# new fire pits ( I hate them)



## mdad

I was wondering what everybody else thought of the new fire pits at all state parks. I do not like them. I decided to ask the DNR why? and am sharing what I was told. The following question and answers were over a several day period .

QUESTION: WHY ARE THE NEW FIREPIT/RINGS BEING PUT IN? THEY DO NOT ALLOW FOR GOOD WARMTH TO RADIATE FROM THE PIT? MORE WOOD HAS TO BE BURNED TO GET ANY AMOUNT OF HEAT FROM THEM AND NOTHINGGETS HEAT EXCEPT YOUR FACE. WHY DON'T THEY HAVE LOW RINGS ANYMORE?

RESPONSE: THERE ARE A COUPLE OF REASONS. ONE, THEY ARE SAFER. PEOPLE ARE LESS LIKELY TO WALK AND TRIP INTO THEM. TWO, THEY ARE ADA STANDARD. THIS MEANS THEY MEET REQUIREMENTS UNDER THE AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT.

QUESTION: THE NEW RINGS DO NOT GIVE WARMTH. WHY DOES EVERY SITE HAVE TO HAVE THEM? WHAT IS THE COST PER RING? HOW MANY PITS IN THE STATE ARE BEING REPLACED? WHY DON'T THY JUST DO A COUPLE LIKE HANDICAP PARKING SPOTS? I DO NOT BELIEVE THEY ARE THAT MUCH SAFER. DO YOU HAVE DATA THAT SUPPORTS THIS CLAIM. WHY CAN'T WE HAVE BOTH RINGS AND LET US CHOOSE?

RESPONSE: THE SAFETY ISSUE GOES A LITTLE FURTHER THAN SIMPLY THE TRIP AND FALL FACTOR; THERE IS AN INSULATOR BETWEEN THE TWO LAYERS THAT PREVENT THE OUTSIDE FROM GETTING TOO HOT. THIS IN TURN PREVENTS "LITTLE HANDS FROM GETTING BURNED".
ALSO, THEY CANNOT BE MOVED. WHEN WE HAD SMALLER PITS, PEOPLE WOULD PULL THEM AND MOVE THEM. THIS WOULD LEAVE DEBRIS ALL OVER THE SITE. THIS INCLUDED , AT TIMES, HOT COALS. THIS IS NOT SAFE. THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS SAFETY.

QUESTION: I AM STILL CURIOUS WHAT THE COST ARE? HOW MUCH PER UNIT AND HOW MANY SITES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN?

RESPONSE: THERE ARE 13,000 CAMPSITES IN THE MICHIGAN STATE PARK SYSTEM BUT THERE ARE SOME ALONG LAKE MICHIGAN THAT DO NOT HAVE FIRE RINGS.
ALSO-FIRE CIRCLES ARE ALWAYS BEING REPLACED. THEY ARE A MAINTENANCE ISSUE. THE ONES THAT WERE LOW TO THE GROUND BESIDES BEING A SAFETY ISSUE AND NOT ADA ACCESIBLE WOULD WEAR OUT FASTER. THE EDGES WOULD GET SHARP, BENT AND DENTED. PEOPLE WOULD NOT SEE THEM AND DRIVE INTO THE CIRCLE. THIS WAS ESPECILLAY THE CASE IN THE FALL WHEN LEAVES WERE DOWN.
EACH YEAR A PARK WOULD GET AN AMOUNT OF MONEY TO REPLACE A NUMBER OF THE BENT AND DAMAGED RINGS. IT WAS NEVER ENOUGH TO REPLACE ALL THAT WERE NEEDED.
THE CURRENT COST OF THE FIRE RINGS BEING PLACED ON THE SITES IS $125 EACH. 
THESE LAST ALOT LONGER THAN THE OLDER VERSION.


Am I crazy for feeling like the burecrats know what is good for me no matter what I think? :rant: They do not even know if the new rings are going to last longer. Fires have to be so big the out side ring still gets hot enough for kids to get burnt. 13,000 times $125 is 1.625 million. and they are closing down state forest campgrounds to save money. Thank-you for reading my rant. If you do not like the new rings complain often and loudly when you go camping. They do have satisfaction surveys at state park offices.


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## Barothy

You may hate them but you should prepare yourself to get used to them. As stated in your post, these are designed to meet the requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act. The Michigan State Parks have to follow the law.


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## tommy-n

yep, I guess if you hate them that bad you could start using the private campgrounds instead. They are not anymore money and alot nicer in many cases. Seems the price just keeps getting higher and higher for what you get and to many rules that make no sense


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## Linda G.

I rarely get into state parks except during the off seasons, so have not yet seen these new fire rings. But I am curious as to how a fire ring can be handicapped accessible? Can someone explain the difference?

$125 for a fire ring is unbelievable, not when you can get them in the store for $40 and that's the fancy decorative ones that are just as safe, I'm sure. But that's government for you. I could tell you about a certain county government up here that spent $26,000 on carpeting for a suite of offices encompassing about as much room as it took me to carpet my new addition for $900.


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## Barothy

The new fire pits are basically a two 1/2 foot diameter metal ring surrounded by a three foot diameter metal ring (not actual dimensions) with six inches of concrete poured in-between the two and standing about two 1/2 feet high. My "guess" regarding the ADA law is that the height of the ring allows someone wheelchair bound to be next to the fire without the lower extremities being exposed to the heat of the fire.

I'm sure if you are camping with small children you would appreciate the height of the fire pit. You would really have to work on it to fall into the fire with the new ones.


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## River1

I agree with Mdad. The new campfire pits, high as they are, do not make for a nice fire on a chilly day. I camp in the colder months and have found that the warmth just doesn't radiate. As mentioned, a simpler (and cheaper) solution would have been to designate certain sites as handicap accessible. I do think that persons with disabilities should have equitable access to enjoy the out-of-doors (along with all manner of public places) but this seems extreme...and a waste of money.


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## SoggyPaws

tommy-n said:


> yep, I guess if you hate them that bad you could start using the private campgrounds instead. They are not anymore money and alot nicer in many cases. Seems the price just keeps getting higher and higher for what you get and to many rules that make no sense


The private grounds are going to them too. We cam in Beula....have for many years....at the Timberline Campground. They had the new ones at least 10 years ago even on the permanent sites. 

On our site we dug a hole and basically recessed the fire pit into the ground about half it's height and filled the inside with dirt to bring the fire up. We used the winch on the Jeep to move the dang thing.

Anyway, the owner noticed it and un buried it when we were gone. We returned for another week stay and re buried it. We talked to him and explained out dis-satisfaction and he gave us the same ADA bull. We argued that it was a permanent site and it didn't need to meet ADA rules as no one but my family would be using it. He finally caved and let us leave it.

But yea....I hate them.:lol:


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## mdad

To me a fire provides three main functions: light, a cooking source and warmth. The state has managed to screw up one of three main functions of the campfire. I just do not believe the ADA means that every site has to have this type of ring. I think it would be more prudent to teach your kids to not walk by the fire (its hot) than expect that the state makes a campsite perfectly safe for them. The other option is to leave them in the car with a bike helmet on in their child safety seat. Private campgrounds are great but the state seems to have quite a head start in locating parks in areas that I wish to utilize. I will continue to use this great public resource. I just wish we could improve one of the basic aspects of camping.


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## Big Reds

You asked for my opinion... so here it is. I actually think this is a good idea for one reason and one reason only. SAFETY! 
Imagine, if you will, you are sitting around the campfire, with the old style ring, your two year old is walking around as you reach for another hot dog or marsh mallow. You turn around to screams from your wife and your beautiful two year old is hands and face first into the fire you built. I will save you the gory details... you can imagine.
The new pit design will help if not prevent this from happening. A little heat loss seems a bit trivial to me at this point. 
Again... my opinion.


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## Dedge

I love them. My daughters are now 3 and 5 so they know better, but when they were younger I really liked having the new rings. To each his own...


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## SoggyPaws

Well kids aren't the only ones to fall in a fire. Friend of mine, Don, fell into one of these new style ones and it wasn't pretty. He was backing up and the ring is so high that it clipped him in the back of the leg and he literally sat in the fire pit. He's a big guy and it was difficult to get him out.

Safety is the parent's responsibility. 

I am tired of being saved by the state for everything that can hurt me. I grew up having a rock ring for a fire pit...guess what? I'm still here 40 some years later.


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## Barothy

SoggyPaws said:


> I am tired of being saved by the state for everything that can hurt me. I grew up having a rock ring for a fire pit...guess what? I'm still here 40 some years later.


There's a simple solution for everyone, when looking to make your next campground reservation, ask what sort of fire pit they have at their sites? Then, only patronize the campgrounds that have fire pits which meet your approval.


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## sullyxlh

Big Reds said:


> You asked for my opinion... so here it is. I actually think this is a good idea for one reason and one reason only. SAFETY!
> Imagine, if you will, you are sitting around the campfire, with the old style ring, your two year old is walking around as you reach for another hot dog or marsh mallow. You turn around to screams from your wife and your beautiful two year old is hands and face first into the fire you built. I will save you the gory details... you can imagine.
> The new pit design will help if not prevent this from happening. A little heat loss seems a bit trivial to me at this point.
> Again... my opinion.





SoggyPaws said:


> *Safety is the parent's responsibility.*


Bingo
We have a winner!!!


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## Ports

Even my two year old son understands hot. He practically won't eat anything warmer than room temp. Just because someone is wheelchair bound it doesn't mean their immobile. Can't they do what the rest of us do if it's too hot, move back

Ports


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## Kenifish2

I have small children and have been camping at state parks for many years and i am glad they changed them, those that think their superior parenting skills prevents serious accidents from happening are exactly the ones that need imposed safety.


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## john warren

i like them because...
they are a safe way to have a fire.
they are a specific location to have a fire.
they preclude piling stupid amounts of wood .(hopefully)

if your a long time camper you have watched the gradual decline in common campground courtesy. if you have seen this,, you understand why campgrounds are more and more seeming as if they are run by campground nazi's.


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## jimbo

Kenifish2 said:


> I have small children and have been camping at state parks for many years and i am glad they changed them, those that think their superior parenting skills prevents serious accidents from happening are exactly the ones that need imposed safety.


 obama fan i assume?


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## tommy-n

Roads are falling apart, bridges are getting old and need repair, campgrounds are getting run down but yet the price just keeps getting higher on everything . What happened one child or someone in a wheelchair got burnt? That does not even come close to all the accidents that are caused by our poor road conditions not to mention all the damage that is caused by pot holes everything spring. What a waste of money, what fat ass donut eaters came up with this idea. If your so scared your kids might get hurt just because you don't want to watch them stay home and watch tv


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## SoggyPaws

Barothy said:


> There's a simple solution for everyone, when looking to make your next campground reservation, ask what sort of fire pit they have at their sites? Then, only patronize the campgrounds that have fire pits which meet your approval.


You can't. Excluding the times I have camped in Canada, I haven't been in a campground in over 5 years that has anything except the new ones. 



Kenifish2 said:


> I have small children and have been camping at state parks for many years and i am glad they changed them, those that think their superior parenting skills prevents serious accidents from happening are exactly the ones that need imposed safety.


:rant:
It's people like you that want the government to protect them from everything that is or could be bad that are screwing everything up. 

It doesn't take superior parenting skills, it takes paying attention to your damn kids, teaching them that FIRE IS HOT, and being responsible for what your kids are doing...all the time. It's not my damn job to keep you safe, you need to take it upon yourself to do that. 

Bleeding heart liberal idiots need to understand that we don't need to be protected from everything on the planet. Don't you know that a mosquito can carry disease, so can a tick. Do you want the government to regulate who can go outside based on whether or not you put the bug juice on? If I were you I would stay home and seal your house up AIRTIGHT. That would fix it.


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## Big Reds

Maybe a little over the top there Soggy?


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## SoggyPaws

Maybe. Sorry. I shouldn't post here when I am in the middle of a political debate on another site. It kinda boiled over to here.

Dang...can't edit it either.


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## jimbo

SoggyPaws said:


> It's people like you that want the government to protect them from everything that is or could be bad that are screwing everything up.


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## SA ULTRA MAG

We always just fill them half full of sand........problem solved.


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## tommy-n

Yeah, we have had good success filling them with concrete 3/4 full also


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## Kenifish2

SoggyPaws said:


> You can't. Excluding the times I have camped in Canada, I haven't been in a campground in over 5 years that has anything except the new ones.
> 
> 
> 
> :rant:
> It's people like you that want the government to protect them from everything that is or could be bad that are screwing everything up.
> 
> It doesn't take superior parenting skills, it takes paying attention to your damn kids, teaching them that FIRE IS HOT, and being responsible for what your kids are doing...all the time. It's not my damn job to keep you safe, you need to take it upon yourself to do that.
> 
> Bleeding heart liberal idiots need to understand that we don't need to be protected from everything on the planet. Don't you know that a mosquito can carry disease, so can a tick. Do you want the government to regulate who can go outside based on whether or not you put the bug juice on? If I were you I would stay home and seal your house up AIRTIGHT. That would fix it.


 No, its dumb folks like yourself that think S**T does not happen, so the government has to protect children from stupid parents, i bet you think seatbelts are stupid and helmets are for liberals, well i do not want to have to pay for your dumb a** when you can't pay the medical bills. Damn welfare replublicans.:rant: For the record i am a Centrist.:evil:


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## Kenifish2

jimbo said:


> obama fan i assume?


 How does my statement reflect who i am a fan of? I sure hope you were not a W fan, what a failure that turned out to be.


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## Alpena_Hunter

Big Reds said:


> You asked for my opinion... so here it is. I actually think this is a good idea for one reason and one reason only. SAFETY!
> Imagine, if you will, you are sitting around the campfire, with the old style ring, your two year old is walking around as you reach for another hot dog or marsh mallow. You turn around to screams from your wife and your beautiful two year old is hands and face first into the fire you built. I will save you the gory details... you can imagine.
> The new pit design will help if not prevent this from happening. A little heat loss seems a bit trivial to me at this point.
> Again... my opinion.


 
I haven't seen these new rings yet but it Sounds to me like the new pits may actually have a 6" flat top (2 rings filled with concrete in between) ledge that a child could try to walk around the fire on and then fall in the fire?


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## Alpena_Hunter

jimbo said:


> obama fan i assume?


 
lol


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## QDMAMAN

> Big Reds said:
> 
> 
> 
> You asked for my opinion... so here it is. I actually think this is a good idea for one reason and one reason only. SAFETY!
> Imagine, if you will, you are sitting around the campfire, with the old style ring, your two year old is walking around as you reach for another hot dog or marsh mallow. You turn around to screams from your wife and your beautiful two year old is hands and face first into the fire you built. I will save you the gory details... you can imagine.
> *The new pit design will help if not prevent this from happening.* A little heat loss seems a bit trivial to me at this point.
> Again... my opinion.
Click to expand...

What sort of parent thinks that a 6" double ring is a sufficient safety barrier to allow them to ignore their 2 yo. Do you feel that a roped off swim area is sufficient to let your 2 yo swim at will?
If someone really NEEDS a campfire to stay warm when they're camping I'd be shocked. As long as it doesn't slow down the S'mores and hotdogs it works for me!

Big T


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## Joeski

QDMAMAN said:


> What sort of parent thinks that a 6" double ring is a sufficient safety barrier to allow them to ignore their 2 yo. Do you feel that a roped off swim area is sufficient to let your 2 yo swim at will?
> If someone really NEEDS a campfire to stay warm when they're camping I'd be shocked. As long as it doesn't slow down the S'mores and hotdogs it works for me!
> 
> Big T


Huh? I camp not only in the summer but in spring and fall also. Therefore on a cold spring or fall night, I DO need a campfire to stay warm, unless I want to sit there in a snowmobile suit.

Personally, I'm tired of the government trying to save me from myself, and using public funds to do so. Maybe the bureaucrats will REALLY do us a favor and ban campfires altogether. Then you can cook your hotdogs on the campstove, until that gets banned also.


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## wally-eye

Whats up with this generation. Heck when I was a young kid in the early 50s we had a 8,000 lb television setting on a 3 lb tv tray.....and used 5 gallons of gas at a time lighting a bonfire.....and used to set shotgun shells on fence posts and shot at them with 22s. trying to be the first to hit the primer.........:evil: 

Namby pambys......


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## William H Bonney

Joeski said:


> ..
> Personally, I'm tired of the government trying to save me from myself, and using public funds to do so. Maybe the bureaucrats will REALLY do us a favor and ban campfires altogether. Then you can cook your hotdogs on the campstove, until that gets banned also.


You're not allowed to use camp-stoves anymore, it's in the same part of the memo about the new fire-pits. You'd be surprised how hot those stoves get...


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## tommy-n

Yep, so many rules and less perks than the private camp grounds for the same money. But then again look at the state of michigan right now and they wonder why.


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## QDMAMAN

> Joeski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? I camp not only in the summer but in spring and fall also. Therefore on a cold spring or fall night, I DO need a campfire to stay warm, unless I want to sit there in a snowmobile suit.
Click to expand...

I would render a guess that you camp by choice and not because you're homeless?
Do you stay home form camping when there is a burning ban in affect?

I think the new expensive rings are a waste of money and the "safety" aspect has gotten waaaaay out of hand and the ADA is government extremism at it's best. People need to take responability for themselves and not let their kids play in fire. Maybe everyone should sign a waver when they check in at a state park.
If we're intelectually honest we can all admit that 99% of all camp fires are for aesthetics.


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## Joeski

QDMAMAN said:


> I would render a guess that you camp by choice and not because you're homeless?
> Do you stay home form camping when there is a burning ban in affect?


No, I'll camp during a burning ban, but then part of the pleasure of camping is gone for me. I really love a good campfire!


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## Joeski

QDMAMAN said:


> If we're intelectually honest we can all admit that 99% of all camp fires are for aesthetics.


Not necessarily. During the warm months, yes. But if you camp in the spring and fall as I do, you'll appreciate the warmth of a good campfire. Although aesthetics play a big part, sure.


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## QDMAMAN

> Joeski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. During the warm months, yes.* But if you camp in the spring and fall as I do,* you'll appreciate the warmth of a good campfire. Although aesthetics play a big part, sure.
Click to expand...

Probably about 1% of the camping effort in Michigan. If so, then My estimates are close.


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## outfishin_

I like to cook over the new fire rings....other than that they basically suck.


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## QDMAMAN

> outfishin_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like to cook over the new fire rings....other than that they basically suck.
Click to expand...

Wait a minute! I thought they didn't create enough heat to keep you warm, how can you cook over them? :evil::lol::lol:


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## Gilbey

They aren't 1.6 million dollars nice. I voted no cuz I just don't like them. I experienced them at Indian Lake for the first time two years ago. Had to burn lot's of wood just to see the dang thing, which I had a heck of a fire, but to feel the warmth I had to stand really close to it. No sitting allowed if you want to enjoy it!!


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