# Allegan Damn



## FISHON_JOHN (Jan 26, 2009)

Has anyone been doing any good fishing for salmon near the damn? Thinking of heading there this weekend to give it a try.


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## Treble (Sep 13, 2009)

My friends who live on the west side have told me they are doing pretty well down there. Good luck.


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## FISHON_JOHN (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks Treble, I think we will give it a try Saturday morning and see what happens. Maybe I'll get lucky and run into a steelhead or two!


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## The Fillet Show (Feb 26, 2008)

Just went out a couple days ago and it's slowed compared to last week. Haven't caught many salmon, but there has been alot of skams caught. We ended up 2 for 6, one skam and one king. Lost one other king and the rest were skams. Casting spoons worked best, tried some skein but only caught a cat fish and small mouth on it. Hope you get into them, good luck and let us know how you do.


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## FISHON_JOHN (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I will probably focus on steelhead. Will post how we do.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

The Fillet Show said:


> Just went out a couple days ago and it's slowed compared to last week. Haven't caught many salmon, but there has been alot of skams caught. We ended up 2 for 6, one skam and one king. Lost one other king and the rest were skams. Casting spoons worked best, tried some skein but only caught a cat fish and small mouth on it. Hope you get into them, good luck and let us know how you do.


 What makes you sure they were skams? My guess is winter steelhead strain.


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

Multispeciestamer said:


> What makes you sure they were skams? My guess is winter steelhead strain.


Dude, most steelhead this time of year are skams. I would venture to say 90% plus this time of year. You are obviously very passionate about steelhead and such, but sometimes you open your mouth and you obviously have zero clue what you are talking about. 

There are a number of days on certain rivers where mid winter on certain streches a good amount of our catch is holdover skamania. Lots of the fall fish in the Joe are actually skams. Right now, its most of the steelhead.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> What makes you sure they were skams? My guess is winter steelhead strain.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> What makes you sure they were skams? My guess is winter steelhead strain.


What makes you think they were Winter strain?


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## RAD FISH (Oct 17, 2006)

quest32a said:


> Dude, most steelhead this time of year are skams. I would venture to say 90% plus this time of year. You are obviously very passionate about steelhead and such, but sometimes you open your mouth and you obviously have zero clue what you are talking about.
> 
> There are a number of days on certain rivers where mid winter on certain streches a good amount of our catch is holdover skamania. Lots of the fall fish in the Joe are actually skams. Right now, its most of the steelhead.



:: Once again our new local expert is wrong, not to say there isn't some manistee's mixed in but the majority are skams. As far as Kings go is there any river in Mich. that this hasn't been the worst year ever? I know many of the reasons why, just ask'n.


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

we have discussed this many times before. The ONLY way to be sure if a steelhead is a summer run or winter/spring run is by scale samples and biologists test. Its not the eye color or size of fish/tail/head. Some skinny long fish are winter fish, just like some fat short fish are skamania.

Sure we all catch the slender.long fish and say they are skams, but that is not necessarily true. If you don't believe me, just make a phone call.

As far as the experts on this site go, we have allot of self proclaimed experts. Let's try to remember we all have a passion for the chrome, there are many ways to fish for them, their numbers will likely be down this year too.

The problem is in the lake where these fish spend the majority of their lives, and do almost all of their growing. Now back to the original author. This thread was about the Kalamazoo. There are some summer run action there that starts in July , but most of the fall fish caught in the Kazoo are indeed michigan fall/winter run steelhead. There are no plants of skams in the Kazoo, and a few drifters don't make a fishery there.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Spanky said:


> we have discussed this many times before. The ONLY way to be sure if a steelhead is a summer run or winter/spring run is by scale samples and biologists test. Its not the eye color or size of fish/tail/head. Some skinny long fish are winter fish, just like some fat short fish are skamania.
> 
> Sure we all catch the slender.long fish and say they are skams, but that is not necessarily true. If you don't believe me, just make a phone call.
> 
> ...


Spanky, 

In reference to right now and a bunch of steelhead being caught at Allegan Dam, I think we both know logically the majority of those fish are skamania strain steelhead. There is a lot more to knowing a fish is a skam than just being slender. You are indeed correct the only sure fire way of knowing is DNA testing but in this scenario I would say the odds are they were indeed skams. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter though, chrome is chrome and is fun either way which is really what matters. Hope you are doing well big guy.

Kory


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

#1 Michigan stocks more winter strain steelhead then skamanians

#2 That is not a normal skamanian river

I would have to say the odds are in my favor :lol:


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## gomer (Dec 30, 2000)

> #1 Michigan stocks more winter strain steelhead then skamanians
> 
> #2 That is not a normal skamanian river
> 
> I would have to say the odds are in my favor


I would have to say you have obviously not fished the Kzoo then


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## Sparky23 (Aug 15, 2007)

I love the its not a normal Skam river thing. Maybe not a stocked skam river, doesnt always mean its not one of the best.


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## Sell (Jan 24, 2002)

The odds are in your favor of sticking your foot in your mouth, again.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> #1 Michigan stocks more winter strain steelhead then skamanians
> 
> #2 That is not a normal skamanian river
> 
> I would have to say the odds are in my favor :lol:


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Hey I never said there wouldnt be a few stray fish. They catch dirfter skams all around the lake and different rivers. Also some of the guys ive talked that fish the allegan dam would call any steelhead a skamanian.

Sell I think you just dont like hearing something different then the normal. I am in no way stating that what I said is fact, but it has the potential to be correct.


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## Sell (Jan 24, 2002)

They are called Skamania not Skamanians, and I have been fishing them longer than you have been alive. Isn't it time for you to get back to school.


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## RAD FISH (Oct 17, 2006)

Spanky said:


> There are no plants of skams in the Kazoo, and a few drifters don't make a fishery there.



:: Unless you are being sarcastic about this comment with the wink, you are wrong. The mouth of the Zoo is not all that far from the St. Joe, hell we get a fishable number of stray skams in the Grand.


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

Are you guys gonna tell me that the Black is full of scams too!:lol:

MOSTLY winter fish, RP clips...............when they last did them.Been fishing the zoo for over 30 yrs, the fall run there is not MAJORITY scams and I Know that for a fact.
I don't know what you boys are smokin.

:Modified_


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## Spanky (Mar 21, 2001)

RAD FISH said:


> :: Unless you are being sarcastic about this comment with the wink, you are wrong. The mouth of the Zoo is not all that far from the St. Joe, hell we get a fishable number of stray skams in the Grand.



This is about ALLEGAN DAM! not the harbor mouth.

Thats a long ******* way to the dam in 80 degree water. Very few cold streams ,not like the Joe.


The Author wanted to know what the chances were to catch a salmon at allegan dam


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Spanky said:


> This is about ALLEGAN DAM! not the harbor mouth.
> 
> Thats a long ******* way to the dam in 80 degree water. Very few cold streams ,not like the Joe.
> 
> ...


Spanky, I guess I thought you knew more about your home river...


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## Still Wait'n (Nov 25, 2005)

Ugh, I agree with you Janice...I mean Spanky. Even though I've been doing this for 20+ years you have done more and know more about this fishery than I will ever know. And with that, Thank you for the things that you have done through out our time.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

You remembered your nicknames!


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## Alpha Buck (Jan 24, 2006)

Sell said:


> The odds are in your favor of sticking your foot in your mouth, again.


I'll say! This kid just does not quit.:lol: I was reading some of his other posts the other day and I am not sure if he is for real or if he is someone trolling around trying to get a rise out of others.


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## samsteel (Oct 6, 2008)

Alpha Buck said:


> or if he is someone trolling around trying to get a rise out of others.


i think that is giving him too much credit


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Oh guys take it easy on the kid! He's a young buck and its obvious he is interested in the fish and fishing for them. He's still in that stage of his fishing career where he thinks he knows more than most, a lot of this were there once. I was too, finally after more observation and less talking and overthinking I found out what spme of the real deal was all about out there, though I still have a ton to learn. I, fortunately, was lucky enough to get to know some of the better fisherman around my area ( I know that a few of you know some of these guys) as well as spend a lot more time on the water. He still spouts before he listens, he is just a high school kid though. You guys need to lighten up a bit, but he needs to read/listen from some of the older, more experienced guys out there. Just give it a few years and it will be fine. Maybe even offer him to get out there and try to share some knowledge with him instead of just having a railfest on him. I see that he kind of asks for it now and then, but I got ripped on a lot too when I was younger, and it is not a good feeling to be bullied. 

MST...you have your ideas/beliefs and some observation and are on the right path, but there are a lot of guys here and on the water that have been at this longer than you were even alive. Just back down now and then and open your mind. Listen to some of these guys and mix that with your own observations before drawing conclusions and theories. It is clear you have a passion, so stay with it, don't get discouraged keep fishing and enjoying the water. The biggest advice I can give to you is open your ears and mind...there is a lot to learn, just don't take the stance that your way of thinking is always right.


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## sstslammer (Aug 14, 2010)

Sell said:


> They are called Skamania not Skamanians, and I have been fishing them longer than you have been alive. Isn't it time for you to get back to school.


 does it matter that much what they are called? ive heard everything from skam to skamani to skamania to skamanians. just another name


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

OK, for this reason or that, I swore off even paying any attention to what goes on in the SW forum so, I'm going to temporarily break my self imposed exile and throw this strange concept called "logic" into this discussion.

Now, logically, why would a river that receives one of the smallest plants of Michigan strain steelhead on the west side suddenly get a push of steelhead at the exact same time as the heavily skamania planted St. Joe and when every other river in the state that gets planted far more heavily with Michigan fish not have d*** for steelhead in it yet? Why does this happen at the same time in both rivers every year? 

Secondly, I'm going to disagree that you can't tell the difference between one or the other. If you've been doing this long enough you can not only tell when a steelhead is one of the Wisconsin "mutt" strains, but you can certainly put 2 +2 together and figure out if a fish is a skam or not. To prove my point, I'm willing to take five guys--myself, Quest, Alpha Buck, Gomer and MP steelheader and do a random visual ID test of fish taken from the Kalamazoo every September. I'm willing to bet Quests' left testicle that when we say, "skam...skam...skam...skam" scale and other samples will prove that we're at least correct on 90% of the fish. 

Now...carry on and I shant interject on this again.


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## RDS-1025 (Dec 1, 2008)

sstslammer said:


> does it matter that much what they are called? ive heard everything from skam to skamani to skamania to skamanians. just another name


It doesn't really matter what you have heard them called.
It is really hard to sound credible if you can't even pronounce the name of the fish you seem to know so much about.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

thousandcasts said:


> OK, for this reason or that, I swore off even paying any attention to what goes on in the SW forum so, I'm going to temporarily break my self imposed exile and throw this strange concept called "logic" into this discussion.
> 
> Now, logically, why would a river that receives one of the smallest plants of Michigan strain steelhead on the west side suddenly get a push of steelhead at the exact same time as the heavily skamania planted St. Joe and when every other river in the state that gets planted far more heavily with Michigan fish not have d*** for steelhead in it yet? Why does this happen at the same time in both rivers every year?
> 
> ...


 Idk, I've see winter fish already, clipped pectoral fin on a few to boot. Check out this pic third fish from the left







This pic was taken on the pier about a month ago.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

RDS-1025 said:


> It doesn't really matter what you have heard them called.
> It is really hard to sound credible if you can't even pronounce the name of the fish you seem to know so much about.


 Skamania is no more credible then Skamanian both are just common names.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Trout King said:


> Oh guys take it easy on the kid! He's a young buck and its obvious he is interested in the fish and fishing for them. He's still in that stage of his fishing career where he thinks he knows more than most, a lot of this were there once. I was too, finally after more observation and less talking and overthinking I found out what spme of the real deal was all about out there, though I still have a ton to learn. I, fortunately, was lucky enough to get to know some of the better fisherman around my area ( I know that a few of you know some of these guys) as well as spend a lot more time on the water. He still spouts before he listens, he is just a high school kid though. You guys need to lighten up a bit, but he needs to read/listen from some of the older, more experienced guys out there. Just give it a few years and it will be fine. Maybe even offer him to get out there and try to share some knowledge with him instead of just having a railfest on him. I see that he kind of asks for it now and then, but I got ripped on a lot too when I was younger, and it is not a good feeling to be bullied.
> 
> MST...you have your ideas/beliefs and some observation and are on the right path, but there are a lot of guys here and on the water that have been at this longer than you were even alive. Just back down now and then and open your mind. Listen to some of these guys and mix that with your own observations before drawing conclusions and theories. It is clear you have a passion, so stay with it, don't get discouraged keep fishing and enjoying the water. The biggest advice I can give to you is open your ears and mind...there is a lot to learn, just don't take the stance that your way of thinking is always right.


 Thanks

Any of you guys ever at The Berrien Springs dam, hit me up. No joke.


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

I might be down that way soon.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

diztortion said:


> I might be down that way soon.


 shoot me a pm


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## Fishbone (Oct 10, 2008)

From a negative readers perspective, the same ole' repeated crap made my right nut roll off the chair, I was gut wrenching so hard...



Damned the drama. :chillin:
_Posted via Mobile Device

_


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Multispeciestamer said:


> Idk, I've see winter fish already, clipped pectoral fin on a few to boot. Check out this pic third fish from the left
> View attachment 3451
> 
> This pic was taken on the pier about a month ago.


OK, even without the RP clip, that fish (to my eyes) sticks out like a sore thumb from the others. You're gonna have all kinds of steelhead around the piers at any time--skams, Michigan fish, Wisconsin Arlee's, etc. That's a given. 

However, from a Kalamazoo perspective, it's one of the lowest planted streams on the west side, so it's illogical that it gets a push of Michigan strain fish at the exact same time as the Joe is getting a push of skams, ya know? When the lake flips, those skams go up whatever river is in front of them. The math (huge skam plants in southern Lake Michigan vs. lower Michigan steelhead plants) dictates that the bulk of those steelhead people see show up at Allegan Dam every September are skams. 

As for telling them apart, forget the eyes, the wider tails, the slender bodies and what not--those are a given. Look at the fins. Skams are raised in greater numbers and packed into raceways in greater numbers than Michigan fish. Thus, most of the skams we (all of us) catch have fins that are dented and distorted all to hell. It's not even the clips you have to look for--the condition and shape of the fins will tell you a million things if you know what you're looking for. 

For example, Look at the dorsal fins on these skams below: 




























You just simply do not see that kind of fin damage in most of the Michigan strain fish. That kind of damage is common in skams--same with their pecs and ventrals.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

thousandcasts said:


> OK, even without the RP clip, that fish (to my eyes) sticks out like a sore thumb from the others. You're gonna have all kinds of steelhead around the piers at any time--skams, Michigan fish, Wisconsin Arlee's, etc. That's a given.
> 
> However, from a Kalamazoo perspective, it's one of the lowest planted streams on the west side, so it's illogical that it gets a push of Michigan strain fish at the exact same time as the Joe is getting a push of skams, ya know? When the lake flips, those skams go up whatever river is in front of them. The math (huge skam plants in southern Lake Michigan vs. lower Michigan steelhead plants) dictates that the bulk of those steelhead people see show up at Allegan Dam every September are skams.
> 
> ...


 I would like to note that me nor the other locals have not seen a skam landed at berrien by anyone in a month. (excluding 1 like 2 weeks ago but that was 1!) so to say that we are getting a big push at the same time, How?


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## RDS-1025 (Dec 1, 2008)

Multispeciestamer said:


> Skamania is no more credible then Skamanian both are just common names.


Actually it is. Skamania is a word and skamanian is not.


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