# 25 Souper cartridge



## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

Now some of you may not know about this one [many will]. Its basically a 308 Win necked to 25 cal. I for the life of me cant figure out why the manufacturers havent "legitimized" this one. The 250 Savage is an excellent cartridge, and the 257 Roberts is ok, but that 25 Souper just seems like a natural for hunters and shooters.
Surely the varmint/deer cartridge applications would be appealing. I know the 25 WSSM [and the others] didnt take off, but this one is so easy. Much the same as making 25-06 from 30-06 the 25 S could be made from 308s [the same as 243s!].
It would also be nice to be able to seat the bullets out to use the case capacity which you cant really do with the 257 and 250 due to O.A.L. Thoughts?


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

I have been intrigued by the Souper too. PO Ackley wrote quite a bit about it. Mauser actions are still pretty cheap........ 

Could be a possibility for next in line behind the 257AI and 22-250 I have inthe works now........

But now that I think about it, the 260 is pretty similar (.264 vs .257) and as great a round as it is, it doesn't seem to be taking off commercially as everyone thought.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

The couple of Savage and Rem 700s I have might be able to toss on a new 25 Souper barrel and have a decent rifle. Seems like it would be simple to load for.


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## beartooth (Feb 14, 2007)

Huntsman27 said:


> Now some of you may not know about this one [many will]. Its basically a 308 Win necked to 25 cal. I for the life of me cant figure out why the manufacturers havent "legitimized" this one. The 250 Savage is an excellent cartridge, and the 257 Roberts is ok, but that 25 Souper just seems like a natural for hunters and shooters.
> Surely the varmint/deer cartridge applications would be appealing. I know the 25 WSSM [and the others] didnt take off, but this one is so easy. Much the same as making 25-06 from 30-06 the 25 S could be made from 308s [the same as 243s!].
> It would also be nice to be able to seat the bullets out to use the case capacity which you cant really do with the 257 and 250 due to O.A.L. Thoughts?


The 257 has a long neck and even my 120 gr bullets will not steal case space and I can seat it out far because of the free bore in a WBY. Help me out or did I miss what you were saying. Here is my recent hand load and this long bullet is not robbing the case. If anything a 117 or 120 would rob the 250 case of some space the same as you can not load heavey long bullets in the 308 case without robbing space. Maybe I am wrong or what did I miss that you were trying to say?


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

and the 250 SAVAGE, not the 257 WBY.

Rusty- also, the 260 [6.5s] is clinging to life by a thread. The 6.5s have a small but dedicated following. The 6.5 Swede is a great round and Ive had many 96s that would shoot an inch or so at 100 yards with iron sights. The 264 Win mag offers nothing over the 7mm Rem mag [except more expensive ammo].....dont find much brass in those calibers. Oh and cant forget the 6.5 Rem mag.


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## BR549 (Feb 5, 2006)

I thought I was going nuts for a minute (OK, I might already be there) because I thought I knew what the .257 was until I saw that picture.  I have a .250 Savage and love it. I prefer the 25 cal to the .243 because of the heavier bullet selection for deer, and quite frankly, the 250 is a tack driver. What's the actual performance in ballistics and inherent accuracy of the Souper, as compared to the 25-06?


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## beartooth (Feb 14, 2007)

The 25 Souper is similar to the Improved .250/3000 but came at a much later date and did not gain very much popularity in any circle that would alow it to really surive. It is made by necking the .308 Winchester case to .25 with no other change. It came after the the popular cartridges such as the .257 Imporved and of course the .257 WBY. It was not much more than just another wildcat with little to recommend it over the existing .25 calibre cartridges that were similar in design and capacity. With a 60gr max velocity is 4000fps (257WBY 75gr bullet 4000fps), for the 87gr the max is around 3400fps, 100gr 3160fps, the 117gr is around 3025fps at max and the 120gr is 2750-2800 fps.


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

You can't go wrong with a weatherby.:coolgleam :coolgleam


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## beartooth (Feb 14, 2007)

Enigma said:


> You can't go wrong with a weatherby.:coolgleam :coolgleam


I would agree but I wanted folks to see the 25 Souper and someone might just want what it offers. All though there are some real nice 25 cartridges to choose from.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Hunt, I like the idea. I like all the cartridges based on the .308 cartridge. Plan to add the .338 federal to the stable sometime soon. Always on the look out for something in .358 as well. I like the .243 but would easily go with a .25 in that same case first for deer etc.

I think the .260 is the perfect first rifle, but a .25-08 may be perfect! 

I'm a short rifle/short action fan, so even though the .25-06 exists, I'd take the short version first everytime. 


Hey Big Green, are you listening? Please chamber the Model 7 CDL in .338 Federal.....and go ahead and throw in the .358 as well.....I'll buy both tomorrow!


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

I've been looking for a .250 savage for a long time but if a .25-08 cartridge was available I would certainly take a close look at it. I have rifles in .243, .260 & 7mm-08 so it's obvious I'm a fan of the .308 derivatives. Wonder why there is no .27 caliber short action cartridge. Must be because of the popularity of the .270 winchester.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

legitimized. It would put the 250 Savage and 257 Roberts away. The simple use of the 308 case to make it would be so easy.
Sure I love the 25-06 but a short action would be just the ticket. What B/T and others fail to see is the value of a cartridge that provides decent varmint and deer ballistics. With the price of 257 WBY brass, and loads, the 25-06 and 25 Souper are naturals. I have yet to meet anyone that wouls shoot all day with a 257 WBY at PDs and the like. It isnt economical, and isnt easy on the shoulder using 30-06 [and more loads of powder].
Does it provide much over my beloved 243 Winchester? probably not. However, it would be an easy sell to sprotsmen and sportswomen for a 2 way cartridge with a bit heavier deer bullets [117-120 over the 100gr for the 243]. For vamints the 75 V-max is a great load in the 25-06 and surely would be in the 25 Souper.
Well, maybe as soon as I shoot the barrel out of the new 243 HB Varmint, maybe a 25 Souper will be in the works!.


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## beartooth (Feb 14, 2007)

Huntsman27 said:


> legitimized. It would put the 250 Savage and 257 Roberts away. The simple use of the 308 case to make it would be so easy.
> Sure I love the 25-06 but a short action would be just the ticket. What B/T and others fail to see is the value of a cartridge that provides decent varmint and deer ballistics. With the price of 257 WBY brass, and loads, the 25-06 and 25 Souper are naturals. I have yet to meet anyone that wouls shoot all day with a 257 WBY at PDs and the like. It isnt economical, and isnt easy on the shoulder using 30-06 [and more loads of powder].
> Does it provide much over my beloved 243 Winchester? probably not. However, it would be an easy sell to sprotsmen and sportswomen for a 2 way cartridge with a bit heavier deer bullets [117-120 over the 100gr for the 243]. For vamints the 75 V-max is a great load in the 25-06 and surely would be in the 25 Souper.
> Well, maybe as soon as I shoot the barrel out of the new 243 HB Varmint, maybe a 25 Souper will be in the works!.


If you do decide to build one I want to be the first to know you are going to do it and I want to here your field results when you shoot it.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

I just looked at the Bullberry website and they have custom stainless .25-08 Encore barrels for $450. If you could get dies for it I just might think about getting one for my Encore.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

[RCBS] has dies, and surely any of the die mfg could make them. Do they have barrels for the Savage? I know the Savage barrels are easy to swap out.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

It does not look like they have them off the rack but Bullberry will do custom rifle barrels for $525 blued/$550 Stainless for pretty much any rifle.

Rcbs wants $90 for the case forming die and $140 for a 2-die reloading set for the .25-08.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

appreciate the info.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Huntsman27 said:


> legitimized. It would put the 250 Savage and 257 Roberts away. The simple use of the 308 case to make it would be so easy.
> Sure I love the 25-06 but a short action would be just the ticket.


Hunts...I don't know either. Marketing, maybe? I think all the cartridges based on the 308 Win are some great ones. Most have been popular, but some like the 25 Souper and one of my favorites, the 358 Win, have never been. Both, like all the cartridges based on the 308 Win, are great cartridges. The 25 Souper would probably be a tough competitor to the 243 Win (and maybe even better) as a dual purpose varmint/deer cartridge. The 358 at the other end is a great all around medium range cartridge for deer and larger. Who knows why some great cartridges don't make it while others that can't hold a candle to these do.


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## beartooth (Feb 14, 2007)

I sure hope you try this because I would really like to hear what the results would be. You can have a barrel made for the Savage. One cartridge I think that is a real sweet one is the 358. It would really be a winner in a short scout rifle.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

P.O. Ackley panned it back in 1962 as 

"...quite similar to the Improved .250/3000 but came at a much later date and did not gain popularity to any degree... Coming after the introduction of such fine and popular cartridges as the Improved .257 [Roberts] and of course the very fine standard .257 [Roberts], it was not much more than "just another wildcat" with little to recommend it over existing .25 caliber cartridges similar in design and capacity."

There is load data in Ackley's _Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Vol 1. _He didn't appear to be able to get any more out of it than he did out of a .257 Roberts and he got less out of it than he got out of the .257 Roberts Improved. Your milage may vary.

I can see where it might make some sense in one of today's short action bolt rifles but, if that were the itch, I'd think you could scratch it a lot more cheaply with a .260 Rem without giving up anything in the ballistics department.

I don't see where it offers anything but higher costs over a .257 Roberts in a single shot rifle.

-na


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

but I dont see any higher costs, really if I re-barrel, buy the form and FL dies I have everything I need. I go through brass like mad each year selling it and wheeling and dealing. The point is, 308 brass is so readily available VS Roberts brass that the Roberts in the end would cost me more for brass.
In my shooting Id use it quite a bit for varmints and deer. There is a far greater selection of 25 cal bullets than 6.5s especially for varmints.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Huntsman27 said:


> but I dont see any higher costs, really if I re-barrel, buy the form and FL dies


For the price of a set of custom dies you could buy a set of standard off-the-shelf 257 Roberts dies and several hundred pieces of new 257 Roberts headstamped brass.

If you want to do it the hard way you can reform your own 257 Roberts brass from cheap and plentiful 30-06/270Win brass. 25 Souper doesn't give you any signficant cost advantage here.

-na


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

Roberts. I know the Roberts can be made from 7 Mauser, but from 30-06 or other would involve cutting it and too much piddling around! Tha manual of cartridge conversions gives all the dimensions and such.
Ok you guys talked me out of it. Ill stay with my 25-06 and be happy....damned party crashers!!!:lol:


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## beartooth (Feb 14, 2007)

Huntsman27 said:


> Roberts. I know the Roberts can be made from 7 Mauser, but from 30-06 or other would involve cutting it and too much piddling around! Tha manual of cartridge conversions gives all the dimensions and such.
> Ok you guys talked me out of it. Ill stay with my 25-06 and be happy....damned party crashers!!!:lol:


Huntsman27, I really think you would be served better by staying with the 25-05. It is a proven round, flat shooting, and so easy to load for. I know the desire to have something new and different to play with, but you have so much more in your 25-06. Rebarrel it with a Lilja barrel 24" and have a real deal that will not let you done at the reloading bench or the shooting bench and we all know how it does in the field.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

shoot out the barrels on my varmint guns. Going to take a few more trips out west because 30-50 chucks a year here isnt going to do it! Im not really a big fan of HB guns [weight] although I have the 22-250 M-70 SS HB Varmint and Rem 700 HB varmint 243 and Rem Sendero HB 25-06, I like the sporters because I dont limit my shooting to just from benches. I like to wander around when we PD shoot while some like to stay stationary the whole time. Benches are nice, but with a bipod on all of my guns I can snipe away at them when I find another good area with other 22-250s,204,243 and 25-06s.


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

Huntsman27 said:


> Ok you guys talked me out of it. Ill stay with my 25-06 and be happy....damned party crashers!!!:lol:


You gave up much to easy.:lol: What is interesting about a 25-06? Everyone has one, heck you can buy shells at Walmart. Now a 25 Souper, that is something to talk about around the campfire. When you clean your pockets out at the end of the day, people will ask what that round is.:coolgleam 

You have enough standard rounds, I'd get the Souper iron back in the fire. Think about how cool it would be to nail a woodchuck or a deer here in MI with it. You've got your standard varmit guns for out west and high vol shooting.

You need the wildcat.:evilsmile


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

Just what I needed was a push in the other direction! Well, If I was to order the dies/parts then Id HAVE to complete the project.
The problem is Rusty, the guys and family I hunt with dont have any idea what wildcats are and cant see past the 30-06, or magnums. 
If I took a cartridge from my pocket they would say....oh a 308 huh? Ballistically challenged folks for sure!


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

I have to admit, I like having cartridges that not everyone has. One of my favorites is my 348 Winchester. To me the 25 Souper is an interesting project and I don't think it would be too difficult. The good thing about it is you will never have to worry about brass, it can be made from several popular calibers. If I had to guess, comparing it to other cartridges based on the 308 and '06 for comparison I'd say offhand you're looking at 100-200 fps less in same weight bullets for the Souper vs the 25-06. I like the 25-06 and had one in a Win M70 Supergrade but sold it. The Souper in something like a Rem M7 or comparables would be a neat little rifle IMO.


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