# Tri color setter female



## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

kek25 said:


> Why in the world would a dog buyer be expected to hone up on dog genetics? It's a lot easier to hone up on reputable breeders and the genetics (and color choices) will fall in line.
> 
> The responsibility for breeding dogs for the betterment of any given breed rests squarely on the shoulders of the breeders, not the buyers.


I think we are interpreting genetics differently. I wasn't clear in my post. I'm not suggesting that buyers study X and Y chromosomes prior to purchase.

I am suggesting that it's important for buyers to broaden their understanding of the (anticipated, planned, hoped for) traits that stem from genetics. Color is one of those. I think the whole point is that a discriminating litter owner (like Dr. McDonald) recoils at the notion of one of his pups going to someone who cold called him and his leading question was color.

I agree the breeders have a big responsibility. But, so do field trial judges. Heck, even forums like this where new folks can learn a thing or two helps (OR HURTS) them refine their understanding of what they would like to see in their next dog. That drives demand for a certain type which WILL get supplied by the marketplace.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Flash01 said:


> Threads (and attitudes) like these are one of the reasons we are always wondering why there are so few "bird dog" folks. It was not too long ago many of us might have started looking for a dog with that question.
> 
> 
> Flash, My experience is that one of the primary reason that there are so few bird dog folks is that some people get dogs that have issues that prevent them from being the bird dog and pet that they assumed they were buying. They get discouraged and move on to another interest. Read aggression, dysplasia, hyperactivity, chronic allergies. In my practice and in my contact with other bird dog owners I can honestly say I've never run into anyone that was getting out of bird dogs based on there choice of color in there dog.
> ...


 
my 2 cents.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

All I can think about is my situation... my wife wants our next setter to be orange and white... so my next dog will likely be O&W. I hope I remember this thread so I don't have to read about it.


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## Chris Raymond (Jul 15, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> Omega58 is the new Sheriff in town....


Who or what is an Omega58?


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Scott Berg said:


> Keith,
> 
> I think the presumption is a cold or relatively cold call. Again, education is not changing the situation for 95% of the people who have a specific color/marking requirements.
> 
> SRB


That's interesting to me, Scott. In you experience, of those who cold call for a specific color that you actually have available, what percentage would you estimate pull the trigger and make the purchase?


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## aimus1 (Feb 28, 2011)

I own...or should I say... my wife owns a B&W male pup out of Mac's "Reed" shag with another local veterinarians female "Hukah". Night before last he liquid s**t all over in his crate.... spent a couple hours as a tricolor.:yikes: I prefer him as a B&W. 
He's about 8 months and coming right along. He'll hunt the king up in god's country most days this season. OK with you Mac?


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Color should not be a consideration but please note the greatest setters of all time are O/W????
Although I like the aesthetics of Tri's I also think there is more generic diversity in the mix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

I'd be most pleased to contribute to derailing the thread at this time. We as setter owners have the opportunity to morph this many different ways. I say we give it a go so that we surpass the posts and views of The Spaniel Corner.

I've noticed more O & W setters south of the Mason Dixon line. And more B & W and Tri North of the M.D. Line. Heat tolerance? Grouse specialist? Covey Dogs?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Chris Raymond said:


> Who or what is an Omega58?


His name is Randal Randy Carmoney! He is the new Weim police and he comes armed with good dawgs.


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## aimus1 (Feb 28, 2011)

Laphroaig said:


> I'd be most pleased to contribute to derailing the thread at this time. We as setter owners have the opportunity to morph this many different ways. I say we give it a go so that we surpass the posts and views of The Spaniel Corner.
> 
> I've noticed more O & W setters south of the Mason Dixon line. And more B & W and Tri North of the M.D. Line. Heat tolerance? Grouse specialist? Covey Dogs?


O&W are bigger running!!:evil:


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

BTW Berg I was just razzing you.
Although there are always exceptions at one point in time I did notice most of the setters in the woods game had some color to them. I have had a few orange and whites out of southwin mike and tricky dick rock and a few I produced and they were all great dogs. As far as looks my favorite dog is an old time NSTRA dog Mill Pond Tom. He was a white blocky dog and a real beauty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Actually I have an O/W derby with a handler right now and hoping for great things out of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

slammer said:


> BTW Berg I was just razzing you.
> Although there are always exceptions at one point in time I did notice most of the setters in the woods game had some color to them. I have had a few orange and whites out of southwin mike and tricky dick rock and a few I produced and they were all great dogs. As far as looks my favorite dog is an old time NSTRA dog Mill Pond Tom. He was a white blocky dog and a real beauty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Harry,

I have absolutely no preference where color is concerned. We have much more important attributes to consider in terms of breeding. So, I really don't care but I am not sure what your point is here. A high percentage of the absolute elite producer and major circuit Champions have been O&W. Why we are talking about NSTRA dogs in the same context as major circuit Champions I don't know.

SRB


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

kek25 said:


> That's interesting to me, Scott. In you experience, of those who cold call for a specific color that you actually have available, what percentage would you estimate pull the trigger and make the purchase?


Keith,

I really dont know because most of our pups are sold in advance of being whelped. Even when there are pups still available, I can't tell them which specific pup will be available because we don't have clients pick until they are 8 weeks old. We can't get a good idea on conformation and relative boldness until then. We also have a lot of repeat buyers or just guys that have really been around the block (so to speak). Many of those people are from all over the country. They give us their criteria for picking a pup and have us select for them. Ironically, the individuals most likely to do this are the most experiences buyers. Again, waiting until they are 8 weeks old helps us select pups we think best fit the individual buyers specific preferences even within a given litter. Remember many of them are half-way or all the way across the country. 

We also keep at least one pup out of every litter to evaluate for breeding and we dont want to select our pup(s) until the latest possible date. So, these factors basically take us out of the do you have X readily available clients most of the year. 

SRB


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

If looks didnt matter we would all have subarus.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Merimac said:


> If looks didnt matter we would all have subarus.


Fact!


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

The way i see it is you cant gaurantee anything about a pup, as far as ability, nose, stamina, etc. What you can gaurantee is the color, that will not change. i will take my chances on a well "painted" puppy and hope for the best. I rarely see an ugly dog make it to the top to be studded out.

This* assuming* its a well bred litter from proven dogs.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> Harry,
> 
> I have absolutely no preference where color is concerned. We have much more important attributes to consider in terms of breeding. So, I really don't care but I am not sure what your point is here. A high percentage of the absolute elite producer and major circuit Champions have been O&W. Why we are talking about NSTRA dogs in the same context as major circuit Champions I don't know.
> 
> SRB



Come on Scott, you're better than that, I wish more respect was given from Fun Trials all the way up to the Biggest Championships. It takes guts to bring a dog to the line in any venue. I know a few NSTRA guys that have great wild bird dogs, and I've seen competition dogs I'd never hunt over.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Ericgmci said:


> I rarely see an ugly dog make it to the top to be studded out.


Coveyrise Offlee Amazin'.


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

Steelheadfred said:


> Come on Scott, you're better than that, I wish more respect was given from Fun Trials all the way up to the Biggest Championships. It takes guts to bring a dog to the line in any venue. I know a few NSTRA guys that have great wild bird dogs, and I've seen competition dogs I'd never hunt over.


Guts? Perhaps. But in addition to that it takes TRAINING. SPECIALIZED TRAINING. 

Each venue has their goals and objectives. To be competitive, you MUST train to fit the venue. That specialized effort to train to be competitive and a consistant winner can have an impact on wild bird hunting, perceived/inflated opinions of breeding worthiness and proper/improper suitability for the intended purposes of the inexperienced.

Respect for all trials? You bet. But a picture of a blue ribbon with its smiling owner holding up head and tail is NOT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL MOMENT. People need to understand that.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Flash01 said:


> I dont think you do. I will try again.
> 
> You suggested a NSTRA guy would value "a little more natural retrieve" over "endurance blood".
> 
> ...


Very good point. However, it presumes NSTRA dogs are better natural retrievers. That is not consistent with what we have found. I would say if any of the lines are better natural retrievers it would be the TMS line. BTW ... Sunrise was started as a hunting dog and was a great natural retriever as was his hall of fame sun Hick's rising sun. At least that's what their owners and trainers told me. I did not observe this for myself.

The video below is a 6 month old line bred TMS dog. Nothing was every done with this pup short of throwing something for him and this is not at all unusual. We broke this pup by 12 months old and placed him to a NSTRA client who already had a pup from the same sire. That pup won the first NSTRA event he was entered in at 15 months old.

*Lucky *


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

Flash01 said:


> Let me ask it a different way, why would a NSTRA guy not be interested in the dog "proven endurance blood"?




He might be. 

I'm no longer a NSTRA guy. But when I farted around with it or if I were to get damned serious about winning...not just running in them, I still don't think genetic endurance would play a role in my thinking. Conditioning my prospect, yes. If you really want my opinion, I don't think a choke bore nose would factor in my wish list either. I'd most likely have a different list of priorities if I wanted to be consistently competitive in NSTRA. I firmly believe the blood for that is readily available right here in Michigan.

Grouse trial prospect? An entirely different wish list for that.

AA Open horseback quail dog? An entirely different wish list for that.

It ain't that complicated. I have no idea why it's so controversial. To my way of thinking its so basic and obvious.


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

Laphroaig said:


> He might be.
> 
> I'm no longer a NSTRA guy. But when I farted around with it or if I were to get damned serious about winning...not just running in them, I still don't think genetic endurance would play a role in my thinking. Conditioning my prospect, yes. If you really want my opinion, I don't think a choke bore nose would factor in my wish list either. I'd most likely have a different list of priorities if I wanted to be consistently competitive in NSTRA. I firmly believe the blood for that is readily available right here in Michigan.
> 
> ...


This is where most guys don't understand NSTRA. Yes a weekend trial is a half hour brace. A weekend trial is just a training day. A national trial you could run 4 half hour braces and one hour brace on Saturday. Endurance and conditioning plays a major role in winning a big trial. Just like any other trial the final day separates the men from the boys.


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

Scott Berg said:


> The two most commonly used grouse trial studs in the past 20 years I would think are Grouse Ridge Reroy and Pennstar. Both have just a very small touch of O&W. I would not call them ugly but they are nothing close to typical tri-color markings.
> 
> Color has waaaaay less influence in pointers. I have seen strut and Shell creek coin in person and they are not marked all that well but they are handsome physical specimens. I thought several of the top studs Ferrel Miller has had have been rather unattractive and those dogs were used a ton.
> 
> ...


Scott I'm not just talking about Tri colors. I have o/w setters. However I can't stand pink around the eyes and nose. That's an ugly dog to me. I see b/w and tris the same, that are marked lightly and have the pink skin, still drives me nuts. Obviously doesn't affect performance just my preference. Reroy was ugly to me, but was built like a brick crap house. My point is everyone has some preference how is anyone wrong for liking what they like? I agree w Mac's post but really does it matter of someone wants and prefers a tricolor pup? For all we know it would have been a house pet that would never see a bitd


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Laphroaig said:


> If you really want my opinion,



No Just stop typing


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

Ericgmci said:


> This is where most guys don't understand NSTRA. Yes a weekend trial is a half hour brace. A weekend trial is just a training day. A national trial you could run 4 half hour braces and one hour brace on Saturday. Endurance and conditioning plays a major role in winning a big trial. Just like any other trial the final day separates the men from the boys.


Eric, please don't take this the wrong way. Have you ever ridden on any braces at the Ames plantation? Have you seen these type specimens run for three hours? I do not mean this disrespectfully, but those dogs are like the Michael Phelps of the dog competition. Endurance is more than conditioning. 

4, half hour braces in a birdfield is not the same as a three hour brace in the setting above. I have no desire to start a shyte storm. It's just not the same thing....sorry.


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

Merimac said:


> No Just stop typing



Not on your life. Put me on ignore if it's that bad. Look up the word Ad hominem. It always a last resort. I'd be glad to have a discussion on the merits. Not interested in personal cheap shots.


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm under no delusion that I expect everyone to be able to read this and extrapolate that there is a genetic, physiological component to endurance beyond good conditioning. It's worth a shot though. And no Merimac, I'm not advocating you breed to a sled dog.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080925072436.htm


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## hogmansp (Dec 17, 2011)

Good luck with your litter Mac


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

Laphroaig said:


> Eric, please don't take this the wrong way. Have you ever ridden on any braces at the Ames plantation? Have you seen these type specimens run for three hours? I do not mean this disrespectfully, but those dogs are like the Michael Phelps of the dog competition. Endurance is more than conditioning.
> 
> 4, half hour braces in a birdfield is not the same as a three hour brace in the setting above. I have no desire to start a shyte storm. It's just not the same thing....sorry.


Ive never been there nor did I say it was the same. You stated that endurance would not be on your list for a shoot to retrieve dog. I'm saying you're wrong which you are. I don't try to compare an AA dog to a STR dog. I know that an AA dog that can compete for those long braces is a freak!

It's annoying that you continue to compare different trial games. I could go on and on about why an AA dog would suck at STR. That's not what they're developed and groomed for nor is a STR dog groomed to run the countryside at several hundred yards.


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

Ericgmci said:


> Ive never been there nor did I say it was the same. You stated that endurance would not be on your list for a shoot to retrieve dog. I'm saying you're wrong which you are. I don't try to compare an AA dog to a STR dog. I know that an AA dog that can compete for those long braces is a freak!
> 
> It's annoying that you continue to compare different trial games. I could go on and on about why an AA dog would suck at STR. That's not what they're developed and groomed for nor is a STR dog groomed to run the countryside at several hundred yards.



Eric, I apologize for putting words in your mouth.

But at the same time I'm entitled to assemble a list of traits I'd like to see for myself if I decided to compete in NSTRA aren't I?

I'm sorry you are annoyed at the comparison. Especially in light of the fact that your last sentence is 100 % consistent with my entire point. Dogs are bred and groomed for specific trial venues. I don't understand the defensiveness, I really don't.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Your point is not accurate. Dogs from every venue to include gun dogs come from studs that are horseback shooting dog or AA champs. Breeding in general is not venue specific
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

slammer said:


> Your point is not accurate. Dogs from every venue to include gun dogs come from studs that are horseback shooting dog or AA champs. Breeding in general is not venue specific
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Here is a list of the current standings of the Michael Seminatore standings. Please list the AA sire and Dams of these dogs.

I suppose I don't need to go to the NAVHDA champions and ask to show the AA sires and dams there too do I?

River's Edge Sadie
Quail Trap Sadie
Terharr's Elvis
Moss Meadow Traveler
Cooper Mountain Pepsi
Wintergreen Max
Bloom's Ole Dollar
Texas Cherry Bomb
Upper Cover Desert Devil
Terharr's Rogue
Mr. Ted Stokely
Upper Cove Billy Babe
Grouse Woods Reese
Field Stone Clyde
True Patriot
Long Gone Boston
Chip's Uncle Buzzy
Old Glory River
Grouse Ridge Force


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

So Mac,

Are you planning a litter next year?

If you do, let me know if you have any three color dogs, preferably a nice tri color head. And I really don't want one of those half colored heads, a nice full colored head with three colors would be real nice.


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

Laphroaig said:


> Eric, I apologize for putting words in your mouth.
> 
> But at the same time I'm entitled to assemble a list of traits I'd like to see for myself if I decided to compete in NSTRA aren't I?
> 
> Agreed. Why don't you assemble this dog an compete in something? Mi region is always looking for new members


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## ae1103 (Mar 3, 2009)

Scott Berg said:


> Very good point. However, it presumes NSTRA dogs are better natural retrievers. That is not consistent with what we have found. I would say if any of the lines are better natural retrievers it would be the TMS line. BTW ... Sunrise was started as a hunting dog and was a great natural retriever as was his hall of fame sun Hick's rising sun. At least that's what their owners and trainers told me. I did not observe this for myself.
> 
> The video below is a 6 month old line bred TMS dog. Nothing was every done with this pup short of throwing something for him and this is not at all unusual. We broke this pup by 12 months old and placed him to a NSTRA client who already had a pup from the same sire. That pup won the first NSTRA event he was entered in at 15 months old.
> 
> *Lucky **http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3mUe5IEnDE*



I have a linebred TMS dog and he don't retrieve ****. Just saying.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Laphroaig said:


> Here is a list of the current standings of the Michael Seminatore standings. Please list the AA sire and Dams of these dogs.
> 
> I suppose I don't need to go to the NAVHDA champions and ask to show the AA sires and dams there too do I?
> 
> ...


That is a narrow sample. Off the top of my head I can think of direct sons of TMS running NSTRA, Ridge Creek Cody coming from walking dog, many of the areas top GSP's producing walking from hb and vise versa, top walking pointers in the area coming directly from top hb dogs. 
Getting back to the original topic which was people definitely care about aesthetics when it comes to dogs. Do you breed for color? Of course not. Do people buy based on color? Of course they do. Everyone has a personal preference. Although I like color truth is I try and get a dog as close in all characteristics as their parents including coat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laphroaig (Dec 13, 2011)

Ericgmci said:


> Laphroaig said:
> 
> 
> > Eric, I apologize for putting words in your mouth.
> ...


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

I do agree to the point that you have a better chance of getting a dog that is comfortable to handle from foot for the average guy. I went with Scooby twice because he was out of SJR but was biddable enough for me. These dogs are as talented as the "groomed" Long Gone dog that I had.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Ericgmci said:


> Scott I'm not just talking about Tri colors. I have o/w setters. However I can't stand pink around the eyes and nose. That's an ugly dog to me. I see b/w and tris the same, that are marked lightly and have the pink skin, still drives me nuts. Obviously doesn't affect performance just my preference. Reroy was ugly to me, but was built like a brick crap house. My point is everyone has some preference how is anyone wrong for liking what they like? I agree w Mac's post but really does it matter of someone wants and prefers a tricolor pup? For all we know it would have been a house pet that would never see a bitd


Eric,

This is a poor medium for this type of discussion and I must be doing a really poor job of articulating my point. You can't imagine how much rigmarole we go through making sure everyone gets the pup that fits their preferences. We ship alot of pups across the country and we take literally hundreds of photos/yr to support the process of clients selecting their pups. We move anyone to the next litter or refund them if there color preferenc is not available. So, am I supportive of people getting exactly whatever it is they want? You better believe it.

Specific to you post. You had said that only good looking studs were widely used. That's why I gave the examples I did. There definitely are studs that are used based on looks but the very top studs are the absolute elite of our breed. I gave examples across all trial types. Somehow Harry turned this into an AA vs a cover dog thing which has absoltely nothing whatsover to do with the point.

To be clear, my comments had nothing to do with addressing should clients pick on color. There is no question they will and as I said I have gone to great lengths to support this. The point I have been making here is that our breed would have suffered substantially had these great dogs been overlooked because of color and markings. And, demand will drive the actions of breeders. Therefore, Mac is absolutely correct. This focus on markings (including among breeders) is bad for the breed. 

SRB


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