# I hate hunting over bait!!!



## bmoffit (Dec 3, 2007)

I always hold out to drop bait until mid to late December to help fill my unused tags but man is it difficult!! I hunt mostly urban areas where the deer are a little skittish to begin with but when there is bait they are on HIGH alert. They get within 50 yards and I get picked off every time. They still come in but they rarely give you a chance to pull off a shot.
How do you guys pull one off killing one over bait ?


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## dinoday (Feb 22, 2004)

If I'm going to try and bait an area, I bait it long before I hunt it,weeks.
They get so used to the bait and nothing wrong with the area, they start walking right in without checking it closely.
I did it in pretty urban areas and was always sucessful.
When you put it out and they aren't used to it, they are suspicious and on high alert.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Don't bait where your stand is. Set up closer to the bedding area.


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## phantom cls (Nov 7, 2008)

our you hunting a treestand? maybe a pop up would hide you better! had 15 doe's come in last nite. some came into the feeder, most were out grazing in my food plots. i thought for sure i was going to see a buck last night, but didn't. i hunt out of a elevated blind and never open the window until they put there head down and start feeding.


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## dewy6068 (Jan 5, 2010)

It's all about hunting pressure. I don't even think about hunting right over bait unless the deer have been patterned and the conditions are right and I have been successful. I use my cameras to tell me when they are coming in. You also need to be very scent cautious as well.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

I've always thought hunting over bait was the easiest.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Are you in a tree with little to no cover? If so, keep in mind that the leaves are gone and with the grey sky, unless you're using ASAT, Predator Grey, Skyline, snow camo of some of the new open/light patterns, you are going to look like a huge dark blob up there. Believe it or not, blaze orange camo can be one of the best late season patterns if treestand hunting, as it looks like grey camo to the deer. Now, if in an urban setting, and if you're trying to keep a low profile with neighbors, blaze orange camo in a tree might not be what you want. But the deer won't notice.

Again, not knowing you're in a tree, but assuming so, look for a tree with background cover, like a big white pine or move lower in the tree to find more break up cover around and behind you.


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## ckosal (May 20, 2013)

I have learned over the years that if you are going to hunt over bait you need to hunt after 3-4 days after dropping it or longer. It is in an interesting balance as young deer will come more quickly and in many cases finish off your bait before you hunt. But, I have found (and there is research out there - like interesting article on QDMA site) that mature bucks will not come in to an area for 3-4 days plus after human contact. Most importantly, I have found that it is VERY difficult to not leave a human scent wave when you drop it. Most guys drive it in on a quad/utv, etc. Some will get lucky and occasionally connect and then tell you how great it is. But most will see no deer for first 24-48 hours or, if they do they will only see does/spikes. 

So, I have made the decision to drop it when I am leaving to change travel patterns but really not hunt over it. So, say Sunday afternoon after my morning hunt I will scatter 4-5 bags of carrots around my stands and then when I come back the next Friday, it is gone, but clearly deer have found it and are moving through it. 

We had one experience this year where we dropped some carrots in a field right behind my cabin that I wasn't expecting to hunt and then my dad called about 30 minutes later and said he was going out. So, he had a big pile in front of him at about 100 yards out that I had dropped during mid-day right before his afternoon hunt. He reported the same thing you put in in the OP. Deer walked near but clearly didn't want to. They circled it trying to wind it and he did have a couple fawns eat some carrots but the mature does stayed 30-40 yards away from it in a confused state. 

There is an interesting new issue around the amount of baiting that is happening. I put a post in mid-gun season that makes me feel baiting is even less effective when my neighbors are dropping hundreds of pounds a week. I had some neighbors do the truck load thing this year. Not sure my little pile is "attracting" deer. I would simply try to use it to get a deer to stop in a shooting lane.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

It's probably less effective when your neighbors bait because there's more bait around and more places for them to eat. Yours is then not the only diner in town.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

bmoffit said:


> I always hold out to drop bait until mid to late December to help fill my unused tags but man is it difficult!! I hunt mostly urban areas where the deer are a little skittish to begin with but when there is bait they are on HIGH alert. They get within 50 yards and I get picked off every time. They still come in but they rarely give you a chance to pull off a shot.
> How do you guys pull one off killing one over bait ?


If they get 50 yards from your bait then bust you then set up your stand where they are busting you or just before it. Still keep your bait where it is now.
I have a stand location that is 900 feet from 2 guys that are baiting. The deer come by me just before dark.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Remember 2 gallons does not = 4-5 bags


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

bmoffit said:


> I always hold out to drop bait until mid to late December to help fill my unused tags but man is it difficult!! I hunt mostly urban areas where the deer are a little skittish to begin with but when there is bait they are on HIGH alert. They get within 50 yards and I get picked off every time. They still come in but they rarely give you a chance to pull off a shot.
> How do you guys pull one off killing one over bait ?


I find deer less skittish in urban areas.


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## flying wasp (Aug 22, 2006)

ckosal said:


> So, say Sunday afternoon after my morning hunt I will scatter 4-5 bags of carrots around my stands


Well, that's really interesting? :coco:


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Rounder said:


> I've always thought hunting over bait was the easiest.


No. Success rates are about the same with bait and without. Some surveys show non-baiters have higher success rates.

The issues with bait is that bait is perhaps the greatest disease spread threat and that bait can make the deer more spooky and nocturnal for everyone, including non-baiters. Baiting can concentrate deer for a prolonged
period of time, in contrast to the normal grazing or browsing practices of deer in the wild. Concentration
leads to close animal-to-animal contact and stress that may facilitate transmission of diseases such as bovine
TB. The strongest hypothesis proposed by scientists involved with the problem is that the maintenance of
bovine TB in Michigan white-tailed deer is directly related to supplemental feeding/baiting and the increased
focal densities these practices create.

Some studies have shown that as the number of hunters at bait sites increased, the daylight activity of the bucks at the sites decreased. That study noted that bucks used the bait stations during only 10 percent of the legal shooting hours. 

Other research shows the use of baited sites seemed to make more nocturnal as the hunts progressed, possibly reflecting increased wariness of deer due to continuous hunting pressure. This may suggest that human disturbance rather than the influence of bait may affect the nocturnal and diurnal behavior of deer.

Bait also screws up otherwise natural travel patterns for everyone but the baiter. If bait is placed on or near established travel routes, many mature deer stop using those routes altogether.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

brushbuster said:


> Remember 2 gallons does not = 4-5 bags


Reports and conversations from LE officers point to the reality that most hunters who bait are not abiding to the 2 gallon rule. The practice of putting out several bags of bait, so there is bait when a hunter returns several days later, is very common. If MDNR wanted to be realistic, they'd make the limit 10 gallons, so half the hunters aren't scofflaws.


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## GADWALL21 (Feb 23, 2008)

brushbuster said:


> Remember 2 gallons does not = 4-5 bags


Maybe he uses quart size bags


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## btoeps74 (Oct 8, 2011)

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/bi...ture-bucks-over-bait-sites-not-easy-you-think


Seen this a few years ago and thought it made sense.


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## carnivor (Jan 5, 2009)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> This may suggest that human disturbance rather than the influence of bait may affect the nocturnal and diurnal behavior of deer.


So it's about more people in the woods and not bait. Let's not turn this into something its not. Who cares how others do it. Lets make this simple, killing a big buck is not all about cameras, food plots, bait or any of it! In order to kill a big buck you need to be blessed with a hunting location where there are big bucks......period! I would dare say most MI hunts are not lucky enough to have "The family farm." Yeah folks, however you want to kill them is fine with me.......aim small.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

carnivor said:


> So it's about more people in the woods and not bait. Let's not turn this into something its not. Who cares how others do it. Lets make this simple, killing a big buck is not all about cameras, food plots, bait or any of it! In order to kill a big buck you need to be blessed with a hunting location where there are big bucks......period! I would dare say most MI hunts are not lucky enough to have "The family farm." Yeah folks, however you want to kill them is fine with me.......aim small.


Um, that line is from MDNR research, not me. The point the biologists make isn't that it's more hunters in the woods that makes deer nocturnal, it's the constant activity and scent involved with keeping a bait station replenished that makes the deer spooky.


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## No-Bama (Jan 1, 2013)

I use bait in the off-season to get them in front of my cameras. I continue to keep a small amount of bait throughout the season. The vast majority of deer that I catch on camera using the bait are does and fawns. The bucks that I do see are rarely ever frequenting the bait site in order to feed. They're hanging on the perimeter just checking out the action. 

Once bow season rolls around the bucks almost never come near the bait. 

I have does and fawns that show up reliably at my bait site almost every night about 45 minutes before dark. So I look at the bait as a draw for the does, and under the right circumstances, the doe will draw the bucks in. 

I tend to think that the bucks are just smart enough to realize that there's something not right about a pile of bright orange carrots in the middle of the woods.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

As for do deer know it is man made. Hard saying, because they are an animal and have simple rationing, and because they are animal, I don't know what they are thinking.

I have heard one theory, that bucks get used to they grew up with. Again we don't know what they think, but it make sense.

A deer knows apples come in the summer, it might also now corn comes in the fall.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

CHASINEYES said:


> Hunting over mother natures food sources (mast, fruit etc) is not the same as baiting. Availability of mother natures food sources are in a constant state of change. Same can be said of some farm crops. Example- Deer abandon soy beans just before yellowing starts. Ag foods and mast are spread over large areas. Much easier to give them a top quality food item in a spot close to bedding and set in a location that to put wind in hunters favor, rather than taking what ma nature throws your way.


They turn there nose at baits. I baited with beats this year, towards the end they were not touching them. Neighbor said they were eating all his corn and apples.

I don't consider giving up, cause bad acorn crop some year.

Natural hunting can be lazy. Baiting can be a lot of work contrary to what they say.


What I do find interesting, bear baiting, you want them to get used to your scent. Leave piece of clothing behind. Predator / prey differences.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

mbrewer said:


> It's not a gotcha question, I'm just asking for your opinion, do you think deer know that people bring the food?


No. They don't have the ability to rationalize why the food is there. 

Getting the food out there is where the issue lies.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

While we don't know what goes on in their minds, I lean this way. I do get the idea that they may be leary of a crop just showing up one day. But its food.

Other thing is, they are an animal of prey, which typically breed good and are dumb. Though people say pigs make good pets. Not the 300lb hams though


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## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

Rounder said:


> They turn there nose at baits. I baited with beats this year, towards the end they were not touching them. Neighbor said they were eating all his corn and apples.
> 
> I don't consider giving up, cause bad acorn crop some year.
> 
> ...


I don't use bait, however, I hunted over bait for a number of years. I'm well acquainted with the do's and don'ts of using bait. Placing bait where you want the deer to be, can be much easier than hunting a crop field that is 1/4 mile wide X 1/2 mile long and adjacent to a 1/4 mile or more of bedding. Concerning older deer, Just like the very best farm crawling with deer, hunters and even neighboring hunters burn their bait out before they even hunt over it. Its not the bait they fear. The large ag field may give hunters the appearance that it is better hunting due to a much larger area that may take them longer to burn out, but most hunters will eventually burn it out.

Give me a working farm that has 2.5 or 3.5s making regular appearances, then leave me alone (#1 factor), more than likely, I will kill one of those bucks on the evening of my choosing using bait. The day I decide to hunt will be based on weather and how long I've been feeding them. I wouldn't need anything more than shelled corn. A few apples or even some carrots mixed in wouldn't hurt. Without the bait, I may burn the farm out before getting one within bow range. I'm speaking from an archery season standpoint.


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## Smokin-the-eyes (Jan 4, 2014)

What if you put carrots under a apple tree will the deer think its a carrot tree?
I have a camera spot on a apple tree that i will supplement with apples outta my back yard they dont seem to mind


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

CHASINEYES said:


> Give me a working farm t.


Some of us are hunting in the woods. If I was hunting farmland, I would use less or no bait.

This year, I had what I thought was a nice 8 pointer on camera, 2 days after baiting, during the day. The camera was getting flaky and missing lots of activity, so maybe sooner. This was week before season. I place a lot of weight on the deer getting spooked by all the people. I don't know if they care about shooting though. I have wathed does not even flinch at noise in the distance.

I write, I thought it was good. Coming to this site I have learned I need him carbon dated before I shoot.


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## fishx65 (Aug 24, 2005)

Bait piles would work great if you could somehow prevent mature deer from getting down wind to scent check them for baiters. Deer don't always blow when they pick up human scent and many baiters get busted without ever even knowing it. Baiting is a really hard habit to kick but it will save ya some money, make ya get more exercise and probably net ya more venison and horns.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Smokin-the-eyes said:


> What if you put carrots under a apple tree will the deer think its a carrot tree?
> I have a camera spot on a apple tree that i will supplement with apples outta my back yard they dont seem to mind


If you put apples under a pine tree the deer will think they are pineapple trees.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

fishx65 said:


> Bait piles would work great if you could somehow prevent mature deer from getting down wind to scent check them for baiters. Deer don't always blow when they pick up human scent and many baiters get busted without ever even knowing it. Baiting is a really hard habit to kick but it will save ya some money, make ya get more exercise and probably net ya more venison and horns.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

How long does the human scent bother deer? Hours, a day or 2, I suspect.

I have seen big bucks in town. I have seen does walk behind my truck, when I am taking a leak, and I got bucks on the camera at the bait that has been there for weeks, during the day.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Bucks chase does.


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## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

Rounder said:


> How long does the human scent bother deer? Hours, a day or 2, I suspect.
> 
> I have seen big bucks in town. I have seen does walk behind my truck, when I am taking a leak, and I got bucks on the camera at the bait that has been there for weeks, during the day.


I've seen deer on evening sits go apeshit over human scent left at 9 in the morning. Reaction will be dependant on what they're used to and where. Older deer have much less tolerance. Many will simply avoid areas for weeks at the first signs of intrusion. Keep laying scent down and you might as well hang it up on older bucks, the area is toast.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

bmoffit said:


> I always hold out to drop bait until mid to late December to help fill my unused tags but man is it difficult!! I hunt mostly urban areas where the deer are a little skittish to begin with but when there is bait they are on HIGH alert. They get within 50 yards and I get picked off every time. They still come in but they rarely give you a chance to pull off a shot.
> *How do you guys pull one off killing one over bait *?


Bottom line - taking a deer over bait requires a bit more restraint and patience. Deer will approach bait cautiously, many times because they weren't bedded far away and heard you get to your stand. If you move, or make any sound when they are checking out the area you WILL get picked off. If you stay completely still, avoid direct eye contact, and let the get to the bait before even picking up your bow.... deer will generally let down their guard once they start eating the bait. One relaxed mature doe in your bait will result in other deer moving in with decreased hesitancy. You have to know when and when NOT to make your move. 
I have not been able to bait for a long time in the NeLP, but never had any trouble killing nice bucks or doe when using bait.
<----<<<


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## btoeps74 (Oct 8, 2011)

During early archery in years past, I'd always bait at the same time of day every other day. And within 10 minutes after as confirmed by trail cam deer would always come right in as if on cue. It was a easily accessible location where I could drive right up close. I've even then had my girlfriend at the time come with to bait and leave me there to hunt. No sooner did she leave with my truck and I'm still pulling up my bow and settling into my stand and deer were coming in. They were conditioned. My dual exaust was like a dinner bell. I've arrowed several nice bucks that way. 

There wasn't many people bow hunting near me then and not so much pressure.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

I just heard an old trick is to walk out with more then one person. You stay behind. Deer can't count.

Even if they notice, chasing women, has been the ruin of many a man.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

I realize these are not trophy deer, but I'll shoot them. 100 yards from the road and less then that from camp.
Daytime was a Tuesday night time Friday. I probably baited previous Sunday. Sometimes I got up during week,but not usually.

9 this year different blind, Tuesday, 9 am, before opener of gun, would have baited Sunday.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

One year, day 7 or 8 of hunting. Geting little burnt out, said I was going to leave at 9:30, had to crap, left about 9:15. 6 came out 10 minutes later. Another year at the blind by camp I threw out stale bread and dorritoes in the afternoon, and 5 came out 15 minutes before dark, with me 25 yards away. I realize big bucks are more cautious then these. Not sure the age, but they were not small. The 5 had weird rack.


I see so much talk about aging deer. Surprises me no one debates if weird racks should be shot, or big spikes.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Rounder said:


> I see so much talk about aging deer. Surprises me no one debates if weird racks should be shot, or big spikes.



It's been beat to death on here. To sum it up, weird racks are usually due to injury, they may or may not grow normal next year. There's no way to control genetics of a free range deer heard. Spikes are just young deer (95% of them are 1.5 year olds) no matter what our grandpa's used to say!


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> It's been beat to death on here. To sum it up, weird racks are usually due to injury, they may or may not grow normal next year. There's no way to control genetics of a free range deer heard. Spikes are just young deer (95% of them are 1.5 year olds) no matter what our grandpa's used to say!


YES...BUT.....Do you want to save all of your 1.5 y/o spikes and shoot all of your 4pt-6pt&8pt..1.5 year olds?.................THE TRUTH is DEER GENES EXIST.........it is the "free range" hunter that does not let the truth come out..............and albeit hard to train hunters on correct deer to shoot..............


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Bait piles are not usually comforting to deer, regardless of configuration.


I was referring to difference between a pile and 2 gallons of corn spread over say 1000-2000 sqft.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

sureshot006 said:


> I was referring to difference between a pile and 2 gallons of corn spread over say 1000-2000 sqft.


For most, the whole point of the bait pile is to bring the targeted animal to a specific X spot for a pre-ranged shot.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

It is kinda funny that if someone tells us something and we believe it to be true that it remains true even if it ain't. 
I read about the eye contact thing years ago and have always avoided looking a deer in the eye because of it.
I still spit on a worm on a hook because my dad told me when i was a kid that I would catch a fish lol


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## andyotto (Sep 11, 2003)

brushbuster said:


> It is kinda funny that if someone tells us something and we believe it to be true that it remains true even if it ain't.
> I read about the eye contact thing years ago and have always avoided looking a deer in the eye because of it.
> I still spit on a worm on a hook because my dad told me when i was a kid that I would catch a fish lol


Your dad told you wrong. Your supposed to warm it in your mouth before putting it on your hook.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

andyotto said:


> Your dad told you wrong. Your supposed to warm it in your mouth before putting it on your hook.


Naw, that only works for mousies


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> For most, the whole point of the bait pile is to bring the targeted animal to a specific X spot for a pre-ranged shot.


Yeah, I guess... A couple minutes with a range finder can tell you distances over a wide range of possible shots so you don't have to wait for the deer to step on the X. Although a pile is a lot quicker and easier. Again to each their own.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

sureshot006 said:


> I've never really understood bait "piles". Do people really just dump it in a literal pile?
> 
> Why not spread it out some? Keeps them around longer and is probably a slight bit more natural than a "pile"


You are genius, and will revolutionize bait hunting. Everyone will do it.

The word pile is just a term. Bait - around or bait spread don't have the same ring.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

sureshot006 said:


> Yeah, I guess... A couple minutes with a range finder can tell you distances over a wide range of possible shots so you don't have to wait for the deer to step on the X. Although a pile is a lot quicker and easier. Again to each their own.


Did you know not everyone has a range finder? There were times when Cabelas didn't even have them.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

mbrewer said:


> Nice summation of how our brain would process their information. As good and probably better than most theories but still a long, long way from definitive.
> 
> We can dissect an animal's eye and brain and make conclusions based on our own understanding but we cannot conclude with any certainty how their brain will process the light to electric signals received from the eye.





mbrewer said:


> Nice summation of how our brain would process their information. As good and probably better than most theories but still a long, long way from definitive.
> 
> We can dissect an animal's eye and brain and make conclusions based on our own understanding but we cannot conclude with any certainty how their brain will process the light to electric signals received from the eye.


The eye is a machine much like a camera that focuses light onto the surface of the retina. If the original image lacks something, you cannot create that something after the fact. If the eye displays a blurry image on the retina, the signals transmitted to the brain are of that blurry image, not something sharper.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

sureshot006 said:


> A round bait pile forces them to be broadside?
> 
> And you could scatter bait over an area within your shooting distance as well.
> 
> Everyone has their way of doing things I guess.


They do, but they are breaking the law if they do not scatter the bait evenly over a 100 square foot area.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

bioactive said:


> The eye is a machine much like a camera that focuses light onto the surface of the retina. If the original image lacks something, you cannot create that something after the fact. If the eye displays a blurry image on the retina, the signals transmitted to the brain are of that blurry image, not something sharper.


I'm not trying to counter your argument of what is known with what isn't. But, there are a couple of big ifs' in your statement. 

My only point was, we don't know how efficient an animal's brain is at processing the electrical image. Science has barely scratched the surface when it comes to understanding brain function. 

I don't think it is a stretch to assume all brains are capable of filling in the blanks to one degree or another. To debate the degree is beyond my capability and would serve no purpose. If you want me to concede that you know more about the unknown than I do, consider it done.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

bioactive said:


> They do, but they are breaking the law if they do not scatter the bait evenly over a 100 square foot area.


Nobody but nobody follows those rules.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

brushbuster said:


> Nobody but nobody follows those rules.


I think firearm hunters are more likely to comply based on the efficiency of the weapon. I base this on personal experience gained in large part during the time bait was essentially unregulated.

I bait camera sites and have learned that 2 gallons of corn will last a lot longer spread out than condensed. I'd much rather have 2 cameras to cover a large area than 1 a smaller. 

Sometimes, intelligence is a derivative of lazy. :lol:


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Rounder said:


> You are genius, and will revolutionize bait hunting. Everyone will do it.
> 
> The word pile is just a term. Bait - around or bait spread don't have the same ring.


Lol yeah. I know... I should have been a little more direct... I think the bait piles that are true piles or just dumped out of the bag are usually a lazy method.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> when neighboring Mecosta county had a TB positive deer. That was when we changed our whole camp philosophy


We had property in Mecosta then, had to have been 15 years ago, and the ban is what changed how we hunt. Prior to that ban we spent a lot of money putting out carrots corn and apples and had limited success. When we heard about the baiting ban we panicked. We talked about selling and moving to a different county, ignoring it and pretending we didnt know if we got caught etc. We decided to hire a local farmer to plant food and we never looked back. That was the start of the addiction of habitat improvement for us. I feel like bait was a crutch we were to dependant on. Once it was yanked away we stumbled a bit but came out much better.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong but the human eye reflects more light than a deer's eye, hence the reason they see better in low light conditions than we do. I've also read that a deers eye is much more sensitive to ultra-violet light. So, to me it seems reasonable that they can pick up the light reflected off our eyes. A lens doesn't need to be in perfect focus to pick up the presence of light, it's either there or it's not. 

I've personally saw deer act weird at the exact moment I stared them in the eye. Always at close range. Every animal and every situation is different, so obviously it's not a 100% sure thing. A hunter's eye in a dark blind would probably reflect less light than a hunter in a tree with the moon shining down on him. Cloudy days vs sunny days ect.... But if dogs, cats, gorillas, humans and a bunch of other animals show a reaction when you look them in the eye, I see no reason why you couldn't expect some type of reaction from a deer.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

Any body that has had a reining horse or a border collie knows "The Eye" is a powerful thing.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Bait is nothing more than a tool to help someone shoot a deer. I personally think baiting helped the bow hunting boom in Michigan. It probably was the single best tool that helped a bow hunter get his or her first kill. many mature bucks get killed over bait every year. In fact most trophy bucks on Texas and Saskatchewan are probably killed using bait. The problem in Michigan is that mist people think that all they have to do is throw out bait, but you don't hunt a mature buck over bait the same way you hunt 1.5 yr olds or does over bait. Also many people on here want to bash baiting are usually the ones who want it banned because after spending time and money on habitat improvements, they don't want a state land hunter or neighbor putting out a bait pile and pulling deer off their land. Like it's brought up on here before. A sugar beet out of a bag is going to spread the same amount of disease as the turnip or beet that is dug up out of a food plot and chewed on by multiple deer. 
When you bait think about what you need to do to put a deer into a pattern. If you use a feeder have it throw out in the morning and early afternoon. It doesn't make sense to have it throw out 1/2 hour before dark. You'll only make them nocturnal. Let the deer get use to food only being there during daylight hours. You will train the deer to come into the bait during daylight


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## btoeps74 (Oct 8, 2011)

poz said:


> Bait is nothing more than a tool to help someone shoot a deer. I personally think baiting helped the bow hunting boom in Michigan. It probably was the single best tool that helped a bow hunter get his or her first kill. many mature bucks get killed over bait every year. In fact most trophy bucks on Texas and Saskatchewan are probably killed using bait. The problem in Michigan is that mist people think that all they have to do is throw out bait, but you don't hunt a mature buck over bait the same way you hunt 1.5 yr olds or does over bait. Also many people on here want to bash baiting are usually the ones who want it banned because after spending time and money on habitat improvements, they don't want a state land hunter or neighbor putting out a bait pile and pulling deer off their land. Like it's brought up on here before. A sugar beet out of a bag is going to spread the same amount of disease as the turnip or beet that is dug up out of a food plot and chewed on by multiple deer.
> When you bait think about what you need to do to put a deer into a pattern. If you use a feeder have it throw out in the morning and early afternoon. It doesn't make sense to have it throw out 1/2 hour before dark. You'll only make them nocturnal. Let the deer get use to food only being there during daylight hours. You will train the deer to come into the bait during daylight


Perfectly written, but I'd only change one part perhaps. Instead of having a feeder go off twice a day, I'd only have it set to once in the morning before daybreak. My reasoning for that is I'd like to have the corn mostly gone by the end of hunting hours making bucks less likely to become nocturnal. 

The bigger reason is I'd hate to have a roaming buck that's not familiar with the feeder spook with the noise a feeder can make. I'd think a buck not familiar with a feeder not even near it would likely leave pretty quick even if just scent checking 40-50 yards off scent checking.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but the human eye reflects more light than a deer's eye, hence the reason they see better in low light conditions than we do. I've also read that a deers eye is much more sensitive to ultra-violet light. So, to me it seems reasonable that they can pick up the light reflected off our eyes. A lens doesn't need to be in perfect focus to pick up the presence of light, it's either there or it's not.
> 
> I've personally saw deer act weird at the exact moment I stared them in the eye. Always at close range. Every animal and every situation is different, so obviously it's not a 100% sure thing. A hunter's eye in a dark blind would probably reflect less light than a hunter in a tree with the moon shining down on him. Cloudy days vs sunny days ect.... But if dogs, cats, gorillas, humans and a bunch of other animals show a reaction when you look them in the eye, I see no reason why you couldn't expect some type of reaction from a deer.


Deer and some other critters have reflective eyes because they have a membrane that humans don't have, called the _Tapetum Lucidum_. It is a reflective layer behind the retina that helps the deer see better in low light conditions. 

Inversely, humans have a UV filter and deer do not, which allows deer to perceive short wavelength light better than humans. The UV filtering molecules in the human lens actually absorb the UV wavelengths rather than reflecting them, so humans have much lower reflectiveness to UV light than deer do.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Midalake said:


> With all of the years I have in this is what I can share.
> 
> If no one is using bait around you and YOU decide to not use bait all is well.
> 
> If people around you use bait and YOU do not.....YOU will get beat every time.


Not if you are a savvy hunter.
Most people are baiting illegally by putting out more bait than the 2 gallon limit. These large piles of bait create trails and sign. A savvy hunter will follow the trails and sign and set up accordingly. Basically the baiter is creating a free food source, bedding area and transition areas without even realizing it.
Follow the sign.


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## MillDoo (May 28, 2004)

When using bait to draw a deer in is that really hunting or just killing?


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## Firefighter (Feb 14, 2007)

MillDoo said:


> When using bait to draw a deer in is that really hunting or just killing?


It's all killing, and requires the same skillset as that to kill a deer over a foodplot or habitat manipulation.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

poz said:


> An artificial man made food source designed to attract deer is the same whether planted or dispenced from a feeder, or thrown out by hand. If you guys need to believe it's something different than keep living in LA LA land. It's not a cash crop planted for farming. It's planted to attract and hold deer. Pure and simple


"Bait" means a substance composed of grains, minerals, salt, fruits, vegetables, hay or other food materials, which may lure, entice or attract deer as an aid in hunting.

Food plots, naturally occurring foods, standing agricultural crops or food placed as a result of using normal agricultural practices are not considered to be bait or feed.


*DEFINITION *

A food plot is an annual or perennial planting of grain, cover crops, grass, forbs, legumes, or a mixture thereof, to provide food for a variety of wildlife on rural land*. *



*USES OF FOOD PLOTS *

A food plot adds plant diversity, food, and cover to the landscape. It can also be considered where land is planned to provide a winter or early spring food source. Where fall tillage buries the majority of crop residue, food plots are an excellent choice to encourage wildlife survival. Without a reliable food source, even the best winter cover is useless to wildlife.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

If one duck hunts or turkey hunts over thrown bait vs. a natural field, the CO and judge will explain the differences to you, when you plead guilty and pay your fine.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Firefighter said:


> It's all killing, and requires the same skillset as that to kill a deer over a foodplot or habitat manipulation.


I would say any food source.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> If one duck hunts or turkey hunts over thrown bait vs. a natural field, the CO and judge will explain the differences to you, when you plead guilty and pay your fine.


FWS has a definition for waterfowl that may help some understand the differences.
*What Is Baiting?*

You cannot hunt waterfowl by the aid of baiting or on or over any baited area where you know or reasonably should know that the area is or has been baited.

Baiting is the direct or indirect placing, exposing, depositing, distributing, or scattering of salt, grain, or other feed that could lure or attract waterfowl to, on, or over any areas where hunters are attempting to take them.

A baited area is any area on which salt, grain, or other feed has been placed, exposed, deposited, distributed, or scattered, if that salt, grain, or feed could serve as a lure or attraction for waterfowl.

*The 10-Day Rule*

A baited area remains off limits to hunting for 10 days after all salt, grain, or other feed has been completely removed. This rule recognizes that waterfowl will still be attracted to the same area even after the bait is gone.

*Waterfowl Hunting on Agricultural Lands*

Agricultural lands offer prime waterfowl hunting opportunities. You can hunt waterfowl in fields of unharvested standing crops. You can also hunt over standing crops that have been flooded. You can flood fields after crops are normally harvested and use these areas for waterfowl hunting. Hunting waterfowl over a crop that has not been harvested but that has been manipulated (rolled/disced) is considered baiting under current regulations.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> If one duck hunts or turkey hunts over thrown bait vs. a natural field, the CO and judge will explain the differences to you, when you plead guilty and pay your fine.


I do find that strange. Why some animals are prohibited from hunting over bait while others are not. You can kill a turkey in a cut bean or corn field but you can't kill a turkey under a corn feeder. Go figure


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

brushbuster said:


> I do find that strange. Why some animals are prohibited from hunting over bait while others are not. You can kill a turkey in a cut bean or corn field but you can't kill a turkey under a corn feeder. Go figure


The turkey could show up anywhere in the field, out of range. When it comes to bait for turkey, the hunter will place it easily in range. The same with ducks. Ducks can land in many different places of a field, if one isn't a good caller or uses a poor decoy spread. Deer can show up 100 yards away in a food plot. Even crossbows can't be used when deer are on the other end of a field.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

I wonder how many turkey hunters would like to see the rules changed so a hunter could hunt over bait. I mean why not? We do it for deer.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> If one duck hunts or turkey hunts over thrown bait vs. a natural field, the CO and judge will explain the differences to you, when you plead guilty and pay your fine.


And at the same time if I cut a corn field down and geese and ducks start using it within a day or two because there is spilled corn all over the field. are you hunting over bait. Technically no. But in reality you are. It's just how you want to preceive it. I don't know any waterfowl hunters that hunt standing corn or soybeans and put out decoys in those standing fields. Why. Because there is no bait there for the Ducks to come into.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> "Bait" means a substance composed of grains, minerals, salt, fruits, vegetables, hay or other food materials, which may lure, entice or attract deer as an aid in hunting.
> 
> Food plots, naturally occurring foods, standing agricultural crops or food placed as a result of using normal agricultural practices are not considered to be bait or feed.
> 
> ...


yup I see all those food plot seeds in Cabelas and Bass Pro Shops that are advertised for wildlife they're all geared towards deer. do other wildlife benefit from it, of course but you're kidding yourself if you think that the hunters in Michigan are planting food plots for anything else than the white tail deer


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

poz said:


> yup I see all those food plot seeds in Cabelas and Bass Pro Shops that are advertised for wildlife they're all geared towards deer. do other wildlife benefit from it, of course but you're kidding yourself if you think that the hunters in Michigan are planting food plots for anything else than the white tail deer


What about your food plots? What's your personal experience with those?


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## MillDoo (May 28, 2004)

Firefighter said:


> It's all killing, and requires the same skillset as that to kill a deer over a foodplot or habitat manipulation.


Takes very little skill to throw bait out and wait for deer to show up. Finding bedding areas and travel routes and figuring out why and when they are using them to me is hunting. Much harder to do and requires much more effort and time. There is nothing wrong if someone wants to use bait. It's good for people who don't have much time to scout. It just isn't as rewarding.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> What about your food plots? What's your personal experience with those?


my food plots were put there to attract deer, I don't make any excuse for them. if i wasn't hunting deer, there would be no food plots there. I understand that my food plots serve the same purpose as my feeders do. Or that bait piles do. They are all put there to attract deer. And many other wildlife benefit from them. From birds, to rabbit to raccoon, to turkey etc. When I have farmers leave an acre or two of standing crops by my woods for the deer to use, other animals benefit from it. But I also use it to hunt. 
You see ,you guys try to justify your food plots to actual Cash crops. When they are the exact opposite. A good example is back in the 1980's we use to pheasant hunt by Lansing. Many farmers were paid to not plant portions of their land to have better nesting habitat for Pheasants. Well after a couple of years the funding got pulled right during nesting season. Guess what happened, All those farmers plowed that habitat over and planted it. Why? because there is a difference between land being used for wildlife and land being used for a cash crop. You guys have your hunting properties and manage them for better wildlife habitat and then try to justify what you do by comparing them to actual farming businesses. 

Also I can guarantee you that if CWD is found in my area, my food plots will cease to exist. I will not need to have a law passed like you guys do. I understand that these food plots concentrate deer and can spread disease. Just like when they have Early deer seasons in the TB zone. If you remember they started shooting deer in MAY. Why because deer were in the fields in the spring time mixing with cattle. And they didn't want any disease to spread from deer to the Cattle. There was nobody baiting that time of year. The only thing that the DNR was afraid of was deer and cattle eating in the same fields( food plots, crops, etc,) or whatever you guys want to call them because you guys consider them all the same lol.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

MillDoo said:


> Takes very little skill to throw bait out and wait for deer to show up. Finding bedding areas and travel routes and figuring out why and when they are using them to me is hunting. Much harder to do and requires much more effort and time. There is nothing wrong if someone wants to use bait. It's good for people who don't have much time to scout. It just isn't as rewarding.


Guys who successfully kill mature bucks over bait know where the bedding areas are, and the travel routes. This is the misconception many on here have. They think they can just go out and throw bait out and they will see deer and shoot them. Yes you can do that. but many will say they don't see mature bucks. Now it's just as rewarding to some to go scout, find bedding areas and bait, and do all this while still not alerting a mature buck and making him feel comfortable enough to come to the bait during daylight hours.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> What about your food plots? What's your personal experience with those?


Will you go on record and say you will destroy your food plots, If disease hits your area. I did. Or will you just complain about bait needing to be banned.


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## MillDoo (May 28, 2004)

poz said:


> Guys who successfully kill mature bucks over bait know where the bedding areas are, and the travel routes. This is the misconception many on here have. They think they can just go out and throw bait out and they will see deer and shoot them. Yes you can do that. but many will say they don't see mature bucks. Now it's just as rewarding to some to go scout, find bedding areas and bait, and do all this while still not alerting a mature buck and making him feel comfortable enough to come to the bait during daylight hours.


I would agree. I assume your talking about setting up on the travel route and not the bait pile


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

poz said:


> Will you go on record and say you will destroy your food plots, If disease hits your area. I did. Or will you just complain about bait needing to be banned.


You didn't answer the question and you're making the assumption I plant food plots. I don't even own an ATV anymore. Sold it from lack of use. Food plots are grossly overrated for most in Michigan. For most landowners in Michigan, their habitat problem is lack of thick cover, not more open spaces. I suggest chainsaws and planting saplings over food plots.

But even then, if people planted food plots and disease hit, I'd suggest MORE food plots, as to spread out nose to nose contact and spread out possible contact with prions in the soil, as all the deer would congregate into less fields and get more contact that way, if some thought they were helping by stopping food plots. Bait piles and feeder sites are the gorilla in the room for TB and CWD. As are mineral sites, which I would suggest stopping in a disease area because they are like a bait pile in size and scope, along with commercial urine based deer lures.

What plots do you plant? Why? Do you plant to hunt or for Spring forage and turkey hunting?


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

poz said:


> An artificial man made food source designed to attract deer is the same whether planted or dispenced from a feeder, or thrown out by hand. If you guys need to believe it's something different than keep living in LA LA land. It's not a cash crop planted for farming. It's planted to attract and hold deer. Pure and simple


It's actually a whole lot easier to kill deer mature deer on a food plot than a bait pile. Because the deer have had it all summer or fall, depending on when you planted, to feed in and there comfortable.


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## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

johnhunter247 said:


> It's actually a whole lot easier to kill deer mature deer on a food plot than a bait pile. Because the deer have had it all summer or fall, depending on when you planted, to feed in and there comfortable.


Hunted correctly, I agree. But, give an average hunter that same food plot, he will likely burn it very quickly where mature bucks are concerned. Acorns in the right location can be a good place to kill mature bucks as well. Acorns, depending on the tree or number of trees, are an relatively short lived food source, say around 3 weeks of hot time. You can mimic the same thing by using shelled corn. the trick is, sliding in each day without leaving behind a bunch of stank, not stinking up the bait while storing/handling It and not hunting until they are conditioned or comfortable. All about the tactics.

PS. I don't bait and haven't since the 90s except for a guaranteed late archery antlerless kill set. However, I did keep em fed for a few years during gun season when we had neighbors who literally had the " kill em all mindset", but I never hunted them, just observed from long distance. It was good and dark before or even if, they went to the neighbors.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

CHASINEYES said:


> Hunted correctly, I agree. *But, give an average hunter that same food plot, he will likely burn it very quickly* where mature bucks are concerned. Acorns in the right location can be a good place to kill mature bucks as well. Acorns, depending on the tree or number of trees, are an relatively short lived food source, say around 3 weeks of hot time. You can mimic the same thing by using shelled corn. the trick is, sliding in each day without leaving behind a bunch of stank, not stinking up the bait while storing/handling It and not hunting until they are conditioned or comfortable. All about the tactics.
> 
> PS. I don't bait and haven't since the 90s except for a guaranteed late archery antlerless kill set. However, I did keep em fed for a few years during gun season when we had neighbors who literally had the " kill em all mindset", but I never hunted them, just observed from long distance. It was good and dark before or even if, they went to the neighbors.


Exactly. In my opinion, if someone plants food plots, try not to hunt over them. If you do, do it very sparingly. Instead, think of a food plot as a supplement to the property as a whole, like you would bedding area's, water and mast tree's. If you hunt over a food plot, don't do it more than once every 10 days or so, otherwise you'll very quickly burn it out.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

poz said:


> Also I can guarantee you that if CWD is found in my area, my food plots will cease to exist. I will not need to have a law passed like you guys do. I understand that these food plots concentrate deer and can spread disease.


Funny, my food plots cause deer activity to by LESS concentrated across the landscape, not more.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

farmlegend said:


> Funny, my food plots cause deer activity to by LESS concentrated across the landscape, not more.


Exactly. That's why I asked about personal experience from the poster, because the poster comes off as having little personal experience with food plots in Michigan, other than by watching TV shows on big private properties run for TV shows.

If you reduce the amount of grazing acreage, you further congregate grazing animals further. This is true if it's cattle on the range or goats on a mountain. If anything, if CWD shows up in your area, what you should likely do is kill every legal deer possible to reduce density and ban baiting.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

poz said:


> An artificial man made food source designed to attract deer is the same whether planted or dispenced from a feeder, or thrown out by hand. If you guys need to believe it's something different than keep living in LA LA land. It's not a cash crop planted for farming. It's planted to attract and hold deer. Pure and simple


As to your skills as hunter or ethics, if you believe that, it is the same as an apple tree or acorns. Though I think making an effort means something.

As for effectiveness, I would say it is more because it may always have food, depending on size of herd. No scent of man either.

I sure don't think deer are any more scared of the clover planted in the woods then they are of the farmers corn.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Exactly. That's why I asked about personal experience from the poster, because the poster comes off as having little personal experience with food plots in Michigan, other than by watching TV shows on big private properties run for TV shows.
> 
> If you reduce the amount of grazing acreage, you further congregate grazing animals further. This is true if it's cattle on the range or goats on a mountain. If anything, if CWD shows up in your area, what you should likely do is kill every legal deer possible to reduce density and ban baiting.


Deer graze, but they aren't by definition grazing animals. So, where are they and what are they doing when they aren't in a food plot?


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