# Lake property right question



## jimbo (Dec 29, 2007)

My wife has a friend that she kayaks with a lot. ( I have a few times too).
They will go near shore to cool off or get some from a cooler strapped to the back of their kayaks at .
They don't really do this right in front of someone beach, as they (we) try to be respectful. 
Question is, what's the law on this? 

It has to be a bit dif the walking in the river. Who'd want a stranger standing between a couple of $40k boats
Thanks in advance from my wife


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

jimbo said:


> My wife has a friend that she kayaks with a lot. ( I have a few times too).
> They will go near shore to cool off or get some from a cooler strapped to the back of their kayaks at .
> They don't really do this right in front of someone beach, as they (we) try to be respectful.
> Question is, what's the law on this?
> ...


Technically on an inland lake you can't set foot on bottom rights of the landowner. 

That being said I can't imagine you ever getting a ticket for getting out of your kayak in the water for a couple minutes to take a break like you are describing. Someone would have to be pretty anal to give you grief over it.


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## jimbo (Dec 29, 2007)

Not at all? Or Within how many feet from shore?
Let's say there a nice submerged sandbar in the middle of the lake.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

jimbo said:


> Not at all? Or Within how many feet from shore?
> Let's say there a nice submerged sandbar in the middle of the lake.


Every property owner owns a theoretrical wedge from their property to the center of the lake. They have exclusive rights to those bottom rights on inland lakes. So technically the landowners own the entire bottom of a lake unless the state happens to have state land (or county/ public park) on a shoreline somewhere then the general public can use their wedge.

The LEO generally will not write a ticket (or even bother speaking to you) if the landowner cannot prove you are on their wedge. The center of thelake is hard to prove where your land ends and someone elses begins. I would bet good money if law enforcement was called over something trivial like this all they would do is ask you to move on with a warning anyway. You would have to be some sort of miserable person to complain about a kayaker getting out for a break in front of your house in my opinion. If they are swimming and picnicking for the day that might be different.

These rules do not apply to the great lakes and the connecting waterways. The state owns bottom rights to all the great lakes so as long as you are standing in water on the great lakes you are legal.


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## jimbo (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Just to add,
If a subdivision surrounding a natural lake has waterfront boundaries, then there's a line somewhere's near the water's edge that denotes the private property boundary. 
Some years it may be on dry land. some years under water.


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> Every property owner owns a theoretrical wedge from their property to the center of the lake. They have exclusive rights to those bottom rights on inland lakes. So technically the landowners own the entire bottom of a lake unless the state happens to have state land (or county/ public park) on a shoreline somewhere then the general public can use their wedge.
> 
> The LEO generally will not write a ticket (or even bother speaking to you) if the landowner cannot prove you are on their wedge. The center of thelake is hard to prove where your land ends and someone elses begins. I would bet good money if law enforcement was called over something trivial like this all they would do is ask you to move on with a warning anyway. You would have to be some sort of miserable person to complain about a kayaker getting out for a break in front of your house in my opinion. If they are swimming and picnicking for the day that might be different.
> 
> These rules do not apply to the great lakes and the connecting waterways. The state owns bottom rights to all the great lakes so as long as you are standing in water on the great lakes you are legal.


Hmmm. So does that apply to the sand bar in torch lake. 

You would think the gone owners would band to together and press trespassing charges.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Read my post Lumberman.
Torch Lake has already been litigated IIRC.


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

Gamekeeper said:


> Read my post Lumberman.
> Torch Lake has already been litigated IIRC.


Oh I see. That explains it.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

DirtySteve said:


> Every property owner owns a theoretrical wedge from their property to the center of the lake. They have exclusive rights to those bottom rights on inland lakes. So technically the landowners own the entire bottom of a lake unless the state happens to have state land (or county/ public park) on a shoreline somewhere then the general public can use their wedge.
> 
> The LEO generally will not write a ticket (or even bother speaking to you) if the landowner cannot prove you are on their wedge. The center of thelake is hard to prove where your land ends and someone elses begins. I would bet good money if law enforcement was called over something trivial like this all they would do is ask you to move on with a warning anyway. You would have to be some sort of miserable person to complain about a kayaker getting out for a break in front of your house in my opinion. If they are swimming and picnicking for the day that might be different.
> 
> These rules do not apply to the great lakes and the connecting waterways. The state owns bottom rights to all the great lakes so as long as you are standing in water on the great lakes you are legal.


Agreed.


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## mbirdsley (Jan 12, 2012)

I think on the Great Lakes or anything under the jurisdiction of the army corps. you get to the high water mark?


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

Birdsley, the great lakes are treated differently than inland lakes. The state owns the bottom lands on the great lakes but property owners own bottom lands on inland lakes. The high water mark IS important in both cases. Dirty Steve is correct in his assessment on the issue. BtW the corps is mostly concerned with river navigabilty and even then they are more concerned the "possible" commercial use of said waterways.


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## mbirdsley (Jan 12, 2012)

toto said:


> Birdsley, the great lakes are treated differently than inland lakes. The state owns the bottom lands on the great lakes but property owners own bottom lands on inland lakes. The high water mark IS important in both cases. Dirty Steve is correct in his assessment on the issue. BtW the corps is mostly concerned with river navigabilty and even then they are more concerned the "possible" commercial use of said waterways.


I know the Great Lakes are treated differently than inland lakes. Only reason I brought up the army corps is because if they are involved than the state or the Feds more than likely own the bottom land on a navigational river or lake i.e. Great Lakes. So if you are walking a beach on the Great Lakes you can go to the high water mark and not be considered trespassing? Meaning some years you might have to have your feet in the water and other years you may be walking in sand? ?


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## Cork Dust (Nov 26, 2012)

jimbo said:


> Not at all? Or Within how many feet from shore?
> Let's say there a nice submerged sandbar in the middle of the lake.


Technically, each lake lot owns the bottomland of the lake basin in a pie shaped piece extending from their property corners out to the theoretic intersection of all of these in the center of the basin.

Something to check on the lakes you kayak on: Are there road right-of-ways that extend to the water's edge for a dead end road on these basins. Also, is there a State Public Access site on any of these lakes that you recreate on via kayaks.

The sandbar question inserts another set of issues, since it may be technically "owned" by several riparian property owners some distance away. Screaming drunks in powerboats usually garner more attention...and ire from these folks. Example: Gull Lake


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

Birdsley that is correct. The beach walking was established in glass vs goeckel ( sic?). Where there is some confusion is with surf fishing and that is clear as mud. Not real sure on that part of the ruling. As for bottom lands and corps, not positive but that doesn't sound quite right. I think the property owners still own the underlying bed, the corps only is dealing with navigabilty issues as I understand it.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

They don't own it, they have the riparian rights to it. IF the owned it they would be taxed on it.

Personally I believe they should be taxed on those riparian rights anyways.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I always say, "Look at your legal description, that's all you own."

This topic was exhaustively covered in great detail last year on this site.
Some of what is being said here is not legally accurate. And I'm too tired today to go through it all line by line.

Notice I wrote "natural lake".


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

swampbuck said:


> They don't own it, they have the riparian rights to it. IF the owned it they would be taxed on it.
> 
> Personally I believe they should be taxed on those riparian rights anyways.


You are taxed on riparian rights.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I would have to see that. You may pay more because of the property value. But I have never heard of a line item for Riparian rights. 

I have non-resident Higgins lake front friends, whom I have had some pretty deep conversation with regarding property taxes. And Riparian rights.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Read your tax bill.
Your taxes are based on the mill's assessed for each $1,000.00 of valuation.
There's a laundry list of people with their hand's out on it. But not the Riparians 

The value of the riparian rights is packed into the SEV.

Again, on a natural lake, when the subdivisions are plotted, there is a line down by the lake shown on the plot that is the edge of your property.
Look up some subdivisons on the States's website. They are all there these days.
You can see where the edge of the lot is.

Some lakes when they were subdivided around, held the last few feet to waters edge for the public to use. Or, they arranged a ring of easements for lakefront maintenance. These are often half width lots running down to the water that are undeveloped and used for dock installations, etc.


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## snortwheeze (Jul 31, 2012)

I would say it all depends on how your wife and her friend look in there bikinis


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

I am not a bass fisherman. If I catch one it is incidental. I do not cast near someone's boat. There are plenty of empty dock and shore areas where I fish. Fishing is like hunting in that using common sense will avoid a lot of problems.


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> I've spent several $100's of dollars repairing the shore station cover and the upholstery in the boat due to people firing hooks into our dock. Paint chips off the side of the boat too. Out on the deck and you hear a "clank" as they bounce one off the boat, then they ram into the dock and walk down it with their pliers waiting to rip the hooks out of whatever they've snagged. One guy took the opportunity to help himself to a few things in the boat as well while he was there, funny as there's only one launch and it's right down the road, so that didn't work out too well for him.
> 
> Sometimes my dad puts his 1956 Chris Craft that he's spent 100's of hours restoring, that his dad helped build when he was a foreman at the plant in Holland, by the dock and people think nothing of firing bullet weights at it.
> 
> We walk the dock before the kids are allowed on it every time up there, and they are told to not swim next to or under the dock for fear of getting a hook stuck in them. Every year pulling it I cringe for the lure we don't find until it's too late.


It sounds like you need some hidden cameras to get the MC numbers and then to prosecute folks that do those things. People that destroy and steal property are criminals not sportsmen.


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## slowpaya (Oct 23, 2011)

Gamekeeper said:


> I don't know where you have fished.
> I have had many "unfortunate" interactions with lakefront property owners about casting in front of their property. You see the bass stacked under a dock or boat, you cast up toward the bank, and here comes somebody out from the house to run you off.
> 
> And no one is going to be better served by entering into an argument over it, at that moment.
> Best to just move on.


 could always put it on record and r.a.p. em for harrasment


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

That would be a No Winner situation.
Best to move on.
When I fish it's to amp down, not amp up.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

DirtySteve said:


> Because the law says so.
> 
> If you are in the center of the lake and not on a property owners shore area you would probably never be questioned.


Doesn't seem to be the case, read #3

http://www.annlake.org/?page_id=1050


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## Greatest hunter in world? (Apr 3, 2017)

DecoySlayer said:


> It's not at all out of the norm for people, mainly bass fisherpeople, to come back into the marina a LEMP and throw lures around the boats and docks. Boats get hit all the time. Those kinds of fisherpeople have no class what so ever and should be forced to sign over their boats to me.


Under docks and boats holds a lot of fish. It ain't going to hurt your boat if my Carolina rig bounces off.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

toto said:


> Doesn't seem to be the case, read #3
> 
> http://www.annlake.org/?page_id=1050


Not sure what exactly you are disputing about my post. Your link seems to mirror my thoughts.

According to law you cannot drop anchor and swim. I suppose that you could let your boat drift and swim near it and be fine.

Even though the law says you cannot drop anchor and swim I believe you would never be ticketed for it in the center of a lake. The reason I say this is because a land owner would have to be able to prove you are on his or her bottom rights to push the issue with law enforcement. I don't think an LEO would write a ticket for trespassing without proof of whose bottom rights you are on. If it was a private lake someone actually gave you permission To be on the lake. If there is public property on the lake you might be on their bottom lands.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

If you think about it a little more, the law stated you can anchor as a incident of navigability. Now it also says you can swim anywhere in a public lake, if you combine both statements, I think you would agree that swimming anywhere in a lake is fine for one part, and you could do so while anchored On the second part. Notice however, that I didn't say mooring, that's different and would not be legal. Also on owning bottom lands, it depends on water depth, believe it or not. Look up hill vs want, it states that if the water is too deep, it's impractical to decide who owns what. The problem is, it didn't mentioned at what depth is it impractical.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Well said, Toto
That's a nice addition.

There are few times when my understanding of property rights is inaccurate.
I have encountered the use of the "Threading" doctrine on properties that had a creek, drain, or river, as a boundary. And it was written in the description.
It's on the plats commonly.
And lakefront lots have the waterline boundary, and often have a big "State of Michigan" as the owner of the lake bottom on the other side of the property boundary. 

I'm still trying to get a grasp on how to defend boundaries that are said to exist, but have no physical dimensions attached.

In reading those decisions last night, I did encounter the caveat that said the decisions were specific only to the circuits that they were arrived in.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

toto said:


> If you think about it a little more, the law stated you can anchor as a incident of navigability. Now it also says you can swim anywhere in a public lake, if you combine both statements, I think you would agree that swimming anywhere in a lake is fine for one part, and you could do so while anchored On the second part.


I believe it has been ruled on in the courts that anchoring for an incident of navigability does not include situations of recreation like swimming and sun bathing.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

You may correct, it does seem pretty vague on the swimming and anchoring deal. However, When I read things like the link I'm providing, I wonder why one couldn't anchor and swim and be perfectly legal.


In this article, you will see that people using a public lake, have the same rights as a riparian property owner, to me that would include swimming. Never mind, bad link, I'll try again and see if I can post a good link.

http://www.mymlsa.org/riparian-rights-in-michigan/


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## garyb (Jan 23, 2003)

Gamekeeper said:


> Well said, Toto
> That's a nice addition.
> 
> There are few times when my understanding of property rights is inaccurate.
> ...


i was at patterson lake in pickney , chain of lakes, msu has a site there and they have put of boundries out to the lake , approx 200feet x 600 feet, they have boyes out there also they don't want you going thru there, it use to be one of my best fishing spots for bass and bluegills, there are no trespassing signs ,nothing that says the state of michigan owns it, should i be imtimadated and not go there anymore ? i thought nobody owns the water, or is it because some big outfit like msu owns it. just irratates the heck out of me.


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## jiggin is livin (Jan 7, 2011)

garyb said:


> i was at patterson lake in pickney , chain of lakes, msu has a site there and they have put of boundries out to the lake , approx 200feet x 600 feet, they have boyes out there also they don't want you going thru there, it use to be one of my best fishing spots for bass and bluegills, there are no trespassing signs ,nothing that says the state of michigan owns it, should i be imtimadated and not go there anymore ? i thought nobody owns the water, or is it because some big outfit like msu owns it. just irratates the heck out of me.



Seems to me, as long as you don't anchor or touch bottom, you're good legally. I might be wrong but that's how I understand the law.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Greatest hunter in world? said:


> Under docks and boats holds a lot of fish. It ain't going to hurt your boat if my Carolina rig bounces off.


I know that fish stack up under docks, and docked boats. I have seen a lot of damage to boats done by fishermen bouncing lures, etc, off of them. I have seen chipped fiberglass, and a lot of torn seats. I have not seen any damage at LEMP marina, yet, but it will happen. Throwing lures around docked boats is just not smart. If it was my marina I would have a camera system set up so we could hold people responsible for their actions when the damage a boat.


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