# Your Ideal Grouse Dog for Michigan Covers



## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Merimac said:


> I would agree with both of these. I am not big on an overly pointy puppy. I would rather they want to get the bird. I don't like dogs that point everything they see or smell.


Totally agree: I much prefer a young dog with loads of early gamebird pointing instinct as Jay eludes to in the next post. I really need to consult my editor before I post here!:lol:
Fritz, that would be an awsome breeding. I was truly impressed with Jones's drive and athleticism (as I was a couple years ago).


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Only because the thread is about an ideallic situation but in the real world I would say no. Too many variables.





Jay Johnson said:


> I'll take a dog that shows me it's ability to find and point grouse at a young age over a dog that is slow to do so every time. And, the older I get and the fewer cyclical peaks I have left in life, the more I prefer an early starter. I was shooting pointed grouse over my current dog at 6-8 months and it did nothing but reinforce her lust for finding and pointing additional grouse.


I am with you on this one Jay. I hear all the time that Setters are slow developing. Balogna! Some Setters are slow to develop becuase so may people except this trait and breed slow developing dogs. 

I have a fall routine starting on the prairie, then the woods, occassionally pheasants, and finally wild bobwhite quail. The pups that start the season 6 months or older better be handling wild birds. I love the dogs that that plant their feet hard on birds from the time they are 4 months old. They are a heck of a lot easier for the average guy to train and I would still prefer them even if we were not producing dogs for the public I would still prefer this tendency. I also like dogs with a strong natural backing instinct. These dogs tend and I emphasize tend to be more honest around game.

About 20 years ago I had several dogs from a couple different lines that took a lot longer to develop. Many of them ended up to be good even great dogs but that trait really slows down the progress of a breeding program. When they don't come on you have three years invested in a failure. 

SRB


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

The two greatest pointing breed grouse dogs I have walked behind both developed the height of their game after they were 2 and 3 years old.
Probably why I have the patience to wait and see.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> The two greatest pointing breed grouse dogs I have walked behind both developed the height of their game after they were 2 and 3 years old.
> Probably why I have the patience to wait and see.


Scott you and me bring home roughly the same amount of grouse during the year so what do you expect out of that puppies first fall? My expectation for my pups is by mid oct. My pup can be put down by themselves and not be a hindrance
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> 5. GVSUKUSH - great attitude, happy to be there, "If I get one great if I don't fine" - brings *cheap whiskey *and diet cokes. If the hunting is slow he is always game for some good food and relaxing.


McMasters prefers to be called "Affordable".


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> Scott you and me bring home roughly the same amount of grouse during the year so what do you expect out of that puppies first fall? My expectation for my pups is by mid oct. My pup can be put down by themselves and not be a hindrance
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again I will use my Labs as an example, I don't think you can really count it a puppy season unless the dog is at least 6-7 months old on September 15th.

My expectation is that the dog is out and running around in cover, learning to use it's nose, displaying some of the basic training we have been working on in the yard, hopefully I am knocking down the few birds they smell and flush infront and they get to pick it up and hopefully bring it back, learning what we are looking for. 

I hope that when I find a road bird, or I cherry pick a food source that I see some excitement for the birds in that cover. 

I don't want to let them get bored, I would rather have a dog just out running and starting to learn to hunt, learn what we are after, if they run up birds out of range that is fine with me. 

By half way through the second season they should be starting to handle grouse for the gun, and they should be a lot more help then hurt.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Ditto!! Well said.
Except with the 2 dogs I have right now,  male, 30-40lbs, and 3 hours is long enough for me .
I truly enjoy working as a team with the dog. Not only having them hunt for me, but also me knowing when to let them hunt and me follow.



I'm with Brandy said:


> The dog I have now.
> 
> 
> I like pocket rockets.
> ...


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> Scott you and me bring home roughly the same amount of grouse during the year so what do you expect out of that puppies first fall? My expectation for my pups is by mid oct. My pup can be put down by themselves and not be a hindrance
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 If I get them back to the truck for a ride home I'm happy. 
I expect them to learn how to ride in the dog box, how to splash in mud puddles, how to jump logs, how to chase flushed birds, maybe get stopped on a tight sitting woodcock, keep somewhat track of me, be quiet at night, eat when food is presented,......
I'm a hunter not a dog trainer. I just drop the tailgate and let 'em rip letting bird exposure do the training for me which is probably why my dogs develop slowly and thus I have to be patient waiting for it all to come together.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay Johnson said:


> I'll take a dog that shows me it's ability to find and point grouse at a young age over a dog that is slow to do so every time. And, the older I get and the fewer cyclical peaks I have left in life, the more I prefer an early starter. I was shooting pointed grouse over my current dog at 6-8 months and it did nothing but reinforce her lust for finding and pointing additional grouse.


 
I'm with Jay on this one. I hunted with Tom P when my dog Kate was a pup and I didn't bring her. His comment was how do you expect them to learn if they're not in the woods. She was a may pup and went every time since. She developed quickly and pointed birds and backed well her first year and handled grouse very well her second year. Both of her daughters pointed grouse that we killed in their first years. As we all know we don't have our dogs long enough. If the average setter is for the most part done at 12, contibuting as a first year dog extends their return by 8 %, if the only hunt till 9 then the increase is 12%. In addition if they start early it reduces the oveall number of dogs that we need to keep to have an effective hunting string. mac


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## oilcan (Feb 10, 2007)

2ESRGR8 said:


> If I get them back to the truck for a ride home I'm happy.
> I expect them to learn how to ride in the dog box, how to splash in mud puddles, how to jump logs, how to chase flushed birds, maybe get stopped on a tight sitting woodcock, keep somewhat track of me, be quiet at night, eat when food is presented,......
> I'm a hunter not a dog trainer. I just drop the tailgate and let 'em rip letting bird exposure do the training for me which is probably why my dogs develop slowly and thus I have to be patient waiting for it all to come together.


 That is probably what most hunters do, besides maybe showing them a few quail or pigeons and a little yard work. And then you hope the dog develops themselves.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> If I get them back to the truck for a ride home I'm happy.
> I expect them to learn how to ride in the dog box, how to splash in mud puddles, how to jump logs, how to chase flushed birds, maybe get stopped on a tight sitting woodcock, keep somewhat track of me, be quiet at night, eat when food is presented,......
> I'm a hunter not a dog trainer. I just drop the tailgate and let 'em rip letting bird exposure do the training for me which is probably why my dogs develop slowly and thus I have to be patient waiting for it all to come together.


Scott,

I completely agree. My process and the process I suggest to others is to start the dog very young (14-16 weeks) on liberated birds just long enough to ignite their innate abilities. Consider this pre-school. In other words, a way to prepare them for the real thing. Then, no more liberated birds until it's time to break them.. That first fall is all about learning / development. I think quite a few people make the mistake of trying to train a puppy in a mechanical way. Dogs that figure it out for themselves make better bird dogs in the end and from a breeding perspective I want to select the ones that show the greatest natural ability around game.

No doubt some that take longer can still be fantastic bird dogs. However, I just can't find a reasonable way to conclude that the dogs that show more talent early won't on average be better when they peak. This is the common theory among trialers and race horses. You can bet the horse racing people undertand the odds given the investment they make. I suppose we can also use the anaology of professional athletes. How many second rounders end up being elite NBA players. Of course, there are lottery picks that wash-outl but for the most part the real stars shine early.

SRB


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

I wish I had the money to run my pup on liberated birds....

Darn being a broke college student!!!


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Scott Berg said:


> Scott,
> 
> I completely agree. My process and the process I suggest to others is to start the dog very young (14-16 weeks) on liberated birds just long enough to ignite their innate abilities. Consider this pre-school. In other words, a way to prepare them for the real thing. Then, no more liberated birds until it's time to break them.. That first fall is all about learning / development. I think quite a few people make the mistake of trying to train a puppy in a mechanical way. Dogs that figure it out for themselves make better bird dogs in the end and from a breeding perspective I want to select the ones that show the greatest natural ability around game.
> 
> ...


 Just because it points a lot at an early age does not mean it has talent. I would rather have a proper gate and brains. If I was to judge a puppy stake I would not judge on bird work.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

kellyM87 said:


> I wish I had the money to run my pup on liberated birds....
> 
> Darn being a broke college student!!!


Start trapping pigeons.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

You misunderstood. 

I was talking of liberated quail.

We have both "training" and homing pigeons

He has been on libbys once or twice but I wish he had more exposure. It is just too expensive if you can't train on the birds they miss up at highland. 

Oh well.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

kellyM87 said:


> You misunderstood.
> 
> I was talking of liberated quail.
> 
> ...


It can be done; this guy trains with both, but is extremely heavy on wild bird side and has done OK with it:
http://www.hifivekennels.com/video page.htm


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

I guess I just don't get it. Why wouldn't you want a dog to display its natural abilities finding, pointing ruffed grouse at an early age? Is there a downside to knowing the dog has the ability to find and handle its birds? Better yet when they show that they are naturally staunch on their grouse at a young age.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> It can be done; this guy trains with both, but is extremely heavy on wild bird side and has done OK with it:
> http://www.hifivekennels.com/video page.htm


Yes I know, My pup (7 1/2 months) is going to get evaluated the weekend of the 10th. The plan is to hopefully send him for winter training in arizona and kansas.

He seems to be doing great so far. He is still a stubborn stupid puppy, but he is a boy dog so thats to be expected.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

kellyM87 said:


> I wish I had the money to run my pup on liberated birds....
> 
> Darn being a broke college student!!!





kellyM87 said:


> You misunderstood.
> He has been on libbys once or twice but I wish he had more exposure. It is just too expensive if you can't train on the birds they miss up at highland.
> 
> Oh well.





kellyM87 said:


> The plan is to hopefully send him for *winter training in arizona and kansas*.


If you can't accord a $4 pen raised quail, how the heck are you going to swing the $cash$ for a winter training trip?


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

Christmas.... 

plus: i can afford the birds, or the time off to train and trial, but not both.

im working 50 hours a week plus full-time school to afford this hobby. if i paid the money for birds I would have about zero time to train. besides I know very little about training trial dogs, so expertise is worth the money...

Its a trade off, I can afford to get him pro trained, and continue to work rediculous hours to pay for it, or buy birds, pay a pro trainer, liberate them, and lose hours at work to find time to take him out while there is still day light.

What would you do?


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

kellyM87 said:


> What would you do?


I'd go up north every day I had off and put him on as many wild birds as a possibly could.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Merimac said:


> Just because it points a lot at an early age does not mean it has talent. I would rather have a proper gate and brains. If I was to judge a puppy stake I would not judge on bird work.


Ben,

I think this is one of those discussions that it is hard to get the exact gist of what someone is trying to say. In this case what I am trying to say. I agree with you that handling a few early grouse contacts does not assure us we are going to have a great grouse dog. I also agree that any dog under evaluation for breeding or trialing should have the right physical attributes, including gait, stamina, and heat tolerance. And, as you mentioned, a variety of sub-categories describing mental attributes are really important. I was not trivializing those other attributes. I was trying to say while all of those are prerequisites I much prefer a dog that shows talent early on.

After an entire fall working on a variety of wild birds in a variety of different types of terrain, I think any of us would have a pretty good handle on their natural ability. I do think that this type of test is a pretty good indication of natural talent. Skilled handler/trainers can make a great dog with less natural talent but a better dog for most people is the one that just goes out and does it early. (IMO) This is why I have adopted the method I mentioned. Would some end up being great that dont handle birds early? Absolutely! However, as a breeder, I believe there are a few reasons to cut those that dont. If I have 10 prospects that handle birds early and 10 that dont, my odds are a little better with the ones that do. Second, this method allows me to evaluate more dogs which allows for a higher degree of selectivity. Third, keeping dogs that develop faster accelerates to improvement of the overall program. Fourth, not all of our clients are clients are that patient. I had an owner call me earlier this fall who was really concerned that his 7 ½ month old pup did not get any grouse pointed the first weekend. Thank god he got a couple pointed the next weekend and progressed the rest of the season.

SRB


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Kellym87 if this is your first setter and your first dog to try run in cover dog with winter coming on you by far better off sending it with Bruce. That is if he say it has potential. Bruce is a real good guy and your dog will get worked every other day. Try due that in Mi. If the dog runs a April trial it will have at least a two head start. Good luck.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Scott Berg said:


> Ben,
> 
> I think this is one of those discussions that it is hard to get the exact gist of what someone is trying to say. In this case what I am trying to say. I agree with you that handling a few early grouse contacts does not assure us we are going to have a great grouse dog. I also agree that any dog under evaluation for breeding or trialing should have the right physical attributes, including gait, stamina, and heat tolerance. And, as you mentioned, a variety of sub-categories describing mental attributes are really important. I was not trivializing those other attributes. I was trying to say while all of those are prerequisites I much prefer a dog that shows talent early on.
> 
> ...


Hey there Scott, You are in a different place than I am for picking dogs. You have different reasons for what you want. I have picked out 6 pups in the last 5 years. Not that many. I usually take a pup or two of other peoples to the U.P. so that I don't run out of dog power. In my experience, take it or leave it, the young dogs with the most point were not my favorite dogs. Agreed it is a preference thing. Looking at a 6 month old pup that has all its abilities in line there is no question is a positive. I certainly don't want the one that you let out to pee and it points for 5 minutes because the wind is blowing chipmunk smell while I am waiting for it to pee. I don't want the pup that points more than it hunts. I don't want the one who has a crap load of unproductives and those are the ones I have seen that point too much as a puppy. 
Most people don't get the option to pick a pup at 6 months old to see a pup in a field. My last one I picked at 12 weeks the one before that was 6 weeks. 



I just got back into town so sorry for the delayed response.


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