# Autumn Olive no longer available?



## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

Autumn olive has been touted as an excellent source of cover and food for many animals, but it's not availible in the conservation district tree catalog.

Is there another place I can find this stuff?


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

Letmgro,

It's probably been removed from the catalog because it's a horribly invasive species that just takes over and crowds out and kills off the native plants.


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

Here's a little more info on Autumn Olive.

http://www.cheboygannews.com/articles/2005/01/12/news/mackinaw/news6.prt


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

i order mine from coldstream.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Most conservation districts don't carry it, mine included. 

I recommend it. In the area of my farm, it is not invasive; there are many species that are far more invasive and troublesome than autumn olive.


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Check with me in the spring. I'll be having autumn olive for sale with sizes from 6" to 30".


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

I don't know how easy it is to transplant mature bushes but I'm going to be clearing some of it this spring, to put in a food plot, and your welcome to it for free. Located in Leelanau County. Most of the bushes are 6' or so. PM me if interested.

_________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

jpollman said:


> It's probably been removed from the catalog because it's a horribly invasive species that just takes over and crowds out and kills off the native plants.


I would put that statement under the heading of "country legend". AO is a very valuable species in most settings, providing both food and cover for many species of wildlife.


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

jpollman,

A very interesting article, and I'm glad to hear both sides of the story as well.

Is there something else besides AO that could be used, that would be just as effective or better?


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

Russian olive is not reported to be as invasive as autumn olive.


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## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

wild bill,

I checked the Cold Stream Farms web site a couple of weeks ago and couldn't find AO. Are you sure they still carry it?


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

here you go deerslayer.

http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/productlist.asp?ID=3&SID=28


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

NATTY BUMPO said:


> I would put that statement under the heading of "country legend". AO is a very valuable species in most settings, providing both food and cover for many species of wildlife.


Then if it is a "country legend", why don't the soil conservation districts carry it anymore if it's such a valuable species ? Could it be that it once was thought of as a very valuable plant for the purpose but in time they found out that they were wrong ? Do a little research on Kudzu Vine in the south ! That was also supposed to be a wonderful answer to soil erosion along highways and such. I'm no expert on this subject but I would think that if it was such a valuable species, the SCD's would still be carrying it.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

When attitudes began changing about exotic species ten years ago or so, AO was blacklisted, along with a large variety of other very beneficial wildlife shrubs and trees, including Siberian crabapples, Amur maple, Russian olive, Japanese barberry, and Nanking cherry, all of which were used prolifically to that point by soil erosion districts all over the country. 

In some areas, autumn olive can be a real problem, in others, no matter how much it spreads, it's a godsend for the wildlife, like here in my part of the world in Antrim County-autumn olive berries provide wild turkeys, ruffed grouse, and migratory songbirds a source of food long after everything else up here is gone. I have photos of a flock of wild turkeys feeding on the berries in mid-January up here, probably the only thing that kept them alive until we were able to get them on feeders. Deer will browse on the buds and shoots all winter, I've had to wrap my autumn olives to protect them from the deer, rabbits and mice when they were young plants. 

Autumn olive spreads up here, but like everything else, it's much slower growing here than it is further south, and hasn't been the problem it's been down there. I consider autumn olive to be one of the greatest plants the soil districts ever came up with for norrthern Michigan, it's kept millions of wild turkeys, grouse, deer, and small mammals going over the long winters up here and provides cover to these same animals and birds. 

And it's not invincible, I've seen a lot of autumn olive over the years that was winter-killed, with the extreme cold and lack of snow this winter, that will happen to some of the shrubs out there this spring, too.

Autumn olive was still available from the soil districts up here last spring, I don't know about this year, as our soil district is so poor we may not even have a spring tree sale this year. But generally, if they can get it from the nurseries they deal with, most of which are in Mason, Lake, Newaygo and Oceana Counties, they'll offer it.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

JP,

Not trying to stir the pot here but your post contains information re AO directly counter to my experience in NW Lower. And that of many other members of this board who own and manage property for wildlife. We have lots of AO on our personal hunting property and on other private pieces that I have the privilege to hunt on. On our property, a previous owner planted a double hedgerow of AO. Countless species of songbirds are in there all fall long as well as the pats, turkeys, deer browsing as well, etc etc. I've watched that particular hedgerow for several years now and it hasn't spread "one inch". And neither have a few plants along our private subdivision road here in TC- not one inch. An article in MOOD last year said much the same.

Those are my specific, on the ground observations. IME, AO is _nothing like_ multiflora rose, purple loosestrife, etc - now _those_ are invasive species.

Remember, your milage may vary.  

Natty B.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

My observations indicate that the propensity of autumn olive to spread out of control is hightly site-specific. 

I've owned my Hillsdale farm for nearly 10 years. When I arrived on the scene, autumn olive was an occasional shrub; you could find it only if you really looked for it, and where it was found, it was only a shrub or two. Ten years later, that's still the case. 

I've planted hundreds of them, and I'm still waiting for one to spread elsewhere. Not yet.

At the same time, there are other shrubs which are appear far more invasive than autumn olive, which easily invade old fields. Hawthorn and mf rose easily come to mind. When was the last time you heard anyone clamoring to ban hawthorn?


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## wecker20 (Mar 10, 2004)

But I've never planted it and it's growing all over the place. New bushes apear from out of nowhere it seems like. Here's an example. I built a rifle blind at ground level 4 years ago and the only trees were mature cherry and maple behind me. The next year I noticed 6 bushes growing out in front of my blind but they were small. The 3rd year I had to bend them over for shooting lanes. Didn't want to cut them cause they offered more cover and I don't have much tree, bush growth on an 80 acre pasture. This year they are about 8 ft tall. I trimmed them, they are still held down w/ stakes for shooting lanes, and there are now 15 bushes. Next year the rifle blind will be elevated to keep the AO gowing. It's showing up on the fence lines towards the road. Free screening!  I'll let it do it's thing until it takes over too many areas. Thats where my 3 bottom plow comes in handy. Don't get rid of them plows yet.


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## Ron Howard (Nov 10, 2003)

About 10 years ago I had pre ordered some trees from the Fenton/Livingston soil conservation tree sale and was reading the brochure about trees that are good cover for small game & deer. I found that Autumn Olive looked to be the best choice they had to offer. So I ordered 50 plants and some white pines and waited patiently for the day that they came in. 
At this time I lived on 5 acres in SW Livingston County that was an old sheep farm, that had over grown with brush and tall grass. I figured that the autumn olive would be great to increase the cover to keep the rabbits & deer around. 
Tree delivery day came and when I got back home I started planting the white pine as a wind break near the barns & road and saved the olive till last. I was figuring out where I should plant the olive and took a walk towards the back of the property which was already overgrown. I picked out a spot that looked good and started planting. I pulled the olive out of the container and seperated them and noticed that the little leaves on the plant looked very much like the brush that was allready growing in this field. Yep you guessed it. I had a whole field that autumn olive had infiltrated from the bordering state land. some of the brush was over 20 years old and it is the most terrible think to try and clear by hand. So be careful, it is very evasive and can grow very thick and has so very long needles.


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## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

Thanks wild bill, I was looking for "Autum" Olive on the main menu instead of just "Olive". Dopie me :lol:


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I've had real good luck transplanting AO in the 3-6' size. Just get as large a root-ball as possible and plant. Awesome plant for wildlife and I wonder if it get's more of a bad rap for displacing timber value trees, despite it's great value to wildlife....maybe a timber production vs. wildlife restoration type thing.


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

NorthJeff said:


> Awesome plant for wildlife and I wonder if it get's more of a bad rap for displacing timber value trees, despite it's great value to wildlife....maybe a timber production vs. wildlife restoration type thing.


That's what I'm thinking. 

Board-feet vs. wildlife habitat.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I had a forester in the thumb area out to my property for possible cost-share programs and to give me a site assesment. He was very knowledgable and friendly but he told me that I could not get cost assistantance without planting the trees in rows and particular spacing. He said the state or conservation district was not really interested in wildlife restoration, but future boards per foot. His insight and planting advice per site area was very worthwhile though and I still have his plan in a file. I've always kept that statement in the back of my mind though and in makes lots of sense when hearing certain property plans by foresters even in my own area here. There is a differance between a property managed for wildlife and one managed for re-forestation. I personally think you can have a blend of both, but my choice is to not sacrifice any significant wildlife improvement for future boards per foot. We have enough sparsely managed and older growth public land timber in the area so it won't hurt if my little property is managed with a heavy emphasis on wildlife restoration.....won't hurt the future value to me either if and when I ever sell.


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## chevyjam2001 (Feb 14, 2002)

If you are looking for something else to plant but can't find what you are looking for from the CD try Musser Forests. They have a vast selection but they are of course more expensive than the CD. I am placing an order with them to fill the gaps of what I wasn't able to get from the CD. I also plan to order a few trees and shrubs from Gurney's Seed & Nursery catalog as well. Namely the persimmon, bush apricot, native plums, mulberry and pawpaws. Again more expensive than CD or Musser, but with a lifetime guarantee how can you go wrong. Especially with the persimmon and pawpaw those are the two I expect to have the most trouble with getting established. Now my only problem is to figure out how to plant 3,000 trees and shrubs come springtime  .


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## sagittarius (Jun 2, 2004)

Persimmon, bush apricot, native American plums, mulberry, pawpaws, apple trees, high bush cranberry, cherry, red oaks, white oaks, bur oaks, service berry, american elderberry, dogwoods, american hazelnut, wild grape, ect ect. 

With all the real native plants available, that provide deer abundant food and cover, .... why the he!! would anyone plant non-native invasive olive, honeysuckle, on purpose??


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

they won't grow, expecially in the notoriously poor soils and cold climate of northern Lower Michigan or the UP, where supplemented food plantings are needed most. 

OR 

the deer, rabbits, mice, etc., prefer to dine on them NOW instead of later. Tree shelters are only as useful as they are tall, can't tell you how many shrubs I've got out there that annually look like they've had machetes taken to them from the deer. 

And some of these, for instance, the highbush cranberry, are simply not preferred...I have tons of high bush cranberrry all over up here, for instance, just loaded with berries. Nothing eats it, until the berries are completely fermented, and sometimes, not even then. I see plenty of highbush cranberries rot every year, and the only time I have ever seen bushes hit hard was by returning flocks of cedar waxwings in March.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

sagittarius said:


> Persimmon, bush apricot, native American plums, mulberry, pawpaws, apple trees, high bush cranberry, cherry, red oaks, white oaks, bur oaks, service berry, american elderberry, dogwoods, american hazelnut, wild grape, ect ect.
> 
> With all the real native plants available, that provide deer abundant food and cover, .... why the he!! would anyone plant non-native invasive olive, honeysuckle, on purpose??


Not only do some native plants have a tough time when transplanted on poor soils, but they may have an even tougher time on superb soils, where they often cannot compete with cool season grasses and weeds that crowd them out. 

I've planted nannyberry, highbush cranberry, silky and gray dogwoods, and various oaks. Even though I've done some weed control, mortality has been very high. Tried Paw Paw twice, several seedlings, 2 ft. tube shelters, chemical weed control, mortality was 100%. 

The species I've planted that are BEST able to compete in heavy sod have been White Pine, Tamarack, and, of course, Autumn Olive.


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## mike hartges (Jun 9, 2003)

My experience with autumn olive dates back to the late 70's. I planted a couple hundred of them for my mother. They have spread about 25 yards into an abandoned horse pasture. When I told my mom I was planting autumn olive on my hunting property she said I shouldn't do that. She told me to look at how it spread from the road on her property(poor sandy soil) I asked my mom where she usually saw deer on her property. She said they were always bedding in the autumn olive thicket. I said that's exactly what I'm looking for so I have planted about 2000 of them on my Hillsdale county property. I usually get about 6 or 7 of them that pop up in areas where thay weren't planted each year. I just dig them up in the springtime and transplant them to a preferred area. The area where they sprout up each year is heavy loam with weeds or switchgrass planted. Another plus I just love about the autumn olive is the way they attract bucks in the fall. Lots of the AA gets rubbed and many scrapes are made beneath the branches. Another plus is the way the pheasants relate to this shrub all year long. Since AA grows so quickly, I've also surrounded some of my food plots with it so the deer feel comfortable using the plots during daylight hours. My only regret about planting autumn olive is that I didn't plant a big thicket covering a couple acres in size when I had the room. That's exactly what I'd do if I had to do it all over again. Once again, spreading has not been a problem and the few volunteers that show up each year are easily removed when they're young.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2005)

Our experts admit that they were wrong when they encouraged the planting of AO. I say that they are wrong in changing their mind. I will admit that AO expands it's territory but only where there is open space and isn't that what it was intended for? 

Deer tend to leave AO alone. If they are hitting it, it is an indication that there is nutritional stress. AO is a great insurance forage for deer during a tough winter. I have seen them leave it alone for years, then in a tough winter chomp on it. Isn't that what we want? You will see little AO in a mature forest. AO makes that perfect edge we keep talking about as being so important for deer. Isn't that what we want? I hear some say that it gets so thick one cannot walk through it. Isn't that what we want? Those berries hang on for a long time. Isn't that what we want? 

No, the experts were right yesterday in bringing in AO. They are wrong today. What we are experiencing is the same old story, "Everything goes in cycles". Today AO is taboo, Tomorrow it will be a Godsend. 

Where did you say I can get some AO seedlings?

These same so called environmental experts are also against the planting of birdsfoot trefoil and Kura clover because they are supposedly invasive. Hogwash, if there are plants that will save the Whitetail deer in the UP, it will be these two and up front carrying the load, with AO doing it's share. 

What's really invasive and unhealthy to our culture is the narrow look at these foreign plants. I say "let these foreigners save our butt".


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Ditto what Mike H had to say about buck use of AO. It is absolutely a preferred rubbing shrub in my area, and I've seen scrapes underneath their branches as well.


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## wruebs (Nov 18, 2003)

Does anyone have a web site or link to go to for information on autunm olive? One where you could get characteristics of AO and how to idenitfy it. Thanx.


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## mike hartges (Jun 9, 2003)

If you go to any search engine (Yahoo for example) and type in "autumn olive" you'll see plenty of info on this shrub.


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## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

Here you go wruebs:

http://www.noble.org/imagegallery/Woodhtml/AutumnOlive.html

http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=SAGI


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

wruebs,

Once you know what you are looking for it is probably one of the most common shrubs growing along fenerows along many state highways. From the mid to southern portion of MI on I-75, 23, to 69 from Lansing to Indianapolis, to the Ohio turnpike into I-80 in PA. Around Cleveland on 480 you can see Russian Olive planted in areas as well as 90. 

Another thing you can notice too....you can see it growing very well in planted fencerows along the highway, but you can see it hasn't taken over any adjoining crop fields, weed fields, or woods.

My personal opinion is that right now it is just a plant caught up in the "everything non-native is bad" phase and it's benifits to wildlife far outweigh any negatives.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Ed Spin04 said:


> Our experts admit that they were wrong when they encouraged the planting of AO. I say that they are wrong in changing their mind. I will admit that AO expands it's territory but only where there is open space and isn't that what it was intended for?
> 
> Deer tend to leave AO alone. If they are hitting it, it is an indication that there is nutritional stress. AO is a great insurance forage for deer during a tough winter. I have seen them leave it alone for years, then in a tough winter chomp on it. Isn't that what we want? You will see little AO in a mature forest. AO makes that perfect edge we keep talking about as being so important for deer. Isn't that what we want? I hear some say that it gets so thick one cannot walk through it. Isn't that what we want? Those berries hang on for a long time. Isn't that what we want?
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly on my experience with Autumn Olive. I have excellent farm land with rich topsoil. The county SCS' around here also quit offering it. But I planted well over 1000 of them about 13 years ago, and yes, they spread in my soil type pretty quickly. But as many have said, the pheasant, turkeys, deer and rabbits love the stuff. Not to mention the songbirds....if I walk the hedgerow this time of year there are literally thousands of songbirds in the AO. It did for me exactly what I wanted it to do...create habitat, cover, and food.


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