# Electric Baseboard Heat?



## Michael Wagner (Jul 17, 2007)

We built a 12'X14' shed/cabin to accompany our camper in the northwoods and are looking to add heat. I have a 15,000 btu propane heater but that takes up a good bit of room. I have a favorable opinion of baseboard from a heating expert just wondering if anyone has any hands on experience with them. Thanks
Mike


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## PLUMMER47 (Dec 9, 2006)

EXPENSIVE to run........


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

them radiant propane heater elements that go on a 20 pound tank work great. We use them at deer camp with our mobile cabin.


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## Michael Wagner (Jul 17, 2007)

Thats part of what I`m looking for, someone who has an idea of electric compared to propane, a 100 lb. and two 40 lb. fills got to be pretty expensive.


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## oxdog66 (Mar 8, 2011)

Electricity isn't camping !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Michael Wagner (Jul 17, 2007)

oxdog66 said:


> Electricity isn't camping !
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol::lol::lol: You sir are correct!!!! We started with a school bus I gutted and made into a house in 1981 when I bought the property, graduated to a popup in 2000 and last year got a heck of a deal on a new 32' travel trailer and built a cabin connected to it, as much as I miss my bus and plywood and air mattress bed I really really like what we have now (so does the wife :evil


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## WoW (Oct 26, 2010)

Gotta ask, do you already have power run to your site "in the north woods" or are you going to have to come up with an electrical source as well?


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## oxdog66 (Mar 8, 2011)

i love them old school bus campers used to see alot of them now they are all nascar campers but real cool


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## Michael Wagner (Jul 17, 2007)

WoW said:


> Gotta ask, do you already have power run to your site "in the north woods" or are you going to have to come up with an electrical source as well?


Electric will be come in May, would have been in last fall but after all the I`s were dotted and T`s crossed Great Lks. Elec. delayed 3 times and all of a sudden "frost laws" were in effect and the price went up substantcially, we cancelled till now.


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## FERG 06 (Oct 6, 2006)

Michael Wagner said:


> :lol::lol::lol: You sir are correct!!!! We started with a school bus I gutted and made into a house in 1981 when I bought the property, graduated to a popup in 2000 and last year got a heck of a deal on a new 32' travel trailer and built a cabin connected to it, as much as I miss my bus and plywood and air mattress bed I really really like what we have now (so does the wife :evil


 
Ain't it funny how we change w/age.  We started out in a tent. After getting rained out w/young kids we tried a pop up but with 1 dirt bike on a bumper carrier in the front & 1 on the rear bumper of a Dodge Ramcharger while towing said camper it was alot of work loading so I bought a new pick up & an old truck camper. Towing a trailer behind it or a boat was alot easier and more versitile.
That old camper didn't have a potty, only 12 gal water tank (no hot water) manual water pump which I upgraded to a elect. one. We went all over the state w/that one & even a trip to Florida. Upgraded the truck camper twice over the years to the one I have now. 40g water tank, 12 hot water, forced air heat, one piece fiberglass bath, carpeting, queen size bunk, elect. jacks, 40 lbs of propane, heated water/sewage compartments, oven & 10" color tv in it's own compartment! 
In the last 5 yrs now we have only used it twice because the parents newly built cottage on a private lake is soooo nice. 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, big great room w/fireplace, wrap around deck & walk out basement w/hot tub! Yeah it's not camping but the old bones like it alot more. :lol:
I still find myself yearning to do some camping :chillin: but not in a tent! :lol:


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## Michael Wagner (Jul 17, 2007)

Our first November deer camps in the 70`s was a pickup truck with a cap on the back and a tarp stretched off that, no heat, water out of milk jugs and facilities that would take your breath away and we thought we were kings of the world. I miss those days dearly but never would go back.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

All things considered, electric resistant heat will cost more than twice as much as propane.


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## WoW (Oct 26, 2010)

Once you have power, consider a propane wall furnace with an electric blower. That will more than serve your needs.


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## PLUMMER47 (Dec 9, 2006)

Splitshot said:


> All things considered, electric resistant heat will cost more than twice as much as propane.


Very true... $ 4.75 of electricity = 100,000 BTU's and $.82 of propane via tank refill not delivery type is = 100,000 BTU. 3.50 (seasonal customer price)for pig delivery. 

Since your putting all this effort in for your pride and joy, as did I before. You might wanna look at something as simple as bales of straw around the perimeter and tarping over the roof with visqueen. This is what we did for our pop up in the Dead stream swamp. Made a 30lb tank go along way. Also we used 55 gallon drums to catch rain water for the grey water when we weren't there. Another thing that I helped on in the UP was a solar panel system for the cabin and for all the time it spends feeding back when they are not there they don't have to pay anything for while they are there or very little. Then electricity cost wouldn't be an issue except for the initial investment.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Michael Wagner said:


> We built a 12'X14' shed/cabin to accompany our camper in the northwoods and are looking to add heat. I have a 15,000 btu propane heater but that takes up a good bit of room. I have a favorable opinion of baseboard from a heating expert just wondering if anyone has any hands on experience with them. Thanks
> Mike


Here's the skinny on this:

Electric per my engineer and my experience is the cheapest form of heat accept firewood, corn/wood pellets (and those two are close)
220 is your first choice I've been witness to extreme cost effectiveness of the gell filled, but also was witness to reliability issues and I can't say that it wasn't self induced errors.

a wall heater (ventless) is awesome. thats hands down my second choice.

I have a few spare older baseboard heaters you are welcome too if you are in this area.

It's simple the average 30ish foot camper uses up a propane tank (30lb) in about 2.5 days during rifle season, and only being used a few hours a day. Yet during the dead of winter a 36ft huge slide only used $300.00 per month for the coldest months heating solely with 2 off the shelf electic heaters (110volt).

A 30lb tank on a ventless heater in a 10 by 14 insulated cabin lasts about 5 days at 60/70 degrees.

The electric baseboard heaters are also extremely reliable. (accept the question about the expensive gell filled heaters)


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Splitshot said:


> All things considered, electric resistant heat will cost more than twice as much as propane.


Split shot.
Times have changed. that used to be the case. But with fuel costs etc. that's no longer the case.

electric is comparable to the cost of a good ventless propane burner, but is still less costly.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Sorry but you don't have a clue. Electric is and always will be the most expensive. The main reason is electric line loses are very high while dilivery of gas, oil, propane have a cost associated with dilivery none of the energy us kist along the way. 

While electric is 100% efficient at the heater, it still takes 292 kwh to produce 1 million btus or $29.20 at $.10 a kwh. Natural gas cost about $10.00 per 1 million btus. My propane furnace is 92% effiient so my cost per 1 million btus is $16.30.

Standard gas and propane furnaces are 80% efficiency which means a comparable 1 million btu's cost $12.50. Propane at $1.50 a gallon means the same 1 million usable btus cost $18.75.

Ventless furnaces are also 100% efficient, but all the moisture produced can cause mold and mildew proplems and all the associated health related problems that go with it. In MI they should only be used to help heat areas like additions that don't have enough duct work to keep them the same temp as the rest of the dwelliing.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Splitshot said:


> Sorry but you don't have a clue. Electric is and always will be the most expensive. The main reason is electric line loses are very high while dilivery of gas, oil, propane have a cost associated with dilivery none of the energy us kist along the way.
> 
> While electric is 100% efficient at the heater, it still takes 292 kwh to produce 1 million btus or $29.20 at $.10 a kwh. Natural gas cost about $10.00 per 1 million btus. My propane furnace is 92% effiient so my cost per 1 million btus is $16.30.
> 
> ...


you have some very impressive figures, thank you for that. I'm not up to digesting them right now.. but I think I'm going to pull out my charts and take a gander later. Interesting figures.

But. my real life experience is different. I run both side by side and know exactly what my end cost is. and... I"m a propane dealer so my cost per btu is less than other folks using propane.

I did forget another alternative that I occasionally put into homes when I remodel them. Propane lanterns. Something I picked up from the Amish. We use them in the morning while waiting for the woodstove to pick up speed and the light.

I do NOT recommend heavy use of them without a carbon monoxide sensor though.

The efficiency is unusually good.

At the 5th wheel I use a basic propane coleman for light instead of electric lights (outside during the summer bbqing), again it's cut my costs and is more effective.

I think in the case of propane heat, versus electric base board heat me and you are going to have to agree to disagree.

I see, and like your points, but they contradict my real life experience of 3 winters now, running the two side by side and customers winter use of electric heat in their campers versus propane.

The numbers that you give look good, but just don't equal what we are experiencing. My question is where is the difference? That'll take some digesting to see.

Again thanks for bringing the facts to us in such a diplomatic manner!

We'll have to do brunch sometime since we're purtinear neighbors


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

Not allowed to run a ventless heater in this application. Any space that a person can sleep a vented heater is required. A direct vent only requires a mere concentric termination through the wall. It'll allow for combustion air as well as exhaust.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

tinmarine said:


> Not allowed to run a ventless heater in this application. Any space that a person can sleep a vented heater is required. A direct vent only requires a mere concentric termination through the wall. It'll allow for combustion air as well as exhaust.


it's crazy to run any type of combustion heat with out make up air or ventilation, particularly in smaller rooms.

thanks for pointing that out.

It's always best to check local codes before anything like this, more importantly common sense and go beyond the salespersons advice and read the packaging cautions. (countless times I've had sales staff assure me it "meets code" when that was partially or completely incorrect.


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## tinmarine (Nov 19, 2007)

Normally I wouldn't say this, but I would go with the oil or gel filled electric. I have an electric (not filled) for our service porch as a supplimental heater. If we keep it around 70° at all times (25° temp rise on average) it raises our bill about $50 a month on average and that's running 24/7 during Dec and Jan. Given that it's not a permenant residence, the ease of installation, the steps they've come with electric efficiencies, it is a good fit for the application. Like Kevin, I see the results in the monthly bill. Like I said, I normally wouldn't recommend electric heat (I'm in HVAC) but sometimes it's better.


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

You can have opinions about lots of things, but math is math and numbers don't lie. Since I have designed hundreds of heating and cooling systems, over the last 30 years, I think I understand heat loads and the amount of energy in various fuels.

The only reason I posted on this thread was because your advice might cause someone to choose electric heat and would cost them dearly.

All these special oil filled electric heaters are rip offs. No big secret. 

There are about 3412 BTU's in a kwh, 95,500 in a gallon of propane, 140,000 in a gallon of fuel oil and about 100,000 btus in a hundred cubic feet of natural gas. Calculate how much of each fuel it takes to produce 1 million btus, divide that number by the efficiency of your heating plant then multiply that number by the actual cost of fuel.

With an 80% efficient propane furnace for example it will take 13.09 gallons of propane to produce 1 million btus into your structure.

Electric baseboard and the Amish oil filled electric heaters are both 100% efficient so multiply your killowat hour charge times 293 kwh.

Do the math and you won't need an opinion.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Splitshot said:


> You can have opinions about lots of things, but math is math and numbers don't lie. Since I have designed hundreds of heating and cooling systems, over the last 30 years, I think I understand heat loads and the amount of energy in various fuels.
> 
> The only reason I posted on this thread was because your advice might cause someone to choose electric heat and would cost them dearly.
> 
> ...


Your math is very impressive. And so does your heating and cooling knowledge appear to be. You did skip a few variables, but I think you made your point exceptionally well.

I won't harp on actual numbers anymore (bills and actual consumption don't normally lie, considering weather patterns and heat loss factors, coupled with conductivity and heat transfer/heat loss rates).

If I was looking for a heating expert I'd consider calling you, but I'm a bit worried about tunnel vision coupled with potential communication issues.

Either way, I have and I'm sure others have appreciated your amazing knowledge of btu's and the like.

I'd still enjoy brunch.

This has taken an interesting, yet enjoyable twist, thank you for that.


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