# Muskegon River Guide Busted for Chumming!!!



## riverman

Boozer said:


> perhaps similar things would happen if someone was to go and fish bait in the flies only section of rivers. I am not willing to try it, but is interesting...


How many warnings do you think I'll get before they throw the book at me?:lol:


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## Boozer

riverman said:


> How many warnings do you think I'll get before they throw the book at me?:lol:


Exactly why I'm not willing to try it! LOL


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## thousandcasts

Boozer said:


> *Just one thing that perhaps is being overlooked here...
> 
> The reasoning for the judge throwing it out of court. If I am understanding it correctly, this judge looked at the facts and deemed it a ridiculous law, setting a precedent that, this law is essentially useless.
> 
> So, I ask, we all know the law has no real legit reasoning behind it, at least in regards to where the incident took place, so why be upset when a court realized this? Technically because VHS already exists in Lake Michigan, chumming of eggs in sections of river that migratory species can reach is supposed to be legal again anyway...*While I may not have any desire to chum and the law does not effect me, a law that serves no real purpose is BS and this sets a precedent if you will in regards to gear restrictions as well.
> 
> A judge has taken a similar based law and thrown it out of court when the MDNR attempted to prosecute for breaking it, perhaps similar things would happen if someone was to go and fish bait in the flies only section of rivers. I am not willing to try it, but is interesting...


I'm sure as heck not over looking that. Since I've been absolutely 100% AGAINST what was supposed to be a *temporary* chum ban from day one--The fact that a judge threw the case out is *HUGE* from my perspective and your points are dead on.


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## Boozer

Hutch,

I definitely didn't think you over-looked that.


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## TSS Caddis

2PawsRiver said:


> I wish those flyfishing guys would get Obama out of office, ease the gas prices, and rid us unemployment and welfare..........


So stupid a quote, I don't even know how to reply 

Perhaps you don't know the history of who was championing the chumming ban, even though SplitShot has spelled it out umteen times and many of us have attended meetings where Borgeson rambled on and on about how the biggest threat to our cold water fishery is chumming.


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## swampbuck

This case is simular to the Snowman cam/deer baiting case.....The MDNR can file an appeal as they did in that case. He did get away with it........But it DID NOT result in baiting being legal

I doubt that this is over.


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## thousandcasts

Boozer said:


> Hutch,
> 
> I definitely didn't think you over-looked that.


Very true. :lol::lol::lol:


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## bombcast

in this age of activist judges, etc, wasn't the law overturned from the bench? If they're not enforcing the law, why not overturn?

In other words, if the egg is legit, you got to acquit. 

Nevermind.


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## Putman Lake Campground

Steelee said:


> he is a great outdoorsman and a good friend.
> 
> Regards, Steelee


Steelee,

There are always two sides to every story. Thank you much for your input.

I remember a time I was illegal, not knowingly an un named DNR officer told me "please go read this years rule book" I did, and I learned Perch/blue gill limits were no longer "when the bucket is full"

Not all violations make us bad people. 

The first year they set a season on smelt I didn't realize it and not only loaded up 2 days early, but shared a few 5 gallon buckets with local law enforcement, they didn't know the new law either.

Does that make me a bad guy and does that make that officer a dirty cop?

Again thanks for the input. Many of the River guides are terrific folks some scratching a living, others doing well (dependent upon the economy and natures cooperation, coupled with marketing skills). I've only met two guides in all of my years that I can not find respect for. Guiding is a hard earned living that requires talent that is only gained through hard continuous work. 

Who staged the complaints, how legitimate where they? If the judge actually threw it out that fast, did the officers act a little prematurely? How legitimate where the warnings? 

I'm not going to judge a guide negatively over an act that the judge tossed out.
Nor will I encourage legal violations of the law, whether or not I like or respect the law.


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## samsteel

skamania18 said:


> I also wish more people understood that MDNR should have more important things to do. Flossing or lining fish off gravel should be addressed.
> Regards, Mr. B.


that is hilarious coming from you!! thanks for the laugh:lol:


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## centerpin

Thanks for clearing what happened up CB. 

We are all entitled to our mistakes and people should get second chances. Thanks for owning up to yours. I apologize for any words that came across as harsh. I did jump the gun and reacted on impulse. I am sorry for that. 

As stated I have never had a bad experience from you while fishing and I have defended you during conversations with "other" guides as such.

If the ban on chumming is lifted I will deal with it and fish as I always have. There I have eaten my words.


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## REG

bombcast said:


> In other words, if the egg is legit, you got to acquit.
> 
> .


If the chum goes "plop", prosecution can't do squat.


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## Back Country

As predicted earlier by post #27, silence eventually became deafening.


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## thousandcasts

If we're talking about this particular situation, the biggest problem I have is with how this all went down. I mean, it's the whole "glass houses" thing. 

I'll give you a perfect example. Last year, I got wind of one particular guide who didn't like the fact that my rates are lower than most out there. It wasn't one of the big guys out there--they have their client base and I'm not hurting them one bit. In fact, I like Mr. B and he's been nothing but supportive of what I'm doing and over the years he's turned me on to a lot of spots and advice. He knows I'm just doing my little one man operation and I'm not hurting him or any of the other big name guides one bit. However, there's one wanna be big gun who I heard through the grapevine was gonna try and get me busted for guiding without a license. Why? Because he didn't like the fact that I was charging less than he was. More so, I think it came down to the fact that during salmon season (cranks and spawn), he's rolling in to the launch and taking pictures of two fish and my clients are taking pics of 10 fish. Oh...so he gets pissed and assumes I don't have a license or what not. He has plenty of opportunity to man up and come talk to me face to face, but...nope. Doesn't even look at me when he passes me on the river. One day, I held my license up when he passed me and gave him that "yeah, I know who are and what you're up to," look and...you guessed it, tight lipped as usual. Meanwhile, while he thinks he's gonna get me for no license, which I have and can always produce upon request, he's getting any Joe with a boat to take clients out for him and these guys have no license. 

Point being--people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones, and that's exactly what went down in this situation. 

I'll give another example--hypothetical, but I'm sure it'll apply. How many of these guys screaming "prosecute him! Throw the book at him!" have sparked one up and think a good day fishing involves being high? How many have been tipping back a twelve pack in the boat and then drive off after the boat is back on the trailer. Oh, but that's OK right? It's the throwing the eggs in the water that's the REAL crime, huh? Really? 

*This isn't even a bait v fly guy situation *since there's fly guys that'll chum up a run and then run egg flies through it. Hell, *it's not even a steelhead issue* since the guys who fish Whitefish have been hit by this temporary ban as well. You think a lot of those whitefish guys aren't out there chumming up an area? 

Again, my biggest problem with this is the whole glass houses thing. Think about that and take it for what it's worth--it's just my own opinion, but I think there's some merit to my problem with all of this. I mean, these guys are gonna sit there and make 50 calls to the DNR and why? Because they're jealous that they're getting their ***** handed to them by the one guide they're calling about. Meanwhile, they've taken TSS Caddis's 8 point tutorial (see his earlier post) to a whole new level. Again...really???


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## tannhd

This thread is full of blanket statements, overgeneralizations and assumptions. The best part is that 95% of you are all saying the same thing, just in different ways. 

Funny stuff all around. :lol:


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## Shoeman

thousandcasts said:


> If we're talking about this particular situation, the biggest problem I have is with how this all went down. I mean, it's the whole "glass houses" thing.
> 
> I'll give you a perfect example. Last year, I got wind of one particular guide who didn't like the fact that my rates are lower than most out there. It wasn't one of the big guys out there--they have their client base and I'm not hurting them one bit. In fact, I like Mr. B and he's been nothing but supportive of what I'm doing and over the years he's turned me on to a lot of spots and advice. He knows I'm just doing my little one man operation and I'm not hurting him or any of the other big name guides one bit. However, there's one wanna be big gun who I heard through the grapevine was gonna try and get me busted for guiding without a license. Why? Because he didn't like the fact that I was charging less than he was. More so, I think it came down to the fact that during salmon season (cranks and spawn), he's rolling in to the launch and taking pictures of two fish and my clients are taking pics of 10 fish. Oh...so he gets pissed and assumes I don't have a license or what not. He has plenty of opportunity to man up and come talk to me face to face, but...nope. Doesn't even look at me when he passes me on the river. One day, I held my license up when he passed me and gave him that "yeah, I know who are and what you're up to," look and...you guessed it, tight lipped as usual. Meanwhile, while he thinks he's gonna get me for no license, which I have and can always produce upon request, he's getting any Joe with a boat to take clients out for him and these guys have no license.
> 
> Point being--people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones, and that's exactly what went down in this situation.
> 
> I'll give another example--hypothetical, but I'm sure it'll apply. How many of these guys screaming "prosecute him! Throw the book at him!" have sparked one up and think a good day fishing involves being high? How many have been tipping back a twelve pack in the boat and then drive off after the boat is back on the trailer. Oh, but that's OK right? It's the throwing the eggs in the water that's the REAL crime, huh? Really?
> 
> *This isn't even a bait v fly guy situation *since there's fly guys that'll chum up a run and then run egg flies through it. Hell, *it's not even a steelhead issue* since the guys who fish Whitefish have been hit by this temporary ban as well. You think a lot of those whitefish guys aren't out there chumming up an area?
> 
> Again, my biggest problem with this is the whole glass houses thing. Think about that and take it for what it's worth--it's just my own opinion, but I think there's some merit to my problem with all of this. I mean, these guys are gonna sit there and make 50 calls to the DNR and why? Because they're jealous that they're getting their ***** handed to them by the one guide they're calling about. Meanwhile, they've taken TSS Caddis's 8 point tutorial (see his earlier post) to a whole new level. Again...really???


We get it already, you guide...

Why does every other post of yours include a comment about you guiding?

Thought you hated guides. Somehow "river whores" comes to mind 

Now you're a cheap river whore.. :SHOCKED:


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## Chromedoggy

tannhd said:


> This thread is full of blanket statements, overgeneralizations and assumptions. The best part is that 95% of you are all saying the same thing, just in different ways.
> 
> Funny stuff all around. :lol:


All I am getting out of this is
"It's a silly law so we are entitled to break it"
Blah Blah Blah
"It's all the guiding community's fault"
Blah Blah


Maybe I should start a thread-Snagging should be legal, so everyone should do it intentionally.

The law is the law
Props to those who work to have it changed if they don't agree

Guides and Captains (and those guiding w/o a Captain's license in required areas) need to police each other's actions. The lack of enforcement is ridiculous.

On the lighter side, there is a pretty interesting statement on a particular 
Muskegon guide with lodge's web page.

The fight continues..........


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## Boozer

Chromedoggy said:


> All I am getting out of this is
> "It's a silly law so we are entitled to break it"
> Blah Blah Blah
> "It's all the guiding community's fault"
> Blah Blah
> 
> 
> Maybe I should start a thread-Snagging should be legal, so everyone should do it intentionally.
> 
> The law is the law
> Props to those who work to have it changed if they don't agree
> 
> Guides and Captains (and those guiding w/o a Captain's license in required areas) need to police each other's actions. The lack of enforcement is ridiculous.
> 
> On the lighter side, there is a pretty interesting statement on a particular
> Muskegon guide with lodge's web page.
> 
> The fight continues..........


So are you saying that you wish we would have just went along with the silly laws we have been forced to follow all through history?

Such as the laws and taxes England wanted to impose upon use before we fought for our freedom.

It's not really about this specific law per say, it's about having a few people with money making all of us follow rules that have no real reasoning, other than these individuals get off on having the ability to make everyone live in their World.

Screw that...


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## salmo'dog

Shoeman said:


> We get it already, you guide...
> 
> Why does every other post of yours include a comment about you guiding?
> 
> Thought you hated guides. Somehow "river whores" comes to mind
> 
> Now you're a cheap river whore.. :SHOCKED:


Sorry to say, but if this statement was to posted by any member other than a moderator, a strike or issue of being banned would take place.

I thought this was a "family oriented" website?

How can this become an even playing field?


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## Chromedoggy

Boozer said:


> So are you saying that you wish we would have just went along with the silly laws we have been forced to follow all through history?
> 
> Such as the laws and taxes England wanted to impose upon use before we fought for our freedom.
> 
> It's not really about this specific law per say, it's about having a few people with money making all of us follow rules that have no real reasoning, other than these individuals get off on having the ability to make everyone live in their World.
> 
> Screw that...


Not at all
The law is the law- props to those who try to change it. If violating the law is the way to reach change-fine. But complaining about how unfair the enforcement on the violation is, and statements of how someone else or something else should be enforced does not lead to the end trying to be achieved.

When the Boston Tea Party took place, the battle cry was not "You should tax the French instead!" 

As far as basis for this law, put in place to prevent an immediate threat is fine. I think most agree it has outlived it's usefulness.


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## Shoeman

salmo'dog said:


> Sorry to say, but if this statement was to posted by any member other than a moderator, a strike or issue of being banned would take place.
> 
> I thought this was a "family oriented" website?
> 
> How can this become an even playing field?




I doubt it!

Besides that phrase came from Hutch's own writings :help:


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## Boozer

Chromedoggy said:


> Not at all
> The law is the law- props to those who try to change it. If violating the law is the way to reach change-fine. But complaining about how unfair the enforcement on the violation is, and statements of how someone else or something else should be enforced does not lead to the end trying to be achieved.
> 
> When the Boston Tea Party took place, the battle cry was not "You should tax the French instead!"
> 
> As far as basis for this law, put in place to prevent an immediate threat is fine. I think most agree it has outlived it's usefulness.


I guess I don't understand where anyone is saying anything along the lines of what you are saying, but in the grand scheme of things, doesn't really matter.

Quite possibly the biggest thing I have gotten from all of this, the Winter blues have set in and there is a lot of guys whom are a wee bit grumpy and need to get outside and play, I know I do...


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## thousandcasts

Shoeman said:


> I doubt it!
> 
> Besides that phrase came from Hutch's own writings :help:


I might have to argue that. The "W" word isn't one that I tend to use. I mean, I could be wrong--I've been on here...how many years? Half the time I can't remember what I said a month ago, let alone 2, 3, 5 years ago. However, I went to the advanced search function to check and typed in the W word as a keyword and then find all posts by my user name. This is what it came up with: 

"Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms." 

Now, you might be confusing the W word with the P word that rhymes with "limp." Yes, I've used that in the past. So if one is suggesting that I may or may not hypothetically have pearl handled revolvers as opposed to ivory ones (see Patton for exact reference), then...one certainly has the ammo to metaphorically and in the hypothetical sense call me out on that.


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## TSS Caddis

salmo'dog said:


> Sorry to say, but if this statement was to posted by any member other than a moderator, a strike or issue of being banned would take place.
> 
> I thought this was a "family oriented" website?
> 
> How can this become an even playing field?


I think one of Hutches examples hit too close to home for Shoeman







:lol:


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## Chromedoggy

Boozer said:


> I guess I don't understand where anyone is saying anything along the lines of what you are saying, but in the grand scheme of things, doesn't really matter.
> 
> Quite possibly the biggest thing I have gotten from all of this, the Winter blues have set in and there is a lot of guys whom are a wee bit grumpy and need to get outside and play, I know I do...



There is such a cluster **** of issues right now, and a new one starting on the AS and White River watershed, my rants could be blending together.:evil:


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## Boozer

Chromedoggy said:


> There is such a cluster **** of issues right now, and a new one starting on the AS and White River watershed, my rants could be blending together.:evil:


What are these new issues on White and AS you speak of???


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## RyanV

( Several of the days he called, I was Christmas shopping with my girlfriend, not fishing) I'm sure Ginn was tired of hearing from Orbit Guide and wanted his phone to stop ringing off the hook. 


If you could prove that with a credit card statement or something it could prove "filing a false report" 

I have no dog in this fight, but have been wrongfully accused and can tell you there is a reason "bearing false witness" is one of the 10 commandments.


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## UNREEL

Shoeman said:


> I doubt it!


I don't doubt it. For some of you moderators, being "in charge" around here makes you feel as if anything you say is gospel. Its pathetic, really, that this being an internet message board is the place where you finally have some authority over the general public, you take this " Hhmph, I'm a Moderator" personna. Gay. I know for a fact if I came out and flat out called another member here a name it would be a strike or whatever. If the tables were turned on you, someone would get banned. I expect this post to be moderated or deleted, that's just how it is here. Calling out a moderator in public is one of the highest crimes here on m-s, but so what. Just sayin, this is a family sight. I had to explain to my son who read this post what a "river whore" was because of you. And you are supposed to be one of the good guys. Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shoeman

thousandcasts said:


> I might have to argue that. The "W" word isn't one that I tend to use. I mean, I could be wrong--I've been on here...how many years? Half the time I can't remember what I said a month ago, let alone 2, 3, 5 years ago. However, I went to the advanced search function to check and typed in the W word as a keyword and then find all posts by my user name. This is what it came up with:
> 
> "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms."
> 
> Now, you might be confusing the W word with the P word that rhymes with "limp." Yes, I've used that in the past. So if one is suggesting that I may or may not hypothetically have pearl handled revolvers as opposed to ivory ones (see Patton for exact reference), then...one certainly has the ammo to metaphorically and in the hypothetical sense call me out on that.


I guess it was used in a somewhat different context. :lol:




I'm awake Shoeman...but since I'm a lowly bait dunker, I figured "mah input weren't worth a gol dang anyway!" Besides, I was busy cloggin up a hole! 

Quote:
What I'm saying, TC, if we didn't have all these people fishing, and hunting, would you be a writer at all?
In all honesty, yes I would as I've been doing some form of creative writing since I was in middle school. What got me into the outdoor thing for awhile was when someone read some stuff I did in one of my (community) college creative writing classes and they asked me if I'd do some stuff for the Michigan Steelheaders newspaper, since I was a member at the time. The evil of it is this, it's fairly easy money if you have knowledge of the sport and you can write a coherent sentence. You spend a few hours typing up an article and if it gets published, you get a check for, let's say, $100.00 depending on the publication. Do two or three of those a month, and it's a good way to add to your monthly income without having to take on a 2nd job. The problem is when it gets repetetive and you have to start profiling certain rivers in order to have subject matter, ie: "The K'Zoo's Slamming Steelhead Fishery: Michigan's Best Kept Secret!" Now, some writers can do that and not give a rip--me? I did one of those types of articles and after it got published, I realized that I was a whore (for lack of a better word, please don't give me a strike!)--pimping out a river system for $100. I refuse to do that ever again and thus, I am "retired" from writing monthly articles. I've tried to write articles that teach ettiquette and or responsibility for the resource (anti snagging, cleaning up, etc) but the response to those is like being a stand up comedian playing in an empty auditorium (you can hear the crickets chirping). But to answer the question, would I be a writer if it wasn't for the outdoor articles? Yes, I'm currently working on a horror novel that was actually an idea I began to develop several years before I started doing any outdoor articles. It sure beats the hell out of trying to come up with creative ways to describe river salmon fishing. I mean, how many times can you read lines like "The aggressive king salmon charged from 10 yards away and crushed my black whooly bugger like a Porshe at full tilt on the Autoban" When in reality, it should read, "Yeah, the gnarly old king saw my sinkers coming at him and when he tried to get out of the way, he swam into my 6' leader and I nailed him right in the jaw with that fly!" 
__________________
Michigan River Anglers Association
Last edited by thousandcasts; 04-26-2005 at 03:50 PM.


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## riverman

One of the better guides on the PM who is always friendly said it best with what was wrote on the back of his old boat. "Pimping ain't easy"!!!!!!!!!!


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## thousandcasts

Shoeman said:


> I guess it was used in a somewhat different context. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm awake Shoeman...but since I'm a lowly bait dunker, I figured "mah input weren't worth a gol dang anyway!" Besides, I was busy cloggin up a hole!
> 
> Quote:
> What I'm saying, TC, if we didn't have all these people fishing, and hunting, would you be a writer at all?
> In all honesty, yes I would as I've been doing some form of creative writing since I was in middle school. What got me into the outdoor thing for awhile was when someone read some stuff I did in one of my (community) college creative writing classes and they asked me if I'd do some stuff for the Michigan Steelheaders newspaper, since I was a member at the time. The evil of it is this, it's fairly easy money if you have knowledge of the sport and you can write a coherent sentence. You spend a few hours typing up an article and if it gets published, you get a check for, let's say, $100.00 depending on the publication. Do two or three of those a month, and it's a good way to add to your monthly income without having to take on a 2nd job. The problem is when it gets repetetive and you have to start profiling certain rivers in order to have subject matter, ie: "The K'Zoo's Slamming Steelhead Fishery: Michigan's Best Kept Secret!" Now, some writers can do that and not give a rip--me? I did one of those types of articles and after it got published, I realized that I was a whore (for lack of a better word, please don't give me a strike!)--pimping out a river system for $100. I refuse to do that ever again and thus, I am "retired" from writing monthly articles. I've tried to write articles that teach ettiquette and or responsibility for the resource (anti snagging, cleaning up, etc) but the response to those is like being a stand up comedian playing in an empty auditorium (you can hear the crickets chirping). But to answer the question, would I be a writer if it wasn't for the outdoor articles? Yes, I'm currently working on a horror novel that was actually an idea I began to develop several years before I started doing any outdoor articles. It sure beats the hell out of trying to come up with creative ways to describe river salmon fishing. I mean, how many times can you read lines like "The aggressive king salmon charged from 10 yards away and crushed my black whooly bugger like a Porshe at full tilt on the Autoban" When in reality, it should read, "Yeah, the gnarly old king saw my sinkers coming at him and when he tried to get out of the way, he swam into my 6' leader and I nailed him right in the jaw with that fly!"
> __________________
> Michigan River Anglers Association
> Last edited by thousandcasts; 04-26-2005 at 03:50 PM.


Yep...I guess I posted that at one time. Like you said though, that was a totally different context pertaining to writing-- and that was in 2005. And I stand by what you just posted above--to this day, I've written a grand total of one article since then and it was on presentation and reading water where no rivers were named. And yes, I still write, it's a passion of mine--just not fishing articles.


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## Chromedoggy

Boozer said:


> What are these new issues on White and AS you speak of???



Both the Kolke Creek issue and the Nestle Waters issue is quite likely going to be revisited by the Michigan Supreme Court


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## Boozer

Chromedoggy said:


> Both the Kolke Creek issue and the Nestle Waters issue is quite likely going to be revisited by the Michigan Supreme Court


Ridiculous....


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## Boozer

thousandcasts said:


> Yep...I guess I posted that at one time. Like you said though, that was a totally different context pertaining to writing-- and that was in 2005. And I stand by what you just posted above--to this day, I've written a grand total of one article since then and it was on presentation and reading water where no rivers were named. And yes, I still write, it's a passion of mine--just not fishing articles.


Hutch,

Now be honest here, you really write those romance novels that Woman love to read so much, don't you! LOL


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## thousandcasts

Boozer said:


> Hutch,
> 
> Now be honest here, you really write those romance novels that Woman love to read so much, don't you! LOL


Define "romance."  

Hey, there's quite the market for that out there. If I could write the following *without* my irritable bowel flaring up, then you're darn right I'd cash that check: 

"his heart beat faster as he took milady into his arms and embraced her. Their lips met and the euphoria of one shared breath, one immortal moment in time over took them. She sighed as they kissed ever deeper--knowing that they would finally spend forever as one." 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to get to the restroom quickly--kinda like when I think about writing a fishing article. :lol:


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## Shoeman

:yikes:

Better watch out, there's kids reading this. Then again, it is one of life's lessons...LOL. :gaga:


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## WALLDADY

GO EASY on that Hutch ,,,,,,,,,,,, You'll go blind ,,,,,,:yikes:


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## TSS Caddis

riverman said:


> One of the better guides on the PM who is always friendly said it best with what was wrote on the back of his old boat. "Pimping ain't easy"!!!!!!!!!!


Ha ha, saw a boat on the Big M last fall with that on it:lol:


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## Splitshot

Ralf,

I confess, I know that I have written those words before in that context, but remember the meeting we were at about the trophy regulations on the Muskegon. You know where all the guides were stating that they were catching trophy browns all summer. Heck, I think I even called them river whores at a public meeting as well.

I remember the guide who is using this issue to vilify another guide stomped out of the room after my little speech about how 30 or more of the members of this web-site spent 3 days fishing the whole upper stretch using crayfish, crickets, grasshoppers, worms, nightcrawlers, wax worms, spinners and plugs and how some of those 30 members were pretty good fishermen and women and the biggest fish caught was a 14 1/2 inch rainbow.

I know there are bigger fish in there, but they lied because they knew if the rules were changed more of the public would use the river and more people would be able to keep some trout for the frying pan.. it was a lame attempt to keep the public off a public resource so they could have more of those planted fish for their sports and gam bigger tips. Mr. S got so angry that he never spoke and walked out and left his wife try to make the case for him.

Guides that try to make rules for their own bottom line at the expense of the public do indeed fit the definition of river whores or river pimps and if anyone thinks that using that word in that context is corrupting your children, I apologize.


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## mich buckmaster

Boozer said:


> I want to know when they are going to dress in plain clothes and get the guides for snagging at the creek mouths down here on the Joe????


You know I dont fish much anymore being a serious deer hunter but I fish a lot in the creek mouths for Skamania and I for one have snagged quite a few, but put them back. Most fish if you ask me are snagged in some way even on a bed, or in a hole. Salmon/steelhead/trout all open and close their mouths and when you drift fish you are bound and determine to catch your line across the mouths with the bait SNAGGING their mouths as well. I know you are referring to the blantant snaggers of the old, but not all creek mouth fisherman are snaggers.


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## Speyday

Good Morning Folks,

since the thread is still alive, a morning thought or two.

Im being totally honest here. On the subject of the chumming. The real reason I mind? Its not due to the environment, or VHS, or hating bait fisherman. None of that.

I pull up to a hole thats just been chummed, my chances of getting a fish to eat my offering go down. WAY down if I am swinging a fly. There are so many weather and condition factors I contend against in nature, that dealing with man made barriers is irritating. Fly's make it tougher (but the presentation method is MY choice, I know that) BUT......Fish that remain in that hole and didn't get caught? are fed, and happy, now lulled/tired/satisfied for the day. 

Its a matter of courtesy and good etiquette that's violated silently. Kinda like a guy shuffling his feet just upstream of you, suddenly clouding up the hole and un-settling the fish your after. Ya know? Kinda like sloppy seconds or something.

Chummers----- would you want to pull up to a hole that you know has just been juiced for a half hour or more? Forget for a moment the skill level of the anglers who just left. And put your self in a wading or a drift boat position with no motor.

To the person who initially chummed and moved on, its a lousy 'leave'. And I don't have a jet boat where I can just run 2 miles down to a new spot on a whim. My water is defined and planned.

Tell you what. I am now seriously considering hitting water where most guides cannot operate to help reduce the chances of this. Becasue everyone is lurking and reading about this matter, and I bet theres gonna be a LOT more egg-plopping going on based on this precedent and lack of consequences. It has sent a message.

But also, with 12 chummers chumming, the more that people do it, it might be less effective since there's an over abundance of food. Consider 3 people in motor boats juiicing 3 holes per day. I bet those fish get mighty content down there.


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## REG

*However, study results did show that the trout fed with a corn diet did not digest the corn particularly well. The growth observed by the corn-fed trout during the study period was only about half of that observed from the trout that were fed the standard trout pellet diet.*

Maybe try something else,


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## Speyday

REG said:


> *However, study results did show that the trout fed with a corn diet did not digest the corn particularly well. The growth observed by the corn-fed trout during the study period was only about half of that observed from the trout that were fed the standard trout pellet diet.*
> 
> Maybe try something else,


I ate a handful of roe last night; ----and a handful of corn. My study corraborates this fact is true. This, after 2 cups of coffee this morning and a visit to the results viewing station. Yep!


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## thousandcasts

> the more that people do it, it might be less effective since there's an over abundance of food.


First off, my position on this issue has been crystal clear, but you're starting to touch on where I do have a problem with it. 

It SHOULD NOT be the "be all, end all" of a person's fishing trip. Even I think some people get carried away with the whole thing. 

Hypothetically, let's say a I have quart sized jar of eggs. *If* maybe, possibly, who knows, I were to use those as an "incentive," I can tell you right now, that quart sized jar would last me *TWO FULL DAYS* on the river. 

For some guys a quart would only last an hour and that is flat out *RIDICULOUS*. 

There's some times it makes a difference, some times it doesn't. It's not like you need to fling a half gallon into a run. Most of the time, if you're gonna do it, you can take a small handful about the size of a golf ball and that'll be more than enough to get your desired result. But it should be the "in case of emergency, break glass" kind of thing--NOT the most important part of your fishing trip. *A little here, a little there is far more effective than dumping an orange cloud into a run.* A quart should last two, three *days* on the river--not an hour.

Yep...I'm on the pro-chumming side, but like I said--some of the guys out there take it waaaaaaaaaaay over the limits of acceptability, ya know? And really--that's why we're at where we're at with the whole thing. A good friend of mine refers to it as "crack" -- gotta have more, more, more. In fact, it should be nothing more than a glass of fine wine--sit back, have a nice glass once in awhile and SIP it--don't gulp and pour more.


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## Speyday

Hutch,

Yes, your observations agree with mine. Ive watched and fished with buddies who chum; and its typical for me to see a good handful; occasionally two; one downstream and one upstream about every 20 minutes. ONce they start catching fish, thought, it stops until things die again. One dude I watched had a plastic cooking spoon, and used it to 'flick' the load without dirtying his gloves. He carried the roe in one of those one gatorade bottles with the wide mouth.


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## thousandcasts

Speyday said:


> Hutch,
> 
> Yes, your observations agree with mine. Ive watched and fished with buddies who chum; and its typical for me to see a good handful; occasionally two; one downstream and one upstream about every 20 minutes. ONce they start catching fish, thought, it stops until things die again. One dude I watched had a plastic cooking spoon, and used it to 'flick' the load without dirtying his gloves. He carried the roe in one of those one gatorade bottles with the wide mouth.


Well...if it's the small gatorade bottle that's like, 1.25 *PINT* sized, that should be more than enough to spend 10 hours on the water, fishing multiple holes and runs and still come back with some left in the bottle. 

Like I said...SIP, boys-- don't gulp! :lol:


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## thousandcasts

REG said:


> *However, study results did show that the trout fed with a corn diet did not digest the corn particularly well. The growth observed by the corn-fed trout during the study period was only about half of that observed from the trout that were fed the standard trout pellet diet.*
> 
> Maybe try something else,


Ya know, I was kidding about the whole wax worm thing, but here's something I'm dead serious about: 

The day I throw corn in the water for anything other than catching carp with my kids is the day that I'm done fishing, period. 

You can take this post, file it away in the archives and I'll never have to worry about it coming back to haunt me. Flat out, if I have to throw corn in the water to catch steelhead, then I'm done. You'd have a better chance of seeing me tie up blue spawn bags--and anyone who knows me, knows I refuse to take perfectly good eggs and tie them up in blue netting. If I need to have something blue in the water that bad, I'll put a plug or wobble glow on. 

Corn = carp. Perfectly acceptable. I like carp--I like taking my kids carp fishing with corn. That's where it stays and ends. 

If someone else wants to chum up steelhead with freakin' corn, then God bless 'em and do your "thang," so to speak. The day I do that is the day I quit fishing and climb into the wooden box. :lol:


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## Jones

Wish I would've seen this thread earlier.

I find it appalling that some people think the guide in question was "standing up to the law and making a statement". This is total BS. This guide has continued chumming when asked to stop MANY times. Why? Because he made a "reputation" for big numbers of steelhead (propped up by chumming), and did not want to put in the time or the effort to do things the right way. Chumming is not something that was in his "back pocket". This was something he did at every hole he fished, every day of the year (when not lining fish off gravel with the rest of the gang in the spring and fall)! Some of you claim he was a legitimate fly fishing guide. Well yeah, if you call call throwing a couple handfuls of eggs into a run and then fishing chuck and duck with egg flies fly fishing, he's a fly fishing guide alright. What a joke!

You all remember Bernie Madoff and his croney's, right? His investors got used to seeing the double digit returns on their investments, and didn't care what "methods" he was using in his investment strategies. When market crashes occurred(tech stock, 9/11, etc) and everyone else was losing money hand over fist, "trusty" Bernie was still making profits! Funny thing was that he was actually screwing his investors over tenfold with their own money!

That is exactly whats going on here. Tough weather conditions, not a lot of fish, most people would go home empty. But not him! He and his clients were pulling steady numbers no matter what day it was. Must be the guide! He must know all of the good spots! Funny thing is, if those same fisherman would go back to those same spots the next day, they would in all likelihood blank if they had to fish behind someone with chum. It's just the way it is.

This was not a case of one guide calling the DNR making complaints about the guide in question. This was many recreational fisherman, over several years, that frankly had enough. 

A law is a law. When you break it, you face the consequences. Its a slippery slope down the never ending path of relativity when you start justifying breaking laws that don't suit your own personal interests. If this is such a horrible law that has no merit(whether it be scientific or social) then get it overturned through the judicial and legislative processes. This is America. 

When will we realize that guides are not stewards of our resources? They are simply looking out for their own bottom line.


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## Trout King

I just went and bought 17 cans of corn...I'm going fishing tomorrow! 



> Tell you what. I am now seriously considering hitting water where most guides cannot operate to help reduce the chances of this. Becasue everyone is lurking and reading about this matter, and I bet theres gonna be a LOT more egg-plopping going on based on this precedent and lack of consequences. It has sent a message.


Oh well, at least one judge decided it wasn't an issue. The DNR should see it the same! Its all about agenda pushing by the fly flinging cry babies (not all fly fisherman) that don't like getting outfished with bait. Day in day out a steelhead will respond to eggs over most baits IMO.

In PA you can buy gallon bags full of eggs for bags or chumming. When I get down there this spring I won't buy eggs, just collect them from the fish that are incapable of reproducing on the shale....hmmm....what to do with all those eggs? :yikes:


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## Jones

Trout King said:


> Oh well, at least one judge decided it wasn't an issue. The DNR should see it the same! Its all about agenda pushing by the fly flinging cry babies (not all fly fisherman) that don't like getting outfished with bait. Day in day out a steelhead will respond to eggs over most baits IMO.


This is not about fly fishing vs bait fishing! I could chum and fish egg flies, and the outcome would still be the same.


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## thousandcasts

> This was many recreational fisherman, over several years, that frankly had enough.


Define "many" and would it be safe to presume that we won't be seeing their RSVP's for the annual Gut Chuckers Ball? 

By using the same word, "many" of the recreational anglers I see would have to put their spoons down in order to make that call to RAP.


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## Trout King

> That is exactly whats going on here. Tough weather conditions, not a lot of fish, most people would go home empty. But not him! He and his clients were pulling steady numbers no matter what day it was. Must be the guide! He must know all of the good spots! Funny thing is, if those same fisherman would go back to those same spots the next day, they would in all likelihood blank if they had to fish behind someone with chum. It's just the way it is.


I didn't know if you throw eggs in the fish automatically swim to your feet! 

I'm pretty sure you have to know where the fish live even to get them react effectively to chum. ...idk though. To me, each his own! 

Still trying to get my first steelie...anyone got any chum?


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