# pelets vrs powder



## Peck (Feb 1, 2004)

I had my 2nd hang fire using triple 7 pellets. They were last years pellets. Are pellets more likely to have this problem vrs powder? Any recommendations on powder?
Thanks


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## Crowhunter (Aug 27, 2005)

Peck said:


> I had my 2nd hang fire using triple 7 pellets. They were last years pellets. Are pellets more likely to have this problem vrs powder? Any recommendations on powder?
> Thanks


Blackhorn 209 .Bud


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## passport (Jul 26, 2009)

Fer starters, pellets limit one to a set group of loads, simply cant alter pellets like loose powder.


Im a bit off topic I know, hand fires are usually a dirty gun or blocked breach plug issue. That said pellets dont help, IMO loose ignites easier.

Lose the pellets, go Blackhorn 209 and dont look back.........


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## 3fingervic (Jan 28, 2009)

A lot of guys like BH 209.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

BH 209 is great powder, no doubt but, prior to purchasing make sure that your rife's breech plug is of the proper design for shooting it. It shows the different use/do not use plugs on the bottle.

Now for the pellets..... as stated above a dirty breech plug can cause the problem. However, the way that it is stored could also have caused the problem. As with ALL powders, it must be stored in a *dry* environment. Every time you open up that box of pellets, if there's moisture around it can absorb it. Loose powder can absorb moisture just as fast and it'll cause you hang fires also.

Here's a hint for range use and loose powder:

Find yourself some 35mm film containers. They seal and will not let moisture in. You can pre-measure your loads prior to heading to the range in as many as you intend to shoot. *Mark them if you're trying different charge weights* or, just put them in different and marked zip loc bags.

I don't remember you mentioning if your load had been in the rifle for a long time or, how clean the rifle was. Taking it from the cold into a warm environment will cause your rifle to sweat and moisture will get into your pellets/powder and can cause a hang fire also. Hunting in the rain or when the moisture is high can cause problems. Its best to fire the rifle and reload in hunting situations. Better safe than sorry for me
Most generally, when you have a hang fire, it is usually caused by moisture of some type. You're getting flame through but its getting through to moist powder and complete ignition is taking longer. A plugged breech plug will generally just not fire.

_"keep your powder dry"_


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

Yes pellets have problems, go to B209.


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## Peck (Feb 1, 2004)

BH 209, is that powder simular To Pyrodex? I shoot a 50 cal T/C. Would 150 grains of BH 209 be an equivelent charge?
Thanks


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Peck said:


> BH 209, is that powder simular To Pyrodex? I shoot a 50 cal T/C. Would 150 grains of BH 209 be an equivelent charge?
> Thanks


Its totally a different kind of powder, in size, shape, burning rates and barrel pressure. *120grs (by volume) of BH 209 is the MAXIMUM recommended*.

I started using it this past summer and immediately bought three (3) additional bottles of it. All my pyrodex, loose and pellet, along with all the loose 777 that I had, has been give away.

Here's the web site so you can read up on it: http://www.blackhorn209.com/

READ ALL THE WARNINGS !


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## SgtSabre (May 15, 2004)

Anybody know where Blackhorn 209 can be purchased in the Lansing area?


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## steelyguy (Jan 16, 2009)

Triple seven loose is far better than pellets and I have never had ignition problems with it I use it out of all my side hammer rifles and pistols


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

SgtSabre said:


> Anybody know where Blackhorn 209 can be purchased in the Lansing area?


Classic Arms carried it. Plan on spending about $10 more per bottle than you'll find it any place else though. Last summer they wanted $48. You're close enough, run down to Cabelas and pick it up and while you're there, find something else that you just have to have


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## Billw (Dec 27, 2004)

SgtSabre said:


> Anybody know where Blackhorn 209 can be purchased in the Lansing area?


Not Lansing, but if you are willing to drive up 27 a bit, I know that Gilroy's in St. Johns has it.


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## TJHUNTER (Oct 18, 2007)

48.00 a bottle seems kind of expensive, i would like to try it but 50.00 a bottle seems pretty pricey to me.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

TJHUNTER said:


> 48.00 a bottle seems kind of expensive, i would like to try it but 50.00 a bottle seems pretty pricey to me.


That was last summer and only at that retailer. I bought my last 3 bottles up at the bridge and they were only $36. This stuff will come down when more retailers carry it. In this area, most of the shops haven't even heard of it and some of them state, that if it isn't pellets, people won't buy it. Good grief

BH 209 comes in 10oz containers. 120 grs. by volume is the maximum load. If my calculations are correct  you should be able to get approximately 70 loads per container. (avg. charge 100gr by volume).

There are compatable and non-compatable breech plug types, so that has to be taken into consideration. You also have to use a regular or magnum 209 primer. Not 209 muzzleloader primers.

I've found that I'm getting extremely consistent grouping. It completely eliminates the need to swab between shots, which is outstanding. The last time on the bench, I fired 21 rounds without swabbing and the last three shots held a 3/4" group @ 100yds (100gr volume, 250gr Barnes TMZ). The 21st round loaded just as easy as the 1st round (impressive with my Encore). Easy clean up. Its why I gave everything else away

www.blackhorn2009.com


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## Peck (Feb 1, 2004)

That is great info. You guys have been a great help. I am going to give the BH209 a try.


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

ENCORE said:


> BH 209 comes in 10oz containers. 120 grs. by volume is the maximum load. If my calculations are correct  you should be able to get approximately 70 loads per container. (avg. charge 100gr by volume).
> 
> There are compatable and non-compatable breech plug types, so that has to be taken into consideration. You also have to use a regular or magnum 209 primer. Not 209 muzzleloader primers.
> 
> ...


 
70X100 gr would be 7000gr which would be a full pound or 16 ounces

is no one using Pyrodex and why please?


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Jim..47 said:


> 70X100 gr would be 7000gr which would be a full pound or 16 ounces
> QUOTE]
> 
> Your math is correct. *HOWEVER*..... because we are using a volume of measurement, the volume of measurement for 100grs of BH209 is approximately 60.4 grs. BY WEIGHT.
> ...


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Jim..47 said:


> 70X100 gr would be 7000gr which would be a full pound or 16 ounces
> 
> is no one using Pyrodex and why please?


This will pretty much explain why some of us have switched http://www.blackhorn209.com/ I've found it to live up to what it states.


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

Thanks for the explaination Encore, appreciated much.


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## agross (Jan 18, 2009)

well you guys have sold me ,, i will certainly give it a try next season after having several hangfires this year with a couple of different kinds of pellets, i keep my breach plug and gun dry and clean, check my plug before and after shots and kept having hangfires so it's time to make a change


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## 12970 (Apr 19, 2005)

Seems that everyone looks at the powder as the whole issue when primers some are better / hotter than others. If you check with BH209 they point this out some 209 primers are good but others are better like the Federal and CCI over others. They say the Federal is hotter and also the breech plug design comes into play because the BH209 came out after some ML were designedusing the powder that was available at the time and also the channel for the ignition to get to the powder as some have suggested could be dirty or not good enough to ignite the powder. If you are looking buy some Federal 209A Primers and that will help you use up your 777 powder. The reason why so many like the BH209 is because it does not foul up the ML like others do, they say you can shoot the BH209 a lot more before having to swabbing the barrel not like Pyrodex or T7. Seems many also think you have to use the max powder load to get a ML to get the best results when most that test their ML find that a charge from 70 to 100 is better and working up a load & Set up with the right sabot primer and measure of podwer can make a ML very accurate if given the time to test it. But many just put the powder in and load the sabot and primer and start shooting. Some ML like different sabots as well as the weight of them while others like a different primer and a combination and getting all the right stuff is sometimes a long project but for some it comes together and then they are good to go... 

I shoot a Knight Disc Elite and like it a lot I am using up my T7 but have some of the BH209 I am going to try in 2010 but many have advised to get the hottest primer and hang fires will not be an issue. They have done some testing and seems the Federal 209A is the one many like with the BH209... Might be worth a try to see if this helps with your hangfire issues using a hotter primer to get you by... Also Bass Pro has the BH209 or they did have it...

Newaygo1


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

I have shot hundreds of shots with ML's, from my first gun my Lyman deerstalker to my Omega. While shooting I've always swabbed my gun's every shot and at the end of the day field cleaned the barrel, nipple or breech plug. Used all kind of powders from pellets and loose, I currently shoot 777 pellets and primers, never had a problem either while hunting or target shooting. IMO the glun needs to be swabbed every shot and brushed every 3 shots if using sabots and breech cleaned at the end of target shooting and before the hunt dry swabbed and 3 primers fired before loading, gun stored in the cold. Its not the powder or the gun its moisture or plugged breech hole. I have tried all the "hotter primers", then was told by a very good shooter that for accuracy they are not answer. Not cutting down the BH209, I'm sure its good stuff but for the ease of use pellets are hands down the easiest for hunting and people that don't have the time to practice with different loads well before season, looking at my groups at 100yds with 150grains of 777 and a 250 grain shockwave I don't think it can be much better.


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

Yes Pyrodex, 777 & others will shoot & kill deer just fine. I do know if you shoot across a chronograph with Pryodex & B209 you will see a big difference, same with Shocky's Gold. The main thing for me is to be able to set your gun down after shooting it & letting it go for a day or 2 on the hunt. That does not go over well with Pyrodex & a few others.

I've never understood people saying 'pellets are easier'. I can pour a pre-measured powder charge in as quick as a few pellets any day. Loose powder in any form has always been easier to ignite.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

sourdough44 said:


> Yes Pyrodex, 777 & others will shoot & kill deer just fine. I do know if you shoot across a chronograph with Pryodex & B209 you will see a big difference, same with Shocky's Gold. The main thing for me is to be able to set your gun down after shooting it & letting it go for a day or 2 on the hunt. That does not go over well with Pyrodex & a few others.
> 
> *I've never understood people saying 'pellets are easier'. I can pour a pre-measured powder charge in as quick as a few pellets any day. Loose powder in any form has always been easier to ignite*.


Well put!

They did a remarkable job marketing pellets. They do work but.... they're inconsistant. There have been numerous guys that have shot them across a chronograph, with every rifle imaginable and get an extreme variance in fps. This doesn't mean that they won't perform, it just shows one more possibility for larger groups. At least with loose powder, you don't have to worry about which end is which, putting it down the barrel as with pyrodex.


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## Corey K (Dec 11, 2009)

I agree that loose powder is not that difficult, time consuming, and probably more consistant. But I wouldn't throw away your pellets because of 1/2in difference in groups at a 100yds either. Is that slight difference if fps that drastic for most shots taken while hunting? Nothing is broke for me so I am not changing, LOL.


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## 12970 (Apr 19, 2005)

I like how simple you suggest measuring powder is... With the pellets you don't need to spend $ on a powder measure, or buy some kind of powder holder to premeasure powder out. So to suggest you can do it as fast is hard to understand when you drop 2 or 3 pellets and you are done... Sounds good but really...

I guess for some loose powder is what they prefer like most things it all has to do with what you choose / prefer. Also measuring powder takes a bit more understand of just how much you can really use volime vs ??? for those that have not been educated in this it is just an added thing to learn and these days many just don't have the time to be exposed to all the fine points of black powder and shooting. I have learned just like archery it is what works for a single person not to make comments because you like one thing over another just divides us as shooters. 

Just some obeservations. I learn most of my muzzleloading info off a forum that is all things muzzleloading and these guys test and set up their ML's with precision knowing exact what powder works better, what Primer works with what rifle and what sabots are better than others since the designs have changed over the years due to what was available then to now not all things are equal and to generalize as if all ML are the same is misleading. They work similar but some have better designs as others as technology gets better so does things related to black powder and muzzleloading. 

As long as you enjoy your black powder shooting that is what counts some take info as the only way to go when there is a lot more info out there and should be open to discussion. 

Not an expert but willing to learn and use what works best for my set up...

Newaygo1


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

I think what sourdough44 and I both agreed on was that, with a pre-measured charge, it can be loaded just as fast as someone loading pellets. If you have the proper setup with your speedloaders, you can load that second shot just as fast.

You don't need to spend a lot of money on a volume measure. My last one, made by T/C cost $12. Pre-measured loads can be kept in used 35mm film cartrige containers. They keep them dry and sealed and you can pick them up for free at most places that develop film. It doesn't take long to load up 20, 30 or more, 35mm containers for range work. Changing a charge volume to perfect a load is much easier and you're not limited to 30gr or 50gr pellets. And... the time you spend loading up 20 or 30 rounds and putting them in the film containers, will be much less than swabbing between each shot if you're using BH 209.

_'If it isn't broke, don't fix it'_, is ok. Nothing wrong with that what so ever. However, there are many on this site that shoot a muzz all year long. Its amaizing just how well these guys can shoot and the accuracy and consistency they can obtain. What has to be considered, is that they never stop trying to improve. Its also understandable, that if someone using pellets is satisfied with their shooting, they should continue to do what works for them.

What's so great about M-S is that no matter how long you been at it, someone will always be able to provide some advice or recommendations that you haven't tried. I think that's what the original poster was looking for


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## 12970 (Apr 19, 2005)

Lefting that you have set up speed loaders it sounded like you could just pour in the powder with a powder measure and be good like putting in 2 pellets and be ready to shoot. For a new ML shooter it seems to be a little simpler to use a powder measure. I have been using an ML for sometime but this year I had to go back to my 30.06 because of lack of $$ being unemployed for 4 month and then taking a job making 5 less an hour and now no paid vacation or time off to speak of even if you ask. So money is extremely tight for me as well as many others here in Michigan so leaving out the fact you measure out powder in advance is just a detail that sound like you could pour it into a powder measure and then into you ML and be just as quick as two pellets so for those just getting started if sounded a lot easier to use loose powder...

Thanks for taking the time to provide more detailed info about using loose powder ...

Newaygo1


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## Peck (Feb 1, 2004)

Has anything changed with powder measuring devices? Years ago when I used black powder the device used was brass with a scale engraved on the side. You slid a plunger type stop down to the appropriate mark and filled it with powder. Would anyone recommend a more precise device to get a consistent measure with the BH 209? I will be in the market and would like to get a good one.
Thanks


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Peck said:


> Has anything changed with powder measuring devices? Years ago when I used black powder the device used was brass with a scale engraved on the side. You slid a plunger type stop down to the appropriate mark and filled it with powder. Would anyone recommend a more precise device to get a consistent measure with the BH 209? I will be in the market and would like to get a good one.
> Thanks


PRECISE..... is almost non-existent. I've had a number of them over the years and not one of them has been PRECISE. Even the one that I have now, isn't precise except for the 100gr. mark. Everything changes after that. Even those that read on the side will not be PRECISE.

There are things that can change the weight of the VOLUME charge such as: packing/not packing. If you pound it on the table when filled, you'll be able to put more powder in it, which changes volume. When ever I compare weight to VOLUME, I never pack. I fill from a secondary container until level. If you read one of my posts above, its been a very accurate way to measure for me. HIGH to LOW with only 5.3grs (+/- 2.65gr) difference in 20 loads.
My current measuring device is from T/C. One click up is right at 100grs. The next click up, which should be 110 grs, is actually 115grs. Next click up after that, which should be 120grs., gives me a reading of 130grs. I had one, which wasn't made by T/C, that when measuring a load at 150grs., it actually ended up being +30grs and therefore equalled a 180gr. charge! 

When I start shooting again this spring, my intent is to purchase one that reads on the side. That way I can adjust and mark the scale to the appropriate volume. I will admit that I'm probably a little picky with loads. Guess it goes back to the days of precision centerfire loading and long range shooting. Its easier to adjust for small problems.

No matter which one you have, it should be consistent at each click or mark. Not necessarly accurate. If you find one that ends up being PRECISE, for goodness sakes, let me know. I'll purchase one!


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## Peck (Feb 1, 2004)

I have a digital scale that I use to weigh my Arrow heads. It measures in grains or grams. Do you think it is accurate enough to weigh each charge and have them be exact? Wouldn't that ensure consistent loads? 
Thanks


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Peck said:


> I have a digital scale that I use to weigh my Arrow heads. It measures in grains or grams. Do you think it is accurate enough to weigh each charge and have them be exact? Wouldn't that ensure consistent loads?
> Thanks


Yes, *BUT WAIT!*

First, and this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT...... You *DO NOT weigh anything other than BLACKPOWDER.* Unless you have actual blackpowder, 2F, *DO NOT load any subsitiute by weight!!!*

*MANY PEOPLE GET TOTALLY CONFUSED WHEN YOU SAY 100GRS OF PYRODEX, 100GRS OF T7 OR, ANY OTHER BLACKPOWDER SUBSTITUTE. ALL OF THESE SUBSTITUTES ARE BASED ON VOLUME AND NOT BY WEIGHT.*

The only SAFE way to check the WEIGHTS of a volume measurer, is to actually use 2F blackpowder. Your scale should measure accurately but, you first must have a volume measure, fill it with 2F and then weigh it multipal times with different measure fulls. This will give you an average of just how much 2F that the volume measure is holding. Once you determine that the measuring device that you have holds (for example) say, 100grs of blackpowder, only then, after being TOTALLY ACCURATE AND PRECISE can you then fill the measure with a substitute and check its weight by volume. Again, you have to check multipal loads to VERIFY your actual weight. All of the weights must be written down and charted for compairison.

Making sure that each load is exactly the same as any other, will provide you with the most consistent shooting. If you're shooting a quality barrel and a quality bullet, you can always adjust your charge to make it better. EXAMPLE: When you load for competation centerfire, each round is loaded with the EXACT (to the 1/10th gr.) amount of powder and the bullet depth seated EXACTLY the same in each round. You could shoot more consistant if you do the same thing with a muzzleloader. But, because you can over charge a muzzleloader (same with a centerfire), confuse volume with weight AND, unless you're very knowledgable in using scales, volume measures and weights, AND USE BLACKPOWDER 2F TO VERIFY, its best that you just shoot pellets or loose powder with just volume measure loads and do not exceed the manufacturers recommendations.

I NEED TO STRESS, THESE METHODS ARE NOT RECOMMENDED OR SUGGESTED. ANY MEASURING OF WEIGHTS, WITH ANY BLACKPOWDER SUBSTITUTE, SHOULD ONLY BE DONE BY SOMEONE EXTREMELY KNOWLEDGABLE. I CAN NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYONE THAT DOES NOT FOLLOW THEIR RIFLE MANUFACTURER'S WARNINGS OR THOSE OF ANY PROPELLENT MANUFACTURER!


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## Tibbs (Dec 27, 2005)

Hello,
Just read some product reviews on blackhorn 209.. Mostly were as good as what you guys say. But a few peolple have had issues in wet weather. Anyone experience any mis fires in wet conditions?


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## Peck (Feb 1, 2004)

Very good info Encore. 
If I understand you correctly, the powder measures on the market are set up for Black powder which does not weigh the same as other powders. I will set my volume measuring device to 100 grains and fill it with BH 209 and then then weigh it. I will do this several times to get an average. I can make my own calibrations from there. It seems like the powder companies would have their own volume devices for their own powder.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Tibbs said:


> Hello,
> Just read some product reviews on blackhorn 209.. Mostly were as good as what you guys say. But a few peolple have had issues in wet weather. Anyone experience any mis fires in wet conditions?


I loaded mine up 3 days prior to the season. Humidity was high with very wet snow on a couple days, then turned cold. It stayed loaded until I took a buck on the 18th. However, I never shoot a clean barrel hunting. I always swab out the rifle to remove any rust preventative, then fire a couple primers, then fire at least one round so that I'm hunting with a fouled barrel.

As with any muzzleloader propellent, moisture is the enemy. Its hard to tell just exactly what some people are doing and how they get moisture in their powder. Some of it may have to do with rifles that still have some type of oil or grease in/around the breech plug. Possibly a very dirty rifle. Others may not necessarly have the proper breech plug for BH209 (this is a must). They may be taking it from the cold into a warm house. And yet others may be hunting in extreme wet weather and maybe should have taped the end of the barrel or, even discharged the rifle and reloaded. Sometimes, you just never know. That's muzz shooting.

All in all, I've been impressed so far with BH209 on my range and at game. My range work is what sold me right off and next spring and summer will give me much more information. Although I have all the time in the world and my own range, not having to swab between shots is great. Especially when it doesn't affect accuracy and groups. Still have to wait to keep the barrel cooled though


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## TJHUNTER (Oct 18, 2007)

what is the proper breech plug? 209 primer


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

TJHUNTER said:


> what is the proper breech plug? 209 primer


Here's what Modern Muzzleloader has on its site for rifles with an appropriate rifle/breech plug: http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9234

Modern Muzzleloader _seal of approval_ muzzleloaders for use with Blackhorn 209: 

Savage 10ML-II 
T/C Encore 
T/C Omega .50 
T/C Triumph .50 
Traditions Pursuit II XLT 
ANY Knight Extreme action NOT using the FPJ-Domed breechplug 

Other muzzleloaders that will function 100% with Blackhorn 209: 
CVA Acura 
CVA Wolf 
Knight Wolverine 209 
NEF Huntsman/Sidekick with the Hubbard's 209 Breech Plug 
Remington Genesis 

DO NOT use regular muzzleloader primers. They have to be either *STANDARD OR MAGNUM 209 PRIMERS*.


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## TJHUNTER (Oct 18, 2007)

will my cva optima work? i couldnt get the site to work, thanks for your help!


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## GuppyII (Sep 14, 2008)

If you have the hex style head on the Optima you are fine. I have an Optima Pro that loves the stuff.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Come spring, I'm going to try to put a pretty good dent in one of the four bottles that I have, on the first day of shooting. Just ordered two 24 packs of Barnes TMZ bullets from Cabelas. One, 250gr and one 290gr. I can move the bench up to the patio and get 150yds. I could get 200 but the wife won't let me bring the dozer back in.

Sometime between then and now, I've got to try to explain to the wife, why I need a new scope on that Encore :lol:


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