# Ever Wonder Why Sharp Tailed Grouse



## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Ever wondered why sharp tailed grouse are not in southern and central Michigan? In the 50's n 60's wild turkeys were reintroduced in Michigan. We lost pheasants and pheasant hunting mid 70's and at one time close to a million hunters hunted pheasants in Michigan. 

Recently a lot of money, and data was reviewed showing adequate habitat for reintroducing sharp tailed grouse below the bridge. Yet the program or the reintroduction was scrapped after not only spending the research but also showing the habitat was available.

Now what is ironic is that this is a native species that once thrived here. Yet why are we not following past practices that we have in other native species?

I would rather have pheasant for table fare but would not only enjoy a mixed bag but look forward to have ample wild birds in Central and Southern Michigan to train and hunt rather than go for a walk. It would also encourage hunter retention with more birds or more bird species available. 

Would enjoy other comments or opinions on this. I strongly feel DNR short sighted us and our natural resources. 

It seems we have seen the DNR spend millions on non native species being introduced and released than reintroducing native species to our state, as far as wing shooting.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

https://michigansharptails.wordpress.com/author/michigansharptails/

Is this not happening?


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

ab5228 said:


> https://michigansharptails.wordpress.com/author/michigansharptails/
> 
> Is this not happening?


 It has not been done and last I heard it was cancelled or shot down per a phone call. No written confirmation but from a reliable source.

Supposedly by the assistant director Shannon Hanna. If you have any information contradicting this, it would be welcome news.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I think the plans of the DNR may have been subsumed by the MPHI.

The dollar figures look similar, so that would be my guess.

I don’t have Marty’s email, so I don’t have anyway to check.

I should also add, that the money spent for Sharptailed programs, divided by 250 people who went up to the UP to shoot some, could never survive in the face of Detroit metropolitan area shot gun owners wanting to shoot put and take pheasants.

I warned of the cannibalizing affect of the MPHI last year, so if the sharp tail program has been canceled or delayed, it comes as no surprise.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

Wow, put and take farm livestock instead of attempting to restore a species that’s native to this continent, sweet...


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

It surprises me that it was not done 40+ years ago. It is well overdue.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

ab5228 said:


> Wow, put and take farm livestock instead of attempting to restore a species that’s native to this continent, sweet...


Capitalism instead of Conservation? Or capitalism instead of our natural resources?


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

Let’s not get confused, capitalism isn’t the problem here.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

We hunted sharp tails near the mason tract all through the 70s until the closure of the season in the 80s.

The habitat changed. Aged them out.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

Sharpies, Quail, pheasants for days. Maybe I was born in the wrong era.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

ab5228 said:


> Let’s not get confused, capitalism isn’t the problem here.


It is if they are more interested in pheasant pay and play or stamp. Which funds private bird production rather than reintroduce a native bird species in the lower. It appears the funding is leaning in that direction rather than protecting, advocating, a native natural resource. It sure looks like capitalism to me, rather than conservation.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Hunters Edge said:


> It is if they are more interested in pheasant pay and play or stamp. Which funds private bird production rather than reintroduce a native bird species in the lower. It appears the funding is leaning in that direction rather than protecting, advocating, a native natural resource. It sure looks like capitalism to me, rather than conservation.


Keep talking like that, and We’ll be making an effort to re-introduce prairie chickens, which haven’t been seen in Michigan since the 1920s.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

Hunters Edge said:


> It is if they are more interested in pheasant pay and play or stamp. Which funds private bird production rather than reintroduce a native bird species in the lower. It appears the funding is leaning in that direction rather than protecting, advocating, a native natural resource. It sure looks like capitalism to me, rather than conservation.


I get what you are saying.. I would just say sending the paying public to the private game farm would be Capitalism. 

Not having the tax paying public pay for the non paying public to have privately raised birds to shoot publicly. 

I may have got carried away there but I’m sure you understand what I’m saying.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

ab5228 said:


> I get what you are saying.. I would just say sending the paying public to the private game farm would be Capitalism.
> 
> Not having the tax paying public pay for the non paying public to have privately raised birds to shoot publicly.
> 
> I may have got carried away there but I’m sure you understand what I’m saying.


It’s just a battle for resources.

Government expands to dissipate all resources that it is given.

That is the nature of governance.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

Have to spend that money to make it seem like we need it next time.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Arauco is probably doing more for Sharptailed grouse in Michigan than any other entity in its history.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Look we have a native species that could be a plus to encourage wing shooting in Michigan. Specifically in central and southern Michigan and not only has it been ignored but even with data showing suitable habitat the transplanting or reintroducing is being squashed. This restocking or reintroducing should have been done decades ago IMO.

We are not talking about wolves or a predator but a native game bird that could and would create additional wing shooting.


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

Reintroduce them to what? I don’t see much quality sharptail habitat around in my opinion. What we have is private property that it’s hard to manage. The pheasant is more apt to broken areas of habitat and thicker tangle areas and we struggle to build there population


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## FNC (Jun 5, 2007)

Hunters Edge said:


> Ever wondered why sharp tailed grouse are not in southern and central Michigan? In the 50's n 60's wild turkeys were reintroduced in Michigan. We lost pheasants and pheasant hunting mid 70's and at one time close to a million hunters hunted pheasants in Michigan.
> 
> Recently a lot of money, and data was reviewed showing adequate habitat for reintroducing sharp tailed grouse below the bridge. Yet the program or the reintroduction was scrapped after not only spending the research but also showing the habitat was available.
> 
> ...


Agree 100%. Need to include bobwhite quail in the discussion as well (yet another native ground nesting bird that is scarce/gone from the landscape). Habitat for ground nesting game birds (native or otherwise) helps many other game & non-game wildlife species. Who could possibly be opposed to this?

Frank


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

FNC said:


> Agree 100%. Need to include bobwhite quail in the discussion as well, Who could possibly be opposed to this?
> 
> Frank


Every land owner that tries to scratch out a living from his dirt.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

I know the Sharptail were in the lower Black River valley in St. Clair County about 40 years ago. These were originally released from the Ford Estate in the 20's for breeding. We use to be able to hunt the area before urban development put a stop to it. They would be in woods that were a lot more open than a Partridge woods. They are most likely still there but being the land was sold and divided, finding them would be impossible. There are miles of state land river valley upstream from there so there probable are pockets of them left. They would flush 100 yards before you could close in on them. Defiantly different habitat then Partridge. 20 years ago we had a lot of Quail at my place but a rare sleet storm in the spring wiped them out. Hopefully they will come back if pockets survived. The biggest killer was the Quail was Owls. I have personally seen 10 dead Quail under a tree with only their brain eaten out. I miss not hearing them all summer long during daylight hours. You got so use to it you would not pay attention to them.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Hunters Edge said:


> It is if they are more interested in pheasant pay and play or stamp. Which funds private bird production rather than reintroduce a native bird species in the lower. It appears the funding is leaning in that direction rather than protecting, advocating, a native natural resource. It sure looks like capitalism to me, rather than conservation.


I think the DNR's goal is to provide recreational opportunities for the residents of the state. 

It seems to me that they have done a fair amount of habitat improvement to return state properties to a more open savanna like (for the lack of a better word) status. This type of work isn't cheap by the way. I hope they do reintroduce sharpies in the LP. Even in the southern part where put and take phes. were once common.



Gamekeeper said:


> It’s just a battle for resources.
> 
> Government expands to dissipate all resources that it is given.
> 
> That is the nature of governance.


There is a separate forum for this type of "stuff".


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Nostromo said:


> I think the DNR's goal is to provide recreational opportunities for the residents of the state.
> 
> It seems to me that they have done a fair amount of habitat improvement to return state properties to a more open savanna like (for the lack of a better word) status. This type of work isn't cheap by the way. I hope they do reintroduce sharpies in the LP. Even in the southern part where put and take phes. were once common.
> 
> ...


They have a budget. It’s size is determined by the legislature. They make an annual plan for how to spend it. They don’t leave any on the table. And with respect to this thread, there are competing forces for the same pie, so somebody slice is going to be smaller.

If you’re going to be dependent on DNR provided hunting opportunities, you might as well understand how the money works, because that IS your opportunity.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Gamekeeper said:


> Every land owner that tries to scratch out a living from his dirt.


Land taxation is not helping either.The land has to cover the costs and provide a living


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Gamekeeper said:


> They have a budget. It’s size is determined by the legislature. They make an annual plan for how to spend it. They don’t leave any on the table. And with respect to this thread, there are competing forces for the same pie, so somebody slice is going to be smaller.
> 
> If you’re going to be dependent on DNR provided hunting opportunities, you might as well understand how the money works, because that IS your opportunity.


So, this is what you should have said in the first place.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Nostromo said:


> So, this is what you should have said in the first place.


So, the best chance for sharp tail in the Pine barons region of the lower peninsula, is promoting the harvest of jackpine for Arauco.
It’s win/win.
Same for the ruffed grouse.
Faster cutting rotation gets more habitat as a by product.
Evidence goes all the way back to the 1880’s on the effect of the large scale cutting.

The sharptail sudsidy for the UP program will get turned into pen raised birds for downstate hunters.

It is what it is.
Until the economy slows, and then the PNT program will die back again as well.

But you’ll see a steady level of ruffed grouse in the upper central LP for the next 40 years.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

birdhntr said:


> Land taxation is not helping either.The land has to cover the costs and provide a living


Michigan's farmland taxes as part of overall production and real estate values are high.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Gamekeeper said:


> So, the best chance for sharp tail in the Pine barons region of the lower peninsula, is promoting the harvest of jackpine for Arauco.
> It’s win/win.
> Same for the ruffed grouse.
> Faster cutting rotation gets more habitat as a by product.
> Evidence goes all the way back to the 1880’s on the effect of the large scale cutting.


There is a heck of a lot of jackpines around the northern lower and upper peninsula's. I guess it's as much a cash crop for paper as habitat for warblers. Which one did you want to take on first? lol


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

So in the last 40 years they did not spend the money to reintroduce sharp tailed grouse in LP. Then they pay for research providing data that adequate habitat exist to be successful and then they do not stay the course but abandon the reintroduction. It just doesn't make sense with hunters numbers plummeting. 

It would seem if the DNR was looking for recreational opportunities the reintroduction of sharp tailed grouse in the LP would have happened before wolves being protected in the UP. Then again the money generated to the MIDNR from USFW for wolves may have been a contributing factor. Just as the research for sharp tailed grouse but not the actual reintroduction?


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Hunters Edge said:


> So in the last 40 years they did not spend the money to reintroduce sharp tailed grouse in LP. Then they pay for research providing data that adequate habitat exist to be successful and then they do not stay the course but abandon the reintroduction. It just doesn't make sense with hunters numbers plummeting.
> 
> It would seem if the DNR was looking for recreational opportunities the reintroduction of sharp tailed grouse in the LP would have happened before wolves being protected in the UP. Then again the money generated to the MIDNR from USFW for wolves may have been a contributing factor. Just as the research for sharp tailed grouse but not the actual reintroduction?


Come on now. They have to do studies to ensure that they are not wasting our money.:tsk:

But as you said. Hunter numbers and it appears satisfaction have dropped. They would see this as a primary goal and if dropping some Phes. looks like a quicker fix than phes get dropped. The sharpie program isn't likely to be tossed out.

But the wolves is a completely different situation. Management was implemented and then halted by the courts. A big time and money suck for the state.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

I look at it not for me but generations to come. I was lucky, no those in Michigan who have used or will use state land are lucky. Lucky that others before us, thought and took actions not just for our recreation but our natural resources. I would like to insure we continue to enhance it for future generations and our natural resources. 

By not reintroducing sharp tailed grouse we are falling behind these goals. We are also limiting recreational opportunities and economic growth and needed funds for conservation (hunting license).


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

I would also point out that pheasants and sharp tailed grouse coexist in areas out west. Many times winter or spring conditions have caused a few states to release pheasants, not so with sharp tailed grouse. Keep this in mind when thinking we should not reintroduce sharp tailed grouse in LP.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

It is not entirely the DNRS fault.They are up against the same struggles as wildlife which is space,habitat,and the almighty dollar.Oh and then there is humans!


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Hunters Edge said:


> I look at it not for me but generations to come. I was lucky, no those in Michigan who have used or will use state land are lucky. Lucky that others before us, thought and took actions not just for our recreation but our natural resources. I would like to insure we continue to enhance it for future generations and our natural resources.
> 
> By not reintroducing sharp tailed grouse we are falling behind these goals. We are also limiting recreational opportunities and economic growth and needed funds for conservation (hunting license).


You do understand, that the reason that we have such huge swaths of state land, is because of the economic failure of the prior owners? Right?

The point is that our state having so much public land, was not intentional.

Guiding it into the future is a relatively recent concept.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Gamekeeper said:


> You do understand, that the reason that we have such huge swaths of state land, is because of the economic failure of the prior owners? Right?
> 
> The point is that our state having so much public land, was not intentional.
> 
> Guiding it into the future is a relatively recent concept.


Didn't you mention the Mason Tract earlier? lol

A lot of our forest came from private hands. Lumber Barron's left destruction in their wake and of course forest fires. The depression also played a part. But many were sold or gifted to the state going back to the 1940's. Far seeing state employees are the ones to thank for recognizing the recreational opportunities these lands represented. We're very lucky as Hunters Edge points out.


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## tdduckman (Jan 17, 2001)

I have hunted sharptails in ND, and Saskatchewan, and they require pretty big habitat of short grass and tall grass prairie, they also utilize non fall tilled crop fields. 

There is not much of that type of habitat in all of Michigan. 

Pheasants can hang on in a little more marginal cover, but even then the amount of pheasants in Michigan is pretty small. 


TD


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

I don’t know all the ins and outs but reintroduction of sharptails isn’t as easy as capturing some birds and releasing them where you want. There way of reproduction of using leks I don’t think can reproduced by man. There is a reason they choose areas and then use them for generations. And if they choose non public land then what? Just being a realist thinking that it’s not as easy to re establish a population as say turkey of pheasant


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

RCA DOGS said:


> I don’t know all the ins and outs but reintroduction of sharptails isn’t as easy as capturing some birds and releasing them where you want. There way of reproduction of using leks I don’t think can reproduced by man. There is a reason they choose areas and then use them for generations. And if they choose non public land then what? Just being a realist thinking that it’s not as easy to re establish a population as say turkey of pheasant


Thus the reason for spending thousands on research. Which showed that indeed it was suitable habitat available for a successful reintroduction of sharp tailed grouse.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

FNC said:


> Agree 100%. Need to include bobwhite quail in the discussion as well (yet another native ground nesting bird that is scarce/gone from the landscape). Habitat for ground nesting game birds (native or otherwise) helps many other game & non-game wildlife species. Who could possibly be opposed to this?
> 
> Frank


Here is a program that has been going on around dundee. The article is from 2016. I believe I watched a Michigan outdoors episode last year that showed the program in its 3rd year. They had some DNR and MSU folks involved in the story as well from what I remenber. FCA was paying for it. 


https://blog.fcanorthamerica.com/20...ort-10-years-ago-can-now-bring-back-bobwhite/


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## FNC (Jun 5, 2007)

Very cc


DirtySteve said:


> Here is a program that has been going on around dundee. The article is from 2016. I believe I watched a Michigan outdoors episode last year that showed the program in its 3rd year. They had some DNR and MSU folks involved in the story as well from what I remenber. FCA was paying for it.
> 
> 
> https://blog.fcanorthamerica.com/20...ort-10-years-ago-can-now-bring-back-bobwhite/


Very cool, thank-you for sharing. When I first started hunting in late-60's, early 70's there were good numbers of quail in Monroe and Washtenaw Counties. Many, many hedgerows that broke up fields and the quail thrived. I realize we are on the northern-most part of the bobwhite range but with land acquisition and management, it's possible for quail (and other ground nesting birds) to re-populate to some extent.


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

Waste of time and money until egg predator numbers are a lot lower .Also we had them by our cabin in the UP and they were not smart birds .They wold flop around at the top of trees for buds and seemed unafraid when you walked under them .


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## JH Bird Dog (Dec 8, 2017)

Wisconsin has done something similar to this recently, think I originally heard of this on the Project Upland podcast. Sounds like they are still monitoring to see how things will go but something interesting to keep an eye on. 

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/cnnf/landmanagement/resourcemanagement/?cid=FSEPRD577749

I would love to have sharptails in the LP. I have never hunted them before but am thinking of taking the pup to the EUP and giving it a shot this year. Even if they end up on private lands I don't think its a bad thing to have a native species back on the landscape. My understanding is that the HAP lands in the EUP were targeted specifically for access to Sharptail hunting, so possiblysomething similar could happen in the LP. I have never hunted HAP lands so I am not sure how well that that project works, but if the funding could work out I would support that program.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

JH Bird Dog said:


> Wisconsin has done something similar to this recently, think I originally heard of this on the Project Upland podcast. Sounds like they are still monitoring to see how things will go but something interesting to keep an eye on.
> 
> https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/cnnf/landmanagement/resourcemanagement/?cid=FSEPRD577749
> 
> I would love to have sharptails in the LP. I have never hunted them before but am thinking of taking the pup to the EUP and giving it a shot this year. Even if they end up on private lands I don't think its a bad thing to have a native species back on the landscape. My understanding is that the HAP lands in the EUP were targeted specifically for access to Sharptail hunting, so possiblysomething similar could happen in the LP. I have never hunted HAP lands so I am not sure how well that that project works, but if the funding could work out I would support that program.


Western north half of North Dakota is where its at.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

There are 6 subspecies of Sharpie.
It's entirely possible a different varietal could do better here.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Hunters Edge said:


> Thus the reason for spending thousands on research. Which showed that indeed it was suitable habitat available for a successful reintroduction of sharp tailed grouse.


I would like to see this research, can you provide a source? I wasn't aware that it ever got off the ground, thought ti was mostly talk yet. 
I heard there was a big ask, i.e. a large budget submitted for the project and that's why it was rejected. The plan was to capture hens with broods and relocate them to northern L.P. near Grayling. It was a likely location due to the occasional small fire that pop up from Reserve training runs.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

2ESRGR8 said:


> I would like to see this research, can you provide a source? I wasn't aware that it ever got off the ground, thought ti was mostly talk yet.
> I heard there was a big ask, i.e. a large budget submitted for the project and that's why it was rejected. The plan was to capture hens with broods and relocate them to northern L.P. near Grayling. It was a likely location due to the occasional small fire that pop up from Reserve training runs.


Source was a reliable source at MIDNR and unfortunately I will not put him/her under the bus. I would suggest contacting MI DNR and ask your question or questions to the source.

Just ask yourself how much did it cost for wild turkeys and also wolves in the UP? Or what loss of not only a renewable native resource but the added hunter retention and the money loss on license revenue?

I also hope you realize or keep in mind it would have been considerably cheaper to reintroduce and research 40+ years ago. I also want to interject that if there was ample birds for wing shooting we may have not lost the majority of close to a million pheasant hunters? Not saying we would not have lost hunters but it may not have been a such steep loss or drop?


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## tdduckman (Jan 17, 2001)

Thirty pointer said:


> Waste of time and money until egg predator numbers are a lot lower .Also we had them by our cabin in the UP and they were not smart birds .They wold flop around at the top of trees for buds and seemed unafraid when you walked under them .



Having hunted Sharp tails for decades, I highly doubt the birds you saw eating buds on a tree allowing you to walk under them, were sharp tails. 

Ruffed grouse maybe 
Spruce Grouse maybe 

Sharpies - doubtful


TD


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Hunters Edge said:


> I also want to interject that if there was ample birds for wing shooting we may have not lost the majority of close to a million pheasant hunters? Not saying we would not have lost hunters but it may not have been a such steep loss or drop?


That's old man nonsense.
Just ask a millennial sometime about why they don't hunt.
Nolan Bushnell created an alternative that turned out to be more appealing to youth.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

I don't think the ST habitat research was ever completed. They talked about it, I just don't think any boots ever hit the ground. MDNR knows what works in the U.P., it would only take someone knowing what that is to say "yep this will work" down here in the lower. But it is government they sometimes have to regulate themselves into inefficiency.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Gamekeeper said:


> That's old man nonsense.
> Just ask a millennial sometime about why they don't hunt.
> Nolan Bushnell created an alternative that turned out to be more appealing to youth.


Keep dreaming hunter numbers coincide with game numbers and bag limits. This includes deer, waterfowl, pheasants etc.. A better way to explain it, is if you have no birds, you have no bird hunters.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

2ESRGR8 said:


> I don't think the ST habitat research was ever completed. They talked about it, I just don't think any boots ever hit the ground. MDNR knows what works in the U.P., it would only take someone knowing what that is to say "yep this will work" down here in the lower. But it is government they sometimes have to regulate themselves into inefficiency.


I made it plain it is not what I thought but what I heard or was spoken to me. All I can ask is call the MIDNR to find out if the research data was complete. What I was told, is that it was.

Could I have been misquoted or heard incorrectly, it is possible. Nothing stopping anyone from talking to the horses mouth for clarification, pick up the phone


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

2ESRGR8 said:


> I don't think the ST habitat research was ever completed. They talked about it, I just don't think any boots ever hit the ground. MDNR knows what works in the U.P., it would only take someone knowing what that is to say "yep this will work" down here in the lower. But it is government they sometimes have to regulate themselves into inefficiency.


 Sharptails are called "Fire birds" for a reason.
They need habitat disturbance resulting in a mixed grassland/early succession matrix. They move on or die out as habitat matures.
Large scale habitat work is expensive.
It's hard to justify it in a vacuum.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

There is medicine available for anyone that thinks MI is somehow EVER going to have 1 million people EVER buying a tag for anything ever again.

World wide, hunting is declining precipitously.

Youth choose to spend their time doing something else.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

This also substantiates the call or the person I talked to that the research was done. Otherwise they would not have been planning a release. The only issue from what I was told was financially and the assistant directoraxing the project.

https://michigansharptails.wordpress.com/author/michigansharptails/


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Gamekeeper said:


> There is medicine available for anyone that thinks MI is somehow EVER going to have 1 million people EVER buying a tag for anything ever again.
> 
> World wide, hunting is declining precipitously.
> 
> Youth choose to spend their time doing something else.


I disagee if we had the birds we would have the hunters and the revenue from hunting licenses sold. Just look at the nonresident grouse, woodcock hunter's and both populations are down not up. If the bird population ever offered world class wing shooting we would have resident and nonresident increased license sales.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Gamekeeper said:


> There is medicine available for anyone that thinks MI is somehow EVER going to have 1 million people EVER buying a tag for anything ever again.
> 
> World wide, hunting is declining precipitously.
> 
> Youth choose to spend their time doing something else.


The youth tell me it is to much effort


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

birdhntr said:


> The youth tell me it is to much effort


LOL, it may have something to do with lack of birds? Or the effort and no bird, no shots and no adrenaline rush for the work because it was not fun. Many old timers remember the less effort or the abundance of game which resulted in more hunters and more opportunities.

Let me ask all those Michiganders if they go out of state bird hunting in states like Nebraska, Kansas, South Dakota, North Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota etc., for sight seeing or the opportunity they have to offer for wing shooting, or dog work? Hope we have honest hunters and comments about this.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

tdduckman said:


> Having hunted Sharp tails for decades, I highly doubt the birds you saw eating buds on a tree allowing you to walk under them, were sharp tails.
> 
> Ruffed grouse maybe
> Spruce Grouse maybe
> ...


I think he was talking Bobwhhhhites


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Hunters Edge said:


> LOL, it may have something to do with lack of birds? Or the effort and no bird, no shots and no adrenaline rush for the work because it was not fun. Many old timers remember the less effort or the abundance of game which resulted in more hunters and more opportunities.
> 
> Let me ask all those Michiganders if they go out of state bird hunting in states like Nebraska, Kansas, South Dakota, North Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota etc., for sight seeing or the opportunity they have to offer for wing shooting, or dog work? Hope we have honest hunters and comments about this.


I go to those states (and some foreign countries) every year to wingshoot.
They have a fraction of the population that MI has.

It's not uncommon for a jaunt to be far more walking/sightseeing, than shooting.
And the more people, the more that is true.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

Ok boomers ..... as a not so young millennial, I think the decline in hunter numbers among youth have to do with a lot of things. I believe a huge factor is the options for entertainment these days.

How many TV channels did you have growing up? How many games, football, basketball, baseball, golf, hockey, were available to watch a week? What about sports seasons? How many of you played non-school club sports in high school? If a kid plays a couple sports nowadays it’s an all year thing. What about cell phones? How many of you are glad there wasn’t Social media records of your behavior in high school college?
Not every teen-twenty-thirty something is a slug that has no ambition. There is a lot of options for entertainment these days and with access issues that weren’t as prominent when you were growing up it makes it hard to get into hunting. Especially if didn’t grow up doing it. Unless you have a friend or family member take you, you’re probably doing something else. Rant over, time to go back to work, how bout those Sharptails?

Side note, just ran the dogs, no woodcock yet, Ionia county.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

The biggest issue is if you have a million hunters you also have a million mentors. Unfortunately as hunter numbers decline do to lack of game and opportunities so do the number of mentors. Also not every hunter will mentor so as less hunters, less hunting mentors which radically reduces involvement. I would wager those going out of state that did not encounter birds would not go. For example Iowa is no having a limited success in pheasant population I would think nonresident license shall increase as well, they usually go hand in hand.

In any case adding or reintroducing sharp tailed grouse through out the LP is a right thing to do. Both in nature and in hunting opportunities and hopefully an increase in license sales.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

ab5228 said:


> Ok boomers ..... as a not so young millennial, I think the decline in hunter numbers among youth have to do with a lot of things. I believe a huge factor is the options for entertainment these days.
> 
> How many TV channels did you have growing up? How many games, football, basketball, baseball, golf, hockey, were available to watch a week? What about sports seasons? How many of you played non-school club sports in high school? If a kid plays a couple sports nowadays it’s an all year thing. What about cell phones? How many of you are glad there wasn’t Social media records of your behavior in high school college?
> Not every teen-twenty-thirty something is a slug that has no ambition. There is a lot of options for entertainment these days and with access issues that weren’t as prominent when you were growing up it makes it hard to get into hunting. Especially if didn’t grow up doing it. Unless you have a friend or family member take you, you’re probably doing something else. Rant over, time to go back to work, how bout those Sharptails?
> ...


The largest drop of pheasant hunters in Michigan coincides with the drop of pheasant population. Also noteworthy is lack of birds per the effort involved also may have contributed to the decline of pheasant hunters than and now.



birdhntr said:


> The youth tell me it is to much effort


The meaning to hunt is to pursue game, so if there is no game there is no hunt. Something to think about.

Not saying sharp tailed grouse will have the same draw as pheasants or to substitute one for another. I say encourage both in the LP to encourage hunter retention along with a noteworthy cause to our natural resources.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

Here is some information from the Audubon Society about sharptail grouse.

https://www.audubon.org/field-guide/bird/sharp-tailed-grouse

I saw my first sharptails this past fall in NW Minnesota.  I was with my son-in-law on a prairie chicken hunt. The habitat in that area is very different than found in northern lower Michigan but is not unlike Chippewa County in the eastern UP. 

Lower Michigan might be too warm for sharptail grouse. The above link has an interactive map that allows the habitat range to be viewed with different climate change scenarios.


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

Even if sharptails were to be reintroduced, and they didnt all die within a couple years,(both of which are very slim odds) it would take a significant amount of time before a season would be opened. Think like 50 years or so, IF they are doing well.

I was listening to a podcast on sharptail reintroduction to a valley in western montana and the guy who was leading the project said that even if the project was very successful he anticipated there would never be a hunting season in his lifetime, probably ever. The same goes with the ruffed grouse reintroduction into missouri that is taking place right now. The leaders of the project have flat out said that it is not very likely these birds will ever be hunted again.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

Hunters Edge said:


> The largest drop of pheasant hunters in Michigan coincides with the drop of pheasant population. Also noteworthy is lack of birds per the effort involved also may have contributed to the decline of pheasant hunters than and now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t disagree that pheasant numbers are a factor. I think that is a definite factor for the casual person that might go out a few times a year. I also think it could be a factor in bringing people out. Guys don’t want to bring a young person or a newby out if they don’t know if they’ll see birds or not. 

However, there a lot of squirrels out there. Don’t seem to run in to many squirrel hunters. Plenty of rabbits available in my areas. Personally I haven’t shot a rabbit in a couple years. I haven’t shot a squirrel in over a decade.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

I see the term "casual hunters" being used in this thread. Thinking deeply about it, I would bet that the majority of hunters are casual hunters. 

For example, I hunted the pheasant opener in NW Iowa this year. The public land we started on had more birds and more hunters than I have ever seen. 

After the first 2 hours of the season, the number of other hunters that we saw dropped exponentially.

Also, I was there with 10 other bird hunters. Only 4 of us own bird dogs.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Once they created the base license, the stage was set for “pay as you go” hunting for every species in Michigan.

Hunters are being nickeled and dimed right out of the game.

Just wait till that ridiculous pheasant stamp shows up
Add on another $25.00 to shoot birds minutes out of a pen.
The overall budget’s going to dry up, and all that’s going to be left in the small game department are the “put in take birds”.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

John Singer said:


> I see the term "casual hunters" being used in this thread. Thinking deeply about it, I would bet that the majority of hunters are casual hunters.
> 
> For example, I hunted the pheasant opener in NW Iowa this year. The public land we started on had more birds and more hunters than I have ever seen.
> 
> ...


Yep but they all contributed freely to buy a license some even nonresident.

Again

DICTIONARY
Search for a word













hunt·ing
/ˈhən(t)iNG/
Learn to pronounce
_noun_

1.
the activity of hunting wild animals or game, especially for food or sport.

If you did not have game you would not be hunting.

To increase the number of hunters you have to increase the number of game.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Gamekeeper said:


> Once they created the base license, the stage was set for “pay as you go” hunting for every species in Michigan.
> 
> Hunters are being nickeled and dimed right out of the game.
> 
> ...


I hope not. For me this is capitalism not even close to conservation. Sad if this is the future of hunting specifically wing shooting in Michigan. I see no renewable natural resource but rather game bird farms and/or agriculture.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Hunters Edge said:


> I hope not. For me this is capitalism not even close to conservation. Sad if this is the future of hunting specifically wing shooting in Michigan. I see no renewable natural resource but rather game bird farms and/or agriculture.


It was pretty clear to me when my tags for the year created a strip that was over 8 feet long, and cost me 200 bucks.

And then it was confirmed with the endless number of surveys I receive over every species that I bought a tag for and every sport that I bought a license for.


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## Mary Duerksen (Mar 28, 2017)

Hunters Edge said:


> Ever wondered why sharp tailed grouse are not in southern and central Michigan? In the 50's n 60's wild turkeys were reintroduced in Michigan. We lost pheasants and pheasant hunting mid 70's and at one time close to a million hunters hunted pheasants in Michigan.
> 
> Recently a lot of money, and data was reviewed showing adequate habitat for reintroducing sharp tailed grouse below the bridge. Yet the program or the reintroduction was scrapped after not only spending the research but also showing the habitat was available.
> 
> ...


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## lewisg (Jun 28, 2006)

I want the DNR to reintroduce the Woolly Mammoth or Mastodon! Hey, they're native to Michigan. Farmers would probably have a different option though. Can you imagine are auto collision with one of those!


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Gamekeeper said:


> Once they created the base license, the stage was set for “pay as you go” hunting for every species in Michigan.
> 
> Hunters are being nickeled and dimed right out of the game.
> 
> ...


I dont agree at all that money is the reasoning. We didnt raise tag prices for decades and hunter numbers declined every year. What we pay for tags in michigan is peanuts and a real bargain. $200 for a season of tags is nothing. I took my family of 5 to a movie over xmas holiday and dropped $80. That wasn't dinner and a move that was a movie with 2 popcorns and a few drinks. We are talking 2 hrs of entertainment for a family. A buddy just paid $700 for 1 ticket to a rolling stones concert. My 21 yr old daughter goes to concerts all the time. $150 for nose bleed seats is common. 

Hunting is cheap entertainment.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

DirtySteve said:


> I dont agree at all that money is the reasoning.
> Hunting is cheap entertainment.


We aren't going to agree on most of this, except that which I left in the quote.

When my season tags are over 8ft long, I am being itemized out of the field.

The budget is going to PAYGO, and there isn't any legitimate way to stop it.
Now that people found a way to intervene for their pet projects via the legislature,
the general admin at the DNR are helpless in protecting small game hunting.I

HAP for sharptails is an obvious example.
It's not biologically necessary, and only benefited a tiny number of people.
It can't be justified in the face of legislative pressure to continue put-n-take which makes constituents vote for them.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Decent thread concerning Sharptails. Though i have often thougth that Hungarian partridge or Grey partridge should be investigated for possible re-establishment in Michigan.
Early in the last Century, say 1910 Hungarian or Grey Partridge were released in The Northern Lower. There is not open season on Gray Partridge. Now We all understand Chukars are not native and hence have no season here in Michigan. They can be shot just about anytime they are available. 
Greys are an absolute wonderful flushing and flying bird. They covey hard and can fly literally for miles. Michigan would seem to have a ample cover situation of mixed woodlands and open meadows. 
As a game Farm bird they are tougher to raise, namely because they are not flock breeders like Pheasants, Chukar and Quail. The females selects her mate.
Size wise they are smaller than a Ruff G. Chukar size 
More fuel for the fire....










Hal


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

i tend to agree. I too have shot Huns out West and in the UK. Personally i think and feel that the "Glory Days' of upland sporting in Michigan have past us by. Human population, and land use decisions are the sporting life's biggest enemies.

Hal


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

gundogguy said:


> Decent thread concerning Sharptails. Though i have often thougth that Hungarian partridge or Grey partridge should be investigated for possible re-establishment in Michigan.
> Early in the last Century, say 1910 Hungarian or Grey Partridge were released in The Northern Lower. There is not open season on Gray Partridge. Now We all understand Chukars are not native and hence have no season here in Michigan. They can be shot just about anytime they are available.
> Greys are an absolute wonderful flushing and flying bird. They covey hard and can fly literally for miles. Michigan would seem to have a ample cover situation of mixed woodlands and open meadows.
> As a game Farm bird they are tougher to raise, namely because they are not flock breeders like Pheasants, Chukar and Quail. The females selects her mate.
> ...


Hal, MI is too wet for Huns.
I've shot Grey's all over US and CA, and UK, never saw them except in steppe terrain.
dry land farmsteads and sage flats mostly. Though in the UK, they do OK on the smaller, edgier, farms.

Of the 6 sharptail subs, I've shot 5, and I think the Columbian's terrain looked the most like MI to me.


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## Zeboy (Oct 4, 2002)

The DNR tried Huns again in the late 1980's in the "Northern" Lower. They gave up after a few years. The "word" that I heard was that they felt our climate was just too wet, as was mentioned in the post above. I would think that might work against Sharptails as well.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Zeboy said:


> The DNR tried Huns again in the late 1980's in the "Northern" Lower. They gave up after a few years. The "word" that I heard was that they felt our climate was just too wet, as was mentioned in the post above. I would think that might work against Sharptails as well.


Sharptails have adapted to very snowy, and very wet, locations.
But not away from landscape level disturbances.

The cheapest way to rekindle waves of sharptails in MI is to convince the feds to clear the national forests in the up.

No clearing no sharptails


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Gamekeeper said:


> Sharptails have adapted to very snowy, and very wet, locations.
> But not away from landscape level disturbances.
> 
> The cheapest way to rekindle waves of sharptails in MI is to convince the feds to clear the national forests in the up.
> ...


Or relocate sharp tailed grouse to areas that already have suitable habitat in the LP. Seems like it would not only be easier but would not upset UP deer hunters. It would also increase range of sharp tailed grouse significantly and populations IMO


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Maybe there is another game bird that could adapt to our environment that has never been tried.It's a long shot but is as possible as the others.


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

birdhntr said:


> Maybe there is another game bird that could adapt to our environment that has never been tried.It's a long shot but is as possible as the others.


I would think a native species like the sharp tailed grouse would have a greater chance of not only surviving but flourishing. As long as they have suitable habitat.

Similar to our wild turkeys having to be reintroduced and relocated.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

I would say it would be nice to have the birds around. No doubt the dnr has found that there is habitat that will support a population, but no one has illuminated us on the actual numbers. I'm guessing the number is small. Certainly not the panacea of birds that will bring back a million hunters we all hope for. It's hard to compare a very adaptable critter like a turkey to one with limited range and, apparently, very specific habitat needs.

I doubt we are heading to pay for hunting except for very specific species. Deer are still there. Turkey. Grouse and woodcock still there in very huntable numbers. Bear just fine. State and national forests not going anywhere.

Probably a primary reason hunter numbers are declining has nothing to do with video games and go a lot deeper than entertainment or the fact that hunting is hard. Young adults live in cities more than ever before and it's difficult to get to any hunting land let alone good land. I have to drive an hour to shoot my rifle beyond 100 yards and 40 minutes for that. On top of that, young people spend time in college and perhaps underemployed after that. Carrying on a hunt ling lifestyle isnt easy out of a dorm and many fall away and lose interest.


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