# any skam sightings?



## Fishigan21 (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm going to make a trip down from northern michigan...any idea on a week to target would be great. Thanks,dan
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jay Wesley (Mar 2, 2009)

There are a few below Berrien Springs on the St. Joseph River. The water temp was 74 today.


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## 20acredave (Jun 2, 2009)

Can't ask for a better report than that! Thanks Jay. i imagine they will only get better as the summer progresses. Do you think the highr water flows from the rain will slow them or help?


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

> I'm going to make a trip down from northern michigan


Why head down?.....


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## Dr. Steelhead (Nov 2, 2005)

Made a trip over to the west side today. I didn't hook into any Skams only one sucker. I managed to take a few good pics of the scenery though. I then headed out to the pier where the action was slow for most that I talked to done there. I can't wait for a few weeks when things will start to pick up.


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

Dr. Steelhead said:


> Made a trip over to the west side today. I didn't hook into any Skams only one sucker. I managed to take a few good pics of the scenery though. I then headed out to the pier where the action was slow for most that I talked to done there. I can't wait for a few weeks when things will start to pick up.


I hear ya on that one. This is the slowest time of year IMO. I love July through April. I can usually find some kind of salmon/trout species to fish. I'm not much of a trout fisherman and I hate the heat of the summer.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Last year we had a mild summer and the skam fishing was great in the streams. The year before last we had some really hot days when the fish would be stale. They were more focused on surviving the heat rather than hitting a bait or lure. 

The berrien springs fish cam seems to be down that would definitely help in knowing if there are fish moving through the ladder.

From what I know about skams any rain or high muddy water will cause them to move upstream. They feel secure moving in dirty water. They often do much of their migrating at night. Since one day an area may be void of fish while the next morning it may be loaded with fish. Unlike winter run fish that hold in slower deep pools in lower sections of the river, skams often fly up through the system to find cooler water temps. They also hold in faster water. 

I now have the dilemma of fishing off the piers being patient and playing the waiting game or being proactive chasing them down in the streams. Decisions, decisions, decisions . I am pretty much still in pier fishing mode but I have yet to land a fish on my new center pin reel. I have built vertical rod holders for anchored bobber fishing and horizontal rod holders (my favorite) for waggler float and bottom fishing. I also have 3 bait runners that I would like to put to further use. Although they have had a few encounters with the skamania kind !


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

With river temps in the upper 70's and very few fish in the system down here, I would venture to say it will be a while, need some cool nights and no rain to cool her down...


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

WOW, I always knew the jo got quite warm but upper 70s geez, no wonder many of the rivers that dont get plants have skamania staging off their pier heads. Well that and all the bait around the piers north of st. jo.

Poor fish, talk about a suicide run!


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## Jay Wesley (Mar 2, 2009)

steely74 said:


> WOW, I always knew the jo got quite warm but upper 70s geez, no wonder many of the rivers that dont get plants have skamania staging off their pier heads. Well that and all the bait around the piers north of st. jo.
> 
> Poor fish, talk about a suicide run!


The river is 75 degrees right now. No movement. When it gets down in the lower 70' s we can see some movement. These fish then hit the coldwater tributaries and wait out any future warm water events until fall. So it is not a suicide run provided that they find a tributary.


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## 1BIGNIMROD (May 7, 2009)

When exactly do they spawn Jay?


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

1BIGNIMROD said:


> When exactly do they spawn Jay?


Feb, March--depending on water temps, some can spawn in January (i.e. mild winter with some run off).


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Its a good thing these fish can move fast to find the cooler water! The fish cam seems to be back up and running. I have seen a stray skam occasionally but nothing significant. I do chase them in certain tribs but do not really target them in the Jo itself. In a few weeks I plan on making my first trip up to MI for stream skams. It seems as if the Jo gets a lot of the pressure while the 1st major trib kinda gets neglected. I have seen quite a few skams in a lower section of this major trib. Last year due to the mild summer temps in Indiana a lot of fish went up a different trib than usual. It may be quite possible that a lot of the fish may run up a different trib of the Jo due to the higher temps this year. Just a thought, but I may be wrong since there is just no telling with these fish.

As far as spawning thousandcasts is correct. This year I caught dropback skams in early march at the same time when fresh little manistee strain fish were running up. I intersected them both in some high water, it was one of my better days on the river as far as numbers go. 

Thanks for the info Jay!


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## Fishigan21 (Feb 22, 2006)

Thanks for the info, I think I'm heading north!

I caught this hen in late Feb and it appeared spawned out (I released her). Always wondered if it was a skamania...2 fin clips. From your comments I suppose it could have been?


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

River temps dropped. Enough said :coolgleam


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

Multispeciestamer said:


> River temps dropped. Enough said :coolgleam


How on earth have the river temps dropped when the air temp has been in the 90's for 3-4 days? We chased skams for a chunk of this weekend and they are really struggling to stay alive in the river. Saturday they were in decent shape and by today they are in survival mode. 

I really wouldn't say the river is the place to be right now. Until we get some cooler temps and a cold rain the fish in the river are not exactly aggresive. Many are just sitting waiting to die.


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## RDS-1025 (Dec 1, 2008)

Multispeciestamer said:


> River temps dropped. Enough said :coolgleam


OTAY!!


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

> Until we get some cooler temps and a cold rain the fish in the river are not exactly aggresive. Many are just sitting waiting to die.


Damn, that's rough man. We had a slooowww day as well today, in fact it's the first day in almost 2 weeks not one skam was hooked by anyone. It rained and was a good overcast, but they were not on the bite at all. I did see something interesting, freshly worked gravel.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

we are still catching them, along with some walleye. Dont think just because the air temp is hot the river is hot. When the river lowers down and clears up the temp drops down. Were as the rivers been high flooded and muddy up untill this last week.


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

Multispeciestamer said:


> we are still catching them, along with some walleye. Dont think just because the air temp is hot the river is hot. When the river lowers down and clears up the temp drops down. Were as the rivers been high flooded and muddy up untill this last week.


Dude, really? 92 degrees and sunny makes for very, very warm rivers. Esspecially when the nights are staying around 70. I didn't say you couldn't catch fish, but the water temps are really, really high for these fish to be anything but stressed. The temps may have dropped a bit last week, but they are up now. Way up.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

This is the time for Catch and Keep Steelhead fishing, for sure. I've heard very credible reports of some Skams caught from the usual good spots. Low clear water in very hot weather = low, clear, HOT water. When the weather is like this, it is not unusual for the water temps to vary by 2* - 3* Fahrenheit between daytime and nighttime. Any temps over 65* are hard on Steelies, without them being caught. Add a fight to their day, and they will probably have a short day - and life. 

Watching that 10-day weather forecast for the good pier fishing.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

quest32a said:


> Dude, really? 92 degrees and sunny makes for very, very warm rivers. Esspecially when the nights are staying around 70. I didn't say you couldn't catch fish, but the water temps are really, really high for these fish to be anything but stressed. The temps may have dropped a bit last week, but they are up now. Way up.


Maybe they put a bubbler at the Berrien dam and when they run it, the river temps go from 85 degrees down to a brisk 84.5.


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## CaptainTJ (Jun 28, 2010)

Well, I went out 7-5, launches at Shamrock Park and went 4 for 6 on Steelies. Had a alot of hits, ust need to know where to fish when the river is so warm.. Try some cooler holes or feeder creeks.. I have been seeing a few steelies but havent seen that many around the dam and only seen a few on the cam myself.. Im heading back out this week and hopefully I can post another positve report!!


TJ Gill


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Ive heard boats have been doing great, these guys on here just dont take the time to learn. thanks for the report and tight lines.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Multispeciestamer said:


> Ive heard boats have been doing great, these guys on here just dont take the time to learn. thanks for the report and tight lines.


No, those of us who have spent years chasing fish and already know the game...and know it well, learned a long time ago to keep our mouths shut about it.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

thousandcasts said:


> Maybe they put a bubbler at the Berrien dam and when they run it, the river temps go from 85 degrees down to a brisk 84.5.


Actually they paid 40 guys to stand on top of the dam drinking ice cold beer and pissing in the river as often as possible. Taking it from boiling hot to piss warm.

Podunk bubbler...


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

Multispeciestamer said:


> Ive heard boats have been doing great, these guys on here just dont take the time to learn. thanks for the report and tight lines.


No I don't take the time. I wasn't out at all last weekened to see the fish cooking 1st hand. Right now I consider it a waste of time, yes there are some fish concentrated.... but they are pretty lethargic and until we get some cooler temps I will not be fishing them. Just not fun to hook a few half dead steelhead that I have to kill. I don't mind killing them, I just don't have any use for more fish right now. 

I haven't been skam fishing forever, but I will tell you I was putting my time in while you were just a kid. I was young, enthusiastic and chased them up and down the river. Now I prefer to go when conditions are better and the fish are in better shape. Its just more fun for me.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

Well said there 1000, couldn't have said it better myself. As for river fishing, I'll be in Tennesse all next week, I'll trout fish til I can't stand, or the wife can't stand it, whichever comes first.:evil:


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## RDS-1025 (Dec 1, 2008)

Multispeciestamer said:


> these guys on here just dont take the time to learn.


These guys on here have more time learning than you have alive.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

thousandcasts said:


> No, those of us who have spent years chasing fish and already know the game...and know it well, learned a long time ago to keep our mouths shut about it.


 ah this agian


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

RDS-1025 said:


> These guys on here have more time learning than you have alive.


 I didnt say i know it all, but i do know things change everyday and if your not out there then your not learning. Adapt or die as some say.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Multispeciestamer,

Your enthusiasm towards fishing is awesome. I really enjoy hearing some of your opinions and seeing some comments. I was young once too (not too long ago) and thought along the same lines as you. When these guys give you a little guff just take it and maybe read between the lines. Don't take it as they are giving you a hard time, take it as learning experiences. Some of these guys do know exactly what they are talking about, and have way more experience than you. It is a good thing to be out there a lot and you will learn more. You will also get beyond the stage of caring what anyone else thinks and just do what you do, and fish and adapt from experiences. I personally fish anywhere from 2-5 times a week depending on different factors and that how I learned, and am still learning new things every season. Some of these guys have years more experience and are still learning more and more so they are a little ahead of us younger guys. Another thing you will learn is to be a little more tight lipped (again, I've been there). A report now and then isn't bad and good for the boards, but the guys that are usually doing the best are too busy on the water. Don't take this post the wrong way, just understand where I'm coming from...listen to these guys and maybe ask there opinions and maybe they can let you in on a little something you haven't yet learned that will help you in future fishing excursions.  

As for skams and the Joe. The Joe is a warm river. Temps in the 80's and 90's the last couple weeks had to hurt the river. Temps have to be above, if not well above 70 degrees which is marginal for trout and steelhead at best. They will be pretty sluggish until they get comfortable. If I were to go I'd focus on creek mouths, or tributaries until the weather is favorable for the main river.


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## 1siena (Apr 15, 2007)

If I understand everyone....people should keep the skams they catch. Is that correct? I usually always practice catch and release, but if the mortality rate is so high, then....
Anyone ever eat a summer skam? How do they taste.

Not trying to hikack, just want to get informed to do the right thing.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't think this has anything to do with skill, you could teach a dogs ass to catch skams at creek mouths in the Summer. Everyone knows by now there is bound to at least be some skams in the river and when the water is this warm, everyone knows where they are forced to go, they can't leave, they just are stuck in 20' x 20' jail cells while *******s rip away calling themselves ethical anglers because they practice catch & release. Guys who keep what they catch, I have no problem with "done it myself many many times over the years", they know the fish will not survive, but are not being wasteful which is what really bothers me as far as anglers are concerned. Anglers really aren't the problem though, the fish are there, it's legal to fish for them so what do you expect many people to do? The biologists making this fishery the way it is are the ones at fault here. I am very supportive of the fisheries guys and all that they do, but the one thing I disagree with them on is the way they have the run timing for these skams on this river.

I have said this many many times and still stand by it, if a group like PETA or some other tree hugger group was to ever make a film of what goes on here on the Joe every Summer, it would be a very short period of time before the entire program was shut down. These fish should not be getting selected to run in June on this river, it is sick to say the least what they have to go through because of it, they could just as easily have these fish running in early Fall and it would be one of the most amazing fisheries the World has ever seen, people would come from all over to fish the runs because they would be healthy aggressively feeding steelhead in the main river larger on average than all other steelhead in the Great Lakes region. I am not saying there shouldn't be Summer steelhead designed to run in June in the Great Lakes, just not in rivers like the Joe which commonly reach temps well over 80 degrees every Summer.

One of the funniest things I have ever seen is a rule put in place at the creek mouth near my home, you are no longer allowed to use treble hooks "which doesn't effect me but silly just the same", there wasn't anyone there snagging with trebles to begin with, it's a senseless rule, the snagging/lining takes place with 4' leaders and tiny flies all day long every single day, when they could have made a rule that would have actually helped by making a maximum leader length rule, they chose to make a senseless rule banning treble hooks which weren't an issue to begin with, but to the common person this looked like they were doing something to actually help which is what they want people to think I guess.

In all honesty though, I think anglers kill a small percentage of the fish that actually die every Summer, which is where the real problem lies. I will never forget the times I have seen literally hundreds upon hundreds of dying skams floating on the surface in the section of river between Buchanan and Berrien Springs, possibly the saddest site I have ever seen watching them trying to swim below the surface but they just don't have anything left in them to make it to cold water. Ski boats are going through just slamming into them for mile long stretches, they are getting hit by props, etc... I am not kidding, it happens every hot Summer. I just hope one day the fisheries divisions wise up to this and change the run timing, which they can easily do as naturally these fish keep trying to do it on their own, this is why Indiana always gets their broodstock first thing in late May or early June to ensure they are breeding early running fish...

Many people may dislike me because of my views, which I could care less, I don't care about people, I care about the fish and the watershed.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

1siena said:


> If I understand everyone....people should keep the skams they catch. Is that correct? I usually always practice catch and release, but if the mortality rate is so high, then....
> Anyone ever eat a summer skam? How do they taste.
> 
> Not trying to hikack, just want to get informed to do the right thing.


In my opinion, yes they should be kept IF they are being caught in or near warm water. For example, people think because the fish at the creek mouths are sitting in cold water it's fine to release them, what they don't think about is the fact that the fish run directly into 80 degree water as soon as they are hooked, therefore building up lactic acid like a mofo and therefore ending any chances of surviving a release.

They taste like **** if you ask me, why I have completely quit fishing for them in these situations. The only people I know who really like the way they taste always smoke them, which is a better alternative but they still don't taste as good as a fish from colder water that isn't stressed beyond belief.

On a side note, basically every study ever done shows that releasing steelhead caught in water over around 64-66 degrees is pointless.

Enough ranting, I have said all this stuff a dozen times before, will never make a difference, it will continue on like this forever. Yeah, not having an early run of fish would kinda suck as you wouldn't be able to chase them during the Summer on a couple cold tribs of the Joe, but small price to pay for what you would gain...


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## rw65hdd (Nov 15, 2008)

KWB, Can you pm me about this creek mouth with a no treble hook rule. I have not seen anything on this and want to make sure I am not going to do something wrong this fall. We are talking about the Joe and I tend to fish several section of this river. Is the whole creek like this also. Thanks
RW


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## Fishbone (Oct 10, 2008)

Unbelievable. :lol:


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

rw65hdd said:


> KWB, Can you pm me about this creek mouth with a no treble hook rule. I have not seen anything on this and want to make sure I am not going to do something wrong this fall. We are talking about the Joe and I tend to fish several section of this river. Is the whole creek like this also. Thanks
> RW


Rangeline, pay pond, mosquito lagoon, mouth of Townsend Creek, whatever you want to call it, no treble hooks from the mouth to 100 yards out. Most senseless rule ever put in place...


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## wolvron (Apr 17, 2008)

They should just ban russians from chicago driving a cab.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

wolvron said:


> They should just ban russians from chicago driving a cab.


 
haha, no way, Michigan makes too much revenue off those guys every year in fines! Sure they aren't Polish?

Seen a young kid get popped for fishing a spinner down there the other day when I walked down there just to take a look around. I guess he had a prior for snagging though so different story I guess. Waiting for them to write me a ticket in the Fall when I am stripping streamers for Bass in my boat within the 100 yard mark since you can't use larger single hooks along with trebles...


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## wolvron (Apr 17, 2008)

amen Kory. But those guy's are some real tool's. Have they been there this year.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

wolvron said:


> amen Kory. But those guy's are some real tool's. Have they been there this year.


Haven't seen them, but I have not really been paying attention in all honesty, virtually no fish down there so hasn't been much of anyone down there from what I have seen. I have been too busy to really do any Bass fishing this Summer so have not been back there in my boat either. The only times I walked down that way was to check out the Coyote pups near the new den by my house.

Yeah, they definitely don't give a crap about anything, I think they have been busted for snagging and/or fishing it out of season the past 3 years in a row.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

KWB said:


> I don't think this has anything to do with skill, you could teach a dogs ass to catch skams at creek mouths in the Summer. Everyone knows by now there is bound to at least be some skams in the river and when the water is this warm, everyone knows where they are forced to go, they can't leave, they just are stuck in 20' x 20' jail cells while *******s rip away calling themselves ethical anglers because they practice catch & release. Guys who keep what they catch, I have no problem with "done it myself many many times over the years", they know the fish will not survive, but are not being wasteful which is what really bothers me as far as anglers are concerned. Anglers really aren't the problem though, the fish are there, it's legal to fish for them so what do you expect many people to do? The biologists making this fishery the way it is are the ones at fault here. I am very supportive of the fisheries guys and all that they do, but the one thing I disagree with them on is the way they have the run timing for these skams on this river.
> 
> I have said this many many times and still stand by it, if a group like PETA or some other tree hugger group was to ever make a film of what goes on here on the Joe every Summer, it would be a very short period of time before the entire program was shut down. These fish should not be getting selected to run in June on this river, it is sick to say the least what they have to go through because of it, they could just as easily have these fish running in early Fall and it would be one of the most amazing fisheries the World has ever seen, people would come from all over to fish the runs because they would be healthy aggressively feeding steelhead in the main river larger on average than all other steelhead in the Great Lakes region. I am not saying there shouldn't be Summer steelhead designed to run in June in the Great Lakes, just not in rivers like the Joe which commonly reach temps well over 80 degrees every Summer.
> 
> ...


Not everyone who fishes skams, on any river, is out there ripping away. Here's my limit from today (7-11-10) fishing bait under a bobber in 8' of water. I poked around some different areas with the boat and found a pod of some freshies. No ripping going on what so ever: 




























Nothing beats finding skams that are fresh and willing to bite. That whole ripping, lining thing is the easy way out--and not needed. 

The above fish were stringered up--no matter how aggressive they were and how much of an a** kicking fight they put up, these fish were basically done as soon as my net went in the water. It's irresponsible to release them. Awesome fun to catch--awesome, but it is what it is...and that means you break out the stringer when one comes to the net.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

I wasn't saying everyone is ripping them bud, just MANY of them are. Completely agree, nothing wrong with fishing for them as long as you don't release them when there is no chance of survival...

I do however wish they would have the fish running a bit later on the Joe, they could do it that way if they wanted and I honestly think it would enhance everyones experience, not just mine...

Imagine the main push of skams coming in about the same time as the King's, the water would be cool, they would stay in the main river, wouldn't lose any to death by heat, there would be fish everywhere and they would remain aggressive until the water got cold in December. Sounds like heaven to me, instead they have them running early, half the fish die to heat, and by the time the main river really cools down 95% of the fish are in the top 10 miles of river that they can ascend...

Many people would say well you have Winter fish coming in for a Fall fishery, but that doesn't really happen until October and I am sorry, but skams are a far superior fish than the Little Manistee strain when it comes to anglers enjoyment, in my humble opinion of course...


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

KWB said:


> I wasn't saying everyone is ripping them bud, just MANY of them are. Completely agree, nothing wrong with fishing for them as long as you don't release them when there is no chance of survival...
> 
> I do however wish they would have the fish running a bit later on the Joe, they could do it that way if they wanted and I honestly think it would enhance everyones experience, not just mine...
> 
> ...


Eh, I guess it depends on where you live as far as perspective is concerned. I mean, my king fishing usually starts about mid August and I fish them until the fall steelhead show up. I LOVE fishing skams, but honestly they're what I consider a "fill in" until the early kings start showing up in the northern rivers I fish. I'll make the drive down your way and have a ball with the skams, but as soon as those kings show up, I'm done skam fishing...so, June/July skam runs suit me just fine, but I can certainly see your viewpoint based on where you live, ya know?

By the way, I cut my teeth fishing for salmon and steelhead on the Joe--I used to consider it my home river when I lived a lot closer to it, so yeah...I know EXACTLY what you're talking about when it comes to what goes on at Range Line since I used to fish it quite a bit. I mean, if you catch it when a fresh batch moves in, you can find plenty of biters up in there no problem, but it lasts about a day and they get stale so fast that the bulk of the fishing there is the line and release crap. Done well there back in the day using crawlers, but like I said...those fish get stale by the next day...at least there at that spot.


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

> Imagine the main push of skams coming in about the same time as the King's, the water would be cool, they would stay in the main river, wouldn't lose any to death by heat, there would be fish everywhere and they would remain aggressive until the water got cold in December


You've probably tried a few emails to the DNR with that idea, huh? It's a good one, and makes sound sense. I don't have as much experience and knowledge of skams as alot of you SW guys, but once you fish them for a few years, you pretty much get the idea. With such limited conditions for them, it's not real hard to figure out. 

I definitely think you have a small window for a decent release on them. The best day I've had on them was in June at Tippy. I quit that day after I got my 3rd on the string, as they were just whacking bags. I broke 3 off horsin'em a bit, and missed a couple fish. This was in about a 1/2 hour and was nearly every cast. The water was about 66-67, and was to warm for me to feel good on a release.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

ausable_steelhead said:


> You've probably tried a few emails to the DNR with that idea, huh? It's a good one, and makes sound sense. I don't have as much experience and knowledge of skams as alot of you SW guys, but once you fish them for a few years, you pretty much get the idea. With such limited conditions for them, it's not real hard to figure out.
> 
> I definitely think you have a small window for a decent release on them. The best day I've had on them was in June at Tippy. I quit that day after I got my 3rd on the string, as they were just whacking bags. I broke 3 off horsin'em a bit, and missed a couple fish. This was in about a 1/2 hour and was nearly every cast. The water was about 66-67, and was to warm for me to feel good on a release.


The Michigan DNR simply puts considers the Skamania strain an inferior strain to the Little Manistee strain simply because the Skamania strain has not shown as good of a survival rate in comparison to the Little Manistee strain. Meaning the amount they stock, the one study that was done showed signs of better return rates with the Little Manistee strain, so quote "from a biologists standpoint we have to go with the Little Manistee strain." They don't really care about any other aspect than that. Which with their limited budget, one can kind of understand, even if skams do grow larger, feed more aggressively and generally fight harder...

The Indiana DNR wants those fish in their creeks and nearshore ASAP to attract anglers, they don't really seem to care about the St. Joe River fishery as much because it's not what brings in the anglers until Fall sets in, which by then they have the mass majority of skams up there anyway so it's win win for them. The problem is all the fish come from the same hatchery and broodstock, so there is no way they would ever give up their early Summer fishery near the pier heads and their creeks in order to improve the St. Joe River fishery for everyone as they already have it good so what do they care about us who would rather fish the Michigan water during the Fall.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

thousandcasts said:


> Eh, I guess it depends on where you live as far as perspective is concerned. I mean, my king fishing usually starts about mid August and I fish them until the fall steelhead show up. I LOVE fishing skams, but honestly they're what I consider a "fill in" until the early kings start showing up in the northern rivers I fish. I'll make the drive down your way and have a ball with the skams, but as soon as those kings show up, I'm done skam fishing...so, June/July skam runs suit me just fine, but I can certainly see your viewpoint based on where you live, ya know?
> 
> By the way, I cut my teeth fishing for salmon and steelhead on the Joe--I used to consider it my home river when I lived a lot closer to it, so yeah...I know EXACTLY what you're talking about when it comes to what goes on at Range Line since I used to fish it quite a bit. I mean, if you catch it when a fresh batch moves in, you can find plenty of biters up in there no problem, but it lasts about a day and they get stale so fast that the bulk of the fishing there is the line and release crap. Done well there back in the day using crawlers, but like I said...those fish get stale by the next day...at least there at that spot.


Kings are great when their fresh, we just don't really get that great of a run anymore so the steelhead mean a lot more to us. Plus I hate the crowds on the rivers up North once the Kings come in. I am probably more partial to steelhead than anything, everything about them makes me happy so definitely show a little personal preference towards them. Rangeline is actually becoming a thing of the past in a lot of ways, over the years idiots cutting all the trees down on that hillside so they can fish from the bank or whatever has allowed it to really erode, all that sediment has filled it all in so bad that it's too shallow to hold 1/10th of the fish it used to, it also forces the fish to hold out in warmer water than they used to and it's filling up with weeds "all of Lake Chapin is filling up with weeds compared to 10 years ago" so really has gone to ****e. I grew up fishing there, but anymore just like walking down there and watching the fish sit there and be fish, have no desire to fish creek mouths because I have no desire to keep any fish, not a big fish eater unless we are talking panfish so, no sense in it for me. Do fish that cove for Bass a lot, especially in the Fall when the Shad pile in there, which is what ticks me off about that new hook regulation as it makes any decent sized streamer technically illegal to use in the majority of that cove. Like to take the guy who made that law and make him sit there for a 10 hour period and see what's really going on and how dumb it is...

Oh well, guess at some point one needs to just be happy with what you got, I just hate seeing all the death and waste due to fish running a river when they have no business being in it.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

KWB said:


> I wasn't saying everyone is ripping them bud, just MANY of them are. Completely agree, nothing wrong with fishing for them as long as you don't release them when there is no chance of survival...
> 
> I do however wish they would have the fish running a bit later on the Joe, they could do it that way if they wanted and I honestly think it would enhance everyones experience, not just mine...
> 
> ...


 hold on one minute here, I cant sit here and listen this. The dnr can not change when skamanians run. The skamanian strain of steelhead witch comes from the west coast runs during certain seasonal changes. Nothing can change this no matter when they are stocked or anything. They run when conditions are right. Just as they did in there native waters. It would take years and lots of money to develop a skamanian that runs at a different time of year and it would just be some lab created species, a genetically altered species most likly sterile. You can stock west coast species in the great lakes but you cant take the west coast out the fish. Its vary hard to change years of evolution my friend and the dnr just dosnt have that kind of money to be throwing around.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

WOW, I gotta say I agree with KWB you are right on with a lot of what you said.

Multi, the DNR is totally in control of changing the fish from early runners to "later" runners. Just like what KWB said Indiana goes through extreme measure to insure early running fish. They can do the opposite to have "later" running fish. Something about the what time they collect eggs from the broodstock something like that I dont know for sure I am not a fisheries biologist. It is something along those lines. Some years in Indiana we have early running fish sometimes its later running fish the DNR can help control this. By early I mean fish that run in early june and by late I mean fish that will run in mid to late august. However they want early running fish people want something to catch in between the late spring run fish and kings. If not it would not be possible to catch fish 365 days a year in the rivers that receive skams. Yes there is a downside to the summer fishery but the economy in both states need the out of state license and tourist dollars. That is really what is all boils down too...

Heck, we get an occasional fresh skam in mid february. Skams do what they want when they want. I believe there are smart fish that wait and some not so smart that go on suicide runs. They are programmed to run early since the DNR selects that trait and keeps it going to insure a good summertime fishery. I was very surprised after learning about how warm the St. Jo got. We are having a hot summer this while last year was awesome. I do not think it is fair to blame the DNR. They are creating a great fishery around the piers as well we can not forget that. Yes I fish for skams and they do taste ok I prefer a fresh spring coho over any other salmonid species. I am not big on eating fish anyways..

On the other hand the skams would not run well at the exact same time as the kings. The kings bully the skams out of prime holding water. Actually a lot of the skams would then wait until the kings are done doing their thing to run. The skams really do not wanna compete with the kings for prime holes/runs on the river. Just like in Ohio they do not have a king run so their fall/winter run manistee strain fish run earlier since they do not have to deal with big buck kings with gnarly snaggled toothed kypes. Yes I have caught skams along with the kings mostly bigger sized fish though. I really think the skams sense or smell the soon to be laid eggs. Once the kings are in full swing the skams seems to disappear. Once the kings are gone the skams are back occupying the same holes that once held kings.

We are fortunate in the Indiana waters that unless we have an extreme heat wave the fish do pretty well. Our streams are pretty much like all "creek mouths" with cooler water. Not the prettiest water but the skams do very well here. We have springs all over the place. Last time I checked the Indiana DNR stocks about 250,000 skams in the St. Jo while around 4,000 to 5,000 actually return to Indiana a year. I may be a little off but it is somewhere in that area. I have gotta believe the majority of them stay in MI waters for the MI anglers. I think the Indiana DNR does an excellent job, IMO. 

PS. They are SKAMANIA, not skamani, or skamanians from the country of skamania :lol: or any other funny sounding name...


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

Multispeciestamer said:


> hold on one minute here, I cant sit here and listen this. The dnr can not change when skamanians run. The skamanian strain of steelhead witch comes from the west coast runs during certain seasonal changes. Nothing can change this no matter when they are stocked or anything. They run when conditions are right. Just as they did in there native waters. It would take years and lots of money to develop a skamanian that runs at a different time of year and it would just be some lab created species, a genetically altered species most likly sterile. You can stock west coast species in the great lakes but you cant take the west coast out the fish. Its vary hard to change years of evolution my friend and the dnr just dosnt have that kind of money to be throwing around.


You are wrong, not going to sit here and argue it, have a good Summer...


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

steely74 said:


> WOW, I gotta say I agree with KWB you are right on with a lot of what you said.
> 
> Multi, the DNR is totally in control of changing the fish from early runners to "later" runners. Just like what KWB said Indiana goes through extreme measure to insure early running fish. They can do the opposite to have "later" running fish. Something about the what time they collect eggs from the broodstock something like that I dont know for sure I am not a fisheries biologist. It is something along those lines. Some years in Indiana we have early running fish sometimes its later running fish the DNR can help control this. By early I mean fish that run in early june and by late I mean fish that will run in mid to late august. However they want early running fish people want something to catch in between the late spring run fish and kings. If not it would not be possible to catch fish 365 days a year in the rivers that receive skams. Yes there is a downside to the summer fishery but the economy in both states need the out of state license and tourist dollars. That is really what is all boils down too...
> 
> ...


Kings would not be an issue here on the Joe I don't think, we virtually don't get a run any longer, it wouldn't effect the steelhead on the main river what so ever. Even if we did, on big water like the Joe, there really wouldn't be any negative effect as there is more than enough room and they would just hold in secondary water just like they do on smaller water, they don't disappear when Kings come in, just move to secondary water, still just as easy to access them. Maybe on those tiny Indy creeks they get pushed out a bit more as there really is nowhere for them to go, but the Joe is an entire diferent situation. I have only fished those ditches a hand full of times, they can be fun, just not my cup of tea.

As far as Ohio, a large part of why those fish run so early is the whole lake gets so damn warm as soon as the rivers cool down they are rushing up them to find cooler water.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Another thing to consider about the timing of the runs is that those fish simply do not "home" well when it pertains to where they were planted. 

Those Indiana fish provide a fishery all up the west coast: Holland, Grand Haven, Muskegon, etc. You get some Indiana fish up here in the Grand and Muskegon rivers as well. 

KWB, It's pretty sad about the lack of king run on the Joe now. I remember when it was not only a damn good run, but you could start getting fishable numbers in August. When you used to be able to fish the wall on the south side (where the flood gates are), it was nothing to stand on that wall and catch kings, skams and LRB's in AUGUST. 

But then again, I also remember when Rangeline was deep all the way up to the mouth of the creek and when it, as well as that trib in Niles, were hush, hush and nobody knew about them! LOL!!! :lol:

I only make the run down there now for the skams, but like I said, I first started fishing for salmon and steelhead when I was 14 (I'm 40 now) and the Joe was the river I used to fish the most, so I have a lot of awesome memories and I learned a lot on that river. I most definitely still care about it for that reason alone and I certainly appreciate and applaude your passion for the fisheries there. I was born and raised in Hillsdale (where the St. Joe starts), so in one way or another, it's been a part of my life since I was a kid--whether catching carp up in the headwaters or hooking my very first salmon at age 14. I definitely respect your thoughts on the river, that's for sure.


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

Multispeciestamer said:


> hold on one minute here, I cant sit here and listen this. The dnr can not change when skamanians run. The skamanian strain of steelhead witch comes from the west coast runs during certain seasonal changes. Nothing can change this no matter when they are stocked or anything. They run when conditions are right. Just as they did in there native waters. It would take years and lots of money to develop a skamanian that runs at a different time of year and it would just be some lab created species, a genetically altered species most likly sterile. You can stock west coast species in the great lakes but you cant take the west coast out the fish. Its vary hard to change years of evolution my friend and the dnr just dosnt have that kind of money to be throwing around.


Actually, look it up. Skams are a mixture of strains. Can't quite remember which ones they are... but I am pretty sure that there is no Skamania strain of steelhead on the west coast. They were bred in captivity. The INDNR always pulls the earliest of runners to keep an early run. If they started to capture all August or Sept fish, more than likely the vast majority of the runs would occur in August in Sept.

I just looked it up really quick. The skamania strain steelhead was in fact named after the hatchery the were bred in. Its not a "native" strain to anywhere. Its a hatchery mutt.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

thousandcasts said:


> Another thing to consider about the timing of the runs is that those fish simply do not "home" well when it pertains to where they were planted.
> 
> Those Indiana fish provide a fishery all up the west coast: Holland, Grand Haven, Muskegon, etc. You get some Indiana fish up here in the Grand and Muskegon rivers as well.
> 
> ...


 
For sure, they are definitely prone to straying big time. Which can be a very good thing if you feel like working a little harder for some fish in more secluded settings.

Oh man, I remember when I was a young lad and everyday after football practice my buddy and I would wade out to the posts off the island or fish where you are talking about if water was high, just toss spoons for an hour or two in the evening and it was nothing to catch a couple LRB's, couple Kings, some steelhead and a pile of Lakers every night, oh the good ole days...

I still have not given up on the whole turbine thing in May, just at this point I think my best bet is to wait until next May and get proof some smolts are getting wasted and document how the DNR has requested they be shut down, maybe I can get some sort of media backing on it. I really don't know what else I could do without risking getting into legal trouble.

Sorta sadly, a few of my buds are moving to Denver and have asked me to come with, there is a very good chance by September I will be gone and my new steelhead waters will be the famed rivers of Oregon, Washington and Idaho, not to mention the Trout fishing throughout the Rockies. Which believe me I am not complaining, just the Joe will always have a special place in my heart. Obviously this would hinder any involvement in fighting the turbine shut downs, but maybe there will be another motivated angler to fill my role.

Take it easy,

Kory


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

quest32a said:


> Actually, look it up. Skams are a mixture of strains. Can't quite remember which ones they are... but I am pretty sure that there is no Skamania strain of steelhead on the west coast. They were bred in captivity. The INDNR always pulls the earliest of runners to keep an early run. If they started to capture all August or Sept fish, more than likely the vast majority of the runs would occur in August in Sept.
> 
> I just looked it up really quick. The skamania strain steelhead was in fact named after the hatchery the were bred in. Its not a "native" strain to anywhere. Its a hatchery mutt.


 
I believe the original broodstock were a native fish from the Washougal River in Washington, they got the name Skamania strain as the hatchery they were raised at was known as the Skamania fish hatchery. It's located in the county of Skamania in Washington. They obviously needed to run early there and that is why they evolved that way, they do not need to run early here though and thus keep trying to evolve to run later, by taking broodstock from early fish every year, the fisheries guys are able to force them to stay an early running fish, which I know you already knew that part...

I heard through the grapevine you were getting married, congratulations if that's true..


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Yea I see the point you are getting at if the kings numbers are way down the skams should not have a problem especially in such a huge river. I have caught skams in Indiana with teeth marks in them I say that are from kings. I still think that some would run up with kings buy some may feel intimidated by them. I wish I had some research to back it up but I dont. Ohio rivers are not spring fed and thats why they can not support skams. So I really do think the early run is from lack of kings. Ill see if I can find some facts or evidence to support my claim.

For the INDNR to stock that many fish in that one river I do think that it would be wise to select a later running fish just for the Jo. Since the water gets so warm. On the other hand when the MI DNR closes down the ladder which a lot of Indiana anglers despise an even fewer number of fish will return to Indiana waters. I personally do not care about the Jo on the Indiana side it is so far up from the lake I am sure the fish are all beat up and way past their prime. I can only imagine what the few zombified salmon that make it back up look like. Also, I am sure the skams that make it back are pretty beat up going through all the ladders and what not. I think the only way the Indnr would change to later running fish is if the ladder was kept open. Sure the biologists say fish stop running at 45 or 40 degrees, blah ,blah, blah. Ive seen fish running up the ladder in Indiana in the middle of January in high water and air temp was 20 degrees. Those big horny male bucks do not care about temp if the water goes up they want to run upstream.They just want fish crack at prime gravel.

KWB is right its the hatchery's name.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

steely74 said:


> Yea I see the point you are getting at if the kings numbers are way down the skams should not have a problem especially in such a huge river. I have caught skams in Indiana with teeth marks in them I say that are from kings. I still think that some would run up with kings buy some may feel intimidated by them. I wish I had some research to back it up but I dont. Ohio rivers are not spring fed and thats why they can not support skams. So I really do think the early run is from lack of kings. Ill see if I can find some facts or evidence to support my claim.
> 
> For the INDNR to stock that many fish in that one river I do think that it would be wise to select a later running fish just for the Jo. Since the water gets so warm. On the other hand when the MI DNR closes down the ladder which a lot of Indiana anglers despise an even fewer number of fish will return to Indiana waters. I personally do not care about the Jo on the Indiana side it is so far up from the lake I am sure the fish are all beat up and way past their prime. I can only imagine what the few zombified salmon that make it back up look like. Also, I am sure the skams that make it back are pretty beat up going through all the ladders and what not. I think the only way the Indnr would change to later running fish is if the ladder was kept open. Sure the biologists say fish stop running at 45 or 40 degrees, blah ,blah, blah. Ive seen fish running up the ladder in Indiana in the middle of January in high water and air temp was 20 degrees. Those big horny male bucks do not care about temp if the water goes up they want to run upstream.They just want fish crack at prime gravel.
> 
> KWB is right its the hatchery's name.


The information I have on Ohio's early running fish came straight from one of their fisheries biologists. I don't know for myself, just what I was told. I know they aren't spring fed, but Erie gets HOT in the Summer and isn't very deep, the rivers cool much faster than the lake and that cold water dumping into the lake sucks them right in. Makes no difference to me, I don't have any desire to fish there...

The ONLY time the ladder is actually closed is the month of May when the lamprey trap is in place, I know what they say, but you can rest assure, it's open for business all Winter long, just gets very little passage and the fish cam is offline. It boggles my mind how some Hoosiers can get their feathers all ruffled about that, it's as if they think the Indiana DNR would allow some major conspiracy against them to keep their fish from getting to them. It's a joint effort and both fisheries divisons work very hard to provide a quality fishery for everyone. They aren't lying when they say the fish don't use the ladders in cold water, the only use those ladders see is during the warm ups we can sometimes have in the Winter.

A lot of the reason for the beat up fish is they get that way from staying the Summer at the creek mouths, the ladders don't hurt them much at all...


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## R_T (Feb 20, 2009)

I haven't been fishing the Joe all that long. Could one of the experts way in on these 2 questions. I was out there fishing a section Saturday evening and near dark there were trillions of bugs. They looked like fog on the water. What kind of hatch is going on right now? They appeared to be white in color if that helps.

Do sucker and carp spawn this late? I saw at least 20 fish swimming on their sides all of them appeared to be suckers or carp. If i got too close they would jet away, only to reappear in the exact same spot when i went by again.

no skamania caught where i was at. It was a pretty slow day. I did manage a 20"+ cat fish on a crank bait, 6 eyes(13" to 14") and 3 smb (6" to 9") in 6 hours.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

R_T said:


> I haven't been fishing the Joe all that long. Could one of the experts way in on these 2 questions. I was out there fishing a section Saturday evening and near dark there were trillions of bugs. They looked like fog on the water. What kind of hatch is going on right now? They appeared to be white in color if that helps.
> 
> Do sucker and carp spawn this late? I saw at least 20 fish swimming on their sides all of them appeared to be suckers or carp. If i got too close they would jet away, only to reappear in the exact same spot when i went by again.
> 
> ...


Yeah the Carp and Suckers could still be spawning, but they will also brush their sides on the bottom to break loose various nymphs to eat. This could have been what you seen.

Those little bastards hatch ALL Summer long, make for a tasty meal when blowing back upstream at the end of the day!


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## RDS-1025 (Dec 1, 2008)

KWB said:


> I believe the original broodstock were a native fish from the Washougal River in Washington, they got the name Skamania strain as the hatchery they were raised at was known as the Skamania fish hatchery. It's located in the county of Skamania in Washington. They obviously needed to run early there and that is why they evolved that way, they do not need to run early here though and thus keep trying to evolve to run later, by taking broodstock from early fish every year, the fisheries guys are able to force them to stay an early running fish, which I know you already knew that...


Now that is the TRUE story of our Skamania.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

I really think that the DNR should put a limit on how many skamania can be caught and "released" in the summer. Yes there would be no way to monitor or enforce it but it would be for the "ethical" fisherman who follow the regulations. Just a thought it may be a ridiculous idea but it is just a thought...

I have heard stories of guys coming out and just beating up on skams and releasing them. Then bragging about how many fish they caught. I think that is very unethical. Go bag/kill your 3 fish and go home and call it a day. Maybe a 5 daily fish "release."


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

quest32a said:


> Actually, look it up. Skams are a mixture of strains. Can't quite remember which ones they are... but I am pretty sure that there is no Skamania strain of steelhead on the west coast. They were bred in captivity. The INDNR always pulls the earliest of runners to keep an early run. If they started to capture all August or Sept fish, more than likely the vast majority of the runs would occur in August in Sept.
> 
> I just looked it up really quick. The skamania strain steelhead was in fact named after the hatchery the were bred in. Its not a "native" strain to anywhere. Its a hatchery mutt.


 look up the Skykomish and Columbia rivers two main west coast systems that get a run of summer run steelhead.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Also Kwb is right about where the skamanian name came from. But these skamanians were not a created species, the Hatchery is just to maintain wild stocks of the summer run steelhead. Wild summer run steelhead are a threatend species. They are found through out California and up to Alaska and as far west as Russia. With the main concentration being in Washington state.


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## RDS-1025 (Dec 1, 2008)

steely74 said:


> PS. They are SKAMANIA, not skamani, or skamanians from the country of skamania :lol: or any other funny sounding name...


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## Jay Wesley (Mar 2, 2009)

FYI

The St. Joe River was 80 degrees this morning at Berrien Springs. Too hot for skamania, so hopefully they found a coldwater refuge in one of the tributaries. 

In regards to the broodstock collections, skamania are collected throughout the summer. If they were only taken in the fall, there would be greater potential to mix with the Michigan winter strain.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

Jay Wesley said:


> FYI
> 
> The St. Joe River was 80 degrees this morning at Berrien Springs. Too hot for skamania, so hopefully they found a coldwater refuge in one of the tributaries.
> 
> In regards to the broodstock collections, skamania are collected throughout the summer. If they were only taken in the fall, there would be greater potential to mix with the Michigan winter strain.


What studies have been to done to show a correlation between the skams running later and spawning later?

This must be something new as far as collecting broodstock later in the Summer? Years ago they always talked about how they wanted the earliest fish for reasons I have already stated in other posts.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> Also Kwb is right about where the skamanian name came from. But these skamanians were not a created species, the Hatchery is just to maintain wild stocks of the summer run steelhead. Wild summer run steelhead are a threatend species. They are found through out California and up to Alaska and as far west as Russia. With the main concentration being in Washington state.



Wrong once again...

The skamania is from the Washougal river a trib of the Columbia and they bred that Washougal river strain with the Klickitat river strain to create what many consider a designer steelhead. SKAMANIA is the name of the hatchery where they were designed or they would be called a Washougal strain of steelhead, but they are not. They named them after the hatchery. Just like Chambers Creek, Ganaraska, Little Manistee all steelhead get their names from where they originally come from. Skamania is easier than Washougal+Klickitat river strain dont you think?

Yes if you look at natural west coast summer steelhead they look like skamania because they are part of the same fish. Once again the mix of these two strains resulted in early running fish.

Now I hope we can end this part of the discussion.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

steely74 said:


> Wrong once again...
> 
> The skamania is from the Washougal river a trib of the Columbia and they bred that Washougal river strain with the Klickitat river strain to create what many consider a designer steelhead. SKAMANIA is the name of the hatchery where they were designed or they would be called a Washougal strain of steelhead, but they are not. They named them after the hatchery. Just like Chambers Creek, Ganaraska, Little Manistee all steelhead get their names from where they originally come from. Skamania is easier than Washougal+Klickitat river strain dont you think?
> 
> ...


 Interesting do have a reference for this information, as i would like to read it. And in this case they just breed two summer steelhead from different rivers. Who is to say the populations were not all ready mixxed as we all know skamania/summer steelhead will wonder and go up different rivers. 

What I am saying is they may have took two fish from different rivers but there biological make up is the same.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Jay Wesley said:


> FYI
> 
> The St. Joe River was 80 degrees this morning at Berrien Springs. Too hot for skamania, so hopefully they found a coldwater refuge in one of the tributaries.
> 
> In regards to the broodstock collections, skamania are collected throughout the summer. If they were only taken in the fall, there would be greater potential to mix with the Michigan winter strain.


 Thanks jay, and I seen the IN Dnr down there taking fish out everyday like a few weeks ago. The one day they took like 100 some skams in a few hours from what I here.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

KWB said:


> What studies have been to done to show a correlation between the skams running later and spawning later?
> 
> This must be something new as far as collecting broodstock later in the Summer? Years ago they always talked about how they wanted the earliest fish for reasons I have already stated in other posts.


 The skams collected during this time of year dont have fully mature eggs/milt yet. If you've noticed any skam you catch during the summer the egg sacks are tiny like mico beads.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> Interesting do have a reference for this information, as i would like to read it. And in this case they just breed two summer steelhead from different rivers. Who is to say the populations were not all ready mixxed as we all know skamania/summer steelhead will wonder and go up different rivers.
> 
> What I am saying is they may have took two fish from different rivers but there biological make up is the same.


Not surprising but wrong once again kid... 

You were arguing that skams were not a hatchery breed as Quest stated but he was right on. I highly doubt the mod of a site would post wrong info. It was 2 different strains of steelhead from 2 different rivers. Keep arguing your wrong point of view all you want you just lose credibility. Not trying to be a jerk just telling you the truth. I actually like your reports and such just do some research before posting next time. I may be wrong but I looked up a lot of this stuff a while ago... I was curious and informed myself I suggest you do the same if you want to learn more.


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

steely74 said:


> Not surprising but wrong once again kid...
> 
> You were arguing that skams were not a hatchery breed as Quest stated but he was right on. I highly doubt the mod of a site would post wrong info. .


Haha, I have been wrong before but I do appreciate the vote of confidence. I was pretty sure on this one though.

The web is a wonderful, wonderful thing. With about a half an hour you can really find out all you need to know straight from different states DNR's mouth. 

I also must comment. KWB and I don't always agree on everything, but his opinion is normally well informed and based on facts. He has spent more time on the Joe in the past 20 years than anyone I know, and that includes a number of guides. He has seen about everything down there.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

Multispeciestamer said:


> The skams collected during this time of year dont have fully mature eggs/milt yet. If you've noticed any skam you catch during the summer the egg sacks are tiny like mico beads.


Ok big guy...

You just keep spewing information we already know "and I don't really understand the reasoning for this latest statement", I am pleased that you are excited about fishing and have a passion for it, I truly am, but please understand, everything you are saying that is true, we learned years ago. I am not trying to bash you as I find it extremely cool a young lad such as yourself is so stoked about fishing. That is the type of **** I live to see...

I know EXACTLY what goes on with the Skamania program, I know what the eggs look like, I have seen where the Skamania live until Spring when they are then milked. They ARE selectively bread to ensure they continue to be an early running fish, it's the basis for the entire program. If they didn't do this, they WOULD become a Fall running fish within a decade. Years ago, I was JUST like you, and largely in part still am, no one person ever knows it all and I am not some genius, but the stuff I am saying here, I am saying because I was passionate enough like yourself to seek out the information by reading, studying and hounding the **** out of fisheries guys. I try VERY hard to not spit out stuff I am not 100% on. The St. Joseph River has been my backyard playground my entire life and steelhead are my life, period, I wake up each day thinking about them and go to sleep doing the same thing. I am the type of guy who used to work a double as a first mate on Lake Michigan and rush home to sneak in an hour or so of steelhead fishing even though I had to be waking up 4-5 hours from the time I would get done fishing to go fishing again. Just like you said, you don't learn unless you are out there, and on the water experience is priceless, but so is listening to others who have been there done that, even then, they aren't always dead on, but you can still almost always take something away from listening to them. I have been VERY fortunate to have a Family whom doesn't fish, but fully supported me fishing all the damn time, without that I wouldn't have been able to learn the things I have and continue to strive to learn. I am not trying to sound like I know it all about skams or the Joe as I don't and never will, just listen to the things you are hearing here as most of it is very useful information if you are as passionate as you seem to be. Between all of us talking here, there is dozens of years of experience and that is priceless. I am sure there are things you ahve experienced we could learn from as well, what is great about these forums, possibly the only good thing about them as many of us don't care for the "report" aspect of them, but that's another story. I guess basically what I am trying to say is, I am not trying to sound special here or like the God of the Joe, just a petty steelhead bum scratching his way through life, but one whom has been fortunate enough to fish enough to learn a thing or two, hell even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then. The past year I have not gotten to fish that much, largely in part because I needed to get my **** together so I could journey West to chase native steelhead, stoked about that to say the least...

As far as Skams being taken throughout the Summer, I can tell you I know of a few years for sure, that was NOT the case, and I would venture to say if they are getting broodstock later in the year, they are getting them up near the hatchery in Indiana and even though they are getting them later, they are still early running fish.

To provide just a little more information, Indiana keeps a set amount of Skamania strain steelhead each year for broodstock, last year I know for a FACT they got all of them from Berrien the first couple weeks of June. The years they take them later I was told it's ONLY because they have not had enough of a run to be able to get their quota early on, their goal each and every year is to get the earliest running fish they can, period. Straight from the IDNR's mouths...


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

steely74 said:


> Wrong once again...
> 
> The skamania is from the Washougal river a trib of the Columbia and they bred that Washougal river strain with the Klickitat river strain to create what many consider a designer steelhead. SKAMANIA is the name of the hatchery where they were designed or they would be called a Washougal strain of steelhead, but they are not. They named them after the hatchery. Just like Chambers Creek, Ganaraska, Little Manistee all steelhead get their names from where they originally come from. Skamania is easier than Washougal+Klickitat river strain dont you think?
> 
> ...


Sweet man, I couldn't remember where the other strain of fish was from, knew the one was from the Washougal though.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

steely74 said:


> I have heard stories of guys coming out and just beating up on skams and releasing them. Then bragging about how many fish they caught. I think that is very unethical. Go bag/kill your 3 fish and go home and call it a day.


I'll put this nicely--it's flat out irresponsible is what it is. The guys doing that are complete idiots who have no idea how to fish. Oh sure, they can hook plenty, BUT knowing how to fish *isn't* just about pounding up numbers--it's also knowing and understanding the species that you target. A rookie gets a free pass because they're still in the learning mode, but these so called legends in their own mind who go lining up numbers and then "releasing" a fish that is already terminal by the time it hits the net are just as clueless as some guy starting out. Except, like I said, the rookie doesn't know any better and he's trying to learn. When you're someone who's pulling the rack and release and then it's pats on the back and b*** Jobs for everybody afterwards, then that's just being an idiot.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

LOL, no prob guys...

Both rivers are tribs of the Columbia which is out of this mind big. Once they each establish their own run of wild fish they are a different strain. Just like now there is claimed to be a Big Man "strain" of wild chinook that run earlier than the stocked kings...

PS I will admit I did not know they were tribs of the same river I just looked that up lol..


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

quest32a said:


> I also must comment. KWB and I don't always agree on everything, but his opinion is normally well informed and based on facts. He has spent more time on the Joe in the past 20 years than anyone I know, and that includes a number of guides. He has seen about everything down there.


Thanks buddy, it is humbling to think about just how lucky I have been, sadly it wasn't until recently these things really began to sink in. Ahhh the part of our lives we have to "grow up" can be very humbling...


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

steely74 said:


> PS I will admit I did not know they were tribs of the same river I just looked that up lol..


Haha, the majority of everything that you don't just learn with on the water experience I have learned by "just looking it up", the internet is a great thing to learn from in reality, yeah it has kind of ruined fishing in many ways, but at the same time the amount of knowledge out there about steelhead and fishing for them is amazing, especially the things we can learn from eachother...

Man I need to go fishing, sitting in an office talking about it all day has my blood flowing. Off to chase some smallies...


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

steely74 said:


> Just like now there is claimed to be a Big Man "strain" of wild chinook that run earlier than the stocked kings.


Yes, I believe their latin name is Earlyrunnus Lotsafunnus. Since it's been scientifically proven that at least 75% of the Big M's salmon are wild, you can basically state that most of the run comes in early...or at least earlier than in other rivers. (*studies proved that only 1 in 5 adults returning to the Big M are of hatchery origin) 

The Little M has those fish that come up in June and July--again, a unique type of chinook. 

The Muskegon has a huge amount of wild fish as well, but they're programmed to spawn later since the Mo's water temps are still very high when other rivers like the Big M are going full bore. Hell, it can be mid September and those Muskegon fish are still out in 150' of water.

Too many people base the state of the Big M run by what's going on at Tippy Dam. Truth is, the bulk of fish in that system are already in the river long before they finally show up at Tippy. Last year was a prime example. The biggest push of fish came in at the end of August, but they stayed below High Bridge for at least two or three weeks. 

Point being, I'm a firm believer that every river in this state that has natural reproduction has their own strain--rather, they programmed specifically by that river and when their parents made the spawning run. If those fish are programmed to come in at the first bit of favorable conditions in late August, then so are the off spring.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

thousandcasts said:


> I'll put this nicely--it's flat out irresponsible is what it is. The guys doing that are complete idiots who have no idea how to fish. Oh sure, they can hook plenty, BUT knowing how to fish *isn't* just about pounding up numbers--it's also knowing and understanding the species that you target. A rookie gets a free pass because they're still in the learning mode, but these so called legends in their own mind who go lining up numbers and then "releasing" a fish that is already terminal by the time it hits the net are just as clueless as some guy starting out. Except, like I said, the rookie doesn't know any better and he's trying to learn. When you're someone who's pulling the rack and release and then it's pats on the back and b*** Jobs for everybody afterwards, then that's just being an idiot.


Yeah this was a big heated debate on another site. Some guys from OH beat up on a bunch of skams and a local fisherman called them out on it and he was extremely angry about the whole ordeal. He went out kept his 3 fish and bad mouthed the guys who caught are released a bunch of them. I heard some of the details from some fishing buddies that knows one of the parties. I guess the DNR was there and watched them release the fish so they did not feel they were doing anything wrong. I guess if they didnt know any better than you can not blame them. I believe they did and needed to get their fix until the runs starts in OH. 

By the way on another note I really enjoyed fishing the Lake Erie tribs in Ohio. The scenery is beautiful. They have these huge granite cliff walls and many different rock structures that line the river. Pretty neat I definitely recommend the trip to anyone who desires to fish another state. I will also say they are not as heavy flowing as MI rivers. Lots of frog water which is good in winter. 

I do plan on making a trip to a NW trib soon. I havent fished LM or its tribs north of Holland, MI and am dying to do so. I have ice fished further up north quite a few years ago.


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## Jay Wesley (Mar 2, 2009)

KWB said:


> What studies have been to done to show a correlation between the skams running later and spawning later?
> 
> This must be something new as far as collecting broodstock later in the Summer? Years ago they always talked about how they wanted the earliest fish for reasons I have already stated in other posts.


Not aware of any studies off the top of my head. Many skamania males and females have to be collected to get a good broodstock for spawning (500-1000 perhaps more). Indiana tries to get as many as they can in early summer (June and July) to make sure that they are getting early run fish. This summer, it has been real slow but they did get a few just before the 4th of July out of Berrien Springs. They still have many to go, so they will be collecting fish well into August and perhaps September now. When you take fish in September there is a possibilty that it could be an early run Lilttle Manistee Strain. 

Anyway, it is really tough to get fish when you want. It is mother nature and very hard to predict.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

Jay Wesley said:


> Not aware of any studies off the top of my head. Many skamania males and females have to be collected to get a good broodstock for spawning (500-1000 perhaps more). Indiana tries to get as many as they can in early summer (June and July) to make sure that they are getting early run fish. This summer, it has been real slow but they did get a few just before the 4th of July out of Berrien Springs. They still have many to go, so they will be collecting fish well into August and perhaps September now. When you take fish in September there is a possibilty that it could be an early run Lilttle Manistee Strain.
> 
> Anyway, it is really tough to get fish when you want. It is mother nature and very hard to predict.


Yeah, that's exactly what I have always been told, should have added that there is many years where they cannot get them early.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

steely74 said:


> Yeah this was a big heated debate on another site. Some guys from OH beat up on a bunch of skams and a local fisherman called them out on it and he was extremely angry about the whole ordeal. He went out kept his 3 fish and bad mouthed the guys who caught are released a bunch of them. I heard some of the details from some fishing buddies that knows one of the parties. I guess the DNR was there and watched them release the fish so they did not feel they were doing anything wrong. I guess if they didnt know any better than you can not blame them. I believe they did and needed to get their fix until the runs starts in OH.
> 
> By the way on another note I really enjoyed fishing the Lake Erie tribs in Ohio. The scenery is beautiful. They have these huge granite cliff walls and many different rock structures that line the river. Pretty neat I definitely recommend the trip to anyone who desires to fish another state. I will also say they are not as heavy flowing as MI rivers. Lots of frog water which is good in winter.
> 
> I do plan on making a trip to a NW trib soon. I havent fished LM or its tribs north of Holland, MI and am dying to do so. I have ice fished further up north quite a few years ago.


Those Ohio guys may have done so, but there is a group of locals whom do it 7 days a week all Summer long, so some guys coming from Ohio and doing it for a few days pales in comparison...

I definitely agree, some very beautiful places in the Erie tribs from photos I have seen, someday I will likely make the journey, just for me, if I am going to travel to fish for steelhead, I want to go West...


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## wolvron (Apr 17, 2008)

I wish I could fish 7 days a week. I can hardly fish the weekends.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

wolvron said:


> I wish I could fish 7 days a week. I can hardly fish the weekends.


Tell me about it, I was happy as a fat kid in a candy store getting a couple hours of chasing Smallies in tonight...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

steely74 said:


> Not surprising but wrong once again kid...
> 
> You were arguing that skams were not a hatchery breed as Quest stated but he was right on. I highly doubt the mod of a site would post wrong info. It was 2 different strains of steelhead from 2 different rivers. Keep arguing your wrong point of view all you want you just lose credibility. Not trying to be a jerk just telling you the truth. I actually like your reports and such just do some research before posting next time. I may be wrong but I looked up a lot of this stuff a while ago... I was curious and informed myself I suggest you do the same if you want to learn more.


I am sorry but the information you quoted was not wrong. 

I am aware that all skams are hatchery breed stocked fish, just some times i get skams and summer runs messed up. My head is always swirling around  and i cant always write down what i am thinking. 

Use the term "strain" sparingly as steelhead are steelhead no matter what river they run up they all mix in the greater body of water they live in. They eat the same foods. Share the same habitat. Only to split during spawning time then rejoin after spawing is done.

All I do is research that is why I wanted to read where you got your information from.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

wolvron said:


> I wish I could fish 7 days a week. I can hardly fish the weekends.


kwb is talking about Ale :cwm27:


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Multispeciestamer said:


> I am sorry but the information you quoted was not wrong.
> 
> I am aware that all skams are hatchery breed stocked fish, just some times i get skams and summer runs messed up. My head is always swirling around  and i cant always write down what i am thinking.
> 
> ...


Your argument was that the skamania was not created when it was and their run timing can not be manipulated. You now realize you were wrong on both occasions. Its ok to be wrong once in a while we all make mistakes... No harm done... New subject please!


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

steely74 said:


> Your argument was that the skamania was not created when it was and their run timing can not be manipulated. You now realize you were wrong on both occasions. Its ok to be wrong once in a while we all make mistakes... No harm done... New subject please!


agreed any one been hitting any creekmouths. I fished one a few days ago caught some bluegills and suckers was fun to break in my new rod.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdG09S...Skamania%20SummerSteelhead(E.F.)-Hatchery.doc

You want the lowdown on the Skamania strain of steelhead, here you go...


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

Multispeciestamer said:


> kwb is talking about Ale :cwm27:


No, not whom I am talking about. I don't even know whom "Ale" is...


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## samsteel (Oct 6, 2008)

KWB said:


> http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdG09S...Skamania%20SummerSteelhead(E.F.)-Hatchery.doc
> 
> You want the lowdown on the Skamania strain of steelhead, here you go...


cool link....I know some pier rats that think skamania is a cross breed of coho/steelhead. one of my buddies swears that steelhead are derived from a cross breed of kings/rainbow trout. Gotta love the experts out there.


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

samsteel said:


> cool link....I know some pier rats that think skamania is a cross breed of coho/steelhead. one of my buddies swears that steelhead are derived from a cross breed of kings/rainbow trout. Gotta love the experts out there.


 
Oh yeah, you hear stuff like that all the time...

The best one I have ever heard was one day sitting on the pier in St. Joe, this middle aged guy sitting next to me fishing shrimp under a float looks at me and says, "ya know, this shrimp is so damned expensive I think I just might try and figure out how I can trap these things out of the lake here so I don't have to buy them" my buddy and I just looked at eachother, was all we could do to keep a straight face...


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

Awesome link KWB...

I am relieved I was right about the 2 rivers or I would have felt pretty dumb LOL :lol:...

Yeah I have long heard the cross between steel and kings and the guys who believe that are firm in their belief. FYI, if you ever meet one of those guys on the water just let them believe they are right. I realized it is often not worth it. :yikes:

The shrimp thing OMG that is hilarious, yeah you do gotta love the "experts" LOL


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## RAD FISH (Oct 17, 2006)

:: One of my favorites that I get asked by tourist on the pier and 6st is, did you catch them here? I always say no these are my pet fish i take them every where.:lol:


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

KWB said:


> No, not whom I am talking about. I don't even know whom "Ale" is...


 A local angler,and my friend who fish's said creek and river and releases all his steelhead no matter how warm.


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## steely74 (Feb 9, 2010)

RAD FISH said:


> :: One of my favorites that I get asked by tourist on the pier and 6st is, did you catch them here? I always say no these are my pet fish i take them every where.:lol:


That is classic LOL :lol:


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## KWB (Mar 1, 2009)

Multispeciestamer said:


> A local angler,and my friend who fish's said creek and river and releases all his steelhead no matter how warm.


 
He wouldn't of happened to get popped by the CO for foul hooking fish with a spinner the other day would he have?

Seen a kid about your age get a ticket sometime last week when I took a walk down there, he lived somewhere close by...


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## samsteel (Oct 6, 2008)

RAD FISH said:


> :: One of my favorites that I get asked by tourist on the pier and 6st is, did you catch them here? I always say no these are my pet fish i take them every where.:lol:


when the tourists ask what kind of fish they are, we give any answer except what the fish actually is.....tilapia, grouper, etc....the game is, if if any of us cracks a smile or has anything except a stone serious face, then he has to carry all the fish on the stringer out to the parking lot. Great game to play with your buddies, at least that's what I thought, until a few of us caught about 50lbs worth of kings off the pier and when some old lady asked us what they were and my buddy busted out with "skin rockets" well, i just couldnt keep it together and about p*ssed my pants, tough day to lose the game.


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