# College Degree



## garrett18 (Dec 2, 2014)

Hi. I'm currently a high school senior and going to be deciding where to go to college soon and what kind of degree I would like to pursue. I was wondering if there Is anyone on here who has a degree in Fisheries and Wildlife MGMT, Conservation biology or Natural Resources. Just wanted some insight into what kind of jobs, what degrees to go after, To go for bachelors or masters, etc. and if this is a good career. I've been big into hunting my whole life and love the outdoors. Im accepted into all the colleges I've applied to, Michigan State and Lake Superior State both offer degrees in these fields. Thanks for the help. Sorry if I didn't do this right or put it in the right place, this is my first time posting. 


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## cronkdre (Sep 11, 2012)

Just my opinion, but I would recommend getting a degree leads to a job that pays well and has a good vacation policy. That way you can afford to buy gear and maybe take a trip or two each season. Having a flexible schedule is nice so you can get out before or after work during the week.


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

Go for the money or something you love . Both have plusses and minuses. Bigger bucks allow you to enjoy your outdoor passions , yet being a slave to a " job" can be a constant source of irritation . Working in the field is great, not normally great pay , decent benefits however.


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## SWMbruiser (Jan 25, 2012)

I can't speak for what current market is like. But I had a distant relative who tried to do something similar around 10 years back. He made it sound like finding a job was quite difficult out of school especially in Michigan. He really wanted to work for the DNR and I couldn't tell you exactly what his degree was. I actually believe he ended up taking a job at GM instead. I wouldn't let something like that deter you though. If it is what you want to do and enjoy it, then you definitely should. Just try and go in with an open mind and realize you may have to be flexible with your future job. If I could go back I would probably do something similar to what you are talking. May not have really answered your question lol. But kind of intrigued what others with more experience have to say. Whatever you do get it done quick, don't let those student loans rack up from too much partying, cuz they SUCK!


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

If that's what you like, go for it. I've got friends working in the field for the state as foresters, fisheries techs, and other endeavors. They have classmates who have moved out west as there is a lot of work out there. A place not to overlook is the Feds. Money is rarely an issue and they have good pensions.

For what it's worth, I'd throw CMU into the mix too. The biological station on Beaver Island is really something. I know of a couple of grads working for the State. MSU certainly has the pipeline to the DNR, as well as alumni connections. Please be aware a masters is probably needed to be a biologist if not Phd and there are only a finite number of biologists with the State. Those jobs don't open up everyday, but you still have the Feds, wildlife orgs, other states, etc. Good luck and follow that dream!


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## rjmacker (Sep 3, 2011)

As a student at Lake State I will give you a few observations I have seen over my years here:
1) From friends I have in the field, there are jobs available, but most of those are out west (at least that's where people I know have found work)
2) Be ready to do a lot of school work that doesn't end up with a high paying job.
3) Take any chance at an internship you can to get an "in", and plan on staying there after you graduate.
Once again this is just from people I know in Fish and Wildlife, but most of them love it and would probably do it again if they had to. If it is what you love then go for it and don't look back!


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## lawnboy (Jun 5, 2000)

In my mind the job market is stagnate in this area, if the state does not have money they do not put much money into the programs and most employees end up being part-time waiting years and years for a full time job. If you do decide to go is way, look into something that can be used all over the US and be prepared to move. In my mind environmental science may be the way to go. Best thing to do is go to the college and talk to them, find out what the job placement success rate is and that will tell out a LOT. Most important is to find something that YOU like, but on the other hand you have to be able to make a living at it also and this is the hard part.


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## Sansan1337 (Jan 25, 2013)

garrett18 said:


> Hi. I'm currently a high school senior and going to be deciding where to go to college soon and what kind of degree I would like to pursue. I was wondering if there Is anyone on here who has a degree in Fisheries and Wildlife MGMT, Conservation biology or Natural Resources. Just wanted some insight into what kind of jobs, what degrees to go after, To go for bachelors or masters, etc. and if this is a good career. I've been big into hunting my whole life and love the outdoors. Im accepted into all the colleges I've applied to, Michigan State and Lake Superior State both offer degrees in these fields. Thanks for the help. Sorry if I didn't do this right or put it in the right place, this is my first time posting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


I am a high school senior as well, if it means anything, I'm headed tp LSSU for fisheries and wildlife management. Might want to check into Northern or GVSU (GPA and ACT dependent).


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## Sansan1337 (Jan 25, 2013)

Also I have a buddy that is a fisheries biologist for the feds........rollin' in dough with super flexible hours.


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## garrett18 (Dec 2, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies! Not too concerned about the money aspect of it, would rather do something I love and make a decent income than do something I hate. I'll be sure to look into CMU as they offered me a pretty big scholarship based on Act & gpa. Sansan, how did u like LSSU when you visited? I'm taking a tour soon. 


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## Sansan1337 (Jan 25, 2013)

garrett18 said:


> Thanks for all the replies! Not too concerned about the money aspect of it, would rather do something I love and make a decent income than do something I hate. I'll be sure to look into CMU as they offered me a pretty big scholarship based on Act & gpa. Sansan, how did u like LSSU when you visited? I'm taking a tour soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


So a 3.0 and a 20 ACT doesn't get scholarships lol. 

I loved it! I like that it's small, and up north. People were great too! Nice place to visit, and spend 4 years.


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## lssu-laker (Feb 24, 2009)

My avatar name will give away my bias BUT its hard to beat LSSU for what they will offer you for the $$$, size of the class rooms, interactions with the profs. and experience of hands on work. They are the only university in the state with a working fish hatchery, and provide the population of Atlantic salmon for the MI DNR. While I was there I resurrected the American Fisheries Society (student chapter) it has blossomed into a wonderful chapter in conjunction with the F & W club. AFS is the PIPELINE to jobs, NOT just the MI DNR. Be warned if you do choose to go to LSSU they will work your butt off, and you will also present a THESIS before you graduate! They have a Napoleon complex but you will come ready to compete for any F & W job!


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## garrett18 (Dec 2, 2014)

Also a few spots to hunt around there! A couple buddies of mine that duck hunt will be going there too


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## rjmacker (Sep 3, 2011)

Yes the duck hunting is pretty ok too lol


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## Tubby (Oct 14, 2012)

MTU has a Wildlife Ecology and Management major.

I advise you to choose your minor carefully. Worst mistake I made (besides going to college in the first place) was not working toward something that is applicable to many industries. My education severely limits my related career offerings. 

Doing something for a living can ruin the passion. I started a reloading business 8 years ago as a way to make money on the side to pay down debts. I shot a lot of ammo each week, competed in IDPA, USPSA, trap, skeet, sporting clays, and hunted just about every day even if it was only an hour. Now it's just part of an obligation. Not including test ammo firing, I haven't shot anything outside of hunting for about 6 years. I'm too busy loading ammo for others I don't load for myself much. All I wanted to do was hang out in my reloading room and load ammo. Then I made it my livelihood and it took the passion out of me. 

Following your passion is not always great advice. It doesn't mean you will be good at it or successful. A lot of passions I followed in life left me bitter.

Be careful about immersing yourself in a passion for a living. The advice I give to my kids is to start their own business or becomes a tradesman. Electricians, plumbers, millwrights, HVAC, mechanics, linemen, etc are all retiring without their positions being filled. That is opportunity for job security and being your own boss. Your skill will always be in demand. If I would have the opportunity to go back to HS and do it over, I'd go skilled trades no doubt. Welding, electrician, plumber would be my top choices. I wouldn't have huge student loan debt. I would likely work for myself and set my own schedules. I like my reloading business and it is very profitable, but it takes a huge volume to be full time and I'm not anywhere near that.


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## casscityalum (Aug 27, 2007)

garrett18 said:


> Hi. I'm currently a high school senior and going to be deciding where to go to college soon and what kind of degree I would like to pursue. I was wondering if there Is anyone on here who has a degree in Fisheries and Wildlife MGMT, Conservation biology or Natural Resources. Just wanted some insight into what kind of jobs, what degrees to go after, To go for bachelors or masters, etc. and if this is a good career. I've been big into hunting my whole life and love the outdoors. Im accepted into all the colleges I've applied to, Michigan State and Lake Superior State both offer degrees in these fields. Thanks for the help. Sorry if I didn't do this right or put it in the right place, this is my first time posting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire



What do your parents do or where are you from as far as agriculture? Another career to look into is crop and soil science at Msu. Lots and lots of different kind of jobs. Good to great pay depending on companies. Good vacation time and health benefits. One of the perks is a lot of the Ag industry's likes to hunt and fish. Companies such as DuPont, Dow agri, basf and even Monsanto have duck clubs and hunting clubs.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

garrett18 said:


> Thanks for all the replies! Not too concerned about the money aspect of it, would rather do something I love and make a decent income than do something I hate. I'll be sure to look into CMU as they offered me a pretty big scholarship based on Act & gpa. Sansan, how did u like LSSU when you visited? I'm taking a tour soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


Trust me. Be concerned about the money. What may "seem" like enough now will not after you graduate


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## garrett18 (Dec 2, 2014)

casscityalum said:


> What do your parents do or where are you from as far as agriculture? Another career to look into is crop and soil science at Msu. Lots and lots of different kind of jobs. Good to great pay depending on companies. Good vacation time and health benefits. One of the perks is a lot of the Ag industry's likes to hunt and fish. Companies such as DuPont, Dow agri, basf and even Monsanto have duck clubs and hunting clubs.


 I have some experience with Agriculture stuff, I've been in 4H for many years. Mostly raising animals though. 








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## bapotter (Aug 20, 2014)

Working in the conservation field is fantastic, but you must have the passion to do it. It is not one of the fields where you can just be happy with a paycheck. There is typically a lot of competition for jobs and you need to be flexible to move out of state early in your career. A Masters degree is a must. A PhD is not necessary but doesn't hurt. 

Here is a very quick break-down of the types of jobs you could expect with the various conservation agencies:

State Departments of Natural Resources - primarily game fish and wildlife management on and off state-owned land; some biodiversity/non-game management (this is increasing in some DNRs); some research programs (this component has diminished over the years)

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service - migratory game bird (i.e., waterfowl, woodcock, etc) and non-game bird management; fisheries management; endangered species conservation; managing the National Wildlife Refuge system and private land conservation; landscape conservation (i.e., coordinating efforts across multiple states); growing research programs

U.S. Forest Service - management of federal forest land for numerous ecological services - timber, fish and wildlife (biodiversity) conservation, recreation, etc; strong research programs

National Park Service - preservation of federal park lands and monuments - more hands off approach; monitoring; research

U.S. Geological Survey - any field of conservation related science and research

Non-governmental Organizations (Ducks Unlimited, The Nature Conservancy, Trout Unlimited, Pheasants, etc) - variety of opportunities; technical engineering assistance; conservation planning; fundraising

I'm leaving out others like USDA NRCS, Wildlife Services, NOAA conservation related programs, DEQ's, etc.

The fun jobs (field based research and management) are typically technician level and lower pay (just enough to live). Managing projects, programs, or field stations pay better but spend very little time in the field. Like all disciplines, program directors, chiefs, administrators, etc make the most pay but tend to spend the least time in the field. If you work hard and have a good head on your shoulders you can advance quickly in some of these agencies/organizations.

You have the schools nailed (I'm partial to CMU though). Major in fish and wildlife management, natural resources, or conservation biology. Minor in geography or business. Geography because geographic information is extremely important to fish and wildlife management. Business because "business concepts" are being used more and more in the conservation field.

We need more like you continuing to enter the field with a background in, and understanding of, hunting and fishing. Previously, this was the case for most but it is changing. I appreciate the variety of perspectives that come with this change, but we need new folks to continue to carry the understanding and voice the importance of hunting and fishing to conservation.

Drop me a PM if you want more detail.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

hey great thread. I commend you for reach in out and getting advice from different resources. I am currently going through this with my son who is a junior and also shares your interests. 

here is a thought for you......do you have any interest in engineering? civil engineering is a great way to work in the outdoors and there are tons of ways to specialize in civil engineering like water management etc. there are also alot of jobs for organizations like ducks unlimited working on wetland restoration projects. a math based degree like civil engineering opens the doors to just about any type of job in the future and would keep your options open. there are about 10 different areas you can specialize in with civil engineering. many of them are related to the type of work you are interested in and probably pay much more......and there are jobs anywhere in the world you want to go.

I would agree with most on here that the type of fields you are looking at are probably out of state at the moment but dont let that discourage you.....everyone told me the same at the time I graduated and I worked hard at my goals and things fell into place for me.

if you are interested in going to school in the UP dont overlook northern and michigan tech. tech has forrestry and an awesome civil engineering program.....and a cool place to go to school.

good luck and let us know what you decide!





_Posted from Michigan-sportsman.com App for Android_


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## vezben (Aug 13, 2011)

GIS. Lots of demand in all sorts of disciplines for that technical background. A GIS focused wildlife/fisheries degree will make you very marketable and if you find the "outdoor" career prospects poor upon graduation you can spin that GIS education into any number of other fields to keep the bills paid and build up experience.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

vezben said:


> GIS. Lots of demand in all sorts of disciplines for that technical background. A GIS focused wildlife/fisheries degree will make you very marketable and if you find the "outdoor" career prospects poor upon graduation you can spin that GIS education into any number of other fields to keep the bills paid and build up experience.


I'll match his 3 letters with 2 words: Marry well. Find a pre-law or pre-med coed with a head on her shoulders. Scout this as carefully as the late 2-day season!:lol::coolgleam


As an aside, these types of degrees along with engineering mentioned above do very well in the private sector. Enbridge spent a billion two - that's billion with a B - cleaning up the K-zoo River oil spill. Thats a drop in the bucket compared to what is spent in the private environmental sector every year. Look at the BP spill in the gulf a few years ago or Katrina clean-up or the stimulus that is the EPA. Jess sayin'.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Tubby said:


> Following your passion is not always great advice. It doesn't mean you will be good at it or successful. A lot of passions I followed in life left me bitter.
> 
> Be careful about immersing yourself in a passion for a living. The advice I give to my kids is to start their own business or becomes a tradesman. Electricians, plumbers, millwrights, HVAC, mechanics, linemen, etc are all retiring without their positions being filled. That is opportunity for job security and being your own boss. Your skill will always be in demand. If I would have the opportunity to go back to HS and do it over, I'd go skilled trades no doubt. Welding, electrician, plumber would be my top choices. I wouldn't have huge student loan debt. I would likely work for myself and set my own schedules. I like my reloading business and it is very profitable, but it takes a huge volume to be full time and I'm not anywhere near that.


i've been sitting back watching the replies. I never want to discourage anybody following their dreams but this post above is some pretty sound advice and wish i woulda had this advice given to me early. I went the school route, went after what i was good at and wanted to do. then struggled to find a job in an area that was huntable. lots of job offers in major cities but nothing rural where i could hunt efficiently. I wish i woulda went with trade skill. Opportunity to be self employed is greater, freedom of schedule woulda came much easier. 

i know a lot of biologists and such...always thought i wanted to go that field because i was crazy about the outdoors and hunting...til i actually seen what they have to do and deal with. no thanks. 

and only way i would go university route is if it was completely covered by my parents or some kind of college fund. Todays student debt is crazy and feel bad for the kids coming out with false hopes of 98% placement rates...and +$100k in debt.

my advice, do local college for 2 years. get your transferable basic credits out of the way. It gives you 2 more years of growing up and more time to investigate the real world....then make the decision on your career path.


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## Dubllung4 (Dec 29, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> my advice, do local college for 2 years. get your transferable basic credits out of the way. It gives you 2 more years of growing up and more time to investigate the real world....then make the decision on your career path.


This.

I was once in your shoes, thinking I would love to be some type of biologist to get me outdoors more. The more I looked into it the less I liked it. Sure the material was enjoyable enough but the work was not. Work is harder to come by and generally pay is not as great. 

I opted to go the engineering route and would do the same 100x over. Spend your entire Christmas break applying for scholarships, even the ones you don't think you have a prayer in getting. I applied for over 20 scholarships Christmas break of my senior year and I am glad I did. There are scholarships out there that no one applies to every year. 

Depending on how you sit financially don't be afraid to take 2 years going to a community college. This will save you a lot of money and allow you to get most of your prereqs out of the way. These classes are generally easier and should allow you to work quite a bit while taking them.

Start looking into internships now. It is never too early to get a foot in the door. Making connections now will pay off in the future.


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## oldforester (Feb 12, 2004)

While your passion may be in wildlife or natural resource management, please understand that the people who run this country only care about management of taxpayer dollars and political influence. 

I spent my life working all over the country managing natural resources and had a great time, but watched others climb the ladder of pay and status based on things other than basic knowledge and hard work.

If I had it all to do over at this point I would be looking to work on a course of study that had the words engineering or environmental in them. The "professionals" who run things have much more respect for those two words than any others. 

I loved what I did, but would have had more time at home with my family and advanced in pay scale higher if I had been less involved with dirt forestry and more involved with office based environmental engineering.

Good luck to you what ever you decide to do.


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## Aukebay123 (Sep 9, 2003)

If you get a job you like you'll never work another day in your life. I work for The national oceanographic and atmospheric administration NOAA as a marine biologist in Juneau Alaska.I graduated in premed from Western Michigan was accepted to medical school at Michigan but was offered a summer job with the University of Michigan great lakes research division doing fisheries research on Lake Michiganand decided I would rather do that than be a physician. My parents were not too happy about that. I got a masters degree from Michigan and worked all around the Great Lakes before moving to Alaska where I've been the past 30 years. Sure I could've made more money as a physician but 100 K a year isn't too bad and I can't believe I get paid to do what I do for work. Most people spend a lot of money to come up here and do things that I do every day and get paid for.


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## skycarp10 (Oct 14, 2012)

I am a wetland ecologist and PhD candidate at CMU. Our Institute for Great Lakes Research is at the forefront of research in the Great Lakes region, which is enhanced by our biological station and its resources. I agree with many of the statements listed above about job availability, requirements (masters minimum) and pay scale. You can PM me if you have specific questions about our programs or anything related to this topic. Good luck in finding what you are looking for.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Mechanical Engineer in the automotive industry for 20 years. I like what I do and am pretty good at it, but this gig is slowly killing me. I just turned 40 and can't see doing this the rest of my life. When I get vacation the phone is usually ringing, never really get a chance to catch up, constant head aches. Not enough time off.

That said, I'm forty, have all the hunting and fishing gear I would ever need including waterfowl and salmon gear, a fleet of mostly old cars, two kids with significant college funds and private education, and a third with health issues that we were able to have my wife quit her job to take care of. House will be paid off in three years.

So really, I can see both sides of the fence. Doing something you love is great, but being able to pay the bills and not think twice about going away for dinner or a weekend with the family (and forgetting the phone when I do) is really nice.

I have a slightly older fishing buddy who is a plumber. Great guy works like a dog. Blew up his shoulder last year had to rehab for 6 months. He's pushing 50 and his job is physically taking it's toll, like mine is mentally.


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## cronkdre (Sep 11, 2012)

I'll also agree with those saying engineering as this is the route I took. The schooling is pretty tough and I hated it while I was getting my degree.

Looking back, I'm 25 now and I've been out of school 3 years now and I see my friends with easier degrees that still don't have jobs. I had 5-6 good offers by the time I graduated. I was able to live at home for a year after school and paid off all my student loans. Saved up more money after that and bought a goose hunting trailer and field spread and 2 duck boats. Bought my first house 1.5 years ago and have a pretty flexible schedule that allows me to hunt 4-5 days a week and have enough vacation to go to North Dakota and Arkansas each year to hunt.

Just posting my story for a different perspective that will still allow you to spend a good amount of time doing things you enjoy with the pay and benefits so you can afford to do them.


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## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

ok,,advice from an old geezer.

#1 sounds like you have a good head on your shouldwers. your thinking about the future and trying to find out what to do to prepare for your future. ^5

#2 to a degree (bad pun intended) your right, if your doing something you love, you will never work a day in your life,,,or so they say.

so heres the thing if you seek success in life, hang out with and emulate thoser that are succesfull at what you want to do. simple enough huh? you need to decide fisheries? wildlife? forestry? research? enforcement,,,theres a lot of ways to go.
since you have a little time , now is a perfect time to explore some of the options you have.
i recomend you volunteer with the dnr. perhaps with the stewardship unit. or some other area just once a month for a day to talk to people in the field, see what they actually do for a living. 
other groups use volunteers too. a beautiful chance for you to meet graduate students from msu, along with a professor or two from msu, the dnr fisheries department, and more is to volunteer to go camping on the black river, can be a weekend , or a week depending on what you can do. the black river chapter of Sturgeon for tomorrow camp on the river every spring to protect the sturgeon spawning run. you could learn a lot about the fisheries department while enjoying a camping trip at the same time.and as a bonus maybe help capture and tag a 6 ft 100 year old sturgeon. i recomend you look them up website Sturgeon for tomorrow , black river chapter. 
also look for other volunteer opportunities. forestry div. may have something, certainly the state parks system does. these are ways to just spend a few hours or days to see what is there and exactly what you really love. 
i wish you the very best of luck. remember, always strive to be the person you admire most.


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## garrett18 (Dec 2, 2014)

What kind of engineering do you do?


cronkdre said:


> I'll also agree with those saying engineering as this is the route I took. The schooling is pretty tough and I hated it while I was getting my degree.
> 
> Looking back, I'm 25 now and I've been out of school 3 years now and I see my friends with easier degrees that still don't have jobs. I had 5-6 good offers by the time I graduated. I was able to live at home for a year after school and paid off all my student loans. Saved up more money after that and bought a goose hunting trailer and field spread and 2 duck boats. Bought my first house 1.5 years ago and have a pretty flexible schedule that allows me to hunt 4-5 days a week and have enough vacation to go to North Dakota and Arkansas each year to hunt.
> 
> Just posting my story for a different perspective that will still allow you to spend a good amount of time doing things you enjoy with the pay and benefits so you can afford to do them.






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## cronkdre (Sep 11, 2012)

I have a civil engineering degree because I wanted to be outside building bridges/dams etc. I do no engineering work currently, I hired into a large manufacturing company straight into a management position. I would not have had that opportunity without my degree though. 

There are a couple routes you can take- more of a design route or the management route. I chose the latter because the downside of a civil degree is that business can be slow during the winter months and now I don't have to worry about that.


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## dmrbigeshott (Apr 18, 2010)

Contact people who are already in the profession and see if you can set up a meeting to get more information. People love to talk about themselves and it will be a great opportunity to see what it is really like in the job, not just what a counselor tells you.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I attended LSSU for 4 years I have a degree in Natural Resources Technology and a Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice Conservation Law Enforcement. When I graduated and several years thereafter if you wanted to get a job in that field you almost had to get military points or be a minority. After about 6 years of no satisfaction. I went into the insurance field.
I own my own business and I like what I do. Financially I do not make a killing because it costs money to be in business for yourself. As for hunting and fishing time I have plenty of it. I happen to live where I am 2 minutes from some great fishing and 10 minutes from some great hunting. 
I would not spend the money going to college today knowing the results that I got out of it. For about $400 you could get a Property Casualty Life and Health insurance license. With a little research you could get connected with plenty of insurance carriers.


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## BangBangBang (Mar 30, 2011)

My own thoughts on this as I have a senior right now and a freshman on the way:

A "college education" ain't nearly what it once was yet it retains all the mystique and snobbishness of days gone by. Plus, it has turned out that cultural pressures make everyone feel they HAVE to go to college or else.
(LDO! we got some drinkin to do!!!)

40 years ago, a bachelor degree meant something. It, like our money, has been inflated and debased beyond worth for most jobs.

Then you could look at a chart of college cost over time and see an exponential growth pattern that ought to make you pause.

During that pause, it's a good time to realize that the gov enabled and made almost all that lending/money creation come into existence.


At this point, my own hobby/interest in understanding banking/money/credit/debt intrudes into my thinking as I realize that what has passed for normal for over 40 years, is about to come undone and that as part of this process, humans are about to change up the very monetary system we all use and have gotten especially used to in the last 40 or so years. 
This change is and has been underway but world wide monetary change is glacially slow until it isn't...(reminds one of the Hemingway quote about how one got to be bankrupt: "slowly at first, then all at once")we only await the "until it isn't" part.

That change coming at us will reorder things in everyone's everyday lives because the source of money (u.s. gov/us dollar) for the world will be over. 
The new system will not be one of using debt as an asset and so no more Triffin's Dilemma to dump money on the rest of the world.

What that means in small part is there will be no more high college costs- no credit to be easily used to pay for it.

Debt held on this side of the change won't survive the change either.

So....what did I conclude? 

Well, my kids think I'm a certified nut. And that's fine. Anyone who read this far probably has as well. 
I have concluded that we will take advantage of easy credit that abounds today and she will rack up as much as she can.
All these debts won't make it through the changing monetary conditions so why not??
And if the final change is slower than hoped for, she will just start paying it down like she already thinks she will have to.


The new system will be an even playing field for the world- as I said, no more Triffin's Dilemma- that one change has implications that are simply astounding. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the whole "job market" after the change will change in ways unimaginable now so there will be a lot of jobs on the losing end and the new ones that are unimaginable right now will take up the slack.

The world is in a giant lame duck mode right now and until this change finishes (the ending will be fast), best to keep on as though this is really how the world will be.

My kids wants to be a doctor.

Now if she was interested in majoring in woman's studies or some lame ass progressive make-degree, then no. I would try as hard as possible to keep her out of it. It's worthless "education", and taking on debt for something so dumb is even dumber.

I guess what I'm saying is make sure you feel you really NEED the "higher ed" for what you want to do.

How's that for weirdest post of the year?


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

I'm hoping the college cost bubble hits before my kids get there. My degree has paid off for me in spades; my wife's was a wash.

There was an epic rant on the Best of Craigslist's about funding college, which concluded the two ways overbearing parents funded college was to take out student loans, or borrow against the inflated value of their houses, neither of which involved money that actually existed.


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## JBooth (Sep 21, 2009)

BangBangBang said:


> My own thoughts on this as I have a senior right now and a freshman on the way:
> 
> A "college education" ain't nearly what it once was yet it retains all the mystique and snobbishness of days gone by. Plus, it has turned out that cultural pressures make everyone feel they HAVE to go to college or else.
> (LDO! we got some drinkin to do!!!)
> ...


Well.........maybe. I at least agree with the last part. Go with a specific field in mind. Everyone has business degrees now. Science and Technology is where it is at (Engineering, sciences (natural, social-think data mining, computer science/programming, etc). Focus yourself on one thing and know that you will likely need to go to grad school. As someone mentioned earlier, if I had to do it over, i'd be going into a trade school because learning how to build and fix things will never go away and you can make your own hours.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

well bang your post was actually well thought out..give ya credit for that. hehe. Its actually not too far off from the inevitable....its just how fast does that happen...my lifetime? my kids lifetime..his kids lifetime? its really hard to say how long our addiction to credit will last....or when the system will implode.


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## Pat P (Nov 19, 2013)

I have been following this for a while and finally decided to put in my 0.02. I am a mechanical engineer fresh out of school, graduated in 2013. For me finding a job was not difficult and I was able to work 3 very well paying co-ops while in college. However, I am still paying back my loans and it will be that way for a while. I don't think that an engineer in the automotive industry was the job for me so I now work for a start-up company that allows me much more freedom with my time and provides a large role on projects. The down side is I am not making as much money, but I do enjoy my work. 

If I were you I would say go with what you enjoy, it will make school much easier when you are reading and studying for something that you appreciate. I hated math, hence, ME probably wasn't the best choice for me. I too debated the conservationist route and wish that I would've gone to NMU. I have many friends that went there and it sounded like an absolute blast, Marquette is awesome if it is what you are looking for. I also would love to travel out west for work having been trapped in the Detroit area all my life. 

So my advice - go with what you like and if you change your mind you can always switch. It will make school a lot more enjoyable and one of the best things about college in my opinion is the social experience. You will meet all kinds of people and will put in a dorm with thousands of other kids your age living on their own for the first time. I am tens of thousands of dollars in debt but I don't regret it. Just make sure you put in 100% and pass all your classes, then have as much fun as you want on the side.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

I'm not sure about the degrees, I know MSU has a good program.... In any event, I STRONGLY recommend spending some time out in the Rocky Mountains.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Lot's of good points made. I'll throw in my two cents (which will echo many already made).

My own personal case study...
- my brother and I both grew up doing anything and everything outdoors, including hunting and fishing. He's a few years older than me. He was a 4.0 student, and when it came to college decisions, he could've gone most anywhere, for any degree, but he went with his love...fisheries and wildlife. Got the degree, worked in various roles for about a decade OUTSIDE of Michigan because there were no jobs here, making very low pay, working long, hard hours. He loved the work, but at some point realized he would be poor the rest of his life. He came back to Michigan, and has worked in various "light industrial" factory jobs for years.
- me...not nearly as bright as my brother in HS, would've loved to get the F & W degree, but chose something where I could make a living...engineering. Worked my tail off my senior year of college interviewing all over, and started my first job 2 weeks out of college, making more than ANY of my friends, no matter what degree they had. Changed jobs a couple times, but have been with the same employer for almost 29 years. Eventually went back to get my masters (which was a "bucket list" item for me), and have made a great career. 

What my solid income, and stability in employment, has done for me is ALLOWED me to do what I love to do in my off time, namely hunt and fish, basically at will. Money or time off has never been an issue. My brother? Struggled his entire life for money and time off. 

Moral of the story is it's up to YOU to decide if you want to go with what you love to do, or if you want to be comfortable, because that particular field is not likely to give you both. 

I'll also echo what someone else said...be really careful about choosing a career based on what you love to do, because doing something as a career, and doing something for fun, are commpletely different things, and it could burn you out of the love of that activity. Case in point...I know several people who have been, or currently are, guides of one sort or another. Almost every one says they really don't love it anymore because it's work. I can report friends who are artists, that did it for fun, but when they tried it full time as a career they lost the drive. Lots of examples of that. So just be careful.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

I can echo that. I first mated for one (1) summer. I didn't fish my own boat, didn't take rides from others that year. Didn't go to the beach, didn't walk the piers, didn't want to see a boat, didn't want to be on water. Didn't want to deal with people, pick up a fillet knife, smell a fish. Didn't steelhead fish that winter, didn't even coho fish the next spring.

The good news was I really ramped up the duck hunting that fall!


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

Let me also add one compliment--one thing you are doing right is seeking out the advice of others, particularly older people. I wish I had done that more when I was in high school and college. The whole "take a job related to the outdoors" vs. "make good money to give you time and money to spend outdoors" is sort of a grass is greener on the other side type of thing. The grass is quite green on both sides, but there are big holes of doo doo you can step in on both sides of the hill.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Lamarsh said:


> Let me also add one compliment--one thing you are doing right is seeking out the advice of others, particularly older people. I wish I had done that more when I was in high school and college. The whole "take a job related to the outdoors" vs. "make good money to give you time and money to spend outdoors" is sort of a grass is greener on the other side type of thing. The grass is quite green on both sides, but there are big holes of doo doo you can step in on both sides of the hill.


Exactly! It's a choice most of us make at some point. The number of people I've known over the years who absolutely LOVE their work can be counted on one hand. Not that I'm saying that can't be the case, and those few people are very fortunate. But more often than not, "work" is a means to an end...a way of paying for the things you want, and the needs you have. If your wants and needs aren't all that high, then adjust your sights accordingly. However if you have expensive wants or needs, you'd better think twice. 

I've always said that I enjoy working, but it's still "work" not play, and having a choice, would I be working? Nope. It's a choice you make.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

just ducky said:


> Exactly! It's a choice most of us make at some point. The number of people I've known over the years who absolutely LOVE their work can be counted on one hand. Not that I'm saying that can't be the case, and those few people are very fortunate. But more often than not, "work" is a means to an end...a way of paying for the things you want, and the needs you have. If your wants and needs aren't all that high, then adjust your sights accordingly. However if you have expensive wants or needs, you'd better think twice.
> 
> I've always said that I enjoy working, but it's still "work" not play, and having a choice, would I be working? Nope. It's a choice you make.


i followed the do what you love option. i wish i woulda opted for the "do what makes you the most money and freedom of schedule" option.


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## SteelDealer316 (Jun 4, 2012)

I'm a F&W biologist near Grand Rapids. PM me if you want


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## BangBangBang (Mar 30, 2011)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> well bang your post was actually well thought out..give ya credit for that. hehe. Its actually not too far off from the inevitable....its just how fast does that happen...my lifetime? my kids lifetime..his kids lifetime? its really hard to say how long our addiction to credit will last....or when the system will implode.



Lol...thanks Kid. The reception was better than I imagined- I admit it sounds like every other conspiracy kook with a story.

And you are dead on- while I am and have been 100% certain of the outcome I described, it could still be years away. (I am not original, I found this stuff from others who began discussing it in the late 90's)

That is the reality and so I never encourage anyone to go outside their own comfort zone of understanding. Best to play the current game everyone knows and expects...for most people.

I will only say that the finale is close at hand and by close I mean I expect it within the next few years, highlighting the next 12-18 months. It almost fell apart in the late 70's, 87, late 90's, 2008. Last minute stick saves by the industrial worlds banks is all that has saved us till now. Will they save again in the upcoming crackup? We will see very soon. 
The trend is away from fixed or dirty exchange rates between countries to floating currencies world wide with a reserve asset. Debt will no longer be a reserve.

As this finishes, we will see the "gold price" go to near zero. We will get to experience a hyperinflation too but there's really a lot of good to come of that. It will be tough times for a while but the payout on the other side is awesome for all of us and as industry is rebuilt in this country, jobs will be bountiful. We will be a rebuilding country with lots of opportunity and because of this,even though I forgot to mention it yesterday, whoever suggested a job in the trades is smart cause real things and real jobs will come back to importance. We will become far more of a country that builds it's own products as opposed to importing cheap **** from China or some other emerging market.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

just ducky said:


> Exactly! It's a choice most of us make at some point. The number of people I've known over the years who absolutely LOVE their work can be counted on one hand. Not that I'm saying that can't be the case, and those few people are very fortunate. But more often than not, "work" is a means to an end...a way of paying for the things you want, and the needs you have. If your wants and needs aren't all that high, then adjust your sights accordingly. However if you have expensive wants or needs, you'd better think twice.
> 
> I've always said that I enjoy working, but it's still "work" not play, and having a choice, would I be working? Nope. It's a choice you make.


Right. One way I always like to put it, after I tell people that I enjoy what I do, is clarify that by saying if I hit the $300 million dollar jackpot I would not show up to work the next day. I'm not one of those people who claim they'd still have to work to keep them busy--I have PLENTY of things I like to do to keep me very very busy, and they have NOTHING to do with working :coolgleam


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## whitetailfreak8 (Nov 3, 2009)

Get an engineering degree....good money and they don't do squat just ask cronkdre


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## cronkdre (Sep 11, 2012)

whitetailfreak8 said:


> Get an engineering degree....good money and they don't do squat just ask cronkdre


Hey someone's gotta do it... Don't hate :evil:


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Get an engineering degree....good money and they don't do squat


Love watching the non-automotive engineers come over to the dark side and take a swing at it. They have a half life of about 4 months. I tell the new guys I'll learn their names if I see them come (next season).


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## EBAAS (Feb 9, 2009)

Most important things I've learned since being in the 'real world' for 10 years (automotive engineer):

1. Whether people believe college is a waste of time/money is their own opinion, however, a piece of paper will indeed open more doors/opportunities.
1a. Earning credits at a community college for a year or two is a SMART thing to do. Even better if there is one in the same town as the university (LCC in Lansing or MMCC in Mt.Pleasant). That way you can have the college experience but for way less money, then transfer for your junior/senior year(s).
2. An intership/co-op is a great thing. Gives you exposure, and if you're worth a damn you have a good shot at an offer from the company.
3. Network with people.
4. Don't ever burn any bridges with employers, no matter how much you 
dislike your boss(s) or work. You never know when you'll need a job and or references. I've witnessed this on numerous occasions.
5. Put yourself outside of your comfort zone once in a while, you'll be suprised what you can do. This builds confidence.


Good luck, I think it is commendable that you're seeking some real world advice..Counselors only know so much.


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## Urriah (Jul 26, 2013)

Lots of good advice here. Definitely get in touch with some actual FW professionals and get their opinions on it. They'll probably surprise you. If you do go that route, prepare to not have much money, but have a rewarding career.

I know a lot of guys who've gone the 'money and flexibility' route and they certainly seem to like it as well.


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## garrett18 (Dec 2, 2014)

Had no idea this thread would blow up this big lol. Thanks for all the opinions. I really appreciate it! 


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## duckaddict (Sep 23, 2014)

Or go get a teaching degree and find a job at Cummins....


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## Bux-n-Dux (Dec 18, 2009)

When people ask what I do for a living, I say "hunt,fish,camp,spend time with my family". Then I say to pay for that stuff, I work as an product design engineer in pursuit of starting my own company.

Just my $0.02: 1) Start out in a community college and crank out all the math, general science, composition and general classes you can. You pay a fraction of the price, smaller class sizes and can be virtually debt free after 2-3yrs of school. These schools are built to transfer credits to bigger schools. My degree from MSU doesn't mention that I took all my math,physics,chemistry at Delta College....that piece of paper is exactly the same as the guy that paid $500/credit hr for the same classes at MSU. The difference is i just didn't have the extra $40K of student loans he did. 

2) A technical degree (or a skilled trade) followed up with a business degree is the ultimate one-two punch in my opinion. The technical degrees got me the salary I wanted and hopefully the business degree (paid for by my former employer btw) will allow me the freedom to be my own boss some day.

3) Do everything you can to make yourself better everyday and create your own path towards the goals you set for yourself . The real world doesn't care about your excuses.

Best of luck to ya kid, sounds like you've got your head on straight. Make it happen.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> Get an engineering degree....good money and they don't do squat
> 
> 
> Love watching the non-automotive engineers come over to the dark side and take a swing at it. They have a half life of about 4 months. I tell the new guys I'll learn their names if I see them come (next season).


Engineering is one career that you can definitely find work in, most anywhere you want, and you will also make good, or sometimes fantastic, money. Mine's in Civil, and that discipline was great for someone who loves the outdoors. My first 15 or so years was working on construction projects from design to actual construction. Loved it. Eventually moved into administration (because that's what you're supposed to do), and there are days I miss the field. But then again, when it's 20 degrees, -10 wind chill, and there's a foot of snow on the ground, the nice cozy office isn't all that bad either :evilsmile

I would NEVER suggest that I could walk into one of your plants to do the auto job. I have friends in auto...not my cup of tea at all. I also have buds from college who are Mech or Elec discipline, and I would NEVER try to do their jobs either (and vice versa). 

One other lesson to be learned for someone young like yourself who likes the outdoor activities...I don't care which field you choose, but find a good employer, and stick with them. You notice I didn't say *great* employer. If you happen to find that, then great. But my opinion in today's economy is you will never be completely happy with ANY employer, but if you're getting 80% of your needs met with them, stick it out. Because time is your friend, and over time, your salary will increase exponentially, AS WILL your time off. And for those of us who like the outdoors, having adequate PAID time off is almost as important as salary...my two cents.


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## jonesy16 (Sep 19, 2011)

just ducky said:


> And for those of us who like the outdoors, having adequate PAID time off is almost as important as salary...my two cents.


...sick days, lots of sick days, I seem to be very sick when inclement weather rolls in during the fall months only


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Another solid career choice is nursing. Seriously! Can take that degree and work most anywhere, and make pretty decent money too. Right Jonesy?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

jonesy16 said:


> ...sick days, lots of sick days, I seem to be very sick when inclement weather rolls in during the fall months only


:lol::lol::lol: Yeah I loved it this fall when you were feeling the "marsh fever" coming on, or whatever you called it.


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## ahartz (Dec 28, 2000)

Great thread...2 things I want to offer some insight on...

I am a Supervisor with MDEQ in the wetland program. This is a job mostly managing people and thier desire to alter/impact these resources. Sure we are mapping wetlands, doing vegetation identification, hydrology analysis etc...but you HAVE TO BE ABLE TO talk to and persuade people to consider alternative site layouts, methods of installation of this and that utility etc...natural resource professionals are slowing learning that they have to engage thier stakeholders for $upport etc....Jobs with DNR/USFWS are very competetive. Talk with people that hold the postions today that one day you think you may want. Most pople who like thier jobs love talking about thier jobs. 

My 19 year old son is currently at Mich Tech/Mechanical Engineering. He already has a $17.00/hour signed contract for a summer internship summer 2015. last year as a first year mech eng. sutdent he had a 15.00/hr internship. Buddies going to MSU etc...just are not seeing these career related summer work opprotunites. These highly skilled jobs are very much in demand. As the production becomes more high tech the need for high skill vs.labor is becoming very evident. 

I also give a tip of the cap to any skilled trade, electrican, plumber etc...any thing that will ALWAYS have to be done by a skilled set of hands will always be in demand. ..my two .02 on all that...great thread....Andy


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

ahartz said:


> Great thread...2 things I want to offer some insight on...
> 
> I am a Supervisor with MDEQ in the wetland program. This is a job mostly managing people and thier desire to alter/impact these resources. Sure we are mapping wetlands, doing vegetation identification, hydrology analysis etc...but you HAVE TO BE ABLE TO talk to and persuade people to consider alternative site layouts, methods of installation of this and that utility etc...natural resource professionals are slowing learning that they have to engage thier stakeholders for $upport etc....Jobs with DNR/USFWS are very competetive. Talk with people that hold the postions today that one day you think you may want. Most pople who like thier jobs love talking about thier jobs.
> 
> ...


Great points Andy! And I would also like to tip my hat to those in the skilled trades  I didn't mean to come across before like a college education is somehow superior to those who don't have it. Again, it's a choice we all make. Most of those skilled labor jobs cannot, and will never be done by a computer or a robot, and WE ALL need them...plumbers, auto mechanics, carpenters, etc. One of my best friends was a straight A student in HS...could've gone to any number of colleges for almost any discipline. He always loved auto mechanics, and that's what he chose to do. He has been very successful, and now owns several branches of a major chain. So there are choices we all make


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

ahartz said:


> My 19 year old son is currently at Mich Tech/Mechanical Engineering. He already has a $17.00/hour signed contract for a summer internship summer 2015. last year as a first year mech eng. sutdent he had a 15.00/hr internship.


I can attest to this comment. my company hires ME interns every year for the summer. we hire alot of interns from tech. I was recently looking at the group from last summer that worked in my area. 4 out of 10 were from tech. I didnt see any other college that had 2 on the list. the kids from tech are usually the ones that get a second summer if they want it and it seems we hire a lot of their kids full time after graduation.



_Posted from Michigan-sportsman.com App for Android_


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

1). People not smart enough to see what classes transfer prior to taking them at a CC get what they deserve. Like Dan said, it is listed pretty clearly and if you r confused call and talk to someone. I question if someone is smart enough to be in college if they are not smart enough to understand transfer credits.

2). People need to view college like any other investment with ROI. Need a 100k U of M masters for a 30k a year job, bad idea.

3) people need to weigh their post job spending expectations against what the career they chkse will pay. Hard to really love your job if it can't financially support your expectations as far as home, car, travel. Much easier to like a job if it pays enough to support the lifestyle you want.

4). Never be too proud to seek advice, especially if you are taking loans. I don't know any 18 year olds capable of understanding the implications of taking on 100k in debt.


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## TheBearFan89 (Oct 2, 2012)

TSS Caddis said:


> 1). People not smart enough to see what classes transfer prior to taking them at a CC get what they deserve. Like Dan said, it is listed pretty clearly and if you r confused call and talk to someone. I question if someone is smart enough to be in college if they are not smart enough to understand transfer credits.
> 
> 2). People need to view college like any other investment with ROI. Need a 100k U of M masters for a 30k a year job, bad idea.
> 
> ...


All this ^ = great advice!!!

I can relate to your first point. Went to community college for 5 semesters to get my pre-requisites out of the way for the sole intention of pursuing a degree in Athletic Training at CMU. When I transferred i met with a program advisor who told me their program isn't very "transfer friendly." Meaning I would spend another 6 years in that program alone! Luckily I found another great program at CMU with one of the best rankings in the field, in the US.

Community college is WAY cheaper, so if you can SUCCESSFULLY transfer from a com. college to a university then do it. Some com. colleges do offer bachelors degrees tho.


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## ahartz (Dec 28, 2000)

check out the letter from the editor in this months DU magazine. 

Echo's my earlier comments about managing people vs. managing resources....Andy


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## Chooch (Oct 24, 2008)

Didn't read every single response, so I won't give my 2 cents on either college (MSU or LSSU) because I'm sure what I would say has already been said. However, I attended both LSSU and MSU (currently), for a degree in Fisheries & Wildlife Management. LSSU was awesome, but overall I like MSU's program more (minus the thesis part, or lack thereof). Anyway, if you have any specific questions GARRETT, feel free to PM me. 

Again, I've been part of both programs and I'm always willing to help.


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## Oger (Aug 28, 2008)

Actually I wanted to be a wildlife biologist but couldn't get past the possibility of having a degree and not being able to get a job that paid enough to raise a family and do my hobbies. So I went a different route and took something with a pension and twenty five years and out. Yes I'm out and retired now but those 25 years were miserable. In hindsight I which I would of just followed my passion and probably wouldn't even be interested in the thought of retirement.


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## Aukebay123 (Sep 9, 2003)

Oger said:


> Actually I wanted to be a wildlife biologist but couldn't get past the possibility of having a degree and not being able to get a job that paid enough to raise a family and do my hobbies. So I went a different route and took something with a pension and twenty five years and out. Yes I'm out and retired now but those 25 years were miserable. In hindsight I which I would of just followed my passion and probably wouldn't even be interested in the thought of retirement.


I have many friends that made pretty good money but didn't like their jobs. As time went on being a marine biologist keep paying more and more. I see no reason to retire when I really have fun at work. people pay big bucks to come up here and do what I get paid to do. Many friends retired so they could just have fun at all.


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## garrett18 (Dec 2, 2014)

To the guys who were talking about engineering, do any of you do Biosystems & Agrictural engineering or know someone who does? MSU offers a program in it, and I was wondering if it would be a good route to take. I think it would be interesting to work with Biofuel and renewable resources.


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## JoeJoeFoster (Dec 12, 2013)

Always wanted to be a DNR officer. Even a park ranger would be pretty sweet. The thought of working outside with wildlife day in and day out is very appealing. The only downside to this and why I personally did not pursue the field was simply because during hunting season is your busy time. I got a couple real good friends who are DNR officers up north in Emmet county where I'm from and they get to do little hunting during deer season. Just another aspect you might want to think about.


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## T1basser (Oct 11, 2004)

I've got an FW degree from Michigan State. There is no doubt it is a risky degree to pursue because jobs are limited. A lot of positives and a few negatives. I currently work in Muskegon on Lake Michigan, mostly with the food web. Things are great now but it took some time after college to be an employee vs working on projects funded by grants. That can be kind of stressful. 

While in school getting involved in different things to advance and diversify your skill set is important. As is building a reputation and quality references. There are always lot's of opportunities to volunteer. Don't get locked into one specific thing either. The more diverse you are the better off you are.

You might also want to note that jobs in this field aren't everywhere. If there are no potential employers in the area you want to settle down in, I wouldn't bother pursuing it. 

It can be a really rewarding and fun career if you end up in the right spot. If you have any specific questions don't hesitate to shoot me a pm.


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