# hounds +baiting



## houndcrazy

:helpk im not trying to offend anyone and not trying to start an arguement, but bait hunters and hound hunters (and maybe some spot and stalkers) need to band together and quit arguing over who's right...im a hound hunter, but i have NO PROBLEMS with baiting, but us arguing is tearing our sport and enpowering the organizations against us...im 15 and i even know this..haha..just trying to bring us together..ik theres slobs on both sides of the line, but most of us arent...were law abiding fellow michigan hunters...:help:


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## Magnet

Until such a time as the Houndsman starts letting Baiters drop bait and trespass (without permission) onto their (Houndsman's) private properties, us baiters aren't gonna give in to the Houndsman running their hounds and trespassing onto and through our private properties (without permission). Quite simple really.



> but bait hunters and hound hunters (and maybe some spot and stalkers) need to band together and quit arguing over who's right...


That's like saying the Muslum's and the Christian's must band together and quit arguing. 

Your suggestion is a nice gesture, but it ain't gonna happen.


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## houndcrazy

..ik theres slobs on both sides of the line said:


> u dont need to group all of us as trepassing criminals... just as in EVERY SPORT thers unethical ppl...thats like saying every NFL player is a steriod addict becuz a couple ppl use um... im sure theres unethical baiters..but im not saying very many r...ik i probably started a war here..lol..but this is the downfall of our sport and hunting itself...if the anti's get the houndsman, then they'll go to baiters, and u never know wat'll happen after that...:bloos:


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## youp50

It ain't gonna work, Kid. Nice try. You see putting bait out onto a piece of ground makes it yours. I hunt on the Ottawa National Forest. I have had baiters race up and down the two track forest roads, blowing vehicle horns. I have had the Warden called because I was chasing 'their bear'. You will not win your plea with many baiters. 

Baiters have a hard time understanding that bears roam 20 or 30 miles looking for a meal in the fall. The same bear can be started on public land that is miles from private land. Jump him and he is going home. Unable to read a private property sign. So there you have it.

Have a good time. Do your best to stay clean. Know you have the right to retrieve your hounds from private land.


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## soccer_man48420

youp50 said:


> I
> Know you have the right to retrieve your hounds from private land.


as he said you have the right to retrieve your dogs. If your not part of the michigan hunting dog federation you might want to... They fight for that right.

a few years ago i had some guys layin spike strips down on a trail i was baitin on, come to find out they were bait hunters that had a bait not too far from mine.... needless to say i couldnt prove it, but the situation was handled.


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## springdale

its looks like that spring Bait season anf Fall dog season might just be out best bet. You guys are already arguing and the bears are still sleeping!


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## Rooster Cogburn

Looking back over the history of Michigan bear hunting, there was seldom any conflict between users prior to the lottery system. Once the lottery kicked in interest in bear hunting skyrocketed. MDNR continuously increased the number of kill tags to meet the demand. You can only stuff so many hunters into areas of public land. Once the balance is exceeded, conflict among users increases and the finger pointing begins. Conflict between users is a management problem and it is the responsibility of MDNR and the NRC to reduce the hunting pressure to regain quailty bear hunting for Michigan sportsmen.


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## Magnet

My problem is more on the issue of private property. Put in the time, money and leg work only to have everything run off of my private property by dog hunters. Don't seem right to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bearboy

Just one brief comment. Most ethical hound hunter(I try my best to be one) will do anything to keep their dogs off private property. I race to to catch up my dogs if they seem to be heading that way. I value my dogs. Dogs don't run off game for long. Bear generally return to their normal behavior about 15 minutes after the pursuit is over. If a bear does not return it's generally dead. Before you jump all over me a Wisconsin grad student did a study on hound pursuits and bear behavior. I have bear return to my bait sites shortly after a chase. It may take a day if it were a long race(then it's generally a small bear). 

Conflicts are going to continue until the MDNRE wakes up and reduces tag's. To many hunters competing over a dwindling resource. It's not the hound or bait hunters fault. Blame lays squarly on the Wildlife Division of our DNR.


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## houndcrazy

Bearboy said:


> Blame lays squarly on the Wildlife Division of our DNR.


 
ISNT THAT MICHIGANS MOTTO??!!!???


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## beardog

Magnet said:


> My problem is more on the issue of private property. Put in the time, money and leg work only to have everything run off of my private property by dog hunters. Don't seem right to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i got news for ya you might own the the land but ALL the critters are PUPLIC PROPERTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU dont own them!!!!!!!


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## Magnet

beardog said:


> i got news for ya you might own the the land but ALL the critters are PUPLIC PROPERTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU dont own them!!!!!!!


Great response. So I should be able to walk into your property whenever I want so I can check it for wild animals? You don't own them. Give me your address and I'll start tomorrow.:lol:


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## anon5311

Magnet said:


> My problem is more on the issue of private property. Put in the time, money and leg work only to have everything run off of my private property by dog hunters. Don't seem right to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dogs don't run the bear off your property. The bear leave your property because you start stinking up your woods going to your bait every day.


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## Magnet

vanceg said:


> Dogs don't run the bear off your property. The bear leave your property because you start stinking up your woods going to your bait every day.


Reality is that I have trail cam videos of hound hunters checking 1 of my bait stations every few days last season before it opened. The second week of season I was feeding snacks to dogs in my driveway. If they weren't running up and down my driveway, they were chasing near the back of my woods. The dogs running through my property was almost a daily ritual. Another great hunting experience for me and my party. It's not much different than me walking my dogs through your woods during deer season or me and my dog chasing deer out of your woods and food plot everyday during deer season because my buddies are hunting your neighboring property. I don't think you'ld like that, would you?


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## anon5311

Magnet said:


> Reality is that I have trail cam videos of hound hunters checking 1 of my bait stations every few days last season before it opened. The second week of season I was feeding snacks to dogs in my driveway. If they weren't running up and down my driveway, they were chasing near the back of my woods. The dogs running through my property was almost a daily ritual. Another great hunting experience for me and my party. It's not much different than me walking my dogs through your woods during deer season or me and my dog chasing deer out of your woods and food plot everyday during deer season because my buddies are hunting your neighboring property. I don't think you'ld like that, would you?


Post the videos and I will be the first to apologize. If not, I don't believe you.


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## Beaverhunter2

houndcrazy said:


> :helpk im not trying to offend anyone and not trying to start an arguement, but bait hunters and hound hunters (and maybe some spot and stalkers) need to band together and quit arguing over who's right...im a hound hunter, but i have NO PROBLEMS with baiting, but us arguing is tearing our sport and enpowering the organizations against us...im 15 and i even know this..haha..just trying to bring us together..ik theres slobs on both sides of the line, but most of us arent...were law abiding fellow michigan hunters...:help:



For a "kid", you're a pretty wise man. Keep up the good work!

John


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## Steve White

Houndcrazy, It's good to see a young man with a head on his shoulders trying to mend fences. It is one fence that will be very hard to mend though. Regardless of what the situation is there will always be some that break the rules, and others that will lay the blame wrongly. 

Some folks even hear or see dogs they assume the dogs have been on private land. Which may not have been the case. Same goes for lack of seeing bear or deer. Anyhound guy will tell you that is not the case. A bear will return to the area. Sometimes within hours or less. Treed a bear last year with Rooster, and bearboy. 1 hour later he was back at the bait we started him off. Got pics to prove it, and many more cases like that. Same with deer leaving the area. It just don't happen. Even had a guy last year tell me I was scaring all the grouse away by **** hunting at night. About the dumbest thing I have ever heard!

I can understand property owners being upset by slob hunters. By the same token though I have a hard time with the guy that is lucky enough to buy a 40 or something in the middle of 1000's of acres of public. Complaining when dogs may get near his property. This person should have a bit of understanding. Most of the time hound guys will try to avoid the property. It would be plain stupid for a hound guy to turn a dog lose on a public 40 surrounded by private land. That hunter should get his neck rung. 

Breaking the perception or misconception of how the animals are impacted is the first thing that needs to be done. Until folks realize a dog barking does not scare every critter out of the state. There will be problems. Blatant trespassing is another thing. Normally only done by the few. Which them same bad apples can be found in any sport, or walk of life!!

One day perhaps we will all work together to keep our sport. Today is not that day though. Another day though the anti's have won!


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## beardog

if you have photos why wouldn't you call the law and prosecute them for trespassing? probably because you don't, your lack of success stems from your lack of knowledge of the game your hunting.


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## Rooster Cogburn

Magnet, not sure about the C.O.'s in your area, but in my opinion they ought to be effective enough to deal with cronic trespass problems. What has been your experience with them when you reported having problems with trespassers?


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## Magnet

vanceg said:


> Post the videos and I will be the first to apologize. If not, I don't believe you.


First of all, posting these videos on a public forum would be a poor decision, so that isn't going to happen.

Secondly, I'm not looking for any apologies. Whether you believe me or don't believe me, whichever it is, means absolutely nothing to me.

Third, my opinion is already set and some of the responses on here only reinforce it.

Beardog and Rooster, yes the CO is well aware of what has been going on, but it is a grey area based on the "dog retrieval" loophole in the law. He only lives 5.5 miles from the property and he will eventually catch them intentionally running private land. For now, these details will be kept private between me and the CO. 

The issues started 6 years ago when the "Guide Service" was running hounds down the river bottom. I own both sides of the river as do all the neighboring properties. In fact there is public land in two directions, but there is no public land along the river for several miles. During my first contact with the "Guide Service" (this is about 100 ft behind my cabin by the river), they informed me that they had already tagged 4 bears for their clients along the river bottom. I told them they were running their dogs on private property. They asked if I had a bear tag and then offered to take me down the river bottom tomorrow for a fee of $1200.00. I declined (this is one of the times the dogs were hanging around the cabin and running up and down the driveway trying to pick up a scent). They were trespassing before they got to my property and they were trespassing again when they left it. They must not have understood the words "private property". 

Now they run this area every year, before and during season, knowing damn well where the dogs are gonna go. 

I don't think it will be too much longer before the Law catches up to them. Until then I will not be sharing the name of the "Guide Service" on a public forum or anywhere else.

Those that say I am stinking up the woods and don't know how to hunt have no idea how old I am or how long I have been hunting or how many bear I have taken. I find those comments humorous more than anything else.

So, like I said, my opinion is already set. If you choose to reinforce it with ridiculous posts based on your invalid assumptions, then post away.

Hats off to the young man that started this thread. He has good intentions. Unfortunately, this is a sore subject for me and I should probably stay away from it on this forum.

Good luck with this one and stay safe.


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## beardog

This has been going on for 6 years and the co hasn't caught them yet!


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## thunder river outfitters

welldriller said:


> If its a problem with to many clients lease more land or buy more. That's the problem with you outfitters putting so many baits on state land. Ya don't own state land its everyone's . That's the problem when your trying to run a business on every else's dime. I own land right next to public access land people come on it to recover their deer I don't cry about it.


if you had taken the time to read my post, you would see what i had stated about using state land. the fact is i understand what its all about using state land. my complaint is dogs running on my own private property.in which they have to cross a mile of private ground to get to mine, and the ground i lease. the only complaint i had was just that, but now i have another!
also, i DONT USE STATE LAND ON YOUR DIME. i do pay extra to use state land. but of course you didnt know this. if you did read my post you will also see my baits are 90% on private. so "US OUTFITTERS/GUIDES" are not all the same.


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## swampbuck

TR, What do you pay extra to hunt public land, I am not aware of any requirements YET. Although it may change this year.

Regarding dogs, I hunt where the dog guys avoid. I know people who have had problems. Last year while helping a friend we intercepted a dog hunter checking my friends baits twice. 

There should be separate seasons and a much shorter training period.


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## southern gent

swampbuck said:


> TR, What do you pay extra to hunt public land, I am not aware of any requirements YET. Although it may change this year.
> 
> Regarding dogs, I hunt where the dog guys avoid. I know people who have had problems. Last year while helping a friend we intercepted a dog hunter checking my friends baits twice.
> 
> There should be separate seasons and a much shorter training period.


They do pay extra. State land isnt that much. But federal is alot from my understanding. They have to register for both, If they dont it is a hefty fine. As for the cost i dont know but they do pay for a commercial use permit, I have seen them.
Welldriller tro never complained about dogs on state land. His issue is about them coming into his homestead. No need to single anyone out over this.


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## welldriller_old

southern gent said:


> They do pay extra. State land isnt that much. But federal is alot from my understanding. They have to register for both, If they dont it is a hefty fine. As for the cost i dont know but they do pay for a commercial use permit, I have seen them.
> Welldriller tro never complained about dogs on state land. His issue is about them coming into his homestead. No need to single anyone out over this.


Can you give us a link for the fees to the state???


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## welldriller_old

My understanding was that 2010 was the first year it was mandatory to register and the fee was waived. I know the DNR held several meeting threw out the state to get input on it.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/guide_application_2010_318941_7.pdf


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## youp50

Further insight on the situation. 

There is a different season. Bait sitters always have the first 5 days of the hunt. I was involved with the thinking when the current seasons were set up. The thought was let the bait sitters go first, no whining then. So much for that thought.

In years past I have recovered and tried to recover many bears hit and lost by sitters. Most of the difficulties came from waiting till the middle of the next day. More often than not another bear had visited the bait, leaving a fresher trail to lure the hounds. If another bear had not been there we had a decent success rate.

Bad eggs on both sides.


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## Magnet

> There is a different season. Bait sitters always have the first 5 days of the hunt. I was involved with the thinking when the current seasons were set up. The thought was let the bait sitters go first, no whining then. So much for that thought.


So depending on where a person is hunting, he might be able to get enough preference points for that first hunt every 5 years or so. What a deal.


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## johnnyrick1981

Magnet, we get it!!! You dont like hound hunting, way to turn this kids post into an argument. I think he was shooting for some constructive conversation.


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## welldriller_old

johnnyrick1981 said:


> Magnet, we get it!!! You dont like hound hunting, way to turn this kids post into an argument. I think he was shooting for some constructive conversation.


I agree sorry I got off track.


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## soccer_man48420

yes, that actually happens all the time, for anybody else that doesnt beleive it look at a bears home range... its not uncommon to travel 30 miles in a night. I have bear chases that go even further then 10 miles, just depends on the bear.


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## Tracker83

How many parcels of private property are crossed during a 10 mile pursuit?


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## welldriller_old

Tracker83 said:


> How many parcels of private property are crossed during a 10 mile pursuit?


I have to think that would depend on where you start.


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## Tracker83

welldriller said:


> I have to think that would depend on where you start.


You think!:lol: We have had numerous problems with hound hunters. In our area there is a large amount of public land, but even there to go 10 miles means crossing a LOT of private land. I'm not sure you hound hunters are helping your case by highlighting the fact that it frequently takes a 10 mile chase...


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## Joedirt

Go in the Whitetail forum and mention "My food plot  ..... and seewhere it leads:yikes:


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## welldriller_old

Its not usually a problem were we hunt, but we can't control which way a bear runs or how far it goes. What do ya think hound hunters want conflict with land owners? I don't think so at least none I know.


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## Tracker83

welldriller said:


> Its not usually a problem were we hunt, but we can't control which way a bear runs or how far it goes. What do ya think hound hunters want conflict with land owners? I don't think so at least none I know.


Obviously you don't go out seeking conflicts, but you hound hunters don't seem to care that you run your dogs through potentially dozens of pieces of private property on a given hunt.


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## beardog

Tracker83 said:


> Obviously you don't go out seeking conflicts, but you hound hunters don't seem to care that you run your dogs through potentially dozens of pieces of private property on a given hunt.


Don't lump us all together most of us do care! There are plenty of places you can run your dogs without crossing private property they don't usually run a strait line they make big circles. Magnet is someone you could NEVER please he confirmed that when he whined about waiting 5 years for a tag. In the up you don't have to wait 5 years for a 1st season tag 2-3 is more like it 5 years will get you a tag in red oak. The dnr caters to the baiters and some of you still whine!


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## Tracker83

beardog said:


> Don't lump us all together most of us do care! There are plenty of places you can run your dogs without crossing private property they don't usually run a strait line they make big circles. Magnet is someone you could NEVER please he confirmed that when he whined about waiting 5 years for a tag. In the up you don't have to wait 5 years for a 1st season tag 2-3 is more like it 5 years will get you a tag in red oak. The dnr caters to the baiters and some of you still whine!


beardog, I don't think I've ever interacted you on these forums before so I appologize if I lumped you in with the other hound hunters I've encountered. However, every hound hunter I've encountered has always had a ho-hum attitude when it comes to property lines. It seems like crossing property lines is just an accepted part of your sport. I think a lot of hound hunters do care to some degree, and don't necessarily like it, but it doesn't bother them enough to change how or where they hunt. And for the record, I'm not a bait hunter. I'm not even a bear hunter. I'm just one in a growing list of private landowners who feel their property rights are being violated and we're sick of it.


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## welldriller_old

Tracker83 said:


> beardog, I don't think I've ever interacted you on these forums before so I appologize if I lumped you in with the other hound hunters I've encountered. However, every hound hunter I've encountered has always had a ho-hum attitude when it comes to property lines. It seems like crossing property lines is just an accepted part of your sport. I think a lot of hound hunters do care to some degree, and don't necessarily like it, but it doesn't bother them enough to change how or where they hunt. And for the record, I'm not a bait hunter. I'm not even a bear hunter. I'm just one in a growing list of private landowners who feel their property rights are being violated and we're sick of it.


 Hey Tracker83 don't you think we are land owners too? Yesterday I walked my land seen where someone used a climbing stand. The problem is it was on my land 30 foot off the line posted so good ya couldn't miss it . They also left trash, and were baiting deer which isn't allowed here. So you better add deer hunters not, just hound hunters. I guess if its that big of a problem we better put a high fence a round our land.


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## beardog

beartreed said:


> i usually stay out of this debate.i used to go back and forth like the posters.no one is going to change the oppositions view.i scares me when someone says houndsmen shouldn't ever turn loose if there is a chance they may cross private property. That pretty much means no one should **** hunt,rabbit hunt,bird hunt,bear hunt or even walk there dog if there is that chance.is that the road some of these people want to see our state go down?we do our best to stay off private property but once in a while it is going to happen. A high percentage of the time the landowner doesn't have a problem with it and might even think it's cool. Some have gotton to see a bear where otherwise they never would. Rarely do we upset someone and we say we are sorry and move on. I can't think of a time where we had a problem with the same person twice. Does this sound like a bad enough problem that we should have hound hunting banned?i know i am biased but is it such a terrible thing for some hounds to run across a 40 that is near a large section of state land. It would take them maybe 10 minutes.if that is enough to make some want to ban hound hunting i think that is very very selfish.i 've said all i'm going to say


 nuff said!


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## .480

Easy solution.
Just do like every other dog owner in America and keep your dog on a leash.
Then you can stop the dog before it enters private property.


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## houndcrazy

Beaverhunter2 said:


> For a "kid", you're a pretty wise man. Keep up the good work!
> 
> John


thank you very much, thanks to all the people who gave CONSTRUCTIVE posts...btw srry it took so long for me to comment again (springbreak in florida, lol)...and i think it starts with my generation..we need to teach my generation to unite and "mend the fence"...because 1st goes hound hunting, then the anti's will go to other houndsman, then to baiting, then to all hunting...idc if u want to hound hunt or if u want to bait hunt..its about keeping the sport we both love..hunting..


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## houndcrazy

houndcrazy said:


> thank you very much, thanks to all the people who gave CONSTRUCTIVE posts...btw srry it took so long for me to comment again (springbreak in florida, lol)...and i think it starts with my generation..we need to teach my generation to unite and "mend the fence"...because 1st goes hound hunting, then the anti's will go to other houndsman, then to baiting, then to all hunting...idc if u want to hound hunt or if u want to bait hunt..its about keeping the sport we both love..hunting..


by "other houndsman" i mean bird hunters who use dogs, rabbit hunters, etc. i didnt know if that would be confusing..ha


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## Beaverhunter2

houndcrazy said:


> its about keeping the sport we both love..hunting..



Right on, Houndcrazy!

John


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## Joedirt

welldriller said:


> Hey Tracker83 don't you think we are land owners too? Yesterday I walked my land seen where someone used a climbing stand. The problem is it was on my land 30 foot off the line posted so good ya couldn't miss it . They also left trash, and were baiting deer which isn't allowed here. So you better add deer hunters not, just hound hunters. I guess if its that big of a problem we better put a high fence a round our land.


Dude any trespass is wrong.



welldriller said:


> BTW, any trash my dog leaves is 100% bio degradable.


Any "dog trash" left on my land would be properly placed in a brown paper bag and placed on one "trepassing dog owners" porch, then the "said" bag would be lit on fire and the door bell rung.......then run like heck :lol:


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## rwenglish1

Tracker83 said:


> You think!:lol: We have had numerous problems with hound hunters. In our area there is a large amount of public land, but even there to go 10 miles means crossing a LOT of private land. I'm not sure you hound hunters are helping your case by highlighting the fact that it frequently takes a 10 mile chase...


 
I know how fast hounds move, just how long are the on a private 40 acres when the bear is heading out???????????????????? 

I think you would have enough time to hear them come in, just start to get upset and then they are out of hearing. No one knows where they are going to go, but I do know they won't be there long, and our group will always catch dogs if possible if we go towards prvate property. We have found most problems are from property owners feeding bear, not baiting bear. When a dog cold trails a bear to their deck and this is long before baiting is allowed. 

I personally would like to see the bear tag, cost the same as the Elk tag $100.00. Only the serious will be out there, and the DNR would have more money to weed out the BAD hound hunters and bait hunters.

No one has ever gave me the answer to this question. How many hound hunters and their participants buy a tag @ $15.00 each, verses a bait hunter and his helpers. I would guess the answer is 10 to 1.

I don't know the answer to this young mans quest, and he will find out soon enough why. I quit being a friends with a guy who owned 40 acres in Atlanta, surrounded by 1000's of acres of state land. He could never get a deer their and blamed it on dogs. One day he wanted to shoot someones beagle that was running a rabbit on state land next to his wire, had I not been there, he would have killed it even though it was not on his land. Then when he still did not get a deer, he would have blamed that dead beagle for chasing them all off his property.


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## rwenglish1

Quote "A bait hunter really can't do anything to hurt a houndmen's hunt. Houndmen can hurt a bait hunter's hunt." Quote

This is in correct, there have been times when training we find a certain bear. We also use baits to train on, and the bear hits the bait often maybe every night or morning. Then when the season starts the bear does not hit the bait, we don't find the track going or coming into the bait. Then we hear a bait hunter got the bear, that is hunting.


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