# Grub Problem?



## radiohead (Apr 11, 2006)

Starting to notice bare patches in my lawn. My dog has his own fenced in area for peeing so its not from him. I have never had grubs before so I am not sure what is causing it but after doing a little research online it looks like these spots are consistent with grubs.
What do you think?


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

Take a spade and lift up some sod. 1 sq.ft would tell you. If you have more than a couple, you got a problem.


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## radiohead (Apr 11, 2006)

If I do have a grub problem what is the remedy?



WALLEYE MIKE said:


> Take a spade and lift up some sod. 1 sq.ft would tell you. If you have more than a couple, you got a problem.


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## jlcrss (May 17, 2006)

radiohead said:


> If I do have a grub problem what is the remedy?


Really expensive lawn treatments.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

OK, grub lesson 101.

You will NOT have a grub issue right now. You could have some 3 year grubs (or aetenius beetles, but I doubt it) but that damage is not grub damage. The VAST majority of grubs which damage lawns are Japanese beetles, European chafers and masked chafers. These insects lay there eggs in mid to late summer (July, Aug.). The eggs hatch and begin feeding immediately. Damage will usually show itself in late September or October. The first thing you will notice in devestating populations is a spongy feeling when walking on the lawn and if you turn your foot the sod will move. Pick up the turf like fresh layed sod and behold the wonder of the larval stage of annual beetles!! 
If they are not dealt with using a potent contact insecticide like Dylox or Aloft then they will continue to feed until forced by freeze to go deep into the soil. I have found grubs at the surface feeding in every month they are in the ground with the exception of January and February. The contact insecticides I aluded to are only marginally successful in killing them. The best way to control grubs is with an application of Imidacloprid (Merit). Liquid apps are about 90% effective but the dry product on fertilizer is 98% effective. Has to do with the fact that sunlight will degrade the liquid applied product, I don't know why.
In the spring when they come back to the surface they will feed voraciously again. They feed until they pupate. They will pupate in early to mid May. (As you can now see, they are in a pupa form right now, so you don't have a grub issue:evil. The adults emerge from the ground in late June to July and begin the process all over.
If you are going to put down a preventative grub control, NOW IS THE TIME TO DO IT!!!! It is cheap insurance. We get our apps done starting in June and complete by July 15th. 
Back to your lawns issues. I can tell you a few things from these photos, (I believe) your lawn was sodded (nearly all K. Bluegrass) and this damage is relatively old. I know this because the surrounding turf grass is moving back into the damaged areas. I see no active disease lessions at this time (but that is difficult without examining the plants closely). 
Without seeing the plants when the disease was active I can't tell you what disease caused this condition. The 90's we had a week or two ago probably started the problem. We've seen an abundance of dollar spot, red thread and brown patch disease over that last few weeks. The conditions are going to worsen now with the humidity increasing.
You may also have patch (neucriotic ring spot) disease in this lawn. That is common on sodded lawns. Apply a disease control immediately and then every 2-3 weeks to try to control this devestating "frog eye" disease. This disease alone is why I would NEVER put sod on a lawn that I had long term plans for. Unless, of course, I were the Toledo Mud Hens and I was going to replace the field every third year.

BTW, I own Perf-A-Lawn of Toledo, Inc. Been in business for 32 years and we assist Jake Tyler in taking care of Fifth Third Field.


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## jlcrss (May 17, 2006)

LoBrass said:


> OK, grub lesson 101.
> 
> You will NOT have a grub issue right now. You could have some 3 year grubs (or aetenius beetles, but I doubt it) but that damage is not grub damage. The VAST majority of grubs which damage lawns are Japanese beetles, European chafers and masked chafers. These insects lay there eggs in mid to late summer (July, Aug.). The eggs hatch and begin feeding immediately. Damage will usually show itself in late September or October. The first thing you will notice in devestating populations is a spongy feeling when walking on the lawn and if you turn your foot the sod will move. Pick up the turf like fresh laid sod and behold the wonder of the larval stage of annual beetles!!
> If they are not dealt with using a potent contact insecticide like Dylox or Aloft then they will continue to feed until forced by freeze to go deep into the soil. I have found grubs at the surface feeding in every month they are in the ground with the exception of January and February. The contact insecticides I aluded to are only marginally successful in killing them. The best way to control grubs is with an application of Imidocloprid (Merit). Liquid apps are about 90% effective but the dry product on fertilizer is 98% effective. Has to do with the fact that sunlight will degrade the liquid applied product, I don't know why.
> ...



Great post thanks for the information. Do you recommend any particular grub control to put down right now?


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

jlcrss said:


> Great post thanks for the information. Do you recommend any particular grub control to put down right now?


Anything with Imidaclopirid, common name "Merit". I simply do not know the "box store" brands as I don't use them. Just be careful when buying product as I talk to dozens of folks annually who are putting down product at the wrong time of the year. 

Imidaclopirid goes down June to early July in Michigan.

We are using a dry fertilizer with 30%XCU and 2% Iron with the Merit coated onto the product. We are putting it down at 4-4.5 lbs./1000 sq.ft. Always read and follow label directions.


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## eyesforever (Mar 8, 2004)

By disease control are you saying a fungicide? What's a good one?
Been haveing a disscusion in the home improvement section about my lawn. Yes, it was sodded 7yrs ago with Bluegrass mix. I have patches where you can replant, grass comes up then a month later dies back off. WTH? Is this Fuserium(sp)?


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

eyesforever said:


> By disease control are you saying a fungicide? What's a good one?
> Been haveing a disscusion in the home improvement section about my lawn. Yes, it was sodded 7yrs ago with Bluegrass mix. I have patches where you can replant, grass comes up then a month later dies back off. WTH? Is this Fuserium(sp)?


Yes, fungicide. Propiconazole is what I've been using on the major diseases but with fusarium, neucrotic ring spot or patch disease (the "frogeye disease") the rate is double the normal fung rates.

As far as your problem, I have no idea what you have. Every site is different and has numerous condition that can cause decline. If you could get a picture up with some detailed and some overall site pictures I could give you my best guess. Frankly, sounds like a shade issue. When shade is an issue the homeowner plants grass and it comes up fine. Then, after the plant has to survive by making its own food and the energy from the seed is gone the plant declines.

Post some pics and I'll try to help.


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## eyesforever (Mar 8, 2004)

LoBrass said:


> Yes, fungicide. Propiconazole is what I've been using on the major diseases but with fusarium, neucrotic ring spot or patch disease (the "frogeye disease") the rate is double the normal fung rates.
> 
> As far as your problem, I have no idea what you have. Every site is different and has numerous condition that can cause decline. If you could get a picture up with some detailed and some overall site pictures I could give you my best guess. Frankly, sounds like a shade issue. When shade is an issue the homeowner plants grass and it comes up fine. Then, after the plant has to survive by making its own food and the energy from the seed is gone the plant declines.
> 
> Post some pics and I'll try to help.


 Sorry, no pics, but looks a lot like the one pictured in this thread. 
Sod, 2" topsoil, sand as far down as ya wantta go. 
Shade issue,,,that's where I don't have a problem.???


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

Sand is an environment that will suck the life out of turf. Sand will never hold moisture. Water will always be necessary on this lawn during hot or dry periods. We have had great moisture (at least where I'm at) but the heat is a killer too. Stress has apparently occured and you are having some disease issues related to that stress. Proper watering on sand should be frequent and short duration. Long watering sessions are futile as the soil doesn't hold the extra moisture.

Fungicides for most lawn diseases are a last resort. We always try to control disease by first creating a good environment (proper soil, grass type and great cultural practices). Then we make sure fertility is not an issue. High phosphorus and high potassium fertilizers applied timely will build the root system and give the plant necessary elements to build a tough drought and disease resistant cell wall. If you have done all these things and are still having a problem then a fungicide is the next step.

On class A turf where perfection is the only option disease control programs are the rule. They are applied as a preventative rather than as a curative. Much of your plan will be based on how you feel about your lawn.

Grubs are soooooo much easier to deal with:lol:.


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## eyesforever (Mar 8, 2004)

LoBrass said:


> Sand is an environment that will suck the life out of turf. Sand will never hold moisture. Water will always be necessary on this lawn during hot or dry periods. We have had great moisture (at least where I'm at) but the heat is a killer too. Stress has apparently occured and you are having some disease issues related to that stress. Proper watering on sand should be frequent and short duration. Long watering sessions are futile as the soil doesn't hold the extra moisture.
> 
> Fungicides for most lawn diseases are a last resort. We always try to control disease by first creating a good environment (proper soil, grass type and great cultural practices). Then we make sure fertility is not an issue. High phosphorus and high potassium fertilizers applied timely will build the root system and give the plant necessary elements to build a tough drought and disease resistant cell wall. If you have done all these things and are still having a problem then a fungicide is the next step.
> 
> ...


 Thinkin' you have it right. Testing shows high on Phosphorus, but low on Potasium. Watering I try to do the old 'rule' of 1" @wk. Maybe a 1/2" twice @wk would be better? 
Never been to nuts about lawn care, and fishin's a lot more fun. Guess I'll have ta change some of my lawn work habits. This was mentioned in the HomeImprovement thread too.

Thanks for your time on this.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

eyesforever said:


> Thinkin' you have it right. Testing shows high on Phosphorus, but low on Potasium. Watering I try to do the old 'rule' of 1" @wk. Maybe a 1/2" twice @wk would be better?
> Never been to nuts about lawn care, and fishin's a lot more fun. Guess I'll have ta change some of my lawn work habits. This was mentioned in the HomeImprovement thread too.
> 
> Thanks for your time on this.


We have neighborhoods of pure sand where they have nearly all sodded lawns. My recommendation is to water daily 15 minutes per zone and go from there. During the hot and dry times of the year, increase time per zone until the lawn stays actively growing. The next step would be to water twice a day. (Hope you have a well:yikes.

I went through one of these neighborhoods 2 weeks ago to do a new estimate. 95% of all the lawns had heat induced dollar spot disease activity and red thread disease. The only lawns that did not have the condition were the most pampered lawns.


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## jlcrss (May 17, 2006)

LoBrass said:


> We have neighborhoods of pure sand where they have nearly all sodded lawns. My recommendation is to water daily 15 minutes per zone and go from there. During the hot and dry times of the year, increase time per zone until the lawn stays actively growing. The next step would be to water twice a day. (Hope you have a well:yikes.
> 
> I went through one of these neighborhoods 2 weeks ago to do a new estimate. 95% of all the lawns had heat induced dollar spot disease activity and red thread disease. The only lawns that did not have the condition were the most pampered lawns.


I know I am kinda of sidetracking this thread but with all of this rain my grass seems a little lethargic. Is it because of lack of sun or is it possible with millions of mushroom I have a fungus at work? Would it be worth it to put a funguscide down?


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## Sling (Aug 2, 2005)

I don't want to hijack ..... but .... would sodded lawns benefit from overseeding since the soil beneath is not that great ?


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

LoBrass said:


> We have neighborhoods of pure sand where they have nearly all sodded lawns. My recommendation is to water daily 15 minutes per zone and go from there. During the hot and dry times of the year, increase time per zone until the lawn stays actively growing. The next step would be to water twice a day. (Hope you have a well:yikes.
> 
> I went through one of these neighborhoods 2 weeks ago to do a new estimate. 95% of all the lawns had heat induced dollar spot disease activity and red thread disease. The only lawns that did not have the condition were the most pampered lawns.


15 minutes with spray heads would be fine but 15 minutes with full circle 3 gal per min. heads is nowhere near enough.

Do not try to water during the day especially if its hot and windy. Too much evaporation. I do all mine between midnight and 6am. A good soaking maybe once a week (1.5 hours per zone) twice a week if hot and dry. Sandy soil probably every other day. Remember that more moisture loss is from the sun (evaporation) than the water running thru the sand to China. Southern facing slope will dry much quicker than an eastern or northern part of the yard. That part might need water more often and more water per session.

It all experimentation. All lawns are unique. Need to fetilize and water based on your needs, not a nieghbors lawn.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

jlcrss said:


> I know I am kinda of sidetracking this thread but with all of this rain my grass seems a little lethargic. Is it because of lack of sun or is it possible with millions of mushroom I have a fungus at work? Would it be worth it to put a funguscide down?


Moisture equals mushrooms. 

Lethargic lawns are probably due to excessive mowing. The mowing of grass plants will always be stressfull. Especially when we have had so much rain and the resulting extra growth that is getting cut off. Additional fert may be in order to get the lost nutrients back into the plant.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

I'll address the other questions later (dentist app.)

BTW, I do not recommend watering exclusively at night. Where does mold (fungus) do best-damp and dark. Just sayin'. Early in the morning, certainly, but dry while dark if possible.

Probably should start a new thread as this grub thread has officially been hijacked.:yikes:


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

LoBrass said:


> BTW, I do not recommend watering exclusively at night. Where does mold (fungus) do best-damp and dark. Just sayin'. Early in the morning, certainly, but dry while dark if possible.


Your grass is wet with dew by midnight (those nites when dew is emminent) so its wet all night any way. 

Once or twice a week at nite is not harmful. I have no problem with fungus or diseases.(of course the type of grass I have is not as susceptible as some other grasses). You most certainly don't want to water in the evening. That just increases the amt. of time the grass is wet. Many cities won't let you water from 6am-9am. when a water restriction is in order.

If you limit the amt. of time your grass is wet, the chance of fungus or disease is diminished.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> If you limit the amt. of time your grass is wet, the chance of fungus or disease is diminished.


Agree.

You really never want to have your turf damp for more than 6 hours at any stretch. 

Also agree with planting disease resistance species. Let me guess, you have turf type tall fescue? If so, just mow shorter in the fall to avoid snow mold-it's only real issue IMO.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

LoBrass said:


> Agree.
> 
> You really never want to have your turf damp for more than 6 hours at any stretch.
> 
> Also agree with planting disease resistance species. Let me guess, you have turf type tall fescue? If so, just mow shorter in the fall to avoid snow mold-it's only real issue IMO.


Grass was here when I bought 20 years ago. Mostly fescue with some bluegrass (mainly the backyard with the bluegrass).

3 1/4 to 3 1/2" till fall then down to 2 in. just before winter. Never bag the grass, always mulch. Fertilize maybe twice per year. Cut every 4th day or so. And absolutely no thatch.
Picture doesn't do it justice. Much greener in person.










I haven't seen fusarium blight in any lawns of my customers in years. Red thread, yes.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

Sling said:


> I don't want to hijack ..... but .... would sodded lawns benefit from overseeding since the soil beneath is not that great ?


Sod doesn't automatically mean poor soil.

Overseeding, heck yes!! Just keep in mind that you want to overseed with a purpose. By that I mean you should overseed to accomplish at least one goal. Goals may be to increase disease tolerance, drought resistance, adapt to changes or even better color. The bottom line though is that you have a stand in place and want to make improvements. Do not use perennial ryegrass at all. Their is no need for it if you have an existing stand. Straight bluegrass or tall fescue (multiple varieties) is what I like to overseed with. Also, always aerate before overseeding at least a couple times to increase your soil to seed contact. Just broadcasting seed over an existing lawn will generate an incredibly low germination rate which is a waste of coin in my book.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

LoBrass said:


> Just broadcasting seed over an existing lawn will generate an incredibly low germination rate which is a waste of coin in my book.


Slit seeding.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> Grass was here when I bought 20 years ago. Mostly fescue with some bluegrass (mainly the backyard with the bluegrass).
> 
> 3 1/4 to 3 1/2" till fall then down to 2 in. just before winter. Never bag the grass, always mulch. Fertilize maybe twice per year. Cut every 4th day or so. And absolutely no thatch.
> Picture doesn't do it justice. Much greener in person.
> ...


That's a beauty.


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