# Lowest Bird Numbers Ever



## Ray Adams

BIGSP said:


> I think there may be some truth to this post and the previous post. Birds aren't where they should be or where we like to hunt them. I think the weather pattern has hosed us a bit too. Let's see what the last 3 weeks of the season bring to us. It's still not going to be great but, maybe, just maybe it will be better than what we originally thought. My guess is once it cools down we're going to get snowed out. lol


I sure wish this were the case, but I'm telling you, I've been walking 8 - 10 mile days and hitting typical and atypical cover alike. There's only so many places grouse can survive. We know they aren't swimming in ponds and I've seriously even checked fallow fields adjacent to grouse cover in case they were feeding on waste corn or grasshoppers. No dice. 

As I told a buddy recently, there isn't some upland speakeasy where these birds are holed-up sipping Manhattens. They simply aren't there.


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## fowl

I agree. Lowest numbers I've ever seen in 17+ years of chasing them. Some of my best covers have produced 0-1 bird in a hunt. My concern now is that if nesting conditions are ideal it could take a couple seasons for numbers to recover to a decent level.


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## Lamarsh

Surprisingly with the nasty hot weather we had a decent weekend--put up 5 grouse yesterday and 8 grouse this morning 1 woodcock this afternoon. Really thought we'd get into more woodcock this weekend... We changed our usual way of hunting for this time of the year. The typical coverts that are good in late October were dry and birdless. Most of our finds were in in cedar and stands of alders with wet ground, like where you'd look in the early season, but a few in broomstick popples with wintergreen and hazelbrush and the occasional thornapple patch. Hot for the dogs, lots of short hunts, cutting many short for the dogs, not worth the risk. 

We'll be hitting the woods the next few weekends, and I hope the weather gets better. 

Curious if anybody has any theories on the woodcock flights....


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## RobbyBoy32

We've been doing well on the woodcock, and with the exception of one day last weekend, there has always been at least one grouse flushed per day. Many times that number is higher. Hitting the shots and getting close enough to even shoot is a different story. My advice is to always hunt near water. Some areas have been quite dry and no green stuff near the ground. I'm liking the areas near swamps and creeks with a mix of aspen, pine, fruit bearing bushes, and green floor cover. We flush a few near the roads and two tracks during the early morning and late almost dusk hours.


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## Sasquatch Lives

I have not been seeing as many either.


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## Mr. Botek

My season so far has been similar to those being reported. Lower than expected grouse numbers while hunting near Iron Mountain (had anticipated above average numbers based on pre-season Wisconsin reports). Outside of a few covers in central Michigan that have produced well this year, grouse and woodcock, it's been a good year for me looking for new covers that would likely hold birds in a typical year. I haven't had trouble finding woodcock, and I'm thankful for that for the dogs enjoyment.

I'm not sure if it's more than coincidental but the dogs pointed very few grouse on nests this spring woodcock banding season where we'd found consistent nests/grouse in previous springs.


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## birdhntr

For me the birds are not in my usual spots and none in the clear cuts I hunt.I just returned from a three day hunt and average 15 a day flushed.I put the miles on and hunted areas I never hunt that was wet and old growth with plenty of shade and nut trees.Had at least a dozen points were the bird left but the dogs held well.I'm sure they were grouse there because most of the birds I did find I had to have the dogs relocate them as they were really moving in the wind.They hate not being able to hear.As of right now this year is about average for me just as it was last year


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## BIGSP

Ray Adams said:


> I sure wish this were the case, but I'm telling you, I've been walking 8 - 10 mile days and hitting typical and atypical cover alike. There's only so many places grouse can survive. We know they aren't swimming in ponds and I've seriously even checked fallow fields adjacent to grouse cover in case they were feeding on waste corn or grasshoppers. No dice.
> 
> As I told a buddy recently, there isn't some upland speakeasy where these birds are holed-up sipping Manhattens. They simply aren't there.


I'm afraid you're right. I've tried just about every cover type out there other than cedar swamps.


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## setterpoint

i think it was the rain we had in spring. because a lot of the birds we got were older birds not to many young birds and not finding them in the same stuff we did last year but still have had fair hunting hunting season but down from last year at this time


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## Timber

Ray Adams said:


> I sure wish this were the case, but I'm telling you, I've been walking 8 - 10 mile days and hitting typical and atypical cover alike. There's only so many places grouse can survive. We know they aren't swimming in ponds and I've seriously even checked fallow fields adjacent to grouse cover in case they were feeding on waste corn or grasshoppers. No dice.
> 
> As I told a buddy recently, there isn't some upland speakeasy where these birds are holed-up sipping Manhattens. They simply aren't there.


I found this to be true in most of my previous go to spots, and decided to hit some areas with a little higher elevation, edges with chest nuts been working. I did go back to one of my old spots I always flush birds, and did well today compared to early season, I feel like today things could be changing. Good luck. But yes it was tough for a while, and I was worried, but it's game on know!


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## ab5228

Record spring/summer rainfalls in parts of the Yoop, I don’t know how that wouldn’t hurt nesting success. This is my first year hunting with a dog and I’ve been logging flushes/hour and I’m close to 30 hours now in 6 different counties. What kind of flush rate/hour would make for “lowest numbers ever?” I’ve been feeling good about all the grouse we’ve been finding, I mean, I’ve missed a lot birds this season.


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## BIGSP

ab5228 said:


> Record spring/summer rainfalls in parts of the Yoop, I don’t know how that wouldn’t hurt nesting success. This is my first year hunting with a dog and I’ve been logging flushes/hour and I’m close to 30 hours now in 6 different counties. What kind of flush rate/hour would make for “lowest numbers ever?” I’ve been feeling good about all the grouse we’ve been finding, I mean, I’ve missed a lot birds this season.


I think good years years, with good dogs and good spots you should be flushing close to 5-6 per hour over the average of the season. Last year was probably close to 4.5-5 per hour and this year it keeps getting closer to 3 and if it keeps up will dip below that.


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## JBooth

I'm not sure what to think. I had good numbers of flushes early on as the families were still together so I know they are around. I think you have to be in the exact right area for that time and day to find them now though. There was almost no fruit in some of my spots this year. Acorns are pretty limited. They haven't been hitting the witch hazel nuts yet. So what are they eating??? my last two killed were full of mushrooms. That's not very helpful. I really haven't hunted much up north yet so we'll see what november holds and whether or not the birds are actually around or not.


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## Ray Adams

Ray Adams said:


> It goes without saying: bird hunting encompasses far more than flush rates or bag limits.
> Nonetheless, as bird hunters, we're obviously looking for bird contacts - for us and the dogs.
> 
> I've been hunting grouse and woodcock (and pheasant, to a lesser degree) since 1987. I'm in my early 40s and currently have the best dog I've ever owned. I'm in as good, if not better shape, than I was in my 20s. I mostly hunt the Lower Peninsula, but have hunted the UP, WI and South Dakota. I hunt about 30 days per season and train during the off-season.
> 
> All this aside, I've never struggled as hard to find birds (grouse and woodcock) as I have this year. I've hunted through this year's oppressive heat and drought, checking creek bottoms, along lakes, in aspen cuts, among the oaks, beside cedar swamps, edge cover, etc. etc...
> 
> The situation really has me scratching my head. Woodcock have been tough, but grouse are mainly nonexistent. Remembering past peak years in the cycle in the late 1980s, 1990s and 2009, it seems like we should be nearing another apex, yet, in my experience, numbers are at all-time lows.
> 
> From reading other posts, I know others have been experiencing similar situations, but I'd love to hear theories as to why. I've considered possibilities like a poor nesting period, drought, avian influenza, snowless winters, poor mast production, etc, but can't come to terms with what I've been seeing (or not seeing.)
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Ray


Based upon others' responses, a little research and some friends "in the know," I'm hedging my bets on a very poor nesting season that went largely unnoticed. Maybe that's wrong, but it's the way I'm leaning at this point.


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## Lucky Dog

I just ran my numbers and this year I am flushing a little more than half a bird per hour more than I was flushing last year at this point in the season.
I don't keep these numbers, but in the last two weeks my young of the year birds killed has increased a lot. Just guessing, but I'd say that YOY birds went from about 20% - 25% to about 50% - 60% in the last couple weeks., I'll add that I only judge that by tail length, which may not be the best way.


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## JBooth

Lucky Dog said:


> I just ran my numbers and this year I am flushing a little more than half a bird per hour more than I was flushing last year at this point in the season.
> I don't keep these numbers, but in the last two weeks my young of the year birds killed has increased a lot. Just guessing, but I'd say that YOY birds went from about 20% - 25% to about 50% - 60%, I'll add that I only judge that by tail length, which may not be the best way.


I always attribute that to the older birds understanding they are being hunted and running more. It happens the same with pheasant and quail out west. The young birds just aren't as quick on the uptake.


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## augustus0603

My concern, along with my bird hunting friends, is the complete lack of young birds. Birds that we're seeing, are all adult birds. I got into a few coveys right before the opener and some of the birds were so small I have a hard time believing they made it to the season. Never before have I found dead, young grouse and found two before the season with numerous others reporting the same. 

A friend mentioned that 60% of birds killed are generally first year birds. If the hatch was as bad as everyone thinks/thought, most of the birds being killed are adult/2nd year. 

Just came back from the Central UP and some of our best spots were void of any birds. Not even wild flushes.


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## NATTY BUMPO

augustus0603 said:


> My concern, along with my bird hunting friends, is the complete lack of young birds. Birds that we're seeing, are all adult birds. I got into a few coveys right before the opener and some of the birds were so small I have a hard time believing they made it to the season. Never before have I found dead, young grouse and found two before the season with numerous others reporting the same.
> 
> A friend mentioned that 60% of birds killed are generally first year birds. If the hatch was as bad as everyone thinks/thought, most of the birds being killed are adult/2nd year.
> 
> Just came back from the Central UP and some of our best spots were void of any birds. Not even wild flushes.


THANKS for keeping it real, A0603.

We are just back from the Central UP too and had _exactly_ the same findings. My Scout brought back a young, freshly dead grouse whose crop was full of the usual variety of greens, various seeds and berries. This bird had not been shot or did not have any other signs of trauma when I dressed it out. I doubt it had been dead for more than a day ie. very little signs of PM changes.

What killed it????

NB


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## anon09082020

How does a dismal nesting season impact the following years ? Is this something that can be normalized with a above average nesting period/hatch next year or our we in trouble for a while?


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## Mr. Botek

http://www.grandforksherald.com/out...mn-biologist-cant-explain-poor-grouse-hunting
Looks like it's not just something we're seeing in Michigan.


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## Lucky Dog

Everyone wants to talk about lack of birds and make guesses as to the cause, but no one seems to want to talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

Lack of Habitat!


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## Ronnem

The grouse population is not going to come back in the lower peninsula of Michigan or any other state for that matter. The grouse populations have been pushed into "pockets" and then hunted till carry over birds are non-existent(no replacement rate). Currently the carry over birds lack the genetic diversity to produce viable eggs. They are too closely related. Nothing is being done by anyone except Pennsylvania, and all they did was look for something to blame it on, like PGC has always done and they found it. Although it 
isn't the real culprit it is something to blame and yes, many will fall for it. 

Biologist have been running a playbook in regards to ruffed grouse for about 60 years now. Just think if the Biologists' data that they used to compile that playbook was wrong. We have been doing everything they want, we are even at the point where biologist know what grouse need even more than the grouse and yet no grouse. It is comical that biologist can change the definition of the word "Habitat" just to suit their needs and we bought it
hook line and sinker. *YOU CAN'T HAVE "HABITAT" WITHOUT "INHABITANTS",* and frankly biologist don't have a clue as to what true ruffed grouse habitat(natural environment) really is. they are literally just appeasing the the lumber industry. That is it, it is all about an industry and nothing to do with ruffed grouse. it's funny that if you look at the definition of the word habitat, as meaning: the natural environment where something is and compare it 
to today this is what you get. We look at aspen cuttings and scream "grouse habitat grouse habitat" but in reality an aspen cutting isn't a natural environment for the aspen tree nor the ruffed grouse but I get it someone gets to make a lot of money off of calling aspen cuttings grouse habitat.

So for all you "grouse populations naturally cycle" believers and "old growth bad", "young woods good" believers and all you "aspen are the greatest" believers and all you rainy nesting season(by the way, I'm told historically spring is the wettest time of year) who believe you can have habitat without inhabitants, well here it is and get ready, because if you think the grouse populations are just going to spring back from nothing to something, well your in for a lifelong wait and without change it will not happen. 

Ron


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## BIGSP

Show me the data? You claim to be so much smarter than all the biologists out there. Show us the data that proves your crazy theory. Most people I know had a decent year last year. During the years of the peak cycle I personally knew of 3 different individuals that killed 100 grouse in a season for a few years in a row. Wild animals always have population swings, this is a down year for sure. I do agree we need to do more with habitat and not just aspen. What have you done lately with RGS? Lots of questions and not really many answers. I know I don't have any good answers other than we had rain almost everyday from June 10 (peak hatch date) until July 1st. The broods we did find were quite small 2-3 birds, they should be 5-6. Let's see what next year brings and the following before we jump to any wild conclusions. BTW, the Pennsylvania WNV theory and study is so full of holes it doesn't hold water with any real scientist.


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## JBooth

Grouse aren't being found dead, with full crops, because of a lack of habitat. My first guess would be a disease. With the warm weather and resurgence of mosquitoes late in the year I'd guess they are transmitting something. Next time you find a dead one, drop it off with a wildlife biologist.


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## ncgreg

BIGSP said:


> Show me the data? You claim to be so much smarter than all the biologists out there. Show us the data that proves your crazy theory. I do agree we need to do more with habitat and not just aspen.


Ohoh, here we go, getting a beer. Ditto on the pople stands.


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## Zeboy

I am certainly no expert, but I started hunting grouse with my father when I was 12. I have been chasing these birds for over 40 years. I have hunted 9 times this year, close to 50 hours. Here are some random rambling observations.


1. Finding less Grouse and WC than the previous couple years. It's certainly not the worse year I have seen though. Disappointing because we should be on a rise in the cycle.

2. I do think that the May rains are this year’s biggest issue. This is a little surprising. I was always thought that the most critical time was the first couple weeks of June. We actually had pretty good weather during that stretch.

3. I did get into some obvious flight wc this weekend in the NW lower. Not huge numbers, but obvious flight birds.

4. Spent 5 days in East Central UP. Grouse flushes were 40% of what we moved in this area last year. Shocked by how few birds we moved.

5. The DNR has been tracking flush rates via cooperators for as long as I can remember. I don't recall ever seeing an area of the state (zone 1, 2 or 3) exceeding 3 birds per hour over the course of a season. If you average 3 birds per hour for the season, you are clearly above average. If you can "consistently" move 5 to 6 per hour you are way off the charts. I have certainly had those 2 hour hunts where you move 20 birds, but those are very rare indeed.

6. I do think that the hot weather has made finding birds much more difficult this year.

7. I have noticed Grouse using the trees more than they used to. I realize that they use trees every day and a large percentage of re-flushes come from trees. I am talking about first flushes from trees, or a dog working a bird for 100 yards only to have it flush from a tree. Or seeing birds flush up into the tree as the dog moves in on them. I am experiencing this way more than I used to. How many birds are letting us walk right under them without flushing at all?


There is an awful lot that our biologists don’t know about grouse. Sure, there is reason for concern and habitat will always be one of the keys. I think we need to enjoy our time in the woods with friends, both 2 legged and four legged. Appreciate the birds we flush and harvest. We will have better years ahead and other years will be worse than this.


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## anon09082020

Ronnem said:


> The grouse population is not going to come back in the lower peninsula of Michigan or any other state for that matter. The grouse populations have been pushed into "pockets" and then hunted till carry over birds are non-existent(no replacement rate). Currently the carry over birds lack the genetic diversity to produce viable eggs. They are too closely related. Nothing is being done by anyone except Pennsylvania, and all they did was look for something to blame it on, like PGC has always done and they found it. Although it
> isn't the real culprit it is something to blame and yes, many will fall for it.
> 
> Biologist have been running a playbook in regards to ruffed grouse for about 60 years now. Just think if the Biologists' data that they used to compile that playbook was wrong. We have been doing everything they want, we are even at the point where biologist know what grouse need even more than the grouse and yet no grouse. It is comical that biologist can change the definition of the word "Habitat" just to suit their needs and we bought it
> hook line and sinker. *YOU CAN'T HAVE "HABITAT" WITHOUT "INHABITANTS",* and frankly biologist don't have a clue as to what true ruffed grouse habitat(natural environment) really is. they are literally just appeasing the the lumber industry. That is it, it is all about an industry and nothing to do with ruffed grouse. it's funny that if you look at the definition of the word habitat, as meaning: the natural environment where something is and compare it
> to today this is what you get. We look at aspen cuttings and scream "grouse habitat grouse habitat" but in reality an aspen cutting isn't a natural environment for the aspen tree nor the ruffed grouse but I get it someone gets to make a lot of money off of calling aspen cuttings grouse habitat.
> 
> So for all you "grouse populations naturally cycle" believers and "old growth bad", "young woods good" believers and all you "aspen are the greatest" believers and all you rainy nesting season(by the way, I'm told historically spring is the wettest time of year) who believe you can have habitat without inhabitants, well here it is and get ready, because if you think the grouse populations are just going to spring back from nothing to something, well your in for a lifelong wait and without change it will not happen.
> 
> Ron



Ron-

Please tell us what the problem is and solution since everyone else is so ignorant ? What is ideal grouse habitat according to you ? How much study have you put into grouse that these "timber industry biologists" haven't ? 

Please enlighten us 

If it is some ******** similar to your other postings in the section I am sure it will give a good chuckle.


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## Lamarsh

Well, this escalated fast...


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## bedlyblaster

i must be older than everyone on this forum. 61 and been grouse hunting since i was 10 or so. i am retired now so i get to walk in the woods almost every day during the season. this is one of the tuffest years for ruffed grouse that i can recall. not sure why. i didnt see the big families that i have seen in the past. i think the biggest group of birds i saw early on was 6 or so and that was only one family. most other family groups i ran into were only 2 or 3 birds. for some reason nesting or brood survival was very poor this year. i remember just a few years ago finding many family groups of birds of 6-10 early in the season. am seeing a lot more tree flushers also but i think they are last years birds that are very smart. i also posted a few weeks ago an article that MN, WI closed the grouse season in the 40's because of lack of grouse and MI was considering it. But the birds bounced back. all we can do is hope there is a rebound next year. i am not hearing false drumming this season, when there are a lot of birds usually will hear a lot of drumming on nice days. not hearing many gunshots on the weekend that is a tell tale sign in itself, usually when WC opens i hear lots of multiple shots. another thing that i see now that i never ran into before is coyotes. i am seeing them in the day and everywhere i hunt i see coyote poo full of hair and who knows what else. i know they are not supposed to be big grouse predators but if every covert has a coyote family running around it they could ruin the season in that covert if they stumble on the nest. i dont know if any of you belong to the fraternal order of dedicated grouse hunters but that publication has been discussing the negative impact turkey numbers may be having on grouse for quite a while now. it is interesting to note that i am seeing huge family groups of young turkeys, they seemed to weather the storm in good shape. it would be interesting to hear from the dnr if they are reading this.


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## Ky fastflyer

This may be totally irrelevant to you guy's in Mi, but, I got home this weekend from a trip to Mn.
I'd say from last year, numbers were down at least a 1/3, and hunters numbers were up 2/3 not an ideal combination, but I don't know of a state that's not down this year unless it's a western state.

We started out hunting popple cuts and would find 1-2 grouse if we were lucky mostly WC, then we started hunting the edges of tag alder swamps and also along creeks / rivers that had a mix of post size aspen, conifers and tag alders and that's where the birds were...
Hope this helps, good luck.


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## Josh R

Where are we at in the cycle? I thought I heard Al Stewart taking about being 2-3 years on the up swing of the bottom of the cycle.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## SWMbruiser

Josh R said:


> Where are we at in the cycle? I thought I heard Al Stewart taking about being 2-3 years on the up swing of the bottom of the cycle.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


2015 was the bottom I believe. Should peak 2020

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## slammer

thefishyscent said:


> Ron-
> 
> Please tell us what the problem is and solution since everyone else is so ignorant ? What is ideal grouse habitat according to you ? How much study have you put into grouse that these "timber industry biologists" haven't ?
> 
> Please enlighten us
> 
> If it is some ******** similar to your other postings in the section I am sure it will give a good chuckle.


He is either a anti hunter or trying to turn people off from hunting so he can corner the market...


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## N M Mechanical

Are you guys ready to give up on this cycle bs yet and believe in weather


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## birdhntr

Ray Adams said:


> It goes without saying: bird hunting encompasses far more than flush rates or bag limits.
> Nonetheless, as bird hunters, we're obviously looking for bird contacts - for us and the dogs.
> 
> I've been hunting grouse and woodcock (and pheasant, to a lesser degree) since 1987. I'm in my early 40s and currently have the best dog I've ever owned. I'm in as good, if not better shape, than I was in my 20s. I mostly hunt the Lower Peninsula, but have hunted the UP, WI and South Dakota. I hunt about 30 days per season and train during the off-season.
> 
> All this aside, I've never struggled as hard to find birds (grouse and woodcock) as I have this year. I've hunted through this year's oppressive heat and drought, checking creek bottoms, along lakes, in aspen cuts, among the oaks, beside cedar swamps, edge cover, etc. etc...
> 
> The situation really has me scratching my head. Woodcock have been tough, but grouse are mainly nonexistent. Remembering past peak years in the cycle in the late 1980s, 1990s and 2009, it seems like we should be nearing another apex, yet, in my experience, numbers are at all-time lows.
> 
> From reading other posts, I know others have been experiencing similar situations, but I'd love to hear theories as to why. I've considered possibilities like a poor nesting period, drought, avian influenza, snowless winters, poor mast production, etc, but can't come to terms with what I've been seeing (or not seeing.)
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Ray


I would like to share my perspective on this Ray.When you hunt that hard it's the pinnacle of hunting when you put a bird in hand over a fine dog.Though I enjoy a blessed day of hunting with great success my fondest memories are of my hardest hunts to succeed through perseverance,time, and hard work.The harder it is the greater the reward.


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## Canvsbk

I shot my first grouse in 1964. Been after them ever since. This year I have 10 days or so in the NWLP and at least another 10 in the U.P. so far.
Bird numbers are definitely down. Very few young and dumb if any. The dog and I enjoy each other but more birds would make it better.
I agree with the gentleman above - in 50+ years of hunting grouse in Michigan I’ve never seen anything that would point to a “cycle”. It’s all about the weather.


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## Lucky Dog

N M Mechanical said:


> Are you guys ready to give up on this cycle bs yet and believe in weather


LOL.. I gave up on the mythical cycle 20 years ago.


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## birdhntr

Canvsbk said:


> I shot my first grouse in 1964. Been after them ever since. This year I have 10 days or so in the NWLP and at least another 10 in the U.P. so far.
> Bird numbers are definitely down. Very few young and dumb if any. The dog and I enjoy each other but more birds would make it better.
> I agree with the gentleman above - in 50+ years of hunting grouse in Michigan I’ve never seen anything that would point to a “cycle”. It’s all about the weather.


The best two years in the last ten for me was 2015,2016. So that means my peak is at they're low?Weather has to be the key factor.The bad winter and drought decimated the Midwest pheasant populations anywhere from 40% to 80% from what I have read.


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## 2ESRGR8

For you young guys that are new to this forum when bedlyblaster posts you should pay attention. 

I'm in agreement with most here.

Ron, I think you're crazy but want you to know I'm listening. You've killed a bunch of grouse and done it unconventionally for a lot of years. I've been around long enough to know not to discount anything when it comes to trying to figure out ruffed grouse. 

I certainly believe there is a cycle, too much data and science to back up that claim throughout the lake states region not to believe it. 

What's going on? Grouse broods have been non-existant to me and my circle of hunters this year. Someone wrote "catastrophic hatch" earlier, that's what I think happened to the grouse. I've shot fewer juveniles than adults this year by a wide margin, that's not good. In my locale, NE lower, on June 14 it started to rain and rained for 16 of the next 17 days.
Chicks died. 
But where are the woodcock? I had a very good year banding wc and had historically high flush rates on grouse moved during that time. Certainly the wc are/were old enough to survive those June rains. So where are they? 
This brings me to the good news. 
I think they're out there somewhere that we are unwilling to look. Certainly not in the places we traditionally kill them and the places we like to hunt them(young aspen stands).
I think they are in very wet places, summer places that remain green through the drought of summer which this October has been very HOT and dry until yesterday. 
I've had a few spectacular days on ruffs this year, food concentrates them. Food next to wet places especially. Always amazed at how vulnerable a grouse will make itself for a food source at the right time. 
I bet it gets better now that "Fall like" weather is moving in. Still think that numbers are down a bit from last year because of the loss of hatch birds but not as bad as Ray's season has been. The first ten days of November could be epic.


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## Gamekeeper

As many here might know, I am a data centered grouse hunter.
The number of young birds is lower this year.
Lowest ever? Doubt it.
Habitat is expanding in unprecedented ways.
It will fill in.

FWIW, in this mos RGS mag they talk about feeding the Weyerhauser plant on 4 mile south of Grayling.
I, and my people, are building a 1 mile square Aspen eater directly across the road. It will force early successional like none of you have ever seen.
From 61 north will be early successional dog hair for the next 25 years.
Better get used to porcupines, and woodcock in the bristle.

Grouse hunting is dry land fishing.
Learn to pattern, learn an area, and then when 3 tries at A doesn't work, make 3 at B, then 3 at C until you strike, then stay on it.

Grouse are capable of explosive reproduction, (though not quite as dramatic as desert quail) so, one year of 10 egg clutches can populate the cuttings in two seasons. And then BOOM! 3 bale cotton.


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## Lucky Dog

2ESRGR8 said:


> I certainly believe there is a cycle, too much data and science to back up that claim throughout the lake states region not to believe it.


Where can a person find this data and science? Especially the data and science from Michigan?


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## Gamekeeper

I'd agree with a "Cycle", in the sense that grouse are short lived, and that over a 20 year period we would see good hatch years, and bad. So, the lines of #'s/acre get exaggerated up and down through the simultaneous coincidence of events, and then the moves toward and away from the peaks and valleys.

Weather, I believe, dominates on a covert by covert basis. Whether it's less rain, fewer bugs, a sleet storm, housing, whatever.


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## setterpoint

we get out ever morning for a few hours we found birds but not as good as last year and found a few young birds but most of the birds we did get were big grouse so i think the rain we had thru the nesting time had a lot to do with not getting into the young birds like last year


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## Lamarsh

I don't _not_ believe in a cycle to some extent; however, I think there is a tendency for grouse hunters (and other hunters) to be inclined to chalk things up to too few of factors such as weather or some intangible cycle, when IMO the whole truth lies there, somewhere in between, and elsewhere. Grouse, like many other animals, live in a dynamic environment and the things that affect their survival and numbers are multifaceted. Weather affects them, I'm sure there is some kind of cycle that can be patterned while holding all other factors constant (in theory), but I think other things come into play such as the status of _other _creatures and plants that may affect grouse, disease, and habitat loss/growth. 

In sum, there are lots of moving parts. That is not to say this kind of discussion is fruitless. On the contrary, I think it's worthwhile and interesting, and is likely a main fireside topic at most grouse camps, making this discussion part of the whole fun of it.


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## FieldWalker

We tried to hunt as much as the heat and wind allowed last week. A vast majority of our "good spots" produced nothing. When we were in AO with Goldrod, they were almost stacked on top of each other. We also didn't run into any real numbers or doodles until Friday morning.


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## 2ESRGR8

Lucky Dog said:


> Where can a person find this data and science? Especially the data and science from Michigan?


http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/grouse_woodcock_early_season2016_536461_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/rg_aw_status_in_michigan_2017_600537_7.pdf
http://www.ruffedgrousesociety.org/...Grouse and Woodcock Hunt Results#.We9comhSzyQ


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## dallasdog

my experience this year has been opposite of most of yours. Birds seem to be about the same as last year of maybe even up. I have also killed about half young birds and half mature birds. Not sure what is going on or if I am just lucky. I live in the UP and hunt a lot of days.


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## zig

Ray Adams said:


> It goes without saying: bird hunting encompasses far more than flush rates or bag limits.
> Nonetheless, as bird hunters, we're obviously looking for bird contacts - for us and the dogs.
> 
> I've been hunting grouse and woodcock (and pheasant, to a lesser degree) since 1987. I'm in my early 40s and currently have the best dog I've ever owned. I'm in as good, if not better shape, than I was in my 20s. I mostly hunt the Lower Peninsula, but have hunted the UP, WI and South Dakota. I hunt about 30 days per season and train during the off-season.
> 
> All this aside, I've never struggled as hard to find birds (grouse and woodcock) as I have this year. I've hunted through this year's oppressive heat and drought, checking creek bottoms, along lakes, in aspen cuts, among the oaks, beside cedar swamps, edge cover, etc. etc...
> 
> The situation really has me scratching my head. Woodcock have been tough, but grouse are mainly nonexistent. Remembering past peak years in the cycle in the late 1980s, 1990s and 2009, it seems like we should be nearing another apex, yet, in my experience, numbers are at all-time lows.
> 
> From reading other posts, I know others have been experiencing similar situations, but I'd love to hear theories as to why. I've considered possibilities like a poor nesting period, drought, avian influenza, snowless winters, poor mast production, etc, but can't come to terms with what I've been seeing (or not seeing.)
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Ray



This has been my experience so far this year. Just got back yesterday from a 10 day trip to the Northern Lower. Worst year I have ever had by a long shot, not even close. I'd say it was 3-4X worse than any year I have ever had. This is my 27th year carrying a gun, and my 33rd or 34th going. The members of the hunting party I had growing up have either passed or just can't get out anymore, so I've had a new party that I put together a few years back. So, I am the official "guide" so to say, and I spent a lot of time over the 10 days "theorizing."

While my grouse numbers were the worst I've experienced, the woodcock for me were horrendous. An average day for me was always 30-50 birds. The composition of which varied, but usually 10-20 grouse and 20-30 woodcock was the norm. Honestly, I'm so confused from my trip, I don't really know what to think at this point. Here are some observations I've made. 

After talking to some guys I ran into, I think there is some truth to the influenza and poor nesting period claims. I'm also not a real believer in the cycles, but only because my numbers frequently go against what the "cycle" says (both positively and negatively). So, after almost 30 years, it's hard to put a lot of faith in that. I do realize it could just be coincidence though.

I think the biggest things I notice are lack of habitat, quality of habitat and access to habitat. I know I whined last year about the lack of cuttings and most people poo pooed it as me whining. But, in my areas, there are 1000's and 1000's of acres, entire valleys and massive amounts of state land that haven't been touched in 10-15 years. Then, there are other areas where it looks like they cut it all in one year. So, yeah, that's going to be good one day, but for right now it's all either too mature or too young. But, I don't really want to go down the path of that conversation. 

The quality of the habitat is something else. And, this may just be me trying to find reasons to help explain the lack of birds. But, I cannot help but feel that the resulting new flora/biota from a cut area is becoming different than I am used to seeing. I'm no biologist, so I don't really know how to explain it, but the diversity is not there. I think some of you probably know what I'm talking about. Take a cutting where the trees are of the same age/size and look at the floor. I swear that it is becoming more common that the floor of newer cuttings is much less diverse than it used to be. It's open, dry, just doesn't have that look, that smell. If there is any truth to this, the only possible cause must be weather?? I'm not saying that these areas will not hold birds (although I will say they pretty much will not hold grouse) as they will hold woodcock. But, in my opinion they only hold them when the ferns are still mostly upright. My experience is that when those ferns dry up and keel over, other than massive flight pushes, move on.

The other thing I've noticed is the lack of access to get "off the beaten path." For those of us that have hunted the northern lower for a lot of years, we all know what the main drags are. And, if you're going to hunt that stand along the main drag, you're going to be hunting a stand along the main drag. For those of use that try to really get off it, it seems to me that I increasingly run into two tracks that have pot holes over the hood of my truck, destruction that wasn't repaired after logging, etc. So, it seems harder than normal over more recent years to really venture out. 

Next, the lack of the small spots. Growing up we had so many little patches of public land to hunt. I mean, 50 acres here, 80 acres there. And, these spots were almost always more productive than the big patches. But, they were either sold off or it's just not worth it to maintain such a small parcel, so they are homes for squirrels now.

My experience is I don't see as many hunters as I used to. I feel pretty confident in saying I see fewer than I saw 15-20 years ago. But, that's just my experience. 

I tried everything this year. I tried areas that I normally would not try, ever. I would say I learned some new things doing that though. But I am confident in saying that something has gone awry with both species. To those guys that had decent hunts, I'm happy for you, but somethings definitely going on....


----------



## zig

Oh, and a couple more things. To the guy in Kalkaska that got my dog with his leg trap not even a foot off the two track of a parking area for prime cover, pound sand. And, to the guy with the GWP north of there that seriously tried to convince me (after I pulled into a spot) that we were dressed too pretty and I needed to be hunting in waders down in the swamp not up the hill I was walking, we saw 6 grouse and 8 woodcock in two hours.


----------



## Nostromo

zig said:


> Oh, and a couple more things. To the guy in Kalkaska that got my dog with his leg trap not even a foot off the two track of a parking area for prime cover, pound sand. And, to the guy with the GWP north of there that seriously tried to convince me (after I pulled into a spot) that we were dressed too pretty and I needed to be hunting in waders down in the swamp not up the hill I was walking, we saw 6 grouse and 8 woodcock in two hours.


Sounds like a good day, all in all.


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## Ky fastflyer

Here's a link if it'll open???

http://www.grandforkshearld.com/out...mn-biologist-cant-explain-poor-grouse-hunting


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## Ky fastflyer

Maybe someone else can get it to upload....


----------



## Nostromo

I think the "cycle" has been observed long enough to be established as a fact. It's just the exact cause the evades the biologists.

Maybe someday we'll know.


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## Steelheadfred

You can look at my logs and see a cycle, you can also see correction years. 


Nostromo said:


> I think the "cycle" has been observed long enough to be established as a fact. It's just the exact cause the evades the biologists.
> 
> Maybe someday we'll know.


----------



## Ray Adams

Steelheadfred said:


> You can look at my logs and see a cycle, you can also see correction years.


If you wouldn't mind posting a PDF of your log here, I'd love to take a look!


----------



## Steelheadfred

Ray, send me an email [email protected]


----------



## fowl

http://wildlife.org/jwm-study-west-nile-could-be-impacting-pennsylvania-grouse/


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## Merimac

Crappy year for birds in my travels so far.


----------



## dauber

2ESRGR8 said:


> For you young guys that are new to this forum when bedlyblaster posts you should pay attention.
> 
> I'm in agreement with most here.
> 
> Ron, I think you're crazy but want you to know I'm listening. You've killed a bunch of grouse and done it unconventionally for a lot of years. I've been around long enough to know not to discount anything when it comes to trying to figure out ruffed grouse.
> 
> I certainly believe there is a cycle, too much data and science to back up that claim throughout the lake states region not to believe it.
> 
> What's going on? Grouse broods have been non-existant to me and my circle of hunters this year. Someone wrote "catastrophic hatch" earlier, that's what I think happened to the grouse. I've shot fewer juveniles than adults this year by a wide margin, that's not good. In my locale, NE lower, on June 14 it started to rain and rained for 16 of the next 17 days.
> Chicks died.
> But where are the woodcock? I had a very good year banding wc and had historically high flush rates on grouse moved during that time. Certainly the wc are/were old enough to survive those June rains. So where are they?
> This brings me to the good news.
> I think they're out there somewhere that we are unwilling to look. Certainly not in the places we traditionally kill them and the places we like to hunt them(young aspen stands).
> I think they are in very wet places, summer places that remain green through the drought of summer which this October has been very HOT and dry until yesterday.
> I've had a few spectacular days on ruffs this year, food concentrates them. Food next to wet places especially. Always amazed at how vulnerable a grouse will make itself for a food source at the right time.
> I bet it gets better now that "Fall like" weather is moving in. Still think that numbers are down a bit from last year because of the loss of hatch birds but not as bad as Ray's season has been. The first ten days of November could be epic.


I think this is spot on, other than woodcock in my area are a little younger in early June and I think were affected as well. My spring exploits in the EUP had good numbers of drummers and good numbers sighted. The hatch was terrible. This poorly timed rains hit much of the UP, Northern Wisconsin and NE Minnesota as well as NE NLP. 
But I’ve had a good season so far, up slightly in flushes and kills. The bad is I’m at 25% young birds still. The warm days late in September were tough, but once it cooled off here I found birds in all kinds of covers. They didn’t have to concentrate since there was food everywhere. Even some of the grouse I shot a week ago had almost all green leaves. Scenting has improved greatly the last week with the cooler weather so I think it will improve now to end of season. 
Let’s hope for a good hatch next spring!


----------



## zig

Not trying to throw this thread off and I know this isn't a major reason for what people have experienced this year, but has the DNR every considered a bounty for coyotes? I know a lot of you guys have more years and experience than me, but this is my 27th running dogs and carrying a gun. I grew up in Van Buren county, and in the 1990's, while not frequent, it wasn't out of the question for me to kick up a grouse in December while rabbit hunting. A coyote at that time was quite rare, not even thought about really. Then, all of the sudden, one day you wake up to a howling den. I realize that area is much more developed now, but the areas I hunted in Van Buren and adjacent counties haven't changes that much. Haven't seen a grouse over that way in nearly 20 years and I see coyotes all the time. I don't know how much difference a bounty would make, just wonder if it's ever been considered.

I just reread my post... god that makes me sound old...


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## BIGSP

zig said:


> Not trying to throw this thread off and I know this isn't a major reason for what people have experienced this year, but has the DNR every considered a bounty for coyotes? I know a lot of you guys have more years and experience than me, but this is my 27th running dogs and carrying a gun. I grew up in Van Buren county, and in the 1990's, while not frequent, it wasn't out of the question for me to kick up a grouse in December while rabbit hunting. A coyote at that time was quite rare, not even thought about really. Then, all of the sudden, one day you wake up to a howling den. I realize that area is much more developed now, but the areas I hunted in Van Buren and adjacent counties haven't changes that much. Haven't seen a grouse over that way in nearly 20 years and I see coyotes all the time. I don't know how much difference a bounty would make, just wonder if it's ever been considered.
> 
> I just reread my post... god that makes me sound old...


I think you'd be surprised at how few birds coyotes actually kill. Everyone loves to blame ole coyote on grouse and pheasant numbers when they are low. The fact is most "adult" birds are killed by avian predators not ground predators. Ask the flushing dog guys how many birds their dogs catch, not many. Bad waste of coyotes time and energy trying to catch grouse.


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## Lucky Dog

zig said:


> Not trying to throw this thread off and I know this isn't a major reason for what people have experienced this year, but has the DNR every considered a bounty for coyotes? I know a lot of you guys have more years and experience than me, but this is my 27th running dogs and carrying a gun. I grew up in Van Buren county, and in the 1990's, while not frequent, it wasn't out of the question for me to kick up a grouse in December while rabbit hunting. A coyote at that time was quite rare, not even thought about really. Then, all of the sudden, one day you wake up to a howling den. I realize that area is much more developed now, but the areas I hunted in Van Buren and adjacent counties haven't changes that much. Haven't seen a grouse over that way in nearly 20 years and I see coyotes all the time. I don't know how much difference a bounty would make, just wonder if it's ever been considered.
> 
> I just reread my post... god that makes me sound old...


Michigan used to have a bounty on coyotes. $15 for males and $25 for females. 

Some will argue that coyotes are good for birds because they kill many of the primary nest robbers. 
Me I like them because when I here a coyote yipping in the UP, I know the coast is clear for those pesky wolves. Or at least that is what I tell myself.


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## zig

BIGSP said:


> I think you'd be surprised at how few birds coyotes actually kill. Everyone loves to blame ole coyote on grouse and pheasant numbers when they are low. The fact is most "adult" birds are killed by avian predators not ground predators. Ask the flushing dog guys how many birds their dogs catch, not many. Bad waste of coyotes time and energy trying to catch grouse.


Makes sense. So, then the disappearance of grouse in the south is strictly a habitat thing? The other day I was looking at some old photos. One of them was my dad in 1979. He had shot 3 grouse on a Saturday morning around Cassopolis... Pretty cool.


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## Ky fastflyer

BIGSP said:


> I think you'd be surprised at how few birds coyotes actually kill. Everyone loves to blame ole coyote on grouse and pheasant numbers when they are low. The fact is most "adult" birds are killed by avian predators not ground predators. Ask the flushing dog guys how many birds their dogs catch, not many. Bad waste of coyotes time and energy trying to catch grouse.


I believe you should be more concerned with bobcats catching grouse than coyotes, unless maybe chicks, I think a coyote would have a hard time catching a adult grouse..


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## fowl

I think the disappearance of grouse from S MI is from habitat loss and, wait for it..... climate change. Grouse there are at the southern edge of their range. They are a northern species that thrives in snow and northern forests. We don't have the cold snowy winters (on average) like we used to. I used to shoot grouse in sanilac county. We are seeing the same trend with species like snowshoe hares and moose. They are struggling at the southern edge of their range.


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## birdhntr

BIGSP said:


> I think you'd be surprised at how few birds coyotes actually kill. Everyone loves to blame ole coyote on grouse and pheasant numbers when they are low. The fact is most "adult" birds are killed by avian predators not ground predators. Ask the flushing dog guys how many birds their dogs catch, not many. Bad waste of coyotes time and energy trying to catch grouse.


May he true but ground nesting birds(woodcock, grouse,pheasants, turkeys, and waterfowl)sit tight as to not expose the nest location. I have walked up on all of the above and they don't move until you step on them.When a bird flies the eggs don't and there goes twelve eggs.Young rabbits too,they are clueless.There is a reason for the word vermin.The anti's think coyote's should eat all the wildlife for balance and not you.They want coyote hunting banned and want to ban hunting and hunters to be extinct.They think you should eat salad,tofu,bean burgers and think hunting is inhumane. Wildlife's only humane death is by the means of hunting, being eaten alive,dying of starvation, or disease,or to old and weak to survive is inhumane. If coyotes aren't having a profound effect on wildlife why did they change it to and open season? They are definitely having an effect on wildlife.There numbers are ridiculous. If coyotes are controlling ****,possum,skunks then why do I see a dozen of those at night and not a single rabbit? They prefer the same game we do,A domestic dog will eat a rabbit but only kill a skunk,**** or possum if they get a chance.promoting game population is the future of hunting.Without good game populations interest in hunting is going to continue to decline due to the lack of availability. Coyotes serve no purpose to game animals or hunting


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## BIGSP

fowl said:


> I think the disappearance of grouse from S MI is from habitat loss and, wait for it..... climate change. Grouse there are at the southern edge of their range. They are a northern species that thrives in snow and northern forests. We don't have the cold snowy winters (on average) like we used to. I used to shoot grouse in sanilac county. We are seeing the same trend with species like snowshoe hares and moose. They are struggling at the southern edge of their range.


There is almost zero habitat in S. Michigan.


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## michiganmaniac

fowl said:


> I think the disappearance of grouse from S MI is from habitat loss and, wait for it..... climate change. Grouse there are at the southern edge of their range. They are a northern species that thrives in snow and northern forests. We don't have the cold snowy winters (on average) like we used to. I used to shoot grouse in sanilac county. We are seeing the same trend with species like snowshoe hares and moose. They are struggling at the southern edge of their range.


I'm sorry but I just have to say this, if that was the main reason then why are there grouse in Georgia?
Habitat habitat habitat.


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## fowl

michiganmaniac said:


> I'm sorry but I just have to say this, if that was the main reason then why are there grouse in Georgia?
> Habitat habitat habitat.


There may be remnant grouse populations in the mountains in GA, appalachians, etc. But southerners come to MI to hunt grouse. No one from the gr lakes states goes south to hunt grouse. If predators were the limiting factor cottontails and turkeys would be scarce. And they are doing great.


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## Gnoyes

This cool down has been a game changer in my neck of the woods. Been on a couple quick hunts the past two days and traditional covers that have been almost empty for me this season all are overflowing with grouse and flight woodcock. The woodcock aren't a surprise, but it's almost hard to fathom where the grouse came from. Unfortunately my shooting has been absolutely abysmal. Go figure.

We've lost a lot of leaves this week, that seems to have really pushed the birds into the young stuff, out of whatever hole in the ground they rode out the heat in.

I've not seen many young birds or family groups either, with the exception of the seemingly sick or wounded grouse my springer retrieved out of the middle of a two track while on a walk with my wife a week before the opener. I wrote it off as being dropped by a hawk. The talk of west nile makes me wonder. I agree with theories of a cold wet spring making for a bad hatch. I remember cringing at the amount of cold wet weather we had up north during late May early June. 

And I can't let it go unsaid... habitat is certainly not the issue in the NLP, as I see it. There is so much prime cover around right now it has my head spinning. Maybe that's why I can't hit anything.

Good luck


----------



## gundogguy

zig said:


> Makes sense. So, then the disappearance of grouse in the south is strictly a habitat thing? The other day I was looking at some old photos. One of them was my dad in 1979. He had shot 3 grouse on a Saturday morning around Cassopolis... Pretty cool.


Right-on! 78-87 Van Buren County just north of Cass, Grouse and WC very plentiful.
In 87 Nancy and I moved to our Three Rivers location just east of Cassopolis, many forum folks have trained here. Had many occasions to bag grouse and WC up until about 1991. Then nothing since.


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## woodwise

JBooth said:


> Grouse aren't being found dead, with full crops, because of a lack of habitat. My first guess would be a disease. With the warm weather and resurgence of mosquitoes late in the year I'd guess they are transmitting something. Next time you find a dead one, drop it off with a wildlife biologist.


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## Trophy Specialist

I too have been a bit disappointed this year. My flush rate on grouse last year was close to five per hour. They must have had problems with the wet/cold, spring and summer because my flush rate this year is less than half of last year with very few family groups seen. When you are flushing scattered, single, adult birds, it is tough hunting. Very few young birds seen this year which is the key to success.


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## woodwise

We turned over two dead grouse to Michigan Biologist Bruce Barlow, One grouse from Missaulke co. And one from Roscommon. Co. Both found dead on two-tracks shortly before 2017 opener. Both birds tested positive for ( West Nile)... Several blue Jays , Crows and horses have tested positive also. As a coverdog field trialer we train the second quiet season opens . We found bevys of birds early. Within weeks we had several dogs catching young birds, which is very odd... And several weeks later we never seen the bevys again , the bevys we did contact we're dramatically reduced. The first two weeks of August started and only few adult birds were getting pointed. We train from m55- Noth to m72 and east of lake to Roscommon. That's a good chunk of good grouse habitat. Are Number are down 60% from last year. Are trips to U P near Newberry have proven very similar results.. I feel my nucleus of friends, which we own , train and compete with Champions and Championship quality coverdog would tell you no different..


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## NATTY BUMPO

woodwise said:


> We turned over two dead grouse to Michigan Biologist Bruce Barlow, One grouse from Missaulke co. And one from Roscommon. Co. Both found dead on two-tracks shortly before 2017 opener. Both birds tested positive for ( West Nile)... Several blue Jays , Crows and horses have tested positive also. As a coverdog field trialer we train the second quiet season opens . We found bevys of birds early. Within weeks we had several dogs catching young birds, which is very odd... And several weeks later we never seen the bevys again , the bevys we did contact we're dramatically reduced. The first two weeks of August started and only few adult birds were getting pointed. We train from m55- Noth to m72 and east of lake to Roscommon. That's a good chunk of good grouse habitat. Are Number are down 60% from last year. Are trips to U P near Newberry have proven very similar results.. I feel my nucleus of friends, which we own , train and compete with Champions and Championship quality coverdog would tell you no different..


Excellent Post.

When we were hunting in Dickenson Co. last week, Scout brought back a young dead grouse which showed no signs of trauma. He could have made a nice taxidermy specimen. When I dressed him out, the crop was full of the usual greens, seeds etc , no shot wounds, , and he was in good flesh too. There was no post mortem changes noted either; he had died very recently. All of the internal organs appeared to be completely normal by gross examination.

So, what caused this mortality? Maybe the answer is in the post directly above.


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## Nostromo

There might be something to that theory.

https://www.cdc.gov/westnile/statsmaps/preliminarymapsdata2017/activitystate.html

https://www.cdc.gov/westnile/statsmaps/cumMapsData.html#one









Wisconsin








Minnesota








Pennsylvania








Ohio (Has little or no Aspen forest)


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## Trophy Specialist

Interesting. I did see a couple Bluejays on my property in August acting stupid, then the next day they were both dead.


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## gundogguy

woodwise said:


> We turned over two dead grouse to Michigan Biologist Bruce Barlow, One grouse from Missaulke co. And one from Roscommon. Co. Both found dead on two-tracks shortly before 2017 opener. Both birds tested positive for ( West Nile)... Several blue Jays , Crows and horses have tested positive also. As a coverdog field trialer we train the second quiet season opens . We found bevys of birds early. Within weeks we had several dogs catching young birds, which is very odd... And several weeks later we never seen the bevys again , the bevys we did contact we're dramatically reduced. The first two weeks of August started and only few adult birds were getting pointed. We train from m55- Noth to m72 and east of lake to Roscommon. That's a good chunk of good grouse habitat. Are Number are down 60% from last year. Are trips to U P near Newberry have proven very similar results.. I feel my nucleus of friends, which we own , train and compete with Champions and Championship quality coverdog would tell you no different..





NATTY BUMPO said:


> Excellent Post.
> 
> When we were hunting in Dickenson Co. last week, Scout brought back a young dead grouse which showed no signs of trauma. He could have made a nice taxidermy specimen. When I dressed him out, the crop was full of the usual greens, seeds etc , no shot wounds, , and he was in good flesh too. There was no post mortem changes noted either; he had died very recently. All of the internal organs appeared to be completely normal by gross examination.
> 
> So, what caused this mortality? Maybe the answer is in the post directly above.


Two excellent observations made by experienced dog and cover folks. 
If I was in a business that relied on birds in cover I would be getting to the bottom of this situation pronto. This thread has brought attention to a situation that just may be a game changer for many many people.


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## BassFisher91

Those graphs Nostromo posted are pretty discouraging, especially the second to last one. I really hope a reason (and then solution) is found for this. Something that was encouraging to me today was the most amount of grouse I've seen all year in one day. I didn't keep track, but I'd say around 25 grouse flushed for about 4 hours of hunting. The unfortunate thing was my dog was having an extremely hard time hunting today...consistently creeping on birds when I got up somewhat close to him and in turn bumped em'. Something was going on with him.

Most birds were found in pine, but near aspen and some oak. Wintergreen was all over. Most birds were in groups as well, or at least very close to each other.


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## BIGSP

I'm not ready to buy into the WNV theory yet. We had a horrible June weather pattern, could WNV be a factor? Sure, could it be a combination, absolutely. Time will tell.


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## Steelheadfred

Grouse are incredibly fragile bird, they die easy, they are terrible mothers who essentially follow their chicks around, they were put on this planet to be eaten. This is simply a bad year.

I'm also seeing in the northern lower, in the UP and in MN habitat that is a touch to young, and a touch to old. This makes the bad years worse but also hurts the good years. Barring a wide scale diseases, global warming, I see the next 20 years being better than the last 20.


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## Lamarsh

Steelheadfred said:


> they were put on this planet to be eaten


Their taste certainly lends to this theory!


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## NATTY BUMPO

Re grouse chicks..........

There is an old Vet adage: A Wet Chick is a Dead Chick.

Never more true, than this year.


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## Steelheadfred

We are at that point in the season where bird numbers don't matter, what matters is the last opportunities to walk, especially in a season that finding weather and temps to walk challenging. Cheers to wild birds in wild places


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## ejzoe67

Well said steelheadfred!


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## Timber

Steelheadfred said:


> We are at that point in the season where bird numbers don't matter, what matters is the last opportunities to walk, especially in a season that finding weather and temps to walk challenging. Cheers to wild birds in wild places


And that's why I hunt every single day because one never knows when it will be his last opportunity so many variables, live, hunt hard have fun, and love them dogs that seem go to soon!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## wirehair

The older I get the more birds there used to be.


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## Dave Medema

I've watched this thread over the last month and just consider myself lucky. My young pup is seeing enough grouse to begin the long process of becoming a grouse dog. I've only had one or two covers that had me confused as to grouse numbers and to balance that out other covers absolutely full of birds. My mature to young ratio is a bit skewed but not tragic. Overall, this fall is a bit down from last year but dang, last year was pretty good. Over the last 3 decades, I've had a lot of fun chasing these birds and hope to have more fun in the future. 

I don't hunt WC so can't comment on that.


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## Steelheadfred

Is this a west Nile bird? I'm pretty sure it's a re nest, born in August


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## SWMbruiser

Steelheadfred said:


> Is this a west Nile bird? I'm pretty sure it's a re nest, born in August


Now you're just showing off...lol

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## Steelheadfred

It is the smallest grouse I've killed this time of the year ever.


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## Mr. Botek

Steelheadfred said:


> It is the smallest grouse I've killed this time of the year ever.


You killed the first, and now last, of a newly evolving specie: the pygmy grouse.


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## Gamekeeper

The benefit in threads like this, even if they seem pedantic, is that our favorite bird gets the exposure and attention it needs to survive and possibly thrive, into the future.

The welfare of Ruffed grouse is important to us, and we need to keep their well being front and center. If they don't seem to be doing well, threads like this one help to keep their plight visible.

And, it's a rich enough sample to get needed attention.

After all, 10% of the fisherman catch 90% of the fish.


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## Zeboy

Steelheadfred said:


> Is this a west Nile bird? I'm pretty sure it's a re nest, born in August


Fritz - my only concern would be, why is the body weight so small in relationship to the tail feather length? I have killed birds before that were so young they had no tail feathers yet (usually in September though), but the bodies were more filled out than this anorexic / bulimic grouse you killed with tail feathers that are pretty much full length??


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## Steelheadfred

No, that picture doesn't show, this bird looks like an opening day bird. It's crop full of hazel nuts.


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## BIGSP

I spent the last couple of days in the UP and had the worst bird hunting in my 15 years of going up there. The only grouse brought home was one my dog caught after relocating on it quite a few times. I was certain I had a WNV grouse, extremely small tail fan, very lightweight, almost no breast muscles. In fact I was so certain, I was ready to drive over to Newberry to bring it to the DNR office. I then thought, lets do a quick examination of the bird, sure enough, full crop and a broken wing from probably a month or so ago. It had healed up quite a bit but obviously couldn't fly. This bird was probably born in August, which again says "Catastrophic first hatch". Pray for a good winter, spring and nesting season next year otherwise this year may look like a dream year for grouse.


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## Mark4486

I had the worst season until the weather broke. But I am not as seasoned as most and am slowly finding good spots. I to thought numbers were down until last weekend I went out with a buddy to a spot I hunted with no luck before but at a different time. We were flushing birds left and right, it brought the color back into my bird blues face. So I started thinking that time and place is everything. The numbers might be down but that doesn’t mean you can’t find a hot spot... u just gotta look. I also think that the data which biologist put out is good and somewhat helpful but there is hundreds of thousands of acres of land that they don’t cover so how accurate can it be.


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## birdhntr

Mark4486 said:


> I had the worst season until the weather broke. But I am not as seasoned as most and am slowly finding good spots. I to thought numbers were down until last weekend I went out with a buddy to a spot I hunted with no luck before but at a different time. We were flushing birds left and right, it brought the color back into my bird blues face. So I started thinking that time and place is everything. The numbers might be down but that doesn’t mean you can’t find a hot spot... u just gotta look. I also think that the data which biologist put out is good and somewhat helpful but there is hundreds of thousands of acres of land that they don’t cover so how accurate can it be.


NICE! The more you go the more you know.Timing,weather,food,and locations are the key to success.I am personally on the fence when it comes to the numbers this year.In August/early September I found a lot of birds and thought numbers were up.I spent very little time with the dog's running in the heat then but there was a lot of birds.Now that we have the weather we expect this time of year the covers and food sources should fall into place.Heading up for a week in a few days and can't wait to see if it goes like the last two years.We had one heck of a dinner the night before firearm Deer season!


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## Gamekeeper

It's true birds move around. They respond to pressure.
When bow hunters arrive, birds move in deeper, and then hit feed piles for a quick bite. Traffic noise sends them deeper.
Many bow hunters observe grouse coming to the corn.

Individual observation over a food concentrator isn't necessarily a good indicator of local population.



Mark4486 said:


> The numbers might be down but that doesn’t mean you can’t find a hot spot... u just gotta look. I also think that the data which biologist put out is good and somewhat helpful but there is hundreds of thousands of acres of land that they don’t cover so how accurate can it be.


???

There are men, I can't say I know any women, that are skilled finders of ruffed grouse over multi section areas. They maintain high seasonal contact data covering decades. They invest in, and maintain top flight dogs. They spend hours and hours all year round finding and observing ruffed grouse.

If those guys are saying the birds are missing from their haunts, you should listen.

If I find 6 in a pocket on the back side of a ridge, and then none under another couple miles of other quality habitat over the next hr, while it's a 6 bird hour, it's also a 2 mile piece of cover that shouldn't be empty.

Or, presuming less than 50% find rates among elite dogs, shouldn't be so low as to not find a few more within good habitat during that stretch. So empty/low number's it's a matter of semantics.

It can still be a matter of concern.


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## DaveforUP

I have not seen near the amount of birds this as last. Averaging 3 flushes a day. Last year in the area I hunt we averaged just over 10 flushes a day. We have tried all cover types, aspens, dif. year cuttings, oak ridges, cedar swamps. Putting in a lot of miles for a few birds. But, that is great also. Being in the woods in the fall, nothing better. It is also teaching the dog to work smarter. Instead of running into birds everywhere, she has to search for them.


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## Gamekeeper

DaveforUP said:


> I have not seen near the amount of birds this as last. Averaging 3 flushes a day. Last year in the area I hunt we averaged just over 10 flushes a day. We have tried all cover types, aspens, dif. year cuttings, oak ridges, cedar swamps. Putting in a lot of miles for a few birds. But, that is great also. Being in the woods in the fall, nothing better. It is also teaching the dog to work smarter. Instead of running into birds everywhere, she has to search for them.


I am beating this drum mostly because of the un-explained population collapses to the south. I want eyes and ears on it up here.
We are cutting like it's 1875, and the numbers gotta come up, or the model is flawed.


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## Lucky Dog

Gamekeeper said:


> We are cutting like it's 1875, and the numbers gotta come up, or the model is flawed.


Unless we are cutting the wrong stuff. Grouse cannot live on young aspen alone.


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## Gamekeeper

I never say this, choosing to believe my annual numbers are anomalous, but I kill waaay more birds in "other than Aspen" environments.
It makes me wonder if the Upper Great Lakes grouse habitat model is inappropriate for the Lower Penninsula. 

And that makes me feel like a dupe for Big Timber, rather than a champion of healthy sustainable forests and the upland lifestyle. I usually get over it by banquet season.


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## Steelheadfred

Gamekeeper said:


> I never say this, choosing to believe my annual numbers are anomalous, but I kill waaay more birds in "other than Aspen" environments.
> It makes me wonder if the Upper Great Lakes grouse habitat model is inappropriate for the Lower Penninsula.
> 
> And that makes me feel like a dupe for Big Timber, rather than a champion of healthy sustainable forests and the upland lifestyle. I usually get over it by banquet season.


Quiet down


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## firemanstevec34

Gamekeeper said:


> I never say this, choosing to believe my annual numbers are anomalous, but I kill waaay more birds in "other than Aspen" environments.
> It makes me wonder if the Upper Great Lakes grouse habitat model is inappropriate for the Lower Penninsula.
> 
> And that makes me feel like a dupe for Big Timber, rather than a champion of healthy sustainable forests and the upland lifestyle. I usually get over it by banquet season.


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## firemanstevec34

My sons and I hunted the edges of aspen thickets for the last three days. Dog pointed plenty of woodcock but no grouse. We moved into the big hardwood timber with a good mix of pines and put up 12 grouse in an hour and a half. Best hunting we have ever had in the upper lower. Both of my sons 15 and 12 got their first grouse.


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## birdhntr

firemanstevec34 said:


> My sons and I hunted the edges of aspen thickets for the last three days. Dog pointed plenty of woodcock but no grouse. We moved into the big hardwood timber with a good mix of pines and put up 12 grouse in an hour and a half. Best hunting we have ever had in the upper lower. Both of my sons 15 and 12 got their first grouse.


That's the best read on this whole thread.way to go dad!future sportsman to respect and protect our resource's in the makings.AWESOME!


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Quiet down


hmmm!


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## Grouseman2

Aspen thickets make for good photos and Pointing Dog Journal cover shots. 

Mike


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## Mark4486

I would have to agree... my private property that I hunt is all hard woods mixed with some pines 90/10... and we always get birds there. But we seem to do good late in the evening.


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## Ronnem

And now that everyone is figuring out the flawed Aspen data and turning to the other types of true grouse environment you will see the "poof the grouse are gone" scenario. We have more Aspen cuttings and less other cover and now everyone is going to hunt the other cover killing off the remaining "pockets" of grouse. But lets not forget, hunters have no effect on grouse populations just ask any biologist, it is a scientific fact, which is also false, not sure how something can be both scientific fact and false at the same time but I'll let biologist explain that one. The southern fallout line(at least that is what I am calling it) in the lower P is moving north at a extremely fast rate. I predicated 50 years a couple years back. Grouse will be gone from the lower p of Michigan within 20 years at current rate. don't expect any effort from MDNR they could careless. 

Ron


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## sureshot006

I'm flushing lots of young grouse NELP. Not much for older birds though. not actively hunting them either.


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## setterpoint

im from the south in tenn.20 years ago we had lots of grouse clear cutting was ever where but the grouse are gone so i built my cabin in michigan to grouse hunt . i have no proff of this but when the trukeys started to boom the grouse numbers started going down know some people in ohio say the same thing as i said tenn has a lot of prime hadatat but no grouse what happen to them is anybodys guess


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## Lamarsh

Gamekeeper said:


> I never say this, choosing to believe my annual numbers are anomalous, but I kill waaay more birds in "other than Aspen" environments.
> It makes me wonder if the Upper Great Lakes grouse habitat model is inappropriate for the Lower Penninsula.
> 
> And that makes me feel like a dupe for Big Timber, rather than a champion of healthy sustainable forests and the upland lifestyle. I usually get over it by banquet season.





firemanstevec34 said:


> My sons and I hunted the edges of aspen thickets for the last three days. Dog pointed plenty of woodcock but no grouse. We moved into the big hardwood timber with a good mix of pines and put up 12 grouse in an hour and a half. Best hunting we have ever had in the upper lower. Both of my sons 15 and 12 got their first grouse.


Similar observations from me in the past month. We hit plenty of that "quintessential" broomstick popple and, while we found a good amount of woodcock in those covers, barely any grouse. Our grouse finds were primarily in two types of covers the past few weeks, (1) dark cedar swamps in thickets of wet alders, and (2) oak brush with under-stories of drying ferns and the sporadic cluster of thorn-apples adjacent to mature timber. All of the cover we have hunted had an under-story of micro-greens, many wintergreen, but a lot of stuff I cannot recognize. Crops were filled with almost exclusively these micro-greens. 

Our flush rates have been about 2 grouse per hour, but we are hunting with novice grouse dogs, and I'd say I am a novice grouse hunter.


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## Ky fastflyer

setterpoint said:


> im from the south in tenn.20 years ago we had lots of grouse clear cutting was ever where but the grouse are gone so i built my cabin in michigan to grouse hunt . i have no proff of this but when the trukeys started to boom the grouse numbers started going down know some people in ohio say the same thing as i said tenn has a lot of prime hadatat but no grouse what happen to them is anybodys guess


I'll second that right there!!!


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## Ronnem

300,000 acres converted to a mono culture of jack pines for a migratory bird for nesting. NOPE, that had nothing to do with the grouse populations. Convert the rest of the forest to fast growth soft wood and allow none of it to age past 50 years and reduce the overall age of forest by 60% and eliminate all old growth forest and old growth foliage. NOPE that has nothing to do with it. Blame anything and everything you want just don't blame biologist or the DNR. 

Ron


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## Ronnem

Once all the natural native environment is gone, then introduce as many invasive plants, animals, insects and disease as humanly possible. NOPE. Nothing there either. Must be a combo of turkeys and west nile and a sprinkle of "down cycle" on the grouse population curve.


Ron


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## Mark4486

I wish I had more years of experience to confirm or deny... but doesn’t Wisconsin and Minnesota manage a lot of acreage for grouse... are they having similar problems?


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## Bobby

wirehair said:


> The older I get the more birds there used to be.


This is so true for so many things.

I found nice size broods early in the training season, not so many birds later. The cover was thicker than I have ever witnessed in the last 25 years, tallest ferns, thickest undergrowth, the young aspen just shot up. Berries everywhere, food everywhere, all types of food. Never seen such a good year for thornapple.
Now the thornapple is eaten, the heavy cover is down, they are in their late season cover and feeding areas. I am now finding birds in all the usual November places. Fritz had a good day last week, I had 3 good days. I expect to have many more, most all of the weekend guys are gone and the deer hunters don't hunt birds and I have my covers to myself.
There are certainly geographical areas that are better than others. It is still bad by our home but there are places not too far from us that are "normal." Many on this thread have mentioned places they go and had terrible numbers. Those same areas (and I won't mention them) were hit by many of my grouse trial buddies and they had very good numbers. I don't know what that tells me, but I don't think it's all doom and gloom. In my area we had a very wet nesting season and we had 10.5 inches of rain in October. It is wet this fall where it never was in the past. This will move birds to other areas and I prolly just didn't go to the "new" area. Old habits and all that.


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## Lucky Dog

Mark4486 said:


> I wish I had more years of experience to confirm or deny... but doesn’t Wisconsin and Minnesota manage a lot of acreage for grouse... are they having similar problems?


Do you mean cold wet summers? Yes.


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## ab5228

For some reason, the more I read this thread, the more optimistic I am for the future of Ruffed Grouse in this state.


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## Mark4486

No i meant large foresting operations that are supposed to be for grouse management. And if they are having problems with their “numbers” this year or not and if they are having better luck in old hard wood forests. I am talking about my post on Wisconsin and Minnesota.


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## birdhntr

Mark4486 said:


> I would have to agree... my private property that I hunt is all hard woods mixed with some pines 90/10... and we always get birds there. But we seem to do good late in the evening.


Food in the morning,then back to cover,then back to food in the evening.What you are seeing makes perfect sense to me.They need to eat heavy to stay warm through the night.


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## Lucky Dog

Mark4486 said:


> No i meant large foresting operations that are supposed to be for grouse management. And if they are having problems with their “numbers” this year or not and if they are having better luck in old hard wood forests. I am talking about my post on Wisconsin and Minnesota.


Wi and Mn both generally have better grouse hunting than Michigan. They both, in my opinion have better forest management than Michigan. This year they are both having the same low bird numbers that we are and they both suffered very wet cold spring and summer seasons.


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## BassFisher91

Lucky Dog said:


> Wi and Mn both generally have better grouse hunting than Michigan. They both, in my opinion have better forest management than Michigan. This year they are both having the same low bird numbers that we are and they both suffered very wet cold spring and summer seasons.


I second this. By the sounds of it they are experiencing less bird encounters this year as well. This is only based off of a couple of guys I follow on social media, but every one of them is a die hard grouse hunter.


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## Gnoyes

I've grouse hunted casually since childhood (not in MI), and have only been hunting birds avidly the past couple seasons since getting my first dog. I absolutely understand the cause for concern about the future of grouse in general, but I can't believe a bird hunter in Northern MI would have anything to complain about. To my untrained eye there is a lot of great habitat- my list of scouted covers always stays longer than those I've hunted, my dog and I get out several times a week and put up good numbers of birds when I'm smart enough to hit the right cover for the conditions. I have yet to run into another bird hunter over the past two seasons, and I think I hunt in a popular county. If there is seriously a better place to be a grouse hunter today, I'd love to hear about it!

Regarding criticism of the DNR- we are blessed with the largest state forest system in the country. I know several people who work for this agency who do everything in their power to foster good wildlife habitat within budgetary an environmental constraints. I've never heard anything to the contrary from someone who is familiar with the DNRs forest managment efforts. 

Please educate yourself before pointing the finger. The jack pine plantations (which are federally mandated) could be managed better for other species (mainly threatened prairie species) but no way could you turn those barrens into grouse habitat. It's all about the soil. 

I am thrilled to see so many people concerned for the future of grouse in this state. Sorry for the rant.


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## Gamekeeper

Don't be sorry.
We are Stewards of the land, and it's important to show our concerns when something doesn't feel right.


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## setterpoint

last year for me was a great year as for grouse lots of young birds ever where we hunted this year the numbers were no where close as last year we still found birds but seems we got a lot of adult birds not to many young i think the rain we had in may must have had an impact...i heard this so dont know how true it is but west nile has been hear for a few years if that is true it had no impact on last years birds so i think it was not a good nesting year due to the weather


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## Steelheadfred

Lucky Dog said:


> Wi and Mn both generally have better grouse hunting than Michigan. They both, in my opinion have better forest management than Michigan. This year they are both having the same low bird numbers that we are and they both suffered very wet cold spring and summer seasons.


Both have far more aspen dominated landscape than Michigan.


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## NbyNW

For what it's worth here are my numbers so far:

75.26 miles walked

74 grouse flushed

An even 200 woodcock flushed

I do not count reflushes, and ideally I would be over 100 miles now, but the early heat held us back. There are easy ways to skew numbers, there are a few covers I hunt that get loaded with grouse when the food they are after is ripe, I could hunt this cover and drastically skew the grouse numbers higher. If you remove four half hour hunts from my data I lose half the grouse I've flushed. Tough year for grouse, but great for woodcock!


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## Double Gun

Steelheadfred said:


> Both have far more aspen dominated landscape than Michigan.


There is a fine line with the non traditional cover. Much more fun to shoot birds in but....


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## 2ESRGR8

Lucky Dog said:


> Unless we are cutting the wrong stuff. Grouse cannot live on young aspen alone.


The Grayling plant will cut a lot of pine I hear. The next 20 years of grouse hunting in Michigan is going to be epic.


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## Lucky Dog

2ESRGR8 said:


> The Grayling plant will cut a lot of pine I hear. The next 20 years of grouse hunting in Michigan is going to be epic.


Where will the pine be harvested from? Private or Public land? I can't imagine the Feds letting the warbler pine be harvested.


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## Trophy Specialist

My U.P. grouse season is drawing to a close. I hope to get out a couple more times before the deer season starts though. I only got a couple young grouse all season. The vast majority of my flushes were adult birds with a flush rate less than half of last year. My conclusion is that adult grouse numbers were about the same as last year, but there were just very few young pats flying around compared to last year so the hatch was poor for sure, but there also may be another factor at work too. Coyotes took a big hit last year from distemper in my hunting area and their numbers are way down. I noticed this year that skunks seemed to be everywhere as I ran into them all over the place probably due to a lack of coyotes, which are their main predator. I'm trapping now and I can't keep them out of my traps. I know skunks are very hard on ground nesting birds. Perhaps that has something to do with this sudden dip in young grouse too.


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## augustus0603

My synopsis is very few are having great years. A majority of grouse hunters that have been doing this a long time (including a lot of field trialers, pro and amatuer) are seeing noticeably fewer numbers. I'm blaming it on the bad spring weather more than anything but seeing some of the affected birds with WNV first hand, that also concerns me.


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## BIGSP

Funny you say that about skunks. I saw more skunks in the UP this year than the previous 15 combined, I swear. Skunks are terrible nest raiders but I think for bird numbers to be as low as they are, it is mostly weather related. Keep in mind the bad weather is also a bonus for predators.


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## setterpoint

hears a qustion. do we as grouse hunters need to kill ever aniamal thats legal to kill to help grouse. i dont do that but im just asking are there some that do .dont get me wrong im not judgeing anyone that dose or dont thats your bis.


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## Lucky Dog

setterpoint said:


> hears a qustion. do we as grouse hunters need to kill ever aniamal thats legal to kill to help grouse. i dont do that but im just asking are there some that do .dont get me wrong im not judgeing anyone that dose or dont thats your bis.


No, we as hunters need to encourage those in charge to create more habitat.

And pray for favorable nesting conditions.

And possibly purchase a dictionary.


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## slowpaya

:tsk: :gaga:


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## Mark4486

I kill a lot of animals yearly ranging from skunks to birds and I sit out in the woods during deer season and stare at trees. But everything I kill I do it legally and not to help grouse but because I love to hunt and the dnr says I can. Skunks, raccoons, opossums, and coyote destroy other wild life and plants/crops. They survive and breed in much higher numbers then everything else. So pretty much every time I see one I buy him a shot of lead and do it with a smile. Don’t mean to sound rash but that’s just my opinion. Specially when my dog is involved.


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## upnut

The Ottawa National Forest covers nearly a million acres, the Hiawatha National Forest covers almost nine hundred thousand acres. Both have aspen age class maps available, and logging is a way of life on the U.P. so finding places to hunt shouldn't be a problem. I haven't hunted below the bridge in nearly ten years for just that reason, don't like playing hopscotch with strangers. This year the finicky weather pushed me into new places, and we found birds on nearly every stop. Maybe because I switched from GSP to Brittany...... probably averaging one flush an hour. Introducing a young pup with a certain"joie de vie" to the Big Woods is an adventure in itself, but the birds were there. MY take...the pro grouse dog guys are seeing lower numbers, the grouse shooters are frantic, and the grouse hunters are carrying on.
Scott B.


----------



## Lucky Dog

upnut said:


> The Ottawa National Forest covers nearly a million acres, the Hiawatha National Forest covers almost nine hundred thousand acres. Both have aspen age class maps available, and logging is a way of life on the U.P. so finding places to hunt shouldn't be a problem. I haven't hunted below the bridge in nearly ten years for just that reason, don't like playing hopscotch with strangers. This year the finicky weather pushed me into new places, and we found birds on nearly every stop. Maybe because I switched from GSP to Brittany...... probably averaging one flush an hour. Introducing a young pup with a certain"joie de vie" to the Big Woods is an adventure in itself, but the birds were there. MY take...the pro grouse dog guys are seeing lower numbers, the grouse shooters are frantic, and the grouse hunters are carrying on.
> Scott B.


If you are flushing one grouse per hour, I'm pretty sure you don't know what you are doing. Maybe you should switch back to GSP's.


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## upnut

Lucky Dog said:


> If you are flushing one grouse per hour, I'm pretty sure you don't know what you are doing. Maybe you should switch back to GSP's.


Meh, my flush rate goes WAY up when I'm carrying a map or t.p. but that gets a little awkward....Scott B.


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## Luv2hunteup

I’ve been seeing grouse every time I’m out in my woodlot. I’m sure I’m seeing the same ones daily. The young if the year are getting bigger. Sharptail numbers are definitely down around here.

My opinion on the lower numbers:

Last winter’s monthly freeze thaw.
Wettest summer that I can remember. I’ve dumped 40” of rain from my rain gage in 6 months starting May 1st.
Fox numbers are up.
The biggest factor is the record number of avian predators. You can’t drive a mile without seeing one. It’s time to start controlling their numbers again.


----------



## augustus0603

Luv2hunteup said:


> I’ve been seeing grouse every time I’m out in my woodlot. I’m sure I’m seeing the same ones daily. The young if the year are getting bigger. Sharptail numbers are definitely down around here.
> 
> My opinion on the lower numbers:
> 
> Last winter’s monthly freeze thaw.
> Wettest summer that I can remember. I’ve dumped 40” of rain from my rain gage in 6 months starting May 1st.
> Fox numbers are up.
> The biggest factor is the record number of avian predators. You can’t drive a mile without seeing one. It’s time to start controlling their numbers again.


Went to one of my favorite spots last Sunday and there were 6 immature bald eagles in a tree. The only thing that seemed immature was their colors. They were huge. Last time i hunted a spot close to it where I got into two fairly large september broods. Dogs went on point but not confident. Tried to flush and nothing. Moved them on and they stopped again. I looked up and a huge owl was sitting 5 feet off the ground in a tree. Not sure if he was the culprit but have had very few flushes in that spot this season.


----------



## Bobby

Vince Koczara said:


> Wow, and I thought I was the only one that wasn't finding birds I've been hunting in Atlanta Mi for grouse for over 20 yrs. and have seen a decline in birds the past 5 yrs. but nothing like this year. so bad that I'm looking into hunting the west side of the state next year Brethren, Wellston area
> 
> ..............., One thing I did take note of is *lack of food both down here*


I don't think I've ever seen so much grouse food as I've seen this year. All the rain this spring may be the demise of grouse nests but it was a winner for food supply.

Save the gas traveling to the Brethern area. It is no different than you describe in your area.



My thoughts on Southern MI grouse habitat.
I don't see this as loosing grown over farmland as described, passing thru the early successional phase to bigger timber. We are loosing this land by owners selling 2 to 5 acre plots and folks putting a home where habitat used to be ..............................and, nearly every freekin household getting a cat(s) and letting it roam the countryside. Cats are cold blooded killers. They will spend their days hunting then return home for a bowl of little friskies. I have had cats, I had 13 at one time, I will never have another. They kill and they do it as recreation. These critters have decimated ground nesting critters in the areas of southern MI.


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## Ray Adams

upnut said:


> The Ottawa National Forest covers nearly a million acres, the Hiawatha National Forest covers almost nine hundred thousand acres. Both have aspen age class maps available, and logging is a way of life on the U.P. so finding places to hunt shouldn't be a problem. I haven't hunted below the bridge in nearly ten years for just that reason, don't like playing hopscotch with strangers. This year the finicky weather pushed me into new places, and we found birds on nearly every stop. Maybe because I switched from GSP to Brittany...... probably averaging one flush an hour. Introducing a young pup with a certain"joie de vie" to the Big Woods is an adventure in itself, but the birds were there. MY take...the pro grouse dog guys are seeing lower numbers, the grouse shooters are frantic, and the grouse hunters are carrying on.
> Scott B.


No offense, but one flush per hour is not many in my mind. Everyone has their idea of what a "good" hunt looks like, but purely speaking numbers, I want to see 8 to 10 birds per covert. 

Going back again to the broods, the fact that there are few, if any young birds is very concerning. 

I can appreciate your love of the overall experience and the joy of introducing a new dog to the woods, however. I'm just frustrated with the comparatively low contacts we're seeing this year.

Ray


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## birdhntr

Once I drag myself away from the pheasants I will head up and hunt a few days.I'M curious to see if the coverts that were loaded last year at this time will be good again.


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## augustus0603

birdhntr said:


> Once I drag myself away from the pheasants I will head up and hunt a few days.I'M curious to see if the coverts that were loaded last year at this time will be good again.


Seems like late season is always a different story. Most of the areas I hunt, the birds are brooded up again. I do really well near very young cuts (2-3 yrs old) that pines border. It's not uncommon to see 10+ adult birds brooded up. I remember a few years ago my dog pointed a couple in their snow roosts. After the first one flushed, he pointed another. All you could see was a pinhole in the snow, maybe the size of my pinky finger. Just for s&g, I reached into the snow and sure enough came up with a live grouse.


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## upnut

Ray Adams said:


> No offense, but one flush per hour is not many in my mind. Everyone has their idea of what a "good" hunt looks like, but purely speaking numbers, I want to see 8 to 10 birds per covert.
> 
> Going back again to the broods, the fact that there are few, if any young birds is very concerning.
> 
> I can appreciate your love of the overall experience and the joy of introducing a new dog to the woods, however. I'm just frustrated with the comparatively low contacts we're seeing this year.
> 
> Ray


Ray,looking up the DNR Cooperator Surveys, the average flushes per hour for 2014 was 1.66 and the average for 2015 was 1.58 per hour. So, one flush per hour for a 63 year old duffer with a rambunctious pup is ok by me, and I think you're right, everyone's idea is different. I think the guys who make a living at this, the pros, affirm your concerns about lower numbers, my lame attempt at humor nonwithstanding. Some of the newer grouse hunters are upset when the birds aren't where they are supposed to be, but that's hunting IMO. Being a solo hunter a long way from home, I like to hunt trails not coverts, and have been known to drive the 400 miles just to hunt this one:








That works best for me and the dog, plus makes my carcass easier to find if I keel over. So no offence taken, just a different approach.

Scott B.


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## wirehair

upnut said:


> Ray,looking up the DNR Cooperator Surveys, the average flushes per hour for 2014 was 1.66 and the average for 2015 was 1.58 per hour. So, one flush per hour for a 63 year old duffer with a rambunctious pup is ok by me, and I think you're right, everyone's idea is different. I think the guys who make a living at this, the pros, affirm your concerns about lower numbers, my lame attempt at humor nonwithstanding. Some of the newer grouse hunters are upset when the birds aren't where they are supposed to be, but that's hunting IMO. Being a solo hunter a long way from home, I like to hunt trails not coverts, and have been known to drive the 400 miles just to hunt this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That works best for me and the dog, plus makes my carcass easier to find if I keel over. So no offence taken, just a different approach.
> 
> Scott B.


I know this gate. LOL If I find your carcass I will take care of it on the way out.


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## Ray Adams

upnut said:


> Ray,looking up the DNR Cooperator Surveys, the average flushes per hour for 2014 was 1.66 and the average for 2015 was 1.58 per hour. So, one flush per hour for a 63 year old duffer with a rambunctious pup is ok by me, and I think you're right, everyone's idea is different. I think the guys who make a living at this, the pros, affirm your concerns about lower numbers, my lame attempt at humor nonwithstanding. Some of the newer grouse hunters are upset when the birds aren't where they are supposed to be, but that's hunting IMO. Being a solo hunter a long way from home, I like to hunt trails not coverts, and have been known to drive the 400 miles just to hunt this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That works best for me and the dog, plus makes my carcass easier to find if I keel over. So no offence taken, just a different approach.
> 
> Scott B.


I know what you're saying. I have (or _had_, until this year) a number of spots where I could grab an hour or two's hunt and flush a dozen or more birds. 

Of course, that doesn't account for the birdless hours and miles it took to find those coverts. When you look at it like that, the stats are pretty close.

Ray


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## Mark4486

Ray Adams said:


> I know what you're saying. I have (or _had_, until this year) a number of spots where I could grab an hour or two's hunt and flush a dozen or more birds.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't account for the birdless hours and miles it took to find those coverts. When you look at it like that, the stats are pretty close.
> 
> Ray


This year more then any other I traveled far and wide trying to find those kind of spots.... cost me a few pesos but I have some solid coverts that are staying in my book.


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## Mr. Botek

https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDNR/bulletins/1c9999c


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## BassFisher91

Mr. Botek said:


> https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDNR/bulletins/1c9999c


Just saw this. Not cool. 

http://upnorthlive.com/news/local/dnr-west-nile-virus-confirmed-in-michigan-ruffed-grouse


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## birdhntr

The ever constant battle for life.Only time will tell what this brings in the future.Bummer.Disheartening for sure!


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## Trophy Specialist

I'm suspect that I had West Nile Virus on my property this year. I saw a couple jays that were acting weird one day and they were dead the next.


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## fordman1

Probably but its been around for 15 years so its not nothing new.


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## augustus0603

fordman1 said:


> Probably but its been around for 15 years so its not nothing new.


I've never seen so many birds mysteriously dead. I sincerely doubt it was here in the quantities it was this season.


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## michiganmaniac

FSZ said:


> And I have to get this is in...I can't cut and paste but to the poster who stated he was flushing 5-7 an hour (which is double the state's highest published flushed rate from mega-peak yeras in the late 1950's, 70's and 90's), can you clairify how many hunting hours this is based on and whether or not the property you hunt is a private club or lease?


Sorry just now re reading this thread and saw your comment.
Public land in the central up and nwlp. I hunt both days on the weekends generally and 2-3 days a week after work. If I hunt a cover and don't move a bird in 30 minutes I'm out, no sense wasting my time. The birds are somewhere I just have to figure out their pattern given the day and repeat that throughout my memory bank of spots. So I hop around until I find the spots that are holding birds on any given day. If the birds are in a cover I should be encountering them regularly giving me a fairly high flush rate.

Those statewide averages are based on anyone who fills out the survey, most of which are guys who walk trails/2 tracks or the same old pieces of cover regardless of whether they find birds or not. I mean come on have you ever driven through a gem and seen a car at every hunter walking trail? There is no way they are moving big numbers but yet that's what alot of guys do.


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## fowl

Not sure what you mean. Been chasing grouse for 18+yrs. this is the worst year yet. Shot more grouse last year than the dog even pointed this year. That's bad.


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## Dave Medema

I've tried to stay out of this thread but maybe now its OK to toss some balance into the grim reports. I've hunted public land all season, mostly mid Michigan plus a couple weekends in the Yoop. My flush rates have been fine. I can think of a handful of covers that had me scratching my head but the rest were predictably normal. 

I think the challenge was the heat and because of that the location of birds. The heat also forced some shorter days in terms of time on the ground. In a normal year, we might run dogs 7 hours/day. The heat shortened that down and maybe produced fewer birds/day but the same birds/hour for me. Some said things got back to normal in November which also coincided with "normal" weather conditions. Food was spotty but if I found food, I found birds - lots of birds. 

I don't keep logs so won't throw out numbers. I just know that I enjoyed the fall, enjoyed running a new pup and watching her learn, enjoyed shooting enough birds to fill the pot, enjoyed hanging out with friends, and enjoyed a cold beer at the days end.


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## BIGSP

Dave Medema said:


> I've tried to stay out of this thread but maybe now its OK to toss some balance into the grim reports. I've hunted public land all season, mostly mid Michigan plus a couple weekends in the Yoop. My flush rates have been fine. I can think of a handful of covers that had me scratching my head but the rest were predictably normal.
> 
> I think the challenge was the heat and because of that the location of birds. The heat also forced some shorter days in terms of time on the ground. In a normal year, we might run dogs 7 hours/day. The heat shortened that down and maybe produced fewer birds/day but the same birds/hour for me. Some said things got back to normal in November which also coincided with "normal" weather conditions. Food was spotty but if I found food, I found birds - lots of birds.
> 
> I don't keep logs so won't throw out numbers. I just know that I enjoyed the fall, enjoyed running a new pup and watching her learn, enjoyed shooting enough birds to fill the pot, enjoyed hanging out with friends, and enjoyed a cold beer at the days end.


Dave you're a great grouse hunter with lots of experience and I agree with much of what you said. Now, I can also tell you that many of my other great grouse hunter friends did not have the same experience as you did. I think even you would agree that bird numbers weren't as good as last year? Certainly I had some decent days but most days, even in premium covers I found far less birds than last year.

I had an interesting conversation with a friend yesterday, everyone wants to blame WNV right now or the wet spring. What if the hens just didn't come through winter like they needed too and they just pulled of poor clutches? Couple that with a wet spring and some WNV and boom, bird numbers aren't as good as we'd hoped. Just some more food for thought.


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## TriggerDiscipline

My experience has been the opposite. I've seen more grouse this year, in more unusual habitat, than ever. Seen a ton during deer hunting. Kind of makes me want to hang up the rifle and pick up the SxS. Some of my deer access trails go through young white pine and scrub, seems to be where they've been, at least until now. Not uncommon for me to flush 3-4 birds on the half mile hike to my stand. And that's with no dog! Also seen a ton of birds driving my car around crossing the road. A good number of juveniles.


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## Dave Medema

BIGSP said:


> Dave you're a great grouse hunter with lots of experience and I agree with much of what you said. Now, I can also tell you that many of my other great grouse hunter friends did not have the same experience as you did. I think even you would agree that bird numbers weren't as good as last year? Certainly I had some decent days but most days, even in premium covers I found far less birds than last year.


Flattery will get you nowhere. I'm just an old guy with a young dog walking around the woods. 

FWIW - I do think the wet spring had a big impact simply because some locations were fine and talking to others, some were down. MY spots were generally fine and my numbers were in line with last year and maybe a bit up. I did alter my fall due to others reports. If I talked to someone I trust and they said it was down in their area, I didn't go there. With a young dog, I just needed birds instead of my usual rotation of trips. If area A had birds, I generally stayed over there instead of B without birds. That's all I've got. I don't keep logs so that is a generalization but mostly accurate.


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