# USFS float permit system could use improvement



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2002)

The "float permits" are in use from May 15th to September 10th, on the PM. ALL watercraft must have them. From what we understood at the shop, there was supposed to be someone at the FS on the weekends to issue permits. Unfortunately I have not checked on that.

I pay $20.00 per day for the use of my Forest Service guide permit. Granted I added that to the $26,000 I had in expenses last year, plus the over $7,000 I paid in Federal and State taxes. Perhaps this "guide business" is not all that a lot of people think it is.....


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 21, 2001)

I forwarded a link to this thread to the main guy at the Baldwin office, hopefully he'll address it, but to be honest the whole system is under review already as I mentioned a thousand times when I told everyone about the river plan meetings and how to give your input. Hopefully those that are unhappy here gave their input during that time, otherwise it's kind of like complaining about an election and not voting!

_Steve_


----------



## kingfisher2 (Mar 22, 2001)

This has been an interesting read. I do not understand why/how the canoe liveries can be on the honor system and get most of these permits. I do understand the needs to regulate traffic on certain sections of water, but I do not understand why the canoe places get the majority of these permits.

Marc


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Let me make something perfectly clear. When I started this thread I did not mean to offend any guides whatsoever. I also am not against the permits, but rather the manner in which they are issued and picked up.


----------



## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

The solution is simple. Perhaps a petition drive started here would be a good idea. The main purpose of the float permits is to control canoe traffic during the Summer months. You don't need a float permit during the Spring, Fall or Winter. So, all they need to do is change it so anyone fishing does not need a permit. Most serious trout fishermen will be on the water long before the USFS office opens at 9am anyways. And in reality, there simply aren't enough fishermen in the Summer to cause a problem. There's 50 canoe's for each fishing craft. The float permits are very good at serving the purpose of controlling the canoe traffic. Otherwise, you'd have 2000 canoe's on a Summer Saturday from M-37 to Gleasons. But the rule does suck when fishermen are concerned. All it does is make lawbreakers out of legitimate sportsman who got to town after 5pm and wanted to fish the next morning before 9am. 99% of the guys that come in the store and didn't make the USFS office before it closed say "we'll take our chances". The rule is a good one overall, but it needs to be tweeked because it never took in the consideration of fishermen when written. IMHO


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

My sentiments exactly Bob.


----------



## d2upnorth (Mar 2, 2003)

As I understand it, the permit system was put in place in an attempt to resolve conficts between canoists and fishermen. Limiting the traffic seems reasonable but....The Forest Service doesn't have the resources to operate the system fairly. They allow the liveries a block of permits and take their word for how many they use and need to pay for. Nice system. 
The F.S. has also been allowing livery operators to clear the streams of downed trees....There are "guidelines" for this, but no rules. Guess what happens to potential fish cover and insect food?
This system need to be looked at again and adjusted for fairness.
d2Upnorth


----------



## russell (Dec 19, 2003)

As I have been reading these posts it is clear to me there is a great misunderstanding about the Forest Service permit systems which are in place. I'll try to explain.

A FREE watercraft permit is required for all floating equipment, launching or landing on National Forest System Lands, along the Pine and Pere Marquette Rivers. The permit season is from May 15 to Sept. 10. On the PM, this permit is required from M-37 to Indian Bridge. You can obtain a permit from the Forest Service office in Baldwin, Mon thru Sun, (7 days a weeK) between 8:00 am and 4:30 pm. For those of you who know in advance of your trip, you can reserve a permit by calling the office. We can mail you the tag or you can pick them up when you arrive. With some prewarning, we will place the tags in a outside location for you to pick up after hours. A reservation fee of $2.00/watercraft is required. 

The purpose of the permit system is to limit ALL watercraft during the permit season. There are also watercraft hours designed to give quiet time to land owners and walk-in fisherman. 

As to the questions and comments on fishing guide permits. All commercial operations using National Forest System Lands are required to have a special use permit from the Forest Service. These commercial users pay a fee for this use. This is not the same permit as the seasonal watercraft permits. Fishing guides who float, walk the banks, teach fishing classes on NFS lands, or who stop along the way of their float on NFS System Lands, must have this permit. Operating without a permit will result in Federal legal action. 

The purpose of the commercial special use permit is to insure that the American public is paid for the private commercial use of public resources.
The permit also requires operators to have insurance, some skill at public service, safe equipment, and in some cases limits the number of operators to insure the general public is not displaced.

While I am talking about permits, folks should also know about vehicle parking permits. Folks parking in most Forest Service access sites are required to display a vehicle parking pass. Day use passes can be purchased on site for $3.00. Weekly and annual passes are available from any Forest Service office or thru local vendors. Funds collected for the parking passes are returned to the local units for operation of the sites. 

If there are additonal questions on these topics, please contact my office. The number is 231-745-4631.

Les Russell
District Ranger


----------



## MPsteelheader (May 2, 2000)

riverman said:


> There really was no problems untill the internet came along. The salmon have been running the river for years and the last two weeks of August and Labor Day weekend were always special to those in the know or lucky enough to have property. I have always said that the river is to be enjoyed by all and about six years ago the problem of too much boat traffic started. Its a problem only on the weekends and Labor Day.


haha...

i think not...

since the pm lodge has been there its been a problem...

if you ask me i think your "secret spot" has been found and your just not happy about it...

just face the facts man...

the PM is a zoo now...

i have so i steer clear...

the last thing i want is 20 drift boats flowing over a hole im fishing so that every last fish in there is spooked 'til the next boat rolls through...

and one more thing i must ask if you live up there what do you do???

not too much in the way of employment if you ask me...

the pm brings in tourism...

a big portion of the economy in that part of the state...

just wondering...

cya on the river,

mark


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Les,

How many total permits are granted for the Pine and the PM on a daily basis.

How many permits do canoe liveries get on the Pine and how many permits do they get on the PM and why? 

Who makes the decisions and who can we contact if we disagree with the system?

How many guide permits are granted on the PM?

How much is the fine if I park in a National Forest Service lot and for whatever reason I dont have $3.00 or a yearly sticker?

Is there a fine if I am caught floating without a permit?

Is there any fine for being on the river before 10AM or after 6PM? Does anyone ever enforce these rules, or are you just asking them kindly to be off by 6M?

Does it make any sense to make the guides apply for daily permits? My thinking is there are many certified guides around the state who would like to take clients down the PM from time to time. Under the current system they are not allowed during certain times of the year because the guide permits are permanent.

Likewise has anyone considered making someone who wants to take a one day canoe trip go through the same procedures as a fishermen?

We live in the age of computers! Why cant I get up at 5AM and decide because conditions are right to fish a section of river where a permit is required get on my computer and see what is available? There have been times when I could not get a permit because none were available and find because of adverse weather conditions very few people used their permits.

As a fisherman, those adverse conditions are just what Im waiting for and might only get a chance once or twice a year to fish in them.

Do I need a permit if I put in and take out on private or non forestry land?

And finally, why are we paying more to park especially on the Pine and the services are reduced. For example closing down camping areas and no trash receptacles?

Thanks in advance for your help in answering these questions.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Les thanks for dropping in and sorting some things out. The next time I plan on floating a section where I need a permit and I know several days in advance I will call the office, pay to have one reserved and have you leave it out for me.


----------



## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I attended the last meeting for the river revision plan and was one of three private fisherman there. Is it possible that because the meeting was on a week night, in baldwin, in the middle of the winter, participation was skewed in favor of comercial interests. If a meeting were held in the metro area, on a weekend, would the make up change? I think so. I would be thrilled to be able to go at a minutes notice as ray suggested. On weekdays after 5:00 I rarely see another boat or canoe. Riverman does not live up here but is property owner and puts up with way more than most people could stand. His concern for the river and stewerdship are very respectable.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 21, 2001)

You didn't have to be at those meetings to give your input. I believe I personally left links, addresses and phone numbers to use for that purpose in many a report when I was trying to get more of the "general public" input. 

It was very clear in my reports and on the U.S.F.S site that the permits and every other aspect of the river management was at stake. So... Hopefully those that wanted some input in these issues used that info and gave their input, but, as I said before, if you didn't vote, don't complain about the election. 

Les, thanks for taking the time to state the facts. I knew you could explain it better than I.

_Steve_


----------



## russell (Dec 19, 2003)

In response to your questions:

1. Watercraft permits are only required from May 15 to Sept. 10. On the PM, there are a total of 240 water craft permits/day issued during the week, 650/day issued on Sat. 550/day issued on Sun/Holidays. The split between private and Liveries is 50/190 during the week, 130/530 on Sat, and 109/441 on Sun/Holidays.

On the Pine, the Forest gives out 60 permits/day during the week and 100 permits/day on weekends. I am not sure how many permits the Liveries have but if you call the Manistee office, they can look that up for you.

The watercraft permit allocation was established through the river management plans and is reviewed with each update. The last plan for the PM was completed in 1990 and is currently being updated. Watercraft allocations were based on use at the time the plans were finalized. 

2. There are 33 fishing guide boats under commercial special use permits from the Forest Service on the PM.

3. The fine for not paying for a parking pass is $50.00.

4. The fine for not having a watercraft permit is $50.00/per boat.

5. The fine for operating watercraft past 6:00 pm and before 9:00 am is $50.oo/person.

6. It does NOT make sense to have commercial guides apply for daily watercraft permits. Commercial operations are private businesses which make money from public resources. The need for a permit to operate this business on NFS Lands is based on Federal Law. For the same reasons you feel the canoe operations should be limited in their pemits. commercial fishing operations should also have limits. The public also expects other protections from business operaitons that are not provided in the day permit system. Point of fact, all commercial operations, canoe and fishing, are limited in their total boat allocations. 

7. All private watercraft operators regardless of the type of craft, operate under the same watercraft permit system. Canoes, driftboats, rafts, tubes, are all limited by the same permit. As such, fisherman and canoe users go through the same process to get their watercraft permits. 

8. Your suggestion to use a computer system to hand out permits is a good idea and one we have been looking into. Perhaps you will one day see such a system.

9. All watercraft entering, leaving, or stopping on National Forest System Lands must have a watercraft permit. If none of this is taking place on National Forest System Lands, you can avoid the permit requirement. 

10. As for paying more for parking and getting less service along the Pine, I'm not sure how to respond. The Pine is managed from the Cadallic/Manistee RD. However, I know of no developed camp sites which have been closed on the Pine. There has alway been camping restrictions within the river corridor with the exception of designated sites. This is the same on the PM. The current pack-in pack-out policy for trash is also nothing new. It responds to the fact that trash receptacles in our sites become the trash collection for local resident homeowners. We just can not pay for trash service for the local residents. They need to take care of this some other way. Perhaps with universal trash collection paid for by local taxes. 

11. Going back to your question on who makes the decision for actions on the PM or Pine. The District Ranger for the unit where the facilities are located, makes management decisions for the that unit. For the Baldwin and White Cloud Ranger District, I make the decisions. For the Cadillic and Manistee Ranger District, Jim Thompson makes the decisions. If you do not like something we do, we all have a boss and you can take your concern to the next higher level. In our case it is the Supervisor in Cadillac. 

I hope this information responds to you questions. If you would like to discuss this in greater detail, please feel free to call me at my office. The number is 231-754-4631.

Les


----------



## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Les, thanks for the input and for the bravery of walking into the hornets nest.  Glad to see you here. This is a great site.
A computer system where guys could get a permit and print something up at home, before they arrive in town seems like it would solve this problem. Now all you have to do is find the money to pay for it.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Les thanks again for checking in. A computerized system that would allow printing and paying of permits at home would be ideal. Use of bar codes like PA does on their fishing license would make sure they are authentic.


----------



## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Why not make them free if you pick them up in person on the day you float, but charge $5, instead of $2, for being able to do it at home and online? That would pay for the system over time and I think most guys would gladly pay $5, over just the Summer months, so that they wouldn't have to deal with the permit headache. My .02.


----------



## loomisfun (Sep 22, 2003)

Les, 

One of your bullet points states that there is a fine for oprating a watercraft between 6 p.m. and 9:00 a.m.

Does this apply to fishermen?


----------



## Dfishinfool (Aug 20, 2004)

Les,
I appreciate your repy here!! Would the time's apply if you launch from private land? I sure do see a lot of boats before 9:00 ?? THNX


----------



## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

loomisfun and Dfishinfool, I think the river hours were set for canoe traffic in mind, but the way it reads is all boats. Les can answer your questions if he likes, but lets not back him in a corner. I believe most folks on the river have no problem with early and late fishermen traffic as long as common sense is used. Rowing down the river with a flashlight is pretty common in spring and fall and I understand the need for some to be first or to grab the best. The problems come when someone sets up in a hole or run that happens to have a cabin next to it. When the whooping and hollering starts at day break and can continue all night, the property owners have a gripe. Yep, you have the right to be on the river fishing, but do you have the right to disturb everyone around you? It all comes down to respect and common sense. Riverman


----------



## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

> I am also not to fond of the practice of one guide fishing a hole and only giving it up to one of his colleagues.


As I understand it, there is a plan in place to re-name all of the good runs in the Big M after the guide service that usually has an army of drift boats camped out in them 24/7 from September through October! 

After that, I hear that you'll have to apply for a permit to fish said holes from the guide service...

At least they haven't re-named the entire river yet! 

All kidding aside, I don't mind that I have to share the river with a few guides, there's a few that are really decent guys and the legit ones do pay a pretty hefty fee for the permits, but what gets my goat is when some of them will park a boat in the hot holes and then shuttle clients down to the empty boat or they'll have some of their cronies squat on a hole from 3:00am until the guide shows up when ever. It's kinda funny when you launch at high bridge at 5:00am and there's already a boat parked in a popular spot with rods propped up but no one fishing, one hour later there's a guide boat parked there with some clients, the other boat is no where to be found, and the guide boat proceeds to stay anchored there for 8 hours. Same type of thing happens on the St. Joe and other rivers, so it's not exclusive to the NW streams. When you see that sort of thing, it definitly makes you think that the number of guides on a river needs to be regulated more, otherwise you have guide or guide services that start to think that the resource is there to serve them and to hell with the general public. Again, not at all the case with every guide out there, but as with everything, a few can send a not so positive image of the lot.

Phlyphisher...nice post!


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

This thread has gone off topic and should probably be split. I will attempt to do so later today.


----------



## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Why bother Steve. Another great thread with information coming right from the top has become yet again, fly vrs bait, guide bashing, and the logic of nokill. It's a trademark of this site. This thread was all about the United States Forest Service Policy on protecting one of the finest "Wild and Scenic Rivers" in the country. Thanks Les for taking time to explain some of the policy's. Riverman


----------



## kingfisher2 (Mar 22, 2001)

I have enjoyed reading through this thread and gaining more knowledge on the system. It's easy to identify the off-subject posts and just skip them...thanks to all that have typed pertinent information. 

Marc


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

It gets just as old writing about flies only and no kill as it does for some of you to read about it. I realize that these topics make some people feel uncomfortable, but I dont know why it should be singled out as some special topic.

Ask me if I am tired discussing swift boats. Start talking about politics and the discussion will find its way to the swift boat issue, it is inevitable probably just like it is when you start talking about rules on our rivers and I get involved. 

I could feel the tension when I started asking questions about the permits and how they get dispersed. Personally I learned a lot from this thread. To me the real value of this site and others like it is discussing controversial issues as well as just talking about our outdoor experiences.

From my perspective issues that deal with fairness get the most emotional responses. Is it fair to use a crossbow during bow season? Is it fair to make antler restrictions mandatory? Is it fair to bait deer? Is it fair to change some fishing rules for monetary or philosophical reasons? Is it fair to shoot doves? Is it fair to trap animals? Is it fair to hunt bears with dogs? Is it fair to think differently than I do?

So I digress again. My bad. Maybe if we dont talk about certain issues, they will just go away.


----------



## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Ray, what I was saying was that MDNR used to be called all the time about violating. Guys would call me from the river with violator ID's and license plate numbers and then I'd call MDNR. It got to the point where a couple CO's gave us their home phone numbers because there was so many calls. The problem was, there was so many of them that many violators were gone by the time the CO's got there. Plus, if they were in their drift boat, which many helped donate so they could have one, once they floated past a section, they couldn't row back upstream. But it didn't matter, because they had enough tickets to write as they floated. Last year there were some big busts that resulted from my call. The CO's personally called me back to thank me for the tip. The biggest one was actually a big group of Amish, yes Amish, that were snagging like the old days. I believe they had like 30 fish and the fines were going to be in the thousands. What I'm saying is that people giving me violating tips from the fly water is down like 90% since the rule change.
Also, I was under the assumption that when MDNR was having the meetings for the new regs, that they wanted input on the social aspects of the new "types". I think it was a 50/50 split on science and social. They were asking what fishermen wanted to see changed. Why else were they asking for hopefully thousands of fishermen to show up and many locations to share their opinions? And the people that went told them what they'd like to see changed. If it was to be only pure science debated, they would has only had biologists there. They wanted to get fishermen views and then work with those opinoins in the parameters of the known science. And I will agree that the vast majority of guys that did show up were fly fishermen. And as you know, of the people at BBT, not everyone here is a fly fisherman and nobody is "exclusive fly fisherman". I'm proud to proclaim that I'm a spinner fisherman. I won't ever be for more "fly only" water either. But I prefer to fish small gear on small trout streams. Salmon don't interest me at all and I really only fish steel in the Winter. I'm usually too busy to fish during any "run". And our name isn't Baldwin Fly shop, It's Baldwin BAIT and TACKLE. We only put up a banner saying "the fly shop at BBT" just so people would know that we do carry fly gear too. So if some feel that we're only looking out for the interests of fly fishermen, they couldn't be more wrong. We sell more bait than anyone in the area. Anyways, I respect Ray's opinion too. But since we've gone over this topic several times before, I'm going to opt to continue this conversation with you in the store. That is, only after we're done with our regular QDM debate! :lol:  
The one nice thing I've seen here is that this has been a pretty nice, adult debate. There's been no name calling that could have flared up. Threads like this could actually result in some type of change in the future. It's when threads boil over that nothing ever will get done.


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Bob,

You just want to get me in your shop because you know I will buy up all your crickets lol. I do think this was a very good discussion. It has taken many different paths, but the one thing that stands out in my mind is just how many violators are in our ranks. While there is renewed interest in this issue along with what the River Watch guys are doing, perhaps it is time the Ray Boehr take another look at my idea of the DNR providing a patch which among other things would indicate that you are a responsible, ethical sportsmen.

At the same time the message to potential violators is that by wearing this patch you wont tolerate illegal activities. Not in an active way, but in a passive way. It doesnt mean you will reach for your cell phone for every minor infraction you see, but you might if the infraction offends your sensibilities. In a way, much like a neighborhood watch.

At one point, Ray had over a 100 members willing to support the program and I think he had already taken it up the ladder in the DNR with some favorable feedback.


----------

