# rockford dam



## discdrag (Jul 21, 2001)

this is a hypothetical question, if it was possible, and safe, do you think the rockford dam should be taken down or a fish ladder added? i believe that it would make the rogue a much better fishery, like the pm, and there would actually be a chance for natural reproduction, just wondering what you guys(and ladies) think


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Let the dam stay........keep the salmon out of those fine trout waters upstream.


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## islaysteelies (Apr 30, 2001)

Add a fish ladder...There is not enough productive water below the dam to accommodate all the people that venture to the rogue...It would make it a better fishery...


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## ben vander jagt (Oct 20, 2001)

Did someone say something to the effect of "keep the dam there, I dont want to see the salmon ruining the fine trout waters upstream" Theres pretty much no salmon run in the rogue except for those stupid hatchery fish that made it past 6th street. I think that they should get rid of it or at least make a fish ladder so that its possible for the fish to get upstream instead of being slaughtered there in the spring. Not only would it disperse the fish resulting in greater natural reproduction {if theyre is such a thing in the Rogue] but it would also disperse aaaallllllllllll the fishermen their in the spring. But I wouldnt count on anything being changed to that dam very soon, I mean, if the dam was taken down think of all those people who would have to go explore to find a good spot.......


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## Nighttimer (Jul 24, 2001)

I say leave the dam there. From what I've seen, there isn't much quality spawing area upstream of the dam. The headwaters are slow and silty. Even if the dam wasn't there, all the snaggers and yahoos would slaughter the steelhead off the gravel anyway. Not to say everyone that fishes the dam is in that catergory, but those who fish the rogue know what I mean. The gravel gets pounded hard enough as it is.


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## discdrag (Jul 21, 2001)

islaysteelies said exactly what i was thinking, the crowds would thin out, and there would be some wild trout in the rogue, besides, up by 12 mile there is good gravel, as good as the lower rogue, anyways


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## islaysteelies (Apr 30, 2001)

There's good gravel in the Lower Rogue??????

Nighttimer,

Are you saying that people don't "slaughter" the steelies off the gravel down stream of the dam? You will have this situation wherever you have gravel...By opening up the dam with a fish ladder, it will give the fish more room to operate and hide...Much better for reproduction...


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Yupper! Someone actually had the temerity to suggest that the salmon, any salmon be kept out of upstream/upland trout waters. In the case of the Rogue, that includes Stegman Creek, Duke Creek, and Cedar Creek. The Grand River seems large enough to supply fishing room.


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## islaysteelies (Apr 30, 2001)

Am I missing something here...Why do you want to keep salmon out of trout waters???


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Keeping salmon out of upland trout waters:

1. Browns and brookies (in the Rogue's feeder creeks) both spawn in the fall as do the salmon. The larger salmon chase the smaller trout off the prime spawning areas. I've seen it happen.

2. The young salmon live in the stream and compete with native trout, especially small trout, for food and living space. The smaller the stream the more this becomes a factor. There is only so much biomass available for forage. Yes, I know the Rogue is a very fertile stream in regards to the availability of food.

3. Salmon tend to draw those who choose to fish using illegal methods, snagging, spearing, clubbing, grabbing, and lining. They take trout accidently and of course keep them.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Hey Whit, that takes me to simple solution. Why not a selective ladder. They could shut it down in August and re-open it in November for steelhead.


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## ben vander jagt (Oct 20, 2001)

First off, as I stated earlier, the Rogue has one of the worst salmon runs in a major river that I can think of, so they really wouldnt be chasing the trout of their gravel. And second, I have NEVER, ever, in my years of fishing the rogue spring, winter, summer, and fall, ever caught a salmon smolt, nor have I seen one caught, so Im pretty sure that would not be a problem. Taking the dam out (which will never happen) would probably let tons of silt and sediment, which in turn, would kill all the "trout" downstream. But putting a ladder would be a good thing, in my opinion but that will never happen either. Anyways just be thankful that we have fish, unlike outwest where there used to be millions.................................


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## cireofmi (Feb 13, 2001)

Am I wondering if they are still thinking about taking out the Lyons Dam. Does anyone know what effect taking out the Lyons Dam be on the Grand River and near by tributaries?


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## islaysteelies (Apr 30, 2001)

So how do other "Blue Ribbon" trout streams, like the PM, survive with Salmon in their system??? The trout fishing in the Rogue right now is mediocre at best...Introducing salmon and steelhead into the upper waters may be just what that system needs...I have a hard time believing that salmon and steelhead in the upper waters would ruin the trout fishing...At times I have caught more and bigger fish in the lower water than the upper water...Seems if I remember right, there are already salmon and steelhead in the lower water...How do you explain that????


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

The PM may be the exception to what I have said about the salmon and steelhead, especially the salmon, disrupting the native, upland trout species in a river. I haven't fished it in years, but from what I hear the brown fishing is still excellent.

However the Betsie up near Thompsonville has had its once fine brown trout fishing reduced to almost nothing. The demise began a few years after Homestead Dam was removed, allowing steelheads and salmon to move upstream. It has been said that the washing out of the T'ville Dam was the culprit. The collapse of the upland trout fishing in the Betsie came several years before that upstream dam went out one spring day.

The Platte River used to be known nationally as a fine brown trout stream. That is no longer true. It was a fly flingers dream stream holding brown trout of all sizes.

The Little Manistee still has some good brown trout fishing, but the DNR weir below Six Mile Bridge is closed in order to collect salmon eggs before the major portion of the spawning run can get upstream.

Other streams that still offer excellent native, upland trout fishing devoid of the interference of a salmon run include the: Boardman R., upper Manistee R., Sturgeon R., Black R., Pigeon R., Au Sable River, Clam R., Maple R.. This is not to mention the feeder streams flowing into these larger flowages. There are others. The Little Muskegon R., from what I've been told is a fine trout stream.

Allowing salmon and steelheads to reach the upstream and even headwaters of our trout watersheds causes me to shudder. Like I said, there is only so much bio-mass that offers nutrients to the fish population. The aggressive nature of young salmon and steelheads would take the majority of the food available. The larger size of the salmon gives them a distinct edge in choosing (if I can use that word) spawning sites. The smaller native trout don't stand a chance. 

Downstream waters of most rivers/creeks tend to be more fertile than those found higher up in the watershed. The forage base that this creates makes for larger fish. In the fall, many of those large browns that are caught in downstream waters are actually lake residents on their annual spawning runs upstream. They are not native residents.

Allowing salmon to reach farther than they do now would be a tragic mistake, at least for those of us who love the solitude and peace of a small trout stream.


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## Nighttimer (Jul 24, 2001)

I have to agree with Whit. Why take the chance of ruining the trout fishing upstream of the dam so a few more salmon and steelhead can reproduce? Natural reproduction is not strong in the Rogue and I don't think it would increase much, if at all, if the fish could pass the dam. The water temps get quite high in the summer months. The upper section would also get trashed the way the lower section does in the fall and spring. Those who fish there know how much line, hooks, flies, yarn, beer cans, foot wrappers, etc... is left on the banks and in the river each year.


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## islaysteelies (Apr 30, 2001)

I am not talking about removing the dam for one...I am talking about adding a fish ladder that would allow salmon or stellhead or both to move upstream to spawn...Are we talking about the same so called "trout" water above the dam??? This would be the same water where in 2000 the DNR dumped over 30,000 trout into it because the natural reproduction is so good??? So tell me again what we would be hurting by letting salmon and steelhead into the upper water??? Seems as though the trout aren't doing too well as it is...


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## Nighttimer (Jul 24, 2001)

islay,

If there is not good water for reproduction, then what good would it do to allow salmon and steelhead up there? The Rogue is not a good river for natural reproduction. At least the upper section of the Rogue is a lot cleaner because of less fishing pressure. Are you looking for more natural reproduction or more places to fish for salmon and steelhead? I agree with you about trout fishing being better below the dam. I have caught more and larger trout below the dam, but I don't think the salmon and steelhead would benefit by being able to pass the dam.


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## islaysteelies (Apr 30, 2001)

My whole argument is there is not enough quality water below the dam...If you introduce salmon and steelhead in the upper water there would be more productive water to fish...I also believe that trout are much more sensitive to reproducing...Salmon and steelhead are a little more tolerant...Who knows they may really take off if they were introduced into the upper water...

The thing that irritates me is the argument that the salmon and steelhead would ruin the pristine waters of the upper Rogue...If those waters are pristine then I'm the president of the United States...


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## Nighttimer (Jul 24, 2001)

Mr. President,

Most of the trout in the Rogue spawn is small feeder creeks where better spawning grounds are available. If the salmon and steelhead enter these creeks, it could be bad for the trout. I don't believe the waters above the dam are "pristine". A lot of it is actually slow and silty. I think most trout fisherman would want to protect it from fishing pressure and trash accumulation the lower section gets. Having fished both sections for trout many times, I have ran into more sportsmen and respectable people in the upper sections. If there are more places to salmon and steelhead fish, more fisherman will show up. Its not like the many people that already fish it will spread out and no one else will show up. Whether or not it will hurt the trout fishing, I can't say for sure. I wonder if the salmon and steelhead populations would really benefit from it.


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## islaysteelies (Apr 30, 2001)

I really don't care all that much...I am just in the mood to argue today being that I am going to be on vacation until Jan 7...I will most likely fish the Rogue several times while on vacation and be happy about the fact that I have a place to fish...The only things that could make my life better than it is are to produce a super breed of steelhead in michigan that grows to over 30lbs, and to eliminate all gun hunting for deer in Michigan...I don't see either of those things ever happening, so I'll just live and be happy with what I have...


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## ben vander jagt (Oct 20, 2001)

we all know the only reason you dont want salmon and steelhead in the upper sections is because you want the river to yourself which is perfectly fine but I fish the lower water and im lucky if i ever have a hole to myself let alone a stretch of river. Also we both know that if a ladder was put in at the dam that it would be much more beneficial to the fish and us fishermen. Not only would it result in more natural reproduction, but it would also disperse the fish and fishermen just as I said on my last post. Also, im pretty sure whoever said "ifa ladder was put in more people would fish the river" is wrong, I think that it would actually result in less fishing pressure because as stated before the fish would be more dispersed thus resulting in much less concentration of the fish in certain spots (below the dam). Also I think this would eliminate some of the "snaggers" and "yellow rod tods" who fish with "silver spyders" and "lead spoons" because they wouldnt be guarenteed loads of fish sitting on gravel because they have nowhere else to go. Last but not least, the only natural reproduction that goes on in the rogue doesnt go on in the rogue, it goes on in the little feeder streams that support their own wild fish. If the trout actually did reproduce in the upper rogue, there wouldnt be a need to stock the upper stretches with 13,000 plants anually.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

"we all know the only reason you don't want salmon and steelhead in the upper sections is because you want the river to yourself " BVJ

Ben,

"All" is a pretty broad word to use. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I will not be fishing the Rogue in any section. I no longer live in the area. All I am doing is sharing an opinion based on my experiences of almost 50 years of stream trout fishing and some knowledge of fish habitat and needs. You can have every hole, run, redd, bend, log jam, etc. all to yourself as far as I'm concerned. I have no interest in fishing the Rogue. Now if you were talking about Cedar, Duke, or Stegman creeks that might be a different story. It would be fun to revisit those streams.

By the way, are you any relation to Guy VanderJagt?


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## ben vander jagt (Oct 20, 2001)

Lets not forget about Shaw now. Thats a fun one to fish.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

BVJ,
I only fished Shaw Creek once, below old US31 north of Rockford. I had always heard that it was a good stream, but I concentrated on Rum, Cedar, Stegman, and Duke Creek as well as a small unnamed (I think) creek south of Rockford. It was a great little native brookie stream, holding some fish of up to 13 inches. Since then a housing development was put in upstream (Buena Vista I think its called) They dammed up the creek to create a lake. I'm not sure what these warmer water temperatures have done to the creek.

Guy Vanderjagt by the was was a long time member of the U.S. Congress from Luther, MI. He still has a cabin on the Pine River near Luther.


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## gomer (Dec 30, 2000)

whit1,

i think you are talking about bella vista. the creeks name is barkley creek and they dammed it up to make lake bella vista. the lake itself is an outstanding bass fishery, there are tons of fish in there but most are smaller. I will have to check out the creek sometime this spring to see if it is still a good stream. I recently bought a one weight and i am devoting next summer manly to the little creeks near my house. Oh by the way, my grandma lives right by rum creek and its still a pretty good stream, but not nearly as good as along time ago.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Gomer,
Barkley Creek...that's it. I fished both above the old US31 divided highway and below. I even fished below the old, old US31 which is west of old US31.......now that 's confusing...LOL! In the 50's and 60's I took a lot of trout out of all of those creeks flowing into the Rogue. I am speaking of wild trout, rather than the put n' take planters that they put in back then. Some of the planters did survive and turned wild after a year or so.


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## ben vander jagt (Oct 20, 2001)

Whit1,
I don't know if you have seen or visited Rum Creek in a while, but that is the most polluted stream I have ever seen. God knows what Wolverine dumps in there as well as the Rogue. By the way, what kind of trout were you catching in Rum?


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## gomer (Dec 30, 2000)

ben,

i have fished rum many times near where cortland goes over it which is upstream of the plant and i think that its not polluted at all.


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Last October 12-13, I attended the Small Dam Removal Conference at Harbor Springs. I represented the White River Watershed and there were representatives from several watersheds, universities, DNR, and other states present.

Without going into too much detail I would say that each river system and any dam in question needs to be reviewed on a case by case basis. Dam removals are an emotional subject for the residents of the area and decisions are seldom made with the welfare of the river system as the first priority. What has been demonstrated around the country is that after the community accepts the responsibility to remove a dam, the property values do not decrease, recreation tourism usually increases, and the community is very pleased with the long term benefits of a more natural river system.

We do have one consideration of the sea lamprey to consider on many of our river systems in Michigan. In those cases adaptations can usually be made to both control the spread of exotics and improve the river ecology.


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## gomer (Dec 30, 2000)

mostly browns and a few brookies, maybe the reason you are catchin trash is cuz you are fishin near wolvorine world wide. try upstream


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## tgafish (Jan 19, 2001)

Whit,
If you ever had an interest in reliving one of your childhood jaunts, Barkley runs behind my house. Most if not all is surrounded by private land now. The small 30 yard stretch behind my house would seem to hold streamers but I have never investigated further than enjoying the sight and sound of the flowing water and the large buck rubs which line it's banks.
Tom


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## Butch (Aug 29, 2001)

I just saw this thread or I would have chimed in sooner. I second Whit1! One of the things he didn't mention is that salmon and steelhead water soon has cattle paths along the banks, public and private. Trash, erosion, grumpy landowners. 

Did I mention I like stream trout better anyway  

Butch


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

I agree, the thought of cattle paths in the upper river is enough to keep the dam where it's at. I also had a conversation with a guy on the lower Rogue last weekend that went a little like this, "We're gonna rip all that brush and that tree outta this hole so guys can cast" I told him that the hole would widen out, the bank would erode, etc... he didn't seem to care. The point is, this could happen to the upper river as well, they've had problems with this happening on the PM and Betsie Rivers. Seems like an awfully nice stretch of Southern Michigan trout stream to have trampled to death.


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

By the way gomer, I got a question for ya but your mailbox is full


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## gomer (Dec 30, 2000)

sorry bout that. its cleaned out now.......


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## bigsid (Jan 13, 2003)

I voted for the ladder. I have to agree with Whit's concerns, but I also like the idea of a "selective" fish ladder as was mentioned before. I don't know enough about the ecology of our streams and rivers to actually have a good argument against letting big fish go upstream.

What I do know is that I hate that dam for what it is. I see no actual purpose that it serves except for creating a fish pond for those who are too lazy to find a quality fishing spot or can not fathom the idea of actually scouting water and using trial and error to find the aforementioned quality fishing spot. Sorry if that's redundant!! I'm sure a lot of people don't see things the way I do, but challenge is a big part of this sport. You won't find that in Rockford. I hate to slam that area because I did catch my biggest steelie there, but if it wasn't for the thought of "cattle trails" and trash along the river banks, I'd vote to blow that thing up!!

My .02...Sid


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

I think that it wouldn't hurt to get a bunch of Rogue steelhead fishermen together with trash bags and go through the "cattle paths" and clean up all the trash so we don't look so bad as a whole. Who's up for it? Hit the access sites, R. River Rd, Packer, etc... Might help the local landowners perception of us so they don't post the hell out of it like they did this year. Maybe it's just a pipe dream, but oh well.....


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## SteelieknightFSU (Feb 23, 2004)

I agree with Whit1 100% on this one. I have talked to many people who have said that Salmon and Steelhead take away from the trout fishery tremendously. I once talked to an old man that used to fish the PM alot before the Salmon runs and he swears that by adding the Salmon it absolutley ruined the trout fishing. By opening up the river to natural flow would be a mistake. But others are allowed to have their opininons!
SteelieknightFSU


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## Todd Frank (Nov 20, 2003)

If we have another fall like we did back in 1987, mother nature just might take care of the dam anyway, like it did childsdale...So I guess mother nature did exstend the rouge at one time...LOL
Refrence all the little feeder creeks upstream of rockford, every spring I end up writting tons of trespassing citations, I cringe to think of the compalints we would have to handle if the salmon could make there way up shaw creek and cedar creek duke creek ect...Interesting thread....


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