# Interesting PA news



## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

Even though I'm not for MANDITORY antler point restrictions on a STATEWIDE basis ( although we already have them with the 3" rule ), I still think it is to bad that people would not give Mr. Alt a fair chance. He didn't even make it long enough for anybody to see if he was right. It only takes one year of compliance with these rules to see dramaticly improved results in the deer herd and the hunting (or to see if he was wrong). I think if they would have given him and his philosophy a chance I think a lot of the people that initially chastized him would have changed thier tune ( and later even claimed to have supported him in the beginning    ! ). To bad for Mr. Alt and the people of PA.


P.S. Personally I would like to see these type of restrictions on some of Michigans state game area's. I think we could work to satisfy both crowds. After all it's everybodies public land, so why not try and accomidate as many people as possible ( can't please everybody ) with some good, sound, proven management?


P.P.S. I think after a few short years more area's would have to be made this way because many more people would support it after they seen the results in these area's. It would simply become to crowded in these area's, because "everybody want's to hunt there".


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I don't see why we can't shoot hen pheasants or turkey. I think I'll start. To each his own, right?


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> but the minority should not tell the majority what is in their best interest.


Ducky, Just interested ~ If a 51% of hunters in a selected were for AR's would you still stand by that statement?

In my opinion, It shouldn't make hardly any difference what the majority of hunters think. I think the management of a deer herd should be based on sound scientific principles. I think it is clear that although most want some changes in managment, AR's are as popular as other methods. I believe AR's are the quickest method to get from point A to point B, but I respect those differing opinions and hope we all can all work together on those things we agree with.

Neal


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## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

That's right Bob. After all, the most important thing is to get one. Right? I just want some meat! Darn turkeys just crap all over the yard anyway's. 

Sorry just ducky. I couldn't help the sarcasm. I don't do it often. I hope you traditional guy's will forgive me.


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

limited season - okay
limited tags - okay
limited weapons - okay
limited hours - okay
limited age - okay
limited sex - okay
limited techniques - okay
limited antlers - NO FREEKIN WAY, STOP REGULATING MY HUNTING !!!!


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Once again, in his authentic frontier gibberish, Johnnysmallgame sums it up fast and sweet.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Neal,
What I've said all along is I'm opposed to forcing people to follow a regulation, when the majority are not in favor of it. If the recent QDM proposal for my hunting area had passed, I wouldn't have been happy, but I would have either followed the new point restrictions, or sold the property and found somewhere else to hunt. Since it failed, I don't have to make that decision. 

Like you, I respect everyone's opinion here. We all have a right to that, and also as I said before, there is no right answer for everyone. The health of the deer herd should be the goal of us all, not just aquiring some fine young tenderloins. But I disagree, sometimes very emotionally, that a young spike or forkhorn is not a "healthy" deer, as some of you have intimated. But let's don't open that can of worms again. 

And regarding the sarcasm guys, that's fine. I can take it. At least you're tone is not a personal attack. But my philosophy applies to shooting hen pheasants, or hen turkeys too.......the majority of the people don't want that, so we don't do it.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Majority opinion has nothing to do with shooting hens. Biologists are who decide that. They decide duck limits too, as they should. And biologists, like Gary Alt, should decide better deer regulations. The majority, in most places, is for better deer hunting. But to change the regs by vote, they've made it so you need a super majority, 66%, instead of a simply majority, 51%.


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## Size Matters (Apr 1, 2003)

just ducky - Could you answer Neals question please.(You know the one about percentages). Thanks.

And we do hunt hen turkeys in the fall. 

And they used to shoot hen pheasants, I'll bet when they told them old timers that they could no longer shoot hens they ask that biologist just how they were suposed to tell the difference between those birds when they were flying. 

Things change, its just some people dont want too.

I hope Dr. Gary Alt does come here.


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## Size Matters (Apr 1, 2003)

Luck is preporation and oppertunity 
I prepare and make good on my oppertunities.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Size Matters, we don't prepare to fail, we fail to prepare.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> limited age - okay


How do you propose we establish a "limited age" without 



> limited antlers


 ?????????



> biologists, like Gary Alt, should decide better deer regulations.


Not a TV personality appointed to the NRC deciding what's best for the deer herd based on his observations over a bait pile in the U.P and what his buddies think, what a crock............


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2003)

To increase the chances at seeing bigger and more mature bucks would be great, it may take a couple years but sure wouldn't mind seeing 2,3, 4 year old bucks a little more often. 

IMHO, it would be completely harmless to try a different style of management for a few years. Why do people need to label sportsmen who enjoy increasing there chances at "seeing" bigger bucks trophy hunters. I'd say theres a pretty good chance your not being fair if you can honestly say you don't want to increase your chances at see mature bucks while hunting..


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Welcome, Pam, and you are make a very good point. It may be difficult, though, to convince a hunter whose self-worth is wrapped up in his prospects of killing a forkhorn (Sparky the Wonderbuck) each season that he wouldn't be "harmed" by being more selective or even having to take a doe.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Now there's buzz on the PA Bowsite that Alt has rescinded his resignation. Allegedly this comes from the PGC its ownself.

Who's got the scoop?


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2003)

fl, I do what your saying. Michigan has unlimited potential, we could easly be the talk of the NW. 

Its not that hard to understand, we could have the best of both worlds. With the right tools in place we could have more than enough forkhours running around, with a greater % of mature bucks also. Some people think were taking something "away" but that couldn't be father from the truth. Its making a good situation even better, I think that where not being the unfair people hear.

Hunting in Michigan is fantastic, but the fact is you don't get the rush hear when you hear a twig snap behind you, yeah I no somepeople say that yes the rush is there. But the Rush I'm talking about is when your hunting Iowa or Nebraska and then the twig snaps, yes it could be a forkhorn, or a doe, but the "chances" are much higher it could be much, much more.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

It appears that Alt will not be leaving, at least for now. It looks like the USP (The Unified Sportsmen of PA) and Commissioner Mohr were too eager to call someone and gloat. Their negative comments about Dr. Alt and the newspaper article prompted this reply from the PA Game Commission:

Subject: Dr. Alt has not retired/resigned 

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:24:38 -0400 

From: "GM, PGCNEWS" ([email protected]) 


The Lancaster New Era story that ran on June 19, 2003, stating that Dr. Alt has retired or resigned 'amid controvery over his policies' on deer management is incorrect. With the current contract negotiations for all state employees continuing, Dr. Alt, a state employee for 26 years, was concerned that he might be losing some health benefits if he stayed employed beyond June 30. This is a situation that many of our Game Commission employees, as well as hundreds of other state employees, faced. 

However, after some consideration, and in light of the Governor's Office of Administration announcement today that a 90-day window would be granted for those employees who have not made final decisions because they would like to see the final product of the contact negotiations, Dr. Alt has reconsidered and will take advantage of this window. 

Also, Dr. Alt has said that he would very much like to stay employed with the Game Commission, but he doesn't want to stay if staying will penalize his benefits. 

Normally, it is not my practice to discuss personnel matters. However, as this particular matter has become the subject of some media coverage, I felt the need to make all employees aware of the facts. 

Thanks, Jerry Feaser 
(PA Game Commission spokesman)


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Bummer. I've already contacted a bunch of people suggesting that we snatch him up quick. Oh well, at least we still have PA to watch and then we can copy in 3-4 years.


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

Swamp Ghost,
email me, I'll be happy to explain the point I was trying to make with my last post.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Size Matters _
> *just ducky - Could you answer Neals question please.(You know the one about percentages). Thanks.
> 
> Size-
> ...


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

johnny, the question was a simple one and if you can't/won't or are unable/unwilling to answer it, that's fine. 

If can't/won't or are unable/unwilling to make your point on a public forum then I am certain I wouldn't want to have it explained by email.

Thanks for the kind offer.

What is with everyone wanting to do things in secret (by email or pm)? Do they not want thier true feelings or ideas exposed? 

Sometimes I wonder.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

just ducky,

The issue is not that,


> there are some that want big bucks, and some that are happy with any buck


but............



> It has everything to do with trying to stop "hunters" harvesting 70% of the buck population every fall and somehow only managing to kill 20% of the doe population.


That's the bottomline...........


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Swamp Ghost, your last post really sums it up, from my perspective. 

Best post on this thread! Number two goes to that rascally Size Matters, with his sage speculation that hunters b*tched when they couldn't take hen pheasants anymore - "how are you supposed to tell when they're flying so fast", or whatever.


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

Swamp Ghost,
Limited age was in reference to the hunter.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

See johnny, that wasn't as hard as you thought. 

In all seriousness the limitations that you said would be "okay" for yourself, wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that none of these "limitations" effect you, would it?

One could could argue that by having these limitations that "tens of thousands" of future and perspective hunters are being held back from joining our ranks...............

Nice excuse, ain't it?


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## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

Something that I wanted to mention here, is that I find it interesting most newcomers to deer hunting that I know have exspressed suprise that we as hunters do not let these "little" bucks "grow up" before shooting them, and this has been the case with EVERY woman (and an important segment of our population to bring into the sport I believe) I have met that has shown an interest in deer hunting. Including my girlfriend. She still wants to let small racked bucks walk even though where we hunt she know's someone else will likely shoot it and she will not see a bigger buck. It just dosen't make a lot of sense to her. This despite the fact that she has not got a deer yet. 

I wonder. Are we so set in our way's that we can not see what's best and perhaps even should be considerd common sense?


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Interesting point, Deerslayer. Now that you mention it, I've noticed the exact same thing - that people new to the deer hunting scene seem to more easily grasp the value of passing on juvenile bucks than do the grizzled veterans.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

For all you guys out there that say...

Don't shove it down my throat

I Have a right to choose my way

AR's aren't for public land

It's just about big bucks

Etc., Etc., .........

Go hunt in PA and see what it's like for yourself before you make judgements about management methods you have absolutely no experience with. It is a pure joy to hunt in PA, and again I'd give up my entire 2 weeks of gun season in MI to hunt opening day in PA. There are still a few negative people in PA, but their numbers are small, and getting smaller with experience. That's leadership and we drastically need it in MI. 

Until you try it, and experience it, don't knock it. I'm looking forward to, and excited about my 11th year this year hunting in PA. I am looking forward to a day, hopefully in my lifetime, that I can say the same for hunting in MI again.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Next thing you know, the fascists will want to limit how much bait we can put out and when we can hunt.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Swamp Ghost-
I agree wholeheartedly with shooting more does. We take our fair share in my area. We even hunt the late season some and take a few then. But I know there are those that still don't shoot many, if any, does.

Many of the messages on this thread indicate a concern over the health of the herd, and that's great. But I'm more concerned over the "health" of the herd of hunters. No kidding guys and gas. We need to recruit young and new hunters to populate the pool of hunters. To me, this means get the kids away from the damn computers and get them outdoors. If the state ever goes to AP restriction on a wide scale basis, I certainly hope there are exceptions for young hunters, the elderly, and first timers (such as some women) that are trying to learn hunting. I heard Ted Nugent say years ago that we hunters need to "bury the hatchet" and stop fighting each other, because if we don't the anti's will take it all. Not that I agree with Ted a lot, but he had a good point here.

So how about instead of the informational sessions that have been held around the state by the QDM supporters, how about a forum sponsored by some group who is truly impartial to the whole concept. I attended one of the previous QDM sessions, and my impression (only my impression) was it was anything but impartial. What we need is a forum where we can all discuss the issues that we have discussed on this site, but do it in a constructive, non-confrontational format. We need to cooperate on issues such as the health of the herd and the buck to doe ratio, as well as how to recruit more hunters into the fold. There are a lot of posts on this site about the true biological reasons for QDM, and getting the opinion of Biologists who are "experts", such as Mr. Alt. Well I'm positive that there are some Biologists or experts of some type who have some concern with Mr. Alt's opinions. My point is that we need to hear both sides in a constructive forum, not a shouting match. I think a meeting like this would be a step in the right direction. And until we get all the cards on the table, we'll never agree on anything. Maybe the DNR could organize something like this.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I haven't talked to a Michigan biologist yet who doesn't like antler guidelines. But, their concern is hunter outcry, just like we see here. They are working towards antler guidelines. After a couple years of proof in PA, other states will fall into line. Unfortunately, with our hunting culture here, we'll probably be the last holdout.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

North Jeff,
I have relatives in PA, and hunted there about 20 years ago. The area that I hunted is the mountains of northcentral PA (big woods!). It's very much like some of the remote areas of the UP. My relatives still hunt a lot, and they actually shoot more does because the remoteness of the area, and the vast forest, makes finding a good buck difficult. Bowhunting in that part of the state is a real challenge. I know you said in an earlier post that you hunt the Allegheny Res. area, and I've never hunted that area, but I can tell you the northcentral part of the state (Tioga/Bradford Co's) has vast amounts of public land, with big, big woods, that in my opinion won't grow a lot of huge bucks. The food base is just not there. Again, much like some of the big woods in the UP. They shoot some bucks, but rarely shoot, or see, one that is over 6 or 7 pts. If they do, it's an old deer. So as many have said on this thread, you have to take into account the ability of the area to grow large bucks, and the carrying capacity of the area. Would the UP ever be able to grow large bucks on a large-scale basis? In general I would think not due again to the lack of good farming and the rough winters. But that's just my opinion.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

The main limit to a buck being able to produce a nice set of antlers is not genetics, food supply, or soil content. It's age.

Give a buck 4-5 years to mature and he will be impressive, anywhere in the country.

Granted having a protien rich diet and rich soil will speed and aid in the process of adding mass, tines, etc. Unless that buck makes is past his 1.5 year old mark, you'll never know.


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## steveh27 (Oct 23, 2000)

I was raised north of Pittsburgh, started deer hunting there in high school(1967-8), and have been deer hunting for the past 6 years in Greene county, PA ( the southwestern most county).

I am happy to be part of their AR experiment, but I have heard from others who are not. One PA acquantance trash talks against Alt & AR and says most PA hunters just want any buck. I do not know how widespread his feelings are. I had to pass on 3 four pts opening day. A youth hunter on the adjoining land shot a spike. I guess I do not have a problem with that. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few years & if the state will resist dropping AR due to some vocal protests.

I like taking a big buck, but I also like taking a 4 pointer. I agree we have to get our buck to doe ratio back in line. I think we should allow only 1 buck per hunter per year, no matter how taken. It's been sad hearing some hunters talk about taking numbers of bucks like they were catching fish. I also believe we should outlaw all baiting like PA.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Just Ducky,

The UP has far more potential than Central and Northern PA where I hunt.

Most 3.5 year olds around here will be close to 200#'s field dressed. In PA, there about 125 to 130-at least in the mountains where I hunt. Rack sizes are similar in the first 2 to 3 years, with much more potential on the high side in the UP with the older ages.

Prior to 1980(and baiting-coincidently), Alger, Marquette, Delta, and Scholcraft county had more CBM bucks than all of the other counties combined in the state. The old owner of our property shot a buck that scored 174 in 1984. And there are many bucks in the high 100's in houses and photos that I've seen in the area, that were never entered, or were eaten by mice in woodsheds. 7 years ago my neighbor shot a 3.5 year old that dressed 213, and scored 139.

In PA we've over 50% success for the past 10 years, and higher in the past 5 years, with our best year last year, with 7 AR bucks for the 10 hunters that stayed at least 2 days. We had a 118 scored 3.5 year old as well. We only hunt on large, public tracts of land, with sometimes 20+ cars parked in the areas we hunt, which spans about 6x15 miles or so. Most of our bucks in PA are shot between 10 and 3:00.

It's not about potential score of the animal, but the quality of the hunt, and PA wins hands down. 

I trully wish all of you guys would have the opportunity to experience it in PA. An absolute joy. I think more than a few of you would change your mind about AR's, or even baiting for that matter. A trully great hunt, and we all deserve to have better here in MI.

MI used to be the envy of the country for wildlife management and white-tailed deer hunting, now it's one of the jokes.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

NorthJeff-
Sounds like a great time. I know hunting up in the mountains in Central PA is really a challenge. Definitely different than the Michigan farm country where I do most of my hunting. And yes, my experience was the deer there were smaller, whether because of genetics, lack of food source, or whatever. I do know that you could hunt for days up in that part of the state and hardly ever run into another hunter......just to big of an area. So I don't think hunting pressure takes all of the young ones out there.

It's great that you can have that good of a time on public land. Definitely should be looked at closer.


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## steveh27 (Oct 23, 2000)

NorthJeff,

I always thought the northcentral Pa area was a lot like the northern LP. It was where most of the hunters went with the most public land, where most deer were taken and most of them were small. You have more first hand experience there than me, but being from western PA that was what we thought.

PA is fun, but all is not ideal. There are looser anti-tresspassing laws and road hunting has been allowed in the area I'm currently hunting. Also, no semiautos are allowed.

It is refreshing to see PA try new things like AR. They also are into their third year of running concurrent doe & buck seasons(like MI). Opening week used to be for bucks only. Doe season was a few weeks(?) later and for only a few days.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

steveh27-
Yeah when I hunted there in the 80's they had that weird doe season a week or so after the buck season. Always seemed kind of strange? Good to hear that they've changed that anyway.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

It's actually kind of nice in a different way as well. Before, in PA, guys were winging bullets in all directions at the site of an antler, and when the does were included, 2001 was an especially bad year with many multiple shots at most any moving deer. 

Now, guys have to be very careful of what they shoot. You have to make sure that doe you are about to take is not a small spike, or 4 point for that matter. I feel their is much less shooting going on, and it is now a much safer hunt because your target has to be fully identified-does it meet the AR's, or is it really a doe?

I'm not saying the hunting is a picnic, with bucks jumping in your laps(although I did shoot the 6th buck I saw last year-by 10:00 in the morning!), but your efforts are rewarded. It's real hard, to hunt hard, with long hours, do a little homework ahead of time, and not get a legal buck. Guys in our camp do it every year. Breakfast at 4:30, sandwiches made the night before, out before first light, and back at or after dark. No blinds to shield the weather, no bait, no ATV's....just good old fashioned sitting, stalking, stillhunting, etc..Often, in PA, the amount of your efforts are equaled with your amount of success.

By the way, or average age of camp is over 40, with a couple guys in their 20's, 3 or 4 in their 30's, and the rest 50+. Most of the "originals" have hunted at camp for over 30 years now, while participating in the harvest of around 170 bucks, marked on a topo map, and spread out within 12 miles of camp.

I used to just love it for the traditional hunting methods, hill country, traditions, and the amount of room to just explore and get away from people. Now it's become a quality hunt to boot. Can't beat that. It's trully something to get excited about.

I wish you could all experience it! Maybe someday in MI we will learn and follow. I'd rather be a leader though.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Jeff,
Forget for a minute the whole QDM/AP issue, but since the UP has a lot of remote areas, would you go to the same effort up there? I know you have the whole camp thing and tradition in PA, but it seems like if a guy was interested in getting away from other hunters, some parts of the UP would do it. I spend some time up in the central UP trout fishing in the summer, and bird hunting in September, and we have always toyed with the idea of going up in deer season some year. I have a friend who goes up Thanksgiving week each year, and loves the remoteness and the "experience". Plus he gets a nice buck about half the time to boot.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Just Ducky,
I actually hunt the same way in the UP, as I do in PA: By myself, on public land, at least 1/2 to 3/4 mile from any trail, road, or 2-track, and without bait. In the last 5 years I've had at least 1 buck to harvest on opening day of gun season, and up to 3. 

There is a difference though. In the UP, there are less deer, and many bait piles. You can have a good chance at harvesting a buck, but in the UP you spend a little more time studying people movements-of which are very predictable with current reliance on baiting, and in PA you spend a little more time studying deer movements-funnels, bedding areas, rub lines, saddles, benches, etc..

The UP is a good place to hunt, but my recommendation: Stay a minumum of 1/2 mile away from any trail,2-track, or road in heavy cover/swamp areas, and at least a mile away from any trail,2-track, or road in more open/easy walking woods such as semi-mature to mature hardwoods. Don't use bait, fixed blinds, or ribbons to mark your trail in. Hunt in large, open marshy areas with good funnels that connect heavy conifer/swamp cover with hardwoods or upland sights. Scout several funnels from an arial photo, as well as potential people movements such as trails,2-tracks, or roads, and just spend a few hours in an afternoon discovering which funnels hold the best present and PREVIOUS(most important) sign, such as rubs and scrapes.

That's the way I hunt, and although guys will sit on there bait around here for 2 weeks and see less than 5 deer to sometimes none, I've had no less than 10 bucks available in the last 5 years-just on opening day.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

NorthJeff-
You sound exactly like my friend who goes up there over Thanksgiving with how you hunt and scout. He actually had a strange run-in with a local up there a few years ago. A guy and his 20 year old son from a town up there (which will remain nameless) apparently had hunted in the same area as my friend for years, but due to the way my friend hunts (remote like you), he never ran into them. Then one day my friend is walking his way into his stand using his GPS to get there, and lo and behold he came within 100 yds or so of this kid. The kid came unglued! Said he had no right to be there, and that he had been baiting the area all summer and that these were "his deer". My friend calmly explained that it was public land, that he had hunted there for years, and that he was just passing through and not actually hunting anywhere near him. Apparently the kid got more and more worked up, almost crying, and so my friend just kept walking. It kind of spooked my friend though. At the end of the day out at camp, the guys were all sitting around getting cleaned up and making chow, and up pulls the kid and his Dad. The kid is still furious, and is practically foaming at the mouth. Mind you they're miles back in where they are camped. My friends were about to get their guns just in case things escalated. Finally the kid got back in the truck and they talked with Dad until everything calmed down. Dad tried to apologize for the kid, saying he took his hunting very seriously, and he had worked very hard to bait the deer all summer. My friends again explained their method of hunting (like yours), that they are way the hell back in away from the kids stand, and no one owns the deer. It's public land and they belong to everyone. Dad drove off never to be seen again. My friend still goes to the same area, and he's pretty much written that experience off as a random wacko out there. I'm sure similar things have happened all over the state. God knows I've run into some strange things when duck hunting too with blinds and locations.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I go as far to not use my flashlight when I approach my truck after dark for fear of someone waiting for me. I've had 1 run-in, but it turned out really well and he even helped me get a buck out, although he didn't get one(I got 2 that year). I went way out of my way to go around him, even falling in some beaver holes and getting soaked, but it all worked out. 

Most of the time I go in so much earlier, and leave so much later, they never know where I'm at anyways.

It can be a real rewarding hunt, and it's actually easier, to me, than running a bait pile. When I finally see someone for the first time in the areas I hunt, I'll probably shake their hand and give them the respect they deserve, but I'll still be very surprised.

The U.P. is still a good spot, if you can successfully hunt people, as well as deer.


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