# Au Sable River - water levels at Foote Dam



## Fishndude

Agreed 100%. I am sure that Kelly is as aware of the factors which affect the populations and sizes of lake Huron Salmon and Steelhead, much more than the average person. He works in the environment almost daily, and is very in-touch with the whole ecosystem. His efforts to be a better steward of the river are commendable. And I agree, to a point, that something can and should be done to improve the Ausable for MI anglers. For instance, WHY do so many Steelhead, which are planted in the Ausable, migrate across the lake, and run the Saugeen River, in Canada? If we solve that problem, we will have a very good fishery, again. 

The truth about the Ausable silting in, is that the river has always been full of sand. It runs through sandy country, and is mostly comprised of sand, with intermittent areas of gravel. The name Ausable, means Sandy, and I imagine there was a reason it was given that name. I wish the river was deeper in a lot of places, but you can literally see big areas of sand move through the river, if you are on it a lot. I think that keeping the water flows at higher levels would be better for fishing, overall. I just don't get why so many fish run to a different river, than the Ausable - or even to other nearby rivers? All of the rivers along lake Huron have many fewer fish returning than they used to.


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## Kelly Neuman

The way I see it is salmon decline and steelhead decline did not happen at the same time. Salmon has a flat out collaspe and that was from Alewife collaspe. When that happened steelhead fishing remained strong. When Cormarant numbers went sky high in the early 2000's and they started feed heavy in the Au Sable on stock steelhead a few years later steelhead numbers started dropping. Many plants in Lake Huron that were done in late April were basically just bird food. The last few years the DNR has been trying to not stock fish right around Cormarant spring migration and there has been a lot of control (not enough) and harrassment projects. Cormarant numbers are now dropping. I think steelhead numbers are on the rise and should continue to grow. This winter fishing has been much better than the last few and I think spring will also be better. When Foote Dam is run as it is licensed to run fishing is better! Those nasty over populated birds will not be eating our steelhead this spring without something being shot at them.


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## Pink Bags

Like others have said, salmon are the ONLY salmonoid that is primarily dependent on Alewife. Steelhead eat alot of the same things that walleyes eat. I thought steelhead fishing was pretty solid up until the fall of 2005, then it went way down. The years 2001, 02, 03, 04, and 05 saw LOTS of cormorants. They used to sit in big flocks in the trees along the dam and eat and eat at will on the newly planted smolts. You would also see them around Rea rd. Funny thing was, you wouldn't see a single cormorant before they planted, then within a DAY after they planted the first batch of steelhead, they'd be there. I haven't seen the cormorant numbers that I used to for the last two springs, which is good. Steelheadin' has been pretty good this winter, but has slowed alot lately. Coincidentally, consumers has also been messing with the flows lately. I'm not even joking, when they keep the river at a nice flow, which for winter IMHO, is 1100-1300cfs, the fishing is steady and the fish are aggressive. Raising-lowering-raising-lowering really shuts them down. And when they drop the flow so low you see gravel ABOVE water, that's just wrong.....


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## JHO

BIGWAK- The big Walleyes I have been catching the last few years were caught BTW. Tawas Point and the mouth of the AuSable River and they were 10-40 down over 80-100. I guarantee you they were not eating gobies.Walleyes in the inner bay feed heavily on gobies and perch but those open water fish in the outer Bay N. of the Charities and Lake Huron are utilizing a number of diff. forage fish.Also as others point out Steelhead and Salmon don't always use the same food sources. Water levels are critical to fishing on any river and I can tell you that running the levels up and down only makes things worse.Stability in water levels and weather patterns is key in any fishing situation. A big thanks is in order for Kelly who is a great river keeper. I live closer to the west side rivers than the lower AuSable but would start fishing over there more regularily if things were to improve.


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## bigwak

Stream - 
First off - I applaud your efforts if you are leading the charge to get Consumers to operate properly. And I hope you're right that number are on the rise and we have a bright fishin future, because I'll be catching those fish.

Maybe not more than you, but I am more informed than most. I have spent thousands of hours over the last 20 years fishing steelhead in the AuSable catching hundreds of steelhead. I've been standing at the boat launch during steelhead plantings probably last 7 out the last 10 years..the other years I was on a boat downstream on that day. I've not seen the numbers of cormorants that are spoken of here. I am a fisheries biologist (MS) and have done fisheries research all around Michigan, including Saginaw Bay and Thunder Bay. I'm informed and I believe my schooling, research, and fishing experiences allow me an opinion. You can say all that doesn't matter if you want. If you chose not to agree with me, that's fine. There have been a lot of good points contributed in this discussion that I believe contribute to the poor fishing but I don't think they are the base reason that fishing has declined. I think there are fewer fish river because there are fewer fish in the lake because there's less food in the lake. As Fishindude said, all runs in Lake Huron tribs are down. 

Finally, I don't see any reason that this discussion has to get personnal with comments like "blowing hot air" because I pose an opinion that differs from yours. Instead of insults, why don't you cite some research that explains why I'm wrong. If you have it, chances are I'll believe you. I'm a scientist will believe scientifically supported conclusions. I sure don't believe people just because they are agressive.


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## Kelly Neuman

Last year Cormarants came into the river heavy April 27th. Roughly 500 were in the lower section from 3 pipes to the mouth. Volunteers were unable to chase birds out and federal/state did come and kill a number of birds. Everyday until around May 10th huge flocks of these birds were chased out of river and about the only thing that really worked was killing them. In past years steelhead fisherman would see birds starting in late Arpil throughout the river. Heavest number of birds were in Oscoda in early May when young steelhead are heading back to lake. In 2001 thru 2005 sites of 500 to 1000 birds feeding freely on steelhead plants were common. This is just all common knowledge in Oscoda. Singing bridge, Tawas, Thunder Bay, etc all have seen the same thing when fish are planted in late April. When it comes to what Cormarants have done to planted steelhead in the lower AuSable there is not two different sides or opinions. Someone who does not see this has not done any reseach on the matter. Start with calling Lynn at Au Sable River Store he has watched all of this first hand out his front windows.

Bigwak I'm always looking for more info. Please post baitfish survey data for the past few years for the Oscoda/Tawas area. Also steelhead growth and size data from the past few years. This information would be very helpful in showing the problems you state and I'm sure this data must have been gathered by biologist working in Lake Huron around the Au Sable River.


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## Reel_Screamer86

*Streamside, kudo's to you for all your effort ....For those that dont know, as some should know that Streamside fishes the AuSable more than any Charter up there, therefore he has a grasp on the river conditions, fish population and so on.. *

*I would like to know why the DNR didnt step up when the river started to decline, along with the fish..And if Streamside didnt stand up and voice his opinion , where would we be right now ! My thoughts are its a little to late for a change , as it will never be the same river as it once was before like in the late 80's when i started fishing it..But i hope i'm wrong..*

I'm a scientist will believe scientifically supported conclusions

*Well sometimes their not right, to me its hands on with this problem, you cant sit there and read it, get out there and see it....*


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## Pink Bags

I've sent a total of 9 e-mails to consumers, in fact I sent three for 3-days in a row, just to show that that we're very serious about this. I'm all for anything that helps out the Au Sable as it's my home river and forever my favorite. I think the east-side as a whole is pretty neglected by the DNR, probably gave up on it without a fight like most of the other guys that _used_ to fish it.....


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## Ron Matthews

James wants to come back!


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## bigwak

Thanks for the information. I did talk to Lynn on multiple occassions last year about the cormorants. He asked me to help with the effort but I wasn't free to help last year. Hopefully this year. His story then wasn't as dire, but maybe we didn't get into it enough for him to get to that. I asked him specifically if he saw a ton of them and I don't recall him saying it was terrible. He said he wasn't sure and that he hoped that the DNR solution would work. So do I. Can you point me to any documents that I can read to get more information on the estimated effect of cormorants predation on steelhead plants. I don't know you, maybe you are the true expert on the effects of cormorants, but I need more than a few people's opinion to jump on board. I've watched in horror for years as sportsmen and others present absolute, definitive conclusions about what's happening in nature based on few observations and no real data. I'm not inclined to believe that about you...but how do I know? Has anyone actually studied it? If so, I'd love to read their conclusions.

Real_Screamer - scientists do make mistakes...but I believe that for every opinion developed by a scientist using solid data, there are hundreds of opinions forwarded by untrained observers (usually sportsman) that also are mistakes. (BTW I'm not a couch potato and I do spend significant time on that river. So please lose that notion.) Also I've never understood why many sportsmen believe that scientists are out of touch with nature and don't spend enough time in nature to understand things like sportsman. That's BS. I sure wouldn't want an untrained sportsman to manage our fisheries or deer herd based on a limited sample of catch or kill (That's not a reference to any of you).

As for data...I don't currently do research in those areas of Lake Huron, but I did post a link to published research compiled for Lake Huron. As that information concluded, the Lk Huron ecosystem has changed from a pelagic-run system to a benthic-run system. As steelhead are pelagic feeders, this affects them. And for those that think walleye are pelagic, don't believe me, please read the link. Just because you might catch them suspended, doesn't mean that spend a majority of their forage time suspended. As it also said, walleye are very opportunistic...more so than salmonids.

Lastly, we've moved away from my major premise that river flows don't affect total catch as much as absolute numbers, but probably affect the bite. That's ok, this has been interesting.


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## Ron Matthews

Tell Lisa Flow don't Matter!! 
Cause I Know better- So does Kelly, So do most who have actually spent some time on the river.. We seen it happen!!!


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## bigwak

I got pictures too, lots and lots of them. And mine are from the AuSable. They don't mean squat and either does your inuendo. BTW - When was the last time that boat was on the AuSable R? Not so much, heh?


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## Ron Matthews

bigwak said:


> I got pictures too, lots and lots of them. And mine are from the AuSable. They don't mean squat and either does your inuendo. BTW - When was the last time that boat was on the AuSable R? Not so much, heh?


Ya, you got me there..
Only a handfull of One day trips since 06, it crashed hard that year! Breaks my heart.

From the Ausable? Look close...

I chase the flow. Alway's have! Always will.

If I was going to throw a Pic? It be this one
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/hawgemall/DSCN0833

pic of a pic, sorry


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## Ron Matthews

Ron Matthews said:


> Ya, you got me there..
> Only a handfull of One day trips since 06, it crashed hard that year! Breaks my heart.
> 
> From the Ausable? Look close...
> 
> I chase the flow. Alway's have! Always will.
> 
> If I was going to throw a Pic? It be this one
> http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/hawgemall/DSCN0833
> 
> pic of a pic, sorry[/quote]
> 
> [IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/hawgemall/DSCN0833.jpg
> 
> Thanks for drawing even more Attention


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## Kelly Neuman

Nice photos Ron and always good to hear from you. There many problems that should have been addressed long ago on the lower Au Sable but were not. Protecting young steelhead plants from cormorants finally started in 2007 and this was setup by USDA and DNR biologist. These harassment projects have been done at other problem places in Lake Huron as well  Thunder Bay River and Rockport. Why? To try and get stocked steelhead out to deep water so cormorants can not eat them all. Bigwak you stated you were a fisheries biologist you should contact your colleagues and have them bring you up to speed on the problem instead of making foolish statements. Until just recently these federally protected birds were completely untouchable and projects like these were not possible. There is also population control (not enough in my opinion) and egg oily being done in the summer months. Our governor did also sign bill into law in 2007 for increased control on cormorants. (ww.senate.michigan.gov/gop/readarticle.asp?id=672&District=35)

Operating Foote Dam with more constant flows and more cormorant control can improve our steelhead fishing on the Au Sable. Both of these are fixable problem and need more support.


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## Blaketrout

One other thing....

If you go to the DNR website there is a form there to fill out if you observe "nuisance" cormorant behavior. Print out a BUNCH of these give some to your fishing buddies and send them into the DNR anytime you see cormorants wreaking havoc on fish.. 

The DNR needs the Data so it can determine which area's pose major cormorant problems. It may lead to some form of cormorant control in the problem area, hopefully.


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## Ron Matthews

I'm going To try and make it wed. at 1? 

I gave up. 
We Shouldn't have..


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## bigwak

Ron - Sorry to hear about your boat. I feel your pain. Mine had an unfortunate meltdown last fall, going to the shop this week. I think i recognize that spot. A nice run above one of the most popular holes? My guess is that water was up at 10-10.5, maybe 11'. 10.5' is my favorite flow. Hard to gage based on bank, but get me a look at the log in said hole...


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## Ron Matthews

bigwak said:


> Ron - Sorry to hear about your boat. I feel your pain. Mine had an unfortunate meltdown last fall, going to the shop this week. I think i recognize that spot. A nice run above one of the most popular holes? My guess is that water was up at 10-10.5, maybe 11'. 10.5' is my favorite flow. Hard to gage based on bank, but get me a look at the log in said hole...


 


I knew I must Know you!
We've "chatted" before.:lol:


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## bigwak

I sent you a PM. I like a good chat. Very sporting.


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## RIVER LADY

LOL...I read all the posts. Streamside, hats off to you and much appreciated. 

Just so you all know. I KNOW THE RIVER BEST There, that dilema is over with. :lol: 

As for the problem. I'm not educated enough to make an educated guesstimate.:sad:

As for who knows who. Ya'll know each other silly men. :lol::lol:

We are all concerend for the old Girl. Everyone just do what you can when you can to help preserve her.

Oh and.....STAY THE HECK OUT OF MY HONEY HOLES!!!


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## JHO

Bigwak- I never said Walleye are Pelagic feeders,they are indeed opportunistic feeders, and that in itself explains why they are suspended out over that deep water. They as well as any predator fish are never far from the groceries.They are not swimming around out there just for exercise.


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## Kelly Neuman

For those who think flow does not matter you should go look at lower Au Sable today! Flow dropped a couple of feet and no need for a boat. It is at 658cfs and much lower it will be dried up. That is after 6 weeks of good snow/rain. Meeting with Consumers is tomorrow (Feb 13th) in Oscoda at 1pm at Township Hall for those who care.


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## Fishndude

There is no reason the river should be flowing at that rate for very long - maybe just to free an obstruction from a turbine, or something. You could practically walk around and pick any fish up in that flow. I can't imagine that they would bit very well @ 658 CFS. There is no way anyone should run a motorized boat on the river at that level - unless you want to end up rowing out. Definitely wouldn't want to launch and motor downstream.:lol:

The other thing about water flows which are controlled by dams is that in nature there is a gradual raising and lowering of flow, from water events. With dams there is a sudden raising and lowering of flows; which is completely unnatural to species living in the environment. Steelhead typically migrate upstream on dropping water, after a high water event. When the water cranks up real fast, and then drops back down to prior levels just as fast, there is not that natural gradual drop in water flow; and it is very possible that the fish do not run because they are not genetically programmed to run in that changing water situation.


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## Kelly Neuman

The water is flowing higher four dams upstream today. Mio Dam is running higher than Foote. Consumers has created more low water days than need be by doing this type of flow manipulations. Correcting this would have a very positive effect on our steelhead fishing.


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## Slodrift

I will be attending, I see they're dropping it again today for no reason.:rant:


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## Pink Bags

Consumers really needs to get their ass kicked hard at this meeting, if I didn't have to work, I'd be there. I'd also probably get escorted out anyway because after hearing all they're BS exscuses, I'd be ready to beat someone.....658cfs is completely ABSURD:rant:! I've never seen it that low, although for most of the fall we were fishing in 700-900cfs. When the water gets really low, under 1100cfs, the fish get really, really skittish. I'm so sick of this complete and assinine(sp?) disregard to one of the most storied and respected rivers in Michigan.



> I will be attending, I see they're dropping it again today for no reason


Give them HELL tomorrow Shawn!!!!!!


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## autumnlovr

Can someone please explain "run of river" to me? I used to fish the AuSable when they did the 10-10:30am flush. After we bought a boat & moved to the big water...my river fishing days were limited. Then, when the salmon fishery collapsed, I reluctantly cut way back on my fishing in that area. Since we still have a vested interest in the area (we have hunting property there), I'd love to see the fishery return.

Is someone going to post the results of the meeting?

Thanks!


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## Shredder

One thing not being mentioned here is the general water levels/flows. If I remember right several years ago the water flows on the Ausable river were at 2/3 of historical levels, and have been for a while. These were presented during relicense meetings on the hydros, I have not seen current levels, or stats but have nothing to suggest that it is any higher. If you think like me, there is less water, any fluctuations are more noticeable. The ponds don't show low levels because they are mantained at somewhat artificical levels by the hydros. But water in water out, or run of river is dependant on mother nature. You see it in the lakes as well, big and small. Of course the whole problem is much more complicated than that, with non native species in our lakes, corrmorants coming back because of less pcb's ect ect. Just something more to think about in a very complicated ecosystem.......Shredder


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## Shredder

autumnlovr said:


> Can someone please explain "run of river" to me? I used to fish the AuSable when they did the 10-10:30am flush.
> Thanks!


I'm sure not an expert, I only act like one on the internet. But as I understand it there are guages at key places on the AuSable. The hydros use these to detirmine the release of water at the hydros. So as water increases/decreases flow at one of the guages, the run of river hydros, Mio, Alcona, and Foote adjust there flows according to this data. The in between hydros Loud, 5 channels, and Cooke are allowed to peak, within set limits. They let the ponds rise at night when there is smaller demand for electricity then run their turbines during the day to create power. In the past Foote was a peaking hydro so as you and I remember at 10:30 or 11 AM they would run a shot of water down the river and fishing got real good. This was curtailed and run of river started with the relicense. Of course back then we had more fish and less problems in the big lake.......Shredder


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