# Muzzle-loader:What's your favorite projectile & load.



## BuckBuster

Very interesting replies!There is a lot of info to take in from many Knowledgable hunters.Only on a forum like this could you get such a variety of opinions.Very helpful for those of us who are always looking to improve our hunting.Thanks,AL


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## BuckBuster

chad helsel said:


> i was shooting some decent groups with powerbelts 245 aerotip, 3 inch at 125 yards. with 150 777 pellets. i wasn't overly impressed with the knockdown power or bullet expansion. i shot two deer with it. dropped one but i hit him in the spine. the other was a quartering towards me at 30 yards shoulder shot and there was no blood trail and it went over 125 yards. the shot looked perfect.
> and she wasn't a very big deer. i wasn't impressed at all. my dad shot one
> the same day with my 20 guage and a 2 3/4 inch remington slugger in the
> exact same spot and pretty much the same angle. She was 60 yards and 50 #'s bigger and she only went 25 yards.
> I'm looking for advice on new bullets for this year.


 Chad I agree with you on the bullet expansion on Powerbelt aerotip 245 gr.There isn't any.But you could try the 245 hollow point(Copper) or the 295 gr. hollow point lead Powerbelt.Just a suggestion.I haven't tried the lead one but have shot 2 nice bucks with hollow pt.copper powerbelt.!st one in spine at 140 yds,Big hole coming out.The other one at 90 yds.jumped when I squeezed trigger a little further back then I like but because of hitting power & a big exit hole I recovered him within 40 yds.Just an idea.


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## nky_bowhunter

I think accuracy from a muzzleloader depends more on the gun than the bullet. I recently upgraded from my old T/C thunderhawk .54 to the new .45 T/C encore. The powerbelts shot amazingly well (cloverleaf groups at 100 yds) from the .54, but I can barely get a 3 inch group out of 'em in the .45!

I still use the .54 as a loaner for getting new guys into the sport or let people without a muzzleloader use it. My favorite load is 100 grains loose 777 topped off with the 348 gr copper plated powerbelt hollowpoint. EXCELLENT expansion and accuracy...it took a doe last winter at 30 yards, and the bullet didn't exit!!!

In the .45 encore, I use 150 grains 777 topped off with T/C's tiny little 155 grain super 45 XR sabot. They claim that load is getting out there at 2600+ fps....not sure I buy all that but it is FAST! It is very accurate, but I'm undecided on terminal performance. I've only harvested one deer with it, and the shot was head-on. There was virtually no penetration (the bullet hit the shoulder), but it darn near ripped a front leg off. It turned out OK, but I can't help but wonder if a heavier bullet would have done a better job. Any thoughts?


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## rzdrmh

yes, a heavier bullet would make the difference. sectional density theory tells us that heavier weights in the same diameter will penetrate further - search on sectional density here to find a lot of information.

i witness a doe shot last year head on, through the brisket, with 220 grain .50 cal lead projectile, that not only left an impressive entrance wound, but ranged well past the thorax into the vicera.

your intutition seems correct to me - 155 grains is a little light for muzzleloading applications.


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## lumpy

After messing with several loads and projectiles I have settled in to the Hornady SST 250 grain pushed by 100 grains of pyrodex out of mt 50 cal. optima. 

Several of my buddies have switched after trying these also. 
Have found nothing better out to 150 yards


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## BuckBuster

Diggdug said:


> TC Stainless Encore, 130 gr 777, 240 grain powerbelt aerotip.


 How do you like Stainless.My barrel on my TC Black Diamond is Blued.I shoot musket caps,But chamber seems to rust quickly even if I clean it right away.I do use TC's bore butter lube (1000).Also how do you like the powerbelt aerotip for hitting power , penetration & expansion?Just wondering!Anyone else have ideas on preventing rust? Could it be musket caps?Thanks, AL


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## deputy

Ultimate with 200 grains of t7 pellets and a 300 sst, 15 inches of drop at 300yds and for big critters i use 250 grains of pellets and a 300 sst

:SHOCKED:


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## deputy

tjo, not leagal to use during ml season though! is the problem there


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## twohats

T/C Firehawk,powerbelt 295 gr.aerotips,100 gr. pyro. pellets,I have taken three deer with this setup.All three deer were shot from 30 to 40 yrd,s .All powerbelts expanded and fragmented . No shots passed through.The fragmentation caused massive internal injures.Two deer droped with in 20 yrd,s . One went 75 yd,s.


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## TJO

deputy, that's why I use BP sub's you know the commercailly manufactured BP sub's.


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## deputy

which ones! tjo


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## TJO

When I have to I use BM 3 it seems to work pretty good. But smokeless is the way to go when ya can.


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## BuckBuster

twohats said:


> T/C Firehawk,powerbelt 295 gr.aerotips,100 gr. pyro. pellets,I have taken three deer with this setup.All three deer were shot from 30 to 40 yrd,s .All powerbelts expanded and fragmented . No shots passed through.The fragmentation caused massive internal injures.Two deer droped with in 20 yrd,s . One went 75 yd,s.


TH,Sounds like your doing well with 295 gr. aerotip.I have some but i never used them other than at range.Will have to try them hunting.No luck with 245 gr aerotip as far as expansion.Although I've killed 3 deer in one season with them. TJO & Deputy what are you guys talking about?


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## Luv2hunteup

> TJO & Deputy what are you guys talking about?


TJO's favorite load uses smokeless powder which may not be used during the muzzleloader only season but may be used during the regular firearm season.

BP sub = blackpowder substitute such as triple 7, pyrodex and so on.


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## BuckBuster

luv2hunteup,Thanks for the explanation makes more sense to me now.


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## BuckBuster

nky_bowhunter said:


> I think accuracy from a muzzleloader depends more on the gun than the bullet. I recently upgraded from my old T/C thunderhawk .54 to the new .45 T/C encore. The powerbelts shot amazingly well (cloverleaf groups at 100 yds) from the .54, but I can barely get a 3 inch group out of 'em in the .45!
> 
> I still use the .54 as a loaner for getting new guys into the sport or let people without a muzzleloader use it. My favorite load is 100 grains loose 777 topped off with the 348 gr copper plated powerbelt hollowpoint. EXCELLENT expansion and accuracy...it took a doe last winter at 30 yards, and the bullet didn't exit!!!


I'm happy to see you had such good luck with your t/c thunderhawk & the 348 gr.powerbelt hollowpoint.I never thought of using that weight of bullet.Seems impressive.Have ever used Pyrodex powder?I'm also glad to see that alot of hunters in Michigan are using TC arms muzzleloaders.The factory is just south where I live in NH.Does anybody have any opinions on how they like their TC ML.Thanks.


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## BuckBuster

archie holst said:


> TC Omega with 28 inch stainless barell, 150 grains 777, pushing the 300 grain TC Shock Wave Sabot.


Archie,what kind of grouping are you getting with the 300 grain TC Shock Wave Sabot.Saw some in a local gun shop recently.They look neat!Has anyone else used them.They look like they would expand well.Thanks!


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## archie holst

Al B. 1 inch groups at 100 yards no rest standing with a sling. As far as expansion I don't know. I can tell you the deer I harvested had the potential of jumping the creek over to someones private property. To avoid this I aimed for the front ball joint on all three. Each one was put down instantly. The 300 grain shock wave disentegrated itself and the ball joint into mainy little pieces and pullverized the insides of the deer. No exit wounds all energy went to turning the insides to Jello. Yes theere was some wasted meat in the front shoulder but that was intentional, I did not want them taking another step or leap and they did not.


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## rzdrmh

Albert Bergeron said:


> Does anybody have any opinions on how they like their TC ML.Thanks.


Are you kidding???? After testing a number of muzzleloaders, and shouldering more, i'm convinced that the TC Omega is the definitive measuring stick for inline muzzleloaders today.

you might others that have a slight edge in certain aspects, but when considering things overall, the Omega is tough to beat.
- shoots very well
- great warranty
- easy cleanup
- zero blowback on the scope
- looks great
- etc, etc.

pure muzzleloader. now, if you could just get TC to put some of that fancy curly maple on the omega that A&H uses, i'd be in heaven.. :lol:


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## Swamp Monster

rzdrmh said:


> . now, if you could just get TC to put some of that fancy curly maple on the omega that A&H uses, i'd be in heaven.. :lol:



A quick phone call to the TC Custom shop and you might just get your answer! Just hope today is payday! 


Yeah, I don't think there is a better designed and built inline than the Omega.....the Encore is right there though.


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## DRHUNTER

ENCORE said:


> After a couple of really bad expierences with the ShockWave bullets, I switched back to Barnes bullets and haven't had an issue of ANY KIND since doing so. Also, now that Blackhorn 209 is available, there's no reason to shoot any other propellent. T/C's shoot it very well.....
> 
> Current Load: Barnes 250gr TMZ bullets - 110grs (volume) Blackhorn 209 powder - CCI209M primers. Best group out of my Pro Hunter for me so far, is three shots - 3/4" @ 150yds.
> 
> http://barnesbullets.myshopify.com/collections/spit-fire-tmztm/
> 
> http://www.blackhorn209.com/
> 
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=558416
> 
> All you'll need............


Encore what happened with the Shockwaves? We have had very good performance on deer using them in my Encore, mind elaborating?


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## frontier gander

SW's like to either Not expand and leave tiny in-out holes or they just explode in deer.


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## ENCORE

DRHUNTER said:


> Encore what happened with the Shockwaves? We have had very good performance on deer using them in my Encore, mind elaborating?


*In a nut shell....... read post #142 above this from Frontier Gander*. I made a great hit on a 160's class buck the LAST time that I used them. That buck went way further than it ever should have and made it on to an adjoining property, where an invited guest on that property claimed it. That's another story for another thread.....

I've shot hundreds, if not thousands of them here on my range or hunting. I had so many mixed results with them, it just wasn't worth shooting them, regardless how well they worked on paper. CHEAP is just that. Irregardless what a bullet costs, if it doesn't perform flawlessly EVERY TIME, its not worth me shooting. Barnes bullets don't fail and the only reason I tried the ShockWave, is that I got all caught up on the advertising hype when they first came out..... like everyone else. Best thing I ever did, was switch back to Barnes!


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## DRHUNTER

I've been considering going to the Barnes and Blackhorn because of the great reviews. I think you just confirmed my thoughts. Thanks


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## BuckBuster

I started this thread so we could all learn from each other.I think it's working...Keep it coming..


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## ENCORE

BuckBuster said:


> I started this thread so we could all learn from each other.I think it's working...Keep it coming..


Well.......... you could spend $600 to $800 on a force gage, so that you can get exact seating pressures, mic all your bullets and sabots, use the PROPER weight vs volume measure for powder and measure your powder to the 1/10th grain.....

You don't need to go that far..:lol:.... just check back in some of the old posts on the forums, and pick up bits and pieces. Keep it fun and you'll enjoy a lifetime of shooting the muzz. Make it an obsession and you'll take all the fun out of it...........


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## BuckBuster

ENCORE said:


> Well.......... you could spend $600 to $800 on a force gage, so that you can get exact seating pressures, mic all your bullets and sabots, use the PROPER weight vs volume measure for powder and measure your powder to the 1/10th grain.....
> 
> You don't need to go that far..:lol:.... just check back in some of the old posts on the forums, and pick up bits and pieces. Keep it fun and you'll enjoy a lifetime of shooting the muzz. Make it an obsession and you'll take all the fun out of it...........


Ya,you have to keep it fun.It does help to hit what you shoot at & knock it down.So if u learn something from this thread so much the better....


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## ENCORE

BuckBuster said:


> Ya,you have to keep it fun.It does help to hit what you shoot at & knock it down.So if u learn something from this thread so much the better....


Hitting what you shoot at isn't really that hard at all. Actually its pretty easy in most cases. Just takes a lot of practice. But, LEARNING is what its all about. No matter how long one's been at it, there's always a trick or something new that pops up. I've been shooting the muzz since 1977 and I always read every muzzleloader post. Maybe an 'old dog' can learn a new trick


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## kccaro

Knight Shadow Black synthetic stock with blued barrel (thinking about doing a custom camo job...)
Norinco scope (my FIL's, I'll give it back when I get around to trading my cheapy bushnell 3-9x40 onto it, before next season.

I started sighting in my gun using this combination...got it done and the two shots I took at 100 yards were within 3/4 of an inch. I called it done and good.

250 gr Hornaday SST
100gr triple se7en loose powder
Killed a doe at 18 yards, haven't gotten the opportunity to try shooting it farther than 100 yards during target practice yet, also haven't gotten the opportunity to kill any other deer than the one I killed at 18 yards.

More accurate than my H&R USH 12 ga slug gun...Maybe I should take the Nikon scope with BDC off of my USH and put it on my Knight?


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## Hodji

T/C Omega, Laminated Stock, 45 cal, 100 grains of FF Triple 7 loose, and a 275 grain powerbuilt. Great ballistic coefficiant and accuracy. Easy to load. Have killed many deer between 50 and 120 yards with this combination all 1 shot kills farthest tracking job 50 yards with a good blood trail. Don't understand why so many people use 50 cal muzzle loaders to shoot 44 cal sabotted pistol bullets from. Very poor coefficiant and penetration should be expected,


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## old graybeard

Well I was successfully shooting Power Belts up through this past season and had never had a failure or lost a deer. However after reading the horror stories on this forum and getting some great advice from Encore and a few others I have switched to Blackhorn 209 with Barnes 300gr expanders. My groups have tightened up and the cleaning chore has been reducedThis comming season I expect to see bucks tipping over at the sight of me.


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## ENCORE

old graybeard said:


> This comming season I expect to see bucks tipping over at the sight of me.


We all wish it was that simple... :lol::lol::lol:


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## ENCORE

Hodji said:


> ......... Don't understand why so many people use 50 cal muzzle loaders to shoot 44 cal sabotted pistol bullets from. Very poor coefficiant and penetration should be expected,


There's alot to be learned or, found out on these forums. Many do certain things because their friends do them or, it's what some salesman behind a counter said.

Back when sabots and saboted bullets first started being used, there were very few options. Many found that shooting bullets such as the Hornady XTP (pistol bullet) was cheap and componants were readily available. Like just about everything else, its been passed on. However, don't mis-judge the XTP (pistol bullet) and its ability to harvest deer or, at ranges far beyond 100yds. With a shooter who knows his/her rifle and practices all year long, those rounds can be just as deadly as any other.

Now, if you're wondering what a pistol bullet such as a Hornady XTP will do, here's an example of a bullet recovered from a friends deer, that entered in the front shoulder and was recovered in the hind quarter.









Here's another example of a bullet that passed completely through the rib cage of a deer and buried itself in the dirt. The deer ran off and had it not been seen dropping, one would have never known it was hit. No blood. You guess what it is........


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## Hodji

Looks like a 50 cal. aero tip powerbuilt. Also looks like a very low grain (weight) for the caliber judging by the short length. Powerbuilts have soft lead inside the copper jacket so any kind of velocity upon impact will cause them to expand. looking at the picture would lead me to beleive either it was a long shot and the diameter and short bullet coefficiant caused a big decrease in velocity, or it was underpowered comming out of the muzzle. Damp powder, or not enough powder. I have to admit the hornady bullet you pictured mushroomed nicely


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## plugger

I will be shooting a patched round ball again, out of a hawken I built.


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## ENCORE

Hodji said:


> Looks like a 50 cal. aero tip powerbuilt. Also looks like a very low grain (weight) for the caliber judging by the short length. Powerbuilts have soft lead inside the copper jacket so any kind of velocity upon impact will cause them to expand. looking at the picture would lead me to beleive either it was a long shot and the diameter and short bullet coefficiant caused a big decrease in velocity, or it was underpowered comming out of the muzzle. Damp powder, or not enough powder. I have to admit the hornady bullet you pictured mushroomed nicely


Just to verify, I just weighed it at 295grs (yup, still have that piece of JUNK). It was shot out of a Knight MK-85 using 100grs of 2f. It passed completely through a doe, standing broadside in a small valley in a picked corn field and buried itself about 8" in the dirt. Approximately 70yds. No damp powder and certainly enough.

The problem with Powerbelts is that they're JUNK. Horror story after horror story with them. The "soft lead" that you mentioned, causes them to fragment on impact or, they pass through causing an entrance hole and exit hole. Quality control on those bullets appears to be non-existent. It is without a doubt, the most inconsistent bullet for reliability on the market for muzzleloaders. Thousands of shooters have tried them, only to lose animals that shouldn't have been lost. Would have what they THOUGHT was good accuracy, only to find out, that for some unknow reason, they started shooting all over the place and would never group again.

I've shot the muzzleloader almost exclusively since 1977 and tens of thousands of rounds. Without a doubt, its the most unpretictable and untrustworthy bullet of any that I've shot. What amaizes the the most, is that with the thousands of horror stories written all over the internet forums, people still continue to shoot a bullet that has proven itself unreliable. Others think that just because a package of five of them came with their rifle, that the manufacturer of the rifle states that "they're the best". But what they should know, is that the Powerbelt 5 pack of bullets provided are provided to the manufacturer of the rifle for free as great marketing on Powerbelt's part. It in NO WAY means that the powerbelt is the best shooting bullet for that brand of rifle.

Pounding paper is just that. I've done it for 50 years. How a bullet preforms CONSISTENTLY, with RELIABLE AND REPEATED CONSISTENCY is what makes a good hunting bullet. Not paper pounding. WAY TO MANY HORROR STORIES.......... I'd rather shoot a round ball, at least then I'd know what it was going to do!


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## ENCORE

Here's an example of a reliable and consistent hunting bullet..


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## frontier gander

225gr powerbelt .45 recovered from a doe i shot at 80 yards and dumped the bullet directly though the center of the shoulder.

















She went 5 yards leaving a nice blood trail,
























exit,









Another doe shot around 100 yards with a 348gr custom filled powerbelt, 100gr pyrodex rs.
exit hole








Entrance








Lungs,









Ive only been able to recover one powerbelt and that was the first one i posted above.


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## Hodji

Encore,
Thanks for sharing your experience with powerbuilts. It is an eye opener to me. I know several people who use them all with good results and accuracy. I have a couple recovered powerbuilt bullets from deer I shot quartering away. I found them under the skin on the oposite sholder while skinning them. Both of them mushroomed very nicely, similar to the one Frontier Gander posted above. It would be hard for me to change something that has been working, but do you have a recommended load for a 45 cal muzzle loader. Is the Blackhorn 209 powder really worth the $$? I have a can and a half left of triple 7. The only down side to it seems to be the crud ring it leaves after every shot. I found if I swab the barrel between shots It works great.


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## ENCORE

Hodji said:


> Encore,
> ......... Is the Blackhorn 209 powder really worth the $$? I have a can and a half left of triple 7. The only down side to it seems to be the crud ring it leaves after every shot. I found if I swab the barrel between shots It works great.


Check the forums from last fall. I think that UPTracker posted a compairsion of the different propellents, shots/cost. Very good work.

I've shot it all. I gave 2 1/2 bottles of T7 away and any pellets. Pyrodex is gone except for a couple 30gr pellets laying around, and I have a couple cans of 2-f readily available on the bench.

I shot BH209 exclusively and won't waste money on the other propellents. Once you learn to work with it, you'll wonder why you didn't switch earlier. Read some of the compairisons on the Blackhorn209 website. I've found them all to be accurate.


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