# boardman steelhead run



## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Yeah i really dont get it. there are several rivers in this state that have sizable steelhead runs, while also having solid numbers of brook and brown trout. maybe im missing something.


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## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

BMARKS - Boardman does not have an agenda here other than caring for the river he has fished his entire life. I trust his opinion, that said, I am sure he'll produce the pics you demand from one of his frequent outings once that section opens up. He also can easily discern a chub from salmonid smolt. The adipose is pretty darn distinctive even if they are both 'silvery'. I also encourage you to familiarize yourself with the DNR stocking database. It has an immense amount of information available going many years. 

Steelhead YOY fry and age 1 smolts actually hurt a lot if you're a brook trout. The DNR has many talking points on interspecific competition with regard to both juvenile RBT (rainbows) and coho. Most of these are published in UP status and trend reports for larger river systems. One example is the Manistique River where the conclusion is made that passing steelhead above the papermill dam would cause problems for Fox River brookies. I have seen similar statements in the Ontonagon River assessment in regards to steelhead making it above waterfall obstacles. I have always been perplexed why that issue is readily accepted in the UP, but down here there does not seem to be a coldwater river that we don't want to put steelhead into. 

Both of coho and steelhead prefer to spawn in the upper tributaries of river systems and both of them have young that usually require to reside in their natal stream for 1 year prior to heading out to the big lake. It is assumed that the competition for food and primary holding cover with similar sized brook trout in their first year of life that primarily impacts brook trout recruitment to larger sizes. 

In terms of what is showing up in the DNR shocking nets vs what is showing up on the end of our fishing lines, that is also easy to explain. RBT smolts are the most aggressive salmonid we have in our river systems. My life-long efforts of trout fishing the Platter River can attest to this. You will catch easily 8-10 RBTs or coho smolts for each brown trout with whatever gear (appropriate sized) you prefer to use, however a routine shocking analysis will show the number of browns is doing just fine and there are plenty present. For whatever it is worth, you will rarely find a brookie in the Platte mainstream with any sampling gear. 

I am grateful to have more interest in this issue and look forward to an informed discussion with both fellow anglers and our DNR managers as the restored Boardman the attention it deserves.


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## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

BMARKS said:


> Yeah i really dont get it. there are several rivers in this state that have sizable steelhead runs, while also having solid numbers of brook and brown trout. maybe im missing something.


Please show me the sizable brook trout numbers in a good lower peninsula steelhead river. The Two Hearted system in the UP is the main exception to the rule as far as I am aware. Jordan is a close second, however most of that brookie water is well above where steelhead smolts are found in numbers from what I have seen. Now browns are a different story. They often do fine in rivers with a lot of smolts to eat and almost always grow faster than rivers with out smolts.


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## John Hine (Mar 31, 2019)

Benzie Rover said:


> Please show me the sizable brook trout numbers in a good lower peninsula steelhead river. The Two Hearted system in the UP is the main exception to the rule as far as I am aware. Jordan is a close second, however most of that brookie water is well above where steelhead smolts are found in numbers from what I have seen. Now browns are a different story. They often do fine in rivers with a lot of smolts to eat and almost always grow faster than rivers with out smolts.


I’ve fished the boardman my whole life also, I still have trouble with chub v steelhead smolt. I could name many rivers with successfull steelhead/brookie cohabitation but that would be against forum rules & most of those spots are pretty top secret nowadays. I’ll be on one this week.


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Benzie Rover said:


> Please show me the sizable brook trout numbers in a good lower peninsula steelhead river. The Two Hearted system in the UP is the main exception to the rule as far as I am aware. Jordan is a close second, however most of that brookie water is well above where steelhead smolts are found in numbers from what I have seen. Now browns are a different story. They often do fine in rivers with a lot of smolts to eat and almost always grow faster than rivers with out smolts.


I have caught dozens of brook trout in the pere marquette sytem.


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

you kinda answered this for yourself.


Benzie Rover said:


> most of that brookie water is well above where steelhead smolts are found in numbers from what I have seen.


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Benzie Rover said:


> BMARKS - Boardman does not have an agenda here other than caring for the river he has fished his entire life. I trust his opinion, that said, I am sure he'll produce the pics you demand from one of his frequent outings once that section opens up. He also can easily discern a chub from salmonid smolt. The adipose is pretty darn distinctive even if they are both 'silvery'. I also encourage you to familiarize yourself with the DNR stocking database. It has an immense amount of information available going many years.
> 
> Steelhead YOY fry and age 1 smolts actually hurt a lot if you're a brook trout. The DNR has many talking points on interspecific competition with regard to both juvenile RBT (rainbows) and coho. Most of these are published in UP status and trend reports for larger river systems. One example is the Manistique River where the conclusion is made that passing steelhead above the papermill dam would cause problems for Fox River brookies. I have seen similar statements in the Ontonagon River assessment in regards to steelhead making it above waterfall obstacles. I have always been perplexed why that issue is readily accepted in the UP, but down here there does not seem to be a coldwater river that we don't want to put steelhead into.
> 
> ...


missed this whole one, but yeah i mean im not ascribing motive to boardman brookies. i know he loves the brook trout fishery of the boardman, my statement was only that i trust the biologists of the DNR. and the river i fish has seemingly a solid number of all the major trout species in our area.


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

BMARKS said:


> Pics or it didnt happen. ill stick with the biologists on this one.


What an intelligent thing to say. Sorry but I don’t feel the need to take pics of all the dink smolts we catch, maybe you do. I will say that the raccoons all ate well last year summer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

BMARKS said:


> missed this whole one, but yeah i mean im not ascribing motive to boardman brookies. i know he loves the brook trout fishery of the boardman, my statement was only that i trust the biologists of the DNR. and the river i fish has seemingly a solid number of all the major trout species in our area.


I do love it. It was fantastic. Look I could care less if you believe me or the dozen other guys that live here and fish it regularly with me. In the past 3 years we have all noticed a decline in both the number of brookies we catch and also the size. The only new variable is the presence of rainbows. I certainly trust Mark’s opinion and data however I am just describing what I experienced last season. I was told last year by the other biologist that those fish would begin to move out of the system. Definitely wasn’t my experience as I caught smolts close to S Boardman and Kalkaska late season. Some other concerns are land use. The “new” sections of river have extremely fragile banks that are still forming up. Once the googans figure out there are silver fish in there....well.....we know how this ends. 


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## John Hine (Mar 31, 2019)

Boardman Brookies said:


> What an intelligent thing to say. Sorry but I don’t feel the need to take pics of all the dink smolts we catch, maybe you do. I will say that the raccoons all ate well last year summer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Nice


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

This is all for nothing though, right? If the fish pass project moves forward the concept was to only pass native Michigan fish anyway.


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## Tron322 (Oct 29, 2011)

Have to see how the data looks when Ranch Rudolf is sampled again, unless a crew went out under thier work from home last year it hasn't been sampled in two years this summer, with a new species present in that stretch in any countable numbers I wish it would have got sampled last year, but I get covid shut down state employees ability to perform field work. Until then I can say on the upper Boardman like other tributaries with rainbow smolts present that it is hard to keep those little buggers off your hook, they are very aggressive as anyone fishing with them present knows. Get a bunch of those catches where I wonder how all three hooks fit inside of that little mouth.

No point in throwing them on the bank, just gonna piss people off, similar to people throwing steelhead over union. We all know that stuff happens but what's the point of writing it down here.

Hope it will even out and the brookies won't be affected too bad, gonna be seeing how it is in a couple weeks for the trout opener, plan on starting on a different trib but will have to stop on the way back home and fish a couple spots.


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Boardman Brookies said:


> What an intelligent thing to say. Sorry but I don’t feel the need to take pics of all the dink smolts we catch, maybe you do. I will say that the raccoons all ate well last year summer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Yeah, i agree, trusting the scientist is probably the most intelligent thing said here.


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Boardman Brookies said:


> I will say that the raccoons all ate well last year summer.


that might not be something i posted on public forums. your wasting a resource of a protected species, very non sportsman and probably illegal.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

This thread reminds me of a cute story about electro-fishing.

A few of my friends were fishing an unmentionable in Mid Michigan when the DNR showed up with their shocking equipment. They started zapping a few holes that were standards for my friends. The size of the fish that came out was unbelievable to them. Tom said, wow where can I get one of these? LOL If we catch you with one of those, we'll make sure you'll never fish again.... LMAO


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

BMARKS said:


> Yeah, i agree, trusting the scientist is probably the most intelligent thing said here.












Hey look there is your little picture you wanted. So maybe it did happen. 



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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

BMARKS said:


> that might not be something i posted on public forums. your wasting a resource of a protected species, very non sportsman and probably illegal.


Turn me in. Turn in the dozens of others that live and fish on this river and have been doing this. This year those fish will be over the legal size. I plan to limit every chance I get. The people that live here and work to restore and manage this river aren’t going to sit back and catour to the weekend warriors that give nothing back to the resource and only trespass and litter. 


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

This guy is off his rocker. now you are insulting me, and trying to say that i trespass and litter. listen dude, all i said was i trust mark over you, end of story. your trying to insult me now for reasons i dont quite understand. im not going to report you, you reported yourself, but dont sit here and act like some steward for a river that is as much mine as it is yours. your the one wasting our resources and keeping fish illegally, not liking something does not mean you get to break the law. get some class.


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

BMARKS said:


> This guy is off his rocker. now you are insulting me, and trying to say that i trespass and litter. listen dude, all i said was i trust mark over you, end of story. your trying to insult me now for reasons i dont quite understand. im not going to report you, you reported yourself, but dont sit here and act like some steward for a river that is as much mine as it is yours. your the one wasting our resources and keeping fish illegally, not liking something does not mean you get to break the law. get some class.


People that put in time, energy and and financial resources feel tied to the river. It truly is a passion of mine. That is why I choose to live here. I could care less that you don’t believe me or the other locals that “know” 

The DNR has one thing in mind for the Boardman. Make it another steelhead river. While they won’t come out and say it is fact. Local groups, you know the ones that actually plant trees, participate in clean ups, fish surveys and picking up after slobs, have an entirely different view. I get your point, you want a hole you can come to once a year, rail steel and leave. Cool but we are organized and working to prevent this river from being destroyed. 


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Boardman Brookies said:


> I get your point, you want a hole you can come to once a year, rail steel and leave. Cool but we are organized and working to prevent this river from being destroyed.


you are speaking out of place here, you know nothing about me, where i fish, what i fish for, where i own property or anything. clearly you have no interest in me or my perspective. ill stop this conversation right now as to not get this thread locked. you do you, and please obey fishing regulations.


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

BMARKS said:


> you are speaking out of place here, you know nothing about me, where i fish, what i fish for, where i own property or anything. clearly you have no interest in me or my perspective. ill stop this conversation right now as to not get this thread locked. you do you, and please obey fishing regulations.


You’ve made your point abundantly clear on this thread and previous ones. I think I have a pretty good idea. BTW, we have a workbee this week at Brown Bridge, see you there? 


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## John Hine (Mar 31, 2019)

Boardman Brookies said:


> You’ve made your point abundantly clear on this thread and previous ones. I think I have a pretty good idea. BTW, we have a workbee this week at Brown Bridge, see you there?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Is this a work bee on how to chuck steelhead smolts up on the bank while worshiping the brook trout? Sounds tempting!


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

John Hine said:


> Is this a work bee on how to chuck steelhead smolts up on the bank while worshiping the brook trout? Sounds tempting!


Show up and you can find out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## TC-fisherman (Feb 15, 2003)

Boardman Brookies said:


> View attachment 762214
> 
> 
> Hey look there is your little picture you wanted. So maybe it did happen.
> ...


Is that a chub?🙄


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## John Hine (Mar 31, 2019)

Boardman Brookies said:


> Show up and you can find out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


If your a proponent of tossing smolts up on the bank I would be the last person you would want to join your party.

Have you ever been to the mill pond in kalkaska? That’s the Boardman as well, it’s full of hammer handle pike, bass, gills & yes, RAINBOW trout. Along with some brookies. They vacate in the summer when it warms up. Those smolts could be from upstream. Check out vroom road, south river & broomhead,


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

John, I’m well aware of where that is. I assure you these fish are not the product of there. They are spawning in the tribs along River Rd. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. It is ok to believe me but it is happening. Prior to Sabin being pulled I caught 5-6 rainbows every above BB. They likely were escaping from Ranch Rudolf. 


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Boardman Brookies said:


> You’ve made your point abundantly clear on this thread and previous ones. I think I have a pretty good idea. BTW, we have a workbee this week at Brown Bridge, see you there?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Please just obey the law and follow regulations. nothing i hate more than poachers.


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## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

BMARKS said:


> you kinda answered this for yourself.


The Boardman river brook trout are found in numbers in the main river channel above Beitner Rapids. Most any other river in the state that has juvenille steelhead will have brook trout populations confined to small tributary streams and the upper most portions of the river. You will not find brook trout in any numbers in the main branch of PM below US10. I have been on many electroshocking crews on the mainbranch and pretty much every trib of both the main and south branch of the PM. I can tell you where the brookies are and are not first hand for that entire watershed. You don't find them in areas with high smolt concentrations. 

I trust Boardman's opinion and I also trust Mark's opinion as a biologist. *My main point has been and will continue to be that the DNR in the UP manage trout streams with the open acknowledgement that interspecfic competition between brook trout and juvenille steelhead will reduce the range of where brook trout are found in any given river system. The Northern Lower biologists have not yet stated this in management plans or recommendations.* The research I have read has generally supported what the UP biologists have been saying. I will also disengage and focus my efforts with our biologists and others that care about the Boardman as it is now, not for the possible steelhead factory some wish it to be. 

Good luck to you.


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Benzie Rover said:


> I trust Boardman's opinion and I also trust Mark's opinion as a biologist.


You are free to do as you will. but this statement here is an oxymoron. you cannot agree with both, they are opposite. Honestly any clout that boardman brookies had should be gone when he not only admitted to poaching, but bragged about it.


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## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

BMARKS said:


> You are free to do as you will. but this statement here is an oxymoron. you cannot agree with both, they are opposite. Honestly any clout that boardman brookies had should be gone when he not only admitted to poaching, but bragged about it.


Read the words. I said I trust them both. Again, Norther Lower biologists have remained mute on this subject, whereas UP biologist acknowledge it. If Mark or whomever ultimately opines that brook trout are not impacted by interspecific comp with RBT smolts, I will *not *agree with that. But I trust Mark, he's a good man and does a lot of great work. Now I thought we were both done with this conversation?


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

Benzie Rover said:


> Read the words. I said I trust them both. Again, Norther Lower biologists have remained mute on this subject, whereas UP biologist acknowledge it. If Mark or whomever ultimately opines that brook trout are not impacted by interspecific comp with RBT smolts, I will *not *agree with that. But I trust Mark, he's a good man and does a lot of great work. Now I thought we were both done with this conversation?


yet here you are. only you can defend your position?


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

BMARKS said:


> yet here you are. only you can defend your position?


And so are you after the fact. So give it a rest, please.

To get this thread back on track, I saw a guy land a very nice steelhead right by the post office this afternoon. Very silver and super fresh. This time of year there are definitely fish downtown. That whole section down there used to be fantastic. Not sure anymore since all the development. I bet if one was to hit those holes you’ll hook into some. If you venture up higher around the old Boardman and Sabin damn please take care as the banks are still very unstable out there. Also some very swift water and deep holes, so use caution. 


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## wraith1516 (May 16, 2021)

Boardman Brookies said:


> I do love it. It was fantastic. Look I could care less if you believe me or the dozen other guys that live here and fish it regularly with me. In the past 3 years we have all noticed a decline in both the number of brookies we catch and also the size. The only new variable is the presence of rainbows. I certainly trust Mark’s opinion and data however I am just describing what I experienced last season. I was told last year by the other biologist that those fish would begin to move out of the system. Definitely wasn’t my experience as I caught smolts close to S Boardman and Kalkaska late season. Some other concerns are land use. The “new” sections of river have extremely fragile banks that are still forming up. Once the googans figure out there are silver fish in there....well.....we know how this ends.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman





Boardman Brookies said:


> And so are you after the fact. So give it a rest, please.
> 
> To get this thread back on track, I saw a guy land a very nice steelhead right by the post office this afternoon. Very silver and super fresh. This time of year there are definitely fish downtown. That whole section down there used to be fantastic. Not sure anymore since all the development. I bet if one was to hit those holes you’ll hook into some. If you venture up higher around the old Boardman and Sabin damn please take care as the banks are still very unstable out there. Also some very swift water and deep holes, so use caution.
> 
> ...





John Hine said:


> Is this a work bee on how to chuck steelhead smolts up on the bank while worshiping the brook trout? Sounds tempting!


I hope i dont see you chucking rbt smolt on the bank, 'cuse we'll see how fast the dnr can show up


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## kzoofisher (Mar 6, 2011)

BMARKS said:


> You are free to do as you will. but this statement here is an oxymoron. you cannot agree with both, they are opposite. Honestly any clout that boardman brookies had should be gone when he not only admitted to poaching, but bragged about it.


I'm a little late to this conversation but here goes. Benzie's statement is not an oxymoron or even a contradiction.

_The BT and BKT populations in the Boardman are healthy_.

_All you catch are steelhead smolts_

Both these statements can be true. To use a a warm water example: walleye populations in the Detroit River have been healthy for many years yet every year the walleye guys dread the arrival of silver bass because they're so aggressive it's hard to fish past them and get your target species. But they're native so what you gonna do?

Steellhead (& browns) aren't native. There is no biological or scientific reason to expand the waters they inhabit. There is plenty of data showing that their introduction will reduce numbers of native fish, not eradicate but reduce. So why do we introduce them into new areas? Because a major component of fisheries management is managing for social goals that keep stakeholders happy and increase economic benefits. Letting steelhead into the upper Boardman is 100% a social goal. It will bring tourist money to the area and save hatchery money with wild fish going to the big lake. And steelhead fisherman are a large, rich, loud constituency of the DNR so they're going to win this (sorry BB & BR).

I'm not endorsing or criticizing the DNR's decision, I'm just explaining how the system works. And I’m hoping, probably uselessly, that the people who are all for this purely social management change will feel the same way in the future. But I’ll bet when it’s something they don’t want they’ll be outraged that Science! doesn’t say whatever it is is completely necessary.


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

This thread got BMarks banned apparently.

pity. 🤗


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## TroutFishingBear (Aug 31, 2007)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> This thread got BMarks banned apparently.
> 
> pity. 🤗


Please reinstate a classic member????


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## kzoofisher (Mar 6, 2011)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> This thread got BMarks banned apparently.
> 
> pity. 🤗


A quick look at his last few days of posting shows he was getting combative on a range of subjects.

If you're in a foul mood it's a good idea to take a break from internet sites that don't thrive on conflict.


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## B.Jarvinen (Jul 12, 2014)

Any news on building the pass-through facility dam fish sorting dealio? Pretty fascinating idea regardless. 


I did some invasives species control work (dry ground woody plants) around the Sabin removal area in spring ‘20. Surprisingly fast water; my take-away was that Kayak use would be heavy. So was just wondering about that, too. Not an area I frequent.


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> This thread got BMarks banned apparently.
> 
> pity. 🤗


Negative.


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

BMARKS said:


> Negative.


Hey, BMarks. How you doing! 🥳


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## BMARKS (Nov 6, 2017)

OH-YEAH!!! said:


> Hey, BMarks. How you doing! 🥳


Great, had some good nights fly fishing lately.


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