# New Regulations being discussed for Ausable rivers.



## beer and nuts

Wildcat, while TU and other groups have poured alot of influential money into restoration projects...so have I and many others...let alone put up thousands of feet of of own land for restoration...but that doesn't give TU or other groups or me the right to get what they want as far as regulations. I would hope the groups are doing forthe benefit of the river and future and not to influence regulations!?

Worm fishing is no more "toxic" than fly fishing mid July to August when the rivers are at their highest temps and catching trout in the Mason Tract, battling them to the very end on 2lb tippet only to release the exhausted fish back into warm water....if I remember correctly there was a study on this at one time and the mortality was quite high.

Plus we are talking hardware only I beleive, so worms have no consideration if I read that right. And no reason why fishing can't be year-round still with hardware. and fly in sections. Heck, best to close daytime fishing July and August!?!?

ps. Worm fishing has been going on above Chase forever and still to this day, its better fishing in my book, explain that?? Oh, if your keeping fish to grill, what does it matter, but if you know your releasing them then there is a technique in worm fishing where you don't hook them down in the throat, set the hook ealier!! And if you do get into the throat, cut the line and release them, they will do just fine.


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## Kelly Neuman

beer and nuts said:


> Wildcat, while TU and other groups have poured alot of influential money into restoration projects...so have I and many others...let alone put up thousands of feet of of own land for restoration...but that doesn't give TU or other groups or me the right to get what they want as far as regulations. I would hope the groups are doing forthe benefit of the river and future and not to influence regulations!?
> 
> Worm fishing is no more "toxic" than fly fishing mid July to August when the rivers are at their highest temps and catching trout in the Mason Tract, battling them to the very end on 2lb tippet only to release the exhausted fish back into warm water....if I remember correctly there was a study on this at one time and the mortality was quite high.
> 
> Plus we are talking hardware only I beleive, so worms have no consideration if I read that right. And no reason why fishing can't be year-round still with hardware. and fly in sections. Heck, best to close daytime fishing July and August!?!?
> 
> ps. Worm fishing has been going on above Chase forever and still to this day, its better fishing in my book, explain that?? Oh, if your keeping fish to grill, what does it matter, but if you know your releasing them then there is a technique in worm fishing where you don't hook them down in the throat, set the hook ealier!! And if you do get into the throat, cut the line and release them, they will do just fine.


Every study ever done on fishing bait shows just the opposite of what your stating. How many miles can you fish hardware or bait on the Au Sable and kill trout - 60 to 70 miles. Everyone has there own opinion and hopefully some days those miles can be changed over to catch and release also!


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## beer and nuts

> Every study ever done on fishing bait shows just the opposite of what your stating. How many miles can you fish hardware or bait on the Au Sable and kill trout - 60 to 70 miles. Everyone has there own opinion and hopefully some days those miles can be changed over to catch and release also!


 So what? Is it the killing that bothers you? Or the fact that people can use other means of tackle besides your means of making money? The comment about hoping the entire system becomes catch and release scares the heck out of me and should to everybody else including all fly fisherman. Again, true colors show their face with comments like this...

Hey streamside you do realize you can still fly fish those 60-70 miles as well....what having the whole system to use your business isn't good enough for you....so you want to elminate other fisherman means so you can have the river system to yourself and your business?

Maybe we should go to fishing is the right of landowners only. Thats sure would help selfish me and not have all those dam guides/river boats stopping in front of my property, house and cabin where my family allowed restoration and conservation efforts.


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## Fishndude

> There is a technique in worm fishing where you don't hook them down in the throat, set the hook ealier!! And if you do get into the throat, cut the line and release them, they will do just fine.




Using a bobber (float, if you prefer that term) helps get that hook set quicker, as well. Never floated bait for Trout as a kid - bobbers were for panfish. :lol: Now float fishing is all the rage, and for a reason - because it works. 
Gear restrictions simply serve special interest groups, which means that they exclude certain groups of people. Nobody wants to be excluded. ALL who purchase a license should have equal access to our lakes, rivers, and streams. If controls need to be put into place to preserve the fisheries, then instead of restricting gear, they should restrict seasons for everyone. Bass and Walleyes are protected during their spawning seasons. So are Trout on many streams and rivers. Imagine if we couldn't fish for Salmon and Steelhead when they are spawning? Imagine nobody being able to fish at Tippy dam during the Salmon spawn? Unfathomable.


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## Boardman Brookies

beer and nuts said:


> So what? Is it the killing that bothers you? Or the fact that people can use other means of tackle besides your means of making money? The comment about hoping the entire system becomes catch and release scares the heck out of me and should to everybody else including all fly fisherman. Again, true colors show their face with comments like this...QUOTE]
> 
> I was thinking the same exact thing.


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## WILDCATWICK

Beer and Nuts, I have no problem with other groups and individuals donating money and time to stream rehabilitation. I know many do and kudos to them. I was responding to the comment,


> I will say they do more to harm the river than any change in regs would even do.


. I wanted to simply point out how much good they have done too.




> Worm fishing has been going on above Chase forever and still to this day, its better fishing in my book, explain that??


  Well, it's better at times and better for some than others. I use my share of worms. Usually jigging, drifting, or slow retrieve. I don't have a huge issue with that. What I do have a monstrous objection to, as stated before, is still fishing with worms. This is the most lethal method of fishing. I have used the method for many years on the Clinton river and the St. Clair river and it is a brutal method in comparison to all others. 

I agree with you to set the hook early but when you still fish it just doesn't happen that way when a tree branch is holding up someone's rod while their worm sits on the bottum. It's just a bad way to go.

I discussed worms after 8nchuck brought up that he wants that legalized for youth and handicapped anglers. I didn't bring the subject up.


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## Kelly Neuman

beer and nuts said:


> So what? Is it the killing that bothers you? Or the fact that people can use other means of tackle besides your means of making money? The comment about hoping the entire system becomes catch and release scares the heck out of me and should to everybody else including all fly fisherman. Again, true colors show their face with comments like this...
> 
> Hey streamside you do realize you can still fly fish those 60-70 miles as well....what having the whole system to use your business isn't good enough for you....so you want to elminate other fisherman means so you can have the river system to yourself and your business?
> 
> Maybe we should go to fishing is the right of landowners only. Thats sure would help selfish me and not have all those dam guides/river boats stopping in front of my property, house and cabin where my family allowed restoration and conservation efforts.


Yes my true colors do show - pushing for better trout fishing by not killing the ones we have. The dumb ass comments made about excluding anglers, eliminating fisherman, how fishing bait will not reduce trout numbers were all made by yourself NOT ME. When the Mio regs were in question last year I pushed very hard for one thing catch & release artificial only - excluding no one(that was at a public NCR meeting). When you look all trophy trout rivers around the world almost all of the best ones have one thing in common - catch and release or highly restrictive reg. Here is why I push for catch and release - same Au Sable trout caught in Oct 09 and Nov 09. Made two peoples day and is there for someone else to catch. 







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## geojasstef

Well that explains where all the little fish go.......inside that big one. If only he/she would pratice C&R.


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## beer and nuts

Stream, your blinded by your emotion with your business. When you take a stream and make fly's only or catch and release or both....you automatically reduce fisherman numbers, exclude fisherman etc..

Do you even realize fish reproduce...its the reason why one can keep trout for the grill. What you consider "better" tout fishing because of catch and release rules, to some better trout fishing is being able to keep 1 or 2 for the grill.

By the way, the above "dumb ass comments" are my opinion, opinion that have fished the AuSable system for 35 years...



> Here is why I push for catch and release - same Au Sable trout caught in Oct 09 and Nov 09. Made two peoples day and is there for someone else to catch.


 No kidding...again its about your business..I understand that.


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## beer and nuts

Geojass...thats a great point when the trout get that size they are worse predators than a pike on young trout. Taking those big fish out of the system, especially bigger males, does way more good than harm for future trout populations.


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## Ron Matthews

beer and nuts said:


> What you consider "better" tout fishing because of catch and release rules, to some better trout fishing is being able to keep 1 or 2 for the grill..


Eat bluegills...
How and why would you want to Kill a Trout like That? Doesn't make a bit of sense to me?
Why would one Not want a trophy fishery when you can eat panfish by the thousands?


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## beer and nuts

Ron, are you serious with that comment!? 

If you are..then ...if you just want to catch and release big fish...go to a trout pond and do it all day long!!!! The Grayling fish hatchery is open in the summer.


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## Kelly Neuman

beer and nuts said:


> Geojass...thats a great point when the trout get that size they are worse predators than a pike on young trout. Taking those big fish out of the system, especially bigger males, does way more good than harm for future trout populations.


Yeah lets kill all of the big trout so there are lots of little ones. There is shortage of small trout on the Au Sable? Good one. Beer and Nuts without flies only water who would you have to blame your lack of fish on? NRC is today and all get to speak there opinions. Go tell the Director your load of crap and see if she falls for it. I think not. There is lots of water for everyone on the Au Sable and flies only is just a very small piece. What is next trying to eliminate bow season because it excludes gun hunter?


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## geojasstef

Streamside Custom Rod said:


> Yeah lets kill all of the big trout so there are lots of little ones. There is shortage of small trout on the Au Sable? Good one. Beer and Nuts without flies only water who would you have to blame your lack of fish on? NRC is today and all get to speak there opinions. Go tell the Director your load of crap and see if she falls for it. I think not. There is lots of water for everyone on the Au Sable and flies only is just a very small piece. What is next trying to eliminate bow season because it excludes gun hunter?


I e-mailed the DNR this morning to see how much Flies only water there is compared to other trout waters ... have yet to have a responce. Personally I think that it is a very small percent. By the way .. I only fly fish for trout and mainly on the flies only section of the SB and Manistee. I also have a pair of Orvis waders...OMG.


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## Kelly Neuman

geojasstef said:


> I e-mailed the DNR this morning to see how much Flies only water there is compared to other trout waters ... have yet to have a responce. Personally I think that it is a very small percent. By the way .. I only fly fish for trout and mainly on the flies only section of the SB and Manistee. I also have a pair of Orvis waders...OMG.


I thing around a 100 miles of flies only water in Michigan. 1000's of miles of excellent trout streams in this state.


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## beer and nuts

With all this miles and miles of trout fishing water ...why then do we have to have a fly fishing only water?......you guys make no sense. Any chance we can make the 1000's of miles, nonflyfishing water only....

Streamside, I never said kill all the big ones. I wil say this, this thread and your comments will remind me NOT to send or recommend any customers your way. Never have I heard such arrogance.



> Beer and Nuts without flies only water who would you have to blame your lack of fish on?


 What are you talking about??


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## Fishndude

Why not take that 100 miles of flies-only water, and alternate the fishing methods allowed, from year to year, then? One year it would be flies-ONLY. The following year single-hook hardware ONLY. The following year bait ONLY. Then back to flies-only. That way no particular group is excluded unequally. They could still be C&R all of the time, to preserve a "trophy" fishery. 
I have to think that some of these exclusionary practices are at least partly responsible for fewer and fewer people buying licenses these days. That has been a trend for the last 15 years. Can't take your young kid fishing because they can't handle a flyrod, and can't fish with bait or hardware on a great piece of water? Some people aren't so obsessed with fishing that they find another piece of water, or different species to fish for, and just hang it up. When that happens with a parent and child, or children, you lose multiple fisherpeople from the ranks of license buying anglers. Many never come back. All because special interest groups want to serve their own myopic wants. Fish are a renewable resource. That resource should be managed for the optimum use by everyone who pays to use it. Period. 

By the way, Kelly, that is a beautiful Brown. You can see how he slimmed down from the spawn. What a great fish.


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## Troutlord1

Fishndude said:


> Fish are a renewable resource. .


I dont think the Grayling would agree with that!:lol:


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## Kelly Neuman

beer and nuts said:


> With all this miles and miles of trout fishing water ...why then do we have to have a fly fishing only water?......you guys make no sense. Any chance we can make the 1000's of miles, nonflyfishing water only....
> 
> Streamside, I never said kill all the big ones. I wil say this, this thread and your comments will remind me NOT to send or recommend any customers your way. Never have I heard such arrogance.
> 
> What are you talking about??


Thank you for not sending people like yourself my way!


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## 8nchuck

WILDCATWICK said:


> I was responding to the comment, .


Wildcatwick,

Sorry you misunderstood. I was directing my harm comment to the drunk canoes/tubes. Not TU & AOA. As I said they do do a world of good.

Also sorry about the fish stocking error.

Do we not all, with a trout stamp, still pay for it, regardless of who does it?


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## ESOX

I am a fly fisherman, have been for just under 40 years now. I detest flies only water. I detest the very concept that flyfishing needs it's own water. I don't need flies only water on the Ausable or PM any more than I need a flies only section of Lake St. Clair.


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## Kelly Neuman

In 2002 law was changed from 100 to 212 miles as the maximum number of gear restrictive miles of trout streams in Michigan. So there is a limit and I hope this state uses all 212 miles in the future.


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## bonefishbill

Streamside Custom Rod said:


> Just like in other cases the last couple years the change was brought on by one persons personal agenda - head of fisheries dept Kelley Smith. I have been told now that he is claiming there are typos in the DNR order and it is going to be changed. Hopefully the Director steps in and does the right thing - again.


Should be flies only---the entire stream-


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## Troutlord1

Fishndude said:


> __________________
> 
> Grayling became extinct due to habitat degradation, not overfishing. They have been reintroduced several times, and have always died out. In fact, they were last reintroduced in the Holy Waters of the Ausable - where flies-only and C&R restrictions are in place. They died out. How does this support the gear restrictions argument in any way?


While the Logging played a huge part in wiping out the Grayling, it was not the only reason for their demise. They indeed were greatly overfished,so much that they would fill boxcars full of them(salted so as not to spoil) and ship them off by train to Chicago and other cities. There is a book called The Old Ausable by Hazen Miller which details the demise of the Grayling (and covers the history of that region) and a great dvd called A Century of flyfishing history,The North Branch of the Ausable River which covers most of it too.Could they have survived the logging or the overfishing, who knows??I just wanted to point out that out.Whos not to say (although its highly doubtful) that some man made disaster or biological disaster (like raising the temps to levels too warm for trout to survive or some chemical spill that wipes out the food source of the river) could happen that could alter the river as we know it now and make it impossible for brook brown or rainbow trout to be planted if such disaster happens.Yes for the most part fish are a renewable resource but things can happen that can affect that. 

But that said, my original post didnt really have anything to do with regs on the river so I guess I dont know why I posted it in the 1st place.:lol:


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## ESOX

Rainbows and Browns are simply nonindigenous species, just like carp. The difference is that Rainbows and Browns are socially acceptable. To exclude people from using any method but flyfishing when fishing for nonindigenous fish is the epitome of ridiculous overregulation.


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## Kelly Neuman

ESOX said:


> Rainbows and Browns are simply nonindigenous species, just like carp. The difference is that Rainbows and Browns are socially acceptable. To exclude people from using any method but flyfishing when fishing for nonindigenous fish is the epitome of ridiculous overregulation.


So your in favor on catch & release with bait? I guess you know more than all of people that have done studies on this issue. Comparing trout to carp is a joke - carp will strive in just about any body of water and trout will not. If you do not like the flies only water then do not fish it! Michigan law will allow 212 miles and hopefully it is reached in 2010.


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## ESOX

Comparing trout to any other invasive species is not a joke, it is fact. Man brought them here. Man raises them to release them outside their natural habitat. Therefore why should only a select few who decide to use a particular method to fish for them be allowed to? They fish were planted with everyones money. They can plant more.They are truly a renewable resource.


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## Shoeman

Streamside Custom Rod said:


> So your in favor on catch & release with bait? I guess you know more than all of people that have done studies on this issue. Comparing trout to carp is a joke - carp will strive in just about any body of water and trout will not. If you do not like the flies only water then do not fish it! Michigan law will allow 212 miles and hopefully it is reached in 2010.


You still seem to catch your share of bruisers for your clients in "open water". OK, there's a trophy reg" that reduces the limit and doesn't allow bait, but it's still open to spin fishermen. Why do you feel the need to carry to carry it further? It's stocked every year and the ones that find coldwater refuge have tremendous growth rates. I'd rather see your efforts geared towards reducing tube and canoe traffic. Now that's an issue. Not some guy throwing spinners or plugs


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## Kelly Neuman

ESOX said:


> Comparing trout to any other invasive species is not a joke, it is fact. Man brought them here. Man raises them to release them outside their natural habitat. Therefore why should only a select few who decide to use a particular method to fish for them be allowed to? They fish were planted with everyones money. They can plant more.They are truly a renewable resource.


Carp with strive with any regulations in almost any water quality, trout will not. The flies only water is not stocked - get your facts straight.


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## Kelly Neuman

Shoeman said:


> You still seem to catch your share of bruisers for your clients in "open water". OK, there's a trophy reg" that reduces the limit and doesn't allow bait, but it's still open to spin fishermen. Why do you feel the need to carry to carry it further? It's stocked every year and the ones that find coldwater refuge have tremendous growth rates. I'd rather see your efforts geared towards reducing tube and canoe traffic. Now that's an issue. Not some guy throwing spinners or plugs


Again the flies only water is not stocked and that has been what this thread is about. Yeah I'm going to stop the tubers and canoes. Only on a forum site!


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## Shoeman

Streamside Custom Rod said:


> Again the flies only water is not stocked and that has been what this thread is about. Yeah I'm going to stop the tubers and canoes. Only on a forum site!


No, the topic is the "expansion" of flies only water into the areas that are stocked



> In 2002 law was changed from 100 to 212 miles as the maximum number of gear restrictive miles of trout streams in Michigan. So there is a limit and I hope this state uses all 212 miles in the future.


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## ESOX

Streamside Custom Rod said:


> Again the flies only water is not stocked and that has been what this thread is about. Yeah I'm going to stop the tubers and canoes. Only on a forum site!


All of those fish, or their ancestors, were stocked at some point. Just like carp.


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## Kelly Neuman

Shoeman said:


> No, the topic is the "expansion" of flies only water into the areas that are stocked


Those are your words not mine. I stated my opinion that I hope gear restricted trout waters are expanded in Michigan. The law changed in 2002 for this to happen and so should the miles of water.


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## Kelly Neuman

ESOX said:


> All of those fish, or their ancestors, were stocked at some point. Just like carp.


In thread about trout management you compare trout to carp - pull your head out of your ass!


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## Shoeman

Streamside Custom Rod said:


> Those are your words not mine. I stated my opinion that I hope gear restricted trout waters are expanded in Michigan. The law changed in 2002 for this to happen and so should the miles of water.


My words?

I'll try it again



> In 2002 law was changed from 100 to 212 miles as the maximum number of gear restrictive miles of trout streams in Michigan. So there is a limit and I hope this state uses all 212 miles in the future.


I believe those are yours


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## Kelly Neuman

Shoeman said:


> My words?
> 
> I'll try it again
> 
> 
> 
> I believe those are yours


Yes your words. Mine says gear restrictive. Do you need someone to read you the definition of that?


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## Shoeman

You can't seriously tell me you're comfortable with 3 gangs of trebles going through the Gorilla Hole. I'm not a fool. I know what gear restriction means to a fly-fishing guide, even if you try to discount it

Feisty today, ain't ya? :lol:

Good thing I didn't compare trout to sheepshead or catfish...LOL


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## ESOX

Streamside Custom Rod said:


> In thread about trout management you compare trout to carp - pull your head out of your ass!


I am not suffering from a rectal cranial inversion. Nor am I suffering from "I am incapable of catching fish when I have to compete with other anglers" syndrome. Nor do I have my ignorance cap on, I can clearly see that Carp, Browns, Gobies and Rainbows are all nonindigenous species. Some we currently stock, some we stocked in the past, some we inadvertently stocked. They all have one thing in common, nature didn't put them here.
Limiting the ability of all anglers to utilize this unnatural resource is discriminatory and ridiculous at best.


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## Ranger Ray

Streamside Custom Rod said:


> So your in favor on catch & release with bait?


Why not? What have the studies showed that are relevant to not allowing this? Just because the mortality is higher? Just the fact that the mortality is higher in itself is not reason enough to stop it. Is it relevant to something? Kill as few fish as we can? We can achieve utopia by not allowing anyone to fish. If we can save 4% by not allowing baiting, why not achieve 4% more and not allow catch and release? How about eliminate guides and reduce the pressure? Less pressure less kill. The argument for flies only water based on kill is irrelevant to the overall health of a river. How do you like the new studies where they are finding catch and release is decreasing angler satisfaction?


> Numerous cases of angler dissatisfaction due to trout deformities or injuries purportedly resulting from repeated hooking by anglers have been reported to USGS biologists.


Their studies are concluding it is better for the health of the system to have fishing regulated by catch and keep, no release. You catch limit, you are done. Thus eliminating all mortality associated with catch and release. Norway is already implementing this catch and keep and Canada was going to experiment with it. Ah Utopia, where every idiot has a better idea of it.


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## Kelly Neuman

ESOX said:


> I am not suffering from a rectal cranial inversion. Nor am I suffering from "I am incapable of catching fish when I have to compete with other anglers" syndrome. Nor do I have my ignorance cap on, I can clearly see that Carp, Browns, Gobies and Rainbows are all nonindigenous species. Some we currently stock, some we stocked in the past, some we inadvertently stocked. They all have one thing in common, nature didn't put them here.
> Limiting the ability of all anglers to utilize this unnatural resource is discriminatory and ridiculous at best.


Without somehow limiting anglers and there methods with proper fish management our trout streams will resemble what your signature is making jokes at - The Detroit Lions! I see no discrimination in our regs - if it says flies only just cut off your spinner, tie a fly on and fling it out there like everyone in that section.


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