# Looking for an English Setter Puppy



## moose33 (Nov 17, 2010)

I am looking for a female English Setter puppy. If anyone knows of a breeder or kennel with one available, please give me their name and number or email. I am looking for a hunting dog, to hunt woodcock and grouse with, which I have been hunting for about 15 years now. I have hunted over many different types of dogs, shorthairs, english setters, and gordan setters, and prefer english setters. Thanks for your help.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

These should be pretty nice: http://members4.boardhost.com/coverdogforsale/msg/1307182649.html

I asked for one of these but my wife vetoed. 
http://members4.boardhost.com/coverdogforsale/msg/1307584216.html


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## Pointerguy (May 22, 2006)

moose33 said:


> I am looking for a female English Setter puppy. If anyone knows of a breeder or kennel with one available, please give me their name and number or email. Thanks.


Contact Nick Miller, look at his web site http://www.milrunfarm.com/ for contact info. He has a really nice litter on the ground right now and they should be around 8 weeks or so? I have a pup from the litter before this one and he is doing great. Be sure to tell Nick Corey sent you.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

There is a line of setter for everyone, take your time, find someone to hunt with, see if you like the style of their dog, the range, then find out where they got the dog from.

See if you can attend some hunt tests, field trials, fun trials, many time entries are dominated by English Setters.

I bet if you gave your style of hunting, game bird you prefer, range you prefer your dog, are you looking for a hunting dog? Field trial dog? Post as much info as you can along with your desires and non desires folks could help you narrow down places to look.


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## flyfish (Dec 4, 2001)

check your pms# I gave you has one female left.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Contact Nick Miller at Milrun Farms. He's been breeding setters for a long time and will get you a good one. I have a pup from him right now and he's as nice a dog as I have ever had and I've had a few.
That long gone litter from the link posted is very nice as well; I just like keeping my cash, what little I have, local right now.


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## English Setter Gal (Sep 19, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> There is a line of setter for everyone, take your time, find someone to hunt with, see if you like the style of their dog, the range, then find out where they got the dog from.
> 
> See if you can attend some hunt tests, field trials, fun trials, many time entries are dominated by English Setters.
> 
> I bet if you gave your style of hunting, game bird you prefer, range you prefer your dog, are you looking for a hunting dog? Field trial dog? Post as much info as you can along with your desires and non desires folks could help you narrow down places to look.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

QUOTE=Steelheadfred;3695831]There is a line of setter for everyone, take your time, find someone to hunt with, see if you like the style of their dog, the range, then find out where they got the dog from.

See if you can attend some hunt tests, field trials, fun trials, many time entries are dominated by English Setters.

I bet if you gave your style of hunting, game bird you prefer, range you prefer your dog, are you looking for a hunting dog? Field trial dog? Post as much info as you can along with your desires and non desires folks could help you narrow down places to look.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Fred, but I think Nick Miller will have what your looking for. I believe he has 4 females left out of his last litter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Setter (Mar 20, 2001)

I had my female bred 2 weeks ago and if everything goes as planned there should be an awesome litter on the ground around August 1. My female is a great hunter and has qualified for the RGS Gun Dog of the year in both 2010 and 2011. The stud is a really nice blue belton Pinecoble setter that is also a great hunter of grouse and woodcock. If you would like more info you can email me at [email protected]
Mark


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## R. Ford (Nov 23, 2010)

A friend of mine, Aidas Raudonis of Dogwood Setters has a couple of litters on the ground. I think he might even have some Houston's Blackjack pups available that are about 8 weeks now. He is located in Northern Indiana. Google anything to do with setters and his website will come up for contact info.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Go see the parents of the pup if you can. I have seen things look good on paper and only to see the parents and think I would never take a pup from them.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Setter said:


> I had my female bred 2 weeks ago and if everything goes as planned there should be an awesome litter on the ground around August 1. My female is a great hunter and has qualified for the RGS Gun Dog of the year in both 2010 and 2011. The stud is a really nice blue belton Pinecoble setter that is also a great hunter of grouse and woodcock. If you would like more info you can email me at [email protected]
> Mark


Mark is that breeding all Llewellin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## crossroads (May 18, 2011)

I have a female that was bred couple weeks ago. Sire is son of CH Havelock Blacksmith, Dam is double bred granddaughter to Ch Tekoa Mountain Sunrise. Sire is the best bird dogs ive ever hunted with, grouse, woodcock, Wild Quail and Wild Pheasants, and real good on snipe. Dam is great bird finder, hunted 2010 in SD, she has hunted Tx Iowa, Illinios. Last litter out of this female produced great wild bird dogs, 1 lives and hunts in Michagan, The other had grouse killed over him on pointed birds his first year. One hunts wild quail in Oklahoma on hunting string.
Can see dam under photo's on this web site. Name is Bandit.
Call for more info. 765-884-1926 Crossroads Kennel Fowler Indiana


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Setter's female is out of my dog Reed. I've seen her and she is a beautiful dog and so far Reed has thrown good grouse dogs with high heat tolerance. That's a litter I would think about. Jason Gooding had 2 litters from Reed this spring, Goodgoing.com, they should also be nice. They may all be gone but you could call. I think Fritz gave good advice. You may have this dog for 15 years, hopefully hunting for 12 at least. I would never and I mean never get a pup from parents that I hadn't been in the woods with. For me I would want to hunt the parents for my target species. Everybody loves their dog for good reason, but that doesn't translate into the hunting companion that you are looking for. If you buy paper or personal recommendations that's all you're assurred of getting. Pedigrees don't hunt neither do recommendations. Dogs do. If you buy performance that you evaluate then that is what you should get. mac


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Two more thoughts. Scott Grush referenced a litter by Long Gone Boston. I've seen him run and loved him. Rich Hollister,one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, has a litter right now. I don't know the sire or dam personally but I've seen a number of dogs he has bred and loved them. Two of my favorite setters in the state came from Rich. That litter would certainly be on my list. The rest of the recommendations may be even better, but these dogs I know. mac


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## aimus1 (Feb 28, 2011)

I agree with Mac and Fritz. Don't get into a hurry. Breeder should be willing to put the parents on the ground hunting your target species. Evaluate if that's the performance you're looking for. Big difference in the larger/closer working dogs vs. the smaller field trial stock built for speed, and maybe field trial stock a couple generations removed.
What's best for you, and to each their own. You may get a setter that hunts nothing like the ones you've hunted over in the past. Take your time. Especially if you wish to own only one dog as your hunting partner for the next 10-15 years.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

I'd be interested to hear from folks how realistic it is to expect a breeder to take potential puppy buyers out hunting over both parents. In a situation where there is a close relationship developed with the breeder and both parents are on site, I suppose that could be expected, but wondering how realistic it is under most circumstances??

If both parents are local I like to visit the parents to get an idea of termperament and watch the parents worked on planted birds to get an idea of their style and nose, but couldn't imagine calling up Pete Flanagan and asking him to take me out hunting over both parents. In many cases the stud and dam aren't even in the same geographical location. 

I can see the recommendations to hunt over the parents as the ideal situation for considering a puppy, but don't find it to be a very practical expectation in a lot of cases. And if you can find 1 or 2 breeders to comply, that doesn't really give you a good cross section of what is available out there. I think personal recommendations and paper play an important part in the search for a puppy in most cases.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

I think it is reasonable in most cases. In many cases sire will be in a different location but if it's important it can be worked out. I'm probably a sob about puppy selection but if it's worth doing it's worth doing right. At least that is what my folks said. In the last year I've watched a bunch of Long Gone dogs including Boston and Maddie and probably another 50 E Setters from DunRoven, Classic Setters, October Setters, Berg Brothers, Grouse Ridge and Ken Moss's Traveler to name some. I'd ask Pete Flannigan in a second and I'll bet he would do it. I think Rich has both dam and stud on site. People get real unhappy when things don't work out and I believe in doing the homework and reducing the chances of poor outcome. mac


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

kek25 said:


> I'd be interested to hear from folks how realistic it is to expect a breeder to take potential puppy buyers out hunting over both parents. In a situation where there is a close relationship developed with the breeder and both parents are on site, I suppose that could be expected, but wondering how realistic it is under most circumstances??
> 
> If both parents are local I like to visit the parents to get an idea of termperament and watch the parents worked on planted birds to get an idea of their style and nose, but couldn't imagine calling up Pete Flanagan and asking him to take me out hunting over both parents. In many cases the stud and dam aren't even in the same geographical location.
> 
> I can see the recommendations to hunt over the parents as the ideal situation for considering a puppy, but don't find it to be a very practical expectation in a lot of cases. And if you can find 1 or 2 breeders to comply, that doesn't really give you a good cross section of what is available out there. I think personal recommendations and paper play an important part in the search for a puppy in most cases.


 
Keith,

I think you make some really valid points, hence my suggestions to try and hunt with as many friends as possible, attend field trials and hunt tests. Hell you can hit an RGS Fun trial and in 8 hours watch 20 different setters runs from Ryman's to Field Trial stock to meat dogs. 

I was fortunate to hunt behind the dam of my Bella for wild birds, the Sire though was site unseen and I trusted folks with their opinions.

I think you can make good decisions on puppy buying based on paper, but not paper alone, you would need to see similiar bred dogs hunted, trialed, worked,ect....I wish I had not rushed my decision on my second dog, I would not trade her for anything, but again I made better decisions and was better prepared for my third dog which I went about researching like I did my first dog.

What makes the most sense to me though is to hunt with as many people as possible and start with "where they got their dogs."

I also agree that once you have owned a few dogs you can make even better decisions based on paper.

Some of this is nuture as much as nature IMO also.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

kek25 said:


> I'd be interested to hear from folks how realistic it is to expect a breeder to take potential puppy buyers out hunting over both parents. In a situation where there is a close relationship developed with the breeder and both parents are on site, I suppose that could be expected, but wondering how realistic it is under most circumstances??
> 
> If both parents are local I like to visit the parents to get an idea of termperament and watch the parents worked on planted birds to get an idea of their style and nose, but couldn't imagine calling up Pete Flanagan and asking him to take me out hunting over both parents. In many cases the stud and dam aren't even in the same geographical location.
> 
> I can see the recommendations to hunt over the parents as the ideal situation for considering a puppy, but don't find it to be a very practical expectation in a lot of cases. And if you can find 1 or 2 breeders to comply, that doesn't really give you a good cross section of what is available out there. I think personal recommendations and paper play an important part in the search for a puppy in most cases.


I couldn't agree more. Well written. In many cases, once the pups are weaned from mom the mother may not even be on site. My Gwen dog fit that catagory. She was all bird dog. That is the way it is. If I was selling puppies I guarantee I wouldn't be taking anybody hunting in order to sell a pup. If I was breeding most of the pups would be pre sold before the breeding even took place. But that's just me.........and most of the breeders I know and use.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

I'm playing devil's advocate, Mac. I'm talking about hunting over the parents.

Don't get me wrong, in a perfect world being able to hunt over a diverse number of both parents is an ideal situation, but seeing a lot of dogs run is not the same as hunting over them. 

Most puppies from successful breeders are sold before the litters are born, like Bobby writes about above.

I've bought 2 puppies from Pete Flanagan over the past 5 years. The litters were sold before the pups were born. None of the buyers hunted over both parents.

Logistically, how would hunting over the parents work in most cases. Do you ask the breeder to hunt over the parents the season after the potential breeding is first announced, assuming a hunting season occurs before the pups are born? Or in the case of a fall whelping with no advance notice do you ask to hunt over the dam before the pups are 8 weeks old and ready to go home?

If a sire's owner provided a stud for a stud fee would the sire's owner be willing to take potential puppy buyers out to hunt over his dog on the if come they might buy a puppy from the dam's owner? 

And then there's the unscrupulous who contact the breeders to take them out hunting under the pretext of being interested in a puppy, but in reality looking for grouse hunting covers.

What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, if one limits his choice to only those circumstances where he is allowed to hunt over both parents you end up taking a lot of very good prospects out of the picture. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but if the original poster uses this method and finds a number of breeders to take him out grouse and woodcock hunting over both parents I'd be interested to hear about it.

Fritz: I agree - get out and hunt with a bunch of friends with dogs is a very good way to go.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

kek25 said:


> I'm playing devil's advocate, Mac. I'm talking about hunting over the parents.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, in a perfect world being able to hunt over a diverse number of both parents is an ideal situation, but seeing a lot of dogs run is not the same as hunting over them.
> 
> ...


 
I quoted this so I wouldn't forget your points.

Of course you're right that most puppies are sold before they hit the ground. I would look for the dogs I thought I might like and hopefully run them before the breeding. I don't care about hunting with them but I'd want to see how they handle grouse. It certainly could be that some sob could just be trying to accumulate covers. If he is that hard up so be it. 

Bobby's points are well taken, but remember that most trialers are very willing to cull a non productive dog. Most individuals aren't. Combing through pups is the norm for a trialer not a hunter that is also buying his pet. If a trialer makes a mistake down the road it goes, if you do, it probably will stay with you. 

Did anyone ask Pete Flannigan to see the dogs work? 

Maybe I'm naive or maybe just lucky but I have found that E Setter people are great folks and very willing to accommodate. They love dogs, I love dogs, what could be more fun than watching them work. There are lots of E Setter people that spend most of their falls and springs walking in the woods watching the dogs run without a gun. They're called trialers. 

You're probably right the original poster probably won't find a lot of people that will take him out to watch the dogs, but I have. The last 6 grouse dogs that I have had I watched the parents work grouse before I got a pup. I realize that I'm different than most. My life is often about mistakes people make with dogs so I'm very careful to limit my mistakes. 

BTW, Bobby did you notice that I spelled naive correctly? 

mac


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Maybe it is because I have german dogs but I have yet to see any of the parents of any of my dogs I do make phone calls of ones that have hunted or seen the at a test ot trial but the thought of asking to hunt over the parents has never crossed my mind
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

Watching and hunting are two different things. Nice and smart are also two different things. I don't hunt my dogs with ANYBODY I don't know. I wouldn't consider it unless they have $3-$5k in their pockets...and that only gets me whole on my money, not my time.

That said, I probably go through more pups and dogs in a year than most of the posters on here combined. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Nothing guarantees performance quite like actual performance. Do your homework, trust your stomach and go with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

There is some really great advice in this thread. The problem I see with a lot of it is that a relative novice will not know what they are looking at in a lot of cases.

If you are looking for a hunting dog/companion, I would focus my research on the breeder, not the specific dog or litter. Talk to people who have had pups from them. Get them talking about their dogs, once you get them going most people will love to. Ask those people if they know anyone who has a pup from the same breeder. Call those people.

Much easier to get feedback and much easier to understand feedback on a breeder than a specific litter if you are not experienced. Once you find a good breeder, you can pretty much pick the pup you like the looks of. Seeing the parents hunt for 20 min each is no guarantee of anything with a pup.


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## Pointerguy (May 22, 2006)

Boy its a good thing he didn't want anyone's opinion on where to buy a setter..........


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Why is it always about setters? If the original poster would have asked for a pointer we would all say contact Bruce. But the setter world is way more diverse. You have the big setter you can ride like a pony. You have a Llewellyn that has to come from a very small breeding pool just to have it's name. Now throw in the trial setters. We all know our breed is the best so we all fight among ourselves and the good information just seems to get lost in the in fighting. I'm on my fifth setter now. Two from a well known Mi breeder. One from a back yard breeder. One was a rescue(from a back yard breeder) and I had her breed to another Mi. breeder and kept pick of the litter. All except one have been outstanding grouse and woodcock finders. The one that wasn't, wasn't the dog fault. I put way to much pressure on her when she was to young. So here is my bias opinion. A 1000.00 setter isn't going to hunt any better than a 300.00 setter. Looking at parents is no guarantee. But if you look at the papers and it was some field trial champions in the first three generations in both top and bottom it ups your odds. Who has the best setter pups? Nobody has bad one it's just what you due with them that makes the difference between a good or great setter. Good luck!!!!


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## Setter (Mar 20, 2001)

These are not Llewelin setter, but have a lot of Pinecoble bloodlines which go back to quite a few Old Hemlock dogs. Theyare close working grouse and woodcock hunters that are very athletic.
Mark


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Drifter Saver said:


> Watching and hunting are two different things. Nice and smart are also two different things. I don't hunt my dogs with ANYBODY I don't know. I wouldn't consider it unless they have $3-$5k in their pockets...and that only gets me whole on my money, not my time.
> 
> That said, I probably go through more pups and dogs in a year than most of the posters on here combined. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Nothing guarantees performance quite like actual performance. Do your homework, trust your stomach and go with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Drifter Saver, you must have some incredible covers if a quest would need $3-$5K in their pockets to go with you. Would they need to give you any of that $ or just have it with them? 

You said "I probably go through more pups and dogs in a year than most of the posters on here combined". If that is you're success rate wouldn't a logical conclusion be to use another selection technique? 
Confused. mac


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Flash01 said:


> There is some really great advice in this thread. The problem I see with a lot of it is that a relative novice will not know what they are looking at in a lot of cases.


Right in the 10 ring.

"Chose the breeder very, very carefully. Then chose the parents of your new puppy carefully. Then, close your eyes, grab up a puppy and go"

Words of Wisdom from Delmar Smith.

The problem is that what many newbies call "breeders' are, in fact, merely "puppy producers". And the neophytes dont know, and can't tell, the difference.

NB


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

Mike McDonald said:


> Drifter Saver, you must have some incredible covers if a quest would need $3-$5K in their pockets to go with you. Would they need to give you any of that $ or just have it with them?
> 
> You said "I probably go through more pups and dogs in a year than most of the posters on here combined". If that is you're success rate wouldn't a logical conclusion be to use another selection technique?
> Confused. mac


Missing the point. One, nobody I don't know with a gun will be anywhere near my dogs. Second, what most people consider good...some of us consider average. I am not personally looking for average in my kennel. If you are not willing to move a truly average animal, you will have a much lesser chance at finding great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> Drifter Saver, you must have some incredible covers if a quest would need $3-$5K in their pockets to go with you. Would they need to give you any of that $ or just have it with them?
> 
> You said "I probably go through more pups and dogs in a year than most of the posters on here combined". If that is you're success rate wouldn't a logical conclusion be to use another selection technique?
> Confused. mac


 
Mac,

Don't want to speak for Joe but I think he is saying he is concerned about a strangers gun handling and he has 3-5K into a dog.

Also I think Joe runs a kennel and does quite a bit of trialing and I know is a pretty hard core bird hunter, so my guess is he is searching for that next really special dog and you know how that program works.


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## Pointerguy (May 22, 2006)

Drifter Saver said:


> Missing the point. One, nobody I don't know with a gun will be anywhere near my dogs. Second, what most people consider good...some of us consider average. I am not personally looking for average in my kennel. If you are not willing to move a truly average animal, you will have a much lesser chance at finding great.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just like Joe said you can go through 10-20 dogs or more until you find one that can compete at a top level in NSTRA. When I was doing a lot of trialing about 6-8 years ago I went through a lot of dogs to find that special very talented dog that was very competitive in NSTRA. I think most dogs will make the average guy a great hunting dog but 1 out of a 100 will make a great trial dog. 
I just cant understand how one man can ask if anyone knows of a litter of setters on the ground and everyone has to voice their opinion on how he should proceed looking for a pup. He never asked for any advice on buying a setter pup just if anyone had any leads on pups????


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Sorry, I missed the point. I didn't know Joe so I didn't know that he had a kennel and was a trialer. I do think I've got a pretty good idea what a good piece of cover is. The FIRST time I hunted with Fritz and Junior we hunted a cover in which we moved 18+ grouse in less than 3 hours. Fritz killed 4 Jr and I 0 ):. mac


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

to answer the posters question: it's obvious by all the indirect answers to your question that you should stay away from setters.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> Sorry, I missed the point. I didn't know Joe so I didn't know that he had a kennel and was a trialer. I do think I've got a pretty good idea what a good piece of cover is. The FIRST time I hunted with Fritz and Junior we hunted a cover in which we moved 18+ grouse in less than 3 hours. Fritz killed 4 Jr and I 0 ):. mac


 
Don't hate - and maybe you could mention the breed of dog used?:lol:


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

As a gracious host we used the guest's dogs, flushing labs. I can't even imagine how many birds we could have had with my shags. All kidding aside you can teach an old dog new tricks and Fritz and Ric have taught this old dog how effective labs can be. BTW my brother is getting female #3 from Bella Jones. mac


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## R. Ford (Nov 23, 2010)

Moose,
While you did get more than enough leads to track down a good pup, you also got tips on how to pick a good pup. That's the way it works on forums. 
If you know a little about reading pedigrees, and a little about reading people, you are going to get a pup that will have all the natural talent that you will need. No offense here, but you will be the weaker link. I'm still the weaker link with my dogs. Development and training makes a bigger differance in how 'good' your bird dog becomes than the genetics of your first dog. It's not until you have a real vision of what you want that the selection process make a 'real' difference, and then, what one fella is looking for, another wouldn't take it if they were giving them away. The fellas that go through alot of dogs are looking for something specific, and their not wasting any time if they don't spot it quick. It's rare that the dog didn't have the abilities to become heck of a bird dog given the right opportunities.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

R. Ford said:


> Moose,
> While you did get more than enough leads to track down a good pup, you also got tips on how to pick a good pup. That's the way it works on forums.
> If you know a little about reading pedigrees, and a little about reading people, you are going to get a pup that will have all the natural talent that you will need. No offense here, but you will be the weaker link. I'm still the weaker link with my dogs. Development and training makes a bigger differance in how 'good' your bird dog becomes than the genetics of your first dog. It's not until you have a real vision of what you want that the selection process make a 'real' difference, and then, what one fella is looking for, another wouldn't take it if they were giving them away. The fellas that go through alot of dogs are looking for something specific, and their not wasting any time if they don't spot it quick. It's rare that the dog didn't have the abilities to become heck of a bird dog given the right opportunities.


Sorry Ralf, I don't buy that. I have seen some people breed some crap spazzy females that look good on paper to the best stud they can find. Just for the paper.

Ben


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## R. Ford (Nov 23, 2010)

Ben,
I know that everyone doesn't agree with what I posted, but that's how I see it. I have never seen a pup that gets developed and worked by an enthusiastic single dog owner not turn into a pretty good dog.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

kek25 said:


> I'd be interested to hear from folks how realistic it is to expect a breeder to take potential puppy buyers out hunting over both parents. In a situation where there is a close relationship developed with the breeder and both parents are on site, I suppose that could be expected, but wondering how realistic it is under most circumstances??
> 
> If both parents are local I like to visit the parents to get an idea of termperament and watch the parents worked on planted birds to get an idea of their style and nose, but couldn't imagine calling up Pete Flanagan and asking him to take me out hunting over both parents. In many cases the stud and dam aren't even in the same geographical location.
> 
> I can see the recommendations to hunt over the parents as the ideal situation for considering a puppy, but don't find it to be a very practical expectation in a lot of cases. And if you can find 1 or 2 breeders to comply, that doesn't really give you a good cross section of what is available out there. I think personal recommendations and paper play an important part in the search for a puppy in most cases.


Keith,

You have cut to the root of this discussion, as usual. Its warm, really humid and no wind here today. I cant train so I may as well see if I can contribute (just a little) to this conversation before I go work on my golf game.

The logistical challenges make hunting with several breeders very difficult. That would require the buyer to have considered this purchase well in advance and of course hunting season is about 3 months of the year. We have a lot of people visit in the spring and summer. The number of people willing to travel a considerable distance is a little surprising to me but their perspective is this they are brining a dog into their family and they will be hunting over the dog for 12-14 years. In the past year we have had visitors drive from Alabama, Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, Missouri, Nebraska, North and South Dakota, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, and even Oregon. We also have 25+ visitors/yr who have flown from Florida to Maine to Washington state and every in-between. Meeting all of these people is one of the things that makes putting this much effort into a hobby worthwhile.

Obviously, most of these people are seeing training, not a hunting situation. You dont get to actually see wild bird handling ability but dogs that are sticking birds hard the instant they catch scent at 10-20 yards away is a good indicator. All of the other attributes, especially those related to mental make-up can be examined very well in a training situation. I would also suggest that when someone visits a breeder they ask to take out any 3-5 month old pups they have out and put them on birds so you can get a sense of natural ability and tendencies. If they dont have young dogs of their own that are being evaluated for breeding, they dont have a breeding program, they produce puppies.

This leads me to another point. The stud dog likely wont be on-site if we are talking about a litter produced selectively with the exception of VERY established breeders. A stud dog should be a top 1% dog. If the breeder owns the stud I would ask how many males the breeder has been through to get that stud dog. The same question asked of the females pretty clearly answers the question as to the relative degree of selectivity behind the breeding. Pedigrees have value in that great dogs are highly unlikely to come out of nowhere but there is a huge difference between breeding the best of 10 females out of great litters and the weakest ½ of those same 10 females. I did a breeding seminar with hall of famer Roy Jines about 15 years ago and he put it this way. Give me a CH male and a CH female form the best pointer blood you can find and I could produce absolute crap in 3 generations. That was Roys way of explaining the need for selective breeding.

Here is my suggestion to anyone research breeders of ANY breed. Any breeder could obviously find a select few happy references. Ask them for a list of at least 50. Thats only about 3-4 years for even a very small breeder. The breeder will not or at least should not be supplying contact information for all of those people. What we do is send the list and allow the prospective owner to pick 3-4 so its a random sample. Then, we supply them an email address and send an advance message to the client asking for permission to forward their email address to the client. 

SRB


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

QUOTE=NATTY BUMPO;3697152]Right in the 10 ring.

"Chose the breeder very, very carefully. Then chose the parents of your new puppy carefully. Then, close your eyes, grab up a puppy and go"

Words of Wisdom from Delmar Smith.

The problem is that what many newbies call "breeders' are, in fact, merely "puppy producers". And the neophytes dont know, and can't tell, the difference.

NB[/QUOTE] My opinion is that puppies are a crap shoot. Not all great dogs bred together produce great dogs. In reality one or two dogs in a litter make great dogs the rest if your lucky will make average dogs. As for hunting the parents most breeders don't train there brood dogs. Good luck in your search.
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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

junebug said:


> QUOTE=NATTY BUMPO;3697152]Right in the 10 ring.
> 
> "Chose the breeder very, very carefully. Then chose the parents of your new puppy carefully. Then, close your eyes, grab up a puppy and go"
> 
> ...


 My opinion is that puppies are a crap shoot. Not all great dogs bred together produce great dogs. In reality one or two dogs in a litter make great dogs the rest if your lucky will make average dogs. As for hunting the parents most breeders don't train there brood dogs. Good luck in your search.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Junebug,

Its hard to argue with your basic premise here that only one or two dogs out of a litter are going to be great for two reasons. That is the premise of selective breeding . To identify superior individuals to breed. Very few breeders engage is selective breeding for two simple reasons. One it cost a whole lot more to breed selectively and it requires a whole lot more effort. 

I dont agree with you on two counts. One, the premise that the rest are doomed to be average at best. IMO and in my experience, a higher relative degree of selectivity and/or a more experienced breeder will produce to a higher standard and more consistent results. 

Point two is that breeders who dont train brood matrons are breeding relatively indiscriminately. How are they selecting breeding stock if they are not thoroughly testing the dog? The best breeders not only train all of their brood matrons, but they require they readily accept a higher standard of training IE the dog be trained steady to wing and shot. We have 16 adult females and all but one have been broke steady to wing and shot.

SRB


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

While were on the topic of evaluation considering breeding pairs, clearly titles indicate a set of skills, but wheb nit breeding titled dogs, what is a reasonable period of evaluation? How many peak seasons for the dog? What about some of these huge kennels with hundreds of dogs how do they differ in evaluation from say a fireside, hi five, or dun roven style kennel as an example? I wonder how some folks find the time to evaluate a breeding female on wild birds over the course of three full seasons on wild birds?
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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

chewy said:


> to answer the posters question: it's obvious by all the indirect answers to your question that you should stay away from setters.


Chewy, bite me lol!!!!!!!!!
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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

I kind of agree with junebug one or two great dogs. 

scott u disagreed and it sounds like u r saying if they selective breed then all the pups will be great. 

was your last litter you bred all hall of famers? 

u make it sound simple and scientific. with all the infor u talk about increases the odds but at the end of the day It's still a crap shoot mother nature is hard to overcome. 

selective breeding to af standards is only all age champions should breed.

u don't need to train a brood matron if u breed her at a year and see what kind of pups she throws. if she throws awesome pups I'm breeding her every heat cycle.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

QUOTE=Scott Berg;3697802]My opinion is that puppies are a crap shoot. Not all great dogs bred together produce great dogs. In reality one or two dogs in a litter make great dogs the rest if your lucky will make average dogs. As for hunting the parents most breeders don't train there brood dogs. Good luck in your search.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Junebug,

Its hard to argue with your basic premise here that only one or two dogs out of a litter are going to be great for two reasons. That is the premise of selective breeding . To identify superior individuals to breed. Very few breeders engage is selective breeding for two simple reasons. One it cost a whole lot more to breed selectively and it requires a whole lot more effort. 

I dont agree with you on two counts. One, the premise that the rest are doomed to be average at best. IMO and in my experience, a higher relative degree of selectivity and/or a more experienced breeder will produce to a higher standard and more consistent results. 

Point two is that breeders who dont train brood matrons are breeding relatively indiscriminately. How are they selecting breeding stock if they are not thoroughly testing the dog? The best breeders not only train all of their brood matrons, but they require they readily accept a higher standard of training IE the dog be trained steady to wing and shot. We have 16 adult females and all but one have been broke steady to wing and shot.

SRB[/QUOTE]

I can prove my point by Snakefoot, Newhope, Guardrail, and so on what happened to there litter mates. Most breeders are breeding paper not traits. They assume because its out of CH. Who ever that they can or will transfer there traits. This is not always true some dogs can't produce better or evan equal to there self. I would not consider these dogs producers. I'm very big on the females I buy out of.
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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

QUOTE=R. Ford;3697287]Moose,
While you did get more than enough leads to track down a good pup, you also got tips on how to pick a good pup. That's the way it works on forums. 
If you know a little about reading pedigrees, and a little about reading people, you are going to get a pup that will have all the natural talent that you will need. No offense here, but you will be the weaker link. I'm still the weaker link with my dogs. Development and training makes a bigger differance in how 'good' your bird dog becomes than the genetics of your first dog. It's not until you have a real vision of what you want that the selection process make a 'real' difference, and then, what one fella is looking for, another wouldn't take it if they were giving them away. The fellas that go through alot of dogs are looking for something specific, and their not wasting any time if they don't spot it quick. It's rare that the dog didn't have the abilities to become heck of a bird dog given the right opportunities.[/QUOTE]
Life is to short to put up with a bad dog. Just my opion.
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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Merimac said:


> Sorry Ralf, I don't buy that. I have seen some people breed some crap spazzy females that look good on paper to the best stud they can find. Just for the paper.
> 
> Ben


I agree, they expect an awful lot out of the male. Good stud dogs are a dime a dozen. Good brood b*tches well that's a different story.
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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

I can prove my point by Snakefoot, Newhope, Guardrail, and so on what happened to there litter mates. Most breeders are breeding paper not traits. They assume because its out of CH. Who ever that they can or will transfer there traits. This is not always true some dogs can't produce better or evan equal to there self. I would not consider these dogs producers. I'm very big on the females I buy out of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

We are in complete agreement on the female side of the equation. And, now that you put it in the context of trials dogs I see where you are coming from. Getting more than one dog out of any given litter that can win on the major circuit is REALLY difficult. The dogs that can win on that level are one in many out of even the best breeding. I absolutely agree with you now that I understand your perspective.

I was looking at from a hunting dog perspective. With the proper selection, it is possible to get a litter where the all or at least the majority possess all of the necessary traits to be very good bird dogs. By this I mean dogs with brains and biddability that take training and have great natural bird handling ability, stamina, athleticism, etc. BTW, in my experience, the litters that most consistently produce those traits are not far removed from the type of great dogs you mentioned.

We did have littermate brothers place in major circuit championships this year. Thunderbird Punch Buggy was R/U at the Pacific Coast AA and also won the National Amatuer Chukar CH. His brother, Barshoe Topgun ace was R/U at the Colorado Open SD CH. Punch actually got his first title in the woods and then pro that runs him switched to walking trials and he had about 10 placements in walking CHs and then the pro (Travis Gellhaus) switched to AA.

Great means something different to everyone and that's to be expected. I have a female I consider to be a great dog that just did not run enough to win big trials. Frankie has all the attributes accept realy big range. She placed consistently when I ran her as a young dog but she was not going to run enough for CHs. Her brother was R/U at the Ohio/Penn SD CH this year with George, Mike, and Luke all in attendance. To me they are both great dogs even though the one will never be a Champion. 

SRB


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

Scott that makes more sense. misunderstanding. I agree all the pups should be consistent with each other and they should be great hunting dogs. one or two hope to be great trial dogs.


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

I truly believe if you start with a good bred litter from proven parents the pup is destined to be a solid bird dog. However the owner/trainer controls most of the future. If it was possible to give the exact same pup to two different people you will have two very different dogs.


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## R. Ford (Nov 23, 2010)

Whenever the topic is getting a new pup, it seems everyone resorts to advice on how to pick the next Hall of Fame dog, as a pup. While I think there are differences in litters available, I think those differences are all but wasted on most owners. Of course, we are not talking about the differences between SRBs most promising litter of the year, and Slick Willy's breeding of two dysplastic crossbred mutts. The suggestions of breeders given to the original poster were all decent enough fellas for a guy's first bird dog of his own. 
In fact, I bet many breeders would consider it a bit of a waste of their efforts, to have one of their best bred pups go to a novice. That's not even considering the topic of how good a match it is to put the type of dog most consider 'top' breeding, with a novice at all. 
If a fella asked if anyone knew where he could get a good used car, is it necessarily usefull for the rest of us to dispute the merits of a McLaren over a Bugatti.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike McDonald said:


> Sorry, I missed the point. I didn't know Joe so I didn't know that he had a kennel and was a trialer. I do think I've got a pretty good idea what a good piece of cover is. The FIRST time I hunted with Fritz and Junior we hunted a cover in which we moved 18+ grouse in less than 3 hours. Fritz killed 4 Jr and I 0 ):. mac


Just a normal day of grouse killing.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

OTE=R. Ford;3697895]Whenever the topic is getting a new pup, it seems everyone resorts to advice on how to pick the next Hall of Fame dog, as a pup. While I think there are differences in litters available, I think those differences are all but wasted on most owners. Of course, we are not talking about the differences between SRBs most promising litter of the year, and Slick Willy's breeding of two dysplastic crossbred mutts. The suggestions of breeders given to the original poster were all decent enough fellas for a guy's first bird dog of his own. 
In fact, I bet many breeders would consider it a bit of a waste of their efforts, to have one of their best bred pups go to a novice. That's not even considering the topic of how good a match it is to put the type of dog most consider 'top' breeding, with a novice at all. 
If a fella asked if anyone knew where he could get a good used car, is it necessarily usefull for the rest of us to dispute the merits of a McLaren over a Bugatti.[/QUOTE]
If picking the next hall of famer was that easy we would all have one. And a lot of top breeders won't sell to the public, ever try to bye a dog from Inez Smith ?
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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Ericgmci said:


> I truly believe if you start with a good bred litter from proven parents the pup is destined to be a solid bird dog. However the owner/trainer controls most of the future. If it was possible to give the exact same pup to two different people you will have two very different dogs.


I agree, you do increase your odds on getting good square solid dogs. But great pedagree to great pedagree still doesn't guarantee pups will be good. I've had some well breed pups, and some of them I wish I would have taught them to read their pedagree instead of training them. Great dog to great dog is the still the best odds for best puppies.
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## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

Ericgmci said:


> I truly believe if you start with a good bred litter from proven parents the pup is destined to be a solid bird dog. However the owner/trainer controls most of the future. If it was possible to give the exact same pup to two different people you will have two very different dogs.


I believe that if you start with a well bred litter from proven setters, the pup is destined to be a setter. No amount of training in the world can change that, no matter how much you want it to.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

QUOTE=Flash01;3698117]I believe that if you start with a well bred litter from proven setters, the pup is destined to be a setter. No amount of training in the world can change that, no matter how much you want it to. [/QUOTE. 
Flash don't be mad because you have to cut the tail off of those German dogs so they can have a little style. And I mean very little. Lol!!!!!!!!
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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

junebug it's pedigree lol


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

chewy said:


> junebug it's pedigree lol


He was channelllying Worm Dunker
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