# My Friend the grouse killer



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Linda, the best grouse dogs keep birds on the ground for the gunners, flushies or pointers, to see it to believe it, birds that run are birds that die, I live fire this, time of the year, it separates the cream from the crop and you get to witness great dog work and at times easy shooting.

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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

bombcast said:


> If you're referring to me...


Just speaking in general. Have you ever visited a relative at a retirement center? There's no getting around it! Old people like to complain! :lol:

There's an abundance of old grouse hunters who sit around at banquets and whine about "the good old days" when birds held longer, flushed slower, were generally more plentiful, and crapped magic golden nuggets.

I know plenty of young guys who do very very well and are genuinely grateful to be doing what they're doing.

I'm DEFINITELY not saying all old folks fall into the former camp (or that all young guys fall into the later). However, I doubt there's been a fundamental genetic change in ruffed grouse over the last 30 years, as some would seem to want to suggest.

More likely is that the OP's friend is hunting pressured birds in less than ideal habitat. I mean, look at the areas he hunts and tell me you don't know a dozen other guys who hit those areas on a regular basis.

If he wants to change the way he hunts to kill those birds in those areas, I'd be the last to cast judgement. However, there are still a lot of birds killed over rangy dogs wearing bells, wearing beepers, over long, steady points all over this state.

KW


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay, Have you hunted with Jerry's dog Ox? If so what do you think? mac 

Linda, I'm not going to speak for Jay. We handle our birds by out looping in front of the dog's point 30 or so yards and pushing back toward the dog. If we get to about 10 yrds without a flush we release the dog if it holds we move in closer. If it moves forward we out loop again somewhat farther and start to look for the cover break that will stop the bird. mac


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## troutchops (Apr 15, 2005)

I've been serious about my grouse hunting the last 8 years now. I've been lucky and had the opportunity to hunt with many different style dogs and I've owned a flusher and a couple pointers. There are many different ways to kill grouse for sure. Personally, I agree with boz03&#8217;s friend. I&#8217;ve found every year the birds seem more jumpy and run more. I&#8217;m most effective with a closer working pointer (50-100 yard variety), beeper in point only mode, and quietly hunting with one other person. Like Mac said, wide loop in front of the dog to pin the bird.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Speaking as a pointy dog owner. You don't need a big running dog to hunt grouse effectively. Just an experienced dog with a good nose that knows how to point and stay on point. 

If you need a big runner to find the one grouse in a 5 mile area, go find better cover.

Less noise is always better, I don't care what you hunt.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

The dog in my string that produces the most grouse for the gun on the astro is 75-125 where a loud bell and has beeper in point only. We work as a "team" she points the birds I use my eyes to see where the bird wants to take flight from. For those of you that have hunted with me we are not quite and I have came to the conclusion that noise from multiple dogs confuse the birds and they can not get a fix on where the danger is coming from. We walk fast and help the dog not expect the dog to do every thing perfect but I have those damn german dogs 
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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

I believe little has changed in the make up of the grouse over the past 30 years. With that being said just like out west with Pheasants smart birds find a way to live.

I do think it has a lot more to do with the cover, weather, time of year on how a bird behaves be it running, sitting, flushing early. I also agree that a bird that runs is a bird that dies if you have the dogs that can handle running birds. Birds that run will usually allow you to push them into a pinch point where they will have to fly and by that time as a gunner you should have the advantage of being able to read the cover and those breaks where the bird will fly.

As far as dogs I don't think range, breed, pointy/flushy matter as long as they know how to handle grouse in all scenarios mentioned above and do it without making a mistake. It is the one driving the truck that is responsible for picking the covers that will best suit their dogs and there ranges. 

RH


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Duece22 said:


> I do think it has a lot more to do with the cover, weather, time of year on how a bird behaves be it running, sitting, flushing early....
> 
> It is the one driving the truck that is responsible for picking the covers that will best suit their dogs and there ranges.


Agreed. I also think truck tracks and boot prints are a pretty good indicator of how the grouse will behave.

KW


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

"We handle our birds by out looping in front of the dog's point 30 or so yards and pushing back toward the dog. If we get to about 10 yrds without a flush we release the dog if it holds we move in closer. If it moves forward we out loop again somewhat farther and start to look for the cover break that will stop the bird. mac"

You might find this hard to believe, but in almost 30 years of bird hunting, I've learned that...and that is what we do...but what do you do when the bird is simply running faster in the other direction, which is what they're ALL doing, than you are walking/running?? You loop this way, bird goes that way, dog relocates if told to, bird goes the other way...you move, dog moves, bird moves...until bird has finally had enough

Now, I can see that this might, and does, work when you have four or five people with multiple dogs on the ground, but when you just have one or two people, and one dog, I can tell you that looping all day long might be fun, but it doesn't help you kill birds.

Kwernet, as I've asked you before, come on up anytime, and try hunting with us old goats in the real world...LOL


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

From Fritz..."the best grouse dogs keep birds on the ground for the gunners, flushies or pointers, to see it to believe it, birds that run are birds that die, I live fire this, time of the year..."

I'm still trying to understand what the hell you said, but I think you meant to say you live "for" this time of the year...ok...but explain "birds that run are birds that die"...how so...ground swatting...? LOL

and here's another lofty assertation..."the best grouse dogs keep birds on the ground for the gunners, flushies or pointers, to see it to believe it"

I can assure you, Fritz, that I have hunted behind, and owned, really good bird dogs, but I have yet to see one that manages to pluck a grouse's flight feathers to keep it from flushing...LOL


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I always get a kick out of the pointing dog people running their dogs into the ground for "false pointing"....and flushing dog people that get all mad when their flusher picks up speed and takes off on something...the hunter doesn't know that dog had a bird, he never heard it or saw it...so, as far as they're concerned, they don't have running birds that can't be cornered...LOL


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Linda G. said:


> "We handle our birds by out looping in front of the dog's point 30 or so yards and pushing back toward the dog. If we get to about 10 yrds without a flush we release the dog if it holds we move in closer. If it moves forward we out loop again somewhat farther and start to look for the cover break that will stop the bird. mac"
> 
> 
> Now, I can see that this might, and does, work when you have four or five people with multiple dogs on the ground, but when you just have one or two people, and one dog, I can tell you that looping all day long might be fun, but it doesn't help you kill birds.


Knowing Mac well enough I know he doesn't hunt in larger groups very often and knowing some of his statistics I would say this tactic DOES work. 



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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Linda G. said:


> From Fritz..."the best grouse dogs keep birds on the ground for the gunners, flushies or pointers, to see it to believe it, birds that run are birds that die, I live fire this, time of the year..."
> 
> I'm still trying to understand what the hell you said, but I think you meant to say you live "for" this time of the year...ok...but explain "birds that run are birds that die"...how so...ground swatting...? LOL


Linda, see my previous post. A bird that runs/stays on the ground allows you to push them to a pinch point or break in the cover that if you can read should give you an advantage. 

As far as a dog that keeps birds on the ground. A good grouse dog knows just how hard it can push any given bird in any given situation so that it will not take flight until the gunner is ready or makes the flushing attempt. I don't think many dogs can do this day in and day out but the good ones with a lot of contacts can and it shows in the killing opportunities presented. 

RH


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Duece22 said:


> Linda, see my previous post. A bird that runs/stays on the ground allows you to push them to a pinch point or break in the cover that if you can read should give you an advantage.
> 
> As far as a dog that keeps birds on the ground. A good grouse dog knows just how hard it can push any given bird in any given situation so that it will not take flight until the gunner is ready or makes the flushing attempt. I don't think many dogs can do this day in and day out but the good ones with a lot of contacts can and it shows in the killing opportunities presented.
> 
> RH


Well put Ric
And if the birds are always taking flight then either your cover is not good enough or your dog is not on top of its game
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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Linda, I see your point. NO pun intended. It would be impossible to do by yourself but with 2 people and a dog we can usually get the bird triangulated. I don't know what the difference is but we've been pinning the birds and getting good clear looks. Maybe the birds 50 miles north of you are as dumb as the ones in the good old days. 

mac


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

Linda, please don't take this the wrong way. You keep saying you have great dogs, hunted with other great dogs, and still can't pin them down. Others are saying their dogs do it regularly. I have a big runner and he does it all day every day. My best killing tactic is 2 guys and one dog. We loop as needed and kill birds fine. 98% of my covers are on public property. Most get plenty of pressure. Other guys and their dogs have similar results so it's not just me. 

There is a disconnect here. I don't know how to answer your posts that say it doesn't happen.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Linda G. said:


> the bird is simply running faster in the other direction, which is what they're ALL doing, than you are walking/running??





Linda G. said:


> Kwernet, as I've asked you before, come on up anytime, and try hunting with us old goats in the real world...LOL


I'm not here to strut around like a cock on a walk. I've only been hunting for maybe 7 years and only seriously pursuing grouse for maybe 5. I'm sure there's a lot you could teach me.

This much I know is fact:

1) Not ALL of the birds run EVERY time they're pointed. I've had a high percentage of GOOD shot opportunities (note the difference between "shot opportunities" and "kills" ) on pointed birds this year, as compared to birds flushing out of range or "unproductive points." Many of these shot opportunities occur without the dog having to relocate, and often within 10-20 yards of where the dog locked up.

2) Marginal cover = marginal shot opportunities (running/wild flushing birds).

3) Pressured/over-hunted birds are flightier. If you're having a hard time getting birds stuck in the same ol' coverts, it's time to do some scouting.

4) It doesn't take 4-5 guys with 4-5 dogs to kill birds. I'm sure the percentages go up, and if that's your thing that's fine. 80-90% of the hunting I do is by myself with one dog, and I still manage to knock down a bird from time to time. I just prefer to get in the woods and follow my dog and my gut, as opposed to doing the forced march in a straight line kind of thing, or negotiating/rationalizing with other hunters over where to hunt or which way to go.

I'm not here to criticize methods or question your experiences in the woods. However, when the assertions in this thread run counter to what I'm seeing, I feel like I should share what I've been seeing.

I'm more than happy to hunt with just about anyone who wants to get out there and hunt (old goat or spring chicken ). That said, I have no interest in killing contests or ego trips.

KW


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Duece22 said:


> As far as a dog that keeps birds on the ground. A good grouse dog knows just how hard it can push any given bird in any given situation so that it will not take flight until the gunner is ready or makes the flushing attempt. I don't think many dogs can do this day in and day out but the good ones with a lot of contacts can and it shows in the killing opportunities presented.
> 
> RH


When you think about it what you're describing is behavior not too dissimilar to that of a herding dog on its game.

Speed is also key.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Take it from I guy who spends most of my hunting season within 1 hour of Grand Rapids and 100% on state land grouse get pointed mater of fact I have only killed two that where not pointed this year yes I have shot at wild flushed birds but they did not go in the game bag. So I guess the birds down here are a lot dumber then the tip of the mitt?
Nick
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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> Take it from I guy who spends most of my hunting season within 1 hour of Grand Rapids and 100% on state land grouse get pointed mater of fact I have only killed two that where not pointed this year yes I have shot at wild flushed birds but they did not go in the game bag. So I guess the birds down here are a lot dumber then the tip of the mitt?
> Nick
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do the all fly straight up and away from you at a slower speed too?


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Duece22 said:


> Do the all fly straight up and away from you at a slower speed too?
> 
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


They fly very slow due to there size you know they have to be huge and stinky for a german dog to find them 
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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Good point Nick

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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

N M Mechanical said:


> They fly very slow due to there size you know they have to be huge and stinky for a german dog to find them
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Huge, stinky and slow? Maybe they think they've found another German dog! 

KW


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## Grouse Seeker (Nov 27, 2010)

What I find interesting about CBK&#8217;s is they&#8217;re adaptable and find a way to kill birds on every hunt with their preferred bird dog. The CBK doesn&#8217;t give up and rarely misses the shot when an opportunity presents itself. I am guessing when a human CBK and a dog with the same CBK mentality are teamed up, plenty of limits are taken in a short amount of time.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Linda G. said:


> Jay, you said, "Good grouse dogs learn how to handle running birds and good grouse gunners know how to approach the dog to pinch the running bird and get it killed."
> 
> Please explain how you do this on a bird 30 yards away from the dog that then runs another 60-80 yards further away, then flushes...and you're 100 yards on the OTHER side of the dog...how should the dog handle said running bird and how it there until you get there?
> 
> Even if you run at an Olympian pace, which is absolutely impossible even for a 12 year old in normal grouse cover, you're still going to be a couple of minutes getting there...in the meantime, the bird just feels trapped and waits for you to get within gun range, or what??


Linda:

Sorry for the late reply, just returned from a day of grouse hunting. If the bird continues to run away from the dog as I am on my way to the point, the dog self-relocates on the running bird and just keeps in essence moving with it until it gets into a secure piece of cover and sits. 

If I see this deadly dance from a distance I take an angle on the direction I see the whole thing heading an cut it off at the pass. I do this all the time and some of these protracted trail and relocation scenarios cover a 100 yards or more until the bird gets to a place it will stick. And yes when I am putting the pinch on a running grouse I am going through the woods at a high rate of speed.

Is that to say that I and the dog can corral every bird? Of course not but a bunch more got pointed flushed and shot today. 

If you are having a high percentage of birds that flush way out ahead of the dog either the dog is never really getting the bird handled and stuck or something is out of whack with how you are approaching the dog to flush.

If you really want to learn about this I'd suggest getting in contact with Tom Prawdzik. He seems to know how to corral your spooky MI grouse and get them shot hunting over setters.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike McDonald said:


> Jay, Have you hunted with Jerry's dog Ox? If so what do you think? mac
> 
> Linda, I'm not going to speak for Jay. We handle our birds by out looping in front of the dog's point 30 or so yards and pushing back toward the dog. If we get to about 10 yrds without a flush we release the dog if it holds we move in closer. If it moves forward we out loop again somewhat farther and start to look for the cover break that will stop the bird. mac


Mac:

I have not hunted with Ox. Jerry has kept me posted on him and he sounds like a real good young grouse dog. I trust Jerry's evaluation on that.

Ox is the male I tried to breed Meg to this past Spring. So, I guess that tells you what I think. 

That said if I had a female that was not related to Meg and was planning on breeding I would go to Meg's brother who is in River Falls, WI.

Rick plans to breed his Jenny this next Spring. She is a litter sister to the young female dog Dave Prawdzik has. I am hoping he breeds to Meg's brother. If he does I may very well try to take a pup.

Jay


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

Mike McDonald said:


> Hunted Gladwin area last week. One dog beeper run/point other dog bell and point beeper. Moved 28 different grouse. We walked up 5 or 6, the rest were pointed. Dogs didn't bump any. Several birds moved a significant distance before we pinned them, one at least 125 yrds but did eventually hold. They may run a little further that they used to but still stick most of the time. mac


22 grouse in a row pointed, none-bumped, pinned and flushed by hunter. That is some impressive man / dog work.


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

Jay Johnson said:


> Linda:
> 
> Sorry for the late reply, just returned from a day of grouse hunting. If the bird continues to run away from the dog as I am on my way to the point, the dog self-relocates on the running bird and just keeps in essence moving with it until it gets into a secure piece of cover and sits.
> 
> ...


Jay, how wide of the dog do you stay? I am a self taught grouse hunter and have never hunted with anyone who is really good at this. It became evident to me early on this was they way 1 hunter and 1 dog would have to do it. I am still in the learning stages of how to do this.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Double Gun said:


> Jay, how wide of the dog do you stay? I am a self taught grouse hunter and have never hunted with anyone who is really good at this. It became evident to me early on this was they way 1 hunter and 1 dog would have to do it. I am still in the learning stages of how to do this.


This depends on the cover. It takes some trial and error
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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

wirehair said:


> 22 grouse in a row pointed, none-bumped, pinned and flushed by hunter. That is some impressive man / dog work.


Hunting with Prawdzicks. mac


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay, are Jenny and Meg related? If so how? Tom P is bringing up Sadie to x ray her pelvis today. If everything is good plan to breed her to my dog Reed next spring. Dave says Reed reminds him of Lance, Tom's dog Kate's brother. I am planning on breeding one or possibly both of my females in the spring. Has the male you referenced had it's hips evaluated? mac


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike McDonald said:


> Jay, are Jenny and Meg related? If so how? Tom P is bringing up Sadie to x ray her pelvis today. If everything is good plan to breed her to my dog Reed next spring. Dave says Reed reminds him of Lance, Tom's dog Kate's brother. I am planning on breeding one or possibly both of my females in the spring. Has the male you referenced had it's hips evaluated? mac


Mac:

No Jenny and Meg are related but not closely. 

My Meg is by Jerry Kolter's male Blue Chief. Chief was a pure FT setter in terms of breeding. Meg's dam was a great grouse gun dog whose sire was Tom Parwdziks "Bud" and whose dam was Sally Downers Wicksall Belle.

Rick's Jenny and Dave's Sadie are sired by a 2x Grouse Field Trial Champion named Rocky's Magic Belboa. He is a dog strong in Long Gone grouse trial dog breeding.

Her Dam is Ricks Katie. Katie is a product of a breeding by Zumbrota MN vet Jeff Smith of two gun dogs that are from previous litters Rick bred.

I don't know if the male dog that is a littermate to Meg has had his hips evaluated. 

Jay


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> Hunting with Prawdzicks. mac


Don't let MacDiesel fool you, his program is pretty dam good too, his dogs don't mess up either.


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

All I know is...I like grouse hunting. Birds will be birds, never ran into one that did exactly the same things twice...and if he did, he wasn't around for a third try.

As far as dogs holding birds...I'm going to say what I usually say..."Dogs don't hold birds...cover does". Marginal cover produces marginal dog work, and so on.

Bill, maybe, your friend, even though fit as a fiddle, is walking easier covers. I went deep into the woods last weekend to find birds, real deep. It was funny, if you looked at a map, picked a spot that was five hundred yards from any other trail or road...you found birds.

And, to those that think older people are bigger complainers than others or Bill is, especially Bill (boz03)...is wacky in the head and pretty disrespectful. I hear twice as much complaining from this younger generation nowadays.

Brian.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Unregistered4 said:


> ...to those that think older people are bigger complainers than others or Bill is, especially Bill (boz03)...is wacky in the head and pretty disrespectful. I hear twice as much complaining from this younger generation nowadays.


Generally speaking, you're probably right. My generation and younger... we've got this entitlement complex. Something like this:

[youtube]TRTkCHE1sS4[/youtube]​
I guess what I was getting at was the older generation's pining away for days of yore. I'm sure the hunting used to be better than it is today. Like I said, I get to hear about it from like 50 guys at every RGS dinner and banquet:

"My... yer a young'n. Surprised you have any interest in chasin' grouses. Used to be we'd spit and knock down a limit. Before the end of your days they'll all be extinct!"

We get it. There used to be more birds. It used to be easier for you. Now you can get over it and hunt (and in many cases do very well for yourself), or you can give up on the sport. Me, I'm going to have a good time out in the woods with my rangy bell-wearing pointy dogs.

I apologize if I painted all... er, MATURE grouse hunters with that brush. As I said to Linda, I'm sure there are plenty of them who could still teach a young whipper-snapper like myself a thing or two about grouse hunting!

KW


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

Steelheadfred said:


> Don't let MacDiesel fool you, his program is pretty dam good too, his dogs don't mess up either.


I need to concentrate more on my technique. I think the dog is a whole lot better than me. :lol:


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## boz03 (Jun 12, 2004)

You guys are correct in that he hunts older past prime areas, ground is mostly barren, but the covers still produce.

K9, you are probably right about us old guys. Most have quit, but some of us are still hanging on. I have hunted all the birds of North America except mountain quail and ptarmigan, so I have had a good career.

I could walk good up until 2 years ago, when I contacted cancer. Still taking chemos which make me anemic. In fact, at age 75, I am training a pup, so guess that makes me an optimist. 

My pup is of Gun Roven stock, meaning he has wheels. In fact the lights just came on last weekend, got 4 birds over him. 

My schedule during hunting season is take chemo on Wed, bed all day Thurs, then ride 3/4 hours Fri (with a short hunt),then hunt Sat, Sun, Mon and go back home.

Thanks for the discussion, it has been enlightening. Bill


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

boz03 said:


> You guys are correct in that he hunts older past prime areas, ground is mostly barren, but the covers still produce.
> 
> K9, you are probably right about us old guys. Most have quit, but some of us are still hanging on. I have hunted all the birds of North America except mountain quail and ptarmigan, so I have had a good career.
> 
> ...


Good luck and well wishes with the cancer Bill! Keep after em everyday you can!
Ric


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

None of you are saying anything at all that I didn't learn 25 years ago, believe me. Hunt with me, you'd know that. 

My point in this thread is the lofty assertations made by some, or those that are untyped but easy to read between the lines, that you don't have birds that run to the point of flushing out of sight and perhaps out of hearing that you and your dog can't pin down-ever. 

That can be very disconcerting, and discouraging to a newer hunter working a newer dog-and there's a lot of them on this board. In fact, I'll bet most of the upland hunters on this board have been out there less than 10 years. 

We all know that you're not hunting birds that are any different from any of the birds I hunt or any of the birds that these new hunters are encountering, although I do believe that many of the birds are a different cup of tea than the birds of 25 years ago-both woodcock and grouse. Many of the birds we hunt today are survivors of the bird wars that have learned the rules of survival...the hard way...simply because of the numbers of people and dogs they've come into contact with that birds 25 years ago did not have to deal with. 

And we all know that you, as well as me and everyone I know, have birds that often escape us without a shot. You would be something superhuman if you didn't. 

But you wouldn't know that from reading the posts on this board, which I learned a long time ago to take with a big block of salt...all the time. 

And despite their stellar breeding, training, and birds shot over them, I don't think very many of the dogs we have are any better, or worse, than anybody else's...you would never know that, from reading this forum. 

And I thought it was insulting to Bill, and all of the mature hunters on this forum, to read the inference that birds get away from us some times is because we are too old to keep up with them. 

There is a niche of hunters on this board that would lead you to believe that if you aren't hunting with a big moving Lab, which I did for 14 years, or a Prawdzik-bred dog, which I owned one of for 14 years, or if you're of a "mature" age, or female (it's always there, just never admitted to) that you don't know what you're doing and should defer to the "experts" on this board that do. 

Then there's those who purport never to allow their dogs near woodcock, as if woodcock are somehow "lesser" birds. I could go on, there's more I could point out, but I have to go to work.

Give me a break.


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

boz03 said:


> My schedule during hunting season is take chemo on Wed, bed all day Thurs, then ride 3/4 hours Fri (with a short hunt),then hunt Sat, Sun, Mon and go back home.


All the best of luck with this, Bill. After talking to you at Wood and Water Weekend, and finding out that your feet bent ferns in many of the same coverts as me, years ago, has made them so much more special and meaningful. Sometimes I just stop, light a cigar, and wonder what it looked like when you were there standing on those ridges, what the bird numbers were like and how many more years you and I will be doing this...and if anyone will stop and wonder such things about us older hunters someday? I always tell people, well anyone that will listen to me, that you are the Ernie Harwell of the uplands, sweet southern draw, combined with the manners and thoughtfulness of a thousand saint. You are the real deal, period.

All the best my friend,

Brian.


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## D-squared (Dec 8, 2010)

boz03 said:


> You guys are correct in that he hunts older past prime areas, ground is mostly barren, but the covers still produce.
> 
> K9, you are probably right about us old guys. Most have quit, but some of us are still hanging on. I have hunted all the birds of North America except mountain quail and ptarmigan, so I have had a good career.
> 
> ...


 
Boz03 ,good luck in your the recovery and your hunting trips
Look out Fri, Sat, Sun 

Don


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I guess we, and all the grouse we eat are full of it. When I cant do it any more ill tip my cap and smile st those that still can, the difference Linda is that I can say I did do it, csan you? Cause 12 birds is a nice weekend, not a nice season, show some respect.

Best of Luck Bill, give cancer hell.

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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> I guess we, and all the grouse we eat are full of it. When I cant do it any more ill tip my cap and smile st those that still can, the difference Linda is that I can say I did do it, csan you? Cause 12 birds is a nice weekend, not a nice season, show some respect.
> 
> Best of Luck Bill, give cancer hell.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


12 birds is 2 over your possession limit.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Linda G. said:


> None of you are saying anything at all that I didn't learn 25 years ago, believe me. Hunt with me, you'd know that.
> 
> My point in this thread is the lofty assertations made by some, or those that are untyped but easy to read between the lines, that you don't have birds that run to the point of flushing out of sight and perhaps out of hearing that you and your dog can't pin down-ever.
> 
> ...


Linda:

My hunting partner and I are 62 and 51 years of age. Combined we have been chasing grouse with english setters for close to 60 years. We both started our grouse hunting using flushing dogs. 

We hunted 10-1/2 hours this week. We hunted what is arguably the most heavily hunted piece of public grouse cover in MN. In that time we had 77 grouse flushes. 56 times our dogs worked birds, pointed, and we flushed the grouse. 20 times our shots were successful and we killed a bird. 

We would have killed more birds but my hunting partner being older is starting to slip mentally. He often forgets to reload his gun after a shot. This leads to what I have coined the
"beep...beep...beep...whirrrrr...click...S_ _ _!" sequence. Much laughter ensues after and Rick just shakes his head and smiles. 

Anyway if you consider that in many years over the past several decades we have often hunted 30 or more days and 150 or more hours in a season, we have witnessed countless thousands of interactions between dogs, grouse and gunner.

My comments on this topic are drawn from that experience. 

Your grouse might be altogether different in terms of behavior that the ones I hunt MN & WI. That's why I suggested Tom Prawdzik as a source for insight into how grouse behavior when pressured by dog and gun has changed over the years in MI. 

He would surely be a great source for this type of information as he is a great grouse hunter, meticulous record keeper, and keen observer. 

Good hunting,

Jay


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> 12 birds is 2 over your possession limit.


Nothing beats fresh grouse grilled in the woods 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> Linda:
> 
> My hunting partner and I are 62 and 51 years of age. Combined we have been chasing grouse with english setters for close to 60 years. We both started our grouse hunting using flushing dogs.
> 
> ...


Very well said Jay. You can learn something from a lot of people if you "want" to. 

RH



_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

N M Mechanical said:


> Nothing beats fresh grouse grilled in the woods
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fair enough


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> I guess we, and all the grouse we eat are full of it. When I cant do it any more ill tip my cap and smile st those that still can, the difference Linda is that I can say I did do it, csan you? Cause 12 birds is a nice weekend, not a nice season, show some respect.
> 
> Best of Luck Bill, give cancer hell.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I used to read these post and thought the ones that wrote them where full of it because I thought seeing 50 grouse a year was a great year and I thought my dogs where good because they pointed a pile of woodcock then I went to dog trials and spoke to these same people who post here and realized I had to step my program up big time now I will see in a good day what I thought was a great season and realized that grouse do get "pinned" if the dog gunner team work it right. Yes some birds escape that is given but if at the end of the day more are escaping then being worked correctly I will be looking at what we did wrong if it was the covers the dogs or me. Most can not believe a person could kill 75+ grouse a year on public land south of the bridge but I am here to say it happens regularly by multiple people that have posted. So in short if you think all grouse run look at your program. 
Nick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Duece22 said:


> Very well said Jay. You can learn something from a lot of people if you "want" to.
> 
> RH
> 
> ...


Yes indeed. 

I have always looked to those with a consistent history of being more effective than I am for ways to improve my own efficiency afield.

The best couple weeks for grouse killing are upon us. 

Time for less words and more action. 

Here is wishing you; rain at night, days of cool temps, partly cloudy skies, and light winds!


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> Yes indeed.
> 
> I have always looked to those with a consistent history of being more effective than I am for ways to improve my own efficiency afield.
> 
> ...


Amen, and best wishes to you as well. With the next eight days off I can only hope for the conditions you mention above to put a cap on our early season. Good luck Jay and please keep sharing your knowledge and experiences. 

RH 


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Linda G. said:


> None of you are saying anything at all that I didn't learn 25 years ago, believe me. Hunt with me, you'd know that.
> 
> My point in this thread is the lofty assertations made by some, or those that are untyped but easy to read between the lines, that you don't have birds that run to the point of flushing out of sight and perhaps out of hearing that you and your dog can't pin down-ever.


I don't think anyone has said there are no birds that escape us without a shot opportunity but if there is a trend of birds that do this to you it is most likely the dog the cover or the hunter that is causing this consistent issue. As you have heard from many in this thread there are people that don't seem to have this issue or a problem getting birds pinned and shooting opportunities even when hunting highly pressured areas. 



Linda G. said:


> That can be very disconcerting, and discouraging to a newer hunter working a newer dog-and there's a lot of them on this board. In fact, I'll bet most of the upland hunters on this board have been out there less than 10 years.


You are probably right that there are a lot of people with little experience on this board but I would be willing to venture a guess that most of them gain a lot of information and knowledge by reading the posts that many of the more experienced hunters share. You can learn something from everyone and with your ability to read between the lines it should be ahead of the game. 



Linda G. said:


> We all know that you're not hunting birds that are any different from any of the birds I hunt or any of the birds that these new hunters are encountering, although I do believe that many of the birds are a different cup of tea than the birds of 25 years ago-both woodcock and grouse. Many of the birds we hunt today are survivors of the bird wars that have learned the rules of survival...the hard way...simply because of the numbers of people and dogs they've come into contact with that birds 25 years ago did not have to deal with.


You might be right that our birds see a few more hunters these days but lets be honest the grouse has not changed in its genetics in 25 years. If you want dumb birds that are easy for the dog to work and never out smart you go to Canada and hunt the ruffs up there that rarely see a person or a dog. Those might not run on you so much. 

Part of the fun is the challenge of how a bird can act differently and unexpectedly at any given time. 



Linda G. said:


> And we all know that you, as well as me and everyone I know, have birds that often escape us without a shot. You would be something superhuman if you didn't.


You are correct but a good dog, good cover and a good hunter can turn the odds in the favor of the gunner. I also prefer to focus more on the ones we can get to hang around not the ones that leave early. 




Linda G. said:


> And despite their stellar breeding, training, and birds shot over them, I don't think very many of the dogs we have are any better, or worse, than anybody else's...you would never know that, from reading this forum.


Why do some dogs win trials and others don't? Do days in the field matter? Bird contacts? Genetics? 

It sounds as if you believe they don't. When you buy a dog Linda what do you loom for? 



Linda G. said:


> And I thought it was insulting to Bill, and all of the mature hunters on this forum, to read the inference that birds get away from us some times is because we are too old to keep up with them.


I don't believe this is true. Some of the most effective grouse killers I know are getting up there in age. A good hunter knows how to make adjustments to there program to still be effective. Either you embrace change or get left on the sidelines. 




Linda G. said:


> There is a niche of hunters on this board that would lead you to believe that if you aren't hunting with a big moving Lab, which I did for 14 years, or a Prawdzik-bred dog, which I owned one of for 14 years, or if you're of a "mature" age, or female (it's always there, just never admitted to) that you don't know what you're doing and should defer to the "experts" on this board that do.
> 
> Then there's those who purport never to allow their dogs near woodcock, as if woodcock are somehow "lesser" birds. I could go on, there's more I could point out, but I have to go to work.
> 
> Give me a break.


I know a lot of guys that do it with other dogs than what you mentioned above. Everyone has a program that fits their hunting and cover style but I can promise you there is a reason killers stick with lines like the 
Prawdzik dogs and others that are similar. Just read some of Mac and Jays conversations. They have found something and are looking for something. In the end you have to have the triangle of the dog, the covers and the guy driving the truck. 

Pretty hard to keep any dog from encountering woodcock but some people find enough grouse in "grouse" covers that their need and desire for contacting and shooting woodcock is no longer there. 


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I hunt some high pressured areas and some no pressured areas. Guess what all birds act the same to me as the season goes on. Less cover equals spooker birds. I have gotten quite a few pointed and killed had quite a few get pointed and flush on the other side of a tree etc. I've changed my flushing approach this year and it's really paid off. I need to alter it a little more still. I also think I'd be much more successful if I hunted with another person but that just usually isn't in the cards for me.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Linda, I'm 60. I like many others have lost some hearing and vision and certainly a step. I know all have a negative affect on my current productivity. That said I'm probably a little wiser and know my system and cover better than I did when I was young. Honestly I'd trade that for youth any day. I don't begrudge the young. Many young hunters on this board are outstanding sportsman and women and I hope the future of our sport. I've hunted with several and they are as successful as they say they are. Rather than begrudging them I chose to support them. I hope you enjoy the rest of the early season. macvet51


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

BTW Linda woodcock are lesser birds than grouse. If they were equal you'd see pics with 3 woodcock and 3 grouse not 3 woodcock no grouse


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> Linda, I'm 60. macvet51


 :yikes: :yikes: :tdo12: :yikes: :yikes:


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

Just another days work of POS big running setters owned by 45 and 55 yo owners. Birds were on publc land in MI. Just another day at the office. All were shot with 28g....barely enough gun. 

What do I know about grouse? Prolly not much. whatever. I'll defer to Linda when asking grouse questions. I've had this discussion with her for nearly 10 years. I can only say it happens all day every day. Sure dogs and hunters make mistakes, but I'll take my chances. 

And just so you don't think we are snotty grouse killers, there are a dozen WC on the table in front of the truck.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

now, wouldn't that be one of Kwernet or Fritz's or somebody's "hero shots"?

LOL

My point has been made, exactly. 

I never said that I know anything more about grouse than anybody else on this board, what I objected to was exactly the attitude you are now displaying vividly...and how that intimidates new and young hunters. 

And a "snotty grouse killer" would apply to many of those people...you said it, I didn't...

For instance, "woodcock are lesser birds than grouse. If they were equal you'd see pics with 3 woodcock and 3 grouse not 3 woodcock no grouse"

Why, Dr. Mac? Because woodcock are easier to shoot?

Oh, brother...

Glad you had a good day of hunting, Dave. So did I...but the woodcock finally appear to be gone from my covers. Put my last one up Thursday. 

But since then, there's been a few grouse to keep me happy...LOL


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

We had a tuff day today too Dave, this was behind big going labs, hell one bird ran 200 yards down a hedge, we shot it at the end when it ran out of cover..it was a windy warm public land day, birds held well enough to shoot em in the three spots we hunted, never worked two of em before.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

All those grouse and woodies shot. I'm surprised you guys even like the taste anymore by the end of the season. 

Remember, less than 6 and 10 in the freezer you are still legal to hunt them and only 6 and 10 in the freezer once the season ends boys and girls.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Unregistered4 said:


> I will...
> 
> Because, while at a covert of mine this season, I had a "certain some one" that was hunting with me...who pulled out a big old Kentucky Fried Chicken leg and ate it right on the tailgate of his truck...while we were grouse hunting! I'd had my back to him, loading up dogs, when I turned around and saw this "certain some one" doing the unthinkable...eating freak'n chicken on a freak'n grouse hunt.
> 
> ...


I vote for banning from the Summit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

We've been banned from the "Club" so ....


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Unregistered4 said:


> I will...
> 
> Because, while at a covert of mine this season, I had a "certain some one" that was hunting with me...who pulled out a big old Kentucky Fried Chicken leg and ate it right on the tailgate of his truck...while we were grouse hunting! I'd had my back to him, loading up dogs, when I turned around and saw this "certain some one" doing the unthinkable...eating freak'n chicken on a freak'n grouse hunt.
> 
> ...


 
It was a ploy to try and convince you he was not "shooting out" "your covers."


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Brian I would feel safe giving him my gps and map and the covers would still be safe 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> We've been banned from the "Club" so ....


I have never been one for being told what not to do so Dec. 1st
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> I have never been one for being told what not to do so Dec. 1st
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I say Dec. 1st..."we crash the gate, doing 98, and let the mother's (dogs) roll!"

And, Fritz...you've seen him in action with a shotgun...so there's no risk of that. Plus, my birds are well trained...lol

Brian.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Just a FYI for you trespassers.........a dead body was found on club property last Sunday, I'm just sayin'.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.






















*Disclaimer: I know this is a serious matter and regret joking of it, my thoughts and condolences go out to those of the deceased.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Nope does not stop me I work downtown
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> a dead body was found on club property last Sunday


Getting a jump start on the deer gun season were ya. Cause, I've seen you shot at grouse...so I know it wasn't one of their "dead bodies".

So...



> Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


Right back at ya.

Plus, you've seen our lives...so, you're well aware of the fact...that Nick an I have nothing to live for and aren't afraid of anyth...eeerrr...much.

Brian.



> *Disclaimer: I know this is a serious matter and regret joking of it, my thoughts and condolences go out to those of the deceased.


PS...me too, I thought you were joking.


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