# The great poaching debate.



## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Missed? I read MSF everyday. Didn't feel like chiming in.


Wow. News to me.
Now back to the thread.


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

I think the fines should set in stone no plea bargaining and the fine should be heavy. The money from these fines need to go back in the fish and game fund not to the local court system


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Scout 2 said:


> I think the fines should set in stone no plea bargaining and the fine should be heavy. The money from these fines need to go back in the fish and game fund not to the local court system


The big money does go back into the FnG fund the little numbers usually go to court costs and fines.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Scout 2 said:


> I think the fines should set in stone no plea bargaining and the fine should be heavy. The money from these fines need to go back in the fish and game fund not to the local court system


That's not how our legal system works.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Lot of talk about violating on this site. What goes on down there, and what do you want to stop?

Violating doesn't enter in my normal conversations with guys. The term violator up here, usually means out of season or at night. 

No one really cares about 2 gallon limit. You may ask if you heard that shot, how could the guy even see. But I think we figure if he had enough light see, ok. I think most guys wear enough orange, if they don't it is there problem. Obviously I'd hate to shoot someone.

When sitting at the camp, the topic just doesn't come up.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Im more interested in the guy shooting deer on the wrong side of the fence..lol


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

Rounder said:


> Lot of talk about violating on this site. What goes on down there, and what do you want to stop?
> 
> Violating doesn't enter in my normal conversations with guys. The term violator up here, usually means out of season or at night.
> 
> ...


 In my conversations with hunters I know and hunters I hunt with the topic never really comes up, but maybe it should. Sweeping it all under the rug doesn't help fix the problem, and it is a problem in all areas just some more than others.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

cast and tug said:


> In my conversations with hunters I know and hunters I hunt with the topic never really comes up, but maybe it should. Sweeping it all under the rug doesn't help fix the problem, and it is a problem in all areas just some more than others.


My question is how much of it really goes on. People on here make it sound like a lawless deer genocide down there.

I am not sure it really is a concern up here.

I know of one hunter in my years that didn't buy a tag. He said after not filling them for years, he quit buying them. Ya I thought it was wrong, but I didn't get that worked up about it, since he wasn't shooting deers. He was looking for trophies. I went on a long stretch without getting any, but I still bought a tag. Like I said violating to me is taking deer illegally, season, or at night.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Rounder said:


> Lot of talk about violating on this site. What goes on down there, and what do you want to stop?
> 
> Violating doesn't enter in my normal conversations with guys. The term violator up here, usually means out of season or at night.
> 
> ...


I maintain, and the CO's I used to talk to all the time at the store maintained that most deer were not poached out of season or after dark, but they were poached in season and during daylight hours, under otherwise normal hunting conditions. What say the CO moderator here?


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

jr28schalm said:


> Im more interested in the guy shooting deer on the wrong side of the fence..lol


We don't have fences all the much up here, that don't have livestock in them.

Couple years ago I heard about a dispute where the guy claimed it was shot on his field. I heard the guy shot up there place. They are from downstate, so noby cared.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> I maintain, and the CO's I used to talk to all the time at the store maintained that most deer were not poached out of season or after dark, but they were poached in season and during daylight hours, under otherwise normal hunting conditions. What say the CO moderator here?


So what do we consider poaching, if shot during season, and legal hunting hours? No tag?

That is wrong, but it is a money issue. I am more worried about the effect on the herd and on other peoples hunting. I am not saying it is right. Deer kills should be checked for tags.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

yup them guys from down state are just good for bringing cash up..lol


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Rounder said:


> My question is how much of it really goes on. People on here make it sound like a lawless deer genocide down there.
> 
> I am not sure it really is a concern up here.
> 
> I know of one hunter in my years that didn't buy a tag. He said after not filling them for years, he quit buying them. Ya I thought it was wrong, but I didn't get that worked up about it, since he wasn't shooting deers. He was looking for trophies. I went on a long stretch without getting any, but I still bought a tag. Like I said violating to me is taking deer illegally, season, or at night.


I would be willing to bet that twice as many deer are illegally taken in the LP in 2014 as the total of deer legally taken in the UP in 2014.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> I would be willing to bet that twice as many deer are illegally taken in the LP in 2014 as the total of deer legally taken in the UP in 2014.


Again what are we defining illegal as? No tag, or the way they are hunting?

LIke I said, I think you should have a tag, but I think including it in the total inflates the number. Some cheapskate is not the same as shooting out of season.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

jr28schalm said:


> yup them guys from down state are just good for bringing cash up..lol


Many wish they wouldn't do that. That is why we planted the wolves. Once deer hunting gets to hard, they will just stay home.


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

As for what I feel poaching is, when any game is taken illegally. As far as baiting, trespassing, loaded weapon after or before shooting light, hunting without a license( but no kill) things like that are violations.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Personally I get tired of hearing about the guys that shoot multiple yearling bucks on everyone else's tags! A lot of people I've talked to over the years don't even consider it poaching! It's just treated with a wink and a nod. This is one of the reasons I support APRs and do not support OBR or HC. Taking these bucks completely off the table makes it much harder for these guys to disguise their deer as a legal kill. I don't have an issue with someone shooting a yearling when it's legal. But when people shoot multiple spikes and forks they're stealing from everyone else in their area and greatly diminishing the quality of everyone else's hunting!


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

I doubt either of us would be surprised on what the percentage on that would be, I doubt all the CO'S are out there looking for minor infractions or are ready to ticket them all, I can't say if they do, I myself have never had a encounter with one in the field.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Rounder said:


> Again what are we defining illegal as? No tag, or the way they are hunting?
> 
> LIke I said, I think you should have a tag, but I think including it in the total inflates the number. Some cheapskate is not the same as shooting out of season.


You "think you should have a tag"? It's an option? Or should you wait until you kill something first? Someone who knowingly and purposely doesn't buy a tag is the worst sort of poacher. He not only steals the game, he doesn't even help fund the agency.
Someone shooting a deer with no tag or someone else's tag or over a "clearly illegal large bait pile" would fall into the area of obviously poached.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> Personally I get tired of hearing about the guys that shoot multiple yearling bucks on everyone else's tags! A lot of people I've talked to over the years don't even consider it poaching! It's just treated with a wink and a nod. This is one of the reasons I support APRs and do not support OBR or HC. Taking these bucks completely off the table makes it much harder for these guys to disguise their deer as a legal kill. I don't have an issue with someone shooting a yearling when it's legal. But when people shoot multiple spikes and forks they're stealing from everyone else in their area and greatly diminishing the quality of everyone else's hunting!


Bingo!


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

How about we just throw away all the rules. You can hunt whenever you want , day or night, use what you want bait all you want. You can road hunt at night if that floats your boat. Absolutely no rules. You buy a license and hunt as you please. Then it would be an even playing field for everyone. No such thing as cheating then. Think of the money we could save on dnr officers. We wouldn't need any anymore.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Let's say if someone was to, I don't know, let's say shoot a deer on the other side of the fence. What should they get as punishment ?


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

stickbow shooter said:


> Let's say if someone was to, I don't know, let's say shoot a deer on the other side of the fence. What should they get as punishment ?


Hard to say. What would the fine be if your neighbor cut down one of the tree's in your yard?


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

stickbow shooter said:


> Let's say if someone was to, I don't know, let's say shoot a deer on the other side of the fence. What should they get as punishment ?


They should receive the max, loss of hunting priveleges for 5 years ,spend 5 days in jail with 1000 community service hours cleaning out the holding tanks of outhouses at DNR parks and landings only using a red solo cup and a 5 gallon bucket.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Hard to say. What would the fine be if your neighbor cut down one of the tree's in your yard?


I think it's a $500 ticket per stump.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

If they loose there hunting licence, then they can't hunt in other states as well. Like for deer or even elk.


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

stickbow shooter said:


> Let's say if someone was to, I don't know, let's say shoot a deer on the other side of the fence. What should they get as punishment ?


The same as the same deer being taken out of season, not during shooting light, no tag, etc.......


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> Personally I get tired of hearing about the guys that shoot multiple yearling bucks on everyone else's tags! A lot of people I've talked to over the years don't even consider it poaching! It's just treated with a wink and a nod. This is one of the reasons I support APRs and do not support OBR or HC.!


If the area has enough deer, they will just shoot a bunch of 6s. No good solution for this. Th arguement can be made spikes are easier to poach.



cast and tug said:


> I doubt either of us would be surprised on what the percentage on that would be, I doubt all the CO'S are out there looking for minor infractions or are ready to ticket them all, I can't say if they do, I myself have never had a encounter with one in the field.


Never had a run in either, but I think they would ticket you for unmatching socks, if they could.


Pinefarm2015 said:


> You "think you should have a tag"? It's an option? Or should you wait until you kill something first? Someone who knowingly and purposely doesn't buy a tag is the worst sort of poacher. He not only steals the game, he doesn't even help fund the agency.
> Someone shooting a deer with no tag or someone else's tag or over a "clearly illegal large bait pile" would fall into the area of obviously poached.


I have never took the chance, over a few bucks. So not an option for me. But if you think not paying the government is worse then killing out of season or illegal deer, you got your priorities wrong. Not buying a tag, doesn't effect my hunting.

I consider shining a trophy deer, alot worse.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

You guys need to hunt where there are no fences. It is like a range war over barb wire down there.


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## frenchriver1 (Jul 5, 2005)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> The idea of not being "a snitch" on poaching neighbors stealing our/your game animals is a ghetto/gang banger code of intimidation that isn't worth consideration. That code is a large part of the reason that those communities are such hell holes. If you had a neighbor breaking into your garage at night, would you call the police and "snitch" on them or simply let them keep breaking into your garage because of the "no snitching" code that criminal gangs use to intimidate others?


Wow, I wonder if I would have gotten the same reaction if I had used the term "rat" versus snitch? I used it in the context of not informing the authorities in case of an illegal outdoor activity, versus a comment on "communities" and breaking into garages.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Actually you can't steal a deer off someone elses land. The land owner does not own the deer.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Rounder said:


> Actually you can't steal a deer off someone elses land. The land owner does not own the deer.


But you can't shoot it across a fence line, where you don't have permission to be on . Then drag it on to your land.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

stickbow shooter said:


> But you can't shoot it across a fence line, where you don't have permission to be on . Then drag it on to your land.


That would be tresspassing.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

I got in more trouble for a joint in my pocket then the guy who shot the cougar in the up.....lol


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

So was the guy only fined for shooting his neighbors deer?lol.. what the hell is the real story


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

I


frenchriver1 said:


> Wow, I wonder if I would have gotten the same reaction if I had used the term "rat" versus snitch? I used it in the context of not informing the authorities in case of an illegal outdoor activity, versus a comment on "communities" and breaking into garages.


I call them losers, dirt bags and hillbilly's. A poacher stealing from my 2nd home and hunting property is stealing the same as if they broke into a building. Criminals who lower property values are the same, whether they steal tools from a locked truck or game from an area where hunting value is paramount. Deal with it. Poachers are losers and they need to get what's coming to them. There's no defending them. On top of it, most are fat guys who don't even need the meat.

BTW, where is your land located? If you don't mind trespassers, please let us know. Or do you not have hunting land and the experience of being violated by others claiming to be fellow sportsmen?


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

The tolerance, defending and acceptance of violators in such a short span of time on this thread is evidence that violating isn't going to end any time soon and that some still have a "don't report me and I won't report you" attitude. And that attitude is the whole basis behind the ghetto/gangster/mafia attitude of "snitches" or "rats". They have that attitude because they're all involved in some type of illegal activity, be it drug sales, welfare fraud or disability fraud, or the like.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

jr28schalm said:


> I got in more trouble for a joint in my pocket then the guy who shot the cougar in the up.....lol


http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2014/03/dnr_officer_bay_city_man_ate_c.html


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

The Richards, together with Troy Richard’s 43-year-old taxidermist brother Todd A. Richard, of Burt, were arraigned on criminal charges on Wednesday, March 5. Troy Richard and Theodore Richard accepted plea deals and were sentenced.

Troy Richard pleaded guilty to single misdemeanor counts of taking or possessing an endangered species and conspiracy to commit that crime and Schoolcraft County District Judge Mark E. Luoma sentenced him to 30 days in jail and ordered him to pay $5,225 in fines, costs and restitution and to perform 120 hours of community service. Upon release, he is to serve two years of probation. He also had to forfeit the .357 Magnum he used to kill the cougar and cannot hunt through 2016.

Prosecutors agreed to dismiss single felony counts of torturing or killing animals and lying to a peace officer.

Theodore Richard pleaded guilty to one count of taking or possessing an endangered species and Luoma ordered him to pay $1,725 in fines and costs and perform 96 hours of community service. The judge revoked his hunting privileges through 2015 and he is to serve two years of probation.


Luv2hunteup said:


> http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2014/03/dnr_officer_bay_city_man_ate_c.html


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> TAnd that attitude is the whole basis behind the ghetto/gangster/mafia attitude of "snitches" or "rats". T.


If you compare selling crack to children, to someone shooting your deer, you have an ego problem.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

wintrrun said:


> No.
> Do you?


I was wondering why you brought up drinking while hunting.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Because you bought prohibition into the thread.lol


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Here's a few reasons why guys shoot multiple spikes/forks in 1 season. Greed, entitlement, laziness, jealousy, thrill killing, and impatience. Needing the extra meat from a second deer is pretty far down the list in today's modern world.

It's sad that when the topic of shooting small bucks on other people's tags is brought up, the old "it's not your deer" argument rears its ugly head. It's pretty safe to assume that guys/camps that do this sort of thing are strongly against MAPRs. In hindsight, if poaching bucks wasn't so popular, there probably wouldn't be a need for MAPRs. A few bad apples really do ruin it for everyone else.


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## HuronView (Oct 18, 2014)

Poaching is about greed, plain and simple. Whether the poacher is out for antler, meat or just the thrill, it all stems from wanting something they don't have and don't believe they can (should have to) get by legal means. 

I dislike the argument that poaching isn't as bad as X offense, so we should be tolerant. Poaching is theft of a public good.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

wintrrun said:


> Because you bought prohibition into the thread.lol


You missed the point.


Uncle Boopoo said:


> Here's a few reasons why guys shoot multiple spikes/forks in 1 season. Greed, entitlement, laziness, jealousy, thrill killing, and impatience. Needing the extra meat from a second deer is pretty far down the list in today's modern world.
> 
> It's sad that when the topic of shooting small bucks on other people's tags is brought up, the old "it's not your deer" argument rears its ugly head. It's pretty safe to assume that guys/camps that do this sort of thing are strongly against MAPRs. In hindsight, if poaching bucks wasn't so popular, there probably wouldn't be a need for MAPRs.


Prohibition was a law that was passed by a few, that was unpopular with the public. What right do the few have to tell the many how to live? Obviously it failed, because the public did not support it.

I think you can debate needing extra meat. While I don't think people will starve without it, I think there are people who feed there family with it. I read a post here, where someone said if they need the meat, they should get food stamps. Very different mindset in people. Government handout, someone else's money, or shooting a spike.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

HuronView said:


> I dislike the argument that poaching isn't as bad as X offense, so we should be tolerant. Poaching is theft of a public good.


But it is also a theft, by one of the owners. Deer belong to the public, but we are happy with the government giving us a chance to hunt, by their rules.

I am not advocating poaching, just bringing up a point of how so many people are sheep to the government.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

My grandfather hunted into his 80s. In my life mostly spikes and forks. He didn't need the meat. When my mom was growing up they did though. He just liked to get a deer. For some there is a satisfaction in that. In the snowbelt, you don't see a lot of deer

Should the government or snobs tell an 80 year old man he can't shoot his last deer, or a 14 year old he can't shoot his 1st? The latter is an issue if we want future generations to hunt. I realize there are some greedy hunters who do not want more competition in the woods. But they are short sighted. Less hunters, easier to take away right or put better laws lower on priority list for lawmakers.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> I think you can debate needing extra meat. While I don't think people will starve without it, I think there are people who feed there family with it. I read a post here, where someone said if they need the meat, they should get food stamps. Very different mindset in people. Government handout, someone else's money, or shooting a spike.


I'm specifically talking about guys shooting a second spike/fork buck. A doe has just as much meat as a young buck, yet bucks are still targeted. There have been multiple CO's on record stating that the majority of the poached deer cases they work on are poached bucks. This doesn't support needing the meat excuse. But it does support ego and antler fixation and all of the other things I mentioned above.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Rounder said:


> You missed the point.


I did not.
I just gave more emphasis to the Prohibition issue you brought into the debate.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I'm specifically talking about guys shooting a second spike/fork buck. A doe has just as much meat as a young buck, yet bucks are still targeted. There have been multiple CO's on record stating that the majority of the poached deer cases they work on are poached bucks. This doesn't support needing the meat excuse. But it does support ego and antler fixation and all of the other things I mentioned above.


I think you can argue this.
Alot of people debate whether it is better to kill one buck who can knock up a few does, or the does that give birth. Some people low deer herds on lack of does.

I think we need educate people on taking does. I'd rather take a doe then a fork. But they don't give doe permits by me. If a person is going to use someone else's tag to get a 2nd deer, it has to be a buck.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

wintrrun said:


> I just gave more emphasis to the Prohibition issue you brought into the debate.


What does prohbition mean?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

The topic is poaching. Not Q.D.M. or M.A.P.R. or what legal hunters should harvest , though all are affected by it.
Deer are a resource we should all be as jealous of as our being allowed to hunt them.
Less deer poached=potential for more deer of a variety of ages and both sex's.
No poaching(hey a guy can dream) would result in even more.
Then we can go back to arguing who should kill what ..legally , and property lines value to deer and landowners with attending rights that should also not be violated , but enforced..


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

If people don't need the meat as some say, why do we have poaching? Is there more poaching of big bucks then little? That would support the horn idea.

Typically when I hear people talk of eat out of season deer, it wasn't big bucks.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> I think we need educate people on taking does. I'd rather take a doe then a fork. But they don't give doe permits by me. If a person is going to use someone else's tag to get a 2nd deer, it has to be a buck.


I completely understand what you're saying. I've hunted NWLP all my life and antlerless tags are often hard to come by. However, this just adds to the greed argument if you're hunting in a place with very few deer and you cheat the system so you can shoot a second deer. I could even see those guys making the argument that MAPRs takes opportunity from hunters, while their actions do the same thing.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

I read an article in Porcupine Press, about a guys childhood. How his family member would shoot does without fawns, in the summer, since that meant they were not fertile.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I completely understand what you're saying. I've hunted NWLP all my life and antlerless tags are often hard to come by. However, this just adds to the greed argument if you're hunting in a place with very few deer and you cheat the system so you can shoot a second deer. I could even see those guys making the argument that MAPRs takes opportunity from hunters, while their actions do the same thing.


I have never spoke to anyone about this, or done it. They may justify it by saying they are taking it in a legal maner, not cheating in the way they hunt. If they are using a relatives tag, that didn't hunt, they are just shooting theres. Someone only hunted first weekend, and then goes back downstate and gives there tag to someone else who can hunt longer. 

I understand how that is justified, the tag is good for all season, but guy didn't have time. Yes illegal, but not the same as shooting a deer with a spotlight. Ethical, but illegal.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

The law says you can sell a million buck tags, but no doe tags in some areas.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> If people don't need the meat as some say, why do we have poaching?


I gave a list of reasons above. Times have changed. The guys that are so poor that they have to shoot a second deer are very a small percentage of poaching that takes place. You're talking about 1-2 dirt poor families in a given rural area, vs herds of hunters heading north or hunting in SLP. It's a shame how many don't even consider this poaching, yet if I had to guess, I'd say it's probably the most frequent form of poaching that there is. Then when you tell these guys that they're no different from the guy that's jack lighting bucks, they get all offended and act like you're the bad guy for forcing big government down their throat.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

wintrrun said:


> We are all antlerphiles, PF.
> Seeing how anyone who purchases a deer hunting license buys it with the intent of punching it out and attaching it to antlers.
> It's only when an individual's preferences for harvest extend across property lines and boundaries do we truly see the obsession involved.


Deer aren't managed by the state for particular properties. The state currently manages on a county or multi-county basis. The actions of every individual impacts everyone. Individual preferences are more of a selfish attitude in a macro-management world. Like with a river, the actions of others upstream and downstream can impact everyone on the river. The deer woods are no different. But some can't or won't admit that.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> I understand how that is justified, the tag is good for all season, but guy didn't have time. Yes illegal, but not the same as shooting a deer with a spotlight. Ethical, but illegal.


I completely disagree! It's just as bad as shooting with a spotlight and the nonchalant attitude towards this action is why it's also more common and a bigger issue!

You're stealing opportunity from anyone else that is still out there, playing by the rules! What if the guy that still out there needs the meat too?


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I Then when you tell these guys that they're no different from the guy that's jack lighting bucks,t.


I said I think there is a difference between shooting a deer at night, and usuing someone elses tag. Ethics vs legality


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I completely disagree! It's just as bad as shooting with a spotlight and the nonchalant attitude towards this action is why it's also more common and a bigger issue!
> 
> You're stealing opportunity from anyone else that is still out there, playing by the rules! What if the guy that still out there needs the meat too?


I told you how I think they justify it themselves.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

HuronView said:


> Poaching is about greed, plain and simple. Whether the poacher is out for antler, meat or just the thrill, it all stems from wanting something they don't have and don't believe they can (should have to) get by legal means.
> 
> I dislike the argument that poaching isn't as bad as X offense, so we should be tolerant. Poaching is theft of a public good.


I think bragging rights has a lot to do with it, in certain circles. Some guys feel like a failure if they don't bring home a buck and they'll do anything to get one.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> I said I think there is a difference between shooting a deer at night, and usuing someone elses tag. Ethics vs legality


What if the deer that is shot at night is tagged with a valid tag? Cheating is cheating and the rules are in place for a reason. Should the guy that has the best spot just fill everyone else's tags for them? What's wrong with letting the guy down the road shoot that deer?


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I completely understand what you're saying. I've hunted NWLP all my life and antlerless tags are often hard to come by. However, this just adds to the greed argument if you're hunting in a place with very few deer and you cheat the system so you can shoot a second deer. I could even see those guys making the argument that MAPRs takes opportunity from hunters, while their actions do the same thing.


Anyone in the NWLP can shoot at least 2 antlerless deer, every year. Public or private land.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> I think bragging rights has a lot to do with it, in certain circles. Some guys feel like a failure if they don't bring home a buck and they'll do anything to get one.


Yes there is that. You are a failure as a man if you don't a buck. 

Heard many times "Once you get your first one the pressure is off". Many people grew up when you could jsut buy a 2nd tag, after you shot your first one. I think it is is crooked of the DNR to make me buy two tags before I shot the first buck.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> What if the deer that is shot at night is tagged with a valid tag? ?


You are chasing your tail.

I said I see a difference between hunting at night and using legal means during the day. 

DNR gets there money, and money is what drives the world.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

If you can buy a combo tag before the season, why can you not buy a point restrictive 2nd tag?


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> You are chasing your tail.
> 
> I said I see a difference between hunting at night and using legal means during the day.


What's the difference jack lighting and shooting a deer on someone else's tags? They're both not legal due to man made laws! Using your train of thought the jack lighter bought his tag, the state got their money, so what's the issue?


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

I had a guy ask me to shoot a deer for him, if I got access to a farm that had lots of deer. He liked to eat deer, didn't want to want. I never hunted that farm. Farm probably would have wanted me too.

Devil's advocte or legal philosphy debate, if the deer belong to the public, and a person is elligible to buy a tag, and there is not a limit on tags, why can they not designate a surrogate? I know this would never happen, and I am not advocating it should. But I think it is an interesting question.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> What's the difference jack lighting and shooting a deer on someone else's tags? T?


If you can't tell the difference you shouldn't be hunting.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I completely understand what you're saying. I've hunted NWLP all my life and antlerless tags are often hard to come by. However, this just adds to the greed argument if you're hunting in a place with very few deer and you cheat the system so you can shoot a second deer. I could even see those guys making the argument that MAPRs takes opportunity from hunters, while their actions do the same thing.


Having 20 years on a property north of you I agree that doe permits from a mangement standpoint of view were like hitting the lotto. 
The whole Antlerless lottery is a joke but considering the juggling act the dnr has to do I understand it.
Your deer management is what you make it and you will always have to include to your management plan what can be done legally.
Deer mangement from the dnr's perspective will always be giving recreational hunters the best opportunity so that participation rates reflect cash flow to dnr coffers.
Wait and see what happens this coming season with the dnr fully knowing that a majority of traveling U.P hunters will be seeking greener pastures closer to home in the LP.
As far as the greed argument?
Knowing is a minority part of the battle and when you do know the next step of actually doing something about it is where the majority end the battle.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> If you can buy a combo tag before the season, why can you not buy a point restrictive 2nd tag?


That's the same as not buying a tag until you shoot a deer. Why isn't that legal?

If you're referring to hunters choice, it's an effort to manage the buck population. So they created rules in order for that to happen. If they let you buy a single tag and you fill it and decide you want to change your mind and shoot another buck, then the whole point of hunters choice goes out the window.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> If you can't tell the difference you shouldn't be hunting.


I'm not the one that's condoning poaching! Maybe you should look in the mirror with your statement!


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I'm not the one that's condoning poaching! Maybe you should look in the mirror with your statement!


I have a moral and legal scale. It comes with rational thought. Ever see Lady Justice?


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> That's the same as not buying a tag until you shoot a deer. Why isn't that legal?
> 
> w.


No it isn't.

Until 90s you bought a single buck tag. Then after you shot your buck, you went and bought your 2nd buck tag. You were only allowed two.

Now you have to buy the 2nd buck tag, before you shot the first. You need to work on your logic skills.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> I have a moral and legal scale. It comes with rational thought. Ever see Lady Justice?


So it's morally wrong to shoot a deer at night, but not morally wrong to take more than you should? Gotcha!


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> So it's morally wrong to shoot a deer at night, but not morally wrong to take more than you should? Gotcha!


Quote me where I said it was right?

You don't give someone the electric chair for assaualt and battery. I am not sure if you can't see the difference, or if you are deceptive in the way you debate.


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

The thought process of, I only hunted 2 days or whatever excuse they come up with, so my buddy is going to fill my tag. I can do what I want with it I bought it idea is what's wrong with today's society, I played the game but I lost so I should still get a trophy. I don't agree with that so I'm not going to agree with filling others tags.
If it was planned that every tag was punched there wouldn't be as many tags available if there was in a few years we wouldn't have any deer. The dnr knows there is a percentage of people that aren't successful and that is put into the management plan. Maybe that guy that never gets a deer might get one if someone wasn't always filling there tag for them. Remember it's called hunting not killing.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> Quote me where I said it was right?
> 
> You don't give someone the electric chair for assaualt and battery. I am not sure if you can't see the difference, or if you are deceptive in the way you debate.


You didn't have to actually say it. Sympathizing with the action and arguing for it is basically the same thing.

The problem with your analogy is the end result. A person that's assaulted usually doesn't end up dead. No matter which method of poaching is used, the deer is still dead and opportunity has been stolen from someone else that also paid their money, spent their time, and followed the rules.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> Some people do feel entitled to their deer.


Yeah. He would be the guy who shoots it without a license and has someone else tag it or buys a tag later. 

A true disciple of entitlement.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

DirtySteve said:


> The $4300 number is inflated. There are things figured into it that would be spent regardless if I hunted or not. Food, lodging and transportation are all costs for living. I need those if I hunt or not. Just because I go hunting X amount of days per yr they count my living expenses as hunting cost for those X Number of days. I can tell you I spend a very small fraction of that 4k on hunting and fishing.


That's why they call it an average. Average means average. Some spend a lot less, some spend a lot more, but the average is what that number represents. So you are below average. That doesn't change the average, it just tells us where you lie on the curve.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> Alot of this is rural vs city people. Not saying country people don't spend money to hunt.
> 
> I laugh at people who don't care enough about hunting they hundreds of miles away, think they have superior view then those who choose to live their life that way.


I hunt right at home.

I own two deer hunting properties worth roughly $500,000 that I paid cash for. In order to get my costs down to the costs of beef, I would have to kill thousands of deer per year for the rest of my life.

And oh, I am a country boy. Most UP hunters are from the city by the way, and travel up there to hunt but most hunters in the SLP are rural, and hunt at or near home.

So your theory is completely bogus. 

I throw the average up, others throw the average down, but the guy who saves money by shooting a deer? He is called a unicorn.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

bioactive said:


> I hunt right at home.
> ................
> I throw the average up, others throw the average down, but the guy who saves money by shooting a deer? He is called a unicorn.


bio, call it a night. Nothing here to get worked up over.

L & O


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> If someone buys the tag after they shoot the deer, the deer would be dead either way and does not effect my chances.
> 
> It wrong and you can argue it takes money away from management.
> 
> ...


A deer shot by a guy without a tag was not shot by a competing hunter either. You have to have a tag for the deer you are going to shoot in order to be called a "hunter". "Poacher" is the word for a guy who shoots a deer without a tag in his possession. 

But yes, I am competing with poachers like the ones you are defending.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Liver and Onions said:


> bio, call it a night. Nothing here to get worked up over.
> 
> L & O


Ha ha.

Someone is talking sense around here.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Dam Bio, did you just pound down some energy drinks ? You keyboard is probably on fire. lol


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

bioactive said:


> You are a unicorn. Your represent probably 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10,000 hunters. What is your point?


Ya no matter how many tell you, you will say this. Is this because you refuse debate, or does it make you fill guilty for what you spend?


bioactive said:


> Oh, you have a camp. Have you prorated the costs of that camp over your lifetime of hunts?
> 
> What does it come out to?


You should read my posts.

I said I would have a camp no matter what. I am up there a great deal. My 4 wheeler and side by side are not just for hunting, or my trucks.

So no I do not include this in my costs. 


bioactive said:


> A deer shot by a guy without a tag was not shot by a competing hunter either. You have to have a tag for the deer you are going to shoot in order to be called a "hunter". "Poacher" is the word for a guy who shoots a deer without a tag in his possession.
> 
> But yes, I am competing with poachers like the ones you are defending.


As I have said over and over and over again, I agree he is a poacher. Part of hunting is being mature enough to realize someone else can shoot deer too. If th guy is cheating the system on money but eligible to hunt, he is a competinging hunter. Shooting out of season or at night is guy who stole a deer from competition.

How many times do I need to repeat the same thing? Maybe you should take notes if you are getting senile.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Waif said:


> Nations have and still do. Do you object?
> Who knows...those that came for copper here may have called the U.P. by a color.
> No sense in being surprised that anyone can see a color or colors as direction , unless you can and then encounter some one else who does too.....
> 
> ...


Do you beleive this, or are you just this desperate to disagree with me that you would say the color of the sky is up. For all my anti fans, I am just repeating what he typed.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

By the way don't assume to know my income, just because I don't go around telling people.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

We can tell bye your location..lol


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

jr28schalm said:


> We can tell bye your location..lol


What does that mean?


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Jesus man ..whats your address ill send you a package to make you in a better mood


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

jr28schalm said:


> Jesus man ..whats your address ill send you a package to make you in a better mood


I got the impression you were insulting the UP by saying people there are poor, when in fact there are many people with money.

As for mood, you must be the first to care for my mood.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> Jesus man ..whats your address ill send you a package to make you in a better mood


You can send it to my house. Lol


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

These deer forums are like every ones wearing realy tight ****** tightes


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## cmark (Mar 27, 2008)

Is there any reward system in place for information leading to the conviction of poachers? Rounder, you seem to have enough inside info to seriously augment your income if that is the case. Then you can make an offer on a deer paradise such as Bio has created.

Bio, great looking plate. Rut is about done down here. Still scratching my head over the difference in brow tine characteristics. Got one more sit on Jan 31.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> You can send it to my house. Lol


I have land in your area, we could probly work something out..lol


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

cmark said:


> Is there any reward system in place for information leading to the conviction of poachers? Rounder, you seem to have enough inside info to seriously augment your income if that is the case.
> 1.


I have been the one saying, I think it is less then what some claim, because I don't see it.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Rounder said:


> Do you beleive this, or are you just this desperate to disagree with me that you would say the color of the sky is up. For all my anti fans, I am just repeating what he typed.


Rounder posts ,"We won't agree. I don't think we could compromise on what color the sky is."
I offered a compromise.
Your jackassed response..
"I realize some here would think that direction is a color. It doesn't surprise me."
Maybe someday you will see the world is a little bigger than your opinion of it.
Meanwhile since you are so opinionated you become a buzzing red squirrel to be ignored.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Waif said:


> Ahhh , but from my earthly perspective the sky is colored "up". .


Ahhhh, ok.


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

jr28schalm said:


> These deer forums are like every ones wearing realy tight ****** tightes


Agreed, and.... Both sides believe the other side is sporting a..... "Camel Toe"....:evilsmile


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

More like the non apr guys got 70s bush..And apr guys got shaved landing strips....lol


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

I dunno I am thinking the opposite, APR seem like bunch of old guys.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Thats the funny part about the deer forums its split in half ...In the long run it will be our weakness thou...im middle aged and after older bucks...I piled alot of deer in tb zone in my younger days of all aged deer


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> Agreed, and.... Both sides believe the other side is sporting a..... "Camel Toe"....:evilsmile


Turtle Lake Club had an average 4.5 year old buck harvest last season, and their incidence of disease is vanishingly small. 

My opinion is that in a disease zone, anything that focuses hunters on or encourages buck harvest rather than doe harvest is a bad idea (in Michigan, where we are already overly focused on buck harvest).


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> I dunno I am thinking the opposite, APR seem like bunch of old guys.


Wrong again Rounder. An MSU study showed that support of APRs is considerably higher among young people than among older people.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

bioactive said:


> Yes, the farmer in bib overalls can walk behind the barn, sit on a bucket, jack a 20 year old rifled slug into his squirrel gun handed down to him by his grandfather, and come out ahead on venison.
> 
> He really exists. So do lottery winners.
> 
> ...


B.S. For several years I have hunted a couple hundred yards out my door. I don't spend anywhere close to what it would cost to buy 40lb of venison


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

jr28schalm said:


> Thats the funny part about the deer forums its split in half ...In the long run it will be our weakness thou...im middle aged and after older bucks...I piled alot of deer in tb zone in my younger days of all aged deer


I believe it's more 60/40, than 50/50.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> I believe it's more 60/40, than 50/50.


I see it more as 20/30/40/10.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> B.S. For several years I have hunted a couple hundred yards out my door. I don't spend anywhere close to what it would cost to buy 40lb of venison


It's called averages. My deer camp, log home, utility, gear, gas and tax expenses are about $20,000 a year. So if you and I were averaged, you're at about $10,000. And since I chose to not even shoot a deer this year, the average cost of your venison is even higher.
If your recall, when the first bait ban came in, the average Michigan hunters spent on bait was something like $300 a year. But again, that was just an average.


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2014)

bioactive said:


> You are a unicorn. Your represent probably 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10,000 hunters. What is your point?


Or one in 100, no one really knows.
The survey you sighted is highly questionable. I believe it says that it was based on a sample size of 10-20.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

bioactive said:


> Wrong again Rounder. An MSU study showed that support of APRs is considerably higher among young people than among older people.


It was just a joke, we were talking about women's pubic hair, and you said you were retired.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

I hope munster changes his pic to walts brother inlaw...lmfao


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> B.S. For several years I have hunted a couple hundred yards out my door. I don't spend anywhere close to what it would cost to buy 40lb of venison


You don't exist to them


Pinefarm2015 said:


> It's called averages. My deer camp, log home, utility, gear, gas and tax expenses are about $20,000 a year. So if you and I were averaged, you're at about $10,000. And since I chose to not even shoot a deer this year, the average cost of your venison is even higher.
> If your recall, when the first bait ban came in, the average Michigan hunters spent on bait was something like $300 a year. But again, that was just an average.


Bio said 1 in 10000 hunt cheaply. So that would not be an average.

Should look at median hunters, I suspect that is alot lower. Not everyone owns a camp. Are you at the camp strictly for deer hunting? Myself I enjoy the outdoors, so I am at mine all year.

If you are spending 20k on expenses, you need to get on a written budget. I believe the 300 in bait, though I am not that high. I would say closer to 150.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Man think I spent 600 on just lime last year..lol


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Woodstock said:


> Or one in 100, no one really knows.
> The survey you sighted is highly questionable. I believe it says that it was based on a sample size of 10-20.


Since I don't know 10k hunters, but everyone I know spends less then 4k. Sure I realize there is a big world out there. If the sample size was 20, throw it out.

Median costs would be better, a bell curve.

Also how many people use the camp or cottage for other things? Does their wife come up, or underage kids?

If you just include bait, gas, and what they sell at Cabelas, it goes down alot. Plus it needs to averaged over time. By costume will last for years. I add pieces to it here and there. 

Do you include all the guns? I don't need 3 30-06s, I just like guns. I buy plenty of guns that are not for hunting. I don't need to reload, I like too. If you are going to include those you should average them over your life, or working years.


When you throw round numbers like $4.3k I think you risk losing public support. Where wealth is looked down on.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

jr28schalm said:


> Man think I spent 600 on just lime last year..lol


Once you correct the soil, it shouldn't be a yearly expense.

How many hunters are on public land Michigan? Number is smaller, but percentage is higher in UP since we have more. Out west even more hunters hunt public, thought I don't know, I realize lots of private land out there too.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Perhaps to an extent an individual's yearly average expense turns them into being a poacher.
Knowing a vast majority of hunters every year eat tag soup perhaps cashing in illegally is a way of getting a return on their investment?
With all the finger pointing going on just here in these forums over years for why an individual fails to tag and the blame associated one might think it's not as uncommon as one might think.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Rounder said:


> Since I don't know 10k hunters, but everyone I know spends less then 4k. Sure I realize there is a big world out there. If the sample size was 20, throw it out.
> 
> Median costs would be better, a bell curve.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about it, it's a number that is absolutely impossible to average out in today's world..Of course a small sample would take care of all doubt!...lol


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## Wolverick (Dec 11, 2008)

Since the beginning of time all wifes have been female. Just because nine people in black robes say something does`nt make it so!


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## Pascal (Jan 7, 2016)

Rounder said:


> I meant yooper hunters not hunters in the up.
> 
> Also the drive costs don't add up to that much. I rack 20k or more of IRS miles. It is a profit for me. Even with new 4wd truck. It does reflect my costs.
> 
> ...


I actually keep track of what I spend on hunting. 
If I drive to scout and have to rent a motel that kind of stuff gets factored in. 
Anything I buy for hunting gets noted. 
The only thing I don't factor in is food. 
I kill 1 or 2 deer a year. 
I spend from $4000- $6000 a year. 
I will admit since I've been keeping track I have also purchased some high dollar items once or twice a year probably equating to 25% of my yearly totals. 
Then at least 1 shoulder mount every year too. Those run about $400. 


Either way it's not a cheap hobby for me but worth every penny I spend.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Liver and Onions said:


> I know that my wife is a female.
> 
> L & O


Good to hear you know.


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## Pascal (Jan 7, 2016)

wintrrun said:


> I will agree.
> A non hunting female wife in charge of the budget will not agree 99% of the time.


That would be a disaster.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> I don't think some people want or need the meat as bad as others. Unless the debate is that poachers aren't poaching for meat.



Let's take meat out of the equation and get right to bone.
You know antler mass and score..... Bragging rights.
Miles of cases on the interweb, nationwide, highlighting antler affliction and what lengths people go to illegally to obtain them.

Meat doesn't mean a thing these days unless you actually appreciate it.
Ego's on the other hand rule the landscape.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

My wife dont care what i spend...Them damn game cams are only good for a year..lmfao


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Pascal said:


> That would be a disaster.


Definitely.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

bioactive said:


> I own two deer hunting properties worth roughly $500,000 that I paid cash for. In order to get my costs down to the costs of beef, I would have to kill thousands of deer per year for the rest of my life.


I think you are the unicorn here. Very very few people out of the 700k deer hunters spend 500k on hunting property. 

I have bought two bows in my lifetime. One deer rifle and one muzzle loader. The rest of my dozen or so guns have been hand me downs. 

I am an avid waterfowl hunter. I have 3 boats. A canoe I inherited, a 12 ft flatbottom my father purchased when I was 12. And a 14 foot fishing boat I purchased from an uncle at 16 yrs of age. 75% of my decoys are hand me downs. The rest were Christmas gift when i was a young man. 

When we deer hunt it is backyard on neighbors land, up north at several different relatives summer cottages hunting state land or not far from home at a buddies farm. 

I think I am closer to the avg hunter than you are. 

The only substsantial expense that I can think of was a $300 investment in traps 2 yrs ago when my boys wanted to take up trapping. And I bought some high dollar turkey decoys last yr. I have bought clothing and boots through the yrs. I wear boots and avg of 10 yrs. I am wearing the same duck hunting coat I purchased 20 yrs ago.

I hunt, fish, trap, etc... more than anyone I know. My kids have gadgets like range finders and trail cameras etc... but those were Christmas gifts.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> It's called averages. My deer camp, log home, utility, gear, gas and tax expenses are about $20,000 a year. So if you and I were averaged, you're at about $10,000. And since I chose to not even shoot a deer this year, the average cost of your venison is even higher.
> If your recall, when the first bait ban came in, the average Michigan hunters spent on bait was something like $300 a year. But again, that was just an average.



I don't believe you can count your land, home, utilities, or even gas. You can try to argue that you only spend it because you want to deer hunt....but if you didnt own it someone else would and they would be spending the same on land utilities taxes etc. That money is spent regardless if someone hunts there or not. Your property tax and utility has nothing to do with deer hunting. It is like trying to say I have to figure in the cost of owning my 4x4 truck as a deer hunting cost.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

bioactive said:


> I think you probably spend considerably more than that. IRS reimbursement rates are about $0.50 per mile for personal use of a vehicle. Most hunters just count the gas as their cost of using the vehicle for hunting, but the gas is only a fraction of the cost. The actual cost of driving the vehicle is a fraction of all the money ever spent on it, including wear on the tires, fluids, insurance, etc. If you drive 10 miles, you used up about $5 of the cost of running that vehicle, and by the way, it is higher than that for those of us driving big pick-up trucks. The IRS just averages the costs.



I have this argument at work all the time. We have the choice of renting a car and getting free gas or driving our own and I pay the gas and collect .48 per mile. If your car is brand new you might be right. My car is 12 yrs old with 240k miles on it. There is no depreciation if I drive it 100 miles for work related business 150 times in a yr. Blue book value is still the same.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

I drive brand new 4wd truck and I make money, since my employers chooses to give me the full IRS credit. Been doing this for 10 years. Around 25k miles a year.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Rounder said:


> I believe you are right, in what people think of me. Judge a man by his enemies.
> 
> I make enough money I don't need to go without a tag. As I have said I have never shot 2 deer in one year, never shot a deer illegally.
> 
> ...


I have no reason to suspect you of illegal harvest. 

What you are guilty of is offering a two dimensional argument in a one dimensional world. Understand there there are at least some who understand the difference.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> What were the taxes on the land?
> Swampy, I thought you hunted in one of those air float boats in the Dead Stream? Those can't be cheap. In the past you said you hunted an island by boat "almost exclusively".
> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/boating-on-river-for-bucks.171389/#post-1493792


Nope, quit participating in that camp several years ago.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

bioactive said:


> Yes, the farmer in bib overalls can walk behind the barn, sit on a bucket, jack a 20 year old rifled slug into his squirrel gun handed down to him by his grandfather, and come out ahead on venison.
> 
> He really exists. So do lottery winners.
> 
> ...


An interesting application of value vs. cost semantics. I suppose the counter argument might include an estimation of how much we spend above and beyond the minimum required to achieve what you've identified as immeasurably valuable.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

wintrrun said:


> Let's take meat out of the equation and get right to bone.
> You know antler mass and score..... Bragging rights.
> Miles of cases on the interweb, nationwide, highlighting antler affliction and what lengths people go to illegally to obtain them.
> 
> ...


My property is in one of the area's of the state long known as being the worst for poaching deer in the state. Yet, the area is also known to having probably the lowest ratio of mature bucks in the state. For example, in nearly 40 years of deer hunting there, scouting there and shining deer there, I've never seen a buck over say 125. Of all the neighbors, in nearly 40 years I know of exactly 2 bucks that were 4 year old bucks and both may have scored maybe 115-120. Both were killed legally.

So, in my area, the bucks being poached are mostly yearlings with tiny antlers, as there are very few 3 year olds and almost no 4 year olds. With the amount of "right at dark" single rifle shots that exists outside of rifle season, there's 10 times more shots than there is even 2 year old bucks that exist.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> Nope, quit participating in that camp several years ago.


Why? Wasn't it public land? You said it had the most natural sex ratio's out there with mature bucks all over. That's why APR's weren't needed.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

jr28schalm said:


> These deer forums are like every ones wearing realy tight ****** tightes


And or diapers.


----------



## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

bioactive said:


> Turtle Lake Club had an average 4.5 year old buck harvest last season, and their incidence of disease is vanishingly small.
> 
> My opinion is that in a disease zone, anything that focuses hunters on or encourages buck harvest rather than doe harvest is a bad idea (in Michigan, where we are already overly focused on buck harvest).


Is your opinion disease dependent or all encompassing?


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

QDMAMAN said:


> It's estimated that Hunting and fishing is a $2,000,000,000.00 industry in Michigan. The MDNR's Russ Mason told me that Deer hunting license revenue represents approx. 56% of their budget (+-$1.12 Billion). There are approx. 650,000 deer hunters in Michigan.(*$1,723.00/hunter*). Wisconsin boasts similar numbers.
> This number likely doesn't take in to account land cost, taxes, fertilizer, tractors, etc., etc. associated with deer hunting.
> Bottom line....Venison is VERY expensive.


I know what you're saying but how it's being used is in error. Venison is free, hunting is expensive.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

wintrrun said:


> I will agree.
> A non hunting female wife in charge of the budget will not agree 99% of the time.


My non-hunting female wife is more concerned with the amount of time spent than she is with dollars.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Here's the thing, there are many hunters who only get a few days, and are not very serious about it. Don't even come close to the $1000 + average. Probably the majority of deer hunters. The statement was nobody comes out ahead.

So....yes, I hunted one of the most remote areas in the NLP. And yes it was/is one of the type of areas that you guys dream about. And yes I could and have/can, got to ALL of it.

I know the challenge of hunting big bucks, I have been close but no cigar. That is in the past, unfortunately due to a really bad situation and I don't miss that. It had to do with a group claiming exclusive rights to a large, VERY special piece of public land. Big antler's I have learned can have a not so pleasant effect on some people.

I get just as much enjoyment out of kicking back in my stratolounger in the sky, reading the banter.

Nope never killed a book buck, blew 3 opportunities......

Anyways, don't really spend much or wear out equipment, have had way more weapons/equipment than I ever needed. And don't buy into the gimmicks you guys promote.....so basically tags and projectiles. Far less than the equivalent weight and cuts of venison cost's.

P.S. I would love to send some of you to that area....share the expierience and all...LOL


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Wolverick said:


> The problem here is there are just too many ways to figure your costs and what to use as a basis. What field are you playing in, weather you use industrial economics, pastoral economics or some other system. Without determining a system you will never reach consensus.


Doesn't matter how you measure it, any of the posters in this thread who think they are coming out ahead (purely on the cost of meat) are fooling themselves.


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## tdduckman (Jan 17, 2001)

bioactive said:


> Doesn't matter how you measure it, any of the posters in this thread who think they are coming out ahead (purely on the cost of meat) are fooling themselves.



I agree and even in the extreme case of the guy hunting with his Grandpappies gun, bucket and jacket, using ammo his brother loaned him........that is no excuse for poaching to "feed" his family. that time would be better spent trying to get a good job, which would help provide food, shelter and clothing.

Hunting is a tradition, sport, recreational pastime, but it is not way to make a living

TD


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> I am not sure we need to over think it. I think listing what you include is needed, I also think it needs to be averaged over time.
> For me, hunting clothes, knives, do-hickeys, bait, propane for blind, heaters, gas to camp when hunting,ammo, taxidermy.
> 
> For me 4 wheelers are used more often for other stuff, so I wouldn't include. City people that don't get out much, and it is only for hunting, then include.
> ...


Funny, 9 days of 10 my 4-wheeler looks like the picture below. But on the 10th day, it is used to haul a deer out. This year, it just so happened that the drive belt broke while I was dragging a deer. Had to walk home to get the truck and pull the 4-wheeler home (use of the truck was directly for deer hunting in that moment). You think that the cost of the drive belt replacement is not part of the cost of my deer hunting? You are delusional. That includes every other repair, fluid change, parts purchase, etc. 

Whatever the percentage of time you are using your 4-wheeler for deer hunting, directly or indirectly (driving to check stands, etc.) is a real cost that has to be averaged over the life of the vehicle as a percentage. When you use a vehicle for something, it costs money to purchase, run and maintain it, and you cannot pretend there are not real costs associated with using it for hunting vs. leaving it parked and not using it. 

Oh, by the way, the other 9/10s of the time when it looks like the picture? That is preparation for deer hunting, so is part of the cost. And I do not live in the city. My 4-wheeler gets used 100% for deer habitat work and deer hunting. And it does not know what a city is. 

And regarding economics, you must include your camp. Whatever days your camp gets used for deer hunting offsets costs that would otherwise accrue if you did not have the camp.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

swampbuck said:


> Here's the thing, there are many hunters who only get a few days, and are not very serious about it. Don't even come close to the $1000 + average. Probably the majority of deer hunters. The statement was nobody comes out ahead.
> 
> So....yes, I hunted one of the most remote areas in the NLP. And yes it was/is one of the type of areas that you guys dream about. And yes I could and have/can, got to ALL of it.
> 
> ...


So, you have had way more weapons than you needed?

Did you buy them for deer hunting?

If so, average them over the years you used them because they are deer hunting expenditures.

Even if you did not buy them for deer hunting, but used them for deer hunting, they are deer hunting expenditures based on what fraction of their use was for deer hunting.

As far as the average northern woods hunter, who only spends 7 days per year (that is the average for gun hunters). He spends *way* more than he will make back if he gets a deer if he just makes one single trip up north for a few days, buys licenses, bait, ammo, (target range sight in counts for costs), etc. There is just no such thing as someone coming out ahead on meat except for the extremely rare case where someone never buys anything or drives anywhere for deer hunting, just takes the old squirrel gun out and shoots a deer behind his house with a rifled slug.

Keep in mind, when you are looking at average expenditures, realize that 60% of those hunters do not get a deer at all each year. So they get zero return whatsoever on whatever costs they incurred. 

I don't know if you guys really believe yourselves or if you have explained you lack of costs to your spouse so many times that it has become rote, but it is a truly hard to believe that you really believe it.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

bioactive said:


> Doesn't matter how you measure it, any of the posters in this thread who think they are coming out ahead (purely on the cost of meat) are fooling themselves.





tdduckman said:


> I agree and even in the extreme case of the guy hunting with his Grandpappies gun, bucket and jacket, using ammo his brother loaned him.......
> 
> TD


How about some math
$500 Remington 700 rifle, 300 Leopold scope, 5 boxes Corlock $100, 2 pairs of Danner boots, $400, two Cabelas costumes, $800, 5 tanks of gas $150, 20 tags $400. $200 electric grinder 

$2500 for $20 years of hunting. 

$30 lbs of burger x$2 +20lbs at $5, $160 in meat per year x 20 years is 3200 in meat.

Not saying the guys is getting rich, but not a cheap skate either. Could save even more money.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Here is a recent price list from McCauliffe's meat market in Addison:

*whole boneless rib eyes starting at 5.39lb
whole boneless new york strips starting at 3.39lb
73% lean hamburger in 10lb tube 1.65lb
family pack sirloin tip or chuck steaks 3.89lb
sirloin tip or bottom round roast 3.09lb*

Let's figure costs for 50 lbs. of meat. 

50% burger = 41.25
25% roasts = 38.65
20% various steaks = $35
5% prime steaks = 13.43

Total = $128

Remove $31 for the cost of a base and deer tag and you get to $97.

That is how much someone is saving if they only use one old shotgun shell and their grandpa's hand-me-down squirrel gun and does not drive anywhere to shoot a deer or buy so much as a deer call or butt out tool or anything else deer related, and processes themselves. 

Now ask yourself, do you think you spend over $100 per year on deer hunting? Do you get a deer every year?

This dispels the silly myth about getting venison at a better cost, but what about the ridiculous myth that I am "feeding my family".

Well, the family can run right on down to McCaulliffe's and buy 50 lbs. of good meat (hamburger) for $82.00.

They don't have to buy a license ($33 for the base and deer), and will have a bunch of spare time to find a better job or work extra hours or spend the time with their families that they would otherwise have spent "getting the meat". 

Now please, don't tell me all the other reasons you hunt (I believe you, they are all valid, that's my point), just don'[t tell me you save money by hunting, it just ain't so.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Every thing we do cost money, even if you are just taken a crap. The food you ate, the toilet paper and the water to flush. Some people just spend more then others on hunting. ( even craping ad a news paper or book ) . I would think that the poacher would come out better then the legal Larry's of this world. I know when I go to the Yoop for camp it's close to $ 500 , when my step father use to go deer hunting in Maton he would drop close to $ 2000 just for lodging, food, gas.And he seldom killed a deer. I am fortunate to be able to walk out my door and go hunting , that keeps the cost way down.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> How about some math
> $500 Remington 700 rifle, 300 Leopold scope, 5 boxes Corlock $100, 2 pairs of Danner boots, $400, two Cabelas costumes, $800, 5 tanks of gas $150, 20 tags $400. $200 electric grinder
> 
> $2500 for $20 years of hunting.
> ...


You ignore the fact that only 40% of hunters even get a deer every year. So if you take all the hunters who spend exactly what you say, you need to multiply the latter number by 0.4 to see what the deer yield was = $1280, even using the inflated calculation you did. You see, unless he gets a deer, he gets no meat.

And it is silly, just plain silly to only include 5 tanks of gas at current prices for 20 years of hunting. A Couple of years ago I was spending over $100 per tank to fill up my F150.

Get real Rounder. 

Oh, and you forgot bait, range finders, binoculars, long underwear, gloves, hats, toe warmers, scent sprays, magazine subscriptions, trips to the expo, etc. And you are giving him a little over 1 shell per deer. Ha ha. Never sights in, never misses or needs a killing shot. Ha ha.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

bioactive said:


> Here is a recent price list from McCauliffe's meat market in Addison:
> 
> *whole boneless rib eyes starting at 5.39lb
> whole boneless new york strips starting at 3.39lb
> ...


I need to shop at that store, I pay $ 3.00 a pound just for the junk grade burger at our local store, and for rib eye it's close to $ 8.00 a pound.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

bioactive said:


> Funny, 9 days of 10 my 4-wheeler looks like the picture below. But on the 10th day, it is used to haul a deer out. This year, it just so happened that the drive belt broke while I was dragging a deer. Had to walk home to get the truck and pull the 4-wheeler home (use of the truck was directly for deer hunting in that moment). You think that the cost of the drive belt replacement is not part of the cost of my deer hunting? You are delusional. That includes every other repair, fluid change, parts purchase, etc.
> 
> Whatever the percentage of time you are using your 4-wheeler for deer hunting, directly or indirectly (driving to check stands, etc.) is a real cost that has to be averaged over the life of the vehicle as a percentage. When you use a vehicle for something, it costs money to purchase, run and maintain it, and you cannot pretend there are not real costs associated with using it for hunting vs. leaving it parked and not using it.
> 
> ...


You do have a pretty side by side. I use mine alot, so it doesn't look like yours. Must folks up here own a 4 wheeler. The miles I put on related to deer hunting, are small compared to the rest.

Obviously your side by side doesn't know what a city is, you are the problem there. You should get out and enjoy nature more. I understand though you city people only make so much time for it.

I wouldn't include the break down on my hunting costs, just because it happened that day because it could have broke next week or the week before. You can pro rate the cost to your hunting. But I use mine alot, just as my camp is not just for deer hunting. For you it is. But I spend alot of time in the woods.

So yes, if you dont get out in the woods much, include the cost of property to and side by side. I can prorate mine at 5%.

If you only a truck for this, include that. But I have 2 4wds, men own trucks to me. So I do not include the cost other then gas.

My vehicles are out of my living, I am very well aware of what the costs are with spreadsheets.

I really debate which guns to include in the cost of hunting. I like buying guns shooting and reloading.If I but a big gun to go out west, I think that would count. But I got more then enough white tail guns.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> How about some math
> $500 Remington 700 rifle, 300 Leopold scope, 5 boxes Corlock $100, 2 pairs of Danner boots, $400, two Cabelas costumes, $800, 5 tanks of gas $150, 20 tags $400. $200 electric grinder
> 
> $2500 for $20 years of hunting.
> ...


Since he is using gas, I suppose he is driving somewhere. Did he sleep in his vehicle and not eat?


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

bioactive said:


> You ignore the fact that only 40% of hunters even get a deer every year. So if you take all the hunters who spend exactly what you say, you need to divide the latter number by 0.4 to see what the cost per hunter was = $6250. You see, unless he gets a deer, he gets no meat.
> 
> And it is silly, just plain silly to only include 5 tanks of gas at current prices for 20 years of hunting. A Couple of years ago I was spending over $100 per tank to fill up my F150.
> 
> ...


I agree only so many get a deer. If you are met eater it can go way up. If all you want is a doe, you can get one with a bow, don't need all the clothes and scope. 

But not every one wears Danner Pronghorns @$200, or Leopold scope. Could buy package savage for $350. Could get a cheaper costume too, I have been rounding up. You only discuss the numbers that suit you.

Yes gas goes up, but so does meat. My point is, it is not the money hole you portray. 

You are very full of yourself, and will never listen to anyone else.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

bioactive said:


> Since he is using gas, I suppose he is driving somewhere. Did he sleep in his vehicle and not eat?


Drove 10 miles to hunt. He would have ate a sandwhich either way.

I am not talking about all hunters, as you are. There are plenty of hunters in the UP, that stay at a buddy's camp or drive home.

I can do the opposite and include every gadget i the world too. I am just showing there are people tht hunt, not complete cheapskate, and at a modest level.

If you were not so sure of yourself, you woul say yes, I realize many do that, but many don't, or I like to spend more. But you have tunnel vision, not sure if you have to be right, or feel guilty/foolish for what you spend.

But I think I portrayed a very common hunter in the UP. I spend more then that. But I don't need Filson, or all the bait, heaters, huge blind, game cameras.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

stickbow shooter said:


> I need to shop at that store, I pay $ 3.00 a pound just for the junk grade burger at our local store, and for rib eye it's close to $ 8.00 a pound.


I thought I was being conservtive. Tipping the cost towards Bio, so I didn't across like him.

My goal, was not to come across like him.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Bio, the way you baby that Ranger, it should last forever.


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## Pascal (Jan 7, 2016)

Rounder said:


> Obviously your side by side doesn't know what a city is, you are the problem there. You should get out and enjoy nature more. I understand though you city people only make so much time for it.
> 
> .


Huh?


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## Pascal (Jan 7, 2016)

bioactive said:


> Since he is using gas, I suppose he is driving somewhere. Did he sleep in his vehicle and not eat?


I never factor in food as a hunting cost because I have to eat regardless. 
I do factor in lodging. 
I probably should factor in food because while I'm away the food budget doesn't change much at home other than the wife won't pick up items that only I eat.


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## Radar420 (Oct 7, 2004)

2 questions:

Does my dental work have to be prorated when I eat venison?

Is the profit made from timber, firewood, and hay sales subtracted from the costs associated with deer hunting?


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## rollin stone (Dec 31, 2011)

Radar420 said:


> 2 questions:
> 
> Does my dental work have to be prorated when I eat venison?
> 
> Is the profit made from timber, firewood, and hay sales subtracted from the costs associated with deer hunting?



Yes, but don't forget to add toilet paper and laundry soap.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

QDMAMAN said:


> I bet you the behind the scenes communicating is off the charts at this moment and some are contemplating editing posts in the archives so they can disassociate themselves form a certain individual.
> No worries.
> We can address it in the great poaching debate thread here in the near future."


Ya I would not list my business on forum, and then come across______


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## pickle252 (Dec 24, 2013)

one more thing though......I can honestly say that it would be wonderful to get a big antlered deer like many of you get. I however do like knowing that my meat is hormone and antibiotic free. almost like nature intended, with the exception of pesticides, is a huge reason why I try to bring home a deer. I know people say that people don't just hunt for meat, and I get it. I am also out there for peace and quiet, time alone, the exercise, and of course the adrenaline. But it sure is nice knowing what I am eating and not taking some grocery stores word for it.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

QDMAMAN said:


> Try to keep up stick.
> 
> "Spit it out?
> It's times like these you hang out at M-S deer forums.
> ...


Ok gotcha. My bad.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Rounder said:


> Some guys trade their car or bike in every year. Financial responsibility is not high on his list.
> 
> He lost 500k on land deal, getting chump change in meat back.



Well, if I can afford to, and more importantly if I want to, who are you to question my, or anyone else's financial responsibility.

The thought of having to justify my self to myself for what I want to do is ludicrous.,I hunt because I want to, I buy guns because I want to, I buy atv's, cars because I want to. I live in the area and home that I do because I want to, I trade off my wifes car every 80,000 miles because I want to.....If I cant afford it, then I dont wanna do it at that time, plain and simple....................


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

GIDEON said:


> Well, if I can afford to, and more importantly if I want to, who are you to question my, or anyone else's financial responsibility.


Do what you want with your money.

But bio was saying how he puts his ranger to use, and some buddy sucker up saying he gets new ones all the time. 

I said I use mine for more then deer hunting cause I like to be in woods.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Next thread, hang em head up or head down?


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2014)

QDMAMAN said:


> Try to keep up stick.
> I bet you the behind the scenes communicating is off the charts at this moment and some are contemplating editing posts in the archives so they can disassociate themselves form a certain individual.
> QUOTE]


Sound like some severe lack of integrity


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

GIDEON said:


> Well, if I can afford to, and more importantly if I want to, who are you to question my, or anyone else's financial responsibility.
> 
> The thought of having to justify my self to myself for what I want to do is ludicrous.,I hunt because I want to, I buy guns because I want to, I buy atv's, cars because I want to. I live in the area and home that I do because I want to, I trade off my wifes car every 80,000 miles because I want to.....If I cant afford it, then I dont wanna do it at that time, plain and simple....................


Don't worry.
Others have taken the time to share there expenses, someone put together all the information in data form so any individual can argue there point to what you feel you do not need to justify.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> I know no one that has ever shot 2 small bucks, maybe once in 1990. Not sure.


If I lived in the desert, I probably wouldn't think snow was real either!

I know a neighbor that did it almost every year before APRs. He was reported but never caught that I know of. There was a business owner that admitted to me that he did it at least twice. I met another hunter on public land last year that was hunting on his wife's tag because he already shot a 6pt. Then there was a good friend's family member that used to do it all the time because "it's his land and he pays the taxes"! Those are only the ones I remember off the top of my head. 

There's been many more comments made over the last 20 years and none of those people are poor and needed the meat. It probably happens much more than any of us would like to know and the nonchalant attitudes towards it on this very thread support that theory, regardless of what those posters are willing to admit.


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## cast and tug (Apr 25, 2010)

bioactive said:


> I don't know if you guys really believe yourselves or if you have explained you lack of costs to your spouse so many times that it has become rote, but it is a truly hard to believe that you really believe it.


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## Craves (Feb 16, 2010)

swampbuck said:


> This thread illustrates the real problem qdm and the big antler movement has brought to hunting. Poaching and trespassing are wrong, they are illegal we all know that.
> 
> What some seem to forget is that....YOU DO NOT HAVE SOLE OWNERSHIP OF THE DEER BECAUSE THEY ARE ON YOUR PROPERTY !


This post illustrates how people that have no idea what they are writing about still feel the need to write something. 

What some people seem to forget is...POACHING & TRESPASSING EXISTED LONG BEFORE THE IDEA OF QDM & APR'S EVER CAME ALONG!


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Craves said:


> This post illustrates how people that have no idea what they are writing about still feel the need to write something.
> 
> What some people seem to forget is...POACHING & TRESPASSING EXISTED LONG BEFORE THE IDEA OF QDM & APR'S EVER CAME ALONG!


He may be talking about using someone elses tag to get a 2nd deer, rather then a point restrictive combo, or because you have to buy combo before you shoot a deer.

But you are right, poaching existed long before. I know many people who talk about living off venison as kids. I am not sure how much APR has effected it. Lots of variables. Because we don't really know how much it goes on, it really is just a guess, one guy knows a guy.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> Do what you want with your money.
> 
> But bio was saying how he puts his ranger to use, and some buddy sucker up saying he gets new ones all the time.
> 
> I said I use mine for more then deer hunting cause I like to be in woods.


Actually my buddy was wrong. I bought a new one in 2007 and it has been absolutely hammered over the year. Has scars and bruises galore. I bought a second one (2007-used) in 2010 and it too is as used and battered as battered can be. I suspect they get 10x the use of most 4-wheelers.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

bioactive said:


> Actually my buddy was wrong. I bought a new one in 2007 and it has been absolutely hammered over the year. Has scars and bruises galore. I bought a second one (2007-used) in 2010 and it too is as used and battered as battered can be. I suspect they get 10x the use of most 4-wheelers.


:lol::lol: I was being facetious. :evil::lol:


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Not single piece of plastic intact on mine. I need to fab something up to protect gas tank. No side plastic on mine. Need to repair windshield.

Need some better cv guards. Need to attach the hood.

Next time I may just remove the plastic.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

bioactive said:


> AI suspect they get 10x the use of most 4-wheelers.


I am sure everything to tell is this way.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> I am sure everything to tell is this way.


Well said Rounder, well said, whatever it is you were trying to say.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

QDMAMAN said:


> :lol::lol: I was being facetious. :evil::lol:


When are you not?


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Rounder said:


> Not single piece of plastic intact on mine. I need to fab something up to protect gas tank. No side plastic on mine. Need to repair windshield.
> 
> Need some better cv guards. Need to attach the hood.
> 
> Next time I may just remove the plastic.


As if on cue, I smashed into the butt of a small hinge cut tree today and gave my Ranger an owwie.

Thank goodness for shatterproof glass, it only gave my GF a few small cuts on her hand.

Here I am waving through the new hole in the glass.

Of course, I am in the parking lot of my "city" home as you can see.


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## RMH (Jan 17, 2009)

QDMAMAN said:


> :lol::lol: I was being facetious. :evil::lol:


I was going to agree and amplify......


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

bioactive said:


> View attachment 204062
> 
> 
> As if on cue, I smashed into the butt of a small hinge cut tree today and gave my Ranger an owwie.
> ...


Time to stimulate the economy!


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

QDMAMAN said:


> Time to stimulate the economy!


Oh yes, a local auto-glass company is going to get a reward for my carelessness. 

I will take care of the GF's hand personally.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

bioactive said:


> View attachment 204062
> 
> 
> As if on cue, I smashed into the butt of a small hinge cut tree today and gave my Ranger an owwie.
> ...


Sureis in nice shape. You ever take it out of the field?

Alot of ATV guys say SXS are to wide for the woods. But I have found they are not as wide as they look, and will go alot of places if you are willing to sacrfice looks. Also I like the roll bar for smashing through brush, that I would not want to do on my 4 wheeler.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

I like the lexan or plexiglass windows, cause I know I am going to break it, and I can fold it down for summer.


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

bioactive said:


> Actually my buddy was wrong.


First time I agreed with you this year....:evilsmile

Probably not the first time your buddy has been wrong this year either...:lol:


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> First time I agreed with you this year....:evilsmile
> 
> Probably not the first time your buddy has been wrong this year either...:lol:



I've still got a ways to go to catch you rut.


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

Now you're just being downright annoying.....:cheeky-sm

:lol:


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## cmark (Mar 27, 2008)

Way to go on the GF Bio.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

bioactive said:


> .......
> 
> it only gave my GF a few small cuts
> 
> .....


Have you posted any trail cam pictures of this doe so we can guess her age ?

L & O


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Liver and Onions said:


> Have you posted any trail cam pictures of this doe so we can guess her age ?
> 
> L & O


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

bioactive said:


>


At least she did not drag it backwards.

Hey good hit on the windshield!
My standard reply is becoming ,"well , it could have worked" ; after an oops..


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

bioactive said:


>


Did anyone else think that the deer was not properly tagged ?

Not the best looked, but that did look like a quality doe.

L & O


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## Brian W. (Dec 10, 2002)

bioactive said:


>


Damn, you could at least gut it for her.


----------

