# loose powder shooters



## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

What do you guys do after your hunt is over for the day? Do you shoot your gun or is there a way to unload your gun and catch the loose power?

I've only been ML hunting for 3 years and have used pellets since day 1. I like being able to unload my gun at the end of the day and being able to reuse the pellets. Seems like it would be cheaper than shooting it every time too.

On public land, most times your gun must be unloaded when you walk back to your truck. I dont like to shoot my gun from my blind if I dont have to and cleaning my gun after EVERY hunt seems like more hassle than it's worth.

What do you loose powder guys do?


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Removing loose powder would be messy..I leave my rifle charged for several days before clearing it.
Leave it in a cold place, so the gun doesn't sweat and ruin the charge.
Tape the muzzle with electrical tape and find something to seal the nipple or hole.
If you keep your rifle dry and cold, the charge should last many hunts.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

You can legally leave the charge in your muzzie. Just remove the primer.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

TheCrawdad said:


> You can legally leave the charge in your muzzie. Just remove the primer.


I was told by a CO that this is not the case. The gun is considered loaded as long as there is a charge in the barrel. Same rules apply at the range.


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

The CO is wrong.....


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31579--,00.html

[SIZE=-1]A percussion cap muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the percussion cap is removed. A flintlock muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the cock is left down and the pan is open. Black powder handguns must be transported as stated above. A muzzleloading firearm that has an electric ignition system is considered unloaded if the battery is removed.[/SIZE]


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

ART said:


> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31579--,00.html
> 
> [SIZE=-1]A percussion cap muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the percussion cap is removed. A flintlock muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the cock is left down and the pan is open. Black powder handguns must be transported as stated above. A muzzleloading firearm that has an electric ignition system is considered unloaded if the battery is removed.[/SIZE]


Thanks. I just found that myself. Not easy to navigate that site. :lol:

However, the top of the page says, 


At all times when carried in or on a motor vehicle, including snowmobiles: 

Rifles, shotguns, muzzleloading and other firearms must be unloaded in both barrel and magazine and enclosed in a case or carried in the trunk of a vehicle.
So according to this, a muzzleloader must be emtpy in the barrel when I drive home from public land. Does that sound right?


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## hunt-n-fool (Oct 10, 2006)

and to seal it, use a spent primer for storage over night !


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

So it seems that its ok to walk back to the truck with just the pirmer removed from the gun. But if I want to drive away, the barrel of the gun must be empty as well. Either way, I have to unload my gun at the end of the day and Id rather not shoot it if I didnt have to.

Which brings me back to square 1. What do loose powder shooters do in this situation?


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

just make sure that if you leave it loaded that you do not bring your gun into the warm house. leave it in the garage or locked in your ride etc. Bringing a cold muzzleloader into the warm house is a great way to get condensation in the bore, get your powder damp for the next hunt, start corrosion on and in the gun etc.

I load my ML when I go out and leave it loaded till the end of the season. It stays in my locked garage during that time. I use BH209 so there is alittle more wiggle room with leaving it loaded vs with regular BP or BP substitutes.

J-


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> Thanks. I just found that myself. Not easy to navigate that site. :lol:
> 
> However, the top of the page says,
> 
> ...





ART said:


> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31579--,00.html
> 
> [SIZE=-1]A percussion cap muzzleloading longarm is _*considered unloaded*_ if the percussion cap is removed. A flintlock muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the cock is left down and the pan is open. Black powder handguns must be transported as stated above. A muzzleloading firearm that has an electric ignition system is considered unloaded if the battery is removed.[/SIZE]


It's considered unloaded in the car, in the field, or on the dining room table if the cap/primer/flint/battery is removed.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

ART said:


> It's considered unloaded in the car, in the field, or on the dining room table if the cap/primer/flint/battery is removed.


I see what you're saying, but they way I read it, the law clearly states that any firearm must be unloaded in the barrel when transporting. Maybe its just the way its worded that's confusing me?

When you transport a regular firearm, you cant have ammo in the same case as the gun. It doesnt seem right that they would allow you to have ammo in the same case (or in the gun) just because its a muzzleloader.


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## kccaro (Sep 13, 2007)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> When you transport a regular firearm, you cant have ammo in the same case as the gun.


I guess I've been breaking the law all year:yikes:!!

I have a neoprene type holder on the butt of my single shot, I always keep that full (5 slugs) and an extra box in the hard shell case WITH the gun.

Guess I'll have to stop doing that....DANG IT! It's so convenient to not have to fill that thing up every time I go out to the woods....


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I see what you're saying, but they way I read it, the law clearly states that any firearm must be unloaded in the barrel when transporting. Maybe its just the way its worded that's confusing me?
> 
> When you transport a regular firearm, you cant have ammo in the same case as the gun. It doesnt seem right that they would allow you to have ammo in the same case (or in the gun) just because its a muzzleloader.


You are reading WAY TO FAR into that. Like has already been said, a percussion muzzleloader rifle is CONSIDERED UNLOADED, no matter where it is as long as the cap/primer/battery is removed. 

Go back and read ART's posts again. 

The CO was wrong. Now as far as for the range, they have their own rules for safety, and understandably.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback and I hope you guys are right. The way its worded could confuse the hell outta anybody.

This is the main reason I have yet to switch to BH 209 or any loose powder for that matter.


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

Yes, they are right. Just remove the primer & you are O.K. to walk out of the woods after hours or transport. Of course you have to case the gun like any other when in a vehicle.


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I see what you're saying, but they way I read it, the law clearly states that any firearm must be unloaded in the barrel when transporting. Maybe its just the way its worded that's confusing me?
> 
> *When you transport a regular firearm, you cant have ammo in the same case as the gun. It doesnt seem right that they would allow you to have ammo in the same case (or in the gun) just because its a muzzleloader.*



Care to tell us where you heard or read that last part I put in bold? Was that from the same CO? 

Says nothing about that in the Transporting Rules. You are not seeing the exception that is written, but yet you are seeing things that are not written??? Pay close attention under Exception below, I put it in bold red so you don't miss it. 

Also I would like you please show me where it says you cannot have ammo in the same case as the gun? It clearly states "Rifles, shotguns, muzzleloading and other firearms must be unloaded in both barrel and magazine and enclosed in a case or carried in the trunk of a vehicle." I don't see where it says you cannot have ammo in a shell holder on the stock, or in the case with the firearm.





> *Transporting Firearms, Crossbows, and Bows and Arrows*
> 
> These rules apply whether your vehicle is parked, stopped, moving or is on private or public property. Firearms must be unloaded in the barrel, and all arrows must be in a quiver when a hunter is afield outside the legal hunting hours.
> 
> ...


http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31579--,00.html


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

I think its a pretty valid question. No need to get testy about it. 



> Care to tell us where you heard or read that last part I put in bold? Was that from the same CO?


A private gun dealer informed me it was illegal to transport a gun with ammunition in the same case. I trusted his word because he obviously knew more about guns than I.

Maybe I shouldn't have believed him? Maybe its not safe to assume the MDNRE website has everthing you need to know about the law? Im sure a state trooper or a judge isn't going to care what these sites say! 

Anyone with some knowledge on this is welcome to comment....


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## 45/70fan (May 29, 2005)

Contact the DNR in Lansing and get a ruling if you have any doubts about the law. I agree with having the priming mechanism removed as being legal for transport.


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

A-under Michigan law A muzzy is unloaded when the primer is removed. 

B-Is no law in Michigan that states is illegal to transport ammo and gun in same case. The weapon just needs to be unloaded in barrel and magazine. So, unload the barrel and remove the magazine and good to go. Heck the mag can be loaded just needs to be removed.


I think I know who i confused. :16suspect


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## FowlWeather (Mar 27, 2005)

I'm pretty sure that if you do not have a CCW/CPL, and are legally transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle without a trunk, that the ammunition must be stored separately from the firearm.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Thanks again guys.

I brought one of my rifles to a gun dealer for repairs a couple years ago and I had ammo in the gun case. Once I opened the case the guy that owned the shop told me its a big NO NO to keep bullets in the same case as the gun. Seemed like a reasonable rule so Ive been playing it safe for the last couple years.


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## crackshot (Nov 19, 2007)

On page 29, left hand collum, under "exception", it states "a percussion cap muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the percussion cap is removed" it can't get any simpler than that...Dave


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> Thanks again guys.
> 
> I brought one of my rifles to a gun dealer for repairs a couple years ago and I had ammo in the gun case. Once I opened the case the guy that owned the shop told me its a big NO NO to keep bullets in the same case as the gun. Seemed like a reasonable rule so Ive been playing it safe for the last couple years.


I'm sorry if you think I am picking on you here, but why would you have ammo in a rifle case that you were taking in for repairs? I would think it might make someone a little nervous. Just sayin'. 

I think the No-NO he was referring to would be in the SHIPPING of a firearm? Pretty sure you can't ship ammo in the same container as the firearm, but that is not what we were talking about either.

Here is some information about transporting firearms in Michigan. Please read the exceptions, they trump what is said earlier. Nothing about ammo not being allowed in the case as long as it is not in the barrel or magazine, or removable magazine is removed from the firearm.


*Transporting firearms*

Michigan law details how firearms may be transported in a vehicle. MCL 750.227c and MCL 750.227d discuss the transportation of firearms, other than pistols, in vehicles.

MCL 750.227(2) makes it a felony for a person to transport a pistol anywhere in a vehicle unless the person is licensed to carry a concealed
pistol. Exceptions to the above statute are found in MCL 750.231a.

One such exception allows for transportation of pistols in a vehicle for a lawful purpose. A lawful purpose includes going to or from any one of the following:
&#61607;
A hunting or target area
&#61607;
A place of repair
&#61607;
Moving goods from a home or business to another home or business
&#61607;
A law enforcement agency (for a safety inspection or to turn the pistol over to the agency)
&#61607;
A gun show or place of sale or purchase
&#61607;
A public shooting facility
&#61607;
Public land where shooting is legal
&#61607;
Private property where a pistol may be lawfully used

MCL 750.231a also provides that a pistol transported for a lawful purpose by a person not licensed to carry a concealed pistol must be all of the following:
&#61607;
Unloaded
&#61607;
In a closed case designed for firearms
&#61607;
In the trunk (or if the vehicle has no trunk, it must not be readily accessible to the occupants)

There is no way to open carry a pistol in a vehicle. An individual, without a CPL or otherwise exempted (e.g., a police officer), who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intends to open carry may be in violation of MCL 750.227.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

Here are the reference MCL's listed in that section.



Section 750.227c 

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.227c Transporting or possessing loaded firearm in or upon vehicle; violation as misdemeanor; penalty; applicability to person violating MCL 312.10(1)(g).

Sec. 227c.

(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.

(3) This section does not apply to a person who violates section 10(1)(g) of chapter II of Act No. 286 of the Public Acts of 1929, as amended, being section 312.10 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982 


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(fb...g.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-227c




Section 750.227d 

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

Sec. 227d.

(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:

(a) Taken down.

(b) Enclosed in a case.

(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.

(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.


History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982 


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(fb...g.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-227d



Section 750.227 


THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

Sec. 227.

(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.


History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.227 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 206, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1986, Act 8, Eff. July 1, 1986 
Constitutionality: The double jeopardy protection against multiple punishment for the same offense is a restriction on a court's ability to impose punishment in excess of that intended by the Legislature, not a limit on the Legislature's power to define crime and fix punishment. People v Sturgis, 427 Mich 392; 397 NW2d 783 (1986).
Former Law: See section 5 of Act 372 of 1927, being CL 1929, § 16753.


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(or...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-227




Section 750.231a 

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
Sec. 231a.

(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

(b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

(c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

(2) As used in this section: 

(a) "Antique firearm" means either of the following:

(i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.

(ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:

(i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

(ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.

(iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

(iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.

(v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.

(vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

(vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.



History: Add. 1964, Act 215, Eff. Aug. 28, 1964 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 191, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1974, Act 55, Imd. Eff. Apr. 1, 1974 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 280, Imd. Eff. July 6, 1978 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 82, Imd. Eff. Mar. 26, 2002 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 196, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009 


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2b...g.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-231a


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## Tracker83 (Jun 21, 2005)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> What do loose powder shooters do in this situation?


I use BH209 - what I do is pull the breech plug, pour the powder into a bucket, and discard the powder. It is not as messy as it may seem (at least with BH209 - other loose powders may be messier). It was definitely easier/cleaner to do when I was using 777 pellets, but it is still better than firing off a round and going through the entire cleaning regimen.


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## Rasher (Oct 14, 2004)

Tracker83 said:


> I use BH209 - what I do is pull the breech plug, pour the powder into a bucket, and discard the powder. It is not as messy as it may seem (at least with BH209 - other loose powders may be messier). It was definitely easier/cleaner to do when I was using 777 pellets, but it is still better than firing off a round and going through the entire cleaning regimen.


I do the same thing, cept I use my stand up shower and wash it away, Uncle BP how many time a year do you think you would do this 2-3 maybe, yes its a waste of powder but when you consider what you pay for everything 100gr of powder is the absolutely cheapest thing there is. My B-N-L prefers to take his apart(he shoots pellets) too, but he waits till hes at home, how many people have the tools with them to take it apart in the field, I carry enuff s**t with me don't need that stuff too, maybe some guys that have those new type breach plugs that you can remove by hand, but I will say I have thought of try pellets for this very reason, you made me think on it alittle more.


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