# Little Manistee



## Apache Trout (Feb 5, 2002)

I don't know his position on the power plant - you should contact his office.


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## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

I did contact Palsrok's office regarding the Tondu Coal plant issue.

I do not know the guy so I will assume he is ok and loves to fish, unless I'm proven wrong.

But his response to me was a typical form letter that stated he was concerned about the welfare of the river and also about the need for electricity.

Basically as I see it, it was it was a "thank you but I'm doing nothing about it " letter.

As far as protecting the LM as our brood streem, it does need it. I have lived on and fished this river for 15 years and have seen a big increase in fishing traffic. 

I have no problem with it as I was one who got on board 15 years ago. Let the fishermen go out and find the spots on their own as so many of us have done.

What I do not understend is the need to advertise it on the world wide web? Whats the point? The traffic on rivers will grow on their own. 

Over 15 years I have seen how the increased traffic has "HURT" this brood stream. Back then there were 2 hot spots that I knew of, where campers were there from midnite opening day until the last ragged Steelhead headed back to the big lake a few weeks later. They fished in teams so the group would not lose their spot. This went on around the clock. Thank God some fish still managed to spawn. Not only were they fished 24/7 but you can not believe the amount of guys who wandered around in the water looking for the fish after they were finally spooked into the holes. I mean foot traffic thru the redds. Many times I witnessed guys standing in a new redd so they could maintain a good footing while they jerked a Hot & Tot in the next redd down.

The next day guys were standing in that redd as they were plugging the hole beyond. There goes the fertilized eggs. 
As I said back then there were a couple of good gravel spots that this happened to. 
River restoration in the following years has opened more gravel to spawning and guess what. The same thing is happening in more places than in the past. I have witnessed increased traffic and the unfortunate damage that is being done to the following year's potential fish. For the most part fishermen do not realize the damage they are doing. Certainly it is not intentional, I do not believe. 

I do know that there are some who do not care about what they are doing to a fresh redd as long as they get a shot at plugging a fish. I have watched many in the past 2 weeks and have had discussions with them. I even have offered suggestions on how they stand a better chance of getting a hook up if they get out of the redd and try another approach. "I'll do it my way" is what they are saying. 

Talk to the experts and they will tell you the same.... THIS IS HURTING THE BROOD STREAM.


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## steelhead2catch (Apr 4, 2003)

I'm with Dryfly on this one


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## Kevin (Oct 4, 2000)

This is a discussion that at times, has generated more heat than light.

It is a good discussion and one that should be had.

I urge everyone to remember that you can debate someone's argument without taking a shot at their motivation.
Thanks for your cooperation.


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## Sam22 (Jan 22, 2003)

Gosh guys, this issue just won't die. I am on the side of the moderators, I think the policy is good foresight if not just good policy. Let's let it rest. Anything we as responcible sportsman to protect our rivers is fine by me.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Agreed, time to put this topic to bed.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

This type of topic will continue to resurface regardless of the Watershed. In this case it was based on the move of the staff to discontinue posting on a river, instead of the opposite.

The same will happen if a new member fishes the North Branch, Rogue, SB of the PM or any other smaller river and frequently posts on it. Taking Dave's and Ray's posts into consideration, which I consider very valid on both ends, it boils down to educating the public to the fragility of our rivers. Walking on redds, raking beds, the lack of public land, the limited amount of parking all should weigh in on ones decision when they post. Like Ray mentioned, there's plenty of Federal Land on the LM, but yet it's small water and continual posting on it won't help anyone, including landowners and the Mom and Pop that might consider fishing it after stories of success.

Actually the same goes for any river. Sure threads give us a barometer on the progression of a run, population of the trout and other factors that may or may not attract crowds. I have chased posts myself and planned trip accordingly, only to find crowded conditions near access points. Those days are gone (thankfully). I would rather find the secondary waters and avoid the animosity involved with fishing exploited stretches even if it makes a good read for those that continue to live through other's posts that name the river or a stretch on a site the size of this one.

Oh well, it's time for trout and time to put these topics to rest. Sure can't wait for Salmon season (not)


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## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

We should all open our knowledge to help others when it comes to teaching
techniques, equipment, how to read the water, conditions etc. 

We should also teach and practice river ediquite and to tread lightly on this fragil resource.

After all of this teaching, one should graduate and then be able to go out on their own to explore their opportunities.


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## steelhead2catch (Apr 4, 2003)

Wow Mr. Shoeman I am gonna take your advice early and not even start chasing these posts. It's amazing how many of these posts get edited by that "Whit" guy...without even an explaination. What happend to freedom of speech? I see one of Dryfly's posts got edited, Mine, and I think there were a few others...

This is my second post that got edited and I did get an explaination on the 1st one but not this one, I can guess what was wrong but I still don't think it was bad enough to be edited...BUT I have only been back on this site for like a month since I moved from Wolverine to Hazel Park for my new job, and I am not sure I am gonna stick around this site if no-one can say what they feel without the moderators going "Edit Happy"

DryFly you are the man! Education is the key, I do that whenever I can. Take a youngster fishing...talk with anglers walking on Redds...We need to fish together sometime my friend!


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## Apache Trout (Feb 5, 2002)

Whit edited my post and, although I was not initially pleased, he did it so the thread would not become an out and out attack on others. He was probably right. With the problems we have had on this board; unfortunately we sometimes need policing. He is not big brother, merely trying to maintain the health and vitality of this board. Not an easy job in my book.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Apache Trout said:


> He is not big brother, merely trying to maintain the health and vitality of this board. Not an easy job in my book.


You can say that again. I've been there.  Now here's the perfect usage for the "Intellectual Mallet" LOL


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## tgafish (Jan 19, 2001)

Be careful of the almighty Whit


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

steelhead2catch said:


> Wow It's amazing how many of these posts get edited by that "Whit" guy...without even an explaination. What happend to freedom of speech? I see one of Dryfly's posts got edited, Mine, and I think there were a few others


Steelhead,
I normally keep communications with members about posts between the member and myself. However, since you have chosen to bring it up in the open forum, I'll respond in here.

You did get an explanation of why your post(s) were edited. Your accusation of otherwise is simply not true and you know that. I've PMed every person in here who has had a post edited with the reason why. Some of the reasons were very simple, and hardly a negative reaction on my part to the post. You seem to assume that because a post has been edited, the perpetrator of the editing is an over-enthusiastic censor. It may surprise you that you might be quite wrong.

For the most part, correspondence between myself and those whose posts have been edited have been quite cordial, even when we disagree.

I, as do all the moderators, try to do our job to the best of our ability, for the good of the site. If you have a beef with me, I'd ask that you take it up with me via a PM, email, or in person. That's not asking much, I don't think.


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## ZobZob (Oct 27, 2002)

Although I've never fished the Little M I can see everyone's point that is not for exploitation. I admit I fish a lot of rivers/piers and do not post on them. I've seen the results when I and others have in the past. I do post on some of the obvious places to give back as I do learn information from others on this site. I also understand the counterpoint to this as many have kids and family obligations where they do not have this freedom to fish whenever they want as I have. 

That being said, I could care less if someone tells me they caught 15 steelhead on the Little Manistee or the St. Joe or wherever. I think the method, techniques, etc is what people should pay attention to. That's where you can benefit from the most. Edit away, it does not bother me. You can apply these techniques to your favorite spots.  

Zob


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Many of us understand what will happen if we post that we had a banner day on any river which is the reason why many of us choose to use desecration when posting about where we fish. On the other hand, one of the biggest reasons people think this is such a great site is because the members are so helpful.

When guys like Dave write about the guys who stand in one redd to fish the next and wipe out the eggs in that redd or otherwise do things that exploit the river his words should be taken with some weight. Those things do require education and this site can have a big impact in that area. There will always be slobs and people who want instant gratification just like there will be a self righteous segment who will always pontificate and explain the correct moral path for us to travel.

I believe the point of contention with many members here is that someone has to decide for them what they can post on and what they cant. Not surprisingly they have strong feelings about this issue and I am sure there many who just dont like the idea of being subjugated, muzzled, censored or treated like a little child.

I believe it was Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. who said; The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously. 

For what its worth, I think someone should write a policy that explains the problems associated with posting about any good fishing spot and how it might affect other members on this site who might fish there and direct people to that policy and let them decide for themselves. Then again you may want to refer to the quote above!


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## JWF (Jun 25, 2001)

It seems like reports are way down this spring anyway. I am surprised about the number of reports in the NW forums this spring, and I can't remember anyone posting about the LM before the new policy went into effect.


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## steelhead2catch (Apr 4, 2003)

I must apologize to Whit...I just saw a private message from him re-guarding the editing of my post. Somehow I missed it. Sorry Whit and I understand why you did now...I am just gonna stay out of these kinda discussions. You'll hear from me again when work lets me go fishing!


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## TUCKER (Nov 1, 2002)

I've sat back quietly until now. I think it is ridiculous to ban people from naming a river in there report. The little Man is smaller than say the P.M. or the White but sure gets a darn good run of fish every year. Just because they aren't there in great numbers when your there doesn't mean the run is getting worse. Our steelhead runs are more drawn out from year to year than a salmon run will ever be. Other rivers are just as crowded or worse, have as many or more fish kept and killed and show signs of bank erosion and trash just as bad as the Little Man. God forbid that someone reads a post about that river and wants to try to learn it and make it one of his/her favorite rivers to fish. I don't post on this site much because of the "It's my way or the Highway" attitude from a few people. The only fair way is to censor all river names to make it fair or censor none and share the wealth.


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## ShimanoReels (Apr 18, 2004)

i have fished the Little Man for a few years now. Yes there are tons of people that fish when the salmon are in..we all know that, what about the times in the summer when there are absoultly no people up there...fishing pressure is minimal! During the steelhead run, people fish the LM correct? true, but just because people fish it, doesnt mean that the number of eggs they take will be lowered in any way. I fished up from the wier not to long ago, and there was fish in fair numbers up there. I dont think that the pressure has anything to do with anything that is worth "talking about". If there are 100 people at the wier, how many people walk out with fish? not very many...People just go to the banks and fish and have a great time and I personally dont think they care. People know that the fish are there and they are going to fish for them. I have been there during prime time and it's busy as heck at the wier, and that is why I dont go there anymore. I think it's great to see the people intrested in catching fish, and I htink that the last things on the people's minds are, well i shouldnt be keeping this fish, because they stock the whole state with the eggs. I dont want to argue, that isnt my point!! That was just my 2 cents in the basket..But i think this is a hott topic and i think it should carry on as long as no one bashes eatch other!! Ray, you post some great points.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I find that most of the people complaining are new to fishing NW rivers in the last 15 years themselves. Or essentially, they are part of the very problem they are complaining about. Hypocrite is the word, I believe. But only a hypocrite if a complainer about being on the band wagon. Baldwin will soon have a new big motel, A big Super 8 I think, going up at the corner of US-10 and M-37 and a new Subway sub place. Baldwin just isn't "up north" anymore, as much as some downstaters would like to stop it. Lake county was second in the percentage increase in population in the 1990-2000 census. Second because Newaygo was #1. And our billboard conpany said that road strip traffic, year round, had increased nearly 500% on 19 mile rd during the same time. Hey, my dad used to hunt on 8 mile road in Detroit. The pheasants were everywhere down there. Does he blame the phone or TV for changing that? In another 40 years, all these rivers will probably be more like 6th street and Baldwin may have 80,000 residents, year round. Remember when Brighton or Clarkston was a small hick town? That wasn't too long ago. Now they're almost overgrown. Like the old joke saying "if the restuarant gets any busier, nobody is going to come here anymore".


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## MayFly1 (Dec 15, 2003)

Is that what we really want something like 6th street, 8mile, Brighton or Clarkston in Baldwin, everyone can make a difference in regards to the problems we face!

In my opinion it is all about a better FISHING EXPERIENCE for all!! 

Hopefully we can save it for the future generations!!!


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## Neapolis (Apr 22, 2000)

Bob @ BBT - True :banghead3


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

I guess I dont understand closing a thread because someone thinks it has run its course. If that were true, there would be no need to close it in the first place. Just because someone brings up a controversial topic doesnt mean it should be closed. 

I realize when a topic gets contentious some people feel uneasy or maybe queasy is a better term. People are not always going to get along even when they try. Sometimes antagonism fosters thought just like it did in this thread.

Any way, thanks for keeping your fingers off the trigger and not closing this thread. I appreciate all the thoughtful comments people made even if the policy did not get reversed.


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## fishforreel (Apr 26, 2004)

I have been reading posts for a long time now and decided to add my thoughts for what it is worth. 

Things have changed drastically over the past years. 

The southern over crowding is moving north, the lakes and rivers are getting more and more crowded, ( God cried when some fool invented jet skies ), there are more vehicles on the smaller northern roads, 
the pristine north country is starting to take on the littered look of the big cities etc. 

All of this change has come about because people are venturing out more along with advertising and word of mouth. 

Although many would like to keep it the way it was, the onslaught is enevitable.

Yes you used to be able to hunt phesants in Detriot of fish quietly on the Grand in Grand Rapids. Soon our grand children will most likely be saying this about where we hunt and fish now. 

This growth will increase on a faster than ever rate due to the newly invented internet, where one message sent on line can be viewed by millions rather than in the past when you told a buddy at the bar. 

I fish and hunt. I do not have problems telling friends of my experiences or even if a new guy wants to know a few things, I'm more than willing to share. On the other hand why is it necessary to tell the whole world?

I have a favorite mushroom spot that I will go to today and enjoy the solitude. Why would I want to put this on the internet to tell the world? It took me years of searching to find it.

Change will come and we can not stop it but I ask you, "what is the reasoning behind rushing it?"

I see many small town "tourist associations" pushing to get more people to their part of the world. This is good for those who have business establishments and will stand to make more money on a personal basis. But what about the people who will not profit by it?

Posting pictures and info about fishing or hunting in secluded areas can bring no personal gain other than bragging or letting everyone know how good they are.

Please do not take me wrong as I do not intend to offend anyone. My point is for all of us to continue to do what we do, do it will, by all means brag to your duddies (this is what it is all about), but do not publish it to the world and accelerate the change that is coming. 

I really do not know of anyone who wants it to be more crowded than it is. 

Lastly,
as far as not posting about smaller rivers on this site, I recall a poll of some sort and the decision to not do it was supported by a majoriety of the members. Doesn't democracy suck?:banghead3


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Fish,
Welcome to Michigan-Sportsman.com

What you say is true, unfortunately, up to a point. I post a few reports during the year, usually with a pic or two. However, I do so, not for "bragging" rights, but rather to share with the membership a bit of my fishing/hunting experiences. I have a "report" in the NW Rivers Forum now about my Opening Day fishing. The river is not named and I'll keep it that way.

Grand Rapids is my hometown and places where we pheasant hunted in the '60's are now houses. The trout streams north of town used to be excellent, but are now overcome with subdivisions. You should have seen some of the trout we took out of those creeks forty years ago.

Thanks for your comments. The one about jet skies is especially significant and true. Can ya use those things for target practice with a deer rifle?....LOL!!......kidding of course.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Good points indeed

I really like Bob's comments on growth. There's only a handful of guys that will benefit from such growth and he's one of them. At this point I can see why he's an advocate of posting names and places. (not to mention it helps with reducing the fee on his 800#) I remember when Orchard and Cass Lake were surrounded by cottages instead of multi-million dollar estates. This is mostly do to longer commutes and the close proximity to our population centers. I highly doubt that Baldwin falls into that category. This being said, as long as members realize the impact of posting on any water and think they need to include the name or stretch to make it good reading, think again...


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

"Most men die before they realize it's not the fish that they were after".

I'll second what John just posted. I had to have a lot of water flow past my feet before I realized the truth of that statement.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

We could always go for a quota system on rivers. You stop at USFS in the morning and they issue daily permits for who can fish. Maybe put 100 people and 6 boats in each section? Some rivers out west are restricted.


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## chromium (Oct 10, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> "Most men die before they realize it's not the fish that they were after".


Very well put Bob.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

I'll second that along with this:

"My fishing license didn't come with a score card "

Amen...


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

OH NO!!!!

I just made a HUGE mistake and edited Bob's post. Get it back up there Bob, I was merely going to add my "second" to John's comments in a post of my own.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> We could always go for a quota system on rivers. You stop at USFS in the morning and they issue daily permits for who can fish. Maybe put 100 people and 6 boats in each section? Some rivers out west are restricted.


I can see that happening.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Either that or go with the system on the Pine and limit the number of trips guides can do?


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## [email protected] (Jan 21, 2001)

TSS Caddis said:


> Either that or go with the system on the Pine and limit the number of trips guides can do?


Already done! The PM is under the exact same regs as the Pine and has the same permit system for guides and float permits...

This sure is a fun thread to read, but WAY too much mis-information to go back on and try to correct however.  

_Steve_


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Steve, I was under the impression that if you have a pine permit that you have a limited number of days that you can be on the river. I didn't think it was a 7 days a week 365 days a year permit, but instead had a total number of days associated to it.


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## phishermeister (Apr 28, 2004)

> God forbid that someone reads a post about that river and wants to try to learn it and make it one of his/her favorite rivers to fish.


I was thinking more along the lines of God help someone that tries to make the LM his/her favorite river. Same with the white. I feel sorry for anyone who falls in love with either one of them. It can only lead to a broken heart. I promise!


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Welcome aboard the Michigan-Sportsman paty boat Phish. Browse through the forums and while doing so, take a look at the "Stickies" at the top of many forums. They will explain some site policies to you.

Visit us often and post frequently.

There are some great guys and gals on this site ranging in experience from neophyte to way beyond expert.

Take a look at the Introduction Forum and post in there telling us a bit about yourself.


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## phishermeister (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanks whit,

I'm well aware of the experts. I've been here before. Allways liked you though. You're allright in my book!


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## fishforreel (Apr 26, 2004)

It's ok to fall in love with a river, but you will not be heart broken if you treat it like true love to a woman.

Treat her with respect.
What you do with her should be kept private, not put on the internet.:shhh: 
Do not exploit her.

Only exception is you do not have to take her out to dinner:evil:


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

phishermeister said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of God help someone that tries to make the LM his/her favorite river. Same with the white. I feel sorry for anyone who falls in love with either one of them. It can only lead to a broken heart. I promise!


I have been in love with both of them for 34 years. No less today then yesterday. With population growth comes more fishing pressure. My memories of encounters with idiots have been lost in time but my friendships and encounters with decent people have been lasting memories. 



I leave in one hour for my opener. :woohoo1: My year is filled with anticipation of trout camp becoming a fevered pitch the last 24 hours. 99% of memories during that year is of the brown rising out of the hole to grab the lure. Ask me when I return how many of my favorite holes I had to pass because someone was fishing it or what the idiot mumbled to me as I drifted by, and I won't be able to tell you. Ask me about how the fishing was, how the big one managed to get himself into the deadfall downstream and I will be able to tell you in great detail with big smile on face. Crowd, Where? Never saw a person.


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