# Another State considering Trail Cam Ban



## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> IMO it's all about when u aren't there.
> 
> Imagine if I told my neighbor that I called off work because I got a pic of a giant buck at 3:30am then proceeded to kill this giant buck at 8:00am. Good chance he may see this as unfair, especially considering how people get when it comes to bucks


Guess i dont get the logic. Knowing the buck was there 4.5 hrs prior is no percieved advantage. Knowing where he is at the moment you are entering the field and what direction he is heading is. Not walking into a stand when you know the buck is currently in front of it could be an advantage. Knowing he was there 4hrs ago I wouldnt think twice about it.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

springIstrutfallIrut said:


> Why ? An instantly sent photo does not freeze that animal in place so you can go shoot it. Knowing what and where something is does not guarantee you are going to tag it. Please explain why having a pic of a big buck sent to my phone at midday then going to that property for an afternoon hunt is not fair chase. If you drive by a field and see deer in it then go hunt it is that different?


Real-time data is swaying your decision on where to hunt. Rather than just your set of eyes, you could have dozens giving you real time near instant info of where the deer are at. 

I am a cell cam user and understand they don't ensure a kill, but IMO it is taking away some of the aspect of fair Chase. Outside of one that I think could be easily stolen and I would want to get a pic of the thief, all my cams are on a 12 hour send.


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## springIstrutfallIrut (Mar 30, 2012)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> U just explained why some would not consider it fair chase, pic is sent, u then go hunt it, pretty simple


Yeah I guess it's truly an opinion thing not really whether it's right or wrong. I just don't consider having intel from a pic disqualifying a hunt from being fair chase, the chance of you getting a shot on a certain animal is still very low. The amount of equipment used once out there could all be considered to lower the fair chase meter in our modern hunting world. I can tell you after 2 years of using cell cams in southern MI that I've never seen any consistencies from deer walking in front of those cameras that would give me an advantage in any way shape or form to be unfair. They help me decide , along with many other factors, on which property I will hunt when having to choose from 4 different ones. If I ever get the feeling that those cams are giving me an unfair advantage I would either stop using them or use them in a different way.


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

it will be a day when it comes to michigan.
yes cell camera have had an effect on where and when I hunt. Have one stand very hot all day long, but with the cell camera telling me all the info. It is very hard stand for me to get Into. 
What the cam shows, I would have to go into the stand about midnight and sit for 24 hours.
to not push deer I can see away.
so yes it has change the chase of the game.
would I give up my camera. nope. Even as it has change some of the Christmas morning feel every time I went out before.

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## Acts 11:7 (Mar 28, 2007)

What’s next? Fish finders? Lol 🤦‍♂️


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## hatcheryman (Jan 23, 2013)

wildcoy73 said:


> it will be a day when it comes to michigan.
> yes cell camera have had an effect on where and when I hunt. Have one stand very hot all day long, but with the cell camera telling me all the info. It is very hard stand for me to get Into.
> What the cam shows, I would have to go into the stand about midnight and sit for 24 hours.
> to not push deer I can see away.
> ...





Acts 11:7 said:


> What’s next? Fish finders? Lol 🤦‍♂️
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


you can use cell cams in New Mexico but not while you are hunting.


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## TrailMarker (Dec 8, 2012)

Illegal everywhere or can I still post them to catch my trespassing neighbors and for varmint hunting


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## TrailMarker (Dec 8, 2012)

Acts 11:7 said:


> What’s next? Fish finders? Lol 🤦‍♂️
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


live Scope! Seems like cheating. Also GPS because it’s not fair to catch a cheating wife either.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

I know two guys that killed nice bucks this year because of cell cams. They got a picture, dropped what they were doing, stalked in and shot the buck. The camera definitely gave both of these guys and advantage in my opinion.


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## Acts 11:7 (Mar 28, 2007)

Every piece of our hunting equipment is an advantage. We as hunters can’t give an inch. We also can’t be online squabbling about fair chase. Gives the limp wristed anti-hunting crowd something else to divide us. Let’s move on. 


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## Grizzly Adams (Oct 6, 2003)

A person could also use them to watch their 6 while in a blind. Cell cam alert ...oh there's deer that you would have never known was there, moving thru behind you. I've thought about getting them for that purpose ...

Cam alerts to Deer in foodplot while at house ...sneak on trail back there & wack one.


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## Grizzly Adams (Oct 6, 2003)

Lucky Dog said:


> I know two guys that killed nice bucks this year because of cell cams. They got a picture, dropped what they were doing, stalked in and shot the buck. The camera definitely gave both of these guys and advantage in my opinion.


Yuge advantage.


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

springIstrutfallIrut said:


> Yeah I guess it's truly an opinion thing not really whether it's right or wrong. I just don't consider having intel from a pic disqualifying a hunt from being fair chase, the chance of you getting a shot on a certain animal is still very low. The amount of equipment used once out there could all be considered to lower the fair chase meter in our modern hunting world. I can tell you after 2 years of using cell cams in southern MI that I've never seen any consistencies from deer walking in front of those cameras that would give me an advantage in any way shape or form to be unfair. They help me decide , along with many other factors, on which property I will hunt when having to choose from 4 different ones. If I ever get the feeling that those cams are giving me an unfair advantage I would either stop using them or use them in a different way.


First year using cell cams & already used them to my advantage. Doesn't matter what u or I think its what a group of people are willing to push for, your example of 4 different properties would be good for anti cell cam groups


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## Grizzly Adams (Oct 6, 2003)

Acts 11:7 said:


> Every piece of our hunting equipment is an advantage. We as hunters can’t give an inch. We also can’t be online squabbling about fair chase. Gives the limp wristed anti-hunting crowd something else to divide us. Let’s move on.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Lmao ...that's nonsense man.


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## hatcheryman (Jan 23, 2013)

TrailMarker said:


> Illegal everywhere or can I still post them to catch my trespassing neighbors and for varmint hunting


Yes, illegal everywhere but only while hunting. The Conservation officer told my brother he cannot have them up while hunting but any other time they are legal. He owns a 1400 acre ranch and has cell cams up except when hunting. My brother lives in Michigan.


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## onlinebiker (Sep 19, 2019)

Fair chase is a delusional artificial construct.

"Fair" would you naked with no weapons run the deer down and dispatch it with your teeth.

.....

We consider it totally acceptable to kill animals - as long as we do what we can to reduce pain for the animal as much as possible.

Adding elements to make it more diffucult work AGAINST that ideal.


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

All comes down to i don't use one so neither should you .Typical when it comes to hunting .Being a crybaby is gaining steam .No doubt it will happen in Michigan at some point we have more crybabies than most states .


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Acts 11:7 said:


> What’s next? Fish finders? Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


There is alot of talk out there about forward facing sonar ruining fishing. People want it banned for tournaments.


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## Chriss83 (Sep 18, 2021)

Petronius said:


> Some would say the use of drones to locate game, which is now illegal in Michigan, would be on the same level as wireless trail cams.


Then those some have never used them. I have 5 cell cams out at most times. I have hunted stands because of what I have seen yes. It so far has never worked out. Most of them send on a 30 to 45 min. Delay unless you are on the property they are on. Not to mention most of the time you also need to drive too and walk to a stand. Good luck doing that if the buck is still close. A drone is live feed with you controlling it 100 percent different.


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## Chriss83 (Sep 18, 2021)

They may change where you hunt when you hunt but after 3 years using them they have not been "the" reason I've killed anything. A tool to use yes. Most of the guys complaining probably use a Xbow lol.


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

bansheejoel said:


> I’d be for banning cell cams. While they are at it ban xbows too 😊


Fish finders too ...right .


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Cell cameras . Normal cameras , trail timers

All only provide data. How you use the data is up to the hunter. Some might make good calculated decisions some might make poor ones.

A cell cam only provides a small small viewing window in the outdoors. I have had plenty of deer walk just on the other side of the tree my cameras are on never getting a plicture.

When everyone can use any type of available equipment on both privet and public land the only advantage difference is if you deside to buy it and use it or not.

Filling a tag is filling a tag. I would rather seen everyone using cell cams and only have one combo license and one or two doe tags vs 10 Doe tags with no DMU control. 

Someone said what next a fishfinder. I wish I had a nickel for every fish on the screen that did not bite. I also wish I had a nickel for every mile we trolled and hammered the fish with virtually a blank screen that would represent zero fish under the boat.


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## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

I use my cell cams in conjunction with my transporter. Then entry, exit and wind don't matter. I'm always dressed and ready to go in 5 seconds just in case I get that pic. Saves a lot of time. I just sit at the house and wait until the perfect time to beam in to the stand. Works to perfection as I've tagged out in two days every year since they became available.


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## MrFysch (Feb 9, 2008)

wildcoy73 said:


> wait why would I need to complain?
> my understanding is all I have to do is pick up the crossbow,load it, go to the woods and pull the trigger. it is the magic weapon and just goes out and kills the big buck for me.
> lmao. I would trust my compound over my crossbow on most days.
> I can out shoot most crossbow hunters with my bow and 1 pin.
> ...


I accept your xbow to wheelbow challenge at 50 yds. 😎


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## Botiz (Oct 21, 2010)

Sharkbait11 said:


> Who cares as long as people aren't going over their limit


A tremendous amount of hunting opportunity is based on the knowledge that a certain percentage of hunters aren’t going to fill that limit. 

As technology increases efficacy, the only option will be to further limit opportunity. It’s another example of how our instant gratification society causes problems. 

Everyone knows the phrase “be careful what you wish for” but nobody seems to consider what it means.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

wildcoy73 said:


> it will be a day when it comes to michigan.
> yes cell camera have had an effect on where and when I hunt. Have one stand very hot all day long, but with the cell camera telling me all the info. It is very hard stand for me to get Into.
> What the cam shows, I would have to go into the stand about midnight and sit for 24 hours.
> to not push deer I can see away.
> ...


Yes and good luck enforcing the cam ban. Just like bait right? The only way they could slow it down is to ban the sale of the cam itself. Not happening in Michigan. I thought the big group auto insurance companies wants deer dead? What are we doing here?? Another “I have no idea what I’m doing” law. 


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

miruss said:


> I think it's kinda funny on the ways people are already trying to justify their use of the cam if made illegal ! from varmint hunting to looking for trespassers! "Perhaps legislate for higher penalty for illegal cam users . Say a mandatory $1500 fine and 90 days jail plus community service and a 3 year hunting/fishing license ban. Complaining on the internet doesn’t change a thing. "


Thanks for the complaint. No CO’s no penalties. Just like the bait ban. It’s ridiculous to talk about even here in Michigan. Same joke, different day. 


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

bansheejoel said:


> I’d be for banning cell cams. While they are at it ban xbows too


Now we’re talking….


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Why not just allow thermal and 24hr open hunting?

read the story about the harvest of the “Spider Bull”, and see how precious the largest animals have become. (Hint, that guy could have placed 200 cell camera’s in the mountains and still saved money). And then decide if you want to cut everybody loose with a handful of cell cameras in every remote place that animals like the Spider Bull” might inhabit.

The infestation of cellular cameras will deplete the large male cervid population stretching out from population centers. And on a map their density would look just like the spread of coronavirus. With near 100% lethality. 

Once you have 100% coverage, you don’t have to worry about finding a “Spider bull”.
Don’t have to be a genius to figure out that if it takes six or seven years to grow an animal like that you can’t be hunting them down with modern technology.

I suppose it would end up we would all be sitting shoulder to shoulder outside the fence of Yellowstone waiting for something to come out.

Or we would have to limit the tags to accommodate Increased harvest success And light up the residents.


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## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

My 2 cents…

Reading this, I think many people who have posted on this thread either don’t know or don’t realize that out West most of the hunting is on federal or state public lands, or ‘open for hunting’ private lands. For example, when I lived in Oregon I traveled to Joseph’s Canyon and had access to tens of thousands of acres to hunt elk and deer, and would only occasionally see a few other hunter camps in the same general area.

Just as another example, Colorado has almost 25 million acres of public land, and there are additional private ag and tree farms that allow hunting (HAP so considered public hunting on private land) - and that’s on the low side compared with states like Oregon, Washington, Montana or Idaho. 

Michigan has a fair amount of public land up north, but as a state we pale in comparison to those out West - see the public land map here: Total Public Hunting Land Acres by State for USFS, BLM, State Owned

After living in OR, I can see how banning the use of cell cams out there is going to be acceptable because it’s a totally different system and way of hunting. The challenge out West is actually finding the animals, whereas herethe cams are being used to find a specific buck or evaluate all the deer in your area. With that said, I also wouldn’t be surprised if other states follow suit and ban their use on public lands to keep public land hunting as consistent (for lack of a better phrase) for everybody using the lands.

I don’t think most states East of the Mississippi would/could outright ban them because (1) it would be impossible to enforce, and (2) large amounts of hunting are done on private lands. Perhaps just my opinion, but I feel most states allow quite a bit of freedom for how we hunt private properties…

Michigan can’t even enforce a baiting ban, imagine asking DNR to enforce a cell cam ban? Visions of COs running on the proverbial hamster wheel fill my mind….


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Yankee#1 said:


> My 2 cents…
> 
> Reading this, I think many people who have posted on this thread either don’t know or don’t realize that out West most of the hunting is on federal or state public lands, or ‘open for hunting’ private lands. For example, when I lived in Oregon I traveled to Joseph’s Canyon and had access to tens of thousands of acres to hunt elk and deer, and would only occasionally see a few other hunter camps in the same general area.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, access patterns to the public lands of the west follow the main roads and ingress trails. Spreading just like coronavirus. 

Smaller properties for not much money end up with surveillance systems.

I could easily launch a drone from my barn and identify every deer on my property in a 20 minute flight. I can sit in my living room and wait for the cellular cameras to send me pictures of animals that cross the property boundaries.

It becomes an arms race.

In waterfowling, there was undeniable proof of the effect on harvest of Robo ducks. Rules changed to address them.

It will be the same with surveillance cameras.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Yankee#1 said:


> My 2 cents…
> 
> Reading this, I think many people who have posted on this thread either don’t know or don’t realize that out West most of the hunting is on federal or state public lands, or ‘open for hunting’ private lands. For example, when I lived in Oregon I traveled to Joseph’s Canyon and had access to tens of thousands of acres to hunt elk and deer, and would only occasionally see a few other hunter camps in the same general area.
> 
> ...


The little deer farmer that sits on my shoulder keeps whispering in my ear that he loves state land and state land hunters but they should be required to carry their cameras and their stands out at the end of each day. I asked him why and get the usual to make it fair for everyone BS (bumper sticker) response. Apparently guys are hogging up all the good camera trees resulting in reduced opportunities for other hunters and all the associated ownership squabbles.


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## BlackRhino (Feb 21, 2005)

bansheejoel said:


> I’d be for banning cell cams. While they are at it ban xbows too


If it were present, I couldn't hit the "dislike" button hard enough!

It cracks me up, we have to hear this $hi* from the "young studs". I'm 55 with a blown rotator cuff, ban xbows? What am I supposed to just quit because you deem them lesser than your verticals?

I wish I could still use mine...

With respect to cell cams, screw the ban issue. If I see a shooter sent to me on my phone, I sure as hell am not gonna go get dressed, drive 2 miles to my land , sneak out and hope he is still there. Absurd. I'll see the pic, and say dang, should have been out, and move on.

Again, total BS attitudes from people that are "supposed" to be on the same "team"...

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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

BlackRhino said:


> If it were present, I couldn't hit the "dislike" button hard enough!
> 
> It cracks me up, we have to hear this $hi* from the "young studs". I'm 55 with a blown rotator cuff, ban xbows? What am I supposed to just quit because you deem them lesser than your verticals?
> 
> ...


My uncle still manages to hunt with a recurve after 3 rotator cuff surgeries and he is in his late 60's. His most recent surgery was 2 years ago. They can be fixed with a good surgeon.


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## retired dundo (Jul 21, 2015)

Got to face it hunting equipment is getting better every year.You can’t stop it it’s human nature to make thing better and easier.I started in the early 60s.We started with regular bows than first compounds which kept getting better and the first ones became obsolete than crossbows and they kept getting better.Started with smooth bore shotguns. With round balls no scope.Same with muzzleloader old ones don’t compare with modern ones.And cameras in 2000 started with film you had to get developed.We will allways complain about thing getting to easy but you can’t stop it .Imagine if a die hard hunter or fisher men that died in the 50s came back to life and walked around cabellas and saw what we have now.Got to face it things are going to keep getting better and hunting will get easier .Can’t imagine in 20 years what it will be like for today’s kids if there still is hunting


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## JasonSlayer (Aug 4, 2009)

bansheejoel said:


> I’d be for banning cell cams. While they are at it ban xbows too 😊


BOSS!


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## bansheejoel (Oct 15, 2009)

BlackRhino said:


> If it were present, I couldn't hit the "dislike" button hard enough!
> 
> It cracks me up, we have to hear this $hi* from the "young studs". I'm 55 with a blown rotator cuff, ban xbows? What am I supposed to just quit because you deem them lesser than your verticals?
> 
> ...


Awww I hit a nerve huh? You obviously don’t remember that with a “dr note” you would be eligible to use a xbow before the current legislation so you’re argument of not being physically able to pull back a compound or recurve is not valid. Next.....


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## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

mbrewer said:


> The little deer farmer that sits on my shoulder keeps whispering in my ear that he loves state land and state land hunters but they should be required to carry their cameras and their stands out at the end of each day.


I can’t tell if this is real or sarcasm - but I’m just going to say - many states already require hunters to carry in and carry out tree stands on public each day, if not the entire state then definitely in select WMUs.

There are also already a few states that do not allow trail cams of any kind on public land - New York is one that comes to mind…



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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Yankee#1 said:


> I can’t tell if this is real or sarcasm - but I’m just going to say - many states already require hunters to carry in and carry out tree stands on public each day, if not the entire state then definitely in select WMUs.
> 
> There are also already a few states that do not allow trail cams of any kind on public land - New York is one that comes to mind…
> 
> ...


It's both but neither was directed at you.


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## polish.polka.prince (Feb 23, 2014)

its a dangerous slippery-slope to argue fair chase.
it is like a politician trying to divide the ppl with with false data and fear.
we all know hunting is not as easy as most think.
do we want the public to decide, who may believe the fake news they are told.
if one gets in the habit of banning things, it will come back and burn you, one of your hobbies will be hurt by the mob who think they are truly doing the right thing, not realizing they are duped.
is whats happing in this country becoming infectious and making its way into our great sport?


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

I should elaborate on why I feel this is about an antler fetish ego trip.

The camera tells WHAT AN INDIVIDUAL DEER LOOKS LIKE. If it was just about deer, the tracks will tell that just fine, yes or no, I have tracks so I have deer or not. The camera tells you what that deer actually looks like. If anyone tells you differently, they are lying.

ANTLER FETISH EGO TRIP. Oh, BTW, personally guilty.


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## >WingIt< (Nov 16, 2011)

I’d be on board with cameras being banned on public only. Would help with spot claiming issues. Private land I don’t think anyone should be telling you what to do.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

We know that from your pro baiting stance. I do not know why they call it a ML season in zone 3 either.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> MI hunting regulations are what they are, we all deal with them. Don't like them then don't hunt. Xbows are the hottest thing on the market, tenpoint just broke a record now selling a 505fps xbow. Awesome!!!


Would you support allowing traditional flintlock muzzloaders during the archery period? The effective range is similar to a crossbow.


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## >WingIt< (Nov 16, 2011)

MossyHorns said:


> Would you support allowing traditional flintlock muzzloaders during the archery period? The effective range is similar to a crossbow.


Ha. I was going to ask him if we should just allow guns all year. Those are the most effective 


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

MossyHorns said:


> Would you support allowing traditional flintlock muzzloaders during the archery period? The effective range is similar to a crossbow.


Sure, just because it's legal doesn't force me to use one. My daughter hunted 9 years of youth hunt, always used an xbow could have used a gun


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

>WingIt< said:


> Ha. I was going to ask him if we should just allow guns all year. Those are the most effective
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Why choose an inferior weapon to hunt with?


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## >WingIt< (Nov 16, 2011)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> Why choose an inferior weapon to hunt with?


Appreciating and embracing the challenge and intent of a season rather then actively trying to negate and bastardize it. That’s just my opinion though


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

>WingIt< said:


> Appreciating and embracing the challenge and intent of a season rather then actively trying to negate and bastardize it. That’s just my opinion though
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Unfortunately deer hunting has turned into the most greedy sport/hobby there is. More about restricting our neighbors than it is about ourselves. 

Speaking of challenge should NW13 hunters not be proud of their bucks because they have MAPRs that make it easier?(bastardize)


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted (Jul 17, 2015)

MossyHorns said:


> Would you support allowing traditional flintlock muzzloaders during the archery period? The effective range is similar to a crossbow.


What about u Mossy, should MI remove MAPRs because it makes it easier to kill 2.5 year old bucks?


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## LITTLECLEO (Apr 14, 2015)

Geeeeeezzzzzz ,and I thought this thread was about banning cell cams on public


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

Wait till the topic changes to food that does not drift in the wind while up in a permanent tree stand on state land hunting over a bait pile! 🙄


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> What about u Mossy, should MI remove MAPRs because it makes it easier to kill 2.5 year old bucks?


I support a 1 buck rule.


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

>WingIt< said:


> Appreciating and embracing the challenge and intent of a season rather then actively trying to negate and bastardize it. That’s just my opinion though
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


So your using a longbow or a pre 1990 compound ??


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

miruss said:


> So your using a longbow or a pre 1990 compound ??


Now a season of that would be awesome!!! It would definitely eliminate the pretenders. 


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

I can feel the Tendinous in my arm on that!


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

sniper said:


> Now a season of that would be awesome!!! It would definitely eliminate the pretenders.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Mehh.
Eliminate the "modern" long bows and go to an atlatl season.


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## >WingIt< (Nov 16, 2011)

miruss said:


> So your using a longbow or a pre 1990 compound ??


No Mathews Creed 


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

Outlaw Mathews Halon 6 and I'm an outlaw.


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## >WingIt< (Nov 16, 2011)

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> Unfortunately deer hunting has turned into the most greedy sport/hobby there is. More about restricting our neighbors than it is about ourselves.
> 
> Speaking of challenge should NW13 hunters not be proud of their bucks because they have MAPRs that make it easier?(bastardize)


Besides the fact that easier isn’t even a synonym for bastardize… please explain what the original intent and challenge of deer season in the NW12 was supposed to be and how the regs have bastardized that intent. 


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

DirtySteve said:


> I wonder if the new utah law extends to bird hunters and hound hunters? It says it bans hand held electronic devices. Gps collars for dogs might fall into that .


Heck using dogs for hunting for that matter .


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## BigWoods Bob (Mar 15, 2007)

Biggest concern/question is will this be a trend Nation Wide? Utah's stated reasons for the ban, certainly could be argued in any State. 

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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

BigWoods Bob said:


> Biggest concern/question is will this be a trend Nation Wide? Utah's stated reasons for the ban, certainly could be argued in any State.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


The term fair chase is in the eye of the beholder and is subject to whomever is in charge of game management in a given state . Deer drives are considered poaching in some states but not Michigan .Road hunting is legal in some states but considered poaching in Michigan .The power is given to a few people to decide what they think fair chase is and can change from one year to the next .


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## BigWoods Bob (Mar 15, 2007)

Thirty pointer said:


> The term fair chase is in the eye of the beholder and is subject to whomever is in charge of game management in a given state . Deer drives are considered poaching in some states but not Michigan .Road hunting is legal in some states but considered poaching in Michigan .The power is given to a few people to decide what they think fair chase is and can change from one year to the next .


Yep! That....AND the fact that those positions are often Politically appointed (think our NRC). If the "Politics" of Trail Cameras and fair chase, are on people's Radar Nationally, how long before it comes up here? 

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## michaelbetzold989 (Jan 6, 2022)

Thirty pointer said:


> Heck using dogs for hunting for that matter .


What's that mean or how are you saying it because if you are anti dog idk why we raise money it's harder then the dog does everything but I mean you realize comments like that if it is antihound are BS you want to bicker instead of standing for hunting rights across board so future generations can enjoy


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

michaelbetzold989 said:


> What's that mean or how are you saying it because if you are anti dog idk why we raise money it's harder then the dog does everything but I mean you realize comments like that if it is antihound are BS you want to bicker instead of standing for hunting rights across board so future generations can enjoy


If you believe that the definition of fair chase is changeable , then anything beyond your bare hands would be potentially changeable.

I don’t think it was an anti-hound slam. I think he really meant that using dogs as a component of hunting, is controlled by legislatures.
We are in an electronic arms race, and the easier and cheaper surveillance gets, the greater the impact it has on the resource.

Game managers to respond to the developments.

I can see the day when there are so many cellular game cameras out in the forest, that companies start selling electronic countermeasures to give you an advantage over other nearby cell operators.


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

michaelbetzold989 said:


> What's that mean or how are you saying it because if you are anti dog idk why we raise money it's harder then the dog does everything but I mean you realize comments like that if it is antihound are BS you want to bicker instead of standing for hunting rights across board so future generations can enjoy


No I used beagles my whole life just used dogs as an example .Some people think using dogs is not fair chase .That was my point .I use cameras ...lots of them some here have bashed using them as unfair .Hope you get the point


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## Hangnbang2021 (Aug 2, 2021)

I’m guessing outfitters hounding animals most of the year with cameras for a profit doesn’t help.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Hangnbang2021 said:


> I’m guessing outfitters hounding animals most of the year with cameras for a profit doesn’t help.


Not many outfitters in Michigan.
We already have 1 law that is nearly impossible to police on private land and that is baiting. Some say not on public land either. For sure the DNR makes no attempt to enforce the removal of treestands on public lands. 
No one at the DNR or NRC level is talking about adding yet another law that would seldom be enforced.

L & O


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## BlackRhino (Feb 21, 2005)

More brain dead "law makers" stepping in areas they have no business being in.

"Law makers" suck.

Sent from my SM-A515U using Tapatalk


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Hangnbang2021 said:


> I’m guessing outfitters hounding animals most of the year with cameras for a profit doesn’t help.


Do you think?

When I read the story of the Spider bull it sickened me.
10 guys night and day for months helicopters hunter harassment sabotage and bushel baskets of money.

Now everybody with the extra thousand can put cellular cams every place they think they might see something worth shooting

You can bet the edges of Yellowstone will be plastered with cell cams if only for the sheep


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## Chriss83 (Sep 18, 2021)

Gamekeeper said:


> Do you think?
> 
> When I read the story of the Spider bull it sickened me.
> 10 guys night and day for months helicopters hunter harassment sabotage and bushel baskets of money.
> ...


What cell cam costs 1000s? 😳 guess Mr spidey should have used his powers and stayed in the park. Why is a shame someone got to harvest him??


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## michaelbetzold989 (Jan 6, 2022)

Gamekeeper said:


> If you believe that the definition of fair chase is changeable , then anything beyond your bare hands would be potentially changeable.
> 
> I don’t think it was an anti-hound slam. I think he really meant that using dogs as a component of hunting, is controlled by legislatures.
> We are in an electronic arms race, and the easier and cheaper surveillance gets, the greater the impact it has on the resource.
> ...


Thats why drones are illegal all ready I don't even want to kill a bear but helped disabled vet get bear kill month ago thru non profit I enjoy the chase plus hounds are one of top efficient ways to manage bear population


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## michaelbetzold989 (Jan 6, 2022)

Thirty pointer said:


> No I used beagles my whole life just used dogs as an example .Some people think using dogs is not fair chase .That was my point .I use cameras ...lots of them some here have bashed using them as unfair .Hope you get the point


No I can see but most non houndsmen critic saying dog does it all don't truly understand dynamics so I apologize for comment but I see bickering between hunters when politics gonna take away are rights


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

michaelbetzold989 said:


> Thats why drones are illegal all ready I don't even want to kill a bear but helped disabled vet get bear kill month ago thru non profit I enjoy the chase plus hounds are one of top efficient ways to manage bear population


Yes, with hounds you get to choose whether to shoot or not. Far fewer cubs far fewer sows shot in error.


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## retired dundo (Jul 21, 2015)

All I know is I started hunting in early 60s and there is no comparing the equipment we used than and now.Everything is 100percent better guns bows crossbows blinds shells arrows cloths evan cameras.I think hunting was lot harder back than.Hell you could look at fishing to


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

Gamekeeper said:


> I don’t think it was an anti-hound slam. I think he really meant that using dogs as a component of hunting, is controlled by legislatures.


Absolutely.

For example -
South Carolina, hunting deer with dogs is legal and common
Michigan, hunting deer with dogs is poaching.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

pescadero said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> For example -
> South Carolina, hunting deer with dogs is legal and common
> Michigan, hunting deer with dogs is poaching.


Pescy, hounds really aren’t my thing, mostly because of the noise and my decreasing hearing.
I have enjoyed their song in years past in many places.

But Houndsman feel under assault in every place they are still allowed to run dogs.

So, they can be a little prickly.

As a group of outdoorsman, we need to support them in whatever ways we can.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Gamekeeper said:


> Pescy, hounds really aren’t my thing, mostly because of the noise and my decreasing hearing.
> I have enjoyed their song in years past in many places.
> 
> But Houndsman feel under assault in every place they are still allowed to run dogs.
> ...


Today many hound hunters hide behind the phrase, them dogs dont know their on private property. Or them dogs didnt see you hunting there, they had their noses to the ground. Hound hunters make their own lives hard.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Certainly enjoyed my days afield running hounds and terriers.
Added quite a dimension.


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