# English Setter Question



## KEITH207 (Feb 17, 2005)

I was doing a little research in to the linage of my 6 mo old female setter Abby and have a question.

I can't find any info on Grouse Hill setters. I found web sites for the other breeders in her lineage like Gouse Ridge and Gouse River setters. 

Any info or comments would be appreacated

Thanks
Keith


----------



## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Dawn Powell?? Maybe??? I am not sure if Dawn was Grouse Hill Acres but for some reason this rings a bell.

Grouse Hill Acres	in Delton MI????

Only a guess. Smith Bred dogs???


----------



## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

If you will list the Grouse Hill dogs names on your pedigree there are guys on this board that have the E. setter database and can maybe give you some clues.


----------



## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Merimac said:


> Dawn Powell?? Maybe??? I am not sure if Dawn was Grouse Hill Acres but for some reason this rings a bell.
> 
> Grouse Hill Acres in Delton MI????


I'm pretty sure you're right about that Ben, and like you, I think the official name for that kennel is "Grouse Hill _Acres_" and not "Grouse Hill _Setters_" but maybe she goes by both.

Dogwhistle has purchased at least several setters from Grouse Hill Acres and they're fantastic dogs.


----------



## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

Grousehill Acres is a small kennel near Delton owned by Dawn and Ross Powell. the reason you cant find anything on the internet is that they dont have a website. her tx is 269 664 5085.

she has bred primarily grouse trial dogs over the years. sires in her pedigrees include; Memphis Cowboy, Grouse Ridge Hank, the Performer, Pinecone Max, Wrongway and Cant Go Wrong.

she used to advertise in Gun Dog magazine. now it's only word of mouth, mostly repeat buyers. she isnt trialing anymore and has only raised one litter per year for the last couple of years. i dont think she is raising any this year, could be wrong.


----------



## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

In my copy of the setter pedigree program there are only 2 Grouse Hill named dogs listed.
Ruby
Mollymae, and Molly is out of Ruby


----------



## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

dogwhistle said:


> Grousehill Acres is a small kennel near Delton owned by Dawn and Ross Powell. the reason you cant find anything on the internet is that they dont have a website. her tx is 269 664 5085.
> 
> she has bred primarily grouse trial dogs over the years. sires in her pedigrees include; Memphis Cowboy, Grouse Ridge Hank, the Performer, Pinecone Max, Wrongway and Cant Go Wrong.
> 
> she used to advertise in Gun Dog magazine. now it's only word of mouth, mostly repeat buyers. she isnt trialing anymore and has only raised one litter per year for the last couple of years. i dont think she is raising any this year, could be wrong.


Mike,

 I really dont want to bust your chops again but for god sake four of the six dogs you mentioned are Horseback Champions yet you characterize her program as having bred primarily grouse trial dogs over the years.

Memphis Cowboy was a Horseback Champion. He won the Pacific Coast CH and he was also R/U at the Canadian Open Shooting Dog Championship as a first year Shooting Dog in 1982. He did have plenty of grouse Ridge John. He also had a variety of Commander blood via Mr. Thor, Turnto, and Toronado.

The Performer who I bred to and had several dogs out of was a 7X Horseback Champion. His sire Pinnacle and his dam Cashmasters DD were both HB champions. He did produce Crystal Light who won the Lakes States Grouse Championship and the Grand National Grouse Championship.

Grouse Ridge hank was a 3X HB Champion. He did have some grouse blood but he also had Mr. Thor, Toronado, Im Oscar and Long Gone Sam who was a HB dog.

Pinekone Max was a HB Champion of primarily Smith and Commander descent. There are virtually no cover dogs in his ancestry.

 SRB


----------



## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

you arent busting my chops. i wasnt aware that Grouse Ridge Hank had horseback wins, but i did know about the rest of them.

i just listed some of the notable dogs, but most of the pedigrees are what most people would consider grouse trial breeding. i've told you several times before that one of my dogs is out of a Pinecone Max daughter. and all of them have some Pinecone Max in them as well as the other dogs listeed farther back.

cripes, Scott all the quarterhorses i have owned have contained some TB blood. but that doesnt make TB's cutting horses or stock horses.

here's what i think, if a dog can get 90% or more of his grouse pointed staunchly and do it with style and class, and run not just potter like he was looking for a lost watch, and have some range and hunt to objectives and handle nicely. well, then that's a grouse dog. i dont care if you found him running along the road. but, as they say, the proof is always in the pudding.


----------



## KEITH207 (Feb 17, 2005)

The sire's is out of Grouse River Striker and Sweet Delilah Rose.
The dams parents are Grouse Hill Refection and Grouse Hill Alibi.

Both have Grouse Ridge Hank and Grouse River Megan with other Grouse Ridge dogs in the lineage.

Abby is doing very well. She is birdie, points well, has had birds shot over her and loves to retrieve.

She is also a great house dog and loves people. 
[/COLOR] 
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Abby_6_mo.JPG


----------



## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

The sire is only 50% of the equation.


----------



## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

KEITH207 said:


> The sire's is out of Grouse River Striker and Sweet Delilah Rose.
> The dams parents are Grouse Hill Refection and Grouse Hill Alibi.
> 
> Both have Grouse Ridge Hank and Grouse River Megan with other Grouse Ridge dogs in the lineage.
> ...


Grouse Hill Reflection was her in house sire. he just died last year. he was a pretty good sized dog, maybe 60 lbs and tricolor. he was by Pinecone Max an all age champion and out of a daughter of Grouse Ridge Hank. give dawn a call, she'll be glad to talk about her dogs. 

i assume you found Grouse Rivers website.

i bred my own male to one of Dawns females a little over a year ago. she was mich grouse puppy of the year about 8 yrs ago. super nice dog but she couldnt get her bred even though she had her to a very well known mich breeder and also tried with her own stud dogs. she couldnt resist Zips charms and i ended up with a real nice pup out of the deal.

she's just a small breeder but she has nice dogs as she breeds mostly to champion studs which gives a lot of depth to the pedigrees. and she doesnt let her ego get in the way. 

kek- that's true. however a lot of the dogs i mentioned were sires of dams.


----------



## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

dogwhistle said:


> here's what i think, if a dog can get 90% or more of his grouse pointed staunchly.....


You ever own one of those?


----------



## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Mike, I was referring to Scott's comment concerning the horseback lineage of the sires you mentioned.

Scott (Berg): Are you saying that there really is no such thing as a "grouse trial dog breeding program?"


----------



## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

kek- not sure where we are going with this. but in the examples i gave, for the kennel in question, those horseback dogs are more often the sires of her dams. the are often on the bottom of the pedigrees. but it does take two to tango. and i was really happy when i got to breed to her exceptionally nice female "Ladybird" as that raises the chances of a nice pup.

i think that grouse trial breeding selects for dogs that handle grouse well. i'm not a trialer but to me, that's a lot of what trialing is about and it's logical. dogs that bump grouse dont win trials. scott can speak for himself but we've argued it several times.

for 2ES etc. i make it a policy not to brag my dogs on the internet especially. they are nice dogs, i will say that, and i'm very appreciative of many breeders kennels and the dogs in their pedigrees.


----------



## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Scott (Berg) seems to take exception when comments posted include such statements as "the breeder breeds from traditional 'Cover Dog' lines" or ". . .she has bred primarily grouse trial dogs over the years."

It's not unusual for breeders striving for certain characteristics in the dogs they produce to outcross to, for instance, horseback lines in order to bring something into their programs that might be lacking without losing characteristics they deem favorable for the type of dog they're trying to produce. 

I'm trying to understand why Scott takes exception to the terms "Cover Dog" lines or "grouse trial dogs" and just wondering if Scott feels that there really is no such thing as a "grouse trial dog" breeding program or a "cover dog" breeding program and why. Not because I'm trying to be argumentative, but just to get a perspective from his years of experience.


----------



## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i agree with you. i was around horses more than dogs in the past and you see that a lot. probably the greatest sire of quarterhorses is a thoroughbred named Three Bars. he added a lot of agility and quickness.

in this particular case i asked dawn why she bred to pinecone max. she was looking for heat endurance. i cant say she got it particuarly, but that was the reason. 

i think whenever you seperate out- such as "coverdog" that you are liable to get more criticism. personally, i dont see it as "my dog is better than your strain of dogs". just different. just like the all age dogs are different and have traits that are worth looking at.

i've seen scott and ryan frame really go at it- in a polite way. i just hold their coats then, i'm no expert on pedigrees to say the least.

also i think coverdogs/grouse trial dogs have seen more attention in recent years because they are foot hunted and worked on wild game. i was drawn to them because i wanted an outcross and a dog that handled grouse really well. no "flash points".<G> i havent been dissapointed. and i dont think many have.

scott raises some classy looking dogs and so do a lot of other non coverdog breeders. lifes too short, the budgets too limited and the kennels to small to try all the class dogs.


----------



## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

kek25 said:


> Scott (Berg) seems to take exception when comments posted include such statements as "the breeder breeds from traditional 'Cover Dog' lines" or ". . .she has bred primarily grouse trial dogs over the years."
> 
> It's not unusual for breeders striving for certain characteristics in the dogs they produce to outcross to, for instance, horseback lines in order to bring something into their programs that might be lacking without losing characteristics they deem favorable for the type of dog they're trying to produce.
> 
> I'm trying to understand why Scott takes exception to the terms "Cover Dog" lines or "grouse trial dogs" and just wondering if Scott feels that there really is no such thing as a "grouse trial dog" breeding program or a "cover dog" breeding program and why. Not because I'm trying to be argumentative, but just to get a perspective from his years of experience.


KEK,

This is a poor medium so it's quite easy to misinterpret. I take zero exception to the term cover dog line. There are without question breeders who focus on grouse trial dogs. The vast majority of them are Setter breeders. My objection was very specific. The program being praised was in Mike's account based on cover dog lines. Four of the six dogs that Mike mentioned as the foundation for the program in question are without question HB dogs. That representation is simply not accurate. 

I do have a problem with the theory they handle grouse better than other dogs. As I have said previously Pointer breeding certainly does not support this theory and neither does my considerable experience with a wide variety of Setter lines from both Cover dog and HB ancestry. We have chosen the dogs we have in large part because of great bird handling and manners around game. 

Anyone who applies plenty of boot leather and diligent selection can produce great wild bird dogs without every attending a field trial.

SRB


----------



## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Thanks for the explanation Scott. If the HB dogs in question were bred to dogs from traditional "cover dog" lines would that warrant referral to the program as a grouse dog or cover dog breeding program if the intent is to access some specific traits from the HB dogs for addition into the particular breeding program or does the program then become a hybrid program?


----------



## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i've run dogs on wild grouse and on quail leftover from field trials. it's pretty easy to bump a grouse. it's almost impossible to bump pen raised quail. sometimes you almost place kick them to get them to flush.

as far as crossing the lines, that's been done a fair amount. flanagans used a lot of smith dogs and vice versa. it's not what you are crossing with that determines whether it's a grouse trial dog or all age dog. it's what you get- what the offspring can do. if they can place in grouse trials they are grouse dogs, if they can place in all age trials ..... in other words, did they inherit the traits they need to win in that type of competetion or more subjectivly still, to be a superior hunting dog in the type of hunting intended.

i gave a description of what i think a grouse dog is earlier and i think it's pretty accurrate. on the other hand, a grouse dog could be just about anything if it's being used to hunt grouse with. i've seen all kinds in the woods, including heinz 57 squared.

Terry Depue of sonic collars was a grouse trialer. he had a description of a grouse dog that i printed off. it's not copyrited and i'll send it to you if you want.


----------



## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Thanks Mike, I'd appreciate that. Did you mean send by US mail or e-mail? If us mail I'll PM you my address. If e-mail, my e-mail is [email protected]


----------

