# Buck Doe ratio????



## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I apologize in advance because I am sure this has been asked a million times but here goes. How do you evaluate how out of balance the ratio is and how many does to take off of a oiece of property? I am obviously not striving for 1 to 1 or I would have like 4 deer on the property next year :lol: But seriously, how does one determine the number to harvest with it in mind that the following spring there will be one to two fawns for every mature doe etc. I usually take about 2 or 3 does a year myself from two pieces of property which really doesn't effect these property's so I am looking to gun camp to maybe make more of an impact. Thanks for the input and again sorry I know this has been covered before.

AW


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Accurate sex ratio numbers? Very difficult to achieve, for several reasons.

The easiest way to track sex ratios is through observation data--collecting the number, sex, and age of all deer seen while hunting. From this you can calculate the _observed_ adult sex ratio. However, observation data does have its downsides. Observation rates can be highly effected by harvest pressure. If hunters put a lot of harvest pressure on bucks, but very little on does, the observations will become skewed. Bucks will move less during daylight, hence be under-represented in the observation data, while does will move more during daylight and be over-represented in the observation data. The only time observation data is really accurate is if equal harvest pressure is placed on all of the deer.

The only way to get truly accurate numbers is through photo censusing. However, even that has its downsides. As we conduct more and more long-term photo-censuses, we are finding--on a given property--there can be considerable "roll-over" of deer during a single season. Deer that spent their summer on one property may shift to another property come fall. Then throw in the confusion of yearling bucks dispersing off, through and onto a property in fall, as well as older "drifter" bucks moving through from time to time, and it is very difficult to say what the exact sex ratio is because it keeps changing from week to week.

But that said, a good network of trail-cameras--left running from late summer to early winter--will provide some great trend data.

As for doe harvest recommendations, that's a tough one, requiring some serious calculations and "known" deer density, reproductive success (fawn recruitment rate) and herd composition numbers. Without knowing any of that data, the best advice is to start with a moderate harvest rate (perhaps 1 per 100 acres per year) and work your way up until a balance is found between observed sex ratios or photo census data and hunter satisfaction (shooting does *WILL* decrease their daylight activity, reducing deer sightings).


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Every year it's amazing how many bucks slip past our observations. Last year I passed on 8...some were seen with cameras, some not. A few more were also seen with cameras that were never seen by our eyes. The year before I captured 8 different 8 points on film...none were seen by hunters.

I think an aggressive camera census as well as hunter observation will yeild fairly good numbers and with those numbers I feel we have been no worse than 1 buck for every 2 adult does for the past few years.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

NorthJeff,

Interesting you noted how many bucks have been photographedand not seen, as well as how many seen but not photographed. That is something I am researching now--what percent of bucks are photogrpahed but not seen, and what percent are seen but not photographed. Looks like the numbers are strongly influenced by both hunting style and herd dynamics (buck age structure and sex ratio).

How many deer have been harvested from your property in the last few years, and how large is the property?


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

We ahve taken about 2 to 4 doe's per year off of a piece about 90 acres large. That being said we sure don't have to sit long before seeing doe's especially as the weather turns colder and they are moving more during the day. A very complicated deal this management and that is something I am trying to read up on a little here in the forum as well as other articles etc. Most of our doe harvest is the opening 2 or three days of the firearm season when there is usually a good selection to pick from unless members of the camp are focused on a buck and continue to pass at all deer they observe. But I can say that according to the shining we do in the summer there are a lot more bucks out there than we see from the treestands.

AW


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Adam,

Although the numbers will vary by hunting style and herd dynamics, without question hunters will see a smaller percentage of each older age-class of bucks. They may see the majority of yearlings bucks regularly using the property, but rarely do they see the majority of 3 1/2 or older bucks using the property. By the 4 1/2 year-old age-class, the bucks become ghosts. Usually, few of those are seen by hunters. There are exceptions to that rule (where sex ratios are balanced or favor bucks, and where buck age structure is very advanced), but in most cases, 4 1/2+ year-old bucks are very hard to see and harvest.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2004)

Adam and others:

In addition to the sound advice of BSK there are other means to at least come close to the right number of does to harvest. 

Deer are dynamic as you all know and adjust to changing conditions and move about to suit their own social and biological needs.

In any given area in six years at least 90% of the deer will vanish into oblivion. The deer you checked in the DNR field office or highway check station will verify that. Not too many six year old bucks are checked in and for obvious reasons but not too many six year old does either. An eight year old doe is considered rare. so we can safely assume we will push the bulk of the deer through the system within six years. Lets use that fact to help us pick a doe to buck harvest ratio. 

As mentioned deer are dynamic and adjust quite well to their environment. In good habitat and weather conditions such as the southern lower of Michigan deer are very productive to the point of having doe fawns getting pregnant at a 50% rate, while the adult does have a fawn recruitment rate of around 1 adult doe to 1.5 fawns alive on the firearm opening day. With this fawn productivity we need fewer does to replace the bucks taken and that is the key. "We do not need any more does than it takes to replace the bucks harvested". 

This leads us to detemine what should the buck to doe ratio then be in this area to maintain a constant supply of mature bucks, while still maintaining the proper herd density. 

In the more productive areas the buck to doe ratio can be quite close to maintain this constant supply of bucks for harvesting. This ratio in southern Michigan can easily be one buck per 1-1/2 does and the supply source is never ending, with the maximum number of bucks then being taken. 

So, how many does should we harvest to maintain this constant supply of bucks, keep the buck to doe ratio constant at 1: 1.5 and also keep the deer density under control. First we need to protect at least 90% of the yearling bucks. For southern Michigan the buck minimum antler rule should be a 15 inch minimum spread. This will insure that 90% of the yearling bucks are protected and about 20% of the 2-1/2 year olds. When we are protecting that many yearling bucks it is safe to belive after a few years that we can and will take 50% of the total buck population. 

So how many does will it take to replace that 50% buck harvest in a productive area such as along the Indiana border. Not really that many, figure that for every buck harvested that .9 to 1 doe should be taken to maintain that 1:1.5 buck to doe ratio. This comes out to a doe harvest ratio of 33-40% of all the adult does. 

This would be a good start in our southern area. You would need to monitor the results for tweeking the doe to buck harvest ratio as years past to stay on track. You would also need a large area for this program to be effective. That's where co-ops work well.

No matter how many does are in your area they will go thru the system in about six years and the chosen doe to buck harvest ratio will determine the buck to doe ratio. If it is obvious that there are way to many does, double the doe harvest for a couple years to hurry up the process.

As we move north the numbers change and in the UP they change drastically.

Keep the fun in hunting!


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

""We do not need any more does than it takes to replace the bucks harvested". 


I really can't understand why someone with your experience would make such an inaccurate statement. The does have to recruit enough fawns to replace the buck that were harvested , plus the buck that were lost to non-hunting mortality plus those buck that were harvested as anterless deer. Furthermore, in order to keep the herd stable they have to produce enough fawns to replace the doe that were harvested plus the doe that were lost to non-hunting mortality.


"When we are protecting that many yearling bucks it is safe to belive after a few years that we can and will take 50% of the total buck population. "


That really is a meaningless statement because it doesn't tell you how many 2.5+ buck will be harvested. In a state with 1 M hunters ,it is impossible to increase the number of 2.5+ buck to the point where they exceed the total number of 1.5 buck. In Miss. ,where they save 75% of their 1.5 buck, they found that the harvest of 2.5+ buck did not increase proportionately to the number of 1.5 buck saved. Losses to to non-hunting mortality and from buck being harvested as anterless deer prevent stockpiling large numbers of older age buck except in tightly controled environments. In PA during the second year of antler restrictions we harvested around 85% of our 2.5+ buck, so very few survived to become 3.5+ buck.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Great stuff Ed.

Also remember that you will have to shoot more does to make a difference in sex ratios if your neighbors aren't shooting does. Even if you put a huge dent in your doe population, high doe densities on surrounding properties can "fill in" the gap by shifting their ranges onto your hunting property. I've seen several instances where hunters on a piece of property practicing QDM had to shoot far more does than the deer density numbers would suggest to make an impact.

For several years running, we had to shoot 55-60% of our doe population just to stay "even" (no increase in deer density). Even though our fawn recruitment rate is lower than in southern MI (a good fawn recruitment rate in my area would be 90%), hence doe populations only increase by 45% per year (half the fawn crop), we had to shoot more than the 45% calculated increase to keep a stable doe population because does kept shifting into our property to fill the post-hunt "doe void."


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

I quick example of how differential hunting pressure can effect observation data. On our own property, we put maximum harvest pressure on our doe population, yet no pressure on the yearling buck population or the fawn population. Our observed adult sex ratio can run as high as 1.6 bucks per doe, and last year our observed fawn recruitment hit 160%. Yet our photo census data indicates our actual sex ratio is 1.5 does per buck and our fawn recruitment was only 95%.

The intense harvest pressure on does has driven them completely nocturnal, while yearling bucks and fawns walk around in daylight with impunity. In the late afternoon, it wouldn't be unusual to see several yearling bucks and half a dozen fawns feeding in food plots. But not a single doe. The does are around--our trail-cameras get many doe pictures at night--but they simply refuse to move during daylight, heavily skewing the observation data.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

With all this said:

1. "Deer are dynamic as you all know and adjust to changing conditions and move about to suit their own social and biological needs." Ed

2. "Although the numbers will vary by hunting style and herd dynamics, without question hunters will see a smaller percentage of each older age-class of bucks. They may see the majority of yearlings bucks regularly using the property, but rarely do they see the majority of 3 1/2 or older bucks using the property. By the 4 1/2 year-old age-class, the bucks become ghosts." BSK

3. "Every year it's amazing how many bucks slip past our observations. Last year I passed on 8...some were seen with cameras, some not. A few more were also seen with cameras that were never seen by our eyes. The year before I captured 8 different 8 points on film...none were seen by hunters." NorthJeff

This is what alot of good hunters have been saying, the bucks are there, the good hunters do see them and harvest some and this is just one of the reasons why some do not feel the need for QDM in their area. If this is the case why then do you think we need QDM all over Michigan?? Also doesn't this discredit the theory that as some on here would say "all the 1.5 year olds running around doing all the breeding" ??? Also, NorthJeff seeing that many bucks on your property and assuming you have a standard 3 does to 1 buck, do you think you might have a tremendous number of deer per sq. mile up there(considering its the EUP) maybe you might be artificailly holding too many deer for the habitat???


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

B&N,

Actually, the number of bucks I see in film and hunting is not a true reflection even of my local, on site population. I would estimate that depending upon the year, and time of year, the total number I get would be about 1/2. Also, in working with John Ozoga and Mark Thomas(QDMA national board member/Forester/Biologist/Consultant) we have worked out a core mature doe population target number of not over 10 does(counting yearlings and older). With last years observation we had approximately 8-9 yearlings and older does, and approximately 5-6 bucks, which has been a pretty consistant buck to doe ratio of 1:2 for the past 5 years of intense observation. 

We were close to my targeted core mature doe number last year, so I found it appropriate but most importantly John Ozoga did, coupled with the healthy for our area 1:1 fawn recruitment ratio, to harvest a yearling doe during the late season.

This year we will be closer to that 10 doe core number, and currently the fawn crop appears good, so it may be appropriate to harvest maybe 1-2 yearling does and a doe fawn or 2, but we'll just have to wait and see for further documented census evidence. Keep in mind though, we are still well under our SUMMER range carrying capacity so the health of the habitat is great. Also, it is more prudent in these northern environments to actually manage for a little higher buck:doe ratio than found elsewhere due to the sustainment of the herd and potential for severe winter kill. It is also more appropriate in these parts to manage for an older doe age structure for optimum reproduction. A few years ago a trapping of deer in the yard to the south of me found that 20% of the does were 10 years of age or older...we need to keep it that way.

Also, the only reason some may have a much older age-class in there area is that people are practicing at least the age-structure portion of QDM in there area, or they are themselves, even if they don't know it! So, in those area, if AR's were to take place, it would just mirror what is already being done anyways...no big change. Also, AR's have accumulated over 60% approval rate in all votes, statewide. I challenge anyone to come with a higher number of approval for any other strategy, including the way it is now. In the past here in the U.P. we had 70% and 72% for landowner and hunter approval...we'll see what it is for the entire U.P. in December. If the truth gets out, it will be good, if mistruths and lies lead the fight, it will go down, we'll just wait and see.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

*This is what alot of good hunters have been saying, the bucks are there, the good hunters do see them and harvest some and this is just one of the reasons why some do not feel the need for QDM in their area.*

beer and nuts,

Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't. I have seen both situations: properties with a very good buck age structure, yet the hunters just can't seem to see or harvest those bucks; and properties where the hunters never see any older bucks but believe old "Mossy Horns" is out there but just too nocturnal to be seen, yet photo censuses show 80-90% of the buck population is yearlings with the oldest buck being a rare 2 1/2.

*IF* you have a decent buck age structure, the only way to maintain it is to take few yearling bucks (no more as a percent of the buck harvest than the percent of the male population that is yearlings). If you have a poor age structure, the only way to improve it is to take no yearling bucks.

State mandated regulations are fine and dandy, but site-specific management is the only form of management that is highly effective. In essence, tailor your management to your local needs.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2004)

B&N:

You have heard from two very knowledgeable QDM'ers and not a single word from them that there should be state wide AR's and for reasons as stated by BSK. I and the entire QDMA Board of Directors find no problem with statewide AR's providing they are tuned to the conditions where implemented and used as a deer management learning tool. That's right we are not in favor of mandatory never ending AR's. 

We much prefer that they be in place no longer than it takes to educate the hunters about manageing their deer and then remove them and hopefully other unnecessary restrictions now in place for decades. 

They are your deer B&N and we encourage you and the entire hunting community to learn what is the right thing to do to maintain their health and productivity for all time.

Keep the fun in hunting!


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

"Actually, the number of bucks I see in film and hunting is not a true reflection even of my local, on site population." - if that statement doesn't confuse most?? I understand the bachelor groups disperse when the time of season tells them too, but how can you catch 8 bucks on film(I'm assuming this was in the fall) and not see them hunting but turn around and tell me thats not a true reflection of your local herd?!!? 

"A few years ago a trapping of deer in the yard to the south of me found that 20% of the does were 10 years of age or older...we need to keep it that way." Do you think one could have a comparison in saying that if 20% of does are 10 years and older that there has to be a large percent of 3.5-5.5 year old bucks as well. I mean thats just using statistics and common sense to draw a conclusion, yes!?!? You just got done saying you had 8-8points that you caught on camera that no hunters saw during hunting season, I gotta believe at least half survived that year. 

How much land around you is practicing QDM(including your land)??? And how land is state land?


Also, you must be a deer fanatic, cause you spend way to much time and money trying to manage only 13-15 deer. I understand the management habitat program also benefits all wildlife but the main objective is for the deer and everything else is just secondary benefactors.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

You are so right Ed S., but then WHY do you turn right around and want AR's, NorthJeff is providing a great hunting opportunity by habitat management and doe to buck ratio, and limitations on buck harvests(meaning numbers NOT size) and I would bet that if he shot 2-1.5 year old bucks a year on his land nothing would change. 

Ed Sp. the QDMA board of directors need to push for habitat management at a higher level than what the state is doing now, they need to push for better doe to buck ratio's(better census and more micromanaging) and I'm all for limiting the number of buck tags. But leave the AR's off the table, he just got done saying!!!("You have heard from two very knowledgeable QDM'ers and not a single word from them that there should be state wide AR's and for reasons as stated by BSK."). So now I can assume no more AR's proposals in the state of Michigan?!?!?

"That's right we are not in favor of mandatory never ending AR's. """ Yea right, the old foot in the door method!!! Give me a break.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

beer and nuts,

I'm opposed to antler *point* restrictions (or just about any antler restriction) over large geographic areas because no one has really shown they work well. There is simple too much variation between areas. Now on the other hand, antler restrictions can be very productive on _individual properties_, as long as considerable research has been done on antler development per age-class _on that property_. Again, site specific management.

But you're also right that there are other ways to accomplish similar results. I spent some time chatting with Jon Gossett, the head of wildlife for Kentucky. Kentucky recently (5 years ago) went to very liberal doe harvest limits and a 1 buck limit--no restrictions on antler size or buck age. They also have several WMA's with antler restrictions. After looking at 5 years of data from statewide harvests versus their WMAs, he's completely convinced low buck limits are the way to go. He said he would much rather have a 1 buck limit (no size restrictions) that a multiple buck limit with antler restrictions.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

b&n,

I am picturing you as a "glass is half empty type of guy" :lol: Nobody can write anything on here without you spinning it around and saying something negative. 

Talk about NJ having too much time on his hands managing deer. . . I can think of worse ways to spend time. One would be totally bashing on QDM on an internet forum every chance one gets when you have never tried it yourself, probably because one thinks it takes too much time and money.  It involves some time, but more sweat and tears, than dollars.

To each his own I guess, but enough  on your part already.

FYI, I am in favor of ARs only because I KNOW they work. . . along with habitat improvement they work even better.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Omega, thanks for your personal opinion. But spinning is not what I'm doing, just asking legit questions. 

Plus I was not degrading JorthJeff, just merely making a personal statement toward him has a deer fanatic. 

I have tried PARTS of QDM, like harvesting does, but your right, I don't have time and/or money to fully TRY QDM, nor will I ever have that much time. I'm kinda like 97% of Michigan hunters!!!

Omega, let me ask. Lets see you practice AR's harvest and take a few does every season and claim you practice QDM, right??? Do you provide the needed habitat management, know your doe to buck ratio(not guessing here but real numbers), try to limit your buck take if needed. How much property do you own? I know your type as well and I will be done responding to you from here on out. 

Maybe QDMA should look at Kentucky's data?! Thanks BSK.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

B&N,

Actually, if you'll look at my numbers you'll see I manage over 20 deer including fawns. Also, it was 6 8-points, not 8, I made a mistake in my original post and when I read it today it was to late to edit...woops! The point is that if I get 13 different bucks with film or observation, I'm not ignorant enough to think they are all local bucks. At the same time, yearling bucks I get pictures of in the first part of the summer, disperse by fall and move to other locations naturally, and new yearlings take their place that come from the surrounding areas. Yearling buck dispersal happens every year, on any property and is supported by local John Ozoga's research. Also, some of the older bucks I get photos of are traveling from out of the area and work throught the property in November, but don't necessarily stay. I've actually shot an 8 point on the property border that escaped a few hundred game photos, but was I believe the same 5-point I passed from the year before...same stand, same rub lines, same large body, black face, etc. I passed up a nice 8 a 1/4 mile from the property I had no photos of either that was chasing does in the middle of the day during the opener of gun season. In his case I think he was from out of the area, and with the first buck I believe he was local.

Bottom line, I believe somewhere around 1/2 the bucks I see is a good representation of my total yearly buck census. As far as it being confusing to most...so what, I'm trying to explain it to you and you've been on these boards long enough to comprehend.

As far as how my time is spent. I don't bowl, don't play ball, gave up competitive archery including my Mathews Factory Pro Staff status, don't go to the bar at night, don't "hang out" with my friends on a Friday night doing nothing, but instead spend my time working, going to church on Sundays, spending time with my family and young children, working on the property, and running beagles, not to mention trying to spend time on this site to learn and talk with the average guy who may not otherwise get good sound advice from traditional media outlets or maybe misinformed by traditional stubborness stuck in a past world out of touch with today's research and accepted practices of deer management. To each his own. It's nice to see someone who will take the time to be concerned with my well-roundedness though..appreciate it!  Just another example again of how the hunting community as a whole are a great bunch of people.


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## upstraightshot (Jan 18, 2004)

Hello ED I have a question about your post #7. The sportsman club I belong to is going to manage with QDM but the trouble is some of our members do not want 4pt 15" ARs. Our hunting area is in the central UP near Gulliver and Gould city, because of our location would it be ok to try a lesser AR. The majority of the 1.5 yr bucks around here are 4-6 pts ( my opinion, no data to back up ) Thanks


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

beer and nuts wrote:
*I have tried PARTS of QDM, like harvesting does, but your right, I don't have time and/or money to fully TRY QDM...*

Why do you need money to practice QDM? QDM is a *harvest* strategy, not a form of habitat management.


*...nor will I ever have that much time.*

Time? What time? QDM is about what deer you decide to shoot and what deer you decide to pass. That's it.


*Lets see you practice AR's harvest and take a few does every season and claim you practice QDM, right??? Do you provide the needed habitat management...*

What _needed_ habitat management? Again, QDM is a *harvest* strategy. QDM is not food plots. QDM is not cutting timber. QDM is not supplemental feeding. Those are all management tools. QDM is and ONLY is a harvest strategy.

Not trying to jump on you beer and nuts, just trying to point out that so many hunters have the wrong idea about QDM. It is simply a different form of _harvest_ guidelines. That's all. For 5 years, I practiced QDM harvest guidelines on my property without touching the habitat. We were quite successful within the framework of what the property would naturally produce (the harvest guidelines produced the desired herd dynamics--deer density in tune with habitat production, balanced sex ratio, and improved buck age structure). That was a completely successful QDM program and it didn't cost us a penny, or any extra time.

Habitat management is just a tool that can be used to improve *any* harvest strategy.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Along with what BSK is saying.....

You can not have QDM without attempting to have a population that is balance with the habitat, but you can have QDM without food plots  

You can actually have QDM without habitat improvement either.

Again, QDM is about balance

1. Balance of buck age structure...usually attained by harvest restraint of young bucks

2. Populations maintained in balance with their habitat...usually achieved by appropriated doe harvest and harvest restraint of young bucks

3. Healthy sex ratios

There you go, that's QDM. Often, the biggest expense is for doe tags or bullets, and your biggest management tool is your trigger finger. Pretty cheap fun.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

*1. Balance of buck age structure...usually attained by harvest restraint of young bucks

2. Populations maintained in balance with their habitat...usually achieved by appropriated doe harvest and harvest restraint of young bucks

3. Healthy sex ratios*

Yup, that's it. That's QDM. *ALL* of those factors are managed through selective use of the trigger finger. That's it. No extra cost, no extra time required.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

All agreed upon except 1. I feel the "balance of buck structure" can be attained by limiting the number of bucks(much like KY has done). Isn't this more balanced than AR's where you target only a certain group of bucks(thats not balanced harvesting). 2. In your #2 NJ, ".harvest restraint of young bucks." has nothing to do with "Populations maintained in balance with their habitat.." 

I must be missing something, cause habitat improvements has always been associated with QDM on this board. If QDM can be accomplished without food plots than why such the push with Ed Sp., QDMA with sponsorship with seed companies, implements, fertilizer co., $$$$$$$$. So food plots go against #2"populations maintained in balance with their habitat", or should this be 'artificial' habitat????

BSK, I don't have the time to place cameras(money, cost and film) all over my hunting location, I don't have the time to check them every week, I don't have the time to scout in the summer/early fall to count deer, I don't have the time and money to hire somebody to come and set up a management program. Shouldn't I have somewhat of an idea what is out there on my land before I harvest 1 doe or 5 does? Before you can manage something don't you have to know what your managing?? Also from what I have read QDM IS habitat management, IS sex ratios, IS antler restritctions, IS population balance with the habitat ALL rolled together. 'Harvest Strategies' is a tool to accomplish QDM, harvest strategies are AR's and doe harvests. This really is a first hearing QDM is ONLY a harvest strategy. BSK, maybe your right too many hunters do have the wrong idea about QDM, but maybe its because QDM supporters spread the wrong idea about what QDM is really about.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

UPstraightshot,

A 15" or 4 pt. on a side rule is NOT at all appropriate for your area in Gulliver. A 3-point on a side rule would protect 82% of the yearling bucks(U.P. average) and 50% of the bucks in the U.P. are spikes as yearlings. On the other hand, a spike rule is not enough for your area. It needs to be done right, or not at all to be effective. There will be a vote in December for a 3-point rule for the entire U.P., including your area and it will be interesting to see what happens. 

But again, a 15" spread or 4-point on a side rule is NOT AT ALL appropriate for your area.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.

A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding, and finally, to respect; bestows an ethical obligation upon the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional management, which allows the harvest of any legal buck and few, if any, does.

QDM guidelines are formulated according to property-specific objectives, goals, and limitations. Participating hunters enjoy both the tangible and intangible benefits of this approach. Pleasure can be derived from each hunting experience, regardless if a shot is fired. What is important is the chance to harvest a quality buck - an opportunity lacking in many areas under traditional management. When a quality buck is taken on a QDM area, the pride can be shared by all property hunters because it was they who produced it by allowing it to reach the older age classes which are necessary for large bodies and antlers.

Also....
"This really is a first hearing QDM is ONLY a harvest strategy. BSK, maybe your right too many hunters do have the wrong idea about QDM, but maybe its because QDM supporters spread the wrong idea about what QDM is really about"

B&N,

Here are some links to discussions on this forum of what QDM is. Look at my posts and see how many times I have said QDM is and only is: I bet you I've said that 50 times at least on this site and you never once read what I said?!?  By the way, look at my signature of what equals QDM...do you see anything about food plots there?

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62366&highlight=QDM]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36653&highlight=QDM

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68216&highlight=sex

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56929&page=1&pp=15&highlight=sex

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21870&page=3&pp=15&highlight=sex


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Do you think that some QDM advocates like the idea of AR because it aides them in the entire process? Meaning take me for example, I am trying to learn the process and understand the process a little better but I have no idea how Northjeff figures he has x number of deer and needs to kill one or more yearling etc. So in my case, AR would be a simple way to help those ignorant to the whole process preserve the young bucks without necessarily actively taking part in "QDM" through habitat and other means that they may not have the luxury of doing. Is this some of the reasoning or am I way out there now :lol: 

AW


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Adam, 

It really is very easy. 
*If you see lots of does...shoot them. If not, don't
*Pass on all yearling bucks, forget the number of points, spread, whatever, if it's big, shoot it, if it's young, pass on it.
*If you see lots of does in the early season, you shoot a few, and it seems there are much less going into late December, don't shoot any more.
*Get involved-our at least go to a couple of meetings, in a local QDMA branch.
*If you have private property, improve your habitat if possible to whatever extent you feel like
*Get some youth involved in hunting
*Try and increase you skills as a hunter
*Transform yourself from a consumer to a manager so that whatever you do, no matter how much or how little, you do it with respect, responsibility and consequences in mind.

You can be as active or involved as you wish just as long as you try and do what's best with your resources and most of all...HAVE FUN!


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

beer and nuts wrote:
*All agreed upon except 1. I feel the "balance of buck structure" can be attained by limiting the number of bucks(much like KY has done).*

You're right beer and nuts. Improved buck age structures can be acheived through many different harvest techniques--each with their up-sides and down-sides. But what it all comes down to is _what works for you and the hunters in your area_. Whether that be a "no yearling" rule, a very limited total buck bag limit rule, or using well-designed antler restrictions. Each of those techniques have their positives and negatives, but they will all work to varying degrees. A "no yearling" rule will produce the fastest results, but if that is unacceptable to the hunters, then choose another technique (of course realizing another technique won't produce as immediate or as effective a result).


*I must be missing something, cause habitat improvements has always been associated with QDM on this board.*

And that's why I log onto this board (as well as several others). To get the real word out about QDM. I really don't care if someone hates the idea of QDM, as long as _they know what QDM really is_.


*If QDM can be accomplished without food plots than why such the push with Ed Sp., QDMA with sponsorship with seed companies, implements, fertilizer co., $$$$$$$$.*

Because habitat management is such an incredibly powerful deer management tool. However, that power is just as great whether the same habitat management techniques are used in conjunction with Traditional management, Quality management or Trophy management. What I'm getting at is habitat management *IS* powerful, but it is not _specific_ to QDM. All of the same techniques can be used--just as effectively--no matter what type of harvest guidelines you are using.


*BSK, I don't have the time to place cameras(money, cost and film) all over my hunting location, I don't have the time to check them every week, I don't have the time to scout in the summer/early fall to count deer, I don't have the time and money to hire somebody to come and set up a management program.*

You don't have to have these things. I've seen many, many successful programs that use no equipment/technology other than the hunters' eyeballs (observation data), a cheap scale (harvest data--body condition indices), and their trigger fingers. The "knowledge" required to evaluate your program is becoming more and more available to the general hunting public. There are several good books out on the subject.


*Shouldn't I have somewhat of an idea what is out there on my land before I harvest 1 doe or 5 does? Before you can manage something don't you have to know what your managing??*

Boy, it sure would help to have these numbers, and a very, very intensive program will do what is necessary to collect these numbers. Yet again, it can be accomplished without the detailed population data. Observation data has its downsides, but as long you understand what influences can skew observation data, and which direction it will skew the data, it is still usable information.


*Also from what I have read QDM IS habitat management, IS sex ratios, IS antler restritctions, IS population balance with the habitat ALL rolled together.*

Then you have been misinformed. I teach and practice QDM for a living. I'm lucky enough to work for one of the most respected private wildlife management firms in America. We are both "consultants" and practicing scientists. We use ultra-high-tech data collection techniques, because we need solid "hard" numbers for our research projects (for scientific publication). But that doesn't mean hunters have to collect all that data to run a successful program.


*BSK, maybe your right too many hunters do have the wrong idea about QDM, but maybe its because QDM supporters spread the wrong idea about what QDM is really about.*

And that's one of the "sad but true" facts of QDM. A lot is due to incorrect "word of mouth" information. But misinformation isn't limited to hunters. If you get your information on QDM from some of the mass media available today, you are probably getting the wrong information. Go to the source--the QDMA. The QDMA was started and is run by the *real research biologists* who discovered and continue to discovered much of what is known about deer behavior and biology. The QDMA was created and designed by research biologists and in-the-field wildlife managers to be an educational organization that would get real scientific information about deer and deer management out to those who needed to know it the most; the real managers of the deer herds--the average deer hunter.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

That sounds a litlle more simple than what you said you were doing at your place. Now you said you had it to the point of shooting particular doe's is there a good doe to shoot over another or is it good to take any doe if there are too many? The difficult thing for me is I have passed on spikes and so forth only to hear them killed minutes later on state land so a reasonable AR would help in my case but I would also like to plant a plot we have about 3 acres of open ground just need the equipment to till it up. I take doe's every year and I still see a ton of them because we have no doe permits on the state land surrounding 2 sides of our prop so do I just keep taking them?

AW


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Great posts BSK. I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you at the convention. I was just having too much fun BS'ing with all of my QDM buddies at the annual "reunion" weekend.

Anyhow, for you guys that want a further education, and missed the last link, get this book:


http://www.deermanagement.net/deer-management-books.html


It is superb.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

The QDM philosophy has been preached on this site for at least a couple of years.

If someone has been on this site for that long, and haven't heard what it is, they haven't been listening. Plain and simple.

Read my signature....it's been there since 3/28/2002.

Adam,

What I do on my property is NOT the QDM norm. Please do not take what I do as the needed gospel. I was recently awarded the "Al Brothers Deer Manager of the Year Award" and I am not saying that to "toot my own horn" as it has been brought on this site several times already by others, but to illustrate again that what I do to practice QDM and manage my local deer herd, and what the average QDMer does, may be two very differerent but both acceptable levels of involvement. Bottom line though-HAVE FUN! That being said though, there are indeed a few other idiots out there that spend as much time as I do at it that just didn't happen to be nationally noticed....be careful, once you start experiencing positive results it's contagious!  

Just keep your mind open.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Well said BSK, I disagree with AR's becoming mandatory, and thats way I will fight to never see them part of Michigan hunting. There are better ways to accomplish what some hunters want and not divide the hunting community. 

NorthJeff, I have read your posts but when you throw all the other posts in together and how QDM has become syn. with food plots, its very easy to see how I and I'm sure others put two and two together.

""*Pass on all yearling bucks, forget the number of points, spread, whatever, if it's big, shoot it, if it's young, pass on it.""" I agree with everything you said NJ but I'll replace this statement with ***Limit your buck take every year***


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

beer and nuts said:


> Omega, let me ask. Lets see you practice AR's harvest and take a few does every season and claim you practice QDM, right??? Do you provide the needed habitat management, know your doe to buck ratio(not guessing here but real numbers), try to limit your buck take if needed. How much property do you own? I know your type as well and I will be done responding to you from here on out.


Beernut, 

I know you won't respond to my post, but I figured I would be nice enough to respond, since you asked what I do. I me, QDM is not rocket science by any means. I hunt two different pieces of property in the "DMU formerly known as 118." On one, we have 320 acres and it can support a lot of deer with fields around the area, the past few years we have taken 3(2003), 4(2002), 3(2001), and 5(2000) bucks. (all mature 8s of higher) Does in those years 12(2003), 11(2002), 12(2001), and 22(2000). I don't even want to guess at how many deer are on that property, but I saw 12 different bucks opening day and oer 80 does(some had to be the same, it gets tough telling the difference of does) of rifle this year and it was my worst of those years.
This is a friends place that I rifle hunt on.

One our property about 5 miles south of this, it is a different story. . mostly swampland and we don't take near as many does, but about the same amount of nice bucks every year. This is 200 acres of land, but it holds deer well. gotta go, I think my dog is destroying something!!


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## upstraightshot (Jan 18, 2004)

thanks for the help NJ


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

*Do you think that some QDM advocates like the idea of AR because it aides them in the entire process?*

Adam,

States consider ARs as a means of _forcing_ hunters not to shoot young bucks. One major downside to QDM is, if some hunters on a property are doing it, but some aren't, the results will be very poor. It is a huge help when everybody is passing up young bucks, hence regulations intended to reduce the harvest of young bucks region or statewide.

This _forcing_ of low young buck harvests isn't just to satisfy the "QDMers." It is really a bad idea to allow a deer population to exist without any older bucks. They are really essential to herd function. States are attempting to increase buck age structures because it is good for the over-all productivity and health of the herd.


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

"This forcing of low young buck harvests isn't just to satisfy the "QDMers." It is really a bad idea to allow a deer population to exist without any older bucks. They are really essential to herd function. States are attempting to increase buck age structures because it is good for the over-all productivity and health of the herd."

While it is a widely accepted theory that harvesting a high percentage of 1.5 buck has an adverse effect on productivity or the health of the herd, there is not one scientific study that documents this effect. In PA we have been harvesting 80% of our 1.5 buck for over 20 years and 91% of our adult doe are still being bred. None other than Dr. Alt said their is nothing wrong with our gene pool and Dr. Rosenberry said we have enough buck to breed the doe in a reasonale time period. The problem in PA has always been that the herd is too productive and hunters have a hard time keeping up with recruitment even when the PGC issuses the same number of doe tags as we have over wintering deer. Alt's goal was to reduce the herd by 5% /year ,but the herd has increased by 1.6% /yr. since Alt was appointed.

This is simply a case where man has tried to imposed his standards and priorities on a wild animal that that has been highly successful, despite all attempts to limit it's success..


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

BSK It is really a bad idea to allow a deer population to exist without any older bucks. They are really essential to herd function. [/QUOTE said:


> BSK, more than one Michigan official involved in deer management has stated that there is no science that clearly supports this. And that is what has been preached to our Natural Resource Commission. Furthermore, I have reason to believe this opinion is shared by our new DNR director. That is what we're up against in our fair state.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

farmlegend,

Ya, same mantra I hear from many state agencies. There are still a few who will say there is no proof QDM works. They refuse to read the research that has been done. They just put on the blinders and keep repeating, "the sky is NOT falling" over and over until they believe it. I've never quite understood their resistance.

Yes, the effects of older bucks have been well documented. What HASN'T been proven yet is exact how it works--at the molecular level. It is assumed to be a pheromone interaction, but isolating airborne molecules and their effect on another animal is very, very difficult research.


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