# Beware of this outfitter at Outdoorama



## feed jake (Apr 8, 2002)

Just thought I would give the heads up to anyone going to Outdoorama looking for a bear outfitter. 

Don't go with an outfitter called Fleming's Black Bear Camp in Jellicoe, Ontario. We went bear hunting at this camp in 2001 and the place is a scam. The guy promises the world and delivers nothing and treats everyone like crap once you are at his camp and forked over the money. We booked with this guy after talking to him at Outdoorama.

There were 20 hunters in camp, he said there would be about 10. He' claimed 75-80% success rate. Out of 20 hunters hunting 5 days about 6 hours per day, three bear were seen and two harvested for a success rate of 10%. He claimed a good shot at a wolf, once you were up there he said you were wasting your time if you hunted wolf. He said the fishing was excellent, and it wasn't even good. If you want more info on this outfitter, check out the huntinfo.com (outfitterreview section), bowsite.com bear hunting forum, and huntingclub.com websites for more lengthy, lively and detailed discussion about this Camp and other outfitters you may be looking into.


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## Banditto (Jun 9, 2000)

Sorry to hear you had bad luck. I believe that may have been one of the ones I talked to last year, and he called me over and over again. I put him off but finally got it thru his head that there was no way we could make it out there. I think I still get the occasional call on my caller-id.

Anybody else have trouble we should make a list up. My buddies are planning a Caribou hunt in early Dec. and I don't want them to get burned.


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## feed jake (Apr 8, 2002)

Bandito, we learned our lesson. We called a bunch of the references and they checked out, so I don't put a whole lot on references any more unless I know the person. We didn't know about the handful of sites on the internet that you can get info on. They really help. 

If it was Walter Fleming or Mary Lou Fleming calling you it was the same outfitter.

Tell your buddies to check out huntinfo.com, huntingclub.com and bowsite.com and search that outfitter. It really helps. One thing about carribou, it is a huge plus if the outfitter they are going thru has their own plane. If the herd isn't going thru your camp area the week you booked the hunt, you can be screwed unless they use a plane to move you to the herd. Not sure if this is an issue when and where your buddies are hunting, but it is something they should and probablly have already considered.

The ones that don't have there own plane but hire pilots as needed run the risk of having pilots not available when they are needed as these bush pilots get busy moving hunters around from a bunch of different camps that don't have there own planes.
What's the name of the place your buddies are going to.


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

The Ontario Provincial Police and the MDNR are of no assistance. You basically have to sue in Small Claims court for a Breach of Contract. When the contract is entered into in Michigan the Venue for a suit is here. It isn't easy to do, most outfitters that are Canadian Citizens blow you off, they don't care what the US Courts say. If you do get a Judgement collecting can be another issue. Unfortunately I gained all this worthless knowledge through a bad experience myself.


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## feed jake (Apr 8, 2002)

Of the one person that I am aware of that contacted Ontario authorities about him, he was basically brushed off as some hunter who did't get a bear and was disgruntled. 

A couple guys emailed Outdoorama without much of a response. Flemings Black Bear Camp also advertises in Woods-n-water for bear hunts, fishing (under the name Sturgeon River Outfitters), and grouse hunting. I would like to email them about this place but chances are nothing would be done about it.

There is one outfitter, Ron Robson, in Ontario who is getting investigated by the local authorities, but he was flat out taking money for hunts that flat out never took place. His was outright fraud, compared to the type of scam they pull at Fleming's black bear camp. As far as I am concerned what they do at Flemings is outright fraud, but in the eyes of the law it is different.


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## feed jake (Apr 8, 2002)

Correction, huntingclub.com not nahc.com.


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

Be very careful with huntinfo.com. I have posted on there before. The moderator would then try to contact the outfitter trying to solicit business. If the outfitter did not want to play ball suddenly no more posts were allowed for that outfitter. The exception was when a bad review was posted. I do check it myself, but consider the source.

Best thing to do is find someone you know who has hunted with a paticular outfitter. 

I have even heard some real bad things about Northway outfitters that cabelas advertises for. This was directly from the hunters at the airport in Saskatchewan. Hopefully they gave a full refund. That is the true test of whether a service is good or not.


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## feed jake (Apr 8, 2002)

Kingfisher, so I understand it, if someone posts something positive about an outfitter there, then they call the outfitter to pay for some advertising and if they don't, they don't allow any more positive post. So if you post something negative and it is not a paying advertiser than they allow it, if it is a paying advertiser then they probably don't allow it. 

So, under that system, the negative posts are under counted if it is a paying advertiser and the positive posts are undercounted if it is a non-paying outfitter. I will obviously keep that in mind next time I check out the sight since it is clearly flawed. Now I know why it takes 2 weeks+ from the time you post a review on huntinfo to the time they actually put the review up on there website. 

Trout, sounds like an interesting idea. I would be curious what they would have to say. Thing is, when we were at Flemings in 2001, of the 20 guys at the camp, at least 10 booked by going to the Novi show. The scam a bunch of hunters at the Novi show.


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

Jake, I am not sure if all reviews are that way. I know from personal experience it was done.
I have posted several reviews there. On every outfitter I was contacted by a certain booking agency that must have been affiliated with Josh. The questions they asked me were not about the hunt.
I finally refused to reply to some of the questions. I even asked who he was and what he wanted. He would not reply back. After this I found out that others from around the country who tried to post a review. The review forum would not post them

A party hunted with one of the outfitters and one guy was a total jerk. Even though 2 out of three of them took the biggest deer of the year. The one who did not get a deer went all over the web bad mouthing the outfitter. If you know the whole story you would have seen this guy was no pleasing period. This guys bad review showed up on the forum. Seemed kind of funny that 4 others from around the country could not post and yet this guy was able to. You figure out what is going on.

I think being an outfitter can be real tough sometimes when you have to put up with rich arrogant snobs.


There is always two sides to every story. I think in some cases an outfitter should get a chance for a rebuttal. I have heard that some review forums will try to contact the outfitter and allow him to reply in response. In this case the outfitter tried to contact the forum about the situation. They would not respond back after the initial refusual of sponsoring. I think this could open someone up for a lawsuit.

One of the hunters who was refused to post a review got a reply back stating he must be a friend of the guide becuase his post was to nice.


I really like the idea of outfitter reviews. It is tough enough not to get ripped off as it is. Now I find out that those reviews maybe bias.

I wish we could do one here to protect the potential guided hunters.


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## stevebrandle (Jan 23, 2000)

I wouldn't expect Outdoorarama or the MUCC to do much. They provide booth space to the outfitters and couldn't possibly check them all out for dependability.

It's "let the buyer beware"

Hiring a good outfitter is kind of like hiring a good Proctologist. It's tough checking them all out , but if you hire a bad one it's a real pain in the butt.


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## Ramhunter (Jan 22, 2003)

Guys, There are several good ways to check out outfitters and get the real skinny on them. But like all things in life, they don't come free. Safari Club International maintains files of member hunt reports and makes the entire file available to members who enquire. This includes favorable and unfavorable reports. Currently, national membership fees runs $55/yr. I think the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep has a similar setup (they carry reports on all sorts of hunts, not just sheep). They likewise require membership, but I don't know the cost offhand.

Still another option is The Hunting Report. This is a monthly news letter for $60/yr which maintains unbiased hunt reports (and outfitter rebuttals). Check out their web site at www.HuntingReport.com. 

Still another option is the Outfitter Guide published by the North American Hunting Club. To get into the guide, an outfitter must have a 75% favorable rating from past clients. 
(Unfortunately this system still allows outfitters with 25% poor recommendations to be listed)

I know all these sources cost $$, but when you consider the costs, time, effort, and dreams you put into a guided hunt, $50-$75/yr to get the low down on an outfitter is pretty reasonable.

The best source still remains a postitve recommendation from a buddy you trust.


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## Beave (Aug 26, 2002)

Number of people in camp is a huge issue that many people don't ask about, or worse, the guides lie about. Especially when you're talking about limited hunting seasons, the guides need to make their money in a short time. Many of them will overbook figuring that even after giving a deposit it's common for someone to back out or cancel.

When that doesn't happen you'll run into a situation like Feed Jake describes of 20 people in a camp built for 10. If that's been going on all season not only is the local animal population going to be much more heavily hunted, the quality animals will quickly be gone. 

My best advice is to get statements that're easily documented in writing. Obviously you're never going to win a court case based on "The guide said there was a good chance I'd get a bear." You can win, however, if you've got him nailed down that there will only be 10 hunters maximum in camp.

I'd also make it clear up front what kind of guided hunt you expect. Many "guides" do nothing more than dump you off at a blind along a deer trail and come back to see how you're doing in 4 hours. If you're expecting the treatment you see on the outdoor shows where the guide brings the hunter into the mountains, locates game for him with the spotting scope, and brings him to the game, make that clear. I've know some people who've gone on an elk and mule deer hunt who were expecting that level of service and were instead pointed to a blind looking down into a valley and told the guide would be by in 4 hours to pick them up for lunch. Had they not gotten large elk on the first morning they probably would have been mighty pissed off because their expectations were different than the guide's. What they weren't aware of until their 2nd hunt with that guide was that he'd scouted the area the night before and knew the elk had bedded down in that particular valley for the night. He had hunting spots in ten different valleys in the area and put them in the one valley where there were elk. 

Get the hard details in writing. Time of hunt, people in camp, what's included, will they fly you around to find the animals, etc. If the guide is honest he'll have no problem putting that stuff down on paper for you. Obviously no guide outside of a deer ranch is going to guarantee you a successful hunt, but the really good ones will usually give you a break on a return trip if your party doesn't have much luck.


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)

funny that you say that because we went on a fishing trip with him(walter the drunk) and it was a joke...While we were there we did see a few bear but this guy just has one hell of a crummy additude!! We were promised boats and trailer for different lakes to fish but when we got there it was only if he got up to go which was tuff because his fammilly was at camp getting bombed every night so we only got to go for 1/2 day...That was the second time we got the shaft from canadian out fitters... :


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Is this outfitter a member of SCI?? If so you can contact SCI and they will investigate this and as a result may suspend his membership, ban him from SCI events and whatever else they can do.

A good way to avoid hoax's like this is to solicite a reputable booking agent. By the way staty clear of United States Outfitters since they are in big trouble right now so by no means would I suggest using them. I have also heard pretty bad things about Cabelas, or at least Cabelas African hunts.

Join SCI so you can get their publications. This is where I would look for a good booking agent since SCI really keeps an eye on this stuff.


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## Tony H. (Feb 6, 2003)

Any time you book with a guide of outfitter you've never been with before you're basically trusting him. Too bad we can't just trust people anymore.

But I have had some good experiences with outfitters in the past. I generally don't like a guide. I just want a place to hunt and a place to stay with a little background on the area. It's cheaper and makes me feel like I did the actual hunting.

But here's what works for me. Not saying it's fail-safe but . . .

Ask for references. But tell them you want three guys who did well and three who did not fill a tag, catch fish, etc. That will give you a better indication of what's going on. If they can't provide unsuccessful references then, in my opinion, they're probably not a legit outfit. Also, if at all possible, go somewhere that someone you know and trust has went. Sometimes it's not possible but it's worth checking out. And, hey, thousands of people visit this site. It never hurts to ask here . . .


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## skyblaster (Oct 26, 2001)

flemings sounds like a carbon copy of roger's bear den out of cartier ontario. no bears, no fish, too many hunters and drunk guides. i'm gonna camp out at their booth this year and try to save some people their time and money. they said we could connect on a wolf though......at about two oclock in the morning!


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## Mark Harmes (Oct 10, 2002)

I was checking out the bear hunting forum on www. stickbow.com and there was a ton of pissed off people who had hunted with Flemmings bear camp. Like originally stated, double the hunters they were told about, Walter trashing everyone verbaly, drunk off his ass, no bears and then Walter would leave camp the last few days til hunters were gone. He is a crook. There were like 400 and some replies to this thread, so many and so much bashing they pulled it. But I checked the other day and they started another about him. 

All I know is that dude better watch it or some day he'll piss off the wrong dude.


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)

we were fishing there last spring and the drunk told us he had someone who was going to buy his camp , which I hope is true because it does look like nice bear country but this old drunk does not have a clue...My buddies went the last 2 years in saskatuan and both years 5 guys filled there tags.they booked thru safari club like they do all there hunts and never been let down yet!!!


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## feed jake (Apr 8, 2002)

bounty hunter, probably a stupid question, but how was the fishing when you were there. We were there in August of 2001 and it wasn't good for anyone in camp. I figured the lakes were as overfished as the woods were overhunted for bear. He was asking guys in our camp if they knew anyone who might want to buy his camp. Walter was such a rotten drunken sob that it was almost funny at times. I am also surprised that he hasn't gotten his just due by pissin off the wrong guy.


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## bounty hunter (Aug 7, 2002)

the fishing at the lake where camp was ,was not good except little walleye and not a lot of them..he had one of his helpers take us down to some culverts in the evening for walleye which was not great either fishing from shore..on the second evening a couple locals came by with 2 coolers full of pike and we asked for directions and these two guys actually drove back 15 miles down that road to where they got them and were more help then walter..when we fished there (from shore) between 2 lakes divided by 2 big culverts we were amazed because we would get a fish on almost every cast!! the pike were up to 18 pounds and we lost almost all our spoons the first evening so we went to dead smelt which was good too.one guy in camp actually did not have water or a stove and heat and was ticked until we showed him where we got those fish..when we left walter and his helper kept asking us for directions to where we caught all those pike at which we told him 180 degrees in the opposite direction of where we actually were..lol..If you think walter was a joke you should have seen his kids which were in there late 20's..They held no punches when it came time to tell there daddy what they actullay thought of him which was worse then how you feel..And these kids only see him one time a year if that..so all in all it was a crummy trip but the 2 locals saved the trip from becoming a total flop..


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## feed jake (Apr 8, 2002)

Little walleyes and not a lot of them was exactly the story when we were there. Thats cool you caught a break with a couple locals. That was the kind of pike fishing we were hoping to do when we were up there. Walt asking where you caught em is too funny. That rocks that you sent him on a wild goose chase.


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## Rico (Mar 15, 2001)

Another to avoid is Screaming Eagle Outfitters out of Buffalo Narrows Sask. No clue on Whitetails and if you want a big bear you can hunt the local dump. I was up for deer.


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## Banditto (Jun 9, 2000)

You guys are scaring me with all these stories. My hunting buddies are almost ready to commit to a Caribou hunt in Quebec.

Only thing is, the hunt the outfitter says is the best one is early Dec.

Now I am thinking, Quebec 300 miles north of where the fire roads start and 30 miles east of Hudson Bay in early Dec. must be a ton of snow. That doesn't sound like a good time to hunt, but I don't know a thing about caribou hunting either...


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

I'd highly recommend joining SCI and going through one of their advertisers or go to your local SCI banquet and see what outfitters are there. SCI is great to get involved with since where else will you have a bunch of people in one room that have traveled the world and can tell you from their own experience who to go with.

Like I posted earlier, I'd stay away from Cabelas and USO for any hunts. Shoshone is pretty good.


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## MrBass (Feb 18, 2003)

Hey Banditto look into this outfitter. My brother inlaw said his boss hunted with them last fall and rebooked for 2004. WWW.clubchambeaux.com check it out.


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## marco (Sep 25, 2002)

Hey Ban, I did a caribou hunt 4 years ago. First week of Oct. up in Quebec. We got snowed in. In Dec. there will be LOTS of snow.


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## MrBass (Feb 18, 2003)

My dad and I booked with Flemmings Black Bear Camp a couple of years ago. They will promise you the world. They promised us a motor to use so I didn't bring one to fish. We ended up fishing from shore. They promise 100% active baits. (FACT) 20-22 hunters only 3 bear seen. If you want to sit in a tree for a week, pay $1200.00 +, get treated like trash and see birds fly around and occasionally a squirrel will run by, this place is for you. I checked, they will be at the Novi Expo. DON'T BE FOOLED, DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!!!!!!!!!


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## TQO (Oct 28, 2000)

As a booking agent partnered with Bass Pro Shops, it is very difficult to match specific people with the right outfitters. Here are some great stories including some of my own with at Tahquamenon Outfitters.

No outfitter is perfect, including us. An outfitter should be judged on how knowledgeable, hard working and honest he is. I had a genlteman last year book a 4 day whitetail bowhunt in the UP with us. I actually never talked to this person, but I talked several times to his partner. They were the only 2 people in camp. His partner stuck a doe, but we could not find it. It rained 3 inches in 3 days. When the group got back, the hunter I never talked to writes a letter to the GM at Bass Pro and asks how he could be parntered with a used car salesman like me. I call my guides and they said the 2 guys were talking about rebooking for next year when they left. Different stories obviously. Come to find out, because it was raining, the hunter that did not get an opportunity only hunted 1 1/2 days because he wanted to watch football on Sunday and it was raining too hard on Saturday afternoon. And they decided to leave early on Monday. This is not the kind of guy I would want for a reference. 

I had 2 outfitters dump on us this year. I will mention them both. One is James Bay Adventures in Quebec. Most people that hunt caribou know of Arthur Taillon's problems by now, but I will reiterate them. 

James Bay Adventures was one of the premier outfitters in Quebec. I had a hunt with 12 people scheduled for September of 2001. With the tragedy in NY on 911, we were cancelled and with good reason. Planes were grounded and things got backed up. We rescheduled our trip for Sept of 2002. 3 weeks before the hunt, the outfitter calls and asks if I had the rest of the final payments ($1042). I said I will just bring it with me not thinking an operation that does over $1 million a year would need a grand. About 2 weeks prior to the hunt, Arthur startes talking about the lack of caribou in his camps. He said his first group came out empty and the caribou aren't moving. Hoping they would start, we hang on. To make a very very long story short, Arthur never opened a camp in 2002 and will never operate one again from what it looks like. We booked with another one of our outfitters and had a great time.

A WARNING. IF ANYBODY HAS BOOKED WITH JAMES BAY ADVENTURES AND HE IS HOLDING ANY OF YOUR MONEY, PLEASE CALL ME AT 734-847-4388 AND JOIN OUR GROUP OF OVER 100 HUNTERS TRYING TO COLLECT MONEY. YOU WILL NOT BE GOING HUNTING IF ARTHUR HAS TOLD YOU THIS. ANYBODY ALREADY WHO HAS HAD CONTACT WITH ALLEN PREVATT NEED NOT REPLY.

Another Outfitter in BC, Northern Woodsman, has not performed to anybodies expectations. Our company inspected this outfitter and checked many references. I sent 2 hunters on a $9000 5 animal hunt with moose and goats being the main species. I will make this very short also. The most expensive camping trip in the world. If one of my clients didn't shoot a moose from the ****house on the third morning, they would have starved. I even talked to Larry Weishun (sp?), a Bass Pro Pro staffer and he said how great of an outfitter Northern Woodsman was. This outfitter has gone down hill in a hurry. It was not only my 2 customers, but our company send about 15 hunters there with the same feedback. STAY AWAY FROM NORTHERN WOODSMAN IN NORTHERN BRITISH COLUMBIA. THE OWNER IS LES ALLEN. My 2 hunters that spent the $9000 each sat with Les at Bass Pro for hours 1 day and planned everything they were going to do. None of it happened.

Booking for 165 outfitters, 2 bad ones is a pretty good rate people would think, but it is not acceptable. Our booking agency is working very hard on recovering money from the outfitters to return to clients. The problem is, money is the root of the problems. Neither of these outfitters have any money left to recover because it was spent on hot dogging and travelling around the country selling their hunts.


As for the gentlemen talking about joing SCI, James Bay was one of the largest supporters of SCI that I know of. He donated over 15 trips a year to SCI for their auctions per year. He is now on immediate suspension from SCI, but that doesn't help the 30 or so auction buyers that forked over money in the last couple years.

Our booking agency inspects every outfitter that we represent. This should be a pretty good tool and usually is. Unfortunately, outfitters change. And what one customer may like for a camp, others will think is a dump.

I tell my clients to ask outfitters how many hunters hunted with them last year. Then ask for every name and phone number. That lets you pick the references instead of the outfitters. If they have a small list, something is wrong. If they won't give you the complete list. Stay away.

If anybody has any questions on booking hunts, I would be happy to answere them to answer them. The same goes for fishing.

Have a great day.

TQO
www.huntfishtrip.com


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## MrBass (Feb 18, 2003)

DID ANYONE GO TO THE NOVI EXPO AND TALK TO FLEMMINGS BEAR CAMP. WHAT KIND OF PROMISES DID THEY MAKE TO YOU.


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## Trushot_Archer (Dec 2, 2002)

They looked pretty lonely. I flicked a booger at them and ran away.


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## MrBass (Feb 18, 2003)

THANK YOU. HOPEFULLY IT STUCK TO THEM.


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## MrBass (Feb 18, 2003)

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF MINNESOTA HAS A GREAT SITE LIKE THIS ONE.


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## Beave (Aug 26, 2002)

Mr. Bass...

Not that I'm aware of. Email Steve, the owner of the site. He already has an Ohio site up and running. I'm sure he'd gladly expand to a Minnesota site as well if there's a receptive audience.


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