# Top this one farmlegend.



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by farmlegend 10-01-2003_
> *... 3.5 year old, 130# dressed doe...
> 
> ...These older does dominate the territory on my farm, driving out bucks, and it feels great to come out of the gate and take a solid step toward effective herd management. *


 Took my muzzleloader killed doe the the Bay City DNR office/check station today to have her aged. This is what the biologist said:

*"WHOA-is she old. 
Look at that. 
She is at least 10. 
You did good."*

Now that is a matriarch doe. Also a great trophy for my first season hunting with a muzzleloader.

I will take the lower jaw bone to the January, Mid-Michigan branch meeting. I want to see if some the experts agree with the biologist.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Great job, Bob!!!

Took my third doe Sunday Evening.

Score card.

1- 2.5 yo 7-PT (shotgun)
1- 1yo Doe (shotgun)
1- 2.5 yo Doe (44 Mag.)
1- age to be determined doe (Muzzy)

Neal


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Bob,
That is one mature doe!! I would suspect past her ability to successfully carry fawns. Did ya give her a chance ta get ou

tta her wheel chair before ya shot??....LOL!.......Just teasing a bit! 

Was she with other deer and if so, did she seem to be the lynchpin that held the group together?


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

You got me beat, Bob. Congratulations. Just goes to show that even the wariest of matriarchs can occasionally be fooled by a well-presented pile of sugar beets. 

Incidentally, Whit, it's my understanding that free-ranging, wild does remain productive for their entire lives. The idea of an "old, dry doe" is mostly a northwoods myth. The myth likely arose from an earlier era, when it was considered impolite (at best) to harvest a doe. Accidental shooting of a doe could be shrugged off, by rationalizing, "heck, she was a big old doe, and probably dry".


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

For starters, when I went out I didn`t carry any of my heavy clothes, I wore everything. So I was sweating pretty good.

I hadn`t seen anything, then about 9:10am 4 does/fawns came in from the neighbor`s property to the south. I wasn`t concerned about size. I was going to take a shot at the first deer to step into an opening in the trees, as long as it didn`t have buttons. They were moving behind several balsam fir and didn`t offer a shot. When they reached the trail that I had walked in on they must have still smelled they stinky hunter that walked through an hour and 40 minutes earlier. They just mulled around for about 5 minutes and would not cross my trail.

Then two of them started to meander my direction. I was just real lucky that this doe was the first one to step into an opening. Took the shot at about 35 yards. She ran broadside to me for about 35 yards and went down in an area of several dead falls. I could see the hole in her side from the 295 grain PowerBelt bullet as she ran. I assumed she was the dominate doe of the group as the other three ran over to where she fell and stood there for a minute or two before they ran off.

She field dressed at 100 lbs. She was not lactating, but this late in the season that may not mean anything. So I don`t know if both of the fawns were from one doe, or one from each.

The advanced age of the doe just makes it so much more exciting. As it wasn`t exciting enough getting a deer my first year muzzleloading.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Great Job! 

My oldest doe was taken last year, 7.5 yrs. She lived a great life, fat as a hog with 2 buttons tagging along. Head like a boat oar! Still proud of that deer, jaw bone hangs with pride, right next to all the others.

We have taken a total of 7 does this year, with the late season upon us I hope to make it an even 10. 

No bucks taken, yet.


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

We have taken 5 does off the property so far this year.

Of those five I happened to take the two oldest. One aged at 5.5 years and the other at age 7.5 to 8.5 years. When they get past 5.5 or so the biologists admit that field judging the age by looking at the teeth becomes questionable. The lab (cutting a cross section of a tooth) has much better success in getting the age correct.

In any case, when they get in bow range and their head looks like it belongs to a horse I try to do my part of the management program. 

Ya, when the biologist say "this is an old one, a REAL OLD ONE," the meat grinder is the first thing that comes to mind. 

Back-straps and burger----yum yum.....tm


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

You guys are better hunters than me. My oldest doe ever was 4.5 years of age. The older ones have a knack for giving me the slip just before I can execute a succesful draw.

We've taken 6 does so far this year. One 3.5, two 2.5, two 1.5, and one 0.5. 

I hope to hit it pretty hard in the final week. Great feeling to 2x lung one with snow on the ground just as the season expires.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by farmlegend _
> * Great feeling to 2x lung one with snow on the ground just as the season expires. *


That reminds me of a doe I took several years ago in December. She was a martriarch and very large, however I didn't have her aged.

I was hunting of M22 north of Onekama at the top of the hill that rises from Portage Lake. It is quite a hill. I shot, the deer took off going west. Knowing the shot was solid, I took up the tracks after only a few minutes. In the foot deep snow Blind Franky could have followed the trail. In about 100 yds. I could look ahead and saw the tracks angled toward the edge of a steep drop that decscended towards the lake.

"Oh no!", I thought, "she's dropped over the lip and went to the bottom of the steep, long slope."

Sure enough when I looked over the edge of the hill there lay the doe at the bottom. She dropped about a 1/3 of the way down and slide the rest of way, coming to stop about 50 yds. below where I stood.

I knew the lay of the land, however, and was able to hike back to my truck, and with 4 wheel drive on a known 2-track road, got to within 200 yds of where she lay, and, importantly, on the same level so I didn't have to drag her up those slippery slopes. I saved about a 1/2 drag through the woods back to the highway.

The hit was a double lung penetration, but she still went over 100 yds. before expiring and sliding down that hill.


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

I'd rather be lucky than good any day Farmlegend 

I've been seeing a good number of deer during the last half hour of legal light. I've only one tag left and don't want to end the years hunting just yet.

Now if I'm realy lucky, maybe on the 1st of January.....................................


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Good story, Whit. Since it's Christmas, I'll share my favorite late season story. I apologize for its length. A really beautiful hunt, with a somewhat ugly twist, and a happy ending.

Remember December of 2000? In my area, we had multiple blizzards, snow was knee deep, temps were low. Roads went unplowed for considerable periods. I was finally able to get out on the 31st, with my Jeep loaded down with gear and shovels. My farm is accessed from a seasonal road which is never plowed in the winter. It took some doing to drive down to where I parked, which was right on the road. No matter, no other vehicles used the road that afternoon or evening.

I chose the only stand practical to hunt that day; only about 200 yards in from the road, in a big, forked Black Walnut, located within a brushy fencerow, near the NW corner of a 17 acre plot of still-standing corn (an aside - the stand was nicknamed "Ray Bolger", that's right, for the scarecrow) . The corn had been well-battered by weather and deer, and any critters travelling through the corn (which included a tough covey of quail that year) were well-visible from my stand.

I settled into the treestand for the afternoon vigil. Temp was about 18F, which was warmer than it had recently been, and there was a light NW wind. The sky was perfectly clear. I have never seen a bluer sky in Michigan than we had on that day; almost a deep, azure blue, like you sometimes get in the mountains out west. The contrast between the blue, blue sky and the white, white snow made for the most strikingly beautiful hunt that I can remember. As I faced mostly east with the sun at my back, the landscape before me was amazingly picturesque and the memory of it is vivid to this day. From my perch, I could see the rolling CRP fields, the hills, swales, and woodlots, as well as the distant stand of mature Norway Spruce way over at my now-inaccessable campsite. I wished that everyone I knew could be up here in my tree with me to see this sight! 

Soon, the deer appeared. Against the snowy background, they were hard to miss. Most were far off, some moving along distant hillsides, all getting an early start at heading to their chosen feeding locations. The exception was a surviving 1.5 year old buck, which materialized in the corn. The deer were mostly in groups of 2-4, and appeared with regularity as the hunt proceeded. All in all, I must have seen at least 20 of them, which is a pretty big number to me.

With a good 30 minutes of light remaining, a group of 4 antlerless deer moved out of a swamp to my northwest and headed across a CRP field in my general direction. The first deer into the thin corn was a doe fawn, which I decided to take. She paused within range, I drew my bow, but she suddenly pranced into the corn before I could release. Next a button buck wandered by, followed by a young doe which circled out of range. Finally, a 2.5 year old doe gingerly stepped into the corn, took a few steps, and came to a stop, 20 yards out, and looking away from me. I drew, and was careful to take my time to close the deal on this "tap-in" shot. I carefully and deliberately picked a spot, anchored, and, waited a split second too long; just as the arrow was released, the doe suddenly lunged forward. I had hit just a smidge too far back! She slowly walked into the corn, and I could see blood dripping from the entrance wound. I could also see the nock of my bloody arrow sticking out of the snow, where it had cleanly passed through her. Not good.

I fished out another arrow, and launched the lowest-percentage shot of my life, at this wounded deer, now perhaps 40 yards distant, walking through the corn. I wasn't sure if I connected, but the shot did cause her to change direction, and she began to walk straight north. She afforded me another walking shot, this time at something over 30 yards. Upon impact, she seemed to hesitate, but continued walking. I was down to my last arrow, and she now came to a stop along the northern edge of the corn, again close to 40 yards away. This time, immediately after the arrow passed through her, she fell over, briefly twitched, and died. My goodness, what a relief. For the first time in my hunting career, I lowered my bow to the ground with an empty quiver, then returned to my Jeep to get my utility sled to facilitate dragging her to the road. 

As I dressed her at roadside with my lantern ablaze, I contemplated the solitude of the whole hunt experience - I doubt if any hunters at all were afield in my vicinity that day, and I never heard a hint of vehicular traffic. Though I was in southern Michigan farm country, it was as if there was no human presence at all save for my own. 

When the autopsy was complete, I found that I had hit her with all four arrows; the first, just barely behind the diaphragm; the 2nd, the worst, a paunch hit; the 3rd double lunged her, and she likely would have fallen over quickly making the 4th (which got the heart) unnecessary. 

A very memorable day for me. 

Merry Christmas to my MSF friends.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Great story FL Nice shooting

It's nice to hear I'm not the only who who endures the cold and solidtude of last season bow hunting.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

FL,
Great story my friend. Worthy of publishing!


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## Proteus (Dec 14, 2003)

Journalism at its best. Pulitzer material for sure!


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## Grouse Hunter (Jan 23, 2000)

Bob,

I took a doe during the archery season that was aged at 10+. Her teeth were well worn. She was not lactating. Was there evidence of your deer lactating?


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## Ron Howard (Nov 10, 2003)

There use to be a matriarch doe on my parents property in Livingston County. We called her "Big Foot". She had a very distinct foot print, her right rear hoof was a split toe, and they were very large. For a few years we just assumed that they were from a very big buck, until she came out under my tree stand one afternoon and I was able to identify her track. I learned a lot from her. She would bust me everytime I would see her. She usually had at least two fawns with her, and one years she had four. I think she adopted two from her previouse offspring that was hit by a car. One year she set up her fawn nursery right under one of my tree stands. I would get on stand about 3:30 pm. and by 3:45 I would spot her and her fawns coming in. The fawns would bed down right under me and she would wander around just out of bow range. Not that I would of shot her, she was too interesting and she was a good teacher. She would kick older fawns off the bait so the younger ones could eat. One time I saw her box (get up on her back legs and punch with her front hoofs) a young buck off the bait. She must have been at least nine years old. Then one year she wasn't around any more. We figured that she either got hit by a car or died of natural causes because she was too smart to get shot. It just hasn't been the same with out her. The deer just haven't been as abundant since she has been gone. She was truely a martiarch.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

RH,
That's a great story. Thanks for sharing it with us.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Grouse Hunter _
> *Bob,...
> Was there evidence of your deer lactating? *


 No, she was not lactating. As late into the season as it was, December 21, I don`t know if that was of significance. She was with another doe and two fawns. I believe I had seen those four deer on two other occasions from that same stand. The first time on October 1, and again towards the end of October. Don`t have the exact date since my records are up at camp. I don`t know if one fawn was from each doe or both of the fawns were from just one of the does.

I am going to take the jaw bone to the January 10, QDMA meeting at Jay`s. I want to see if some of the more experienced deer agers agree with the DNR biologist.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

I just love to read the stories of respect and admiration for the country we call home and her inhabitants 

ferg....


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Update to my story, 10 1/2 years confirmed.

I took the jawbone from my old doe to the QDMA Mid-Michigan branch meeting yesterday. Ed Spinazzola said he believed she was 10 1/2. Most of the guys that had an opinion also said 10 1/2. A couple guys said 8 1/2-10 1/2. One even said 11 1/2. 

Richard King had a jawbone from one of his does this past season that he aged at 10 1/2. It looked like it could have been a twin of mine. 

So I will put 10 1/2 into my records. This was a fantastic deer season.


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## Grouse Hunter (Jan 23, 2000)

So you value the opinion of QDM guys more than that of a highly educated biologist?


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Grouse Hunter, as for the second opinion, The DNR Rose Lake lab aged my buck differently than the field biologist. All highly educated biologist, aren`t going to look at a deer`s teeth and come up with the same age every time. Aging deer is not an exact science, it is somewhat subjective. Especially with older deer. Therefore I wanted other opinions. Just because one biologist says 10 1/2 doesn`t mean all will say the same thing. 

As for trusting the opinion of QDM guys, Ed Spinazzloa and a few others have taken the states aging class to be qualified to age deer in DMU118.


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## Grouse Hunter (Jan 23, 2000)

I was just curious about your opinion.
It is somewhat subjective because deer forage on different items in different habitat types. A deer that eats acorns and twigs will show more wear than one eating corn and alfalfa. 


I just find that people are continually trying to discredit biologists. Which, to some extent should be expected. Some people read "whitetail intrigue" or "Quality whitetails" or go to seminar and all of a sudden they are a biologist. I find myself a little sensitive to this. I spent 5 years, thousands of dollars, and tons of lowpaying internships pursuing wildlife biology. I would suspect that a biologist has seen hundreds if not thousands more jaw bones than most of those guys. Experience is a big factor in this regard.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Grouse Hunter _
> *I would suspect that a biologist has seen hundreds if not thousands more jaw bones than most of those guys. Experience is a big factor in this regard. *


 That is all fine and good. But the fact remains, the highly experienced biologist at Rose Lake came up with a different age for my firearm buck than did the highly experienced biologist at Houghton Lake.

If you want to come to the Hunting Time Expo at Birch Run next month I can have the jawbone at the QDMA booth and you can see if you agree with the highly experienced biologist from the Bay City check station.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Bob S

It does not surprise me one bit. While checking in my second doe of the year I had one person tell me 2.5 and the other tell me 3.5 years of age. I'm not being critical of the DNR personnel manning the check in sites just pointing out that it's not an exact science as is estimating the herd size.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

I agree with you Luv2hunteup. I didn`t think that by wanting another opinion on a 10 1/2 year old deer that I was being critical of the DNR`s biologists. Apparently some people see it that way though.


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## Grouse Hunter (Jan 23, 2000)

I didn't want to make a big deal out of this. But, After 2 additional posts I guess I should reply. You didn't ask another biologst for a second opinion you asked Ed and some QDM guys. It was only after he said it was 10.5 that you decided to put in your books. What if Ed said 6.5? I personally don't care and at this point wished I would have left my comments to myself. It's apparant that you have a lot of respect for the QDM guys. Thats great! Me, I wouldn't go to amateurs for a professional opinion.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Grouse Hunter, go grind your axe somewhere else. You have no idea whatsoever of the expertise of non-professional biologists that estimated the age of Bob's deer, based on tooth wear.

Unless a wildlife biologist has a specific expertise in whitetail deer (and most do not), I'll trust my own ability to age deer.


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## Grouse Hunter (Jan 23, 2000)

No axe to grind FL. 
I don't remember ever critiquing you aging abilty. 
I made some very general comments and all of a sudden this becomes an attack on me. I have honestly been wondering for so long how QDM gets its poor image in many hunters eyes. Guys say the image of eliteness and "better than you" attitude turns them off. I honestly thought they were crazy. I see now how many get that opinon.

I'm a QDM member and I practice much of what they preach. I know of Ed and have talked to him several times. I think he's great and have a lot of respect for him as do I respect many of the other QDM affiliates. With all do respect they do not have the training or experience of any biologist I have ever met. Some of you guys may have met with wildlife technicians and confused them with biologists. There is a big difference in many cases.


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Regardless of the experience level at aging, along with training / professional background , anything over 6 years usually becomes a guesstimate unless it was a penned deer.

And some QDMA members are very experienced at aging and have received considerable training, while others have not. The MDNR biologists are required to take the aging test annually.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

It's like going to the doctor when you're sick and the first doctor say's "you have 6 months to live". You go for a second opinion and the other doctor says "take two aspirin and you'll be fine". Bottom line is people want to hear the positive news, not the negative. Both people are intelligent people, and neither should be criticized. It appears that aging a deer is somewhat like medicine....subjective to some extent. The nature of the science makes definitive answers difficult. 

Like my 78 year old Dad says, "Opinions are like A$$holes.....everyone has one and they all stink!"


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Aging is very tough even for the most experienced. It's funny when you look at a video and the guy says that's only 4 1/2 years old, we'll let him go. 

There is a reason that the Sanctuary up in Morley went to trying to tag as many buck fawns as they can, because that's the only way to exactly tell how old their bucks are.


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## Ed Spin (Mar 20, 2003)

Just for the record.

My first experince in aging deer goes back to Texas in 1994 in an intense deer management boot camp put on by Dr James Kroll. I can't imagine having a better tutor. I have been to Lansing for two years and lately in Midland for two more years taking the MDNR refresher course and deer jawbone ageing tests. As you know Grouse hunter there are fifty jawbones and they are the same ones every year. so you would think that it gets easier. Five years ago I had six wrong out of the fifty jawbones. the very next year I had 13 wrong. I spent some time with Tom Cooly, whom I'm sure you know and went over my wrong decisions. The most that I was off was one year and Tom said it is not that important to be that accurate after 2 and 1/2 year old deer. He said they want the fawns aged accurately and the 1 1/2 year olds (which are the easiest). Anything beyound this are considered older deer but a good attempt at aging is still important with a need to be fairly accurate on the 2 1/2 year olds. 

Tom thought as does the local field biologist in gladwin that the 2 1/2 versus the 3 1/2 year olds are easily mixed. Bob S's jawbone was a guess of being anywhere between a 9 1/2 to a 11 1/2 year old. 

Grouse hunter You are on the money as far as the impact on what deer eat affecting the tooth wear, as I was, faced with aging Texas versus Michigan farm deer. They must eat a lot of sand in Texas.

In any event Grouse hunter there may be a few hunters who have heartburn with MDNR personnel and their decisions, but I do not know of any QDMers who do not respect their knowledge and hard earned skills, as I recently told Rod Glute. "We may not agree with your decisions but we listen to you much more than we do to self appointed experts and it is the statements made by DNR officials whom we quote". 

Keep the fun in hunting!


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## Grouse Hunter (Jan 23, 2000)

Ed, you're a class act!


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by farmlegend _
> *Incidentally, Whit, it's my understanding that free-ranging, wild does remain productive for their entire lives. The idea of an "old, dry doe" is mostly a northwoods myth. The myth likely arose from an earlier era, when it was considered impolite (at best) to harvest a doe. Accidental shooting of a doe could be shrugged off, by rationalizing, "heck, she was a big old doe, and probably dry". *


 Took me a while to find this, but I ran across it this morning. It confirms what farmlegend said.



> Old age has little effect on productivity and several studies have documented very old does(12 or older) consistently producing twins. Thus, the "old barren doe" is just a myth. A doe can be expected to remain productive up to the year of her death.


Dr. Harry A. Jacobson


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## Fencereaux (Mar 15, 2004)

I believe John Ozoga has also noted the productivity of old does from the Cusino research days.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Thanks Ed, for yr words of wisdom. You've hit the 10 ring again, as usual.

BTW, I'm for ANY reg changes that will save "Sparky the Wonderbuck".

Natty B


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by NATTY BUMPO _
> *Thanks Ed, for yr words of wisdom. You've hit the 10 ring again, as usual. *


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