# Pigeon River Advisory Council Meeting to Discuss Eliminating Guiding in the PRSF



## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

For anyone who guides there, this is a meeting you will want to attend. 

The Pigeon River Advisory Council will be holding a public (but not publicized) meeting on September 21st at 6:00pm at the pigeon river headquarters to discuss the possibile elimination of all hunting guides in the PRSF. 

I would encourage anyone that has an opinion for or against the subject matter to attend this meeting.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

SR, I have a couple friends on the council. Based on the feedback I have been getting, MDNR does not assign areas for guides to operate in the Pigeon River Country. As a result they can pile in where ever they please having a serious negative impact on other users who do not pay to play. 

One of the council members recently sent me a PARTIAL LISTof individuals MDNR gave the free state land use guiding permits to for 2011. The list does not include employees...just the permit holders. There is CURRENTLY 80 individuals on the list. Sixty list downstate phone numbers. That's a lot of commercializing on state land 
assuming most of the downstate permit holders operate in the NLP. Especially when you consider the guide is assuming exclusive use of each bait site he puts out on state land...and that's what the customer is paying for.

Bottom line, some feel the Pigeon River Country is the NLP's last wild place and should not be subjected to uncontrolled commercializing. Ultimately, it got to this point because MDNR failed to manage guiding.


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> SR, I have a couple friends on the council. Based on the feedback I have been getting, MDNR does not assign areas for guides to operate in the Pigeon River Country. As a result they can pile in where ever they please having a serious negative impact on other users who do not pay to play.
> 
> One of the council members recently sent me a PARTIAL LISTof individuals MDNR gave the free state land use guiding permits to for 2011. The list does not include employees...just the permit holders. There is CURRENTLY 80 individuals on the list. Sixty list downstate phone numbers. That's a lot of commercializing on state land
> assuming most of the downstate permit holders operate in the NLP. Especially when you consider the guide is assuming exclusive use of each bait site he puts out on state land...and that's what the customer is paying for.
> ...


Rooster, 

I will not comment on bear guiding operations as I don't get involved much in bear hunting at all. 

I am one of the state land use permit holders with a downstate phone number. I live in Gaylord and am in the Pigeon almost every day, if not twice a day this time of year. 

There are 80 on your list with a state land use permit to use land from Monroe County to Baraga County. That covers everything from ducks to elk and back again. There are not 80 on your list that are hunting in the PRSF. As I said, I'm out there alot. I see the same local guys out there all the time. 

I agree, without a doubt that guiding needs to be regulated by the DNR. I believe the insurance implementation will begin to weed out alot of junk out there. There are "guides" whom can't even legally own a firearm. There are "guides" with multiple game law violations. It is my opinion that a guide should be held to a higher standard than the hunting community in regards to these, and actually brought that up last week at the elk guides meeting with the DNR. 

I think you'll see a significant drop in "guides" with the insurance implementation next year, and I really wish the DNR would step up to the plate and examine the people they are giving these land use permits to. 

It is my opinion that the council would be opening the state up to a lawsuit if guiding were banned. It will only take one time where a hunter gets injured/lost or dies from a heart attack pulling an animal out of the woods because they don't have the aide of a guide. 

Can you provide me with any documentation that proves what the original purpose of the PRAC was? I don't believe they have the jurisdiction to make this decision by themselves. 

It is my opinion that the members of the council's own interests weigh heavy when they make decisions regarding the PRSF. They have strayed from their original purpose, and I feel the council should be dissolved.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

It is my opinion, the advisory council only makes recommendations and the proposal to seek a ban on guiding in the Pigeon is seeking a consensus on the proposal. If I find out different I will post it. 

I appreciate your position on the need for effective screening and regulations on guiding in Michigan. MDNR is charged by the state legislature to manage all commercial activities on state land...and so far they have not been held accountable. You have to wonder why MUCC has been mute on the issue.


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## shephard1993 (Aug 5, 2009)

I live 1/4 mile north of the pigeon river forests north border. I did not choose to live here, but was born here. I love and respect the pigeon, but still look at it as state land that we pay tax on, no diffrent than any other state land. I have guided here starting in 1992, and hope to continue to due so. I beleave you will find a large portion of the guides that have registered are elk only, that would mean they are using this land for a couple select weeks per season. The state wants the elk numbers controlled, and I can assure you the guides have played a very large part in the success of this managment goal. I can also assure you there is nwere even close to 80 guides operating here. As far as the guide permit being free, that is only this season. The DNR plans to charge next year, along with insurance. This is fine by me, I beleave it is a good thing. Many if not all western states have made money this way for years.


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## shephard1993 (Aug 5, 2009)

If you think the pigeon river advisory council stirred a hornets nest a few years ago, when they thought they could ban horses. Wait untill they try to ban a hand full of local people simply trying to help some folks have a successful and enjoyable hunt. these few guides are willing to do there part and pay for the land use. in todays economy it dosent seem the state should be giving up income. Some sportsmen dont beleave in a guide, others depend on one. I think the guy depending on one payed the same for his lisence as the guy who is against the guide. If someone beleaves the guides are getting rich off of the state they are very wrong. All most are doing is helping to pay for what they truly enjoy. I am sure if I wanted to figure gas gear, bait and what not I can realisticly show a loss year after year. I am fine with the loss because I love helping fellow sportsmen.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Shepard, good to hear the other side of the story. I remember reading a lot of negative things about elk guiding operations in the NLP here in this forum; clients shooting elk out of the vehicle window, stampeded elk across a busy highway, cornering elk using atv's and pick ups then having multiple client start shooting. Seems MDNR ought to be eager to weed out the bad guys. 

Just for the record, this is the second year MDNR has given out free state land use permits. How many guides do you think should be allowed to operate in the Pigeon and still adhere to State Land Use Rules requiring the operations must have a minimal impact on other users? Should you decide to comment, please consider....commercial bear baiting operations are allowed 12 baits per person and the permit currently covers as many "helpers" as they want to add. I am 67 years old and have guided bear hunters off an on since I was 23 years old...and I am here to tell you...commercial bear baiting is easy money, especially considering it is a cash business with no oversight on income.

Further more, if MDNR operated using the best science...like voters mandated...they would at least have some idea how much commercial bear baiting the Pigeon River Country can sustain. One of the advisory council members recently asked the regional MDNR biologist what the bear population is in the Pigeon. He did not know. Don't believe me? I have a letter from Adam Bump written January 25, 2010 stating MDNR does not have data that will support estimating bear numbers even at the BMU level. Yet, they somehow come up with harvest quotas to send to the NRC.


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## shephard1993 (Aug 5, 2009)

Rooster I do not know how many should be allowed to guide in the pigeon, or any other place for that matter. I do think it needs to be limited and controlled within reason. I have guided for pretty much any critter that lives in the pigeon at some point. I agree with you on the bear baiting to a point. I make very little money in bear season. I will explain. I charge 1000 per hunter, and try to stay at 2 hunters per season, if I feel my local population is up I may take 3. I run 4 to 6 baits per night for 30 days. This will cost around 400 in bait alone, I dont want to talk gas in the pickup because if my wife sees it I might be done for. Each location has a $100 camera, and $100 tree stand. This is not counting wear and tear on the truck or the 3 hours per night after work for better then a month. I beleave you would make more profit by taking more hunters, but dont feel the bears in my area can handle the pressure. I have averaged around 2 for 3 harvest per hunter for many years. I am not saying I didnt make a little extra hunting money for doing what I enjoy, but getting rich I did not. I am easier on, and much more concerned about the animals I hunt then many folks that are against guideing. I feel 99% of my clients over the past 20 years were very glad that the DNR allowed me to guide.
This will make alot of peaple mad, but I call a spade a spade, and will deal with the flack I get on my own. A whole bunch of the so called elk guides in this state should not be allowed to hunt much less guide some poor sap. All you have stated happens, and more. I will assure you I hate this type hunting as much as anyone. I feel bad for the guys that got stuck hunting with these outfits. I have helped to harvest many including some of the nicest bulls ever harvested in the state. My hunters do not ride hour after hour in a mobil blind, or shoot at every thing that moves. We go out of our way to find a very mature animal, and strive to harvest him ethically or not at all. My clients know up front if this is not what ya want to do find someone else. 
All I am trying to say is the DNR needs to test, and regulate the guideing in Michigan including the pigeon,not eliminate it.. They have a opertunity to make a little money, and still help our sportsmen that truley need, and choose to hunt with a guide. 
I will leave this by saying as far as populations are concerned a guide in Michigajn has never had extra tags. We are only helping people that purchased a lisence from the state. As long as the biologist is doing his part the guide has no power over hurting a population. Most every hunter I have ever guided spent his or her money in local motels, restraunts, gas stations, taxidermists, sport shops, and so on and on. Last I checked none of the towns surrounding the pigeon were bubbling over with cash, and I am sure they appreciated me and my clients spending a little money. In 20 years of guideing I cant recall ever haveing a issue with a fellow sportsmen hunting on his own. We let them do there thing while we do ours. All would be better off if they followed this simple practice.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Shepard, many thanks for your well stated post. MDNR and the NRC are directly responsible for the mess unregulated and uncontrolled guiding has become in Michigan.


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## shephard1993 (Aug 5, 2009)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Shepard, many thanks for your well stated post. MDNR and the NRC are directly responsible for the mess unregulated and uncontrolled guiding has become in Michigan.


 
I agree to a extent, but feel that some of the wana be guides that have left a bad taste in alot of Michigans great sportsmen are also very responsible. This needs to be addressed and stopped. There are bad guys in every walk of life. If a pro ball player is caught useing drugs he is suspended, but ball games go on. Race car drivers may suffer a fine, but the race is still run. murders and thiefs are put in prison, good guys are still free. The shadey guides need to be held responsible and punished if need be, but guideing dosnt need to be banned.


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## blckrivredbones (Aug 12, 2009)

I don't guide but I live just outside the Pigeon River Country. I hunt everything from whitetail to **** in the PRC. I spend as much if not more time there than most. I can assure you that there are not 80 guides actively guiding in the PRC. The elk guide list a just a list of every Tom, Dick and Harry that thinks they are an elk guide. There's an old saying that 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the game. The same is true for the elk guide list. Of those 80 only about 15 are actively guiding and only about 8 (or less) know what they are doing. With that being said, I don't care if there's 8 Million names on the list. The "list" means nothing because those people just aren't out there. I'm not a fan of government controlling what belongs to the people. The guides like Shep have never bothered me nor am I opposed to them helping other people harvest an animal. 

Here's a news flash for all of the tree-hugging morons, downstater's and citiots that think the PRC is a vast pristine wilderness. IT'S NOT. I've walked darn near every square inch of it. I've spent some time in a real vast wilderness called Alaska and Northern British Columbia. Sorry to ruin your fantasy but the PRC is no different that any other large tract of state land. You people that want to limit access so you can live out your Walden Pond fantasy and pick a bag of mushrooms are self serving, anti-hunting imbiciles. 

The PRC belongs to all the citizens of Michigan, not the John Muir wannabe's of the PRC Advisory Council. 

Keep your damn government regulations downstate.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Redbones, my original post stated, the current list had 80 individuals that had been given state land use permits for guiding with 60 of those 80 operations listing NLP contact numbers. Never said anything about 
80 different guiding operations in the PRC. How many commercial bear baiting operations can operate in the PRC and meet the State Land Use requirement of having a minimal impact on the resource and on other users? Care to offer an opinion?

I was told the PRC is the last wild place in the NLP. Is there some other place down there that offers more than the PRC in terms of what some say has some resemblence of being still fairly remote? 

Big difference between elk guiding and commercial bear baiting. I expect elk guides accompany the client. Large commercial bear baiting operations sell exclusive use of every bait site they set up on state land and do not accompany the client, and they have a lot bigger impact on the resource and a much greater negative impact on other users trying to hunt on the same areas of state land.


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## tallbear (May 18, 2005)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> MDNR is charged by the state legislature to manage all commercial activities on state land...and so far they have not been held accountable.* You have to wonder why MUCC has been mute on the issue.*



And as a member of MUCC, what was their answer when you asked them that question??


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

The issue first came up March 13, 2009 in a meeting in the Baraga Field Office. The current Executive Director was present via teleconference. I brought up the fact guiding on state land without a state land use permit was a violation of Michigan State Land Use Rules. A captian in MDNR's Law Division disagreed saying " state land use rules do not apply to guiding." The MUCC representative made no comment. A couple weeks later I found a copy of a Non-Event State Land Use Permit MDNR's website. There were several activities listed on the permit...one was guiding. Further investigation revealed the permit had been in effect since 2005. MDNR just chose to ignore the fact guiding on state land required a permit. MUCC was made aware of the Non-Event State Land Use Permit where guiding is included. Once it became common knowledge MDNR had been sitting on this issue since 2005...they made a few baby steps in the right direction. Although, here it is 2011 and they still don't have a grip on it.

Also, I was in at least one meeting where MUCC President Paul Rose was present...and the free permit to guide on state land was discussed and it was clear no regulations were in place. Bottom line here...MUCC ought to be concerned over UNREGULATED widescale commercializing on state land, and be motivated to see it managed in a way that meets existing state land use rules. Maybe I am wrong to believe MUCC should be proactive on big issues.


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## tallbear (May 18, 2005)

You sound like you have enough facts to submit a proposal to MUCC to take on the issue. I see this happening at their annaul meeting, but I'm sure I can get a meeting with the current President and perhaps the legislative rep. for MUCC if you'd like.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Tallbear, sending you a private message


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## blckrivredbones (Aug 12, 2009)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Redbones, my original post stated, the current list had 80 individuals that had been given state land use permits for guiding with 60 of those 80 operations listing NLP contact numbers. Never said anything about
> 80 different guiding operations in the PRC. How many commercial bear baiting operations can operate in the PRC and meet the State Land Use requirement of having a minimal impact on the resource and on other users? Care to offer an opinion?
> 
> I was told the PRC is the last wild place in the NLP. Is there some other place down there that offers more than the PRC in terms of what some say has some resemblence of being still fairly remote?
> ...


First of all, there are no large commercial bear baiting operations in the PRC, never has been. There's a few guys that run a half-dozen baits and take a couple of clients each. Anyone that tried to run a large scale baiting operation in the PRC would be in for a rude awakening, there's not a large enough bear population to support one and client success would be 10% but only if they were REALLY lucky. Mio has a much bigger bear population than the PRC. Not to say there isn't large scale bear baiting because there is. You'd be hard pressed to throw a dart at a map of the PRC and not have it hit within a mile of at least one bear bait. There's so many baits that the bears can walk from one bait to the next without having to hit the same one in a week. Baiting right now is pretty ineffective due to the large mast crop of blackberries, blueberries, apples, choke cherries and so on. Don't believe me? Set up a bait and see how long it takes to get hit. Put a camera on it and see how often it gets hit in the daylight. Shooting a bear over a bait in the PRC is a feat many try and most fail. 

It sounds to me like you have a lot of faith in the DNR. I personally don't. I believe they're incompetent. They didn't have the balls to keep the baiting ban on for deer hunting statewide. Since the baiting ban the buck/doe ratio where I hunt has gotten much better and I'm seeing a lot more bucks and more mature bucks. The last 2 years I've seen more bucks than does on public land. If you need bait to kill a deer you're not a deer hunter, you're a deer shooter. 

The DNR banned commercial snapping turtle trapping a few years ago based on the opinion of one turtle expert from MSU. Really? They asked a dude that dedicated his life to studying turtles whether or not they should be eaten? There were only 8 licensed commercial trappers in the state and the number of turtles harvested was about 800 per year. The "ex-spurt" said that was unsustainable. I knew an old dude that trapped turtles in Washtenaw County for 40 years and sold the soup at his restaurant in Dexter. He harvested 400 or more a year right near his house. Idiots.

Sorry but I don't take my advice from the self-proclaimed ex-spurts. I live it and see it with my own eyes. Ask the DNR how many elk there are in the state. LMAO. Want a bigger laugh? Ask them how many wolves are in the U.P. I'd laugh out loud but it's not funny...

As far as "remote" country in the NLP. Abitibe was the last really remote land but it got sold off in parcels. PRC is not remote. You could drop me off anywhere you want and I'll be standing on a road in a half hour or less. That's not remote. 

The point is, it's not a vast untouched wilderness. They're hauling timber out of there by the semi load every day. Want peace and quiet? Walk out in the PRC on a quiet September morning to listen to the elk and enjoy the sound of a processor zipping trees off as fast as it can in the distance. On a clear cold spring morning you can hear a turkey shock gobble when a tree hits the ground. It might be the last tom in the PRC due to the ridiculous number of spring permits offered for the last 10 years.

The PRC is a great place for people to recreate but it shouldn't be made off limits to anyone other than the ex-spurts. They're the problem, not the solution.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Redbones, I appreciate your information on the PRC. You obviously know it well. I did know bear numbers are low, based on what old veteran hound hunters have been experiencing. It is good to learn the large scale commercial baiters are not operating in the PRC.

As for having faith in the DNR, I don't. I have a fair amount of documentation in my files from DNR officials who have provided misleading and false information on management issues. There are a lot of well qualified folks in MDNR, others have sold their credibility in exchange for a paycheck.


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## shephard1993 (Aug 5, 2009)

Rooster, As I have stated I am in the pigeon almost everyday. I am not aware of any large scale operations taking bear hunters in the PRC. I think the MDNR should be more concerned with refining the bear managment areas, then eliminating the few guys guiding. As of this year the club country (turtle lake area) is hollering bear problems, but yet the hunters in red oak have to stay in the PRC to accuire permission or be on public. The pigeon can not supply most of red oaks harvest. If this managment area was split the problem with to many bear in the clubs, and a less than desireable population in the PRC could easily be handled. The clubs say to many bear but good luck getting permission to hunt. I feel the number of bear harvested is much more important then wether they were guided or unguided hunts. I would guess a small percent of the current kill in the lower was guided. The PRC has already suffered a huge loss in deer, because way way to many of the DNRs 452 doe tags were brought, and filled across the line. The guys that did this, and there are a bunch of them are as guilty as the DNR. All I am saying is if the clubs have a population problem then force them to correct it in the club. Last but not least I spend much more time in the woods then in a dictionary, so for those who are laughing at me I am sorry. I have more important things to do then to brush up on my spelling and grammer LOL.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Shep, thanks for posting. Your perspective is appreciated. Hope you will attend the PRC meeting and voice your concerns. Would appreciate hearing how the meeting goes.


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