# what should i do?



## Flag Up (Feb 15, 2009)

Well done, your hunch was right. You snuffed out the rat.



thunder river outfitters said:


> anyone want a cheap hunt, less the deposit?
> 
> dan


I would love to hunt with ya. Except, like the boyfriend I don't have a licence either.


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## UplandHntr (May 10, 2010)

My sons first big game hunt is next week, yes bear hunt. He's only bird hunted a few times with me.

I wonder if our guy that's doing the baiting is thinking the same thing? I dont recall there being a step up system in place? squirrel, fox, pig, deer and then bear?

Is it your policy to have a guide present or not? If so, then there's your answer. If not, well...........


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## hawkeye642 (Jul 27, 2010)

Great advice! Remember to listen to your gut! You know better than anyone on here what is going on. Sometimes doing the right thing may also come with some negative effects, but you will know you did the right thing!

Confront the customer! If you don't like what you here and he ends up hunting with you and you still think he may pull the trigger. Contact the DNR and have the blind checked that morning. Not only will you still have a customer, you will have gained a better reputation with the DNR and possibly stop a violator! If you are wrong about the guy being the hunter than nothing happens and things go on!


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

UplandHntr said:


> My sons first big game hunt is next week, yes bear hunt. He's only bird hunted a few times with me.
> 
> I wonder if our guy that's doing the baiting is thinking the same thing? I dont recall there being a step up system in place? squirrel, fox, pig, deer and then bear?
> 
> Is it your policy to have a guide present or not? If so, then there's your answer. If not, well...........


For a "kid or any first time hunter",,,, hunting a bear on their first hunt, is an extreme exception, not the norm.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

I would contact other guides in your unit as well and let them know..


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## Mitchell Ulrich (Sep 10, 2007)

As long as your talking about honor and doing the right thing. If you sell that opening to another person, then you should refund his deposit and wash your hands of all responsibility.

Don't forget, it was YOUR actions that led to his cancellation. I believe the legal term is "unjust compensation". 

Just my take on things.

Mitch


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## thunder river outfitters (Aug 21, 2007)

Mitchell Ulrich said:


> As long as your talking about honor and doing the right thing. If you sell that opening to another person, then you should refund his deposit and wash your hands of all responsibility.
> 
> Don't forget, it was YOUR actions that led to his cancellation. I believe the legal term is "unjust compensation".
> 
> ...


mitch, your right....i have thought about that. i will give his deposit back if i can/able to fill this hunt. but by now most people have already started to bait thier own stands or have already found an outfitter/guide. so if i can i will. no doubt about it. 

dan


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## UplandHntr (May 10, 2010)

sorry, I'm just trying to understand this

you would consider not giving his deposit back, even though you're the one who cancelled him when as of right now he's done nothing wrong other than spark your spidey senses into thinking he might?


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## Mitchell Ulrich (Sep 10, 2007)

Don't worry upland', he's on it. Plus he's doing the right thing, which we all know, isn't always easy.


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## danforth (Apr 11, 2010)

Uplandhntr, 
slow down if you read the reply from the outfitter it reads to me the party canceled when they where confronted and held to the high road which required them to do the right thing here, especily if they had nothing to hide, you seem to want to point a finger at the outfitter. Read what the outfitter said in Red.

Quote from the outfitter.
(((its all over, let the bashing commence...lol. i finally had a chance to speak with her this morning, i told her since she was new to hunting, that it is my policy that i will go with her, she said with a little hesitation "that would be fine". after hanging up the phone with her, he called back and asked why i need to be there? i told him its our policy and thats final, he was more then welcome to come and sit with us in the blind.. he began to drop the F-BOMB on me. calling me every name in the book. telling me he was going to write letters to some outdoor publications about my service. i kept asking why he is getting so upset but all i got was the f-bomb...lol. so he said he would find another outfitter to hunt with and asked for his deposit back. well in my contract it does state that the deposit is non-refundale on the customers part. we never cancelled this hunt- they cancelled it. i figured since he is going to bash me, all the time and money into baiting. i should get something out of it? or am i being to greedy? i did invite him to sit with us, this just tells me my gut feeling was right.)))


Keep up the good work. I agree with Hawkeye642. Give the Dnr a call and let them deal with it you stay out of it from that point on, its now between them and the law not you. Then he cant come back on you. Also for your own peace of mind if you rebook the hunt give the guy back his money, not that he deserves it, its those kind of guys that give hunters a bad name.


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## Wildwood_Deckers (Sep 9, 2005)

If he was going to be her guide, why call you....lol... I'd keep the deposit... the hunt was still offered by you....

Clyde


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## Sportdog (Oct 6, 2005)

Unless you told them in advance of them paying the deposit that a guide on site would or could be required, IMHO you have no legal right to keep the deposit money. In fact, I would think that he may have cause for legal action against you for putting stipulations on the hunt, AFTER you accepted the money. If you had a written contract stating that an on site guide may be required at your call, then you are in good shape. I have no doubt that you had reason to be suspicious, but you are not God and privy to a persons innermost thoughts and intentions. My grandson has limited hunting experience but I can see this type of scenerio in my future as the boy has a huge desire to hunt bear and I would not want a stranger in the bear blind with my grandson and myself. The hunters are required to obey all game laws. You don't convict someone of a crime before a crime has been committed. Just some thoughts on this matter.


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## wolverine301 (Dec 21, 2005)

Sportdog said:


> Unless you told them in advance of them paying the deposit that a guide on site would or could be required, IMHO you have no legal right to keep the deposit money. In fact, I would think that he may have cause for legal action against you for putting stipulations on the hunt, AFTER you accepted the money.


I agree with Sportdog. It sounds to me like you said it would be fine up front and changed your tune after accepting the deposit. I believe you did the right thing, but unless you have written terms that express the policy of a mandatory guide for a first time hunter you should refund his deposit. This may also mitigate further mud slinging on your behalf, although I wouldn't worry too much about this guy writing a letter without F-Bombs in it that would go straight in the trash at any reputable publication.


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## mustang67 (Mar 12, 2007)

I think some are missing a point here posting about kids who have never bear hunted before. In my opinion it is a completely different situation than what is going on. If neither him or her have ever bear hunted before why wouldnt he want the guide to sit with them? Odds of getting a bear would be better with the guide there, correct? The guide doesnt make the bear come in but can tell the people they need to hold still etc. With a kid whos grandfather bought him his first bear hunt The kid is already been hunting the grandfather is there to guide him thru it. How is the situation the same? I personally think dan is doing the right thing. If she was actually going to be the one to kill it why didnt she cancell the hunt herself? Why did the boyfriend call him back? This does seem fishy to me. People with kids shouldnt read to far into this. The guide involved is a very well known guide in the area and has a good reputation. I think he has just showed us he is top notch.


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## duncan (Feb 23, 2005)

I support the guide on this one.


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## Sportdog (Oct 6, 2005)

duncan said:


> I support the guide on this one.


I guess that I didn't know that we were voting on this. Let's put this issue into something that is easier for people who failed to read and understand my post which was the focal point of "Mustang 67". If you hire someone to provide a service for you, and after paying the down payment, he starts putting stipulations on that service that were never discussed before you paid the money, you would be upset and would want your money back if you did not agree to the stipulations. In other words, the guide started changing the contract AFTER the down payment had been made! Again, I happen to agree that the guide had the situation pegged and he should have returned the down payment money and told the guy what he thought was going on and he did not want to be a part of it. No problem there for me but even at that point I'm not sure that he still isn't required to honor the contract because it is only conjecture, albeit an educated one, that an game law was going to be broken. To me the issue is a simple one of a contract that the guide wanted to change AFTER ACCEPTING MONEY. As far as my situation with my grandson I only brought that up to point out that I would not want a guide sitting there with us. I'll be the one that will police our hunt. If I want the guide, great. If not, well it's my hunt and I'm not paying someone to make sure that I don't break any hunting regulations. I can read. Case closed. I'm surprised that others would think that it's OK to keep down payment money AFTER adding stipulations that may not be acceptable to the person contracting the service.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Sportdog said:


> To me the issue is a simple one of a contract that the guide wanted to change AFTER ACCEPTING MONEY. As far as my situation with my grandson I only brought that up to point out that I would not want a guide sitting there with us. I'll be the one that will police our hunt. If I want the guide, great. If not, well it's my hunt and I'm not paying someone to make sure that I don't break any hunting regulations. I can read. Case closed. I'm surprised that others would think that it's OK to keep down payment money AFTER adding stipulations that may not be acceptable to the person contracting the service.


I agree, There is nothing but a hunch. And as far as requiring a guide to sit with the hunter......That is rediculous. We have guided many bear hunters and NEVER, not once has somebody wanted a sitter. Every additional person on stand will have a negative effect on the hunt. Bear hunting is not rocket science anyone with any basic knowlege of hunting can do it.........The judging a bear part is BS also.


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## ih772 (Jan 28, 2003)

I support the guide on this one. He sniffed out an unethical hunter, offered a hunt to make sure everything was kosher, the unethical hunter canceled the hunt, the guide keeps the deposit...not hard to understand at all.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

ih772 said:


> I support the guide on this one. He sniffed out an unethical hunter, offered a hunt to make sure everything was kosher, the unethical hunter canceled the hunt, the guide keeps the deposit...not hard to understand at all.


Or the hunter was innocent but her season was ruined, They guide gets sued and bad publicity, And the guides business suffers.


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## thunder river outfitters (Aug 21, 2007)

lol...man, you guys are killin me. why beat a dead horse. i gave the deposit back. even though i am already hearing the backlash of this idiot. if you think i wanted to keep the money because you think i needed it, your wrong. it wasnt about the money. i dont need it. anyone that knows me on here knows i dont need the money. i was more pissed of that this guy acted the way he did and tried to pull a fast one on me because he thought since i live in northern michigan that i was dumb and needed the money. this was the biggest factor with other ethical reasons..


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## thunder river outfitters (Aug 21, 2007)

sportdog, i had 2 hunters in this past weekend for the opener. i had a 44 year old lady who i went out with and she harvested her bear the first evening. she listened to everything i said and did everything i asked of her. the other was a retired gentleman that has bear hunter before and didnt want a guide (cedar_swamp) who was here giving me a hand.. although i did send a guide with him the first evening to make sure he would be ok since he was older and had a long walk. he didnt harvest a bear, my guide (cedar_swamp) did tell me he was chewing gum like it was going out of style. i asked the hunter not to on the 2nd day, this is when he asked to be by himself. the 3rd day he still didnt see anything, so i decided to go out and see what was up. inside the blinde there was gum and gum wrappers everywhere. hmhmhmhmhhmhm
this is why we have a guide go, to make sure your not contaminating the area. you might not think your doing something wrong, when in fact you might be. the guides know the ground better then you.


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## thunder river outfitters (Aug 21, 2007)

swampbuck said:


> i agree, there is nothing but a hunch. And as far as requiring a guide to sit with the hunter......that is rediculous. We have guided many bear hunters and never, not once has somebody wanted a sitter. Every additional person on stand will have a negative effect on the hunt. Bear hunting is not rocket science anyone with any basic knowlege of hunting can do it.........the judging a bear part is bs also.


from alot of post i see on m-s, there is alot of people that dont have the first clue about bear hunting. Ya your right, it isnt rocket science. But i will say this, hiring a reputable guide to do a bear hunt increases your chances 10 fold. I cant tell you how many emails i get from people that are doing it themselves and come up empty. But i do take the very little time i have and respond to them.
I spend alot of time and money to set up a bear hunt. Even though i returned his money, i am still hearing the backlash from this idiot. So keep telling me how wrong i am, i wasnt the one who was about to poach. But then again your the pro at it right?


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## Sportdog (Oct 6, 2005)

thunder river outfitters said:


> sportdog, i had 2 hunters in this past weekend for the opener. i had a 44 year old lady who i went out with and she harvested her bear the first evening. she listened to everything i said and did everything i asked of her. the other was a retired gentleman that has bear hunter before and didnt want a guide (cedar_swamp) who was here giving me a hand.. although i did send a guide with him the first evening to make sure he would be ok since he was older and had a long walk. he didnt harvest a bear, my guide (cedar_swamp) did tell me he was chewing gum like it was going out of style. i asked the hunter not to on the 2nd day, this is when he asked to be by himself. the 3rd day he still didnt see anything, so i decided to go out and see what was up. inside the blinde there was gum and gum wrappers everywhere. hmhmhmhmhhmhm
> this is why we have a guide go, to make sure your not contaminating the area. you might not think your doing something wrong, when in fact you might be. the guides know the ground better then you.


You sound like a very good guide and a person who cares about the law and making sure that your clients operate within it. You said that you had ethical reasons for not wanting to return the down payment which you rightfully ended up doing. Ethics would also come in to play when you choose to add or change your contract with a hunter after you accept payment. As I have stated previously, I believe that you had the guy pegged. In the future I would suggest that you be up front with possible customers and inform them that you do run an operation that is strictly law abiding and that you may, at YOUR discretion require a guide to sit with the client during his stay in the blind. Had you done that, this thread would have never been started by you to begin with and there would be no problems with your reputation being tarnished by some clown that intended to break game laws. You made a mistake, we all make mistakes. Learn from it in future guide/client relationships. I wish you the best and applaud you for your ethical hunting beliefs.


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