# DO NOT BUY T/C Encore......



## woodencanoe

Yep,as soon as I explained to him what started happening he knew what was wrong. I had been trying differant loads also. Some HOT loads with 3 triple 7 pellets. I bought some of the wad cutter stuff from him. He told me just to make sure I run alot of regular bore cleaner thru after using the wad cutter. Get all that out of the barrel to or it will eat it to. Kinda gotta rinse it out with the regular cleaner.


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## ENCORE

Nimrod said:


> Or the pro hunter. My Encore is only 3 years old and 2 other guys just got the pro hunter and none of us are satisfied with the groups we get. :yikes:We have been shooting MLs since we were kids. I have tried pellets, loose powders, all kinds of sabots/bullets. I have burned up 5#s of all different powders:rant:! Point of impact changes but I still have fliers!! I can't stand having a gun I can't shoot. I have cut the QLA off, tried small rifle primers, a hinge pin bolt. Thats it I'm DONE!!!!!!!!
> 
> I will be going to On Target to trade it for a Knight Big Horn. I had a Knight before and on a good day I have shot a 3" group with it! Boy what a mistake it was to get rid of that gun.
> 
> :rant:I WILL NEVER EVER RECOMMEND ANY T/C PRODUCTS TO ANY ONE!!!!!


Wow! I'm another that has never heard of anyone having this much of problem with an Encore. But, those that I know that have had problems similar to these have almost all had one thing in common. The scope or mounts.
Since you've been shooting a muzz for so long, it can be assumed that you swab the barrel between each shot and let the barrel cool between.
*Have you taken the scope off the rifle and checked for groups with just the open sights?* This is the one way that the scope can be ruled out. _Scopes can and do go bad._
Go back to the basics and try it again, unless you've just had enough.
Before I'd give up on the rifle, I'd take the scope and mounts off, load it with 100 grs of your preference, insert a 250 gr. Shockwave SUPER GLIDE and shoot it. Shorten up your range distance and check your groups.
If you're still having the same problems, contact T/C. Might I suggest that when or if you contact T/C, that you provide them with as much information as possible concerning what your attempts and/or trials have been.
Like Swamp, my Encore is a tack driver. I use 130 grs. of Pyrodex (pellets), 209 primer and the 250gr. Shockwave SUPER GLIDE. A *REPAIRED* Simmons Atec, 2.8x10 for a scope. The only other modification that the rifle has, is a trigger job by Mike Bellm http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=124
My *REPAIRED* scope had caused me some problems prior to its repair that might have been similar to yours. It would group then I'd start having flyers and the group would open up. I'd adjust the scope and after adjustment, it would start to group again. Then flyers started right up. Someplace around here I have the repair order from Simmons. Just about all the insides of the scope were replaced. 
Confidence in your rifle has everything to do with how well you can shoot it. Take the scope and mounts off and give it a try. If that doesn't work and you've had enough, it appears that there's a number of hunters here that will take it off your hands.
Good luck with your decision.


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## Rico

No complaints from me either. 
My Encore only gets mad when I don't feed her.


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## Nimrod

Scope mounts were checked and checked again, I even tried another scope as mentioned earlier. The scope is a Burris 3x9 ballistic plex. Even when it was new I wasn't impressed with it's performance.

When it rains it pours, I have talked to people I personally know(5) that have had problems getting groups, tried and tried to no avail. Pm me if any one is board and wants Mine.


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## outdoor junkie

I bought a pro hunter and had it for around six months and sold it to my cousin. I didn't think the gun was worth a damn! I could have saved hundreds of dollars and just bought the CVA I have now and can drive tacks at 100 yards. Can't wait to get it out in 4 more days. Good luck with whatever gun you decide to go with.


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## Swamp Monster

Have you cleaned it with plastic (wad) solvent? Worth a try anyway.


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## weatherby

Swamp Monster said:


> Have you cleaned it with plastic (wad) solvent? Worth a try anyway.



Where is a good place to order it from? What is the best brand you have found?


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## glockman55

I've got one of the first years Encores and can shoot it almost as good as my 7MM. Mag. 1.5" groups @ 100yds. all day. The load I'm using now is 130 gr. pyrodex pellets and 300 gr. Shock Wave sabots. and the other load I shoot better is 100 gr. powder with 245 gr. hornady, 1" to 1.5" groups...HuMMMMM. might not be the gun?:lol:


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## Swamp Monster

weatherby said:


> Where is a good place to order it from? What is the best brand you have found?


Butch's Bore Shine and Choke tube cleaner
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=679528&t=11082005

Both can be purchased through Midway but many places carry Butch's.

I clean my muzzleloader with TC White's #13 black powder solvent at the range between each and every shot but I use the Butch's for the final cleaning at home just for the plastic fouling. Use it slug guns as well. Have used Choke tube cleaner as well and it works perfectly for the job....a good cleaner all around. I have not used that brand I posted a link to but would not hesitate to use it. 
New guns with rough bores, plastic fouling can be pretty extreme. And some sabots are "softer" than others. My Rem 700mls, after hundreds of shots has a super smooth bore so plastic fouling is very minimal it seems. It really shot better and better the more I shot it in the beginning. The T/C is not as smooth and is a bit tighter of bore. in defense of the T/C, it does not have nearly has many shots thru it yet. Both are very accurate.


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## woodencanoe

The stuff I bought from Dick William's shop is [Brownells shotgun wad solvent] 4 oz. $9.25 afew years ago. It's a real bright red fluid. Web site on bottle WWW.Brownells.com


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## KalamazooKid

Sighted in at 100 yards, 2 - 50 grain Pyro Pellets, 250 grain Shockwaves, Leupold VXII (2-7), *it's a tack driver*. With 5 kills so far with this gun, I couldn't be happier!


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## GettinBucky

I'm very happy with mine.... T/C Encore Pro Hunter stainless w/thumbhole stock. Nikon 3x9 omega scope BDC redicle. 3 pyrodex pellets and Powerbelt 245 grain aero tip bullets. Absolute tack driver.....bought it last year...3kills so far!


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## Rootsy

Brownell's now offers a sabot solvent for your inlines. $9 and change

P/N 083-000-011


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## bowhunting48060

I'm very disappointed in my Pro Hunter. I ordered a Savage ML II stainless/thumbhole today.


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## weatherby

I hope you guys are right and my pro hunter is either me or something small and not the gun. I cannot get mine to group at all  Back to the range tomorrow to see if we can put 2 and 2 togther from todays range findings and get something to work out for at least this year


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## bowhunting48060

I just sold my Pro hunter!


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## jamjet

I am in the market for a new ML. Savage or Pro Hunter....leaning towards the Pro Hunter.....

The following post was in answer to a gentleman who just purchased a Pro Hunter and was curious as to what others thought of the gun.
The post suggest that some Pro Hunters are prone to fouling thus accuracy issues which can be resolved by the use of the .25acp breech plug.

I wouldnt know as I do not own one.....any comments?

Does anyone have any experience with loss of accuracy when changing barrels? Meaning if you change to a barrel that was previously sighted in (no scope change obviously) do you need to make a trip to the range? I would imagine some degradation in accuracy and prudence would dictate a trip to the range anyway....just curious

Thanks
Joe

------------------------------------------------------------------------

10-14-2007, 07:06 PM 
ART
Guide

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Near Jackson
Posts: 249 Photos: 1


Expect pretty decent accuracy, far better than a shotgun.
I use 250 grain shockwaves with 90 grains of 777 powder. Your scope is regulated for 150 grains of powder.
I have killed several deer with this bullet.
If you get too much fouling into the breech area of your rifle(some do, some don't) or lots of fliers/big groups-two to three inches- consider the precision rifle .25acp breech plug.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## ENCORE

Of those of you that are having problems, contacted T/C ?
http://www.tcarms.com/customerService/contact.php


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## Swamp Monster

Jam,
I don't think the .25acp breech plug conversion is necessary but it doesn't hurt. I have not done it to my Encore but I don't have any accuracy issues. The barrell does foul but afterall it's a muzzleloader. I clean between every shot....and I do it the same between every shot. Consistancy is the key. A lot of times accuracy issues can be traced to inconsistancy's in loading and cleaning or inconsistancy's in shooting the gun off the bench....like shotguns, these need to be benched a little differently than a rifle. (nobody likes to accept human error ofcourse). Sometimes you just get a rogue gun! Hey it happens...happens to every manufacture from time to time. hence the reason a few of us have mentioned contacting TC. Give this great company a chance to address the issue. Easier to just complain online though and we all do it.

Back to the fouling.....The type of 209 primer can have an effect, both on fouling and on accuracy. Experimenting is key. The type of powder can affect fouling ofcourse. T7, though supposedly cleaner has had issues with the crud ring when using the pellets. Some of the newer 209's supposedly eliminate this. 

These guns are easy to shoot and it may seem confusing but it's really not. It just takes time to find the right primer/powder/bullet combo. Sometimes this takes awhile, other times it doesn't. My Encore likes numerous loads but some guns can be finicky by nature....doesn't mean it's a bad gun.

As for changing barrels, I have not seen any accuracy issues at all. Point of Impact has not changed at all. Will it be this way 15 years from now? Time will tell but so far so good.


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## weatherby

I just did. Thanks



ENCORE said:


> Of those of you that are having problems, contacted T/C ?
> http://www.tcarms.com/customerService/contact.php


When you guys are talkin crud ring. Are you talkin about a ring that goes around the interior of the barrel where the pellets were before burning or on the actual breech plug?


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## Swamp Monster

weatherby said:


> I just did. Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> When you guys are talkin crud ring. Are you talkin about a ring that goes around the interior of the barrel where the pellets were the peelts were before burning or on the actual breech plug?



On the inside of the barrel where the sabot meets the pellets. You can feel this ring when loading as sometimes it will give you a false feeling that your sabot is seated but in actuality it is just off the pellets and not seated. It continues to get worse without cleaning. And sometimes it takes a bit of cleaning. Supposedly the newer "cleaner" primers help alleviate this. And it usually just happens with Triple 7 pellets. I use regular pyrodex pellets and don't have this issue. I get a little fouling build up on the breech, but nothing that causes an issue. 


Let us know how TC handles your questions. I have heard nothing but good things from their customer service.


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## weatherby

So the crud ring will only happen with the 777 pellets and not 777 loose power, correct? I will keep you guys posted because I really want this gun to work out for me. I already have a 25acp breech plug, but they didn't drill the hole deep enough so i have to send it back and won't get it back in time for this season so i do have some light at the end of the tunnel for next year


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## Rootsy

My traditional caplock White Mountain Carbine gets a HECKUVA crud ring with loose 777 shooting maxi's.


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## ENCORE

The "crud ring" has happened to me, although not extreme, using Pyrodex (pellets) but I had two different primers, Remington 209 muzz and Winchester 209 muzz. I found that Winchester caused the ring to materialize in my rifle somewhat quicker. Makes no difference in the accuracy of the rifle with either primer though through a clean bore. Although, as Swamp was stating, I also while shooting from the bench clean between each shot and if the weather's warm, always let the barrel cool. Letting the barrel cool, usually means that I get up off my butt and walk down to the target instead of riding on the gator:lol:.


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## jamjet

Swamp thanks for the info

Reading Bellm site today ( bellmtcs.com ) has helped me make up my mind.
Th Pro Hunter

Thanks for the comments


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## Nimrod

I just put the same scope on my sons American Knight ML and am headed out to do some shooting.


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## Swamp Monster

Nimrod said:


> I just put the same scope on my sons American Knight ML and am headed out to do some shooting.


Have fun taking it apart to clean 

On a serious not, have you contacted TC yet?


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## bowhunting48060

I was really geeked when I bought my Pro Hunter. But many range sessions later...every type of powder/bullet combo known to man kind it was still being outshot by my 700ml...I just expected more. I'm a die hard muzzleloader addict and I was really disappointed in the Pro Hunter. 

777 loose gave me a HORRIBLE crud ring even with 777 primers...going to a .25 acp conversion was my plan but it struck me funny that a expensive gun like that shouldnt need all these mods. So I threw in the towel. Now I get to play with smokeless Friday :evilsmile

I guess I expected too much from a $800 + gun :sad: Oh well, maybe I got a bad one...I dunno.


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## jamjet

Bow,
Your right.....for 800 bones I would expect above average!
Out of curiosity have you contacted T/C?
Do you think you got a rogue gun?

As I posted earlier I am planning on the Pro Hunter. Reading Bellm site today was very helpful.

You bring up the best point of all...its a pricey gun, ecpectations should be hi. You pay for what you get! There are more positive remarks on this gun than negative

I am still planning on the Pro Hunter.....and if I do by chance get a rogue gun as Swamp mentioned, will T/C come through.....hence my question as to contacting T/C.
Thanks


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## weatherby

OK here is my 2 cents, but remember muzzleloadin starts Friday and mine will be in the gun safe for now so I may be bias. Bellham's did a trigger job on mine as well as a oversized barrel pin for it and a special tape was bought to put over the ends on the barrel pin so it will not be able to slide side to side. I Put leupold base and rings on it as well as a VX2 scope and a 25 acp conversion was added as well so i have about $1200 into this gun as it sits. I have bought about $200 in different types of powder/bullet combos to try and my best so far is 5" at 50 yards which would have worked for me for now except the bullet was discontinued and now I'm at about 8". That is the furthest i have shot because I need to hit the target to get a idea of my group size. My next step is to send the scope in to get checked out and then the barrel for a piece of mind if i get the scope back and still can't hit anything.

One conclusion I have to come to is todays muzzleloaders have tighter tolerences then the one's of past years and 1 thing you must do is clean the muzzleloader between EVERY shot at the range with a spit patch to get rid of the crud ring to get a perfect seated bullet every time. That is where I have failed my gun. I HOPE. I was spoiled by the older muzzleloaders that always had a little bit of leway so you could get a couple of shots off before cleaning the gun. I have talked to lots of guys and that is what every one preaches to me who are really big into their muzzleloader accuracy


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## bowhunting48060

I called them......I talked to some girl and she said that 3" groups at 100 are the norm, she never heard of a crud ring and so on which left me feeling like I just talked to someone at Nextel. A good friend of mine is a Encore nut and he said customer service has taken a nose dive at T/C. I have high hopes for the new Savage bu you never know. I still have my 700ML to take care of biz!

Good luck with th PH jamjet

bh48060


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## Munsterlndr

weatherby said:


> OK here is my 2 cents, but remember muzzleloadin starts Friday and mine will be in the gun safe for now so I may be bias. Bellham's did a trigger job on mine as well as a oversized barrel pin for it and a special tape was bought to put over the ends on the barrel pin so it will not be able to slide side to side. I Put leupold base and rings on it as well as a VX2 scope and a 25 acp conversion was added as well so i have about $1200 into this gun as it sits. I have bought about $200 in different types of powder/bullet combos to try and my best so far is 5" at 50 yards which would have worked for me for now except the bullet was discontinued and now I'm at about 8". That is the furthest i have shot because I need to hit the target to get a idea of my group size. My next step is to send the scope in to get checked out and then the barrel for a piece of mind if i get the scope back and still can't hit anything.
> 
> One conclusion I have to come to is todays muzzleloaders have tighter tolerences then the one's of past years and 1 thing you must do is clean the muzzleloader between EVERY shot at the range with a spit patch to get rid of the crud ring to get a perfect seated bullet every time. That is where I have failed my gun. I HOPE. I was spoiled by the older muzzleloaders that always had a little bit of leway so you could get a couple of shots off before cleaning the gun. I have talked to lots of guys and that is what every one preaches to me who are really big into their muzzleloader accuracy


Did you try the super glide sabots? I had problems when I originally got my Encore getting bullets to seat easily. The bore was just too damn tight to get consistent seating. In order to get it to seat all the way down I had to tunk the bullet down with a plastic mallet. I'm sure this deformed the bullet tips, which would not help accuracy and also crumbled the pellets which would make for inconsistent ignition. This was several years ago. I tried about 10 different types of bullet/sabot combo's and the only bullets I could get to seat easily and consistently were Powerbelts. I used those for a couple of seasons with the lack of blood trail results that are common with PB's and had to find a better solution. Those PB's sure grouped nice, though!

BY that time shockwave had come out with their EZ glide sabots coupled with their shock wave bullet. I have found that they load as easily and consistently as PB's and give me 1" groups at 100 YDs. These open up to about 2" at 150 YD.s which is more than enough accuracy for me with only a 7X scope. I don't know if it's just the EX glide or Super Glide shockwaves (can't remember which they are called at the moment) or whether I have 300+ shots through my barrel or a combination of the two but I'm very pleased with my Encore these days. If you have not tried these easy to load sabots you might want to before you take extreme measures.


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## Swamp Monster

bowhunting48060 said:


> I called them......I talked to some girl and she said that 3" groups at 100 are the norm, she never heard of a crud ring and so on which left me feeling like I just talked to someone at Nextel. A good friend of mine is a Encore nut and he said customer service has taken a nose dive at T/C. I have high hopes for the new Savage bu you never know. I still have my 700ML to take care of biz!
> 
> Good luck with th PH jamjet
> 
> bh48060


Wow, that's not good to hear. I talk to Nextel from time to time....its hurts!

That Savage Thumbhole looks sweet. If I buy a third inline this will probably be it. Just with it were about a pound lighter.


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## jamjet

Weatherby - Did Bellm have any comments as to your issues?

Bow - I posed this issue to T/C customer service vie e-mail...Here is the reply

I hate to be so anal about this but I realy dont want to spend high $$ and have this issue

Dear Sir.

In regards to your email, we do in fact take very good care of our customers. If there is ever an issue, Thompson Center Arms will stand behind its product 110%. We believe in taking care of our loyal customers as well as our products. Please feel to contact us here at Thompson Center Arms customer service, 603-330-5659. Thank you and have a good day.

Danielle,
Customer Service Rep.
603-332-2333 ext.536


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## Swamp Monster

weatherby said:


> OK here is my 2 cents, but remember muzzleloadin starts Friday and mine will be in the gun safe for now so I may be bias. Bellham's did a trigger job on mine as well as a oversized barrel pin for it and a special tape was bought to put over the ends on the barrel pin so it will not be able to slide side to side. I Put leupold base and rings on it as well as a VX2 scope and a 25 acp conversion was added as well so i have about $1200 into this gun as it sits. I have bought about $200 in different types of powder/bullet combos to try and my best so far is 5" at 50 yards which would have worked for me for now except the bullet was discontinued and now I'm at about 8". That is the furthest i have shot because I need to hit the target to get a idea of my group size. My next step is to send the scope in to get checked out and then the barrel for a piece of mind if i get the scope back and still can't hit anything.
> 
> One conclusion I have to come to is todays muzzleloaders have tighter tolerences then the one's of past years and 1 thing you must do is clean the muzzleloader between EVERY shot at the range with a spit patch to get rid of the crud ring to get a perfect seated bullet every time. That is where I have failed my gun. I HOPE. I was spoiled by the older muzzleloaders that always had a little bit of leway so you could get a couple of shots off before cleaning the gun. I have talked to lots of guys and that is what every one preaches to me who are really big into their muzzleloader accuracy


Wow again. Even without cleaning between every shot, there's a problem! If it's not the scope, and it doesn't sound like it is but could be, I'd be on the horn to T/C asking them where do I have the barrel shipped to be replaced at best, or seriously looked at because something is not right. I clean between each shot, but I have tested my gun with 4 shots in a row to see how bad accuracy falls off incase I need to make quick succesive shots in the field without cleaning. The group was not as good as the clean groups, but was plenty good for deer hunting. I do take a small bit of cleaning supplies in the field with me though along with tools to dissasemble the gun should any mechanical issues arise. If you don't get anywhere on the phone with T/C, wait for the shows or the "rep" days at a Cabelas or BPS and yank on a T/C reps ear. Bring the gun with you. Maybe the shop where the gun was purchased could help? At 50 yards your group should be about one ragged hole with preffered loads. Kind of makes my stomach turn reading that post because I know it just shouldn't be that way if the gun was "right".
Man, you need to keep us posted on how things eventually work out. I feel for ya....


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## Swamp Monster

jamjet said:


> Weatherby - Did Bellm have any comments as to your issues?
> 
> Bow - I posed this issue to T/C customer service vie e-mail...Here is the reply
> 
> I hate to be so anal about this but I realy dont want to spend high $$ and have this issue
> 
> Dear Sir.
> 
> In regards to your email, we do in fact take very good care of our customers. If there is ever an issue, Thompson Center Arms will stand behind its product 110%. We believe in taking care of our loyal customers as well as our products. Please feel to contact us here at Thompson Center Arms customer service, 603-330-5659. Thank you and have a good day.
> 
> Danielle,
> Customer Service Rep.
> 603-332-2333 ext.536


Nothing wrong with being thorough! These guns and accessories are a sizeable investment!


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## halfcore

I have had a few issues with mine, but probably not cleaning/monkeying with it right. Dont have the time or interest....so its for sale (not cheap). PM me if interested....This is a SERIOUS gun fully custom for a T/C enthusiast, not just someone looking for a pro hunter.

Custom t/c encore pro hunter, ponderosa pine stock and forearm (including rifle barrel forearm), custom engraving (gold whitetail), numbered 1 of 250, oversized hingpin, custom trigger job, stainless fluted barrel, leatherwood muzzloader scope w/weaver base, tip extractor. There is not a nicer Encore out there, its a beauty but it needs a new home!


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## bowhunting48060

Hey Swamp, you gave me another justification for buying the Savage..at 9lbs it's heavy so it will be used as part of my wellness plan! Wait til I hit my wife with that one :lol:

I think alot of the issues will be traced back to the QLA on the new barrels. You never heard much trouble with Encores before the QLA. Alot of folk's after taking off the QLA went back to sub 1" groups.


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## Swamp Monster

bowhunting48060 said:


> Hey Swamp, you gave me another justification for buying the Savage..at 9lbs it's heavy so it will be used as part of my wellness plan! Wait til I hit my wife with that one :lol:
> 
> I think alot of the issues will be traced back to the QLA on the new barrels. You never heard much trouble with Encores before the QLA. Alot of folk's after taking off the QLA went back to sub 1" groups.



Let me know how that works out for ya!:lol:

Yeah the QLA is not necessary. I wish T/C would just drop it. Mine has it and no problems but some have been problems, no argument there.


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## ENCORE

I posted what I thought  was a legitimate question earlier, which since I've been following along, I can't recall anyone that's having problems answer.
HAS ANYONE TAKEN THE SCOPE AND RINGS OFF AND THEN CHECKED THEIR GROUPS?
Sorry about the large font guys and gals, but I just couldn't resist.
A couple of the posts here, make me feel darn awful lucky with my Encore.
I wish those of you that are having trouble the best of luck. Please keep us informed on any progress that you may or may not make.


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## Fishfoote

ENCORE said:


> I posted what I thought  was a legitimate question earlier, which since I've been following along, I can't recall anyone that's having problems answer.
> HAS ANYONE TAKEN THE SCOPE AND RINGS OFF AND THEN CHECKED THEIR GROUPS?
> Sorry about the large font guys and gals, but I just couldn't resist.
> A couple of the posts here, make me feel darn awful lucky with my Encore.
> I wish those of you that are having trouble the best of luck. Please keep us informed on any progress that you may or may not make.


Nah, gotta be the gun:lol:


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## jamjet

The QLA may infact be the issue...The second and last post is of intrest
Aligning the sabot pedals the same way every time.........
Here is the link to these post off of huntingnet.com

System will not let me post the URL
huntingnet.com look for subject - New TC in the blackpowder forum


_______________________________________________________________
I think the Encore would be all the muzzleloader you would ever need... there have been a lot of Encore shooters that posted some impressive targets from them. I have heard a report of people cutting off the OLA but I wonder about this.
_________________________________________________________________
If you start the sabot/bullet seating having your sabot petals aligned the same way every time with your grooves, then there's really no need to remove that QLA. All you need to do then is sight-in accordingly. In retrospect, that QLA doesn't involve accuracy... just bullet drift. If you are aligning the sabot properly & it keeps shooting left, adjust your sights to fix the problem. 

I personally love QLAs. I wish all my rifles had it. 

________________________________________________________________

I have to agree with Triple Se7en on the QLA. My Black Diamond XR has one and I have never had a problem with it. I always line the sabot a certain way to the front sight of the rifle. I just found it strange that some people were cutting them off the rifles... 

_________________________________________________________________

You cut them off when you have a barrel that won't shoot worth spit with them on. Changed my .45 from a rifle that didn't shoot very well at all to one that provides excellent accuracy. And yes, it do indeed have to do with accuracy when your QLA section is off center with the bore. 

David White probably gets all of the QLA removal work he wants! I've yet to read anyone report anything but improved accuracy after one of his jobs is completed. 

Redhawk1 over at Graybeard's has a new ProHunter Encore. You might go over and ask him if the differences are worthy of the extra cost. 

______________________________________________________________
The QLA work good if its on dead center, but there are some that are not TC wil replace them should you happen to get one. 
The two inches of barrel gives more sighting radius and more differance in fps with some powders, some powders are designed for pistols and short barrels. Lee 

________________________________________________________________


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## bowhunting48060

ENCORE said:


> I posted what I thought  was a legitimate question earlier, which since I've been following along, I can't recall anyone that's having problems answer.
> HAS ANYONE TAKEN THE SCOPE AND RINGS OFF AND THEN CHECKED THEIR GROUPS?
> Sorry about the large font guys and gals, but I just couldn't resist.
> A couple of the posts here, make me feel darn awful lucky with my Encore.
> I wish those of you that are having trouble the best of luck. Please keep us informed on any progress that you may or may not make.


 

Tried that too


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## sunnenman

Has anyone tried to replace their triple seven with goex pinnacle 3f powder. I have read that it does not produce the crud ring. My encore started out shooting very good a few years ago. My accuracy has dropped off substantially. I am going to get rid of the pellets and try loose powder. I am also going to use plastic cleaner in the barrel to remove sabot plastic that may be in the rifling.
sunnenman


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## bowhunting48060

jamjet - you mean alex(redhawk1) at graybeard...who's PH is a safe queen now that he bought a Savage ML II??? :lol::lol::lol:

This is another great debate that will rage on...I wished my PH would have worked out but oh well. 

Good luck in the late season fellas.

bh48060


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## Q2XL

Swamp Monster said:


> Yeah the QLA is not necessary. I wish T/C would just drop it. Mine has it and no problems but some have been problems, no argument there.


 
What is QLA?????


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## weatherby

ENCORE said:


> HAS ANYONE TAKEN THE SCOPE AND RINGS OFF AND THEN CHECKED THEIR GROUPS?


 I havn't shot it with the scope off usin iron sights because mine were taken off. I have took the scope/base off and put it back on incase something wasn't correct the 1st time
thinkin that would correct the problem. I did email t/c and havn't got a reply yet and that was Monday so seein i see that phone # i will be callin Danielle tomorrow when i get home from work. Maybe i used the wrong email address


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## jamjet

Bow - Are you saying you had the QLA removed? If so no improvment?

It sucks to have made up your mind on a particular gun and then come to find out all this...I don't mind debates but it would be nice to put some solid facts to this issue as a potential buyer. I understand everyone has different processes or rituals when using ML....loads,cleaning,etc. But when you read that seasoned ML enthusiast cant get the PH to shoot correctly.....it leads me to believe that the issue is the gun itself.....


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## bowhunting48060

Q2XL said:


> What is QLA?????


 


Quick Load Accurizer...about 1" at the end of the barrel w/no rifleing. Bullet drops flush so you can leave the ball starter out of the possibles bag.


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## chevyjam2001

bowhunting48060 said:


> I was really geeked when I bought my Pro Hunter. But many range sessions later...every type of powder/bullet combo known to man kind it was still being outshot by my 700ml...I just expected more. I'm a die hard muzzleloader addict and I was really disappointed in the Pro Hunter.
> 
> 777 loose gave me a HORRIBLE crud ring even with 777 primers...going to a .25 acp conversion was my plan but it struck me funny that a expensive gun like that shouldnt need all these mods. So I threw in the towel. Now I get to play with smokeless Friday :evilsmile
> 
> I guess I expected too much from a $800 + gun :sad: Oh well, maybe I got a bad one...I dunno.


Smokeless powder in a muzzle loader in December is illegal...this is from the DNR website:Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black power handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.


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## Joeker51

weatherby said:


> I havn't shot it with the scope off usin iron sights because mine were taken off. I have took the scope/base off and put it back on incase something wasn't correct the 1st time
> thinkin that would correct the problem. I did email t/c and havn't got a reply yet and that was Monday so seein i see that phone # i will be callin Danielle tomorrow when i get home from work. Maybe i used the wrong email address


Now that you've got a contact - call her. Quicker that way. Took over a week and a half to reply to my e-mail inquiring about parts for a Black Diamond. Called and got things squared away with her the day I finally got her e-mail.


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## weatherby

Tanx. I will tomorrow so i can gtart gettin some sleep again 



Joeker51 said:


> Now that you've got a contact - call her. Quicker that way. Took over a week and a half to reply to my e-mail inquiring about parts for a Black Diamond. Called and got things squared away with her the day I finally got her e-mail.


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## Nimrod

I put a different scope on and no difference. I checked and rechecked the base and rings. I just put the same scope, Burris 3x9 BP,and rings on my son's American Knight and after some shooting and sighting in I shot a 3" group @ 100. Plan on getting serious tomorrow. I have tried so much stuff to get the Encore shooting that my head is


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## bowhunting48060

jamjet said:


> Bow - Are you saying you had the QLA removed? If so no improvment?
> 
> It sucks to have made up your mind on a particular gun and then come to find out all this...I don't mind debates but it would be nice to put some solid facts to this issue as a potential buyer. I understand everyone has different processes or rituals when using ML....loads,cleaning,etc. But when you read that seasoned ML enthusiast cant get the PH to shoot correctly.....it leads me to believe that the issue is the gun itself.....


 
Jam- I was at that point of having my barrel cut and decided to sell it. Every gun company puts out a dud or two so don't let us sway you....I'm sharing what happened to me. In the end the decision on what to purchase is a personal one so get what you want.


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## bowhunting48060

chevyjam2001 said:


> Smokeless powder in a muzzle loader in December is illegal...this is from the DNR website:Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
> During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black power handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.


Thanks,I know the regs, my new Savage will be here Friday and it's RANGE time!!!.....I have 3 other muzzleloaders to head to the woods with but I have no tags left....


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## Nimrod

A good friend of mine sent his barrels back 3 times and still could not get them to group. There is now 3 of us selling/sold and have just ordered a Knight Long Range Hunter. Knight guaranties a 4" group at 200 yards. i don't remember T/C making that kind of guaranty.:coolgleam

I think alot of the problem is in the hinge pin area. Any time you change pressure on the barrel/action it changes point of impact. Why do we float barrels and bed actions? When we do the groups get smaller.


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## Swamp Monster

I like the Knight long range hunter as well. Very nice gun. Just more gun that I want to tote around in the swamp....much like the Savage. I have heard these things are shooters though!


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## Thunderhead

I don't know much about the Encore, but I have a T/C Omega sighted in at 150 and she will practically drive nails.
209 primer, 100 gr. 777 flinging 300 gr. Horandy Sabots.


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## rzdrmh

Nimrod said:


> A good friend of mine sent his barrels back 3 times and still could not get them to group. There is now 3 of us selling/sold and have just ordered a Knight Long Range Hunter. Knight guaranties a 4" group at 200 yards. i don't remember T/C making that kind of guaranty.:coolgleam
> 
> I think alot of the problem is in the hinge pin area. Any time you change pressure on the barrel/action it changes point of impact. Why do we float barrels and bed actions? When we do the groups get smaller.


when he sent the barrels back, did they group them for him?

when i first bought my savage, i had a problem with grouping. turns out later that is was a problem on my part, but joe degrande, manager in customer service with savage, was excellent. offerered much advice, sent me a care package that included their recommended bullet/sabot combo, a new breech plug and ventliners, and breech plug grease.

he followed it up with a phone call telling me that if i couldn't get it to group under 1.5" at 100 yards, to send it to him and he'd shoot it on their range. if he couldn't get it to group, he'd send me a new gun.

now that's customer service.. and as a sidenote, that's the kind of american made business that i'm going to support for a long time.

thompson center has also had a very good reputation for customer service. they might not have an accuracy guarantee, but i can't believe they wouldn't stand behind a gun that simply wouldn't shoot.

i've shot a lot of muzzleloaders, and some shoot every load great, and some are particular about loads. consistency is key to accuracy. 

while i'm not a fan of break action muzzleloaders, the encore is a very proven firearm, and i wouldn't hesitate to recommend it or stake a hunting trip on it. i'm sorry to hear you've not been satisfied with yours.

as far as the long range hunter goes, loads are even more critical. my savage easily shoots inside 4" at 200, as well as my omega. accuracy guarantees aside, i doubt theres a firearm with a savage/TC/knight stamp on the barrel that can't be made to group 4" at 200. with a muzzleloader, i believe 200 yards is really testing the shooter. its easy to bang away at 200 with an 06, when wind still isn't a factor. but wind will be a factor at 200 with any muzzleloader.


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## weatherby

This is where I stand right now. Surprizingly T&C does stand behind their products and I was told to send the gun in and they will check it out and make sure nothin is wrong with the actual gun itself, but 1st try this powder/bullet combo. 150 grains pyrodex pellets and a 250 super slide shockwave bullet and see what it does. So I am goin to the range tomorrow after the am hunt and see if that will work and if not I'll be shipin the barrel off to T&C and see if they can find anything. Wish me luck


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## Nimrod

They sent him a new barrel each time.


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## Swamp Monster

Nimrod said:


> They sent him a new barrel each time.


3 bad barrels in a row? Not likley. It was either the receiver or the shooter. The odds of getting 3 bad barrels in a row is way too unlikley. Something else in the puzzle was the X factor.


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## ENCORE

Swamp Monster said:


> 3 bad barrels in a row? Not likley. It was either the receiver or the shooter. The odds of getting 3 bad barrels in a row is way too unlikley. Something else in the puzzle was the X factor.


Swamp, you're exactly right! Either one or the other or both.
In a number of my life's expierences, I've ran into people and many friends that have become so frustrated with a project, that they either gave up completely or bungled it up. It can happen with many different things, cutting wood joints, putting together a childs bike, putting a ladder tree stand together and yes, muzz problems. Sometimes it takes someone else to help ease the frustration.
I have a good friend and hunting partner that needs some guidence every once in awhile. He came to my range with his new CVA to to zero it in. He had the scope bore sighted and expected to have to make more changes to actually zero it. After shooting it 6 or 7 times, he couldn't get it to group and was really upset at the rifle. I'd been watching him, and after those shots of 150gr. of powder, he was starting to flinch. I asked to shoot the rifle a couple times. Ended up moving the scope for zero but only after my first two shots were within an inch of one another (should have seen the look I got). He has it zeroed and his CVA shoots as good as any other muzz out to 100yds.
Its late in the game for problem analysis if these rifles are needed for the southern season opening. But 3 barrels for trial and none of them will group? Something else is definately wrong! Another shooter, outside the group of friends should be trying to check that rifle.
I own a Knight also, and for those that think that a Knight can't be picky, I've got some land in Fl. for sale........


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## jamjet

As a person who has never owned an Encore...what are the things you would look for if you were to purchase a Pro Hunter. I am going to purchase one in a couple of days.

QLA - properly milled - I would assume you cannot decifer this with the naked eye?

Hinge pin - tight/lose - As a non owner what kind of play are we looking at with the barrel side to side--None?

Forearm touching receiver - have read people shaving down the forearm - do all touch?

Anything else - comments

I would assume I would be able to do a comparision between different Pro Hunters at the store...again not owning one and not knowing what exactly to look for would dictate a comparison of different pro Hunters

Or.....you really wont be able to to notice these issues by looking at the gun......just buy one maybe you'll get lucky

Thanks


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## ENCORE

jamjet said:


> As a person who has never owned an Encore...what are the things you would look for if you were to purchase a Pro Hunter. I am going to purchase one in a couple of days.
> 
> QLA - properly milled - I would assume you cannot decifer this with the naked eye?
> 
> Hinge pin - tight/lose - As a non owner what kind of play are we looking at with the barrel side to side--None?
> 
> Forearm touching receiver - have read people shaving down the forearm - do all touch?
> 
> Anything else - comments
> 
> I would assume I would be able to do a comparision between different Pro Hunters at the store...again not owning one and not knowing what exactly to look for would dictate a comparison of different pro Hunters
> 
> Or.....you really wont be able to to notice these issues...just buy one?
> 
> Thanks


Just my opinion........ it doesn't matter in most cases what you purchase when it comes to a muzz. Cheap packaged CVA's from K-Mart will shoot exceptional, the Savage's shoot exceptional, the Omega's, the Encores, the Pro Hunters.
If you've made up your mind that you'd like to purchase a Pro Encore, just go check them out and BUY the one that you like. Remembering though, that with the purchase of ANY MAKE muzz, that you'll have to determine which load shoots the best from it. That sometimes takes time and work.
IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FASHION AM I TRYING TO BELITTLE ANY OTHER MANUFACTURER BUT...... CONSIDER THIS...... There's so many hunters out there now that are watching the Outdoor Channel and dreaming of nothing but monster bucks and how we have to let all the bucks go unless they have 15 points on one side. They're watching the bucks alright but, on the other hand, check out the muzz rifles that "most" (I didn't say all guys) of the hosts are shooting. I believe that you'll find the Encore, Pro Encore or the Omega the most used muzz rifles on the shows.
The only thing that you have to worry about is "how quick you can decide"


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## jamjet

Youre point is well taken Encore....I am set on this gun. I was just hoping to aleviate some head ache down the road.

I have been using a CVA for a couple of years and am looking for a new ML.

Thanks


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## Nimrod

ENCORE, I think you might be on to something there about the action/hinge pin area.That is the critical point of the gun.:idea: Is the same amount of pressure on the barrel every time you open and close the action? On a regular rifle If you tighten the screws at different torques on non bedded action your point of impact will change.


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## charlie111

Hey yall! I'm trying to find out some more info on Rossi muzzleloaders.Can any of you tell me where their barrels are made?I would also like to know what kind of pressure testing they do,and to what amount of psi they are tested to.Thanks for the info.


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## rzdrmh

charlie111 said:


> Hey yall! I'm trying to find out some more info on Rossi muzzleloaders.Can any of you tell me where their barrels are made?I would also like to know what kind of pressure testing they do,and to what amount of psi they are tested to.Thanks for the info.


not sure where the barrels are made, but i'd highly doubt that any pressure testing is being done.


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## bowhunting48060

ENCORE said:


> on the other hand, check out the muzz rifles that "most" (I didn't say all guys) of the hosts are shooting. I believe that you'll find the Encore, Pro Encore or the Omega the most used muzz rifles on the shows.
> 
> 
> 
> T/C spends big bucks to have these "pro's" shoot their stuff. I bet if Shockey, Waddel and Jordan were offered bigger money from Rossi they would be shooting them
> 
> Get what you want, spend time at the range developing a load and shoot shoot shoot. There is alot of good advice and real world exp here on this forum. There are a lot of personal exp with every type of muzzleloader made here as well but just because someone here had a bad exp with a Pro Hunter does not mean it's a POS by any stretch. I think T/C makes great stuff....I just hit the wall with mine and had enough. All kidding aside I still feel the PH is a great gun but not for bh48060.


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## SwiftHntr.17

:coolgleam Here's the skinny, I bought a used Camo Encore 209x.50 for $250.00, that's right, $250.00. Gun had Weaver base and mounts, 3x9x40 Bushnell scope. Fired the gun and you guessed it, it had a spread of 5-7". 
First I cleaned the barrel, shooters choice, bore brush and then a healthy scrub with "blue wonder". Next I replaced mounts and bases with Talley's and the scope came off and replaced with a Nikon 2-7 monarch. Pulled the 209 primer breach plug and replaced with a .25acp.
Loaded gun up with 110 grains APP fffg and a 220 grain PB DeadCenter. Fired remington 7 1/2 small rifle primers. Cut the group down to 1.5" and the gun is a total joy to shoot. So for around $500.00 bucks, I ended up with top of the line shooter.
Oh yea, sold the Bushnell yesterday for $50.00, so make that $450.00 If you guys insist on selling your Encores, my suggestion is get someone else involved with no bias and have them go completely through the gun to get it to shoot or sell it to someone who can. From experience, every gun I've sold in the past, I've grown to regret it.


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## weatherby

No good news here. I just got back from the range and the scope is off the gun and both the scope and the barrel with be sent back on monday. At least I have 12 months to get it right this time


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## Nimrod

What scope?


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## weatherby

Nimrod said:


> What scope?


 For a piece of mind once the gun is back together agian I decided to send the scope in to get checked out also seein it has a lifetime warranty


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## halfcore

On a side note (this has probably been discussed before?) t/c is now owned by s&w (per Mike Bellm). Mikes latest newsletter has some interesting info and tidbits, but the moral of the story is this with Encores. There is a wide range of tolerance in machining these frames, barrels, etc. With that said, each Encore is different, and each Encore more than likely will have to be customized (different breach plugs, barrels, primers, powder types/amounts, hinge pins, trigger jobs, qla removal?, bullets, barrels, scopes, scope mounts) to find out the best package for accuracy.

Some guys might get lucky and pull one out of the box and shoot 3 inch groups at 100 yards, the rest of us should be expected to concoct some form of voodoo to put this all together.

Do you find this acceptable for the $$$, and do you have the time or interest to do so? Mine is waning, and my pockets are mighty light after all of my trials and tribulations.

You can send your stuff back to t/c (smith & Wesson) to get it checked, but I would be skeptical as to what you are really going to get back in return.

I suspect pre-S&W Encores may go up in value as perhaps quality has slid since S&W purchased them? I dunno, but seems to be alot more problems with them recently (especially the pro hunter).


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## bowhunting48060

I highly doubt T/C's quality has gone down hill because S&W bought them...at least not this fast. Take what the aftermarket guy's(Bellm) have to say with a grain of salt....If they tell you the guns are good out of the box they don't eat.


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## MarbleEyeMack

Guys, I don't know if it has been mentioned, but from my experience with my T/C Omega, a greased barrel will give me a flyer, first shot after cleaning, talked to a few people about this and the solution was to fire a 209 primer through it before loading with a round to shoot at target or Hunt. A dry barrel shoots sabots most accurately. I also agree that the rifling being fouled will cause erratic shot placement. Have experienced that in another gun.
My uncle has an Encore and it too, would "drive tacks", until one day, when prepping for ML season, he was all over the map and found his Leupold scope was broken. I think that was addressed from what I read.
Nimrod, it appears from the discussion, you have exhausted your efforts, and that is unfortunate. It is possible that you did simply get a lemon. These things do happen from time to time, it is frustrating. Best wishes in your future endeavors.


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## halfcore

controlled production established on reputation only (old t/c) vs mass production established on mass marketing (s&w)....I take the former.

Bellm is pretty established himself as someone who knows what the heck he is talking about, no doubt. He may have some new financial interests in the new barrels from Spain, but the guy has more experience than any of us clowns, and that is worth more than a grain of salt.

Maybe, maybe not....but again for the price and all of the voodoo required, I would expect a more consistent product.

Dont forget, S&W backed politicians who voted against gun ownership and for gun registration in major cities (Boston, Chicago...) I would never buy a S&W product myself regardless of the quality...imo 

My encore is still for sale..




bowhunting48060 said:


> I highly doubt T/C's quality has gone down hill because S&W bought them...at least not this fast. Take what the aftermarket guy's(Bellm) have to say with a grain of salt....If they tell you the guns are good out of the box they don't eat.


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## SwiftHntr.17

Over the years, S&W has been sold several times, so I don't think it's the same company it was during the Clinton Administration. Besides, what does that have to do with an Encore muzzleloader? (P.S. You can't advertise guns for sale on here).:yikes:


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## LoBrass

Got a pro hunter this year and like it a lot. I tried 300 grain shockwaves with 150 grains of 777 and it was a poor shooter. (Was going to use it on a bear hunt.) Moved to 200 grain shockwave and 100 grains 777 (my deer load) and it is AWESOME!! The ease of use and cleaning from what I came from have no comparison.


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