# HB4867 Passes House and Senate



## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

A bill was sent to the governors desk for signature on May 27 to eliminte concealed carry on DNR run land--looks like we might be able to carry under CPL in the "woods" no matter what activity we are engaged in--that is if Jennifer signs it.

See the MCRGO site for more info: HB 4867 

Steve


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I think you will find that bill has to do with location, not activity.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

I am not a legal expert, but paragrah 3 states "land under the control" of the department....to me that means state game areas as well as state parks. The bill goes on to say that the department will not create or enforce any laws contrary to the concealed carry law on these lands.

Just presenting the news as I really do not have an opinion one way or the other on this issue.

View the bill in its entirity here 

Steve


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

The bill is now law (as of its signing last week). Read about it on the MCRGO web site at: Concealed Carry and Hunting .

To me this reads that the DNR can not superceed any of the CCW law--the only prohibited areas are as listed in the amended law. No mention of activities (hunting). I really have no strong opinions for or against this. Ray, how do you feel about this and what is your interpretation?

Steve


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

As I stated above the law has to do with locations, not activities. It does away with parks rules and such that prohibited weapons in state parks etc. Much of the bill, in my opinion, was window dressing because since the new CCW law passed, I don't know of any locations where it was enforced that one couldn't carry anyway.

but

As for example, if you are bow hunting during bow season and you are carrying a pistol even with a CCW, you are still going to get arrested.


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## fatboy (May 8, 2002)

Thanks for the response. I have not agreed with the current law that a person cannot carry while bowhunting.But then that's why we have people alot smarter than me making the laws !(I hope so anyways) :rant:


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## answerguy8 (Oct 15, 2001)

fatboy said:


> Thanks for the response. I have not agreed with the current law that a person cannot carry while bowhunting.But then that's why we have people alot smarter than me making the laws !(I hope so anyways) :rant:


Smarter than you? I thought that they were politicians.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

Boehr-

Realizing it is a moot point with me as I probably wouldn't choose to carry for whatever reason while Bow Hunting....the analysis of the bill done by the House Fiscal Agency states:

*The bill would amend Part 435 (Hunting and Fishing Licensing) of the Natural Resources and Environmental Act to specify that the NREPA or a rule or order issued by the DNR or the Natural Resources Commission could not be construed to prohibit a person from transporting a pistol or carrying a loaded pistol if the person possesses a license issued under the CCW law, or the person is authorized to carry a concealed pistol without a license. This, however, would not authorize the use of a pistol to take or attempt to take a wild animal except as provided by law.*
*MCL 324.43510 and 4351*

These are not my words but the actual analysis of the law that is provided to help those of our legislators who may not be able to comprehend the "legalese" of many of the bills. I understand it might be the viewpoint of the DNR that the carrying is prohibited still...but the courts might view it differently. This speaks directly to activity not location.

Please don't take this as an attack on you or your knowledge of the law, as you know I have the utmost respect for both. Every source that I have read or heard has said that this bill would supersede any existing legal basis for the DNR to cite someone who is legal to carry a concealed weapon while afield.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

NEMichsportsman...that is exactly correct. In fact, that particular law in the Hunting and Fishing Licensing Part has not been enforced since the change of the shall issue law in 2002 or was it 2003, whatever it was, the first law. That section refers to the law that states "a person must have a license to possess a firearm in an area frequented by wild game". Before, you didn't have to be hunting, shooting or killing anything, just the fact that you possed a firearm required you to have a hunting license. Now instead of CO's just not enforcing that part it is a law that you don't have to have a hunting license just to carry you pistol providing you have a concealed weapons permit (again location you are in not activity). Obviously, if you were to shoot a groundhog or anything else with your pistol you would still need a hunting license (ah you are engaging in an activity then).

As to the arguement about bow hunting and state lands. Using the reasoning by some would mean if I bow hunt on state lands I could carry. If I bow hunt on private lands I can't carry. That in itself makes the bow hunting arguement seem a little off. This is not my interpetation of this law. The impact of this law was discussed with the legal and policy section prior to the law even passing both the House and Senate. The activity requirements, bow hunting, muzzleloading, turkey hunting, none of those laws changed. What the DNR can't do is say you can't walk in a state park or recreation area with a vaild CCW and your pistol. Not like the locations that are previous set by the law where you can't carry your pistol, school zones etc. I don't know why it is so difficult for some to understand even when they read the actual law.


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## SPH (Jan 20, 2004)

I understand the law and don't really care about debating it as Ray is a DNR representative and he says it is illegal(done). But, it would be much easier to understand if they would just say *You can not carry a side-arm while bow hunting even if you possess a CCW.* It is obviously a little gray or there would not be questions.

50% of the hunters that I now think it is legal to carry a side-arm with a CCW permit even after reading the law. The other 50% don't know or don't care as it does not pertain to them.

Just my thoughts as it is as confusing to me as it is to the others that posted here.

Sean


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I agree, it would be easier but nobody ever said life was easy.


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## answerguy8 (Oct 15, 2001)

SPH said:


> 50% of the hunters that I now think it is legal to carry a side-arm with a CCW permit even after reading the law. The other 50% don't know or don't care as it does not pertain to them.


In the end, the only opinion that will matter will be a judges.


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## umas911 (Sep 19, 2003)

answerguy8 said:


> In the end, the only opinion that will matter will be a judges.


 That is true i guess we will have to wait and see for the first case.


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## ID-Birddog (Mar 9, 2004)

I think you Michigan boys just need to lobby for a law change if you wish to carry handguns while archery hunting. I think the current law is pretty clear, no firearms period while archery hunting. I'm in law enforcement here in Idaho and our laws allow carrying handguns while archery hunting, (concealed or open, with or without a permit) We do not have a big problem with people shooting animals then claiming they took it with an arrow. The wound characteristics are just too obvious. 
I have to review the michigan laws carefully when I make trips back there because michigan is so restrictive. I hate having to case a wet shotgun after bird hunting to transport it instead of just leaving it out on the seat next to me, but those are your laws and i respect them when I'm there.


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## SPH (Jan 20, 2004)

I was not debating the legalities of this issue just stating that it is hard for most to interpret the law as stated.

The only problem that I have with this law is that every other person in the woods is allowed to carry a gun during bow season except for bow hunters. If poaching is the reason for this law than it would make sense that no one should be allowed to carry firearms into the field during archery season. What makes a turkey or coyote hunter any less likely to take a deer unethically than a bow hunter?


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

Because a Turkey hunter is hunting turkeys Not deer. A Coyote Hunter is hunting coyotes not deer, A archery deer hunter is hunting deer, and having a firearm with him might be tempting, at least that's the way I unserstand it, Although I tend to give people more credit than the DNR does if this is the reason you can't be armed with a firearm during archery season. If it isn't then I am really confused


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Who said you could for turkey hunting?  

I'll send you back here for the different laws that *still* are in effect.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19784&highlight=handgun

I personally don't care if they change the law but right now it is the law and my only purpose is to provide fellow hunters with the information to help keep them out of trouble and not make a mistake. Nothing forces anyone to heed the advice, your choice. :evil:


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## umas911 (Sep 19, 2003)




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## SPH (Jan 20, 2004)

I was not stating handguns only. 

And as for the coyote hunters only hunt coyotes, turkey hunters only hunt turkey's that is a very naive statement. If that statement were true than bow hunters would only shoot deer with a bow and this would not even be a topic of discussion.


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

Randy Kidd said:


> A archery deer hunter is hunting deer,


 :evil:


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

SPH said:


> I What makes a turkey or coyote hunter any less likely to take a deer unethically than a bow hunter?


Got turkeys from this post, I know you can not have both a firearm and a bow while Turkey hunting.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

SPH said:


> I was not stating handguns only.
> 
> And as for the coyote hunters only hunt coyotes, turkey hunters only hunt turkey's that is a very naive statement. If that statement were true than bow hunters would only shoot deer with a bow and this would not even be a topic of discussion.


But this topic does have to do with handguns. But if you wish, even long arms are resticted to the type and shell for turkey hunting, coyotes also some have restrictions to the type of longarm.


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## SPH (Jan 20, 2004)

The guys that are going to poach deer are going to do it regardless of what the law is. I just think it is unfortunate that those who will use it responsibly must pay the price for the few that don't.

That was the only point I was trying to make.

Uncle!!!!!


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I agree, uncle. Let us just close this on a good note. Those that agree with the law, good, those that disagree with the law, that is good too. None of us will solve it or make everybody happy on the internet.


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