# Grouse gun



## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

TimBuckTwo said:


> I have always liked the nostalgia of a side by side, but never thought I would buy one.
> 
> This past weekend I was at Bald Mountain shooting range and I picked up a side by side to take a look. Felt good, weight was nice, well balanced. Then I shouldered it and swung it... Immediately fell in love with this gun. It was instant. It was a Beretta 20 gauge with 28" barrels. This gun was $3k though, so it's not in the budget. My graduate school gift to myself next year is going to be a grouse gun, and this past Saturday I had only considered O/U's.
> 
> My questions is, where in Michigan can I find an good stock of side by sides so I can get my hands on a few to see how they feel?


Fieldsport, Traverse City
bring cash


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## TimBuckTwo (Jan 3, 2009)

Gamekeeper said:


> Fieldsport, Traverse City
> bring cash


Yeah, ideally I'll get a fitting at Fieldsport when it's time to cough up the cash. In the mean time it would be nice to gawk at a few locally in SE MI. There is a place in Walled Lake that I had been before on PGA drive, I believe it was called Great Lakes Sporting Arms or something close to that. It has changed names to Pacific Sporting Arms East, no sure what the circumstances of the name change was. When I went there before they had some very nice guns.


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## Timber (Jan 1, 2009)

Fowlersduckhunter said:


> My 870 wingmaster 12 with a full choke. Deadly on pats ducks and geese.


That steel shot must be doing wonders to that full choke?


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

It really doesn't matter, I don't get in the woods enough, can't find the grouse when I do, and Max just get's fed up sits down under a tree and pours himself a cold one. I do carry a 686 20 ga. because it's light and I look like I should know what I am doing. Also Max can hit something with it every once in awhile.


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## zig (Aug 5, 2009)

Not to get too far off track, but did anybody ever go to Leo's custom guns in Library, Pennsylvania before it closed? Man, that place was absolutely unbelievable. I got a matching pair of O/U's there years ago. It's closed, but the few times I went there, holy cow.......really a something to see.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a 20ga Stevens, and then spend the rest of my money on shooting lessons, targets, and cartridges. 

You'll get much more benefit for the money, and when your skills/experience level grow to where you'd like to add more style, your resources will be increased, so you'll have more choices.

I can't overstate the benefit of practice to a beginner. You work so hard to generate a shooting opportunity, improve your chances of connecting via practice.


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## DoubleJay (Aug 9, 2009)

Ray Adams said:


> First let me say that I'm not annoyed by the question, but since it's late and I'm short on time right now, I'm not going whole-hog on this. That said, shotguns mean _a lot _more to me than simply a tool to shoot birds with...
> 
> Depending on the gun of course, shotguns are capsuls for memories of times past, friends passed, etc. They are tangible objects that keep our experiences and family hunting legacies alive. Pretty neat that they can be put up when necessary and taken down in a quiet time when the situation permits.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more.....there is nothing, not even an heirloom fly rod, that brings back memories and connects me to the sport better than an old shotgun....

Jay


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

12 ga. Benelli montefeltro cylinder choke and my newest addition a Browning superposed o/u special steel 20 ga 26 inch barrel choked skeet/skeet.Still getting use to it as the gun comes up and swings fast.Still working on my timing with it.Starting to get better with it Quite a difference between the two


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## Double d's (Apr 23, 2010)

Winchester model 12 in 16 ga. I bought on GB. Came from a collector on the east Coast that had passed. I enjoy carrying it afield.


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## Ray Adams (Feb 17, 2006)

Gamekeeper said:


> If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a 20ga Stevens, and then spend the rest of my money on shooting lessons, targets, and cartridges.
> 
> You'll get much more benefit for the money, and when your skills/experience level grow to where you'd like to add more style, your resources will be increased, so you'll have more choices.
> 
> I can't overstate the benefit of practice to a beginner. You work so hard to generate a shooting opportunity, improve your chances of connecting via practice.


I agree with this sentiment - in part...

First, practice is great, assuming it's the _right_ practice. On the flip side, you could shoot through cases of shells, and just reinforce bad habits and poor fundamentals.

Assuming you already possess solid fundamentals (proper gun mount, hard focus on the target, etc.) burning through lots of shells _can_ help, no doubt. However, things like practicing proper mount at home with an empty gun are equally important.

If the gun in question is properly balanced and fits, has chokes that are relatively open, and triggers that aren't too heavy, a 20 gauge Stevens could certainly fit the bill.

In addition to all that though, there's the notion of field work - an entirely different equation that goes hand-in-hand with shooting. Ever known anyone who rarely scores high at the skeet/trap/sporting clays field, but drops birds like it's his job? It's true, breaking clays and killing birds _are_ related, but only about as close as step kids. In other words, they live under the same roof, but that's where the similarites stop.

Field craft such as learning how to navigate cover, where to stand when a flush is imminent, etc., are equally important as shooting when it comes to bird hunting. Then again, that's another post altogether, so back to the topic at hand...

My recommendation is to buy the best gun you can afford - there's pride in ownership to consider too. That doesn't mean you need a Holland and Holland, but don't buy a clunker just because it's cheap either.

Find the best fit you can. Fieldsport can be a great option, but it's also pricey and beyond the means of some. As an alternative, you could experiment with shims, pads, stock bending until you find what's comfortable for you. By the time you're done with all this tinkering though, you'll likely exceed the cost of a professional fitting. Trust me, I've been this route.

Get a good coach (shooting school, or a friend or relative who really knows his stuff.). Establish the proper gun mount and practice daily at home with a dry gun to build muscle memory. Remember, the professionals say up to 80% of all misses are related to poor gun mount.

THEN, and only then, start burning some powder with clays.

Finally, head to the field, find some birds (hopefully with a decent dog) and see what happens. Remember, this is a progression. Folks who really excel at this sport invest tons of time - not just with guns and shooting, but training dogs, walking the miles, map research, learning cover types, etc.

Ultimately, don't take yourself or your shooting too seriously. Be safe, but remember to have fun too.

Ray


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## mark.n.chip (Jun 16, 2007)

TimBuckTwo said:


> I have always liked the nostalgia of a side by side, but never thought I would buy one.
> 
> This past weekend I was at Bald Mountain shooting range and I picked up a side by side to take a look. Felt good, weight was nice, well balanced. Then I shouldered it and swung it... Immediately fell in love with this gun. It was instant. It was a Beretta 20 gauge with 28" barrels. This gun was $3k though, so it's not in the budget. My graduate school gift to myself next year is going to be a grouse gun, and this past Saturday I had only considered O/U's.
> 
> My questions is, where in Michigan can I find an good stock of side by sides so I can get my hands on a few to see how they feel?


Fieldsports in Traverse City has a great selection of side by sides


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## troutchops (Apr 15, 2005)

Ray Adams said:


> I agree with this sentiment - in part...
> 
> First, practice is great, assuming it's the _right_ practice. On the flip side, you could shoot through cases of shells, and just reinforce bad habits and poor fundamentals.
> 
> ...


It's been awhile since I've read something of this quality on Michigan Sportsman. Seems as if all the older, knowledgeable members have moved on from here.

Well said Ray.


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## upperhand (Mar 27, 2015)

I agree on the memory factor. My first shotgun was a New England Firearms single shot 20 gauge. Basically the cheapest POS you could buy. I had so much confidence in that gun! I moved away for 13 yrs and the gun got lost. I don't know what happened to it but would probably still be hunting with it. I've bought several shotguns since I moved back to Michigan and still miss that junker! Money can't buy memories or put birds in your bag.


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## Jt0530 (Jan 3, 2013)

upperhand said:


> I agree on the memory factor. My first shotgun was a New England Firearms single shot 20 gauge. Basically the cheapest POS you could buy. I had so much confidence in that gun! I moved away for 13 yrs and the gun got lost. I don't know what happened to it but would probably still be hunting with it. I've bought several shotguns since I moved back to Michigan and still miss that junker! Money can't buy memories or put birds in your bag.


That's funny because a New England Firearms 20 gauge single shot was my first gun as well. I actually carried it last weekend while working with my shorthair on some woodcock and took a couple birds down with it. My dad bought me that gun when I was 13 and I still enjoy it today.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

Personally I'd rather catch a wormy large-mouth bass off a public dock with a cane pole, a hook full of nightcrawlers and a bobber than kill a grouse or woodcock with anything other than a shotgun with two barrels.








.

9mm Hi-Power


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## goblue20 (Sep 1, 2010)

Ray Adams said:


> Field craft such as learning how to navigate cover, where to stand when a flush is imminent, etc., are equally important as shooting when it comes to bird hunting. Then again, that's another post altogether, so back to the topic at hand...
> 
> Ray


Bingo. Buy whatever feels best to you. Learning where to park the truck will yield far more grouse than a particular gun.


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## TimBuckTwo (Jan 3, 2009)

goblue20 said:


> Bingo. Buy whatever feels best to you. Learning where to park the truck will yield far more grouse than a particular gun.


Respectfully disagree. My lack of accurate shooting was never more apparent than my trip this year. It was a down year for flushes, but I was in the birds. Not that a good cover holding birds isn't important, but quality shooting is at least equally important as cover IMO.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> Personally I'd rather catch a wormy large-mouth bass off a public dock with a cane pole, a hook full of nightcrawlers and a bobber than kill a grouse or woodcock with anything other than a shotgun with two barrels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/media/new-bernie-first-blood.116711/full











Vencinzio Bernardelli Gamecock Premier 

My new favorite grouse gun ..............
NB


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## goblue20 (Sep 1, 2010)

TimBuckTwo said:


> Respectfully disagree. My lack of accurate shooting was never more apparent than my trip this year. It was a down year for flushes, but I was in the birds. Not that a good cover holding birds isn't important, but quality shooting is at least equally important as cover IMO.


I don't disagree with you. For a new hunter though, they'll miss out on more birds by not ever getting them to the gun than they will by missing birds, in most cases. If someone is experienced in locating productive covers and consistently finding birds than sure, shooting ability plays more of a factor. I'm not saying shooting ability isn't important, but I think knowing where to locate birds is far more important at first.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

goblue20 said:


> I don't disagree with you. For a new hunter though, they'll miss out on more birds by not ever getting them to the gun than they will by missing birds, in most cases. If someone is experienced in locating productive covers and consistently finding birds than sure, shooting ability plays more of a factor. I'm not saying shooting ability isn't important, but I think knowing where to locate birds is far more important at first.


You can pay someone for that.
OP asked what kind of shotgun, preferably a SXS.

He's miles better off buying a cheap SXS at a pawnshop, and spending the balance of his account learning to hit what he shoots at.
It's a lifetime investment (learning to shoot adequately), whereas, guides and guns are purely a temporary financial upset.

Just tell the person you choose to take lessons from what you are trying to accomplish. If they are a competitive skeet shooter, find someone else. Sustained lead is a poor technique for shooting grouse.

Cylinder bore, an 1.25oz of #9's, and gas money, salves a lot of wounds.


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## Ray Adams (Feb 17, 2006)

NATTY BUMPO said:


> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/media/new-bernie-first-blood.116711/full
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wowza. That'd be my favorite too..


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## goblue20 (Sep 1, 2010)

Gamekeeper said:


> You can pay someone for that.
> OP asked what kind of shotgun, preferably a SXS.
> 
> He's miles better off buying a cheap SXS at a pawnshop, and spending the balance of his account learning to hit what he shoots at.
> ...


I know I'm getting a bit off topic and I may not have explained myself well.

I mentioned I don't think the gun really matters. He can buy whatever he can afford and feels the best to him. I've killed birds with a 300 dollar Springfield sxs and I've missed birds carrying a citori.

You can surely pay a guide, but I think we just view things a little differently. I'd rather invest my time and money in getting myself to productive bird covers and thus more birds. Most guys can't afford a guide every time they want to grouse hunt.

Don't get me wrong, shooting ability is still important and a worthwhile investment like you mentioned. The gun doesn't matter so much though.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

No worries here.
People come to the upland life from many directions.


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## zig (Aug 5, 2009)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> 12 ga. Browning Super-Light Superposed, solid rib, 26 1/2" barrels, weight 6 1/2 lbs., built 1961/62, 7/8 oz. hand loads:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know it's an old post, but I never really read through the whole thread. The superposed is an unbelievable upland gun. I hunted with an older guy for years, no longer with us, and he had a superposed, I think about the age of yours. Man, there was just something about that gun..... I loved it.


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## GADWALL21 (Feb 23, 2008)

Beretta Silver Pigeon II with modified & improved cylinder.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

Grouse Hunter said:


> 20ga montefeltro with 24 " barrel


Would you mind telling me how you are liking that gun for the grouse woods? I have had my eyes on it for a while now, in that exact configuration (20g with 24" barrel). 

I have a Benelli SBE2 and love it, love their customer service as well. I also bought my father the Montefeltro chambered in 12g for his 60th a few years ago and he loves it, and I've shot it a few times and really like it. 

That 24" Montefeltro 20g weighs about 5.3lbs I believe, which I have not found a much lighter gun. Doesn't seem like you save much in weight going to a 28g (requires stepping up to the Ultra Light).


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## overthelimit (Aug 30, 2013)

Nobody uses a 48 AL 20ga anymore?


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## Setter (Mar 20, 2001)

overthelimit said:


> Nobody uses a 48 AL 20ga anymore?


I still use my 48 AL


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Gamekeeper said:


> You can pay someone for that.
> OP asked what kind of shotgun, preferably a SXS.
> 
> He's miles better off buying a cheap SXS at a pawnshop,
> Cylinder bore, an 1.25oz of #9's, and gas money, salves a lot of wounds.


Yikes 1.25 loads will kick like a Michigan Mile. My Browning Ultra XT would handle 1.25 loads well because it weighs 10 pounds, However most would not want to carry that gun in the grouse cover.
By the way for the un motivated where would you purchase 1.25 9's ?


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

GDG, One of the most successful grouse killers of modern times recommended that set up. 
The novice gunner that is a poor shot, (most are) isn't going to be concerned with 24lbs of recoil.

They don't get that many shots, and they are very deeply concentrated on it when they do shoot.
And, they seldom have anything to compare it to.


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## Ray Adams (Feb 17, 2006)

gundogguy said:


> Yikes 1.25 loads will kick like a Michigan Mile. My Browning Ultra XT would handle 1.25 loads well because it weighs 10 pounds, However most would not want to carry that gun in the grouse cover.
> By the way for the un motivated where would you purchase 1.25 9's ?


Thinking you'd have to hand-load that, but I agree, fearsome recoil for sure.

Though I'm not a fan of "magnum" loads for grouse/woodcock, I concur about #9's (at least for early season) as a very efficient reaper of birds. Like I said, I'd be apt to stick with the standard loads of 3/4 oz 28 gauge, 7/8 oz 20 gauge, 1 oz 16 gauge, and 1 1/8 oz 12 gauge.

My 16 weighs just over 6 lbs., and my 28 weighs just under 6 lbs. Recoil is very manageable with those loads.

Ray


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

It's all about the killing, and making a big pile of dead birds with the fewest number of shots. A big, dense enough, pattern can provide that. Even for a novice.

FWIW, without practice, many people can't hit their ass with either hand carrying a 5lb shotgun. excluding limb swts, ground sluicing, and road birds, of course.

I'm not sure where the book contributors ( I don't remember if it was Prawdzik or Woolner, that mentioned that load, unfortunately) acquired them.

I'm pretty much a 5/8 to 7/8 load guy at about 1200fps, myself. OTC stuff by the case.

I just love the expression, "It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian". PC naysayers excluded of course.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

And don't forget spreader's. Caught a guy shooting them over my dog.I was psst off.he was bragging till I picked up one of his shells. I never heard of them till that day.


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## Gnoyes (Jan 23, 2013)

I carry an old Ithaca 37 featherlight with a cut down barrel, in 20 gauge. Sometimes I get the chance to shoot it at flushing grouse. When I have no time to think about the shot, I can even kill birds with it.


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## anon09082020 (Oct 27, 2011)

This thread has caused me to spend 2 hours looking at guns online. So far I have resisted the urge to buy another. 

I used to shoot an Ithaca NID in 16ga, loved that gun and I shouldn't have sold it. 

Some great thoughts and opinions on this thread regarding Grouse guns.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

birdhntr said:


> And don't forget spreader's. Caught a guy shooting them over my dog.I was psst off.he was bragging till I picked up one of his shells. I never heard of them till that day.


Never heard of them either. What are they?


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

A spreader is a shotgun cartridge wherein, the shot chamber carries a device to interrupt the flight of pellets as they go through the choke. Typically they open a tighter choked gun 1-2 constrictions when fired. But, commercial loads are notorious for having holes in the pattern due to the obturating disk.

So, essentially, you can shoot an old, tighter choked gun, without reaming out the chokes, and get a wider, more distributed pattern.

They make up for some lack of skill, but not all of it.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Gamekeeper said:


> A spreader is a shotgun cartridge wherein, the shot chamber carries a device to interrupt the flight of pellets as they go through the choke. Typically they open a tighter choked gun 1-2 constrictions when fired. But, commercial loads are notorious for having holes in the pattern due to the obturating disk.
> 
> So, essentially, you can shoot an old, tighter choked gun, without reaming out the chokes, and get a wider, more distributed pattern.
> 
> *They make up for some lack of skill, but not all of it*.


The only ingredient that makes up for lack of skill is a well fitted shotgun and proper practice. I have "fooled" around with spreader loads both factory made and home rolled loads at the range, the holes in the pattern were just amazing from one gun to the next. IMO just a gimmick. Buyer be warned and be ware


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

GDG, where I noticed their effectiveness was back when all I had was an old Sauer, bored pinhole and prick, and I found a pile of them at Gander MT. Instead of clean misses on 15 foot birds, I might tear off a wing occasionally. That gun was more a double rifle than bird gun.

I never felt they were dependable.


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## Abu65 (Oct 26, 2013)

When I was shooting sporting clays a lot I would carry some spreaders. The course I shot most everyone shot O/U's I couldn't afford one I liked so I always shot my auto loader. The guy that set up the course liked to throw a 8 yard rabbit and a 40 yard crosser as a report pair. So I used the spreaders to help me on the rabbit and it worked well.


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