# Versatility of the .308 vs 30.06



## SmithDerek16 (Jan 19, 2010)

I've never understood the concept of Kentucky windage...can one really call an ethical shot...'ethical' when they are in escense, guessing where the bullet is going?


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## WhitetailJunkie (Nov 3, 2008)

SmithDerek16 said:


> I've never understood the concept of Kentucky windage...can one really call an ethical shot...'ethical' when they are in escense, guessing where the bullet is going?


 Unfortunately a lot of people I have talked with over the years have no clue on the effects of wind on bullets in flight. Now I am not saying I am perfect and hit the longer range targets on my first or even second attempt(even using a good ballistics program) but thats why when shooting at these longer ranges I use steel plates as targets, not an animal. Ballistics coefficients? Ha...what the hell is that? There are way too many people who use published data, like the trajectory info on the box of ammo, to figure their holdovers and have never even shot their gun/ammo anywhere past 50-100 yards. To me, using unproven data will give you an unknown result and you cannot call these shots ethical. I guess we could call that using Kentucky windage and.....Arkansas elevation?

This is not a poke at those that actually have the knowledge and skill to pull off the longer shots, just saying that most have no idea whats involved to do so.


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## SmithDerek16 (Jan 19, 2010)

WhitetailJunkie said:


> This is not a poke at those that actually have the knowledge and skill to pull off the longer shots, just saying that most have no idea whats involved to do so.


I completley agree, after re-reading my post I suppose I should have included the above statement as well...

I can probably shoot 1000 meters with the right set-up, more likely 750 meters, but to be honest - I have never tried, The farthest I have ever sent a round down range is 300m with a 5.56 with open sights through a M16A2.. My H&R USH shoots 200, and yes I can effectively shoot 200 yards with Hornady SST's, but i will never take game that far with it, nor even attempt. 

Once my UHR in .308 has dependable optic atop it, I will start stretchin to 500 meters...

My comfort zone for all things hunting is 100-200 mix shotgun/rifle..200-300 for shooting all things non-bio. 

I'm not trying to bash anyone else either, i just personally could never justify guessing where a round is going to go...It just doesn't seem right to me..


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Wind has a HUGE affect on bullet drift. Shoot a .17hmr and you will learn this in a hurry. A 5mph wind will pull that little bullet hard past 50m.

Long distance shooting is no different than any other discipline; it takes education, practice and quality equipment to do it effectively.

Best part about preparing for long distance shooting is...........trigger time is fun! 

In fact today its very nice out! The AR10 will be coming out today to put some bulk ammo down range for trigger time (and to accumulate brass for reloading).

Might be a good night to catch a coyote on the move hunting as i suspect all the other little critters will be out feeding. 

As for the 5.56....i shoot that as well out of a M&P AR platform. Even with optics that .223 moves around a bit. I like to keep it around 200 for tight groups. Maybe reloading some handloads will help for the 200+ stuff.


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## SmithDerek16 (Jan 19, 2010)

Rugergundog said:


> Wind has a HUGE affect on bullet drift. Shoot a .17hmr and you will learn this in a hurry. A 5mph wind will pull that little bullet hard past 50m.


 
Right I hear you, so knowing what you know about what you just wrote^^ - could you justify shooting at an animal past 50 meters with a 5mph wind? Knowing that you'll need to use windage, guessing no less.. It just seems so unpredictable you know? I'll stop rambling, I just can't wrap my mind around this..


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

SmithDerek16 said:


> Right I hear you, so knowing what you know about what you just wrote^^ - could you justify shooting at an animal past 50 meters with a 5mph wind? Knowing that you'll need to use windage, *guessing no less.. It just seems so unpredictable you know*? I'll stop rambling, I just can't wrap my mind around this..


The whole point is that it is not guessing. With range time you take the time to learn what your bullet does at 5 mph, 10 mph etc and you learn what it does at all ranges. Guys that shoot long range with any success never, ever guess. It's a calculated science, period. It's completely predictable. It takes knowledge and specialized gear to make it happen. not to mention range time galore.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

SmithDerek16 said:


> Right I hear you, so knowing what you know about what you just wrote^^ - could you justify shooting at an animal past 50 meters with a 5mph wind? Knowing that you'll need to use windage, guessing no less.. It just seems so unpredictable you know? I'll stop rambling, I just can't wrap my mind around this..


Exactly as swamp posted, its not guessing. Look at it this way. Knowing the wind speed is no different than knowing the distance; two variables that affect your point of impact. Extreme long distance shooting you also have to include in the curve of the earth, rotation of the earth, air pressure, temp, humidty.....but as long as you know how whatever given variable affect your bullet you can adjust.

You know how a new trend is for scopes to have turrets marked out for specific calibers. Lots of .22 and .223 models marked out for ballistic drop. As long as you know the distance you just adjust your optics accordingly.

Windage is much the same way. Though its a bit more difficult to get as precise as one needs to shoot on windy days and keep accurate notes. But once you know how a 170g bullet flies at 300m in a 10mph wind......you record those adjustments on your scope. Next time out in those conditions you can adjust.

Do some google reading on the MOA and Mil dot principle, it.

And again.........just more the reason to go farm some lead! :evil:


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Kentucky windage is....."Hey aim about 12" above his shoulders beyond the barn and that ditch" to hit him in the pumper.

Accurate shooting (sniping) makes a calculated adjusment to your optics.

Now....all that said once you are good and know your equipment a shooter can more effectively use the "kentucky" method. I use it with my bow. I only shoot with one pin as i know past 30m i need to aim 3" higher for a 40m shot.


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## Rasher (Oct 14, 2004)

The whole Kentucky thing for me is just a "saying", as stated(ruger/swamp) trigger time is the key here/in what I said derek, I/we went on that hunt in 1980, I grew up with the autoloaders in my hands, by the time we left for the hunt I pesonally put 1000 or so thru each of those guns, we bought the bolt guns specifically for this hunt and put 200-300 in the summer befoer we left. My dad was a member of te washtinaw sportsmans club at the time and they had just built the 600yrd range, we were will aware of "hold over" and being lifeong hunters both bird and deer, and trap/skeet shooters we are also very familar with lead. Time at the range is the most important thing and knowing what you as the shooter are comfortable with, range time is the only way you will find that out.

I have seen over the years people buying guns in the weeks just before a hunt/season, even the night before, and these people take them in the woods and when they miss or wound a animal it always the guns fault.


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## SmithDerek16 (Jan 19, 2010)

Roger, I get it - the latter part of your post is most certainly what I am refferring to. I myself am an avid Skeet/Trap shooter...I find nothing more relaxing then busting 500 clays in an afternoon - I understand lead, and I understand self drop compensation.

But, as you said - there's folks out there that take such a statement as "kentucky windage" and use it as on the spot moment self justification and "well the deer was 'bout 200 yards or so i took my smooth bore with winchester super x's and put the bead about 2 1/2 foot over its back and let her rip"

Those people, THAT mindset it what kills me. If you understand (example) that a 6 mph crosswind at 600 meters is going to alter your round 36 inches left/right and you self compensate because your're THAT proficient..I get it, I accept that- but certianly not in the johnny crackshot hillbilly method that leaves animals wounded or rounds flying astray

end rant


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## WhitetailJunkie (Nov 3, 2008)

Swamp Monster said:


> The whole point is that it is not guessing. With range time you take the time to learn what your bullet does at 5 mph, 10 mph etc and you learn what it does at all ranges. Guys that shoot long range with any success never, ever guess. It's a calculated science, period. It's completely predictable. It takes knowledge and specialized gear to make it happen. not to mention range time galore.


 Right...In a situation where you have not only the time but the necessary tools to figure out the correct windage and elevation adjustments. But in most real life hunting situations how would you know for sure the wind is blowing at exactly 12 mph between gusts, coming from exactly 90 degrees right to left, the approx air temperature and pressure? These are all things that equate into being able to hold, at minimum, 2 moa at say 600 yards ( being generous and giving you approximately a 12" kill zone). Oh yeah and thats not even getting started on if the target is moving. 


Point is I absolutely agree with the knowledge and correct equipment these factors can be determined but in most hunting situations its just not viable and anything less is just a guess.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

WhitetailJunkie said:


> Right...In a situation where you have not only the time but the necessary tools to figure out the correct windage and elevation adjustments. But in most real life hunting situations how would you know for sure the wind is blowing at exactly 12 mph between gusts, coming from exactly 90 degrees right to left, the approx air temperature and pressure? These are all things that equate into being able to hold, at minimum, 2 moa at say 600 yards ( being generous and giving you approximately a 12" kill zone). Oh yeah and thats not even getting started on if the target is moving.
> 
> 
> Point is I absolutely agree with the knowledge and correct equipment these factors can be determined but in most hunting situations its just not viable and anything less is just a guess.



I don't disagree but there is a whole lot of guys shooting game under field conditions in the 800 yard + category. They have perfected the tools and the knowledge to read the wind and how that wind is different over different distances etc. I figure they are the 1%'ers and the rest will never master such skill....me included!


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## Rasher (Oct 14, 2004)

Swamp Monster said:


> I don't disagree but there is a whole lot of guys shooting game under field conditions in the 800 yard + category. They have perfected the tools and the knowledge to read the wind and how that wind is different over different distances etc. I figure they are the 1%'ers and the rest will never master such skill....me included!


Nuff said, I gotta say when MI passed the law-you can hunt from a tree stand with a gun, i was just sick. All I could think about, were morons taking shots with the idea-if I can see it I can shoot it- and they most likely have no business shooting past 200yrds, thank god for the most part they were/are shooting towards the ground.

I dont shoot like that anymore, but I would still feel comfortable with my 7 out to 500 or so yrds. The only 800 yrd shot I would take or anything past 600 really would be with a camera.


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## Rasher (Oct 14, 2004)

On a side note, I heard a old timer say once, that if you or have someone drop a bullet when you shoot, by the time the dropped bullet hits the ground the one you shot will also be impacting the ground. Gives you something to think about huh. If it really does how come wind plays such havoc on POI.


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## SmithDerek16 (Jan 19, 2010)

Rasher said:


> I dont shoot like that anymore, but I would still feel comfortable with my 7 out to 500 or so yrds. The only 800 yrd shot I would take or anything past 600 really would be with a camera.


 
Must be a damn nice Camera


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

Rasher said:


> On a side note, I heard a old timer say once, that if you or have someone drop a bullet when you shoot, by the time the dropped bullet hits the ground the one you shot will also be impacting the ground. Gives you something to think about huh. If it really does how come wind plays such havoc on POI.


The ol' timer must have been Isaac Newton. True but only in a vacuum - would be kind of tough on the shooters :yikes:. In all cases, vacuum or otherwise, the bullet starts dropping the instant it leaves the barrel and contrary to what many shooters believe the bullet never rises above the bore of the barrel.

Hoppe's no.10


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## Forever444 (Feb 17, 2011)

If you're going to be shooting in excess of 400, no lets make that 300 yards the game you are pursuing is going to give you plenty of time to use the proper equipment to get an accurate estimate of the wind speed. And on the topic of the thread regarding a 308 win. or 30/06 sprgfd. for 600 yard shooting I wouldn't recommend it. I'd say any of the various Weatherby Magnums, such as a .257 or 7mm Weatherby Magnum, are more suited for shooting at ranges beyond 400 or 500 yards, if you are going to actually shoot that far..


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## PA BUCK 2 (Oct 17, 2006)

Nick Adams said:


> It's even funnier that we spend so much time debating insignificant differences between cartridges for hunting out past 300 yards, when so few hunters can put three consecutive rounds on a paper plate at 100 yards from the offhand position.
> 
> We put too much effort into deciding what to buy and not enough into practicing with what we have from field positions.
> 
> -na


AMEN!!! Best post that I read on this thread. 

I have shot the .308 and 06 out to 1000 yards with open sights. This was in competition shooting with M1 and M14... I think it is funny that everyone thinks that scopes are the key to long range shooting too.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

SmithDerek16 said:


> Roger, I get it - the latter part of your post is most certainly what I am refferring to. I myself am an avid Skeet/Trap shooter...I find nothing more relaxing then busting 500 clays in an afternoon - I understand lead, and I understand self drop compensation.
> 
> But, as you said - there's folks out there that take such a statement as "kentucky windage" and use it as on the spot moment self justification and "well the deer was 'bout 200 yards or so i took my smooth bore with winchester super x's and put the bead about 2 1/2 foot over its back and let her rip"
> 
> ...


agree 100% with ya!


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Swamp Monster said:


> I don't disagree but there is a whole lot of guys shooting game under field conditions in the 800 yard + category. They have perfected the tools and the knowledge to read the wind and how that wind is different over different distances etc. I figure they are the 1%'ers and the rest will never master such skill....me included!


I agree! The numbers i tossed out of 600m is an arbitrary number solely based on the maximum distance at a range i will be using. 

But also in the bigger scheme of things....600m is not that far for skilled shooter. Prarie dog hunters shoot chipmunk size critters from this far out with quite success with 22.250


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## Goosedown (Jan 12, 2009)

You are lucky enough to be in BFE on the hunt of a life time and you need ammo for some unexplained reason. Better chance of finding 06 than 308. I like the aura of the 308, but just pick up a new 06. Ballisticly, are they about the same?

goosedown


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Ruger, The most important thing when you are considering long range shooting at a living creature is to be honest with yourself about YOUR abilities.
There are far more guns capable of 600m accuracy than there are people capable of accuracy at 600m.

My .308 is built to be very capable well beyond 600m......But not in my hands, even at a bench. I shoot targets at 400 and would be comfortable on game at that range with a solid rest, But that would only be after all possibility of a closer shot is exhausted. In my shaky hands I make every effort to be within 200yds of my target.

What I am saying if your good at 600 or even 1000 have at it. But respect your own limits and the animal your flinging lead at.


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## SmithDerek16 (Jan 19, 2010)

swampbuck said:


> What I am saying if your good at 600 or even 1000 have at it. But respect your own limits and the animal your flinging lead at.


A'men brother


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

:idea::idea: Why not get a rifle with interchangeable barrels.....then depending on your need, simply dial in the scope......


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

GIDEON said:


> :idea::idea: Why not get a rifle with interchangeable barrels.....then depending on your need, simply dial in the scope......


Because when I have over $4,000 wrapped up in my .308's i would like to utilize them.

30.06 sold this morning.



I totally agree guys; at this point i would take a 300m shot on a deer size game. However with trigger time and some time at the range we will see where im at by October. Heck crossing my fingers that the deer i see out there are within a few hundred yards anyhow.

Gonna hit the range tomorrow morning. Shot a slew of .223 today and the wind had it all over.......still fun though.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Rugergundog said:


> Because when I have over $4,000 wrapped up in my .308's i would like to utilize them.
> 
> 30.06 sold this morning.
> 
> ...


4 grand in a 308.......?


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## PA BUCK 2 (Oct 17, 2006)

I believe that he has multple .308s and is centering around one caliber for shooting and reloading.


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## Newcub (May 26, 2010)

Goosedown said:


> You are lucky enough to be in BFE on the hunt of a life time and you need ammo for some unexplained reason. Better chance of finding 06 than 308. I like the aura of the 308, but just pick up a new 06. Ballisticly, are they about the same?
> 
> goosedown


Even in BFE you wouldn't have a problem finding .308 ammo. About the only reason you couldn't would be that they were sold out. I was talking to someone a Jays awhile back & he told me when they put an order in for ammo it's just about doubled the amount more then anything else.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

PA BUCK 2 said:


> I believe that he has multple .308s and is centering around one caliber for shooting and reloading.




Got it now,................................... thanks for the clarification


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

GIDEON said:


> Got it now,................................... thanks for the clarification


Yes, this is the case. 

There was a time when i kept my gun safes filled with all sorts of different caliber guns. And as much fun as it was shooting and hunting with them I am liking the idea of using fewer choices; because as many have stated in most given applications several perform just the same.

Heck most situations a .243, .270, .308, 30.06, even 30.30 and prob others including a 20g slug gun will work just the same while hunting our Michigan deer.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Rasher said:


> I will take a slight exeption to that staement Sir. Knowing your weapon and "your" capabilities are more important than caliber or amount of powder pushing it. Heres a small look into my stable,
> 
> .300 mag bolt bought 1979
> 7 mag bolt bought 1979
> ...



I copied it all, that's a nice write up you did.. very nice stats. I, myself have done a few 1/4 mile shots and stop at that.. there was a time I did a bit more.. but we won't talk about that.. 

I'm impressed, Every year I Promise to start reloading... and eventually I will, or I won't.

I did learn while with the national varmiter's association that the store bought hornady's were every bit as accurate out of an off the shelf Salvage as the hottest custom guns and custom loads... But that was just our hunt club.... 

I"m impressed with ya'll that can do the 500 Plus yard shots. I picked up my 300 weatherby just for long range. and My 35 whelan for short range big game. Due to kick reasons and injuries I have down graded from my .06 to my 7mm -08. but it's hard to leave the rest of the arsenal home, just in case ya know....


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Rugergundog said:


> Heck most situations a .243, .270, .308, 30.06, even 30.30 and prob others including a 20g slug gun will work just the same while hunting our Michigan deer.



That's what I've been told.. the 30-30 has killed more deer than any other gun or group of guns made. 

I strongly disagree with at least the group of guns... but I do agree the 30-30 has wounded more deer than any other gun or group of guns.....
well maybe accept the new found love of hunting with those SKS's...

There are all good guns in the right hands, with the right circumstances, with the right loads and distances.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Rugergundog said:


> Yes, this is the case.
> 
> There was a time when i kept my gun safes filled with all sorts of different caliber guns. And as much fun as it was shooting and hunting with them I am liking the idea of using fewer choices; because as many have stated in most given applications several perform just the same.
> 
> Heck most situations a .243, .270, .308, 30.06, even 30.30 and prob others including a 20g slug gun will work just the same while hunting our Michigan deer.



I didnt mean to come off as rude or condescending, I thought you were looking to purchase, my mistake.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

oh not taken that way, no biggie.

Ive done a good deal or research and consultation of .308 shooters and hunters and have come to the conclusion that its most likely with my given load my shot on deer will be limited to 500m.....if (when) my skills are capaple of that shot. Looks like from 400m onward the .308 though still very capable for accurate shots looses a good deal of energy. Sure i will still kill a deer past 500m......however i don't want to risk it; i like a reletively quick clean drop.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Rugergundog said:


> oh not taken that way, no biggie.
> 
> the .308 though still very capable for accurate shots looses a good deal of energy. Sure i will still kill a deer past 500m......however i don't want to risk it; i like a reletively quick clean drop.


An Ethical sportsman pulls the trigger when they believe they are putting food on the table, not when they are hoping too!..

Most of us believe in quick clean drops. Heck myself, dragging a deer is no longer an option. So it has to be quick and clean and drop where I can get a vehicle to it, and a way to hoist it in the truck, or count on somebody to drag/load it for me.... Hence the reason I have a variety of calibers for a variety of situations, without having to dial in the scope when I take it out of it's case.

On the other hand the .06 and the 300 Weatherby and the 35 whelan and the 12ga mag's etc are no longer options for me either. And yep I've even pulled the ol .410's out!

An yes with injuries like mine.. The difference in pain between a 30-06 and a .308 is double. 

Even with the .243 or .308 or 7mm08 I"M lucky to get 3 clean shots off before I'm all over the board.

My oldest was a dead eye till some knuckle head (when he was 14) took him out shooting their .06. That young man is ruined until he learns to quit flinching. (keep that in mind when a friend is talking about putting a 7mm mag or 300 mag, or .06 etc in a small teenagers hands)


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## Newcub (May 26, 2010)

Putman Lake Campground said:


> That's what I've been told.. the 30-30 has killed more deer than any other gun or group of guns made.
> 
> I strongly disagree with at least the group of guns... but I do agree the 30-30 has wounded more deer than any other gun or group of guns.....
> well maybe accept the new found love of hunting with those SKS's...
> ...


The 30-30 has nothing to do with wounding game it's the person doing the shooting.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Newcub said:


> The 30-30 has nothing to do with wounding game it's the person doing the shooting.


you couldn't have said it better....


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Rugergundog said:


> Kentucky windage is....."Hey aim about 12" above his shoulders beyond the barn and that ditch" to hit him in the pumper.
> 
> Accurate shooting (sniping) makes a calculated adjusment to your optics.
> 
> Now....all that said once you are good and know your equipment a shooter can more effectively use the "kentucky" method. I use it with my bow. I only shoot with one pin as i know past 30m i need to aim 3" higher for a 40m shot.


aim at his nose and about a foot high so when he starts running again you should get him in the heart!

if he doesn't start running you might get him in the neck if the wind don't stop blowing!

(We've heard similar conversations, right folks? )


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

PA BUCK 2 said:


> AMEN!!! Best post that I read on this thread.
> 
> I have shot the .308 and 06 out to 1000 yards with open sights. This was in competition shooting with M1 and M14... I think it is funny that everyone thinks that scopes are the key to long range shooting too.



It's hard to beat a peep sight! I've required my children to learn open sights well before I'd allow them a scope!


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Well im not into taking guessing pop shots. If its not darn near a given kill i won't be squeez'n off a shot. No kentucky guessing for me....half the fun for me is range time learning how my equipment works.

200 yard shots last weekend shooting ciggy butts of a twig on the target frame......i think we are well on our way to some fun shooting this summer. I would like to find a little fun legue to join just to learn from some veterans.


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