# Shooting hours



## Davelobi (Feb 14, 2012)

I read somewhere once that uncle Ted mentioned "hunters discretion" for shooting light. I get it that it has to be established in black and white as a rule/law. My old eyes often have me climbing down a little early anymore but some nights have better light than others.
The "official" publication from the State in the hunting and trapping digest has a chart showing start and end times but also says specifically "One-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset". Which is it? They are not the same.
I live and hunt in Livingston County which is at the far west edge of time zone "A" on the Michigan chart. A few miles west of me is assigned an extra 6 minutes later than where I'm hunting. I'm a long ways west (later sunset) than say St Clair County but according to the "chart" my shooting light ends at the same time. I shot a buck in the evening on the firearm opener at 5:39 pm. I thought I still had 4 minutes of legal shooting light according to local weather forecast but only had one minute left according to the chart. Not trying to stir the legality pot here but wondered if in this day of electronics, where we all have the exact "local" sunset at our fingertips, if this is ok to use or are we obligated to stick to the chart produced by the state.


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## TiffanyHunts (Nov 2, 2015)

Look at the hunting guidelines or take your local plus minus half hour either way thatshe the same time period.


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Pretty sure the warden is going to use the chart-if you have an issue, it will have to be argued to the judge....


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## Davelobi (Feb 14, 2012)

Tiffany, they are NOT the same. How can sunset be the same many miles east to west? We wouldn't need time zones.



ART said:


> Pretty sure the warden is going to use the chart-if you have an issue, it will have to be argued to the judge....


Then why have a discrepancy in the guide? Sunset is not the same throughout a zone east to west? Why even mention 1/2 hour before and after sunset if it is in-fact set by the chart. Delete the sunset stuff if the chart rules. 

In my earlier reference to Ted Nugent he presented this scenerio (paraphrased)..
Think about this, be honest with yourself.
What happens when the giant buck of a lifetime walks up one minute after legal shooting light (per the state) and you can see well enough for a clean safe ethical kill? Wouldn't that make almost any hunter a poacher? I'm not advocating hunter discretion for shooting hours. I just don't like the black and white discrepancy in the rule book.


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## ART (Jul 7, 2004)

Davelobi said:


> Tiffany, they are NOT the same. How can sunset be the same many miles east to west? We wouldn't need time zones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a question you will have to take up with the dnr.....
The law is a tool to catch violators, and is its use is discretionary....as for 1 minute, I would hope the officer will overlook it-I don't have a watch that is set by the nuclear clock....like my speedometer, I couldn't guarantee my instrument would match theirs....so they let people speed by a couple miles an hour..
10 minutes probably would be a problem..
I still think the officer would use the guide....


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

I think we are nitpicking here. The rule is based on sunset and sunrise as stated. The guide gives you a chart so you can get an accurate time of when that actually is to clear confusion. It is divided up in 6 min intervals across the state because the sun rises and sets at diff times. Do you need more accurate than that?? I think it would be ridiculous to expect an officer to know exactly what sunrise is at any GPS coordinate across the state. Within your 6 min zone you wouldn't be more than +/- 3 min of the exact time going by the guide.


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## Davelobi (Feb 14, 2012)

ART said:


> I would hope the officer will overlook it-I don't have a watch that is set by the nuclear clock


Are you willing to gamble your trophy, equipment, future hunting privileges, and large fines on hope? Hoping the officer understands. Hoping he isn't having a bad day.
I would expect that the law wouldn't require a nuclear clock as necessary to enforce hunting times. The cell phones we carry are pretty accurate as time devices.

DirtySteve, nitpicking can make all the difference in the court of law. The tiniest bit outside the law is prosecutable, no?

I didn't want this to go this way. I'm honestly not nitpicking. The law should be clear and it is not in this case. There are two options listed, a half hour after sunset or an exact time. I just wanted others opinions on the obvious (to me) difference in sunset vs the chart. It's not like I'm going to Lansing with this. Just wondering.

Art, I totally agree with you on an officer being likely to use the chart (if needed) but the reason for this post is to question why the legal time is defined two different ways in our state provided guide. I don't carry the guide afield but did actually download it once as a pdf file from out in the woods on my phone. I try to stay well in the clear of any hunting and fishing laws as to never have to explain.


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

Get your Michigan hunting and fishing rule book PHD then you will know .


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## Brian Berg (Jun 22, 2013)

The DNR chart is pretty accurate as to seeing anyways. There are times I stop before that. If I can't count the points on the rack, I don't shoot. I used to hunt ducks, and it was highly frowned upon by hunters if someone started shooting before the official start time.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

"So Judge, Hear me out here. I read the guide and decided it didn't apply to me, so I shot the deer 5:59 seconds after the guide said to stop. "

How do you think that's going to play?


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Davelobi said:


> I would expect that the law wouldn't require a nuclear clock as necessary to enforce hunting times. The cell phones we carry are pretty accurate as time devices.
> 
> DirtySteve, nitpicking can make all the difference in the court of law. The tiniest bit outside the law is prosecutable, no?


Your cell phone is accurate in telling you the exact time of day. What it isn't accurate at is telling you exactly when sunrise is for the exact spot you are shooting. That is what your guide is for. It can't tell you the exact time for your spot but it can come within 3 mins. If 3 mins isn't close enough for you than I think it is nitpicking.


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## phantom cls (Nov 7, 2008)

i always use the chart, seems to be right on for me!


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

The hunting digest is only a guide refer to the DNRs Wildlife Conservation Orders for definitions. 1/2 hour before or half hour after sunset. There is no chart in the WCO. Your smart phone can give you the correct time plus an app can give you exact sunrise sunset per gps location. I highly doubt you will receive a ticket using that method..


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## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

I don't wear a watch and unless my wife is hunting with me I don't bring a phone either. When I look at my sights and it's getting dark to make an ethical shot I call it and sit in the stand til dark. Where I'm usually hunting the woods are so thick It's usually too dark to shoot a while before the official time anyway.


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## Alaby (Aug 22, 2013)

I turn my handheld gps , check the sunrise, sunset time for where I am sitting, add 30 minutes to that, or subtract for sunrise, and figure I'm good to go. If CO questions me I can show him readout on my gps. Its usually too dark 30 minutes before or after anyway, but it takes time to set up and take down.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> I think we are nitpicking here. The rule is based on sunset and sunrise as stated. The guide gives you a chart so you can get an accurate time of when that actually is to clear confusion. It is divided up in 6 min intervals across the state because the sun rises and sets at diff times. Do you need more accurate than that?? I think it would be ridiculous to expect an officer to know exactly what sunrise is at any GPS coordinate across the state. Within your 6 min zone you wouldn't be more than +/- 3 min of the exact time going by the guide.


This is the best answer.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

This is like arguing which is north. True north or magnetic north?

The WCO is clear that the hunting hours are one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset as *published *in the Hunting And Trapping Guide on page 11 and 12. It doesn't matter whether the sun sets a minute and a half later because you are a few miles west. These rules were determined long ago to make it easy for everyone. 

*Wildlife Conservation Order (Updated 11/14/2016)*
*Chapter II
General Hunting and Trapping Regulations*

2.5 Hunting hours, exceptions; prohibited activities. Sec. 2.5 (1) Except for the trapping of animals and as otherwise specified in this section, the hunting hours shall substantially conform to one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset *and shall be those starting times and ending times published in the Michigan hunting and trapping guide* or in the respective state hunting guide for that animal.


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## Zerowolf (Nov 18, 2016)

1) Use the chart
2) Chart is not perfect... just because it says you CAN shoot doesn't mean you SHOULD. Heavy cloud cover, deep forest, heavy cloud with deep forest... maybe you are in a deep valley or on a tall hill... all different and you should use judgement.

Part of the view from my deer blind is in very thick cedar so what I do is put a piece of orange marking ribbon on a tree 100 or so yards out into a shooting lane. If I cannot clearly see that tape then there is a chance I cannot clearly see a person and I don't shoot in that area. Often 5 to 10 minutes before legal hunting hours are over.

The other side I have open field and I can normally see 10 minutes past legal hours and if there is a full moon I can see WAY past legal.


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## Davelobi (Feb 14, 2012)

Petronious, in your first post you agreed (best answer) with the chart. In your second post you go with the 1/2 hour before/after sunset.

Luv2hunteup and Alaby both get it that the 1/2 hour before/after sunset is easy to determine. 

I'm not by any means trying to stretch my hunting by mere minutes. I mentioned in my original post that I usually quit early anyway. 

The entire intent was to ask about the contradiction in the state provided guide that offers two different options on start/end times. 
It should say...
A) about 1/2 hour before/after sunset, see the chart below for exact times

OR

B) 1/2 hour before/after sunset see chart below for approximate times


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Luv2hunteup said:


> The hunting digest is only a guide refer to the DNRs Wildlife Conservation Orders for definitions. 1/2 hour before or half hour after sunset. There is no chart in the WCO. Your smart phone can give you the correct time plus an app can give you exact sunrise sunset per gps location. I highly doubt you will receive a ticket using that method..


Go to a managed waterfowl unit and try to shoot 2 mins early because your phone app said it is 2 mins earlier than the guide......you most certainly will get a ticket. They tell you what the guide says for that day. They also tell you what time their clock says it is to make sure you are following their time.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

petronius said:


> This is like arguing which is north. True north or magnetic north?
> 
> The WCO is clear that the hunting hours are one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset as *published *in the Hunting And Trapping Guide on page 11 and 12. It doesn't matter whether the sun sets a minute and a half later because you are a few miles west. These rules were determined long ago to make it easy for everyone.
> 
> ...


The DNR officer at my son's hunter safety told everyone that they must follow the shooting times listed in the Hunting Guide. He said he could write tickets for being 1 min off. He made the students calculate times for the different time zones. He spent a lot going over the table.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Davelobi said:


> Petronious, in your first post you agreed (best answer) with the chart. In your second post you go with the 1/2 hour before/after sunset.
> 
> Luv2hunteup and Alaby both get it that the 1/2 hour before/after sunset is easy to determine.
> 
> ...


Legal hunting times are very easy to determine. You don't even have to think, just look it up in the hunting guide.

It seems that there is some confusion on the starting and ending times for hunting when comparing sunrise/sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise and 1/2 hour after sunset. Page 12 of the Hunting And Trapping Guide takes into account the 1/2 hour difference.
Sunrise for Detroit in Time Zone A was 7:37 am. The guide says you can start hunting at 7:07 pm.
Sunset for Detroit in Time Zone A was 5:02 am. The guide says you stop hunting at 5:32 pm.


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## Davelobi (Feb 14, 2012)

petronius said:


> Legal hunting times are very easy to determine. You don't even have to think, just look it up in the hunting guide.
> 
> It seems that there is some confusion on the starting and ending times for hunting when comparing sunrise/sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise and 1/2 hour after sunset. Page 12 of the Hunting And Trapping Guide takes into account the 1/2 hour difference.
> Sunrise for Detroit in Time Zone A was 7:37 am. The guide says you can start hunting at 7:07 pm.
> Sunset for Detroit in Time Zone A was 5:02 am. The guide says you stop hunting at 5:32 pm


They are NOT easy to determine when there is conflicting information on the same page as is in this case. It also has Zero mention of "Detroit" 

What it does say, and I quote, is "For hunt dates not listed in the table, please consult your local newspaper." Guess what is and is not in the local newspaper. Sunrise and sunset is often posted with the weather. The hunting times from the table on page 12 are not listed in most (if any) newspapers.

Again, this is not about the actual start/end times that is being disputed here but the fact that two different options are listed in the guide. I know and trust that most hunters make a good judgment call on when it's getting to dark. This is following the spirit of the law. Laws should however be clear and not leave room for debate or doubt.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Davelobi said:


> They are NOT easy to determine when there is conflicting information on the same page as is in this case. It also has Zero mention of "Detroit"
> 
> What it does say, and I quote, is "For hunt dates not listed in the table, please consult your local newspaper." Guess what is and is not in the local newspaper. Sunrise and sunset is often posted with the weather. The hunting times from the table on page 12 are not listed in most (if any) newspapers.
> 
> Again, this is not about the actual start/end times that is being disputed here but the fact that two different options are listed in the guide. I know and trust that most hunters make a good judgment call on when it's getting to dark. This is following the spirit of the law. Laws should however be clear and not leave room for debate or doubt.


I will try to make this as easy as I can.
First of all, anyone in Michigan who had basic geography in school should know where Detroit is, especially someone who lives in South East Michigan.

Second, two different options are not listed in the guide. It is very clear when hunting times start and end. It is in the chart. The chart lists the times for Hunting-Hour Time Zone A with the extra 1/2 hour included. You do not see that on page 12?

The sunrise and sunset times are often listed in the local paper, but that was only a suggestion. You can find the times online. For times in Hunting-Hour Time Zone B, locate a city in the eastern most part of that hunting time zone and add 6 minutes plus 30 minutes. For hunting time zone C, add 12 minutes plus 30 minutes. For hunting time zone D, add 18 minutes plus 30 minutes. For those areas in the Central Standard Time zone, subtract 1 hour. 

Sunset/sunrise times are not the same as hunting times. There is a 1/2 hour difference between them. The hunting guide takes that into account.


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## Davelobi (Feb 14, 2012)

petronius said:


> I will try to make this as easy as I can.
> First of all, anyone in Michigan who had basic geography in school should know where Detroit is, especially someone who lives in South East Michigan.
> 
> Second, two different options are not listed in the guide. It is very clear when hunting times start and end. It is in the chart. The chart lists the times for Hunting-Hour Time Zone A with the extra 1/2 hour included. You do not see that on page 12?
> ...


Wow, you contradict yourself once again. I now understand why you have the quote _"Never let down. Never let up. Never forget."_ under your posts. You simply like to argue, right or wrong and even flip flop within the same thread. In your post #16 in this thread you went with the chart as gospel. In your post, #17 in this thread you went with the half hour before and half hour after sunset as the right answer. Now in post #24 you are back on the chart soapbox and state that the newspaper (as referenced on the same page as the chart in the handbook) is just a suggestion. There are no "suggested" laws, only enforcable ones. Your demeaning banter about not knowing the location of Detroit is completely irreverent. There is no hunting in Detroit and the city name is not mentioned anywhere on the pages listing the hunting hours. 
I apologize to the rest of you for feeding this internet troll. I'll not respond to any more of his posts.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Davelobi said:


> Wow, you contradict yourself once again. I now understand why you have the quote _"Never let down. Never let up. Never forget."_ under your posts. You simply like to argue, right or wrong and even flip flop within the same thread. In your post #16 in this thread you went with the chart as gospel. In your post, #17 in this thread you went with the half hour before and half hour after sunset as the right answer. Now in post #24 you are back on the chart soapbox and state that the newspaper (as referenced on the same page as the chart in the handbook) is just a suggestion. There are no "suggested" laws, only enforcable ones. Your demeaning banter about not knowing the location of Detroit is completely irreverent. There is no hunting in Detroit and the city name is not mentioned anywhere on the pages listing the hunting hours.
> I apologize to the rest of you for feeding this internet troll. I'll not respond to any more of his posts.


You argue too much over petty things. My frustration level has reached its peak.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Davelobi said:


> Wow, you contradict yourself once again. I now understand why you have the quote _"Never let down. Never let up. Never forget."_ under your posts. You simply like to argue, right or wrong and even flip flop within the same thread. In your post #16 in this thread you went with the chart as gospel. In your post, #17 in this thread you went with the half hour before and half hour after sunset as the right answer. Now in post #24 you are back on the chart soapbox and state that the newspaper (as referenced on the same page as the chart in the handbook) is just a suggestion. There are no "suggested" laws, only enforcable ones. Your demeaning banter about not knowing the location of Detroit is completely irreverent. There is no hunting in Detroit and the city name is not mentioned anywhere on the pages listing the hunting hours.
> I apologize to the rest of you for feeding this internet troll. I'll not respond to any more of his posts.


I dont know where you came up with the fact that Petronius changed his answered in post #17. He clearly posted what is stated in the WCO and that is you must refer to the table, which is enforceable.


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

WOW what is so dam hard about this the GIUDE HAS BOTH A MAP AND TIME TABLE the map even shows what counties need to adjust their time!!!!!!!!!!!:banghead3:banghead3 I live in Lenawee county today I could start at7:14 A.M. & stop at 5:38P.M. If I decide to shoot earlier or later then that time by the LAW a C.O. could write me a ticket !! Now will a C.O. write a ticket for 1 min over I highly doubt it but you start getting in the 10 MIN plus range more then likely your getting a ticket . Kind of like a speed limit sign they can write tickets for 1 mile over but they would get writers cramp by end of shift most cops I know give 5 mph leeway but write on the 6mph over !! I still can't believe we've got 2 pages on this subject and deer season isn't even over yet people must be tagged out or not seeing deer .


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## Jimw (Jul 8, 2009)

DirtySteve said:


> Go to a managed waterfowl unit and try to shoot 2 mins early because your phone app said it is 2 mins earlier than the guide......you most certainly will get a ticket. They tell you what the guide says for that day. They also tell you what time their clock says it is to make sure you are following their time.


Probably won't get a ticket, but most certainly will get bitched about in the msf Waterfowl forum.lol


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

MossyHorns said:


> I dont know where you came up with the fact that Petronius changed his answered in post #17. He clearly posted what is stated in the WCO and that is you must refer to the table, which is enforceable.





miruss said:


> WOW what is so dam hard about this the GIUDE HAS BOTH A MAP AND TIME TABLE the map even shows what counties need to adjust their time!!!!!!!!!!!:banghead3:banghead3 I live in Lenawee county today I could start at7:14 A.M. & stop at 5:38P.M. If I decide to shoot earlier or later then that time by the LAW a C.O. could write me a ticket !! Now will a C.O. write a ticket for 1 min over I highly doubt it but you start getting in the 10 MIN plus range more then likely your getting a ticket . Kind of like a speed limit sign they can write tickets for 1 mile over but they would get writers cramp by end of shift most cops I know give 5 mph leeway but write on the 6mph over !! I still can't believe we've got 2 pages on this subject and deer season isn't even over yet people must be tagged out or not seeing deer .


Thanks, I feel vindicated. The ability to think and comprehend is lost on some people.


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

Gamekeeper said:


> "So Judge, Hear me out here. I read the guide and decided it didn't apply to me, so I shot the deer 5:59 seconds after the guide said to stop. "
> 
> How do you think that's going to play?


Guilty as charged.lol


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Yeah, some people just have a need to nit pick everything.

It's outrageously hard to carry part of the guide with you, and set the alarm on your phone.

I've been cutting them out and laminating them with packing tape for years. Stick it in my bag in August, and throw it out next August. Sometimes I do 3-4 of them. One in deer back pack, predator backpack, wader pocket, and blind bag. Of course having it on your phone works too.

It's not some grand conspiracy perpetrated by anti hunting moles sneaking around the DNR. It's an ease of use thing.
When I hunt west Kansas, I am at the western edge of the Central time zone. The difference in time is really obvious.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

Gamekeeper said:


> Yeah, some people just have a need to nit pick everything.
> 
> It's outrageously hard to carry part of the guide with you, and set the alarm on your phone.
> 
> ...


I take a picture of the table with my phone that way I can look it up anytime. I also have a current pdf version of the Hunting Digest stored on my phone.


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## Captain of the 4-C's (Sep 11, 2003)

Follow the table. In north central oakland county, I do wish the morning time was about 3 minutes later than stated and the evening shifted by the same 3 minutes. Yes, I do try to follow my watch/phone.


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