# Beads, squirmy wormys, etc on flies only sections



## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

I've found a few threads on here with more than one person suggesting that using things like beads for egg patterns and squirmy wormys to tie san juans is illegal on flies only sections in Michigan. I checked the regs and don't see that anywhere. You obviosly can't make an egg pattern with a Berkley gulp or a san juan with some scented soft bait, cause scented is illegal, but otherwise I don't see why flies made of beads or squirmy wormy material would be illegal. 

If it is true, can anybody point me to anything that indicates using these materials is not legal on flies only sections? 

Thanks!


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

From the regs, underscore mine: Artificial Flies: Any commonly accepted single hook wet and dry flies, streamers and nymphs without spinner, spoon, scoop, lip or any other fishing lure or bait attached. The fly or leader may be weighted, but no weight shall be attached to the fly or to the terminal tackle in a manner that allows the weight to be suspended from or below the hook.

I will leave it at that.


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## 1flyguy (Dec 6, 2018)

REG said:


> From the regs, underscore mine: Artificial Flies: Any commonly accepted single hook wet and dry flies, streamers and nymphs without spinner, spoon, scoop, lip or any other fishing lure or bait attached. The fly or leader may be weighted, but no weight shall be attached to the fly or to the terminal tackle in a manner that allows the weight to be suspended from or below the hook.
> 
> I will leave it at that.


Kelly Galloup (formerly from the Troutsman in Traverse City) teaches the use of a drop shot method of nymph fishing (you can watch on you tube) that places the split shot on the leader below the last nymph. Does anyone think this method would not be legal on fly only water in Michigan?


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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)

Lamarsh said:


> If it is true, can anybody point me to anything that indicates using these materials is not legal on flies only sections?


From a thread circa 2014: Even though it was posted on April 1st, I don't think it was an April fools prank.



M. Tonello said:


> FYI- Just wanted to post on here regarding a question we've been getting lately. Beads or plastic eggs of any kind are NOT considered flies and are therefore NOT legal to use in any Flies-Only stream reach.
> 
> They are legal to use in any non-gear restricted water or any artificials-only water, but not in Flies Only water. Feel free to spread the word- we've been hearing about this issue a lot lately, especially in the Flies-Only reach of the Pere Marquette. Thanks...


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

REG said:


> From the regs, underscore mine: Artificial Flies: Any commonly accepted single hook wet and dry flies, streamers and nymphs without spinner, spoon, scoop, lip or any other fishing lure or bait attached. The fly or leader may be weighted, but no weight shall be attached to the fly or to the terminal tackle in a manner that allows the weight to be suspended from or below the hook.
> 
> I will leave it at that.


Ok, it sounds like it's legal then, or at best not well enough spelled out to nail somebody on. The language about a fishing lure or bait attached I think introduces some questionable vagueness. 



PunyTrout said:


> From a thread circa 2014: Even though it was posted on April 1st, I don't think it was an April fools prank.


I didn't see that thread--the main thread I got this from was about egg patterns, and somebody said something about the effectiveness of beads in lieu of yarn, and after that it spun off in to several people opining that beads were not legal on flies only sections.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

I polled around and called several fly shops to see what they thought. A few said they didn't think it was illegal at all, most said they weren't sure but that it wouldn't be something they'd use due to possible confusion and violation of the reg, but none of them said outright they knew it was illegal. I did speak to one DNR fisheries biologist who said his opinion on it is that eggs tied with beads and san juans tied with squirmy wormys are _not_ legal to use on flies only sections. He said the squirmy wormy on a fly hook isn't much different than tying an unscented bass soft bait like a twister tail on a hook. 

I personally think the reg is vague enough to make an argument that you should at least not be ticketed, but I wouldn't want to even be faced with the dilemma of having to argue with anybody about it, better to just keep them in a separate box for other sections of the river. 

I think the biggest point of confusion in the reg is the fact that they spell out things that are not allowed to be on the fly, like spinners and spoons, but don't say anything about beads and such, so some people take that as if they wanted it to not be allowed they would have said so. Wouldn't be the first poorly worded Mich DNR reg!


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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)

Lamarsh said:


> Wouldn't be the first poorly worded Mich DNR reg!


Don't get me started on the definition of artificial flies.

The bottom line is beads and rubber worms are *not legal* in flies only water.

It doesn't really make sense or stand up to much scrutiny but that's the way it is.


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## mfs686 (Mar 15, 2007)

Next comes a post about "doing away with flies only water would cure all these issues" in 4,3,2........


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

1flyguy said:


> Kelly Galloup (formerly from the Troutsman in Traverse City) teaches the use of a drop shot method of nymph fishing (you can watch on you tube) that places the split shot on the leader below the last nymph. Does anyone think this method would not be legal on fly only water in Michigan?


Me. Regulations read clearly this is not legal.


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## OH-YEAH!!! (Jun 18, 2009)

mfs686 said:


> Next comes a post about "doing away with flies only water would cure all these issues" in 4,3,2........


The flies only water is very important to direct sports from Chicago, etc. to the PM and AuSable as they drive past the locals’ spots.


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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)

I'm giving serious consideration to moving this thread into the *Gear Restrictions and Trout Fishing Regs *forum. 

Hopefully the OP's question has been answered fully to his satisfaction and we can let this thread fall down the list from here.


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## 1flyguy (Dec 6, 2018)

PunyTrout said:


> I'm giving serious consideration to moving this thread into the *Gear Restrictions and Trout Fishing Regs *forum.
> 
> Hopefully the OP's question has been answered fully to his satisfaction and we can let this thread fall down the list from here.


I’m good. Let this end here.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

REG said:


> Regulations read clearly this is not legal.


Can you please explain what part of this reg so clearly excludes tying a san juan worm using a rubber string shaped material rather than artificial string shaped chenille? I think the reg is clear enough that you can't tie a berkely power grub to a fly, as that is clearly already a lure before being tied on, but what do you see in the current reg that differentiates between tying a san juan with squirmy wormy material as opposed to artificial ultra chenille? That is my main point of confusion.

Is there another reg or portion of the rules that explains this better that I am missing?



PunyTrout said:


> Hopefully the OP's question has been answered fully to his satisfaction and we can let this thread fall down the list from here.


PT, it's been answered, thank you bro. But I will say, just for the sake of discussion and beating dead horses, if I was a well intended guy out on the flies only section who had only read the reg and hadn't discussed it with a DNR guy and other people like you guys, and ended getting nipped for it by a CO, I'd be pretty confused and ticked off. I read and interpret statutory language for a living, and I will say that the way the reg is worded leaves too much of this up in the air (which I think you acknowledged). My point is, if the DNR really doesn't want this material used like this in the flies only waters, then the reg is poorly worded and should be changed so guys thinking critically about it, like us, aren't the only guys having to abide by the rule. Just judging by the fact that numerous fly shops I called opined that both bead eggs and squirmy wormys are permissible to use on flies in flies only sections is enough evidence there is a problem. My brother isn't an avid fly fisherman and was up on the PM fly fishing a few weeks ago, stopped in and geared up with flies at a local shop because he doesn't tie, his purchase included a bunch of san juan worms tied with squirmy wormys, and that happened to be the fly they did the best with. I didn't even know what a squirmy wormy was until he came home and showed me the flies they did well on, and that's when I got to wondering whether these flies fit in the reg, which got me to digging around the forums, bringing me to make this thread.

If they don't want beads being used for eggs and squirmy wormys used for san juans, and if they can carve out explicit exclusions for spinners and spoons attached to flies, they should do the same for these materials so it's more clear.

Another way to deduce the current reg to an absurdity is to ask why exclude rubber worm material and not artificial chenille? Unfixed to a hook, both resemble a worm in the same way and shape, they're just made out of different materials, yet the reg says nothing about rubber being unacceptable and chenille being ok. What is it about rubbery stuffs that is disallowed that is different from chenille? Does it matter? Why? The reg leaves all this in the air. One difference with bead eggs that I can wrap my hands around is the fact that on one hand, while a hard bead already resembles an egg before being fixed to a hook, on the other hand, yarn that we tie yarn eggs with do not resemble an egg before we get to crafting the fly. To me, that is an easier thing to wrap my head around.

Unless we're to all tie flies traditionally with only truly natural materials, this becomes a deep hole. If the DNR wants this stuff away from flies only sections, IMO they need to carve it out explicitly.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

Lamarsh said:


> Can you please explain what part of this reg so clearly excludes tying a san juan worm using a rubber string shaped material rather than artificial string shaped chenille? I think the reg is clear enough that you can't tie a berkely power grub to a fly, as that is clearly already a lure before being tied on, but what do you see in the current reg that differentiates between tying a san juan with squirmy wormy material as opposed to artificial ultra chenille? That is my main point of confusion.
> 
> Is there another reg or portion of the rules that explains this better that I am missing?
> .


Not that I am aware of. I am not about to explain it, as I would think that in certain arenas this could be challenged. By your example, same could be said about jigs vs bead head flies tied in identical patterns, or how an epoxy egg could ever be considered a fly. My guess it would fall back to "commonly accepted", which IMHO is vague. Not my rules, I just fish elsewhere.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

PunyTrout said:


> I'm giving serious consideration to moving this thread into the *Gear Restrictions and Trout Fishing Regs *forum.
> 
> Hopefully the OP's question has been answered fully to his satisfaction and we can let this thread fall down the list from here.


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## brushbuster (Nov 9, 2009)

Weird that it would be illegal since a bead head nymph is ok. Strange. so if a egg sucking leach has a plastic bead for the head would that be illegal?


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

brushbuster said:


> Weird that it would be illegal since a bead head nymph is ok. Strange. so if a egg sucking leach has a plastic bead for the head would that be illegal?


IMO, certainly not, and nor does it seem to me that a san juan worm tied with squirmy wormy FLY TYING MATERIAL is illegal in flies only. That stuff isn't made for anything but tying flies. Contrary to what some people like to analogize it to, it's not the same as simply hooking on a Berkley power grub onto a hook. To me, the distinction is clear. For one, squirmy wormy does have to be tied on, and it's not the easiest stuff to even work with to get onto a fly easily (at least for me, a slack fly tier).


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

Who the heck knows anymore. Some of those articulated streamers are full of all kinds of material and gigantic hooks. But those are”flies”


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## 1flyguy (Dec 6, 2018)

Nope, they are not flies, they are baitfish imitations but we all use them!


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## Vicious Fishous (Sep 12, 2006)

We are over thinking this because we obviously care about the regulations. From a past experience, I interpret that a bead or a squirmy wormy can be used if actually tied to the hook. But not if pegged to the line above a bare hook or glued on. I got checked a long time ago on the flies only section and was questioned by a CO for what I had on. I just started tying flies, and was pretty proud of my work. It was unscented rubber otter egg glued onto a hook shank over a thread base with some egg veil around it. Everything was bought at a “fly shop” He said it was almost not a “fly”, but the fact I had some thread and veil around it made it legal. Had I just glued a bead to a hook, I might have had a problem. 
I use some old lab/chow dog hair for dubbing, makes great stone fly bodies. That dog smelled like old Cheetos. I don’t know if that’s why those stone flies catch so many fish, Or if I just make good flies. So, do I get busted because my flies are naturally scented like old Cheeto dog? At least they don’t turn your fingers greasy orange. Too many rules to enjoy nature....


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