# Fall Permits - Preference Point System?



## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

AMEN, Sib! 

The last thing we need as hunters is to argue with each other... stay united we have other enemies who believe all our tactics are wrong. I am sorry to those who did not get a tag. I am lucky, I get apply for privet only in my area and never have a problem in the fall. I would not mind if they did make a point system at all, but I do not see it happening.... they decided it was waaaaay to expensive to do it for ELK.... and that is where the point system is realy needed!!!!


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Hunting with a dog in the fall has been legal ever since Michigan began fall turkey hunting...which was back in the mid-80's. It's been a fall hunting tradition for turkeys in other states since the 1600's, when Pocahontas brought John Smith his first turkey. 

I know what you're saying, but you're nickpicking when you differentiate woodcock and grouse, and I think you know it...but do I shoot rabbits or squirrels when I'm bird hunting? No, primarily because it's bad for the dog to learn that rabbits and squirrels are also targets and also because different clothing is usually required, but also because I'm there to bird hunt, not squirrel hunt. 

What I'm talking about is hunting fall turkeys in the traditionally accepted manner, which is not a good idea if you're bow hunting for deer. And I'm talking about giving the birds the respect they deserve, instead of being considered incidental targets. We've all worked too hard to make the wild turkey the tremendous natural resource it is to treat them that way. 

As for hunters standing unified, yes, we need to, especially on issues like our rights to dove hunting and bear hunting, and I think we do...but as the QDM issue so vividly has shown us all, not everyone is ever going to agree on how we should do it...and it's unreasonable to think that we ever could...

Besides if we did, these message boards would go out of business in a heartbeat... :lol:


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> I wasn't talking about what IS legal...I was talking about maybe what SHOULD be legal...


That sounds like the same argument some of us have been using for QDM.


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

THE DNR IS A JOKE ON TURKEY AND DEER IN THE ALCONA AREA. see come october 9th i will see 300 to 400 diffrent turkeys in a day and might be lucky if i see one deer. give us unlimited doe permits for thousand of hunters and early doe season for private property. but what about the over population of turkey? should a private property owner have the right to go out in the fall and manage the flock of turkey? not many turkey hunters around me and its all private. four of us applied for our place and not one of us drew a permit. guess if we have a winter this year WE WILL HAVE A MAGER WINTER KILL OF THIS BELOVED BIRD. WON'T LET ME TAKE A HEN IN THE SPRING, AND GIVE ME NO PERMIT FOR THE FALL THE POPULATION WILL AND HAS OVER TAKEN WHAT THE LAND CAN PROVIDE. let private property owners be an automatic tag in the fall just like the spring


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Alcona County has a fall turkey season this year for the first time in years, due to low populations for the past few years after a major crash in populations, according to the DNR, who get their counts from the people who feed them...so those are pretty accurate counts. 

Believe me, if the DNR thought there were too many turkeys in Alcona County, they'd up the permits. There's a whole lot of people there they have to listen to when they complain, like you. One guy, who frequents this board, was calling the DNR on a regular basis for a while there, I was told by the DNR wildlife bio for that area. Always complaining about the same area-his hunting area. But he really didn't know what was going on throughout the county, and that's what the DNR has to look at-not just your front yard. 

There is one really good rule of scientific wildlife management that the DNR tends to follow up here-that in many areas of northern MI, where we get hard winters and there may or may not be any food at all for wild turkeys, that if you're going to err, err on the conservative side. Hit them too hard with fall permits, have a bad winter, a spring hunt that's almost unlimited for gobblers, and another year of poor hatches, and it's very easy to end up with almost no turkeys at all. 

And what you're seeing in some parts of Alcona is not the case all over the county-in some parts of the county, primarily on the state and federal lands, there's almost no turkeys at all. And the DNR isn't looking at just your area-they're looking at the square mileage of the whole county, and how many birds there are in the WHOLE county...

There's one more basic difference between the wild turkeys and the deer in Alcona County-wild turkeys don't get Bovine TB, which is why there are so many antlerless permits in Alcona County. 

and the tag in the spring is not automatic-you have to apply...do you turkey hunt? If you're concerned there's too many turkeys in Alcona County, then get out there and apply for a tag next spring.


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

well linda people make mistake and the dnr has done so. guess what i hunt that piece of property you are talking about and that gent is my father. and if you thinks all his pics of theses turkey where just a joke..lol... i can tell ya thats far from the truth. a hard winter in our are will result in a major die off. the area can not support the numbers we have. if they were so worried about the state land than why not issue out private land permit as they due in other parts of the state. you ever flush turkey like pheasant? bet not. well we do at this place and can do it all year long. was out thier last weekend and walk right up to them they really have no fear of us to many non hunters in this area feeding them and the other guys are after deer only. i am worried about the population of the turkey but it needs to be kept in check on private land without the concern of state land numbers. just like the early doe season is for private land and the unlimited doe tag are for PRIVATE LAND ONLY. SO WHY NOT PRIVATE LAND TURKEY. when i took my bird this spring we had 15 birds there and had a hell of a time getting a shot off for to many heads popping up at a time. even after the shoot the others either stood thier ground 25 feet in front of us or attack the down bird. and these 15 were were not included in all the other toms seen this spring. sorry to rave but a blind man could see the problem in this area you don't worry about hitting deer anymore the problem now is hitting sevral turkeys at a time or being stopped on the road for 15 minutes to let them cross. are past realitives would have loved to see the birds we have. they would of ate well.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Check with your neighbors, they're probably feeding them, which is why you're seeing so many at a time. And this spring the flocks were still in winter groups until June in many areas-it was a miserable spring. The turkeys stay on private lands when adequate nourishment is not available on the public land-if the states, feds, or various conservation groups in the area could do more to improve the habitat on the public lands, there'd be more birds on the public lands. 

The area can support as many turkeys as your neighbors want to feed, and unless they are also feeding the deer, it won't impact the deer. 

What type of bird did you shoot this spring, a mature gobbler, or a jake? Jakes often travel in packs, my husband shot one this spring that was one of a pack of 19...he just waited until they separated a bit. And since chances are good that they've never been shot at before, a young jake will just stand there, as noises aren't on their predator list-people are. 

What happened when you stood up...   

Don't try to blame the turkeys for the lack of deer in Alcona County, instead blame all of those with all those antlerless permits.


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

linda state land if to far away for these birds to be going to. we have non hunter surronding us. and we are flushing these birds all summer long. they can do all they want to the nearest state land but why would these birds travel sevral miles to go see if it has been improved and move on. they have food shelter and water right here. no they may not get tb but what are they going to get? the flu or another that may be more dangerous to the human population. i can get out of my deer stand in the fall and do jumping jack and these birds just watch me from 40 to 50 feet off. when i got into veiw of these turkeys this spring the just slowly walk off and make room for me to pass. and they do that all the time. and sorry but turkey mess has to be unhealthy to the family when it covers your yard. i know duck was found not to be health and they have tried to help this out. i would like to walk in my yard bare footed and not worry that it is a huge bathroom


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

we do blame the anterless permits. for the lack of deer. but in a country setting people must eat so they will shoot anything that is brown when given this permit. hmmmmmmm dnr tied into it again. to bad out of all the deer we have taking off this land and guess what no tb in them. does not help when you can o across the road and feed them. are the deer not permitted to cross the road now for we have tb and in a core area?


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Try thinking about this one-that the turkeys are smart enough to know when you're deer hunting, and when you're turkey hunting. 

You have nothing to worry about from turkeys as far as disease, even the ducks issue only concerned swimmer's itch, and that won't kill you. But apparently, you do have something to be concerned about when it comes to the deer in that area. At least, according to the DNR and USDA, you do. 

Turkeys, over the course of the spring, summer and fall, especially the gobblers, can range up to 10 miles or more, and I don't know of anywhere in Alcona County that you have to go any further than that to hit something in the way of public land. 

My husband's folks have a cottage on Churchill Point, and I've hunted Alcona County for many, many years. 

Talk to your neighbors about the "mess"...and in the meantime, consider it great fertilizer for your lawn, which with all the sand and poor soil in Alcona County, is very helpful...

Good luck, and try to see things in a more objective light...


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

i see we won't change your feelings at all. i looked at this in a positve mood when they issued fall permits but when you go 0 for 7. you have to think. i have yet to hear of one turkey hunter getting a permit for alcona county. and if you are worried i am in contact with the dnr myself maybe one hunter alone can not get the dnr moving but if we start to unite in this area. they may soon listen to us and see thier is a problem hear. and abot improving turkey habbitate on state land why not do it? they are doing it in lower western michigan. just take a drive outs to the rsga. north of rockford off of 131 and 20 mile they are planting crops for the wild turkey. lets see 28 dollors on the fall application plus 28 this spring for only two of us to draw plus the fees for the permit 98 buck cuz of 234 hunt that does add up when you multiply the hunter just in this area. they could put a portion of this in turkey food plots on state land. so please sit down and think what it must be like to live with these birds in a tight area. getts to be a pain. all i am asking is to have some control of the population on my land where the problem is


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

You don't have to change my mind, you need to change the mind of the DNR, and maybe change both the habitat and the weather in northern Michigan.

Again, talk to your neighbors, and you'll probably find out why there are so many birds in such a tight area. I would love to see the state do more in the way of habitat, but you will have to remember that all the habitat in the world won't make any difference to the turkeys when it's under two feet of snow-they'll still be in your neighbor's yard. 

The Rockford area doesn't have much of a snow issue in comparison, so habitat efforts are much more worthwhile. Conservation groups and the US Forest Service are much more active in that area as well. 

And raising the price of a turkey license, although I'd be all for it, would probably only deter hunters, I think the DNR would tell us, and that's something they DON'T want to do. 

I understand what you're saying, but just because you're not happy with all the turkeys in your area is not a good reason for the DNR to change the permit system in that entire area. 

And that's the way it is-again, go talk to your neighbors in that area.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I have been very fortunate in the past applying for the fall tag in the clinton county area but in the spring I have been stuck with the 234 which has turned out to be a great hunt period surprisingly for me. I really do not have a problem with people hunting out of a treestand for turkeys because the seaons overlap so much. I have done so in the past however last year I went out the final day and called them in to get a young hen on the final morning. I have to say it is pretty exciting to get a turkey any way you legally can. To say one way is "the way" to hunt something is wrong in my opinion. I hunt pheasants with a setter but I see peole trying to hunt with no dog at all or a lab :yikes: It would be wrong for me to say they are not doing it the way it is supposed to be done because they are out there legally and enjoying the great outdoors and hopefully passing it on to someone. I agree it is not the same treestand hunting as it is being on the ground calling or scattering them but it is still exciting. In my opinion it is no different that being out trout fishing and catching a master angler pike! It is not what you were fishing for but it is still a great catch. I will be out there looking for a turkey deer combo morning this fall and that will make one great picture IMO

AW


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I don't think you understand what I was getting at.

You hunt pheasants with a dog...and I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with those who hunt birds without a dog...but don't you think they're missing something??

I think if the archery deer hunters took just a few moments to concentrate on turkeys when they have fall turkey permits, rather than ambush one out of a treestand as an incidental species, they'd realize how much fun they'd been missing...


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I agree with you Linda, as I said Ihunted the fall season last year and loved itbut at the same time Michigan is the worst at laying out seasons because they all overlap so much people try to capitalize on as much as they can at one time. It is really tough to be ou there hunting turkeys (as I did last year) and see a nice buck walking by when you are holding a shotgun :yikes: I agree with you though it is a specail season to enjoy focusing on the birds as wll as people focus on the dder but I cannot fault a guy for taking advantage of the situation when it happens. Heck Iget so frustrated with how low those damn geese fly over my treetand in the fall :lol: I do see your point though Linda I just love hunting everything and have so limited time and three kids and a wife and a dog which I need to get out and get in the field that time of year as well. Now you are stressing me out how am I gonna get all that hunting done without making the wife mad? :lol: Good huntin Linda

AW


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

Well Adam I've Gotten Spring Permits For The Last Three Years That I Put In For Them In Alcona County (at Lost Lake Woods ) And I Just Got My First Fall Tag Today For Alcona County , So Now You Know Of One Person. Oh By The Way For The Last Two Deer Seasons I've Stopped In At The Lincoln Dnr Office And Voiced My Opinion On The Lack Of A Fall Turkey Hunt In The Area And They Took That To The Big Meeting And Guess What ??? We Have A Fall Hunt Due In Part To People Who Not Only Call The Dnr But Those Of Us Who Actually Go In And Speak To The Officers. I Was Told By An Officer That They Need More People To Come In And Talk To Them On Anything That Affects Us As Hunters And They Will In Turn Turn In That Imput To Those In Charge, So As A Sportsman Or Woman Don't Just Gripe To Others -- Go To The Dnr Officers In Person And Tell Them What You Would Like To See Or Have And They'll Be Happy In Most Cases To Have A Disscussion With You In Length. I Did So With The Dnr Lady At The Lincoln Office And Had Quite A Good One And There Was No Negative Attitude But A Very Interested Officer In My Opinion


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## ArrowHawk (Apr 1, 2003)

> I think if the archery deer hunters took just a few moments to concentrate on turkeys when they have fall turkey permits, rather than ambush one out of a treestand as an incidental species,


Not me Linda.
I use my bow for Turkey Hunting but I like to have a few deer tags in the pocket just in case a deer walks by.


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