# Upland pointing dog breeds ...what gives ?



## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

Over the decades ( and decades and decades ..) of being an upland hunter, being involved with formal bird dog trials, a reluctant internet surfer and overall a casual observer of such things....

It seems more and more and more both on this site and other similar ones that when one posts a bird hunting photo or asks for a kennel recommendation, a breed recommendation or a trainer - for the most part such things revolve around GSP, Griffon, GWP/Drahtaar etc. or to a lesser extent other European breeds - Brittanys' , Vizlas and the like. When I started in this game circa. 1968 it seemed like every dog training book, every bird dog article in the outdoor press etc. featured to one degree or another Setters/Pointer/Pointers/Setters... and even more Pointers/Setters but now browsing through today's similar magazines and websites ...again it's more and more the European dogs - GSPs, Brits, and especially the rough coated breeds. Traipsing around much of my local bird hunting spots and spots further N and across the Straits over the years it seems like it's more and more rare to see a Setter and I honestly would hard pressed to recall seeing a Pointer in the last five years or so . 

Now GSPs in my experience have *always *been and remains a popular choice for mid-west upland hunters but for the last two decades or so there's also been a literal explosion in popularity of, which I again call, the "...rough coated..." breeds. This seems an indication that these breeds are more and more replacing the more "traditional" upland Pointers and Setters. 

For what it's worth I've been involved with GSPs since about 1968 and was a founding member of the now long defunct German Wire-Haired Pointer Club of Southern Michigan .

So again - what gives with pointers and setters - relegated to a niche/cult following ? 

9mm Hi-Power


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

I think your really not looking hard for pointers.


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## Mitten state (Dec 13, 2020)

I’ve noticed that too. I don’t have an answer maybe it’s guys wanting to try something different or the internet bringing more information and greater availability of more breeds to your fingertips. I don’t have any concrete reason either but have noticed the same thing.

I think a Lab, GSP, English Setter, English Pointer, or a Springer would cover most needs but there’s a lot breeds out there and nothing wrong of course with getting the exact breed or type that you want.


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

I think most people just dont like killing grouse that much







lol all joking aside i wonder why that is myself. I think the idea of a dog being "versatile" attracts people. I also think some people picture setters and pointers as being more of a trial dog not suited for housepet life and the casual foot hunter. I ended up with a setter because i wanted the best grouse dog i could get and all the best grouse killers i knew that mentored me ran setters, so i figured they must be best. Obviously i know that is not necessarily true but it was my line of thinking. I love all dogs but personally i will be sticking with setters!


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Shorthairs are popular especially when it comes down to the pheasant game.Pheasants add to their popularity for sure.
A shorthair typically allows a hunter to get birds over whether they do it right (pointed)or wrong (flushed)so most owners are happy with that.Most work close enough to get shots either way.
Setters and pointers run typically so they need to stand that bird forever for success.knocking birds at 75 yards and out isn't conducive to bagging game.Most don't want to train that hard so they use a GSP as a turnkey solution to get what they get regardless of bird manners.
My GSP"S are pretty steady most times on grouse, woodcock,and quail.
On pheasants they know the game and when I come to a point they automatically go to relocate over and over until we pin a bird or it flushes.
It works well but if I hunted only grouse, quail, and woodcock I would only hunt setters and pointers for sure.
I'll add that my new setter has been my best behaved dog in the house compared to GSP"S.


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## #8 shot (Aug 27, 2009)

Actually a few in the group I hunt with are trending back to Setters & Pointers. They are the guys who don't waterfowl hunt. I like to do both so I have both Griffons & a Red Setter.


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

Less burr issues on a shorthair vs. setter?


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## Sharkey (Oct 29, 2010)

My last 5 have been Brittany’s. They take up less room on my bed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## GrouseHntr (Nov 2, 2008)

The versatility of certain breeds is a major contributing factor, but so is accessibility. The internet allows for more knowledge and research on dog breeds vs just seeing what was in trials or hearing word of mouth what a good breed was back in the day. I grew up with setters which are not exactly known for being the best retrievers in the uplands and even less so in the duck marsh. I wanted a duck dog and my wife said not a chance to the usual suspects. She then added in any other breed I wanted must look similar to a setter. So now I have a Large Munsterlander. I will have more setters in my life, but I will probably always have one variation of versatile dog or another so I have a duck dog.


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## sparky107 (Jan 15, 2005)

I like them all, but I love my Pointer. He just has no quit in him. Far from perfect for everything I like to do, but there is something about the style of an EP.


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## waterfowlhunter83 (Aug 10, 2005)

I’ll just add my 2 cents. As others have said, I think it’s the versatility component of the continental European breeds is why you may be seeing them more and more. I did quite a bit of traveling this year to hunt upland birds and I think a majority of dogs I saw from other hunters were GSPs/DKs, DDs/GWPs, and Griffs. I saw a few Britts, labs, and PPs but most were those others I mentioned. Even the hunters I talked with that didn’t have a dog or were hunting with others that did, always asked me about the versatility of my dog. I think people just like that idea of being able to use a dog over a wide spectrum of different types of hunting situations. Whether they use it is another topic itself but I think the versatility of some breeds is the main attractor for most people.


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Setters and pointers are associated with elitist snobs and monied individuals. Sad for the dogs. 

Maybe some people realized they could hunt over a beretta as well as a blazer.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

shaffe48b said:


> *Setters and pointers are associated with elitist snobs and monied individuals. Fortunately for Spaniels they are attractive to only to the intellectually Intelligent owners.*



I have following this mildly interesting thread since it began. and it has been some time since i owned, trained and hunted a GSP, Setter, Pointer or Labrador, they were all fine examples of their breed. I seldom if ever refer to one my own dogs as great unless that has been bestowed on them by other dog persons. Breed popularity is like the tide or wave motion in the oceans. One year it is up another year it is down. Personally I have never put much stock in what is popular or what other folks endear them selves to. It usually boils down to Ford V Chevy v Dodge any way.
I have done business with enough Millionaires to know they as a group of people have very little to do with the standards and procedures of producing breed popularity over one breed or another breed.
I might add that the UK has seen some reduction in working Setter numbers over the last decade or so but I would have to believe that has more to do with the political landscape of the Greta Britain. Hunt Point Retrieve dogs have enjoyed a resurgence if you consider that a good thing.

Hal


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Imo eapecially as more and more hunting dogs become house pets people are more concerned with getting the type of dog they individually enjoy and are less concerned about conforming to the gentleman sportsman image found in the outdoor magazines of decades ago.

My grandfather was a truck driver and hunted over setters. I own britanies mostly because of their size and personality. His setters behaved better less because they were setters and more because he had a lifetime experience hunting and training dogs.

I also think that due to field trials the pointing breeds are starting to conform to the same behavior and standards. I personally wish it was easier to differentiate dogs so different people could have the type of dogs they want instead of getting a slight reject of what the trial society thinks is most important. But we get what we get.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

shaffe48b said:


> Setters and pointers are associated with elitist snobs and monied individuals. Sad for the dogs.
> 
> Maybe some people realized they could hunt over a beretta as well as a blazer.


Well bred dogs all run around the same price.
I have owned Canadian labradors,German shorthairs,and setters.I am anything but wealthy or truly stuck on any breeds.
I am not sure where you came up with this determination but we all have different life experiences.
That being said the fact that you are well enough off to have a dog trained and campaign him in competition it is only a wise decision to go with a pointer or a setter.Nobody shows up with a quarter horse,Tennessee walker, Percheron at the horse race track.A Thoroughbred is not at the rodeo either.
The pointers and setters have nothing to do with elite snobs and wealthy people but more to do with competition and establishing better breeding from it.
Field trails and competition has been declining for decades,the space needed as well as game available to do so isn't what it used to be either.This is relevant for such extremely athletic dogs as well.This is what I believe has reduced the amount of these dogs around.
If there were more trials,land,and game it would still be like it once was.
Small tracts of land really prevent the use of these dogs for hunters because they need space.It would be difficult to cut one of the dogs loose on a 40acre parcel and keep it there to hunt,avoid neighboring properties, avoid roads, which is also relevant.

My grandfather hunted over world class pointers and was shooting the cheapest pump shotguns.

I primarily hunt GSP"S (the poachers dog) and use two benelli shotguns and a very expensive ou superposed browning 20 gauge.
No rhyme or reason really.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Bird hunting is highly imbued with elitism. This fact is well known and discussed whether some would like to deny it or not. And we all know that the brittany and gwp are not the dogs associated with this stereotype.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/hunting/kill-elitism-in-upland-hunting/


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I get a kick out of these posts. The guy who posted ford verses chevy hit it right on the head. My breed is best because I own one( in my case 6). I've had a lot of shorthairs never had a good one compared to my setters. I also get a kick out of the hair deal. When I could hunt hard I always had a suburban or tahoe and at the end of the season I'de open all the doors take a leave blower and she be ready for next season. My best friend hunted Elhews those little hairs worked in everything. But my reason for having setter verses versitle I hunted grouse not everything. If you hunt ducks get a duck dog hunt rabbits get a hound a dog breed to due it all can't due it as well as one breed for a certain game.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

I can't remember meeting all these elite people bird hunting and travel for the past 35 years. Stereotype maybe and including the stereotype associated with fly fishing or duck hunting possibly but is farther from the truth as this notion is man made manifestation.
Considering the fact that back in the heydays of Michigan more people went pheasant hunting than deer hunting tells a different story.
These elite that are stereotyped are an extremely small decimal of a percent of actual bird hunters and always has been.
Now even when I go west to ND or KS and the amount of people I run into are all middle class Americans out and about seeking adventure with their breed and game of choice.
TV and YouTube bare truth to this.
Even in my childhood I remember the considerably poor folks had some of the finest pointers.
I also don't recall seeing these deemed elitist's at any of the field trials that I have experienced.The all seem to be regular people as you and I.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

[QUOTE="birdhntr, post: 8848337, member: 93125"

I primarily hunt GSP"S (the poachers dog)
[/QUOTE]

The Brittany Spaniel was the original "poachers dog". Bred by the French peasants who snuck onto the King's hunting preserves to snatch a pheasant or rabbit for dinner. Small in size , roany colors so as to be inconspicuous, close hunters and excellent retrievers. And a docked tail so as to be less noticeable in the field. They originated from a mishmash of European breeds in the province of Brittany. The Britts have evolved into the American and French Brittany breeds in the USA.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

shaffe48b said:


> Bird hunting is highly imbued with elitism. This fact is well known and discussed whether some would like to deny it or not. And we all know that the brittany and gwp are not the dogs associated with this stereotype.
> 
> https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/hunting/kill-elitism-in-upland-hunting/


I resemble that remark. I in fact enjoy being unique and elite at the same time. and I no longer own a pointing dog have not for some 10 years. Flushing dogs and their ways made me a better hunter, trainer, shooter and around good guy!

Elite "In political and sociological theory, the *elite* (French élite, from Latin eligere, to select or to sort out) are a small group of powerful people who hold a disproportionate amount of skill in a society."


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Natty Bumpo nice read didn't know that. I've always said if I was a pheasant hunter instead of a grouse hunter I would have Britt's


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Thanks for the props, WD. We ran Britts pretty hard for 40 some years, the ABC breed club emphasized the "Dual Dog" concept so we participated in both the field trials and some shows too. At one time the Britts held the record for "The Most Dual Champions , ie.one dog having both field and bench championships. 

Maybe some Brittany guys can update us? I have always thought that a Brittany was the "best starter pointing breed". Yard train them, introduce the gun and then hit the woods......


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

Rob (birdhntr) mentioned something about price. FWIW I paid $750 for my pup. A friend of mine is looking at buying a pudelpointer to the tune of 1800 dollars. I have a fried who pays over 1500 bucks for his german certified GSPs. If i paid that much for a dog it had better shoot and clean the birds for me...


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

$400 and $800

But it's a mistake to think snobbery is explained by puppy price. We all know better than that.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

I find this thred very humerus.


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

I can completely understand someone who is only a part time grouse hunter wanting a versatile dog. If I hunted pheasants more often for instance I would not want a setter. I can also understand someone hunting grouse with a flushing dog.

I would like to hear from someone who is purely a grouse hunter and also owns versatile dogs, what made you choose that breed? Were pointers and setters ever a thought, and if so why did you decide against them? This is a question asked with no judgement just curiosity.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

NATTY BUMPO said:


> [QUOTE="birdhntr, post: 8848337, member: 93125"
> 
> I primarily hunt GSP"S (the poachers dog)


The Brittany Spaniel was the original "poachers dog". Bred by the French peasants who snuck onto the King's hunting preserves to snatch a pheasant or rabbit for dinner. Small in size , roany colors so as to be inconspicuous, close hunters and excellent retrievers. And a docked tail so as to be less noticeable in the field. They originated from a mishmash of European breeds in the province of Brittany. The Britts have evolved into the American and French Brittany breeds in the USA.[/QUOTE]
I read up un this.Very interesting.
The Germans stole the term for sure as brittany's have been around much longer.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Back woods said:


> I find this thred very humerus.


Your an elitist and you didn't even know it!!


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

birdhntr said:


> Your an elitist and you didn't even know it!!


Lol...


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Back woods said:


> Lol...


I should have said an e"leet"ist.
I guess if had a dog like hammer I would deal with the stereotype associated with it.
On another note the next time I see you guys at an event could you spruce up the dress code a little and possibly move on from hotdogs, hamburgers, pulled pork sandwiches,and beer.
I'm thinking surf n turf with some fine wines with real silverware and China.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

From 12th to 9th place. Shorthairs are popular for many reasons.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

I would have setters but I don’t want to be too elite. My head might explode from being too awesome if I had setters.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

I mean I’m so much better than everybody as it is I can’t imagine if I had a setter or a pointer ..... last I checked we aren’t living in fiefdom’s anymore. The average guy can hunt and have dogs, they don’t need to be the Duke of someplace or another to have good dogs.


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## P. colchicus (Oct 4, 2019)

Diehard pheasant hunter and unapologetic setter enthusiast here. Are they the “best” dog for pheasants? Maybe not, but I think mine hold their own against versatile dogs nicely. I pick breeders who run in NSTRA trials, and then spend a lot of time working on retrieving and tracking once we’ve got steadiness more or less down. But I also like to duck hunt, so I have one of those Labrador dogs, too. He’s also a great pheasant dog. I prefer to hunt them over the setters, but he’s real handy when they start hiding out in the cattails!


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

[/QUOTE]The Brittany Spaniel was the original "poachers dog". Small in size , roany colors so as to be inconspicuous, close hunters and excellent retrievers..[/QUOTE].  Some I've seen these days aren't so close. Some I've seen run pretty big.


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## sportsman98 (Dec 6, 2010)

For what it's worth, the guy that got me into dogs started with a pointer and then transitioned to weimaraners. 

Personally, pointers or setters aren't my cup of tea and the fact I can do an early duck hunt with or task my dog with finding a rooster in the cattails after the shot is nice. All that being said, porcupines suck and no possum is safe around my house.


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## Gsphunteronpoint1 (Mar 8, 2018)

When I started bird hunting with my grandpa he had a pointer, 2 vizslas, and a lab. All were excellent hunters, he mostly ran the lab with the pointer and then the 2 vizslas together. Then I started hunting with my uncle who ran strictly black labs but he had 450 acres in Kansas that he ran birds on and claimed that pointers would struggle just do the amount of birds. Another guy I also hunted with ran 2 Brittany’s just because he liked the breed. My uncle in Florida runs EP’s on quail. He said you don’t see many shorthairs down their either. So some of it is demographic too. But To me it comes down to personal preference and what guys are looking for in a dog. I run GSP just because I like their character. And my wife likes the markings. I have a buddy who doesn’t hunt but has a GSP because he’s an avid runner and cyclist and wanted a dog who could go with him.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

ab5228 said:


> I mean I’m so much better than everybody as it is I can’t imagine if I had a setter or a pointer ..... last I checked we aren’t living in fiefdom’s anymore. The average guy can hunt and have dogs, they don’t need to be the Duke of someplace or another to have good dogs.


Yeah I can't imagine what I'd do with a setter. I actually need to retract some of what I've said in terms of there being less elitists and snobs. It's really that these types of people quite common but but perhaps no longer need a certain dog to be what they are.

There's a gentleman who posts on here all the time many times every day who has several times berated me for saying that not everyone wants or should want trial breeding in their hunting dog. He's also called me a dog abuser for light use of a training collar or for using a buzzer on a training collar. These are the same dogs who sleep on couches, open christmas gifts, and rarely get a heavy hand. Yet according to this horse's a$$#### this great dog ended up in the wrong hands.


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## Gsphunteronpoint1 (Mar 8, 2018)

michiganmaniac said:


> I can completely understand someone who is only a part time grouse hunter wanting a versatile dog. If I hunted pheasants more often for instance I would not want a setter. I can also understand someone hunting grouse with a flushing dog.
> 
> I would like to hear from someone who is purely a grouse hunter and also owns versatile dogs, what made you choose that breed? Were pointers and setters ever a thought, and if so why did you decide against them? This is a question asked with no judgement just curiosity.


I once saw a video on YouTube of a guy who lives in northern Michigan and he hunted grouse/woodcock with labs. And he did very well for what I saw on video. I wish I could remember the name of the guy and video. But it was interesting to see a lab working in the grouse woods.


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

Gsphunteronpoint1 said:


> I once saw a video on YouTube of a guy who lives in northern Michigan and he hunted grouse/woodcock with labs. And he did very well for what I saw on video. I wish I could remember the name of the guy and video. But it was interesting to see a lab working in the grouse woods.


Probably Fritz and Ric Heller. They run labs and have alot of videos on youtube. Big RGS supporters and some of the best grouse killers in the state arguably. Look up grousecommander.

My wife has a lab mix which she owned before we met and I have added her to my hunting string. I have some covers that i hunt where pointing dogs are "pointless". I know where the birds should be and the flushing dog just helps present better shooting opportunities. 

Hunting with the lab helps curb some of my elitism


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## Gsphunteronpoint1 (Mar 8, 2018)

michiganmaniac said:


> Probably Fritz and Ric Heller. They run labs and have alot of videos on youtube. Big RGS supporters and some of the best grouse killers in the state arguably. Look up grousecommander.
> 
> My wife has a lab mix which she owned before we met and I have added her to my hunting string. I have some covers that i hunt where pointing dogs are "pointless". I know where the birds should be and the flushing dog just helps present better shooting opportunities.
> 
> Hunting with the lab helps curb some of my elitism


Yea that was them! I have a lab/GSP mix. He’s now retired at the ripe age of 14 but he was a good hunting dog. I could hunt ducks in the morning and pheasants in the afternoon. Now he just hunts the rabbits around our yard and lays by the wood stove. He’s built like a lab but would point like a shorthair. Does that make me an elite? Having 2 versatile breeds combined into 1? LOL


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

michiganmaniac said:


> I would like to hear from someone who is purely a grouse hunter and also owns versatile dogs, what made you choose that breed? Were pointers and setters ever a thought, and if so why did you decide against them? This is a question asked with no judgement just curiosity.


I’m going to lump woodcock with grouse. I only hunt grouse and woodcock over my griffs. I don’t do pheasants, I do duck hunt a lot, but my current go to locations are not conducive to taking a dog to retrieve. 
I got into Griffs due to a photo. I saw one on the cover of a calendar and it stuck with me. I really like the way they look, so maybe it’s a touch of fate, or whatnot, but years later I started researching dogs that are hypoallergenic, can hunt, and are good with family and as companions. Griffs check all of these boxes. At the time I didn’t upland hunt, but duck hunted. My first griff was the best dog I could have hoped for, and taught me how to upland hunt, as much as I taught him anything. I never hunted ducks with him, but put as many miles in the woods chasing birds as any dog with a desire for birds could hope for.
I’m an animal person, have always loved dogs and appreciate all breeds. I think it was more of fate as to why I have griffs, and plan on having Griffs going forward. I don’t think Griffs are better than other breeds, but they are the best breed for me. If we lived longer, I admittedly would love to spend a few decades really getting to know different breeds.


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## ab5228 (Nov 13, 2009)

ab5228 said:


> I mean I’m so much better than everybody as it is I can’t imagine if I had a setter or a pointer ..... last I checked we aren’t living in fiefdom’s anymore. The average guy can hunt and have dogs, they don’t need to be the Duke of someplace or another to have good dogs.


Maybe my sarcasm was wrong. I just opened a house warming gift from my mom....#elite


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Good One, Ab5228 LOL #Priceless


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

ab5228 said:


> Maybe my sarcasm was wrong. I just opened a house warming gift from my mom....#elite
> View attachment 622401


You look the part! Perfect!


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Perception rules the roost with most of these comments. Pointers and setters retrieve just fine and there are plenty of continental breeds that will run the country.
Once you get past all the false pigeon holing of characteristics, people more likely than not pick a breed because it is pleasing to their eye.


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## ryan-b (Sep 18, 2009)

I hunted grouse and woodcock with out a dog for 23 years. Ive now owned two setters. I was looking at GSPs at first, but the only two I’ve been around and have experience with couldn’t be left alone or they would get board are reck ****. On of them actually chewed a hole through a wall to get out of a room. I wanted a setter as they are known to have a very good on/off switch when they come in the house. One was a ridge creek cody female that was messed up( super gun shy) as a pup that I got free of charge at under a year old. I got her going again but then she relapsed so I found her a good home with a non hunting active family. She was a gorgeous dog. I then bought a pup from Rich Holister at Dun Roven. Paid 600 for him 2 years ago. Hes a Waymaker Super Sam/ Backus Creek Sadie pup. He takes after his sire just under 26 at the withers and is just over all a big goofy looking dog. But my god does he have natural ability! He doesn’t ever mess with non target species and picked everything up very quickly. Have killed a pile of birds over him. Hes steady to flush and thats as far as I wanted him to go. Personally have no interest in having a dog steady to fall.
Ive killed alllloootttt of birds in my day. I only shoot birds that are held on a stanch point. No creeping or any other garbage. Doesn’t matter to me if I get to shoot at ever pointed bird. One thing I have seen with some of the German dog owners is in the woods they allow what I consider bad habits. Shooting dog busted birds, allowing dogs to creep, etc... all so they can get a shot at everything.
Many trainers that I have spoken to have all said GSPs are pretty hard to screw up. They are simply hard dogs and extremly driven. May be easier for people to get them as starter dogs because of that. I don’t know.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> So again - what gives with pointers and setters - relegated to a niche/cult following ?
> 
> 9mm Hi-Power


Aren't you neighbors to that Pykegear crew? All they run is Setters and Pointers. I agree with Luckydog, you aren't looking very hard if don't see shags and scrawny quail dawgs all over the place.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

ryan-b said:


> I hunted grouse and woodcock with out a dog for 23 years. Ive now owned two setters. I was looking at GSPs at first, but the only two I’ve been around and have experience with couldn’t be left alone or they would get board are reck ****. On of them actually chewed a hole through a wall to get out of a room. I wanted a setter as they are known to have a very good on/off switch when they come in the house. One was a ridge creek cody female that was messed up( super gun shy) as a pup that I got free of charge at under a year old. I got her going again but then she relapsed so I found her a good home with a non hunting active family. She was a gorgeous dog. I then bought a pup from Rich Holister at Dun Roven. Paid 600 for him 2 years ago. Hes a Waymaker Super Sam/ Backus Creek Sadie pup. He takes after his sire just under 26 at the withers and is just over all a big goofy looking dog. But my god does he have natural ability! He doesn’t ever mess with non target species and picked everything up very quickly. Have killed a pile of birds over him. Hes steady to flush and thats as far as I wanted him to go. Personally have no interest in having a dog steady to fall.
> Ive killed alllloootttt of birds in my day. I only shoot birds that are held on a stanch point. No creeping or any other garbage. Doesn’t matter to me if I get to shoot at ever pointed bird. One thing I have seen with some of the German dog owners is in the woods they allow what I consider bad habits. Shooting dog busted birds, allowing dogs to creep, etc... all so they can get a shot at everything.
> Many trainers that I have spoken to have all said GSPs are pretty hard to screw up. They are simply hard dogs and extremly driven. May be easier for people to get them as starter dogs because of that. I don’t know.


Shorthairs can creep.I had one that never did until I started the pheasant game.I actually had to work on getting her to relocate and move forward.
To have one steady to flush is not that difficult especially if they don't run on wild pheasants.
Here's a clip of one steady to flush even with me being loud and calling in a setter pup for backing experience.





This one I brought the setter in to back as well.Three quail flushed separately before she moved.





Then this one was at 338 yards and I started rolling the film when I spotted her.The birds left when I say whoop if I remember correctly.Annie honored nicely at a long distance but did try to creep once.The parents are fully broke dogs.It is doable with a shorthair but it is probably a little more work than a setter.
I imagine possibly that a dog with a stronger desire to retrieve takes more to break from said bad habits


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> So again - what gives with pointers and setters - relegated to a niche/cult following ?
> 
> 9mm Hi-Power


I blame the AKC and bench trials. They breed dogs to be bigger and less active "easier to live with" for people who cant handle dogs. . Used to be every other upland article featured Goldens. When was the last time you saw a Golden with even a modicum of hunt in it? Meanwhile my dogs, a Large Munsterlander and a pointer/hound mix are easy to live with and have more hunt in them than I have time. Thank God my kid (20) runs them till they all drop.


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## waterfowlhunter83 (Aug 10, 2005)

birdhntr said:


> Shorthairs can creep.
> 
> 
> I imagine possibly that a dog with a stronger desire to retrieve takes more to break from said bad habits


The continental creep.

I believe your last statement is right on point (no pun intended). Dogs with high drive are a little more difficult to reign in. I would imagine a dog without much prey drive is pretty easy to brake.




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## paradise (Jan 30, 2003)

I'm glad I read through all 4 pages of this thread. There is some good humor. The photoshop is a hoot!
Regarding dogs, we have had GSP's, Gordon's and Lab's in our group through the years. A prejudice I used to have is a Lab would barge in on a dog on point. I had it happen more often with a young pointing dog. So, that turned into a falsehood for me.
I'm a grouse/woodcock and duck junkie and I was more than happy with my GWP and now my Draht.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Aren't you neighbors to that Pykegear crew? All they run is Setters and Pointers. I agree with Luckydog, you aren't looking very hard if don't see shags and scrawny quail dawgs all over the place.


Thanks for your reply.

I've posted, anecdotally, to what I see and have seen over the last decade or so amongst bird hunters I run across from where I live to the U.P. and back again throughout the season. And what I see "afield" and posted and queried about here and on other bird hunting forums is that there is a year in and year out steady contingent of interest in GSPs but also an increasing trend towards "...rough coated dogs...", pointers and setters, not so much any more. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw someone with a pointer in the field or parked along a two-track going into or out of a cover - occasionally setters but pointers...???

Except for :

The last time I hunted over a pointer was in the U.P. and as I recall it was about four years ago, three hunters, one dog, one bird moved/pointed and one bird killed and after about two to three hours I begged off and headed back to the two-track and on towards my SUV. The rest of the "crew" showed up about 20 minutes later. That was it for much of the day.

The above is not meant in any way whatsoever to be a reflection on the bird hunting abilities of pointers/setters _vs. _other pointing breeds but only to say there's nothing magical about a so-called "best breed " of bird dogs.

9mm Hi-Power


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> The above is not meant in any way whatsoever to be a reflection on the bird hunting abilities of pointers/setters _vs. _other pointing breeds but only to say there's nothing magical about a so-called "best breed " of bird dogs.
> 
> 9mm Hi-Power


Oh the magic is there.....It just isn't going to be on display for the non believers.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

Lucky Dog said:


> Oh the magic is there.....It just isn't going to be on display for the non believers.


A dog is a dog and there's an awful lot to be said for that but "magic" is nothing more than sleight of hand  .

9mm Hi-Power


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

If you go by Looks the Bracco wins hands down.


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

The woods are filled with a lot more variety these days for sure. I would love to have an English Pointer but I prefer larger breeds. A dog that I can grab his collar without bending down. I just like the larger size in the woods also. Easier to see and maybe I feel safer with a Big guy running out front. I also have a place in the city and I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to take on a Bracco.


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## Zeboy (Oct 4, 2002)

This entire thread is rather humorous. Let's face it, there are guys (not gender specific) that hunt birds and then there are guys that just play with their dogs - they're always sure to tell everyone how many "points" they had.

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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

wirehair said:


> The woods are filled with a lot more variety these days for sure. I would love to have an English Pointer but I prefer larger breeds. A dog that I can grab his collar without bending down. I just like the larger size in the woods also. Easier to see and maybe I feel safer with a Big guy running out front. I also have a place in the city and I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to take on a Bracco.


Interesting dog's to be sure. Yours looks well.


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## Outdoor Gal (Sep 9, 2008)

So many fun breeds, only so much space in the house/truck.  We'll be adding a field bred springer to the pack hopefully next summer as well.  

The GSP is our first hunting dog. My husband wanted a versatile dog for both upland and waterfowling. He fits the bill nicely and has a special knack for tracking down crippled birds.

Then I got my lab. Hubby left for bird camp. I needed a dog at home to keep me company. He's my duck duck, hunt test dog, pickup dog for tower shoots, and he enjoys the upland flushing game too. 

We added our first setter a year and half ago. His natural talent on birds had been something fun to watch. If I could only have 2 breeds of dogs for the rest of my life it would be a lab and setter. He's just too much fun.


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