# Michigan pheasant



## RecurveRx

I believe a pheasant can go 31.5 days without food before they start canibalizing each other. Seriously. 

Awesome pictures! Thanks for sharing them. 


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## gundogguy

RecurveRx said:


> I believe a pheasant can go 31.5 days without food before they start canibalizing each other. Seriously.
> 
> Awesome pictures! Thanks for sharing them.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


They can go 29-31 days without water. In either case at that time frame they would be easy peasy for predators.


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## michgundog

There are a decent number of birds to make them still worth pursing IMO.









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## hehibrits

As we see more QDM numbers will improve. Have you ever read the whitetail forum on here, those guys are going whole hog on food plots, switchgrass, hinge cuts, all of which help other wildlife.


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## Opey

hehibrits said:


> As we see more QDM numbers will improve. Have you ever read the whitetail forum on here, those guys are going whole hog on food plots, switchgrass, hinge cuts, all of which help other wildlife.


That is a great point that I never 
realized. One of my buddies that is huge into QDM has told me he has seen more pheasant then he has ever seen. It makes complete sense. 


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## BIGSP

hehibrits said:


> As we see more QDM numbers will improve. Have you ever read the whitetail forum on here, those guys are going whole hog on food plots, switchgrass, hinge cuts, all of which help other wildlife.


I hadn't thought about that but it makes sense to me.


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## Unregistered4

If you go to the Pheasant Forever website, you will see they have a similar prespective about food plots.

Look in the "Pheasant Ecology, Food and Cover Plots. It gives an interesting insite on wintering birds...and their individual needs...sex wise. Hens are much more susceptible to deprivation and consist of the mayority of loss during the winter months...especially when fodder is at a great distance from their protective cover.


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## k9wernet

Opey said:


> That is a great point that I never
> realized. One of my buddies that is huge into QDM has told me he has seen more pheasant then he has ever seen. It makes complete sense.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


The downside is that most of those guys are so uptight about their deer sanctuaries, you're never going to get permission to walk them for pheasants. The smell of a birddog in December will SURELY scare off big bucks the following November.


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## Unregistered4

Personally, I believe the greatest aide to the pheasant comeback has been the reintroduction of coyotes in lower peninsula. Go to the DNR site and research...why...they did that. Their intention was/were that...coyotes eat/kill skunks, opossum, raccoons, fox and turkeys, and a small number of other egg eaters. They may even catch a raptor on the ground. I know I've mentioned before that "l believe" a coyote can not catch a healthy, wild ring neck pheasant, and that's still my belief, however, when comparing a flush "from the ground" of a redtail, sharpshin or even a cooper's hawk to a ring-neck it's beyond evident that one, the latter, gets airborne much faster than the other. 

I've personally snuck up on a redtail feeding in long grass, after seeing it dive on something, and got close enough that with a good jump could have caught it myself. Of course, this was while he/she was feeding on a rabbit. Normally, if they kill a mouse, snake or mole...they carry it away immediately. We actually walked up on a sharpshin that was feeding on a blackbird, that was still quite alive, and that darn bird actually gave us a look...like he was going nowhere without his dinner and we better back off if we knew what was good for us. It eventually flushed, and I'm not the least bit fluent in sharpshin, but it was giving us the business as he left...lol

Just some observations and beliefs...


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## Frank C

k9wernet,

100% agree. I've been turned down countless times - even during last week of December - due to landowner concerns with "your dogs running deer off the property." What're ya gonna do??

Frank


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## brownitsdown84

I have seen a lot since last summer. I jumped 7 females last week they were all in the same bush. I usually see one everyday on my way home from work here in lenawee

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## k9wernet

brownitsdown84 said:


> I jumped 7 females last week they were all in the same bush.


Wait for it...


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## k9wernet

Unregistered4 said:


> I know I've mentioned before that "l believe" a coyote can not catch a healthy, wild ring neck pheasant


What about a ground roosting bird in the middle of the night?


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## hehibrits

k9wernet said:


> The downside is that most of those guys are so uptight about their deer sanctuaries, you're never going to get permission to walk them for pheasants. The smell of a birddog in December will SURELY scare off big bucks the following November.


I hear ya, the upside is it's better than no birds. These areas are important for holdover, winter cover, and brood rearing also. Birds spread out and use surrounding cover during the course of a day. I move a few off a ditch that before the guy across the road fixed up his 40 for deer held nothing at all. Sure, I cant run his switchgrass, but I benefit indirectly. Where I go in Iowa these spots I can always get on, butAFTER they get their shooter, so I hope for a good bow season &#128556;


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## k9wernet

Frank C said:


> k9wernet,
> 
> 100% agree. I've been turned down countless times - even during last week of December - due to landowner concerns with "your dogs running deer off the property." What're ya gonna do??
> 
> Frank


You keep knocking on doors.

I've gotten permission to hunt from plenty of non-hunters or casual deer hunters. The QDM guys might have the best pheasant property, but that healthy population should spill over into areas you can hunt. That said, the religion of deer hunting has had a sad overall effect on sportsmen IMO.


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## hehibrits

Unregistered4 said:


> Personally, I believe the greatest aide to the pheasant comeback has been the reintroduction of coyotes in lower peninsula. Go to the DNR site and research...why...they did that. Their intention was/were that...coyotes eat/kill skunks, opossum, raccoons, fox and turkeys, and a small number of other egg eaters. They may even catch a raptor on the ground. I know I've mentioned before that "l believe" a coyote can not catch a healthy, wild ring neck pheasant, and that's still my belief, however, when comparing a flush "from the ground" of a redtail, sharpshin or even a cooper's hawk to a ring-neck it's beyond evident that one, the latter, gets airborne much faster than the other.
> 
> I've personally snuck up on a redtail feeding in long grass, after seeing it dive on something, and got close enough that with a good jump could have caught it myself. Of course, this was while he/she was feeding on a rabbit. Normally, if they kill a mouse, snake or mole...they carry it away immediately. We actually walked up on a sharpshin that was feeding on a blackbird, that was still quite alive, and that darn bird actually gave us a look...like he was going nowhere without his dinner and we better back off if we knew what was good for us. It eventually flushed, and I'm not the least bit fluent in sharpshin, but it was giving us the business as he left...lol
> 
> Just some observations and beliefs...


While I agree, I have witnessed both a red tail and coyote "catch" a wild pheasant. Both were hens fwiw...
I have also seen both get a serious case of lead poisoning.


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## k9wernet

hehibrits said:


> Where I go in Iowa these spots I can always get on, butAFTER they get their shooter, so I hope for a good bow season &#128556;


What's the Iowa deer season vs. pheasant season?

I think small game hunting is hurt by the fact that we have such a long deer season. With the early and late doe season, early and late bow season, muzzy and regular firearm, a guy can hunt deer Mid-Sept through Jan 1.

If late pheasant was in Jan instead of Dec, or if deer season ended in Nov, I think it would be easier to gain access to hunt pheasants in MI.


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## Double Gun

k9wernet said:


> What's the Iowa deer season vs. pheasant season?
> 
> I think small game hunting is hurt by the fact that we have such a long deer season. With the early and late doe season, early and late bow season, muzzy and regular firearm, a guy can hunt deer Mid-Sept through Jan 1.
> 
> If late pheasant was in Jan instead of Dec, or if deer season ended in Nov, I think it would be easier to gain access to hunt pheasants in MI.


They have a long deer season but much less firearm length. The thing about Iowa is deer hunting is a new thing for them. When I was going out there in the mid to late 90's no one was deer hunting. I 'm sure it is still easier to get permission in the late season but it will be just like here eventually. Deer hunting is big money for leases and the people that pursue big bucks are extremely passionate.


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## hehibrits

k9wernet said:


> What's the Iowa deer season vs. pheasant season?
> 
> I think small game hunting is hurt by the fact that we have such a long deer season. With the early and late doe season, early and late bow season, muzzy and regular firearm, a guy can hunt deer Mid-Sept through Jan 1.
> 
> If late pheasant was in Jan instead of Dec, or if deer season ended in Nov, I think it would be easier to gain access to hunt pheasants in MI.


Bow season opens October 1st and runs til the first of December. By end of October, early November the rut is on and crops are down. Most of the time the locals have their brute hanging in the barn by then. Shotgun season is only 5 days in early December and another few days late December and their idea of "gun hunting" is more about population control than getting a trophy. I went along one time and will never go again. Doing 55 mph across a picked cornfield in a 78 ford pickup and launching it Dukes of Hazzard style into a fence row was enough for me. So, basically when deer season starts here I try to roll out there. Best time of the season there too.


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## hehibrits

Double Gun said:


> They have a long deer season but much less firearm length. The thing about Iowa is deer hunting is a new thing for them. When I was going out there in the mid to late 90's no one was deer hunting. I 'm sure it is still easier to get permission in the late season but it will be just like here eventually. Deer hunting is big money for leases and the people that pursue big bucks are extremely passionate.


Yes, I know guys out there that have told me that in the 80's if they saw a deer, they would run home and call all their neighbors and family and tell them. They were that rare. Now days they want them eradicated.


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## Opey

Unregistered4 said:


> Personally, I believe the greatest aide to the pheasant comeback has been the reintroduction of coyotes in lower peninsula. Go to the DNR site and research...why...they did that. Their intention was/were that...coyotes eat/kill skunks, opossum, raccoons, fox and turkeys, and a small number of other egg eaters. They may even catch a raptor on the ground. I know I've mentioned before that "l believe" a coyote can not catch a healthy, wild ring neck pheasant, and that's still my belief, however, when comparing a flush "from the ground" of a redtail, sharpshin or even a cooper's hawk to a ring-neck it's beyond evident that one, the latter, gets airborne much faster than the other.
> 
> I've personally snuck up on a redtail feeding in long grass, after seeing it dive on something, and got close enough that with a good jump could have caught it myself. Of course, this was while he/she was feeding on a rabbit. Normally, if they kill a mouse, snake or mole...they carry it away immediately. We actually walked up on a sharpshin that was feeding on a blackbird, that was still quite alive, and that darn bird actually gave us a look...like he was going nowhere without his dinner and we better back off if we knew what was good for us. It eventually flushed, and I'm not the least bit fluent in sharpshin, but it was giving us the business as he left...lol
> 
> Just some observations and beliefs...


I don't want to change the subj but I am always looking at new info and learning as much as I can. 
With that being said, I have never heard of the dnr reintroduction of coyotes. I can remember a healthy population of them for the last 30 yrs. Granted they seem to have exploded now, which I contribute to less trappers and hunters along with abundant small game specially rabbits.


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## Unregistered4

k9wernet said:


> What about a ground roosting bird in the middle of the night?


I guess any scenario is possible...but I would have to say, percentage wise...no. If you've ever watched a coyote in action, you've probably noticed that they move through cover more like a dog and aren't exactly the stealthiest of predators. Now, if you've ever watched a fox in pursuit mode, they move more like a cat, almost like the ninja of predators. I could see a fox catching a wild pheasant while sleeping, a hen while nesting or at rest. A coyote...not so much. But, hehibrits say he's seen it...so...I guess...I'd still have to question the healthiness of the bird(s) caught or whether they were forced from excellent cover by the over abundance of roosters. There are so many variables, again, that any scenario isn't off limits.

A couple years back, my wife and I observed a coyote walking within twenty yards of a rooster. The bird was all proud and head high as he strutted along side the coyote. At first I couldn't understand why he would put himself at risk, but then my eyes caught movement on the other side of the rooster. It was a hen, and this was during the spring, and that rooster put himself within a few yards of that coyote at times...and that coyote never once made a move towards either bird. The coyote just glanced at the birds and slipped into the ditchrow. Pretty neat, watching that rooster protect is woman folk.

Another quick story about observations...

Last year, while out splitting wood in January, we moved forty some birds over a single point. I had one of my setters out with me for company and he kept sneaking off into the field I was along side, so I finally gave in and took him for a stroll. Our field out back is excellent winter cover and I assume these birds were having some sort of family reunion, since, normally during December...we'll only move about fifteen birds during an outing. The flock contained mostly hens, probably seventy percent, and it was nice to see so many birds in the air at once. Even when I was younger, which was a while ago, I'd never in my life seen that many pheasants in flight at once.

Anyway...I hope they continue to multiple and whatever it is...that's making them have a comeback...continues.


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## Unregistered4

Opey said:


> I don't want to change the subj but I am always looking at new info and learning as much as I can.
> With that being said, I have never heard of the dnr reintroduction of coyotes. I can remember a healthy population of them for the last 30 yrs. Granted they seem to have exploded now, which I contribute to less trappers and hunters along with abundant small game specially rabbits.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Well, I just went to the DNR site and can't really come up with anything that mentions/supports my comments. I know I've read somewhere about it and kind of remember seeing them being released on Michigan Out of Doors, and it was probably thirty or forty years ago...if my mind serves me right. And for what it's worth...I don't ever remember seeing a coyote or anyone talking about them when I was in my teens or early twenties (1970-80). And we spent ever waking hour in the woods, **** hunting, bird hunting, deer hunting and walking trap lines around the Yale, Capac, Goodells, Emmett, Port Huron and Avoca area. Weird that we never saw a coyote, ever...or heard of someone hunting them. Especially, considering...we killed anything that moved back then.

Anyway...please just disregard my earlier statement...since I'm working off my memory.


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## Opey

Unregistered i grew up in Marysville and it sounds like we hunted the same areas just need to add Verona and minden. Our best fields use to be public access in avoca.


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## Opey

Not looking for a argument AT ALL, but I remember when my dad was building our house in 1977 we would hear them yelping in the fields at the end of the road. Being that I was born in Detroit that freaked my brothers and I out the first couple of times. It wasn't long though before my dad would take us out there to show that they are more afraid of us then we r of them. After that we thought it was cool to hear them..


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## k9wernet

There are all kinds of claims that they were introduced by the DNR, but I've never once seen them substantiated.

They're native to the Western US as far north as Canada and down through Mexico. My personal belief is that as humans colonized the east, removed forests and apex predators, we made a more suitable habitat for them and they've been increasing ever since.


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## brownitsdown84

I was told by a CO at lake hudson state game area that they did release pheasant there. They weren't average american though they were a different breed from over seas. Heck I don't remember where but last year they were brush hogging, logging, and burning a lot of the land there and he said it was for the pheasants. It messed up a few spots I rabbit hunt there but maybe stuff like that is helping them?? Good to see either way. I've never killed a wild pheasant and I would love to some day.

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## michgundog

brownitsdown84 said:


> I was told by a CO at lake hudson state game area that they did release pheasant there. They weren't average american though they were a different breed from over seas. Heck I don't remember where but last year they were brush hogging, logging, and burning a lot of the land there and he said it was for the pheasants. It messed up a few spots I rabbit hunt there but maybe stuff like that is helping them?? Good to see either way. I've never killed a wild pheasant and I would love to some day.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS840 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


The pheasants the CO was referring to were probably Sichuan. Pheasants ringnecks and Sichuan are not "native" to the North America. Best thing ever imported from China IMO. 

I read a while back too, that yottes are good for pheasants for many of the reasons previously mentioned. Also, they migrated east from out west, never heard of the MDNR having anything to do with it. 


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## Unregistered4

Opey said:


> Not looking for a argument AT ALL, but...


No argument here, I just find it simply amazing that I never heard, seen or heard of them being around when I was younger, even after spending hundreds, if not thousands of hours in the woods, night camping behind the house out in the woods, hunting, **** hunting every evening/night and following my cousin and brother on their traplines.

You'd think I'd of at least heard one.

Weird...

Maybe, I should go over on the trapping forum and see what they have to say...there must be some older folks there that remember chasing ***** in the sixties or seventies.

Something in the back of my peabrain says I remember everyone being in an uproar about them being reentroduced here. I can see the DNR not wanting to take responsiblity for them though...lol


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## CHASINEYES

Unregistered4 said:


> No argument here, I just find it simply amazing that I never heard, seen or heard of them being around when I was younger, even after spending hundreds, if not thousands of hours in the woods, night camping behind the house out in the woods, hunting, **** hunting every evening/night and following my cousin and brother on their traplines.
> 
> You'd think I'd of at least heard one.
> 
> Weird...
> 
> Maybe, I should go over on the trapping forum and see what they have to say...there must be some older folks there that remember chasing ***** in the sixties or seventies.
> 
> Something in the back of my peabrain says I remember everyone being in an uproar about them being reentroduced here. I can see the DNR not wanting to take responsiblity for them though...lol


You sound like your a few years older than I am. I seen this thread and had to call my dad to get some numbers. Fox and coyote had bounties up until some point. We didn't have coyotes but we did have fox. In 74 or 75 a neighbor trapped 121 fox. An uncle took 35, his brother 55 and my cousin 75. Those numbers were just one year of fox trapping and from an area roughly 10 sq miles. I'm sure plenty others were trapping as well, they were getting $60+ for a fox. Pheasant and rabbit hunting was terrible around this time. Early 80s fox in our area contracted mange, I remember seeing them while small game hunting. All those fox trapped and never a yote.

We didn't have coyotes until around 90 and it was like they were everywhere out of the blue. A marlette hunter killed one just north of sandusky with an ohio tag. Mid 90s a dnr made his annual stop to check deer hanging from our pole. My dad explained to him we never had coyotes, then asked where they came from. His reply pointing at a pole full of bucks was, "we brought them in from ohio, you guys weren't doing your job." In other words hunters were not killing enough deer.

That may sound like a black helicopter story to some, but true story.


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## Opey

If you find anything please post or give me a direction to go. 
I think checking with the trappers is prob a great start.


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## CHASINEYES

They released sishuans in our area in the 80s. Seen them around for a couple years. They didn't do any better than ring necks. With what deer hunting has become, we will never see pheasant hunting like they had in the hey days. You need to have predator trapping.


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## hehibrits

CHASINEYES said:


> They released sishuans in our area in the 80s. Seen them around for a couple years. They didn't do any better than ring necks. With what deer hunting has become, we will never see pheasant hunting like they had in the hey days. You need to have predator trapping.


Shot a szishuan in '93, took it to a taxidermist and the bass turd ate the damn thing and blew me off for a few years til I gave up on ever getting it back. 
**** were fetching $30 a hide during pheasant season. I ran into and talked to a few guys running lines. A lot of them were young guys just getting into it. One group said they had about 4 dozen traps out and had bagged 90 **** so far. As we were talking, they pulled a fat **** out of a trap they had in a culvert.


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## CHASINEYES

hehibrits said:


> Shot a szishuan in '93, took it to a taxidermist and the bass turd ate the damn thing and blew me off for a few years til I gave up on ever getting it back.
> **** were fetching $30 a hide during pheasant season. I ran into and talked to a few guys running lines. A lot of them were young guys just getting into it. One group said they had about 4 dozen traps out and had bagged 90 **** so far. As we were talking, they pulled a fat **** out of a trap they had in a culvert.


That's a bad deal with that taxidermist. Szishuans are a neat bird. Supposedly they like brush more than ringnecks. Seems like they would do well with all the olives around today. The number of small game predators is staggering, I never pass up an opportunity whack any of them.


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## Unregistered4

CHASINEYES said:


> You sound like your a few years older than I am. I seen this thread and had to call my dad to get some numbers. Fox and coyote had bounties up until some point. We didn't have coyotes but we did have fox. In 74 or 75 a neighbor trapped 121 fox. An uncle took 35, his brother 55 and my cousin 75. Those numbers were just one year of fox trapping and from an area roughly 10 sq miles. I'm sure plenty others were trapping as well, they were getting $60+ for a fox. Pheasant and rabbit hunting was terrible around this time. Early 80s fox in our area contracted mange, I remember seeing them while small game hunting. All those fox trapped and never a yote.
> 
> We didn't have coyotes until around 90 and it was like they were everywhere out of the blue. A marlette hunter killed one just north of sandusky with an ohio tag. Mid 90s a dnr made his annual stop to check deer hanging from our pole. My dad explained to him we never had coyotes, then asked where they came from. His reply pointing at a pole full of bucks was, "we brought them in from ohio, you guys weren't doing your job." In other words hunters were not killing enough deer.
> 
> That may sound like a black helicopter story to some, but true story.


And this is exactly the way I remember it happening...we'd have fox, beaver (not of the bush type mentioned earlier in this topic...lol), rats, mink and the occasional badger to remove from traps...never...ever...a coyote.

But, enough about that.

It's funny that you mention olives in your last post, we, our RGS chapter and a group from PF, went out to the Lapeer sate game area, off Five Lakes rd. and cleared out several fencerows and over grown fields, filled with over-grown russian, autumn olive and several species of dogwood. The stuff was probably eight feet tall and the deck below was as clean as a whistle, pure dirt, not even a stitch of grass was growing amongst their spindly trunks. The stuff has little benefit to birds, pheasants, once it gets out of control like that. Sure, a somewhat secure overhead canopy is offered by it's tangled mess of branches, which offers great winter cover protection, and some fodder is produced in the spring, but the majority of the fodder is eaten by song birds, especially robins before it ever hits the ground.


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## michgundog

Unregistered4 said:


> And this is exactly the way I remember it happening...we'd have fox, beaver (not of the bush type mentioned earlier in this topic...lol), rats, mink and the occasional badger to remove from traps...never...ever...a coyote.
> 
> But, enough about that.
> 
> It's funny that you mention olives in your last post, we, our RGS chapter and a group from PF, went out to the Lapeer sate game area, off Five Lakes rd. and cleared out several fencerows and over grown fields, filled with over-grown russian, autumn olive and several species of dogwood. The stuff was probably eight feet tall and the deck below was as clean as a whistle, pure dirt, not even a stitch of grass was growing amongst their spindly trunks. The stuff has little benefit to birds, pheasants, once it gets out of control like that. Sure, a somewhat secure overhead canopy is offered by it's tangled mess of branches, which offers great winter cover protection, and some fodder is produced in the spring, but the majority of the fodder is eaten by song birds, especially robins before it ever hits the ground.



I agree Autumn olive is terrible. The days I've worked at Highland, they give us a herbicide to spray on the stumps of it so it doesn't grow back. 

The DNR should give those piles of ash away in the field behind the pavilion on Five Lakes rd. Good wood going to waste, not to mention its hazard for dogs running over it. I know the work days at Highland they let us take wood for burning. 


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## Unregistered4

michgundog said:


> I agree Autumn olive is terrible. The days I've worked at Highland, they give us a herbicide to spray on the stumps of it so it doesn't grow back.
> 
> The DNR should give those piles of ash away in the field behind the pavilion on Five Lakes rd. Good wood going to waste, not to mention its hazard for dogs running over it. I know the work days at Highland they let us take wood for burning.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yeah, I don't know who the idiotic person was that left that wood there...wait a minute...maybe I do...lol

The year we did that work, they wouldn't allow use to pick up wood, plus, no vehicles were allowed beyond the parking lot. The last time we worked there, we were allowed to pick up wood in certain areas. Our next few habitat projects took place in Deford state game area and they welcomed that...and we were allowed to drive right back to where we were working.

I'll tell you one thing...those guys from the Lapeer chapter of PF could get some serious work done, granted, most of them were in their early twenties and thirties. Us, old ruffed grouse hunters in RGS, were in our forties and fifties...and just about needed to be air-lifted out...lol


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## hehibrits

Unregistered4 said:


> And this is exactly the way I remember it happening...we'd have fox, beaver (not of the bush type mentioned earlier in this topic...lol), rats, mink and the occasional badger to remove from traps...never...ever...a coyote.
> 
> But, enough about that.
> 
> It's funny that you mention olives in your last post, we, our RGS chapter and a group from PF, went out to the Lapeer sate game area, off Five Lakes rd. and cleared out several fencerows and over grown fields, filled with over-grown russian, autumn olive and several species of dogwood. The stuff was probably eight feet tall and the deck below was as clean as a whistle, pure dirt, not even a stitch of grass was growing amongst their spindly trunks. The stuff has little benefit to birds, pheasants, once it gets out of control like that. Sure, a somewhat secure overhead canopy is offered by it's tangled mess of branches, which offers great winter cover protection, and some fodder is produced in the spring, but the majority of the fodder is eaten by song birds, especially robins before it ever hits the ground.


What is a good replacement for Russian olive? There is a piece of public land I hunt out west that has a hedge of Russian olive bisecting the grass and when the snow or ice hits, all the birds get up in there. It's a great windbreak/snow drift maker and must provide some sort of food.


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## Unregistered4

hehibrits said:


> What is a good replacement for Russian olive? There is a piece of public land I hunt out west that has a hedge of Russian olive bisecting the grass and when the snow or ice hits, all the birds get up in there. It's a great windbreak/snow drift maker and must provide some sort of food.


Personally, in that type of situation it might be fine. I've never been out west, but I imagine they keep the fields worked up along these hedgerows you mention, not allowing it to spread. Here, especially in a state game environment, it spreads like wildfire and manipulates the surrounding habitat or takes over completely. Not good at all. But within a fencerow scenario I could see it not being a threat or maybe even beneficial. However, like I say, I've never been out there...so I'm only guessing.


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## 2ESRGR8

Is Russian olive or autumn olive a native specie in any habitat type?


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## RecurveRx

I found that crop remarkable enough to take a pic. It was an oct phz, 3-4 years ago. Packed with hoppers. Lots of food sources available. But he chose hoppers. All game birds seem to like hoppers. 

I think if it will fit in their mouths, they will eat it. 


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## k9wernet

RecurveRx said:


> I think if it will fit in their mouths, they will eat it.


Always been my motto


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## BIGSP

k9wernet said:


> Always been my motto


Anything more than a mouthful you're risking a sprained tongue.


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## Unregistered4

RecurveRx said:


> I found that crop remarkable enough to take a pic. It was an oct phz, 3-4 years ago. Packed with hoppers. Lots of food sources available. But he chose hoppers. All game birds seem to like hoppers.


Just wondering, but if you had to age that rooster...what would be your guess. I know it was a while ago.

I killed about seven roosters last season, which is a lot for me anymore. Over the last few years I've just taken one or two, not wanted to do to much damage. However, now that I'm seeing pretty good numbers I decided to take out some of the neighborhood roosters to dinner. Plus, after missing ninety percent of early grouse season, on account of a broken foot...the dogs needed some feathers in their mouths...and it was easier walking in the field.

Anyhow...

Now, after getting into this discussion...I'm pissed at myself for not checking their crops. We had one group of birds, a family unit, three roosters and six hens, that we moved in Nov. that was extremely young. I took one of the roosters with tail feathers about six inches long, only because it was over a friends young dog...I'd normally pass on such a bird, and I'd like to have seen its crop in comparison to older birds. There may be no difference, however, it would be interesting to compare them by age.

Hopefully, bird numbers are good enough for me to take a few this season. Plus, I have a new Smith, it's still ninety-two years old...but it's new to me...lol, with full and fuller barrels, chambered 2 3/4...so, that will help some. My old Smith, I had the barrels opened up for ruffed grouse and is chambered 2 1/2 and the only roosters I could kill were crossers at thirty yards or less.

Also, Brent (BIGSP)...when I read your last comment and your signature line...I laughed out loud.


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## Zeboy

RecurveRx said:


> I found that crop remarkable enough to take a pic. It was an oct phz, 3-4 years ago. Packed with hoppers. Lots of food sources available. But he chose hoppers. All game birds seem to like hoppers.
> 
> I think if it will fit in their mouths, they will eat it.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I have to believe they are fairly opportunistic feeders and will eat many things that are easy pickings. Back 15 years ago, when we actually had pheasants in West Michigan I remember an early December hunt where two of us killed 3 roosters. I started cleaning the birds. I noticed the crops were completely stuffed full. I assumed it was corn seeing we were hunting on the edge of corn. When I looked closer I was shocked to see that all 3 crops were stuffed with corn borers.

I recall another December hunt where I killed a couple roosters where their crops were full of bean sprouts. The field I was hunting was next to picked soy beans. The waste grain was sprouting and they were feeding on the tender young sprouts. If it's high protein and easy to get, they'll eat it.


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## michgundog

This is a great thread on the king of game birds. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Unregistered4

kingfisher2 said:


> Interesting thread! I wanted to add today I spoke with a CO about a dead Cooper Hawk we found in the yard (Pic and Post on another thread). He informed me this winter has been really hard on wildlife and he's received more than usual calls on expired birds this year.


In what topic did you post the pictures?

Those cooper hawks are deadly, wait, I believe they are. More so than a sharp shin, red-tail or the little killer, death on wings, falcon, American kestrel.

The other day I was at my parents place and they feed song birds. they had a sharp shin there that had a system worked out to perfection. He/She'd dive down from the maple tree and flush the little song birds into the large window we were watching through. He/She did it three times in a row to perfection.


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## k9wernet

michgundog said:


> This is a great thread on the king of game birds.


Weird... I don't see the ruffed grouse referenced once in this thread!

Or maybe you were referencing a different thread and forgot to share the link???


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## MIGSP

Unregistered4 said:


> It's funny...I just went back and re-read this entire post and I can't find anything to substantiate your claim. We talked about coyotes, where I used terms like, "I believe", "I imagine", "hopefully", etc and then later said I could find nothing to validate my claim on the DNR site, yes we had some disagreement, but it was all pleasant conversation (I thought), and then we talked about Russian Olive and its benefits or harms, where I really disagreed with no one, then I mention feeding pheasants and someone says it* "never"* should be done, so I offer evidence from the DNR site that validates my opinion or action...and I'm now an internet expert?
> 
> I guess Twain was correct...
> 
> To quote..."The two most important days of your life are the day you are born and the day you discover why."
> 
> So, I guess my life is complete...thank you very much...for now I've discovered why...lol
> 
> And, by the way and just so you are aware..."never", "I am sure"...are terms or phrases that experts use. If you can find those phrases in any of my post regarding someone elses actions or comments, please let me know.



Still just as passive aggressive as before. Hopefully nobody hurts your feelings by disagreeing with you and you won't quit this site also. I am sure that everyone. Feel free to grab your Webster's and critique this post also.


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## Jim58

MIGSP said:


> Still just as passive aggressive as before. Hopefully nobody hurts your feelings by disagreeing with you and you won't quit this site also. I am sure that everyone. Feel free to grab your Webster's and critique this post also.


You are correct the pheasant's do tend to get passive aggressive when trying to find food in a hard winter. I also agree that I hope they don't get hurt digging in the ice and snow. However I disagree with you on their quitting just because of a little ice and snow. I think they are more apt to toss away the Webster's and grab an atlas for a quick trip to a warmer climate. 

I hope I was able to answer your questions as they pertain to this thread.


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## Unregistered4

MIGSP said:


> Still just as passive aggressive as before. Hopefully nobody hurts your feelings by disagreeing with you and you won't quit this site also. I am sure that everyone. Feel free to grab your Webster's and critique this post also.


Already did that once, ya jerk wad.

Why do you think I'm Unregistered4, ya jerk wad.

By the f'n way, ya jerk wad...no one "hurt my feelings" anywhere, ya jerk wad.

And thank you for everything you have brought to this topic.

My apologizes to everyone else in this topic.

I'm done...with the jerk wad...he's just been added to my ignore list.


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## Steelheadfred

Test

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## turkeytamer41

A couple from yesterday


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## Unregistered4

"turkeytamer41", I might know some of those birds...lol
[/COLOR] 
Sometimes I wonder if the reintroduction of the wild turkey hasn't played a small part in the disappearance of the ring-neck? When I was in my teens, we never saw wild turkeys around. Then in the eighties they started to show up locally.

Six years ago, we had a flock of turkeys that frequented our area during the winter months. Probably seventy some birds. I'd come home from work and they would be along one edge of the field next door, then the next day farther back, then about mid-point next day, so on, working their way across the field like a vacuum cleaner. They'd eventually move into an adjacent field, doing the same. Sometimes I wonder if they were to much competition for pheasants.

These past few years, we've seen very few turkeys, why, I have no idea, but we did have an up-tick in coyotes a few years ago also. I just find it interesting that the turkey disappears from our area...and the pheasant seems to get a foot hold here.

Looking back, I don't ever remember seeing pheasants and turkeys in the same area of a field. Deer and turkeys, but not ring-necks. I also think about the damage turkeys could do once they stumbled upon a pheasant nest.

Just some thoughts and wondering if anyone else has noticed similar events.


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## k9wernet

I'm too young (and too new to the sport) to have witnessed those events, but I've heard the theory.

As much as I love wingshooting and prefer it to turkey hunting, it does strike me as odd to get too bent out of shape (not that you personally seem bent out of shape) over the idea of a native species (Turkeys) displacing an exotic, introduced one (pheasants).

That said, I don't think turkeys are to blame for the pheasant's population woes. I think clean farming, increased/improved pesticides & herbicides, and general habitat loss are the real culprits.


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## Unregistered4

Yep, thought the same thing on the way into work before writing that last post. Wondered if anyone else would make the connection.

Seemed weird for me to like an import...better than a good old American made model...lol


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## k9wernet

On the radio this morning:



> Harsh winter taking a toll on Michigan wildlife
> 
> By STEVE CARMODY
> 
> Enlarge image
> A DNR official says the next few weeks may be especially critical to Michigans songbirds, pheasants, and turkeys.
> Credit Steve Carmody / Michigan Radio
> Michigan wildlife is struggling this winter, just like the states human population.
> 
> State wildlife officials say the next few weeks will be critical for Michigan deer, pheasants, and other animals.
> 
> As the days grow longer, animals become more active. Their metabolisms pick up and they need to forage for more food.
> 
> But when the snow is several feet deep, and a layer of ice coats normal food sources, finding enough food can be a problem.
> 
> Russ Mason is the head of the Department of Natural Resources Wildlife Division. Mason points out wildlife is adapted to survive Michigan winters, but adds this year is a little more challenging.
> 
> Were already having problems, dont get me wrong, says Mason. But it would be a really bad winter if this persists later into spring when animals' energy requirements go up.
> 
> Mason says the next few weeks may be especially critical to Michigans songbirds, pheasants, and turkeys.
> 
> Turkeys are even showing a little stress down south, says Mason. In Allegan, at our state game area, we got three feet of snow on the ground and 10-foot drifts. Its really hard for turkeys to get through that.
> 
> Mason wants to discourage the feeding of deer. He says feeding deer can lead to other problems, including the spread of serious diseases, like Chronic Wasting Disease.
> 
> http://michiganradio.org/post/harsh-winter-taking-toll-michigan-wildlife


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## MERGANZER

Mason is an idiot. So just let all of the deer die instead of some. GENIUS!

Ganzer


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## itchn2fish

MERGANZER said:


> Mason is an idiot. So just let all of the deer die instead of some. GENIUS!
> 
> Ganzer


http://www.linkedin.com/pub/russ-mason/65/b1a/507


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## CHASINEYES

itchn2fish said:


> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/russ-mason/65/b1a/507


That's a very impressive resume.


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## Steelheadfred

hehibrits said:


> Feel about what?


The decimation of their pheasant hunting.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Double Gun

Steelheadfred said:


> It did, and I was in support of those changes, but I can't in good conscience support it anymore. Wonder how the boys in Iowa feel?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Yeh, at least we have grouse. They sure do have plenty of deer and turkeys!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Unregistered4

The other day I took a magazine over to my parents place that had a short story I had written. The editor of the magazine had sent me several copies, so I gave one to my mom. Since, she is probably my greatest critic of grammar and sentence structure. Anyhow, she read the story, after my dad and sister, and only pointed out one mistake. Which, I knew of and was hoping she'd catch it, being eighty-something and all, it's nice to see she still got it.

So, a few days later I recieve a letter in the mail from my mom, where she says that she has read the story again three times and she couldn't believe how she felt as though she was walking along with us in the story. Then she went on to tell me about her only experience with pheasant hunting. She was twleve, the year 1946 and they were still living on the farm just north of Yale. Her and her dad, who was sixty-six at the time were mending fences up by the barn when a group of "city folk" (her words, not mine) bird hunters that had just hunted the farm returned. They'd gotten their limit and had left a hen along the fencerow out back that was shot by mistake. The city folk left and afterwards, my grandfather said lets go get that bird they left, no sense it going to waste, and I'll grab my gun and maybe we can get another for supper. My mom was very excited about the prospect of hunting something for dinner. Her mom had passed five years earlier, so something special like this for dinner would definately be a treat.

Well, grandpa grabbed his old sxs that was leaning by the front door and off they went. They found the hen shortly and proceeded on. Her dad told her to get out ahead of him some and maybe she could scare one up. Sure enough, another bird was taken and dinner was secured. She talked about plucking the two birds and the feel of their warm bodies and feeling death again at such a young age. They enjoyed the dinner and drove into town afterwards. It was opening day as she remembers it, and the town was just bustling with activity, men in every shape and size were dressed in orange and brown, some fancier than others she recalls, folks were showing off their shotguns to one another, dogs of every shape and size also ran about the main street, excited about their chores she figured. It was like the circus was in town and folks filled the restaurant and streets in every direction.

She went on to say she couldn't remember what ever happen to her dad's old gun. He mainly used it for running off foxes and racoon from the hen house, when her mom was still alive. Her older sister did shoot a squirrel one time, that bounced off every branch of the tree it was in, as it made its way down. Her sister cried at the sight and ran to the house, never to hunt again. Wasn't much after that they moved to town, the farm was hard enough to hold onto when even her mother was there to help out, but after her passing...the writing was on the wall. 

I'm glad my mom took the time to write out her story, it just gives me a small glimpse of her childhood. Especially, since time will bury such things easily.


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## hehibrits

Steelheadfred said:


> The decimation of their pheasant hunting.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


To be sadly truthful, I would say 9 out of 10 rural Iowans don't care. I am sure the chamber and some business folk miss the army of orange. In the area my friends live in deer hunting $$ has more than replaced bird $$. Late goose season also keeps the motels and bars full. In almost 20 years of going there, I have hunted pheasant with one local. If they want a pheasant they will shoot it with a .22 off the combine. I have heard more complaints about trespassers, dogs in the beans, etc. than loss if revenue 100-1. It's tough seeing that the first few weeks of the season normally coincide with full on harvest and the last thing a farmer wants is people running terraces while they pick. Now throw in big dollar deer hunting that starts oct 1 and goes til jan 1 with the rut happening end of October and tell a farmer the woes of a pheasant hunter. They laugh. My buddy has two cabins he rents out to hunters, 10 years ago it was $50 a night there or $40 at the motel, 95% pheasant hunters. Now it is $100/night at the cabin and $60 per at the motel, 95% deer hinters. Plus the guiding/outfitting fees (access to ground) they never got from bird hunters. One thing we need to realize about farmers is that they are business people. Bottom line is all that matters to most. There is more money in corn and deer than grass an pheasant by a long shot.


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## WestCoastHunter

hehibrits said:


> To be sadly truthful, I would say 9 out of 10 rural Iowans don't care. I am sure the chamber and some business folk miss the army of orange. In the area my friends live in deer hunting $$ has more than replaced bird $$. Late goose season also keeps the motels and bars full. In almost 20 years of going there, I have hunted pheasant with one local. If they want a pheasant they will shoot it with a .22 off the combine. I have heard more complaints about trespassers, dogs in the beans, etc. than loss if revenue 100-1. It's tough seeing that the first few weeks of the season normally coincide with full on harvest and the last thing a farmer wants is people running terraces while they pick. Now throw in big dollar deer hunting that starts oct 1 and goes til jan 1 with the rut happening end of October and tell a farmer the woes of a pheasant hunter. They laugh. My buddy has two cabins he rents out to hunters, 10 years ago it was $50 a night there or $40 at the motel, 95% pheasant hunters. Now it is $100/night at the cabin and $60 per at the motel, 95% deer hinters. Plus the guiding/outfitting fees (access to ground) they never got from bird hunters. One thing we need to realize about farmers is that they are business people. Bottom line is all that matters to most. There is more money in corn and deer than grass an pheasant by a long shot.



I think this is true everywhere. Some of the loudest howls in places like Montana and Idaho regarding wolves are from outfitters and guides. They aren't upset because of disappearing pheasant or any game bird for that matter, it's the deer and elk. The owner of the company I work for hires a guide every year and goes "hunting." He pays some seriously insane money to do it. When I talk bird hunting with him he looks at me like a deer in headlights and talks about duck hunting one time and invariably someone interrupts with their latest deer/elk hunting story.


Until game birds like pheasants become a cash cow like big game they don't stand much of a chance and I don't know how you fix that problem.


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## Unregistered4

Yes, these are truly different times...

Especially, when it comes to farmers and their efforts to become more and more self sufficient and profitable. The fifty-some acres next door just sold and the ambitious farmer that bought it cleared the fencerows around the parameter clean as a whistle and removed two that disected the middle portion. Which always came in handy to the birds escaping from the fifty six acres of grass out back. He probably picked up maybe two acres at the most, but to him...it's two acres he's paying taxes on...so he's going to make it productive. Can't really blame him much. One good look around the adjoining area and you can see the same thing happening elsewhere.


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## Steelheadfred

Unregistered4 said:


> Yes, these are truly different times...
> 
> Especially, when it comes to farmers and their efforts to become more and more self sufficient and profitable. The fifty-some acres next door just sold and the ambitious farmer that bought it cleared the fencerows around the parameter clean as a whistle and removed two that disected the middle portion. Which always came in handy to the birds escaping from the fifty six acres of grass out back. He probably picked up maybe two acres at the most, but to him...it's two acres he's paying taxes on...so he's going to make it productive. Can't really blame him much. One good look around the adjoining area and you can see the same thing happening elsewhere.


Every where, they are tiling the prairie pot hole region of North Dakota and South Dakota.

The worlds population is going to do nothing but grow, and we are the breadbasket of the world. It's sad but a reality, I think they've figured out ethanol does not work, which is which the price per bushel is down. 

I'm glad I'm personally investing in a new business next door to the biggest Agriculture University in the world. 

The future of Pheasants is going to be 100% pay to play, you either are wealthy enough to own some sections of land and manage it for wild pheasants or you'll pay to play on a preserve. An interesting discussion will become how this impacts grouse hunting and will pressure increase on the grouse woods where essentially commercial activity supports birds?

I have some theory's but if Brian wants this thread to continue this is a topic to expound upon.


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## WestCoastHunter

Steelheadfred said:


> The future of Pheasants is going to be 100% pay to play, you either are wealthy enough to own some sections of land and manage it for wild pheasants or you'll pay to play on a preserve..



Welcome to Europe. My Mom's cousin used to lease farm land with 5 other guys to do his pheasant hunting in Denmark. That's how the game gets played there and it's not cheap.


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## Unregistered4

Yep, pay to play is already happening...

I had a client out back in December, I'd been training his setter for the last couple years and he finally wanted to see him in action. He showed up without a vest or gun, so I hooked him up for a few dollars. Hey, the best things in life are free...and my dog training wouldn't be considered the best by any means. Granted, this client was only five years old at the time and my grandson, and he'd seen some of my setters in action...so his expectations weren't to high.

Things went pretty well, his setter, Otis, pointed shortly into the run. I made a flushing attempt, but produced no bird. I heard the bird moving through the grass to my left, so I released Otis. He took off and I was explaining to my client what had just happen and why we didn't produce a bird. I pointed over to where Otis had went, the direction of the previous noise in the grass was heading, which was a clump of cover inside the fencerow, and said, "That's where I would be if I was a pheasant."

Well, you guessed it...a roosters boiled out of the cover. Me, I've got the Smith broke open over my shoulder, shells in my pocket, cigar in my mouth and one hand pointing at the location Otis was on point, again. The bird rolls past us, left to right, twenty yards out, just as I'm slamming the Smith closed and smashing a cigar against my face. The first trigger is pulled just as the bird really hits its stride...and not a feather is ruffled. Which, doesn't surprise me much...since the stock of the gun is in my armpit. No second shot takes place.

We go on to hunt another thirty minutes or so, trudging through six inches of snow as we go. The client is now using his gun as a machete to clear a path through the weeds that rival his vertical stature. Luckily, its just his mom's old bb gun and it not loaded. We finally finish up the hunt and being somewhat a softy, I ended up waving the fee for the rental of the vest and bb gun...for a hug and a "I love you grandpa."

The kicker to the whole thing was...when we got back to the house, he said, "Grandpa, maybe I should shoot after you from now on."

Pretty bad, when a five year old even sees the need for a back up shooter for his grandpa...lol


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## Unregistered4

hehibrits said:


> To be sadly truthful, I would say 9 out of 10 rural Iowans don't care. I am sure the chamber and some business folk miss the army of orange. In the area my friends live in deer hunting $$ has more than replaced bird $$. Late goose season also keeps the motels and bars full. In almost 20 years of going there, I have hunted pheasant with one local. If they want a pheasant they will shoot it with a .22 off the combine. I have heard more complaints about trespassers, dogs in the beans, etc. than loss if revenue 100-1. It's tough seeing that the first few weeks of the season normally coincide with full on harvest and the last thing a farmer wants is people running terraces while they pick. Now throw in big dollar deer hunting that starts oct 1 and goes til jan 1 with the rut happening end of October and tell a farmer the woes of a pheasant hunter. They laugh. My buddy has two cabins he rents out to hunters, 10 years ago it was $50 a night there or $40 at the motel, 95% pheasant hunters. Now it is $100/night at the cabin and $60 per at the motel, 95% deer hinters. Plus the guiding/outfitting fees (access to ground) they never got from bird hunters. One thing we need to realize about farmers is that they are business people. Bottom line is all that matters to most. There is more money in corn and deer than grass an pheasant by a long shot.


Besides the up-front monies, you have to take into consideration crop damage. A deer walking down each row of corn picking ears as he goes...or the pheasant...picking leftover seed from the field that has already been harvested.

Which one is costing the farmer money or creating loses?

(Okay, this tablet wins...I can't stand it any longer...back to the lap top for typing...lol)


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## hehibrits

Unregistered4 said:


> Besides the up-front monies, you have to take into consideration crop damage. A deer walking down each row of corn picking ears as he goes...or the pheasant...picking leftover seed from the field that has already been harvested.
> 
> Which one is costing the farmer money or creating loses?
> 
> (Okay, this tablet wins...I can't stand it any longer...back to the lap top for typing...lol)


Funny you mention that, last time I was out we had this exact conversation. According to those in the know, the ***** are the corn eaters. They told me the ***** will eat more corn in a night than the deer will in weeks. Not saying deer don't do more damage than pheasants, but it's a fraction of what other critters do. Now take my dearly departed Sugar dog running roughshod through some dry soy beans chasing deer and birds, then we can talk about some crop damage &#128558; even with the deer, ****, etc, they yield around 220-260 bushels/acre. That's a lot if corn per section.


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## Unregistered4

Personally, I'd have no problem believing the ****/deer corn eating theory/opinions.

Funny story...

Many moons ago, a friend of mine, who lived in the city, had a farmer friend that gave him permission to hunt his place. One fall day, he gather a group of guys and headed over to the farmers place to chase pheasants. He'd called the night before and the farmer had said it was okay..."but, just stay out of the beans"...were the last words he spoke before he hung up the phone.

My buddy and his four friends, along with two labs that would still go one-fifty after a week of slimfast, hit the fields. They're making a final push through a field behind the farmer's house, about a quarter mile back when suddenly they see a chevy truck barreling through the field, the driver has it in the kitchen, my buddy said you could hear the four barrel kicking in as he drove through the field towards them. At one point he thought the truck was actually airborne as it crossed a ditchrow. The truck gets about twenty yards for them and slides to a stop, the farmer jumps out and if steam could come out a person's ears...it would have been. However, the only steam coming out of anything...was the stuff rolling out of the grill of his truck.

The farmer is getting ready to lay into these guys, thinking he doesn't know them, but sees my buddy and says..."I thought I told you to stay out of the beans."

He replies..."These are beans?" Seriously.

He said the farmer turned around, looked at the path he'd just made through his field, the steam rising from his truck, said nothing more, got in his truck and left...lol


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## HankVIII

Not sure what this means but I saw this icicle this morning:


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## hehibrits

HankVIII said:


> Not sure what this means but I saw this icicle this morning:


That is weird and very cool.


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## Unregistered4

Twelve roosters wondered past the house yesterday afternoon, through a snow covered picked corn field. So they're hanging on...so far. Sure hope this weather breaks soon, though.


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## turkeytamer41

I have seen more in the last two weeks then I've seen in years.


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## kingfisher2

Great pics...I too have seen more birds this year than I have in the last 10.

Marc


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## dmrbigeshott

Those pictures are awesome!


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## sylvan19

Saw a nice rooster on my way up to St Clair yesterday morning.


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## Unregistered4

My attempt at a flying pheasant...










I have to make them hold still before I can get them on film...lol














































A first trigger, second trigger afternoon.










oops...wrong chicken...limb instead of ditch.










The most handsome dog on the planet and his first ever ring-neck.


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## hehibrits

Unregistered4 said:


> My attempt at a flying pheasant...
> 
> 
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> I have to make them hold still before I can get them on film...lol
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> A first trigger, second trigger afternoon.
> 
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> oops...wrong chicken...limb instead of ditch.
> 
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> 
> The most handsome dog on the planet and his first ever ring-neck.




This dog put the ditch in ditch parrot. He aint pretty, and when you tell him he has cock breath, it's a compliment...


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## slammer

I've been seeing birds in the thumb almost daily for the past 2 months. The snow has them getting gravel at the road side. I just passed 9 birds on 24.


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## Unregistered4

Yep, they sure were searching for food today...seventeen across the road and then counted twelve of our way back from Lexington. Wasn't really even looking that hard, either. Even saw the most amount of turkeys I've seen in a long time. Even saw one tom all fanned out and displaying in front of a group of hens...boy, does he have a wait on his hands...lol


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## g&d

On the topic of going back to an 8 bird season limit I have to disagree. When it comes to pheasant populations it's all about habitat. Those that have one, have the other. If a land owner puts his time, money and efforts into his property and has an abundance of pheasants, he shouldn't be limited to only shooting 8 a year.
I leased 320 CRP acres for years that was loaded with pheasants. 20-30 roosters were shot every year there. There were 500 total CRP acres though. When all but 60 acres came out of CRP the numbers plummeted. I shot one rooster three years in a row there.
There are several pockets of land that property owners have managed and they shouldn't be punished to a season limit. I would defend the December season for the same reason. If they want to limit that to just public land I could agree with that.


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## Unregistered4

When it comes right down to it...how many folks out there are killing eight birds a year to begin with?

Opening day around here was like any other day...besides the three bullets the old Smith released out back.

The only way the DNR could even monitor such things would be to hand out eight leg tags or something with each small game licence. Other than that, how would they know if a person had already killed eight birds.

I believe you are right about monitoring your bird numbers on private land, based on the population you've been managing...or based on the amount of habitat they have access too. I believe micro-management on a personal level comes into play when dealing with micro-pockets of pheasant populations. Their existence can be fragile, however, even with a persons delicate supervision, conservationist ways and wishful thinking...uncontrollable outside influences can manipulate their livelihood.

On a positive note though...

While driving home from Almont yesterday, seven roosters were feeding at a bird feeder in someone's yard a few miles away from here...and one bird...one big a** bird actually...had tail feathers as long as a yard stick and maybe a vew inches more. I hope he catches a westerly wind and locks his wings...and makes it to this address by October 20th.


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## Steelheadfred

Brian, are you still against December grouse hunting, public or private land?

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## Unregistered4

Steelheadfred said:


> Brian, are you still against December grouse hunting, public or private land?


Granted, this discussion has been primarily about Michigan ring-neck pheasants, emblematic of the title, minus the bu**head that posted the two dead grouse picture. I really don't see what the two have to do with one another, late season grouse and pheasant hunting, private or public.

However...since you asked...and since you are probably frothing at the bit to get into a discussion with me about this...lol...I'll humor you.

Personally, regarding myself, meaning me, myself, a setter, an old shotgun and enough time. Yes, I'm against doing it myself (late season ruffed grouse hunting). Now, I have done it before and will continue if circumstances warrant the practice. Like this past season, hunted late season in your neck of the woods, because I'd broke my foot the third weekend of the season, missing basically my entire early season, and the dogs needed it...especially the pup Otis. However, I limit my take to one late season grouse...now. 

Oh, by the way...the one grouse I saw killed, late season, at what I believe to be a bird pointed by Deputy (pictured earlier in the most handsome dog on the planet picture)...was not done by my hands...or finger. Deputy was pointing a pair, both went out unharmed and unseen, we were about done anyhow, so we circled back the direction the two birds had gone, just walking the trail back to the truck, when suddenly, about a hundred or so yards from where we were when the two flushed, Deputy goes on point. We walk in and find the freshest remains of a dead grouse a person can find, still steaming. Not sure who did the kill'n..but my guess would be a hawk. No tracks in any direction of the crime scene. So, like one of the great UJ legends once said, "You don't have to kill a grouse to kill a grouse."

So, if you notice you're lacking one grouse in your neck of the woods this year...you can thank me and the Dep for that...lol

As far as anyone else doing it...like they say...as long as it's legal...why should I care. I know what I believe, ethically, and what I do should be good enough for me and I would also believe that as long as what I do is legal...it's nobody else's concerns. Plus, I'd rather watch a cock pheasant bust out of the crisp white snow, over a male or female grouse...any day of the week.

Oh, one more thing before I go...I find it odd that you would be willing to shorten the season on pheasant, no late season I believe you said earlier, when you can tell the difference between a rooster and a hen, and know exactly what you are killing, and not feel, somewhat, the same about ruffed grouse...when you can't tell the difference between the sexes with them. Heck, come to think of it...humans are getting the same way...lol

Anyway...hope I answered your question.


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## Opey

If I have the opportunity I will hunt partridge and pheasant late season. My brother and I have had this discussion many times. 
As far as pheasant go, u can literally keep track of your kills by the amount of roosters u see the next hunt and so far every season has started with more birds then the previous season. I hunt state land and there are no pheasant ranches any where around.
Finally I was in marine city today driving down king road. I saw 4 roosters and 3 hens in different fields. I truly believe pheasant are on the rebound, if they survive this winter.


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## Unregistered4

Eight years ago, when we first moved out here, I'd see a rooster and hen hanging out in the field nextdoor. Fast forward a couple years and we're seeing a few more. I'd run the dogs on them for bird contacts, but never killed a single rooster. After seeing a slight up-tick, I came up with the third rooster out rule, only shooting at the third bird, and finally killed a rooster one day. Went a couple more years without killing another, even though I was seeing more and more birds.

Then in 2013, on January 17th, while out splitting wood, me and the handsomest setter went for a walk and he pointed forty-five or fifty birds in a single point just before the road. To my surprise, seventy percent were hens. I wanted to go back and see if they were there this January 17th 2014, figuring they were there for some sort of family reunion or something last year, but the weather didn't allow it this year...lol

After seeing fifty birds last January...the third bird rule went out the window and I hunted as if it was 1972 again, broken foot or not. 

Well, kind of hunted that way...towards the end of the season...I was watching more than pulling the trigger.


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## Steelheadfred

> Anyway...hope I answered your question.


You did :lol: my old, well she probably would not appreciate being called old, a "former" NRM Professor used to limit the number of words we could include in a paper in an effort to do what she called "further concise critical thinking." Well she would have failed you despite your well thought out content. 



> Now, I have done it before and will continue if circumstances warrant the practice. Like this past season, hunted late season in your neck of the woods


Duke, Duke, is that you? Are you back? I have to hand it to you, our late season ended pretty early, lots of deep snow. We had a few days early in December, but I didn't make it out, I had a "meeting" in Naples Florida, it was glorious. SO if you hunted "my neck" of the woods in December, you are tuffer than I.



> Oh, one more thing before I go...I find it odd that you would be willing to shorten the season on pheasant, no late season I believe you said earlier, when you can tell the difference between a rooster and a hen, and know exactly what you are killing, and not feel, somewhat, the same about ruffed grouse...when you can't tell the difference between the sexes with them. Heck, come to think of it...humans are getting the same way...lol


Two thoughts: 1) I've grown bored with late season grouse hunting, it's just not as exciting as it once was, I'm generally short on time with a growing family and have had my fill earlier. I do miss going to KS in January though.

2) I would complete support reducing our Pheasant season, for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Habitat loss, habitat loss habitat loss. I see far more escape and winter cover available to Grouse that I do pheasants. I wil say it again, in 2004 the DNR reported our pheasant harvest around 136,000 birds, in 2012 they reported it at 25,000 birds. 

I've been reading all these reports about folks seeing lots of pheasants, they are on the rebound, bla, bla, bla, I wonder if they saw what we had in the early 2000's? I wonder if they realize what they are seeing because currently the pheasants that are left have no place to hide. 

I don't want to be the last guy to shoot the last bird off the only stitch of habitat in a 4 section area. 

I'm glad the birds around your place are doing so well, I wish my visit down south this year gave me hope, despite moving 50 birds a day, every hen that I watched fly off gave me pause. 

I don't feel that way when I watch a grouse rocket for a cedar swamp, or a big alder patch, or flight up into a group of pines.


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## Unregistered4

Yes, nowadays, hen grouse definitely has the upperhand on hen pheasant.

Odd, when I was in college, for a short time...I aced English, both 101 and 102, Creative Writing, Modern Vocabulary (which, may be consider ancient now...lol) and Theory of Language. However, I totally agree with your professor for writing within the context of a story or document (it didn't have the fancy name you used...back in the day...it was called...get-to-the-freak'n-point)...but here...if you don't explain everything thoroughly...sometimes twice...you get your a** handed to you.

I don't believe you'll be the one to shoot the last pheasant either. And, I've thought about what you suggest. The birds congregating in areas. Because, there was a similar situation when urban sprawl took place. However, it was short lived and birds disappeared totally in some places...and now they're coming back.

Anyway, time will tell...and hopefully we'll see a rooster crossing the road on locked wings until were all old and gray. Wait a minute...I guess I'm there already...lol


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## Steelheadfred

I guess what I'm saying is, grouse populations appear stable to me with increasing habitat, pheasant populations in Michigan and just about everywhere are on the decline across their entire range. That's if you believe the published stats. The loss of grass via crp programs is true. There is a life span to a field also, it needs maintenance or it will thin it
Out or revert to woodlands.

I truly wonder if my son, will ever kill a wild rooster.



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## turkeytamer41

Last couple of days


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## lazy8man

Turkeytamer,

Was that bird in the last shot eating those burdocks?

Chad


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## k9wernet

That last photo should be in a calendar


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## turkeytamer41

lazy8man said:


> Turkeytamer,
> 
> Was that bird in the last shot eating those burdocks?
> 
> Chad


Yes thats the second time i seen that this year


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## michgundog

k9wernet said:


> That last photo should be in a calendar


Agree!! Thanks for sharing Turkeytamer. 


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## michgundog

michgundog said:


> Agree!! Thanks for sharing Turkeytamer. Were these taken w/ a trail camera?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





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## turkeytamer41

michgundog said:


> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


No not a trail cam a canon 7D


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## Opey

Steelheadfred, I have no idea where u are but I can tell u in the last 3 years I have seen more pheasant in st Clair, sanilac, and Huron county then I have seen in the previous 25 years. My family have been dedicated bird hunters for at least 30 years. 
I continue to ask other hunters if they r seeing or hearing them and I would bet 8 out of 10 hunters have. Just about all of them say they haven't seen a pheasant in years.. 
This leads me to believe its not the cover that is the most important but a less polluted environment. One long deep ditch or thick fence row can provide cover for ALOT of birds. 


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## Unregistered4

Yeah, I believe a lot of folks cut their teeth in the thumb.

How many times during the dark hours of morning were spent riding north towards Deckerville, riding shotgun in my brothers 57 Chevy pickup with a setter named Buddy between us, I don't know? It's all turning gray now. Certain trips are remembered, but for the most part...time is erasing the majority.

That's why I suggest to anyone that wants to remember...take pictures or write it down.

I got one humorous story from those early days.

One afternoon, while heading for home, we saw two roosters standing along a fencerow. It was a picked bean field on both sides and we knew Buddy would never get these birds handled/pointed, so we parked on the opposite side of the fencerow and decided to sneak up from there and ambush them. Being as quiet as possible, we managed to get out of the truck, remove our shotguns from the truckbed and down the fencerow a good distance...when from off in the distance we heard the truck door squeaky hinges. Buddy had managed to push the handle somehow and was beelining it up the opposite side now. Sure enough, both roosters took wing and disappeared into the fading sunset. Buddy chased them about the same distance before tiring.

He was a pretty good bird dog usually, pointing numerous birds in his day. However, seeing those birds standing there just short-circuited his brain some...lol


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## Steelheadfred

I love hunting pheasant s, I love every part about it.

I wish at times it was more challenging, they are a simple bird compared to the king I now chase, with that said, more sleepless nights in anticipation of the clown bird, than the king for Me.

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## Unregistered4

Steelheadfred said:


> I wish at times it was more challenging, they are a simple bird compared to the king I now chase


Have you ever done it solo, pheasant hunting, with one dog and one gunner, in fragmented cover like we have here in Michigan, which gives the bird plenty of escape advantages, like through fencerows or wood lots? Granted, with a flushing breed it may be slightly easier than a pointing breed, if one is waiting for everything to fall into place correctly. However, it can still be challenging. 

From what I've seen of your pheasant hunts, it seems you party hunt more than you do when grouse hunting...I may be wrong (there's always a first for everything...lol). However, I read/hear you talk a lot about short after-work hunts where you go out for grouse by yourself, so that in itself, to me, would make grouse hunting seem more challenging. Solo ruffed grouse hunting is probably, in most respects, still more difficult than ringneck pheasants...but it can be in the proximity. 

I believe ringnecks are much more difficult for a bird dog to get pointed than the lowly, stop and hide like a dimwitted barnyard chicken...ruffed grouse. Heck, when any of my dogs were pups...they'd handle their share of grouse, all pointing birds in their first full season. But, wild Michigan ringnecks...not so much. The ringneck pheasant is the most worthy and challenging adversary that a bird dog will ever face, here in Michigan, hence making him the king of game birds.

Now, when you narrow down the discussion to the shooting aspects of both birds, especially birds at similar range...yes, getting a pheasant on the ground is probably somewhat easier on account of cover type. But, killing him is a whole nother matter...lol. And that is where a good retreiving dog shines. I few times this past season I wished mine were a whole lot better than they are...and truth be told...a couple times I wished my old springer spaniel Norton (the second) was still pushing oxygen through his nostrils instead of pushing up daisies.

I won't even go into great detail when discussing the two...concerning their will to survive. Ruffed grouse pale in comparsion and again...this in itself negates their worthness as being a true king. Heck, I've seen song birds put up a greater fight against a cooper hawk.

Sad, but true...lol


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## Unregistered4

After reading my last response...if you want challenging...maybe you should get a pointing breed...then you'll understand challenging...lol


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## Steelheadfred

Hunted lots and lots of pheasants alone in college, not sure I'd consider spreading two or three guys out across a section of land out west "group" hunting.


My contention is as follows, where you have the appropriate habitat you have pheasants in the pheasant range.

How many folks went out west and killed three Pheasants a day? How many folks go up north and kill three grouse a day?

They are big and they stink which makes dog work easier, the only time they are more difficult on the wing is on cold western days when the wind is really whipping. Grouped up pheasants are harder to kill than singles. 

What makes Pheasants so much easier is the habitat, grouse use a far more diverse habitat than pheasants. During hunting season finding access is to land is more challenging than actually finding pheasants. 

As far as getting a pointing dog, well horses for courses and I don't see Bobwhites and Sharptail numbers exploding across our landscape.


Michigan Ringnecks are the easiest of all the Ringnecks I've hunted in NoDak, SoDak, Iowa, KS, far and away the easiest, maybe also the biggest are Michigan birds. They are easy because they are not found in large numbers, they are easy because they are born and die on the same piece of ground, escape habitat is limited, to flush out of their one grass field they know is to expose themselves to a pile of other predators. They are slower fliers than their western cousins having not to deal constantly with the prairie breezes and frankly the cover they live in is not typically as heavy as out west or as diverse either.




> I won't even go into great detail when discussing the two...concerning their will to survive. Ruffed grouse pale in comparsion and again...this in itself negates their worthness as being a true king. Heck, I've seen song birds put up a greater fight against a cooper hawk.


I always here this from the point and shoot crowd, they capitalize on the three cupcake looks a year old shag pointed  run through a couple three four plus dozen ruffs a year and I bet cripple losses would be pretty equal to that of shooting roostes, also extend out your grouse shots to 30-45 yards like many crippled roosters are shot at, and only shoot grouse after October 20th."Pretty sure I rocked that bird."


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## k9wernet

It's a pretty silly debate, IMO - people should hunt what they like. But because I started it, here's my $.02.

First of all, I believe grouse get an unfair reputation as lightweights, due in part to the terrain they're found in. You get a quick glimpse at a bird, take your shot, and your natural conclusion is "I rocked that bird" (it's dead on the ground) or "I can't believe I missed that bird" (it's nowhere to be found). I guess a third possible conclusion is, "wow, through this cover, there's no way I got that bird." I guess my point is, unless you have a good, clear look at the bird for several seconds after the shot (which is NEVER going to happen in the grouse woods), how can you REALLY know whether it's a clean hit, a wounded animal, or a clean miss, unless you're holding a dead bird in your hand? And based on the number of dead birds I've found, and crippled birds I've encountered, my conclusion is they're hardier than they get credit for. And based on some pheasants and chukar I've seen barely react to a shot, then drop a leg a few seconds later, then fold a few seconds after that... I guess I'll remain open to the possibility that grouse do the same from time to time.

Second off all, I think grouse are a more challenging game bird if for no other reason than they're found in more challenging terrain. I've said it before, but it takes a certain love of punishment to hunt grouse where they live. Now, I've chased pheasants through swampy cat tails and nasty autumn olive, but that's the exception not the rule -- for the most part pheasant hunting is a walk in the park... or at least a cultivated grass field.

Third, Brian, you allege that a pheasant is more challenging due to the bird's proclivity to run. In my experience, pheasants are going to put up with more pressure from the dog than a grouse will. In fact they require that pressure if you want them to stay put. Grouse are going to react to pressure by flushing. So when you put an inexperienced pheasant dog on pheasants, you're going to get more runners. When you put an inexperienced grouse dog on grouse, you're going to get flushes. I don't think one situation implies more challenge -- just a different challenge and different results. Of course, if you hunt your pointer in gun range (why would you) and he's blowing up birds in front of you... maybe the game doesn't seem quite as challenging.

And I'll reemphasize a point that Fritz made. If you hit the grouse woods for the first few weeks of the season and that's it, you might get the impression that grouse are cupcakes for the dog. If you head back out when the leaves are down, there's snow on the ground and the birds have run in with a few dogs and hunters, it's a different game.

All that said, it's a matter of opinion and preference. If I could walk out my front door, turn left, and walk into a pheasant field; or turn right and walk into the grouse woods, you can bet I'd never turn left. I do enjoy hunting pheasants, just not as much as grouse. Hit me up in a few years when I'm old, tired, grumpy, achy... maybe I'll be singing a different tune.


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## Unregistered4

Fritz,

Did you find them easy back when you were in school, too? 

Solo...means solo...I don't understand what is so difficult to understand about that one. Anything more than one I would consider not being solo.

I'm confused...you mention the number of folks that go west and shoot three pheasants, (implying that it's easy...I'm assuming) and in the same breath you talk about how much harder they are than Michigan birds. So, if that is the case...folks should be killing Michigan birds right and left when they find them. I have no experience hunting western birds, but I'm still talking about hunting solo when I talk about improving the experience, here or there. Maybe, Michigan pheasants are easier to kill than western birds, that's not my point. Finding them is more difficult with a single dog and a single hunter, which he can be married...don't want any confusion here...lol, it just adds to the hunt is all, I would imagine in both places, but then again I can't say for sure about out west. The searching for them is the hunting aspect...killing just comes along with the territory.

Finding grouse is easier in my opinion, for me and the dogs, for no particular reason, I just find it that way.

I didn't quite understand your last comment...so I'm going to pass on that one. Unless you're trying to say grouse are equal to pheasants in their "will to survive"...if that's the case...then we'll just have to disagree on that one. I've witness on several occasions where a mature grouse had a few bb's in them and lay on the ground with their wings spread as if they'd been hit by a semi...whereas...I've witness on several occasions where a roosters was lambasted from two different directions, by two different gunners and still has the tenacity and temperament to get up, shake it off...and head for the yonder hills. I've maybe witness that one time in my entire life, while hunting these bullet proof grouse you speak of. Heck, we chased one rooster this year that had pieces of its guts falling out along its trail...over two hundred yards and we never found it because it went onto posted land. Please, point me in the direction of any ruffed grouse that can do that.


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## WestCoastHunter

Out here grouse are perceived, rightly so, as being dumb as posts. That said I think that reputation is more attributable to blue grouse than ruffed grouse. I had a conversation about this with a guy from Tennessee who lives out here as well, he's hunted grouse in MI too, and the conclusion we've come to is if ruffed grouse are dumb here it's because of less pressure. In Michigan people want dogs to hit cover and ignore everything in between. Out here, west of the mountains, you are essentially in rain forest, you are always in the cover, and that keeps guys out more which means the birds get less pressure and mainly become road shot deer/elk camp food. 


Pheasants, they are less brutal to hunt in my opinion, but they don't die easy. I can still recall an occasion in eastern WA, back in the 90's, where a rooster shot with a twelve gauge that had supposedly had its neck rung started going into death throws in the trunk of my friend's girlfriend's new Geo Metro 30 minutes later. We had already made the car a mud pie, it got a lot worse after the feathers settled inside the car. Glad I didn't have to explain that. Ha


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## Jager Pro

WestCoastHunter said:


> Pheasants, they are less brutal to hunt in my opinion, but they don't die easy. I can still recall an occasion in eastern WA, back in the 90's, where a rooster shot with a twelve gauge that had supposedly had its neck rung started going into death throws in the trunk of my friend's girlfriend's new Geo Metro 30 minutes later. We had already made the car a mud pie, it got a lot worse after the feathers settled inside the car. Glad I didn't have to explain that. Ha


Jan 1st of this year I shot a rooster, when I found him he was still alive so I picked him up and twisted his neck. When I twisted it he stopped flapping and closed his eyes. Didn't flap or move again until about 45 mins later when he had a spasm in the back of my vest. I know nerves still have some power after death but I would've thought that it would be closer to death.


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## Unregistered4

Kevin,

I did not start hunting grouse yesterday...and usually, on an average, put thirty some days in the woods after them. So, we can throw out the "if you hunt the first weekend of the season" statement. Believe me, I've seen my fair share of birds hit the hard-pack and know which one gets up running. And, there are plenty of times I've watched a ruffed grouse fly fifty yards or more, through a valley or along a wood lot or it just simply makes a bad decision and flies down a trail...even during the early season...so never getting a glimspe for more than a few yards...really?

I agree, folks should hunt what they enjoy...and I enjoy grouse hunting...but my point was...roosters could and can be as difficult and challenging as the next bird. How often does a hen grouse get left behind as bait for a gun dog...while the cock bird gets away...you'll never know...because you can't tell the difference until the bird lays dead in your hand. In the pheasant field, it happens a lot, hens get left behind by their male counterparts for the dogs to point...and meanwhile, Mr. Rooster takes flight just out of gun range. It's all about taking advantage of separation, regardless of species. Grouse can just do it more easily, considering the cover type. Wild pheasants do it with their legs, regardless of the dog and its experience that is in hot pursuit. Seen it to many times too second guess my logic. Roosters run, plain and simple. While on the otherhand, I've witness ruffed grouse sit along side the truck as I'm unloading the dogs...because their instinct is to hide, not move and hopefully whatever is bad that is about to happen...doesn't. Roosters don't wait around for such things...they hide as an absolute last result.

Now, if you string out a couple guys/gunners on each side of you, add a blocker at the end of the field...then...yes...pheasant hunting is somewhat easier. Kind of like you see in a lot of videos nowadays. You'll notice that they have a couple dogs on the ground, several gunners...and sure they are moving birds...cause they have them so confused about escape routes...they just flat-out win. But, if you grab your dog and hit the fields by yourself...it can be challenging...in my opinion. Then again...maybe I just suck at it...lol

Regardless of what you believe, as long as you are enjoying it...more power to ya!


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## Opey

Why do we do this as sportsmen? It does not matter what u r chasing but the fact that u r the one doing it, it has to be the best. For instance, I love bass fishing and my buddy loves walleye. He is always questioning me on why bass. He says they bite on anything. Walleye are the only fish worth chasing..
Back on the birds. I must be doing something wrong! I VERY RARELY have got a pheasant in a "easy" field. If it's not waist high and thick I don't bother. Even in that type of cover I'm still doing a 100 yrd dash catching up to the point, releasing him to find and point again and repeat..
Now for pats. It is my experience that they r learning to run also. When they do flush they are 15-20 yards away from the point. Again I hunt thick cover unless I find a oak ridge along a thick swamp. For the most part it is also a good hard hunt.
I LOVE THEM BOTH but prefer pheasant. Not that they are harder or easier to hunt but I love to hear them cackle in the morning, evening and when they flush. There's also something about walking in the field watching your dog work while the sun breaks the horizon and then watch it set again in the evening.
Who am I to say that one of Gods gifts is better than the other.


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## Unregistered4

Blame it on Fritz and Kevin...they brought up the king theory...lol

But, seriously.

I enjoy both and wouldn't give up one for the other...well, maybe...but I'll just leave it at that...lol

Personally, I enjoy grouse hunting after the birds have been educated some and pressured to the point they start making different decisions, about staying or leaving. Hunting stupid birds bores me. Same goes for pheasants, I'll only take out a good sized rooster. Young of the year get a free pass, unless it's over a young dog.

And, although we have disagreed some...I'm having a good time discussing this stuff. Plus, any talk on here about real bird hunting is nice.


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## Steelheadfred

Opey, don't read too much into it, Brian, Kevin, and myself all are comfortable with debate. 

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## Unregistered4

Steelheadfred said:


> Opey, don't read too much into it, Brian, Kevin, and myself all are comfortable with debate.


You're reading my mind...I was going to write something similar when I returned with my coffee, although, maybe using bigger, fancier words than you...lol

Yes, the debate will continue. Plus, without it...we will never overtake the spaniel topic.


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## RecurveRx

I have found pheasants in MI to be easier to kill than any of their western brethren. I'm not talking toughness. I think they're the same physically. I just mean to get one in the air and shoot one is easier. That said, I have also found them to be far more difficult to get pointed. Probably for the same reasons. 

I like pheasant hunting. But unless things change, my western trips will continue to be for prairie grouse. 






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## 2ESRGR8

We used to kill pheasants with our bb guns when I was a kid. I think the blue jays were tougher back then. When the snow was deep enough you could walk right up to them and pop em. I'm not sure we even considered them gamebirds.


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## Opey

I was not getting to excited! Like I said my buddy and I do it over fish. My brothers and I do it over dogs and the king thing. It just cracks me up and I don't know if it's more of just liking to argue and poke at each other or just being competitive. 


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## Opey

As far as the western birds being tougher, I have no doubt they are. We joke that they are wearing Kevlar. In michigan we just use high brass #5. Out west we found we need to use #5 nitros.


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## Unregistered4

Uh oh...the doors been opened...as far as...what shell kills roosters better. This should be good for a few pages...lol

This past season, I used 2.5, oz. load, sixes...and pick my shots very, very extra-ordinarily carefully...since the barrels have been opened up some.

Next year, with the new-old L.C. Smith, I will be using 2.75, oz. and an eighth load, or more, sixes and fives...it's choked full and fuller...so lead will be a flying.

Since the warm up, my new typical day starts with...running three or four roosters out from under the bird feeder, scaring the rabbits away (but with my face...this is an easy task) and watching out for the dorky possum that been walking around the yard...so the dogs won't chase it.

Heard a red-winged black bird today, a first.

Spring...maybe?


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## troutchops

k9wernet;5034114
All that said said:


> If you're in the right location, you can walk straight out the back door and do both.


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## dauber

2.5 and 2.75 oz loads? What gauge you shooting?? Sounds like a punt gun?

As far as my pheasant loads...I had real good luck with 9/8 oz 7's going 1475fps in 12ga. and 1oz 6's going 1350 in 20ga.

Oh forgot...7/8oz 7.5's in 28ga too.


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## hehibrits

troutchops said:


> If you're in the right location, you can walk straight out the back door and do both.











You mean like this?

All game birds are survivors in their niche, and I like the unique challenge each offers. There is no doubt the most difficult upland game bird to mortally wound and recover to the bag is a wild pheasant west of the Mississippi and north of 80, no question. The hardest game bird to point, flush, and shoot is the ruffed grouse, no question.


----------



## Unregistered4

troutchops said:


> If you're in the right location, you can walk straight out the back door and do both.


But, Chris...wouldn't he have to split in half to turn both ways...?

But seriously...

I imagine it could be done in the thumb, though; doing both. That would be kind of neat if you limited out on grouse, woodcock and pheasants all during the same hunt. Or just took one of each...being somewhat more realistic.


----------



## hehibrits

Unregistered4 said:


> But, Chris...wouldn't he have to split in half to turn both ways...?
> 
> But seriously...
> 
> I imagine it could be done in the thumb, though; doing both. That would be kind of neat if you limited out on grouse, woodcock and pheasants all during the same hunt. Or just took one of each...being somewhat more realistic.


The grand slam in the thumb for me is a pheasant, quail, grouse, and woodcock in a trip. I have bagged three of the four solo and in between my dad and myself have bagged all four in a day. I miss the quail.


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## Unregistered4

dauber said:


> 2.5 and 2.75 oz loads? What gauge you shooting?? Sounds like a punt gun?


Hey now...there's some comas in between some of that...lol

2.5...translates into chambered two and a half. 

2.75...translates into chambered two and three quarter.


----------



## Unregistered4

hehibrits said:


> There is no doubt the most difficult upland game bird to mortally wound and recover to the bag is a wild pheasant west of the Mississippi and north of 80, no question.


I bet there's some chukar hunters out west that would disagree with you...

And how hard a western pheasant is to kill...really has nothing to do with Michigan pheasants being killed...especially, in comparison to Michigan ruffed grouse. Where would you rate the two?


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## troutchops

hehibrits said:


> The grand slam in the thumb for me is a pheasant, quail, grouse, and woodcock in a trip. I have bagged three of the four solo and in between my dad and myself have bagged all four in a day. I miss the quail.


Very nice!


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## dauber

Unregistered4 said:


> Hey now...there's some comas in between some of that...lol
> 
> 2.5...translates into chambered two and a half.
> 
> 2.75...translates into chambered two and three quarter.


Gotcha. Must of missed them with my speed reading!


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## jesseb

Unregistered4 said:


> But, Chris...wouldn't he have to split in half to turn both ways...?
> 
> But seriously...
> 
> I imagine it could be done in the thumb, though; doing both. That would be kind of neat if you limited out on grouse, woodcock and pheasants all during the same hunt. Or just took one of each...being somewhat more realistic.


If I could only shoot I would've been able to complete the task of one of each last year. Went out quick to my woodcock honey hole, just to work the dog out of some over abundant energy which caused him to be less then a good listener while hunting pheasants. Well within about ten minutes we had our limit of woodcock and were heading back to the van when copper locked on point again, I went to flush what I assumed to be a woodcock and to my astonishment it was a grouse, which I personally have only ever seen a handful in the thumb, and never in Verona. Well once the shock wore off I decided I should probably shoot and..... Well you could say there was some words mumbled under my breath I wouldn't want my kids to hear! We went back to the van, drove a mile and a half down the road, and entered the first pheasant field. I probably made it about twenty feet past the ditch and copper locked on point, a nice rooster went up and the old Stevens single shot finished it off. After that I decided not to press my luck any further and gladly walked back to the van and locked that trip on the memory bank as one of the best yet.


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## Opey

The best I have ever done was a rooster out Verona and then 2 grouse out of the Minden swamp in the same day. 
I do dream of a limit of pats and 2 roosters in the same day. I love my dog working woodcock but I don't shoot them. I think they taste terrible


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## jesseb

Opey said:


> The best I have ever done was a rooster out Verona and then 2 grouse out of the Minden swamp in the same day.
> I do dream of a limit of pats and 2 roosters in the same day. I love my dog working woodcock but I don't shoot them. I think they taste terrible
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Well just shoot em anyway and I'll eat them I love them for breakfast wrapped in bacon!


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## Steelheadfred

Well ole been doing this forty years Brian thinks pheasants are every bit as challenging as grouse to kill.

So here is a 100% do it yourself public land January 13 out west pheasant hunt. Birds that have been hunted for three months, last week of the season, ten am start 5pm finish. Going in blind, two guys limited every day. I'm pretty sure there is no way these two guys kill 30 grouse in five days the last week of December in Michigan, even if they had low snow.

Watch "Pheasant Hunting 2013" on YouTube





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## Unregistered4

jesseb said:


> Well just shoot em anyway and I'll eat them I love them for breakfast wrapped in bacon!


Yeah, cooked right...they are the best!

Fritz...I have no idea what your u-tube video has to do with Michigan pheasants...can you please focus on the topic of the thread.


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## Steelheadfred

Unregistered4 said:


> Yeah, cooked right...they are the best!
> 
> Fritz...I have no idea what your u-tube video has to do with Michigan pheasants...can you please focus on the topic of the thread.


My bad.

I'd just gotten back from Alaska, where I lost 30 pounds guiding, really trying to stay warm, wanted to get that out before you congratulate me on beating a tape worm, sad thing is I'm not that far off right now.

After class, Ottawa county wild rooster, my parents dog that lived with me that fall. Remember her fondly, tail went in circles while on scent.



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## RecurveRx

Are you medicated?


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## Unregistered4

That doesn't even look like you...are you sure that's you?


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## Opey

Dang it steelhead, I have been content with this forum but now as soon as we loose a foot of snow I'm grabbing my dog and camera and hitting my pheasant field.. Sweet video..


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## jesseb

Steelheadfred said:


> Well ole been doing this forty years Brian thinks pheasants are every bit as challenging as grouse to kill.
> 
> So here is a 100% do it yourself public land January 13 out west pheasant hunt. Birds that have been hunted for three months, last week of the season, ten am start 5pm finish. Going in blind, two guys limited every day. I'm pretty sure there is no way these two guys kill 30 grouse in five days the last week of December in Michigan, even if they had low snow.
> 
> Watch "Pheasant Hunting 2013" on YouTube
> Pheasant Hunting 2013 - YouTube
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


You can't really compare hunting michigan pheasants to South Dakota. The only reason these guys can go to South Dakota and kill their limits is sheer population numbers. I would be hard pressed to believe that they could come limit out here like they did out there. So it becomes not about the hardiness or smarts of the pheasant, but purely a numbers game. I think it's no different with grouse, I was fortunate enough to live in Gaylord for five years and just moved back to the thumb two years ago. I hunted Grouse hard when I lived up there and numbers were high, I didn't think they were hard to hunt at all, in fact I thought they were kind of stupid. However when I went up this year with lower numbers I thought thy were much more of a challenge and it was a blast. I do believe it's hard to match wits with a pheasant. Especially with pointing dogs, the birds are ten steps ahead of you, when your car door shuts they already know where they are going to give you the slip, and if you shoot like me then there's the dilemma of actually killing the bird if you do get a shot. For some reason I shot like 70% on woodcock last year and about 20% on pheasants, it was simply aweful.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Go back in this thread, watch the hunting ghosts video. That's one shy of a two day limit, and I wiffed a gimme, this was dec 13.

My point is you can go to a great pheasant state and limit the last week of the season, you can't go to a great grouse state Michigan and kill 30 in the peak of the cycle the last week. 

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## Opey

Ya, I watched it the other day. That's a sweet one also and did turn on the gas but this last video lit the flame for whatever reason. Could be that I'm just dying to get out. 


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## turkeytamer41

Some of the other Pheasant hunter I've seen in the last week.










The hawk on the rooster and the eagle are from today the red tail was on a hen a few days ago


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## Unregistered4

I told my wife the other day I thought I had seen an eagle flying by.

What is that first bird, looks like a crow color wise but the beak looks more hawk like.

Great pictures.


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## turkeytamer41

Unregistered4 said:


> I told my wife the other day I thought I had seen an eagle flying by.
> 
> What is that first bird, looks like a crow color wise but the beak looks more hawk like.
> 
> Great pictures.


Only seen him once its some kind of hawk.


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## turkeytamer41

Unregistered have you ever seen this guy on your road?


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## Unregistered4

turkeytamer41 said:


> Unregistered have you ever seen this guy on your road?


Several times, we named him old blacky. He wasn't always that color, he went through a bad case of the mange, actually didn't think he was going to make it at one point, he looked so sickly, but he did...and he is now blacker than before.

I'll have to do some research on that hawk, thanks for the second picture. I've probably seen him from a distance but just assumed it was a crow. But, now that I think about it, yesterday on the way home from work, while just north of Armada I watched a large black colored bird fly low along a picked corn field, watched it for a pretty good distance, and remember thinking to myself...boy that bird sure doesn't fly like a crow. Much more powerful, skimming along just a foot or so off the ground. Crows kind of fly lazily.

If those kills were on my road, old Mr. Redtail is just enjoying a free meal. If someone was to do a post-mortem on them...they'd probably find teeth marks from a german wirehaired, a twisted neck and that the bodies were moved to that location, so the said german wirehaired wouldn't drag their carcass into the house again. Just for any of you folks that like to do CSI work...lol

The neighbor, same guy that gave me the injured hen, was telling me that the birds are sleeping along side his house, between a large snow drift and foundation, after feeding in his apple tree...and the dogs are catching them. I said, "***, maybe you should hit a couple pans together, to warn the birds before letting out the dogs."

These birds are super stressed right now, we've actually had them on the side deck eating burnt toast I'd thrown out there the other day, okay, so I'm not the greatest cook...lol. I have to scare them out of the yard so I can release the hounds, they only go about twenty yards and stand around waiting for me to kennel the dogs back up. After I do, minutes later the birds are back in the yard. It's funny watching the dogs watch them...they just can't understand why we aren't going after them. I believe they would all become poacher, like the lowly germans nextdoor, if I wasn't around...lol


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## Unregistered4

>


Thanks, for this picture, too. It's evidence.

I'm getting tired of coming in the house and telling my wife I think I just saw an eagle fly overhead, and her saying, "Well, sure you did dear, but don't get so excited, you just sit down in your chair and I'll bring you your Geritol."

That old owl you got on film now, him and I go way back and have crossed paths on several occasions...he's a stone-cold killer.


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## Unregistered4

Common Black-Hawk, Buteogallus anthracinus, 20-23" (51-58 cm). A stocky black bird of prey with broad wings and a broad white band across the tail; cere and legs yellow, latter visible in flight. When soaring, holds its wings flat...

Never heard of or seen one before...interesting.


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## dauber

Unregistered4 said:


> Common Black-Hawk, Buteogallus anthracinus, 20-23" (51-58 cm). A stocky black bird of prey with broad wings and a broad white band across the tail; cere and legs yellow, latter visible in flight. When soaring, holds its wings flat...
> 
> Never heard of or seen one before...interesting.


Wow didn't know CBH came this far north. Musta caught some thermals with those strong south winds.


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## Unregistered4

dauber said:


> Wow didn't know CBH came this far north. Musta caught some thermals with those strong south winds.


The flying with locked wings as it flew across the field was what caught my eye and made me wonder what it was, knowing/assuming it wasn't a crow. I can't believe "turkeytamer41" got a picture of one. Good stuff...well, unless they dine on pheasants...lol


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## dauber

Unregistered4 said:


> The flying with locked wings as it flew across the field was what caught my eye and made me wonder what it was, knowing/assuming it wasn't a crow. I can't believe "turkeytamer41" got a picture of one. Good stuff...well, unless they dine on pheasants...lol


I'm sure coming from AZ poor CBH is quite hungry.


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## turkeytamer41

This ones from the first time i seen him

This ones from today a little to far away


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## turkeytamer41

Unregistered4 said:


> Several times, we named him old blacky. He wasn't always that color, he went through a bad case of the mange, actually didn't think he was going to make it at one point, he looked so sickly, but he did...and he is now blacker than before.
> 
> I'll have to do some research on that hawk, thanks for the second picture. I've probably seen him from a distance but just assumed it was a crow. But, now that I think about it, yesterday on the way home from work, while just north of Armada I watched a large black colored bird fly low along a picked corn field, watched it for a pretty good distance, and remember thinking to myself...boy that bird sure doesn't fly like a crow. Much more powerful, skimming along just a foot or so off the ground. Crows kind of fly lazily.
> 
> If those kills were on my road, old Mr. Redtail is just enjoying a free meal. If someone was to do a post-mortem on them...they'd probably find teeth marks from a german wirehaired, a twisted neck and that the bodies were moved to that location, so the said german wirehaired wouldn't drag their carcass into the house again. Just for any of you folks that like to do CSI work...lol
> 
> The neighbor, same guy that gave me the injured hen, was telling me that the birds are sleeping along side his house, between a large snow drift and foundation, after feeding in his apple tree...and the dogs are catching them. I said, "***, maybe you should hit a couple pans together, to warn the birds before letting out the dogs."
> 
> These birds are super stressed right now, we've actually had them on the side deck eating burnt toast I'd thrown out there the other day, okay, so I'm not the greatest cook...lol. I have to scare them out of the yard so I can release the hounds, they only go about twenty yards and stand around waiting for me to kennel the dogs back up. After I do, minutes later the birds are back in the yard. It's funny watching the dogs watch them...they just can't understand why we aren't going after them. I believe they would all become poacher, like the lowly germans nextdoor, if I wasn't around...lol


Both those bird were killed by the hawks the one in the pic. the rooster was still alive and if your east of the guy with the GWPs then it was right across the road from your house.
The red tail that killed the hen didn't what get off the bird when I stopped it kept coming back at me in fact their was a pair of them. I just drove by 
the same spot ten min. earlier their was 15 to 20 pheasants there. So I went home got the camera


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## turkeytamer41

Did a little research on the black hawk and came up with a Morph rough legged hawk


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## Unregistered4

turkeytamer41 said:


> Both those bird were killed by the hawks the one in the pic. the rooster was still alive and if your east of the guy with the GWPs then it was right across the road from your house.
> The red tail that killed the hen didn't what get off the bird when I stopped it kept coming back at me in fact their was a pair of them. I just drove by
> the same spot ten min. earlier their was 15 to 20 pheasants there. So I went home got the camera


Yep, there was five roosters hanging around our place, traveling together, four days ago (four young'ns and a older bird), then three...now one. I thought that red osier looked familiar in that picture...and those three roosters were in there a couple days ago...darn it.

They have truly taken a beating over the last week...


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## Unregistered4

turkeytamer41 said:


> Did a little research on the black hawk and came up with a Morph rough legged hawk


Yep, now that you say that...it fits. Went and did a little more research and just the way the two stand (black and morph rough legged), size and the length of their legs are somewhat different. And, their ranges are so different, too. Plus, your second flying picture showed the underside better. Good stuff.

We'll continue the "twenty questions" since I guessed your truck color...

Second question...do you know a guy that has a dog named Roscoe?


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## turkeytamer41

Don't know no dog named Roscoe


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## Unregistered4

turkeytamer41 said:


> Don't know no dog named Roscoe


Hmmmm...that blows my theory to pieces. I have a friend in Gaylord (with a dog named Roscoe) that gets pictures of our pheasants all the time from a guy he knows that lives around here...thought it might be you.

From the very beginning of this topic I believed you were taking pictures of our birds. Then you finally posted the one with the red barns through the woods behind a bunch of birds feeding...bingo...smoking gun...and the brick house photo was another clincher. A lot of times I think I recognized the trees, too.


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## dauber

turkeytamer41 said:


> Did a little research on the black hawk and came up with a Morph rough legged hawk


Yup. Dark phase rough legged. 
Hawks in flight is a great book for learning to ID hawks.


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## Unregistered4

Audubon site is a good one, too. I was just there reading up on Mr. Rough Legs...and it say when he's in his winter range, here, he feeds on upland birds...

Just what we need...


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## jesseb

I have to say I'm a little freaked out about Verona right now, I spent a lot of time the past few evenings after work walking a lot of good ground that should be holding birds right now, and not even a track, I was very hopeful with all the hens we saw last year that this year would be good, but right now I'm very nervous about it, hopefully I'm just not looking in the right spots


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## Opey

Had 8 of these on the st Clair river this winter









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## Opey

I don't want to get off the subj. but I love this photo. It is the imprint of a hawk that snagged a squirrel.









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## jesseb

Opey said:


> I don't want to get off the subj. but I love this photo. It is the imprint of a hawk that snagged a squirrel.
> View attachment 59523
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Hey that's funny I got one of those pics too






but I'm guessing this one was a mouse


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## Opey

It's amazing what u find when u r not in front of the tv.


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## jesseb

They don't have enough upland tv shows to keep me occupied so I don't watch much of it


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## turkeytamer41

Opey said:


> It's amazing what u find when u r not in front of the tv.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Or computer


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## Unregistered4

Yeah, talk about a bird that is on a slight up-tick...seeing eagles everywhere you look nowadays in St.Clair, Lapeer counties. Even saw two down in Macomb county where I work.

It's funny you mention the squirrels, I'd taken my wife for a ride Sunday (she's been sick and after being locked up in the house with me and eating my fine cooking, hence the burned toast on the deck statement...she gets a little cranky...imagine that...lol) and we were talking about the same thing. There was six or seven squirrel out in a big old picked corn field, digging down through the six or seven inches of snow. They were so far out there I was looking at them through binoculars...and we talked about what easy pickings they would be for a hawk. They stood out like a beacon out there.

Another thing I find funny...I get my a** beat-down earlier in this topic for feeding the pheasants out in the field, where I went to great lengths to make sure it was in a safe spot for them to get too, and afterwards I watched the location for weeks without seeing any repercussions. But, I stopped feeding them on account of...just incase the beat-downers were right.

Then the weather breaks again and the birds are so hunger they're in our yard, the neighbors yards eating anything they can get their beaks on...and now...they are getting picked off right and left. I think the revolutionary war saw less of a massacre...lol

Thinking back, I can only remember one other year where I found evidence of kills. It was probably eight years ago, found two hens and two roosters. It's been pretty uneventful since then. Well, until now. We went through a big string on turkey kills for a while, coyotes from the evidence left behind. But, that has really tapered off lately. Not really seeing the numbers of turkeys anymore to begin with. Found a dead redtail once, figured old ****** owl got him from the evidence left in the snow (or maybe another redtail). Looked as through he had pounced on something...and then he got pounced on. So, like they say..."what goes around, comes around"...lol

Yeah, it is amazing the stuff you can see if you get out of doors. However, televison is also very important...without it...how would we have ever known that the worse bachelor in televison history, ever, was around. Caught that earth-scattering information on the local news last night...of all places. For years and years, we had a twenty inch scene television (something finally happened to it, which I think my wife had something to do with it...lol). So, I broke down and bought her a big scene 32 inch. Which, I guess by today standards...that ain't so big.


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## Unregistered4

turkeytamer41 said:


> Or computer


I don't know...without this computer...we'd have never seen your great pictures!

I think you should seen them in to PF, and maybe they would use them in their magaizne. And then, I'd know some celebrity pheasants...even though they may be in a redtails stomach now.


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## michgundog

jesseb said:


> I have to say I'm a little freaked out about Verona right now, I spent a lot of time the past few evenings after work walking a lot of good ground that should be holding birds right now, and not even a track, I was very hopeful with all the hens we saw last year that this year would be good, but right now I'm very nervous about it, hopefully I'm just not looking in the right spots


I'm not surprised IMO that place was ruined or mismanaged by the DNR for many years. They care more about deer and turkey. I think the turkey numbers may be down out there too. 


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## Unregistered4

michgundog said:


> I'm not surprised IMO that place was ruined or mismanaged by the DNR for many years. They care more about deer and turkey. I think the turkey numbers may be down out there too.


Boy, I haven't been out to Verona in years, however, I found this info on the DNR site, and have worked along side DNR Don Bonnette on a couple habitat days in Deford, personally, and would say his commitment to small game and upland birds is stellar.

Yes, he was relativity new to the game (translates intoyoung guy with some ambitious and hopes for the future), so maybe this will help make a difference.

*******************************************************

*Verona State Game Area improving habitat for pheasants and other wildlife*

Contact: Holly Vaughn, 248-359-9063; Don Bonnette, 989-684-9141; or Sarah Lapshan, 517-241-1736 
Agency: Natural Resources

May 29, 2013
The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) recently conducted a series of prescribed fires on five sites totaling 535 acres in Huron County's Verona State Game Area. These fires were conducted in conjunction with other area wildlife habitat improvement projects as part of the Michigan Pheasant Restoration Initiative (MPRI).
The MPRI is a cooperative partnership between the DNR, Pheasants Forever, Michigan United Conservation Clubs, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the Michigan Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, local conservation districts and other conservation organizations to facilitate a revitalization of Michigan's pheasant population. This initiative is intended to enhance small game hunting opportunities, increase wildlife populations, improve hunter satisfaction and help Michigan's economy. To learn more, visit www.michigan.gov/pheasant.
Area mangers burn grassland areas in the spring on a regular three-to-five-year rotation to control tree and brush encroachment on grasslands. The overall goal of these prescribed fires is to improve habitat for pheasants, wild turkeys, deer and other grassland-dependent wildlife. The casual observer may find the appearance of these burned areas unpleasant, but the blackened appearance lasts only a few weeks and the overall wildlife habitat improvement lasts for multiple years.
Wildlife such as wild turkey and deer will use the burned areas immediately after the site cools to take advantage of the newly uncovered food sources, such as insects and unburned plant growth lying just underneath the ash. Ring-necked pheasants and other grassland-dependent birds will begin using the burned areas as the grasses begin to green up.
As a result of these burns, hunters can expect to see a large grassland complex for improved hunting opportunities.
Before any burn is conducted, experienced and trained DNR fire staff studies the area and carefully develops a burn plan to maximize the effects of fire behavior while assuring safety procedures are in place. The burn plan is essentially the "prescription" for how to conduct the burn safely while accomplishing the management objectives. The burn plan focuses on minimizing the effects of smoke, and also ensuring that the fire stays well within the established perimeter through the use of specialized DNR fire-fighting equipment. Although the plan is reviewed and approved well in advance, the actual burn must get a final approval the morning of a burn after DNR fire staff go over a rigorous go/no-go checklist. If conditions are not favorable, the burn can be cancelled at any time.
The Michigan Department of Natural Resources is committed to the conservation, protection, management, use and enjoyment of the state's natural and cultural resources for current and future generations. For more information, go to www.michigan.gov/dnr.

*********************************************************

So, maybe there is hope on the horizon...


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## Unregistered4

I have a funny story about doing habitat work out at Lapeer State Game area...

Our chapter of RGS and PF were out there doing habitat work, cutting a invasive species. When across the road from the pavilion they are doing a controlled burn, which was pretty neat to see. However, that area across the road is off-limits to hunting&#8230;but part of the state game area. I asked DNR official/biologist Jack Melkerson why they didn&#8217;t do something like that on our side, while looking out across the fields that had no value at all, and he said&#8230;&#8221;No money for that&#8230;the other side holds protected species and there&#8217;s money for that.&#8221;

I thought to myself...Boy, that's nice...
[/COLOR] 
Shortly after that (and a couple other reasons)...we moved our habitat day to Deford.


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## Unregistered4

Actually...after re-reading that last post...I don't no if it was funny or not...lol


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## Opey

I'm ok with part of public land being off limits to hunting as long as people are using it. My question is can I work my dog in it though? Could make great training ground.
I also believe the more people that can enjoy the state land the safer it will be from politics.
On the Verona issue. I truly believe it is a victim of over hunting. Every field is pounded all day for the first two weekends.


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## michgundog

Opey said:


> I'm ok with part of public land being off limits to hunting as long as people are using it. My question is can I work my dog in it though? Could make great training ground.
> I also believe the more people that can enjoy the state land the safer it will be from politics.
> On the Verona issue. I truly believe it is a victim of over hunting. Every field is pounded all day for the first two weekends.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Agree. Which is why they should have set up refuge areas out there so every inch of the place isn't pounded. There's enough land out there to do it. 

Lapeer has a section that is designated for trials and dog training. 

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## Opey

Unregistered consider yourself warned! If u ever mention the [email protected]$):r show again I will work on a petition to get u blocked from this site and kicked out of Michigan. My wife and daughter love that show which I believe is a small but real contribution to the downfall of society!! That's just a sin!


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## jesseb

I'm happy with the effort in Verona over the past few years, between our local PF chapter and the DNR I believe they are at least pushing toward a goal. Sure there are things that still need to be addressed but you have to give the changes a little time to come together, habitats aren't changed or perfected overnight. I would agree on designated hunt free zones as well, I believe refuges would really provide a boost to the population and sustainability.


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## Unregistered4

Unregistered4 said:


> ...and have worked along side DNR Don Bonnette on a couple habitat days in Deford, personally, and would say his commitment to small game and upland birds is stellar.
> 
> Yes, he was relatively new to the game (translate into...young guy with some ambition and hopes for the future)


Just wanted to clarify...when I said this...I didn't mean to disrespect anyone older that is doing the same type of work or working for the DNR. More or less I was just trying to say he hadn't been beaten down by the reality of things, yet. Granted, some folks never do and keep a positive outlook throughout their career, but that can be a "tough row to hoe" sometimes, especially within a system that depends on funding. I believe Al Stewart is like that, he seems to always have a positive view on things.

Anyhow, just wanted to clarify.

And, "Opey", I do not believe you can run dogs in the refuge at Lapeer state game area. I may be wrong, but I would check first.


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## Unregistered4

> ]


He's still hanging around, watched him yesterday afternoon, probably in the same tree as pictured. Granted, I watched through binocular's. He actually pounced on something while I was watching, luckily, it was a mouse.


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## michgundog

jesseb said:


> I'm happy with the effort in Verona over the past few years, between our local PF chapter and the DNR I believe they are at least pushing toward a goal. Sure there are things that still need to be addressed but you have to give the changes a little time to come together, habitats aren't changed or perfected overnight. I would agree on designated hunt free zones as well, I believe refuges would really provide a boost to the population and sustainability.


I noticed PF put up a signs in a few locations out there. Good to see, I just hope their efforts pay off. Yeah, I believe to make their efforts pay off long term hunt free zones would be a good idea. It would also be a good place in order to hunt it, you would need a special stamp. Of course with a large portion of the funds to go back to upland management. 


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## Unregistered4

With my foot issues taking a big chunk out of my bird season, seemed like as good a time as any to get Emma's tubes tied...lol She'd only seen action in the grouse woods the second weekend, and that was for only an hour or so. She' pointed three grouse, me killing a pair, and two woodcock, me killing one, but that was it for the season. So, after her recovery time and a few extra days...her sad face was beginning to wear on me.

Normally, her and I ain't the best of friends...or maybe that's a bit harsh...so let's just say, she'd rather be with someone else and so would I. Her with my wife and me with my boys and my girl, Gweny girl. Anyhow, when the season starts...we come to grips with one another and every setter gets its time afield regardless of its emotional content. And, truth be told, she's turned into a much better bird dog than I give her credit for. She started slow, always breaking that string of connection between her nose and brain for the longest time, probably wasn't actually that long of time...but it seemed that way.

Anyway, it was just before gun deer season opener and there was time for her to chase some birds around out back...so off the two of us went. For being eight she still has some pretty good gitty-up-and-go and is pretty easy on the eyes the way she carries herself. Me, not so much as I've aged. Well, I'd barely lit my customary cigar when she slides into a point...right out in the middle of the field. Not much cover at all, and I think she is crazy and out of her mind for thinking there is a bird around, but I go in for a flushing attempt. Sure enough, and not meaning to brag...but I'm right as usual...no bird. Oh, there was something there. It was a full sized racoon that came out of the grass in front of me. It runs off and I lose sight of it quickly.

I tell her to "Leave it!", two or three times, and we move on. Well, kind of. She moves about twenty some yards and points again. Now, I'm starting to get a little pissed at her and our differences in friendship are starting to surface. This time I yell at her..."EMMA, LEAVE IT!!!"...but, she doesn't move. She is a sight, though, all stretched out, head high, tail slung out behind her and stiff. But, even at that...I move her direction with every intention of giving her a boot in the butt, okay, not really...since I know better than to kick my wife's favorite dog in the butt...lol So, I'm making my way towards her, giving her a verbal "what's for" as I go...when you guessed it...a roosters boils out of the grass from in front of her. I'm like..."what the..."

Luckily, the Smith was somewhat ready...since the racoon didn't look the friendliest the first time around...and it comes to my shoulder smoothly and without any hesitation. First trigger is called upon shortly after the safety's voice says it's go-time and the bird rocks sideways, the second trigger is requested and is squeezed into action, and sends him back to earth sooner than he had planned. Emma has him in a few seconds and he's slipped into the game bag. I was amazed that that darn rooster must have been there the whole time I was yelling at Emma, the first time she pointed the racoon...and never made tracks.

We continue on, even though, the hunt is over and we are just going through the paces now. One bird will do it for today. Really can't remember what the rest of the hunt entailed, but she sure is an easy handling setter and enjoyable throughout the walk. Morning is always a nice time to break into the field, with its frost covered weeds and grasses, however, those late afternoon hunts are my favorite...as the sun burns its way into the distance horizon and clouds catch fire in its wake. There is something special about the pheasant field, something I do not get when amongst the grouse woods. In the field the beauty of mother nature is everywhere, as if it is paying me for being there amongst its worth. Maybe, it's the memories it brings me. Or the hope that there will always be moments like this. I really don't know what it is...or care...since it comes without coercion and is offered up as a reward for just being there.

Oh, by the way...when Emma pointed that pair of grouse up north...I walked in thinking woodcock all the way. She'd just pointed a woodcock not thirty seconds earlier, which I had killed for her. So, when she went on point again right away, I assumed she was pointing another woodcock. I believe, she will go to great lengths to prove me wrong...darn female dogs anyway...lol


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## 2ESRGR8

I always said she was your best dog. Good girl Emma.
I can recall her bringing in a grouse I shot that went farther than we thought. Going across the road, I think you were yelling at her then also.  
I see a pattern developing.


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## Unregistered4

However, this time I was going out with my right-hand man, the Deputy. Now, unlike Emma...he has been the love of my life, barring my wife, since your eyes locked on one another in Kentucky seven years ago. Really can't explain why...but it has been that way since. He was quick to mature, pointed a pair of grouse his first trip into the woods. Like it was yesterday, his silhouette on top of the small mound of earth, pointing head high and stilled by scent, his form is forever chiseled in my brain. Naturally, I missed both birds. Now that part...if someone had a good eraser for chisel marks...I may be willing to erase that portion of the tale.

Anyhow, him and I had gotten out one time during the late season to chase ruffed grouse...and for some reason he acted very, very strange the second day out. He wouldn't get more than a few yards from me, stopping, looking back over his shoulder at me. At first I assumed it was a coyote or something else that was spooking him, however, as we kept moving forward his actions never changed and I really never came across any tracks or jumped anything that would explain his actions. An entire hour was spent with him acting this way.

So, when we got home...I didn't want to end his season on such a strange note. Normally, he sees very little time in the field out back. His coat is long and silky...and the field is filled with burrs that like his coat as much as me. However, during the late season it's not quite as bad. So, with the Smith in hand and not much more besides me and the Deputy, and a issue to fix...the two of us headed out.

The wind was stiff out of the west that afternoon and deep bluish-gray clouds rushed past overhead as we circled the field looking for birds. He basically picked up right where he'd left off the weekend before, stopping, starting, looking back, unsure of everything around him, well, everything that is, but me. I just kept walking past him without saying a word, because he knows this field well enough to have no issues with its surroundings. Eventually, he got somewhat better...but no where near himself.

After about an hour or so, and two trips around the field, we still hadn't moved a bird. Which is understandable, considering our rate of speed. We'd crossed one set of tracks in our journey, but they were older and partially filled with wind blown snow. The wind had done nothing but amphified its fury and I really hated molesting the birds on a day like today, but hell or high-water I needed to put a bird in front of his nose. I knew all along where the birds were, bured deep in the ditchrow to the west, out of the wind and cold. However, I just hate cherry-picking for any setter, especially a mature setter that has seen his fair share of birds...but today's circumstances trumped those notions.

So, we made one more circle towards the western skies. We got to the ditchrow about midpoint, and turned north. Deputy dropped down into the cattails and drifted snow and pushed forward. I could see a fresh set of tracks smackdab in the bottom of the ditch and hopes grew. Sure enough, about a hundred yards from where we turned north...Deputy pointed from the far side of the ditch. He stood facing me, head low pointing into a blown down mess of cattails, and frozen solid. I hoped it wasn't from the cold and moved in for the flush.

Just as my boots made the adjacent bank the hiding rooster finally lost it cool and erupted from the cattails. At about fifteen yards, going right to left, prefect scenario, I stoned him with the first barrel...but continued with a second bullet...just incase. I wanted to put feathers in Deputy's mouth. And with that in mind...the rooster crashed into the opposite bank just as I cracked open the barrels of the Smith to reload. I took my eyes off the area as I was reloading and when I looked up...there stood the rooster ten yards in front of me. I'm like..."what the..." " I just killed you good, how can you be standing there looking at me?" He gets up as soon as he hears the barrels snap closed and puts the only tree within a hundred yards between us. In typical fashion, me seeing a bird on the ground, I shoot way to soon with the first barrel and miss him cleanly with the second just after he clears the cottonwood's trunk.

I'm so pissed at myself if I'd have had a third bullet in those barrels I might have used it on myself. However, just as I'm about to start apologizing to the Deputy for the shooting exhibition he'd just endured...I see him standing across the ditch bank with a rooster in his mouth. Well, to say that I wasn't pleasantly pleased would be a great understatement. I met him at the middle of the ditch and took the old bird from his mouth. My kingdom for a camera was never more evident...or hollowed. Eventually, the bird was slipped into my vest and we headed for the comfort of the woodstove burning strong within the house. His season would end today...on a good note.


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## Steelheadfred

I'm not sure you'd like my dogs much Brian, they mess up to much .

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## Unregistered4

The kennel door was barely cracked when the whining and complaining commenced. Sure makes it difficult picking a setter to hunt over when you have five to pick from...or listen too. They all plead their case with logic and compassion, but regardless...some one goes and the others stay. It was already warming up outside, sun was pouring down through clear skies and it really didn't cool off during the evening before. So, a cool running hound would be my choice today.

That leaves me with three choices...and Otis, the youngster, got the call. Went old-school and decided to run him silently, with no e-collar or beeper. We headed west, as the saying goes, and slipped across the road to the eighty some acres there. We weren't very far before things dried up and scenting conditions diminished greatly. Otis really didn't seem on his game from the get-go, working slower than normal and working areas twice sometimes. As if he was unsure of his own nose. He'd worked a bird on the other side getting here, but I called him off because of traffic and he was close to the road. Saturday hunts are always risky, so caution is observed.

Things are pretty slow across the road, a couple wild flushes...but no bird work. We even hit a little ten acre parcel that leads you to the other road, but it was bare. Swinging for home we cross our road and head east. I'm lighting my second cigar of the trip and setting the cruise control for the house, when Otis disappears. He was just in front of me a few minutes ago. Exchanging the cigar for a whistle I give him a couple blast. Nothing. Exchanging the whistle for its predecessor, I start heading for where he had worked that bird earlier. Me and my foot have gone a lot farther than I'd initially planned, so I'm really not in the mood for searching for a dog. Cover is still chest high in many spots, so finding a silent pointing dog is difficult to say the least.

Finally, I get to the little pie shaped piece of cover that ends the field. Stretching my neck I look in every direction. But, no Otis. A couple whistles, even called his name a few times...nothing. With my foot feeling like a broken piece of dead flesh at the end of my ankle...I stand smoking my cigar waiting for movement. Nothing. So, he has to be on point somewhere. I circle towards the road, just incase a bird flushes and he's in there somewhere and follows. I'm just about to the mowed lawn that sits along side the field, when I make out a white noggin with tri-colored markings. But, at the same exact moment...from only a few feet to my right...a rooster gets up. I'd like to say that I coolly removed the cigar from my mouth, slipped it back in its package, slipped the Smith to my shoulder and killed the fleeing bird. But, I can't.

The Smith that usually comes up smoothly, jerked its way to my armpit and planted itself there. Number one trigger was released anyway at the escaping bird, connecting slightly. Pulling the stock from my armpit and to my cheek, I used my now smashed cigar sticking straight up as a sight and sent Mr. Rooster into a cartwheel. Otis is just appearing on the scene when he hits the ground. However, he never really saw the bird in flight and only has my hand signals to lead him to it. He gets within a few feet of it and slams on point. I tell him to fetch it up, but through lack of bird contacts and poor training habits of his owner...he really has no idea what that means.

He does eventually break and chase it for a good distance, however, he loses it. We search for another twenty minutes, but he doesn't come up with anything. Finally, recruits are summoned and Gweny girl digs it out. Thank goodness there is a bullpen waiting in the wings to assist in these areas. Otis didn't even get in the photo shoot for his efforts, he did hold point for a good ten or fifteen minutes before I got there...that should count for something...lol By the end of the late season his performances had improved imensely and he finally tasted pheasant for the first time on his own.


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## Opey

Just catching up. Unregistered thx for the info on the refuge, if I do make it over there I will read the rules first. 
Also on your **** incident, I had a similar incident. My GSP Gunner is locked up in some real thick and waist high grass so I go in to make the flush. I'm kicking around for a few with no results. I try to release Gunner but he wouldn't move so now I'm convinced there is a bird somewhere at my feet and start stretching my leg out trying to slowly move the grass and be ready to pull. Then I put my boot into what I thought was a ant hill but at the same time my brain starting the warning feeling because the ant hill was kinda soft. Well I jumped back and Gunner jumped in. A huge raccoon came busting out hissing and trying to run. Well I believe it is part of Gunners breed so of course he goes in for the kill and I could not get him to back off until I gave him a couple pokes from the collar and luckily he came off with only a mouth full of fur. The **** then went west and I turned north. SCARED THE CRAP OUT OF ME.


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## Unregistered4

Yeah, it's amazing how a twenty pound racoon can scare the cra* out of a two hundred and twenty five pound, six foot four grown man...lol Believe me, the shotgun was leveled at that racoon we saw.

A few years back we had a nice point and back on a black and white loaded for bear stink bomb. I'm doing the same, kicking around in the long grass and weeds...until I make out its dark shape below.

Over the years, I've been pretty fortunate with fur and needled porcupines. I've had five pointed porcupines (by four different setters), a racoon, a shrunk and a live opossum brought back to me. It's weird, the only fur they have ever chased were deer and cats...and that seemed to be only the males.


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## hehibrits

Years ago over by Brown City, the finest dog I ever had the privilege to hunt over, locks up solid near the bottom of a deep, wide, weedy ditch. Probably being 14 years old, I was sent down the embankment to flush said bird. There was a big clump of marsh grass the dog was pointing into so I walked over and kicked around with my foot when low and behold a great blue heron pops up and looks me in the eye, nose to beak, cocks his head, and takes a stab at me. Needless to say, I ran like a little girl.


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## Unregistered4

Steelheadfred said:


> I'm not sure you'd like my dogs much Brian, they mess up to much .


I'm sorry to hear this...have you ever thought about getting a noble and majestic setter?

But, truth be told, I really don't understand your comment (can you believe that...lol). 

And...if you are insinuating that I'm insinuating that my dogs never mess up, then your insinuations about my insinuations are completely unsubstantiated and without merit.


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## Unregistered4

hehibrits said:


> Years ago over by Brown City, the finest dog I ever had the privilege to hunt over, locks up solid near the bottom of a deep, wide, weedy ditch. Probably being 14 years old, I was sent down the embankment to flush said bird. There was a big clump of marsh grass the dog was pointing into so I walked over and kicked around with my foot when low and behold a great blue heron pops up and looks me in the eye, nose to beak, cocks his head, and takes a stab at me. Needless to say, I ran like a little girl.


Oh the joys of being the youngest in the group. Your flushing attempt at fourteen sounds like a lot of other fourteen year olds, though, maybe a bit more dramatic. How many times I was told to flush a bird escapes me, but it was a lot. Especially, when there was water involved.

And, maybe, just maybe, that's why I got a flushing breed for my first gun dog...lol


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## gundogguy

Unregistered4 said:


> Yeah, it's amazing how a twenty pound racoon can scare the cra* out of a two hundred and twenty five pound, six foot four grown man...lol Believe me, the shotgun was leveled at that racoon we saw.
> 
> A few years back we had a nice point and back on a black and white loaded for bear stink bomb. I'm doing the same, kicking around in the long grass and weeds...until I make out its dark shape below.
> 
> Over the years, I've been pretty fortunate with fur and needled porcupines. I've had five pointed porcupines (by four different setters), a racoon, a shrunk and a live opossum brought back to me. It's weird, the only fur they have ever chased were deer and cats...and that seemed to be only the males.





hehibrits said:


> Years ago over by Brown City, the finest dog I ever had the privilege to hunt over, locks up solid near the bottom of a deep, wide, weedy ditch. Probably being 14 years old, I was sent down the embankment to flush said bird. There was a big clump of marsh grass the dog was pointing into so I walked over and kicked around with my foot when low and behold a great blue heron pops up and looks me in the eye, nose to beak, cocks his head, and takes a stab at me. Needless to say, I ran like a little girl.


March, time to gear up for the raccoon wars around the pheasant flight pen and the pigeon barn. 9 live trapped and 4 acquired through other means last spring. They are relentless!


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## jesseb

Yesterday, took my pup Ranger out to see if we could find sign of any pheasants left alive, turned out to be a pretty fun 3 hours totaling 26 birds that we seen. Most were hens so hopefully lord willing we will have a good hatch again this spring and keep the upward swing in numbers.


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## Unregistered4

I'll probably hold off until after quiet-time is over before working dogs on birds or possibly longer...depending on observations. They're pretty stressed right now and we can wait some.

Not seeing many hens around here, however, they lay pretty low compared to the roosters it seems. Still have a few coming into the yard and nextdoor for fodder, but never any hens (that I've seen).

We still have several inches of snow in the fields (grass fields, crop fields are showing dirt). I was going to go for a walk, dogless, Saturday...but the going was to tough for this tough get going guy...lol


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## hehibrits

Unregistered4 said:


> Oh the joys of being the youngest in the group. Your flushing attempt at fourteen sounds like a lot of other fourteen year olds, though, maybe a bit more dramatic. How many times I was told to flush a bird escapes me, but it was a lot. Especially, when there was water involved.
> 
> And, maybe, just maybe, that's why I got a flushing breed for my first gun dog...lol


Sad thing is, I am still the youngest. It's like the older they get, the older I get. Weird. Here's the revenge part of the story...about 8 years ago we were working a grass field probably about 160 acres, three guys spread out pretty wide. I see a rooster get up a good hundred yards in front of me and glide into the far side of the field. I call over to the guy far right and point him into the spot and bam, his dog locks up solid and he walks in for the flush and takes a skunk spray direct from knee to thigh. To this day he thinks I did it on purpose.....


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## jesseb

hehibrits said:


> Sad thing is, I am still the youngest. It's like the older they get, the older I get. Weird. Here's the revenge part of the story...about 8 years ago we were working a grass field probably about 160 acres, three guys spread out pretty wide. I see a rooster get up a good hundred yards in front of me and glide into the far side of the field. I call over to the guy far right and point him into the spot and bam, his dog locks up solid and he walks in for the flush and takes a skunk spray direct from knee to thigh. To this day he thinks I did it on purpose.....


Hahaha that is priceless!!!


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## Unregistered4

Great story.

Question...

Does anyone have any experiences with the PF plot mixes? Looking at maybe planting some this year. The blizzard buster, winter shield and winter survival mixes look interesting. After watching the birds feed in the crabapple trees nextdoor, I'm also thinking about planting a couple hawthorn, since they hold their fruit into the winter months. Has anyone done this for pheasants in their area?

I'm thinking about manipulating the overall structure of the combined sixty some acres behind the house. The best winter cover, now, is the far western end and is probaby a narrow five acre, where it is prime stuff. There use to be some decent winter cover on the eastern egde, but that smaller ditchrow with its tangled mess of brush and willow was been cleared recently. There is another portion of the field that is turning into decent winter cover, but needs a bit of help...and this is where I'd like to concentrate my efforts. It is about two hundred yards or more from both of the previously mentioned winter covers. Located more in the center of the field. Problem is, yes, there is always a problem...lol...the western and eastern egdes have ditchrows running along side, offering an escape from the wind. And where I want to developed a new spot, doesn't. It does have the remains of an old fencerow with dogwood and a mix of brush growing amongst its gnarly mess.

One advantage I see about moving/creating new winter cover is it will give them another option. Especially, since they already lost their eastern egde cover. And maybe keep them out of my yard during the winter months. I'm also thinking about doing a controlled burn in the nesting area, once nesting season is over of course or possibly before if the snow gets out of here soon, and promote some new grass cover. Some brush-hogging is a possiblity, too.

So, if anyone has used the PF mixes, I'd like to hear about their successes or failures. Or if they have found something better. Or any ideas in general?


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## Unregistered4

Nash, Emma, the Deputy and two about Otis...it's only fair that Gweny girl gets some air time.

Gwen is the oldest of our setters, ten, and has had probably the most ground time of any. She excelled at pheasant from the get-go and at times makes finding them look easy. She's found her fair share of grouse, too, however, I've never considered her my best in that category...and is much better at pheasant. Granted, she has seen probably ten times the ground time in the pheasant fields, since her coat is better suited. It's funny, well unless you've only moved three grouse, but whenever we hunt grouse...she always bust the first two or three birds on purpose. I've caught her red-handed on several occasions. She started doing that after her third year and has continued. Yeah, I could probably correct her...but she's having funny and she's my girl...so I don't. And after those three, she goes into her rock solid self. However, on pheasants she never does this, kind of weird. Anyhow, after giving her the cold shoulder opening day, for Nash man. She finally got her moment in the sun.

Just like any other time we've been out together, I've barely got my hand in my pocket scrounging around for a lighter...when she goes on point. Normally, the other hounds at least wait until I've had a chance to light up. Anyway, she's got her nose pointing towards the road and I can tell she's close to the bird. The bird flushes just as I get between her and the road, but it is a young rooster and we pass. I've shot my fair share of roosters over her...and we'll find more...so I can be a little picky with her.

She goes on to point several more birds, a few young of the year roosters and hens, when finally she locks down a big boy. He comes up, left to right, twenty five yards out, tail feathers as long as a mans arm, easy kill by any means...but I whiff with both barrels. Oops, that wan't suppose to happen that way...sorry girl. One great thing about Gwen, she can care less about the kill...it's all about the chase for her and she is away and searching before I break the barrels open. Or maybe she's just seen enough birds get away...that anymore...she's just given up hope...lol

We finish the walk without another point, but that's okay...there is plenty more season left for her and I.


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## michgundog

Some of those PF mixes have been blamed for containing Canadian Rye Foxtail & others which can be deadly. I know some spaniel people that are really opposed to it. 

http://www.meanseeds.com/


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Some of those PF mixes have been blamed for containing Canadian Rye Foxtail & others which be deadly. I know some spaniel people that are really opposed to it.
> 
> http://www.meanseeds.com/
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Canadian Rye is a problem for all breeds of sporting dogs.
http://www.meanseeds.com/

I know of at least 10 dogs, of all breeds in the last 5 years that have past away due grass awn infiltration to their lungs.

This is who I have purchased and planted seed for my prairie grass training area.
When you buy from Stock Seed co you are buying 100% live seed no fillers no other grasses
I planted Switch, Indian grass and Big Blue stem, absolutely love it!
When burning burn before any new growth occurs burn as soon in the spring as you can.
Here is a June photo from last year 2013


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## hehibrits

Standing row crops help make for some good winter cover. Sorghum is the best I have encountered. It's thick enough to be a wind block and promote drifting snow, sturdy enough not get knocked over by heavy snows, keeps a good food source well above the snow or ice pack. A couple of strips about 8-12 rows wide by 50 yards long, one oriented north and south, the other east and west. Not winter cover related, but still the key to pheasant is milkweed. Trust me, there is no greater limiting factor than milkweed.


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## Unregistered4

Thanks, for all of the ideas and helpful suggestions. I sure hope this snow keeps melting, so a possible burn happens before it's to late.

I'm really interested in having some sort of food source closeby, and I also really like some of those cover grasses mentioned. Standing crops aren't out of the question. Buchwheat, sunflowers, sorghum and corn are bouncing around my head. We have a pretty good supply of milkweed up close to the house and some out in the field, but definitely more along the yard.

Hopefully I'll get this going this year, before the new neighbor gets his high moisture content hay product planted. I believe, he's doing a cover crop this year, beans, and that will buy me some time. However, he tiled the field this past fall...so there probably won't be a lot left standing like before.

Maybe, I'll stop by the Armada elevator and ask some questions there.


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## Unregistered4

That's really cool.

Where in the thumb was his store? 

Our favorite mid-day "stop at store" was in Deckerville. It was an old place, back then (forty years ago now), south side of the main road, just like you would imagine, old squeaky floors and a charm you just can't seem to find anymore. I guess I really shouldn't say that, I have been in some places in the thumb that still resemble that. But, they are getting few and far between. Now, you got me thinking about taking a ride up there on Sunday, just to investigate.


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## michgundog

Unregistered4 said:


> That's really cool.
> 
> Where in the thumb was his store?
> 
> Our favorite mid-day "stop at store" was in Deckerville. It was an old place, back then (forty years ago now), south side of the main road, just like you would imagine, old squeaky floors and a charm you just can't seem to find anymore. I guess I really shouldn't say that, I have been in some places in the thumb that still resemble that. But, they are getting few and far between. Now, you got me thinking about taking a ride up there on Sunday, just to investigate.


You will have to go further north to Kinde. Yes, but you described the place real well it had real squeaky floors. I believe it's a restaurant today. From stories my Dad told me opening day up there was really something. Even sold many Belguim Browning shotguns on opening day. He couldn't keep the sweet 16's on the shelf during that time of year and era. 


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## Unregistered4

One of the guys I work with, his wife is from Kinde. Her family owns a big farming/diary operation up there. He talks about the hay-days of bird hunting up there by Kinde, thirty years ago, and he probably frequented the store.


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## Unregistered4

If they sold beer, that is...if not...he probably didn't...lol


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## michgundog

Unregistered4 said:


> One of the guys I work with, his wife is from Kinde. Her family owns a big farming/diary operation up there. He talks about the hay-days of bird hunting up there by Kinde, thirty years ago, and he probably frequented the store.


They would know each other, its a great little town. I know there use to be a bar across the street called The Wagon Wheel, but it's closed up years ago. Your buddy was probably bummed when that happened....lol


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## Unregistered4

I'll ask him and if he tears up...then I'll know he knows the place...lol


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## Unregistered4

A few weeks ago I went over to visit my cousin, he still lives on the farm where I cut my eye teeth on pheasant, and he's the one that stood along side me in the cow lane on that lead rain day. Anyway, we had a nice visit and when I left I swung down past my old ex-inlaws place. It was an eight acre farm that they thought would support them after my ex-father in law retired from his job in the city, but cancer and modern times stole that dream.

The old place was split up shortly after his death, mainly into tens, and only two avoided the effects of the modern times housing boom, completely. Unfortunately, those two tens are divided by a few houses. Since the rest have homes standing smackdab in the middle of them and stole away a lot of good pheasant ground in the process. I pulled the truck over when I reached one of my favorite spots, put the truck in park and got out just a few hundred yards from the old swale-hole that's still existing out behind a polebarn now. Boy, how many times I enjoyed the bird work of a little liver and white springer there, amongst that jumbled mess of cattails, goes almost uncountable to me, now? Killed my last pheasant on that property, in about that very spot, in 1999, just before the world was suppose to end...lol, over an old springer named Norton. World did end for him a few years back, he ended out his days living with my kids to the rip old age of seventeen.

Well, we've had a lot of discussion/debate about the comeback of the ring-neck pheasant amongst these pages...but I know one place, for-sure, where they ain't never coming back too. As the cold finally pushed me back into the confines of the truck, I couldn't help but take one more last look before pulling away...in hopes...that just maybe...a bird would get up as I did. Part of me says I saw one take wing...but in reality...it probably didn't happen...but then again...I ain't sure.


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## drwink

Brian your writings are good reads. Bringing back a lot of thoughts and memories of my own. From my dad telling me stories about when I was a baby they had a group that would go up to Caro to hunt Pheasants, stay in a Hotel and the woman there would cook and clean birds for them. 

Now I have more thoughts about, when I was old enough to start tagging along up to when I hunted on my own after high school. Southern lower Michigan had few Deer, they were all up north and in those days that's where everyone went to hunt them. There were no Turkeys till the introduction of them, hell now they are damn near everywhere and almost a nusance. 
I understand about cover, the new farming practices, what DDT did yada, yada but either its about money or the birds not being very adaptive. Seems the DNR gave up after the Sichuan thing on Pheasants.
20 years from now it won't matter to me cause I'll probably be dead but kids like your grandson will only have his papa's memories to hold on to as far a Pheasants go.
With todays knowledge & technology I feel they should be able to do more for Pheasants. Just really bums me out.


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## Unregistered4

Wally,

Believe me, I get as much enjoyment out of reading what others have to say or can remember, whether true or not...lol, since they spark a lot of fond memories in my semi-rusty noggin.

Had dinner down in Belleville yesterday evening with three guys that have been chasing birds for a long, long time and the stories they could tell would fill a novel from cover to cover. And their memories were as sharp as tack. When I'd mention a road, area or old abandon shack back in the woods on state land...they'd know the area well and give you a bit of history on its past. When I'd mention an area...they'd name every road that dissected its girth. They even talked about the immediate area surrounding my cabin, like they were there yesterday. The neatest part of all was...they are still getting after them and to hear the excitement in their voices about the upcoming season and just the prospect of heading north to chase grouse and woodcock again. Filled me with the hope that there will always be at least those birds to chase. They all lived through the hay-days of pheasant hunting, too, and seemed to smile warmly inside at the thought of ever chasing them again. So, come October/November this year...maybe they'll be able to come out and scratch down a couple roosters out back.

Anyway...

A lot of what I scratch down on these internet pages is for them or for those that are less fortunate and can't get out anymore, for whatever reason, and my own mental exercise of sorts.

Bird hunting has fed my soul for a lot of years...and hopefully for a few more to come. And, I'd sure like to be sitting around a diner's cozy table, chewing the fat with some other bird hunters thirty years from now.


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## Unregistered4

Ran Otis today, no pheasants found, one super intense unproductive and one point I couldn't get to. On a side note, we did find one woodcock and one snipe. Otis had about the best run of his short life, he's two and a half, and really put some ground between us and hunted hard the entire time. Walked for a good hour or more, not a single fresh sign of birds anywhere. Ran Otis in point mode to enhance his chances, but it was very disappointing outcome; bird wise.

However, there was a rooster out there this evening, heard him while in the yard with the dogs. So, there is hope.


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## Unregistered4

Both Emma and Nash got a chance this morning to find a pheasant. Heard two or three different roosters cackling this morning while out with the hounds, so I assumed our chances would be good. Got into a couple woodcock right off the bat, then I walked up a rooster while the setters were off in the wrong area, darn dogs anyway, and watched a eagle take flight that was getting an early start on pheasant season. Dogs pointed a few more woodcock, one on a nest with two eggs, and moved five snipe.

It was funny, I was pointing out a spot in the field to my wife, where I would look for hen pheasants, nesting, and showing her a blown over patch of grass where a hen would likely nest under...and we turn around and Emma is on point smackdab in front of us, ten feet in front of us to be exact, her beeper collar starts in point mode and I immediately think she's gone crazy or just out of practice at this...lol, since it's as clean a deck between her and us that you will ever see. However, I go through a flushing attempt to amuse her, goofy setters anyway, sometimes you just have to do these things even though you know they are wrong, but as I get two feet from her and I'm starting to tell her she's just a crazy girl...a woodcock materializes out of the grass...exposing two tinny eggs bedded in a circle of woven grass. And, just as I suspected...

Beautiful morning to be out in the field, the swans and ducks that were nextdoor left sometime during the day yesterday or something. Probaby a couple hundred the day before, now, it's eerily quiet out there without them and their incessant racket. Probably done running the dogs, on account of the nesting woodcock. No problem, we've got some ground available to us that holds pheasants...and is less likely to hold woodcock.

Some pictures...

Otis pointing a woodcock, from yesterday.










Otis, watching a woodcock fly away.










The Duke...just because I find this hilarious...lol










Otis saying..."screw those darn woodcock, lets go after the king!"










Otis, pointing what I assume to be a pheasant...since it was an unproductive...unless of course, woodcock are now out running me...lol










Emma, pointing something along the ditchbank.










Emma, pointing a woodcock (you can see it just below her tail).










The nest.


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## Unregistered4

We were out in the field today, when I believe "turkeytamer41" drove by. So you can blame the quality of some of these photos on him...if he would have stopped by and taken them...you may appreciate them more...our little point and shoot camera pales in comparison.


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