# Critics say ATV design still too dangerous



## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Critics say ATV design still too dangerous 

http://www.mlive.com/news/chronicle/index.ssf?/base/news-12/118589313484820.xml&coll=8

08/01/07 NEWHOUSE NEWS SERVICE WITH LOCAL REPORTS 
They are supposed to be fun, get-around vehicles for children and adults.

But the ATVs that zip along farm fields and wooded trails throughout Michigan and beyond have become death machines for some. 

Whitehall's Ben Peterson, 18, is the state's latest victim. Peterson, a talented three-sport athlete, was not wearing a helmet when he was killed Friday while driving a friend's ATV in Kent County. 

He is the seventh area person known to have died in an ATV accident since 1982, when the off-road vehicles first were built. Last year, two area deaths were reported. Through 2006, Michigan ranked seventh in the nation in ATV deaths with 280. 

Thirteen people died last year in ATV crashes on public roads in Michigan. Government statistics for ATV fatalaties this year are not yet available but Peterson was the first area person to die on a four-wheeler. 

Nearly 20 years ago, the federal government declared ATVs an "imminent hazard" and forced manufacturers to drop unstable three-wheel models in favor of the four-wheelers sold today. Regulators also compelled the ATV industry to adopt safety warnings and offer rider training to stem the accidents. 

Since then, federal officials have done little more than tally the dead, and the failure of their approach can be seen in the grim body counts from Oregon to West Virginia. 

The rate of injuries per ATV has barely budged from where it stood in the years after the government acted in 1988. Though death rates initially plummeted as three-wheelers disappeared, there's been scant improvement since.

Over the past decade, the machines have soared in popularity, with 7.6 million in use. The result: Record numbers of riders end up in emergency rooms and morgues as accidents kill about 800 people a year and injure an estimated 136,700. 

"This is one of the worst examples ever of a government agency failing in its fundamental mission to protect the American public," Stuart M. Statler, a former U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission member, said of the agency's inability to significantly reduce ATV deaths and injuries during the past two decades. 

Nearly 8,000 people have died in ATV crashes since the commission began counting, and 2 million have been seriously hurt.

A quarter of the dead and nearly a third of the injured are children. 

Safety risks haven't dented the allure of ATVs. Over the past decade, sales tripled to $5 billion a year as companies introduced bigger, faster models. 

Though companies have added new features such as four-wheel drive and power steering, they haven't eliminated a long-standing problem: overturns. 

The machines flip over with punishing regularity -- smashing faces, breaking necks, crushing chests. 

Peterson apparently died from head injuries after being thrown from the ATV. 

According to Kent County Sheriff's Department reports, Peterson was driving a Yamaha off-road vehicle down a gravel driveway on a friend's property in Cascade Township when he lost control as he crossed a 13-foot-high concrete-and-stone bridge over a creek. Peterson was thrown and landed in shallow water. 

Peterson's sister, Bethany Kulesza, said her brother was an experienced rider.

"He was riding his friend's (ATV), but our family always had them," she said. "He knew how to ride. The (ATV) did flip over on its side, but it was probably a case where my little brother was going a little too fast and it was dark. 

"Accidents happen. We believe in God and believe there is a time for all of us. You can't live your life in fear." 

The major manufacturers -- Honda, Polaris, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Bombardier and Arctic Cat -- insist their machines are safe and stable if operated properly. They fault riders for accidents.

"The safety issue is with the appropriate use," said William Willen, a lawyer for ATV market leader Honda. "It's how people use the machines." 

But reckless riders are only part of the problem. The federal government has not extensively tested ATV stability since at least 1991. An engineering firm hired by The Oregonian newspaper of Portland, Ore., tested the stability of four popular ATV models and concluded they were dangerously prone to overturns. 

The newspaper also analyzed fatal crashes and reached a surprising finding: Overturns were as common among riders who appeared to be obeying basic safety warnings as among those who didn't. 

Together, the results point to the role that ATV design plays in many crashes, yet regulators have largely ignored it. Meanwhile, abundant evidence shows that riders don't follow the warnings and decline free training programs, the key tenets of the government and industry approach to safety. 

The costs associated with ATV accidents aren't borne by victims alone. Taxpayers and employers pick up about $3 billion a year in medical expenses through government and private insurance, the consumer agency has estimated. 

Federal records show that more than half of those who die on ATVs perish in crashes where the machines roll over sideways or flip forward or backward. In some cases, overturns happen after the ATV hits something or tumbles off a steep drop. 

But about a third of the time, the government data show, rollovers are the first known event in a fatal crash. And as ATV companies make heavier machines, overturns pose an increasing danger. The Arctic Cat 500, for example, weighs more than 600 pounds. 

ATV companies are quick to point to the large number of crashes in which riders ignore warnings. That is true more than 80 percent of the time in the government's database of fatal crashes. 

But failure to comply with warnings doesn't always explain rollovers. 

ATV manufacturers don't dispute that their machines can roll or flip. Instead, they argue that ATVs are a special breed of vehicle they describe as "rider-active." In other words, it's up to drivers to keep the ATV upright by shifting their body weight from side to side or front to back.


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

An unstable sport: ATV industry's clout has effect on regulations

http://www.mlive.com/news/chronicle/index.ssf?/base/news-12/1185979513200610.xml&coll=8

08/01/07 By Brent Walth Newhouse News Service with local reports

Roy Deppa knows why all-terrain vehicles often maim and kill: They roll over and crush their riders. 

He knew it nearly a quarter-century ago -- when he ran thousands of tests on ATVs for the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission. What bothers Deppa now is why it's been so hard to stop the injuries and deaths. 

"You're looking at a very frustrated guy," says Deppa, an agency engineer who retired in 2005. "I've spent my career trying to make these things safer, and it seems every time I tried, someone or something stopped me."

The story of how the nation's top consumer watchdog agency has failed to fix one of the ATV's most obvious hazards -- instability -- is a tale of regulatory timidity and industry clout. 

Each year, ATV accidents send about 136,000 riders to emergency rooms and kill 800 more. About one of every three fatal crashes starts with the ATV overturning. 

Deppa's former agency once stood up to the makers of ATVs by taking aggressive legal action to push three-wheel models off the market, a move that slashed death and injury rates. 

But since then, the agency hasn't challenged the design of four-wheel ATVs. Instead, it has often bowed to the ATV manufacturers' views. 

Over the past decade, ATVs have become wildly popular. More than 7 million are in use, and consumers buy about 900,000 a year. 

Rick Sly, owner of West Shore Motorsports in Muskegon, said ATV sales for sports models were more robust years ago, but have slowed down recently. Sport models are designed for speed and recreational use. Utility models are used more for hauling and farm usage. 

"Sales aren't what they were a few years ago when there were more places to ride," said Sly. "We probably sell utility ATVs 10 to 1 compared to sport ATVs."

Tom Dibble, a sales representative at Babbitt's Sports Center, also said his business sells a lot of ATVs and most customers prefer the utility types. 

" What my customers is that its something they can justify for practical use, do some work with and enjoy some recreation too, so it makes a lot of sense to them," he said. 

Today's ATVs are faster, heavier and more sophisticated, with many models featuring four-wheel drive, power steering and heavy-duty suspensions.

All those factors could affect rollovers, but Deppa says the agency hasn't done any meaningful stability testing since 1991 even though casualty counts continue to rise. 

"They chose to stick their head in the dirt and essentially ignore it instead of giving it the priority that it deserved," says Leonard Goldstein, a retired commission lawyer who worked extensively on ATV issues during his 32 years at the agency. "I'm sure they were hoping against hope the numbers would improve, which they didn't." 

The commission oversees 15,000 consumer products. Because of decades of belt-tightening, it does so with about half the staff it once did. Even some in the ATV industry say the agency lacks the resources it needs. 

"There's too few people and too little money to do the job correctly," said Michael A. Brown, the commission's former executive director who became Honda's lead lawyer on ATV matters. "It's a scandal." 

In part, it's also a matter of good intentions gone awry. Moving to more stable, four-wheel models was an improvement, but a side effect was to shift the safety debate to rider behavior and away from ATV design. 

"The machines that are out there now essentially have the blessing of the agency," Deppa says. "And if you're going to bless them, you're going to have to live with the carnage." 

In 1985, the Consumer Product Safety Commission launched a full-scale inquiry into ATVs, and Deppa's tests revealed that even at slow speeds, the machine had a "bucking bronco" effect that a rider couldn't always correct. The machines could roll and flip before riders knew they were in danger. 

The tests helped show the machines were especially dangerous for kids, who lacked the judgment to stay out of risky situations.


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

They been saying that about motorcycles for 75 years and they're still around.

It isn't the ATV that is the problem it's the idiot behind the wheel.........

Give a guy a couple of beers and put him on a sport quad and there's trouble to be had................:rant:


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

That is why they are called critics. They also probablly never rode anything more dangerous then there car.


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## CAMODIAK (Jun 19, 2006)

Right On Bigcountry...nicely Put...
I Got Rid Of My Quad Because It Was To Tippy...i Bought A Three Wheeler Instead:d


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## eddiejohn4 (Dec 23, 2005)

All machines have to be respected, and common sense applied. I do not travel at warp speed with the wife on the back of our bombardier. We just enjoy riding and also use it for ice fishing ,hunting .work etc.


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## fasthunter (Sep 15, 2006)

All I've gotta say is. If it isn't dangerous it's not fun!!!!:evilsmile


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## Final Cast (Jul 30, 2007)

I like how the first example they give is of a kid not wearing his helmet. You can ride a pedal bike and take a spill without a helmet and die. Respect the machine and know you limits. Riding a cruiser or street bike on the rode is way more dangerous IMO.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

CAMODIAK said:


> Right On Bigcountry...nicely Put...
> I Got Rid Of My Quad Because It Was To Tippy...i Bought A Three Wheeler Instead:d


 
Are you insane man. A fourwheeler is much safer then a 3wheeler. 

Although I am wanting the old Honda 350 Big Red three wheeler for hunting.


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

CAMODIAK said:


> I Got Rid Of My Quad Because It Was To Tippy...i Bought A Three Wheeler Instead


huh???
There's a reason it's against the law for kids under 16 to operate 3 wheelers on state trails....


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## CAMODIAK (Jun 19, 2006)

Relax, It Was Joke....
I Did Get Rid Of It, Just Not To A Trike.
Although, I Did Just Pick Up An Old 200s Last Weekend.
Big, When Im Done With Restoring It, I I Can Throw Some Racks On It And A Few Stickers And Call It A Big Red And Sell It To Ya


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

CAMODIAK said:


> Relax, It Was Joke....
> I Did Get Rid Of It, Just Not To A Trike.
> Although, I Did Just Pick Up An Old 200s Last Weekend.
> Big, When Im Done With Restoring It, I I Can Throw Some Racks On It And A Few Stickers And Call It A Big Red And Sell It To Ya


 
I don't think so because I want the 350 big red not the 250.


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## puttputt (Aug 2, 2005)

Mark my words: by the year 2010, you'll be riding a five-wheeler.




:lol:


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## CAMODIAK (Jun 19, 2006)

good one puttputt

big, i think the bigred only comes in a 250...???
but i could be wrong, the wife says i always am:sad:


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

CAMODIAK said:


> good one puttputt
> 
> big, i think the bigred only comes in a 250...???
> but i could be wrong, the wife says i always am:sad:


I maybe wrong I thought there was a 350 version.


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## fasthunter (Sep 15, 2006)

puttputt said:


> Mark my words: by the year 2010, you'll be riding a five-wheeler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 With a safety bubble around it:yikes::lol::lol:


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

It's a viscious circle I tell ya........

Stupid people breed.....
Stupid people let stupid offspring do stupid things.....
Stupid offspring dies......smart people pay
My point? (other than stupid people shouldn't breed)

People die getting in and out of the shower, yet there is no ban on showers! People die daily for stupid and tragic reasons...the gov't can't change that.


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## 8nchuck (Apr 20, 2006)

I guess this means EBAY will no longer allow the sale of, or parts for ATV's.


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## fasthunter (Sep 15, 2006)

Swamp Monster said:


> It's a viscious circle I tell ya........
> 
> Stupid people breed.....
> Stupid people let stupid offspring do stupid things.....
> ...


 How true this is!!!


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

I don't think that because someone has an accident that they are "stupid" or have stupid parents etc. In the article it isn't people who were hurt or their families who are complaining but people who colect data and figure they should be outlawed or improved. A great deal of experienced riders have had accidents, doesn't mean they were stupid or necessarily riding improperly.


cars kill thousands every year.

Ganzer


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

Accidents happen to experienced riders? Yes they do. To have an accident the operator has to do something wrong, be it speed, off camber riding or other improper riding habits. Riding an ATV correctly, lawfully and within the limits of the machine will NOT cause an accident. To have any accident is always operator error and not the fault of the machine.......the machine is safe if driven within the confines of its limits.


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## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

950 cc as noted nearby will help.


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## bklompy (Apr 6, 2005)

three wheelers were never dangerous just the idiot on it driving it trust me i know i had a honda big red 200 and a yamaha 225dx yes i got hurt on those things why because i was doing something stupid like cornering at high speed and trying to slide the back around more like i drove it like i stole it. also inexperiance plays a large role. when idiots on this site recomend some one who has never driven one to buy and i quote " dont buy anything smaller than a 500 youll be disapointed". I dont need the govt protecting me from every little thing thank you.
honda never made a 350 big red i belive it was a racing machine


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## Spotyee (Aug 8, 2007)

Critics are always gonna say something about something fun!


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## Captain Tan Can (Nov 9, 2005)

I suppose that they could make them more stable by widening the wheel stance to about 6' and lowering it so the clearance is about 3". Put sensors on the engine so that it shuts down if you exceed a certain MPH when on an angle. Limit engine size to 90 cc and require a full body inflatable air bag suit that would require an interlock with the ignition to turn it on. When will people understand that STUPID KILLS !!!!. Either the rider is stupid for driving too fast for conditions, for not wearing a helmet, or the parent is stupid for letting kids get on the 800 Outlander and see how fast they can go and still hang on. The same condition applies to motorcycles, boats, PWC, mountain bikes, cars and guns. Maybe it's GOD's way of making sure the genes don't pass on to successive generations.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

MERGANZER said:


> I don't think that because someone has an accident that they are "stupid" or have stupid parents etc. In the article it isn't people who were hurt or their families who are complaining but people who colect data and figure they should be outlawed or improved. A great deal of experienced riders have had accidents, doesn't mean they were stupid or necessarily riding improperly.
> 
> 
> cars kill thousands every year.
> ...



Ofcourse you don't have to be stupid, but according to the handfull of deaths in my area that I have read about this year, it certainly helps!!! Stupid kids with no helmets, riding double....all going to fast or riding the quad outside it's design limitations. I consider those kids stupid....or at least they were. And in a couple of these sad cases, the parents knowingly allowed them to ride the quad that way...those parents were/are stupid. there's a saying that claims you can't fix stupid.....but ofcourse the facts say stupid certainly can be fixed but only with tragic results.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

CL-Lewiston said:


> 950 cc as noted nearby will help.



CC size has nothing to do with it, but your obviously going to believe what you want regardless of the truth.


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## Sargeyork (Dec 9, 2004)

Yes, alot of the problem is parents let kid's ride with no training or supervision, anyone under 16 and inexperienced is not supposed to be riding anything over 90cc I believe, there are big lawyer stickers on the ATV's saying this that you can't miss. Alot of people let their 10 or 12 year old on a 500 or 600cc machine with no helmet and no sense and wonder why the kid gets it going 60mph and creams themselves into a tree or ditch, gosh why couldn't they control a 500 pound machine with a child's reflexes and strength and 100 lb body? I see it all the time in the thumb, last monday a guy was on M19 near Argyle going down the road like everything was OK.


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

I think part of the problem with quads is that they're easy to ride. Just about anybody can get on one and with a few minutes of instruction be able to ride it. They feel confident after a little while of riding and push it a little harder. Not knowing the limits of the machine it flips over onto them in the blink of an eye and the weight of the quad either injures or crushes them if it's kids involved. 

Parents need to realize the dangers involved in kids riding full size quads. Ignorance is no excuse when these accidents happen. I've seen a few bits with quads on Americas Funniest Videos that make me wonder how some adults have managed to survive this long.


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

Yup stupid people do stupid things. Also you don't have to be stupid to do stupid things...........

Person down the road from me lets his kids/grandkids ride 2 and 3 at a time on their quad....10 to 12 years old or less..........with no helmets.....most every weekend.........up and down our private road.......2 sitting front wards and a third at times riding backwards..................with no helmets................oh the quad owner is a chief of police........:yikes:.

Have been reported to DNR but they stopped them once and brought them back home with NO ticket, go figure.....

DNR did call me saying that it has been handled and won't happen again, RIGHT...............


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## fasthunter (Sep 15, 2006)

You guys I think you missed the point the guy was saying about stupid people. Notice the part where he's stating the gov't can't change that. I think the point he was getting at is that the gov't tries to dictate each and everything we do FOR OUR SAFETY!! People are going to crash either way. Educate them to make them better riders and to help prevent tragedie's. Riding in itself is inherantly risky. THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT FUN!! At least to me. Before you know it they'll want a safety bubble around it. Where did the risk and having fun go to a point. Yeah, common sense should be used. Don't take the fun out of it for those like me though.

P.S- Someone also commented about people saying DON'T GET ANYTHING LESS THAT A CERTAIN CC OR YOU WON'T BE HAPPY!!........Well, I agree with the guy there. People need to know there limitations. If you want to push them.......SLOWLY build up your confidence and skill first. THEN still use common sense. EVERYONE CRASHES!!! I've done it a few times myself. Usually pushing too hard though.:evil:


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## DetroitIron (Dec 4, 2003)

I've just picked up a nice 1984 Honda 200S three wheeler myself. Never had a
3 wheeler before, always motorcycles, but I recall riding my buddies 200S back in the mid 80's, fun little machine IF YOU RESPECT IT AND RIDE WITHIN YOUR LIMITS. We rode it that way and had a blast, never going beyond our limits and being a stupid a%% about it. 

I can't stand all these "know it alls" that tell us whats dangerous and how to live our lives. "I"ve worked my life to make these things safer"...blah blah blah. I've ridden the biggest and baddest dirt bikes and motorcycles that were made (Honda CR500R, Yamaha Vmax very tricked out), and like the poster said, its the person that is on the machine. You must respect the machine you're on, the terrain you are on, and your own personal limits. 

I recall the day I bought my brand new Yamaha YZ490 two stroke back in mid 80's. I didn't have a truck at the time, so I called my buddy and he picked it up with his truck. Back at my house, he begged and pleaded to let me ride. I reluctantly let him, only after giving him a stern warning: "This thing will throw you off like raggedy ann in a second - don't be stupid". What does he do? He starts trying to ride wheelies. I was shaking my head "no, no", so with all my neighbors sitting on their porches here in Dearborn, he flips the bike over when it hit its 2-stroke 55 horsepower powerband, and spit him right off, my new bike that I HADN'T EVEN THREW A LEG OVER YET goes skidding down the street, breaking my rear fender, side panel, aluminum silencer and grinding down my footpeg. My buddy had "strawberries" all up and down his arms, legs, back and shoulders from skidding on the cement. I didn't feel sorry for him at all. 

Above all, its the rider. 

Regarding Honda Big Red, they made a 200 and a 250. I've been targeting a 250 for ice fishing, couldn't find one for a decent price, then I came accross this 200S for a very good price. I have a ball I just threw on it and a rear rack, can't wait to use it for hunting, ice fishing, hauling wood, and just putsint around.


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