws in it?
> 
> sorry but I get so sick and tired of people pretending to be some expert without the credentials to back it up.


OK  I remained civil through all the name calling and accusations of ignorance but the gloves are off now. Lets see if you a really want to talk about credentials. 

First, as far as I know there are as many or more GSP and Britts in this country as Pointers so your basic premise makes no sense. And, even if there were more Pointers, the raw percentage practicing a high degree of selectivity would be relatively irrelevant. The ceiling or potential of the breed is captured in the elite of the breed. If there are 50 Pointer breeders practicing exceptional discrimination it would not matter if another breeds representation of such breeders was a higher percentage if it meant that one or two breeders were practicing this degree of selectivity. The capacity would still be lower than that of the Pointer.

As for your next snide comment about Pointer breeders evaluating 10 females for every one they breed  Ferrel Miller, Sean Derrig, Nathan Phillips, PeeWee Cole, Scott Miller  In partnership with a few clients, Travis Gellhaus  In partnership with clients, John Lossing, Rob Butler (Elhew Sinbad), Gary Lester, Wehle when he was alive and on and on. There is also a group nick-named the company that looks at 60+/yr. Its one thing to be ignorant. Its another to go suggesting someone else is an ignorant fool when in fact you do not have a clue of what goes one with the guys that run on the major circuit and the level of dog it takes to compete. You obviously dont know any of these people and have never participated in a major open breed CH.

BTW  Name me two GSP breeders that evaluate 10 females for every one they keep to breed.

You also should not be speaking of ignorance and then ramble on about the winners we have or have not produced when you have not got a clue. Obviously, I am not going to go back for 30 years. The 2011/2012 seasons should be adequate.

BTW, I will expect you to reciprocate with a list of winners you have produced recently. 

· Thunderbird Punch buggy won the National AA Chukkar CH. How many NCH have you produced. He also was R/U at the Pacific coast AA CH and prior to this year he was run in walking CHs where he had a total of 9 CH & R/U CH. Before that, (in his 1st yr) he was run in cover dog CHs where he was R/U at the Wisconsin Cover Dog CH (60 entries) To the best of my knowledge, there has not been a dog of any breed to win at this level across this many types of CHs in the past 50 years.

· Barshoe Topgun Ace  Major Circuit Shooting Dog R/U CH
· Independence Day  R/U CH at the Ohio Penn CH with all of the major HB Shooting Dog pros in attendance. The same dog was the Michigan Shooting Dog of the year last year.

· Winter Sunrise  Top Amateur AA dog in the Country (Purina Points)

· Frickn Coco  Jon Frickes dog out of CH BB Jack had a R/U walking CH

· Winchesters Juno  several HB placements (regional SD of the year in MT)

· One Shot Remington  Another MI dog owned by Greg Hilla. Was MI puppy of the year (cover dog) and was 2nd in a 30 dog open shooting dog stake on wild birds as a puppy.

· Several NSTRA dogs Roughly 7-8

· 13 other HB and walking trial winners.

· So, in the last year or so thats 22 winners, 4 dog of the year awards, and 4 CH or R/U CH, one NCH in the past two years.

I will be interested to see your list. 

As for the whole mumbo jumbo about generations removed. We current are evaluating 24 pups for our program. 19 of the dams are directly out of CHs, and 3 are out of Hytest Silverado who is a littermate to CH Hytest Skyhawk who was the top AA setter in the country 5 years in a row. I watched both of the grow-up and simply preferred Silverado specifically for grouse dogs. Six of these 10 females have wins. Of the other females participating in our breeding program recently, BB Roz is out of CH Private Ryan, BB Equinox was out of CH Pacesetters Equinox, BB Prairiehawk by CH Hytest Skyhawk, BB Stone Cold by CH Stone Tavern Matrix, CH BB Hytest by CH Gandalf, Suncanyon Power Gilde by CH Pacesetters Equinox, BB Patriot by CH Tekoa Mountain Patriot, Bergs Perpetual Motion, CH Tekoa Mountain Sunrise, and CH Bergs Head Turner who placed in every type of sanctioned trial in existence is by Alamance Little Rock who is not a CH but twice qualified to go to the Natl CH at Grand Junction. Of these dogs, only Powerglide was the only female that did not have wins. How many females out of OPEN BREED CHs have you bred? 

In the past 5 years I have started 156 pups as an amateur. Ben does help but his focus is client dogs. How about you? How many have you started?

Since this thread is about grouse hunting dogs we can compare birds harvested if you like too. 

The most interesting question will be if you actually answer the questions or come back with a bunch of excuses and misdirect. BTW, since you completely disregarded cover trials because of their limited range, I dont expect to see AKC gun dog stakes listed.

With all of this said, we are primarily a hunting dog kennel. I will be happy to give you the names of our last 100 hunting dog clients if you will call every one of them and report back how many were not completely satisified and how many say the dog is the best dog they have ever owned. That's how we measure success. 

SRB

and, the best part of your post was ... "sorry but I get so sick and tired of people pretending to be some expert without the credentials to back it up".[/quote]

I am sorry to that I had to submit everyone else to this foolishness. Sorry everyone, I just could not turn the other cheek this time.


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## Laphroaig

Scott Berg said:


> I am sorry to that I had to submit everyone else to this foolishness. Sorry everyone, I just could not turn the other cheek this time.



Oh SHYTE....ANOTHER BIG GRIZZLIE just walked in the room.


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## hehibrits

Laphroaig said:


> So if they can perform heads up with the pointers and setters in that trial format why would it be different in any other.Wild birds my ****.
> 
> There is his quote. He is saying THEY...meaning NSTRA dogs (which use tame quail) can perform "heads up" in any other (trial). THE WHOLE DISCUSSION WAS WILD GROUSE TRIALS. He goes on to say "wild birds my ***".
> 
> That my friend is a guy that thinks there is no difference between birds/dogs.


That is a bit of a leap, or what they call in a court of law conjecture...a quote is a quote not paraphrase or synopsis. That we all can agree on regardless of breed 

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## Laphroaig

hehibrits said:


> That is a bit of a leap, or what they call in a court of law conjecture...a quote is a quote not paraphrase or synopsis. That we all can agree on regardless of breed
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


What you talking bout Willis? You're over my head. I was in honors english but me no comprende.

If a guy effectively says a NSTRA champion can win against let's say Long Gone Madison.....as he effectively did; then go on to say wild birds my xxxx; isn't he saying there is no difference between birds? He is dismissing the difference between a tame quail and a wild grouse....a blind man can see that. He may retract his comment later, but that is the implication. (there I said it).


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## Scott Berg

Back woods said:


> One of Rock's littermates won the North County Walking Shooting Dog Championship. Female CH. Megan's Paige Turner. I have seen her several times and she seems to be a very nice handling dog. Another of Rock's littermates, Fireside High Noon, another very nice handling dog who has placements in the woods as well as in US Complete. I think on any given day he could win a championship. Another is Duncan Creek Cubby, she has open placements in the woods as well.
> 
> Now I don't like to be tooting my horn but some things need to be said.


Bruce, as you probably recall, I started the North Country SD CH and I was happy to see you participating even though I could not be there last year. 

Your track record speaks volumes all by itself but sometimes. Unfortunately you sometimes have to defend even the type of stellar record you have on the internet. I know after spending thousands of hours in the woods and winning at the highest level it is difficult to listen to some of this rhetoric from people that have never so much as entered a dog in a cover dog stake and have a fraction of your experience with grouse dogs.

The good news is that many of us recognize your exceptional effort and results. 

SRB


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## Ericgmci

Laphroaig said:


> So if they can perform heads up with the pointers and setters in that trial format why would it be different in any other.Wild birds my ****.
> 
> There is his quote. He is saying THEY...meaning NSTRA dogs (which use tame quail) can perform "heads up" in any other (trial). THE WHOLE DISCUSSION WAS WILD GROUSE TRIALS. He goes on to say "wild birds my ***".
> 
> That my friend is a guy that thinks there is no difference between birds/dogs.


My point exactly. You are assuming and not quoting. What I ASSUME he meant was that gsp and Brits can go head to head with a setter or pointer in the Nstra trial game. This whole thing was started and referred that setters an pointers were equipped better to handle grouse than the other breeds. Scott and every other person on here knows that pen raised quail are not like wild birds. I believe that was his point that of the breeds can compete with each closely that they could do it on other game if they were trained or accustomed to the different game. Nothing do I see about pen raised quail and wild birds being referred to as the same. 

Sometimes I wish I never was introduced to the forum!

I'm dOne with this one.


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## Laphroaig

Ericgmci....you got any more.

I think I outlined pretty well how I came to say what I said. Read his quote again as an objective reader.

Answer me this...do you compete in NSTRA. Are you affiliated in any way with crosswind? 

Where is the next one?

Ok, missed your post....I'll read it and respond.


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## Laphroaig

Ericgmci said:


> My point exactly. You are assuming and not quoting. What I ASSUME he meant was that gsp and Brits can go head to head with a setter or pointer in the Nstra trial game. This whole thing was started and referred that setters an pointers were equipped better to handle grouse than the other breeds. Scott and every other person on here knows that pen raised quail are not like wild birds. I believe that was his point that of the breeds can compete with each closely that they could do it on other game if they were trained or accustomed to the different game. Nothing do I see about pen raised quail and wild birds being referred to as the same.
> 
> Sometimes I wish I never was introduced to the forum!
> 
> I'm dOne with this one.




Yea, I bet you are done.

YOU ARE DOING ALL THE ASSUMING.

Crosswinds clearly believes pen raised championed dogs can compete in wild grouse trials "heads up". Then goes on to say "wild birds my xxx". If that isn't a guy who thinks there is no difference between pen raised birds and wild birds I don't what is.

I figured you're done. You won't find an example; because there is not an example.


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## hehibrits

Bruce and Scott are the real deal for sure and I like what they have done and how they do it. I am a bird dog guy, I like my britts, but damnit I just flat out like a good bird dog. If you take the top 1% of the top 4 or 5 pointing breeds, the difference would be thin yet probably predictable. Hunt these dogs four hours a day for a week straight and probably even thinner. I think a half hour or hour stake tilts the advantage to a burner, where multiple hunts of several hours many consecutive days might not. 

Good discussion, Frank good luck with the pup, I am out of this one 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## crosswind

Laphroaig said:


> Crosswind, I cannot believe how wrong you are given I thought you were a professional. Get ready as I, a complete novice rip your arguments to shreds; here goes:Hmmm, I would have never guessed you are a "complete novice".
> 
> "THERE AIN'T NO DIFFERENCE IN THE BREEDS"...are you delusional? Words escape me at how alone you are with this belief. Incredible. Shocking actually. Why not celebrate the strengths of the versitiles and the strengths of the Pointers /Setters? No difference? I cannot believe someone in the business believes this. I have never, in all my born days heard a "professional" state there are no differences among the breeds. Staggering. Dear novice, did you fail to read that I was referring to and stated, that regarding the pointing of grouse.
> 
> Shorthairs don't get a fair shake? Do you get sad with the color yellow? Do you need a cry rag? Bring your best shorthair in your kennel to the upcoming trial in Gladwin and enter him in the open. You will get your **** whipped, and it won't be because shorthairs don't get a fair shake. Tell you what...you raise and train a shorthair to compete in coverdog trials and I'll buy him from you for $5,000 the day he beats one of Lloyd Murray's Long Gone Setters and takes first place at the trial. Say the word and I'll have my attorney draw up a contract and put the money in escrow.
> I will pass on your challenge, for a couple of reasons, why would I drop my prices to sell one for 5000 K to some novice who runs his gums more then he runs his dogs.
> There will come a day when I get enough time to come to the grouse trials. I wish I could now. But it will not be with a shorthair, I have no illusions of changing the cover dog world with a GSP. I will show up with pointer, Im fine with that. Hell I ain't mad about the fact that they don't want them trialing in the game. It is what it is, no big deal. But it is a known fact. That may not be the way all CD folks feel but is is certainly common enough that most GSP owners won't bother. Its to bad that thats the way it is, but it ain't that big a deal.I will still come a compete with a pointer,just because that is what I enjoy doing, competing.
> [/COLOR]
> 
> You just said tame dizzied quail are no different than a wild ruffed grouse!! My head just exploded. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.Post where I metioned anything about quail in this thread. By any chance do you smoke crack???? Look, you know and I know that you have one focus in your breeding program and that is to produce NSTRA dogs; not grouse coverdogs. I'll guran-damn-tee-it. You keep the best prospects for NSTRA and sell the others to hunters. That's fine, as those left over pups stand every chance of doing fine on wild birds if trained properly.Wait a minute, if there not any good at finding and pointing wild birds, how could I ever sell anyy???? No problem. But let's be honest; your whole sales world hinges on the fact that you can convince people that your pen raised quail champions can produce wild bird dogs as well as wild bird dog champions can. That Mr "Novice" is true.You are sitting there claiming that there is no difference between NSTRA champions and a coverdog champion as it relates to grouse trials Does it strike you as being odd that many come from the exact same bloodlines???You must have missed that. and that is PATENTLY FALSE.
> 
> Read my comments in my previous post about how NSTRA dogs are "trained" for the NSTRA game. So????I know you are a big time NSTRA competitor. So???Your eye is on the high prizes in Amo, National NSTRA as one would expect.So???? I know the inside scoop.I just bet you do, and your gonna tell us too, :lol: Take another hit and let her rip. Those NSTRA money dogs whole world from whelping box to a dirt filled grave centers on never letting them know more than a poor flying quail in a 40 acre prism. No way do you want them desiring the sweet smell of a wild bird lest they lose style on Mr. Pen raised shyte covered quail. No way do you want them learning grouse aren't in a friggin plowed open 40 acre field. No way do you want them to learn that WILD BIRDS are in the hardwoods, lest they run out of bounds at the next Shoot To Retrieve trial. OOPS....LET THAT OUT TOO. Whoooa, that was a good one. Does that mean I wasted my money buying property and building a cabin in the middle of grouse country. Maybe I can just rent it out to you setter owners and CD folks, since they are the only ones that can point grouse.
> 
> If you have read this whole thread, Im ashamed to admit it but yes I really did. I should have just watched the bachlorette.you would see where I mention living in the south and bringing very good dogs (your opinion)with us up north to hunt grouse. You guessed it, some were NSTRA dogs.(again you opinion) Why would I admit my wild quail and pheasant dogs had trouble with grouse unless it was true? Umm Im not sure. Crack, medical marijuana ???Wouldn't a better BS story go something like this: "Yea, our southern wild covey dogs tore up the so-called king of the upland birds". "Was no problem for our heat tolerant hard chargers". But, that's not how it was at all. (its your rant, tell it however you want)Ruffed grouse are harder for the average dog to learn. Well there is one sentence that actually makes sense. Only the uninformed or one with a financial horse in the race could honestly disagree. I have killed so many wild quail and pheasants over the 38 years I have hunted them I'd be embarrassed to share the numbers. Oh I doubt you would be embarressed. Likewise, I have killed, proportionately, so few ruffed grouse I'd be embarrassed to share the number.Don't feel bad, Im embarressed I took the time to even respond to your ridiculous post. Oh, by the way...my NSTRA dog that Bo Nutt (who is a big time player) trained for me; pointed ZERO ruffed grouse for me last year. She is happy back down in Dixie. And OOPS....she is a daughter of Second Chance Scooby.




Hey wait a minute, all this trash you just spewed about NSTRA and their dogs. You own a dog directly out of one and you hire a NSTRA member to train one for you. WOW. You really are on drugs :lol:


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## hehibrits

crosswind said:


> Hey wait a minute, all this trash you just spewed about NSTRA and their dogs. You own a dog directly out of one and you hire a NSTRA member to train one for you. WOW. You really are on drugs :lol:


Second chance scooby...rut row Raggy

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## Laphroaig

Let's try this:

His quote:

"So if they can perform heads up with the pointers and setters in that trial format why would it be different in any other.Wild birds my ****. "


"SO IF THEY".....versitle NSTRA DOGS
"CAN PERFORM HEADS UP"........meaning run in NSTRA trials on an even basis
"WITH THE POINTERS AND SETTERS"......self explanatory
"IN THAT TRIAL FORMAT".....a NSTRA trial with its rules, (tame quail) 
"WHY WOULD IT"..... Running in a trial
"BE ANY DIFFERENT"....meaning win the trial (as in NSTRA)
"IN ANY OTHER"....meaning wild grouse trials
"WILD BIRDS MY XXXX"..... Meaning wild birds make no difference than tame birds.

Use your brain.....that is what Crosswind said and it is ridiculous.


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## Scott Berg

hehibrits said:


> Bruce and Scott are the real deal for sure and I like what they have done and how they do it. I am a bird dog guy, I like my britts, but damnit I just flat out like a good bird dog. If you take the top 1% of the top 4 or 5 pointing breeds, the difference would be thin yet probably predictable. Hunt these dogs four hours a day for a week straight and probably even thinner. I think a half hour or hour stake tilts the advantage to a burner, where multiple hunts of several hours many consecutive days might not.
> 
> Good discussion, Frank good luck with the pup, I am out of this one
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Good point here about "Burners". I have seen my share of "burners" or what I call frantic dogs and I don't care for them a bit. There are no doubt some trialers who prefer this type of dog and seek to breed more of them. I really dislike this type of dog. The greatest CHs, trial dogs in general as well as greatest hunting dogs I have ever seen work very hard but under complete control with excellent application. Frantic dogs are very inconsistent.

SRB


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## Laphroaig

Crosswind,

95 % of your post is banter, ad hominem and opinion. I understand the personal attack strategy; I see it done every day by Obama.

I'll address your valid responses:

Read my previous post. That exposes your original quote. Now, you show me EXACTLY where you were referring to pointing wild grouse in your second blue line.


I don't blame you for passing on my challenge. You wisely know you would fail and don't need the bad PR.

Post where you mention quail? Come on...NSTRA USES QUAIL. IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING.


The rest of your post is ad hominem. Can you believe that? All that blue ink and only two REAL points to make which I just backed up.


And to address your last point. Where did I bash NSTRA? Where did I bash Bo Nutt? Where did I bash my dog? She is a hell of a wild quail and pheasant dog; what part about her pointing ZERO grouse don't you understand?


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## crosswind

If I did leave one thing out of that post, I could have added," Given the same training programs." 
The two formats are totally different as far as training.
You reading and comprehension skills suck. Put your bong and bottle away and read it in the morning. It might help but some how I doubt it

The issue I am disputing is the whole concept of one breed being better suited then the others at locating, pointing and holding grouse. Its nonsense. I totally agree it matters dog for dog, but not breed for breed.


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## Laphroaig

crosswind said:


> If I did leave one thing out of that post, I could have added," Given the same training programs."
> The two formats are totally different as far as training.
> You reading and comprehension skills suck. Put your bong and bottle away and read it in the morning. It might help but some how I doubt it
> 
> The issue I am disputing is the whole concept of one breed being better suited then the others at locating, pointing and holding grouse. Its nonsense. I totally agree it matters dog for dog, but not breed for breed.



Nice try...

Ad hominem. Always the losing last ditch effort. My reading skills are just fine.

I know the issue you are disputing. Answer me this....if the breeds matter not, why only Setters and Pointers win grouse trials.

I agree breeds matter not in NSTRA; stated it several times. You have yet to come to grips with the essence of the discussion. Remember YOU are the one who ripped my post. I always punched a bully straight in the mouth. I know you don't like the taste of your own blood.


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## midwestfisherman




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## chewy

WestCoastHunter said:


> Way I see it is in Britain I think you'd be challenged to find versatiles competing against Pointers and Setters. Even the rules for handling them is different. It's not that one group is better than another, it's that they were bred for different jobs.
> 
> That shorthairs can be bred to run like a Pointer is great, but I honestly think it's a disservice to even want them in coverdog trials since that would be a departure from what the breed is about. A venue like NSTRA at least has some aspects of the job they were originally bred for.
> 
> Point being, this argument is silly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


we don't live in England. a departure of what the breed is about??! they are bird dogs. a grouse is a bird.


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## kek25

Laphroaig said:


> . . .why *only* Setters and Pointers win grouse trials.


 [emphasis added]

*Only* setters and pointers don't win grouse trials. Wanbli was a Brittany and championed in the grouse trials. She won the Michigan Woodcock Championship held at Gladwin competing against 41 pointers and setters.


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## WestCoastHunter

Steelheadfred said:


> Should I quit running my labs in the upland? All traditional breeding get's you is passed.


I think that's a bad example. Mostly because I've known of people using labs for upland hunting both here and abroad for literally decades. What you're doing is not unique or particularly new.

But somehow I seriously doubt you would think running Labs in venues that don't require retrieving would be a good direction to take the breed, no?



chewy said:


> we don't live in England. a departure of what the breed is about??! they are bird dogs. a grouse is a bird.


We certainly do not. But my point is the British as well as folks on the continent recognize the role and the job that versatiles play and what they're for.

Versatiles like the shorthair are most definately *not just* bird dogs. You can certainly use them for that, but that's not their sole reason for existing as a breed and why you would even want to enter one in a venue that doesn't so much as require a retrieve or even consider breeding animals within that breed for that is beyond me.

I'm not bashing your choice of breed or the breeding you use. I think you can hold your head up high owning a shorthair. But I think you should accept that there are some differences between shorthairs and Pointers and setters. 

Their mission is not the same, but that doesn't mean you can't fill the game bag equally outside of competition.

Look, if it makes you feel better I also think it's silly for anyone to try and make a case against shorthairs based on the coverdog venue. Their hunting styles are different, their run is often different, and as I've said, the reason behind their existence as a breed is entirely different.

The bird dog world is not and should not be one big melting pot where they're all the same except for some aesthetic and personality differences. Not all dogs or breeds are created equal...and I think that is fine.


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## Steelheadfred

Some lines are not versatile dogs anymore, evolution happened.
Its what's great about bird dogs, with a little due dilligence you can find a line within a breed frame that suits your asthetics, general personality characteristic, and other similarities you like about a breed separate from performance. Yet have a top performing dog in the woods and fields.
Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## mudbat2128

Steelheadfred said:


> Some lines are not versatile dogs anymore, evolution happened.
> Its what's great about bird dogs, with a little due dilligence you can find a line within a breed frame that suits your asthetics, general personality characteristic, and other similarities you like about a breed separate from performance. Yet have a top performing dog in the woods and fields.
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Yep even pointers that were originally breed to point hare in england are now bird dogs.


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## WestCoastHunter

Steelheadfred said:


> Some lines are not versatile dogs anymore, evolution happened.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


So if pointing labs started running in coverdog trials or all age trials and breeders stopped worrying about retrieving instincts in favor of creating dogs that can keep up, point, and only have a single layer coat you would be ok with that?

That's my point. In AA venues and Coverdog there are probably some breeders who do look for some retrieving instinct but at the end of the day the dogs chosen to compete need to run like hell, point statue still, and never miss a beat. Retrieving is not a part of that game, nor is finding and/or dispatching small game like rabbits, nor is waterfowling.

Chewy said it himself right in this thread. Some lines of shorthair have so much *Pointer* in them now that they may as well be Pointers. Call that evolution if you want. But I think it gets away from the intent of the breed and people may as well buy a Pointer instead then.


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## WestCoastHunter

mudbat2128 said:


> Yep even pointers that were originally breed to point hare in england are now bird dogs.


That's a weak argument. The Pointer has always been bred to do just one thing. Point.

The shorthair was bred for much much more.


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## hehibrits

Steelheadfred said:


> Some lines are not versatile dogs anymore, evolution happened.
> Its what's great about bird dogs, with a little due dilligence you can find a line within a breed frame that suits your asthetics, general personality characteristic, and other similarities you like about a breed separate from performance. Yet have a top performing dog in the woods and fields.
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Good point, take setters for example. What are the differences between an Old Hemlock bred dog and a Miller or Berg bros dog...80 years ago or so, they were all from the same breed stock and selective breeding has given us two different style dogs. The same can be said for American britts vs. French britts, same gene pool, different directions.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## mudbat2128

WestCoastHunter said:


> That's a weak argument. The Pointer has always been bred to do just one thing. Point.
> 
> The shorthair was bred for much much more.


Wasn't really an argument.


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## WestCoastHunter

hehibrits said:


> Good point, take setters for example. What are the differences between an Old Hemlock bred dog and a Miller or Berg bros dog...80 years ago or so, they were all from the same breed stock and selective breeding has given us two different style dogs. The same can be said for American britts vs. French britts, same gene pool, different directions.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


But at the end of the day a setter is setter is a setter. They all are bred to point birds and nothing else. You didn't really lose anything. You just gained or lost range and size depending on your perspective.

Altering the shorthair to be just a bird dog or altering it so it is competitive in environments that don't even require a retrieve let along the rest that it is about is a whole other story. It's not just shorthairs too, look at some of the pics that Chewy posts of wirehairs bred for trials. It's nice that it can be done, but those dogs are not built to do what their ancestors were. 

People can do what they want. I just think it's silly to fret whenever someone asks why a versatile can't compete in coverdog trials. That game isn't even what the versatile breeds are all about so who gives a rip?


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## hehibrits

WestCoastHunter said:


> That's a weak argument. The Pointer has always been bred to do just one thing. Point.
> 
> The shorthair was bred for much much more.


And setters have always been bred to do one thing, set (point) game also. The argument was made that since other breeds were bred to hunt fur, pointers had a genetic advantage since only feathers have graced their olefactory pleasure center. Whether they set or flushed wasn't the "point" (sorry for the pun) We now know that pointers were originally used to point fur...are you making the argument that pointers only find game and don't recover it?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## WestCoastHunter

mudbat2128 said:


> Wasn't really an argument.


Then what was it?

Pointers point. It is their sole mission in life. That they point birds now and not hare so much anymore doesn't prove much of anything nor does it indicate any form of "evolution."

Like I said, versatiles are about more than that and I don't think that's something to be ashamed of or try to get away from.


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## Steelheadfred

WestCoastHunter said:


> So if pointing labs started running in coverdog trials or all age trials and breeders stopped worrying about retrieving instincts in favor of creating dogs that can keep up, point, and only have a single layer coat you would be ok with that?.


Unlike our President, I believe in free markets, so if there is demand that creates supply and breeders want to head in that direction, and you can get pointing labs classified as "pointing dogs" by the American Field, then so be it.

If they want to breed em like that yet maintain the same general personalities, intelligence, cooperative nature, great.



> I think that's a bad example. Mostly because I've known of people using labs for upland hunting both here and abroad for literally decades. What you're doing is not unique or particularly new.
> 
> But somehow I seriously doubt you would think running Labs in venues that don't require retrieving would be a good direction to take the breed, no?


I never said what I was doing was particularly unique or new, but Labs were developed, according to the history books, to sit in the corner of a fishing boat, be quiet and go pick up fish that fell out of the nets. 

Now I have a hard time believing in those hard scrabble days that a dog was only being used to retrieve fish, my guess is the history books ignore the fact that those dogs were used to find, and gather meat how ever and when ever it presented itself. 

Now, look at the labrador today, it is being used for far more than just upland, waterfowl, field trials, hunt tests, dog jumping events, they are fantastic pets, war dogs, bomb dogs, drug dogs, helper dogs....All the evolution of the breed, it's great too, with some due diligence you can find a line to suit your needs.

So if Crosswinds and others want to take a shorthair, a dog that has the aesthetics, personality, temperament he enjoys, and breed the best of the best bird dogs, smaller, powerful dogs with lots of run, then so be it. Good for him, *good for the breed,* if you desire a more traditional GSP, then their is a line for you. In America we are lucky we don't have folks telling us we must meet XYR breeding standards and end up with dogs that never get any better.

I don't buy Laphraigs argument, I did not read or interpret Crosswinds comments to mean a NSTRA dog could step into the woods and win, but I believe some of the Crosswinds dogs I have seen, have the run that some of the cover dogs I've seen do, and if brought up as grouse dogs from a puppy, in the woods, they will be fine, far reaching grouse dogs, I also believe someone could put in the time with a GSP to go cover dog, and I believe if the dog finds birds and performs with style to their standards, the dog can and will win, it won't be easy, but nothing worth doing comes easy, hunting is hard work too.

When Scott said a bird is a bird, he was talking about development of a dog, at least that is how I read it, with all this said, I did do the second grade twice, so I could have interpreted it wrong, but I will believe what I want to believe.


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## Drifter Saver

Laphroaig said:


> If somebody will buy my flat bottom boat...I'd love to buy one of those prospects and smile like a Cheshire cat as Bruce holds its head and tail for a picture at the winners table.


Why is that? Can't you take the dog to a high level yourself? How could you even get on here and attack anybody (e.g. Ericgmci, crosswind or Chewy) when you haven't proven squat! So you ran NSTRA some years ago...probably got spanked and walked away like many do. I don't know how far your ignorance goes, but Eric is the owner of Scooby and Scott is obviously the owner of his kennel. Both of them personally took their dogs to the high levels they achieved. Heck, I don't know if Eric was even 30 by the time he had accomplished as much as he did with Scooby. At this point someone would be better served listening to him assess a dog than you spouting off that you know Bo and saw "this" dog run. If you look a littler further Scooby also sired a dog that was (not to long ago) very high on the radar in the US Complete world as a young dog. Furthermore, Chewy has a Crosswind dog carrying a FC from AKC...unless NGSPA doesn't hold any water to you either. Scott has accomplished more than you have time to write. I did say ignorance because you are personally attacking people and/or their animals. I certainly haven't seen anybody attacking animals very often on here.

Grouse trials are a niche. They are a small club of primarily setters who won't typically allow anything with short hair into the winners circle without simply sticking it out for years while donating entry fees. I have AF friends in Kansas who asked me a few years back "what are grouse trials". An AF trialer in one of the best upland states in the country barely knew what grouse trials were??? How could that be? None are any better than others...just a different way to play. I wrestled most of my life. I was pretty good placing at states in high school. I tried freestyle (different from greco-roman for the non wrestlers) one summer I just couldn't get the knack of it because the rules and tactics were a little different. I am sure that I could have figured it out, but I just chose not to and didn't want to spend any more time with it. Were they better than me? Nope...just trained differently or had more experience in that venue.

Take any of the wild bird dogs (that are held in such high regard in your world) and line them up in a little 40 acre grass field to see just how good they are. I don't care what my venue is (woods, CRP, sandhills or pastures...yes wild singles in short pastures), my dog better find the bird and look good doing it. Grab ANY of your favorite grouse dogs and I will personally (me and my dog...not some chosen pro) take that challenge. We would be an easy draw for you...I don't trial much anymore and she doesn't even have a placement this season and has never won a big trial. Surely should be able to smoke her right? I would then guarantee meeting up with her to grouse hunt with anyone to see how she holds her own there. The point with that challenge is that I am willing to talk smack with someone because I will also try to back it up (and I am pretty confident that I could). If you aren't willing to, then shut the HE double hockey stick up!

So your dog from the south couldn't point grouse...probably wasn't trained properly from the start. Most likely it didn't have much, if any, exposure to a new species. Take any of your favorite grouse trial champion or runner-up champions and see what it does on a running wild rooster for a while. It usually won't be productive.

To the original poster, I am sure that this thread has been entertaining, but I apologize that you probably haven't gotten much out of it.

*Edit* This makes me angry when anybody would assume or accuse another dog or venue of being better better or worse than something else. There isn't any value in it. You better enjoy what you hunt with or trial with because it is yours and costs money.


----------



## WestCoastHunter

hehibrits said:


> are you making the argument that pointers only find game and don't recover it?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


See much retrieving in Coverdog events? AA events?

I know people force break them and I know some Pointers figure it out on their own, but that doesn't make them a versatile hunting dog nor does it indicate any form of "evolution" within the breed.

I'm sure someone out there uses a Pointer for duck hunting too. Does that make it the equal of a shorthair or lab in that arena? Last time I checked, the latter of those two have webbed feet and former does not. The latter two have an undercoat that sheds water, the former does not. But I guess because that Pointer likes to play in the water and retrieve (naturally or otherwise) it is then supposed to be a versatile breed?


----------



## Laphroaig

Steelheadfred said:


> Unlike our President, I believe in free markets, so if there is demand that creates supply and breeders want to head in that direction, and you can get pointing labs classified as "pointing dogs" by the American Field, then so be it.
> 
> If they want to breed em like that yet maintain the same general personalities, intelligence, cooperative nature, great.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said what I was doing was particularly unique or new, but Labs were developed, according to the history books, to sit in the corner of a fishing boat, be quiet and go pick up fish that fell out of the nets.
> 
> Now I have a hard time believing in those hard scrabble days that a dog was only being used to retrieve fish, my guess is the history books ignore the fact that those dogs were used to find, and gather meat how ever and when ever it presented itself.
> 
> Now, look at the labrador today, it is being used for far more than just upland, waterfowl, field trials, hunt tests, dog jumping events, they are fantastic pets, war dogs, bomb dogs, drug dogs, helper dogs....All the evolution of the breed, it's great too, with some due diligence you can find a line to suit your needs.
> 
> So if Crosswinds and others want to take a shorthair, a dog that has the aesthetics, personality, temperament he enjoys, and breed the best of the best bird dogs, smaller, powerful dogs with lots of run, then so be it. Good for him, *good for the breed,* if you desire a more traditional GSP, then their is a line for you. In America we are lucky we don't have folks telling us we must meet XYR breeding standards and end up with dogs that never get any better.
> 
> I don't buy Laphraigs argument, I did not read or interpret Crosswinds comments to mean a NSTRA dog could step into the woods and win, but I believe some of the Crosswinds dogs I have seen, have the run that some of the cover dogs I've seen do, and if brought up as grouse dogs from a puppy, in the woods, they will be fine, far reaching grouse dogs, I also believe someone could put in the time with a GSP to go cover dog, and I believe if the dog finds birds and performs with style to their standards, the dog can and will win, it won't be easy, but nothing worth doing comes easy, hunting is hard work too.
> 
> When Scott said a bird is a bird, he was talking about development of a dog, at least that is how I read it, with all this said, I did do the second grade twice, so I could have interpreted it wrong, but I will believe what I want to believe.



Nice analysis. However you very distinctly point out that there are "differences within a breed"; by default "differences among the breeds; which Crosswinds said "THERE AIN'T ANY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE BREEDS". That statement is what I initially objected to, and I like how rationally you laid out the case reinforcing my point, even though that was not your purpose.

We do disagree on the intrepretation of essentially an interchangeable dog with an interchangeable bird. To my eye when he said "WILD BIRDS MY XXXX"; that is the sign of a man who diminishes the difficulty of properly handling grouse , and grouse trial champion dogs. Why say WILD BIRDS MY XXX" at all if he was saying it how you interpret it? He may have meant something different; but he didn't say it. He said what he said to attack my paragraph and opinion. I simply fired back.


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## Dave Medema

WestCoastHunter said:


> But at the end of the day a setter is setter is a setter. They all are bred to point birds and nothing else.


This setter was a world class squirrel finder. :lol:He absolutely loved them. He also happened to be one of the top dogs for 3 or 4 years at the RGS hunts in MN. He was my top grouse guide dog for years. 











He was also a decent fishing companion. 










But he wasn't the perfect dog. He was a terrible baby sitter.








Frank. Good luck with your pointer. There are some great ones out there.


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## WestCoastHunter

Dave Medema said:


> This setter was a world class squirrel finder. :lol:He absolutely loved them. He also happened to be one of the top dogs for 3 or 4 years at the RGS hunts in MN. He was my top grouse guide dog for years.


Behold! Evolution!

I have a Pointer that does that. He broke point one time in the yard and actually caught one, played with it for a while, and then let it run back up the tree. :lol:


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## chewy

Scott Berg said:


> Double post


have you ever heard me make claims that I am a breeder? no. 

I can give u a few kennels. udibars. the richardsons. 

nstra champions in your brags shouldn't matter because as u say they are not on wild birds nor is 3/4 of the horseback championships they are liberated quail. 

all the dogs I see you list none have the berg brothers name. why is that?


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## Laphroaig

Drifter Saver said:


> Why is that? Can't you take the dog to a high level yourself? How could you even get on here and attack anybody (e.g. Ericgmci, crosswind or Chewy) when you haven't proven squat! So you ran NSTRA some years ago...probably got spanked and walked away like many do. I don't know how far your ignorance goes, but Eric is the owner of Scooby and Scott is obviously the owner of his kennel. Both of them personally took their dogs to the high levels they achieved. Heck, I don't know if Eric was even 30 by the time he had accomplished as much as he did with Scooby. At this point someone would be better served listening to him assess a dog than you spouting off that you know Bo and saw "this" dog run. If you look a littler further Scooby also sired a dog that was (not to long ago) very high on the radar in the US Complete world as a young dog. Furthermore, Chewy has a Crosswind dog carrying a FC from AKC...unless NGSPA doesn't hold any water to you either. Scott has accomplished more than you have time to write. I did say ignorance because you are personally attacking people and/or their animals. I certainly haven't seen anybody attacking animals very often on here.
> 
> Grouse trials are a niche. They are a small club of primarily setters who won't typically allow anything with short hair into the winners circle without simply sticking it out for years while donating entry fees. I have AF friends in Kansas who asked me a few years back "what are grouse trials". An AF trialer in one of the best upland states in the country barely knew what grouse trials were??? How could that be? None are any better than others...just a different way to play. I wrestled most of my life. I was pretty good placing at states in high school. I tried freestyle (different from greco-roman for the non wrestlers) one summer I just couldn't get the knack of it because the rules and tactics were a little different. I am sure that I could have figured it out, but I just chose not to and didn't want to spend any more time with it. Were they better than me? Nope...just trained differently or had more experience in that venue.
> 
> Take any of the wild bird dogs (that are held in such high regard in your world) and line them up in a little 40 acre grass field to see just how good they are. I don't care what my venue is (woods, CRP, sandhills or pastures...yes wild singles in short pastures), my dog better find the bird and look good doing it. Grab ANY of your favorite grouse dogs and I will personally (me and my dog...not some chosen pro) take that challenge. We would be an easy draw for you...I don't trial much anymore and she doesn't even have a placement this season and has never won a big trial. Surely should be able to smoke her right? I would then guarantee meeting up with her to grouse hunt with anyone to see how she holds her own there. The point with that challenge is that I am willing to talk smack with someone because I will also try to back it up (and I am pretty confident that I could). If you aren't willing to, then shut the HE double hockey stick up!
> 
> So your dog from the south couldn't point grouse...probably wasn't trained properly from the start. Most likely it didn't have much, if any, exposure to a new species. Take any of your favorite grouse trial champion or runner-up champions and see what it does on a running wild rooster for a while. It usually won't be productive.
> 
> To the original poster, I am sure that this thread has been entertaining, but I apologize that you probably haven't gotten much out of it.
> 
> *Edit* This makes me angry when anybody would assume or accuse another dog or venue of being better better or worse than something else. There isn't any value in it. You better enjoy what you hunt with or trial with because it is yours and costs money.



I am not a U.S senator, yet Ihave every right to express my opinion that Obama has his head up his rear as it relates to being the Executive of the USA. So you'll understanding I care less that you think I need to be in the business like yourself and everyone else you mentioned before I express my opinions. I have stepped on your foot and those of your contemporaries. I admire the brotherhood and loyalty, but you are flat out wrong in your characterizations.

Did you read where I praised my dog out of Scooby? I do not see how you missed my point, but you did. I have (had) a great wild quail dog out of Scooby, FF trained by a leading NSTRA guy. She never could hack it on grouse. I used that example to dispute crosswinds assertion that things are so interchangeable. Don't make anything more out of it than that. It's clear cut. Show me where I "attacked animals" as you said.

You are butthurt and I understand it. I'm sure you are "small potatoes" in NSTRA, living vicariously through the BIG BOYS who make it to the nationals. Do you dispute that those guys want their dogs to live in a 40 acre prism? Do those guys run their dogs in bottomlands, hardwoods etc? Do those guys train on wild birds regularly? Hell no they don't! I'm just stating the truth. If I wanted to do that sport again that's what I'd do. I have no problems with NSTRA. but when crosswinds, who is a big boy in NSTRA claims that there is no differences between breeds, and that a NSTRA Champion could win in wild grouse trials commensurate; I frankly disagree.


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## hehibrits

WestCoastHunter said:


> See much retrieving in Coverdog events? AA events?
> 
> I know people force break them and I know some Pointers figure it out on their own, but that doesn't make them a versatile hunting dog nor does it indicate any form of "evolution" within the breed.
> 
> I'm sure someone out there uses a Pointer for duck hunting too. Does that make it the equal of a shorthair or lab in that arena? Last time I checked, the latter of those two have webbed feet and former does not. The latter two have an undercoat that sheds water, the former does not. But I guess because that Pointer likes to play in the water and retrieve (naturally or otherwise) it is then supposed to be a versatile breed?


First off, there is no retrieving in cover dog trials, nor in any Akc or af events. No one ever said there was. Back in the day there were shoot to kill trials with professional gunners doing the shooting. Birds were retrieved by bird boys not the dogs, but it did require your dog to be a lot steadied since the shooter had to wait for the bird to clear, a lot of guys have a quick trigger finger with a blank pistol. I thought the definition of a versatile dog was one that hunted fur, feather, and waterfowl equally well. Not one that pointed a bird and retrieved it when you shot it. Am I wrong?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## WestCoastHunter

Laphroaig said:


> Nice analysis. However you very distinctly point out that there are "differences within a breed"; by default "differences among the breeds; which Crosswinds said "THERE AIN'T ANY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE BREEDS". That statement is what I initially objected to, and I like how rationally you laid out the case reinforcing my point, even though that was not your purpose.


Chewy has essentially been saying the same thing. He has also, in a different thread a year or two ago, pointed out that some of Crosswind's dogs have done well in NAVHDA too.

Let's see, his dogs compete at a highest level in NSTRA, apparently some horseback trials, and they can handle their own in a NAVHDA hunt test. Those are real achievements to be proud of if true.

Pointers and setters can only claim two out of three of those and they most likely will never show up much in NAVHDA events (again, there are exceptions, but no one breeds for it to my knowledge).

Maybe some day one of his dogs will walk in and clean house in a Coverdog event. But I wouldn't go trying to make a bob tailed Pointer to do it if I were him. Yet they are supposed to be the same as Pointers and Setters right now...come on. 

Good athletic dogs that can find birds they are, but Pointers and setters they are not. Personally I wouldn't let that or the lack of achievements in Coverdog bother me. The fact that Pointers don't do swell (or even show up) in most NAVHDA events doesn't bother Pointer owners so...


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## WestCoastHunter

hehibrits said:


> First off, there is no retrieving in cover dog trials, nor in any Akc or af events. No one ever said there was. Back in the day there were shoot to kill trials with professional gunners doing the shooting. Birds were retrieved by bird boys not the dogs, but it did require your dog to be a lot steadied since the shooter had to wait for the bird to clear, a lot of guys have a quick trigger finger with a blank pistol.


Exactly my point.



hehibrits said:


> I thought the definition of a versatile dog was one that hunted fur, feather, and waterfowl equally well. Not one that pointed a bird and retrieved it when you shot it. Am I wrong?


From the following - http://www.navhda.org/breeds.html

The North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association defines versatility as "the dog that is bred and trained to dependably hunt and point game, to *retrieve* on both land and water, and to track wounded game on both land and water." ~ NAVHDA Aims, Programs, Test Rules 

It is my understanding that the retrieve is also a critical part of judgement both in Britain and continental Europe when it comes to versatiles. It is not critical or even desired in Pointer and setter trials there however, not unlike the venues you listed for here in our own country, not that some can't do it if wanted.


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## Laphroaig

WestCoastHunter said:


> Chewy has essentially been saying the same thing. He has also, in a different thread a year or two ago, pointed out that some of Crosswind's dogs have done well in NAVHDA too.
> 
> Let's see, his dogs compete at a highest level in NSTRA, apparently some horseback trials, and they can handle their own in a NAVHDA hunt test. Those are real achievements to be proud of if true.
> 
> Pointers and setters can only claim two out of three of those and they most likely will never show up much in NAVHDA events (again, there are exceptions, but no one breeds for it to my knowledge).
> 
> Maybe some day one of his dogs will walk in and clean house in a Coverdog event. But I wouldn't go trying to make a bob tailed Pointer to do it if I were him. Yet they are supposed to be the same as Pointers and Setters right now...come on.
> 
> Good athletic dogs that can find birds they are, but Pointers and setters they are not. Personally I wouldn't let that or the lack of achievements in Coverdog bother me. The fact that Pointers don't do swell (or even show up) in most NAVHDA events doesn't bother Pointer owners so...


First of all I cannot understand Chewy's posts. Secondly, I'm a (relatively) new member. Third, this thread has morphed several times; and a few on here are rebuking me for comments I made...SPECIFICALLY FOR AN ENTIRELD DIFFERENT PREMICE THAN WHAT THEY ARE REBUKING ME FOR. Things are getting out of context and I am trying to be deliberate in my replies to clarify things.

My participation in this controversial subset of a discussion happened to be where I simply agreed with Scott Berg! Crosswind ripped my opinion, and I fired back. Notice how guys in the business like Bruce Minard stay above the horseshyte that crosswinds and others like to get into with a hunter like me? If for no other reason than gentlemanship; I'd buy from Bruce and run like a scalded yellow dog from the others in the fray.


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## hehibrits

Laphroaig said:


> Do those guys run their dogs in bottomlands, hardwoods etc? Do those guys train on wild birds regularly? Hell no they don't! I'm just stating the truth.


I know a guy with a dog named Buddy who ran NSTRA and hunted all types of cover and trained his dogs on wild birds.



Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Scott Berg

Let's keep a couple things in mind about the references to Scooby. One, the female was 50% of the equation. Two, a sample size of one is completely irrelevant. I very seriously considered Scooby at stud last year and talked to others who had used him at length. He produced some exceptionally good grouse dogs in the eyes of some very knowledgeable setter people.
[/COLOR] 
I ended doing a frozen semen breeding to CH Tekoa Mountain Jettsundoing who was the top AA dog in the country last year. Jettsun's sire is CH Tekoa Mountain Patriot who will probably be in the HOF. Point being, Scooby was being considered along side the proven elite of our breed. Scooby is basically a product of line breeding on CH See Johnny Run who is another Sunrise Setter as is Patriot and Jettsun. Jettsun is actually out of a froxen semen Sunrise daughter. 

SRB


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## Drifter Saver

dogwhistle said:


> go to hi fives website and look at the pedigree for Blacklist. som of everything, miller, all age, and elhew. and from those who saw him, he was a great dog and runnerup to the invitational.


All of the other BS aside within this thread (mostly from one source), I have some friends in Iowa who have his offspring and have spoken highly of them so far. They generally stay with the more recently proven NSTRA and NBHA dogs around their area for breeding, but it will be interesting to see how the Butch pups evolve for them.


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## 2ESRGR8

N M Mechanical said:


> I am glad to find out today that if I don't have a dog from bruce or Scott Berg not to waste my time and money this fall on grouse hunting I will have a lot more time to duck hunt
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lucky for you that you own a duck dawg.


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## Laphroaig

Scott Berg said:


> Let's keep a couple things in mind about the references to Scooby. One, the female was 50% of the equation. Two, a sample size of one is completely irrelevant. I very seriously considered Scooby at stud last year and talked to others who had used him at length. He produced some exceptionally good grouse dogs in the eyes of some very knowledgeable setter people.
> [/COLOR]
> I ended doing a frozen semen breeding to CH Tekoa Mountain Jettsundoing who was the top AA dog in the country last year. Jettsun's sire is CH Tekoa Mountain Patriot who will probably be in the HOF. Point being, Scooby was being considered along side the proven elite of our breed. Scooby is basically a product of line breeding on CH See Johnny Run who is another Sunrise Setter as is Patriot and Jettsun. Jettsun is actually out of a froxen semen Sunrise daughter.
> 
> SRB





Scott, I hope you don't think I'm bashing Scooby, as I'm not. My Scooby dog (I no longer have her) was a VERY good quail/pheasant dog. I stated that openly. I was TREMENDOUSLY upset when I moved to Michigan and she could not handle grouse, and could not adapt to tight cover. She ran HUGE! No problem as I lived in the south and hunted vast open land. As was pointed out I reached out far and wide from this board and the other seeking help. I got dumb **** answers from many. The HIGHER ESTEEMED people who offered advice lined up with my fears; she may be great in one area but she just might not have"it" for grouse.

No where in there do I disparage Scooby or his get.


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## slammer

Drifter Saver said:


> All of the other BS aside within this thread (mostly from one source), I have some friends in Iowa who have his offspring and have spoken highly of them so far. They generally stay with the more recently proven NSTRA and NBHA dogs around their area for breeding, but it will be interesting to see how the Butch pups evolve for them.


I recently talked with some guys out west, Brice may have been his name, that was very excited about his butch breeding. I was more interested in his direct son of Tomoka =)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Drifter Saver

slammer said:


> I recently talked with some guys out west, Brice may have been his name, that was very excited about his butch breeding. I was more interested in his direct son of Tomoka =)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Brice is his name. I didn't know he had any shags laying around there...must have been a stray


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## FieldWalker

Laphroaig said:


> I have said three times that anyone can find John Smith with his (fill in the versatile) and best a pointer or setter on any given day; but that is a variable. That is a MICRO factor.


The variable isn't just the dog though... it is also the hunter. The only constant is the bird... and that is argueable. Good dogs are good dogs and good hunters are good hunters. I'm in the belief that a legitimate upper echelon hunter can and will kill more birds no matter the breed or hunting style (flushing/pointing). It is the hunter that works the dogs to it's strengths. The dog only knows what is in it's blood and what it has been exposed to (bird contacts/training/etc.).

"John Smith's" hunting style may be better suited for a dog at one end of the spectrum while a coverdog may be at the other. You may put more birds in the bag with the coverdog, but John may have just the opposite result. So what is the better breed? It depends on the hunter. The indivual hunter and his/her hunting techniques can only truely define what makes a dog productive... 

Luckily, with as many bird hunting breeding programs out there, you can literally pick a style and then search a breed... or you can pick a breed and then search a litter that suits your particular hunting style. This notion that there is an answer to what is "best" is laughable. The average hunter could not handle the average dog entered in coverdog competitions... which is why many serious pointing dog grouse hunters (not trialers) prefer a dog slightly removed from some of these lines. 

*Trialing is not a search for the best breed...*


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## FindTheBird

Drifter Saver said:


> Brice is his name. I didn't know he had any shags laying around there...must have been a stray


:lol:
I didn't know he had setters. I still think he's a good guy! 
Earlier this Spring we were trying to get my male and one of his (nicely bred) females together. Just couldn't work-out the time and travel logistics to make it happen.


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## 2ESRGR8

FindTheBird said:


> :lol:
> I didn't know he had setters. I still think he's a good guy!
> Earlier this Spring we were trying to get my male and one of his (nicely bred) females together. Just couldn't work-out the time and travel logistics to make it happen.


Lucky for me or else I'd be known as 2e*P*rgr8. 

Is that the one Mike?


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## slammer

The HIGHER ESTEEMED people who offered advice lined up with my fears; she may be great in one area but she just might not have"it for grouse]
I have a Scooby dog that did pretty good on grouse last year at 1 year old.
As someone else said. There are a multitude of variables. Start with good breeding, sufficient exposure, hunter abilities and in the end you have what you put into it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Drifter Saver

Regarding Brice, I know he has some Blackhawk/Swami females. He must have been thinking about a line breeding for Swami. I have a daughter out of Sinbad bred to Mayflower (CH Explorer x CH Sunflower), but I haven't yet decided what I want to do with her. I don't know if I am a fan of linebreeding the Hannah Elhew Lou lines. I know people that have concerns with that even though my dog is already doubled up with her. Either way for now she will continue to hunt which she is a pleasure to do that with...especially on grouse...even though she is a Pointer from AA breedings that was trained by a small potatoes NSTRA guy.


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## Laphroaig

FieldWalker said:


> The variable isn't just the dog though... it is also the hunter. The only constant is the bird... and that is argueable. Good dogs are good dogs and good hunters are good hunters. I'm in the belief that a legitimate upper echelon hunter can and will kill more birds no matter the breed or hunting style (flushing/pointing). It is the hunter that works the dogs to it's strengths. The dog only knows what is in it's blood and what it has been exposed to (bird contacts/training/etc.).
> 
> "John Smith's" hunting style may be better suited for a dog at one end of the spectrum while a coverdog may be at the other. You may put more birds in the bag with the coverdog, but John may have just the opposite result. So what is the better breed? It depends on the hunter. The indivual hunter and his/her hunting techniques can only truely define what makes a dog productive...
> 
> Luckily, with as many bird hunting breeding programs out there, you can literally pick a style and then search a breed... or you can pick a breed and then search a litter that suits your particular hunting style. This notion that there is an answer to what is "best" is laughable. The average hunter could not handle the average dog entered in coverdog competitions... which is why many serious pointing dog grouse hunters (not trialers) prefer a dog slightly removed from some of these lines.
> 
> *Trialing is not a search for the best breed...*



I agree with virtually everything you mentioned. Frankly, I stated as much in earlier posts. The one you quoted was repeated and abridged as I am as tired of the bickering as the rest of you. I agree about all the variables. That was my point. We can go on and on with examples. I concluded that wild grouse trials should end the disputes about which breeds traits principally produce the ideal grouse dog based on a standard. Joe Blow's standard is different than Bob Smiths. Thus the trailing world was formed.

I do think trials help one recognize the best breed in its venue, so we disagree. Someone smarter than me said a grouse trial dog is simply a hunting dog on public display. If I wanted a wide ranging dog to find quail, I'd look to the AA horseback dogs and quickly see the breed of highest esteem is the English Pointer.


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## Jay Johnson

FieldWalker said:


> which is why many serious pointing dog grouse hunters (not trialers) prefer a dog slightly removed from some of these lines. *...*


That is exactly right, when I am looking for a grouse gun dog I much prefer to see an ancestry that is flavored more by dogs owned by folks who put grouse killing at the top of their list when evaluating the effectiveness of their dogs.

In some respects the demands a serious grouse hunter puts on a dog hunting it long hours, multiple days in a row, over a 3 month season theoretically might require more dog than the average grouse trial dog.

That is not to say that the average grouse trial dog might not be suited it is just as a hunter trying to evaluate potential parents for my next prospect, I have no way of knowing this.

Consequently, I generally end up buying a pup from other folks who are also serious grouse hunters, hunt like I do, and value the same quality of dog work I do which is basically that they can point and hold grouse and will retrieve them once shot.

That said every setter I've owned has had at least a portion of their blood from field trial dogs. The majority of the trial dogs in thier ancestry have been of the horseback shooting dog type and not the grouse trial type.

.


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## BIGSP

N M Mechanical said:


> I am glad to find out today that if I don't have a dog from bruce or Scott Berg not to waste my time and money this fall on grouse hunting I will have a lot more time to duck hunt
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Since you're quitting I'll feed your dogs and maybe see if they can point a grouse or two.


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## 2ESRGR8

BIGSP said:


> Since you're quitting I'll feed your dogs and maybe see if they can point a grouse or two.


Don't waste the food. :evilsmile


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## FieldWalker

Laphroaig said:


> I do think trials help one recognize the best breed in its venue, so we disagree. Someone smarter than me said a grouse trial dog is simply a hunting dog on public display.


Anyone with a good trial dog will tell you that the dog knows the difference between a trail and hunting. I don't agree that coverdog trials are just hunting dogs on display. These dogs are competing against each other and I'm a firm believer they know that... 

While hunting, the only judge you have is the taken game in the back of your vest. How snappy your dog looks or the amount of ground covered means nothing... Just birds and only birds. While at a coverdog trial you're judged by folks that have a great passion for very large running bird dogs. Direct bird contacts are not the only thing scored. Anytime you have "style" judged by man, you'll be at the mercy of personal discretion. 

Would a coverdog champ from 40-50 years ago stand out like today's styled up dogs? Hunters love the style but are primarily concerned about the results.



Laphroaig said:


> If I wanted a wide ranging dog to find quail, I'd look to the AA horseback dogs and quickly see the breed of highest esteem is the English Pointer.


You're attracted to the bigger running dogs. It sounds like that is what best suits your style. 

Being an above average hunter is more than picking a breed and name dropping.

Instead of reading forums and talking to people and deeming this as sacred knowledge... I've invested boot leather behind all of the dogs (and breeds, trial venues, and hunt test) I can... not trying to back into a philisophical corner, but trying to pick up every drop of knowledge I can and apply it to chasing birds... not ribbons.


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## N M Mechanical

BIGSP said:


> Since you're quitting I'll feed your dogs and maybe see if they can point a grouse or two.


Would you like my maps and ammo also 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laphroaig

FieldWalker said:


> Anyone with a good trial dog will tell you that the dog knows the difference between a trail and hunting. I don't agree that coverdog trials are just hunting dogs on display. These dogs are competing against each other and I'm a firm believer they know that...
> 
> While hunting, the only judge you have is the taken game in the back of your vest. How snappy your dog looks or the amount of ground covered means nothing... Just birds and only birds. While at a coverdog trial you're judged by folks that have a great passion for very large running bird dogs. Direct bird contacts are not the only thing scored. Anytime you have "style" judged by man, you'll be at the mercy of personal discretion.
> 
> Would a coverdog champ from 40-50 years ago stand out like today's styled up dogs? Hunters love the style but are primarily concerned about the results.
> 
> 
> 
> You're attracted to the bigger running dogs. It sounds like that is what best suits your style.
> 
> Being an above average hunter is more than picking a breed and name dropping.
> 
> Instead of reading forums and talking to people and deeming this as sacred knowledge... I've invested boot leather behind all of the dogs (and breeds, trial venues, and hunt test) I can... not trying to back into a philisophical corner, but trying to pick up every drop of knowledge I can and apply it to chasing birds... not ribbons.



I got your pm....no problem.

The quote I mentioned was from William Harden Foster. Repeated to me by Lloyd Murray and Dave Hughes. 

I'm a hunter. I am going to run 2 dogs in Gladwin here soon and those are on wild grouse/woodcock. I did one RGS fun trial. I will do more only because it is a joint money program which benefits habitat locally. 

I ran my then 8 month Llewellin Setter in a RGS trial this spring. I worked him all winter on delivery to hand and he is spectacular in my judgement. He is whoa broke to the point the judge (justin) gave him a big complement. I spent no less than $600 on chuckar in the time the snow melted till the trial. He busted 2. He handled 38 pointed, shot and retrieved to hand like a pro. He pointed 20 or more pigeons and is steady to wing and starter pistol on them. (but not the chuckar!). I thought I would shock the world on trial day as the day before he pointed, held retrieved 6 out of six flawlessly.

Trial day came, every bird in my brace was up and walking or running. He came unglued as an 8 month old would. He hit the heavy cover which was out of bounds. I went home disappointed but that's how it goes. Trials have plusses and minuses. I'm readying my dogs and we will see what happens. But first and foremost I'm interested in grouse dogs.


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## FindTheBird

Drifter Saver said:


> _*Regarding Brice, I know he has some Blackhawk/Swami females. He must have been thinking about a line breeding for Swami.*_ I have a daughter out of Sinbad bred to Mayflower (CH Explorer x CH Sunflower), but I haven't yet decided what I want to do with her. I don't know if I am a fan of linebreeding the Hannah Elhew Lou lines. I know people that have concerns with that even though my dog is already doubled up with her. _Either way for now she will continue to hunt which she is a pleasure to do that with...especially on grouse...even though she is a Pointer from AA breedings that was trained by a small potatoes NSTRA guy_.


I believe that's what what Bryce was shooting for. It's kind of counter-intuitive, but AA-bred dogs can do grouse and do them well! I take it you're not trialing her at this point? 


2ESRGR8 said:


> Lucky for me or else I'd be known as 2e*P*rgr8.
> 
> Is that the one Mike?


:lol: Yep, that's the one you were asking about earlier this year. I think she was already coming into season when he decided he wanted to go with Rock, but we just couldn't get them together with time & distance constraints. I think he found another stud closer to home, but I can't remember who.


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## crosswind

FieldWalker said:


> Anyone with a good trial dog will tell you that the dog knows the difference between a trail and hunting. I don't agree that coverdog trials are just hunting dogs on display. These dogs are competing against each other and I'm a firm believer they know that...
> 
> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> While hunting, the only judge you have is the taken game in the back of your vest. How snappy your dog looks or the amount of ground covered means nothing... Just birds and only birds. While at a coverdog trial you're judged by folks that have a great passion for very large running bird dogs. Direct bird contacts are not the only thing scored. Anytime you have "style" judged by man, you'll be at the mercy of personal discretion.
> 
> Would a coverdog champ from 40-50 years ago stand out like today's styled up dogs? Hunters love the style but are primarily concerned about the results.
> 
> 
> 
> You're attracted to the bigger running dogs. It sounds like that is what best suits your style.
> 
> Being an above average hunter is more than picking a breed and name dropping.
> 
> Instead of reading forums and talking to people and deeming this as sacred knowledge... I've invested boot leather behind all of the dogs (and breeds, trial venues, and hunt test) I can... not trying to back into a philisophical corner, but trying to pick up every drop of knowledge I can and apply it to chasing birds... not ribbons.


 
...


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## crosswind

Laphroaig said:


> I got your pm....no problem.
> 
> The quote I mentioned was from William Harden Foster. Repeated to me by Lloyd Murray and Dave Hughes.
> 
> I'm a hunter. I am going to run 2 dogs in Gladwin here soon and those are on wild grouse/woodcock. I did one RGS fun trial. I will do more only because it is a joint money program which benefits habitat locally.
> 
> I ran my then 8 month Llewellin Setter in a RGS trial this spring. I worked him all winter on delivery to hand and he is spectacular in my judgement. He is whoa broke to the point the judge (justin) gave him a big complement. I spent no less than $600 on chuckar in the time the snow melted till the trial. He busted 2. He handled 38 pointed, shot and retrieved to hand like a pro. He pointed 20 or more pigeons and is steady to wing and starter pistol on them. (but not the chuckar!). I thought I would shock the world on trial day as the day before he pointed, held retrieved 6 out of six flawlessly.
> 
> Trial day came, every bird in my brace was up and walking or running. He came unglued as an 8 month old would. He hit the heavy cover which was out of bounds. I went home disappointed but that's how it goes. Trials have plusses and minuses. I'm readying my dogs and we will see what happens. But first and foremost I'm interested in grouse dogs.


 Man, I just don't get it. You tell us you have 38 years experience, yet proclaim yourself a Novice. ???? Perhaps just a bit slow learning ahh.
Now just a few posts back you are spouting off about several reasons why pointers/setters/trial dogs have no need/reason to retrieve. Now here you tell us you worked him all winter to deliver to hand. Stop teaching him to deliver you a beer from the fridge, cause it wrecking your memory.:lol:


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## Scott Berg

FindTheBird said:


> I believe that's what what Bryce was shooting for. It's kind of counter-intuitive, but AA-bred dogs can do grouse and do them well! I take it you're not trialing her at this point?
> 
> :lol: Yep, that's the one you were asking about earlier this year. I think she was already coming into season when he decided he wanted to go with Rock, but we just couldn't get them together with time & distance constraints. I think he found another stud closer to home, but I can't remember who.


Mike,

The AA thing is really misunderstood. About 5 years ago, a friend of mine who has been quite successful in NSTRA said to me he disliked AA dogs. At the time he had the three best dogs by far he had ever owned, all multiple CHs. One was out of CH Tekoa Mountain Patriot, another was out of a daughter of Tekoa Mountain Sunrise and the other had a variety of HB CHs in the background.

Obviously, I pointed this out to him to which he replied OK but I dont like the AA format at all. The bottom line is that AA trials dont look at all like hunting and therefore many hunters do not understand how the attributes required to win AA translate to hunting. Actually, the internet has perpetuated the impression that these dogs are just renegades. Its understandable that it would not occur to most hunters that it takes one heck of a cooperative/smart dog to be pushed to that extreme and still handle as well as demonstrate flawless manners around game.

Is a dog directly out of an AA CH right for most hunters? Probably not, but I would take one a couple generations removed with the right selection process if I were looking for the ultimate gun dog.


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## Laphroaig

crosswind said:


> Man, I just don't get it. You tell us you have 38 years experience, yet proclaim yourself a Novice. ???? Perhaps just a bit slow learning ahh.
> Now just a few posts back you are spouting off about several reasons why pointers/setters/trial dogs have no need/reason to retrieve. Now here you tell us you worked him all winter to deliver to hand. Stop teaching him to deliver you a beer from the fridge, cause it wrecking your memory.:lol:


I consider myself a novice on grouse hunting and all things grouse. Perhaps I have less hubris than you; but who knows.

Ok, once again...find.me.where.I.spouted.off.about.several.reasons.why.pointers/setters/trial dogs have no need/reason to retrieve. You have misquoted me on so many occasions I'll make this offer:

Back up your statement- and if you do I'll donate $100 to your RGS chapter.

Go ahead, find it....find where I said what you pulled out of your ****. Copy it for the board to see. But, when you can't find it; because it doesn't exist; will you please shut your trap and let this pot simmer down?


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## Drifter Saver

FindTheBird said:


> It's kind of counter-intuitive, but AA-bred dogs can do grouse and do them well! I take it you're not trialing her at this point?


I agree as almost any of them can do grouse well if trained and exposed properly. I only trialed her a few times. To be honest, I have only ran a few times myself in the last couple of years. I am continuing to work dogs and have enough of them to fill all my kennels (almost), but while my kids are in travel sports, my focus is going to be on them for a few years...oh and I finally realized that I was small potatoes and could no longer live vicariously through the other big boys


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## Steelheadfred

Scott Berg said:


> Mike,
> 
> The AA thing is really misunderstood. About 5 years ago, a friend of mine who has been quite successful in NSTRA said to me he disliked AA dogs. At the time he had the three best dogs by far he had ever owned, all multiple CHs. One was out of CH Tekoa Mountain Patriot, another was out of a daughter of Tekoa Mountain Sunrise and the other had a variety of HB CHs in the background.
> 
> Obviously, I pointed this out to him to which he replied OK but I don&#8217;t like the AA format at all. The bottom line is that AA trials don&#8217;t look at all like hunting and therefore many hunters do not understand how the attributes required to win AA translate to hunting. Actually, the internet has perpetuated the impression that these dogs are just renegades. It&#8217;s understandable that it would not occur to most hunters that it takes one heck of a cooperative/smart dog to be pushed to that extreme and still handle as well as demonstrate flawless manners around game.
> 
> Is a dog directly out of an AA CH right for most hunters? Probably not, but I would take one a couple generations removed with the right selection process if I were looking for the ultimate gun dog.


AA retriever trials look nothing like the average duck hunt, but I sure am glad they are around, even for a guy that uses duck dogs to hunt grouse....


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## Steelheadfred

Laphroaig said:


> I consider myself a novice on grouse hunting and all things grouse. Perhaps I have less hubris than you; but who knows.
> 
> Ok, once again...find.me.where.I.spouted.off.about.several.reasons.why.pointers/setters/trial dogs have no need/reason to retrieve. You have misquoted me on so many occasions I'll make this offer:
> 
> Back up your statement- and if you do I'll donate $100 to your RGS chapter.
> 
> Go ahead, find it....find where I said what you pulled out of your ****. Copy it for the board to see. But, when you can't find it; because it doesn't exist; will you please shut your trap and let this pot simmer down?


 
Chal,

I spent 8 hours walking next to Scott Townsend, we were judging an RGS stake, give him a little respect and be thankful he is willing as a top level dog man to share info with us online.

There is no winning internet debates, as much as I like to think so...:lol:


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## Laphroaig

Steelheadfred said:


> Chal,
> 
> I spent 8 hours walking next to Scott Townsend, we were judging an RGS stake, give him a little respect and be thankful he is willing as a top level dog man to share info with us online.
> 
> There is no winning internet debates, as much as I like to think so...:lol:



Fritz, 

I like the heck out of you and don't really know you at all. I like your leadership, aggressiveness, entrepreneurship and the RGS promotions and habitat lobbying efforts are all significant. But, that post is B.S.!!

I don't give a crap who you walk next to. Respect is earned and I don't appreciate your post. This whole debate was settling down. Scott chose to pull another MISQUOTE falsely accuse me all over again and I called him out!!

You have the audacity to tell me my manners? Not so fast. 

Scott....WHERE IS THE PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR CRAP MISQUOTING ME??

Fritz, you seem to run in the fast lane....you find that so called quote Scott Townsend made up about me and I'll write your RGS chapter a $1,000 check. But if you cannot, you write a $1,000 check to the PETOSKEY/Harbor RGS chapter.....deal?


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## Steelheadfred

Laphroaig said:


> Fritz,
> 
> I like the heck out of you and don't really know you at all. I like your leadership, aggressiveness, entrepreneurship and the RGS promotions and habitat lobbying efforts are all significant. But, that post is B.S.!!
> 
> I don't give a crap who you walk next to. Respect is earned and I don't appreciate your post. This whole debate was settling down. Scott chose to pull another MISQUOTE falsely accuse me all over again and I called him out!!
> 
> You have the audacity to tell me my manners? Not so fast.
> 
> Scott....WHERE IS THE PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR CRAP MISQUOTING ME??
> 
> Fritz, you seem to run in the fast lane....you find that so called quote Scott Townsend made up about me and I'll write your RGS chapter a $1,000 check. But if you cannot, you write a $1,000 check to the PETOSKEY/Harbor RGS chapter.....deal?


 
Chal,

I like your intensity, that's what I tell my brother when he tosses a club on the golf course.

OK, instead of respect, how about "credit" ? It's hard to argue with the success Mr. Townsend has! Just take my word for it, that's all I ask.


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## Scott Berg

We should all mind our manners because there is no excuse for adults no being able to have a debate and remain civil.

Back to the thread ... Fritz,

You asked how do you evaluate 50 dogs/yr. If by you , you mean the Pointer breeders I referenced, their methods all vary somewhat but they have common elements. All of them have large tracts of property they either own, lease or a combination there of. For example, Sean Derrig who is a Real Estate developer bought a 500+ acre farm and groomed it for developing bird dogs. They all have hired help. The amount of time, effort, and money the invest makes this level of selectivity very unrealistic for the nearly any bird dog hobbyist. Some of them take huge numbers of dogs to the prairies in the summer, one of them I mentioned is in Texas. All of them have enormous rigs and travel extensively.

As a group, these men are the whos who of the trial world. Once when riding along with Sean Derrig at a CH, we were discussing the results of these methods when it came up that he had over 100 Championship placements as an Amateur. More to the point, the results of the efforts are tested in the toughest field trial venues in our sport. Its one thing to win a local event, it is entirely another to win against a field comprised of the top dogs from across the country. I have rode along at the national qualifiers held on the prairie. In the middle of absolutely nowhere, the top competitors from across the nation travel from their camps across ND, SD, MT, and Canada to qualify for the Natl CH. The animals and the performance at this level is a daunting task for any hobbyist and it is a rarity to find an amateur even competing in these trials. The handful that due are very well known across the country.

If by you, you meant Ben and I, we have never reached 50 in a single year. Our most ever was 39. For starters, you have to have the facilities to house this many dogs. We have a 5,000 sq ft facility and 54 acres fenced for training. We keep a couple hundred bobwhites and TN Reds on hand at all times that are flown nearly every day so we have birds that are generally strong flyers. This provides us with the means to get a good start at a very young age. We start our pups on liberated birds at around 18 weeks and we are done with liberated birds by 5 to 5 ½ months old. I am sure you have seen the videos. They are pointing solid, most are retrieving to hand naturally, and many are already backing.

At the end of this initial evaluation we are only going to keep what we deem to have the potential to absolutely superior individuals, roughly the top 1/3. Think of it as the equivalent of keeping the top 10 players in the NBA draft. We will definitely not be right anywhere near 100% of the time but the vast majority of elite players are chosen in the top 5 or 6 picks and there are going to be more elite players (starters) in the top 10 picks than in picks 11-30. You could also look at this way  Would you rather have the first 10 picks or just 1 pick that at 8 weeks old you dont know if it is even in the top 10 individuals. Sure, you could give that puppy more attention and get the most out of it but that would not change the natural ability of the dog and therefore its suitability to contribute to a breeding program. 

That puppy program is equivalent to the first year. Obviously, we would be a lot more accurate assessing what kind of NBA player a draft pick is going to be after the first year.
The top 10 or so then go on a wild bird tour. We start on the prairie, then move to the woods, and then travel south late in the year for quail. These different venues all provide different insights as to the strengths and weaknesses of the individuals, especially intelligence and application. Along the way we learn a bunch about their ability to handle wild birds too.

SRB


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## Steelheadfred

Thanks Scott, good stuff.


Chal,

I'm just giving you my "experience" with the man, you've stated your experiences that's all.


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## Laphroaig

Steelheadfred said:


> Chal,
> 
> I like your intensity, that's what I tell my brother when he tosses a club on the golf course.
> 
> OK, instead of respect, how about "credit" ? It's hard to argue with the success Mr. Townsend has! Just take my word for it, that's all I ask.


Let's try this....

If I was braced in a heads up NSTRA match with Scott Townsand and one of his GSP dogs; I'd figure to take my beating like a man.

If I wanted to know anything about NSTRA; I'd shut my pie hole and soak in whatever Scott Towsend had to say. The same goes for FF, yard work, tame bird work, backing.

That's as far as I'd go right now. How's that Fritz? That's a pretty good start considering the man's last post.


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## Scott Berg

This photo was taken in 2009 when Travis Gellhaus over-nighted at our kennel. This is one of his two rigs and it houses 30+ dogs. His assistant drives the other rig. He now has a permanent residence in Saskatchewan but 3 years ago Travis traveled with both rigs from Georgia to Canada for summer training and was turned away at the border (long story). I think he told me the fuel bill was nearly $5K.


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## Steelheadfred

Tell me more about the little black dog down on the end? :lol:


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## Mr. Botek

Drifter Saver said:


> while my kids are in travel sports, my focus is going to be on them for a few years...oh and I finally realized that I was small potatoes and could no longer live vicariously through the other big boys


I for one am looking forward to the day you start producing litters again, regardless of the size of your potatoes! I'm happy with the spud I recieved!


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## N M Mechanical

I thought we already found out last year pointing labs where the best!!!!!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kek25

It's funny. There's a lot written in this thread about certain breeds being bred for years to increase their proficiency at finding and handling grouse; grouse trials being the venue that deterimines the best of the best grouse dogs; versatile dogs not being as proficient as setters and pointers at handling grouse. And when specific examples are provided to the contrary they're explained away as variables. 

A bird dog of any breed can be trained to proficiently handle grouse and become a good grouse dog. Many, however, will never be great grouse dogs no matter what the breed.  

Unfortunately, there are a lot of dogs in all breeds that aren't bird dogs and can't even become good grouse dogs. 

Two of the best grouse dogs I've ever hunted over were direct sons of Tekoa Mountain Sunrise, an all age prairie dog whose lineage was not based on perfecting the ultimate grouse dog. In essence Tekoa Mountain Sunrise was a different breed yet produced very proficient grouse dogs.

The lessons in this thread provided by the ones with the most experience are very subtle. Read what is being written and give it some consideration instead of just trying to prove a right, which on an internet forum is illusory.

Scott Townsend is right. The proficiency of a grouse dog is not defined from breed to breed, but instead from dog to dog.


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## slammer

The entertainment value is priceless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kek25

slammer said:


> The entertainment value is priceless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not nearly as good as "Mad Men;" although the title fits. :lol::lol:


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## chewy

Laphroaig said:


> I agree with virtually everything you mentioned. Frankly, I stated as much in earlier posts. The one you quoted was repeated and abridged as I am as tired of the bickering as the rest of you. I agree about all the variables. That was my point. We can go on and on with examples. I concluded that wild grouse trials should end the disputes about which breeds traits principally produce the ideal grouse dog based on a standard. Joe Blow's standard is different than Bob Smiths. Thus the trailing world was formed.
> 
> I do think trials help one recognize the best breed in its venue, so we disagree. Someone smarter than me said a grouse trial dog is simply a hunting dog on public display. If I wanted a wide ranging dog to find quail, I'd look to the AA horseback dogs and quickly see the breed of highest esteem is the English Pointer.


funny thing is I know someone who ran his shorthair in an AF event (pointers). here in Kentucky. he took second. should have taken a first but the judge knew he would have been in trouble.


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## Merimac

Laphroaig, 

Please unplug your keyboard.


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## Firemedic

Laphroaig said:


> Am I missing something?


Nope. I just think everyone is sick of listening to you running your mouth and insulting everyone, that's all Lapfrog.

Now I see why you got kicked off of the other forum. I see you headed in that direction here too. Let's keep our fingers crossed!


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## Merimac

Firemedic said:


> Nope. I just think everyone is sick of listening to you running your mouth and insulting everyone, that's all Lapfrog.
> 
> Now I see why you got kicked off of the other forum. I see you headed in that direction here too. Let's keep our fingers crossed!



Anyone know how to make a poll?


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## Firemedic

Merimac said:


> Anyone know how to make a poll?


It is a frickin miracle anyone posts here anymore, including any of the pros that help everyone out here. 

It doesn't matter how many years you have training/trialing dogs, internet experts trump the real deal.

Carry on.


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## sfw1960

Let's cool it down guys.


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## Mr. Botek

Firemedic said:


> Nope. I just think everyone is sick of listening to you running your mouth and insulting everyone, that's all Lapfrog.
> 
> Now I see why you got kicked off of the other forum. I see you headed in that direction here too. Let's keep our fingers crossed!


I second that!


----------

