# How many fools...



## langkg (Oct 26, 2004)

I guess I'm a bit old fashioned too. I have no desire for an AR at all. BUT! Do I defend my brothers that want one - YOU BET!. It's the same damn gun that half my gun safe is filled with. What's wrong with a semi auto rifle? OHHHHH.... but it has a scary looking picatinny rail on it! It looks just like a military rifle! - it must be an ASSAULT weapon..!!.. ***. The ignorance of people in this country scares the $%(! out of me. I can get a drum mag for a .22 Ruger that half the kids in this country own one. Who cares! OH - but a 30 round mag for an AR..!!!... WELL YOU'RE THE DEVIL!!!

Well, not only am I old fashioned in that I like guns of all kinds with pretty wood stocks but I'm now confused as hell becuase I don't understand why all of a sudden there is a difference between my pretty old guns and the same damn thing that has a composite stock..!!! 

OK - so say the ban all AR's and put a restriction on mags... say to 3 rounds or 5 rounds. You think that's going to stop some dumb *** going into a school and shooting the place up??? I don't think so but I'm just a simple guy. 

Typical of the government - try the most simple approach. Look at CAFE laws with autos. Government in action. When's the last time you saw a government initiative to make "smart" traffic lights? How many gallons of gas are wasted daily with people sitting at lights for no reason? Well, golly, that would require some government initiative. Easier to go after the big evil automobile companies and make the figure out how to reduce gas consumption.

Sorry for the rant - just tired of the on going BS. I just wish people in government would become responsible but clearly those days are way long gone.





sswhitelightning said:


> I don't know much about ar and ar equipment but a few weeks ago there was a guy selling dual 30 round attachments so 60 rounds fed into fully auto ar's that he also had parts to make "your" ar a full auto. This was at gun and knife show. If I had 2k I may have had a better Sunday afternoon. Hell one guy had custom made suppressors for most caliber rifles as well. I guess gen pop wouldn't like this either.
> 
> To Limge do I need this no, is it awesome, yes. Do I fault anyone who wants one that is responsible, nope. I agree ar has come long way to making a accurate predator gun at distances, I have considered them, but call me old fashioned I am pretty quick ,accurate, and love my bolts. But I also like cowboy rifles and cowboy pistols.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

I was one of those fools. Never cared to own personally. Carried one for 4 years in the Marine Corps Infantry though. With this last shooting and the fact that the democraps and Oblamer are in control of the Senate, I felt if I was going to get one, now is the time and could be my only time to own one. I am glad I grabbed a ton of 30 round magazines from the Corps when I got out!! I am loving my Colt M4. I also bought a 1,000 rounds of .223 with my gun and finally took it out shooting the other day. I forgot how fun they are to shoot! She will be my new Yote' and ground hog gun. Now, it is just trying to figure out what scope to put on it...


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## sswhitelightning (Dec 14, 2004)

WoW. said:


> I retired my 77V when I got my first AR.
> 
> As far as more accurate--perhaps but, you need to shoot one of my AR's and tell me that you can shoot better with your bolt gun.


Haha lee, I couldn't tell you any different. Hell I think I have Parkinson's in the early stages anyhow. I shake and twitch like a leaf quite a bit. I'm going on a limb but I believe for target and hunting over the years the bolt proves more accurate and reliable. i could Not prove that by any means. But that's a argument for another forum. I don't have a ar but I wouldn't mind owning one or shooting one.

Retired ducker is right, I preach all the time I'm gonna grab my snub nose pump 12 gauge before I have to grab my pistol in a home invasion. It's like a mouse, points, clicks, and eats through anything. I do follow your logic, but many will argue if we settle by restricting the amount clips hold we are compromising are own rights as gun owners. We all know that any wild person can take lives with a full auto or a single shot with practice or the right environment. I always think of places like Times Square on New Years how easy it would be for a crazy person to open up on people shoulder to shoulder for blocks. Even a simple knife fight could take many lives. But I realize the majority of us gun owners understand that. Lots of bad people in the world who make things complicated as a result.


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

We have to balance our rights and the fun one can have busting a bunch of caps with the possibility that one can be used to create carnage...an AR with capacity of 8 or 9 is going to inflict fewer deaths than one holding thirty or more...reloading leaves the shooter vulnerable...our kids are worth a little of our cooperation are they not?


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

Retiredducker said:


> We have to balance our rights and the fun one can have busting a bunch of caps with the possibility that one can be used to create carnage...an AR with capacity of 8 or 9 is going to inflict fewer deaths than one holding thirty or more...reloading leaves the shooter vulnerable...our kids are worth a little of our cooperation are they not?


Statistically we have lost 45 kids to child abuse and neglect since Sandy Hook. Seems to me if we are worried about keeping kids safe, we should start there. Alcohol leads to 3x as many deaths as guns each year and is not "necesary" why is nobody trying to go after it? None of the law makers are talking about any of that. Either they are irrationale, just plain stupid or trying the power play to get rid of guns to enslave us.

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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

I have harped about alcohol on FB for days..pointing out how regulations have not kept drunks off the road...and that all the judges, lawyers, politicians, etc want to have their drug of choice. Having said that...I still believe it possible to strike middle ground on this by limiting the capacity to some degree. Definitely there are those out there who would love to use this as a stepping stone to a total gun ban, but I think the vast majority out there are not after our duck guns or home defense guns.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

I read in the paper this morning that a guy got arrested for killing a woman with a vehicle. It kept repeating vehicle.

How come it didn't say assault vehicle or a black Ford? Did it have a big engine or a small one.

Our perspectives on things are being skewed by the liberal media that is preying on the ignorant.

People need to look at the big picture to see where this once great nation is headed. It is easy to see, the immense amount if instant media (especially misinformation) has an adverse effect on all of us.

BTW: How many of you have read that an assault rifle was NOT used in the school massacre? But because that is what people said, they are flying off the shelves. I just looked at the Dunhams sale flyer and I gotta believe that those Bushy's they are advertising will not be available but one has to wonder if they will be issuing rain checks.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

langkg said:


> I guess I'm a bit old fashioned too.
> .


 
Technology has its advantages. Some people have the latest and greatest new fangled gadget and others don't.

Look at muzzleloader technology for example.


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## hawgeye (Mar 3, 2011)

You kidding? I can change a 10 round clip in a second. Low capacity mags dont mean crap. There are 300 million registered gun owners in the usa, i guess we should screw all them around because of a few nut jobs. I cant beleave the amount of sportsman supporting this. You should be assamed of yourselfs. Next you be sucking on petas teet too! And any gun owner agrees to any kind of ban you better plan loosing your other guns and pistols. Take the blinders off look at the others countrys that started banning assult rifles, most dont have any guns now. Support your brothers not the antis, this is usa, wanna live without guns move to the uk. And all you guys that say " if they come to get my guns theyll have a fight bla bla bla", they did it succsesfully in other countrys, i doubt many would chose death or prison to keep there guns. I know these shootings are trajec. I would love to see some of our militry ( not sivilians) come home and protect our schools instead of in other countrys. Or use our national gaurd, acctivate 100,000 ng on the second.

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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

Retiredducker said:


> I have harped about alcohol on FB for days..pointing out how regulations have not kept drunks off the road...and that all the judges, lawyers, politicians, etc want to have their drug of choice. Having said that...I still believe it possible to strike middle ground on this by limiting the capacity to some degree. Definitely there are those out there who would love to use this as a stepping stone to a total gun ban, but I think the vast majority out there are not after our duck guns or home defense guns.


Yet. 

What you want to say is "they're not after our duck guns, yet"

Although, I've seen bans that include "all semi-automatics"...is your duck gun a semi- automatic? 

But beyond all that - your Second Amendment RIGHTS aren't about duck guns or deer rifles. It's not about "sporting guns" or even weapons kept for self defense.
It's about having the ability as citizens of the United States of America, to prevent the tyranny of our own government.

And that scares the hell out of our government.

And a government that wants to strip my rights scares the hell out of me.

"Those that would trade essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety"


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## chemo13 (May 10, 2006)

TSS Caddis said:


> I think this time around buying is warranted because it seems a future ban is a lock. Only saving grace will be if they r still messing with the fiscal cliff come January. The longer congress and the president are distracted from gun legislation the better. Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


I don't think it's a lock. I spoke to my sis who was a senior lobbyist for Smith and Wesson (changed companies few years ago). She was telling me that an assault weapons ban would be pretty watered down. Dems in rual districts, or in rual western states (think Harry Reid) won't touch it as they would fear a push back from constituents. Your right the longer this goes on the better for "pro-gun" side. 

But then again she knows the guy (Clement) that argued the health care bill in the Supreme Court and he told her that it wouldn't stand so, anythings possible, but I don't think it's a lock. 

I would like to see some loopholes closed, and background checks. What about having to have three references when buying a gun? One of which would have to be a gun owner. References would have total immunity if someone goes off the deep end. 

Having someone, especially a fellow gun owner vouch for you would prevent nut jobs such as the VT shooter, or some mommy who wants bonding time with her nutty son.


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## sswhitelightning (Dec 14, 2004)

KLR said:


> Yet.
> 
> What you want to say is "they're not after our duck guns, yet"
> 
> ...


Yup. I love my kids as well as any person I meet. Their lives are worth no bullet, but I don't think sacrificing my gun rights like Klr just stated is the answer.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> Good luck cuz they won't be for sale long. Saw a video on the news the other day where they put a slide stock on an off the shelf AR and were showing automatic fire. 20 kids dead, and now they are showing a civilian AR throwing out 30 empties in just a few seconds. Makes for an up hill battle that we probably won't win.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


It's a stock that moves with the recoil of the gun and when it moves, it activates the trigger mechanically. It is NOT auto, the trigger is being pulled for each and every shot. But it is fast! Fast enough that it can seem like a full auto gun.

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## woody95 (Jan 4, 2008)

Don't be so sure the stores are sold out. An old retailer trick is to stash them and only bring out 2 at a time. Creates a psuedo demand pull which raises prices more. I know these things are selling like gang busters, but supply n demand dictates price. By doing this they can make 3x msrp. (not saying any retailer mentioned is doing this) just talking text book theory.

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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

woody95 said:


> Don't be so sure the stores are sold out. An old retailer trick is to stash them and only bring out 2 at a time. Creates a psuedo demand pull which raises prices more. I know these things are selling like gang busters, but supply n demand dictates price. By doing this they can make 3x msrp. (not saying any retailer mentioned is doing this) just talking text book theory.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I suggest you check out Gunbroker auctions if you want to see something interesting.

One of my FFL buddies waited on hold for over 45 minutes with the Feds to complete a NICS the other day...they told him they've been jammed up like you wouldn't believe.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Swamp Monster said:


> It's a stock that moves with the recoil of the gun and when it moves, it activates the trigger mechanically. It is NOT auto, the trigger is being pulled for each and every shot. But it is fast! Fast enough that it can seem like a full auto gun.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I know exactly how they work. How automatic fire is mimicked doesn't make a difference. The public see's a video of 30 rounds going off in a few seconds.


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## T.J. (Mar 1, 2009)

Retiredducker said:


> We have to balance our rights and the fun one can have busting a bunch of caps with the possibility that one can be used to create carnage...an AR with capacity of 8 or 9 is going to inflict fewer deaths than one holding thirty or more...reloading leaves the shooter vulnerable...our kids are worth a little of our cooperation are they not?


Ur under the assumption that the killer will obay gun laws. If someone came into that school with a sword and knew how to use it just as many people will die. It matters not what wepon is used.

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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

TSS Caddis said:


> IMO, good legislation can stand on its own and shouldn't need the emotion of the moment to pass. There was the same rush on AR's happened 4 years ago with no ban ever coming, I think this time around buying is warranted because it seems a future ban is a lock. Only saving grace will be if they r still messing with the fiscal cliff come January. The longer congress and the president are distracted from gun legislation the better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk



Spot on.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

This horiffic event is still dominating the news cycle. And it won't be usurped anytime soon, something will happen that will remove it as a lead story - unless it's another shooting.

I do find it interesting that the media has no problem infringing upon second amendment rights, but there is no talk about limiting first amendment rights. Clearly these perps are seeking the notoriety they can get in the media on a national level. I'll bet they would have never even thought of such an act on their own but for being a copycat. Perhaps it's time to limit the coverage to a "ban" on covering these events. Total black- out. Sounds familiar doesn't it. 

If we keep chipping away at the Constitution there will be nothing left. Doing the above along with the NRA's suggestion of armed guards in every school (not far fetched BTW, look at Air Marshalls on every flight now), it 
seems we're moving ever closer to a police state.


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## gooseman (Jul 24, 2006)

John Singer said:


> ...are buying ARs, AKs, and ammo that they cannot afford?
> 
> I heard an interview with some guy that was saving money to purchase a car but decided to by an AR and ammo instead.
> 
> I get the feeling that there will be some deals to be had in a few weeks after the Christmas and AR bills come due.


Just might be the best investment they ever made! Bottom line is we can't let the liberals get a threshold on this. 

Before long and piece by piece they aim to Strip your freedom right from underneath you without you even knowing. Checks and balances need to be in place or a puppet show is inevitable. My heart and prayers go out to those victimized. But as many have said guns don't kill people.....people kill people. Just imagine if the gun free zones would have permitted a teacher or superintendent THAT WAS LEGALLY TRAINED AND LICENSED to carry? The outcome more than likely would have been better. There are many many good, responsible, common sense civilians out there. If the creeps were made aware by common knowledge that there was a very good chance they would face someone to stop them quickly, different decisions would be made. More than likely for the better. There are only so many lawman available, and there are many level headed Americans that if it can down to it would risk their lives to save many others.


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

You must be joking...you must be pretty good with a sword...tell the parent who's kid was killed with the 30th or 50th bullet that it doesn't matter. At least if a clip has to be changed...it offers a bit of opportunity for others to respond or at the least for more to escape...

Having said this I fully support a policeman placed in schools and your right to own a semi-auto rifle of your choice...but I stand behind my feelings about high capacity magazines...they won't do you any good against tanks etc...if this govt you fear so much actually came at you...


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> I know exactly how they work. How automatic fire is mimicked doesn't make a difference. The public see's a video of 30 rounds going off in a few seconds.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


You didn't say "mimic" in your post I quoted, you said automatic fire. Saying inaccuracies makes one no better than the bimbo on MSNBC. I figured you knew how they work but others may not so I set the record straight. 

I know what it looks like to non gum owners but the least we can do is explain it's operation without perpetuating all the.misleading bs that already exists.

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## T.J. (Mar 1, 2009)

Retiredducker said:


> You must be joking...you must be pretty good with a sword...tell the parent who's kid was killed with the 30th or 50th bullet that it doesn't matter. At least if a clip has to be changed...it offers a bit of opportunity for others to respond or at the least for more to escape...
> 
> Having said this I fully support a policeman placed in schools and your right to own a semi-auto rifle of your choice...but I stand behind my feelings about high capacity magazines...they won't do you any good against tanks etc...if this govt you fear so much actually came at you...


swords worked hundreds of years ago. but that wasn't relay my point. my point was more of the intent of the sick person willing to kill innocent. weapons are not the issue. the 4 seconds it take to swap mags will make no difference. someone willing to do something like this will find high cap mags on the black market created buy banning such mags any way. you can make all the laws u want u can ban all guns the gov can confiscate all guns. this **** will still go down and likely become more common. we live in a society that is out of touch with reality. i wish something as simple as banning high cap mags would make a difference but the problem is much larger.


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

It will take a multi-faceted approach...all areas need a full examination. I have thought alor about this...one thing not mentioned would be just a more thorough look at folks buying guns. YOu can't deny they fall into the wrong hands. Millions of guns are in the hands of underage gangbangers in our cities and to some extent in small towns. This is such a serious matter that a bit of time taken before the purchase of a gun that allows for an actual analysis of the buyer's background with the purpose of uncovering motives & possible personality issues could be worthwhile. Nothing to fear if you are a legitimate buyer....no 2nd amendment issue involved. A national register showing any mental health issues could be incorporated.


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## T.J. (Mar 1, 2009)

Retiredducker said:


> It will take a multi-faceted approach...all areas need a full examination. I have thought alor about this...one thing not mentioned would be just a more thorough look at folks buying guns. YOu can't deny they fall into the wrong hands. Millions of guns are in the hands of underage gangbangers in our cities and to some extent in small towns. This is such a serious matter that a bit of time taken before the purchase of a gun that allows for an actual analysis of the buyer's background with the purpose of uncovering motives & possible personality issues could be worthwhile. Nothing to fear if you are a legitimate buyer....no 2nd amendment issue involved. A national register showing any mental health issues could be incorporated.


I see ur point. But Under age gang bangers aint buying guns over the counter. Those that would be denied a gun legal will get one illegaly bad guys dont play buy the rules. Id like to think it will help but it just wont. 

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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

You think there is nothing we can do to tighten up a system that allows so many illegals to get guns? I mean criminals and underage types. There have to be ways of ensuring the gun legitimately purchased does not fall into the wrong hands. I think it is wrong if anyone can walk through a gun show and make a purchase without a background check regardless of the type of weapon involved. You really don't want to unknowingly sell to someone with violent or criminal motives do you?

This is an area where gun owners can look good...in policing ourselves..and supporting reasonable sale/transfer procedures.


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## rentalrider (Aug 8, 2011)

Retiredducker said:


> It will take a multi-faceted approach...all areas need a full examination. I have thought alor about this...one thing not mentioned would be just a more thorough look at folks buying guns. YOu can't deny they fall into the wrong hands. Millions of guns are in the hands of underage gangbangers in our cities and to some extent in small towns. This is such a serious matter that a bit of time taken before the purchase of a gun that allows for an actual analysis of the buyer's background with the purpose of uncovering motives & possible personality issues could be worthwhile. Nothing to fear if you are a legitimate buyer....no 2nd amendment issue involved. A national register showing any mental health issues could be incorporated.


Probably not that simple, although I'm not disagreeing. I would imagine any "non-violent" mental health diagnosed individuals are going to say they are being discriminated against. Certainly don't want to add to the number of individuals with these illnesses avoiding diagnosis/treatment. Remember that most/all using these weapons in crimes fall into this category of being (at least) emotionally disturbed. I would like to know how many criminals obtained their weapons legally, that's the only # you might impact. I'm rambling. I'm tired of this and know we're gonna get screwed by it in the end. And when I say "end", I mean it.


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## T.J. (Mar 1, 2009)

Retiredducker said:


> You think there is nothing we can do to tighten up a system that allows so many illegals to get guns? I mean criminals and underage types. There have to be ways of ensuring the gun legitimately purchased does not fall into the wrong hands. I think it is wrong if anyone can walk through a gun show and make a purchase without a background check regardless of the type of weapon involved. You really don't want to unknowingly sell to someone with violent or criminal motives do you?
> 
> This is an area where gun owners can look good...in policing ourselves..and supporting reasonable sale/transfer procedures.


It will all be in vain. If someone wants a gun there gonna get it. Im not willing to give an inch knowing anti gun will take a mile. Politicians dont give a **** about our kids there using the tragedy to gain ground in the publics eye for more gun control. 

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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

Retiredducker said:


> A national register showing any mental health issues could be incorporated.


You mean mental health issues like laying on your back in a field full of mosquitos in September waiting for geese?

How about going out in a layout boat and trying to gun little itty bitty birds that don't always taste all that great?

Or, busting ice and/or trying to keep a hole open to shoot a slightly bigger duck that makes alot of noise when it comes in?

Or, people that are willing to drive half way across these United States to lay out in a field to shoot sky carp?

All waterfowlers (except tennis shoe hunters) have mental health issues don't they? Who is gonna be the judge---the gummit? Right....


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

T.J. said:


> I see ur point. But Under age gang bangers aint buying guns over the counter. Those that would be denied a gun legal will get one illegaly bad guys dont play buy the rules. Id like to think it will help but it just wont.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Unfortunately one of the rules allows bad guys (convicted felons, adjudicated mentally incompetent, illegal aliens, those on the terrorist watch list, etc) to purchase firearms (Google: Gun Show Loophole).


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## Timber (Jan 1, 2009)

It doesn't matter what laws are in place, these mass shooting will happen again. And the far left will push for more laws that make no sense. A gun is a gun sometimes they fall into the hands of the wrong people, always have always will. This only leaves the criminals and the government with these guns ifthey ban them

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## stackemup (Oct 31, 2011)

Timber said:


> It doesn't matter what laws are in place, these mass shooting will happen again. And the far left will push for more laws that make no sense. A gun is a gun sometimes they fall into the hands of the wrong people, always have always will. This only leaves the criminals and the government with these guns ifthey ban them
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


And that is the reason why you don't give an inch in this whole discussion. The minute you give the other side some momentum, it will snowball so fast. There are bad people in this world, always has been always will. The hope is that good people will always outnumber and out gun the bad


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

John Singer said:


> Unfortunately one of the rules allows bad guys (convicted felons, adjudicated mentally incompetent, illegal aliens, those on the terrorist watch list, etc) to purchase firearms (Google: Gun Show Loophole).


 
I'm sorry, but there is no other way to say it than...you are mistaken.

Rules don't allow per se, they prohibit.

In any event, these felons know damned good and well that they are violating the law so, why don't you just say it, criminals, whackos,* illegal *aliens and potential or actual terrorists will get guns, either at gun shows or off the street (or from our government). Geesh...


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

WoW. said:


> I'm sorry, but there is no other way to say it than...you are mistaken.
> 
> Rules don't allow per se, they prohibit.
> 
> In any event, these felons know damned good and well that they are violating the law so, why don't you just say it, criminals, whackos,* illegal *aliens and potential or actual terrorists will get guns, either at gun shows or off the street (or from our government). Geesh...


Do support these people having guns?


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## Timber (Jan 1, 2009)

stackemup said:


> And that is the reason why you don't give an inch in this whole discussion. The minute you give the other side some momentum, it will snowball so fast. There are bad people in this world, always has been always will. The hope is that good people will always outnumber and out gun the bad


I do give an inch, i support the 2nd amendment always have and always will. One day the thugs/government same difference may come for them and ill be ready. 

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## stackemup (Oct 31, 2011)

I agree with you we all need to be vigilant. One group wants because they don't have, and the others (politicians) want only to control.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

slippery slope. i'm not giving an inch because they will go after it all eventually if you give them something. i want them(anti's) to lose every chance they take.


criminals are criminals because they don't follow rules, laws and dont have morals. bans or making something illegal does not apply to them...


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

Free people understood.

Unfortunately, the learning experience seems to have been lost through the generations.


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't fear the slippery slope theory as much as many of you. We regulate liquor with all sorts of rules, but they aren't trying to ban it...there has to be a way to lessen the chances of the guns falling into the wrong hands...and that is what this is all about...WHO has the guns not WHICH guns..any gun in the wrong hands is a problem. It's like saying "well, all kids will drink so why restrict liquor at all by law?"...we try our best...but I don't think we are trying our best here...it has to start with the manufacturer selling to the distrubutors...there are some with awfully poor track records yet they stay in business...same with retailers...get caught in these "straw" sales and pay a simple fine and stay in business. These are the guns ending up on the streets...surely we can do better in this area...I am not sure about the gun show rules...can anyone purchase a handgun from an individual without a permit to purchase? I don't think so but could be wrong...how about background checks as are required at gun shops?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Retiredducker said:


> I don't fear the slippery slope theory as much as many of you. We regulate liquor with all sorts of rules, but they aren't trying to ban it...there has to be a way to lessen the chances of the guns falling into the wrong hands...and that is what this is all about...WHO has the guns not WHICH guns..any gun in the wrong hands is a problem. It's like saying "well, all kids will drink so why restrict liquor at all by law?"...we try our best...but I don't think we are trying our best here...it has to start with the manufacturer selling to the distrubutors...there are some with awfully poor track records yet they stay in business...same with retailers...get caught in these "straw" sales and pay a simple fine and stay in business. These are the guns ending up on the streets...surely we can do better in this area...I am not sure about the gun show rules...can anyone purchase a handgun from an individual without a permit to purchase? I don't think so but could be wrong...how about background checks as are required at gun shops?


absolutely horrible analogy. but thanks for trying.

I'll be straight with you. my gun right has nothing to do with kids getting killed. so why are you trying to take them from me?


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

Too much arrogance on your part Kid to summarily decide who is correct here...your opinion matters no more to me than any others...sorry but you are not thinking this through and the alcohol comparison is spot on...both dealing with items that if used improperly kill innocent people..


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

Did not say a word about taking your guns...talking here about being very careful who gets them in the first place...


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I don't remember the right to drink liquor being a part of our constitution.....


Merry Christmas.

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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Retiredducker said:


> Did not say a word about taking your guns...talking here about being very careful who gets them in the first place...


Again, your messing with a constitutional right. If you want to make some changes on how we handle mental illnesses, im all ears. Making it harder for law abiding people attain, own guns is not the answer. Giving a concession to the anti-gun crowd now because some looney shot a public place up...sorry, i think its a complete cop out to the real problem. 

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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

Not messing with a right...have not said anything about preventing our right to purchase and own firearms...the discussion is about the process of aquiring these guns and the subsequent trade, sale,, etc. The issue always comes down to HOW did a criminal get a gun...and that is what we all need to be willing to work on...


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

Retiredducker said:


> Not messing with a right...have not said anything about preventing our right to purchase and own firearms...the discussion is about the process of aquiring these guns and the subsequent trade, sale,, etc. The issue always comes down to HOW did a criminal get a gun...and that is what we all need to be willing to work on...


I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. A "bad guy" will be able to get a gun no matter what laws are passed just like a minor can get alcohol no matter what laws are in place. Any new laws that will be put in place because of this are only going to be "feel good laws". They will make some groups feel better because we did something, but in reality they will have no effect other than to piss some groups off. You could say ban ALL guns, but even that wouldn't work. Look at prohibition.

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## Timber (Jan 1, 2009)

Take one here take one there, pretty soon they will be trying to take everything. Schools need more security, plain an simple. 

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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Timber said:


> Take one here take one there, pretty soon they will be trying to take everything. Schools need more security, plain an simple.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thank you. This exactly how it works. Bend a little now and 20 years down the road it goes on to somethin else. Slippery slope.

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## maddiedog (Nov 21, 2008)

Evil is evil and there are no laws that will change it. There were four people on this earth and one was murdered! 

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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

Don't agree that an inch always leads to a mile...reasonable people will prevail...anyway Merry Christmas to all of you..


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## Timber (Jan 1, 2009)

Retiredducker said:


> Don't agree that an inch always leads to a mile...reasonable people will prevail...anyway Merry Christmas to all of you..


Merry x-mas to you also. Lot of different opinions. Make it very hard to fix, if it even can be fixed. Agree with reasonable people as well, but we are not dealing with reasonable people, when your dealing with the far left.

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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Retiredducker said:


> Don't agree that an inch always leads to a mile...reasonable people will prevail...anyway Merry Christmas to all of you..


i know what you mean. i really do, this is the small part we disagree with...reasonable people stopped winning the fights not too long ago. merry christmas to you as well.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

nothing has changed about the advice but, governments have even more powerful weaponry than they did back then.


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

Maybe disciplined is the key word here...that of course is open to many interpretations...


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Retiredducker said:


> Maybe disciplined is the key word here...that of course is open to many interpretations...


The biggest thing is gun owners need to stick together. The AR crowd is coming under fire from the anti-gun crowd. If we "shot gunners" say we dont care because its not a shotgun, dont expect sport shooters to help when they come after our semi auto shotguns. Automatic guns are banned (without special permit) so any further legislation is going to regulate what weapons are legal (your shotgun).

You want to make a law preventing mentally ill from getting a gun? Already have one....government needs to fix how the manage mentally ill people, not guns.

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## rentalrider (Aug 8, 2011)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> The biggest thing is gun owners need to stick together. The AR crowd is coming under fire from the anti-gun crowd. If we "shot gunners" say we dont care because its not a shotgun, dont expect sport shooters to help when they come after our semi auto shotguns. Automatic guns are banned (without special permit) so any further legislation is going to regulate what weapons are legal (your shotgun).
> 
> You want to make a law preventing mentally ill from getting a gun? Already have one....government needs to fix how the manage mentally ill people, not guns.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


This. x50 billion. Spot on Kid. And you are right- the sport gun guys are watching and expecting support. I'm one of them.


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

A couple of gerneral thoughts, it does matter how a criminal gets a gun when it comes to our cause. It is simply a perception issue. When a horrible crime is committed with a legally purchased weapon, the fringe of the population sways anti-gun. When a crime is committed with an illegally procured gun, that is not the case. I realize that a crime is a crime, but the bottom line is we are talking politics now and perception means a ton. Second, in the way modern politics works, I would gladly give an inch on something like the Gun Show loop hole, if the legislation can lock-up some of our rights like banning a ban on assault weapons.

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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

boostfan said:


> A couple of gerneral thoughts, it does matter how a criminal gets a gun when it comes to our cause. It is simply a perception issue. When a horrible crime is committed with a legally purchased weapon, the fringe of the population sways anti-gun. When a crime is committed with an illegally procured gun, that is not the case. I realize that a crime is a crime, but the bottom line is we are talking politics now and perception means a ton. Second, in the way modern politics works, I would gladly give an inch on something like the Gun Show loop hole, if the legislation can lock-up some of our rights like banning a ban on assault weapons.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Legislation??? How about legislating this sort of crap?

http://www.lohud.com/interactive/ar...gun-permits-your-neighborhood-?nclick_check=1

What an easy way to for a criminal to plan another crime.


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

WoW. said:


> Legislation??? How about legislating this sort of crap?
> 
> http://www.lohud.com/interactive/ar...gun-permits-your-neighborhood-?nclick_check=1
> 
> What an easy way to for a criminal to plan another crime.


Yikes!!:SHOCKED:
Shocking for both sides of the coin.


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

Would be interesting to guage each person's level of distrust of the goverment. Maybe it would be best put in a poll to determine one's biggest reason for wanting to own an AR type rifle and the extended magazines for same..

Could be but in 1-2-3 order:

personal protection

sport

fear of government


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## rentalrider (Aug 8, 2011)

I trust the government as far as I can throw it collectively. But not nec. in the way that you infer. I use/want my AR for hunting/sport 1st, use a shotgun or pistol for personal protection and don't plan on needing a weapon for government. So only 1 applies to me.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

Retiredducker said:


> Would be interesting to guage each person's level of distrust of the goverment. Maybe it would be best put in a poll to determine one's biggest reason for wanting to own an AR type rifle and the extended magazines for same..
> 
> Could be but in 1-2-3 order:
> 
> ...


 
You left one out.

BECAUSE WE CAN!!!!

But, Why is really nobody's business now is it?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Retiredducker said:


> Would be interesting to guage each person's level of distrust of the goverment. Maybe it would be best put in a poll to determine one's biggest reason for wanting to own an AR type rifle and the extended magazines for same..
> 
> Could be but in 1-2-3 order:
> 
> ...


i find it very clever how you chose "fear" in your choice. I don't fear our government. I want to protect myself from all things and that includes my government. our government is relatively young by empire standards. Thinking we are all comfy and we could never turn ugly at any time in the world today is pretty narrow sighted don't you think? not saying we should be conspiracy thinking but man... there's been a lot of government changes/protests/regime fails throughout the world in long standing governments lately. we are not immune.

example of where i would need such a "bad" weapon: if we were ever to have a natural disaster (katrina) and a hoard of people decide to rush my families business...i will need an AR to defend my property...u bet.


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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

rentalrider said:


> I trust the government as far as I can throw it collectively. But not nec. in the way that you infer. I use/want my AR for hunting/sport 1st, use a shotgun or pistol for personal protection and don't plan on needing a weapon for government. So only 1 applies to me.


Absolutly
If you need an AR for protection from our government you got some mental problems, truely. Check yourself in IMMEDIATLY for Paranoia, Anxiety, PTSD, Schizo, Depression or all the above, before you do somethin nuts and get yourself killed anyway.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

Still think they won't come after your "duck guns"???


http://youtu.be/Wi6JR7_w75k


Stock H&K SBE. 

Black. Fast. Scary.


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## Retiredducker (Oct 11, 2011)

Nothing but curiosity...not trying to score any style points and no underlying message...just curious which reasons for ownership are most prevalent among sportsmen like ourselves....I'm sure there are other reasons as well such as a pure collector..


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

300 million guns amongst 80 million people, no reason to fear the government yet

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## fowl weather (Oct 6, 2010)

I posted this a couple of days ago in the Concealed Weapons forum. It appears to have been a thread killer. Not exactly sure why. However, I thought I would share with the waterfowl crew.

Here goes:

This is my first post in this forum,...I have been lurking and learning. I am a teacher and coach in a large Div I school, high school (28 yrs.) I have a cpl and rarely use it for the intended purpose. Mostly as open carry while hunting firearm deer as a second gun that could get covered by my long hunting coat and fall under the concealed carry law.

I am amazed at everyone who thinks they are an "expert" on what happens in schools. I suppose, because everyone has participated in public education they think they are an expert.

Well, you must, as the old adage says "Walk a mile in our shoes".

I was raised in a time when: If you wanted to squirrel hunt with your buddy at his house, you could make arrangements to bring your 22 or shotgun on the bus, stow it in the principals office during school, retrieve it after school, stow it behind the bus drivers seat, ride to your buddies house get off, have a snack and literally have a blast hunting squirrels.

We knew the power of firearms. They KILL things!

This is lost on most of our youth,...it is a game (video),...If you die you get re-spawned and start all over again. You get a veritable arsenal to select from in which to virtually kill everyone and anyone. However, no one really ever dies,...you just re-spawn.

My students are very, very different now than even 15 years ago. Hamburger comes from McDonald's, Taco Bell, Burger King, Wendy's, and the grocery store. 90% of my kids (high school) literally do not associate the fact that something must DIE in order for them to live!

Oh yes, we practice lock-down drills by law. We squeeze them in at the end of the year (May) when it matters probably the least. My kids will often ask me,..."So, what will we really do if an armed intruder starts shooting in our school."

I have several trite and canned responses about how I will sacrifice my life to save theirs etc,...etc. However, there is very little I can do.

We have 37 entrances/exists to our school facility. It is enormous. Doors are always propped open during lunches by other students to allow access to each door because it is convenient. We have a liaison officer on campus about 4 hours out of the day. I can honestly say I have never seen him in my hallway since he started.

We are literally all on our own, unarmed and vulnerable to anything.

I consider myself a very persuasive person. However, I KNOW THAT I COULD NOT talk a mentally ill person off the cliff! I face them nearly ever day in class. Kids who are not getting the help they need to deal with whatever issues they have. Those of you who are not in public education have no idea.

Our problems are systemic: It starts at home. Kids are convenient because anyone can have one. Then, they become adolescents and all hormonal hell breaks loose. If your kids are not grounded with good morals and values they become a huge burden on public school system resources.

I am not complaining, I love my job and am passionate about my chosen discipline of instruction (Science). I wake up every day and still look forward to teaching our youth! Most of the kids I teach are great kids and will be great contributors to our society. I often wonder what I would do in a situation like Columbine, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook if I was allowed to be armed.

If we are talking about arming teachers, we must be very careful. In my opinion, they must be trained just like a police officer, vetted, and unknown to anyone except law enforcement and trusted administrators (some could not handle the secrecy). I strongly believe that these "special" teachers could have a tremendous impact on immediate response if required. They know the facility and understand children and teenagers. Personally, I would have a difficult time being that person (that carries concealed). However, if ever called upon, I would serve and protect our children when physically threatened.

Please do not take any of this out of context. I realize that I open myself up to all kinds of criticism by posting on a forum where anyone can be anonymous and write anything (kind of long-winded) like me. In a perfect World, none of us would have to worry about sending our kids off to school. It is still the safest place that a child can be statistically.

Everyone, please hug your children and tell them you love them very much this holiday season and ever after. We get one chance as parents, make it count!


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## Timber (Jan 1, 2009)

boostfan said:


> 300 million guns amongst 80 million people, no reason to fear the government yet
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Keep telling yourself that. And it could happen before you think. 

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## Divers Down (Mar 31, 2008)

* I realize that I open myself up to all kinds of criticism by posting on a forum where anyone can be anonymous and write anything (kind of long-winded) like me*

No critisim from me sir.
Teachers have a hard enough job and now on the front lines, literaly.
Thank you for your service


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Retiredducker said:


> Would be interesting to guage each person's level of distrust of the goverment. Maybe it would be best put in a poll to determine one's biggest reason for wanting to own an AR type rifle and the extended magazines for same..
> 
> Could be but in 1-2-3 order:
> 
> ...


IMO, don't need to justify owning an AR to anyone. That's a slippery slope.


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## mrbeachtc (Oct 1, 2010)

TSS Caddis said:


> IMO, don't need to justify owning an AR to anyone. That's a slippery slope.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


Well said

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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

Timber said:


> Keep telling yourself that. And it could happen before you think.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


My point is that as long as we stay armed, we don't need to worry,because we are already prepared and create one hell of a big deterant.

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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Great post fowl weather!

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## gooseman (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks Fowl for posting a very honest and realistic view on what I believe is the most well said logic yet.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

Are any of you familiar with the National Firearms Act of 1934?

This is the law that first regulated fully automatic weapons, short barreled rifles and shotguns, and weapons with explosive projectiles. This law came into being after the prohibition era. It was a time in our nation's history when gangsters were killing each other in epidemic proportions and the killings were spilling over into the rest of the population (non gangsters and law enforcement officers). 

We know that outright bans and prohibition does not work. Our history has a number of examples of that. Hell, the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 did not work. However, regulation and restriction of certain types of weapons does have a history of reducing violent crime with those weapons. The ownership and transfer of handguns and other weapons are restricted and regulated. These restrictions and regulations are because these firearms were the weapons most often used by violent criminals.

When a bunch of gang bangers (or mentally ill) are killing each other, most of the general public does not care. When they start killing women, children, and first responders, etc, something is going to happen. Nobody wants our loved ones to be killed when they go to school, or a movie, etc. 

Stating that "black rifles" and handguns with high capacity magazines do not cause crime is absolutely true. However, it is difficult to deny that these are preferred weapons in recent mass killings.

We have a history of regulating certain types of weapons in this country. The Supreme Court of the United States has not found that to be unconstitutional in light of the Second Amendment.


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## zollcat111 (Jun 30, 2010)

Fowl, from one teacher to another, I would not have changed one word in your post. Well put, and thank you for putting such thought into it.


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## fowl weather (Oct 6, 2010)

Thank you all. I really do appreciate reading the posts in the waterfowl forum (not just this particular thread). I can tell you are great group of folks who appreciate other perspectives and views with open and honest discourse.


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## rentalrider (Aug 8, 2011)

John Singer said:


> Stating that "black rifles" and handguns with high capacity magazines do not cause crime is absolutely true. However, it is difficult to deny that these are preferred weapons in recent mass killings.


Only if you believe everything you see on the news. FYI there is helicopter surveilance which clearly shows the AR in the school shooting was indeed in the trunk of the car as it was first reported. *SOMEHOW, *no idea how this could possibly happen though, the facts were changed to better support a political agenda. :smile-mad It was (again, as first reported) pistols used in the attacks. But ask anyone what those kids were killed with and they'll say an assault weapon. Seems the powers that be need to tell the surveilance choppers, coroner (yup, he slipped up too) and responding officers which story is gonna make it to the 11 o'clock news before they let them go.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

rentalrider said:


> Only if you believe everything you see on the news. FYI there is helicopter surveilance which clearly shows the AR in the school shooting was indeed in the trunk of the car as it was first reported. *SOMEHOW, *no idea how this could possibly happen though, the facts were changed to better support a political agenda. :smile-mad It was (again, as first reported) pistols used in the attacks. But ask anyone what those kids were killed with and they'll say an assault weapon. Seems the powers that be need to tell the surveilance choppers, coroner (yup, he slipped up too) and responding officers which story is gonna make it to the 11 o'clock news before they let them go.


Not to rain on your parade, but that gun was not an AR they pulled from the trunk. If you watch the video especially at the 1:20 mark you see what looks like a shotgun shell eject then the cop work the action a few times. It looks like a semi auto shotgun. Definitely not at AR though.


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## rentalrider (Aug 8, 2011)

Don't know. Don't care to investigate any more either. Just makes me more angry. What I will say though is I've seen/heard enough conflicting info/reports to make ME BELIEVE (not worried about/don't care what you or anyone else believes) there have been facts changed. And that pisses me off.


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## boostfan (Feb 7, 2011)

John Singer said:


> Stating that "black rifles" and handguns with high capacity magazines do not cause crime is absolutely true. However, it is difficult to deny that these are preferred weapons in recent mass killings.
> 
> We have a history of regulating certain types of weapons in this country. The Supreme Court of the United States has not found that to be unconstitutional in light of the Second Amendment.


Recent is a realative term, do you want to go back to the days of people using explosives and killing far more people. Even if they manage to take those types of guns out of the hands of these lunatics that is what they will resort to.

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## Boatown (Nov 27, 2004)

If the gov does ban the assault type guns the black market will be flooded with over priced weapons . IF you think your safe because you now owe a AR 15 and lots of ammo your crazy... You should pack up a move to the Middle east where you need it to survive . There are to many Yahoos out there that think there bad ass if they own a assault type gun


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## rentalrider (Aug 8, 2011)

I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. I don't think myself or any of the others are considering ourselves bad-ass because we own a particular gun. Is that your point?


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

rentalrider said:


> I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. I don't think myself or any of the others are considering ourselves bad-ass because we own a particular gun. Is that your point?


Point? Obviously, there wasn't one


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Boatown said:


> If the gov does ban the assault type guns the black market will be flooded with over priced weapons . IF you think your safe because you now owe a AR 15 and lots of ammo your crazy... You should pack up a move to the Middle east where you need it to survive . There are to many Yahoos out there that think there bad ass if they own a assault type gun


Hrm, thanks for the headsup, i'm feeling more bad-ass as i type this

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## mrbeachtc (Oct 1, 2010)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> Hrm, thanks for the headsup, i'm feeling more bad-ass as i type this
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


According o Obama those countries are small and no threat. 

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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

Why can't "we the people" provide the same protection for our children that Obummer does?


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