# Is Gout a Problem



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Had a long chat this morning with the DNR's wildlife pathologist, Tom Cooley. I called him yesterday regarding several issues, and I have several pages of notes here, will try to unscramble them all:

Two adult hen turkeys, one weighing 10 pounds, the other 8, which is, as expected, slightly light, but normal in the winter in northern Michigan, were collected from a Hayes Township, Otsego County residence on April 5, 2004. 

Adult hens normally weigh approximately 11-12 pounds. The two collected were the best representations for necropsy of 10 birds found dead by the landowner over a short period of time-probably a week or so, Cooley didn't know anything about the other birds. 

Necropsy showed that although both birds were in decent physical condition, with lots of body fat, one died of air sacculitis, a respiratory infection similar to the human variety of influenza or pneumonia, (which can happen to even the healthiest of us), and is fairly common in turkeys all over the state, not just in northern Michigan, the other died of complications from visceral gout, which Cooley has also seen before in Michigan, but did not recall ever having specimens from northern Michigan prior to this event. 

Visceral gout is usually a symptom of several possibilities, none of it based on too much food or too rich of a diet. It can kill, obviously, whether some turkeys recover or simply deal with it, as humans do, Cooley didn't know, dealing, as he said, "only with dead animals". 

Corn, if anything, is low in protein, he said, and said it was very unlikely that the bird died as a result of too much corn. But here's where it gets complicated-if the bird was on a diet of STRICTLY corn, with no other foods to compensate for vitamin deficiencies, etc., then it is possible that the gout came from that, in certain individuals more prone to it than others. Sort of like some people can eat only beef, others can't. This particular bird had a very high protein count in its body, which gout causes-the body simply can't process the protein, so it builds up in the body in lethal amounts. 

A diet of strictly corn, which very possibly may have been the case here, can cause vitamin deficiencies in certain individuals, or possibly, in related individuals, such as is the case with a wintering flock of turkeys, a number of individuals who are prone to this condition. 

So, if those birds were eating only corn for long periods of time, with nothing else available, which is very possible with our very deep snow depths last winter that began in January and didn't end in some areas around Gaylord until mid-April, especially if the landowner didn't have other foods available such as sunflower seed, thistle, millet, etc., from a nearby bird feeder, and the birds that died were related with a similar body structure that allowed for an unnaturally high protein level to build up in their bodies, that's where the gout probably came from. 

Whew...you have no idea what I had to do to break this down into English...

Now, there is one more possibility-that there was some sort of toxin or substance in the corn that raised protein levels in the birds' bodies, again, probably because they were genetically or otherwise prone to it. As we know, there's a number of things in commercial corn products that are injected for anti-biotic and other health benefits that are approved by the USDA and generally safe for use. But it's sort of like an allergy-some critters might not be able to handle it, just as some people can't be around pollen. 

Tom told me an interesting story of a flock of ravens that were turned over to him for pathology not too many years ago-they had also died of visceral gout. From what, who knows-ravens get into everything. But one thing is certain, it's highly doubtful anyone was feeding those ravens a diet of strictly shelled corn. 

So, Cody, I hope this gets your attention, and takes care of your questions-we have asked Tom to please make us aware of ANYTHING strange that is submitted to his lab from the turkeys in our area. He has not heard of anything like this in northern Michigan since then. But he has had a handful of occurences in other parts of the state. 

As for turkeys in Hayes Township, I was told to tell you about Rick Riley's brother in law, who last week shot a huge tom with more than an 11 inch beard in Hayes Township. We fed in numerous locations over there this winter. If you are interested, I can get you more specific locations with a couple of phone calls. 

There's still quite a few birds in that area, although I agree with you that numbers, particularly in Lakes of the North, where someone must have died or moved, are down.

Linda


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## codybear (Jun 27, 2002)

Thanks for clearing that up Linda!
I still think its amazing that the ones' directly involved with Turkey habitat and survival knew nothing and were basically kept out of the loop on this one. Kinda let us all know how much communication really goes on and probaly thesame for other species such as the deer heard.

I realize there are still some birds in the area and some rather large one's to boot. My concern is what's happening in my region over-all, which I'm sure you can understand. A few Year back they expanded the unlimited Doe permits from DMU 452 to Otsego county. Since then, it has had such a big impact here were just not seeing deer period. Its not that the heard was reduced to impliment QDM, its that they basically wiped the heard out in general. Now, as you agree, the Turkey numbers are also down over here. I live in God's country yet God's creaters seem to be disappearing and as I said a few posts up, I think I had more wildlife in my yard when I lived in the suberbs of Lavonia. With communication like we just witnessed, I'm enclined to say they dont have a clue whats going on.

CB


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

The DNR is an organization made up of primarily scientists, and it's a scientific belief, sometimes very true, that your average lay person, which would be you and me, hasn't got a clue. For many years we offered to be more closely involved with the DNR on various projects involving the wild turkeys that we KNOW they could have used volunteer help on, and in some cases, they would take advantage of that, but usually, since none of us are "trained" in the scientific sense, it was strictly DNR staff that was called upon. Whether they knew anything about wild turkeys or not-most didn't. But they were staff-there may also have been liability issues, but I don't think that was as much of a concern 20 years ago as it is now.

It has also been my experience that no matter how much time we spend with the turkeys and other wildlife, from which we garner a great deal of knowledge, the average "lay person" isn't given any credibility by scientific persons for having that knowledge.

I remember a certain biologist up here a few years ago who once said to another member of MWTHA-how does Linda Gallagher find out about all these strange things in the turkeys (at the time the subject was a domestic turkey that had bred with wild toms and produced half-wild partially white poults, and in another instance, a hen turkey with definitively male characteristics), and he was told "Because she's out there with the turkeys"...to that, that particular biologist had nothing to say...

The DNR is also struggling with their public image. You have to remember that many people regard the agency only as the Gestapo, big government, and generally regard them with a very jaundiced eye, and they want as little contact with any type of "government" as possible. Some people are downright nasty, much of it unwarranted, especially with the DNR folks in the field who love their work and are only trying to do what's best for our wildlife. And a basic unfamiliarity with the DNR and other government agencies is also a big problem-people don't realize that these folks, paid for by YOUR tax dollars, are there to serve YOU, not to make your life more miserable. Many folks like you and me are so far removed from any knowledge of the DNR and other government agencies they don't even know who to call when they need help or have questions...

All of this has tended to remove many folks within the DNR from what's really going on out there and what people think. They tend to be reserved in public contacts. And in reality, they don't have to let us know anything, but the world would work better if they did. 

BUT 

That is beginning to change. Becky Humphries, our new DNR director, has placed public outreach and education as one of her highest priorities. I think it has been a bit tough for the DNR to figure out how to go in this direction, they think re-opening offices and holding forums and meetings that very few people even know about, are interested in attending, or are willing to take it upon themselves to visit, is the answer. The DNR appears to be waiting for us to go to them, when in reality, they need to come to us. 

The answer is in being out there, one on one, talking to people, being seen, and showing up on forums like this one. But it's not going to happen overnight, change always comes slowly to government, and even more slowly to scientists. 

Particularly when budgets have been slashed by two thirds, and personnel reduced by half-your average DNR wildlife personnel is now so absolutely buried in paperwork just from their day to day things that getting into the field to talk to people and really find out what's going on is becoming an impossibility. 

So, if they want to continue to do anything positive at all, due to circumstances beyond their control, like very constrained budgets, the DNR IS beginning to reach out to folks like us for assistance, information and education...we just need to prove ourselves worthy of the trust they are placing in us. 

Make sense??

I would like to see the DNR make much more use of the outdoor media than they do, but there are issues there, as well-and especially with members of the mainstream media who just can't seem to get the info out there correctly. There are some within the DNR who have been "burned" often enough they want nothing to do with the media, in any form. And there are members of the media who appear to have big grudges against the agency, and no matter what it is the DNR is doing, they are portrayed as being thorns instead of roses, or even what it actually is...I was, and am, very good friends with Brad Wurfel, the DNR's recently departed press secretary, probably the best they've ever had, and learned about his job first hand. Talk about caught between a rock and a hard place...


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