# Would you support the spearing of panfish through the ice statewide?



## Firefighter

Fisheries Order 219.18 specifies spearing regulations, and currently panfish spearing through the ice is not allowed, with the exception of perch on Lake St. Clair.

Fishing license sales have precipitously fallen since their peak of approximately 2 million in the late 80's. Youth recruitment and retention is paramount to reduce this trend and preserve resources for future generations. Opportunities providing high levels of action create an excellent chance for youth to establish an early and potentially lasting love of the outdoors. Panfish spearing has the potential to be just this gateway activity. Equipment required is minimal, it would be enjoyed from the warmth of a shanty, and the visual stimulation combined with the physical action and alertness of actively "hunting " plentiful species, albeit in a challenging way, would thoroughly enjoyed by youth and adults alike.

I'd like to hear thoughts both in favor of, or opposed to, and gauge interest.

All constructive input is appreciated.


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## maddiedog

Of course I support it. Why we can't spear every fish legal to catch through ice is rediculous. Way harder to spear them.


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## Nick Lindsley

We are allowed to spear them out here in SD. Challenging for me as they are usually way deeper have gotten a few and damn fun to try. Also trying to make a "perch spear"...on version 3 but slowly getting better.


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## Lerms

I would love it, I have a blast every year on LSC spearing perch. Wish I could do it on my everyday lakes also.


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## TheMAIT

I think it's a great idea...


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## Whitetail_hunter

Absolutely.


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## wpmisport

I have not seen what a pan fish spear looks like but it would seem that a good portion of the edible meat would be destroyed. What percentage of the fish would not be kept because it would not be worth the effort? 
Maybe you could make nice fillets out of all the speared pan fish.


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## Jimbo 09

Absolutely. Love perch spearing. Would be nice to be able to do it in all lakes. It shouldn’t matter how you get your fish as long as you follow the limits.


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## anon02032020

Omg spearing panfish. I'm good. That's what a jig rod is for.


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## david boyko

The only problem I see with it is some guys don't know how to make sure their holes are marked.


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## on a call

Oh crap....u mean it is not legal ??


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## mondrella

All for it! It should not matter its a legal method for some fish but not all makes no sense. Its very selective method of harvest.


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## zer0

wpmisport said:


> I have not seen what a pan fish spear looks like but it would seem that a good portion of the edible meat would be destroyed. What percentage of the fish would not be kept because it would not be worth the effort?
> Maybe you could make nice fillets out of all the speared pan fish.


Tines with a smaller diameter are used to make perch spears, this negates the meat loss. One of the cheap frog gig spear heads commonly found in most fishing sections would also suffice. 

I would assume that when speaking of meat loss, you are in reference of larger spears, which are constructed to take larger fish such as pike musky and sturgeon.


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## Gamekeeper

The OP actually thinks that expanding a sport practiced by almost no one, while thousands are book and line fishing already, is somehow the answer to declining license sales?

Hint, allowing people to spear bluegill isn't going to get Johnny off the couch, and to put down his nintendo.


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## plugger

I would include bass also.


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## Swampdog467

I'm for it. Sounds like a good time. I think it was legal here at one time, my grandma used to tell me stories about spearing all types of fish back in the 1920's and 30's. She told me she once speared a muskrat that was coming in the shanty with her. I'd like to have been there for that!

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## sureshot006

Gamekeeper said:


> The OP actually thinks that expanding a sport practiced by almost no one, while thousands are book and line fishing already, is somehow the answer to declining license sales?
> 
> Hint, allowing people to spear bluegill isn't going to get Johnny off the couch, and to put down his nintendo.


I think we all know that... it wouldnt change a thing. Could be fun for those who already are into spearing though. Might sell a few more spears to guys who get frustrated by the big pannies that just stare.


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## Gamekeeper

sureshot006 said:


> I think we all know that... it wouldnt change a thing. Could be fun for those who already are into spearing though.


It's like the MPI bs.
Wrapping a personal desire in a lie to get support is bs.


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## JMK1878

Im all for it. Spearing a fish is much harder than tossing a jig down on a rod. Why can a jig and rod guy take 25 panfish but a spear guy cant take 10?


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## zer0

I wonder which category the negative reactions fall into?

opposed, on the grounds of a desire not to participate
opposed, on the grounds to block participation for others


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## Decoy Hound

zer0 said:


> I wonder which category the negative reactions fall into?
> 
> opposed, on the grounds of a desire not to participate
> opposed, on the grounds to block participation for others


Yeah good question??!!


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## garyb

my on


Firefighter said:


> Fisheries Order 219.18 specifies spearing regulations, and currently panfish spearing through the ice is not allowed, with the exception of perch on Lake St. Clair.
> 
> Fishing license sales have precipitously fallen since their peak of approximately 2 million in the late 80's. Youth recruitment and retention is paramount to reduce this trend and preserve resources for future generations. Opportunities providing high levels of action create an excellent chance for youth to establish an early and potentially lasting love of the outdoors. Panfish spearing has the potential to be just this gateway activity. Equipment required is minimal, it would be enjoyed from the warmth of a shanty, and the visual stimulation combined with the physical action and alertness of actively "hunting " plentiful species, albeit in a challenging way, would thoroughly enjoyed by youth and adults alike.
> 
> I'd like to hear thoughts both in favor of, or opposed to, and gauge interest.
> 
> All constructive input is appreciated.


my only opposition to this is the big holes they leave in the ice,real easy to step in one of these spearing holes unless marked


plugger said:


> I would include bass also.


why stop there, what about trout ?


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## Lumberman

I’m all for it. 

My only concern would be over harvest in smaller inland lakes. Over here on the west side there are some lakes that get pounded already. The only thing that’s saves the fish is after the first couple of weeks they get lockjaw. Now they would still be fair game. But I doubt the participation rate would be such that it would make much of difference.


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## Gamekeeper

zer0 said:


> I wonder which category the negative reactions fall into?
> 
> opposed, on the grounds of a desire not to participate
> opposed, on the grounds to block participation for others


how about people that might support an expansion if the people proposing it were honest about their desire?


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## Whitetail_hunter

Gamekeeper said:


> It's like the MPI bs.
> Wrapping a personal desire in a lie to get support is bs.



What do you mean by MPI? Did I miss something or do you mean something else.


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## Gamekeeper

Whitetail_hunter said:


> What do you mean by MPI? Did I miss something or do you mean something else.


the same disingenuous canard was used by the "Michigan Pheasant Initiative" to sleaze half a million for a renewed "put-n-take" pheasant program to "reinvigorate youth participation" in pheasant hu nting.


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## Whitetail_hunter

Gamekeeper said:


> the same disingenuous canard was used by the "Michigan Pheasant Initiative" to sleaze half a million for a renewed "put-n-take" pheasant program to "reinvigorate youth participation" in pheasant hu nting.



Thanks for the clarification as I am not a pheasant Hunter, I did read about it on here though.

However this issue is much different in my opinion. This would create more opportunity for all sportsman young and old alike, without the crazy costs of the MPI deal. I don't think anyone thinks this will be the silver bullet that fixes the loss in license sales, just expanding opportunity and hopefully draw new people to the sport of fishing.


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## garyb

Gamekeeper said:


> the same disingenuous canard was used by the "Michigan Pheasant Initiative" to sleaze half a million for a renewed "put-n-take" pheasant program to "reinvigorate youth participation" in pheasant hu nting.


how true it is...


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## Falk

Sure as long as a law is passed about marking spearing holes.


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## Gamekeeper

Whitetail_hunter said:


> Thanks for the clarification as I am not a pheasant Hunter, I did read about it on here though.
> 
> However this issue is much different in my opinion. This would create more opportunity for all sportsman young and old alike, without the crazy costs of the MPI deal. I don't think anyone thinks this will be the silver bullet that fixes the loss in license sales, just expanding opportunity and hopefully draw new people to the sport of fishing.


I'm a simple guy.
There's no point in telling a lie when the truth will do.

If a group of sportsmen want broader opportunity for themselves, there is no shame in saying so.


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## garyb

Falk said:


> Sure as long as a law is passed about marking spearing holes.


safety first , why does it always have to injure someone before they enforce the rules that are already there ?


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## Rainman68

Any opportunity to increase participation in the outdoors is a win for us all. 

How many of you guys opposed to panfish spearing were against the use of crossbows for deer hunting? How many now use them?


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## Whitetail_hunter

Gamekeeper said:


> I'm a simple guy.
> There's no point in telling a lie when the truth will do.
> 
> If a group of sportsmen want broader opportunity for themselves, there is no shame in saying so.



I could see how you say that about the MPI but not about this. If the question was would you support a planting of X amount of adult Pike in lakes A,B,C etc at the cost of say $50 a fish then they would be comparable to me. Put and take is far different than expanding opportunity for all who fish threw the ice.


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## Bucman

Gamekeeper said:


> The OP actually thinks that expanding a sport practiced by almost no one, while thousands are book and line fishing already, is somehow the answer to declining license sales?
> 
> Hint, allowing people to spear bluegill isn't going to get Johnny off the couch, and to put down his nintendo.



You are not well informed about spear fishermen and women. Im all for it! Johnny may like spearing bluegills but he will never know since its not legal!


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## Bucman

david boyko said:


> The only problem I see with it is some guys don't know how to make sure their holes are marked.



Its only courtesy to do that since its not a law.


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## Bucman

Gamekeeper said:


> It's like the MPI bs.
> Wrapping a personal desire in a lie to get support is bs.


MPI?DB


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## garyb

Bucman said:


> You are not well informed about spear fishermen and women. Im all for it! Johnny may like spearing bluegills but he will never know since its not legal!


take jonhny out when you are spearing for pike and let him try that, I think johnny would rather be in the house and playing games ,


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## Bucman

garyb said:


> safety first , why does it always have to injure someone before they enforce the rules that are already there ?


Agreed which is why we as a group"MDAA" mark unmarked holes when we see them.


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## Bucman

garyb said:


> take jonhny out when you are spearing for pike and let him try that, I think johnny would rather be in the house and playing games ,


I surely would and have taken many. Stop trolling, save it for the deer forum.

OBTW i dont think you have ever speared, cant do it form the couch!!!!!~


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## Bucman

garyb said:


> safety first , why does it always have to injure someone before they enforce the rules that are already there ?


Post that rule!


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## Drake

on a call said:


> Oh crap....u mean it is not legal ??




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## Drake

Rainman68 said:


> Any opportunity to increase participation in the outdoors is a win for us all.
> 
> How many of you guys opposed to panfish spearing were against the use of crossbows for deer hunting? How many now use them?


I have to admit , I was one of them .
When Michigan Bowhunters was trying to raise money to defeat the bill I was one of many that did . At that time I was a much younger man ,
now in my mid 60's ,
I'm glad it was allowed to happen !!

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## garyb

Drake said:


> I have to admit , I was one of them .
> When Michigan Bowhunters was trying to raise money to defeat the bill I was one of many that did . At that time I was a much younger man ,
> now in my mid 60's ,
> I'm glad it was allowed to happen !!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


do you think of all the people who love to ice fish for bluegills would endorse this ?


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## zer0

garyb said:


> do you think of all the people who love to ice fish for bluegills would endorse this ?


One would be hard pressed to find any issue through human history that has attained a 100% endorsement rate.


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## garyb

zer0 said:


> One would be hard pressed to find any issue through human history that has attained a 100% endorsement rate.


ok the majority of people fishing for bluegills thru the ice , how that ?


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## zer0

My personal Standard Operating Procedure is to ask, and engage in conversation, as opposed wildly assume and speculate.


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## Waif

garyb said:


> ok the majority of people fishing for bluegills thru the ice , how that ?


Fishing hook and line fishing you mean?
Beats me. No one in particular comes to mind. Cleanin fish is cleanin fish.
There's always some one worried about some one else outfishing them. Or fishing where they wanted to fish. Or catching a fish they wanted to catch ,or keeping a fish and taking it home , or putting a certain fish back after catching it , or....A multitude of other things , few related to most sane folks purpose in fishing. Or in a thread asking if YOU support fishing panfish by spear Vs would all bluegill hook and line lovin anglers support it.


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## garyb

zer0 said:


> My personal Standard Operating Procedure is to ask, and engage in conversation, as opposed wildly assume and speculate.


I never said 100% you are nit pickin to what I said ! enough of this .


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## Drake

garyb said:


> do you think of all the people who love to ice fish for bluegills would endorse this ?


I'm sure it will happen ..
But as for myself , I'm kind of old school ! 
Good - Bad , 
It all depends on who you talk to ..
The thing I question is when someone happens to hit a , Smaller one than he thought it was it will either be bird food or turtle food , 
When maybe if it was caught hook and line and being given 1 or 2 more years it would be a keeper !!
JMO

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## mondrella

Lund Explorer said:


> And what I am suggesting is to see a slot limit put on all inland lakes. The lakes you describe are the ones that are already stunted and offer very little chance of seeing a number of large fish. Please remember that I am talking about sitting in a spearing shack looking down at the fish. No different than deer hunting, I would think that most guys would be happier to harvest a few smaller fish while seeing a number of fish growing into that 30" class.
> 
> It is my honest opinion that raising the size limit to 24" on pike was a mistake. It may have worked on bass when limits kept going up, but it seems that I caught a lot fewer pike over 24" after the rule change than before.


I spear many of the local lakes. Many of our local lakes that dont have pike in the 30 up class in numbers really are not conducive to grow 30inch plus fish. People do not realize once fiah start pushing 36" they need much cooler water to survive. They become more trout like.
I have asked about possible reg changes to allow harvest of smaller fish. We could ask locals to ask for it on some of these lakes we could socially push to get regs changed. To do a study on a lake to see if regs changes are justified. Our DNR dont have the funds to do them on these small lakes. 
Personally from my experience it would be much more difficult to even harvest a limit of 10 gills with a spear than a jig rod. Think about you drop a spear in the water the school leaves. Unlike pulling up and out with hook and line. Allowing another method just opens opportunity for those on the ice.


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## zer0

@garyb
earlier in the day I had attempted to PM contact you, in order to expand talk further on some of the subjects presented here. I'd accept the chat session if you were to enable it, or some phone conversation. Replys in forum thread format can slow the progress of a good conversation, and/or totally derail it.


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## maddiedog

Falk said:


> Sure as long as a law is passed about marking spearing holes.


I've fished with several guys here and everyone of them will agree with you. Most of us take extra brush and mark them. Same old story as everywhere...a few people give many a bad name.

Edit: Didn't read the whole post. Arguments about letting bigger fish go do have some merits but many of us are very selective. If I spear 10 fish it's an outstanding year and I have over 35 sits a year on usually 10 big bodies of water. Most will come from the bay that can support more take.


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## on a call

zer0 said:


> My personal Standard Operating Procedure is to ask, and engage in conversation, as opposed wildly assume and speculate.


````````````Have you been drinking ?


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## Drake

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## zer0

LOL, going on 30+ hrs awake, and still chatty as always


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## on a call

I just got up and was wondering what I am going to do...should I clock in ? 

30 hours huh...how long do you sleep when you do ?


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## AllSpecieAngler

david boyko said:


> I'm sure you would think differently if it was you or your kid that steps in one that isn't completely froze over


I don't know a diehard spearer that doesn't mark their holes and as said by others, most of us take extra brush and mark any other holes that need it. I know hook and line guys that also cut big holes to sight fish. Personally I think any hole over 8" diameter should be required to be marked. 

To the original post, I am all for panfish spearing. Also walleye, lake trout, and salmon. If it can be harvested by hook and line, why not a spear? We have daily possession limits to protect from overfishing. Method of harvest should be up to the individual. 



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## david boyko

I'm all for allowing spearing any species. Just concerned about holes that aren't marked. Have witnessed someone step in one. Thank God they only got wet and not dead. I once stepped in a 10" hole myself that was covered in snow. Not a pleasant experience. All I got was a wet leg and ruined my day.


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## Lund Explorer

mondrella said:


> I spear many of the local lakes. Many of our local lakes that dont have pike in the 30 up class in numbers really are not conducive to grow 30inch plus fish. People do not realize once fiah start pushing 36" they need much cooler water to survive. They become more trout like.
> I have asked about possible reg changes to allow harvest of smaller fish. We could ask locals to ask for it on some of these lakes we could socially push to get regs changed. To do a study on a lake to see if regs changes are justified. Our DNR dont have the funds to do them on these small lakes.
> Personally from my experience it would be much more difficult to even harvest a limit of 10 gills with a spear than a jig rod. Think about you drop a spear in the water the school leaves. Unlike pulling up and out with hook and line. Allowing another method just opens opportunity for those on the ice.


I'll start right off by saying that I haven't sat in a spear house for 30 years. Not due to the lack of fish or desire, just to much work during the season. Because you are still active in the sport, I'll defer to what you are seeing today as my viewpoint is shaped by what I experience during the open water season. That viewpoint tells me that there aren't anywhere near as many legal sized pike in our local lakes as there used to be.

The OP's initial question led me to think he was looking for ideas to get more youth recruitment and retention, and he was wondering if the chance to spear panfish would provide that incentive. My idea is that it might be better to open up spearing a few of what appears to be way more hammer handles than most lakes really need. I also think the sport would be helped if we didn't harvest a certain size fish to provide for a solid spawning class. The 30" mark I mentioned earlier isn't written in stone, but only a suggestion.

If I have any opposition to spearing panfish, it is because I don't think that will accomplish what the OP was looking for.


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## Waif

david boyko said:


> I'm all for allowing spearing any species. Just concerned about holes that aren't marked. Have witnessed someone step in one. Thank God they only got wet and not dead. I once stepped in a 10" hole myself that was covered in snow. Not a pleasant experience. All I got was a wet leg and ruined my day.


I've been on the ice on crutches. 
Plenty of unmarked auger holes. A couple found by going in them even.
How concerned should those who made them have been?

Following the majority of spearer's example , all holes should be marked?


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## mondrella

Lund Explorer said:


> I'll start right off by saying that I haven't sat in a spear house for 30 years. Not due to the lack of fish or desire, just to much work during the season. Because you are still active in the sport, I'll defer to what you are seeing today as my viewpoint is shaped by what I experience during the open water season. That viewpoint tells me that there aren't anywhere near as many legal sized pike in our local lakes as there used to be.
> 
> The OP's initial question led me to think he was looking for ideas to get more youth recruitment and retention, and he was wondering if the chance to spear panfish would provide that incentive. My idea is that it might be better to open up spearing a few of what appears to be way more hammer handles than most lakes really need. I also think the sport would be helped if we didn't harvest a certain size fish to provide for a solid spawning class. The 30" mark I mentioned earlier isn't written in stone, but only a suggestion.
> 
> If I have any opposition to spearing panfish, it is because I don't think that will accomplish what the OP was looking for.


Lakes that are good for growing pike i see 3 to 4 legal fish a day most days. Now lakes that are not conducive to growing pike i see 50 little to each legal fish. Those lakes seem to be better Bass lakes than pike. 
Will it add youth?? I can't say it will. I can say we all like more freedom in how we choose to do something. If we can harvest 25 panfish daily what difference does it make if we spear them or use hook and line.


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## Drake

What , Clean 25 panfish !
I thought it was called fishing , 
That sounds like work ! LOL
I'll only keep 15 .....

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## mondrella

I agree Drake only time i keep 25 gills is when 4 of the kids are home. That or some of the elderly ask me for a meal. Otherwise we normally get by on 10.


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## Drake

mondrella said:


> I agree Drake only time i keep 25 gills is when 4 of the kids are home. That or some of the elderly ask me for a meal. Otherwise we normally get by on 10.


I need a few for lunch the next day !!

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## swampbuck

Nope

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## Firefighter

swampbuck said:


> Nope
> 
> Sent from my SM-S367VL using Michigan Sportsman mobile app



Reasons?


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## jasonmichalski

I’m for it, a limit is a limit doesn’t matter how you get it!


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## jasonmichalski

Mr. Botek said:


> I really hate myself for logging in and even making an attempt. There's a little charred pit in my heart that wants to see failure for my own selfish reasons, HOWEVER I DO support the expansion of spearing.
> 
> One: I agree with Gamekeeper. Do not frame this as a way to get kids involved. It is disingenuous and pandering. Its also unnecessary.
> 
> Two: the attacks are already mounting against one person who likely SUPPORTS the idea but ONLY disagrees with the way to get there.
> 
> Three: this can happen by simply making a case for expanding method of take on an already established limit that is allowed.
> 
> Four: Do you really want to push otherwise supporters away by saying that your against increasing a regulation to require marking of holes? MDAA has ALWAYS preached safety and promoted marking holes, why not show you're serious? Follow the example North Dakota; if you cut a hole through the ice larger that 12" x 12", you are required to have marking material already on hand or you will receive a citation. Simple.
> 
> Five: there is no added cost for implementing a regulation change to expand spearing nor is there an added cost to add a marking regulation.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Hole marking should be done by education not regulation, regulations are part of the problem, when you have to worried about everything you do resulting in a ticket of course it’s easier to stay home in front of the game console. 


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## Mr. Botek

I knew I'd regret my attempt at assistance.
Since I don't have a game console or any video game system, I'll just stay home and vote no if it ever gets that far.

Remember, you wanted this.


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## Rainman68

True Facts....

On our St Clair 2019 outing, Zer0 (that put it together) pulled a sled full of branches for anyone to use to mark holes. We all had our own but he was looking out for us as well as everyone else. 

Water clarity sucked at times and our total take from a good sized group wasn't a single persons limit. So no, we are not going to kill everything. Jiggers were still catching limits.

I can place the ice block back in the hole, mark it and within minutes walk back over it if it's cold enough. It doesn't take long.

I seem to remember bitching about 10" auger holes a few years ago. Did you mark your holes then? I have twisted an ankle on one skimmed over :rant:


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## sureshot006

Why the opposition to a hole marking law?

10" holes can definitely soak a leg. You wont fall right in though.


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## Rasputin

Maybe couple the idea with reverse spearing and gain some traction 

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## swampbuck

Firefighter said:


> Reasons?


#1 Because I have been down a unmarked, slightly frozen spearing hole, not cool. And Far too many continue to go unmarked, in fact I believe it has been an increasing problem.

#2 it may not be sustainable in all waters

#3 your group not only withheld support for changes desired by this community, but actively lobbied the MDNR against it.



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## Drake

Ok .
To those of you who are for spearing panfish would you keep All the fish you hit ( larger or small ) or would you slip the ( oh **** it's to small ) back in the water ?? With hook and line I can send them back no worse for were and bigger next year !!
Would you KEEP ALL YOUR FISH ???

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## sureshot006

Drake said:


> Ok .
> To those of you who are for spearing panfish would you keep All the fish you hit ( larger or small ) or would you slip the ( oh **** it's to small ) back in the water ?? With hook and line I can send them back no worse for were and bigger next year !!
> Would you KEEP ALL YOUR FISH ???
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I think the true spear enthusiasts would be selective and keep what they spear. The masses... nope. Many hook and line fisherman already throw small ones on the ice and let them die and go to waste. I think they feel they could scare the remaining fish by releasing one.


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## Firefighter

Drake said:


> Ok .
> To those of you who are for spearing panfish would you keep All the fish you hit ( larger or small ) or would you slip the ( oh **** it's to small ) back in the water ?? With hook and line I can send them back no worse for were and bigger next year !!
> Would you KEEP ALL YOUR FISH ???
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app



Absolutely. 

It's disgusting how many gills hook and line anglers leave on the ice. 

When spearing, if a spearer doesn't want to attempt to harvest a fish, they won't actively throw the spear. 

I see there's obviously overwhelming support, but the few sterotypes of spearing I'm gathering here are disturbing.


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## Drake

I agree ,
I have seen some people do just that !
Most thank God do not , but with spearing of panfish we all know it will happen and they won't even think about it and just say Darn ...

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## Firefighter

swampbuck said:


> #1 Because I have been down a unmarked, slightly frozen spearing hole, not cool. And Far too many continue to go unmarked, in fact I believe it has been an increasing problem.
> 
> #2 it may not be sustainable in all waters
> 
> #3 your group not only withheld support for changes desired by this community, but actively lobbied the MDNR against it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S367VL using Michigan Sportsman mobile app



1 - Because of education, I personally have seen and more hole marking. 

2 - Spearing harvest may push some waters of panfish angling past sustainability? A stretch, but it warrants research.

3 - I'm assuming you're talking about a Higgins slot. You propose a slot for "trophy" pike, but ferociously oppose APR's for deer which arguably increase "trophy" potential...

I'm curious as to the difference, but it's really not the point of the thread. I'll acknowledge points 1&2.


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## Drake

Guys I hope you are right !
But myself and what I envision happening I have to say .. No !
I know it will come but count me out !

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## Waif

Drake said:


> I agree ,
> I have seen some people do just that !
> Most thank God do not , but with spearing of panfish we all know it will happen and they won't even think about it and just say Darn ...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Not sure of the problem.
I can fillet about any fish. A potato chip one won't ruin my day if filleted.
A bluegill that's nine inches instead of eleven or something? So? Unless a size limit is in place , they'll still taste like...Bluegills. If a limit size is in place , by law or self imposed ,then Darn don't count. Actual size does.

If you look into spearing decoys and their users you'll find reference on occasion of using the decoy for length comparison.
If you're close enough to poke a panfish , you're close enough to estimate length. Right?
If not then you have a problem. 
Don't transfer speculation of others having one based on yours. 
I don't know what you'll do , let alone "some people".. How can "we all know"?
If all our regulations were based on what "some people" might do , we'd be hog tied in straight jackets.


----------



## maddiedog

Yeah it's not like I'd be throwing at a perch in 15' of water. In the last three years if I speared every perch and walleye I saw, I'd have a few extra meals. Most panfish guys hole hop to stay in a school. We stay in one spot. If I get the opportunity I'd love to do it but too many preconceived notions out there.


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## Waif

maddiedog said:


> Yeah it's not like I'd be throwing at a perch in 15' of water. In the last three years if I speared every perch and walleye I saw, I'd have a few extra meals. Most panfish guys hole hop to stay in a school. We stay in one spot. If I get the opportunity I'd love to do it but too many preconceived notions out there.


Sound logic.

And that's IF you want to disturb the water with commotion.


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## Firefighter

Does everyone realize it's currently legal to spear smelt? Ciscos? Perch on Lake St. Clair? Those concerned with the size of panfish needn't be.

Speaking of perch on LSC, which is arguably the most heavily fished water in the state due to it's size, access, and proximity relative to dense human population, the NRC addressed the concern of spearing and overharvest/sustainability in the fall of 2017. They found .2 percent of anglers surveyed speared perch (I wish it was higher), and increasing the season length "is expected to result in little additional harvest and should not have a negative effect on the yellow perch population". Their words, not mine.


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## Drake

Waif said:


> Not sure of the problem.
> I can fillet about any fish. A potato chip one won't ruin my day if filleted.
> A bluegill that's nine inches instead of eleven or something? So? Unless a size limit is in place , they'll still taste like...Bluegills. If a limit size is in place , by law or self imposed ,then Darn don't count. Actual size does.
> 
> If you look into spearing decoys and their users you'll find reference on occasion of using the decoy for length comparison.
> If you're close enough to poke a panfish , you're close enough to estimate length. Right?
> If not then you have a problem.
> Don't transfer speculation of others having one based on yours.
> I don't know what you'll do , let alone "some people".. How can "we all know"?
> If all our regulations were based on what "some people" might do , we'd be hog tied in straight jackets.


Okay then let's look at it from this perspective , We all know littering is a bad thing everywhere !!
So what are these people that leave this trash on the lake near the lake what are they thinking !
Some people or should I say most people do have their limits !
But I've seen way too many people that just don't give a damn !! I know of people that take more fish than they are limited to , I know people would take fish out of season ! And if I know one or two people that will do that how many more are out there !
In my opinion I just can't see it !!

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## GWGjr

I'm for it.

I also agree that any hole over 8" should be marked - have had the unpleasant experience of stepping into 10" holes on a few occasions - but good luck getting that enforced.

I jig fish (hook and line) and spear fish - maybe it's from a lack of spear throwing prowess, but if I were hard pressed to bring home a limit of fish I would be using the hook and line approach. Three lines in the water covering a greater area, plus a lot less chance of spooking away a school with a jig versus a thrown spear.

Selective harvest with a spear versus catching numerous dinks via hook and line - both methods will injure fish. Ever spear a fish in 65' of water? Likely not. Ever hit a hotspot of schooled perch in 65'+ of water? Quite often. Ever see what happens to a perch reeled up from water that deep or deeper? Arguments can be made that those fish caught that deep and are undersized can be turned back, but I would say the majority of those fish aren't going to make it - is that enough of an "ethical" reason to not fish that deep? Where does such a line get drawn? 

All told, I would compare hook and line fishing vs spearing to something like deer hunting with a crossbow vs a long bow - both have a following and a valid purpose with pro/con arguments to each. Important element to all of this is learning and following the ethical practice of game harvest along with safety and respect of fellow sportsman, irregardless of what legal method is chosen.


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## Drake

Firefighter said:


> Does everyone realize it's currently legal to spear smelt? Ciscos? Perch on Lake St. Clair? Those concerned with the size of panfish needn't be.
> 
> Speaking of perch on LSC, which is arguably the most heavily fished water in the state due to it's size, access, and proximity relative to dense human population, the NRC addressed the concern of spearing and overharvest/sustainability in the fall of 2017. They found .2 percent of anglers surveyed speared perch (I wish it was higher), and increasing the season length "is expected to result in little additional harvest and should not have a negative effect on the yellow perch population". Their words, not mine.


Spearing smelled or perch I'd love to try it !! I went so far as to make a smelt spear I've never used it , I hope to someday !
Lake st. Clair is a tremendously large body of water .. But the smaller lakes that some of us fish would not be able to handle that extra pressure !
Trash on top of lakes or dead fish under the lakes one is just as bad as the other !
I'm sorry I hope what you are proposing will be shot down , Unfortunately the majority do not have the same morals as the minority !

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## Drake

GWGjr said:


> I'm for it.
> 
> I also agree that any hole over 8" should be marked - have had the unpleasant experience of stepping into 10" holes on a few occasions - but good luck getting that enforced.
> 
> I jig fish (hook and line) and spear fish - maybe it's from a lack of spear throwing prowess, but if I were hard pressed to bring home a limit of fish I would be using the hook and line approach. Three lines in the water covering a greater area, plus a lot less chance of spooking away a school with a jig versus a thrown spear.
> 
> Selective harvest with a spear versus catching numerous dinks via hook and line - both methods will injure fish. Ever spear a fish in 65' of water? Likely not. Ever hit a hotspot of schooled perch in 65'+ of water? Quite often. Ever see what happens to a perch reeled up from water that deep or deeper? Arguments can be made that those fish caught that deep and are undersized can be turned back, but I would say the majority of those fish aren't going to make it - is that enough of an "ethical" reason to not fish that deep? Where does such a line get drawn?
> 
> All told, I would compare hook and line fishing vs spearing to something like deer hunting with a crossbow vs a long bow - both have a following and a valid purpose with pro/con arguments to each. Important element to all of this is learning and following the ethical practice of game harvest along with safety and respect of fellow sportsman, irregardless of what legal method is chosen.


Do you fish in that deep of water 60 -30" of water ?
I went with a friend to Muskegon lake we fish perch very deep we did keep every fish because we knew they wouldn't live ! I have fished Gull lake in very deep water for bluegills and I did keep all ! An ethical person behind the spear will be certain of the fish that he wants to take , But Joe Moron won't !

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## Waif

Drake said:


> Okay then let's look at it from this perspective , We all know littering is a bad thing everywhere !!
> So what are these people that leave this trash on the lake near the lake what are they thinking !
> Some people or should I say most people do have their limits !
> But I've seen way too many people that just don't give a damn !! I know of people that take more fish than they are limited to , I know people would take fish out of season ! And if I know one or two people that will do that how many more are out there !
> In my opinion I just can't see it !!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Ahh.
It's a people littering and violating thing. Not the people that are spearing thing.
You have legit concerns.
Not sure it's directed accurately , but both litter and violating is offensive.


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## GWGjr

Drake said:


> Do you fish in that deep of water 60 -30" of water ?
> I went with a friend to Muskegon lake we fish perch very deep we did keep every fish because we knew they wouldn't live ! I have fished Gull lake in very deep water for bluegills and I did keep all ! An ethical person behind the spear will be certain of the fish that he wants to take , But Joe Moron won't !


Yes, I hook and line fish in waters that deep for perch, deeper for other species. I keep what comes up due to the air bladder issue, but to your point, does Joe Moron? Likely not. Could be they simply don't know, or could be they simply don't care. And that's really what all this boils down to.... You can educate those that don't know, but you can't fix stupid.


----------



## Drake

Yes sir that's my point you can't fix stupid !!

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## zer0

I agree, spearing is like archery. In that one has to engage their game in close enough to have a positive ID regarding legality and intention of harvest. A spear is a tool used in sight fishing. Keyword: Sight

Standard hook and line fishing however employs a different approach. Most often this method does not have a direct line of sight with the intended target. Thus limiting the ability to ensure legality and intent of harvest until after the catch.

Furthermore it's a sad day when sportsman turn on each other within the small ranks of ourselves. Spewing bile, holding grudges, splitting a divide with one another. You may see another sportsman engaging in an act you may not agree with, but to those whom do not engage in the outdoors pursuit, you too are just as guilty by association.


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## Drake

Look ,
If this happens to become legal so be it . If you want to do it and I don't , That's what we like to do . And I do like to hear the word ethical , and keep what you kill 

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## maddiedog

I think we can all agree that most of us that regularly contribute here won't be there issue with any of the issues. Just like everything there's slobs that ruin everything. When I pull in the school parking lot on a Monday morning I can promise that our playground that has a very nice pavilion will be loaded with trash. Fast food wrappers and bags will be thrown 10' from trash barrels. Not allowing something because of slobs is a poor excuse. I think the internet has actually expanded awareness of marking holes better. It was widely accepted to stand blocks on end in either end of hole. I never thought about snow mobiles possibly hitting them. Once it was pointed out to me I never do it and brush it in. I bet you can see my hole a half mile away.


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## swampbuck

Firefighter said:


> 1 - Because of education, I personally have seen and more hole marking.
> 
> 2 - Spearing harvest may push some waters of panfish angling past sustainability? A stretch, but it warrants research.
> 
> 3 - I'm assuming you're talking about a Higgins slot. You propose a slot for "trophy" pike, but ferociously oppose APR's for deer which arguably increase "trophy" potential...
> 
> I'm curious as to the difference, but it's really not the point of the thread. I'll acknowledge points 1&2.


Actually our groups intent was to reduce harvest, to maintain the fishery with the large increase in pressure that has occured... it's not like the lake is overrun with pike. 

Next time we will keep it local



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## wyandot

sureshot006 said:


> Why the opposition to a hole marking law?
> 
> 10" holes can definitely soak a leg. You wont fall right in though.


You got that right, and a size 12 boot will go right in if you're in full stride.


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## Quackkiller

Would gladly support spearing for panfish! I already have a few lakes in mind 

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## wyandot

I'm for it. If the tribe can spear whatever they want, every licensed fisherman should be allowed to as well.


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## Sparky23

zer0 said:


> I wonder which category the negative reactions fall into?
> 
> opposed, on the grounds of a desire not to participate
> opposed, on the grounds to block participation for others


I would say no do to idiots not marking holes. Idiots spearing bass...walleye. I wouldn't overly care either way but it will never happen imo.


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## Drake

There are more (slob) so called sportsman out and about then you realize ..

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## GWGjr

Sparky23 said:


> I would say no do to idiots not marking holes. Idiots spearing bass...walleye. I wouldn't overly care either way but it will never happen imo.


Slippery slope when the reasoning for not supporting a group's right to do something is to stop "idiots" from potentially participating...


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## Whitetail_hunter

Sparky23 said:


> I would say no do to idiots not marking holes. Idiots spearing bass...walleye. I wouldn't overly care either way but it will never happen imo.


Violators will be violators, doesn't matter hook and line, Spears, nets etc. Therefore that argument is null and void. As far as unmarked holes go that has been discussed already and it seems the spearing community would also be behind a hole marking law.


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## sureshot006

Whitetail_hunter said:


> it seems the spearing community would also be behind a hole marking law.


That's not my interpretation. Maybe I'm missing something


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## Sparky23

GWGjr said:


> Slippery slope when the reasoning for not supporting a group's right to do something is to stop "idiots" from potentially participating...


Slippery s also true LOL. I really don't see the need to go out and spear bluegill I understand that it's cool when you can spare jumbo perch on lake st. Clair but aren't normally biting I've always actually wanted to try it I have absolutely nothing against it it's just not something that excites me personally and one benefit me personally and I can see more negatives personally than I can't see positives coming from it that's the only reason that I would say no if it went through I wouldn't be upset


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## Whitetail_hunter

sureshot006 said:


> That's not my interpretation. Maybe I'm missing something


Depends who you are asking I guess. Looks like you are somewhat right as the MDAA SE chapter president liked your post. I'm generally against anymore government regulation but don't see at all how a hole marking law could hurt a thing. Those who leave unmarked spearing wholes make the rest look bad.


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## whitetail&walleye

Sounds like a riot with something like a frog gig. 

A spearing season on saginaw bay for walleye would be cool too

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## Flag Up

I would be game to spearing pannies!


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## eucman

Firefighter said:


> Fisheries Order 219.18 specifies spearing regulations, and currently panfish spearing through the ice is not allowed, with the exception of perch on Lake St. Clair.
> 
> Fishing license sales have precipitously fallen since their peak of approximately 2 million in the late 80's. Youth recruitment and retention is paramount to reduce this trend and preserve resources for future generations. Opportunities providing high levels of action create an excellent chance for youth to establish an early and potentially lasting love of the outdoors. Panfish spearing has the potential to be just this gateway activity. Equipment required is minimal, it would be enjoyed from the warmth of a shanty, and the visual stimulation combined with the physical action and alertness of actively "hunting " plentiful species, albeit in a challenging way, would thoroughly enjoyed by youth and adults alike.
> 
> I'd like to hear thoughts both in favor of, or opposed to, and gauge interest.
> 
> All constructive input is appreciated.


Interesting topic and conversation! I am thinking about my 50 years of experience on LSC where I have always been allowed to spear perch but have never done so.
My brother lives in the Sault and fishes for/spears whitefish and Menominee. Jigging catches some but those that refuse to bite may feel the steel.
While perch fishing with a bud on LSC last winter we watched more than a couple really nice fish drift in then mosey out. I mentioned maybe I should invest in a spear. He was appalled! “If you aren’t skilled enough to get them to bite you shouldn’t make up for it by “cheating!”
My reasoning was we were skilled enough to find or attract fish to a 5’x5’ area there still would be skill involved hitting a little fish!
At any rate I support it but doubt there would be a lot more people brought into the sport because of it
Not to get too deep in the weeds but; why is it the spearing season is limited? Why don’t the regs say you can spear pike and perch “through the ice” on LSC ?


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## AllSpecieAngler

sureshot006 said:


> That's not my interpretation. Maybe I'm missing something


I think you are missing something. Most avid spear fisherman already do it. I am in favor of any hole over 8" needing to be marked. Most don't want it made into law because they already do it and don't like extra regulation.

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## sureshot006

AllSpecieAngler said:


> I think you are missing something. Most avid spear fisherman already do it. I am in favor of any hole over 8" needing to be marked. Most don't want it made into law because they already do it and don't like extra regulation.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G820 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I didnt miss anything actually... what you said is exactly what I thought the reason was


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## Martian

I would be for it. Just for those times when I am spearing and seeing nothing but panners, and this year , I did buy a perch spear, but I live in flint, not sure how many times i will get to go down there


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## Duke

Very interesting topic and some good discussion. Unfortunately, as with every good question it seems there's never a simple Yes or No answer... Ogres are like onions. 


Gamekeeper said:


> the same disingenuous canard was used by the "Michigan Pheasant Initiative" to sleaze half a million for a renewed "put-n-take" pheasant program to "reinvigorate youth participation" in pheasant hu nting.


Sorry for the brief tangent to the spearing topic, but Gamekeeper you are off base. Yes it was stupid for supporters to say the Pheasant Hunting Initiative was "for the kids" , but that term was not used in the legislation and you go far to say it was sleaze:
-It was clearly billed as put & take for all hunter participation 
-There were a couple special hunts staged for kids 
-The amount was actually $260,000
-It was voted in by the legislature as a budget line item (transparent)
-Have you ever fished for stocked fish?
-I'm no big government spender, but I'd bet the return on investment to the state on this one was very good. Did you see the release site game areas? Very heavy participation. Not to mention the money was paid to Michigan pheasant farms to raise & release them.

Sorry, back to topic. And great job by the spearing supporters keeping it level headed


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## METTLEFISH

Sure, lets open all waters to snagging as well. Spearing panfish. JFC whats next. And they wonder why people are exiting hunting and fishing.


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## Whitetail_hunter

JFK? 
Wrong forum.

Panfish snagging sound like it would take some serious skills.


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## Gamekeeper

Whitetail_hunter said:


> JFK?
> Wrong forum.
> 
> Panfish snagging sound like it would take some serious skills.


Nope
You just float over the beds, and rip them out.


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## Whitetail_hunter

Gamekeeper said:


> Nope
> You just float over the beds, and rip them out.


What, you mean there is something easier than getting a bedded panfish to bite? Get real.

Troll someone else.


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## Drake

Gamekeeper said:


> Nope
> You just float over the beds, and rip them out.


Spear in hand .... 
I could see someone doing just that !!

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## Mr. Botek

Drake said:


> Spear in hand ....
> I could see someone doing just that !!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Nope. 

Allow the spearing of panfish under the same rules as pike & muskie.
Spearing season starts on 1 Dec and ends 15 March, and only through the ice. This means that even if its between those dates and there is no ice, its illegal to spear. 

This is just my thought, but from a few of the comments it's clear that one large challenge would be dispelling people's misconceptions, myths and ignorance of what spearing through the ice entails, both it's advantages and limitations. This is a general statement, if you feel offended, I'd like to apologize to absolutely no one.

Remember, you wanted this.


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## Mn bum

I started spearing pike this year. I can assure you it's 10x harder than using a tipup. Just finding a lake with enough clarity to spear is difficult. Then you only have one hole to use instead of a spread over 200'. On top of that you need to hit a pike that is definitely not impressed by the decoys. I'm all for it. If your worried about decimating the population of panfish, give pike spearing a try. You'll see for yourself how much more difficult it is.


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## Drake

But isn't that the sport of it ?

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## Drake

I'm not thinking it will decimate the population I'm thinking there will be a lot of dead fish lying about that nobody wants to clean !!

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## Mn bum

That would be wanton waste. I wouldn't think people would just start breaking laws because they have a spear in their hands. 


Drake said:


> I'm not thinking it will decimate the population I'm thinking there will be a lot of dead fish lying about that nobody wants to clean !!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Mr. Botek

Drake said:


> I'm not thinking it will decimate the population I'm thinking there will be a lot of dead fish lying about that nobody wants to clean !!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Unlike hook and line fishing, with spearing you actually have to see each individual fish then you can decide if you would like to spear it, then you have to actually have the skill to do so. No ethical angler, regardless of fishing method, would choose to harvest fish they don't intend to use. What would make you think that people that can see the fish they want, that is of sufficient size to satisfy them as a "keeper" and then actually kill it, would leave it? That simple isn't logical. 

Remember, you wanted this.


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## Drake

And some people are not logical !!

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## Mr. Botek

Mn bum said:


> That would be wanton waste. I wouldn't think people would just start breaking laws because they have a spear in their hands.


I may be wrong but I don't think Michigan has a wonton waste law. A good CO would have no problem using their imagination and the abundance of laws to come up with a violation. First off the top of my head would be littering.

Remember, you wanted this.


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## Drake

Above and below !

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## Mr. Botek

Drake said:


> And some people are not logical !!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I've been down this road before. I won't attempt to argue emotions with logic. Perhaps someone will engage you. 

Remember, you wanted this.


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## Drake

No need to engage !
I just don't have that much faith in most of mankind ! Some will most won't ! If something like this doesn't pass then we won't have to worry ..
If it does pass we'll just wait and see ..

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## whitetail&walleye

Drake said:


> I'm not thinking it will decimate the population I'm thinking there will be a lot of dead fish lying about that nobody wants to clean !!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


What? Why?

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## zer0

@Drake 
Mankind is a very interesting species indeed. I can think of none other that blocks itself from engagement in the food web, by way of shame.


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## Gamekeeper

Whitetail_hunter said:


> What, you mean there is something easier than getting a bedded panfish to bite? Get real.
> 
> Troll someone else.


I’m not trolling anybody.

I’ve seen it done.

A daredevil spoon, drop it in the bed when he comes back to tend, fish on

It hadn’t gone unnoticed by me that gigging panfish on the beds could very easily clear out a small lake if the fisherman chose to.

I don’t think you can legislate ethics.


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## BlackRhino

Yes, who cares how they get in ur bucket. To each his own as long as it's legal.

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## BlackRhino

Drake said:


> No need to engage !
> I just don't have that much faith in most of mankind ! Some will most won't ! If something like this doesn't pass then we won't have to worry ..
> If it does pass we'll just wait and see ..
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Jeez dude, take a pill. Do you really think it could be that bad?

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## Whitetail_hunter

Gamekeeper said:


> I’m not trolling anybody.
> 
> I’ve seen it done.
> 
> A daredevil spoon, drop it in the bed when he comes back to tend, fish on
> 
> It hadn’t gone unnoticed by me that gigging panfish on the beds could very easily clear out a small lake if the fisherman chose to.
> 
> I don’t think you can legislate ethics.


Do you often see panfish bed under the ice or do you not know how to read?

They answer is no and no, now that's the last bite you get from me.


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## Gamekeeper

Whitetail_hunter said:


> Do you often see panfish bed under the ice or do you not know how to read?


I thought the conversation had broadened, apologies.

Perhaps opportunities through the ice may someday be expanded. It’s just a matter of convincing the people in charge of it.

I’m surprised this discussion has been around this site since at least 2005.
Must be someone in fisheries that’s against it.


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## trucker3573

Gamekeeper said:


> The OP actually thinks that expanding a sport practiced by almost no one, while thousands are book and line fishing already, is somehow the answer to declining license sales?
> 
> Hint, allowing people to spear bluegill isn't going to get Johnny off the couch, and to put down his nintendo.


Agree 100%. To put it even further, I can guarantee anyone not buying a license and getting out on the water in the summer sure as hell ain’t freezin their ass off out there in the winter 


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## Martian

there are tons of guys who spear and I do not know what the effect on lic. sales would be, but i would love to see it state wide. I own a boat that has not left the drive in 3 years, I do much better in the winter. And so far of getting Johhny off the couch, he can play with his nintendo, or play with himself, I would like it for my winter season.


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## METTLEFISH

My experience with "spearer's" is they'll do anything to kill fish. Trespass, out of season fishes, undersize fishes. Anything. I've' never speared, because I've seen how those that do - do. If one can not entice a fish into taking a bait, why should you be allowed to kill a fish that others have had to let swim. IMO there is no skill in spearing at all. Only brief mishaps that allow for the occasional kill of a fish that could otherwise continue to grow and procreate and provide opportunities for the angling community. I grew up on a large pond that does not and has not allowed spearing on it. Because of that it has had a good population of large Northern's. It's a continual battle to prevent poachers from entering and spearing them. Even in Summer we have to patrol to keep the "bow spearers" from killing the large Gar's that have had the chance to grow to very large sizes because there is no spearing allowed. Catching these large Gar is a challenge, and a lot of fun. Sticking them with a spear and burying them (illegal) is a waste of resource. I hate to think of the waste and poaching that may occur with a spearing season for Panfish. Most other states are placing seasons, slot limits and lower bag limits to enhance the Panfish populations that have been decimated in recent years. The advancement of fishing gear and electronics have had a large impact on Panfish. Panfish/Sunfish are the primary food source of gamefish, when their numbers are lowered, and the average size becomes smaller, the game fish take a hit from caloric deficit. I suppose I would support a law allowing low income people to receive a stamp allowing them to spear to attain food if necessary, however from what some of you say, spearing isn't an efficient method of harvest anyway.


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## Shoeman

METTLEFISH said:


> My experience with "spearer's" is they'll do anything to kill fish. Trespass, out of season fishes, undersize fishes. Anything. I've' never speared, because I've seen how those that do - do. If one can not entice a fish into taking a bait, why should you be allowed to kill a fish that others have had to let swim. IMO there is no skill in spearing at all. Only brief mishaps that allow for the occasional kill of a fish that could otherwise continue to grow and procreate and provide opportunities for the angling community. I grew up on a large pond that does not and has not allowed spearing on it. Because of that it has had a good population of large Northern's. It's a continual battle to prevent poachers from entering and spearing them. Even in Summer we have to patrol to keep the "bow spearers" from killing the large Gar's that have had the chance to grow to very large sizes because there is no spearing allowed. Catching these large Gar is a challenge, and a lot of fun. Sticking them with a spear and burying them (illegal) is a waste of resource. I hate to think of the waste and poaching that may occur with a spearing season for Panfish. Most other states are placing seasons, slot limits and lower bag limits to enhance the Panfish populations that have been decimated in recent years. The advancement of fishing gear and electronics have had a large impact on Panfish. Panfish/Sunfish are the primary food source of gamefish, when their numbers are lowered, and the average size becomes smaller, the game fish take a hit from caloric deficit. I suppose I would support a law allowing low income people to receive a stamp allowing them to spear to attain food if necessary, however from what some of you say, spearing isn't an efficient method of harvest anyway.



TL;DR


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## Mr. Botek

What does TLDR mean? Haven't seen that acronym. 

Remember, you wanted this.


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## garyb

METTLEFISH said:


> My experience with "spearer's" is they'll do anything to kill fish. Trespass, out of season fishes, undersize fishes. Anything. I've' never speared, because I've seen how those that do - do. If one can not entice a fish into taking a bait, why should you be allowed to kill a fish that others have had to let swim. IMO there is no skill in spearing at all. Only brief mishaps that allow for the occasional kill of a fish that could otherwise continue to grow and procreate and provide opportunities for the angling community. I grew up on a large pond that does not and has not allowed spearing on it. Because of that it has had a good population of large Northern's. It's a continual battle to prevent poachers from entering and spearing them. Even in Summer we have to patrol to keep the "bow spearers" from killing the large Gar's that have had the chance to grow to very large sizes because there is no spearing allowed. Catching these large Gar is a challenge, and a lot of fun. Sticking them with a spear and burying them (illegal) is a waste of resource. I hate to think of the waste and poaching that may occur with a spearing season for Panfish. Most other states are placing seasons, slot limits and lower bag limits to enhance the Panfish populations that have been decimated in recent years. The advancement of fishing gear and electronics have had a large impact on Panfish. Panfish/Sunfish are the primary food source of gamefish, when their numbers are lowered, and the average size becomes smaller, the game fish take a hit from caloric deficit. I suppose I would support a law allowing low income people to receive a stamp allowing them to spear to attain food if necessary, however from what some of you say, spearing isn't an efficient method of harvest anyway.


in my opinion ''very well said''


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## GWGjr

METTLEFISH said:


> I'd expect that to be the response of many to any written regulations that would accompany such a new provision.
> 
> I have. I've had to remove trespassers that even violated their hosts privilege to fish, and snuck in spears to poach. Facts are facts. I watch the spearers on other local waters where spearing is allowed. Dogfish speared and tossed on the ice, Bullfrogs taken out of season. The list goes on. Placing more spears on the ice would only entice the bad apples to violate IMO. In fact, a taxidermy friend of mine, one with National recognition that does spear told me of how his father who owned a local blacksmith shop in Milford made a steel Northern and painted it and placed it in the Huron River in Milford. He loved all the work repairing poachers spears that attempted to take this large spawning steel Pike!


BIG difference between a spear fisher and a poacher using a spear,,,, really big difference. You're putting everyone in the same class simply because they use a spear? So by that reasoning, anyone using a firearm to shoot a deer should be lumped into a single group whether you're a licensed, ethical hunter or a violator that jack lights that 12 point before season opens. 

Also, have you ever had to remove trespassers that have snuck in with,,, <gasp>,,, fishing poles? I would find it most interesting to find out who CO's have issued more tickets to for violations - hook and line or spear. Bottom line is violators will abuse the rules by whatever means they find convenient and there are slobs in every aspect of our outdoor pursuits and they need to recognized by their ACTIONS irregardless of their methods. 

Here's a pic I grabbed off another site where a discussion is ongoing in regards to the ethics of fishermen.


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## BlackRhino

METTLEFISH said:


> Dead is dead, however of the 10 fish CAUGHT by hook and line, 100% of them opted to participate in the game. Of the 10 speared, not one was caught by playing the game.


Ahh for cripes sake..."opted to participate in the game". What a bunch of malarkey

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## BlackRhino

According the mettlefish, if you spear you will trespass and poach, period.

Apparently mettle doesn't realize that one could much more easily catch a full on a tear drop than throwing a spear down the hole at it. It's just not that easy. "Participate in the game" is a farsical comment. 

I don't spear Pike on ice anymore, but I would support a new amendment, 2A "Right to Bear Spears". 



Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## on a call

METTLEFISH said:


> Not confused. Perhaps you could explain all the closed to spearing waters on pages 16/17 of the fishing regulations. I could also "rant" about the years long sting the DNR had in place on Horseshoe Creek in Washtenaw County to catch the poachers that wiped out the large Northerns that inhabited Horseshoe Lk. and spawned in the marsh upstream by spearing them. I realize there is a Heritage with you guys, I'm fine with that. However, I do not think opening more species to forced compliance is a good thing. I've spent what would of been my ''spearing hours" watching large Northerns and learning to catch them. Having them inspect and decline baits - only to have them come up and devour the soft finned morsels (suckers to 18'') after removing the hooks at the end of the day and letting them sink to the bottom - repeatedly - (prior to the ban on doing so) was frustrating. However learning to place that sucker on the bottom dead, and that they'd then eat them was awesome, and I could and did release them to be caught or attempted to be caught again.


Forgive me for using the word " confused " I was the one confused, thinking your comments were without knowledge. I was wrong. To me it sounds like your knowledge should be used and passed on. If it has not already been. It is those who know the pressures put on our resources and that need adjusting and how to adjust that need to be heard. 

I am not an experienced spearer...in fact I am only a beginner. I have done tip up fishing and saw how good it can be. The nice thing is it can be C&R. However I enjoy eatting pike always have. I enjoy learning new things and you have shed some light, thank you.


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## Scout 2

BlackRhino said:


> According the mettlefish, if you spear you will trespass and poach, period.
> 
> Apparently mettle doesn't realize that one could much more easily catch a full on a tear drop than throwing a spear down the hole at it. It's just not that easy. "Participate in the game" is a farsical comment.
> 
> I don't spear Pike on ice anymore, but I would support a new amendment, 2A "Right to Bear Spears".
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I spear ed for many year and enjoyed it very much. I would support a bill as long as it called out certain lakes. I feel it could be very harmfull to smalllake. I watch the vids you guys put on here and I still get that excitement when the fish swims into the hole


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## BlackRhino

Scout 2 said:


> I spear ed for many year and enjoyed it very much. I would support a bill as long as it called out certain lakes. I feel it could be very harmfull to smalllake. I watch the vids you guys put on here and I still get that excitement when the fish swims into the hole


Yes, as stated I don't spear anymore. We would catch gills during the off time, pass up the smaller Pike during 'prime time". We always made sure that the fish we tried to spear were legal, past legal. 

That's why I have an issue with some of the comments. Not everybody that enjoys spearing is a trespasser or a poacher. It was fun but got to be alot of work with dragging the shanty on and off. I miss it but don't miss the work.

With the excitement in mettles comments, something or alot of somethings must have gone bad. That sucks. But to basically call anyone out that Spears is simply wrong. 

It's like the long now/compound bow/crossbow hard debate to me. As long as it's legal go for it and enjoy the great outdoors 

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## BlackRhino

Scout 2 said:


> I spear ed for many year and enjoyed it very much. I would support a bill as long as it called out certain lakes. I feel it could be very harmfull to smalllake. I watch the vids you guys put on here and I still get that excitement when the fish swims into the hole


Yes, as stated I don't spear anymore. We would catch gills during the off time, pass up the smaller Pike during 'prime time". We always made sure that the fish we tried to spear were legal, past legal. 

That's why I have an issue with some of the comments. Not everybody that enjoys spearing is a trespasser or a poacher. It was fun but got to be alot of work with dragging the shanty on and off. I miss it but don't miss the work.

With the excitement in mettles comments, something or alot of somethings must have gone bad. That sucks. But to basically call anyone out that Spears is simply wrong. 

It's like the long bow/compound bow/crossbow hard debate to me. As long as it's legal go for it and enjoy the great outdoors 

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Scout 2

BlackRhino said:


> Yes, as stated I don't spear anymore. We would catch gills during the off time, pass up the smaller Pike during 'prime time". We always made sure that the fish we tried to spear were legal, past legal.
> 
> That's why I have an issue with some of the comments. Not everybody that enjoys spearing is a trespasser or a poacher. It was fun but got to be alot of work with dragging the shanty on and off. I miss it but don't miss the work.
> 
> With the excitement in mettles comments, something or alot of somethings must have gone bad. That sucks. But to basically call anyone out that Spears is simply wrong.
> 
> It's like the long bow/compound bow/crossbow hard debate to me. As long as it's legal go for it and enjoy the great outdoors
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Very well said and that is the way I feel. It was a lot of work but the peace you got from sitting out there was worth it


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## zer0

garyb said:


> one should go out to lake Chemung when they are having the panfish contest in feb. and take a survey there and not on this site , you many get a different poll. a lot of fisherman have never heard of this site.




When is the tourney? I might be free to come out and help educate the spearing population on better hole marking practices. Lived there for years as a kid, it would be nice to visit that lake once again. Is Pete's Party store still over on Hughes?


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## garyb

zer0 said:


> When is the tourney? I might be free to come out and help educate the spearing population on better hole marking practices. Lived there for years as a kid, it would be nice to visit that lake once again. Is Pete's Party store still over on Hughes?


feb.15 2020......sorry the party store has gone out of busineww


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## mondrella

I am kinda baffled by some of the responses against panfish spearing. Hook and line is harder than spearing?? Really?? Maybe if you really suck as a fisherman. A person is so much more mobile hook and line fishing. This is all about thru the ice. Not out of a boat or moving thru spawning marsh poaching fish. Totally different you might as well compare the towing capabilities of a ford 150 to a Kenworth tractor. 
A school of panfish comes in and you drop a jig and entice a fish to bite in a Darkhouse you can pop several from the school. If you cant get fish to bite or positively react to a presentation you have a lot to learn about panfishing. When i panfish i fish with guys who can read their flashers and tell exactly what they need to do to catch a fish by how it comes in. They know how to use their tools and catch fish like few can. Spearing you toss a spear in the hole whats going to happen to that school of panfish?? Simple really they split. Good chances that school is not coming right back. At least gills. I have speared Northerns with gills in the hole and they are gone for a bit. I can use a pole in the shanty and pluck off nearly every good gill Crappie and perch that come in. 
People really have a misunderstanding what spearing is. Its much more selective method of harvest. I seen 4 legal Northerns Saturday. I took one just over the 24 inch mark. So far this season i have seen 7 legal fish in 2 sits and taken 2 fish. I dont know a single dark house guy who spears every fish. Its more about seeing them.


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## Bob D

jasonmichalski said:


> Hole marking should be done by education not regulation, regulations are part of the problem, when you have to worried about everything you do resulting in a ticket of course it’s easier to stay home in front of the game console.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


LMAO, that is a stupid statement tailor made for the idiocracy. Oh dear, I can't remember to mark the hole. I better stay home and play my vidja games.


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## RLWagner

METTLEFISH said:


> Dead is dead, however of the 10 fish CAUGHT by hook and line, 100% of them opted to participate in the game. Of the 10 speared, not one was caught by playing the game.


The deer that catches a slug, bolt, bullet, ball or buckshot did not participate anymore than a bluegill. So what? It's still legal to harvest. It's a ridiculous point you try to make in arguing against selectives harvest by spear.

And comparing slugs spearing pike in a river to ethical spear fishermen is also non sense. You stereotype maximus. Most them folks with pitch forks I bet dont even spear through the ice, and prolly learned bad habits through the generations.

Your third arguement about poaching your waters is even more asinine. It's like saying we should stop hunting on public land because some people poach.

I agree with others here that your stereotyping and false characterizations of the spear fishing community do no one justice and make you look like a hater that is reaching for straws in an attempt to dissuade the possibility of a spearing season for pannies, only because you would not participate.

At least your stories were funny, not believable, but funny.


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## AllSpecieAngler

RLWagner said:


> The deer that catches a slug, bolt, bullet, ball or buckshot did not participate anymore than a bluegill. So what? It's still legal to harvest. It's a ridiculous point you try to make in arguing against selectives harvest by spear.
> 
> And comparing slugs spearing pike in a river to ethical spear fishermen is also non sense. You stereotype maximus. Most them folks with pitch forks I bet dont even spear through the ice, and prolly learned bad habits through the generations.
> 
> Your third arguement about poaching your waters is even more asinine. It's like saying we should stop hunting on public land because some people poach.
> 
> I agree with others here that your stereotyping and false characterizations of the spear fishing community do no one justice and make you look like a hater that is reaching for straws in an attempt to dissuade the possibility of a spearing season for pannies, only because you would not participate.
> 
> At least your stories were funny, not believable, but funny.


Nail on the head!

Sent from my LM-G820 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Lerms

Saying that kids wont get into spearing is insane, I have two daughter's, they can't stand looking at a 8 or 10 inch hole holding a jigging pole they get board fast. Now looking in a spear hole seeing fish and swimming decoys is a blast to them. It takes 3 times longer before they are board. If your kids are on their butts all day playing video games it could be how they were raised. My daughters love shooting, fishing and being in the woods with me. Just saying the decline in youth participation in hunting and fishing has a lot to do with the parents and their involvement in getting the said youth into the sport.


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## mondrella

Lerms said:


> Saying that kids wont get into spearing is insane, I have two daughter's, they can't stand looking at a 8 or 10 inch hole holding a jigging pole they get board fast. Now looking in a spear hole seeing fish and swimming decoys is a blast to them. It takes 3 times longer before they are board. If your kids are on their butts all day playing video games it could be how they were raised. My daughters love shooting, fishing and being in the woods with me. Just saying the decline in youth participation in hunting and fishing has a lot to do with the parents and their involvement in getting the said youth into the sport.


 Spot on!!


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## garyb

Lerms said:


> Saying that kids wont get into spearing is insane, I have two daughter's, they can't stand looking at a 8 or 10 inch hole holding a jigging pole they get board fast. Now looking in a spear hole seeing fish and swimming decoys is a blast to them. It takes 3 times longer before they are board. If your kids are on their butts all day playing video games it could be how they were raised. My daughters love shooting, fishing and being in the woods with me. Just saying the decline in youth participation in hunting and fishing has a lot to do with the parents and their involvement in getting the said youth into the sport.


I totally agree with the last part of your statement , except the first part . what if the kids were seeing fish swimming around in the 8 or 10 inch hole? I believe you can spook the fish faster with a spear than a hook with a bait on..just my .02 cents worth


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## mondrella

garyb said:


> I totally agree with the last part of your statement , except the first part . what if the kids were seeing fish swimming around in the 8 or 10 inch hole? I believe you can spook the fish faster with a spear than a hook with a bait on..just my .02 cents worth


You would spook fish with a spear. However spearing you are so much more part of the underwater world. Until you do it you wont understand. Its the best live youtube videos to kids.


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## garyb

mondrella said:


> You would spook fish with a spear. However spearing you are so much more part of the underwater world. Until you do it you wont understand. Its the best live youtube videos to kids.


I do understand , I have a underwater camera.and I love it, very educational


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## Scout 2

garyb said:


> I do understand , I have a underwater camera.and I love it, very educational


That would work somewhat but not the thrill you get staring down a hole and seeing fish first hand not on screen. You can learn what will spook them and what they are OK with. Then there is nothing like the thrill of staring down that hole and have a rat shoot out of the hole onto the floor of the shanty. LOL


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## on a call

Lerms said:


> Saying that kids wont get into spearing is insane, I have two daughter's, they can't stand looking at a 8 or 10 inch hole holding a jigging pole they get board fast. Now looking in a spear hole seeing fish and swimming decoys is a blast to them. It takes 3 times longer before they are board. If your kids are on their butts all day playing video games it could be how they were raised. My daughters love shooting, fishing and being in the woods with me. Just saying the decline in youth participation in hunting and fishing has a lot to do with the parents and their involvement in getting the said youth into the sport.


A lot of how kids view things is how they are raised. 
I have a feeling you are raising yours to enjoy life and the things that you can do...most miss out for sure !! 
I bet if one was to go to a high school and ask everyone there...have you ever looked into a spear hole...99 % or more would say no. However, if you were to ask who would like to...I bet 40% or more would say yes. 
So, well done Dad...keep up the good work. Let me know when they start building spears.


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## garyb

Scout 2 said:


> That would work somewhat but not the thrill you get staring down a hole and seeing fish first hand not on screen. You can learn what will spook them and what they are OK with. Then there is nothing like the thrill of staring down that hole and have a rat shoot out of the hole onto the floor of the shanty. LOL


all debateable…..to a point...staring down a hole and seeing a fish isn't very educational


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## mondrella

garyb said:


> all debateable…..to a point...staring down a hole and seeing a fish isn't very educational


SMH 

Shows you dont have a clue. I am on my third camera. I have seen more and learn more about fish and thier environment staring down a spear hole than any camera. A much bigger view spearing than the camera shows.


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## Scout 2

on a call said:


> A lot of how kids view things is how they are raised.
> I have a feeling you are raising yours to enjoy life and the things that you can do...most miss out for sure !!
> I bet if one was to go to a high school and ask everyone there...have you ever looked into a spear hole...99 % or more would say no. However, if you were to ask who would like to...I bet 40% or more would say yes.
> So, well done Dad...keep up the good work. Let me know when they start building spears.


I have a friend who was a high school teacher. He taught Ag class a CAD class and in the AG class they had one semester of rec outdoor sports. He asked me to be on the judge panel on several of there discussions they had. He taught the kids different ways to fish and spearing was one of them. In the CAD class he had the kids that took his ag class to design a spear for ic spearing. I got to judge the end results along with him and several other ag teachers from other local schools. They came up with some very creative spears. I always wondered if they ever used them. As for the outdoor rec part I asked him if he taught them some of the thing we use to do. He said he did not think the princioal would approve of that


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## garyb

mondrella said:


> SMH
> 
> Shows you dont have a clue. I am on my third camera. I have seen more and learn more about fish and thier environment staring down a spear hole than any camera. A much bigger view spearing than the camera shows.


for one thing he didn't say looking down at a spearing hole. I would suggest you get a under water that has more of a view than a few feet.


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## Scout 2

garyb said:


> all debateable…..to a point...staring down a hole and seeing a fish isn't very educational


Have you ever done it. I use to spend hours just watching small fish in the hole and never get bored


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## Scout 2

garyb said:


> for one thing he didn't say looking down at a spearing hole. I would suggest you get a under water that has more of a view than a few feet.


I have a camera and yes they are nice and you can learn from them but to me it is no comparision to the real thing where any move or shadow can spook a fish


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## mondrella

9


garyb said:


> for one thing he didn't say looking down at a spearing hole. I would suggest you get a under water that has more of a view than a few feet.


Guess my Aquaviews HD7I is not a good enough camera. Also have the 715. Had a Marcum was not thrilled with it.


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## RLWagner

garyb said:


> for one thing he didn't say looking down at a spearing hole. I would suggest you get a under water that has more of a view than a few feet.


Having a 30" x 5' hole In the ice affords the viewer quite the footprint. Top floor, mid and bottom floor of the water column. A camera is not nearly as effective. 

A spearing hole allows one to watch bottom dwelling crustaceans, mud puppies an water insects to name a few. All while schooling and loner fish interact above. 

As well as he occassionally muskrats that will visit and float in the hole or climb up on the edge.

It's an educational opportunity that cannot be gained via the artificial confines of an aquarium.


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## garyb

Scout 2 said:


> I have a camera and yes they are nice and you can learn from them but to me it is no comparision to the real thing where any move or shadow can spook a fish


yes I understand what you mean and I see the big challenge before the fish spooks and hopefully the spear get him first,lol


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## Waif

While often something to watch ,(often educational in itself) a spearing hole teaches patience too. And delayed gratification. Flexibility is not uncommon in fishing or hunting and fits in too.

When using a fishfinder I'm trying to catch them. Whatever they are.
A spearing holes "catch" or kill with a spear involves a minority of what is seen.
Sure , we can use a fishing rod and risk spooking larger fish , but that's o.k. too if patience or interests vary with conditions..

A camera spies on fish , that's fun. But more synthetic than peering through a hole.
If some one is a technology fan and has tried an actual visual through the ice without one , they can go back to watching a screen and it's fine by me. To each their own....

Used to be a guy with a plastic shopping bag that went from hole to hole spying out perch by laying on the ice. He caught perch and had fun. Nothin wrong with legal fun.


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## garyb

RLWagner said:


> Having a 30" x 5' hole In the ice affords the viewer quite the footprint. Top floor, mid and bottom floor of the water column. A camera is not nearly as effective.
> 
> A spearing hole allows one to watch bottom dwelling crustaceans, mud puppies an water insects to name a few. All while schooling and loner fish interact above.
> 
> As well as he occassionally muskrats that will visit and float in the hole or climb up on the edge.
> 
> It's an educational opportunity that cannot be gained via the artificial confines of an aquarium.


to each is own !


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## garyb

RLWagner said:


> Having a 30" x 5' hole In the ice affords the viewer quite the footprint. Top floor, mid and bottom floor of the water column. A camera is not nearly as effective.
> 
> A spearing hole allows one to watch bottom dwelling crustaceans, mud puppies an water insects to name a few. All while schooling and loner fish interact above.
> 
> As well as he occassionally muskrats that will visit and float in the hole or climb up on the edge.
> 
> It's an educational opportunity that cannot be gained via the artificial confines of an aquarium.


I apologize you can see a lot with that size hole 30''x5' feet, never realized that they were that big.


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## RLWagner

garyb said:


> I apologize you can see a lot with that size hole 30''x5' feet, never realized that they were that big.


Some are smaller, some larger. As mentoned earlier, take a sit or two with a spear fisherman one day and see what it is like. You may still not enjoy it, but it's worth trying.


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## RLWagner




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## Scout 2

garyb said:


> yes I understand what you mean and I see the big challenge before the fish spooks and hopefully the spear get him first,lol


It is not only the ones you would try to spear it is the smaller fish like gills and perch. I had my shanty on a large lake in SW mich and in Feb I would fish out of it for specks. I just wish I could do the same yet today with my grandkids


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## on a call

Scout 2 said:


> I have a friend who was a high school teacher. He taught Ag class a CAD class and in the AG class they had one semester of rec outdoor sports. He asked me to be on the judge panel on several of there discussions they had. He taught the kids different ways to fish and spearing was one of them. In the CAD class he had the kids that took his ag class to design a spear for ic spearing. I got to judge the end results along with him and several other ag teachers from other local schools. They came up with some very creative spears. I always wondered if they ever used them. As for the outdoor rec part I asked him if he taught them some of the thing we use to do. He said he did not think the princioal would approve of that


wow...how long ago was this ?  I think it was awesome that he did that !! Nothing like learning stuff like that and having the opportunity to build your own spear...I just came from the fishing show and did not see any spears.


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## Lerms

I can say spearing does get youth involved.my children are proof. Young still and can't take them yet with this spotty ice this year. However small holes in the ice and these kids don't care. Saying use a camera to show them and watch fish is lame... just let them play video games at that point. I have clear water in 35 foot of water and a spear hole about 24x60 five or take a few inches. When my kids are with me I put up a guard rail that screws to the ice. All is safe. They LOVE the views, bugs, frogs, turtles and fish. All I'm saying is yea spearing can increase youth participation but only if parents participate also.

I was raised this way, like my kids. At one point in my life (teenager) I could care less, however once I got pass that in my life I went back to the outdoors and started giving my elders invites like they did to me and I would guess my children are going to do the same.


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## Lerms

Oh and saying spearing is easier is not true. I can limit out way faster on tip ups for pike or drill a ton of holes and jigging on pan fish. More area better chances. One spear hole has no chance in numbers. And the work involved to move when spearing is most likely not worth it until the next day.


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## Scout 2

on a call said:


> wow...how long ago was this ?  I think it was awesome that he did that !! Nothing like learning stuff like that and having the opportunity to build your own spear...I just came from the fishing show and did not see any spears.


This was around 2003 just before he retired


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