# Extra gun in the boat???



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Jiw275 said:


> Found it.
> 
> *Joint State-Federal Waterfowl Hunting Regulations*
> *RESTRICTION*
> ...


the fight will be over the cased unloaded gun. grey area. wording needs to be cleared up.


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## Martin Looker (Jul 16, 2015)

That DNR officer will be getting paid to be in court. What's it doing to your pay check?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Divers Down said:


> I can’t concealed carry while duck or deer hunting?


carry 24/7. its legal....at least here on flats it is. I originally got my ccw because it was only way to legally do so. couldn't open carry or conceal a sidearm (not legal) unless i had CCW


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Martin Looker said:


> That DNR officer will be getting paid to be in court. What's it doing to your pay check?


also paid to be there. lol.


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## D-Fresh (Feb 8, 2005)

Getting checked while sitting on a marsh seat hunting with gun 1, with the 2nd gun in the boat at the other end of the corn, probably (can any of the CO's on this site provide input?) wouldn't ever be an issue. Me personally, I would never risk it. The issue is that you have to get the boat to the hunting location with both guns in possession. For those willing to "fight" this, please let us know how it works for you when you get checked at the launch with an extra gun in the boat...

Guys that need to take 2 guns should sell their junk and spend the coin on a reliable gun. If you drop it in the drink or it malfunctions in the field because you don't take care of it, your hunt is over. 
Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Jiw275 (Jan 1, 2015)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> the fight will be over the cased unloaded gun. grey area. wording needs to be cleared up.


All it takes is $$$$$


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## duckbuster2 (Aug 14, 2008)

BumpRacerX said:


> If your boat is parked at the end of the zone away from you, in a case...Are you really possessing it? I'm not a lawyer, but I would be curious as to how that one plays out in court.


Can't do it why take the chance.


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## duckbuster2 (Aug 14, 2008)

BumpRacerX said:


> If your boat is parked at the end of the zone away from you, in a case...Are you really possessing it? I'm not a lawyer, but I would be curious as to how that one plays out in court.


Can't do it why take the chance.


Shiawassee_Kid said:


> like i said, i'd take that fight.
> 
> intent of the law on this should mean something. having a cased gun back in the boat shouldn't be a ticket.
> 
> ...


You can have one gun per hunter not hard to understand.


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## Tavor (Sep 10, 2011)

Like D-Fresh said, a real risk is when you get checked at the ramp which, in my experience, is the most likely place to be checked. I don't think saying "It's a dumb law and should be changed" will get you very far in court.


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## BumpRacerX (Dec 31, 2009)

Tavor said:


> Like D-Fresh said, a real risk is when you get checked at the ramp which, in my experience, is the most likely place to be checked. I don't think saying "It's a dumb law and should be changed" will get you very far in court.


At the ramp the hunter isn't attempting to take migratory birds. They are pulling a boat out of the water. You're not sitting in the boat hunting decoys out etc. If there's a law against having multiple cased unloaded shotguns in a boat, then it would be illegal. 

Again. Not a lawyer. And not something I'm doing. Based on the wording and the intent, not sure this one flies though.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

BumpRacerX said:


> At the ramp the hunter isn't attempting to take migratory birds. They are pulling a boat out of the water. You're not sitting in the boat hunting decoys out etc. If there's a law against having multiple cased unloaded shotguns in a boat, then it would be illegal.
> 
> Again. Not a lawyer. And not something I'm doing. Based on the wording and the intent, not sure this one flies though.


if i'm driving around in my boat. i can carry as many cased unloaded shotguns as i want. lol. i'm not hunting.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

and if i'm hunting a managed area in my zone. and my boat is 100 yards from me. and i'm carrying 1 loaded gun. I'm hunting with 1 gun. this absolutely confuses me.

If i was parked and hunting from my boat, i think this law has more meaning and would be a tougher fight to get out of. most definitely seems like a boat hunters law....as it would be easier to exploit.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

duckbuster2 said:


> You would take what fight one gun no more that's the law as far as I know if it's different great.


I am going to agree with kid. If the gun was cased and unloaded you obviously are nit hunting with it. Now if it isnout ifnthe case and accessible you have an arguement. 

I am sure there is a CO that would try to write this ticket. I feel like I could win that argument with a judge.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Tavor said:


> It's been in the rules for as long as I can remember. The inclusion of "or possession" makes it pretty hard to get around it. No spare guns allowed in Michigan. Not all states have this rule.


Define possession.


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## duckbuster2 (Aug 14, 2008)

DirtySteve said:


> I am going to agree with kid. If the gun was cased and unloaded you obviously are nit hunting with it. Now if it isnout ifnthe case and accessible you have an arguement.
> 
> I am sure there is a CO that would try to write this ticket. I feel like I could win that argument with a judge.


Why one gun per person not hunting with 2 guns pretty simple one gun only.


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## R.J.M. (Jun 10, 2007)

Our group had a hunter barrow a gun from another hunter no big deal . Until he got a ride in another 
Boat while we picked up decoys and gave borrowed gun back to its owner. He went on his way 
Checked by the CO at the ramp and 
We were told and ticket was issued 
For a extra gun . This ended the lesson for us . Only one gun per hunter in the boat .


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Tavor (Sep 10, 2011)

DirtySteve said:


> Define possession.


I'll leave that to the layers and judges. In the meantime, I think you know what it means.

We all leave our boats stashed a short distance from where we are sitting with our decoys. I suspect you'd change your tune about possession if someone walked off with your stuff, and when the guy gets caught, he says:
"I didn't steal all this stuff, officer. It was just laying around out in the marsh, abandoned. Not in anyone's possession."


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Tavor said:


> I'll leave that to the layers and judges. In the meantime, I think you know what it means.
> 
> We all leave our boats stashed a short distance from where we are sitting with our decoys. I suspect you'd change your tune about possession if someone walked off with your stuff, and when the guy gets caught, he says:
> "I didn't steal all this stuff, officer. It was just laying around out in the marsh, abandoned. Not in anyone's possession."


so if i leave 2nd gun in my truck, is it in my possession also? its near my hunting zone and requires the same amount of effort to access it (cased and unloaded out of my reach)


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

DirtySteve said:


> Define possession.


Right, that is the question. If you use the definition of possession as it pertains to fish and game, it includes what is home in your freezer. Does that mean you cannot have a spare duck gun at home?
I think not. In my non legal opinion, possession in this case would mean in your immediate possession.

I've carried a spare gun in the past, left it in my boat and in a case. When stopped by a CO, they never ask about a spare, and I never bring it up.

Maybe I'm lucky and dumb?


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Lucky Dog said:


> Right, that is the question. If you use the definition of possession as it pertains to fish and game, it includes what is home in your freezer. Does that mean you cannot have a spare duck gun at home?
> I think not. In my non legal opinion, possession in this case would mean in your immediate possession.
> 
> I've carried a spare gun in the past, left it in my boat and in a case. When stopped by a CO, they never ask about a spare, and I never bring it up.
> ...


With fish and game the wording of the law defines possesion for that instance.....not every instance. 

Sorta like catch and release bass fishing. The law says catch and immediate release. Then goes on to describe immediate release as returning to the water without holding in a livewell or similar holding tank. That allows you to catch a fish and admire it. Maybe take a photo or a weight and release it with no grey area. The law about possession of fish at home clearly defines possession even down to processing of the fish. 

In this instance having a back up gun cased in your boat is no different than having it in a car or camper. That would be my argument. I can possess a gun as long as I am clearly not hunting with it. I would gladly take that ticket and fight it. The law doesnt define what possesion means. If you use the definition of possesion it includes owning.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Lucky Dog said:


> Maybe I'm lucky and dumb?


I would say you are just legal.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

DirtySteve said:


> With fish and game the wording of the law defines possesion for that instance.....not every instance.
> 
> Sorta like catch and release bass fishing. The law says catch and immediate release. Then goes on to describe immediate release as returning to the water without holding in a livewell or similar holding tank. That allows you to catch a fish and admire it. Maybe take a photo or a weight and release it with no grey area. The law about possession of fish at home clearly defines possession even down to processing of the fish.
> 
> In this instance having a back up gun cased in your boat is no different than having it in a car or camper. That would be my argument. I can possess a gun as long as I am clearly not hunting with it. I would gladly take that ticket and fight it. The law doesnt define what possesion means. If you use the definition of possesion it includes owning.


absolutely. reason why i said i'll take this one on in court if i was ticketed for a violation that i wasn't guilty of.  spirit of the law means no sitting there with 2 guns loaded ready to fire. if thats not what it means, then they need to clarify that law better IMO. its pretty vague and gives CO too much leeway. should be able to have 10 cased and unloaded guns in a boat.

can have 3 lines in water while fishing....i carry about 20 fishing poles. I could drop a 4th at any minute....its right there. how is this any different. please for sake of argument, explain to me why a 4th fishing pole shouldn't be a ticket also?


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## Z on LSC (Jan 5, 2021)

Lucky Dog said:


> Maybe I'm lucky and dumb?


Id say you know your 5th amendment and its intended use. 
In my experience, you can get the ticket but its ultimately the judge who can decide on it (i know of sick and egregious offenses with the absolute minimal sentenced by judges in NE). Hopefully they can decipher if the spirit of the law was being followed, but also support a CO who catches someone not playing the game like everyone else.


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## Tavor (Sep 10, 2011)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> so if i leave 2nd gun in my truck, is it in my possession also? its near my hunting zone and requires the same amount of effort to access it (cased and unloaded out of my reach)


I don't know. My guess would be it's ok in the truck but not in the boat, and even then, the answer could change with the circumstances. Like I already said, I'll leave that for the lawyers and judges.
There are differences in the rules regarding how guns must be handled in cars and boats. For example, in a car the gun must be in a case or an inaccessible compartment. At least, that's how it used to be. But in a boat under power, it must simply be unloaded. No case required unless traveling through certain restricted areas.


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## Tavor (Sep 10, 2011)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> absolutely. reason why i said i'll take this one on in court if i was ticketed for a violation that i wasn't guilty of.  spirit of the law means no sitting there with 2 guns loaded ready to fire. if thats not what it means, then they need to clarify that law better IMO. its pretty vague and gives CO too much leeway. should be able to have 10 cased and unloaded guns in a boat.
> 
> can have 3 lines in water while fishing....i carry about 20 fishing poles. I could drop a 4th at any minute....its right there. how is this any different. please for sake of argument, explain to me why a 4th fishing pole shouldn't be a ticket also?


The difference seems crystal clear to me. The fishing rule simply says no more than 3 lines in the water. That's all it says. They can't write a ticket because extra equipment in the boat breaks no rule.

The hunting rule, on the other hand, explicitly says "by the use or possession of ..." 
The extra gun breaks the rule, hence the ticket.

The simple fact of your not liking the rule is not sufficient reason to dismiss the ticket for ignoring it.


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## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

Divers Down said:


> I can’t concealed carry while duck or deer hunting?


You sure can while deer hunting-concealled or open-but need CPL for concealed. Better check the rule book. Can even hunt w/ it if others regs are complied with.

As o 2 guns in the boat?? What about 2 hunters/2 guns. Dos that mean I cant shoot both in succession w/ 3 shots/each??
We dont konw what some eager beaver duck cop will say-discretionary power--they love it!!!!


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## Tavor (Sep 10, 2011)

22 Chuck said:


> You sure can while deer hunting-concealled or open-but need CPL for concealed. Better check the rule book. Can even hunt w/ it if others regs are complied with.
> 
> As o 2 guns in the boat?? What about 2 hunters/2 guns. Dos that mean I cant shoot both in succession w/ 3 shots/each??
> We dont konw what some eager beaver duck cop will say-discretionary power--they love it!!!!


I believe that would be entirely legal. Not breaking any rule I'm aware of.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> Define possession.


Unless the definition of "possession" is written into the act itself the courts will rely on a 'common' definition like this one:

Possession means the ownership, control, or occupancy of any object, asset, or property, by a person.

Cases such as this one from Missouri, explain that “possession is defined as the detention and control, or the manual or ideal custody, of anything which may be the subject of property, for one's use and enjoyment, either as owner or as the proprietor of a qualified right in it, and either held personally or by another who exercises it in one's place and name.”

The two most common types of possession are: 


Actual possession, also called possession in fact, is used to describe immediate physical contact. This case from New York, explains that “actual possession is what most of us think of as possession—that is, having physical custody or control of an object.”
This case from the Eleventh Circuit, explains that _constructive possession_, also called possession in law, exists when a person has knowledge of an object plus the ability to control the object, *even when the person has no physical contact with it*.*** Constructive possession is often used in criminal cases. 

Legal Information Institute Cornell Law School

Hope this clears things up.

9mm Hi-Power

** *my highlights


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> Unless the definition of "possession" is written into the act itself the courts will rely on a 'common' definition like this one:
> 
> Possession means the ownership, control, or occupancy of any object, asset, or property, by a person.
> 
> ...


You should have highlighted the excerpt preceeding that. "When a person has knowledge of the object plus the ability to control". It goes on to say even if there is no physical contact. Which to me means remote control of some sort. 

I don't think this definition from NY would come into play in Michigan courts but if it did how would I have ability to control something put away in a case?


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## ice ghost (Jan 17, 2015)

If your a dick to the CO and give em a hard time and act like your above the law because of wording or interpretation you’re gonna loose. A CO or cop can write what ever they want in a report and do with d-bags. Your word against they’re word spells you loose. On the other hand, if your respectful and honest about why I doubt you’ll be dealing with a ticket. Maybe a warning at best. Do ya bring a spare truck or boat and motor, underwear? I see way more issues with these items than a gun.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Define firearm. What if you have 2 shotguns that can use the same barrel. I don't see how you would be in violation if your backup gun didn't have a barrel.


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## Martin Looker (Jul 16, 2015)

If you have lots of money to give to the state go for it and let us know how it works out.


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## Fish Whip Guy (Aug 31, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your input and discussion! Also thanks for the actual verbiage of the law. Its deep water so we hunt from the boat. I am not a risk taker and always try to follow all the laws so I won’t take the spare gun in the boat again! 
This gun has always been reliable but has had thousands of rounds through it with skeet and sporting clays besides hunting. A piece broke on the inside of the bolt and caused it to jam against the top of the receiver. Can’t get the part so I have to send it in to the manufacturer. Thankfully l have the backup! 
Thanks again!


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Fish Whip Guy said:


> Thanks everyone for your input and discussion! Also thanks for the actual verbiage of the law. Its deep water so we hunt from the boat. I am not a risk taker and always try to follow all the laws so I won’t take the spare gun in the boat again!
> This gun has always been reliable but has had thousands of rounds through it with skeet and sporting clays besides hunting. A piece broke on the inside of the bolt and caused it to jam against the top of the receiver. Can’t get the part so I have to send it in to the manufacturer. Thankfully l have the backup!
> Thanks again!


Be surprised what parts you may find on ebay.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Big Frank 25 said:


> Be surprised what parts you may find on ebay.


agree. bought a lot of 870 parts off ebay...they have tons of shotgun parts on there.


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## UplandnWaterfowl (Jan 3, 2010)




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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

22 Chuck said:


> You sure can while deer hunting-concealled or open-but need CPL for concealed. Better check the rule book. Can even hunt w/ it if others regs are complied with.
> 
> As o 2 guns in the boat?? What about 2 hunters/2 guns. Dos that mean I cant shoot both in succession w/ 3 shots/each??
> We dont konw what some eager beaver duck cop will say-discretionary power--they love it!!!!



Answer to the C.O. ; "What do you mean that my 8 year old son can't handle that 12 gage with heavy Steel loads that is taller then him?"


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

ice ghost said:


> If your a dick to the CO and give em a hard time and act like your above the law because of wording or interpretation you’re gonna loose. A CO or cop can write what ever they want in a report and do with d-bags. Your word against they’re word spells you loose. On the other hand, if your respectful and honest about why I doubt you’ll be dealing with a ticket. Maybe a warning at best. Do ya bring a spare truck or boat and motor, underwear? I see way more issues with these items than a gun.


I have won disputes with law enforcement both times i was wrongly accused. One time was a speeding ticket that went to court. Officer got a stern lecture from the judge. The other was a dispute about legality of my daughter operating a snowmobile on a marked trail. I had both CO and sherriff tell us we had to turn around and head home because we were illegal. No ticket was issued but i did go to their management and complain the next day. I was contacted by one of the officers later with an apology for their lack of knowledge.

I was not disrespectful in either case. You have to hold your composure and stick to the facts.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Been watching this thread for a few days. My take, load up the boat at the ramp with dekes, dog, shells and 3 guns for 2 hunters you are going "hunting".

Explaining that your primary shooter is fickle and you need a spare just in case... 

Why not just call Headquarters instead of creating all kinds of scenarios that would need to be settled in court?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Shoeman said:


> Been watching this thread for a few days. My take, load up the boat at the ramp with dekes, dog, shells and 3 guns for 2 hunters you are going "hunting".
> 
> Explaining that your primary shooter is fickle and you need a spare just in case...
> 
> Why not just call Headquarters instead of creating all kinds of scenarios that would need to be settled in court?


What fun would that be...on this board tho


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Grampski said:


> it's not listed in the waterfowl guide though so this would be really interesting if someone gets a ticket.


The guide isn't the law so that wouldn't matter. The term use would though. Tough to claim i am using more than one gun at a time if it is cased and unloaded.


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## cwielock (May 9, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> The guide isn't the law so that wouldn't matter. The term use would though. Tough to claim i am using more than one gun at a time if it is cased and unloaded.


I take my pump 12ga out but what if I also want to take my 20ga o/u as a back up if the birds are working in nice and close. My O/U is cased and broken down into 2 pieces in a hard case. Like you said hard to say im using 2 guns when 1 of them are in different pieces in a locked hard case.. 

Sent from my SM-G991U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

ice ghost said:


> Sure is a polite and kinder MS forums this year. Is it Covid related? I have one quick question? If I’m hunting geese in a field and my dog is able to catch and retrieve a goose without me shooting it am I legally able to possess this bird?



I know you can get a ticket if your dog retrieves spawning Salmon and you try to keep them even when you have no fishing poles.


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## Tavor (Sep 10, 2011)

DirtySteve said:


> The guide isn't the law so that wouldn't matter. The term use would though. Tough to claim i am using more than one gun at a time if it is cased and unloaded.


Maybe more significant is the wording used in the conservation order quoted a few posts back. There is no mention of the word "possession" at all. It seems that since forever ago, the combined state/federal rules were just cut-and-pasted verbatim from one year to the next. But this year's waterfowling guide presents the rules differently. Maybe they have backed that possession thing out of the rules?


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## Nicoli7153 (Oct 9, 2012)

Tavor said:


> Maybe more significant is the wording used in the conservation order quoted a few posts back. There is no mention of the word "possession" at all. It seems that since forever ago, the combined state/federal rules were just cut-and-pasted verbatim from one year to the next. But this year's waterfowling guide presents the rules differently. Maybe they have backed that possession thing out of the rules?


Looks like it. It's not in the federal regs at all anymore. Also looks like the state changed is as well, but still is holding on to the one gun per when in the act of taking. BTW "Take" in WCO includes the attempt.


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## Tavor (Sep 10, 2011)

This thread reminded me of a thread on another duck hunting forum on which an argument erupted about using two LOADED guns in the blind while hunting. One for ducks, one for geese. Some guys said it was a violation. Others said it was perfectly legal in their state and it must be a state-by-state thing, not federal. I stayed out of it because the depth of my waterfowl law knowledge comes from the guide published by Michigan each year, which doesn't differentiate between state and fed rules. So, does anyone know? Is the multi-gun rule just a state thing? Do the feds care? Just curious.


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## Nicoli7153 (Oct 9, 2012)

Tavor said:


> This thread reminded me of a thread on another duck hunting forum on which an argument erupted about using two LOADED guns in the blind while hunting. One for ducks, one for geese. Some guys said it was a violation. Others said it was perfectly legal in their state and it must be a state-by-state thing, not federal. I stayed out of it because the depth of my waterfowl law knowledge comes from the guide published by Michigan each year, which doesn't differentiate between state and fed rules. So, does anyone know? Is the multi-gun rule just a state thing? Do the feds care? Just curious.


It used to be a Federal Reg for a long time! The state mirrored it as a joint regulation. Looks like the Feds dropped it and the state kept part of it in effect, but dropped the possession language from state law.


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## kzoofisher (Mar 6, 2011)

Never needed to guns in a blind but I have driven home with guns uncased. Only when it's at least a couple hour trip and both cases and guns are soaked. I break down the barrels, run a lock through the action and put them way out of reach in the back, figure if I get stopped for any reason I'll be ok. Someday maybe I'll find out.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

kzoofisher said:


> Never needed to guns in a blind but I have driven home with guns uncased. Only when it's at least a couple hour trip and both cases and guns are soaked. I break down the barrels, run a lock through the action and put them way out of reach in the back, figure if I get stopped for any reason I'll be ok. Someday maybe I'll find out.


Was a time when I never used a case as well. Just broke my gun down during transport.


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## kzoofisher (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah, but these days I worry about a LEO walking up and the first thing he sees is the barrel of a 12 gauge. Wouldn't blame him for being a little nervous.


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