# 80gr or 100gr for 243



## JAS (Nov 16, 2005)

I received a Savage 99E from a friend of mine. It seems to like the 80gr versus the 100gr rounds. Is the 80gr PSP too small for deer? I have read that many use this round weight for deer. Anyone have an opinion whether agreeing or not. Thank you for reading.

JAS


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## Gilbey (Oct 26, 2005)

I tried Fed/Remington ammo in my Browning A Bolt 243 and grouping was not good.

I have ended up shooting the Winchester premium w/Nosler ballistic tip, 95 grains and am MORE than impressed. Groupings super tight and deer damage is VERY extensive.

I shot a doe for my brother in law this year for meat in the freezer as he was skunked and the first thing he asked after skinning was "What'd you shoot it with - your Encore?" (.50 cal) The bullet blew it's heart up, tore up the lungs and left a exit hole 3" in diamter.

No need to look further IMO for a great round.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

The 80 gr. psp should be fine for deer as long as you have good shot placement. A lot depends on what range you are shooting at. Ballistic tips are very effective but at short range can cause almost too much damage. I handload and use Hornady 100 gr. btsp's in my .243 and I'm very happy with the performance. Almost all of my shots are under 100 yards, though. I have used Hornady's version of the ballistic tip out West on Antelope and had good perfomance but I was shooting at 200+ yards. If you get into handloading Hornady has an 87 gr. sp that should work well for deer sized game. Just stay away from hollow point or full metal jacket bullets for deer.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

i've spent a large amount of time trying to find the right bullet for shooting coyotes, one that doesn't destroy the coat. (i understand this isn't about coyotes, but the concepts are the same. bear with me)

there are 2 lines of thinking - hard and fast, such as a full metal jacket - which will zip through practically any part of the animal, however, you get long blood trails due to minimal wound channels. then there's the frangible bullets - those "ballistic" tips and what not, that explode shortly after entry, often times making soup of the insides and leaving no exit wounds. those would be ideal, except for one thing - they are very effective on broadside shots, but hit a deer at the wrong angle, and you've got a long tracking job ahead of you.

the .243 is a marginal weapon for deer. people won't like to hear that. but its a handicap. will it do the job? sure. but its like handing a .410 to a youngster and expecting them to hit every rabbit or squirrel they shoot at. a .410 is for experienced hunters. so is a .243. i make no assumptions about your experience level - i'm sure you're a fine hunter. just bear in mind the limitations of the .243.

in a recent book i read, "tracking wounded deer" (about how to train dogs to track wounded deer) the author mentioned that far and away, he gets more calls to track deer shot with a .243 than any other gun. again, this wasn't a book on deer rifles, but tracking wounded deer, and the subject of rifles is discussed, as well as archery.

personally, i like the way Bryce Towsley put it:.

"As a deer cartridge, the .243 Win. is nothing if not controversial. It's often selected as a "first gun" cartridge, and I suspect that's where most of the controversy is rooted. The .243' nearly quarter-inch bullet is adequate for deer hunting, but it doesn't carry much insurance. The little quarter-bore has almost no forgiveness built in as compensation for a poorly placed shot, and a new hunter is far more likely to place the bullet imprecisely than is an experienced hunter."

all that said, i would look for a bullet with a very high weight retention. stay away from frangible bullets like the aforementioned ballistic tips. i'm a big fan of sierra bullets, and the federal 85 grain premium vital-shok sierra gameking BT fits this bill nicely. you also won't go wrong with the federal premium 100 grain vital-shok nosler partition. i understand that the previous poster commented that the federal ammo didn't group well from his rifle, but that has little bearing on its performance in your rifle. its worth shooting. federal ammo works very well for me.

there are many out there. remington express PSP uses a swift a-frame bullet, which expands reliably at long distances and doesn't over-expand at short distances.

weight retention, weight retention, weight retention....;-)

good luck to you.


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## part timer (Sep 30, 2003)

I have a .243 that is my favorite deer rifle. Very accurate shooter. However, the margin of error is less than my 30.06. I'm very careful with shot placement and bullet selection. My current hunting load is a 100 gr Hornady Interlok. I've never lost a deer with this set up but I have had to track them a couple hundred yards with double lung shots. One deer with a heart shot went upwards of 80 yards. 

I'd be concerned with an 80 grain bullet - especially if it wasn't a bullet with good weight retention and expansion properties.


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## woodsrat (Jan 4, 2005)

I shot a 250 lb. whitetail buck with a .30-.06 and dropped it in it's tracks. I shot a similar size buck the next season with the same rifle, struck it in the same spot and the deer went 80 yards before laying down. When I walked up on him I had to put a .45 ACP into him to finish him. 

I've seen humans who have been shot with .25 acp in the guts die within minutes. Then I've seen humans shot with .44 magnums in the chest go on to live normal lives. Go figure. 

When I was a kid, I deer hunted with a .30 caliber M-1 carbine. Took alot of crap about it too. Lot's of dead Japs & Germans are laying cold in the marble orchard thanks to that little rifle.

I have a couple of .243's and I will be shooting a deer next season with one of them. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. If you can't shoot, it don't matter what caliber you have.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

woodsrat said:


> I shot a 250 lb. whitetail buck with a .30-.06 and dropped it in it's tracks. I shot a similar size buck the next season with the same rifle, struck it in the same spot and the deer went 80 yards before laying down. When I walked up on him I had to put a .45 ACP into him to finish him.
> 
> I've seen humans who have been shot with .25 acp in the guts die within minutes. Then I've seen humans shot with .44 magnums in the chest go on to live normal lives. Go figure.
> 
> ...


 

I sometimes think some guys like to shoot the magnum calibers so that they don't have to worry as much about shot placement, if so that is a big mistake. Most of the magnums are overkill for whitetail in Michigan. I like starting shooters with a .243 because there is virtually no recoil and they are not as likely to develop a flinch. 

The first year I hunted deer, it was with my Dad's surplus P-17 Enfield 30-06. It weighed about 10 lbs and had a steel butt plate. I was 15 and weighed about 80 lbs. Let's just say that was not a good combination for insuring accuracy. Back then it was all still hunting and I must have lugged that rifle 30 miles that first season. Luckily I did not get a shot a deer that year because God knows where I would have hit the thing! For my next birthday I received a model 94 30/30. I was a heck of lot more accurate with that rifle than I was with the '06, and successfully harvested my first deer with it, 1 shot at 50 yards and the deer went all of 15 feet. 

I started all of my kids on a .243 as their first big bore rifle and then moved them up to a .260 remington and a 7mm-08. The .243 has plenty of energy to kill a deer, especially in Michigan where the shots are usually pretty close range.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

i hate to appear argumentative, but...

energy is often over-emphasized when killing deer.. we can provide all kinds of examples of how high energy objects projected at soft tissue animals will produce little more than sore muscles. for example - consider 2 objects with the same kinetic energy - one is a 1 lb gel-filled bag launched at 60 fps. The other is a 490 gr broadhead arrow travelling at 225 fps. Both have a kinetic energy of 55 ft-lbs. Which would you rather be hit by?

energy only becomes important when considering *HOW* it operates on the tissue. that makes bullet performance and shot placement the utmost of importance.

large wound channels. massive hemmorage. they result in the quick collapse of the nervous system and loss of blood pressure, and that causes death. 

agreed, you don't need a magnum gun to achieve these results.

my kids will start with the venerable 30-30. with michigan's short ranges (say, inside of 150 yards), the 30-30 really shines. the larger bore, heavier bullet provides excellent stopping power, surpassing the .243 in my opinion (at that range). the .243 obviously far outshines the 30-30 on extended ranges, that's not in question. however, from standard recoil tables, the *30-30 *comes in at *10 ft-lbs *of recoil, while the .*243* is at *7 ft-lbs*. so for minimally more recoil, you get a great close range gun. sighted in at 150 yards, with a 150 grain bullet, should mean you're inside +/-2" line of sight. (compare both of those to the 180 grain *30-06 *round generating nearly *20 ft-lbs *of recoil.)

again, my intention is not to argue whether the .243 is a legitimate deer gun. it certainly will do the job. when comparing the two guns in general - the .243 has more benefits than the 30-30 - it can be long range, it can be a varmint gun, etc. its a great round. however, as any cartridge does, it has its weaknesses and strengths. its my opinion that its often incorrectly applied, such as with the case of shorter range, recoil sensitive shooters shooting at deer sized animals.. the 30-30 is a much better choice in this case. just my opinion - no offense intended to anyone.


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## woodsrat (Jan 4, 2005)

My point is that no two deer are exactly alike. You cannot quantify the "will to live" factor. 

Who would have ever thought that the U.S. military would have chosen the .223 round for a military rifle? A 55 grain FMJ bullet even? 

Sight alignment, sight picture, proper breath control, proper trigger pull. Practice, practice, practice. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. 

I don't consider most handguns to be an adequate deer round. However, people take deer and bear all the time with them. Why? See above.


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## aquanator (Dec 1, 2005)

I would suggest checking the Remington ballistic charts (on-line) for the available .243 rounds. The facts around velocity, energy, drop, etc., will likely convince you to use the 100 gr round over the lighter rounds.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

woodsrat said:


> My point is that no two deer are exactly alike. You cannot quantify the "will to live" factor.
> 
> Who would have ever thought that the U.S. military would have chosen the .223 round for a military rifle? A 55 grain FMJ bullet even?
> 
> ...


to my understanding, the us military chose the .223 because soldiers could carry that many more rounds over the .308 casings. and it can be argued that the military, in making that choice, was much more concerned about incapacitating targets. killing them is a plus, but removing them from effective combat is the primary goal. when it comes to killing, ask a soldier whether he'd prefer the the m-14 (.308) vs. the 5.56mm (.223) - i bet i can predict the answer(well, at least the soldiers i've talked to). (and correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't the 5.56mm NATO firearms designed with 1:9" twists, instead of the common commercial 1:12" twist in the .223 rem? that enables them to shoot the heavier 70-80 grain .223 rounds.) i've never been in the military, so my knowledge is limited to what i've read. 

to that end - the .243, or the 6mm, in my opinion, is the ultimate compromise for our soldiers. i think that would be an ideal round to accomodate storage capacity and improve terminal effects. nonetheless, i digress.

i agree, woodsrat, you cannot quantify the "will to live" factor. but you simply cannot argue that you reduce your chances of "runners" as the size of your wound channel increases.

again, i'm not trying to argue the legitimacy of the .243 as a deer round. there are plenty of reasons to use a particular cartridge, and plenty not to. your suggestions are spot on - shot placement and practice. given that, you can kill a deer with just about anything. the .243 is a fine cartridge. it presents its users with advantages and challenges. i have only 2 points in the subject - for those looking for a mild recoil, short range gun, the 30-30 is a better choice. secondly, if i were using a .243 for deer, i would use:

a medium to hard bullet, heavy (100 grains), that expands very reliably at short and long distances, and retains most of its weight. the polymer tip bullets don't often meet that criteria. i'd want a bullet that expands to twice its size, leaving a 1/2" wound channel all the way through the animal.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

rzdrmh said:


> to that end - the .243, or the 6mm, in my opinion, is the ultimate compromise for our soldiers. i think that would be an ideal round to accomodate storage capacity and improve terminal effects. nonetheless, i digress.
> 
> for those looking for a mild recoil, short range gun, the 30-30 is a better choice.


IMHO the .243 would not be a good compromise for a military round. It is the same cse as the .308, just necked down to .243 so there would not be the significant weight savings that you get with the .223

If you have to carry the weight, in a military application, I would rather have the .308 with a .30 caliber bullet.

As far as the 30-30 vs. the .243, both make good rifles for Michigan Whitetail hunting. The only downsides to the 30-30 depends primarily on what rifle you are shooting. If you are using the lever action carbine that the majority of 30-30 users are shooting, it probably does not have a built in recoil pad. This is going to increase felt recoil which may affect younger shooters, especially in a light weight carbine. The only other downside is having to use blunt tip bullets which are going to be slightly less accurate than a boattail spitzer would be. I agree that this is a pretty minor liability at the distances that most whitetails are shot in Michigan. 

Again, specific to the rifle you are using but the majority of 30-30's out there don't have a safety. Cold numb fingers and cocked hammers are not a great combination for the novice shooter. I like to start younger shooters on a bolt action, scoped .243 with a three position safety and a builti-in recoil pad. Let them shoot a few hundred rounds with this combination at the range and they are going to be very comfortable with this rifle. Much more comfortable than shooting a couple of hundred rounds out of a model 94.


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## woodsrat (Jan 4, 2005)

rzdrmh, I think we agree more than we disagree on this topic. I will clarify my major point again. If you can't shoot straight, you shouldn't be hunting. Master the art of marksmanship first, pick your weapon/caliber and then go hunting.

I like the .243 and I am an excellent shot. I've passed on many a whitetail buck because I didn't like the shot I was presented with. The rifle I held in my hands did not solely decide that for me, the entire scenerio did. Weather, distance, caliber, position of the animal etc. For me, I think it will be an ideal weapon. Deer & varmint round all in one gun. For others, it might not be so good of a choice.

thanks for your opinion. It was written with wisdom, thought and knowledge.


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

I reread and the original question was 80 vs 100 gr 243. The posters gun seems to like 80 gr. Is that adequate for deer in MI.

The answer is yes-IF at the distance you are hunting you can hit the chest cavity. Any projectile on the chest cavity=dead deer-assuming the projectile dont blow up on a rib or shoulder knuckle. At CLOSE range 22 LRs have killed lots of deer esp if a rib is missed. Hole in lungs = dead. I guess sooner or later should be added and we all have an obligation for SOONER.

Yes shoot 80s and practice. If you can really get by with 100s-go to lockstock.com and get 500 of the 100 gr bullets for $40 and you can practice much. They are called blems but are usually overruns often from Hornady. I got some 257s and weighed 75 out of 500. Weights only varied 0.4 gr from highets to lowest of the 75. That is match grade specs- and they look beautiful.. Shoot away.


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## JAS (Nov 16, 2005)

Original poster here.....

I want to thank all of you for the very informative thread. You all seem to be far more knowledgable in this area than I. Thats why I post a forum from time to time. You can get so much good scoop. The guys at the store can sometimes give you bad scoop in order to sell you something. These forums are great. And the responders to this thread serve as a testament to that statement. I decided to try to order a few more brands of the 100gr to see if I can get the 80gr. (Remington Express 80 PSP) results. I just ordered 100 gr PMC silver and a 95gr Hornady. The rifle was given to me by a very good older friend of mine. He is quite the elder and he would be pleased if I could get a deer with it this next hunting season. I have about 10 other rifles that would do the job, but I want to use this Savage because I know that he would get so much joy out of that. I think that by me using this 1965 rifle, he still feels that he is hunting as well. He is physically unable to hunt now, but misses it very much. Let that be a lesson to all of us to not let an opportunity pass if we can head out into the woods with friends and family. This is by no means an end to the thread... 

"There is no graduation day in the sport of hunting"


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## HTC (Oct 6, 2005)

If you handload or know someone who does, try a 95 GRN Barnes X Bullet. You will not be dissappointed.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

munster - you make very good points. i love my model 94, but i also have a NEF handi rifle chambered in the 30-30 that the kids will use. it alleviates many of the problems you brought up. actually, i'm going to have a hard time giving it up when the time comes.

woodsrat - yes, i think we do agree. its clear that you're a conscientious and well prepared hunter. i only chime into a conversation such as this to clarify the advantages and disadvantages of a particular round for someone who might not have as much experience with the round (such as the original poster).


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

HTC said:


> If you handload or know someone who does, try a 95 GRN Barnes X Bullet. You will not be dissappointed.


i have not shot a barnes bullet that dissappointed me in terms of controlled expansion, weight retention, and penetration. the barnes x are tried and true.

federal loads some barnes rounds, but not until you get to the 25-06. there might be some others that factory load them as well. good suggestion.


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## Burksee (Jan 15, 2003)

So as to not get (too) long winded and answer the question....

I've been using a .243 for deer hunting for close to twenty years, its a Remington Model 700 ADL. It aint fancy lookin but it can shoot like its on a wire....

The only ammo I use are 100 grain PSP's, either Remington or Federal, usually what evers on sale. :lol: 

Unless I'm sighting in a changed or new scope shooting it at 100 to 120 yards I've yet to have a three shot group more than two inches, most are an inch or less. Many times I dont allow for proper barrel cooling.... 

I've shot at least one deer a year with it in the almost twenty years I've owned it. Some were as close as twenty five yards, a few were at or a little over a hundred. Only one I remember being at about 150 yards.

I've recovered "every" deer I've ever shot with this gun, some have dropped in there tracks, others I've had to track. Never had to track one more than fifty yards.

I've never ever "just shot" at a deer, its always been about shot placement regardless the gun or caliber I'm using......


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## woodsrat (Jan 4, 2005)

Burksee said:


> .........I've never ever "just shot" at a deer, its always been about shot placement regardless the gun or caliber I'm using......


We had a guy in our camp that always carried magnum rifles and on many occasions "just shot at" deer that most of us in our camp would have waited or passed on because of distance, position of the deer, etc. He believed he could shoot a deer in non-vital areas with his magnums and successfully bag a buck. He used to try to get the other guys to take those kind of shots too. After helping him track wounded deer on one too many occasions, he was politely asked to remove himself from our camp. 

I plan on deer hunting with my .243's. I was thinking about carrying Federal Vital Shock 100 grain Nosler solid base BT. What does everyone think about that bullet?


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

those nosler's are also a beautifully constructed bullet to meet these ends.

i think that with today's technology, every manufacturer will produce the type of round that generates the results you're looking for - tough controlled expansion and weight retention. 

as mentioned before, i like those barnes. i'm really coming around to solid copper as a means of controlled expansion. i like the noslers. and the speer trophy bonded bear claw gets good reviews as well, though i've never shot them. i do know that federals premium line uses those speers.


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## JAS (Nov 16, 2005)

I plan on deer hunting with my .243's. I was thinking about carrying Federal Vital Shock 100 grain Nosler solid base BT. What does everyone think about that bullet?[/quote]

I tried them with my Savage 99E. They were the *worst* performers by far. That was just with my rifle. About 6-7 inch groups at 100. A total bomb. The best (100 gr) I have got so far without testing them all is Rem Express 100 gr PSP. About 2 inches. The 80gr in Rem was about 1-1.25. But, I have decided to go with the 100 gr round, not 80. Trying PMC and Hornady 100gr next. We shall see...

I really need to learn how to reload. Just dont know anyone into it.


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## HTC (Oct 6, 2005)

Yep, I have some great Barnes success stories as well. I've used a 7MM-08 with a 160 GRN X on elk twice, about equivalent to using a .243 on deer. One quartering away, one broadside. Both had exit holes and niether took a step. There are no whitetails big enough that a .243 stoked with 95 GRN X wouldn't be enough gun. Accuracy is first rate.

If I had any thing further to add on them, I would not use their coated bullets. You can't miss them, they are blue. On the upside, you can really push them. Also they look really good at the range, "especially in a nickle plated brass case" they will draw many ooohs and ahhhs right up until they see your groups. It is hard to keep them in the same zip code. I would use regular X bullets, you could moly them if you wanted to, but for whitetails you don't need to.

You can go to most any gun store and they will load rounds for a fee.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I've enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate the wealth of knowledge being shared on the subject.

What I'm wondering is what would be a good rifle that could still be a first-time gun, maybe something for my wife or youth, a little more power than the .243...but still small, flat, and compact. My dad has a .25-06 that my nephew killed his first deer with at the age of 6...but it's a little long for blind hunting and I was thinking of something more compact, but at the same time we've dropped quite a few deer out to 225 yards with that .25-06. We bought that gun in the single shot H&R and it's been a great shooter..I've dropped 3 deer 200 yards and over with it, and several between 100 and 200.

What do you guys think, is their a better caliber..that .260?


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## JAS (Nov 16, 2005)

NorthJeff said:


> I've enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate the wealth of knowledge being shared on the subject.
> 
> What I'm wondering is what would be a good rifle that could still be a first-time gun, maybe something for my wife or youth, a little more power than the .243...but still small, flat, and compact. My dad has a .25-06 that my nephew killed his first deer with at the age of 6...but it's a little long for blind hunting and I was thinking of something more compact, but at the same time we've dropped quite a few deer out to 225 yards with that .25-06. We bought that gun in the single shot H&R and it's been a great shooter..I've dropped 3 deer 200 yards and over with it, and several between 100 and 200.
> 
> What do you guys think, is their a better caliber..that .260?


What about the 257 Roberts, or what some just call "Bob"? Seems to be right in there as far what you are looking for. I agree. Very, very informative thread. The bad part is that you realize how dumb you are.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

NorthJeff said:


> What do you guys think, is their a better caliber..that .260?


.260 remington is a great deer caliber. I have a Remington Model 7 in .260 and it would make an excellant youth or ladies rifle. Virtually identical to the .260 is the 6.5 x 55 swede, another almost perfect deer caliber.

I like the .260 because of the wide range of bullet weights that you can get. Everything from 95 grains up to 160. A perfect whitetail caliber but enough gun for mule deer or even Elk if you know what you are doing.

The next step up would be a 7mm-08. Same case as the .243 and the .260 just necked to .28 caliber. Also an excellant choice for deer but it does have a little more felt recoil. In a heavier gun it would not be a problem. I used a 7mm-08 barrel on my Encore this year and the recoil was comparable to a .260 

The only drawback to these calibers is that if you are out in the sticks and run out of ammo, chances are you may not be able to find any at the general store. If you handload, though, all of them would make excellant calibers for the youth or novice hunter.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

interest. However the 243 is a much better round for deer than the 30-30 in the accuracy, and down range ballistics. Having shot and killed many white tails with it [all one shot kills] Furthest being about 230-240 yards [deer fell over dead while my daughter watched.
If one uses quality bullets, [Partitions/Barnes/Hornady--partial to the SST/Sierra 100BT] they will take any deer cleanly.
Your Tracker sounds like he has a bunch of guys who cant shoot.
That caliber [243] is just so much better than a 30-30 its not funny.
Also when making dual purpose use as a prairie dog or chuck gun capable of making 500 yard plus shots....its a favorite of mine [Handloading ammo even this evening for it].....a 30-30 for long range varminting.......maybe if you put it in a mortar base and ......well you get the idea.
I know you read all the ballistic data you can [as do I] but it just doesnt add up...to try and say it isnt a good deer cartridge.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

huntsmen - its really not my intention to put down the .243 as a deer gun. i've said many times its a great round, and its certainly capable of taking deer.

as centerfire rifles go, the .243 is the *starting* point (minimally, in caliber size) for what's considered acceptable for deer. agreed? would i have a problem using a .243 on a deer? of course not. but i spend a fair amount of time around ranges, bullets, and guns, and consider myself somewhere beyond the realm of a novice. i would be hesitant to suggest the .243 as a gun for a beginning hunter, because it leaves little margin of error. and i understand full well that an ideal cartridge does not make a bad shot have good results. bad shots are just that.

with the .243, shot placement becomes *somewhat* more important. certainly shot angle becomes more important. bullet construction, in my opinion, becomes of utmost importance. things such as these lead me to believe that the gun is better in the hands of a veteran, not a beginner.

but huntsmen, you gotta re-read my posts. i never said the 30-30 was a better round than the .243. clearly, if i were to buy one gun, i'd choose the .243 over the 30-30 for its versatility. the 30-30 is much more of a specialty gun. my point was that in terms of killing power, i find the 30-30 to be better on deer at short ranges, inside of 150 yards for example. not because its faster, cause its not. not because its got better BC, cause it doesn't. not because its inherently more accurate, cause its not. but it will, imo, leave a better wound channel, at that distance or less, with a greater multitude of bullets. my 30-30 prints 1.5" groups at 100 yards with factory remington core-lokts. hand loads get tight. its not .243 accurate, but its plenty accurate for the 6-8" kill zone on a deer.

a guys got plenty of options. though i've not done it, i know sierra makes a .308 diameter bullet in 125 grains. load that to a minimum load in a .308, and you've got the advantage of a larger wound channel with a pretty mild gun. 

that 25-06 is a great deer round. as is the 257. you might just stick with that .25-06, NJ, if you're comfortable with it. however, if i were going to buy just a deer gun, a dedicated deer gun, it would be the 7mm-08. jeff, that 7mm-08 might be the best dedicated deer round out there. load it light and hand it to anyone. flat, flat shooting, with very adequate stopping power. take a hard look at it, and try to shoot one if you can. a solid weighted gun, with lighter loads will give you excellent results. the 7mm-08, as someone mentioned, is in the .308 family. obviously, as the military adopts a round, it instantly is grasped by the public, due to wealth of supplies. the .308 was a replacement for the .30-06, made for greater inherent accuracy and the shorter, more reliable actions. from that, the 7mm-308 was spawned, a .284" diameter bullet in a .308 case. it didn't enjoy any commercial success until it was renamed to simply the 7mm-08. that round is widely used by silouhette shooters for its out of the box accuracy and power. look hard at that round, jeff.

for me, it boils down to this. the .243 is a versatile gun. someone looking for a varmint/deer gun would do themselves well to check it out. in the hands of a proficient shooter, its certainly adequate. however, if i were looking for just a deer gun, there's better options. 

if we compare the rifle recoils, we find that:

.243, 100 grain bullet = 8.8 ft/lbs recoil
7mm-08 , 140 grain bullet = 12.6 ft/lbs recoil
.260 rem, 140 grain bullet = 13.6 ft/lbs recoil
.30-06, 180 grain bullet = 20.3 ft/lbs recoil

of course, the 7mm-08 is, imo, by far a better deer gun than the .243, but you do get some additional recoil.

btw, for what its worth. the .243 is not an ideal varmint round either, if you're preserving fur. if you're just dispatching varmints, then its great. but there's no way i'd use it on a coyote that i wanted to keep the pelt from. for that, the .204 ruger might have jumped to the head of the pack of varmint rifles. but that's another thread.. :lol:


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

normally would shoot more proficient with it. A 243 doesnt have much recoil. I am 6-4 and 225, my daughter is 5-10 and maybe 115, either of us can dot the Is with one. It certainly will put down any white tail. A good bullet will do its job. Id much rather the daughter use the accurate 243 VS a 30-30 with Mortar accuracy.......... Then again she has routinely made 400 yard kills on PDs out west and a deer is the size of a boat! BC and SD are somewhat important but, I dont worry to much bout it.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

I guess I should leave my trusty 22-250 out of this :gaga: I have shot almost everything in the lower US with the .243 and a caribou or two and will witness the fact that the .243 is wicked deadly.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

I have been loading those today for the PD trip out west//// of course everyone KNOWS the 22-250 is capable of taking deer LMAO.............Right.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

Light Magnum ammo? does that boost the 243 into a better killing math equasion?
I wondered also how you came up with it as an accepted minimal for deer caliber?
As you are aware the 22-250s/220 Swift/223 and others are used for deer in some states [Also why Federal loads TB and Nosler Partition in those cal, 60gr 223/22-250 and 55 TB]. I carried my Bushmaster 223 AR15 the last day of season but didnt see anything to use the 60 gr Nosler Ptns on.
Not picking on you, just wondered where the sources came from.
Just so you dont think I hunt exclusively with the 243 I also use 25-06,270 Win, 30-06 and 308s. I kind of gave up on magnums as I found I could do the job just as well with standard calibers.
also have killed deer with ...243,25-06,270 Win,270 Wby,7Rem mag,7 Wby, 30-30, 30-06,300 WSM, 303 Brit,....somewhere about 80 deer now....and of course had to look at every aspect of what the bullet did [or didnt do]...As they say the proofs in the pudding, kind of like ballistics, want to have a good understanding of whats going on. Sounds like you also do your homework.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

how did i allow myself to get drawn into this debate again? 

will a .22-250 kill deer? sure!

will a .243 kill deer? sure!

will a .223 kill a deer? sure! (see a trend?)

the 24 caliber is considered minimum for deer by the majority of sources i've read. i know, i know - i read all about people who advocate using 22 caliber guns for deer. they are out there. but they are not in the majority.

bigger holes kill deer faster. period. and there are plenty of choices out there that are still low recoil, and accurate. if guys want to use the .243, use it by all means. i'm just giving the facts as i know it. a .243 *can* put a big hole in a deer, if the shot is right, and the bullet performs.

btw, enough with the trash about the 30-30. if you're getting mortar accuracy out of your 30-30, you haven't spent enough time with it. 100-150 yard accuracy should be excellent. and that's all i've advocated the 30-30 for.

its a personal choice. i'm not knocking anyone who wants to use a .243 for anything. so fire away guys.. 

i just have a hard time understanding, howitzer, why anyone who's got a 30-06 in the safe would pick up a .243 for caribou. must be looking for a challenge.

anytime a subject as this comes up, it basically boils down to this:

i can kill deer with "abc" caliber, so it must be an adequate round for deer.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

I used open sight once and dropped a nice doe with the side shot at 220 yards. So I know it works. Its just that where we hunt one can shoot much farther than the 30-30 would allow.
It would appear your of the Big and slow calibers advocating large holes to kill deer. The 243 seems to kill them just as easily with adequate penetration [usually through the deer].
Maybe you hit it right on the why a guy would use a 243 instead of a 30-06..........because he can!
As you know bullet construction has came a long way and one can use the smaller calibers quite well.
Wasnt ragging on you about the rainbow trajectory of the 30-30 [just the 243 shoots much flatter] and with the advent of Hornadys new ammo with the pointed tip/boat tail design it may allow a longer effective range for the 30-30.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

In all fairness to RZ I would have to say that I tend to agree with him about the .243 being about the smallest caliber that is generally accepted as being appropriate for deer sized game. Sure you can kill a deer with a 22-250 or a .223 but they are just not the best tool in the rack for the job.

The .22 calibers are much more of a specialist weapon and are not well suited for the novice hunter. 

BTW, RZ did you transpose the recoil numbers for the 7mm-08 and the .260? The .260 is the same case, just necked smaller and would use less powder so it should have less felt recoil with the same weight bullet as the 7mm-08.

IMHO the .260 Remington and the 7mm-08 are the best overall deer cartridges around. I would feel comfortable using either of them on Elk, Moose or Caribou, as well.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

as I just found a new Savage HB in 7-08 at the gun shop. Never seen one of the Savage HB in that caliber [got it for 275 which I though was a steal for a new Heavy BBl]....Going to use my favorite Hornady bullet the 139 SST and see what she will do.


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## HTC (Oct 6, 2005)

Huntsman27 said:


> Light Magnum ammo? does that boost the 243 into a better killing math equasion?
> 
> Nah, its all about the bullet....weight and construction and last, speed. "Light Magnum" is a more of a marketing ploy. They squeeked another 100FPS out of a given round and called it a "Magnum". If you have a 100 GRN partition going 2750 FPS vice 2650 niether you or the deer is going to know the difference.
> 
> I looked at their ballistics back when they first came out. They were definitely influenced by lawyers. Any handloader can easily improve upon their numbers for a given round.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Huntsman27 said:


> as I just found a new Savage HB in 7-08 at the gun shop. Never seen one of the Savage HB in that caliber [got it for 275 which I though was a steal for a new Heavy BBl]....Going to use my favorite Hornady bullet the 139 SST and see what she will do.


Nice find! Btw, I think I've asked you this before but if you run across a source of factory nickle 7mm-08 brass, let me know. I've managed to scrounge about 50 once-fired nickle cases but would like to get a larger quantity of matching headstamp factory brass.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

that I have are about 400 30-06 and 300 308s....guess I could convert those nickel 308s into 7-08s. If I find a batch of 7-07 nickel Ill be sure to let you know.
It was an unusual rifle at a good price so I snatched it up. Figure even though its a HB I can trudge up my ridge and do some sniping on deer with it.


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## JAS (Nov 16, 2005)

I am very impressed with the knowledge that has come through on this thread. You guys are at the top of your game for sure. Dont stop with the conversation because I and many others learn from the such. Why else be here? I am getting my new ammo (Horn, PMC silver) in on the 25th. The next day I will be at the range with it. If thread is still active, will post my results. Again, I have a 1965 Savage 99E in excellent and I mean excellent condition. Given to me as a gift. I have many other rifles to use, but this one is going to bag a something next season. Once I find a 95-100gr that will get 1-1.5 fairly consistently, it is a go. I am the type of individual that has to have complete confidence in my rifle. Especially, on big game. I own two types of rifle groups. Various 30 cals and then the 22's. The middle calibers are unknown to me. But now I have a 243. Seen a 257 at the range the other day. Nice. Might be catching a bug.:evil: I think the wife is sensing something. Cant find the check book lately.


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