# What's a good AR-15?



## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

I did a search and didn't find a thread on it. Which surprises me so I probably can't search that well.

A guy at work said these were decent brands. Knight, Sig, S&W. I've also seen DMPS, Bushmaster, and Colt.

I'm looking for dependability, accuracy, and a moderate price. Obviously I want it all. Cheap, and take 1000 yds shots with a short barrell for home defense. Not like to happen so I need to find that balance. I would like a collaspable(sp?) stock, and a rail to mount a scope or open sights with a red or green dot.

Please post up some thoughts.

Joe


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

Go to ar15.com and spend a few days reading the threads and the information posted in stickies at the top of each forum. The stickies in the "ar15 rifles, uppers, lowers, etc." are especially good. No one could possibly give you enough unbiased information in a post or two without typing in a book.


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

And don't forget to come back in a few weeks and tell us what you bought. For budgeting purposes plan 3 times the budget you think you want to spend the first year, and then double it.


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

brookie1 said:


> And don't forget to come back in a few weeks and tell us what you bought. For budgeting purposes plan 3 times the budget you think you want to spend the first year, and then double it.


Is that because of all the add on toys?

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## cedarlkDJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Socks said:


> I did a search and didn't find a thread on it. Which surprises me so I probably can't search that well.
> 
> A guy at work said these were decent brands. Knight, Sig, S&W. I've also seen DMPS, Bushmaster, and Colt.
> 
> ...


http://www.ar15.com/forums/b/3_AR_15.html

http://www.m4carbine.net/forum.php


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

boostfan said:


> Is that because of all the add on toys?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Yes. First, you will hate the trigger, so that's an easy but expensive replacement. You will try different stocks and end up with one or more extra buffer tubes and springs, as well as stocks that were "ok" but you wanted something different. Then there's the free floating rail if the model you chose didn't come with it. Little stuff like a new grip, larger trigger guide, extended mag release maybe, new places to attach a sling, etc. Then there's the optics. You will end up with at least 2 or 3 because you want something different or saw something cool. Don't forget 10 to 20 mags and ammo delivered by the 1000 round case. Then there's specific tools and cleaning supplies and extra parts like springs and pins. You will need a big case for all this stuff as well and it needs to have the word "tactical" in the name.

Ok, you thought you were done. Nope. I decided to deer hunt with mine but needed a larger caliber. So I bought a new 6.8 spc upper along with a Larue Tactical mount and Leupold vx3 scope with a lighted rectical. And of course more ammo and mags for the new caliber.

Now maybe a piston system for the 5.56......


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## cedarlkDJ (Sep 2, 2002)

brookie1 said:


> Yes. First, you will hate the trigger, so that's an easy but expensive replacement. You will try different stocks and end up with one or more extra buffer tubes and springs, as well as stocks that were "ok" but you wanted something different. Then there's the free floating rail if the model you chose didn't come with it. Little stuff like a new grip, larger trigger guide, extended mag release maybe, new places to attach a sling, etc. Then there's the optics. You will end up with at least 2 or 3 because you want something different or saw something cool. Don't forget 10 to 20 mags and ammo delivered by the 1000 round case. Then there's specific tools and cleaning supplies and extra parts like springs and pins. You will need a big case for all this stuff as well and it needs to have the word "tactical" in the name.
> 
> Ok, you thought you were done. Nope. I decided to deer hunt with mine but needed a larger caliber. So I bought a new 6.8 spc upper along with a Larue Tactical mount and Leupold vx3 scope with a lighted rectical. And of course more ammo and mags for the new caliber.
> 
> Now maybe a piston system for the 5.56......


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

I didn't realize I was beating a dead horse with that post. Sorry to take up your time.


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## cedarlkDJ (Sep 2, 2002)

brookie1 said:


> I didn't realize I was beating a dead horse with that post. Sorry to take up your time.


It wasn't meant at you!!!!....you are dead on!....the obsession never stops!
I guess just my sick sense of humor!.....I could just see the debate coming!


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

Hopefully the references to the other sites will stop any debate before it starts. I was just pointing out to boostfan why a budget is important. And it was from personal experience unfortunately.:lol:


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## Spoiler (May 28, 2011)

Here's mine...bushmaster lower, MandA parts built to upper. I bought it part by part and put it together myself. I got 800 into minus the scope.








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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

> What's a good AR-15?


All are good but none of them are cheap.
JP Enterprises
Les Baer
LMT
Knight


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

Thanks for the info everyone. I checked out the ar15 site and oh jeez what an overload. I did read the FAQ's. Got some good info there. I think that it's more than what I want. I have some decisions to make. i.e. getting a pistols each for me and the wife or a ar15 for home defense. I like the idea of pistols, but I honestly don't think she'll carry for various reasons and it'd be kind of hard for me too also because of what we do for a living.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I had a colt back before the AR craze.......Not I am wanting the Remington R-25 in .308. Anybody have one of those. good/bad ?


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

If it has the initials LMT (Lewis Machine & Tool) on the gun, you can buy with confidence.


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## cedarlkDJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Swamp Monster said:


> If it has the initials LMT (Lewis Machine & Tool) on the gun, you can buy with confidence.


or BCM (Bravo Company Manufacturing) the two closest to mil-spec to the Colt (only they know the mil-spec...Military Specifications...and it's a Colonel Sanders like secret recipe!) Luv2's suggestions of Les Baer and Knight are in-house custom built and highly regarded 1911 gunsmiths and are the best!! but, very expensive! Any 'good' AR is fine and can be had for $1000.00 or under. For just home-defense and target I would check out Gunbrokers and see what things are going for and then check out your local GS and tell them what you can get this or that for and they might give you a deal on what they have? but, they usually don't stay in stock to long and are their top seller! I'm a newb at the AR/M4 but had the confidence to build my own and I love it!....BCM upper and LMT lower!


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

Socks said:


> I checked out the ar15 site and oh jeez what an overload.


Lol. The choices are almost infinite and growing all the time.


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## cedarlkDJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Socks said:


> I think that it's more than what I want. I have some decisions to make. i.e. getting a pistols each for me and the wife or a ar15 for home defense. I like the idea of pistols, but I honestly don't think she'll carry for various reasons and it'd be kind of hard for me too also because of what we do for a living.


A lot of soul searching there! and nobody can tell you what to do! Sounds like you just need a good dog! but?......think about it!....hand guns close range(in the house) practice, practice, practice......and then you'll want two!...larger caliber for you and smaller caliber for her!....wheel gun or auto?....then what if the SHTF?....are hand guns enough?..... can you get your food with a handgun?...I don't mean to sound negative but, to many variables on what you 'think' you want!


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## DaGuy (Jan 13, 2011)

Actually there are many ARs that go bang every time with acceptable accuracy. While its nice to have a custom built none of the mil-spec ARs are (except maybe a couple of the elite operator groups). Bells and whistles can be nice but the basic weapon is the key for reliability. Bushmaster, DPMS, Rock River, S&W, Colt, Sig and others all get good reviews but how much do you want to spend? JP Enterprises, Les Baer, LMT, Knight, Wilson and others are high quality but may be more than you would have to spend to get good accuracy and reliability. Buy one and shoot it, just don't marry it until it proves that it will be there for you.

Stay away from carbon fiber. While it may be space age material it usually has stone age reliability.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

Probably the best deal out there for a "budget" AR is the S&W M&P Sporter. $699 if I'm not mistaken. It does not have the forward assist, dust cover, and chrome lined barrel but who cares.....

Sent from my LG-P925


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## SgtClaymore (Jan 26, 2012)

Spoiler said:


> Here's mine...bushmaster lower, MandA parts built to upper. I bought it part by part and put it together myself. I got 800 into minus the scope.
> View attachment 15907
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I too have this one and man let me tell ya it's a bad mama jamma!


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## Groo (Apr 6, 2012)

KeithD said:


> Wh not use a carbine for home defense? By shooting the neighbors do you mean the risk of over penatration? How many sheets of dry wall will lets say a 55 gr TAP go through? Just curious on what ballistic reports you've seen to base your opinion on.
> 
> The big difference between a DPMS, Bushy, and Colt is not the trigger. Yes its true that you will get the different feels but thats not the most important factor. The most important factor between those are manufacturing, inspection and testing, bin 1 and 2 parts vs 3 and 4. ect.
> 
> Theres a reason a 600 dollar AR is 600 dollars...


a .223 will penetrate more layers of drywall than say a 9mm, but because the round is so velocity dependent to be deadly, the 9mm is actually more dangerous once both have gone through a wall.


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## KeithD (Mar 8, 2010)

Groo said:


> a .223 will penetrate more layers of drywall than say a 9mm, but because the round is so velocity dependent to be deadly, the 9mm is actually more dangerous once both have gone through a wall.


 
So your saying that a 55 gr hornady tap round will go through more sheets of dry wall than a nine mike round... hmmm interesting. 

Where have you seen these reports?


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## KeithD (Mar 8, 2010)

Groo said:


> a .223 will penetrate more layers of drywall than say a 9mm, but because the round is so velocity dependent to be deadly, the 9mm is actually more dangerous once both have gone through a wall.


 
The Call-Out Bag by Gunsite Training Center Staff 
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers


The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability. 

Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics. 

Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls. 

The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building: 

A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position. 
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1. 
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.) D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the
shooter.) 

All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files. 

The following results were obtained: 

1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning. 
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets. 
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles. 
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through. 

The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight! 

Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test. 

.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2 
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2 
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2 
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2 
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2 
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2


ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON'S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.


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## KeithD (Mar 8, 2010)

Another test of .223 starting to fragment after penetrating the first sheet of dry wall. While the pistol calibers continue through multiple.


Some good reading, check it out

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-(Adpat)&


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## fish_AK (Nov 10, 2009)

Grouse Hunter said:


> If you want something out of the box at a good price, Rock River and Stag are excellent choices.


My stag has been nothin but accurate and reliable for me.

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## kgpcr (Apr 25, 2012)

DPMS makes a great AR. its hard not to pick up another one at the price they are going for. I dont need another one but you can never have to many!


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

New Bushmaster Carbon AR15 for $699, is that a good value? I am sure there are incer AR's for more money, I am simply looking for a good value. I can often find Colt's for an extra $80 but not sure if it is a nicer gun. Bottom line is that I think I will not be able to buy one in the near future, so I want one now, and I can't afford a couple grand.


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## Dubllung4 (Dec 29, 2009)

For $699 I would go with a DPMS Sportical/Oracle or a M&P Sport, I am not a fan of the plastic Bushmasters.


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## fishing-finlander (Sep 30, 2008)

Stag Arms, Buddy's got one, Guns and Ammo say they are the most accurate A.R. made for its price 700-800...He's got a left hand one, fully railed out, adjustable stock, cheek piece, fore grip, case and cleaning kit...got it at TOP GUNN in Taylor


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## fish_AK (Nov 10, 2009)

fishing-finlander said:


> Stag Arms, Buddy's got one, Guns and Ammo say they are the most accurate A.R. made for its price 700-800...He's got a left hand one, fully railed out, adjustable stock, cheek piece, fore grip, case and cleaning kit...got it at TOP GUNN in Taylor


Again, I love my stag too. With a 4x acog ive shot sub 1/2" 3 shot groups. Not consistantly, but ive done it many times...

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## Martinp26 (Apr 23, 2011)

Just bought a dpms oracle at cabelas last week for 699.99. I put a Nikon p-223 scope on it which was 199.99 and im groupin very good at 100yds. 200 yards using the BDC was gr8 as well. Im using Hornady v-max 55grain. Just waitin to call a coyote in for the first time so i can v-MAX his ass!!!

i let 20 rounds go in a flash and the gun worked very good. ive shot steal case bullets out of it and let it rip with no problems. Damn good gun for the money. If anyone heard gun shots all day last sunday out in gladwin, THAT WAS ME!!!!


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## FredBearYooper (Oct 5, 2009)

cedarlkDJ said:


> I guess millions in use by the military and law enforcement aren't good enough for them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We don't use 5.56 for its knock down power...because it doesn't have any. We have to use it because NATO views it as a more humane way to kill someone...if that makes any sense..a lot of times guys will take a round from an M4 and keep on trucking. Saw a guy all hoped up on hashish take a round to the head and keep running. The 5.56 likes to travel long bones and do a lot of internal damage. It cause crazy entry and exit wounds. Saw one round hit a guy in the ankle and exit out of his hip. On the other hand 7.62 has tremendous knockdown power and will leave some pretty knarly exit wounds.


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## jathward (Jul 31, 2011)

Check out RockRiver Arms. You wont be disappointed ....

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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

jathward said:


> Check out RockRiver Arms. You wont be disappointed ....
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I thought they were ridiculously expensive, but not to bad. It does have me looking at the 308's though

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## cedarlkDJ (Sep 2, 2002)

FredBearYooper said:


> We don't use 5.56 for its knock down power...because it doesn't have any. We have to use it because NATO views it as a more humane way to kill someone...if that makes any sense..a lot of times guys will take a round from an M4 and keep on trucking. Saw a guy all hoped up on hashish take a round to the head and keep running. The 5.56 likes to travel long bones and do a lot of internal damage. It cause crazy entry and exit wounds. Saw one round hit a guy in the ankle and exit out of his hip. On the other hand 7.62 has tremendous knockdown power and will leave some pretty knarly exit wounds.


Nothing better than real, hands on experience!.....Thank You! for your service!


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

swampbuck said:


> I had a colt back before the AR craze.......Not I am wanting the Remington R-25 in .308. Anybody have one of those. good/bad ?


R-25 in .243 for me, much better, longer range.


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