# Yote sign ????



## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

Gunslinger,

One thing slinger at least I am not a coward and you know my name and where I live. If the law wants me thay have everything they need to get me.

6 post hey gunslinger and your already a KNOW IT ALL!!!!!!!

I am not an outdoormen hey??? Okay!!!!!!!!

Setting a trap in the way I spoke about is doing nothing more then setting a trap on coyote sign. First off it wasn't a badger den!!!!!!!!! It was a badger hunting and this would be setting on sign.

Dave


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## RealGunslinger (Feb 22, 2006)

Dave,

First off, you are wrong, and now you are back tracking. 
And just because I am new to this site and and have posted for 2 days does not mean I am ignorant to the outdoors or to the law, that makes you look like an even bigger moron.

What you implied in your trapping post is against the law, and everyone knows it. Just admit you were wrong and drop it, don't dig yourself a bigger hole.

And I am not hiding from you or anyone. My name is Paul Winans my phone number is 269-751-2024, I live in Hamilton, MI. Give me a call if you want.

If you are a poacher and do what ever it takes to kill animals, that is on your mind. The fun of trapping is out smarting an animal, not setting a trap on it's front door and wait for him to come out!!! Why do you think it is against the law? If everyone did that, there would be no animals to trap. I know where several fox dens are, but I am not gonna set a trap on their front door and wait to kill them. I enjoy watching them raise their young there every spring. And if I am lucky enough to catch one a few hundred yards away. lucky me.


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## Rumajz (Dec 29, 2005)

Hey Gunslinger, 

Relax would you?

I am with you Dave. That guy needs some vacation or more time in the woods to get that stress off his back - man it must be heavy.

Just take it easy man, that's all I have to say


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

SO GREAT LAW MAN Slinger.

Tell me this have you ever set a trap in a rat run??????? Which all go into a hole or a den.

This also every set a trap over hole along a stream bank where a mink was hunting in the roots clumbs.


Dave


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## RealGunslinger (Feb 22, 2006)

No, and NO. I am not a law man, you are taking offense to everything, I simply pointed out to you and obviously to others that you can't:

"Molest or disturb the house, hole, nest, burrow or den of a badger, beaver, mink, muskrat or raccoon, whether occupied or not, or molest or destroy a beaver dam, except under a DNR Wildlife Damage Investigation and Control Permit."

A muskrat run is not a house, hole, nest, burrow or den. DUH!!!
and if you set over a hole of a mink that is illegal too. 

So yes you have proven you are a poacher. So be it. I am not going to continue to argue with you, you obviously have chosen to ignore the law and make it harder for us REAL outdoorsmen. Until you can have an intelligent conversation about this illegal activity, I am done with you. You have made no good arguements or pointed out any gray areas formed in this law.

Now if you were intelligent enough to say," well what if you thought it was a fox or coyote den, and set a body trap on private land and accidently caught a badger,", then that would have been legal, except you couldn't keep the badger you would need to turn it in to the DNR as an accidental catch. Instead you just try to be little me, which isn't working...LOL

And if you go back and read the original post it started out as a coyote thread and turned into a badger thread where you chimed in on set a #220 over the used hole and you will get him....ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

That fine gunslinger,

I hope the law is here tomorrow for me. 

Because you know what every place I see a mink hunting I set a trap. Its called a blind set.

Same thing for rats if I find a place where it looks like rats are using a place I set a trap. Also called a blind set.

So for now on NOBODY can set a natural hole anywhere on your line. Because you know a mink or a **** could be hunting the hole. God for bid you to catch that animal.

You must not catch much on the water.

Dave


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

For everyone here is the law. This FACT not coming from a guide but the law. Now gunslinger what do you have to say. I don't care what the guide says only the law as on the BOOKS. That is the only thing that will hold up in court. So learn the law not the guide. 


3.600 Fur-bearing animals; use of firearms; traps and catching devices; use of bait; unlawful acts.

Sec. 3.600. It shall be unlawful for any person:

(1) To use a firearm to take marten, muskrat, beaver, otter, mink, fisher, or badger, except as permitted by authority of a nuisance control permit issued by the department. Rimfire firearms .22 caliber or smaller may be used to kill coyote, fox, raccoon, bobcat, and badger in traps, except for youths trapping with a junior fur harvester-trap only license.

(2) Except as provided by subsection (3), to use or have in possession in areas frequented by animals, a catching device of any kind for the taking of animals unless the name and address in legible English or the complete Michigan driver license number of the user or person possessing the device is permanently etched in the catching device, or there shall be securely fastened to each catching device a metallic plate or tag bearing the name and address in legible English or the complete Michigan driver license number of the user or person possessing the catching device. 

(3) To use, carry afield, or have in possession 1 or more snares unless they have attached a metallic tag or plate securely fastened which bears the name and address in legible English or the complete Michigan driver&#8217;s license number of the user or person possessing the catching devise.

(4) To use or have in possession 1 or more snares securely attached to a pole unless the uppermost end of the pole has a metallic plate or tag securely fastened which bears the name and address in legible English or the complete Michigan driver license number of the user or person possessing the catching device. 

(5) To use a multiple catch or colony trap except for the taking of muskrat and provided that the trap is completely submerged below the water. Colony traps must be constructed of steel and shall be no larger than 6 inches in height, 6 inches in width, and 24 inches in depth. This order shall not be construed to prohibit use of colony or multiple catch traps used by nuisance control operators for species other than muskrat.

(6) To stake, put out, or set a catching device of any kind for the taking of a fur-bearing animal at any time preceding the day on which the open season for the taking of such fur-bearing animal begins. 

(7) To use a foothold trap with a jaw spread exceeding a number 2 foothold trap for the taking of mink or muskrat except as may be provided by this order for the incidental take of muskrat during the beaver and otter season. It shall also be unlawful to use any kind of a trap other than a foothold or body gripping or conibear type trap to take fur-bearing animals except as permitted under the provisions of subsection (4). 

(8) To use any portion of any animal or bird protected by the laws of this state as bait for the purpose of trapping any animal in this state. This subsection shall not be construed to prohibit a person from using the carcasses of fur-bearing animals, woodchuck, or red squirrel, lawfully taken, as bait. 

*(9) A trap shall not be set on a beaver dam or lodge unless the trap is totally submerged below the water. * *The only law you have right which I do follow
*
(10) To set a body gripping or conibear type trap larger than 6 inches in diameter on dry land or over frozen submerged bottomlands on publicly owned lands or commercial forest lands as defined by section 51101, Part 511, Commercial Forests, of the Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act, Act No. 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being section 324.51101 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, unless the trap is 4 feet or more above dry ground or the frozen surface of the ice, as applicable, or the trap is placed in a box or similar container in such a manner that the trap is not accessible to dogs. 

(11) To set a trap within 50 feet of any water in zone 1 before October 25, or within 50 feet of any water in zone 2 before November 1, or within 50 feet of any water in zone 3 before November 10, except for the following catching devices:

(a) A duffer-type, egg-type, or similarly designed leghold trap which by construction will selectively capture raccoon. 

(b) A body gripping or conibear trap placed 4 feet or more above the ground. 

(12) To set a catching device designed to hold an animal alive unless any catch is released or removed upon checking the catching device. Restraining type traps and snares designed to hold an animal alive shall be checked at least once daily in Zones 2 and 3 and within a 48 hour period in Zone 1, except as noted in Section 5.52 (8). 

History: Eff. Mar. 31, 1989; Am. 9, 1989, Eff. Sept. 1, 1989; Am. 10, 1990, Eff. Sept. 1, 1990; Am. 4, 1992, Eff. Sept. 1, 1992; Am. 9, 1993, Eff. Sept. 1, 1993; Am. 5, 1994, Eff. Sept. 1, 1994; Am. 7, 1998, Eff. Sept. 1, 1998; Am. 16, 2000, Eff. Oct. 13, 2000; Am. 3, 2001, Eff. Mar. 1, 2001; Am. 9, 2002, Eff. June 7, 2002; Am. 9, 2003, Eff. June 7, 2003; Am. 11, 2004, Eff. June, 5, 2004; Am. 9, 2004, Eff. July 8, 2005.

3.601 Special management areas, trapping regulations.

Sec. 3.601. The following trapping regulations shall be in effect for the management areas listed:

(1) Shiawassee river state game area - Trapping only by permit obtained at the department St. Charles field office.

(2) Shiawassee national wildlife refuge - Trapping only by permit obtained from the refuge manager.

(3) Muskegon state game area - Trapping only by permit obtained at the department Muskegon state game area headquarters. 

(4) Poel Island waterfowl refuge within the Grand Haven state game area - Trapping only by permit obtained at the department Muskegon state game area headquarters.

History: Eff. Mar. 31, 1989; Am. 9, 1989, Eff. Sept. 1, 1989; Am. 15, 1993, Eff. Sept. 1, 1993. 

3.602 Repealed Am. 5, 1994, Eff. Sept. 1, 1996.

Publisher's note: The repealed section pertained to permit to hold furs after close of season.. 

3.603 Transporting legally secured hides or pelts.

Sec. 3.603. Nothing in this order shall be construed as prohibiting the shipping or transporting in any manner or at any time of hides or pelts of fur-bearing animals which have been legally taken and reported as herein provided. 

History: Eff. Mar. 31, 1989.

3.604 Skunks, hunting and trapping, open season, exception; unlawful act.

Sec. 3.604. The open season for taking skunk by hunting or trapping shall be statewide all year except for state park and recreation areas which shall be closed April 1 to September 14. A person shall not possess a live skunk taken in Michigan.

History: Eff. Mar. 31, 1989; Am. 20, 1989, Eff. Sept. 1, 1989.

3.605 Raccoon hunting, seasons; taking raccoons doing or about to do damage, person taking considered permittee.

Sec. 3.605. (1) The open season for taking raccoon by hunting shall be October 1 to January 31, except that the open season for nonresidents taking raccoon by hunting shall be November 15 to January 31. 

(2) A property owner or their designee may take raccoon all year on property owned by the person when raccoons are doing or are about to do damage to the person's property. A person taking a raccoon under the authority of this subsection shall be considered a permittee as defined by section 5.50 of this order. A written permit is not required, and the person shall be authorized to take raccoon all year by otherwise lawful hunting and trapping methods. Notwithstanding the other provisions of this order, a person taking raccoon under the authority of this subsection may take raccoon at night from July 15 to September 14 using artificial lights, similar to the type ordinarily held in the hand or on the person, in possession of an unloaded firearm while following dogs and at the point of kill for the purpose of taking raccoons if using a rimfire firearm .22 caliber or smaller.

History: Eff. Mar. 31, 1989; Am. 9, 1989, Eff. Sept. 1, 1989; Am. 10, 1993, Eff. Sept. 1, 1993; Am. 7, 1998, Eff. Sept. 1, 1998; Am. 2, 2003, Eff. Apr. 12, 2003; Am. 2, 2005, Eff. Mar. 11, 2005; Am. 9, 2005, Eff. July 8, 2005.

3.606 Muskrat, mink, and raccoon trapping, open seasons; closed areas.

Sec. 3.606. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, the open season for taking muskrat and mink by trapping shall be October 25 to January 31 in zone 1, November 1 to January 31 in zone 2, and November 10 to January 31 in zone 3. The trapping season for raccoon shall be October 15 to January 31 in zones 1 and 2, and November 1 to January 31 in zone 3.


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## CaptainNorthwood (Jan 3, 2006)

RealGunslinger said:


> No, and NO. I am not a law man, you are taking offense to everything, I simply pointed out to you and obviously to others that you can't:
> 
> "Molest or disturb the house, hole, nest, burrow or den of a badger, beaver, mink, muskrat or raccoon, whether occupied or not, or molest or destroy a beaver dam, except under a DNR Wildlife Damage Investigation and Control Permit."
> 
> ...


Somebody needs a vacation!!


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## RealGunslinger (Feb 22, 2006)

This is my last post to you, it tires me to argue with someone with the lack of intelligence and common sense you do.

You keep bringing up trapping a run for a muskrat or a place you see a mink HUNTING, that is not against the law.

YOU SEEM TO FORGET I POINTED OUT IT IS ILLEGAL TO TRAP A BADGER OVER HIS HOLE.

that is the only thing I brought up, period. quit throwing other crap into it especially when it is legal and I never mentioned a word about it!!!!!!

As far as you not folowing the guide, at the top of page 34 of the guide, it says "Fur Harvester Rules" Obviouisly you haven't ever gone against the state in a court of law, I fought a case once of a xerox copied flyer that said "guidlines" not even "law", and I had a lawyer, and the judge laughed at me and said the law is the law.

I am done, YOU ARE WRONG, I am right....LOL


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## RealGunslinger (Feb 22, 2006)

and as far as the comments I need a vacation, yes I do, but that also tells me that at least some of you on here are poachers, and that really disappoints me. I thought I could join a site that would have fellow outdoorsmen who upheld the law and were good people, obvious there are some who aren't, maybe this isn't the place for ethical moral people, only the poaching low lifes that ruin it for everyone. I can't believe no one on here can see my point that what Dave suggested is ILLEGAL, unless you all do it and just keep hush hush. Or are afraid to ripple the water like little sheeple. When I have my meeting with the MTA and NTA, I will bring this up to them, along with my local CO.


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

Gun,

Go to Mi.gov and get the LAW. But I guess this goes to show you don't read post. I posted the laws as on the books. Call me a poacher I don't care because I am right and you are the wrong one. Do you need a link.

The guide is a guide. Misprints are all over that guide.

Your trying to make a point that isn't there keep fishing.

Glad to have you here gunslinger but you went out of the way to call me on something that isn't the law and now your the one running. Just admit your the wrong one not me. If I was wrong I would have admitted I was wrong on the law.

Dave


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

For anyone that wants to look this up thereself. Here is the link to the conservation act.


http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Wcao_22612_7.html


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## 3mancubs (Jan 10, 2005)

What if he set the trap without molesting or disturbing the hole?
Would that be considered illegal or unethical? 
What would be considered a "safe" distance from a hole to place a trap?


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

3cubs,

Just find the trapping related laws on the link I post. There is no such law.

Dave


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## CaptainNorthwood (Jan 3, 2006)

You can call me whatever you want, I abide by the law......I've yet to attack a fellow member and nothing Dave said in the original post referred to him setting a den. We all get along but when someone who has under 5 posts jumps on here with no profile filled out and starts hammering on a member with a lot of credibility I find it amusing. Oh and for the record if I was a poacher I would have kept that **** I caught today instead of letting it go.......but you know all of us!!:xzicon_sm Have a great day!



RealGunslinger said:


> and as far as the comments I need a vacation, yes I do, but that also tells me that at least some of you on here are poachers, and that really disappoints me. I thought I could join a site that would have fellow outdoorsmen who upheld the law and were good people, obvious there are some who aren't, maybe this isn't the place for ethical moral people, only the poaching low lifes that ruin it for everyone. I can't believe no one on here can see my point that what Dave suggested is ILLEGAL, unless you all do it and just keep hush hush. Or are afraid to ripple the water like little sheeple. When I have my meeting with the MTA and NTA, I will bring this up to them, along with my local CO.


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## Joe R. (Jan 9, 2002)

Trapping den entrances is legal according to every C.O. that I have talked to. You just can't burrow into the lodge or den. Before people go accussing people as poachers they should know the laws themselves. Too many armchair and keyboard experts out there these days I guess. Have a good day gentlemen.

Joe


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Bull Slinger, I live in Jackson County, know the C.O. very well, and have his cell number. Want to set up a date when the 3 of us can meet?


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## frostbite (Dec 22, 2004)

Realgunslinger,
Meet me out behind the OK Corral. High noon. We'll settle this once and for all cowboy.


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## RealGunslinger (Feb 22, 2006)

I joined this site to learn more about trapping, not argue, I simply pointed out a violation according to the writings of the law.

I haven't posted a profile because I can't figure out how, but I posted my name and phone number and town I lived in so anyone could call me and discuss this, so far no one has, I don't see any of your phone numbers posted. If you want to know my occupation: Biologist, my hobbies, hunting, fishing, trapping, now you know more about me than anyone else on this board, so stop bring up that trivial stuff.

Dave, you obviously passed the chapter 2 section of your rules, here is what it says:


Chapter II -- General Hunting and Trapping Regulations​ 
2.1 Taking of animals; prohibited methods, devices, and weapons; exceptions.
Sec. 2.1. Unless otherwise specified in this order, a person shall not do any of the following: 
(1) Make use of a pit, pitfall, deadfall, scaffold, raised platform, tree, cage, snare, trap, net, baited hook, or similar device, or a drug, poison, anti-coagulant, smoke, gas, explosive, weasel, ferret, fitchew, crossbow, arbalest, spear, or mechanical device, for the purpose of taking an animal or driving an animal out of their hole or home. For the purpose of this order, a mechanical device shall not be construed to mean a firearm, slingshot, or bow and arrow. When used in this order, "raised platform" means a horizontal surface constructed or manufactured by a person that increases the field of vision of a person using the horizontal surface beyond the field of vision that would normally be attained by that person standing on the ground. 
(2) Use in taking an animal, or have in the person's possession in an area frequented by animals, a semiautomatic shotgun or rifle other than .22 caliber rimfire, capable of holding more than 6 shells at 1 time in the magazine and barrel combined, or use a cartridge containing a tracer bullet, or a cartridge containing an explosive bullet, or a firearm capable of firing more than 1 shot with a single pull or activation of the trigger. 
(3) During the 5 days immediately preceding November 15, transport or possess in an area frequented by deer a rifle or shotgun with buckshot, slug load, ball load, or cut shell. A person may transport a rifle or shotgun to or from a hunting camp if the rifle or shotgun is unloaded and securely encased or carried in the trunk of a vehicle. This section shall not prohibit a resident who holds a fur harvester's license from carrying a .22 caliber rimfire firearm while hunting or checking a trap line during the open season for hunting or trapping fur-bearing animals. 
(4) Use in hunting, or possess afield in an area inhabited by wild birds and animals within the "shotgun, handgun, black-powder firearms only area" from November 15 to November 30, or use to take a deer during any firearm deer season in the "shotgun, handgun, black-powder firearms only area," a firearm other than: 
(a) A shotgun with a smooth or rifled barrel. 
(b) A .35 caliber or larger pistol capable of holding no more than 9 shells at 1 time in the barrel and magazine combined and loaded with straight-walled cartridges. 
(c) A muzzle-loading rifle or black-powder pistol loaded with black-powder or a commercially manufactured black-powder substitute. 
(5) Injure, destroy, or rob the eggs of birds protected by the laws of this state or this order, or molest, harass, or annoy those birds upon their nests. 
(6) Possess or use an apparatus known as a silencer on a gun while hunting in this state. 
(7) Make use of a sink box or battery as these devices are defined by the United States fish and wildlife service. 
(8) Set afire or assist in setting afire a marshland or other lands for the purpose of driving out wild birds or wild animals, or take or attempt to take a wild bird or wild animal so driven out of a marshland or other land. 
(9) Take any animal at any time other than during the hunting hours and open seasons established in this order except as may otherwise be provided in chapter VI. 
(10) Take in 1 day more than the daily limit, or possess at 1 time more than the possession limit, or possess on the first day of the open season more than the daily limit, or possess more than the season limit of any animal. 
(*11) Destroy, disturb, or molest at any time any bear, beaver, muskrat, raccoon, squirrel, mink, badger, or rabbit house, hole, burrow, nest, dam, or den which may be used by such animals. *
*[/COLOR]* 
To me that is plain as day, saying you can't take an animal from it's den or hole.

If I am wrong I will apoligize and say I am wrong, I have a call into the district 8 Lt of CO's for clarification. I am waiting for his call back.

To be continued....

I also see why people want to attack me for calling your buddy out on a game violation, you guys are all friends here, and I am a newbie, I have no hard feelings, just trying to make sure people are aware of the law.


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## RealGunslinger (Feb 22, 2006)

I just had my unbiased wife read the rules who knows nothing about hunting or trapping and asked her to interpret them. In her words, "You can't trap or kill an animal from it's home".

and Freepop, I would love to talk to your CO, have him call me at 269-751-2024, I want to get this resolved, either I am right and you are all wrong, or you are all right and I am wrong. I know CO's interpret rules differently, so I am getting as many CO's opinions as I can.

I wonder how many of you will apoligize to me if I am right? somehow I doubt none of you.


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