# A Challenge to all Opponents of A/Rs



## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

I might not be reading this right but what Adam asked what is the BENEFITS of having a 5.5 over a 2.5 year old? BSK you gave us the function and what might happend in herd behavior. Maybe better asked is: what is so beneficial/what are the benefits in having, _dominance status and the acquisition of dominance status are major driving forces in herd behavior and function._. We know the role a mature buck/heavier buck will have but why is that so beneficial(making it a healthier herd)?


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Hmmm... This is going to be tough one. I'm just now realizing many readers of this forum are not up on what "herd dynamics" is. And that explains much of the vehemence between traditionalists and QDMers on this site, and why so many claim QDM is about "trophy" bucks. If you don't realize the critical role mature bucks play in how a herd performs, then of course you're going to think having older, bigger bucks is simply for the harvest opportunity for hunters.

QDM has nothing to do with trophy bucks. It has everything to do with returning deer herds to more natural herd structures. As more and more is learned about "how deer herds work," it is being found that deer have an amazingly complex social arrangement, and who is in the herd (herd structure) actually changes the biology of the herd members. One aspect of a natural herd structure is having a significant portion of the male population in the older age-classes. And this is not for the benefit of hunters. QDM does not promote an older buck age structure to produce larger bucks for hunters to hunt. It promotes an older buck age structure because older bucks produce powerful influences on the entire herd, and that is what "herd dynamics" is all about...

Unfortunately, herd dynamics is a _massive_ topic, far beyond what I have time and space to describe. Entire books have been written on the topic and they don't even cover it in finite detail. There is far more to herd performance than just what deer have to eat. Who is in the herd plays a major role. How many of each sex deer are there in the adult population, what ages are the deer of both sexes, what percent of each sex is in each age-class; etc. All these factors actually effect the health, growth, genetic expression, breeding success, breeding timing, and numerous other factors of the entire herd.

Let me see if I can put together a "nutshell" description of the role older and more mature bucks play in herd dynamics. That might explain a few concepts we QDMers have been pushing.


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

"QDM has nothing to do with trophy bucks. It has everything to do with returning deer herds to more natural herd structures."

IMHO anytime someone makes that claim about QDM. it hurts their credibility. For that statement to be credible , QDM hunters would have to pass on the biggest older buck in order to really improve the age structure and allow the biggest superior buck to do most of the breeding over the longest period of time..

Furthermore . as yet , I haven't seen a study that proves quanatatively that improving the buck age structure improves the overall health of the herd or improves the genetics. PA and many other states have been harvesting 75% of their 1.5 buck for over 50 years and no study has shown that the PA herd was unhealthy or had poor genetics. Even though our herd was supposedly 50% above the MSY carrying capacity ,90% of our adult doe were being bred along with 25 - 50% of the female fawns. Winterkills were low , the number of 2.5+ buck being harvested was increasing and total harvest were also increasing.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

I see the point ,we should protect the older bucks. Harvesting bucks 3.5 yrs and over should be avoided.


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## Bwana (Sep 28, 2004)

Happy HunterIMHO anytime someone makes that claim about QDM. it hurts their credibility.[/QUOTE said:


> Happy, this thread was started to comment on ideas to improve the herd's buck age structure, not comment on the credability of others. Please keep on topic.


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

Bwana said:


> Happy, this thread was started to comment on ideas to improve the herd's buck age structure, not comment on the credability of others. Please keep on topic.



Maybe you should direct your comment to BSK who said QDMAwas not about trophy buck.

In my post ,I addressed the issued of improving the buck age structure and pointed out the best way to do it was for hunters to pass on the biggest older buck with the best genetic potential,while harvesting smaller inferior buck.

There is no biologically based reason that supports removing the superior ,older buck,while protecting younger inferior buck. If the intent of QDMA was to replicate a natural herd controled by predators , then the goal would be to remove the smaller inferior buck, not the dominant mature buck.


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## Bwana (Sep 28, 2004)

Happy Hunter said:


> Maybe you should direct your comment to BSK who said QDMAwas not about trophy buck.


I didn't direct any comments at BSK because BSK made a statement. He, unlike you, didn't question anyones credibility. This thread has remained open as long as it has because it has remained civil and impersonal. If you have any issues with me that you wish to discuss feel free to send me a PM.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

On my own property I made a decision to at least implement a type of slot limit, older bucks walk. There are are no guarantees if I see the next rompala buck but my resolve is to leave the big guys alone. I am fortunate to own a bit of land and enough equipment to plant 20+ acres of food plots. These factors let me hold and see some of the larger bucks in the area, year round. I would rather see a big buck in my woods than on my wall. Everyone makes their own decisions and within the frame work of the law, its all good.


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

My post was not directed at BSK specifically. It was directed at all QDM supporters that claim bigger rack bucks are not one of the main goals of QDM. IMHO. Very few hunters would spend big $'s to belong to a QDM lease or club if the goal was to improve the age structure and health of the herd by protecting bucks that are 2.5 + and have 8 or more points.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Tough issue indeed I beleive there are those out there that are really interested in the herd health and making the "herd" better that say they are into QDM I also beleive there are those who say they are into QDM because they want to shoot big bucks. Both say they are into QDM But they are into it for different reasons. Northjeff hunts that private QDM property every year where the best bucks are left to walk and those who are declining are takien out, I say there is true QDM as the healthiest deer are left to determine the pecking order and they are the ones who will compete for the breeding. To plant foodplots do habitat improvement and try to get a healthy buck to doe ratio at or below carrying capacity is what QDM is as I understand it. Seeing and possibly harvesting larger bucks is simply a result or by-product if you will of the process. If I am incorrect please let me know because that is how I understand the whole deal :tdo12: 

AW


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

BSK, again I do not want the ROLE of a mature buck(I already know that) I want the benefit having a 5.5 year old over a 2.5 year old has on the health of the herd?? 

Plugger - maybe QDMA should try passing your rules with its membership and see how far they get. Makes alot more sense to me to manage deer that way but that doesn't sell memberships!! Nicely put as well - _"""Everyone makes their own decisions and within the frame work of the law, its all good""""_

_"""QDM has nothing to do with trophy bucks. It has everything to do with returning deer herds to more natural herd structures. As more and more is learned about "how deer herds work," it is being found that deer have an amazingly complex social arrangement, and who is in the herd (herd structure) actually changes the biology of the herd members. One aspect of a natural herd structure is having a significant portion of the male population in the older age-classes. And this is not for the benefit of hunters. QDM does not promote an older buck age structure to produce larger bucks for hunters to hunt. It promotes an older buck age structure because older bucks produce powerful influences on the entire herd, and that is what "herd dynamics" is all about...""""""" _ Baffle them with bullsh$t, confuse them confidence....


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

to check in on this thread over the weekend - but, it seems to have lost it's way - 

Bawana what do you think?

ferg....


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Its alright it is a debate lets settle down guys. I am liking this thread give it another shot FERG please.

AW


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## Bwana (Sep 28, 2004)

Ferg said:


> to check in on this thread over the weekend - but, it seems to have lost it's way -
> 
> Bawana what do you think?
> 
> ferg....


Ferg, we managed to discuss an explosive topic with little or no personal attacks. I guess that's something. I don't think we resolved anything towards the debate about A/R's or found an effective alternative but some good ideals were presented by some. If both sides can continue to talk in a civil manner maybe we can get somthing rolling on this issue. 

As for the thread Ferg, I think the thread served its purpose. If you want to shut it down I support that decision.


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