# Proposed Hunter Orange Changes



## bradymsu (Mar 3, 2008)

Rep. Joel Sheltrown is working with the DNR to develop changes to the use of hunter orange. Rep. Sheltrown is interested in eliminating the hunter orange requirement for predator hunting and for hunting deer with a crossbow during the archery deer season and for hunting bear with a crossbow. The DNR has also proposed requiring the use of hunter orange on blinds to take deer with a firearm. Comments and feedback to the proposed changes would be appreciated.

Under the new language (in bold), the hunter orange requirement would:

"Not apply to a person engaged in the taking of deer with a bow or *crossbow* during archery deer season, a person taking bear with a bow or *crossbow*, or a person engaged in the taking of turkey or migratory birds other than woodcock, *a person engaging in the sport of falconry, or while a person is stationary and in the act of hunting coyote or fox*."

*A person shall not make use of a blind to take deer with a firearm unless hunter orange is visible on the exterior surface of the blind from all sides."*


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

bradymsu said:


> .........A person shall not make use of a blind to take deer with a firearm unless hunter orange is visible on the exterior surface of the blind from all sides."[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]


If the blind is on the ground, sounds good. We already do that. If it's an elevated box blind, not gonna happen. At least not on my property.

L & O


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

the hunter orange on the blind is a great idea. i cannot believe that the dnr hasn't come up with this rule when they allowed pop-up blinds. at the hunt club in which i belong to it has been a rule : you must have at least 4 square feet of hunter orange/camo hunter orange on your blind and must be visible from all sides. this is on 14,000 acres of private land and we have no problems with it, well,at least i don't. saftey is number one and with those camo pop-ups you just aren't going to see them when shooting at deer without some orange.
on another note, is this going before the legislature or the nrc?


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## bradymsu (Mar 3, 2008)

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI said:


> on another note, is this going before the legislature or the nrc?


This would be going before the Legislature. The existing hunter orange requirements are in statutory law and the NRC does not have the ability to amend statutory law.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

How much orange are you suggesting?


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## ArrowFlinger (Sep 18, 2000)

The few time I have used a pop-up, I have draped may vest over the top so it would be visible. (yes I still kept my hat on inside to remain legal).

No way am I going to be concealed like that without attempting to indicate to another hunter that I am there.


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

On private property I wear hunters orange to and from my blind, once there is comes off. I would prefer to see something to that effect archerys hunter would also wear orange while on the ground moving as well. obviously thats when you would most likely be mistaken for game, while at ground level moving.


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

Would camo orange be acceptable as it is for hunters, on blinds?


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## big show (Sep 10, 2007)

I knew all of those damaged construction signs that I have been stockpiling would come in handy someday! 

For Sale: Marine grade plywood covered with reflective orange sheeting. Extremely weather resistant. Guaranteed not to fade. Many sizes to chose from. Camo also available. :lol::evil::lol:


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## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

Orange on blind?? Does that mean when couple tree limbs/stumps are maneuvered to form a blind it also needs orange on it?? Have to wait for deer cops to decide.


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## Spartan88 (Nov 14, 2008)

Hunting blinds on private property should be exempt of the hunter orange rule.


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## ArrowFlinger (Sep 18, 2000)

Spartan88 said:


> Hunting blinds on private property should be exempt of the hunter orange rule.


Why? Do private land hunters never get shot? Seems to me the only time I hear of someone getting shot is when a grandpa shoot his grandson on the family farm.

As for the earlier post about wearing orange while walking during archery season. I don't think it is necessary tobe a law. But when I am out, when the muzzlelaoders are out. I wear an orange hat while walking in the afternoon. Morning and night I always wear the red LED light. White lights spook the animals, but my experience with red is they just watch you walk by and usually just stay there.


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## Spartan88 (Nov 14, 2008)

ArrowFlinger said:


> Why? Do private land hunters never get shot? Seems to me the only time I hear of someone getting shot is when a grandpa shoot his grandson on the family farm.


I dont hunt a family farm nor is Grandpa still on this side of the sod. I'm 1 mile off the nearest county road and anyone who wanders through the property will be stopped by several hunters before they get to my stand. Nobody I hunt with wanders the woods during firearm season. And when someone is retrieving a deer everyone knows about it.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

bradymsu said:


> "Not apply to a person engaged in the taking of deer with a bow or *crossbow* during archery deer season, a person taking bear with a bow or *crossbow*, or a person engaged in the taking of turkey or migratory birds other than woodcock, *a person engaging in the sport of falconry, or while a person is stationary and in the act of hunting coyote or fox*."
> 
> *A person shall not make use of a blind to take deer with a firearm unless hunter orange is visible on the exterior surface of the blind from all sides."*


I'd like to see bobcat added to that.


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## phyrelin (Jun 14, 2007)

Hunter orange regulations are BS... If you are hunting with a bunch of yahoos then by common sense you should wear orange. If you are not worried about getting shot at or just dont care i beleive it should be up to you. I've seen many people walking through the woods wearing full camo and for some strange reason I've never seen one that looked enough like a deer to shoot at. Then again there is the occasion where someone shoots a loose cow thinking it is a deer. Maybee they should be required to wear orange as well. BTW I do think that hunting upland game w/ others is a good time to wear orange, Ask dick cheny. But i dont think that the government should require you to do anything of the sort. This is just like seatbelt/helmet laws. smart ppl have helmets and live through the crash. Dummies get there head smashed to bits.. There decision. Too bad for them.


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## ArrowFlinger (Sep 18, 2000)

Spartan88 said:


> I dont hunt a family farm nor is Grandpa still on this side of the sod. I'm 1 mile off the nearest county road and anyone who wanders through the property will be stopped by several hunters before they get to my stand. Nobody I hunt with wanders the woods during firearm season. And when someone is retrieving a deer everyone knows about it.


You are safe, but what about your hunting partner that gets shot in the back of the head because some bafoon saw a deer cross the road and he followed it in and took a shot, but missed because it was too far away.

Your putting your life and your friends life in the hands of other people. Why wouldn't you want to do everything you can to increase the odds in your favor to survive. Yes the odds of you getting shot are 1 in some big number, but you only need to be shot dead once.


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

''Hunter orange regulations are BS... If you are hunting with a bunch of yahoos then by common sense you should wear orange. If you are not worried about getting shot at or just dont care i beleive it should be up to you. I've seen many people walking through the woods wearing full camo and for some strange reason I've never seen one that looked enough like a deer to shoot at. Then again there is the occasion where someone shoots a loose cow thinking it is a deer. Maybee they should be required to wear orange as well. BTW I do think that hunting upland game w/ others is a good time to wear orange, Ask dick cheny. But i dont think that the government should require you to do anything of the sort. This is just like seatbelt/helmet laws. smart ppl have helmets and live through the crash. Dummies get there head smashed to bits.. There decision. Too bad for them''

the last part of your post sums it up pretty good
free country my *****


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## Spartan88 (Nov 14, 2008)

ArrowFlinger said:


> You are safe, but what about your hunting partner that gets shot in the back of the head because some bafoon saw a deer cross the road and he followed it in and took a shot, but missed because it was too far away.
> 
> Your putting your life and your friends life in the hands of other people. Why wouldn't you want to do everything you can to increase the odds in your favor to survive. Yes the odds of you getting shot are 1 in some big number, but you only need to be shot dead once.


Nobody in my camp or the camps in a one mile radius are going to be trespassing while hunting. If they have to come on the property they wont be hunting when they do. 

This orange proposal is just a b.s. feel good measure from a Representative that I mostly agree with. Cant keep them happy 100% of the time for sure, but this is just silly.


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## jdawg240 (Oct 1, 2007)

It would be very tuff for us to figure out how to make our 16 foot tower blinds orange.....Do they sell Hunter orange PAINT???? Im not evn sure how we even paint one of them its so high????????


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

''A person shall not make use of a blind to take deer with a firearm unless hunter orange is visible on the exterior surface of the blind from all sides."

brady msu, I personally beleive this statement could cause the hole ball of wax to get flushed down the toliet.

Look at the friction it has caused here with only a few posters, guilty myself
I don't mean to pee on your party, just my 2 cents


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

I can't understand what your not getting, you said it in your first sentence. If I have to paint orange on my ground blinds then I would rather the law not change and the cross bow guys can wear orange for archery season. Why should one group of hunters have to give ANYTHING up to please another group.

As shallow as that may sound, just my 2 cents, I'm not going to say anymore, you don't have to agree or disagree, just want you to understand where I was coming from.

Thanks brady were good


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## bumpbottom (Jan 3, 2006)

Makes a lot of sense to me........I will paint my blinds on private property so the tresspassers can find them easier in the dark to hunt them when I'm not there


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

bradymsu said:


> *A person shall not make use of a blind to take deer with a firearm unless hunter orange is visible on the exterior surface of the blind from all sides."*


What about the hunter who uses a bow during one of the various firearm seasons? Isn't the DNR concerned about a hunter with a high powered rifle not being able to see a blind with a bow hunter inside?


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Hunter orange saves lives. Anyone have the stats on deer hunter shooting fatalities pre and post the hunter orange law?

I believe the orange requirement for predator hunting came in a few years back when a young boy was shot in the head while coyote hunting with family/friends. I believe he walked up while the others were hunting and just the top of his head was mistaken.

A better rule for predator hunting might be that orange is required while "in transport" and could be removed when sitting.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

This is from Texas...

"Hunter or blaze orange vests and caps have reduced hunter judgment mistakes by more than 50 percent in states requiring it to be worn," according to Steve Hall, education director at TPWD. (Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept.)

Here's another paste of note...

QUESTION: Hunting-related shooting incidents are already rare. Can hunter orange really make that big a difference?


ANSWER: First, remember that one of the reasons that hunting injuries are rare is that most hunters wear hunter orange. Looking at the numbers scientifically, there are two valid ways to measure the actual effects of hunter orange on huntingrelated shooting incidents. The first is comparing injury rates before and after mandating orange on the same turf. Yet even this has problems, because other factors can change from year to year, too. The second method is the best test&#8212;comparing injury rates of hunters who wear orange with those who don&#8217;t wear orange in the same time and place. Calculate that you need detailed information about each hunting-related shooting incident (HRSI), AND a good measure of the percent of hunters who do and don&#8217;t wear hunter orange. The problem with this is that it&#8217;s not easy to find good statistics of how many hunters in the population don&#8217;t use hunter orange, especially if the law requires it. In New York, there are close to 700,000 hunters, and there are no laws telling them what to wear. As a result, you can expect honest answers when you ask what they wear to hunt. We already talked about the percentage of hunters who wear hunter orange. Here&#8217;s what we found out about the differences in the injury rates of the two sub-populations of hunters&#8212;orange versus no orange.

Before and After Data: Every state that requires hunter orange reported a decrease in injuries when the orange requirement was enacted. That&#8217;s no surprise. Along with the color requirement, there is generally a lot of public information about hunting safety, so it&#8217;s hard to separate how much of the reduction was due to the direct effects of hunter orange and how much was due to more cautious hunters. An indication of this is that many states and provinces see a reduction in all kinds of hunting injuries&#8212;not just the visibility-related ones (victim mistaken for game and victim in the line of fire when shooting at game). The important thing is that hunter orange works, but some might argue that a strong public information campaign is responsible for a big part of the safety improvement. *One experience, however, left no doubt about how much hunter orange was directly responsible for reducing injuries. Prior to mandating hunter orange statewide, the state of Maine did a landmark five-year trial in one heavily hunted county. Maine required hunters in York County to wear hunter orange starting in 1967. Looking at only those injuries that could be directly affected by hunter orange, Maine found that York County had 41 percent of the state&#8217;s visibility related incidents during the five years before the one-county orange requirement, but only 23 percent in the five years after.* Even if some of the Maine hunters outside York County got the safety message and wore orange, the County where virtually all hunters wore it is where the big injury reduction occurred.

Comparing Injury Rates : Orange Versus No Orange&#8212; The best proof is counting visibility-related injuries and knowing what each victim was wearing, as well as how many hunters wore orange and how many didn&#8217;t. That allows us to compare injury rates of hunters who did not wear orange against those who did. Adding up these simple counts over a period of years gave New York clear, quantified answers about the effects of hunter orange. The results were part of a 1994 report using HRSI records from 1989 through 1993. See chart (left) for the results.

DRAMATIC UPDATE: Short messages summarizing one important point are more effective than mountains of data in terms of affecting hunter behavior. New York hunter education staff combined the big game and small game figures about hunter orange (even though it is combining apples and oranges) to coin the phrase that &#8220;Hunter orange keeps you seven times safer.&#8221; More recently, the figures about big game hunting fatalities in New York have provided an even more dramatic example to urge hunters to wear hunter orange, even if the law does not require it. This year, the New York State Hunting and Trapping Regulations Guide and news releases feature the following message. &#8220;Don&#8217;t be a victim! Four out of five NY big game hunters wear hunter orange. Since 1992, none of them have been mistaken for deer and killed. But 18 hunters who did not wear hunter orange were mistaken for deer and killed.&#8221; Let&#8217;s hope hunters get the message. Better yet, let&#8217;s deliver it!

COMPARING INJURY RATES
BIG GAME HUNTING
(excluding bowhunting and muzzleloading seasons)

VISIBILITY-RELATED FATAL INJURIES ALL INJURIES
Clothes Hunters No. Rate Ratio No. Rate Ratio
Orange 2,787,866 1 0.04 1.0 12 0.43 1.0
No Orange 653,944 9 1.38 38.4 35 5.35 12.4


ALL 2-PARTY FATAL INJURIES ALL INJURIES
Clothes Hunters No. Rate Ratio No. Rate Ratio
Orange 2,787,866 2 0.07 1.0 36 1.29 1.0
No Orange 653,944 18 2.75 38.4 65 9.94 7.7


SMALL GAME HUNTING
(excluding turkey hunting and waterfowl hunting)

VISIBILITY-RELATED FATAL INJURIES ALL INJURIES
Clothes Hunters No. Rate Ratio No. Rate Ratio
Orange 1,630,369 0 0.00 1.0 8 0.49 1.0
No Orange 957,518 3 0.31 infinite 30 3.13 6.4


ALL 2-PARTY FATAL INJURIES ALL INJURIES
Clothes Hunters No. Rate Ratio No. Rate Ratio
Orange 1,630,369 0 0.00 1.0 25 1.53 1.0
No Orange 957,518 3 0.31 infinite 79 8.25 5.4


NOTES:
&#8226; Hunters generally do not wear hunter orange for bowhunting and muzzleloading, or for turkey and waterfowl hunting, so those figures were not included.
&#8226; Hunter numbers and injuries are cumulative, counted and added each year.
&#8226; Rate means injuries per 100,000 hunters in the category
&#8226; *Ratio &#8211; Example: A big game hunter not wearing hunter orange was 7.7 times more likely to be shot by another hunter in the regular firearms season in New York between 1989 and 1993.*
&#8226; Differences in fatality rates for small game hunting are not statistically significant (P>0.05), due to the extremely small number of fatal incidents.

The figures above were part of a more general 1994 report entitled &#8220;Hunting Accidents in New York: Their Causes and Prevention.&#8221; The report did not suggest that the victim of an HRSI is responsible for being shot. The figures were reported to demonstrate the effectiveness of hunter orange as a tool to help avoid being a victim of another&#8217;s mistake.

Similar results for 1989-1995 data were published in the Center for Disease Control and Prevention&#8217;s &#8220;Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report&#8221; of October 18, 1996, but without injury rates. The report can be downloaded from www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00044112.htm.


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## Sailor (Jan 2, 2002)

I forgot who said it - but I like the quote : "It is my belief that Hunter Orange
has saved the lives of far more Deer than Deer hunters"


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

In a study done from 1992 through 2001 in New York State, about 120,000 big game hunters did not wear Hunter (or Blaze) Orange during the regular firearms seasons for deer and bear. Of these, 18 hunters were mistaken for big game and killed. During the same time period of the study, approximately 580,000 hunters did wear Hunter Orange, and none were mistaken for big game and killed. 




In Wisconsin, forty-four hunters were killed and 57 were injured during the 1908 deer season, which included only about 20,000 hunters.


Another tid-bit...

The use of blaze or hunter orange has been shown to reduce vision related accidents in states that require its use. The use of blaze orange clothing could decrease the number of vision related accidents even further. Its continued use is recommend for all hunting activity except possibly for migratory bird hunting. In most cases, the number of accidents could be reduced by over 50 percent if vision related accidents could be eliminated.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Sailor, whoever that was doesn't know much about deer and deer hunting. IMHO


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## Downsea (Apr 12, 2005)

"Heck the blind portion of the bill was the DNR's idea, so the critique is more than welcome"

Brady... did this go to far? It's April 1st right?


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## bradymsu (Mar 3, 2008)

Downsea said:


> "Heck the blind portion of the bill was the DNR's idea, so the critique is more than welcome"
> 
> Brady... did this go to far?


Do you mean that line or the proposed requirement for blinds?

That line was tongue in cheek. :evilsmile

I don't know if the proposed requirement for blinds goes too far. That's what we're trying to determine. Opinions, so far, seem mixed.


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## PWood (Aug 6, 2004)

tommy-n said:


> I can't understand what your not getting, you said it in your first sentence. If I have to paint orange on my ground blinds then I would rather the law not change and the cross bow guys can wear orange for archery season. Why should one group of hunters have to give ANYTHING up to please another group.
> 
> As shallow as that may sound, just my 2 cents, I'm not going to say anymore, you don't have to agree or disagree, just want you to understand where I was coming from.
> 
> Thanks brady were good


tommy-n, These are two separate issues. You will not have to put orange on your blind just because the legislature votes that crossbow hunters do not have to wear orange. You will only have to put orange on your blind if and only if that is what is passed by the legislature. The two are not connected! As said before, the hunter orange on blinds is a safety regulation suggested by the DNR and has nothing to do with crossbows or the laws regulate them.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Some type of of orange on enclosed camo tent blinds during firearms deer season would make sense to me.
A wooden box blind is easy to see. A realtree camo tent blind is not.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

Pinefarm said:


> Some type of of orange on enclosed camo tent blinds during firearms deer season would make sense to me.
> A wooden box blind is easy to see. A realtree camo tent blind is not.


THE RATIONALE for having that 4 foot square orange on our pop-ups was if someone were to move their blind from a known location to an unknown location it would become visible to the people who normally hunt that area.(private property). i see no reason for orange on a treestand, an elevated hunting blind or a ground blind. with the first 2 blinds they are above any shooting zone, with the ground blind that person already has to wear orange(if he/she doesn't then so be it, get shot). but a pop-up is a whole different story. you will not see anything inside that blind until you walk right up and look into it, thats the reason we use them *****to hide*****. i have had deer look right into my pop-up to see what in the hell was in there laughing at them. it really is funny watching them deer walking up and trying to look into the pop-up.:lol:
whether it becomes law or not i'll always put camo orange on my pop-up. that way, if some idiot does shoot towards me he'll understand why his teeth are now on the butt of my rifle.:evilsmile


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

Pinefarm said:


> Some type of of orange on enclosed camo tent blinds during firearms deer season would make sense to me.
> A wooden box blind is easy to see. A realtree camo tent blind is not.


Being a small game hunter out in the woods in Oct. I think all the bow hunters should have to wear Hunter Orange so I can see them & not shoot them. I would feel terrible if I shot one because he was hidden and I didn't see him.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

I say require it or don't based on season. I don't think it makes any sense to have some hunters in the woods with orange on, and some not. Grouse, woodcock and rabbits share the same seasons and the same habitat as deer. As I mentioned, I've nearly tripped over some well hidden bow hunters just this year. Tying an orange ribbon around your ground blind is not going to scare off any deer and it might just save your life.

For the record, hunters using bows during firearms season ARE CURRENTLY REQUIRED to wear orange.

KW


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI said:


> i see no reason for orange on a treestand, an elevated hunting blind or a ground blind. with the first 2 blinds they are above any shooting zone...


...Unless I'm shooting at an airborne target like a grouse or woodcock...


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

The potential issue with orange not being required in a treestand is that one man's elevation is another's plane of sight, if in any rolling hills or ridges, which is often prefered deer country. 

FWIW, camo blaze orange is maybe the best bowhunting "camo" when hunting late season hardwoods. It's a fantastic skyline camo. I've used it for years when bowhunting late season in oaks and hardwoods. I've killed a bunch of deer with that outfit, including my 2nd best Michigan buck, and never ever had a deer notice me in the least.

Too many guys use their blobby dark camo when bowhunting late season up in a big leafless maple or oak with 70% leaf drop and they look like a giant black bear up there in the stand.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Leader, 
Since small game hunting is a close range affair, bowhunters can whistle at small game hunters as they get close. Squirrel hunters with a .22 don't walk and shoot like deer hunters do. A squirrel hunter with a .22 will be wearing orange and he'll have to walk in on any bowhunter and sit down infront of him. And on the rare occasion they have a squirrel dog, they'll be standing under any tree a bowhunter wold be in.

The difference between small game hunting and deer hunting is the power and range of the common projectile and in area's with antlerless tags, a hunter may not take the time to identify a target like other hunters have to do.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

k9wernet said:


> ...Unless I'm shooting at an airborne target like a grouse or woodcock...


i can catorgorically guarantee you i'll see/hear you/ your dog/others in your party long before you see me. i know how to talk and tell you---you who i am over here. i also hunt the ever elusive thunderbird and timberdoddle and have never in 40 years ever even come close to shooting another hunter in any scenario. it's called saftey, identify your target and beyond before you pull mr. trigger, not that complicated. but with the pop-up blinds, it makes it, almost a default that hunter orange or camo orange be mandated way to many chances of not being seen even when you look right at them. especially if you hunt those little babies correctly and by that i mean you brush them out real good so as to breakup their outline.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Are all the trailers in Lake county going to have to have orange siding?


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

:lol::lol: They only shoot out of their trailer kitchen windows after dark, so no orange is required. :lol:


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

Pinefarm said:


> Leader,
> Since small game hunting is a close range affair, bowhunters can whistle at small game hunters as they get close. Squirrel hunters with a .22 don't walk and shoot like deer hunters do. A squirrel hunter with a .22 will be wearing orange and he'll have to walk in on any bowhunter and sit down infront of him. And on the rare occasion they have a squirrel dog, they'll be standing under any tree a bowhunter wold be in.
> 
> The difference between small game hunting and deer hunting is the power and range of the common projectile and in area's with antlerless tags, a hunter may not take the time to identify a target like other hunters have to do.


But I hunt tough squirrels, I need buckshot or my 30-06.
All those hidden bow hunters scare me.


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

PWood said:


> tommy-n, These are two separate issues. You will not have to put orange on your blind just because the legislature votes that crossbow hunters do not have to wear orange. You will only have to put orange on your blind if and only if that is what is passed by the legislature. The two are not connected! As said before, the hunter orange on blinds is a safety regulation suggested by the DNR and has nothing to do with crossbows or the laws regulate them.


thanks p-wood, no wonder Brady could not understand where I was coming from:lol:

All that bitching for nothing

I still like my idea I have about everyone wearing orange to and from the stand, but once on stand you can take it off. It's just common sense thats when a accident would most likely happen.

anyhow thanks for clearing that up, I had a couple busch lights, it's all good now


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## Downsea (Apr 12, 2005)

Sorry Brady, really. With that line I thought it was going to turn out to be a April fools day joke.
It is the mobile hunters resposibility to wear orange in order to be seen by other hunters as he moves about. A resposibility to themself. A stationary hunter can see that orange movment plainly. What happend to the hunters resposibility to knowing what he's shooting at and where that shot is going? The hunter should know his environment and game, including overlapping seasons such as bow and small game. A bow hunter isn't going to shoot at a partidge hunter, he's going to whistle or yell at them. If a bird hunter shoots a tree stand then he sure shouldn't be out there either. How many bird hunters shoot at what they just perceive to be movement? I sure never have. Has there been a big problem with blinds being shot? Sounds like just more liberal, please take care of us law making. It would make the CO's job of locating where you are simpler and that I might go along with to a point with regards to their safety. 
Hunter visibility, safety orange, and firearms are simple to understand.

Man was I late with this. Back to work.


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## lostmale (Dec 28, 2003)

BS 
The law is fine the way it is. How many hunters have been shot while in a blind. I say if you feel safer with the orange on your blind put it on there but don't make it a law.There are places I hunt where I don't feel safe no matter how much orange I have on and places where all I have is an orange hat. The amount of orange if any should be left up for me to decide. What next mandating safety harness's? More hunters are hurt and killed by not having safety harness's on while hunting from a tree stands than being shot. There is no law mandating that and that is fine with me. I hook up to a safety line from the ground up that is my choice. The human race can not evolve if we keep mandating laws to help protect the people who can not make sound choices.


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## Critter (Mar 3, 2006)

Orange on blinds/treestands is not a measure I would appreciate.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Strobe beanies should be required!


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I could go along with a small amount of orange on pop-up blinds in firearm season.

Maybe you could slip in full inclusion for the rest of the state without hunters orange.


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## dja05 (Nov 10, 2008)

The last thing I want to do is draw attention to my blind from roadhunters and everybody else driving down the road. I regularly leave my heater, backpack, cooler with snacks and pop, bino's, and calls in my blind that I went to great lengths to disguise from view. Now you want me to throw up a flag to announce when I'm there and when I'm not. No thanks, I'll wear it on my person but that's as far as it goes for me.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

dja05 said:


> The last thing I want to do is draw attention to my blind from roadhunters and everybody else driving down the road. I regularly leave my heater, backpack, cooler with snacks and pop, bino's, and calls in my blind that I went to great lengths to disguise from view. Now you want me to throw up a flag to announce when I'm there and when I'm not. No thanks, I'll wear it on my person but that's as far as it goes for me.


well if you're hunting that close to the road you may wish to triple your life insurance so the misses and kids have something after you get shot by some roadhunters. why in the world would you knowingly put your life at risk like that


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I agree 100% with Swampbuck. A small amount of orange on a pop up blind would be a good thing. It doesn't have to be huge. Some camo fish net from the army surplus store with a 4"x6" orange posted sign on all sides would be enough.

The issue with pop up's is, they are legal on public land where wood blinds are not. So, a random guy could hunt a public land spot in firearms season on Nov.15 all day, leaning up against a tree, where he's looked at every "stump deer" all day, only to return in the same pre-dawn location again and there could be a totally camo'd up blind 150-200 yards away. As daylight breaks, if there was a normal guy sitting there with orange on, he'd see him. But with the new popularity of camo pop up blinds, he'd have no clue he's there. 

And likely, being 200 yards away, a guy in a pop up wouldn't announce his pressence. 

The key thing is, the state has a responsibilty to keep recreational hunters safe. If this rule saves even one hunter, it's worth it, because admit it or not, deer are not spooked by hunter orange itself.

I've had countless deer walk right past me in orange if my background was broken up and I've been busted in the finest wool camo-camo when my background was not. 

The fact is, orange saves lives in firearms seasons and it doesn't have a negative effect on recreational hunting. And the point to remember is, even if you wrongly think that orange will hurt your hunting, so what if a deer or two maybe busts you because you're out in the wide open with orange on? I assume you have friends and loved ones that just assume every other guy out there with a high powered centerfire rifle knows exactly where you're at.
My .02


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

Wood blinds can be on public land as long as you abide by the placement and removal dates along with owners name on it... ......


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## hda31 (Nov 21, 2006)

why can't the government let people decide for themselves what they want to do? We are all grown ups here, if you want to be safer (AND let everyone in the world know where you are sitting), then put orange on your blind, if you don't, then don't put any on there...people should be careful either way...like we've been doing the past 50 years... I'm so sick of the government figuring out new ways to regulate us...we're Americans and we can make our own decisions!

Sorry, but I'm blowin off a little steam, cuz this reminds me of all the regulations our federal government is going to be trying to do to us these next couple years


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

hda31 said:


> why can't the government let people decide for themselves what they want to do? We are all grown ups here, if you want to be safer (AND let everyone in the world know where you are sitting), then put orange on your blind, if you don't, then don't put any on there...people should be careful either way...like we've been doing the past 50 years... I'm so sick of the government figuring out new ways to regulate us...we're Americans and we can make our own decisions!
> 
> Sorry, but I'm blowin off a little steam, cuz this reminds me of all the regulations our federal government is going to be trying to do to us these next couple years


Since FAR MORE people are injured falling out of trees.... All archers should be required to wear ORANGE HELMETS while hunting. 
If wecan just save ONE, it will be worth it.


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## Zarathustra (Oct 5, 2005)

I am all for having hunter orange on a pop-up blind on the ground. It isn't gonna hurt anything, even on private land.

But when we start talking about having hunter orange on elevated blinds, it seems excessive. We allow fully camoflauged bow hunters in treestands. And we know that they take some risk of getting shot by small game hunters. Are we going to force bow-hunters to wear orange for that reason also?

Also, consider natural blinds. I do a lot of still hunting, where I periodically may sit in a blowdown. Is that a blind? Do I have to drape some orange over the branches on all sides? Seems excessive in that sense also.


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## hda31 (Nov 21, 2006)

Leader, you got it, but maybe we should add all orange high jump mats at the base of your tree, so that way we save them all!


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

As long as my tax dollars never go to a guy on lifelong medicare because he "decided" he didn't want to wear a safety harness in a treestand or blaze orange on Nov. 15, I'm cool with that. 
It's like Harley riders that don't like helmets. That's cool if you don't want a helmet. But when you get a closed head injury, your family gets the whole bill, not the taxpayer. 
Freedom of choice isn't always free.


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## dja05 (Nov 10, 2008)

It's not that I am that worried about getting shot from a roadhunter, it's that I'm worried I will be replacing equipment due to theft. If they are roadhunting what makes you believe they will be all around honest poeple?:sad: I hunt in the rifle zone in central michigan and there are plenty of open fields where road hunters patrol. I also hunt on private property where my blind can't be watched 27/7. I purposly did not put a lock on my blind because when I'm not there other family members use it and I believe if I had a lock, someone would probably just do more damage to the blind to get in if they wanted in bad enough. That being said, the blind I'm reffering to is an elevated box blind that is 14 ft to the floor. It is permanate and on private property, no need for hunters orange unless someone is raindeer hunting nearby.


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## hda31 (Nov 21, 2006)

Pinefarm, i think everyone would agree with that, but the hard part is getting the knuckleheads in office to agree, and that would require NOT raising taxes on something, so it'll be tough!:rant:


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

BRADYMSU 
*****A person shall not make use of a blind to take deer with a firearm unless hunter orange is visible on the exterior surface of the blind from all sides."*****.
bradymsu----- i think we need some clarification on this statement from the MDNR spokesperson who made this statement. was the intent of this statement any and all or just for ****pop-ups and ground level blinds.****
i believe the intent was for pop-ups and ground level blinds which would make sense.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Harpo:



k9wernet said:


> If you fall off your bike and spill your brains in the street, you'll have my sympathy (and maybe a few of my tax dollars) but that's it. It's been said several times in this thread (and summarily ignored), but hunting accidents affect both the person shot and the person doing the shooting.


That's why I think this is different. I'd hate to miss out on an hour of hunting because I'm waiting for the paramedics to come and collect your corpse.

KW


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

In all seriousness with no devils advocate here.

Take out the hunting deaths that were NOT caused by gunshots, take out the self inflicked ones, take out the ones where the victim had orange on, then tell me how many deaths occurred per hunting day in each year. Then tell me how many hunting days are in each year. (Oct 1 - Oct 31 x 450,000 hunters out = 13,950,000 hunting days )
I personaly don't think we have a problem here. More hunters die from heart attacks then gunshots.

If we are going to have a hunter orange law, it should be for ALL hunters in EVERY season on PUBLIC land. Hunters on PRIVATE land should be able to control what happens on their own land.

Myself, I would like to see the hunter orange thing be optional. You can wear it if you want or you can decorate your blind/treestand with it but, you DON'T HAVE TO . 

If I get shot, I and/or my family will be responsible for my bills until/unless the courts decide different.


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

Leader said:


> In all seriousness with no devils advocate here.
> 
> Take out the hunting deaths that were NOT caused by gunshots, take out the self inflicked ones, take out the ones where the victim had orange on, then tell me how many deaths occurred per hunting day in each year. Then tell me how many hunting days are in each year. (Oct 1 - Oct 31 x 450,000 hunters out = 13,950,000 hunting days )
> I personaly don't think we have a problem here. More hunters die from heart attacks then gunshots.
> ...


I like the way you think
You said it very well


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

You're statistics are a bit off. All hunters in alll seasons amount to a total of 11,905,000 days afield in 2006. pg 12 of this- http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/fhw06-mi.pdf


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

"If we are going to have a hunter orange law, it should be for ALL hunters in EVERY season on PUBLIC land. Hunters on PRIVATE land should be able to control what happens on their own land."


A couple things, there's no problem with camo'd archers being shot. Either by small game hunters or other bowhunters.

Second, private land hunters are for the most part under the same major statewide rules as everyone else. Private land owners cannot choose season dates or bag limits. For safety's sake, private land hunters cannot legally hunt while drunk. 

Making archers on public land wear orange sounds like the same logic a few use that if bait is banned then fields should be banned too. As if there's some "fairness punishment" when there's no other reason for such a rule.


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## harpo1 (Dec 6, 2007)

k9wernet said:


> .......Also, to address the "libertarians" out there comparing this issue to a seatbelt or helmet law: If you fall off your bike and spill your brains in the street, *you'll have my sympathy* (and maybe a few of my tax dollars) but that's it. It's been said several times in this thread (and summarily ignored), but hunting accidents affect both the person shot and the person doing the shooting.
> 
> KW


Call me harsh (or whatever else you'd like), but I have very little, if any, sympathy for people that get into accidents because they willingly chose not to follow laws or recommendations that were put in place to help protect people.

Bottom line is that the laws/rules put in place for hunter orange requirements were made to help protect us. One can only assume that a person that chooses to not wear "protective" clothing must be willing to gamble with their own safety and the safety of others.


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

Some people want to have there cake and eat it too

One could easily argue, leave the law as it is and after the "three year trial period" look at the statistics


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

Pinefarm said:


> "If we are going to have a hunter orange law, it should be for ALL hunters in EVERY season on PUBLIC land. Hunters on PRIVATE land should be able to control what happens on their own land."
> 
> 
> A couple things, there's no problem with camo'd archers being shot. Either by small game hunters or other bowhunters. _*I* don't think we have a problem any hunters being shot._
> ...


 Hunter orange is said to protect the hunter from OTHER hunters that are armed. Wearing orange doesn't protect me because I am armed, it protects me because YOU are. The reasoning behind it is if someone in the woods is armed, everyone else should wear orange.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

Here is a list of Hunter Incidents reports in full for the years 2005-07. It has a breakdown of how, why, when, where. http://www.ihea.com/news-and-events/incident-reports/index.php There are also "snapshots" of years prior as well.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Armed with what? Your logic is that it doesn't matter because all weapons are the same and a .300 mag is the same as a bow.

The only bowhunters who need an orange law are those who bowhunt during the regular firearms season.


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

"The only bowhunters who need an orange law are those who bowhunt during the regular firearms season" Quote

Unless the language gets changed, so will the crossbow hunters in zone 3 during archery season won't they. Thats what this all about.

Thats why I said some people want to have there cake and eat it too.

No different than someone making $20 an hour, there happy for a little while then they want $25

I don't think it should be changed, make the string gun hunters wear orange until the three years go by, then study the statistics and make changes from that information.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

tommy-n said:


> "The only bowhunters who need an orange law are those who bowhunt during the regular firearms season" Quote
> 
> Unless the language gets changed, so will the crossbow hunters in zone 3 during archery season won't they. Thats what this all about.
> 
> ...


Studies have already been done in that regard. From 1976 to 2004 there were 4 non self-inflicted hunting incidents involving a crossbow in OH. Oddly enough there was 5 that involved Longbows during the samme period of time. With either weapon it was still way lower than 1 incident per million trips to the field.


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## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

bradymsu said:


> Rep. Joel Sheltrown is working with the DNR to develop changes to the use of hunter orange. Rep. Sheltrown is interested in eliminating the hunter orange requirement for predator hunting and for hunting deer with a crossbow during the archery deer season and for hunting bear with a crossbow. The DNR has also proposed requiring the use of hunter orange on blinds to take deer with a firearm. Comments and feedback to the proposed changes would be appreciated.
> 
> Under the new language (in bold), the hunter orange requirement would:
> 
> ...


Brady, like to see the orange exemption for predator and varmint (groundhog) hunting, not just fox and coyote. Also, if they are going to require blinds to have orange, then allow hunters inside to remove their orange as long as the blind meets the orange reqirement. Still need orange to and from the blind.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

The language for crossbows will certainly be changed before season. That's what this is about. The addition of other orange rules is also what this is about.
IMHO, the only other addition needed is that those hunting with camo enclosed tent blinds have some type of orange requirement during the regular firearms season.

The subject was raised here as far back as 2001...
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10974&highlight=orange+blinds


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

Pinefarm said:


> Armed with what? Your logic is that it doesn't matter because all weapons are the same and a .300 mag is the same as a bow.
> 
> The only bowhunters who need an orange law are those who bowhunt during the regular firearms season.


The only bow hunters that need orange are those that are in the woods whenever anyone is also in the woods with any firearm. 

Again, my wearing orange is not to protect you because I am armed, it is to protect ME because someone else is armed. And yes I actually do believe that a bow can hurt a human as well as a deer.
I think *I* should have the right to decide weather to wear orange or not. 
I am allowed to go out when it is raining even though more people are struck by lightning every year then are shot while hunting.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Maybe a question asked of Wisconsin hunters about how they like their pop up tent orange rule is in order?

From WDNR...

New in 2008, all ground blinds used on DNR-controlled lands during any gun deer season must now display a minimum of 144 square inches of solid blaze orange material that is visible 360 degrees around the blind. Also, all unoccupied ground blinds on DNR lands must have the owners customer ID number or name and address attached in a manner that is visible and legible. Exception: blinds which are being used for waterfowl hunting.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

No, not any firearm. Just long range solid projectile firearms. But if you'd like to wear orange in October if there's bird hunters in your area, feel free to do so. 

You have to look at who's been shot and by who and in what season. Frankly, a camo'd turkey hunter who's calling with a decoy infront of him is far more likely to get shot than an archer by a rabbit hunter. 

I will add, now that ML is so popular and ML's are now longer range weapons and many hunters hold their antlerless tags until ML season, some type of orange "while mobile" rule for December archers is something that should be considered too.

The thing that many don't seem to grasp is, the caliber (no pun intended) of many regular firearms season only hunters. Opening day of firearms season attracts many who should be nowhere near a loaded weapon. That's where the big problem is.


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

It's easy to take the rules of one state and try to apply it to michigan to make it fit your agenda, but if you take an average of ten or twenty states it would probably paint a whole different picture


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

tommy-n said:


> It's easy to take the rules of one state and try to apply it to michigan to make it fit your agenda, but if you take an average of ten or twenty states it would probably paint a whole different picture


It doesn't. I posted the hunting incidents. Check it out for yourself.


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## tommy-n (Jan 9, 2004)

I'll take your word for it as I was just speculating

not to get off topic but thanks again for the heads up on loc-tite supergel and blazer vanes, been working great


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Quit winking at each other fun-boys, you're making me uncomfortable.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Agenda?

Ohio's rule book...

Camouflage Ground Blinds
Use caution when hunting from a camouflaged ground blind. For your safety, mark it with a hunter orange flag or band.

It appears Illinois has a ML/archery rule...

On those Department owned or managed sites...during the muzzleloader-only deer season and the youth deer hunting season, archery deer hunters must comply with the requirements to wear blaze orange in counties open to muzzleloading deer hunting and youth hunting.


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## Islander26 (Feb 23, 2004)

Took a while to read through this

I have no problem with requiring orange on a blind on public land. I always throw a hat on top of my pop-up blind and still think its not enough. 

I have a problem with MY blind on MY property. Any invited guest will know MY stand locations and not be walking around aimlessly. That will be there last invite. This law is to save me from tresspassers. 

In other words, we need a new law to protect me from a law breaker.........


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## bradymsu (Mar 3, 2008)

Pinefarm said:


> Agenda?


Yes, didn't you know this issue is being driven by the blaze orange manufacturers, their shady lobbyists and corrupt legislators?


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

A couple other tid-bids to chew.

From PA...
Spring turkey hunters must wear a minimum of 100 square inches of hunter orange on the head or back and chest while moving from one location to another. 

From Maine...
Anyone who hunts with a firearm during any open firearm season on deer is required to wear two articles of solid-colored hunter orange clothing (fluorescent orange) which is in good and serviceable condition and which is visible from all sides. *One article must be a hat.*

From Alabama...
Hunters are not required to wear hunter orange when hunting from a stand elevated twelve (12) feet or more from the ground, when hunting in an enclosed box stand...


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Yes, didn't you know this issue is being driven by the blaze orange manufacturers, their shady lobbyists and corrupt legislators? :lol:

I knew "big orange" was behind all of this.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Pinefarm said:


> Maybe a question asked of Wisconsin hunters about how they like their pop up tent orange rule is in order?
> 
> From WDNR...
> 
> New in 2008, all ground blinds used on DNR-controlled lands during any gun deer season must now display a minimum of 144 square inches of solid blaze orange material that is visible 360 degrees around the blind. Also, all unoccupied ground blinds on DNR lands must have the owners customer ID number or name and address attached in a manner that is visible and legible. Exception: blinds which are being used for waterfowl hunting.


 There is what is needed, perfect


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I agree. That does seem about perfect. And simple too. For Michigan, since so much public land is federal and not just DNR, making it "all public lands" would be better wording for here.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

I have no issues with wearing orange when deer hunting but I sure hope they don't make it mandatory for turkey hunting. I have enough to lug around out there without having to take an "extra" hat with me.

Ganzer


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## bumpbottom (Jan 3, 2006)

I like it Pinefarm. When they make the rules only for "DNR lands" that suits all interested parties. I agree that the only thing this does on private lands is protect the rightful owner and guests from those that are already doing something illegally ( trespassers)


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

k9wernet said:


> All of this should probably be taken with a grain of salt. I would speculate that the chart is based on numbers of licenses sold, not the number of individuals purchasing a license. If one person purchased multiple tags, might that throw off the data?


No, the DNR tracks the number of individual hunters. When a license agent swipes your drivers license, you are counted an an individual hunter. It doesn't matter how many tags you purchase for that number, you are only counted as one hunter.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Pinefarm said:


> Yes, didn't you know this issue is being driven by the blaze orange manufacturers, their shady lobbyists and corrupt legislators? :lol:
> 
> I knew "big orange" was behind all of this.


Bob, that would be The Great Pumpkin Plot! :lol:


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## Leader (Dec 1, 2003)

Pinefarm said:


> No, not any firearm. Just long range solid projectile firearms. But if you'd like to wear orange in October if there's bird hunters in your area, feel free to do so. Snip.................


So. Just when is that? The only time we have any firearm restrictions is during firearm deer season. And that is only in the lower half of the lower pen.

If one hunter must wear it then ALL should have to. 
Because I have a gun doesn't make me any safer. 
Because YOU don't have a gun doesn't make you any safer.
If I need it on my blind, you need it on yours.

Also ... If you don't need it on your elevated stand, I'll put a 2x4 frame under my blind & call it elevated.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

How about hikers in the woods during any season, should they be required to wear orange? Mushroom hunters during turkey season maybe?


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

k9wernet said:


> How about hikers in the woods during any season, should they be required to wear orange? Mushroom hunters during turkey season maybe?


i'll tell you a true story about those hikers and bikers. back in the early 90's on opening day(gun season) i was hunting in the brighton rec area. come about 7:45-- 8 am a buck came running up to me while i was rattling i pulled up and slammed him with my 835 ulti mag wth a slug. not even 2 seconds later this idiot came over and down the hill on a bike at about 30 mph right in line of fire. i just about s*** my pants. as it is the idiot dumped his bike in order not to hit the buck and started cussing me out. he didn't fair to well with that option either:evil: the idiot yuppie didn't have any high viz anything on and to make it worse he had brown on. after i read him off :rant:he high tailed it back out of the woods. i can only imagine how many hunters almost shot one of these idiots on bikes in that rec area. that could have been a fatal shooting in just a mere 2-3 miliseconds. i quit gun hunting at brighton rec area just due to that stupid incident. you just can't fix stupid:coolgleam


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## rnc9502 (Mar 26, 2009)

k9wernet said:


> How about hikers in the woods during any season, should they be required to wear orange? Mushroom hunters during turkey season maybe?


I gotta draw the line there,,those sneaky little morels are hard enough to find now, How am I suppose to sneak up on them wearing blaze orange???
No way,,I can't give in on thi one...If I gotta wea orange, then them darned mushrooms gotta grow orange....fair is fair


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## MLH (Dec 19, 2008)

This will make it interersting for the guys using the new mirror blinds.


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

I grew up in MI but I do like WI hunter orange laws & ATV helmet laws better. Basically you need the hunter orange on when any firearm deer season is open. The ATV helmet requirement gets phased out with age.


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