# More powerfull 357 mag or 45 acp?



## swampstalker (Jan 4, 2005)

Ok, I own a 357 for personal protection and thought that it is more powerful than the 45 acp. Recently I've been looking at something in 45 and was thinking about power. Well I was on the internet looking at 45 power and found a site that showed the 45 to be more powerful than the 357. They used a formula (base bullet area in square inches times its weight is grains times velocity in fps devided by an arbitrary number,1000 to come up with a power rating.) http://www.gunthorp.com/ammo specs.htm They show the 45 to have a power rating of 31.24 with a 230 grain bullet and the 357 to have a power rating of 19.61 with a 158 grain bullet. I want to get input on this and find out what the real story is.


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

Pretty sure the 357 Mag beats the 45 ACP.

Here is a comparison from Federals site http://www.federalpremium.com/products/compare/handgun_compare.aspx

You can bend numbers to show a lot of things....


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## ajmorell (Apr 27, 2007)

IMO if you get shot with either you aren't going anywhere. Personally I think the .357 with the right bullet will leave just as big of hole on its way out as the 45


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## Big_Jim (Jul 26, 2000)

swampstalker said:


> Ok, I own a 357 for personal protection and thought that it is more powerful than the 45 acp. Recently I've been looking at something in 45 and was thinking about power. Well I was on the internet looking at 45 power and found a site that showed the 45 to be more powerful than the 357. They used a formula (base bullet area in square inches times its weight is grains times velocity in fps devided by an arbitrary number,1000 to come up with a power rating.) http://www.gunthorp.com/ammo specs.htm They show the 45 to have a power rating of 31.24 with a 230 grain bullet and the 357 to have a power rating of 19.61 with a 158 grain bullet. I want to get input on this and find out what the real story is.


I believe what your referring to is the formula for kinetic energy. It gives favor to the heavier weights because the weight is squared. There are other formulas that give favor to velocity. 

Which one is more powerful? I think your looking at it wrong. Instead of looking at which one has more "power", you need to look at proven effectiveness for the job the round is designed to do. The 357 and 45acp are both effective Self defense rounds with positives and negetives on both sides.

Many other factors come into play over power, such as capacity, controllability, platform, etc... when choosing a defensive round. If power was the only omportant thing, we'd all be shooting 500's. There are more important things than power alone..


If your talking about a hunting round, the the job and its criteria changes.


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## GhettoSportsman (Sep 30, 2009)

My Lyman pistol and revolver reloading handbook shows IPSC power factors. It lists the power factor of the 45 with a 230 fmj at 199.4 at the muzzle and the 357 with a 158 jhp of 202.1 at the muzzle. As you can see these are very close.

I searched through the book for the formula they used but it wasn't listed.

Big Jim gave some good advise. Spend your time making sure you can hit what you want, when you want, with what you have!!

I do though understand wanting to understand all the claims found on internet shooting sites!
Farther down the page you listed shows a link to this

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

you might want to check it out.


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

As stated Kinetic Energy increases with the square of velocity so faster calibers like .357 will show big gains vs low velocity like .45 ACP. Momemtum increases equally for bullet weight or velocity so a .45 will look better.

Kinetic Energy does not necessarily correlate directly to effectiveness, lots of junk science and 'stopping power' BS out there so be careful what you believe.

I handload for all calibers including .45 and .357; either will be more than enough if you ever have to use it at close range. Its more a question of revolver vs. semiauto in my mind.


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## HTC (Oct 6, 2005)

I think the formula you are reffering to is called the Taylor Knock Out value or TKO. A man named John Taylor developed the formula years ago in Africa which allows different rounds to be compared on a more equal basis instead of the old, "1000 ft/lb minimum for deer" way of doing it. It basically allows comparison of two completely different rounds on a level playing field. He assigned various numeric values to different animals and even people. If quotient of the round chosen met his minimum number you were good to go. The formula takes into account diameter, velocity and bullet weight in grains. The formula is interesting for sure. The link below has more background and a calculator.

http://www.rayguncharlie.net/sr/downloads/taylor.html


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

jmoser said:


> Kinetic Energy does not necessarily correlate directly to effectiveness, lots of junk science and 'stopping power' BS out there so be careful what you believe.


Amen to that.


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## roger23 (Jan 14, 2001)

with Ball Ammo I would take a 45 acp ,,we had .38 and 9 MM ,,and the 45 is what most of the guys I know preferred,,many guys had there own guns from home I had a 41 mag,,of coarse ball ammo:evil: a few used sawed off 12 ga barrels and stocks cut down,,shot placement is the key,,,a 22 cal behind the ears works,,,but who wants to get that close.


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## SNAREMAN (Dec 10, 2006)

Both are proven fight-stoppers and good choices for c/c/personal protection.It should really come down to which one you shoot the best.


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## DRHUNTER (Sep 15, 2002)

SNAREMAN said:


> Both are proven fight-stoppers and good choices for c/c/personal protection.It should really come down to which one you shoot the best.


Yep and with a .357 you can also shoot .38's to practice with.


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## Ron L (Nov 12, 2000)

There are reams of studies, paperwork, and arguments for each. Part of my opinion includes that whatever you use, you ought to be comfortable and good with it. What's that old saying, "I'd rather be missed with a 45 than hit with a 22" or something like that? Given that, you need to practice and if you practice enough, you need to have a gun that fits you best.

That having been said, IIRC, Evan Marshall did a lot of studies on actual shootings and one of the most effective or at least prolific stopping rounds was the 125 JHP out of a 357 Magnum. 

Adding to that as DRHUNTER mentioned, you can practice with 38 or 38+P, if I didn't already own a 357, I'd seriously consider one.


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

Ron L said:


> That having been said, IIRC, Evan Marshall did a lot of studies on actual shootings and one of the most effective or at least prolific stopping rounds was the 125 JHP out of a 357 Magnum.


Marshall and Sanow's 'Stopping Power statistics' have been thoroughly shot down by professional scholars and statisticians. Their research methodologies and assumptions were seriously flawed from an academic standpoint, at best their study is a collection of anecdotal reports. 

I'm not saying a .357 is not a good round but this is some of the 'junk science' I was referring to in my post above. Always check your sources with thorough background research of your own - anyone can publish in print or on the web, peer reviewed research studies are the only ones I usually spend any time reading and many of those.

FYI the .357 Sig caliber was developed specifically to mimic the 'famous' 125 gr / 1250 fps .357 Mag round trumpeted by M&S - long since left in the dust by .40 S&W and others.


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

Somebody (I cannot remember or quote the source at this time) once compiled a bunch of statistics from situations where police used deadly force. Stats showed that 90% of criminals shot once by a .357 were no longer threats (referred to as a "one shot stop"). 

The .45 fell somewhere in the range of 70 to 80% for one shot stops.


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## Flash (Jan 17, 2006)

lang49 said:


> Somebody (I cannot remember or quote the source at this time) once compiled a bunch of statistics from situations where police used deadly force. Stats showed that 90% of criminals shot once by a .357 were no longer threats (referred to as a "one shot stop").
> 
> The .45 fell somewhere in the range of 70 to 80% for one shot stops.


The Remington 125gr sjhp in .357 logged around 92-94% (1400 fps) one shot stops as reported by Marshall and Sanow. The Federal 230gr HP in .45 caliber logged in around 90-91% at 950 fps. Very little difference. Both have excellant stats in real life shootings with the specified rounds. Both require at least a 4" barrel to approximate their potential, with a 5" barrel maximizing velocity for the .45 and a 6" barrel pushing the 125gr .357 to around 1400-1450 fps. Both of these barrel lengths can be difficult for some to conceal - thus just the beginning of a myriad of compromises each makes regarding their own personal needs.

One needs to remember that the body is mainly fluid, thus the hydraulic effect of the projectile's design, size and speed all paly a role in the stoppage of an aggressive violent action. A small fast bullet can be as effective as a large slow bullet. Obviously placement is critical with center mass being the generally accepted preferred location.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Like Flash said, bullet placement is probably the most important factor, then I'd say using the right bullet for the job is a close second. A bullet that's designed to deliver the most amount of energy into the body like the new Hornady TAP.


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

Big_Jim said:


> I believe what your referring to is the formula for kinetic energy. It gives favor to the heavier weights because the *weight is squared*. There are other formulas that give favor to velocity.
> 
> Which one is more powerful? I think your looking at it wrong. Instead of looking at which one has more "power", you need to look at proven effectiveness for the job the round is designed to do. The 357 and 45acp are both effective Self defense rounds with positives and negetives on both sides.
> 
> ...


Actually it's the velocity that is squared: 







Energy = 1/2 mass times velocity squared.

But like you strongly put forth many other factors come into play other than kinetic energy.

For instance using this formula a 405 gr. 45/70 bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps generates at the muzzle 1519 ft.lbs. of energy BUT a 55 gr. bullet leaving a 220 Swift case at 4100 fps generates 2052 ft lbs of energy, nearly 25% more.

Which would rather face a charging bear with the 220 Swift or the 45/70? There is more to killing power than just kinetic energy. 

From: http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/customguns/calcnrg.html

Hoppe's no.10


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## swampstalker (Jan 4, 2005)

Ok sounds good. Thanks to all who commented. That is good info especially about anybody putting numbers together on the internet. Now knowing that what would you rather stop a black bear or mountain lion with, the 357 or the 45?


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

357 Mag.

I carry hydra shocks in the city and castcores in the woods


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## Wildone (Aug 8, 2008)

Rustyaxecamp said:


> 357 Mag.
> 
> I carry hydra shocks in the city and castcores in the woods


Check out these, I know guys how use these for deer hunting, nothing beats a good cast round. 

Buffalo Bore Heavy 38 SPL+p ammo 
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108


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## Wildone (Aug 8, 2008)

swampstalker said:


> Ok sounds good. Thanks to all who commented. That is good info especially about anybody putting numbers together on the internet. Now knowing that what would you rather stop a black bear or mountain lion with, the 357 or the 45?


 If looking for an all around handgun for 2 & 4 legged critters check out the 10MM.


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## Wildone (Aug 8, 2008)

Handgun Cartridge Power Chart

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm


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