# Let the crossbow haters read and weep



## Old Shortstop (Jun 6, 2006)

I am going to get flamed for this and I don't really care. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and this is mine.

I don't view a crossbow as a bow and I don't think it belongs in our archery season except for those with legitimate medical issues that keep them from pulling an actual bow. Archery in general and bowhunting in particular is not supposed to be easy. They are difficult, short range activities that require dedication and practice to be proficient with the bow and skilled in woodsmanship necessary to get close. It is supposed to be challenging. A scope and trigger are gun parts not bow parts.

I hate direction we are heading with technology, baiting and a plethora of other shortcuts taking the place of dedication, practice, woodsmanship, conditioning and just good old hard work.

Flame away. I have been at this too long to give a crap.

D.P.


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## tgafish (Jan 19, 2001)

Old Shortstop said:


> I am going to get flamed for this and I don't really care. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and this is mine.
> 
> I don't view a crossbow as a bow and I don't think it belongs in our archery season except for those with legitimate medical issues that keep them from pulling an actual bow. Archery in general and bowhunting in particular is not supposed to be easy. They are difficult, short range activities that require dedication and practice to be proficient with the bow and skilled in woodsmanship necessary to get close. It is supposed to be challenging. A scope and trigger are gun parts not bow parts.
> 
> ...


Your opinion is noted. However it does nothing to forward any social movement in your direction. The original poster supplied a study putting forth evidence that crossbows provide a more accurate platform to help with a clean kill of deer. Improving recovery rates is good for deer hunting in numerous ways both social and scientific. Your opinion looks to limit opportunity. In addition it would limit the use of a weapon that according to this study improves the chances of what most in this forum would consider the best possible outcome from releasing an arrow at a deer. A recovered deer.


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## Old Shortstop (Jun 6, 2006)

I understand that I didn't directly answer the to the original post. My point is that a study of crossbow recovery means little to me as an archery topic. The recovery rates may be better with one, they should, it is more like a firearm. Bowhunting practiced as it should be at close range produces few wounds unless someone doesn't put in their time. I have no issue with people using them if they are not medically able, but I believe they need to be in firearms or muzzleloader season otherwise. I am not looking to make a social statement. I just think bowhunting should be bowhunting.

D.P.


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## U D (Aug 1, 2012)

Old Shortstop -"I don't view a crossbow as a bow and I don't think it belongs in our archery season except for those with legitimate medical issues that keep them from pulling an actual bow. Archery in general and bowhunting in particular is not supposed to be easy. They are difficult, short range activities that require dedication and practice to be proficient with the bow and skilled in woodsmanship necessary to get close. It is supposed to be challenging. A scope and trigger are gun parts not bow parts."

Yes your OPINION has been noted. Not very factual though. You should know crossbows were around long before firearms. In fact the stock of a long gun is the basic form of a stock adapted from a crossbow. Triggers were originally used on cross bows and adapted to firearms. Whether you agree or not, crossbows are bows, this is fact. Heck, it is even in the name. Also, assuming someone who uses a cross bow to not be as skilled in woodsmanship as someone who uses a vertcial bow is ridiculous. In fact your argument harkens back to those who thought compound bows were in some way cheating. The flight of the arrow/bolt is what dictates archery equipment. How you draw and release the arrow/bolt is purely semantics.


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## boomer_x7 (Dec 19, 2008)

tgafish said:


> Your opinion is noted. However it does nothing to forward any social movement in your direction. The original poster supplied a study putting forth evidence that crossbows provide a more accurate platform to help with a clean kill of deer. Improving recovery rates is good for deer hunting in numerous ways both social and scientific. *Your opinion looks to limit opportunity.* In addition it would limit the use of a weapon that according to this study improves the chances of what most in this forum would consider the best possible outcome from releasing an arrow at a deer. A recovered deer.


How far we going to take that statement. weapon specific seasons limits opportunity, "Seasons" limit opportunity, giving anyone a license besides me limits my opportunity... and so. Bow season is about having limited opportunity. If restricting the use of a weapon that improves deer recovery rates is bad, then why not allow firearms in bow season. Why limit hunters to firearms. An RPG is going to have a much better recovery rate.... Or why not give the hunters with accuracy issues opportunity, and let hem use full auto weapons, claymores and bouncing bettys....


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## boomer_x7 (Dec 19, 2008)

U D said:


> Old Shortstop -"I don't view a crossbow as a bow and I don't think it belongs in our archery season except for those with legitimate medical issues that keep them from pulling an actual bow. Archery in general and bowhunting in particular is not supposed to be easy. They are difficult, short range activities that require dedication and practice to be proficient with the bow and skilled in woodsmanship necessary to get close. It is supposed to be challenging. A scope and trigger are gun parts not bow parts."
> 
> Yes your OPINION has been noted. Not very factual though. You should know crossbows were around long before firearms. In fact the stock of a long gun is the basic form of a stock adapted from a crossbow. Triggers were originally used on cross bows and adapted to firearms. Whether you agree or not, crossbows are bows, this is fact. Heck, it is even in the name. Also, assuming someone who uses a cross bow to not be as skilled in woodsmanship as someone who uses a vertcial bow is ridiculous. In fact your argument harkens back to those who thought compound bows were in some way cheating.* The flight of the arrow/bolt is what dictates archery equipment.* How you draw and release the arrow/bolt is purely semantics.


So you have no problems wit me stuffing an arrow down a shotgun barrel for bow season?....


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## benster (Jul 31, 2006)

boomer_x7 said:


> So you have no problems wit me stuffing an arrow down a shotgun barrel for bow season?....


No not at all if they make it legal.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## U D (Aug 1, 2012)

Boomer,
The discussion pertains to Archery equipment. If you really consider stuffing an arrow or bolt down the barrel of a firearm as drawing a bow. I cannot relate to your comments.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

AndyP. said:


> I am the principle author of the Broadhead Study (not the QDMA article!). I presented the findings at the SEDSG meeting in Georgia, and am cruising the web to find discussions like this. I will try to answer any reasoned questions in the article's comment section on the QDMA website.
> 
> I would like to leave you with this information: This Study was not funded by the QDMA, any manufacturer, or even the Navy - it was entirely self-funded and there is no funding bias (other than my own, lol: I started this research expecting to prove that mechanical broadheads were a bad idea). QDMA (I am a member) wanted to write an article about the Study *after* they listened to the presentation.
> 
> ...


Analytical question.
How about creating 2 categorical variables. One - Shot distance; a) 20 yards or less, b) greater than 20 yards. Two - Recover; a) yes, b) no. Do a Chi-Square to see if there is a significant relationship between shot distance and recovery. You might want to do this over all, and than again stratified by crossbow versus compound. 
<----<<<


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## bigdoedown (May 29, 2009)

Not accurate in the real world of hunting... I hunt central michigan area, and have heard of and or been part of more wounded deer with crossbows than compounds. I know many, many that hunt... Not totally against the crossbows but it has put many more lazy and not so careful hunters in the woods... And all these people teaching the young kids the easy way, sort of makes me sick... My kids wont touch them, and I admire them for that.... The crossbow puts false confidence in many hunters minds, have heard it and seen it much...IMO...


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## Old Shortstop (Jun 6, 2006)

Gents,

I will bow out of this argument only out of respect for the original post. My opinion has taken in a direction that does not do the poster any good.

That being said, I will have agree to disagree on the crossbow belonging in archery season. You will never change my mind and I probably won't change yours. If I ever become medically unable to pull my bows, I may have to go that route, some friends have unfortunately had to do so, but not because they wanted to. They were good ethical hunters before they lost the ability to pull their bows and this weapon gives them a chance to stay in the woods. None of them would say it compares to their old bowhunting days.

D.P.


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## AndyP. (Feb 25, 2014)

Joe Archer said:


> Analytical question.
> How about creating 2 categorical variables. One - Shot distance; a) 20 yards or less, b) greater than 20 yards. Two - Recover; a) yes, b) no. Do a Chi-Square to see if there is a significant relationship between shot distance and recovery. You might want to do this over all, and than again stratified by crossbow versus compound.
> <----<<<


Joe
Excellent suggestion. I did this analysis last year, binning the shot distance data in 5 yard increments and looking at how shot distance correlated with recovery rate. (I think I used a student t-test to make comparisons, as shot distance is a continuous variable). As you would expect, the recovery rates does go down with increasing shot distance (duh? - but while a lot of this may be intuitive, it's better to have data and a formal analysis to support any conclusions). Because we've been logging shot distance data only since 2007, the amount of data we have is too small to make statistically significant comparisons. For example, the difference in the average shot distance taken between compound bow users (17.6 yds (sd 7.9)) and crossbow users (19.7 yds (sd 8.8)) is not significant. I chose to not include any distance data analysis in the research paper and will wait for more data (maybe another research paper -?). I did mention the distance data in the SEDSG presentation as a point of interest.

-Andy


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

AndyP. said:


> Joe
> Excellent suggestion. I did this analysis last year, binning the shot distance data in 5 yard increments and looking at how shot distance correlated with recovery rate. (I think I used a student t-test to make comparisons, as shot distance is a continuous variable). As you would expect, the recovery rates does go down with increasing shot distance (duh? - but while a lot of this may be intuitive, it's better to have data and a formal analysis to support any conclusions). Because we've been logging shot distance data only since 2007, the amount of data we have is too small to make statistically significant comparisons. For example, the difference in the average shot distance taken between compound bow users (17.6 yds (sd 7.9)) and crossbow users (19.7 yds (sd 8.8)) is not significant. I chose to not include any distance data analysis in the research paper and will wait for more data (maybe another research paper -?). I did mention the distance data in the SEDSG presentation as a point of interest.
> 
> 
> -Andy


Good stuff, AndyP.
I appreciate the study, for what it is.
Thanks you for the personal time you gave up in the acquisition of all the data.
I found it invaluable.
Hope to see more from the study in years to come.


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## tgafish (Jan 19, 2001)

boomer_x7 said:


> How far we going to take that statement. weapon specific seasons limits opportunity, "Seasons" limit opportunity, giving anyone a license besides me limits my opportunity... and so. Bow season is about having limited opportunity. If restricting the use of a weapon that improves deer recovery rates is bad, then why not allow firearms in bow season. Why limit hunters to firearms. An RPG is going to have a much better recovery rate.... Or why not give the hunters with accuracy issues opportunity, and let hem use full auto weapons, claymores and bouncing bettys....


I will take it as far as what makes social and scientific sense. At this time, none of your suggestions meet both criteria.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Seems that to be a more ethical hunter I should leave my compound at home and take a crossbow.


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

bigdoedown said:


> Not accurate in the real world of hunting... I hunt central michigan area, and have heard of and or been part of more wounded deer with crossbows than compounds. I know many, many that hunt... Not totally against the crossbows but it has put many more lazy and not so careful hunters in the woods... And all these people teaching the young kids the easy way, sort of makes me sick... My kids wont touch them, and I admire them for that.... The crossbow puts false confidence in many hunters minds, have heard it and seen it much...IMO...


The big problem with recovery rates with xbows is that people think now they can take 50-60 yard shots when they are not taking in all the variables that still exist no matter what type of bow they are using, using a Xbow is easier but the guy squeezing the trigger still needs to only take the shot if its a quality shot!


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## boomer_x7 (Dec 19, 2008)

U D said:


> Yes your OPINION has been noted. Not very factual though. You should know crossbows were around long before firearms. In fact the stock of a long gun is the basic form of a stock adapted from a crossbow. Triggers were originally used on cross bows and adapted to firearms. Whether you agree or not, crossbows are bows, this is fact. Heck, it is even in the name. Also, assuming someone who uses a cross bow to not be as skilled in woodsmanship as someone who uses a vertcial bow is ridiculous. In fact your argument harkens back to those who thought compound bows were in some way cheating. * The flight of the arrow/bolt is what dictates archery equipment. How you draw and release the arrow/bolt is purely semantics*.





U D said:


> Boomer,
> The discussion pertains to Archery equipment. If you really consider stuffing an arrow or bolt down the barrel of a firearm as drawing a bow. I cannot relate to your comments.


Make your mind up. I thought the flight of the arrow/bolt is what dictated archery equipment.....


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## boomer_x7 (Dec 19, 2008)

tgafish said:


> I will take it as far as what makes social and scientific sense. At this time, none of your suggestions meet both criteria.


So how do crossbows make social sense? Scientifically a firearm is easier to kill a deer with and socially more people firearm hunt. So again why not do away with bow season altogether socially and scientifically speaking....


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## Get'nLucky (Oct 30, 2011)

wintrrun said:


> I am not a hater of the crossbow.
> Although your motive is apparent, i'll thank you for sharing the study.
> Interesting tidbits fo sure.


X2
Neat read!


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## tgafish (Jan 19, 2001)

boomer_x7 said:


> So how do crossbows make social sense? Scientifically a firearm is easier to kill a deer with and socially more people firearm hunt. So again why not do away with bow season altogether socially and scientifically speaking....


There is a greater social desire to have an archery only season than not have one. There was a social desire to include crossbows into the archery season with a scientific reality that it has little statistical effect on the deer population goals. 

You can't win this discussion. Your argument is totally based on your emotions. You can keep trying to extend it to ridiculous extremes but it only shows the weakness of your argument.


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## boomer_x7 (Dec 19, 2008)

tgafish said:


> There is a greater social desire to have an archery only season than not have one. There was a social desire to include crossbows into the archery season with a scientific reality that it has little statistical effect on the deer population goals.
> 
> You can't win this discussion. Your argument is totally based on your emotions. You can keep trying to extend it to ridiculous extremes but it only shows the weakness of your argument.


Actually my argument is not be one or lost and is not based on my emotions. My point is, if people are going to stand on "excluding crossbows limits opportunity soap box", then there is a whole lotta other stuff that can fall into that reasoning. Socially and scientifically we dont need an archery season. Deer can be managed with firearms only and people would stil gun hunt. Also it wasnt a suggestion, just a fact. But if we are talking about "limiting others" over crossbows not being included in archery season then there could as easily be an argument that firearms not being included, during the current archery season limits people... And so on. Again, if we are going use "not limiting people" as an excuse or reasoning , then where do we stop using it. I bet i could find a social desire to open firearm season in october... Doesnt mean we should...


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

boomer_x7 said:


> Actually my argument is not be one or lost and is not based on my emotions. My point is, if people are going to stand on "excluding crossbows limits opportunity soap box", then there is a whole lotta other stuff that can fall into that reasoning. Socially and scientifically we dont need an archery season. Deer can be managed with firearms only and people would stil gun hunt. Also it wasnt a suggestion, just a fact. But if we are talking about "limiting others" over crossbows not being included in archery season then there could as easily be an argument that firearms not being included, during the current archery season limits people... And so on. Again, if we are going use "not limiting people" as an excuse or reasoning , then where do we stop using it. I bet i could find a social desire to open firearm season in october... Doesnt mean we should...




True we can find many social desires, on many subjects involving and overwhelming % of opposition or support.
In the end though it's the dnr / nrc's desire to sell as many tickets to the experience that is often overlooked.
They brought crossbows into the archery realm simply because it offered another vector for sustaining or increasing people choosing to purchase a license to hunt deer during archery season.


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