# Changing spaniel's hunting style for diff. game?



## sgc

I'm still trying to get a feel for how close working, to me, my FBEC should be hunting. It seems like this might change for different game or different habitat. For example; if I take him rabbit hunting, it would seem that he shouldn't be any farther than 10 yards, or I won't see the jump. On the other hand, what about for Grouse; 20 yards or 30 yards ??? 

And/OR, do you just let the dog do the 20 to 30 yard quarters for all game and hope that whatever he flushes comes your way?

Also, if there are different distances you want the dog to hunt, how do you accomplish this? (with the whistle?)

thks,


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Wabbits?? Wabbits?? Really???? j/k, j/k,j/k,j/k, j/k:lol:

In the grouse woods, 20-35 yds max. Out West on pheasant/ sharpies, further out but always under control. Thorough ground coverage and hitting all the likely objectives while using the wind to good advantage in both places is the key. 

Being able to HUP yr dogs by voice, whistle or hand signal is a worthwhile goal to work towards. Watching a top spaniel pro handle their dogs in a trial is pure pleasure.


Hopefully, Hal, Steve, Doug, Mike or Jam will chime in on this topic.

NB


----------



## Steelheadfred

I'll argue that keeping a flushing dog in what is written about in all the books as traditional "range" will hamper your dog from learning where game lives, I will also argue against a tight traditional quartering pattern. You dog first has to learn where grouse live, then how to handle them, then how the two of you handle them for the gun. This assumes the dog is a reliable retriever when you do connect. 

Everything changes, early season, mid season, late season, as should range your dog works and the covers you place them in and how you hunt it. 

Friday I was hunting a flushing dog as i walked the edge of a cover, she worked 40-70 yards from me, I was completely comfortable with this range, more than likely with her working off to my side as I walked the edge, the birds would fly my direction, not always, but that's grouse hunting.


----------



## gundogguy

sgc said:


> *I'm still trying to get a feel for how close working, to me, my FBEC should be hunting. It seems like this might change for different game or different habitat. For example; if I take him rabbit hunting, it would seem that he shouldn't be any farther than 10 yards, or I won't see the jump. On the other hand, what about for Grouse; 20 yards or 30 yards ??? *
> 
> *And/OR, do you just let the dog do the 20 to 30 yard quarters for all game and hope that whatever he flushes comes your way?*
> 
> *Also, if there are different distances you want the dog to hunt, how do you accomplish this? (with the whistle?) The whistle is a tool in and of itself it will not get the job done (HS)*
> 
> thks,


SGC, 
Excellent thread for the spaniel folks
1st of all he is your dog hunt him any darn way that is comfortable for you. Range is an acquired taste on the part of the handler and it had better have a direct corelation between the way you started your dog and proceeded into transition to advanced training for the way the pup ends up hunting. 
Concerning quartering, it is just a way to *teach* the dog how and when respond to your whistle and voice,if you have to use voice. 
As pup is confronted with different cover bases and terrain and you learn how to read him.
The dog's response to your turn whistle is slow you will have some issues,so as always "we just never know how good a dog might have been if only his basic training was more thorough." Revisiting Chuck Goodall's <Chuck trained all breeds of dogs befor there was any electronics> intro to birds and whistle might be of some help. Goodall was a true canine behaviorist. He literally stared every spaniel trainer in America that is running dogs today.
Whistle paired with bird is the foundation for spaniels expected to "hunt to the guns". Without the whistle being paired with bird,in other words when you give a pip dog turns to check out some other area and allow you to catch up or cover some new ground, you may have some control issues.

Normally if OC out of contol (which would be producing birds out of gun range)is occurring it gets back to early introduction to retrieving and birds and the dogs misunderstanding of the whistle, without this understanding you always feel like your at the rodeo.
Reread this next sentence::: Dogs do not have the ability to change their behavior under any circumstances, only man can change his behavior so that it helps the dog to change..i.e. out of control, not willing to finish a retrieve and so on.. Only man has the ability to help a dog fix the issues that are occuring in the field or the yard or home.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Hal, curious if you've ever read Mike Goulds book "Labrador shooting dog"and if so your thoughts? Also curious if you belive you can bring flushing dogs along more in line with grouse/cover dog pointing breeds methods with an eye towards develpping, finding, producing wild birds for the gun and if you feel it has any relevence? Great topic, thanks for participating.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## sgc

Thanks, Hal. I wasn't really concerned with quartering (to quarter or not to quarter could probably start a whole new topic). I'm just trying to get a feel for distances guys hunt their spaniels at. 30 yards was about the max I allowed on Grouse & I was wondering if that's the norm for most guys using spaniels on Grouse.(?) But, also, 30 yards seems too much for rabbits (depending on the terrain). I'm thinking I have to reel him in closer for rabbits. Is it normal to try & shorten his hunting circumference/distance to more like 10 yards depending on what I'm hunting? Will this confuse the dog? Do I just keep commanding him to hunt closer when conditions warrant? thanks, Stan


----------



## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> ]*Hal, curious if you've ever read Mike Goulds book "Labrador shooting dog"and if so your thoughts?*[/B]No I can't say that I have. Though have read Spencer and Tarrant and know them both. And tend to agree that "quartering"in and of itself is not condusive to to proper upland retriever hunting style. My thoughts are and i have trained more retrievers for the upland any other class of dog, physically it is almost punishment to force them to change direction so frequently. One thing that happens is the mere fact that dog is changing direction is a loss in "momentum".
> Good nonslip Retriever trainers will tell you on the really advance dog's that a sit command at say 100-200-300yyds is the worst correction you can give a dog as far dog's sake is concern. The advance dog knows he has screw up and now he forced to pay a price and have to stop running,,,the one thing all good dogs love to do is run. The sit command at distance takes that fun stuff of running away from the dog.
> "Quartering" is a training exercise, no different than yard work sit,stay, come,or force fetch or whoa breaking, or table work. In the exersize you are looking for reads that will tell you is the dog is hunting for you or self, How quickly the dog responses to whistle or voice. It is an exercise that the handler develops "tools" that they will use in the field.
> Depending on the dogs athletic abilities quartering may look like a very "natural" behavior, donot be fooled it still must be learned by the dog, the ability to respond to the turn whistle that is..that is the reason you are exercising the dog in this fashion. To teach response to the whistle..
> _*I'm sure this will be continued*_
> 
> 
> 
> SHF asks..
> *Also curious if you belive you can bring flushing dogs along more in line with grouse/cover dog pointing breeds methods with an eye towards develpping, finding, producing wild birds for the gun and if you feel it has any relevence? Great topic, thanks for participating.*
> 
> I'm not sure what is being ask here but i will take a stab at it>>
> 
> Pointing dogs work and develop differently than flushing retrievers( Labs and Spaniels). There is a huge difference in the way the nose operates between the two classes of dogs. Dogs are pulled through life by their noses.
> None better than the other ...just different. Pointing dogs have a core talent for '"riding" the wind and utilizing air scent and body scent. It is a marvelous genetic trait in the dogs that have this ability. You cannot train it ..though you can encourage it's develpoment. P.dogs nose is more like a rifle it is very focused on a narrow band range ..so to speak.
> I have witnessed points at just absolutly amazing distances.
> The flushing Ret. on the hand uses his nose differently in the questing process, because their noses are different. Yes, using body scent (air scent) but also tracking and foot scent. It is here that the quality of the flush is realized,did the speed up or slow down when it first smell the game, did it blow the bird out or just nudge it from it's seat, The motivation for the quest in the flushing dog comes from the desire to retrieve, the motivation in the pointing comes from the desire to SMELL the bird.
> 
> So the desire is different running styles are going to be different as well.
> _I am not sure if that is what was asked_
> 
> After training German Shepards, Airedales,even a Bedlington Terrier as bird hunters you kinda throw the style book out the window and shoot every thing that flies.
> Remember for the meat hunter and sport'smen This is all mind over matter... if you don't mind it does not matter.
> I do not go hunting to take prisoners!!!!


----------



## gundogguy

*But, also, 30 yards seems too much for rabbits (depending on the terrain). I'm thinking I have to reel him in closer for rabbits. Is it normal to try & shorten his hunting circumference/distance to more like 10 yards depending on what I'm hunting? Will this confuse the dog? Do I just keep commanding him to hunt closer*

Range is relevent to your needs. It is like "how much lead is needed to shoot a crossing target it depends on the shooter and no two are the same.The only thing that is certain is the barrel of the gun must be in front of the bird when the trigger is pulled.
One thing that is certain taking a dog hunting will not alter his behavior. If that was the case that's all every one would have to do. Hunting allows the dog to set the standards of behavior. Range whether it 10yds or 100 can only be achieved in the training yard using proper "quartering" techniques. While hunting birds are an unknown quanity and ther presence cannot be counted as to proper number and at the proper time in a dogs training experience
Here is a vid of a cocker that has been properly schooled you will not hear whistle or voice and you will not see the dog check in with the handler unless it is ask to do so. I would think the "range" displayed would be to you liking.


----------



## JAM

I let my dogs run around 30 yds. from me in the grouse woods. Where I hunt, the cover is so thick at times I couldn't see them so I've started using small bells on them to keep track of their range and location.

I don't hunt rabbits so don't have a feel for that. However, my dogs are steady on birds - not so on rabbits. We had just brought the youngest dog home. He was probably 8 or 9 weeks old and was walking around next to the house. All of a sudden a rabbit ran right over the top of him. Next thing I know the 6 yr. old was after it and disappeared around the other side of the house and shortly came back with that rabbit. No BB's!

Love the cocker video.


----------



## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> Here is a vid of a cocker that has been properly schooled you will not hear whistle or voice and you will not see the dog check in with the handler unless it is ask to do so. I would think the "range" displayed would be to you liking.


 
Impressive hard working dogs, in 9 minutes or so of "trialing" I counted a conservative 95 whistles, thats counting a 'toot toot' as one, not two. The range those dogs worked would be a handicap for me in the grouse woods of Mich, or the pheasant fields of NoDak, SoDak, or Kansas, I can think of places in Iowa and SoDak, ditches, fense rows though that the range would be appreciated, and I can think of my father, slower than I, where that range would very much be appreciated, you make a very valid point about range and personal preference.

95 whistle commands in 9 minutes of video, which I think is a shame, but they play by the rules and what very nice dogs they are. I would love to own one of those dogs, give it it's head, allow it some range and watch it just flat produce birds. I never saw the dog out of range that it needed a command. 


Hal,

This is what I mean by the coverdog/grouse hunting pointer guys, they do far less "control" work than the flushing/retrieving crowd at a younger age, more effort towards allowing the dog to learn where game lives and how to handle it without distraction from the handler, I believe flushing dog folks can learn lots from the cover dog guys in this regard. Sure the application and race will be very different, but as the guy driving the truck I should place the flushing dog in different covers than the pointing dog. I was more or less asking about the development of search to find where birds live and how to get them handled.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Hal,

Thanks for posting up that video from the Cocker Championship in England. I was struck by a couple of things about that film in comparison to the National Cocker Championships held recently here in Michigan. In '06 at Haymarsh Hunt Club and last years trial down at Hanover. I was fortunate to be able to spend a day following all the action at both event. I have a few pics from the Haymarsh trial in my gallery. 

I agree with Fred that the "piping" was far more than I expected. And maybe it was the video perspective, but the dogs seemed to be working awfully close to the handlers, even appearing "sticky" at times IMO.

The winning dogs at the NCCs on this side of the pond were faster, ran bigger and with more power, and required less whistle control for direction. They had the desired ground pattern down pat, literally shredded the cover, used the wind smartly, and didnt pass any birds either. They also sat attentively at delivery until the handlers took the birds, which were examined closely for any signs of a rough mouth. I was surprised at how the UK handlers accepted their birds .

It was five years ago but it seemd like McGagh, Ness, Hasse, Bell, Bradley et al hardly blew the whistle at all during the running, except in handling their dogs on blinds. The first two series at Haymarsh were held in waist high marsh grass. Very thick and excellent pheasant cover. And I really liked how many of the dogs would "spring up" high to look for the handler , always hunting to the gun. Very Cockery.

Any comments Hal or other Spaniel guys??

NB


----------



## gundogguy

Guys I used that video as an illustration of dogs working for SRC Stan. It was not put up to recieve likes or dislikes. Concerning the use of whistle, there are 2 dogs running in brace in that video I cannot tell you who doing the piping..Fatty&#8217;s handler or bracemate and that was the case in both segments of the vid. 1st series and run off. In the run off Fatty and her handler were pitted against Ian Oppenshaw the number one cocker man in the in the world so I&#8217;m sure the tension and drama were running at a feverish pace
I agree with you on the range of the cocker it is a little close for me also but that has been the core talent of the breed for 200 years. It is also the tradition in the UK to have Spaniels work very close. Guaranteed the Brits would think very little of some the things we do in this country with our sporting dogs. They have no prairie there and all hunting or shooting as they refer is done in the wood. Springer&#8217;s and Cockers are run very similarly in that country. 
My own personal shooting dogs are expected to run at limits of gun range, I rather enjoy the challenge.
Nothing looks as bad as a bird shot of the end of the gun barrel. I&#8217;m always testing my dog marking and retrieving ability.
[/COLOR] 
SHFred... After reading that it sounds like you are looking for a dog that has the ability to compartmentalize information and learns to understand what cover holds birds and what cover does not. A dog that keeps track of the handler and directs him to the area of cover where he could get the best shot. Beagles have long done this by baying once they cut a track to let the handler/gunner know that he was in hot pursuit of the hare. Pointing breeds have the ability to pin birds done and hold them waiting for the guns to get in position. If the handler can see or hear some electronic beeper let the hunter know the dog is indicating game by pointing or stopping. Pointing dog folks do not insist on their dogs barking on point? Do they??
Flushing dog folks just have to have a closer relationship with dog or the they will not get an opportunity to shoot. A missed opportunity is a real good teacher if one is paying attention and if not you soon will be handling your dog to work the cover closer to you.

Proper pointing dog work is what it is. Flushing dog work is what it is. I would not try to change either. I would only try to get better at handling the dog I have* now*. Regardless of my own likes or dislikes.
Range is a personal thing much like the women you pick to be your mate 
You have to live with your desicion.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Hal and Rod, good info thanks for sharing, I think I could kill a pile over that fatty dog. Headed to ac right now, puppy has a growth on her cheek.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## WestCoastHunter

One of the better threads to appear on the forum in a while. 

Thanks for the perspective Hal.


----------



## dauber

Fritz, good luck with the pup.

sgc,
Distance away from me is highly variable depending on game type, cover type, time of year, shotgun gauge/choke/ammo type, and wind direction. Also the speed of the dog I'm using is a factor.

Woodcock early in the season with my 28ga, open choke, into the wind will be very close work, quartering into wind will be slightly farther, quartering downwind farther yet and downwind will be the farthest. Compare that to pheasant hunting out west in 160 acres of crp, 12ga, full choke, 1475fps 5's downwind will be the farthest, maybe 60-70 yards while doing a figure 8 quarter back to me. Once they start tracking they get a sit whistle and we close up considerably. 

I do this with a spaniel whistle, hand signals, the page function on an ecollar, my body language, and a little voice. Once the voice and whistle signals are down cold we start taking lots of walks in the fields and woods then incorporate hand signals. the body language, and page. Wild pheasants on public land out west know whistle signals as well as the dogs, so we try to be close to silent. Good luck sgc!

Good vid Hal, that was a bunch of whistle commands. The fella's Rod listed use very little whistle, minimal hand signals and rely on body language to control distance and coverage. They are very quiet with their whistles too.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Steve great post, glad to know we are not the only ones with dogs 70+ yards on the prairies.

Mac drained it, then shot it up with some roids, we will see. Got some video of her hunting today, will try and post tomorrow.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## michgundog

SGC/Stan---
Great thread, I believe the video that Hal posted is a real good one and you may want to train Jack to work like that &#8220;fatty&#8221; dog in the video for grouse. So it appears by that video that 30 yards was Max.(??) Are you still planning on steadying Jack? If you do you may see his pattern get real close, but if you plan on shooting rabbits you may want to get the steadying down just for his own safety. 
NattyB/Rod--
That&#8217;s a great question as to why those guys use their whistle so often opposed to the guys that run trials over here. It may be just an &#8216;English thing&#8217; if you noticed when the dogs come in with their retrieves, they bend down and take the bird on the fly, but over here they train the dogs to &#8220;HUP&#8221; before taking the bird. Although, that may even be a &#8216;Cocker thing&#8217; I haven&#8217;t been to enough cocker trials to really notice.
SHF/Fritz---
Just curious why you didn&#8217;t act like the guy in the video at 11:09, when you won the GDOY this year&#8230;.LOL JUST KIDDING


----------



## Timber

Very interesting tread and video, the dogs were really cool to watch. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Steelheadfred

I'll have to re watch it Mike. **** I thought Gretzky was retiring again....good for him, lots of hard work I'm sure and the breaks fell his way, life gets emotional sometimes. I cried like a baby in the woods this fall with my old dog.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> I do this with a spaniel whistle, hand signals, the page function on an ecollar, my body language, and a little voice. Once the voice and whistle signals are down cold we start taking lots of walks in the fields and woods then incorporate hand signals. the body language, and page. Wild pheasants on public land out west know whistle signals as well as the dogs, so we try to be close to silent.
> 
> 
> 
> Roger that, Steve. All of it. Well said.
> 
> Out West, I give my guys considerably more slack, they need to play the wind, which always is blowing on the prairies. And "running silent" is key. And keying off of body language is a big part of hunting for the gun. My partner and I have hunted together long enough that we know just how we want to attack each piece of cover. Very little needs be said, when to slow down to let the dogs work and when to hurry to keep up with a dog on game. The same tactics produce birds for the guns over and over. Killing an old rooster with long and needle sharp hooks has a special sweetness to it.
> 
> Very good thread. Thanks to those that participated in it.
> 
> NB
Click to expand...


----------



## Steelheadfred

Some folks that have hunted with Ric and I, or have watched us work at the RGS fun trials know we really move, on average according to my GPS around 3mph in the woods.

I'm going to post a video in the thread below of my 7 month old pup out of BellaXJones below. She is 43lbs, she has had about 6 grouse killed over her and flushed another dozen or so, basic puppy fun walks. She had some puppy quail for gun breaking, and a few pigeons in traps during deer season but that is it. In this video you can see how I am trying to bring her along, as quiet as possible, only praising after she flushes birds. I am working her in these fun hunts in pretty open cover to try and encourage her to range as big as she would like, she still is not sure "what she is looking for." My idea is for her to learn where grouse live and to hunt to the front, I am not concerned about her working a pattern yet, hoping she will learn on her own when to seek objectives, when to quarter the wind in monoculture covers, and to get comfortable hunting at a distance from me, yet with me at her side. I will encourage this for quite some time, till I see her really get confident and start to self hunt almost, this could take all next season or it could come sooner or even later, but I want her on the ragged edge. When that confidence get's high my plan is to start developing the partnership aspect, to make sure she will sit to the whistle with a nose full of scent, to learn to work birds in relationship to me, to drive them high, not low and away. Hopefully she learns that when she sits to the whistle, then works birds for the gun she gets to retrieve. That is the plan at least, I believe I could advance her faster with more liberated birds at this stage but she also needs to learn wild bird hunting is hard work, and she needs to work hard on days with lots of birds and work even harder on days and seasons with few. 

In the video of those impressive cockers Hal posted, I'm afraid the pattern preffered to win overseas would result in our Great Lakes grouse being driven low and fast directly away from the guns, this is in my experience not the best way to kill our grouse and hopefully she learns to handle birds in a manner that the bird is more concerned about getting caught and has little if any knowledge of where I live, sure some birds will out smart us, but that's the magic of grouse hunting.

I hope you enjoy the video, she flushes a bird out from a pine, then one gets up wild, she then really starts to pick it up, what I want and flushes one around 50 yards, it quarters back at me, and I take two pokes around 45 yards as it then turns, I would not shoot at this bird over my older dogs, as it is not what I want with them, too far out for my current position, but she knows enough now that gun fire means feathers in her mouth, and I want to reiforce that during this "fun stage."


----------



## Steelheadfred




----------



## Timber

Looks like your dog has got a pretty good handle on what shes doing. Cool video, thanks for sharing.


----------



## gundogguy

WOW 
Where do I begin. SHFred thanks for the effort put forth in the production of your dog video.
Thank-you also for verifyiing my two main suppostions on the behavior of quartering.
1st..Your retriever pup does exactly as I wrote about in an earlier post, they instinctively run "north and south" by punching straight out and straight back,no wonder you have to move so quickly in the cover, just to keep up. Retrievrs for the last hundred years or so have been bred to go from point A to point B pick up something and bring it back to point A..
This goes back to 1830' when the Nova Scotia Fishing dogs were 1st use. These dog in the 1870 went to England and were used to fetch shot wild fowl and game birds.that dog went on to become the Labrador retriever.I digress
Of course by pushing the dog down field with your behavior of moving briskly, the dog takes permission to do the same. Giving permission or denying permission is really a huge part of dog training.

2nd Training the untrained dog on wild birds only develps random behaviors that will require serious corrections to diminsh.
In the wild, birds present themselves at any time. In training birds are presented for the dogs stimulation at the appropriate time, giving the dog and opportunity to learn the proper behavior.

Two Videos to support this process
1st vid of a puppy stake proper quartering pattern and demonstration of steady to wing and shot Dog is under 2 yrs of age ..or it could not be entered in a puppy stake.




 
2nd
Fully train spaniel on pheasants. You spaniels know Jee and Berni over in Wiscoonsin This Spot Rocky. at about .50 sec into the vid Rocky takes a running pheasant, very proper..

Two different spaniels different ages different handlers in different parts of the country running "east -west" not punching out "north south' finding birds in an proper manner. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYh7PY4dM-A"]Hunting English Springer Spaniel Rock River Rockin' The Field "Rocky" - YouTube[/ame]

I have to post these because I would not spaniel folks or pointing dog folks to get the wrong idea about quartering. It has to be under control
and with purpose. The randomness of training in on wild birds only will lead to issues that most folks are not equiped to deal with.

As for "hoping" the dog will learn where birds live, hope all you like, dogs cannot compartmentalize such information. The dog understands Pain and Pleasure, give them a choice and they will "learn" how to turn the pain off and give you the behavior that is Pleasurable.
Would you all think that the pup and the older dog in video both are eager to to what is pleasing???


----------



## BIGSP

Well I'm not a flushing dog guy but I've hunted behind a few. Flushers like pointers should hit objectives and if the dog is trained right I don't see how a bigger range is a problem. I think a 60 yard flusher is going to find more birds than a 30 yard flusher just like pointing dogs. Quartering in crap cover is a waste of time and energy for all dogs plus if they aren't hitting objectives how are they going to find the birds holed up in blowdowns or the odd autumn olive bush. 

One thing I know from hunting with the labs is they find as many or more grouse per hour than most pointing dogs and I think it has a lot to do with their range.


----------



## 2ESRGR8

I have killed grouse over all of the Fritz's dogs and his brothes too and none of them yo-yo(north-south) in the woods. They simply go to birds and birdy objectives, very effecient predators and highly obedient....all of them.
I am sure that by the time this *7 month old* puppy is two years old she will have an effiecient wild bird pattern down pat, consistently forward punching into objectives as the cover dictates and yes if it is linear in nature that may require a bit of north-south line running.
In the unbroken monoculture of CRP grasses in Kansas and Michigan they handle much like the windshield wiper pattern of a hunt test quartering spaniel like seen in the videos of planted birds gundogguy posted.


----------



## BIGSP

One more thing. You think dogs don't learn what cover holds birds? I'm no pro but I would strongly disagree with that statement. That is why my dogs run straight through a field to get to the cover in the other side. That is why my dogs run past every blowdown we go past. 

Hal, do you grouse hunt? And if so how much?


----------



## Duece22

BIGSP said:


> One more thing. You think dogs don't learn what cover holds birds? I'm no pro but I would strongly disagree with that statement. That is why my dogs run straight through a field to get to the cover in the other side. That is why my dogs run past every blowdown we go past.
> 
> Hal, do you grouse hunt? And if so how much?


Wasn't there a post about Bruce running in a quail trial and struggling to keep his grouse dog out of the woods? A good grouse dog that understands the game and the bird knows where they live. I will get deeper into this thread later. 




_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


----------



## BIGSP

Duece22 said:


> Wasn't there a post about Bruce running in a quail trial and struggling to keep his grouse dog out of the woods? A good grouse dog that understands the game and the bird knows where they live. I will get deeper into this thread later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


Yes. I will paraphrase him. "I learned my lesson running grouse dogs in quail trials"


----------



## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> WOW
> Where do I begin. SHFred thanks for the effort put forth in the production of your dog video.
> Thank-you also for verifyiing my two main suppostions on the behavior of quartering.
> 1st..Your retriever pup does exactly as I wrote about in an earlier post, they instinctively run "north and south" by punching straight out and straight back


 
Again she is 7 months old, I see it more or less as a lack of confidence and not wanting to lose me in the woods. As I said earlier, as she gains more confidence hunting at a distance, learns that birds are found in front of me, this will go away, as it has gone away with her mother, her father, two dogs with well over 6K grouse contacts between em, and I won't mention the number of retrieves.






> no wonder you have to move so quickly in the cover, just to keep up.


 
I move quickly cause boot leather kills grouse at the end of the day, and that is how I move, no different than when I'm playing golf and walking, I move at a good pace, I want my dogs hunting hard to the front, checking out all the thick pockets, we can and do adjust when we need to slow down say when taking other folks hunting that cant glide through the woods like us. With all this said they are wild birds and they are trying to escape, no different that a flushing efffort infront of a pointing dog, not much sauntering going on with the very good pointing dogs I have hunted grouse over or observed while judging at Gladwin.



> Of course by pushing the dog down field with your behavior of moving briskly, the dog takes permission to do the same. Giving permission or denying permission is really a huge part of dog training.


I agree it gives them permission to do the same, which is what I desire. The cover dog guys will be pretty loud, allowing the dog to keep track of them at extreme distance, while putting on a show in the trials and finding birds on the edge.



> 2nd Training the untrained dog on wild birds only develps random behaviors that will require serious corrections to diminsh.


Curious as to what this is? Cause I have one dog to bring along and the time and access to wild birds, if I'm looking for a wild bird dog, a meat dog par excellence, what is the disadvantage of training and exposure to as many wild birds as possible?



> In the wild, birds present themselves at any time.


 Not quite, I can drive you to spots that I can put the dog on wild birds in five minutes or less, maybe not this time of the year, but for sure in September through November.



> In training birds are presented for the dogs stimulation at the appropriate time, giving the dog and opportunity to learn the proper behavior.


That part is coming.



> Two Videos to support this process
> 1st vid of a puppy stake proper quartering pattern and demonstration of steady to wing and shot Dog is under 2 yrs of age ..or it could not be entered in a puppy stake.


That quartering pattern in the grouse woods will do two things, it will have the dog in crap cover in some spots 50% of the time, in monoculture spots it will drive birds out low and straight away from the guns. At least in my opinion.



> 2nd
> Fully train spaniel on pheasants. You spaniels know Jee and Berni over in Wiscoonsin This Spot Rocky. at about .50 sec into the vid Rocky takes a running pheasant, very proper..
> Two different spaniels different ages different handlers in different parts of the country running "east -west" not punching out "north south' finding birds in an proper manner.


I guess again, I have no desire for a "yo yo dog" I believe with more contacts and confidence she will hunt hard to the front and learn a pattern of production for the guns in various weather, cover types and game birds. I won't go into the differences of how planted birds behave and wild birds behave as we all know there are differences.

Also who is to define and what defines "proper manner?" Is it production of finds and handling birds for the gun? Cause if so, I'm gonna be hard to beat in the grouse woods with flushing dogs. I am going to see if Ric will take Jones out in some more open cover and get 5 minutes of Go Pro action with Jonesy working, so you can see how he works. I started Jones essentially the same way I am starting May, Ric was guiding in Alaska those summers. 




> I have to post these because I would not spaniel folks or pointing dog folks to get the wrong idea about quartering. It has to be under control and with purpose. The randomness of training in on wild birds only will lead to issues that most folks are not equiped to deal with.


I think I asked "what those issues" would be above? I can give example after example of "grouse dogs" that have never seen a planted bird, or seen less than a dozen. My buddy in the UP killed 180 grouse last season and 140 this season, his two setters have never seen or smelled a preserve bird. 



> As for "hoping" the dog will learn where birds live, hope all you like, dogs cannot compartmentalize such information. The dog understands Pain and Pleasure, give them a choice and they will "learn" how to turn the pain off and give you the behavior that is Pleasurable.
> Would you all think that the pup and the older dog in video both are eager to to what is pleasing???


They are clearly eager to please but they are also being brought along to play spaniel games, not to be wild bird dogs, no doubt a wild bird hunter could make them very good wild bird dogs though. As far as learning where birds live, association of smell of some cover types, food sources, blow dogs, I disagree, and I will go along with the cover dog folks and hard core pointing dog grouse hunter folks on this issue, who for sure believe an objective seeking dog has and does learn where grouse live.

Again, excellent discussion, I appreciate your knowledge and sharing of info and willing to debate we are lucky to have you on the forums.


----------



## gundogguy

This thread was about range of for hunting an English Cocker,not about burning up boot leather on a grouse.

The style of hunting SHFred that you enjoy is fine other than it does not fit very many folks. And really has no place in thread of information concerning flushing spaniels.

The book is still out on flushing retriever's The concept has only been around for about 60 yrs. Even Labrador folks are conflicted some want a flushing dog and some of the breeders espouse to be pointing dogs, and some them to be non-slip retrievers. I'm not sure which way the breed will go, but go it will for the better or worse. . Though seeds of change and conflict are being planted now. I just hope it does not go the way of the Irish Setter and American Cocker, for example. And those were two breeds that had a championship program to protect and their owners let them fall a part. The flushing Lab has no championship program to help it develop standards of performance that breeders can reproduce. 
Spaniel folks have been involved in the development of their sport for some 200yrs and before that when nets were use harvest game. a whole lot history and tradition that in the field bred spaniels(Springer & Cockers) is tried and true.

SRC's question were how and what to do with a English Cocker not a fast moving big running Labrador. 

if you want to have thread on how move through the grouse cover chasing a flushing Labrador by all means have at it.. some one be interested. As for me I tend to want to develop behaviors in a dog that any one may shoot birds over without taxing them selves.

Hunters of the SHFred persuaion.. I'm not here to convert any one..the christians having been trying convert the moslems 1500 yrs... and look where that has taken us.. dog trainers will not convert bird killers either. Quantity of killing is more satisfying to them than developing a seamless performing canine That's fine have it your way.
Like we say around the training group.."nice dog shame he did not get the pick of litter in owners".

Merry Christmas


----------



## Steelheadfred

I read the thread as a flushing dog range thread and adjusting range based on different game.

I want to make a comment then ask a question.

Comment: This quote paints with a large assumption swatched brush.


> Quantity of killing is more satisfying to them than developing a seamless performing canine That's fine have it your way


 this is simply not true, I train dogs to perform to the level and the fashion I desire, not how some book or some trainer deems them to be trained. I hope each of my dogs improve and when I need help I seek it out, from guys like Bruce, and Mike, and Frank, from my friends that have great dogs. My friend in the UP, you don't think he has really really good dogs?

Question: You question the Labrador Shooting dog, it's heritage and it's future. Simple question: Why do all the major high dollar pheasant lodges run the Leggy performance labrador and not the springer spaniel?

I'm not putting springers down, just asking a question, I believe strongly that I could be successful as a grouse hunter with Springers and Cockers, I may have to alter my program a tad, pick different styles of covers. I just brokered a deal for a cocker for my buddy, cause I feel strongly it is the right dog for him at this point in his life and hunting career, the Cockers I have hunted over are as turn key a bird dog as I have ever seen and at some point in my life might be a fit.

Merry Christmas to you, your family and Dogs, it is a great time of the year, this has been a great season full of memories made,


----------



## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> This thread was about range of for hunting an English Cocker,not about burning up boot leather on a grouse.


You say this but in your previous post you kind of baited Fritz and others into this thread as more than a "Spaniel range thread" by critisizing the video and Fritz program.




gundogguy said:


> The style of hunting SHFred that you enjoy is fine other than it does not fit very many folks. And really has no place in thread of information concerning flushing spaniels.


Again you know nothing of Fritz style of hunting with others, he mentions how his dogs are able to scale it back to a slower pace when hunting with slower hunters. Is that not the "response to handler" you mention when talking about training a spaniel to hunt to the gun based off of whistle, hand signals and body language?



gundogguy said:


> The book is still out on flushing retriever's The concept has only been around for about 60 yrs. Even Labrador folks are conflicted some want a flushing dog and some of the breeders espouse to be pointing dogs, and some them to be non-slip retrievers. I'm not sure which way the breed will go, but go it will for the better or worse.


See Fritz's post regarding South Dakota and all the western states. There is a line of lab for everyone, from a slow plotting upland lab to a performance lab to a non slip retriever to even pointing labs. All with the health clearances and good lineage. 




gundogguy said:


> SRC's question were how and what to do with a English Cocker not a fast moving big running Labrador.


It's a good conversation and a public forum with a lot of differnt points of veiw.




gundogguy said:


> if you want to have thread on how move through the grouse cover chasing a flushing Labrador by all means have at it.. some one be interested. As for me I tend to want to develop behaviors in a dog that any one may shoot birds over without taxing them selves.


See comments above regarding "response to handler"



gundogguy said:


> Hunters of the SHFred persuaion.. I'm not here to convert any one..the christians having been trying convert the moslems 1500 yrs... and look where that has taken us.. dog trainers will not convert bird killers either. Quantity of killing is more satisfying to them than developing a seamless performing canine That's fine have it your way.
> Like we say around the training group.."nice dog shame he did not get the pick of litter in owners".
> 
> Merry Christmas


Merry Christmas to you. I would say Fritz's dogs got the pick of the litter when it comes to owners. Few dogs will see as many wild birds fall to the gun as his do and gain the contacts and experience to do it in many states on many species and do it without missing a beat.


----------



## Scott Berg

gundogguy said:


> I have to post these because I would not spaniel folks or pointing dog folks to get the wrong idea about quartering. It has to be under control
> and with purpose. The randomness of training in on wild birds only will lead to issues that most folks are not equiped to deal with.
> 
> As for "hoping" the dog will learn where birds live, hope all you like, dogs cannot compartmentalize such information. The dog understands Pain and Pleasure, give them a choice and they will "learn" how to turn the pain off and give you the behavior that is Pleasurable.
> Would you all think that the pup and the older dog in video both are eager to to what is pleasing???


I will preface this response by saying my experience is 98% with pointing breeds. However, the suggestion that dogs can't learn to recognize cover that holds birds is ridiculous. I apologize for being rude but I just don't know how to respond to that comment in a kinder fashion. The #1 criteria in any FDSB recognized trial (cover dog, walking or HB) is ground application. In other words, how well the dog seeks natural objectives. This is a key performance trait trait that should be a primary selection criteria for breeders. Thus, the reason it is a primary evaluation croteria in trials. I would be shocked if you could find a pro trainer in the pointing dog world that would support the opinion that dogs can't learn to recognize cover that holds birds. 

Fritz, developing a dog of any breed that seeks birdy places is going to result in more finds regardless of breed, good for you.

SRB


----------



## Paco

Darn and it was going so good, guess it's only a matter of time here at the sportmans place. 
Somehow it seems this place has very good threads always digressing. Mostly because some that are (obviously) so much smarter than the others or only able to deal in absolutes. 
I for one am glad some tend to think out of the box.
Makes me wonder about being absolute about dogs.


----------



## sgc

Good videos! Are there any out there of Spaniels hunting the Grouse woods? thks,


----------



## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Question: You question the Labrador Shooting dog, it's heritage and it's future. Simple question: Why do all the major high dollar pheasant lodges run the Leggy performance labrador and not the springer spaniel?


Fritz,
I know your question was directed at Hal and Im sure he is more informed to answer it, than I am since he has owned and ran shooting preserves. I truly believe why dogs such as Springers, Cockers and Setters are not used is pure coat maintenance. It seems like I posted this before, but we live in a fast food society in a since that we want things now. The guys running the big preserves dont want to take the time to cut, comb, pick etc They can run their short coated dogs for clients all day long and at the end of the day give them some food and water, call it a day. I went pheasant hunting on Saturday and through out the day ran 2 different Springers it was the last thing I wanted to do at 8pm at night was to clean burrs, and all the other tag- a-longs out of my dogs, but it has to be done. My dogs are all outdoor kennel dogs, so I do not like to cut their coats this time of year. But Saturday the hunt was at my leisure I wouldve been 10xs more tired if I was guiding clients all day long. A well trained Springer is not any better of a bird dog than a well trained Lab or visa versa. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Steelheadfred

michgundog said:


> Fritz,
> I know your question was directed at Hal and Im sure he is more informed to answer it, than I am since he has owned and ran shooting preserves. I truly believe why dogs such as Springers, Cockers and Setters are not used is pure coat maintenance. It seems like I posted this before, but we live in a fast food society in a since that we want things now. The guys running the big preserves dont want to take the time to cut, comb, pick etc They can run their short coated dogs for clients all day long and at the end of the day give them some food and water, call it a day. I went pheasant hunting on Saturday and through out the day ran 2 different Springers it was the last thing I wanted to do at 8pm at night was to clean burrs, and all the other tag- a-longs out of my dogs, but it has to be done. My dogs are all outdoor kennel dogs, so I do not like to cut their coats this time of year. But Saturday the hunt was at my leisure I wouldve been 10xs more tired if I was guiding clients all day long. A well trained Springer is not any better of a bird dog than a well trained Lab or visa versa. Just my 2 cents.


 
Makes good sense Mike, I honestly don't know the answer. I agree with your last sentance also.


----------



## METRO1

Hal since u seem to be a better typer than me ill let u explain to some guys on here who don t seem to know the different patterns a cooker or springer will run in different wind s, explain a cross wind pattern , back wind pattern and a face wind pattern,please, and to sgc ,i promise u ,u don t want ur cocker running 50 to 70 yards,lololol,from there it will be 100 to 120, and time for e collar to hang on to him, if he s a young pup, u want to make him believe birds are always found in front of u and guns, burn that in his head during training ,cockers were bred to run tighter patterns than springer in u,k, to hunt the woodcock,thats were name cocker spaniel comes from,tight patterns and tear up the cover,just like in video,they are also tracking machine they will take a runner off a nest and track it down like no other.this is were stop whistle is important,


----------



## METRO1

ONE MORE THING THAT MADE ME LAUGH, THESE DOGS WON T PRODUCE IN north dakota,kansas,and south dakota, or in michigan woods hunting grouse, lol, give paul mcgaugh. tom ness,joe daily and kevin who just bought the blue roan male from me, book a hunt with them and see.id think ud be embarrased


----------



## Back woods

Steelheadfred said:


> Doug, it's that go pro fish eye, makes some one next to you look like the are in front of you.


We were looking into getting one of these but that's what I don't like about them. Looks like your viewing through a bubble.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Back woods said:


> We were looking into getting one of these but that's what I don't like about them. Looks like your viewing through a bubble.


It's not perfect, I'm happier with it for fishing. 






There are some others out there, go pro is so light and water prof and versatile for where you wear it. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Back woods

I thought about getting it then strapping it to the dog to get the dogs POV.

Great video on the Buck.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Back woods said:


> I thought about getting it then strapping it to the dog to get the dogs POV.
> 
> Great video on the Buck.


 
Bruce, POV of pointing grouse would be awesome, not sure how "shaky" it would be with a pointer at 12mph in the grouse woods, but the moment of the "stop" would be sweet.


----------



## Back woods

To funny. I watched the Sugar video about an hour ago. 

I just purchased the GoPro Outdoor along with the collar that Sugar was wearing during the making of the video. I think your right about the video through the woods (shaky) but the video of the find and the flush should be awesome. We will combine it with our other camera footage.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Back woods said:


> To funny. I watched the Sugar video about an hour ago.
> 
> I just purchased the GoPro Outdoor along with the collar that Sugar was wearing during the making of the video. I think your right about the video through the woods (shaky) but the video of the find and the flush should be awesome. We will combine it with our other camera footage.


 
Where did you find the collar?


----------



## Back woods

Here's the link.

http://www.thesugarcoat.com/product.htm

Looks like with some ingenuity I should be able to run it with other collars.


----------



## FieldWalker

That duck dog video is awesome.


----------



## FieldWalker

Back woods said:


> Here's the link.
> 
> http://www.thesugarcoat.com/product.htm
> 
> Looks like with some ingenuity I should be able to run it with other collars.


Going to rig it so it rest below the dogs head?


----------



## Steelheadfred

I'm with Brandy said:


> Just to get you guys to check out the quartering info from Butch Goodwin. This is copied from the opening to the instruction. I thought it very ironic.
> "Get into a discussion with a group of hunters about teaching a dog to find and flush upland birds, and at some point, the term quartering will likely be tossed out. And as the discussion gets deeper, someone will undoubtedly bring up the subject of teaching a dog to seek objectives. If you get into the middle of this debate, my friends, youre better off standing back and watching the fireworks from a distance! Like Fords versus Chevys or Labs versus Chesapeakes, everyone has their own opinion, and no one is wrong."
> http://www.northernflight.com/sdsoquartering.htm
> :lol:


 
You could have shared this along about Page two doug, would have saved some some bandwidth.:lol:

Fritz


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> *Just to get you guys to check out the quartering info from Butch Goodwin. This is copied from the opening to the instruction. I thought it very ironic.*
> *"Get into a discussion with a group of hunters about teaching a dog to find and flush upland birds, and at some point, the term quartering will likely be tossed out. And as the discussion gets deeper, someone will undoubtedly bring up the subject of teaching a dog to seek objectives. If you get into the middle of this debate, my friends, youre better off standing back and watching the fireworks from a distance! Like Fords versus Chevys or Labs versus Chesapeakes, everyone has their own opinion, and no one is wrong."*
> http://www.northernflight.com/sdsoquartering.htm
> 
> Doug, thanks for the resource. Goodwin's quartering drill is basicly the same one used by Springer field trialers for the last 75 yrs.
> After a couple of sessions with a steady dog the "guns" on the wing will have preplanted birds on each side of the course instead of having to throw birds in while the dog is cast over to the other side.
> 
> This help elimenate dog seeing or hearing birds thrown in. Pigeons work best for throwing in,however some practice must be applied or you will have volunteers or traps. Game birds generally work best when pre-planted. As Goodwin points out this is a fine drill to help the dog hunt for a small hunting party and teach the dog to stay in front of the guns and hunt for all of the guns.
> Cocker folks use this same drill,usually the guns are not as wide out on the corners


----------



## Back woods

FieldWalker said:


> Going to rig it so it rest below the dogs head?


On top of neck. I think it would get beat up pretty good hanging under the neck.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> I'm with Brandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Just to get you guys to check out the quartering info from Butch Goodwin. This is copied from the opening to the instruction. I thought it very ironic.*
> *"Get into a discussion with a group of hunters about teaching a dog to find and flush upland birds, and at some point, the term quartering will likely be tossed out. And as the discussion gets deeper, someone will undoubtedly bring up the subject of teaching a dog to seek objectives. If you get into the middle of this debate, my friends, youre better off standing back and watching the fireworks from a distance! Like Fords versus Chevys or Labs versus Chesapeakes, everyone has their own opinion, and no one is wrong."*
> http://www.northernflight.com/sdsoquartering.htm
> 
> Doug, thanks for the resource. Goodwin's quartering drill is basicly the same one used by Springer field trialers for the last 75 yrs.
> After a couple of sessions with a steady dog the "guns" on the wing will have preplanted birds on each side of the course instead of having to throw birds in while the dog is cast over to the other side.
> 
> This help elimenate dog seeing or hearing birds thrown in. Pigeons work best for throwing in,however some practice must be applied or you will have volunteers or traps. Game birds generally work best when pre-planted. As Goodwin points out this is a fine drill to help the dog hunt for a small hunting party and teach the dog to stay in front of the guns and hunt for all of the guns.
> Cocker folks use this same drill,usually the guns are not as wide out on the corners
> 
> 
> 
> I actually learned this method of teaching quartering from Mike Frederick. I thought Butchs instructions would be a good starting point for anyone wanting to train quartering and did not know where or how to start. Simple to do, just need someone to help you and some pigeons and a large open field. Dogs love this game and take to it fast. Make sure that they are getting rewarded or this game will lose its appeal to the dog.
> I agree you have to change it up. The dog becomes wise to this game. I also like to have birds planted outside to the right and left to get the dog out to the sides. I also like to hand throw them in too.
> I like pigeons they always seem to flush well. We have a love hate with chucker, Brandy loves them because she can catch them even when they flush she can grab them out of the air. This is why I hate them. So I dont like to use them. Pen raised pheasants are okay for planting out on the sides if their contact with humans has been limited. Tennessee reds or a bob white cross work well for tossing in if the weather is good.
Click to expand...


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> gundogguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . We have a love hate with *chucker,* Brandy loves them because she can catch them even when they flush she can grab them out of the air. This is why I hate them. So I dont like to use them. Pen raised pheasants are okay for planting out on the sides if their contact with humans has been limited. Tennessee reds or a bob white cross work well for tossing in if the weather is good.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent Good strong consisitent quartering habits develops consisitent bird finding skills. and a way for manners,i.e. steadiness to be reinforced on a routine basis. It is the routine that develope the habitual steady dog.
> Chukars are very seldom used by springer culture for the very reason you decribe. That behavior of catching or pegging the chukar has also led to a softness in flush in a good number of dogs.
> Back in the late 70's early 80's a number of clubs across the country tried to run some "chukar trials" It was a not a good deal I have not seen a trial in atleast 15 years. Test community still uses them, to some extent but that because of the time of year they are holding the test,not correct but that's the way it goes
Click to expand...


----------



## sgc

Hal, thanks for all of your insight. It's been a real learning experience for me. Stan


----------



## FieldWalker

Back woods said:


> On top of neck. I think it would get beat up pretty good hanging under the neck.


I think it'd get smashed up pretty quick from dogs darting under fallen trees / logs / etc.


----------



## michgundog

Hey Hal and Doug what do you guys think of this quartering drill?

http://www.gundogsonline.com/video/hunting-dog-training/teaching-your-dog-quartering.htm


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Hey Hal and Doug what do you guys think of this quartering drill?
> 
> http://www.gundogsonline.com/video/hunting-dog-training/teaching-your-dog-quartering.htm


 T.Dokkens (Dokkens dummies) method is good as long as your dog has been collar condiitoned and has has had place training. It would only be effective for the dog after a feww sessions. Used more than that it could create popping. Much like you see with retrievers that are handled on marks to often. And much like the retriever in the Video
Jim Dobbs(Dogtra e-collars) introduced this system to the spaniel community back in the 90's works well in conjunction with live birds.
Jim would place folding chairs in the field, dog had to caste outside the chairs to get a bird planted roll in. If the dog cut the chairs short then NO Bird, until he run the proper pattern, there again ecollar conditioning and place board training, a prerequsit. Literally all training or teaching drills carry some form of prerequsit training.
Like any exercise design for training one most be judious in it's application.
If live birds are used and shot then you have the system that keeps the dogs attitude up and drive in top gear
this is the great equalizer in keeping a dog from going stale during training. Pressure builds, there must be a release, birds are usually the release the spaniel trainer gives his dogs


----------



## Steelheadfred

Lots of popping in that last promo video of the FCh Spaniel at stud.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Lots of popping in that last promo video of the FCh Spaniel at stud.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 
Though I would not be to sure about Pepper, David uses a silent whistle,
so when the camera is on the dog I'm not sure if David Lissett
did not blow a sit whistle, to give the dog a new line up that mountain. In his training video he uses both a Acme silent and Acme 211, so the listener/viewer understand whistle, and when it is used.
It's a pity that the dog will probable only be used as a stud 125 times in his lifetime...lots of babies out of dog like that! Good studs in England get lots of bitches.. and "Jet" his call name wil be used alot
Hi-on!


----------

