# Special Hook Size Fishing Regulations (Formerly FO-202)



## eye-sore

I agree its bs all I'm saying is don't lump all guys using a treb as a snagger. We aren't all yankers


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## King slain

eye-sore said:


> And by the way they were stacked thick.get up there


Check your PM


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## salmon fever

dinoday said:


> The only way you avoid snagging them altogether is to not fish for them..you will occasionally snag a salmon while fishing legally (ethically).
> A CO isn't going to ticket you if you foul hook a fish accidentally as long as you let it go.
> Getting rid of treble hooks and lead lures; aka turk's ticklers and the like, gives them a way to stop the blantant violators without having to sit and watch them for an hour or more.


I agree! I run sacks under bobs with a single small hook and I do occasionally snag one as my float runs through a large pod. Kinda hard to avoid doing it at all. Yes, I release all foul hooked fish. I personally would like to lessen the amount of drunk, high, and cursing, bank billies that are next to me ripping a hole with a pound of lead. Yeah, still gonna have flossers of all kinds. Like I said before the BSR is a much calmer and nicer place to fish now since they instituted the single hook 3/8 inch. Most dudes out there now are chucking gut or floating bags. Maybe someday tippy can be that way too.


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## FishMichv2

this is such great news. great friggin news. where do i sign? how do i show my support?


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## fishinfever

dinoday said:


> The only way you avoid snagging them altogether is to not fish for them..you will occasionally snag a salmon while fishing legally (ethically).
> A CO isn't going to ticket you if you foul hook a fish accidentally as long as you let it go.
> Getting rid of treble hooks and lead lures; aka turk's ticklers and the like, gives them a way to stop the blantant violators without having to sit and watch them for an hour or more.


You nailed it!!


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## Big Skip

eye-sore said:


> So all these guys that are hounding the snaggers, are you using trebs with skein??? Because your snagging too, whether intentional or not. It makes you no better than any one else.I'm really getting sick of the holier than thou attitudes.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## toto

You will never fish for salmon in the rivers without "foul hooking" one once in a while, that's different than snagging. If a guy is trying to fish legally and foul hook's one, I'm 99.9% sure he'll put it back. It's the guys who are purposefully setting a giant treble hook in the back of a salmon that this law was meant to stop.

Driftabugger, you may never have seen a salmon chase down a caddis from 8' away, but I'll tell ya what I have done. Take a giant mayfly, which is a dry fly as you know, and crimp on a little split shot above it then drift that through the hole and see what happens. You are fishing that mayfly about a foot or so below the surface and I'll tell ya what, I have seen salmon go 8' to smash it, done it.


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## Minner_Chaser

Is it snagging if I place some skein on a single hook and sink it in a hole and wait for one to take it? I want to try that this weekend but I've never done it before


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## deathroe

toto said:


> You will never fish for salmon in the rivers without "foul hooking" one once in a while, that's different than snagging. If a guy is trying to fish legally and foul hook's one, I'm 99.9% sure he'll put it back. It's the guys who are purposefully setting a giant treble hook in the back of a salmon that this law was meant to stop.
> 
> Driftabugger, you may never have seen a salmon chase down a caddis from 8' away, but I'll tell ya what I have done. Take a giant mayfly, which is a dry fly as you know, and crimp on a little split shot above it then drift that through the hole and see what happens. You are fishing that mayfly about a foot or so below the surface and I'll tell ya what, I have seen salmon go 8' to smash it, done it.


I would be willing to bet that you can no longer put a split shot right up againt your fly when this proposed law goes into effect. This is from that last page of the document:

*For the purpose of this section, an artificial lure is defined as a body bait, plug, spinner, or spoon. An

artificial lure is not a device primarily constructed of lead. From August 1 through November 15,

inclusive, terminal fishing gear is restricted to single-pointed, un-weighted hooks, measuring ½-inch or

less from point to shank or treble hooks measuring 

&#8540;-inch or less from point to shank only when

attached to an artificial lure on the following waters
*


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## driftabugger

toto said:


> Driftabugger, you may never have seen a salmon chase down a caddis from 8' away, but I'll tell ya what I have done. Take a giant mayfly, which is a dry fly as you know, and crimp on a little split shot above it then drift that through the hole and see what happens. You are fishing that mayfly about a foot or so below the surface and I'll tell ya what, I have seen salmon go 8' to smash it, done it.



I don't doubt that swinging a large mayfly or other type ofstreamer/diver is effective as i originally said. But a swung size 10 cadis isnot going to create the same result. This is what the "fly" fisherman every year do and I laugh.I've seen swung streamers get lit up much like a swung spinner but not a swungnymph. I was referring to the 8' leader with a slinky shot lining fish withflies by bouncing in bottom 12 inches of the water column. Hopefully this clears things up. There is a way to fly fish for kings and unfortunatelymost fly snaggers/liners have no idea how to do it. It involves sinking lines, large streamersand no shot with a significant amount of skill. Notice how I did not reference mono filled C&D fly rigs with 8 footleaders a 1/4oz of shot as fly fishing because its fly snagging/lining.



Have a great day


DB


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## mpolander

Wow, very deep and heated debate. On a lighter note, when should I make my trip to the Manistee river over the next month? When is my best chance for catching some kings?


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## mpolander

Wow, very deep and heated debate. On a lighter note, when should I make my trip to the Manistee river over the next month? When is my best chance for catching some kings?


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## tom01mxz800

You can say that again!


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## mpolander

When is the best time over the next month to fish Kings in the Manistee River? Can you suggest any hot spots. I know about Tippy Dam and Horshoe Bend.

Thank you in advance.

Mike


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## FishMichv2

driftabugger said:


> Notice how I did not reference mono filled C&D fly rigs with 8 footleaders a 1/4oz of shot as fly fishing because its fly snagging/lining.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a great day
> 
> 
> DB


ive caught hundreds of steelhead and browns with this method. pretty sure they werent lined. i get what you are saying but that rig will catch biting fish.


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## Lake Erie Monster

I ordered eggs online and Walmart made a suggestion for a future purchase (at the bottom). Think they may be telling me I suck at salmon fishing. :help:


Visit Walmart.com | Help | My Account | Track My Orders
Your Order Is Ready for Pickup
Site to Store
Walmart Associate Only - Please scan below:


Dear Brett Foreman,
The items listed below from your Walmart.com order #2677053-625722 are now ready for pickup at the Lewis Center Walmart. 
Items	Size (each)	Weight (each)	Qty Order Status	

Pautzke Balls O' Fire Premium Salmon Eggs, 1 oz
8" x 11" x 8"


Recommended for You
* Prices and availability are subject to change.

Matzuo Snagging Weighted Treble Hooks, Black Chrome
$6.99


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## deathroe

Lake Erie Monster said:


> I ordered eggs online and Walmart made a suggestion for a future purchase (at the bottom). Think they may be telling me I suck at salmon fishing. :help:
> 
> 
> Visit Walmart.com | Help | My Account | Track My Orders
> Your Order Is Ready for Pickup
> Site to Store
> Walmart Associate Only - Please scan below:
> 
> 
> Dear Brett Foreman,
> The items listed below from your Walmart.com order #2677053-625722 are now ready for pickup at the Lewis Center Walmart.
> Items Size (each) Weight (each) Qty Order Status
> 
> Pautzke Balls O' Fire Premium Salmon Eggs, 1 oz
> 8" x 11" x 8"
> 
> 
> Recommended for You
> * Prices and availability are subject to change.
> 
> Matzuo Snagging Weighted Treble Hooks, Black Chrome
> $6.99


:yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes:


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## ausable_steelhead

Anyone saying they snag more fish running eggs than flies or yarn is just reaching. You can have milling chinooks swim into your leader while fishing eggs under a bobber and line themselves. You can have your rig set wrong and occasionally foul one(usually a pec or cheek shot). You can have 100 fish packed into a small dip and foul them sometimes(usually already spooky fish). Other than that, it's mostly well down that yapper and there is NO debate. 

The sad thing is there has been teachings and info on doing it right for river salmon for over 20-30 years. Websites like this are FULL of truth every single year. Yet, people still try to play dumb and say "they don't bite". They don't always bite, but they most certainly do bite. 

For the guys who've been fishing them legit with spawn for awhile, you know just how easy it can be. There are times, where salmon seem near suicidal on spawn. It can be just like fishing for bluegills. One after another...after another...after another. Once you get it right, and know how to do it, 10 fish is a slow day; 15 is okay. The good times are 20-30 fish; or more. People may scoff at that, but that's the truth. I've saw 3 guys put the hooks into 70+ salmon before, in a few hours. Spawn is the absolute BEST way to ever hook the most biting salmon of your life. Not a single other method even comes close. None.


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## Waz_51

ausable_steelhead said:


> Anyone saying they snag more fish running eggs than flies or yarn is just reaching. You can have milling chinooks swim into your leader while fishing eggs under a bobber and line themselves. You can have your rig set wrong and occasionally foul one(usually a pec or cheek shot). You can have 100 fish packed into a small dip and foul them sometimes(usually already spooky fish). Other than that, it's mostly well down that yapper and there is NO debate.
> 
> The sad thing is there has been teachings and info on doing it right for river salmon for over 20-30 years. Websites like this are FULL of truth every single year. Yet, people still try to play dumb and say "they don't bite". They don't always bite, but they most certainly do bite.
> 
> For the guys who've been fishing them legit with spawn for awhile, you know just how easy it can be. There are times, where salmon seem near suicidal on spawn. It can be just like fishing for bluegills. One after another...after another...after another. Once you get it right, and know how to do it, 10 fish is a slow day; 15 is okay. The good times are 20-30 fish; or more. People may scoff at that, but that's the truth. I've saw 3 guys put the hooks into 70+ salmon before, in a few hours. Spawn is the absolute BEST way to ever hook the most biting salmon of your life. Not a single other method even comes close. None.


20-30?!!?! DAMN! And I thought I was doing pretty good when I'd land 5-10 in a day, lol!


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## toto

I hear ya, the way I used to do it it wasn't lining in any way. All you were really doing was fishing a dry fly wet. Having said all that, you may be right on the new regs, but what do I know.


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## REG

This new gear reg was needed to stem snaggers. Unfortunately, snaggers will find a way to snag. 
I am hoping the CO's can exercise some discretion with this as alot of lures that come right out of the package will become lawbreakers, as a 3/8 gap is essentially a size 4 treble and a 1/2" gap is about a size 1, not big hooks at all. It's normally pretty obvious out there who's fishing and who's gigging.


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## Fishndude

REG said:


> This new gear reg was needed to stem snaggers. Unfortunately, snaggers will find a way to snag.
> I am hoping the CO's can exercise some discretion with this as alot of lures that come right out of the package will become lawbreakers, as a 3/8 gap is essentially a size 4 treble and a 1/2" gap is about a size 1, not big hooks at all. It's normally pretty obvious out there who's fishing and who's gigging.


I participated in the Riverwatch @ Tippy for years. I will tell you that COs always use discretion with regards to Salmon snagging. Will they ticket the idiots who are obviously intentionally trying to snag fish by ripping "lures" which are obviously intended for snagging? Absolutely!, as they should. Will they ticket someone who keeps a foul hooked fish, even if the person who caught it was using a legal fishing method? Yep, every time they see it. There have been hook size restrictions on MI rivers for many years, and I know for a fact that some COs have overlooked much larger hooks than allowed, because the user was using a method that would have a very slim chance for foul hooking fish. Maybe they will make a stronger stand on hook size, just to help enforce the new regs. I could live with that. A 2/0 single hook with skein is a Salmon slaying tool, that will get biters more than just about anything else. Get you some laundry soap, and have at it. :lol:

I was working the Riverwatch some years ago, and worked with some COs who busted a guy at Tippy (south side, just below the coffer) for snagging. The guy complained about the fish not biting, and the CO went through the guy's tackle box, and advised him to try a big fat Tadpolly that looked brand new. A couple hours later we happened to be in the same area, and I borrowed a CO's binocs (they can see in the dark with their binoculars) to watch the same guy fight a fish. When he landed that fish, the Tadpolly was firmly hooked inside the fish's mouth - and no longer looked brand new. I let the Officer know, and he marched right down there, and congratulated the angler on his catch. The guy was actually shaking from the excitement - buck fever. He was also amazed at how easily he could control the fish when it was hooked in the mouth. And another real Salmon angler was born - although he still had to pay a ticket for snagging. 

I helped a few people during the Riverwatches, who had foul hooked fish. I would watch them fight, and land the fish. And, if they were using a legal method of fishing, I would quietly warn them if they started to stringer the fish. "Don't do it," was all it took most of the time. And I was just a citizen standing on the bank making a comment. The smart ones did the right thing, and released those fish. The dumb ones strung the fish, and then a CO would come out of hiding from somewhere else, and write them up. If they were using "torpedoes," or other typical snagging methods, they didn't get the nice warning from me. But they got their tickets.


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## piscatorial warrior

mpolander said:


> When is the best time over the next month to fish Kings in the Manistee River? Can you suggest any hot spots. I know about Tippy Dam and Horshoe Bend.
> 
> Thank you in advance.
> 
> Mike


Mike, Next high water should see a significant push of kings. The best time to go is when you can. No-one is going to give you their hotspots. You have to find your own and this takes time. My advice to you is get a detailed map and go two trackin'


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## Julez81

dinoday said:


> The only way you avoid snagging them altogether is to not fish for them..you will occasionally snag a salmon while fishing legally (ethically).
> A CO isn't going to ticket you if you foul hook a fish accidentally as long as you let it go.
> Getting rid of treble hooks and lead lures; aka turk's ticklers and the like, gives them a way to stop the blantant violators without having to sit and watch them for an hour or more.


I totally agree. I have been bringing my techniques in line with this so that my gear is legal on all MI waters anyways. Welcome change. Social Issue. In a democracy we the people make the rules.

At least in my experience, I am catching more fish anyways.


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## workingman

salmon fever said:


> I have first hand observed how this law has positively changed a river. In 2006, the LSP put this law in place AND DNR did work hard to enforce it. The park is now a pleasure to fish at as the majority of folks I see fishing there every year are using the legal gear and trying to catch fish legally....there is still a knuckle head now and then but it is not the norm. Can't wait for this to go into effect!!!


Amen, amen Bro!

Now that something is clear cut and in writing a CO can enforce it. It's about time. Wherever I fish I'm going to call ahead of time an get the number of the local CO and program it on speed dial on my phone. Whenever I fish an see the abuse I'm going to call. We can all call and make a difference.


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## workingman

Fishndude said:


> I helped a few people during the Riverwatches, who had foul hooked fish. I would watch them fight, and land the fish. And, if they were using a legal method of fishing, I would quietly warn them if they started to stringer the fish. "Don't do it," was all it took most of the time. And I was just a citizen standing on the bank making a comment. The smart ones did the right thing, and released those fish. The dumb ones strung the fish, and then a CO would come out of hiding from somewhere else, and write them up. If they were using "torpedoes," or other typical snagging methods, they didn't get the nice warning from me. But they got their tickets.


Just curious, what is the fine when someone gets caught snagging?


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## eye-sore

So did this new reg actually pass, or is it just a proposal at this point in time???


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## AdamBradley

Looks very close to coming into effect for next year. The pdf is dated September 11, 2014, suggesting they will be signing it into law on Tuesday from what I can see.


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## ausable_steelhead

Waz_51 said:


> 20-30?!!?! DAMN! And I thought I was doing pretty good when I'd land 5-10 in a day, lol!


It doesn't happen all the time, but it's possible. The very best skein fishing I've ever experienced was on the East side. The mouth of the Au Sable was a helluva place to be in September, floating skein or choker bags. We had days where it was a must to cut a couple hens in order to keep baited.

One interesting thing I've noticed though, is the difference in spawn preference. On the West side, cured is far and away the best way to go. I do well on fresh, uncured bags over here however. The East side was simple borax cure or even better; no cure. Not sure why, but Lake Huron salmon LOVED fresh ass stank. We'd fish it side by side with cured, and the fresh blew it away every time.


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## TSS Caddis

If someone is butt hurt over not being able to fish a treble with skein, instead of trying to compare it to intentionally snagging they may want to try a single hook and find out that it is just as effective in hooking biters. Under a float a single hook is WAY less effective at accidentally foul hooking fish. Of course they may have to take the initiative to learn how to tie an egg loop.

Bottom line is the law is not putting any law abiding citizen at a disadvantage, they may just need to switch up the hook they are accustomed to using.


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## Jfish

driftabugger said:


> I don't doubt that swinging a large mayfly or other type ofstreamer/diver is effective as i originally said. But a swung size 10 cadis isnot going to create the same result. This is what the "fly" fisherman every year do and I laugh.I've seen swung streamers get lit up much like a swung spinner but not a swungnymph. I was referring to the 8' leader with a slinky shot lining fish withflies by bouncing in bottom 12 inches of the water column. Hopefully this clears things up. There is a way to fly fish for kings and unfortunatelymost fly snaggers/liners have no idea how to do it. It involves sinking lines, large streamersand no shot with a significant amount of skill. Notice how I did not reference mono filled C&D fly rigs with 8 footleaders a 1/4oz of shot as fly fishing because its fly snagging/lining.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a great day
> 
> 
> DB


Try telling all the chuck and duck steelheaders that they're lining fish!


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## TSS Caddis

Jfish said:


> Try telling all the chuck and duck steelheaders that they're lining fish!


Not all, but a crap load are.


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## Fishndude

workingman said:


> Just curious, what is the fine when someone gets caught snagging?


I have no idea. I just worked with the DNR to identify people who were doing it, or making a valiant effort to do it. I know that in some cases the DNR will confiscate fish, fishing equipment, and I've even heard of them taking people's vehicles because they stashed snagged fish in them. 

Funny, since the fish will actually bite some of the time. Snagging is an expensive sport, I guess.


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## eye-sore

With the new proposal, i was thinking a treb was still legal if it was under 3/8 inch from point to shank.or is that only on a lure??? I typically use very small trebs and was wondering if they will be illegal now


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## Waz_51

eye-sore said:


> With the new proposal, i was thinking a treb was still legal if it was under 3/8 inch from point to shank.or is that only on a lure??? I typically use very small trebs and was wondering if they will be illegal now


They are still legal between August 1 and November 15 if they're 3/8" or less from point to shank

It only bans hooks on artificial lures that exceed 3/8"


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## AdamBradley

Ok guys, to expound, this is the scoop straight from Mark tonello. 3/8 or less for trebles during august 1 and November 15, only when attached to a lure. No treble at all is permitted unless it is fished on a lure. No trebles for skein under bobber.


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## Waz_51

AdamBradley said:


> Ok guys, to expound, this is the scoop straight from Mark tonello. 3/8 or less for trebles during august 1 and November 15, only when attached to a lure. No treble at all is permitted unless it is fished on a lure. No trebles for skein under bobber.


It's gonna be pretty hard to enforce that if it's not written in the law... The only mention of treble hooks is in the application of artificial lures... Unless it specifically states that they cannot be used except for on artificial lures, I don't know how they plan on enforcing it... It might actually say that in the law, but it is not in the excerpt that was included in the OP... The excerpt only spells out restrictions regarding the use of artificial lures

It doesn't make a lick of difference to me, I strictly use octopus hooks


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## dinoday

It's easy to enforce.


2) For the purpose of this section, an artificial lure is defined as a body bait, plug, spinner, or spoon. An artificial lure is not a device primarily constructed of lead. From August 1 through November 15, inclusive, terminal fishing gear is restricted to single-pointed, un-weighted hooks, measuring ½-inch or less from point to shank or treble hooks measuring &#8540;-inch or less from point to shank only when attached to an artificial lure on the following waters:

Only when attached to an artifical lure.


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## Waz_51

dinoday said:


> It's easy to enforce.
> 
> 
> 2) For the purpose of this section, an artificial lure is defined as a body bait, plug, spinner, or spoon. An artificial lure is not a device primarily constructed of lead. From August 1 through November 15, inclusive, terminal fishing gear is restricted to single-pointed, un-weighted hooks, measuring ½-inch or less from point to shank or treble hooks measuring &#8540;-inch or less from point to shank only when attached to an artificial lure on the following waters:
> 
> Only when attached to an artifical lure.


OK, but it still says nothing about what hooks you can use when fishing natural bait... It only points out the gear that is restricted in regards to artificial lures


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## Jfish

Waz_51 said:


> OK, but it still says nothing about what hooks you can use when fishing natural bait... It only points out the gear that is restricted in regards to artificial lures


Cannot have a single hook larger than 1/2" for bait. It is worded weird but when they're talking about the treble hook they're referring to it being on an artificial lure but not referring to the single hook being on the artificial lure.


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## caffeineforall

Jfish said:


> Cannot have a single hook larger than 1/2" for bait. It is worded weird but when they're talking about the treble hook they're referring to it being on an artificial lure but not referring to the single hook being on the artificial lure.


this confused me more

9Lives


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## Jfish

caffeineforall said:


> this confused me more
> 
> 9Lives


I should've said we can use a single hook leso than a half inch from hook to shank for bait. A half inch and larger for bait will be illegal.


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## TSS Caddis

I don't see how it could be more straight forward:

2) For the purpose of this section, an artificial lure is defined as a body bait, plug, spinner, or spoon. An artificial lure is not a device primarily constructed of lead. From August 1 through November 15, inclusive, terminal fishing gear is restricted to single-pointed, un-weighted hooks, measuring ½-inch or less from point to shank or treble hooks measuring &#8540;-inch or less from point to shank only when attached to an artificial lure on the following waters:


You can only use trebles on lures and they must be 3/8" or less from point to shank.

EVERY other method is restricted to a single-pointed hook measuring 1/2" or less from point to shank.


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## Benzie Rover

Mr Burgundy said:


> This is a move in the right direction. I don't normally get involved in these debates but I was truly disgusted with what I saw this year. Call me a tree hugger but I felt bad for the salmon. No ethics at all were being used to fish. It really got to me this year and I had a hard time enjoying myself. Just my thoughts


You nailed it Burgundy - My thoughts exactly. What has always been a life-long fall tradition for me (salmon fishing the rivers) stopped about 8 years ago. 98% of my 'fishing' time now is guiding my son (and daughter when she wants to go) and the salmon scene is no bueno. I try to take advantage of them living up here and we're on the water 1-2x a week all year, but I take them for walleye, bass and trout until steel show up.


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## Fishndude

Benzie Rover said:


> but I take them for walleye, bass and trout _*until steel show up*_.


YEAH, THAT! :lol:


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## Waz_51

Jfish said:


> Cannot have a single hook larger than 1/2" for bait. It is worded weird but when they're talking about the treble hook they're referring to it being on an artificial lure but not referring to the single hook being on the artificial lure.


I get what it's saying, but I guarantee you that somebody will create a stink over it... It doesn't specifically say anything about using treble hooks for bait

The part I'm referring to is where it says that "terminal tackle is restricted to... only when used on an artificial lure"

Is there a part that refers to restrictions regarding bait fishing?


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## tom01mxz800

So did it pass?


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## AdamBradley

Waz_51 said:


> I get what it's saying, but I guarantee you that somebody will create a stink over it... It doesn't specifically say anything about using treble hooks for bait
> 
> The part I'm referring to is where it says that "terminal tackle is restricted to... only when used on an artificial lure"
> 
> Is there a part that refers to restrictions regarding bait fishing?


Well, to be honest, I was already that somebody whom created a stink over the trebles with skein scenario with Mr Tonello a few months back when the word came public. We went back and forth with emails several times. Basically, there is no budging, and what you see is what you get as far as the words. It took a lot of dileberation to get the co-s, prosecuters, judges, biologists, and sheriff office on board. They aren't taking a step back.

3/8 or smaller trebles on a crank, spoon, spinner, no where else. Single hooks for bait. 

It's a positive step in the right direction. So what if we have to switch to singles for skein, in contrast with the benefits of ticklers becoming extinct! Small sacrifice for a large gain!


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## wintrrun

AdamBradley said:


> It's a positive step in the right direction. So what if we have to switch to singles for skein, in contrast with the benefits of ticklers becoming extinct! Small sacrifice for a large gain!


Agreed.
A couple years of you treble / skein lovers converting over to the singles and you'll be wondering in hindsight what all the hype was about. :lol:


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## Jfish

wintrrun said:


> Agreed.
> A couple years of you treble / skein lovers converting over to the singles and you'll be wondering in hindsight what all the hype was about. :lol:


I agree. The only time I've had an issue is with junk hooks. They get hooked good 99% of the time.


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## AdamBradley

I can imagine we will be thinking that way. I always used a rod with serious backbone, and never had a penetration problem, so I cant complain about trebles. Switched to singles this year as a prep move. If I can ask, what kind of singles are you running? I picked up some 2x mustads with a decent offset. I forget the exact number, package out in the truck.


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## FishKilla419

wintrrun said:


> Agreed.
> A couple years of you treble / skein lovers converting over to the singles and you'll be wondering in hindsight what all the hype was about. :lol:


I ran out of my gamakatsus a couple years back on the betsie while floating big chunk in some prefect color water. I tried 4 different treble hooks and went 0 for 8. Finally I put on a steelhead hook and landed one.


Sent from my S5


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## TSS Caddis

Waz_51 said:


> I get what it's saying, but I guarantee you that somebody will create a stink over it... It doesn't specifically say anything about using treble hooks for bait
> 
> The part I'm referring to is where it says that "terminal tackle is restricted to... only when used on an artificial lure"
> 
> Is there a part that refers to restrictions regarding bait fishing?


"*terminal fishing gear* is restricted to single-pointed, un-weighted hooks, measuring ½-inch or less from point to shank"

That covers everything but the exception they made for lures.


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## Jfish

AdamBradley said:


> I can imagine we will be thinking that way. I always used a rod with serious backbone, and never had a penetration problem, so I cant complain about trebles. Switched to singles this year as a prep move. If I can ask, what kind of singles are you running? I picked up some 2x mustads with a decent offset. I forget the exact number, package out in the truck.


There's no king that will bend a gamakatsu 1/0. I'm pretty sure that those meet the less than half inch. A size 1 or 2 works great also. 

I use the octopus hook with a reverse eye. I tie a regular snell if I'm fishing bags or a skein loop if fishing skein. Really a snell and egg loop are almost the same anyway. With both the force is pulled right from the shank rather than tying directly on the eye. If you tie directly on the eye I think that it can actually keep the hook from setting.


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## AdamBradley

Jfish said:


> There's no king that will bend a gamakatsu 1/0. I'm pretty sure that those meet the less than half inch. A size 1 or 2 works great also.
> 
> I use the octopus hook with a reverse eye. I tie a regular snell if I'm fishing bags or a skein loop if fishing skein. Really a snell and egg loop are almost the same anyway. With both the force is pulled right from the shank rather than tying directly on the eye. If you tie directly on the eye I think that it can actually keep the hook from setting.



Thanks, yeah, I agree an egg loop for skein is the way to go. Even though I have always used trebs, I also always egg loop, easier to get off the hook than if you loop and goop it over the 3 barbs.


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## JVoutdoors

It appears that FO202.15 will be effective on April 9, 2015 and is the same as the version we saw last fall. One point, as some of us are already out targeting steel, is that the hook restrictions are only in effect August 1 - November 15. Appears to me that those who want to float skein with trebs or use single hooks larger than 1/2" still can except for the dates indicated (main salmon run). http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/FO202.15_Special_Hook_Size_481783_7.pdf

This reg change is not in the current Fishing booklet so guessing it will be in the final version mentioned on the DNR site or at least on the electronic version when finalized. 
Good luck to you all and hope to see you on the river soon! (went last weekend on the Betsie with the grandson. no fish and it was cold but great to be out)


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## Steelheadfred

What about on plugs?


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## kzoofisher

Steelheadfred said:


> What about on plugs?


 trebles with a gap of 3/8" or less on artificial lures will be allowed below Tippy, on the Betsie and Bear Creek. See section 2 of the order linked above.

Also note in that memorandum that this new FO has no biological basis and is a purely social restriction yet has received no opposition from any organized groups. Just goes to show that "discrimination" is OK when it's somebody else's ox being gored and being "holier than thou" is all a matter of perspective.


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## AdamBradley

Steelheadfred said:


> What about on plugs?


Check out the pdf he had attached, Page 4. Section 1 creeks, no plugs. Not practical for those creeks anyway. Section 2 lists where trebles can still be used, plugs, cranks, spoons, spinners.


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## wdf73

Has anyone measured the gap on stock hooks? Just curious if we will be able to use t sticks etc from the package or will need to replace the hooks.


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## STEELnICE

Those half inch singles, still legal, will still be the most effective tool for snagging kings in the jaws as they always have been.

I can't help but notice this regulation effectively makes jigs illegal. Don't know why they restrict methods more and more when snagging is already illegal and the only people they are restricting are law abiders who weren't snagging in the first place.


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## fishinfever

First off, I understand that ignorance of a law is no excuse.

Has anyone heard how they plan to inform all anglers (in state, out of state, vacationers) about the new restrictions. I would think that this would be important since it isn't in the current Fishing Booklet that is handed out with the licenses.

I can think of a couple of scenarios. A statewide media blitz on the same day all types of news sources. Signs posted at all launches and dams on the affected rivers and streams. 

I can still imagine someone legitimately going out, just like every other year, and violating the new regs without knowing. I suppose they could just issue warnings this first year or write tickets on the second warning.

Just wondering,
FF


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## kzoofisher

I would guess that there will be signs at access points but I doubt they'll stay up long, maybe a couple hours after the first ticket is written. The stores that used to sell the banned lures may have some signage too and a mention during license sales would be nice. The die was cast on this change not being in the digest last year, I heard it wouldn't be in back in October. I've got to figure that if there isn't a blitz to advertise it, and lots of tickets get issued, the DNR's feelings about whether or not the snaggers ever come back again will be pretty clear.


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## Julez81

My understanding is that when a regulation changes midseason, they must canvas and maybe even run commercials but they have to notify everybody.


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## kzoofisher

Isn't that for emergency orders? The fishing digest doesn't contain all the rules regs, you have to actually look up the various orders and laws etc. to get the full scoop. I'm sure they'll have some press releases now and in August as well as signs at Tippy and other areas but I don't know how far they'll go beyond that. It would have been nice to get the change in the digest it just wasn't possible to make the new rule in time for that. I'm sure there would have been a fair number of violators who never would have read the rules anyway. Amazing how many people never bother to check the regs. They just head out thinking that the way they did it in 1970 is still the way to do it today.


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## AdamBradley

STEELnICE said:


> Those half inch singles, still legal, will still be the most effective tool for snagging kings in the jaws as they always have been.
> 
> I can't help but notice this regulation effectively makes jigs illegal. Don't know why they restrict methods more and more when snagging is already illegal and the only people they are restricting are law abiders who weren't snagging in the first place.


Word for word yes. Mark tonello is active on here, and may even jump in on the conversation. He spoke at our mssfa chapter meeting last month. I asked the question about jigs point blank, as he stood in front of ~100 members, and stated "fish jigs under a float, you will not be ticketed. That is not illegal under this new reg."... we spoke after the meeting, gave me his card, told me to call him if I have issues from a CO.... so while it reads that way, it supposedly will not be enforced that way.... stay tuned to see if guys getting jiggy get ticketed!


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## JVoutdoors

Interesting input Adam. I am glad to hear that the DNR are encouraged to use discretion. While it will get some on the forum screaming, enforcement action of most "law" violations has always been "discretionary" by LEOs/COs. Most worth their salt use it every day and are encouraged to by good departments. Intent means a lot in a common sense way to the guy/girl trying to decide whether to write a ticket, arrest vs appearance ticket, etc. Will I get a ticket floating a jig with a 5/8" gap and spawn on it? I would hope not when just down river from 20 people with 5/0 trebles with some yarn on it.

And to the good post on informing all of the change: ignorance of the law is never a valid defense. Sucks being you but doesn't work in court. When you get a drivers license you don't get a copy of the MI Motor Vehicle Code. 
I used to work in the LEO arena until I saw the light and got a real job. Which also allows for more fishing time! Backed up some COs more than once. Crazy job they have.


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## M. Tonello

Adam Bradley is correct- this new reg will not restrict the use of jigs for steelhead. The entire reason for this new reg is to help our Conservation Officers target illegal snaggers by making their favorite snagging tackle illegal. Our COs realize that anyone fishing a jig/waxie under a bobber is not snagging, simple as that.


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## METTLEFISH

M. Tonello said:


> Adam Bradley is correct- this new reg will not restrict the use of jigs for steelhead. The entire reason for this new reg is to help our Conservation Officers target illegal snaggers by making their favorite snagging tackle illegal. Our COs realize that anyone fishing a jig/waxie under a bobber is not snagging, simple as that.


 
Get it right fisheries. It will not "fly" (intended) in a Court of Law. Preferential treatment is a no-no. .5" is iether illegal or not. Take the time to get it right so the intended law can be enforced. AKA no grey areas.


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## johnnie555

METTLEFISH said:


> Get it right fisheries. It will not "fly" (intended) in a Court of Law. Preferential treatment is a no-no. .5" is iether illegal or not. Take the time to get it right so the intended law can be enforced. AKA no grey areas.


Yep, if left open to various forms of interpretation it's left susceptible to being defeated in court. KISS (KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID) That's the one problem I think Michigan's Dnr has is over regulating. Simplify the rulebook, leave no gray areas.


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## JVoutdoors

M. Tonello said:


> Adam Bradley is correct- this new reg will not restrict the use of jigs for steelhead. The entire reason for this new reg is to help our Conservation Officers target illegal snaggers by making their favorite snagging tackle illegal. Our COs realize that anyone fishing a jig/waxie under a bobber is not snagging, simple as that.


Thanks Mr. Tonello. IMO, interpretation and preferential treatment have nothing to do with it. "Discretion" in enforcement and intent is the word others are looking for I believe. If someone mounts a defense for getting caught with a 5/0 treble on their pole at Homestead to the judge by saying "but their were other guys fishing with illegal tackle and they didn't get a ticket..." Well, good luck with that. Just like the guy who is driving 20 over in a pack of 5 cars and he gets pulled over and the ticket. Sucks being him. Good law and glad to see it.


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## mondrella

When this was brought before us to look at. It was to target the favorite snagging treble lead loaded ticklers. Along with the wad of yarn on a large treble. This order helps eliminate these blatant snagging methods. As far as what is next? More and more will be flossing. A very difficult issue in itself to eliminate. The only ticket that could be wrote is keeping a foul hooked fish. This new order helps with the intent to snag rules. The C.O.'s needed something to help enforce the current laws. Guys whine and complain about the blatant snagging taking place. These are known highly effective methods being used. 
If I remember correctly from what I have at home in my notes jigs would still be a legal method how it was wrote. The removal of the weighted trebles and yarn wad trebles makes it easier to stop those ripping fish.
What was submitted before the cold water committee had everyone's support. Even guest at the meeting. 
To attempt to snag is illegal this just gives it teeth.


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## kzoofisher

JVoutdoors said:


> Thanks Mr. Tonello. IMO, interpretation and preferential treatment have nothing to do with it. "Discretion" in enforcement and intent is the word others are looking for I believe. If someone mounts a defense for getting caught with a 5/0 treble on their pole at Homestead to the judge by saying "but their were other guys fishing with illegal tackle and they didn't get a ticket..." Well, good luck with that. Just like the guy who is driving 20 over in a pack of 5 cars and he gets pulled over and the ticket. Sucks being him. Good law and glad to see it.


Agree with everything here. A difference in intent is pretty clear between the guy floating a 1/32oz jig with a #8 hook and the guy dredging an 1 1/2oz with a 5/0. Don't see any trouble with the prosecution of the second case. Banning the "lures" entirely will keep away a large percentage of snaggers and they will quickly be replaced by law abiding citizens. With any luck some kids might even get introduced to fishing in the easy access areas like Tippy.


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## M. Tonello

Kzoo- you hit it on the head. Every fall during the salmon run, the phones here at the Cadillac office are inundated by law-abiding anglers who are frustrated with the situation at Tippy Dam where snagging and other illegal behaviors are rampant. A common comment is that they would love to take their kids down there but won't due to the negative behaviors. This reg change is for those folks and everyone else who wants to experience the awesome fishing the Tippy Dam area has to offer without having to put up with rampant poachers.


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## AdamBradley

Mr Tonello, nothing but respect for you and all that you do! Thanks bud! .... from the due-process side, where does it stand? Has it been signed, and what is next? Much appreciated!


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## stickbow shooter

I am glad to see it.


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## M. Tonello

AB- It went to the NRC for information last month, and it will be an action item for the April meeting. If they approve, it will go into effect for this coming fall.


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## Steelheadfred

mondrella said:


> When this was brought before us to look at. It was to target the favorite snagging treble lead loaded ticklers. Along with the wad of yarn on a large treble. This order helps eliminate these blatant snagging methods. As far as what is next? More and more will be flossing. A very difficult issue in itself to eliminate. The only ticket that could be wrote is keeping a foul hooked fish. This new order helps with the intent to snag rules. The C.O.'s needed something to help enforce the current laws. Guys whine and complain about the blatant snagging taking place. These are known highly effective methods being used.
> If I remember correctly from what I have at home in my notes jigs would still be a legal method how it was wrote. The removal of the weighted trebles and yarn wad trebles makes it easier to stop those ripping fish.
> What was submitted before the cold water committee had everyone's support. Even guest at the meeting.
> To attempt to snag is illegal this just gives it teeth.



Makes sense, allows CO's to enforce without having to see an illegal caught fish kept.


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## Ranger Ray

mondrella said:


> When this was brought before us to look at. It was to target the favorite snagging treble lead loaded ticklers. Along with the wad of yarn on a large treble. This order helps eliminate these blatant snagging methods. As far as what is next? More and more will be flossing. A very difficult issue in itself to eliminate. The only ticket that could be wrote is keeping a foul hooked fish. This new order helps with the intent to snag rules. The C.O.'s needed something to help enforce the current laws. Guys whine and complain about the blatant snagging taking place. These are known highly effective methods being used.
> If I remember correctly from what I have at home in my notes jigs would still be a legal method how it was wrote. The removal of the weighted trebles and yarn wad trebles makes it easier to stop those ripping fish.
> What was submitted before the cold water committee had everyone's support. Even guest at the meeting.
> To attempt to snag is illegal this just gives it teeth.


If you are going to make snagging illegal, it would only be common sense to help the CO's in enforcing it. 

Flossing needs to be addressed also, as it is nothing more than snagging itself. Maybe we need to outlaw flies also, as I know guys have been whining and complaining about the blatant flossing taking place. :evil:


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## AdamBradley

Ranger Ray said:


> If you are going to make snagging illegal, it would only be common sense to help the CO's in enforcing it.
> 
> Flossing needs to be addressed also, as it is nothing more than snagging itself. Maybe we need to outlaw flies also, as I know guys have been whining and complaining about the blatant flossing taking place. :evil:


The issue with flossing regs, is how exactly would it be put into writing without eliminating side drifting all together? It is about intent. Experienced COs know what guys are doing that have a 10 foot leader, and always set the hook at that "bite" at the very end of the drift. They will observe and if you rope it, write you up for snagging. I have seen it happen to a few dudes.

Besides, they need to tackle the ugliest beast first. What would you rather see; a fresh run mint chrome steelie early october getting drug in sideways on a tuna rod rigged with 100lb rope, gushing blood from its side from a "tickler".... or a skanky king come in, hooked close to the mouth, with jimmy-bob-johnson enjoying himself as he flosses them up, driving in from out of state fueling our economy?.... granted, the latter is not ethical, nor something I practice, but is much easier on the eyes, and a lot less to explain to your young kid you want to get into fishing for salmonids.

We can criticize the dnr and other decision makers often on other topics related to our fisheries, and i certainly do. However in this case, can you name a single effort as substantial as this, in regards to reducing snagging? If so, please educate me - I mean that sincerely. I have nothing but respect and appreciation with what Tonello and the others have done with this. It may not be perfect, and has some loopholes, but it takes a big chunk out of the ugliest of methods.


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## Ranger Ray

AdamBradley said:


> The issue with flossing regs, is how exactly would it be put into writing without eliminating side drifting all together? It is about intent. Experienced COs know what guys are doing that have a 10 foot leader, and always set the hook at that "bite" at the very end of the drift. They will observe and if you rope it, write you up for snagging. I have seen it happen to a few dudes.
> 
> Besides, they need to tackle the ugliest beast first. What would you rather see; a fresh run mint chrome steelie early october getting drug in sideways on a tuna rod rigged with 100lb rope, gushing blood from its side from a "tickler".... or a skanky king come in, hooked close to the mouth, with jimmy-bob-johnson enjoying himself as he flosses them up, driving in from out of state fueling our economy?.... granted, the latter is not ethical, nor something I practice, but is much easier on the eyes, and a lot less to explain to your young kid you want to get into fishing for salmonids.
> 
> We can criticize the dnr and other decision makers often on other topics related to our fisheries, and i certainly do. However in this case, can you name a single effort as substantial as this, in regards to reducing snagging? If so, please educate me - I mean that sincerely. I have nothing but respect and appreciation with what Tonello and the others have done with this. It may not be perfect, and has some loopholes, but it takes a big chunk out of the ugliest of methods.


Who criticized the DNR? You're reading things that aren't there. 

Read my first sentence, as it must not have sunk in.

Snagging is snagging. The analogy one is easier on the eyes than the other is funny though.


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## AdamBradley

Sorry if I misread your tone there bud. No offense intended, we are on the same page. I was just trying to convey that it is easier to ignore compared to a fish doing the Michael Jackson Moonwalk back to shore.


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## Fishndude

AdamBradley said:


> The issue with flossing regs, is how exactly would it be put into writing without eliminating side drifting all together? It is about intent. Experienced COs know what guys are doing that have a 10 foot leader, and always set the hook at that "bite" at the very end of the drift. They will observe and if you rope it, write you up for snagging. I have seen it happen to a few dudes.
> 
> Besides, they need to tackle the ugliest beast first. What would you rather see; a fresh run mint chrome steelie early october getting drug in sideways on a tuna rod rigged with 100lb rope, gushing blood from its side from a "tickler".... or a skanky king come in, hooked close to the mouth, with jimmy-bob-johnson enjoying himself as he flosses them up, driving in from out of state fueling our economy?.... granted, the latter is not ethical, nor something I practice, but is much easier on the eyes, and a lot less to explain to your young kid you want to get into fishing for salmonids.
> 
> We can criticize the dnr and other decision makers often on other topics related to our fisheries, and i certainly do. However in this case, can you name a single effort as substantial as this, in regards to reducing snagging? If so, please educate me - I mean that sincerely. I have nothing but respect and appreciation with what Tonello and the others have done with this. It may not be perfect, and has some loopholes, but it takes a big chunk out of the ugliest of methods.



Simple. Do what New York did, and limit leader lengths to 4 feet. It won't eliminate lining fish, but it will make it a lot harder to line fish with shorter leaders. After this fall's run, it might not matter a whole lot. Lots of speculation that the Kings on lake Michigan are just about done. Hopefully not, but there is strong evidence that the Alewives are dying out. 

Respect for the DNR. As someone who volunteered for the River Watch for many years (with Mr. Tonello @ son, a few times), I really appreciate how hard all the COs work, and how difficult their jobs can be, enforcing fishing regulations. Not many people at Tippy dam thank them for enforcing no-snagging regs. The River Watch hasn't occurred in a couple/few years. I would be happy to participate again, to help enforce the new regs. It is going to take some manpower to get the message across. 

I think the biggest win in the new regs will be that it will be possible to actually drift fish during the Salmon spawn. When almost everyone is lobbing big heavy lead "lures," and dragging them straight in, it is impossible to try to fish honestly among them.

Thought for the day. "If you can't get the fish to bite, it is okay to have a bad day of catching; and still have a great day of fishing." 

Those nasty spawning Kings are not fit for table fare, anyway. Sure some people eat them, but the fact remains - they suck as food. Even smoked. They do pull hard, though.


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## kzoofisher

I like the 4' idea. Word it something like, "weights must be rigidly affixed to the line and cannot be placed more than 4' from the furthest hook". This gives some leeway to anglers fishing under bobbers or targeting resident fish with dry flies. I would also like to see an informational campaign at fly shops. A press release from the DNR stating that if half the fish you hook are on the outside of the jaw you may be inadvertently snagging and posted prominently would no doubt get the subject discussed. I would bet that for every guy intentionally lining fish there are five that have no idea they are snagging. Hooking outside the jaw happens; I've seen it many times with plugs, vertical jigging 'eyes, ice fishing 'gills, with articulated flies, even with dry flies. Heck, I've even hooked fish in the tail with dry flies (now that's a refusal). It's just a part of fishing so long as you recognize the problem and release the fish.


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## METTLEFISH

Sounds like a plan!... after all, if you were to check the ECM's on their vehicles, none of those snaggers broke the speed limit on their way to the river either... The refusal for decades to enforce the laws on the books have lead to what the situation has been. I doubt any regulation would be effectively enforced. After all when was snagging outlawed?.... 1984 ish?...


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## kzoofisher

I should add that at last nights Conversations and Coffee in GR last night only two subjects met with unanimous approval. One was this new snagging rule and the other was the removal of a tiny creek in Benton Harbor from he designated trout stream list. This rule received very strong support including some cheers.


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## Julez81

kzoofisher said:


> I should add that at last nights Conversations and Coffee in GR last night only two subjects met with unanimous approval. One was this new snagging rule and the other was the removal of a tiny creek in Benton Harbor from he designated trout stream list. This rule received very strong support including some cheers.


I guess things look different through different eyes. It seemed to me that there was only 1 subject that folks had issue with, but even that was talked through until we had some ideas on how to work through it. Notes were taken, opinions and possible solutions brainstormed. The expanded C+R bass season met unanimous approval, not the delayed C+R which in the end both sides had agreed that with certain compromises they were ok with it. Everyone approved the work being done for Sturgeon on the Kzoo specifically the sites for riffles and glides, upcoming dam removals, and stocking plans for the future. As least that's how I remember it.

On some things many wished more could be done. On the subject of increasing Steelhead stocking and making more wells for hatchery use, the potential of a Steelhead Stamp was a idea offered from the gallery that was unanimously approved. Nobody was asking for something for nothing.


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## kzoofisher

I don't think there was a lot of contention on proposals, just some differences of opinion. The sturgeon habitat is already a work in progress so there wasn't anything to discuss but no one objected to it, that's true. Many opinions were offered on different subjects like big lake stocking, walleye management, inland lake habitat and river habitat which is what the meeting was for; so that the DNR could hear directly from anglers. I thought Jay did a really good job of answering questions and also leading the meeting so we kept moving along.

I offered the idea of a steelhead stamp and it was pretty quickly followed with walleye and bass stamps. I think this shows the Department that a lot of us are willing to pay more if the money can be earmarked. Sportsman groups already help with fish rearing and stocking, habitat improvement, enforcement etc., I really don't see why we can't help fundraise for specific projects like wells when the need arises.


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## AdamBradley

The only downside to a 4 foot leader length restriction is the guys swinging spey.... certainly can't put a "unless fished with a fly rod" detail in there, then we are back to good old chuck and duck.... like I said, it would be hard to put a gear restriction in place to reduce flossing. It's too bad, but I don't think gear restrictions are the approach.... I am all for educating the public on hook placement of a flossed fish. There are some guys that just don't know what they are actually doing and are being sold a fairy tale.


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## friZZleFry419

Can I still use a 12 ft leader with 4 flys?


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## kzoofisher

Do you add weight to Spey leaders? I was under the impression they come either sinking or floating but I've never Spey fished. A ban on lines that sink would be far too broad and eliminate common fy lines and fluorocarbon. 

As for a 12' leader with 4 flies, why not? So long as you don't have more than the total allowable number of hooks, usually 6, I don't see a problem with it. Are many people putting a 1/4oz $2 fly on as a weight for flossing?


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## AdamBradley

Spey does not have weight added. It's all in the tip.... I personally have never done it, just know it is a legit way to find aggressive fish much like plug fishing. I was just stating leaders are typically longer than 4 foot, which would not be legal under the 4 foot max leader length discussion.


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## kzoofisher

I agree with you and think any such reg would have to be worded carefully. For instance, would it leave the door open for spin fisherman to floss by using a quantity of splitshot on their mainline and no swivel? That's why I suggested wording it to specify from the weight to the furthest hook.

Edit: I just looked it up and the rule in New York is from the weight, not restricting leader length.


> The distance between the hook, artificial fly or lure and any weight attached to the line or leader, whether fixed or sliding, shall not exceed 4 ft.Weight shall not be added to the line, leader, swivels, artificial fly or lure in any manner that the weight hangs lower than the attached hook when the line is suspended vertically from the rod.


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## AdamBradley

Something like that could please both spey fishermen, side drift fishermen, and float fishermen alike. "If lead is attached, rigid or not, leader length not to exceed 4 feet".... Mr tonello, if you are still following this thread, any thoughts??? I would be very curious of your opinion and what you can do with this for us sportsmen.


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## M. Tonello

AB,
We have actually discussed the lining issue a few times, including leader length, but never came to any agreement that we should worry about that right now. In my mind the larger evil is the blatant snagging with blatant snagging gear. If someone is flyfishing, at least there is a chance that a salmon will bite (although I realize that with bedding salmon the chance is very remote). Also, flies are legit gear for other species like steelhead or browns lurking behind the beds. So this is a much less clear issue than blatant snagging with yarn/treble hook or ticklers. 

I realize lining has been regulated to some degree in other states, but my thought is let's see how the new regs go and move from there. You guys can certainly bring this up with our Coldwater Resources Steering Committee and have it discussed in that venue. Some members of this forum are on that committee.


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## METTLEFISH

M. Tonello said:


> AB,
> We have actually discussed the lining issue a few times, including leader length, but never came to any agreement that we should worry about that right now. In my mind the larger evil is the blatant snagging with blatant snagging gear. If someone is flyfishing, at least there is a chance that a salmon will bite (although I realize that with bedding salmon the chance is very remote). Also, flies are legit gear for other species like steelhead or browns lurking behind the beds. So this is a much less clear issue than blatant snagging with yarn/treble hook or ticklers.
> 
> I realize lining has been regulated to some degree in other states, but my thought is let's see how the new regs go and move from there. You guys can certainly bring this up with our Coldwater Resources Steering Committee and have it discussed in that venue. Some members of this forum are on that committee.


 
I don't see any regulation being enforced. Strange how that now, as the Salmon will be few and far between this issue has become so important.


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## AdamBradley

M. Tonello said:


> AB,
> We have actually discussed the lining issue a few times, including leader length, but never came to any agreement that we should worry about that right now. In my mind the larger evil is the blatant snagging with blatant snagging gear. If someone is flyfishing, at least there is a chance that a salmon will bite (although I realize that with bedding salmon the chance is very remote). Also, flies are legit gear for other species like steelhead or browns lurking behind the beds. So this is a much less clear issue than blatant snagging with yarn/treble hook or ticklers.
> 
> I realize lining has been regulated to some degree in other states, but my thought is let's see how the new regs go and move from there. You guys can certainly bring this up with our Coldwater Resources Steering Committee and have it discussed in that venue. Some members of this forum are on that committee.


Thanks Mark. Agreed, the bigger evil needed to be taken on first. Kudos!


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## Fishndude

METTLEFISH said:


> I don't see any regulation being enforced. Strange how that now, as the Salmon will be few and far between this issue has become so important.


Then you haven't paid enough attention. COs work tirelessly during the peak of the Salmon spawn, and are spread really thin. How many places, on how many rivers, stream, and creeks are conducive to snagging? How many COs are there to cover them all? RAP line, and the use of it by conscientious anglers is the best solution to date.

Also the peak of Salmon spawning coincides with the opening of small game/duck/bow hunting for deer seasons. They are spread _*really *_thin. Leaving good voicemails @ RAP line, to include good descriptions of snaggers, license plate numbers, and specifically describing their actions can be extremely helpful.


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## JVoutdoors

agree 100%. I fished near a group of professional flossers on the Betsie last fall. They were using very small flies and landing fish in such a careful way that while I was trying to see if they were hooked in the mouth or on the outside, I couldn't tell most the time. If I couldn't be sure fishing the same hole, how long would an undercover CO have to stand there to get probable cause to see them foul hook it and keep it?? Seems like they just kept the fish that no one was near them when they beached it and quickly unhooked it. Most of them took a break when the CO did come down out of the woods, while others floating like me kept fishing. This is why the new reg on just possessing certain gear is great. maybe someday leader length also like AB talked about.


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## METTLEFISH

Fishndude said:


> Then you haven't paid enough attention. COs work tirelessly during the peak of the Salmon spawn, and are spread really thin. How many places, on how many rivers, stream, and creeks are conducive to snagging? How many COs are there to cover them all? RAP line, and the use of it by conscientious anglers is the best solution to date.
> 
> Also the peak of Salmon spawning coincides with the opening of small game/duck/bow hunting for deer seasons. They are spread _*really *_thin. Leaving good voicemails @ RAP line, to include good descriptions of snaggers, license plate numbers, and specifically describing their actions can be extremely helpful.


Actually ALL LEO's are tasked with enforcing the laws of the State of MI. I do not hesitate to call Twp. or County LEO's in those situations. And as usuall... little interest. Lots of streams with the potential of a snagging problem. Few however draw the numbers of Anglers lol that the Big Manistee does. I find it commical that now, as the Salmon are facing extirpation from our waters they try so hard to stop the problem. The lack of enforcement of the snagging ban has led to the issues we now, and previously have had. Why now?...


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