# Youth Hunting Age



## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

I may have missed some previous discussion, but what do you guys think about the proposal to eliminate the minimum age for deer hunting in Michigan (or to lower it to 12)???


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## Gr8 Scout (Oct 27, 2000)

I don't like that proposal at all. Let's let kids be kids for a while, huh? 

Is this another harebrained Sue Tabor idea? She hasn't paid off those political debts to yet another hunting group?

(slipping on my flak jacket, tossing aside my boonie hat for a steel pot....)

Scout


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

No flak from me on this one......I teach Hunter Safety and I am not in favor of lower the age limits.

Sue Tabor supposedly listened to some folks who were parroting a rock star's desire to eliminate age restrictions in Michigan to be more like Texas.....

As if there is any comparison between the public land here and the private 100,000 acres leases there....


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

I like the change lowering the age to 12, as long as the kid is supervised and has passed their hunters safety I have no problem with it. 

Neal


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## Huntin Horseman (Nov 2, 2002)

I wouldn't mind lowering it to 12 but I don't want it eliminated and I don't see your problem with Tabor, she's one of our best people in office when it comes to hunting. It's too bad her term is almost over.


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Neal.... I see that as a possible compromise on this issue, however, enforcement becomes an issue at that point. There is no doubt in my mind that "some" 12 year olds are capable of handling the responsibility of a centerfire rifle or shotgun, however, the law needs to address not the best and the brightest, but rather the average kid, the average parent; and needs to protect, the average hunter on public land, 7:05 am on Nov 15th in Gladwin or Clare County.

Even when sitting right next to my son in a deer blind last year, my view of the woods and his were not the same. Paralax is a big issue.

When a child aims a firearm, the only way a parent can have the same view is if the parent is right behind him, not right next to him.

If a hunter had been in my son's line of fire, my position would not have detected it. 

The maturity level of the child is of utmost importance. Passing a law that gives all 12 year olds the right to hunt with a gun is something we need to consider very carefully. Texas is not Michigan. 

With our mass of hunters on Nov 15th, I dont think anyplace is like Michigan....(well...maybe PA).....


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Horseman... I have issues with the manner in which Tabor initiated this bill. I was on the phone to her office the instant it hit the streets and her staff told me that no research went into the proposal....none. I asked for follow up on this from her office. I got absolutely no response.

Something as important as putting firearms in hands of children on Nov 15th should rate at least a look see before being proposed.

Her original proposal was to drop the minimun age altogether. 1st graders with crayons and the attention span of...well a 1st grader, being giving a trigger to pull. Do I think Tabor was lax in her duty to sportsmen by proposing this bill... Yes. I do.

Do I think that someone simply put her up to it and she thought she could get some brownie points? Yes, I do.

Do I think that our elected officials have a duty to be more circumspect in the manner they attempt to make law. I sure do.


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## Huntin Horseman (Nov 2, 2002)

I totally agree with that. I was just saying that I don't think it's right for Gr8scout to say " another harebrained Sue Tabor idea"


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Horse....while I might not have used the "hairbrained" adjective, the "another" is one that I can identify with.

At the time Michigan bowhunters were fighting the crossbow, a committee of organizations and individuals was established by the NRC to address the issue and make recommendations to the NRC... it was referred to as the Ad Hoc Committee. 

Rep Tabor paid a visit to the first meeting and was given the floor prior to the start of discussion, imploring the members to be "open minded" about increasing "opportunity" and then reminding several of the attendees that she had power within the House and they might need her assistance later. 

When asked questions about the deer herd with respect to crossobw introductions, she had done NO background work. Several questions were asked, she couldnt answer and finally the chair of the committee had to rescue her and allow her to remove herself from the situation. She had not done her homework. "Someone" put her up to what she was saying...and she was simply repeating what she was told to say, (imo).

That is not the type of representation I expect from an elected official. She implored us to put crossbows in the bow season with NO background except what she was promted to say.

I think thats a dangerous situation for the electorate.....


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

I also Talked to Rep Tabor's aide (Deb) about my concerns with eliminating the minimum age completely as her original bill suggested. Deb told me it was basically a bargaining chip, to be used during commitee negotiations. Many bill are written with excess baggage that is used to bargin with in negotiations.

Neal


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## The Mutt (Jan 6, 2002)

Glad you found this electronic campfire Dave. Good to have you onboard and I hope you share your wealth of knowledge with everyone here.

P.S. Congrats on being named Camp Director for MSC Camp Wilderness. If anyone can fill Randy's shoes it's you my friend.


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Hi Steve... thanks for the kind words. Randy is definitely a class act and my one saving grace is that I will be using all of Randy's crib notes to carry on the ground breaking work that he did.

Neal.... I understand the part about bargaining chips and excess baggage in proposals, however, I spoke with Tabor's office before they had a chance to do any spin doctoring and damage control.

At the time I spoke with them, it was a major mystery to the staff, they were not really prepared to answer any of my questions, at which point I asked about research. I asked if ANY had been done. She (Deb, I believe) said, and I quote..."well, if any research had been done, I would have been the one to do it, and I havent done any". IMO, the "bargaining chip" reply was developed afterwards.

The bargaining during committee hearings was a fait au complet.... the DNR had squashed the age elimination idea from the get go. With no support from the DNR, there would have been nothing to bargain about. Tabor had to modify the proposal simply to give it a snow balls chance....

The modification is still something I am uncomfortable with, especially after teaching kids about hunter safety for the last decade or so. And also after witnessing some of the debate from adults who continue to favor letting 7 year olds use firearms in the deer woods. I not only have to trust the kids, I have to trust their parents, (whose thought process sometimes scare me).

It will probably boil down to the bill getting reported out of committee and going to the House and Senate. With the Dove bill in the air, I can't image a worse time to start another controversial sportsmen issue, but as some people claim, Sue Tabor knows what she is doing.


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## Gr8 Scout (Oct 27, 2000)

Horseman... I appreciate the  in your post. It is often hard to express here our feelings when we disagree...

I do think this is a harebrained scheme, but it probably is not Rep Tabor who cooked it up. This is another case of her paying off political debt. 

The lady is term-limited; Unless Ms. Tabor is going to get a real job, she'll be facing voters again in the future as she seeks another office. She's gonna need a campaign chest full of dollars and lots of easy votes. That's where we hunters figure in. Republicans do this sorta thing to keep the NRA vote; Democrats do it to satisfy unions. This is a political reality.

Let's really, really look at this issue before we add this to our troubles with the dove hunting bill. Darn, I'd sworn off that topic here in the forums... But how many of these controversies do we need at one time?

I've contacted my Representative about my feelings on both the age issue and dove hunting. Of course, just as you are guessing, my rep is Sue Tabor. 

I wish I hadn't gotten rained out today while squirrel hunting...


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Gr8.... are you going to be supporting Susies run for Senate?


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## Gr8 Scout (Oct 27, 2000)

Get real, pal. Sky is clearing... I'm grabbing my good old Savage combo gun and hitting the woods. 

Nice to meetcha!


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## flyrod4steelhead (Mar 14, 2002)

I would like to see the minimum age lowered to 12, not elminated. I am not up to par with talking to rep's as some of you are here. I would love to be sitting in the wood's with my son at age 12. I would give up some of my hunting time to help my son. Beside's, these kid's are the future of hunting-fishing and all outdoor activities!!


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Dale.. nothing prevents you from taking your child with you now. Take him and teach him.

Lowering the age to allow all 12 year olds who can pass a written test is something we need to think very carefully about.


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## flyrod4steelhead (Mar 14, 2002)

I will and do take him with every chance I get. He shoot's my .22 with out a problem. I agree with you, we do need to think about it. But I feel that kid's will learn, (maybe profit ?) from being able to start hunting at such an early age. What are the ages now 13 to start bow hunting and 14 to start gun hunting? 1-2yrs difference will not hurt.


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Trout...the DNR is considering on line self testing.....does that work for you?


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## DBDalton (Mar 10, 2002)

Fly rod.....12 for bow, 14 for firearm


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## Chuck (Sep 24, 2000)

I understand full heartedly what you are saying DB, but I disagree with you based on the fact that we live in america.

America is about freedom. We live in a free society based on rugged individualismal ideas and values.

If we use your analogy for everything in society it can be taken to extremes. Then we loose our freedoms.

I dont see why some are made to pay becouse a few dont do whats right. Maybe we should ban hunting becouse there are idiots who roam the woods with guns and shoot at anythign that moves, Maybe we should ban guns becouse a crack dealer goes into walmart and buys a gun to kill someone. Maybe no body should be allowed to drive a car ever again becouse they pollute, kill people, and couse so many problems. The list can go on and on & for the "doogooders" it does.

I take my chances now being in the woods during hunitng season, I take my chances when I drive my car on a firday night too. But they are all chances that I feel are worth taking just like I feel its worth taking a chance on my 10 year old nephew if it were legal.


Do you or anyone else have any data to show what kind of increase in accidents may occure if the age is lowered? Is there any statistics showing what percentage of accidents happen to younger aged hunters in states with these laws in place already?

Again I understand your reasons but I feel like they are kinda like when my grandma used to say "get down from that tree your going to fall and brake your neck!" I just kept climbing becouse at that time in my life it was worth taking the chance to see how high I could get.

Im excited by the prospect that my nephew migth have a chance to hunt with me early.


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## twodogsphil (Apr 16, 2002)

Linda, Mutt, DB, etc.

You've been yapping about your concerns for the safety of other hunters including yourselves, yet how many of you hunt in full camo or wear no hunter orange at the same time other hunters are in the woods with firearms? PA, with a high hunter population similar to MI, has mandatory hunter orange for archers who hunt during any time period when firearms hunters are in the field.

If we are truly concerned about safety, and just don't want to keep new hunters out of the woods, perhaps we should start an initiative to have hunter orange requirements similar to PA here in MI.

By the way I'm for lowering the age. Studies show that if kids are'nt introduced to hunting by age 14, they are not going to be part of the sport. If we want hunting to continue as a viable sport, we had better lower the age.

Also, for those who criticize Rep. Tabor for not doing her homework before introducing this legislation, if you do a little checking you will find that MI is one of the minority of states with very restrictive age restrictions preventing kids from hunting legally.


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## Gr8 Scout (Oct 27, 2000)

Apologies to Neal for the 'myopic moron' jab. That was over the line.

It was the story of the nine year old girl shooting a deer that I had read some time ago that set me off. I think that is way, way too young. Hunting is killing. I hate the word 'harvest' and refuse to use it. I think 9 is too young for that. And that father, in my opinion, was just as guilty of stealing his daughter's childhood as the parents who push their kids into other activities. 

Age twelve, maybe 13 with an adult? Small game with shotgun or .22? Yeah. I can back that. I can understand the need, the importance for 'hunter recruitment', and if it is true that kids of that age, that start hunting, stay hunting, good. 

I can be wrong on an issue and change my mind. As for Sue Tabor, seeking votes any way she can get them, well, I keep my opinion of that.


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## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DBDalton _
> *No flak from me on this one......I teach Hunter Safety and I am not in favor of lower the age limits.
> 
> Sue Tabor supposedly listened to some folks who were parroting a rock star's desire to eliminate age restrictions in Michigan to be more like Texas.....
> ...


Give one good reason why it is a bad idea. And for a fair comparison, compare it to Ohio which is a mere 30 miles from me. Been hunting there for years and not seen a problem with it, and as soon as my son can read well enough to understand and take the hunter safety exam he will be hunting with me.


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## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Linda G. _
> -snip
> I've been to several state game areas in Ohio, and hunting on most of them involved checking in and receiving permits to hunt there, so that would also have a check system.
> [/B]


I have hunted EXTENSIVELY in Ohio, and there are plenty of public areas that do not require a permit. It is very similar to the hunting situation here in Southern MI, not only in the availability of property, but in the types of hunting and the game hunted.


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## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gr8 Scout _
> *It was the story of the nine year old girl shooting a deer that I had read some time ago that set me off. I think that is way, way too young. Hunting is killing. I hate the word 'harvest' and refuse to use it. I think 9 is too young for that. And that father, in my opinion, was just as guilty of stealing his daughter's childhood as the parents who push their kids into other activities.
> *


Darn, I hate having got into this so late. Too many posts in a row, but has to be said. 

I grew up on a farm. It was well before my 9th birthday that I was regularly butchering chickens, and rabbits. Do you mean to tell me my parents stole my childhood? I'll take my childhood over what most of my cousins in the burbs had any day. And I'd do it for my son in a second. Killing that deer was a heck of a lot better for her than learning to play any of the myriad of video games that promote wholesale slaughter without consequences. 

Pretty good of you to judge that guy, knowing absolutely nothing about their lives. Ever think that your traditions and expectations aren't necessarily what everyone else wants? I would bet the youngster was mighty proud of her accomplishment and felt in no way like her childhood was robbed.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> Apologies to Neal for the 'myopic moron' jab. That was over the line.


Accepted......I appreciate that. 

FYI~ The language that would eliminate the minimum hunting age, has been removed from the bill. The bill now states that a youth must be at least 12 years old to hunt big game with a firearm.


Neal


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

...and small game?


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

I believe that can hunt small game now with an adult.

Frank, stop by Marinellis tonite....I'll buy you a beer.

Neal


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## Gr8 Scout (Oct 27, 2000)

brdhnter, everyone of every age on a farm has a job. So you did yours. It was a job, a task, something that needed to be done for the welfare of the entire family. 

That in no way relates to the killing of a big game animal as sport, recreation, for a nine year old girl. In my opinion, anyway.

The point appears to be moot, as the proposed legislation has been evolving during the life of this thread. For the better, I think.


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## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gr8 Scout _
> *-snip
> 
> That in no way relates to the killing of a big game animal as sport, recreation, for a nine year old girl. In my opinion, anyway.
> ...


How that girl was affected depends greatly on her upbringing. I feel her father is much better to judge that than I am. If she can handle it, and wants to, no reason for her not to.

Yes, it does appear to be a moot point. As I stated earlier, my son and I will just travel to Ohio when the time is right. Had him in the duck blind on Saturday, and he was sorely disappointed that I forgot his gun. He has a little side by side cap gun that takes small shells with replaceable caps for primers. He's killed many a duck, and deer with it.


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