# Camp Grayling expansion



## swampbuck

Get'nLucky said:


> Agree,
> 
> And staying in a cabin up there and hearing thump thump thump all day isnt gonaa make anyone actually WANT to move there.



Camp grayling is 101 years old, the noise hasn't kept people away so far.


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## brushbuster

I live just a few miles from range 40. It's really not all that bad. I hardly even notice it. On occasion my windows get rattled. No big deal.I love living where i live.
I'd much rather live here than the jungle below.

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## kzoofisher

swampbuck said:


> Camp grayling is 101 years old, the noise hasn't kept people away so far.


Well, it hasn't made it a ghost town. Property values are significantly lower on the Manistee, though it is every bit as good a river as the AS. Realtors will also tell you that shelling and constant machine gun fire are not what you want when you are showing a property. Fisherman don't mind to much because the area is awesome for fishing but I've heard of many lost sales to people who don't hunt or fish but love the woods. West of Kalkaska is more attractive to them. That drives down values away from the river corridors.


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## DLHirst

kzoofisher said:


> Well, it hasn't made it a ghost town. Property values are significantly lower on the Manistee, though it is every bit as good a river as the AS. Realtors will also tell you that shelling and constant machine gun fire are not what you want when you are showing a property. Fisherman don't mind to much because the area is awesome for fishing but I've heard of many lost sales to people who don't hunt or fish but love the woods. West of Kalkaska is more attractive to them. That drives down values away from the river corridors.


Agreed. It's impossible to say whether it has or hasn't kept people away. But, it sure is sparsely populated. And seems to be getting sparser. Maybe that'll make for a bargain property if I am ever ready? able? to retire!


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## kzoofisher

DLHirst said:


> Agreed. It's impossible to say whether it has or hasn't kept people away. But, it sure is sparsely populated. And seems to be getting sparser. Maybe that'll make for a bargain property if I am ever ready? able? to retire!


Talked to a guy this weekend who had looked at a place on the holy waters. Two bdrm, year round home with 125' frontage and three outbuildings including a workshop/barn, all in nice shape. $250K and it hasn't sold in almost a year. Wonder what Grayling will do if their tax base gets lower instead of holding steady with inflation or increasing? Might be a good idea to expand the camp into the state land that borders it to the south.


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## brushbuster

kzoofisher said:


> Talked to a guy this weekend who had looked at a place on the holy waters. Two bdrm, year round home with 125' frontage and three outbuildings including a workshop/barn, all in nice shape. $250K and it hasn't sold in almost a year. Wonder what Grayling will do if their tax base gets lower instead of holding steady with inflation or increasing? Might be a good idea to expand the camp into the state land that borders it to the south.


 Its no secret the realestate market over inflated that area long ago.


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## beer and nuts

Not knowing the house/outbuildings, but 250k for only 125 feet seems right at the high end. River property right now is not in high demand, Higgins lake property is just rebounding a little.


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## kzoofisher

beer and nuts said:


> Not knowing the house/outbuildings, but 250k for only 125 feet seems right at the high end. River property right now is not in high demand, Higgins lake property is just rebounding a little.


True, the area within 30 miles of CG is definitely lagging in the real estate recovery. Things are really starting to pick up for the top of the market on desirable waterfront property around the rest of the state, apparently Higgins lake, the Upper Manistee and the Au Sable aren't all that desirable. 

The camp has a lot of benefits to it, some negatives too, but it is always a bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket. Expanding the camp while protecting tourism is sound economic policy. There are large tracts of state land to the south, lands that currently border the camp and zone 1 of the expansion already moves into these. They do not appear to have any more private inholdings than the proposed zones, maybe even fewer. If there is already mineral development on that land than I would think that makes it more attractive for a change of use than the primarily recreational lands along the rivers. There are no strategic secrets about any of the proposed parcels; complete and detailed satellite images, topographical maps, geological maps, hydrological maps and forestry maps are all available on the web. If the Guard would stop to trying hide its plans and would answer some of the questions it has been asked I'm sure the expansion could proceed pretty quickly and without opposition.


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## beer and nuts

Don't get crazy and just state 30 miles around CG....the only areas picking up in high end markets is the west side of state. Frankly, AuSable/Manistee isn't consider high end, heck it isn't even Higgins. 

The high end market is 1 million plus...and a lot of Lake Michigan high end is popular right now...add Torch lake type lakes too. Higgins is $300-$700,000 type property, while nice, isn't in the same range as the house on the Lake Michigan side that are moving in sales.


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## swampbuck

kzoofisher said:


> True, the area within 30 miles of CG is definitely lagging in the real estate recovery. Things are really starting to pick up for the top of the market on desirable waterfront property around the rest of the state, apparently Higgins lake, the Upper Manistee and the Au Sable aren't all that desirable.
> 
> 
> 
> The camp has a lot of benefits to it, some negatives too, but it is always a bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket. Expanding the camp while protecting tourism is sound economic policy. There are large tracts of state land to the south, lands that currently border the camp and zone 1 of the expansion already moves into these. They do not appear to have any more private inholdings than the proposed zones, maybe even fewer. If there is already mineral development on that land than I would think that makes it more attractive for a change of use than the primarily recreational lands along the rivers. There are no strategic secrets about any of the proposed parcels; complete and detailed satellite images, topographical maps, geological maps, hydrological maps and forestry maps are all available on the web. If the Guard would stop to trying hide its plans and would answer some of the questions it has been asked I'm sure the expansion could proceed pretty quickly and without opposition.



The only issue I see to the south is that it is loaded with oil and gas wells. Lots of them. They might have an issue with that. The beaver creek field is a mile or so south of camp.

That would put it closer to my home. And for the record, I would have no objection to that.


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## 2508speed

swampbuck said:


> The only issue I see to the south is that it is loaded with oil and gas wells. Lots of them. They might have an issue with that. The beaver creek field is a mile or so south of camp.
> 
> That would put it closer to my home. And for the record, I would have no objection to that.


Ditto. I'm on the east side of the lake. My windows rattle now and then, but I at least I can hear my tax dollars working. It's pretty cool to come across a group of soldiers training as you're driving down the dirt roads. Even cooler is when you are ice fishing on Higgins and the Wart Hogs buzz you! Have not seen that in a few years though. Kind of miss it. Heard they are doing away with the Wart Hogs.


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## kzoofisher

Beer,
The housing market is rebounding in lots of places where people want to live. With the still slightly down prices and low interest rates properties are moving pretty quickly all around the state. I know several people who in the last six months have sold a house or or bought one with less than two weeks on the market; in Royal Oak, Schoolcraft, East Grand Rapids, East Lansing and Interlochen. Maybe they could have gotten more but they got what they wanted and what their realtors thought was fair. It's true that only the 1mm+ places have returned to the prices of 2007 but the mid-range properties are going for close to 2004 values, which is a nice profit if you bought twenty years ago or at least enough to let you get into a better fit at a lower rate.

Swamp,
The base already extends into Beaver Creek and the new zone 1 will run south to Higgins Lake and the Missaukee county line and west to S Sharon Rd in Kalkaska. I don't think the wells concern them much.

Some of you keep harping on the noise, but that isn't the complaint. The noise is OK, heck I always liked the Warthogs when they were around here too, it's the danger to the irreplaceable resources of the rivers that is the concern. If the expansion hurts tourism at all it will be a knock to the local economy. How many government jobs will be needed to replace the free enterprise jobs that may be lost? How many jobs are actually coming? All bases close or get cut back sooner or later, what will take it's place if tourism has been reduced? These concerns may not be valid, we can't know though until the Guard provides some information on what its plans are. That is what people are asking for here; information that will allow us to judge the risk to the rest of the economy. Why they need so much river frontage if they don't plan on using the rivers for training is a big question. I'm not 100% against the government providing jobs to boost a local economy, I just need to know what those jobs are and how long they are likely to last. Up North depending on the government is a little more ingrained than it is down here. Believe me when I say that just because the government promises something good for you doesn't mean they'll deliver. The devil is in the details and details are sorely lacking in this expansion.


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## hillbillie

kzoofisher said:


> Swamp,
> The base already extends into Beaver Creek and the new zone 1 will run south to Higgins Lake and the Missaukee county line and west to S Sharon Rd in Kalkaska. I don't think the wells concern them much.
> 
> Some of you keep harping on the noise, but that isn't the complaint. The noise is OK, heck I always liked the Warthogs when they were around here too, it's the danger to the irreplaceable resources of the rivers that is the concern. If the expansion hurts tourism at all it will be a knock to the local economy. How many government jobs will be needed to replace the free enterprise jobs that may be lost? How many jobs are actually coming? All bases close or get cut back sooner or later, what will take it's place if tourism has been reduced? These concerns may not be valid, we can't know though until the Guard provides some information on what its plans are. That is what people are asking for here; information that will allow us to judge the risk to the rest of the economy. Why they need so much river frontage if they don't plan on using the rivers for training is a big question. I'm not 100% against the government providing jobs to boost a local economy, I just need to know what those jobs are and how long they are likely to last. Up North depending on the government is a little more ingrained than it is down here. Believe me when I say that just because the government promises something good for you doesn't mean they'll deliver. The devil is in the details and details are sorely lacking in this expansion.


I couldn't agree with your statement more,my concerns exactly.


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## Scout 2

I can understand your concern and hope none of it comes back to bite us. If they increase the camp usage by 500% that is a lot of money that will come into Grayling and surrounding areas. I would guess that they will have to add a lot of full time jobs to support this. Many units leave their equitment there and most of it is worked on when not in use. As for the real estate being price lower than the areas that were mentioned is lack of jobs. You cannot compare Grayling with the city of Grand Rapids. Where does the base go into Beaver Creek now? I wasn't aware it went that far South. I live straight South of the base and the aircraft fly over our house whenever they are training. Several years ago I was plowing a food plot and the plow started acting funny. I raised it up and I had someones field pack on the point of the plow. It was rotted good. I told my wife I guess all was well as I did not see any bones. I have found many thins I think maybe fell out of a chopper but am still waiting to find an M 16


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## brushbuster

I can appreciate your concern as well Kzoo. I am an avid flyfisherman and love fishing the manistee. It truly is a gem. But, I have to agree with swampbuck on the matter that the military grounds have not affected the lakes and rivers and the communities that are near the current grounds. I think of lonesome lake and how that area is totaly surrounded by board land, one side butts right up to the bombing range. I think of sand lake, the north branch, Still great places to hunt and fish. I think of the guthrie lakes,people still live there, they still buy and sell homes there. Hell the whole town of lovells is practically surrounded by millitary land. I just dont see the doom and gloom.


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## swampbuck

I havnt studied the maps yet, lack of interest really. I am comfortable with whatever they fell they need to use, to do what they need to do. As long as it remains open when not in use. 

From what I have seen over the years and I am 48 yo....I don't have any concerns.


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## kzoofisher

Scout,
You're quite right, the base currently end at the edge of Beaver Creek and is proposed to cover the western half and the eastern third of Garfield twp. give or take a bit. My mistake. The economy has hurt all areas of the state, some are recovering faster than others. Even some in Northern Michigan. I believe that some of what is hurting Crawford is the cut backs on welfare. Many year round residents no longer have a supplement to their unreliable incomes and that makes it harder for them to shop or occasionally go out to eat. This is true all over the state, that doesn't make it hurt local businesses any less. The conventional wisdom is that they need to get better educated and find a job. Unfortunately, that job is likely to be in another area. One poster has pointed out that having babies is a strategy for increasing welfare payments, don't know how true that is and I doubt it is fiscally sound (doesn't mean some don't try it).

As for the base having no negative effects on the area, how can anyone know that? The tax base lost on Lake Margrethe alone is substantial. PILT is hardly a replacement for a free market. Do a search of property values around the county, too. You'll find that the closer you get to the live fire ranges the lower the price per acre goes. Having your windows rattled a few times on Higgins is one thing and doesn't do much to your value. Having knick knacks come right off the shelves 15 miles to the north is a different experience. I'm certain that if the state wanted to do a swap for a chunk of the north shore of Higgins and let someone put a foundry there hat the complaints would be loud and plentiful, jobs or no jobs. It's a tradeoff with the money the base brings in and the value of training that can't be judged monetarily. But it isn't non-existant. I think the quick over-reactions of supporters, hints that those of us concerned want the base closed or the town to disappear, show that the arguments for keeping zones 2,3,4 and 5 as is are weak at best. 

I'm a broken record on this, give us more info so we can judge pros and cons fairly. If the base can expand in a different direction, why not? Where's the harm in that?


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## brushbuster

kzoofisher said:


> Scout,
> You're quite right, the base currently end at the edge of Beaver Creek and is proposed to cover the western half and the eastern third of Garfield twp. give or take a bit. My mistake. The economy has hurt all areas of the state, some are recovering faster than others. Even some in Northern Michigan. I believe that some of what is hurting Crawford is the cut backs on welfare. Many year round residents no longer have a supplement to their unreliable incomes and that makes it harder for them to shop or occasionally go out to eat. This is true all over the state, that doesn't make it hurt local businesses any less. The conventional wisdom is that they need to get better educated and find a job. Unfortunately, that job is likely to be in another area. One poster has pointed out that having babies is a strategy for increasing welfare payments, don't know how true that is and I doubt it is fiscally sound (doesn't mean some don't try it).
> 
> As for the base having no negative effects on the area, how can anyone know that? The tax base lost on Lake Margrethe alone is substantial. PILT is hardly a replacement for a free market. Do a search of property values around the county, too. You'll find that the closer you get to the live fire ranges the lower the price per acre goes. Having your windows rattled a few times on Higgins is one thing and doesn't do much to your value. Having knick knacks come right off the shelves 15 miles to the north is a different experience. I'm certain that if the state wanted to do a swap for a chunk of the north shore of Higgins and let someone put a foundry there hat the complaints would be loud and plentiful, jobs or no jobs. It's a tradeoff with the money the base brings in and the value of training that can't be judged monetarily. But it isn't non-existant. I think the quick over-reactions of supporters, hints that those of us concerned want the base closed or the town to disappear, show that the arguments for keeping zones 2,3,4 and 5 as is are weak at best.
> 
> I'm a broken record on this, give us more info so we can judge pros and cons fairly. If the base can expand in a different direction, why not? Where's the harm in that?


Wow! What a load bull ....
take a look at what the property values were 20 years ago. Then 12 years and then now. Youll find a huge spike 12 years ago. I wonder why my taxes soared then. Or why 10 acre parcels went up to 30 grand when just a few years before i could buy them for 10. Now i can buy them for 15.
Yeah all those people in gaylord and grayling who lost their homes were welfare people and lost their homes due to welfare cuts. 



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## DLHirst

brushbuster said:


> Wow! What a load bull ....
> take a look at what the property values were 20 years ago. Then 12 years and then now. Youll find a huge spike 12 years ago. I wonder why my taxes soared then. Or why 10 acre parcels went up to 30 grand when just a few years before i could buy them for 10. Now i can buy them for 15.
> Yeah all those people in gaylord and grayling who lost their homes were welfare people and lost their homes due to welfare cuts.


Did you quote the wrong post? I don't think I read any of what you state here in the Kzoo post.


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## brushbuster

DLHirst said:


> Did you quote the wrong post? I don't think I read any of what you state here in the Kzoo post.


No it was implied that our tax base was lost due to the military and welfare recipients. Our tax base has dwindled because we boomed and busted. 

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## hillbillie

hillbillie said:


> My personal opinion
> I'd be ok with area 5 if an acceptable buffer was maintained in regards to the N.Branch Ausable River.
> 
> Could the acreage of area 2 be an extension of area 1 into Missaukee Co.? I believe there is about 15 sections available north of the Dead stream swamp.
> 
> Couldn't the acreage of area 3 become an extension of Camp Grayling land to the north and east of range 40
> 
> .



My ideas


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## brushbuster

kzoofisher said:


> Let's remember that this doesn't mean the expansion won't happen, it only means three of the zones are off the table. It was a land expansion of 30% for a training expansion of 500%. I'm sure they could double training, maybe more, with the inclusion of 1 and 4 which is about 40% of the proposed acreage. Maybe some of the locals can propose parcels that would be suitable and we can get the whole thing done. There is still plenty of room to the west of zone 1 and to the east if they can use Fed land and are willing to fragment a bit. Since these were lands outside the fence and across major roads I imagine they planned to transport troops to them anyway. Luzerne, Mio and Fairview need some jobs. Deadstream swamp makes it tough to go further south unless you go east of Higgins. Who's got some ideas?


 Hard to say what the Commanders strategy was for wanting to expand the camp the way he did. Possibly, with that large of an expansion i would imagine he was looking to be diversified with his troop training. Maybe he had intentions of more artillery positions to accomodate more batteries. Mabee he needed more FO. locations. Who knows what his strategic intentions are, so it would be hard to come with ideas to fullfill his unkown strategies.
The county airport just added A1 jet fuel to the airport with intentions of statisfying some military demand as well as civillian. Hard to say what the overall scheme is.
Ill add one more, When i was stationed at Fort Rich AK. The base owned both sides of ship creek.Had a wonderful fishery. We did extensive training on rope bridge making and stream crossing exercises. It was excellent training.


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## beer and nuts

The whole north has changed...it isn't 30 years ago but it isn't a ghetto either. Blame the welfare programs...it's easier to be on welfare than to work, when education is at a minimum. 

At least grayling has the TC traffic keeping it busy. 

And yes I was born in grayling....and grandparents have lived there all their lives...96 year old!!! We have some family history with grayling:lol: and know grayling a little?!


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## brushbuster

beer and nuts said:


> The whole north has changed...it isn't 30 years ago but it isn't a ghetto either. Blame the welfare programs...it's easier to be on welfare than to work, when education is at a minimum.
> 
> At least grayling has the TC traffic keeping it busy.
> 
> And yes I was born in grayling....and grandparents have lived there all their lives...96 year old!!! We have some family history with grayling:lol: and know grayling a little?!


 Like i said no its not a ghetto,and i certainly hope it doesnt turn out like parts of baldwin did.But i certainly see signs of degredation. And yes I do blame the welfare system.


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## rein1

brushbuster said:


> Like i said no its not a ghetto,and i certainly hope it doesnt turn out like parts of baldwin did.But i certainly see signs of degredation. And yes I do blame the welfare system.



Northern Michigan is becoming one big ghetto,, I would venture to say there are more people on welfare then working... except for a few areas that are doing great the rest is going to hell...You can hardly park your car by a trout stream without it bring vandalized by some idiots 




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## beer and nuts

> I would venture to say there are more people on welfare then working...


 Uh OK!?



> You can hardly park your car by a trout stream without it bring vandalized by some idiots


 Never seem to have that problem until the masses arrive during the hex....from downstate!!:lol:


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## swampbuck

rein1 said:


> Northern Michigan is becoming one big ghetto,, I would venture to say there are more people on welfare then working... except for a few areas that are doing great the rest is going to hell...You can hardly park your car by a trout stream without it bring vandalized by some idiots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire



Bull s##t !

A quick check of our court reports will clearly show that a disproportionate amount of crime in our area is committed by criminals from the SLP,, It has always and continues to be that way.


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## grouse25

I've parked next to a northern Michigan trout stream 500+ times the past 15 years and have never been vandalized or broke into... Knock on wood lol. 


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## Joe Bondroff

Just watched ABC12 and Camp Grayling is also the training site for foreign military personnel. I have been chasing trout on the Manistee mainly, but occassionally the Au Sable, and several other areas without incident for over 20 years. I have witnessed the decline of the area businesses and also the occasional new business pop up. You will find this true in most northern communities. As the economy of southern Michigan expands or contracts the economies of the northern communities will do the same. As the auto industry declined in southern Michigan, the "brain drain" of our young people to other states, and the decline in the interest of outdoor activities by our youth replaced by the virtual world, the people are not vacationing in Northern Michigan as they once did. I do not have data to back this opinion, however, I just do not see the numbers I once saw when I was a teen. 

The trout fishing has also declined since I was a teen. I could catch 20-30 trout of various sizes, brookies, browns, and rainbows, and count that as a glorious day on the water. Today I am lucky to catch one small trout or even see it chasing a fly or spinner. I do not get up there as often as I used to before having my family and finances are tighter than they used to be. Due to this fact maybe I do not know what I am talking about. I love the town of Grayling and my heart ached every time I had to come home to southern Michigan. I hope better days are in our future, "prosperity is right around the corner--Herbert Hoover."

Am I wrong in this opinion? Please advise!


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## Waz_51

You are right about foreign military personnel training there... We trained with members of the Canadian Army, as well as a few other countries... It was pretty neat interacting with our foreign counterparts, but we always got jealous over how much cooler their camo patterns looked, LOL!


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## swampbuck

Foreign ally's have been training here for decades.


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## 2508speed

If anyone has an inclination to be a movie star, you should apply at the Grayling Base. They are hiring people to train our military in hostile situations. You will be trained to act like terrorists or act like people involved in civil disobedience. No live ammunition will be used. It's about a 2 month gig. Who knows, you could be the next Rambo. About 15.00 an hour.


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## Scout 2

2508speed said:


> If anyone has an inclination to be a movie star, you should apply at the Grayling Base. They are hiring people to train our military in hostile situations. You will be trained to act like terrorists or act like people involved in civil disobedience. No live ammunition will be used. It's about a 2 month gig. Who knows, you could be the next Rambo. About 15.00 an hour.


You forgot to mention that if you get caught they beat the h### out of you and then practice new pain methods on you to get you to talk:lol:


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## kzoofisher

Joe Bondroff said:


> The trout fishing has also declined since I was a teen. I could catch 20-30 trout of various sizes, brookies, browns, and rainbows, and count that as a glorious day on the water. Today I am lucky to catch one small trout or even see it chasing a fly or spinner. I do not get up there as often as I used to before having my family and finances are tighter than they used to be. Due to this fact maybe I do not know what I am talking about. I love the town of Grayling and my heart ached every time I had to come home to southern Michigan. I hope better days are in our future, "prosperity is right around the corner--Herbert Hoover."
> 
> Am I wrong in this opinion? Please advise!


You're not wrong, at least for your own experiance. Two factors though, first you might be remembering the good days more than the bad ones and second you make it fewer days so you have less chance to hit the great days. My number of really good days has gone way up since my kids have reached double digit years. Keep fishing and you'll get back into them. 

I love the sound of these acting jobs. I know I would have been all over that if I could get it as a summer job when I was young. Would have beat the heck out of washing dishes.


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## scubajay

With the expanded range I can now test missile countermeasure systems in Michigan rather than taking my money and my test crew to Yuma, or White Sands, or Redstone, or Aberdeen, or EMRTC, etc.


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## fishagain

swampbuck said:


> Foreign ally's have been training here for decades.


We still have Ally's? :sad:


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## hillbillie

fishagain said:


> We still have Ally's? :sad:



:Modified_


Spelling enforcements are in affect :help:


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## TimBuckTwo

Many of my grouse covers border Camp Grayling so I'm hesitant. But I support out troops, I'll find somewhere else if needed. Plenty of cover up there.


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## brookie1

TimBuckTwo said:


> Many of my grouse covers border Camp Grayling so I'm hesitant. But I support out troops, I'll find somewhere else if needed. Plenty of cover up there.


Old news now, but read post 94 on this thread.


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## Perch_King

brushbuster said:


> *You dont have to come up here.Its an f'ing military town. Find another place to relax.*
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Ohub Campfire mobile app


 
You sir are spot on. Welcome to quite a few locals sentiments about people who don't live here having an opinion about what should happen with land they visit one week a year. It's the same as the oil industry. Most people who oppose fracking and the oil industry in general are the ones who know absolutely nothing about it. They have no idea that some 26,000 wells in the state have been fracked from day one. Since the 30's mind you. I'm one of the hugest proponents that people should hunt and fish the county they live in full time.


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## swampbuck

Perch_King said:


> You sir are spot on. Welcome to quite a few locals sentiments about people who don't live here having an opinion about what should happen with land they visit one week a year. It's the same as the oil industry. Most people who oppose fracking and the oil industry in general are the ones who know absolutely nothing about it. They have no idea that some 26,000 wells in the state have been fracked from day one. Since the 30's mind you. I'm one of the hugest proponents that people should hunt and fish the county they live in full time.



Well said, and we have a bunch of fracked wells here also, and no problem with those either.


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## Perch_King

swampbuck said:


> Well said, and we have a bunch of fracked wells here also, and no problem with those either.


Exactly. Every well you see in the area has been fracked at one point in its life. I can assure you of that. My livelyhood has nothing to do with tourism. That being said I'm not sympathetic or cordial towards vacationers that aren't deserving.


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## 2508speed

Perch_King said:


> Exactly. Every well you see in the area has been fracked at one point in its life. I can assure you of that. My livelyhood has nothing to do with tourism. That being said I'm not sympathetic or cordial towards vacationers that aren't deserving.


Don't know where you live Perch King or where you make your living, but most of the money in taxes in the Higgins Lake area comes from absentee property owners. Every time we have a property millage vote the cabin owners pay. They have no vote. I'm here because I used to work and live downstate and loved it up here. Vacationers have a very big say up here! Just collect your oil well money Perch King and be quiet. By the way, I'm homesteaded here and always vote. Do you vote here Perch King, or just take the money and run?


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## MIflyfish

I was just driving through the area and saw a convoy of four Ford trucks (F-250s mostly) that were covered in black fabric wrap. There were markings indicating that it is a federal government vehicle, and that it is not for hire, but that was all. No indication of their purpose. If it was National Guard, why hide the markings on the vehicle? Anyone know what's up with that? The drivers were bearded and looked more like Blackwater employees than infantry.


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## swampbuck

Something's are best left unknown


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## MIflyfish

Thinking about it more, I suspect maybe the military was testing Ford trucks that haven't been revealed yet. They do their own internal testing regularly, but I suppose this is how they would have to go about it for military specific trucks. Kind of cool to see.


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## Perch_King

2508speed said:


> Don't know where you live Perch King or where you make your living, but most of the money in taxes in the Higgins Lake area comes from absentee property owners. Every time we have a property millage vote the cabin owners pay. They have no vote. I'm here because I used to work and live downstate and loved it up here. Vacationers have a very big say up here! Just collect your oil well money Perch King and be quiet. By the way, I'm homesteaded here and always vote. Do you vote here Perch King, or just take the money and run?



Where I live is really none of your business. I do however vote here but not down in Roscommon county or where ever it is where you live. As far as just be quiet; you can shove it. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by just collect your oil money and run. If by run, you must mean to nowhere. I've lived in northern lower Michigan my entire life. All of my taxes, time, and energy has been in the northern lower. Despite what you may think or feel graylings economy would benefit from any expansion of the camp. Even if a few part time guys lose some acres.


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