# How far north could turkeys survive?



## Shop Rat (Apr 8, 2006)

I was told that turkeys would not survive the winters in the NLP if it wasn't for feeding stations. There are turkeys near my place from April until November(as far as I know). I figure they go somewhere and I don't see any sign of them in the winter. Also, how far north was their range originally?


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

What you were told was, depending upon average winter snow depths and the availability of wild foods, pretty much correct. With winter feeding, I've seen wild turkeys doing quite well in the eastern UP and in Alger and Marquette Counties. 

Wild turkeys do migrate, although it might not be more than a mile or so, they do migrate from known summer breeding and nesting areas to known winter feed areas, whether that's a swamp somewhere (again, with survival depending on snow depths and wild food availability) or a provided feeder. 

Anywhere in northern Michigan, whether it's just someone buying the corn out of their own pocket or an organized feeding program like ours, it's safe to say that if you see good numbers of birds the following spring, someone is feeding them. 

Their original range is thought to have been somewhere south of Clare/Bay City. The MI DNR stocked them in many parts of the north knowing that they would have be fed, or they'd be dead. It was an experiment to them. What they didn't realize was all the people in the north who would come to have a high regard for the wild turkey, and do whatever they could to ensure it's survival even to this day, some 35 years after they first introduced the first birds to northern Michigan.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

We have them all the way up by the Soo and we get more snow around here than the NLP and the baiting and feeding is near nill due to some laws the past couple of years. These birds have some of the biggest beards I've ever seen too, due to not being able to hunt them. Just goes to show how old they are though.


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## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

No turkey season in most of up?? I have not kept track and dont hunt there. Have seen them along I75 1/2 way from bridge to bridge. The ones I saw in Aug were no where as big as chicken and will not survive winter with much snow and a couple layers of ice in the snow.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

UPtracker-I know of at least two different groups, including a chapter of the NWTF, that are trying to feed the birds in that area, who knows how many private landowners that are feeding the deer are also feeding those turkeys. It is not illegal anywhere in the state of Michigan to feed wild turkeys during the winter. It is only illegal to bait a wild turkey during one of the turkey seasons. But you don't have any seasons, so it's never considered baiting. 

On the level, the Soo area does not get any more snow than most areas of the snowbelt area of the nw lower-ie., Boyne, Gaylord area. The Soo area does get winter earlier and spring later than we do, however. 

Extremely long beards are not an indication of a gobbler's age-beards can reach lengths of 10-12 inches in just a couple of years in good habitat. Long beards are an indication of a lack of rough terrain, ie., rocks, etc., or a lack of deep snow which causes the beards to gather snow due to moisture and warmth from the breast area, often causing the beard to break or even get pulled off. 

You don't have wild turkey hunting in the eastern UP because for many years the DNR has refused to admit there's wild turkeys in that area at all, claiming instead that those birds are released pen-raised birds that have survived. That's something I don't understand at all, if they're truly released pen-raised birds, than they SHOULD be hunted and removed from the environment, like the wild pigs up there. 

In truth, those birds are descendants of a stocking done in the middle 90's on the Hiawatha Club near Naubinway-those birds were from Iowa, and just didn't stay there-they didn't like the swampy habitat, preferring instead the ag areas of the areas around Pickford. 

It's also possible that some of the wild turkeys stocked by Ontario right around the Soo, Canada area for a number of years just flew across the river.

But they are wild, they are being fed in the winter, and they are surviving. The eastern UP should be added to the spring turkey hunt area. 

I wrote a couple of stories on this for MON way back in the late 90's...and they still haven't done a thing to bring the turkey hunters of the UP a spring season. 

Why-? Cause the DNR doesn't want to do anything that would promote artificial feeding of any kind. Sort of an oxymoron, tho, if it's ok in the northern Lower, which is where the TB threat is worst, than it should be ok in the EUP.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

If long beards indicate a bird a few years old, then what point are you trying to make? I was just observing that they are surviving a few years.

As for the feeding, the DNR really cut back on winter feeding up here for deer and therefore the birds are not getting fed. Some winters you have to have a permit to feed for "Wildlife Viewing" in the winter up here. These permits are sometimes hard to get too. Other wise I know people that have gotten tickets for "overfilling" their bird feeder because deer were feeding off of it in Jan/Feb.

As for snow, we can get up to 4 ft. on the ground while the Cheboygan/Gaylord area only has a foot and a half. Depends on the year obviously, but I believe we have way harsher winters up here.

Personally, I don't think we have the number to have a spring hunt. If we did have a hunt, it'd only consist of 10 tags or so if you ask me.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I don't want to argue with you. 

The point I was making about the gobbler's beards tells me more about the weather up there than any of the statistics, if you had all that much snow everywhere, those beards would never be that long at all. They'd freeze and break off. They do here all the time, but in the last few years, with much milder winters, we haven't seen as much as we did back in the early 90's. 

As for feeding, again, it's NOT illegal to feed wild turkeys, and as we've proven, there's all kinds of ways to feed a wild turkey and avoid feeding deer. And although you may think people aren't feeding deer, they are, everywhere. They just took it from the "front yard" to the "back yard", that's all. 

The population of wild turkeys, according to that EUP NWTF chapter I mentioned, is more than enough to support a spring hunt, somewhere around 2000+...remember, we only take gobblers in the spring, and the DNR traditionally puts way more tags out there than we have birds, so, what difference does it make? Especially if, as they believe, those birds are tame. 

Weather, again, you do have longer winters, but look up the statistics for the average amount of snowfall in your area compared to Gaylord-it's about the same, you may be even less. NOAA.


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

The only true way to judge the age of a turkey is by the length of its spurs.

The oldest turkey I have ever taken came off the Garden Penninsula in the UP. It was a huge bird that only weighed 17 lbs and probably would have never made it though the winter if the landowner hadn't been taking them corn when he was cutting firewood. 

It spurs were 1 3/8 inches but the beard was only 8 inches. The heavy snow and ice had broken alot of it off.

Beards on turkeys taken from the southern part of the state are generally in better shape and longer that the ones from the snow belt areas.


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## Chawazz (Jun 25, 2006)

Haven't seem big flocks, but spotted 1 to 4 birds near:

Autrain.
Harvey (near Marquette)
Curtis
and most intersestingly, on the "Seney stretch" of M-28. Far from where I would have suspected any feeding.

I'm starting to wonder if they aren't a bit more hardy than the biologist give them credit.  

Certainly many are surviving due to food supplied in the winter.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

In mid-June, I saw a hen with two poults right on the side of 28 on the fringes of Seney, too. Was on my way back from seeing my new ES pup. 

Got home, called an old friend who retired to a log cabin a mile or so north of 28, forgot the name of the road, but it's north of the Driggs Drainage, about a mile or so from where I saw those birds. 

He and his neighbors, just a couple of folks in the winter, have been feeding those birds, along with a handful of others, for the past 5 years or so during the winter. PM me and I'll send you his name.

Wild turkeys are opportunistic, and very resourceful, but only as much as Mother Nature will allow. I've seen enough dead, frozen birds that we couldn't find to put feeders on until it was too late to know that it takes, with your average healthy adult bird, about 4 weeks of bitter cold, deep snow (more than a foot or so) and no food, to kill them. Adult toms live a bit longer, depending on their size, we've seen dead poults in less than two weeks from the time the winter weather began.


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## Shop Rat (Apr 8, 2006)

For feed, is it just plain corn, or cracked corn? Is it better to mix buckwheat or wheat in there? I am not up there enough to have a feeding program, but I think it is interesting. I would not want them to rely on me and not get up there for a month or more. Right now they are really in my leftover buckwheat field. I left 1 1/2 acres of buckwheat to see what would happen. It is great for the turkeys, doves, and the kestral that is knocking down the doves. :corkysm55 

Thanks for all the information.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Don't try to feed if you can't be up there on a very regular basis-like every day. The worst thing you can do to a flock of wild turkeys when they become dependent on you (about February) is to have the feeder go empty with no one there to fill it up. It can also be very expensive, and I've seen way too many people figure that out too late-when the birds depended upon them-and quit feeding...that's also usually a disaster. 

We've also found that you cannot break the flock's pattern of moving to where ever they move to in the winter by just offering food-very often, they'll walk right past it and ignore it if that's NOT where they want to spend the winter. You have to remember there are other factors for them to consider besides food, like shelter and possible predators. 

Groups that have organized feeding, like MWTHA in the northern lower, Wildlife Unlimited in the UP, and some chapters of NWTF that hold special fundraisers apart from their regular functions to raise funds specifically to help out where they can in their own areas and others, have found that you must go to the turkeys-where ever that is. That often requires long searches on snowshoes or snowmobiles through miles of cold, snowy country. 

Instead, I would find out who's feeding in your area by talking to some of the year round residents, etc., and write them a check to help with their feeding. 

Where we do feed, we feed whole shelled corn, which is much less expensive than cracked corn. We've tried other feeds, but found we had the best success with the corn, which doesn't attract moisture real easily, and has the highest protein content. We only feed when absolutely necessary, ie., when there's a foot or more of snow on the ground for more than two weeks at a time...usually, from mid-December to April 1st here in the nw lower. 

We don't believe in, nor can we afford, to feed the birds for more than that. Wild turkeys will walk away from feeders whenever they can, preferring wild foods except for the occasional stop at a bird feeder, as long as they are available. 

Planting crops such as buckwheat, oats, etc., are very helpful for the birds both in the fall to fatten them up for the winter ahead and in the spring, to give them sustenance right after the snows have melted and they are moving back into their breeding territories.


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## joefsu (Jan 9, 2005)

On the topic of beard length and age. I shot a bird a couple years ago around Iron River (hometown) that had a beard of about 1 inch. It barely made it past the breast feathers, but the bird was a big mature tom. The spurs were about 1 1/4" and it had a perfectly symetrical tail. 

As for the birds not making it without feeding I totally agree that they wouldn't. I know both the NWTF and Wildlife Unlimited in Iron County feed birds. Also, numerous people feed them out of their own pocket. When one of the clubs feeds birds they usually put out two feeders. 1 feeder has corn (cracked corn I'm pretty sure) and the other has pee gravel to help with the grining in the gizzard. Since the dirt and gravel is usually covered with a couple feet of snow and frozen like a brick when the temps hit double digits on the negative side it is necessary to supplement rocks. Oh yeah, and the farm we hunt has about 100 birds at the feeders during the winters and when I drive home I start seeing turkeys a little ways before Garden Corners all the way to my house in Iron River. Those are also the areas that are open to turkey hunting though. 

Now on to the subject that noone feeds the birds because of the DNR's crackdown on baiting....I think you'd be ignorant to think that noone feeds turkey or deer for that matter without a permit. Heck, I know people that feed deer constantly right in the city limits. I don't condone this since it creates a hazzard for motorists and stinks up the yard, but my point is that the DNR is stretched thin and they can no way cover every square inch of the UP to check for feeding in the winter. 


Joe


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

We offer grit, too, usually the medium chicken grit you can guy in any feed supply, but that is something we supply out of our pockets as individuals, not something MWTHA provides. It's cheap-you can buy a whole winter's worth for $6 or so for a flock of 30 birds. 

In the Iron River area, grit is a matter of life and death. Here in the nw lower, we usually only have to offer during the worst parts of the winter, the rest of the time, the sun will melt the snow from sandy hillsides and from dirt roadsides-which the birds prefer to commercial grit anyway.


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## huntfish (Sep 9, 2006)

Shop Rat,

There are turkeys everywhere. I deer hunt in the U.P. just outside of Escanaba. And there are wild (real wild) turkeys around us. I talked to a C.O. up there and it has been confirmed, the turkey hunting is strong. I will be going to shoot a fall Tom this weekend. And, no there are no feeding stations. The turkey survive primarily on wintergreen along swamp edges.

So there are turkeys way north.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

No offense, but I'm going to suggest you call Craig Albright, the DNR's Wildlife Biologist out of Escanaba, and talk to him about how the wild turkeys in that area survive the winters...believe me, they can't make it on wintergreen-first off, the berries on wintergreen are not present year around, just for a short time in the fall, and although wild turkeys do eat forbs on occasion, it is not their predominant, nor preferred source of food on a year round basis. 

And it's kind of hard to get to wintergreen when it's buried under 3 ft. of snow. 

Wildlife Unlimited and at least one chapter of the NWTF are VERY active in Menominee, Delta, and Dickinson Counties-they are also feeding in Iron County, and into Alger and Marquette Counties as well now. 

Turkey hunting is very good in that area, has been in Areas M, N, and O of the UP for many years...in fact, that area doesn't see enough turkey hunters, and as of this fall, has several thousand fall turkey permits left over. And there are LOTS of feeding stations every winter in those areas...

Again, Craig Albright-DNR Escanaba office...


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## yoopertoo (Nov 23, 2005)

This has been an extremely interesting thread. I have been wondering how in the heck these birds survive the winter up here. It also seems to jive with where I see birds. I see them near Shingleton, in the Munising city limits, Rapid River truck trail and along M-28 towards Marquette. I never see them in the more remote parts of Alger county near Grand Marias or along H-58. There is no way the birds could survive the winter there by themselves.

BTW - The snow difference between the north shore of the UP and the south shore of the UP can be very big.


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## Shop Rat (Apr 8, 2006)

I went to MWTHA.NET and found alot of info. I would like to become a member. This year I was interested in a fall hunt, but there is not one in my area. I am seeing more turkeys now that I plant more plots, but I was interested to learn how they survive the winter. One statistic I learned is that it cost $13,000 to feed 10,000 birds on average. Some years with a mild winter they can survive without. 

Thanks.


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## frznFinn (Jan 25, 2004)

Well jeez you learn something new everyday. I never knew there were turkeys in the U.P. I was always told by my dad that they couldn't swim that far.:lol:


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Joefsu----More than likely with the beard being broken off even it was caused by beard rot, a maldy that happpens to some toms where the beard breaks off. I don't know if it can be seen but part of my 1 3/8 spurred turkey had about half of its beard broken off at 1 inch. The break is pointed at by the right spur in the picture.










Linda--- I have enjoyed a lot of wintergreen berrries during turkey chasing ever year. Found some of the bigest berries  (marble sized) in my life this spring after giving up on the biggest paint brush tom I have ever seen.:sad: 

As far as there being enough to sustain a flock of turkeys I have never seen that many in all my travels.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Why the desire to expand the birds natural range in the first place?
Is all the work and expense necessary?


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## yoopertoo (Nov 23, 2005)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Why the desire to expand the birds natural range in the first place?


Who cares what their "nartural" range was. I don't. Many animals don't live in their "natural" range now.



2ESRGR8 said:


> Is all the work and expense necessary?


So we can hunt them. The same reason we often manage forest for game species. I think this is a lot better reason then the antics we put up with for Kirtland's Warblers.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

yoopertoo said:


> Who cares what their "nartural" range was. I don't. Many animals don't live in their "natural" range now.


For example?
Who cares? Maybe the deer herd is being stressed because turkeys are browsing there food source? 



> So we can hunt them. The same reason we often manage forest for game species. I think this is a lot better reason then the antics we put up with for Kirtland's Warblers.


But couldn't you just hop into the pick'em up truck and head to a southern tier county and do the same? 
I'm on board with ya as to the KW antics as you put it but its hardly the same. If we didn't do what we do for the KW you would be talking about possibly exterminating a species, with turkeys its not the case.


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## HappyHawk (Nov 9, 2004)

We have them all over the place in Delta County in the South Central UP. TONS of Turkeys


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Not everybody can hop in the car and drive down to southern Michigan to hunt turkeys. In fact, most of us can't. 

We don't have the money, we don't have the time, and we can't get access to the private land needed to hunt turkeys in southern Michigan. 

Not to mention the fact that public land hunts, for safety reasons, are VERY restricted in southern Michigan. 

Wild turkey hunting in northern Michigan has a heritage-for more than 40 years folks have come up here from all over, including for most of those 40 years, from southern Michigan, to hunt the wild turkey on our millions of acres of public land. 

And we need to do everything we can to keep that. So, we do.


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## joefsu (Jan 9, 2005)

2ESRGR8 said:


> For example?
> Who cares? Maybe the deer herd is being stressed because turkeys are browsing there food source?


I don't think the deer are being hurt by what the turkeys eat. The deer are being hurt because they overbrowse themselves.


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## joefsu (Jan 9, 2005)

multibeard said:


> Joefsu----More than likely with the beard being broken off even it was caused by beard rot, a maldy that happpens to some toms where the beard breaks off. I don't know if it can be seen but part of my 1 3/8 spurred turkey had about half of its beard broken off at 1 inch. The break is pointed at by the right spur in the picture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. You're probably right. I've never heard of beard rot, but it sounds like what you described. 

Thanks again,
Joe


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Linda G. said:


> Not everybody can hop in the car and drive down to southern Michigan to hunt turkeys. In fact, most of us can't.
> 
> We don't have the money, we don't have the time, and we can't get access to the private land needed to hunt turkeys in southern Michigan.
> 
> ...


I'd like to shoot a grizzly bear in the U.P. too so how is this any different?

I can't afford to drive to the Yoop and its out of the Grizzlies natural range so should the DNR introduce the Grizz and expose all the other forest critters to it just so I can hunt it?
Fact is, too bad for me. I can't afford the time or money to fly to Alaska and hunt Grizzly so I'm out of luck. I guess if it really mattered to me I'd make it happen just like folks from the northern part of the state would if they wanted to hunt turkeys in their natural range of southern MI.
Not much different than pheasant hunting in MI. today. Time and effort are needed to secure access to the parts of MI. that still harbor a nice huntable population. Maybe I should petition the DNR to cut down all the Kirtland Warbler habitat and plant native prairie grasses and introduce ringnecks out of there natural range so I can hunt them on the vast acres of public land in northern MI..


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

This is a bit before your time, but WE (the landowners and conservation groups in NLP and UP) didn't introduce the wild turkey up here, Scott, the state of Michigan did. It was their idea, not ours. 

And we didn't ask them to-they did it back before they knew that the wild turkey couldn't survive on its own through 5 months of winter with 3 feet of snow on it. They thought then that wild turkeys needed large tracts of undisturbed forest lands, so they brought them up here.

That was back in the 60's. They didn't introduce the birds to southern Michigan (from OUR stock, btw) until the 80's.

Then the DNR and NWTF taught us how to hunt the wild turkey, and thousands and thousands of us adopted it as something just as important, even more important to lots of folks, as bird hunting or deer hunting. 

When the DNR realized that the birds needed help to survive the winters, they walked away. But we weren't about to lose something we'd come to love, so we did what we had to, and have ever since, to keep the birds going in the NLP and UP. 

Thousands of people, including businesses and folks who live downstate, make money off our spring hunt. But the DNR makes more than anybody, on all those licenses. Believe me, they don't want the wild turkey to go away up here, either. 

And why should it? Cause it's not native?? Baloney-better start looking at every thing else we hunt or fish in this state that's not native-like ringneck pheasants, brown trout, all those salmon, heck, even the brook trout in the NLP, most of the bass in the UP, and the whitetailed deer in a lot of its present range. 

In fact, most of the state's hatchery system, which costs us millions every year, is based on stocking fish that aren't native and won't reproduce on their own...at least the wild turkey isn't costing the state of Michigan anything at all. Again, they make money on the wild turkey. 

Fact is, much of Michigan's habitat, as it is now, is perfect for the wild turkey except for 3-5 months or so of the year in the NLP and UP. The forests have grown back, taking over the grasslands, and we don't cut it down or allow it to burn any more as we did when we had more grassland species.

So, we have turkeys. Southern Michigan has more than we do now, but it doesn't matter how many you've got if you can't get permission on private lands to hunt them. 

As for Kirtland's Warblers, a lot of us would be thrilled if they cut down all their habitat-which used to be habitat, when it was just scrub, stumps and grasslands when allowed to burn naturally, for sharptails and prairie chickens. 

Lots of states are hunting or fishing mostly non-native species. Take them away, you wouldn't have much hunting or fishing. 

Native, schmative. That's all drivel coming out of idealistic young minds in the universities. Doesn't work in today's world, and there's no returning, thanks to the human race, to the world that was Michigan 250 years ago.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Linda G. said:


> Native, schmative. That's all drivel coming out of idealistic young minds in the universities. Doesn't work in today's world, and there's no returning, thanks to the human race, to the world that was Michigan 250 years ago.


The days of Michigans forests dominant big game species being elk and moose, it's rivers rife with Grayling are forever gone. The venerated whitetail isn't even a native. The lakes with all their invasive species have been undergoing tremendous changes in the food chain. Biologists wee doing very well reacting to the invaders as the situations arouse, but recent developments make their job tougher, if not downright impossible. We have to be as wiling to adapt as the whitetail and the coyote.


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## yoopertoo (Nov 23, 2005)

2ESRGR8 said:


> For example?
> Who cares? Maybe the deer herd is being stressed because turkeys are browsing there food source? .


I doubt that. I think the only real overlap in food is mast. I don't think the Turkey in the UP compete significantly for that. In any event, I think the deer in the UP have much more to worry about in the Wolf population then the Turkey population.



2ESRGR8 said:


> But couldn't you just hop into the pick'em up truck and head to a southern tier county and do the same?


No thanks. Different world between the two. Believe me it is a real pleasure to dirve 20 or 30 miles on a road in the UP knowing that you can stop anywhere and hunt permission free. Sure the game populations are lower, but I love the experience. It is always an adventure up here.



2ESRGR8 said:


> I'm on board with ya as to the KW antics as you put it but its hardly the same. If we didn't do what we do for the KW you would be talking about possibly exterminating a species, with turkeys its not the case.


Those birds are niche species artificially propped up by habitat manipulation. Hell with'em. I'd rather see the Jack Pine cut and replanted with Red Pine (much more commercially viable), and then let normal soil rebuilding occur. Let a normal understory develope. You'd have a much RICHER ecosystem with more species then those stupid Jack Pine plains.


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## yoopertoo (Nov 23, 2005)

2ESRGR8 said:


> I'd like to shoot a grizzly bear in the U.P. too so how is this any different?


Difference is scale. I like to drive to nice places. The Keweenaw is a nice place. Tierra Del Fuego is a nice place. Supposed to have awesome trout fishing!!! I think I'll drive to the Keweenaw.

Turkey are easy. So why not. Notice we are now in the realm of being practical instead of talking about that "natural" range stuff. 

Grizz is a bad example in that they are one of those protected species that the tree huggers use to get their way in court. Any of those are bad ideas because the whole discussion changes when the court ties your hands. I'm talking game species we can hunt.



2ESRGR8 said:


> Maybe I should petition the DNR to cut down all the Kirtland Warbler habitat ...


Good idea! Where do I sign?


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## Wizard3686 (Aug 30, 2005)

well befor this goes way way off track to get back to the whole trukey thing i have seen them all over in baraga county im sure sum were let lose and i sure sum mated. one day i seen a couple hens along with like 20 babies. we use to see 30 or 40 of them everyday right down the road from our house but ppl fed them.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Nice post Linda, thanks for the reply.

I guess the jist of my questioning this is out of worry for the bird. I worry what will happen if man decides that he can't offer these winter feeding programs to what has become a large flock of birds in a range where it cannot survive without supplemental feeding.
I would hate to see a massive die off due to starvation someday.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

In our area, which is Area J, that's what MWTHA is all about. We're there for the folks who can't afford to do it themselves, and we start with the folks on low incomes, the farmers, and others like that first. 

We constantly worry what would happen if we were unable to raise the funds needed annually to support our turkey populations just in this part of the state.

But, so far, thankfully, it hasn't happened. The sportsmen and women of Michigan are a very caring and concerned lot. 

But every year, we do lose birds if the weather is obnoxious for any length of time. That's a sad fact that we can't avoid. Birds that we couldn't find, birds that we didn't know were there, birds that we thought were being fed that weren't. It happens. 

But not in large scale for the most part. And every spring, Mother Nature has her own way of limiting populations by occasionally giving us cold, wet springs like we had in 2002 and 2003. We don't get much of a spring hatch. 

So we've been able to handle what we've got, for the most part. As long as the sportsmen and women of Michigan continue to support us, and continue to be aware of the needs of the wild turkeys in deep snow areas, they'll be ok. 

And the DNR will continue to make money from them.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Linda G. said:


> And we need to do everything we can to keep that.


Only if it isn't detrimental to the natural ecosystem.

-- 
lp


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

ESOX said:


> The venerated whitetail isn't even a native.


The whitetail certainly is native to Michigan.

-- 
lp


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Do some research, prior to the arrival of the white man, whitetailed deer were only present in some portions of southern Michigan. Elk, woodland caribou and moose were the predominant species in northern Michigan and the UP.

Pescadero-what do you mean, detrimental to the habitat? How could they be? If hunted and managed properly, they don't do damage to farmer's crops, and they fit perfectly into the habitat we have now. They're birds, not hooved ungulates.


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## Jeffrey Sr (Jan 22, 2004)

ESOX said:


> The days of Michigans forests dominant big game species being elk and moose, it's rivers rife with Grayling are forever gone. The venerated whitetail isn't even a native. The lakes with all their invasive species have been undergoing tremendous changes in the food chain. Biologists wee doing very well reacting to the invaders as the situations arouse, but recent developments make their job tougher, if not downright impossible. We have to be as wiling to adapt as the whitetail and the coyote.


Very well said.


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## yoopertoo (Nov 23, 2005)

The numbers were greatly less then they are now, but I'm pretty sure there were whitetails historcally throughout michigan. 

http://www.upwhitetails.com/history.html

Big timber and deep snow just means the ranges holding poulation was MUCH less. What makes anyone believe whitetails were not found in the UP in lets say 1600?


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Linda G. said:


> Do some research, prior to the arrival of the white man, whitetailed deer were only present in some portions of southern Michigan. Elk, woodland caribou and moose were the predominant species in northern Michigan and the UP.


...and that would certainly make them native.



Linda G. said:


> Pescadero-what do you mean, detrimental to the habitat? How could they be? If hunted and managed properly, they don't do damage to farmer's crops, and they fit perfectly into the habitat we have now. They're birds, not hooved ungulates.


I said detrimental to the ecosystem, not habitat. Do they compete with ANY other animals for food? Nesting sites? etc?

I really don't know - but I think it is important that one weight the cost to ecosystem along with the benefits.

-- 
lp


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## Matthew (Oct 30, 2003)

I Would like to know how you feed Turkeys in the TB Zone. How do you make it deer proof? If you put up a corn feeder and say it is for Turkeys you will get a ticket. If there is a way you can feed turkeys in the TB zone and not get a ticket I would like to know. Since we were forced to stop feeding turkeys they have disappeared. There is one person that feeds them but he gets the feed from the NWTF and the DNR turns there head. You see a lot of deer hanging around in the winter time on his property along with about 300 turkeys.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Do they compete...or do they share...well, depends on how many animals they've got to share it with. If there are too many deer in an area, then they're competing. If there are too many turkeys, then they're competing. That's what hunting and depredation permits are for. There's VERY few depredation permits issued for wild turkeys, ever, but a LOT issued for deer. Turkeys don't eat a third what a deer will on a daily basis. 

Quail proponents may insist that wild turkeys encroach on a nesting area, I've heard that about ruffed grouse nests, also. But a series of research studies have proven these wild theories to be incorrect. If quail and grouse are having problems in an area, it's because of a lack of habitat, not too many turkeys. 

It's easy to feed wild turkeys in the TB area, or any area. We simply put the barrels (we don't use automatic feeders that spray corn) on an elevated platform that a deer can't reach, but turkeys can fly up to and stand on. 

Go to http://www.mwtha.net, click on the photo gallery, and you'll see a photo of a feed barrel on an elevated platform there. 

In some areas, people just put the corn out every day, twice a day, when the birds are present, then clean up what's left. That's how dedicated these folks are. We offer a pretty exact formula of a wild turkey's daily food intake (1/4 pound per bird per day) that, when used, means there will be very little, if any, left to clean up at all.


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## joefsu (Jan 9, 2005)

Don't think I'm way off base, but I think I remember my biology/ecology teacher telling me that Grizzly bears were native to Michigan way back when. Kind of when the elk and what not were around.

Just thought I'd add this to the tangent we seem to be on. :lol:


Joe


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