# Changing of the Gaurd



## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

I believe PDJ considered the ES to be the traditional "grouse" dog in this recent magazine.

Traditional or not traditional- For anyone interested in buying a "hunting dog", it seems to me the price for "well bred" Setter or Pointer is considerably lower than buying a "well bred" V, Weim, Spinone (I figured I'd throw out the spinone name since we're already talking about it). Now, not to say there is not a bargain or two out there, but anyone who has done any research on puppies lately would have to agree. 

*Disclaimer* This is an overall average and generalization- I'm not counting some of the CHK (and other buy our name breeders) out there... If I'm buying something for $2,000 on a hope that it will work out, you better believe it is a mail order bride who loves to cook!


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

FieldWalker said:


> If I'm buying something for $2,000 on a hope that it will work out, you better believe it QUOTE]
> 
> Or one hell of-a-night one bridge north at the "Dime":rant:


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

I'm not afraid to over use these smiley things.. but I actually laughed out loud, so I'll throw out a couple more :lol: :lol:


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## dyemen (Feb 20, 2005)

Wow....what's on your mind???:lol: :lol: We are talking about dogs....not chickens:chicken:!:lol: :lol:


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I can say I have hunted over some really good flushing dogs even though hounds aren't really considered flushing breeds. If none of you have never hunted over a good beagle that hunts pheasants you haven't lived. They have their own built in beeper to keep track of them and the closer to the bird their are the more the beeper works. You better have your track shoes on because a good beagle can really put the run in to a rooster! The problem with using a beagle on grouse (I sure they would hunt them given the chance) you could spent half the day trying to get dog off snowshoe rabbits and back on grouse. I have seen Steelheadfred' lab hunt(and have pictures to prove it) but would I care to hunt with them at grouse camp no. It's nothing personal but the old knees just wouldn't be able to keep up with a flushing breed and why ask somebody to complicate their hunt lifes to short.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> I can say I have hunted over some really good flushing dogs even though hounds aren't really considered flushing breeds. If none of you have never hunted over a good beagle that hunts pheasants you haven't lived. They have their own built in beeper to keep track of them and the closer to the bird their are the more the beeper works. You better have your track shoes on because a good beagle can really put the run in to a rooster! The problem with using a beagle on grouse (I sure they would hunt them given the chance) you could spent half the day trying to get dog off snowshoe rabbits and back on grouse. I have seen Steelheadfred' lab hunt(and have pictures to prove it) but would I care to hunt with them at grouse camp no. It's nothing personal but the old knees just wouldn't be able to keep up with a flushing breed and why ask somebody to complicate their hunt lifes to short.


 
Terry someday I am going to have a grouse wagon like yours! Maybe even a brace of setters or pointers.


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## Vizsla Hunt Dog (Jan 8, 2003)

Has this thread gone down hill or what?

Great post Fritz. For me, it's more about watching a good dog work.

Now if they can cook or clean, that's another story.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

OK lets get it going again. 


Reasons why you think some traditional Grouse Hunters are moving to flushing breeds, and at times little known flushing breeds.

I will give my opinion which should get it going again.


The majority of hunters I have spoken with that are switching are seasoned grouse hunters if that is the PC way to put it. Meaning they have 30 some years with high octane setters,pointers, and brits. Many of them were active field trialers.

They have shared with me that they desire a slower working dog, a dog that does not require the pure all out polish that is needed for a true wild grouse dog. A dog that retrieves well and consistently. Yet a dog that can go anywhere do anything with them. Many are retired and travel to the D's for roosters, some even duck hunt. 

I also believe that there has been some of what Worm Dunker Talked about, right now it seems cool to have a neat spaniel or "special" lab. This takes nothing away from the breeds and or their ability to hunt. I enjoy seeing the rare breeds out and about in the woods. Gun Dog has been pushing ECS's for some time, they even ran a special on long lost American Cockers.

I also feel that some hunters have decided that a slower working dog that hunts for the gun - will produce more birds in front of the gun for them, especially at this time when numbers are low and the available birds are wary.

It could also be what Dennis said and that my preception is nothing more than just a preception.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I think a lot od people are looking for a dog to meet their needs and if you are a upland/waterefowl guy there is really no point in a setter or E pointer but a gsp, lab, wirehair etc will fit the bill. Lao you need to look at what the social needs are as well and if the dog is a kennel dog or inside pet. I got a setter because I love phaesant hunting, have small children, wanted an indoor dog, and love the look of the setters. Prior to owning a setter I always had hunted behind labs when pheasant hunting and they did a great job I just love the idea of the point where I can walk up and flush the bird myself. Has more to do that what you think is good looking. Weigh the options and get the dog that best suits your needs. It all started because I took a couple of cheap shots at Fritz :lol: I was just joking about your dog but I am not joking when I say anything about that hat Steve showed us :yikes: :lol: 

AW


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Adam Waszak said:


> I think a lot od people are looking for a dog to meet their needs and if you are a upland/waterefowl guy there is really no point in a setter or E pointer but a gsp, lab, wirehair etc will fit the bill. Lao you need to look at what the social needs are as well and if the dog is a kennel dog or inside pet. I got a setter because I love phaesant hunting, have small children, wanted an indoor dog, and love the look of the setters. Prior to owning a setter I always had hunted behind labs when pheasant hunting and they did a great job I just love the idea of the point where I can walk up and flush the bird myself. Has more to do that what you think is good looking. Weigh the options and get the dog that best suits your needs. It all started because I took a couple of cheap shots at Fritz :lol: I was just joking about your dog but I am not joking when I say anything about that hat Steve showed us :yikes: :lol:
> 
> AW


AW
never took your jabs as anything more than jokes, just trying to put some life into this board with a respectful topic rather than the dribble of late.

WAIT till you see Kush's hat, and yes I plan to wear my hat all next fall!


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## PahtridgeHunter (Sep 1, 2004)

Oh no!!! Does that mean I have to get a goofy-a$$ hat in order to hunt with you guys this year too???:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

That hat looks like something an old plantation owner would were on the front porch sipping lemonade :lol: 

AW


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

Bring it on bitches! :lol: As long as it fits my head I'll wear it! Nothing can compare to Frederic Heller, doesn't he look like he should be driving a range rover with a couple of setters in the back, smoking a Cuban?


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Some gray facial hair and he looks like colonel Sanders the chicken man! :yikes: 

Steve what does Setters have to do with that dmned ugly hat :rant: A setter guy such as myself would wear a Filson because as is with dogs "might as well have the best" :lol: 

AW


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

GVSUKUSH said:


> Bring it on bitches! :lol: As long as it fits my head I'll wear it! Nothing can compare to Frederic Heller, doesn't he look like he should be driving a range rover with a couple of setters in the back, smoking a Cuban?


 
I thought we were getting back on topic. 

Kush lot a balls from a guy that shoots a rusty 870 Express:lol:


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

I think you have been hanging out with guys old enough to be you grandfather :lol: May have been suffering from "oldtimers" and can't remember what a pointing dog is. 
Maybe you were dreaming  
I think its something in the water in TC.

Anyway, Trends, Fads etc, I have never been a trendy type guy.
I don't EVER think flushers will out number pointing dogs in the grouse woods.
For Phesants its possible.

Now about that G-String comment, never liked anything between the cheeks.
I did however get one in the mail last week with some dvd's. It would make a nice hat band.

Wally


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

GVSUKUSH said:


>



I don't know but that guy in tha back there looks pissed at the cameraman was that you taking the picture Steve :lol: 

AW


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Adam Waszak said:


> I don't know but that guy in tha back there looks pissed at the cameraman was that you taking the picture Steve :lol:
> 
> AW


I think the guy in the back was pissed about the 80 degree October day and the fact that he had missed like 9 WC in a row!

Kush did not shoot so well that weekend either, had the easiest Grouse of his career a true right to lefter quartering slightly away, young and slow. Never got the safety off!  New Mossberg Pump was the excuse! 

Wally,

You would have to ask Kushy about t-backs, the only thing I know about them is they look good on my wife!


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> You would have to ask Kushy about t-backs, the only thing I know about them is they look good on my wife!



I'll vouch for that!!!!!!  

AW


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Adam Waszak said:


> I'll vouch for that!!!!!!
> 
> AW


WOW this is very crooked -

Nice Yorkie Dumb Ass


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Bruce,


No that is not what I am saying. You and one of your partners have done a great job answering all my ignorant questions about big running dogs. When I get a pointer I am getting one of those big running dogs. What I was saying is that I think many flushing dog owners think there is not a gunner/dog relationship with a big running dog (I was one of them before I saw how it worked). I thought I clarified that with the fear comment.

I am still amazed at Snoop's ability to know where we were at all times while hunting a long distance away.

I guess I am loosing myself. I am going to try and be done with this one.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

Fritz, I was not harpping on you, just thought that you were impling otherwise. I was not intending for you to drop out of this thread.  

The only time fear comes in with a bigger running pointing dog is what I explained in my earlier post (not being staunch) with most people. Flushers don't have this problem when hunting close.

There should be much more in the eyes of dog owners than chasing around birds and bragging on the amounts of kills (not that anyone hear is, but alot do). To me if a flusher is just putting birds in the air for the gunner to kill without being fully trained (as per my previous post) it is just a meat dog and the fun of owning one is not fully recognized. They should do it to the fullest, to be what I call enjoyable and satisfying. Sure I like to shoot birds but the fun to me is training a dog to it's fullest potential and watching them perform in the field as such. If they don't do it right the bird will live to see another day.


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## dyemen (Feb 20, 2005)

Bear Creek said:


> Omega I'm talking about these rare exotic breeds that Fritz has listed. And more specifically the pointing breeds listed above. I can't really speak to the rare flushing dogs listed above as I have not seen them in the field. But if my choice was limited to the pointing dogs listed above, I wouldn't be hunting as I have seen these dogs and their hunt or lack of it would send me to a flusher in a heartbeat!! Just my two cents but these dogs are more for show than field work.
> 
> Bear Creek


I still don't think you can make that assumption!! EVERY dog is different.....and it depends on the background......just because I see a horrible hunting GSP does not mean that all GSP's are terrible hunters.....AND why is the dog a horrible hunter......I have found that people ruin the dogs more than a dog having no ability? As for show....most of those dogs listed are not able to show in the AKC ring so how can there focus be on show? Let's get back to the focus on WHY people are going to one breed from another and stop trying to generalize/condem certain breeds of dogs?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Bruce I am back just for you!

Your post was well written - I guess I am most impressed that this subject is yet to turn south.

I guess you are right, I enjoy training the dogs and seeing them reach there full potential. I have no experience in training a pointing dog and can not compare the ease of training flusher vs. pointer. 

I enjoy all forms of gun dogs. I got another dog, because I was done for the most part training Hilde. I have taken her to my limit at least and am satisfied for the most part with her performance. We will see with this new one.

Keep me posted on the Bird Front as I could use some soon. Fritz


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## dyemen (Feb 20, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> I guess you are right, I enjoy training the dogs and seeing them reach there full potential. I have no experience in training a pointing dog and can not compare the ease of training flusher vs. pointer.


I don't think that training one over another is necesarily easier.....maybe different......but if training apples to apples I am sure they equate the same amount of knowledge, effort, and time!


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## TomW (Nov 19, 2003)

So far - All I have heard here is a lot of sour grapes. But perhaps one other reason that some of these older grouse hunters with 30 years over pointing breeds are switching, is because they are bored!! :evil: Perhaps after training a dozen or so poining dogs they want to try something different? 

I am of the school that likes to see good to excellent bird work. On the other hand - I am not a fan of flushers, as most that I have seen are what I would consider poor examples of their profession. Many are ill trained IMHO. I really like the looks of an English Cocker. I may even own one someday, but I am not really sure they will fit the bill as well as my English Setters do. Thats not to say that I think my Setters are perfect either. One day I may have one I think is, but that is probably many years into the future! Which may be another reason some of these guys are switching to rarer breeds. After having finially produced their very best pointing dog. They may switch because they might not be able to do the same with their next. Switching breeds lets them start fresh with something very different. 

Another thing about so called versatility. I still don't know what this really refers to. My Setters can hunt any kind of bird. Pheasant, Grouse, Woodcock, and although I don't water fowl, I expect that several of my setters would retreive ducks without much problem, and be damn willing to give it a try on geese if they could manage it. At least one of my girls would make a good rabbit dog, and my wifes grandfather use to hunt Squirrels with his Setter and a 22 cal rifle. 

I have to agree with some of you - that the majority of people buying these rarer dogs and flushers I think are becuase of their FAD value and the idea that they may be getting in on the ground floor of the next big thing. I have heard of people going out and spending thousands of dollars on a setter, not put any training on it, and expecting it to be a bird finding machine. It aint going to happen. But as Fritz and some of you have demonstrated not all these guys are a like. Some have a great deal of experence, some only what they read in a slick journal. 

Bruce (Backwoods) is right on the money. There is nothing better than a well trained bird dog no matter the breed or style. I just object to the idea that a fancy flusher that puts up a lot of birds is necessarily better. My Boxer could do that!

Enough Said.

Tom W.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

Fritz, I knew you would come back.  I don't think the post turned south, just getting to the guts of why people may be leaning towards flushers. Sorry if I took the long way around to get to it.



> I don't think that training one over another is necesarily easier.....maybe different......but if training apples to apples I am sure they equate the same amount of knowledge, effort, and time!


Which is exactly my point. Keep a good hunting, untrained flusher within gun range and you'll kill bird's. Let a good hunting, untrained pointer range and you'll have nothing to shoot at.

This is why I think most (not all) people like flushers and are switching to. People lack the time and don't put fourth the effort needed to train a pointer. Like I said earlier, I have yet to see very many finished flushers but I have seen alot of guys bragging on how many birds they kill over them. This may not hold true for all who are switching over but I bet it is one of the biggest factors.

I agree Dyemen, to train a flusher to it's fullest potental will take just as much time, effort, and knowledge as it does to train a pointer.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

Back woods said:


> Which is exactly my point. Keep a good hunting, untrained flusher within gun range and you'll kill bird's. Let a good hunting, untrained pointer range and you'll have nothing to shoot at.
> 
> This is why I think most (not all) people like flushers and are switching to. People lack the time and don't put fourth the effort needed to train a pointer.


Eggsactly. In addition, I would add the dwindling amount of quality grouse cover in large public tracts limits the usefulness of big running dogs. I don't have too many covers where I could let the dog run for 2 hours in a constant search for birds. Most of the spots I hit now are smaller 40 acres holes where a flusher would be most effective. The limitations of time, training, experience, and cover may all affect dog choices. The reality is most hunters just want to go shoot some birds over their dog with the minimum investment of time and training. For them, the flusher is an excellent choice.


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## dyemen (Feb 20, 2005)

This has been a great Post Fritz! I enjoy interacting with something that has "meat" 

Backwoods.....only thing i would change on your post is....I think there are more "untrained" pointers out there than you think.....dogs that have instinct to point that guys are killing birds over......these dogs are going on Natural ability alone...... though overall.....I agree with that statement!

Tom....I think you may have hit something.....Bored??!!! people looking for new challenges....new experiences! On versatility....as I got more into the game(of dogs)....the wachtelhund became more of the type of dog that I was looking for! I can take them out one day to waterfowl, next day to upland, next day to run rabbits(tonging just like a beagle), next day to bloodtrail deer, etc.. etc.. etc... at the same time being a family dog, quietly laying down in the house and being loved/showing love to my family. Could my shorthair do all that.....Yup.....as effeciently....probably not, at least for me! I said the same thing about flushers....that I would never hunt over one....but now I am phasing out the gsp's and going to a flusher.........as for the comment about your boxer.....great! will see him at bird camp with AW's Yorkie this fall!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

This has been one of the better posts - Dave Medema has a way with words and Backwoods got so much experience, Tom W I think stayed on track with his answer and was a really good answer.....

Do not forget Kush is looking at Border Collie's for his next bird dog!


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## POLARBEAR (May 13, 2002)

dyemen


> I said the same thing about flushers....that I would never hunt over one....but now I am phasing out the gsp's and going to a flusher.........


 Thank god for that. i love sassy and am blessed to have her. :lol: you can keep your flushers, i am no track star. :evil: :lol: but i seem to remember one guy still willing to hunt the last time we were out. :lol:  and my pointers were still going strong? :lol: 

fritz, good job keeping this one on track. 


note smillies


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> This has been one of the better posts - Dave Medema has a way with words and Backwoods got so much experience, Tom W I think stayed on track with his answer and was a really good answer.....
> 
> Do not forget Kush is looking at Border Collie's for his next bird dog!


What the hell do I know, I hunt with a rusty 870 right? :lol:


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

Can't top those posts from Bruce, Tom W & Dave
Everything that can be said has been, now time will tell.

For me though, no more kids at home & the dogs are the kids now & it won't cost me $260,000 to raise one till they are adults :lol: 

Wally


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

drwink said:


> Can't top those posts from Bruce, Tom W & Dave
> Everything that can be said has been, now time will tell.
> 
> For me though, no more kids at home & the dogs are the kids now & it won't cost me $260,000 to raise one till they are adults :lol:
> ...



Another bird dog will have to wait for now because I have $780,000 worth of kids at home eatin all my damn food :lol: 

Yes Fritz and my wifes Yorkie too  

AW


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

Fritz,

Interesting post. I grew up in the TC area, bird hunting was always my passion right form age 12. When you said the setter and brit were the dominant dog in that area, it made me think back. Your right, If I ran into 50 hunters in a fall, 30 of them would have brits 15 would be setters and the remaining would be some form of plodding bob tailed continental breed. I got my first shorthair in 1975 from a guy in Fife Lake. Took me six months to find a litter that was for sale. Nobody even knew what they were. How things have changed.

Now I don't like hunting behind flushers for grouse, just my taste. But with that being said, I have hunted over a couple of Labs that are about as good of a grouse finder as they get. I think the success of the flushers on grouse is due partialy to the way that the grouse has evolved. Used to be a grouse would hold for a point. Sometimes as good as a woodcock. Now a days, those evil things make a pheasant look like he holds tight. Thats why I think the flushers are becoming so good at putting grouse up for the gun. They don't give the bird a chance to think like a pointer can. Pointer finds, points and stands till my slow butt catches up. Meantime Mr. Ruff has found and executed an escape which leaves me and fido with another unproductive point. Mr flusher makes scent, chargs in and puts the bird in the air, if you are man enough to keep up, you'll be shooting.

I still perfer my pointing dogs though. We still manage to kill a fair number of those ruffies. Maybe they are the dumb ones, but they taste just as good.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

GVSUKUSH said:


>



:lol: I love it and cannot get enough of it :lol: The hat is topps for sure :lol: :lol: But the guy pissed in the back is better :lol: :lol:I am sorry Fred but you keep hitting on the Yorkie dammit now you Got others doin it :rant: So I will keep this picture of your hat going forever :lol: :lol: 

AW


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Adam,

Just for you!










Lucky Dog,

Great responce, I am not so sure that the grouse are evolving as much as I think the down cycle makes the few out there as crafty as ever! I did notice last season that they ran and ran and ran at times!


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> Lucky Dog,
> 
> Great responce, I am not so sure that the grouse are evolving as much as I think the down cycle makes the few out there as crafty as ever! I did notice last season that they ran and ran and ran at times!


Ok lets not call it evolution, how about natural selection. The runners survive, the ones that hold tight get killed. 

The thing I have a hard time with is the theory of "cycles" The "cycle" has been down since about 1985. Why cant we call it what it is, a population decrease.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

I like to think that I have all TC. grouse educated by the time bird season rolls around and that it takes a real good dog to point them.  I have my string of dogs in the woods from July 15th till the opener. I get a lot of them pointed early in the season then the young birds start to wise up and become tougher to get pointed.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Back woods said:


> I like to think that I have all TC. grouse educated by the time bird season rolls around and that it takes a real good dog to point them.  I have my string of dogs in the woods from July 15th till the opener. I get a lot of them pointed early in the season then the young birds start to wise up and become tougher to get pointed.


JERK!

I am of the belief there is a cycle. My flush records show that, this does not mean there are not pockets of really good hunting in a down year. But the numbers I moved in the late 90's (when I was pretty clueless) were much higher than now. 

Back in the late 90's I was in college and living in GR. I did far more steelheading than Bird Hunting - the bird hunting I did was more Pheasants - it is hard to have a bird dog in college. But I have moved a total of 0 grouse since 01 while pheasant hunting, a couple of those years in the mid 90's it was not all that uncommon to move grouse along the thick edges of CRP in Mid to Southern MI. I used to also move a lot of birds along the rivers fishing. That stoped in 01ish. Kush and I used to move birds along the lower Rogue at one of our steelhead spots. This was marginal cover. Back then when I did grouse hunt, I found birds in cover I would never even hunt now! Like I said there was a learning curve and I hunted areas that I had moved birds in on my way to and from rivers.


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