# How many birds? Just curious



## mcanes1 (Jan 22, 2003)

Just curious, for the guys that train their pointing dogs. How many birds do you use in a season per dog for a year?
For those that have finished gun dogs, how many birds do you estimate you used to get the dog to this stage?

Thanks


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Every dog is different. This year with my 6 Mounth old pup I have put 50+ pen birds and the greatest teacher wild birds he has been around 30 give or take. But as they get older much less pen birds and more wild birds.


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## mcanes1 (Jan 22, 2003)

Thanks


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

With my dogs i would estimate. Each year 12 or so have been hunt tests.

Year 1 40-50 planted birds lots of hunting hours and wild exposure.
Year 2 20-30 planted birds lots of hunting hours and wild exposure
Year 3 10-15 planted birds going to be lots of hunting ours.

From this point on there will be very few training birds


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## mold_mker (Jan 19, 2003)

This year to finish 2 year olds, between stop to flush birds and shooters about 125 birds per dog and 14 ducks for water work.:yikes:


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Based upon my VERY limited knowledge and my first year of keeping homers, I'm putting the minimum number of birds needed at a dozen. Right now I have 19 in my loft. However, ten of those have yet to be flown. I know I will lose some when I turn them out. Add to that losses from predators and such and I estimate that a dozen birds will get me through the year for training one dog. 

6 homers 3 times a week for the months of June, July, and August would put me at 216 birds. Good thing they're reusable. 

Wild birds, can't ever have enough contacts.


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## mcanes1 (Jan 22, 2003)

I'm thinking of building a coop and keeping some pigeons. Along with the Chukars and Tennessee reds I have. I might have to "pick your brain at a later date" .



RecurveRx said:


> Based upon my VERY limited knowledge and my first year of keeping homers, I'm putting the minimum number of birds needed at a dozen. Right now I have 19 in my loft. However, ten of those have yet to be flown. I know I will lose some when I turn them out. Add to that losses from predators and such and I estimate that a dozen birds will get me through the year for training one dog.
> 
> 6 homers 3 times a week for the months of June, July, and August would put me at 216 birds. Good thing they're reusable.
> 
> Wild birds, can't ever have enough contacts.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

I think that this question is extremely dog and goal dependent: As many as it takes, and as many wild birds as possible as early as possible (if you hunt wild birds). Not all dogs are created equal and hunters expect different levels of competence from their dogs. Do you want your dog steady to wing and shot on wild birds or is it acceptable to hold point until you're somewhere in the neigborhood? Do you hunt game farms mostly or are you more into wild birds?

I also think a lot of owners make the mistake of never actually doing any actual training on wild birds (only hunting) -- there's a massive difference between handling a dizzied domestic quail and a November grouse on public land.


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## anon21511 (Jan 13, 2006)

FindtheBird is right. I don't want a dog that is steady to shot, I'm not even sure I'm using that term correctly! All I need the dog to do is find, point and retrieve. I'll bet I can count on two hands the number of training birds I've used for both dogs in the past 8 years.(I prefer to waste my money on beer and women.) Do my dogs hunt with me as a team and find birds, you betcha! Each person will find the right balance for themselves. I don't care about fancy ribbons or plaques. My dogs manners are like a drunken sailor, but like that sailor, when it's time to work, they get the job done-well! Bottom line, the shinier you want you dog, the more you'll have polish it.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> I think that this question is extremely dog and goal dependent: As many as it takes, and as many wild birds as possible as early as possible (if you hunt wild birds). Not all dogs are created equal and hunters expect different levels of competence from their dogs. Do you want your dog steady to wing and shot on wild birds or is it acceptable to hold point until you're somewhere in the neigborhood? Do you hunt game farms mostly or are you more into wild birds?
> I don't see that it make ANY difference what type or what kind of hunting, birds, STW, whatever. Your dog will improve with/ by going out and flushing birds over them.
> 
> I also think a lot of owners make the mistake of never actually doing any actual training on wild birds (only hunting) -- there's a massive difference between handling a dizzied domestic quail and a November grouse on public land.


 I totally disagree. ANY bird work is better then nothing. There are many issues that you can fix or practice with a dog on planted birds versus wild birds. 
Really how much training can a person do on a wild bird???? Other then exposing him to the oppertunity of a wild bird find the only training opp you get is to not shoot the bird if the dog makes a mistake.That wild bird is not gonna stick around if you go to your dog and make a correction lets say like creeping and breaking relocating and such.
The advantage of planting birds are numerous. Every time your dog goes out he knows it is gonna find birds and not just another strool in the park. After while that transitions over to, that dog concentrates and applies himself to the best of his abilities each and every time it hits the ground. Run him numerous times with no bird contacts and you will get the stroll in the park attitude.
Mike I have broke hundreds of dogs on planted birds that can handle and find wild birds with no problems.

To answer the poster question personally when I break a dog for someone or myself that dog is gonna see a couple of hundred of planted birds that first season at least. And most of those will be killed over them. Thats what it takes to program them to make it second nature on how to handle a bird when scent contact is made. No stepping, No roading it in, No relocating. The more you drill that into a young dog the better he will retain that for the rest of its life.

The actual finding of the birds is where the wild bird training/ hunting pays off the best.Nothing can replace that. It is really nothing that can be trained. They have to learn that on their own, and thats comes again, through exposure. Putting them on wild bird contacts.


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## bbutler (Sep 3, 2008)

My labs aren't pointing dogs but I consider them to be finished dogs after having 1,950 flushes last year. Now I consider them both finished! (Needless to say we guided many preserve hunts last year.)


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## honkey (Aug 26, 2010)

crosswind said:


> Mike I have broke hundreds of dogs on planted birds that can handle and find wild birds with no problems.
> 
> To answer the poster question personally when I break a dog for someone or myself that dog is gonna see a couple of hundred of planted birds that first season at least. And most of those will be killed over them. Thats what it takes to program them to make it second nature on how to handle a bird when scent contact is made.


That is a ridiculous amount of birds needed to break a dog unless the dog is a complete idiot with no pointing instinct.


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## mcanes1 (Jan 22, 2003)

****** said:


> That is a ridiculous amount of birds needed to break a dog unless the dog is a complete idiot with no pointing instinct.


I was going to ignore your sarcastic post. 



Never mind, it isn't worth it. :evilsmile


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

****** said:


> That is a ridiculous amount of birds needed to break a dog unless the dog is a complete idiot with no pointing instinct.


 
I guess when ya own the #1 GSP in the country, you have no idea what you're talking about. Crosswind, get off the computer and go learn how to train dogs....... And that's a direct order from the Captain.:lol:

BTW, I will be out tomorrrow or Thursday to get my new pointer Morgan in tune for grouse.


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## mcanes1 (Jan 22, 2003)

Firemedic said:


> I guess when ya own the #1 GSP in the country, you have no idea what you're talking about. Crosswind, get off the computer and go learn how to train dogs....... And that's a direct order from the Captain.:lol:
> 
> BTW, I will be out tomorrrow or Thursday to get my new pointer Morgan in tune for grouse.


Scott doesn't even have to reply to that stupid statement of ******'s. Scott's reputation speaks loud enough.

I was going to add on to my previous post. But, I figure Scott is probably laughing his **** off at the stupid statement, so why bother.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

crosswind said:


> I totally disagree. ANY bird work is better then nothing. There are many issues that you can fix or practice with a dog on planted birds versus wild birds.
> Really how much training can a person do on a wild bird???? Other then exposing him to the oppertunity of a wild bird find the only training opp you get is to not shoot the bird if the dog makes a mistake.That wild bird is not gonna stick around if you go to your dog and make a correction lets say like creeping and breaking relocating and such.
> The advantage of planting birds are numerous. Every time your dog goes out he knows it is gonna find birds and not just another strool in the park. After while that transitions over to, that dog concentrates and applies himself to the best of his abilities each and every time it hits the ground. Run him numerous times with no bird contacts and you will get the stroll in the park attitude.
> Mike I have broke hundreds of dogs on planted birds that can handle and find wild birds with no problems.
> ...


Scott, I agree with most of what you're saying (as always) especially with your philosophy of working-out the bird handling kinks in dogs under controlled circumstances--I don't think you'll get much disagreement on that point from anyone.

However, I have to disagree that a bunch of planted quail training is going to create (or maintain) a great wild bird dog--for example, a chukar that will allow the dog to approach to two feet is a totally different critter than a pressured grouse that will leave the area at the slightest provocation. How do you teach re-positioning on a runner or teaching the dog to recognize quality cover and working the wind? To the contrary, the woods, with all of its distractions, is by far the best place to train. In my view, the only way to improve a dog in any of those areas is to get them on wild birds and as early and as many as possible.



> How much training can a person do on a wild bird?


You're absolutely right Scott, why didn't you tell me that before? Right after I get off the computer I'm phoning my pro to tell him to stop training my dog on wild birds! While I'm at it, I'm going to suggest taking his entire string off of wild birds and send them back to school on planted birds--after all, it's got to be a pain in the rear hauling all of those dogs to multiple covers all day, getting stabbed by prickly plants and swatting those pesky flies. I'm also calling other "wild bird hacks" like Chafee and the Foreman's to enlighten them.
Scott, I respect your success and your opinions, but on that question, I have to side with the guys who make a good hunk of their living competing (and winning) in wild bird competitive venues.


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

You guys crack me up. While I don't always agree with some of the Pro trainer's methods, why does it have to constantly be a ******* match with what the pro's say here? The few pro's who actually do post here, do so for the good of the members, no other reason. This upland forum is a damn joke anymore. Just because someone hears something, or saw it done in a book, unless YOU are the ones doing the training, putting in the hours, making the mistakes, what makes you the expert? If you know so much, why not get out there and train, trial, campaign your own damn dog? 

And by the way FTB, since your dogs aren't trained on the forbidden pen raised birds, how do you know how a dog adapts in the woods? Let me guess, you heard it from someone? In my few years of training, I learned pointing dogs stop at first scent. Must be something only wild-bird dogs know how to do. :lol:

I give credit to the few members here who actually come to learn, and go out and train the dogs themselves (K9wernet and RecurveRX come to mind), whether the methods be right or not, they guys are out there putting in the time and commitment, learning from their mistakes to make themselves a better trainer, and building a better bird dog. They ask great questions, but have to weed through all the I-heard-this-works BS. 


I'll stop in a few times during the season, to post pics of birds that were KILLED over my pen-raised bird trained dog and that were retrieved to hand. 


Ya'll have fun wading in the BS to find the real answers, I'm going to go train my own dog............:gaga:


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## anon21511 (Jan 13, 2006)

Hang in there Ryan, and back away from the axe!


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Piss off Dean......lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

Birdhuntr1 said:


> Hang in there Ryan, and back away from the axe!


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I stopped in to see Steelheadfred on my way to a job interview, and we got into this wild vs. pen raised bird thing, and it got intense enough that I was almost late for my interview. 

To be discussed at a later date between Fritz and I.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> When I got started in this whole crazy "hunting birds over pointing dogs" world, I wanted one thing: A dog I could kill birds over. My training consisted of two things:
> 
> 1) Yard work (obedience training, sans birds); and
> 2) Hunting
> ...


 ....


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

****** said:


> I have to say, I have never been impressed with poultry championships. It's artificial hunting at best (with dumb birds) and although some of the dogs running in poultry trials may or may not be excellent wild bird dogs, poultry trials don't prove a thing as far as their ability to handle wild birds.


 
******, are you speaking from personal experience or are you just voicing your opinion ???


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

I come to this site because it's a really nice group of people. There is no need to get nasty when you disagree. Please keep it clean.

Now, I have to ask ... How are we defining "broke". To me broke means steady to wing and shot, stops to flush, and backs reliably. 

BTW ... Dave Hughes uses planted birds on a consistent basis.

SRB


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> Scott, thanks for the rational, polite reply: others on this forum can and should learn from that level of courtesy.
> 
> Scott, as I eluded to in my post, I don't disagree with the philosphy of using planted birds in a developing a dog; every respected wild bird guy who I know does it. I think that we disagree on what happens afterward--the transition to the their wild cousins. I think it's haphazard to grab the old Mossburg and start following Heidi out into the woods right after planted bird training is complete. As I mentioned, everybody expects different levels of competency from their dogs, but I think it's smart to look at that initial planted bird training as a good foundation to be built on.
> Mike you talk as if the transition to wild birds is some unrealistic hurdle that a dog broke on planted birds, will never achieve. Thats speaks volumns as to your inexperience.
> ...


 You are only a threat in your own mind. I think you would actually have to had accomplished something to be considered a threat. But hey man I will give ya credit you are out there trying and competeting. 
If you think you have the dog to go compete in those HB trials, jump in there and show them you are a threat. :lol:
[/COLOR] 
 those guys see us wild bird trialers as a mortal threat too).[/QUOTE]

There is a reason why the folks that have actually been successful and made the accomplishments, why they don't make statements like that.
You will figure it out eventually.:lol:


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

Firstly I have been to the so called wild bird people. Why do they own pigeons? 

U are missing the fact that they spend time breaking the dog in a controlled situation. 

Secondly how many retrieves do those dogs do? U can't shoot wild birds over season 


What it all boils down to is what u are using your dog for. 

The wild guys have a dog that runs good points good but most don't retrieve. Because they aren't required to. 

I don't think the question was do u train on wild or planted it was how many birds do u go through. 

I believe you break the dog first then you do the wild bird thing. If you read what crosswind wrote u would have read that.


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## Grouseman2 (Dec 28, 2001)

chewy said:


> Firstly I have been to the so called wild bird people. Why do they own pigeons?
> 
> U are missing the fact that they spend time breaking the dog in a controlled situation.
> 
> ...


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Birdhuntr1 said:


> Strictly for my benefit of learning more, what difference does it make as long as the dog ends up achieving the standard the person wants?


I suppose if you're the trainer handed with a dog and/or a person sending their dog in for training, not much, as long as the expected outcome is achieved.

My concern, as usual, is one of breeding. Why breed and train dogs that don't have a lick of pointing instinct?

I realize the head of HSUS claims we won't need dog breeds in the future but I didn't think we as gun dog buyers were catering to that. Apparently we are when any old dog can be bred and trained to point as is often claimed here.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WCH, I knew you would have something intelligent to add to this thread.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

crosswind said:


> Mike you talk as if the transition to wild birds is some unrealistic hurdle that a dog broke on planted birds, will never achieve. Thats speaks volumns as to your inexperience.


What? C'mon Scott, I never said that! While I'm sure that the dogs you train immediately enter the woods as seasoned wild bird specialists, that's not the case for most of us mere mortals and is very misleading to the new guys. Insurmountable hurdle for broke planted bird dogs? Of course not, they're off to a dynamite start and it just takes some time, some contacts and some experience. Contrary to what you think I believe, planted bird breaking is an awesome first step in wild bird development (how could I think otherwise, and you're welcome!) 


crosswind said:


> I have twenty acres of CRP that has a good crop of wild pheasants every year. These dogs that are broke on wild birds can routinely point and hold those birds on that side of the training field also. The transition is not that big a deal.


God, I would hope so! The dog's next-door to the environment that they were broke in and pointing the biggest, smelliest upland bird in Michigan! Something's real wrong if you don't get some broke dog work under that circumstance. (this should address your answer me!! demand) 


crosswind said:


> Once again real slllllllowwww. I am refering to corrections after the dog has the bird pointed. ( which is where most infractions accure ) how many wild birds will sit tight and let you correct your dog. By the time you get to your dog that wild bird is gone.


Sure, the bird's sometimes gone, but a good well-trained dog should know what they did wrong and should respond to a prompt, measured correction. I think that you're making a one-to-one correlation to breaking dogs under extremely strict, synthetic conditions back in the pasture--that it isn't. I'm talking about not allowing a trained dog to push the envelope and get away with all sorts of malarkey in the wild under much less controlled circumstances and with a myriad of distractions. (disclaimer: this doesn't apply and isn't necessary for the dogs of Crosswind Kennels).

Since you're not picking-up on what I've said (over and over) here's a summary:
1. Breaking dog on planted birds ==> Good! (you're welcome again!)
*2. After breaking, showing said dog lots of wild birds ==> Good!
*3. While on step #2, enforcing the rules learned in step #1 ==> Good!
4. If the dog slips too much on step #2, return to step #1 targeting the misbehavior (you're welcome yet again!)
* steps #2 and #3 not applicable or necessary for Crosswind-trained dogs.

Scott, it's obvious that you thrive on confrontation, but this is about the limit of what I can stomach (thanks for all that prime red meat though!). I hope that I've made my point and hope that you can see that we actually agree on a lot more than we disagree on. 
From this point-on, this thread gone from my radar, so go ahead and trash me as I know that you will, but remember, despite all that's been said, I still have a great deal of respect for your accomplishments as a handler/trainer.

Time to run some dogs (on wild birds).

--Mike


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## mcanes1 (Jan 22, 2003)

WestCoastHunter said:


> You think a trained stop equates to pointing instinct?
> 
> I see no reason not to throw as many birds in front of a dog as possible, pen raised or otherwise, but I also see ******'s point. At what point are you attempting to make up for a dog's deficiencies in instincts rather than cultivating natural ability?


West Coast,

As far as my reply to ******, I thought I was being diplomatic, I mean I wrote, erased, wrote erased quite a few words before saying what I did. 
I guess I should have stuck to my original words, which weren't very nice. 
This clowns comments (Yeah, freedom of speech) were written to start some crap. Read all his post, the majority of the time he's a smart***** looking to start a controversy. That type of crap isn't necessary. 
Think about it, this type of crap starts all kinds of controversy. What happens next, you get helpful members getting tight lipped or even disappearing because they don't like or tolerate the controversies. Granted not all controversies are harmful. But the majority of them are. So why put up with the jerks that continue to thrive on them? 
Does that make sense? 

Doesn't matter, what I think. I'm not picking sides. I think there's valid points for both cases. 
With the amount of time we are allowed to run on wild birds and the fluctuation of the wild bird population. I feel planted birds are a vital part of developing a sound bird dog. Whether your developing your hunting buddy or if your on the trial circuits.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

Are grouse trials considered horse back? Only person I ever see ride a horse is the judge


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I suppose if you're the trainer handed with a dog and/or a person sending their dog in for training, not much, as long as the expected outcome is achieved.
> 
> My concern, as usual, is one of breeding. Why breed and train dogs that don't have a lick of pointing instinct?
> 
> I realize the head of HSUS claims we won't need dog breeds in the future but I didn't think we as gun dog buyers were catering to that. Apparently we are when any old dog can be bred and trained to point as is often claimed here.


What are you talking about? How did you get this out of these posts I missed something.


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

<p>FTB,</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>The truth is that if a dog trained on planted birds birds can't handle wild birds (which includes grouse...BTW, grouse are by no way the toughest wild bird to work dogs on...I have hunted most of them), then they weren't trained properly on the planted birds. I am an avid hunter, and I train (and compete) EXCLUSIVELY on planted birds. I can't think of one of my dogs that went into its first season that didn't perform on wild birds like it did on planted birds. Dogs are creatures of habit. Install good habits and reap good rewards. There simply isn't a more consistent and efficient manner to train a dog than with planted birds.</p>
<p><font size="1"><i>Posted via Mobile Device</i></font></p>


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

I have no dog in this fight.

AND, I do think there is opportunity to learn from this discussion.

So, let's try to salvage this thread with some insight as to what is going on with my dog. Indulge me if you will.

Over the summer we have gotten him to the point of being completely broke (he turned 2 in May), STWS on pigeons in a remote launcher. Stop to flush, beautiful. Hits first scent, staunch as hell. Doesn't move throughout the flush, pistol firing, or throwing another pigeon at him. 

Over the last couple weeks I have been fortunate enough to get him on some grouse and WC. Whole nother story. He's still standing his birds very nicely, zero creep, lets me take as long as needed to flush the bird, but once the bird flushes, he's off. He will give chase until I correct him (usually 20-30 yards). He hasn't broke on a pigeon flush in well over a month. Now he's doing it consistently on wild birds. He went birdless this morning, but I don't consider that a failure. We were scouting some cover that turned out to be marginal.

When he breaks at the flush, I correct him, stand him back up, do a mock second flush and release him. 

Monday night I planted four pigeons for him, in a field that he had never been in before. Same thing, STWS. Beautiful. Perfect manners.

In my mind, it is environment. The woods is filled wonder and distraction. I suspect that with repetition, he will translate his manners to wild birds. And he has to a degree. But it is certainly taking some training on them and the transition hasn't been seamless.

So, is this just a matter of not enough reps on pigeons? Or is there something else going on here?


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

Have you ever shot a grouse over him? Have you ever shot a pigeon over him? Have you ever trained with a quail? Have you ever trained with pigeons or quail in the woods?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Drifter Saver said:


> Have you ever shot a grouse over him? Have you ever shot a pigeon over him? Have you ever trained with a quail? Have you ever trained with pigeons or quail in the woods?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I see your point. Environment...

He has had WC and wild phz shot over him, but not a grouse yet (last year was his first year hunting). We have trained with quail, but we have done no training with pigeons or quail in the woods. I'm a little leary of launching my homers in the woods. But that's a good point.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Drifter Saver said:


> I can't think of one of my dogs that went into its first season that didn't perform on wild birds like it did on planted birds.


With all due respect, I find that impossible to believe. There's a lot more to hunting wild birds than finding and pointing.

As Crosswind sagely pointed out -- a fine wild grouse dog may not be a fine wild pheasant dog and vice versa. There's a steep learning curve that goes along with mastering each species that has very little to do with the talent of the dog (or trainer). It has everything to do with experience handling living, breathing, thinking birds. I just don't see a fine "pigeon dog" or fine "pen-raised pheasant dog" waltzing into the field and making a seamless transition to wild birds.

I've seen pheasants sprint ahead, doubles back and squirts out to flush off to the side of or even back behind the gun. The dog is 30 yards ahead where he initially established point.

My favorite grouse move is what I call the "flutter jump." Your dog gets birdy, maybe points, but the grouse runs ahead and flushes nearly silently with only a couple flaps of its wings. It soars down 25-30 ft up ahead to create an interruption in its scent trail (or so I assume). Your loses the bird because he doesn't know how to methodically search the area to track down the bird. Or he tears around like crazy and bumps the bird.

My point is that both situations require experience for the dog (and handler) to handle well. I'd like to know how you set up any of these situations with planted birds. Heck, I'd like to know how you simulate even a relocating woodcock with planted birds. In my experience, a pigeon in a trap stays put. Even a liberated quail moves very little from its original location. 

(BTW, that's an honest challenge! My GSP is having a tough time w/ runners. My current training approach is to get her out on wild birds and correct her when she bumps them. If you can suggest an alternative technique with planted birds, I'd love to hear about it.)

I'm NOT endorsing wild-only training. I do agree with FTB's last post: Planted birds are great for building a foundation and zeroing in on specific training needs. However, there are some things you just can't do with them.

KW


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

mcanes1 said:


> Just curious, for the guys that train their pointing dogs. How many birds do you use in a season per dog for a year?
> For those that have finished gun dogs, how many birds do you estimate you used to get the dog to this stage?
> 
> Thanks


Here's a perspective from someone who is probably like most folks on the board -- work 40-60 hours a week, have a couple kids, attend family functions on a regular basis, etc. Always plan to get up north into wild birds for the dogs before the season, but with the quiet time and all the other family, home, and work commitments it doesn't always pan out. This year I've only been able to get up a couple times in the spring before quiet time and a couple times in the summer after quiet time. This means I rely on pen raised birds for the most part to train my dogs. Once I start working a young dog on birds I can usually get out 3 times a week. A couple times after work during the week and usually on a Saturday. I work each dog on 3-4 birds each outing and make them count. On the off days I do the yard work with them at home. I'll work them for about 5-6 months and get them steady on point, then take them hunting during the season. After the season, depending on what type of winter we have, I get out with them back on pen raised birds as much as possible. Unfortunately that isn't much in the winter. When springtime comes I start it all over again. That really isn't many birds when you do the math, but it has worked for me when it comes to the meat dogs. They transition fine to the woods; there is a learning curve in their handling of grouse (not so much woodcock), but that is expected. By their 3'rd season they're usually dialed in. It probably takes others who have more access to the woods a shorter period of time, but I have to play the hand I'm dealt and so far I can't complain. I don't have any complaints in the dogs' performance given they are trained pretty much on pen raised birds.

With the dog I dabble in trialing, I've trained him myself and with the help of professional trainers. During the breaking process with him, I went out 3 nights a week and put him on 4 birds each night. We had a quail recall pen. By the time we were done with each night's training the birds were already back in the pen. That was very cost effective. We had him pretty much broke in 3 months, but I've had him to pro trainers to work on some details -- the latest with Scott Townsend to stop him from setting up his birds and taking a step after establishing point. Scott put him on more pen raised birds in 4 weeks than I put him on in a whole year, and that stopped the problem. 

Bottom line, take the situation you're in and work your training method around it. A couple good days a week training where you start and stop on a good note is better than 5 days a week training where you set the dog up for failure and make mistakes. But if you have 4-5 days a week to do it, take advantage of that and if you can mix getting your dogs on wild birds while training them with pen raised birds, take advantage of that too. But remember its quality, not necessarily quantity that matters (within reason)>


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

kek25 said:


> Here's a perspective from someone who is probably like most folks on the board -- work 40-60 hours a week, have a couple kids, attend family functions on a regular basis, etc. Always plan to get up north into wild birds for the dogs before the season, but with the quiet time and all the other family, home, and work commitments it doesn't always pan out. This year I've only been able to get up a couple times in the spring before quiet time and a couple times in the summer after quiet time. This means I rely on pen raised birds for the most part to train my dogs. Once I start working a young dog on birds I can usually get out 3 times a week. A couple times after work during the week and usually on a Saturday. I work each dog on 3-4 birds each outing and make them count. On the off days I do the yard work with them at home. I'll work them for about 5-6 months and get them steady on point, then take them hunting during the season. After the season, depending on what type of winter we have, I get out with them back on pen raised birds as much as possible. Unfortunately that isn't much in the winter. When springtime comes I start it all over again. That really isn't many birds when you do the math, but it has worked for me when it comes to the meat dogs. They transition fine to the woods; there is a learning curve in their handling of grouse (not so much woodcock), but that is expected. By their 3'rd season they're usually dialed in. It probably takes others who have more access to the woods a shorter period of time, but I have to play the hand I'm dealt and so far I can't complain. I don't have any complaints in the dogs' performance given they are trained pretty much on pen raised birds.
> 
> With the dog I dabble in trialing, I've trained him myself and with the help of professional trainers. During the breaking process with him, I went out 3 nights a week and put him on 4 birds each night. We had a quail recall pen. By the time we were done with each night's training the birds were already back in the pen. That was very cost effective. We had him pretty much broke in 3 months, but I've had him to pro trainers to work on some details -- the latest with Scott Townsend to stop him from setting up his birds and taking a step after establishing point. Scott put him on more pen raised birds in 4 weeks than I put him on in a whole year, and that stopped the problem.
> 
> Bottom line, take the situation you're in and work your training method around it. A couple good days a week training where you start and stop on a good note is better than 5 days a week training where you set the dog up for failure and make mistakes. But if you have 4-5 days a week to do it, take advantage of that and if you can mix getting your dogs on wild birds while training them with pen raised birds, take advantage of that too. But remember its quality, not necessarily quantity that matters (within reason)>


Debates aside, that right there is probably the most realistic post on the whole thread.

Thanks for writing this.


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

Agree, good post Kek....I also wonder on this, with your particular dog. If you would have worked on 1 or 2 birds a time, for the first while. Got him good and stout on things with a smaller number of birds, then slowly added or changed things up a little with more or even less birds. Would things have gone more cleaner. Here is why I say, when you work dogs, they get in the "routine" of things. They are a creature of habit. So, when you were working him/her, it knew that there was gonna be 4 birds. So as the time and the training proceeded, the dog would look tight at the start today, and then slip a little next time.......doesnt matter if I slip, cause I am gonna get 3 more in a minute. So, he never got put in the situtaion to repsect his actions on things. See what I mean? Why did he step.....because he could, and wasnt gonna get put in time out, because there were gonna be more toys to play with. I bet if you would have swapped things around, and put him up after a bird. I bet he woulda looked at ya funny.........but tried harder next time. Just my thoughts on the down falls ya had. Birds can make a dog, and birds can ruin a dog, people need to decifer what and when, ....alot dont. That is an "in general" statement, no fingers pointed. Thanks Jonesy


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Don't know, Dave. I probably let him get away with more than I should have early on, because I perceived him to be softer than he really was and he was right in so many other ways (run, temperament, biddability, bird finding, style). I didn't want to take any of that out of him. I thought it was more of a confidence thing in the dog, but in reality it was the dog taking advantage of a situation. Scott showed me that dog could take more than I thought he could. Not in an overly heavy-handed way, mind you (I think Scott is one of the fairest handed trainers out there), but in an even-handed manner given the dog's real personality and not what I perceived to be his personality. All part of the training learning curve.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Since you're not picking-up on what I've said (over and over) here's a summary:
1. Breaking dog on planted birds ==> Good! (you're welcome again!)
*2. After breaking, showing said dog lots of wild birds ==> Good!
*3. While on step #2, enforcing the rules learned in step #1 ==> Good!
4. If the dog slips too much on step #2, return to step #1 targeting the misbehavior (you're welcome yet again!)
* steps #2 and #3 not applicable or necessary for Crosswind-trained dogs.

Scott, it's obvious that you thrive on confrontation, but this is about the limit of what I can stomach (thanks for all that prime red meat though!). I hope that I've made my point and hope that you can see that we actually agree on a lot more than we disagree on. 
From this point-on, this thread gone from my radar, so go ahead and trash me as I know that you will, but remember, despite all that's been said, I still have a great deal of respect for your accomplishments as a handler/trainer.

Time to run some dogs (on wild birds).

--Mike

[/QUOTE]

Mike, you now have come around to talking a different story you have continually preached the wild bird stuff and now you agree that of its OK to use pen raised birds. You have danced around/ side stepped most of the reasons I have posted to the contrary, only to finally admit that yes indeed you can train on pen raised planted birds also.

You accuse me of being confrontational, Im not, but I am adamant about getting new trainers started or steered in the right direction, with their dogs.
You seem to think that because you train or trial on wild birds that you are one of the elite, prime example, 
Quote-(those guys see us wild bird trialers as a mortal threat too). 
That mentality or tunnel vision does nothing towords helping a beginner out with training tips. ( the topic of the thread was a training guestion)
Not once in this thread or any other have I said don't train on wild birds, what I try to stress is all the preliminary work is done on planted birds, then the transition to wild birds will happen with little or no problems. Do they have to figure out where to look for wild birds, sure they do, but when they figure that out (and thats nothing we can teach) they will dam sure now how to handle the bird whan they get there. Will they bump some, absolutely, what young dogs don't.But when they do they will know they have screwed up, based on their previous training on planted birds. It does not take many of those before they figure out how to apply themselves to a wild bird. I have yet to see one not make that transition smoothly.Generally after a few birds.
So if you don't have the stomach to take any more of this thread thats fine. On posting in this thread I had no doubt that I would get through to you, the puffed up banny rooster, :lol:, but I would hope that it is of help to some of the other new trainers.
​


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## tailcrackin (Dec 7, 2005)

I am not, in anyway, saying anything on anyones help or work. This is a good part of the story, I had on another board, about soft dogs. They play possum on ya.......try an be all soft an sweet to get away with things. But, you have to be able to read the dog, be able to recognize wether its purposely, continiously, or just cause it wants to. Adjust the program for the dog, to work out the issues on the dog. This is where i said, you might have done better with less, for a time. People enjoy the point and pictures an all that stuff. well, that stuff tells me a whole lot on the dog I am looking at in them. They try and get point, after point, after point....they feel its gonna get better but actually gets worse. Then they put up the dog with it not finishing good, or correctly. So the dog thinks well this behavior is ok. So, if lets say the dog done perfect on two finds, stood like a million bucks, shot kill everything. Why wouldnt you stop while things are perfect? Instead alot want more.......do "the more", when the dog has understood everything, and is proving it to you each time out. That still keeps everything on the dogs table, and it all stays successful. See? 
Now,I am talking with you, we havent talked on the phone for a while. I always try an make ya think. Hopefully it helps out on each and every dog you work. Thanks Kek, Jonesy


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## honkey (Aug 26, 2010)

crosswind said:


> On posting in this thread I had no doubt that I would get through to you, the puffed up banny rooster, :lol:, but I would hope that it is of help to some of the other new trainers.
> ​


I guess you have an awful high opinion of yourself.


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

****** said:


> I guess you have an awful high opinion of yourself.


Who are you, and why do you feel that you have to enighten the board with your generally non-value add comment(s)? I looked at your posts so far...try to add something to society rather than just exercising your fingers on the keyboard.

I tried to obtain some insight into your comments in an effort to not judge without knowing. I looked at your public profile...17 total posts, located in NE Michigan and favorite bird to hunt is pheasant (based on location, I would assume that you would like to hunt grouse). The profile didn't help me understand.

The person you are addressing knows more about dogs as of today than you will when you're life is done. The fact that you don't know that tells the vast majority of people just how little knowledge you have.

I don't generally attack people personally on here, but you have posted a lot of nonsense in a short period of time.


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## mcanes1 (Jan 22, 2003)

Drifter Saver said:


> Who are you, and why do you feel that you have to enighten the board with your generally non-value add comment(s)? I looked at your posts so far...try to add something to society rather than just exercising your fingers on the keyboard.
> 
> I tried to obtain some insight into your comments in an effort to not judge without knowing. I looked at your public profile...17 total posts, located in NE Michigan and favorite bird to hunt is pheasant (based on location, I would assume that you would like to hunt grouse). The profile didn't help me understand.
> 
> ...




I pretty much said the same thing a few pages ago.


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

k9wernet said:


> With all due respect, I find that impossible to believe. There's a lot more to hunting wild birds than finding and pointing.
> 
> As Crosswind sagely pointed out -- a fine wild grouse dog may not be a fine wild pheasant dog and vice versa. There's a steep learning curve that goes along with mastering each species that has very little to do with the talent of the dog (or trainer). It has everything to do with experience handling living, breathing, thinking birds. I just don't see a fine "pigeon dog" or fine "pen-raised pheasant dog" waltzing into the field and making a seamless transition to wild birds.
> 
> ...


Your first statement is 100% accurate, but it isn't "training". After training, I call it experience and exposure. Both are accomplished with time in the field looking for whatever species you intend to hunt. Rest assured though, the first time my dogs encounter what I want them to while in the wild, it almost always results in what I expect from my training on planted birds. Therefore, it should make a seamless transition relative to birdwork. If not, then something wasn't done correctly on the training birds.

A training birds allows for more birdwork training than most can imagine. After your dog finds and points them well, start walking the bird in front of them. Then walk it between its legs. Then walk it off while calling your dog into heal and not go back to that bird while you continue training. Then flush a planted bird so that it flutters 5-10 yards while making the dog stand steady. Then flush it again and shoot the bird. Then make it stand a walking or fluttering bird a couple minutes later.

These are just examples of various pressure situations that can be applied to a dog in training with planted birds. I remember watching my young GSP last year stand 10 feet from a grouse while it walked back and forth on a log looking to exit. My dog did exactly as I would expect. He stood there solid as a rock until the bird decided to fly. The ending isn't as good because I missed him .

If you practice well and scrimmage well, you will probably play well.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

I will throw my two cents in &#8230; 

We like to put pups into a bunch of flight conditioned quail between the ages of 4-6 month. With client dogs this happens over the course of a month with our dogs it&#8217;s probably 6 weeks and they see 50-100 birds depending on the dog. We also introduce them to gun fire using a training pistol. At this point we quit or only occasionally show them liberated birds until they have seen a good number of wild birds. The good ones have learned what they need to know about liberated birds and are pointing them with great confidence by the time they have seen 30-40, some of them point the heck out of them long before 30 birds. We are trying to ignite their innate ability and prepare them to hunt wild birds. In other words, the only formal training we give them before we take them hunting is handling and whoa training. We do very little formal training until the dog has seen a fair number of wild birds. I know I put this video up here previously but this is a 14-15 week old pup on her third training (developmental) session and about the 5th or 6th bird. I don&#8217;t remember for sure. The point is there is no actual training done just exposure to birds. 



 
With our own dogs we like to insert controlled sessions (liberated birds) at certain points in the dog&#8217;s development on wild birds. We like to give to shoot some birds for them when they do it right and then go back to wild birds. They pick-up on how that works real fast. By the end of the first season we expect they are handling wild birds. This is a good point in time to construct a plan for that specific dog. In the spring we will begin to break most of our own dogs. We like to pups whelped November &#8211; February because they are old enough to get the most out of that first season and old enough to break that following summer. Of course, that&#8217;s all done on liberated birds (quail and Pigeons). I like to throw or launch multiple pigeons and correct the dog with as little force as possible if they move at all. This video is an 18 month old dog. At this point this dog has not had a lick of formal training on wild birds. He had handled lots of sharptails, huns and ruffed grouse, and numerous wild bobwhites but he was never corrected on wild birds and was broke on liberated birds where we could control the situation. 



 
This video was sent by a client. I think I put a video of this pup up when she was about 15 weeks old. This video is one of her first times on wild birds (Huns). She is a few days short of 6 months old. I think this is the ideal developmental process. [ame="http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/glk7243/?action=view&current=002.mp4"]002.mp4 video by glk7243 - Photobucket[/ame]

SRB


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

" If you practice well and scrimmage well, you will probably play well"

Well said I believe this is what both side are trying to say
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

****** said:


> I guess you have an awful high opinion of yourself.


This gentleman has had more success than most of us will ever see. Agree with him or not, that is your business. 

And one of the things that makes this man what he is that he is willing to hang around this forum, answer questions that have been posted over and over again, and he spends time with rookies that want to be successful, and doesn't really ask for much in return- except a little respect, and if you have ever been to a NSTRA trial, he is coaching the amatures and other competitors and truly enjoys seeing new people be successful. He may run several braces, and stays for the attaboys with the amatures. 

What do you do beside hide behind a keyboard? Really?


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## milmo1 (Nov 9, 2005)

RecurveRx said:


> I think I see your point. Environment...
> 
> We have trained with quail, but we have done no training with pigeons or quail in the woods.


 
Recurve-
Your situation reminds me of my first dog. Trained the hell out of him with tons of pigeons. Used a field adjacent to a barn the birds would home to. Many, many mornings with that dog and those birds. Took the trainers advice and worked him on wild phez. He got good at pointing them also. Went to the western U.P. and that dog couldn't find a grouse or woodcock. Seems he thought woods were a free run, not a place to hunt. It took me a while to put it together. A few birds launched in the woods fixed the problem. 

Man, I was frustrated. Now the thought just makes me shrug and smile.


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