# Why?



## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

Let me start by stating I am NOT here to start a fight on this board. I simply want some of you to respond to a question I ask some of my friends who can't give me a legitimate answer.

Why do you feel you must shoot a mature buck rather than a younger one?

Plain and simple question. I have just had a problem with the thinking that only mature bucks should be shot and I would like to hear the reasons why this philosophy exists with QDM supporters (particularly those of you who are diehard AR hunters).

Thanks.


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## Sib (Jan 8, 2003)

1) I like to challenge myself and shooting a 1.5 year old buck doesn't take much challenge.

2) There is no advantage to shooting a younger buck vs a doe, the antler attraction isn't there, I'd rather shoot the doe and let the buck develop antlers.

3) Shooting too much of one sex is just plain bad for the herd, traditionally bucks have taken the brunt of being killed and more balanced harvest is best biologically for the herd.

4) Because enough guys are going to go out and kill the 1st antlered deer that comes along and by using discretion and letting the little ones walk it will benefit the herd and actually let the immature bucks get to the next age class.


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## holzy (Sep 21, 2001)

Honestly for me, it's the challenge and the fact that I like big antlers  I'm 28 yrs old and I just killed my 23rd buck in 16 years of hunting. I now don't much care for that statistic because 17 of those were 1.5 old bucks, which, IMHO, are the dumbest animals in the woods. I could shoot one every day in the past two weeks that I've hunted. 5 years ago, we quit shooting these young idiots.

I love to eat venison and will shoot an older doe before a young buck any day. I get more meat and allow that buck to hopefully grow into something I can shoot a year or two down the road. I love shooting bigger bucks.


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## wecker20 (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm not a die hard AR hunter and I do not feel I "must" shoot a mature buck. I want to shoot a mature buck and that's why I support AR. I would also like to see real rutting activity when the balance between bucks and does is in check. Most hunters(me included) have never witnessed true rutting activities. I'd like to see a couple of big boys get together and really duke it out. That would be the icing on the cake. This year I may settle for a 1.5 year old buck. Why?, no doe permits this year, don't have enough does to shoot anyways, and I want meat.


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## TJO (Dec 30, 2004)

I guess for me its plain and simple 1.5 yr old deer doe's included are to easy to shoot preiod. What is the fun (challenge) in that! I work make money and don't need deer to feed the family like some, and most that need deer to feed the family don't hunt they shoot when they need it. I have a pile of 1.5 old horns in the basement don't need to add to that. I don't have to kill something anymore to have said I had a great hunt. Trust me I know guys that shoot anything and everything they see and don't much care if there are deer left for there kids in the future. That's just not my atitude but let me say this also and that is I shoot a 150 class or better every yr and I do beleive it directly relates to me letting the young ones walk. 
BlockBud you sir are your own man and you do what you think is right for you and if you choose to shoot a young buck that's your call and I would be just as happy for you and someday maybe you to will want the challenge of shooting a mature buck and with guys like us you to should have the chance.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

1. Yearlings are too easy to shoot, offer no challenge to me, and if that was all I had to hunt I might as well just be hiking.
2. By actively attempting to increase the local buck age structure you will begin to experience the joys of an older buck herd, for example: several times more rubs and scrapes, substantially increased rutting activity including fighting, seeking chasing, grunting, snort-wheezes, etc.
3. More meat.

Mature bucks are a mystery. They are reclusive, bold, strong, confident, and can be downright spooky at times. They all have personalities and tendancies that define the type of buck they are and if you figure that out you may be able to catch up to that particular buck. It is a pure joy to hunt a quality herd with a decent buck age structure and I hope all of you get to do that some day soon.


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

Thanks so far for the good answers. I guess I can see your points. I also see that most (or all) of you are from the lower peninsula. I know there are higher deer densities in the U.P. than where I hunt, but where I hunt, I am LUCKY to see ONE buck during the rifle season (I only hunt rifle). It has been this way for the 24 years I have hunted the same general area where I have a camp. I guess when you have bucks running around like chipmunks where you hunt, you can be selective. In my 24 years of hunting, I have seen a total of 11 bucks. I have killed 9 of those and missed 1, the only one with a decent rack of maybe 8 points. Keep in mind I only get about 3-5 days to hunt at camp and that is the total number of days I spend deer hunting. This is why I shoot the first buck I see. If I had more time and access to better deer density, I could see hunting antlers, I guess. If I passed on all younger bucks, I would be 0 for 24 and what fun would that be. I just didn't like when the mandatory AR survey nearly made it illegal to shoot the only bucks I see (and few at that!) here in the U.P. I will continue to hunt the area my camp is because it has been in the family for generations and I love the area. I respect those that want to hunt bigger antlered deer and am glad you have areas that produce them, but I don't have the deer population to start thinking that letting deer go will result in big racked deer in the future.
Beyond that, the bottom line is that I don't care about the rack size. Sure I will love it when I do luck out and shoot one some day, but in the meantime, I am happy with my occasional three or four point every few years. Where I hunt, even getting one of these "stupid idiots" is a challenge. It's a challenge just SEEING at least one of them to shoot!
North Jeff, you put a lot of effort into your hunting and do it often, don't you? I don't have that time, nor do I take deer hunting as seriously as you do. That's the thing; we all hunt for different reasons with different philosophies and we cannot be blanketed under the same deer hunting expectations. To you, the young bucks offer no challenge. As I explained above, they do to me.
Please keep responding here.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Are you doing anything to improve the habitat where you hunt? Is it a possiblity? or is this public land? 

If there is NO reason i.e., food, for the deer to remain around your area, the will not remain, they will move on to where the food/shelter is.

You can hunt there another 10k years and if you don't provide food there will be no deer.

When the understory of 'old growth' hardwoods is gone, so are the deer.

If you can take a 75 - 100yd shot in the hardwoods in your area - you don't have any food.

ferg....


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Blockbud,

I spend very little time scouting or hunting on the public land around here, yet I've always had at least 1 buck to shoot on opening day, and up to 3. This is in an area where guys will bait for 2 weeks sometimes and not see a single deer. Am I somehow different than most? Luckier than most? Spend more time than most? No, in fact some guys spend more time baiting and setting up a shack than I do scouting...but I just do what it takes to see a buck. What works for me, on PA public land (where my scouting is limited to a couple hours the Sun. before the Mon. opener each year) and MI public is not baiting (illegal in PA anyways), sitting all day, getting away from people, paying attention to my wind, and being stubbornly patient. 

There are a lot of guys that spend a lot of time around here baiting and building blinds and then say they need to shoot a young buck because they don't have the time to hunt for an older one. Not at all saying this about you, but to me, a lot of those guys have the "hunting" time, they just choose to spend it in different ways than what might make them more successful hunters.


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## BackStrap (Sep 7, 2001)

Are you saying that you shoot a 150" buck or better every year? How many years have you been able to do this. In Michigan? Free-range? No offense, but it's VERY hard to believe.



TJO said:


> I guess for me its plain and simple 1.5 yr old deer doe's included are to easy to shoot preiod. What is the fun (challenge) in that! I work make money and don't need deer to feed the family like some, and most that need deer to feed the family don't hunt they shoot when they need it. I have a pile of 1.5 old horns in the basement don't need to add to that. I don't have to kill something anymore to have said I had a great hunt. Trust me I know guys that shoot anything and everything they see and don't much care if there are deer left for there kids in the future. That's just not my atitude but let me say this also and that is I shoot a 150 class or better every yr and I do beleive it directly relates to me letting the young ones walk.
> BlockBud you sir are your own man and you do what you think is right for you and if you choose to shoot a young buck that's your call and I would be just as happy for you and someday maybe you to will want the challenge of shooting a mature buck and with guys like us you to should have the chance.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

TJO said:


> I guess for me its plain and simple 1.5 yr old deer doe's included are to easy to shoot preiod. What is the fun (challenge) in that! I work make money and don't need deer to feed the family like some, and most that need deer to feed the family don't hunt they shoot when they need it. I have a pile of 1.5 old horns in the basement don't need to add to that. I don't have to kill something anymore to have said I had a great hunt. Trust me I know guys that shoot anything and everything they see and don't much care if there are deer left for there kids in the future. That's just not my atitude but let me say this also and that is I shoot a 150 class or better every yr and I do beleive it directly relates to me letting the young ones walk.
> BlockBud you sir are your own man and you do what you think is right for you and if you choose to shoot a young buck that's your call and I would be just as happy for you and someday maybe you to will want the challenge of shooting a mature buck and with guys like us you to should have the chance.



I find this statement very condescending and arrogant. This is the type of response that will lose so many in the effort to convert new QDM members IMO. A 150 class buck every year has a lot to do with where you hunt too. I know an area where you will not shoot a 150 every year and that os a fact. I wonder why so many are turned off by the QDM movement when there are responses such as this one concerning the difficulty of shooting 1 1/2 and so on.

AW


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Let's not start any flame wars here - look at the original question - 

BlockBud is asking for personal opinions in this thread, he is not asking for anyone to state any facts, promote a management plan, one or any, over another.

Only for Why? 

"*Why do you feel you must shoot a mature buck rather than a younger one?"*

The key here is ...do you feel you... opinion only.

Lets let members state their personal opinions and let them stand on their own merrits for all to see.

Please keep your opinion ABOUT someone elses opinion to yourself, at least for the sake of this thread.


Thanks

ferg....
(welcome back Adam....see some of us missed you )


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## Backwoods-Savage (Aug 28, 2005)

Blockbud: I know what you are facing as I've hunted a lot in your area starting in 1961. The pickings were pretty thin then and I remember a few times seeing only one deer in a whole week of hunting. Believe me, the hunting is better now than it used to be. 

Also, if you've ever hunted in the LP, you did not find any place where the bucks were running around like chipmunks. In fact, I talked to a very good hunter last year and was surprised when he complained to me that he had seen less than a dozen deer in October and November combined. After that, I've found more and more who are telling me the same thing. So do not think you are guaranteed a big buck if you hunt in the LP. 

Make the most of what you have and where you are. Don't forget to have some fun too!


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

BlockBUD said:


> Why do you feel you must shoot a mature buck rather than a younger one?
> Thanks.


It's a simple answer.

I've put way too much time and energy into creating a better hunting experience for me and my neighbors to just shoot the first buck I see, which is usually a yearling. 

Now, the chances are good that I'll see something older than a 1.5 yo, so why not have that as an expectation and stick to it.


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

Ferg, you are right; I just want to know the reasoning the hunters on here have for shooting only mature bucks. It just seems like everyone else must have so many more deer in their areas than my camp does. It's not like no one in my area doesn't ever shoot decent bucks, but they are maybe one or two every few years. I have yet to see a buck shot over 150" around here. My uncle got an 8 point that would probably score 130" and that is the one deer of that caliber that has been taken around my area in probably 30 years. There have been maybe a dozen that were 6 to 10 points that would not score 100". That's it; the rest of the antlers on our camp wall are spikes to small 8 points. BUT, we are perfectly happy with this, so I guess that's all that counts. Again, the extremely low number of bucks we see just doesn't give us the confidence to start passing on the young ones we do see. On average, the hunters from the 5 or 6 camps in my area might see one or two bucks every 2-3 years. My longest stretch without seeing antlers is 5 years. I was raised in this hunting situation and I get defensive when someone wants me to change. Right now I am not going to, but I will say that I may in the future. 
By the way, this is state and corporate land. We only have 8 acres and don't hunt on it anyway. Just the camp is on it.
Please continue your responses.
Thanks.


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## mau (Sep 6, 2005)

i have shot 1 buck in my 27 years of hunting and that was a spike which was a mistake.i have shot over 20 does and passed on small bucks simply because my wife is convinced a doe taste better than a buck.if i ever see a buck i would hang on my wall i will take it,but as long as i can shoot a nice doe thats good enough for me.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Why do guys like pretty girls? Why do they like nicer cars? Why do they like nicer homes? Why do guys want better paying jobs? Why do people want to live in nicer, cleaner and safer neighborhoods? Why do parents want a better life for their kids? 
All these examples are similar and are at the core of it. We've lived with what we've had for years, looked around and saw that most had it better and now we desire the same for ourselves. I believe the term is "betterment".

betterment
One entry found for betterment.


Main Entry: bet·ter·ment 
Pronunciation: 'be-t&r-m&nt
Function: noun
1 : a making or becoming better
2 : an improvement that adds to the value of a property or facility


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

Let's put it this way: If a forkhorn or spikehorn was standing in my shooting lane next to a nice 100 class eight point (or even a so-so 5 or 6 point) I would shoot the buck with more points. I guess that proves to me that the antlers have something to do with it for me. My point is that I never see the 100 class eight point or even the so-so 5 or 6 point. With 2-5 days to hunt HUGE woods/swamp with minimal hunting pressure, how do I better my chances of seeing a buck with more than spikes or a small 3 or 4 point? Note: I hunt over bait with basically a 20 yard wide swath from my shack to the bait. I could get a shot off to the left from about 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock, too.

Even after speculating about this, I still come back to the old me that doesn't care if I shoot a mature "nice" buck or a spikehorn. I guess old habits are hard to break. It boils down to the beliefs and philosophies that are instilled in me from a dad who taught me everything, an ethically sound dad who taught me to be humble and thankful for whatever buck I take. Sorry guys, but unless something drastic happens to me mentally, I will continue to enjoy killing whatever buck I am presented with. Maybe if I do get a nice one someday it will be the turning point for me.


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## wecker20 (Mar 10, 2004)

BlockBud, I've done a little experiment w/ cameras this year. One camera is over bait and it's been there since Oct. 1st. My other camera is over 200 yds away on the same 80 that watches a runway and there is no bait. Most of my buck pics on the camera over bait are during nightime. I've got a dandy buck that visited the bait and he showed up at 2 in the morning. The camera on the runway has 75% pics of daytime movement and plenty of bucks. IMO, bait piles are used often but often that nice buck will hit it at night. Most of the 1.5 year old bucks and does are using it at night too. I have a around 2000lbs of apples that I picked up in the yard and that's why I have bait and a camera over it. I've been giving these apples away and w/ the 2 gallon limit, I'll never get rid of them.


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

NorthJeff said:


> Mature bucks are a mystery. They are reclusive, bold, strong, confident, and can be downright spooky at times. They all have personalities and tendancies that define the type of buck they are and if you figure that out you may be able to catch up to that particular buck. It is a pure joy to hunt a quality herd with a decent buck age structure and I hope all of you get to do that some day soon.


Holy crap Jeff...that just sent chills down my spine.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

BlockBUD said:


> Let's put it this way: If a forkhorn or spikehorn was standing in my shooting lane next to a nice 100 class eight point (or even a so-so 5 or 6 point) I would shoot the buck with more points. I guess that proves to me that the antlers have something to do with it for me. My point is that I never see the 100 class eight point or even the so-so 5 or 6 point.


Did you ever consider that the reason why you are not seeing any adult bucks is because most of them are being shot during their vulnerable yearling life stage?

I've been hunting the U.P. since the 70s. I bought a camp in the central U.P. in the mid-90s. The first five years of hunting in that area (both on public and private land) I saw very few adult bucks simply because everybody was blowing the bucks away when they were yearlings. Depending on the preceeding winters, I also saw few yearling bucks most years. In 2001 mandatory antler restrictions were implemented in my hunting area. In the last four years our hunting for bucks has skyrocketed. I now see adult bucks on a regular basis. In fact I see more adult bucks now than yearling bucks before antler restrictions came along. What I'm trying to say is that by passing up yearling bucks you will likely see more adult bucks privided that you hunt with techniques geared twards targeting adult bucks. Setting up a box style blind a couple weeks before the season opens and putting bait out in front of it is just not going to consistantly produce oportunities at adult bucks reguarless of how many are available in the area. If you overhunt the stand, hunt it when the wind is not correct or don't have entry/exit routes that don't spook deer then the odds are even lower of ever seeing adult bucks during daylight from such a stand.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

BlockBUD said:


> Let's put it this way: If a forkhorn or spikehorn was standing in my shooting lane next to a nice 100 class eight point (or even a so-so 5 or 6 point) I would shoot the buck with more points. I guess that proves to me that the antlers have something to do with it for me. *My point is that I never see the 100 class eight point or even the so-so 5 or 6 point.* .


You just answered your own question (sorta) 

You NEVER will see these deer - if you keep shooting them as spikes and forks - dead deer don't grow older - simple - that's why some people pass on the young'ins and let the grow - so that someday they will be able to see that 100+ 8 or even maybe even a 150+ 10/12 

ferg....


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

holzy said:


> Honestly for me, it's the challenge and the fact that I like big antlers  I'm 28 yrs old and I just killed my 23rd buck in 16 years of hunting. I now don't much care for that statistic because 17 of those were 1.5 old bucks, which, IMHO, are the dumbest animals in the woods. I could shoot one every day in the past two weeks that I've hunted. 5 years ago, we quit shooting these young idiots.
> 
> I love to eat venison and will shoot an older doe before a young buck any day. I get more meat and allow that buck to hopefully grow into something I can shoot a year or two down the road. I love shooting bigger bucks.


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

As far as shooting a doe, we can't in our county. I live in Schoolcraft county and my camp is in Alger; neither county allows does to be shot.


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2000)

If it's the challange you guys are after maybe you should quit hunting during the rutt. 
In my opinion bucks in general are not the smartest deer in the woods. True older ones are smarter than the younger ones, but not by much. And during the rutt not at all. Nine out of ten times it will be the doe the buck is following that will spot you or smell you. And sometimes even with that doe standing there snorting and stomping her feet at you the buck will still walk up and check you out simply out of curiosity.
Then again what do I know? I haven't killed a buck in the last 4 seasons.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Blockbud, you can take 2 does anywhere in the state in archery season. There were some area's that offered no "bonus" antlerless tags. But you could shoot 2 does up there with your combo tag in bow season.

From the MDNR web site...

Q. What type of deer may I take with a firearm deer license, archery deer license or combination deer license? 

Firearm License: Your firearm kill tag is valid statewide during the firearm season and the muzzleloader season to take an antlered deer, except for three special "no spike" DMUs and five special DMUs that have a "three-point minimum" regulation. An "antlered deer" is defined as a deer with at least one antler extending 3 or more inches above the skull. The three special DMUs with the "no spike" restriction are Deer Management Unit 135, Drummond Island (DMU 117) and South Fox Island (DMU 245). An antlered deer taken in these areas must have at least one antler with 2 or more points 1-inch in length. An antlered deer taken in DMUs 045, 122, 152, 155 or 252 must have at least 1 antler with 3 or more antler points, 1 or more inches in length. 

Archery License: Your bow and arrow kill tag is valid statewide to take any kind of deer (antlered or antlerless), except for the no-spike and "three-point minimum" DMUs listed above. An "antlerless deer" is defined as a deer that does not have antlers or has antlers that extend less than 3 inches above the skull.

Combination License: If you use your kill tag during the regular firearm season or the muzzleloader season, the kill tag is valid for an antlered deer only. If you use your kill tag during the archery seasons, the kill tag is valid for an antlered or antlerless deer. What you can take is the same as other hunters afield for the respective season, however, the kill tags designate what size buck can legally be tagged. The combination regular kill tag can be used on any legal size buck. The combination restricted kill tag, if used on a buck, can only be used on a deer having at least an antler with four or more antler points 1" or longer. If you have a combination deer license, you can legally take: 

2 antlerless deer (archery season only), or 
1 antlered (either season, your choice) and 1 antlerless (archery season only), or 
2 antlered deer (both in the firearm or muzzleloader seasons or archery seasons or one in 2 different seasons, your choice)
Reminders: Regardless of the kind of license you buy and season(s) you hunt, if you take two (2) antlered deer, one of the antlered deer must have at least one antler with four or more antler points 1" or longer. This deer can be taken first or second. The order is not important. 

The "no spike" regulation for Deer Management Unit 135, Drummond Island (DMU 117) and South Fox Island (DMU 245) and the "three-point minimum" regulations for DMUs 045, 122, 152, 155 and 252 apply to all hunters.


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

I know that; I don't own a bow nor have I ever bow hunted. I have only shot a bow once in my life.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

That's your choice, but I just had to correct where you said no does were allowed, so nobody got the wrong info. I bet you can find a very good used bow for very cheap post season. Try it, I've never met anyone who deer hunted who didn't enjoy archery season.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

BlockBud,

You have some of the best hunting in the U.P. in your backyard and I know guys that travel to within 15 miles of Manistique and kill monstor bucks nearly every year without bait. I will not narrow it down anymore for you, but concentrating on large remote marshy areas with dry islands mixed within, hunting the funnels, staying out all day, and not being afraid to use some knee or hip boots to get to your stand is a very good bet. Spend 1-2 days a year in scouting, use some ariel photos, concentrate on small ridges that connect with others that have a disproportantiate number of old rubs and scrapes on them...watch the wind and have at it. Big bucks are there for the taking in your area and it's one of the best public land areas in the U.P.

Get into some of these areas, see the amazing sign left by mature bucks, catch a glimpse of one, and you will in short time answer your own question of "why". Oh yeah, if you use bait..."ditch it" because you will never repeatedly get close to mature bucks without a lot of luck and perfect conditions.

Another type of answer to your question....do you ever remember sitting around camp talking about the giant spike that got away? That huge 3-point that grampa saw 22 years ago off the south ridge? 

Big bucks, it's part of the dream and it's part of the past. Unfortunately, hear in MI, and especially up here in the U.P. we've become complacent with mediocrity. We think it's normal to go 20 years and never or rarely see a 2.5 year old buck. By now it's just part of our history. That stinks. That's a shame. We are used to mediocrity and frankly there are way too many that think and older age structure is only for the big farms to the south, and fenced properties. We've forgotten the pictures of the past with 8 mature bucks roped to a buck pole, or when guys would only shoot a buck over 200#'s...because they were truly meat hunters. How ironic that we now shoot little 90# yearling bucks because we say we are "meat hunters". Times have changed and we've gotten used to it...it's too bad.


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

Northjeff~ I know an area identical to what you describe. It is within a 15 minute drive of my house and I don't know that anyone would go out into it. I have taken one walk out into it once during december when the marshy parts were frozen. I remember seeing older rubs on some of the islands and lots of old looking trails from island to island.

Let me ask your advice. How would you go about hunting this area without bait? Pick an island and sit on it watching trails coming into it? Help out a hunter who doesn't really know how to hunt whitetails without bait.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I'd pick 2-3 stand sites that I can use for different winds within the core area I'd like to hunt and sit in a tree that gives me good views. I like to manage my downwind side with large open water areas, deep rivers where deer don't like to cross, beaver ponds or even open mature timber where deer don't typically cross or visit for whatever reason. I also like to walk into the stand through or right along side these areas as well to keep deer disturbance down on the way to the stand.

In these areas there are usually smaller ridges or islands that connect very large land masses that may have more hunters in them, and deer. By hitting the little areas in between you can potentially put yourself into the middle of daytime holding areas. 

I like to get into my stand early before daylight and sit all day. During the middle of the day, say 10-2 I like to grunt lightly and rattle say once every hour IF my downwind is covered and not too thick to allow a buck to circle downwind and bust me. If your set-up is risky on the downwind, it's probably better not to call at all.

I like to sit where visibility is high, maybe even where you can cover several points. Say you have a large point of land sinking down into the marsh. I usually won't sit on the end of the point, but instead on a small ridge or island 2-3 islands away from that ridge, on a small ridge that may offer movement from another large land mass as well...maybe even a 3rd and I like to get into those areas from the side so that I don't disturb the nighttime activity of deer in the open hardwoods or large land masses that feature several hunters, bait piles, and deer. Basically, picture it as getting into a secluded spot with high visibility without alerting deer that may be a 1/4 to 1/2 mile away feeding happily in the dark as hunters approach their stands and push deer out into the marsh as morning is coming. You get their earlier than those hunters, sit tight, and even if you are not in the "perfect" spot, I get lots of daytime movement in those areas because deer feel secure and you were in their daytime area way before they were. Have your downwind blocked by a large natural feature such as deep river, open water area, beaver pond, and you can sit all day undetected while waiting for a buck to cruise by, often well outside the traditional 1/2 hour after sunrise, 1/2 hour before sunset movement patterns while sitting by bait. 

Also, by hunting this way your odds of viewing the entire buck age structure within the area, as opposed to keying largely on the youngsters with bait, are much better and you may find that when you get used to and experienced hunting that way you will actually see MORE mature bucks, than immature because the immature are up in the open woods keying on the food sources...bait.

I bet you and I and are thinking the same areas...you just have leave your comfort level and get in there and try it. That area is a very, very good area and if you key on staying away from people, finding sign, and sitting on funnels undetected with good viewing lanes it's just a matter of "seat-time".

It's basically as you say...pick and island and sit on it, but do it with the wind in your favor and watch as many of those connecting trails between land masses as possible. The best scenerio would be to sit on an island without much sign that offers you the best approach without spooking deer, watching connecting points of islands with old or new sign around you and in front of you when you reach the island. Picking your way to the stand in water can take time, but can be incredibly quiet if not frozen and you are patient...no scent, no sound, almost the perfect approach.

If you try it let me know how you do...whether it's hidden hemlock benches in PA within large open blocks of rolling matur timber, or open marsh funnels in the U.P., it's basically the way I hunt on public land and I look forward to it every year.


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

Thanks for taking the time to help me out NJ. I really appreciate your help. I don't know if it might be too late to get in there for this rifle season, but I will surely scout the area for the best vantage points for next year. Again, thanks.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Yup, NJ about nailed it on the head. Wind wind wind wind.....AND do not cut alot of shooting lanes and try not to disturb alot branches and stuff to get a "kmart" shooting lane. Those big bucks really know when something just isn't right, and this includes making a blind. One more tip, if you thinnk you walked in a long ways, walk another 1/4 to 1/2 mile longer.


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## bearguy (Oct 7, 2005)

I have shot my share of nice bucks and more than my share of what to most of you are not "quality deer. There are fewer deer in the UP than we had a few years back but, that was part of the problem. Deer densities over carrying capacity leads to the 90# yearlings. 

The only difference I see is the way most guys hunt now. Sit in a shack all day and don,t move. I still as many large bucks over the course of a year as I can remember from the "good ole days". 

Personally I shoot the first deer that walks out and have never regretted it. In fact the toughest deer to kill for me was a 3.5 year old doe. It took me 45 minutes to even get the bow up and another 20 to draw. No buck I have ever hunted was that hard to get a shot at.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

BlockBud,

That's a great point about what B&N brought up. I never cut shooting lanes. I also never cut lanes into where I hunt and do not use any markers other than an occasional broken branch and turning points. I also like starting out over beaver dams and rough spots that eliminate 50% or more of the hunters right off the bat....cross a 2nd wet-dam a few hundred yards in and you might never see another hunter. I've also heard of guys making a fake rub or scrape line close to the parking spot to keep guys from going in further....not that I'd ever stoop that low but I hear it works.

Some of your best stands can be open-grown cedars just off the or on points of those small islands. Many of them you can climb right up without any extra steps and most offer a very good spot to hang a stand and give you a concealed place to perch with a rifle. In fact, I know of one extremely accomplished hunter from a couple decades ago that would hunt out of cedars north of you aways before it was legal. He would cut the top off a large one, and just sit on a cushion right on the cut trunk. Throughout the years the branches would grow up around him and the results would give a "bird-cage" effect...you never know, you might see some of those "bird cages" out there and if you do they might be a safe bet for a tried and true spot. That guy had spots quite a ways in for the first few days, and then went deeper into the swamps when hunters would move around a bit more and push the mature bucks further into hidey holes....that was mostly before bait though when guys spent a lot more time beating the brush and putting some miles on.

Anyways...nothing like finding a hidden perch with the wind in your favor, big rubs around, and never seeing another hunter.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

NorthJeff said:


> I also never cut lanes into where I hunt and do not use any markers other than an occasional broken branch and turning points.


I rely on my GPS (I bring spare bateries) completely to find my public land stands these days. Modern GPS units will work even in thick woods and will bring me to within a few feet of a waypoint.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Cheater  

No, really though I love to get to know the area I'm hunting very, very well. Not that I don't think a GPS is incredible...just I'd rather know how to get around without it and then use the GPS for ease in the night or "back-up", but I don't. Either way though, although there are no trails in these locations, I'll find myself walking the same "path" even in the dark and just a few feet off can make a huge differance at times. I have one, just can't make myself rely on something so heavily that has a battery. I know up here I'll teach my kids how to get around the woods with a compass and good woodsmanship. When they are older if they want to use a GPS for conveniance more power to them....but if they can't find their way around the woods with just a compass first, I don't want them in the woods.

I'll use the GPS more someday, but for now I enjoy not bringing it and having to rely on it.


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

NorthJeff~

I took a ride to the area I was thinking of and didn't see much activity as far as hunters getting ready for Tuesday. I saw one truck and tiny tent set up just off the road pretty close to where I would head into the marshy area. I think I may get in there during the end of the rifle season and see what I can see. Next year I plan to have myself ready to bow hunt and I will certainly go into this area to hunt. I plan to hunt at my camp just west of Grand Marais for the first 4 days of rifle and then I will hunt an area near Manistique the rest of the season. I thought I would maybe hunt that that marshy area late in the season.
Question: Would I need to watch out over the actual open marshy areas surrounding the island I sit on? Or should I pretty much just pay most attention to the island itself?
Thanks for all your advice!!!


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

BlockBUD said:


> NorthJeff~
> 
> I think I may get in there during the end of the rifle season and see what I can see.


 
Some of my most productive/educational scouting trips have been AFTER the firearms season. I don't necessarily mean to pick out next year's spot, but rather to learn about deer. Find a large bed, especially if it's solitary. Note the type o terrain and vegetation/trees/brush surrounded the bed, which way the deer lay...deer will lay with their backside to the wind and scan the frontal area with his/her eyes while using his/her nose to pick up danger from the rear. Keep in mind what direction the winds were from during the previous few days.

In season scouting, by still-hunting (a nearly lost art) is also effective. If you do happen upon an active scrape line set up downwind of the central scraping area and wait, out of the prevailing "wind cone" and you might be surprised what walks in.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Some of those late season scouting trips will also give you a great idea where others are hunting as well.

I like to watch the openings between islands, not the islands themselves. By being out in the marshes and away from hunting pressure daylight movement of bucks can be very good. Most of my sightings occur between 9 and 4 in the afternoon. In fact, I rarely see anything late in the day and I think it's because most of the bucks are already closer to the does/larger wooded areas/bait piles and have already left their sanctuary areas out in the marshes. The ideal set-up is a spot where you can watch the most funnels at one time between several larger land masses...basically connecting the dots that funnel movement. What I find is that you can scout these areas and only a select few islands will have old sign on them...you just need to put the pieces together and get some seat time.

I took a friend into a spot like this recently. I've only hunted a particular set of islands for rifle twice and shot two bucks. I set another friend up in that same stand one year and he passed on a 2.5 year old 8-point. We walked slow going in as I detailed the entrance route to the area we were going and took our time. It took us an hour to go in, but then on the way out I told him we'd be back to the car in 20 minutes..he didn't believe me because it seemed so far away, but sure enough we were back in 20 minutes straight walking. Of course it would take me 45min going in to my spot during the morning, but I've never seen another hunter after walking a straight 20 minutes...just too far to carry bait.


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## Jx38 (Oct 17, 2004)

i shoot does for eating. what's the point of shooting a small buck? all that happens to the horns is they get thrown in a barrel w/ the others or are stored in a garage or something. 

if you are going to take an animal you need to respect them, shooting a baby no longer appeals to me. if you are going to shoot a buck why not shoot a mature one. 

every one want to harvest a big buck, so it's simple, don't shoot small bucks!! and see what happens.

plus the Mi. deer herd is so out of wack, what > 20 does to 1 buck?, that is hardly how mother nature intended it to be,


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## Jx38 (Oct 17, 2004)

BlockBUD said:


> Why do you feel you must shoot a mature buck rather than a younger one?
> 
> Plain and simple question. I have just had a problem with the thinking that only mature bucks should be shot and I would like to hear the reasons why this philosophy exists Thanks.


question for you. why do you feel it is important to even shoot a buck?? does taste great! 


i would like to hear your reasons.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Jx38 said:


> question for you. why do you feel it is important to even shoot a buck?? does taste great!


I'm not disagreeing with your philosophy here, but the original poster indicated that his camp was near Grand Marais.

He does not have the option to shoot a doe in that DMU. If he's going to harvest a deer during gun season it has to be a buck. If, like many, he has less than week to spend deer hunting he's most likely to harvest a small buck or nothing at all.

-na


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

You got it Nick. We have never been able to shoot does in Alger County. Keep in mind I am talking rifle season, which is all I hunt. And yes, my time in the woods up there is limited, this year to about 3.5 days at the most. I see so few bucks (one every few years) that I have no problem with shooting the one I see every few years. Why would you deny me that. I don't have a problem with it so why should you or anyone else.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

jx38,

The area blockbud hunts in NE Alger county averages below 5 deer per square mile. Also, ratios are good so not only is taking a doe unecessary and they have never had antlerless permits, but it's probably not appropriate, especially a mature doe. However, I know guys that also take mature bucks in that same area every single year and one 2 years ago passed on 7 bucks before taging a nice 10point. Rattling works, hunting rublines works, scrapelines, grunting, stillhunting through the hardwood ridges....they guys I know there get decent one every year without bait. In fact that area is probably as close to a defined "QDM" area in the state....population under the carrying capacity, good buck age structure, good sex ratios.

It's not the typical hunting area in MI and is part of the 11/19 DMU's in the U.P. that were under stated DNR goals going into last season....pretty unique up here and definately hard to understand or imagine!


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## gary145 (Nov 14, 2005)

I work with BlockBud and hunt whitetails as much as I can afford the time.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Welcome to MS Gary! It's great to increase our carrying capacity of Yoopers here in Michigan-Sportsman.com.

Keep on coming in and sharing your hunting and fishing experiences with us.


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## gary145 (Nov 14, 2005)

Sorry about that last post. I am at Mayo Clinic with my wife and I had to leave for a second, but I have a few moments to chat.

I have been watching people like Jeff Sturgis, Fred and Greg Abbas, John Eberhart, and the Wiegels for a few years now. I have just recently starting hunting, at least seriously, about three to four years ago. I believe to be successful, which is in the mind of the person, you should know as much about the subject as possible. One way to find this out is to contact people that are good at what they do. 

Alger county, although big bucks are taken every year, the area the BlockBud hunts doesn't carry but maybe one to two of them yearly, if that. We must remember that people like to hunt 'next' to camp or maybe a short distance away. The deer that are mature are generally in more remote areas than this.

I scout a lot, but actually hunt very little. Two reasons, one I like the woods in the spring, before green up. So, I will walk a lot at this time just to be in the woods with my wife or students from school. Two, I have a lot of possible stand setups, but like to hunt when things are in my favor, wind, temp, etc. Take this year for example, walked over 500 miles, drove over 1000 miles and had 71 blinds setup for this season. Blinds were from Iron Mountain, up to Munising, and over to Newberry, and back down to Manistique area. We look for a lot of sign and natural feeding/bedding areas for deer. We place cameras out and look for bucks that we would consider a shooter buck. 38 blinds looked good throughout summer and 8 of them we are currently hunting. Due to cancer with my wife, I have limited time hunting this year, but have seen some nice deer. I missed an 8 point on Oct. 7, in an oak flat, could score in the 110s. Also, have found a whopper 10 point that might break the 160s. Hoping that these make it through the first few days of rifle. Both are very close to two tracks and trails, but the thick undergrowth keep most hunters away.

I am trying to work with Big Brothers/Sisters to get students involved in the outdoors. Great program for the kids. I know that I have a lot of learning to do, but also like to share what I have learned. I have found out that baiting is less likely to produce a monster, than natural areas.

NorthJeff, I am up in your area a lot it seems like. I would like to talk with you about hunting. I am sure you have a lot to teach me, which I would be able to pass on to others. The more knowledgeable hunters we have in the woods, the more fun it is for everyone. NorthJeff, if you are interested, or are looking for another hunting partner in the UP, let me know. i am always looking for new friendships and hunting partners around.

Good luck to everyone on the 15th. I'll be thinking of all of you, be SAFE!!!


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

"""It's not the typical hunting area in MI and is part of the 11/19 DMU's in the U.P. that were under stated DNR goals going into last season....pretty unique up here and definately hard to understand or imagine!"""" 

I hunt three different areas in Roscommon/Crawford Co. that are just like this--unique???-maybe not, just some effort to find them and get to them. 

Used to know of a older gentleman that hunted east of Sable lake up there and he hunted all day every day, somtimes he woud get his opening day sometimes the 7th day but he averged like 1 deer sighting a season, yup he rarely saw a doe and the one deer he would see usually was his buck. Used to go up there steelheading east of Grand Maria and it was big news if you saw a deer...


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

Grand Marais, historically, has drawn its share of hunters from lower Michigan and the UP as well. Every year, about one or two "big" bucks are taken in the area. Most bucks from the area are anything from spikes to average sized eight points. There is some really big swampy country up there, but there are roads nearly everywhere, leaving little unclaimed area by hunters. Living 70 miles from my camp doesn't afford me really any time to scout out any new areas. I've hunted the same few stands for about 15 years. I'v taken a few bucks (10 or so) but really enjoy my hunting time at camp despite the below average deer numbers and kills.
Near Manistique, I plan on becoming more serious about finding areas not frequented by hunters and hopefully frequented by mature bucks. I have three boys and a girl to raise and if any of them wants to hunt, I need to have some quality areas to teach them to hunt.
Anyhoo, I appreciate all of you who have taken the time to be patient with me and give me advice, especially NorthJeff.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

BlockBUD said:


> I've hunted the same few stands for about 15 years. I'v taken a few bucks (10 or so) but really enjoy my hunting time at camp despite the below average deer numbers and kills.


Actually, if you killed 10 bucks in the last 15 years (or so) your sucess rate of about 66 percent on bucks is way above the state average. Even in higher deer numbers areas, like where I hunt in the central U.P. the sucess rate is only around 22 percent on bucks.


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## gary145 (Nov 14, 2005)

Trophy,

I am not surprised at the low percentage of bucks taken, but I would have to believe a few reasons for this. The low deer numbers may be one, but the fact that deer hunting has changed into more of a r&r time has limited the number of bucks. Deer adapt to all things around them, especially hunters. People who have hunted the same blind everyday for even 5 years are limiting the number of bucks they may see. People like convenience and I do not see that changing anytime soon. I have friends that come up to hunt with me and they will not walk to some of my blinds because the walk is to far, like a mile or so. Unreal to me, but it does happen. They are more content with setting up 50 yards off of a road and hoping. Personally, I feel that if you want to see more deer, find the areas that they like to be naturally, forget the bait, and hunt accordingly. But this way of thinking is changing quickly, at least with people in my age group. Not all hunters are this way, but some sure are.

I have been lucky in hunting and have been able to take a mature deer the last few years. I always seem to at least see a few of these deer, and even seem to get a shot at one each year. I know of a ten point last year in Iron Mountain that could be pushing the state record, and haven't heard of anyone shooting that buck yet!!!!! Opening day is today, and by the sign, my friends say he is still there. Hopefully some lucky hunter will be graced with even seeing this animal. I have only seen him once, and I was astounded by him. Always hoping!!!


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## BlockBUD (Dec 8, 2004)

I sat 8.5 hours today in two different stands and didn't see one deer. No one around us saw anything either. My uncle got a spikehorn around 8 am and that was the only deer in 5 camps around us seen!! He usually passes on spikes, but it's been 10 years since his last buck and he was actually excited. We weighed the buck and it is a 1.5 year old that weighs 115 lbs. dressed. We'll eat the straps for breakfast! All in all, it was a nice day sitting, even though the deer didn't move.


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