# let's talk laminate flooring



## sweatyspartan (May 24, 2004)

I have about 2000 sq ft of flooring that needs to be replaced on a slab foundation. I'm not a huge fan of carpet, and after pricing it out it seems that a quality carpet/pad/installation is going to be as much or usually more than a hardwood/laminate type product. Out of the gate I was dead set on using hardwood. After thinking about the problems I could have with that on a slab (plus the hassle of installation) I started looking at a floating floor and laminate.

Laminate has come a long way since the first time I remember looking at it! This stuff actually looks like wood...and feels like it. I think I was set on wood because of the ego of "I have all hardwood in my house". But, if I can get a more durable product at a lower price (I can install the laminate) why wouldn't I?

I started doing some research on the flooring. The goal is to have a quality product at a fair price. I have been on some laminate floors where it sounds like you are wearing tap shoes, so I need a quality underlayment also. When I went to home depot I looked at Dupont, Pergo and Bruce. The Pergo stuff looked fake so thats out of the running. The Dupont looked alright, but not as nice as the Bruce looked. I should be able to get hooked up on Bruce through work...so we'll see on that pricing.

On the recommendation of a co-worker I went to Sams club's website and they have a product called lock'n seal by uniboard. Its ridiculously cheap compared to the Bruce product. Bruce was coming in at about 4-5 bucks a square once you take underlayment into consideration. The lock'n seal was about 1.50/sq which included an attatched padding (but it still requires a 6 mil plastic underlayment).

My biggest concern is laying this product throughout my house and having it look cheap. The price point of the house is in a position where cheap flooring would hurt me down the line in terms of resale. If anyone has any experience with either of these products I'd love any input.

Any tips on installation would be appreciated also.

Thanks in advance


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

I put down a hardwood laminate that is made by Tarkett and is sold at Home Depot. It has a 1/8inch thich real hardwood laminate ontop of 1/4inch of plywood (i think that was the thicknesses). The hard wood can be refinished if ever needed. It is has "snap" together seams and can be glued down, nailed down or installed "floating" like other laminates ( I floated mine). I used the "premium" underlayment that Home depot sells (its a green colored foam on a roll, aprox 1/8inch thick) and it deadens the sound and makes it sound like real hardwood flooring. The floor has worn pretty good over the last 3 years considering I have a dog and two young kids, LOL. They also have trim that matches the floor (it comes in numerous colors, I went with a red oak).

I did about 800sgft in a weekend, with lots of cuts around cabinets and a tricky bay/slider door. The open areas go really fast.

Main thing about laying over a slab is that it is dry (no leaks, condesation and it is cured well) and a wood floor over a slab is gonna be cold (unless you have radiant heat in the floor) so you may want to insulate with foam sheets if praticable for your application.

Here is a link to Tarkett's website for you to check out.

http://www.tarkett-floors.com/us/

Also may want to try finehomebuilding.com. They have a fourm area and it is kind of the MS.com or Archerytalk.com of the construction trades.

Hope this helps,
J-

PS: I am not employed by either Tarkett or Home Depot, just happy with their product.


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## res (Nov 22, 2006)

The one problem you may face is installation on a slab. You will need to research and carefully install a moisture barrier under you laminate so that it does not draw moisture from the concrete. That will destroy your floor quickly. I have Tarkett flooring as described by jjc155 in my home as well but you won't get it for less then $4 per foot. I did a glue and nail down job and it is doing very well. Again, putting it over concrete requires a moisture barrier be installed between the concrete and the flooring. There are ways of testing for moisture penetration though the floor by laying plastic in a test spot but I would have to research the internet to find the exact procedure. Just remember, cheap is not always good in home construction if you are lookning for life and durability. Rick


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

I've installed a lot of laminate flooring. I put over 2000 square feet of it in one house. It was the Dupont Elite series from Home Depot. It came out really nice and installed well. I've never installed laminate over a slab but it should be the same as installing over a sub-floor. I will recommend using the laminate with the padding already attached. It's MUCH easier and better than the other type. I guess you may need the 6 mil visqueen for a vapor barrier over the concrete slab but that shouldn't be difficult or expensive. I've also installed that brand you get at Sams Club and it too was fairly easy to work with. Not as nice as the Dupont but pretty nice. The nice thing about the Dupont brand is the size of the pieces. They're basically 1' wide and 4' long so it installs fairly quickly. 

Here's another tip on installing laminate. If you're going to attempt a job of this size you should invest in a laminate cutting blade for your circular saw! The aluminum oxide they use in the wear layer of all this stuff is hell on carbide blades. It will tear up even a good quality standard carbide blade in no time. I spent about $80 for my blade and installed quite a bit of flooring with it. It works GREAT! Although it's about due for a sharpening but it's WELL worth the investment in a blade of this type if you're going to be doing more than a couple hundred square feet of laminate. 

If you do decide to to this and would like some tips give me a call and can show you some tricks I've learned for working with this stuff. It will make it much easier and quicker to install. 

Oh yeah, we talked about your water heater a little while ago. Sorry about not getting back to you to do that. But I was making slow steady progress with the PT on my knee surgery. But a couple weeks ago they switched up my routine in PT and I think something went wrong because I'm going in the wrong direction. At this point I'm back to feeling almost exactly as I did BEFORE my surgery. I've got to get in touch with my doctor tomorrow and see if he can get me in for a re-evaluation. I'm not sure but the way I feel right now I may be going back under the knife soon.  I'm really hoping to avoid that but it really feels that way. I won't be doing any flooring work for a while but as I said before, I could meet you there and show you some tips for working with this stuff that will make it much easier for you.

Let me know.

John


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## sweatyspartan (May 24, 2004)

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm trying not to be cheap about it, but the difference between 4 and 5 bucks a square over 2000 sq feet adds up quick!

jjc - I looked at the engineered hardwood that you are talking about. WIth the wear and tear these floors will see, I definitely think the laminate will be more suited for the task.

I think what I'm going to end up doing is buying one with the pad on the back and laying down a visqueen layer below that pad.

John - I never thought about getting a new blade for my mitre saw. I just bought a red diablo blade for the trim work and I'd hate to ruin it. Good luck with the PT and just keep doing what they tell ya and put all your effort into it. Extra effort today is worth extra steps in the future. I'll get a hold of you before I put it all in just to run through my plans and stuff.

If that Sam's club stuff looks "worse" than the Dupont, then it will probably be worth spending the extra bucks and buying the bruce product....hopefully I can get hooked up on that pricing.

Thanks again


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

Sounds like a plan!

Here's the blade I bought and it works very well for a clean chip free cut and doesn't wear out like a standard carbide blade will.

http://www.freudtools.com/p-23-single-sided-laminatemelaminebr-nbsp.aspx

I'd just get the 7" and use it in a skill saw. They make a larger version that may work in a miter saw. A lot of the cuts you'll make will just be cutting a piece to length. In that case, the miter saw would work. But you will also have a lot of ripping to do for the last row and around corners and such. The miter saw won't work for that so you might as well just plan on using your circular saw. In fact, somewhere around here I've got a jig I made up for cutting the pieces to length. It worked really well for getting a nice straight and square cut. It holds the piece steady and makes it much easier to cut. You can use that if you'd like. 

Let me know when you're ready and we can hook up.

John

*EDIT:*
I just did a search and found a heck of a good price on this blade in 7". As I said, I paid almost $80 for mine at Butki. They're usually at least $70 but this place online is selling it for $56 and change!

http://www.nextag.com/Freud-LU98R007-7-56-62235362/prices-html


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## res (Nov 22, 2006)

I have seen laminate floors after having dogs in the house, sorry, I personally do not think they live up to their promises. You are doing the right thing in doing the research. Lots of people will have ideas. You might also ask for input from those that have had it in their homes for several years and find out what some of them think and how they used it. I am only going from my experience. Rick


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## res (Nov 22, 2006)

http://ezinearticles.com/?Installing-Laminate-Flooring---Dos-and-Donts!&id=307282

Straight from the Pergo installation instructions

MOISTURE TEST:​A moisture test is recommended on all concrete
subfloors and wood subfloors constructed over a
crawl space or basement. Maximum acceptable
moisture reading for wood subfloors is 14%. Maximum
acceptable moisture reading for concrete subfloors
is 4.5% or a moisture vapor emission rate of
5lbs/1000sq. ft/24 hrs.
IMPORTANT NOTE: During a dry season, you may find that
you get an acceptable moisture reading even if other
job site conditions are not acceptable. Before installing
Pergo floors, you must be sure that your job site conditions
as well as your moisture readings are acceptable.​c. For concrete subfloors, vapor barriers, such as the
recommended Pergo 6-mil. polyethylene film
installed correctly, 8-inch overlap at seams, installed
up to the edge of the wall base or wall, will protect
the finished floor from normal water vapor that is
emitted through the concrete from a correctly constructed,
maintained and undamaged building and
correctly graded site that prevents excessive water
exposure.

http://pergo.com/images/pdfs/Install_Essentials.pdf

Straight from the web site of uniboard 

*A) Concrete*
 The surface must be clean, smooth and level. Slopes steeper than 1/2" per 5 ft (12.5 mm/1.62 m)
must be leveled. Correct any warping or changes of slope.
 Apply a sealant (dust inhibiting).
 Use a vapor barrier at least 0.006" thick (0.008"/0.2 mm recommended). Edges should overlap by 200 mm (8").
 Lay 1" (25 mm) of the vapor barrier up the walls.
 Put down the polyethylene foam underlay. In this case, edges should not overlap.
 Lay the flooring.

http://www.uniboardsurfaces.com/pages/020000/020100/enfset020100.html

I am not saying installation over concrete is any different in the function then over subfloor. It is in the surface prep. and the preperation that a job that looks real good starts to fall apart long before it should. 

You are doing the right thing. Kepp researching. With a bit of patience, it is not difficult to cut and snap together. By the way, I also agree with the suggestion of a specialize blade. The stuff can throw sparks standard blades. :lol: Rick​


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## dumredneck (May 19, 2005)

One thing I have learned about laminates...Many have a long "warranty" some around 20 years, but most of these are "wear-thru" warranties. Scratches and dulling are not covered. 
Just another thing to consider when shopping.


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

I installed about 400 feet of Pergo about ten years ago in a family room of some good friends of ours. They have two kids and had two big goldens at the time. They eventually lost the goldens one at a time after about 5-6 years. But they weren't without a dog for more than six months and have another good sized golden. I haven't been over there in the last few months but the floor still looks almost as good as it did when it was installed. And this is in a room that gets the most use of any in the house.

Just my .02

John


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

sweatyspartan said:


> jjc - I looked at the engineered hardwood that you are talking about. WIth the wear and tear these floors will see, I definitely think the laminate will be more suited for the task.


Mine has held up great to a 80lbs Weimaraner and a 2 and 5 year old, plus you can refinish it, which you can't do with laminate. Contrary to popular belief laminate does show wear and tear and they are not immune to damage and they can't be refinished when they get chewed up.

Just my 2 cents,

J-


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## ih772 (Jan 28, 2003)

I put in about 500 sq ft of laminate in a house to dress it up a bit before I sold it a couple years ago. 

Here's a couple of things I learned. 

Like Jpollman said, buy the right blade for the job or else you'll wreck one in a hurry. It looks good when you look straight down at it, but it looks cheap when you look at it from an angle. The finish has a sheen to it that makes it look that way. It gets dirty very fast, and dog footprints and drool drops really stand out.

In my new house I put down 3/4" Oak hardwood and I'm very happy with it. I think I ended up spending a little over $4 a sq ft.

Make sure you use the right sort of staple driver for the job. Its the kind that runs off of compressed and you whack the end of it with a hammer and it drives the flooring together then staples it at the same it. 

My neighbor tried to be cheap and just used a nail gun and ruined $5,000 in material. He has lots of 1/8" gaps that dirt and other stuff collects in. It looks like crap and really needs to be torn out and installed the right way. He also didn't leave a gap around the edges like he was supposed to and now its buckling with the humidity.


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## severus (Feb 8, 2000)

ih772 said:


> He also didn't leave a gap around the edges like he was supposed to and now its buckling with the humidity.


Excellent point. Expansion and contraction should always be taken into consideration. 

I would also recommend paying close attention to making sure that the flooring is perpendicular/parallel to existing walls to ensure that the flooring lines don't run off at an unsightly angle. This can be a problem on a "cut-up" installation with lots of hallways and adjacent rooms; a snap-line can ensure that it will work out correctly and reveal which walls are off square, if any.


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## MSUICEMAN (Jan 9, 2002)

i'm going to have about 1k sq ft of old hardwood to tear out and replace with either solide hardwood or a good quality laminate to match my kitchen which was matched to the rest (done before me so I'm not sure what it is). Probably going to do it myself, but will probably have to pick your brains... i have an old house with plank subfloor...i'm assuming I need to put down a thin subfloor sheet prior to putting down hardwood.


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## sweatyspartan (May 24, 2004)

the main reason I'm not doing a true hardwood is because it would be a huge pain to install compared to a laminate (on a slab)


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## tedshunter (Dec 27, 2004)

I believe they want you to leave about 1/8''-1/4'' gap around the perimeter if you are going to do a free floating floor.That's what I did with my kitchen 1.5 years ago and it is holding up pretty good so far with a German shorthair running on it.


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## Springer4Ever (Jul 22, 2003)

I got mine from here 12mm thick from here very knowledgeable people http://www.lumberliquidators.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=3163&source=FloorFinderResultsPage


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

tedshunter said:


> I believe they want you to leave about 1/8''-1/4'' gap around the perimeter if you are going to do a free floating floor.That's what I did with my kitchen 1.5 years ago and it is holding up pretty good so far with a German shorthair running on it.


I generally use a 3/8" expansion gap around the perimeter whether I'm installing hardwood or laminate. Your shoe molding is generally going to be 5/8 anyway so it's still covered. Better safe than sorry! 

John


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