# Rut interrupted



## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

This is related to the 5 day gun season post. Did anyone see the article "rut interrupted" in the October 2003 Petersen's Bowhunting by editor Jay Strangis? Great article. It tells of what states do their gun season right and which don't. Which states "fail to jump into the 21st century". On how the gun season should come AFTER the rut, so it protects big bucks through the breeding season and that bucks get some of their senses back from being dumb in the rut. Pretty much says gun season should start around Thanksgiving. It also suggests shotgun only. The states that have it right with a later gun season are Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Ohio and Wisconsin. (Any of those names sound familiar for good buck hunting?) He also mentions the states that have it seriously wrong. Guess which state is about the worst? You guessed it. Here's a quote..."The grand state of Michigan...God help the bucks of Michigan. To date, there is no hope for Michigan trophy hunting to improve substantially until changes are made." If you didn't read it, please do. It's on page 63 of this months Petersen's Bowhunting.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

If that were to happen here you would start to hear the cry that the state is discriminating against the elderly who can't take the colder temperatures would be heard.


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## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

I made a post quite a while back stateing the same thing (I think I mentioned the first Sat. after Thanksgiving and a 9 day season) and I caught a bit of flack from several members on this site, so this situation seems to be a mindset everywhere in Michigan. To bad. With so much opposition and the politics with the DNR, it's unlikely to change anytime in the forseeable future.  

Also, changing the date wouldn't just make it better for trophy bucks, but there would also be more bucks and healthier bucks with more meat on thier bones! The people that complain about change would actually end up happier!!

P.S. Steve, that is one of the same comments I heard back then.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

DEERSLYER,
Why would the bucks be healthier ? I assume that you mean that they would be heavier because more would live a year or two longer.

Bob,
Many hunters don't give a rat's rump about trophy hunting. They just want to see a few deer most every sit and get a look at a buck once in a while.

L & O


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

The problem is, we've largely managed our deer resource based upon the perception of what "most hunters" want.

Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Ohio, Wisconsin. What a coincidence!

I could just hear the objections to opening our firearms season later, like the aforementioned states:

- It would discourage youth participation, it's too cold!

- If the rut has wound down, it's impossible to kill deer!

- The deer have migrated to their winter yards by Thanksgiving!

- My buck attractant scent-in-a-bottle is ineffective after the rut!

- It will reduce hunter opportunity, since we have less daylight than we do on November 15!

- Our hunting methods will be limited to drives only - that's the only way to kill deer in December!

- It will increase hunting accidents, since cold hunters are more likely to have to belt down some booze to stay warm!

- That's pushing the gun season into prime Christmas shopping time; it would be a disaster for the retail sector!

- And, of couse: It will unfairly benefit private landowners, and public land hunters will be screwed again!


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I think L&O is right, many don't give a hoot about "trophy hunting", but an honest percentage of opportunity at a little 2.5 year old 8-point every year wouldn't dampen their spirits any.

Just a side thought: Lots of guys say they are "just out for meat", "can't eat the antlers", "just want to have fun", "don't care what they shoot", but what buck do guys talk about around the dinner table at camp every year? The mighty spike they heard so and so got in the area? the awesome 4-point that was in the paper yesterday? The great 3 point that was rumered to have been shot in the next county? Heck no!! They talk about "Big Moe", the alusive 10 point that someone thought they heard on opening morning raking his massive rack against a balsam, or the "Big Eight", that's been secretly living right under their noses for the past 5 years and seems to "disappear" during the season, or the giant 12 point that great grandady shot in 1934. Sure a 12 year old kid should be, and certainly usually is, very excited with a little spike for their first deer, but when they are dreaming in their bed at night about a buck...is it a spike that excites them the most, or the thought of dad's big 8 point on the wall that really revs their engine?

Yeah, many might not say they care about the big boys, but what they say, and what they dream about might be a little of a contrast.

As far as MI being one of the poorest managed quality white-tailed states....did we really need some joe-shmoe from a magazine to tell us this?!?


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

Changing gun season??? I am going to dial up some of my friends and tell them about this crazy change you are proposing. Hey, how do I dial this phone? Buttons with numbers??? It can't be.


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

Guys, what's on???????? Ughhhh.....I'm never going to be able to adjust to this new phone. That's it, I'm just going to quit using the phone. Solved.


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

Sounds good to me!! I hunt both seasons, but the thought of being able to bow-hunt durring the peak of the rut is exciting. Wouldn't bother me if It was a little colder durring the gun season, as I don't sit still much after opening morning anyway. I like the idea of a later season better than a shorter one. I don't think I've ever shot a deer later than five days into the gun season anyway, but boehr made a good point in that other thread about having everybody and their brother in the woods crammed into a five day period IMO.

Al


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

It's a very good article, and it is the absolute truth. I like the nine day season idea but I could live with five just as well. The argument that the season would be crammed doesn't seem like a valid argument to me though. Yes it would be crammed thats for sure...but the opening few days are already crammed. I doubt most folks wold really notice a big differance in many areas. Some of the quietest opening days I can remember were on weekends, which surely isn't expected. The weather can sometimes be as much of a factor as the day the season happens to open on. 

I agree with Jeff, big racks drive deer hunting regardless what folks say. Would most of us hunt if we knew there wasn't a buck anywhere larger than a 6 point...sure we would but if that were the case, than that 6 would be the trophy and you can bet thats the deer we would dream about. As it stands right now in this state, that 6 might be the dream, but we now the possibility exists for something else.....the big one.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

I still like the Dec. 1 opener idea and keep it 15 days, if a 6 or 9 day season is intolerable, most of the hunters are done on day 2 anyways. I would also like to see Michigan issue 3 tags, similar to Ohio, 2 antlerless and 1 antlered.


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## rabbit whacker (Jan 22, 2003)

What about how the poor deer feel. If we change the seasons date they are going to be royally confused  Actually, maybe we could do a study to answer one of my questions; Do deer know when it is November 15? It seems like they do where I hunt, because they manage to all disappear for about 15 days  

There would be a lot of flack if they change the opening day of gun season. It has become a holiday here in Michigan, try to change Chistmas to January 3 and I think you will have better luck. Can you imagine when the guy that 'always' shoots his buck by 8 am on November 15 goes through an opening day of November 20whatever and doesn't see a buck. Ohh is he/she going to be PO'd. Yeah that sounds like fun, lets change it


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## rabbit whacker (Jan 22, 2003)

One other thought after rereading, how is the October 2003 issue of a magazine out already? Isn't it August?  I think the April 13, 2004 issue of Newsweek is coming out tomorrow


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## hypox (Jan 23, 2000)

I have an idea...let's just stop shooting deer all together. Think of ALL the trophy bucks there would be. Wow, that would be great.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Hypox, it's not only about trophy bucks. A better overall mix of mature deer indicates a better balanced, healthier deer herd. Large antlered bucks are just a product of a better balanced deer herd. 
Instead of a smart alleck remark, give us your opinion on what you what would like to see changed, or not changed. Or why you disagree with some of the above posts. Tossing around ideas is a good thing, and after all, thats all they are, ideas.


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## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

L&O,

The bucks would be healthier because:

#1) The does would get bread on time because there would allway's be a buck around to breed them, so there would not be near as many late born deer (bucks and does) that end up being "runts". Also, you would not have as many underweight fawns that are so small they cannot nurse and therefore die (remember, does will only nurse while standing) so the herd will be even more productive (the insurance companies should like that  ).

#2) The rutting activity of yearling bucks will be GREATLY suppressed because of the older bucks (mainly 2 1/2 year olds) that would be present. The older bucks make the rut much more structured and the yearling's are not running all over haphazardly. Because of this the yearling bucks would save a tremendous amount of valuable energy and fat reseves, from their general lack of participation in rut activity (plus they would feed even more). It has been PROVEN (in studies) that this situation results in FAR healthier bucks.


There are actually several other reasons I didn't mention because I hate all this typing, but I hope that while I tried to keep it short, I was still helpfull.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

How would the quality of the meat compare?


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

DEERSLAYER,
1. Not enough bucks around to breed the does on time...baloney. There have always been and will always be late born fawns. A few of the does won't "catch" on the first rut & many of the doe fawns will not be bred until early Dec. because that is the first time that they come into heat. 
2. Oh my gosh, you think that the 1 1/2 old bucks are going to sit on the sidelines and just watch because there are a larger number of older bucks around ? The hormones are still going to be pumping through their veins and they will still be trying to get lucky.
Please cite your studies, I would be interested in reading them.

L & O


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

It's call the "Process of Natural Selection", a naturally occuring phenomenon where populations are maintained with an adequate buck age structure in which only the most mature, dominant, and healthy participate in the breading process. Anybody who's hunted in quality states can tell you that you simply don't see yearling, and in many high quality areas, 2.5 year olds, participating in breeding. Their hormones and breeding instincts are actually supressed by the domination older bucks. Someone I know that regularily shoots bucks in the 160 to 180 class in Iowa every year has said that the only time you will see a yearling or 2.5 year old buck during the rut is when he's running by your stand with an antler stuck in his rear end from an older buck that's pushing him into the next county! My 3.5 year old in WI last year had virtually no fat on him, due to heavy participation in the rut, but my friends 2.5 year old was extremely fat, due to the fact he was probably hiding out most of the rut and conserving energy. Same in PA. My friends 3.5 year old last year had basically no fat on as well, due to the fact he was doing most of the breeding in the area. Two years ago in PA, a yearling shot in camp had one antler broken in 1/2, and 3 other tines broken, as well as a puncture wound in it's rear end. Basically, it tried to participate in breeding, but wasn't very successful at it! You won't see this in MI though, for the most part, because of high doe numbers in areas, and poor age structures.

As far as fawn timing and breeding windows, John Ozoga has stated that up here in the U.P., 85% of the does breed in the first cycle, with an average date of Nov 11th. Simply, up here, if the fawns are born 1 month early, they die, and 1 month late they are too small entering winter, and they die. But up here, our populations are lower, and buck to doe ratios are actually not that bad (most areas less than 1:3), so that's what happens. The problem up here though is that most yearlings are participating in the breeding process, so the process of natural selection can not take place.

As far as studies, read John Ozoga's "Whitetail Intrigue", or one of his seasons of the whitetail series. If you don't care to do some reading, you will just have to take our word for it, unless you can find a study by a reputable whitetail researcher to prove otherwise. Better yet, don't bother doing any reading, but instead, go on a research mission in portions of WI,OH,IN,IA,KS,IL,PA, KY, or any of the other states that offer quality hunting....and see for yourself.


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## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

L&O,

I'm not going on what I think or feel. I'm only telling you what has been PROVEN by SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH. I thought that's what were supposed to manage our herd on. (didn't we vote on this a few years ago?)

trout,

I didn't know they had antler restrictions in area 452. When did they start these? If you are right, then it seems science has been proven wrong.

plugger,

I'm not sure on the meat quality. I have not read anything on this. I'm guessing it would be fine, just more meat. I have ate both 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks (taken in the same spot a year apart) and did not notice any difference in quality. I think the biggest influence is probably feild care.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Oh Hypox, my goodness. So we want Michigan "full of mature bucks" to make it easier to take a trophy? More like a desire to do something about the absolutely hideous doe:buck ratio and completely unnatural lack of buck age structure that we suffer from in this state.

As for the real antler pigs, see Bob's post. I could not possibly agree more.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by hypox _
> *Once again I don't see how our heard is unhealthy.*


 To use the area where I hunt as an example. The buck-doe ratio is about 1:7. There is a 5 foot browse line in the woody, winter browse. The deer were starting to feed on balsam fir on my property in February. I have seen or have DeerCam pics of 4 does with fawns this year. All are single fawns, I have not seen any twins in my area. Conclusion: a poor buck-doe ratio and too many deer for the habitat, this is not a healthy deer herd.

Hypox, how do you determine that the deer herd where you hunt is healthy?


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

I look at health by the thickness of the body fat on the does when I skin them, the sightings of twin fawns, the ground littered with untouched acorns in early Dec. On the state land where I hunt, the deer appear to be very healthy. Buck/doe ratios are way off, but the population is low and the browse/mast crops appear more than sufficient to sustain the herd.

As for Bob's post on "antler snobs". After over 20 of years of deer hunting, I've never met a person that fits that description and most of the people I hunt with are "meat hunters".


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Threads like this can allow you to throw away your calender. It reminds me very much of "that other site" only a different game animal.


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

Aw, c'mon FREEPOP, we are just discussing things and sharing ideas.

Hey, nice buck in your avatar. Is that a Kansas deer? Ohio perhads?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I know. It's good to have discussion and such but everyone usually ends up getting a little jab here and there. We're also passionate about this, so it can be taken to heart and things sour.
In the infamous words of, either Splitshot or Shoeman I think, "We basically all want the same thing." The problem is finding the method. I personally have a problem with the method that our herd managers use to count our deer. 
Oh, that deer was from Michigan, 2 1/2 and I thought he was 3 1/2, even when only 10 yards away. Silly me, I guess I'm just used to those deer that don't get the quality/quantity type browse.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

L&O, I've shot 3 doe's each in the last 4 years. Total of 12. We've been averaging about 12 per season at the club for the last 4 years. However, that wasn't always the case. Hey, for years, we were part of that group that applied for antlerless tags just so we could stop someone else from getting one. We sometimes shot a doe or 2 for camp meat, but that was about it. Shooting more than 2 per camp, per season would have been taboo. You know the old saying of "you just killed 3 deer!". We also shot every buck/any buck. The theory was, if we didn't shoot it, someone on the public land would as soon as it hopped the fence. And, 15-50 years ago, party hunting was the norm. If you see a buck, shoot it and we'll figure out the tag problem later. Guys always left their tags at camp after they went back home after opener. I'm not saying it was right, but it was just the way it was. From the stories I hear, from about 1940-1985, it was very common. I was weened on hunting during the tail end of it. Again, I'm not saying it was right, it just was. But, some camps mature and educate themselves. QDM, antler restrictions, passing small bucks, food plots, etc, are all pretty new in about the last 5 years. Plus, after you shoot enough small ones, they become kind of meaningless. No thrill and when you dig through a bag of antlers in the shed of the camp and can't even recall which ones you shot. I haven't shot a buck in Michigan in 3 years. While last year was very tough, I did pass up a bunch the previous 2 years. I passed 16 bucks 3 years ago. Prior to 3 years ago, I always tagged out. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about when I describe the guys that say "you can't eat the horns", but then shoot the first small buck they see. I WAS ONE OF THEM! And so was everyone at our camp. We also finally put 2 and 2 together on why we rarely saw or heard of anything bigger than a basket 6pt. Our camp and everyone else around us was doing the same thing.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Brian, I often hear the comment "I got my buck", You will find that 90% of the time when asked for details the buck is a spike or a forkie.

You never hear a guy that shot a big buck say that. They always say I got a "big 8 point" or a "nice six point".

That's one of the things that I would like to see changed, over the years. The stigma that if you don't shoot a buck then you wern't successful. I guess it's kinda a macho thing, implying that killing any buck makes you a better hunter.

I might notice these thing more, because I'm more sensitive to the issue, but I think if you listed carefully this Fall to huntign reports amongst friends, family and co-workers you will hear the same thing.

Neal


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

I think I understand where you both (Bob & Neal) are coming from. If you say you are a meat hunter, and horns aren't important, AND you have a doe permit, it doesn't make sense to shoot the little spike. I agree with that.

But I hunt state land in Gladwin CO. where doe permits are extremely rare. For the guys that only rifle hunt and aren't concerned about the size of the rack they will shoot the first legal buck they see. Its not really a macho thing, but that is what they are there for, to shoot a deer and enjoy the meat. Sure, if the rack is bigger than average, then they will get more excited. But when they weigh the two options, shoot a pike or wait for a bigger deer and possibly not have venison, to many people it comes down to whats more important to them.

Last year I missed my one shot at a doe while bow hunting. When rifle season opened I knew I would take the first buck I saw. Why? Because I want to eat some venison. 

I was hunting an area where my uncle saw a huge buck while bow hunting, but couldn't get close enough for a shot. His scrapes and rubs were all over the woods. I knew I had a good chance of seeing him but when the little 4-point stepped out there was no hesitation on my part. I wanted venison.

The way I see it, if I don't shoot a deer, then I'm not successful. I never have, and never will pass up a shot at a doe with my bow. But if rifle season comes along and there is no venison in the freezer, well, that spike better beware.

Is there anything really wrong with that?


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> Is there anything really wrong with that?


There's the million dollar question......I guess the answer falls, at this point, within the individual hunter.

For many the answer is NO, it is legal and you have the right to shoot it.

For many others YES, the overall structure and health of our deer heard should come before putting venison on everyones plate.

The sad part of your scenerio is how pityful many of our state lands have become. This is a subject that we all can agree need improvement.

Neal


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

Neal, now you lost me. 

In what way is the state land I hunt pitiful? The only thing wrong with it is the buck/doe ratio. That doesn't make it pitiful. 

The size of the herd is reasonable (no overpopulation, so no doe permits). There is some age structure. The buck my uncle saw last year was probably a 3 1/5 yr old and suprisingly, the buck kill last rifle season was allmost evenly split between 1 1/2 yr olds and 2 1/2 yr olds (this was the first time that has ever happened and not the norm, but it may be an indication of a turn-around in the herd).


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

I'm sorry, I wasn't referring to your area specifically. I know it sounded that way. I think from observing others opinions, most state land hunters are dissatisfied with their hunting opportunities, too few deer, too many hunters,poor habitat,If i don't shoot it someone else will.

I have not experienced that when I hunted mostly state land, but from the posts on this site, that's what I am led to believe.

Neal


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

This thread has wandered quite a ways from the original post about our opening date of Nov 15 interupting the rut and I wanted to throw out an observation related to the that. I hunt a lot, about 50 days out of the first 60 in Oct and Nov. I usually only miss rainy days in bow season and an occasional special event. Even with duck hunting, I'll duck hunt the AM and bow hunt the PM. From my observations over many years, the rut is peaking from Nov 1 to Nov 10 in southern MI. It usually starts to wind down by the opening of gun season(Nov 11-14), evidenced by scrapes not get freshened and less daytime buck activity. I'm not saying rut activity doesn't occur during gun season because it does. I just think that most mature does are bred by the 15th. I'm not sure a Nov 15 start date really interupts the rut here in our state based on my observations. Perhaps it is different in other parts of the state. Any other thoughts on that?


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I think it's a bigger window. I've seen decent numbers of bucks chasing doe's from about Oct. 28-Nov. 25. I'd say peak is Nov. 1-Nov. 15. But we'll never really know because the deer world is turned upside down by Nov. 13. Any rut activity is destroyed from Nov. 13-Nov. 18.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Edb, the rutting activity you observe in early November has been referred to by some (ex. Chas. Alsheimer) either the seeking or chasing phases of the rut, when rutting activity and deer movement is heightened. Immediately following that is the "breeding" phase, when the bulk of the actual breeding happens, and deer visibility is less than it was during the previous phases. As you have noticed, the scrapes are usually not worked nearly as much when we approach mid-November. During the breeding phase, we usually notice a lot of fawns in the deer sighting mix, as many of them have been temporarily abandoned by their breeding moms, leaving the fawns to wander around on their own. 

DNR studies from several years ago indicated that peak breeding in southern Michigan occurred right around the time of the firearms opener, roughly between the 13th and 17th of November. As I recall, the actual most frequent breeding day was the 16th. This is fairly easy to measure by taking a large sampling of fawn-drop dates and working backwards, assuming an average gestation period.

A later firearms opener would likely allow for breeding to be less disrupted.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

The bucks in our area get a blindfold and cigarette for their last request on Nov. 15-16.


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## DEERSLAYER (Mar 29, 2000)

Brian S,

If you do not get a deer then you are not succesfull? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I feel a little sorry for you. While I very much want to get a deer also, I go for the whole experience. Friends and/or family, enjoying nature, etc. 

Also, are you not willing to risk possibly one year without venison for the betterment of the herd? Remember, if we were required to pass on those little bucks, 90+% of them would be around the following year. Then your chances would once again be up there where you are used to, and then when you get a deer you would have more venison on your plate. You would be better off in the long run.

BOB, LOL. I really liked that one.  


P.S. Is it me or has everyone that you have ever heard of that hunted on a piece of property (large enough to be effective) that has been in a QDM program (and I'm not talking about fenced area's either) been sold on it or what?


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## Tim Baker (Jan 18, 2000)

Edb, the DNR has said in the past that 50% of the does get breed before the 15th and 50% after. It's nearly impossible to observe the rut after the 15th due to gun season.

I have always seen the biggest bucks from the 10th-15th. Don't be fooled by the imature bucks running around the first week of Nov. If you talk to people in states that don't have gun season until Dec. you will find that a lot of the mature bucks don't really start moving until the 10th. If you ever get to hunt out of state after the 15th you will see what were missing and how late the rut really runs.

Tim


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## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

DEERSLAYER, you've got to be kidding me. Feeling a little sorry for a guy like me? If only you knew. Dude, you gotta come hunting with me some day


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

Tim, I don't know where you hunt but a lot of mature bucks are on the move big time in Jackson County from Nov 1-10, as well as 11-14. I hunt every day then. I don't have any desire to hunt out of state because the quality of hunting is great where I'm at. I'm fortunate to access some great property. Still, I know there are many weak spots around the state. 

I could support moving the opener back given the science backing it as many of you cited. It would also be great to get another week or two of bowhunting then.


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