# Mud motor question



## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

smoke said:


> I know you've been having issues with your motor. I've given you a couple ideas to try and help you correct your issues on the mud buddy forum.


You must have a different name on mud buddy forum. I got that problem fixed after 2 years when I did following 4 but do not know which one did it.
1. change the jet from 160 to 170
2. change float needle assembly
3. raised the float 2 mm by bending the tab
4. tightened 3 bolts connecting the elbow to inlet manifold. Also, tighten 2 bolts connecting inlet rubber piece to elbow. 

my comments are when engine is running good. My engine with all mods should be about 45 hp. Maybe next year, sell the boat and buy an excel or prodigy boat. Mud buddy and their dealer are useless recommending what boat for what motor. This is the first time I hear about hull design and ribs.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

If I wasn't going to buy a Prodigy again I think I would go with a Gator Tail. Gator trax are nice but they are heavy as hell. Excels are tanks as well. Nice boats but just too damn heavy.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

fsamie1 said:


> You must have a different name on mud buddy forum. I got that problem fixed after 2 years when I did following 4 but do not know which one did it.
> 1. change the jet from 160 to 170
> 2. change float needle assembly
> 3. raised the float 2 mm by bending the tab
> ...


In my opinion the dealer you purchased the motor from SHOULD have told you about performance of these motors on a hull designed for an outboard. But obviously they didn't and that's not right! I assume the boat has flotation foam in it? If so, the foam has been known to get water logged and weight down the boat badly.

I redid an 1860 go devil boat last year and between all of the water logged foam I removed from the boat, I took away 247# of extra weight the guy was carry around. His boat, after I installed a set of after market heads (Stock 35 with dual exhaust and stock carb) and tuned it up, went from 17 mph top speed with the wind, to 25 mph with the same load and gets on step in a 1/4 of the distance. He can run a constant 25 mph with a medium load now. Before it was a struggle to just run the boat to his spots on the bay it would do nothing but plow. Check your foam for a water logged condition. FYI: I am Quackerattacker on the MB forum.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

Also these motors are prop sensitive. If you prop has wear by more than a 1/2" on the dia. you will lose speed and lift severely. Check the dia, and cup condition of your prop. How long have you run your prop for and how worn is it? What prop is on you motor now? I go thru a prop per year on mine if that tells you anything. They can be reworked and depending on who does it, they are even better when they come back from the prop shop. BUT, I haven't found anyone around Michigan who knows how to rework a surface drive prop. I send mine to La. prop in Louisiana and Calen can work magic on them.


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## Wolverine423 (Dec 3, 2013)

Pretty simple really - If your going to buy a mud motor then buy a mud boat. Dealers in mi will sell you anything as most don't know shat about mud boats. Research the boat builders down south as they know how to build mud boats and put together good working combinations,period. Don't waste your monies around Michigan, I've seen so many taking advantage of with BS set ups.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

smoke said:


> Also these motors are prop sensitive. If you prop has wear by more than a 1/2" on the dia. you will lose speed and lift severely. Check the dia, and cup condition of your prop. How long have you run your prop for and how worn is it? What prop is on you motor now? I go thru a prop per year on mine if that tells you anything. They can be reworked and depending on who does it, they are even better when they come back from the prop shop. BUT, I haven't found anyone around Michigan who knows how to rework a surface drive prop. I send mine to La. prop in Louisiana and Calen can work magic on them.


How much does he charge to rework the prop? I know they are $210 new. My prop took a beating on the bay this year. That sand just eats them up. It didn't help that my dumbass crossed the channel at bayport just to the south of them trees. Luckily I through it in neutral quickly but it still hot that under water rock wall.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

smoke said:


> In my opinion the dealer you purchased the motor from SHOULD have told you about performance of these motors on a hull designed for an outboard. But obviously they didn't and that's not right! I assume the boat has flotation foam in it? If so, the foam has been known to get water logged and weight down the boat badly.
> 
> I redid an 1860 go devil boat last year and between all of the water logged foam I removed from the boat, I took away 247# of extra weight the guy was carry around. His boat, after I installed a set of after market heads (Stock 35 with dual exhaust and stock carb) and tuned it up, went from 17 mph top speed with the wind, to 25 mph with the same load and gets on step in a 1/4 of the distance. He can run a constant 25 mph with a medium load now. Before it was a struggle to just run the boat to his spots on the bay it would do nothing but plow. Check your foam for a water logged condition. FYI: I am Quackerattacker on the MB forum.


I think I met your friend up on the bay this year. I know he said he knew you and I'm pretty sure it was a go devil boat. He was hunting a couple hundred yards from me that day that I limited out fairly quickly.


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## lastflight (Aug 16, 2005)

fsamie1 said:


> This is the first time I hear about hull design and ribs.


Then you obviously didn't do ANY of your own research before you bought your boat. There are multiple forums out there devoted to nothing but mud motors/boats. You obviously enjoy posting/reading forums, so do a little research for yourself.

A War Eagle hull is not a good hull for a short shaft MM.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

craigrh13 said:


> I think I met your friend up on the bay this year. I know he said he knew you and I'm pretty sure it was a go devil boat. He was hunting a couple hundred yards from me that day that I limited out fairly quickly.


You did, he mentioned that as well. That's the Go Devil boat I worked on. That thing runs great now with just a set of after market heads and exhaust. Between the foam that was removed and the extra stuff we jettisoned that he carried in the boat its a great rig now. To bad, because he was ready to pop for a new Prodigy. But before he did I said lemme take your rig and do a bit of work to it. He loves it now. That is a big ole boat, I call it the battleship  but it runs mid 20's all day now and the way it pops up on step is great.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

lastflight said:


> Then you obviously didn't do ANY of your own research before you bought your boat. There are multiple forums out there devoted to nothing but mud motors/boats. You obviously enjoy posting/reading forums, so do a little research for yourself.
> 
> A War Eagle hull is not a good hull for a short shaft MM.


You are absolutely right. I did not do any research. I owned 2 other Go Devils, one 9 hp Honda on 1436 boat and a 16 hp Vanguard on 1542 war eagle boat. Still got them, they both plane with 2 people but not meant for speed. I use them in Harsens and short distance shallow areas around Deckers. I bought this rig from a guy from Tennessee, met him half way and paid him 10 grand. I realize later 35 HD sport mud buddy is under powered so put 42 mm card, IM heads, and Q-muffler that should be about 45 hp now. Still not good for 2-3 people running 4400 rpm. Do 21 mph by myself and gear which is ok but expecting to get 25+. Hopefully, I contact you and smoke next years about what is solution for more speed.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

fsamie1 said:


> You are absolutely right. I did not do any research. I owned 2 other Go Devils, one 9 hp Honda on 1436 boat and a 16 hp Vanguard on 1542 war eagle boat. Still got them, they both plane with 2 people but not meant for speed. I use them in Harsens and short distance shallow areas around Deckers. I bought this rig from a guy from Tennessee, met him half way and paid him 10 grand. I realize later 35 HD sport mud buddy is under powered so put 42 mm card, IM heads, and Q-muffler that should be about 45 hp now. Still not good for 2-3 people running 4400 rpm. Do 21 mph by myself and gear which is ok but expecting to get 25+. Hopefully, I contact you and smoke next years about what is solution for more speed.


Your motor is solid. Nothing more you can do. The only solution you have is to sell the boat. That boat just isn't made for these.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

fsamie1 said:


> You are absolutely right. I did not do any research. I owned 2 other Go Devils, one 9 hp Honda on 1436 boat and a 16 hp Vanguard on 1542 war eagle boat. Still got them, they both plane with 2 people but not meant for speed. I use them in Harsens and short distance shallow areas around Deckers. I bought this rig from a guy from Tennessee, met him half way and paid him 10 grand. I realize later 35 HD sport mud buddy is under powered so put 42 mm card, IM heads, and Q-muffler that should be about 45 hp now. Still not good for 2-3 people running 4400 rpm. Do 21 mph by myself and gear which is ok but expecting to get 25+. Hopefully, I contact you and smoke next years about what is solution for more speed.


I'd love to have your boat for a bit to see what the problem is! Measure your prop and let me know what it measures. Does the boat have any major "hooks" in the bottom aka dents? This will slow a boat down a bunch as well.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

How much does that ******* charge to fix a prop?


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

$150.00 lol but he can make it do whatever you want. Hole shot, load carrying or top end speed. And yes, he's def. a *******. But very good at what he does. Baggy is good too. Chad gets props reworked by him.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

smoke said:


> $150.00 lol but he can make it do whatever you want. Hole shot, load carrying or top end speed. And yes, he's def. a *******. But very good at what he does. Baggy is good too. Chad gets props reworked by him.


Do you have any contact info for him?


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

smoke said:


> I'd love to have your boat for a bit to see what the problem is! Measure your prop and let me know what it measures. Does the boat have any major "hooks" in the bottom aka dents? This will slow a boat down a bunch as well.


last time I measured prop, it was right on the money. Have not seen any major dents. Let me know when you want to take a look or ride it.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

craigrh13 said:


> Your motor is solid. Nothing more you can do. The only solution you have is to sell the boat. That boat just isn't made for these.


what is your top speed light load, one person and gear? How much is Prodigy 1854?


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

fsamie1 said:


> what is your top speed light load, one person and gear? How much is Prodigy 1854?


Just me and no gear is 30-32 depending on wind, waves and deep/shallow water. 

I don't know what they go for new now. There's so many options and what not. The sky is the limit. I'm pretty sure a fairly bare 1854 with motor will run maybe 18k? I could be wrong. I bought mine from Chad (The owner of Prodigy) with 14 hours on it. It was his demo boat. They've made a lot of cool upgrades in the last two years. He frequently has boats for sale on his fb page.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

Basic 1854 hulls run $7000.00 +- a few hundred, plus trailer and added accessories. No motor of course. They come up for sale now and again if you keep your eyes open, you can find some pretty good prices if the seller needs to unload it.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

craigrh13 said:


> Just me and no gear is 30-32 depending on wind, waves and deep/shallow water.
> 
> I don't know what they go for new now. There's so many options and what not. The sky is the limit. I'm pretty sure a fairly bare 1854 with motor will run maybe 18k? I could be wrong. I bought mine from Chad (The owner of Prodigy) with 14 hours on it. It was his demo boat. They've made a lot of cool upgrades in the last two years. He frequently has boats for sale on his fb page.


Love to go 30 mph with my mud motor. Also, may be you can take me for a ride next year. You also said you do 30 mph at 4100 rpm. do not how that is possible. Some times I go through open water with 2-3 footers in my rig and like the high sides in my War Eagle


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

smoke said:


> I'd love to have your boat for a bit to see what the problem is! Measure your prop and let me know what it measures. Does the boat have any major "hooks" in the bottom aka dents? This will slow a boat down a bunch as well.


Like you to take a look at the boat sometimes. let me know if you find some time. It is on hoist at Gibraltar.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

picture of my boat in water. does not look right guys. based on prop angle picture from a guy on Mud Buddy forum, belt drive ase has to be out of water????


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

I said I try to run mine at 4100 rpm. I'm not running full throttle hardly ever. 

The last pic, is that how you run yours? If so you need to trim that bitch way down.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

craigrh13 said:


> I said I try to run mine at 4100 rpm. I'm not running full throttle hardly ever.
> 
> The last pic, is that how you run yours? If so you need to trim that bitch way down.


no sir, last picture is trimmed all the way up. Just showing how much of drive unit is in the water. maybe smoke can tell me transom is too high or too short?


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## ma1979 (Oct 18, 2013)

Looks to me like you have to short of a transom for the motor. If you trimmed it down where it is supposed to be your belt would be way under water.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

fsamie1 said:


> no sir, last picture is trimmed all the way up. Just showing how much of drive unit is in the water. maybe smoke can tell me transom is too high or too short?


Measure your transom height on your boat. Let me know what it measures. Short transom motors work best on a 16-17" transom. Long transom motors perform best on a transom height of 20-21".


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

smoke said:


> Measure your transom height on your boat. Let me know what it measures. Short transom motors work best on a 16-17" transom. Long transom motors perform best on a transom height of 20-21".


Also measure your belt box over all length and give me those measurements as well.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

smoke said:


> Also measure your belt box over all length and give me those measurements as well.


21 inches and drive shaft is 27 inches. do I have long or short transom motor?


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

smoke said:


> Also measure your belt box over all length and give me those measurements as well.


do not have access to motor until next weekend. can you tell from this picture and previous picture?


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## Bayport (Aug 29, 2009)

I have an 1854 Excell boat with a Mudd Buddy 4200 Black Death. Three men, 105 black lab, avery blind, 11 gallons fuel and over 50 decoys. 24 to 28 mph all over Wildfowl Bay.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

I can't Tell but, your boat is a tall
Transom at 21". Can't tell
From the pictures for sure but it's looks as though your motor is a tall transom model as well. But won't know for sure until you get
Me the measurements. The length of your outdrive has now bearing on anything at this point.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

Bayport said:


> I have an 1854 Excell boat with a Mudd Buddy 4200 Black Death. Three men, 105 black lab, avery blind, 11 gallons fuel and over 50 decoys. 24 to 28 mph all over Wildfowl Bay.


so far 2 guys with 1854 are running 30 mph with good load and me and tmallad with 1860 are running 20 with light load. Seems like 60 inches versus 54 inches width is making the difference. It is only 11 percent wider but apparently 6 inches that breaking camels back. I bet if I put my motor on any 1854, I will do 30 mph. Can anyone help me with that in spring time?


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

fsamie1 said:


> so far 2 guys with 1854 are running 30 mph with good load and me and tmallad with 1860 are running 20 with light load. Seems like 60 inches versus 54 inches width is making the difference. It is only 11 percent wider but apparently 6 inches that breaking camels back. I bet if I put my motor on any 1854, I will do 30 mph. Can anyone help me with that in spring time?


It's not the width. It's the hull.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

craigrh13 said:


> It's not the width. It's the hull.


just read the post from tmallad: "I have a 1860 f86 excel. I had a 44 sport V and it would not plane with 3 in the boat. Got rid of the motor put a 70 Yamaha on it no more problems." you with 1854 Prodigy and Bayort with 1854 Excel do not have any problems. It must be the width. Can I put my motor on your boat in spring and see if I can do 30 mph?


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Check out the Prodigy page. He makes plenty of wide boats that will get down. That war eagle is simply not made for a mm.


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## lastflight (Aug 16, 2005)

fsamie1 said:


> so far 2 guys with 1854 are running 30 mph with good load and me and tmallad with 1860 are running 20 with light load. Seems like 60 inches versus 54 inches width is making the difference. It is only 11 percent wider but apparently 6 inches that breaking camels back. I bet if I put my motor on any 1854, I will do 30 mph. Can anyone help me with that in spring time?


I just looked up the stats on your boat and War Eagle is claiming that hull has 12 degrees of deadrise. That is what the problem is. Surface drive motors need 0 degrees of deadrise to operate at peak efficiency. You can make any adjustments you want to motor height, prop, etc. You are just putting a Band-aid on the real problem. 

Bottom line: put an outboard on your hull, or put your motor on a mud hull


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

lastflight said:


> I just looked up the stats on your boat and War Eagle is claiming that hull has 12 degrees of deadrise. That is what the problem is. Surface drive motors need 0 degrees of deadrise to operate at peak efficiency. You can make any adjustments you want to motor height, prop, etc. You are just putting a Band-aid on the real problem.
> 
> Bottom line: put an outboard on your hull, or put your motor on a mud hull


Thanks lastflight, first time I heard of deadrise angle. Read about it and what you are saying makes sense. Looked for prodigy and Excel boats deadrise and could not find it but it appears from picture excel deadrise is zero. tmallad must had too much weight in his 1860 excel that did not plane. It is hard to believe 14 degree angle making such a big difference. I guess I got to decide what to do next year. Problem is I hunt shallow water as well as deep water almost 50/50. Thanks again. BTW, where did you find deadrise for 1860 war eagle?


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## lastflight (Aug 16, 2005)

fsamie1 said:


> BTW, where did you find deadrise for 1860 war eagle?


It's listed on their website with the rest of the hull specifications.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

You can get mud hulls with 24" sides. Not sure on the side dim. on your war eagle but is say prob in the 24" range.


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## big zap (Feb 16, 2008)

smoke said:


> You can get mud hulls with 24" sides. Not sure on the side dim. on your war eagle but is say prob in the 24" range.


Yes Chad at prodigy boats is now putting a 1854 elite package together for me now.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

big zap said:


> Yes Chad at prodigy boats is now putting a 1854 elite package together for me now.


How much is it without motor?


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## MI Island Hunter (Apr 21, 2004)

smoke said:


> You can get mud hulls with 24" sides. Not sure on the side dim. on your war eagle but is say prob in the 24" range.


Just a little added information:

I have an 1860 Prodigy V Rake with 24" sides and am running a 37hp GTR.

Speeds with myself, dog and hunting load completly stock - 26.9 mph 4250 rpm 10p three blade

Same load with cam, heads, exhaust and new EFI controller - 30.2 mph 4400 rpm 10p three blade

Same as above with Baggy reworked two blade - 30.4 mph 4375 rpm GTR two blade

Same as above with Baggy reworked three blade - 32.1 mph 4650 rpm on the limiter... 11p three blade

Two blade has the best reverse, but has a weird harmonic around 3600+ rpm ...

Two blade carries a load better, gets on plane with three heavy guys and hunting load pretty quick. The three blades are really smooth, I may try a different Baggy three blade next year, he does great work.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

MI Island Hunter said:


> Just a little added information:
> 
> I have an 1860 Prodigy V Rake with 24" sides and am running a 37hp GTR.
> 
> ...


Yes baggy does some awesome prop work. There are a couple prop places down in La. that do great work with SD props.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

MI Island Hunter said:


> Just a little added information:
> 
> I have an 1860 Prodigy V Rake with 24" sides and am running a 37hp GTR.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a great boat!

I'm thinking I'm going to send my prop down south to have it reworked. That sand on the bay just eats a prop up.


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## big zap (Feb 16, 2008)

fsamie1 said:


> How much is it without motor?


It should be around 18k without motor. Keep in mind the boat is built ala cart and I added a lot of stuff


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

big zap said:


> It should be around 18k without motor. Keep in mind the boat is built ala cart and I added a lot of stuff


It must be decked out pretty good for 18K, but you left something on the table because they've gone for more without motor. Chad and Ashley are good people.


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