# Doesnt ANYBODY prefer public land?



## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

The thread If you could buy land anywhere.. has prompted me to dig up this old link. 
If nothing else read Vermillions comment below the article. 
I have to think of an old saying when I think of our state land: If you dont use it youll lose it.

http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2011/06/legislation_aimed_at_limiting.html


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## aquanator (Dec 1, 2005)

We hunted public land for decades, and now have hunted private land for the last 18 years. We thoroughly enjoyed both, and got deer consistently in both.

But having done both, once you have private land it's so much better in so many ways. No comparison really.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

You could have 1000 acres of private land with high fences and you would still have to deal with idiots. I take my chances on public land anymore, I hike in about a mile and it is pretty quiet. Once you have private land all of the neighbors become deer management professionals and try to tell you how many deer to shoot and their version of APR.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

I will hunt public land but very little and usually out of state. 
I lease property in Michigan do that is one reason I don't hit public too often. The other reason is the amount of work it takes to achieve the goals I have is much more difficult on public land here in Michigan. It's not that I couldn't do it but because I lease, I just don't have to put in that kind of time scouting public land. 
Only do many hunters have access to a private property and that can put things in your favor.


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## old graybeard (Jan 19, 2006)

I've hunted public land in the UP for many years with no regrets but I do own private land at home.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

old graybeard said:


> I've hunted public land in the UP for many years with no regrets but I do own private land at home.


Same here, I own land and a camp in the upper Plus own land and a home in the lower. But I still hunt public land in both areas with great success.


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## ducksarge (Jul 3, 2011)

Public land does have some advantages over private, I have access to much more public land than private. I hunt each about 50/50. The private lands that i have access to are smaller, anywhere from 50-200 acres or so. BUt when I go up north to hunt on public land, it just seems more like hunting to me.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Robert Holmes said:


> You could have 1000 acres of private land with high fences and you would still have to deal with idiots. I take my chances on public land anymore, I hike in about a mile and it is pretty quiet. Once you have private land all of the neighbors become deer management professionals and try to tell you how many deer to shoot and their version of APR.


Lol....That's funny stuff there..I'm pretty sure your in the rare minority. If anything there is a lack of management professionals in the private sector. The only ones I know are on MS....&#128513;


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## perchpile88 (Dec 30, 2009)

I love the hiking, wandering, glassing, and unknown that public provides. There is too much opportunity out there for me to not hunt because of wind or what not.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I love hunting public land. The variety of habitat and room to roam are incredible. I think you guys that are confined to small parcels are missing out.....and yes, a couple hundred acres is a tiny parcel.

On another note, make sure you catch the second article....great stuff!
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/ind...ing_of_archery_sea.html#incart_special-report


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

I'd prefer public land more if the APR were more strict to the tune of 4points to a side and at least to the ears in width.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

old graybeard said:


> I've hunted public land in the UP for many years with no regrets but I do own private land at home.





perchpile88 said:


> I love the hiking, wandering, glassing, and unknown that public provides. There is too much opportunity out there for me to not hunt because of wind or what not.


You are right, I have thousands of acres to access maybe millions, So that means I have hundreds of potential stands sites. I allways want to see what's over the next ridge so I am allways scouting and roaming.I have areas in the upper that I am the only person for miles. When I was younger I use to love tracking deer as my preferred way of hunting. I could walk for days and never cut another human track . Now a days it's harder to find spots like that but I have a few.


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## bucknasty11208 (Jan 21, 2009)

These days I hunt exclusively on public land. I have hunted a piece of private property in Eaton county for a few years and saw lots of deer. It was fun hunting and I even killed my first two bow bucks there. But with that being said, I'll stick with bow hunting the HNF in the NELP. Deer numbers are less but it's hard hunting and when you bag a good one with your bow, you feel just that much more accomplished.
Besides, there are plenty of nice bucks running around on public land.


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## Wandering arrows (Dec 20, 2009)

I enjoy both , love the habitat work and the scouting on private and the element of surprise on public


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## Locked and Nocked (Oct 30, 2010)

I prefer to hunt public land but mostly outside of Mi. I have to both Ohio and Kansas and the public land there is better than the private in Mi. I saw 5 shooter bucks in 5 days on Kansas public land this year. It really is quite amazing and the cost (except for the tag) is quite a bit less than most would imagine.

I do like hunting public in Mi but with the hunter numbers we have here it just does not compare in terms of quality. Fun none the less.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

In a remote area I'd enjoy hunting land. On the other hand, I'd give up firearm deer hunting before I hunted public land here in Hillsdale County.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I agree hunting on public land in the lower during gun season blows.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

Since moving to southern Michigan 11 years ago, I have done more deer hunting on public land than I ever did in northeast lower Michigan. 

One of the problems with much of the public land in southern Michigan is that there is not enough of it for number of people who would like to hunt it. The reason that the public land hunting is better in states like Kansas, Minnesota, or wherever is not because the land in Michigan sucks or blows it is because there is more land and fewer hunters in those states.

BTW: Some of the public land in southern Michigan provides very good hunting.


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## itchn2fish (Dec 15, 2005)

I enjoy hunting on both private and public land. I hunt/fish/gather each about 50/50, but actually prefer public land.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

John Singer said:


> Since moving to southern Michigan 11 years ago, I have done more deer hunting on public land than I ever did in northeast lower Michigan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The DNR has stated an intent to increase public land in the SLP. I think it would be a good idea to sell some in the north and purchase in the south, I think the economy may be slowing thugs though.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

swampbuck said:


> I love hunting public land. The variety of habitat and room to roam are incredible. I think you guys that are confined to small parcels are missing out.....and yes, a couple hundred acres is a tiny parcel.
> url]



Missing out???
I think you are missing out.


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## ratherboutside (Mar 19, 2010)

I love public land but to be effective hunting it you need time. Time is something I am short on these days. I like it for grouse hunting though. That is one reason I don't have time to scout.


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## thill (Aug 23, 2006)

I don't believe anyone would seriously choose to hunt a piece of public ground over private, if we're talking apples to apples, for example 200 acres of public vs 200 acres of private.


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## >WingIt< (Nov 16, 2011)

Sign me up for public. My reason is that it is available to anyone. Its all about putting in time. Cyber scouting weeks, months, even close to a year in advance. Marking where beds should be, pinch points, funnels, and food. Then putting boots on the ground to confirm it. Locating good animals and then closing the distance and getting it done. It gives you the advantage to be mobile. Having tons of stand sites allowing you to hunt them when conditions dictate not because this is "my only weekend to hunt so I have to sit". Killing an animal that everyone had access to but you got because you put in your due diligence is THE best feeling. I got a taste of that feeling this year for the first time after half a year of scouting. I feel that if you can consistently get it done on public land you are one bad ***** hunter. A title I hope to earn in the following years. 


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Even though I own private land, I still hunt deer on public land a lot every year. I like to scout and find new places, but I can't do that on my property. I do all my bird hunting on public land and really appreciate the high quantity of public lands in MI.


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## Chuck (Sep 24, 2000)

I guess it depends on your goals. I love hunting public because of the thousands of acres to roam around in. There are vast areas I have hunted for 30 years and Im still learn new things about them. Some of the wood blocks I hunt are 4-6 square miles. My favorite are large swamps, just something about the swamps .

But one day Im hunting an oak ridge saddle, then a clear cut, then a creek bottom, then a drain, then a river... well you get the idea its never ending on where. I couldnt own enough land to give me the same experience. I have seen some real giants on state land too over the years. Used to see a lot more than I do now though. Deer numbers are very low on the public land I hunt. I also really like to figure new areas out. 

I own 10 acres and hunt that very sparingly and dont get me wrong I love hunting that too as I see more deer and bucks are way bigger there too on average. That has more to do with soil type and over all habitat I suspect. I also enjoy the habitat work that i do. Although some of the areas I hunt I dream of taking a chainsaw to them .


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

There are thousands of acres of national forest land in the LP and much of it is very lightly hunted. Matter of fact, this year the public land I hunt had less pressure than the private. Sure, you will see some guys on opening day but during bow, muzzy and late gun season I rarely see anyone and the deer will still move during the day. Takes a lot more work scouting but once you find a good spot or two and can keep them secret you can have good hunts year after year, AND you won't have to deal with the guy on the adjoining 40 hunting your line or whining about whether you hunt QDM or not and all that drama.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

I'll throw into this discussion what I see as a huge downside to owning property and not being willing to hunt public land. I lived in NE lower Michigan for more than 20 years. That region of the state was, for a long time, known as club country. Many of my friends and acquaintances were were either property owners or members of hunting clubs. For many of them, the only hunting that they ever did and the only place they ever hunted were their hunting camps. 

Some of them, their idea of deer hunting was to put a pile of carrots in front of a coop. Early in the morning on November 15, they would wake up early at camp, shake off the hangover from last night. The would then dress up like a carrot and go out and sit in the coop. They would then make all the sounds that a carrot makes, hoping that a deer would wander by to try to eat the carrots and then they would shoot it.

My point is this, some people when they invest in property feel obliged to spend all their hunting time there at their investment. For some it works. For other it is stifling. Some have no idea that there is a whole big world out there to explore and learn. It is possible to hunt on public land. It is possible to knock on some doors and get permission to hunt.

Sitting in a coop staring at my own little piece of earth is not my idea of hunting.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

I really shouldn&#8217;t tell this but&#8230;since somewhere in the late 90&#8217;s I&#8217;ve been getting braver about the length of time I leave my trailer on state land&#8230;..

However&#8230;. I NEVER build a camp fire. I dump my plastic toilet when I periodically go home. I burn all paper stuff in a Weber grill with a cover, and the non-burnables go home with me. I figure the DNR pretty much knows all this as they haven&#8217;t been so nice to a few others up there. 

I&#8217;m alone at the end of a 200 yard two track off a county road on the high banks of a picturesque creek even though there&#8217;s plenty of room around me for several other trailers. I was somewhat nervous the first couple years at night, but not anymore. 

There is a group of bow hunters from a town nearby that camp (across the county rd.) for the last two weeks of bow season and they provide all the camaraderie I need. I share their HUGE campfire every night and they have a last night party with their wives, relatives and friends bringing a banquet. 

Last year I found my first ever Morels, 8 I think, in one spot, not 100 yards from my trailer, that was a BIG thrill!


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## kstout (Dec 26, 2005)

I own land in Mecosta county, but any time I want to hunt for old mature bucks I head for public land, either in the UP or Ontario.


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## Jabswitch (Sep 15, 2011)

Public land can be more fun. There is room to roam and scout.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

thill said:


> I don't believe anyone would seriously choose to hunt a piece of public ground over private, if we're talking apples to apples, for example 200 acres of public vs 200 acres of private.


That isn't a choice we are usually presented with in the far north. Our choice is more often 40 or 80 acres of private vs 40 to 50 thousand acres of public.

With the lower deer densities common up here, the former is a game of bait and wait. The latter is a game of going out and finding them.

-na


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I suspect that most of those so critical of public land, have only had expierience on the small southern parcels


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## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

Public land used to be a lot more fun....especially when there were a lot more hunters. They managed to keep the deer moving all season long.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

swampbuck said:


> I suspect that most of those so critical of public land, have only had expierience on the small southern parcels


You suspect that only because you imagine it. You make up such concepts to fit your "us and them" construct of the world. 

In fact I don't know if I know anybody among my landowning friends who has not hunted public land.

Other than a few farm families that have passed land from generation to generation, everyone I know graduated from permission/public land hunting to leasing and/or owning. Most of us hunted public land at some point in our lives, and many of us still do. We know what it is like to hunt both public and private. 



> most of those so critical of public land,


In fact, I would argue that if you search on these forums, *most of those who are critical of hunting public land are in fact current public land hunters who bitch and moan about how much it sucks* instead of going out and finding better spots, improving their skills, or pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and leasing or buying.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

bioactive said:


> You suspect that only because you imagine it. You make up such concepts to fit your "us and them" construct of the world.
> 
> In fact I don't know if I know anybody among my landowning friends who has not hunted public land.
> 
> ...


100% agree with Bio's last statement. A matter of fact I am shocked by the response on this thread by the pro public land guys. All I've been reading on these forums the last couple years in the public land category is somebody has stolen my stand, or some slob left a bunch of garbage, and there just isn't any deer. Some of these posts are surprising. I am by no means anti public land. Everyone's situation is different.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

bioactive said:


> You make up such concepts to fit your "us and them" construct of the world.


:lol: Just spit my coffee all over my computer. That's funny coming from you. 



> The ultimate end of any ideology is totalitarianism


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

motdean said:


> Public land used to be a lot more fun....especially when there were a lot more hunters. They managed to keep the deer moving all season long.


FINALLY!:woohoo1:....many know it's true but don't want to admit it!
The good old days of hunting!


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

Nick Adams said:


> That isn't a choice we are usually presented with in the far north. Our choice is more often 40 or 80 acres of private vs 40 to 50 thousand acres of public.
> 
> With the lower deer densities common up here, the former is a game of bait and wait. The latter is a game of going out and finding them.
> 
> -na



Referring to your signature, have you heard Joe Elys version?


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## NorthWoodsHunter (Feb 21, 2011)

There is something to the big woods of the north that is hard to match in michigans many smaller parcels. As a younger hunter I don't have the means to purchase a large piece of hunting property. In the meantime endless state land and smaller leases will fill the need. 

Yes you have to deal with some idiots, but you also have the freedom to move, pick up and find a new piece of ground if you're not happy where you're at. With a purchased piece a neighbor can ruin the hunting pretty quickly as evident from a lot of the posts on here. Not a lot of options once that happens but to sell or hope that they do.


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## thill (Aug 23, 2006)

Nick Adams said:


> That isn't a choice we are usually presented with in the far north. Our choice is more often 40 or 80 acres of private vs 40 to 50 thousand acres of public.
> 
> With the lower deer densities common up here, the former is a game of bait and wait. The latter is a game of going out and finding them.
> 
> -na


 
Yes, you are stating the obvious. I don't know what the OP had in mind when framing his question, but I interpreted his question as "which do you prefer based on it's own merit". Which is why I said when comparing apples to apples...acres to acres....I find it hard to believe anyone would prefer to hunt public over private. The benefits of private far outweigh anything public land has to offer. 

We all know there's more public land available to us than anyone person could possibly own. So saying you would prefer to hunt 50,000 acres of public instead of hunting 80 acres of private is a no brainer. 

And for what it's worth, I scout and hunt a lot of public land....a lot, but when I get an invite to hunt private, I jump on it.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Having a couple hundred acres of private to hunt, I still enjoy the public. There is something about going into a new area, learning the terrain, and the movement of animals. Something about not having named every deer on the property, and not knowing when and where they move. People are missing out on the experience of the natural movement of deer, not enticed by food plots, hinge cuts and funneling manipulation. I call it, the Au Natural Experience. Think I will push for the elimination of, trail cams, food plots, hinge cuts and funneling. People really are missing out seeing deer in their natural state. We need to force them to see what they are missing.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

sniper said:


> 100% agree with Bio's last statement. A matter of fact I am shocked by the response on this thread by the pro public land guys. All I've been reading on these forums the last couple years in the public land category is somebody has stolen my stand, or some slob left a bunch of garbage, and there just isn't any deer. Some of these posts are surprising. I am by no means anti public land. Everyone's situation is different.


With 60 years hunting public land Ive seen it all and done my share of complaining along the way but owning land has its problems also. 
No doubt for those of us that put up with public land theres something there that trumps those problems. Like. problems that turn into great stories to tell over and over in the coming years. :lol:


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## itchn2fish (Dec 15, 2005)

beetlebomb said:


> Referring to your signature, have you heard Joe Ely&#8217;s version?
> 
> The Road Goes On Forever - Joe Ely - YouTube


Great jam! I love hunting both private & public land. I am blessed to be able to do both. Michigan's public lands are such a great asset for all of us.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

NorthWoodsHunter said:


> There is something to the big woods of the north that is hard to match in michigans many smaller parcels. As a younger hunter I don't have the means to purchase a large piece of hunting property. In the meantime endless state land and smaller leases will fill the need.
> 
> Yes you have to deal with some idiots, but you also have the freedom to move, pick up and find a new piece of ground if you're not happy where you're at. With a purchased piece a neighbor can ruin the hunting pretty quickly as evident from a lot of the posts on here. Not a lot of options once that happens but to sell or hope that they do.



Well said! 
In the first year of tree stands for rifle hunters, opening morning I had four young guys surrounding me from above. I had hunted there for years and they knew it. Of all the hunter types I have met it's the parasites like this that disgust me the most. 

Anyway...about 10 AM I packed my cart up and started down the trail not knowing where to go. One hunter yells at me in a p..sed off tone "are you lost"? I was not happy! 

To make a long story short, about a week later after moving numerous times I shot my biggest buck ever, a nine point with 8" brow tines!


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

The right public or private can be better.:lol:

Private when tightly managed for hunting can become as static as sitting the same spot on public and if no sightings becoming monotony.
When I could ,roaming areas in the U.P. and some time in the lower in the deadstream were some of the most, in terms of being able to have a fair chess game and one on one with a deer times, interesting hunts yet no kills on my part. Sure did enjoy them lonely places though...
Being able to when makin like a stump gets old, get up and mosey without stepping on toes or be able to bump deer that slide out and put cover between you and themselves, then keep an ear on you is different,rather than well harassed postage stamp parcel ones that erupt at mach 3 for the next zip code. Too some move out and will not tolerate our presence in remote locations as well as private, with spooked remote deer swearing never again.. They keep tabs on us though.
Today due to limited mobility private would be preferred for me in lower half of the lower. Recovery of deer and the time involved factor into that. Not just locating a site but one that is easy to recover a deer on. Has been done on public; but not lately.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Ranger Ray said:


> Having a couple hundred acres of private to hunt, I still enjoy the public. There is something about going into a new area, learning the terrain, and the movement of animals. Something about not having named every deer on the property, and not knowing when and where they move. People are missing out the experience of the natural movement of deer, not enticed by food plots, hinge cuts and funneling manipulation. I call it, the Au Natural Experience. Think I will push for the elimination of, trail cams, foot plots, hinge cuts and funneling. People really are missing out seeing deer in their natural state. We need to force them to see what they are missing.


There is no place in the state where deer are in their natural state. Unless you find one at Hartwick Pines. But oh, yeah, it is one of the few features left that mimics "natural" habitat in northern Michigan, and it, like almost all of northern Michigan, was abysmal deer habitat before deforestation.


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

Public land is the truth to michigan hunting.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

bioactive said:


> There is no place in the state where deer are in their natural state. Unless you find one at Hartwick Pines. But oh, yeah, it is one of the few features left that mimics "natural" habitat in northern Michigan, and it, like almost all of northern Michigan, was abysmal deer habitat before deforestation.


There is nothing more Au Natural than State Land. As often pointed out in these threads, the masses go no further then a couple feet from roads, thus never seeing all the deer that are running around. Therefore there must be vast amounts of land full of deer living as Au Natural as can be expected, living with the Au Natural Apex Predator Man.

One must ask, if there is no Au Natural, why are we restricting ourselves to see deer in a more natural state? Appears you think a more Au Natural can occur. Therefore the possibility of it existing already somewhere is a real possibility. Maybe you need to put down all the electronic gadgets and land manipulation to witness this Au Natural existence. Sorry you have not witnessed it. It is worthy of passing restricting laws on you, so you can witness it. Just look how excited you got shooting the buck no one had on camera. It was an Au Natural surprise, hence your jubilation.


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## 96215 (Jul 14, 2014)

I grew up hunting public land. Always killed deer, even a few nice ones. But nothing, and I mean nothing, elevated the quality of what I kill like access to private ground did.


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## MOTOMAN91 (Oct 26, 2010)

The state land in my area this year is the worst I've ever hunted in! Try hunting the Murphy lake state game area and how many deer so you see? Close to zero and I'm no rookie. I have hundreds of acres right out my back door but no matter how far you go in there is people and hardly any deer sign. I have a 40 acre section, by my house no easy access, still has over 15 tree stands on it ( still. Year round ) dnr does nothing about it. Call them all you want, they won't touch them


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## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

beetlebomb said:


> FINALLY!:woohoo1:....many know it's true but don't want to admit it!
> The good old days of hunting!


 
The "good old days of hunting" also included people bumping into each other in the woods and having a short exchange as to what they saw, where their buddies were hunting, perhaps a "congratulations" or a "be safe" along the way.

Damn, am I that old?


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

wildcoy73 said:


> Public land is the truth to michigan hunting.



That can be taken in many different ways..... Both good and bad.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

Ranger Ray said:


> Having a couple hundred acres of private to hunt, I still enjoy the public. There is something about going into a new area, learning the terrain, and the movement of animals. Something about not having named every deer on the property, and not knowing when and where they move. People are missing out the experience of the natural movement of deer, not enticed by food plots, hinge cuts and funneling manipulation. I call it, the Au Natural Experience. Think I will push for the elimination of, trail cams, foot plots, hinge cuts and funneling. People really are missing out seeing deer in their natural state. We need to force them to see what they are missing.



Here we go......

Was a pretty decent thread until Ray Ray showed up


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

Nothin natural about public hunting on november 15th. But learn the people and how deer are going to react and your in for a show


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

Next year I have a sight about 100 feet off the road. Should be a good producer.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

bioactive said:


> There is no place in the state where deer are in their natural state. Unless you find one at Hartwick Pines. But oh, yeah, it is one of the few features left that mimics "natural" habitat in northern Michigan, and it, like almost all of northern Michigan, was abysmal deer habitat before deforestation.


Well obviously. I think most of us know what Ray meant though.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Most of my hunting is done on public lands. I think there is alot that could be done to improve public land hunting. More areas and regulations like that implemented on shiawasse national refuge. More walk in only accesable hunting areas. No stands or bait left on public lands. Some areas could be designated as draw hunt only. I just think if we had some areas set aside for quality hunting areas alot more people would be satisfied more often. 

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

bucknasty11208 said:


> These days I hunt exclusively on public land. I have hunted a piece of private property in Eaton county for a few years and saw lots of deer. It was fun hunting and I even killed my first two bow bucks there. But with that being said, I'll stick with bow hunting the HNF in the NELP. Deer numbers are less but it's hard hunting and when you bag a good one with your bow, you feel just that much more accomplished.
> Besides, there are plenty of nice bucks running around on public land.


Concerning the Huron National Forest: If it wasnt for Oct. being my favorite month for motorcycling and if I owned a four wheel drive vehicle Id hunt at least some of the month off the North end of Deckerville Rd. after it turns to gravel. Take the second right until you come to a tunnel of yellow (Maples) over the road and take the next left (two track) to the intersection of another two track, park there and start looking around. 
This is what it looks like in Oct. after you park.


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## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

beetlebomb said:


> Concerning the Huron National Forest: If it wasnt for Oct. being my favorite month for motorcycling and if I owned a four wheel drive vehicle Id hunt at least some of the month off the North end of Deckerville Rd. after it turns to gravel. Take the second right until you come to a tunnel of yellow (Maples) over the road and take the next left (two track) to the intersection of another two track, park there and start looking around.
> This is what it looks like in Oct. after you park.


 
Darn. If heaven doesn't look that nice, I may ask to stay here. Beautiful.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

motdean said:


> Darn. If heaven doesn't look that nice, I may ask to stay here. Beautiful.


Hey motdean, it's public land! If you get a little lost just look for a guard rail on your right on a curve that over looks a deep valley and you are on the road to the last left turn. I call that valley "coyote valley" because one year (on the bike) I saw a coyote trotting across it.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

brushbuster said:


> Most of my hunting is done on public lands. I think there is alot that could be done to improve public land hunting. More areas and regulations like that implemented on shiawasse national refuge. More walk in only accesable hunting areas. No stands or bait left on public lands. Some areas could be designated as draw hunt only. I just think if we had some areas set aside for quality hunting areas alot more people would be satisfied more often.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app



I think you're onto something


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

brushbuster said:


> Most of my hunting is done on public lands. I think there is alot that could be done to improve public land hunting. More areas and regulations like that implemented on shiawasse national refuge. More walk in only accesable hunting areas. No stands or bait left on public lands. Some areas could be designated as draw hunt only. I just think if we had some areas set aside for quality hunting areas alot more people would be satisfied more often.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Those are good suggestions. I'd add one to your list - some areas could be designated as archery only.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

motdean said:


> Darn. If heaven doesn't look that nice, I may ask to stay here. Beautiful.


Beautiful, to a human, but very poor deer habitat, at least what is visible in that picture.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

brushbuster said:


> Most of my hunting is done on public lands. I think there is alot that could be done to improve public land hunting. More areas and regulations like that implemented on shiawasse national refuge. More walk in only accesable hunting areas. No stands or bait left on public lands. Some areas could be designated as draw hunt only. I just think if we had some areas set aside for quality hunting areas alot more people would be satisfied more often.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Somewhere in the 90&#8217;s my buddy and I deer hunted an area pretty close to what you&#8217;re describing. 
Somebody on here must know the area and what it&#8217;s called. It&#8217;s walk in only, with some planted lakes (carry your boat in), a maintained wood chip walking trail and it's Federal land, Federally maintained.

It's off a road that goes not far out of Mckinley (not sure what direction) and I believe it&#8217;s the one that&#8217;s now been paved in blacktop. 
The area has a name, I believe it has the word &#8220;Good&#8230;.&#8221; in it and there was another area just like it to the East near M-65. I&#8217;ve looked for it on maps since and never been able to find it as a designated area.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

beetlebomb said:


> Somewhere in the 90s my buddy and I deer hunted an area pretty close to what youre describing.
> Somebody on here must know the area and what its called. Its walk in only, with some planted lakes (carry your boat in), a maintained wood chip walking trail and it's Federal land, Federally maintained.
> 
> It's off a road that goes not far out of Mckinley (not sure what direction) and I believe its the one thats now been paved in blacktop.
> The area has a name, I believe it has the word Good. in it and there was another area just like it to the East near M-65. Ive looked for it on maps since and never been able to find it as a designated area.


Forget my weird directions. I found a long forgotten Universal map book of Michigan and the area is "Hoist Lakes" out of Mckinley as I said.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

Here we go!


Access: Hoist Lakes has an east and west entry points. The east parking area is five miles north of Glennie, Mich. on M-65. To access the west parking area: from Glennie travel 2.75 miles west on Bamfield Road, turn north on Au Sable Road. Travel north seven miles to Aspen Alley Road. Travel north 1.75 miles to the parking area.

From this web site:

http://www.alconareview.com/hiking-camping.html


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

motdean said:


> Darn. If heaven doesn't look that nice, I may ask to stay here. Beautiful.


To get to Deckerville Rd. take Heath Rd. East off M-33. Heath Rd. is less than a mile out of Rose City to the North. Deckerville has a road sign but it comes up quick from behind trees and is easy to miss. It's 4 miles from M-33 to Deckerville Rd.


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## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

bioactive said:


> Beautiful, to a human, but very poor deer habitat, at least what is visible in that picture.


 
Yeah, I can easily see myself going for a walk down this path on an Indian Summer kind of day....let's say prior to Oct. 1. :lol:

Please tell me you can't smell the leaves in that pic.....


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

beetlebomb said:


> Somewhere in the 90s my buddy and I deer hunted an area pretty close to what youre describing.
> Somebody on here must know the area and what its called. Its walk in only, with some planted lakes (carry your boat in), a maintained wood chip walking trail and it's Federal land, Federally maintained.
> 
> It's off a road that goes not far out of Mckinley (not sure what direction) and I believe its the one thats now been paved in blacktop.
> The area has a name, I believe it has the word Good. in it and there was another area just like it to the East near M-65. Ive looked for it on maps since and never been able to find it as a designated area.


Yes we have a few areas. Hartwick pines has an area that is walk in. I think with all the public land we have, the dept could manage some areas as quality areas. Areas designed to produced and maintain quality buck hunting. In these designated areas they could decrease pressure. Limit the amount of bucks taken. Prohibit any type of land claiming. Limit weapon usage.Improve the habitat. All of these programs incorporated together would produce some pretty awesome hunting.


Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

brushbuster said:


> Yes we have a few areas. Hartwick pines has an area that is walk in. I think with all the public land we have, the dept could manage some areas as quality areas. Areas designed to produced and maintain quality buck hunting. In these designated areas they could decrease pressure[/COLOR]. Limit the amount of bucks taken. Prohibit any type of land claiming. Limit weapon usage.Improve the habitat. All of these programs incorporated together would produce some pretty awesome hunting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app



Nice.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Ranger Ray said:


> Nice.


They wouldnt be state wide Ray. Just several small tracts scattered throughout the state. If it made you feel better Ray we could even establish a user fee.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

motdean said:


> Yeah, I can easily see myself going for a walk down this path on an Indian Summer kind of day....let's say prior to Oct. 1. :lol:
> 
> Please tell me you can't smell the leaves in that pic.....


Beautiful, to a human...


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

bioactive said:


> Beautiful, to a human...


Beautiful to deer also. Huron National Forest has been ranked within the top 10 National Parks by some for "quality" deer hunting. The deer populations are not manipulated by vast areas of food plots. The deer population in our National forests are managed probably closer to Au Natural than any other area. The amount of food mature oaks and beech put out rival anything man plants. There is never a river bottom or swamp far. The varied terrain allows the deer ample food and habitat to survive. The big woods is part of it. You want the Au Natural experience? Get off your 40 acres and hit Michigan's big wilderness. Just remember, Au Natural you so want the people to experience, does not have 30 to 40 different bucks per square mile like the unnatural manipulated hunting land of the south.


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## casscityalum (Aug 27, 2007)

brushbuster said:


> Yes we have a few areas. Hartwick pines has an area that is walk in. I think with all the public land we have, the dept could manage some areas as quality areas. Areas designed to produced and maintain quality buck hunting. In these designated areas they could decrease pressure. Limit the amount of bucks taken. Prohibit any type of land claiming. Limit weapon usage.Improve the habitat. All of these programs incorporated together would produce some pretty awesome hunting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app



Sounds great. More area likes the the shi would be great for the state.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

motdean said:


> Yeah, I can easily see myself going for a walk down this path on an Indian Summer kind of day....let's say prior to Oct. 1. :lol:
> 
> Please tell me you can't smell the leaves in that pic.....


motdean: From my dirt bike days when you could go anywhere on both State and Federal land I have a huge cache of memories of places like this from all over the state, including the U.P. 
Just down the road in that picture, to the left you will see huge boulders and remnants of a bike trail. 
The Fed. Forest Service put those boulders there to keep the bikers from coming up the hill but it didnt work. 
It was free camping at Ambrose Lake Campground (off Rose City Rd.) back then and that was a jumping place for dirt bikers that rode the area. 
In Oct. when the color starts to change I head out on the bike and hit a lot of the old places, some cause goose bumps. I still have the most wonderful dreams of those days.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

Ranger Ray said:


> Nice.


Ranger Ray, 

I'm liking you more all the time.


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## bucknasty11208 (Jan 21, 2009)

bioactive said:


> Beautiful, to a human...



Dang man! Why do you always have to piss on everybody's parade?

For all you know just up the road or off to the sides of road in that picture could be acres and acres of 2-10 year old cutoffs ripe with new growth popple, soft mast berry bushes, and other thick undergrowth. Maybe there are acres of cattail marshes and a mile of thick creek bottom and 1000s of acres of oak and beech ridges that run into the regrowth, swamps, and creek bottom.

Sometimes you just need to look at a picture and take it for what its worth.....pure beauty. 
You're worse than my old man who pisses and moans about everything.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

bucknasty11208 said:


> Dang man! Why do you always have to piss on everybody's parade?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


at least what is visible in that picture.


I guess you didn't finish reading the rest of the post.


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## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

beetlebomb said:


> Well said!
> In the first year of tree stands for rifle hunters, opening morning I had four young guys surrounding me from above. I had hunted there for years and they knew it. Of all the hunter types I have met it's the parasites like this that disgust me the most.
> 
> Anyway...about 10 AM I packed my cart up and started down the trail not knowing where to go. One hunter yells at me in a p..sed off tone "are you lost"? I was not happy!
> ...


The only thing that could have made a better ending is, you wheeled that nice buck out past those four young guys.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Waif said:


> O.K. maybe some pruning ,long range somehow to open canopy.
> If only there was a way.
> 
> Shooting Chainsaws With The Slingshot - YouTube


You wouldnt want to wip yer eea off


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

brushbuster said:


> You wouldnt want to wip yer eea off


Huh?:lol:


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## Chuck (Sep 24, 2000)

brushbuster said:


> Most of my hunting is done on public lands. I think there is alot that could be done to improve public land hunting. More areas and regulations like that implemented on shiawasse national refuge. More walk in only accesable hunting areas. No stands or bait left on public lands. Some areas could be designated as draw hunt only. I just think if we had some areas set aside for quality hunting areas alot more people would be satisfied more often.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I have thought something along these lines also (I do like no bait or tree stand left over night). I have always thought the public area I hunt the most in there could be a swatch that runs threw the middle that is only allowed to be hunted by flintlocks and recurves. This would create an area that gives more deer a chance and sets aside areas for guys who want to make things more challenging. 

Other states have hunts like this. When I hunted in Oregon they had areas that were recurve hunting only for elk and they were draw too. These were supposed to be awesome hunts.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

This thread is bringing up some long standing thoughts for me. 
When I get together with my cousin Mike, once in a while he&#8217;ll say: &#8220;let&#8217;s keep it light for today, ok&#8221;? That comment always confuses me, maybe he&#8217;s talking about a comment like this: 

Back in the early 90&#8217;s (or so) I had the hunt of my lifetime. 
Menominee County was so overrun with deer you could get all the permits you wanted. My buddy and I headed up there for ten days. No matter where we went, from paper land with ground so hard you could hear the deer coming like a herd of horses, to CFR cedar swamps, it didn&#8217;t matter, there were heavily worn deer trails EVERYWHERE! I killed 5 deer and for the amount of deer I saw that was a poor showing. It sure was heady deer hunting! For weeks after we got home I just babbled about it to anyone that would listen. 

Then, after not too long my thoughts about that hunt began to change without me giving it any thought until one day in a conversation about it with my brother he cynically says: &#8220;I thought you said the hunting was so great up there&#8221;? 
I had no response for him, in fact I felt embarrassed at myself for my apparent hypocrisy. 
Since that day I&#8217;ve given it a lot of thought and never have found a simple answer.

You may think it&#8217;s crazy but my thoughts have run back to my dad, who I am a product of, and who hated anything modern (thank God for my mother, whose father followed the circus around the world his whole life). 
My father hated anything plastic, modern appliances, TV, even telephones and cars! He called it all &#8220;dollhouse stuff&#8221;. 
And me, I've been stuck with the belief your personality and mental outlook are a product of your parents mix of genes and throughout your life your environment may affect minor changes but for the most part you&#8217;re screwed.


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

CHASINEYES said:


> Who said it couldn't?
> 
> I'm just saying a mature stand of maples can be a big buck honey hole, even on state land. They serve as secondary cover. All it takes is for a small piece of cover within that stand like a blowdown or cluster of grapevines and MR Big is all set. Would I want my entire hunting property to be a mature stand of sugar maple? Nope, as was mentioned, nothing a chainsaw couldn't fix.
> 
> *RMH & BNBs, that first sentence is not what you're thinking*.


My first was right next to a stand of Acer saccharum, once I had her in my sights she never made it to heavy cover. 

Seriously, I hunted state land, same spot (Pigeon River State forest) for over 20 years just south of a town called Afton. I loved every minute of it. I hunted in a fairly big camp with a great bunch of guys, usually 10 to 15 people at camp with occasional additional friends and family would stop by for a hunt or two. We would set up our trailers and tents for gun season. Some bow hunting back then but not much. Nobody drove to a hunting spot from camp, just get up and go. One to three miles was our range, with most hunters sticking within one mile from camp. Camping with the fellows was half the fun.

Deer hunting was always marginal at best in our area but nobody cared to move camp somewhere with better hunting.. 7 sightings the first week of gun was average for the good hunters in the group. One to two deer a year from that camp was what you get. I have not been to camp in 15 years but some of our local friends still hunt it. They did not see one deer there this 2014/15 season. My friends up there do shoot deer, they are just not always successful at this camp. 

In 2000 I started hunting my brothers 20 acres behind his house. It is smack in the middle of a lot of deer. It is very, very, rare to not see deer when I hunt there, few brutes mixed in now and then also. As far as habitat changes, I would still have good hunting there without any on this piece of property. Hunting this private property has taught me a lot about deer and deer hunting. Six years ago I became interested in the habitat and learning the types trees and shrubs on the property. I started mixing in some food plots and habitat improvements and never looked back. With the QDMA events and MS friends I have become hooked on the habitat game.

If I ever loose my private hunting spot I will have no regrets hunting public land again. With everything I have learned the past 15 years on private I just might be able to kill some bigger bucks than I used too on state land. If I had the time I would try to make it up to camp for a few hunts now and then. But for now, life is good on my private hunting grounds.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

CHASINEYES said:


> Punch this into Maps or Google Earth.
> 
> bull gap rd, mio, michigan 48647



I never knew there was a Bull Gap rd.. In those days we just rode sorta by ear, at least I did. I've never had a great sense of direction. Now that I think about it, I usually followed someone else there. If my wife and I rode together she would lead us out, some got it, some don't. 
However, to a dirt biker of that era Bull Gap only meant the hill by Mio.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

QDMAMAN said:


> So, you're saying a mature stand of sugar maples wouldn't be your first best place to hunt deer?


Depends on what the sign looks like. Three years ago I saw a shooter buck bed down right against a big maple. My point was that on public land if you don't like one area, you can move to another. And its FREE!


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## thetreestandguy (Dec 16, 2005)

bioactive said:


> It was a picture of a deer hunting spot posted on a deer hunting forum.
> 
> So I commented on it as deer habitat. Sorry if that seems to be a form of "tunnel vision" to you. I see it as being right on topic.
> 
> You know what's even more amazing? When I am on a fishing site and someone shows a picture of a beautiful river or lake, I will probably comment on how the fishing is. :lol:


Fair enough Bio, obviously I can appreciate the above comments. More often than not I agree with you and very much appreciate the tips you provide in the habitat forums. Maybe we just tend to communicate differently, that's all.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

2508speed said:


> I was just going to post that! I'm glad I scrolled through the thread! That's what we called it too! You're the OP of this thread right? Don't want to derail it! BUTT!!! Bull Gap is by Mio! Not the one in Maltby Hills! Unless the DNR renamed the hill by Mio. You're talking about the hill off what was called AlCan Highway? WOW! I'm using a few memory cells I thought were gone!


The Alcan Highway! That's one I don't think would have come to mind until you mentioned it but man, I have some strong memories/emotions from that area. I rode with a guy who knew them all, even in the Grimm hill/Rd. area. I just followed him. 
Even in my years of hunting deer, hare, birds, etc. with someone else I let them figure out how to get out. 
After I started hunting by myself I found the GPS to be a big help. Not to find my way out but to give me a combined mental picture of the area. Before the GPS I could visualize all kinds of small areas but couldn't put them together. It was like being able to put a puzzle together into one picture once I got the GPS.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

Ranger Ray said:


> That would depend. If I saw a monster buck I will name Billy Jack III on my ASO 5000 Ultra Infrared MEGA Zoom trail cam coming through at 1:45:07 p.m., from my hinge cut area, that I used My Stihl Ultimate hinge machine chainsaw, following my corralling line of AO I spread with my brand new seeder feeder 2000, and heading for my MGO (second cousin to GMO) Corn I laid down with my brand new 1000 horse 4WD tractor. Well, it might just be the most natural, and best spot to hunt. Now if Billy would have come from the bush berm I use to corral from the SW, that was put down by my manual ho ho 35M, that is right next to my Asian carp pond, and headed toward my Nappy Head brand wheat field. Well, maybe not.



I don't care, that's hilarious! 
The only guy I know that could match that wit is my brother, so I understand.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Depends on what the sign looks like. Three years ago I saw a shooter buck bed down right against a big maple. My point was that on public land if you don't like one area, you can move to another. And its FREE!


Free?

Maybe for you, if you don't pay taxes. But it costs me money in a number of different ways.


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## MichiganGoneWild (Jul 16, 2014)

If you are willing to do the work, large tracts of Public Land can pay off simply because you have a much wider range of territory to work with. I hunt Public land 90% of the time and My camp always has good luck because of our knowledge of the area and willingness to put in the work.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

MichiganGoneWild said:


> If you are willing to do the work, large tracts of Public Land can pay off simply because you have a much wider range of territory to work with. I hunt Public land 90% of the time and My camp always has good luck because of our knowledge of the area and willingness to put in the work.


Good post, and very true. Our camp is on public land in the NELP TB zone. We always have hundreds of acres to roam about without any interference from other hunters. There are more than enough deer to keep us happy. I really enjoy the non-crowded conditions. We can hunt all week long during firearms season and have the entire area to ourselves. Can't ask for more than that.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

bioactive said:


> Free?
> 
> Maybe for you, if you don't pay taxes. But it costs me money in a number of different ways.



How does public land cost you money ?

Let me help you out..... http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-58225_58301-39513--,00.html


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## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

I think the proper terminology is "sunk cost". 

It is money that you spend that you can't get back regardless of whether you use it or not. (Taxes and hunting license fees to maintain the land.) 

Swampy, I think the link you posted is a source of revenue, but not the only one. Am I wrong?


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

Who pays for the CRP subsidies that Bio & FL collect for deer farming?:yikes:

.


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## Tracker83 (Jun 21, 2005)

swampbuck said:


> How does public land cost you money ?
> 
> Let me help you out..... http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-58225_58301-39513--,00.html


What percentage of the PUBLIC land in this state was acquired from NRTF proceeds?


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Ah yes, the ole public assistant argument. You ever wonder what non pooled insurance costs would be for the individual who brandishes a chainsaw? I didn't think so. You can say thank you to all those that cover that risk. Your welcome. Timber! Hey! Don't bite the messenger, I am all for no insurance and natural selection. 

Hey! Is that Joe over there screaming for help from under that tree on his 15 acres? Yep sure is. Shouldn't we go help him? Nah, he always was a fence sitter.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

Ranger Ray said:


> Ah yes, the ole public assistant argument. You ever wonder what non pooled insurance costs would be for the individual who brandishes a chainsaw? I didn't think so. You can say thank you to all those that cover that risk. Your welcome. Timber! Hey! Don't bite the messenger, I am all for no insurance and natural selection.
> 
> Hey! is that Joe over there screaming for help from under that tree on his 15 acres? Yep sure is. Shouldn't we go help him? Nah, he always was a fence sitter.



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> Who pays for the CRP subsidies that Bio & FL collect for deer farming?:yikes:
> 
> 
> 
> .



You......
Do you feel better now knowing YOU help fund their deer farming practices?

I bet it makes you all warm and fuzzy inside.


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## Tracker83 (Jun 21, 2005)

Ranger Ray said:


> Ah yes, the ole public assistant argument. You ever wonder what non pooled insurance costs would be for the individual who brandishes a chainsaw? I didn't think so. You can say thank you to all those that cover that risk. Your welcome. Timber! Hey! Don't bite the messenger, I am all for no insurance and natural selection.
> 
> Hey! Is that Joe over there screaming for help from under that tree on his 15 acres? Yep sure is. Shouldn't we go help him? Nah, he always was a fence sitter.


Your anger and hatred knows no bounds...


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Oh no, you caught me, the angry ranger ray.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> Who pays for the CRP subsidies that Bio & FL collect for deer farming?:yikes:
> 
> .


Mostly, me. For 2014, the federal income tax I paid was slightly more than 39.7 times the sum of my CRP income for the year. If I had no CRP income at all, I would have had higher gross income, as CRP rental rates I receive are well below what I could get should I have chosen to lease that ground out as cropland.

Got to be a good half dozen times you have brought this up, and always in a manner barely tangential to the topic being discussed. A fetish by any standard.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Here we go......

Was a pretty decent thread until bucksnbows showed up


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

No ****e Sherlock. :lol:

It just shows who the takers are. 

How to take advantage of Gov. programs to help your deer huntin' property.

Come on, didn't you learn anything at TL's boot camp? :lol:

.


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## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

MichiganGoneWild said:


> If you are willing to do the work, large tracts of Public Land can pay off simply because you have a much wider range of territory to work with. I hunt Public land 90% of the time and My camp always has good luck because of our knowledge of the area and willingness to put in the work.


Work is an interesting way to look at the issue. The private land owner can work on his private land all year, but he can minimize the work he has to do during the hunt. The private land hunter who hunts on leased land or property owned by someone else doesn't do all that much work usually. He pays for the lease or he endures the obligations of being a guest. The "work" of the public land hunter is mainly done during the hunt, setup and breakdown of the camp (if there is one), scouting (hiking), and dragging a deer a lot further if they get one.

When you're young and you've got no money and no time to devote to land maintenance. Public land or being an invited guest on private land is how to stay hunting. When you're older, have means and time to devote to private land, you don't have to endure the same risks and inconveniences that public land hunters have to endure. You still have risks, but lots of short term miles on your boots, or a long drag for your deer, or squabbles with other public land hunters don't have to be among them.

So what you prefer can change as your ability to afford it changes and your ability to work hard during the hunt decreases. If you're old and still don't have means, you can keep hunting by relying on younger members of your group to help you, or by buddy hunting. But if you prefer to be a solitary, self-reliant hunter, being older and hunting on public land can look less attractive each year.


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

farmlegend said:


> Mostly, me. For 2014, the federal income tax I paid was slightly more than 39.7 times the sum of my CRP income for the year. If I had no CRP income at all, I would have had higher gross income, as CRP rental rates I receive are well below what I could get should I have chosen to lease that ground out as cropland.
> 
> Got to be a good half dozen times you have brought this up, and always in a manner highly tangential to the topic being discussed. A fetish by any standard.


Still comes across as Welfare Assistance.

Only I would rather see it go those truly in need. Not those who look down upon or complain about truly needy welfare recipients, all while dipping into the same taxpayer funded pie, but that's just me. Jmo


.

.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

farmlegend said:


> Mostly, me. For 2014, the federal income tax I paid was slightly more than 39.7 times the sum of my CRP income for the year. If I had no CRP income at all, I would have had higher gross income, as CRP rental rates I receive are well below what I could get should I have chosen to lease that ground out as cropland.


Wow, I am quite the welfare bitch. My federal tax was only 15 times as much as I took in from CRP.:lol:


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## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> Still comes across as Welfare Assistance.
> 
> Only I would rather see it go those truly in need. Not those who look down upon or complain about truly needy welfare recipients, all while dipping into the same taxpayer funded pie, but that's just me. Jmo


CRP payments are far from welfare assistance. They are payments to the farmer to not exercise his right to grow crops so that people downstream don't have to pay as much to get cleaner water. The farmer has the right to grow crops, the people downstream don't have the right to cleaner water at his expense. Mess with his right to grow crops without compensating him, and the value of his land will go down and tax revenues will go down and one way or another, the people downstream will pay.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> Still comes across as Welfare Assistance.
> 
> Only I would rather see it go those truly in need. Not those who look down upon or complain about truly needy welfare recipients, all while dipping into the same taxpayer funded pie, but that's just me. Jmo


You have a rather bizzarre definition for "welfare" Mr. Rut.

True welfare programs provide about $927 billion per year in state and federal subsidies, compared to about 1.5 billion for CRP programs. Much of the true welfare money goes to people who are paying little or no taxes. Most of the CRP money goes to people who are paying far more tax than they are receiving in subsidies. Moreover, CRP payments are denied to people who have high incomes. 

As fl stated, many CRP recipients could make more money renting out the property to farmers. However, many of us, being true stewards of the land, prefer instead to participate in a program aimed at decreasing erosion and pollution of streams, while providing cover for wildlife using native plants.

The CRP and similar programs are not even remotely close to being entitlement type welfare programs. But instead are programs where land owners and the government provide enhanced habitat for the benefit of everyone who uses the waters that are protected by these programs. 

Do you not understand that we could make more money renting out the land to farmers? It is not about the money. It is about the habitat. If you don't see that I have to say you are being obtuse. Personally, I consider dealing with the CRP program to be somewhat of a burden compared to what leasing the land out would be, but do it only because I think it is good for the habitat. 



> Why is CRP important?
> 
> Signed into law by President Ronald Reagan in 1985, CRP is the largest private-lands conservation program in the United States. Thanks to voluntary participation by farmers and land owners, CRP has improved water quality, reduced soil erosion, and increased habitat for endangered and threatened species.


----------



## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

WinkyJ said:


> CRP payments are far from welfare assistance. They are payments to the farmer to not exercise his right to grow crops so that people downstream don't have to pay as much to get cleaner water. The farmer has the right to grow crops, the people downstream don't have the right to cleaner water at his expense. Mess with his right to grow crops without compensating him, and the value of his land will go down and tax revenues will go down and one way or another, the people downstream will pay.


Well said Winky.


----------



## zachattack (Nov 2, 2012)

This thread has gotten so lost.. It's gone from state land to pictures to taxes... I'm just here for a few laughs and possibly to learn something new, so carry on...


----------



## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> Still comes across as Welfare Assistance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only because you don't like the people who receive it.


----------



## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

Ranger Ray said:


> Here we go......
> 
> 
> 
> Was a pretty decent thread until bucksnbows showed up



Actually until your life partner R&S showed up it was a decent thread. 
But hey we should be used to his negativity.


----------



## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

zachattack said:


> This thread has gotten so lost.. It's gone from state land to pictures to taxes... I'm just here for a few laughs and possibly to learn something new, so carry on...


 
No, no, no....from state land to pictures to taxes to the guy commenting on laughing at the course of the thread....:lol:


----------



## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

Tracker83 said:


> Your anger and hatred knows no bounds.



It tears me up that you guys don&#8217;t get it. George Carlin, Bill Burr, Louis CK, etc. make/made jillions from having a wit/intellegence like this.


----------



## zachattack (Nov 2, 2012)

motdean said:


> No, no, no....from state land to pictures to taxes to the guy commenting on laughing at the course of the thread....:lol:



Anything to give it a little more twist  :thumbsup:


----------



## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

motdean said:


> I think the proper terminology is "sunk cost".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Several of the restricted funds pay PILT, the rest comes from the general fund. To get the whole picture though you have to consider how much revenue is made off of those public lands. The benefits far outweigh the costs.

This is from 2003....

"Michigans ownership of 4.54 million acres of land is one of the reasons this natural beauty endures. Of the total state-owned lands, forests make up 86%, state parks, recreation areas, and wildlife areas account for 12.5%, while the remaining 1.5% is made up of water access sites and other department land. According to the DNRs website, state public lands support 400,000 jobs and contribute over $13 billion to Michigan's economy each year."
http://www.mlui.org/mlui/news-views/articles-from-1995-to-2012.html?archive_id=253#.VLlFXYm9LTq

Here's some newer stuff, forestry related...remember me calling it a tree farm in the past. It's a bit long, but very important to the topic...
http://www.environmentalcouncil.org/mecReports/ManagingMichigansState-ownedForests.pdf


----------



## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

WinkyJ said:


> CRP payments are far from welfare assistance. They are payments to the farmer to not exercise his right to grow crops so that people downstream don't have to pay as much to get cleaner water. The farmer has the right to grow crops, the people downstream don't have the right to cleaner water at his expense. Mess with his right to grow crops without compensating him, and the value of his land will go down and tax revenues will go down and one way or another, the people downstream will pay.


You're right Winky. I should have stressed the fact that there are some who use those subsidies to enhance their deer hunting property. Farmers are deserving. Deer hunters getting subsidies for deer hunting/habitat purposes, not so much.

.


----------



## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

Ranger Ray said:


> Oh no, you caught me, the angry ranger ray.










beetlebomb said:


> It tears me up that you guys dont get it. George Carlin, Bill Burr, Louis CK, etc. make/made jillions from having a wit/intellegence like this.


I thought he sounded more like Ron White. Lol

"You caught me! You caught the tater"


----------



## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

beetlebomb said:


> I do know deer get bigger as they grow older, I guess the horns dont necessarily.
> What Im wondering is, would the other four deer look like (disregarding the horns) that second one from the right if they had lived to his age?


A normal bucks antlers will get larger each year up until about the age of 4.5-5.5 when they start to level off. Then at 8.5 to 9.5 they start to decrease in size. The top image is a study of pen raised deer in Mississippi. The bottom one is a study of wild deer in Texas. You can expect to get about 20-40 inches of extra antler per year from 1.5 to 4.5. Perhaps lower than that in poor habitat but still, they get bigger each year until they reach physical maturity at 4.5 to 5.5.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

bioactive said:


> A normal bucks antlers will get larger each year up until about the age of 4.5-5.5 when they start to level off. Then at 8.5 to 9.5 they start to decrease in size. The top image is a study of pen raised deer in Mississippi. The bottom one is a study of wild deer in Texas. You can expect to get about 20-40 inches of extra antler per year from 1.5 to 4.5. Perhaps lower than that in poor habitat but still, they get bigger each year until they reach physical maturity at 4.5 to 5.5.


Thanks for that post bio. After I posted I was worried it could be taken wrong. What I was referring to though is the size of the deers head, snout, ears and neck. I remember reading they fill out and change shape somewhat as they age but what about the head, is that genetic, decided by age or a combination of both?


----------



## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

beetlebomb said:


> Thanks for that post bio. After I posted I was worried it could be taken wrong. What I was referring to though is the size of the deers head, snout, ears and neck. I remember reading they fill out and change shape somewhat as they age but what about the head, is that genetic, decided by age or a combination of both?


Oh, when you said "horns" I though you meant antlers.



> beetlebomb: I do know deer get bigger as they grow older, I guess the horns dont necessarily.


----------



## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

bioactive said:


> Oh, when you said "horns" I though you meant antlers.



This is what I was looking for. That one buck of Grizzly's has that monster buck snout!

http://www.1atexasdeerhunting.com/bodyagingdeer.htm

3 and 1/2 years

A three and a half year old buck reminds me of a racehorse. They are usually very lean muscle, and act ready for action. They may make rubs and scrapes if no bigger bucks are present.*The nose lengthens and broadens. *

The head will look as long as it's going to look during their life. Eyes are still very round. The brisket is noticeable but not pronounced. Legs look the right length now. The belly line is flat, with just a little up turn at the rear. The tarsal gland will be dark in rut. Rump starts looking more rounded at times and squared off at times, depending on stance. Back line is flat.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

Still waiting R&S.


----------



## GrizzlyHunter (Jun 17, 2005)

stickbow shooter said:


> Some nice bucks there Grizzly, congrats.





U of M Fan said:


> Very nice Grizz!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


Stickbow Shooter & U of M Fan - Thank you!



beetlebomb said:


> I do know deer get bigger as they grow older, I guess the horns don&#8217;t necessarily.
> What I&#8217;m wondering is, would the other four deer look like (disregarding the horns) that second one from the right if they had lived to his age?


Beetlebomb,
In my experience the size of their rack has a lot to do with genetics, age, nutrition, and where I hunt the harshness of the previous winter(s) also has a large effect.

The bucks stats (from left to right) were as follows:
1) 164 lbs., 3-1/2 years old.
2) 153 lbs., 4-1/2 years old.
3) 155 lbs., 5-1/2 or 6-1/2 years old!!
4) 183 lbs., 4-1/2 or 5-1/2 years old. In 30 years at our camp he was the 2nd heaviest, and 2nd best rack of almost 100 bucks taken! (The rack on my son's buck from 2014 is a few inches larger).
5) 160 lbs., 3-1/2 years old.

Interesting info (at least to me) when comparing these five:
Buck #1 is tied for youngest, has the smallest rack but is 2nd heaviest.
Buck #2 has the 2nd largest rack, and is the lightest.
Buck #3 is the oldest, and within 2 pounds of being the lightest. Past his prime I would guess. He had open gashes on his nose and neck from fighting (with green pus coming out), a large tear in one ear with a large amount of hair missing around it, numerous chipped/broken points and one rear knee was swollen to twice the size of the other. I imagine he was a fighter. (Taken during ML season. He probably weighed more during firearm season.)
Buck #4 was the nicest rack and by far the heaviest. He came stomping through the woods like he owned it wanted everybody to know it. (I actually remember being upset thinking that it was my brother circling around toward me during prime time.) Just a pig!
Buck #5 was just a nice sized buck. Incidentally, he had been shot by somebody else. The bullet unzipped his fur on the bottom of his chest and went through one leg, without hitting any bone. He was walking when I shot him, without a limp.

Buck #1 was the only one shot while sitting in a natural blind. All others where shot while on my feet, still-hunting.


----------



## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

bucksnbows said:


> Still waiting R&S.


For what?

That maybe I could have said they were TL's boot camp attendees, instead of disciples? I thought of that.

Are you insinuating that FL never went to TL's boot camp?

.


----------



## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

GrizzlyHunter said:


> Stickbow Shooter & U of M Fan - Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Grizz, that was interesting! You dont see that kind of documentation every day! I keep notes and you make me think about being a lot sharper, like next season! 

And youre a still-hunter! 

Ill never forget his chapter on still-hunting in my first Richard P. Smith book (now a collector item). I was totally impressed after he described the bonafide U.P. still hunters he personally knew, and how they hunted. 
Real still-hunters are the artisans of deer hunting.


----------



## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

So do you guys like hunting public land or not?

What the phuq happened in here? I just wasted a lot of time reading every other page. Ridiculous arguments...


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## GrizzlyHunter (Jun 17, 2005)

beetlebomb said:


> Thanks Grizz, that was interesting! You dont see that kind of documentation every day! I keep notes and you make me think about being a lot sharper, like next season!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanx Beetlebomb. My engineering mind drives me to record and analyze data. 

My bro helped learn still hunting. He is an incredible still hunter. I'm still learning. We're so fortunate to have access to so much public land in Da UP to allow us the opportunity to try and learn it.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

GrizzlyHunter said:


> Stickbow Shooter & U of M Fan - Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very impressive sir, well done!

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

I love to wander some. I feel boxed and constricted hunt in private land. Of course now that I have my own place to develop that will be different. 

Still public land hunting is in my blood. But will be reserved for bow season mostly. I've shot a lot of deer on public land, not much for bruisers but deer im happy with.

Having large tracts of land that can hold unknown bucks has an allure to it. Trail cams almost take the fun out of not knowing but help keep your butt in the stand.

I have yet to shoot any bucks on private land


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## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

More


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## limige (Sep 2, 2005)

Cams from state land


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> For what?
> 
> 
> 
> .


Post #182


----------



## bucknasty11208 (Jan 21, 2009)

uptracker said:


> So do you guys like hunting public land or not?
> 
> What the phuq happened in here? I just wasted a lot of time reading every other page. Ridiculous arguments...


Absolutely love hunting public land. It's pretty much all I know. Lot of room to roam and rarely see anyone else where we hunt in the NELP.


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## JBooth (Sep 21, 2009)

Hunting public land feels like more like hunting to me. Having private land (which we do) is very enjoyable but you have control of a lot of the variables and can hunt an area knowing that the deer will be there vs hunting the animals wherever they are. 

Definitely not a fan of public land pressure in some areas but there are a lot of areas that get little to no pressure. Far less than our private land.


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## Silver Addiction (Mar 2, 2012)

When I whitetail hunt I prefer to hunt public land. As others stated it just feels like real hunting to me. I wouldn't really like sitting over some managed ranch shooting a big buck that was grown and never targeted until he was 4.5 yrs old. A big buck on public land got that way because noone else has been able to kill him! I do this as a personal challenge because shooting a mature buck with archery gear on public land is an accomplishment! Also I like having lots of areas to hunt personally I would probably get bored if I hunted only 30 acres of private year in and year out. With that said this year will be my first year chasing deer in Michigans public land but I have hunted high pressure state land in other states and have been fortunate to harvest several solid P & Y bucks the last couple years. This season I decided to challenge myself to try and harvest a CBM buck with archery gear on Michigan state lands. All I can say is in my experience more mature bucks exist on public land than hunters realize they are just a lot better at surviving than hunters are at killing them! Thats not to say they are all over but they do exist and can be targeted.


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## old graybeard (Jan 19, 2006)

GrizzlyHunter said:


> Some of my public land bucks. Yes, I like hunting public land.


Some great looking bucks Grizz! Love it!


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## GrizzlyHunter (Jun 17, 2005)

brushbuster said:


> Very impressive sir, well done!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app





old graybeard said:


> Some great looking bucks Grizz! Love it!


Brushbuster - Thank you.

Old Graybeard - Thank you also. I know you've got quite a collection too! I know we have similar experiences in our UP deer camps! 

Limige-Nice bucks, especially with a bow.


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## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

*Hunting state land has improved my ability *to lie about where I hunt...
*Hunting state land has improved my ability *to remove other peoples surveyors tape and place it off track..
*Hunting state land has improved my ability *to notice trees cut off 3ft above the ground...
*Hunting state land has improved my ability* to find property lines and set up on them....
*Hunting state land has improved my ability* to walk past other hunters set up on two tracks and not feel guilty....
*Hunting on state land has improved my ability *to get out of bed early and hunt the mornings...
*Hunting on state land has improved my ability *to stay silent while an Asian guy still hunts under me after I took 5 min to explain to him I am going to hunt on the North side of the road.


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## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

bucksnbows said:


> How so?


How does being part of QDMA make you a model citizen? Do you help little old ladies cross the street or volunteer at the soup kitchen?

That is a terrible signature.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

bucksnbows said:


> How so?



I dont think theres much doubt that state land deer are more wary than deer hunted around where there is more human activity.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

midmimike said:


> *Hunting state land has improved my ability *to lie about where I hunt...
> *Hunting state land has improved my ability *to remove other peoples surveyors tape and place it off track..
> *Hunting state land has improved my ability *to notice trees cut off 3ft above the ground...
> *Hunting state land has improved my ability* to find property lines and set up on them....
> ...



IMO none of that would make you a better hunter and I question why you would remove flagging tape and place it elsewhere to throw a hunter off track. Hunting state land doesn't seem to be improving your sportsmanship.

I was hoping for more of an educational response..... Not the obvious.


----------



## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

brushbuster said:


> Hunting public land improves my ability to sniff out a carrot pile from a mile away. It improves my ability to see glow tacks in the day light.
> It improves my ability to pick up unwanted trash left in the woods. To follow a scent wick trail....
> Stuff like dat.


The purpose was to be sarcastic as I hope the above post and your post was. 

*PALM TO FACE:lol:*


----------



## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

midmimike said:


> How does being part of QDMA make you a model citizen? Do you help little old ladies cross the street or volunteer at the soup kitchen?
> 
> That is a terrible signature.



Because I contribute to a non-profit conservation organization working to ensure the future of white-tailed deer, wildlife habitat and our hunting heritage. QDMA has worked to promote sustainable, high-quality deer populations, wildlife habitats and ethical hunting experiences through research, education, advocacy, and hunter recruitment. QDMA teaches deer hunters how to improve local deer populations, habitat and hunting experiences.

I've never worked in a soup kitchen or helped old ladies across the street but I still hold the door open for them.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

midmimike said:


> *Hunting state land has improved my ability *to lie about where I hunt...
> *Hunting state land has improved my ability *to remove other peoples surveyors tape and place it off track..
> *Hunting state land has improved my ability *to notice trees cut off 3ft above the ground...
> *Hunting state land has improved my ability* to find property lines and set up on them....
> ...


You beat me to the Stalkers mike. The type who see youre a serious hunter and figure you know where the deer herd up, then plant themselves upwind of you. 
I had a real dandy this year. I found a line of cigarette butts where he was watching me come in every night to see how many I was hauling out. You can spot them as soon as they come sniffing around asking questions.


----------



## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

beetlebomb said:


> I dont think theres much doubt that state land deer are more wary than deer hunted around where there is more human activity.



State or private....
Deer are wary if humans. On private you can control the human intrusion but if not it isn't much different.


----------



## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

If you want a state land education try hunting it.


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## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

QDMA as a non profit is BS. You are benefitting yourselves. Don't tell me you use your tractor, truck and property to benefit others. They are tax deductions when you play it off as a non profit.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

midmimike said:


> If you want a state land education try hunting it.



I do hunt public land about 7 days a year.


----------



## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

bucksnbows said:


> State or private....
> Deer are wary if humans. On private you can control the human intrusion but if not it isn't much different.


It is very different when you control the pressure. Just because I said I hunt state land doesn't mean I don't hunt a lot of private. I have nothing against hunting private managed land, but don't come on here talking trash about state land hunting. It's ignorant and unfounded. 
Remember you brought yourself into this not me.


----------



## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

midmimike said:


> QDMA as a non profit is BS. You are benefitting yourselves. Don't tell me you use your tractor, truck and property to benefit others. They are tax deductions when you play it off as a non profit.



I don't own a tractor, truck or property. 
Nothing I do with hunting can be written off.
I like the magazine they provide and their mission so I became a member.


----------



## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

bucksnbows said:


> I do hunt public land about 7 days a year.


Then why ask the benefits? Sounds like you were looking for an argument.


----------



## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

bucksnbows said:


> State or private....
> Deer are wary if humans. On private you can control the human intrusion but if not it isn't much different.


I don't know, every time I hear a really dumb deer story it involves a farm land deer. I would think poaching would be much worse on state land and that alone could make them more jumpy.


----------



## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

midmimike said:


> It is very different when you control the pressure. Just because I said I hunt state land doesn't mean I don't hunt a lot of private. I have nothing against hunting private managed land, but don't come on here talking trash about state land hunting. It's ignorant and unfounded.
> Remember you brought yourself into this not me.



I didn't talk trash.
I asked how it made you a better hunter. 
Your explanations didn't sound like anything ground breaking.
Your actions with someone else's flagging tape was a stupid thing to admit to on the internet and also a contribution to what lessons the hunting experience for those who do hunt state land. 

And yes when you control the pressure it is much different. 
You can't do that on public land and sometimes you can't do that on private either. I hunted 280 acres of private land with 8 other guys for 7 years and it was like state land with hunters walking and driving everywhere all season long. Good thing was the high deer numbers at the time, otherwise sightings would if been limited. Hardly saw many good bucks back then either. 
Once I secured a piece of private ground for myself and 2 buddies ........ Things changed because we hunted smart. 
State ground you avoid the pressure...... Cuz that's what the deer do too.


----------



## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

bucksnbows said:


> I don't own a tractor, truck or property.
> Nothing I do with hunting can be written off.
> I like the magazine they provide and their mission so I became a member.


So you are a member but do nothing but defend it on the internet? 

I believe in the idea of managing deer for bigger healthier bucks. So we can agree on that. What I do not like about QDMA is it has become a club for big buck hunters to feel superior. What we should be working toward is a state wide organization with actual state wide regulations designed to benefit us all.
If QDMA's PR people did a better job and helped hunters understand management and they liked it we could get actual laws passed to manage all our deer and benefit from it.


----------



## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

midmimike said:


> Then why ask the benefits? Sounds like you were looking for an argument.



I didn't ask the benefits. 
I know the benefits of hunting public ground.
I asked how it made you better.


----------



## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

midmimike said:


> So you are a member but do nothing but defend it on the internet?
> 
> I believe in the idea of managing deer for bigger healthier bucks. So we can agree on that. What I do not like about QDMA is it has become a club for big buck hunters to feel superior. What we should be working toward is a state wide organization with actual state wide regulations designed to benefit us all.
> If QDMA's PR people did a better job and helped hunters understand management and they liked it we could get actual laws passed to manage all our deer and benefit from it.



What should I do beyond being a paid member? 
Who are the PR people? 

Yes the true message of the QDMA has been tainted with the idea of big bucks. That will likely never change. By their own admission the founders of the QDMA say that is where they screwed up.


----------



## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

bucksnbows said:


> I didn't talk trash.
> I asked how it made you a better hunter.
> *Your explanations didn't sound like anything ground breaking.
> Your actions with someone else's flagging tape was a stupid thing to admit to on the internet and also a contribution to what lessons the hunting experience for those who do hunt state land.
> ...


----------



## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

I don't know the secret handshake so I don't know who the public relations people are either. Maybe that's the problem. Nobody is out there spreading the good word educating hunters on sound management. 

A lot of hunters I have spoke to think QDMA's goal is to take away their ability to kill deer to eat. I know this is wrong as do you. But with out explaining this to them we can not get regulations passed to further manage our states deer herd as a whole.


----------



## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

midmimike said:


> The purpose was to be sarcastic as I hope the above post and your post was.
> 
> *PALM TO FACE:lol:*


 I was just being a smartass,dont mind me.


----------



## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

C'Mon Beetlebomb get in the mix here! We need a story.&#128513; These boys are throwing haymakers!!!


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

beetlebomb said:


> I dont think theres much doubt that state land deer are more wary than deer hunted around where there is more human activity.


That has been my experience, but they become accustomed to certain routine human activities wherever they live. I've had them feeding on one end of a cedar tree while I was running a chainsaw at the other end. This was on private land, but I've heard guys who log on state land say that the same thing happened to them with red maple. Chainsaws equal food. So why don't more hunters on state land take a chainsaw with them, run it for about ten minutes, shut it off, and then wait for the deer to show up? They don't have to cut any trees, just pretend. :lol:


----------



## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

There are dumb deer on state land. That's why I started bow hunting. By the beginning of November they are all dead or gone.


----------



## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

midmimike said:


> *Hunting state land has improved my ability* to walk past other hunters set up on two tracks and not feel guilty....
> 
> *Hunting on state land has improved my ability *to stay silent while an Asian guy still hunts under me after I took 5 min to explain to him I am going to hunt on the North side of the road.


Doesn't it drive you crazy when they refuse to learn? :lol::lol::lol:
Do you know if he felt guilty afterward?


----------



## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

midmimike said:


> I don't know the secret handshake so I don't know who the public relations people are either. Maybe that's the problem. Nobody is out there spreading the good word educating hunters on sound management.


Seriously? Maybe not on the "debate forum". although plenty of deer management education takes place for those interested. Maybe you should frequent the Deer Management and Habitat sub forums and perhaps you'll have a change of heart....and when you're ready, I'll teach you that handshake. :shhh:


----------



## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

midmimike said:


> What we should be working toward is a state wide organization with actual state wide regulations designed to benefit us all...


LPDMI


----------



## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

midmimike said:


> Deer hunting is all about money now. Money made by telling people how to "grow and manage" this commodity. Not all of us make a business out of our hobby and claim it on our taxes.
> 
> *I love state land. It makes me a better hunter*.





midmimike said:


> So I think we can agree there isn't a whole lot of ground breaking things to killing deer. *It's just a lot of hard work and time spent.*





midmimike said:


> *There are dumb deer on state land.* *That's why I started bow hunting*. By the beginning of November they are all dead or gone.


Hunting dumb deer with your bow on state land makes you a better hunter? 

Or is it since you became a bow hunter you kill the dumb deer before November, and that makes you better.

After listening to your posts I not sure you can even answer the question.


----------



## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

QDMAMAN said:


> Doesn't it drive you crazy when they refuse to learn? :lol::lol::lol:
> Do you know if he felt guilty afterward?


I make sure not to set up on two tracks and for the 3rd time these are a sarcastic response to posts above this list.


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## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

I wondered when you were going to chime in RMH. 

I think we can agree hunting deer on state land is harder. Learning when and where to kill the "dumb" deer is the key.

The reference to why I started bow hunting is because I can hunt these deer before they receive pressure and smarten up. We can all agree early season deer are far less jumpy than November deer. 

You really tried on that one RMH. Taking all those quotes out of context almost made up for you bowing out earlier.


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## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

QDMAMAN said:


> Seriously? Maybe not on the "debate forum". although plenty of deer management education takes place for those interested. Maybe you should frequent the Deer Management and Habitat sub forums and perhaps you'll have a change of heart....and when you're ready, I'll teach you that handshake. :shhh:


Instead of trying to ambush me take the time to read my posts. Your arrogance is why many hunters dislike QDMA. I agree with many management practices but if more was done to spread the praises of it we could get laws passed to help us all. Not just those lucky enough to own land. 

A man who uses a screen name with QDMA should understand that just posting about these practices online is not enough. Even if there is a sub forum dedicated to it. There are over 700,000 deer hunters in MI. How many frequent these forums?


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

midmimike said:


> Instead of trying to ambush me take the time to read my posts. I agree with many management practices *but if more was done to spread the praises of it *we could get laws passed to help us all. Not just those lucky enough to own land.
> 
> A man who uses a screen name with QDMA should understand tha*t just posting about these practices online is not enough.* Even if there is a sub forum dedicated to it.




You don't know why he is QDMAMAN.

Trust me...........he has done more in the real world to help promote QDM than every member of this site combined has. 
He also along with Bioactive spent an entire year or more (not to mention the money they spent) trying to get a law passed to improve our hunting.( and yes that is subjective I suppose to ones opinion so lets just leave it at that)

Like he said visit the management forum and the habitat forum a little bit more...............that is where most of the educational threads are.

This site could use some more hunting tactic threads beyond property set ups now that I think of it.


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## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

bucksnbows said:


> This site could use some more hunting tactic threads beyond property set ups now that I think of it.


I can agree with that. I think the big antler chest thumping would be lower if more people talked about how they helped someone else get a deer.


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## midmimike (Jan 4, 2014)

I have no problem with the man personally but if he chimes in on the "debate forum" in an argumentative way that's what happens. A professional representative of an organization would never step in this conversation in that manner. He would state what he does and explain how they are improving our deer management situation. Then I would have more respect for him and so would anyone else who reads this. 

I might even see what I could do to help the organization. Because like most of us here I believe Michigan has all that is needed to be a destination deer state like our neighbors.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

bucksnbows said:


> You don't know why he is QDMAMAN.
> 
> Trust me...........he has done more in the real world to help promote QDM than every member of this site combined has.
> He also along with Bioactive spent an entire year or more (not to mention the money they spent) trying to get a law passed to improve our hunting.( and yes that is subjective I suppose to ones opinion so lets just leave it at that)
> ...


 What Law would that be?


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

WinkyJ said:


> I can agree with that. I think the big antler chest thumping would be lower if more people talked about how they helped someone else get a deer.



Nope..... Big antler chest thing has and always will be present in the hunting community. Today's technology just makes it easier to hear. 

But yes it's not too often a good hunting tactic thread pops up. 
This is the time of year we should be preparing for the up coming season. Many times hunters ask for advice during the season and a lot of the time their changes are already spoiled. 

Like looking for land to hunt... You have a much better chance of finding one months before the season and a much better chance of killing a deer by having a plan going into the season.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

GIDEON said:


> What Law would that be?



Ok I should of said hunting regulation.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

sniper said:


> C'Mon Beetlebomb get in the mix here! We need a story.&#55357;&#56833; These boys are throwing haymakers!!!



Thanks for the invite Sniper but I'm leaving tomorrow for 2 weeks in Switzerland. And I must have packed and repacked the bags six times! I'm a nervous wreck! 
I've got three 40oz. jars of Jif peanut butter in there, 4 bottles of Hidden Valley Ranch dressing and I bet a thousand bucks worth of cosmetics for my son's wife. Oh yeah, and the "Atari Flashback 4" classic game console.
And I have to keep it all under 50lbs! When I visit they load me up with goodies they either can't buy over there or are way too expensive.

I don't mind the flying, in fact I melt when I finally sit down in the plane. It's all this packing, making sure to get there on time, worrying about flight cancellations, etc. 
And....we be staying in Rome for a week this time!


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

midmimike said:


> I wondered when you were going to chime in RMH.
> 
> I think we can agree hunting deer on state land is harder. Learning when and where to kill the "dumb" deer is the key.
> 
> ...


I have not tried Jack****. I asked you a simple question you still have refused to answer. If you would rather not answer you could have just said so.

Instead you have been on a tangent looking to duke it out with anybody about QDM and such. You have refused to have any reasonable conversation. 

My interest with your post was "why you felt state land made you a better hunter". That's it!!! I wondered because I feel the exact opposite. I hunt state land and private land. I have learned so much more on private and feel I am better hunter from it, no matter where I hunt now. 

Some examples of why I feel hunting private land has made me a better hunter:
1. Deer numbers are higher on private, more interaction, I see deer throughout the day, I hear them talk and watch them dump, eat, sleep. 
2. When I started to see more deer that lead me to grow to become selective. Interested in the whole herd instead of just a deer.
3. When I started hunting private my interest sparked in habitat and learning about the trees, shrubs and forbs and food plots deer prefer. 
4. Add internet and I got easy access to learn these things that I can apply to my private land.
5. Internet brought me to the QDMA where like minded people meet, hang out, discuss, teach, share and learn different hunting and habitat techniques you can apply to private land, and that helped make me a better hunter.

I have been involved hunting private land for around 12 years now and it has made me a better state land hunter.


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