# Ruffed Grouse survey?



## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

Gamekeeper said:


> It's a shame that ruffed grouse culture evolved into such a nasty lot.


And here you are casting out insulting remarks on your every post....:lol::lol:


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I suppose referring to complete stranger's as POS's is just every day friendly banter?
30+ years of studying grouse hunting culture allows for seeing the forest and the trees.

We have millions of acres and declining participation rates.


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## Mr. Uplander (Jul 6, 2015)

Is the guy a d bag or a pos? Don't know him so I can't say. What I will say is seams like it's trying to take a short cut. I dont take short cuts with my dog training, and im not going to take shortcuts in my scouting. What ever happened to scouting and putting some miles on the dog to find some new spots? As said on this thread there are millions of acres to hunt in Michigan, and I intend to cover them all at some point


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Enterprising, would be my descriptor for the FOIA requester. I bear them no malice.
Because I also know not all the land surveyed is public, and you still have to hit them. It's not like there is only one route. And grouse respond to pressure during season, just like deer do.

It's the people's information. We pay for it's collection. Bureaucrats should not be allowed to decide whether the public should have their information or not. Drumming routes are not state secrets.
On the flip side, Reimbursing aggregation costs is fair game as well. I don't know if paying $15.00/hr for drumming count summaries would be a good investment. Might better buy gas.

Technology has totally changed the game.
It is what it is. No going back now.

Take a newby with you. Show them some spots.
When we lose participation, and our patrons at the DNR age out, we run the risk of MI being run like other "big game is the big game" states.

When a recreational use declines enough, it no longer gets much support in government.


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## Mr. Uplander (Jul 6, 2015)

I hold no ill will towards the man, not doing the hard work myself just isn't my bag of tea. And I'll be doing my share this fall on the next generation, got my son all jacked up to go hunting. Even told him to bring a friend if he wants!


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## kdogger (Jan 10, 2005)

ejellis said:


> Woodcock singing ground surveys are compiled by the US Fish and Wildlife Service. I hear they are coming out in August this year, not sure why there is a delay as they are usually out earlier. The folks who compile them are as busy as it gets so that is likely the case.
> 
> The grouse drumming surveys were in fact suspended this year due to a FOIA request by one individual. The information requested included the exact locations of the survey routes and the number of drumming grouse heard at each stop along these routes. One does not need to think too hard to figure out what this information would be used for. This does not impact past surveys of course but all surveys conducted after this person had the information and a hunting season to work with puts the validity of the surveys in question. Thus, the DNR decided to suspend them for this year as opposed to having their biologists spend a ton of time collecting data that is not 100% valid. The results are tainted by having someone specifically target the routes and stops with the most birds while not putting the same amount of effort into other routes/stops.
> 
> The future of these surveys is still in question. Oh, and that guy should be ashamed of himself as he single handedly jeopardized a long term data set that is extremely important in managing the birds we care about. Just one example, drumming surveys are one of the key data sets the folks in other states (south of us) are using to monitor and track potential impacts of West Nile Virus on ruffed grouse. The year to year information in these surveys is vital for that type of research. But this guy thought his hunting and ease of finding a spot were more important. I can't get over how Incredibly selfish this is.



That's assuming the person who received the request used it for this purpose. You have no idea why the filed the request and if they did or did not hunt those routes.

I'm calling BS until you post proof the survey was suspended for a FOIA request.


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## kdogger (Jan 10, 2005)

I cooperate in the flush reports every season they usually send me a report with the survey sheet a day or two either side of September 10th.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Mr. Uplander said:


> I hold no ill will towards the man, not doing the hard work myself just isn't my bag of tea. And I'll be doing my share this fall on the next generation, got my son all jacked up to go hunting. Even told him to bring a friend if he wants!


That's the spirit!


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I hold ill will because the guy is lazy. I would really hold ill will if the DNR told him that his actions would stop the drumming counts and he continued anyways but, we will never know that. I take plenty of new people to "my spots", not worried about that at all. I do get annoyed with all the constant laziness out there. All the good grouse hunters I know use tons of tools to find birds but, they don't follow someones car and they sure as hell don't do an FOIA to find spots.

You must not understand how scientific data is collected if you don't think this FOIA will taint the data.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

So change the routes.
Data is from the past. It already happened.
What I do tomorrow has no bearing on the data collected last May.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

It is apparent to me who the FOIA requester was.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

It's not me, or anyone I know.
If the grouse routes are anything like the quail routes, it's a lot of driving, sitting, and listening. 
For the typical cost of a FOIA request, it would be a very poor investment.

A hunter is better of with MI Hunt and compartment reviews, coupled to a summer visit looking for broods.

A multi decade research project whose integrity relies on specific secret routes isn't worth the effort to produce. It's too fragile of a methodology A fire, a tornado, or One new road or house and it's scrap. 
One person targeting male grouse when the daylight hours get just right would have to be covering many miles per day, be shooting grouse off logs, and still have to stay within poss limits. And they'd actually be targeting last springs logs, as some percentage of them would not hold a fall drummer. It would seem they'd have to drive past miles of good cover to maybe find a drummer on a log.
Such a strong reaction by state employees over this smacks to me of a different reason for the decision, if in fact any of that stuff is actually true.


I'm not a fan of bureaucrats deciding they don't want me (or the public for that matter) to have research information whose collection I am paying for. It's a principle of open government to me, not a lazy way to maybe shoot birds.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

From RGS web site on ruffed grouse biology...
"Male Ruffed Grouse are aggressively territorial throughout their adult lives, defending for their almost exclusive use a piece of woodland that is 6-10 acres in extent. Usually this is shared with one or two hens. The male grouse proclaims his property rights by engaging in a "drumming" display."

The way the drumming survey works is the same routes have been run for decades. The exact stopping points are used each year. Past data is unaffected, but being able to track future trends continuity is vital. I don't think I need to spell out how getting gps points to places with 3-4 drummers over a couple years then focusing on those 30 acres or so can mess up data.

This is akin to getting gps readings from the gps tagged woodcock and hunting them. If this screwball wants to put in his own work and listen for drummers in the spring to help decide where to hunt is one thing, but to use research data is just being an idiot. 

I also do everything I can to help new hunters, out of town hunters or anyone who wants help. I wrote a document to help teach how to scout and hunt grouse and have passed it out free to literally 200-300 people. The spot I use as an example in the document is a spot I hunt!


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

It seems a very low percentage technique to me.
I wouldn't refer to woodcock banding studies until after reading the data sets from Pautuxent. There's some ....unfortunate... data therein.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Gamekeeper said:


> It seems a very low percentage technique to me.
> I wouldn't refer to woodcock banding studies until after reading the data sets from Pautuxent. There's some ....unfortunate... data therein.


Can you post a link?

I'm pretty sure the drumming survey was primarily conducted by volunteers.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

All the route studies are by volunteers, AFAIK. I quit volunteering for the quail surveys back in the late 90's when we moved. 

Patuxent will send you banding and harvest data. It's on a CD.
You'll see some disturbing stuff that conflicts with the argument of this thread.
Consequently, woodcock banding studies can't support the argument being made here over the FOIA request contaminating the long term validity of the drumming counts. If it could, there wouldn't be woodcock banding either.

Sometimes an activity has just run it's course. Resources get re-deployed. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze anymore.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Gamekeeper said:


> All the route studies are by volunteers, AFAIK. I quit volunteering for the quail surveys back in the late 90's when we moved.
> 
> Patuxent will send you banding and harvest data. It's on a CD.
> You'll see some disturbing stuff that conflicts with the argument of this thread.
> ...


You're just spewing opinions with zero knowledge of methods, results, heck your not even talking about the same species! 

The drumming surveys are mostly done by wildlife biologists or techs. One year in the 2000's they were stopped and RGS lined up some of us to volunteer, once that was. Otherwise they strive to have the same person do the survey for consistency. 

Your the only one mentioning woodcock banding, as far as I know that has not been FOIAd, unless you did that too. Your lack of knowledge on this is really shining through. 

My feelings are if drumming surveys are ended managements end will soon follow. If there is no monitoring of the population there is little interest in it.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I think you added woodcock surveys a few posts up. EJEllis mentioned them in #18, then you expanded on it in #33.

I stated that woodcock data would be a poor choice and left it at that.

Again, I've never foia'd anything.

I think the FOIA request a waste of time. As I said several times.

It's also legal. and essential to maintaining some semblance of an open government.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Gamekeeper said:


> I think you added woodcock surveys a few posts up. EJEllis mentioned them in #18, then you expanded on it in #33.
> 
> I stated that woodcock data would be a poor choice and left it at that.
> 
> ...


To correct you again, Ejellis when writing about woodcock "singing survey", note not banding, was answering the question of the op on timing of release of surveys. Nothing about banding and/or foia. Your the one who made that leap on your own. 

Also I used the "gps tracking study" not banding, as an analogy to the type of info the Foia guy is getting. Nothing about foia and woodcock banding. Again you made the leap.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

I just have to say if you want it work for it.There are no short cuts.people who complain want something.People who don't complain go out and get.I think we all no the reason this person filed.just my opinion!


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## ejellis (Aug 20, 2014)

kdogger said:


> That's assuming the person who received the request used it for this purpose. You have no idea why the filed the request and if they did or did not hunt those routes.
> 
> I'm calling BS until you post proof the survey was suspended for a FOIA request.


Here is a direct quote from an upcoming Wisconsin Outdoor News article written by Dave Zeug, likely to be printed in Michigan as well. Or is this BS that I have no idea about as well? 

_MICHIGAN


Unlike her sister states, Michigan’s Department of Natural Resources elected to not do drumming counts this spring for a disturbing reason according to Al Stewart, MDNR’s Upland Game Bird Specialist. “We didn’t conduct our normal spring drumming grouse survey this year because of concerns over past open records requests from a hunter whose activities jeopardized the validity of the survey,” said Stewart._


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Proof is in.lol


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## mrmurray98 (Aug 13, 2016)

Ky fastflyer said:


> I wish Mi. would publish the survey results a little sooner, like about this time of year as Minn. & Wis. instead of September, but ultimately, the drumming survey probably plays the least important role in my decision to grouse hunt in Mi, because, even at the bottom of the cycle, I can still find more birds there in a week than I can here all season...
> So a decreasing drum count doesn't stop me from coming, it's just a increasing one makes me want to come that much more, the main stumbling block for me is getting someone to go with me...
> 
> I understand you guy's don't want others hunting your spots, especially out-of-staters, can't say I blame you...
> I will say this, Michigan sportsman, especially grouse hunters are" blessed" with a good grouse population, sustainable habitat through timber harvest rotations, and not to mention about 4.5 million acres of public hunting, I'd give about anything, if l could say the same about Ky....


Same here in Ohio, I can go to Michigan and have more flushes in one day than an entire season in Ohio!

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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