# CWD Found....



## anonymous7242016

TVCJohn said:


> Glad to see someone else noticed that too!



Ya ...... tracker noticed your agreement&#127995;


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## motdean

Did anybody notice the age of the deer?....This has been a topic over and over on the board. It has been observed more in older deer and in male deer. 

(It was a 6 year old doe...)

But let's not let facts get in the way of a good debate.....


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## Liver and Onions

agbuckhunter said:


> Well.....after they kill the majority of whitetail in that county and surrounding counties...should make for some affordable recreational land&#55357;&#56853;


Maybe. Sure do feel sorry for the guys/families that have invested a lot of time, effort and money into their deer hunting land in that area.

L & O


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## anonymous7242016

beer and nuts said:


> Nope..just the blind eye that most take on food plots. Again, if you are serious about cwd, you might consider food plot bans if not mandatory, at least encourage voluntary. If you defend the food plot usuage as status quo, you are part of the problem.



Again...... 
Banning bait or food plots is going to very little. IMO banning them before cwd showed up would of been a better tactic. 
At this point isolation is the best we can do. 
A better move would be locate the source.


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## Tracker83

I wonder which group will more actively participate in the deer "eradication" in the CWD core area? The qdm-minded hunters or the gotta-git-my-buck-off-my-bait-pile hunters? The answer to that question will show which group is actually the most serious about controlling this ugly disease.


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## anonymous7242016

motdean said:


> Did anybody notice the age of the deer?....This has been a topic over and over on the board. It has been observed more in older deer and in male deer.
> 
> (It was a 6 year old doe...)
> 
> But let's not let facts get in the way of a good debate.....



Shhh.....

We don't want to talk about that. Sparkie killers every where are strengthening their trigger fingers because now they can use the " good steward of the resource" theme.


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## Spartan88

A large pack of wolves would take care of the problem, they'd take care of quite a few wolf lovers pets too...


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## sniper

beer and nuts said:


> Nope..just the blind eye that most take on food plots. Again, if you are serious about cwd, you might consider food plot bans if not mandatory, at least encourage voluntary. If you defend the food plot usuage as status quo, you are part of the problem.


Ok now it's Dr. Beer and Nuts! 

From your astute hypnosis knowledge of this scientific subject, Sunday I will be planting a 1 acre plot of Alfa Rack, top off with a dash of fertilizer. Thanks for the bologna toss!


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## motdean

bucksnbows said:


> Shhh.....
> 
> We don't want to talk about that. Sparkie killers every where are strengthening their trigger fingers because now they can use the " good steward of the resource" theme.





Tracker83 said:


> I wonder which group will more actively participate in the deer "eradication" in the CWD core area? The qdm-minded hunters or the gotta-git-my-buck-off-my-bait-pile hunters? The answer to that question will show which group is actually the most serious about controlling this ugly disease.


 
If I read Tracker's post correctly, I am guessing that the QDM'ers will be highly participatory.....I am sure it is only to be stewards of the land...


You know, the guys that want to grow 'em big (and old).....because that is what's best for the herd.....

There is an awesome white paper on Concerned Sportsman that a few people ought to go (re-)read.


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## Jager Pro

"For example, when Wisconsin first discovered CWD in free-ranging deer in 2002, it was assumed to be a recent introduction, and management initially focused appropriately on disease eradication. However, subsequent surveillance revealed that the disease was already widespread by the time of discoveryl2l, making the prospects for eradication very unlikely."

If it was found all the way in Meridian then I bet it will soon come out that it is the same case in Michigan.


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## CHASINEYES

You boys need to clean your hunting boots and quad tires after those out of state weekend adventures, now look what you've done.

Seriously though, it was only a matter of time. It's here to stay just like any other place it shows up. Could this have been related to the kent county debacle?


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## HUBBHUNTER

Jager Pro said:


> "For example, when Wisconsin first discovered CWD in free-ranging deer in 2002, it was assumed to be a recent introduction, and management initially focused appropriately on disease eradication. However, subsequent surveillance revealed that the disease was already widespread by the time of discoveryl2l, making the prospects for eradication very unlikely."
> 
> If it was found all the way in Meridian then I bet it will soon come out that it is the same case in Michigan.


My fear as well. This may be the last season of "normal" hunting that many of us have for the foreseeable future. Our new future may be geared toward brown is down rather than being selective after filling your freezer..


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## Jager Pro

motdean said:


> Did anybody notice the age of the deer?....This has been a topic over and over on the board. It has been observed more in older deer and in male deer.
> 
> (It was a 6 year old doe...)
> 
> But let's not let facts get in the way of a good debate.....





> Shhh.....
> 
> We don't want to talk about that. Sparkie killers every where are strengthening their trigger fingers because now they can use the " good steward of the resource" theme.


Well the management plan does state that it's best to target family groups which includes young deer in an effort to prevent or slow the spread. 

"Density reductions should target entire family groups (does and their fawns) to
minimize the probability of disease persistence, and yearling bucks to minimize the probability of disease spread via dispersal."


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## anonymous7242016

motdean said:


> If I read Tracker's post correctly, I am guessing that the QDM'ers will be highly participatory.....I am sure it is only to be stewards of the land...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, the guys that want to grow 'em big (and old).....because that is what's best for the herd.....
> 
> 
> 
> There is an awesome white paper on Concerned Sportsman that a few people ought to go (re-)read.



I agree. 

Time will tell. 

My prediction..........


Qdmers will kill does at will.

Non qdmers will kill any deer at will.

When the dpsm gets to about 8 

They will both complain and we will still have cwd.


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## anonymous7242016

HUBBHUNTER said:


> My fear as well. This may be the last season of "normal" hunting that many of us have for the foreseeable future. Our new future may be geared toward brown is down rather than being selective after filling your freezer..



Yep........

Fortunately I'm not locked into any michigan property beyond 2017 and could always travel for " normal " hunting.


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## Robert Holmes

Spartan88 said:


> A large pack of wolves would take care of the problem, they'd take care of quite a few wolf lovers pets too...


1000 hungry wolves have seemed to do a good job of managing all of the wildlife in the UP. We would be only too happy to donate 999 of them to the wolf lovers.


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## johnhunter

HUBBHUNTER said:


> My fear as well. This may be the last season of "normal" hunting that many of us have for the foreseeable future. Our new future may be geared toward brown is down rather than being selective after filling your freezer..



Won't affect my farm much. We pretty much target every doe that comes within range and the occasional 3.5+ year old buck.

Of course, the "brown down" mob won't notice much difference....at first.


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## QDMAMAN

k9wernet said:


> Meridian Township has been trying to reduce their deer population for a number of years allowing a controlled hunt in the parks and golf courses. Of course, the East Lansing/Okemos tree huggers have been up in arms over the process.
> 
> Looks like the hunt was too little too late and nature stepped in.


Actually, there's considerable cooperation among Meridian Twsp residents in support of the controlled hunt including many private property owners allowing the registered hunters to access their parcels.


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## woodie slayer

sad,sad,sad....bad news for sure...feel sorry for that 3 county area..i've seen what happened to our deer herd with unlimited permits here in the TB zone where i live.
after seeing wisconsin what they went threw it's scary for sure..


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## stickbow shooter

For sale , all hunting related stuff .


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## Robert Holmes

Unlimited antlerless permits are going to put $$$$$$$ in the DNR pocketbook.


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## TheWanderingCock

For all practical purposes, anterless permits have been "unlimited" in that part of the state for years. Tens of thousands of left over permits are available every year. Anyone that wants can get as many as they need. The problem is getting people to use them.


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## stickbow shooter

I bet the MFB are doing backflips about now.


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## Alan Michaels

Holy crap
That ban will be one of our counties.
Down to two counties now.


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## plugger

Habitat is the key and as long as there are areas of dense cover pockets of deer will be protected and pockets of cwd will be protected. There is a large multi dairy farm that I use to hunt does on that got proactive in the early TB years. They had shot what they could for years but were still over run with deer. In a couple years they were able to take their population to almost zero by managing habitat. Any areas not in crop production were managed for mature timber and all under brush was either brushoged or sprayed with tordon or crossbow. Any deer that did show up was an easy target. Deer can be effectively controlled in open land but are next to impossible to control by hunting or shooting in areas with heavy brush. Limited access will also negate efforts to shoot down the herd. Michigan hunters are too selfish to be effective in controlling or isolating CWD.


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## Walt Donaldson

Environmental Resistance Factors. Just a reminder that we're not in control.


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## QDMAMAN

soggybtmboys said:


> I am curious, with the close proximity to Eaton and Livingston counties, why would these not be included as well?


The area is a 10 mile radius around the site of the infected specimen. If more deer are found, I suspect that the area will expand. 
As of right now, Eaton County (Delta Twsp) is +-1 mile outside of ground zero straight west.


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## Alan Michaels

Luv2hunteup said:


> Please come up with a definition of a food plot that also doesn't also apply to an AG field.


One is necessary and the other is not.
What is the necessity of a food plot?


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## Marasarie

It will cost over a million dollars to implement the CWD plan. I don't think there will be that many additional licenses sold to make up that kind of money.


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## FREEPOP

soggybtmboys said:


> The disease is caused by the transmission of infectious, self-multiplying proteins (prions) contained in saliva and other body fluids of infected animals. Susceptible animals can acquire CWD by direct exposure to these fluids or from environments contaminated with these fluids or the carcass of a diseased animal. Once contaminated, research shows that soil can remain a source of infection for long periods of time, making CWD a particularly difficult disease to eradicate.
> 
> Unless you are unfamiliar with food plots, that dirt gets turned over as much or more than ag fields, thus burying prions down in the soil and getting them off surface exposure. The professional wildlife divisions encourage wildlife plantings and selective clear cutting for forest regeneration for deer feeding areas.
> 
> Swing again......


In Colorado they removed the soil and it still came back


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## Alan Michaels

QDMAMAN said:


> The area is a 10 mile radius around the site of the infected specimen. If more deer are found, I suspect that the area will expand.
> As of right now, Eaton County (Delta Twsp) is +-1 mile outside of ground zero straight west.



What does the "3 Counties" mean?
Maybe we are good.


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## QDMAMAN

Alan Michaels said:


> What does the "3 Counties" mean?
> Maybe we are good.


I assume that the 10 mile radius includes _parts_ of 3 counties. Meridian Twsp (Okemos on the map) is in the northern portion of Ingham County and the 10 mile "hot zone" would cover parts of Clinton and Shiawassee Counties.


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## Alan Michaels

QDMAMAN said:


> I assume that the 10 mile radius includes _parts_ of 3 counties. Meridian Twsp (Okemos on the map) is in the northern portion of Ingham County and the 10 mile "hot zone" would cover parts of Clinton and Livingston Counties.


This is the no bait area right?


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## stickbow shooter

How should the DNR go about trying to manage this situation ?


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## TheWanderingCock

It's Ingham, Clinton, and Shiawassee counties. Not Livingston.


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## QDMAMAN

Alan Michaels said:


> This is the no bait area right?




Establishing a Core CWD Area consisting of Alaiedon, Delhi, Lansing, Meridian, Wheatfield and Williamstown townships in Ingham County; Bath and DeWitt townships in Clinton County; and Woodhull Township in Shiawassee County. Unlimited antlerless deer hunting licenses will be available. Mandatory checking of deer will be required in this area during hunting seasons and restrictions will apply to the movement of carcasses and parts of deer taken in this area.


*Creating a CWD Management Zone, which will include Clinton, Ingham and Shiawassee counties.*


Implementing a deer and elk feeding and baiting ban, which will include the Core CWD Area *and *the larger three-county CWD Management Zone.


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## QDMAMAN

TheWanderingCock said:


> It's Ingham, Clinton, and Shiawassee counties. Not Livingston.


Correct. My mistake that I was correcting when you posted.


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## Alan Michaels

stickbow shooter said:


> How should the DNR go about trying to manage this situation ?


Flip a coin comes to mind.
Or maybe eeny, meeny, miny, moe


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## QDMAMAN

stickbow shooter said:


> How should the DNR go about trying to manage this situation ?


 
For starters, how about following the plan that was put in place in 2002 and consulting with other state's agencies that are having success with containment?


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## Alan Michaels

TheWanderingCock said:


> It's Ingham, Clinton, and Shiawassee counties. Not Livingston.


Well my cousin will be bumming, but he can just come hunt with me.


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## QDMAMAN

Alan Michaels said:


> Well my cousin will be bumming, but he can just come hunt with me.


 
Or maybe stay home and be part of the solution. :idea:


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## Midalake

Holy Cow............This thread has been a melt down. EVERYONE down state should know CWD will NEVER kill as many deer as wolves have in the UP...........

I do not see a problem.............It is also going to be tough to have sympathy from north of the bridge.


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## Groundsize

Take a good look at Wisconsin. Michigan will follow. Unlimited doe tags, rifle hunts, sharp shooters. Southern michigan will be no different than Wisconsin and look how wiped out there deer herd is. The michigan dnr has no management plan do you actually think they actually have a plan for this???? Take a good look at Wisconsins management plan and how that imploded and pust everone off.


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## Alan Michaels

QDMAMAN said:


> Or maybe stay home and be part of the solution. :idea:


10 acres, and with the 450 ft rule he is real limited, the only way he gets deer is with bait.


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## Robert Holmes

Marasarie said:


> It will cost over a million dollars to implement the CWD plan. I don't think there will be that many additional licenses sold to make up that kind of money.


I am sure that they won't be selling any additional licenses in the UP. As it is we are one hard winter away from having some serious wolf and/or coyote problems. When it happens I would hate to be the one that has to be in front of the tv cameras.


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## Alan Michaels

Groundsize said:


> Take a good look at Wisconsin. Michigan will follow. Unlimited doe tags, rifle hunts, sharp shooters. Southern michigan will be no different than Wisconsin and look how wiped out there deer herd is. The michigan dnr has no management plan do you actually think they actually have a plan for this???? Take a good look at Wisconsins management plan and how that imploded and pust everone off.


What did you expect from Wisconsin? They tried to name that state the mitten state? Shoot, the only way that looks like a mitten is a mitten fell out of a truck on 131 and was run over for a week!


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## U of M Fan

Luv2hunteup said:


> The next step in eradication. I'm all for it.
> 
> HeliHunter - The Best Helicopter Hog Hunting Video Ever!!!!!! - YouTube



Save your bullets!!! We can move some wolves over there.


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## QDMAMAN

Midalake said:


> I do not see a problem.............*It is also going to be tough to have sympathy* from north of the bridge.


Do you mean for us trolls or for the deer?


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## Jager Pro

Midalake said:


> Jesus Christ............This thread has been a melt down. EVERYONE down state should know CWD will NEVER kill as many deer as wolves have in the UP...........
> 
> I do not see a problem.............It is also going to be tough to have sympathy from north of the bridge.


As someone who hunts on both sides of the bridge I don't want either issue to be a big problem for the herds.


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## anonymous7242016

Jager Pro said:


> As someone who hunts on both sides of the bridge I don't want either issue to be a big problem for the herds.



As someone who lives in michigan ......


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## Alan Michaels

Hey does 3 on a side apply for eradication too?


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## Midalake

QDMAMAN said:


> Do you mean for us trolls or for the deer?


For the nice people downstate...............


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## sniper

Relax people!..We were all supposed to be dead from last year's Ebola outbreak also.

This "thinning of the herd" happened long before us, and will happen long after us. Usually it's never as bad as the initial blow. Colorado hasn't stopped deer hunting and they have had cwd since the 70's. Some people are underestimating the species.


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## jjlrrw

Alan Michaels said:


> This is the no bait area right?


The plan in 2002 was...

"Further, the NRC implemented a 50-mile buffer
zone around the state. If CWD is discovered within
50 miles of any state border, all baiting and feeding
activities in the adjacent peninsula will be
immediately banned."

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CWD_39369_7.pdf

In 2008 it was banned for the entire LP


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## Jager Pro

Someone said that there was supposed to be a press conference at 4 today right? Any idea what the DNR said at it?


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## billmitch

sniper said:


> Relax people!..We were all supposed to be dead from last year's Ebola outbreak also.
> 
> This "thinning of the herd" happened long before us, and will happen long after us. Usually it's never as bad as the initial blow. Colorado hasn't stopped deer hunting and they have had cwd since the 70's. Some people are underestimating the species.


Is 
This. ^^^ Tis isnt good, but, do everything possible to mitigate spread, and deal with it. perhaps someone has more info but in other states with it, deer hunting hasnt ended. 
Ban baiting and even thiugh you cant prevent deer from eating from AG fields encourage people not to food plot either. Focus harvest on young bucks and does and try to keep populaton densities down. sucks but we knew it was comng.


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## anonymous7242016

billmitch said:


> Is
> 
> This. ^^^ Tis isnt good, but, do everything possible to mitigate spread, and deal with it. perhaps someone has more info but in other states with it, deer hunting hasnt ended.
> 
> Ban baiting and even thiugh you cant prevent deer from eating from AG fields encourage people not to food plot either. Focus harvest on young bucks and does and try to keep populaton densities down. sucks but we knew it was comng.



........Within a certain area.


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## Luv2hunteup

Eradication of the deer herd in the impacted area is what is called for. The DNR can't ban AG fields, food plots, Grandma's garden or your wife's perennial flower garden. I would like the DNR to hold landowners responsible for ridding their land of all deer in the hot zone. It is their job to manage the deer herd. Options would be kill them yourselves, invite hunters in or contract it out. 24/7 hunting should start now, fawns will have little chance of making it on their own.


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## calhoun

Wow! I really hope by some of the comments on here these people are joking around. The whitetail deer is a very social animal, fluids exchanged from deer to deer would be a daily activity in a normal doe family group or buck bachelor group. Do we somehow forget that these deer reproduce every year? Not sure if it possible to get more fluid exchange then that. Lol. The hole idea of keeping deer from congregating is laughable at best. Deer in the winter will naturally congregate on the best food sites available eat it and move on to the next. I truly believe this is not a new disease to our herd, we just never new it was here. You can put the blame on any side you want, but I can guarantee you has nothing to do with either side. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## anonymous7242016

calhoun said:


> Wow! I really hope by some of the comments on here these people are joking around. The whitetail deer is a very social animal, fluids exchanged from deer to deer would be a daily activity in a normal doe family group or buck bachelor group. Do we somehow forget that these deer reproduce every year? Not sure if it possible to get more fluid exchange then that. Lol. The hole idea of keeping deer from congregating is laughable at best. Deer in the winter will naturally congregate on the best food sites available eat it and move on to the next. I truly believe this is not a new disease to our herd, we just never new it was here. You can put the blame on any side you want, but I can guarantee you has nothing to do with either side.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire



Well said.


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## swampbuck

Here is the post I was thinking about regarding food plots.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536409&highlight=Russ+Mason&page=3

And the post about CWD uptake through the roots to the leaves of plants

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=538962

Seems to me that if you stirred and spread prions on the ground with a disc, plow, etc., and planted that area, the risk would jump exponentially.


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## Alan Michaels

Nocturnal Ghost said:


> This is going to be very interesting, for those not familiar with Meridian Township It is a very populated area about 40,000 people that includes about half of East Lansing and parts of MSU.
> 
> Won't be a lot of high powered rifle hunts I'm guessing.


Well could this have came from MSU itself?
Isn't that where they do some testing?
It has happened before, Killer Bees in Brazil come to mind.
Although not escaping from a lab, we are dealing with Asian Carp that escaped.

I believe the part circled is the MSU Diagnostic Center for Population and Animal Health.


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## motdean

Munsterlndr said:


> Certainly an unfortunate turn of events, this is a day that everyone hoped would never come.
> 
> Mitigation efforts will be very difficult to implement, due to the urban nature of ground zero. I'm very familiar with that area of Meridian Township and unfortunately eradication is not a viable option to pursue.
> 
> Containment is really the only realistic approach. It's likely that the disease will spread, how quickly and how far it spreads is largely going to depend on what approach is taken, both by the DNR and by hunters and land owners living within the containment zone area. There are steps that can be taken, both mandatory and voluntary, that can effectively help slow the spread of the disease and help mitigate it's impact.
> 
> *It remains to be seen whether sportsmen will put aside their own personal agenda's and take the steps needed to help limit the spread but unfortunately I'm not optimistic in that regard.*


 
Just before reading your post, I was thinking that it will be interesting to see if people will cease baiting in the affected (and maybe surrounding areas). Looking back at the bTB crisis, it did not appear as though side of the road bait stands were at all hampered in their sales during the baiting ban.....


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## Alan Michaels

Is there any landfills in that area?
Maybe somebody at MSU simply threw out some tissue from testing or teaching.

Or I am wondering with the location so close to the school, if this is just a study for testing reaction?
Lets face it, they would have all the resources at their availability, tons of students that they could put in the field for data collection and to observe.
Wonder if there is really CWD and if so, where did it come from.


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## cakebaker

Nocturnal Ghost said:


> This is going to be very interesting, for those not familiar with Meridian Township It is a very populated area about 40,000 people that includes about half of East Lansing and parts of MSU.
> 
> Won't be a lot of high powered rifle hunts I'm guessing.


I'm sure they will plant the ehd midge to take care of it.


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## hillbillie

I know it's a long shot but
Could the deer have traveled from the infected area of Kent Co. via the Grand river or railroad systems.


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## Luv2hunteup

Is it true there are at least 3 deer farms in the area of the CWD outbreak?


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## Luv2hunteup

hillbillie said:


> I know it's a long shot but
> Could the deer have traveled from the infected area of Kent Co. via the Grand river or railroad systems.



Or via a trailer, it's not like it hasn't happened before.


Press Release:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE March 2, 2009

Contact: Mary Dettloff 517-335-3014

Kent County Private Cervid Facility Charged With Violation of Quarantine

The operators of a private cervid facility located in Kent County's Algoma Township have been charged with violation of the Michigan Department of Agricultures (MDA) Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) Quarantine Order issued in August 2008 after a three-year old Kent County female white-tailed deer tested positive for the disease.
James and Brian Schuiteman, owners of J & B Whitetails, were recently arraigned in 63-1 District Court in Rockford and charged with violating Michigans Animal Industry Act for movement of an animal in violation of the quarantine placed on their facility by MDA. This is a felony charge carrying a penalty of $1,000 to $5,000 in fines and imprisonment of up to five years. The Schuitemans waived their right to a preliminary exam in court today.
The charge stems from an incident on Aug. 23, the day after the quarantine was issued by MDA. At approximately midnight, Department of Natural Resources Conservation Officers David Rodgers and Michael Mshar observed two persons enter the quarantined facility with flashlights and a tranquilizer gun. The officers witnessed the subjects seek out a specific deer, tranquilize it, and then remove the deer. The deer was loaded into an enclosed trailer, and towed from the property, where officers conducted a traffic stop to detain the suspects.
Officers determined a live male white-tailed deer was contained in the trailer with identification tags removed. Upon questioning the suspects, the officers learned it was their intent to release the buck into the wild. Officers returned the animal to the facility where it was euthanized and immediately transported to the Diagnostic Center for Population and Animal Health at Michigan State University for testing. The deer tested negative for CWD.
The DNRs investigation of J & B Whitetails also resulted in the review of records at Big Buck Taxidermy, located adjacent to the enclosure. Investigators determined two free-ranging deer with intact heads were imported into Michigan illegally and delivered to Big Buck Taxidermy by customers. The deer were taken from known CWD-positive areas in Wyoming and South Dakota.


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## greense1

Luv2hunteup said:


> How can you ban what you can't define?


There's a big difference between a huge field of crops and an acre plot tucked back in a corridor. I agree there is no way to define it but to say baiting is part of the problem and food plots aren't is being dishonest. The same people who are critical of baiting will go out and plant an acre area of food plot for the sole purpose of attracting deer to that spot. Are people really going to try and say that that doesn't directly increase the chances of deer swapping fluids? I don't bait down here and I don't have food plots either so I really don't care either way but the words and actions seem contradictory. Not saying this is you either but the short and sweet post made it easy to quote.


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## FREEPOP

It could've came from the St. Joe to Kalamazoo and then the Grand but that is all water under the bridge now and is probably the least important aspect of this recent event.

As Munster said, it's here, it's been here a while so other deer are infected and/or carriers and that is where the attention needs to be focused.

Being a doe, I am curious if it had offspring last year and if it was infected then?


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## FREEPOP

If it came here by trailer, should we load it back up and haul it out?


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## wintrrun

greense1 said:


> Are people really going to try and say that doesn't directly increase the chances of deer swapping fluids?


Yes.
It's been going on since day 1 of the foodplots/baitpile debate.


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## Munsterlndr

farmlegend said:


> River corridor transmission lines makes sense to me, but Meridian Township is a good 50+ miles away, _as the crow flies_, from the closest part of the St Joseph watershed, and that's WAY upstream St. Joe, as in Hillsdale or Branch counties. By river/creak/drain flowage distance, it's got to be much further yet from the St. Joseph watershed. Looking at the map, it does not appear likely to me that this particular animal was a result of deer travel up the Kankakee - St. Joseph route.


Was not suggesting that this particular animal traveled that distance. Does don't tend to migrate very far from their natal range, although up to 20% disperse depending on the type of area. My suggestion was that those river corridors present a plausible route for the spread of the disease, not that an individual deer would travel that far. There is minimal testing done in Indiana along the Kankakee corridor and virtually no testing done in the key southern Michigan counties along that route, so we really would have no way of knowing whether that is a transmission route until a significant amount of testing showed a presence in the population along those river systems.


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## QDMAMAN

Munsterlndr said:


> Was not suggesting that this particular animal traveled that distance. Does don't tend to migrate very far from their natal range, although up to 20% disperse depending on the type of area. My suggestion was that those river corridors present a plausible route for the spread of the disease, not that an individual deer would travel that far. There is minimal testing done in Indiana along the Kankakee corridor and virtually no testing done in the key southern Michigan counties along that route, so we really would have no way of knowing whether that is a transmission route until a significant amount of testing showed a presence in the population along those river systems.


 
Agree. It's important to understand that it wouldn't be an "individual" deer traveling that far but a result of generations of animals coming in contact with each other, over time, along that route.
I received information that DNA testing indicated that the infected deer was a direct descendent of the local population there, which makes sense because of the female whitetail's tendencies to remain where they were born as you indicated.


----------



## Walt Donaldson

Jager Pro said:


> Neither are food plots and agriculture fields, all 3 are forms of supplemental feeding that can increase a habitats carrying capacity. However baiting is the only one that DNR can reasonably control.


I agree 100%. I think of those who feed deer throughout the year and you have 10-15 deer (maybe more) eating off the same 50 sqft area....the potential for direct fluid exchange is at a much higher rate than say a quarter acre food plot.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Luv2hunteup said:


> Is it true there are at least 3 deer farms in the area of the CWD outbreak?


There are deer farms all over the state, depends on what you mean by "in the area". Probably the closest captive cervids to the location of the index case are the ones behind a fence on the MSU campus. I have seen captive elk at MSU, very close to where this deer was found.

This map is way out of date, from 2004 and almost half of these captive facilities have closed since then but it still gives you an idea of how many there are in Michigan.


----------



## soggybtmboys

wintrrun said:


> I want to see the studies that back up soggy britches statement about turning of soils in foodplots take those harmful prions and bury them from contact with deer?
> 
> Probably the most idiotic, uneducated statement I have heard in regards to foolplotting being ok in areas known to have deer carrying the cwd virus. :lol:
> 
> The dnr is ok with wildlife plantings pre cwd in the wild herd. Question will be wether they think it will be wise post cwd in wild herd?



Good to see that running a foul mouth with inflammatory and insulting posts are moderated with prejudice still. Here ya go, research from a University that has been dealing with this issue for some time. 

http://www.news.wisc.edu/13583

It's suggested that moving prions down in the soil column may be a move to keep them away from being ingested at the surface by animals. It also suggests that lining could destroy/kill these prions as well. 

So you can take your comment and stuff it up your backside. 

Furthermore, the difference in size, scope, and concentration potential in a 100 sq ft bait site and 43,560 sq ft foodplot is not even debatable. I spoke in earnest with an individual at length last evening, do not be surprised if the 3 county baiting ban is extended to all of zone 3 and potentially the entire lower peninsula. Baiting is a potential vector that is easily mitigated with a pen stroke and it is readily defined.


----------



## plugger

Luv2hunteup said:


> Is it true there are at least 3 deer farms in the area of the CWD outbreak?


Any taxidermists in the area?


----------



## Munsterlndr

soggybtmboys said:


> It's suggested that moving prions down in the soil column may be a move to keep them away from being ingested at the surface by animals. It also suggests that lining could destroy/kill these prions as well.
> 
> So you can take your comment and stuff it up your backside.
> 
> Furthermore, the difference in size, scope, and concentration potential in a 100 sq ft bait site and 43,560 sq ft foodplot is not even debatable.


You are missing the point completely. The debate, (which is a stupid one) about whether bait piles or food plots present a greater danger in terms of disease transmission, is largely moot. 

The fact is that both baiting and food plotting increases the potential for aggregation and concentrated soil contamination. As a a result, regardless of whether or not it's a legal practice, sportsmen who actually give a damn about the resource and the future of deer hunting in Michigan, will curtail both practices in areas where disease is a known factor. It's just that simple. You can argue about which poses a greater threat till the cows come home and it's not going to change the fact that both do. 

The state is not going to ban food plotting because it's virtually impossible to craft language that would do so. Using that fact as some sort of justification to claim that food plots present no increased risk of transmission is just plain silly. Just because something is legal does not mean it's a good idea or poses no threat. 

If individuals who claim to be stewards of the resource really want to help limit the spread of this outbreak, they will stop planting food plots in the CWD zone. The best thing they could do is engage in habitat enhancement that creates natural forage, which does not concentrate deer in the same way that planted crops do.


----------



## johnhunter

Munsterlndr said:


> As a a result, regardless of whether or not it's a legal practice, sportsmen who actually give a damn about the resource and the future of deer hunting in Michigan, will curtail both practices in areas where disease is a known factor. It's just that simple.


Certainly you're not suggesting that landowners cease growing food plots, even when refraining from growing them would put them in violation of federal law, right?

A fair number of landowners are bound by CRP contracts with the USDA which _require_ growing and maintaining wildlife food plots. Most CRP contracts do not contain this requirement, but some landowners are stuck with these handcuffs.

I sure don't need the federal leviathan to reign down its vengeance upon me.


----------



## plugger

The only thing sadder than finding cwd is hearing people justify their own risky behavior while condemning others. To isolate and control this outbreak we need sportsmen, the dnr, land owners, and the ag community to work together. Habitat and feed need to be as much an emphasis as shooting. There are deer deterrents available that are pretty effective in ag crops, explode is one that comes to mind. Subsidize wide spread aerial application. Eliminate cover and food wherever possible on non crop acres, no feed and easily hunted. Allow access to hunters or sharp shooters. By eliminating food sources and cover deer numbers will drop dramatically. Lake county and eastern Mason saw a dramatic drop in deer numbers and it was because state land and easy access to most private land allowed the hunters to get to the deer and harvest them. Much of the forest and non crop land was mature forest without much understory. 
In the CWD area much could be done. but Unfortunately much will be said and little done.


----------



## ESOX

Munsterlndr said:


> Professional wildlife biologists understand that aggregation increases the potential for the spread of disease. Obviously, you don't.
> 
> These pics are from a current thread in the habitat section, one discussing how successful a sugar beet food plot has been in attracting deer.
> 
> if you want to keep fooling yourself into thinking that such plots don't increase the aggregation of deer, feel free.


People will continue to refuse to believe that which would be inconvenient to believe and act upon.


----------



## FullQuiver

ESOX said:


> People will continue to refuse to believe that which would be inconvenient to believe and act upon.


True enough.......


----------



## swampbuck

soggybtmboys said:


> That's your unqualified opinion and one that is not shared with the professional wildlife management community. There is no difference in feeding behavior of whitetails between a fallow field full of forbes and natural browse as opposed to planted cereal grains...whether it is ag or a food plot. I can take a mower and run over a weed field to cut off the acting nurse crops and release the growing clovers and such under.



Then why do you plant them ?


----------



## johnhunter

plugger said:


> The only thing sadder than finding cwd is hearing people justify their own risky behavior while condemning others.


In the interest of one-upmanship, allow me to add this:

This was a post about announcing the discovery of CWD in a wild deer in Michigan. Rather than the obvious responses focused on what-where-why of the appearance of this disease, the reading of the official DNR announcement, or even speculation of where we go from here, certain predictable individuals here IMMEDIATELY plunged into their jealousy-inspired anti-landowner anti-foodplotting Defcom 1 to rage about wildlife food plots. 

Tell me there's not some sort of personality disorder pathology here.


----------



## Ranger Ray

We all knew it was just a matter of time. Bummer.


----------



## Alan Michaels

QDMAMAN said:


> Should we add your name to the "Conspiracy Theory" list along with Alan Michaels and Robert Holmes?
> Maybe you guys can bribe the janitor at the diagnostic lab on MSU's campus and intercept all of the Hefty bags full of contaminated waste headed to the compost dump in Okemos. :idea:


Bite me QDMAMAN.
I just pointed out the coincidence of the nearness of this states main testing laboratories to the discovery site.

I would say its more viable argument then that deer walked 500 miles to get sick and die within shouting distance of MSU.

Don't they teach for testing for CWD?
Are they involved in studying CWD in live deer?
And could it have got out somehow or a deer escaped? 

Lets wait and see what the national laboratory says.
Michigan was wrong about the deer that was found in or near the UP weren't they?


----------



## Groundsize

Munsterlndr said:


> Professional wildlife biologists understand that aggregation increases the potential for the spread of disease. Obviously, you don't.
> 
> These pics are from a current thread in the habitat section, one discussing how successful a sugar beet food plot has been in attracting deer.
> 
> if you want to keep fooling yourself into thinking that such plots don't increase the aggregation of deer, feel free.


No different than any agg field I see in the winter time in southern Michigan where a healthy heard lives. Even without these so called close feedings. These social groups and families still exchange bodily fluids by grooming and socializing with each other even if there were no agg fields.


----------



## Alan Michaels

Groundsize said:


> No different than any agg field I see in the winter time in southern Michigan where a healthy heard lives. Even without these so called close feedings. These social groups and families still exchange bodily fluids by grooming and socializing with each other even if there were no agg fields.


Its a question of what is necessary.
They cant stop farming.

Like somebody already pointed out, this will truly show just who the real stewards of the natural world are, and just who is only in it for their personal gain.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Groundsize said:


> No different than any agg field I see in the winter time in southern Michigan where a healthy heard lives. Even without these so called close feedings. These social groups and families still exchange bodily fluids by grooming and socializing with each other even if there were no agg fields.


I don't disagree with you in terms of food plots being no different then ag fields, in terms of creating aggregation. Just because they both cause aggregation is not a valid excuse for participating in a voluntary practice that amplifies the potential spread. Using that logic, you could try and justify the continued use of bait, as well. Both baiting and food plots are not required practices and as such both should be precluded, as part of mitigation efforts. 

The point with unnatural aggregation is that it brings non-family member deer together, increasing the spread. Certainly family group deer are exposed to other deer within the group and there is nothing we can do about that but decreasing the amount of intra-group contact that occurs can help limit the spread.


----------



## plugger

farmlegend said:


> In the interest of one-upmanship, allow me to add this:
> 
> This was a post about announcing the discovery of CWD in a wild deer in Michigan. Rather than the obvious responses focused on what-where-why of the appearance of this disease, the reading of the official DNR announcement, or even speculation of where we go from here, certain predictable individuals here IMMEDIATELY plunged into their jealousy-inspired anti-landowner anti-foodplotting Defcom 1 to rage about wildlife food plots.
> 
> Tell me there's not some sort of personality disorder pathology here.


 No landowner inspired jealousy from me as I are one. We have been building up for this in many ways and it's here. It really doesn't matter how it got here but what matters is where do we go from here. If the various groups would work together rater than justifying their pet projects or methods we could get somewhere. If were honest we will admit that bait is a concern, food plots are a concern, ag crops are a concern, habitat is a concern, age structure is a concern, dispersal is a concern, density is a concern, hunter access is a concern, landowner attitude is a concern. All of these things need to be addressed to make headway.


----------



## Munsterlndr

plugger said:


> No landowner inspired jealousy from me as I are one. We have been building up for this in many ways and it's here. It really doesn't matter how it got here but what matters is where do we go from here. If the various groups would work together rater than justifying their pet projects or methods we could get somewhere. If were honest we will admit that bait is a concern, food plots are a concern, ag crops are a concern, habitat is a concern, age structure is a concern, dispersal is a concern, density is a concern, hunter access is a concern, landowner attitude is a concern. All of these things need to be addressed to make headway.


Spot on!


----------



## swampbuck

Alan Michaels said:


> Its a question of what is necessary.
> They cant stop farming.
> 
> Like somebody already pointed out, this will truly show just who the real stewards of the natural world are, and just who is only in it for their personal gain.



I think we are already starting too.


----------



## billmitch

Time to put up or shut up. Plots, aprs, baiting, and ANYTHING that could concentrate deer, or lead to a higher risk of disease spread should be finished until we have a better understanding of just how large our problem is. I plant food plots but unlike some, im not gonna bull **** aout it. I do it to attract deer. The more the better. Well its time to change our way of thinking.


----------



## old graybeard

I think everyone one posting here should take time out to view the video posted earlier in this thread. I don't believe they have suddenly found something that wasn't here already and I don't believe the sky is falling.


----------



## billmitch

old graybeard said:


> I think everyone one posting here should take time out to view the video posted earlier in this thread. I don't believe they have suddenly found something that wasn't here already and I don't believe the sky is falling.


I agree with that GB, but i dont think it should stop us from trying our best to try and contain it.


----------



## ESOX

farmlegend said:


> In the interest of one-upmanship, allow me to add this:
> 
> This was a post about announcing the discovery of CWD in a wild deer in Michigan. Rather than the obvious responses focused on what-where-why of the appearance of this disease, the reading of the official DNR announcement, or even speculation of where we go from here, certain predictable individuals here IMMEDIATELY plunged into their jealousy-inspired anti-landowner anti-foodplotting Defcom 1 to rage about wildlife food plots.
> 
> Tell me there's not some sort of personality disorder pathology here.


Just because people object to the wily-nilly use of chemicals and fertilizers, and the unnatural concentration of animals as practiced by food plotters, does not mean they aren't landowners, much less jealous of others. It means that they exercise a different type of enjoyment and understanding of the entire ecosystem. That is an enjoyment not found in shooting densely populated farmed deer off the back 40.


----------



## Munsterlndr

old graybeard said:


> I think everyone one posting here should take time out to view the video posted earlier in this thread. I don't believe they have suddenly found something that wasn't here already and I don't believe the sky is falling.


Anyone watching that video should also be aware that it's a very slickly produced defense of deer farming that provides a somewhat skewed view of the reality of CWD. Not attacking deer farming but a fair and balanced presentation, it ain't.


----------



## RoadDog

It is time to stop attacking and vilifying each other, this all to often tactic is widespread in present day society and all too often rears it's ugly head on this board. Maybe, just maybe it might be worse than cwd in the deer herd.


----------



## kdogger

While the DNR can't stop food plots, they could ban hunting over food sources like they do for ducks. Just saying.....


----------



## Walt Donaldson

Anyone else find it strange that neither Dantonio nor Izzo have commented on this yet?! I'm starting to think there's a cover up going on over at MSU.


----------



## sniper

Alan Michaels said:


> Its a question of what is necessary.
> They cant stop farming.
> 
> Like somebody already pointed out, this will truly show just who the real stewards of the natural world are, and just who is only in it for their personal gain.


Everyone just chill out!

I will keep status quo on my property until if and when the DNR comes up with guidelines that I must follow in my area. Until then, it's all systems go. I'm not taking suggestions from some keyboard cowboys who all of sudden think their deer biologists. Yes it is a slight concern for me, but I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

On that note, I'm going bow shopping next week.


----------



## wintrrun

soggybtmboys said:


> Good to see that running a foul mouth with inflammatory and insulting posts are moderated with prejudice still. Here ya go, research from a University that has been dealing with this issue for some time.
> 
> http://www.news.wisc.edu/13583
> 
> It's suggested that moving prions down in the soil column may be a move to keep them away from being ingested at the surface by animals. It also suggests that lining could destroy/kill these prions as well.
> 
> So you can take your comment and stuff it up your backside.
> 
> Furthermore, the difference in size, scope, and concentration potential in a 100 sq ft bait site and 43,560 sq ft foodplot is not even debatable. I spoke in earnest with an individual at length last evening, do not be surprised if the 3 county baiting ban is extended to all of zone 3 and potentially the entire lower peninsula. Baiting is a potential vector that is easily mitigated with a pen stroke and it is readily defined.


Its suggested....It might?...It may?.... It could?
Silly how you hang your hat on such theoretical crap.
If that's the best you can pull out of your backside then we will leave it at that.


----------



## old graybeard

Munsterlndr said:


> Eradication was never a possibility in Wisconsin, due to the fact that it had been unidentified in the population for decades. If it's been in Michigan for a long time and simply has not been identified, then eradication will not happen. On the other hand, some states have been successful in eradicating or at least limiting the spread of the disease. There are reasonable steps that we can take that are worth doing. Letting the disease run it's course is not a good idea.
> 
> A good example of how that video skews the facts was when Kroll mentioned that Wisconsin had a 2% prevalence rate, implying that it was all a mountain out of a mole hill. Sure, there is a 2% rate if you measure the prevalence rate among all of the deer in Wisconsin but that's because it's limited to a couple of distinct areas. In those areas, the prevalence rate is a heck of lot higher. In the western part of the core CWD area, in 2014, adult bucks had close to a 40% prevalence rate and does almost 20%. If I hunt in one of those areas, Kroll's assurance that CWD is no big deal would seem to be pretty disingenuous.


I see your point


----------



## greense1

sniper said:


> Everyone just chill out!
> 
> I will keep status quo on my property until if and when the DNR comes up with guidelines that I must follow in my area. Until then, it's all systems go. I'm not taking suggestions from some keyboard cowboys who all of sudden think their deer biologists. Yes it is a slight concern for me, but I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill here.
> 
> On that note, I'm going bow shopping next week.


the DNR has proven time and time again that they aren't capable of doing anything but reactionary measures. And it's always been about money not what's best.


----------



## swampbuck

Walt Donaldson said:


> Anyone else find it strange that neither Dantonio nor Izzo have commented on this yet?! I'm starting to think there's a cover up going on over at MSU.



I am wondering where our resident scientist, Bio is on this ?


----------



## woodie slayer

jjlrrw said:


> The plan in 2002 was...
> 
> "Further, the NRC implemented a 50-mile buffer
> zone around the state. If CWD is discovered within
> 50 miles of any state border, all baiting and feeding
> activities in the adjacent peninsula will be
> immediately banned."
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CWD_39369_7.pdf
> 
> that's the way i understood it would happen..no baiting ..


----------



## CHASINEYES

greense1 said:


> the DNR has proven time and time again that they aren't capable of doing anything but reactionary measures. And it's always been about money not what's best.


Hopefully they will prove themselves by selling antlerless permits at cost in the containment zone.


----------



## beer and nuts

> I'll bet Dan kills more does than you this year.


 I'm sure he will. But his land will produce more twins and triplets...so I'd bet actually he is in the black when it comes to deer produced to deer killed!

His land attracts a high percentage of deer compare to surround land...so him killing 1-3 more does is not that big a deal.

Plus he gets public tax subsidizes for his land for planting "plots"....some people are takers, some are givers!


----------



## Munsterlndr

woodie slayer said:


> jjlrrw said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plan in 2002 was...
> 
> "Further, the NRC implemented a 50-mile buffer
> zone around the state. If CWD is discovered within
> 50 miles of any state border, all baiting and feeding
> activities in the adjacent peninsula will be
> immediately banned."
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CWD_39369_7.pdf
> 
> that's the way i understood it would happen..no baiting ..
> 
> 
> 
> That plan is obsolete, it was replaced with a revised plan in 2012.
> 
> https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...ngencyPlan_2012Update_FinalDraft_391020_7.pdf
Click to expand...


----------



## MERGANZER

Any validity to the statements earlier about when they find it (within 6 months of the deer season) I thought I had heard something like that before but then I am concerned for the fawns if they open antlerless harvest up. I also agree that if they are trying to reduce the numbers the tags need to be lower priced. How do you think the mandatory testing will work and how about transport if you live in another area of the state?

Ganzer


----------



## Alan Michaels

sniper said:


> Everyone just chill out!
> 
> I will keep status quo on my property until if and when the DNR comes up with guidelines that I must follow in my area. Until then, it's all systems go. I'm not taking suggestions from some keyboard cowboys who all of sudden think their deer biologists. Yes it is a slight concern for me, but I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill here.
> 
> On that note, I'm going bow shopping next week.


Well we know which column your name landed in.


----------



## Munsterlndr

MERGANZER said:


> How do you think the mandatory testing will work and how about transport if you live in another area of the state?
> 
> Ganzer


Likely to be similar to the special regulations put in place in Kent Co. after the 2008 CC was found. 

_"Under the special hunting regulations, only boned meat, capes and antlers of hunter-harvested deer may be removed from the CWD surveillance zone. 

Hunters harvesting wild, free-ranging deer in the surveillance zone shall not remove the carcass or parts of the carcass from the CWD surveillance zone, except for boned meat, antlers attached to a skull cap cleaned of all brain and muscle tissue, and hides. Finished taxidermist mounts also may be removed from the CWD surveillance zone.

The entire carcasses of all hunter-harvested deer from the CWD surveillance zone shall be presented at a DNR check deer check station within 72 hours of harvest. Additional check stations will be established in the surveillance zone to make it more convenient for hunters in the zone. Those locations will be announced prior to the early antlerless hunt on private land scheduled to take place Sept. 18-22 southern Michigan. 
At the check stations, DNR staff will remove the deer head and a portion of the neck. During regular deer hunting seasons this fall, hunters may retain the antlers after they have turned over the head at the check station. Hunters outside the surveillance zone in Kent County will be able to retain the carcass as well. Hunters inside the surveillance zone cannot remove the carcass from the zone."_


----------



## MERGANZER

Thank you for the information. I wonder if they will have disposal dumpsters set in places for those who process their own deer.

Ganzer


----------



## johnhunter

beer and nuts said:


> I'm sure he will. But his land will produce more twins and triplets...so I'd bet actually he is in the black when it comes to deer produced to deer killed!
> 
> His land attracts a high percentage of deer compare to surround land...so him killing 1-3 more does is not that big a deal.


I don't believe I've ever had a year where at least 8 does were not taken from my farm. Average is somewhere between 10 and 11.


----------



## woodie slayer

MERGANZER said:


> Any validity to the statements earlier about when they find it (within 6 months of the deer season) I thought I had heard something like that before but then I am concerned for the fawns if they open antlerless harvest up. I also agree that if they are trying to reduce the numbers the tags need to be lower priced. How do you think the mandatory testing will work and how about transport if you live in another area of the state?
> 
> Ganzer


 
i think in wisconsin there was no charge for permits they just made it mandatory to have them checked..saved the state money they would've had to give to goverment hunters


----------



## plugger

woodie slayer said:


> i think in wisconsin there was no charge for permits they just made it mandatory to have them checked..saved the state money they would've had to give to goverment hunters


 I know in Illinois when my daughter and Son-inlaw got there buck tags for the first time as residents they received 4 antlerless tags that hadn't requested or payed for.


----------



## Jager Pro

Munsterlndr said:


> Different situations.
> 
> By the time CWD was identified in Wisconsin, it had likely been there for several decades and the prevalence rate and geographic spread was such that eradication was never a realistic option.
> 
> New York and Minnesota have both been seemingly successful in eradicating the disease, where it was found in an isolated instance.
> 
> Other states, such as PA, West Virginia and Missouri have not been successful in stopping the spread from the index locations.
> 
> Time will tell whether we are successful or not, it all depends on how prevalent it is within the given area.


If it was there for decades and it posed only minimal negative effects then what is the big deal? As long as thousands of deer aren't dropping dead I do not see this disease as being a major deal. But maybe I don't understand the severity quite yet.


----------



## anonymous7242016

Alan Michaels said:


> Well we know which column your name landed in.



He isn't in the hot zone or in any of the 3 counties mentioned in the response plan so why should he change his plan?

Did you quit baiting because btb was found in the NELP?


----------



## anonymous7242016

Jager Pro said:


> If it was there for decades and it posed only minimal negative effects then what is the big deal? As long as thousands of deer aren't dropping dead I do not see this disease as being a major deal. But maybe I don't understand the severity quite yet.



Control it before the entire state is infected.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

ESOX said:


> The clubs, supplemental feeders, baiters, food plotters, unnecessarily and carelessly caused the deer population to far exceed the natural carrying capacity of the land, and caused deer to unnaturally concentrate feeding deer. These activities were not by farmers of anything but antlers. The denser populations created further concentrated around these unnatural and unnecessary food sources, provided ideal circumstances for disease transmission. Deer Farmers were the main problem. Not the 160 acre corn field, Not the 320 acre strawberry farm, it was the 1 acre food plot. The bait pile. The broadcast feeder area. Things that kept deer in unnaturally close contact for prolonged periods of time.



I could not agree more. It allowed the bTB in the cattle to spread to deer. The spread of bTB around the state is by farmers not by deer.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Luv2hunteup said:


> I could not agree more. It allowed the bTB in the cattle to spread to deer. The spread of bTB around the state is by farmers not by deer.


bTB from cattle likely spread to deer in the NELP in the 1940's & 1950's, long before modern farm testing procedures were in place. The bulk of the spread that has occurred since it was initially introduced to the deer herd, which has resulted in individual cattle & dairy farms becoming infected, is due to deer. 

There are a few cases where the intra-county movement of infected cattle has resulted in the disease being spread in the last 20 years but they are few and far between. The primary mechanism for the expansion of the number of farms contracting bTB is due to deer, not even debatable.


----------



## ESOX

fishx65 said:


> So, is the best/smartest solution to kill a bunch of deer (maybe most not infected) in the hot zone to try and slow the spread or should Michigan just learn to live with it like some Western states? Do any states with a long history of CWD allow bait piles today?????


Here's an idea, let's start by being responsible stewards of the land.
Yes we have to farm to survive, but we sure as hell don't need to deer farm. We should cease all unnecessary activities that keep deer populations unnaturally high and/or unnaturally concentrated.
No more food or "kill" plots.
No more bait.
No more supplemental feeding.
Let nature take it's course and get the deer population where it belongs without attempts to keep it high and/or concentrated.
Who knows, people might actually learn how to hunt deer again.


----------



## Waif

protectionisamust said:


> I understand the philosopy of trying to kill all deer in the target area to try and contain the issue but is there any proof that actually works?
> 
> Is that just simple thinking knee jerk reaction or will there be actually anything good that will come from the "kill em all" philosophy?
> 
> its an Honest question I have.
> 
> Would a quick study of all road kill within the core area be a better solution before the lock, load & shoot em all mentality. This time of year - a ton of deer are killed in vehicle accidents. Why dont the DNR dispatch emergency reponse testing groups to start combing the roads and testing in the area?
> 
> I realize time is ticking and a quick reaction is better than no reaction.
> 
> Louis


Road hits tested will be part of the response.
'Prohibiting the possession or salvage of deer killed by collision with a motor vehicle within the Core CWD Area. Also, residents are asked to call in the locations of road-killed deer within this area so DNR staff can pick up for testing. Research shows CWD-infected deer are more likely to be hit by vehicles because of their illness.'

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153--355592--,00.html


----------



## ESOX

And a great effect of ending deer farming would be that our amphibians, fish and reptiles will no longer be imperiled by the reckless use of herbicides, pesticides and fertilizers by deer farmers. Water quality will improve. Aquatic weed growth will get closer to natural levels.


----------



## protectionisamust

Waif said:


> Road hits tested will be part of the response.
> 'Prohibiting the possession or salvage of deer killed by collision with a motor vehicle within the Core CWD Area. Also, residents are asked to call in the locations of road-killed deer within this area so DNR staff can pick up for testing. Research shows CWD-infected deer are more likely to be hit by vehicles because of their illness.'
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153--355592--,00.html


 
Thx. I missed this article.


----------



## QDMAMAN

ESOX said:


> And a great effect of ending deer farming would be that our amphibians, fish and reptiles will no longer be imperiled by the reckless use of herbicides, pesticides and fertilizers by deer farmers. Water quality will improve. Aquatic weed growth will get closer to natural levels.


Pretty inflammatory language for a "super moderator".
Are the fish you're referring to ones raised and released? Those fish?


----------



## QDMAMAN

Duffy Munn said:


> All the big clubs in club country fed, it wasn't just Turtle Lake. Why are you singling them out?


A better question might be, when did sugar beets cause btb?


----------



## ESOX

QDMAMAN said:


> Pretty inflammatory language for a "super moderator".


Am I not entitled to an opinion?Do you think spreading chemicals and fertilizers all over the woodlands and lowlands is a good thing? It seems to me people are willing to bury their heads and ignore the logical conclusion when it goes against what they want...... like when they want antlers.......or easy "hunting".

Here is an older thread which shows a sliver of the ugly side of the deer farming problem.
Screw everything else, throw chemicals and seed around.
www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277279

It is the continuance of plotting and baiting that will assure we lose this battle in short order.


----------



## wintrrun

srconnell22 said:


> And you can thank the Turtle Lake Club's semi-loads of sugar beets for getting it started!


No ****!


----------



## wintrrun

I


ESOX said:


> Am I not entitled to an opinion?Do you think spreading chemicals and fertilizers all over the woodlands and lowlands is a good thing? It seems to me people are willing to bury their heads and ignore the logical conclusion when it goes against what they want...... like when they want antlers.......or easy "hunting".
> 
> Here is an older thread which shows a sliver of the ugly side of the deer farming problem.
> Screw everything else, throw chemicals and seed around.
> www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277279
> 
> It is the continuance of plotting and baiting that will assure we lose this battle in short order.



The holier than now " stewards of the resource" got thin skin these days.
Spreading manure in there unfounded, non-peer reviewed beliefs is the game plan.
Why are we all posting?
There is day light to go enhance and manipulate your habitat so that cwd will disappear!:lol:


----------



## wintrrun

QDMAMAN said:


> A better question might be, when did sugar beets cause btb?


Was it the beets or the unnatural , supplemental feed draw that congegrated deer that did it?


----------



## TVCJohn

Has anyone heard what neighborhood in Meridian Township the infected deer came from? 

Looking at Google Earth and considering the deer movement corridor theory, it looks like the Red Cedar River would fit into that category in an east - west direction. There is a large neighborhood on the north side of the river. "If" that was the neighborhood.....based on the location of the city to the west, the township and the river direction, I could see alot of deer travel back and forth towards the east of the township in that river corridor. That being said, it would seem to me at least, that would be a logical area for the next positive case to turn up.


----------



## anonymous7242016

Wow ........ Many of you are doing nothing but pointing blame at each other. 

I can't remember a single time that solved anything.


----------



## Steve

ESOX said:


> And a great effect of ending deer farming would be that our amphibians, fish and reptiles will no longer be imperiled by the reckless use of herbicides, pesticides and fertilizers by deer farmers. Water quality will improve. Aquatic weed growth will get closer to natural levels.


Maybe, but I think commercial farms are the greatest contributor towards this.


----------



## anonymous7242016

Steve said:


> Maybe, but I think commercial farms are the greatest contributor towards this.



Ya and that is the reason there are programs created to take land out of farming......yet some seem to find a reason to bitch about that too.


----------



## Bomba

ESOX said:


> Here's an idea, let's start by being responsible stewards of the land.
> Yes we have to farm to survive, but we sure as hell don't need to deer farm. We should cease all unnecessary activities that keep deer populations unnaturally high and/or unnaturally concentrated.
> No more food or "kill" plots.
> No more bait.
> No more supplemental feeding.
> Let nature take it's course and get the deer population where it belongs without attempts to keep it high and/or concentrated.
> Who knows, people might actually learn how to hunt deer again.



Nice theory but it won't happen that way.... WAY to much $$$$$ to be lost by bow companies, camo companies, tree stand companies, food plot companies, carrot farmers, beet farmers, and the State of Michigan with license sales....The higher the deer number the more $$$..


----------



## ESOX

Steve said:


> Maybe, but I think commercial farms are the greatest contributor towards this.



Probably, but commercial farming is necessary for our survival. Deer farming needlessly imperils the ecosystem, particularly in its most sensitive areas, as well as concentrating deer much more than commercial farming does.


----------



## wintrrun

bucksnbows said:


> Wow ........ Many of you are doing nothing but pointing blame at each other.
> 
> I can't remember a single time that solved anything.


Like when better hunting was proposed for Michigan deer hunters?
You want me to refresh you through the archives?


----------



## ridgewalker

Steve said:


> Maybe, but I think commercial farms are the greatest contributor towards this.


That is correct. Also chemical producing companies are regulated but it has been often documented that their discharge can be toxic. I would not personally locate my family downstream or down the main air currents from a chemical producing company. It may be impossible to avoid the presence of chemicals in our present environment but my choices will be made with the hope that I can at least limit exposure. Visiting in cancer wards have greatly impacted the choices that I make. 

As a doctor at U of M stated while my farmer father was dying from leukemia. "If those chemicals kill plants and animals, they can kill people."
He also stated that any product that used benzene, which is in gasoline, can be deadly. It used to be a practice that folks that worked on engines or other equipment that was greasy, would wash their hands and arms in gasoline because it cut and cleaned the mess away. Unfortunately the benzene remained. 

I know many folks that farm large amounts of land. They state that a profit cannot be made without the use of chemicals. I don't know about that as I left the farm and my income has not depended on that land. I do believe that the use of chemicals is playing with fire but that is only my opinion. On the hunting land that I presently manage, I do not allow the use of chemicals. I prefer a few ferns and weeds on any food plots to the use of chemicals.

The folks who hunt with me and myself will now be waiting to see if there are further recommendations by the DNR on a larger basis. As it is we may discuss not baiting or food plotting. I do not think that stopping either will prevent the spread of CWD but that is only my opinion. We will abide by the recommendations of the DNR whether we like them or not.


----------



## Steve

Personally I think doing away with baiting and food plotting will only slow the advance of CWD but not stop it. Deer are naturally social animals and hang out in either doe family groups or bachelor groups for most of the year.


----------



## Sportsman1933

ESOX said:


> Probably, but commercial farming is necessary for our survival. Deer farming needlessly imperils the ecosystem, particularly in its most sensitive areas, as well as concentrating deer much more than commercial farming does.


Wow, I think this is quite a reach. I'd agree that food plots etc within the hot zone should be eliminated but these blanket statements about guys who improve the habitat are rediculous. Most guys I know that do habitat work actually took former farm field where nothing (and I do mean nothing with the Roundup ready crops) grew but corn or beans and turned them into wildlife paradises. My small piece of property included. The frogs are roaring so loud outside right now I had to turn up the volume to hear the weatherman. The properties to each side of me are brown and crispy as they just no tilled in their crops. 

I don't have the stats but what percentage of herbicides are used by "plotters" compared to everyone else. I'd bet that 1,000x more is sprayed on peoples flower gardens across this state. We should get rid of all horses too, their food comes from somewhere and is not essential. Rediculous.


----------



## ESOX

Sportsman1933 said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have the stats but what percentage of herbicides are used by "plotters" compared to everyone else. I'd bet that 1,000x more is sprayed on peoples flower gardens across this state. We should get rid of all horses too, their food comes from somewhere and is not essential. Rediculous.


What's "rediculous" is that CWD is here but deer farmers can't give up on the idea of maintaining artificially high populations of deer, then further enticing these deer to concentrate in small food plots. Not hundreds of acres of agricultural field, but in little, secluded food and kill plots. They will assure the spread of CWD throughout the state.


----------



## wintrrun

bucksnbows said:


> Ya and that is the reason there are programs created to take land out of farming......yet some seem to find a reason to bitch about that too.


Really?
Is that buy farmland as a recreational hunting property and then turn and suck the government tit so you an buy cigars and top shelf bourbon/scotch and complain about deer hunting?
Been obvious from day one, most here on the crp, live well beyond there means and look for government cheese wherever they can get it.:lol:


----------



## Cabbie

ESOX said:


> What's "rediculous" is that CWD is here but deer farmers can't give up on the idea of maintaining artificially high populations of deer, then further enticing these deer to concentrate in small food plots. Not hundreds of acres of agricultural field, but in little, secluded food and kill plots.



Still reaching.....
Do you want to outlaw the licking branch too?


----------



## wintrrun

Steve said:


> Personally I think doing away with baiting and food plotting will only slow the advance of CWD but not stop it. Deer are naturally social animals and hang out in either doe family groups or bachelor groups for most of the year.


So slow is a bad thing?


----------



## ESOX

Cabbie said:


> Still reaching.....
> Do you want to outlaw the licking branch too?


Some people will take a natural activity to justify their desire to have more deer than is natural or healthy. If deer aren't at artificially high numbers, coaxed into small areas, then the odds of transmission are reduced. It is simple. But it means those who wish to do the right thing won't be sitting in the lounge chairs in the blind overlooking the 13 deer feeding on the small kill plot. Actually hunting really isn't bad........... some people need to try it.


----------



## Sportsman1933

ESOX said:


> What's "rediculous" is that CWD is here but deer farmers can't give up on the idea of maintaining artificially high populations of deer, then further enticing these deer to concentrate in small food plots. Not hundreds of acres of agricultural field, but in little, secluded food and kill plots. They will assure the spread of CWD throughout the state.


Come over for a walk someday.


----------



## wintrrun

Cabbie said:


> Still reaching.....
> Do you want to outlaw the licking branch too?


No but I would impose hanging by death to anyone who does not put 5 yards of concrete over the mineral station within the infected area and are caught red handed.
Why reach when you can string?
Seriously?


----------



## perchyanker

TheWanderingCock said:


> For all practical purposes, anterless permits have been "unlimited" in that part of the state for years. Tens of thousands of left over permits are available every year. Anyone that wants can get as many as they need. The problem is getting people to use them.


 I read up until this post which was about about 5 pages I think. This was my first thought. Is their any talk about reducing the cost of the doe tag in these areas? Or even free for that matter...... I'm gonna guess no


----------



## perchyanker

or is this just a reason to try and raise money for all the money they lost by raising prices last year?


----------



## plugger

ESOX said:


> And a great effect of ending deer farming would be that our amphibians, fish and reptiles will no longer be imperiled by the reckless use of herbicides, pesticides and fertilizers by deer farmers. Water quality will improve. Aquatic weed growth will get closer to natural levels.


 It's funny that I see more concern with the dangers of round up on the agricultural boards than this board that should be more conservation minded. People think game is organic but it's exposed to more chemicals than domestic animals. If I had cattle I would not consider pasturing on a field that was just sprayed. I don't know where they get them but I here people on here talking about using restricted use herbicides that are supposed to applied by a licensed applicator.


----------



## Cabbie

ESOX said:


> Some people will take a natural activity to justify their desire to have more deer than is natural or healthy. If deer aren't at artificially high numbers, coaxed into small areas, then the odds of transmission are reduced. It is simple. But it means those who wish to do the right thing won't be sitting in the lounge chairs in the blind overlooking the 13 deer feeding on the small kill plot. Actually hunting really isn't bad........... some people need to try it.



What is more deer than natural? Without any human influence like hunting?
I have hunted farm land my whole life so I never had to "food plot" or bait deer. I could agree if you were talking about baiting in a concentrated area like a pile. To me a food plot field is no different than beans, corn or winter wheat fields that regularly have 20+ deer in them where I hunt. No blind or lounge chair for me I'll be 30' up with a birds eye view.


----------



## wintrrun

plugger said:


> It's funny that I see more concern with the dangers of round up on the agricultural boards than this board that should be more conservation minded. People think game is organic but it's exposed to more chemicals than domestic animals. If I had cattle I would not consider pasturing on a field that was just sprayed. I don't know where they get them but I here people on here talking about using restricted use herbicides that are supposed to applied by a licensed applicator.


No doubt our usual deer forum elitist's will show up shortly to dismiss your accusations.
Even Bio left the comfort of the hunting forums to share his usual drivel in the sound off forum with a a similar matter.


----------



## srconnell22

Duffy Munn said:


> All the big clubs in club country fed, it wasn't just Turtle Lake. Why are you singling them out?



Uhh...cause that's where it was found first? 

And yes, I know they all fed by the semi-load.


----------



## hitechman

Keep it commin' guys.....................gonna use some of this stuff in my new book: *Silent Fall*.

Steve


----------



## Sustainable

Couple good key points I just read while catching up. I have read the entire thread. Ground zero is at the testing facility so that is good news. Also, licking branches are now illegal. Everyone must kill all branches at licking height! haha

On a more serious note, how much does a test cost to have done? I am in neighboring Eaton county and I wouldn't mind sawing off a few roadkill heads to help the effort or bring them the whole deer. I would even pay for the test if it isn't outrageous. 

There are so many dead deer day to day in Michigan laying on the side of the road, they could save cost by having us bag em and tag em and deliver them ourselves. Could people organize funds (kickstarter) to have a certain number of roadkill from their county tested? I would think if the test don't cost to much I wouldn't mind seeing roadkill across the state be tested. 

How much does a test cost? Minus the man power and gas to retrieve and deliver?


----------



## Munsterlndr

Cabbie said:


> Still reaching.....
> Do you want to outlaw the licking branch too?


Outlaw it? No.

Certainly would like to reduce the age structure of the male cohort of the herd, as they utilize licking branches at substantially higher rates then younger bucks and does, do. 

Reducing the buck age structure would be an effective means of mitigating the potential spread of the disease outside of a core area.


----------



## Sustainable

I see in Utah it was only $25 to have an animal tested when the hunter was responsible for delivering the deer. Do we have to call the DNR to collect roadkill in non red zone counties to pick them up our selves and have them tested? Or can I just scoop up roadkill and deliver it. I would donate at least 8 test at $25 a pop. I would even start an Eaton County kickstarter for testing as many as possible.


----------



## Cabbie

Munsterlndr said:


> Outlaw it? No.
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly would like to reduce the age structure of the male cohort of the herd, as they utilize licking branches at substantially higher rates then younger bucks and does, do.
> 
> 
> 
> Reducing the buck age structure would be an effective means of mitigating the potential spread of the disease outside of a core area.



I have ran trail cameras for quite a few years now and licking branches are what I target because I don't bait. I'm not going to say that mature bucks don't use them more but what did surprise me is the amount of does that use them. Deer are curious and they all check them out sooner or later.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Cabbie said:


> Like I said I'm not debating the fact that bucks use them more.
> Wasn't the infected deer a doe? Would it not be more likely that this doe would have more contact with other does than bucks?


Yes, the index deer was a doe and yes does tend to have more contact with family group members (does and male fawns), then with other deer. 

These types of diseases tend to have higher prevalence rates among related family members, which makes sense, if there is one infected deer in a family group then the other members of that family group will have high frequency of exposure due to grooming, feeding in the same area, etc. If none of the deer in the family group are infected, though, the relative social isolation that they experience tends to serve as something of an exposure buffer, which is one reason why does and fawns tend to have overall lower prevalence rates. 

Bucks, though, engage in greater frequencies of high risk behavior, that expose them to more non-family member deer, thus upping the potential of interaction with an infected animal. The make-up of bachelor groups frequently changes and bucks tend to have larger home ranges, that overlap with other non-family member deer, which creates more potential for exposure.


----------



## hillbillie

MossyHorns said:


> I grew up on a farm and watched my grandpa spray his apple orchards, vineyards, and blueberry fields without ever using a tractor with a cab. He did it that way his whole life and lived to be 89. He used a lot of chemicals that are banned today.


I know:
My dad mixed arsenic powder and water and doused our potato plants. 
I worked for a nursery for five summers during high school and a year after. We sprayed residential properties for bugs, pests and weeds. This was before the days of Chem lawn and Tru-Green. Sprayed with a 50 gal tank sprayer in the back of a pick-up.
Sprayed DDT,chlordane, lindane, diazion, formula 40,2-4-d and others.The boss always bought in bulk bags and gal bottles. Us workers would measure the powers into 1# paper lunch sacks. No masks ,no rubber gloves , no rubber boots. I still remenber the smell of them powers and how my face stung @ night.

My Grandpa smoked camel straights till he died of lung cancer @ age 83

Guess some individual people and wildlife are more susceptible than others .


----------



## ridgewalker

bioactive said:


> A doctor who is poorly educated or a moron.


He held several degrees beyond his medical degrees. One does not manage cancer wards in Ann Arbor by being a "moron".

If you choose to use chemicals in a legal manner on your own property, that is your business. However it is also my right to not use them and to believe that overall these chemicals are a time bomb in the environment.


----------



## stickbow shooter

hillbillie said:


> Funding from our license increase that's going to private people , clubs and associations to enhance their private properties.
> 
> Anyone else think these monies could have been better spend testing for cwd in the past , present and future?


I think they should of tested the deer on my FIL property in Manistee county. He had a doe that was sickly and lethargic and was nothing but skin and bones that was laying by his bird feeder . He called the DNR and reported it. He later found it dead by the smell as well as a younger one in his field. Well after calling two more times they told him to just bury it. Might of been ehd or cwd no one will know . I realize they can't test every deer they get a call on but you have to start somewhere.


----------



## beer and nuts

Enough said. And funny how I see food plots and qdm differently when it comes to this disease and the way it spreads and manifests. I mean this dude kept passing on young deer(bucks, qdm?), kept planting food plots, and year after year it got worse...mmmmm, interesting!



> ""Having hunted in Iowa County, WI for the last 20 years, we've witnessed the impact and I wouldn't wish CWD on my worst enemy. We've carefully practiced quality deer management on our 600 acres, including habitat improvement, providing new water sources and food plots and most of all, selectively harvesting. Given the genetics of our area, we should be observing a bumper crop of bucks. Over the past 6 years, what we've actually observed is an accelerating decline in the age structure / size of our bucks. Every buck we've taken in the last 4 years has tested positive. We are no longer seeing 4.5+ year olds on the hoof. Rather, we are finding beautiful and promising young bucks lying dead. During the first five years of CWD, we shot an occasional "positive" deer and there was no discrimination between buck and doe in that regard. It "feels" like infection rates went from 2% to 5% to 10% to 25% to 50% in successive years. Our farm was not at the epicenter of CWD (Mount Horeb, WI), but the area has now claimed the dubious distinction of highest prevalence in the state. Cannot tell you how much this hurts. All the work, the love for the land and the animals. I used to be so exited to be on the property, regardless of the weather. It was all so exhilarating and beautiful. When we go now, it is almost like walking across the landscape of a black & white photo. This disease hurts the psychy of the outdoorsman... perhaps as much as it does the animals themselves."""


----------



## bigbuck

Munsterlndr said:


> Uh-huh. Yet we harvest more 3.5 and older bucks then Ohio & Indiana combined and almost twice as many as Wisconsin. Iowa doesn't publish their harvest data but I suspect that we harvest many more 3.5 and older bucks then they do. 40,000+ Michigan hunters proved your idea to be a fallacy last year.


Got to tell you I have hunted in three other Midwestern states on several different pieces of ground over a number of years, I also hunt on private ground in Michigan. I see a far higher percentage of mature bucks in the other states. Maybe my experience is unique but I don't think so.


----------



## FullQuiver

I have read most all 25 pages of this debate so far... Mostly kind of nauseating finger pointing and childish barbs and banter.... There have been some great posts but far too much finger pointing and the same old rhetoric...

The real questions are now what will each of us do to be a part of the solution and not an extension of the problem...... The jeanie is out of the bottle, pandoras box has been opened, what will be our individual responses....

The stakeholders in the hot zone and the surrounding counties are in a bad spot, but hold the key to holding the line (maybe stopping) the spread of this disease... The reality is that in time it will likely spread beyond the already affected areas.. The rate and prevalence of the spread will be determined by the selfishness or lack thereof of the people in these surrounding areas... 

Knowing that killing as many deer as one can will help slow the spread of this disease and that certain deer are far more likely to be carriers who will be willing to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.... 

The finer points of this can be argued, but deer hunting in MI has changed and changed for the foreseeable future... Baiting, foodplots, mineral station and the like are all unnecessary manipulations that can and do congregate deer, are hunters willing to give up short term gains for the greater good of hunting here in MI... 

Will future hunters remember us as stewards or selfish short sighted narcissists..... What legacy will each of us have....


----------



## CHASINEYES

beer and nuts said:


> Enough said. And funny how I see food plots and qdm differently when it comes to this disease and the way it spreads and manifests. I mean this dude kept passing on young deer(bucks, qdm?), kept planting food plots, and year after year it got worse...mmmmm, interesting!


There isn't any help for that guy. The habitat is contaminated beyond remediation, if there is such a thing. Lol Good example of why every deer in this new hot zone should be eliminated, starting yesterday.


----------



## Midalake

bigbuck said:


> Got to tell you I have hunted in three other Midwestern states on several different pieces of ground over a number of years, I also hunt on private ground in Michigan. I see a far higher percentage of mature bucks in the other states. Maybe my experience is unique but I don't think so.




It has been 7 years since I put eyes or trail cam pic's of anything remotely sniffing 3.5 years. None of our bucks harvested have been past 2.5 in that time. 

But I am sure there "out there" after all how could 5 hunters 6 trail cams miss all those "big ones' in 7 years ....I know 640 acres is a small sample.........


----------



## Groundsize

Munsterlndr said:


> Uh-huh. Yet we harvest more 3.5 and older bucks then Ohio & Indiana combined and almost twice as many as Wisconsin. Iowa doesn't publish their harvest data but I suspect that we harvest many more 3.5 and older bucks then they do. 40,000+ Michigan hunters proved your idea to be a fallacy last year.


Its no surprise since Michigan has 2-3 times the hunters that each state such as Ohio and Indiana have, more hunters, more deer will give a larger number is 3.5 year old kills each year. Common sense. Wisconsin you cant go on because there isn't the herd size anymore that compares to Michigans herd.


----------



## fishx65

MossyHorns said:


> hillbillie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I grew up on a farm and watched my grandpa spray his apple orchards, vineyards, and blueberry fields without ever using a tractor with a cab. He did it that way his whole life and lived to be 89. He used a lot of chemicals that are banned today.
> 
> 
> 
> In my career, I've talked to many healthy senior clients in their late 80's and early 90's that smoked cigarettes their whole lives. Just sayin!
Click to expand...


----------



## MossyHorns

ridgewalker said:


> He held several degrees beyond his medical degrees. One does not manage cancer wards in Ann Arbor by being a "moron".
> 
> If you choose to use chemicals in a legal manner on your own property, that is your business. However it is also my right to not use them and to believe that overall these chemicals are a time bomb in the environment.


I have a relative who works at a MSU Extension office and they said MSU does not promote Organic Farming. They won't even hand out literature on it. I grew up on a farm using pesticides and herbicides and don't see a problem with them as long as they are used as directed.


----------



## plugger

Does anyone know if or when the established CWD plan will be implemented? What does it take to implement the plan?


----------



## Frozenfish

MossyHorns said:


> I have a relative who works at a MSU Extension office and they said MSU does not promote Organic Farming. They won't even hand out literature on it. I grew up on a farm using pesticides and herbicides and don't see a problem with them as long as they are used as directed.


But they have a website: http://www.msuorganicfarm.com/


----------



## grapestomper

So, where this deer was found is it anywhere near wolf and tree hugger central??
Should be interesting to see how this plays out.


----------



## sniper

bigbuck said:


> Got to tell you I have hunted in three other Midwestern states on several different pieces of ground over a number of years, I also hunt on private ground in Michigan. I see a far higher percentage of mature bucks in the other states. Maybe my experience is unique but I don't think so.


Boots on the ground takes a backseat to all the keyboard cowboys on these type of topics. Charts and percentages are king. They take data from small percentages of hunters and or check stations and times the data by thousands and then run with it. The world is way to diverse for these type theories to work consistently.


----------



## FREEPOP

grapestomper said:


> So, where this deer was found is it anywhere near wolf and tree hugger central??
> Should be interesting to see how this plays out.


Would've been better if it was found in Ann Arbor.


----------



## swampbuck

plugger said:


> Does anyone know if or when the established CWD plan will be implemented? What does it take to implement the plan?



I believe all it takes is to do it, possibly the NRC to issue a WCO.

Based on recent actions I think the DNR brass has been buying into the qdm movement, and it will be difficult to put that cat back in the bag.

Because the CWD plan is the opposite of the qdm methodology, I have a bad feeling that full implementation will be slow or watered down....and doomed to failure.

Kinda like the post about the guy in Wisconsin in an earlier post.


----------



## Alan Michaels

bigbuck said:


> Got to tell you I have hunted in three other Midwestern states on several different pieces of ground over a number of years, I also hunt on private ground in Michigan. I see a far higher percentage of mature bucks in the other states. Maybe my experience is unique but I don't think so.


After seeing lots of pictures of big bucks taken right here in Michigan every year I'm leaning toward your experience is unique. Location, location, location comes to mind. 



sniper said:


> Boots on the ground takes a backseat to all the keyboard cowboys on these type of topics. Charts and percentages are king. They take data from small percentages of hunters and or check stations and times the data by thousands and then run with it. The world is way to diverse for these type theories to work consistently.


Cant see the forest for the trees.


----------



## stickbow shooter

Midalake said:


> It has been 7 years since I put eyes or trail cam pic's of anything remotely sniffing 3.5 years. None of our bucks harvested have been past 2.5 in that time.
> 
> But I am sure there "out there" after all how could 5 hunters 6 trail cams miss all those "big ones' in 7 years ....I know 640 acres is a small sample.........


If you wouldn't have killed the 2.5 year olds , they would might have become 3.5 year olds. Since there is so much land in the Yoop, why don't you hunt several locations ? Our camp averages at least two 4.5 year old bucks a year out of 6 guys. We hunt several different counties in the west end. If the sign isn't there go somewhere else.


----------



## johnhunter

Joe Archer said:


> There is likely already disease progression (prevalence) beyond any chance of removing it from the population.
> Follow the Red Cedar to the east and every every tributary to the South, and you will probably conclude that the entire SE corner of the state will soon be positive for CWD.
> <----<<<


At this point, Joe, that is presumptuous.

From the third-hand information that I have, there is a highly suspect dumping location very nearby where this deer was found that is the site of the disposal of a large number of deer carcasses. Allegedly being looked into.


----------



## field-n-feathers

farmlegend said:


> At this point, Joe, that is presumptuous.
> 
> From the third-hand information that I have, there is a highly suspect dumping location very nearby where this deer was found that is the site of the disposal of a large number of deer carcasses. Allegedly being looked into.


Dumping location owned by whom? Roadkill? Post experimental?

I think it's pretty safe to say this case is not related to watershed introduction. The chances, at least on the surface, appear to be less than winning the lottery two weeks in a row.


----------



## sniper

Alan Michaels said:


> After seeing lots of pictures of big bucks taken right here in Michigan every year I'm leaning toward your experience is unique. Location, location, location comes to mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Cant see the forest for the trees.


I can see the forrest and the trees just fine. ...When I'm actually walking around in the forrest!..Reality is a fine concept.


----------



## Joe Archer

farmlegend said:


> At this point, Joe, that is presumptuous.
> 
> From the third-hand information that I have, there is a highly suspect dumping location very nearby where this deer was found that is the site of the disposal of a large number of deer carcasses. Allegedly being looked into.


Presumptuous, or realistic estimation? 
*This deer probably carried the disease for close to 2 years*!



CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE: IMPLICATIONS AND CHALLENGES FOR WILDLIFE MANAGERS said:


> http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.overview
> Experimentally, *minimum incubation (time from exposure to onset of clinical disease) was about 15 months and mean time from oral infection to death was about 23 months (range 20->25 months) *in mule deer; the range of incubation observed in orally infected elk was approximately 12-34 months. The maximum disease course is not known, but can exceed 25 months in experimentally-infected deer and 34 months in elk. Duration is less certain in naturally-occurring cases.


<----<<<


----------



## bioactive

farmlegend said:


> At this point, Joe, that is presumptuous.
> 
> 
> 
> From the third-hand information that I have, there is a highly suspect dumping location very nearby where this deer was found that is the site of the disposal of a large number of deer carcasses. Allegedly being looked into.



I heard the same from a solid source. Investigation underway. As I have said many times, the obvious most likely source is a vehicle on a highway, not slow migration along a river system. 

It is too easy to load a sick deer in a trailer or toss a contaminated deer out. 

It has always seemed obvious to me that the most likely path to the first wild case would be I69, I75, I94 or some other highway. 

Almost infinitely more likely than natural migration.


----------



## MERGANZER

The real problem I want to hear about is what can be done with the land that is infected with the prions? You can kill every deer in the infected area but when more move in they have the chance to get infected as well. Can anything be done about this issue?

Ganzer


----------



## bioactive

Joe Archer said:


> Presumptuous, or realistic estimation?
> 
> 
> <----<<<



Very unrealistic since there has been Lots of Attention on the river system in IL. 

You are focused on a specific fear mongering theory constructed as part of an anti APR campaign rather than the far more likely possibility that a carcass was dumped.


----------



## Munsterlndr

bioactive said:


> I heard the same from a solid source. Investigation underway. As I have said many times, the obvious most likely source is a vehicle on a highway, not slow migration along a river system.
> 
> It is too easy to load a sick deer in a trailer or toss a contaminated deer out.
> 
> It has always seemed obvious to me that the most likely path to the first wild case would be I69, I75, I94 or some other highway.
> 
> Almost infinitely more likely than natural migration.


Certainly it may be more likely for an index case located hundreds of miles from any other known positives, as this one was.

But the source is largely moot at this point. 

The index case was exhibiting clinical symptoms, which would indicate that the transmission occurred a minimum of 16 months ago, possibly up to 2+ years. During that time period she has been shedding prions in an area where there are very high deer densities. According to the DNR's estimate, by the time a deer exhibiting clinical symptoms is observed, local prevalence is likely >1% and this in an area where hunting is not really a viable tool for immediate herd reduction. 

While finding the original source of contamination may be a somewhat interesting academic exercise and while some may take some solace if the contamination was the result of illegal activity and the culprits are brought to justice, it's largely water under the bridge. 

The focus now needs to be on the future and how we are going to deal with this unfortunate situation.


----------



## KalamazooKid

bioactive said:


> I heard the same from a solid source. Investigation underway. As I have said many times, the obvious most likely source is a vehicle on a highway, not slow migration along a river system.
> 
> It is too easy to load a sick deer in a trailer or toss a contaminated deer out.
> 
> It has always seemed obvious to me that the most likely path to the first wild case would be I69, I75, I94 or some other highway.
> 
> Almost infinitely more likely than natural migration.


Seems encouraging .... opposed to thousands of infected deer running all over Southern Michigan.


----------



## soggybtmboys

MERGANZER said:


> The real problem I want to hear about is what can be done with the land that is infected with the prions? You can kill every deer in the infected area but when more move in they have the chance to get infected as well. Can anything be done about this issue?
> 
> Ganzer


There seems to be a consensus in the wildlife biological community that there is a threshold that needs to be crossed in order for prions deposited in the soil to actually become a contagion. This is why captive cervid facilities and bait sites are a primary condemnation when it comes to this particular infectious disease. Highly contaminated sites are known contagion vectors for CWD infection in deer.


----------



## Alan Michaels

How does MSU dispose of diagnostic waste.


----------



## soggybtmboys

Alan Michaels said:


> How does MSU dispose of diagnostic waste.


I would ponder in the direction of a high fence deer farm. They get a sick deer, their entire operation and income and investment is now in peril. If they report and it's positive, they are all done and they loose everything. Get a sick deer, keep their mouth shut, shoot and dump it elsewhere....they stay in operation.


----------



## swampbuck

soggybtmboys said:


> There seems to be a consensus in the wildlife biological community that there is a threshold that needs to be crossed in order for prions deposited in the soil to actually become a contagion. This is why captive cervid facilities and bait sites are a primary condemnation when it comes to this particular infectious disease. Highly contaminated sites are known contagion vectors for CWD infection in deer.



How about deer trails and wintering areas, long established mineral sites, small kill plots, apple trees, game cam attractants ?

While it is at this point one deer, an index case. We have no idea how many are out there without a significant amount of killing and testing. I hope it's the only one, but nobody knows. And it may never be known conclusively .

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst...fits best in this case


----------



## FREEPOP

swampbuck said:


> Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst...fits best in this case


Amen


----------



## Alan Michaels

Have you ever watched the workings at a landfill?
Truck come in and drives to the days dumping site and unloads, the heavy equiptment (usually a large rubber tired or tracked dozer looking machine) pushes the pile of waste into the area and levels it out, it is then capped over by a layer of clay of an X amount of thickness.
I have watched this process, all that trash gets ripped apart, even the heavy plastic construction type trash bags.
And if you look back at the previous dumping sites you can see small pieces of trash that didn't get covered.
The end process though does usually gets capped pretty good with several feet of clay then topsoil (its usually fine until somebody comes along and decides to turn Mt. Trashmore into a ski hill and disturbs the cap by drilling for chair lift poles and disturbs the contamination).


----------



## soggybtmboys

swampbuck said:


> How about deer trails and wintering areas ?
> 
> While it is at this point one deer, an index case. We have no idea how many are out there without a significant amount of killing and testing. I hope it's the only one, but nobody knows. And it may never be known conclusively .
> 
> Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst...fits best in this case


Deer trails aren't a major concern because they are pass thru portals, wintering areas are a concern if supplemental feeding occurs in the yards, otherwise they aren't a concern.

I will agree with your second and last statements. You and I both are on opposite ends of opinion, but we both know and have lived thru and are vested in the aftermath of what was dropped on the NELP from the mid 90's to present day. Hunters in the hot zone don't really understand just what is gonna come at them and roost for the next 10 years.


----------



## swampbuck

Mineral sites...it just occurred to me. Deer dropping prion on the soil and eating the soil....that has got to be the worst possible transmission point in existence


----------



## 96215

I understand CWD.
What I don't understand is how this topic became 
QDMers vs brown it's downers
Upper Pennensula vs Lower 
Food plotters vs natural browsers
Realtree vs Mossyoak
Boxers vs Briefs
North vs South
Black vs White
Tastes great vs Less filling
What the hell!!!!


----------



## johnhunter

swampbuck said:


> Mineral sites...it just occurred to me. Deer dropping prion on the soil and eating the soil....that has got to be the worst possible transmission point in existence


If it just occurred to you, you really haven't been paying attention.:yikes:

Essays have been written about this subject, and it has been discussed for many years now. 

Consider also all of the commercial doe urine collected from deer residing in pens.


----------



## NovemberWhitetailz

Jamorris said:


> I understand CWD.
> What I don't understand is how this topic became
> QDMers vs brown it's downers
> Upper Pennensula vs Lower
> Food plotters vs natural browsers
> Realtree vs Mossyoak
> Boxers vs Briefs
> North vs South
> Black vs White
> Tastes great vs Less filling
> What the hell!!!!


Because certain people have to blame someone for the issue vs standing up and try to come up with a solution. Easier that way!


----------



## Liver and Onions

Jamorris said:


> I understand CWD.
> What I don't understand is how this topic became
> QDMers vs brown it's downers
> Upper Pennensula vs Lower
> Food plotters vs natural browsers
> .........
> What the hell!!!!


Yep. 

L & O


----------



## Walt Donaldson

HUBBHUNTER2 said:


> Because certain people have to blame someone for the issue vs standing up and try to come up with a solution. Easier that way!


Every difference in opinion is not a difference in principle!


----------



## Alan Michaels

sniper said:


> I can see the forrest and the trees just fine. ...When I'm actually walking around in the forrest!..Reality is a fine concept.


Ok Einstein* :lol:*


----------



## ratherboutside

I believe that over the course of the CWD outbreak and the following sustained existance, a certain number of deer will die regardless of what we do. Those deer will either die from hunters trying to eliminate the disease by thinning the heard or the disease thinning the heard. Disease outbreaks generally occur as a result of over population. Nature tends to over correct and then maintain. I don't think that we can stop the inevitable. We may buy ourselves a few years by delaying the spread but it won't stop spreading nor stop killing until it's job is done. Just my thoughts.


----------



## Steve

farmlegend said:


> Consider also all of the commercial doe urine collected from deer residing in pens.


Yeah that is quite the disease vector and very insidious. If the movement of deer from an infected area is banned, the movement of deer products through interstate commerce should be put under a microscope.


----------



## plugger

Alan Michaels said:


> How does MSU dispose of diagnostic waste.


 They incinerate it. They have a set up that can burn an elephant.


----------



## webb72475

I live in Shiawassee County and my 20 acres is in Woodhull Township Im on the edge of the cross-hairs. Ive worked mine and my families fingers to the bone since we bought the property, where the goal was to have a place to hunt for myself, my wife and my kids. My habitat goals have been to use every acre to build the best habitat for deer and turkeys as possible. To give my family the most wildlife viewings as possible to keep them interested as they grow. Ill continue to take trips to other states when I can, to look for trophies.

Ive read compelling information from several points of view, not only here, but other sources as well. Ive got to say its been tough to weed out real information from garbage. I just downloaded the updated MDNR Response Plan from 2012. Ill go through it and likely follow their recommendations. Even if they arent the best solutions, keep in mind what my long term goals are. Although it pains me to think of killing of as many deer as possible and possibly not providing year round food, it pains me more to think that when my kids or older or when Im gone that things could be much worse. I know Ive only got 20 acres, but Im responsible for it. Ill risk some prime years of my life with low sightings if it could potentially help in the long run. That doesnt mean that Im sold on the fact that this is what it will take to mitigate CWD, but the risk/reward in my long view tells me to play it safe, for the futures sake.

Im the prime example of a small time QDMA student. Ive got great cover, several small and micro plots, natural and unnatural licking branches, mineral stations, etc I live QDMA year round. Id love to hear (and still hope to hear) some definitive proof to guide me to go one way or the other, but until then, Ive got to play on the safe side. Which I hope that is what the State is doing as well. I dont want to do that, but I feel like I should. I wont dog people who dont, my view is my view. I cant factually tell any side that they are completely wrong. 

I want a healthy, long lived and thriving heard for generations to come.


----------



## Airoh

Alan Michaels said:


> How does MSU dispose of diagnostic waste.


I was told from the DNR that public landfill is their policy.
That was when the Kent county deer was found.


----------



## Airoh

plugger said:


> They incinerate it. They have a set up that can burn an elephant.


It's almost indestructible. It takes 900 degrees sustained for 4 hours to (kill) it. Deactivate is probably a better word.


----------



## soggybtmboys

Airoh said:


> It's almost indestructible. It takes 900 degrees sustained for 4 hours to (kill) it. Deactivate is probably a better word.



900 degrees isn't that hot, typical house fire is 1200 degrees. Sorry I'm thinking like a metal maker. 900 is hot to be sustained for 4 hours in a non smelting facility.


----------



## greense1

Airoh said:


> It's almost indestructible. It takes 900 degrees sustained for 4 hours to (kill) it. Deactivate is probably a better word.


just curious as to where you read this or if you could link it. Curious on this kind of information.


----------



## Joe Archer

bioactive said:


> Very unrealistic since there has been Lots of Attention on the river system in IL.
> 
> *You are focused on a specific fear mongering theory constructed as part of an anti APR campaign rather than the far more likely possibility that a carcass was dumped*.


Not at all. I am hoping that efforts to basically eliminate the deer herd in that area do not take place. 
My comments have nothing to do with APR's. 
Instead, I would hope for realistic (research based) population density targets that will allow hunting to continue in the future while still limiting prevalence rates. 
If you could go back years ago, I openly spoke out against the DNR response plan to eliminate all deer for a 5 mile radius around each and every positive case of CWD discovered. Basically, that plan was just plain stupid. Thank goodness, they changed that one! 
The bottom line is that we are not alone. Hopefully we can learn from the mistakes of those who tried and failed before us.
The only fear I have is that drawing circles, and decimating deer herds will kill many more deer than the actual disease could kill itself.
<----<<<


----------



## Waif

Hang in there webb.
Lots of speculation abounds while awaiting further testing results.
In a long term plan,prime habitat will flourish before others.
E.H.D. reduced one friends land's deer years ago and while showing signs of a rebound it is slow , yet with the deer looking healthy in the less competitive structure.
The equity of your labor is not lost. Fruit will follow eventually.


----------



## Jigawhat

farmlegend said:


> At this point, Joe, that is presumptuous.
> 
> From the third-hand information that I have, there is a highly suspect dumping location very nearby where this deer was found that is the site of the disposal of a large number of deer carcasses. Allegedly being looked into.


Just yesterday, in my haste to do some additional research, I googled "Meridian Twp deet" ("deet" was a typo), this article was/is the 2nd link: 
From December 2014

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/...arcass-dump-site-found-meridian-twp/19907447/

I immediately thought to myself - well that certainly could have been the source! 
Makes me sick...

Gruesome deer carcass dump site found in Meridian Twp.
Matthew Miller, [email protected] 7:10 a.m. EST December 5, 2014










MERIDIAN TWP. &#8212; David VanderKlok and his dog came upon the carnage at the corner of Van Atta and Tihart roads on Sunday morning.

In the trees next to a harvested corn field, within easy view of the road, there were more than a dozen deer carcasses, rib cages that had been picked clean, pelts crumpled and flattened like deflated balloons.

A neighbor had warned him weeks before "but I probably just minimized it," he said.

He's seen a lot of coyotes at that intersection the past few months.

"Even in broad daylight, they're running down the shoulders of the road," said VanderKlok, who lives just over a mile from the site. "That's obviously what they've been attracted to."

It's got to be cleaned up, he said.

The state Department of Natural Resources and the Meridian Township Police are aware of the carcasses.

"We suspect there's somebody who is dumping those carcasses," said Chad Fedewa, a wildlife biologist at the DNR's Rose Lake field office, potentially a processor.

On Thursday morning, there were what appeared to be tire tracks running the few feet from the road to the site. The wire fence surrounding the property had been crumpled at the point where the tracks end. An empty Miller Lite can lay nearby.

Meridian Township Police Chief David Hall said dumped deer carcasses are "not common at all" in the township. His department is investigating. As to whether a deer processor was the culprit, "that would be speculation," he said.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Jigawhat said:


> Just yesterday, in my haste to do some additional research, I googled "Meridian Twp deet" ("deet" was a typo), this article was/is the 2nd link:
> From December 2014
> 
> I immediately thought to myself - well that certainly could have been the source!
> Makes me sick...


Nice find, very interesting.


----------



## Airoh

greense1 said:


> just curious as to where you read this or if you could link it. Curious on this kind of information.


Here's a link
http://wiki.ggc.edu/wiki/Creutzfeldt-Jakob_disease_Fall_'13

England has (had) a street full of warehouses full of ash from the cows.
They burned a butt load of them before they found out how high a temp it takes to disable it.
This is going back a lot of years now, I think they said it took 1100 or 1200 degrees back then. That may still be true considering it takes 4 hrs. at 900 degrees.


----------



## QDMAMAN

Steve said:


> Yeah that is quite the disease vector and very insidious. If the movement of deer from an infected area is banned, the movement of deer products through interstate commerce should be put under a microscope.


 
"Some scientists now wonder if the wide distribution of doe urine might be partly responsible for the spread of CWD from the West to the East," he said.
"Doe urine from deer in other states should not be introduced into Pennsylvania soils. Even the small risk that the purchased doe urine might contain CWD-causing prions should discourage responsible hunters from using it."
http://news.psu.edu/story/145597/20...e-should-consider-deer-feeding-ban-combat-cwd


----------



## HUBBHUNTER

Jamorris said:


> I understand CWD.
> What I don't understand is how this topic became
> QDMers vs brown it's downers
> Upper Pennensula vs Lower
> Food plotters vs natural browsers
> Realtree vs Mossyoak
> Boxers vs Briefs
> North vs South
> Black vs White
> Tastes great vs Less filling
> What the hell!!!!


Everyone has an agenda and for the brown it's down guys they seem to be enjoying the idea of finally having a rock solid, go to, look at me doing the right thing justification for bringing the buck age structure back down to their level. Older bucks have a higher chance of having CWD so let's just shoot them before they get that old. How about you shoot that 4 point because it got you excited and then stop justifying to keep your ego afloat. And take a few does while you're at it. 

CWD is with us so stop blaming and taking sides and just deal with it.


----------



## field-n-feathers

Jigawhat said:


> Just yesterday, in my haste to do some additional research, I googled "Meridian Twp deet" ("deet" was a typo), this article was/is the 2nd link:
> From December 2014
> 
> http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/...arcass-dump-site-found-meridian-twp/19907447/
> 
> I immediately thought to myself - well that certainly could have been the source!
> Makes me sick...
> 
> Gruesome deer carcass dump site found in Meridian Twp.
> Matthew Miller, [email protected] 7:10 a.m. EST December 5, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MERIDIAN TWP.  David VanderKlok and his dog came upon the carnage at the corner of Van Atta and Tihart roads on Sunday morning.
> 
> In the trees next to a harvested corn field, within easy view of the road, there were more than a dozen deer carcasses, rib cages that had been picked clean, pelts crumpled and flattened like deflated balloons.
> 
> A neighbor had warned him weeks before "but I probably just minimized it," he said.
> 
> He's seen a lot of coyotes at that intersection the past few months.
> 
> "Even in broad daylight, they're running down the shoulders of the road," said VanderKlok, who lives just over a mile from the site. "That's obviously what they've been attracted to."
> 
> It's got to be cleaned up, he said.
> 
> The state Department of Natural Resources and the Meridian Township Police are aware of the carcasses.
> 
> "We suspect there's somebody who is dumping those carcasses," said Chad Fedewa, a wildlife biologist at the DNR's Rose Lake field office, potentially a processor.
> 
> On Thursday morning, there were what appeared to be tire tracks running the few feet from the road to the site. The wire fence surrounding the property had been crumpled at the point where the tracks end. An empty Miller Lite can lay nearby.
> 
> Meridian Township Police Chief David Hall said dumped deer carcasses are "not common at all" in the township. His department is investigating. As to whether a deer processor was the culprit, "that would be speculation," he said.


Bingo. I would not be surprised in the least if they found these deer to also be CWD positive and/or, at the very least, from a suspect cervid facility. Time will tell. For the sake of our deer herd, we can only hope that this is the case. If so, all the more reason to ban them completely.






QDMAMAN said:


> "Some scientists now wonder if the wide distribution of doe urine might be partly responsible for the spread of CWD from the West to the East," he said.
> "Doe urine from deer in other states should not be introduced into Pennsylvania soils. Even the small risk that the purchased doe urine might contain CWD-causing prions should discourage responsible hunters from using it."
> http://news.psu.edu/story/145597/20...e-should-consider-deer-feeding-ban-combat-cwd


Agree completely.


----------



## Airoh

I've been on an Amish farm with three times that many.


----------



## billmitch

bucksnbows said:


> Is it expected for all hunters in the state of Michigan to step up to the plate and do the right thing ( what ever that exactly is) or are we speaking of those in the immediate area?
> 
> As I have heard the responsible thing to do is quit baiting, food plots, protecting bucks, etc in areas of known disease.
> 
> Some of the posts seem to be saying the above things need to be done across the state.
> 
> Just looking for some clarification in case I feel the need to respond.


BNB, i think immediately we should ban baiting, encourage hunters to not plant plots, and temporarily stop aprs until the response plan has begun, and we can start testing kills from the infected area. I know some will think thats over the top, but until we have a handle on the extent of the problem, i think it would be wise to elikinate every possible vector of transmission. I kow thats not popular but i would rather be overboard so down the road we caning and always reinstate things if as we all hope this doesnt go much further, instead of doing nothing and paying a potentially huge price later.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

TVCJohn said:


> Jim,
> 
> Based on the info at the USDA/APHIS website, it looks like the deer farms have to be certified. I assume that means disease free. If that is the case, natural deer pee from these farms should not be an issue. My old hunting group was getting deer pee by the gallons from a farm in New York.
> 
> JOhn



You can not confirm that a deer has CWD while it is alive. You could be the one introducing it into the environment and not even know it. That's a much greater risk than the 1,000s of food plots that you are concerned about.


----------



## TVCJohn

Liver and Onions said:


> Or so they were told. I would be surprised if even 5% of the "real deer urine" is from deer.
> Remember the Fred Trost story that got him sued from the deer pee company near Stanton ?
> 
> Showing you how we harvest our 100% Doe and Buck Urine. - YouTube
> 
> Field & Stream article:
> 
> http://www.fieldandstream.com/node/1005010801
> 
> L & O


 
Our guy would go up to the deer farm and get it. They had stalls the buck or doe was kept for a period of time. There was a drain at the bottom that would collect the urine. I think the does were given some type of hormone to stimulate estrous. I think this is the place below. What some guys would do is buy several gallons and then break it down to 12 or 16 oz bottles and resell it. It comes refrigerated and is fresh, never frozen. It looks like beer. Old stuff turns dark brown.

http://www.concordwhitetailscents.com/index.php


----------



## bioactive

Jamorris said:


> I understand CWD.
> What I don't understand is how this topic became
> QDMers vs brown it's downers
> Upper Pennensula vs Lower
> Food plotters vs natural browsers
> Realtree vs Mossyoak
> Boxers vs Briefs
> North vs South
> Black vs White
> Tastes great vs Less filling
> What the hell!!!!


Simple. It was used by the anti-APR zealots as a bogeyman.


----------



## bioactive

plugger said:


> They incinerate it. They have a set up that can burn an elephant.


Uh huh. So why were two deer pen owners arrested, prosecuted, and convicted for sneaking a deer out of a known CWD contaminated facility in Michigan in order to release it to the wild?

You can talk about the risks of deer migrating around river corridors until you are blue in the face but it is thousands of times more likely that CWD will be transferred in a pick-up truck bed or a horse trailer.


----------



## TVCJohn

Luv2hunteup said:


> You can not confirm that a deer has CWD while it is alive. You could be the one introducing it into the environment and not even know it. That's a much greater risk than the 1,000s of food plots that you are concerned about.


 
See below for testing on live animals.

http://www.ct.gov/deep/cwp/view.asp?a=2700&q=323412



> *How is CWD diagnosed?
> *Prior to 2008, the only method to definitively diagnose CWD was to examine the brain, tonsils, or lymph nodes in a laboratory. No live-animal test, vaccine, or treatment for CWD existed. In 2008, researchers from the USDA-APHIS and Colorado State University evaluated and validated the first live rectal-tissue biopsy method for detecting chronic wasting disease (CWD) in captive and wild elk. The live rectal biopsy test appears to be nearly as accurate as a post-mortem diagnostic test. The key advantage to the rectal biopsy test is that it can be performed on live animals. With this technique, managers can detect CWD in animals not showing any signs of the disease and, thus, remove them to decrease the likelihood of infecting other individuals. This new live test will improve management and control of the disease, especially in captive settings.


 
The issue with the bait plots is within the DNR response plan. Restrict bait piles but not bait plots? In this ongoing situation, the consensus here is that getting rid of bait piles only does not go far enough.


Edit added: Here is a govt link on live testing results for CWD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22914819


----------



## Falk

TVCJohn said:


> See below for testing on live animals.
> 
> http://www.ct.gov/deep/cwp/view.asp?a=2700&q=323412
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The issue with the bait plots is within the DNR response plan. Restrict bait piles but not bait plots? In this ongoing situation, the consensus here is that getting rid of bait piles only does not go far enough.


Might as well include all ag fields. Same thing as a food plots.


----------



## TVCJohn

bioactive said:


> Simple. It was used by the anti-APR zealots as a bogeyman.


Jim, 

I think this is your 2nd post about the anti-APR bubbas. Unless I missed it, I haven't really seen any anti-APR posts or discussions specifically trying to take advantage of this SLP CWD situation. You're fishing for an agenda that I don't think anyone on this thread is trying to push or take advantage of. 

So far, I feel this whole CWD thread has been pretty informative and educational...at least for me.

John


----------



## TVCJohn

Falk said:


> Might as well include all ag fields. Same thing as a food plots.


Like has already been discussed, that likely isn't going to happen.


----------



## plugger

bioactive said:


> Uh huh. So why were two deer pen owners arrested, prosecuted, and convicted for sneaking a deer out of a known CWD contaminated facility in Michigan in order to release it to the wild?
> 
> You can talk about the risks of deer migrating around river corridors until you are blue in the face but it is thousands of times more likely that CWD will be transferred in a pick-up truck bed or a horse trailer.


 Somebody asked what MSU does not what two deer pen owners do. MSU actually has burned an elephant. I talked to the guy that ran it several years ago, he said when the green trucks come in you don't want to know what's in them. 
Is it possible for you to be involved in a civil discussion? Everyone's cherrios got pissed in yesterday morning not just yours. Now is the time to move forward when the DNR outlines a plan. You can be part of the solution, part of the problem or just whine that something as inconsequential as APR's is dead. This is so much bigger and is going to cause a lot of problems for a lot of people.


----------



## johnhunter247

bigbuck said:


> Got to tell you I have hunted in three other Midwestern states on several different pieces of ground over a number of years, I also hunt on private ground in Michigan. I see a far higher percentage of mature bucks in the other states. Maybe my experience is unique but I don't think so.



Your experience is definitely not unique! The hunting as far as mature deer sightings in the states west of here is far more superior and no comparison. The guys that only hunt here just don't know any better...


----------



## stickbow shooter

TVCJohn said:


> Jim,
> 
> I think this is your 2nd post about the anti-APR bubbas. Unless I missed it, I haven't really seen any anti-APR posts or discussions specifically trying to take advantage of this SLP CWD situation. You're fishing for an agenda that I don't think anyone on this thread is trying to push or take advantage of.
> 
> So far, I feel this whole CWD thread has been pretty informative and educational...at least for me.
> 
> John


You are not alone. I haven't seen any anti- apr talk.


----------



## bioactive

TVCJohn said:


> Jim,
> 
> I think this is your 2nd post about the anti-APR bubbas. Unless I missed it, I haven't really seen any anti-APR posts or discussions specifically trying to take advantage of this SLP CWD situation. You're fishing for an agenda that I don't think anyone on this thread is trying to push or take advantage of.
> 
> So far, I feel this whole CWD thread has been pretty informative and educational...at least for me.
> 
> John


There are hundreds of such posts.

There are none now because it is obvious that nothing about this incident is related to APRs or river corridors with 100 mile migrations of yearling bucks who were spared because of APRs, but it was a central theme for some fear mongerers for a long time. 

The spread of CWD is and always has been mainly related to transport of deer among cervid facilities and transportation of deer parts and pieces among states by ignorant or uncaring hunters. 

Please, these forums are filled with nonsense about APRs being a likely source of CWD spread.


----------



## wintrrun

Falk said:


> Might as well include all ag fields. Same thing as a food plots.


One is planted with the intent to go to market and fuel industry and the other is planted with the intent to feed wildlife with an emphasis to draw, feed and sometimes harvest a deer in
No doubt you are surrounded by deer managers with 1000's of acres and 40-80 acre food plots being the norm.


----------



## wintrrun

stickbow shooter said:


> You are not alone. I haven't seen any anti- apr talk.


It's just Bio being Bio.
His words of the week in the hopes other biologists, politicians and lurkers might take notice.:lol:


----------



## johnhunter

Magic Man said:


> The should manage the herd to a reasonable carrying capacity for the state. I just hope they don't try to kill all the deer thinking that is a solution. Too late for that now, let's just keep the population manageable and hope for the best. A disease like this appears to be basically unstoppable.


Disagree. Some states have had success in confining and controlling CWD in their deer herds. Throwing in the towel ain't my style in matters like this.



billmitch said:


> i would rather be overboard so down the road we can always reinstate things if as we all hope this doesnt go much further, instead of doing nothing and paying a potentially huge price later.


Agree.


Hypothetically, if CWD in Michigan was found to be centered on my farm and the parcels that surround it, I would seriously go to war on the deer, with the objective of eradicating them completely, even if it meant I could never hunt them at my property again. Once the deer were gone, I'd take up waterfowling and perhaps some rabbit and squirrel hunting. Lots of ducks and geese around.

Still couldn't imagine hunting turkeys though.


----------



## Magic Man

Farm legend. Whether or not you throw the towel in or not, really does not matter. This is out of your control, like it or not. Chances of eradicating this disease now are slim and none and slim just left town. You want to kill all the deer on your property have at it. You are one person, what real difference can you make.


----------



## johnhunter

wintrrun said:


> One is planted with the intent to go to market and fuel industry and the other is planted with the intent to feed wildlife with an emphasis to draw, feed and sometimes harvest a deer in


Nonsense. Falk was quite correct that one may as well ban ag fields. 

Can you imagine putting together a law or regulation directed at banning wildlife food plots littered up with the "intent" of the guy planting them? :lol: 

A regulation seeking to restrict food plots would be impossible to craft without likewise banning a number of common agricultural practices or a homeowner's backyard vegetable garden or sweet corn patch.


----------



## johnhunter

Magic Man said:


> Farm legend. Whether or not you throw the towel in or not, really does not matter. This is out of your control, like it or not. Chances of eradicating this disease now are slim and none and slim just left town.


There is not enough known abo about the extent of CWD amongst wild deer in Michigan, as of now, to eliminate the possibility of controlling the disease similar to what MN and NY have done.

I'm getting the impression that preserving the ability to hunt lots of deer is more important to some than is isolating and controlling CWD.


----------



## plugger

Magic Man said:


> Farm legend. Whether or not you throw the towel in or not, really does not matter. This is out of your control, like it or not. Chances of eradicating this disease now are slim and none and slim just left town. You want to kill all the deer on your property have at it. You are one person, what real difference can you make.


 Farm Legend plan may not eradicate CWD on his property but an aggressive response may contain or slow the spread.


----------



## Magic Man

Farm legend. Handwriting is on the wall. Live with it or don't, world will keep spinning. Mother nature runs the show always has, always will.


----------



## johnhunter

Magic Man said:


> Farm legend. Handwriting is on the wall. Live with it or don't, world will keep spinning. Mother nature runs the show always has, always will.


As for me, I'm glad that the scientists and physicians who have developed modern medicine didn't share your attitude.


----------



## Sustainable

If you you facebook, MIBuckpole posted an interview with a DNR biologist on CWD done by Mike Avery. Here is a link to Mike's video section, it is at the top third video over. 

https://www.facebook.com/OutdoorMagazine/videos


----------



## billmitch

i know they were working on a cwd vaccine, anyone know if any progress has been made?


----------



## field-n-feathers

Sustainable said:


> If you you facebook, MIBuckpole posted an interview with a DNR biologist on CWD done by Mike Avery. Here is a link to Mike's video section, it is at the top third video over.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/OutdoorMagazine/videos


I told myself a few years ago that I would never listen to, read, or watch anything done by Mike Avery ever again. I put him in the same category as Richard P Smith and the not so known make believe journalist from Flint.


----------



## Sustainable

This is my first time hearing of him. Buckpole shared it. I enjoyed hearing some questions answered from the DNR directly, I think most here would. Continue with your boycott


----------



## field-n-feathers

Sustainable said:


> This is my first time hearing of him. Buckpole shared it. I enjoyed hearing some questions answered from the DNR directly, I think most here would. Continue with your boycott


There was no offense intended or directed at you. Sorry if it came across that way.


----------



## buggs

webb72475 said:


> I live in Shiawassee County and my 20 acres is in Woodhull Township Im on the edge of the cross-hairs. Ive worked mine and my families fingers to the bone since we bought the property, where the goal was to have a place to hunt for myself, my wife and my kids. My habitat goals have been to use every acre to build the best habitat for deer and turkeys as possible. To give my family the most wildlife viewings as possible to keep them interested as they grow. Ill continue to take trips to other states when I can, to look for trophies.
> 
> Ive read compelling information from several points of view, not only here, but other sources as well. Ive got to say its been tough to weed out real information from garbage. I just downloaded the updated MDNR Response Plan from 2012. Ill go through it and likely follow their recommendations. Even if they arent the best solutions, keep in mind what my long term goals are. Although it pains me to think of killing of as many deer as possible and possibly not providing year round food, it pains me more to think that when my kids or older or when Im gone that things could be much worse. I know Ive only got 20 acres, but Im responsible for it. Ill risk some prime years of my life with low sightings if it could potentially help in the long run. That doesnt mean that Im sold on the fact that this is what it will take to mitigate CWD, but the risk/reward in my long view tells me to play it safe, for the futures sake.
> 
> Im the prime example of a small time QDMA student. Ive got great cover, several small and micro plots, natural and unnatural licking branches, mineral stations, etc I live QDMA year round. Id love to hear (and still hope to hear) some definitive proof to guide me to go one way or the other, but until then, Ive got to play on the safe side. Which I hope that is what the State is doing as well. I dont want to do that, but I feel like I should. I wont dog people who dont, my view is my view. I cant factually tell any side that they are completely wrong.
> 
> I want a healthy, long lived and thriving heard for generations to come.


Best post I've read so far! No name calling or finger pointing - no speculation or conjecture, just a good ole boy near ground zero trying his best to set a good example for the rest of us by doing his part - even if he is reluctant.


----------



## swampbuck

Bio, as far as APR's, you have stated in the past that you would not support them in a disease area....is that still your position?

Farmlegend, your post regarding what you would do is outstanding ! Statements like that are encouraging, especially from a respected member here.

As for myself, if it was in my area I would absolutely participate in the herd reduction and containment efforts....and It would be the second time, the first was in the TB zone.


----------



## Alan Michaels

Have they started the eradication effort yet? 
Or are they waiting for conformation from the national lab?


----------



## Alan Michaels

ratherboutside said:


> Not sure if anyone posted or not, but this is the MSU lab disposal procedure
> 
> http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Sections/Necropsy/FAQ.php


Do they incinerate everything (paper waste, gauze, swabs...etc) or only the animals?
I have never worked in this type of lab, so I have no idea.


----------



## Groundsize

field-n-feathers said:


> Bingo. I would not be surprised in the least if they found these deer to also be CWD positive and/or, at the very least, from a suspect cervid facility. Time will tell. For the sake of our deer herd, we can only hope that this is the case. If so, all the more reason to ban them completely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree completely.


What are you talking about? BINGO WHAT? A simple test will show if these are native Michigan deer and even what county or not and if so will what disease is this spreading? surly not CWD. Only if this so called pile of deer carcasses are from an Infected CWD area and trucked back in and butchered and dumped would this be possible. everyone is a deer Biologist now.


----------



## bigbuck

johnhunter247 said:


> Your experience is definitely not unique! The hunting as far as mature deer sightings in the states west of here is far more superior and no comparison. The guys that only hunt here just don't know any better...


Yea I know. With 46 years hunting Michigan in all three zones and 18 years hunting out of state there really is no comparison when it comes to mature bucks. I guess the good news would be if mature bucks are a much higher risk for CWD like some have stated, perhaps the progression won't be as fast as some think.


----------



## greense1

Magic Man said:


> Farm legend. Whether or not you throw the towel in or not, really does not matter. This is out of your control, like it or not. Chances of eradicating this disease now are slim and none and slim just left town. You want to kill all the deer on your property have at it. You are one person, what real difference can you make.


This is the type of attitude that will be the death of fixing the problem. You are correct 1 person can't make a real difference if there are others who refuse to follow whatever plan they will come up with. It's going to take everyone working together and there's still a shot we can contain it. But it's going to take everyone working towards whatever plan scientists and biologists come up with. I have personal opinions on the matter but when it comes time I will at minimum follow whatever plan they outline because they undoubtedly have access to more information and knowledge than I do. I don't want future generations to not enjoy what I have been able to enjoy so far because I was selfish. Yeah hunting may be bad for a while but it's better than having CWD spread through the whole state and ruin everyone's hunting. Just my opinion, the whole you're only 1 person you can't do anything attitude won't get anyone anywhere.


----------



## Alan Michaels

You know this could be a byproduct of the Kent county case we just have never found one yet.
Due to hunting pressure in Michigan, the draw down of the antlerless population in zone #3, then the EHD outbreak.
We just never found one that is this clinical until it reached that Twp. with the over population problem.
Hope I'm wrong because Vermontville is in the line between the 2 cases and they may have been eating those deer, eh QDMAMAN?


----------



## Groundsize

Alan Michaels said:


> Have they started the eradication effort yet?
> Or are they waiting for conformation from the national lab?


Didn't anyone listen to the radio interview with DNR director Keith Creagh? 
MSU confirmed the case twice, then the national lab in Iowa confirmed it.


----------



## CHASINEYES

wintrrun said:


> One is planted with the intent to go to market and fuel industry and the other is planted with the intent to feed wildlife with an emphasis to draw, feed and sometimes harvest a deer in
> No doubt you are surrounded by deer managers with 1000's of acres and 40-80 acre food plots being the norm.


That's right. How anyone can argue that small foodplots designed to attract deer in relatively confined areas is the same as ag crops, is beyond me. Smallish clover plots within cover or in and around staging areas, with care, can last 5 years without having to till them under for replanting. These small plots within cover funnel deer before they disperse into the open ag land or forested lands. Even small plots with grains confine deer year after year and for much longer periods throughout the year versus harvested ag crops.

I'm not attacking foodplots, I like to dabble in them myself. Fruit trees do the same. Just keeping it real.


----------



## Groundsize

Alan Michaels said:


> You know this could be a byproduct of the Kent county case we just have never found one yet.
> Due to hunting pressure in Michigan, the draw down of the antlerless population in zone #3, then the EHD outbreak.
> We just never found one that is this clinical until it reached that Twp. with the over population problem.
> Hope I'm wrong because Vermontville is in the line between the 2 cases and they may have been eating those deer, eh QDMAMAN?


Who stated and with what evidence that in that particular zone there is an over population problem with deer? How many deer did a deer biologist suggest should be in that area or are these just your own assumptions?


----------



## Groundsize

CHASINEYES said:


> That's right. How anyone can argue that small foodplots designed to attract deer in relatively confined areas is the same as ag crops, is beyond me. Smallish clover plots within cover or in and around staging areas, with care, can last 5 years without having to till them under for replanting. These small plots within cover funnel deer before they disperse into the open ag land or forested lands. Even small plots with grains confine deer year after year and for much longer periods throughout the year versus harvested ag crops.
> 
> I'm not attacking foodplots, I like to dabble in them myself. Fruit trees do the same. Just keeping it real.



Your comment/statement is a little confusing.
So what your saying is a fall plot planted from August and last until January with no substantial cover and of minimal height in a tiny area confines a deer/herd/family group more than a typical corn field that stands for 6 months time and provides ample cover all day every day would!?!? And would lead to an increased number of Prions to be released in the soil to infect more deer???? Knowing Prions must be coming from CWD infected deer/ or soil to contaminate the soil in the first place and we have only had two cases here in Michigan. This is false and with no supporting evidence is non believable.


----------



## CHASINEYES

Groundsize said:


> Your comment/statement is a little confusing.
> So what your saying is a fall plot planted from August and last until January with no substantial cover and of minimal height in a tiny area confines a deer/herd/family group more than a typical corn field that stands for 6 months time and provides ample cover all day every day would!?!? And would lead to an increased number of Prions to be released in the soil to infect more deer???? Knowing Prions must be coming from CWD infected deer/ or soil to contaminate the soil in the first place and we have only had two cases here in Michigan. This is false and with no supporting evidence is non believable.


I don't know about you, but I can place a ladino plot within cover and funnel just about every deer within a wooded area through that plot. They all get a turn swapping spit. That may change with hunting pressure, but for most of the year they're easily funneled.


----------



## soggybtmboys

Groundsize said:


> What factual scientific evidence conducted through extensive studies by a research group/DNR/deer or wildlife biologist did you get your evidence from to support your claim???? Because with out it this is just your opinion.



He doesn't have any, he has only anecdotal observation that is jumping to conclusion based on what is peer reviewed and consensus about baiting and supplemental feeding, and attempting to apply it....erroneously, to wildlife planting and food plots. 

What is out there, is a mountain of evidence, peer reviewed study, documentation, and credible consensus from the biological community on disease and the link to baiting and supplemental feeding. I have a flash drive full of it. Bio is spot on and echoes what professional wildlife managers say in the private and public sectors regarding habitat and deer management. 

If one disagrees, please cite and post a consensus among the biological community in a peer reviewed document that addresses your assertion to support your position against wildlife plantings. If you cannot, you have no leg to stand on.


----------



## johnhunter

bioactive said:


> The single most counter-productive thing I could think of to do if CWD were found in my area would be to reduce the availability of food. If I remove the food plots on my property, it means the deer will have to concentrate on whatever existing food remains. It does not even remotely make sense to me to reduce food availability to deer when they are faced with needing to maintain their health to resist disease.
> 
> Good habitat, good food, food variety, distribution of food over many locations and maintaining low deer populations, all of which are goals on my properties, are the best way to help deer to be healthy, have low social stress, low interfamilial contact, and maintain good physical condition with a well primed immune system to combat disease.
> 
> Each and every food plot you remove forces deer to have fewer choices and forces them to become more concentrated on remaining food sources.


Some, predictably, quickly pooh-poohed this.

My farm is, to be frank about it, an excellent illustration of the point made here. It is darn near wall-to-wall deer food. Row crops, cutover woodlands, wetlands, and old fields. Seedlings, saplings, sprouts, forbs, brambles, and legumes. And a few wildlife food plots. Because of the abundance of food, deer feeding activities are NOT heavily concentrated, ANYWHERE.

I have never, not in 16 years of foodplotting, had a food plot wiped out by deer. I wouldn't know what it looked like. There's ALWAYS deer food in my food plots. And that's because the deer have a large variety of stuff to eat at a large variety of locations. 

Unlike many, I can confidently plant a half acre patch of soybeans and, come autumn, I'll have a patch of ripened soybean pods. And that's because deer do not visit these plots every single day, because they can routinely fill their bellies elsewhere.

This discussion of foodplotting being a perilous activity is a truly immaterial distraction in the endeavor to combat CWD, obscurring the 900 pound gorilla in attacking this disease: the need to radically reduce deer numbers, even to the point of eliminating deer, in the affected areas. I view the biggest enemy in this to be the _cie la vie_ attitude of tolerating the disease, so long as hunters continue to have a sufficient number of targets to hunt.


----------



## soggybtmboys

farmlegend said:


> Some, predictably, quickly pooh-poohed this.
> 
> 
> 
> My farm is, to be frank about it, an excellent illustration of the point made here. It is darn near wall-to-wall deer food. Row crops, cutover woodlands, wetlands, and old fields. Seedlings, saplings, forbs, brambles, and legumes. And a few wildlife food plots. Because of the abundance of food, deer feeding activities are NOT heavily concentrated, ANYWHERE.
> 
> 
> 
> I have never, not in 16 years of foodplotting, had a food plot wiped out by deer. I wouldn't know what it looked like. There's ALWAYS deer food in my food plots. And that's because the deer have a large variety of stuff to eat at a large variety of locations.
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike many, I can confidently plant a half acre patch of soybeans and, come autumn, I'll have a patch of ripened soybean pods. And that's because deer do not visit these plots every single day, because they can routinely fill their bellies elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> This discussion of foodplotting being a perilous activity is a truly immaterial distraction in the endeavor to combat CWD, obscurring the 900 pound gorilla in combating this disease: the need to radically reduce deer numbers, even to the point of eliminating deer, in the affected areas. I view the biggest enemy in this to be the cie la vie attitude of tolerating the disease, so long as hunters continue to have a sufficient number of targets to hunt.



Agreed, population reduction is absolutely critical.


----------



## field-n-feathers

Groundsize said:


> What are you talking about? BINGO WHAT? A simple test will show if these are native Michigan deer and even what county or not and if so will what disease is this spreading? surly not CWD. Only if this so called pile of deer carcasses are from an Infected CWD area and trucked back in and butchered and dumped would this be possible. everyone is a deer Biologist now.


Slow down, relax, and then please read what I wrote again. "I would not be surprised if...." should be your first clue. Thank you.


----------



## CHASINEYES

Groundsize said:


> Family groups/ bachelor groups/ and such groom each other and co-mingle with each other swapping spit all day. This disease needs to be present, it just doesn't miraculously appear from two health deer eating the same turnip top.


I agree. And, IMO is why deer in the CWD area need to be eradicated before the disease fans out. Not only that, there may be only few with the disease and very little of that eviroment contaminated thus far. Why not eliminate every possible threat to the future of this area supporting a disease free lower density herd. I don't see it happening though, as it only takes 20-40 unhunted acres to harbor 30-50 deer during daylight hours. I'm certain there will be several selfish individuals (hunter or not) who will be detrimental to such an effort.


----------



## Midalake

CHASINEYES said:


> No. I would say the sq mile with improved habitat would keep them scattered about. As bio pointed out, family groups would be spread out doing their own thing.
> 
> Take those same 30 deer in marginal habitat and give them a highly favored food source in a relatively smalll area. Family groups stand in line wating for the group before them to leave so they can move in. Almost like cattle at the trough.



The point you forgot is the the managed food plot Sq/mile will now have 45-50 deer on it and the Sq mile next door will have 15.........


----------



## ratherboutside

greense1 said:


> This is the type of attitude that will be the death of fixing the problem. You are correct 1 person can't make a real difference if there are others who refuse to follow whatever plan they will come up with. It's going to take everyone working together and there's still a shot we can contain it. But it's going to take everyone working towards whatever plan scientists and biologists come up with. I have personal opinions on the matter but when it comes time I will at minimum follow whatever plan they outline because they undoubtedly have access to more information and knowledge than I do. I don't want future generations to not enjoy what I have been able to enjoy so far because I was selfish. Yeah hunting may be bad for a while but it's better than having CWD spread through the whole state and ruin everyone's hunting. Just my opinion, the whole you're only 1 person you can't do anything attitude won't get anyone anywhere.


I think you are confusing pecimism about the ability to curb the effects of this disease, with willingness, or lack there of, to follow the DNR recommendations. I share this belief that without a treatment, known environmental cause, vaccine or natural immunity/defense, the disease, hunters or some combination thereof will reduce the herd to the same level. Additionally, the disease will eventually spread to other areas where the same evironmental factor that lead to the disease exists. 

Hunters can correct these environmental factors first but we would have to narrow in on it first. If it is simple overpopulation, it is easy to correct assuming cooperation. I just don't think enough is known about the disease for us to stop it.

To reiterate, I will follow the recommendations but that doesn't mean I think the end population results will be different.


----------



## field-n-feathers

soggybtmboys said:


> Agreed, population reduction is absolutely critical.


Also agreed.


----------



## soggybtmboys

I think a very valid point that everybody is missing about habitat work, wildlife plantings, food plots on private land is this, that hasn't been talked about. Those of us that do these things, don't want deer staying in one spot on our properties. We want them up and moving around and spending time going from one area on our land to another area and cruising as much of our property as possible....especially during daylight hours. It is better for the habitat that they don't dwell, it afford greater opportunity to have a shot at animals or a specific animal, it affords other who may be hunting with us opportunity to make a kill, it also provides us with a more enjoyable experience watching critters come and go thru our properties. 

Concentrating deer on single spots on our properties, is exactly the opposite of our goals of doing habitat work across our properties we take care of.


----------



## FullQuiver

farmlegend said:


> I view the biggest enemy in this to be the _cie la vie_ attitude of tolerating the disease, so long as hunters continue to have a sufficient number of targets to hunt.


Possibly the one sentence with the most truth in this whole debate...


----------



## Waif

Here's one for you all.
Concentration of deer being a concern where prions exist and can be picked up, and food plots bait piles ect..
I am not stating food plots are a problem. Could an isolated one be? Sure but hypothetically from me.
The same hypothetical approach applied to all artificially created food sources and eliminating them will not avoid transfer of prions if they exist in numbers sufficient to distribute where deer interact.
A wet land with cattle has a spring ritual where deer from beyond locals arrive for two or three nights only each year. What ever is in that water is in deer and cattle alike and will travel beyond multiple landowners holdings.
How many like places exist?
Slowing transfer by attempting to keep deer from congregating is a noble concept but like human teens ,somewhere they will get together eventually. 
Yes spreading them out might help but what is in the soil is still there, if it is there and any amount of deer are subject to exposure.
Without being able to eliminate disease, the next step may be to reduce it's host's.
It has been a while since interacting with a state biologist but I have every faith that their decisions are what to wait for before taking any possible actions.
The great doe reductions of the past that left areas low in deer populations was rough.
We did what was suggested though and the remaining deer did not suffer worse health from it,besides the environmental effect was required for their well being in areas I saw the effects of low food availability.
Hard to believe any more but such did exist.
I did not take pictures to evidence the effect of too many deer on deer themselves, but have not seen such lack of food in decades outside of a yarding area.
Seems strange reading of areas with too many today yet they exist. Not counting the effect on habitat less than deer survival requirements.
Regardless, we wait for the state's studies and recommendations.
Dogging each others past and current practices changes little.

United we stand, divided we fall as the sum of our whole.
Should heavy reduction be needed we might need each others help till things level out.
We can get back to nitpickin after.


----------



## stickbow shooter

Well said Waif.


----------



## Groundsize

soggybtmboys said:


> He doesn't have any, he has only anecdotal observation that is jumping to conclusion based on what is peer reviewed and consensus about baiting and supplemental feeding, and attempting to apply it....erroneously, to wildlife planting and food plots.
> 
> What is out there, is a mountain of evidence, peer reviewed study, documentation, and credible consensus from the biological community on disease and the link to baiting and supplemental feeding. I have a flash drive full of it. Bio is spot on and echoes what professional wildlife managers say in the private and public sectors regarding habitat and deer management.
> 
> If one disagrees, please cite and post a consensus among the biological community in a peer reviewed document that addresses your assertion to support your position against wildlife plantings. If you cannot, you have no leg to stand on.


Agreed


----------



## Ranger Ray

farmlegend said:


> Some, predictably, quickly pooh-poohed this.
> 
> My farm is, to be frank about it, an excellent illustration of the point made here. It is darn near wall-to-wall deer food. Row crops, cutover woodlands, wetlands, and old fields. Seedlings, saplings, sprouts, forbs, brambles, and legumes. And a few wildlife food plots. Because of the abundance of food, deer feeding activities are NOT heavily concentrated, ANYWHERE.
> 
> I have never, not in 16 years of foodplotting, had a food plot wiped out by deer. I wouldn't know what it looked like. There's ALWAYS deer food in my food plots. And that's because the deer have a large variety of stuff to eat at a large variety of locations.
> 
> Unlike many, I can confidently plant a half acre patch of soybeans and, come autumn, I'll have a patch of ripened soybean pods. And that's because deer do not visit these plots every single day, because they can routinely fill their bellies elsewhere.
> 
> This discussion of foodplotting being a perilous activity is a truly immaterial distraction in the endeavor to combat CWD, obscurring the 900 pound gorilla in attacking this disease: the need to radically reduce deer numbers, even to the point of eliminating deer, in the affected areas. I view the biggest enemy in this to be the _cie la vie_ attitude of tolerating the disease, so long as hunters continue to have a sufficient number of targets to hunt.


We in the north are littered with little 1, 2 and 3 acre food plots. Many in the middle of areas that have very little other food sources. All food plots are not created equal. Your point is understandable in your scenario, not so much in the little food plots of the masses.



farmlegend said:


> I view the biggest enemy in this to be the _cie la vie_ attitude of tolerating the disease, so long as hunters continue to have a sufficient number of targets to hunt.


Maybe a social vote of "we the people" is in order. After all, we are the apex predator. Me, I am for following the scientific and biological decisions of our DNR biologists on this matter. I am sure social considerations will be taken into account within the scientific decision.


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## swampbuck

RMH said:


> If you took a square mile of unimproved habitat with 30 deer living in it, and a square mile of improved habitat with 30 deer living in it, does anybody feel that a deer is more susceptible to CWD on the improved lands?
> 
> Are deer being found sick in higher numbers in certain types of habitat?
> 
> I always thought CWD was a deer thing. They have the same behaviors in both habitats.



Maybe what happened in Wisconsin will answer your question...

(Quote)Then in February 2002, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) announced that chronic wasting disease (CWD) had been discovered in Town of Vermont in three hunter-killed deer from the November 2001 gun season. The deer were taken smack in the middle of these lands being managed for trophy bucks. A later sampling of 500 deer found another 15 with CWD, and in fact 11 of the 18 CWD deer were clustered right on or around these QDM lands.(quote)

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2007/09/deer-hunting-risk-heartland


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## Waif

stickbow shooter said:


> Well said Waif.


Thanks S.S..
It gets complex easy for me.
Deer eat dirt. I posted professional confirmation's source before.
As well as a previous farmer in a rich soil bank area describing a near pet fawns appetite for it to me.
Where prions are at a high level they are most likely to be picked up.
Some mammals eat poop. Some insects too, so transfers to other sites beyond deer kissing seems inevitable.
My biggest concern is the lifespan of disease in soil,at what level it's availability for transfer is; and how long before herd recovery would be reasonably safe IF no other introduction occurs.
Hunters not distributing it through reckless carcass handling as mentioned earlier we can do.
What if a submitted deer head tests positive?
The gut pile is likely already gone, between possums coyotes and birds or just degrading back into the soil. 
The bones meanwhile went where?


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## anonymous7242016

swampbuck said:


> Maybe what happened in Wisconsin will answer your question...
> 
> (Quote)Then in February 2002, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) announced that chronic wasting disease (CWD) had been discovered in Town of Vermont in three hunter-killed deer from the November 2001 gun season. The deer were taken smack in the middle of these lands being managed for trophy bucks. A later sampling of 500 deer found another 15 with CWD, and in fact 11 of the 18 CWD deer were clustered right on or around these QDM lands.(quote)
> 
> http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2007/09/deer-hunting-risk-heartland



No I don't think that article even relates to his question. 

His questions evolves around better habitat. 

Your article is based on supplemental feeding, minerals, food plots and the QDM practice of advancing age structure. 

And the article seems to lean towards the use of the cattle feed they used for deer containing multiple animal bi products as the possible vector of where the cwd came from. 

Better habitat is not always connected to QDM practices and your article stated nothing of habitat improvements beyond food plots.


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## soggybtmboys

swampbuck said:


> Maybe what happened in Wisconsin will answer your question...
> 
> (Quote)Then in February 2002, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) announced that chronic wasting disease (CWD) had been discovered in Town of Vermont in three hunter-killed deer from the November 2001 gun season. The deer were taken smack in the middle of these lands being managed for trophy bucks. A later sampling of 500 deer found another 15 with CWD, and in fact 11 of the 18 CWD deer were clustered right on or around these QDM lands.(quote)
> 
> http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2007/09/deer-hunting-risk-heartland



Here, I'll help you out. You wouldn't want to be labeled as disingenuous. 

There is still very little known about how chronic wasting disease is transmitted, but one possible scenario (as yet unproven), and a terrible irony, is that these dedicated hunters may have inadvertently introduced the disease into Wisconsin's deer herd through contaminated feed used during their quest to grow trophy bucks. The concern is that some of the feed may have contained protein and bonemeal from rendered animals infected with CWD-like diseases that got passed on to the deer. Consider the following:


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## U of M Fan

Waif said:


> Here's one for you all.
> Concentration of deer being a concern where prions exist and can be picked up, and food plots bait piles ect..
> I am not stating food plots are a problem. Could an isolated one be? Sure but hypothetically from me.
> The same hypothetical approach applied to all artificially created food sources and eliminating them will not avoid transfer of prions if they exist in numbers sufficient to distribute where deer interact.
> A wet land with cattle has a spring ritual where deer from beyond locals arrive for two or three nights only each year. What ever is in that water is in deer and cattle alike and will travel beyond multiple landowners holdings.
> How many like places exist?
> Slowing transfer by attempting to keep deer from congregating is a noble concept but like human teens ,somewhere they will get together eventually.
> Yes spreading them out might help but what is in the soil is still there, if it is there and any amount of deer are subject to exposure.
> Without being able to eliminate disease, the next step may be to reduce it's host's.
> It has been a while since interacting with a state biologist but I have every faith that their decisions are what to wait for before taking any possible actions.
> The great doe reductions of the past that left areas low in deer populations was rough.
> We did what was suggested though and the remaining deer did not suffer worse health from it,besides the environmental effect was required for their well being in areas I saw the effects of low food availability.
> Hard to believe any more but such did exist.
> I did not take pictures to evidence the effect of too many deer on deer themselves, but have not seen such lack of food in decades outside of a yarding area.
> Seems strange reading of areas with too many today yet they exist. Not counting the effect on habitat less than deer survival requirements.
> Regardless, we wait for the state's studies and recommendations.
> Dogging each others past and current practices changes little.
> 
> United we stand, divided we fall as the sum of our whole.
> Should heavy reduction be needed we might need each others help till things level out.
> We can get back to nitpickin after.



Well said. Unfortunately there are to many hard headed know it alls on here.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## Alan Michaels

Young male deer disperse. 

Then there is the rut, deer don't give a hill of beans about your property line.

Deer get spooked, neighbor working, hunting, dogs...etc. How long will they stay? Will they eat in your plots while there? Visit your mineral licks? Visit scrapes?

Which do deer prefer? Property with habitat improvements or property that's been left alone and is natural?


How are you going to stop all that?


If I had my druthers, I would rather have natural property then the best well groomed hunting land if CWD was found near me.


I understand the investment that you all have made but if CWD gets to your property, it probably isn't leaving.


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## Alan Michaels

Nocturnal Ghost said:


> You people are half nuts..
> 
> Fight all you want about APR's vs traditional, baiting vs food plots but the reality is where this deer was found was in town, where there is no hunting!
> 
> So APR's or QDMA did not caused this. I work in this area and the locals do feed the deer a lot, some do it for viewing others do it thinking it will save their landscaping.
> 
> More then likely these deer have a smaller core area then the average "wild" deer because food is readily available and pressure from humans is tolerated.
> 
> You can kill every sparky and mature buck in that general area and all you are going to do is make the does travel farther out of their core area to breed or the bucks (any age) on the outside will travel farther inward to breed these does.
> 
> The whole deer herd in this area needs to be reduced not just a gender or age class.


Only half?

I agree with you.
But we need to get deer densities to the lowest acceptable amount everywhere.

And I want to know just where the hello this one came from.


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## Joe Archer

Nocturnal Ghost said:


> You people are half nuts..
> 
> Fight all you want about APR's vs traditional, baiting vs food plots but the reality is where this deer was found was in town, where there is no hunting!
> 
> So APR's or QDMA did not caused this. I work in this area and the locals do feed the deer a lot, some do it for viewing others do it thinking it will save their landscaping.
> 
> More then likely these deer have a smaller core area then the average "wild" deer because food is readily available and pressure from humans is tolerated.
> 
> You can kill every sparky and mature buck in that general area and all you are going to do is make the does travel farther out of their core area to breed or the bucks (any age) on the outside will travel farther inward to breed these does.
> 
> The whole deer herd in this area needs to be reduced not just a gender or age class.


The good news - some very educated people will be involved in the decision making process for dealing with CWD and population management in Michigan. 
The bad news? *Some people are just plain educated beyond their intelligence*.  
<----<<<


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## bioactive

FullQuiver said:


> Bio, There are plenty of us who would like to get it done, get me some access and I'll show you how I role when I am given half a chance.... Hope you have access to a reefer truck for the carcasses..... You'll need it...


I have absolutely no need of help harvesting does on my property. On the other hand, if you go to just one single family in my home neighborhood, there are three patriarchs of farm families, the Dad and two sons, each of whom hold large acreage, and each of which will tell hunters their properties are bucks only. If the DNR were to begin aggressive antlerless policy in the area, it would strengthen their resolve. They are the problem. 

You getting on my property would make absolutely no difference because I will already be going to the extreme to meet DNR goals. It is not QDM properties that you need to get on, it is the non-QDM properties (99% of the land mass), and I can guarantee you these particular neighbors will not let you on to shoot does. 

And I can also tell you that in spite of my food plots, these three neighbors produce about 90% of the food in the neighborhood, and they house most of the resident doe families in the neighborhood. It is complete nonsense to think my little food plots concentrate all the deer in the neighborhood.

All three of these families had standing corn on their properties this year because the same farmer who plants all three properties was unable to get to the neighborhood, so if you wanted to see a massive collection of deer, they lived out the winter in extremely high density in those corn fields, not in my food plots.


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## stickbow shooter

Luv2hunteup said:


> I disagree with free tags in this zone or any other zone for that matter. I would support hunters who kill a deer in the hot zone should receive a refund of their license fee plus be allowed to purchase another tag when they bring the deer into the DNR's testing dumpster.


Very few are going to want to handle a diseased laden animal.


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## bioactive

Joe Archer said:


> The good news - some very educated people will be involved in the decision making process for dealing with CWD and population management in Michigan.
> The bad news? *Some people are just plain educated beyond their intelligence*.
> <----<<<


You mean like the ones in the TB zone, who, even though the DNR encourages them to shoot antlerless deer, refuse to do so because they think they know better than the DNR does?


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## Joe Archer

stickbow shooter said:


> Very few are going to want to handle a diseased laden animal.


The prevalence in the core area right now is most likely not going to exceed 1 - 2%. 99 or so out of 100 deer will probably be negative. It is a good time to fill freezers of deer that have been tested.. 
I phoned my farmer friend in the Lansing area and asked him to please count me in again this year when he requests crop damage permits from DNR...
<----<<<


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## johnhunter

Joe Archer said:


> Please clarify ... are you planning to help reduce the herd on your property (if CWD takes the logical course East and South) before or after you sell?
> I can't say I blame you though if you do bail. Land value in the NeLP has taken a huge hit. Lots on either side of me have been on the market for 5 years now. The economical hit in the SeLP could be devestating....
> <----<<<


He seldom hunts that particular property. Managing more than one hunting property is cumbersome. Speaking for myself, I don't have time to manage one hunting property, let alone more than one.


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## bioactive

stickbow shooter said:


> And I turn the younger bucks leave and take the disease with them. They ALL need to be managed bucks and does. Are you going to kill any younger bucks ? Probably not so who is part of the problem.


If the DNR asked me to help completely decimate the herd, I would do my part. But I would do so by hammering does. Shooting bucks does virtually nothing to control deer populations. Having the legal opportunity to shoot bucks reduces population control because antler crazed hunters pass does to get to those bucks. It is counter-productive to hunt for bucks in a region where the population needs to be reduced. Shooting does is the best way to reduce the buck population.


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## mbrewer

We'll do the right thing eventually but only after we've tried everything else first.


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## Joe Archer

bioactive said:


> You mean like the ones in the TB zone, who, even though the DNR encourages them to shoot antlerless deer, refuse to do so because they think they know better than the DNR does?


DNR also stated that some areas are under population goals and they advise hunters to target deer accordingly - even in the NeLP. 
Me? I got to see a TOTAL of three doe last year in the area that I hunt... 
I didn't pass on doe - just didn't see 'em. 
Still, I hope that others passed on doe so that the population can rebound to a huntable resource. 
In my case, passing would be the right thing to do..
Bio - you didn't think that I was implying that *YOU are just plain educated beyond your intelligence* ... did you? :lol::lol::lol:
<----<<<


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## bioactive

Joe Archer said:


> Please clarify ... are you planning to help reduce the herd on your property (if CWD takes the logical course East and South) before or after you sell?
> I can't say I blame you though if you do bail. Land value in the NeLP has taken a huge hit. Lots on either side of me have been on the market for 5 years now. The economical hit in the SeLP could be devestating....
> <----<<<


May God forgive you for your venom Joe.

I continue to be astounded that Steve allows you to say stuff like this.

If you need to know, I decided to sell my property prior to hearing about the CWD outbreak, and I am selling it as part of a divorce settlement.

Shame on you.


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## Nocturnal Ghost

stickbow shooter said:


> I just seen an ad for land up for sale Ingham county. 398 acres for $1,780,000. I would imagine that price is going to be dropping fast. It would suck if you were hoping on selling .


Believe it or not most land in SLP is based on the commodity prices and not on deer numbers.

Hunting is a hobby down here, not a necessity to eat. That's one of the reasons why we have a lot of deer.


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## Alan Michaels

mbrewer said:


> We'll do the right thing eventually but only after we've tried everything else first.


You mean our grandchildren will do the right thing? Right now we cant agree on anything.
Except Bio and I finally agreed on something, SELL THAT HUNTING LAND FAST WHILE THE SELLINGS GOOD.


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## beer and nuts

Ironic...on two fronts.


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## HUBBHUNTER

bioactive said:


> May God forgive you for your venom Joe.
> 
> I continue to be astounded that Steve allows you to say stuff like this.
> 
> If you need to know, I decided to sell my property prior to hearing about the CWD outbreak, and I am selling it as part of a divorce settlement.
> 
> Shame on you.


Sorry to hear that, Bio. It did occur to me that when selling a property such as you're own, one doesn't come to that decision over night.


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## bioactive

stickbow shooter said:


> I just seen an ad for land up for sale Ingham county. 398 acres for $1,780,000. I would imagine that price is going to be dropping fast. It would suck if you were hoping on selling .


If you think that recreational activities set vacant land prices you need to do a little research. My property I am in the process of selling will mainly be valued based on its agricultural value, not on its recreational value. 

Even if someone buys it solely for recreational purposes, they will have to pay a pretty penny because they will be competing with agricultural buyers, comparables for which will set the price. 

In my opinion, if you waved a magic wand and eliminated the entire deer herd in the SLP, it would have little impact on land prices. The recreational culture would shift to pheasant hunting, turkey hunting, small game hunting, waterfowl hunting, and other activities, and the land prices would be set based mainly on agriculture.


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## wintrrun

bioactive said:


> The QDM guys are not the problem. The way we do things is the solution to the problem. Every single QDM landowner I know would absolutely hammer their doe population if asked to do so by the DNR. Traditional hunters are the problem, and traditional hunters are the ones lined up in this thread pointing fingers at the guys who are actually actively engaged and willing to harvest does.


Everybody Look!
It's a finger pointing- hunter dividing-fear monger playing the were better than you card.
No doubt an unbiased dnr survey should be performed before the holy personal bio-opinion thrown down from his thrown of elitist horse crap even be given nary a thought.:evilsmile


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## bioactive

HUBBHUNTER said:


> Sorry to hear that, Bio. It did occur to me that when selling a property such as you're own, one doesn't come to that decision over night.


Thanks HUBB.

It was a long and painful process to make the decision. And that decision had nothing whatsoever to do with a single sick animal several counties away.


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## U of M Fan

stickbow shooter said:


> And I turn the younger bucks leave and take the disease with them. They ALL need to be managed bucks and does. Are you going to kill any younger bucks ? Probably not so who is part of the problem.



Agreed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## johnhunter

wintrrun said:


> Everybody Look!
> It's a finger pointing- hunter dividing-fear monger playing the were better than you card.
> No doubt an unbiased dnr survey should be performed before the holy personal bio-opinion thrown down from his thrown of elitist horse crap even be given nary a thought.:evilsmile


Be sure to take a screenshot of this gem while you can.


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## wintrrun

soggybtmboys said:


> The landfill study had a practical application talking about Quartz soils, sand/mineral soils. A great deal of hunting land is of this type of soil composition right? If you have taken any number of soil samples, this is evident and applicable thought. The study went into talk about how prions can move about in this substrate, how lime may destroy it in the soil type, how putting it deeper into the soil column may be a benefit.
> 
> You don't have to agree and that's fine, but I believe it is food for thought. I would also ask that if you want to converse/parse with me further...refrain from the colorful adjectives...this is an adult conversation about a serious matter most of us adults are concerned about.
> 
> Jim, I will look at what you have posted up. I have been looking for opposing positions that are credible and have not had any luck finding any. I'll comment on those later when I'm on a desktop and not a phone.



I read the study.
It showed nothing conclusive or definitive but it was food for thought.
Knowing full well what most food plots are being tilled with and knowing that in certain soils prions can move up and down in the substrate perhaps a study such as this may shed light to my concern that most foodplotters will not be able to put prions out of reach.
Food for thought. : http://transmissiblespongiformencep...5/05/grass-plants-bind-retain-uptake-and.html


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## wintrrun

farmlegend said:


> You may not have noticed, but the CZ in in southern Michigan. Hunters there already target every yearling buck they see. No need to change anything except to go to war on the does.


Could you please post the annual buck harvest numbers for the past 5 years for Meridan Township or is this another attempt at the all knowing, holier than now in my opinion syndrome being exhibited?
Just factual numbers for that area.
Thanks in advance.


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## CHASINEYES

stickbow shooter said:


> And I turn the younger bucks leave and take the disease with them. They ALL need to be managed bucks and does. Are you going to kill any younger bucks ? Probably not so who is part of the problem.


You kill them all and without prejudice to sex. Buttons, yearling bucks and does. They need to be hunted and shot like rabbits. Friends and neighbors in the infected area should be doing mid-day deer drives, no sanctuaries.


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## johnhunter

Note to the unnamed ignorant (factual here, not pejorative, unlike the epithet "elitist"): the Michigan Deer Harvest Survey Reports have not yet begun to report harvest totals at the township level. FYI


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## field-n-feathers

Alan Michaels said:


> Sorry
> It was only one night, and she wasn't that good.


Care to explain this comment?


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## anonymous7242016

beer and nuts said:


> Why? Because Co-ops tend to create over-sized herds on small sections of lands and most create small food plots that are planted to create feed almost 365 days a year, I said almost....but co-ops owners tend to plant food plost for spring, summer and late seasons or mix planting on a variety of plants that are ripe at different times of the year.
> 
> Unlike ag land where it is harvested, remain bare ground till planting season and only then when a corn or bean field is ripe for eating deer does it create feeding opportunities, plus the vast size of ag fields tend to spread out the feed more so than much small food plots.
> 
> Let the food plot czars let loose on this, but its true.
> 
> Having a bait ban in an area like this is useless and makes little sense, but its part of the plan that looks good.



You are right wint................here is where it started. Actually it started on his first post but this one really clarified it.



wintrrun said:


> As most have expected a side started playing games as usual.
> Thanks for the valuable info.:gaga:


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## wintrrun

farmlegend said:


> Note to the unnamed ignorant (factual here, not pejorative, unlike the epithet "elitist"): the Michigan Deer Harvest Survey Reports have not yet begun to report harvest totals at the township level. FYI


Ignorant?
I am not the one running around assuming meridian Twp hunters are sparky killers with no basis.
Want another gem?
Perhaps this sites mods have grown keen to the fact the only reason you guys stick around and post in the hopes to educate lurkers was just blowing smoke up an ass crack.
Feel free to take a screenshot, Mr.Legend.:lol:


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## wintrrun

bucksnbows said:


> You are right wint................here is where it started. Actually it started on his first post but this one really clarified it.


Egad!
This leeds me to believe because of thin skin syndrome exhibited that paper cuts will most likely result in high mortality rates in the side that took offense..
Feel free to take a screenshot.


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