# Encore long gun to pistol... illegal?



## jem44357 (Jan 27, 2011)

I was told by my local PD that in January of 2013 there was a revision stating that it was again illegal to assemble a T/C Encore from a long gun to a pistol. My understanding was that in July 2011 it was changed so you could interchange any configuration of long gun and pistol. I have searched the internet and this forum for a thread that I thought clarified this issue but I had no luck retrieving it. Any help would be appreciated.

Jim


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## slowpoke (Jan 30, 2001)

But I do think you can, you just need to get the Encore registered as a hand gun. Call your local Police office.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Which ruling are they talking about? Are they referring to a ruling from BAFTE?
You can call the Michigan State Police and ask them the question. They will have the information on the Michigan firearm laws and Federal laws that effect Michigan. When you call, tell them you have a firearm question and would like to talk to a firearm expert when you call. 517-332-2521

MSP 517-332-2521

By the way, if the Encore started out in life as a rifle, converting to a pistol would constitute making a short-barrel rifle. If this is done without prior approval from the AFT and paying the $200 tax, it would be a 10 year felony.


Some light reading for you.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239


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## cleew (Apr 12, 2011)

If the frame began life as a rifle, a rifle it must stay! Even though TC won a supreme court case with their Contender pistol/carbine set, the BATF still holds that any conversion of an originally sold rifle frame to which a barrel 16" or less is attached or which has an OAL of less than 26" is now a SBR. Even should you register your former rifle frame as a pistol, it's still a rifle in the eyes of the BATF. I can, however, find absolutely no limit on the length of a pistol barrel (I have an 18 incher for my pistol). For those of you considering the purchase of an Encore, or a Contender for that matter, I would recommend buying a pistol frame first and then adding what ever grips/stocks, forends and barrels of your choosing. There does appear to be a shady area of, once converting a pistol to a rifle, what about converting it back! Of course, should you be approached by a LEO regarding the now-pistol configuration, you would, of course, have your original registration as such.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

cleew said:


> If the frame began life as a rifle, a rifle it must stay! Even though TC won a supreme court case with their Contender pistol/carbine set, the BATF still holds that any conversion of an originally sold rifle frame to which a barrel 16" or less is attached or which has an OAL of less than 26" is now a SBR. Even should you register your former rifle frame as a pistol, it's still a rifle in the eyes of the BATF. I can, however, find absolutely no limit on the length of a pistol barrel (I have an 18 incher for my pistol). For those of you considering the purchase of an Encore, or a Contender for that matter, I would recommend buying a pistol frame first and then adding what ever grips/stocks, forends and barrels of your choosing. *There does appear to be a shady area of, once converting a pistol to a rifle, what about converting it back!* Of course, should you be approached by a LEO regarding the now-pistol configuration, you would, of course, have your original registration as such.


*There does appear to be a shady area of, once converting a pistol to a rifle, what about converting it back!*

If someone were to convert an Encore pistol into a rifle configuration and then changed it back to a pistol, they would have to be a real turnip to open their mouth and tell the ATF or a LEO that they did this and may have violated federal law.
The problem has more to do with how some over zealous bureaucrat with no comprehension skills has decided to interpret the law than what the law says.


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## jem44357 (Jan 27, 2011)

OK here is the story. I purchased the receiver in 1999 from SSK Ind. with the custom SN 9-26-77 my deceased sons birth date as a tribute to his memory... he would be hunting with me forever. I also purchased a 17"ported Minidreadnaught barrel, Pachmayr pistol grip and fore stock. The forestock did not fit because they used a rifle blank to make the barrel. I liked the look of the pistol fore stock not the rifle one. Because of the issue with the fore stock and getting frustrated not being able to set it up how I had envisioned it I had put it to rest and kinda forgot about it. During this time frame my marriage was going downhill fast and I was in the middle of a house resto with my brother and many other things. Divorce was final in 2003. Daughter graduated June 2007 moved in with me and had her first of 2 psychotic episodes August 07, 2nd one November 08. In 2011 I am digging through and organizing gun documents and don't find any info on the receiver or barrel purchase. I assume my ex found them and destroyed them. The receiver was purchased through an FFL dealer as a pistol and I do not remember registering it, local PD confirmed this. I contacted the dealer and he was of no help. I did receive the sales documents from SSK. I take it to the local PD with said documents to register it and find that I cannot because it was assembled as a long gun, 20ga shotgun. In 2011 I had contacted MSP and was told to have the local PD issue the purchase permit, I was to fill it out and move on, the local PD refused. I revisit it this year with similar results except the last correspondence with local PD desk clerk was she told me the Lieutenant told her to contact Lansing and if they wanted to sign off it would be up to them. I am waiting to hear. I do not want to pay $200. I do not want to purchase another receiver because this is a BS law. Phuck the libtards and the feds they are all a bunch of punk azzes. So back to the question did the law not change in 2011 and was it reversed in 2013? I was certain my research showed this!

Sorry for the length but it is what it is!
Jim


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## cleew (Apr 12, 2011)

Jim, first of all there was no "modification" in 2011 to allow a rifle to be converted to a pistol. Historically, in 1988 TC sued the government, based on their then offered Contender "kit" that contained the parts necessary to assemble either a pistol or a rifle. In 1992 the Supreme Court ruled in favor of TC. The only "modification" the BATF made after that ruling was to allow a complete kit, as offered by the manufacturer, to be assembled as the owner wished, provided the assembly to a rifle had a barrel at least 16" long (and/or 26" OAL). They continued to deny the assembly of a pistol from a rifle if the frame (receiver) was originally manufactured in a rifle configuration. Since the Contender "kit" did not specify rifle or pistol, the BATF went along with the courts ruling on that particular product. It makes absolutely no difference at all as to what the FFL holder wrote on the paperwork, it is only contingent on what the manufacturer originally configured it as. In fact, the FFL holder could be liable for any number of penalties for "falsifying" the records.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

jem44357 said:


> OK here is the story. I purchased the receiver in 1999 from SSK Ind. with the custom SN 9-26-77 my deceased sons birth date as a tribute to his memory... he would be hunting with me forever. I also purchased a 17"ported Minidreadnaught barrel, Pachmayr pistol grip and fore stock. The forestock did not fit because they used a rifle blank to make the barrel. I liked the look of the pistol fore stock not the rifle one. Because of the issue with the fore stock and getting frustrated not being able to set it up how I had envisioned it I had put it to rest and kinda forgot about it. During this time frame my marriage was going downhill fast and I was in the middle of a house resto with my brother and many other things. Divorce was final in 2003. Daughter graduated June 2007 moved in with me and had her first of 2 psychotic episodes August &#8216;07, 2nd one November &#8216;08. In 2011 I am digging through and organizing gun documents and don't find any info on the receiver or barrel purchase. I assume my ex found them and destroyed them. The receiver was purchased through an FFL dealer as a pistol and I do not remember registering it, local PD confirmed this. I contacted the dealer and he was of no help. I did receive the sales documents from SSK. I take it to the local PD with said documents to register it and find that I cannot because it was assembled as a long gun, 20ga shotgun. In 2011 I had contacted MSP and was told to have the local PD issue the purchase permit, I was to fill it out and move on, the local PD refused. I revisit it this year with similar results except the last correspondence with local PD desk clerk was she told me the Lieutenant told her to contact Lansing and if they wanted to sign off it would be up to them. I am waiting to hear. I do not want to pay $200. I do not want to purchase another receiver because this is a BS law. Phuck the libtards and the feds they are all a bunch of punk azzes. So back to the question did the law not change in 2011 and was it reversed in 2013? I was certain my research showed this!
> 
> Sorry for the length but it is what it is!
> Jim



You should delete the SN from your post.

In what configuration is it in now? It doesn't matter, but I am curious. You bought it as a pistol. Now you need to register it because it had not been registered before. You can bypass the jerks at your local police department and get the purchase permit at the county sheriffs office. Fill the permit out as a pistol, sign it as both the seller and buyer and drop the permit off at the sheriffs office. You could mention that you had an incomplete frame and decided to build it as a pistol. You can complete the permit while you are there if you have the info you need. You do not take the firearm with you. I doubt that you will be contacted later. The police department you went to either does not know what they are doing or they are going out of their way to be difficult.

I am not trying to tell you to do anything you may find to be unethical, but the state police are more concerned with the handgun being registered than anything else. You could pick a common barrel length to put on the permit. It really does not matter anyway. The most important piece of information is the serial number, then the name on the receiver/frame. Everything else is added information. Since barrel lengths can change, I would not put down a 17" barrel. It will only confuse them and make them think it is a rifle.


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## jem44357 (Jan 27, 2011)

Thank you for the in depth explanations and I apologize for the some what inappropriate comments but I was a bit frustrated after recently getting whacked on my savings account for a regulation d violation. I was on vaca for 2 weeks and xfering funds from savings and exceeded the 6 limit. I am getting tired of the insanely foolish laws and rules we must deal with every day and it seems to be only getting worse. I cannot remove the SN my edit function is no longer available... another bs pet peeve of mine! LOL

 It is currently unassemled but recently was my Tommy Knocker 20" 20 ga with a thumbhole shoulder stock. I had thought about heading to the MSP near home but maybe the Sheriff is abetter option. During all of this while communicating with the air heads at the local PD when I was questioned about the what configuration it would be I mentioned there are many calibers/barrel lengths I could choose I mentioned it could probably be set up for 50 cal BMG (I know better)... her eyes got real big and as she was holding the receiver in her hands looked up at me and said" This is a single shot right?" LOL 

So on that note do I need to register each barrel configuration for my Contenders and Encore. I have an Armor Alloy II super 14 Contender in 30-30 which is how it is registered. I also have a SS 223 barrel which I have been for years swapping out and hunting with am I in violation of anything?

Jim


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## JDSwan87 (Aug 15, 2010)

Subscribed... Lots of good questions I, and I'm sure many others, would like answers to.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

jem44357 said:


> Thank you for the in depth explanations and I apologize for the some what inappropriate comments but I was a bit frustrated after recently getting whacked on my savings account for a regulation d violation. I was on vaca for 2 weeks and xfering funds from savings and exceeded the 6 limit. I am getting tired of the insanely foolish laws and rules we must deal with every day and it seems to be only getting worse. I cannot remove the SN my edit function is no longer available... another bs pet peeve of mine! LOL
> 
> It is currently unassemled but recently was my Tommy Knocker 20" 20 ga with a thumbhole shoulder stock. I had thought about heading to the MSP near home but maybe the Sheriff is abetter option. During all of this while communicating with the air heads at the local PD when I was questioned about the what configuration it would be I mentioned there are many calibers/barrel lengths I could choose I mentioned it could probably be set up for 50 cal BMG (I know better)... her eyes got real big and as she was holding the receiver in her hands looked up at me and said" This is a single shot right?" LOL
> 
> ...



PM the moderator to edit your post or even the thread.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

jem44357 said:


> Thank you for the in depth explanations and I apologize for the some what inappropriate comments but I was a bit frustrated after recently getting whacked on my savings account for a regulation d violation. I was on vaca for 2 weeks and xfering funds from savings and exceeded the 6 limit. I am getting tired of the insanely foolish laws and rules we must deal with every day and it seems to be only getting worse. I cannot remove the SN my edit function is no longer available... another bs pet peeve of mine! LOL
> 
> It is currently unassemled but recently was my Tommy Knocker 20" 20 ga with a thumbhole shoulder stock. I had thought about heading to the MSP near home but maybe the Sheriff is abetter option. During all of this while communicating with the air heads at the local PD when I was questioned about the what configuration it would be I mentioned there are many calibers/barrel lengths I could choose I mentioned it could probably be set up for 50 cal BMG (I know better)... her eyes got real big and as she was holding the receiver in her hands looked up at me and said" This is a single shot right?" LOL
> 
> ...


The handgun would be registered once. Pick a caliber and barrel length to register it under. I would use a pistol barrel length under 16". After that, you can change barrel and calibers at will with no need to re-register it. It would be registered under the frame's name and serial number once, and these do not change. I would go to the sheriff's office to get the permit and register it. They are usually more knowledgeable. Do not take the frame or completed firearm with you. That is no longer done and most do not allow you to do so.


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## cleew (Apr 12, 2011)

Jim, in the eyes of the BATF, your Contender seems to be currently manufactured, sold and registered as a "handgun" so you are free to put whatever caliber and length of barrel on it that you choose. As far as your Encore is concerned, again, it makes no difference what the FFL holder, your local LEO or the MSP say or do since, at least at the present time, the BATF has consistently maintained that any firearm, originally manufactured and sold as a long gun, can not be made into a handgun without the appropriate licensing, fees and paperwork. Should you convince someone in the state of Michigan to change the paperwork for your Encore to indicate it was originally manufactured and sold as a handgun, you would still be in violation of a federal law with extreme penalties. Bottom line, you may do with either as you wish but, keep in mind, should you end up with an Encore handgun, you would be in violation of a federal law that's been on the books for a long time. Sort of like life, you buy your ticket and take your chances.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

cleew said:


> Jim, in the eyes of the BATF, your Contender seems to be currently manufactured, sold and registered as a "handgun" so you are free to put whatever caliber and length of barrel on it that you choose. As far as your Encore is concerned, again, it makes no difference what the FFL holder, your local LEO or the MSP say or do since, at least at the present time, the BATF has consistently maintained that any firearm, originally manufactured and sold as a long gun, can not be made into a handgun without the appropriate licensing, fees and paperwork. Should you convince someone in the state of Michigan to change the paperwork for your Encore to indicate it was originally manufactured and sold as a handgun, you would still be in violation of a federal law with extreme penalties. Bottom line, you may do with either as you wish but, keep in mind, should you end up with an Encore handgun, you would be in violation of a federal law that's been on the books for a long time. Sort of like life, you buy your ticket and take your chances.


According to post #6, the Encore receiver was purchased through an FFL dealer as a pistol frame. It has not been registered yet. The Feds and the state have no record that it is anything but a pistol frame. As far as it being transformed into a long gun at some point in time, well there is no proof of that.


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## cleew (Apr 12, 2011)

A call or email to TC would quickly verify, provided the original SN is known, how it was originally manufactured and sold. It appears it was purchased from SSK and shipped to a FFL holder so, perhaps, JD Jones may have the info. Reading the variety of posts, I assumed it originally came from the 20 Gauge shotgun mentioned ... perhaps not! If it was, indeed, originally manufactured as a pistol frame, you're good to go with whatever configuration you desire.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

cleew said:


> A call or email to TC would quickly verify, provided the original SN is known, how it was originally manufactured and sold. It appears it was purchased from SSK and shipped to a FFL holder so, perhaps, JD Jones may have the info. Reading the variety of posts, I assumed it originally came from the 20 Gauge shotgun mentioned ... perhaps not! If it was, indeed, originally manufactured as a pistol frame, you're good to go with whatever configuration you desire.


He already said that he purchased the frame as a pistol and has the sales documents from SSK.


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## jem44357 (Jan 27, 2011)

I purchased just the receiver and had it shipped to a FFL. I contacted SSK and was emailed the original invoice showing it was shipped to a sport shop. I do not remember exactly but I think SSK would not ship just the receiver to me which is why I went through a sport shop. It does not state it is a pistol.


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## cleew (Apr 12, 2011)

No, he said the FFL holder "said" it was a pistol frame and, no, he said he can't find the sales documents from SSK for either the frame or the barrel. The FFL holder is NOT the one to determine as to whether or not it actually was a pistol frame, only TC can confirm (or deny) that. Again, it seems it would be relatively easy to contact TC to find out.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

cleew said:


> No, he said the FFL holder "said" it was a pistol frame and, no, he said he can't find the sales documents from SSK for either the frame or the barrel. The FFL holder is NOT the one to determine as to whether or not it actually was a pistol frame, only TC can confirm (or deny) that. Again, it seems it would be relatively easy to contact TC to find out.


He said he did receive the sales documents from SSK.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

jem44357 said:


> I purchased just the receiver and had it shipped to a FFL. I contacted SSK and was emailed the original invoice showing it was shipped to a sport shop. I do not remember exactly but I think SSK would not ship just the receiver to me which is why I went through a sport shop. It does not state it is a pistol.


Go ahead and contact Thompson Contender. Give them the serial number and ask them if the frame was made/sold as a pistol frame or a long gun. That should take care of the mystery and make everyone happy.


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