# Why Does Michigan Suck?



## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

Some Links:

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/feature/huntf/beavertrapping04.htm

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=trapping.hearts

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/trap/

Now I direct you to Michigan

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10880---,00.html

What do we have here? Three states that have either stories or educational opportunities for young trappers....then you have the state of Michigan LAWS. No, "trapping is good"...nothing. It is how our entire states website is set up. Nothing personal about it, it's just the laws. Other States have links to their state trapping organization. Ours...well, I guess we mention them if you include allowing them to put their logo in the "snaring guide".

What is wrong with our state?


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

BTW...I dont really think Michigan sucks...I just dont get it. We set ourselves up for failure. We complain about lack of money, lack of interest, lack of tourism....but we do nothing to promote it. We dont ask Michigan sportsmen for their stories of family involvement to post on our website, we dont promote family involvement in other outdoor activities....we provide maps and a list of rules, "figure out the rest". 

I just dont understand.


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## tiller killer (Sep 10, 2006)

snowman11 said:


> BTW...I dont really think Michigan sucks...I just dont get it. We set ourselves up for failure. We complain about lack of money, lack of interest, lack of tourism....but we do nothing to promote it. We dont ask Michigan sportsmen for their stories of family involvement to post on our website, we dont promote family involvement in other outdoor activities....we provide maps and a list of rules, "figure out the rest".
> 
> I just dont understand.



i think your pushing the blame twards the wrong group, it is no fault but our own. young people begining to hunt look no where but there friends and family for guidance, if it were not for my family members taking me fishing when i was younger i probably wouldnt have been inclined to hunt or fish.


you want the number of sportsman in thsi state to increase.... 

Quit yer bitchin and take a kid fishin!!!


duke


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

The MDNR website could use a tune up.
ODNR recently also added a place to upload your own hunting/nature pics. I really like Ohio's site. User friendly, info is right where you expect it.... Finding stuff on the MI site can be a pain sometimes.


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## tiller killer (Sep 10, 2006)

BradU20 said:


> Finding stuff on the MI site can be a pain sometimes.




Your definatly correct


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

Duke,

I really hope that your response was sarcastic in nature...if not, you are quite the ***hole. I asked why our state is so unsupportive of sportsmen....not why there are a declining number of sportsmen.

But let me state this, as of two months ago, I had no clue what trapping was all about. I became interested in it after reading a few things, mostly, the HSUS campaign to ban it...so I initially went to our state website to try to learn a little more. I read the only substantial statement on the website, the snaring guide...which was rather dry if you really want to learn about what trapping is all about. Then I found this forum. Then I found trapperman. Then I found the State of Alaska and read pulling hearts. Then I read words from the past from Charles Dobbins...I was a little more motivated to learn about trapping than your average Joe. Now I think I am in love and would like to learn more about it. 

So...what I ask is why our state website says nothing of the tradition of trapping...nothing of our state's history in trapping. the only thing we have is a 20 page snaring guide...which can honestly be somewhat disheartening to read as someone who knows nothing of the sport. If I had stopped after reading that only....I would probably be against trapping. Our states website does nothing to foster interest in ANY of the outdoor sports. Our state does nothing to try to interest average joe deerhunter who stops on to the web page and stumbles across trapping guidelines. 

So...yes, I am bitchin. And yes, I do take my nieces fishin...but asking sportsmen to take a kid fishin obviously isn't working to raise #'s...why is it so bad to ask why our State does nothing to foster interest?


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

look at what this state offers,where else can you go to do the things we have here.we have more opportunity to allmost any type of hunting fishing, or trapping that I care to do. on these forums you can find most anything. the state does one hell of a job imo.


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

gilgetter said:


> look at what this state offers,where else can you go to do the things we have here.we have more opportunity to allmost any type of hunting fishing, or trapping that I care to do. on these forums you can find most anything. the state does one hell of a job imo.


Gilgetter,

I suggest you read the message and follow the links. I am not by any means saying that we dont have the opportunity to do things in the state, I am stating that our State Government does nothing to foster interest....or even help begin to explain to the voting populace what the outdoor sports are all about.

What I am mostly interested in, is the voting populace. Where do they get a majority of their information? TV, followed by newspaper and websites. The State website is the only source that is even close to being unbiased...and the only thing they tell you about is the legality of killing animals. Is that what our sport is about?? If so, maybe the HSUS article that is in this forum is a little closer to the truth than I thought.


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

snowman followyour own advice. didnt the state just lower the age to hunt. didnt the state just put into place an apprentice program to bring in new hunters? wasnt michigan one of the first states with a hunter safety program? just because you cant point and click to what you think should be there is not the states fault, or is it.the voters in this state have passed acouple proposals that were pro hunting A and G I believe.they were well informed at that time. how did they get that information?


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## jharris (Jan 23, 2006)

Relax guys. No need to fight amongst ourselves. I am sure that a lot of groups would encourage us to squabble with each other. As far as I can see, we are all on the same side here. Please don't attack me as an outsider, I spent the first 21 years of my life in Michigan growing up and going to college.
Perhaps the MI site does need a little sprucing up. Whether it does not provide support for hunting and trapping intentionally or unintentionally is a different question. Perhaps the MDNR did not see a need to connect to the history and joy of our sports and saw the purpose of the site as more of a legal information area.
Do they have a response section available? Perhaps we should just let them know some of the things that we would like to see on the site. Take a look at the AK fish and game site and see what you think. It is very helpful in all fields from legality, to history, to links, to articles on how to effectively hunt and trap. There is even a section on how to "pull hearts" which some may find a little graphic if they are not of the trapping support group.
It would be nice to see some support for the sports that help to financially support the MDNR. To a certain extent though, it is our responsibility as adults to encourage and train our children. Some of us did not have adults in our lives that were sportsman (happy to say my Dad took me hunting and fishing as a kid), and that is where sites like this offer an excellent place for new outdoorspeople to learn and ask questions.
It is not an issue of one group dropping the ball, but an issue of us all working together to keep our outdoor heritage and culture alive.
God bless,
Jay


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## gotduksikness (Nov 22, 2005)

I am getting ready to start coyote hunting now that duck season is over. I just moved to a place out in the country that has plenty of coyotes. I have been using my duck carcasses to bait em in and have had plenty of yotes in the area. I am looking for someone who wants to buy the whole animal. I dont want to take the time to skin em and tan em etc. I just dont have the loot or the time as I am taxidermying my own ducks. Any way. If anyone knows of anyone. I will be willing to work with price. I am not looking to get rich. I just dont want to kill song dogs and throw away.


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

gotduksikness said:


> I am getting ready to start coyote hunting now that duck season is over. I just moved to a place out in the country that has plenty of coyotes. I have been using my duck carcasses to bait em in and have had plenty of yotes in the area. I am looking for someone who wants to buy the whole animal. I dont want to take the time to skin em and tan em etc. I just dont have the loot or the time as I am taxidermying my own ducks. Any way. If anyone knows of anyone. I will be willing to work with price. I am not looking to get rich. I just dont want to kill song dogs and throw away.


i believe that baiting coyotes with anything other than a furbearing animal, red squirrel or woodchuck is illegal.


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## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

You think Michigan sucks, try and trap in canada sometime !


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

gilgetter said:


> snowman follow your own advice. didnt the state just lower the age to hunt. didnt the state just put into place an apprentice program to bring in new hunters? wasnt michigan one of the first states with a hunter safety program? just because you cant point and click to what you think should be there is not the states fault, or is it.the voters in this state have passed acouple proposals that were pro hunting A and G I believe.they were well informed at that time. how did they get that information?


I dont know. I may be blowing this way out of proportion. All I know is that after Prop 3, I wanted to research it myself. When I hit the Alaska page I was just blown away by how it is presented to the public. A state with a hunting and trapping heritage that is PROUD OF IT. 

Michigan seems to be ashamed of it's history. Our state was founded by the fur trade....and we seem to hide from it. It's a one paragraph blurb in fourth grade Michigan History...maybe one question on a test. Never to be mentioned again. After all, we are the automotive state.

I believe that the proposals that you are talking about are D and G. D established bear hunting guidelines...this was before my voting time. I do not remember any advertisements either way on it. Was it attacked in the same way dove hunting was this year?

Proposal G gave control of game population management to the NRC. It was written like propsal 1...just sounded like it made sense, so I have no doubt that it passed. 

A lot has happened in ten years too though. In '96, we had A LOT of hunters in the state....we have a lot less now. I believe approximately 85% of what we had in '96. 

Again...I'm just really frustrated. The more and more I read, the more and more I feel the media is just slamming us sportsmen up against the wall, beating us to a bloody pulp...and there is nothing that we seem to be able to do about it....other than keep trying. Again...frustration is mostly with the media and the spin that is put on everything.


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## deathfromabove (Mar 2, 2005)

snowman11 said:


> BTW...I dont really think Michigan sucks...I just dont get it. We set ourselves up for failure. We complain about lack of money, lack of interest, lack of tourism....but we do nothing to promote it. We dont ask Michigan sportsmen for their stories of family involvement to post on our website, we dont promote family involvement in other outdoor activities....we provide maps and a list of rules, "figure out the rest".
> 
> I just dont understand.


I agree 100%.....

No personality, No stories, No pictures, and worst of all No promotion...


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## tiller killer (Sep 10, 2006)

snowman11 said:


> Duke,
> 
> I really hope that your response was sarcastic in nature...if not, you are quite the ***hole. I asked why our state is so unsupportive of sportsmen....not why there are a declining number of sportsmen.



the "quit yer bitchin and take a kid fishin" was not directed twards you directly but to anyone who bitches about the decline of sportsman....

dont be offended by what i said, just laugh at it and remeber to state the bold words next time you hear someone pissing and moaning about the decline of sportsman in mi....



duke


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

I would like to apologize to anyone I may have personally offended today. I had a really bad day at work and should have known better than to post on a forum 

Tiller...no prob. I fully understand where you are coming from. The nieces I have, have parents that simply dont want to take them out. My wife and I end up taking them for a few weekends a year to get them out fishing...it's better than nothing.

What kills me is that they live in Kalkaska...opportunity abounds. I would give my front teeth to live north of 46. (you can still chew meat without your front teeth right? )


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## tiller killer (Sep 10, 2006)

snowman11 said:


> I would like to apologize to anyone I may have personally offended today. I had a really bad day at work and should have known better than to post on a forum
> 
> Tiller...no prob. I fully understand where you are coming from. The nieces I have, have parents that simply dont want to take them out. My wife and I end up taking them for a few weekends a year to get them out fishing...it's better than nothing.
> 
> What kills me is that they live in Kalkaska...opportunity abounds. I would give my front teeth to live north of 46. (you can still chew meat without your front teeth right? )



i am about 10 min south of 46 off of 52, the titabawasse is a KILLER smallie spot in the summer and the cass and bad river are right on its ass.

how far south of 46 are you? pm me if your not too far.



duke


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

its easy not to see the forest for the trees.I was in the military for awhile and got to see alot of the world.there is no place like this.any where. if your not happy with the way things are, work to change them.there is alot that needs work. snowman is right about the fact that our image needs alot of work the beat time to start is now.


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

tiller killer said:


> i am about 10 min south of 46 off of 52, the titabawasse is a KILLER smallie spot in the summer and the cass and bad river are right on its ass.
> 
> how far south of 46 are you? pm me if your not too far.
> 
> ...


LOL...well, about two hours. I am 30 minutes northeast from cabella's  

I spend a lot of time in the summer around Oscoda though, my family has a cottage up there. Not getting up enough this winter, been too much going on.

46 is just my "up north" line. That is, once I cross it, I am far enough up north to be happy...though I prefer to avoid Saginaw and Bay City. My wife (teacher) and I plan to move, as soon as she can find a job up there...but with the state of teaching in Michigan, it may be a while. We dont want to move in to a weak district where she may be laid off a month after getting hired.


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## jharris (Jan 23, 2006)

This is not exactly on topic, but I am a teacher as well as my wife. I was certified to teach in Michigan but moved right after college. If you want to move way north... AK alwasy has positions open in the different districts. There are a couple of job fairs every year in a couple different places in the country. I went to Hope College and during a spring break came up to Anchorage with the idea that I was not leaving without a signed contract... 6 years later and I am still teaching up in the "bush." Check out the BSSD site... bssd.org.


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## tiller killer (Sep 10, 2006)

snowman11 said:


> LOL...well, about two hours. I am 30 minutes northeast from cabella's
> 
> I spend a lot of time in the summer around Oscoda though, my family has a cottage up there. Not getting up enough this winter, been too much going on.
> 
> 46 is just my "up north" line. That is, once I cross it, I am far enough up north to be happy...though I prefer to avoid Saginaw and Bay City. My wife (teacher) and I plan to move, as soon as she can find a job up there...but with the state of teaching in Michigan, it may be a while. We dont want to move in to a weak district where she may be laid off a month after getting hired.



AVOID HEMLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!! it seems homey and inviting when you enter but once your in its hell (school wise)

swanvalley highschool is great, thats where i went, i knew all of the teachers by first name by my senior year and there all great pple...

duke


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

jharris said:


> This is not exactly on topic, but I am a teacher as well as my wife. I was certified to teach in Michigan but moved right after college. If you want to move way north... AK alwasy has positions open in the different districts. There are a couple of job fairs every year in a couple different places in the country. I went to Hope College and during a spring break came up to Anchorage with the idea that I was not leaving without a signed contract... 6 years later and I am still teaching up in the "bush." Check out the BSSD site... bssd.org.


Nope...Alaska never has any teacher openings. Never...dont care what you say.

On a different note, how is the pay up there?

WOW...your pay scale is a lot higher than I expected. I understand living expenses are also higher, but I didn't expect that at ALL. 
What is your average...well...residency? How many years does the average out of state teacher last before they go home? I imagine it's a lot like the northern districts here...if they make it more than 4 years, they are there to stay!)
lol

(I could never talk my wife in to it!)


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## jharris (Jan 23, 2006)

I can only speak for the BSSD as that is the only school district that I have ever worked for. Pay is pretty good and gets better with each year... especially when you throw the longevity bonus in after three years ($3000 after three years... I think it goes to $7000 after five). The BSSD made it one of their goals to retain teachers as some of the districts up here have some crazy turnover rates. The number of new teachers each year has gone down considerably since I first came in six years ago. A lot of the people I came in with have since gone, but there are a ton more that have been staying each year. Besides the longevity, they have treated me pretty well. After getting married, they helped me get another position on the mainland (I lived on St. Lawrence Island for 2 years) for me and my wife.
I won't blow any steam up your rear, it can be tough at times. You get the same kind of politics in teaching anywhere and small rural village life off of the road is not for everyone. My wife talks about moving every once in a while to the road system and she was born only about 40 miles south of us in another village.
Living expenses... food is more expensive, but we don't buy meat (Western Arctic Caribou Herd) and never buy fish. Gas... you think Michigan is expensive? However, I am not as depedent upon gas as if I still lived down there. Only put it in my four-wheeler and snow machine. Housing is provided by the district and comes directly from your check. My wife and I are both teachers and so we pay more than someone that is married whose wife does not teach... I don't understand that math either, but I am an English teacher after all. It ends up costing us around $1000 a month with all utilities included.
Perks: best hunting, fishing, and trapping I have ever had in my life. no crowds. amazing retirement after 25 years, great health plan, know everyone I work with... know everyone in the village, can talk fishing with the superintendent and trapping with my principal while ice fishing with him.
sorry, long winded and not everyone is probably going to want to read this on this section... my apolgies and all chastisement understandable.


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

long winded is good...and interesting as heck.

I spent a while reading last night...unfortunately, I did not know it was even an option. Your rent doesn't sound as bad as I was expecting (not if heat is included in those "utilities"). I spent a while reading the ATP website...and everyone just said "district dependant". There was a teacher, I think it was David Miller, that kept a blog. He was in, I think, Tunt?....I dont think I could handle the tundra. It's looks almost like living on an island. I assume your residents are mostly natives.....I dont mean this to sound the wrong way, but are they friendly? That is, are you treated as a complete outsider, or are you easily accepted as a member of the community? 

How do you deal with health issues? Does your village actually have a doctor, or health aides? 

The real question comes to living expenses...and I am sure it varies. You aren't spending money on movies, eating out, etc....but how bad does your food bill kill you? I know you said you aren't really buying meat, but from what I've seen and read, something as simple as a 2oz bottle of oregano, costing 1.99 here, costs you 2-3 times as much there. Do you buy from a local grocer? Or buy elsewhere and ship it in via parcel post? I'm really just confused as to the actual living expenses.....do you feel that they end up costing you MORE, or does it end up costing you LESS because you are closer to a sustinence style living?


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## jharris (Jan 23, 2006)

ATP is a good resource. That is who I went through when I came up for the job fair.
Alaska is a very large state and full of many different cultures. The village that I live in is composed of mostly Native people. They are Inupiak Eskimo. The village that I first taught in was Siberian Yupik Eskimo. Down south is mostly Indian (Haida, Athabascan, etc.). Then, there are different village cultures. Some are really open to outsiders and accepting and others are a little rougher. Koyuk, where I live, has been very welcoming to us with people offering to take me hunting and fishing when I first moved here. This is me coming from the outside (Michigan) and being about as white colored as they come. Of course, there are individuals in the village that aren't as welcoming, but you get that in any community in AK or outside.
I have lived in a village that was all tundra and I now live in a village that has tundra and trees... I prefer the mix over 100% tundra. It all depends on where you go.
As for food... we buy as little as possible in that department from the local Native Store. We get our food through a shopping service based in Fairbanks that cuts us a pretty good deal and is quite a savings over local prices. We also shop whenever we go into Anchorage and stock our freezer up with things like bacon, chicken, cheese, butter, things we can't hunt or gather. So, Fairbanks and Anchorage are slightly more expensive than the main 48, but not too bad. We have managed to pay off all of our student loans... mine after five years at Hope... ouch. We don't owe the bank anything right now and live pretty comfortably (Honda, Skidoo for the village, used truck parked in Anchorage).
Health issues can be interesting. We don't have a doctor right in village though we do have a clinic with good health aides... some villages have full time doctors. If there is a serious accident or emergency requiring a doctor, people get medivaced via plane to Nome and Anchorage where they have good hospitals. The dentist makes his rounds twice a year and is always available in Unalakleet or Nome which are just short flights away. Our insurance allows for one or two round trips a year for medical appointments.
Medical service for pets is available in Nome and once a year in village when the medical vets make their rounds. I just give all my yearly shots myself.
Like anyplace else, you adapt. My wife and I take dates to the local video store once in a while or go for romantic drives out into the hills. We order Christmas presents at least three weeks early and eat predominantly canned vegies as side dishes, but we like it. We take each year as it comes and make a decision about staying or going with each new yearly contract. Some days I want to bolt other days I feel I will be buried here. Probably would be that way if I still lived in Alpena.
Now, this is one person's experience with one district. There will be varying stories from different people. If you are curious about it, you may get a hold of Jim Hickerson with the BSSD. He has a lot of years in. You will see his e-mail on the district site. He is an assistant superintendent and a good guy. He is also the man that does the hiring of teachers. His addiction is fishing if you want an in.


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