# Grand River Lyons Dam Removal



## Jay Wesley

After several years of fund raising and permit processes, the Lyons Dam will be removed. 

The process has started with equipment in the water.









The project involves lowering the dam, protecting stream banks above and below the dam, and maintenance of the bridge below the dam. 

Please avoid this area until the project is complete. 

Thanks for your patience. It will be an exciting area to fish when the project is completed.


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## The Eyes Have It

Jay Wesley said:


> After several years of fund raising and permit processes, the Lyons Dam will be removed.
> 
> The process has started with equipment in the water.
> View attachment 219920
> 
> 
> The project involves lowering the dam, protecting stream banks above and below the dam, and maintenance of the bridge below the dam.
> 
> Please avoid this area until the project is complete.
> 
> Thanks for your patience. It will be an exciting area to fish when the project is completed.


I hope your right


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## 357Maximum

SAWEET, thanks for the info Jay.


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## Trout King

Jay Wesley said:


> After several years of fund raising and permit processes, the Lyons Dam will be removed.
> 
> The process has started with equipment in the water.
> View attachment 219920
> 
> 
> The project involves lowering the dam, protecting stream banks above and below the dam, and maintenance of the bridge below the dam.
> 
> Please avoid this area until the project is complete.
> 
> Thanks for your patience. It will be an exciting area to fish when the project is completed.


Are there going to be stream improvements made ?


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## Jay Wesley

Yes. Eroding stream banks will be stabilized. A rock/riffle weir structure will be built in the dams existing location, flows will be more natural and faster above the dam providing more spawning habitat, and a toe-wood bank structure will be put in above the dam to stabilize the high bluff.


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## Trout King

Jay Wesley said:


> Yes. Eroding stream banks will be stabilized. A rock/riffle weir structure will be built in the dams existing location, flows will be more natural and faster above the dam providing more spawning habitat, and a toe-wood bank structure will be put in above the dam to stabilize the high bluff.


Thanks, I am just curious to see how this turns out. I frequently fish the river in and around this area. Are the overflow pond and fish ladder going to remain?


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## cireofmi

Local paper was stating that this work was just to stabilize the west bank. That the dam was not being removed at this time. Interesting.


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## Trout King

cireofmi said:


> Local paper was stating that this work was just to stabilize the west bank. That the dam was not being removed at this time. Interesting.


That is what I saw also, hence why I am asking Jay questions.


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## Fishndude

When that machine is churning up the bottom, the fishing downstream should be fantastic.


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## Jay Wesley

cireofmi said:


> Local paper was stating that this work was just to stabilize the west bank. That the dam was not being removed at this time. Interesting.


The current work is an emergency order to address the erosion so the dam doesn't fail. The decision to remove the dam has been held up by a Federal Environmental Assessment. That decision will be final next week. Technically, the dam can not be removed until that is complete. Next week, all approvals should be in place and the dam removal process can begin.


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## cireofmi

I am guessing it would of been gone by now if it wasn't for those endangered clams/mussels they found. I do miss fishing that area, between the dams on the Grand and it's tribs and the gravel pits.


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## slowpaya

Fishndude said:


> When that machine is churning up the bottom, the fishing downstream should be fantastic.


went to fish the scumline but instream activity at a standstill.didnt have all my gear(socks)so ill have to return 2day.water at drought conditions.talked to dnr staff at upriver launch and he thought we would lose a couple feet of water upriver.that would seriously impede my dorys access.might not be able to do wager in low flows.oh well...its all for the better,for the good of all.let the deconstructionists come


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## Trout King

slowpaya said:


> went to fish the scumline but instream activity at a standstill.didnt have all my gear(socks)so ill have to return 2day.water at drought conditions.talked to dnr staff at upriver launch and he thought we would lose a couple feet of water upriver.that would seriously impede my dorys access.might not be able to do wager in low flows.oh well...its all for the better,for the good of all.let the deconstructionists come


Yes, that is what I am going to miss during the summer. It will be very difficult to run that shallow stretch just below Wager. I think ultimately it will be difficult to get above Wager, especially since it can be a challenge as it is now. The rock at Wager is usually the indicator whether you can make it above,I have a feeling that rock will be showing a lot more after Lyons is gone.


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## cireofmi

Guessing this will shift a lot of the fishing to the next dam up river. Now if they could get that dam out of the river, but I doubt that will ever happen.


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## 357Maximum

cireofmi said:


> Guessing this will shift a lot of the fishing to the next dam up river. Now if they could get that dam out of the river, but I doubt that will ever happen.


Webber will not go away in my lifetime, but I can see Wagger going bye bye....fingers crossed.
Or perhaps maybe people will learn how to fish without an artificial CXLIFF NOTES concrete lined fish concentrator. Riffle/Hole/Run/back eddy/frogwater/slipstream/current break/cover is a totally foreign concept to a lot of anglers that only know one spot to stand and catch fish. A bunch of anglers would be well served "micro fishing" for chubs and shiners in the tiniest trickles for a few months. When a kid is raised on brooks/creeks/trickles these thing are quite readily apparent I suppose. Some of my favorite places in that stretch of water and below aren't much more than a particular large rock I happen to know exists. Spending time in low warm water wet wading chasing smallies and such would truly benefit a lot of the folks chasing transient fish in the spring and fall in that section. 

*just one man's take on the issue*


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## cireofmi

I have never seen Wagger Dam, but I thought it was already out and had been for quite some time. Does it actually hold up the river at all?


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## slowpaya

trout king,what in the world are you using to get by wagar,i keep looking at it with my 25merc and we have talked about it but we don't feel good about it, cireofmi wagar dam was cut off and all the chunks lay below the dam,good snaggy cover,fish like this area.the north side is breeched(not sure if naturally)and a hard rifle curves around the old structure .gotta be where the king goes up with his rig. the old structure still backs up a lil water tho


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## slowpaya

ohhh fished the area yesterday,1 smallmouth and missed some(5?)on slip bobber.it was up a lil from day b4 but from usgs its prob back down to min flow.should go back to day,still got leeches and keiths got more minnows.might go with a rapala,


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## Trout King

slowpaya said:


> trout king,what in the world are you using to get by wagar,i keep looking at it with my 25merc and we have talked about it but we don't feel good about it, cireofmi wagar dam was cut off and all the chunks lay below the dam,good snaggy cover,fish like this area.the north side is breeched(not sure if naturally)and a hard rifle curves around the old structure .gotta be where the king goes up with his rig. the old structure still backs up a lil water tho


I have been through it in many jet sleds. The one that I use the most is my best friend's 16 ft Lowe with a 40 horse merc jet. If the rock by the chute is showing, it is a no go. If it is under water then it is a go. There is a majority of the year that we won't risk going through.


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## slowpaya

sounds like fun,it seems coming down would be scarier the curve its got,but I guess its gotta be dealt with either way


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## slowpaya

the dam was being taken out today,when I left the heavy equipment had taken off a 12inch cap off the whole dam and had ascended onto the top and was working that off.tourism rates have increased significantly.fishing wasn't very good tho.probably stop by 2morrow and check out the scene.good job midnr.best video is on facebook. although I cant find the link, ive seen it


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## Trout King

slowpaya said:


> the dam was being taken out today,when I left the heavy equipment had taken off a 12inch cap off the whole dam and had ascended onto the top and was working that off.tourism rates have increased significantly.fishing wasn't very good tho.probably stop by 2morrow and check out the scene.good job midnr.best videos are on facebook


I will have to swing by to see the progress tomorrow. Things will certainly be changing for a few years.


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## slowpaya

headed out to the bustling community of lyons.might fish a few hours or not.been kinda dead lately.oh well...another nice day for a drive.


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## FREEPOP

I saw the vid on facebook also


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## slowpaya

Berkley swim baits,no 3 black fury spinner and a rapala,caught 1 small smellmouth,bout 12 inches,fought like a mature coho.equip failure(hydraulic line on pile driver )slowed deconstruction.probly do some damage to it 2day or early next week.progress foreshadowed by the staunch resistance of the local populace.comments like:the dam would've lasted another 150 years,the fish will all die from the sediments,hillary had her hands in this for sure,could be heard in the subdued whispers.a gentleman in his 60s sobbed and mumbled about how they should have rebuilt it 50 years ago.handed him a Kleenex and moved on.the rallying cry of Save The Dam was often drowned out by the heavy equipment,compressors or the constant communications by coordinating staff and common **** chat. my fishing disguise and the straw hat allowed me to mingle with the local delegates unheeded. IT will go...and THEY will come


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## 357Maximum

slowpaya said:


> Berkley swim baits,no 3 black fury spinner and a rapala,caught 1 small smellmouth,bout 12 inches,fought like a mature coho.equip failure(hydraulic line on pile driver )slowed deconstruction.probly do some damage to it 2day or early next week.progress foreshadowed by the staunch resistance of the local populace.comments like:the dam would've lasted another 150 years,the fish will all die from the sediments,hillary had her hands in this for sure,could be heard in the subdued whispers.a gentleman in his 60s sobbed and mumbled about how they should have rebuilt it 50 years ago.handed him a Kleenex and moved on.the rallying cry of Save The Dam was often drowned out by the heavy equipment,compressors or the constant communications by coordinating staff and common **** chat. my fishing disguise and the straw hat allowed me to mingle with the local delegates unheeded. IT will go...and THEY will come



Imagine the scene when they get around to making 6th street into rubble in 4 or 5 years. :lol:

WOOOHOOOO unleashing the Grand. Might have to make the drive Saturday to see the progress thus far in Lyons. WOOOOHOOO


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## slowpaya

357Maximum said:


> Imagine the scene when they get around to making 6th street into rubble in 4 or 5 years. :lol:
> 
> WOOOHOOOO unleashing the Grand. Might have to make the drive Saturday to see the progress thus far in Lyons. WOOOOHOOO


I'm all for it.let the deconstruction begin


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## 357Maximum

slowpaya said:


> I'm all for it.let the deconstruction begin



Me too, never actually thought I would see it in my lifetime though. Damn sometimes it sure feels good to be wrong.


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## riverbob

be careful what u wish for


357Maximum said:


> Imagine the scene when they get around to making 6th street into rubble in 4 or 5 years


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## 357Maximum

riverbob said:


> be careful what u wish for



That's not a wish,,,it's an inevitability at this point.


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## riverbob

357Maximum said:


> That's not a wish,,,it's an inevitability at this point.


 I under stand that, but they (the dam removers,n rapid builders) r not even sure what's going to happen, when it's gone. Hell we could have big ice that takes out bridges down town, if we have low water the dnr mite be passing out ticket to people for clubbing fish at the mouth of the rouge. MORE PLANNING IS NEEDED,, O that's right, if bad things happen, they will call it a act of god


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## Jay Wesley

Ran into some unexpected snags this week. The old as built plans for the dam were way off. We were expecting a rock crib structure with a concrete cap and then a newer concrete structure. What we found was a rock crib structure that was capped and steel sheeting across the river. This was not in the budget. 

We are regrouping and will leave an extra 3 ft of elevation and cut the steel. A rock riffle structure will be constructed to allow fish passage and small boat passage. This will leave more water depth upstream. 

It was the best compromise given the budget and federally endangered snuffbox mussel.


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## 357Maximum

Jay Wesley said:


> Ran into some unexpected snags this week. The old as built plans for the dam were way off. We were expecting a rock crib structure with a concrete cap and then a newer concrete structure. What we found was a rock crib structure that was capped and steel sheeting across the river. This was not in the budget.
> 
> We are regrouping and will leave an extra 3 ft of elevation and cut the steel. A rock riffle structure will be constructed to allow fish passage and small boat passage. This will leave more water depth upstream.
> 
> It was the best compromise given the budget and federally endangered snuffbox mussel.
> View attachment 220560



Thanks for the updates Jay.

What's going to happen with the fish ladder and the diversion pond in the "new and revised plan" ?


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## 357Maximum

riverbob said:


> I under stand that, but they (the dam removers,n rapid builders) r not even sure what's going to happen, when it's gone. Hell we could have big ice that takes out bridges down town, if we have low water the dnr mite be passing out ticket to people for clubbing fish at the mouth of the rouge. MORE PLANNING IS NEEDED,, O that's right, if bad things happen, they will call it a act of god




I am no hydrologist but it sure seems to me that getting rid of some of that "lake" upstream of the dam would negate a bunch of the icing risk. I have watched a bunch of the USGS videos of what is under that "lake" and is sure looks like getting rid of most of the dam height would make a series of shingled ledges slowly decreasing in height to me. AGAIN I AM NO HYDRO ENGINEER, but as a ditch digger I do know that the best laid plans sometimes fail. Someday's one has to punt and play it by ear.


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## Jay Wesley

357Maximum said:


> Thanks for the updates Jay.
> 
> What's going to happen with the fish ladder and the diversion pond in the "new and revised plan" ?


The fish ladder will be filled as it will no longer be needed. 

The pond was supposed to be filled with all the concrete from dam. Not sure there will be enough to do that now. Will know more next week. We are putting concrete from dam in there now.


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## Jay Wesley

357Maximum said:


> I am no hydrologist but it sure seems to me that getting rid of some of that "lake" upstream of the dam would negate a bunch of the icing risk. I have watched a bunch of the USGS videos of what is under that "lake" and is sure looks like getting rid of most of the dam height would make a series of shingled ledges slowly decreasing in height to me. AGAIN I AM NO HYDRO ENGINEER, but as a ditch digger I do know that the best laid plans sometimes fail. Someday's one has to punt and play it by ear.


There should be less icing due to increased flow. There will still be some though during cold winter conditions.


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## 357Maximum

Jay Wesley said:


> The fish ladder will be filled as it will no longer be needed.
> 
> The pond was supposed to be filled with all the concrete from dam. Not sure there will be enough to do that now. Will know more next week. We are putting concrete from dam in there now.



Thank you, much appreciate the updates and your taking the time that you do here.


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## riverbob

Sorry if i high jacked the thread, Didn't mean to (but 6th st. was mentioned ) right now i'm not sure what being talking about, 6 st or lyons, so i'll lay low n catch some eyes, till i here talk about 6th st........


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## 357Maximum

riverbob said:


> Sorry if i high jacked the thread, Didn't mean to (but 6th st. was mentioned ) right now i'm not sure what being talking about, 6 st or lyons, so i'll lay low n catch some eyes, till i here talk about 6th st........



We share that responsibility I suppose. Jay is still talking about Lyons except for the one direct quote to me about 6th street ice situation in #36.

With the excavators finding the old tightsheeting across the river and "compromising on the fly" both the residents of Lyons and the "removal" crowd met in the middle kinda I suppose...I personally find that kind of neat. I am guessing what Jay is describing to be somewhat like the rock ladders in Chesaning and Frankenmuth with a "sluice" of sorts down the middle somewhere. Sounds cool to me if that is the way it ends up.


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## Jay Wesley

Still taking significant portion of dam out. The rock structure will be 1/4 size of Chesaning but similar design.


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## mbirdsley

Jay Wesley said:


> Still taking significant portion of dam out. The rock structure will be 1/4 size of Chesaning but similar design.


There is good fishing in rock structure like that.


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## slowpaya

a compromise is good,it means we wont lose the upper access(hopefully).cant quite picture what the results will be.it sounds like the island(the park) wont be an island anymore.


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## 357Maximum

slowpaya said:


> a compromise is good,it means we wont lose the upper access(hopefully).cant quite picture what the results will be.it sounds like the island(the park) wont be an island anymore.



I kinda figured my days of running that stretch with the 18 footer were over, probably/maybe still are. BUT that's why I own a canoe. Guess we will all have to see what we got when the water level settles eh?


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## 357Maximum

Jay Wesley said:


> Still taking significant portion of dam out. The rock structure will be 1/4 size of Chesaning but similar design.



Onward and upward, thanks for the updates, sounds cool to me. That pile of rocks in Chesaning is pure art in my opinion. I KNOW them glossy eyed spottailed suckers are making it upstream of Chesaning now and if a walleye can make it most fish can make it. 

The Consumers employees at Webber ought to have a bit more fisherman to watch this fall. :lol:


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## Mr Burgundy

So i have a question for u gents. I fish webber dam alot for salmon and im wondering what the lyons dam removal will do to the water depth and swiftness of the current? Will it improve or get shallower and slow down? Tnks gents

Burgundy


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## MickL

I doubt if it will change.... too much elevation difference between the 2 dams.


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## Jay Wesley

Should be no change.


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## mbirdsley

357Maximum said:


> Onward and upward, thanks for the updates, sounds cool to me. That pile of rocks in Chesaning is pure art in my opinion. I KNOW them glossy eyed spottailed suckers are making it upstream of Chesaning now and if a walleye can make it most fish can make it.
> 
> The Consumers employees at Webber ought to have a bit more fisherman to watch this fall. :lol:


They are catching walleyed regularly in Owosso now due to the chesaning dam being out. Hopefully next summer the Corunna dam comes out.


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## 357Maximum

mbirdsley said:


> They are catching walleyed regularly in Owosso now due to the chesaning dam being out. Hopefully next summer the Corunna dam comes out.



I know and I agree, isn't it great? The water that I normally wet wade for smallies has been serving up the occasional tasty treat all summer.


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## rodbender97

I personally think the water levels will stop all the boat traffic from the power lines to wager dam its not that deep in that streach and its full of large rocks. when the water is high in the spring I think it's going to be tough to get through the rocks in this streach. In the summer when the water is low the main channel will more than likely be all your water to navigate on. I hope not just my two cents


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## slowpaya

rodbender97 said:


> I personally think the water levels will stop all the boat traffic from the power lines to wager dam its not that deep in that streach and its full of large rocks. when the water is high in the spring I think it's going to be tough to get through the rocks in this streach. In the summer when the water is low the main channel will more than likely be all your water to navigate on. I hope not just my two cents


have to agree with you on this rodbender,it will make it a lot tougher.high water will probably allow access but it will have to be done carefully and slowly.right out of the launch might be some tough water too.with the dam proximity its probably got excellent gradient drop thru there.it will be interesting to see the finished results.the area from the lines up might not be so affected by the dam.that area looks like normal flow of the river when its low,but I don't know for sure,soooo...lets hope for the best


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## fishhuntsmoke

I'm not thrilled about the walking we'll be doing but that's what those who want to catch still will be doing!!! The googan crowd will shrink drastically, that I'm thrilled about, the guys who blow out their lower end when we're telling them it's to shallow where they are, they yell "we're not armatures" literally seconds from banging blades funniest ****. 
And it's not a short walk either way you go!!! But I will see a few there 

EVERYTHING IS FOREVER-CHANGING......


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## Trout King

fishhuntsmoke said:


> I'm not thrilled about the walking we'll be doing but that's what those who want to catch still will be doing!!! The googan crowd will shrink drastically, that I'm thrilled about, the guys who blow out their lower end when we're telling them it's to shallow where they are, they yell "we're not armatures" literally seconds from banging blades funniest ****.
> And it's not a short walk either way you go!!! But I will see a few there
> 
> EVERYTHING IS FOREVER-CHANGING......


Who the heck would dare take a prop up much past the first island? lol.


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## 357Maximum

As she looks right now looking upstream from Bridge St:


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## 357Maximum

Looking down from Irish St.




Upstream of the in town boat launch:


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## 357Maximum

Views from the in town boat launch, by the time they get that tight sheeting trimmed it will pretty much be canoe only water I am guessing. I know I will not be running it with my propped 25 no longer. I had to get brave and run a sacrificial prop before, it simply ain't gonna happen by the time all is said and done I think. I am a brave/crazy man with the sacrificial prop installed, buts I aint's no lunatic.


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## 357Maximum

Current view looking downstream from Webber :


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## Trout King

Thanks for the pics 357. I will have to cruise over tonight and check out the work. I have been a bit too busy to drive over and watch the progress.


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## Trout King

Forgot to ask, how is the smell?


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## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> Forgot to ask, how is the smell?


Smelled just fine.


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## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> Thanks for the pics 357. I will have to cruise over tonight and check out the work. I have been a bit too busy to drive over and watch the progress.



We were on the bridge for about 15 minutes and you would swear a parade was fixing to come through town. Busy spot, that bridge is.


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## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> Who the heck would dare take a prop up much past the first island? lol.



Probably the same type of guy that leaves the Ionia launch in an old 9.9 Evinrude driven 14 ft shallow V and goes to base of the Elsie dam in late June because someone said it couldn't be done. :lol:


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## Trout King

357Maximum said:


> Probably the same type of guy that leaves the Ionia launch in an old 9.9 Evinrude driven 14 ft shallow V and goes to base of the Elsie dam in late June because someone said it couldn't be done. :lol:


You are a brave man...


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## Trout King

357Maximum said:


> Smelled just fine.


When I went to look at it on my way home from up north Sunday afternoon it smelled like death by the bridge.


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## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> You are a brave man...



That's not what they guy in the front of the boat was calling me!


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## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> When I went to look at it on my way home from up north Sunday afternoon it smelled like death by the bridge.



There were piles of little dead mayflies under every street light on the bridge, but they were dried up "drifts" of little crispy critters yesterday evening. Maybe that's what you was smelling??????


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## FREEPOP

357Maximum said:


> There were piles of little dead mayflies under every street light on the bridge, but they were dried up "drifts" of little crispy critters yesterday evening. Maybe that's what you was smelling??????


Those things do stink when there's piles of them rotting on the shore.


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## Trout King

FREEPOP said:


> Those things do stink when there's piles of them rotting on the shore.


Or at night when you have about 2 inches of them laying on the bottom of the boat,lol.


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## newellb1

Jay Wesley said:


> After several years of fund raising and permit processes, the Lyons Dam will be removed.
> 
> The process has started with equipment in the water.
> View attachment 219920
> 
> 
> The project involves lowering the dam, protecting stream banks above and below the dam, and maintenance of the bridge below the dam.
> 
> Please avoid this area until the project is complete.
> 
> Thanks for your patience. It will be an exciting area to fish when the project is completed.





357Maximum said:


> Webber will not go away in my lifetime, but I can see Wagger going bye bye....fingers crossed.
> Or perhaps maybe people will learn how to fish without an artificial CXLIFF NOTES concrete lined fish concentrator. Riffle/Hole/Run/back eddy/frogwater/slipstream/current break/cover is a totally foreign concept to a lot of anglers that only know one spot to stand and catch fish. A bunch of anglers would be well served "micro fishing" for chubs and shiners in the tiniest trickles for a few months. When a kid is raised on brooks/creeks/trickles these thing are quite readily apparent I suppose. Some of my favorite places in that stretch of water and below aren't much more than a particular large rock I happen to know exists. Spending time in low warm water wet wading chasing smallies and such would truly benefit a lot of the folks chasing transient fish in the spring and fall in that section.
> 
> *just one man's take on the issue*


Quick question for Mr Jay Wesley. I fully support this dam removal and i am glad we are taking out some of our obsolete dams in the area and improving the natural state of our rivers. My main concern is migratory fish will have more of a presence and impact on the next damn upstream at Weber dam. Through the years i have watched countless steelhead and salmon get trapped in the coffer damn directly below weber damn. Alot of times these fish dont make it out of this coffer and they simply die and float downstream. I realized there is limited reproduction above this damn but it sure seams like a waste of fish and fishery. Are there any plans on creating more of a fence or blockade in this coffer dam to eliminate the fish being trapped? I would think we could have some better fishing upstream of lyons but not if more of the run just get caught in this "suicide pool".


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## Jay Wesley

There was a over hanging grate there to prevent fish from swimming up. However, it was very deadly for fish that went through the turbines. Channel catfish used to get stuck in it by the hundreds. Then a hole formed in the steel wall and salmon and steelhead got caught up there. After several complaints by anglers, it was removed. At least now fish can get out of there. Not sure what we can do. The wall is necessary to keep the turbines from sucking air. Since Wagar dam powerhouse has been out, the water level decrease at the base of Weber requiring the wall. There has not been much change at all in fish passage. We video fish passage in the ladder.


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## slowpaya

the water level is being manipulated by the dams so its low while they are working on it.at least that's what my usgs observations conclude,and we are at drought levels,but that still looks really bad for my 25 merc.the fishings crap below the dam lately and I'm blamin(grumble grumble ) somebody for dramatically altering(temporarily) the downstream alkalinity.thats my story n stickn 2 it.shoulda opened a hot dog stand


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## Trout King

Jay Wesley said:


> There was a over hanging grate there to prevent fish from swimming up. However, it was very deadly for fish that went through the turbines. Channel catfish used to get stuck in it by the hundreds. Then a hole formed in the steel wall and salmon and steelhead got caught up there. After several complaints by anglers, it was removed. At least now fish can get out of there. Not sure what we can do. The wall is necessary to keep the turbines from sucking air. Since Wagar dam powerhouse has been out, the water level decrease at the base of Weber requiring the wall. There has not been much change at all in fish passage. We video fish passage in the ladder.


All I know is after the stocking of coho was moved to Lyons, the returns have been phenomenal. I hope that the plants will remain below Webber Dam.


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## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> All I know is after the stocking of coho was moved to Lyons, the returns have been phenomenal. I hope that the plants will remain below Webber Dam.



It sure did, amazingly so in fact. Whomever made that call needs a great big ATTABOY/ATTAGIRL.


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## Trout King

357Maximum said:


> It sure did, amazingly so in fact. Whomever made that call needs a great big ATTABOY/ATTAGIRL.


Webber and the impoundment is just a giant ambush zone for walleye, smallie, pike and cats to gobble up any migratory fish trying to head downstream to the big lake. Too bad Webber won't be going down anytime in my life. I must say I do enjoy fishing below Webber for a variety of warm and cold water species. It is nice that I now live 5 minutes away.


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## Jay Wesley

Stocking will stay in Lyons for survival of coho. We may tweak minor numbers to maintain fishery in Lansing. Glad that you are catching them!


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## MickL

Jay Wesley said:


> ....The wall is necessary to keep the turbines from sucking air. Since Wagar dam powerhouse has been out, the water level decrease at the base of Weber requiring the wall.....


Last time i was at Webber (about a month ago) the east end of that wall was beginning to collapse. All water that flowed through the powerhouse was flowing only through that collapsing end. I'm wondering if that's been repaired.


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## wilsonm

MickL said:


> Last time i was at Webber (about a month ago) the east end of that wall was beginning to collapse. All water that flowed through the powerhouse was flowing only through that collapsing end. I'm wondering if that's been repaired.


Consumers has been aware of it for a couple years. It is much more noticable during low flows.


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## 357Maximum

MickL said:


> Last time i was at Webber (about a month ago) the east end of that wall was beginning to collapse. All water that flowed through the powerhouse was flowing only through that collapsing end. I'm wondering if that's been repaired.



Nothing has changed as of 3 days ago to that regard.


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## Trout King

Jay Wesley said:


> Stocking will stay in Lyons for survival of coho. We may tweak minor numbers to maintain fishery in Lansing. Glad that you are catching them!


Thanks. I like all these coho better than kings. They bite and are still edible when they first come in. Good eggs for bait and you can catch them all fall. They saved the day more than once when targeting steel last fall.


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## MickL

I suppose it will get repaired when it starts affecting the turbines.


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## fishinfever

Is the narrow section on the west end, where the water was flowing when it was low, free of large rocks so that boats can pass without concern? I don't mean when the water was low but at this level or higher.
Thanks, FF


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## rodbender97

Jay Wesley said:


> This was taken yesterday.
> View attachment 223101


Good luck getting a boat up that


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## The Eyes Have It

Jay Wesley said:


> This was taken yesterday.
> View attachment 223101


Thanks for the pic Jay, looks like the waters up a little above the rapids.


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## rugbym10sflyu

curious how the flow is now that the river actually has water in it


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## Trout King

The river is flowing 4x normal flow right now.


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## slowpaya

Portland discharge rate is more than 10x what it was a week ago,


Trout King said:


> The river is flowing 4x normal flow right now.


average annual flow rate is about 300 this time of year


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## Trout King

slowpaya said:


> Portland discharge rate is more than 10x what it was a week ago,
> average annual flow rate is about 300 this time of year


Yeah, the river has been in bad shape this year. I don't expect to see the water flowing over the rocks very often at Lyons, except during spring and sometimes winter. I know a lot of engineering have to go into these projects, but kind of disappointed to see how small the west side chute is at Lyons. I guess it will take a lot of getting used to seeing it like that. 

I fished Portland last week the day the rain started, it was a pretty stale down there. It did condense the fish nicely though. Happy we finally had a water event. Now I just need to sneak out and go catch some brookies today.


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## slowpaya

Trout King said:


> . I I know a lot of engineering have to go into these projects, but kind of disappointed to see how small the west side chute is at Lyons. I guess it will take a lot of getting used to seeing it like that. QUOTE)
> kinda disappointed in the project myself.the goal of fish passage was accomplished,but expected a little more creativity.was under the impression fishing oppertunitys would be somewhat enhanced with boulders and riffles etc.the final result wont get many nods from locals or fisherman.cant find my way outta this box


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## Jay Wesley

fishinfever said:


> Is the narrow section on the west end, where the water was flowing when it was low, free of large rocks so that boats can pass without concern? I don't mean when the water was low but at this level or higher.
> Thanks, FF


That would be the deeper section and acts as low flow channel for fish passage. Probably OK for jet drives in lower flow.


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## Jay Wesley

Yesterday. 
View attachment 223202


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## Jay Wesley

Is this a perfect design? No. Pretty good though considering the challenges with endangered mussels, potential upstream erosion, upstream boat use, fish passage, and budget. 

I would be happy to discuss those challenges further if you want to chat about it. 269-685-6851 ext 117.


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## Trout King

Jay Wesley said:


> That would be the deeper section and acts as low flow channel for fish passage. Probably OK for jet drives in lower flow.





Jay Wesley said:


> Is this a perfect design? No. Pretty good though considering the challenges with endangered mussels, potential upstream erosion, upstream boat use, fish passage, and budget.
> 
> I would be happy to discuss those challenges further if you want to chat about it. 269-685-6851 ext 117.


Jay, it looks great at these flows, but I'm not sure under normal flows that a boat can/should go through. I notices some pretty big boulders put at the top and middle of the chute. The water was 10x higher in Portland and 8x higher in Ionia than the average flow yesterday. That is a lot of extra water. Summer flows will probably not be navigable even with a jet, but we will see if and when someone has the rocks the give her a try. I have not looked at the boat launch above the old dam since they had it blocked off. How is that coming along? I just would have a tough time justifying taking a boat through the chute in average flows, which doesn't really matter as long as the launch above is open. I guess time will tell how this will all shake out. I am hopeful that higher winter flows and spring flows the chute will be navigable to a careful operator (kind of like 6th St). 

I will admit it is a bit difficult adjusting to this change since I grew up fishing this area. I rarely fished up against the dam, but things are going to be interesting to learn again below and above. 


I appreciate the input from you and it is nice to have such transparent officials with our DNR.


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## Jay Wesley

Launch above will remain open and will need some work for normal and low slows.


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## smokepole

Thank You for all the information Jay!
Are there any plans to put in a ramp below the dam on the east side now?


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## wilsonm

smokepole said:


> Thank You for all the information Jay!
> Are there any plans to put in a ramp below the dam on the east side now?


They did put some cobble in below the dam to create a better launch on the east side. It isn't a boat launch, but is better than what was there previously. There is also a better turn around area. During very low flows, this will still be difficult to get a boat off from unless you have a roller trailer, but during regular flows it shouldn't be a problem. The substrate is hard and you can back up into the river quite a ways.


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## slowpaya

whats done is done,time 2 move on


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## Sparky23

Jay Wesley said:


> Is this a perfect design? No. Pretty good though considering the challenges with endangered mussels, potential upstream erosion, upstream boat use, fish passage, and budget.
> 
> I would be happy to discuss those challenges further if you want to chat about it. 269-685-6851 ext 117.


If the removal at this muchhh smaller dam has been this much of a flow change how are you planning on the 6th st removal? Bigger water bigger consequences


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## riverbob

Sparky23 said:


> If the removal at this muchhh smaller dam has been this much of a flow change how are you planning on the 6th st removal? Bigger water bigger consequences


 relax, DNR told me not to worry, their putting in a lamprey barrier, they said that will keep the water at the same level that it's always been at, so the rowers n boaters don't have any thing to worry about,......In my old age,i think i'm getting immuned to BS, then i was told that the increased river flow will reduce the amount of ice......gee that ice got to go some ware.... by by lamprey thing, n a bridge or two..They need more planning ( gota go cat fishing now, before the waters gone


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## Jay Wesley

Yes. 6th street has many complex issues to consider. We have been working with the City's consulting engineer for a few years trying to work them out. Still a lot of figuring to do there to stop lamprey, prevent flooding, maintain angler access and opportunity, protect endangered mussels, and provide boating and kayaking opportunity.


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## Sparky23

Jay Wesley said:


> Yes. 6th street has many complex issues to consider. We have been working with the City's consulting engineer for a few years trying to work them out. Still a lot of figuring to do there to stop lamprey, prevent flooding, maintain angler access and opportunity, protect endangered mussels, and provide boating and kayaking opportunity.


I have the perfect solution, dont do anything, let people yak the other 100 miles of river they already can and dont. 18" lamprey barrier wont stop lamprey or hell bluegills for that matter, Ive seen 100's of lmpreys get through the ladder now and you think 1 18" will hold back anything? wrong, unless my eyes are lying to my brain then the book that says that one is wrong. Angler access will be fine if you dont care about salmon and steelhead, they will move through so fast fishing will be limited at best. Why do you think guys dont pile up to fish say at johnson park or other spots on a river...fish move through when there migrating and dont stop for long if at all.


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## slowpaya

haven't seen it but a friend said a heavy sand load has been deposited below the old dam.burying the makeshift launch and anything else that didn't have a strong current.most of the rock substrate is buried by the moving sandload.this might take awhile to straighten out.


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## Trout King

slowpaya said:


> haven't seen it but a friend said a heavy sand load has been deposited below the old dam.burying the makeshift launch and anything else that didn't have a strong current.most of the rock substrate is buried by the moving sandload.this might take awhile to straighten out.


Haven't taken a look down there since the water started to come down. Maybe I will swing by tonight after work.


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## dimescfh

Yes LOTS of sand no more rocks or gravel that I could see. I was down there Saturday 8/27 on the east side.


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## Sparky23

Sounds like the same thing that will happen at every high water, same thing that will happen to there sturgeon riffle or any other section they remove. It will be bad when they pull 6th. st. Gunna smell like **** down there for weeks or months from exposed river bed, then all there "fish structure" will get silted in and they will have a kayaking river that doesnt get used 8 months a year by anyone except the people that already use it.


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## fishinfever

View attachment 224477
View attachment 224478
View attachment 224479
View attachment 224481
View attachment 224482


Dam pictures from 8/31/2016. That sand extends from the old dam to about 100 yds below the bridge.
Did they seed the exposed river bottom? Last question: Will the public be able to walk from the park across the exposed river bottom to fish on the new bank of the river?

Tight lines, FF


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## slowpaya

mother nature seeded it,didnt take long,huh.it looks like large boulders/rocks scattered thru the dams byway.dont think I could motor up that.thanks 4 the pics


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## fishinfever

I agree if there are any of those big rocks in the chute I wouldn't even take a canoe up or down it. It does form a deep run along the west side that extends as far as the eye can see below the bridge but I am afraid that when the water drops the "Grand" will be 50 feet wide below the dam. On the plus side someone could get an accurate count on the fish passing the dam if they set up a camera.

Tight lines, FF


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## Jay Wesley

The dam was there for over a hundred years. This is the first higher flow to move sediment. A couple more will start to expose that gravel and cobble again. It takes time to work through. 

It will only get better with each high flow event. It is a typical transition with any dam removal. 

Appreciate your patience. The river will reach equilibrium again and many fish will be happy when it does.


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## Jay Wesley

Has anyone seen the new gravel and cobble exposed above the dam?


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## Swampbuckster

Jay Wesley said:


> Has anyone seen the new gravel and cobble exposed above the dam?


May make sense to where all the sand is coming from!


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## Jay Wesley

You got it. Erosion from one area and deposition in another. Once it slows down, you will have the gravel and cobble in all high gradient areas.


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## smokepole

In the mean time how do you think those 'endangered' snuffbox are doing under all that new sand?


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## Jay Wesley

Good question. That could be an issue. Have not heard from the mussel biologist. They have a bunch tagged so we will be able to estimate mortality. Most were moved further downstream.


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## slowpaya

the upper launch looks ok.the river there has noticeable current increase.commented earlier about how flat that water was even after the removal..quite a dramatic improvement imho.saw several smallies jumpin and they looked very happy.heard someone got a truck stuck below on east side.


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## slowpaya

they looked like they were smiling from what I could see!


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## smokepole

Jay Wesley said:


> Good question. That could be an issue. Have not heard from the mussel biologist. They have a bunch tagged so we will be able to estimate mortality. Most were moved further downstream.



We can only hope for the best.

Something I've been meaning to ask you Jay is what chain of events would have to happen to have a flow gauge installed on the downstream side of Webber Dam?
One that was connected to the national weather service or trails to trout?


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## Jay Wesley

Need someone to pay for it. USGS currently runs all the gauge sites and have been struggling to fund existing sites. Any new sites are typically funded by grants or local projects - typically short term.


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## slowpaya

went up to wagar 2day.ground our way thru some rocks ,gravel, and riffles.made it up w/o getting out of boat(although grounded it a couple times on way back).can see impound effects to just below power lines.from there its the same as it ever was,met another boat below lookout pt. fishin was good:.fish were still there: they said. had a great day on cats,real nice channels and a 12 -15 lb flathead took my buddy about 20 minutes 2 land,going from 1 side of the river to the other,back n forth.navigation would have been a lot better with 4 more inches of water,most bigger cats on sucker minnows(keiths),a few on leeches.launching n loading was a bit ruff,but got her in n out.2 kayaks headed to ionia.and 2 tubers were headed that way also


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## opa

Launched at Ionia fairgrounds and ran upstream until we grounded just down stream from the kayak launch in Lyon. Lots of big rock and didn't feel like trying to find a way thru. Still it was a nice day for a boat ride.


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## slowpaya

last time I came up from ionia I had to stop at same place.watched 2 guys in a small(12-14 ft)w/jet fly up thru that last year.they were not fisherman.ran out to mid river and it was less than 6 inches where they blasted thru.was dumfounded.they tried it going down and hit some rocks,requiring maintenance.think they were contractors involved in assessing the dam .a fisherman wouldn't have ran that gauntlet of rocks/boulders,it was an amazing lil boat tho.impressive to watch


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## Trevor17

So I check out how the flow was tosay


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## The Eyes Have It

Trevor17 said:


> So I check out how the flow was tosay


I gotta admit, it looks pretty nice!...Has anybody seen any fish goin up yet?


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## Trevor17

The Eyes Have It said:


> I gotta admit, it looks pretty nice!...Has anybody seen any fish goin up yet?


No fish when I was there


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## Sparky23

it wont even slow fish down most will blow through it at night with the wram weather, but im sure there are plenty that have already. Looks kinda like a sandy nasty mess right now.


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## slowpaya

checked a few places upriver yesterday ,never saw one.but the smellmouths,channels,n flatheads were hittin pretty good.a bit of activity below weber,coupla canoes launched.any reports from weber??? they r overdue...will they come.... to dinner?


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## smokepole

Has anyone fixed that ramp yet or is it still a PITA?


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## slowpaya

which one,heard a couple people got stuck at the uptown launch


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## smokepole

The one above.


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## slowpaya

hope they get that taken care of,huh


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## slowpaya

some fish scattered thru the upper river to Portland.they are trickleing in .heavy weed dump in upper river.hard to drift anything without salad take-out.smellmouths to 14 in.1 cat bout 5 lbs,rest were mostly small.best bet now ....below weber


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## kendall

Was at Lyons dam Wednesday from about 1:00 pm to about 1:30 pm and did not see a single fish swim through the rocks. The water was shallow enough that it would be very obvious if anything bigger than a bluegill tried swimming upstream.


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## slowpaya

on river bout 6 hrs.no sign-o-salmon


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## MR FISHBONZ

I fished upstream from Lyons at Weber Wednesday eve and no sign of salmon either. I looked back to last year and I didn't start catching until the 24th of september. Should be getting good around there soon....I hope.


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## slowpaya

thanks 4 the report Mr Bonz,nice 2 know somebody else is out fishin!


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## Mr Burgundy

I think it could be a later run this year. It's been very warm and I'm thinking it could throw it off. However if this cold front and rain actually happens then it could be game on real quick. Gl gents


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## Trevor17

I hope you are right, and I hope I can make it out, just had a kid a few weeks ago so I have limited fishing time this year


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## Mr Burgundy

Same situation as me and my best friend. So I definitely hear ya.


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## workingman

Jay Wesley said:


> The dam was there for over a hundred years. This is the first higher flow to move sediment. A couple more will start to expose that gravel and cobble again. It takes time to work through.
> 
> It will only get better with each high flow event. It is a typical transition with any dam removal.
> 
> Appreciate your patience. The river will reach equilibrium again and many fish will be happy when it does.


Thanks Jay


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## fishinfever

Stopped by Lyons and webber yesterday. Didn't see any fish at either place.
I did take a few pictures on the west end.

Tight lines, FF
View attachment 227996
View attachment 227997
View attachment 227998


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## fishinfever

I took a couple videos up close of the fish ladder / boat passage.
Good luck, FF




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1085545688208662






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1085545674875330


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