# Court Case ?



## swampbuck

Would it be possible to have gear restrictions overturned in court ?

Another possible.....how about the Legislature?


----------



## broncbuster2

Its in the works!!!!!!!


----------



## toto

Yes a court case would be possible, however, the cost factor for both sides would be high, and frankly I, nor the group of guys associated with it can afford it. It could however, go to something like arbitration, or mediation perhaps, but frankly, I don't think it will go that far.

We have determined there are ways to get around a court action. I won't spell them out here, too many people reading our stuff ya know? Lets just say, that the above post is all that needs to be said right now.


----------



## swampbuck

Great, I was just thinking about what could work....I have very little faith in the MDNR/NRC regarding rational or unbiased decisions.

Oh yea.......You guys are doing an awesome job!


----------



## bonefishbill

swampbuck said:


> Would it be possible to have gear restrictions overturned in court ?
> 
> Another possible.....how about the Legislature?


Why not just learn to fly fish ?

Maybe work on a three buck limit next !


----------



## broncbuster2

Quite frankly Mr Bonefish Bill.....
You should just stay in OHIO , 
Let US worry about Michigan.


----------



## Ranger Ray

bonefishbill said:


> Why not just learn to fly fish ?


We did. Those that didn't need the help of flies only water.


----------



## Splitshot

Bill,

I know how to fly fish and like it very much. This is an issue that has to do with the rights of fishermen and what is fair. Most of the fly fishermen I know dont feel they need special rules or any other advantage to catch trout and dont mind sharing the water with people who fish with other methods.

I for one like catching fish and sometimes catching them on flies is not the best way. In fact sometimes it is almost impossible. For those guys who would not consider fishing any other way than with flies, fish the way you like, but dont push for rules that discriminate against the majority of fishermen so you can up the odds for your success.

I have lived in other states so I welcome trout fishermen from other states that dont have the opportunities that we have in Michigan. It does seem disingenuous that you want us to give up our rights for you when you havent offered anything in return. I dont see any reports from you or any pictures or any evidence that you want to contribute anything yet you continue to make condescending remarks about the way some of us choose to fish. 

Perhaps you have some good reason for gear restrictions you havent told us about and if you do, I encourage you to tell us about them. Thanks.


----------



## quack head

Cheeseman Canyon Colorado. Hike into that river and tell me Gear and take restrictions does not do a fishery well. especially in a tail water.


----------



## Boozer

quack head said:


> Cheeseman Canyon Colorado. Hike into that river and tell me Gear and take restrictions does not do a fishery well. especially in a tail water.


The fact it's so close to a MAJOR city makes it a bit different than say the Pere Marquette River though...


----------



## quack head

Boozer said:


> The fact it's so close to a MAJOR city makes it a bit different than say the Pere Marquette River though...


Understandable, but if I am not mistaken. It became a Fly only catch and release in 1974. The first in the states. Now If you have been there you can clearly see the size and amount of fish are incredible. I would love to have something like that in Michigan. Wouldn't you?


----------



## Boozer

quack head said:


> Understandable, but if I am not mistaken. It became a Fly only catch and release in 1974. The first in the states. Now If you have been there you can clearly see the size and amount of fish are incredible. I would love to have something like that in Michigan. Wouldn't you?


I would venture to guess there is a LOT more to it than simply having gear restrictions though...

If you don't have a great and constant food supply, you don't have large numbers of big fish, simple as that...


----------



## fishinDon

IMO, Comparing cutthroat trout in Colorado to German Browns in MI is not a true apples to apples comparison (not to mention the difference in habitat).

If our trout lived for 7+ years, I might actually be interested in some restrictions. Since they only live 2 years (brookies) and 4 years (browns) maximum, then restrictions are a tough sell since they don't have time to work before the fish are all dead of natural causes. Our DNR research has shown as much.

That said, one point that was made is valid. The only place where additional restrictions of some sort (probably not gear, but size/bag) are valid is where there's a concern about the fishery being over-exploited. None of our best trout fisheries are near big cities therefore, I don't think there's a big concern about any of them being over-exploited. I've made mention of this before, but restrictions on a river like the Upper Black in Pigeon River State Forest make very little sense, since the pressure is already so light. 

Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of fishermen are already releasing most or all of their catch. Trout fishing in Michigan is already very, very good. I'm in my mid-30's and I don't really remember the fishing being better than it is now. My father is in his early 60's and told me just this past weekend that fishing has never been as good in his lifetime as it is now. I never fish restricted water, neither does my dad, yet we've never seen such good fishing. Pressure is decreasing over time. Harvest is decreasing over time. Restrictions on the small amount of bait fishing/harvest that is occuring on our rivers is likely not going to produce a measurable result. IMO, we are chasing ghosts with these regs.

Don


----------



## quack head

I agree. Habitat, proximity to large city, water temp ect. Are all going to play into what happens to fish in a givin river. But where do you start? I believe there has been talk of converting the Mio Dam into a bottom flow instead of top flow dam to stablize water temps. I have heard stories of a dump that was removed years ago in the Holy waters section. And that prior to it's removal nutrient content of the run off help with a healthier invertabrea population. Which in turn prodced larger, more abundant, and healthier trout. 

We should be able to agree that the AuSable river and it's trout should have every oppertunity to thrive to be the best it can. If gear restriction is a step in that direction i'm all for it.


As far as the life span of a Brown Trout in the trophy waters? I have read studies that have aged Browns up to 10 years of age. ( i will try to find a link for you) Can you please link the D.N.R. infor that read on trout life span in the AuSable?


----------



## quack head

IMO, Comparing cutthroat trout in Colorado to German Browns in MI is not a true apples to apples comparison 


What is in the South Platt in Cheeseman Canyon is mostly Rainbows. Large monster torpedo Rainbows. Unfortunatly a large wild land fire ripped through their and Deckers And a massive fish kill was the result. I think it was 5 years ago. Hopefully it is recovering and will once be what is was.


----------



## Boozer

Large fat worthless ugly looking Rainbows would be a little more accurate


----------



## quack head

Boozer said:


> Large fat worthless ugly looking Rainbows would be a little more accurate


 
I agree we can't eve eat'em:lol:.


----------



## quack head

Two thing. I know from reading here in these forums there are those that have little faith in our D.N.R. Also I'm assuming that this thread is about the Trophy Waters. And that this paragraph is about the Holy Waters. But what would it take to get the same results in th T.W. 

If you make the arguement that the fish are not even natually reproducing. What if we can make it so? Would gear restriction then be excepted? Remember the fish can roam. Through taging/gps a brown in the T.W. section has been shown to travle up to 10 miles in a day.

Linky http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_46403_46404-194797--,00.html

Unlike many streams in Michigan (or elsewhere), the Holy Water of the Au Sable is completely dependent on natural reproduction. (From above link)


----------



## quack head

We have not stocked that section of the Au Sable since 1965," Sendek said. "It is a totally self-sustaining trout population -- brook, brown and rainbow. Combined with our current no-kill, year-round flies-only fishing regulations, we're managing for quality


----------



## fishinDon

Here's some data on the Au Sable trout numbers, unfortunately they lump everything over 12" into one category, but I think that gives you a good idea, of just how few older fish are around. 12" is usually a 2 year old fish. So all the 2, 3 and 4 year old fish don't add up to much, click around on all the links. The other thing of note here is that the population has been all over the board over the years, in spite of the fact that gear restrictions and C/R regs have been in place forever. 

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10364_52259_10951_11302-114740--,00.html

I saw a presentation by the DNR on the average length of a brook/brown trout at certain ages back in Feb. I'm trying to get my hands on the data. They don't publish an average for Brown trout over age 4 because they don't ever find more than a handful all over the state each year.

Don


----------



## quack head

*F-80-R-9, Michigan*



*Reg might have already posted this but I couldn't open the link.*


----------



## quack head

While we could argue all day about different studies, it doesnt matter. Gear restriction only restrict fishermen and cant be reconciled by your vision of what kind of fishery you dream about. The DNR field biologist have stated that gear restrictions and fishermen even the ones who keep fish overall have little effect on the fishery but all that doesnt seem to matter to people like you even if I do understand where youre coming from.

Bait fishing is a time honored tradition and is enjoyed by millions of people in this country. Keeping and eating fish with friends and family is also a tradition and Ill be dammed if some enlightened do rights are going to belittle me for keeping and eating them because they only enjoy playing with nature.


Splitshot, I am not a pureist fly fisherman. My brother and I have a place on a creek that is all tackle and we treat it so. I am not above tossing worms or using spinners. It works. My nephew will start his trout fishing when ready with worms. And if he takes to it and enjoys it we will see how he progresses.

Look, you make some very valid points on the right to fish and how you choose to do it. If I am not mistaken we have the most miles of fishable trout streems in the states. I just would really like to have a comparable streatch of river to some western rivers. I love the big water of the Ausable, I love floating it, I just want it to be the best that it can be.


----------



## quack head

If Directed at me.

Bait fishing is a time honored tradition and is enjoyed by millions of people in this country. Keeping and eating fish with friends and family is also a tradition and Ill be dammed if some enlightened do rights are going to belittle me for keeping and eating them because they only enjoy playing with nature.

I never "belittled" you or anyone els on this thread or on this subject. 

Am I enlighted? 100% bet your ars I am, by being able to fish and hunt in our great state and others in our county.


----------



## Splitshot

quack head said:


> Splitshot, I am not a pureist fly fisherman. My brother and I have a place on a creek that is all tackle and we treat it so. I am not above tossing worms or using spinners. It works. My nephew will start his trout fishing when ready with worms. And if he takes to it and enjoys it we will see how he progresses.
> 
> Look, you make some very valid points on the right to fish and how you choose to do it. If I am not mistaken we have the most miles of fishable trout streems in the states. I just would really like to have a comparable streatch of river to some western rivers. I love the big water of the Ausable, I love floating it, I just want it to be the best that it can be.


It doesnt matter how many miles of trout water we have in Michigan, it still does not justify restricting most fishermen from waters owned equally by everyone. 

I want all our waters to be the best they can be but again the excuse we must keep bait fishermen off the best waters in the state doesnt justify it and besides gear restrictions dont help make them what you want anyway.



quack head said:


> If Directed at me.
> 
> Bait fishing is a time honored tradition and is enjoyed by millions of people in this country. Keeping and eating fish with friends and family is also a tradition and Ill be dammed if some enlightened do rights are going to belittle me for keeping and eating them because they only enjoy playing with nature.
> 
> I never "belittled" you or anyone els on this thread or on this subject.
> 
> Am I enlighted? 100% bet your ars I am, by being able to fish and hunt in our great state and others in our county.


Not directed at you and Im glad you are enlightened and are able to fish and hunt in our great state, but I am not able to fish the best waters in Michigan the legal way I enjoy fishing because another group of enlightened sportsmen has used their political clout to force rules that exclude me and a majority of other trout fishermen for no reason. Gear restrictions do not protect the trout, doesnt make the fishing better, they only protects a certain group of fishermen from having to share the waters we all own with people like me.

For many reasons our rivers will never be like some western rivers, but having fished many western rivers, I think many of our rivers offer better trout although our trout are much more difficult to catch. Much more challenging.

Of course if we hid feeders up and down our rivers we could draw trout to these areas and they would get much bigger and easier to catch. If you did that, you wouldnt have to worry about fishing with me because I dont just say I love the challenge, but actually enjoy the challenges of trout fishing and wouldnt get much enjoyment catching even big fat trophy food stamp trout.

The whole idea somehow if we discriminate against some fishermen so some other fishermen can fish big trophy full to capacity trout rivers is actually repulsive to me.


----------



## broncbuster2

We moved 1 step closer to no more gear restrictions.


----------



## troutguy26

So hows this just to see what some people think about it. What if we overturned those flies only regs and switched them to worm only. Then those people who get big stretches of river to themselves wouldnt have it anymore and maybe see the other side of the story. Would everyone want to play together nicely then?


----------



## broncbuster2

I have never had a problem fishing beside a fly guy,
Guess they have a problem fishing beside me...
No i don't want any worm only, Every river should be open to everybody 
reguardless of what method they prefer to use.


----------



## quack head

broncbuster2 said:


> I have never had a problem fishing beside a fly guy,
> Guess they have a problem fishing beside me...
> No i don't want any worm only, Every river should be open to everybody
> reguardless of what method they prefer to use.


Na it's not that, at least not in my circle. Although we all know some people are always going to look down ther nose at others. It's just that there is a mind set that one method is less harmful than another. 

I'll site an example.....Billy Joe Bob is chucking worms with barbed hooks.....Theodor is dantilly placing a size 20 dry (i'm just kidding guys)

But you get ther picture. Now be honest in your answer please.

Which hook barbed or not has the potential to cause greater damage to a fish?

If you intend to keep the fish than it's a non issue.

And again just trying to lighten it up.


----------



## Robert Holmes

Did it ever occur to the DNR that fly fishermen have access to every public stream and lake in the whole state? So DNR how many streams, rivers, or lakes are hardware only or live bait only? If you are going to cater to one group why not cater to other groups. Fortunately my favorite fishing streams are not gear regulated but if they were, I am sure that I would keep them busy writing tickets


----------



## Splitshot

Quack Head,

Since the number of released fish that die has no effect on the fishery, it is a non issue even though some studies show that barb-less hooks do more damage than hooks with barbs.

The point is, all fishermen should be treated with equal respect and allowed to fish all public rivers. 

No matter what method you use, some of the fish returned will die but all the data shows that the fisheries still stay healthy. Our idea is to improve the habitat in all our rivers and lakes and that attract more fishermen, women and kids into our fraternity. The more barriers and the worse the fishing, the less fishermen we will have. We need to open the best waters to all fishermen to encourage them to fish.

Catching fish is what keeps people coming back and investing in the sport. Taking the best waters for a special group of fishermen is counter productive even is it is good for them.

The forest service need to open up roads instead of closing roads so we can spread out the opportunities. The DNR has to use their resources to create more boat launches on more lakes and quit bowing to local lake associations who want to keep the public out and always because they want to protect the resource from the public abuse.

They never consider that all citizens have equal rights to the water if there is public access. Without someone standing up to all these special interests groups we all loose. 

As more people understand the Public Trust Doctrine the more pressure there will be for all concerned to abide by our Constitution.


----------



## quack head

Did it ever occur to the DNR that fly fishermen have access to every public stream and lake in the whole state?

I believe it has. As spin fishermen have access to flies only waters. Splitshot on the line and a nymph. Clear float bubble and a dry.

As far as bait? Well there is no way around that. But I see your point.


----------



## quack head

Our idea is to improve the habitat in all our rivers and lakes and that attract more fishermen, women and kids into our fraternity. The more barriers and the worse the fishing, the less fishermen we will have. We need to open the best waters to all fishermen to encourage them to fish

Couldn't agree more. Aslong as out methods are as least harmfull to the fish as possible. I'm still not sold one way or the other. But I'm sure you read my post. What ever is best for the fishery I will go with.


----------



## Robert Holmes

With tourism down and gas prices up absolutely very few boaters the fishing can only get better. I only saw a handful of guys on the river spring steelhead fishing. This summer I am lucky to see anyone out on the lake downrigger fishing, I have been out there a few times but not enough to hurt the population any. I cannot wait until fall steelhead fishing looks like another short deer season.


----------



## beer and nuts

I can honestly say that the whole SB of the AuSable, the best fishing has ALWAYS been the stretch NOT with gear restrictions! 

Even though as a kid/teenage many years ago, the Mason tract provided excellent summer fishing with Mepps spinners! :evil:


----------



## swampbuck

beer and nuts said:


> I can honestly say that the whole SB of the AuSable, the best fishing has ALWAYS been the stretch NOT with gear restrictions!
> 
> Even though as a kid/teenage many years ago, the Mason tract provided excellent summer fishing with Mepps spinners! :evil:


I agree.

When I was a younger I prefered to use a #12 pink nighty over near the chapel.......several years later I noticed that sign over at chase.:SHOCKED:


----------

