# Trigger pull



## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

I am hopefully going to be in the market for a new pistol. I really like the 1911 but would settle for another style if it was the right gun.

My question is which brand/model has the lightest out of the box trigger? Which models can be easily worked on to lighten the trigger safely of course? I understand pistols are not like rifles and there triggers but I have finger issues and anything much over 6 pds makes me not nearly as accurate due to my finger strength.

I currently have a Taurus UL in 38 speacial so I dont need another wheel gun so leave those out.

Thanks in advance.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

boone nc said:


> I am hopefully going to be in the market for a new pistol. I really like the 1911 but would settle for another style if it was the right gun.
> 
> My question is which brand/model has the lightest out of the box trigger? Which models can be easily worked on to lighten the trigger safely of course? I understand pistols are not like rifles and there triggers but I have finger issues and anything much over 6 pds makes me not nearly as accurate due to my finger strength.
> 
> ...


 If you plan on carrying it, or any other defensive application......dont touch the trigger mechanism


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## DaGuy (Jan 13, 2011)

boone nc said:


> I am hopefully going to be in the market for a new pistol. I really like the 1911 but would settle for another style if it was the right gun.
> My question is which brand/model has the lightest out of the box trigger? .


Tough to beat a quality 1911 for a good trigger. At about 4lbs with no creep or over travel it is referred to as a glass rod break.


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

If you have weak fingers you sure don't want a Glock. I shot once and that was enough. I have messed up hands too, and I own and shoot a Kimber 1911 45acp. A really nice easy shooting gun.. Probably one of the most enjoyable guns there is to shoot... Not just Kimber I mean, but a decent 1911


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

With a simple part swap that almost anyone can DIY any Glock can have a ~4 lb pull weight put the travel will still be long. With dry fire and practice it will be second nature. 

Any decent 1911 can be worked to a 4 lb crisp pull; most Kimber models will be just fine out of the box in my experience. Springfields will need some TLC to get them up to snuff.

Both 1911 or Glocks have options for .22 conversions so you can fire cheap plinking ammo with your carry trigger.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Trigger alterations on a concealed weapon piece could land you in court, if you ever had to use it


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks for the replys guys, I have not checked this in a while, sorry for not responding sooner, 

Gideon, I didnt know that a conceal weapon could not have trigger work done on it? Where or what is the law that says this? Not doubting you just want to know for my own personnel knowledge.

The Glocks come preset with 5.5 lb trigger pull. I tried one at Jays and it suprised me. I figured they would have been one of the worse.

The Kimbers have always had my heart with Colt being a close second. I just have a hard time dropping that much on a gun I probably will not shoot 50 times a year. I know practice is good and you cant put a price tag on quality, but with three kids under 4, time and money is of the essence.

Thanks again, Gideon let me know where I can find the law concerning trigger work on a concealed weapon.


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## Bucket-Back (Feb 8, 2004)

GIDEON said:


> Trigger alterations on a concealed weapon piece could land you in court, if you ever had to use it


I've started more than one argument with that bit of wisdom.


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## DaGuy (Jan 13, 2011)

boone nc said:


> The Kimbers have always had my heart with Colt being a close second. I just have a hard time dropping that much on a gun I probably will not shoot 50 times a year. I know practice is good and you cant put a price tag on quality, but with three kids under 4, time and money is of the essence.


boone nc, look at RIA or Taurus. About half of what a Kimber sells for. I would get an enhanced model RIA but Taurus has checkering on the front strap: a really nice feature. Some will say buy a GI model Springfield but a beaver tail, extended slide release, adjustable trigger and maybe an ambi-safety is nice to have.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

boone nc said:


> Thanks for the replys guys, I have not checked this in a while, sorry for not responding sooner,
> 
> Gideon, I didnt know that a conceal weapon could not have trigger work done on it? Where or what is the law that says this? Not doubting you just want to know for my own personnel knowledge.
> 
> ...


 I didn't say that it was illegal, I did say that it wasn't a good idea and could land you in court. 

There is no "legal standard" for trigger pulls on weapons manufactured or sold in the United States. The courts have recognized what has become known an Industry Accepted Standard, or a minimum safe trigger pull weight. These standards are noted in the manufacturing specs for every weapon, and are regarded on a per gun basis. Altering a trigger to break at less pressure than these standards puts a shooter, (justified or not), into the realm of accidental discharges. (whether accidental or not). More often, but not always this is a fact, scenario, that becomes more prevalent in civil, rather than criminal cases. It is a fact that has been a costly lesson for both Police Departments, and Gun Manufacturers alike.


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## Deep River (Jun 29, 2005)

GIDEON said:


> Trigger alterations on a concealed weapon piece could land you in court, if you ever had to use it





Bucket-Back said:


> I've started more than one argument with that bit of wisdom.


Can either of you cite any incident or occurrence where this made any difference in a justified self defense shooting?

I've heard this before & I'm wondering if its based on fact (actual case law) or hearsay.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Deep River said:


> Can either of you cite any incident or occurrence where this made any difference in a justified self defense shooting?
> 
> I've heard this before & I'm wondering if its based on fact (actual case law) or hearsay.


 Two quick ones were on my mind:

1). Santibanes - vs City - of Tomball Texas_____________Loss of Civil suit

2). New York - vs - Frank Maglito________________shooter convicted of murder


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

I could see how a lawyer could use that against you. I would have to assume that a manufacture says that the preset trigger pull is the least that one should have? Is that a correct thinking? For example, and im not even sure if you can adjust a Glock trigger safely, but if it comes preset at 5.5 lbs, and you adjusted it to say 4, I wonder if that is considered to low? I would bet for lawsuit purposes that is the way it is. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for the good insight, worth of noting to say the least.


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## Bucket-Back (Feb 8, 2004)

For competition or recreational shooting a lighter trigger is OK. But the practice you get isn't the same as your EDC, so I took out my 3.5 Ghost Ultimate connector in my Glock and put the stock one back in, as advised by Massad Ayoob

A lot of the internet BS saying it's OK to change the trigger comes from the guys who make money off doing so.


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## Deep River (Jun 29, 2005)

GIDEON said:


> Two quick ones were on my mind:
> 
> 1). Santibanes - vs City - of Tomball Texas_____________Loss of Civil suit
> 
> 2). New York - vs - Frank Maglito________________shooter convicted of murder


My understanding in Michigan is that yes, you can have a suit brought against you in civil court. The (SDA) Self Defense Act does not create immunity from being sued. However, it sets up an affirmative defense in justified self defense shootings.

I don't know the laws of Texas or New York, but I believe that in a justified act of self defense in Michigan, the SDA would clearly be on your side, regardless of any modifications to your firearms.

A bit off topic, but what about those who add lasers, or lights, or have machine work done to their slides, or have grip reductions, or add the +2 mag extensions?

Sure, any civil attorney is going to bring up any and all possible things in an attempt to jam you up in court. On the other hand a good criminal defense lawyer should have no problem dismissing the assumptions that any of these features led to an unjustified shooting.

I have 3 such attorneys I can contact, that I trust in matters like this.
I hope it never comes to that, but if it does, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Also, I don't believe in "accidental discharges". I believe in negligent discharges. Those occur when proper firearms safety rules are not followed, and can happen regardless of trigger weight. Cases like this are not what I'm referring to above.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Deep River said:


> My understanding in Michigan is that yes, you can have a suit brought against you in civil court. The (SDA) Self Defense Act does not create immunity from being sued. However, it sets up an affirmative defense in justified self defense shootings.
> 
> I don't know the laws of Texas or New York, but I believe that in a justified act of self defense in Michigan, the SDA would clearly be on your side, regardless of any modifications to your firearms.
> 
> ...


 Laser sights, lights, tuning of firearms serves to enhance the operations of a firearm. A laser sight does not replace the weapons original sighting platform, nor does tuning a firearm, the specified function of the gun remains the same, it is now enhanced. However with a "trigger job" the specific function is altered. You have not enhanced a 4lb trigger, but rather altered it to be something else. In most cases, a lesser trigger pull weight. In many, if not all cases, altered to something less than the industry accepted standard.

The testosterone raising phrase "I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6", works well on forums such as this. In reality, if you were carried by six, it would realistically be by six like minded people who shared your views, opinions and actions. Not so with a jury, they could very easily be 12 non gun owners, liberals, radicals, pro gun, or pro gun control. Its a toss up.

With a "trigger job" you cant even get the NRA to realistically support you. Seems that they set a precedent by requiring a 4 lb trigger pull on pistols used in many of there matches. 

You say negligent, they say accidental, at the end of the day your jury will be made up of 12 people with real life experience that have taught them that no one is perfect and that accidents happen.

Its your a** and assets, if you have taken the steps, actions, to protect one if not both of them, wouldn't it also be prudent to also protect them from the after affects of those steps and actions. If a court verdict, decision hinged to whether you had a 4.5 trigger pull, or a 3.5 trigger pull, or an unaltered weapon. Which would be the most prudent to have.


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## Deep River (Jun 29, 2005)

This discussion is purely hypothetical on my end. All my pistols have factory triggers.

However, if a verdict rests solely on a lighter trigger weight and not the fact of whether one is justified or not...God help us, there is a serious flaw in the process.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Deep River said:


> This discussion is purely hypothetical on my end. All my pistols have factory triggers.
> 
> However, if a verdict rests solely on a lighter trigger weight and not the fact of whether one is justified or not...God help us, there is a serious flaw in the process.



Oddly enough, criminal prosecution probably dont, Civilly it could be a whole different scenario


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## Bucket-Back (Feb 8, 2004)

GIDEON said:


> Oddly enough, criminal prosecution probably dont, Civilly it could be a whole different scenario


Most people who support the altered trigger have one altered , or they alter them and make $$$. Lawyers also say it's OK to alter triggeres, but guess what? They make money defending you on it.


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## Deep River (Jun 29, 2005)

GIDEON said:


> Oddly enough, criminal prosecution probably dont, Civilly it could be a whole different scenario


Yes, beyond a reasonable doubt vs. preponderance of the evidence.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Deep River said:


> Yes, beyond a reasonable doubt vs. preponderance of the evidence.


 ya know which is easier too? I just always considered it prudent to cma as much a I could


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Bucket-Back said:


> Most people who support the altered trigger have one altered , or they alter them and make $$$. Lawyers also say it's OK to alter triggeres, but guess what? They make money defending you on it.


Interesting points


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

SO after hearing all of this, woudl you think that a shooting case out of self defense would actually come down to the deciding factor of a trigger job? I would think that if someon admitted to shooting the person out of self defense that would over ride the "accidental" discharge deal. There would be no accident if you meant to shoot, what you think?


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## Bucket-Back (Feb 8, 2004)

There is no such thing as a justifiable accidental discharge. The DA or the slimeball families lawyer will say in the heat of the moment, with all the stress, you get shaky and the lightened or altered trigger went off by accident, and a stock trigger wouldn't have. 
Then they will say the slimeball was giving up and was no longer a threat and that you are just claiming Self Defense to cover up your accidental shooting.

I took out my 3.5 connector in my Glock and put the stock 5.5 one back in.

It was only a $20 reversible experiment and 5 minutes of labor


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

boone nc said:


> SO after hearing all of this, woudl you think that a shooting case out of self defense would actually come down to the deciding factor of a trigger job? I would think that if someon admitted to shooting the person out of self defense that would over ride the "accidental" discharge deal. There would be no accident if you meant to shoot, what you think?


Did you happen to look up the cases I used as examples,


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

There's no reason to alter the trigger unless you are shooting competition or target. Criminally you would probably only be charged if the light pull was why it went off and hurt someone. In a legitimate self defense scenario, while you probably wouldn't be charged criminally or get dismissed, a civil suit is a whole different ball game and the burden to meet isn't as high...just ask OJ. One would have to ask themselves what they would gain from working the trigger in a self defense weapon?


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## Bucket-Back (Feb 8, 2004)

GIDEON said:


> Did you happen to look up the cases I used as examples,


I did :idea:


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

Gideon, I did look up and read about both cases. The issues I have with both, they were both accidents in nature, neither were intentional according to what i read.

The first, NY v/s Magli... This gentlemen was attacked 2 times, by the same guy in one day? On the second attack he cocked his revolver and accidently discharged which accordiing to what I read Mag admitted it was an accidental discharge and that he probably would not have pulled the trigger had he not cocked his revolver for single action use. Obviously I was not there, Obviously I do not know what the heck Magli was doing going back to where he was attacked but I do think there was more to this case which lead up to the point at which he cocked his weapon. Its unfortunate if he did intend on shooting the attacker andd it was turned around on him that it was an accident but from what i read, he admitted it was an accident.

The second on the Partrolman in TX, he was juiced up with adrenaline, jumped out of his patrol car and when he drew down on the subject vehicle he pulled the trigger. He did not mean to, there fore making it an accident. The civil ct jumped all over that, which I could see why. The officer is now doing training on where to keep your trigger finger after upholstering your weapon, so he knows what he did and where it went wrong.

Not that you or anyone could not read what i just did, but both of these were accidents and it was obvious that it was an accident. My point is that if you mean to shoot someone out of self defense, it makes no difference whether the trigger is factory or professionally set lower. The issue as i see it, comes when you didnt mean to shoot and the gun went off. At which point you are going to be ate up by the civil ct.

Of course, this may just be my opinion because I hate to think our judicial system is this wacked and cannot see right and wrong and reads so much into the gray. It frustrates the heck out of me to even think about what is gotten away with and what is convicted when it shouldnt be.

Sorry for the rant, I can see both sides and you cant always think like normal people in this situation and have to cover your tail at all times. It is probably safer in the long run to not carry a modified weapon or a revolver that can be used in single action or a gun, or a knife or a bat or a stick or a pencil or even going out at all for that matter


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## Bucket-Back (Feb 8, 2004)

The Cop had his adrenaline pumping, and they deal with perps all the time. How do you think you will do in the same situation, having hopefully far less exposure to that stuff?


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

Hopefully I will never have to come to that but hopefully training and practice come in to action and my finger stays where it is supposed to, outside the trigger guard. One could what if things to death, but if I was that worried about accidently shooting my weapon, I should not be carrying it. Im not saying do not be careful or never think what could happen but you have to rely on sense and training at some point if you are responsible enough to carry a conceal weapon or any weapon at that. In that situation, 1.5 lbs of pull is not going to make that big of a difference, if your finger is where it should not be, the gun has a chance of firing.

I hope this does not sound like I am angry at anyones point of view, I am however dissapointed at the fact that one has to worry about such things as trigger alterations due to the fact our Judicial system has worked it against law abiding citizens. Is this unrational?


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## Bucket-Back (Feb 8, 2004)

Good Luck on whatever you decide to do, you have been presented information, its up to you how to process it and use it.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

I guess I don't see the need for it. About the only thing it does is allows for better group shooting. Same applies to light triggers in rifles. Do you really need minute groups in either for hunting or self defense? No. You need shooting adequate enough to hit an animals vitals at the ranges you expect to be shooting or be able to hit center mass at the same.


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks for all the information, I have taken it in and its been good information to know. The OP was me inquiring on which model gun come factory with the lightest trigger or which manufacture could be adjusted safely for a lighter trigger pull. The reason for this is due to trigger finger strength issues.

After reading all the info, I would say a mans safest bet would be to find a factory set trigger that is light enough. That way you are out of the gray area concerning modified or not modified if heaven forbid you ever got into a deadly force situation. This whole conversation was brought on due to someone looking out for mine and others best interest concerning carrying an altered weapon. 

Thanks for that, now the hunt begins for a new pistol!


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Ruger SR1911 come out of the box at about 4.5 lbs trigger pull.


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks for the info, i had forgotten about the Rugers. Are they still hard to come by? I know for a while they had a long waiting list.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

boone nc said:


> Thanks for the info, i had forgotten about the Rugers. Are they still hard to come by? I know for a while they had a long waiting list.


 There getting easier, but demand has somewhat affected the price. 

Ironically both of the cases I listed as references, the weapons had a trigger pull of 4.5lbs., but the 1911 for more than a century has had the same general trigger pull weight, 4.5lbs, yet that is deemed acceptable. 

To say the least it pays to be diligent with the atmosphere surrounding self defense weapons and the law, especially civil law. And since many out of court settlements with non-disclosure agreements are negotiated, that is almost impossible to stay abreast of, The little dutch boy and the leaky dike was a walk in the park compared to these situations.

Be cautious is the key words


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

I will check on the Ruger again with a little more diligence. I have had a couple of friends who have Glocks for sale and if I find the right one I am probably just going to go with one of them. If for nothing else than reliability and cost.

You are spot on concerning being cautios. Its frustrating just to think of all of the things that the civil court could use against you. Sometimes I think perps have as many if not more rights that the victims and that is not right.

Thanks again


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## Bucket-Back (Feb 8, 2004)

L** 000 and above serials on Glocks Gen 3 and 4 may have MIM extractors and may or may not eject brass to your face

MY PCG 000 serial G19 Gen 3 from 12/2009 had the new style extractor and needed a update with new style ejector to correct the new style extractor causing erratic ejection patterns. Clear as mud?

It sold the day after the update

I have my trusty 2005 Glock G19 still.


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

I just picked up a Glock 21 in 45 auto. I still like the Glock but this one is a little to heavy even without the clip and ammo. I want something that will most likely be a vehicle companion most of its life but would still like to be able to carry it comfortably. I just dont think this one will carry very well for me. The skinny guy gene is not good in this aspect.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

boone nc said:


> I just picked up a Glock 21 in 45 auto. I still like the Glock but this one is a little to heavy even without the clip and ammo. I want something that will most likely be a vehicle companion most of its life but would still like to be able to carry it comfortably. I just dont think this one will carry very well for me. The skinny guy gene is not good in this aspect.


Good choice, but glocks can be a little weighty
I know what you mean about the skinny guy gene, I remember many many years ago when I had it,

BTW....I wasn't getting, and didn't mean to get confrontational in any way, just wanted to throw out a bit of info, sort of food for thought.

Check this out for a skinny dude pocket piece:Takes a little getting use to but diffidently not an over there piece

http://www.gunblast.com/IO-Hellcat.htm

Up past 1500 rnds since Christmas, runs great not 1 jam.


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## rmw (Feb 21, 2006)

boone nc said:


> SO after hearing all of this, woudl you think that a shooting case out of self defense would actually come down to the deciding factor of a trigger job? I would think that if someon admitted to shooting the person out of self defense that would over ride the "accidental" discharge deal. There would be no accident if you meant to shoot, what you think?


It really depends on each individual case and how the prosecuting attorney is and how good your defense is . This guy was demonized for using a 10MM , IMO his 1st defenses was not good but any way you cut it his life has been disrupted severely and so has his bank acct 

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

A trigger job or reloads ,caliber may never become an issue , but if you want to be on the safe side use a gun and ammo that allot of police agency's use . One of the biggest things is get some good training, at the very least don't take the shortest/easiest cpl class you can get a good one, many have a lawyer that gives you the law and answers questions 

If you need a crisp 4.5lb pull there are allot of 1911's out there that can give you that from the factory . I used to work for a guy in CA that was a expert witness for shootings and pretty much if the trigger has positive sear engagement angle's and is above 4.5 lbs it is defensible in court and two stage is better than single . But there have been cases where where PA's have went after 1911's because of there single action mec or the use of evil HP bullets , basically if they decide to prosecute they will do whatever they feel they need to do to win . They will probably come confiscate you computer/phone to see what sites you post on to get quotes and prove your mindset . Watch what you FB or tweet big brother is watching you :evil:


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## boone nc (Dec 10, 2005)

Gideon, that is a sweet little booger! I like the fact it is made in the USA and NC for that matter, kind of hits home! No worries on apologizing, I would be way more upset if someone new such food for thought and decided not to tell it just for the sake of sounding confrontational. The only thing I found myself getting heated about was the fact our judicial system has allowed that kind of thing to happen. So thanks for all the good info.

If you dont mind me asking what does a Hell Cat set you back? My wife is actually planning to take her class next month in Gaylord and I would really like to get her a gun that she was comfortable shooting. She looks like Dirty hairy wheeling that Glock 21! 

RMW, I agree totally with what you said about if they want to prosecute they can and will find something to go after you with. Whether it be your weapon, ammo or the fact you post regulaly on the local sportsmans forum, I guess I am screwed on that deal!


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

boone nc said:


> Gideon, that is a sweet little booger! I like the fact it is made in the USA and NC for that matter, kind of hits home! No worries on apologizing, I would be way more upset if someone new such food for thought and decided not to tell it just for the sake of sounding confrontational. The only thing I found myself getting heated about was the fact our judicial system has allowed that kind of thing to happen. So thanks for all the good info.
> 
> If you dont mind me asking what does a Hell Cat set you back? My wife is actually planning to take her class next month in Gaylord and I would really like to get her a gun that she was comfortable shooting. She looks like Dirty hairy wheeling that Glock 21!
> 
> RMW, I agree totally with what you said about if they want to prosecute they can and will find something to go after you with. Whether it be your weapon, ammo or the fact you post regulaly on the local sportsmans forum, I guess I am screwed on that deal!


$242 out the door at Gander Mountain. Didnt really "shop around"....................................Murphy N.C.


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## DaGuy (Jan 13, 2011)

GIDEON said:


> Good choice, but glocks can be a little weighty
> I know what you mean about the skinny guy gene, I remember many many years ago when I had it,
> 
> BTW....I wasn't getting, and didn't mean to get confrontational in any way, just wanted to throw out a bit of info, sort of food for thought.
> ...


Hey guys, some of those "mouse guns"  can have "snappy" recoil. The size is nice but you have to be able to hold on to it. I know a couple of "skinny guys" that traded up to a Glock 26 to overcome fear of "snap". A woman can shoot anything a skinny guy can but to become proficient, comfort is a must. Just food for thought.


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