# Poll - Shiawassee River State Game Area decoy ban



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Regarding the recently approved ban on certain types of decoys at the Shiawassee River State Game Area, I'm curious about initial feelings. Please answer the following:


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## Daisycutter (Jul 7, 2007)

Well, I have mostly stayed out of the other threads because my opinion has been pretty well represented by the majority of regular users of the area. As someone who has typically made 15 - 25 trips per year to SRSGA, last year I made only 5. I suspect my visit frequency will be back up near normal this year and a lot has to do with the ban.

Not sure if that is as clear of an answer as you are looking for, but I think it goes to the spirit of the intention of the ban. Looking forward to the season out there.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Daisycutter said:


> Well, I have mostly stayed out of the other threads because my opinion has been pretty well represented by the majority of regular users of the area. As someone who has typically made 15 - 25 trips per year to SRSGA, last year I made only 5. I suspect my visit frequency will be back up near normal this year and a lot has to do with the ban.
> 
> Not sure if that is as clear of an answer as you are looking for, but I think it goes to the spirit of the intention of the ban. Looking forward to the season out there.


Spinners have been around for quite a while, so it appears you were making 15-25 trips per year through most of their usage. Why did it suddenly impact your satisfaction last year?

I quit hunting Shiawasee 20 years ago, so I really don't care what happens there. The idea of duck bingo, just does nothing for me. Prior to last year though I don't remember half the spinner related shiawasee complaints on this board. Last year was slow throughout the whole state, so maybe spinners just magnified it at the management areas? All I'm saying is, spinners have been here for years and years now, why the huge increase in complaints just in the last year?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> ... Prior to last year though I don't remember half the spinner related shiawasee complaints on this board. Last year was slow throughout the whole state, so maybe spinners just magnified it at the management areas? All I'm saying is, spinners have been here for years and years now, why the huge increase in complaints just in the last year?


Some others will chime in too I'm sure, but IMO it's been brewing for a while now. Seems though that the "arms race" mentality has really heated up in the last couple years. Seeing more and more multiple spinner spreads, and some multiple, multiple, multiple spinners :evilsmile So I suppose that part has changed. But this idea of proposing a ban has been kicked around by the association for at least 3 years.


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## Daisycutter (Jul 7, 2007)

TSS Caddis said:


> Spinners have been around for quite a while, so it appears you were making 15-25 trips per year through most of their usage. Why did it suddenly impact your satisfaction last year?
> 
> I quit hunting Shiawasee 20 years ago, so I really don't care what happens there. The idea of duck bingo, just does nothing for me. Prior to last year though I don't remember half the spinner related shiawasee complaints on this board. Last year was slow throughout the whole state, so maybe spinners just magnified it at the management areas? All I'm saying is, spinners have been here for years and years now, why the huge increase in complaints just in the last year?


Caddis-

You are right, I was there all along with the spinner increasing in use. I remember when one spinner on a low pole would still suck em in, then the first long poles started showing up, then the arms escalation, then it was four on long poles spread across a whole zone with four hunters spread out busting ducks that hadn't even taken a look at anybody yet, then it was spreads that consisted of nothing but spinners.

Even as little as three years ago, I was still shooting good numbers of geese (almost every trip) while still using one or two spinners and a fairly normal spread. The last couple years I really started to notice a huge difference in the way the geese were acting around the fields. I only shot one goose there last year and even that one was not even thinking about decoying...used to shoot quite a few geese in groups of three or four coming right in to half a dozen goose floaters, I don't even bother setting them up any more.

As I said, in the few hunts I had there last year, there was a clear and distinguishable difference to the way ALL birds were acting as they entered the field. It would be hard to explain, or maybe even to notice, if you had not spent a fair amout of time there and were used to how birds utilized these fields. I am not some huge anti-spinner guy, nor am I a huge fan of them either. In reality I probably wish they didn't exist, as I thought I had more of an advantage over others before the use of so many mechaicals, but I will certainly recognize the benefits that they have for newer or inexperienced hunters, and their ability to produce results in the right circumstances, for those that may not have been able to achieve those results without them.

To answer your question, I think the escalation and issue has been building for years. I know the SFCHA has been talking about the potential ban for at least the last two years, if not longer that I am unaware of. I beleive that part of the ongoing escalation is the general education of the birds. Just as birds become educated to locations of refuges over a period of years, the ridiculous, unnatural appearance of multiple SWD on 12ft long poles has likely produced somewhat of a cumulative effect that has deteriorated the overall hunting experience over a period of time, culminating in a drastic enough difference to be noticed by enough people with enough influence to affect change.


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## Adam Gibbs (Jul 13, 2006)

i hunted shiawassee, i will still hunt shiawassee. im not happy with the decision. im more upset that im being told how i cant hunt on a piece of public land, when i can hunt that way on all the other pieces of public land. its the idea of being controlled. next, we wont be able to take more than 3 dozen decoys. after that, no winches. after that, you cant wear camo. see where this is going? banning things, whether its guns, decoys, or smoking, is a slippery slope.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Adam Gibbs said:


> i hunted shiawassee, i will still hunt shiawassee. im not happy with the decision. im more upset that im being told how i cant hunt on a piece of public land, when i can hunt that way on all the other pieces of public land. its the idea of being controlled. next, we wont be able to take more than 3 dozen decoys. after that, no winches. after that, you cant wear camo. see where this is going? banning things, whether its guns, decoys, or smoking, is a slippery slope.


Adam, I'm not picking on you, but I'm using your post to illustrate an important fact that I think alot of people need to realize;

All GMA's and public lands DO NOT operate under the same rules.

rules or rule changes can and do occur that could be unique just to one GMA. Though this ban might be a first as it pertains to spinners, there's other rules that are NOT the same across all Michigan GMA's.

there's H.P. limits on boats in certain areas, but not in others. You can hunt some gma's 7 days a week, others only certain days...

the easiest and closest example to what's going to happen with Shiawassee would be Harsens Island. They have a unique ruling that doesn't apply to any other GMA that I"m aware of and that would be Shell limits.

Fish point, Naya, Shiawassee, Pt. Mouillee, you can walk in with 25 shells

Harsens - 18 (and I remember talk about making it 15).

why the limit? to curtail the amount of skybusting. (or you can interpret that to mean "_postively enhance hunter satisfaction by addressing the skybusting of other party hunters_". (sounds eerily similar to shia's contention with spinners)

we could argue all day if it really works or not, but that's not the point I'm making.

I'm just letting all those guys out there that think they can/should be able to hunt the same way on all public lands that it's just not true. You can't do it today and hasn't been that way for a number of years.

in this case, Shiawassee (like Harsens before it) is trying an amendment of sorts to see what happens. An appempt to address an issue they deem important enough to raise a flag and create a ruling.

so to tie it together, I'm sure there were guys at Harsens that didn't appreciate the ammo limits, but you live with it if you wanted to hunt there. The boys at Shiawassee will play the game under the samy type of rules - everyone's even and on the same playing field.


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## Adam Gibbs (Jul 13, 2006)

let me ask you this. would you be opposed to a limit of the number of decoys a party can have? i can easily fit 7 dozen duck decoys in my 14 foot boat. if i had a bigger boat, or more time, i could easily fit more. so who will flare more birds? the guy with 108 decoys in a field, set up poorly, or the guy with 2 or 3 robos?

dont think the "arms race" will end because spinners are gone. the "arms" will change, but the race wont end.


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## duckcommander101 (Jan 14, 2003)

I have never hunted there as it would be a heck of a drive for me; I hope to eventually get a chance to though.

Spinners/No spinners, makes no difference to me. You have to play by the rules of each individual area.

At Mouillee the daily shell limit in the managed area was changed years ago from 25 to 18, I hear at some of the other managed areas you still get 25 shells per day.

Not my favorite change in the rules locally, but all in all it is better for the area (less skybusting) and the quality of the hunt which is what I suspect that the ban on spinners at SRSGA will result in.

And by the way; to my knowledge there was no discussion with the public about the change in the number of shells allowed in the managed area at Mouillee.

There was however, a discussion on this site about the Spinner ban at SRSGA prior to it's introduction to the powers that be. Now that the change has been made everyone gets upset about it. 

I can say that I hope that this is the last thread regarding this spinner ban; it sure is getting old.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Adam Gibbs said:


> let me ask you this. would you be opposed to a limit of the number of decoys a party can have? i can easily fit 7 dozen duck decoys in my 14 foot boat. if i had a bigger boat, or more time, i could easily fit more. so who will flare more birds? the guy with 108 decoys in a field, set up poorly, or the guy with 2 or 3 robos?
> 
> dont think the "arms race" will end because spinners are gone. the "arms" will change, but the race wont end.


If you're using the 2 or 3 robo's in early November when the birds in the refuge have all been there for the last two weeks, you'll flare more with the robo's - no question. The 7 dozen decoys, even scattered haphazardly, in the unit next to the refuge will simply look like more refuge to the ducks.


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## GoneFishin (Jan 11, 2001)

Adam Gibbs said:


> ...... next, we wont be able to take more than 3 dozen decoys. after that, no winches. ......


Ah, I can remeber the good old days, when all ya saw was canoes and small boats at SRSGA, a few dozen decoys was all ya used cause that's all ya had room for, no whining chain saw motors as ya watched the sun rise, no loud mud motors echoing across the fields just the light splash of paddles or oars as ya navigated the few inches of water in some fields. The corn stood most of the season as the canoes fit between rows and didn't knock big swathes of corn down like the big boats do, 
........ and there where ducks lots and lots of ducks.

Sure would be a shame if we got back to all that again.  

Oh ya, we didn't have much camo gear, mostly just army surplus stuff or upland hunting gear, we actually had to learn how to crouch down and be very still, and no I'm not gonna give up my Advantage Wetlands Widgeon Parka.   :lol: :lol:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

duckcommander101 said:


> ...I can say that I hope that this is the last thread regarding this spinner ban; it sure is getting old.


Sorry man, but I honestly wanted to do the poll and ask those questions so that we can look back later and see how the attitude's have changed.

By the way, one of my own hunting buddies just called and started down the same path about "telling me how to hunt on public land", and I used most of the same arguments as Branta did. Managed areas by nature are "managed", and have stricter regs than public land in general. The biggest restriction in my mind, even bigger than the shotshell limits that you all have pointed out, is the fact that you only get half day hunts, AND WE PAY AN EXTRA FEE FOR THAT PRIVELAGE


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Adam Gibbs said:


> let me ask you this. would you be opposed to a limit of the number of decoys a party can have? i can easily fit 7 dozen duck decoys in my 14 foot boat. if i had a bigger boat, or more time, i could easily fit more. so who will flare more birds? the guy with 108 decoys in a field, set up poorly, or the guy with 2 or 3 robos?
> 
> dont think the "arms race" will end because spinners are gone. the "arms" will change, but the race wont end.


your 7 dozen decoys won't affect my field one bit...might affect yours positively or negatively......but won't affect me. It's really that simple. Spinners affect everyone within sight of your spinners...sometimes positive...sometimes negative. The ban removes the negative effect on everyone else. 

you can tow 3 boats behind your boat and load them up with 12 dozen decoys if you want, it won't affect me. have at it. the minute you toss up 12 spinners tho....I might as well pack it in...because you will either slaughter them (early season) or scare every bird in the place and basically draw the line for the birds on where not to go (about 2nd week on to late season).

daisy and branta's posts were dead on. the hunters rights argument...is void here, managed units are regulated for quality hunts...have been, always will be. You don't want regulation, hunt private or a public area (i.e. the bay).

and adam, have you ever seen the flats pre-spinners and how geese use it. Geese used to be a sure bag almost 90% of the season. If you drew bad you could always take a week duck spot just to shoot your geese. Thats impossible anymore because everyone has a spinner out. A spinner = the plague to geese. Last year was unbelievable goose numbers on the area and yet if you shot a goose, it was not the norm. There was days when sky was black with honkers...yet 3 geese shot on area the whole day. why? because the geese would lock and try to land and flare or get busted at 50+ yrds because of the spinners.

1 thing that I guarantee that will change with this ban is goose hunting. your gonna see awesome feet down landing in the spread goose hunting this year.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

GoneFishin said:


> Ah, I can remeber the good old days, when all ya saw was canoes and small boats at SRSGA, a few dozen decoys was all ya used cause that's all ya had room for, no whining chain saw motors as ya watched the sun rise, no loud mud motors echoing across the fields just the light splash of paddles or oars as ya navigated the few inches of water in some fields. The corn stood most of the season as the canoes fit between rows and didn't knock big swathes of corn down like the big boats do,
> ........ and there where ducks lots and lots of ducks.
> 
> Sure would be a shame if we got back to all that again.
> ...


Yeah well GoneFishin, I STILL HAVE my dads old brown canvas upland jacket that I learned to hunt pheasants and ducks in, and ya know what, I even _*managed*_ to shoot ducks in it.

I'm not gonna bash Adam for his thoughts. He's entitled to his opinion just like everyone else. But with all due respect, he's young, and it's not his fault for being young...but that age group loves their gadgets, and in some cases they don't know any other way. 

I predict many people will be shocked at how birds actually work their spread at SRSGA this fall. Time will tell.


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## twoteal (Jul 22, 2001)

After doing alot of research about shiawassee and re reading several pages of posts I am starting to get the faint taste of shoe in the back of my throat. I think that what you have done will make for better harvest numbers wich in the end will be your down fall, bringing more people there with every report coming out of the area. I know there is a "rule" in place to circumvent cyberscouters but this has blown up so big that you are gonna be over run. Wich will suck for all the work you have done. 
Same thing goes for Maple river, I haven't been there in years but will probably visit it as well just because its being talked about.

I may visit the area a few times this year but the drive alone is not worth it. 

The reports of 5 or more robos per spread is almost unbelievable but enough of you have seen it so I will take your word for it. I always thought it was bunk cause I never seen it at pm. At the most 3 and last year if you saw one you thought it was a joke. I can only speak for the lead or humphries or what ever they call it now. I always let the ducks tell me wether they liked them or not and like a bad pitcher it got tossed at the first sign of trouble.


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

twoteal said:


> After doing alot of research about shiawassee and re reading several pages of posts I am starting to get the faint taste of shoe in the back of my throat. I think that what you have done will make for better harvest numbers wich in the end will be your down fall, *bringing more people there with every report coming out of the area*. I know there is a "rule" in place to circumvent cyberscouters but this has blown up so big that you are gonna be over run..


I believe the goal is to increase hunter numbers. Participation by more hunters will help to keep these places open.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

twoteal said:


> ...The reports of 5 or more robos per spread is almost unbelievable but enough of you have seen it so I will take your word for it...


The most I have personally seen in one spread is 8...but I know others have witnessed more. And in one single flooded corn field last fall, on an afternoon hunt, it was confirmed that there were 29 spinners going! It really is that bad at times. The guys who hunt Harsens Island have told me about similar situations, so it's not just a Shiawassee River concern.

As far as more hunters coming, no one likes to be crowded, but that's kind of the nature of managed area hunting in many instances. Some regulars won't like an increase in hunters, but I personally hope they do come. And if they do come, hopefully the ban will help everyone have a more enjoyable experience. The Shiawassee regulars who are truthful will admit on most days the area is underutilized. Yes, some specific areas can be crowded on most days, but overall use is really pretty sparse when you consider how vast the area really is. Especially on weekdays in mid-season. So I'm being honest when I say we could use more hunters there. It's good for our sport to get more people involved, and puts a bit more cash in the DNRE coffers. If a positive outcome of this ban is that more people come out, some of us will be happy with it.


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## GoneFishin (Jan 11, 2001)

just ducky said:


> ...... I'm not gonna bash Adam for his thoughts. He's entitled to his opinion just like everyone else. But with all due respect, he's young, and it's not his fault for being young...but that age group loves their gadgets, and in some cases they don't know any other way.
> 
> I predict many people will be shocked at how birds actually work their spread at SRSGA this fall. Time will tell.



Was not bashing nor intended to bash anyone. The few points which I quoted were merely a starting point for my post. Sorry if I offend anyone not my intent. Was just trying point out some of the things we miss out on now-a-days. I'll never forget the horror I felt the first time I heard an airboat on the Bay shattering the quietness of pre-dawn. I thought they had surely scared every duck outta the State.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

twoteal said:


> ...Same thing goes for Maple river, I haven't been there in years but will probably visit it as well just because its being talked about...


Before you waste gas and time driving over to Maple River, talk to the DNRE first. Major renovations are just starting there, and about 75% of what used to be the old managed units ("A", "C" and "D") will be off limits to hunting this year due to the work. So it's going to be really tough going there for a couple of years...just a heads up to everyone. But give it 3 or 4 years and there should be some outstanding opportunities for mid-Michigan hunters.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

more hunters at shiawassee means more people using the resource...

even when crowded, a good hunter is a good hunter. good hunters can overcome a bad draw. numbers is our best defense against a future threat of closing or under funding.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

gooseboy said:


> and wont have to listen to the robo/robos in the next zone over because the spinner wings are bent and squeak.


lol so true.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

I'm curious about those checking "none of the above" in the poll, and what they really mean? It's a lot more prevalent response than I anticipated. I thought I covered the responses that readily came to mind. So does a "none of the above" answer mean "I don't give a rip"?, or is there some other answer that I missed? Honestly guys, I wanna know for future purposes.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

I had to choose none of the above, as none of the other options fit what I feel when asked that question.

I don't hunt SRSGA, but addimately(said it in the other threads) feel that the hunting experience is going to improve because of the ban.

I have only hunted SRSGA a hanfull of times in the 20years I have waterfowl hunted. Always felt very overwhelmed at the size, and being a diehard west side field hunter(for mostly geese, but do get quite a few mallards) I don't have much of the required equipment or the time to gain knowledge of the area. I tell myself I would like to get over each year, but when it comes down to it, my options on any given hunting day are: something I know and am well equiped for vs. something I know nothing about and am not well equiped for. The choice usually ends up being very easy.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

just ducky said:


> Boy Adam, I couldn't disagree with you more. Last year it was very clear how getting one of the very few good spots was critical to even getting a shot. I recall two times I was out there and got a top 10 draw, which in most cases I'd be tickled with, and I was "lucky" enough to get a spot in N. Prior, but not THE spots (in other words, not the east row). Lots of birds came out of the refuge each day, but the front row guys had multiple spinners up, and the birds flared when they hit the east row. Those guys took lots of shots at passing/flaring birds, downing a few, but crippling or flat out missing lots more. The only bird we harvested that day was one of their cripples, that did the death glide into our spread, and my partner finished it off on the water.
> 
> Now turn the clock ahead to this fall...a top 10 draw will get me some decent decoying shots. Why do I say that? Because it always did in the "pre-spinner" days, like 2000 and before. I may eat crow too, but I'm fairly sure this will be the outcome.
> 
> And by the way Adam, I don't consider this "arguing". IMO this is pretty constructive discussion.


Last year was tough all over, so I'd be careful not to let last years success or lack there of hold too much meaning in comparison to the coming year. Good weather this year will change a lot and has nothing to do with spinners.

I don't think anyone can argue that spinners on educated birds are not good, so no doubt there will be an impact this year. BUT, I just caution that even back in the day, stale birds would hit the refuge line and climb. Everything always seems like it was better back in the day.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

Ok Ducky ? I checked your box in question for this simple reason, I have never hunted it, period. I suppose I could have used "D" but that really isn't true in my case. So I tried to answer the question honestly.

Being of the older generation and I have never hunted out there, I'm not about to go out there without someone who's been there etc. Just because there banning the spinners this year for the study actually would not be the reason for going there......Hence...none of the above.

My only regret about the whole deal is that FP wasn't included for this year as well ! I hate the *** things.....Another can of worm for another day......


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

3 different threads. About 20 pages. Same subject.

77 more days....

I think I'll go ask some farmers to hunt their fields while you guys debate this some more....Less competition. I love it.

Oh...and they won't tell me no robos. :evil:


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

*This ban was not brought about because last year sucked!!!!!!*

There, is that clear enough. 

It has been hashed and mentioned now in all 3 threads. The flaring trend has been noticed for many years, the arms race which has been compounding the problem has gotten huge in the last few years, the Flats group has been discussing it for at least three years and this year is the year that they finally were able to come up with a plan that their majority could agree on. That's it end of story.

Why is it that a die hard west side goose hunter, who is 100% against any type of statewide ban on spinners and has hardly ever hunted SRSGA, was able to read the proposal, sit in the CWAC meeting and hear the proposal and realize that this ban would be a GOOD THING for overall hunter satisfaction at SRSGA. Thus, voting for the proposal. Yet some don't seem to get it, I have my theories as to why they don't WANT to get it, but I'll keep that to myself.

Where's the dead horse?


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## highcaliberconsecrator (Oct 16, 2009)

X2


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## ScavengerMan (Sep 6, 2006)

Mike L said:


> My only regret about the whole deal is that FP wasn't included for this year as well ! I hate the *** things.....



With this change banning robos at Shiawassee we can expect to see even bigger mega mechanical spreads this year at FP and NP. Better start shopping right now to keep leg up in the "space race". It's going to take a LOT of battery power to keep up with the competition and whatever you do, if you plan on busting a primer don't forget the Vortex(s)!!! 


 :lol:


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

as much as this has been hashed over the last week or 2...at least the board has some action to read...whether is dumb, overkill or retarded, at least theres something. long way til season yet.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> *This ban was not brought about because last year sucked!!!!!!*
> 
> There, is that clear enough.
> 
> ...


That's the kind of cool head we need representing us on CWAC:lol:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this, whether it supports how you voted or not.

My "opinion" is that I would not mind seeing all mechanical decoys banned everywhere. I personally don't like looking at a shoreline and seeing black...white...black...white...black...white for a mile.

My preferring to not see spinners on the water, still doesn't change that I think a lot of poeple are putting way to much hope into the spinner ban. I don't think many think it won't help, but stale birds will continue to have some stale birds habits. Back in the 70's, 80's, 90's, etc... stale birds hit refuge markers and would rise up and avoid fields, much like many still will after the ban, imo. Last year was a bad year for almost everyone in the state but Dedgoose, so even if this year is marginal, it will add to the perceived benefit of the spinner ban.


BTW, it may have been talked about for years, duck groups asked, etc... but as you see, some of the guys on here that are disgruntled obviously were still not aware. Their opinions not heard. No fault of theirs and if they do not agree and this is the first they heard of this, I find it absurd that they are being faulted for not knowing. All users of a resource deserve the opportunity to voice their opinions, whether they belong to a represented organization or not. A common misconception is that if you belong to a group, that group represents you, not true.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Caddis made one important point. Stale birds are stale birds, regardless of spinners. I have hunted Todds Farm a lot in my youth, and more the last couple years as they are allowing dogs. See what one simple rule change did ? I took myself and my group there. They gained help for the work days too. When I hunt Todds Farm, the refudge is about 100 yards from your corn you hide in. Those geese come to you on a string. You call, they call, you think you are all set. They hit that 100 yard mark and they make a friggin 90 dgree turn and run the length of the field only to circle back into the refudge. Even the brain of a duck and goose can figure out boundries. If I got my tail feathers shot each time I crossed a certain line I would be pretty smart about it too. Kind of like dating the preachers daughter, getting caught once will make you a believer. 

JD, I answered i would try it out becasue of the ban. Not entirley true, but I did not want to answer None of the above. I have wanted to hunt there the last few years, just could never coordinate with anyone a time to go there, as i would need help never been there. I still hope to get there. 

I have hunted Harsens Island one time. I went with a guy and his brother who go there a lot. They told me to bring my Mud boat, a 1750 with a 27HP. Once there and we launched after the draw i fel like an idiot. Those ditch lines are small. I felt like I was compensating for something to be honest. But, the ditches were iced and it worke dout as the bigger boat broke the ice to get to our zone and opened it up for the small boats who couldn't make it through. Now then we set out about three dozen decoys I think, and then the robo's. I about crapped my pants when they hauled out this 25 foot long pole to put Robo on... I was like, ummm, you really think that will work ? But I said nothing becasue I was a guest. Well, they took that down after the first three flocks flared off. We still had two in the decoys mind you... So that was th emost I ever seen in one set up. We did okay. Not a limit, but we managed 5 or 6 I think. 

So, if I don't have to mess with a spinner, all the better, i am always cussing at them as the boat drifts as i am trying to keep the pole straight in the mud, or the remote stops working, or the wings fall off, or they make the squeel. IYIYIYI. Last year I bet I used one maybe 3 times. Rest of the season I went for better hiding and and brushing the blind in better on the water.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

TSS Caddis said:


> That's the kind of cool head we need representing us on CWAC:lol:
> 
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this, whether it supports how you voted or not.
> 
> ...


again gene, as i respect your opinion....til you see extent of what we are talking about, i think you would agree. I know you like to do get out and do your own thing far away from the crowded public areas. That being said, i think your tune would do 180° if you seen 27 spinners on 40 acres surrounding you...specially when the birds are scared of them. (this example was no where near the refuge) it was in north miller rd.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Understand that CWAC stands for Citizens Waterfowl Advisory Committee - I don't see legistlative or juris anywhere in there, so to think that CWAC pushed this through is way off base. they advise, they give their opinions, and then the MDNR COMBINES that with the survey results they conduct themselves, their emails, phone calls, Their own PROFESSIONAL opinions, etc, etc.

I can tell you first hand being on CWAC that there were times when the DNR's final decisions have gone completely counter to what was "blessed" at the earlier meetings.

CWAC advises - that's it.


so to be alarmed that a rep from the west side backs a CWAC endorsement (and that's all it is - an endorsement) for a GMA on the Eastside should be no more alarming than his decisions to back the UP's season start date. Even though he's never crossed the bridge to hunt.... ever. (don't know this to be true, just making the point.)

CWAC didn't vote to institute the ban. they voted to endorse/support the ban. You're giving them more teeth than they can handle!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some people continue to miss a simple, fundamental truth - ALL GMA's, all Public Land Hunting *DO NOT *operate under the same rules.

Do you really think Harsens polled all hunters in the state of michigan, put notices in all the major papers of their proposal, hired PR and research firms to beta test "users reactions" when they went to a stricter shell limit to curb sky-busting?

it's unrealistic and counter productive. YOu'd be PO'd that they wasted so much money.

but guess what.... there's guys that STILL show up to this day that are surprised things are different there. Leave the robo in the car just like you leave 7 shells in the truck.

I'll make a gross assumption that everyone did their homework, have compiled all the harvest data (distant past, past, present and no spinner) so that they can get some kind of learnings from this test. This is not a knee-jerk reaction from one lack luster season. if anything, maybe we should be considering how such a proposal got off the ground at all! Could it have been easier than anticipated because someone (Shia flats group) finally put to paper what alot of people were already thinking?


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Easy now caddis, I don't you and you don't know me.

Several have made the comment/implication, in all of the threads, that this ban was only reinforced to come along because last season was so horrible. Well, everytime JD has given the timeline of how this all played out, yet it is still being brought up in the arguement. So, If me summarizeing JD's comments and placing them in Bold so that they may actually be read(things not actually being read seems to happen around here a lot) makes me a hot head in your mind, then I am a hot head. I am cool with that, it is your opinion afterall. I am sure that I can find a bunch of guys that would disagree but that is your opinion.

One thing is for certain, there are a lot of things in hunting that not everyone is going to agree on. Everyone has differing opinions of many things, pass shooting, jump shooting, decoying etc.. What gets me, as is the case with my bolded statement, is when someone makes a statement and after detailed explanation that makes their statement null and void, they still keep trying to have that as their opinion. That wasn't an opinion, that a presumption that was then disproven. Stop using it, as it is not a valid argument.
What I keep seeing is the ones who are against the ban wanting their opinion respected, but not respecting the opinions of those for the ban. It goes both ways.

As far as them being or not being informed, well, lots of things happen/are changed everyday in life without ever person that is affected having their say. That's life.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Posted at the same time

Sorry if it seemed as if I was implying that this was made to happen by CWAC, that was not my intent. You are correct in was an endorsement by CWAC.

However, I will say that with the DNRE that tide is changing. CWAC may not make the rules, but it is my understanding that their recommendations are and will be held with much higher clout. This ban only re-inforced that. justducky could make it more clear, but it is my belief from the way discussions went, that had CWAC not endorsed this proposal, it would not have come to fruition. The flats group went to the DNRE first, and was told that they must go through CWAC first. I may or may not be making some ill-advised conclusions, so if someone knows more, I am all ears.

I am with you and your gross assumption about the homework being done. That is what is frustrating me with this. The work was done, yet people still want to execute the flats group.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> ...BTW, it may have been talked about for years, duck groups asked, etc... but as you see, some of the guys on here that are disgruntled obviously were still not aware. Their opinions not heard. No fault of theirs and if they do not agree and this is the first they heard of this, I find it absurd that they are being faulted for not knowing. All users of a resource deserve the opportunity to voice their opinions, whether they belong to a represented organization or not. A common misconception is that if you belong to a group, that group represents you, not true.


Okay Gene, I gotta jump on that point :tdo12:

Whether you're talking about a new hunting or fishing regulation, or a new speed limit, or a school bond election in your local area, no one is going to "spoon feed" information to me. I have to take some personal responsibility in this life to be aware of what's happening around me. If not, I could easily be left in the dust. How do I do that? Well it could be as simple as word of mouth, or reading newspapers, or things like watching internet chat boards, or watching websites. It can be as time consuming as attending school board meetings, or in this particular case, the NRC meetings, which are open to the public, and allow public input. But to sit back and do nothing to attempt to keep abreast of things, and then simply bitch about it, I have little sympathy. 

I respect your thought that not everyone is a member of a waterfowling organization...that's very true. However I would hazard a guess though that most waterfowlers have at least one hunting partner who is a member of one or more of the groups, which would helps spread the word on this type of thing.

So as not to rehash every group that was contacted (suffice to say all of them, including DU, Delta and Waterfowl USA) I also did an interview early on with the Michigan Outdoor News (I know, not everyone reads it), the Grand Rapids Press, (I know, not everyone reads it), and brought MUCC into the loop to help spread the word. The DNRE and NRC process for gaining input is not quick, and allows lots of time for public input, but again, you have to be aware of what's going on. Short of putting ads in newspapers or on TV, I really don't know what we could've done to connect with every individual waterfowler other than knocking on doors. 

Do I wish everyone could've clearly known? Sure. But do I feel we did everything reasonable in our power to spread the word? You bet I do.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> ...but it is my belief from the way discussions went, that had CWAC not endorsed this proposal, it would not have come to fruition. The flats group went to the DNRE first, and was told that they must go through CWAC first...


That's not just your belief, that's a fact. Had we not gotten the support of the CWAC, we would've never gotten past the next step of working with DNRE staff. It would've died there. It also could've died with the DNRE staff, so I give them credit for hearing all of the input we got. It also could've died at the NRC, who easily could've shot it down before it got to the public input stage. If anyone out there doubts how many chances a proposal like this has to die on the vine, try going through it once.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Mike L said:


> Ok Ducky ? I checked your box in question for this simple reason, I have never hunted it, period. I suppose I could have used "D" but that really isn't true in my case. So I tried to answer the question honestly.


So wouldn't your answer be you've never hunted it, and don't intend to? No big deal either way. I was just trying to figure out what people's thoughts were.




Mike L said:


> My only regret about the whole deal is that FP wasn't included for this year as well ! I hate the *** things.....Another can of worm for another day......


Well Mike, I can only say we tried. My opinion FP and Nayanquing would benefit from a similar ban. But it's up to those groups to bring it forward if they so choose.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> again gene, as i respect your opinion....til you see extent of what we are talking about, i think you would agree. I know you like to do get out and do your own thing far away from the crowded public areas. That being said, i think your tune would do 180° if you seen 27 spinners on 40 acres surrounding you...specially when the birds are scared of them. (this example was no where near the refuge) it was in north miller rd.


Dan, I'm actually not disagreeing with the ban at all.

With the whole additional special reg trout water thing going on right now, I am just sensitve to making sure everyone is represented. I know you guys are trying to do right by everyone, and took every measure you could think of to solicate input, but my guess would be that there is still a large population of people that will show up at Shiawasee next fall toting spinners because they had not heard boo about it. Large organizations get sought out for input, but there really is no great way to solicate the average guy that hunts there 4 times a year for his input. I know someone will now answer that the average Joe should join and organization to be heard, but really most organizations are not taking member votes on issues, they make the decision for their members. Although you are trying to do right by him, the average guy still didn't get input. Just no great way to target that audience IMO. It is not just this issue, but many others as well have the same problem. If this was a deer management issue, it would be plastered in the papers, every local, regional rag, but because it is spinners at Shiawasee, unless a guy is on the web, it probably flew right past him and as you are seeing, the guys that this happened to are po'd, and you really can't blame them. We can tell them it is in their best interest until they are blue in the face, but they believe that they need their spinner to kill birds and they have the right to think that.

Like I said, I know you guys are trying to do right by everyone, but a lot of guys will not know that.


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