# selective law enforcement



## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

I'm just wondering if anyone here has ever had difficulty with the DNR failing to enforce laws after you've made a complaint. I'm going on three years now with the same complaint. I've kept a record of all conversations with the DNR officer, he's come out and viewed the reason for the complaint. He's taken pictures which are pretty much the same pictures that I've sent him via e-mail and text. He's verbally acknowledged that "this is illegal" and qualifies as hunter harassment. When asked about progress he says he's waiting on his superior to tell him how to proceed. His last reply over a month ago was a little snippy. I've considered turning it over to fox news. I don't have particularly deep pockets so an attorney is probably not within reach at present. I'm not really interested in pushing things right now since we're so close to deer seasons that more intrusion into the area would likely have a detrimental affect on my hunting. Very likely I'll wait til January before I do anything more. I'm pretty sure that they aren't allowed to selectively enforce laws. 
As an add on, I generally have a pretty high opinion of our DNR. Sad to say that my opinion is starting to slide the other way.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I have called on a illegal bear kill on there rap hot line. What a joke, the lady I was talking to actually said" it's just hear say" " do you honestly think we can prove it " smh. I am done calling them. I have called on other things as well. They must not have checked them out either, because the people are still doing the same things over and over.


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

i


stickbow shooter said:


> I have called on a illegal bear kill on there rap hot line. What a joke, the lady I was talking to actually said" it's just hear say" " do you honestly think we can prove it " smh. I am done calling them. I have called on other things as well. They must not have checked them out either, because the people are still doing the same things over and over.


In my case the offending party has driven t-posts about 10 inches apart into a creek in order to prevent antlered deer travel onto my property (there are other offenses as well, but this is the one that I want resolved the fastest). Does and fawns still manage to slip between the posts. Bucks can't make it. The creek has started to fill in because of the posts and at present is only about half as wide as it was 3 years ago.


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## tallbear (May 18, 2005)

Fordguy said:


> i
> 
> 
> In my case the offending party has driven t-posts about 10 inches apart into a creek in order to prevent antlered deer travel onto my property (there are other offenses as well, but this is the one that I want resolved the fastest). Does and fawns still manage to slip between the posts. Bucks can't make it. The creek has started to fill in because of the posts and at present is only about half as wide as it was 3 years ago.


Do you have a report number for your case?

Contact his supervisor and ask why it hasn't been prosecuted.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Seems like the bucks would just walk around these posts. How many has he driven ? I'm a little surprised that some of these posts haven't disappeared or been broken off in the middle of the night.

L & O


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Seems like you could have solved this problem yourself.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Fordguy said:


> i
> 
> 
> In my case the offending party has driven t-posts about 10 inches apart into a creek in order to prevent antlered deer travel onto my property (there are other offenses as well, but this is the one that I want resolved the fastest). Does and fawns still manage to slip between the posts. Bucks can't make it. The creek has started to fill in because of the posts and at present is only about half as wide as it was 3 years ago.


Dude 3 years, Come on you can find a guy to come pull them out, Craigs list free t posts


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## kisherfisher (Apr 6, 2008)

What crime do you have if they are on his property. Would it be any different if he placed a ten foot high fence.around his property ? Is your property lines defined ? Just trying to understand . If he is on your property placing these , he is trespassing at the very least.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Listen to tallbear, his words are good, solid advice. If no case number merely ask the officer who his supervisor is and then call and ask if he/she knows anything about it. Work from there.

Another route would be to contact the DEQ, hunter harassment or not, man-made objects in a waterway, especially those that impede water flow or have the potential to do so, might be of keen interest to them. 

As far as selective law enforcement; it most certainly happens and it happens every day with every enforcement agency the world over and it will continue to happen as long LEOs are human beings. 

How about selective enforcement by the judiciary? That's arguably part of law enforcement too. FM


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

As far as proving it is hunter harassment, that would be almost impossible based on the information you provided.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

kisherfisher said:


> What crime do you have if they are on his property. .........


I wonder too. 
I was joking about removing the posts if on his property. Putting objects in the water seems questionable. Seems like a short section of 8' fence on his side of the creek would accomplish what he wants done and forever brand himself as a stinker of a neighbor.

L & O


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

multiple questions... lol. what crime? firstly, it's illegal to fence below the high water line on a flowing stream or drainage. Secondly, the individual in question already has an 8' tall woven wire fence that fences over the creek at the high water line down nearly a half mile of my property. Third, pulling the t-posts myself or allowing someone else to take them is illegal and I could be prosecuted for that. Fourth, his woven wire fence is not an enclosure so he is required to have openings every quarter mile that are a maximum of 52" for wildlife crossing. These openings are to be free of any visual obstruction. None of his openings meet the maximum height, some are as tall as 6 feet and all of the "openings" are covered with plywood. Not many deer are going to jump through an opening when they cant see the ground on the other side. The deer were using the creek to cross under his fence. I shot a nice 8 point three years ago that was crossing under the creek. A week later he had driven t-posts to eliminate that possibility. Multiple infractions in various areas. To those of you who say that a man has the right to do as he wishes on his own property, for the most part i agree with you. However, when it comes to state game animals, he does not have the right to prevent them from traveling onto someone else's property. That is why he is legally required to have the shorter height fence every 400 yards. Fencing below the high water mark and into a creek bed is illegal for a number of reasons. Just because you have the money to do something does not mean that you have the right to do it.


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

dead short said:


> As far as proving it is hunter harassment, that would be almost impossible based on the information you provided.


The DNR officer said that it was hunter harassment added to the other violations. I'm not arguing against it. Everything this neighbor has done has been to interfere with the lawful harvest of a game animal.


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

L&O- "Stinker" isn't the word that most people use, but in the interest of avoiding vulgarity I'll try it out.


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

Forest Meister said:


> Listen to tallbear, his words are good, solid advice. If no case number merely ask the officer who his supervisor is and then call and ask if he/she knows anything about it. Work from there.
> 
> Another route would be to contact the DEQ, hunter harassment or not, man-made objects in a waterway, especially those that impede water flow or have the potential to do so, might be of keen interest to them.
> 
> ...


I've contacted the DEQ several times. They've been even less responsive than the DNR. What I've been told off the record from various parties it that the individual in question has enough money to take the issue to court and is more than willing to. In short, it will cost them a lot of time and money to accomplish the "little" things that I'm complaining about.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

The fencing law is an entirely different section of law which I'm sure you probably already know. Proving hunter harassment in court is a nightmare.


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## kisherfisher (Apr 6, 2008)

So you are saying that the post are not on your property , correct ? Is the creek any way navigable . I understand your frustration , but just clarifying legalities . He is an A.. hole neighbor, no doubt. But as far as what he does with his property is a far stretch of Hunter harassment. Just like APRs and QDM, you can't instill these management tools upon another, only with agreement like co-ops.Are you also saying that your property has no deer , only the ones that cross from the neighbors ?. Enforcement can be frustrating , good luck.


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

dead short said:


> The fencing law is an entirely different section of law which I'm sure you probably already know. Proving hunter harassment in court is a nightmare.


Yes, i've been aware of the fencing issue for quite some time. I've been told that I can't even view the permit for his fence- which is ridiculous, because if no one is allowed to know what he's permitted to do then he can do pretty much anything he likes. This year I finally got the DNR to send me a copy of the general fencing description that people are required to follow if they are not completely enclosing their property. It's not his permit, but he should still be required to follow these laws (according to the officer). Completely aside- if the man had fenced his property completely and purchased the deer from the state I'd have had no issue with him. I would still detest the fence, but the fence and everything inside it would belong to him. He'd still have to find another way to keep deer from escaping by going under his fence through the creek.


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

kisherfisher said:


> So you are saying that the post are not on your property , correct ? Is the creek any way navigable . I understand your frustration , but just clarifying legalities . He is an A.. hole neighbor, no doubt. But as far as what he does with his property is a far stretch of Hunter harassment. Just like APRs and QDM, you can't instill these management tools upon another, only with agreement like co-ops.Are you also saying that your property has no deer , only the ones that cross from the neighbors ?. Enforcement can be frustrating , good luck.


It's illegal to fence below the high water line for a number of reasons on his property or not (this happens to be on the property line) I'm not just claiming that this is illegal, it's Michigan law. 1. It's obstructing a drainage and the water flow downstream. 2. This stream is a tributary to a trout stream, slowing the water allows silt to build up, warmer water temperatures etc. 3. The stream has already silted in to about half of it's original width. 4. The t-posts trap more debris every year (water quality issue). I can go on and on here.

As far as that being hunter harassment- those are the DNR officers words. I agree with him. It's a deliberate attempt to interfere with the legal take of a state game animal. If I stay on my own property and walk the property lines near where my neighbors are hunting and blare some loud alternative rock in a n effort to scare deer away from the places they're hunting near my property lines- that's hunter harassment- even though I've been on my own property the entire time. Same principle applies here.


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## kisherfisher (Apr 6, 2008)

Sorry for for your consequences, but a stretch in comparisons.If you remove 3 post , you will have a killing funnel.The debris must have accumulated and knocked them out.


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

If its agricultural ground call the drain commission. Also like others have said deq.


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

Fordguy said:


> It's illegal to fence below the high water line for a number of reasons on his property or not (this happens to be on the property line) I'm not just claiming that this is illegal, it's Michigan law. 1. It's obstructing a drainage and the water flow downstream. 2. This stream is a tributary to a trout stream, slowing the water allows silt to build up, warmer water temperatures etc. 3. The stream has already silted in to about half of it's original width. 4. The t-posts trap more debris every year (water quality issue). I can go on and on here.





kisherfisher said:


> Sorry for for your consequences, but a stretch in comparisons.If you remove 3 post , you will have a killing funnel.The debris must have accumulated and knocked them out.


All one has to prove is that there is intent to interfere with the legal take of a game animal. Not a stretch between those two situations at all, as there is no other reason to illegally place t-posts in such a manner. This was agreed upon by the DNR Officer who came out to view and photograph.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

Fordguy said:


> All one has to prove is that there is intent to interfere with the legal take of a game animal. Not a stretch between those two situations at all, as there is no other reason to illegally place t-posts in such a manner. This was agreed upon by the DNR Officer who came out to view and photograph.


Seem much more to this than provided. Why do the deer "live over there" and need to go under a fence to your land to get shot? Is his land better than yours, or is this a travel route to what? Deer and other animals normally go somewhere for something, not sightseeing. How close to this spot do you hunt to know that your 8 point came through that spot? Someone listening to loud music would be tough to get hunter harassment to stick, lots of folks listen to loud music, beating on a garbage can lid, well that may be harassment, as not many folks do that. Good luck, and I guess keep calling.


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

JAA said:


> Our DNR SUCKS!!!!!!! And it Starts at the top And work's it's way right to the BOTTOM:banghead3


Perhaps, but I thinks its mostly at the top, the guys/gals at the bottom just follow rules.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

They don't all suck , I know a few that are very hard working and great at there jobs.


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## JAA (Oct 6, 2004)

stickbow shooter said:


> They don't all suck , I know a few that are very hard working and great at there jobs.


 I know of calls to them on Sturgeon poaching in East China Twp at Legas dock! Witnessed Fish on dock and put in car Gone in 60 sec's! While the rest of their gang still fishes. Ready to do the same thing. and they never have time to investigate Or even look into the matter???? Well know spot as well, I would say that's at the so called the Lower Level ?????????????????????????????? 

Tuesday at 9:59 AM#11

*sureshot006*
  

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For location, the poachers get a good number of sturgeon off the end of Legas dock. So that might be a good place to start.
It's crazy to me that the DNR doesn't catch these people. I've looked through the reports now and then and dont see where many get busted. Seems it would be simple.


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

DEQ issue. 

I'm sure man made structures that could hang up branches and debris and impact the flow of a jurisdictional water way would be of great interest to the DEQ.


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

Fordguy said:


> i
> 
> 
> In my case the offending party has driven t-posts about 10 inches apart into a creek in order to prevent antlered deer travel onto my property (there are other offenses as well, but this is the one that I want resolved the fastest). Does and fawns still manage to slip between the posts. Bucks can't make it. The creek has started to fill in because of the posts and at present is only about half as wide as it was 3 years ago.


A little explosive will do wonders with those posts and that area. Things happen. Perhaps it was fishing poachers from downstream. Does he have cameras? I normally do not recommend illegal procedures but that jerk has removed most reasonable options. If it is entirely on his property then I would just live with it. Also trees drop over fences all of the time.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Just show him a pic of a dead mega buck.
Tell him it tried to cross the creek ,then for some strange reason turned around and came back out on your side.....


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Make an appointment with the COs supervisor and the county prosecutor. More than likely it’s out of the COs hands and it could be out of the supervisors hands. You will never know unless you ask, emails and phone calls don’t cut it.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Fordguy said:


> i
> 
> 
> In my case the offending party has driven t-posts about 10 inches apart into a creek in order to ...............


Wanted to ask, this is a natural creek and not a drainage ditch ?

L & O


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

Liver and Onions said:


> Wanted to ask, this is a natural creek and not a drainage ditch ?
> 
> L & O


this is a continuously flowing stream fed by artesian springs. When I was a kid I used to fish for native brook trout that would hide under the banks. It's not a big stream, in most places on my property it's 6' wide or less.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

What county?


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

feedinggrounds said:


> Seem much more to this than provided. Why do the deer "live over there" and need to go under a fence to your land to get shot? Is his land better than yours, or is this a travel route to what? Deer and other animals normally go somewhere for something, not sightseeing. How close to this spot do you hunt to know that your 8 point came through that spot? Someone listening to loud music would be tough to get hunter harassment to stick, lots of folks listen to loud music, beating on a garbage can lid, well that may be harassment, as not many folks do that. Good luck, and I guess keep calling.


Why do deer travel? That seems like a very obvious question. They travel for any number of reasons- Food, bedding cover, to mate, or simply because they feel like it. I've been planting cover and mast crops for more than a decade. I have a fraction of the land that he does, but my ground is very productive. The neighbor has offered to buy it several times. He was hunting on my property for years without permission. His family members (with guns in hand) tried to run me off of this property when I was a kid and I happened to be riding a horse in our hay field. Our field. Not even close to his property line. So my step-dad (who had a very hard time keeping his cool) had the property surveyed, gave him notification that he had to remove his tree stands from our property ( more than 50 yards in on our land). It wasn't long after that when the fence went up. 8' tall and stretching close to a mile (I'm guestimating here) in length. The fence cuts through what was traditionally a major travel route for deer. When I was a kid in the mid 90's it wasn't uncommon to see 40-50 different deer in a a day. Now when I hunt I see anywhere between 3-6 if I'm lucky ... but it's a good hunt if I see any at all (on my side of the fence) since the EHD outbreak a few years back. Yes, I understand that the deer population was way too high in the mid to late 90's. The neighbor plants fields of crops just for the deer. He can afford to do that. Good for him. That does not make them his deer. That is what he calls them. His deer. Someone asked if I had a stand close to the property line where the creek crosses and is fenced into the water. I do have a stand on my side, he has one on his side too.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Fordguy said:


> Yes, i've been aware of the fencing issue for quite some time. *I've been told that I can't even view the permit for his fence- which is ridiculous, because if no one is allowed to know what he's permitted to do then he can do pretty much anything he likes.* This year I finally got the DNR to send me a copy of the general fencing description that people are required to follow if they are not completely enclosing their property. It's not his permit, but he should still be required to follow these laws (according to the officer). Completely aside- if the man had fenced his property completely and purchased the deer from the state I'd have had no issue with him. I would still detest the fence, but the fence and everything inside it would belong to him. He'd still have to find another way to keep deer from escaping by going under his fence through the creek.


My opinion only but something seemed peculiar early on, and the odor seems to be getting a bit more pungent all the time. That aside, the Freedom of Information Act has been around for decades. Surely everyone has heard of it by now? 

A simple FOIA request for a copy of the permit, or any pertinent public document, *MUST* be honored within five business day. An additional ten can be had if the agency notifies the requester in writing. If a request is denied the requester *MUST* be notified in writing as to why the request cannot be honored. There is an appeal process if denied. How do I know these things? Those above me were FOIAed multiple times in the last dozen or so years when I was a public servant and in public service, just like in private industry, poo flows down hill. 

The requester may be required to pay the cost of locating, copying, and mailing the documents but that is a small price to pay if a person really wants information and an informal request to the powers-that-be is not getting the desired results. The cost is usually a couple bucks/page give or take a bit. 

By Googling "Michigan FOIA" one can easily find out how to make a FOIA request. It is very, very simple, actually. So, from five to fifteen business days from now we will find out all about the permit? FM


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## Fordguy (Dec 18, 2017)

I honestly had no idea that I could use the FOIA for that. I'll be looking it up. Just finished sending the request. So in 5-15 days I should have an answer.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Just approach your neighbor and tell him that since only does and fawns can cross the creek, you'll will start shooting every button buck you see. You may have to shoot one or two and show him, but it will get the point across to him that if he is going to screw with your hunting, you will screw with his. this worked wonders with our neighbors who would steal our stuff hoping we would stop hunting there.


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## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

Add this to the long list of stories of things the DNR doesn’t have time to assist with but they have all the time in the world to send 2 COs to write marijuana tickets on river and double check that your shoes are tied. 

Most COs I meet are great people. I just don’t understand the priority list.


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## SMITTY1233 (Dec 8, 2003)

1. Did you try to speak to your neighbor before involving the law?

Sad this jackwagon is doing what he is doing but maybe even sadder if you didn't try to work this out with him some how.

Deer hunting in this state has went way overboard


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

You may want to file an additional FOIA to see who helped finance the county prosecutors run for office. There could be a name you recognize. It may be entirely possible it’s been out of the DNRs hands the whole time.


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