# 10,000 yrs wasted and down the drain!



## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Collectively the bird dog and gundog training community that I personally know in this country and abroad would add up to somewhere around 10,000 years of experience. That would include 6 folks and or their dogs that are members of the Bird Dog Hall of Fame, Memphis Tenn. Some of these folks are Professional Gun/Bird Dog trainers, though most are dedicated Amateur trainers. These folks have labored in all sorts of weather, some under extreme financial duress, travel millions of miles and suffered setback after setback all in the name of helping a little dog become all that his breeder thought it could be. Because of the love and thoughtfulness that these passionate and committed folks have shown the little working dog, chasing the dream of that next great dog from a breeding that held so much promise.
Studying, learning how to communicate with a creature that spoke no English, developing the techniques that would work for him or her, yes some of those trainers are women. Sharing their experiences with the new person and helping the older trainer get out of rut or setback they carry on regardless. Attending countless workshops and seminars all across this once great land, all in the pursuit of knowledge that would help them in that endeavor of training the little working dog. Forming clubs and groups that sole mission was to improve their breed of choice and help others feel the way they felt about dogs and the work that the dog does.
I just donot know what to do. How do I contact all these folks and explain to them they are living a lie its a hoax a sham..what they do is just shadow boxing, not real. 
Its such a simple concept take your dogs to Mid Michigan and turn em loose in grouse cover. Let learn about the pine,the hawthorn and fern, thats all they need is wild birds in a wild environment. None of that hokey-pokey liberated bird stuff for the dogs and run them a pleasant meadow. Its so simple. The dogs are so sharp they no the difference, I could only imagine that my know its the weekend , How do handle my dog that becomes depress when the gun season ends..No Im sure that tossing a bumper would be far to phony. After all once you leave the world of shadow boxing you can never go back to the tame and mundane.
Quite honestly I think the (Stan SRC) should send his cocker to one of the Gurus up north have them retrain Jack as a proper grouse and rabbit dog. Once the news gets out that Im a charlatan and quack and faux gun trainer because I use pen raised birds and train in fake cover,and all the dogs go north to learn how to be a real Bird/Gun dog. I know my bird supplier are to be very unhappy when I tell them ..No soup for you!
I wonder would there be work for me in the retriever world..yikes maybe I have to have wild ducks to make a duck hunting dog. Does the wild bird theorem hold up for the non-slip retrievers dogs also. Does the dog retrieve better if he knows the marsh and where a dead is apt fall. Does the dog even need me to help on blinds. So much retraining so little time.
I really cannot go on, not a merry christmas


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## Charlie Bird (Dec 8, 2011)

Wow


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## ih772 (Jan 28, 2003)

Did someone forget to take their meds?


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Chip on Shoulder


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Duece22 said:


> Chip on Shoulder


No chip what so ever I shot that off this morning training dogs the old way..
Then went to clay range broke some targets and patterned a new load
nice day
But you could feel my sarcasm!


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Welcome to the net Hal.:evilsmile Merry Christmass to you and your family. I like a little hit off this when I'm lost, makes everything clear again.:lol:


Griff


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Hal, You know when you get to be our age you only have so many vents left so we must be careful not to wast any. I know there is a little jest in there along with a lot of passion and having had the chance to train with you I know you are very passionate about dogs and teaching people how to have success training them. I know there have been multiple threads touching on this subject and I am pretty sure if we all were to admit it we know the real story is the differences between training a dog to the perfect trialing/testing standard (may be worded wrong but you know what I mean) vs training and allowing a dog to include some self teaching with wild bird exposure to achieve hunters such as Steelheadfreds (and his ilk) (it's such a simple word...ilk) idea of the perfect meat/hunting dog. But they are really just two concepts (in a world of many) of what one may look for in a dog and not an attack on 10000 years of a proven methods used to achieve a desired results. In reality I personally would love to spend a weekend where yourself, Steelheadfred and I spent Saturday chasing wild Pheasants behind a brace of well trained perfectly quarting Springers followed by Sunday killing grouse behind a couple of Labs trained to put birds in front of our guns and meat in the bag. I would hope that the resulting thoughts would be that neither is right, neither is wrong, but they are both perfect.

Jim


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

You are a wise man Jim.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Jim58 said:


> Hal, You know when you get to be our age you only have so many vents left so we must be careful not to wast any. I know there is a little jest in there along with a lot of passion and having had the chance to train with you I know you are very passionate about dogs and teaching people how to have success training them. I know there have been multiple threads touching on this subject and I am pretty sure if we all were to admit it we know the real story is the differences between training a dog to the perfect trialing/testing standard (may be worded wrong but you know what I mean) vs training and allowing a dog to include some self teaching with wild bird exposure to achieve hunters such as Steelheadfreds (and his ilk) (it's such a simple word...ilk) idea of the perfect meat/hunting dog. But they are really just two concepts (in a world of many) of what one may look for in a dog and not an attack on 10000 years of a proven methods used to achieve a desired results. In reality I personally would love to spend a weekend where yourself, Steelheadfred and I spent Saturday chasing wild Pheasants behind a brace of well trained perfectly quarting Springers followed by Sunday killing grouse behind a couple of Labs trained to put birds in front of our guns and meat in the bag. I would hope that the resulting thoughts would be that neither is right, neither is wrong, but they are both perfect.
> 
> Jim


 
Merry Christmas Jim, very well written!


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Fred Hassing will be disappointed that he is only "shadow boxing"
That's the quote from Mike Mac


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Hal, 

Your methods worked wonderful on Mickey, Brit and Indy. Heck Mickey flushed more wild birds in his life than I can even try to remember . Brit is the only dog that I ever ran in the woods who darn near catches a wild grouse on the ground!!! Indy is a very consistent wild bird finder. He's the type of dog that will cover a lot of ground and if nothing flushes you can gaurantee nothing was there. All 3 of these dogs cut their teeth at your place using your methods. Whatever your doing keep it up!! 


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## BradleyA (Sep 28, 2009)

I don't know about 10,000 years... But definitely a wasted ten minutes. 


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Jim58 said:


> Hal, You know when you get to be our age you only have so many vents left so we must be careful not to wast any. I know there is a little jest in there along with a lot of passion and having had the chance to train with you I know you are very passionate about dogs and teaching people how to have success training them. I know there have been multiple threads touching on this subject and I am pretty sure if we all were to admit it we know the real story is the differences between training a dog to the perfect trialing/testing standard (may be worded wrong but you know what I mean) vs training and allowing a dog to include some self teaching with wild bird exposure to achieve hunters such as Steelheadfreds (and his ilk) (it's such a simple word...ilk) idea of the perfect meat/hunting dog. But they are really just two concepts (in a world of many) of what one may look for in a dog and not an attack on 10000 years of a proven methods used to achieve a desired results. In reality I personally would love to spend a weekend where yourself, Steelheadfred and I spent Saturday chasing wild Pheasants behind a brace of well trained perfectly quarting Springers followed by Sunday killing grouse behind a couple of Labs trained to put birds in front of our guns and meat in the bag. I would hope that the resulting thoughts would be that neither is right, neither is wrong, but they are both perfect.
> 
> Jim



Very well said Jim!


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Reminds me of the memo from Jerry Maguire.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

Apples and oranges. Other than being roundish, they don't have much in common. Hal trainers springers to be springers, competes in springer trials, in a springer world. That may or may not have anything to do with grousing labs and the Heller boys.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Dave Medema said:


> Apples and oranges. Other than being roundish, they don't have much in common. Hal trainers springers to be springers, competes in springer trials, in a springer world. That may or may not have anything to do with grousing labs and the Heller boys.


Actually when I and my Griff attended a training day with Hal I dont believe there were any springers present.

Jim


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Why does this **** always come back to the Heller boys? :yikes: Enough already.

Hal, please post that eggnog recipe you were sipping this morning as you sat behind the computer. 

Merry Christmas to all.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

gundogguy said:


> ... he is only "shadow boxing"
> That's the quote from Mike Mac


We know.

If you can't take a little criticism... if you're intolerant of different training ideas... then really sir, the internet is no place for you.

Now take a deep breath, push back from the keyboard, and go train the breed of your liking however you damn well please.

That is all.

KW


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

gundogguy said:


> Collectively the bird dog and gundog training community that I personally know in this country and abroad would add up to somewhere around 10,000 years of experience. That would include 6 folks and or their dogs that are members of the *Bird Dog Hall of Fame, Memphis Tenn*. Some of these folks are Professional Gun/Bird Dog trainers, though most are dedicated Amateur trainers. These folks have labored in all sorts of weather, some under extreme financial duress, travel millions of miles and suffered setback after setback all in the name of helping a little dog become all that his breeder thought it could be. Because of the love and thoughtfulness that these passionate and committed folks have shown the little working dog, chasing the dream of that next great dog from a breeding that held so much promise.


Are you referring to the Field Trial Hall of Fame in Grand Junction, TN or is there another organzation?


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

k9wernet said:


> We know.
> 
> If you can't take a little criticism... if you're intolerant of different training ideas... then really sir, the internet is no place for you.
> 
> ...



Wow the who gets to debate their opinion police has spoken.

I can't do emotions from my phone so you will have to guess which one I would have used!!!

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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

Mr. Botek said:


> MY dog is the best! Ask him yourself, he'll answer when he's done reading the newspaper!
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Wallstreet Journal or the New York Times?


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

I guess the good thing is that the dogs don't give a crap about any of this. They don't know what there potential is or if the other method would have been better. The only thing they know is that the best days of their short lives are when there provider takes them hunting, trialing, training, or banding. They don't care if it's with wild birds, released birds, planted birds, or a bumper thrown in a pond they just want to do it. It's probably a good thing because if they were aware of all of this they would more than likley (as Kevin so aptly put it) give us the middle toe emoticon.

Jim


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

Socks said:


> Wallstreet Journal or the New York Times?


Wall Street, he's a Type A!

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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> I didn't realize really how great it is till Jones came into our lives. Titles prove a lot imo about a dog, even if it's get will be meat dogs.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Fritz,

Over the years when I would run into a really exceptional HUNTING dog and look into the ancestry, nine times out of ten I would find the dog the dog had lots of CHs close-up in the pedigree. For some reason, I see a growing misconception about trial dogs role in producing hunting dogs. On several occasions I engaged people who visited grouse trials or spoke via phone to people that had visited. What I observed in most instances is that many people just did not grasp that trial dogs are pushed to an extreme to indentify the physically and mentally superior individuals. Testing criteria in most situations is pushed well beyond normal use. Its true of consumer products and its true for dogs. However, people are still surprised, even put off, when they show up at a trial and don't see performing in a typical manner. They are not suppose to be performing in a typical manner.

What most people observe is that trial dog that is too extreme for their application. Of course, this is very true. What they are apparently unaware of is that the dog has been developed from a very early age to perform as a trial dog. Take the same dog and develop to be a hunting dog and you have a different animal. As a matter of fact, even the very same dogs tend to dial it back quite a bit when not competing.

There is a caveat for the average guy buying a trial bred dog. Some guys who compete prefer dogs with certain attributes that are not a good fit for hunters. This is not necessarily the format as suggested earlier. Some competitors simply prefer a dog with attributes that are not well suited for hunters, IMO. In my observation, these are not the dogs that perform with great consistently but have their day at times. Most hunters are not likely to know the innate tendencies of these dogs. They just know they have a big reputation. There have been plenty of very well known dogs that we avoided in terms of breeding. I guess what I am saying is that you need to know more than the dog won a CH or two. 

The bottom line is that competition provides a degree of selectivity and selectivity is the core principle in breeding superior or even above average dogs. As is very evident here, our love for our dogs tends to be pretty blinding and that is a real problem in breeding. What I am saying is that a high degree of selectivity is not commonly practiced. How many breeders do you know that evaluate 10 females to find one to breed which in very crude terms would be the top 10%? At least competition tends to drive the utilization of males that are the top percentile of males. 

Sorry fo the long post. This is not a topic that lends it self to a one paragraph description.

SRB


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

Scott Berg said:


> You have obviously never had an opportunity to have an actual conversation with the man. Mac is one of the most open minded and intelligent individuals I have met in the "dog world". He is still working hard at learning more about bird dogs in spite of the fact he already has a great deal of experience. I have not witnessed a thing that would lead me to your conclusion. It's really too bad when these things degrade to the point where someone makes a post with absolutely no substantive value and is comprised soley of a public insult of someone you don't know.
> 
> SRB


so what u are saying is that u aren't passing judgement on me based on my posts?


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

and if using planted birds is shadow boxing then why do grouse trial pros own pigeons??????????


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> I didn't realize really how great it is till Jones came into our lives. Titles prove a lot imo about a dog, even if it's get will be meat dogs.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Just spoke to a non-trialer friend last night. He and 4 of his close hunting buddies own first or second generation trial dogs out of coverdog stock, with many close-up champions (pointers and setters) and killed over 130 grouse between them so far this year.


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS (Jan 13, 2006)

Steelheadfred said:


> I didn't realize really how great it is till Jones came into our lives. Titles prove a lot imo about a dog, even if it's get will be meat dogs.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 Putting the dogs thru the riggers of training tells me more about a dog then anything else. Lots of dogs are talented but not that biddable, can't handle pressure etc. The dogs I think are the best may not look much better then others while performing but I can assure you they are because their head is screwed on right. Force Fetch tells me alot about a dog. Collar condition does as well. Honestly I feel I can take any dog out of one of our breedings and make a good hunter out of it but only 20-30% could I make a MH or HRCH. The trainer in me has made us better breeders because I see things most never will.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> Just spoke to a non-trialer friend last night. He and 4 of his close hunting buddies own first or second generation trial dogs out of coverdog stock, with many close-up champions (pointers and setters) and killed over 130 grouse between them so far this year.


In 1999 I did that shooting over a 3-1/2 year-old setter female with no field trial breeding within three generations. 

That same season a friend/hunting partner killed significantly more than I did. His dogs had a bit of field trial breeding four generations back on the dam's side via CH. Patfinder.

My intention is not to belittle the value/contribution of field trials but there are folks breeding awful effective hunting dogs without much influence of FT champions close up in their pedigrees.

My current grouse dog has some FT CH on the sires side via a dog named CH. First Rate.

Just some additional perspective.


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## Jon Couch (Jan 10, 2011)

No one will debate the fact that you can have one He!! of a dog with out any Field Titles in their pedigree. What it does do is give you some insight into the ability of the parents. This knowledge gives a prospective buyer the ability to make an educated decision on which litter he/she would like to have a pup from. In my honest opinion this gives you a better chance of getting a dog that will emulate the traits that you desire.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> Just spoke to a non-trialer friend last night. He and 4 of his close hunting buddies own first or second generation trial dogs out of coverdog stock, with many close-up champions (pointers and setters) and killed over 130 grouse between them so far this year.


I know 2 guys who killed way more than that with german dogs to boot.


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

BIGSP said:


> I know 2 guys who killed way more than that with german dogs to boot.


130 grouse between 5 dudes is not that many. I'm not sure who Brent is referring to, but I know who one is. The other I'm not sure.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Firemedic said:


> 130 grouse between 5 dudes is not that many. I'm not sure who Brent is referring to, but I know who one is. The other I'm not sure.


Ryan, that was my point as I think you know. These dudes who will remain nameless have some nicely bred german meat dogs.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Firemedic said:


> 130 grouse between 5 dudes is not that many.


It is when you consider this.



> with many close-up champions *(pointers and setters)*


:evil:


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

Jon Couch said:


> No one will debate the fact that you can have one He!! of a dog with out any Field Titles in their pedigree. What it does do is give you some insight into the ability of the parents. This knowledge gives a prospective buyer the ability to make an educated decision on which litter he/she would like to have a pup from. In my honest opinion this gives you a better chance of getting a dog that will emulate the traits that you desire.


Heck, to muddy the water even more I've seen titled dogs in the past year that there's no way I'd want a dog out of them. One was a slow plodding dog that didn't seem to really like it's work. The other (wasn't titled just yet) was such a fire breather that I couldn't imagine having this dog to train or God forbid in the duck blind. Titles and such are bench marks, at least for me, but I don't think they should be the only consideration.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

RecurveRx said:


> It is when you consider this.
> 
> 
> 
> :evil:


Shouldn't you be fluffing your fuzzy green hat?

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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

FieldWalker said:


> Shouldn't you be fluffing your fuzzy green hat?


 
Speaking of fluffers... You ever get that sonic STD taken care of?


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Firemedic said:


> 130 grouse between 5 dudes is not that many. I'm not sure who Brent is referring to, but I know who one is. The other I'm not sure.[/QUOTE
> 
> His goal was two and almost reached it but has a very busy work schedule
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Putting the dogs thru the riggers of training tells me more about a dog then anything else. Lots of dogs are talented but not that biddable, can't handle pressure etc. The dogs I think are the best may not look much better then others while performing but I can assure you they are because their head is screwed on right. Force Fetch tells me alot about a dog. Collar condition does as well. Honestly I feel I can take any dog out of one of our breedings and make a good hunter out of it but only 20-30% could I make a MH or HRCH. The trainer in me has made us better breeders because I see things most never will.


Well said Dale, if they can take the pressure and intense training, they can take the rigors of a hard long hunting career.

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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> Firemedic said:
> 
> 
> > 130 grouse between 5 dudes is not that many. I'm not sure who Brent is referring to, but I know who one is. The other I'm not sure.[/QUOTE
> ...


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