# Do Wild Cougars Live In Michigan?



## Trophy Specialist

> _Originally posted by Linda G. _
> *As for would the DNR arrest or ticket someone who accidentally treed a cougar, I've forwarded that very question to DNR Law Enforcement in Lansing, let's see what they say. *


That question has already been answered, sort-of anyway. The Michigan Wildlife Conservancy tried to get permission from the DNR to take dogs into an area where cougar sign was reported and try to tree a cat. Their request was denied and they were told it is illegal to chase cougars with dogs.

Hamilton Reef, that was a fair, evenly reported article by Dave LeMieux.

Eastern Yooper, touché; I couldn't have said it better myself. LOL


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## n.pike

I agree with TS, I would be more concerned about repercussons from the DNR. Here is a fact, there was a dead one last Saturday in Hale, those that saw it were not intoxicated, it was there. I personally would not turn it in up here as we have some "questionable" law enforcement personnel.No offence intended to Boehr, I am basing that on my personal experience with our local officers. It answered my questions of existence. The only thing I dont know is if it was wild or captive. It appeared to be a wild one.

That makes 2 that I personally know of in Iosco county. As far as elusive, thats the same number of cats as bears that I have seen, and they aren't endangered.


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## Linda G.

Did the MWC have hunting licenses to do that, Mike? If they didn't, then it would be illegal...

did anyone take photos of that cougar, n.pike? 

What did they do with it? Ground's pretty hard to be burying anything...lots of snow on top of it, too. So it's either been burned or it's still around, right? In someone's freezer?


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## fishenfreak

I would swear ive seen the tracks of a cougars near cannonsburg but people have told me that it could be a bobcat but im not to sure about that. The paws were awful big and for some reason the prints were 10-15 apart. I could be thing of something else and i know for a fact they werent coyotes,or a dog, but maybe a bobcats and i doubt that too.
I found these tracks off of eygpt valley and 5 mile at the public hunting parking lot. If ya dont believe me go look for your self.


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## Hamilton Reef

Back at the sportshop the consensus was:
If a cougar is seen, shoot it. The hunter will have the 15-minutes of fame in self defense after the bikers were killed in California and the cat would finally be a documented carcass for DNA, wild or tame inspection,and so on.


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## Sarge

A question to the doubters. 


Does this situation more closely resemble:

A. The non-existant wolves that have eaten small dogs in the UP?

B. The non-existant UFOs that have stopped being seen now that nearly everyone has a cam corder. 


(HINT) one of these turned out to actually be something.


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## Mark Harmes

If they did exist ahounds hunter would be able to confirm it by now, guess what, none has.


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## timberdoodle528

Not enough proof for me to believe it. Just a bunch of hearsay. I agree with Mark Harmes... My uncle runs hounds on bobcats everyday when season is open. They look for cat tracks for hours and go many many miles ..... they have never seen so much as a single cougar track. I think that the cats that have been seen were no more than realeased or escaped "pets". I don't believe that there is a breeding population of wild cougars in Michigan.

And how could you possibly be able to help it if your hound was on a bobcat track and jumped to a cougar track???? I don't believe that you would get arrested or fined for your dogs unintentionally running a cougar....Im not saying I know that as a fact...but I find that hard to believe.


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## warthog

mark what does hunting hounds have to do with this, thay are talking about cats.


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## Linda G.

From Alan Marble, Acting Law Enforcement Chief of the DNR's Law Division:

If folks are legally running dogs and they tree a cougar and get a picture of it, they're not going to get a ticket. Part of running dogs is that they sometimes tree things their master isn't necessarily after. It's expected, and an honest error is not confused with outright wildlife harassment. 

However, if someone were to get a picture like that, we'd want to see it. It would represent some kind of actual, factual proof in a discussion marked largely by murky half-truths and northwoods lore.


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## Trophy Specialist

> _Originally posted by Linda G. _
> *Did the MWC have hunting licenses to do that, Mike? If they didn't, then it would be illegal...*


I don't think there is a license available to chase cougars in Michigan. It is illegal to chase or harras any threatened or endangered species and that would certainly include treeing the animal with hounds. However, in special circumstanes, the DNR can make exceptions. Forinstance, for research the DNR could grant an exception like they have for in studies on eagles, cormorants, wolves, etc...


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## kenockee_ken

My brother in law says he saw one cross the logging trail about a 100 yards in front of his truck while running bear with his dogs last year up in burgland. He really knows his stuff so I tend to believe every word.
KK


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## Linda G.

TS-I didn't mean a license to chase cougars, you know that. I meant a hunting license for one of the species that are legally hunted with treeing hounds...like a bear, furbearer or small game license.

I can see where they wouldn't issue permits to run dogs through the woods just to see what they might come up with, and undoubtedly, for some additional publicity...if you were not actively training your dogs, or hunting for a specific species with a license, running dogs to hopefully find a cougar would be wildlife harasssment, as Alan Marble stated above...

So if the MWC really wants to do this, they need to all buy small game licenses or furbearer licenses, then find someone with trained dogs that will work with them, then hunt every square inch of the state of Michigan for coyote or bobcat where that is in season, and see what they come up with...and they're now safe in the knowledge that if they do tree a cougar, they won't be arrested or ticketed as long as they tell the DNR that was not their specific intent-that their intent was to hunt coyotes or bobcats, per Alan Marble's statement above...just like every other group of coyote/cat/bear/raccoon hunters in the state

How many members of the MWC do you think would do that? How many do you think do any hunting at all?


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## whitedog

linda g. looks like you fall into the class of people that dont do drugs, and by the way mountian lion are not on any endangered species list in the usa there for if my hounds run one its free and clear it mite not be leagle to kil it sence theres no open season on them in michigan, but there in no way endangered in the us, so for this unlike the wolves if only one lion in the state of michigan the state could have a hunting season for it and sell licsens for it i stand strong on my beliefs that theres no cougars that are wild in michigan but would love to see them introduced state wide there a very nice animal to hunt and theres a lot of thrill in it to bad i have to drive 24 west to do it, all you people that see them just remember i have the time and money to travel and tree them but also remember if i do drive to where you tell me theres a cougar and its not a cougar or lion what ever you want to call them i am very expensive i will catch it if its there but if its not you pay me and i am not cheap put a 5 gallon bucket over the track so i can see it heck put buckets over and many tracks as you can and if it is truly a lion i will not charge it will be a $4000 hunt for free for you or a good trip for me one of the 2 lions are easy to tree once you jump them they have not the lungs to run very far well yall have a great day have to get checking the rest of the board


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## Trophy Specialist

I guess the door has now been opened now for houndsmen to run cougars, an endangered species, as long as they are targeting their dogs (supposedly) for other species. I wonder how admissible that would be in court the statement from Alan Marble should a CO or federal wildlife agent happened to disagree with him and write a ticket anyway? 

What if a wild cougar was treed, killed or otherwise proven to exit in Michigan? What would happen is the DNR would have to manage the animals as an endangered species. This would cost the DNR much time and money, which would have to come out of an already strapped budget. In my opinion, this is why the DNR has been invoking on their campaign of plausible deniability, because what doesn't exist doesn't cost them anything. Wisconsin has also taken the same aproach to the issue and I'm not so sure I disagree. My next question is, do we really want an expanding population of wild cougars in Michigan?


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## Linda G.

No, whitedog, I don't do drugs...unless Motrin counts...


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## Trophy Specialist

Anybody that thinks that eastern cougars are not endangered is very wrong. Here's a link to the USF&WS that explains there official status -- http://endangered.fws.gov/i/a/saa48.html


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## Swamp Monster

I don't know about the cougers, but I have my doubts. This all reminds me of Big Foot...lots of eyewitness accounts yet the physical evidence just does not back it up. There is one thing I am sure of though. My lack of trust in the MWC. The Sleeping Bear Dunes story is another interesting one. If you have to dress a person up to make them look credible something's slightly fishy.


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## WAUB-MUKWA

I found this on another site

When I saw it, I believed

Published Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:52:45 AM Central Time


But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say. Indeed, these are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning." 

--Acts 2:14-15 

It was Saturday morning when we saw it. We were on our way to Marquette, to a funeral. No, we weren't drunk. 

But we did see a cougar. 

We keep hearing reports about big cats roaming around the area. I'm here to tell you they're true. 

Our first cougar sighting took place in Marquette County. We were heading home from a visit at our niece's house. 

"There's one," said my wife, Sue. 

What she meant was, "There's a deer." 

We were just past Van Riper Park, and sure enough there was a critter -- a pretty big one -- standing on a snowbank. But it wasn't a deer. 

As we pulled even with it we realized it was a big, solid-colored cat. 

No, it wasn't a bobcat. I've seen a bobcat and this wasn't it. For one thing, it was much bigger. For another, it didn't have that tabby cat look. 

Our second sighting came Saturday morning, on our way to visit family and friends in Marquette. We were just outside Ewen and a big, long-tailed cat was meandering through a field. 

"Did you see that?" my wife asked. 

"That" was a big cat, ambling through a vacant field. 

Wanting to get to the bottom of things, I pulled in at Big Valley Ford-Chrysler. 

Greg Anderson was outside, chatting up some customers. 

"Have you been getting any reports of big cats?" I asked him. 

"Yep," he said. "One east of town and another around Kenton." 

"People have been reporting them to the state, but they ask you if you've been drinking," he added. 

I'm no wildlife biologist, but I reckon there are at least three or four dozen cougars roaming around western Upper Michigan. When state wildlife officials finally cop to the fact that we have a healthy population of mountain lions that number may well be higher. 

A quick trip to the Internet supplied me with a description that jived with what we saw. 

According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, "The eastern cougar is described as a large, unspotted, long-tailed cat. Its body and legs are a uniform fulvous or tawny hue." 

You have to wonder how they got here. I suspect they, like the wolf, have never really been gone. 

We're seeing them now because the deer population has exploded. Cougars feed primarily on deer, according to USFWS, but their diet may also include small mammals, wild turkeys, and occasionally domestic livestock, when available. (Come to think if it, not all the farms west of Ewen are abandoned.) 

Why state officials continue to deny that they're here is another issue. 

"Though the mountain lion (Puma concolor) has been considered extirpated in Michigan since the early 1900s, sightings of the big cats have persisted in both the Upper and Lower Peninsulas," according to Kirk Johnson of International Ecological Partnerships, Grand Junction, Colo. 

Johnson adds, "The Department of Natural Resources does acknowledge the existence of this species within the state. However, state officials continue to insist that the majority of these sightings involve former captive animals or misidentification of other species, rather than a wild population of mountain lions." 

We certainly have the habitat they need. 

No preference for specific habitat types has been noted, said the USFWS Web page. The primary need is apparently for a large wilderness area (Upper Michigan would suit, I'd guess) with an adequate food supply. Male cougars of other subspecies have been observed to occupy a range of 25 or more square miles, and females from 5 to 20 square miles. 

I got a call about a sighting east of Wakefield this summer. Another friend of mine said his wife's morning constitutional in north Ironwood was interrupted when she rounded a corner to find herself facing a big, long-tailed cat. That wasn't even a half-mile north of town. 

A friend of mine, who lives east of Wakefield, tells me he hears them yowling. A young resident of Sturgeon Bay, Wis., told officials he spotted one near a city park this summer. 

I've got to guess that if we know of two cats in Ontonagon County (Kenton is in Houghton County, just east of the Ontonagon line) and two in Gogebic, then there must be at least two or three more for each we see. 

Male cougars can reach up to 8 feet in total length and weigh in excess of 220 pounds. Females are smaller, averaging slightly over 6 feet in length and up to 140 pounds. 

By any of their several names felis concolor is the same critter in as many as 30 subspecies. Its many names include puma, deer tiger, Mexican lion, mountain screamer, brown tiger, catamount, silver lion, mountain demon, Indian devil, purple feather, king cat, sneak cat, mountain lion and panther. 

By any name, they're big and potentially dangerous. Knowing they're out there will make a more careful nature lover out of me.

More local comments...



Cougar reports not uncommon

Published Tuesday, January 27, 2004 11:475 AM Central Time


To the editor: 

Pertaining to the cougar sighting reported by Andy Hill: My niece's husband and young son saw a cougar at 30 yards while sitting in his deer blind near the Beagle Club, two months ago. 

I have also seen a cougar twice within one week, next to the southwest shaft entrance to the White Pine mine, in 1993 or '94. The security guard also confided to having seen one near the same spot while partridge hunting. It jumped out from beneath an evergreen only yards from him and scared the tar out of him. He said the hairs on his head stiffened and he turned around and walked out of the woods as fast as he could go. He said he hadn't told anyone, until I told him I had just seen a cougar a second time in a week. 

When I was about 17, hunting on Powers Road, I had what my dad believes was a cougar come to within 50 yards of my deer stand. I heard a screech and snarl. I was so scared that I hesitated to leave the ground stand at dark because I was too afraid to make the hike out to the road and wait to be picked up. 

I waited until I saw my dad's vehicle lights, then ran out of the woods to the vehicle and told him what had happened. The next day he went back out there and found the tracks where it had walked up behind me. 

He found a large bed beneath an evergreen where it had been lying down, got up and had walked up behind me, then ran off. My dad had hunted and trapped for years and knew bobcat tracks and said they were twice the size of a bobcat track. 

Another Ironwood Township man is alleged to have had a cougar jump fleetingly onto his wood pile while making firewood near his home, although this is hearsay. 

Two years ago, a hunter told my uncle he saw a cougar sneaking by, while hunting on my uncle's Wakefield property during bow season. 

None of these were ever reported to the Desk Jockeys, as there are no photos. Thank you, Andy Hill. 

James E. Bale 

Ironwood


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## jlizyness

can we run our dogs on a Yedi ( bigfoot )? Do you know that the state of Washington says there are no Bigfoots but yet they do have a law that prohibits anyone from shooting a man like primate! What gives ? And on the subject of our DNR, they could have a cougar lying on the hood of their car and still would not see anything. I'm sorry but I have no faith in a dept. that estimates the deer kill by sitting on overpasses and counting deer on tops of cars as they go by. I wouldput my faith in those hunters rather than some cop with a green uniform on !!!!!!!!


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## Linda G.

That research group has made much of their findings in the Gulliver area, over and over again...their name was the Michigan Wildlife Habitat Foundation, now known (lots of us still aren't quite sure why they changed their name, would be interesting research, wouldn't it?) as the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy-Dr. Rusz, Mr. Fijakowski, and friends...the paper you received was their newsletter, I think it's a quarterly...

They showed a number of slides of the Gulliver area and research in the presentation at their headquarters in Bath that I saw-one of those photos was reportedly a rather blurry shot of a cougar-but I couldn't help but think it looked like a photo of a common house cat to me. Those slides are part of their regular presentation portfolio.


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## Sarge

The article I read in a periodical, (this was a year to two ago dont remember which rag) was from an interview with a professor from CMU. No I don't remember his name either. I only know that he never saw a cat. He analyzed scat dna and found 2 things I thought at the time were significant. 

1. These were indeed big cats. Not to say they weren't released pets. 

2. These were the same cats in most cases but not all. 

The conclusion was not definitive but certainly enough for me. That is, that there are big cats and they aren't migrating through, but residing. That's close enough for me. I don't really care if they are "wild" or escaped pets. I don't really care if they swam here or didn't. I don't even care if Linda G. ever sees one. I believe just the same. 

My comment about the Wolves was a slap at the DNR's absolute absurd belief that if they say it isn't so, we as woodsmen and sportsmen are going to roll over and accept them at their word. 

They did keep saying there are no wolves, and small pets kept disappearing leaving wolf-like signs behind. 

Here we are again. People are seeing cats and there are cat-like signs that people have had tested. So come DNR and DNR wannabes, should look at the fact that not everyone toting firearms and/or walking in the woods is eating mushrooms out of cow pies. If the say they saw a big cat. It is reasonable to assume that they did see something. It would make a lot better sense to say "we are trying to find out what they saw, " Than to just say. "We have no proof they saw anything."

Any one who just plain believes the stuff that a DNR rep. says is being very naive or taking the party claim at face value. I will probably never be accused of that. 
Remember DNR is a goverment department run by politicians and the rep. (any rep) is saying what his boss told him to. I do not bundle COs into that package, but I'm sure a few do fit there.


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## n.pike

Well put Sarge!


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## Linda G.

Dr. Brad Swanson, a professor of biology at CMU, who together with some of his grad students did a sampling of scat for a couple of years until as recently as last year under a grant from MWC. I'm not sure if he's still working with MWC or not-you might want to check the latest article on this in MON by Tom Carney, or the article published in last month's Woods N Waters. 

Some of that scat WAS verified as cougar, but since the MWC brought that to him, he had no way of verifying its origin, other than to take the word of the person who submitted it. 

Dr. Swanson told me when I interviewed him last year that CMU was trying to do an independent study on this subject, which WOULD be a scientific, conclusive study of scat they could VERIFY was collected from that area. I don't know if that was ever approved, started or what. If it was, they won't have any preliminary findings or other substantive data at all for another year or so-most studies are two to three years, minimum.

If you read any of my articles, you know I DON'T believe everything the DNR tells me-nothing could be further from the truth. But I do believe facts, not to mention all the houndsmen and trappers of Michigan that I know, and the overall fact is, we don't yet have any proof of wild cougars in Michigan.


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## WAUB-MUKWA

Okay, a friend asked me this last week.
How many people have actually walked up on a dead bear, or have seen the bones of a bear while in the woods?
I doubt very few people have EVER walked up on these bones. Does this mean bears don't exist?


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## Linda G.

c'mon.... 

Do bears get hit by cars?

Do hound hunters tree bears and take good, clear photos, that can be verified by witnesses?

Do bears get brought into check stations?

Do bears leave verifiable tracks, hair and scat behind?

Do they leave further proof of their presence by the damage to bird feeders, camp doors, and coolers?


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## timbergsp

Now I beleave there is both released pets and wild big cats in michigan BUT the ????? I have is what would one of there "pets" eat would they not be declawed how would they catch food I know they could not take down a deer with out claws but could they catch a rabbit and maybe mice with out them what you think?


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## LandBarge

This isn't really related to this thread but I read in a Fort Wayne newspaper last night that some guy was bringing his "pet" cougar home from the vet. The cat was riding in the back seat of the guy's car. No cage. The guy slid off the road and the cougar escaped. The cops found it hiding in some bushes near an office building and tried to sedate it with tranquilizers. Two tranquilizer darts and the cat wouldn't go down. They theorize that because of the crash and the escape its adenaline level was at a high enough point to counteract the tranq's. At any rate, it wouldn't go down and they had to kill it.

I freely admit to being a skeptic when people first began talking about cats in MI. There have been too many reports by too many people with more than enough credibility to laugh off anymore.


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## Ferg

is not a hunter - it is prey -  

Not all homeowners declaw their cats -  

ferg....
makes 'em defenceless


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## Trophy Specialist

It has been reported that 10,000 people have come forward with their cougar sightings. Every time people (and writers) say that there is no proof that cougars exist in the wild in Michigan, how do you think it makes those people feel? It's like calling them all liers and it must make them furioius. Many years ago I saw two wild wolves in the UP when the DNR was still denying their existance in Michigan. I didn't like being called a lier then eithor and as it turned out, it was the DNR that were proven to be the real liers. I choose to keep an open mind on cougars.


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## Eastern Yooper

People up here haven't forgot about all of the ridicule, the arrogance, and the dismissive attitude that some had towards wolf sightings 20 years ago.

Apparantly, one has to have a biology degree and a uniform with a _DNR_ patch on the sleeve to have any credible say on this subject.


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## Sarge

TS my point exactly. Thank you. 

It is surprising to me the number of people who have to be "proven right" to feel their value to mankind. 

I don't need to be proven right or wrong, because I don't make any claims but I do have an open mind and I currently do believe. 

No one has ever proven many things to me that I believe. I will keep believing until there is contrary proof. Somehow that seems better to me than to disbelieve until there is proof. In this case maybe even safer. Believing helps keep ones eyes open and mind alert in the wild.


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## Linda G.

Maybe whitedog will find us all a cougar this weekend...he's going over to the west end of the UP to look...hope boehr hasn't caught them all by that time...


  

Boehr, I just got another notice that my box is still full-it isn't??


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## Trophy Specialist

I found this interesting. The DNR conducts a study every year called the Deer Camp Survey in the central UP. It is strictly voluntary and participating camps keep statistics during the gun deer season on what they see while hunting. I've been participating in the survey since its inception and believe it is one of the best efforts the DNR is making to assess the deer herd and firearm deer season. So what's this got to do with cougars? Besides deer sightings, starting in 2001, participants have also counted furbearer sightings. In 2001, even though cougars were not listed on the survey form, one cougar sighting was still reported. In 2002, again, one cougar was sighted. But in 2002, a strange thing happened in the survey report. Here how it reads:

"As was the case in previous years, coyotes topped the list of furbearers seen by deer hunters (170 observations). Camp cooperators also recorded 64 bobcat sightings, 59 wolf, 20 martin, 20 fisher, 8 fox and 0 cougar (although 2 camps felt they might have seen a cougar)."

On the survey form, there is no category for "might have seen a cougar," rather is just says cougar. The DNR, with their plausible deniability policy on cougars, will not even report actual sightings in the Deer Camp Survey report any more without dumbing them down. No, they first qualify cougar sightings with, "felt they might have seen." Funny how you don't see wolves, martins or fishers qualified that way, even though they are much harder to positively identify. I wonder why that is?


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## Mark Harmes

Warthog, lets go get a 40 after work and talk about dogs and cats and bears


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## Hamilton Reef

When you take a walk through the Sleeping Bear Dunes be sure have Lassie at your side. I saw on TV how Lassie responds to a cougar. It was impressive.


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## NATTY BUMPO

HR, Thats a good one. What sort of martial arts can Lassie do now- Judo? Kung Fu? What??
BTW. if yr coming up to SBDNL anytime soon, bring your snowshoes or X-country skis. We're gettin' another 5-8" of white stuff today.
 

Natty B.


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## mich buckmaster

> It is surprising to me the number of people who have to be "proven right" to feel their value to mankind.


Sarge How many people said they saw UFO's---------MORE THAN 10,000 I can tell you that. 

Until there is Proof in Pictures, dead, dead, PROOF, DEAD!! Then I will personally believe it, until then I am still a non believer.


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## NATTY BUMPO

I had posted early in this thread re our groups experiences up at Sleeping Bear Dunes NP while on a snowshoe hike two weeks ago today. In today's Traverse City Record Eagle is an article by Gordie Charles, a well-respected outdoor writer. He doesnt go off "half-cocked". The title is:


> Cougar sightings spark debate


 Thats putting it mildly. 
As I had posted earlier, Ms Eleanor Comings of Frankfort, a long-time Park volunteer, was followed for "twenty minutes at a distance of a few feet" by a big cat. She and Ranger Vern spoke at length to our group about the mounting evidence from Sleeping Bear. IMO these folks are not "loonies, nor were they drunk or high" either as others have opined here.I'm keepin' an open mind on this one. I dont think the TC R-E put this up on their website. www.record-eagle.com

Natty B.


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## Ferg

MUCC has a cougar on thier calandar for Feb - so it must be true?

ferg....
   
Running for cover....


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## FREEPOP

That is very funny Ferg. I'm glad we finally have our answer


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## BFTrout

I'm not sure if there are very many downstate, but there are certainly Mt. Lions in the Yoop. From Ironwood to the Soo. 
Just recently (3 weeks ago) we got a confirmed Canadian Lynx in a trap over in Chippewa Co. And those aren't supposed to be in MI either. 
The DNR has changed their statement about weather or not Mt. Lions are in MI, they are saying "yes" now, but not in breeding numbers. Those must be some old cats that the old timers saw 20-30 years ago and we're still seeing today. 
BFTrout
take it for what you will. . .


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## WAUB-MUKWA

They are definately around here. With the UP still being a very remote place, with just over 300,000 population there is plenty of room for a big cat to roam. If there are sightnings still in the LP, then there is no arguing about it. The cats are here.


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## LandBarge

> _Originally posted by BFTrout _
> *
> The DNR has changed their statement about weather or not Mt. Lions are in MI, they are saying "yes" now, but not in breeding numbers. *


Trout, 
Just curious...where can I find the DNR's statement on big cats?


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## LandBarge

Detroit Free Press article of 11/21/01

DNA proves 20 cats roaming UP and Northern LP.

http://www.freep.com/sports/outdoors/cougar1_20011101.htm


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## Ferg

these 'Michigan Wildlife Habitat Foundation' guys the Anti-hunting group?

They WANT to prove cats run in Mi so they can 'preserve' the area and restrict hunting in those area in order to 'preserve' the cat's habitat?

I'm not speaking of what I know, only of what I think, so someone please fill in the blanks here for me - 

thanks

ferg....


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## Trophy Specialist

> _Originally posted by Ferg _
> *these 'Michigan Wildlife Habitat Foundation' guys the Anti-hunting group?*


No the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy is not anti-hunting. In fact, they allow hunting on their land near Bath, MI. However, if it is proven (without a shadow of a doubt) that wild cougars do live in Michigan, then they would have to be managed as an endangered species by the DNR. What that would mean is unclear. In some cases, areas have been closed to hunting to protect certain endangered species. In my opinion, this is why the DNR is fighting with the MWC so vigorously to deny that wild cougars live in Michigan. The FEDs typically force states to manage endangered species, but often without any monetary assistance. With a strapped state budget, I can understand the DNR's delema, but their position certainly understandably wrankles many people who believe cougars are indeed here.


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## LandBarge

> _Originally posted by Trophy Specialist _
> *No the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy is not anti-hunting. *


According to their website, all they want to do is help landowners and managers preserve / restore habitat. They have a couple of good pages on Michigan cougars including photos of a cat in summer foliage and some tracks in the snow, and in dirt.

Trophy's comment on the DNR's dilema if cougars eventually are proven to be here makes sense. But with all the research, the sightings, and a building momentum for more public awareness, it's becoming more and more difficult for anyone to continue to deny the cats' existence in our state.

http://www.miwildlife.org/cougar.html

http://www.miwildlife.org/geninfo.html


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## WAUB-MUKWA

Like I said earlier, they are here. I'm glad they finally came out and said they were. We up here were begining to wonder what type of purple mushrooms they were on.


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## SPH

I had a conversation with contractor that I work with today and had to share this story. I am not a big believer about the cougars in Michigan but this guy is a straight shooter and I believed every word. 

During the fall bow hunting season in 2003, he shot a deer and went out track about 10:00pm. When they finally came up on the deer it had been buried (about 90%) and the animal had only eaten about a 1-1/2Ibs. of the meat. Late in october another hunter shot a doe on the same property and when it was found it was covered with corn stocks and had scratches down its sides and again only about 1-1/2 Ibs of meat had been eaten. This time they found tracks and sure enough it was a cat. He called the DNR out to take a look and the C.O. measured the print at 5". The officer admitted that it was a cat and it must have weighed roughly 60Ibs. Knowing that it is not possible for a bobcat to be that big, he asked the C.O. if it was a cougar and he replied (with a laugh) that we do not have cougars in Michigan.
I do not know what any of this means but that C.O. sure didn't have a good answer. (This took place and a town east of Clare)

Just thought I would share this story!


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## Linda G.

SPH-could you please share the name of that CO either via pm or via email ([email protected]), so that can be verified? Might make a good article, too. Thanks!

If the contractor doesn't remember his name, if he could just provide me with the date or approximate date. The DNR keeps a record of all runs. Thanks!


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## SPH

I will ask the next time I see him. I know about where he lives but not being familiar with the area, I do not know what county it is for sure. He is a big hunter and probably knows the C.O.s name also.


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## markbouman

What about the BIGFOOT in Luther swamp?


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## SPH

As far as big foot is concerned, you keep looking and keep us posted if you find anything.

On a different note, I did get a confirmation about the time and place where the cat tracks and deer were found. The location was Mecosta County about a mile from the Isabella border. The second occurance was during the second week of bow season (Roughly October 14).

He did get a report from the DNR officer and will make a copy for me. When I get the report I will let you know the report number and the C.O.'s name.


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## WAUB-MUKWA

> _Originally posted by Hamilton Reef _
> *When you take a walk through the Sleeping Bear Dunes be sure have Lassie at your side. I saw on TV how Lassie responds to a cougar. It was impressive. *


Yea, sad thing about that TV commercial is some think it's real!


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## whitedog

SPH i just read a few of your posts and you and the co in ? have know clue what a lion track looks like a 5" track and a estimated weight of 60 lbs sure isnt any sign of being a lion, a 5" track on a lion would be well in exsecc of 200 lbs man theres 1000's of lion hunters that would love to find a 5 inch track would be a world record for sure, now i would agree that a 5" track on a wolf would weigh 60 to 90 pounds maybe more i havent had the thrill of killing a wolf yet,you have to remember i am a cat hunter and would love to see a good number of lion in this state but i just cant believe there here when one is found here i will jump for joy


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## SPH

I am not a cat hunter and do not know the first thing about cat tracks. This was passed on by a friend and I was just intrigued so I figured I would share it. It was confirmed by the DNR officer that it was a cat track and the measurement was documented. As soon as I get a copy of the C.O.'s writeup I will share its contents. I am a skeptic myself and until I see a dead lion, I will always question the theory.


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## WoodyP

I myself have seen a cougar in Michigan, so I think it's time I chimed in. Approximately 7-9 years ago (in the summer), my wife and I were driving south on M-66 just south of US-10 when a cat approximately 7-8 feet long (with tail) crossed from west to east across M-66 directly in front of us. The cat was all wet looking and kinda dirty gray as if it had just been in swamp water. I would approximate the cat's weight at 100-120 lbs. There is a few miles of pretty wild low land without many homes in that area north of Barryton. After calling the DNR (Don't Need Reality), I was rudely brushed off as a prankster or nut-case. (Just another case of our public servants acting as our masters) 
Very near the same time people west of Howard City (montcalm cty) and other people near Paris (north of Big Rapids in Mecosta Cty) took pictures of cougars from their homes. These pictures were published inlocal newspapers, one of which was the Big Rapids Pioneer. These sightings took place about 35-40 miles apart.
Regards,
Woody


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## whitedog

sph i would like to know who this co is and what makes him the leading expert on lion cause he sure doesnt no a lion track if he estamates a lion size by a track a 5 inch track would bost a lion of great size 180 to maybe over 200 pounds, you dont need some big papper to post it just post his name ill email and talk to his boss you people have to relize you are talking to a person thats hunted mt,lion for a quite a few years now i know well what the sign is and how to read it and yall are leaveing out one very important thing a lion does i will not tell but i have not seen one arm chair biologist in this site that knows what there talking about when it comes to mt,lion at a latter date i will post one thing yall seem to be missing if you truly have lion in your area its simple all male and some she cats do this so try to figure it out ill let you know if you is right even these people that have brought forward the scat have missed it all lion hunters and real biologist look for this sign? ill give yall a hint ted nugent sings about it lol


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## JackpineSavage

I would have to agree that there are a few wild cougars in Michigan. Mainly because of the solid evidence that has been presented ( droppings, tracks, and kills). A good thing that was brought up on the Michigan out of doors show this weekend was the first known sighting of a live Wolverine in the state. The hunters that stumbled upon the animal have a whole role of pictures to prove they arent just a coupple of rummies making up stories. The point is, we cant just say that they arent there based on assumptions.


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## Linda G.

Your posts on this thread don't indicate that you were "on the line" about this issue AT ALL prior to Carney's speech...you started this thread way back on January 28...Carney's speech was February 7, about a week later...it's been pretty obvious right from the beginning of this thread that you believe cougars exist in the wild in Michigan, and that you believe the DNR is covering something up...how come you haven't written anything on this subject?


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## n.pike

Off topic here a little bit........with all the talk about the hunters and hounds, has anyone with dogs gone to an area where there has been a sighting. Or just because they have not seen a cat in their particular area do they disbelieve the existence of cougars?

They quest for evidence and proof thereof has been beat to death, and houndsmen from this site have tossed their opinion into the fracas, but I look at it this way. I personally have seen a cat, and though I cant provide the live documentary of it with a DNR officer in the picture holding a placard with the time and place, along with a notary publics stamp, I absolutely could put a good hound on the track.
I know they exist, seen it with my own two reasonably sober eyes.


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## Linda G.

The Glennie area has a ton of public land, and I'm sure if you made inquiries, you'd find a ton of hound hunters all around the entire region all the time. Our own Rob McCoy has a place in Glennie, and runs his beagles up there all the time. I don't know if a pack of beagles could tree a cougar or not, but I'm sure if they'd ever run into one around there, Rob would know about it...to find out who hunts with hounds in your area, make a couple of phone calls to any local conservation or sportsmans club, your local DNR office, the Michigan Hunting Dog Federation, or the Michigan Bear Hunters Association. I'm sure any of them would be happy to provide you with any information they've got, and I'm sure that area is thoroughly hunted for *****, rabbits, bobcats, coyotes and bears all the time...

I know people who run the South Boardman area, where the cougar reportedly attacked the horses and livestock a year or so ago, all the time (2-3 times a week during the season) for coyotes and bobcats, as well as a number of trappers in that area. No cougar.

I also know a number of people who run Presque Isle County, where a large majority of cougar sightings have been reported. If you've ever participated in a bear or coyote hunt with hounds, you know what kind of ground those dogs cover...and still, no cougar. 

I know that the majority of the members of the Michigan Bear Hunters Association are avidly interested in the subject of cougars, and if any of them had ever treed one, we'd know about it...


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## boehr

n.pike...Without the retoric in this thread. Let me be the first to tell you that I do believe that you have. I do not believe that you have mistakenly identified something else, I believe you if you said you seen a cougar in Michigan. Now, tell me this. Can you say with as much honesty is that it was definity a wild cougar and it was not a escaped pet or something of that nature?

I do get reports of cougars in my District. I do not make fun of those people, I believe what they tell me. After talking to some of them I can and do rule out that they are mistaken. Some I believe them 100% and compile the information. Sometimes we get lucky and it is very time consuming but my officers have been able to find 4 cougars in the last 10 years or so in my District from taking this information seriously, non of which were wild. The last two were just last month.


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## FREEPOP

n. pike, so basically she called you a liar. 
It is obvious what her view is, that there are none and by her statement, it is easy to come to that conclusion.
She could've as easily said "highly unlikely" or something like that.

As for me n. pike, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt


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## Linda G.

I never said anything about anybody being a liar...someone asked for information about how to get some hound hunters into the woods to look for signs of a cougar they've seen, and I tried to help them out with info, and for that I'm accused of calling someone a liar??

Try again...


ok, Freepop, I misunderstood n. pike's post...to which I say, if you have a hound that you can put on a cougar while in the process of legally hunting a coyote, which is the only season open at the moment, or during one of the season's next year, please do...be sure to do everything you can to document it, including have a couple of other witnesses with you, if at ALL possible. Photos, or at least photos of tracks, hair, any hard-copy proof you can provide, that can be looked at by the DNR. Like the wolverine guys did, do your best to keep the cougar treed or cornered and GET SOMEONE LIKE THE DNR, STATE POLICE or other professional out there as quickly as possible!!

I didn't call anyone a liar...see what I mean about outdoor writers being ridiculed all the time?


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## FREEPOP

That word may have been a little strong. But yes, you did misunderstand. What you posted did, in no way agreed with him, more to the contrary.


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## Trophy Specialist

> _Originally posted by Linda G. _
> *you believe the DNR is covering something up...how come you haven't written anything on this subject? *


I started this thread because I was curious about the issue and was looking for information to form an opinion, which is what these forums are ideally suited for. Have you looked at the poll? Interesting to see that most people believe cougars are here despite the DNR spin. As for the DNR covering things up, I wouldn't be surprised. They sure managed to mislead the public and cover up plenty of facts to get the Michigan waters of Lake Erie closed this spring for walleye fishing. On that one the people of Michigan were mislead or downright lied to by DNR managers, biologists, commissioners and COs. That certainly wasn't the first time that the DNR behaved dishonestly. I certainly don't take anything that the DNR spins out as gospel. I have not written about Michigan's cougars because I am not a news reporter and I focus my writing more on what I do best, shooting big bucks and catching lots of big fish. Out of the 1000+ works I've had published, I've only done a few news pieces; the rest were pure hook and bullet.


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## Linda G.

Freepop-please explain what you mean by "what you posted did, in no way agreed with him, more to the contrary"...I don't understand??

Mike-I used to do all feature work, too. But you're not solely restricted to it, no one is. Write something on this and find someone who will buy it. I'm sure there's a lot of editors that would be interested. I thought that was your intent from the beginning-to find out what people thought for research for an article you were doing...I don't know anything about the DNR's stance on walleyes in Lake Erie, so won't comment, but just because you believe they were wrong on that issue is not a reason to write them off entirely as "spinmasters", is it? 

If anything, I'm quite certain that's the label that most employees of the DNR have for outdoor writers...

n.pike-if you were trying to say in your post that you have actually treed a cougar with a hound, then I would ask you if you have any documentation of that...again, witnesses, (most people don't hunt with hounds alone, except maybe for *****?), photos, go back to the house, get a camera, return to the site, take photos of the tracks, anything you could get??

I'd believe you, too, but like boehr says, how do you know it was not an escaped pet? Boehr would be the first to tell you that apparently people are keeping cougars in captivity all over the state.


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## FREEPOP

Mike wrote:



> _Originally posted by n.pike _
> *Off topic here a little bit........with all the talk about the hunters and hounds, has anyone with dogs gone to an area where there has been a sighting. Or just because they have not seen a cat in their particular area do they disbelieve the existence of cougars?
> 
> They quest for evidence and proof thereof has been beat to death, and houndsmen from this site have tossed their opinion into the fracas, but I look at it this way. I personally have seen a cat, and though I cant provide the live documentary of it with a DNR officer in the picture holding a placard with the time and place, along with a notary publics stamp, I absolutely could put a good hound on the track.
> I know they exist, seen it with my own two reasonably sober eyes.
> *


You wrote:


[/list]


> The Glennie area has a ton of public land, and I'm sure if you made inquiries, you'd find a ton of hound hunters all around the entire region all the time. Our own Rob McCoy has a place in Glennie, and runs his beagles up there all the time. I don't know if a pack of beagles could tree a cougar or not, but I'm sure if they'd ever run into one around there, Rob would know about it...to find out who hunts with hounds in your area, make a couple of phone calls to any local conservation or sportsmans club, your local DNR office, the Michigan Hunting Dog Federation, or the Michigan Bear Hunters Association. I'm sure any of them would be happy to provide you with any information they've got, and I'm sure that area is thoroughly hunted for *****, rabbits, bobcats, coyotes and bears all the time...
> 
> I know people who run the South Boardman area, where the cougar reportedly attacked the horses and livestock a year or so ago, all the time (2-3 times a week during the season) for coyotes and bobcats, as well as a number of trappers in that area. No cougar.
> 
> I also know a number of people who run Presque Isle County, where a large majority of cougar sightings have been reported. If you've ever participated in a bear or coyote hunt with hounds, you know what kind of ground those dogs cover...and still, no cougar.
> 
> I know that the majority of the members of the Michigan Bear Hunters Association are avidly interested in the subject of cougars, and if any of them had ever treed one, we'd know about it...


I don't think you have to read between the lines too hard to see that you didn't believe him, because hounds and/or houndspersons haven't supported his sighting.

Or you could say just plainly say that either you believe him or not.


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## Linda G.

I think I've clarified that I believed, upon first reading his post, that he was interested in finding hound hunters who would search for a cougar around his area...I just tried, again, to clarify that...

In fact, if he needs help, I know of two groups of hound hunters that would be happy to come down and help...


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## FREEPOP

Wonderful thing editing. I see you added this or maybe I overlooked it, but it was a ways after his initial post. No biggie.




> I'd believe you, too, but like boehr says, how do you know it was not an escaped pet? Boehr would be the first to tell you that apparently people are keeping cougars in captivity all over the state.



I for one will remain objective as well as keep my eyes and ears open. I have been proven wrong too many times to say: never, always, and words of the like.


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## n.pike

Whew, I felt that emotion thru the screen.

As Boehr stated, they have seen 4 cougars, but they were released pets. That may be the case here. Some of you know the types of people in Glennie, it wouldnt suprise me. 

I know what it was I saw, but I would not want my little rabbit-hunting beagle to tangle with it. Nor would I care to risk a fine rabbit hound of McCoys. I simply stated if there were a serious houndsmen wanting to try, I know where.

There is approx 6000 acres of uninhabited swamp and ridges stretching from five channels dam up past Mckinley, some of the most untouched area in the state. In my 33 years, I can count on one hand the amount of people I have seen hunting in there(other than deer season) Its just plain rough territory.

I am not a theorist or jokester about this, I am just curious. They are a magnificient animal, I'd like to know more about their existence. Pet or not, wouldnt it be cool to find one?

If someone has some hounds to run, I'll carry the camera!


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## n.pike

And buy the beer if we find one


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## FREEPOP

n. pike, just good discussion that keeps me from falling asleep at work.

As far as being cool finding one, pet or not, yes!


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## Trophy Specialist

> _Originally posted by Linda G. _
> *but just because you believe they were wrong on that issue is not a reason to write them off entirely as "spinmasters", is it? *


I'll admit that after more than a dozen bad experienced with DNR staff last year and then to top it off having the Lake Erie fiasco jammed down our throats by some boneheads in the DNR really put me over the edge. At one point, I was so POed that I would have made Bill Moore look like the president of the DNR fan club. I even decided I'd never use the DNR as experts in my articles again. After getting over it (somewhat) I now realize that lumping all the DNR staff into the incompetent category was unfair. The DNR is made up of good and bad people just like any other entity. My attitude now is that I will only give good credit to DNR staff when they have demonstrated their professionalism to me. So far this year, of the eight DNR people I've had contact with, only three have been professionals while five were bad apples. I'm going to keep score and I'd be surprised if half of my contacts turn out good this year. I hope I'm wrong. 

If I ever see a cougar or at least get some photos of cougar sign in Michigan, then I'll write a story on the subject. Until then, I'll leave the cougar stories to folks like you and others that are much better at reporting the outdoor news than I am.


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## rockinmichigan

I'm assuming I should call the DNR if I were to catch or find a couger right, or would I be better off calling the local police department? Never hurts to know that ahead of time just in case.


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## FREEPOP

I had a thought last night. Okay, so say that these cougars are pets that have escaped or are released. Would it be wrong to assume that an animal that was once domesticated, be quite easy to tree or bay with dogs? Wouldn't they have less fear of man and therefore be seen more readily and actually associate them with food, since they have been fed by them?


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## rockinmichigan

FREEPOP, it is possible I suppose, but cougers and animals like that aren't meant to be domesticated. I personally wouldn't keep one as a pet but some people would I guess. They still have the wildness and instinct to hunt and attack when they feel threatened. Look at that tiger that attacked that Sigmund and Freud, I think it was Freud that actually got attacked but that's an example. Tigers are like mountain lions are like alligators are like pythons are like any other predatorial wild animal. No matter if they're in a zoo or in a circus or in your neighbor's garage or in the swamp on the other side of the fence, no matter how much you train and house them, they can be nice one minute but the instinct is always there, even if you get them when they're newborns. So in otherwards, to make a long story short I wouldn't approach one unless I had a bow in one hand, a gun in the other hand, and a camera around my neck in this instance.


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## Kevin Smith

Hey N. Pike

My offer/request that I pm'd ya on Dec 1, 03 is still good.
I could be up there in a few hours with some hounds if there is a sighting or SIGNS found. If I couldn't make it promptly, I know several guys that would beat me there.

Winter is ideal for hunting cats. I have heard from people I consider credible claim to have seen the big cats, released/escaped or wild or otherwise during deer season. So far there is no winter sign of them in those areas. Nobody has been able to show me a track yet. I put the word out every winter as it would be the best for finding them. I hunt coyotes and bobcat in the deer yards and cedar swamps, which is exactly where lions would go - with the food. There would be tracks, and kills, and some other signs. Perhaps most don't know some of the signs when they see them. People activity is limited in these areas then too except for primarily houndsmen when the snow gets deep. Most of us strap on snowshoes and cover a lot of ground, but no lions.

Never knew there was a wolverine less than an hour from home either LOL I WANT to believe. Show me a track. Even an old track - I will put on snowshoes and walk it out until its jumped or fresh enough for the hounds to take. This can be tough in deep snow when there are lots of trails plowed thru deer yards but it can be done.

Sidenote - I remember a few years ago a guy's girlfriend got injured/killed by one of the African lions he had caged in the backyard - somewhere in lower MI (Saginaw/Bridgeport/??? can't remember)
I think a lot of critters get turned out, prolly a lot right after the Large Carnivore Act too.


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## rockinmichigan

Don't mean to change the subject or anything, but if you want to talk about a small world, my brother's name is Kevin Smith. Its amazing that with the amount of people in the metro Toledo/NW Ohio/Southeast Michigan area that there aren't more people with his or my name, but there are a couple other people with the same birthname as me, at least first and last name anyways. I would like to get into bobcat hunting, when's the next season start for 'em do you know? I've gotta get myself situated as far as ammo and all that fun stuff, but I'm hoping to do that this spring. Once again, didn't mean to change the subject, all apologies.


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## LandBarge

> _Originally posted by FREEPOP _
> *I had a thought last night. Okay, so say that these cougars are pets that have escaped or are released. Would it be wrong to assume that an animal that was once domesticated, be quite easy to tree or bay with dogs? Wouldn't they have less fear of man and therefore be seen more readily and actually associate them with food, since they have been fed by them? *


...(DETROIT FREE PRESS 11/20/03) the same thought occurred to me. In his account of the Eleanor Comings (Park Service volunteer) experience at Sleeping Bear, she related how the cat seemed to be more interested in satisfying its own curiosity of her than anything else. She never felt threatened but tells how it followed her for a bit, crossed the path in front of her, then paced her at 3 to 5 feet from the edge of the trail for about 20 minutes. That sure sounds like a cat thatÕs been around humans before. 

IMHO it should be fairly obvious that we do have the critters here. I'm just waiting for proof that any of 'em are wild and if any of them are descendents of what was once an animal native to Michigan. MWC believes so based on its research but I would really like to see more research by more organizations.


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## FREEPOP

Landbarge, thanks for replying, I thought I was being ignored or that what I asked made to much sense. Thanks for the rest of the story, I wasn't aware of that.

Okay, another thought provoking question on a species thought to be non-existant in Michigan. Have they obtained hair or scat from the wolverine, and have they determined how long it's been here or where it came from? I've heard the theories, about garbage trucks and ice bridge, but has anything been confirmed?
Where is it now? Did it just vanish? Why hasn't it been seen again, as they run dogs there all the time?


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## n.pike

Kevin, we may have to do that. I was hunting the edge of the cedar swamp Saturday, saw a lot of bobcat tracks. I would like to get back in a few miles to the deer yards to look for a bigger cat.


What did happen to that wolverine? Wasn't the DNR going to capture it to find out its origin?


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## LandBarge

> _Originally posted by FREEPOP _
> *Okay, another thought provoking question on a species thought to be non-existant in Michigan. Have they obtained hair or scat from the wolverine, and have they determined how long it's been here or where it came from? I've heard the theories, about garbage trucks and ice bridge, but has anything been confirmed?
> Where is it now? Did it just vanish? Why hasn't it been seen again, as they run dogs there all the time? *


FREEPOP,
I noticed a couple of recently started threads on the General Hunting board that deal with wolverines. Another animal that I have many questions about and will be checking out.
Regards,
LB


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## rockinmichigan

About wolverines, this might sound like the most insane reason why I believe they're still in Michigan, but here goes: I think that since the University of Michigan is still known as the Wolverines and not the Warblers is something to think about. Okay, on a serious note, I couldn't tell you about wolverines. I'm willing to believe that they're around. I almost buy cougers being in Michigan more then wolverines, but I wouldn't doubt wolverines still being in the state. I have no evidence, no nothing to back me up on either one, I'm just going on my personal theories. The reason why I believe cougers is in Michigan is like I said before, the prey is abundant for them, like deer, rabbits, squirrels, fish and birds. Other stuff too. I wouldn't doubt it one bit that cougers are around. Once again, I personally can't back it up but just theory and belief.


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## Linda G.

as I've said before on this, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs about the existence of a wild population of cougars in the state of Michigan. I fully believe that it's POSSIBLE that one or two may be running around some of the more remote areas of the UP, as I've said on a number of occasions and right here on this thread a while back...

But you need to look into the history of wolverines in this state before you talk about wolverines "still being" in this state...they have NEVER been documented as existing at all in Michigan-the last mention of them at all in history is, as was mentioned by someone else on this forum as being written in a school textbook somewhere, in 1836, when it was believed the people of Michigan fought like wolverines in the Battle of Toledo...another rumor is that we are called the Wolverine state because of the number of wolverine furs that passed through colonial Michigan trading posts from Canada...but wolverines have NEVER been found to exist in the wild at all in Mchigan.


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## rockinmichigan

I thought Michigan was called the Great Lake State? You know, like California is the Golden State. Shows you how much I know about Michigan, and I've been living here almost all my life.


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## mike delp

Linda,

Just a note on the wolverine: I've seen the preserved heart of the last wolverine that existed in Michigan....a zoo specimen. A good friend who is a field biologist has it on his desk...a good reminder to keep a clean heart.

Last summer's alleged cougar sighting was only about a mile from my place on the Boardman, but I've never seen one....lots of bobcats out that way. I'm really curious, but agree with you that someone would have seen one by now there is so much dwindling habitat.


yrs,

Mike


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## Linda G.

There's been a number of wolverines kept in captivity in Michigan over the years. Is that heart from the wolverine that was at the TC zoo, Mike? I know it died a few years back, wondered what they did with it, I figured one of the taxidermists around here had it, but never thought about what they might do with the internal organs...


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## mike delp

Linda,

I might be mistaken in my post, then. I thought it belonged to an animal that died years ago...but if there was one in T.C. that would negate my post....heh....

yrs,

Mike


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## Linda G.

I'm not sure when the TC wolverine died...the last time I saw it was probably at least 10 years ago, tho...so that heart could well be from the TC wolverine. They had it a long time, but you could never get a good look at it, in those days, they let you go into the buildings and see their nests from the inside, and he spent all of his time in the summer when the zoo was open inside the log they had for him as a nest. Asleep 90% of the time.


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## Hamilton Reef

Linda,
I was hoping I might see you at the Grand Rapids Sport Fishing Show this evening, but you were not at the MON booth. Will have to bs about cougars at another time.


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## rockinmichigan

How long is the Grand Rapids Sport Fishing Show lasting? Was it last night only?


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## Hamilton Reef

http://www.showspan.com/gcs/index.html
There is a nice playful cougar mount in the taxidermy show area.


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## Linda G.

unfortunately, Tom, I don't work the GR show anymore-it's been scheduled the same weekend as the TC show for the last few years, so I'm running the MON booth there. I'll be there all weekend, from 3 pm today until 5 pm Sunday. 

C'mon up and say howdy...the TC show is the best little show in the state. Room to actually walk around, and chances to actually talk to the vendors...

Traverse City Hunt/Fish Expo


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## rockinmichigan

I'm checking out both links as we speak, pretty interesting stuff. I'm down here in Southeast Michigan, so I don't know what the chances are of me being able to make it to either Grand Rapids or Traverse City this weekend, but perhaps next year I'll be there for sure.


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## DuckDog

We saw a cougar during the second week in July last year. It crossed the road in about 30 yards in front of us. This was on M-123 about 20 minutes North of the bridge. It was almost as long as the highway lane was wide. It had a very long tail, and looked exactly like a cougar. There is no way that this was a bobcat, lynx, or bear as they all have short tails, and are much smaller. This animal was seen in the evening, but during daylight. We were really stunned by the sighting, and actually pulled over to the side of the road to calm down and talk about it. We could see it clear enough to identify it as a cougar. There was not enough time for the camera, and we didn't report the sighting to anyone. I guess it could be wild, or released, there is no way to tell, except that it was not wearing a collar. I have heard about poachers paying to have captive cougars being released in Michigan to hunt with dogs.

You guys can call me a liar, but I know what we saw.
DuckDog


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## Kevin Smith

duckdog

".....I have heard about poachers paying to have captive cougars being released in Michigan to hunt with dogs...."


LMAO I have not heard that one! LMAO some more. The things that city-ots (cidiots?) come up with and spread around.

Not poking anything at you duckdog! That is just a new one to me and I found it hilarious. Don't take it personal - I know you didn't come up that you just heard it.


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## DuckDog

Kevin,
An avid houndsman told me about this.


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## rockinmichigan

I agree on the fact that there hasn't been any caught or found dead. Just the eyewitness accounts here and there, but no pictures or whatever. I still wouldn't doubt that there's a few roaming the state, but just a hunch and that's all.


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## Trophy Specialist

> _Originally posted by rockinmichigan _
> *but no pictures or whatever. *


There are pictures and video of cougars in Michigan.


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## rockinmichigan

Are there? If so, the better proof would be the actual couger, dead or alive, being brought in. But if there's photos and video then its better then nothing.


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## Hamilton Reef

With the computer programs available today it is easy to doctor and alter photos/videos to show any bigfoot purple people eater walking with a cougar, or the leash can be drawn out as they do with the cables that allow actors to fly through the air.

The only exceptions allowed would be another wolverine photo incident with several individuals at the same time or a dead cat for complete autopsy examination.


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## rockinmichigan

I was thinking the same thing Hamilton Reef, that's why you'd be better off calling the DNR on the spot when you come across a dead one or trapped, etc.


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## Ferg

Max Holden was key player in plover effort 
By MARLA MCMACKIN
Record-Eagle staff writer


EMPIRE - Max Holden spends a lot of time on the trails that wind through Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore, many of which he helped design.
But after 40 years with the National Park Service - 27 managing the natural resources at Sleeping Bear - Holden says he is ready to hang up his ranger hat.
"The parts I love, I'll still hang on to, the beaches, hiking in the forest," he said. "I'm not letting go of that. I certainly plan on spending a lot of time at the park."
Holden's career with the National Park Service began in the 1960s when he signed on as a ranger at Isle Royal National Park. 
After various research and planning posts that followed, Holden jumped at the chance to transfer to Sleeping Bear when a natural resources management position opened in 1977.
"I had come to the area before and fell in love with it," the Jackson native and University of Michigan graduate said. "It was so rich in resources, the scenery is just spectacular and you have the comforts of the Traverse City area. It's an ideal place to be."
Park superintendent Dusty Shultz said Holden has been a compelling force at the park through its first management plan, establishing a relationship with the state Department of Natural Resources to control the white-tailed deer population on North Manitou Island and restoring habitat for the endangered piping plover.
"He has perhaps done more to protect the park's resources than any other individual employee," she said. "He's a great worker and he'll be missed."
Holden said he takes pride in being part of a successful effort to restore the island's vegetation and help the piping plover again thrive in the park.
The bird's numbers were down to only 12 pair in the Great Lakes region in 1986, he said, but has rebounded to 50 pair, most of them in Michigan.
"Sleeping Bear has about 13 pair now," Holden said. "There's a long way to go, but it's a remarkable beginning to their recovery."
While the park drew recent attention for cougar sightings, Holden said he has not seen one of the big cats in all the years he roamed the trails.
"We've had lots of reports and some seem very real, very credible," he said. "Others are just people who get carried away with maybe wanting to see one."
Holden doesn't know what to make of the sightings, but said the park faces a number of challenges if the reports are true, such as determining where the cats come from and how to deal with their presence.
But on April 3, Holden will leave those questions to other park personnel so he can travel and spend more time with his dog, Mosey.
Along with Holden's retirement, the National Park Service also noted length of service awards for Shultz and Leigh Evans, each with 30 years of service, and Tom Davison, Kim Mann, Tom Mountz and Kym Mukavetz, who celebrate 20 years with the parks service



26 years walking around SB - no sightings.....

ferg....


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## Bucktail Butch

> Holden doesn't know what to make of the sightings, but said the park faces a number of challenges if the reports are true, such as determining where the cats come from and how to deal with their presence


As I have posted before, you can count on the Park Service to use the cougar uproar to their advantage in their ongoing quest for the Wilderness designation, the closing of thousands of acres of public land to all but the hardiest hikers and the altering of existing plantlife, animals and fish within the park. That's how they'll deal with their presence, regardless of where they come from, if they can convince enough people in decision making positions that the cougars really exist.
Personally, if the cougars should prove to be real, I hope they eat all the piping plovers and wipe their a$$e$ with pitcher thistles. Maybe that will resolve a lot of issues of threatened and endangered species.


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## Utahan

I am almost kicking myself for getting envolved in this debate, and I will be the first to say that I haven't read the whole thing, seven pages is just too much for me.

However, has anyone brought up the pamphelt going around about cougars in MI? Who put this out? I was in the Isabella county animal shelter the other week, and there was a copy hanging on the bulletin board.

Utahan


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## Linda G.

Their propaganda, er, brochure on the cougar has been out since last fall. I first saw it in, of all places, Cabela's...

They're also looking for cougar trackers, too, folks, for $75 a pop for their "training sessions"-only $50 if you're already a member of MWC...


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## Randy Kidd

I have to admit I needed proof that there were cougars in Michigan, then I had lunch with the Easter bunny and he told me that those damn cats have been chasing him around for years now, Had to beat them off with his basket more than once. He'd been a goner once for sure until Mighty mouse swooped in and carried him to safety.. I now believe  

Maybe


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## rockinmichigan

Tell Mighty Mouse that his grandpa Mickey called, he wants his cheese back.


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## eyemaster

I know for a fact there are big cats in michigan, but the dnr keeps saying there are not. I have only seen two cats in the wild and both where in curtis area on m-28 just before 421. The reason I say this is fact is I went to lake state for wildlife bio as a major. I know how to indentify wildlife, and Isaw them w/my own two eye. I have 20/15 vision thats better than 20/20. so people dont let them fool you they are there and can be dangerous


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## rockinmichigan

I tell you what I've heard and what I've been told on Toledo's ABC TV station, WTVG Channel 13 website, http://www.13abc.com is that there was a mother and a couple of cubs seen in Ottawa Lake, MI in Monroe County. I haven't seen the article or whatever, but I guess there is photos and video of it. I don't know if its still there though, I haven't had a lot of time to go there, or even if its true because I've only heard it from one person and I don't watch the local TV stations that much, but I guess the cats were seen along the MI-OH border around Sylvania, OH and Ottawa Lake, MI. Supposedly it was on farmland, away from any livestock and stuff, but I'd have to see if its still somewhere on the site or on any other site.


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## KEN C

There on the move again, must be starting there migration north for deer season. :lol: 
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3644587/detail.html
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3651751/detail.html


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## boehr

No, not migrating to the north but because it is getting close to hunting seasons they migrate into the cities where there is no hunting. :lol: I personally do not doubt one was seen but I do not believe it was a "wild" cougar. I think one being seen in areas like Sterling Hgts., has much more credibility that there are many pet cougars that get loose for a short period from their owners.


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## Linda G.

a pet cougar being legally kept in northern Michigan...she's one of just a few left from about 60-70 about 5-10 years ago, according to a veterinarian who is well known with pet cougar fans as a big cat vet...I took this, and two rolls of other very good photos of her, last Monday, at less than 2 feet away...so when the MWC says there are about 80 cougars in Michigan, they're probably about right, except for one thing- they're not wild cougars.

Nina was born and raised in captivity in Michigan.


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## SR-Mechead

Trophy Specialist said:


> There has been a lot of press both ways in recent month, so what do you think; Do wild cougars live in Michigan?
> 
> Now after 15 pages of bashing one another ,the question is are there wild cougars in Michigan. About a month ago the dnr was flying planes very low in Wis and when we I asked at the bait shop what was going on they said a cougar was spotted in the area. Now there are no fences at the border of Mich and Wis. So are there big cats .For those of you that saw them good for you,and for those of you that say there are not cougars in Mich get outdoors more.


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## rockinmichigan

I always say "Why not?" when it comes to cougers being in Michigan, because there's more then enough food for them. Hell, we have more deer then we know what to do with, plenty of fields, wooded areas, and lakes/ponds/streams/rivers, and farms that have big food for them-cattle, horses, etc. There's also small food sources like rabbits, squirrels, turkeys, and other birds. I don't think there's a lot roaming around, all it takes is a couple or a few to cross the Wisconsin border into Michigan or somebody to let pet cougers free into the wild.


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## ESOX

I saw a cougar up at Linda G's place last week. Trout saw it too. It was the tawny phase of the pygmy cougar. It looked real cool in that rhinestone collar too........

Never knew cougars would be pursued by a coyote, but this one had a 'yote hot on it's trail.


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## KEN C

I wish somebody would hit one with there car, so we can find the owners of these lost pets
http://www.lenconnect.com/articles/2004/08/15/news/news03.txt


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## SR-Mechead

Linda I disagree with you saying your not questioning are there cougars. The thread started 16 pages ago and it said ( Do wild cougars live in Michigan)


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## markbouman

Enough already ..... are you REALLY that bored?


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## dogjaw

:help: 
Why does the Michigan DNR have a cougar/lynx observation report? 
DNR observation report 
Why would the NRC "Committee of the Whole" discuss cougar?
NRC Agenda March 7-8, 2001 
Why are cougar listed on the DNR protected species list?
Protected Species


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## KEN C

dog jaw
#1 a Lynx was found in the UP last year. That is a fact. They need a form to follow up on big cat sightings if there real or not.
#2 With all the news on cougars and MWF saying there are cougars. The NRC finds it neccassary to address the issue
#3 Just like the Wolf, cougars are considered threatened species in Michigan. No differrent than any of the sorrounding states Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wis, etc etc.


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## Ferg

ferg....


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## FREEPOP

That's a mule deer, you can tell by the tail :chillin:


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## ESOX

Oh great, shall I start another thread about Mulies in MI???

Could have fooled me, those look like michigan trees, just like the ones in the video......:lol:


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## Ferg

I'd try to breath a little 'new' life into the thread :lol: :lol: :yikes:  


ferg....


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## Buddy Lee

Ferg said:


> ferg....


That's one of the coolest pictures I've seen! :yikes:


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## Airoh

Here's one from the Pigeon River State forest area.


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## rockinmichigan

Where's the Pigeon River State Park at? The other question I have is if you were to shine light on the cat and deer, wouldn't that spook them at all? I don't totally doubt the authenticity of the picture, but just seems odd, to me anyways. I would just think they'd be spooked unless they were hanging out by a cabin with lights all over.


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## Linda G.

You're hysterical...you take everything far too seriously...those photos were doctored, whatever the original was of was taken through a deer cam, or a stealth cam, or you know, those little cameras everyone is buying that everyone else is stealing...  

The Pigeon River Country State Forest is located north of Gaylord, and it's not full of cougars, believe me...


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## KEN C

all the Elk are getting eat by the mountain lions in the Pigeon river area. Its all part of the plan by the DNR to get rid of the pesky elk


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## Trophy Specialist

I just watched the new CD that the MWC released last week. It shows the video of two cougars in a picked corn field in Monroe County. MWC had the video analyzed by Future Media and they determined that the cats in the video were in fact cougars. The MWC also had the tape analyzed by a forensic expert who has over 25 years of experience in crime scene investigations with the Michigan State Police. This expert, whose specialty is video analysis, agreed with Future Media that the cats on the tape are indeed cougars. Any thinking person that sees this new evidence will have no doubt that two cougars walked across a Monroe County corn field last year.


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## rockinmichigan

Trophy Specialist, I heard about them confirming that they were cougers. They were sited in the township next time me, in Whiteford Township. I live in Bedford Township. I think its pretty cool to know that they were there, now to see about finding them again and getting them to some people that know what they are.


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## KEN C

Trophy Specialist said:


> I just watched the new CD that the MWC released last week. It shows the video of two cougars in a picked corn field in Monroe County. MWC had the video analyzed by Future Media and they determined that the cats in the video were in fact cougars. The MWC also had the tape analyzed by a forensic expert who has over 25 years of experience in crime scene investigations with the Michigan State Police. This expert, whose specialty is video analysis, agreed with Future Media that the cats on the tape are indeed cougars. Any thinking person that sees this new evidence will have no doubt that two cougars walked across a Monroe County corn field last year.


MICHIGAN "COUGAR" VIDEOS SHOW HOUSECATS

ECN News, 8/23/04



On July 26, 2004, the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy released a video-production, which purported to document two separate incidents of wild cougars caught on videotape in Michigan. The first video was taken in Monroe County in April 2004. It featured two animals and was filmed by Carol Stokes. The second video involved a single animal from Wexford County in 1997. The Monroe County video has received considerable media attention in recent weeks. The story ran on a number of local television news broadcasts, as well as in several major newspapers. 



In keeping with its mission of collecting and evaluating evidence of cougars in the Midwest, ECN coordinated an independent expert review of these videos. In consulting with some of the most prominent zoologists and cougar biologists in North America, and following a review of available literature on cougar behavior and physiology, it has been concluded that the animals depicted in both video segments are clearly house cats. 



Monroe County Video

There are several very telling physical characteristics and behaviors that indicate that these animals are housecats. The body conformation is consistent with domestic cats, not cougars (i.e., head profile, arched backs, rounded bodies, very short necks and relatively short tails). Their movements are clearly those of house cats, as they walk with relatively short, choppy strides and with their backs in a slightly arched position. Most importantly, in the 70 seconds in which they are featured on the tape, BOTH cats raise their tails vertically and appear to spray urine backwards (while their tails twitch). This behavior has not been documented in captive or wild cougars of either sex. It is characteristic of domestic cats (See expert quotes and publications cited below).



Wexford County Video
There are also several telling physical characteristics and behaviors that indicate the Wexford County animal is a house cat (i.e., arched back, round/stocky body, relatively large head, large pointed ears, short muzzle, small feet, very short neck, relatively short tail, coat pattern and color). The animal's movements are also consistent with house cat (short choppy stride and an arched back position). 


Expert Opinions
ECN consulted with numerous zoologists and cougar experts in conjunction with this analysis. The following were typical responses. 



Mark L Zornes

Arizona Game & Fish Dept.

Small Game/Predator-Furbearer Biologist



"I have reviewed the tape and all cats shown are obviously house cats. The photo of the "family" group and the single animal prior to and after exhibit traits and behaviors consistent with house cats, not cougars. I have never observed cougars lifting their tails in an erect manner as seen on the video, and have yet to find a single cougar biologist that has witnessed this behavior. Cougars are specifically documented as the only large wild felid that does not "spray" to mark territory (note this behavior in the Stokes film). The "humped-backed" posture exhibited by all cats in the video is not consistent with cougar behavior, but is with house cats. The size comparison footage from the "Stoke's film" and the single cat are very suspect."



Chuck Anderson. Ph.D.

Trophy Game Section

Wyoming Game and Fish Department



Regarding the Michigan cougar video, all of the cats video taped look like the "kitty" variety to me. The erect tail and humped back is not consistent with cougar behavior/physiology. Estimated size of the object video taped can be significantly off if the distance to the subject is not exact. I suspect others have pointed this out, but in addition to the video taped cats, the tape also includes a still photograph of a cougar I suspect is a captive animal. This cat exhibited significant belly fat, which I have never seen on a wild cougar. Feel free to cite my opinion and let me know if you have any additional questions.



Darrell Land

Florida Panther Section Leader

Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission



In my humble opinion, based on 20 years of experience with Florida panthers and investigating Florida panther sightings, I believe the video referenced below is of 2 housecats. Cougars/panthers/mountain lions are not capable of holding their tails in the manner of the cats in the video. Also, I do not believe that video accurately portrays the size of the cats. In fact, it appears that the cats are of the same height, if not shorter than, the stubble in the field and I suspect that stubble to be less than 18 inches tall.



Norah B. Fletchall

Co-Chair AZA Felid Taxon Advisory Group

Assistant Zoo Director-John Ball Zoo 



"I have reviewed the alleged cougar video on the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy website at www.miwildlife.org. The video of the two felids across a field taken in eastern Michigan do not appear to be cougars. First of all the distance and poor resolution of the video makes it impossible for me to accurately judge the size of the two animals. In addition, the video comparisons of the cats with nearby trees, etc. is unconvincing and confusing. The movements of the cats, particularly the spraying behavior does not look like any cougars I have ever seen. The movements of the cats are much more akin to house cats than mountain lions. The animals bodies do not appear to be long enough to be cougars and body size is not heavy enough. Neither cat seems to notice the camera. An elusive species such as a mountain lion would be much more wary when moving along the edge of an open field than either one of these cats. Coat pattern/color is not distinguishable to me at all. Based upon the above I do not think these cats are mountain lions-they appear to me to be house cats. 



As for the other video of the cat moving through the snow it is not a mountain lion. Size, movements and coat pattern and color all appear to me to be that of a domestic long haired cat enjoying a winter romp in the snow!



I did show the video to three of our staff members (all three have experience working with captive cougars including a former zookeeper who cared for our cougars daily for twenty years). None of them thought the cats in the video were cougars."



Dave Moody

Trophy Game Coordinator

Wyoming Game and Fish Department



After reviewing the video you provided, it is clear to me that the individuals are house cats, not cougars. I've been working with large predators for over ten years and have never heard of, or observed, a cougar lift it's tail the way these cats do. It's my understanding that cougars do not spray in this fashion to mark territories. Additionally, the various body movements, postures, and shape that these cats exhibit (arching back, head profile, and extended gut) are not consistent with cougars.



David S. Maehr, Ph.D.

University of Kentucky

Department of Forestry

(Former Florida Panther Researcher)



"I looked at the video and it really looks like house cats to me. One of the cats appears very light in color, and the way they wave their tails around is not that of a cougar. The argument regarding size relative to a tree is bogus because there does not appear to be a way of showing exactly where these animals are relative to it. Besides, they just don't look like big cats to me."



Mark Jenkins

Proprietor

Cooper's Rock Mountain Lion Sanctuary

"I checked out the video and I also think they are housecats. The movements are all wrong for a large cats, and in twelve years of daily observation of cougars I have never seen one raise its tail vertically and spray like the other cat species I have worked with." 



Relevant Literature:



Sunquist, M., & Sunquist, F. (2002). Wild Cats of the World. Chicago: University of Chicago Press

Wemmer, C., & Scow, K. (1977). Communication in the Felidae with emphasis on scent marking and contact patterns. In How Animals Communicate, ed. T.A. Sebeok, 749-766. Bloomington: Indiana University Press.



Acknowledgements:



We would like to thank all of the professionals who assisted us in our review of the video taped evidence. We are also indebted to Yale Universitys Kline Science Library, which provided ECN access to its extensive collection of literature on felid behavior and physiology.



MICHIGAN "WILD COUGAR SKULL" CAME FROM CAPTIVE ANIMAL NAMED "SASHA"

ECN News, 8/23/04

ECN conducted an independent investigation into the origins of a cougar skull found by woodcutters in Chippewa County, Michigan in 2001. This skull has been cited in numerous press accounts as evidence of a "wild, breeding population" of cougars in Michigan. It was also featured prominently in a July 26, 2004 video released by the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy. 

Our investigation revealed that the skull originated from Randy Desormeaus Northland Taxidermy Shop, which is located adjacent to the property on which the skull was found. In life, the animal was a de-clawed pet female cougar named "Sasha". According to proprietor Randy Desormeau, Sasha was owned by a man on Neebish Island in the St. Mary's River between the eastern end of the Upper Peninsula and Ontario. The owner, who does not want his name made public, bought Sasha from a breeder as a nine-day-old cub. She died from choking on a piece of turkey. 

According to Randys adult son Brian, the owner had taken Sashas carcass to the shop to be mounted. Not realizing he could have asked for the entire skeleton to be returned, Sasha's owner told Randy he could have it. Randy tossed the skull out his back door for the bugs to clean. According to Brian Desormeau, "Something dragged it off." When the story of the "wild" cougar skull hit the local newspaper, Brian said, "we all laughed". 

Followers of The Networks Breaking News Page should not be surprised about the origin of the skull, as we posted an item titled "Michigan Skull Likely Came From Captive Cat" dated October 2002. Linked to this headline was a December 2001 letter to the Rose Lake Wildlife Disease Laboratory from the University of Michigan's Museum of Zoology. Signed by zoologists from both U-M and MSU, the letter states in part, "Given the animal's apparent age, we were surprised at how unworn the animal's cheek-teeth were. . . . This suggests to us (but certainly does not prove) that the animal may have been an escaped captive" (Lundrigan and Myers 2001). This letter can still be viewed on the ECN website at http://www.easterncougarnet.org/michskull.htm.

Sasha's skull currently resides at the DNRs Rose Lake office in Lansing. ECN is working on behalf of the Desormeaus to have it returned to them.


----------



## Linda G.

I believe what Mike is referring to is a press release put out by the MWC a week or so ago refuting all of the opinions of the experts cited by ECN, Ken. 

Just a desperate effort by MWC to try to re-establish some of the credibility they've lost over these videos, I think...I know the president of Future Media, and although I have no doubt he's an expert on video, I doubt he's an expert on cougars. All of this controversy can't be good for his reputation, either. 

Couldn't tell you anything about the forensic expert who has taken a stand against all of these other reputable cougar experts, but I would assume his expertise is in people, not cougars. 

Whatever...the cougar camera study has been going on now for more than two months in Sleeping Bear Dunes, guess what...no cougars. I'll stay with that story, and if they see any cougars, you all will be the first to know!!


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## Trophy Specialist

Linda G. said:


> I know the president of Future Media, and although I have no doubt he's an expert on video, I doubt he's an expert on cougars. All of this controversy can't be good for his reputation, either.


Linda, you seem to be inferring that Future Media and the forensic expert are eithor incompitent or part of some elaborate con job orchestrated by the MWC?

Future Media and the forensic expert determined without a shadow of a doubt that the cats were not house cats based on their size. A house cat stands about 12 at the shoulder. The larger of the two cats in the video was proven to be around 30 at the shoulder, hardly the size of a house cat. You don't have to be a cougar expert to estable the size of an object in a vidio, however MWC also had the video examined by a noted cougar expert and he concluded that the cats on the tape behaved like cougars. I guarantee that anybody that has any degree of intelligence and open mindedness, that sees the new MWC CD release that shows the analysis of the cougars, would conclude that two cougars were in that corn field last summer. What we don't know is where they came from.


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## Linda G.

in your initial statement here, you didn't say Bob Bishop is an expert on cougars, you said he's an expert on video analysis, which I concurred with. Show me his cougar credentials.

Same for the statement about the forensics specialist, which notes he has worked with crime scene investigations with the MSP-I would assume those were HUMAN investigations, right? Show me his cougar credentials.

Who is the cougar expert you mention in your post above? You didn't mention that person in your first post.

"Anybody that has any degree of intelligence..."??? So you're inferring that all of us who would like scientific PROOF are idiots??

You're starting to sound just like a certain person in MWC, Mike...


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## KEN C

TS. Really you have to be kidding about this to discredit the 10 true cougar experts that ECN consulted to review the video(s). These scientist are respected experts in there field. MWC has yet to provide any proof of cougar exsistentence at all. The fact that in that video they use a skull from a captive cougar is proof enough that it is a fabricated video.


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## Trophy Specialist

You dont have to be a math-major to know that 2 + 2 equals 4. By the same token, you dont have to be a cougar expert to establish an objects size in a video. For that, all that is required is expertise at video analysis which Future Media and Dave Tomshend are certainly qualified at. Perhaps the most convincing evidence that dismisses the house cat theory comes when the forensics expert, Dave Tomshend shows a house cat tied in place in the same spot in the field as where the cougars were. Then, at the focal length and from the same recording position as the cougar video was shot, he shows what a house cat looks like on tape. You can barely even see the tinny thing a quarter of a mile away. 

The expert that said that it was cougars in the tape is Dr. Jim Sikarskie who has studied cougars and other wildlife and is a professor at MSU. 

Even the DNR is now backpedaling on their official stance on wild cougars in Michigan. In the current issue of Woods-N-Water News, an article on Beck Humphries quotes her as saying that it is the DNRs position there are definitely wild cougars in Michigan. She even said that DNR biologists have even seen them. Now thats a major turn of events folks. People that keep saying that there are no cougars in MI are becoming a smaller and smaller contingent every year.


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## Ron84

Linda G. said:


> in your initial statement here, you didn't say Bob Bishop is an expert on cougars, you said he's an expert on video analysis, which I concurred with. Show me his cougar credentials.
> 
> Same for the statement about the forensics specialist, which notes he has worked with crime scene investigations with the MSP-I would assume those were HUMAN investigations, right? Show me his cougar credentials.


Since when does someone have to be an expert in the object they are measuring via video analysis to have their statement count? I suppose we should discredit them using the tree to sync all the pics because he isn't a tree expert either.  



> Who is the cougar expert you mention in your post above? You didn't mention that person in your first post.


Did you even watch the video? Granted, I can't remember the guys name either, but the only way you could be clueless on who he is refering to is if you have never watched the new video. :16suspect


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## Linda G.

Do you know about the controversy surrounding a wildlife bio who I believe is now retired who was very popular in his area with local residents who claimed to have seen a cougar in Alcona County? That's what Becky was talking about. 

Again, I believe he's now retired, as is the bio, who was also very popular with the people up there, in the UP. Who knows what they saw, perhaps they did see cougars, perhaps not, but the DNR was not going to stand in the face of their own personnel that were very popular with the people, which would only lead to more bad attitudes against the entire agency.

It's called political correctness, and Becky's very, very good at it. She's a former wildlife bio who had to deal with this issue for many years before coming to Lansing, she knows what she's dealing with. 

I don't think anyone's ever said, including me, that there couldn't possibly be any wild cougars in Michigan...ever. 

I do have proof here of four that are still being kept in captivity in the private sector, at one time as recently as 1989, when the Big Cat Act went into effect, there was something like 65-70 captive cats being kept in captivity LEGALLY, who knows how many illegally. 

But we want proof of wild cougars, and that's more than a video, more than accreditation from people who aren't cougar experts, and more than articles in a magazine.


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## KEN C

Yes I watched the video and it was very poor quality and it did not look like a cougar, but I am not an expert. Now the experts that did review it from variuos wildlife agencies across the USA all came to the conclusion of house cat. I tend to beleive the experts that live in cougar areas and work with cougars. Who are you going to believe a guy in Bath Michigan where cougars have been extinct for over 100 years or a Guy in the Florida everglades where there are real cats  or a guy in North Dakota or Idaho







where again there are real cats


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## Guest

Trophy Specialist said:


> You dont have to be a math-major to know that 2 + 2 equals 4. By the same token, you dont have to be a cougar expert to establish an objects size in a video.


Actually, there had to have been a lot of guess work there. In order for their analysis to be correct they would have had to know the EXACT distance that the cats were from the camera. The size comparisons are junk unless all objects were the exact distace away, and they have no idea of the distance of "cougars" other than taking a guess. At that point all science has been removed from the analysis.

I personally know one of the MDNR biologists who is working to try to collar a Michigan cougar. He responds to many of the "cougar sightings" in the NW, W, and central southern lower with trained dogs. So far he has been at it for 14 months and the dogs have yet to even find cougar scent, let alone actually run or tree one.

Everybody should take the time to attend one of the MWC's seminars on cougars in Michigan (I have). They are nothing more then fundraiser events. "Please contribute to the MWC so that we can help protect this majestic animal". Anyone who attends these meetings understands that the MWC has other interests when it comes to cougars in MI ($$$).


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## Wallywalleye

A freind of mine has a picture of a cougar standing on their front porch looking in the window.That was up in Ossineke, near Alpena. Another freind said a DNR employee told him that they think there may be as many as 9 cougars in the dead stream swamp area near Houghton Lake. Can't confirm this but I saw the picture from Ossineke. Interesting isn't it.


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## Linda G.

Could you possibly borrow that photo and scan it for us, or ask your friend to scan it? If neither of you has access to a scanner, you can find one at your local library...I'd love to see that photo, if you don't know how to post it, get hold of me via either pm or email and I'll post it for you...thanks!


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## Trophy Specialist

When Dave Tomshend did his video analysis, he measured out the exact distance from where the video was taken to where the cougars were standing/walking. The cougars were on the edge of the woods, so their location is easily discernable. They were also standing right in front of trees, where the diameter was used to determine the size of the cats.

Here's an updated map of courgar sightings: LOL


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## Guest

Wallywalleye said:


> Another freind said a DNR employee told him that they think there may be as many as 9 cougars in the dead stream swamp area near Houghton Lake. Can't confirm this


Once again, more hearsay. This is how the bigfoot rumers spread so quickly.




Wallywalleye said:


> Interesting isn't it.


I'll give you that, it is VERY interesting. I have really taken an interest in this subject and have spent a fair amount of time trying to stay on top of it. I do believe that there COULD be wild cougars in Michigan, but so far there is no credible evidence to definitively say so. "My neighbor's cousin's sister-in-law had one run in front of her car last year" is hardly positive evidence, yet the majority of "positive proof" is statements such as this.


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## Guest

Trophy Specialist said:


> Here's an updated map of courgar sightings: LOL


Actually that map is over a year old now. ECN removed all of the Michigan confirmations when it learned that the MWC has used junk science to provide the confirmations that had been shown. For example, MWC reported results from DNA testing that were actually opposite of what the DNA lab found. If you do a google search you can find a press release from DNA lab announcing that they were distancing themselves from the MWC because they were falsifying the results. The lab's DNA results were "probable feline" and MWC reported the results as "positive cougar, north-american origin".

Here is a link to the page that maintains the above map:

http://www.easterncougarnet.org/bigpicture.html


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## Guest

Trophy Specialist said:


> When Dave Tomshend did his video analysis, he measured out the exact distance from where the video was taken to where the cougars were standing/walking. The cougars were on the edge of the woods, so their location is easily discernable. They were also standing right in front of trees, where the diameter was used to determine the size of the cats.


How can you know the exact distance from the trees when the video was taken from a 1/2 mile away? The difference of 10-15 feet can make a big difference when doing the size comparisons. Therefore they have added a bunch of guesswork and removed the science.


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## Linda G.

Is that, like the map that Ken posted, from the Eastern Cougar Network?? 

Or is it from the MWC?

Please give us some accreditation on this map and where it came from...

For a while there, for a year or so, particularly in June, July and August, I was getting cougar reports almost every day. Funny thing, tho, once the weather got cold, when a cougar would be really moving, the reports dropped off. When there's still a LOT of people in the woods, but they tend to be folks who know what they're doing out there...and what they're looking at...

I've heard of cougar sightings in just about every county in the state at one point or another, and of course, all over the internet with testimonials from folks like Wally. One guy said he'd even seen a dead cougar near Hale, another one said he had photos he'd post or send me, all very honest people. Never heard another thing about it from anyone...

So, who knows...you could spend all day arguing about things like this, but until we have proof, that's all we're doing.


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## Buddy Lee

BuckBass said:


> How can you know the exact distance from the trees when the video was taken from a 1/2 mile away? The difference of 10-15 feet can make a big difference when doing the size comparisons. Therefore they have added a bunch of guesswork and removed the science.


Actually, at that distance the difference of 10-15 feet would be negligible in doing the size comparisons...


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## Trophy Specialist

BuckBass said:


> For example, MWC reported results from DNA testing that were actually opposite of what the DNA lab found.... The lab's DNA results were "probable feline" and MWC reported the results as "positive cougar, north-american origin".


Its interesting that MWC bashers focus on that analysis to discredit MWC. As a response to criticism, MWC then went and had the scat analyzed at CMU using a much more advanced technique and guess what, the scientists at CMU concluded that the scat was in fact positively cougar. They tested scat from 11 different Michigan counties and all of them tested positive as cougars dumps at CMU. Funny how you won't find any references to the CMU studies on the Cougar Network's site. 

The same na-sayers tried to discredit the Monroe County video and they recommended that MWC get the video analyzed by an independent expert. MWC did just that and guess what, that expert vindicated MWC by concluding that Future Medias analysis was correct, that they were cougars. Funny how you won't find any references to the latest MWC release of the independent analysis of the tape on their site.

Its human nature to hate to admit when youre wrong. At least the DNR has changed their position on cougars in Michigan. That to me is a giant step in the right direction.


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## Trophy Specialist

BuckBass said:


> How can you know the exact distance from the trees when the video was taken from a 1/2 mile away? The difference of 10-15 feet can make a big difference when doing the size comparisons. Therefore they have added a bunch of guesswork and removed the science.


Dave Tomshend measured the distance from the camera location of the original video to where the cats were. He used a GPS and also a long tape measure to determine the distance. He had orange cones placed every 100 across the field to determine scale as well. Id bet that his distance measurements are very exact.


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## Linda G.

No one doubted the scat analysis done by Dr. Brad Swanson, a very reputable researcher from CMU-if he said it was cougar scat, it was. I believe it was discredited because it couldn't be proven, with witnesses outside of MWC, who provided all of the samples that proved to be cougar, WHERE they actually came from. The samples provided from outside sources, including the DNR, proved to be coyotes, dogs, cats, even a bobcat or two-but not cougar.

And I don't think the DNR has changed their position at all, Mike. It's all in who you're talking to and what they say at that particular moment.

And as writers every day are accused of, right, Mike, a lot of quotes are apparently taken out of context.


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## Guest

The simple fact is that the MWC has lost a lot of credibility that they haven't been able to run away from (even with a name change). And I seriously question their motives when they can't say the word cougar without saying "donation" in the same sentance. Had another organization been involved with this evidence I would be more inclined to believe it.


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## swampbuck

Awhile back I posted my expieriences on the michigan outdoors website only to have the credibility of everyone involved questioned by linda. it sounds like some of us have a more open mind.

if you would like to read it you can go to that sight and take a look.

I am including a link to an article in which a recently retired c.o. says they are around. she questioned his credibility because he no longer works for the dnr.as if that has anything to do with his credability

I came to the conclusion that the only person whose credibility i question is her.


http://www.houghtonlakeresorter.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11106151&BRD=2053&PAG=461&dept_id=382906&rfi=8


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## Linda G.

whether people think I'm creditable or not isn't the issue, and not of any real importance to anyone, Swamp, including me...the issue is whether there is a wild, breeding population of cougars out there. If so, prove it. No one's been able to do that, that's not a matter of anyone's credibility, that's a fact. So far, no one's even been able to come up with any proof of cougar at all that can be substantiated as having come from Michigan, much less come up with a cougar. And in a scientific world, that's how you do things.


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## Rudi's Dad

With all the ******** in the woods, by now (legal or not) someone would have a dead one they shot/trapped and show us if there were any.


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## Ferg

But I would ask that posters in this thread refrain from getting personal or attacking anyone personally - this is about the cougar and if they live and breed in Michgian - Not about members of this site.

Thanks

ferg....


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## NATTY BUMPO

Sleeping Bear Dunes NP near Empire has been a hotbed for cougar "sightings", warnings to visitors, articles in the local papers, etc. I posted on this last winter sometime but didnt want to wade thru 280+ posts again. :yikes: 

My wife and I went out for a snowshoe hike there today and stopped at the front desk at the Visitor Center to inquire if they had any hard evidence of cougars in the Park. A Ranger was there along with the desk clerk. Long story short- they got nothin, nada, zip, zero. In fact, they both seemed a little sheepish re the whole thing. But maybe that was just my take on the conversation.

They have five trail cams out over road killed deer- no pix of big cats as of yet. No confirmed tracks, no scat, no hard evidence of cougars out there at all. Seems to me that if you were going to see hard evidence of a big cat or cats in the Park, winter would be the ideal time to do it???


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## Bwana

I believe they found a Cougar in Iowa that had made its way from the West. if they have made it to Iowa, albeit on a rather limited basis, then they will eventually get here if not stopped. So even if there are not Cougars in this state yet, I honestly don't know either, they are probably on the way. A limited Cougar population in Michigan would be a good thing as I believe we are in its original range.


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## weedfields

Seen a Couger on North camp road on the way back from my buddys camp on the hoist basin. The cat was light brown, long tail, the cat was the length of one lane of the road including the tail. i have seen plenty of stuffed bobcats in my life and it was no bobcat. The cat stood in the road about 40 to 50 yards infront of the car for about 30 sec. then in one leap it leaped over the other lane and the clearing on the side of the road, about 15 to 20 foot jump.


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## xringer223

NO.... There are no wild cougars in Michigan. 
All have been turned loose by irresponsible individuals.


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## weedfields

been living here all my life i never seen anyone have a pet couger


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## Hamilton Reef

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, 03 FEB 05
Contact: Raymond Rustem, 517-373-1263

Cougar Hair Samples Verified

State wildlife officials today announced that results of DNA testing on hair samples submitted to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources last November came from a cougar.

A motorist reported hitting "a large cat" on November 2, 2004, and turned over hair samples collected from the bumper to biologists at the DNR Escanaba field office. The samples were forwarded to the Wildlife Division's pathology lab and then sent to Central Michigan University for analysis. The incident occurred in southern Menominee County.

"This is exactly the kind of information we are looking for to gain a better understanding of what animals are present in Michigan and identify potential areas for additional work," said DNR Natural Heritage Unit Supervisor Ray Rustem. "Though the information indicates the presence of a cougar it still does not confirm the presence of a breeding population in Michigan."

The DNR encourages hunters and outdoor recreationists to report any sightings of lynx, cougars, moose and wolves using the online wildlife observation report system on the DNR Web site at www.michigan.gov/dnr. Click on Wildlife and Habitat and select the Report Wildlife Observations link.


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## Adam Waszak

Does this have anything to do with you sign on name Weedfeilds? :lol:


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## Ferg

But if they are a breading wild kind is still unknown - 

This just in:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, 03 FEB 05
Contact: Raymond Rustem, 517-373-1263

Cougar Hair Samples Verified

State wildlife officials today announced that results of DNA testing on
hair samples submitted to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources
last November came from a cougar.

A motorist reported hitting "a large cat" on November 2, 2004, and
turned over hair samples collected from the bumper to biologists at the
DNR Escanaba field office. The samples were forwarded to the Wildlife
Division's pathology lab and then sent to Central Michigan University
for analysis. The incident occurred in southern Menominee County.

"This is exactly the kind of information we are looking for to gain a
better understanding of what animals are present in Michigan and
identify potential areas for additional work," said DNR Natural Heritage
Unit Supervisor Ray Rustem. "Though the information indicates the
presence of a cougar it still does not confirm the presence of a
breeding population in Michigan."

The DNR encourages hunters and outdoor recreationists to report any
sightings of lynx, cougars, moose and wolves using the online wildlife
observation report system on the DNR Web site at www.michigan.gov/dnr.
Click on Wildlife and Habitat and select the Report Wildlife
Observations link.


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## Linda G.

Weedfields-at one time in the mid-70's, according to a well-known Michigan veterinarian who specializes in big cats, there were as many as 65-70 pet cougars in Michigan, prior to regulation of the animals with the Big Cat Act in 1989.

Only four are known at this time-one of them is here in Antrim County, at the ripe old age of 15 Nina is living out her life peacefully. I've done a couple of stories on her, and have posted photos of her...

It seems there was a place located on US 2 near St. Ignace called "Cougar Acres" that bred and sold cougar kittens. Nina was born there. This is also where Sasha, whose cougar skull started much controversy a couple of years ago when it was "discovered" by the MWC in the forest not far from the taxidermy shop it was lost from, is believed to have come from. 

Sasha may have been a litter mate of Nina's, as they would be the same age. 

Several other cougars, included two confiscated last year by the MI DNR, have been discovered illegally in captivity over the years...

Hopefully, they can find the cougar that left the hair behind on the car in Escanaba...


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## Trophy Specialist

Confirmed cougar hair, just one more peice of evidence added to a long, long list. Pretty soon those that hold on to their believes that there are no big cats in MI will be small, lonely group.


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## swampbuck

wow the dnr and linda acknowledge that there is a couger running around in michigan.


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## weedfields

id like to see a breading place in the upper peninsula if you have any info about pet cougers up here i wana see one


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## Linda G.

It is no longer legal to breed cougars without a special zoo permit in the state of Michigan, and those permits are only issued by the feds. But prior to 1989, from what I can find out, there were very few, if any, laws at all about keeping any type of exotic animal, and that includes things like lions and tigers, in Michigan.

I've never said I didn't believe it was possible for there to be a wild cougar or two in Michigan. Based on information about cougars found in Minnesota in the last couple of years, I thought it was very possible, particularly in the western UP, if you read back through some of the many, many threads on this subject on this board.

I just believed, and still do, that it needed to be proven scientifically. And even this doesn't really prove anything, except that last November cougar hairs ended up on a car in Escanaba. A whole cougar, alive or dead, captured or collected with witnesses present, will further prove their existence in Michigan.


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## dogjaw

xringer223 said:


> NO.... There are no wild cougars in Michigan.
> All have been turned loose by irresponsible individuals.


 :idea: If they're loose and living off the land, they're wild NOW.


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## boehr

dogjaw said:


> :idea: If they're loose and living off the land, they're wild NOW.


There is the million dollar question, are they wild?  

The other side of the coin....let us just pretend for a second that the DNR came out with a statement that said, "Michigan has wild cougars". Then those that didn't believe said to the DNR prove to us that we have wild cougars. How could that be proven, that we do have wild cougars? What would happen then?


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## weedfields

how long does a couger live?


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## wyle_e_coyote

I have been a cougar douter all along, but I have said that Michigan does have habitat for "wild" cougars to survive. I just don't think they are here "yet". They will probably make it someday. Right now it is still just a "bigfoot" therory. 
I would like to see breeding wild cougars in Michigan. I have nothing against cougars. Just becasue I do not believe they are here now, does not mean I feel they will never be. This is what some people don't get about us "douters" . Believers just can't wait to tell us how wrong we are.. The day may come when cougars make it here. I just think right now there are allot of "ufo chasers" out there. Some that just want there picture and name in the paper, and some that just are not sure what they saw. 
This news from Menominee County, about the hair on the car is good. Where did the cat go, it must have major wounds. Some one should be looking for it. Got to be some Houndsman over there that would offer help.
That would be the first place I would think cougars would enter, from the north west states where they do live. Menominee County is still along ways from SB dunes though..?


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## Linda G.

how long do cougars live...well, Nina is 15, and she's still on her feet, but just barely. 

Sasha was 13, I know of another cougar in captivity that lived to be 14. But that's in captivity, it would normally be a lot less in the wild, I would think. A lot would depend on food availability, competition for food in the form of development, ranching, etc., disease (cougars can catch all the feline leukemias, distempers and things that any other cat can catch) and of course, predators in the form of people. I don't think cougars have any other natural predators, except as kittens.


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## Ferg

Linda G. said:


> I don't think cougars have any other natural predators, except as kittens.



LMAO - Did you see the picture of the Mule out west that killed a cougar while two dogs looked on? I'll try to dig it up and post it.


ferg.....


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## Trophy Specialist

Linda G. said:


> If you want to believe, believe. I'd like to, as well. But I prefer to wait until facts present themselves, as the wolverine did last spring. And that is my perogative, too.


I never heard of any DNA testing that was done on that wolverine that proved that it wasn't just an escaped pet, yet with just one incident, you accept that Michigan had a wild wolverine running around. However, even though there have been thousands of sightings along with photos, videos, tracks, kills along eith DNA tested hair and scat of cougars in the wilds of Michigan, you still poo-hoo them and maintain your stance that there are no wild cougars. It's also accepted now that there are wolves in the Northern Lower and Lynx in the U.P. all based on a couple of incidental trapping catches. Who's to say they were not released pets? I just don't understand your logic.


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## Hamilton Reef

Linda is correct about bobcat-car kills. A few years ago I personally had a bobcat killed by vehicle in front of me on way to work. This was on US-31 freeway at the Oceana-Mason County line. I stopped, picked up the bobcat, took it to work at my USFW office, called the local CO, and he took the cat in perfect condition to a taxidermist for educational display. I also have bobcats (female, kitten, male) on my property in northern Muskegon County seen several times over the years.

Woodsrat, The sheriff department and DNR has known about that wastewater cat for couple years or more. A member of the Muskegon Nature Club has also been monitoring the cat collecting evidence for last 2-3 years that I know of. If you should make our Feb M-S outing I will let you know of other incidents north of Muskegon. We are not allowed to comment on this site about those incidents (post deleated - no reason needed).


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## Trophy Specialist

Hamilton Reef said:


> If you should make our Feb M-S outing I will let you know of other incidents north of Muskegon. We are not allowed to comment on this site about those incidents (post deleated - no reason needed).


What is that all about? Don't tell me that there are powers out there deleting posts to try to cover up cougar evidence?


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## Linda G.

DNR wildlife biologist Arnie Karr, who saw that wolverine up close and personal, along with roughly 10 other people to witness the event at the same time, who also took videos and photos, and marked tracks and scat, which constitutes a reliable sighting, collected a few hairs that he believed came from the wolverine when it was treed. 

I believe their DNA tests confirmed that it was indeed dna from a wolverine similar to dna found in wolverines trapped in northwestern Ontario, ie., a wild wolverine. How it got here they still don't know. Wolverines traditionally don't do well in captivity-even trained zoologists aren't keen on keeping them. Only a few have ever been kept for any length of time in captivity. I can't imagine anyone trying to keep one in their home, as they can destroy just about anything, even steel fencing, I'm told, but I'm sure some people have. From all accounts, that wolverine in the Thumb acted like a purely wild animal, but it's very possible it was an escaped captive. 


And yes, you're right about the wolves in the Lower...they might well be released "pets"-they don't know...that's one of the reasons why they're doing more research on them, I'm sure. If they can, I'm not sure they'll be able to with very little snow on the ground. Why don't they do that with the reports of cougars? I can't say, but would guess that it's probably because they don't believe they've garnered enough reliable evidence to make a cougar tracking study worthwhile.


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## woodsrat

Linda G. said:


> That might have more to do with the fact that you live in southern MI, where there aren't a lot of bobcats, than the idea that bobcats don't get hit by cars.QUOTE]
> 
> I've seen lots of Bobcat around these parts. By the way, you are again assuming that this area is where I work and have always worked. For a journalist you seem to make alot of assumptions. My point on the car vs. Bobcat thing is merely that those animals are here and it is very, very rare that we see them dead on the highway or in the woods for that matter. Where is your objectivity on this issue Linda? I've read your posts on this topic. You are not being objective at all and your position is earily similar to the DNR's.
> 
> Let's call a truce and agree to disagree. I think you and I got off on the wrong foot. I have enjoyed reading some of your articles and will continue to do so. Thanks for the debate.
> 
> P.S.
> I realize my home is south of yours, but a whole lot of people around here don't really believe they live in "southern MI" and probably would be offended by that remark. Have a good day. I'm headin' to the woods.


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## n.pike

Linda G.
Why don't they do that with the reports of cougars? I can't say said:


> I was in the Hale barber shop last week. Two of the guys had personally seen a cat in Hale in December, they live a mile apart. The cat in Augres by the gypsum plant is seen regularly. I asked them to let a good hound loose on their property to find it and got the ok. The cats are out there, now we just need a volunteer to let his dogs loose where the cougar was seen. I personally dont want my dogs chewed up by a cat, but would be happy to put someone else on either spot, Hale or Augres, to run a cat.
> If you can put me in touch with an expert houndsmen, I'll get them access to the property where the cougar was seen.


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## Linda G.

I just assumed, with nothing more intended, that you lived in the Muskegon area, since you seem to be familiar with people in that area. No more than anyone else responding would do...it has nothing to do with my being a journalist, since I am not currently wearing my "journalist" hat-if I were, I wouldn't talk to you at all unless I knew your name and exact location. That's what you need to have for publication for a little thing called credibility. 

Since Muskegon is in Zone 3, I call it southern Michigan. I think you are being just a bit, er, picky, and a whole lot sensitive...people love to nit-pick in this thread, I've noticed, it's a distraction tactic for some, I think. 

What's wrong with southern Michigan?? That's you saying that, not me. 

No more comments about no bobcats because they don't get hit by cars??

Whatever...

I've been told that the bobcat population in, ah, the southern half of the Lower Peninsula, or whatever name for that part of the state that is politically correct in your eyes, is doing very well. I had the good luck of seeing one right outside of the Ludington city limits just a couple of years ago while rabbit hunting, and he was a beautiful example of a bobcat.

This thread has gotten real old...don't you think? No one is going to prove the existence of cougars in Michigan by arguing about it. That has to be done by someone other than us,we aren't going to prove anything on this board. 

There's quite a few houndsmen in the Hale area, n.pike, if you contact members of the Michigan Hunting Dog Federation, MBHA, or **** Dog Federation, I'm sure they'll be happy to point you to people that run hounds in that area on a frequent basis. I do know that someone here on this board, possibly even this thread (although I'm not about to dig back through 35 pages) reported he had seen, or talked to someone that had seen, I can't remember (only one of several dozen very similar reports I've had in the last 3-4 years), a dead cougar in Hale that someone had brought in...but I never heard anything more about it.


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## bioman

Trophy says cougars kills in Michigan. Where? When? Last I heard there has not been a cougar killed in this state for almost a hundred years.


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## Big50blaster

Linda G. said:


> This is the same National Park Service that has begun a "non-native" species removal from most of it's western properties, and if you read how some of that removal is taking place, and what species are being removed, it would raise the hair on the back of your neck...


Linda I is all against shuttin down places due to wackos preservin stuff. what in the world is they gittin rid of thats non native and why?

save stuff, git rid of stuff, these animal rites wackos cornfuse me


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## BarryPatch

Cougars do live in Michigan. There's one living in the UP.

http://www.garlynzoo.com/










His name is Zeke.


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