# Timber Sale Bids / Logging Companies



## veratas (Oct 6, 2010)

I am about to finalize the sale of the timber on my property. I hired a forester to manage the sale and we got the bids in yesterday. The forester that I hard is Metcalfe Forestry L.L.C. out of Grayling MI. I cant say enough good things about this company. They have been a pleasure to work with. We got two bids on the timber which are very close in price and I was curious if anyone on the forum has dealt with either logger. The first bid was from Joe Mayhew Logging and the second bid was from Welch Land and Timber. Any feed back on the companies would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

I would go look at a couple of sites that both of the companies have logged to see what they have left the property looking like. Also talk to the property owners to get their opinion.

Cash in hand before saws are started.


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## DanP (Mar 1, 2005)

multibeard said:


> I would go look at a couple of sites that both of the companies have logged to see what they have left the property looking like. Also talk to the property owners to get their opinion.
> 
> Cash in hand before saws are started.


Welch logged for us 3 years ago and I know have done work in the Hubbard Lake area with several property owners. I have heard no complaints and would have them work with us again.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

multibeard said:


> ............
> Cash in hand before saws are started.


What % would be normal ?

L & O


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Liver and Onions said:


> What % would be normal ?
> 
> L & O


100% or whatever your contract states.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Luv2hunteup said:


> 100% or whatever your contract states.


That's what I'm wondering about..........is getting 100% up front realistic ? I did not on my last cut. I'm not sure about the other cuts on the farm, I was not the one who negotiated the contracts. May have been told what was was paid up front, can't recall. 

L & O


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

You pay for all of your groceries when you leave the grocery store. Why would it be any different in this instance. Then you hope they pay for all the timber they take. Not saying against the loggers mentioned this thread as I have no knowledge of them but some have been known to bury some extra stumps


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## Crawfish (May 7, 2002)

Even if they paid up front, don't you still have the risk of cutting unmarked trees?


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Yes you do. That is a chance that you have to take.

NO easy way around it, that is the reason to get reverences from his previous customers.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Crawfish said:


> Even if they paid up front, don't you still have the risk of cutting unmarked trees?


Nothing in life is a sure thing. Whether selling Lump Sum and getting paid up front before the chainsaw starts or whether selling via Pay As Cut there are risks involved. IMO there are generally less risks of getting short changed by the logger when selling Lump Sum but loggers often bid higher for Pay As Cut sales. Nobody can be 100% sure what is under the bark so loggers are taking less risk of there being a lot of rot, especially on log sales, when a sale is Pay as Cut. Either way, the forester should have drawn up a contract with the landowner's best interests in mind and be out there regularly doing inspections to see that the contract specifications are met. If a logger does not follow the specs the forester can withhold all or part of the performance bond to help make things right. FM


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## B.Jarvinen (Jul 12, 2014)

multibeard said:


> Yes you do. That is a chance that you have to take.
> 
> NO easy way around it, that is the reason to get reverences from his previous customers.


Avoiding these risks and the ones Forest Meister mentions is the whole point of hiring a professional Consulting Forester - that is the way around it. A true consultant helps make sure the terms of the logging contract are followed, working on behalf of the land-owner - not the logger. Experienced Foresters know the tricks shady loggers can use to steal timber and they watch for them, if they need to. Most loggers are ethical businessmen too.

That is a bit different than selling timber via what is known as a "Timber Buyer", who may or may not be acting in the best interests of a land-owner; they could be working on behalf of the logger. There are good Buyers, but there are also some not-so-good ones.

I don't know Metcalfe Forestry but they are a member of the Association of Consulting Foresters (https://www.acf-foresters.org); anyone in that group is someone who acts ethically and professionally, for landowners. Random Timber Buyers are not members.

I always suggest to people that they work with an ACF member as a first choice. Timber is a mysterious commodity to sell; there is no Kelly Blue Book or real estate circular full of photos to consult. Professional consultants can help you maximize market value (knowing _when_ to sell what), and get you the outcome you want for your land, with no surprises after the harvest is complete and the loggers are long gone.


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## michiganmutt (Nov 30, 2012)

good thread and advice.


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## veratas (Oct 6, 2010)

As I stated before Metcalfe Forestry has been great to work with. They have gone through the property in detail and marked all trees to be cut three feet high and also on the stumps to make sure only the right trees are being harvested. Our contract has us getting 10% with the initial sale of the timber and the other 90% before the cutting actually starts. The company who buys the timber is allotted a two year window to cut the timber hence the two different payouts. If something happens in that two year span that the timber company cant cut the timber we keep the 10% and re-post the original contract to other buyers.

We almost went with just a timber buyer before I started doing a bit of research. The company we were going to use had many negative reviews most due to bouncing checks. I know the foresters percentage fee may seem like a lot but I cant recommend using one enough. 

I will try to keep this thread updated as things progress so others can learn through my experience. (Hopefully it is a good one ha ha.)


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

veratas said:


> As I stated before Metcalfe Forestry has been great to work with. They have gone through the property in detail and marked all trees to be cut three feet high and also on the stumps to make sure only the right trees are being harvested. Our contract has us getting 10% with the initial sale of the timber and the other 90% before the cutting actually starts. The company who buys the timber is allotted a two year window to cut the timber hence the two different payouts. If something happens in that two year span that the timber company cant cut the timber we keep the 10% and re-post the original contract to other buyers.
> 
> We almost went with just a timber buyer before I started doing a bit of research. The company we were going to use had many negative reviews most due to bouncing checks. I know the foresters percentage fee may seem like a lot but I cant recommend using one enough.
> 
> I will try to keep this thread updated as things progress so others can learn through my experience. (Hopefully it is a good one ha ha.)


Good for you! Metcalfe has a good reputation for covering the bases, so to speak. Odds are you will be pleased with the results. I commend you for doing your homework too. You mention foresters fees seeming like a lot but most folks do not realize everything they would be getting including the fact that bidding out a sale generally returns 25% to 35% more than what loggers offer on a direct sale.

It always amazed me how many people came into my office with tales of woe concerning lack of payment for timber and bounced checks. I recall one particular logger stayed in business for over 25 years in spite of the fact that it was a regular occurrence for me to hear of landowners not getting paid. This logger was likeable, smooth, and people just did not check him out. It is now about 10 years since he quite "buying" but I am still hearing of people who got swindled yet never bothered to take him to court for payment.

Through the years there were scores of people that passed through my door asking if we could do anything about their lack of full payment or even the outright theft of their timber. Without exception, none of the people who lost timber had retained the services of a professional. Some never gave it a thought, some thought the advice they got from their BIL was good enough, and some thought it was too costly. After the trees were gone and the pocketbook empty they all thought they erred. FM


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

I have some good stories about a logger in west Michigan and his reputation.

I do not dare post all the crap he pulled.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Please do. I had a guy walk past my "No Trespassing" signs, spray paint orange x's on the trees he wanted to cut including some in my lawn, and then knock on the door and try to strong arm my wife into getting permission to cut them for like $500 or something. 3 acres of mature oak and beech. I ended up spending a Saturday wire brushing and painting over all his X's, after meeting him and strongly advising him that 1. Being on my property and 2. Defacing my trees would not go over well, and as for being a tool to my wife, well, she'd take care of that herself and it would be unpleasant at best.


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## B.Jarvinen (Jul 12, 2014)

Were the initials B. M. ?


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## twodogsphil (Apr 16, 2002)

Our experience in using the services of a consulting forester revealed that it is not a guarantee for a positive outcome -- we hired one who in our mind seemed to be in bed with the logger. It was a 2-year contract, but the logger didn't show up until 2 weeks before it was to expire. Then he had only completed about a third of the cut when forced to quit because of heavy rain. Before he stopped activity, haul roads were torn up [loaded trucks were stuck and pulled out by dozers] leaving 3-foot deep ruts. Then he came back in January and did a rush job, leaving all kind of tops in the woods that were supposed to be chipped. [The forester's response was that it was a good thing - it would prevent erosion]. The landing area was left with a mess [5-foot high by 20 foot long pile of sawdust, hundreds of stub ends, piles of wood chips and major oil spill from [a blown hydraulic line]. and tops blocking an intermittent waterway/drainage as well as a skid road across the waterway which created an earth dam and subsequent flooding. When asked to address these issues, the forester side with the logger. For example, consider his response to this excerpt from our formal communication to him regarding post-logging issues: 

"Purchaser's failure to carryout contract provision [11]

*'[11]All roads, landings, recreational trails, and decking areas shall be cleared of debris and bladed smooth by the Purchaser at the conclusion of the operation. The condition of such areas must be maintained in an equal or better condition such as existed prior to logging operations.' "*

His response was as follows; * "In this case, I see no reason to require the loggers to return to the site with the extra expense of removing a line of sawdust and other very light debris that would not be practical to clean up with 30 ton logging machinery. I also do not reason that such equipment could improve the imperfections of the non-improved road surface that they used to access the landing. The specification you have mentioned below is placed in the contract to prevent serious problems, of which there are none on your site caused by the logging operations. 

In my opinion, the roads on your land need some improvement. These have needed improvement long before this timber sale began and I had mentioned this during the initial land inspection back in 2011. However, such improvement requires a bulldozer or other machine with a grading blade to flatten the grade of the road, the addition of 22A gravel as an elevated hard road bed material designed to allow for proper drainage and to improve traction and placing culverts where necessary to relieve drainage. None of these items appear to have been implemented on the access road and none of these items are associated with the specifications of a typical timber sale contract (your contract) and as such would constitute a different arrangement entirely. 

As another matter that is related to this sale, I have billed you for 49.5 hours (my original estimate of the attention this sale would require). Due to the splitting of the sale period because of inclement weather conditions during the late summer's heavy rain which made it impractical to log during the period, I have spent additional time than I had originally accounted for. 

Our meeting on 3/13 was completely on "my dime" as currently, I have 54.75 hours accounted for the sale. In order to make my service as valuable as I can, I generally don't bill for this extra time that occasionally happens due to items out of my control, in fact I don't normally mention it, but should this sale require my further attention of any kind, I will require a retainer to cover the additional time.

While I regret being in the position of a project in which the landowners do not find satisfactory upon completion, I cannot find any reason to require the loggers to return to the site or to hold the bond further as it is clear to me that the contract specifications have been met within reason.

The sale is closed and I am returning the performance bond back to XXXXXX".*


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

twodogsphil said:


> Our experience in using the services ..............
> *.............
> The sale is closed and I am returning the performance bond back to XXXXXX".*


Wow.

L & O


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

Wow! I have managed a couple large timber cuts for my employer, 700 +acres the first and 300 on the second. I used TR timber out of West Branch and had great results. It was paid weekly with receipts from mills or chip users. I was with crews daily as we needed to leave and protect specimen trees for use as design features for golf course layout. I do not see how a paid up front arrangement would work on large tracts with very different timber ranging from Poplar lowland to sterile Jackpine areas finishing with high quality oak and maple on ridges. I did lay out stages of work, saving the best timber for last. I also required all haul roads to be passable all times for my pickup in 4x4. I have much more work planned and will use the same company and method.


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