# Uncomfortable encounter with a C.O.



## PalookaJim (Sep 24, 2015)

Earlier this week I met an old friend after an evening hunt for a quick beer and a burger. We hunted about 10 miles from each other in north central lower Michigan. I was in an APR area. My friend was not. He was fortunate to have killed a big fat forkhorn that night. It was in the back of the truck. As we left the bar, a C.O. came roaring over from across the street... almost like he was hiding there waiting for us. Right away it was questions about where we had been. Where we hunted. Who shot the deer. Exactly where was the deer killed, and I mean EXACTLY. He takes me aside and starts to tell me that he knows I was there and he knows the deer was shot in an APR zone. He persists for 10 minutes in telling me he has proof, and making sure I was aware of the penalty for illegally taking a deer. IT'S NOT EVEN MY DEER! Then he goes over to my friend and demands to see the gut pile. RIGHT THEN! My friend tells the C.O. that if he is willing to fork over $100 to cover gas and time, He'd be happy to drive 15 miles and show him. Otherwise, he said, conversation over. The C.O. then wants _MY_ I.D. and deer license. My buddy screams at me to leave my wallet in my pocket and dials 911 right there on speakerphone. He told dispatch we were being harassed and wanted to see an officer right away before things got "out of hand" In 10 seconds it was over. The C.O. just up and left.
I have to say, right or wrong, I've never seen a guy stand up for himself like that. It was pretty cool.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

If you do not know your rights you have none. I'd like to buy your buddy a beer.


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## Leelanauman (May 16, 2008)

Unbelievable story....I can't believe that actually happened. I've never had a negative experience with a CO...there's no place for that kind of harassment.


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## SWMbruiser (Jan 25, 2012)

What's to say a bait pile isn't wiped out by yotes already? Lol. Whole incident is just full of head scratches. Good for you guys for not rolling over.


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## PalookaJim (Sep 24, 2015)

Leelanauman said:


> Unbelievable story....I can't believe that actually happened. I've never had a negative experience with a CO...there's no place for that kind of harassment.


Me either. I've always been treated respectfully and fairly. Im not sure I would personally characterize it as harassment, But the guy was certainly barking up the wrong tree.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

I would be lodging a complaint against that CO. He had no right treating either of you like that. His behavior was horrendous. Lying and bullying has no place in law enforcement.


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

He was fishing....hoping someone would admit to something under intimidation...........he had nothing.


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## fanrwing (Jul 31, 2010)

I haven't heard of that type of action by a CO in many years, 25, 30 years ago you heard stories like that quite often. Friends of mine and me had similar experiences. Had one CO check my license 3 times in one day.


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## PalookaJim (Sep 24, 2015)

ART said:


> He was fishing....hoping someone would admit to something under intimidation...........he had nothing.


It's interesting you say that. It reminds me a lot of a TV show called North Woods Law I think. These "Game Wardens" in Maine are constantly approaching suspects without a shred of real evidence. They make things up and threaten the poor kids with 5 yrs in prison. It gets a full confession every time.


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## 2508speed (Jan 6, 2011)

Leelanauman said:


> Unbelievable story....I can't believe that actually happened. I've never had a negative experience with a CO...there's no place for that kind of harassment.


I don't believe it either.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

I have never seen anything like that with a MI CO either. I made a Federal Duck Cop unhappy once cause he wanted to tear my handloads open and it got a bit dicey for a minute but it all worked out.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

357Maximum said:


> I have never seen anything like that with a MI CO either. I made a Federal Duck Cop unhappy once cause he wanted to tear my handloads open and it got a bit dicey for a minute but it all worked out.


I have been stopped twice with handloads. I use a shell that says lead but I Ioad steel in them. Both times had no issue. One CO just picked one up after I explained handloads and he shook it next to his ear and said no problem. The other had a meter type device that had a needle. He put it up to the shell and said I was good. 

Seems odd that a federal officer wouldn't be prepared for that situation.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

what was the co name.....I think it bull shet some one drank to much for thanks giveing


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## A.M. General (May 3, 2001)

Do you have a co name or description and what county?


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

This kind of fishing harassment seems to be too common anymore. A couple of local women who hunt have been accused of letting their husbands tag deer with their tags, the pressure put on them has been unreasonable. If you read the DNR bi-weekly reports you often hear the comment, " After a lengthy interrogation a confession was obtained", what they don't say is many innocent people we also harassed and interrogated at length. I support the DNR when they have evidence but random fishing expeditions are wrong. My father and I were questioned separately several years ago about a deer my daughter shot during the youth hunt trying to get one of us to admit that she didn't shoot the deer. They told me that my father had admitted shooting the deer and really pressed me to come clean. What made it really funny was my dad was at the mayo clinic at the time the deer was shot. I know they need to investigate things but they went way overboard. My dad was the only one who enjoyed the whole scenario, he would act like he was giving up and say things like, " I might of shot that deer, no I don't think I did". The more pressure they put on him the more confused and hesitant he acted until he told them he was tired and they had to leave. They realized he had been playing with them and told him they would be watching him. The whole deal left a bad taste in my mouth.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

DirtySteve said:


> I have been stopped twice with handloads. I use a shell that says lead but I Ioad steel in them. Both times had no issue. One CO just picked one up after I explained handloads and he shook it next to his ear and said no problem. The other had a meter type device that had a needle. He put it up to the shell and said I was good.
> 
> Seems odd that a federal officer wouldn't be prepared for that situation.



This was 10-12 years ago on the Martiny chain. He too ended up shaking it after a mild protest from me about hacking it apart and sent me on my way. The hulls were 3inch Federal compression formed 00 buck hulls with #2 steel in them. Never even checked for a license just the shells and a life jacket. ???????


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## langkg (Oct 26, 2004)

Uuuummmm...magnet would work just fine I think...!!



DirtySteve said:


> I have been stopped twice with handloads. I use a shell that says lead but I Ioad steel in them. Both times had no issue. One CO just picked one up after I explained handloads and he shook it next to his ear and said no problem. The other had a meter type device that had a needle. He put it up to the shell and said I was good.
> 
> Seems odd that a federal officer wouldn't be prepared for that situation.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

langkg said:


> Uuuummmm...magnet would work just fine I think...!!


Sure if you are only checking for steel. This gizmo had a function for other shot like bismuth and tungsten according to the officer it would tell him exactly what it was. I didn't ask how it worked....maybe checks density?


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## fishx65 (Aug 24, 2005)

Sometimes people in law enforcement think they are more intelligent then everybody else. I'm guessing it stems from dealing with a lot of stupid criminals on a daily basis. Guilty until proven innocent! Or is it the other way around?


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## 2508speed (Jan 6, 2011)

fishx65 said:


> Sometimes people in law enforcement think they are more intelligent then everybody else. I'm guessing it stems from dealing with a lot of stupid criminals on a daily basis. Guilty until proven innocent! Or is it the other way around?


My guess is if you hunt on the fringe of APR and bordering counties, you should not display your fork horn on the APR side of the zone. Go to the other county. Still don't believe it!


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## Whitetail Freak (Nov 10, 2008)

2508speed said:


> My guess is if you hunt on the fringe of APR and bordering counties, you should not display your fork horn on the APR side of the zone. Go to the other county. Still don't believe it!


Probably had the tailgate down too.


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## PalookaJim (Sep 24, 2015)

A.M. General said:


> Do you have a co name or description and what county?[/QUOTE
> 
> Of course I have a name and county. I was there. If the goal of your post is to question authenticity, I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Sorry, I don't intend to share either for obvious reasons.


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## 96215 (Jul 14, 2014)

Yep, I'm sure this actually happened, and this is why APR's are bad.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

*LEO's CAN LEGALLY LIE TO YOU*. 

The police do not decide your charges; they can only make recommendations. The prosecutor is the only person who can actually charge you. Remember this the next time the cops start rattling off all the charges they're supposedly "going to give you."

One of the jobs of cops is to get information out of people, and they usually don't have any scruples about how they do it. Cops are legally allowed to lie when they're investigating, and they are trained to be manipulative. The only thing you should say to cops, other than identifying yourself, is the Magic Words: "I am going to remain silent. I want to see a lawyer." 

Interesting Article: *How To Deal With Police Officers - Magic Words?*

Been stated in the forums here many times.

Steve


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

I don't doubt this happened one bit.Last winter while I was ice fishing a CO came to check licences.So I gave him my fishing licence and my driver licence.Then he starts asking me all the information from Driver licence.Name,address,b-day,endorsements and the whole 9 yards.He could clearly see that it was me from my picture.I am just as ugly in person as I am in the picture on my ID.So what was up with that.


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## Mike4282 (Jul 25, 2010)

I'll call BS on this story ... I'm sure there was more to it... if your asked for i.d by a peace officer you present it. As for the rest of the story I'm not buying it.. Drink up


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## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

PalookaJim said:


> He told dispatch we were being harassed and wanted to see an officer right away before things got "out of hand" In 10 seconds it was over. The C.O. just up and left.
> I have to say, right or wrong, I've never seen a guy stand up for himself like that. It was pretty cool.


Your friend handled it well and like any dignified American citizen should if being harassed by an over zealous LEO.


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## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

2508speed said:


> My guess is if you hunt on the fringe of APR and bordering counties, you should not display your fork horn on the APR side of the zone. Go to the other county. Still don't believe it!


Come on speed. Now a person shouldn't travel freely from one game zone to another?


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

This dangerous attitude of “know your rights” with a cop is all over YouTube and Facebook and can land you in jail or, dead. To carry this attitude makes you a potential self destructive time bomb in a cop situation that could escalate. 
There’s no doubt in my mind if you guys had come on as agreeable it would have never reached the point of asking to be shown the gut pile. And most certainly, the CO would have dropped it right there if this guy had agreed to show that pile.


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## Rainbowjack (Jul 10, 2015)

Guilty til proven innocent is LEO's motto. Been around them on a personal and professional level for decades


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Haha. Doesn't surprise me with a co nor does it surprise me with all the other comments. Like the one about having tailgate open, very telling for individuals.


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## Chandler (May 22, 2012)

I believe all of that. There's one CO that has been around the Jackson area where I know multiple of close friends and family whom abide by all the rules who have been had it happen more than once where the CO would come out to their stands during prime time and give them all a hard time and be an a$$ to them and try to get them in trouble any way he could. Luckily I haven't had an encounter with him. I can't remember what his name was but I do know that they've reported him.


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## SWMbruiser (Jan 25, 2012)

beetlebomb said:


> This dangerous attitude of “know your rights” with a cop is all over YouTube and Facebook and can land you in jail or, dead. To carry this attitude makes you a potential self destructive time bomb in a cop situation that could escalate.
> There’s no doubt in my mind if you guys had come on as agreeable it would have never reached the point of asking to be shown the gut pile. And most certainly, the CO would have dropped it right there if this guy had agreed to show that pile.


I sometimes hunt 2 hrs from home or the U.P. and bring deer back If I got stopped at home and a C.O. wanted to see my gut pile to prove where I shot it? I am gonna tell him to go pound sand. If he is so certain the deer was poached out of an APR zone he should have caught me in the APR zone.

And people wonder why black people hate cops so much


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## Blueump (Aug 20, 2005)

SWMbruiser said:


> And people wonder why black people hate cops so much



This thread just took an ugly an unnecessary turn!


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

2508speed said:


> My guess is if you hunt on the fringe of APR and bordering counties, you should not display your fork horn on the APR side of the zone. Go to the other county. Still don't believe it!


If it shot legally display it were ever you want!!! Grow a pair.


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## weatherby (Mar 26, 2001)

The state of Michigan just hired a bunch of new officers. Unfortunately once they go thru training and start going out on their own it is a learning situation for them and more than one has been known to be gun ho and may go overboard till they see what style works best for them. I believe that happened but I also believe for every gun ho office you have 10 great ones. Just the luck of the draw which one checked you. In the end it is his word vs yours so your best off learning and moving on from the situation


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## bmoffit (Dec 3, 2007)

Mike4282 said:


> I'll call BS on this story ... I'm sure there was more to it... if your asked for i.d by a peace officer you present it. As for the rest of the story I'm not buying it.. Drink up


Times 2.....Pot stirrer.. must be related to the "Poolaka Joe" that was booted out of here last year


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## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

Give it a break, guys.

CO's put their lives on the line every day in this state. How many of you go into a thicket every day where you know somebody is armed and potentially hiding....especially for the pay they make.

If any of you have read through the CO reports, I am guessing that this is how many of the confessions are obtained.

I've been on the other end, where I've needed their help and have gotten it. I am glad they are hiring more and hope that they are able to continue to catch law breakers.

I can understand the OP's frustration, but it sounds like all ended well.


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## Whitetail Freak (Nov 10, 2008)

beer and nuts said:


> Haha. Doesn't surprise me with a co nor does it surprise me with all the other comments. Like the one about having tailgate open, very telling for individuals.


Probably not a very good idea to cruise around an apr county with your tailgate down and a forked horn in the back. I'm kinda skeptical of the post also.


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## Whitetail Freak (Nov 10, 2008)

bmoffit said:


> Times 2.....Pot stirrer.. must be related to the "Poolaka Joe" that was booted out of here last year


Yeah that's what I was thinking, joe did have some unbelievable stories. Must be brothers.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

Whitetail Freak said:


> Probably not a very good idea to cruise around an apr county with your tailgate down and a forked horn in the back. I'm kinda skeptical of the post also.


Reread the original post instead of embellishing the story with unknown facts. The OP didn't say the bar was in an APR zone, only that he hunted in one and his buddy didn't. 

He certainly didn't say he was "cruising around an APR area with a forkhorn in the back and the tailgate down". 

Why not just stick to the facts of the story instead of making BS up?

:sad:


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## Whitetail Freak (Nov 10, 2008)

bucko12pt said:


> Reread the original post instead of embellishing the story with unknown facts. The OP didn't say the bar was in an APR zone, only that he hunted in one and his buddy didn't.
> 
> He certainly didn't say he was "cruising around an APR area with a forkhorn in the back and the tailgate down".
> 
> ...


I didn't say he had his tailgate down, I said he probably had his tailgate down too. This thread is a story, like in a child's book. I can read, how about you? Go back and reread the whole thread.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Im still calling bs......I just don't see a co leaveing because a cops comeing..lmfao


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

motdean said:


> Give it a break, guys.
> 
> CO's put their lives on the line every day in this state.
> 
> Farmers, loggers and construction workers are more apt to be killed or seriously injured on the job, so are they the ones who the proverbial, "lay their life on the line," should refer to?


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

motdean said:


> Give it a break, guys.
> 
> CO's put their lives on the line every day in this state. How many of you go into a thicket every day where you know somebody is armed and potentially hiding....especially for the pay they make.
> 
> ...


I hear what your saying and for the most part agree. But I'm a grown man, and nobody is gonna disrespect me and treat me like I don't know anything. That badge doesn't mean that you can talk and treat anybody any type of way. There is no doubt that CO's and police officers have a very difficult job but treating people with respect goes a long way.


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## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

2508speed said:


> My guess is if you hunt on the fringe of APR and bordering counties, you should not display your fork horn on the APR side of the zone. Go to the other county. Still don't believe it!


He's lucky the deer was still in the back of the truck when they came back out, and not being processed in a locals pole barn.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

beetlebomb said:


> This dangerous attitude of “know your rights” with a cop is all over YouTube and Facebook and can land you in jail or, dead. To carry this attitude makes you a potential self destructive time bomb in a cop situation that could escalate.
> There’s no doubt in my mind if you guys had come on as agreeable it would have never reached the point of asking to be shown the gut pile. And most certainly, the CO would have dropped it right there if this guy had agreed to show that pile.


You only way that a situation would escalate to jail or death when asserting your rights is when you're dealing with a rogue cop that thinks beating and shooting citizens is acceptable.


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## casscityalum (Aug 27, 2007)

Not sure what to think either. Joe and Jim are too close together in names lol. 

My hunting partner/best friend Mis I'd a doe for a spike that had one point under 3" and other was 3.25" last sat night. 

We are in the apr zone. He called the rap line soon as he found the deer. Co called him and said to hunt in the morning and he would be over around 9/10. Experience was nothing but a pleasure. Co took the deer and buddy had to punch his one tag was the end result. 

Co told him not to let it get to him and to go back out hunting. Friend was very pleased and happy he did the right thing and never felt scared or harassed. 

We are only a 1/2 mile from the boarder so I think the co was very happy to have received the call.


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

casscityalum said:


> Not sure what to think either. Joe and Jim are too close together in names lol.
> 
> My hunting partner/best friend Mis I'd a doe for a spike that had one point under 3" and other was 3.25" last sat night.
> 
> ...


no ticket =no evidence= it never happened....sounds like somebody got a free deer....


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## FISHMANMARK (Jun 11, 2007)

ART said:


> no ticket =no evidence= it never happened....sounds like somebody got a free deer....




#forkhornlivesmatter


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

ART said:


> no ticket =no evidence= it never happened....sounds like somebody got a free deer....



If it was called into a rap line there is evidence it happened. The call is recorded. The officers lieutenant would be following up on matters Called in to rap line to make sure they are dealt with.

That being said I assume this deer went to a recipient in need. If not an individual to a sportsman's against hunger type of organization.

Sounds like this worked out perfectly.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Two years ago a buddy hunting with me shot a spike in late anterless season...He called co on him self and co came out and took the deer...There was no ticket issued, guess he got a free deer to. He told us deer was going to be donated.......


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I know of a case where the CO was right and a guy had to hike almost 2 miles in at 7:00 at night to show a CO a buck that he had shot and gutted then left it in the woods hoisted up a tree not tagged. He had blood on his hands and had not used his tag. To make matters worse they had to drag the deer out of the woods and it was confiscated.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

bucko12pt said:


> Reread the original post instead of embellishing the story with unknown facts. The OP didn't say the bar was in an APR zone, only that he hunted in one and his buddy didn't.
> 
> He certainly didn't say he was "cruising around an APR area with a forkhorn in the back and the tailgate down".
> 
> ...


On point Bucko.


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## beetlebomb (Feb 5, 2014)

petronius said:


> You only way that a situation would escalate to jail or death when asserting your rights is when you're dealing with a rogue cop that thinks beating and shooting citizens is acceptable.


I’ve read dozens of fatal cop confrontation stories online and this one not more than a month ago:

Cop stops all American white high school kid for flashing his brights at him one night. Officer asks for I.D. and the kid says he didn’t do anything wrong and won’t show I.D….. even after repeated requests.

Cop finally asks him to get out of the car but he won’t do that either. 

Cop drags him out of the car and proceeds to try and handcuff this kid who is likely on the wrestling team and taking steroids (way more common than you think). 

Kid jumps up and proceeds to pound the cop who is completely over powered and is losing consciousness. Cop shoots the kid fearing if he loses consciousness the kid will shoot him with his own gun. 

There are similar stories all over the internet and none of these cops were “rogues”.


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## mal (Feb 18, 2002)

I've hunted the same property in the SLP for over 20 years and until this year I never even saw a CO drive down the road past the property. So far this year I've seen the local CO 3 times...he checked me over during bow season as I exited the woods, then stopped by again opening day of gun season twice, once to "chat" then again 30 minutes later to check out my buck that I had dragged up to my truck (checking for tag I'm sure). I'm always legal as are my guests, but since there is one CO for the entire county I get the suspicion someone local has been calling him on me just to be a d-bag, or he thinks he will one day randomly catch me doing something wrong. Coincidentally he never seems to show up to check the various inbred dipsh*ts that get permission from the local mega-farmer (even though he owns wide open fields and to hunt them they need to trespass by sitting in my woods or fencerows).


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

mal said:


> I've hunted the same property in the SLP for over 20 years and until this year I never even saw a CO drive down the road past the property. So far this year I've seen the local CO 3 times...he checked me over during bow season as I exited the woods, then stopped by again opening day of gun season twice, once to "chat" then again 30 minutes later to check out my buck that I had dragged up to my truck (checking for tag I'm sure). I'm always legal as are my guests, but since there is one CO for the entire county I get the suspicion someone local has been calling him on me just to be a d-bag, or he thinks he will one day randomly catch me doing something wrong. Coincidentally he never seems to show up to check the various inbred dipsh*ts that get permission from the local mega-farmer (even though he owns wide open fields and to hunt them they need to trespass by sitting in my woods or fencerows).



You may be right. However there is also big increase in dnr this yr. If you live in an area without state land for them to patrol and you park in a place they can see you from the road you may be the only person around they can check..


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

beetlebomb said:


> I’ve read dozens of fatal cop confrontation stories online and this one not more than a month ago:
> 
> Cop stops all American white high school kid for flashing his brights at him one night. Officer asks for I.D. and the kid says he didn’t do anything wrong and won’t show I.D….. even after repeated requests.
> 
> ...


Two sides to every story. 

One says this is what happened and that other things were "likely" to have contributed because they have in other, unrelated instances and are" way more common than you think".

The other side says what? Nothing. Nothing is also way more common than you think. 

People make mistakes, people make decisions, people aren't perfect. _Our_ and _people_ include the police. Accountability for our actions is justice served. 

Anyone who makes their living on the front lines will invariably have to suffer the indignity of others looking over their shoulder. Part of the job, a very important part in my opinion.


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## PalookaJim (Sep 24, 2015)

To clairify...the deer was shot in a non APR area. It was legally tagged and placed in the back of an open pickup truck. The tailgate was closed (why this has become an issue I'll never know). The bar we met at was in a non APR area. (Again, why this matters is a mystery to me)


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## Bowhunt (Jul 27, 2010)

ART said:


> no ticket =no evidence= it never happened....sounds like somebody got a free deer....


I am glad you can spew negativity with every post. A guy made a mistake on a deer, did the honorable thing and reported himself. The CO, seeing the character of the individual, doesn't issue a citation but is required to take the deer. And your sour attitude has to assume that someone gets a free deer.... And who cares if someone did. Usually they go to needy individuals, foodbanks or some other reasonable cause rather than to waste. You have to love dreary, rainy days like today.


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

I had a similar encounter a few years ago, however not quite as harassing. We hunt in he NE lower where if u buy the combo there is an APR, however you can put any tag on a doe in any season. We got stopped twice on the same deer, once at the cabin and once as we got off the highway on our way home.

As we were coming in from hunting I noticed a CO at the property across the street , as I was walking up the road from the fed Forrest where I hunt back to my cabin the CO left their cabin and came right over to ours , he got out of his truck and walked into the back yard , I picked up my pace and quickly addressed the CO, "hello my name is mike I have a cpl and I am carrying , is there something I can help you with?" , he said he just wanted to check the tag on the deer , I asked "do you have reason to believe a crime has been committed (immediately believing in my 4th amendment rights), he said no he was just checking ,I said well I have nothing to hide and showed him the deer and tag and he left.

On the way home we got pulled over by a CO (which I thought was really weird ) again I addressed him the same way as I was driving , my uncle in the backseat rolled down his window and informed the co that he too had a cpl and was carrying. The CO questioned us much the same as the OP as to where the deer was shot, which at this point I could understand because we were well outside the zone where this would be a legal tag to put on a doe. After his mood lightened and he asked if I knew why he had questioned , I responded with yes "because the rules are so complicated to understand and there are different rules for the same license in different zones". Well he agreed and stated "the rules are even difficult for CO's to understand and he believed that if 8 year olds could hunt then the rules should be easy enough for an 8 year old to understand even if they had to be written in crayon". He expressed his frustrations as well and said if he goes to a butcher he sometimes had to follow up and make called on 30 to 40 deer. 

In the end it was frustrating but also very informative and ended with us getting the deer to the butcher anyway....


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

mkriep2006 said:


> I had a similar encounter a few years ago, however not quite as harassing. We hunt in he NE lower where if u buy the combo there is an APR, however you can put any tag on a doe in any season. We got stopped twice on the same deer, once at the cabin and once as we got off the highway on our way home.
> 
> As we were coming in from hunting I noticed a CO at the property across the street , as I was walking up the road from the fed Forrest where I hunt back to my cabin the CO left their cabin and came right over to man , he got out of his truck and walked into the back yard , I picked up my pace and quickly addressed the CO, "hello my name is mike I have a cpl and I am carrying , is there something I can help you with?" , he said he just wanted to check the tag on the deer , I asked "do you have reason to believe a crime has been committed (immediately believing in my 4th amendment rights), he said no he was just checking ,I said well I have nothing to hide and showed him the deer and tag and he left.
> 
> ...


I think you've described the proper way to handle an encounter. There are no casual encounters. Treating each encounter as the formal encounter it is, is proper and need not be viewed as adversarial or improper.


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## PalookaJim (Sep 24, 2015)

Mike4282 said:


> I'll call BS on this story ... I'm sure there was more to it... if your asked for i.d by a peace officer you present it. As for the rest of the story I'm not buying it.. Drink up


No BS in this story. Sure, this is a condensed version, but the bones are accurate and complete. As far as presenting I.D. to a peace officer just because he asks for it...well, I'll leave it decision up to the individual. Strictly speaking, one is not obliged to show a LEO anything if not suspected of committing a crime. And by that I mean a charge that the LEO can articulate and reasonably prove. In this situation, I was under absolutely no obligation to show the CO my I.D. or my hunting license. Period.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I've been in the woods for over 50 years. I've had dozen's, possibly over 100 encounters with CO's and Wildlife LEO's. In multiple states, day and night, in season, and out of season. On all matter of species.
I've never ever had any kind of an interaction like that the OP reported.

My worry is that the "I know my rights" crowd will ultimately get some boring old guy like myself killed by a CO.
They'll start expecting that every boring old dude they ask to see his license is going to want to throw down, cause "it's his right".

At a minimum, they'll just start inconveniencing the "I know my rights!" crowd with brief detainments short of charges, because of the belligerent attitude shown, coupled with possession of firearms. They can never be too careful. Whether you are seen as a danger to the community is a judgement call that is quite an inconvenience. Sitting there 3 hours while satellites are linking up, only to find out you're the infamous "Tater Salad".

And before y'all start on me, I've had the fishing interrogation questions many times. There's no harm in asking you to incriminate yourself. It's amazing how often it works.

From my boring, law abiding, mind-your-own-business view, people that are all hunched up looking for a fight all the time, seem to end up finding more than they want. But that's just my view. What do I know.


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Nothing negative about it.....just observation of apparent facts....


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## ronhunter2007 (Jan 18, 2012)

Make the state all APR and we would not have to worry about zones!!


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Bowhunt said:


> I am glad you can spew negativity with every post. A guy made a mistake on a deer, did the honorable thing and reported himself. The CO, seeing the character of the individual, doesn't issue a citation but is required to take the deer. And your sour attitude has to assume that someone gets a free deer.... And who cares if someone did. Usually they go to needy individuals, foodbanks or some other reasonable cause rather than to waste. You have to love dreary, rainy days like today.


You sure read a lot into this...is this better for your overly sensitive side...
Golly gee Whittakers, a guy made a mistake, and the warden, being the kind man that he is, only made him punch his tag, and then the kind officer gave the deer to the poor in their time of need..this make me feel all warm and fuzzy....I wish it could turn out this good everytime....


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## lizajane (Jul 31, 2008)

Mike4282 said:


> I'll call BS on this story ... I'm sure there was more to it... if your asked for i.d by a peace officer you present it. As for the rest of the story I'm not buying it.. Drink up


Hold on. I was asked by a State Trooper when I was a passenger in my wife's truck. I do not have to shoe him ID unless I am being arrested or detained.


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## Bowhunt (Jul 27, 2010)

ART said:


> You sure read a lot into this...is this better for your overly sensitive side...
> Golly gee Whittakers, a guy made a mistake, and the warden, being the kind man that he is, only made him punch his tag, and then the kind officer gave the deer to the poor in their time of need..this make me feel all warm and fuzzy....I wish it could turn out this good everytime....


Still raining out!!! You continue to make my point. Nothing about being sensitive. Just don't get what is wrong with a guy, who had the guts to call an admit a self-violation on a deer that was very borderline, not being given a citation. I am sure you have never made a mistake. If you ever do, I am sure you wish you would have a similar experience. But I get the sense you would be sneaking back to the barn with it, unreported, hurrying to get back to your computer so you can get in here and criticize others.


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Bowhunt said:


> Still raining out!!! You continue to make my point. Nothing about being sensitive. Just don't get what is wrong with a guy, who had the guts to call an admit a self-violation on a deer that was very borderline, not being given a citation. I am sure you have never made a mistake. If you ever do, I am sure you wish you would have a similar experience. But I get the sense you would be sneaking back to the barn with it, unreported, hurrying to get back to your computer so you can get in here and criticize others.


You don't get it that I didn't really mean anything good or bad about it, just an observation...you should be writing novels..you have drama down....


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

Gamekeeper said:


> I've been in the woods for over 50 years. I've had dozen's, possibly over 100 encounters with CO's and Wildlife LEO's. In multiple states, day and night, in season, and out of season. On all matter of species.
> I've never ever had any kind of an interaction like that the OP reported.
> 
> My worry is that the "I know my rights" crowd will ultimately get some boring old guy like myself killed by a CO.
> ...


It is a disheartening position in my opinion o that someone standing up for their rights as a free citizen somehow inconveniences you.

If one has done nothing wrong they have no obligation to answer any questions of any law enforcement officer, they have no duty to oblige requests of a law enforcement officer who is on an evidentiary fishing expedition. These are the foundations of our freedoms in this country. Both 4th and 5th amendment rights. 

As someone already stated when you don't know or assert your rights you have none ,

100 encounters with conservation officers, that's unreal , I have been in the woods and rivers for 23 years( more count before i was 12) and have only ever had 2 encounters , both were on the same deer as I described above


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Heck, goose hunt near the Midland Co-gen, and you might get visited everyday.
Drive around Kansas at night during deer season with out of state plates and you'll get the lights.
You guys only inconvenience yourself.
No wildlife criminal gets to decide before they are confronted whether they are innocent or not. 

Evidently you somehow figure you can't be subject to LEO inquiry, just because you are you, and have decided they have no right.
Sorry Charlie, it doesn't work that way.

Get all pumped up every time you see their truck checking tags, and sooner or later they'll increase your inconvenience.


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## sparky18181 (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't believe it either. I don't think anyone is going to intimidate a CO and make him run off. Yes he can lie to get answers. Part of the job is to be a good interrogator I'm sure there is more to this story than is being told. But whatever. If you don't have anything to hide and have done nothing wrong, then don't worry about it.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

petronius said:


> Lying and bullying has no place in law enforcement.


Hate to point this out, but while it is illegal to lie to a LEO, they legally can and do lie to people all the time in the course of an investigation.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

I bet the co couldnt sleep after someone called the police..god this is just to funny.......thnx op for makeing my day with this bs......lmfao


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

sparky18181 said:


> I don't believe it either. I don't think anyone is going to intimidate a CO and make him run off. Yes he can lie to get answers. Part of the job is to be a good interrogator I'm sure there is more to this story than is being told. But whatever. *If you don't have anything to hide and have done nothing wrong, then don't worry about it.*


Tell that to the people who have been falsely accused, arrested and sometimes convicted.


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## hoffie1 (Dec 31, 2001)

jr28schalm said:


> I bet the co couldnt sleep after someone called the police..god this is just to funny.......thnx op for makeing my day with this bs......lmfao


I think the reason the co left was not the threat of police but had no grouds to go futher?


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

hoffie1 said:


> I think the reason the co left was not the threat of police but had no grouds to go futher?


 I know our sheriff and most of the deputies in our county and if I thought a CO was over the line I wouldn't hesitate to call and request a deputy be present. We had a CO in Mason county for a while that was over the line on more than one occasion and I know the sheriff's department did not approve of his actions and most of the deputies called him the "Fish Cop".


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

Gamekeeper said:


> Heck, goose hunt near the Midland Co-gen, and you might get visited everyday.
> Drive around Kansas at night during deer season with out of state plates and you'll get the lights.
> You guys only inconvenience yourself.
> No wildlife criminal gets to decide before they are confronted whether they are innocent or not.
> ...


Hopefully I can help you understand rights and the way the law works. First EVERY individual in this great nation is indeed innocent until proven guilty, in a court of law.....not on the side of the road..... Evidentiary fishing expeditions violate the federal constitution , a LEO or a CO can not simply poke around and question you just to see if they can find something illegal. Much like they can't just walk in your house to see if they can find something to bust you on. Now with the OP's situation yes the CO did indeed have sufficient justification to question where the deer was shot, it was an animal that was plainly visible in an APR zone, when he received the answer and found it was a legally tagged animal without any other evidence the CO would have been without authority to require any further questioning or continue in an evidentiary fishing expedition casting the line out to see if he could find something illegal. In my humble opinion If the CO continued he very well could have subjected himself to suit under 42 USC 1983 for violating the protected rights of a free citizen. 

A LEO can inquire all they want however I/or anyone for that matter does not have to answer to their inquiries, (little thing called the 5th amendment, you know Miranda......)


2nd I have been in 37 of the 50 states sporting out of state plates, as well as i have been in 6 different countries with an out of state ID and an accent that didn't match theirs and I most certainly have not even come close to having 100 encounters with Conservation officers or LEO's of any type, by and large I believe because most CO's and LEO's truly and genuinely do a good job and know and honor their noble duty and they understand the limitations of there position and their authority under the color of law. 

Rights and limitations on the authorities of the state are in place to secure the people from government overreach, to protect individual liberties and to ensure we all continue to enjoy the freedoms that we have. (If you can't tell I am kinda in to the constitution and what it stands for)... One does not have to be a crazy nut job or be hiding something in order to assert and exercise their rights , in fact that is why they are there, to be exercised freely, without being judged. It is an unlawful presumption for an officer to presume that one is guilty, that is not within the authority bestowed upon them. Nor can they presume a crime without evidence. The law does not (well ok let's be honest it does sometimes go that way ) however it is not designed to work that way. 

Again I think by and large LEO's of all types generally do a great job , but it is no secret that there are certainly narcissistic power hungry individuals out there wearing badges that run with the mindset of "do what I say because I wear brass"


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## Camo1 (Oct 22, 2011)

Reading the weekly CO reports it seems they hired a whole bunch of rookie CO this year.

Could be possible this is a new rookie.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I am kind of surprised at the number of people who say they have had issues with CO's. Every encounter I have ever had with one was professional and courteous.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

mkriep2006 said:


> I 100% disagree with your position and I would be happy to cite a barrage of case law if you need the legal proof. The mere presence of a otherwise lawfully possessed firearm is not enough reason to detain or question an individual. So the CO would have 0 authority to detain or question me simply by seeing my lawfully carried side arm. This has been heavily memorialized by the Supreme Court.
> 
> It would also not be uncommon for an individual who knows their rights to say " I decline to answer any further questions , are you charging me with a crime? Or am i free to go?"
> 
> Directions to the gut pile?? Can the officer prove a specific gut pile belongs to that deer without extensive testing that the State is not going to perform? Ok , there's an oak off old road A , you'll walk in the woods their and walk 1 mile straight east , you'll see a little pine tree there , then you will turn north and walk another half mile , go around the pond on the left side , walk completely around it, and end up back where you started at he pond , then turn left and look up, you will see a porcupine on the tree the gut pile is 375 yes due west of there , lemme know if you need better directions


OK, I'll bite. Lets see the case law where a CO (not just any LEO) lost the case because he detained/questioned someone carrying a sidearm in an area frequented by wild game. Not interested in any other case law pertaining to anything other than the above criteria.

Steve


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

hitechman said:


> OK, I'll bite. Lets see the case law where a CO (not just any LEO) lost the case because he detained/questioned someone carrying a sidearm in an area frequented by wild game. Not interested in any other case law pertaining to anything other than the above criteria.
> 
> Steve


A CO is a LEO, therefor any case law that applies to a LEO by nature applies to a CO, and conditions on rights are very very limited , usually containing the phrase "nothing short of the protection of the State" , if a CO approached me because he saw I had a sidearm and asked to see my hunting license I would simply ask why I am not hunting , if he said because I see you have a sidearm , and I would reply , "Is that illegal?" He would say no and I would say "have a nice day" 

Why is it that people think that a CO has more authority than any other officer?? A CO is still bound by the restraints of the federal constituents ,,,. Period. They have no authority to circumvent those protection, not violate the rights of a free citizen.


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

Hitechman, can you name me one town or area that is NOT frequented by wildgame?? As I stated before even Detroit has squirrels


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

mkriep2006 said:


> A CO is a LEO, and conditions on rights are very very limited , usually containing the phrase "nothing short of the protection of the State" , if a CO approached me because he saw I had a sidearm and asked to see my hunting license I would simply ask why I am not hunting , if he said because I see you have a sidearm , and I would reply , "Is that illegal?" He would say no and I would say "have a nice day"
> 
> Why is it that people think that a CO has more authority than any other officer?? A CO is still bound by the restraints of the federal constituents ,,,. Period. They have no authority to circumvent those protection, not violate the rights of a free citizen.


Still waiting for the barrage of case law you said you could provide. I still say if you possess any kind of a firearm (any firearm is capable of taking game) in an area frequented by wild game that the CO can approach and question you and be with in his rights, and not violate your rights.

Steve


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

mkriep2006 said:


> Hitechman, can you name me one town or area that is NOT frequented by wildgame?? As I stated before even Detroit has squirrels


No, but that's not the point. I don't believe there is a squirrel season in Detroit city limits, but that doesn't mean someone wouldn't shoot or attempt to take them. That would be poaching and possibly hunting without a license, and a CO could definitely involve himself in that situation if he though you were attempting to take game. I don't believe very many CO's would stop and question you in a city just because you were carrying a firearm legally, but I believe that they legally could do that. I'm referring to the attempting to/taking of game here, and not just the sole act of legal carry of a firearm. I believe any LEO can stop and question you if you posess any firearm, if only to determine if you are legally carrying.

The local CO stopped an ATV rider *in the city* in which I live, where riding ATVs on the streets is legal, simply because the rider was not wearing a helmet as required by law--he got a citation for that infarction from the CO. The rider was my "know it all" grandson.

Steve


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## fanrwing (Jul 31, 2010)

mkriep2006 said:


> I 100% disagree with your position and I would be happy to cite a barrage of case law if you need the legal proof. *The mere presence of a otherwise lawfully possessed firearm* is not enough reason to detain or question an individual. So the CO would have 0 authority to detain or question me simply by seeing my lawfully carried side arm. This has been heavily memorialized by the Supreme Court.
> 
> It would also not be uncommon for an individual who knows their rights to say " I decline to answer any further questions , are you charging me with a crime? Or am i free to go?"
> 
> Directions to the gut pile?? Can the officer prove a specific gut pile belongs to that deer without extensive testing that the State is not going to perform? Ok , there's an oak off old road A , you'll walk in the woods their and walk 1 mile straight east , you'll see a little pine tree there , then you will turn north and walk another half mile , go around the pond on the left side , walk completely around it, and end up back where you started at he pond , then turn left and look up, you will see a porcupine on the tree the gut pile is 375 yes due west of there , lemme know if you need better directions


"Otherwise lawfully Possessed", if you are hunting with out a licence then it is not "lawfully possessed". A simple inquiry by the CO of "are you hunting" is not a violation of your rights. Of course in order to make a case absent an admission of guilt the CO would need more such as seeing you stalking game or taking aim at an animal. Now when the CO sees you carrying a weapon in the woods and asks, if you are hunting? You you can say, "No just out for a walk" or you can say, " I decline to answer any further questions , are you charging me with a crime? Or am i free to go?". In the first you sound like a regular guy out for a walk in the second you sound like a pompous ass.

As for the gut pile, the hunter claimed to have shot the deer in an area where it was legal to do so, asking where that was is not unreasonable. From what the OP wrote it seems the non APR compliant deer was being possessed in an APR area. The inquiry as to where the deer was shot seemed reasonable. 

I wonder if the OP and his buddy would have thought the CO was a jerk if when they came out they found him arresting someone who tried to steal the deer. Stealing deer out of trucks is not uncommon this time of year.


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## bucksrus (Oct 9, 2006)

Sounds like a typical power trip guy with a little unit to me who got his a $$ kicked in high school.


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

Start with debeery v, U.S., then move to Delaware V, prouse, and terry v. Ohio, when you get through those I would be happy to explain them and provide more . . These specifically define that a LEO cannot stop or interrogate , nor search or seize any information or property unless the individual is suspected of a crime.


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

fanrwing said:


> "Otherwise lawfully Possessed", if you are hunting with out a licence then it is not "lawfully possessed". A simple inquiry by the CO of "are you hunting" is not a violation of your rights. Of course in order to make a case absent an admission of guilt the CO would need more such as seeing you stalking game or taking aim at an animal. Now when the CO sees you carrying a weapon in the woods and asks, if you are hunting? You you can say, "No just out for a walk" or you can say, " I decline to answer any further questions , are you charging me with a crime? Or am i free to go?". In the first you sound like a regular guy out for a walk in the second you sound like a pompous ass.
> 
> .


Would either response be illegal ?


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

hitechman said:


> No,
> 
> The local CO stopped an ATV rider *in the city* in which I live, where riding ATVs on the streets is legal, simply because the rider was not wearing a helmet as required by law--he got a citation for that infarction from the CO. The rider was my "know it all" grandson.
> 
> Steve


So..... Your saying your grandson got a ticket from a CO for doing something that is against the law.?.?.?.? Hmmm weird........


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## fanrwing (Jul 31, 2010)

mkriep2006 said:


> Would either response be illegal ?


Neither is illegal but one makes a person look like a jerk. LEOs know your rights no need to throw it in their face.
I'm as down on bad cops as anyone but the vast majority are good guys doing a tough job. Why give them crap just because you can?


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

fanrwing said:


> Neither is illegal but one makes a person look like a jerk. LEOs know your rights no need to throw it in their face.
> I'm as down on bad cops as anyone but the vast majority are good guys doing a tough job. Why give them crap just because you can?


Many Leo's won't know your rights , and it's not the one who know or don't know them it's the ones who know and don't care that are the problem 

, again as I posted above , I believe a majority do a great job, and I always recommend working with LEO'S right up to the point where a simple encounter becomes harassment. An individual standing up for their rights should not be viewed as anything more or less then an individual standing up for their rights. Especially if those rights are being challenged or infringed upon. It should not be viewed as being a jerk, or being pompous , it is simply an individual exercising the freedoms that are guaranteed to them.

I mean , imagine if every time you left your house your got stopped every 5 miles simply because a LEO wanted to "see" if you were up to anything illegal , you would probably consider that to be ridiculous , and a violation of your rights ..?.?.?


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

mkriep2006 said:


> So..... Your saying your grandson got a ticket from a CO for doing something that is against the law.?.?.?.? Hmmm weird........


Not weird..................*city cops* never enforced that portion of the law the 3 years the ordinance has been in effect (and many in town don't use the required head or eye wear). A CO happened to be driving through town and saw him, stopped, and ticketed him in town (he had the plow on the quad, and was driving from my house to one of the neighbors to plow their drive). Since he's a CO that means he could also stop/investigate you while caring an exposed firearm in the city as well. Some portions of some cities are pretty rural. BTW, my grandson (22 at the time) paid a $100 fine, and learned a very valuable lesson (a helmet may save his life some day).

A few years back, a city cop stopped and questioned me in my own front yard because I had a rifle--bolt removed)--that had a scope I was using to look at a comet because I had no binoculars. Legal open carry on my own property, but I was still questioned (and I don't blame them 1 bit for being concerned). They left without incident, but recommended I do that from the back yard to avoid any concerns the neighbors might have.

Want to trap a pest animal, considered game, yourself (not a trapping service)................legal in most cities, but you'd better have a hunting or trapping license (or at least a permit) when the CO comes around.

BTW, my grandson got and paid a $100 fine, and learned a very valuable lesson (a helmet may save his life some day).

Steve

PS--still waiting for that "barrage of case law!"


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## canyard (Jan 10, 2010)

hitechman said:


> Not weird..................*city cops* never enforced that portion of the law the 3 years the ordinance has been in effect (and many in town don't use the required head or eye wear). A CO happened to be driving through town and saw him, stopped, and ticketed him in town (he had the plow on the quad, and was driving from my house to one of the neighbors to plow their drive). Since he's a CO that means he could also stop/investigate you while caring an exposed firearm in the city as well. Some portions of some cities are pretty rural. BTW, my grandson (22 at the time) paid a $100 fine, and learned a very valuable lesson (a helmet may save his life some day).
> 
> A few years back, a city cop stopped and questioned me in my own front yard because I had a rifle--bolt removed)--that had a scope I was using to look at a comet because I had no binoculars. Legal open carry on my own property, but I was still questioned (and I don't blame them 1 bit for being concerned). They left without incident, but recommended I do that from the back yard to avoid any concerns the neighbors might have.
> 
> ...


Copy the looking at comets with a rifle scope.lolololol.thats funny


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I gotta say, all the outhouse lawyers really crack me up.

For centuries, people said in many different languages, "Don't make no ****, won't be no ****."

Evidently, the puffed up, "I know my rights" people never heard that one. Reminds me of the dufusses that on their way to jail had to be issued a tooth brush, because, "that was their right", and they weren't going to bring one from home. They sure showed us!

There's a whole bunch of "Penny smart, pound foolish" people chiming in on this thread. Why would anyone want to waste hours of their time, days of work, embarassment, and confiscation, over a mandatory tag presentation? That's an all loss, no gain, act of stupidity.

If you don't want to be inconvenienced by the big bad government, obey the law, be respectful in your dealings with LEO's, and you too can enjoy Michigan's outdoor abundance without anxiety. In 5 minutes or less.

Since last I posted on this thread, I had my licenses checked by some over zealous USFWS employee. The nerve of that guy! He should have known that I was no criminal just by telepathy, before he ever stopped his truck. I know my rights!


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## Red Arrow (May 9, 2009)

PalookaJim said:


> Earlier this week I met an old friend after an evening hunt for a quick beer and a burger. We hunted about 10 miles from each other in north central lower Michigan. I was in an APR area. My friend was not. He was fortunate to have killed a big fat forkhorn that night. It was in the back of the truck. As we left the bar, a C.O. came roaring over from across the street... almost like he was hiding there waiting for us. Right away it was questions about where we had been. Where we hunted. Who shot the deer. Exactly where was the deer killed, and I mean EXACTLY. He takes me aside and starts to tell me that he knows I was there and he knows the deer was shot in an APR zone. He persists for 10 minutes in telling me he has proof, and making sure I was aware of the penalty for illegally taking a deer. IT'S NOT EVEN MY DEER! Then he goes over to my friend and demands to see the gut pile. RIGHT THEN! My friend tells the C.O. that if he is willing to fork over $100 to cover gas and time, He'd be happy to drive 15 miles and show him. Otherwise, he said, conversation over. The C.O. then wants _MY_ I.D. and deer license. My buddy screams at me to leave my wallet in my pocket and dials 911 right there on speakerphone. He told dispatch we were being harassed and wanted to see an officer right away before things got "out of hand" In 10 seconds it was over. The C.O. just up and left.
> I have to say, right or wrong, I've never seen a guy stand up for himself like that. It was pretty cool.


#shenanigans


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

Sounds like the C.O. has been watching North Woods Law, and those other gamr warden cop shows on tv.


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## bmoffit (Dec 3, 2007)

Gamekeeper said:


> I gotta say, all the outhouse lawyers really crack me up.
> 
> For centuries, people said in many different languages, "Don't make no ****, won't be no ****."
> 
> ...


Can I get an AMEN!!!!!


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## PalookaJim (Sep 24, 2015)

Dying to know exactly what a "puffed up I know my rights person" is. I had just enjoyed a beautiful evening afield alone in the woods, followed by a burger and a beer with a friend a haven't seen in 3 years. As it happens, he shot a deer that was legally tagged in the back of his truck. Next thing I know I'm basically being accused of being involved in a game law violation and being told we have to drive 15 miles to show this C.O. a gut pile. I wish I had the balls to tell that C.O. enough was enough. My friend did....and upon reflection, I will say I'm proud of him.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I know the world changes and I have to accept that, but I don't have to like it! Co's use to be known for their woodsmanship and general, plain sneakiness. I remember meeting the CO where we live 35 years ago. I was coming him home one rainy evening and something in the ditch in front of our cornfield caught my eye. Being young and foolish I hit the gas and spun my jacked up 4x4 sideways in the road to shine my excessive lights down in the ditch. At first I thought I was seeing a dead body but it stood up and I realized I was looking at a soggy CO. He was laughing. I stopped and talked to him and was pretty impressed with his dedication. There were deer in the field, including a nice buck bedded in the middle, and he figured if he waited long enough someone might take a shot. The rain really started to come down and I gave him a ride back to his car, almost a mile away. He didn't do his investigating on facebook or social media, he was in the field! Now I see the CO's a bit when I am ice fishing and they sit in their trucks at the access, with he heater going, probably surfing facebook. Everyone coming off the lake is legal because they got the text message about the green truck.


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## sparky18181 (Apr 17, 2012)

And the CO has to log as to who the deer went too. They don't just take them for the,selves for those of you that think that. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people who always seem to want to blame the CO or police for just doing their jobs. Like they say. You never know when you may need them but you'll thank GOD they respond when you call them, no questions asked God bless them all


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## Blueump (Aug 20, 2005)

PalookaJim said:


> Dying to know exactly what a "puffed up I know my rights person" is. I had just enjoyed a beautiful evening afield alone in the woods, followed by a burger and a beer with a friend a haven't seen in 3 years. As it happens, he shot a deer that was legally tagged in the back of his truck. Next thing I know I'm basically being accused of being involved in a game law violation and being told we have to drive 15 miles to show this C.O. a gut pile. I wish I had the balls to tell that C.O. enough was enough. My friend did....and upon reflection, I will say I'm proud of him.


Curious to what the response would have been if you had simply refused to give him gut pile info. Don't they need to be able to prove it was taken illegally before they can issue a citation or confiscate the deer? They can't do that on suspicion alone and you are never required to do their "detective work" for them?


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

hitechman said:


> Not weird..................*city cops* never enforced that portion of the law the 3 years the ordinance has been in effect
> Steve
> 
> PS--still waiting for that "barrage of case law!"


Still don't get your point, your grandson got a ticket from a CO for doing something illegal..... 

Ps. Have you read and understood the three pieces of case law I provided, if you read Deberry it defines that the mere presence of a firearm if not in the commission of a crime is not reason enough for an officer to detain or question an individual where the questioning is not consented by the individual ; 

My assumption is that you haven't taken the time to read these pieces of case law yet , so no need to further prove my point as Deberry in itself pretty much makes the case that the presence of a firearm is not cause enough for an officer to interrogate or detain an individual.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

For those of you who say they are just doing their job....well you need to consider their job has limits....some push those limits.... Some freakin nuke those limits., that is the unfortunate truth.

Once you are on the receiving end you will forever see things differently.

Under the law as posted the OP' s rights WERE violated. Period. !


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

mkriep2006 said:


> Still don't get your point, your grandson got a ticket from a CO for doing something illegal.....
> 
> Ps. Have you read and understood the three pieces of case law I provided, if you read Deberry it defines that the mere presence of a firearm if not in the commission of a crime is not reason enough for an officer to detain or question an individual where the questioning is not consented by the individual ;
> 
> My assumption is that you haven't taken the time to read these pieces of case law yet , so no need to further prove my point as Deberry in itself pretty much makes the case that the presence of a firearm is not cause enough for an officer to interrogate or detain an individual.



Point #1 – CO stopped my grandson in a city with its own police force and ticketed him for a law that had nothing to do with a game violation…..this tells me a CO has much broader law enforcement abilities than other LEOs.

Point #2 - Deberry vs US was a win for the police in the end, but it affirms the fact that merely carrying a firearm does not give rise to reasonable suspicion to stop a person. *Carrying a firearm in an area frequented by wild game that can be hunted induces a reasonable suspicion that the person is or has been hunting.*

Point #3 - Delaware v. Prouse was a case in which the Court held that police may not stop motorists without any reasonable suspicion to suspect crime or illegal activity, to check their driver's license and auto registration……but a CO observing someone with game in a vehicle, possessing a firearm in a hunting area, wearing hunting clothes has reasonable suspicion that the person was hunting, and can stop and question to see if he has a proper license, loaded firearm in the vehicle, and go from there.

Point #4 - Terry v.Ohio held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures *is not violated* when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him or her without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous”. This one validates my position on the powers of a CO. Anyone hunting can be presumed armed.

Again, I'd like to see some case law involving COs and hunting, game law natural resource law violations. How many arrests for game law violations are issued by state police, sheriffs, or city cops in this state? They always call the CO when they uncover them.

The presence of a firearm is not cause enough for an officer to interrogate or detain an individual--ya, in and of itself, but any additional circumstances, in addition to that firearm, could be probable cause...............BUT the legality of that confrontation will be determined by the judge/jury. I can't recall very many CO arrests being thrown out because of improper action by a CO, seen a conservation violation defended by any of the 3 cases you listed, or seen any of the conservation laws and powers of CO repealed or overturned by the supreme court. Three cases is not a barrage of case law in MHO.

Your understanding of the case law you've provided and the powers of a CO conflict with my understanding of it.............so lets just leave it at that and go on with our lives.

Steve


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

swampbuck said:


> For those of you who say they are just doing their job....well you need to consider their job has limits....some push those limits.... Some freakin nuke those limits., that is the unfortunate truth.
> 
> Once you are on the receiving end you will forever see things differently.
> 
> Under the law as posted the OP' s rights WERE violated. Period. !


I don't disagree with you SB. There are limits as defined by law. Some do push the limits, but I believe its a small minority--remember we only hear about the "bad cops", and very rarely about the ones who do their jobs with dignity.

I have been on the receiving end, and no matter what, I maintain my poise and dignity, and show my respect for/with the LEO. I don't volunteer information (and I don't lie either), and have politely declined all requests for a search of my vehicle when stopped for any traffic violation, and I do not answer the question "Do you have anything in the vehicle I should be aware of?" I do inform the officer I have a CPL, and weather or not I am carrying. Never been a problem for the officer.

Steve


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## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

Pretty sure its very common for COs to police recreational vehicle activity. They wrote the book. Lol


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

CHASINEYES said:


> Pretty sure its very common for COs to police recreational vehicle activity. They wrote the book. Lol


Aware of that, but unusual to see them cruising a city looking for violations. Most local police and county sheriffs aren't to "up" on the ORV laws. I've written 5 ORV road use ordinances for cities, villages, and 1 county, and many others have "copied them". I've been asked by 3 different county sheriffs to put on a seminar and "educate" their officers, but just too far away from home to do so. I did go over the laws with the local police, but since ORVs have not been a problem in my city (the predicted bloodbath has not materialized), the local police ignore some of the rules, and only give warnings for others. The chief "unofficially" told me as long as they drive under the 25 mph speed limit, he's gonna leave them alone, but warned that other agencies will ticket violations. Personally, I follow all the rules, all of the time. My grandson religiously does now also since his "ticket".

Did you notice in that trespassing/assult case by an ATV rider in Oceana county, that no charges were filed for riding without a helmet or protective eye wear? No CO was brought in to the case either.

Steve


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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

Blueump said:


> Curious to what the response would have been if you had simply refused to give him gut pile info. Don't they need to be able to prove it was taken illegally before they can issue a citation or confiscate the deer? They can't do that on suspicion alone and you are never required to do their "detective work" for them?


LE needs evidence if/when you take it to court. There's a fair number of people that just write a check "to make it go away".


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## dc3shcmanke (Aug 21, 2015)




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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Co do take the meat at times and at times gives animal to friends etc. depending on circumstances of obtaining the animal. Fact. It's not to waste meat, not every circumstance do they get the opportunity to donate every animal to shelters or food banks etc..


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## casscityalum (Aug 27, 2007)

Could this have happened(Leo tip toeing the line). Yup

Did this Happen the way it was wrote Doubt it. 

Always two sides and in this case three sides to a story and highly doubt it all went down word for word like old Jim wrote.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

beer and nuts said:


> Co do take the meat at times and at times gives animal to friends etc. depending on circumstances of obtaining the animal. Fact. It's not to waste meat, not every circumstance do they get the opportunity to donate every animal to shelters or food banks etc..



This is true. My father doesn't hunt much but has a family friend that is a state trooper and he brought him a deer once a yr for many yrs. Most were roadkill that were not damaged but I do remember 2 that were seized at a home that were illegal deer. 

I think the point in this conversation was that the person was insinuating the CO took a deer just so he could unreport it and have the deer for him or his friends/family. I highly doubt this is the case. The CO has so many oportunities to get free venison he wouldn't need to do this. No way a CO risks trouble at work over some venison. That would be like me risking the job that supports my family over taking paper and staplers at work.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Glad to see the CO hater's are still at it.

I might as well drag y'all further down the rabbit hole.

When you choose to get all belligerent and seemingly aggressive in front of a LEO, you are doing so in front of an armed stranger. Someone who doesn't know you from Adam. Their anxiety is high. Their job is to confront armed, potentially impaired, nut jobs, in the dark, on lonely roads. 

That is almost exactly the same scenario as the basis for the current #black lives matter. You have ignorant kids, taught and encouraged by the people around them to do exactly what the CO hater's are advocating.

And it brings disastrous results. Me? I am boring. I want boring. I accept responsibility for my actions. I know that I am unimportant, so it's unlikely anyone is out to get me. As my wife would say, "What makes you think you are so important that the government has decided to waste their time persecuting *You?

The CO wants boring too.
*
We hire them to protect a shared resource. A resource that can't speak for itself. Let them do their job as easily as it can be done, so they catch the walleye and perch salesmen.
So next time you are asked for your tags. Don't run. Don't panic. Don't get all puffed up looking for a fight. Just open your wallet, show them your tags. Because, ...#sportsmanslivesmatter


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Just to add a little perspective. There was a CO fired in the Crawford co. area a few years ago. Can't remember his name now. Last I knew he was working customer service at lowes now. His removal was way overdue.


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## mkriep2006 (Mar 28, 2011)

Gamekeeper said:


> Glad to see the CO hater's are still at it.
> 
> I might as well drag y'all further down the rabbit hole.
> 
> ...


I don't believe anyone here has exhibited a "CO hater" mentality as you have said , what I personally do not like is the overreach of ANY person whether it be a CO a LEO or Joe Scmho which violates the rights of an individual. The OP had a tag on the animal, was questioned , answered the question , and the CO continued to accuse and demand more evidence of innocence which NO individual is required to give..That is the issue ... 

If a CO or LEO cannot manage their anxiety/stress as they have been trained to do which could lead to disastrous results then they should not be in that job. Part of their job is managing stress, anxiety , and diffusing situations that can be diffused. There job is not to accuse people of crimes, their job is to respond to the report of crimes, respond to a crime they see in progress, and deter crime by their presence. They are not a prosecutor, they are not a judge , they are not a jury.


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## PalookaJim (Sep 24, 2015)

casscityalum said:


> Could this have happened(Leo tip toeing the line). Yup
> 
> Did this Happen the way it was wrote Doubt it.
> 
> Always two sides and in this case three sides to a story and highly doubt it all went down word for word like old Jim wrote.


"Tip toeing the line?" Hey Buddy, this C.O. started in on ME before he even knew that my friend and I knew each other. I had nothing whatsoever to do with the killing, field dressing, transportation or tagging of this deer. These facts notwithstanding, this C.O. persisted in threatening me with jail and fines and seizures.... now get this once and for all....


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

So, the general tone of, Co's are bad. They overstep their authority. They persecute the innocent. They steal our game. They don't know what they are doing. They are A-holes? They stepped on my rights! They are out to get me!

A casual reader is supposed to feel the love?

Get real.

This whole thread is about promoting an antagonistic attitude toward wildlife LEO's.

Same as #blacklives matter.


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## randy1 (Mar 18, 2006)

If the CO is spending his time sitting in front of bars rather than with his boots on the ground in the woods he's probably in trouble for not catching violators. He was probably desparate and it came out in his actions.


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## bobrms50 (Jan 29, 2012)

its all about money,american GREED.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

CHASINEYES said:


> He was an arrogant S.O.B...that's the same guy I was thinking when swampy mentioned a rogue CO. Lol I'll give you an L.


A friend of mine had an encounter with that CO a few years ago. He was on state land bordering a large private tract and got a trespassing ticket. He wan't able to prove he was on state land until after he paid the fine. The CO claimed the state land was a few hundred yards away.

I found this internal investigation from 2009.

http://www.crawfordcountyavalanche.com/articles/2009/03/20/news/doc49c3d5f93741a875698227.txt


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Lutz had a nasty reputation.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

petronius said:


> I would be lodging a complaint against that CO. He had no right treating either of you like that. His behavior was horrendous. Lying and bullying has no place in law enforcement.



I suggest watching some actual police shows involving interrogations (say, something like The First 48) if you really believe that.

Law enforcement REGULARLY lies to suspects and regularly tries to intimidate them. If lying and bullying has no place in law enforcement - then a huge percentage of our law enforcement actions have no place.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

pescadero said:


> I suggest watching some actual police shows involving interrogations (say, something like The First 48) if you really believe that.
> 
> Law enforcement REGULARLY lies to suspects and regularly tries to intimidate them. If lying and bullying has no place in law enforcement - then a huge percentage of our law enforcement actions have no place.


Courts have upheld that an LEO can lie, without recourse, when questioning someone, but if one lies to an LEO they are guilty of impeding or interfering with an investigation.

Steve


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

hitechman said:


> Courts have upheld that an LEO can lie, without recourse, when questioning someone, but if one lies to an LEO they are guilty of impeding or interfering with an investigation.
> 
> Steve


 I still reserve the right to be a smart ass at anytime!


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

plugger said:


> I still reserve the right to be a smart ass at anytime!


Smart ass!


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I wonder about our new crop of CO'S. I have always been law abiding and friendly with the local CO'S but I don't appreciate the line of questioning and the suspicions and accusations. I ice a very popular lake a lot and do pretty well. I keep 8 bluegills if their large or 10 if their medium to large. There are people who do take over limits and they should be fairly easy to catch. The CO's park at the ramp, they don't wat to walk the 3/4 of a mile to where we fish, and think their going to catch guys over limit? When the green truck pulls up to the ramp the text messages hit the lake. The guys who take over limits don't take over their limits and if they fished the morning they don't take any fish in. I come into the ramp and they make me dump out my 8 bluegills and search my shanty or sled. They know it's not me because they ask if I saw so and so out there , no my glasses were fogged up. You fish a lot you must have a lot of fish in your freezer? no If I wanted fish in my freezer I wouldn't quit at 8 bluegills. Hey did you do good deer hunting? no, to tell you the truth Barney I got cold and went home. This goes on several times a year for the last few years.


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## bmoffit (Dec 3, 2007)

I gotta say. If I were a CO and dealt with someone who was a relentless wiseass. I'd be giving them a little extra attention myself


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## hartman756 (Nov 21, 2008)

When a leo starts in on a fishing expedition with me just ask him if he has a fishing license. Puts an end to it right there :yikes:


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

hartman756 said:


> When a leo starts in on a fishing expedition with me just ask him if he has a fishing license. Puts an end to it right there :yikes:


That's good. I'll have to remember that line.


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## hartman756 (Nov 21, 2008)

petronius said:


> That's good. I'll have to remember that line.


just don't tell them you got it from me !!! :lol:


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

casscityalum said:


> Ok thanks. I can not play it hypothetical as I have never been on or seen that side of an Leo in my 29 years on this planet in person. All my interactions have been pleasant or direct but never over bearing.
> 
> That coupled with the fact polukajoe got banned and days later Jim arrived on forum has me biased as well lol.


Every protection afforded us by US Constitution is hypothetical. Isn't it a good thing they were able to understand that the time to offer protection is before it becomes necessary, not after.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Hardwoods89 said:


> This thread has gotten out of hand. Maybe the OP is telling the absolute truth, maybe not, there's no way to know for sure. Bottom line is that every person on the green side of the grass has had weak moments at their job, in their personal life, etc. That doesn't make them necessarily bad at what they do. I will even take it a step further to say that there are COs that are not fit for their profession; the same can be said for doctors, mechanics, butchers, etc. That is no reason to paint those occupations with a negatively broad stroked brush. My biggest issue is a lot of the people posting with anti-CO sentiment will go on another thread and whine about the rotten no-good overzealous baiters, trespassers, game camera stealers and poachers and want a CO to be around every tree to catch these guys. If you want these folks protecting our natural resources from law-breakers they are bound to end up questioning many of the innocent, it's part of the job. If this CO overstepped his bounds then shame on him, but there's no need to throw dirt on the entire profession. You can't have your cake and eat it too!


Everyone understands the bad apple aspect. I haven't seen a broad brush applied, unless you count those who support unconditionally.

Whatever the point of the thread was, the discussion turned to the protections and responsibility demanded of citizen/government. A perfect example isn't required to discuss rights and responsibilities. Made up or 100% true, doesn't matter.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

I must admit that I'm amazed, when reading the monthly CO reports, just how many confessions they obtain through interrogation. I have to believe that what they say and do might make the suspects "believe" they know more than they do.


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## motdean (Oct 23, 2011)

For all of you personal rights activists, I would highly encourage you to spend some time with a law enforcement agent while he is on duty.

It will give you some perspective as to the stuff that they have to deal with. For you, it will only be one day/night, but they put up with that day in and day out.

I have had the opportunity to do so, and I can tell you that after one night of that, your perspective will change....or at least it should.

They get disrespected by just about everybody...young, not so young, and all walks of life.

Sure they chose the profession, but it seems like for some, they only want to show their support for the badge once that _*thin blue line*_ is crossed and there is a funeral to deal with.


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## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

Had a c.o. in Allegan county early 80,s while ice fishing ,checked license asked how many gills I had in a bucket next to me,23 was the answer and I knew it,his response was how do I know that? Just told ya I said. He dumped my bucket kicked them around while counting 23. He then proceeded to walk away,I said that ain't where you found those fish,he said I could put em back in bucket, and only take 2 more. I asked for his supervisors name. He put them back in bucket told me to watch myself!


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## Up_North_Hunter (Dec 3, 2013)

They were driving up to peoples deer blinds at prime time on opening day to check for hunter orange. I'd be pissed


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## Spartan88 (Nov 14, 2008)

motdean said:


> For all of you personal rights activists, I would highly encourage you to spend some time with a law enforcement agent while he is on duty.
> 
> It will give you some perspective as to the stuff that they have to deal with. For you, it will only be one day/night, but they put up with that day in and day out.
> 
> ...


I was an MP in the Army, no way I'd do a CO's job, ever...


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## crossneyes (Sep 26, 2005)

The c.o.i had issues with in Allegan is the only one I have ever had a problemwith. I have dealt with many other's that were very respectful. They have a sh###y job without a doubt,but they don't have to come off blaring authority unless it's called for.


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