# Pistol Grip Shotgun - Home Defense



## BackStrap (Sep 7, 2001)

Does anyone have a suggestion on a good setup for a pistol grip (with or without a folding stock) shotgun? I'm not looking for anything top-of-the-line, but something reasonable and functional. This would be primarily for home defense. 

I am looking into replacing my Kimber .45. I just don't shoot it and my wife would be a whole lot more accurate with a 12ga if there was ever a need to use it.

Please give any ideas or suggestions.

Thanks.


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## enfield (Apr 13, 2003)

I would suggest you have your wife actually shoot a pistol-gripped 12 gauge before buying one. They're kind of hard on the hand.


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## roger23 (Jan 14, 2001)

It might be ok for a 20 Ga bird shot .


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## roger23 (Jan 14, 2001)

We have a Lady Smith with .38 spcl bird shot in it . It would sure scare the hell out of someone because they would not know what the next round would be


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

enfield said:


> I would suggest you have your wife actually shoot a pistol-gripped 12 gauge before buying one. They're kind of hard on the hand.



I agree.....with healthy loads, they are tough on a persons wrist. Plus, even though your throwing a pattern, at home defense ranges, it is still pretty tight and a pistol grip shotgun is not as easy to hit with as a shoulder fired weapon would be. Both offer great intimidation! The pistol grip version will be a little handier in confined spaces, no doubt. I'd consider putting a laser sight on the pistol grip gun, have one on my 1911 and it is sweet, very easy to hit with. A folding stock is also an option, but most are no fun to shoot using the stock because most have a hard buttplate of very little recoil pad.

If you are set on a Pistol grip, consider the 20 gauge. A load of #4 buck will make quick work of an intruder and there are lighter loads that will still work if overpenatration is a concern in your situation. 
There are reduced recoil laods available for the 12 as well and might be a viable option. 
Mossberg 500's and Remington 870's are the two best bets really though you could add the Winchester 1300 to that list. There are a ton of aftermarket parts for these guns to make them into anything from a basic home defense gun to a fully decked out military assualt shotgun....sights, triggers, stocks, forearms, etc. Mossberg has a handfull of factory guns marketed just for defense as well. My 870 with an old 20" smooth bore slug barrel works just fine (not that I've ever had to put it into action though.....) There are a ton of these guns in basic form on the used market at very good prices and you can add the accesories you want to make it fit your needs.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

Even more important then the gun would be.

1. Prevention
2. Planning
3. Training

Even more effecient then a gun is a dog.

Pistol grip shotguns does not normally translate into home defense...home defense means your wife brings the kids to her room (if applicable), calls 911 to report an intruder, anounces she has a gun, taking cover in the bedroom.....then putting big holes in somebody that still enters.

She will be even more accurate with a full stock, 18 inch barrel and tactical buckshot.


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## BackStrap (Sep 7, 2001)

Thank you for all of the responses. I don't expect that she will ever need a home defense weapon, but I just want something available. I want the pistol grip to make it easier to tuck away somewhere. The 20ga idea is a good one, I just assumed it would be easier to find a short barrel 12ga.


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

I believe the buttstocks are the same on most guns for 12 or 20 ga? On the Rem 870 it is just one bolt holding the buttstock to the receiver.

You are right though - 18" 20 ga bbls are not that common.

Speedfeed and others make shorter LOP stocks for tactical use - that helps in storage and to maneuver thru doorframes and stairwells.


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## roger23 (Jan 14, 2001)

jmoser said:


> I believe the buttstocks are the same on most guns for 12 or 20 ga? On the Rem 870 it is just one bolt holding the buttstock to the receiver.
> 
> You are right though - 18" 20 ga bbls are not that common.
> 
> Speedfeed and others make shorter LOP stocks for tactical use - that helps in storage and to maneuver thru doorframes and stairwells.


 Just cut one down if thats all you are going to use it for . just remember to stay legal. used a old Fox side by side cut off just in front of the forearm and stock cut off just behind the grip kicked like hell but did the job, did have to worry about legal then


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## BackStrap (Sep 7, 2001)

Is it safe to cut a barrel down? Any other opinions? What are the drawbacks? Also, what is the shortest barrel that is legal...18"?

Thanks.


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## roger23 (Jan 14, 2001)

Idon't know if this law or not
shotgun
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
A Sawed-off double-barreled 12 gauge shotgunA sawed-off shotgun (U.S.) or sawn-off shotgun (UK) is a type of shotgun with a shorter gun barrel and often a shorter or deleted stock, compared to a standard shotgun. The sawed-off shotgun has a larger spread and a more limited range, but it has about the same destructive power. Its reduced size makes it easier to conceal. Such a powerful and compact weapon is especially suitable for nefarious purposes, such as armed robbery. To make shotguns less concealable, many jurisdictions have a minimum legal length for shotgun barrels and most gun makers do not offer undersized shotguns to the public. As its name implies, the sawed-off shotgun is usually produced by illegal home-made modification of a standard shotgun.

Contents [hide]
1 Legal issues 
2 Police and military use 
3 Barrel length and shot spread 
4 Popular culture 
5 See also 
6 External links 



[edit]
Legal issues
The term most genuinely applies to illegal weapons that were created by literally sawing off a regular shotgun's barrel. Sawing off has the most dramatic effect when applied to double-barreled shotguns or single-shot shotguns. Pump or semiautomatic shotguns have a tube magazine attached to the underside of the barrel which limits the minimum barrel length to the length of the magazine tube (although this too can be shortened, with a corresponding loss in magazine capacity). Shotguns using a box magazine do not lose capacity when sawed off, but they are far less common than those with tubular magazines. Shotguns manufactured with barrels under the legal minimum length, while not literally "sawed-off" shotguns, are usually regarded the same as shotguns that were made illegal through modification.

In the United States, it is illegal for a private citizen to possess a sawed-off shotgun (a barrel length less than 18 in. or 46 cm and an overall length less than 26 inches) without a tax-stamped permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, which requires an extensive background check and a $200 fee for every transfer. A new tax stamp must be purchased with every transfer of the short-barrelled shotgun, and transfers must be made through a Class III Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) dealer. (See National Firearms Act.)

Additional restrictions may apply in many other jurisdictions. State and local laws may entirely prohibit civilian possession of short-barrelled shotguns. (These restrictions do not apply to military and police departments.) In most states, a shotgun less than a certain length is legally classed as a pistol, and requires a pistol licence (which is much more difficult to obtain than a basic shotgun license), plus a registration. The act of sawing off the gun would constitute unlawful manufacture of a pistol.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Mossberg Mariner. Have one at home, one at the shop.


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## roger23 (Jan 14, 2001)

Get you some of these at the surplus store they also baned flechette rounds in mortors and rockets 










Sabot can also describe an arrow-like shape of material that fits in a standard shell. One particularly frightening sabot-style payload is the flechette. A flechette round contains hundreds of small, needle- or razor-like projectiles designed to penetrate armor and inflict painful wounds. They are banned by the Geneva Convention but do still see use in combat and counter-terrorism from time to time.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

No one never expects to have to defend thesmselves in their home, but everybody should be ready to. 

Preperation and planning, having a game plan and not trying to decide what to do when she hears glass break or footsteps in the kitchen.

Even little things like having a cell phone next to the bed at night. It is not uncommon for a criminal to cut a phone line prior to entry.

An alarm system..............and I know I already said it, but I have spoke with many criminals over the years and I still think the best defense has fur, teeth and loves his or their family. 

We have four dogs, combined weight of just under 500 pounds. If they make it past them, my wife is an excellent shot and I'm sure eventually I'll wake up. 

As for home defense........a high capacity, semi-auto pistol, no larger then a 9mm, loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs........toss in a couple of spare magazines, then practice. 

Seriously though, when people think of home defense they think gun, and truthfully I think that should be the last option. More important is learning and living to minimize threats......lighting, a secure perimeter, an alarm system and yes a dog, all are generally a better means of protection then a gun.

UNLESS the gun owner is trained, trained and trained and has practiced and practiced and practiced, and is ready to use a gun against another person......and is smart about owning a gun.........dosn't get much worse then coming home and getting shot with your own gun:sad:


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## chamookman (Sep 1, 2003)

Well put, except I disagree with Your choise of Calibers. The .45 ACP is way ahead of the 9mm. My opinion ofcourse. Pistol gripped shottys require alot of pratice also, and can be QUITE brutal to shoot. That said tho, I did take a older Mossburg mod.500 - lopped the barrel off at 18 1/2" and added a Pachmyer pistol grip. This stays near Me at home loaded with 3" T shot, just incase I can't find My 1911 :yikes: . Bob


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

45 ACP is way ahead of the 9mm

anybody want to stand in front of my 9mm................ caliber is nill compared to shot placement


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## roger23 (Jan 14, 2001)

It is easy to talk about shooting someone and easy to do . and to protect our family we all maybe able to do it .I agree with 2PAWS you should do anything you can to keep from having to kill someone because it is something you will have to live with the rest of your life many can live with it some can not.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

I can live with it.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

2PawsRiver said:


> No one never expects to have to defend thesmselves in their home, but everybody should be ready to.
> 
> Preperation and planning, having a game plan and not trying to decide what to do when she hears glass break or footsteps in the kitchen.
> 
> ...


 maybe try a squirt gun then.


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## roger23 (Jan 14, 2001)

deputy said:


> 45 ACP is way ahead of the 9mm
> 
> anybody want to stand in front of my 9mm................ caliber is nill compared to shot placement


I don't want to stand in front of a 25 auto .We were trainer by a vet of Korea & WWII he felt the same take their eyes and no matter what drugs they are on if they can't see you they cant shoot you. 9 or 15 .00 buck works just fine . Personally if I were having to use ball ammo I would take the 45 ACP


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## enfield (Apr 13, 2003)

I use an AR carbine in 5.56 as my primary home defense weapon. I used to keep a short 12 gauge pump with #1 buck as primary, but I now believe the AR with commercial soft-point ammo is superior to the shotgun for this purpose, i.e. better control of who/what is being shot and less risk of wall penetration.

This doesn't mean that the Ithaca Police Special is locked up in the safe.

Oh, I also have 2 Jack Russell Terriers in the house. They let me know when the neighbor across the street goes to the mailbox!!


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

> Well put, except I disagree with Your choise of Calibers. The .45 ACP is way ahead of the 9mm.


I agree and disagree.......close range and as long as somebody has not powdered down the 45, I like the balistics. I do however like the multishot control of a 9mm, and for the average shooter, to include most female shooters the ability to accurately place quick, multi-shots, I just favor a 9mm, or even a good .380. My wife is real good with a 9mm, shooting +p+p, and the balistics are comparable to a fairly good .40.

As for


> oh boy hope you never have to use one


.....of course I hope I don't have to use one.....anybody that looks forward to shooting somebody has issues............just to clarify, they would not be good issues....................and I have no idea what your point is..............would help if during the time you have been a member of this site if you updated your profile.


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## enfield (Apr 13, 2003)

roger23 said:


> take their eyes and no matter what drugs they are on if they can't see you they cant shoot you.


To heck with their eyes -- I want the central nervous system and major blood vessels. I might miss a head shot so I'll go for center mass. I'll shoot for effect rather than style.


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## enfield (Apr 13, 2003)

Since it was brought up (although it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread), I wouldn't recommend .380 for anyone, including women. Not enough penetration unless the right ammo is used (and there's only 1 right load), the smaller .380 pistols are generally blowback and are hard for a woman or someone with limited hand strength or arthritis to operate, and the larger ones are as large as a 9mm/40/45, just with less power. .380's make good backup pistols in some situations, but that's about all they're good for.


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## FIJI (May 15, 2003)

shoot "regular" rounds of whatever caliber is your choice at...

1) some drywall
2) a couple of 2 x 4s


then do the same with some Glaziers

you'll be surprised.

you not only have to worry about the perp....but whatever (or WHOever) is behind him in the next room (you, your wife and kids, the dog...)

I've seen in the ER what Glaziers do to the human body. Docs get the Xray results and .........walk away. 
:SHOCKED:


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

To each their own, I just can't see a long gun as a home defense weapon. I see many advantages with a handgun and very few with a long gun. Actually I think the disadvantage of a long gun by far outwiegh any advantages..............not knocking anybody, just my (hate to use the word) opinion.


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## tstu2 (Apr 5, 2005)

I was told at both a hunter's safety and a pistol safety class that the best home defense gun would be a .410 pump.

The penitration through dry wall is minimal - keeping kids in bedroom safe.
Easy to learn to load.
Minimal recoil for smaller people.
The knock-down power is sufficient enough.
Most important - the sound of any pump action cycling a shell into a chamber is a very recognizable sound. Scaring most away just from the sound of the action.


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## Ron L (Nov 12, 2000)

2 Paws, some people can control a long gun easier than a handgun in a stressful situation. To me, that's the advantage.

I have a shotty and a 9mm in my room, just in case things should ever go south. The topic of the thread was shotguns, so let me add my (ahem) opinion as well. 

At more typical ranges, your shotgun may not pattern inside your home. So, given the lack of dispersement, you could be using a rifle in the home, however, I'm kinda thinking bird shot will not penetrate walls as much as one of my rifle rounds.

Back to shotguns. Given that the weapon will be used in a high stress situation, practice is key. BA/UU/R. Here's where my personal opinion really comes in. Since length is a consideration, buy her a youth 870 in 20 gauge. Take her trap shooting, skeet shooting and sporting clays. Let her burn through ammo. Then, if defecation ever hits the air movement device, she's not only familiar with the weapon, she's comfortable with it.

YMMV.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

To each their own, I just can't see a long gun as a home defense weapon. I see many advantages with a handgun and very few with a long gun. Actually I think the disadvantage of a long gun by far outwiegh any advantages..............not knocking anybody, just my (hate to use the word) opinion.


bah we can debate that one day in and out! after upteen years of using an m-4 in and around homes and teaching and training in it use iam all over an m-4 as my home gun.

Enfield, the 380 is still a good choice a few years ago in a gunshop robbery the 380 round fired by the perp went through a sythtic mossberg shotgun stock through the paneling through the block wall.......... it was ball ammo

having done actuall home shooting test like as in fired a lot of different calibers into the homes and walls and the like you would all be suprised!
45 9mm etc...... yeah i run all calibers a personal favorite 9mm with +p+ win ranger 127 grain the ablity to get hits while under stress while moving rapidly off the x and getting hits is more important than caliber i just had a guy in class that after boasting for a good part of the day failed to do it with his commander sized 45 and personal defense ammo! keeping hits on a 6-8 cirlce while moving and under stress standing on a range shooting while standing there and going ohh look how nice and tight! i love those people in my classes! when they sit there and go huhhh! 

ummmmm off to bed long day tomorrow
class for a local srt team to teach

get some real training in real tactics and and then see how things stake up


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

oops


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:











As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, &#8220;Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness&#8221; by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .



Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers&#8212;pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1) 
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617) 
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP (53961)
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA) 
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP (53966)
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc&#8230

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers--pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios. Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferrably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performanc


the pics of the 9m +p+ 127 grain offer a wound profile to that of the 40/45

as far as the bs of the pump action sound! LOl wheniwas doing a paper on the topic of armed homeowners the badguys i interviewed laughed at that! they stated that it allowed them to know the location of the homeowner and that they were armed and that they could keep them at bay in there own home while others in there crew could run the house while one stood guard over the homeowners postion!


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## chamookman (Sep 1, 2003)

Very informative ! Bob


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## enfield (Apr 13, 2003)

> Enfield, the 380 is still a good choice a few years ago in a gunshop robbery the 380 round fired by the perp went through a sythtic mossberg shotgun stock through the paneling through the block wall.......... it was ball ammo


That's the one adequate loading in .380 - Full metal jacket. You won't find good .380 FMJ (Like Remington Express or Winchester Super-X) on the shelf anywhere -- you have to order it.



> I'm kinda thinking bird shot will not penetrate walls as much as one of my rifle rounds.


True, and it also won't penetrate the bad guy like a rifle round, a pistol round or buckshot. Birdshot makes a large, nasty, SHALLOW wound. It won't reach the central nervous system and probably won't stop a determined attacker, or one on drugs. If I had many choices, the shotgun loaded with birdshot would be the last gun I'd pick up to defend myself. I'd pick up a .22LR first.

If you're not shooting to stop an attacker, you shouldn't be shooting at all.

A .410 shotgun would be fine if you can hit things with it. But not with birdshot (too little penetration) or slugs (too much penetration). Buckshot is just right, and smaller than 00 if you can find it.


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