# Fur Market in the Abyss



## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

I see nothing has changed around here!!


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## RS1983 (Mar 16, 2009)

If basic economic rules apply, I would think that a period of low price furs will eventually bring the market back. Garment makers and other end users will be able to purchase raw materials at next to nothing which should lower the price of products enough that more consumers can afford them. It might even encourage new designers to start working with fur. Another possible consequence is that ranchers and some trappers are likely to exit the market due to poor prices, especially if they stick around for several seasons. This will lower supply. I think we all know that the reason demand is down has to do with the poor economy in Russia and China. I think I've lived long enough to understand that the economy goes up and down and it will come back at some point in the future. I only see this helping guys like me who want to do this sport for the fun of it. The guys who do this mainly to make a buck will throw their suckers in the sand, sell their traps, quit trapping properties. I plan on moving in on their areas and trapping just enough to keep a relationship with the landowners. When things turn around, those of us who stuck it out and remain established will be rewarded with good prices for a few years before it all comes crashing down again.


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## furandhides (Jul 3, 2008)

gilgetter said:


> I see nothing has changed around here!!


 Shouldn't be surprising Gil. The forum is reflective of our society in general. Everyone's angry, especially so in the younger generations. You see it wherever you go. No different here. Watch the news shows, anger and hatred.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

Firefighter said:


> It's funny, someone calls out an individual for CHASING NEW TRAPPERS AWAY from our passion (not directly, but rather indirect and possibly unknowingly), citing monetary reasons, and he is defended by rebuttals filled with name calling and personal attacks.
> 
> Hopefully future generations participate based on an appreciation for the outdoors and utilization beyond money, because that is what it is truly all about.
> 
> Keep throwing mud gentlemen. I've got plenty of water to wash it away.


"Hopefully future generations participate based on an appreciation for the outdoors and utilization beyond money. because that is what it is truly all about." Delusional about sums up your statement, in my humble opinion. The majority of people who earn a living from trapping, be it as a full time ADC professional or a seasonal fur trapper, have a greater appreciation and respect for the outdoors and the animals in it, than anybody I know that does it recreationally, or as a non-consumptive user.


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## Firefighter (Feb 14, 2007)

Patrickr said:


> "Hopefully future generations participate based on an appreciation for the outdoors and utilization beyond money. because that is what it is truly all about." Delusional about sums up your statement, in my humble opinion. The majority of people who earn a living from trapping, be it as a full time ADC professional or a seasonal fur trapper, have a greater appreciation and respect for the outdoors and the animals in it, than anybody I know that does it recreationally, or as a non-consumptive user.


Let's take this sideways - ADC trapping is a whole different ballgame and benefits from poor prices. Why? Because people that do it for money find it's not worthwhile anymore, populations increase, and Joe resident, who can't even catch a mouse calls in ADC Bob. Bob makes his money from Joe, not the fur because one cannot sell ADC fur.

And fur full time trappers (remember ADC doesn't count) has been mentioned numerous times here. Can anyone tell me someone who's sole income was from fur in Michigan in the past 5 years?


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Firefighter said:


> ............
> Can anyone tell me someone who's sole income was from fur in Michigan in the past 5 years?


Yes I can:






L & O


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Firefighter said:


> And fur full time trappers (remember ADC doesn't count) has been mentioned numerous times here. Can anyone tell me someone who's sole income was from fur in Michigan in the past 5 years?


I don't know any personally but I watch fnt's show and they have Gary Shumann and Jeff Dunlap on there all the time. The show touts them as guys who trap for a living in michigan. Gary has trapped over 60,000 muskrats in the last 20 yrs. He also traps *****, beavers, mink etc...


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## Firefighter (Feb 14, 2007)

DirtySteve said:


> I don't know any personally but I watch fnt's show and they have Gary Shumann and Jeff Dunlap on there all the time. The show touts them as guys who trap for a living in michigan. Gary has trapped over 60,000 muskrats in the last 20 yrs. He also traps *****, beavers, mink etc...


60000 rats is a ton, but spread over 20 years with a 5 dollar average, that's 15000 dollars per year, or about 7.50 per hour salary full-time. That barely covers vehicle expenses.

Better put up a whole bunch of other critters to even break 10 dollars an hour.

Back when settlers were first inhabiting North America, a single beaver pelt was worth about 400 dollars in today's money with inflation considered. One could make a living off that. Gone are those days with the advent of synthetics, and trapping had become a recreational hobby for 99 percent of those that do it (as I've said, ADC isn't in the conversation).


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

Interesting Math!! $400 dollar beaver!! from your lips to Gods ears!!


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Firefighter said:


> 60000 rats is a ton, but spread over 20 years with a 5 dollar average, that's 15000 dollars per year, or about 7.50 per hour salary full-time. That barely covers vehicle expenses.
> 
> Better put up a whole bunch of other critters to even break 10 dollars an hour.
> 
> Back when settlers were first inhabiting North America, a single beaver pelt was worth about 400 dollars in today's money with inflation considered. One could make a living off that. Gone are those days with the advent of synthetics, and trapping had become a recreational hobby for 99 percent of those that do it (as I've said, ADC isn't in the conversation).


I doubt gary was catching 3k rats his early yrs. My guess is he got better at it over time.

I believe gary shumann puts up a ton of other animals besides rats. He is big into **** and all water trapping. He has been known to walk into an auction with 50 weasels. I am not saying there are alot of professional trappers but there are a couple. The guys that do it find ways to make money. They sell dvds and lures etc... I would guess they do some sort of work in the summer. 

I question why you wouldn't count ADC as being a professional trapper. If a guy puts up enough fur to make say 30-40k in a season and can make a few bucks as an ADC business in the offseason it would count in my book as trapping professionally. I doubt any trapper in the settlers days worked solely as a trapper. They had to do something in the off season for work. No different than a teacher today who works as a painter or deck builder in the summer to make ends meet. He is still a teacher in my book.


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## Firefighter (Feb 14, 2007)

gilgetter said:


> Interesting Math!! $400 dollar beaver!! from your lips to Gods ears!!


Inflation.... Want a definition? 


http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88042

I figured another forum would be easier for you to read than a complex financial explanation.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

DirtySteve said:


> I doubt gary was catching 3k rats his early yrs. My guess is he got better at it over time.
> 
> I believe gary shumann puts up a ton of other animals besides rats. He is big into **** and all water trapping. He has been known to walk into an auction with 50 weasels. I am not saying there are alot of professional trappers but there are a couple. The guys that do it find ways to make money. They sell dvds and lures etc... I would guess they do some sort of work in the summer.
> 
> I question why you wouldn't count ADC as being a professional trapper. If a guy puts up enough fur to make say 30-40k in a season and can make a few bucks as an ADC business in the offseason it would count in my book as trapping professionally. I doubt any trapper in the settlers days worked solely as a trapper. They had to do something in the off season for work. No different than a teacher today who works as a painter or deck builder in the summer to make ends meet. He is still a teacher in my book.


I agree 100%. Firefighter has no clue about how many real professional trappers there are in MI whether it be for fur or as an ADC operator. And I'm not including those who make and sell lure, DVDs, etc.. Just those that trap. And Firefighter, yes you can sell some of the ADC fur if it was taken during the legal harvest season. Between 1991 and 2005 I had many years where I grossed $50K - $75K from fur and ADC work.

Be very careful saying the words "recreational trapping". Recreational trapping means you can not sell it by law. I'll explain in a new thread I will create, and I will provide direct quotes from the Supreme Court of the United States.


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## Firefighter (Feb 14, 2007)

Patrickr said:


> I agree 100%. Firefighter has no clue about how many real professional trappers there are in MI whether it be for fur or as an ADC operator. And I'm not including those who make and sell lure, DVDs, etc.. Just those that trap. And Firefighter, yes you can sell some of the ADC fur if it was taken during the legal harvest season. Between 1991 and 2005 I had many years where I grossed $50K - $75K from fur and ADC work.
> 
> Be very careful saying the words "recreational trapping". Recreational trapping means you can not sell it by law. I'll explain in a new thread I will create, and I will provide direct quotes from the Supreme Court of the United States.


Don't worry Pat, I know where you're coming from and your true intentions for the fur market and it's use by all. 

And for the record, I'm a licensed ADC trapper. Does that mean you won't look down on my recreational use as much?


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

What does ADC stand for ?

L & O


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## Firefighter (Feb 14, 2007)

Liver and Onions said:


> What does ADC stand for ?
> 
> L & O


Animal Damage Control.

It allows one to trap certain species regardless of season, when doing (or about to do) damage. 

The license holder must document all catches, and justify the reason. For instance, trapping a fox out of season because it passed through a residential property would be difficult to explain. 

Reports must be filed with the DNR every 3 years.


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

Firefighter, I have learned over the years that there are a few, very few, "recreational" trappers that continue trapping recreationally for long spans of time (decades), as sooner or later they enter into the realm of "commercial" trapping when they decide to sell pelts and have them enter into the interstate commerce system. So don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to "recreational" trapping. I, myself, just spent the past two seasons trapping recreationally and giving my all of my fur away for free to friends and relatives (free to my friends and relatives but it costs me thousands of dollars to harvest it). I just don't want the public to be confused and believe that all trapping is to be considered "recreational" as it isn't. The vast majority of trapping, and fur hunting, is done as a commercial activity as the pelts, along with various body parts, are being sold and entered into the interstate commerce system, and/or, the trapper is being paid to provide a wildlife removal service.

As long as a trapper isn't doing something to hurt trappers, or the industry as a whole, there is no way I could look down on him or her. Trapping, along with fur harvesting - which includes hunting, is a large industry and everybody has a role to fulfill. We have room for "recreational" trappers (don't sell fur or charge for their services), "hobby" trappers (can't turn a profit or don't try to turn a profit), and the "professional" trapper (profitable and operates his or her activities as a business). And we shouldn't be discriminating against our fellow trappers whether they are from the UP, the LP, or from another State. We are all trappers and fur hunters. We either stand together as a united force protecting our industry and expanding opportunities for all of us, or we will fall one by one.


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## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

The vast majority of trappers are teenage beginners, employed adults, and senior citizens carrying on the tradition. Every survey I ever saw about "Why do you trap?" showed 
fun/enjoyment/adventure at the top. Money, if it was mentioned at all, was way down the list. Now perhaps it is accurate to claim that because a trapper sells his catch he is engaged in a business and is therefore subject to interstate commerce and IRS regulations. Does the federal government *enforce* those regulations on _all_ trappers? From my experiences the answer is *"No." * So WHO is pushing the federal government to enforce any and all laws on all trappers that pertain to their running a commercial business? 
With all of that said, how is _enforcing_ all trapping by every trapper as a commercial business going to improve the experience for the vast majority who trap for fun?
Additionally, what effect(s) would voiding any and all state laws that currently prohibit non-resident trapping have on the rank and file of trappers _who never trap out of their home state?_


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## TK81 (Mar 28, 2009)

Liver and Onions said:


> I'm curious, what does that word mean ? A Goggle search was no help. Back in the 60's when I was still playing football and basketball, we used the word, "deak" to mean a fake or misdirection. For example, 'that guy deaked me out of my jock.'
> 
> L & O


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## Patrickr (May 2, 2016)

DFJISH said:


> The vast majority of trappers are teenage beginners, employed adults, and senior citizens carrying on the tradition. Every survey I ever saw about "Why do you trap?" showed
> fun/enjoyment/adventure at the top. Money, if it was mentioned at all, was way down the list. Now perhaps it is accurate to claim that because a trapper sells his catch he is engaged in a business and is therefore subject to interstate commerce and IRS regulations. Does the federal government *enforce* those regulations on _all_ trappers? From my experiences the answer is *"No." * So WHO is pushing the federal government to enforce any and all laws on all trappers that pertain to their running a commercial business?
> With all of that said, how is _enforcing_ all trapping by every trapper as a commercial business going to improve the experience for the vast majority who trap for fun?
> Additionally, what effect(s) would voiding any and all state laws that currently prohibit non-resident trapping have on the rank and file of trappers _who never trap out of their home state?_


Why is it trappers and fur hunters are the last to admit to themselves and the public that they are engaged in a commercial activity? Are they somehow ashamed that they are engaged in commerce? Is it wrong to be engaged in one of the oldest enterprises in North America? Here is a fact for you DFJISH, let the State make fur harvesting a purely "recreational" activity as I described on another thread and, I promise, you will see the vast majority of fur harvesting end except for somebody taking a beaver or muskrat to eat or have some new gloves, mittens, hats, or slippers made once in a blue moon. The adventure, fun, and enjoyment end in trapping when the money factor is eliminated unless you are harvesting for food, protecting your property, or trying to make something out of fur for yourself.

Fur harvesting - trapping and hunting - can be either a hobby or a business, as I describe on the other thread, but it is still a commercial activity according to the U.S. Supreme Court and the IRS if you are selling any part of the animal(s). That is a fact. So are you saying you are a tax cheat because you don't report your trapping income as required by State and Federal laws? I hope you never get audited. Be warned, the antis know trapping and fur hunting are commercial activities. If you don't believe me you had better start looking at what happened in CA, and is going on in CO and IL. And they will bring that fight to MI in the future. Sooner or later the antis will get around to forcing the government and the IRS to look at the books of the auction houses and local fur buyers, and where do you think that will lead back too? Yep, you the producer - the trapper and hunter. Didn't the IRS, just a few years ago, try something along those lines with the Canadian auction houses?

Nobody is saying all trappers have to trap as a commercial business. Those who don't want too can trap as a hobby, but it is still a commercial activity since they are selling parts of the animals harvested. Trapping as a hobby just means that the person trapping either can not trap profitably 3 years out of 5, or they are not attempting to trap as a profitable business. It comes down to one's intent. That is how the IRS differentiates between a hobby and a business. And if you are not selling anything, meaning you are keeping the animals for self consumption then you have nothing to report income wise to the IRS so you are "recreational" then. But I will say that based on my own experience, and those of a few close friends that trap, operating my trapping activities as business has made me a better trapper and a more profitable one as well. Documenting your daily activities, which is much more than which lure, bait, and set you used at a given location, will show you where you are losing time and money. It will teach you line and time management, which species to focus on for your area, and what the market is looking for. It will teach you when to trap each season for the best chance at turning a profit. And you will learn about marketing your catch which could involve, depending on your motivation, selling your catch in other markets than just the fur market and it could mean you don't sell your fur to a local buyer or ship it off to auction. Trust me when you can make money trapping it is a lot more fun than when you are losing money. I don't go fishing without a hook and bait because I expect something for my time and effort. I fish to eat. I don't go hunting with a camera because I hunt to eat, not commune with nature and have fun.

As a rank and file type of trapper I have never trapped outside of Michigan. I might want to someday though, and because fur harvesting is a commercial activity the Privileges and Immunities Clause should make it so I am given the same equal opportunities (full parity) to trap and hunt furbearers and predators as the residents of whatever State I decide to go to unless they have, and can prove, a valid reason for treating me disparately (different) from their resident fur harvesters for selected species. Allowing nonresidents to trap and hunt furbearers and predators with complete parity is good for the industry, it is good for the state involved, and it is good for the resident trappers hunters. It is a pro trapper/hunter and pro trapping/hunting issue that we should push for. To be against nonresident trappers and fur hunters is anti trapping/hunting as well as being anti trapper/hunter. Economic protectionism of a natural resource without significant justification is illegal and shouldn't be tolerated by any trapper or fur hunter. It hurts the industry and plays into the hands of the antis.

Just my opinion.


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