# 45-70 vs .444



## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

huntinglakia said:


> what is the purpose of mounting the scope that far forward?


Well.. Let me first start by saying it is a personal preference. I use my .45-70 and .444 as "woods guns" for hunting in close quarters, thicker cover, cedar swamps etc. Having said that, IMO, I think the scout scope set up looks alot better than having the scope hang off the back of the receiver over the hammer. I also like the scout scope set up because it allows the shooter to get faster target acquisition and have a larger FOV. Ever tried to get the cross hairs of a traditional scope set-up on a running deer that is 25 yrds away in heavy cover... It can be difficult at times. The scout setup solves this problem as the shooter normally keeps both eyes open when shooting increasing the FOV.. No better FOV than the naked eye. 

Also, with the detachable rings, you are able to remove the scope and use the open sites in very heavy cover or low light conditions. If I couldn't mount a scout scope on my lever guns, I would have no scope at all. I tend to be a traditionalist when it comes to leverguns and think they should be used to hunt in heavy cover with open sites. I think a scout scope is a fair compromise.

Leverguns with see through mounts IMO look ridiculous and cause the shooter to loose his/her cheek weld by having to keep their head high in the air to see through the scope. Leverguns with traditional style scope mounts render the open sites obsolete and force you to have to use a hammer spur/extension to get around the scope. 

Hope my explanation helps. The Scout setup just makes sense to me and is very easy to use for shots up to 100yrds and even more. 

I know a few of the other guys have their leverguns set up this way.. Maybe they will chime in with their opinions. 

Good choice to go with the .45-70 by the way!! You will not be disappointed. 

Jeff


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## huntinglakia (Nov 5, 2007)

so with the scout scope, is the scope a single magnification or can you get one that is adjustable? people are mentioning leupold...which model etc. i do like the look of the scout scope. Where can you get the rail? details!!


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## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

huntinglakia said:


> so with the scout scope, is the scope a single magnification or can you get one that is adjustable? people are mentioning leupold...which model etc. i do like the look of the scout scope. Where can you get the rail? details!!



Ok.. This question has been beaten to death on www.marlinowners.com . you may want to have a look over there and use the search function. 

There are many that use only scopes intended for use in a scout setup and there are also some that use other scopes too. I think that there are only 2 manufactures, that I know of anyways, that manufacture scopes specifically for this application. I think Burris or Bushnell makes one and then Leupold makes one. The leupold one that I have is the FX-II 2.5X28mm IER Scout. It is a fixed power 2x scope and is intended to be mounted forward of the receiver. It has an intermediate eye relief for this reason (I think it is 9-17 inches of eye relief to be exact) 

now, others say that Pistol scopes and shotgun scopes work just as well mounted in the scout position. I have no clue if they do work well as I have never used anything other than the leupold mentioned above for this purpose. Do some searching online and in some of the Marlin forums and you will find plenty of discussions regarding scout scopes, scout scope set ups, etc... 

as i said above, the rail is made by XS and can be found at cabelas or any other online vendor. Here is the XS website. http://www.xssights.com/store/scope.html

I also have the XS ghost ring as my open site and it works very well.. Poke around their website and you will see what I am talking about.


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## huntinglakia (Nov 5, 2007)

i appreciate it! i will take a look on the marlin website and go from there. I have a few weeks before the gun comes in.


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## Wildone (Aug 8, 2008)

Many Alaskan guides use the 45-70 with 540 GRAIN SUPER-HARD-CAST :yikes: or 12ga into the bush to kill wounded Brown bears.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

I have several rifles set up with scout style optics including my 45-70 Guide Gun and my 870 slug gun. I find it really helps me acquire the target better with both eyes open, not to mention on harsh recoiling guns you never have to worry about getting scope slapped. Also can help keep the scope lower to the bore on certain guns.


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## henrylehman (Nov 28, 2009)

45/70................my opinion it is the best by far, they have been used for 100 years or more by our military. hornady lever revolution are expensive but they really get out there.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

I'm not going to get into the argument about which chambering would be best, as they are both pretty similar and would each work well for deer. I've had a 444 Marlin since the 70s and have taken a quite a few deer with it (whitetails, mule deer and bigger stuff too). I never did like any of the ammo available commercially though. My 444 sat unused in my vault for 15 years because of a bad encounter I had with a factory load blowing up on impact on a deer. A few years ago I discovered a company (Conley) that made semi custom factory loads for the 444 with a Nosler Partition bullet. I got some, it was accurate, so I took the 444 into the woods in 2006, 2007 and 2008 taking three deer with it, one each year. The performance of the Noslers was fantastic. A nice clean hole right through all of them with minimal meat damage. All three deer died very quickly too with two going down within sight and the other running about 50 yards. I did not hunt with a gun this year, but if I had, the 444 would have been used again. I tried the Lever Revolution ammo in another gun and did not like the results much. Conley makes 444 and 45-70 ammo with Nosler Partitions.


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## 45/70fan (May 29, 2005)

As my screen name indicates, go 45/70. Even if you don't reload you can buy anemic factory rounds that are equal to the black powder cartridges used to decimate the buffalo herds. However, if you want to go with some real stompers you can buy those too, or if you know a reloader I'm sure they will help you out.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ok, Reading through here, It is very easy to see that some people simply post second hand information that they have taken without a grain of salt, instead of really researching the information.

Out of the 3, the 444,45-70, and 450 Marlin, each is suitable for any game in north America, and any game anywhere in the world when Loaded right. I especially love the 45-70 fans Talking about how superior their round of choice is without understanding their own argument. The 45-70 has been around for, yes, over 130 years. As such, in lever actions we know that it can be loaded up hot in MODERN guns. However, as far as loads are concerned, it is at its max potential. You cannot develope it that much farther.

A common Argument is that the 45-70 uses heavier bullets, and is therefore automatically superior to the 444. What should be mentioned here is that You don't mix and match caliber to weight ratio. A 338 will shot a 250gr bullet at 2400fps, and a 45-70 can be handloaded to shoot 300gr bullets that fast. Sure, the 45-70 bullet is heavier, but which load is better for taking on dangerous game? The 444 can be loaded with bullets up to 410gr's in weight(Cut rifling, 375gr for micro groove). These .430-.432 caliber 410gr bullets are the equivolent of a 550gr or more .458 caliber bullet. 

Another interesting thing is that for most hunting applications, the 444 is actually a wiser choice if you are a handloader compared to the 45-70. It has less Recoil, can be loaded with just as much of an array of bullets for plinking to hunting dangerous game. Also, as a general combination load, the 444 with a 265gr Hornady Flap point shoots flat enough that you can hunt with it out to 300 yards or just beyond, If You Practice!! Greater Range, less recoil, and the same on game results as the 45-70. As they say in the business industry, "WOW! What a deal!!"

Remember what I said about devevlopement? An individual on another forum dedicated to marlin firearms has just finished developement on a specially modified 444 Marlin Rifle opened up to allow the 444 to have heavy bullets seated farther out. With some other special modifications inside the rifle to handle this special handload, he has been able to load those 405-410gr bullets to 2100-2150 fps and stay within the pressure limits of the Marlin 336 Action's constraints. 300-325gr bullets were pushed along at about 2400FPS in this rifle as well. 

Rember what I said about the 410gr 44 bullets being the equivolent of the 550+ grain bullets in the 45? You would not be able to match those loads with the 45-70 unless you use a Ruger #1 action single shot. Keep in mind that these modifications where made in conjunction with a gunsmith and after extensive study and research went into the design. It took multiple years to develope it so as to make sure it remained safe, but met the goals set as far as performance. Don't try it at home.

All this being said, my intent with this has been non-biased. This is just factual information about three useful and wonderful Cartridges. My own feelings on them have not entered in until now. I own and hunt with a 444, and Have since I was 13. It was a gift from my father. To me, the beauty of the 45-70 is as it was designed. A Black Powder Cartridge! Traditional hunting just sets pride in someone once they have worked and made the attempt to hunt as was traditionally done. I would love to hunt with a Marlin lever action 1895C with Black Powder loads, and a Marble's Tang sight. 

As a final note, The information about the 35 Rem.. This is a great Cartridge, but over the years has lost about 200fps off the Muzzle from what it was originally loaded to. Handloaders can bring it back up to orriginal stats, and in Marlins slightly exceed them, making it a superior round to the 30-30 within the same ranges as both rifles see. Within 150 yards, both work exceptionally well. You just need to know your rifle. There is a reason that Old Remington Pump rifles chambered for the 35 are popular for hunting even 70-80 years later!


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

_"These .430-.432 caliber 410gr bullets are the equivalent of a 550gr or more .458 caliber bullet."_

Not as far as terminal performance is concerned! Kinetic energy calculations are fun to debate but nothing is going to stop a 550 gr bullet!


_An individual on another forum dedicated to marlin firearms has just finished developement on a specially modified 444 Marlin Rifle opened up to allow the 444 to have heavy bullets seated farther out. With some other special modifications inside the rifle to handle this special handload, he has been able to load those 405-410gr bullets to 2100-2150 fps and stay within the pressure limits of the Marlin 336 Action's constraints._

And I can just as easily modify a 45-70 to get similar results.

What is really needed for the 45-70 is a 400-450 gr .458" XTP from Hornady!

Ruger #1 is on my wish list for loading spire point 500 gr bullets!


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## dogjaw (Nov 8, 2000)

huntinglakia said:


> i think i have pretty much marked the .444 off. i am torn now between the 450 and 45-70. from what i can tell..if you reload the 45-70 is the one to go with and has more ammo choices. the 450 is better for the non-reloader. I do NOT reload nor do i plan to.


Go with the 45-70. I have an 1895. You can buy a lot more standard factory ammo from Federal, Remington, Winchester, Hornady etc which feel like more of a push than a punch out of the rifle. If your going after the big guys, you can buy Buffalo Bore, Garrett or similar ammo which puts you on equal footing with the 450. Garrett states their 45-70 Sledgehammer will pass through a brown bear stem to stern at 200 yards. The Federal 300 grain hollow point uses the Speer Unicore bullet and is one heck of a load. That bullet will pass through elk and moose at extreme angles and hold together. Reloading or not, the 45-70 has more options without giving anything up to the 450.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

jmoser said:


> _"These .430-.432 caliber 410gr bullets are the equivalent of a 550gr or more .458 caliber bullet."_
> 
> Not as far as terminal performance is concerned! Kinetic energy calculations are fun to debate but nothing is going to stop a 550 gr bullet!
> 
> Ruger #1 is on my wish list for loading spire point 500 gr bullets!


 
You missed the entire point. And there was nothing in my post about Kinetic Energy. You yourself are missing some very important details in your reply to my post. Penetration is a Combination of factors. The end result of Mass, Momentum, Cross Section, and density moving through resistance. This is what I was referring to. I don't by into the Foot pounds of Energy, or as it is sometimes laughably referred to as "Knock-Down Power". 

The 45-70 has been loaded to it's absolute maximum potential, in the Ruger Number 1 Action. I recognized that fact. I also made mention of the fact that I was referring to capabilities in the Marlin Lever Action. Now, I will say that You are Both Wrong and correct at the same time on your assertation that you can modify a 45-70 the same way. You are right that you can modify the Rifle, but completely wrong on the aspect of the Cartridge. 

A lot of time, research, and developement went into a series of Rifles that I referrenced in my earlier post. Consideration was given to cartridge as well as the platform. Where you are correct is that the rifle can be modified to achieve similar performance, but not with the 45-70 case. In fact, it is already comercially available as proprietary ammunition from a small company up in Alaska under the name of the .457WWM(Wild West Magnum) from Wild West Guns. It is a specifically lengthened 45-70 case. The rifle last I heard can shoot both the .457 and 45-70 rounds. This being the only way to Achieve the modifications you claimed would be the same.

If you are really interested in knowing the particulars just study the individual cases. While both cartridges may have the same or similar over all loaded case length, the 444 Case is actually a longer case. Just like if you stand a 44 special case next to a 44 mag case(Both Empty). Now, In my original post I was concerned mostly with facts. And lets face it. Many people have had it in for the 444 from its inception. It is a cartridge that defied the odds, and one you should be appreciative of. Because it Pre-Dates modern 45-70s. Had it not been for the 444, we Probably would not have the choice of 45-70 rifles and ammunition today. 

I kept my opinions out of the earlier post till the end for a reason. It is meant to be a factual piece of information. Opinions don't change facts. Bias has a way of getting around back onto people. Lets face it. Not everyone wants to drive a prius. Everyone likes to feel like they have their own unique car, or rifle for that matter. The old timer hunting with a 44-40 still instead of a 30-30 like all his buddies. Some people drive Fords, Others Drive Chevy, and some prefer a Dodge. A Truck is a Truck is a Truck. The 444, 45-70, and 450 Marlin as I stated earlier are all great cartridges capable of "Equal Performance on game" if loaded the correct way.


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

Good choice on the rifle and welcome to the brotherhood.If your not going to reload you can pass your emty casing my way.


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## Forever444 (Feb 17, 2011)

Not to be biased , but the 45/70 does not have any distinct advantage over the 444. The only time the 45/70 will be "stronger" is inside of 50 yards, and once you get past that the 444 clearly has the advantage in both trajectory and energy. A 300-350gr cast or penetrating bullet at 2200 fps WILL stop anything in North America with one shot. And the 265gr Leverevolution from Hornady provide devastating performance on game, deer just drop. But really it's like comparing a 270, 280, and a 30/06 basically the same, the 270 shoots flatter and the 30/06 uses heavier bullets, while the 280 is a combination of both. Between the 444 and 45/70 either is a good choice for most hunting.


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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

Forever444 said:


> Not to be biased , but the 45/70 does not have any distinct advantage over the 444. The only time the 45/70 will be "stronger" is inside of 50 yards, and once you get past that the 444 clearly has the advantage in both trajectory and energy.


Yeah, whatever. Rifle bullets and pistol bullets are two totally different animals. 

I can still shoot pistol bullets out of my 45-70 (if I wanted to)... but good luck finding rifle bullets to push out of your 444 :lol:


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

brock_gingery86 said:


> These .430-.432 caliber 410gr bullets are the equivolent of a 550gr or more .458 caliber bullet.


HUH? First, I have no dog in this hunt. I've never even shot any of these calibers. You state that you're not talking about KE, so what exactly are you talking about? I am no expert, but the difference sounds like about 140 grains. BTW, the OP asked about the 444 and 45/70 (clearly stating he has no interest in handloading). I don't think he planned on spending years with a gunsmith to re-invent the wheel.  CDAD


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

TheCrawdad said:


> HUH? First, I have no dog in this hunt. I've never even shot any of these calibers. You state that you're not talking about KE, so what exactly are you talking about? I am no expert, but the difference sounds like about 140 grains. BTW, the OP asked about the 444 and 45/70 (clearly stating he has no interest in handloading). I don't think he planned on spending years with a gunsmith to re-invent the wheel.  CDAD


 
Ok, First, there are Custom ammunition makers online who offer factory loaded 444 rounds other than the Remington 240gr soft point. 

Now, I was not talking about Muzzle Energy, IE Kinetic Energy. Same goes for the OGW and Taylor Knock out Formulas as well. They say you need 1000 foot pounds of energy to kill a white-tail for a rifle caliber at any distance. However, a 44 mag handgun is another matter entirely and can't be classed the same way. WELL, why not? Because to admit the truth would prove the Kinetic energy crowd bogus. It is basically used only to compare cartridge striking force accross the extreme spread of cartridges out there. We know that Elmer keith shot a deer at 600 yards with his 44 revolver after a client wounded it. A test was done by a current writer to see if it was even possible. He shot into an empty cabin at that distance. The 44 mag penetrated the first 8 inch thick wall, into a brass bed frame, and out the other wall. So much for Colonel Askins talking about Catching 44 Mag bullets with a baseball glove at that distance.

I'm going to give an example here. And please if you have any more questions afterwards ask. Nobody ever learned anything by not asking. 
A common argument I hear these days in gunshops everywhere you go is about a little Subject called "Sectional density". This is a common argument made by fans of certain calibers such as the 6.5mm, or .338. They however rarely know what half of it means, and think that that is the only important measure in how a cartridge measures up. I got cussed at, told what an idiot I was, and all sorts of other things a year and a half ago when I bought a New to me rifle. A 350 Remington mag. Everyone swore up and down that the 338magnums were by far the superior cartridges and that I was hurting myself by wanting to have the 350.

"It doesn't have the Sectional Density." "It Doesn't really do anything like a standard cartridge or a Magnum as well as those can do." "There are far more .338 bullet options out there." everything they talked about was a load of paper ballistics. Perfectly fit for the office shredder. Not once did any of them mention field merits. My father was one of those people. I explained to him that the 350 has taken just about every game animal on this earth. This includes Hippo, Rhino, Elephant, Cape Buffalo.. All of the African Big Five. This happened not long after the cartridge was introduced in the 60's. On top of that, it does the same job with the same on game "Terminal Performance" as a 338 winchester mag. It does it with Less Recoil, Due to a smaller powder charge, more efficient case, and it is a short action to boot. A more compact rifle. Sound familiar? This is exactly what the hype was about the New "Short Mags" back around 2001.

They came at me about how I could never shoot as far with it as with a 338 Magnum. They quit talking when I told them that the 350 has an almost Identical trajectory to an 8mm Remington magnum. And it still has less recoil. It was one thing to read about cartridges and performance for these people. But they had no idea how they actually work in the field. Just like the Brilliant Scientists from the Climategate Scandal. They had to manipulate the data and falsify things to get the results they wanted in their experiments. 

Now, for future reference. When you compare bullets, Weight is not the only thing you need to compare. Start using the Phrase "Heavy For Caliber" when describing bullets by weight for comparrison. Bullet weight is only part of the comparrison, but it must be made with the acknowledgement that the bullets are in the same class in each individual caliber. 44-240gr, compared to the 458-300gr hollowpoints. 
Next classification comes based on construction. The 265gr Hornady flat point is a rifle bullet, not a 44 cal pistol bullet. It was designed for the 444 specifically. I don't like the LE bullets. In the 444 I feel they are about as useless as anything. 

This is after testing bullets. The 265gr Flat point round nose hornadys mushroomed and held together when striking heavy steel plate reinforced by rail-road tie plates. Anyone who has ever handled those knows what I am talking about. The bullet melted and pierced the metal plates welded to the top of those rail road plates, but stopped at the face of them. They held together and mushroomed perfectly. And this wasn't at far distance. I shot as close as 30 yards with heavy loads, 2250-2300 Feet per second out the muzzle. Being that close you can feel the strike against the plate come back and hit you in the chest. This is extremely good construction for a simple style bullet. 

Just remember when you go to compare cartridges that there are two types of comparrisons. Real world, and paper. The Real world is the only one that Maters. Paper is best used for cleaning yourself before leaving the Deer Camp Two-Holer.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Quack Addict said:


> Yeah, whatever. Rifle bullets and pistol bullets are two totally different animals.
> 
> I can still shoot pistol bullets out of my 45-70 (if I wanted to)... but good luck finding rifle bullets to push out of your 444 :lol:


 
Well Quack Addict, You certainly chose your name well. Because as a quack you don't know much about Firearms do you?

First of all, the Hornady 265gr Flat point round nose interlock bullet is a "RIFLE" bullet. It was designed specifically for use in the 444 Rifles after they came out. Second, I advise you to do a little research on your own for companies providing bullets for the 444. Start with one by the name of BearTooth Bullets. The owner of that Company is a Dedicated 444 shooter if I remember right and he offers a lot of bullets for the 444. They are Hard Cast Gas Checked bullets that will shoot accurately, flatly, and hard into whatever you point your rifle at. There are other makers including custom Mould makers who cater to the 444 shooter. Most of us find that when shooting bullets like this, we need to match the diameter to the bore better. This means having the bullets sized to .432 diameter instead of .429 as is most often used in the 44 mag(The Hornady bullets measure .430). 

I highly recomend that before you shoot your mouth off to someone again, do your research first. It will save you lots of hassle. If it is any consolation to you, A writer who has done work for "Buckmasters" Publications wrote an artical on Muzzleloader ignition systems. In that Article he stated *"Black powder and pyrodex burn, not explode like nitrocellulose based powders. They do this at a fixed rate."* Hate to make the guy look like an idiot, but he did not do his research. Nitrocellulose AKA Smokeless powder is classified as a Flamable Solid, as is Pyrodex and other black powder substitutes. Any jackwagon can go online and look up some black powder company site and they will find a little warning there. "ATTENTION: Black Powder is an Explosive Material!" There is a reason that Smokeless powders can sometimes be shipped air freight, while black powder must usually be shipped via ground. Also, Many localities have restrictions on storing black powder or any other kind of explosives. Not so with smokeless or Blackpowder substitutes. Many stores that do not go through the hassle of getting licensed to store blackpowder still carry BP substitutes and smokeless propellants.

*Moral of the story? Do your research!*


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

By the way Crawdad, that instance with the individual on a different forum is just one man who desided to take his rifle to whatever extremes he could go for. That just shows what can be done. The 444 lacks nothing in terms of game taking potential when loaded correctly. As for not handloading. One day he might. Many people get into it for saving money, but quickly find out how enjoyable it is. I personally bought my own single stage press and started rolling my own when I was 15 or 16.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

TheCrawdad said:


> That said, the truth is that these two calibers are much more alike than they are different. As stated, by rifle standards, they are both relatively slow, both toss a large pill for a rifle, and I can't use either one where I hunt.
> Bottom line for me: 444 is too slow to be considered even close to a flat shooter, and in the big bore game, it's kind of anemic. If you _need_ a big bore rifle, why go half way with the 444 ? Man up and take the recoil. Get the 45-70. CDAD


Thank you Crawdad, and what I have been saying the whole time is that neither is really superior to the other and that they are both wonderful cartridges. As for critters in michigan, there is also russian boar if you were to hunt Bear Mountain, the outfitting service up in the U.P. Guessing by your comments, You must live in the southern half of the glove. I currently am forced to reside in the real "Hell, Michigan", pardon my language, just south of the border. Even unlucky like that, I still hunt and fish in michigan any chance I can get.

As for "Manning Up", none of my rifles have brakes on them, and my reloads are a little more stout than what is considdered normal. I don't have any problem with recoil in rifles or shotguns. Handguns maybe, because of a few rearanged tendons after an inner hand bone break, but I digress. Frankly, Because of what I can do with my 444 and how I am able to handload for it, I won't ever feel outgunned with it, no matter what animal I ever decide to hunt with it. 

As for the topic on pills, I've been avoiding coming out and asking why the 45-70 die hards think you need a 600gr bullet to go out and get some bambi steaks. I'm not here to bash anyone, even if I did come close with that one guy that I told he didn't know what he was talking about. Had he done a little reading, It woulda been fine. Anyway, Best of luck to you, and Straight shooting.


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## Forever444 (Feb 17, 2011)

In the ORIGINAL post it was asked what would be preferred for huning in Michigan with a LEVER ACTION using LEVEREVOLUTION AMMO between the 444 Marlin and 45/70 Gov't. cartriges. Now instead of everyone being ignorant about how the 45/70 can handle a 540gr slug or the 444 can shoot at a higher velocity, we can look at the ballistics tables of the ammo he said he will be using. The 45/70 has a HEAVIER 325gr FTX while the 444 has a LIGHTER 265gr FTX, but the 444 shoots 300fps FASTER, with less recoil, and has around a 30 or 40yd advantage in MPBR. The 45/70 MPBR is roughly 190yds+/- while the 444's is 225yds +/-. And when we compare energy levels the 444 clearly has the advantage, so instead of being ignorant and comparing ammunition that is going to cost $65 a box we can compare affordable ammunition that is more than likely going to be used, where the 444 clearly has the advantage, a small one, but it is there. And from personal experience the 444 has worked wonders on deer out to 200 yards, and yes I am shooting cloverleafs with the Leverevolution. 

Now for all of you saying a 308 or 30/06 has an advantage over both in range and trajectory, well DUH! But honestly have any of you shot a deer past 250 yards in Michigan? I haven't. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I hunt in the woods and have only shot a few deer past a 100 yards. But for a powerful, hard-hitting big bore lever-action you will probably never notice the difference between the 444 and 45/70 using easy to find ammo. Just giving my opinion on why I prefer the 444.


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

The last 7-8 years I hunted deer in the upper half of the lower penn, around Clare and Mottersville I was using a Contender pistol in 45/70 firing 300gr Hornaday jacketed hollow points.

If you can handle the recoil (which I can't anymore because of arthritis) I would put that gun up against any rifle made for deer hunting. Lightweight compared to a rifle, and you can carry it in a holster if you're gonna walk in tight swamps etc., that is if you want.

Packs a big punch, extermely accuarte, but the most important thing is you can sit down to hunt AND can swing that pistol in a far greater angle and much more quickly then any rifle or shotgun.

I'm very hard of hearing and just about never hear deer coming, so for me this is an extra big feather in my cap.

I wouldn't think of hunting deer with a .357Mag or other small calibers, though I know the .357Mah will take deer if close enough and with a good kill shot, but I like the 45/70 cause I know what ever I hit is going down. I also have a 44Mag barrel for it, but have never taken it deer hunting.

Sadly I haven't been in the northeran lower or UP in 7 years. But I can still legally use it down in the souther parts for deer. But the last few years I gave it up because of very bad hand pain and now hunt with a Thompson Omega. But each to his own I say. Thats why there are so many different guns. Gives everyone a good selection.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Jim..47 said:


> Sadly I haven't been in the northeran lower or UP in 7 years. But I can still legally use it down in the souther parts for deer. But the last few years I gave it up because of very bad hand pain and now hunt with a Thompson Omega. But each to his own I say. Thats why there are so many different guns. Gives everyone a good selection.


 
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope this next season will go a little easier on you. As for the deer north of the bridge, there isn't much to talk about. Wolves and other issues up there have just about decimated what used to be had up there. Our Cabin up on M77 isn't much use as a Hunting area now because of it. Last time we went hunting there, I was the only one to see deer, 3 of em. A button buck, and two does. One of the does had half it's tail bitten off, and every night we could hear the wolves howling outside. It's not what it used to be. As for Clare, Where abouts did you hunt up there? My dad's family is from there, and he grew up just outside of town between Clare and Farewell off old Highway 10 I think is the road.


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

I got my towns mixed up. It was Leota that we hunted near, plus Mottersvile. From Leota we hunted northwest of town just past the old cemetary. Sorry, I've never hunted near Clare, just Clare county.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

Forever444 said:


> Now for all of you saying a 308 or 30/06 has an advantage over both in range and trajectory, well DUH! But honestly have any of you shot a deer past 250 yards in Michigan? I haven't. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I hunt in the woods and have only shot a few deer past a 100 yards. But for a powerful, hard-hitting big bore lever-action you will probably never notice the difference between the 444 and 45/70 using easy to find ammo. Just giving my opinion on why I prefer the 444.


 I guess I don't really fit in on a gun forum. I like my 30-06. I've never been charged by a deer. I've killed lots of them. My '06 kills em all the way dead at close range, and is capable of longer range should the opportunity present itself. CDAD


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

TheCrawdad said:


> I guess I don't really fit in on a gun forum. I like my 30-06. I've never been charged by a deer. I've killed lots of them. My '06 kills em all the way dead at close range, and is capable of longer range should the opportunity present itself. CDAD


I only ever killed one deer with my old 30-06, but it sure was a thing to remember. I shot it at about 100yds in the heart lung area. It just stood there motionless for about what seemed like a whole minute, then fell over dead as stone. That was many years ago. Later after hunting season closed I found out that my old Springfield was listed as dangerous to shoot because the barrel could rupture so I retired it. :sad:


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Jim..47 said:


> I only ever killed one deer with my old 30-06, but it sure was a thing to remember. I shot it at about 100yds in the heart lung area. It just stood there motionless for about what seemed like a whole minute, then fell over dead as stone. That was many years ago. Later after hunting season closed I found out that my old Springfield was listed as dangerous to shoot because the barrel could rupture so I retired it. :sad:


 
Don't Worry about the mix up, It's fine. Anyways, You may want to get that Old Springfield to a Gunsmith. I Recall hearing about that many many years ago. The guns in question were made prior to 1920's I think, but was limited to only one out of a handful of rifles, the problems being the barrel sometimes, but for the most part the action was very brittle. On the guns tested, those with the problem when fired would have their actions crack open, and parts of the bolt would sometimes shatter almost. With the gasses coming back from the cartridge it would put them into a shooters face. In all likelyhood your rifle is not one of those with the problem. Better to get it checked out though.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Forever444 said:


> Now for all of you saying a 308 or 30/06 has an advantage over both in range and trajectory, well DUH! But honestly have any of you shot a deer past 250 yards in Michigan? I haven't. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I hunt in the woods and have only shot a few deer past a 100 yards. But for a powerful, hard-hitting big bore lever-action you will probably never notice the difference between the 444 and 45/70 using easy to find ammo. Just giving my opinion on why I prefer the 444.


Well, I know this may sound nuts, but my great uncle only hunts deer with either a .30-30, or .44-40. My grandfather favored the 35 remington at one time, and my uncle if you can believe it when he was young loved the Ruger model 44 carbine(or as it was known, the Deerstalker). That with all the pople that talk about how a 44mag rifle is innadequate past 100 yards, but in a revolver is suitable out to 150! Heck, my 7.62x54R is inbetween the 308 and 30-30. It will take a deer out wonderfully clear out to 300 yards. Basically, I advocate .25's on up. All will work on deer caliber wise if you have the right case. Sorry to those who favor the 24's Never been a fan, and I've seen a lot of bad examples from them.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

All right guys, I got to thinking and started a new thread. Sorry to hijack this one. I just can't see where either of these cartridges would have an advantage over a 30-06 _at any range_ for deer. And no, Jim, I haven't killed any deer over 250 yards in MI..... but I can.  CDAD


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

TheCrawdad said:


> All right guys, I got to thinking and started a new thread. Sorry to hijack this one. I just can't see where either of these cartridges would have an advantage over a 30-06 _at any range_ for deer. And no, Jim, I haven't killed any deer over 250 yards in MI..... but I can.  CDAD


In my opinion it's not so much an advantage between cartridges, but rather the common rifles used for the 30-06 and 444/45-70 that can have advantages in certain situations. Most hunters that have the 30-06 chambering have rifles that are bolt actions with a rather long overall lengths. Most 444s or 45-70s that hunters use are lever action rifles that are much more compact than the standard 30-06 bolt gun. There are many situations where a short, fast handling, quick repeating gun has advantages over a long, clunky bolt action. For instance, I mainly gun hunt out of homemade blinds made from piled up logs on the sides with half sheet of plywood overhead supported by four posts. I have a swivel seat and I can shoot 360 degrees quite efficiently. My big bolt action rifle is a pain in the butt hunting out of those tight blinds. Conversely my 444 Marlin is much more effective in those blinds than my long bolt action rifle and both guns are equally accurate at distances under 150 yards too, which is further than I can stretch a shot from any of my spots where I hunt in N. MI. I can also get on target faster and cycle the action much quicker with my lever action compared to my bolt action. That advantage has resulted in more than a few punched tags that would have likely been missed opportunities had I been using a bolt action. There are also situations where a long bolt action rifle with a flat shooting bullet will shine, but not in MI where I hunt. That being said, I do know that there are a lot of exceptions to the rule where 30-06s and 444/45-70s are chambered in all sorts of firearms besides what Ive been talking about.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

Trophy Specialist said:


> In my opinion it's not so much an advantage between cartridges, but rather the common rifles used for the 30-06 and 444/45-70 that can have advantages in certain situations. Most hunters that have the 30-06 chambering have rifles that are bolt actions with a rather long overall lengths. Most 444s or 45-70s that hunters use are lever action rifles that are much more compact than the standard 30-06 bolt gun. There are many situations where a short, fast handling, quick repeating gun has advantages over a long, clunky bolt action. For instance, I mainly gun hunt out of homemade blinds made from piled up logs on the sides with half sheet of plywood overhead supported by four posts. I have a swivel seat and I can shoot 360 degrees quite efficiently. My big bolt action rifle is a pain in the butt hunting out of those tight blinds. Conversely my 444 Marlin is much more effective in those blinds than my long bolt action rifle and both guns are equally accurate at distances under 150 yards too, which is further than I can stretch a shot from any of my spots where I hunt in N. MI. I can also get on target faster and cycle the action much quicker with my lever action compared to my bolt action. That advantage has resulted in more than a few punched tags that would have likely been missed opportunities had I been using a bolt action. There are also situations where a long bolt action rifle with a flat shooting bullet will shine, but not in MI where I hunt. That being said, I do know that there are a lot of exceptions to the rule where 30-06s and 444/45-70s are chambered in all sorts of firearms besides what Ive been talking about.


 I can agree with your logic, but as stated it really has nothing to do with the cartridge. And another thing, I realize that my bolt gun is a bit longer, and may cycle a bit slower. Why does it have to be "clunky" ? :lol: CDAD


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Well CrawDad, It's not that they have any particular advantages over each other. If you look at it, for any advantages the 30-06 has in one area, it gives up some in another compared to the 444/45-70/450 and vice versa. When it comes to shooting at distance, Whether it is with a 30-06 or a 444, I feel that the cartridge and rifle are not the important thing. It is the shooter. I know a lot of people who buy flat shooting cartridges, but can only print 5 inch groups at 200 yards with a variable scope! The rifles are fine, it is only their abilities that are lacking.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

Really? What do I Sacrifice? Please post on the other thread. I've hijacked this one enough. CDAD


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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

TheCrawdad said:


> What do I Sacrifice?


Dunno. Guessing it has something to do with a _"Snick-Snick"_ sound. :help:


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Quack Addict said:


> Dunno. Guessing it has something to do with a _"Snick-Snick"_ sound. :help:


I'm sorry, this proves what? That you are intolerant of Other peoples' views or choices, or that you are ignorant to much of what I've said in previous posts? I'm sorry, for someone who cries "Internet Expert", and uses cheap jabs to try and demean someone so as to make them seem somehow less credible... You're only shooting yourself in the foot.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

TheCrawdad said:


> I can agree with your logic, but as stated it really has nothing to do with the cartridge. And another thing, I realize that my bolt gun is a bit longer, and may cycle a bit slower. Why does it have to be "clunky" ? :lol: CDAD


I don't know about your bolt action gun(s), by my Ruger M77 is clunky. I push the bolt up and it goes "clunk", I pull the bolt back and it goes "clunk" once again, then I push it forward and rotate it back down and it goes "clunk, clunk" some more. Now when I cycle the action on my Marlin 444 it makes this cool sound that I would describe as precise, mechanical music.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

I have a M77 in 7mag. I know the sound. Good thing my rifles only require one shot to down my quarry- as slow and clunky as they are.:lol: BTW, that mechanical music - could it be described as a "snick snick" sound? I think I heard some other guy make reference to that sound. Mine go "bang bang". CDAD


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

Just shoot what you like!


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

junkman said:


> Just shoot what you like!


 I do. It's March. No harm in talking about guns- and the plusses/minuses of a few different ones...... On a gun forum.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Crawdad, Jim, and Trophy, all three of you got it right. There are so many wonderful firearms out there, and we don't always get a chance to shoot them all. So it's great to talk about the ones we like, the ones we use, and the ones we want to try.


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

Why not try to set up a day at a range where a bunch of guys can get together and try out different cal. rifles. Kind of a shooting exchange.Bring your rifle and a box of amo.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

junkman said:


> Why not try to set up a day at a range where a bunch of guys can get together and try out different cal. rifles. Kind of a shooting exchange.Bring your rifle and a box of amo.


I did that many years ago with a couple memebers on here and it ended up being an expensive day. I shot another guys gun and liked it so much that I had to have one myself and ended up buying a new gun after the shoot.


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

Sounds fun and a little on the pricy side,but fun none the less.


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## MIoutdoorsjunkie (Oct 11, 2006)

The OP bought a .45/70. I think he said that 4 pages back... Not sure why the Ford vs. Chevy debate is still going. Talk about beating a dead horse.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

MIoutdoorsjunkie said:


> The OP bought a .45/70. I think he said that 4 pages back... Not sure why the Ford vs. Chevy debate is still going. Talk about beating a dead horse.


 He's probably killed a few deer with it also. If you look at the original post, you'll see that it was started in December..... 2009! :lol:


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