# new youth season



## varminthunter (Dec 19, 2005)

Ya,
or take an indian kid out hunting and shoot how ever many they want when they want.


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## LCO (Jun 26, 2015)

varminthunter said:


> Ya,
> or take an indian kid out hunting and shoot how ever many they want when they want.


I know Ohio does in mid November.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

red wolf said:


> Again why would anyone pick just 2 days vs 3 months that is a joke to me.. if you cant find time in 3 months to hunt with kids that you need a special 2 day hunt that will not interfere with all 3 mounths you get to hunt you have issues. That is just wrong.. kids deserve better..



It isn't just 2 days. It is 2 more days of hunting. I would wish that for anyone.


I dont understand your dislike for this. You and I didn't get the youth hunt when we were kids. You act like it is an atrocity the kids today get it.....I can only think of how cool it would have been if we did.


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## au5952 (Oct 18, 2011)

Great replies all, and i absolutely agree that there are adults that need to go to the range. I guess my curiosity is this, i have seen many nice buck pictures posted, congrats by the way to all the youths. Heres the questions if it was does only how much would youth participation drop? Secondly after seeing and reading posts i am curious about this "sample post" 9 year old john smith 10 point, any county 200 yard shot with 300 ultra mag. Am i totally wrong or does it seem like alot of youngsters are shooting great distances with large caliber rifles. If they are great. That was my earlier point about shooting at a range. Its very important to get youths out in the field and intrested in hunting, its more important to teach them how to be a responsible, ethical hunter, just my two sense. Have a great day everyone


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

red wolf said:


> Not personally directed to you ridge walker. But almost every post related to the youth hunt starts or end it was more fun for me. Or i cant wait until... i dont really think the kids care what day or weekend they go hunting.. they will hsve fun just like we do..
> 
> It is the people that take the youth that live the vicarious hunt at that time because they cant hunt..


red wolf, these past two weekends, the state of Michigan has set aside for adults to devote to taking children hunting. Two weekends ago, I took a friend and his daughter waterfowl hunting. This past weekend, I shared with my son his last youth deer hunt. To me, these are some of the most enjoyable weekends of the entire year. To experience the out of doors through the eyes of children is a joyful experience. Why would you belittle those that do so?

Please enlighten us. Explain to us why it is wrong for adults to enjoy the opportunity and live a hunt vicariously through the experiences of children.

Why have you initiated this sarcastic post and why would you direct sarcastic, vitriolic comments at those who have spent time this weekend guiding children?

If you do respond to my questions, I suggest that you do so without name calling as a thread similar to this one that you initiated was recently shut down by a moderator as it got out of hand.


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## jiggineyes (Feb 19, 2005)

#jealous
#asshurt

Hunters are shrinking in record numbers. It is important to give the young generation as good of a chance as possible at taking a deer. This ensures a good experience and a better chance of success. Which will instill the excitement and the thrill of the sport. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## TCcrawdad (Jul 10, 2015)

Edited


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## J D (Jan 19, 2011)

10 days and 3 bucks I believe was a joke


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

au5952 said:


> Secondly after seeing and reading posts i am curious about this "sample post" 9 year old john smith 10 point, any county 200 yard shot with 300 ultra mag. Am i totally wrong or does it seem like alot of youngsters are shooting great distances with large caliber rifles. If they are great. That was my earlier point about shooting at a range. Its very important to get youths out in the field and intrested in hunting, its more important to teach them how to be a responsible, ethical hunter, just my two sense. Have a great day everyone


I thought the same thing... I started shooting well without help by 6 or 7 yr old. But no way would I ever have thought it was ethical to take a shot over 150-200 yd until I was probably 14-16. With practice and the right rifle, 400+ is very doable. If the kid practiced and made the shot reliably, okay take the shot. But if not... deciding its out of range for the skill level is a valuable lesson in ethics. Congrats to the mentors who taught the kids to shoot that well and to the kid for executing a good shot that MANY adults would fail to make. Heck I know guys who can't make a 60 yd shot lol!


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## TCcrawdad (Jul 10, 2015)

J D said:


> 10 days and 3 bucks I believe was a joke


Oops that went right over my head. Don't shoot!️


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## R.J.M. (Jun 10, 2007)

A little different take on the youth hunt what if half of these kids after the age of 17 move on and don't continue to hunt . But they do vote on Election Day


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

R.J.M. said:


> A little different take on the youth hunt what if half of these kids after the age of 17 move on and don't continue to hunt . But they do vote on Election Day


Yea... I deleted a comment earlier but basically if we don't keep hunting alive all those Anti's and liberals will have their way with us...


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

To me it is very simple..
I must keep asking.

Why is it so hard to take a kid hunting between oct 1st and jan 1st?
Honesty why?
I love the fact age is not an issue like 12 and 16 was for most of us. kids can and should be able to hunt younger with supervison.

The strongest age of hunters are the groups that never had a youth hunt growing up. Becauae it is not needed.

When we desided to hunt to balance the natural resources a season was established. Hunters controlled the population and tags created reviews for the wildlife.

So the youth hunt or any early special personal season is not needed to ballance anything.. if it is about ballance start everyone earlier or later..

No kid will become a life long hunter because 2 days in September vs any 2 day in oct nov or dec. The kid just want to be part of the experience. The joy you get watching the kids shoot is the exact same feeling the kid has when mom or dad shoot. Salivating for when dad will slide over so it is the kids turn.. this should never be controlled by a date or a title like youth hunt..

You ether will love hunting or not very simple. Like i said starting early in age is good stating hunting early just to justify dedication and attention to a youth because your season is not interfered with that is way more selfish.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

red wolf said:


> To me it is very simple..
> I must keep asking.
> 
> Why is it so hard to take a kid hunting between oct 1st and jan 1st?
> ...


LOL. Why is it so hard for you understand that the youth hunt doesn't do anything to take away from all the other times parents and grandparents and mentors take children afield? No one ever has labored under the illusion that the youth hunt is the only time to take a child afield.

You're seeking solutions for problems which don't exist.


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## LCO (Jun 26, 2015)

red wolf said:


> To me it is very simple..
> I must keep asking.
> 
> Why is it so hard to take a kid hunting between oct 1st and jan 1st?
> ...


October 1-November 14 is bow only. Most kids can't shoot enough poundage with a bow. 
Cross bows are expensive. Not everyone can afford to buy s kid one. 
Most hunters own a gun. A gun is not too hard to shoot. You can set things up for a kid to shoot a gun that can not be done with a bow. 

So I see two options. 
1. Leave the rules regulations and dates of the youth hunt as is because it works. 
2. Allow youths to use guns during the regular seasons starting October 1.


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## kaler9969 (Feb 25, 2005)

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/f...ing-youth-hunt-400-yards.548406/#post-5637163

You've got far too much invested in being pissed off about the youth hunt. Moving on...


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## spikekilla (Jan 6, 2009)

red wolf said:


> To me it is very simple..
> I must keep asking.
> 
> Why is it so hard to take a kid hunting between oct 1st and jan 1st?
> ...



Now I must ask... why do you care ?


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## I'llbeoutside (Feb 2, 2003)

red wolf said:


> To me it is very simple..
> I must keep asking.
> 
> Why is it so hard to take a kid hunting between oct 1st and jan 1st?
> ...


I find it completely hilarious that this bothers you so much. Did a neighbor kid or a disabled vet kill a deer you had your eyes on? I hope so. So you obviously have a huge problem with the kids getting two days before you but what about the Vets/disabled?


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

No free lunch we all hunt as hunter vets kids adults and disabled.. 

No one needs extra days or seasons.. we are all hunters and all pay the price to be equal no matter what age or direction we picked in life or were handed.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

red wolf said:


> No free lunch we all hunt as hunter vets kids adults and disabled..
> 
> No one needs extra days or seasons.. we are all hunters and all pay the price to be equal no matter what age or direction we picked in life or were handed.


Yep, I'llbe nailed it. Wolf had a big buck targeted that some kid shot during the youth hunt. Now he's pissed. And I thought the crossbow crybabies were bad.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Next time i pass a guy standing on the side of the road asking for food/money that gets dropped off in a Cadillac the same time daily.. talking on a smart phone continues i will drop a doe tag in his bag and a calander highlighting eas


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## billmitch (Dec 21, 2009)

DirtySteve said:


> If that man isn't hunting by the time he is grown up it is likely too late for him.
> 
> These 2 additional days are good for so many reasons. You anti youth hunt guys haven't given a single.good reason not to have it.
> 
> I can talk a non hunting nervous mother into allowing me to take their youth by selling them the fact that there won't be 700k hunters out there hunting. I can devote my full attention to keeping their kid safe. This is more important than the average hunting father that takes his own kid. Those kids will most likely experienced hunting regardless of the youth hunt. Some of the kids I have taken that grew up in non hunting families may not have ever had the chance.


My nephew comes from a non hunting family. His mom cringed like you wouldn't believe when I asked if I could take him. She relented in large part to the fact that she felt it was a "safer time without all the drinker idiots in the woods". Because of the excitement and fun of that hunt, he has purchased a license for 3 years now and so has his dad. Youth hunt is a great think that has worked to bring hunters into the fold.


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## au5952 (Oct 18, 2011)

skipper34 said:


> It doesn't, rest assured.


http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/...er-guidelines-278297501.html?device=phone&c=y


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

I'm still waiting on a good reason red wolf. The crap you keep spewing is not a good reason. Again are you mad that there's a youth duck hunt? How come you not pounding your chest on that one? It's 2, TWO, freaking days. It's 2 weeks before the season. I'm guessing everyone stomping through the woods between now and then is going to have a bigger effect on things then a 2 day hunt 2 weeks prior. They get an "unfair" advantage and you mad bro. Your in the minority on this.


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## au5952 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntmich said:


> I'm still waiting on a good reason red wolf. The crap you keep spewing is not a good reason. Again are you mad that there's a youth duck hunt? How come you not pounding your chest on that one? It's 2, TWO, freaking days. It's 2 weeks before the season. I'm guessing everyone stomping through the woods between now and then is going to have a bigger effect on things then a 2 day hunt 2 weeks prior. They get an "unfair" advantage and you mad bro. Your in the minority on this.


This might be a reason why some hunters are against the youth hunt..

http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/...er-guidelines-278297501.html?device=phone&c=y


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## tdduckman (Jan 17, 2001)

au5952 said:


> http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/...er-guidelines-278297501.html?device=phone&c=y



Conclusive proof that there are poachers

You convinced me lets close it all down (not) 

Still not a 300 win Mag 

lol 

TD


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

I disagree with the penalty by antler points. Should be the same stiff fine for all IMO.


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## Honkkilla59 (Dec 12, 2013)

au5952 said:


> This might be a reason why some hunters are against the youth hunt..
> 
> http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/...er-guidelines-278297501.html?device=phone&c=y


Well its a pretty retarded excuse to use against the youth hunt.
Do you believe a poacher cares what season he violates in?
Have you known any guys who have tagged deer using thier wifes,girlfriend, farmers or friends tags.
I'm sure that happens so why not just suspend all hunting because of a few criminals.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

tdduckman said:


> Conclusive proof that there are poachers
> 
> You convinced me lets close it all down (not)
> 
> ...


The state has addressed that issue. They created stiffer fines and that case 1 yr ago got alot of press. The best part about it was that it was friends and family that turned him in because they couldn't stand to see the child posted with the pics on social media. I believe there is very little of this going on by many for that reason alone. The risk is too great.


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

Cause that wouldn't have happened if there wasn't a youth season. Sure.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

I keep telling you all seasons that is not just deer duck anything.. 

Most of the people defending it that take kids all year would have no issues with no youth season.. go perch fishing with the kids one last time.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Huntmich said:


> Cause that wouldn't have happened if there wasn't a youth season. Sure.


Would have been legal in regular season because the guy may have used his own tags. I'm sure it wasn't the first time though. But... the youth season gave him the easy opportunity. Sad that he took advantage.


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## tdduckman (Jan 17, 2001)

au5952 said:


> Make it does only for the youth season, seems like a simple solution?? Also how about a youth / adult class prior to the youth season held by the DNR, where the youth needs to target shoot with the weapon that will be used during the youth hunt? After which they will receive their youth hunting license. The integrity of hunting needs to be protected and also passed on to the next generation. Just my thoughts.



How about all adults have to qualify with their weapon every year lots of empty woods then.


TD


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

red wolf said:


> I keep telling you all seasons that is not just deer duck anything..
> 
> Most of the people defending it that take kids all year would have no issues with no youth season.. go perch fishing with the kids one last time.


red wolf, You are mistaken in this matter.

I would also like to point out that it is very inappropriate for a man to expend so much energy publically speaking out against the opportunities that society affords to children and disabled veterans. It is not something to be proud of.


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

sureshot006 said:


> Would have been legal in regular season because the guy may have used his own tags. I'm sure it wasn't the first time though. But... the youth season gave him the easy opportunity. Sad that he took advantage.


It doesn't matter. If someone's gonna poach, they're gonna poach. Whether it's youth season, early season, duck season squirrel season or mushroom season. Poachers gonna poach


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Huntmich said:


> It doesn't matter. If someone's gonna poach, they're gonna poach. Whether it's youth season, early season, duck season squirrel season or mushroom season. Poachers gonna poach


I agree 100%. But this was an easy opportunity. Would have been much more difficult if it were archery or they went nocturnal.

I am not saying take away the youth hunt. The hunt isn't the problem, its some adults.


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

red wolf said:


> I keep telling you all seasons that is not just deer duck anything..
> 
> Most of the people defending it that take kids all year would have no issues with no youth season.. go perch fishing with the kids one last time.


I guess you need to get over to that forum and start banging your chest over there too. All I hear is a bunch of whining. Give me a good reason not to have it. The "free lunch" argument isn't it. It's 2 more days in the field. Antis try to get seasons taken away, and here we have a couple extra added days to get out in the field, but it doesn't benefit you. Guess what, it doesn't benefit me either, but I'm not whining.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

red wolf said:


> I keep telling you all seasons that is not just deer duck anything..
> 
> Most of the people defending it that take kids all year would have no issues with no youth season.. go perch fishing with the kids one last time.


Still waiting for the pictures of the many different youths you have introduced to hunting during the regular seasons.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Muzzeloader season


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

red wolf said:


> I keep telling you all seasons that is not just deer duck anything..
> 
> Most of the people defending it that take kids all year would have no issues with no youth season.. go perch fishing with the kids one last time.


There is alot of people that take kids out in all seasons but I feel that a very high percentage of them hunt private land, I don't think that there are very many kids on state land on opening day and the youth season gives those guys a chance to take a kid. When I hunted state my wife never wanted me to take a kid.
The youth hunt gives the kid a couple days that it's all about them, I had my daughter out this year and I did not carry a gun or bow, the hunt was for her, she picked the stand she wanted, she was in control with guidance. And unfortunately she didn't shoot anyone's deer. And yes she is not done but this weekend was just for her.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

That's a nice picture Red Wolf. Boy's wearing a camo pattern that was sold about 20 years ago. What year was that deer taken?

Certainly with a guy like you who is deeply committed to taking youth hunters out during the regular season there must be dozens of other pictures of youth hunters and their deer you can share with us.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

The camo jacket i picked up off the Mac tool truck in 96 he loved the jacket so i gave it to him. Not the best camo but he loved it and still has it.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

He is 18 now in college 1st year 2015


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Mid oct doe 38 lb bow


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Nov gun hunt.
I will not humor you with the rest


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

Ill take the kids out in september and not think twice about it.
Ill take them out during all the other seasons too. 
I may pick up my bow once or twice all season and the gun maybe once.
Rest of the times i go i have a youth with me.


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## I'llbeoutside (Feb 2, 2003)

red wolf said:


> What is so crazy about respecting everyone equal?
> 
> Drop the age like the state has so if a kid wants to hunt he/she can with supervison?
> 
> ...


Don't worry-after reading all the crap you've been spewing the last couple days I believe you are about equal to a 10-year-old. 8-year-old at least.
You want to be on equal playing field with kids and disabled vets? Pretty sad.


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## au5952 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntmich said:


> I guess you need to get over to that forum and start banging your chest over there too. All I hear is a bunch of whining. Give me a good reason not to have it. The "free lunch" argument isn't it. It's 2 more days in the field. Antis try to get seasons taken away, and here we have a couple extra added days to get out in the field, but it doesn't benefit you. Guess what, it doesn't benefit me either, but I'm not whining.


I say keep the season for the kids. But give me a reason why it cant be does only???


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

I don't have a legitimate reason to make it does only. If the DNR wants to change it to that, that's fine. I have no problem. Give me a reason why it has to be does only. I don't want to hear that the adults will shoot the bucks. They'll do it anyway whether it's does only, or mushroom season. Poachers poach cause that's what they do.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

You must be one of the dads that dont like to keep score at a game everyone is a winner.. And play my son because he likes the game .. barney lover... in the real world people win and lose.. get hired and fired. Picked and not picked. Sugar it any way you need to lets make a walleye kids only weekend on the Detroit river now. Again you live vicariously through your kids life for something you missed out on.. hang it up.


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

I couldn't imagine having to tell my kid no you can't shoot that buck then on Oct 1 put that same buck on the ground myself, in my opinion that would be telling the kid their not good enough to have shot it. At the end of the year about the same amount of bucks will be killed if they were able to shoot them during the youth hunt or not.


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

red wolf said:


> You must be one of the dads that dont like to keep score at a game everyone is a winner.. And play my son because he likes the game .. barney lover... in the real world people win and lose.. get hired and fired. Picked and not picked. Sugar it any way you need to lets make a walleye kids only weekend on the Detroit river now. Again you live vicariously through your kids life for something you missed out on.. hang it up.


What are you even talking about. Put down the sauce and find something better to do.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

.really really you just said the same amount would be killed.. again why do we need a youth hunt.......


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## I'llbeoutside (Feb 2, 2003)

You have done a great job proving that not everyone's a winner.


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

Where did I say the same amount would be killed?


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## au5952 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntmich said:


> I don't have a legitimate reason to make it does only. If the DNR wants to change it to that, that's fine. I have no problem. Give me a reason why it has to be does only. I don't want to hear that the adults will shoot the bucks. They'll do it anyway whether it's does only, or mushroom season. Poachers poach cause that's what they do.


Ok, first it would make it more


Huntmich said:


> I don't have a legitimate reason to make it does only. If the DNR wants to change it to that, that's fine. I have no problem. Give me a reason why it has to be does only. I don't want to hear that the adults will shoot the bucks. They'll do it anyway whether it's does only, or mushroom season. Poachers poach cause that's what they do.


While it would not stop all poaching, it would make it would make it more difficult, second reason QDM, third its suppose to be teaching kids and introducing them to hunting not to think they need a advantage to enjoy hunting or be successful . I for one enjoy seeing kids getting involved, but i wonder some times if some parents would still take their kids, grandkids, etc.. if it was does only.
Do you think you youth participation would drop?? Just my two cents. Good luck on the upcoming seasons everyone, and congratulations again to all the youths!!##


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

How does it make it more difficult? A poacher is a poacher. There is a early doe season too so I guess that should disappear too.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

I will always find time to hunt with new hunters young and old. I will not partake in the youth hunt i do not like it.. . i know in the end both intentions are for the better if we agree or not.. 

I will stand by my opinion a youth season is not required to introduce a youth to hunting successfully. 

I respect all your opinions who believe different. 

Good luck this year.. kids vets young old and disagreers


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

red wolf said:


> View attachment 190961
> 
> 
> Nov gun hunt.
> I will not humor you with the rest


Good pics Red Wolf, and no doubt some good memories to go with them. You haven't humored me to anywhere near the extent I asked, but you did humor me a little, and for that I give you credit.


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

I do feel that there would be less particapation. Unfortunately!!!!!


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

Qdm isn't the law. I know there are some Apr dmus, but I'm assuming the youths have to follow that law as well. I doubt that they think they need an advantage to enjoy hunting. I think it does exactly what your saying, teaches them and introducing them. If they keep doing it over the years they'll realize it'll all change as they get older.


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## au5952 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntmich said:


> How does it make it more difficult? A poacher is a poacher. There is a early doe season too so I guess that should disappear too.


In my opinon less likely hood of this occuring as youths would be unable to harvest bucks during the youth hunt.

http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/...er-guidelines-278297501.html?device=phone&c=y


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

This has to be one of the stupidest arguments I've ever been in. I personally don't see the youth hunt going anywhere. Could it change to does only one day, sure. I don't think it will come to that, but it's plausible. Poaching going to happen regardless and I really don't think it will drastically change one way or another if it's only does. That's my opinion and yours is only that too, an opinion. I'm tapping out of the ridiculous argument. On to the awesome super deer tag thread. That's a good one too. Bunch of grown crybabbies mad about kids shooting bucks is all it is.


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## agbuckhunter (Oct 12, 2011)

red wolf said:


> .really really you just said the same amount would be killed.. again why do we need a youth hunt.......


Why you just picking on the kids? Veterans and early doe opened as well that weekend. You're entitled to your opinion but statistics show were losing hunters and this is one way to recruit them....it's that simple. Give them an advantage before the pressure starts so there more successes than not. Look at how many life long hunters quit hunting the U.P. because the lack of deer and success. Buck, doe, fawn....majority of the dads would be damn proud for their child to get a deer. 

Why start a political topic to get hunters fighting against hunters....especially kids? Makes no sense to me.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks November Sunrise! 
Some of the best hunts and likewise when i was the shooter with them.. we are all ready for this year with high hopes. Xx

My season has already been completed in Ontario bear hunt with my best friend. Dad and nephew. I did not get a bear but fishing was insane. Booked for next year already and my nephew earned 500.00 credit with the outfitter.. he was helping skin bears. Process. Blood trail. Drag bears for all. 

My nephew turned the money cash down from the outfitter. When i re-booked at camp for 2016 he took 500.00 off my nephew bill.. pretty cool..


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

red wolf said:


> I keep telling you all seasons that is not just deer duck anything..
> 
> Most of the people defending it that take kids all year would have no issues with no youth season.. go perch fishing with the kids one last time.



You are correct. If there was no youth season I would still take my kids all yr. I probably would do more grouse hunting with them if the wasn't a youth duck and deer season. But what you don't get is having the youth season is even better. There isn't a reason not to have it. There have been no negative impacts on youths hunting or deer herd management. You are a very small minority.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

red wolf said:


> I keep telling you all seasons that is not just deer duck anything..
> 
> Most of the people defending it that take kids all year would have no issues with no youth season.. go perch fishing with the kids one last time.



You are correct. If there was no youth season I would still take my kids all yr. I probably would do more grouse hunting with them if the wasn't a youth duck and deer season. But what you don't get is having the youth season is even better. There isn't a reason not to have it. There have been no negative impacts on youths hunting or deer herd management. You are a very small minority.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

au5952 said:


> I say keep the season for the kids. But give me a reason why it cant be does only???



Because there is no reason to make it does only.


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

au5952 said:


> In my opinon less likely hood of this occuring as youths would be unable to harvest bucks during the youth hunt.
> 
> http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/...er-guidelines-278297501.html?device=phone&c=y


So if i find a poaching case of a bow hunter shooting bucks will you agree we should do away with the archery season ??? Then we wont have to listen to grown men cry like babies a kid is shooting their buck a whole 15 days earlier then they would !!


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

tdduckman said:


> Don't your kids play Hockey in a youth league where the ice is reserved for them or do they just go and skate with the Redwings?
> 
> 
> I am confused
> ...


That's funny right there.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

red wolf said:


> Next time i pass a guy standing on the side of the road asking for food/money that gets dropped off in a Cadillac the same time daily.. talking on a smart phone continues i will drop a doe tag in his bag and a calander highlighting eas


Somehow I'm not surprised that you would illegally provide a tag for someone else.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

au5952 said:


> I say keep the season for the kids. But give me a reason why it cant be does only???


Should all early seasons be does only? Early archery season comes to mind, why should archers be allowed to kill a buck prior to the first regular deer season of the year?


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

SH


poz said:


> But it's okay to demonize the kids that participate in it, by saying they don't need it. That's ridiculous


Show me where I demonize the kids POZ. After I have taken all of the kids...I rag on them for shooting the neighbor's buck! That is just how good I am at demonizing them. The youth hunt is a riot. Not necessary. Doesn't do what it was originally preached to do...I don't think. The demonization is done over and over by people who get mad at those who have practical objections to it! To deny it is what is ridiculous.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

DirtySteve said:


> If that man isn't hunting by the time he is grown up it is likely too late for him.
> 
> These 2 additional days are good for so many reasons. You anti youth hunt guys haven't given a single.good reason not to have it.
> 
> I can talk a non hunting nervous mother into allowing me to take their youth by selling them the fact that there won't be 700k hunters out there hunting. I can devote my full attention to keeping their kid safe. This is more important than the average hunting father that takes his own kid. Those kids will most likely experienced hunting regardless of the youth hunt. Some of the kids I have taken that grew up in non hunting families may not have ever had the chance.


"You anti youth guys." I am so anti I take people on it. 

You say no good reasons. Hmmm. The people really against it do have good reasons. Let 'em go so they can grow an be shot on a beanfield. Then there is the very real...make it so stinking easy, when the real work comes..they don't want any part of it. Then there is the why do they need a special season? So they can have fun? They can have that like we did when we started. THESE ARE ALL PERFECTLY VALID REASONS.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

Smokin-the-eyes said:


> The most important thing u can do for a kid as a parent or a mentor is give them a chance or opportunity to make you proud of them this hunt gives them two extra days to accomplish that


Some would argue the most important thing you can do for a kid is to be taught to hunt. Not pull a trigger and be done. You may not intend this but your response sort of sounds like...to be proud you must kill a deer.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

I waa


miruss said:


> To all the people that are against this youth hunt how many have had the opportunity to watch a persons first kill of a animal they never hunted before??? I've been lucky enough to witness the first hunts of a lot of different ones not just deer,turkey,geese,ducks and rabbits. Hell i sat in the truck while they used my deer blind ( husband and wife) she got her first deer that night !!!


I have guided LOTS of people to it...without the youth hunt. I could do even more with a spot light and rifle if they just made it legal.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

Huntmich said:


> He hasn't answered a lot of questions. Again, If it's not that they're shooting "your" buck, what's the big deal about 2 days 2 weeks before the bow opener? And why aren't you up in arms about the youth duck season? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to both..


It's simple...ducks are like does. Of those who object to youth season, probably the majority could care less about the does. No one really focuses on letting does walk so they can grow.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

jafurnier said:


> It's simple...ducks are like does. Of those who object to youth season, probably the majority could care less about the does. No one really focuses on letting does walk so they can grow.


I suspect those who hunt in areas where there aren't any antlerless tags due to low deer numbers would probably be less than enthusiastic about a doe only youth hunt.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

jafurnier said:


> "Then there is the very real...make it so stinking easy, when the real work comes..they don't want any part of it.


I'm mystified by the thought that deer hunting becomes so difficult October 1st. Took my 10 year old out for his first ever hunt last Saturday. Will probably take him again on Saturday October 3rd. Can't follow how it's going to be any easier or more difficult for him next time as compared to the 1st time.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

So just to summarize:

a) I take people on the youth hunt. I'm ok with it.

b) When I take kids on the youth hunt they can shoot a buck. They are not gonna shoot one that was let walk two years in a row. (Side note...I was out Sunday AM trying to get a doe when the biggest buck on my place walked up and started rubbing a tree. DUMB AS CAN BE. In three weeks he will be a genius. And...even then I will pass him hoping my friends who hunt hard get him.)

c) In many situations, it is significantly easier to kill a deer during the youth season. It often creates an unrealistic 
view of what it is like to harvest a deer. I have seen this was more often than I care to. Sort of disappointing actually.

d) It is AWESOME to see someone get their first deer. So awesome it is why I take kids out. Like a drug to me. That being said it is totally legitimate for someone to disagree that that is not a legitimate reason to make a special season.

e) The arguments that the youth hunt recruits long term hunters...still would like to see the data. I am not sure it does but I have no proof either way. My gut says no.

f) It is perfectly OK for someone to be upset/disappointed, etc when a buck they grow (yes people can grow a buck and it can cost lots of money and countless hours) get's whacked by someone who did nothing but sit on a beanfield and pull a trigger. I don't think they are being selfish.

g) When the youth hut was started it was not envisioned that the hunting age would be lowered and kids now get special treatment for year and years.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> I'm mystified by the thought that deer hunting becomes so difficult October 1st. Took my 10 year old out for his first ever hunt last Saturday. Will probably take him again on Saturday October 3rd. Can't follow how it's going to be any easier or more difficult for him next time as compared to the 1st time.


It become more difficult because you cannot shoot 200 yds on Oct 1 and get a deer. You also don't have the pressure which starts the annual...deer go find a cave process. It is easier.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

jafurnier said:


> It become more difficult because you cannot shoot 200 yds on Oct 1 and get a deer. You also don't have the pressure which starts the annual...deer go find a cave process. It is easier.


Like many other youth hunt participants, he was using a crossbow last week and will be using a crossbow next week. There's nothing he'll experience in October that's any more or less real than in September.

We hunt five counties within 50 miles of our home and have never experienced anything resembling deer going in a cave once archery season hunts. You make deer hunting sound much more difficult than anything I can relate to.


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## duckhunter187 (Mar 2, 2007)

red wolf said:


> What is so crazy about respecting everyone equal?
> 
> Drop the age like the state has so if a kid wants to hunt he/she can with supervison?
> 
> ...


This guy is probably the raining candy land champion in his house, those kids don't stand a chance.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> Like many other youth hunt participants, he was using a crossbow last week and will be using a crossbow next week. There's nothing he'll experience in October that's any more or less real than in September.
> 
> We hunt five counties within 50 miles of our home and have never experienced anything resembling deer going in a cave once archery season hunts. You make deer hunting sound much more difficult than anything I can relate to.


It's easier...hard to deny that.


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

jafurnier said:


> It's simple...ducks are like does. Of those who object to youth season, probably the majority could care less about the does. No one really focuses on letting does walk so they can grow.


The original argument was against a youth season all together, not just a doe season. I'm sure not all duck hunters are excited about the youth season either. Youth season is a youth season in regards to the original argument in my opinion. And I also agree with November Sunrise about does. Not everyone is going to be excited to see a doe taken either. Not every area is the same. The area on the northern lower most of my family hunts during rifle season is down as far as the deer herd. I'd much rather see the does walk and bucks be taken. Where I live however, is a different story. The deer herd seems pretty strong and I've seen some nice bucks recently. I just moved here in the spring so I'm pretty excited, but if a youth took a buck from around here during the youth hunt that's fine by me. I know there were some deer taken during the youth season as I heard no less the 8 shots.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

jafurnier said:


> It's easier...hard to deny that.


LOL. Some times I feel like I've entered an alternative universe with some of the theories I encounter on here.

There's not one single thing that was easier about our Saturday night hunt of last week as compared to the hunt we're hoping to have on Saturday the 3rd. I'm highly entertained by the thought that anyone would claim otherwise.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

jafurnier said:


> So just to summarize:
> 
> 
> 
> g) When the youth hut was started it was not envisioned that the hunting age would be lowered and kids now get special treatment for year and years.



You are probably right on this. Other states also have the youth hunt and then added mentor and apprentice type licenses. They also took it one step further in states like Iowa and the dakotas. They extended the youth seasons 2-3 weeks in length. Maybe we are just still behind the times here in michigan.

Iowa allows youths to hunt deer sept 19-oct 4th. Big game youth seasons in south dakota are atleast 2 weeks prior to adult hunting seasons.


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## Slats (Sep 21, 2015)

Haha lotta good laughs here!


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Look at iowa Dakota hunting population license sales..

Most of the people forget mi is still one of the highest in deer hunter numbers.

I would like to see this a 1 time youth hunt tag per youth. Almost like a mi bull elk tag. You get your 1 freebie at the extra early September season.

After you kill 1 as a youth your a successful hunter. Going forward your season starts on the 1st of October like the rest of us..


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## bigbuck (Mar 17, 2001)

DirtySteve said:


> You are probably right on this. Other states also have the youth hunt and then added mentor and apprentice type licenses. They also took it one step further in states like Iowa and the dakotas. They extended the youth seasons 2-3 weeks in length. Maybe we are just still behind the times here in michigan.
> 
> Iowa allows youths to hunt deer sept 19-oct 4th. Big game youth seasons in south dakota are atleast 2 weeks prior to adult hunting seasons.


I'm fine with adopting Iowa's youth hunt as long as we move our firearm season to December like Iowa.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

bigbuck said:


> I'm fine with adopting Iowa's youth hunt as long as we move our firearm season to December like Iowa.



That isn't a bad thought. My only worry is that dec is a bit late for the UP. Deer migration to yarding areas may be well under way. If the deer numbers were at levels from 10 yrs ago I would have suggested a split season. I don't think the herd could handle it now though. 

Could you imagine the financial impact on the UP if they could have a gun opener 10 days before the lower?


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## NovemberWhitetailz (Oct 10, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> That's a nice picture Red Wolf. Boy's wearing a camo pattern that was sold about 20 years ago. What year was that deer taken?
> 
> Certainly with a guy like you who is deeply committed to taking youth hunters out during the regular season there must be dozens of other pictures of youth hunters and their deer you can share with us.


This panzy of a 7 yr old likes to go out with us during muzzy season. We never shoot anything though  ha ha


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## Dynrat (Jun 13, 2003)

au5952 said:


> I also believe DNR should make all youth qualify at a range with the weapon they will hunt with before getting a youth license. The integrity of hunting needs to be protected. Just my two sense,


I don't have a problem with this idea, but...

My daughter had to prove to the hardest critic she could face (me) before she went into the woods. I was also very proud of her that at 13-years-old she passed up a chance to take her first buck because she "didn't want to take a shot she didn't _know_ she could make". 

The only thing I will add is that this idea should not be limited to just youth. There are plenty of adults out there that don't put in the practice time necessary to make a good clean shot either. I've taken several people (youth and adults) out to introduce them to hunting and I teach them all that practice and preparation are a mandatory part of hunting. I shoot with every one of them before I take them in the woods. I spend time throughout the year practicing with my bow and my firearms.


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## Dynrat (Jun 13, 2003)

au5952 said:


> The youth season is a good way to get kids involved. Heres a question to all that are for the youth season. If its about the getting the chance then it wouldn't matter if it was does only correct? Second question what would the drop of youth hunters be if it was does only? Third question would a dnr class be a good idea where a youth needs to shoot the weapon they will use during the youth season prior to receiving their youth license? Seems like i have read alot of stories about 8, 9, and 10 year olds shooting 150+ yards with larger caliber rifles. The integrity of the youth hunt needs to be protected, and having a feeling if it was does only that youth numbers and parents, mentors, etc... participating may drop. Its a shame as its suppose to be about the hunting experience. Just my two cents, good luck everyone one the upcoming season and congratulations again to all youth hunters.


It is a little funny to me that I have heard several in this thread mention "does only". The mere fact that they mention it proves that this has nothing to do with youth, vets, etc. It is nothing more than whining because someone might get a buck before they have the chance.

However to humor you...

"If its about the getting the chance then it wouldn't matter if it was does only correct?"
My daughter has commented several times about how "does taste better anyway" so no it wouldn't matter.

"Second question what would the drop of youth hunters be if it was does only?"
If you figure out a way to answer this _what if_ question let me know. The only way to come even close to any kind of scientific approach would be to quantify how many additional licenses are sold each year since the season started.

"Third question would a dnr class be a good idea where a youth needs to shoot the weapon they will use during the youth season prior to receiving their youth license?"
I don't have a problem with this idea, but think it is a little narrow-minded. I shoot with every person I take into the woods and if they can't hit the mark I don't take them until it is ready. Question back to you is... why does this only apply to youth? Is someone magically able to hit the bullseye after their 18th birthday? If you want to put this rule into affect fine, but stick with all the ideals about "fair" that the anti-youth-hunt people seem to use as a battle cry. If you want to test people do it. Whether it be youth or adults test everybody before they can buy a tag. That includes guys who have hunted in the past, but have never had to qualify. I've heard way too many horror stories around the coffee pot at work and seen to much of folks (almost all adults) who should not be allowed in the woods because they don't respect it and don't take the time to practice with the tool they intend to use.


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## LCO (Jun 26, 2015)

jafurnier said:


> It's easier...hard to deny that.


Why is it easier? 
Easier to do what? Kill a deer? Kill a buck? Kill a mature buck? 

Why are most big bucks killed in early November? Could it be its easier? 

Should hunting only be done when it's hard?


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## Dynrat (Jun 13, 2003)

au5952 said:


> This might be a reason why some hunters are against the youth hunt..
> 
> http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/...er-guidelines-278297501.html?device=phone&c=y


Do me a favor. Show me evidence of ANY hunting season that doesn't have at least one low-life poacher take some kind of advantage. If that is your reasoning behind ending the youth hunt then we need to end archery season, rifle season, muzzleloader, etc.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

Most all of the arguments against the youth hunt are strawman arguments. The are intended to obfuscate the anti-youth hunters true agenda.

If our youth hunt were scheduled in early January after all the other seasons, do you think that there would be such opposition to it? I doubt it. These people are whining because somebody might shoot "their buck" before they do. They want to compete on a level playing field with children and disabled veterans.

It takes a special kind of grown man to complain about the opportunities that our state extends to children and disabled veterans.


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## DXT Deer Slayer (Nov 14, 2009)

red wolf said:


> Look at iowa Dakota hunting population license sales..
> 
> Most of the people forget mi is still one of the highest in deer hunter numbers.
> 
> ...


A man of reason!

Glad to find one in the Whitetail forum!


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

LCO said:


> Why is it easier?
> Easier to do what? Kill a deer? Kill a buck? Kill a mature buck?
> 
> Why are most big bucks killed in early November? Could it be its easier?
> ...


Do you honestly think it is NOT easier to do all of the above? Really? REALLY??? Come on..don't try and deny this one. Some arguments are silly to try and refute. Just look at the pics LCO.

Should hunting be done when it is hard. For me...when it is legal..youth included. But the beef others have about having it available for everyone at the same time. 100% legit argument.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

John Singer said:


> Most all of the arguments against the youth hunt are strawman arguments. The are intended to obfuscate the anti-youth hunters true agenda.
> 
> If our youth hunt were scheduled in early January after all the other seasons, do you think that there would be such opposition to it? I doubt it. These people are whining because somebody might shoot "their buck" before they do. They want to compete on a level playing field with children and disabled veterans.
> 
> It takes a special kind of grown man to complain about the opportunities that our state extends to children and disabled veterans.


How do you know their agenda again??? I like people who's argument for or against something is "what they KNOW others are thinking".


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> LOL. Some times I feel like I've entered an alternative universe with some of the theories I encounter on here.
> 
> There's not one single thing that was easier about our Saturday night hunt of last week as compared to the hunt we're hoping to have on Saturday the 3rd. I'm highly entertained by the thought that anyone would claim otherwise.


I'll state flatly..to both you and LCO...if you think it is the same level of difficulty as the regular season you are wrong. If you gave me a choice, I would buck hunt with a rifle in mid-Sep. In fact last Sunday I could have smoked the nice ten behind my house.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> I suspect those who hunt in areas where there aren't any antlerless tags due to low deer numbers would probably be less than enthusiastic about a doe only youth hunt.


Some may argue...go hunt somewhere where there are doe tags! Shoot maybe we should hold youth season in the city...since people might objecting having to drive someplace to hunt.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

I respect your opinion red wolf. Some good pics too of the youths you have mentored. I think you make some good points. I love to bow hunt. My two sons are 18 and 22. I took both of them youth hunting and both harvested a buck on the youth hunt. Neither of them want anything to do with hunting now. My best memories hunting are my kids taking there first deer. I let a kid and his dad hunt the youth season on my property now because I like making that opportunity available to a kid and his dad. I personally wouldn't want to be a part of taking those opportunities away from kids. But I am on the fence about the youth season and could take it or leave it. I'm not sure what the kids can take away from the youth hunt that will make them a better hunter because of how easy it is to kill deer during that time. I think because of how easy it is that it can discourage them once they have to start hunting like the rest of us and the hunting becomes tougher. I guess it helps them get a deer or two under there belt. The fact that the youth hunt is needed for recruitment to hunting is the disturbing part for me. It didn't work for my kids. I saw it as an opportunity to get my kids away from the electronics and get them hooked on hunting. I'm definitely not a youth hunt anti. I have a very good buck running my property this year and I was really hoping to get a call that the youth hunter got him. He had a good chance because the buck has been in my clover on my cams an hour or so before dark 3 to 4 times per week. Unfortunately he never seen him. But I would have loved to be a part of that tracking job and memories a buck of that caliber would have created.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

jafurnier said:


> I'll state flatly..to both you and LCO...if you think it is the same level of difficulty as the regular season you are wrong. If you gave me a choice, I would buck hunt with a rifle in mid-Sep. In fact last Sunday I could have smoked the nice ten behind my house.


The youth hunt is absolutely 100% easier. The deer had have zero hunting pressure, summer patterns and lots of daylight movement. The opening week of bow season used to be that way before the early seasons were added. I notice on my trail cams that the percentage of daytime pics goes way down once the youth hunt happens. As stated in my prior post I have experienced the youth hunt with both of my kids and way more deer sightings than any other time of the season and way easier to kill because the deer haven't been pressured and there not skittish at all. They basically just act natural like they have done all summer. Definitely way easier... Maybe not for a 4/5/6 year old but a lot easier. The age restriction deal is a whole different argument. I think there should definitely be an age restriction in place. You can go hunt with your parent at any age and watch and learn. But to be behind the trigger at some of the ages I hear about is alarming to me.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

jafurnier said:


> Some may argue...go hunt somewhere where there are doe tags! Shoot maybe we should hold youth season in the city...since people might objecting having to drive someplace to hunt.


About 90% of the UP is closed to antlerless hunting in all seasons. Your plan will work great for them.

After looking at a number more of your posts, I have concluded I'm not psychologically equipped to deal with you any further. A man's gotta know his limitations, and one of my limitations is I can only suffer absurdity for so long.

Carry on.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

jafurnier said:


> f) It is perfectly OK for someone to be upset/disappointed, etc when a buck they grow (yes people can grow a buck and it can cost lots of money and countless hours) get's whacked by someone who did nothing but sit on a beanfield and pull a trigger. I don't think they are being selfish.


A) This is not perfectly okay. 

B) They are being extremely selfish. 

Let's get rid of the free fishing weekend, too. I don't want some freeloader catching my fish. Pay up like the rest of us!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

triplelunger said:


> A) This is not perfectly okay.
> 
> B) They are being extremely selfish.
> 
> ...


Why is it unacceptable to be disappointed??? What is your reasoning??? I am curious...

EXTREMELY selfish huh? Some guy passes a deer 3 yrs...and someones 8 yr old kids is walked out to a bean field with his dad in Sep...and dumps it. Are you one of those people who would not feel a shred of disappointment? If so...so are a great human being.

BTW...pick a better example..free fishing weekend is open to everyone. Me. You. Everyone. Access is not restricted.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> About 90% of the UP is closed to antlerless hunting in all seasons. Your plan will work great for them.
> 
> After looking at a number more of your posts, I have concluded I'm not psychologically equipped to deal with you any further. A man's gotta know his limitations, and one of my limitations is I can only suffer absurdity for so long.
> 
> Carry on.


Taking your toys and going home?

What is the point of my post? Show me you you understand my beef...


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## tdduckman (Jan 17, 2001)

jafurnier said:


> Why is it unacceptable to be disappointed??? What is your reasoning??? I am curious...
> 
> EXTREMELY selfish huh? Some guy passes a deer 3 yrs...and someones 8 yr old kids is walked out to a bean field with his dad in Sep...and dumps it. Are you one of those people who would not feel a shred of disappointment? If so...so are a great human being.
> 
> BTW...pick a better example..free fishing weekend is open to everyone. Me. You. Everyone. Access is not restricted.


I would be disappointed for 2 seconds and then excited for the 8 year old, and his family. I would share the photos I had of the buck with them. I would welcome the young man or women into the family of hunters.

I would start my search for the next buck or doe I will take to enjoy the season with my family and I would not dwell on that buck again. I also would not vent my irrational frustration on an Internet bulletin board where I would look like an a$$


TD


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

tdduckman said:


> I would be disappointed for 2 seconds and then excited for the 8 year old, and his family. I would share the photos I had of the buck with them. I would welcome the young man or women into the family of hunters.
> 
> I would start my search for the next buck or doe I will take to enjoy the season with my family and I would not dwell on that buck again. I also would not vent my irrational frustration on an Internet bulletin board where I would look like an a$$
> 
> ...


BTW...you realize I lose no sleep over youth season right? It is comments like your last one that started my responses.

Just curious. Do you spend a lot of time and money on you land "growing" nice deer?

Totaling up the cost of equipment and fertilizer, I have spent EASY over $50,000 since 2006 trying to grow bigger bucks. The time investment is in the thousands of hours. I have also invested time trying to educate neighbors on the benefits of managing the herd..not just consuming it. Before I started managing...there were nothing but some small bucks running around the section. I will state unashamedly...my time and money is why things have improved. And...me personally...I really don't hunt here. I have built this for my own enjoyment but for the most part I leave the harvest to others. This being said, for the various people on here, to call someone "selfish" or an "ass" for being disappointed because someone shoots a nice buck under special conditions is what is unacceptable. I could see where someone would invest what I have and object to things about the youth hunt...and do so with good conscience. I don't have major objections...but I at least appreciate why some others do.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

tdduckman said:


> I would be disappointed for 2 seconds and then excited for the 8 year old, and his family. I would share the photos I had of the buck with them. I would welcome the young man or women into the family of hunters.
> 
> I would start my search for the next buck or doe I will take to enjoy the season with my family and I would not dwell on that buck again. I also would not vent my irrational frustration on an Internet bulletin board where I would look like an a$$
> 
> ...


BTW...you realize I lose no sleep over youth season right? It is comments like your last one that started my responses.

Just curious. Do you spend a lot of time and money on you land "growing" nice deer?

Totaling up the cost of equipment and fertilizer, I have spent EASY over $50,000 since 2006 trying to grow bigger bucks. The time investment is in the thousands of hours. I have also invested time trying to educate neighbors on the benefits of managing the herd..not just consuming it. Before I started managing...there were nothing but some small bucks running around the section. I will state unashamedly...my time and money is why things have improved. And...me personally...I really don't hunt here. Yes...I have built this for my own enjoyment (seeing the habitat change...older bucks hanging around, etc.) but for the most part I leave the harvest to others. This being said, for the various people on here, to call someone "selfish" or an "ass" for being disappointed because someone shoots a nice buck under special conditions is what is unacceptable. I could see where someone would invest what I have and object to things about the youth hunt...and do so with good conscience. I don't have major objections...but I at least appreciate why some others do.


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## Smokin-the-eyes (Jan 4, 2014)

jafurnier said:


> Some would argue the most important thing you can do for a kid is to be taught to hunt. Not pull a trigger and be done. You may not intend this but your response sort of sounds like...to be proud you must kill a deer.


Where does it state i never taught my kid how to hunt just like almost every father i have been molding him into the hunter and young man that he is today he picked his spots cleared shooting lanes picked what kind of bait he wanted to use or not use set cameras checked pics about the only thing he didnt do on his own was set the ladder stand in his tree (but he helped) 
not to mention the seven years of prep work before that learning woodsman-ship goin to 3-d archery shoots sitting in blinds with me and his grandpa for hours at a time and never complaining learning how to do everything on his own for himself and the older guys in camp that we bait and builds blinds for shoot at twelve years old he has more of a understanding of how to put meat in the freezer than most people i know this year he volunteered to help with a hunter safety class teaching archery another proud moment for me that stemmed from hunting and he did that all on his own never even asked if it would be ok he just told me
As for you antis you guys really need to just lighten up these are kids we are talking about here if u went back in time to your youth would u yourself be against this youth hunt i highly doubt it u prob couldnt sleep the night before u would be so excited to go hunting with your dad grandpa family freind etc. or would u say no this hunt is to easy mab we should just wait till all the other hunters come out and start slinging arrows and bullets all around the country side its a two day hunt so just let it go and let the kids be happy and let them make there mentors proud wether they shoot a deer or not again these are kids we r talking here kids did i mention these r kids but really there kids and the future of our hunting beholders of our hunting traditions future stewards of our lands and the great sport of hunting without them there is no future for hunting oh ya did i mention they are kids u know little tiny adults


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## BigWoods Bob (Mar 15, 2007)

jafurnier said:


> Why is it unacceptable to be disappointed??? What is your reasoning??? I am curious...
> 
> EXTREMELY selfish huh? Some guy passes a deer 3 yrs...and someones 8 yr old kids is walked out to a bean field with his dad in Sep...and dumps it. Are you one of those people who would not feel a shred of disappointment? If so...so are a great human being.
> 
> BTW...pick a better example..free fishing weekend is open to everyone. Me. You. Everyone. Access is not restricted.


I used to feel this way....many years ago, before I had kids. I used to get all worked up and worried someone on an adjacent property would get the deer I had been passing up each year, before I got a chance. I used to have an 8pt. or better rule for anyone who hunted my property. I used to not allow any guests to hunt on the property, unless they agreed to follow "My rules for scent control and pressure on the property ". (which effectively eliminated some of my "older" friends and family from hunting with me, as they got absolutely NO enjoyment out of going through the crazy intense routines for scent control and stand access that I felt was necessary to not "burn out" my property). For me, however...over time all this did was make hunting less and less fun. About 7-8 years ago, I decided to change things...at least for me...to make hunting more fun. I now take my own kids AND 3-4 other kids/families out every year during the youth season-- knowing full well that it will negatively impact my "mature buck " sightings, because I've seen it happen year over year on trail cam pics-- But you know what ? For me...that's OK...my kids have a blast tromping around through the woods with their buddies, and someone usually manages to kill a deer or two (sometimes even a mature buck I've been watching on camera for a year or two). I work hard at habitat management, and will for the rest of my days be a "mature buck only" hunter, but I'll be honest....I'm enjoying hunting WAY more these days---even if the "kids" hunting makes it a bit more difficult for me to get "my" buck. To each his own, but for me, at this point in life --I wouldn't have it any other way!


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## tdduckman (Jan 17, 2001)

jafurnier said:


> BTW...you realize I lose no sleep over youth season right? It is comments like your last one that started my responses.
> 
> Just curious. Do you spend a lot of time and money on you land "growing" nice deer?
> 
> Totaling up the cost of equipment and fertilizer, I have spent EASY over $50,000 since 2006 trying to grow bigger bucks. The time investment is in the thousands of hours. I have also invested time trying to educate neighbors on the benefits of managing the herd..not just consuming it. Before I started managing...there were nothing but some small bucks running around the section. I will state unashamedly...my time and money is why things have improved. And...me personally...I really don't hunt here. Yes...I have built this for my own enjoyment (seeing the habitat change...older bucks hanging around, etc.) but for the most part I leave the harvest to others. This being said, for the various people on here, to call someone "selfish" or an "ass" for being disappointed because someone shoots a nice buck under special conditions is what is unacceptable. I could see where someone would invest what I have and object to things about the youth hunt...and do so with good conscience. I don't have major objections...but I at least appreciate why some others do.




Yup I own property and a tractor and put in food plots, habitat and work with DU, PF and the conservation district to improve my ground.

But I do not get caught up in the "my" deer issue just because I do those things. I do them cause it's fun and challenging.

My neighbors son shot a 10 point during youth season I thought it was great and haven't looked back.

Just cause you spend a few thousand a year on your ground does not give ownership of the deer. If you want full control buy more ground and put up a 10 foot fence, that will keep your deer away from those youth hunters 

TD


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## Leelanauman (May 16, 2008)

7 years old is too young to kill a deer. At that age you don't even comprehend what you've done. It's not hunting either. You tell me a 7 year old is putting time in scouting, selecting a stand site, patterning deer, etc. Its all about the adults at that age. It should start at 12 years old and go to 14...that's it. The pics I see are disturbing. More parents holding the deer in the pics with kids not even wanting to touch the animal they just shot. When you think about it, for many people, the youth hunt has absolutely nothing to do with youth. It's kind of sad.


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## QuackerWhacker (Oct 9, 2007)

Leelanauman said:


> 7 years old is too young to kill a deer. At that age you don't even comprehend what you've done. It's not hunting either. You tell me a 7 year old is putting time in scouting, selecting a stand site, patterning deer, etc. Its all about the adults at that age. It should start at 12 years old and go to 14...that's it. The pics I see are disturbing. More parents holding the deer in the pics with kids not even wanting to touch the animal they just shot. When you think about it, for many people, the youth hunt has absolutely nothing to do with youth. It's kind of sad.


What's sad is that adults get all worked up about nonsense. Maybe the kids don't do as much work as we do in preparation. THEY'RE KIDS!!!!! Just getting them out, involved, and excited to go is hopefully the result of the youth hunts. Better in the field than in front of a TV.


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## Leelanauman (May 16, 2008)

Yeah, never to young to take a kid in the woods and teach them what hunting is. Is that what goes on or do most kids still sit inside and play video games until it's time to go kill something? I bet most kids are playing some sort of video game while they hunt.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Leelanauman said:


> 7 years old is too young to kill a deer. At that age you don't even comprehend what you've done. It's not hunting either. You tell me a 7 year old is putting time in scouting, selecting a stand site, patterning deer, etc. Its all about the adults at that age. It should start at 12 years old and go to 14...that's it. The pics I see are disturbing. More parents holding the deer in the pics with kids not even wanting to touch the animal they just shot. When you think about it, for many people, the youth hunt has absolutely nothing to do with youth. It's kind of sad.


Please post some of these "disturbing" pictures. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Leelanauman (May 16, 2008)

Go look for them yourself. I'm not going to post a picture of somebody else on the internet because some dweeb asked me to.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Leelanauman said:


> Go look for them yourself. I'm not going to post a picture of somebody else on the internet because some dweeb asked me to.


I did. I couldn't find any. 
But then again... I'm just a dweeb. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## LCO (Jun 26, 2015)

jafurnier said:


> Do you honestly think it is NOT easier to do all of the above? Really? REALLY??? Come on..don't try and deny this one. Some arguments are silly to try and refute. Just look at the pics LCO.
> 
> Should hunting be done when it is hard. For me...when it is legal..youth included. But the beef others have about having it available for everyone at the same time. 100% legit argument.


I honestly think the difficulty of killing a deer, a buck or a mature buck is no different on October 1 as it is 10 days prior. 
I do think the ability to use a gun makes it easier, just as I think it is easier to kill the above on November 15 compared to 10 days prior. 

IMO the biggest thing effecting the October opener is the last two weeks of September is when a lot of hunters are out hanging stands or scouting. 
I think that plays into it more than small game hunters or youth hunters.


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

Look at this thread. Look at these kids with their parents holding their deer for them while they look completely bored and can't wait to get back to their phones. Very disturbing.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/youth-hunt-pics-2015.548225/


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## billmitch (Dec 21, 2009)

jafurnier said:


> It become more difficult because you cannot shoot 200 yds on Oct 1 and get a deer. You also don't have the pressure which starts the annual...deer go find a cave process. It is easier.


So if we eliminate the youth hunt, that will ale it easier to kill a buck on October first. Then that's not fair to the gun guys. You just showed your true colors


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## LCO (Jun 26, 2015)

Guys the youth hunt will not effect you if you do not allow it on your property. 
It is no different than the tactic of waiting until late October to hunt. 
You let the hunting pressure around your property push deer to you. 
If you get upset a kid killed a buck you passed for 3 years, well you are looking at that wrong. 
What would be more upsetting? You pass yearlings to get them to 2.5. You want your neighbors to do the same. You pass 2.5's because you target 3.5's. 
So your goal is to first protect yearlings and kill 3.5+.
So the neighbor kid shot a buck that's 3.5. That's great isn't that what we want. 
Or you pass the 1.5 old and the same kid kills it 10 minutes later in November.

If I had a choice in other hunters decisions on what to shoot and not shoot, I would choose older bucks and would much rather a kid kill an older buck over a younger one even if it was a buck I passed on for 3 years hoping to kill him at 4.5.
Yes I would be disappointed but in the big picture the mission was accomplished.


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## billmitch (Dec 21, 2009)

jafurnier said:


> Why is it unacceptable to be disappointed??? What is your reasoning??? I am curious...
> 
> EXTREMELY selfish huh? Some guy passes a deer 3 yrs...and someones 8 yr old kids is walked out to a bean field with his dad in Sep...and dumps it. Are you one of those people who would not feel a shred of disappointment? If so...so are a great human being.
> 
> BTW...pick a better example..free fishing weekend is open to everyone. Me. You. Everyone. Access is not restricted.


Simply pathetic


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## billmitch (Dec 21, 2009)

jafurnier said:


> BTW...you realize I lose no sleep over youth season right? It is comments like your last one that started my responses.
> 
> Just curious. Do you spend a lot of time and money on you land "growing" nice deer?
> 
> Totaling up the cost of equipment and fertilizer, I have spent EASY over $50,000 since 2006 trying to grow bigger bucks. The time investment is in the thousands of hours. I have also invested time trying to educate neighbors on the benefits of managing the herd..not just consuming it. Before I started managing...there were nothing but some small bucks running around the section. I will state unashamedly...my time and money is why things have improved. And...me personally...I really don't hunt here. I have built this for my own enjoyment but for the most part I leave the harvest to others. This being said, for the various people on here, to call someone "selfish" or an "ass" for being disappointed because someone shoots a nice buck under special conditions is what is unacceptable. I could see where someone would invest what I have and object to things about the youth hunt...and do so with good conscience. I don't have major objections...but I at least appreciate why some others do.


Your financial investment doesn't entitle you to shoot big bucks any more then the rest of us.


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## Leelanauman (May 16, 2008)

Nobody owns the deer...the deer is not yours. I don't buy into that type of thinking. What I don't agree with is the age of the youth hunt starting at 7 and going to 16. 7 is too young and at 16 you should be hunting with the big boys.


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## billmitch (Dec 21, 2009)

i think I'm some cases 7 years old is in fact too young. I also know other instances where it was not.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

LCO said:


> Guys the youth hunt will not effect you if you do not allow it on your property.
> It is no different than the tactic of waiting until late October to hunt.
> You let the hunting pressure around your property push deer to you.
> If you get upset a kid killed a buck you passed for 3 years, well you are looking at that wrong.
> ...


Your absolutely right! I absolutely 100% want my neighbors to kill mature bucks and let all the young ones grow. I don't care who is hunting or which season it is in and I am happy for them. I wish everyone around me targeted 4yrs and older but I know that's asking a lot in Michigan. In Iowa that's not beyond reality but here it is. Because in Iowa a 130"/140" is a young deer and most pass. It's a lot easier when you and your neighbors are working together towards the same goals. Then having the frustration of feeling like your putting up all the money and work and the neighbors are working against you.


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## QuackerWhacker (Oct 9, 2007)

And the lock is coming in 3,2,....


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Is it possible for a man to be any more emotionally needy and psychologically soft than when he’s worrying about what the neighbor girl shoots? You would think if a man were such a delicate flower he would at least keep it to himself rather than broadcast his weakness for all to observe.

The card carrying male members of the Squat to Pee Society never cease to amaze.


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

Leelanauman said:


> Nobody owns the deer...the deer is not yours. I don't buy into that type of thinking. What I don't agree with is the age of the youth hunt starting at 7 and going to 16. 7 is too young and at 16 you should be hunting with the big boys.


I think that it's a case by case basis on when they're ready to start. Not all kids are ready at 7 but some most definitely are. My daughter will be 7 next year and wants to do the youth hunt next year, but It'll only happen if I think she's ready. I actually think it might take another season or two before that happens, but we'll see how it all progress'. As for being 16 and playing with the big boys, well then 16 year olds should be able to sit in a stand without someone having to be within 100 yards or whatever it is. Unless that has changed in the last 15 years. I got that ticket when I was 16, or I guess I should say my cousin did. It wasn't like I wasn't safe or didn't know what I was doing either. I've seen plenty of adults that shouldn't be allowed to walk around with knives.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Huntmich said:


> I think that it's a case by case basis on when they're ready to start. Not all kids are ready at 7 but some most definitely are. My daughter will be 7 next year and wants to do the youth hunt next year, but It'll only happen if I think she's ready. .


There are thousands of decisions that rightly fall under the authority of a parent. What is remarkable is that anyone would care at what age the neighbor kid hunts or fishes or learns to ride a bike or tries out for the football team or anything else for that matter.

The "mother hens" who actually spend time thinking about when other people should take their children hunting are a fascination to me. The lamenting and hand wringing is evidence of such a weak psychological makeup. Before I frequented this forum it never would have occurred to me that some adult males are such frail beings. Truly remarkable.


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## hawgeye (Mar 3, 2011)

jafurnier said:


> BTW...you realize I lose no sleep over youth season right? It is comments like your last one that started my responses.
> 
> Just curious. Do you spend a lot of time and money on you land "growing" nice deer?
> 
> Totaling up the cost of equipment and fertilizer, I have spent EASY over $50,000 since 2006 trying to grow bigger bucks. The time investment is in the thousands of hours. I have also invested time trying to educate neighbors on the benefits of managing the herd..not just consuming it. Before I started managing...there were nothing but some small bucks running around the section. I will state unashamedly...my time and money is why things have improved. And...me personally...I really don't hunt here. I have built this for my own enjoyment but for the most part I leave the harvest to others. This being said, for the various people on here, to call someone "selfish" or an "ass" for being disappointed because someone shoots a nice buck under special conditions is what is unacceptable. I could see where someone would invest what I have and object to things about the youth hunt...and do so with good conscience. I don't have major objections...but I at least appreciate why some others do.


You make it sound like they aren't good enough to shoot "your" deer. If you want to control a herd build a pen. Free range is free range, its not their problem you spent $50,000 and thousands of hours on your property. I would feel much better kniwing a trophy went to my neighbor kid than a d-bag poacher.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

hawgeye said:


> You make it sound like they aren't good enough to shoot "your" deer. If you want to control a herd build a pen. Free range is free range, its not their problem you spent $50,000 and thousands of hours on your property. I would feel much better kniwing a trophy went to my neighbor kid than a d-bag poacher.


Where did I say they were my deer? Hmmm.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> There are thousands of decisions that rightly fall under the authority of a parent. What is remarkable is that anyone would care at what age the neighbor kid hunts or fishes or learns to ride a bike or tries out for the football team or anything else for that matter.
> 
> The "mother hens" who actually spend time thinking about when other people should take their children hunting are a fascination to me. The lamenting and hand wringing is evidence of such a weak psychological makeup. Before I frequented this forum it never would have occurred to me that some adult males are such frail beings. Truly remarkable.


???


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

November Sunrise said:


> Is it possible for a man to be any more emotionally needy and psychologically soft than when he’s worrying about what the neighbor girl shoots? You would think if a man were such a delicate flower he would at least keep it to himself rather than broadcast his weakness for all to observe.
> 
> The card carrying male members of the Squat to Pee Society never cease to amaze.


Are you talking bout me? The guy who personally doesn't care?

Hey moderator...you reading???


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

billmitch said:


> Your financial investment doesn't entitle you to shoot big bucks any more then the rest of us.


Who feels entitled? Not me. If I did I would hunt them. I basically don't! You catch that part???

I suspect many others who work hard like me and invest...don't feel entitled. They just want everyone to ply by the same rules.


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## jafurnier (Jun 7, 2008)

billmitch said:


> Your financial investment doesn't entitle you to shoot big bucks any more then the rest of us.


Who feels entitled? Not me. If I did I would hunt them. I basically don't! You catch that part???

I suspect many others who work hard like me and invest...don't feel entitled. They just want everyone to ply by the same rules.


billmitch said:


> Simply pathetic


Am I pathetic for...

a) Taking kids youth hunting. This year, I was soooooooooo bummed when this kids I was taking made other plans.
b) Investing in habitat and growing nicer bucks. Neighbor to the est hs shot two GREAT bucks because we have them. Good for him!
c) Letting others hunt my land because I rarely do. I have owned this place since 2006. If you dd up how much I have hunted it...the number of "people days" last year alone for my guests would exceed my own hours since I bought the place.
d) Passing bucks so they or my neighbors can get them. The neighbor asked me to hunt his stand on his place while he is gone the first two week in Oct. There is real nice ten running between our places. I said I might...but I won't shoot that deer. There is beautiful pair of 8 pts and one weird looking deer...ll older...I might...maybe...shoot if given chance??? Maybe???
e) Buying special kids sized youth rifle and loaning it out every year since I bought it for others to take their kids?
f) Thinking there people who disagree with me about the youth hunt (i.e. they want it eliminated) might have legitimate points of view even if I do not agree with them (I can live with it)?

So which one makes me pathetic? November...you are into making attacks personal...Why don't you vote too.

Do you know why I won't let this go? Unlike all the others who ran away from this site because of all the name callers on here or the mind readers who sure know what people they never met think. Me...I won't blink.


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## spikekilla (Jan 6, 2009)

jafurnier said:


> Are you talking bout me? The guy who personally doesn't care?
> 
> Hey moderator...you reading???


hahahahaha. He's snitching...


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

Thursday is the opener of the Archery Deer Season. Hopefully some of this animosity over the youth hunt will be put aside. 

The Youth and Liberty Hunts work as intended. They give children and disabled access to our deer herd prior to open seasons for the rest of us.

Whether you agree with this or not, I wish all of you a safe, enjoyable, and successful season.


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## I'llbeoutside (Feb 2, 2003)

jafurnier said:


> Are you talking bout me? The guy who personally doesn't care?
> 
> Hey moderator...you reading???


He's telling the teacher on you. Just like a little kid would do. There's something very funny about that.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

jafurnier said:


> Do you honestly think it is NOT easier to do all of the abovde? Really? REALLY??? Come on..don't try and deny this one. jjk arguments are silly to try and refute. Just look at the pics LCO.
> 
> Should hunting be done when it is hard. For me...when it is legal..youth included. But the beef others f about having it available for everyone at the same time. 100% legit argument.



If it is so much easier why are the success rates the same as rifle and bow? Look through the last 6-7 years of deer reports. There was only one season where youths had a substantial success rate increase over bow and gun hunters and that year they did 7-8% better. There were also yrs it was lower. Two lousy days of weather can really scree up their chances.....personally I think it should be longer for that reason alone.

We kill about a half million deer a yr in this state. The youth hunt harvests something like 5-7000 bucks and does combined. Just because you see a few nice ones on social media your perception is very skewed. The youth hunt harvests about 2.1% of the deer taken each year. The numbers don't lie.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

John Singer said:


> Thursday is the opener of the Archery Deer Season. Hopefully some of this animosity over the youth hunt will be put aside.
> 
> The Youth and Liberty Hunts work as intended. They give children and disabled access to our deer herd prior to open seasons for the rest of us.
> 
> Whether you agree with this or not, I wish all of you a safe, enjoyable, and successful season.


John I won't be able to hunt until Saturday..Don't be shooting my buck Thursday!...lol


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

Guys im not even going to read all the post.
We have bigger things to worry about than the youth and liberty hunt.
In the end does it matter?
You have a better chance of a car taking out that big buck than a youth.
Grow up and enjoy the world around ya.


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## bigbuck (Mar 17, 2001)

johnhunter247 said:


> The youth hunt is absolutely 100% easier. The deer had have zero hunting pressure, summer patterns and lots of daylight movement. The opening week of bow season used to be that way before the early seasons were added. I notice on my trail cams that the percentage of daytime pics goes way down once the youth hunt happens. As stated in my prior post I have experienced the youth hunt with both of my kids and way more deer sightings than any other time of the season and way easier to kill because the deer haven't been pressured and there not skittish at all. They basically just act natural like they have done all summer. Definitely way easier... Maybe not for a 4/5/6 year old but a lot easier. The age restriction deal is a whole different argument. I think there should definitely be an age restriction in place. You can go hunt with your parent at any age and watch and learn. But to be behind the trigger at some of the ages I hear about is alarming to me.


 I agree with this post, no question it is easier. There should be an age restriction, yes some kids are ready sooner than others but some are pushed out there before they are ready and don't have a full understanding on what they are doing. There setting on Dad's lap while he is helping them hold the gun and they are pulling the trigger. Yes many parents can recognize when a kid is ready but some can't, that is why I am for an age limit. Some people are ready to to drive at 12 but the state won't issue a license until your 16. My kids participated and it was a fun, so I'm not against it but think it should be modified.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

This early season is crazy.. i love to see kids hunt and be successful.. and no again im not calling any bucks mine or in no way am i selfish.. any deer buck doe big or small is a trophy. To take a life and understand what just happend any why is what we need to teach..

The respect for the outdoors animals and conservation.. to many kids only know dad wants to take me out to his spot so i can kill a deer.. most of the time any hunter myself included have cameras and are watching deer.. the goal would be to set my kid up on the best deer in the best spot.. that much is obvious i would do the same.. 

In the end the instant success is not contributing to the root goal. Our sport os not disposable like a game. Hunting is a way of life and respect.. 

To understand this kids need time to learn.. more then a weekend.. and we al understand that so the early weekend is not necessary to the root goal.. 

No that said it is hard for anyone with kids to step back and see the light.. they understand it is easy big deer are in the open snd i want my kid to kill that thing.. again that is living vicariously through your kids eyes.. 

Small game is open cut the kids teath doing something in season in progression.. no need to race to the finish line at 7 years old..


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## hawgeye (Mar 3, 2011)

red wolf said:


> This early season is crazy.. i love to see kids hunt and be successful.. and no again im not calling any bucks mine or in no way am i selfish.. any deer buck doe big or small is a trophy. To take a life and understand what just happend any why is what we need to teach..
> 
> The respect for the outdoors animals and conservation.. to many kids only know dad wants to take me out to his spot so i can kill a deer.. most of the time any hunter myself included have cameras and are watching deer.. the goal would be to set my kid up on the best deer in the best spot.. that much is obvious i would do the same..
> 
> ...


How about this? What people do legally on their private property is none of your business? Who are you to tell me how to raise my family? Who are you to tell me how I should teach my family to hunt?


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## Dynrat (Jun 13, 2003)

jafurnier said:


> Why is it unacceptable to be disappointed??? What is your reasoning??? I am curious...
> 
> EXTREMELY selfish huh? Some guy passes a deer 3 yrs...and someones 8 yr old kids is walked out to a bean field with his dad in Sep...and dumps it. Are you one of those people who would not feel a shred of disappointment? If so...so are a great human being.
> 
> BTW...pick a better example..free fishing weekend is open to everyone. Me. You. Everyone. Access is not restricted.


Okay jafurnier. If this is about being fair as far as hunt time and access then we can just do it this way. Every hunter regardless of weapon choice, hunt area, etc. will have hunting access during the same time. October 1st - December 31st every person regardless of age or demographic can hunt with whatever weapon they choose. After all, it's only fair.

You know my kids stopped making the ridiculous "It's not fair" arguments at about age 12.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

red wolf said:


> This early season is crazy.. i love to see kids hunt and be successful.. and no again im not calling any bucks mine or in no way am i selfish.. any deer buck doe big or small is a trophy. To take a life and understand what just happend any why is what we need to teach..
> 
> The respect for the outdoors animals and conservation.. to many kids only know dad wants to take me out to his spot so i can kill a deer.. most of the time any hunter myself included have cameras and are watching deer.. the goal would be to set my kid up on the best deer in the best spot.. that much is obvious i would do the same..
> 
> ...



Red wolf I have read your posts over and over about how easy it is to kill a deer in the youth hunt. My experiences don't reflect that. I have a son that is 18 now. And a son that is 12 now. My 18 yr old hunted every year he was eligible 12-16. My 12 yr old has hunted 3 youth hunts now. Between the two of them they managed 1 spike buck in the youth hunt. Between the two of them they have killed 4 other deer during last week of rifle and late muzzle loader season. I am not a person that has private land available to me to hunt. I am stuck hunting hap properties until they hit the age of 14 then we can hit state land. Some of the hap properties around me aren't open to gun hunting for EAS and youth season. State forest land is thick with leaves or mosquitoes and tough to gun hunt in sept once the boys hit 14.

Bottom line here is that I find it much harder during the youth season to put my kids on deer because I don't own land. The vast majority of kids that are bagging nice bucks are on private farm land or private managed land. This is land that their family owns or a friend has welcomed them to hunt. None of this really affects you.


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## Dynrat (Jun 13, 2003)

jafurnier said:


> Why is it unacceptable to be disappointed??? What is your reasoning??? I am curious...
> 
> EXTREMELY selfish huh? Some guy passes a deer 3 yrs...and someones 8 yr old kids is walked out to a bean field with his dad in Sep...and dumps it. Are you one of those people who would not feel a shred of disappointment? If so...so are a great human being.
> 
> BTW...pick a better example..free fishing weekend is open to everyone. Me. You. Everyone. Access is not restricted.


Okay jafurnier. If this is about being fair as far as hunt time and access then we can just do it this way. Every hunter regardless of weapon choice, hunt area, etc. will have hunting access during the same time. October 1st - December 31st every person regardless of age or demographic can hunt with whatever weapon they choose. After all, it's only fair.

You know my kids stopped making the ridiculous "It's not fair" arguments at about age 12.


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## Dynrat (Jun 13, 2003)

Huntmich said:


> I think that it's a case by case basis on when they're ready to start. Not all kids are ready at 7 but some most definitely are. My daughter will be 7 next year and wants to do the youth hunt next year, but It'll only happen if I think she's ready. I actually think it might take another season or two before that happens, but we'll see how it all progress'. As for being 16 and playing with the big boys, well then 16 year olds should be able to sit in a stand without someone having to be within 100 yards or whatever it is. Unless that has changed in the last 15 years. I got that ticket when I was 16, or I guess I should say my cousin did. It wasn't like I wasn't safe or didn't know what I was doing either. I've seen plenty of adults that shouldn't be allowed to walk around with knives.


I agree that the age thing makes it difficult. Classifying kids by age is nearly impossible. Look at driving... I've met some kids that were responsible enough to do it at 13, but I've also met people that aren't at 22.


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## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

Imlay city kids stacked bucks like cordwood, in my sons grade anyway. Atleast 4 of the successful hunters utilize all seasons. If your kids are not successful each year during the youth hunt or at the very least don't have an encounter with a buck, you're hunting the wrong places.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> If it is so much easier why are the success rates the same as rifle and bow? Look through the last 6-7 years of deer reports. There was only one season where youths had a substantial success rate increase over bow and gun hunters and that year they did 7-8% better. There were also yrs it was lower. Two lousy days of weather can really scree up their chances.....personally I think it should be longer for that reason alone.


Just curious what that success rate number comes from. Is it deer per hunter or is it deer per hunter per day?

If the youth rate is 30% success in 2 days and the archery/rifle season there's also 30% success but it takes a month, then I would consider the youth hunt easier.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

red wolf said:


> This early season is crazy.. i love to see kids hunt and be successful.. and no again im not calling any bucks mine or in no way am i selfish..
> 
> In the end the *instant success* is not contributing to the root goal. Our sport os not disposable like a game. Hunting is a way of life and respect..


Instant success?

All this talk about how easy it is for a kid to kill a buck in September is ridiculous. Only 1 in 5 kids killed a buck during the youth season last year.

Hopefully the other 4 out of 5 got something from the hunt besides a dead buck. 

It is so transparent that you just don't want kids getting a head start on you.

I wonder if you think it is unfair, or reduces the difficulty too much, that the pitcher's mound is closer to the batter in Little League than in the Big Leagues?


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> Just curious what that success rate number comes from. Is it deer per hunter or is it deer per hunter per day?
> 
> If the youth rate is 30% success in 2 days and the archery/rifle season there's also 30% success but it takes a month, then I would consider the youth hunt easier.



80% of the deer killed in rifle season are killed opening day so if you want to look at it that way it is far easier to hunt opening day of rifle than to hunt the youth hunt.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

You are correct the kids pitching mound is much closrer.. so why use dads 300 win mag or dads crossbow? Or dads shot gun?

Get a 35 lb bow and get inside 10 yards.
If not wait till gun season. 

If you cant buy ammo over the counter you should not have that weapon in your hand..

If gun season is 80 percent success the 1st day why do we need a youth hunt?

And if you dont get a shot durning the youth hunt try different land.. you can almost use a sling shot in sept..


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

red wolf said:


> If gun season is 80 percent success the 1st day why do we need a youth hunt?
> .


With your logic we should just ban gun hunting all together. It is too easy.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

red wolf said:


> If gun season is 80 percent success the 1st day why do we need a youth hunt?


Nobody said that gun season has an 80% success rate on the first day.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

This is a fight not worth fighting..
We know it is easier fact.
We have no proof it keep kids involved in huntang as they get older.
If the percentage of kills is so small it is not helping the ballance of concervation.
If the state has 1,000,000 hunters and the majority are not for the yourth hunt dont risk the given review at hand.
If it about the money i would personally say let us know what the addition youth license $$$ bring into the state divide it by the number of hunters and increase the price across the total.

If it is all about the kids and the overwhelming reply i get more out of watching my kid vs hunting.. make the youth tag follow the driver's license of the mentor.. that tag will be good for the mentor or the youth.. if the youth tags a deer with it the mentor and the youth are done for the year

If the youth desides to buy a normal combo tag he or she will be allowed to hunt the normal season same for the mentor


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Hunters pass on deer in muchigan?
I have no idea on that % but i would think 10% or less max.. we kill more 1.5 year old deer in this state vs many states.. you need to be under 16 to get a crack at a big 1 lol just joking smile.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> You know I was thinking exactly that on the way home today. Obviously its not part of the stats.
> 
> But then again, a large number of Michigan hunters want to fill a tag no matter what walks by. Especially those who only get to hunt a few days a year and it happens to be 11/15-11/16. So what would that ratio really be? Its hard to say. So I'm not disagreeing with you but I am not 100% convinced that makes up for the difference.
> 
> Edit: if 50% of the rifle hunters passed on deer, that makes day 1 success rate around 24%. 2 full day rate would be 45%. I think 50% could very high in Michigan. But, there is definitely merit to the idea.




I do think 50% could pass on deer opening because about 45% of the harvest for rifle is antlerless. I could believe that a majority of antlerless hunters will wait until later in the season to take doe. If you look at percentage of the total antlerless harvest that is taken during muzzleloader season it would indicate that waiting until later is a common practice. If this theory is true than a much larger percentage of the bucks are killed opening day.

My theories are hypothetical because we could never predict how many are passed on opening day. I know many hunters that pass bucks but they are the minority for sure.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

red wolf said:


> Hunters pass on deer in muchigan?
> I have no idea on that % but i would think 10% or less max.. we kill more 1.5 year old deer in this state vs many states.. you need to be under 16 to get a crack at a big 1 lol just joking smile.



You have to figure in antlerless though when you are figuring total success rate. That will put the number passed opening day much higher.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

If 45% are doe and 75% of the whole harvest are taken in the first 3 days... that's what... 34% of the total doe harvest happening in the first 3 days of the season? Could be a bit passing going on, I agree. I think a good metric would be what percentage of hunters only participate in the first 3 days. I bet its a good chunk as well I bet a lot of those guys are taking whatever they see. If they bought the tags and have 2-3 days to fill them...

I was considering total harvest in my examples. Not just bucks.

Anyway, I think I have a good picture of the probabilities of taking a deer home in the various seasons. Good luck this year!


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> If 45% are doe and 75% of the whole harvest are taken in the first 3 days... that's what... 34% of the total doe harvest happening in the first 3 days of the season? Could be a bit passing going on, I agree. I think a good metric would be what percentage of hunters only participate in the first 3 days. I bet its a good chunk as well I bet a lot of those guys are taking whatever they see. If they bought the tags and have 2-3 days to fill them...
> 
> I was considering total harvest in my examples. Not just bucks.
> 
> Anyway, I think I have a good picture of the probabilities of taking a deer home in the various seasons. Good luck this year!



I read that the mean number of days hunted per number was 6 days. I thought that was a bit high especially considering we usually only get 2 weekends. 

One odd sidenote. In my research in this topic I came across a study in 1980 that Walter p smith did on whether or not deer hunters were just lucky or skilled. It was an interesting read. It had some stats about education level of hunters and occupations. In 1980 only 7% of hunters had college degrees.


It was nice chatting with you. Good luck to you as well.


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## 2508speed (Jan 6, 2011)

DirtySteve said:


> I read that the mean number of days hunted per number was 6 days. I thought that was a bit high especially considering we usually only get 2 weekends.
> 
> One odd sidenote. In my research in this topic I came across a study in 1980 that Walter p smith did on whether or not deer hunters were just lucky or skilled. It was an interesting read. It had some stats about education level of hunters and occupations. In 1980 only 7% of hunters had college degrees.
> 
> ...


LOL!!


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

The education stat is odd... I don't think education really has anything to do with skill/luck as a hunter... they're 2 different things. But luck AND skill combine to make the most success.

7% makes perfect sense though since in 1980 about 20% of adults had a degree and about 18% of the population hunts... % with a degree has changed a lot. Not sure if % of population that hunts has. I think I found that research document. Basically says success in a given year is luck, consistent success over time shows skill, and education really has no correlation to skill or luck in hunting.

I won't consider that as a poke.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> I'm sure it varies. I actually saw a relatable stat on that from Ann arbor news, quoting a DNR representative that said license sales drop 3-5% if the opener is on a Monday or Tuesday. So in reality it is not that much... but that's sales so it may not be directly proportional. I don't see any success rate number based on day of the week. My guess is that success rate (deer per hunter) is relatively stable no matter the date.
> 
> The 2014 season started on a Saturday. The success rate of youth was 29%. Same as all of rifle season. This points back to my original conclusion that hunters are statistically more successful in youth season than rifle opener.


Firearm season success was 31.5% in 2014. 

Liberty hunt success which includes disabled hunters was 27.9%.

A 3.6 point difference equates to a 12.9% higher success rate.

As was stated previously, a much higher percentage of adult hunters are also more selective than youth hunters.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> The education stat is odd... I don't think education really has anything to do with skill/luck as a hunter... they're 2 different things. But luck AND skill combine to make the most success.
> 
> 7% makes perfect sense though since in 1980 about 20% of adults had a degree and about 18% of the population hunts... % with a degree has changed a lot. Not sure if % of population that hunts has. I think I found that research document. Basically says success in a given year is luck, consistent success over time shows skill, and education really has no correlation to skill or luck in hunting.
> 
> I won't consider that as a poke.


I wasn't intending it as a poke at all. I just thought it was a bit odd and interesting at the same time. I am an engineer as well.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> Firearm season success was 31.5% in 2014.
> 
> Liberty hunt success which includes disabled hunters was 27.9%.
> 
> ...


Bottom of page 9... tells you % rate of success. 29% liberty hunt, 29% rifle, 30% archery.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/mi_deer_harvest_survey_2014_494338_7.pdf

Find me data on selectivity lol. Lots of guys just shoot whatever they see because they have the right and just want a deer. Again, not saying you're wrong... but I don't think its nearly 50%. My guess would be 25%. And many youth are selective as well. Maybe not as many but a good chunk. I really doubt the first thing many of them saw was a decent buck.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

This thread isn't nearly as fun since the nerds took over. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

LOL!


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> Bottom of page 9... tells you % rate of success. 29% liberty hunt, 29% rifle, 30% archery.
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/mi_deer_harvest_survey_2014_494338_7.pdf
> 
> Find me data on selectivity lol. Lots of guys just shoot whatever they see because they have the right and just want a deer. Again, not saying you're wrong... but I don't think its nearly 50%. My guess would be 25%. And many youth are selective as well. Maybe not as many but a good chunk. I really doubt the first thing many of them saw was a decent buck.


Their data doesn't agree with itself - taking the hunter numbers found later in the report and the estimated deer kill reveals different percentages than what they're claiming on page 9.

There's extremely minimal evidence of youth selectivity. For adult hunters, a substantive portion of them when the DNR last surveyed that question indicated they applied some selectivity, and some in the department believe the percentages of selective hunters has continued to increase as the "let them grow" mantra has become more culturally normative.

Hunter selectivity is why the SAK model some game departments used to rely on has become increasingly questioned in recent years.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Page 6 reflects the harvest strategy of surveyed firearm hunters. 

http://michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Deer_Hunter_Opinion_Survey_2012_448233_7.pdf


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> Their data doesn't agree with itself - taking the hunter numbers found later in the report and the estimated deer kill reveals different percentages than what they're claiming on page 9.


I noticed the data didn't agree as well. If you go by the numbers and do the math its different. Does this maybe reflect the taking of more than 1 deer?

36% wanting to shoot nicer bucks is an indication of selectivity for sure. But claiming you wanting a bigger buck and actually going through with it when a decent basket 6 is in front of you on the last day of your hunt is another story. So maybe my 25% estimate was a little low but close.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> I noticed the data didn't agree as well. If you go by the numbers and do the math its different. Does this maybe reflect the taking of more than 1 deer?


I suspect that would be the explanation. Brian Frawley is the architect of the reports. I haven't seen him recently but the next time he and I cross paths I'll ask him about it.

As far as firearm season selectivity, there are both voluntary and involuntary selectivity. Voluntary selectivity is presumably accurately reflected in the survey data. 

Involuntary selectivity would include areas where antler point restrictions exist, areas where antlerless tags are limited or don't exist, circumstances where a hunter has already filled his unrestricted buck tag and is now restricted to a buck with 4 or more antler points on one side, etc.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

November Sunrise said:


> There's extremely minimal evidence of youth selectivity.



I guess it depends on your definition of being selective. My 12 yr old didn't shoot a deer during the youth hunt. He had a good chance at a doe and a couple fawns every time we went out. His tag would allow him to shoot one and he had the green light from me. If you ask him he would tell you he would have passed a spike as well but I kind of think he would have changed his mind if the opportunity was given. He shot a nice one on Nov 16th last yr so he views himself as a trophy hunter now lol.

I bet a lot of kids passed many chances.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

DirtySteve said:


> I guess it depends on your definition of being selective. My 12 yr old didn't shoot a deer during the youth hunt. He had a good chance at a doe and a couple fawns every time we went out. His tag would allow him to shoot one and he had the green light from me. If you ask him he would tell you he would have passed a spike as well but I kind of think he would have changed his mind if the opportunity was given. He shot a nice one on Nov 16th last yr so he views himself as a trophy hunter now lol.
> 
> I bet a lot of kids passed many chances.


Those experiences with the kids trying to make up their mind are fun. First ever firearm opener my oldest son hunted in Ohio was '03. He got it in mind he was going to wait for a buck. During the first two hours of daylight we had four different groups of antlerless deer come by at close range. After the fourth group came by he said, "I think I'm going to shoot the next doe that comes by." 

We hunted for several more hours that day and 3 other times that week and never saw another deer LOL.


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Do the math if we had no youth hunt..
How would the numbers change.. 
Even if you split the success of the youth 50 50 arechery and gun.. 

Or add the youth hunters to the total number of hunter for each season. Per defined weapon if you have the supporting data.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

red wolf said:


> Do the math if we had no youth hunt..
> How would the numbers change..
> Even if you split the success of the youth 50 50 arechery and gun..
> 
> Or add the youth hunters to the total number of hunter for each season. Per defined weapon if you have the supporting data.


Honestly I'd rather not. Don't think its worth it...or worth any argument.

Bottom line is both youth and rifle are very successful. I think the data shows they are roughly equally successful for the first couple days. Now if you look at pure numbers overall, youth harvest is a drop in the bucket.


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