# New "Hybrid" Lab



## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

http://pheasantcity.com/dogs/retrievers_home.htm

_PHEASANT CITY HUNTING DOGS
A Breed Like No Other Anywhere

We started our own breed of hunting dogs at Pheasant City Lodge in 1997 by mating a Yellow Labrador with a German Shorthair. Over the years, we have always kept breeding stock that was structurally correct and naturally muscular with a great personality. Our females are medium size when compared to Labs. They hold their body condition on a limited amount of food and have maintained the great personality. The stud males are very strong, correct dogs that will walk up to any stranger and lick them in the face after a couple pats on the head. All adult breeding dogs must hunt, retrieve and track a downed bird with no formal training. In short, the dogs have to be a LOVER and a NATURAL HUNTER._

Another "designer breed" in the hunting world! :rant: :rant: :rant: :sad:


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)




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## Tecumseh (Aug 13, 2004)

They hold their body condition by limited amounts of food don't ya know..


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i can see advantages to crossbreeding, but i think the results are better when you breed two breeds that are mostly alike such as a lab and a chessie or a gsp and a pointer than two breeds that are dissimilar.

crossbreeding is pretty common in various forms among livestock and horses, both to form new breeds and to form a terminal cross. a most commercial beef cattle are crossbreds. various breeds of bulls are used to introduce desireable characteristics, but they are all beef breeds. we dont introduce dairy bulls into beef herds as that would introduce too many undersireable characteristics.

and many of the "club calves', 4H calves that go for very high prices are crossbreds, often three way crosses.

and if you look at the olympic horse,s you will see that many of them are crossbreeds, usually thoroughbreds and one of the european warmbloods . but again, those are similiar breeds. i saw a mare at lexington that was a new breed made up of 5 breeds. they tell me she was worth $300,000. and she was a performer, not just a curiosity. 

dog people have a more narrow view of the subject because we think of our breeds as more "set". but most breeds are the result of combining other breeds, often not that long ago.

on the other hand, there is nothing to be gained by crossing a pointer and a springer. most likely you will get a pointing dog that flushes birds, but so far from the gun you couldnt touch it with a shotgun.

so while it's good to keep an open mind and not get locked into the idea of breed purity, it's also wise not to just make a genetic stew, hope for the best and focus on the good points of the offspring and ignore the undesireable ones.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

crossbreeding is widespread in the animal world, livestock and horses but is usually most successful in breeding like to like, looking for nick of the best characteristics of each breed. 

commericial beef cattle are usually crossbred, as bulls are used to introduce different traits to the herd. also club calves- for 4H which sell for big money and are often 3 way crosses. many olympic horses, which are a cross of thoroughbreds and european warmbloods. the list is pretty long.

but breeding unlike to unlike, such as a springer and pointer, will give you a genetic stew. pointers and gsp's make sense and labs and chessies might. but not to widely divergent breeds, as a rule.


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## silverspoons (Jan 30, 2008)

If you don't like them, then don't buy one:16suspect


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

I wonder if you can get one in silver?


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## browndog49735 (Jan 29, 2006)

back when i lived with my parents and had no money i was given a shorthair/lab cross i killed many birds with her and she had no formal,(hell i did not know what formal was) training ,all natural.

big plantation in the south have been cross breeding for years.

if it works use it.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Hevi said:


> I wonder if you can get one in silver?



LOL


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## BarryPatch (Jul 21, 2004)

silverspoons said:


> If you don't like them, then don't buy one:16suspect


 
I certainly will not. But I do reserve my right to ridicule the idiots that breed these mutts and the fools that buy them - especially if they're silver.


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

Wonder if they are Hypoallergenic.


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## silverspoons (Jan 30, 2008)

BarryPatch said:


> I certainly will not. But I do reserve my right to ridicule the idiots that breed these mutts and the fools that buy them - especially if they're silver.


Thats a nice attitude, and Im sure the people who breed and own these dogs will rethink their position based on your well articulated response. Its too bad that the small number of people who have a similar interest (bird dogs) cant even get along. Its no wonder our numbers are shrinking. I dont own one of these dogs, nor would I buy one. However, I would never call someone an idiot for having one. If it helps them hunt birds, thats what its all about isnt it?


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## Tecumseh (Aug 13, 2004)

silverspoons said:


> I would never call someone an idiot for having one.


He wasn't calling someone an idiot for owning one. He is calling the breeder an idiot.


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

BarryPatch said:


> I certainly will not. But I do reserve my right to ridicule the idiots that breed these mutts and the fools that buy them - especially if they're silver.


Amen!


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

midwestfisherman said:


> ..._The stud males are very strong, correct dogs that will walk up to any stranger and lick them in the face..._


Hmm... are these dogs unusually tall, or do they just have bad manners?


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

These dogs, while I'm sure they are lovable and most likely decent bird dogs are the result of an out-of-control ego on the part of the so-called breeder. The link quotes: "We started are own breed...1997 ..." How can anyone create a 'breed' of anything in 11 years. "Breed" implies breeding to a predictable type and consistency. How consistent is the breeding if just one type - let's say for instance color - makes readily available six different color combinations? The breeder refers to them as "Labs" but they are not "Labs" if they are a cross between true Labs and true GSPs. And why are they more "Labs" than GSPs? 

"If they pass the hunting tests... they will be added to our hunting line..." What are the parameters of the hunt test, who are the judges...? Just who passes and fails them? I have a sneaking suspicion that failure is not a viable option in this breeding program.

There is no point in "...creating a new breed..." unless there is an improvement over the old ones. Do these "hybrid" dogs point better than their GSP progenitors or retrieve better than their Lab progenitors? If not, this begs the question: What is the point of the breeding? (please excuse the pun.) 

And of course the so-called breeder hasn't even given these dogs the benefit of a new breed name unlike huckster breeders of labradoodles, doberdoodles, basseteagles and the like. Why no name? I'll tell you why my unthinking little grasshoppr - because like the previous names which are an abomination but nonetheless catchy for inflated marketing practices and prices I defy anyone to come up with a catchy marketing name combining in one form or another "Labrador Retriever" and "German Shorthair Pointer." And that is exactly why this breeder hasn't come up with a name - because there is no name for these dogs that has the _cache_ of for instance "Labradoodle" which of course has great appeal to those who do all of their duck hunting while walking their dogs on a leash across a soccer field in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan.

"Excuse me sir, I can't help but notice your solid black, yellow and chocolate dog with white spots which is obviously out of a "...proven stud dog..." (for God sake's *ANY* dog that produces puppies can be called a "...proven stud dog..." ) standing up and licking my face even though I'm six feet tall. What kind of a dog is it, dare I ask?

"Why I'm surprised at your ignorance of the dog world my knuckle-dragging Neanderthal of a neighbor. That's a new breed that just came on the market last week. It's a Germanador, er' a Labrahair, no the breeder called it a Laberman. Yes that's what it is my hairy-palmed dufus - it's a Laberman."

Gimme a break!

And of course in this and other similar posts that have appeared on this forum over the years the apologists for breeding anarchy come out of the woodwork _ad nauseum_. To wit: (1.) "If they hunt - go for it." My first bird dog was picked up from the Detroit Dog Pound when I was a poor HS freshman. She was a truly great flushing bird dog that vaguely resembled a Springer Spaniel with short hair- pheasants, grouse, woodcock and if called upon she would even bring a rabbit or two around. Total cost - about eight dollars which included shots. So how many of you apologists are now going to head down to the Detroit Dog Pound in search of your next bird dog? I'll tell you how many - none. How many of you apologists actually believe that the Detroit Dog Pound is a great place to get a bird dog - I'll tell you none. (2.) "All of our present hunting dog breeds are the result of cross breeding." True - but they were bred by dedicated breeders who were looking for a particular type which was an improvement over existing breeds, done under the auspices of an official registry, decades and decades of the breeder's life was dedicated to a desired end and more likely than not there was an awful lot of culling - short term gain was not an option nor a consideration. (3.) "Mixed breeding of horses and cattle goes on so why not dogs?" - *BECAUSE WE DEDICATED DOG OWNERS CHOOSE TO HUNT, LOVE AND CHERISH OUR DOGS FOR AS LONG AS THEY ARE WITH US AS OPPOSED TO RIDING THEM, EATING THEM OR DRINKING THEIR MILK.*

Hoppe's no.10


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## WeimsRus (Oct 30, 2007)

If you do a little research on your breed, I'm thinking you might find a couple of knots in the wood pile. Every established line has to start someplace. I do know that most pure bred dogs are a mix, but are from established bloodlines. I am not a fan of designer dogs, but am a fan of a dog that hunts. Here is a little from some research on the Weim Breed that I did before the first one picked me:

The Weimaraner that we know today is the product of selective German breeding, and it came from the same general stock which has produced a number of Germany's hunting breeds, including the GSP. 

Can't really remember where I found this, but all the hunting breeds have been a result of slective breeding.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i dont think that this particular crossbreeding is a good match, the traits of the two breeds are too different and at cross purposes.

but just as the same laws of physics apply to everything from bicycles, to cars, trains and airplanes, the same laws of genetics apply to all species of animals. so the prinicple of crossbreeding to create individuals with different characteristics or new breeds with different characteristics if far from new. i can think of a long list of examples of different types.

there is certainly nothing to get upset about, without crossbreeding, none of our breeds of hunting dogs would exist today. and people with livestock or horses value them just as much as dog owners value their animals. in fact, in the former situations their livelihoods depend on it. i was there when a friend, a dairyman for many years put down an old cow that his son won state champion with. there were tears in his eyes. some of you folks just dont understand as you have spent your life in the city or suburbs with only dogs. but my friend had spent a lifetime building that herd and it was tough for him to sell them when it came time to retire. and he crossbred his heifers to a hereford bull to get smaller birthweights. very common practice and produces nice calves for lean beef.

i own a couple of crossbred animals now and have done it many times in the past. i've got a grouse trial english setter/llewellin cross that is an excellent dog. agile beyond belief, lots of endurance and physically tough. and a kiger mustang/quarterhorse gelding that i have turned down several big offfers for. best looking horse i have ever owned. and he can sping, slid and roll back and do it all without a bridle if i want.

you dont have to crossbreed, i own 5 other purebred english setters and a purebred quarterhorse. it's just another option and there is nothing unethical or stupid about it if it is done by choosing the proper sire and dam.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

There is a line of labs on earth for just about everyone. 

I tend to side with those that find the practice not so right, I am sure they are good dogs, and I am sure he finds good homes for them, and that is all that really matters.

If I wanted to rescue a puppy, and I wanted it to hunt, I would look for one of the many GSP/Lab crosses I see available every Saturday at PetsMart...I would guess they would be healthier then taking a chance at a Lab Pup Rescue not having the genetic history.

If the Lodge owner wanted Labs with more heat tolerance, he should have looked into some dogs from Texas...


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

I've been to the lodge twice and hunted with the dogs. They are fine hunters, have good personalities, and perform exactly as their owner wishes. He added the GSP into the labs in an effort to build heat tolerance and endurance. Bash him if you wish. He likes his dogs and they work well day after day, in any weather. If you want to buy one, do so. If not, don't.


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

BarryPatch said:


> I certainly will not. But I do reserve my right to ridicule the idiots that breed these mutts and the fools that buy them - especially if they're silver.


 
Amen again!!!


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## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

Jumpshootin' said:


> Here in Michigan a Lab/GSP cross would be a great dog if you wanted one that will retrieve porkies.:lol:


Hell with a little subsurface training might even be able to point trout. The old "A fool and their money are soon parted" is in order here. Pretty simple in my book, serious waterfowler buy a chessie, serious upland buy a setter or a pointer ( sorry gsp guys dont have enough experience W/ to comment ) All others do a lot of searching and buy a lab. If more effort, for lack of a better word, was put into breeding the lines we already have we and the dogs would be a lot better off.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

everlast1 said:


> Hell with a little subsurface training might even be able to point trout. The old "A fool and their money are soon parted" is in order here. Pretty simple in my book, serious waterfowler buy a chessie, serious upland buy a setter or a pointer ( sorry gsp guys dont have enough experience W/ to comment ) All others do a lot of searching and buy a lab. If more effort, for lack of a better word, was put into breeding the lines we already have we and the dogs would be a lot better off.


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## labdog99 (May 8, 2005)

Dave Medema said:


> He breeds maybe one litter a year, of which he'll keep 1-3 pups, and sells the rest. THe next year he may not have any litters. He isn't a puppy mill trying to start a new breed.


http://www.pheasantcity.com/dogs/puppies_sale.html

Odd it's only june and 3 litters on the ground this year already. Somebody got the bargin basement price of $1,500 for a white mutt.


_"Our strict attention to genetic selection is a main contributing factor in the consistently high quality pups we produce. *Our goals are to offer more spotted puppies;* though rare, we should be able to offer more in the future. We now have three young spotted prospects that we selected from two spring litters. If they pass the hunting tests, this fall they will be added to our breeding line." _

That is the greatest paragraph ever...:lol::lol:

Personally, I don't have to feed it or train it.....so whatever.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

labdog99 said:


> http://www.pheasantcity.com/dogs/puppies_sale.html
> 
> Odd it's only june and 3 litters on the ground this year already. Somebody got the bargin basement price of $1,500 for a white mutt.


I stand corrected. I haven't been there in a few years. He must have put a larger emphasis on his pups. When I was there, he was simply breeding for his own guide string and sold a few dogs here and there.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

CampBamf said:


> WOW. I was wondering when the age thing was going to come into play


I think it was more your attitude then your age....


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## CampBamf (Jul 25, 2006)

Whew,I'm glad you cleared that up.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

I got into this bird-hunting thing sort of by default. At the time, I was 23 years old. I was raised in a house with lots of dogs, lots of time spent outdoors, and pacifist, anti-hunting parents.

Starting my own family, I wanted a dog. A buddy of mine had a litter (which I now suspect was an accidental cross) between his GSP and his Brittany. I took a pup thinking she'd be a pet, nothing more, and found myself fascinated with her desire to point. I did some research and as I learned more about the breeds I learned more about hunting. I hooked up with some guys and over the past several years, upland hunting has become my obsession. 

Today, Connie is my go-to dog. She's rock solid on point, she retrieves every bird I shoot and she'll hunt reliably for hours at a time and several days back-to-back. She is the most obedient dog I've ever owned.

She is gentle with our cat and our 11 month old baby. She keeps my feet warm in the winter and is my running partner in the spring and summer. She even won the heart of my wife; a woman I married despite the fact that she HATED dogs! As a pup, she broke her leg and my wife was in tears at the thought of amputation or putting her down.

I also own a purebred EP. She's a good dog, a good hunter. I foresee a day when she'll be my only dog and I'm ok with that. She's no Connie though.

I had Connie fixed. If I wanted another like her, what would I cross her with? I'm not a breeder and my buddy's not a breeder. Her sire and dam were sold, and even if they hadn't been, I don't think I'd take my chances on another blind GSP/Brittany cross. I'm not a trialer, shower etc. and I'm certainly not a purebred snob. I like dogs and I like to hunt... That's it...
However, I understand that the odds of recreating what I have in Connie are one in a million. If a breeder had a track record of creating generations of "B-SP's" just like her, I'd shell out some major bucks for one, but the odds of creating that in a single cross are slim to none. I'm no geneticist, but my concern is that in trying to create a market "niche", careless breeders may inadvertently water down the characteristics that we appreciate in our dogs. The next time I go looking for a dog, it will be for one with a pedigree.

Just my $.02...

KW


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