# QDM and all that jazz



## eye1zLotto (Jun 1, 2003)

You know, I'm starting to fatique of all the QDM'rs yelling at me about healthy ratios, genetics, age, nutrition and specifically: eliminating female deer. I mean, look guys, I've got the hint! E-frick'nuff, OK!~

So,in honor of all my persistant QDM collegues, and, in keeping with the soon-to-launch holiday season, I've scribed a little song for you folks. 

To the holiday tune; "Let it snow"....

Oh the weather outside is frightful, 
I got seven shells in my rifle. 
QDM'rs say they've got to go, 
Kill a doe! Kill a doe! Kill a doe! 

It doesn't show signs of stopping 
We want antlers that are always cropping. 
The buck ratio is down so low 
Kill a doe! Kill a doe! Kill a doe! 

When we finally kill them all 
There'll be no more rut in the fall 
Every fawn, little nub and mother 
Leave jus' bucks to mate one another!

The species is slowly dying, 
And, QDM, we'll still keep trying. 
And as long as we love bucks so, 
Kill a doe! Kill a doe! Kill a doe!


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## Sawcat (Apr 5, 2003)

Hillarious!


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

You've got some song writing talent. Maybe a QDM group will invite you to sing that song at their next fund raising banquet.

L & O


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

Well that as interesting...nice song too. Personally i'm not a Qdm person, but i try to practice it a little. I passed on some small bucks this year, and shot what oi thought was a doe. Personally I'll shoot small bucks, but i'll also shoot just as many does. I mean you have to let some deer grow right? I only passed on two spikes this year, but i dont care whether i shoot a doe or not either. I'll shoot either that come in, anyway i dont think here in michigan we'll ever have to worry about not having deer. And the more does are gone the more bucks you'll see during the rut, because they'll be forced to search for does, unlike now where they can just get up for a few hours a day breed a choice of does. and go lsy back down never to be seen. But i'm not on either side o this issue, I just think that some does can go, you;ll see more bucks, and one thing is for sure, there will never be a shortage of deer!! just my .02
Alex


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## Wiggler (Dec 23, 2000)

thats a hoot eye....... (the picture) anyway, i just got back from my 3'rd illinois deer hunt, and its unreal the difference they have down there over what we have here. you dont shoot little bucks down there. period! thats how you get big bucks. the buck i got scored almost 160. my buddies scored 138. and we saw way more bucks than does on this trip. i saw an average of 8 bucks a day, with one or 2 a day being P & Y deer. it was the best hunt ive ever taken. and ill be goin back again next year. thats my really only chance to shoot big deer is down there. i see my usuall small bucks up here, and i havent killed one here in a few years now. i keep hoping one or 2 of those bucks will grow up big, but i havent seen it yet. but when i hunt up here and see close to 15-20 does every time i sit, and no bucks, something is really wrong. its sad, we have the state to do it, but not the people to carry it out to make it happen. if its brown....... its down!!!!! agggghhhhhhhh tis a sad thing my lad.........


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## passthru (Oct 28, 2003)

Ive hunted in Illinois also and there if you shoot a small buck after gutting and tagging you hide it in your trunk and sneek it home so nobody sees you with it or you take the back roads home cut it up and put it in the freezer fast. That is atleast what the outfitter told me. I saw photos down there of 12 yr old kids just starting out bowhunting and their first year they hold off and take a smaller deer that JUST scored 120s P&Y but next year they will hold out for a big one.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

I do hear and agree. A guy I work with just got back from Ohio, he saw an average of 4 bucks a day. Last year he shot an 8pt, so he has to wait for a 10. Property rules. Last day of the hunt he seen a 4, 6, and a pair of 8's All within range. He did see a 12 on the second day but it was too far. He said it's night and day differance compared to here.


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## huntingfool43 (Mar 16, 2002)

Great song eye1.


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## wknwarrior (Aug 3, 2003)

I have never laughed so hard while sitting at my computer   
Good job my friend!!


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## Ken Browning (Sep 11, 2003)

But that song sure was the funniest damn thing i've heard in a while.      

Now the sad part is that its not too far from the truth.


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## Lunker (Aug 27, 2001)

Very funny! Id love to see more. Leave the controversy behind you and let your good songs fly. I like these alot better.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2003)

QDM works. Period. I'll show you enough data to make your head spin if you don't believe. Show me the data that proves QDM is harmful to a deer herd and I'll listen.


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## RIP (Jun 4, 2002)

Song says it all. 

BTW, Lets send our 750,000 deer hunters to Illinois a couple of years in a row and see how your hunts go after that. Was that the local SGA you were seeing those P&W's on. 

You want QDM on your property. Nock yourself out. As far as the other 2/3rds of the state. We already have it!


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## 4x4_Hunter (Jan 2, 2002)

"As far as the other 2/3rds of the state. We already have it!"


Where? Seems to me that there are about 2 properties out of about 50 around our area that have stated that they practice some sort of deer management. That is besides us of course. All the others just try to "manage" to fill their freezers with the first brown thing that walks by. I think that the DNR will have to put something into law before the QDM works around here. Just my 2 cents. 

BTW, great song!


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Other states do it, and it works, scientists prove it every year, and we still here in Michigan keep killing everything. 

Real Sad, but the DNR allows it, oh well.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

My friend and I just got back from a 4-day hunt on our lease in WI. We saw over 20 different bucks in 4 days of hunting! We saw only 6 or 7 yearlings, and the rest were 2.5,3.5,and even 4.5 to 5.5. As the rutting intesified, we saw fewer and fewer yearlings, and more mature bucks. During the 4 days, we saw around the same number of does, as bucks. We both saw does in a couple of large bunches 1 time, or we would have seen more bucks than does by 2:1. My friend saw more bucks last weekend, than his entire MI hunting career of over 20 years! We saw bucks at all times of the day, and especially between 8:00 and 11:00. It was not uncommen to sit for 1/2 a day and see 4 bucks of 2.5 years or older, and no does. 

No this isn't some mandated QDM area or such, it's just common farm land such as most of the entire lower 1/2 of MI. The big difference....guys just don't shoot small bucks. Last year during rifle we watched over 30 deer get checked in, and less than 5 were yearlings. Most just don't shoot them.

Same with PA now. I shot the 6th buck I saw on opening day last year, on national forest, by 10:00 in the morning on opening day.

Unfortunately, most really have no idea what it's like to hunt in states that are managed correctly, either by hunters or the state. You've got to see to believe. I like living in MI, but this is my 11th year in a row hunting out of state. I don't do it for the change of senery, but for the quality. My only hope is someday MI will wake up.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

> My only hope is someday MI will wake up.


I hope to, but it will never happen as long as we keep our traditions, and our ITS LEGAL TO SHOOT ANYTHING mentality.


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## arrowchaser (Nov 25, 2002)

Let it snow,Let it snow,Let it snow. That is great!

Eye1, See what you started. ROFLMAO!!!!!


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## quillbackCARPSUCKER (Jan 7, 2003)

I agree with Jeff and Mich Buckmaster...Its pretty sad that Michigan has all this potential, yet the majority of hunters don't want a change in the regs that would prevent yearling bucks from being shot... Many hunters seem to have the "if I don't shoot it, somebody else will" mentality. I know there was a vote before this deer season in Montcalm County where they tried to make a minimum size limit for Bucks...This would have been a great step forward BUT it was voted down...

Like others said, if you travel out-of-state to hunt, you would really notice the difference between our states' "kill anything with a 3" horn" hunters and the hunters in other states. In some states, you literally would be laughed at and frowned upon for killing a yearling buck...Its like shooting a button buck(which ppl do regularly in good ole MICH)...

BUT in Michigan, the age structure of our deer herd is WAY out of whack...The majority of hunters shoot the first buck they see...and it would be really hard to change their minds. Most people don't realize how much the quality of hunting could improve if all hunters passed on yearling bucks....So what if you don't get a shot at a big mature buck the first few years...fill your freezer with does...its not like a 6point rack makes a wall-hanger anyways...

Maybe someday the DNR will wake up and make a law requiring bucks to be of a certain size/number of points to be legal in Mich. It will take a few years for things to improve, but man, it would be awesome if that happended...Till then, I'll be looking for leases in Illinois/Iowa, where they know how to manage their deer herd...


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

quillback,
I'm not so sure that the majority of hunters don't want to increase the antler restrictions. What they want is something that will be easy to enforce and not a giant leap all at one time.
Protecting spikes in the UP and protecting bucks with less than 3 antler points on one side in the LP would be such a move. Let's do that for 2-3 years then decided if we want to further increase the restrictions. I believe that we would.
I believe the proposal in Montcalm Co. failed for these 2 reasons. Too big of a jump at one time to protect bucks with less than 4 antler points on one side and it would be very easy to violate and just take your smaller buck to a neighboring County for processing where no questions would be asked.
If the DNR/NRC presents a good plan with valid reasons I believe the support would be there right now.

L & O


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## huntingfool43 (Mar 16, 2002)

mtm 

I got news for ya I do not sit on anyones fence row and try to steal their deer! What right dose QDM have to tell anyone what a quality deer is? You or any supporters think with our hunting numbers at close to 3 times that of Ill. might have something to due with the problem? Why is it antler size keeps poping up but yet QDM is not about antler size? Yea right. QDM= Trophy Antler Management IMO


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by mtm _
> *.....fawns all born when they should be, with 6(SIX) months of nutrition under their belt, not 3-5 months... *


I assume by the above that you mean 3-5 months AFTER they are born to get nutrients in before the start of winter (late born fawns). If not, they I'm a bit confused by the statement.


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## skulldugary (Apr 12, 2003)

Tell the neighbors that you are managing your lease for bigger bucks then post the property as a QDM area and you wonder why people are hunting your fence lines...DUH!! Maybe your attempts to bring your staunch beliefs to others has come back to haunt ya....Maybe you should have practiced it and said nothing to the neighbors.I would like to see some form of QDM made in to law,maybe no spikes or 4 pts., but until then I'll continue to feed my family the deer I shoot be it a doe,spike,3 pt. or what ever.........


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## Ken Browning (Sep 11, 2003)

I believe the fact that my father having only seen one buck in the last 6 years (btw, im talking about just rifle season) is not a testimonial to the herd structure, it is a testimonial to the total slaughter of the deer herd in northeast Michigan. There is not much of a "herd" left!

To the average hunter, a piece of paper that says someone is a Biologist doesnt mean a whole lot. I would say the overwhelming majority of hunters in MI are the average kind. That doesnt mean we know any less or more about deer, genetics, herd structure, nutrition, ect......than a biologist. Ultimately, the most important result in QDM is to grow the biggest bucks possible. Tell me otherwise and I dont believe you. I dont believe any QDM'er would tell me they go into the woods hoping to see the biggest doe they can find. Like I said, would I like to shoot more big bucks. HECK YA!!!! Will I take a lesser buck? HECK YA!!!!! I am content to wait 10 more years to kill a big one while taking smaller ones in between. If I never kill another big buck, then so be it. I believe the antler craze has blinded many people to what hunting is all about. Its not about bragging rights, its about family, fun, and totally enjoying yourself. As long as you are happy with what you see liing on the forest floor in front of you, then that is quality whether it is a spike or huge 10 point or a doe. However everyones definition of quality is different.
Read the story in the November 1997 NOrth American Whitetail titled "Why do you hunt?" We all hunt for different reasons.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

After much consideration, (and browbeating by some unnamed Moderator  ) I have come to the conclusion that QDM is a good idea, and antler restrictions should be implemented. I will not go into the myriad of reasons for my seeing the light, there are pages upon pages of info out there........


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## eye1zLotto (Jun 1, 2003)

So,ESOX, I wasn't alone in making that same observation:


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I do believe you failed to notice the wink. They look like this:
.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

I'm glad you mentioned N.E. Michigan, what a perfect example of deer mis-management. This is what happens when you manage deer of quantity, and not quality......And that is what we are talking about. The quality of the herd, NOT the quality of a individual deer. The elimination of the deer herd in that area has nothing to do with QDM, it has to do with an unfortunate disease.



> I would say the overwhelming majority of hunters in MI are the average kind. That doesnt mean we know any less or more about deer, genetics, herd structure, nutrition, ect......than a biologist.


What??? are you serious? the average hunters knows as much about the science of deer management, as some who has spent a lifetime studying it? If we put a average hunter and say John Ogzoga, Charles alsheimer, James Kroll in the same room and had a question and answer session, I think this would prove itself out.

Big antlers........are there many that manage their deer herd for big antlers?, yes, but by definition it is not QDM. 

Anyway, good discussing this with you, I'm outta here in a few hours for one last try with the bow, before the gun opener. Good Luck and be safe.

Neal


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## eye1zLotto (Jun 1, 2003)

to you too.

I'll be soon going out to send a "bambigram" myself here a little later.

Roger,over and out til mOnday!


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken Browning _
> *Ultimately, the most important result in QDM is to grow the biggest bucks possible. Tell me otherwise and I dont believe you.*


This statement proves that you do NOT understand QDM. PLEASE do a little research as to what it is before you come here and blast it. It is impossible for your statement to be taken seriously when you are making an argument against something that ISN'T QDM. I would be willing to explain to you what QDM is; but I have a feeling that you will not listen.


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## mtm (Nov 14, 2003)

Most, I say "most" because like in nature there is always an exception to the rule, of the people who see QDM in action like what it does for them/hunter/manager and most importantly their hunting...it is like a big horse pill for some of you because it is a change from what you may have been taught or done for many years...We have never said that QDM would be easy...but like the big horse pill it...it does make you feel better. I no longer have the desire to manage the herd improperly and to be there for just the idea to say that I killed every deer I saw/see...I have a much better understanding of the deer than I did when I was much younger...and it just does not make biological sense to devistate the herd as may have been done in some areas by overharvesting/mismanagement by hunters and the taking of too many deer or not enough deer which can be just as harmful in my opinion...It is not rocket science and I do not see the reason others feel they must go into the woods and just be there to kill anything and everything they can...I am however for learning and developing the skills to properly manage the wonderful, beautiful and magnificant creature... the whitetail deer. We have taken four deer over 170 pounds in our one mile stretch that I know of...but there are many more that meet that same weight class...and it is a truly awsome sight to seeeeeee!!! Last year, I know of at least two that broke the 200 lb field dress weight class. Sorry...but eigth years ago, we were lucky if one of these same species/sex would be over 120 lbs...is it a change...you bet!!! A darn good one in my mind and much better balance for those that hunt the herd. Tonights hunt with my daugther and someone I invited along to shoot a doe...he saw the six point, still running six days into the gun season...but he also saw a doe...she no longer runs...he the six does...teachable moment for may kid...taught my daugther the importance of taking females and balancing the herd. Talked with another gentleman today..he had been trying to get his neighbor to let the little boys walk...yes they are just little males...This year his neighbor shot a big one(2.5 year+)...seems to be convinced now that they do get bigger if you do not shoot every one of them that you see...said "He had never been so nervous shooting a deer"...what a RUSH!!!! You gotta feel it to believe it...and it feeeeeels sooooo goooooooood!!!! I do not have to kill a buck every year just to prove that I have genitals...but I sure do enjoy the meat from a female and there are just as many, if not more of them in many areas...Take a doe and let the little 1.5 male GO!!! You say it is all about the hunt and if you enjoy the hunt so much...try it for a little longer...learn to identify and manage with a little understanding of herd and the dynamics that are involved in it!!! Traditional deer management is about mismanagement...Trophy management is NOT QDM...Trophy is about shooting 5-6 year old mature bucks...QDM is about Total herd management...learning about what is good for the herd and those that hunt within it!!! It feels great and it is great to hunt in areas that see the benefits of it!!!! Like the man says..."Try, Try it and you'll see...Green Eggs(QDM) and ham are good for you... and me!!!" It is not that hard...it just takes a little on your and my part...and those that manage the herd!! Good Luck and Good hunting!!!


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