# 2004 PA Rifle...Hope you can all hunt PA someday!!



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Well, once again we've had a great year in PA so far! My friend Joe, on the left connected on a nice 2.5 year old 7 point at 7:45 on opening morning, and I was lucky enough to get this 2.5 year old 8 point at 1:45 on the opener. Overall we saw less deer, but I still saw 10 deer with the first being a good 4 point at 11:30, and the last being this 8 point at 1:45. We both had 2 hour drags out of the woods, with me being the lucky one of having Joe come out and help me. The weather was perfect, the wind was minimal, and with the year I've already had in WI and MI, coupled with Joe shooting his buck in the morning, this buck was just the icing on the cake.

I'm sure some of you are sick of hearing from me how much better PA is then most of MI for public land hunting, but this is yet another testiment to how good we have it out there and that AR's are indeed working. 2 of the guys in camp saw the largest buck they have seen in there 20+ years of hunting in PA, and the one missed it. We only stuck around until 7 am the 2nd day, but it will be interesting to hear of the updated buck stories throughout the week. This was Joe's 4th year hunting PA with me and during those 4 years we have both shot 3 bucks each and all 6 have been 2.5 years of age or older, with Joe shooting a great 8 point 2 years ago scoring close to 120.

We eat like kings, have a great time with the guys at camp, and by adding in the phenomenal hunting you can see why I've been to PA 12 years in a row.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Absolutely beautiful!


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Looks like you had a good season in every state. . .you WI buck makes that PA buck look small, maybe they should switch seasons. :lol:


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## Andy (May 20, 2004)

jeff,


can you post the pic of your WI buck again? I never got to see it.
andy


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Here it is:


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Andy, here was the WI bow buck for this year...


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## Rencoho (Oct 18, 2000)

We got back Tuesday from our annual trip to Pa., Bradford county, our group of 12 only took two bucks, both 8 points and three doe. I was lucky enough to shoot my biggest buck yet,opening morning at 7:30 a 3 1/2 year old, we had several other sightings of shooter bucks including a 5 point that came by and watched as I gutted out my buck. Overall our buck sightings were down slightly from last year,and there are still too many does in our area, which is on private land, as my uncle saw at least 40 doe on Tuesday with two spikes in the mix. Most of the guys save their doe tags for muzzle loader season. Jeff you are right,the weather was ideal, sure glad the season did'nt open Sunday, as it rain and blew nearly all day.


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## Andy (May 20, 2004)

Jeff,


Those are awesome Wis. bucks! If I were you, I'd be moving to Wisconsin!
andy


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Nice bucks there Jeff. Imagine, we could have bucks like those running around the northern Lower Peninsula, if we had a 3pt on a side antler restriction.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Rencoho,

It was a little slower this year....the mast crops were terrible, the rut appeared over, and there was a lot less shooting. The does have been hammered hard over the past few years around us. I don't have anyway of knowing for sure, but I would say we don't need any more does shot around where we hunt in the National forest...I hunt over by the resevoir, only 15 miles from Bradford. For where we hunt though, and the way I like to hunt out in the hills, it still seems like the same patterns are holding for buck movement and sitting all day in one spot in benches/saddles above the hemlock lines about 1/2 way down can be pretty successful for older bucks, you just see less deer over all. 

Will be interesting to see how the rest of the group does for the remainder of the week...they hunt very hard and have several proven drives lined up. I'm just starting to wonder though that as the deer numbers are reduced, and the bucks become older by percentage of population, if some of the traditional walking/stalking and driving techniques will becomes much less dependable as proven ways to harvest a buck.


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## Bwana (Sep 28, 2004)

Beautiful deer Jeff on all three of these monsters. 

Bring on those Michigan (preferablely statewide) A/R's so even us NLP hunters can increase our odds for this type of success as well.


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## PahtridgeHunter (Sep 1, 2004)

All I can say is "Wow", Jeff! Congrats! 


I'll bet your taxidermist is hoping he's gonna retire off of you!!!:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

I read this and I gotta speak up. Two 2.5 year old bucks and your bragging about PA has somehting everybody has to experience?!?!? Well then everybody needs to drive less miles and experience Drummond Island as our camp produced two 2.5 year olds an 8 and 7 point too(I even got the 7 point!) but wait don't even drive that far, enjoy Roscommon county state land where a group of friends hunted opening weekend where they produced two 8-points(one being a 3.5 year old dandy, going on my buddies wall), one 2.5 year old 7 point, and one 5 point that I didn't see so no age is known, all this before the second day's evening. These guys all walk in through some real jungle swamp or walk in 3/4 miles or more as well, really get off the beaten path. Its just all relative, NJ walks in where 95% of PA hunters would never give that much effort, same for MI state lands and hunters.

The WI bucks are dandies, but those are farm bucks and bucks growing like that would be rare in NLP with or without ARs. 

I find interesting that both you("It was a little slower this year....the mast crops were terrible, the rut appeared over, and there was a lot less shooting..") and Rencoho(" Overall our buck sightings were down slightly from last year..") say the same thing, which kinda reflects what Happy Hunter has been saying!?!? Maybe, maybe not.............AR's having more and older bucks in the woods....!?!?!...maybe.....


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

beer and nuts said:


> I read this and I gotta speak up. Two 2.5 year old bucks and your bragging about PA has somehting everybody has to experience?!?!? Well then everybody needs to drive less miles and experience Drummond Island as our camp produced two 2.5 year olds an 8 and 7 point too(I even got the 7 point!) but wait don't even drive that far, enjoy Roscommon county state land where a group of friends hunted opening weekend where they produced two 8-points(one being a 3.5 year old dandy, going on my buddies wall), one 2.5 year old 7 point, and one 5 point that I didn't see so no age is known, all this before the second day's evening. These guys all walk in through some real jungle swamp or walk in 3/4 miles or more as well, really get off the beaten path. Its just all relative, NJ walks in where 95% of PA hunters would never give that much effort, same for MI state lands and hunters.
> 
> The WI bucks are dandies, but those are farm bucks and bucks growing like that would be rare in NLP with or without ARs.
> 
> I find interesting that both you("It was a little slower this year....the mast crops were terrible, the rut appeared over, and there was a lot less shooting..") and Rencoho(" Overall our buck sightings were down slightly from last year..") say the same thing, which kinda reflects what Happy Hunter has been saying!?!? Maybe, maybe not.............AR's having more and older bucks in the woods....!?!?!...maybe.....


Are beer and nuts & Happy Hunter relatives or just drinking partners?:lol:


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## Rencoho (Oct 18, 2000)

Whats the problem? I was simply relaying how my Pa. hunt went this year. The state has antler restrictions. I wasn't commenting one way or another on that. I am originally from Pa. and my uncles and cousins still live there, we get together every deer season and have a ball ARs or not. Oh, and I love hunting deer in Michigan too.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Rencoho-meant nothing toward you or NJ, just commenting with reflection on what I've read here. I'm more than happy for NJ and others that harvest deer like that-the WI bucks are real trophies. Swamp G-typical.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

B&N,

*No blinds
*No bait
*No ATV's
*More older bucks by percentage of herd population
*Huge, huge differance in the amount of daytime activity by deer....most of our bucks are shot between 10 and 2:00....not at 5:45 pm.

I've hunted lots of public land in MI and sure, it can be done, but it's a heck of a lot easier in PA and the variety of methods you can employ to get your buck are greatly increased due to the absence of baiting and ATV's covering the woods. There are certainly less deer in the woods...just more bucks and older bucks!  12 years ago when I started hunting PA it was common to see 40 deer by lunch...with NO bucks, or any with large enough antlers to stand out in the herd of 15 running by. Now if you would be fortunate enough to see 15 deer on opening day you will see a few bucks and there are just as many older, as younger, or even more. 

PA is great even without the AR's, the AR's are just the icing on the cake. Anywhere in the country you can hunt large tracts of beautiful public land with no bait and no ATV's down every 2-track is better than MI just for starters. Throw in better management and you can have a great time.

My father in law from PA came out here to hunt in MI this year and hunted with me twice. He can't stand sitting in a tree for more than an hour an likes to move around. When he found out how many bait piles were out in the adjoining public land and where they were, he didn't even go out for fear of running into someones baiting blinds and walking across their cross hairs. Now if he likes sitting in trees or blinds he would have loved the property, but when he realized how different the public lands were around here he didn't even set foot out in the woods again. I don't think he'll hunt MI again because he can't walk and stalk without running into a bait pile, and that's how he likes to hunt-that isn't a problem in PA. 

No comparison between PA and MI, and it was that way before the AR's. All I can do is show the difference with pictures and tell you about my experiences in other states. You can choose to believe or not. I truly wish you could see for yourself because it would make you realize how lacking we are in MI and you might try and fight to improve MI like many of us have.

By the way, the WI bucks have nothing to do with AR's, food, genetics, etc., just age, private land, and a different culture. This post was about PA, and others brought up other bucks I'd shot this year...nothing to do with the fact that PA public land is still alive and kicking.

You think I like driving to PA or WI for my health?!? Again, I'd trade the entire 2 weeks of MI gun for opening day in PA and I wouldn't waste my time if it wasn't truly better hunting...plain and simple.

Life is too short to waste time questioning when you could be out taking part in what great hunting this country has to offer. I'm 34 and can honestly say if I was unfortunately never again able to hunt for deer I would have already lived out my hunting dreams, filled my mind with life-long hunting memories, and taken a taste of what hunting around the country has to offer...no regrets! You are welcome to believe or not but as the old saying goes..."don't knock it until you try it". I'm excited about what I've experienced and love to tell people about it. The hunts I've parteken of continue to fuel my passion for the outdoors and I feel it is effectively translating to my young kids. I wish you all could experience the same!!


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

I'm not knocking anything. NJ, I just think your making more out of PA than what is really there as a state as a whole, not just the region where you hunt. I'm not sure how much you have hunted the UP(except where you live) but I can set you afoot on state land in every county of the UP and most every county of the NLP in land that you might never see a hunter all season. Now granted the land is some what different as you know, as walking 1 mile or more in the UP or NLP will require you to walk through a cedar swamp or some sort or water but thats the effort part. I believe you and have said that you seem to have a great spot there in PA, but its your effort that sets you apart from 95% of the hunters. Same results(harvest results) hold true for the 5% of hunters than do that in MI-I can name you alot that I know that hunt right in Rosco co.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

B&N,

The area we hunt in PA is supposed to one of the worst..but I have no idea. As far as the U.P. I've hunted or have close friends that hunt in the Big Bay area NW of Marquette, in through Munising and south, over to Seney, up to Grand Marais and in between, over around Newberry, and around Engadine from 2 south to Lake MI.

Many of the guys in camp get their buck on the way in the morning while walking, or walking during the day, I'm just one of the idiots that like the consistant success of walking in a long way and sitting all day.

I work a heck of lot harder for my bucks in MI than I do in PA and spend many, many more days doing it. In PA I've shot 9 bucks in 12 years and only averaged a 1/2 day of hunting. I've only shot 2 of the 9 bucks in the afternoon on opening day, 1 on the 2nd day, and the rest on opening morning....lots, lots easier than MI and pretty consistant on 2.5 year olds.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2004)

beer and nuts said:


> The WI bucks are dandies, but those are farm bucks and bucks growing like that would be rare in NLP with or without ARs.


The ONLY reason bucks like that are rare in the NLP is because they are all shot when they are spikes or forkhorns. Let a few "scrawny" NLP bucks grow to be 4.5 years old and even you will be amazed.

Brad


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2004)

beer and nuts said:


> ...your right, I will never get it


Let me try to help.




beer and nuts said:


> you guys talk in tongues with QDM, one says even 2.5 year olds are not mature yet then NJ says maybe next year he will start targeting 3.5 year old or older(PA) and then you say the perfect buck is a 2.5 year old to shoot!?!?


A 2.5 year old buck IS NOT a mature deer, you're correct, but no one has said that the goal of QDM is to protect all bucks until they reach full maturity. The goal of QDM is to protect yearling bucks. Why don't you understand that? NJ's decision to target a 3.5 year old is only a personal challange, not a QDM mandated change.




beer and nuts said:


> Shoot mature does, don't shoot mature does....goes on and on...


That's why a properly implemented QDM program starts with a detailed survey of the deer population in that area. Some areas need to have as many does killed as possible and some areas need to have does protected. Again, fairly simple logic.




beer and nuts said:


> and now you guys want QDM for the whole UP under one guideline and you expect the DNR to manage Grand Marie like Menominee Co.....trouble????


The UP QDM proposal is only one step of a QDM program: protecting yearling bucks. Protecting yearling bucks is benifical wherever it is used as a QDM tool. Period. No trouble there.




beer and nuts said:


> you guys talk in tongues with QDM


QDM is:
Balance age structure
Balanced sex ratios
Maintaining a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions

Sounds pretty clear to me.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

I don't know where the QDMA or any other QDM'r on this board has said we need to protect 2.5 year old bucks. In some area's 2.5 year old bucks may have to be protected, due to environmental limitations, but these areas are few and far between, ie. mountainous regions of PA and the UP.

Neither have I ever experienced hunters getting "jumped" on for harvesting a 1.5 year old buck on this board.

Adequate harvest of does and protection of 1.5 year old bucks, that's QDM.




> one says even 2.5 year olds are not mature yet then NJ says maybe next year he will start targeting 3.5 year old or older(PA) and then you say the perfect buck is a 2.5 year old to shoot!?!?


PA's AR's are in their infancy, but they are doing what is intended,jump starting the process of hunters passing young deer. This year they pass on 1.5 year olds, see more and older bucks, and in the next years they may or may not choose to raise the bar a little higher. Looks like NJ is choosing to raise the bar as many hunters do, when AR's are implemented. 

I'm not jumping on anyone for what they believe, I just think irrational, emotion filled rant's over an internet forum are hilarious.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2004)

beer and nuts said:


> QDm is good for some areas and poor for others....


QDM is:
Balanced age structure
Balanced sex ratios
Maintaining a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions

How can that NOT be good for *ANY* area? Give me one example where doing the opposite of any of those 3 goals is benifical for a deer population.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

beer and nuts said:


> QDm is good for some areas and poor for others....


Please explain what areas QDM is good for and what areas QDM is poor for?


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

BuckBass said:


> QDM is:
> Balanced age structure
> Balanced sex ratios
> Maintaining a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions
> ...


Its not doing the opposite that we're worried about.

I'm worried about:

Balanced age structure; when we try to achieve that by having Antler Point Restrictions and end up trying to count points instead of concentrating on making a good shot.

Balanced sex ratios; when the dnr gives out too many doe permits because they have no idea what the sex ratio is in every part of the state.

Maintaining a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions; again, the dnr doesn't collect enough deer harvest data to be able to determine what the population is in every DMU and what the harvest goals should be.

QDM doesn't bother me. Just keep it in on your own property.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

You know your a Real QDMer thread....by Farmlegend

6. You politely nod when you hear the expression "a nice 6-pointer", but on the inside, you are rolling your eyes. You know there is no such thing! 

Most if not all six pointers in the NLP and UP are 2.5 year old deer! There is my example of contradiction and this I only had to go back one page...one rolls is eyes while another says 2.5 year olds are the perfect target....

Trophy Sp. QDM is good for private individuals on private property that can regulate the number of hunters, number of does taken, their won AR, monitor the situation literally on a daily basis, create and fund habitat improvements yearly, this at their own choosing. 

QDM is poor for large scale public land and or unregulated/nonhunted private lands that can not set the number of hunters that harvest does and bucks, poor data and managment on a yearly basis. QDM is about management, not 5 year studies but daily and weekly management year in year out with strict regulations. 

I'll tell you a prime example of an area that has no AR yet has great management practices and is monitored daily and results work for everybody...Shiawassee!!! And I'm not sure what the ratio of bucks to does is there but I do know hunters see alot of deer and if they see 15 does 3 will be bucks.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2004)

beer and nuts said:


> I'll tell you a prime example of an area that has no AR yet has great management practices and is monitored daily and results work for everybody...Shiawassee!!! And I'm not sure what the ratio of bucks to does is there but I do know hunters see alot of deer and if they see 15 does 3 will be bucks.


A 5:1 buck to doe ratio is a "prime example" of a well managed deer herd? I can give you dozens of examples of deer managed by QDM where if a hunter sees 15 does he/she will also see 14 bucks.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2004)

beer and nuts said:


> QDM is poor for large scale public land and or unregulated/nonhunted private lands that can not set the number of hunters that harvest does and bucks, poor data and managment on a yearly basis. QDM is about management, not 5 year studies but daily and weekly management year in year out with strict regulations.


QDM is:
Balanced age structure
Balanced sex ratios
Maintaining a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions

I honestly think that you are confusing QDM with something entirely different.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

beer and nuts said:


> And I'm not sure what the ratio of bucks to does is there but I do know hunters see alot of deer and if they see 15 does 3 will be bucks.


That would be awesome if out of 15 does, 3 were bucks!!! That's a lot of antlered doe.  


And as far as you speaking for the majority. . . . 41% is not a majority, unless you work for the DNR.   :rant: 

And if QDM means taking a big buck every year to you, I guess it was a failure for me this year, but passing on bucks and taking a doe or two has some extreme satisfaction to it, but you would have to try it first. . . AND I SEE TO SOME, THAT FIRST STEP IS A DOOZY!! 

I am still looking forward to the rest of the season and getting that Omega out on a nice doe or buck. Good luck to all the rest of the season. 

Oh yeah, and as far as I'm concerned, making sure it has enough points can only increase safety and mistaken identity. You'll actually get to the point where you can judge on the hoof pretty quickly with enough experience. 

I know it's not for everybody, neither is exercise, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. :lol:


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

I take back my original post. Although B&N and Happy Hunter I am sure would really hit it off, I am sure that B&N and Linda G. make for a better match.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

It's out in the open now...


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> 6. You politely nod when you hear the expression "a nice 6-pointer", but on the inside, you are rolling your eyes. You know there is no such thing!
> 
> Most if not all six pointers in the NLP and UP are 2.5 year old deer! There is my example of contradiction and this I only had to go back one page...one rolls is eyes while another says 2.5 year olds are the perfect target....


Sorry, but that's far from,


> They take a 1.5 year old four point and get jumped on by QDM backers





> Most if not all six pointers in the NLP and UP are 2.5 year old deer!


Really? Data has shown that a 3 point to side AR will protect 50% of 1.5 year old bucks, even in N. MI.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

beer and nuts said:


> QDM is good for private individuals on private property....
> 
> QDM is poor for large scale public land....


That really discriminates against public land deer hunters. I for one believe that our public land deer hunting has the potential to be just as good as nearby private lands with similar habitat. If hunters would take or more active role in the managment of our public land deer herds such as with QDM, then those hunting oportunities would improve dramatically. Unfortunatly, if a yearling buck is passed up on public land, it will likely get shot by someone else. It's that fear of futility that makes volintarty QDM impractical on public lands. The only way it works is to make it the law, then you can be asured that if a yearling buck walks by you, if will live to grow older. QDM has been proven to work on public lands, it's that simple. 

The QDM proposal for the U.P. is not about shooting does at all. Wheather or not it passes muster, how the DNR issues antlerless permits in the U.P. will not be affected one bit. If it becomes law, there are no madates to address antlerless harvests. In fact, Superior Deer Managment Association lobbied sucessfully to have doe permits cut back and/or eliminated in areas where deer number could not support a doe harvest. SDMA's only supports doe harvests where needed. Rod Clute asured me during an interview I conducted with him two weeks ago that the proposal will not affect how they alot antlerless permits.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Trophy Specialist said:


> That really discriminates against public land deer hunters. *I for one believe that our public land deer hunting has the potential to be just as good as nearby private lands with similar habitat.* If hunters would take or more active role in the managment of our public land deer herds such as with QDM, then those hunting oportunities would improve dramatically. Unfortunatly, if a yearling buck is passed up on public land, it will likely get shot by someone else. It's that fear of futility that makes volintarty QDM impractical on public lands. The only way it works is to make it the law, then you can be asured that if a yearling buck walks by you, if will live to grow older. QDM has been proven to work on public lands, it's that simple.


Got that right!


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Ok you BELIEVE public land can be good and I BELIEVE that it will not, yours is not backed my any data except data off private lands that are managed daily weekly etc..food plots, limited hunters, exact doe and buck harvests, etc..game ranch style management(detailed micro parcel by parcel management).

"""Really? Data has shown that a 3 point to side AR will protect 50% of 1.5 year old bucks, even in N. MI."""-swamp

I'm trying to to understand this quote, does this mean or do you think all 1.5 year olds have 3 points on one side? OR does this say the other 50% of 1.5 years old have more than 3 points on one side? OR do you think that this protects one points, spikes, three points, four points, and five points? It sounds like to me you believe a majority of 6 points are 1.5 year olds and not 2.5 year olds!?!? If this is the case your dead wrong, MOST 6 points in the UP and and NLP are 2.5 year old deer.

If we make QDM law, than the DNR will be more active in deer checkins(get more accurate harvest data) manage lands by section-not by counties, food plots will increase on state lands, we will limit deer hunters on state land by permit draws, limit doe permits(yearling and mature does permits), etc.. RIGHT?!!? 

"""QDM has been proven to work on public lands, it's that simple""""-really? where has it been PROVEN to work? Clare?-all private land. Drummond Island?-wrong! PA?-not according to the PA Outdoor News web site and not PROVEN data has come out of PA for public land. 

Again typical Swamp trying to shake you out by comments like this """ I take back my original post. Although B&N and Happy Hunter I am sure would really hit it off, I am sure that B&N and Linda G. make for a better match""" I haven't had a "match" since Superman died!!!


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Here are some facts on the proposal and related deer antlers:

*A 3-point on a side rule in the U.P. WILL protect approximately 80% of the yearling bucks.

*The majority of 2.5 year old bucks have 7 points or more and it is rare for them to have only 6 points. In fact on my property and area, which is some of the worst habitat in the U.P., it is common that ALL 2.5 year old bucks will have 8 points in a given year.

So, with an 80% protection rate, 80% of the yearling bucks will be protected. Given that yearling bucks have very high survival rates the majority of those bucks will make it to next year to be available in the herd. Then there is a very common truth(to anybody that consistantly takes 2.5 year old bucks and knows and follows their patterns) that 2.5 year old bucks are much, much, harder to kill than one of the most inexperienced deer in the woods...the yearling buck. So, by protecting yearling bucks, studies have shown, even on public land such as in PA, that there will be an increase in 3.5 year old bucks as well.

Depending upon where you hunt,2.5 year old bucks are always appropriate harvest targets, but depending upon your personal skill level, experience, property control, and level of challenge you desire, 3.5 year old and older bucks can be a welcome "step-up", in challenge and fun to try and harvest. Bottom line though, we all like hunting and shooting deer, so to hold out for a 3.5 year old on public land when they represent 14% of the herd or less, with 1 day to hunt and scout, and 16 cars parked in your turn off, with many more cars in sight along the road and other turn-offs the immediate area, holding out for a 3.5 year old buck may not be very realistic for 1 day of hunting. 

So, if the U.P. proposal passes....we'll get older bucks and a better sex ratio. Anybody can see that. And anybody that can not count 3 points on a side before they shoot frankly either has a bad shot anyways, or can't see enough to be hunting in the woods anyways. It's very, very, very easy. Even my last buck in PA....I had about 6 seconds. Basically, heard a sound behind me, turned, saw a good buck running away from about 20 yards, stopped him with a "Nee" at about 75 yards, he turned, I could see him from the base of the neck up, centered the crosshairs below the throat patch...bang, dead buck.....all in about 5-6 seconds from the time I saw the deer to the time I shot....very, very, easy. Can't say I ever "counted" points, just saw a quiet a few, saw about a 15-16" spread, and shot, with no worries. You only need 3 on 1 side.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Here it is in a simple nutshell:

*A 3 point on a side rule protects 80% of the yearling bucks on public land

*Those bucks don't get shot

*That substantially raises the number of 2.5 year old bucks on public land

*That also raises the number of 3.5 year old bucks on public land especially considering most use bait and will have a more difficult time targeting 2.5 year old bucks with only relying on bait.

So, you get older bucks on public land....pretty simple.

Really, the only person this may discriminate against is the guy that rely's souly on bait to hunt on public land.....that hunter will have a much harder time targeting a 2.5 year old buck with just bait. They might be forced to try other hunting methods.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

NJ-no doubt alot of 2.5 year olds are 7-8 points, BUT most 6 points, thats 6 points from what I have seen in Roscommon and Drummond Island and other shot from buddies/buck poles whatever, are 2.5 year old deer - have 2 sets myself, one from Marquette and another Drummond and I have a 5 point as well that was aged 2.5 year old right at the North Higgins State Park area, they were all 115 plus dressed, no doubt 2.5 year old deer. I shot a 7point this year that was a 7 point(at least thats what I tagged, DNR at the checkin cringed on it, the brow was small but ring test was good!). Maybe your property and area round it is a tad different considering all the habitat and food plot work you have done, providing more food for antler growth for bucks all around you!


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

beer and nuts said:


> Ok you BELIEVE public land can be good and I BELIEVE that it will not, yours is not backed my any data except data off private lands that are managed daily weekly etc..food plots, limited hunters, exact doe and buck harvests, etc..game ranch style management(detailed micro parcel by parcel management).


You are dead wrong on that one. During a normal bow season I typically hunt about 50% of the time on public land in the U.P. Those spots I hunt are just about as good as on my own private land or I wouldn't hunt there. My 12 year old nephew shot a big buck on public land this fall with his bow. In past years before QDM became law, that spot he bowhunted was not even worth hunting as gun hunters shot just about every antlered buck there every year. This year, the fourth year of QDM laws in the central U.P., that area was crawling with bucks. While hunting there, my brother and his tow boys saw at least one mature buck each on every hunt. That spot is not an isolated situation eithor. If I had not filled my bucks tags during the first week of Oct. this year, I would have had many quality bowhunts on public lands all over the central U.P. just like I did last year. to say QDM will not work on public lands is just not true.


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## bowhuntingrules (Oct 20, 2004)

Brian S said:


> Its not doing the opposite that we're worried about.
> 
> I'm worried about:
> 
> ...


This sounds like it makes the most sense out of the 4 pages of comments posted. :rant:


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