# long range rifle?



## love2fish93 (Jul 22, 2007)

hey guys,

I was looking to put together a rifle that I can practice with at long ranges, and potentially use it for some groundhog plinkin this summer. what would you guys suggest? I was looking at 22-250s, 17 hmr and fireball, 223, and possibly a 243. I know a 17hmr at 100 yds is a tight group round, same with the 223. what do you think?

Pat


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

.223 or .223ai would be a fine choice. I run a handful of .223ai. It's one of my favorite cals.

Run a fast twist and a heavy bullet (75g Amax) and it'll shine long range. We run these setups out to 1000yds without a problem.

Most of the new people at the range will ask what are we shooting, most are surprised what the little .223ai will do. 

Once thing nice out the .223 or .223ai's. They're CHEAP to shoot if you reload... Cheaper components and good barrel life.

If you're buying a factory rifle, you're limited on the fast twist stuff. I know Rem makes a 1/9" and I believe Savage makes a few different ones with 1/9" and 1/7".

Here's a 500yds, 5 shot group with 75g Amax's.









Here's a group @ 1000yds with the 75g Amaxs. About a 1 MOA high. 5 shots. I'm on the right.









The .22-250 is a fine LR round too, but once again, I'd run a fast twist to take advantage of the heavy bullets with the highest BC. I still would like to make a .22-250ai, one of these days. Barrel life wouldn't be the best. I'd prolly say 2500rds and the barrel will prolly go south.

.243 is another excellent choice. Have a .243ai in the makes as we speak. It'll be splitting 105g Amax out.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Wow! That's a question that will get some different answers!

You mentioned 100yds but that's probably not long range to most of the guys that will reply. My little 17HMR is a tack driving son of a gun. I love that little round. However.... I also have a 223 Savage 12FV. Personally, I bought the 223 because ammunition is cheaper. I'd probably buy the centerfire if you have a place to shoot it.


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

love2fish93 said:


> hey guys,
> 
> I was looking to put together a rifle that I can practice with at long ranges, and potentially use it for some groundhog plinkin this summer. what would you guys suggest? I was looking at 22-250s, 17 hmr and fireball, 223, and possibly a 243. I know a 17hmr at 100 yds is a tight group round, same with the 223. what do you think?
> 
> Pat


When I hear 'long range' I think 400 - 600 yards to start. For that, out of the calibers you listed, a .223 or a .243 with 1:9 or faster twist is the only real candidate. In .223 you need 69-75 gr bullets [1:7 twist is better] and in .243 you need 90 - 105 gr bullets [again 1:8 is better] for best performance at long ranges.

For blasting varmints out to 200-300 yards max a .17 or .223 will do.
I think a .223 in 1:9 is a good compromise, you can shoot 52-55 gr varmint bullets and 69 gr match target bullets.


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## frostbite (Dec 22, 2004)

223 is cheap if you shoot alot. You might consider throwing in the .204 for consideration as well


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

I run 1/8" on all my .223's and .223ai's. I haven't shot anything bigger then 75g Amax's and 75g Swifts. I do have some 80g VLD's, but I'm sure the 8"tw will be fine with them.

9" twist is marginal on the 75g Amax's. Some stable them and some don't. 

If you're going to build something, I'd go 8" twist. 

Same if you're going to build a .22-250. 8 twist would be the way to roll.


With a .243, 9 twist will be fine for 105g. If you intend to shoot 115g Dtacs, 1-7.5 or 8 twist will work.


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## UPhiker (Jul 13, 2008)

SuperSeal110 said:


> .
> 
> The .22-250 is a fine LR round too, but once again, I'd run a fast twist to take advantage of the heavy bullets with the highest BC. I still would like to make a .22-250ai, one of these days. Barrel life wouldn't be the best. I'd prolly say 2500rds and the barrel will prolly go south.


Here's a funny little story about the 22-250. About 15yrs ago there was a local shooter who decided to build a 22-250 for Highpower Rifle competition. He had recently retired from the USMCR where he was Asst. Commander of the Rifle Team- the man could shoot. Anyways, he was sighting in at WSC at the Wed. night 600yd practice. About every 3rd shot, he called for a target mark, and it would come up a "miss". He got angry because he didn't believe it. Then he noticed several of us snickering. Remember, this was the infancy of .223 HP shooting and bullet technology wasn't what it is nowadays. We were laughing as about every third shot, there was a grey puff of smoke about 30yds downrange. In between the increased velocity of the 22-250 over the 223 and the fast twist, some of his bullets were disintegrating.


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## passport (Jul 26, 2009)

+100000000000 on anything 223, be it standard or AI are IMO the best bang for the buck, load cheap, accurate as hell, small appetite for powder and brass is evewhere. 

I have 2 myself, a std 223 with a 9 twist PacNor that will shoot 69grn Sierra HPBT into tiny groups with 26 grns of Varget @ 3k, and a 223AI that runs 75grn Hornady A-max at about 3150 fps with stupid accuracy. 

Superseal110 has shot more 223 ammo that most guys will shoot in a life time and knows his stuff, his advice is sound. 

Here are mine.

223AI









Here is how it shoots









My light and handy 223









Its no slouch in the accuracy dpt either









I like fast twist barrels and heavy bullets, like superseal said it will make your gun a REAL long range shooter. Like 1k long.........


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## love2fish93 (Jul 22, 2007)

ENCORE said:


> Wow! That's a question that will get some different answers!
> 
> You mentioned 100yds but that's probably not long range to most of the guys that will reply. My little 17HMR is a tack driving son of a gun. I love that little round. However.... I also have a 223 Savage 12FV. Personally, I bought the 223 because ammunition is cheaper. I'd probably buy the centerfire if you have a place to shoot it.


 
100 yds is the longest distance Ive seen a 223 shot, sorry for the confusion. I would love a rifle that would hold a decent group out to a grand


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

love2fish93 said:


> 100 yds is the longest distance Ive seen a 223 shot, sorry for the confusion. I would love a rifle that would hold a decent group out to a grand


The guys posting above will tell ya how to get it done... These guys KNOW their centerfire stuff with the 223 and 22-250. I really like my Savage, 12FV-223, I just don't shoot it like I thought I would. 6x24 scope and shoots remarkably well with factory ammunition. I'll probably sell that rifle this summer. I've only shot around 50 rounds out of it and I guess I'm too hung up on the muzzleloader. They sure are sweet though !


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## love2fish93 (Jul 22, 2007)

this may sound like a dumb question, but whats the diference between a 223 and a 223AI?


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

love2fish93 said:


> this may sound like a dumb question, but whats the diference between a 223 and a 223AI?


 
223ai is a hotter faster custom round.

If your looking for best accuracy in .22cal a .222 is the best. If 243/6mm then a 6br is best. To my knowledge a custom 6BR still holds the 1000 yd title. A simple high quality/heavy barrel factory gun in .243 with hand loaded ammo will also do fine. Depends on what range and accuracy you want, and how much money you want to spend.

I have a factory Rem700 with a custom tight neck and a home made bench rest style stock that will shoot 1/8moa. Lots of possibilities. .223 or .22 cal guns are cheaper to shoot if that is a consideration.


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## passport (Jul 26, 2009)

love2fish93 said:


> this may sound like a dumb question, but whats the diference between a 223 and a 223AI?


 
A 223AI (Ackley Improved) is a standard 223 brass with the body taper 99% gone and with a 40 degree shoulder to allow for more powder capacity. 

You can AI pretty much any caliber but some result in more gain than others, the 223AI is one of the cailbers that really seem to make huge gains when being done. There pretty much a 22-250 with a smaller powder charge. Those of us that have them see the gains first hand, plus you can shoot regular factory 223 ammo through them, you need to so you can fire form the brass. Most have great accuracy in fire forming too, heck mine shot std 223 to FF so well I was afraid the full power AI loads would not shoot as well, I was wrong............

IMO there a must have wildcat, great from p dogs to whitetails.


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## love2fish93 (Jul 22, 2007)

do factory loads (223) carry enough consistancy to shoot out of the box? Reloading is just a bit much for me to do at the moment


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

I would guess factory .223 ammo should be good. You may want to experiment with reputable ammo manufactores compared to the cheap stuff on the market and decide what works best for you.

One of the biggest mistakes some folks make who relaod is that they try to load the hottest loads they can find, this sacrifices any accuracy available through good loads.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

Why not a .220 Swift?:evilsmile


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## passport (Jul 26, 2009)

love2fish93 said:


> do factory loads (223) carry enough consistancy to shoot out of the box? Reloading is just a bit much for me to do at the moment


 
Yep, it will be like anything else though, you will need to pretty much buy one box of everything and see what that gun likes. Feel free to give the left overs to me..........................................grin.

We should do a ammo swap where one guy buys a box takes 5 and swaps the other 5 or 15 for another brand, saves bunches of dough.


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

If one doesn't reload, then the .223ai would be pointless for the shooter. Standard .223 would be better in your situation.

Heck, I run the AR15 w/75g Amax's out to 1k with no problem. Get a .223 and the correct twist and it'll shine.

Here's some good info on .223 vs .223ai.

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html


John, thanks for the kind word. We'll have to stretch that .223ai this spring at the range.


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## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

As far as factory rounds go...I would take a .204 Ruger over a .223 any day of the week. Compare the ballistics of the .204 Ruger and the .223. I own a Savage Model 12 VLP in .204 Ruger and will put it against any .223 stock factory rifle out there. At 100 yrds I can easily cover up a 3 shot group with a dime. 


here is an article that you might be interested in:


*What about the .204 Ruger?
*
The arguments for having a .204 Ruger are many. This is not meant to put down in any way the .22-250, .220 Swift or .223 Rem. They are all fine calibers and each excels in their own element. However, the .204 Ruger also has its advantages.

For example, let&#8217;s take the little .17 calibers, which have gained much popularity recently. The first advantage is low recoil. The little .204 shares this characteristic. The recoil is tame enough for all shooters, from kids and ladies to men. Does this mean it is a ladies gun? Not at all! I own a little ruger 10/22 and it is a riot to shoot. But I miss the wow factor of my larger center-fire rifles. With the .204, I get the best of both worlds. Due to the low recoil, .204 owners are enjoying the ability of seeing the bullet do its work through the scope. You can&#8217;t do this with the bigger flat shooters, the .22-250 or the Swift. Truth be told, with my light gun, the Ruger MKII Ultralight, there is enough recoil that I can not keep the scope on target when I shoot the heavier 40 grain loads. However, with the heavier guns, you can. Also, with the lower recoil of the .204, the tendency to flinch or jerk is minimized. On those 300 plus yard shots, this becomes a huge factor. The reduced muzzle blast also help calm the nerves.

The .17 calibers have had a great following among furbearer hunters. Although the .204 will not be as fur-friendly as the .17 calibers, it will be much better than the larger .22 calibers.

Ballistics is where things start to get interesting. When comparing the .204 to the larger .22 calibers, the little Ruger will be flatter shooting than the .223 and on par with the .22-250 and Swift. Using Hodgdon&#8217;s published data, the following table illustrates this point. I have not used the published data for the over-the-counter loads because I feel the reloading data better represents what we see in real life. Note that this does not give any unfair advantage to the .204 since the published velocity for the .204 Ruger is 4,225 fps! Using this velocity would clearly give the Ruger the advantage but since most people are having difficulty attaining this velocity, we will use Hodgdon&#8217;s data.


Caliber

Bullet

Powder

Velocity

500 Yd Drop

22-250	40 gr. V-Max	39.5 gr. Varget	4135	27.5&#8221;
22-250	50 gr. V-Max	36 gr. Benchmark	3903	26.46&#8221;
.204 Ruger	32 gr. V-Max	30.7 gr. Benchmark	4047	27.53&#8221;
.204 Ruger	40 gr. V-Max	30 gr. BL-C(2)	3774	26.02&#8221;
*Calculations based on a zero of 250 yards and a scope height of 1.5&#8221;.

The Swift will shoot a 50 gr. bullet only marginally flatter than the 22-250. Hodgdon&#8217;s data shows Swift&#8217;s highest velocity of 3947 was attained from 43.5 gr. of H380. This calculates into a 25.81&#8221; drop at 500 yards. Using the Swift&#8217;s fastest velocity of 4213 fps, the 40 gr. bullet would drop 26.31&#8221; at 500 yards. Note that Hodgdon used a 26&#8221; barrel when testing the Swift while they used 24&#8221; barrels for the .204 and 22-250. All things considered, the Swift with it&#8217;s 2&#8221; longer barrel is the winner, but only by 1/3&#8221; at 500 yards. The little Ruger outdoes the .22-250 by .44&#8221; I illustrate this point only to show that the difference in trajectory between the three guns is negligible.

Once more visiting recoil as compared to the 22-250 and assuming an 8.5 pound rifle, the 22-250 will kick with 56% more energy than the .204! While on the subject of energy, how does the .204 fare in knock-down power? At the muzzle, the .22-250 claims 34% more energy than the .204. However, due to the higher ballistics coefficient of the smaller bullet, it gains on the larger caliber and is only down 12% at 500 yards. This could be interpreted as good and bad. On larger game than coyotes, the lower energy will reflect negatively on the .204. But on fur bearing animals, the lower energy at close range will result in less damage to fur while retaining respectable energy on long shots.

I have heard many arguments against the .204 in the wind-drift department. Although I am still testing this in the field, paper science tells us a different story. My ballistics program computes 27.34&#8221; of drift at 500 yards in a 10 mph wind for the .22-250 compared to 24.21&#8221; for the Ruger. These calculations are based on the best loads for each caliber from the data listed above.

The bottom line is this. The .204 Ruger gives all the favorable characteristics of the .22-250 in a low recoil, quieter, fun-to-shoot package. The .204 Ruger will not have the raw energy of either the .22-250 or the Swift. So if a person is not concerned with fur damage and needs the extra energy of the larger calibers, the .22-250 or Swift would be the better choice.


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## Talntedmrgreen (May 28, 2007)

I 2nd the .204, from an amatuer/hunter perspective. 

I too have the savage 12 VLP and LOVE the way it shoots. Off the shelf gun with off the shelf ammo with the ability to hit pop cans @ 350 yards every time. 

12 twist likes the 40gr Hornady's real well. Next year I hope to begin the hobby of reloading...my budget is gone for now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UPhiker (Jul 13, 2008)

At long range the .223 will beat the .204 due to the much heavier bullet weights available. As long as you know the distance, bullet drop is a constant. Wind drift isn't, and the heavier, higher BC bullets are much better at not being blown around.


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## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

UPhiker said:


> At long range the .223 will beat the .204 due to the much heavier bullet weights available. As long as you know the distance, bullet drop is a constant. Wind drift isn't, and the heavier, higher BC bullets are much better at not being blown around.


I am not convinced. But then again, not sure what you mean by "long range". To be honest, I highly doubt anyone is going to buy a factory setup, mount a scope on it, and start knocking off P-dogs at 800-1000yrds... Shooting accurately at 800-1000yrds takes lots of time and money!!! For the recreational shooter and occasional P-dog hunter, I will put a factory .204 against a factory .223 any day of the week. I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure that the .204 excels in the wind drift department.


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## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

Check this out... 


http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212926&highlight=.204+ruger


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## Talntedmrgreen (May 28, 2007)

While 1000 yrds sounds like fun, I think were getting a bit off topic. The question was geared toward '100 yrds' and groundhogs, not custom, halfmile target shooting

For critters anywhere from 5-400 yrds, I'll stick by the .204, especially if you want to share the fun. The ballistics are great for that type of shooting, and the greatly reduced recoil promotes additional shots and kid/spouse friendly shooting. My $0.02.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

Talntedmrgreen said:


> While 1000 yrds sounds like fun, I think were getting a bit off topic. The question was geared toward '100 yrds' and groundhogs, not custom, halfmile target shooting
> 
> For critters anywhere from 5-400 yrds, I'll stick by the .204, especially if you want to share the fun. The ballistics are great for that type of shooting, and the greatly reduced recoil promotes additional shots and kid/spouse friendly shooting. My $0.02.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The Original poster didnt really say anything about distances he was planning on shooting. Rather he mentioned "long Range" which could mean anything from 100 yrds to 500 yrds to 1000 yrds. When I mentioned the .204 Ruger I was recommending it as a good flat shooting round that should not be overlooked for Varmint sized game up to at least 500 yrds. 

Some of the other posters on this thread suggested custom benchrest rigs shooting custom AI rounds. As an out of the box Rifle shooting factory store bought ammo, I too will stick with my .204 Ruger out to 500 yards if Varmint sized game is what I am after.. 

Jeff


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

MIoutdoorsjunkie said:


> I am not convinced. But then again, not sure what you mean by "long range". To be honest, I highly doubt anyone is going to buy a factory setup, mount a scope on it, and start knocking off P-dogs at 800-1000yrds... Shooting accurately at 800-1000yrds takes lots of time and money!!! For the recreational shooter and occasional P-dog hunter, I will put a factory .204 against a factory .223 any day of the week. I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure that the .204 excels in the wind drift department.




Though the .204 is flatter down range then the .223ai, the .223ai stomps the .204 in wind drift. 

204-32g Vmax @ 4150 @ 75*.

100yds- Zero wind- 1"
200yds 1.2" wind- 4.1"
300yds -6" wind- 9.8"
400yds -15.8" wind- 18.7"
500yds-32.6" wind 31.7"

.223ai-75g Amax @ 3150 @ 75*.

100yds zero /wind .06"
200yds -2.5" wind 2.6"
300yds -9.8" wind 6.1"
400yds -22.5" wind 11.2"
500yds -41.8" wind 18.2"

Clearly the .204 stops the .223ai out to 500yds in drop, but the light bullet drifts a lot more in the wind, results in more misses, IMO... 

.204 vs a .223 w/50g Vmax, I'd take the .204, hands down.

****I'm not trying to stir the pot.****


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## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

SuperSeal110 said:


> Though the .204 is flatter down range then the .223ai, the .223ai stomps the .204 in wind drift.
> 
> 204-32g Vmax @ 4150 @ 75*.
> 
> ...



Gotcha.. Not trying to say that either the .223 or .223AI are bad rounds (The AI is actually pretty impressive) but I think the original poster (love2fish93) is looking for a factory rifle in a factory chambering. He said that he isnt interested in handloading so I figured that he shouldnt be looking at all the most popular varmint rounds without taking a good, hard look at a rifle chambered in .204 ruger. 

I see that you have compared the AI to the .204. To me, that is not apples to apples because the big box manufactures do not produce rifles/ammo (that I know of) in .223ai. Lets see the same ballistic comparison charts for the .204 Ruger,.223 Remington, .220 Swift, .22-250 etc.. If money were no object I think we could build up a several different benchrest guns that would stomp all of the above...Lets keep a level playing field here.. ha ha ha... 


by the way... nice guns in the photos that you posted!! Where are you shooting? 
Jeff


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

MIoutdoorsjunkie said:


> Gotcha.. Not trying to say that either the .223 or .223AI are bad rounds (The AI is actually pretty impressive) but I think the original poster (love2fish93) is looking for a factory rifle in a factory chambering. He said that he isnt interested in handloading so I figured that he shouldnt be looking at all the most popular varmint rounds without taking a good, hard look at a rifle chambered in .204 ruger.
> 
> I see that you have compared the AI to the .204. To me, that is not apples to apples because the big box manufactures do not produce rifles/ammo (that I know of) in .223ai. Lets see the same ballistic comparison charts for the .204 Ruger,.223 Remington, .220 Swift, .22-250 etc.. If money were no object I think we could build up a several different benchrest guns that would stomp all of the above...Lets keep a level playing field here.. ha ha ha...
> 
> ...


Jeff, you're correct about apples to apples. Here's load from my AR15 w/a 8" twist barrel.

.223 75g Amax @2850 @ 75*.

100yds Zero wind .07"
200yds -3.5" wind 3"
300yds -12.8 wind 7"
400yds -28.9 wind 12.9"
500yds -53.1" wind 21"

.204 is still flatter, but still blows around more in the wind then the stander .223 with a HIGH BC bullet. If we compared the .204 to a .223 with 50g Vmax, the .204 stomps it.


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## SuperSeal110 (Dec 6, 2003)

love2fish93 said:


> hey guys,
> 
> I was looking to put together a rifle that I can practice with at long ranges, and potentially use it for some groundhog plinkin this summer. what would you guys suggest? I was looking at 22-250s, 17 hmr and fireball, 223, and possibly a 243. I know a 17hmr at 100 yds is a tight group round, same with the 223. what do you think?
> 
> Pat


Pat, 

How far are you planning on shooting?


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## love2fish93 (Jul 22, 2007)

love2fish93 said:


> 100 yds is the longest distance Ive seen a 223 shot, sorry for the confusion. I would love a rifle that would hold a decent group out to a grand


I would have to agree a thousand yards is alot, but I wouldnt mind being able to shoot to 600 comfortably and maybe stretch to 650. I have shot 500 and 550 with a 300 win mag but I would have to believe that it is a different game with the lighter bulett.


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## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

love2fish93 said:


> I would have to agree a thousand yards is alot, but I wouldnt mind being able to shoot to 600 comfortably and maybe stretch to 650. I have shot 500 and 550 with a 300 win mag but I would have to believe that it is a different game with the lighter bulett.


Pat,
If you plan on shooting out past 500yrds you not only need a flat shooting caliber/rifle, but you will also need a heck of a good scope. Dont skimp on the glass. Many guys spend more $$$$ on glass than they do the rifle. You could have the best shooting rifle in the world but, without good glass you will have a very hard time being accurate let alone consistently accurate at long distances. 
Continue your research and look at all calibers mentioned in this thread. check out all the Varmint forums out there. Remember an accurate Varminter style rifle is usually alot heavier (Barrel and stock 10-12lbs) than a sporter style rifle. Ie some of the savages, remingtons, kimbers etc chambered in the Varmint rounds are not "walking around" guns and are meant to be shot from a bench. Ultimately, your choice will depend on what you want to shoot, distances you want to shoot, money you want to spend etc.. good luck!! 

Jeff


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## love2fish93 (Jul 22, 2007)

Thanks for the help guys, I definately learned alot from this thread over the last few days.

Pat


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