# How to find the center of a ceiling?



## kroppe

Hi guys, 

I am putting in a ceiling fan in a bedroom, and want to put it in the center of the ceiling. How do I find the center point? I want to drill a hole in the center of the ceiling, so I can go up in the attic and find the hole, so I can secure the ceiling electrical box. 

I would appreciate hearing about the "new school" way (i.e. laser, etc.) and also the old school way (assuming there is one). 

Thanks.


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## Big Frank 25

Run a string Dia. from corner to corner. Do this in both directions, X marks the spot. Drill hole, mark with a wire of sorts. Hit the attic.


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## ih772

Use a stud finder before you drill the hole, sometimes the bottom of the truss is in the way.


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## Big Reds

Measure from wall to wall divide by two........ CENTER! lol


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## jpollman

The info above is correct. I'd measure from each set of walls and divide by two to find the center. That's the easy part. 

Is there no fixture in the room currently? Normally there would be at least a light fixture in the ceiling already. If not, you have some wiring to do. When you do it, install a THREE wire cable from the switch to the box! This way you can control the fan separately from the light (if one is installed). Even if you don't have a light kit installed, you may decide you want one down the road some time. If you do, then you're all set.

If you do have wiring to do, you're more than likely going to have some drywall work to do anyway. Since you'll be doing drywall anyway, you can avoid going up into the attic. You could just cut out an access between the two joists on either side of the box you're installing. Then install the box and wiring. Then you and reinstall the drywall, finish, paint, and you'll be all set. 

Good luck!

John


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## DIY4life11

He is correct that there will most likely be some drywall work to do. However, I just installed some recessed lighting in a room with NO attic space, and wished there was. If there is attic access, I would strongly suggest doing that instead of cutting the ceiling. Drywall wasn't for me!


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## kroppe

Thanks guys. I like the "x with a string" method and also a laser. I will be by myself, so any method described sort of needs a helper. I'll figure something out. 

I plan to use a drywall circle cutter to cut the hole in the ceiling. For a box, I was going to use a ceiling box with an extendable hanger bar. The rafters are on 24" centers, and I do have relatively easy (hot!) attic access. I'm not going to touch anymore drywall than needed, because if I get into drywall, I'm getting into drywall mud, and paint, etc. Sounds like pulling a yarn out of a sweater. 

I was going to wire power from an existing switch, and either use a two switch single gang box (horizontal switches one stacked on top of the other), or use one of the new fangled two-rocker or three-rocker switches that fit in a single gang box. I saw these at Lowe's today - pretty awesome looking. I don't have any intention of cutting the drywall to install a two gang switch box. I have had nightmare experiences with this in my own house, where there was only enough room between studs to fit a single wide box. 

So: 
1. Measure and mark center on ceiling. Push a wire through the mark and find it in the attic to be sure there are no obstructions.
2. Cut the round hole in the ceiling drywall with a circle cutter.
3. Install ceiling box by securing extendable bars to truss beams.
4. Run power to ceiling box from switch (haven't totally figured this out yet).
5. Install fan fixture.
6. Check for proper operation.
7. Clean up.
8. Ice cold Coca Cola. 

See any problems with this?


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## ih772

kroppe said:


> Thanks guys. I like the "x with a string" method and also a laser. I will be by myself, so any method described sort of needs a helper. I'll figure something out.
> 
> I plan to use a drywall circle cutter to cut the hole in the ceiling. For a box, I was going to use a ceiling box with an extendable hanger bar. The rafters are on 24" centers, and I do have relatively easy (hot!) attic access. I'm not going to touch anymore drywall than needed, because if I get into drywall, I'm getting into drywall mud, and paint, etc. Sounds like pulling a yarn out of a sweater.
> 
> I was going to wire power from an existing switch, and either use a two switch single gang box (horizontal switches one stacked on top of the other), or use one of the new fangled two-rocker or three-rocker switches that fit in a single gang box. I saw these at Lowe's today - pretty awesome looking. I don't have any intention of cutting the drywall to install a two gang switch box. I have had nightmare experiences with this in my own house, where there was only enough room between studs to fit a single wide box.
> 
> So:
> 1. Measure and mark center on ceiling. Push a wire through the mark and find it in the attic to be sure there are no obstructions.
> 2. Cut the round hole in the ceiling drywall with a circle cutter.
> 3. Install ceiling box by securing extendable bars to truss beams.
> 4. Run power to ceiling box from switch (haven't totally figured this out yet).
> 5. Install fan fixture.
> 6. Check for proper operation.
> 7. Clean up.
> 8. Ice cold Coca Cola.
> 
> See any problems with this?


Use 14-3 wire. Find out if power is actually in the switch box on the wall instead of it being just a switch leg. Does the switch in the wall control a box in the ceiling or does it switch half of a receptacle on the wall?


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## kroppe

Thanks, good question on the switch. I know it switches a wall outlet, but I haven't pulled the switch out of the box to see what's in there. 

Should I use the ceiling box with a metal hanger bar, or should I put some 2x4 framing/blocking in between the rafters to secure the box to? The metal hanger bar method was suggested by the guy at Lowe's so I wanted to double check.


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## jpollman

ih772 said:


> Use 14-3 wire. Find out if power is actually in the switch box on the wall instead of it being just a switch leg. Does the switch in the wall control a box in the ceiling or does it switch half of a receptacle on the wall?


That's the big question. About a month ago I got a call from a previous customer that I've worked for several times. He was having problems with a ceiling fan in his bedroom. He tried to take it down and reinstall it. When he did, he threw the switch and blew a breaker. It was Sunday evening and in a real fix. He only lives about a half mile away so I told him that I'd grab my meter and tool box and come over to see if I could help him out. 

I got there and discovered that the power was going out to the switch from the box and not up to the box from the switch. That breaker fed the bedroom, hallway, and bathroom. The box was a mess because he'd disconnected all of the wires and didn't have a clue as to which one went where. Well I figured out which ones were the loads and which was the line and I got it straightened out. It only took me about a half hour but I got the lights back on for him. 

It sounds like you do have some wiring to do so you are going to have at least a little bit of drywall repair to do. Have fun with that, it's not really hard but can be a pain if you're not used to it. I've gotten used to doing drywall repairs and it's not too big of a deal. But I'm a glutton for punishment. :lol:

Good luck!

John


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## jpollman

kroppe said:


> Thanks, good question on the switch. I know it switches a wall outlet, but I haven't pulled the switch out of the box to see what's in there.
> 
> Should I use the ceiling box with a metal hanger bar, or should I put some 2x4 framing/blocking in between the rafters to secure the box to? The metal hanger bar method was suggested by the guy at Lowe's so I wanted to double check.


BJ,
we were typing at the same time. They make a fan hanger box that's pretty slick. You can install it through a small 4" hole you cut in the ceiling. It is an extendable bar that has a screw in fitting on each side. You cut the hole and then push the bar up into the ceiling through the hole. There's a bracket on each end with teeth that get pushed into the ceiling joist. The brackets also act as a height gauge. Just set the thing above the hole and the brackets set on top of the drywall. Then you just turn the center section and the screws expand and lock into the joists. You can turn it by hand for the most part and then finish up with a wrench to snug it up. Once the bar is in place, you bring the wire through the hole and into the box. The box then gets pushed up into the hole and attaches to the bar you installed. I've done a couple of these and they work pretty well.


John


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## WoW

Unless you plan on running surface wire (an ugly option) get up in the attic and find where a junction box is so that you can tap into a hot wire. Then you can drop a wire through the wall on the switch (put in a remodel box---piece of cake and no need to trash a bunch of drywall to do it) and then run wire fan mounting box. 

Be sure and use one that adequately supports the fan.

Don't get too excited about mudding around the ceiling box because you can always get a medallion to put on the ceiling before the fan installation to dress it up and cover any unsightly areas that you may have created on the ceiling.

If you don't want to mess with fishing wire for a switch, just run a hot wire from a junction box (or create one) in the attic to your fan and then use the controls on the fan or get a remote ceiling fan negating the need for a switch on the wall.


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## ih772

kroppe said:


> Thanks, good question on the switch. I know it switches a wall outlet, but I haven't pulled the switch out of the box to see what's in there.
> 
> Should I use the ceiling box with a metal hanger bar, or should I put some 2x4 framing/blocking in between the rafters to secure the box to? The metal hanger bar method was suggested by the guy at Lowe's so I wanted to double check.


You can do either one, I usually use the metal bar when a room has already been drywalled. If you decide to use the bar, make sure that the box will fit where you want it to go. If the rafter is within an inch or two of the edge of the hole in the drywall, it (the metal box) might not slide over far enough before hitting the mounting hardware on the bar. It depends on the manufacturer of the hangar bar.


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## Girtski

ih772 said:


> Use 14-3 wire. Find out if power is actually in the switch box on the wall instead of it being just a switch leg. Does the switch in the wall control a box in the ceiling or does it switch half of a receptacle on the wall?


By far, I'm no electrician, but my inspector insisted that I use 12 gauge for any circuit that had an electric motor. Not wanting to split hair, I put 12-2 on my exhaust fans (which were also required) in my laundry room and 3 bathrooms. I used 12-3 for all my ceiling fans (7 in my house). I doubt you'll be pulling a permit and getting an inspection, but I always wondered what the reasoning was for the 12 guage wire on motorized applications? Anybody?


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## ggrybas

Girtski said:


> By far, I'm no electrician, but my inspector insisted that I use 12 gauge for any circuit that had an electric motor. Not wanting to split hair, I put 12-2 on my exhaust fans (which were also required) in my laundry room and 3 bathrooms. I used 12-3 for all my ceiling fans (7 in my house). I doubt you'll be pulling a permit and getting an inspection, but I always wondered what the reasoning was for the 12 guage wire on motorized applications? Anybody?


According to the National Electrical Code, I see no reason for 12 wire in ceiling fans. However, the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) has the final say.(Your inspector). Laundry rooms and bathrooms get 12 wire because there is usually a higher ampacity demand in those areas.


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## jakeo

ggrybas said:


> According to the National Electrical Code, I see no reason for 12 wire in ceiling fans. However, the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) has the final say.(Your inspector). Laundry rooms and bathrooms get 12 wire because there is usually a higher ampacity demand in those areas.


I had one in a lil town that told the home owner to have his electrician(me) pull out ALL the #14 because its only good for lamp cord. I called, gave him my lic. number and he said that was the only way I was getting inspection. I asked for a state inspector and got it done. I will never show my face there again...LOL
Some guys are just power hungry.


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## wirenut

ggrybas said:


> According to the National Electrical Code, I see no reason for 12 wire in ceiling fans. However, the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) has the final say.(Your inspector). Laundry rooms and bathrooms get 12 wire because there is usually a higher ampacity demand in those areas.


 Listen to my IBEW brother. As a Local #58 member I agree, but I believe you may have misunderstood your inspector. If you are adding a fan (under a full load of 12 amps) to a 15 amp circut, a size 14 awg is fine. Usually you will find most residential lighting circuts are 15 amp. ( but be sure you know) I recently installed a new ceiling fan in the owner of my company's condo. I was glad I did it because of all the previous home owners wiring methods, what a mess. No junction boxes, wire nuts staples, connectors etc... Do it safe or hire a licensed electrician! IBEW LOCAL 58 Journeyman.


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## ace of all

Girtski said:


> By far, I'm no electrician, but my inspector insisted that I use 12 gauge for any circuit that had an electric motor. Not wanting to split hair, I put 12-2 on my exhaust fans (which were also required) in my laundry room and 3 bathrooms. I used 12-3 for all my ceiling fans (7 in my house). I doubt you'll be pulling a permit and getting an inspection, but I always wondered what the reasoning was for the 12 guage wire on motorized applications? Anybody?


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## ace of all

NEVER use different gauges of wire that you think is necessary. Wire gauge is matched with the panel breaker size. 12 gauge wire is used with 20 amp breakers. 14 gauge wire is used with 15 amp breakers. Improper use of wire gauges can result in fires. For example: Using 14 gauge wire on a 20 amp circuit will create a fire instead of tripping when overloaded.


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## ace of all

14 gauge wire on a 15 amp circuit is adequate for most residential ceiling fans. If there is a concern about overloading when tying into an existing circuit, check the load at the electrical panel with an amp probe. Licensed New York Electrician


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## ace of all

Girtski said:


> By far, I'm no electrician, but my inspector insisted that I use 12 gauge for any circuit that had an electric motor. Not wanting to split hair, I put 12-2 on my exhaust fans (which were also required) in my laundry room and 3 bathrooms. I used 12-3 for all my ceiling fans (7 in my house). I doubt you'll be pulling a permit and getting an inspection, but I always wondered what the reasoning was for the 12 guage wire on motorized applications? Anybody?


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## Nostromo

Welcome to the forum.


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## ace of all

Must look at the starting amp load on any motor to determine the breaker size thus the wire gauge. 15 amp breakers with 14 gauge wire is adequate for most residential ceiling fans.


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## ace of all

Nostromo said:


> Welcome to the forum.


Thank you


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## d_rek

jpollman said:


> The info above is correct. I'd measure from each set of walls and divide by two to find the center. That's the easy part.
> 
> Is there no fixture in the room currently? Normally there would be at least a light fixture in the ceiling already. If not, you have some wiring to do. When you do it, install a THREE wire cable from the switch to the box! This way you can control the fan separately from the light (if one is installed). Even if you don't have a light kit installed, you may decide you want one down the road some time. If you do, then you're all set.
> 
> If you do have wiring to do, you're more than likely going to have some drywall work to do anyway. Since you'll be doing drywall anyway, you can avoid going up into the attic. You could just cut out an access between the two joists on either side of the box you're installing. Then install the box and wiring. Then you and reinstall the drywall, finish, paint, and you'll be all set.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> John


My BIL and I fished 3-wire to 3 bedrooms at my last house because NONE had cieling fixtures! What a PIA!!! Fishing wire behind drywall, over joists, or through insulation SUCKS!

When our new house was built I had the builder put 3-wire to every fixture and also do heavy boxes in every bedroom so when I want to put a ceiling fan in I can easily do so. Already did one bedroom and it was easy as pie.


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## brushbuster

d_rek said:


> My BIL and I fished 3-wire to 3 bedrooms at my last house because NONE had cieling fixtures! What a PIA!!! Fishing wire behind drywall, over joists, or through insulation SUCKS!
> 
> When our new house was built I had the builder put 3-wire to every fixture and also do heavy boxes in every bedroom so when I want to put a ceiling fan in I can easily do so. Already did one bedroom and it was easy as pie.


Can you show me a pic of a "heavy" box?


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## d_rek

brushbuster said:


> Can you show me a pic of a "heavy" box?


https://www.homedepot.com/p/15-5-cu...ction-Ceiling-Fan-Saf-T-Box-0105000/204845564

My electrician BIL always called them heavy boxes. Just have to be rated to handle the weight of a ceiling fan versus a plastic wire box.


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