# Wolves!!!This has been an absolute excellent week for Trappers and Sport-mans alike.



## Redbad (Apr 30, 2008)

Apparently the targeted number of 43 wolves was based on scientific management principles. If they sell 1200 licenses and get 43 wolves, the success rate would be around 4%. The management goal is spread over 3 management areas with a different quota in each management area -- it is not clear if there would be a unique license for each management area (think doe tags). It is also not clear if there will be a lottery for licenses (think elk, bear or turkey licenses). It is also not clear if a hunter is limited to one license or if a hunter can purchase multiple licenses (some folks have multiple nuisance wolves) and if the license is a trophy license (once per lifetime like the elk license is).

The season, as set up by the NRC, couples a very expensive license ($100), with a very low success rate (maximum 4%) with no guarantees that the wolves harvested will be the nuisance wolves that were the reason for the hunt in the first place. There has to be a better way to design a hunt.

I also don't think that having the wolf season during he firearms deer season is a good idea. There will be army of orange in the woods which will make predator hunting more difficult (and may increase poaching). Wolves breed in the January through March time frame, so if the goal is to control population this would be the time to do the hunt (during the coyote season).


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## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Redbad said:


> Apparently the targeted number of 43 wolves was based on scientific management principles. If they sell 1200 licenses and get 43 wolves, the success rate would be around 4%. The management goal is spread over 3 management areas with a different quota in each management area -- it is not clear if there would be a unique license for each management area (think doe tags). It is also not clear if there will be a lottery for licenses (think elk, bear or turkey licenses). It is also not clear if a hunter is limited to one license or if a hunter can purchase multiple licenses (some folks have multiple nuisance wolves) and if the license is a trophy license (once per lifetime like the elk license is).
> 
> The season, as set up by the NRC, couples a very expensive license ($100), with a very low success rate (maximum 4%) with no guarantees that the wolves harvested will be the nuisance wolves that were the reason for the hunt in the first place. There has to be a better way to design a hunt.
> 
> I also don't think that having the wolf season during he firearms deer season is a good idea. There will be army of orange in the woods which will make predator hunting more difficult (and may increase poaching). Wolves breed in the January through March time frame, so if the goal is to control population this would be the time to do the hunt (during the coyote season).


 I think its the perfect way to design the hunt for a number of reasons. 

The rules set forth are pretty forthright. There's no lottery. Ones not needed. One hunter gets only one tag. If you want to increase your chances of getting a wolf, spend the hard hours needed to learn their habits and in the area you want to hunt them to be one of the first 43. If you want to know how that's done, follow the posts on here and get an idea from experienced trappers and and successful die hard predator callers. Believe me, nuisance wolves that have a set pattern should be the easiest ones to trap or hunt.

The price of the tag is more than reasonable with most opportunies that one would have to take a wolf in North America. Have you see what the prices are in Idaho or other states? 

Poachers are opportunists that do it before, during and outside of seasons of any nature. There is well documented history of that all the way back to when bear and/or deer could be taken at the same time- even with the same license.

If you have been following anything in the outdoors as it goes to trapping and canines you'll understand why the season is a perfect time. There are fewer hound dogs to get caught in traps set for wolf or shot by being mistaken for a wolf during the deer season -no one is running them then.

How does only putting the hunt during a mating season best control the population where the number to be taken is fixed and a hunt shuts down when the numbers reached? What scientific method came to the conclusion that the best way to control a population is by only hunting and trapping the horniest ones which are the first to step in a trap or come to a call? You do realize that in a wolf pack usually only the alpha male ans alpha female are allowed to breed, right? 




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## Redbad (Apr 30, 2008)

I posted my questions before the DNR updated their web page on the wolf hunt with all of the answers to my questions.



> If you have been following anything in the outdoors as it goes to trapping and canines you'll understand why the season is a perfect time. There are fewer hound dogs to get caught in traps set for wolf or shot by being mistaken for a wolf during the deer season -no one is running them then.
> 
> How does only putting the hunt during a mating season best control the population where the number to be taken is fixed and a hunt shuts down when the numbers reached? What scientific method came to the conclusion that the best way to control a population is by only hunting and trapping the horniest ones which are the first to step in a trap or come to a call? You do realize that in a wolf pack usually only the alpha male ans alpha female are allowed to breed, right?


If the goal of the season is to kill wolves, breeding or otherwise, then the season might work. If the goal of the season is to control the population of wolves, then hunting or trapping during the breeding season, when alpha males/females can be identified and killed would be the time to do it.

Hunting predators is difficult enough when the hunter has a one person set up and no other humans are in the area. Canines have very good senses of smell and tend to avoid humans, which means that when the army of orange is out in the woods it may be very difficult to get a shot off at a wolf, which is my point.


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## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Redbad said:


> I posted my questions before the DNR updated their web page on the wolf hunt with all of the answers to my questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Redbad,

Please identify for me the physical characteristics of an alpha male or alpha female.



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## Ggb (Mar 14, 2013)

Seaarkshooter said:


> Redbad,
> 
> Please identify for me the physical characteristics of an alpha male or alpha female.
> 
> ...


They're the ones with the fraternity T-shirts.


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## BVW (Jul 25, 2002)

Seaarkshooter said:


> Redbad,
> 
> Please identify for me the physical characteristics of an alpha male or alpha female.
> 
> ...


Alpha wolves can be identified by how they carry themselves, and they tend to have a raised tail. But if the pack is not together this could be difficult to tell where a Wolf ranks in the pack , and i don't think too many of the fortunate hunters who are lucky to have a tag will care of course  But i think redbads point is if the season was solely for population control there would be better ways to achive this goal.. I think time will tell what works best for wolf managment in Michigan . I am sure as the years go by the season will evolve. I'm very pleased they are giving it a chance, and but like others said, it will always see oposition from antis and people that want to protect cute things. Would not surprise me if Anti groups take hunters safety and fund a "Wolf tag buy and burn program" . I can see them waiting in line with signs and trying to be first to snatch up as many tags as possible before hunters do.


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## Anish (Mar 6, 2009)

Northwood lures said:


> The only trapping I would have ever done in the up is with the aid of a #6 and if I caught a wolf... oh well. Lots of brush piles to stuff that sucker if he gets caught
> Michigan is trying to keep the wolves alive and well is how I am reading this last post. While I might trap the area ... I wouldn't ever report a kill because I would never leave the woods with one.


 
Now that's some ethical trapping for you!  :nono: :irked:


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## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

BVW said:


> Alpha wolves can be identified by how they carry themselves, and they tend to have a raised tail. But if the pack is not together this could be difficult to tell where a Wolf ranks in the pack , and i don't think too many of the fortunate hunters who are lucky to have a tag will care of course  But i think redbads point is if the season was solely for population control there would be better ways to achive this goal.. I think time will tell what works best for wolf managment in Michigan . I am sure as the years go by the season will evolve. I'm very pleased they are giving it a chance, and but like others said, it will always see oposition from antis and people that want to protect cute things. Would not surprise me if Anti groups take hunters safety and fund a "Wolf tag buy and burn program" . I can see them waiting in line with signs and trying to be first to snatch up as many tags as possible before hunters do.


 Very rarely do we go into a season with one or two objectives anymore Those days are long gone. Our natural resources are a valued and limited commodity which many sportsman want access to, often in their own varying and particular ways. Regardless of what the reasons are for going into one, the politics of how it's going to be managed for the biggest social, financial and scientific gains are just the politics. I know this is rhetorical to you and you've been around awhile. It's the newbies that need to understand this.

As far as the antis taking classes, great!!!
One more crack for me in trying to persuade them and show them the error of their ways. They want to buy tags? Better yet! Let them fund too the conservation efforts to control the numbers. Hunters and trappers are going to take them in the end anyways. 

I'm a little tired of watching birdwatchers, bicyclist and the rest of them using the natural resources that we pay for,use them for free. 

Don't worry, when the season totals don't come in right away we get a longer season! Then, the odds become better for the people who are truly out trying to harvest them.



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## BVW (Jul 25, 2002)

Seaarkshooter said:


> Very rarely do we go into a season with one or two objectives anymore Those days are long gone. Our natural resources are a valued and limited commodity which many sportsman want access to, often in their own varying and particular ways. Regardless of what the reasons are for going into one, the politics of how it's going to be managed for the biggest social, financial and scientific gains are just the politics. I know this is rhetorical to you and you've been around awhile. It's the newbies that need to understand this.
> 
> As far as the antis taking classes, great!!!
> One more crack for me in trying to persuade them and show them the error of their ways. They want to buy tags? Better yet! Let them fund too the conservation efforts to control the numbers. Hunters and trappers are going to take them in the end anyways.
> ...


Good point... I am just waiting to see the creative ways antis try to interupt the season. We all know they are not going to give up that easy.


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## North wind (Oct 19, 2009)

This is nothing more than trying to keep both sides happy with a nudge to the hunters. Give the hunters a season and give the wolf people a small number. This isn't about population control or the season and numbers would be way different. 

You couldn't eliminate them now if you wanted to short of poison, snares etc... BTW, I have no problems having wolves here.


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## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

BVW said:


> Good point... I am just waiting to see the creative ways antis try to interupt the season. We all know they are not going to give up that easy.


 I have it on very good authority that as early as last month, four weeks ago, they were hashing out plans to determine where they were going to get additional canvassers during the Summer, Fall and early Winter to hit more areas in Michigan for the higher percentage of needed signatures required to either go after this past bill or create law by a petition initiative. I only hope that the events of the last week and how fast it went through left a good impression on them. I hope they feel defeated enough to realize that the much steeper hill they would have to climb now may not be worth it on wolves.

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## Beaverhunter2 (Jan 22, 2005)

Seaarkshooter said:


> I think its the perfect way to design the hunt for a number of reasons.
> 
> Poachers are opportunists that do it before, during and outside of seasons of any nature. There is well documented history of that all the way back to when bear and/or deer could be taken at the same time- even with the same license.
> 
> ...


Poachers will be taking a serious risk (i.e. shooting a wolf before season and then bringing it in once the seaon is open.) The DNR can tell how long an animal is dead by measuring the pupil.

Dennis, I have to disagree with you on the timing with respect to trapping- I'm not sure they could have picked a worse opening day. How many MB750's are going to get "found" by deer hunters and go missing? At $30 each for good wolf traps anyone trying to trap public land better bring some spare traps and it's going to get expensive. December 1 would have been a MUCH better choice. Even November 1 (which was the DNR's original proposal) would have been better than 11/15.

Still- we've got a season and they included public land. It's rare we get EVERYTHING we ask for....

I'm happy.

JMO

John


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## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Beaverhunter2 said:


> Poachers will be taking a serious risk (i.e. shooting a wolf before season and then bringing it in once the seaon is open.) The DNR can tell how long an animal is dead by measuring the pupil.
> 
> Dennis, I have to disagree with you on the timing with respect to trapping- I'm not sure they could have picked a worse opening day. How many MB750's are going to get "found" by deer hunters and go missing? At $30 each for good wolf traps anyone trying to trap public land better bring some spare traps and it's going to get expensive. December 1 would have been a MUCH better choice. Even November 1 (which was the DNR's original proposal) would have been better than 11/15.
> 
> ...


 I'm a non-target concerned kind a guy about all of this. I have concerns that every deer hunter that has an opportunity with a wolf tag is going to ring a circle of footholds surrounding a gut pile. That's a vision of raptor problems i'm trying not to imagine. Personally, I want nothing to do with the flea bags. My only stake in this fight has been that somebody wouldn't get the opportunity to have their wolf problems taken care of before someone gets hurt.

Hopefully, every beaver trapper in the state either sells, rents or lets borrow traps to every one that needs them. Better yet, I hope that there's a bunch of NLP beaver trappers that uses their footholds themselves in November and December in the U.P. I could use a beaver dam or lodge all to myself as an early Christmas present.



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## Beaverhunter2 (Jan 22, 2005)

That would be another reason to avoid a 11/15 wolf opener (deer hunters setting around gut piles). However I think that most of them will not have any steel and won't spend the $ for wolf traps. I also think the DNR is hedging their bets. They know that a lot of UP deer hunters will buy licenses on the outside chance they may stumble across a wolf and the DNR wants to be absolutely certain they sell all the licenses. I'm wondering if they are going to hit their quota. I wouldn't be surprised if the December trapping season is what is going to make the difference.

As far as wolf hunting and trapping, I'd like to go after one someday- after the dust settles and the Yoopers get a crack at them. Watch-starting in 2014 they will implement a lottery and it will take decades to get a tag! :lol:

John


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## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Another reason I want it to be on November 15th would be the additional man aversion training that would be provided when wolves hear a gunshot and come back hours later to dine on a gut pile only to find a trap waiting for them. That type of stimulus response of watching one of their own dangle from a chain near a human killed animal with the smell of human scent still around is sure to leave a long-term reminder to animals with such a high intelligence. 

Again, here another example its so difficult for the DNR to manage seasons anymore. The information age has provided us all with his ability to comment, analyze and have input to wildlife management issues at the speed of light. We all have our reasons as to why we feel the resource should be managed in a particular way. Not nearly the scenario they were dealing with in the 60's, 70's and before.

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## North wind (Oct 19, 2009)

Beaverhunter2 said:


> Dennis, I have to disagree with you on the timing with respect to trapping- I'm not sure they could have picked a worse opening day.


I agree!


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I'm sure there's exceptions to the rule, but I know a number of very reputable trappers, and none of them would put steel out for deer hunters to run into on opening day, most in fact PULL their entire line for that two week season...

Why? They don't want liability issues and they don't want their traps stolen. 

I also think the selected date for opening a wolf season is a bad one, but I haven't really read the DNR's reasoning for doing so yet. Maybe there's a legitimate reason.


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## Black Powder Trapper (Feb 15, 2008)

The wolf season is not just a trapping season but a hunting and trapping season and the NRC wanted to give the UP hunters to have a chance to harvest a wolf while deer hunting.

When the NRC took testimony from Wisconsin and Minnesota I believe that both had there seasons were open for deer season. Originally our season was going to open November first but when public land was opened for trapping I think that they moved it to the 15th to avoid grouse dogs with the larger traps.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Oh, I'm well aware that it's also a hunting season for wolves...are you a trapper willing to put down steel while all those orange coated one day a year hunters are zinging bullets around you? Would you mind risking the liability potential or a few of what I would assume are fairly pricey traps to those same one day a year deer hunters who might accidentally step in one??

Cause I don't know of any trappers that would do that.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Redbad said:


> Apparently the targeted number of 43 wolves was based on scientific management principles. If they sell 1200 licenses and get 43 wolves, the success rate would be around 4%. The management goal is spread over 3 management areas with a different quota in each management area -- it is not clear if there would be a unique license for each management area (think doe tags). It is also not clear if there will be a lottery for licenses (think elk, bear or turkey licenses). It is also not clear if a hunter is limited to one license or if a hunter can purchase multiple licenses (some folks have multiple nuisance wolves) and if the license is a trophy license (once per lifetime like the elk license is).
> 
> The season, as set up by the NRC, couples a very expensive license ($100), with a very low success rate (maximum 4%) with no guarantees that the wolves harvested will be the nuisance wolves that were the reason for the hunt in the first place. There has to be a better way to design a hunt.
> 
> I also don't think that having the wolf season during he firearms deer season is a good idea. There will be army of orange in the woods which will make predator hunting more difficult (and may increase poaching). Wolves breed in the January through March time frame, so if the goal is to control population this would be the time to do the hunt (during the coyote season).


It's all in here. Public land is 28% west end, 45% baraga area, 45% mackinac area. Goals are listed too.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/WCO_No._6_of_2013_-_Wolf_Regs_416487_7.pdf


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