# QDM Not for Me



## 5-alive (Aug 18, 2003)

I have sat back and read a lot of this QDM. From my past experiences of hunting deer in the great state of Michigan (25 years), bow, gun and muzzle loader. I have never heard anyone complain that they see too many deer. Last year (2002) was the absolute worst year ever for numbers of deer. I hunt in all areas of the state, southern, northern (terrible) and UP. It just seems funny that everybody wants bigger bucks now, yes shooting a big mature buck is icing on the cake, but from my experience with mature bucks they taste like crap. This not only comes from the northern reaches of the state but from farmland areas too. So I would much rather shoot that smaller 1.5 to 2.5 year old buck any day. And yes I have let a big mature buck pass because of this. I am no different than the guy that wants nothing less than a 150-inch buck. I am a meat hunter but still like to shoot bucks. So it would be nice not to have these regulations towards big bucks. Also, in our deer camp in the UP (280 acres), we do not support shooting of does, but our neighbors (360 acres) do. It always seem funny that they are planting and cutting and trying everything mentioned on this board to make their land attractive and better for big bucks. While we do nothing, other than clear shooting lanes. They shoot does (average 7-10 per year), bow and gun seasons; however they never seem to see any bucks. Our land contains the same type of growth; there is no considerable difference other than their food plots and clear-cut regrowth. We on the other hand, all get our bucks (mostly 2.5 yr olds 8 points) with plenty more seen and passed on. We have many conversations with the camp next to ours and can only come up with the fact that our land is a safe haven for the deer. We dont educate the bucks by shooting all the does in front of them, and come rut time the does are on our property, thus attracting the bucks. So you guys who practice this QDM can keep doing it as long as you like but dont push it on the rest of the state. How much winterkill or starvation is there in the southern part of the state? If there is any, no one is telling, so this leads me to believe that the herd is at the correct carrying capacity and thus the QDM is not needed. Also everybody mentions listening to the biologist in this state, but these are the same folks that believe that the DNR does a sufficient job at counting live and harvested deer in the manner that they do it now. I am all for a mandatory deer check, just as with bears. Everyone wants to be like the states that are known for its big bucks, but they forget about one small detail, that being 750,000 gun deer hunters, these other states dont have those type numbers to deal with. Its not about the size of the horns its about seeing deer and having the right to choose which one to harvest. Too many does, not big enough bucks, big deal, hunt somewhere else. I know this isnt true for every part of the state but I have seen it change for the worse with the unlimited doe tags. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

5-alive, Welcome to the site.



> I have sat back and read a lot of this QDM.


You should read more. apparently you are confusing QDM with trophy buck hunting......it isn't. Try: 

http://www.qdma.com/default.asp 




> Last year (2002) was the absolute worst year ever for numbers of deer. I hunt in all areas of the state, southern, northern (terrible) and UP.





> We on the other hand, all get our bucks (mostly 2.5 yr olds 8 points) with plenty more seen and passed on.


Which one is it?......getting your "bucks" every year doesn't sound too terrible to me 

Neal

BTW~ i have too many deer in my area and I am complaining.


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## Kevin (Oct 4, 2000)

5-alive, Welcome to the site.



> _Originally posted by Neal _
> *BTW~ i have too many deer in my area and I am complaining. *


Neal, I would be glad to help you with at least part of that problem  

Or at least try


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## 5-alive (Aug 18, 2003)

Neal,
I would rather see more deer. I have kept a journal for every year that I have hunted, and last year was the worst for days hunted and deer seen. Just because you get a buck doesn't mean that is was a great season. Sounds like you need to ask for some help on the too many deer. I am sure there are people on this site willing to help thin your herd. Or would you rather complain like many land owners do.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> Neal, I would be glad to help you with at least part of that problem


No problem kevin.....I have a muzzleloader you can borrow 



> Or would you rather complain like many land owners do.


I guess I'm not complaining that much, as a matter of fact I find taking action to correct a problem, much more effective than complaining about it.

We have had an all out assault on the doe population in my area for the last 5 years. The over population of deer on our properties was validated by the local DNR biologist who evaluated our property and found that several species of plant life were being consumed by deer. These species were the ones that deer hit as a last resort, when preferred sources are eliminated.

I have also had several friends, some from this site, hunt my property to help level out the population. We are gaining ground as more and more people in our area are learning to manage the deer more effectively.

Neal


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## 5-alive (Aug 18, 2003)

Yes, thank you, it is brilliant advice. Why do you hunt where you hunt? Is it the perfect habitat and deer herd structure, or is it the quality of deer that you want?
Yes I would support 1 buck, any size. Limit the doe permits. A nubbin buck is a buck, you shoot it, tag it with your buck tag.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> Yes I would support 1 buck, any size. Limit the doe permits.


I agree with 1 buck for most, if not all of the state, but limit doe permits statewide? The deer demographics vary throughout the state. That plan might work in your neck of the woods, but not mine. I appreciate the availability of unlimited doe permits, it gives me the tools I need to manage the deer herd. 

If you are asking why I hunt where I do......It's because it's where I grew up hunting, and have developed a relationship with several residents, property owners, farmers, businesses, in the area. It's also only a hour or two to where I hunt, which increases the time in the field. I would rather help change the dynamics of the herd to appropriate #'s and ratios, than move. I don't walk away from problems, I try to fix them.

Neal


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Myself and most of the like-minded people I know also take into consideration the other species. Reducing the number of deer and improving the habitat, should provide most species with a better future.

Unless they too become over-populated  

Neal


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

It sounds to me like your QDM neihbors are doing quite well. Ten does is a lot of great tasting meat. How many bucks did your camp get. I think your drawing conclusions to serve your own agenda.


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## yoda (Jan 26, 2000)

I'm with 5-alive also. Welcome to the site


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

I'm all for quality in anything whether it's a product or a deer herd.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Welcome to the site 5-alive.

I believe QDM:

Should be voluntary until the DNR comes up with a quality deer management plan that can be micro managed.

Works when ever and where ever it's given a chance.

Directly benefits you from your neighbors efforts whether you realize it or not.

Has greatly benefited the deer in and around my UP hunting land.

Has enabled me to take 7 bucks since '96 that were at least 3.5 years old in Chippewa county that both the DNR and farm bureau states is below target number of deer.

Allows me to see deer nearly everyday while deer hunting.

Allows me to invite my friends children to have an opportunty to see and harvest deer into December. 

Is not trophy management.

Just my $0.02 

QDH=Quality Deer Hunting


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## Eastern Yooper (Nov 12, 2000)

Welcome aboard, 5-alive. 

I _never_ post in the QDM forum, although I do a fair-share of reading here & I do subscribe to the principles of it.

One question tho: Where abouts in the UP is your camp?

I have one eyebrow raised with regards to your statement of "2.5 year-old 8 pt bucks." Here in the EUP, *most* (with emphasis on the word '_most_') 2.5 year-old bucks are going to be a forkhorn or six point.

Maybe you're in the banana belt?


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Amen to that Eastern Yooper. 




> Here in the EUP, most (with emphasis on the word 'most') 2.5 year-old bucks are going to be a forkhorn or six point.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> I never post in the QDM forum


 ~Eastern Yooper

Come on, never?


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## 5-alive (Aug 18, 2003)

Our camp is located in Chippewa (western side), but like I have said in my other post, I have hunted this area for 25 years and long before there was any talk of this QDM. The area has actually had no change in deer herd size until this last year. We took 6 bucks (8 hunters) last year, and all were 2.5 year olds, with 7 or 8 points, 10-15 inch spread and body weights from 130-159 lbs dressed. Like I said we keep a detailed journal and try to know the deer herd as best as possible. And yes all areas of the state differ and that is what I am asking that these practices be used in specific areas and not to include the whole state. In the past years, on our property, there have also been many trophies taken, deer over 140", with 1995 being the best year ever (snow). I am a meat hunter and like the fact that if I decide that 1.5 year old is big enough, I can harvest it. Yes small bucks are our future large bucks, but that is not always the goal, to have large bucks. There will always be dominate bucks in areas, and those are not always the largest antlered deer. How many times have you heard when some hunter shoots a big one "Never seen him before", or someone develops there trail photos and said Never seen him during the season. These dominant bucks will continue to be elusive and survive, even in lean years. So there herd structure is better than most think, in my honest opinion and experiences. Size of the land means everything. I would like to see more people keep journals and compare the deer before and after their QDM practices have started. What did you accomplish, more deer, or bigger bucks? Ill bet you ended up with more and smarter deer.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

5-Alive, welcome to Michigan-Sportsman.com. Thank you for posting in a reasoned, educated, and considerate manner. That has not always been the case in this forum.

QDM is a deer management program that has its adherents and of course its non-believers. In our society all sides of an issue have the right to comment, as long as it remains civil and with proper decorum.

As a moderator I appreciate the efforts that all members have made during the past six months to tone down the rhetoric, eliminating the highly inflammatory comments that were all too prevelent in the past.

Thanks guys n' gals!


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Steve _
> *I'm all for quality in anything whether it's a product or a deer herd. *


Except when it comes to beer, then I'll take quantity.


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

in freepops case quantity is good.


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## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

What would happen if your neihbors shot ten bucks instead of ten does. I have a hard time believing they aren't seeing any bucks when you are right next to them and harvesting a fair number of bucks. Maybe you should thank them for passing on bucks therefore enabling you to "get your buck" or I mean fill your freezer.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Here's what it looks like to me, 5alive.

By your neighbors practicing what they practice (doe harvest, restraint in harvest of immature bucks, habitat improvements), they've made your hunting better than it otherwise would be.

By you practicing your brand of hunting (taking 6 bucks a year), you're likely making your neighbors' hunting worse than it otherwise would be.

Sounds like you've got a pretty good deal going. Like you say, QDM is not for you.

Where can I find some neighbors like yours?


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

5-alive

From your account it does sound like your neighbors harvest of older class bucks has gone down. I could see how you could look at what's going on and draw the wrong conclusions about QDM.

A little food for thought:

With your neighbors zeal to improve the habitat on their land, could they be short term negatively impacting their hunting by clear cutting at the wrong time of year? Could they be putting their food plots in and working them too early or late in the day? Are they going out and checking and watching their food plots for activity? Not good practices to kill older aged bucks.

Each of these activites do have a big impact on spooking the local deer herd short term if done at the wrong time. Improving habitat is a long term benefit as you know since your properties were once paper company land and more than likely clear cut 25-35 years back. Mature forests only produce about 100#/acres of quality browse.

Taking does increases hunting pressure and so does 15 hunters/360acres, that's 24 acres per hunter, yours appears to be 35 acres per hunter. Lots of hunting pressure has negative impact. We use muzzleloading season to take the does out of the herd and enjoy buck sighting throughout the season. 

There are lots of links and suggested reading contained in these QDM threads. Your neighbors could be their own worst enemy due to how they implement their program. Please don't assume they are the perfect model of QDM. If you can see if you can read "Grow 'Em Right by Neil & Craig Dougherty. It's a good book and deals with QDM & QDH=Quality Deer Hunting.

I know QDM works where I'm at in the EUP. More sightings, lots of kills, bigger deer than all the properties around me.  My journal also indicates that. My journal could also be giving me biased facts and conclusions. I did not buy this camp until '97, the year I started my QDM program. Which happened to be right after the killer winters of '95-'96 & '96-97. Be careful of how you interpret what appears to be facts, other factors may be involved that you are not taking into account.

It would be easy for me to conclude that because for QDM my deer sightings have gone up 5 times as my journal indicates. I know that's not true just because for the prior winter kills knocked the herd way down. The same could be true of dressed weights. My biggest doe did dress out at 162# with several others over 155#. My goal is to shoot one that has a live weight of 200#. I believe that is something I can do.

Keep an open mind. QDM is still voluntary.

Good Luck and Have Fun.


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## 5-alive (Aug 18, 2003)

If they are not telling the whole truth, then so be it. I cant do anything about that (they must all work for the Mich DNR! lol). They have owned the property for 10 yrs, and have had their plots and cuttings in place for 5 full seasons. But like I have said before we have good relations and get to see the harvest that they have. We have an agreement between the 2 groups that we show our kills, just to keep up with the population. I never said that I wasnt part of the group that likes to shoot bucks; it is not against the law to take small antlered bucks. I am not hung up on killing trophy bucks (4.5 and older). Meat is not he only thing I am after when deer hunting, its the experience and thrill of taking a big game animal. The meat is a bonus. But I get no enjoyment out of shooting a doe. That is why I try to kill a younger age class buck. Hunters in our camp do hunt the bigger bucks, and have had great success with them. No we dont kill 130 every year, but some years we get 2 or 3. I said before that I have passed on an older buck, just because I dont like the taste of a mature buck in rut from the area that I hunt. I know everybody will think yeah right, but I have done this. After 25 years of pretty consistent success, there is no way I would want to change a thing.


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## 5-alive (Aug 18, 2003)

Luv2huntup,
I can agree on most of your points, that is why I am saying lets keep this QDM voluntary, and keep the DNR out of making any more rules, until they can tell me the exact harvest amounts. 

Again I dont have all their info, but just from our conversations they feel they dont have the deer they used to. 

Why are you trying to kill a 200lb doe? I would think that by taking the prime mature breeding does out of the herd would hurt the deer production. We had a doe give birth to triplets every year but one for 5 years. With 2 of those fawns being bucks every year. This doe had a very distinctive coloring on her rear end, so we knew it was her. We did not want this matriarch taken out of heard. Unfortunately she did not show up this spring or summer anywhere.


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## Eastern Yooper (Nov 12, 2000)

Western Chippewa still falls under the category of being in the EUP.

Based on your statement that your land is former paper land, I'm betting you're in the Hulbert area.

Hulbert: Relatively low deer density (7-10 per sq. mile) and little to no agricultural lands. Harsh winters.

Compare this against an area like the Pickford/Rudyard region: High deer density (20-30 per sq. mile) and largely agricultural. Mild to moderate winters.

I, too, have been living & hunting here for 23+ years.... and I'm _amazed_ that you consistently kill 2.5 yr old bucks that are 8 pt or better in *any* area of the EUP. Thats some truly exceptional property you have there.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Just ducky, the name of this forum is:

Quality Deer Management (QDM) 
Deer managed for quality.

It isn`t QDM and alternatives. So when someone comes in here and is against QDM rather than discussing QDM issues, that is why we might seem critical. 

I don`t go in the traditional archery forum and criticize traditional equipment. I don`t go into the fishing forums and criticize how someone fishes. But, hunters come in here and seem intent on being critical of QDM, not discussing it. 

5-alive didn`t come in here with a question about QDM, he started right out being critical of it. Maybe a different approach on his part would have gotten a better response.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

In order to satisfy the advocates of QDM, we may want to move this thread to the Deer Forum.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

I deleted Just Ducky's post in this forum thread as I felt it was over the edge of what is acceptable. 

5-Alive came in and made a statement in a rather calm reasoned manner. He backed it up with his own personal experiences and was in no way, in my mind, immflamatory towards QDM.

This thread is placed here to discuss QDM. It is not reserved for only those who are proponents. As long as the discussion is civil, and until JD's post it has been, I feel the thread should remain open and active.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Bob S.

This is a quote from 5-alive's original post.... "So you guys who practice this QDM can keep doing it as long as you like but dont push it on the rest of the state." I guess you could take that statement negatively or as criticism, but I didn't see it that way. I read it as him saying "to each his own, but don't force me to think like you", and to me, that's a fair statement. He' articulated his position pretty well in numerous posts here, and all I'm saying is allow the guy to have his point of view.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

I agree JD. Well spoken. Thanks for the input.


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