# Zero turn mowers



## UplandnWaterfowl (Jan 3, 2010)

bucko12pt said:


> I looked at the Scag Freedom Z also. Nice machine, but the suspension system on the Toro might make the decision for me.


Nothing wrong with the Scag suspension system, very good and comfortable even after a whole day of mowing. Go ahead and be a taken in by marketing that says you need corinthian leather for comfort and end up buying an import. Me I went with a 100% USA built mower (Scag) that upon closer inspection is made just like the mower that I would design and be proud to put my name on, no fancy stuff to break, it is built like a machine that will outlast me. Research who builds Toro, they outsourced it.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

UplandnWaterfowl said:


> Nothing wrong with the Scag suspension system, very good and comfortable even after a whole day of mowing. Go ahead and be a taken in by marketing that says you need corinthian leather for comfort and end up buying an import. Me I went with a 100% USA built mower (Scag) that upon closer inspection is made just like the mower that I would design and be proud to put my name on, no fancy stuff to break, it is built like a machine that will outlast me. Research who builds Toro, they outsourced it.


I sold for Caterpillar for 25 years, so I generally don't get taken by marketing on products like this. Toro is based in Minneapolis and my understanding is their zero turns are built in the US. I will verify that. 

The heart of these machines are the drive motors and the engines. Scag uses Kohler engines and Toro builds their own. Both use Hydro Gear drive systems, Scag the ZT 2800 and Toro the heavier duty ZT 3100 in the comparative models I'm looking at. 

http://blog.shankslawn.com/hydro-gear-zt-2800-vs-zt-3100-hydrostatic-drive-systems/

http://www.scag.com/freedomz/freedomz.html#modeloptions



I know Scag is a good product, as is Toro. Scag, Toro and Exmark own the bulk of the commercial zero turn business, that should mean something. 

Caterpillar manufactured many different models in several different places in the world for local markets. I would own any of those machines whether built in the US, or overseas. Lord knows by now we should know there are products produced overseas that are as good, or better, than US built. 

That said, I do try to buy US built first.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Zero turn mowers aren't the best on steeper hills. The front tires just roll, but aren't in a fixed position, so they give you no traction, or directional steering whatsoever. The rear tires are ALL of the power, and direction. When I had a lawn service, there were simply some lawns we didn't ride until the grass was dry. One of my guys took a sideways ride (well, it started sideways, and ended forward) that almost put him, and my machine in Belleville Lake, one morning - riding wet grass on a fairly steep hill. The best way to cut relatively steep hills with a zero turn mower, is to always go pretty much straight down, then circle back, as you climb the hill. That isn't real efficient for mowing, but is the best way on steep hills with a ZT. On pretty flat ground, ZTs run circles around all other machines. 

I will add that one of the biggest caveats of ZT machines, is that the blade speed is so much faster than other mowers. That is from a combination of big engines, and gearing. Faster blades cut better, and faster, which allows you to go faster. The finished cut looks better with faster blades.


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## DeerManager (Oct 4, 2006)

I'm still stuck between Scag and Husqvarna


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

Fishndude said:


> Zero turn mowers aren't the best on steeper hills. The front tires just roll, but aren't in a fixed position, so they give you no traction, or directional steering whatsoever. The rear tires are ALL of the power, and direction. When I had a lawn service, there were simply some lawns we didn't ride until the grass was dry. One of my guys took a sideways ride (well, it started sideways, and ended forward) that almost put him, and my machine in Belleville Lake, one morning - riding wet grass on a fairly steep hill. The best way to cut relatively steep hills with a zero turn mower, is to always go pretty much straight down, then circle back, as you climb the hill. That isn't real efficient for mowing, but is the best way on steep hills with a ZT. On pretty flat ground, ZTs run circles around all other machines.
> 
> I will add that one of the biggest caveats of ZT machines, is that the blade speed is so much faster than other mowers. That is from a combination of big engines, and gearing. Faster blades cut better, and faster, which allows you to go faster. The finished cut looks better with faster blades.


Thanks for the input. 

Most of what I have for hills are fairly gradual, but I do have one that is steeper. I cut it sideways with my JD 445 tractor in prob 8-10 passes, so it's not a majority of what I mow. 

I'm going to borrow a Scag from a friend and try it on the hills before I make a final decision.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

bucko12pt said:


> I sold for Caterpillar for 25 years, so I generally don't get taken by marketing on products like this. Toro is based in Minneapolis and my understanding is their zero turns are built in the US. I will verify that.
> 
> The heart of these machines are the drive motors and the engines. Scag uses Kohler engines and Toro builds their own. Both use Hydro Gear drive systems, Scag the ZT 2800 and Toro the heavier duty ZT 3100 in the comparative models I'm looking at.
> 
> ...


Toro does not make their own engines on the riders. Maybe on 20" walk mowers. I have a Kohler on mine.
Toro and Exmark are now the same company although still make separate brands. Lot of interchangeable parts.

Over the years I have demo'd many. Scag, gravely, Ferris, Toro, Exmark. Scag sucked. Even customers noticed. Tried a gravely rider with a "mulch kit". All it was was the discharge was blocked off and gator blades used. It sucked. A friend of mine owns a retail shop and had me demo many pieces for an honest review.

Toro and Exmark have a dedicated system. Separate cutting chambers with dedicated blades. Even with Exmark I found aftermarket blades that were better than OEM.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

Fishndude said:


> Zero turn mowers aren't the best on steeper hills. The front tires just roll, but aren't in a fixed position, so they give you no traction, or directional steering whatsoever. The rear tires are ALL of the power, and direction. When I had a lawn service, there were simply some lawns we didn't ride until the grass was dry. One of my guys took a sideways ride (well, it started sideways, and ended forward) that almost put him, and my machine in Belleville Lake, one morning - riding wet grass on a fairly steep hill. The best way to cut relatively steep hills with a zero turn mower, is to always go pretty much straight down, then circle back, as you climb the hill. That isn't real efficient for mowing, but is the best way on steep hills with a ZT. On pretty flat ground, ZTs run circles around all other machines.
> 
> I will add that one of the biggest caveats of ZT machines, is that the blade speed is so much faster than other mowers. That is from a combination of big engines, and gearing. Faster blades cut better, and faster, which allows you to go faster. The finished cut looks better with faster blades.


When I had a hill or two that were too dangerous for a rider it was best to use a walk behind and go across and work your way up. Never down.


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## 12Point (Mar 18, 2008)

What's the skinny on Ferris? They look nice and have the appearance of a quality zero turn


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

12Point said:


> What's the skinny on Ferris? They look nice and have the appearance of a quality zero turn


Just OK. Best I have found in 30years in business is Toro and Exmark.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> When I had a hill or two that were too dangerous for a rider it was best to use a walk behind and go across and work your way up. Never down.


Yeah, we walked a lot of steeper hills, too. But you always want to try "that one hill" on a rider. Then one day the grass is wet, lol. And for going straight down hills, you do need a "rollout" at the bottom. And you do have to circle back up the hill somehow. ZTs aren't always good at hills.

Bucko12pt: Here's a tip for riding "hills." If the hill is a berm, or has a ridge along it, or at the top; do NOT cross over that ridge. Your wheels will by on either side, with your deck in the middle. That's called "Scalping" a lawn. You'll find out when you start to cut. If you just cut grass down to the quick, it will come back if the sod is moist. If you cut into the roots, you'll have to re-seed. Re-seeding is simple on scalped sod. Immediately cover the scalped part with decent seed, and then just stomp around on it to push it into the top of the dirt.

Cut parallel to ridges or tops of berms. If you have ditches that are the right size, and pitch, you can have a real fun ride - can't be much more than the deck width to work right. You just drop in, put your back tire at the bottom, and go - riding out at the other end. You will want to pick up obstacles on your first few cuts - large rocks, bricks, cans, larger sticks, etc. Especially rocks. If there are holes, or ruts, that cause your machine to buck, and cut unevenly, fill em in. The smoother the ride, the faster the cut, and the nicer your cuts will look.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

Fishndude said:


> Yeah, we walked a lot of steeper hills, too. But you always want to try "that one hill" on a rider. Then one day the grass is wet, lol. And for going straight down hills, you do need a "rollout" at the bottom. And you do have to circle back up the hill somehow. ZTs aren't always good at hills.
> 
> Bucko12pt: Here's a tip for riding "hills." If the hill is a berm, or has a ridge along it, or at the top; do NOT cross over that ridge. Your wheels will by on either side, with your deck in the middle. That's called "Scalping" a lawn. You'll find out when you start to cut. If you just cut grass down to the quick, it will come back if the sod is moist. If you cut into the roots, you'll have to re-seed. Re-seeding is simple on scalped sod. Immediately cover the scalped part with decent seed, and then just stomp around on it to push it into the top of the dirt.
> 
> Cut parallel to ridges or tops of berms. If you have ditches that are the right size, and pitch, you can have a real fun ride - can't be much more than the deck width to work right. You just drop in, put your back tire at the bottom, and go - riding out at the other end. You will want to pick up obstacles on your first few cuts - large rocks, bricks, cans, larger sticks, etc. Especially rocks. If there are holes, or ruts, that cause your machine to buck, and cut unevenly, fill em in. The smoother the ride, the faster the cut, and the nicer your cuts will look.



I live in Leelanau Co on an old farmstead, so seems almost everything is rolling up, or down. Nothing really severe, but half, or a little more is flat or somewhat flat. My only concern is one spot across a side hill that's prob 50x125', so it's not a huge obstacle. I mow it now with my JD lawn garden tractor with no issues, so I'm sure I'll get it done with a zero turn. 

I've been mowing it for years, so it's pretty clean of obstacles, but is bumpy in spots. Going to borrow a Scag from a buddy in a couple days, just to see how it goes. 

Thanks.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> Toro does not make their own engines on the riders. Maybe on 20" walk mowers. I have a Kohler on mine.
> Toro and Exmark are now the same company although still make separate brands. Lot of interchangeable parts.
> 
> Over the years I have demo'd many. Scag, gravely, Ferris, Toro, Exmark. Scag sucked. Even customers noticed. Tried a gravely rider with a "mulch kit". All it was was the discharge was blocked off and gator blades used. It sucked. A friend of mine owns a retail shop and had me demo many pieces for an honest review.
> ...



Since 2015 the new Toro ZX twin cylinder engines are built by Toro at a plant in Minneapolis, so they no longer use aftermarket engines on their zero turns. I read somewhere that Toro was sued by Honda for patent infringement on their engine, so it's easy to see where the inspiration for their engine design came from. 

Their zero turns are built in an ex Exmark plant in Beatrice, NE. 

I was talking to a couple owners today from the local dealer that told me they have been to the Beatrice facility. 
They gave me the above info and I'm trying to verify, but it's hard to get info. I did read somewhere that MTD builds engines for their tractors and some other products, but I don't think they use their engines for any zero turns. MTD manufactures engines for several different manufacturers.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

To save some $ find a dealer with demos for sale. They usually are used by customers while theirs is being repaired. The last five I have gotten were demos. And you still get the factory warranty.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

Bought a new Toro today. $4799 plus tax, less $250 VISA card and 0% financing for 12 months. Don't need that, but necessary to get the VISA card. Can be paid off anytime with no penalty. 

Especially satisfied with the engine and drive system which is same as some of the lower end Commercial Toro's and Exmark's. 

https://www.toro.com/en/homeowner/riding-mowers/timecutter-hd-75202

https://www.torodealer.com/en-US/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=timecutter-hd-75202(Toro)


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

My dad bought a similar Exmark model last year. I used it while he recovered from a broken hip. Definitely can tell the difference between that one and one of my commercial units. Should do just fine for most home owners. (he's got 5 acres to do)


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> My dad bought a similar Exmark model last year. I used it while he recovered from a broken hip. Definitely can tell the difference between that one and one of my commercial units. Should do just fine for most home owners. (he's got 5 acres to do)


No doubt, that's the difference in paying $5k and $10........or more. 

I talked to a guy running a diesel Kubota near a parking lot I pulled into this morning and he said he paid $19k and it is the worst zero turn he's ever run on hills because it's so heavy and wants to slide downhill all the time.
More money doesn't always mean better. 

I'll probably run mine 15-20 hours a year, at most, so it should work for me and much faster than my JD tractor.


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## Cat Power (Jan 6, 2013)

Caterpillar is the best!

agreed


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## DeerManager (Oct 4, 2006)

Ended up with this, wife said she couldn't pass up the deal or the tools that were included.
I maintain my tools religiously, so it should last me a nice long time.
Thanks for all the info guys.
If i knew my budget doubled from my first post, I'd probably have an Exmark.
https://sleequipment.com/husqvarna-mzt61-kohler-zero-turn-lawn-mower.html


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