# I think I choose the english pointers



## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

my first priority would be the dogs being bred. if you want to make something good, you start with good matierials. it's not a sure thing, but it puts the odds in your favor.

i'm not a trialer, but i've owned and bred a fair number of dogs over the years. i've bred and bought better dogs and although some of the colder bred dogs were good hunters i've been happier with the dogs with many champions in the pedigree.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

crosswind said:


> Again not everybody looking for an english pointer is willing or wanting to go to a rescue program where thier options are in the range of ,well lets see, it looks like an english pointer, so we are sure you will like it.
> Not much of a choice, not much to build a bird dog from.In reality what you are more likely to get is the results of someones backyard breeding( that they couldn't get rid of) from a couple of nobodys or worse yet you are getting someone else's reject that has been washed out and not even worthy of selling or it has some issue that they can't deal with.(For instance a pump handle tail)
> If you are willing to risk those issues, then by all means rescue is the way to go. But don't kid yourself or us about how great your odds of getting an exceptional dog from there are.


Greenhorn, your ignorance of the rescue world is as bad or worse than what you accuse WCH of with regard to trialing. Of course you'll belittle it as it affects your bottom line, but if you can humble yourself to broaden your mind, check out this site, and look at their success stories: www.illinoisbirddogrescue.com. Then climb down off that high-horse before you fall and hurt yourself.

KW


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> Greenhorn, your ignorance of the rescue world is as bad or worse than what you accuse WCH of with regard to trialing. Of course you'll belittle it as it affects your bottom line, but if you can humble yourself to broaden your mind, check out this site, and look at their success stories: www.illinoisbirddogrescue.com. Then climb down off that high-horse before you fall and hurt yourself.
> 
> KW


 My comment was not ment to belittle any rescue org..They are what they are. They are great at doing what they do. I am not implying that it is impossible to get a dog out of there that can hunt.What I was pointing out is your odds will be ten fold better by going to a reputable breeder that has spent the time and efforts with a program that has past and current proven results of what they are producing.
But if you are not interested in those odds or you finances don't allow you that, or perhaps you are just wanting a pet, then by all means get one from the rescue, you may get lucky.
Trust me slick if I was worried about my bottom line, I would not be selling bird dogs. For the time invested it does not pay well. It has never been about the money it has always been about producing great birddogs.


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

crosswind said:


> Trust me slick if I was worried about my bottom line, I would not be selling bird dogs. For the time invested it does not pay well. It has never been about the money it has always been about producing great birddogs.


Bingo! Everybody has (hopefully) a passion for something. Some people enjoy golf, some people like cars and Tiger Woods likes golf, cars and women. Passion is what drives us to excellence in what we do. The passion of dog people is what drives traditionally better dogs and desire for better dogs. Most breeders line breed in an attempt to promote or keep a certain lineage and combination of traits. However, most will outcross as well to introduce something. There are exceptions to every rule,but you generally have to breed extreme to get moderation. In doing all of this, a lot of money is spent by people with passion (no matter what breed or venue they participate in). That money isn't just in kennels, trailers, boxes, travel, vet bills, entry fees, misc. equipment, training and training time..it is also spent in hunting liscenses and hunting. Dedication from dog people with passion is what allows the vast majority of us to enjoy what we have what we do.

I had a German Shepherd as a kid that was a good bird hunting dog, but I don't have German Shepards anymore. My passion for bird dogs and bird hunting has steered me in a direction to try to accomplish what almost every bird dog person wants...the best bird dog we will ever own.

I don't think that members strive to attack people on this forum, but when people on this forum who have PASSION for what they do know that BS is being spilled, I am glad that they speak up. As I have said before, there are many people who look to this site for information, help and facts. Many times they don't get that from misinformed, uneducated or unqualified individuals.

This thread is getting way off track.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

I expressed an opinion/concern, I got asked why I have it, and I gave an answer. Somehow that led to personal attacks and inferences about how I see the trial world, inferences that are nothing more than sweeping assumptions and flat out dead wrong. Anyone with a good grasp of English would be able to see that based on what I wrote.

Good day.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Drifter Saver said:


> Bingo! Everybody has (hopefully) a passion for something. Some people enjoy golf, some people like cars and Tiger Woods likes golf, cars and women. Passion is what drives us to excellence in what we do. The passion of dog people is what drives traditionally better dogs and desire for better dogs. Most breeders line breed in an attempt to promote or keep a certain lineage and combination of traits. However, most will outcross as well to introduce something. There are exceptions to every rule,but you generally have to breed extreme to get moderation. In doing all of this, a lot of money is spent by people with passion (no matter what breed or venue they participate in). That money isn't just in kennels, trailers, boxes, travel, vet bills, entry fees, misc. equipment, training and training time..it is also spent in hunting liscenses and hunting. Dedication from dog people with passion is what allows the vast majority of us to enjoy what we have what we do.
> 
> I had a German Shepherd as a kid that was a good bird hunting dog, but I don't have German Shepards anymore. My passion for bird dogs and bird hunting has steered me in a direction to try to accomplish what almost every bird dog person wants...the best bird dog we will ever own.
> 
> ...


What do you know? You run shorthairs and pointers, right? With that combo it's amazing you ever find birds. 

In all seriousness though. Great post. I know a bunch of people who breed dogs and rarely do they make money at that part of it. If you want to make money on dogs you'd better have a whole bunch of them and win and be willing to work for 7/11 type wages. I'll wager most guys with big kennels dream of 12 hour days and most likely are doing their trade 18 hours a day along with scooping poop and keeping pain the rear customers happy.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I expressed an opinion/concern, I got asked why I have it, and I gave an answer. Somehow that led to personal attacks and inferences about how I see the trial world, inferences that are nothing more than sweeping assumptions and flat out dead wrong. Anyone with a good grasp of English would be able to see that based on what I wrote.
> 
> Good day.


 A person would think that in order to form an opinion/concern it would be based on some kind of experience or knowledge of the subject. You have neither, yet you get on here and suggest that the trial world is at fault for AI ing dogs. 
If you are willing to write that nonsence then you should be prepared to back up your opinions/concerns with some facts. I have no personal attack to take up with you.But I do have enough experience and facts and a good enough "grasp of English" to know that you are way off base in your concern.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

crosswind said:


> A person would think that in order to form an opinion/concern it would be based on some kind of experience or knowledge of the subject. You have neither, yet you get on here and suggest that the trial world is at fault for AI ing dogs.
> If you are willing to write that nonsence then you should be prepared to back up your opinions/concerns with some facts. I have no personal attack to take up with you.But I do have enough experience and facts and a good enough "grasp of English" to know that you are way off base in your concern.


Nowhere in my posting did I say the trial world was 'at fault' for anything. That's where I think you're reading something into what I wrote. 

If you want to pump semen into dogs to make better ones, that's your choice and done wisely, I have no doubt it works (and does). I just fear that there are a number of breeders out there that will throw in a little of 'ol Snakefoot' for the next thirty years and wash out good genes from other lines over time. Rescued or not, I like Pointers because they are rather genetically sound and don't take much to turn into adequate gun dogs. I don't want to see that change.

Greed and the drive to win can lead people to do stupid things. Banning the practice in the trial world would seem to be a good way to preempt such a problem.

If there is anything breeders like you can learn from the show dog world, and likely have, it's that there are a lot of morons out there in the breeding world. Those same morons use AI too. That's a fact. I know you know this.

Is my concern unfounded? I hope so. But I don't have a lot of faith in people being able to control themselves. That's probably pretty cynical, but there's lots of examples to back that cynicism.

And yes, I acknowledge that banning the practice doesn't prevent other forms of bad breeding. That's as good an argument against my idea as any.


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## merwin (Nov 27, 2005)

Well I see I caused a big shiz storm! All I want is the name of a couple trusted breeders so I can buy a pup this spring for those of you that sugested some older dogs thanks but I want to start with a pup becouse I enjoy training my own dogs. I will ask again in a week or so after you all get over the artifical insimination isues


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

k9wernet said:


> I may be ignorant about many things, but you* folks who make a living out of something that was meant to be recreation*, elevate it to a level of seriousness and importance that I simply can't get on board with.


It sounds like your ignorance starts with capitalism. To say you are not interested in breeding is fine (to each their own), but the rest of the arguement is just plain silly. You ever hear of a little company called Nike? They make recreational products. You might have heard of them. They are mighty serious about it too.



*** On a serious note, any of you that have never checked out a "field trial" should take the time to go to a NSTRA event. You can see what is going on (cheap binoculars improve the view) and the outcome is very objective. You see some pretty impressive dogs and some folks who are really into their dogs. You dont have to be a trainer or a dog fanatic to get involved either, they have amateur trials as well. I bring this up because I repeatedly hear negative posts about "field trialers" and "trial dogs". Anyone that is into their hunting dog would love NSTRA as it gives you more weekends a year to have fun with your dog(s). You might also find out that some of the most passionate guys are some of the most generous with their advice and time. Thats what I found anyway.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Nowhere in my posting did I say the trial world was 'at fault' for anything. That's where I think you're reading something into what I wrote.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you want to pump semen into dogs to make better ones, that's your choice and done wisely, I have no doubt it works (and does). I just fear that there are a number of breeders out there that will throw in a little of 'ol Snakefoot' for the next thirty years and wash out good genes from other lines over time. Rescued or not, I like Pointers because they are rather genetically sound and don't take much to turn into adequate gun dogs. I don't want to see that change. [/quote]

You will not convince me that you are all that concerned about a genetically sound dog while you get your dogs from the rescue programs. Weigh the odds of good genetics from thirty years ago from "ol Snakefoot" versus the genetics coming out of the rescue programs today. I will take ol Snakefoot any day. At least I would know what his genetics are.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

merwin said:


> Well I see I caused a big shiz storm! All I want is the name of a couple trusted breeders so I can buy a pup this spring for those of you that sugested some older dogs thanks but I want to start with a pup becouse I enjoy training my own dogs. I will ask again in a week or so after you all get over the artifical insimination isues


 
This was just up a few days ago:
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321490


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Greed and the drive to win can lead people to do stupid things. Banning the practice in the trial world would seem to be a good way to preempt such a problem.
> 
> If there is anything breeders like you can learn from the show dog world, and likely have, it's that there are a lot of morons out there in the breeding world. Those same morons use AI too. That's a fact. I know you know this.
> .


 You see you have not learned a thing.:lol: I have told you that AI is simple a method to implant. You keep referring to AI and yet you discuss/condemn frozen semen. Again you do not know enough about it to even understand it.Do some research about the stuff and then come back when you know more.
Also those so called 'morons' that are turning out all those junk english pointers, where do you suppose allot of them end up.The same place you are shopping for your genetically sound english pointers, the rescue.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

merwin said:


> Well I see I caused a big shiz storm! All I want is the name of a couple trusted breeders so I can buy a pup this spring for those of you that sugested some older dogs thanks but I want to start with a pup becouse I enjoy training my own dogs. I will ask again in a week or so after you all get over the artifical insimination isues


 Merwin there was several posts and recommendations of pointer poeple on here, all are good advice. If you can't find a well bred pointer right here in this state you aren't looking very hard.
Or you could get you a genetically sound one from the rescue programs, just ask WCH.:lol:


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

k9wernet said:


> Greenhorn, your ignorance of the rescue world is as bad or worse than what you accuse WCH of with regard to trialing. Of course you'll belittle it as it affects your bottom line
> 
> KW


Yep



crosswind said:


> You see you have not learned a thing.:lol: I have told you that AI is simple a method to implant. You keep referring to AI and yet you discuss/condemn frozen semen. Again you do not know enough about it to even understand it.Do some research about the stuff and then come back when you know more.


I'm sorry, would you like to try and argue that frozen semen doesn't go in artificially? I also don't see anywhere that I condemned it, though I think I did try to impress upon you some of the problems your fellow man can cause you in your trade with it and why it might be wise to ban AI generally in an effort to prevent those problems. I even gave you a reasonable counter argument.



crosswind said:


> Also those so called 'morons' that are turning out all those junk english pointers, where do you suppose allot of them end up.The same place you are shopping for your genetically sound english pointers, the rescue.


I claimed that rescue Pointers are genetically sound? Find that and repost it for me, I really want to see where I wrote that. Oh wait, I know, let me help you out there, I think I said I like Pointers, whether they are rescues or not, because they are generally genetically sound. Hmmm, even though I was speaking broadly about the breed in general, I'm sure you can twist that just enough to advance your agenda. :lol:

Either way, I'll let you flail here and allow you to exude your hubris for all the world to see.

I think you're trying to get even for past arguments bub and I think it's downright hysterical that you chose this topic to argue with me over. :lol:

Anyhow, you can reply, but we're done with this discussion, or at least I am. Thanks for the laugh as usual. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Yep
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a PRIME example of why NO* pro* trainer/handler/breeder likes to post here. That's why you hardly ever see posts from Bruce, Scott, or Jonesy here, for this exact reason, new people asking questions have to weed through all the ******** you post. Your ignorance of the dog world has really come through on your posts in this thread. 

Guys who have trained countless championship dogs try to help people out, and you, with your lack of any dog training knowledge, steer people in the total opposite direction. It would be nice to have an "Ask the Pros" forum, but I am sure you'd weasel your way into there too and taint that with the nonsense that comes from your fingertips.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

WCH, I'd just like to add one more thing to counterpoint your concerns.
Of all the sporting breeds out there the Pointer world is by far the most outcrossed breed there is. Lines from all venues get crossed by breeders, hunters, trialers trying to get that magic nick.
It's probably one of the main faults of the Setter world, Setter owners simply do not cross those lines very often from what I can tell but look at Pointers and you can find horseback dogs bred to coverdogs bred to shooting dogs bred to hunting dogs.
I don't see any of the current lines dieing due to a strict allegiance to an old deceased line bred Champion. Variety is the spice of life and Pointers are very spicey.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> _Variety is the spice of life and Pointers are very spicey._


We have a winner in the quote of the month contest!:lol: (I agree by the way) 

I'm all for a little spirited banter, but this thread has become a bit "spicey" for my laid-back taste--how 'bout you guys all meet me at my place for a beer, all weapons will be checked at the door!.


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## Llewellin (Aug 19, 2004)

All I know is Scott has some great dogs and has more experience in the trial world than most of us here. He has invited me to his house and some trials and every time I have ever talked to him he gave great advice, showed me his dogs run, training techniques, and even offered to let me train on his grounds and use birds. He has always been a straight up and honest guy from what I can tell. And that I am sure some of us here appreciate what he has done for the dog world and line of dogs he breeds. I know as soon as my two are gone into the doggy sky he will be getting a phone call from me so I can get one of those great GSP's he is breeding.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

WCW let me give you an example and tell me if this is wrong or right... 

Say i had a femal i really wanted to breed to a dog in california.. I dont want to ship my femal all the way to california so the guy sends me frozen semen of his live dog. I have it AI in my bitch.. 

Are you saying this is wrong and should be outlawed? 
Or are specfically referring to deceased dogs?


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

I for one apologize if I spoke too strongly. I see the need for dedicated individuals like Crosswind, but simply don't share in that level of enthusiasm/obsession at this point in my life. I don't share WCH concerns regarding AI, but also don't see why he needs to be torn a new one for stating an opinion. He WASN'T giving training advice -- he was making a philosophical statement.

That said, I strongly resent the comments that were made about rescue pups. As a "weekend warrior" who hunts to relax, doesn't plan to breed, and doesn't plan to trial, a rescue is the perfect dog for me. I picked up a 6 month old EP from IBR that already had basic obedience, some field experience, some bird exposure, and showed a lot promise as a hunting buddy. You simply don't get that same level of confidence in a 6 week old pup regardless of the lineage. She was somebody's leftovers for some reason, but I had a "started" pup with results I could see. "Rescue" doesn't mean picked at random from a cage at the pound. Many of these services are run for hunters by hunters.

Now, I've said my peace and I'm cool with all y'all. But if Mike's offering up the brew, I say we work this thing into more of a pissing match and meet up at his place Saturday night just for the hell of it. 

KW


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I don't know what the rules are for the varying field trial clubs, but personnally I wouldn't mind seeing them ban dogs born as a result of AI or for that matter any dog with the process in their lineage.


WCH your above comment is the only reason I bothered to continue posting on this thread.If that is not condemning AI/frozen semen , what is????????
Having debated some of your other left field ideas I have learned that you can have the facts presented to you point blank and you just don't get it.
You say that you like pointers because they genetically sound. Yet you get yours from a rescue where you have zero control of the genetics that produced the dog that you took home. I don't get your reasoning???????? It make no sense, like many of your other ideas.
I will agree with you on one thing, there are plenty of irresponsible breeders out there. 
Those are the guys that are filling up your rescue programs.Those are also the same guys your getting your pointers from.. 
.


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## Grouseman2 (Dec 28, 2001)

BIGSP said:


> Buying a pointer is like buying a Lexus or Chevy.


What a statement... not sure what the intended interpetation was but this is mine! :yikes:

a) lexus: sudden accelaration/out of control.... :lol: (FWIW no pointer should be compared to foreign crap, not even a non-DNA'd, frozen semen, IA'd rescued pointer)

b) lexus "supperior" to chevy. NOT!SO MUCH!!!

Just sayin.........:lol:

Mike


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

Texas_Longhorn said:


> Here is a Snakefoot son
> 
> http://www.gundogcentral.com/gundog.php?dogID=6057


No comment!


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

k9wernet said:


> I for one apologize if I spoke too strongly. I see the need for dedicated individuals like Crosswind, but simply don't share in that level of enthusiasm/obsession at this point in my life. I don't share WCH concerns regarding AI, but also don't see why he needs to be torn a new one for stating an opinion. He WASN'T giving training advice -- he was making a philosophical statement.
> 
> That said, I strongly resent the comments that were made about rescue pups. As a "weekend warrior" who hunts to relax, doesn't plan to breed, and doesn't plan to trial, a rescue is the perfect dog for me. I picked up a 6 month old EP from IBR that already had basic obedience, some field experience, some bird exposure, and showed a lot promise as a hunting buddy. You simply don't get that same level of confidence in a 6 week old pup regardless of the lineage. She was somebody's leftovers for some reason, but I had a "started" pup with results I could see. "Rescue" doesn't mean picked at random from a cage at the pound. Many of these services are run for hunters by hunters.
> 
> ...


He was torn a new one because his "opinion" makes absolutely no sense and is based in zero facts! and we all know what they say about opinions....


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Grouseman2 said:


> What a statement... not sure what the intended interpetation was but this is mine! :yikes:
> 
> a) lexus: sudden accelaration/out of control.... :lol: (FWIW no pointer should be compared to foreign crap, not even a non-DNA'd, frozen semen, IA'd rescued pointer)
> 
> ...


Chevy, Ford, whatever just sayin different strokes for different folks.


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## dallasdog (Nov 17, 2009)

Merwin, 
I have owned only two bird dogs and trained them both myself, i do not trial and probably never will i just grouse hunt, the answer is simple... they can have the best lines in the world but if you dont train it, none of that matters. with a grouse all you need is enough contacts for the dog to learn how to outwit them, that takes a life time for a dog its a never ending learning curve, as every bird acts different. as for the rest of this post i have to stay out of i dont agree with any of it lol (other than its is good entertainment). my advise is do a little research get a decent price and spend a lot of time with the dog and you will be happy. i got a pup from a guy and every one that i know toldme it was a bad mistake but everyone likes to follow that dog in the woods hes a bird finding machine. but i gave him and still do give him as much time as i can. he would probably fail miserably in a trial but he will keep up with any dog in the grouse woods.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

midwestfisherman said:


> and we all know what they say about opinions....


That in a free society, everyone is entitled to one?

That I may not agree with yours, but I'd fight for your right to express it?

That a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth or falsehood of an idea in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people? (JFK)

I never submitted my opinions to the creed of any party of men where I was capable of thinking for myself. If I could not go to Heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all. (Thomas Jefferson).

... Just some thoughts on opinions. Were you going somewhere else with that?

KW


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i've always owned setters, but have seen a few pointers. enough to appreciate their good qualities but not enough at this point to start changing breeds.

i dont see AI as a problem, i dont think it's used extensively. but it does give the owner of a female more options to breed to an outstanding sire. in dairy cattle it's used a lot, almost exclusively but semen and insemination in cheap and the bulls are rated for a number of charecteristics.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

I have no problem with someone making a post, be it an opinion or whatever, even one as ridiculous as the one that was made.
But don't get upset because someone calls BS.
Anyone that has any experience with frozen semen breedings(which he was continually calling AI) knows that that statement about banning it because of it tainting the breed, is an utterly ridiculous comment.
I would think that if a person was going to post something like that, you should be prepared to support it(even if it is an OPINION) with some experience, facts or data. That did not happen.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

crosswind said:


> I have no problem with someone making a post, be it an opinion or whatever, even one as ridiculous as the one that was made.
> But don't get upset because someone calls BS.
> Anyone that has any experience with frozen semen breedings(which he was continually calling AI) knows that that statement about banning it because of it tainting the breed, is an utterly ridiculous comment.
> I would think that if a person was going to post something like that, you should be prepared to support it(even if it is an OPINION) with some experience, facts or data. That did not happen.


Well I'm certainly calling BS on this statement.

All you've done here is resort to personal attacks on me and my dogs and tell me I'm not entitled to my opinion because I don't breed or trial dogs and haven't yet bought one from a breeder. 

My facts are what other people have done to any number of other dog breeds with or without AI. I don't think we need to stroll down breed lane to know what I'm referring to.

You haven't laid out any facts of your own as to why I should trust that AI can't be misused by dog breeders or why banning it from the trial world wouldn't mitigate any potential problems or why it's an unnecessary step. 

Some others here have, you have not. 

****, that's right, I wasn't going to reply anymore. Sorry.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

never mind...


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> My facts are what other people have done to any number of other dog breeds with or without AI. I don't think we need to stroll down breed lane to know what I'm referring to.


 
I think you made Scott's point for him. 

Breeders have ruined lines without AI (or frozen semen) so its clearly not AI (or frozen semen) that is the root problem. The problem is the people not the technique. People will always do dumb stuff, its in our nature.

I think his second point is that you have seem to be using AI and frozen semen as one and the same and they are clearly not.

I think his third point is that you started your discussion with concerns about the genetic integrity of lines of dogs as your arguement for banning AI (and/or Frozen Semen) and yet you secure your dogs from the pound, where in many cases there are no reliable records of any genetic line at all. (Which is admirable, but for different reasons than ensuring/maintaing genetic integrity.)


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Flash01 said:


> I think you made Scott's point for him.
> 
> Breeders have ruined lines without AI (or frozen semen) so its clearly not AI (or frozen semen) that is the root problem. The problem is the people not the technique. People will always do dumb stuff, its in our nature.
> 
> ...


Put that way, it's what I call a reasonable post. It's thought out, it makes sense, and I can see the point. It's also thousands of times more constructive. So now I have a question for you.

In point two, are you referring to a difference in purpose? I'll agree with you there, but otherwise you'll need to explain yourself since any attempt to google AI and frozen sperm inevitably leads to them being connected.

Point three is fine, except for the fact that as a likely buyer of a trial bred dog down the road it is a concern of mine. Not to mention that whether people like it or not, what goes on in the breeding world trickles right down to those of us who take the scraps and try to turn it into something. If you see my point.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Well I'm certainly calling BS on this statement.
> 
> All you've done here is resort to personal attacks on me and my dogs and tell me I'm not entitled to my opinion because I don't breed or trial dogs and haven't yet bought one from a breeder.
> 
> ...


Wow, you wear me down man. You are like a bull headed shorthair. You just don't get it, until it is pounded into ya.LOL
How about this, YOU WIN . You are correct, lets ban AI in all dogs.:lol:
But now what are we gonna do with all that frozen semen?????????
Hey can I be there when you suggest this to the AKC and the AF ?????
I want to be able to laugh just as hard as they do.:lol:


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Put that way, it's what I call a reasonable post. It's thought out, it makes sense, and I can see the point. It's also thousands of times more constructive. So now I have a question for you.
> 
> In point two, are you referring to a difference in purpose? I'll agree with you there, but otherwise you'll need to explain yourself since any attempt to google AI and frozen sperm inevitably leads to them being connected.
> 
> Point three is fine, except for the fact that as a likely buyer of a trial bred dog down the road it is a concern of mine. Not to mention that whether people like it or not, what goes on in the breeding world trickles right down to those of us who take the scraps and try to turn it into something. If you see my point.


 
Point two - All frozen semen samples require AI but all AI does not require the use of frozen semen. 

Point three - If you are a "likely buyer of a trial bred dog down the road" I would make friends with the man you are arguing with. He is not one of the folks that you are concerned about, AI or no AI. Dont mean any offense in this, but you might learn something if you try to understand what he is saying rather then arguing with him.


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

crosswind said:


> I have no problem with someone making a post, be it an opinion or whatever, even one as ridiculous as the one that was made.
> But don't get upset because someone calls BS.
> Anyone that has any experience with frozen semen breedings(which he was continually calling AI) knows that that statement about banning it because of it tainting the breed, is an utterly ridiculous comment.
> I would think that if a person was going to post something like that, you should be prepared to support it(even if it is an OPINION) with some experience, facts or data. That did not happen.


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

BradU20 said:


> never mind...


:lol:


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> In point two, are you referring to a difference in purpose? I'll agree with you there, but otherwise you'll need to explain yourself since any attempt to google AI and frozen sperm inevitably leads to them being connected.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dallasdog (Nov 17, 2009)

a good thing about them pointers is if he dont work out you can chop his tail and call him a gsp and try him out that way.... its called (AM) artificial mutation!


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

crosswind said:


> Wow, you wear me down man. You are like a bull headed shorthair. You just don't get it, until it is pounded into ya.LOL
> How about this, YOU WIN . You are correct, lets ban AI in all dogs.:lol:
> But now what are we gonna do with all that frozen semen?????????
> Hey can I be there when you suggest this to the AKC and the AF ?????
> I want to be able to laugh just as hard as they do.:lol:


Scott,

I happened to go right to the last page of this thread having not even looked at the previous pages. I am sure someone pointed out that A/I and frozen semen breeding are two different things. I dont have time to go back through all the posts and there is no need. The suggestion that frozen semen breeding is a problem is absolutely ridiculous. The primary reason I post on any site is to try to balance some of these theories just as you are trying to do here. THANK YOU for taking the time! Contributions from people with your experience and knowledge are very valuable for those with modest experience.

I just did a frozen semen breeding. Photos of the parents are below. If this mating was not good for the breed then I have learned absolutely nothing in 30 years of breeding. The sire is a first year dog that qualified to go to the National Championship at Grand Junction. For those of you who are not familiar you might just say he made it to the super bowl. To do this as a first year is a rare feat. The owners did not want this dog bred via live cover so close to the national championship so we used frozen semen. I thought he was the best choice in the country for my dog so I made seven 3 hour round trips to do the progesterone and other testing necessary for a frozen semen breeding. Its not only time consuming but its about a $2,000 process so frozen semen litters are far more likely to be very carefully considered and a mating of superior individuals. 

The dam is probably the best female we have ever owned and we have owned a couple hundred. She placed in every Derby event she was ever entered except for the National Derby CH. She won four Shooting Dog stakes as a derby and won a CH as a first year dog. And, she is a phenomenal wild bird dog that could be handled by a 10 year old child. One of the people that has a reservations for this litter called a pro that had competed against her several times just to make sure about her. He said she was the best female Setter he had ever seen. This is a guy guys that has traveled all over the country.

I did not offer this account because I felt any need (not even a little) to justify what I was doing. I offered this because it illustrates that frozen semen breeding offers breeders the ability to use the stud dog they feel is absolutely the best fit in the country no matter what circumstances might otherwise make it difficult to orchestrate a given breeding.

BTW ... every pup in the litter is reserved by someone who will trial them.

SRB


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Not that you're looking for it here SB, but I hope you have much success in the results of this breeding. You guys certainly work hard in your efforts to identify what works best in order to improve the breed. 

Looking forward to watching this litter progress.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

crosswind said:


> WCH, if you are actually going to bother googling this AI stuff. To help you better understand it. You should start by googling Line Breeding first. It will give you a better understanding of the complete picture.


Whether you believe it or not I already understood the practice.

But I decided to take your advice anyhow and google it in case I missed anything. Be careful with that, this was one of the first items I found about line breeding.

"While linebreeding is less likely to cause problems in the first generation than does inbreeding, over time, linebreeding can reduce the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_diversity"]genetic diversity[/ame] of a population and cause problems related to a too-small [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genepool"]genepool[/ame] that may include an increased prevalence of genetic disorders..."

I'm not posting that as a way to argue with you, just to warn you of the risks of recommending people google anything. There were many more articles with similar warnings.

I know where you're coming from on this, I just don't think people are generally very responsible.



crosswind said:


> When you start to add up the costs to implant frozen semen it may set your mind at ease,(about banning it) it is outragously expensive.You often times end up with a small litter of very costly pups.To do the whole process will cost a person somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 thousand bucks.


That is comforting.



crosswind said:


> Again if you had researched this information before posting about banning AI. You would at least be able to speak inteligently on the subject to back your opinion.


Speak intelligently or say things that you want to hear? Somehow I doubt if I had all the credentials in the world I could change your mind. And that's ok. 

Thanks for the info though. It's useful.


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

dallasdog said:


> a good thing about them pointers is if he dont work out you can chop his tail and call him a gsp and try him out that way.... its called (AM) artificial mutation!


Findthebird?:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

Induna said:


> Findthebird?:lol::lol::lol::lol:


I'll say it again. Poor Major.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Induna said:


> Findthebird?:lol::lol::lol::lol:





GSP Gal said:


> I'll say it again. Poor Major.


Hey, he bumped a bird, and I had to do something to let him know I was unhappy! :lol::lol::lol:


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## anon21511 (Jan 13, 2006)

FindTheBird said:


> Hey, he bumped a bird, and I had to do something to let him know I was unhappy! :lol::lol::lol:


So you demoted him all the way to GSP?! That is harsh. I guess you really are serious about your dogs training! :lol:


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## coverdog (Dec 7, 2003)




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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Whether you believe it or not I already understood the practice.
> 
> Your right, I don't believe it, but keep reading you may learn something yet.:lol:


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

crosswind said:


> WestCoastHunter said:
> 
> 
> > Whether you believe it or not I already understood the practice.
> ...


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> .
> But I decided to take your advice anyhow and google it in case I missed anything. Be careful with that, this was one of the first items I found about line breeding.
> 
> "While linebreeding is less likely to cause problems in the first generation than does inbreeding, over time, linebreeding can reduce the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_diversity"]genetic diversity[/ame] of a population and cause problems related to a too-small [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genepool"]genepool[/ame] that may include an increased prevalence of genetic disorders..."
> ...


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Flash01 said:


> Point two - All frozen semen samples require AI but all AI does not require the use of frozen semen.
> 
> Point three - If you are a "likely buyer of a trial bred dog down the road" I would make friends with the man you are arguing with. He is not one of the folks that you are concerned about, AI or no AI. Dont mean any offense in this, but you might learn something if you try to understand what he is saying rather then arguing with him.


Flash,

It might clear this up a bit to point that there are different A/I methods are used based on the form of semen. Vaginal insemination is most common when the male is present or fresh chilled semen is used. Frozen semen is done via surgical implant in the vast majority of cases. The reason is very simple. Fresh chilled semen lives 36-48 hours and frozen semen only lives 12-24 hours.

SRB


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Scott if your going to be selling those pups for less than 400.00 I could put a second mortgage on my travel trailer and get one. But it would have to be a female only!


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Birdhuntr1 said:


> So you demoted him all the way to GSP?! That is harsh. I guess you really are serious about your dogs training! :lol:


I think it worked, he found and handled a lot of grouse last season and took runner-up in each of the two '09 Gladwin Hunting dog stakes as a stubby. If he keeps it up, a nice prosthetic is in his future!:lol:


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> I think it worked, he found and handled a lot of grouse last season and took runner-up in each of the two '09 Gladwin Hunting dog stakes as a stubby. If he keeps it up, a nice prosthetic is in his future!:lol:


This conversation has gone from a question about Pointer breeders and devolved to semen and a little tail.

I for one think this thread should end before it gets anymore dirty. :lol:

Thanks for the lively debate and information.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> Scott if your going to be selling those pups for less than 400.00 I could put a second mortgage on my travel trailer and get one. But it would have to be a female only!


 A trial washout from that breeding could still really be something (although there may not be any washouts from the sound of it).


WestCoastHunter said:


> This conversation has gone from a question about Pointer breeders and devolved to semen and a little tail.
> 
> I for one think this thread should end before it gets anymore dirty. :lol:
> 
> Thanks for the lively debate and information.


...yet another long and winding thread on the MS board!:lol::lol:


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

kek25 said:


> Not that you're looking for it here SB, but I hope you have much success in the results of this breeding. You guys certainly work hard in your efforts to identify what works best in order to improve the breed.
> 
> Looking forward to watching this litter progress.


Thanks Keith,

I have had an eye on Jettsun since he was a puppy. I have known Eric and Mardelle for about 20 years so he knew this dog is the prototype for what we are looking to produce. The level of cooperation and collaboration among the top Setter breeders has really improved. We could not take the approach we have if it were not for the input we get from many trusted advisors all over the country. A couple of the HB guys have helped or efforts. Jack Elliott at Hytest Setters has been particularly helpful. Of course, he is an all-age HB guy. He evaluates as many dogs as we do and sends us the prospects he has that are really exceptional but do not run enough for him. He is in the process of sending us younger sister to CH Hytest Skyhawk that is phenomenal but not quite enough run for him which of course will still make her a very competitive walking dog.. Skyhawk and Berg Bros Jack's mothers are sisters. That will present one heck of a nice opportunity for a line breeding with her to Jack. I bet Crosswind will be nodding with approval when he sees this post. 

There are a couple young Setter brothers getting a lot of attention right now that you would really like. They are your kind of dogs. Just a little bigger than my ideal but they are phenomenal athletes. Even better they have great minds and were exceptional wild bird dogs at a very young age. They are out of CH Cant Go Wrong and CH Houstons Belle. Ridge Creek Cody just placed in the quail futurity. He is about 52 lbs in field trial shape and a tremendous specimen. Houstons Black Jack is even bigger, probably 55-56. He is a freak athlete and man is he a bird dog. We will have the 1st litter he sired on the ground in 2 weeks. Cody is owned by Larry Brutger who is a friend that trains with us all the time so I saw Cody from the time he was a little puppy. Cody is with Shawn Kinkelaar until sometime in March. Both of these dogs being local is going to be helpful. Codys photo is below. This was taken on our grounds. We were just polishing him up on birds before a trial and he knew it was a set-up and did not have his normal flair. 

SRB


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> Thanks Keith,
> 
> I have had an eye on Jettsun since he was a puppy. I have known Eric and Mardelle for about 20 years so he knew this dog is the prototype for what we are looking to produce. The level of cooperation and collaboration among the top Setter breeders has really improved. We could not take the approach we have if it were not for the input we get from many trusted advisors all over the country. A couple of the HB guys have helped or efforts. Jack Elliott at Hytest Setters has been particularly helpful. Of course, he is an all-age HB guy. He evaluates as many dogs as we do and sends us the prospects he has that are really exceptional but do not run enough for him. He is in the process of sending us younger sister to CH Hytest Skyhawk that is phenomenal but not quite enough run for him which of course will still make her a very competitive walking dog.. Skyhawk and Berg Bros Jack's mothers are sisters. That will present one heck of a nice opportunity for a line breeding with her to Jack. I bet Crosswind will be nodding with approval when he sees this post.
> 
> ...


 Scott, per usual, your dogs look great.
Hey I just want to give you a tid bit of info that was passed along to me about line breeding that I thought you may need to know.

"While linebreeding is less likely to cause problems in the first generation than does inbreeding, over time, linebreeding can reduce the 
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_diversity"]genetic diversity[/ame] 
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_diversity"]







Genetic_diversity[/ame] 
of a population and cause problems related to a too-small 
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genepool"]genepool[/ame] 
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genepool"]







Genepool[/ame] 
that may include an increased prevalence of genetic disorders..."

:lol::lol::lol: I don't know what all those W's mean

Also you may want to get that frozen semen litter registered real quick because I have heard a rumor that they (the AF) may ban those litters from registration. Not for sure , just a rumor I heard.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

SB:

Cody is a nice looking boy. Nice head, deep chest, leggy, and good lines. Not to mention stylish on point.  If you come across video clips of Cody or Black Jack on the run I'd appreciate it if you'd forward them to me ([email protected]). We're low on kennel space right now, but I'm fairly certain there will be a Berg Brothers' setter in our future.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

"While linebreeding is less likely to cause problems in the first generation than does inbreeding, over time, linebreeding can reduce the 
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_diversity"]genetic diversity[/ame] 
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_diversity"]







Genetic_diversity[/ame] 
of a population and cause problems related to a too-small 
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genepool"]genepool[/ame] 
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genepool"]







Genepool[/ame] 
that may include an increased prevalence of genetic disorders..."

:lol::lol::lol: I don't know what all those W's mean
[/QUOTE]

Scott,

These statements are completely accurate. Uninterrupted line breeding does have negative effects. Of course, what is missing here is that the next paragraph would go into the need to outcross to avoid these negative effects. And, the next chapter would go into details of outcrossing. For the most part, these negatives are of very little concern to anyone practicing line breeding because in practical terms skilled breeders are always looking to inject specific attributes from other lines. Outcrossing is a welcomed and normal part of the process. The only exception is the Llewellin who have closed that opportunity off. 

Outcrossing is the actually the easy part. Coming up with superior individual with common ancestry requires much greater effort and cost. Its no popular because it requires a breeder to have a pretty fair number of dogs or work collaboratively. It also requires a greater degree of selectivity which means considerably greater cost. How many breeders does anyone know who will evaluate 8 or 10 females to get a superior individual for breeding? As you know its also definitely not convenient. The right individual whether it be for line breeding or outcrossing purposes is often more difficult to reach. 

It is odd to hear a Pointer guy speak negatively about line breeding when the most notable breeders in the history of the breed have practiced line breeding.  

SRB


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> "While linebreeding is less likely to cause problems in the first generation than does inbreeding, over time, linebreeding can reduce the
> genetic diversity
> Genetic_diversity
> of a population and cause problems related to a too-small
> ...


Scott,

These statements are completely accurate. Uninterrupted line breeding does have negative effects. Of course, what is missing here is that the next paragraph would go into the need to outcross to avoid these negative effects. And, the next chapter would go into details of outcrossing. For the most part, these negatives are of very little concern to anyone practicing line breeding because in practical terms skilled breeders are always looking to inject specific attributes from other lines. Outcrossing is a welcomed and normal part of the process. The only exception is the Llewellin who have closed that opportunity off. 

Outcrossing is the actually the easy part. Coming up with superior individual with common ancestry requires much greater effort and cost. Its no popular because it requires a breeder to have a pretty fair number of dogs or work collaboratively. It also requires a greater degree of selectivity which means considerably greater cost. How many breeders does anyone know who will evaluate 8 or 10 females to get a superior individual for breeding? As you know its also definitely not convenient. The right individual whether it be for line breeding or outcrossing purposes is often more difficult to reach. 

It is odd to hear a Pointer guy speak negatively about line breeding when the most notable breeders in the history of the breed have practiced line breeding. 

SRB[/QUOTE]

OH the next paragraph was not sent to me, Humm I wonder why.
Man , Im glad you typed all that stuff for an explination it kept me from having to do it. :lol:
I was saving that for later. I didn't want to throw too much at once on our non believer. He is like a bull headed shorthair ya know.They only pick up a little bit at a time, but they do get there in the end.
Good talkin to ya Scott

PS. I was looking for about 3 years before I found my outcross.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

kek25 said:


> SB:
> 
> Cody is a nice looking boy. Nice head, deep chest, leggy, and good lines. Not to mention stylish on point.  If you come across video clips of Cody or Black Jack on the run I'd appreciate it if you'd forward them to me ([email protected]). We're low on kennel space right now, but I'm fairly certain there will be a Berg Brothers' setter in our future.


Keith,

I am sure Larry would be all for shooting some video of Cody and he comes over almost every week so it should be no problem. Blackjack is owned by Frank Lanasa. Frank only lives a little over an hour form the kennel. Frank is a great guy and I am sure he would be willing to come over for a little video session. Frank is a pointer guy but really believes in this dog and would like to see him contribute to the breed.

We can also shoot some video of the pups we get out of these two males. The first ones will be ready to put on birds in June.

SRB


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## dallasdog (Nov 17, 2009)

im noticing a trend on the whole upland dog trainning forum... between human personality and dog breed... hmmm


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