# Sweaty windows?



## averageguy (Jan 1, 2008)

Nearly all of the double pane wood frame Anderson windows sweat in my house. Anyone know why or how to stop this?


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

In between the panes usually indicates the argon gas has escaped from between the panes. The windows can be reseal and regassed.
If it is on the inside of the house, check to see if the humidity in the house isn't too high.


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

if you have a whole house humidifer on your furnance, turn the humidity control down alittle or if you have a stand alone humidifier turn it down too. 

If not make sure that you run your bathroom fan when you shower, make sure there is not a break in your dryer venting, check your furnace vent too. If you have a fan in the kitchen (that vents to the outside) run it while cooking. Also check your sump pump if you have one, make sure it is still working. If you have a Crawl space make sure that nothing breached the vapor barrier. 

If none of these apply start checking for a leaky pipe some where.

If all of this is fruitless check the windows themselves to see if they have lost their gas between the panes. usually when they do this you will get staining and condesation between the panes too, not just on the warm side. 

Lastly and not very likely would be to make sure that your attic/roof is vented and sealed between the living area and attic well. If warm air is making it into the attic and condesing in the attic it could conceivable cause condesation and humidity problems in the living area when it hits high enough. But this would be pretty unlikley and there would likley be other problems that you would have noticed prior to this.

I find in my house ( I have a whole wall that is floor to ceiling double pane) that I need to keep my humidity at about 48% (when it is very cold like the past copy of weeks) or lower to keep from having alot of condesation. The colder it gets the more condensation you will get at lower outside temps. 

I also find that in the winter that it helps to leave about a 1 inch gap at the bottom of the blinds/shade and sill to allow some air movement. 

Go to radio shack, etc and get a small digital temp/humidity read out and set it some where out of the way so you know what the actual humidity is. As Outside temp goes down, relative humidity of the warm inside air needs to go down too or condesation will increase.

When you get this all squared away get some Tilex mildew root killer and clean your windows, sills and weep holes/channels well or you will end up with mildew and mold.

Hope this helps,
J-


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## averageguy (Jan 1, 2008)

I have an outdoor weather station that tells the indoor humidity. It says the humidity is 56%. I don't have a humidifier and my crawl space is dry. The condensation is not between the panes it's on the inside of the house. I don't have storm windows only screens,would that help by keeping the windows warmer? We use the exhaust fan when showering and the stove vent when cooking. Maybe I need a dehumidifier? I don't want to dry the house out to the point of having bad static electricity. Thanks for the replies.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

56 is way to high and hence your problem. Humidity in the house is relative to the temperature outside. Here is a guideline:

*Recommended relative humidity* +20° and above 35% to 40%, +10° 30%, 0° 25%, -10° 20%, -20° 15%


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

How many roof vents on your roof ? It was a long time ago, but putting in roof vents solved the sweaty window problem in a house that I owned. Like you, our crawl space was bone dry and we tried everything else......roof vents were the answer.

L & O


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

Ranger Ray said:


> 56 is way to high and hence your problem. Humidity in the house is relative to the temperature outside. Here is a guideline:
> 
> *Recommended relative humidity* +20° and above 35% to 40%, +10° 30%, 0° 25%, -10° 20%, -20° 15%


Yep 56% is too high. get below 50% and you will see a difference. 

Is this a new problem or has it gone on every winter?

J-


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

When we had our family Christmas party I noticed some of my windows had sweat. All last year we had none. It was all due to the cooking and guests hot humid air for the day. The next day all back to normal. 

Humidity is too high like the others said..


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

You didn't say if this was on all the windows or in just some rooms.
You didn't say how old the house is or when it was built.
Pick the rooms with the most windows, if you have cieling fans run those & see if that helps clear it up. If not get a fan and support it facing up & run it in that room to see if that helps.
If its a newer house with the humidity as high as it is, house may be to tight.
Could be air exchange problem.
Here's a link for you, from america's handyman of course.
http://www.masterhandyman.com/columndetails.cfm?pubdate=20081206

Wally


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## averageguy (Jan 1, 2008)

The house is 16 years old. All the rooms have this problem,if it happened in years past it wasn't as bad or I didn't notice. There are vents in the over hang of the roof and ridge vents. I turned on 2 ceiling fans one in each end of the house,and raised the blinds on all the windows.


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

How old and tight is the house?


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

How's the humidity in the summer with the A/C?


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## averageguy (Jan 1, 2008)

The house is 16 years old, I don't know how "tight" it is but it is by no drafty. I never paid attention to the humidity in the summer.


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## Barothy (Jan 17, 2007)

If you are heating with natural gas check to make sure your furnace and water heater are venting properly. One of the byproducts is water vapor. Sometimes squirrels or other critters like chimney's.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Barothy said:


> If you are heating with natural gas check to make sure your furnace and water heater are venting properly. One of the byproducts is water vapor. Sometimes squirrels or other critters like chimney's.


Good points. Also check dryer vent to make sure it has not come apart and is venting to the outside. You would be surprised how little water it takes from being OK in humidity to having a problem.


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

I've seen it brought up but haven't seen an answer yet. What type of heating system do you have? I'm assuming gas/forced air. If so, it surprises me that your humidity reading is so high. Normally running a furnace in the winter really dries out the air and you need a humidifier to keep the humidity comfortable. If you do have gas/force air and the humidity is still that high, I'd say try a dehumidifier for a while and see what happens.

John


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

jpollman said:


> I've seen it brought up but haven't seen an answer yet. What type of heating system do you have? I'm assuming gas/forced air. If so, it surprises me that your humidity reading is so high. Normally running a furnace in the winter really dries out the air and you need a humidifier to keep the humidity comfortable. If you do have gas/force air and the humidity is still that high, I'd say try a dehumidifier for a while and see what happens.
> 
> John


 
Just a shot in the dark, but with that humidity level and no humidifier, I'm guessing hot water heat. 56% in this climate, no hum?? Usually, the gas will burn up the humidity.
If it is forced air, one option would be an ERV/HRV. It's a bit pricey, but a very good option for any newer house.
ERV= energy recovery ventilator
HRV= heat recovery ventilator


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

That's kind of what I was thinking Jim. I'm shocked to hear 56% humidity in this climate at this time of year. I used to have a whole house humidifier on my last furnace. But I put a new gas/forced air HVAC system in about two years ago and I've got a 93% furnace now which uses outside air for combustion so it shouldn't dry the air as much so I didn't reinstall the humidifier when I finished the installation of the furnace. Right now my temp in the house is 67 degrees and I'm currently at 12% humidity. Maybe I shouldn't have gotten rid of that humidifier! 

John


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## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

Storm windows would do a world of good. for those that say "it is double pained glass" I say 'try em-you will like em'.

True good humidity is condensing on COLD glass windows and sooner or later making a puddle on the sill.


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## averageguy (Jan 1, 2008)

It is natural gas forced air heat. We just got a new one installed in the fall. It is the old kind not the super efficent type.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

ESOX said:


> In between the panes usually indicates the argon gas has escaped from between the panes. The windows can be reseal and regassed.
> If it is on the inside of the house, check to see if the humidity in the house isn't too high.


I think I have this problem? How do you fix it and is it expensive?


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

Splitshot made some great points in his post but there's one thing I'd disagree with when it comes to what is recommended for winter humidity levels. 50% or higher is not good in my opinion. Moisture leads to mold growth EVEN during winter. If you have good windows and you are experiencing a large buildup of moisture on them, chances are you also have moisture buildup in other areas unseen that can't be easily wiped up or dried. Most HVAC experts recommend a rH of 30-40% during winter months. 

As for why moisture builds up in winter? Very easy answer- Moisture condenses on windows because the window surface temperature is below the dew point of the air in the house. Nothing more and nothing less. It MAY be an indication of high humidity but not necessarily. It could just mean a large delta in temperature.


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## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

"As for why moisture builds up in winter? Very easy answer- Moisture condenses on windows because the window surface temperature is below the dew point of the air in the house. Nothing more and nothing less. It MAY be an indication of high humidity but not necessarily. It could just mean a large delta in temperature."

Kinda what I said 2 pages ago. Get a couple storm/screen combo for the worst couple windows and you will be amazed.

I know you have 2 layers of glass now but a 3rd and 3" of air space will give several more Rs on the windows. Will also save heating/cooling costs. As my heating man said 35 yrs ago-"insulation dont cost-it pays" and gas was MUCH cheaper then than now.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Michihunter said:


> Splitshot made some great points in his post but there's one thing I'd disagree with when it comes to what is recommended for winter humidity levels. 50% or higher is not good in my opinion. Moisture leads to mold growth EVEN during winter. If you have good windows and you are experiencing a large buildup of moisture on them, chances are you also have moisture buildup in other areas unseen that can't be easily wiped up or dried. Most HVAC experts recommend a rH of 30-40% during winter months.
> 
> As for why moisture builds up in winter? Very easy answer- Moisture condenses on windows because the window surface temperature is below the dew point of the air in the house. Nothing more and nothing less. It MAY be an indication of high humidity but not necessarily. It could just mean a large delta in temperature.


Mich,

My opinion is based on science and not opinion. If mold and mildew cannot survive when humidity levels are below 60% according to the American Lung Association and the higher the relative humidity is the more energy you save then it makes sense to maintain them as high as you can.

I understand why most HVAC experts recommended levels between 30 and 40 percent. It is because they want to be conservative in their estimates and because most HVAC experts dont fully understand the consequences of excessive moisture.

Most HVAC experts still install furnaces based on the square footage of your home instead of calculating the size you need based on how your house is constructed. That is why most newly built homes have oversized furnaces and air conditioners.

You are correct that moisture on the windows increases as the inside surface of the window gets colder because of the decrease in the outside temperature. (Delta T) Moisture on the windows as I stated earlier gives you a clue to humidity levels, but to be sure use a humidistat.

As Mr. Lewiston stated an extra storm will help reduce moisture on your windows because the inside most window doesnt get as cold so there will be less condensation. A storm window will increase the R-Value by about 1. If you use plastic windows on the inside the ambient air will keep it warmer than a glass window because it is so thin and has less mass. It too only ads an R-value of 1, but because of what I just stated it almost eliminated moisture buildup.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

Once again Splitshot, I agree with you- when it comes to RH % of air. But a puddle of water is 100% humidity and the rH of air has a direct effect on whether or not there is a puddling effect in areas of concern. That is the basis for most HVAC experts contention.


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

I'm not looking to start an arguement (or jump into an ongoing one, LOL) but on days like we have had recently (lows into the negative numbers) I have to lower my whole house humidifer to about 30%RH to keep from getting a water fall off of my windows and icing. When the weather is "normal" winter temps I am good with 40-45%RH in the house before I really start to have moisture problems. 

The higher the RH the warmer it feels for a given temp, just like in the summer. 80deg and 80% feels alot hotter than 80deg and 20% but there is going to be a point of diminishing returns when it comes to interior RH. 

Each spring however I do have to clean mildew out of the tracks and weep channels of my windows, even with the very low amount of condesation that I get in my house. This is because the little condensation that I do get, runs into the weep channels and tracks and goes from 30-40%RH to 100% humidity (standing water), which will support mold/mildew growth. 

My current RH in my house is 36% and I have a track that I did not get around to cleaning this year and it would make Louise Pasture get a chubby there is so much mildew in it, LOL. Checking my highest RH for the year on my gauage and it is 50% (likely in the summer before I fired up the AC). 

My opinion remains that you need to control the moisture in your house for the weather, interior temps, moisture loads, etc vs using a set number and just letting the windows sweat. 

J-


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

I understand what you are saying. Standing water does meet the mold test for sure. The solution is to insulate your windows enough to reduce the condensation.

The shrink wrap on the inside of your windows really works well solving this problem. I'm guessing you have a tight house as well because if you had a leaky house like I just moved into, where the moisture leaks out throught the cracks faster than my humidifier can keep up with it, even on my single paned window in the bathroom has no condensation on it, except for the five minutes just after I get out of the shower your problem wouldn't be so severe. 

If your interested, I will do a little research and find a source for plastic windows that can be reused from year to year. Another solution would be to replace your windows with more energy efficient ones and I think I read about some a couple of months ago that are reaching R-8. Pretty expensive though.

Thanks for pointing out that there are many different situation out there that can't be solved with just one answer.


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

Here's a couple good reads. I personally don't like to see condensation on windows. To each his own. There are ways to control the levels and keep the home comfortable. It's code in Canada that every new house being constructed be equipt with an HRV because of the temps and how tight houses are. They can control the humidity levels and give the proper amount of air exchanges that is required for a healthy home. Drawback is of course the price. I like to see the levels between 30 and 40%. Not because I don't understand proper humidty, but because I understand that mold can grow wherever the water condenses. It can grow in a house that has 45% humidity overall. The problem isn't the middle of a room. It's the walls, windows and surrounding areas that have the condensation on them (which is higher the the overall RH%).
But, if that's what everyone wants, great. Just know I can install UV and particulate filters that will will kill the air bourne mold, bacteria, and virus' that are in the air system. For a nominal fee of course. People with allergies swear by them.



http://alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/faq12.html

http://www.epa.gov/mold/moldresources.html


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Canada has always been out in front as far as codes go and even 25 years ago they led the way in air sealing. The HRVs recover heat but a better choice is the ERV which recovers enthalpy or moisture as well as heat. The ERV gives you much more control over indoor environment.

I understand why you don't like moisture on your windows, but if you keep humidity levels that low in a standard home you will pay more for heating your home especially in Miichigan and more so in Northern Michigan.

The first article is pretty good, but author doesn't explain why they only recommend humidity levels between 30 to 40% and they contradict themselves in a couple of places. This is common. All I can say is If I designed your house, you would not have any moisture problems, your heating system would be designed to maintain comfort levels for the least amount of money for that design.

I am trying to give general information and one answer cannot be applied to every house and every situation. It is the main reason I try to avoid these types of discussions. 

Solving energy problems can sometimes be pretty straight forward and sometimes extremely complex. It becomes more than just understanding one principle, but sometimes how several principles applied together complicate the situation.

I basically come here to talk about hunting and fishing and occassionaly help someone solve a particular problem like the thread starter spelled out. Now I'm dealing with HVAC experts, people with opinions, unusual situations and even articles I know have mistakes, but don't have the inclination to disprove them because someone believes what they read.

It's a trap I will try to avoid in the future even though I have said that before.


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

Splitshot said:


> Canada has always been out in front as far as codes go and even 25 years ago they led the way in air sealing. The HRVs recover heat but a better choice is the ERV which recovers enthalpy or moisture as well as heat. The ERV gives you much more control over indoor environment.
> 
> I understand why you don't like moisture on your windows, but if you keep humidity levels that low in a standard home you will pay more for heating your home especially in Miichigan and more so in Northern Michigan.
> 
> ...


ERV's are better choices for warmer climates and A/C loads and the humidity in the southern states. The HRV's are a better solution for our climates because it does capture the heat that is needed for winter. However, in our climate and humidity levels in winter it will provide the moisture control due to the air exchanges. You can eliminate the moisture by opening a winter correct? Well, this will bring the outdoor air while tempering it at the same time. The ERV will not reclaim the heat that the HRV does. 



> All I can say is If I designed your house, you would not have any moisture problems, your heating system would be designed to maintain comfort levels for the least amount of money for that design.


Comfort levels for the least amount of money for that design. There are many different options and many different operating costs and more importantly installation cost. You have to define what type of system your talking about. Most people would not want to pay over 20 grand for a low operating cost geo thermal system. I think we can both agree, that will be the cheapest as far as monthly operating costs. What most people don't understand, is that there are more factors than a furnace that come into play when heating or cooling a house. The ductwork is just as important as a properly sized unit. Most people don't want to pay high dollars for a super efficient 98% modulating furnace and a rework on their existing ductwork. So, where's the rub? I can design a low operating cost system as well. That's not the topic on hand.

When it comes to anything to do with construction, there are no simple answers. One thing feeds off another and every situation is different. I come up with my views from situations I see at work. Whether is be a house with static cling, or an auto paint plant that NEEDS insane levels of humidity for their paint process'. I also comes from other experts from across the country. I don't come up with it from a few internet articles. I like my profession and am very involved with it as I'm sure you are splitshot with yours. Not really looking to get into a pissing match by no means.


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

http://healthandenergy.com/heat_recovery_ventilators.htm


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

And your point is?


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

Splitshot said:


> And your point is?


Well, my point is, even though the house is less than 60% there are certain areas in that house that are higher than 60%. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be condensation. You claim to be able to design a system to run efficiently. So can alot of people. Now, there are also ways to fix the OP problem (you claim there isn't one). Just because he has condensation doesn't mean he isn't running peak efficiency with his equipment, it just means he needs to add a componant to deal with the moisture. 

This will describe what I was talking about.
Scroll down to about halfway and it has a cute little picture.

http://healthandenergy.com/mold_prevention.htm


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## codybear (Jun 27, 2002)

All the windows in my house have moisture on the inside and some are wood and some are vinyl casings.. I checked the humidity in each room and it only varies from 35-38%.. I wiped the moisture off of some windows this morning and with-in 2 hours it was already puddled up in the corners again. Last summer we tried sealing all the wood cased windows to prevent mildew from soaking in but it didnt work.

CB


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Tinmarine,

I read most of what was in your link, and it supports just what I have been saying. I think it is rude to keep posting links to make a point. I wouldn't mind it if you made a point and then use a link to support your position, but to expect someone to just read some cut and paste as their discussion point isn't cool. By the way, an ERV does the same thing as a HRV only the ERV controls moisture as well. They are both air to air heat exchangers.

Seeing you are an expert please explain how different areas in your house have different humidity levels and please use your own words.

Codybear,

You can have condensation on your windows even if the humidity levels are low. If you keep lowering your humidity levels to eliminate this condensation it will substantially cost you more money to heat your home, could affect your health and cause damage to some of your belongings.

It is not uncommon for people to use a de-humidifier because of condensation, but that just makes the other problems worse and costs more money. The colder it gets, the more condensation you will have on cold surfaces like your windows.

The solution is not to reduce humidity levels, but to insulate the windows better so condensation is reduced to a tolerable level. I gave a couple of solutions earlier but there are more I didnt mention.


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

Splitshot said:


> Tinmarine,
> 
> I read most of what was in your link, and it supports just what I have been saying. I think it is rude to keep posting links to make a point. I wouldn't mind it if you made a point and then use a link to support your position, but to expect someone to just read some cut and paste as their discussion point isn't cool. By the way, an ERV does the same thing as a HRV only the ERV controls moisture as well. They are both air to air heat exchangers.
> 
> Seeing you are an expert please explain how different areas in your house have different humidity levels and please use your own words.


Well, then we're at a stalemate split, because I feel it's rude to sit back and tell people that do this for a living and say everything they post is wrong without putting anything on the table except "I said so". List something for a reference, anything to hold up your claims. I understand full well the difference between HRV's and ERV's and I've talked to people specifically about them in detail and what is best for our climate. It's my opinion the the HRV is a better fit because it reclaims more heat than the ERV and will eliminate the condensation from the fresh air being brought in. An ERV is a waste, IMO, due to the fact it doesn't reclaim as much heat. yet gives the air exchanges that is required. Thus, you use MORE energy because of the lack of heat recovery.
Humidity levels vary just like air temps will be different from one point of a structure to another. The air stratifies if there isn't enough air circulation. Different temps, different humidity levels. Just because there is 50% RH in one part of a room, doesn't mean that level is a constant throughout the home. If there is a part that the humidity levels are above a safe level then it can breed mold and send it into the air stream and grow anywhere it can survive. If you read the all of the links, you will see this. Instead, you focus one one point and say it proves your right. Not so. All house have infiltration and exfiltration. These are the areas that need to be focused on. These are the areas that will have the fluctuating humidity levels. Personally, the first thing I would look at if I were the OP is if the house has a positive pressure or a negative pressure. One cheap fix could possibly put and air intake at the end of the return duct to draw in fresh air. I'm not really a big fan of bringing in sub zero air into a house, but it is an option and a better one than opening a window.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know more than the average bear on this topic. If I stepped on your toes, quite honestly, I don't care. You've said you don't like to get into arguements but always seem to concerning certain topics. There's only one common factor in there and that's you. If you find yourself being attacked on issues, just maybe it isn't the rest of the world. Maybe if you hop off that soapbox and provide something more than, 'because I said so", people wouldn't argue with you.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

tinmarine said:


> Well, then we're at a stalemate split, because I feel it's rude to sit back and tell people that do this for a living and say without putting anything on the table except "I said so". List something for a reference, anything to hold up your claims. I understand full well the difference between HRV's and ERV's and I've talked to people specifically about them in detail and what is best for our climate. It's my opinion the the HRV is a better fit because it reclaims more heat than the ERV and will eliminate the condensation from the fresh air being brought in. An ERV is a waste, IMO, due to the fact it doesn't reclaim as much heat. yet gives the air exchanges that is required. Thus, you use MORE energy because of the lack of heat recovery.
> Humidity levels vary just like air temps will be different from one point of a structure to another. The air stratifies if there isn't enough air circulation. Different temps, different humidity levels. Just because there is 50% RH in one part of a room, doesn't mean that level is a constant throughout the home. If there is a part that the humidity levels are above a safe level then it can breed mold and send it into the air stream and grow anywhere it can survive. If you read the all of the links, you will see this. Instead, you focus one one point and say it proves your right. Not so. All house have infiltration and exfiltration. These are the areas that need to be focused on. These are the areas that will have the fluctuating humidity levels. Personally, the first thing I would look at if I were the OP is if the house has a positive pressure or a negative pressure. One cheap fix could possibly put and air intake at the end of the return duct to draw in fresh air. I'm not really a big fan of bringing in sub zero air into a house, but it is an option and a better one than opening a window.
> I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know more than the average bear on this topic. If I stepped on your toes, quite honestly, I don't care. You've said you don't like to get into arguements but always seem to concerning certain topics. There's only one common factor in there and that's you. If you find yourself being attacked on issues, just maybe it isn't the rest of the world. Maybe if you hop off that soapbox and provide something more than, 'because I said so", people wouldn't argue with you.


I know your not an expert Jim and I have no interest in slamming you. Remember you came in this thread late and gave an opinion that was based on a cut and paste that did not support your opinion. It is clear that you know more than the average guy, but your wrong about having a higher moisture pressure in one room to another unless that room is sealed and then it is just a matter of time before the moisture pressure will equalize.

Example, when you get out of the shower and the windows and mirros will be fogged and then you open the door, it only takes a couple of minutes before the steam dissipates. It is because moisture is a gas and it will always equalize. My only reason for trying to set you straigh is because if people take your advice they will spend more in energy and for no reason except your opinion.

The fact that you accused me of being on a soapbox tells me that your only reason for posting is to try to sharp shoot me. You can argue with me all you want as long as you use facts and not opinion. By the way you also misrepresent me when you said I tell people everything they post is wrong. That is clearly an exaggeration and not what I do.

I try very hard not to express my opinions unless I am pretty sure I know what Im talking about, advice you should consider.


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

Splitshot said:


> I know your not an expert Jim and I have no interest in slamming you. Remember you came in this thread late and gave an opinion that was based on a cut and paste that did not support your opinion. It is clear that you know more than the average guy, but your wrong about having a higher moisture pressure in one room to another unless that room is sealed and then it is just a matter of time before the moisture pressure will equalize.
> 
> Example, when you get out of the shower and the windows and mirros will be fogged and then you open the door, it only takes a couple of minutes before the steam dissipates. It is because moisture is a gas and it will always equalize. My only reason for trying to set you straigh is because if people take your advice they will spend more in energy and for no reason except your opinion.
> 
> ...


Oh please, where are your facts split? Have you produced ONE? No, you haven't nor have you produced any references, nothing, so don't be hypocritical. I'm not trying to sharp shoot you as you call it. I do take it personal when I'm being talked down to, that, you are guilty of. 
The fact that you fail to accept, is that the vapor will condense on a surface if there isn't proper air movement. If you don't believe me try a little experiment. Stick a bed within an 1" of a cold wall and turn up the humidifier to 50% and see how fast you get mold where the air can't pass. Your bathroom example lacks for the plain fact that once you open that door, you'll move that air throughout the house. It's not the areas you see that creates the mold problems, it's the ones you can't. I know when I walk into a house that has a mold problem. You can smell it. BUT, you can't see it. Why don't you acknowledge this? I will say this one more time. You must have air movement. Proper supply, proper return, proper system as a whole. If he brings in more fresh air by mechanical means and creates a positive pressure in that house, I'm willing to put money on the fact that the condensation will diminish and/or disappear.
Something you should consider is that you aren't the only one with knowledge and if you weren't so short sighted you might realize this. By telling me I cost people money is laughable. I'd say insulting, but I consider the source of which it comes. Water is a tricky element. It will appear in the strangest places. It can condense on either side of a wall, window, whatever. You add too much, your just asking for trouble.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Jim,

Someone was concerned about the condensation on their windows and asked for some advice. I noticed he was getting some advice that was not germane to his problem so I gave him helped him out. He didnt question my advice and ask for facts or links to back up what I said. It was his choice to either accept it or not.

Almost 3 weeks later you come in and give your opinion stating that even if the relative humidity in the house 45% you can have mold problems especially if there is a cold surface. No **** Sherlock! If you would have read all the information I provided you would have seen that I explained that too.

Now your calling me a hypocrite and that I wont admit that vapor will condense if there is not proper air movement when that was never an issue raised. The problem is you consider yourself an expert, and you clearly are not. All your doing is trying to save face by attacking me and grasping for straws.

I havent worked with any builders in a few years, but when I did, I always knew that when they gave my recommendations to the heating contractor we would end up having a meeting. There were the usual problems of installing a heating plant twice the size needed, improper balance of the system, didnt want to seal all the ducts, always wanted to install the supply ducts on the outside walls, installed ducts that met code, but were to small so the home owner could always tell the furnace was on because he could hear it running. Most dont think the added cost of a two stage fan is worth the money, let alone a two stage burner and I never met one that would install supply ducts on the floor for winter heating and a supply on the ceiling for summer air conditioning.

Lots of little things that they didnt understand just like you, but they always started off as experts. I do not mean to indite all heating contractors because I know some excellent ones who have taken the time to understand what it takes to install a system that is very efficient and at the same time practical.

I have no obligation to defend any advice I gave in this thread, but if you can point out one thing that I wrote you know is wrong and can prove it, I will take the time to provide references and data to back up my assertions. Of course if I am right you will have to agree to pay for my time.

In the meantime, how about explaining the plain fact (your words) that in my example that once you open that bathroom door, you'll move that air throughout the house. Maybe this will be a good time to explain about that negative pressure theory of yours as well and explain how the air moves if the fan isnt on.

Shortsighted


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Splitshot said:


> It's a trap I will try to avoid in the future even though I have said that before.


Woops - :lol::lol:

Good info Split - 

ferg....


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