# Breaking and Entering



## Bog Boy (Nov 9, 2009)

Found out this week that someone had a disagreement with the dead bolt in the door to my cabin. They knocked it clean out (along with the door knob) and then proceeded to help themselves. looking for suggestions on what other folks do? Lock it up? Leave it open?


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

I lock our place up north. But NEVER leave guns or things of value there. 

Someone breaks in there is not much of value in the home to take.
20 year old microwave. 10+ year old 19" TV. Cheap 10+ year old stereo.
No computers, no guns, some hand tools but no power tools. Just nothing in my place that cant easly be replaced!!!
Do have a boat and ATV, we keep them along with the entire place well insured!!!

There was a guy on another thread who was just broken into along with others. guy named Justin???


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Michigan General Hunting heading 
"This Sucks thread by Justin.


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## Big Reds (Oct 14, 2007)

Get those fake security cameras and mount a few on the place. Most come with security signs as well, if not purchase a few. Also helps the have an interior light on a timer.
Also leave the exterior entry lights on with a photo cell unit that screws into the socket between the light bulb and fixture socket.

Sucks all the way around.


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## Wendy (Oct 6, 2008)

If you don't lock it, there is no proof of B & E, so the insurance co will not cover any theft or damage etc. Heck, nowadays they may steal your copper wire/pipes, so definatly lock it!


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

Wendy said:


> If you don't lock it, there is no proof of B & E, so the insurance co will not cover any theft or damage etc. Heck, nowadays they may steal your copper wire/pipes, so definatly lock it!


Great advice!!!


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

MEL said:


> Michigan General Hunting heading
> "This Sucks thread by Justin.


Hey Mel, Same cabin. OP is my brother.:lol: The point he is asking is... Is it worth the damage to the door or windows when the cabin is empty?


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## Bog Boy (Nov 9, 2009)

Wendy said:


> If you don't lock it, there is no proof of B & E, so the insurance co will not cover any theft or damage etc. Heck, nowadays they may steal your copper wire/pipes, so definatly lock it!


X2! Never thought of that.


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## Bog Boy (Nov 9, 2009)

I've always locked it up in the past. I, like Justin, don't keep anything there that I couldn't live without or that has a great deal of sentimental value - other than the cabin itself. We spent every weekend for a whole summer building it - It's almost like my 3rd child (lol).

So I guess the next question that I have is how to batten down the hatches so to speak. I almost hate to add additional locks or anything for fear of greater amounts of structural damage to the door or frame or even the wall depending on how it is reinforced. Anyone have any design ideas?

I am thinking about attempting to put up some type of camera as well.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

Steel Door with Steel Door Frame. Well Secured to the wood structure is a heck of a chore to break through. I can also make custom window protection that prevents someone from breaking a window out to gain entry.


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

Time to get back to pulleys, rope and an old SG..........


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## PikeLaker (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm in a remote area in the UP and have never had any problems. In fact, I once forgot to lock the shed, came back three months later and the shed door was blowing in the breeze (had been for 3 months) and not a thing was missing!

1) Like others have said, nothing of any real value is left at the cabin. 13' TV, *OLD* power tools, etc.

2) I also leave all the curtain/shades/blinds open so everybody can see that there is nothing of value to steal.


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## Greenbush future (Sep 8, 2005)

Locks are made to keep honest people from entering. Dishonest people will tear the entire door off if they want in. While a steel door is great, all a crook see's is another reason to break it down. Must really be something good in there if they have a steel door.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I've posted suggestions several times in the past. as the editor of a northern county weekly I know quite a bit about what keeps people from breaking into places...

Lock it, as said to make sure your insurance will cover you, but don't spend any money. Lotsa locks or state of the art locks only makes thieves more determined to get in, thinking you MUST have valuable stuff in there. 

DON'T LEAVE ANYTHING OF ANY VALUE AT ALL. EVER. ESPECIALLY SNOWMOBILES, ATVS, AND TOOLS...

Drawing blinds and otherwise making it difficult to see inside is a billboard to thieves that you're not there...so is an unplowed driveway. 

If you can't get up there when there's snow on the ground at different times of the season, get someone, anyone, to plow it once in a while for you and make your driveway look inhabited...showing up at different times, even if it's only for a night, helps...and don't set a schedule of any kind. 

Make sure you're insured, with full fire insurance. You never know what an upset junkie is going to do when he realizes he broke in and you don't have anything have value. 

Best of all, find someone in the area who lives there fulltime who will keep an eye on it for you and occasionally visit to give it that "lived" in look.


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## Bog Boy (Nov 9, 2009)

Thanks for the info and suggestions. I was torn between trying to turn the place into another Fort Knox and just leaving the door open. Think I'll just try to patch up the door the best I can, replace the knob and lock, and call it good


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## Rainman68 (Apr 29, 2011)

Linda G. said:


> I've posted suggestions several times in the past. as the editor of a northern county weekly I know quite a bit about what keeps people from breaking into places...
> 
> Lock it, as said to make sure your insurance will cover you, but don't spend any money. Lotsa locks or state of the art locks only makes thieves more determined to get in, thinking you MUST have valuable stuff in there.
> 
> ...


Drawing blinds also leads thieves to believe you are hiding something. Let them look in and see there is nothing of value to steal. Instead of them breaking in and getting mad because you don't have anything then trashing the place.


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## beats workin (Dec 30, 2009)

if they want to get in they will one way or another, you can just make it hard or at least look hard! apart from a steel door add a cage door some simple angle iron and heavy mesh welded together may be inexpensive but looks heavy duty, same for the windows, this might be a bit overkill especially if this is the first accurance, but more than likely they will come back hoping that there will be more, not to mention the damage they do each time (if it continues) IMO i would at least make it look inpenatrable, just me though, especially if no one is around for long periods of time, good luck


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

Just a little price info

4x8 sheet of grate steel costs about 70 bucks 

2x2 angle iron costs about 5 bucks a foot.

Hinges are about 8 bucks a pair. 

So it really depends on how big and how many windows there are.


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## tjs (Jan 8, 2012)

Excellent bit of wisdom. If no sign of visible damage is noted, then the offense is trespassing. Just a lot easier to make a report if the damage is visible. Easier to obtain insurance repair. Some people leave a curtain open so the inside is within view of potential intruders. Makes 'em think twice about whether it's worth the potential trouble.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

tjs said:


> Excellent bit of wisdom. If no sign of visible damage is noted, then the offense is trespassing. Just a lot easier to make a report if the damage is visible. Easier to obtain insurance repair. Some people leave a curtain open so the inside is within view of potential intruders. Makes 'em think twice about whether it's worth the potential trouble.


Wrong, if the premises is entered by an unwanted person it is breaking and entering on what level just depends on other circumstances. 

Trespassing is entering private property. But once a building is entered it is B&E


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## slowpoke (Jan 30, 2001)

A friend was just telling me about a 110 volt motion detector light with a camera built in that has a SD card, every time the camera detects motion it take a 30 sec. Also you can't tell it from a regular motion light. Price was around $100. I will be looking into them for myself. Might help catching some of these dirt bags. Here is one on ebay. $139 + shipping.
Item number 250896926226


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## Greenbush future (Sep 8, 2005)

Along with the idea's already posted, I would guess that functioning real camera's in strategic location(s) would be quite helpful in catching these jerks. Have real-time feeds which are in many modern systems, I have this on a rental home. There is your proof for the cops too.

I would bet a locked secure gate would keep out a huge chunk of the crooks, not all, but many. Gates just seem logical in that if crooks have to walk a ways to try to break in, most wont? anyone have any experience with using them?


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## B.Chunks (Dec 3, 2011)

Greenbush future said:


> Along with the idea's already posted, I would guess that functioning real camera's in strategic location(s) would be quite helpful in catching these jerks. Have real-time feeds which are in many modern systems, I have this on a rental home. There is your proof for the cops too.
> 
> I would bet a locked secure gate would keep out a huge chunk of the crooks, not all, but many. Gates just seem logical in that if crooks have to walk a ways to try to break in, most wont? anyone have any experience with using them?


 My father in law tried the gate route. One time they cut the lock or chain and the next time they just took it off the hinges. Best idea IMHO is to leave all the shades open and make the place look as empty as possible. A camera whether real or not, in a high inaccessible spot, is definitely a good idea.


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## tjs (Jan 8, 2012)

bigcountrysg said:


> Wrong, if the premises is entered by an unwanted person it is breaking and entering on what level just depends on other circumstances.
> 
> Trespassing is entering private property. But once a building is entered it is B&E



Yikes! Starting out with such a confrontational word makes it seem as if we're at the bench. Seems as though you have significant legal expertise. You certainly have a lot of posts. My point was simply that the path to a successful insurance experience is greased by the straightforwardness of the incident report. If there is no evidence of forced entry, things might be a bit stickier, even though a charge of B&E can be made without damage being evident. That's all. If I arrive home to find someone asleep in a chair, but there has been no forced entry (say I left the door unlocked), and there was no evidence of intent to commit a felony, larceny or assault, the responding official _might _write it up as home invasion, but I'd doubt many prosecutors would file charges as a felony. 

Anyway, sorry to have raised your hackles. Enjoy the out-of-doors. It's a great place to live.


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## Magnet (Mar 2, 2001)

I always leave the curtains open and the front door is basically a big window too. It's locked, but only with the door knob lock. Never had any problems.

On a side note..... I've always wondered why entry doors open to the inside of a building. They would be alot harder to kick in if they opened outward.


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## tjs (Jan 8, 2012)

Magnet said:


> I always leave the curtains open and the front door is basically a big window too. It's locked, but only with the door knob lock. Never had any problems.
> 
> On a side note..... I've always wondered why entry doors open to the inside of a building. They would be alot harder to kick in if they opened outward.


Hey, Magnet. Dad was a builder way back when. He said the hinge thing determined the in-swing design. Makes sense. As a commercial building owner, I know the reason for outswinging doors in that application - easier egress. That's one of the logical (to me) bldg regs. 

Actually, I have just been reading and trying to get a firm sense of what folks are using for security. I am sensing an increasingly brazen type and number of intruders. I've been a victim. My son recently has been broken into. My security system is exterior cameras which, incidentally, work. I do believe that there may have been times when their presence may have dissuaded a potential intruder. Nevertheless, I am re-evaluating security, but don't want to get "crazy" about it. I lean toward the ear-piercing, externally mounted alarm that is not monitored. I really don't have an interest in catching the creeps, just keeping them out. 

I hope there are some thoughtful suggestions here. So many people of so many walks. 

tjs


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

If it's up north make sure it can withstand long periods of extreme cold. 

And if it's of any value at all I wouldn't post it anywhere it could be seen from the ground or from a vehicle-they'll steal that, too. 

Today learned of a number of break ins right in my own neighborhood...all seasonal homes, all which had that "billboard"...the unplowed driveway.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

tjs said:


> Yikes! Starting out with such a confrontational word makes it seem as if we're at the bench. Seems as though you have significant legal expertise. You certainly have a lot of posts. My point was simply that the path to a successful insurance experience is greased by the straightforwardness of the incident report. If there is no evidence of forced entry, things might be a bit stickier, even though a charge of B&E can be made without damage being evident. That's all. If I arrive home to find someone asleep in a chair, but there has been no forced entry (say I left the door unlocked), and there was no evidence of intent to commit a felony, larceny or assault, the responding official _might _write it up as home invasion, but I'd doubt many prosecutors would file charges as a felony.
> 
> Anyway, sorry to have raised your hackles. Enjoy the out-of-doors. It's a great place to live.


Don't be so sensitive. The info bigcountrysg gave was correct.


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## tjs (Jan 8, 2012)

Petronius,

Not sensitive. Just trying to figure out the players. Sort of fun, actually. The web is an interesting place. Thanks. 

tjs


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## tjs (Jan 8, 2012)

Linda G. said:


> If it's up north make sure it can withstand long periods of extreme cold.
> 
> And if it's of any value at all I wouldn't post it anywhere it could be seen from the ground or from a vehicle-they'll steal that, too.
> 
> Today learned of a number of break ins right in my own neighborhood...all seasonal homes, all which had that "billboard"...the unplowed driveway.



Linda G.,

Thanks. Hadn't thought of checking specs. I'll add that to the list.

tjs


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## jatc (Oct 24, 2008)

Just something to think about before a guy goes out and drops thousands on a steel security door and wired security glass to make the place "impenatrable". This may look intimidating, but think about the actual wall contsruction of 90% of the buildings in MI. You normally have 1/2" drywall over wood studs that are sheathed on the outside with 1/2" OSB and covered with vinyl siding.

If I want to get into a home that has a good steel door, I won't even mess around with the door itself because it is way too much work. I can take the claws of my 22 ounce framing hammer and rip off a chunk of siding and about five whacks on the OSB gives me a handhold to rip off a good size chunk, usually the board is nailed on with 8D nails that pull very easily. A couple of swift kicks on the drywall and I'm in. Takes about 45 seconds to accomplish. If I'm really lazy, I can use a cordless sawzall instead of the hammer.......

Not saying that a steel door is a waste of money, but don't think your place is secure just because you paid $1500 to a contractor to install one. Being a builder, I've actually talked myself out of a few door jobs just because I couldn't in good conscience take advantage of someone who has no clue about building construction thinking a steel door makes their place into Fort Knox.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

jatc said:


> Just something to think about before a guy goes out and drops thousands on a steel security door and wired security glass to make the place "impenatrable". This may look intimidating, but think about the actual wall contsruction of 90% of the buildings in MI. You normally have 1/2" drywall over wood studs that are sheathed on the outside with 1/2" OSB and covered with vinyl siding.
> 
> If I want to get into a home that has a good steel door, I won't even mess around with the door itself because it is way too much work. I can take the claws of my 22 ounce framing hammer and rip off a chunk of siding and about five whacks on the OSB gives me a handhold to rip off a good size chunk, usually the board is nailed on with 8D nails that pull very easily. A couple of swift kicks on the drywall and I'm in. Takes about 45 seconds to accomplish. If I'm really lazy, I can use a cordless sawzall instead of the hammer.......
> 
> Not saying that a steel door is a waste of money, but don't think your place is secure just because you paid $1500 to a contractor to install one. Being a builder, I've actually talked myself out of a few door jobs just because I couldn't in good conscience take advantage of someone who has no clue about building construction thinking a steel door makes their place into Fort Knox.


Most people looking to break in don't want to make noise or spend more than a minute to do it. Brick or aluminum will make take time and make noise. Unless there are actual valuables in the house or cabin, it is not worth the effort or risk to go through the wall.


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## jatc (Oct 24, 2008)

petronius said:


> Most people looking to break in don't want to make noise or spend more than a minute to do it. Brick or aluminum will make take time and make noise. Unless there are actual valuables in the house or cabin, it is not worth the effort or risk to go through the wall.


 
I agree with you if you are talking about a fairly busy neighborhood. Not worth the risk.

In a rural setting, with no neighbors close by, it is a different story.

A good door does deter B & E crimes. I was only making the point that it is still very easy to get into the typical dwelling regardless of how good the door is. If a person is familiar with construction this is given knowledge already. I have been a little surprised I guess over the years of how little many people understand of how a wall is actually constructed.

I had a woman call me to give her a door replacement bid for her remote "cabin" on a lake in the EUP. I was going to be in the area so I swung over to meet her. She, like many others, was worried about someone breaking in and stealing her appliances. She had picked out a security door with sidelights that ran about $1800 and with materials and labor would have been about $2500 to install. The salesman had told her that her house would be basically bulletproof if she installed this door and had lockable shutters put over her windows. I told her I could do the job but before I did I wanted her to understand her house was still vulnerable right through the wall as I described before. She said "I thought the walls were solid!" Like I said, she really had no idea as she had zero experience with it. This "cabin" would have been worth the effort to enter to the astute burglar. No way was she going to empty the contents everytime she went back to her main residence in the SLP.

I ended up installing a good door, but much less expensive, with a deadbolt and told her to spend the rest on a security system, which she did. She has had the alarm go off twice and both times there was evidence of a B & E attempt, but the alarm must have scared off the would be thief before he got in. I can pretty much gaurantee that without the alarm her place would have been emptied out as nobody would have heard the sledgehammer beating in the door. That alarm starts screaming and the guy doesn't know for sure if it is a monitored system or not, 99% of the time they just run.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

tjs said:


> Petronius,
> 
> Not sensitive. Just trying to figure out the players. Sort of fun, actually. The web is an interesting place. Thanks.
> 
> tjs


 
I didn't mean to come off so harsh. But there is a difference between criminal tresspass, recreational tresspass, breaking and entering, and home invasion. 

I just wish LEO's would understand these better when they respond to a 911 call.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

PikeLaker said:


> I'm in a remote area in the UP and have never had any problems. In fact, I once forgot to lock the shed, came back three months later and the shed door was blowing in the breeze (had been for 3 months) and not a thing was missing!
> 
> 1) Like others have said, nothing of any real value is left at the cabin. 13' TV, *OLD* power tools, etc.
> 
> 2) I also leave all the curtain/shades/blinds open so everybody can see that there is nothing of value to steal.


No one I know locks their place either, heck we got guys from macomb next to us that do the same thing.


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