# The Spaniel Corner



## gundogguy

N M Mechanical said:


> I agree on hunting is not training and in my eye it was decent work not great work but not bad work I was *just wanting to know if the poster of the video thought that was great work or just showing a video of what the breed can do*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing great at all just a very generic type retrieve with factors (land -water - land)

Now if you want to see premier working springer check it out..


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## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> In a recent thread about Brittany's the question was raised as to the differences between Cockers and Springers. For those willing let's explore the possibilities.
> As flushing retrieveing dogs they will have several similar characteristics, especially considering that the two different and distinct breeds came from the same sire and dam, a little over a hundred years ago.
> 1. Drive strength of quest,quartering style
> 2. Nose, bird finding ability
> 3. courage in the face of heavy cover
> 4. Strength of flush,boldness
> 5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
> 
> *Drive* as ilustrated in short Video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x8lU3dekso&feature=youtu.be


 
And to give the little "lions" their do a short vid of the 2012 UK championship won by Fatty for the 2 yr repeat..

what's not to like!!!!


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## dauber

I just love that "snappy" pickup and merry retrieve. I have it in the older dog real well, the younger one does it too except he has been getting tentative I believe from the blind work we have been doing. I have suspended the blind work for now and he is getting it back. This is one of the differences between cockers and springers, my cockers don't respond well to more than a few repetitions before they mess up.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Hal,

Thanks for posting this years vid of that little brown buzzbomb winning the CH again. This years vid showed the groundwork a bit better I thought. She personifies the word "merry".

Put her down in the grouse woods over here and she'd make the brown feathers fly!

NB


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## michgundog

N M Mechanical said:


> Was this a video of a good retrieve? 7 whistles other veriable commands then walk over to the dog to take the bird. Again was that a video of a good job?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Besides the fact the guy was using the wrong whistle, it looks like his feet stayed dry. The spaniel looks like a keeper to me.

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## gundogguy

Remember this thread is about the differences of the two breeds, not which is better. The video's offered are going to be nothing more than examples of work some excellent some poor. 
For example, here is a poor video of a springer and his owner, this is a real goat rodeo.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Remember this thread is about the differences of the two breeds, not which is better. The video's offered are going to be nothing more than examples of work some excellent some poor.
> For example, here is a poor video of a springer and his owner, this is a real goat rodeo.
> 
> Lady Heather of Greenbriar Pheasant Hunting Opening Day English Springer Spaniel - YouTube


If that's the case I'll take FTCH Buccleuch Pepper. That vid is awesome!! 

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## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> If that's the case I'll take FTCH Buccleuch Pepper. That vid is awesome!!


1+ 

Thats _egggzzzzactly_ how its done!

NB


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## gundogguy

Another brillant video of the springer championships. Agreat look at some outstanding honor work by bracemates,spaniels running a proper brace. Amatuer breed,owned and trained and handled.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Ei-EJQM9U&feature=relmfu"]FTCh Doncaster Star - Winner of 2012 English Springer Spaniel Championship - YouTube[/ame]


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## Steelheadfred

If I'm nit picking, the dog dropped the first retrieve, was over handled, and makes an inside dig on the turn when quartering.

If I'm nit picking also, it seems the dog was commanded steady, not steady on it's own merrit.

If I'm nit picking.


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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> If I'm nit picking, the dog dropped the first retrieve, was over handled, and makes an inside dig on the turn when quartering.
> If I'm nit picking also, it seems the dog was commanded steady, not steady on it's own merrit.
> If I'm nit picking.


This is a trial. If a bird is put up by the rather large group following you are done, so as a handler you make darned sure everything is covered. The dropped bird was a runner and she did an excellent job getting on it quickly, probably had to re-adjust the hold. I figured the inside turn was because the course was downwind or quartering down at that time. As for the command steady he was blowing the whistle quickly to make sure she was steady, good handling. 

The bracemate did an excellent job too staying with the dog running right by. I'd say she is a keeper, but I'm not that picky.


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## Duece22

dauber said:


> This is a trial. If a bird is put up by the rather large group following you are done, so as a handler you make darned sure everything is covered. The dropped bird was a runner and she did an excellent job getting on it quickly, probably had to re-adjust the hold. I figured the inside turn was because the course was downwind or quartering down at that time. As for the command steady he was blowing the whistle quickly to make sure she was steady, good handling.
> 
> The bracemate did an excellent job too staying with the dog running right by. I'd say she is a keeper, but I'm not that picky.


I understand it's a trial but that amount of whistling would drive me NUTS hunting. 


RH


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## dauber

Duece22 said:


> I understand it's a trial but that amount of whistling would drive me NUTS hunting.
> RH


Me too! I can't even understand what all the whistle commands are in a trial here in the US or on the other side of the pond. Must be why I am just a hunter.


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## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> Nice video. That is a good example of drive with a high level of control too. That is an interesting little drill that would work well in the back yard.
> 
> 
> 
> From my perspective having owned 3 FBECS and maybe looking at getting a FBESS in the near future, in "general" there aren't a lot of differences between them other than size. In general I think FBESS's mark better but between the best of both there is very little difference. As in labs I think you can choose the "line" that suits your hunting stlye best with the FBESS just because there are many more litters available each year. I agree with Michgundog that the British lines are a little softer and often have a softer flush, but purely for grouse/woodock a soft flush can be benificial, on pheasants it is not. Another thing to consider is that most all FBECS are still very close to British lines since they have mostly come onto the American scene mostly in the last 20 years. Now that you and I are completely confused I would recommend doing your diligent homework on the breeding of which ever one you like the best.
> Climbing back off Mike's limb,
> Steve


I can vouch for ESS marking. Not as fast on the run as some of those long legged labs but front footing the marks got us past the first of two time cut offs. Even with the fact she took a dump on the way back during the first mark. :lol:





 









[ame="http://s399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/Cherry_pics/Hunting%20Videos/?action=view&current=20120226_140311_Trimmed.mp4"]Hunting Videos :: 20120226_140311_Trimmed.mp4 video by Cherry_pics - Photobucket[/ame]

If I think there maybe a chance of a break I would use a sit whistle. Especially if the dog was on a running bird. Now at a Master Hunt test I won't use a sit whistle or a come around whistle unless I absolutely need to. I will indicate direction to the dog by an outstreched arm. Some days the dog won't need any whistles at all other days they push the limits.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Me too! I can't even understand what all the whistle commands are in a trial here in the US or on the other side of the pond. Must be why I am just a hunter.


Steve, it appears the handler maybe reinforcing the commands with the whistle. Probably using it more for his insurance plan so he can get through the trial. I noticed more importantly his handling; as far as moving the dog up the beat and not covering the same ground twice. He also, kept a short distance between himself and the dog to keep his presence on the dog which helps enforce the steadiness. I'll agree in hunting situation the whistling would be a little much. I'll have to do some more shagging this year to make a comparison as far as handlers here are concerned. 

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## Steelheadfred

I think I like the springers in the videos more than the cockers, that said when and if I ever get a spaniel, it'll be a cocker.

Doug, I was thinking of Brandy when I made my nit picking comments. She seems she would do well against those brit dogs across the pond.

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## I'm with Brandy

Steelheadfred said:


> I think I like the springers in the videos more than the cockers, that said when and if I ever get a spaniel, it'll be a cocker.
> 
> Doug, I was thinking of Brandy when I made my nit picking comments. She seems she would do well against those brit dogs across the pond.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 
I got the chance to run Brandy with David Lissett. He gave us some compliments the big ones that stood out to me, He was impressed with her marking ability and steadyiness. He did want to see her quarter closer. Which was a little to tight for me. He had us quarter the field and then threw out a tripple mark and then told us what order he wanted them picked up with a remote send. M2 picked up first, then M3 followed by M1. 

What is it about the cocker that you like Fritz?


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## Steelheadfred

Doug, 

I think they are about as turn key as any bird dog I've seen, they are merry little dogs, but for me they would be a tool for certain covers, not an everyday every cover dog. And I would desire as big of a male as I could find. 

I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but I think the springers and performance labs are stronger and tuffer than the cockers, and more versatile. But, I guess in the end I'm drawn to the cocker personality. Also there does not seem to be as wide a variance in cocker ability and personality (advantages and disadvantages) as with springers and labs. I've hunted wild birds over, 5 cockers in mi, and two in sodak, 4 different lines, yet they all had more in common than different, in personality and performamce, even though they had different training levels. Rumor has it I might be getting my hands on a pup for a friend for a couple months this fall, a female.

If I was a one dog owner and wanted a spaniel, I'd get a springer.

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## I'm with Brandy

Steelheadfred said:


> Doug,
> 
> I think they are about as turn key as any bird dog I've seen, they are merry little dogs, but for me they would be a tool for certain covers, not an everyday every cover dog. And I would desire as big of a male as I could find.
> 
> I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but I think the springers and performance labs are stronger and tuffer than the cockers, and more versatile. But, I guess in the end I'm drawn to the cocker personality. Also there does not seem to be as wide a variance in cocker ability and personality (advantages and disadvantages) as with springers and labs. I've hunted wild birds over, 5 cockers in mi, and two in sodak, 4 different lines, yet they all had more in common than different, in personality and performamce, even though they had different training levels. Rumor has it I might be getting my hands on a pup for a friend for a couple months this fall, a female.
> 
> If I was a one dog owner and wanted a spaniel, I'd get a springer.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


If you ever go to WI you should take in an AKC hunt test. They run a lot of field spaniels in WI. 










Becarefull once you go spaniel you may never go back.


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## Duece22

I'm with Brandy said:


> Becarefull once you go spaniel you may never come back.


If he goes spaniel, I'll never let him come back  


RH


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> If I'm nit picking, the dog dropped the first retrieve, was over handled, and *makes an inside dig on the turn when quartering.*
> 
> If I'm nit picking also, it seems the dog was commanded steady,_not steady on it's own merrit._
> 
> If I'm nit picking.


Concerning the direction of the turn What direction is the wind blowing?
That will determine if the turn or "dig" whould be inside or outside.


"Not steady on it's own merits" That would be assuming that dogs are born with that information. Steadiness is one of those little annoying behaviors that we humans demand of class dogs with high standards.

The hunt types will never understand the merits of dogs under judgment. Primarliy because they have no experience in developing behaviors in a dog at high levels.
So it is always the benign mechanics that get demonized, by the unexperienced.

This thread is not what is better, moreover it is about the differences between Cockers and Springers. 

Great Video of Brandy I was about to post on the subject of Marking
Thanks Doug for joining in.

Speaking of Field Spaniels, Karen Balinsky made Master hunter with her Paige dog earlier this month.


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## Steelheadfred

Hey Doug, no matter what I promise it'll be Lab,ECS, ESS, Pointer or ES. In terms of performance you could add GSP and Brits. Why screw with simple functions of economics?

Hal,

Us hunt types, thanks.

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## NATTY BUMPO

I'm with Brandy said:


> I got the chance to run Brandy with David Lissett. He gave us some compliments the big ones that stood out to me, He was impressed with her marking ability and steadyiness. He did want to see her quarter closer. Which was a little to tight for me. He had us quarter the field and then threw out a tripple mark and then told us what order he wanted them picked up with a remote send. M2 picked up first, then M3 followed by M1.


Thanks for posting the SS vid, Doug. Brandy sure looked good, very flashy mover. And thats high praise from DL, a much noted trainer/ judge. 

Good stuff, all around.

NB


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## JAM

Nice videos. Great job Brandy! Very nice.


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## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Hey Doug, no matter what I promise it'll be Lab,ECS, ESS, Pointer or ES. In terms of performance you could add GSP and Brits.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Fritz, so I'm assuming the suggestion of a field spaniel is a no?? I think Doug and you should both buy one. They are nice dogs, if your interested in one contact; Jeff Schwartz at Rock River Kennel in WI. He's not a field spaniel breeder, but the group in WI who own them train at his place. Also, when you buy your ESS, Jeff is a good choice for a breeder of springer pups.

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## Steelheadfred

Mike,


There is a reason Springers, Cockers, Labs, Pointers, Setters, Brits, and GSP's dominate the trial, test, and hunting worlds.....)


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## gundogguy




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## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> Pheasant Kill - YouTube


Appears to be a preserve and a dropped retrieve. What is this video supposed to show? 


RH


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## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Mike,
> 
> 
> There is a reason Springers, Cockers, Labs, Pointers, Setters, Brits, and GSP's dominate the trial, test, and hunting worlds.....)


Good point! 

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## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> Appears to be a preserve and a dropped retrieve. What is this video supposed to show?
> 
> 
> RH


Does it make a difference on the retrieve if it is a wild bird or preserve bird? Do we think that the retrieve would not have been dropped if it was a wild bird? 

The vid was another example of spaniel style. Granted a 14 month old puppie.
I think the more astute question would be, why would someone put a young spaniel in a situation with shot roosters? -- Without completeing the trained retrieve process


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## gundogguy

Developing focus and a working attitude!


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## Steelheadfred

Hal,

Here is what I think, I think Cockers are the perfect dog for the casual bird hunter, the guy that hunts Grouse and WC a dozen days a year, maybe a trip west every other year for roosters. I also think they are a perfect tool for a very serious hunter that wants to pair the dog with another breed or a bracemate.

The casual hunter, the cockers I've been around have a very natural range, ie they hunt in gun range, get them bird broke, some basic yard work and retrieving work, gun broke and a cocker is going to be more help than hurt on those 12-18 hunts a year, plus be a model citizen around the house and with kids. 

I believe they are growing in popularity because of what I said above.



> I think the more astute question would be, why would someone put a young spaniel in a situation with shot roosters? -- Without completeing the trained retrieve process


My guess is, because not everyone likes Dog training, a turn key cocker seems to be a nice choice for those folks. Some folks live in the city, have little kids, two careers, what they want is a dog that is more help than hurt on a hunt. They might not have the resources or the time to have it trained to a finished level, but they still desire to have a dog as part of their life and their kids life. 

The style of Lab I own, and many of the springers I've seen are too much dog for these kinds of folks. They want a grab a dog when they get a day and a half and head north. They don't want to deal with a dog out of gun range, and if the dog finds birds in gun ranges and brings em to hand, well that will make lots of folks happy, they could care less if the dog drops the bird, they are just happy it made a retrieve with very little "training." They are happy the dog wants to be with them, not where it wants to find birds for itself, they are happy when birds are not being blown out at 60 yards.

Again, the biggest difference I see in Cockers is they have a bit different head than some of the springers, depending on who you are, and what you desire this could be a very positive aspect or a negative aspect.

There is no one dog, despite what the pointing lab folks say:lol:, that can do it all for everyone.




> Does it make a difference on the retrieve if it is a wild bird or preserve bird? Do we think that the retrieve would not have been dropped if it was a wild bird?


Retrieving wild birds in wild places is far different than retrieving planted birds, planted birds are found in manicured landscapes, die far easier, don't have the survival skills of wild birds. The marking is generally easier, the bird falls generally far closer to the dog, they fly slower.

But to your point, some dogs that don't retrieve lots of planted birds will have different mouth manners, a wild bird is far cleaner, is not covered in dust and dirt and have human and poop smell all over it. But as you said, properly trained to retrieve, each should be delivered to hand without a drop.


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## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> (100_5682.) Working Cocker Spaniel - YouTube
> 
> Developing focus and a working attitude!


Hal,

If you were going to "Nit Pick" what do you think of the work that black dog is doing?


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Hal,
> 
> If you were going to "Nit Pick" what do you think of the work that black dog is doing?


I never "nit pick", i use flea powder.
The black dog is a a good example of a well mannered UK trained spaniel. As is the springer following behind, honoring the work of the cocker.
Both dogs are good employees.

They were not born that way so some had to make them that way. How many months were involved to make them both "turn key"...Remember no ecollar or check cord were involved in the training process.


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## Steelheadfred

Is that black dog displaying typical desired range of a UK dog?

Do you like the range displayed?
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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> *Is that black dog displaying typical desired range of a UK dog?*
> YES, for the training purposes. Not to worry when the black dog learns about the power of the gun it will open up its coverage of the ground. But when it does the owner handler will have the tools in place to keep the dog working for him and not it's self. Self hunting not allow for the flushing dog
> 
> *Do you like the range displayed*? As stated earlier the dog will open up on game and gun fire. The black dog is very proper. A hunter would never have to run after to catch up with this dog and take an off balanced shot at a wide flushed bird or rabbit
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Here is a actual rough shoot 01/2010
Two cockers a couple guns having a fine day afield, these are different dogs though their behavior and attudes are very similar..that comes from training
a little less than 8 minutes long really good stuff


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## Grouse Seeker

I've never hunted with either breed of spaniel. The birds in the video's seem to hold tight. What is the dog supposed to do on a running grouse or pheasant? They seem like such close working dogs, will the dog follow the bird and give the hunter a shot. Just curious how the flushing dog thing works. Thanks.


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## Steelheadfred

Depends on how good they handle birds and in which manner, there is nothing to handling planted birds. Handling running birds takes contacts, experience and team work, best developed through giving a dog its head and allowing it to learn, being selective in what you shoot for a few years, and having a dog learn how hard, from which direction to push a runner, till that bird is cornered into a mistake.

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## Steelheadfred

If you have goos genetics and a driven dog, you can place would bird handling developement ahead of controls and be further ahead down the road, have an exciting, driven bird finder that works with you and becomes a brag dog.

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## Steelheadfred

You can whistle sit your dog on a runner to catch up, or you hope your dog learns how to coral them, by pushing to cover breaks and from the birds side, yore job is to work to the escape route, unlike planted birds, you won't and dont need to kill everyone, so you go about shooting the ones you can.

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## GamebirdPreserve

Steelheadfred said:


> Hal,
> 
> Here is what I think, I think Cockers are the perfect dog for the casual bird hunter, the guy that hunts Grouse and WC a dozen days a year, maybe a trip west every other year for roosters. I also think they are a perfect tool for a very serious hunter that wants to pair the dog with another breed or a bracemate.
> 
> The casual hunter, the cockers I've been around have a very natural range, ie they hunt in gun range, get them bird broke, some basic yard work and retrieving work, gun broke and a cocker is going to be more help than hurt on those 12-18 hunts a year, plus be a model citizen around the house and with kids.
> 
> I believe they are growing in popularity because of what I said above.
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is, because not everyone likes Dog training, a turn key cocker seems to be a nice choice for those folks. Some folks live in the city, have little kids, two careers, what they want is a dog that is more help than hurt on a hunt. They might not have the resources or the time to have it trained to a finished level, but they still desire to have a dog as part of their life and their kids life.
> 
> The style of Lab I own, and many of the springers I've seen are too much dog for these kinds of folks. They want a grab a dog when they get a day and a half and head north. They don't want to deal with a dog out of gun range, and if the dog finds birds in gun ranges and brings em to hand, well that will make lots of folks happy, they could care less if the dog drops the bird, they are just happy it made a retrieve with very little "training." They are happy the dog wants to be with them, not where it wants to find birds for itself, they are happy when birds are not being blown out at 60 yards.
> 
> Again, the biggest difference I see in Cockers is they have a bit different head than some of the springers, depending on who you are, and what you desire this could be a very positive aspect or a negative aspect.
> 
> There is no one dog, despite what the pointing lab folks say:lol:, that can do it all for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retrieving wild birds in wild places is far different than retrieving planted birds, planted birds are found in manicured landscapes, die far easier, don't have the survival skills of wild birds. The marking is generally easier, the bird falls generally far closer to the dog, they fly slower.
> 
> But to your point, some dogs that don't retrieve lots of planted birds will have different mouth manners, a wild bird is far cleaner, is not covered in dust and dirt and have human and poop smell all over it. But as you said, properly trained to retrieve, each should be delivered to hand without a drop.


 


Fritz,

I also like the small size of the Cocker Spaniel and I am surprised that we do not see more of them training here as Upland Hunters. The ones we do see are very nice. I enjoy them. 

We train all breeds and I do agree with your statements above, MOST DOG OWNERS want a good fitting house companion first that will go out hunting and get the job done occasionally. Most cannot afford to get their dog FINISHED TO PERFECTION because they do not go out hunting as often as they would like, but instead they desire a bird dog that will do a decent job, when they eventually do break away to go hunting a handful of times each year (if they are lucky!). 


I would estimate of the hundreds of bird dog owners that we train privately with their dogs each year, 90 percent fit your above description. Just a decent bird dog that will get the job done on that occasional hunt. They spend the time to initially get them birdy, basic skills and gun broke properly. Most are happy at that stage and will not invest the time or money to fine tune their dogs. PERFECTION is not what the majority of bird dog owners are looking for. 


Well ... honestly the most common dog we see is still the Lab! There are just so many of them out there!


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Depends on how good they handle birds and in which manner, there is nothing to handling planted birds. Handling running birds takes contacts, experience and team work, best developed through giving a dog its head and allowing it to learn, being selective in what you shoot for a few years, and having a dog learn how hard, from which direction to push a runner, till that bird is cornered into a mistake.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


There you go, not sure if were running beagles,pointing dogs, race horses, best of luck with that approach. Maybe that system needs a thread of it's own


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## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> In a recent thread about Brittany's the question was raised as to the differences between Cockers and Springers. For those willing let's explore the possibilities.
> As flushing retrieveing dogs they will have several similar characteristics, especially considering that the two different and distinct breeds came from the same sire and dam, a little over a hundred years ago.
> 1. Drive strength of quest,quartering style
> 2. Nose, bird finding ability
> 3. courage in the face of heavy cover
> 4. Strength of flush,boldness
> 5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
> 
> * The differences between Cockers and Springers.*
> Spaniel devotees normally appreciate them both
> 
> Young field trial propect
> [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwU-O3XKkik"]English Springer Spaniel Field Trial, Puppy Stake - YouTube[/ame]


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## Steelheadfred

What's the difference Hal? In your opinion, what is the springer better suited for and what is the cocker better suited for?

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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> What's the difference Hal? In your opinion, what is the springer better suited for and what is the cocker better suited for?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 
My opinion is the breeds are fairly interchangable. Specialization would only come from certain types of training. 
Having shot all types of upland game over the the 2 breeds here and in the UK. I would not specialize the breeds,i.e. the EP or ES.
i.e I would not expect my dads EP to take us duck hunting, but I would expect it to hunt quail and do a better job of pinning coveys than my spaniel.
So which spaniel is better... the one that does the job it was trained for.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> My opinion is the breeds are fairly interchangable. Specialization would only come from certain types of training.
> Having shot all types of upland game over the the 2 breeds here and in the UK. I would not specialize the breeds,i.e. the EP or ES.
> i.e I would not expect my dads EP to take us duck hunting, but I would expect it to hunt quail and do a better job of pinning coveys than my spaniel.
> So which spaniel is better... the one that does the job it was trained for.


That was my point in saying not a lot of difference between the 2 breeds. I have one that naturally wants to have that small British pattern, that would be Dante for those who saw him last year. But wil lots of planted bird work transitioned to wild birds he opens up quite nicely and I have the "tools" to bring him in if needed. My younger dog naturally wants to quarter very large, maybe larger than many springers I've been around. He has been getting lots of planted bird work so I have the "tools" to keep in bird shootin range cause my old wore out legs don't run or even trot anymore. 

An analogy, not perfect by any means, is to labs and chessies, which is better or more natural? Both are retrievers, both trained fairly similarly, both could be argued as more natural. I loved my chessies for the Lake Huron and Lake Michigan diver hunting I used to do lots of. Sure there is a difference in attitude between chessies and labs. Sort of like cockers and springers. In my opinion labs are more "turnkey"possibly because there are so many lines to choose from, simialr to springers. I find my cockers accept fewer repetitions before getting bored, my cheesies were liek that compared to the labs I've worked with. 

When it comes to cockers I believe it depends if you get western bred dogs vs the eastern bred dogs. The western dogs mainly from ND are usually larger and run larger patterns, those from the east generally are smaller and run tighter patterns. If you do your homework either can be great flushers!
Steve

ps. Thanks Hal for all the vids. Been a nice break between teh walleye bite and keeping up on the fire for friends.


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## dauber

Grouse Seeker said:


> I've never hunted with either breed of spaniel. The birds in the video's seem to hold tight. What is the dog supposed to do on a running grouse or pheasant? They seem like such close working dogs, will the dog follow the bird and give the hunter a shot. Just curious how the flushing dog thing works. Thanks.


 
What I do with running birds depends on the kind of bird and cover. With ruffed grouse that are runners I like to keep good control of my spaniel and either let the birds move to the outside edge of the cover where they should hold better, or I work the ourside edges first and push them into the middle where they hold against old logging trails or conifer groves. Then go after them where I may have an advantage. I have the most trouble with running grouse late in the season after they have been hunted hard and the vegataion has flattened out. Early in the season the season young birds hold better and there is lots of cover to hold them. 

On pheasants again I look for objectives that hold them such as cover changes, hedge row ends, and hilltops. In the meantime I keep them in range either by sitting to the whistle, turning them or having them come in. This depends on the dog I have down, the wind direction, and scenting conditions. My more experienced dogs learn how to "read" my walking and have learned the range they can go (they learn this from repetitions on planted birds where I have more control of the situation) To do all of this they neeed lots of control work first. After I have taught them the tools then I can use the tools while hunting and we build that teamwork where I don't need much for whistle commands. Working a flushy takes you, the dog and the bird to be on the same page and the bird wants ot read a different book. So you and dog have to think and move as one.

Planted birds can be easy, but when the wind is calm they can be the toughest there is for a dog to find. A bird that has moved becomes and easy bird to find. Being a bird planter I have seen many a passed bird that most thought ran off. 

Hope that helps some Grouse Seeker.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Disclamer: This is not meant to insult anyone. Sorry this is little off topic but the direction of this post has changed I am just going with the flow.

This is in response to the dog dropping birds.

Okay so I have voiced my opinion about RGS fun trials and the changes I would like to see for safety and other reasons. I have to say for as many things that I would like to see changed in those trials there are things I would like to see changed in the spaniel trials. I understand that these trials are just judging bird finding ability, flushing and steadiness and some control. But I think it falls short of what I would want from complete hunting dog.

· I think dogs that can't do a 50 yard retrieve without help should be dropped.
· I think a dog that only puts on a 1-3 minute hunt for a downed bird and then gives up should be dropped. That dog should stay out there until I say its time to give up.
· I think dogs that drop birds repetitively should be dropped.
· I think dogs that stand on their birds and pull them apart should be dropped. I dont care if the dog kills the bird by squeezing as long as it is not chewing or tearing it apart. 

If your dog has a habit of dropping wild birds I guarantee you will be losing birds. Pen raised birds you would be hard pressed to lose one if it gets dropped. Now I know some of those things could be fixed with force fetch, but the desire to stay out there and hunt I want to see that in the dog.

I like the ESS. I have no desire at this time to own any other breed. That said I do like ESS that are at the smaller end of the scale.

My ideal puppy is one that wants nothing more than to possess things especially birds. Good nose, good eyes, good legs and hips, and good body structure for endurance. 
The birds and I can teach it the rest of what the dog needs to know.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> What I do with running birds depends on the kind of bird and cover. With ruffed grouse that are runners I like to keep good control of my spaniel and either let the birds move to the outside edge of the cover where they should hold better, or I work the ourside edges first and push them into the middle where they hold against old logging trails or conifer groves. Then go after them where I may have an advantage. I have the most trouble with running grouse late in the season after they have been hunted hard and the vegataion has flattened out. Early in the season the season young birds hold better and there is lots of cover to hold them.
> 
> On pheasants again I look for objectives that hold them such as cover changes, hedge row ends, and hilltops. In the meantime I keep them in range either by sitting to the whistle, turning them or having them come in. This depends on the dog I have down, the wind direction, and scenting conditions. My more experienced dogs learn how to "read" my walking and have learned the range they can go (they learn this from repetitions on planted birds where I have more control of the situation) To do all of this they neeed lots of control work first. After I have taught them the tools then I can use the tools while hunting and we build that teamwork where I don't need much for whistle commands. Working a flushy takes you, the dog and the bird to be on the same page and the bird wants ot read a different book. So you and dog have to think and move as one.
> 
> Planted birds can be easy, but when the wind is calm they can be the toughest there is for a dog to find. A bird that has moved becomes and easy bird to find. Being a bird planter I have seen many a passed bird that most thought ran off.
> 
> Hope that helps some Grouse Seeker.


a-ok +1
Very good Steve No sense here muddying the waters with techno jargon.


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Disclamer: This is not meant to insult anyone. Sorry this is little off topic but the direction of this post has changed I am just going with the flow.
> 
> This is in response to the dog dropping birds.
> 
> Okay so I have voiced my opinion about RGS fun trials and the changes I would like to see for safety and other reasons. I have to say for as many things that I would like to see changed in those trials there are things I would like to see changed in the spaniel trials. I understand that these trials are just judging bird finding ability, flushing and steadiness and some control. But I think it falls short of what I would want from complete hunting dog.
> 
> · I think dogs that can't do a 50 yard retrieve without help should be dropped.
> · I think a dog that only puts on a 1-3 minute hunt for a downed bird and then gives up should be dropped. That dog should stay out there until I say its time to give up.
> · I think dogs that drop birds repetitively should be dropped.
> · I think dogs that stand on their birds and pull them apart should be dropped. I dont care if the dog kills the bird by squeezing as long as it is not chewing or tearing it apart.
> 
> If your dog has a habit of dropping wild birds I guarantee you will be losing birds. Pen raised birds you would be hard pressed to lose one if it gets dropped. Now I know some of those things could be fixed with force fetch, but the desire to stay out there and hunt I want to see that in the dog.
> 
> I like the ESS. I have no desire at this time to own any other breed. That said I do like ESS that are at the smaller end of the scale.
> 
> My ideal puppy is one that wants nothing more than to possess things especially birds. Good nose, good eyes, good legs and hips, and good body structure for endurance.
> The birds and I can teach it the rest of what the dog needs to know.


Exactly and why because you have standards for your self and your dog.
Your list represent bare minimums of behavior and certainly more than reasonable.


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## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Exactly and why because you have standards for your self and your dog.
> Your list represent bare minimums of behavior and certainly more than reasonable.


 
Hal,

I think because I do both Spaniel and retriever venues that I have different requirments than those of most spaniel owners and of retriever owners. 

It is hard for me to go to any event and not apply my standards to the work I see going on. Not that I am trying to be negative about people and their dogs. It is hard for me to let go of that and say that is not being judged and so it should not reflect negatively on the dog. I would never make a good dog trial judge. I am to nitpicky as some would call it. I just call it being anal. It makes me think about the comments I get about some of my photos. The dog is always clean and there are no weeds in my yard. And my dog always sits to flush!


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## gundogguy

Keeper finishing up his JH title in Virginia





 
He currently has 2 legs toward his SH


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## dauber

Thanks for posting Hal. 
Nice to see Nancy still working her cockers! I used to think there was no way an American Cocker could hunt at all. Then I saw Trish Jackson's FC "Pride" run a few times and place in one trial I was at. I could have fun hunting behind them.


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## JAM

Oops! Wrong thread.


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## Jim58

gundogguy said:


> Keeper finishing up his JH title in Virginia
> 
> Nancy and Keeper 2010 Hunt Test in Virginia - YouTube
> 
> He currently has 2 legs toward his SH


Very fun. Thanks for sharing Hal.

Jim

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## michgundog

I'm with Brandy said:


> Hal,
> 
> I think because I do both Spaniel and retriever venues that I have different requirments than those of most spaniel owners and of retriever owners.
> 
> It is hard for me to go to any event and not apply my standards to the work I see going on. Not that I am trying to be negative about people and their dogs. It is hard for me to let go of that and say that is not being judged and so it should not reflect negatively on the dog. I would never make a good dog trial judge. I am to nitpicky as some would call it. I just call it being anal. It makes me think about the comments I get about some of my photos. The dog is always clean and there are no weeds in my yard. And my dog always sits to flush!


Doug, are you ultimately considering taking brandy to a UKC grand? I didn't notice it too much in the way she ran, but with all that non-slip training, does it affect her quartering and range? 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Thanks for posting Hal.
> Nice to see Nancy still working her cockers! I used to think there was no way an American Cocker could hunt at all. Then I saw Trish Jackson's FC "Pride" run a few times and place in one trial I was at. I could have fun hunting behind them.


Jim58 Very fun. Thanks for sharing Hal.

Keeper and Nancy are fun. In the modern history of the breed I have steady 2 Am cockers Steve you might remeber Janin's Rudy dog, I have probable killed more birds over steady Am Cockers than anyman alive,in recent history anyway.

Of Course you know SHF sent me a PM and had to nit pick the Keeper dog, typical meat hunter, Meat hunter's normally judge from the negative and NOT the positive side of dog work.
It's kinda like converting a Muslim to Judism....Impossible

Mike great question concerning the affects of non-slip training and upland performance.. I'll look forward to the answer...


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## Steelheadfred

Hal, they are called Private messages for a reason, they're Private, but I realize asking a guy that's accomplished nothing more than training pigeons dogs to grasp the concept of Private is asking alot, sort of like the difference between a dog that can flush planted birds and a dog that can hunt wild birds, the difference in intelligence of the two animals is miles apart.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> I have probable killed more birds over steady Am Cockers than anyman alive,in recent history anyway.


A modern day hero right her amongst us peon meat hunters. We are ever so privileged. 




RH


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## Steelheadfred

Duece22 said:


> A modern day hero right her amongst us peon meat hunters. We are ever so privileged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RH


10K years of captive birds Jr. (Hal, the K followed by the 10 = 3 zero's)

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Mike McDonald

gundogguy said:


> Jim58 Very fun. Thanks for sharing Hal.
> 
> 
> 
> Of Course you know SHF sent me a PM and had to nit pick the Keeper dog, typical meat hunter, Meat hunter's normally judge from the negative and NOT the positive side of dog work.
> It's kinda like converting a Muslim to Judism....Impossible
> 
> I'm all for good banter, but this is off the scale. Any question that I had about who you were or what you were about has been answered.
> mike mcdonald


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Jim58 Very fun. Thanks for sharing Hal.
> 
> Keeper and Nancy are fun. In the modern history of the breed I have steady 2 Am cockers Steve you might remeber Janin's Rudy dog, I have probable killed more birds over steady Am Cockers than anyman alive,in recent history anyway.
> Of Course you know SHF sent me a PM and had to nit pick the Keeper dog, typical meat hunter, Meat hunter's normally judge from the negative and NOT the positive side of dog work.
> It's kinda like converting a Muslim to Judism....Impossible
> Mike great question concerning the affects of non-slip training and upland performance.. I'll look forward to the answer...


Yes I do remember Rudy. It is FANTASTIC that you work with these people who hunt very few if any wild birds, but have gotten into the field games and have another avenue to enjoy their dogs. Kudos to you Hal.  These are the kind of people we as hunters really need on our side if we want to continue to have the hunting privilege.



Steelheadfred said:


> Hal, they are called Private messages for a reason, they're Private, but I realize asking a guy that's accomplished nothing more than training pigeons dogs to grasp the concept of Private is asking alot, sort of like the difference between a dog that can flush planted birds and a dog that can hunt wild birds, the difference in intelligence of the two animals is miles apart.
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


This adds a lot to the thread eh.



Duece22 said:


> A modern day hero right her amongst us peon meat hunters. We are ever so privileged. RH


You finally noticed eh!:evil:




Steelheadfred said:


> 10K years of captive birds Jr. (Hal, the K followed by the 10 = 3 zero's)
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Another great addition to the spaniel thread Speaking of over the top these three are over the top! 

Think I'll go out and work the dogs on some bumpers, bet that will help make em top wild bird hunters. 

Oh yea after the Keeper vid Hal one of the other vids that came up was a chessie doing a master hunter run. That was a fun one to watch too even though they aren't wild birds.
Steve


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## Steelheadfred

Steve, its ok for Hal to put down meat hunters, but chicken spinners are off limits?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Steve, its ok for Hal to put down meat hunters, but chicken spinners are off limits?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Did this thread become 3 or 4 different topics now? 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Did this thread become 3 or 4 different topics now?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Now Mike don't be a "Nit Picker". You can only Nit Pick if you are a member of the amagamated meat hunters united.


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Doug, are you ultimately considering taking brandy to a UKC grand? I didn't notice it too much in the way she ran, but with all that non-slip training, does it affect her quartering and range?
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Mike, I'll see if we can get back on the spaniel track here despite being nitpicked

Not trying to step on Dougs toes here and I am very interested in his take on this topic.

Today's training with my pair (and we were joined with 2 labs too) was working on 100-120yd singles with at least one moderate cover change (light to thick or thick to light). Unbeknownst to us there had been a pair of sandhills walking all over about 50 yards into our marks shortly before we got to the field. It was just too much for the spaniels to run through to the mark for the first couple trys. Then after that they did make the marks pretty well on the down wind run. When we changed and ran up wind they had trouble running that far without quartering. That is my goal this summer is to have the younger cocker making 100 yard retrieves consitently. The labs didn't have too much trouble. He is getting there but as I add hazards we have to back up, get familiar with the hazard then move ahead. After all of that I think it can have a negative impact on his range, but by working him on the planted birds and having the tools available to get the range back in he seems to mostly be adjusting well. This will be his 3rd hunting season and our earlier walks this year were pretty good with me not having to whistle much to keep him in my range. I think he is getting it with the occasional reminder. What's your thoughts Mike? And I'm waiting to hear Dougs thoughts since he is much farther along with Brandy than I am with mine.
Steve


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Mike, I'll see if we can get back on the spaniel track here despite being nitpicked
> 
> Not trying to step on Dougs toes here and I am very interested in his take on this topic.
> 
> Today's training with my pair (and we were joined with 2 labs too) was working on 100-120yd singles with at least one moderate cover change (light to thick or thick to light). Unbeknownst to us there had been a pair of sandhills walking all over about 50 yards into our marks shortly before we got to the field. It was just too much for the spaniels to run through to the mark for the first couple trys. Then after that they did make the marks pretty well on the down wind run. When we changed and ran up wind they had trouble running that far without quartering. That is my goal this summer is to have the younger cocker making 100 yard retrieves consitently. The labs didn't have too much trouble. He is getting there but as I add hazards we have to back up, get familiar with the hazard then move ahead. After all of that I think it can have a negative impact on his range, but by working him on the planted birds and having the tools available to get the range back in he seems to mostly be adjusting well. This will be his 3rd hunting season and our earlier walks this year were pretty good with me not having to whistle much to keep him in my range. I think he is getting it with the occasional reminder. What's your thoughts Mike? And I'm waiting to hear Dougs thoughts since he is much farther along with Brandy than I am with mine.
> Steve


Steve, yes I hope we can the thread back on track. I think this summer you'll just have to work your dogs on longer and longer blind type retrieves. Are they going out and doing them now? 



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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Steve, yes I hope we can the thread back on track. I think this summer you'll just have to work your dogs on longer and longer blind type retrieves. Are they going out and doing them now?
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 
Well back from my retiever days I learned that blinds are made up of 3 things, lining, casting, and stopping. We have the stopping down since the young guy is steady. Now we are working on lining and he is doing pretty well with the pattern lines (using a flag to start with). He is going out 40-50 yds with the flag and then again when I remove it. I tried to jump ahead today and try one without the flag but he started hunting in about 30yds so backed up again. We are just beginning casting. **Yes Hal I am using good hand signals! I would like to get him to do 50 yard backs to go along with 100yd+ retrieves across at least 2 hazards (cover changes, hillslopes). Thanks Mike. Oh yea your PM box is full too.
Steve


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Well back from my retiever days I learned that blinds are made up of 3 things, lining, casting, and stopping. We have the stopping down since the young guy is steady. Now we are working on lining and he is doing pretty well with the pattern lines (using a flag to start with). He is going out 40-50 yds with the flag and then again when I remove it. I tried to jump ahead today and try one without the flag but he started hunting in about 30yds so backed up again. We are just beginning casting. **Yes Hal I am using good hand signals! I would like to get him to do 50 yard backs to go along with 100yd+ retrieves across at least 2 hazards (cover changes, hillslopes). Thanks Mike. Oh yea your PM box is full too.
> Steve


Yes the lining part can be the toughest, sounds like you have the right formula. The most important step is having them lock in on the target object and gradually increase the distance. I like Spencer's method using a traffic cone. I use something very similar and try to use his philosophy. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Well back from my retiever days I learned that blinds are made up of 3 things, lining, casting, and stopping. We have the stopping down since the young guy is steady. Now we are working on lining and he is doing pretty well with the pattern lines (using a flag to start with). He is going out 40-50 yds with the flag and then again when I remove it. I tried to jump ahead today and try one without the flag but he started hunting in about 30yds so backed up again. We are just beginning casting. **Yes Hal I am using good hand signals! I would like to get him to do 50 yard backs to go along with 100yd+ retrieves across at least 2 hazards (cover changes, hillslopes). Thanks Mike. Oh yea your PM box is full too.
> Steve


So time ago i had the good fortune of working a Lab that had been trained by Danny Farmer, Danny is a perennial finalist at the National Open,in the retriever world
The Owner of this dog wanted me to introduce the dog to upland,he did not duck hunt.
After teaching this 4yrold new whistles quarter, sit to flush, he was good to go.. except one small item..
When Odie went back home the owner took him out to play their usual game together, Blinds at 200-300- and 400yds...he would not doit. 
all he wanted to do was quarter and hunt for birds. Now eventual he got it back but the owner had to run up quite an electric bill and many many marbles


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## gundogguy

Rabbit hunting with the spaniel. This is "helmut cam' and angles and distance seemed to be decieving.


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## gundogguy

Steve get karen to help with this


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Steve get karen to help with this


 
That looks like a good way to continue on with lining. Thanks for posting.


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## I'm with Brandy

Lining drill. You don't have to have the other person out there just lay out your bumpers in a line and send the dog out on your blind command.

If someone wants to train their spaniel to handle there is no better way than to join a retriever club and join in on the training sessions. And do the same drills. Lining drills, t drills, baseball drills, wagon wheel drills, connect the dots, memory blinds, swim by ect. I do a modified swim by as I don't use a collar.

Hal,

Do ever worry that if you rabbit hunt with a spaniel that when bird hunting they maybe more interested in looking for rabbits than birds? I have had Brandy flush rabbits but I have been told to never shoot one or it may adversely effect bird hunting with her.


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Lining drill. You don't have to have the other person out there just lay out your bumpers in a line and send the dog out on your blind command.
> 
> If someone wants to train their spaniel to handle there is no better way than to join a retriever club and join in on the training sessions. And do the same drills. Lining drills, t drills, baseball drills, wagon wheel drills, connect the dots, memory blinds, swim by ect. I do a modified swim by as I don't use a collar.
> 
> Hal,
> 
> Do ever worry that if you rabbit hunt with a spaniel that when bird hunting they maybe more interested in looking for rabbits than birds? I have had Brandy flush rabbits but I have been told to never shoot one or it may adversely effect bird hunting with her.


Doug,
Good question! But whoever told you that did not understand or know spaniels. They were a rabbit dog first in formost. In Scotland at the trials they will be responsible for more rabbits than partridge. Hunt those bunnies at will. On one rough shoot in Wales "92" 3 guns 2 spaniels running a proper brace for 3 hours we shot 9 pheasants 4 partridge 6 rabbits and 2 duck and 4 snipe. It was a nice mixed bag.


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## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Doug,
> Good question! But whoever told you that did not understand or know spaniels. They were a rabbit dog first in formost. In Scotland at the trials they will be responsible for more rabbits than partridge. Hunt those bunnies at will. On one rough shoot in Wales "92" 3 guns 2 spaniels running a proper brace for 3 hours we shot 9 pheasants 4 partridge 6 rabbits and 2 duck and 4 snipe. It was a nice mixed bag.


Thanks Hal for the insight. She is steady to flush on rabbits and I do like the taste of fried rabbit.


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## gundogguy




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## dauber

Nice effiecent pattern and good use of the quatering into wind. I could watch good spaniel work all day long.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Nice effiecent pattern and good use of the quatering into wind. I could watch good spaniel work all day long.


1+ 

That pattern, use of the wind, and response to handler signals would work most anywhere for upland birds. 

Nothing "mechanical" about it!

NB


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## I'm with Brandy

Yes nice work on that young dog. There is something mesmerizing and pleasing to the eye watching good field work.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Who has got an inbetween spaniel??


I would say my 2.5yr old Smoke is inbetween steadying and finishing. We still do brush up steadying things and are adding things that should help him towards finishing such as the blind retrieve work, multiple retrieve work, added objectives to his retrieves like cover changes, slope changes, land-water-land. As for flushing work planned this year is to work on brace manners and flushing birds while making retrieves. 

Is that what you were refering to as inbetween?


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## Steelheadfred

Is there a category for functionally steady, for a wild bird dog.


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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> Is there a category for functionally steady, for a wild bird dog.


Category huh? No, steady is steady. Major leagues is major leauges. Not everyone wants to put in the work or has the talent to make the major leagues.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I would say my 2.5yr old Smoke is inbetween steadying and finishing. We still do brush up steadying things and are adding things that should help him towards finishing such as the blind retrieve work, multiple retrieve work, added objectives to his retrieves like cover changes, slope changes, land-water-land. As for flushing work planned this year is to work on brace manners and flushing birds while making retrieves.
> 
> Is that what you were refering to as inbetween?


Dogs in training are always under pressure or conflict.
In most cases we take known behaviors and through conflict resolution make those behaviors stronger and more reliable. dogs inbetween for example,and there are many examples,this just one.

A newly steadied dog that has shown in and during yard work or training, that he/she is confident enough to return to the bird field, will show one or more tendencies that were not observed prior to the beginning of steadying. i.e. shortened run style either in pattern or intensity, lack of nose, inability to mark the fall of birds once shooting begin again. These challenges are a direct result in the pressur and conflict of the steadying process. Time in the bird field spread over an undertemine period of time(weeks/months) for the dog to regain his confidence in a number of areas that he had prior to steadying.

Nonslip retriever folks talk about the "transition" period that their dogs go through when training a dog going from singles to multiple marks and blinds...it does not come over night.

a retriever of either ilk(ulpland/non-slip) cannot demonstrate true marking talent without going thru this period.

You are exactly correct about Smoke you are "finishing known" behaviors", and adding or layering new ones. Just great for you and your Smoke dog.


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## Steelheadfred

Steve, playing devils advocate, how does a dog mark sitting under a 3 foot fern canopy? 

How about this, what if a dog has a hard flush and comes up 5-10 yards from the flush spot and is steady after that point? 

Is that steady?


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## hehibrits

Steelheadfred said:


> Is there a category for functionally steady, for a wild bird dog.


I would say "steady to wing" is the term you are looking for...or "minor league broke" ;-)

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Steelheadfred

hehibrits said:


> I would say "steady to wing" is the term you are looking for...or "minor league broke" ;-)
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Better not miss with that program...:coolgleam


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> *Steve, playing devils advocate, how does a dog mark sitting under a 3 foot fern canopy? *
> That is a non-slip situation and that is why blind retrieving skills are helpful
> [/U]
> 
> *How about this, what if a dog has a hard flush and comes up 5-10 yards from the flush spot and is steady after that point? *
> 
> Is that steady?


Show us the video. in judging steadiness intent is very important,the dogs intent that is. Follow through on hard flush is fine it is what happens at the moment of gun fire and fall of the bird or rabbit.


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Steve, *playing devils advocate*, Is that steady?


Is that like coming into a bar and nit picking or just plain old leg lifting and Pi**ing about


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## Steelheadfred

I'm just trying to work through Marking in an alder jungle in late September. 

If the gun goes off and nothing falls, the dog best not bolt after the bird.


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> I'm just trying to work through Marking in an alder jungle in late September.
> 
> If the gun goes off and nothing falls, the dog best not bolt after the bird.


If the gun goes bang and nothing falls, nothing to Mark nothing to bolt after.
A little tough to work on Marking if nothing falls


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## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> If the gun goes bang and nothing falls, nothing to Mark nothing to bolt after.
> A little tough to work on Marking if nothing falls



OK, those were two separate comments, I'm not real good at smarts.

So say you connect, in an alder jungle in late September with full leaf coverage.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Dogs in training are always under pressure or conflict.
> In most cases we take known behaviors and through conflict resolution make those behaviors stronger and more reliable. dogs inbetween for example,and there are many examples,this just one.
> 
> A newly steadied dog that has shown in and during yard work or training, that he/she is confident enough to return to the bird field, will show one or more tendencies that were not observed prior to the beginning of steadying. i.e. shortened run style either in pattern or intensity, lack of nose, inability to mark the fall of birds once shooting begin again. These challenges are a direct result in the pressur and conflict of the steadying process. Time in the bird field spread over an undertemine period of time(weeks/months) for the dog to regain his confidence in a number of areas that he had prior to steadying.
> 
> Nonslip retriever folks talk about the "transition" period that their dogs go through when training a dog going from singles to multiple marks and blinds...it does not come over night.
> 
> a retriever of either ilk(ulpland/non-slip) cannot demonstrate true marking talent without going thru this period.
> 
> You are exactly correct about Smoke you are "finishing known" behaviors", and adding or layering new ones. Just great for you and your Smoke dog.


Aahh, is that why since we have stepped into the world of blinds a few weeks ago his marking as gone in the toilet? I noticed today he wants to keep looking at me while the mark is thrown. Before this is focused well on marks. I have been keeping the blind work seperate from marking by at least a few hours thinking thatr would help keep it straight for him. This has all happened since I've introduced casting. 

Thanks Hal.


----------



## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> Show us the video. in judging steadiness intent is very important,the dogs intent that is. Follow through on hard flush is fine it is what happens at the moment of gun fire and fall of the bird or rabbit.



I'll have to ask Doug to get me some video, I'm gone for most of this month.


----------



## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> Steve, playing devils advocate, how does a dog mark sitting under a 3 foot fern canopy?
> 
> How about this, what if a dog has a hard flush and comes up 5-10 yards from the flush spot and is steady after that point?
> 
> Is that steady?


That is why I had the dogs down in my alder run yesterday doing marks that they could only see a little arc above the alder. (I did have to shake a few bumpers out of the trees). As far as the ferns my experienced guys actually stand up and even jump to see the fall after the shot. That's part of the life of a cocker, they are pretty short. 

When it comes to hunting, what your happy with, your dog is happy with, and I'm happy with.


----------



## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> OK, those were two separate comments, I'm not real good at smarts.
> 
> So say you connect, in an alder jungle in late September with full leaf coverage.


That's a lovely photo of Alder cover,though I'm not sure what you ar asking. Marking would be factored by the cover,and it looks like a good spaniel hunt dead situation to me. But I'm only assuming what the question is!


----------



## Steelheadfred

dauber said:


> That is why I had the dogs down in my alder run yesterday doing marks that they could only see a little arc above the alder. (I did have to shake a few bumpers out of the trees). As far as the ferns my experienced guys actually stand up and even jump to see the fall after the shot. That's part of the life of a cocker, they are pretty short.
> 
> When it comes to hunting, what your happy with, your dog is happy with, and I'm happy with.



My buddies Cocker will stand on his hind legs, it's pretty cool to watch. I like that dog, you'll get to meet that dog Saturday Steve.

I agree 100% with you last statement, I'm flirting with hunting a hard charging dog steady for benefits other than marking.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Aahh, is that why since we have stepped into the world of blinds a few weeks ago his marking as gone in the toilet? I noticed today he wants to keep looking at me while the mark is thrown. Before this is focused well on marks. I have been keeping the blind work seperate from marking by at least a few hours thinking thatr would help keep it straight for him. This has all happened since I've introduced casting.
> 
> Thanks Hal.


Steve compartmentalize your work, Have your sessions on just one facet of the behavior till the dog is confident in the work he doing.
If your doing marks do marks if your doing blinds or directed retieves do those but for the short term donot mix the two activities
Example during the beginning of steadying in the yard i donot take the dog to the bird field and allow them to find & flush birds, it would send to many mixed signals to the dog and teach the dog no matter how strong a dog to avoid some of the work that I wanted him to do.


----------



## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> Steve compartmentalize your work, Have your sessions on just one facet of the behavior till the dog is confident in the work he doing.
> .


Hal,

I like this thought process.


----------



## lang49

Steelheadfred said:


> I'm just trying to work through Marking in an alder jungle in late September.
> 
> If the gun goes off and nothing falls, the dog best not bolt after the bird.


As far as steadiness is concerned, it doesn't matter what the dog witnesses. The dog doesn't go until you say he goes.

As far as marking is concerned, I think you underestimate your dog slightly. Even in that jungle, if he witnesses the flush (the general direction atleast) and hears the bird come crashing down through the brush, I'm pretty sure he'll make the retrieve. Part of marking (from the dogs perspective) is having the confidence to carry a line a little deeper until the dog is in a position to use it's other senses.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> I've never had any dogs in a rabbit pen, but one time out in SD had our first cocker Roan out and he must have had 50 cottontail flushes. It sure was some good steady work.
> 
> Doug, I do like being able to call mine off scent. One of my favorite strategies is to work the interior of a young aspen stand and "move" the birds to the outside edges where they often hold better and often fly out in the older stand. I use the same strategy out west pheasant hunting large crp fields, work birds towards holding objectives such as the outer edge, hilltops, or swales, then swing around and get them from the other direction.
> 
> This vid was an example of rabbit pen work where there is lots of scent. This is just a training session, not actually hunting. Granted I would never hunt like that (unless there are loads of bunnies) but working on control in a controlled and scent full area can be some benificial work.


I understand that this is a training session. But I have seen guys handle their dogs close like this at trials and hunting. Too close for my taste. 

I can call the dog of scent but I want to see some resistance to it. I want to know that I called them off scent. I don't want the desire to follow scent to be over controlled. If that makes sence. Often in the grouse woods you can't see the dog especially when the ferns are up. My dog can spend the entire day in the shade of the ferns or thickets. In fact I have to run her with a bell that time of the year just to know she is still there. I run her in stuff that I may not see her for 5 minutes. I can't see a tail to know she is on scent. How many times would you pull the dog off scent and not even know it. Same thing if I am hunting a two track and she is in the heavy cover pushing birds to the road. I can see where this type of work could be beneficial to field hunting. I hunt open fields about 10% of the year. Not counting training time and hunt test. look at that last video I posted you can't tell she is birdy. You don't even see her for most of the video. I did not know she was on a bird until the first time she came up to see where I was. That was the first indicator that she had bird scent. When she came up the second time I could see her looking down at the bird.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> [/COLOR] *I wonder how many airborne flushes they see in the UK since they dont like dogs that catch birds.*
> 
> 
> 
> Aire born dogs in the UK are either sold to Americans or trained not leap.
> I can think of a number a great dogs that came here because of that trait or behavior.
> The english frown on the "ballerina" as they call it, We americans approve of it...difference in culture.
> Personally I'm fairly neutral on subject, its' kinda of like water entrys big and bold or stealthy,or low tail points or high tail points, as long as they are doing their job it's ok with me


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## Steelheadfred

Doug, how many airborne flushes do you get on Grouse and Woodcock, an average per season?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> I can call the dog of scent but I want to see some resistance to it. I want to know that I called them off scent. I don't want the desire to follow scent to be over controlled. If that makes sence. Often in the grouse woods you can't see the dog especially when the ferns are up. My dog can spend the entire day in the shade of the ferns or thickets. In fact I have to run her with a bell that time of the year just to know she is still there. I run her in stuff that I may not see her for 5 minutes. I can't see a tail to know she is on scent. How many times would you pull the dog off scent and not even know it. Same thing if I am hunting a two track and she is in the heavy cover pushing birds to the road. I can see where this type of work could be beneficial to field hunting. I hunt open fields about 10% of the year. Not counting training time and hunt test. look at that last video I posted you can't tell she is birdy. You don't even see her for most of the video. I did not know she was on a bird until the first time she came up to see where I was. That was the first indicator that she had bird scent. When she came up the second time I could see her looking down at the bird.


I think I understand where your coming from. I guess I prefer to have that "tool" in my toolbox. If the ferns are up it is early in the season and leaves are still up too, and I use a 28ga, therefore I like them in pretty close. I am sure most on the forum think I have "boot polishers". I have also spent considerable time in large cattail covers chasing pheasants where you maybe see the dog 6 or 8 times in an hour (except for the retrieves). I think we both agree you have to have "trust" in your dog and them in you to hunt like that. If I can't see the dog I'm not calling them off anything. Those techiques I use in late season grouse and in large field pheasant. Plus at times I don't want them hunting bunnies and like to be able to call them off easily when I want. Thanks for your response Doug.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> As I said before great photo work and great find by Brandy.
> The photo led me to think about her flush on that chukar that day in that cover. Would her flush been even stronger on a wild bird? Does flushing get better on wild birds vs pen raised? I have my own experiences on the subject,but I was thinking what others have experienced. If dog does not go aireborne with the bird is that a soft flush? The bird is already in the air,right??


I agree with much of what Doug says. Old Scooter the AWS had a somewhat soft flush, for hunt tests I used to feed him clips the week befre to get him charging in as hard as he could. He was also one of the better bird catching dogs I ever had, he brought me back rabbits in the fall, woodock, jack-snipe, and both rooster and hen pheasants in the Dakota's. He would almost point first then charge in. My older cocker now has a very quick flush and he catches a hen a year in our western pheasant hunt, plus many tail feathers and an occasonal rooster. 

I know many of yous hate the chukar, but I love them. They flush nice in the woods and alder, they are easy to plant and they run. Now I do really check out where i get them to make sure they are good flyers. I had about 100 chukar last year and not one was trapped. We had 4 wild hen pheasants trapped last fall.

I think if you mostly hunted grouse the flush would "soften", woodcock can be buggers since they like to hop adn sometimes low flush, so they can if left uncontrolled lead to some hard flushes. I thinkif you wild pheasant hunt mostly that can lead to a pretty hard flush.

Good discussion! Thanks.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I agree with much of what Doug says. Old Scooter the AWS had a somewhat soft flush, for hunt tests* I used to feed him clips the week befre to get him charging in as hard as he could. He was also one of the better bird catching dogs I ever had, he* brought me back rabbits in the fall, woodock, jack-snipe, and both rooster and hen pheasants in the Dakota's. He would almost point first then charge in. My older cocker now has a very quick flush and he catches a hen a year in our western pheasant hunt, plus many tail feathers and an occasonal rooster.
> 
> I know many of yous hate the chukar, but I love them. They flush nice in the woods and alder, they are easy to plant and they run. Now I do really check out where i get them to make sure they are good flyers. I had about 100 chukar last year and not one was trapped. We had 4 wild hen pheasants trapped last fall.
> 
> I think if you mostly hunted grouse the flush would "soften", woodcock can be buggers since they like to hop adn sometimes low flush, so they can if left uncontrolled lead to some hard flushes. I thinkif you wild pheasant hunt mostly that can lead to a pretty hard flush.
> 
> Good discussion! Thanks.


Literally the only remedy known to man,as a way to improve or strengthen the flush. The strong, fresh clip winged pigeons is a tool used all the time with varing degrees of success. Flush is a trait passed on to through breeding.

In newly steadied dogs it is paramount that pups are allowed to find and catch strong clipped winged birds during the training run. Well I'm off to plant a couple strong clipped winged pigeons, befor it gets to hot!

Was this subject covered at the recent RGS training seminar?


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Steelheadfred said:


> Doug, how many airborne flushes do you get on Grouse and Woodcock, an average per season?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 
Few to None that I know of. Keep in mind the grouse cover is so thick I don't always see all the action. I think I remember maybe one on woodcock. Two birds seem to think they were invisible and tried to hide. We trailed them for more than 80 yards around and around. In orer to get that kind of a flush the bird has to hold until the dog is ontop of it. Just don't see that with grouse or woodcock.


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## Steelheadfred

Thanks, your findings are the same as mine, spring woodcock about covers the times I've seen it, pheasants out west can be a different story.

As we talked about the other day, I think most grouse flush 5 to 10 yards in front of the dog, wc on the other hand much closer, I've had a few caught wc that I'm sure were tired flight birds, I don't follow up wc on purpose when I'm hunting them, he'll I rarely follow up grouse unless I think I might have hit one.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> Thanks, your findings are the same as mine, spring woodcock about covers the times I've seen it, pheasants out west can be a different story.
> 
> As we talked about the other day, I think most grouse flush 5 to 10 yards in front of the dog, wc on the other hand much closer, I've had a few caught wc that I'm sure were tired flight birds, I don't follow up wc on purpose when I'm hunting them, he'll I rarely follow up grouse unless I think I might have hit one.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


One in the lungs right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> One in the lungs right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Jealous Three Cases?


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> *Few to None that I know*
> 
> 
> 
> If you could see em you would be in the wrong cover,that's for sure
> It would hold absolutely no value in putting birds in the bag.
> 
> Actually it would be more a criteria in a breeding program, dogs with those kinds of traits would be more desirable to breed than say a Spaniel dog with weak flushing skills or a point. Those individuals may be fine to be a companion hunter but buyer beware if they are allowed propagate, IMO. And that only is concerning Spaniels of any breed..IMO


----------



## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> Jealous Three Cases?


Get it straight it was 1.5 cases
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Steve,

I don't think anyone is right or wrong here it is personal experiance and how we like to skin the cat.

I understand the purpose of asking the dog to quarter even if it has scent of game. I understand the benefit of using it in certain situations. My comment was more about how close the dog was being worked in that video not so much that it was being asked to quarter.
You feel that others may see your dogs as boot lickers I am sure there are those that think mine is too far out. When my dog passes in front of me and I look down at her I don&#8217;t want to be able to see my boots and her at the same time. If am that close to a grouse it must already be dead. 
In the open field 10 &#8211; 15 yards in front is good. When hunting if the dog starts pushing too far out I change direction and I don&#8217;t give her a command. She quickly realizes that I have moved in another direction this teaches her to keep an eye on me. Before you know it she is back out in front and this time she will be closer. And I have not had to give a command to reel her in. I can see with some dogs that may not work. And it won&#8217;t work if the dog is on scent and I wouldn&#8217;t want it to at that point.
Don't get me wrong when the cover is heavy I like it reeled in. 
If I give a come around whistle and she hesitates then I may come to her or I may sit her and move to her location. If she hesitates on a come around whistle I want a clear view of the tail and the work she is doing before I insist on the come around. 
If she has a pheasant running out in front of us then I may insist on quartering much as I think what you are talking about this will help keep the birds from running back past us. But this is not a guarantee that birds won&#8217;t back track past you and the dog will quarter back and the scent will be gone. Birds will also run out to the sides and get away. I like a dog that will follow scent trails. I have a video of an Iowa hunt three dogs on the ground two of them have little interest in ground scent. They would rather run with their heads up scenting the wind. Not saying it&#8217;s good or bad it&#8217;s Just a different type of hunting. I will upload the video so you can watch.
Yes I agree the game changes in late season. Once the cover thins you can see the dog and have a better idea if they are on scent. 
I feel birds teach the dog there is a reward for coming in slow by letting the dog catch them. In training I always ask for my birds to be put out awake no sleepers. I get the usual, what if they run off. I say what if they are trapped. I still wasted my money. I rather the dog track that bird down and get a flush then to just run out and pick it up. I try to stick to pheasants or pigeons. 
The grouse woods definitely tears down quartering work. But I am surprised you find it softens the flush I have not seen that on grouse or woodcock.
Here is a question and I would like to compare answers from all. How do you feel about the dog target hunting?


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> I'm with Brandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Few to None that I know*
> 
> 
> 
> If you could see em you would be in the wrong cover,that's for sure
> It would hold absolutely no value in putting birds in the bag.
> 
> Actually it would be more a criteria in a breeding program, dogs with those kinds of traits would be more desirable to breed than say a Spaniel dog with weak flushing skills or a point. Those individuals may be fine to be a companion hunter but buyer beware if they are allowed propagate, IMO. And that only is concerning Spaniels of any breed..IMO
> 
> 
> 
> Do you notice that after having exposure to different bird breeds your dogs handle them differently? I am talking hundreds of bird exposures.
Click to expand...


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Steelheadfred said:


> Thanks, your findings are the same as mine, spring woodcock about covers the times I've seen it, pheasants out west can be a different story.
> 
> As we talked about the other day, I think most grouse flush 5 to 10 yards in front of the dog, wc on the other hand much closer, I've had a few caught wc that I'm sure were tired flight birds, I don't follow up wc on purpose when I'm hunting them, he'll I rarely follow up grouse unless I think I might have hit one.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Last year we ran across a half dozen woodcock in a little spot next to the river. They held until the dog was on top of them. It seems to me that they hold better in larger numbers than they do when they are alone.


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## Steelheadfred

Doug,

I'm sure I'll appreciate a slower more methodical dog when I'm older (not saying Dauber is old, he is in great shape and I'm sure can move with the best of em through the woods, I can only hope I look as good as him at 46 years old). As you said earlier, hunt the way you like and with the breed you desire. Also, range is dependant on so many things in terms of variables. I tend to think, and think is the key word here, I find more birds by letting them open it up, but maybe when I'm older I hunt even more pocket covers and get even more strategic, cause I doubt I'll desire the pace I hunt at today.

As far as objective hunting, I think it has it's place and time, and it is what I prefer in my dogs, that said, I also desire a dog that see the kind of cover and situations that quartering will be the most productive. I think we had a pretty spirited debate back in December on this topic.:lol: 

The pattern I prefer changes based on the variables, objectives or quartering, or even a figue 8. As you know I don't spend much time teaching it, rather let the dogs figure it out based on cover and lessons from the birds. 

I'll I will say is I don't want my dog passing up the "thickets" and "sweet spots" for the sake of just quartering. I also don't want a dog running not hunting and looking for objectives when we enter a mono culture cover or I am hunting with more than two buddies.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> I'm with Brandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The english frown on the "ballerina" as they call it, We americans approve of it...difference in culture.
> 
> 
> 
> This seals the deal I am going to order that camo dog tutu for the next hunt test.
Click to expand...


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Literally the only remedy known to man,as a way to improve or strengthen the flush. The strong, fresh clip winged pigeons is a tool used all the time with varing degrees of success. Flush is a trait passed on to through breeding.


After watching some of the retriever training I can think of another way to get a stronger flush. Not that I would do it.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> After watching some of the retriever training *I can think of another way to get a stronger flush.* Not that I would do it.


Force around the flush will will have an opposite result than it will around lines and casts.
I have forced enough non spaniels over the years to know that if the client wants a pointing lab or golden I can make the dog a great pointing retriever.. I have been requested to do it more times than I care to remember.
Force around the flush must be finessed,not coerced or else one will have a soft flushing spaniel, even the old check-cord artest's of days gone by understood that.


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Steve,
> I don't think anyone is right or wrong here it is personal experiance and how we like to skin the cat.
> 
> The grouse woods definitely tears down quartering work. But I am surprised you find it softens the flush I have not seen that on grouse or woodcock.
> Here is a question and I would like to compare answers from all. How do you feel about the dog target hunting?


I understand there isn't a right and wrong especially in hunting. It's doing and seeing what we like. I've had a real boot polisher, an AWS that never hunted farther than 20 yards of me, no matter if there was 3 of us, it always surprised me how many birds he would put up and almost all being very good shots we bagged quite a few with him, just had to be careful I didn't walk past him. 

I wasn't clear about grouse and flush, I think if you only worked on grouse the flush wouldn't be quite as hard as when you add clips to help bring out that "I can catch em" in the dog. I don't think my guys get much softer during the first 6 weeks of grouse before we head out west and chase pheasants. Doug I've enjoyed the discussion. 




Steelheadfred said:


> Doug,
> I'm sure I'll appreciate a slower more methodical dog when I'm older (not saying Dauber is old, he is in great shape and I'm sure can move with the best of em through the woods, I can only hope I look as good as him at 46 years old).


It was my job to walk thru the woods for over 30 years, you do somehting that long ya get pretty good at it. I wish I could move as well as I could at 46!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Force around the flush will will have an opposite result than it will around lines and casts.
> I have forced enough non spaniels over the years to know that if the client wants a pointing lab or golden I can make the dog a great pointing retriever.. I have been requested to do it more times than I care to remember.
> Force around the flush must be finessed,not coerced or else one will have a soft flushing spaniel, even the old check-cord artest's of days gone by understood that.


You could tell my reluctants to say it out loud. But you knew what I ment.
I would think you have to start of with force to pile work then transition the work to the field. Force to pile of bumpers then force to pile of dead birds. Transisioned to unseen piles. It would also take a dog that could handle the pressure.

Again I don't even use a collar and so this is not something I would ever do or recommend. But I am not surprised that owners have asked for it.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> I wasn't clear about grouse and flush, I think if you only worked on grouse the flush wouldn't be quite as hard as when you add clips to help bring out that "I can catch em" in the dog. I don't think my guys get much softer during the first 6 weeks of grouse before we head out west and chase pheasants. Doug I've enjoyed the discussion.


When you do cliped wings do you do it in the field or the woods? Are the birds visible or in cover? I have used them before but have not in a long time. She gets enough catches as it is now.

I actually get the strongest flushes on rabbits. Maybe I should re-think the rabbit pen idea. Rabbit flushes actually worry me. I have seen her run full speed at a brush pile and then belly slide into the pile. I am always worried she will loose an eye or get stabed by brush.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Doug, you could be in the minority these days if you desire a hard flushing retriever, , that said sticky flushers are pretty deadly.

Steve, I'd love to see an AWS work I have a buddy that needs a dog inbetween what you, Doug, and I have, and his bid shy pet lab. Grouse 12 to 18 days a year, one trip a year for phez and or Arkansas Mallards, and two to four mi duck hunts. Mostly a dog that will be great with family, but have some natural easy training. I'm open to PMs on this topic if you have info, anyone.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Steelheadfred

I'm with Brandy said:


> When you do cliped wings do you do it in the field or the woods? Are the birds visible or in cover? I have used them before but have not in a long time. She gets enough catches as it is now.
> 
> I actually get the strongest flushes on rabbits. Maybe I should re-think the rabbit pen idea. Rabbit flushes actually worry me. I have seen her run full speed at a brush pile and then belly slide into the pile. I am always worried she will loose an eye or get stabed by brush.


Doug, I'm not a fan of eating rabbits, I'd love to hunt them over a good pack of hounds though. That said, if you've ever hunted South West KS, good gosh, there are bunnies by the ton, I mean 10 an acre in natural prairie. It would scare me to have a dog that liked rabbits.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Steelheadfred said:


> Doug, I'm not a fan of eating rabbits, I'd love to hunt them over a good pack of hounds though. That said, if you've ever hunted South West KS, good gosh, there are bunnies by the ton, I mean 10 an acre in natural prairie. It would scare me to have a dog that liked rabbits.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Everything is something to chase with her. Cats are a real problem she is steady to them. But she often needs a sit. I have never shot a rabbit over her and she has never had one in her mouth but you wouldn't know that if you saw her on one. When we drive down the road she will sit in the back seat and snap at the cars when they go past, but she has never chased a car.


----------



## Jim58

dauber said:


> I understand there isn't a right and wrong especially in hunting. It's doing and seeing what we like. I've had a real boot polisher, an AWS that never hunted farther than 20 yards of me, no matter if there was 3 of us, it always surprised me how many birds he would put up and almost all being very good shots we bagged quite a few with him, just had to be careful I didn't walk past him.
> 
> Steve - is that a trait with AWS? The one I had was a real close worker also but did a great job in the ground he did cover.
> 
> Fritz - he was a great all around dog, good in the house, good with all people and even tolerated cats. He was one of the strongest swimmers I have ever had also. If there was any issue it was that he was strong willed and sometimes took a little extra training effort.
> 
> He was out of Swan Lake Kennels in Wisconsin.
> 
> Sorry for the temporary hijack of an excellent thread.
> 
> Jim


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Jim58 said:


> dauber said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand there isn't a right and wrong especially in hunting. It's doing and seeing what we like. I've had a real boot polisher, an AWS that never hunted farther than 20 yards of me, no matter if there was 3 of us, it always surprised me how many birds he would put up and almost all being very good shots we bagged quite a few with him, just had to be careful I didn't walk past him.
> 
> Steve - is that a trait with AWS? The one I had was a real close worker also but did a great job in the ground he did cover.
> 
> Fritz - he was a great all around dog, good in the house, good with all people and even tolerated cats. He was one of the strongest swimmers I have ever had also. If there was any issue it was that he was strong willed and sometimes took a little extra training effort.
> 
> He was out of Swan Lake Kennels in Wisconsin.
> 
> Sorry for the temporary hijack of an excellent thread.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> Not a highjack. The conversation just keeps transforming. But defenitly some good info coming out. Maybe we could get a subforum for spaniels.:idea:
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Some time I need to come up there and see how you hunt the grouse.
> 
> I need to see how Jam hunts them too.
Click to expand...


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## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> When you do cliped wings do you do it in the field or the woods? Are the birds visible or in cover? I have used them before but have not in a long time. She gets enough catches as it is now.
> I actually get the strongest flushes on rabbits. Maybe I should re-think the rabbit pen idea. Rabbit flushes actually worry me. I have seen her run full speed at a brush pile and then belly slide into the pile. I am always worried she will loose an eye or get stabed by brush.


I do them both in the field and woods and with my experienced dogs it is usually rolled in behind if I'm bring the pattern back in or pre-planted if I'm trying to get them to range out. In fact sometimes I pre-plant 1/2 hour or more before I go get the dogs so they will run around too. 

Yes brush piles are bad, my first cocker Roan twice rammed sticks thru the back of his throat. 



Jim58 said:


> Steve - is that a trait with AWS? The one I had was a real close worker also but did a great job in the ground he did cover.
> 
> Fritz - he was a great all around dog, good in the house, good with all people and even tolerated cats. He was one of the strongest swimmers I have ever had also. If there was any issue it was that he was strong willed and sometimes took a little extra training effort.
> 
> He was out of Swan Lake Kennels in Wisconsin.
> Jim


I had AWS's that would range out quite far (ie Scooter), of the 3 AWS's I had 2 hated swimming. The Swan Lake dog I had was by far my best. The Barth's were super people. Yes they all seemed pretty strong willed, sort-of chessie like.



Steelheadfred said:


> Doug, you could be in the minority these days if you desire a hard flushing retriever, , that said sticky flushers are pretty deadly.
> Steve, I'd love to see an AWS work I have a buddy that needs a dog inbetween what you, Doug, and I have, and his bid shy pet lab. Grouse 12 to 18 days a year, one trip a year for phez and or Arkansas Mallards, and two to four mi duck hunts. Mostly a dog that will be great with family, but have some natural easy training. I'm open to PMs on this topic if you have info, anyone.


Kansas is bunny heaven! Also burrowing owls. Some days we had more burrowing owl flushes than roosters.



I'm with Brandy said:


> Not a highjack. The conversation just keeps transforming. But defenitly some good info coming out. Maybe we could get a subforum for spaniels.:idea:
> Steve,
> Some time I need to come up there and see how you hunt the grouse.
> I need to see how Jam hunts them too.


Interesting idea Doug on a subforum. Your welcome anytime to come up and hunt. I can even meet you around the bridge, some good hunting around there that I only hit once a year or so. Oh yea, I shoot em out the window, dis is da UP eh! The dogs are to pat on da head while drivin around.

Now I gotta get going to "da big city" of the UP anyway. Marquette is a callin.


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> You could tell my reluctants to say it out loud. But you knew what I ment.
> I would think you have to start of with force to pile work then transition the work to the field. Force to pile of bumpers then force to pile of dead birds. Transisioned to unseen piles. It would also take a dog that could handle the pressure.
> 
> Again I don't even use a collar and so this is not something I would ever do or recommend. But I am not surprised that owners have asked for it.


Non-slip retriever training is a highly formulated activity.Whether it be the Carr system or Lardy or Graham system it literally has a mathematical system for developing a high end non-slip retriever.
The process is roughly 90% science and 10% art form.

The development of the Spaniel to high standards is roughly 90% artform and 10% science.

The use of force around the flush or the area that the bird is in must be considered very carefully. a slight misread of the dogs intentions and you may have taken a bold instinctive flush and ruin it for life.
Unimaginable numbers of spaniels have over the last 100 yrs have been so ruined as far as the flush is concerned by inappropriate force during this partof a dogs training and development.

Think of the pointing dog that given force while it is on point, in very short period of time you will have a blinker,try to fix that condition. The same thing happens to the spaniel his flush softens and eventually he is pointing. IMO pointing in a spaniel is blinking. And to be avoided at all costs


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Non-slip retriever training is a highly formulated activity.Whether it be the Carr system or Lardy or Graham system it literally has a mathematical system for developing a high end non-slip retriever.
> The process is roughly 90% science and 10% art form.
> 
> The development of the Spaniel to high standards is roughly 90% artform and 10% science.


Great stuff, Hal. A very good contrast in the training process. And that is _eggzzzactly_ why I LUV SPANIELS!

NB


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Non-slip retriever training is a highly formulated activity.Whether it be the Carr system or Lardy or Graham system it literally has a mathematical system for developing a high end non-slip retriever.
> The process is roughly 90% science and 10% art form.
> 
> The development of the Spaniel to high standards is roughly 90% artform and 10% science.
> 
> The use of force around the flush or the area that the bird is in must be considered very carefully. a slight misread of the dogs intentions and you may have taken a bold instinctive flush and ruin it for life.
> Unimaginable numbers of spaniels have over the last 100 yrs have been so ruined as far as the flush is concerned by inappropriate force during this partof a dogs training and development


Hal, are you refering to using force via and E collar during initial steadying? 





Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Hal, are you refering to using force via and E collar during initial steadying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Well not just the use of the e-collar. For example how many training drills,distinct and different drills, that you know of for developing the spaniel????
The non-slip retriever must at least 20, maybe more. All designed to be used at different stages of the Retriever's life.
To name a few, CC for the retrieve,fetch-no fetch,force to the pile,
mini-T, wagonwheel, and the list goes. It just brillant what has been designed over the last 30 yrs to enable the retriever to go farther and help the retriever solve ever increasingly more diffcult problems. It is a great system for the type of work being asked of it.

My statement about 90% science and 10 % art form concerning the non-slip retriever is not a negative statement it is actually praise for a fine effective training system for dogs that are being asked to do such precise work.

Think of the world class figure skaters,they have basicly two programs of performance, compulsories and free style. Which one of the programs relates to the Retriever, which one to the Spaniel?

Regardless of venue, your basics must well grounded befor you can take the dog to more advanced and complicated work


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## Steelheadfred

Hal,

You do agree though that all age retrievers must have loads and loads of talent, marking, brains, burning drive and many other attributes.

It's all on display next week.

Back to the spaniel, I'm more interested in the ground work for the 90% art form.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Hal,
> 
> You do agree though that all age retrievers must have loads and loads of talent, marking, brains, burning drive and many other attributes.
> 
> It's all on display next week.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 Why not agree its....true! Without (talent, marking, brains, burning drive and many other attributes) that folks donot spend thousands and thousands of dollars to develop talent that is not there. The average dog entered next week is in the $30-75,000 in training and distribution expense. The folks playing at this level do not do it because they _think_ they have a great dog they do it because they _know _they have a great dog.

Glad I'm done planting clips today it's gonna get hot..Have to go smoke some clays got new recipe I want to work with..


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Well not just the use of the e-collar. For example how many training drills,distinct and different drills, that you know of for developing the spaniel????
> The non-slip retriever must at least 20, maybe more. All designed to be used at different stages of the Retriever's life.
> To name a few, CC for the retrieve,fetch-no fetch,force to the pile,
> mini-T, wagonwheel, and the list goes. It just brillant what has been designed over the last 30 yrs to enable the retriever to go farther and help the retriever solve ever increasingly more diffcult problems. It is a great system for the type of work being asked of it.
> 
> My statement about 90% science and 10 % art form concerning the non-slip retriever is not a negative statement it is actually praise for a fine effective training system for dogs that are being asked to do such precise work.
> 
> Think of the world class figure skaters,they have basicly two programs of performance, compulsories and free style. Which one of the programs relates to the Retriever, which one to the Spaniel?
> 
> Regardless of venue, your basics must well grounded befor you can take the dog to more advanced and complicated work


Regarding the flush of spaniel would you agree that light cover can screw up a flush just as bad as adding force via an Ecollar correction or some other method?


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## Gavan

the dog begins looking and or listening for birds rather than driving in. Wants they start using all of their senses to find birds instead of their instinct to drive in they are done for field trials. It can be covered up but very rarely cured.


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## michgundog

Gavan said:


> the dog begins looking and or listening for birds rather than driving in. Wants they start using all of their senses to find birds instead of their instinct to drive in they are done for field trials. It can be covered up but very rarely cured.


All true. Gavan do you trial your spaniel?





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----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Regarding the flush of spaniel would you agree that *light cover can screw up a flush* just as *bad* as ad
> ding force via an *Ecollar correction or some other method*?


Generalized thinking leads to sterotypical thought processes.
It depends on the dog and what processes were intially introduced to as a pup. It would be a dog by dog situation.
Some dogs trial better in heavy cover some trial better in light cover. Some dogs train better in light cover, some train better in heavy.

Tools are just that tools, e-collar, check cord, empty soda can fill with a few pennies, ect, if used improperly any of those items can get you and your dog off on the wrong track.


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## Gavan

but I hunt and guide hunts with them as well. Great discussion in this thread.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> but I hunt and guide hunts with them as well. Great discussion in this thread.


Gavan, welcome aboard. This particular thread is all about spaniels .
photos, areas of interest about the little flushing dogs is enjoyed by one and all here.


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Don't allow the chase.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 Ever.?.?..for all dogs and personality types??
Chasing is not the enemy catching might be,though might not be depending on how it is handled. There are just no absolutes
Never and Always can get you into trouble when training dogs..

Mike
By the way I a 7month old that is introduced to gun fire and chasing very well, delivery is still a work in progress, no problem carrying just a problem believing where "here" is. If she were mine I would start steadying now!


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## Gavan

is based on the dog. A truly intense dog that will chase into the next county, has a bold flush and shows no hint of hesitation would not be allowed to chase much. A more timid dog would be allowed to chase to build up drive and birdiness. Most are not allowed to chase much. Even for a hunter who has no interest in trialing or AKC Master Hunter should still be careful about steadying a dog too early who has little drive on birds. We're not training pointers and if you put too much pressure on a dog that has little drive on birds he/she will just decide to sit out the whole flushing thing and you will play hell to fix it. There are a lot of "trial washouts" sold as gun dogs because problems cropped up during the steadying process.


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## I'm with Brandy

Gavan good point. I can see the benefit of letting a softer flushing dog chase. 

I never really forced the sit. I let the dog chase until the chases got shorter and shorter on their own. Then when they were short enough I started blowing the sit whistle and rewarded for sits even if they were a little slow in the biggining. Then as time went by the sits became more imidiate. Then once she understood the program she would self sit. 

I often have to give a sit whistle on wild birds because there may be more than one bird on the ground and she can usually see them run before they flush.


What training do you do in this hot weather. Here is what we do. I have been to Hal's on a 90deg day I know what he does.

Excuse my bad manners in this video forgot the Kam was on.Still getting over Bron****is. We need to work on vocal stuff at the line I hear.

[ame="http://s399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/Cherry_pics/Training%20Videos/?action=view&current=201207010937170001-1-1.mp4"]Training Videos :: 201207010937170001-1-1.mp4 video by Cherry_pics - Photobucket[/ame]


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## Gavan

guys. I have judged and gunned over cockers and judged, run, and gunned springer trials. On the whole the cocker handlers are quieter and their dogs inherently run tighter and therefore need less whistle. I suppose some would want to have a springer who would never leave gun range and never put a foot down wrong in a spring trial with no cover and birds out there to find. Count me out though. I want to go to the line having peed three times on my way to the line from my truck, with my heart pounding out of my chest wondering how big that first cast will be and whether I will be able to hang onto my dog long enough to get through three series and get a ribbon.
I'm new here so I'm not sure I understood the narrative about judges and field trials but the judges job is to find the best dog of the day. Counting how many whistles were used or who made the least mistakes has no place in judging springer trials. I don't own a cocker so I will refrain from commenting on their point of view about judging. All I know is when I judge I am looking for the best dog of the day which to me is all about the dogs FINDS. It is a very rare instance where retrieving comes into play for me. Finds involve wind use,nose, and flush. That's where the whistle comes in. The handler's job is to put the dog in position to find birds impressively in gun range. If the dog runs the wind properly and puts itself in position then no whistle is necessary. If not you need to whistle to help the dog into position before he gets himself into a bad position and makes a bad find. If the handler is blowing a tune and the dog is not listening then I will hurt the team for that. But remember we're looking for the best dog of the day not one that doesn't need a little whistle.
Retrieving is important but secondary to bird finding. If a dog mismarks, drops the bird three times on the way in, and circles the handler they're toast. But that is rarely the case in our springer trials so it comes down to intensity, style, bird finding efficiency, nose, pace, and a lot of luck. I do try to level the playing field for dogs that get an unfair opportunity due to bad planting, gunning, birds, or a particularly nasty piece of course. In the end the cream rises to the top but I have judged 11 All-Age springer trials and only once did whistle come into play regarding placements and that was when a handler played a continuous tune in some high switch grass in the third series and the dog never came back to check in. The dog just went out and found his two birds and retrieved them. My co-judge wanted to give the dog first. I agreed to a second due to the whistle issue. Not because he blew it but because the dog didn't respond.
I enjoy the discussion about spaniels.


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## I'm with Brandy

Gavan said:


> Retrieving is important but secondary to bird finding. If a dog mismarks, drops the bird three times on the way in, and circles the handler they're toast. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Don't mean to sound like a broken record but I have said talked about this before.
> 
> These are some of the things I was dissapointed about I have seen at trials. I have seen dogs place that have done some if not all of these things in the course of a trial.
> 
> 
> Dogs that can't mark 30 yard retrieves and didn't even seem willing to pickup a dead bird.
> Handlers having to walk the dog to the bird and point to it to get the dog to pick it up.
> Dogs that drop the bird on the way back not just once but over and over.
> Dogs that stand on their birds and pull them apart.
> While other dogs that did good honest work were dropped. Mind you these were amature trials. Not saying that there weren't good dogs that placed. Just I have seen some ugly work done by dogs that placed. These dogs may have had good strong flushes but the rest of the work not impressed. I have seen dogs run all three series up hill into the wind while the other half of the field had to run down hill with the wind to their back in all three series. Not the same trial for those dogs.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Ever.?.?..for all dogs and personality types??
> Chasing is not the enemy catching might be,though might not be depending on how it is handled. There are just no absolutes
> Never and Always can get you into trouble when training dogs..
> 
> Mike
> By the way I a 7month old that is introduced to gun fire and chasing very well, delivery is still a work in progress, no problem carrying just a problem believing where "here" is. If she were mine I would start steadying now!


 
Good points Hal. I will back up and say vey little. But our right it would be based largely on he personality of the dog. The approach of using fly-aways a person better have a the recall instilled in the dog real well and plan on having a clip with them once the dog is coming back in. I want the dog's mind set to think that the birds are near me and not out 75....100yrds. 

Would the 7 month old dogs name be Holly?


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> is based on the dog. A truly intense dog that will chase into the next county, has a bold flush and shows no hint of hesitation would not be allowed to chase much. A more timid dog would be allowed to chase to build up drive and birdiness. Most are not allowed to chase much. Even for a hunter who has no interest in trialing or AKC Master Hunter should still be careful about steadying a dog too early who has little drive on birds. We're not training pointers and if you put too much pressure on a dog that has little drive on birds he/she will just decide to sit out the whole flushing thing and you will play hell to fix it. There are a lot of "trial washouts" sold as gun dogs because problems cropped up during the steadying process.


Well said Gavan! What about a dog with a strong flush and likes to chase into the next county, but is a very soft dog that don't take much pressure? 

Metro1 brought up a fairly famous spaniel trainer who uses homers. He sits the dog, drops a homer in front of dog in a fairly large field and lets pup flush and chase. As soon as he gives up and comes back in he sits him and drops another homer and has pup flush and chase. He continues this until pup is barely chasing. Now is time to begin steadying. Anyone use this method?

I didn't use this method on my hard charging soft dog. With him I kept steady to flush completly seprate from steady to shot. I didn't let him chase much but let him go after the shot. Then months latter I taught sit to shot. Now soon we are going to put it all together with steady to flush and shot. 

I'm learning much from all this discussion.
Steve


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> guys. I have judged and gunned over cockers and judged, run, and gunned springer trials. On the whole the cocker handlers are quieter and their dogs inherently run tighter and therefore need less whistle. I suppose some would want to have a springer who would never leave gun range and never put a foot down wrong in a spring trial with no cover and birds out there to find. Count me out though. I want to go to the line having peed three times on my way to the line from my truck, with my heart pounding out of my chest wondering how big that first cast will be and whether I will be able to hang onto my dog long enough to get through three series and get a ribbon.
> I'm new here so I'm not sure I understood the narrative about judges and field trials but the judges job is to find the best dog of the day. Counting how many whistles were used or who made the least mistakes has no place in judging springer trials. I don't own a cocker so I will refrain from commenting on their point of view about judging. All I know is when I judge I am looking for the best dog of the day which to me is all about the dogs FINDS. It is a very rare instance where retrieving comes into play for me. Finds involve wind use,nose, and flush. That's where the whistle comes in. The handler's job is to put the dog in position to find birds impressively in gun range. If the dog runs the wind properly and puts itself in position then no whistle is necessary. If not you need to whistle to help the dog into position before he gets himself into a bad position and makes a bad find. If the handler is blowing a tune and the dog is not listening then I will hurt the team for that. But remember we're looking for the best dog of the day not one that doesn't need a little whistle.
> Retrieving is important but secondary to bird finding. If a dog mismarks, drops the bird three times on the way in, and circles the handler they're toast. But that is rarely the case in our springer trials so it comes down to intensity, style, bird finding efficiency, nose, pace, and a lot of luck. I do try to level the playing field for dogs that get an unfair opportunity due to bad planting, gunning, birds, or a particularly nasty piece of course. In the end the cream rises to the top but I have judged 11 All-Age springer trials and only once did whistle come into play regarding placements and that was when a handler played a continuous tune in some high switch grass in the third series and the dog never came back to check in. The dog just went out and found his two birds and retrieved them. My co-judge wanted to give the dog first. I agreed to a second due to the whistle issue. Not because he blew it but because the dog didn't respond.
> I enjoy the discussion about spaniels.


Very interesting Gavan. Thanks for sharing. Never know I may give trialing a try someday.


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## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> Metro1 brought up a fairly famous spaniel trainer who uses homers. He sits the dog, drops a homer in front of dog in a fairly large field and lets pup flush and chase. As soon as he gives up and comes back in he sits him and drops another homer and has pup flush and chase. He continues this until pup is barely chasing. Now is time to begin steadying. ANyone use this method?
> Steve


Steve this is the exact method I used to train Brandy and will continue to use with all my future dogs.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> is based on the dog. A truly intense dog that will chase into the next county, has a bold flush and shows no hint of hesitation would not be allowed to chase much. A more timid dog would be allowed to chase to build up drive and birdiness. Most are not allowed to chase much. *Even for a hunter who has no interest in trialing or AKC Master Hunter should still be careful about steadying a dog too early who has little drive on birds.*. There are a lot of "trial washouts" sold as gun dogs because problems cropped up during the steadying process.


Very good advice,comes from experience and lessons learn well in the game.
Yes there are a lot of trial wash-outs due to steadying and a whole host of other factors as well. Over the years i have seen many spaniels that prolly should not have been steadied and either kept as gundogs or sold of as well started gun dogs to homes and situations that would have never trained them or started them as well.
The new folks would have known quantity and level of quality that chances are they would not have been able to develop on there own and all that for basic puppy price in most cases. Recently a Vid was posted of a Nebraska dog for 1500.00, new pups on the board are 1200.00

My point in all this is steady early steady often and always bring your pup up with steadiness as a goal. if your not a trialer gets some help,
either group training or one-on-one with some one that steadies dogs for a living
As for technique, use the one that works for you, "Don't do what don't works" 
For example..Dauber is getting ready to bring the whole package together and that's fine."Now soon we are going to put it all together with steady to flush and shot." 

For me when i steady gundogs I start with steady to gun in the yard, why? the dogs hear a lot more shooting than they see birds falling. I want that gun dog stopped when a shot goes bang, The shot then becomes a cue, if you will, for the dog to stop and watch for falling birds if no birds fall... carry on. It is also precurser to brace work and the manners needed when working with another dog.. Our own trial dogs we approached a little differently but i digress...
There are 100's of little drills in the process you do not need to know them all or use them all.
In life the folks that are successful are those that learn how to find the help they need with the task at hand


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## The Doob

I have read all #330 posts on this thread and watched all the various videos and I would like to thank all the posters and providers for the information contained herein. Although the venom that was sometimes spewed was not necessary, it was entertaining .

As just a regular dog owner of young ESS, I have gleaned much that will make my "rough" shooting dog a better and more efficient hunting companion. He may not ever impress a judge at a trial or a hunt test but my sincere hope is that he will impress me and my hunting companions with:
he hunts for me - not me hunt for him
the ability to find crippled pheasants and ducks
be steady to wing and shot - not chasing birds out of sight
to take hands signals out of an open water Saginaw Bay duck blind
to stop, come and heel when I tell him to
to bring fallen game to me

If he does all these things, he will be considered a "crackerjack" hunting dog and most likely get me invitations to hunt with others. In the regular guy hunting world that I inhabit, dogs that will do the above are rare. I say this after running a duck charter business for seven years and watching a myriad number of dogs that were probably wonderful pets but couldn't find their food dish. 

It is very interesting to me to see and hear about all the different training methods used to achieve success in the dog games. Many are apropos for what I am trying to accomplish.

So again, I thank all the contributors for sharing all these training methods and information regarding spainiels. I have had ESS all my life but did seriously consider a hunting cocker prior to my recent purchase. The decision to stick with the ESS was solely due to the size differential as I determined the extra bulk/strength would be an asset to the dog when duck hunting (I know, some will say I should have gotten a lab but I have just always liked springers as an all arounder)

Dale D. Stevenson
Caro, MI


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## NATTY BUMPO

The Doob said:


> It is very interesting to me to see and hear about all the different training methods used to achieve success in the dog games. Many are apropos for what I am trying to accomplish.
> 
> So again, I thank all the contributors for sharing all these training methods and information regarding spainiels. I have had ESS all my life but did seriously consider a hunting cocker prior to my recent purchase. The decision to stick with the ESS was solely due to the size differential as I determined the extra bulk/strength would be an asset to the dog when duck hunting (I know, some will say I should have gotten a lab but I have just always liked springers as an all arounder)
> 
> Dale D. Stevenson
> Caro, MI


Welcome to the Spaniel Corner, Dale. Very nice first post on this thread.

I have a pair of FBECS and since you mentioned hunting Cockers, I'll make a point about them. Cockers are NOT a "Small ESS". Although deriving from the same lineage over a century ago, the two breeds are quite different today. I will agree that a bigger, stronger ESS would be better suited for big water waterfowling. IMHO a good Cocker gives up nothing to a springer in the grouse woods.

OTOH, I have a good buddy who hunts black ducks on small ponds and slow moving streams on Cape Cod out of a 16 ft canoe. A 30# Cocker stationed in the bow of that craft is the bees knees according to my pal.

Good Luck with your young Springer. He sounds like a GOOD one.

NB


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## michgundog

The Doob said:


> If he does all these things, he will be considered a "crackerjack" hunting dog and most likely get me invitations to hunt with others. In the regular guy hunting world that I inhabit, dogs that will do the above are rare. I say this after running a duck charter business for seven years and watching a myriad number of dogs that were probably wonderful pets but couldn't find their food dish.
> 
> 
> 
> Dale D. Stevenson
> Caro, MI


Dale,

Good post. I hope your new spaniel works out well for you, keep up the training and your goals on what type of dog you want him to be.

Looking forward to seeing some pictures of Sully out on Wildfowl Bay this fall.


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## Gavan

Hal is right about getting help. Those bold, hard charging but sensitive pups can be tricky to steady and still maintain their flush. Some of these dogs wash out with very experienced pros doing the steadying. It goes without saying that doing it on your own reduces the odds significantly. Find a good training group or a pro and show up with a very thick skin and an open mind. Only way to learn.

As far as the question about pressure on a soft dog you have to learn how to read the dog. Pressure to one dog is not even noticed by another. Some dogs like people are "passive aggressive" and show all kinds of "soft" behavior when they are anything but. The latter are frustrating and may lend us to lose our temper and then we have a setback, and then we get more frustrated and so on. Patiently expecting compliance and taking the dogs options away usually gets the desired result.


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## Gavan

holes in our training course and do pattern work, flushing pigeons and retrieving in heavy green cover. Steady to shot with planted blinds and handle the dog to them. The some rudimentary water work. Looks like you train with retriever people and do some serious retrieving work. I've done some of that with my spaniels in the past but not with trial dogs.
Tends to lead to popping and most spaniel judges hate that, as do I.

I saw your comments about sloppy work from dogs that placed in spaniel trials. Was it a springer trial or cocker? I can honestly say that in a typical springer stake of say 30 dogs there may be two or three that I note anything related to retrieving on. Notes I will make include "mismark" (which is different than a work-up) takes a bad line and way overshoots or makes a mess out of the retrieve. "Sloppy" as in laying the bird down other than to reposition it (once only), "mouth?" damaging a bird (give them one killed plant but will kill them for another one in the same trial unless it is spring and all of the birds have eggs and are dying when trapped), "sticky" handler has to wrestle the dog to get the bird. I will score the dog down immediately for the mismark. Not to say they won't place but the score would be affected each time there is a mismark. In the springer game more than half of the dogs in an Amateur stake have been professionally trained and a third of them have been on the pro's truck within the month. The overall quality of the competition is far superior to what it was years ago. For example it is rare to have a dog break on a flush. Most DQ's are failed retrieves and passed birds.


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Welcome to the Spaniel Corner, Dale. Very nice first post on this thread.
> 
> I have a pair of FBECS and since you mentioned hunting Cockers, I'll make a point about them. Cockers are NOT a "Small ESS". Although deriving from the same lineage over a century ago, the two breeds are quite different today. I will agree that a bigger, stronger ESS would be better suited for big water waterfowling. IMHO a good Cocker gives up nothing to a springer in the grouse woods.
> 
> OTOH, I have a good buddy who hunts black ducks on small ponds and slow moving streams on Cape Cod out of a 16 ft canoe. A 30# Cocker stationed in the bow of that craft is the bees knees according to my pal.
> 
> Good Luck with your young Springer. He sounds like a GOOD one.
> 
> NB


Hey Dale welcome in it's good have you and that spanielly spaniel Sully on board. He was good guy spending that weekend in my living room with his sister, he behaved himself rightously.
Oh yea Natty You would like him...he is fine pup, very focused and extremely alert, a proper black headed spaniel for sure!


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## gundogguy

Well now we have our dogs steadied and quartering and retrieveing, may be not in that order. How do we brace them up? When hunting with friends and their dogs or hunting alone with more than one dog
Do we spread out or do we pack in allow things to happen?
Do the standards prevail or do we as a client once said turn'em all loose and run a "rope -a dope"! Just his term for pure pandamonium and excitment.


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## Gavan

sort of follows his dog rather than handling it gets in trouble. I killed plenty of birds over my first springer and she retrieved them to hand. I basically followed her however, with an occasional whistle to steer her or bring her back in. If you truly are going to brace you have to have control and even then competitive dogs can be a pain in the ass.

Steady to shot is critical for bracework as is steady to a flying bird. When the gun goes off or they see a bird inflight they have to sit and wait for direction if you are going to keep them out of trouble. Your hunting partners will find someone else to hunt with if your dog is poaching retrieves that were meant for their dog.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Very good advice,comes from experience and lessons learn well in the game.
> 
> For example..Dauber is getting ready to bring the whole package together and that's fine."Now soon we are going to put it all together with steady to flush and shot."
> 
> For me when i steady gundogs I start with steady to gun in the yard, why? the dogs hear a lot more shooting than they see birds falling. I want that gun dog stopped when a shot goes bang, The shot then becomes a cue, if you will, for the dog to stop and watch for falling birds if no birds fall... carry on.


Hal,
Maybe I'm dyslectic? I have always before did steady to shot shortly after sit to whistle in the yard. I got this dog at 8 months old in late August. He was a big and long chaser. I started the sit to shot in the yard and sit to flush about the same time, first in the yard with flyers then to the training field. He seemed to be catching on well so I made too big of a jump and tried to steady him and have him sit to shot both in the training field. He begin to shut down, so I made the decision I wanted him steady to flush for the fall hunting season and would pick up sit to shot after season. I figured it would be easier to get the sit to shot down latter than it would to steady to flush after a full hunting season. One of the decisions a hunter with limited dogs makes. I have tried to make this "stream crossing" as short a step as possible.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Well now we have our dogs steadied and quartering and retrieveing, may be not in that order. How do we brace them up? When hunting with friends and their dogs or hunting alone with more than one dog
> Do we spread out or do we pack in allow things to happen?
> Do the standards prevail or do we as a client once said turn'em all loose and run a "rope -a dope"! Just his term for pure pandamonium and excitment.


Complex answer. When I hunt with 2 other people and 2 dogs we like to use the typical spaniel brace work with one dog on each beat and with the wings having the freedom to take the dog with or without center gun on a runner. This is the best of the best and what we really like to train for. 

If 2 of us take a brace such as Karen and I or a friend and I we try to each have a dog hunt in front of us. We may get a bit farther apart than usual 2 person spacing. With 2 experienced dogs this doesn't work too bad. With one experinced dog and one rowdy dog it isn't too bad and used to "experience" the rowdy dog. We don't attempt it with 2 rowdy dogs unless we want a "free-for-all" hunt.

When I hunt alone and take 2 dogs I like to heel one and hunt one. Heeled dog gets the retrieve. I use this in hot weather to spell dogs when they start to get hot, or to do a real long hunt that might be too much for one dog.

I do sometimes just let them both go for a free-for-all. Usually it is when I only have 45 minutes for a hunt and 2 "wound up" dogs. It is as much exercise as a typical hunt. This does lead to problems as does most hunting when you get a little lax with the sit to flush because you couldn't see them, same with sit to shot and same for hunting to the gun vs just out hunting.

These are some of the big reasons I train steady to flush and shot. I've never run a trial and run very few Hunt Tests. I am simialr to The Doob except do very little waterfowl anymore. Welcome to the spaniel thread Dale. Good luck with Sully


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## I'm with Brandy

> gundogguy;4168365]If hunting is available how many contacts without a retrieve or shot will help improve the flushing spaniels? Range? responsiveness?


Depends on the dog and at what level of training. Some dogs learn fast some take longer.



> One of the techniques used on young spaniels, pre-steadied or even newly steadied is to roll training birds in closed to the handler as a way to conditon the dog into think that birds are close to the boss and help reduce the tendency to run big, there for reducing the punching out, thinking that the birds are down field or just plain out of gun range.
> How much wild bird training is enough conditioning for the dog to understand that enviroment?


I use that method too, but I use another method that I like better. It does require a dog that is steady to gun fire. Let the dog push out when the dog gets out past the range you want them, toss either a dead bird or a shot flyer back behind you and shoot. You can use the sit whistle if you need it. The dog does not get the retrieve you or a helper gets the retrieve. Bring the dog back to you and then send them back to work. All the fun is going on back here not way out there. 

I also use this method for training healing in the field. Tell the dog to heal once, if they start to range out do as above dog does not get retrieve. Tell them to heal and try again. When the dog starts healing where it needs to be then you can reward with a walkup.


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## Steelheadfred

I'm with Brandy said:


> Yes if you can't run fast enough to get within gun range.


Nothing to do with running more to do with shooting , tracking, handling. Any time an in range flusher can put a bird (grouse) to air to fast?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> For me it's pretty simple. I shoot for about once a week this time of year and I understand it isn't doing the spaniel much good in training other than conditioning and getting a fly away. I used to think I could fire of the blank gun but I'm not quick enough in mind or body to pull that off, so just stick to the whistle. When it gets closer to Sept. 15th I try for twice a week. The whole time I spend the other 5 or 6 days training here at my training grounds. By doing this I can roll in flyers or clips depending on my objectives and try to keep the control in the spaniels. The biggest reason I go out is to scout for hunting areas and new huning areas.
> 
> I use the rolled in birds on my experienced dogs throughout this time of year after running on wild birds just to keep it in thier mind where the action is.
> 
> I have taken 2 different trained spaniels that had never been on a wild bird in their first 2-3 years and shot birds over them the first time out and had them retrieving woodcock the first trip. I think grouse and woodcock are pretty easy for spaniels to handle as long as they have a strong flush and put the bird in the air quickly.* Probably 10-15 contacts and they figure out grouse. They aren't holding them on point, just* getting them in the air as quick as possible. The biggest thing for them to figure out is that grouse diddle around, fly up sit in a tree a while, jump back down diddle around again. A spaniel that is trained amoung other dogs has to learn to pass by unproductive scents pretty early in training and has little trouble with that in the wild. Now pheasant are another story, it took them a a few hunts to really figure their tricks out.
> 
> The heat is bad up here too, but I have to 9:00-9:30am. Evenings are too hot here. Water work is the only daytime work. Yes keep an eye on the temps. At the NARC last month we had lots of dogs overheating on a upper 70's day on the land series, some needed vet attention! Be careful, it happens very fast.


 
Your schedule seems very reasonable. With strong genes thoughtful training and preparation, It would not take many contacts to give a finished dog a sense of how to handle wild birds in cover. Redundancy is something that need not take place learning process of a good spaniel.
10-15 contacts spread over a few months would be about what it would take..

Stan
What size shot do you use on those ticks? He he he:lol:


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## Steelheadfred

Does anyone think flushing dogs can work birds for the gun not just to put them in the air. No right or wrong answer.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Depends on the dog and at what level of training. Some dogs learn fast some take longer.
> 
> 
> 
> I use that method too, but I use another method that I like better. It does require a dog that is steady to gun fire. Let the dog push out when the dog gets out past the range you want them, toss either a dead bird or a shot flyer back behind you and shoot. You can use the sit whistle if you need it. The dog does not get the retrieve you or a helper gets the retrieve. Bring the dog back to you and then send them back to work. All the fun is going on back here not way out there.
> 
> *I also use this method for training healing in the field. Tell the dog to heal once, if they start to range out do as above dog does not get retrieve. Tell them to heal and try again. When the dog starts healing where it needs to be then you can reward with a walkup. *




Denial of the big reward is always a strong motivator!!!

It's that way with praise, how could my words be more motivating than what me dog just did..I mean after a great find strong flush steady to wing and shot ..the release... a spot on mark and a presentation delivery..how could "a aw that's a good dog" seem more important to the dog than the trills of what he just went through when he was dominating the prey!


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Does anyone think flushing dogs can work birds for the gun not just to put them in the air. No right or wrong answer.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


That dog would find himself in a rescue program in a New York second, 
We call that blinking!:yikes::yikes:

Not something that I would want to be known for as a breeder!!


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## I'm with Brandy

Steelheadfred said:


> Nothing to do with running more to do with shooting , tracking, handling. Any time an in range flusher can put a bird (grouse) to air to fast?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I was just picking at you Fritz. 

I know you asked Steve this question, but I say no. Never a time when a bird is flushed to fast.


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Nothing to do with running more to do with shooting , tracking, handling. Any time an in range flusher can put a bird (grouse) to air to fast?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 
Are you guys running with loaded guns??????? shame shame


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## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> That dog would find himself in a rescue program in a New York second,
> We call that blinking!:yikes::yikes:
> 
> Not something that I would want to be known for as a breeder!!


Please define blinking. 



RH


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## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> Are you guys running with loaded guns??????? shame shame


No, never, we have dogs with controls. I knew Doug was tounge in cheek with his comment but it extended an opportunity to further discuss. 

I have two dogs with very different styles of working birds. Curious to learn about speed to birds, cause wild birds don't all act the same. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## I'm with Brandy

Steelheadfred said:


> Does anyone think flushing dogs can work birds for the gun not just to put them in the air. No right or wrong answer.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Tracking is tracking and that speed is different than flushing speed. I would say from my experience when the dog is tracking a bird and it becomes aware that the bird is within catching range the dog picks up speed going in on the bird.  
Now the following goes to what Hal talked about earlier; Brandy has learned by experience that there is no reward if I am not there. So she will often look to see where I am seconds before she flushes a bird she has been tracking. If you watch that video from Iowa I mentioned in the video to the other hunters when she sprung up to locate me that she thought she was close to the bird. She seems to do this only on birds she has tracked for a long distance. And I have learned it is my Q to get my gun up. Hmm who is training who here. Either way it has made us more successful at taking birds. 
[ame="http://s399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/Cherry_pics/Iowa%2011%203%202010/Iowa%202010%20Videos/?action=view&current=20101106_100022_0001.mp4"]Iowa 2010 Videos :: 20101106_100022_0001.mp4 video by Cherry_pics - Photobucket[/ame]

Firtz,
I know what you are asking but I don't think it has to do with speed of flush. There have been times when Brandy has been tracking a running bird primarily woodcock, when she gets close to the bird just be for she flushes the bird she looks at me and then charges in hard. It is like she is using me to put pressure on the bird to force it to flush. Maybe it is just a perception on my part maybe not. You and I have talked about this before because we have both seen similar flushes from our dogs where it seems the dog attempts to flush the bird at us. I don't think it makes the act of flushing slower but maybe the direction the dog comes at the bird may be more calculated. You have seen the videos of Brandy on a runner in cover she tries to get the bird to flush but the bird keeps out manuvering her so she leaps out of the cover and comes down on the bird to add more pressure. Here is a video of that and what looks like Brandy driving a runner back to me. This was a pen raised bird. [ame="http://s399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/Cherry_pics/Hunting%20Videos/?action=view&current=20100912_111950_0001.mp4"]Hunting Videos :: 20100912_111950_0001.mp4 video by Cherry_pics - Photobucket[/ame]


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## Steelheadfred

Doug, I guess I'm considering the track and working of a bird as an aspect of the flush, and others might not be. Just like I think you need to expose a dog to 300 contacts as a youngster before a dog starts, in your words "hunting birds not just flushing them." In terms of maintenance for adults, I think of it as more conditioning and there of a point of deminishing returns and become scouting missions as much as hunting.



Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> Please define blinking.
> 
> 
> 
> RH


*Avoidance* of the bird is what defines blinking and there may be many degrees of blinking 

SHF"Does anyone think flushing dogs can work birds for the gun not just to put them in the air. No right or wrong answer."

If the flushing dog is working birds for the gun it must put them in the air.
Now the bird can run out ahead and volunteer and so the dog does not get the opportunity to flush, but that is a different situation.


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Doug, I guess I'm considering the track and working of a bird as an aspect of the flush, and others might not be. Just like I think you need to expose a dog to *300 contacts* as a youngster before a dog starts, in your words "hunting birds not just flushing them." In terms of maintenance for adults, I think of it as more conditioning and there of a point of deminishing returns and become scouting missions as much as hunting.
> 
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Where does this 300 bird contact thing come from?


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## Steelheadfred

I'll share some of my experience and maybe Duece22's can comment on his experience over his dogs. 

I have two dogs with enough experience to comment. Steve and I will disagree on number of contacts for a flushing dog that will excel on grouse, I think Steve mentioned some aspects of birds that flitter around from tree to food sight to tree, or loafing cover and that presents some challenges for grouse dogs. 

My older dog Hilde who is now retired: Her goal was to put birds in the air as fast as possible, she found scent and her life revolved around blowing it up, she is also a strong quartering dog. She excelled in September and early October, when the birds were young and dumb, and had the security of lots of cover, later in the year when the leaves came down her best covers were mono culture spots. 

My Bella dog, in her prime right now, getting ready to start her 8th season. She works birds differently, she maintains a very strong flush when it is time to close, but she has a much better understanding of where I am in relationship to the bird on the ground, she adjusts her range and pattern to the cover type and time of the year. She shines in what I call the "real season" of Mid October to the end of the season when the cover starts to come down, birds are all educated and they like to run. She is an objective seeker when it calls for and will apply a quartering pattern in mono culture covers. She simply has the ability to keep birds on the ground till they make a mistake, she knows the right distance to work a bird from.

See what I don't understand about only 15 contacts to figure out grouse is this (maybe there is difference between tracking and flushing but I see it all as the same act, you can see it how you want); IME grouse flush when they get a safe distance from the pursuit, a dog that is to slow on small amounts of scent that grouse leave (compared to pheasants and on average over the course of a season), that grouse will run out and flush to safety, but sometimes a dog that just blows things up does not always move the bird to the gunner and just bombs it out for the sake of bombing it out, this is works great IMO for pheasants and early season grouse. A flushing dog that knows how to work birds for the gun, understands birds escape tactics, and works small amounts of scent is a productive dog IMO. The other aspects of 15 contacts (not maintenance) but actual development of a young grouse dog, and this is my opinion, and Steve is a very experienced hunter who has demonstrated he prefers a bit different pattern than I do and is successful, but to my eye, there are so many other variables that impact finding and handling grouse over the course of the season, scenting conditions, moisture, cover types, the pattern birds are using that impact how many contacts it takes a dog to truly become a season long dog through out the prime of it's life and handling birds. It's why I don't think you can take a western pheasant dog and expect them on day one in the Great Lakes Woods to be as good as the home grown grouse dogs. But I think the transition the other way is easier.

When they were both in the their prime, I had a pretty effective team in which each dog excelled in different types of covers and conditions.











Hal,

At the end of the day, when I say 300 contacts it stems from the following, I see my dogs bird handling and understanding of birds increase with time, they continue to improve and improve till they reach a point of saturation and then we just enter maintenance, and in my experience of spending 100+ days a year in the grouse woods and developing four upland retrievers, I can tell you on a time line of ages and contacts when I feel they start to work birds with more understanding than just "blowing them up." What I mean by this is the days when they struggle start to go away, they have enough experience to adjust to the conditions, time of year and cover. They are wild birds, and things change, the dog has to have the experience through contacts to adjust on the fly and continue to be productive, it takes lots of contacts to do this IMO.


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## N M Mechanical

I believe it takes at least 300 contacts I have always said 500 but I will see with the lab this year on the contacts if it changes. Any dog can find and handle sept grouse for the gun. Now when the "Real Season" begins and you have too swallow the whistle and the dog with the higher number of contacts really shines
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> I believe it takes at least 300 contacts I have always said 500 but I will see with the lab this year on the contacts if it changes. Any dog can find and handle sept grouse for the gun. Now when the "Real Season" begins and you have too swallow the whistle and the dog with the higher number of contacts really shines
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Nick,

If XXX number of contacts was not the case, I'd be a happy guy, cause that would mean my 14 month old puppy, with about 75 contacts would be as good as her mamma and daddy and Uncle Duece this season, we will find out I promise you that, but I have my doubts. I do think she has a chance to be a very good one though, but I see her right now as more of the blow it up dog, which is fine, I'll just pick spots to suit her best and hopefully give her enough exposure that she learns to adjust. Gonna be fun I promise that also. And NO, Kenny can't tap that.


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Where does this 300 bird contact thing come from?


Hal,

The arbitrary number of "500 grouse contacts to make a great grouse dog" is a quote which originally came from Burton Spiller or William Harden Foster or George Bird Evans back in the day. And they were talking about pointing dogs, not flushing dogs.

It has been misquoted and misunderstood for decades now, particularly on internet boards like this one. 

That arbitrary number of 500 or 300 contacts or whatever number has little, if any relevance to a discussion of flushing dog work in the grouse woods. Given a decent training program to start them out. But what do I know, I've only been at this for half a century.

NB


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> *Steve is a very experienced hunter who has demonstrated he prefers a bit different pattern than I do and is successful, but to my eye, there are so many other variables that impact finding and handling grouse over the course of the season*,""
> 
> 
> There in lies the whole situation, Steve and a number of other folks have spaniels they donot have cover dog retrievers (CDR's)
> Retrievers have a different learning curve and behaviors than do spaniels It is not a better or worse, the learning curve it is just different.
> 
> Personally if I owned a spaniel that took that many birds to get to the top of their game I would look for a new blood line or a develop new training techniques. I could easily trained 3 spaniels well on that many birds.
> 
> *Natty Bumpo *Thanks I was aware of the Birdy Evans or Spillars pointing dog thought process. They were mostly romantics and abound with nostalgia.
> As I have said to you before, and I am sincere, best of luck with your *CDR's*, but you and yours, experiences will not change 200 years of flushing dog convention and tradition. The reason you cannot change it is you have no way to pass it on to the masses of average joe blow hunters. Have you giving any thought to forming an association of flushing cover dog retrievers society??
> 
> Chuck Goodall, Ken Roebuck, Kieth Erlandson and folks like them have made a system that 1000's of people the world over use every day in the development of the flushing spaniel. It's simple and it works.
> Those 3 innovators have passed on yet their programs are alive every day in working spaniels


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## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> Steelheadfred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Steve is a very experienced hunter who has demonstrated he prefers a bit different pattern than I do and is successful, but to my eye, there are so many other variables that impact finding and handling grouse over the course of the season*,""
> 
> 
> There in lies the whole situation, Steve and a number of other folks have spaniels they donot have cover dog retrievers (CDR's)
> Retrievers have a different learning curve and behaviors than do spaniels It is not a better or worse, the learning curve it is just different.
> 
> Personally if I owned a spaniel that took that many birds to get to the top of their game I would look for a new blood line or a develop new training techniques. I could easily trained 3 spaniels well on that many birds.
> 
> *Natty Bumpo *Thanks I was aware of the Birdy Evans or Spillars pointing dog thought process. They were mostly romantics and abound with nostalgia.
> As I have said to you before, and I am sincere, best of luck with your *CDR's*, but you and yours, experiences will not change 200 years of flushing dog convention and tradition. The reason you cannot change it is you have no way to pass it on to the masses of average joe blow hunters. Have you giving any thought to forming an association of flushing cover dog retrievers society??
> 
> Chuck Goodall, Ken Roebuck, Kieth Erlandson and folks like them have made a system that 1000's of people the world over use every day in the development of the flushing spaniel. It's simple and it works.
> Those 3 innovators have passed on yet their programs are alive every day in working spaniels
> 
> 
> 
> Hal, how long do you think it takes to get 300 contacts? And at what age are you saying your dogs will know how to handle wild birds in various conditions,habitat,species, time of year consistently and effectively the majority of the time making very few mistakes?
> 
> 
> RH
Click to expand...


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## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> Thank-God for that!! Please donot encourage them to change what they are doing.. the Spaniel Clan does not need popularity, it only lowers the standards and allows the undesirables in the culture.
> The culture is under attack all the time and breeds of spaniel are only deminished because of it


So nothing to do with picking the best breed for the job? 


RH


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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> An interesting debate would go as follows:
> 
> How many days a year do you shoot 3 grouse a day?
> 
> When you go out west (ND,SD,KS,What used to be Iowa, NE), how many days do you shoot 3 pheasants?


What does that have to do with "difficulty for dog to handle"? There are probably 50 roosters in a given 3 hour hunt and maybe 15 grouse. Not talking about difficulty in shooting. If we are talking difficulty in shooting, for me it is woodcock in good woodcock cover with my 28 gauge, not particularly difficult for the dog though. These are all personal opinions, sorry not all agree with you! I do believe grouse are tougher for CDR's:evil:.



Duece22 said:


> If this is the case than why do most of the western wild pheasant operations run labs and various pointing breeds instead of spaniels?
> RH


I guess it is too dificult for spaniels:evilsmile
Why are there SOOOoo many more pointing dogs used for grouse than labs? 



gundogguy said:


> Thank-God for that!! Please donot encourage them to change what they are doing.. the Spaniel Clan does not need popularity, it only lowers the standards and allows the undesirables in the culture.
> The culture is under attack all the time and breeds of spaniel are only deminished because of it


+1  Maybe we're giving out too much info on "The Spaniel Corner"."


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## Duece22

dauber said:


> Why are there SOOOoo many more pointing dogs used for grouse than labs?
> ."


Because a lab is not the best grouse dog available, a variety of well bred pointing dogs are with the English setter probably topping the list" 




RH


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## Steelheadfred

dauber said:


> What does that have to do with "difficulty for dog to handle"? There are probably 50 roosters in a given 3 hour hunt and maybe 15 grouse. Not talking about difficulty in shooting. If we are talking difficulty in shooting, for me it is woodcock in good woodcock cover with my 28 gauge, not particularly difficult for the dog though. These are all personal opinions, sorry not all agree with you! I do believe grouse are tougher for CDR's:evil:.


I did not say one way or the other I just said I thought it would be interesting, I realize when your dog is only 30lbs those cattails can be hell out in NoDak :evil:. 




> Why are there SOOOoo many more pointing dogs used for grouse than labs?


It's a good thing they all believe what they read in the books and are helpless romantics:yikes:, if not there would be far less grouse for flushing breeds of all lines and methods; not just the highly dysfunctional CDR, can we change the name to Cover Dog Labs? I don't want to associate Swamp Collies, Flat Irons, and Afro Retrievers with our elusive strain, and when you think we can get Pointing Lab prices for CDLs?





> +1  Maybe we're giving out too much info on "The Spaniel Corner"."


I doubt it, there so few any news is good news....:help:


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## N M Mechanical

I am glad training birds killed or flushed counts and means the same as wild birds
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> I am glad training birds killed or flushed counts and means the same as wild birds
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



SHUT IT MOE - Don't you have some porky quills to pull out of some Rat Bastard German Dog!


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## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> SHUT IT MOE - Don't you have some porky quills to pull out of some Rat Bastard German Dog!


No not yet.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Steelheadfred said:


> An interesting debate would go as follows:
> 
> How many days a year do you shoot 3 grouse a day?
> 
> When you go out west (ND,SD,KS,What used to be Iowa, NE), how many days do you shoot 3 pheasants?


Fritz,

Q #1- Only when the grouse are very unlucky or I am very lucky!

Q #2- I can speak only for SoDak. It depends very much on the year. For several years leading up to 2009, bird pops were the best since the late 50's. Everybody we hunted with limited practically every day, sometimes only hunting a couple of hours. It was good times in pheasant country.

Then in '09 and 2010, where we hunt, the fields were flooded well into December and Jan. Some corn never did get harvested those years. Birds fly into the standing corn and stayed there all day. We were left with hunting ditches next to corn fields and pass shooting birds right at dark going to roost. Tough hunting. We killed limits 75% of the days we hunted.

A late winter blizzard in March of 2010 killed many birds with few energy reserves going into spring. The birds bounced right back in 2011, hunting was rated good for all but the most anal retentive personalities.The hatch looks better for 2012.

NB


----------



## I'm with Brandy

I said this in another post about Grouse and someone asked why I even bother to hunt. Out west or indiana on the family farm I don't find pheasant hunting hard from the dogs prespective. The only dragon out west is the cover that rips the eyelids off my dog's face and makes her nose look like a dried prune after several days of hunting. As far as my part of the job finding land that holds pheasants is harder than grouse for me (probably because I have time to scout here) and hitting grouse is harder than pheasants. Recovering wonded birds harder with the pheasants but if the dog is given enough time to do its job and the bird stays on poperty I have access because she never trespasses  we will recover our bird. Brandy takes no 5hit from birds. I have seen her drop her shoulder and run over standing ducks.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I said this in another post about Grouse and someone asked why I even bother to hunt. Out west or indiana on the family farm I don't find pheasant hunting hard from the dogs prespective. The only dragon out west is the cover that rips the eyelids off my dog's face and makes her nose look like a dried prune after several days of hunting. As far as my part of the job finding land that holds pheasants is harder than grouse for me (probably because I have time to scout here) and hitting grouse is harder than pheasants. Recovering wonded birds harder with the pheasants but if the dog is given enough time to do its job and the bird stays on poperty I have access because she never trespasses  we will recover our bird. Brandy takes no 5hit from birds. I have seen her drop her shoulder and run over standing ducks.


 
Very spanielly, she sticks her head right into her where it is suppose to be. Eval dogs and pups "courage in the face of heavy cover" a very number of birds will get release in the briar patches just to condition dogs for just such work.. Dogs that actually catch birds in the briars are always judged higher for their courage


----------



## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> So nothing to do with picking the best breed for the job?
> 
> 
> RH


That's right! Thanks for joining in Duece. Glad to have a non-spaniel guy aboard!


----------



## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> That's right! Thanks for joining in Duece. Glad to have a non-spaniel guy aboard!


Huh. Awkward evasive response again. 


RH


----------



## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> Huh. Awkward evasive response again.
> 
> 
> RH


Aw isn't that special! Did you have anymore questions about blinking?


----------



## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> Aw isn't that special! Did you have anymore questions about blinking?


No. (see how that works to answer a question presented to you?) 


RH


----------



## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> I did not say one way or the other I just said I thought it would be interesting, I realize when your dog is only 30lbs those cattails can be hell out in NoDak :evil:.
> 
> It's a good thing they all believe what they read in the books and are helpless romantics:yikes:, if not there would be far less grouse for flushing breeds of all lines and methods; not just the highly dysfunctional CDR, can we change the name to Cover Dog Labs? I don't want to associate Swamp Collies, Flat Irons, and Afro Retrievers with our elusive strain, and when you think we can get Pointing Lab prices for CDLs?
> 
> 
> I doubt it, there so few any news is good news....:help:


 
Perfect! Just the attidude I like out there about spaniels. FYI the owners go in head first too!


----------



## Paco

This all sounds vaguely familiar to a thread last summer, just different types of upland dogs. So how about settling it. Bring it to the line. 
Flushing dog Challenge - The Fabulous Heller Boys and "Team Flushing Labs" against Hals Heroes and "Team Spaniel Culture" ...
Just an idea and with that I will exit stage left. ; ).....and maybe lurk a little bit. 
Have fun.


----------



## N M Mechanical

No this one has went much longer and no one has been banded or willing to fight
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dauber

Enough fun for the day, back to some spaniel pics. I've been looking thru the old pictures we still have since losing most this spring when the computer died. My backup skills were quite sporatic. Here's a few from various cocker Nationals.

This is the 2006 Cocker Nationals, Fred Bradley is the handler, I don't remeber the dog. Judges were Paul McGagh and Janet Christenson. I believe it was the 4th series and he was about to run. 










2007 Nationals, Ernie running Tweed. Martin Bell and Mark Schinderle were judges. This is the woods series.










This is just down the course Ernie and Tweed are running. I believe Tweed gets tossed after 3 retrieves when she crosses the center line. Correction: Karen says it was Kobe that got tossed for poaching, Tweed just didn't quite make the 5th, cumulative.










This woods series was a zoo, chukar were used, it was getting late in the day and they started to covey. Birds were flying and dropping all over the place. Great fun to watch, I imagine terrible to run.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Steve,

You still have the old hard drive?

Use one of these drives it is as simple as it can get to backup.

http://reviews.cnet.com/external-ha...0_7-34026569.html?tag=comparable;comparable.1


----------



## dauber

Doug, I think we may still have it. We now have 2 external hard drives, one with set up with auto-backup, the other I manually do every month, for now. I'm sort of a head first guy that don't look back too much, and Karen is nodding YES!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> Doug, I think we may still have it. We now have 2 external hard drives, one with set up with auto-backup, the other I manually do every month, for now. I'm sort of a head first guy that don't look back too much, and Karen is nodding YES!


Did you have someone look at the old drive? Do you know why it died. If its the controller card on the drive I have old controller cards. I might have a match for it.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Very spanielly, she sticks her head right into her where it is suppose to be. Eval dogs and pups "courage in the face of heavy cover" a very number of birds will get release in the briar patches just to condition dogs for just such work.. Dogs that actually catch birds in the briars are always judged higher for their courage


Hal,

Her eyes get so torn up every morning they are sealed shut. I have to place wet compress on her eyes for a few minutes so she can open them. 

Here is another scary badge of honor. She is going to be one used dog when she is old.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Enough fun for the day, back to some spaniel pics. I've been looking thru the old pictures we still have since losing most this spring when the computer died. My backup skills were quite sporatic. Here's a few from various cocker Nationals.
> 
> This is the 2006 Cocker Nationals, Fred Bradley is the handler, I don't remeber the dog. Judges were Paul McGagh and Janet Christenson. I believe it was the 4th series and he was about to run.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2007 Nationals, Ernie running Tweed. Martin Bell and Mark Schinderle were judges. This is the woods series.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is just down the course Ernie and Tweed are running. I believe Tweed gets tossed after 3 retrieves when she crosses the center line. Correction: Karen says it was Kobe that got tossed for poaching, Tweed just didn't quite make the 5th, cumulative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This woods series was a zoo, chukar were used, it was getting late in the day and they started to covey. Birds were flying and dropping all over the place. Great fun to watch, I imagine terrible to run.


Absolutely great photo's Long time since i had seen Mark S. forgot he had judged 07. I cannot tell you how many times I tried to buy that Tweed dog.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Hal,
> 
> Her eyes get so torn up every morning they are sealed shut. I have to place wet compress on her eyes for a few minutes so she can open them.
> 
> Here is another scary badge of honor. She is going to be one used dog when she is old.


 
Just doing her Job!! She is a good employee


----------



## gundogguy

Nice little training video of the Breed.. Field Spaniel


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Nice little training video of the Breed.. Field Spaniel


 
Nice to see some Fieldy's up at that level! Thanks for posting Hal.


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Hal,
> 
> Her eyes get so torn up every morning they are sealed shut. I have to place wet compress on her eyes for a few minutes so she can open them.
> 
> Here is another scary badge of honor. She is going to be one used dog when she is old.


Now that's a face to love!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Just doing her Job!! She is a good employee


OMG! I was feeling kind of sorry for poor, little Brandy all covered in blood until I realized she's still smiling.


----------



## dauber

Here are a few pictures of last weekends training. This setup is about an 80 yard mark with cover changing from tall ferns to open to tall ferns, then there is a mowed trail you cannot see and more ferns. Ruger the lab is retrieving and Dante is honoring. 










Smoke coming back on a retrieve.










Dante coming back on a retrieve.










The day's training crew.


----------



## JAM

Good looking training group you've got there, Dauber.


----------



## dauber

Thanks. That little fella's hup isn't too bad but his stay isn't quite where we want it yet.


----------



## JAM

We have been struggling with steadiness. Today was a successful training day. Stormy remained steady after a nice flush, shot and fall - hupped until sent. YIPPEE! He trapped his second bird and we quit on a positive note.

He was more steady as a pup than he is now. I hope to have that corrected soon. Trial season is within sight!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> We have been struggling with steadiness. Today was a successful training day. Stormy remained steady after a nice flush, shot and fall - hupped until sent. YIPPEE! He trapped his second bird and we quit on a positive note.
> 
> He was more steady as a pup than he is now. I hope to have that corrected soon. Trial season is within sight!


Good job Stormy!! and you too JAM!! Now for it to become habit.  When is the Tilden Valley trial?


----------



## JAM

We're hoping to do more training this year than years past. One of my training partners retired this year and that makes things very convenient. We can train during the week - not just weekends.

Tilden Valley's trial is Sept. 22&23 - usually held in Florence, WI - Shady Game Farm. If the cover is adequate, that's where it'll be again this year. Maybe you and Karen can check it out if you're not too busy chasing grouse and WC. 

A lot of the trialers love to run their dogs in our trial and then hunt grouse on their way home. It's the perfect time of year for both.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> We're hoping to do more training this year than years past. One of my training partners retired this year and that makes things very convenient. We can train during the week - not just weekends.
> 
> Tilden Valley's trial is Sept. 22&23 - usually held in Florence, WI - Shady Game Farm. If the cover is adequate, that's where it'll be again this year. Maybe you and Karen can check it out if you're not too busy chasing grouse and WC.
> 
> A lot of the trialers love to run their dogs in our trial and then hunt grouse on their way home. It's the perfect time of year for both.


Darn, that's the same weekend as the cocker trial down at Constantine then we are grouse hunting our way back north. Is there another trial in northern Wisconsin?


----------



## I'm with Brandy

JAM said:


> OMG! I was feeling kind of sorry for poor, little Brandy all covered in blood until I realized she's still smiling.


She looks like the joker from batman. Put her up in the car bleeding like that once and she had a fit about being put up. I came back and the inside of the door was covered in blood from the barking. Now I just make her take a break and drink cold water typically stops in a few minutes and were back to work.

Hope the steadiness, sticks.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Darn, that's the same weekend as the cocker trial down at Constantine then we are grouse hunting our way back north. Is there another trial in northern Wisconsin?


Dauber,

That figures, hey? The other WI ESS trials are farther south than the T.V. 

Have fun at the cocker trial!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

This falls under other uses for a springer spaniel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqlVtK6uaII&feature=youtu.be







Okay the new side adds are really screwing up my browser window. Just for that I won't shop at Overton's ever again.


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> This falls under other uses for a springer spaniel.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqlVtK6uaII&feature=youtu.be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay the new side adds are really screwing up my browser window. Just for that I won't shop at Overton's ever again.


Very nice! I think I recognize that place Thanks for posting.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> This falls under other uses for a springer spaniel.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqlVtK6uaII&feature=youtu.be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay the new side adds are really screwing up my browser window. Just for that I won't shop at Overton's ever again.


Nifty montage! You all are quite talented with the camera and the photoshop, thanks for sharing!


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## gundogguy

New pup on the horizon! Here are the players in the mix!
FC/CFC Salmy's MasterPiece X Buccleuch Thistle


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> New pup on the horizon! Here are the players in the mix!
> FC/CFC Salmy's MasterPiece X Buccleuch Thistle


Nice looking pup Hal!! 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> New pup on the horizon! Here are the players in the mix!
> FC/CFC Salmy's MasterPiece X Buccleuch Thistle


Good looking pup. Nice flush!


----------



## Jim58

gundogguy said:


> New pup on the horizon! Here are the players in the mix!
> FC/CFC Salmy's MasterPiece X Buccleuch Thistle


Very nice! What's the timing?


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Wonderful bloodlines. Hope she's all you are wishing for Hal.

NB


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> New pup on the horizon! Here are the players in the mix!
> FC/CFC Salmy's MasterPiece X Buccleuch Thistle


 
Oh yea! Very nice looking pupil.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Oh yea! Very nice looking pupil.


LOL Here's my draft pick for 2012 Tails will be done today!!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> LOL Here's my draft pick for 2012 Tails will be done today!!


Hal who's the breeder? Nancy pick out a name yet? 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Hal who's the breeder? Nancy pick out a name yet?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Frank Wiseman (Ontario) owns Cliff the sire
Alex Kerr owns Thistle, dam imported her from the UK
Mike Wallace trains and handles

something legend of Zorro- Zeta Zorro Grand sire on Cliff s side
Only a few dogs that could run the table like Zorro!


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

Hope to have a nice liter of springer pups in early Sept. Will know in about 22 days if U/S confirms. 

Regards
JT
www.marshhawkretrievers.com


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Frank Wiseman (Ontario) owns Cliff the sire
> Alex Kerr owns Thistle, dam imported her from the UK
> Mike Wallace trains and handles
> 
> something legend of Zorro- Zeta Zorro Grand sire on Cliff s side
> Only a few dogs that could run the table like Zorro!


Great!!! Good luck with the new pup I'm sure you'll make him into a winner!! 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Freestone

It's fun watching them develop from birth to the time you get to take him home. Keep the pics coming.


----------



## gundogguy

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hope to have a nice liter of springer pups in early Sept. Will know in about 22 days if U/S confirms.
> 
> Regards
> JT
> www.marshhawkretrievers.com


 
Hey Jeff
Nice to hear from you! What you really should do is put that info in the classifieds.

Best of fortunes with HRC


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

Hi Hal

Been a long time. Hope you are doing well.

Regards
JT
www.marshhawkretrievers.com


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> 2007 Nationals, Ernie running Tweed. *Martin Bell* and Mark Schinderle were judges. This is the woods series.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dauber
> Any word on Martin Bell an what he is up to these days?


----------



## dauber

I believe he runs very few trials nowadays. He is concientrating on their obedience bussiness in Texas. He doesn't field train professioanlly any longer. He is a very good handler and was fun to watch run dogs. Plus he always went out of his way to thank the bird planters (even if we were doing a crappy job).


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I believe he runs very few trials nowadays. He is concientrating on their obedience bussiness in Texas. He doesn't field train professioanlly any longer. He is a very good handler and was fun to watch run dogs. Plus he always went out of his way to thank the bird planters (even if we were doing a crappy job).


Thanks Daub, Martin was a good bloke and he always brought well prepared dogs to the table. and he was an excellent shot as well. 
I gun with him in Texas back 00 or 01


Nick Sisley had an article in this months Gundog, great subject David Lissett workshop's in PA at lavier's place.
Poor Sisley he thought all of what Lissett is doing is new.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

I agree..I have two springers from Rockriver Kennels. I am really happy with both. I just bred one puppies due in September.


----------



## gundogguy

Jeffrey Towler said:


> I agree..I have two springers from Rockriver Kennels. I am really happy with both. I just bred one puppies due in September.


Rock River Rocky Bernie Rupp handler Jeff Schwartz trainer
posted before however this is a good vid

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYh7PY4dM-A&feature=related"]Hunting English Springer Spaniel Rock River Rockin&#39; The Field "Rocky" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Jeff long time. Hope you are well and the dogs too. I have not seen you since I ran seasoned back in 2008.

Well trained dog in that video Hal. I liked the quartering distance too.

Not sure what all was going on with the bird coming out of the water. Maybe it was a nasty bird. I recommend doing what the retriever folks do. Teach the dog a command to shake off and don't let them shake off until after they deliver the bird.

Brandy likes to do some little water retrieves. A little video from this past saturday. Wish I could have the entire run but the file was to big to uplaod. Going to have to find a better video format. Sorry I tilt my head. Great day we all had a blast and the dogs had fun keeping cool.

[ame="http://s399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/Cherry_pics/Training%20Videos/?action=view&current=20120714_120619_0001_0001.mp4"]Training Videos :: 20120714_120619_0001_0001.mp4 video by Cherry_pics - Photobucket[/ame]


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I missed every one of them:help:. One actually fell to the ground and started flopping around so I broke the OU and bent down to grab it and it come back to it's senses and flew off, I quickly closed the gun and missed! Others have hit it with their wings and not fell to the ground, I missed one and the other fly at my wife and couldn't shoot.
> 
> *That is a nice picture of Brandy and mess of grouse*!


 
+1 My eyes glaze over a little bit when the conversation and the spin tries to give me the impression that the RG is so wiley. and you have to have a wild bird hunting dog to find and kill'em. Cripe sakes I've had the darn things run between me legs and still recovered for the shot.
But any way me spaniels and I will put some pressure on them, and make'em fly. Real soon in covert near you!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Near me? Haha, I'll let a few go so yous guys can find one or two
> 
> Got a barn full of birds to train on now so there will be a load of shooting going on just north of Engadine, maybe get the smoker going too.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

I have a trip coming up to WI, I will keep the windows rolled down and listen for gun shots mark it on my GPS.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Yes Hal we have noticed this too. 10 years ago it took much longer to run the trial since many of the dogs took so long to find the bird, but the bird planter had more rest time. That has been one of the biggest improvement on cockers recently.


Actually the improvements began before that 10year mark.
And although the Openshaws had some influence the reall factor is the age old one called 'competition". The stuff that like heat and fire tempers steal.Competition is the element that pushes people sometimes without their knowledge to strive for the elusive higher standards.
In the All-age stakes titled dogs run against untitled dogs and vice versa. It is through this interaction that unproven become "tempered"
and the titled dog demonstrates it's mettle and pushes the envelop of upland behavior.
The cross polination of training techniques between the Springer world and the Cocker world had tremendous impact.
Quite honestly and it cannot be proved when the Cocker world move to using pheasants as a bird that had to be found,flushed, and retrieved with manners, great changes took place in the breed and it's ensuing improvements around the fall of the shot bird.
As for training I have always believed that the use of pigeons have helped my own personal dogs mark pheasants so well.
The size differece alone is like training with eye "weights".
Dogs that can mark well in the training fields on pigeons that are rode out to gun limits have an easy go of it on the larger phessy's Even with trial guns riding phessy' out of sight.


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Actually the improvements began before that 10year mark.
> And although the Openshaws had some influence the reall factor is the age old one called 'competition". The stuff that like heat and fire tempers steal.Competition is the element that pushes people sometimes without their knowledge to strive for the elusive higher standards.
> In the All-age stakes titled dogs run against untitled dogs and vice versa. It is through this interaction that unproven become "tempered"
> and the titled dog demonstrates it's mettle and pushes the envelop of upland behavior.
> The cross polination of training techniques between the Springer world and the Cocker world had tremendous impact.
> Quite honestly and it cannot be proved when the Cocker world move to using pheasants as a bird that had to be found,flushed, and retrieved with manners, great changes took place in the breed and it's ensuing improvements around the fall of the shot bird.
> As for training I have always believed that the use of pigeons have helped my own personal dogs mark pheasants so well.
> The size differece alone is like training with eye "weights".
> Dogs that can mark well in the training fields on pigeons that are rode out to gun limits have an easy go of it on the larger phessy's Even with trial guns riding phessy' out of sight.


Hal,

Wasn't there a long stretch, that the cockers didn't even hold a national? I can't remember the time frame, but it was a long stretch until they held the one in Mich back in the late 90's. I believe Ernie won it with Rocky if I remember correctly??


----------



## cross3700

gundogguy said:


> *+1* *My eyes glaze over a little bit when the conversation and the spin tries to give me the impression that the RG is so wiley. and you have to have a wild bird hunting dog to find and kill'em.* Cripe sakes I've had the darn things run between me legs and still recovered for the shot.
> But any way me spaniels and I will put some pressure on them, and make'em fly. Real soon in covert near you!


+2 Are grouse the easiest birds to hunt? No of course not, but they are not these mythical creatures some make them out to be.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> Hal,
> 
> Wasn't there a long stretch, that the cockers didn't even hold a national? I can't remember the time frame, but it was a long stretch until they held the one in Mich back in the late 90's. I believe Ernie won it with Rocky if I remember correctly??


Mike,

You have a very good memory. The Hasse's won the Cocker Nationals the first year after they started back up, mid 90s. The dog was NFC/FC Flathome Accord aka Rocky, an English import. He was a dark liver. They have a beautiful oil portrait of Rocky in their kennel. He went on to sire many winners for the Hasse's and others.

As far as I know, Ernie is the only guy asked to judge the Nationals twice. 

Rod


----------



## Laphroaig

cross3700 said:


> +2 Are grouse the easiest birds to hunt? No of course not, but they are not these mythical creatures some make them out to be.



I've hunted wild pheasants and all manner of preserve bird over flushing Labrador retrievers for decades. I would think that grouse would be an even EASIER bird for flushing dogs as they give flight much quicker than anything else. I would yield to steelheadfred though as I've not hunted grouse with flushing dogs. I'm guessing the difference in cover and habitat one finds grouse in has the biggest factor in harvesting as the grouse are in heavier cover which is harder to shoot in.

So yes, I can see where these conclusions are formed with the flushing fraternity. On the other hand, I believe the elusiveness of the grouse being mentioned stems from the pointing dog aspect which have completely different factors. I assure you there is a difference in the contact to hunter induced flush of a covey of wild Oklahoma bobwhite quail compared to the ratio of ruffed grouse contacts to hunter induced flushes with a pointing dog.


----------



## dauber

Laphroaig said:


> I've hunted wild pheasants and all manner of preserve bird over flushing Labrador retrievers for decades. I would think that grouse would be an even EASIER bird for flushing dogs as they give flight much quicker than anything else. I would yield to steelheadfred though as I've not hunted grouse with flushing dogs. I'm guessing the difference in cover and habitat one finds grouse in has the biggest factor in harvesting as the grouse are in heavier cover which is harder to shoot in.
> 
> So yes, I can see where these conclusions are formed with the flushing fraternity. On the other hand, I believe the elusiveness of the grouse being mentioned stems from the pointing dog aspect which have completely different factors. I assure you there is a difference in the contact to hunter induced flush of a covey of wild Oklahoma bobwhite quail compared to the ratio of ruffed grouse contacts to hunter induced flushes with a pointing dog.


+1 
I think you and cross are both right on. These of course are generalities.


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Mike,
> 
> You have a very good memory. The Hasse's won the Cocker Nationals the first year after they started back up, mid 90s. The dog was NFC/FC Flathome Accord aka Rocky, an English import. He was a dark liver. They have a beautiful oil portrait of Rocky in their kennel. He went on to sire many winners for the Hasse's and others.
> 
> As far as I know, Ernie is the only guy asked to judge the Nationals twice.
> 
> Rod


 
Rod,

What was the gap? I use to have the old issue of SITF which highlighted the trial, but after several moves, I no longer have it.


----------



## Laphroaig

dauber said:


> +1
> I think you and cross are both right on. These of course are generalities.



Yes, I'm giving my opinion based on generalities. Individual cases will prove / disprove all manner of discussion.

If a semi to fairly decent experienced pointing dog had 10 wild covey bobwhite contacts; I'm guessing 8 would get pointed, held and flushed when the hunters arrived and walked in to shoot.

I recall (may have this wrong) having read from another forum from a VERY experienced and successful grouse hunter that a very good experienced pointing dog that points, holds and flushed when the hunters arrived and walked in to shoot is closer to 6 or 7 out of 10.

I may be off on my numbers, but in general terms I think the numbers (whatever they are) supports the argument that ruffed grouse are more elusive and harder for a pointing dog to successfully handle than other upland birds. But, I know there are those who disagree....and offer no statistics or facts to look at.


----------



## gundogguy

Laphroaig said:


> Yes, I'm giving my opinion based on generalities. Individual cases will prove / disprove all manner of discussion.
> 
> If a semi to fairly decent experienced pointing dog had 10 wild covey bobwhite contacts; I'm guessing 8 would get pointed, held and flushed when the hunters arrived and walked in to shoot.
> 
> I recall (may have this wrong) having read from another forum from a VERY experienced and successful grouse hunter that a very good experienced pointing dog that points, holds and flushed when the hunters arrived and walked in to shoot is closer to 6 or 7 out of 10.
> 
> I may be off on my numbers, but in general terms I think the numbers (whatever they are) supports the argument that ruffed grouse are more elusive and harder for a pointing dog to successfully handle than other upland birds. But, I know there are those who disagree....and offer no statistics or facts to look at.


I think a Husqvarna or Stihl chainsaw would be enough!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&v=DgU57DzrghI&NR=1


----------



## Laphroaig

gundogguy said:


> I think a Husqvarna or Stihl chainsaw would be enough!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&v=DgU57DzrghI&NR=1



I have to admit, that made me laugh my arsse off. But you do know that is a male grouse in breeding season challenging Paul Bunyon because he thinks that's a grouse drumming on steroids, don't you?

We agree to disagree even with my example above? Ok...so be it.

If I recall, you and I share a fondness for a certain British country and the nectar of which it's known for. So with that, no pissing match you'll get from me. Plus, I have a very prominent ancestor with a statue of him on Prince Street in Edinburg; and I'll bet you don't!

This much I know. If I were a spaniel man, I'd be on your doorstep this afternoon with checkbook in hand seeking a finished dog for my use. But alas, I'm too slow of reflex and motor, too fat to keep up and smitten much too deeply by the sight of an English Setter pointing game.


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Rod,
> 
> What was the gap? I use to have the old issue of SITF which highlighted the trial, but after several moves, I no longer have it.


I believe the 1962 was the last of the Cocker trials until it's well deserved revival. Vance Vanlaanen of Greenbay was a big influence ofthe revival as i recall
Link to some of the history
http://www.akc.org/events/field_trials/spaniels/history.cfm


----------



## I'm with Brandy

I don't find Grouse hunting hard. I don't find it hard to find the birds and I don't find it hard to have them flushed in front of the gun. If the cover is heavy it can be hard to hit them.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I don't find Grouse hunting hard. I don't find it hard to find the birds and I don't find it hard to have them flushed in front of the gun. If the cover is heavy it can be hard to hit them.


 
+1 My thoughts exactly!


----------



## Steelheadfred

I've shot wild upland birds in 5 different states, Phez, Grouse, WC, and Bobwhites in Michigan, Bobwhites, Chickens, and Phez in KS, Shaps, Huns, and Roosters in NoDak, Sharps and Roosters in SoDak, and Roosters in IA, despite spots in Iowa we hunted that were prime Quail habitat we never found any. 90% of the above hunts were on public lands. 

What attracts me most to Ruffed Grouse is the challenge and the magical places they live, public land accessible to everyone, despite my success out west hunting public lands, I don't believe that program is sustainable. It could be that I hunt them beyond the "prime sweet spot" of each season. The variables I find in hunting Ruffed Grouse is what I love so much, unlike pheasants, you can find them in a large amount of different habitats, these present different challenges to the dog and gunner. Grouse depending on weather and the time of year use so many different habitats even though they might be right next to each other. They will retreat to large swamps and stands of conifers and you can walk for days in spots that had good numbers just last week and struggle. This all becomes relative too as to what each individual considers a good day for Ruffed Grouse, flushers per hour, days hunted per season. When you put 60 days in a season, sometimes perspective of challenging hunting changes, you must hunt through at least four different pattern changes in the birds, hunt them in the heat, in drought, when your covers are flooded, with snow, wind, and rain. 

Sure like anything they can be easy some days, and as far as shooting, I don't think public land western roosters in a good wind give up much to the Ruffed Grouse in my experience.


----------



## EvanG

michgundog said:


> Evan welcome and thanks for input, very well said. Because the thread is about spaniels ; I'll ask the question. Can you please let us know what "stellar results" you accomplished with your force methods and spaniels? Are you speaking of trial results or gundogs?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Did you get the answer you were looking for?

EvanG


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## michgundog

EvanG said:


> Did you get the answer you were looking for?
> 
> EvanG


 
Yes I believe you clarified that already. Thank you. 


Fritz,

As far as the Phz is concerned I don't believe it really matters on the state you hunt them in, but any time hunting Phz and there's high wind involved which seems like whenever or where ever I go...LOL they are the hardest bird to hit. If someone shoots them when they flush that's one thing, but if you want to let them get up and in flight that's where the challenge is.


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## michgundog

There's a spaniel hunt test coming up in OH, Aug 25th/26th. Anyone wanting a premium please send me a PM along with your email address and I'll email one out asap. Keep in mind these tests are open to Airedale Terriers, curly coated and flat coated retrievers too.


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> My real concern with all of the inclusionary thinking and multicultural activities is the loss of spaniel traditions and standards.
> 
> Breeding programs need take into account the elements of importance in what makes a spaniel a spaniel.
> 
> 1. Drive strength of quest,quartering style
> 2. Nose, bird finding ability
> 3. courage in the face of heavy cover
> 4. Strength of flush,boldness
> 5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
> 6. The dogs acceptance of training
> 
> As it should be these are not the elements of a well bred pointing dog regardless of breed. and they are not the elements of a well bred retriever of any breed. Sure there are some attributes that are similar but not in there entirety


SPOT-ON, Hal. Very well said.

Those are the characteristics which go right to the core of spanieldom. Numbers 1 and 3 are the ones I see lacking most often in the other breeds. Which often need to be "coaxed" or "encouraged" to face the thick and knarly briars and brambles. A proper fieldbred spaniel lives for those times.

Only 90 days remain until my boys and I begin a two week campaign against the ruthless ringneck out in the Dakotas. That cover and the quarry are a true test of a spaniel's heart and bottom. And I've never found them lacking.

NB


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## dauber

http://glencoekennels.net/Training/Keith Erlandson Article-SITF Winter 1998.html

Here is an old SITF article from 1998 with some of Paul McGagh's comments. Always so interesting to read Erlandson!!


----------



## JAM

Love the articles, Dauber. Thanks so much for sharing!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> http://glencoekennels.net/Training/Keith Erlandson Article-SITF Winter 1998.html
> 
> Here is an old SITF article from 1998 with some of Paul McGagh's comments. Always so interesting to read Erlandson!!


Great reading about both those Rocky's from the early days of Cocker trials. The Hasse's Rocky won the first Nat Ch after the revival. He was an English import but Ernie has kept that blood going and his current winners are descendents I believe. Paul's Griffiths Pride Rocky is the great grandsire on the top line of our own little buzzbomb "Rocky".

Thanks for posting this report from the past, Steve. Interesting in that McGagh, Ness and Hasse are still at the top of the heap today,
despite all the new blood around nowadays.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> http://glencoekennels.net/Training/Keith Erlandson Article-SITF Winter 1998.html
> 
> Here is an old SITF article from 1998 with some of Paul McGagh's comments. Always so interesting to read Erlandson!!


Thanks alot Dauber really a great read. The elements of the spaniel are still true today as it was justa few years ago.
Why?..
I think the Graham Cox says it best "Field Trials are the only public examination of gundog capability, and the respective championships are the highest expression of that competence. So, whilst acknowledging the broader picture, comment inevitably inclines to the highest expressions of the art  for art it is  of breeding and gundog training."


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> SPOT-ON, Hal. Very well said.
> 
> Those are the characteristics which go right to the core of spanieldom. Numbers 1 and 3 are the ones I see lacking most often in the other breeds. Which often need to be "coaxed" or "encouraged" to face the thick and knarly briars and brambles. A proper fieldbred spaniel lives for those times.
> 
> Only 90 days remain until *my boys and I begin a two week campaign against the ruthless ringneck out in the Dakotas. That cover and the quarry are a true test of a spaniel's heart and bottom. And I've never found them lacking.*
> 
> NB


Wow Natty makes me want to strike up the "Battle Hymnn of the Republic" Gird your loins and prepare for combat.
Your experience with Saighton bred dogs are truly a great resource for you.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

I won't say much about SITF other than they owe me money. Paid for 2 years of subscription and I got one issue.


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> I won't say much about SITF other than they owe me money. Paid for 2 years of subscription and I got one issue.


 
Same here, except I think I was an "online" memeber for a couple years. Too bad they didn't have anything new. Sure wish it was run like when Art had it!


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Same here, except I think I was an "online" memeber for a couple years. Too bad they didn't have anything new. Sure wish it was run like when Art had it!


Not many magazines where you can actually talk one on one to the Editor and Publisher... LOL. When I bought a subscription a few years back after getting burned like Doug by the guy who took over after Art, the magazine just wasnt' the same. Isn't it called something like Spaniels and Retrievers In the Field?


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> *I won't say much about SITF other than they owe me money. Paid for 2 years of subscription and I got one* issue.


:yikes: That was a mouthful!! 
________________________________________________________________________________________

Dauber Said *"Same here, except I think I was an "online" memeber for a couple years. Too bad they didn't have anything new. Sure wish it was run like when Art had it! *


The thing Art R had was a staff of about 5 maybe more field trial people that help organise and contribute and that is what made the publication sizzle.
There were no conformation folks, or clicker trainers or hunt testers.
just field trial folks that work hard producing good info and then trying
to beat each other on the weekend. 

Read the new mission statement at the website...At least with that program they will not provide any useful Spaniel or Spaniel event information.. Maybe they can lead the "flushing Retrievers' to the "promised land" Lets see 2 Irish water spaniels , 2 Flat coats 0 culey-coated ret, not sure if the Airdale terrier is now a "flushing retriever", a handful of them That ought to build quite a subscription base, they must charge 700-800.00 per year for that quarterly rag. it's a joke:lol:


----------



## Gavan

in the years since Art sold it. Good riddens to what was left of that publication.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Last time I tried to get my money back a couple years ago I had to talk to an Indian woman could not under stand her at all.

I still have my $78.00 Winter 2009 issue. Mint condition will sell for $80.00+ shipping. Clean copy never read it while on the toilet.


----------



## sgc

Are there any other good Spaniel sites or publications?


----------



## I'm with Brandy

The only mag I get now is Gun Dog.


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## dauber

sgc said:


> Are there any other good Spaniel sites or publications?


This thread is about the best I know of now. Used to be SpanielJournal.com but I'm not sure that is around any more either.

The best thing to do is get out and visit and train with guys like Hal, Ernie, John Skibba. I now the time I spent with these guys along with John Isaac's and Russ Smith helped me a bunch. 

It really is too bad SITF went in the toilet. I used to read it cover to cover even though I never trialed, but the guys that do knew way more than me and I always thought it best to get the best bred dog I could to help make up for my lack of ability as a trainer.

sgc it really is too bad there isn't much out there, but I think most spanile people are doers and don't like to be saddled with articles.


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## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> I won't say much about SITF other than they owe me money. Paid for 2 years of subscription and I got one issue.


Me too. It had really gone downhill fast. I couldn't believe the typos and grammar errors. One of the worst was when young Jason Green died. They had a headline that read something like, "Jason Green Past" (instead of Passed). GEEZ!

Anyway, I paid for 2 years and only got 1 or 2 issues, too.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> This thread is about the best I know of now. Used to be SpanielJournal.com but I'm not sure that is around any more either.
> 
> The best thing to do is get out and visit and train with guys like Hal, Ernie, John Skibba. I now the time I spent with these guys along with John Isaac's and Russ Smith helped me a bunch.
> 
> It really is too bad SITF went in the toilet. I used to read it cover to cover even though I never trialed, but the guys that do knew way more than me and I always thought it best to get the best bred dog I could to help make up for my lack of ability as a trainer.
> 
> sgc it really is too bad there isn't much out there, but I think most spanile people are doers and don't like to be saddled with articles.


Steve, I believe the spaniel journal was started by Loretta baughman.??? I think she got too busy with her website business, that's not a good source either. You're right the best source is just getting out with people 'who have been there done that.' Hal's Saturday training classes are great, anyone looking into learning about training spaniels should give him a call or send him a PM @ (gundogguy) on this forum. 


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Freestone

This is an interesting thread to follow. Almost 20,000 views!


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## dauber

Here is a writeup from Paul McGagh about the mother of our first cocker "Roan". Note where Paul trained Natchez and what he used for "training birds":yikes:. Roan was a carbon copy of his mother. We were privilaged to meet Jeff, Carol and Natchez in 2007 and they were very happy to see her son Roan. Roan is the dog who sold us on cockers and is the reason we look for very well bred dogs for our hunting dogs.

http://glencoekennels.net/Training/OakAlleySnowyEgret.pdf



Roan after a good Dakota hunt. He didn't leave too many birds for Dante to get that day That was the only way to get him to sit still...hunt him for 2 hours.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is a writeup from Paul McGagh about the mother of our first cocker "Roan". Note where Paul trained Natchez and what he used for "training birds":yikes:. Roan was a carbon copy of his mother. We were privilaged to meet Jeff, Carol and Natchez in 2007 and they were very happy to see her son Roan. Roan is the dog who sold us on cockers and is the reason we look for very well bred dogs for our hunting dogs.
> 
> http://glencoekennels.net/Training/OakAlleySnowyEgret.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> *Roan after a good Dakota hunt*. He didn't leave too many birds for Dante to get that day That was the only way to get him to sit still...*hunt him for 2 hours*.


I come in from training and look what I find a Cocker that can only run for 2 hours, puny Dakota bag limits any way, you got to hunt with those dogs where they take the limits off...:lol::lol: Great job Steve and Karen,
And i know Karen had an eye wipe or 2 in the deal. :xzicon_sm


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> I come in from training and look what I find a Cocker that can only run for 2 hours, puny Dakota bag limits any way, you got to hunt with those dogs where they take the limits off...:lol::lol: Great job Steve and Karen,
> And i know Karen had an eye wipe or 2 in the deal. :xzicon_sm


 It was day 10 of what ended up being a 13 day hunt and he was 9 yr old at the time. And yes Karen gets her share of eye wipes!


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## michgundog

Since we were talking about Jim Karlovec and Hal's trip to England back in the day, I thought I would post this. Once the clips of the dogs are available I'll post them too. 

There's also, a nice tribute clip of a springer (kind of long).



www.facebook.com/crawfordcountyoutdoors


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## JackieTreeHorn

Do you think they will put up clips of the dogs working, or are they just teasing us?


----------



## gundogguy

JackieTreeHorn said:


> Do you think they will put up clips of the dogs working, or are they just teasing us?


Not sure who is doing any teasing and I'm not sure if Mark Twain was speaking about hunting dog folks but most conversations about this dog or that breed could be sumed up best by one of his most famous quotes

*One of Mark Twain's most memorable comments was: "The researches of many com&shy;mentators have thrown much darkness upon the subject and if they further persist in their efforts, we will soon know nothing about it at all."*

Seems to fit a number topics about gundogs and bird dogs....


----------



## dauber

http://glencoekennels.net/Training/Warrener's Mistle Thrush, Porter.pdf

With all this talk about feeding dogs game parts in another thread... here McGagh talks of what he fed the sire of my first cocker. Roan din't have many of his papa's traits other than being very hard to steady. 

The interesting tidbit in this story for me was how McGagh now builds the relationship between the pup and handler. One thinng I get from McGagh's writting is how much he adapts his training methods for each dog and how different each dog is even within a rather small number breed the FBECS.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> http://glencoekennels.net/Training/Warrener's Mistle Thrush, Porter.pdf
> 
> With all this talk about feeding dogs game parts in another thread... here McGagh talks of what he fed the sire of my first cocker. Roan din't have many of his papa's traits other than being very hard to steady.
> 
> The interesting tidbit in this story for me was how McGagh now builds the relationship between the pup and handler. One thinng I get from McGagh's writting is how much he adapts his training methods for each dog and how different each dog is even within a rather small number breed the FBECS.


Thanks Dauber brings back vivid memeories. My 3rd and last trip to Wales just before Saighton Kennels was bought by Magnum Kennel and Andrew Green move to the states, Andrew was conducting a training session with 4-5 beaters and their dogs, these fellas and their spaniels worked Talbot's estate. Either as beaters or pickers on shooting days
They all had a fasinnation with the notion that we ,here in the states had access to woodchucks. Oh they thought the states must truely be a land of milk and honey, To a man each of them thought woodchuck would be best for their dogs over mutton, and or Beef tripe..

Ignore to make the heart grow fonder, it's the only way with the passive approach dog.. thanks for sharing.


----------



## METRO1

Speaking of andrew green, i just spoke with him today, he s still recovering from having lung removed,tough battle ,but keep him in prayers, he s taught me alot, along with some others


----------



## dauber

METRO1 said:


> Speaking of andrew green, i just spoke with him today, he s still recovering from having lung removed,tough battle ,but keep him in prayers, he s taught me alot, along with some others


 
+1 He will be in our prayers.

Here is one you will have interst in... http://glencoekennels.net/Training/DianaFlossofWindmillwood.pdf

This is McGagh's writeup on Millie, a dog heavy in your breedings background Gary.


----------



## METRO1

Thanks and yes ive seen that on millie, plus there are a hand full of others paul titled in shellys bloodline


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Some other threads got me thinking about this and I wondered where the spaniel guys were on this subject.

Steadiness and denial of reward.

What are your expectations of steadiness?

Have you and would you shoot a bird for your dog knowing they did not meet your expectations of steadiness?

Under what conditions would you let the rules slide?

How do you deal with steadiness issues just denial of reward or do you use some other form of correction?

If your dog did not meet your expectations and you shot the bird and corrected the dog would you still allow them to get the retrieve?


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Some other threads got me thinking about this and I wondered where the spaniel guys were on this subject.
> 
> Steadiness and denial of reward.
> 
> What are your expectations of steadiness?
> 
> Have you and would you shoot a bird for your dog knowing they did not meet your expectations of steadiness?
> 
> Under what conditions would you let the rules slide?
> 
> How do you deal with steadiness issues just denial of reward or do you use some other form of correction?
> 
> If your dog did not meet your expectations and you shot the bird and corrected the dog would you still allow them to get the retrieve?


Nowadays I expect steadiness to flush, shot and fall. 

In training I do not shoot a bird if the dog is not steady to flush. If the dog hasn't proven steady to shot I don't shoot to kill a bird until he is, same thing with steady to fall. 

While hunting the rules sometimes slip especially when I cannot see the dog and when out west pheasant hunting near the end of the season. They start to break on the fall first then shot next. Then we have that to work on the next off season.

When training after they are steady if they break they get pulled back to where they committed the crime and made to sit there. Also now that I have gotten older and half crippled I now use a e-collar after they have learned the task. My dogs get denial often even if they do it correctly. One of my training exercises is to heal on dog, work the other and let the heeling dog make many of the retrieves. This is also working well teaching the younger dog to be steady to shot and fall since he is close by if he commits the crime.

I try not to give them the retrieve if they break the law, but with my current running speed that is much tougher than a few years back.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> Nowadays I expect steadiness to flush, shot and fall.
> 
> In training I do not shoot a bird if the dog is not steady to flush. If the dog hasn't proven steady to shot I don't shoot to kill a bird until he is, same thing with steady to fall.
> 
> While hunting the rules sometimes slip especially when I cannot see the dog and when out west pheasant hunting near the end of the season. They start to break on the fall first then shot next. Then we have that to work on the next off season.
> 
> When training after they are steady if they break they get pulled back to where they committed the crime and made to sit there. Also now that I have gotten older and half crippled I now use a e-collar after they have learned the task. My dogs get denial often even if they do it correctly. One of my training exercises is to heal on dog, work the other and let the heeling dog make many of the retrieves. This is also working well teaching the younger dog to be steady to shot and fall since he is close by if he commits the crime.
> 
> I try not to give them the retrieve if they break the law, but with my current running speed that is much tougher than a few years back.


 
Brandy still thinks even if it falls at her feet and I am 10 yards away some how I can beat her to it. Hope she never figure that one out.

I only have the one dog so I will sometime have her sit and watch me retrieve. I typically only do this if she starts to get slow on her sits.

I am sure there have been times when I could not see the dog that I released her and she was already in motion. But this is very rare. Some times she is so steady that it takes two release commands to get her going. She has to hear it just right to take the release. I have often time toss other words at her to try to get a break. I send her on fetch so I say french fry alot to see if I can trick her. Sometime I walk to her to release her. Or I may walk to the bird before I release her. If it is possible to have a dog that is too steady she might fit the bill. So sometimes I let her be a little loose on the sit.

Three weeks ago at retriever training we were working on getting the dogs to drive out. She went out to retrieve a duck that was shot the day before and they were nasty birds, she would not pick it up so the bird boy tossed her another duck and she sat. He did not under stand why she was sitting so he tossed another and hooped and hollered trying to get her to retrieve. She sat and watched him as he tossed another and then another finally we got him on the radio and told him to stop she was trained to be steady. I gave her a force fetch command and she picked up a bird. When she brought it back it too was nasty as I found out when I got a handfull of insides when I took the bird from her.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Some other threads got me thinking about this and I wondered where the spaniel guys were on this subject.
> 
> Steadiness and denial of reward.
> 
> *1. What are your expectations of steadiness*?
> 
> *2. Have you and would you shoot a bird for your dog knowing they did not meet your expectations of steadiness*?
> 
> Under what conditions would you let the rules slide?
> 
> *3. How do you deal with steadiness issues just denial of reward or do you use some other form of correction?*
> 
> *4. If your dog did not meet your expectations and you shot the bird and corrected the dog would you still allow them to get the retrieve*?


1. Expectations.. Trialing or Hunting does not take place until the dog is trained. Delivery to hand, and steady to wing and shot. If you have those two behaviors you have a dog that handles

2. No, A little technique I have used for years is to miss on the first barrell on purpose and then upon reading the dogs motives go for the kill and subsequent mark on the 2nd barrell. If my read is not good just pull off the bird and correct the dog for even thinking about breaking. so many times dog recieves a correction at the point of infraction, in many cases that is already to late, I will correct a dog under the right circumstances for even thinking about becoming lazy or dishonest.
If you stop and think about it that is all adog ever does when he needs a correction...he is either being lazy and not focusing on the job or beligerent and willful...in either case a correction in the course of a behavior is due. I use a lot of ammo in the course of teaching proofing and polishing

3. Both.. no retrieve and annoying correction..a double whammy so to speak.

4 No..personally I would rather the coyotes foxes or ***** got it.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Some other threads got me thinking about this and I wondered where the spaniel guys were on this subject.
> 
> Steadiness and denial of reward.
> 
> What are your expectations of steadiness?
> 
> Have you and would you shoot a bird for your dog knowing they did not meet your expectations of steadiness?
> 
> Under what conditions would you let the rules slide?
> 
> How do you deal with steadiness issues just denial of reward or do you use some other form of correction?
> 
> If your dog did not meet your expectations and you shot the bird and corrected the dog would you still allow them to get the retrieve?


Since I compete with my dog(s), I expect them to be steady. I want my dog to drive through that bird and then plop his butt down so hard it almost bounces off the ground. (I don't always get what I want, but the above is to me the ideal flush).

If my current "test" dog breaks, it's usually on the fall so the bird has already been shot. If he was breaking on the flush/flight, I would not shoot the bird.

I don't ever purposely "let the rules slide".

If my dog breaks and gets to the fall, I fast-step out to him with a mean look (at this point, he knows he's in trouble and why), take the bird from him, and march him back to the place where he broke. I sit him down firmly with a whistle pip and make him sit there. Then I toss the bird at him, away from him, high, low, etc. - all the while making him "hup". After he's shown me he's going to be steady, I allow him to get the retrieve.


----------



## gundogguy

Concerning spaniels and trials
[/COLOR]From the desk of Kim Wiley
Hello Everyone,
I have been approached by several different groups asking us to consider the possibility of allowing combined Springer/Cocker Trials as an option. The
idea seems to have some merit where distances between trials make it very difficult to attend trials on a regular basis, areas where the number of
entries in trials are not cost effective for clubs to host field trials and several pro trainers have approached me as well because they would like to take on
more cocker clients, but will not travel to our events when they can attend Springer trials each weekend within an easy 4-6 hour drive from home.
There are 3 parent clubs and the AKC that would all have to agree as well,
I think for this to ever be considered the following criteria would be necessary:
1. It would always be optional. Clubs could hold a Springer, Cocker, or Springer/Cocker Trial. (Springers,and English Cocker Spaniels only, this would *not *be an "all-variety" stake to include minor spaniel breeds)
Z Placements and points would only count toward your breed's records.
3.National Championships would remain as is. Springer Nationals and Cocker Nationals. There would be no combined Nationals.
4.The purpose would be to grow our sport and to NEVER combine the breeds. Parent clubs could/should veto if at any time this would prove harmful
to the growth of our breeds.
I'm writing this to give all something to think about and consider. I'm hoping you will discuss and share your feedback and thoughts with your ECSCA


----------



## dauber

Been hearing of this.
Isn't it sort of what Canada does? This would be tough for the cockers...but the competition might make the breed better in the end.

http://glencoekennels.net/dogs/storm.html I think Natty has posted this before but I love reading recounts of big trials and great dog work...I sure miss the old SITF.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Yup, Steve, I guess I would have to "Believe in Miracles" when I read this trial report for the first time. Paul gave me that writeup when we picked up our Rocky as a 12 wk old pup. I believe Paul said that were something like 85 ESS and one little Cocker, with a big heart, in that Championship stake. The odds are long, very long against a Cocker competing against the bigger, faster and more powerful breed. Storm is Rocky's grandsire. I guess thats one thing that I like so much about the FBECS, they "hunt bigger than they should".

Both Paul and Tom Ness have also put Candian CHs on others of their dogs in Canada, both Cockers and Springers.

I am not a trialer anymore, so I suppose I am ambivalent about the "joint trial" with the Springers proposal. Not sure whats in it for the Cockers??

NB


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## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Yup, Steve, I guess I would have to "Believe in Miracles" when I read this trial report for the first time. Paul gave me that writeup when we picked up our Rocky as a 12 wk old pup. I believe Paul said that were something like 85 ESS and one little Cocker, with a big heart, in that Championship stake. The odds are long, very long against a Cocker competing against the bigger, faster and more powerful breed. Storm is Rocky's grandsire. I guess thats one thing that I like so much about the FBECS, they "hunt bigger than they should".
> 
> Both Paul and Tom Ness have also put Candian CHs on others of their dogs in Canada, both Cockers and Springers.
> 
> I am not a trialer anymore, so I suppose I am ambivalent about the "joint trial" with the Springers proposal. Not sure whats in it for the Cockers??
> NB



Storm is the sire of my youngest "Smoke", he is a powerful great moving dog like his daddy. The Dart's "Max" was the first cocker to get a Canadian CH. 


More trial availablity within driving distance would be a big plus. If some of the springer clubs had it open to cockers there would be 5 or 6 trials within 6 hr drive of my house rather than 2. Plus more of the top handlers might start running cockers and developing them to a higher standard. I'm not sure about all of Kim's thoughts such as points just for your breed's record?? I'm not sure how you do that. I don't know what is in it for the springer clubs?


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Storm is the sire of my youngest "Smoke", he is a powerful great moving dog like his daddy. The Dart's "Max" was the first cocker to get a Canadian CH.
> 
> 
> More trial availablity within driving distance would be a big plus. If some of the springer clubs had it open to cockers there would be 5 or 6 trials within 6 hr drive of my house rather than 2.* Plus more of the top handlers might start running cockers and developing them to a higher* standard. I'm not sure about all of Kim's thoughts such as points just for your breed's record?? I'm not sure how you do that. *I don't know what is in it for the springer clubs?*


A few thread pages back there was a consensus that the retrieving skills of the FB cockers were improved over what was seen say 10 years ago. With the improved availability of trials circuit pros would now take on Fb Cockers. There is still plenty of room for improvement that those on circuit could help the breed. Standards would increase and improve. It would also allow more opportunity for Cocker owners to run in amateur all-age stakes

Springer clubs, as well as Cocker Clubs would be put on a better financial footing thus being able to bring in better judges. To go outside you inter-club and bring people in it is roughly 1000-1200.00...oh X 2 for 2 judges, some clubs have to back off that and get someone from within the interclub. Trial finances are getting stiff with birds and judges expense being up considerable.


Personally i have no problem with the concept because as of now the idea is going to be optional for a the club holding the trial whether they are inclusionary or not.


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## I'm with Brandy

If you look at all the places across the country that put on many ESS trials every year you see that these are also the locations that most people turn to when getting a Field Bred ESS. East cost, WI west to the rockys, and California. I think the ESS trials get a huge boost because of the breeders in those locations.


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## dauber

dauber said:


> Everyone posts nice vids of their dogs....here is one of mine being a bad boy This was the same morning of Dante's run above, no wind and humid. We worked quite a it this summer on him sitting to a shot while running, but it didn't transfer over to staying to the shot.
> Smoke bad boy - YouTube
> 
> After his break to the shot we didn't shoot any more birds over him, but did shoot while birds flushed in controled situations where we could correct him quickly as he was thinking to break on the shot. Once he was staying on the shot and fly away bird we heeled him along as Dante worked birds and flushed. I would do as Hal suggested and missed the first shot make sure he was steady to the shot, then I would shoot the bird and let Dante retrieve. (sure is nice having a well trained dog to help out!)
> 
> The good news is he hasn't broke in 4 times out on birds now, I think he is up to steady on the last 8 birds. Still no retrieve for him though.


 
Today's Smoke update is he was steady to flush, shot and fall again today for 4 birds, 2 while heeling when Dante hunted and 2 while he hunted. Dante likes all the retrieves:lol:. Tomorrow's plan is to give Smoke one retrieve from a Dante flush as long as he is a "good boy" for his flushed birds and Dante's first one. This cool snap has sure been welcomed.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

dauber said:


> Today's Smoke update is he was steady to flush, shot and fall again today for 4 birds, 2 while heeling when Dante hunted and 2 while he hunted. Dante likes all the retrieves:lol:. Tomorrow's plan is to give Smoke one retrieve from a Dante flush as long as he is a "good boy" for his flushed birds and Dante's first one. This cool snap has sure been welcomed.


Hi
Sounds like a good plan. After work today I was able to get the dogs out also. I noticed some leaves starting to change around Perry.

Regards
JT
Www.marshhawkretrievers.com


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Today's Smoke update is he was steady to flush, shot and fall again today for 4 birds, 2 while heeling when Dante hunted and 2 while he hunted. Dante likes all the retrieves:lol:. Tomorrow's plan is to give Smoke one retrieve from a Dante flush as long as he is a "good boy" for his flushed birds and Dante's first one. This cool snap has sure been welcomed.


 
After reviewing the vid from 08/5 Smoke bad boy. I would try to recreate the situation the camera had smoke the bird and you in the frame very nicely. Smoke was stopped to the flush but was not seated,
now this is where the miss on the 1st and kill on the second technique came into use 
As the bird flushes handler would not look at the bird but at the dog and at the same time fire a shot (safetly) into the air, never taking one's eye of the dog if the dog is seated go after the bird if not go after the dog. If the bird is missed not a problem in the course of trainiing most dogs have to many kills any way and watching fly a ways is good for them. and their "soul" You can always flip em a dead or clipped wing if you feel they need a morale booster, they would rather have that than an at a boy any way.
Great photo work and great field darn near packed the truck and started the 8 hour drive..which might not be out of the question.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> After reviewing the vid from 08/5 Smoke bad boy. I would try to recreate the situation the camera had smoke the bird and you in the frame very nicely. Smoke was stopped to the flush but was not seated,
> now this is where the miss on the 1st and kill on the second technique came into use
> As the bird flushes handler would not look at the bird but at the dog and at the same time fire a shot (safetly) into the air, never taking one's eye of the dog if the dog is seated go after the bird if not go after the dog. If the bird is missed not a problem in the course of trainiing most dogs have to many kills any way and watching fly a ways is good for them. and their "soul" You can always flip em a dead or clipped wing if you feel they need a morale booster, they would rather have that than an at a boy any way.
> Great photo work and great field darn near packed the truck and started the 8 hour drive..which might not be out of the question.


Thanks for the reminders Hal. That has been the plan since the Bad Boy vid, first we had him heel with Karen while Dante flushed and retrieved (or I missed) then we had him flush, make sure he sat, me miss on purpose while watching to see if he moved, then shoot the bird and give Dante the retrieve from his heeling position. 

Today we started out with Smoke hunting, did the miss on purpose, I was left gun Karen was handling and right gun. The first bird was a clip hen pheasant that laid quite the track for him. Second bird was a flyer chukar that he flushed just to my right and out in front a little. He stopped on the flush, I gave him a toot and he sat, I missed on purpose and he stayed, the bird flew past Karen and she dropped it. I sent Dante on the retrieve, he had to run fairly close to Smoke and he stayed sitting very good. The next bird he also flushed well, sat, stayed for the miss and I got the bird on the second shot, sendng Dante on the retrieve. Then I ran Dante on 2 flyers missing the first shot on purpose, gave Dante the first retrieve, and on both Smoke was rock steady heeling with Karen and we sent him on the second bird of Dante's. 

I think for a while we will miss the first shot with Smoke and give him retrieves from heel while Dante is hunting. I think he is getting "it" now though.

Any time you want to make the drive let me know.


----------



## gundogguy

Excellent report Steve and Karen.
To give you a bit in insight as to what is transpiring is you are "buying your dog and yourself "time"
By missing on the first you are allowing the dog to transfer from DRIVE to PACK. Thus allowing a dog which had been in hot pursuit of game to stop and settled into a passive position of waiting for further instructions... Fetch or no fetch. Just the literal moments that it takes to pull the trigger aand miss is all that is needed in the training process that will buy you and your dog the time needed to work as a team.

Dogs being what they are creatures of habit and bit lazy or should I say always looking for a shortcut to get the reward of possesion of the bird.
you will also have to change to another tatic to keep them honest.
After the doggie realizes that there will be a wee bit of shooting going on before he can leave or not. Add a 2nd mark..handle or helper immediately throw a dead or clipped wing in generally the same direction as the 1st birds flight pattern or fall. Now doggie has a lot of multi tasking to do ...1st mark 2nd mark being steady is simple. he good ones will generally be glad to sit and watch another bird hit the ground.

Also try to keep your handling on the retrieves to a minimum these both should be marks. handling creates a situation that gives the dog a chance to become lazy and "pop' in another words ask you for help.

Training at this level is really about time management and helping dog transfer from the frenzy of the hunt to passivity of waiting for further instructions


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Excellent report Steve and Karen.
> To give you a bit in insight as to what is transpiring is you are "buying your dog and yourself "time"
> By missing on the first you are allowing the dog to transfer from DRIVE to PACK. Thus allowing a dog which had been in hot pursuit of game to stop and settled into a passive position of waiting for further instructions... Fetch or no fetch. Just the literal moments that it takes to pull the trigger aand miss is all that is needed in the training process that will buy you and your dog the time needed to work as a team.
> 
> Dogs being what they are creatures of habit and bit lazy or should I say always looking for a shortcut to get the reward of possesion of the bird.
> you will also have to change to another tatic to keep them honest.
> After the doggie realizes that there will be a wee bit of shooting going on before he can leave or not. Add a 2nd mark..handle or helper immediately throw a dead or clipped wing in generally the same direction as the 1st birds flight pattern or fall. Now doggie has a lot of multi tasking to do ...1st mark 2nd mark being steady is simple. he good ones will generally be glad to sit and watch another bird hit the ground.
> 
> Also try to keep your handling on the retrieves to a minimum these both should be marks. handling creates a situation that gives the dog a chance to become lazy and "pop' in another words ask you for help.
> 
> Training at this level is really about time management and helping dog transfer from the frenzy of the hunt to passivity of waiting for further instructions


Great info Hal! We will give that second mark a try. He has the best "focus" after the fall of the cockers we have had. I think you are spot on with handling him, it has been quite the balancing act teaching him the begining stages of handling. I can see a little validity that some trainers talk of teaching cockers handling before they get going on birds.
Thanks for the input Hal.


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> Excellent report Steve and Karen.
> To give you a bit in insight as to what is transpiring is you are "buying your dog and yourself "time"
> By missing on the first you are allowing the dog to transfer from DRIVE to PACK. Thus allowing a dog which had been in hot pursuit of game to stop and settled into a passive position of waiting for further instructions... Fetch or no fetch. Just the literal moments that it takes to pull the trigger aand miss is all that is needed in the training process that will buy you and your dog the time needed to work as a team.
> 
> Dogs being what they are creatures of habit and bit lazy or should I say always looking for a shortcut to get the reward of possesion of the bird.
> you will also have to change to another tatic to keep them honest.
> After the doggie realizes that there will be a wee bit of shooting going on before he can leave or not. Add a 2nd mark..handle or helper immediately throw a dead or clipped wing in generally the same direction as the 1st birds flight pattern or fall. Now doggie has a lot of multi tasking to do ...1st mark 2nd mark being steady is simple. he good ones will generally be glad to sit and watch another bird hit the ground.
> 
> Also try to keep your handling on the retrieves to a minimum these both should be marks. handling creates a situation that gives the dog a chance to become lazy and "pop' in another words ask you for help.
> 
> Training at this level is really about time management and helping dog transfer from the frenzy of the hunt to passivity of waiting for further instructions


Because training birds are a somestimes scarce commodity get all you can be with what you have.
After doggie hs learned that you have a lot of 'other' for him to do around the flush and the fall of the bird,this is an additional drill that i use to get a little more bang for the buck on the training birds being used.
Of course dog should have had some working knowledge of the back command and on memory marks.

after dog deliverys bird that it has flushed and been steady on...send him back to the area fall ...knowing full well there is no bird there!

If and when the dog returns to drive and gets to to the area of fall fire a shot dog should hup...throw the bird that he just delivered to you in the opposite direction of the fall thus assuring a nice long mark,an honor on the shot and steadiness to sight of the falling bird,,
Retriever folks that train alone use this sort of stuff all the time in conjunction with launchers, stick man, and blinds.
This activity ties in well with miss on the first and kill on the second drill.


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## michgundog

http://www.smsstc.org/fieldtrial/

FYI post for anyone interested.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Because training birds are a somestimes scarce commodity get all you can be with what you have.
> After doggie hs learned that you have a lot of 'other' for him to do around the flush and the fall of the bird,this is an additional drill that i use to get a little more bang for the buck on the training birds being used.
> Of course dog should have had some working knowledge of the back command and on memory marks.
> 
> after dog deliverys bird that it has flushed and been steady on...send him back to the area fall ...knowing full well there is no bird there!
> 
> If and when the dog returns to drive and gets to to the area of fall fire a shot dog should hup...throw the bird that he just delivered to you in the opposite direction of the fall thus assuring a nice long mark,an honor on the shot and steadiness to sight of the falling bird,,
> Retriever folks that train alone use this sort of stuff all the time in conjunction with launchers, stick man, and blinds.
> This activity ties in well with miss on the first and kill on the second drill.


More great info! Thanks Hal. When we get back on birds soon these ideas will be in our agenda.


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## gundogguy

Training? Anyone have Spaniel pups getting ready for the fall hunting trialing season? I am aware of at least 4 newbies on the rise, earning their stripes so to speak.


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## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> Training? Anyone have Spaniel pups getting ready for the fall hunting trialing season? I am aware of at least 4 newbies on the rise, earning their stripes so to speak.


 
I know Sully will be spending a lot of time at the Bay this Fall.
Holly wll be pushing southern Michigan roosters and Jake will be all over the place doing his thing These 3 are a breeding of Mike Minnicks.
The 4th pup from the same breeding i'm aware of is in field trialing camp possible getting ready for the Puppy stakes(steady) this fall.
These babes were born Late DEC 2011 I believe..

Any more in the class 2012?


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> I know Sully will be spending a lot of time at the Bay this Fall.
> Holly wll be pushing southern Michigan roosters and Jake will be all over the place doing his thing These 3 are a breeding of Mike Minnicks.
> The 4th pup from the same breeding i'm aware of is in field trialing camp possible getting ready for the Puppy stakes(steady) this fall.
> These babes were born Late DEC 2011 I believe..
> 
> Any more in the class 2012?


None here, but keep us updated on these youngsters. I will be in the spaniel market during the next year or two. Good luck to all these young uns.


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## Jeffrey Towler

gundogguy said:


> I know Sully will be spending a lot of time at the Bay this Fall.
> Holly wll be pushing southern Michigan roosters and Jake will be all over the place doing his thing These 3 are a breeding of Mike Minnicks.
> The 4th pup from the same breeding i'm aware of is in field trialing camp possible getting ready for the Puppy stakes(steady) this fall.
> These babes were born Late DEC 2011 I believe..
> 
> Any more in the class 2012?


Hi
Hopefully 2013 will see Hank and Megan's pups doing the same .

Regards
JT


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> I know Sully will be spending a lot of time at the Bay this Fall.
> Holly wll be pushing southern Michigan roosters and Jake will be all over the place doing his thing These 3 are a breeding of Mike Minnicks.
> The 4th pup from the same breeding i'm aware of is in field trialing camp possible getting ready for the Puppy stakes(steady) this fall.
> These babes were born Late DEC 2011 I believe..
> 
> Any more in the class 2012?


Joe Havorka has a nice male named Fonzi, he's coming on strong too. Brian Trimmer gives him high praise!!

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## sgc

Mike,
Did you keep one?


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## michgundog

sgc said:


> Mike,
> Did you keep one?


Stan, no, but Mary and Joe both have one so I'm able to see a couple on a regular basis. From what I understand they will both be running in the clubs puppy stake next month. I will bring that Sodak info by this week I promise. 

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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Stan, no, but Mary and Joe both have one so I'm able to see a couple on a regular basis. From what I understand they will both be running in the clubs puppy stake next month. I will bring that Sodak info by this week I promise.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Michgundog, Was I close on the date of birth of this litter
"late Dec 2011"
Wow soon to be 10 month old pups running the puppystake at a licensed trial.
For those of you in Yorba Linda that means steady to wing and shot and retrieve on command to be under judges consideration for placement.
A real tribute to breeding and proper spaniel training techniques..


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Michgundog, Was I close on the date of birth of this litter
> "late Dec 2011"
> Wow soon to be 10 month old pups running the puppystake at a licensed trial.
> For those of you in Yorba Linda that means steady to wing and shot and retrieve on command to be under judges consideration for placement.
> A real tribute to breeding and proper spaniel training techniques..


Hal, 

Very very close 1-1-12. Going back in both sides of the pedigrees there's several of the top spaniels if all time. Even though I believe a lot of the top spaniels may not have ever won or entered a trial. But that's a whole new thread possibly. I know I had my Mickey dog who was unbelievable beast in the field and you had your Tally girl. She was awesome!!!

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## gundogguy

I'm enjoying the pointing dog thread concerning head level when the dog is hunting or on point. Nice to see people recognize style and class.
It certainly should be,head level, on the list of qualities that breeder should pay attention to.

Now how does it pertain to Spaniels? Very rarely do we have a discussion of this particular style of running, is the head up or down when quartering and questing game.
One of the turning points historically was in the 60's and 70',Natty, Help me out here, When there was the English invasion so to speak Of Saighton dogs that ran very high headed through the cover relieing on body scent more to find game vs the low head dogs that were most interested in foot scent. In converstaions with many spaniel folks, many who were judges, the low headed dogs, known as "beaters dogs" fell out of style with a goodly number spaniel enthusiasts. The high headed almost "setter style ' became quite the fashion and seems to be still the quality that one wants in a trial dog..


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> I'm enjoying the pointing dog thread concerning head level when the dog is hunting or on point. Nice to see people recognize style and class.
> It certainly should be,head level, on the list of qualities that breeder should pay attention to.
> 
> Now how does it pertain to Spaniels? Very rarely do we have a discussion of this particular style of running, is the head up or down when quartering and questing game.
> One of the turning points historically was in the 60's and 70',Natty, Help me out here, When there was the English invasion so to speak Of Saighton dogs that ran very high headed through the cover relieing on body scent more to find game vs the low head dogs that were most interested in foot scent. In converstaions with many spaniel folks, many who were judges, the low headed dogs, known as "beaters dogs" fell out of style with a goodly number spaniel enthusiasts. The high headed almost "setter style ' became quite the fashion and seems to be still the quality that one wants in a trial dog..


That is an interesting topic related to spaniels. I was actually thinking about it watching my boys doing some "beating" this weekend along logging trails. They seemed to have a fairly level head most of the time quatering but when hitting older scent they dropped down and tracked some, once they hit the more recent scents they were body scenting then quickly putting grouse up hard. 

Some of the AWS's we had would keep their heads low foot scenting. They made made for some long tracks following pheasants, we always hoped for a rooster at the end of the track.


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## Gavan

with a low head in field trials or hunt tests for that matter. Dogs that have hunted extensively will work that way and some others will put their nose on the ground when they are puzzling out scent. Predominantly they will hit a nest or pocket of scent and loop downwind to try to cut off the running bird. The good ones in good scenting conditions can make some exciting finds on moving birds. In bad scenting the process will get repeated time after time with no bird production.
There are some very talented springers that understand that they must tighten those downwind loops and search more thoroughly on bad scenting days. These dogs will find you more birds on bad scenting days than the dogs who hunt with their nose on the ground simply because they can cover more ground and do it effectively.
But alas many lesser trial dogs will take that big downwind loop when they hit scent and run themselves right out of the scent cone. Then on to the next one, and more frustration and they just run themselves into a lather.
The cockers I have judged and shot over are more likely to take foot scent with their nose on the ground. I believe that is because they are less generations removed from British blood where a high head is considered treasonous.
A spaniel doesn't have to hunt with their nose to the ground to find birds in all conditions but they do have to stick to the track and produce the bird rather than leaving the area and running big loops. Some folks call it outrunning their nose, I call it stupidity.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Gavan said:


> The cockers I have judged and shot over are more likely to take foot scent with their nose on the ground. I believe that is because they are less generations removed from British blood where a high head is considered treasonous.
> A spaniel doesn't have to hunt with their nose to the ground to find birds in all conditions but they do have to stick to the track and produce the bird rather than leaving the area and running big loops. Some folks call it outrunning their nose, I call it stupidity.


Interesting point, Gavan. 

My Cockers both have British blood pretty close up ie. Danderw Druid et al. I was watching them out running this morning. Great morning, temps in the 40's  Like Steve's, they quarter and quest with a slightly elevated or level head but quickly drop their noses, slow down and dig in, whether it be on bird or bunny scent.

I find the exaggerated "head crank" pose on point popular among certain FT pointer lines, quite unattractive personally. 

NB


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## Jeffrey Towler

Hi,

Got out and worked the dogs last couple of nights. Feels great!


Regards
JT


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> with a low head in field trials or hunt tests for that matter. Dogs that have hunted extensively will work that way and some others will put their nose on the ground when they are puzzling out scent. Predominantly they will hit a nest or pocket of scent and loop downwind to try to cut off the running bird. The good ones in good scenting conditions can make some exciting finds on moving birds. In bad scenting the process will get repeated time after time with no bird production.
> There are some very talented springers that understand that they must tighten those downwind loops and search more thoroughly on bad scenting days. These dogs will find you more birds on bad scenting days than the dogs who hunt with their nose on the ground simply because they can cover more ground and do it effectively.
> But alas many lesser trial dogs will take that big downwind loop when they hit scent and run themselves right out of the scent cone. Then on to the next one, and more frustration and they just run themselves into a lather.
> The cockers I have judged and shot over are more likely to take foot scent with their nose on the ground. I believe that is because they are less generations removed from British blood where a high head is considered treasonous.
> A spaniel doesn't have to hunt with their nose to the ground to find birds in all conditions but they do have to stick to the track and produce the bird rather than leaving the area and running big loops. Some folks call it outrunning their nose, I call it stupidity.


Good explanation Gavan. Thanks.


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## gundogguy

Natty's and Gavan's description of running style they have seen and enjoyed is excellent. I can certainly relate to Gavan's comments concerning gunning over cockers in trials having done so myself here in Michigan and Ohio. Dog coming out of it's pattern head up or level and then with head driving down into a nest only to circle and head out in a new direction to produce the bird is always pleasant to see and a nice surprise.


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## gundogguy

Nice piece of work 




 

Scandinavian Cockers at work


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## dauber

Yes a nice piece of work there. Thanks for sharing.


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## gundogguy

The Springer trial season is off to rough start. Two trials have been canceled due to poor cover or no cover conditions. These trials were schedule for early Sept
Western New York and NE Ohio Bird Dog Association..draught related, Spaniels cannot run on a "golf course"
Birds seemed to be in good supply..


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## dauber

That's too bad. Watching spaniels work their beat is so much fun!


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> That's too bad. Watching spaniels work their beat is so much fun!


Yes, that's a bummer! One of my favorite types of cover for phz and watching spaniels work is a wheat stubble field, that wasn't cut for straw. Also, great for late season whitetails...



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## Jeffrey Towler

gundogguy said:


> The Springer trial season is off to rough start. Two trials have been canceled due to poor cover or no cover conditions. These trials were schedule for early Sept
> Western New York and NE Ohio Bird Dog Association..draught related, Spaniels cannot run on a "golf course"
> Birds seemed to be in good supply..


Hi Hal

Omega Farms has some great cover. It might be a option for some clubs to run trials/tests at Omega.

Regards
JT


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## gundogguy

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hi Hal
> 
> Omega Farms has some great cover. It might be a option for some clubs to run trials/tests at Omega.
> 
> Regards
> JT


HE HE:lol: Jeff do you know where Wester New York is or NE Ohio Bird Dog club is? They are not going to hold their trials in Mid-Michigan
To best of my knowledge the cover conditions are fine here in Michigan and licensed trials scheduled here will come off just fine.

Just came in cover is wet from the over nite August dew!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> That's too bad. Watching spaniels work their beat is so much fun!


I do not if it is bad or not, though it could have implications for those seeking to get qualified for the National Championships.
At worst it may mean some extra travel expences to get to other trials that weekend out side the inter-club, that those clubs reside in


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

gundogguy said:


> HE HE:lol: Jeff do you know where Wester New York is or NE Ohio Bird Dog club is? They are not going to hold their trials in Mid-Michigan
> To best of my knowledge the cover conditions are fine here in Michigan and licensed trials scheduled here will come off just fine.
> 
> Just came in cover is wet from the over nite August dew!


 True, however the point is still there. Omega has some great cover, Owner is Sportdog friendly. I would like to see spaniel clubs in our area at least look at the grounds for possible events.


Regards
JT


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## Gavan

for spaniel trials because they are set up for pointers and the strips of cover are way too narrow. Gun or Hunting Club operations mow the strips very narrow so that marginal dogs and their owners can find birds, often pointing them from the downwind side of the strip without having to even enter the cover.
Spaniel trials require at least 40 yards of cover on either side of a mowed area to even be workable. Many handlers don't even like the mowed strip in the middle and would prefer just a big field with no mowed areas.
Another issue is access. The bird planters typically run an ATV to transport the birds and some landowners don't like motorized vehicles of any kind on their property. Then there is the parking issue. Need an area to park 30 trucks or so in easy access to courses being run on.
Then depending on the laws of the state your in you have the shooting permit issues. Also related to shooting is safety and can the contestants get in safely and still allow the guns to safely kill the birds. Also, can they shoot effectively and not rain shot on the trucks in the parking lot.
The there is the condition of the cover and the time of year. Early in the season you don't want excessive cover because the heat and thick cover will make bird finding very hard and put the dogs health at risk.
Just a couple of thoughts regarding why it isn't easy to find appropriate grounds for a spaniel trial.


----------



## gundogguy

Jeffrey Towler said:


> True, however the point is still there. Omega has some great cover, Owner is Sportdog friendly. I would like to see spaniel clubs in our area at least look at the grounds for possible events.
> 
> 
> Regards
> JT


Jeff
Omega Farms is a great place for dog work of all kinds. Rest assured that it has been looked at by Southern Michigan, Heart of Michigan,and Great Lakes.
As Gavan pointed out there are a lot of factors that go into finding suitable grounds. 
If you look at where the trials will be at this fall, here in Michigan, they are literally within 30 minutes off of 80/90 toll road, the main artery here in the Mid-East, which makes it very easy for folks from the Dakotas to New England to make either the 2 springer trials or 1 cocker trial. Quite honestly accessability will become a larger factor in folks decision making process on attending this trial or that trial.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Jeff
> Omega Farms is a great place for dog work of all kinds. Rest assured that it has been looked at by Southern Michigan, Heart of Michigan,and Great Lakes.
> As Gavan pointed out there are a lot of factors that go into finding suitable grounds.
> If you look at where the trials will be at this fall, here in Michigan, they are literally within 30 minutes off of 80/90 toll road, the main artery here in the Mid-East, which makes it very easy for folks from the Dakotas to New England to make either the 2 springer trials or 1 cocker trial. Quite honestly accessability will become a larger factor in folks decision making process on attending this trial or that trial.


SMSSTC is having their fall trial at the same location as last years national near Dundee. 

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## Jeffrey Towler

Omega bird cover today

Regards
JT


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## gundogguy

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Omega bird cover today
> 
> Regards
> JT


Jeff very nice non-slip retriever cover, just what Omega is known for.
But hardly all-age Spaniel trial cover.
Gavan's post points this very nicely.
Photo included is just marginal spaniel trial cover.. though more than adequate training cover. Phooto of dog and bird give you some idea of cover height and density.
Good cover will challenge the dog yet give an opportunity for the judgement..


----------



## dauber

Smoke continues to be a gooood boooy! He was steady today and Hal's tips really have helped make him honest. Here's a couple of vids from this mornings training.

Here is Smoke's first flush of the day. Conditions were forcast for a cheek wind, when I set up our course there was no wind, when we started running dogs it was a slight downwind. Temps were about 70 degrees. The vids end before the retrieve is completed to keep the time down to 30-45 seconds. On this vid he retrieved the hand tossed bird, but Kanen didn't let him get the long shot bird since it was in the area of the next flyer.




 

This was his second flyer. Note my wimpy toss, Smoke didn't see it so I threw a second bird. Then Karen had him make a double retrieve. We picked up the third bird latter, We have only worked on doubles with Smoke to this point.





 
The bad is the farmer is haying the training field. Not too bad since we are pretty close to hunting season and will be working with the birds in a little more wooded setting from here on out.

Thanks for the tips Hal (gundogguy)!


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## gundogguy

Excellent, Nicely done! The absolute key to Spaniel and flushing dog training is the element of change in the mundane and routine. Both of your techniques are right on. From that exercise there are many variations. When you come down for the Cocker Trial we will have some fun with your guys...You keep that kind of work up and you may be forced to enter that little dog in a real trial


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> When you come down for the Cocker Trial we will have some fun with your guys...You keep that kind of work up and you may be forced to enter that little dog in a real trial


We always look forward to that weekend and we have a blast!


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## michgundog

michgundog said:


> SMSSTC is having their fall trial at the same location as last years national near Dundee.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 
Here's the link to the trial. I forgot to attach it to this email.

http://www.smsstc.org/fieldtrial/


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Here's the link to the trial. I forgot to attach it to this email.
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/fieldtrial/


+1 Mike
My hats off the Southern Mich for finally pulling out of that grounds they had been in for so long.. Great move to the new location. The trial commitee should see a nice increase in entry's. Do to location,location,location...along with quality cover and surroundings.


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## dauber

The Michigan Cocker trial is September 22 and 23 at:

Laubenhaid 
13601 Garber Road
Constantine, MI. 49042

http://www.fieldcockers.com/2012Premiums/MI_2012_ECSCA_FT_Premium.pdf

This is a great place to see the largest gathering of fb cockers in Michigan this year.


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## Gavan

Both are big time wild bird hunters and know what they are looking at.


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> Both are big time wild bird hunters and know what they are looking at.


Good to hear Gavan. Usually good judges for this trial! My wife usually shags the whole thing.

Took the little boot polishers out this morning to a stand my wife told me about and put up 9 grouse (2 broods and 1 single) and a woodcock in about an hour. Numbers are looking good.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Both are big time wild bird hunters and know what they are looking at.


Trent Bosse and Jimmy O'Shea good guys!! They will sort out the slackers from the real deal!


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## Gavan

into heading north after the trial to do some bird hunting. If we do I might end up coming to the trial at some point to hook up with them. It's a little out of my way so it depends on their travel arrangements. Might see you there.


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> into heading north after the trial to do some bird hunting. If we do I might end up coming to the trial at some point to hook up with them. It's a little out of my way so it depends on their travel arrangements. Might see you there.


Great Gavan! I'll no doubt be one of the bird planters unless I get fired from that job. I think Trent is judging the SE springer trial the next weekend too.

I take the 5th wheel up by Gaylord and spend a couple weeks harassing their birds.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> into heading north after the trial to do some bird hunting. If we do I might end up coming to the trial at some point to hook up with them. It's a *little out of my way* so it depends on their travel arrangements. Might see you there.


I'm not sure if your bragging or complaining
However I'm smoking 5 pork shoulders for the eat'in at lunches on Sat and Sunday and are planning on spaniel training Friday nite and Saturday night, before and after the trial
out back in the south 9..It's a mix of Switch and Indian grass.. bring your dogs & gun we 'll have some fun at LaubenHaid, before you go north hunting with Dauber.
I'll have birds..to answer that question..


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## Gavan

Still putting details together on this trip. I'll keep in touch.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> However I'm smoking 5 pork shoulders for the eat'in at lunches on Sat and Sunday


 
That makes me hungry So did this http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=433051


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> That makes me hungry So did this http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=433051


Good to hear! Just put 4 slabs of ribs in the smoker for lunch tommorrow after training Sat. ...Busy day... then spanking some doves Saturday late afternoon early evening No rest for the wicked:lol::lol: 
Got call my Amish guy he's got a cell answer machine...LOL


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## gundogguy

Field trials lighting up.. Long Island Open all-age Mike Wallace takes 1st2nd,3rd with his Cliff dog leading the way. Cliff's 15 or16th blue, 40 dogs in the Open?
Training with the the Great lakes club good grounds lousy scenting conditions weather fronts moving around, Mid Ohio trial no results as yet. things are going to get interesting..


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Field trials lighting up.. Long Island Open all-age Mike Wallace takes 1st2nd,3rd with his Cliff dog leading the way. Cliff's 15 or16th blue, 40 dogs in the Open?
> Training with the the Great lakes club good grounds lousy scenting conditions weather fronts moving around, Mid Ohio trial no results as yet. things are going to get interesting..


Thanks for the results. Clean sweep for Mike, nice job.

We have one more day of hunting tuneup. The dogs have made the step to grouse/woodcock cover pretty well over the last 2 days. The dogs have flushed a grouse and a woodcock on the training course the last couple of mornings. We've had a few hops after flushes, some warranted to move around cover to see the fall a couple opportunities for correction. We have kept them guessing with making them come in after the flush, shot, and fall, then being sent on retrieve. Have them leave the fall area and come back after next bird and make the retrieve. Plus some of Hal's tips of tossing a second bird in the area for a double. 

Hope all have a good Labor Day.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Field trials lighting up.. Long Island Open all-age Mike Wallace takes 1st2nd,3rd with his Cliff dog leading the way. Cliff's 15 or16th blue, 40 dogs in the Open?
> Training with the the Great lakes club good grounds lousy scenting conditions weather fronts moving around, Mid Ohio trial no results as yet. things are going to get interesting..


Hal isn't cliff the sire to your new pup? Is he/she at your place yet? Heck of a dog, very impressive!! 

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## dauber

A vid of Dante training this weekend.


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## gundogguy

Very good! Your still in the trial, you'll get call back for the 2nd, or under new state bird dog laws laws you may continue the hunt, your dog was proper!!:lol::lol:

Michgundog yes Cliff is the one, he would be on track for the Bird dog Hall fame.. with his performance record under Mike Wallace. His sire Zorro is a a Hall of fame dog , Mike also trained and handled Zorro.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Very good! Your still in the trial, you'll get call back for the 2nd, or under new state bird dog laws laws you may continue the hunt, your dog was proper!!:lol::lol:
> 
> Michgundog yes Cliff is the one, he would be on track for the Bird dog Hall fame.. with his performance record under Mike Wallace. His sire Zorro is a a Hall of fame dog , Mike also trained and handled Zorro.


Should be a great pups, especially when you factor the dams side. You bought two, right? One for you and one for Nancy? 

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----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Is this the weekend of the cocker trial in 3 rivers/Laubenhied(sp)?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 

Michgundog..
English cocker Parent club Trial, Constantine Mi Sept 22,23


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> English Cocker Parent Club Trial, Constantine Mi Sept 22,23


Steve,

Pls post up the placements from that trial. Inquiring Minds will want to know.

Are you running one of your biscuit eaters??

NB


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## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Steve,
> 
> Pls post up the placements from that trial. Inquiring Minds will want to know.
> 
> Are you running one of your biscuit eaters??
> 
> NB


Will as soon as I can unless gundogguy does. I don't have any internet once leaving home. My phone isn't smart enough:evil:. Karen can on the Monday after the trial.

No not running any of mine. Just helping out and Karen gets to watch. They get a few days of rest before getting back in battle for 10 days until their next day off, maybe.


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## The Doob

Training question:

Hunted the pup (Springer, nealry 9 months old) on some black pheasants this A.M. and things went well. Upon returning home, I opted to try a "hunt dead" training routine where you tie a dead bird halfway on a 50' check cord and then my buddy and I drag it through some 18" high weeds, laying a scent trail which, at it's conclusion, a second dead bird is thrown into the grass.

Go get the dog, walk him at heel to the (down wind) start point and then tell him "dead bird" - the same command used to send him on a retrieve. The dog casts off as though we are checking out a field and although his excitement level indicates to me that he has smelled the track, he does note immediately take to it. We continue into the wind with the dog, uber excited, casting back and forth. 

During this exercise, the dog does not "trail" the scent line layed down for him but at the end of the field, his casting back and forth brings him downwind of the dead bird. The scent detected about snaps him in half as he turns into it, locates the bird and retrieves same.

Now, I know he recognizes and eagerly pursues a pheasant and it's track. And the scenting conditions this morning were very good. I would have thought that he would have gotten on the track of the dead pheasant and trailed it to the end. Did I err using the same command as when sending him for a downed bird? I believe that this is a common training exercise for training a dog to trail dead but did I err in the execution of the test? Was it the dog's youthful exuberance that sends him racing to try and find what he just scented rather that follow the trail? Should I repeat this exercise hoping that the dog figures it out?

What do you think?


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## Gavan

A word of caution about "good" scenting conditions. There are times when spaniels can smell and produce birds at a great distance but can't take a track 10 feet. If the body scent and the bird are gone they look stupid, if the bird is there they can look like a million bucks. It is rare this time of year with warm temps, green cover, and stinky weeds to have a lot of success tracking birds.
Another concern with dragging a bird on a rope is that in addition to dead bird scent you are leaving human scent in the direction of the track as well which can be confusing to a young dog. And despite the fact that I'm sure you were your sneaky Elmer Fudd best and left him in the truck with a blindfold on these dogs are very smart. He probably figured out what was going on that coupled with the fact that he was smelling, you, your buddy, the dead bird, whatever you used the rope for last, etc. Also, could be that scenting was bad and he didn't smell anything until he found the dead bird. 
I like to use wing clipped pheasants or those with a broken wing for that purpose. Just throw them in the cover and if they are healthy they will take off running, hopefully downwind, and then you get your dog and release him to hopefully produce the bird. Success is what you are looking for rather than perfection in taking the track. Experience is the best teacher for a spaniel on moving birds and it just takes repetition. Style points are great but what you want is a spaniel that is a good bird producer. Hope this helps some.


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## Direwolf

Sounds like many of us had some luck over the weekend. 

I got my boy Pullo out (and my 8 year old son for that matter) Saturday morning for about an hour and a half, we put up four Grouse and got one... I had to explain to my son why we couldn't take the last bird we flushed... well, not flushed, more of put up into the nearest tree where it stared at us 

None the less, a great day out albeit a short one. Being gone as much as I have for work, I didn't get to properly condition Pullo so after the first hour it was obvious that he was worn out.


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## dauber

Very nice! Also great to see your son out there too!!


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> I like to use wing clipped pheasants or those with a broken wing for that purpose. Just throw them in the cover and if they are healthy they will take off running, hopefully downwind, and then you get your dog and release him to hopefully produce the bird. Success is what you are looking for rather than perfection in taking the track. Experience is the best teacher for a spaniel on moving birds and it just takes repetition. Style points are great but what you want is a spaniel that is a good bird producer. Hope this helps some.


+1
When conditioning a tracking and trailing behavior,this is not a hunt dead, hunt dead is something altogether different, using the method that Gavan wrote about i ALSO LIKE TO PAIR ONE OTHER STIMULI with the moving cripple, that stimuli is gunpowder. take your strong crippled pheasant or duck and "shoot him with a blank shell from either pistol or shotgun covering him with gun powder, Every bird we shoot is covered with gunpowder. when you turn your dog loose on the track be absolutly still, let the dog discover the joy of tracking on his own. This process will develop a faultless track and trailer.. There are more stimuli's that can be added to this conditioning drill but I leave that for later..


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## gundogguy

Direwolf said:


> Sounds like many of us had some luck over the weekend.
> 
> I got my boy Pullo out (and my 8 year old son for that matter) Saturday morning for about an hour and a half, we put up four Grouse and got one... I had to explain to my son why we couldn't take the last bird we flushed... well, not flushed, more of put up into the nearest tree where it stared at us
> 
> None the less, a great day out albeit a short one. Being gone as much as I have for work, I didn't get to properly condition Pullo so after the first hour it was obvious that he was worn out.


Nice to see "Titus Pullo" and his "Legionaire"


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## Rysalka

Got my first Grouse hunt in this season with my new 12 week old/new knees (had both replace)
Stuck to the two tracks as not ready or steady enough for true grouse cover yet.
Had Punk (Springer) heel then would send into likely looking cover, had two grouse flushes and one tree hopper, got one shot away and missed badly. Punk seems to like the new method as he stayed with my sister (fat Poodle owner, dog not sister) for 6 weeks and he looks much like a black and white cement block with legs, and the pink nail polish is starting to wear off. He does not much more stamina than I have.

Great day though looking forward to later hunts and next year when I have some miles on the knees will be great.

What's with the woodcock have seen more this year than last three years combined.


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## dauber

Rysalka said:


> Got my first Grouse hunt in this season with my new 12 week old/new knees (had both replace)
> Stuck to the two tracks as not ready or steady enough for true grouse cover yet.
> Had Punk (Springer) heel then would send into likely looking cover, had two grouse flushes and one tree hopper, got one shot away and missed badly. Punk seems to like the new method as he stayed with my sister (fat Poodle owner, dog not sister) for 6 weeks and he looks much like a black and white cement block with legs, and the pink nail polish is starting to wear off. He does not much more stamina than I have.
> 
> Great day though looking forward to later hunts and next year when I have some miles on the knees will be great.
> 
> What's with the woodcock have seen more this year than last three years combined.


Good report sir! My hats off to you having a pair done!! Going thru one was challenging enough. 

I'll be down in your country by Tuesday Sept. 25th and just checked I still have your phone#. Looking foirward to getting in some cover for you and helping wear that pink nail polish off spoiled Punk!


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## gundogguy

Very nice entry for the English Cocker Parent Club trial

25 open dogs 4 puppies Sept 22nd
24 open dogs 4 puppies sept 23rd


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Very nice entry for the English Cocker Parent Club trial
> 
> 25 open dogs 4 puppies Sept 22nd
> 24 open dogs 4 puppies sept 23rd


 
Good lineup. Here's a link to the running order.
http://www.fieldcockers.com/2012Premiums/MI_Running_Order.pdf

See you tomorrow.


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## Jim58

Are spectators welcome?


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## dauber

Jim58 said:


> Are spectators welcome?


You betcha!! Best spectator event in doggie games. You can walk in the gallery behind the mashall all day long and see the dogs work. ANd if you can get the trapper basket off one of the shaggers you have the best seat in teh house besides the judges. Many of the handleers will be walking along too and can answer questions. I'll be one of the bird planters, grab me and say hi Jim!


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## Gavan

Southern tier, NY springer trial so I won't see you but Jim O'Shea will be judging. Look him up and introduce yourself. He's coming up hunting with me in a couple of weeks. Try not to scare him too badly with wolf stories.....


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## dauber

Heading out now for a couple short hunts before packing up for 2 weeks. Go get em in NY!


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## Jim58

Will do Steve. Does the gallery need orange?


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## gundogguy

Jim58 said:


> Will do Steve. Does the gallery need orange?


AKC events required blaze orange by all involved in the field.
Spaniel trials allow for the closest view of all of the trial venues.
The gallery will be directly on the center line behind the braces in the first two series. and directly behind the judges and the dog running in the 3rd series. You can have just about as good view as you want.
See you there if you come out!


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## Steelheadfred




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## Jeffrey Towler

Steelheadfred said:


>


 Hi

Nice photo. Intense desire there.

regards
JT
SCI
RGS
www.marshhawkretrievers.com


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## Jim58

gundogguy said:


> AKC events required blaze orange by all involved in the field.
> Spaniel trials allow for the closest view of all of the trial venues.
> The gallery will be directly on the center line behind the braces in the first two series. and directly behind the judges and the dog running in the 3rd series. You can have just about as good view as you want.
> See you there if you come out!


Thanks Hal I'll see you one of the mornings.

Love that picture Fritz, its even the right color....:lol:


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## gundogguy

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hi
> 
> Nice photo. Intense desire there.
> 
> regards
> JT
> SCI
> RGS
> www.marshhawkretrievers.com


Cute puppie...but I would do something about that tumor growing off it's right shoulder:SHOCKED::yikes::SHOCKED::yikes: I never saw a tumor with sunglasses!


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## Steelheadfred

The more things change the more they stay the same 35 minutes in my first spot tonight, 10 flushes 3/3 shooting. 


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## JAM

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hi
> 
> Nice photo. Intense desire there.
> 
> regards
> JT
> SCI
> RGS
> www.marshhawkretrievers.com


Beautiful little pup. Congrats! Name? Breeding? Age? Anything else?


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## dauber

at the Tilden Valley trial!!


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## Steelheadfred

JAM said:


> Beautiful little pup. Congrats! Name? Breeding? Age? Anything else?


Thanks Jam, not my pup, just in my care for a while, almost four months, well adjusted little gal. Pretty, gets along with the labs fine and does not jump on the kids, tried to crawl in the bath with then though tonight.

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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> at the Tilden Valley trial!!


+1 do every thing you can do to stay in it till the end of the 3rd


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Southern tier, NY springer trial so I won't see you but Jim O'Shea will be judging. Look him up and introduce yourself. He's coming up hunting with me in a couple of weeks. Try not to scare him too badly with wolf stories.....


Seeing your going to NY I'll smoke 5 pork shoulders instead of 6.
Give a hey-hey to the Wilson's...Gary and George.
Safe travels!!


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## JAM

dauber said:


> at the Tilden Valley trial!!


Thanks, Dauber & GDG. We don't have any high hopes but will try to have fun. That's what it's all about anyway, hey?


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## Gavan

I'm sure that bologna sandwich I'll get tomorrow will be just as good as your pulled pork...NOT!


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> I'm sure that bologna sandwich I'll get tomorrow will be just as good as your pulled pork...NOT!


MMhhhhh a bologna sandwich and a tree hopper my kind of fun!
Wish I would of thought about bologna for the this Cocker crowd, after all they are just dog people:lol::lol:


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## I'm with Brandy

The Doob said:


> Training question:
> 
> Hunted the pup (Springer, nealry 9 months old) on some black pheasants this A.M. and things went well. Upon returning home, I opted to try a "hunt dead" training routine where you tie a dead bird halfway on a 50' check cord and then my buddy and I drag it through some 18" high weeds, laying a scent trail which, at it's conclusion, a second dead bird is thrown into the grass.
> 
> Go get the dog, walk him at heel to the (down wind) start point and then tell him "dead bird" - the same command used to send him on a retrieve. The dog casts off as though we are checking out a field and although his excitement level indicates to me that he has smelled the track, he does note immediately take to it. We continue into the wind with the dog, uber excited, casting back and forth.
> 
> During this exercise, the dog does not "trail" the scent line layed down for him but at the end of the field, his casting back and forth brings him downwind of the dead bird. The scent detected about snaps him in half as he turns into it, locates the bird and retrieves same.
> 
> Now, I know he recognizes and eagerly pursues a pheasant and it's track. And the scenting conditions this morning were very good. I would have thought that he would have gotten on the track of the dead pheasant and trailed it to the end. Did I err using the same command as when sending him for a downed bird? I believe that this is a common training exercise for training a dog to trail dead but did I err in the execution of the test? Was it the dog's youthful exuberance that sends him racing to try and find what he just scented rather that follow the trail? Should I repeat this exercise hoping that the dog figures it out?
> 
> What do you think?


I use one command for retreiving "Fetch"
Command to hunt "Get Out"
A different one for blinds "Dead Bird - Back"
And a different one for trailing a bird "Hunt Dead" 

When teaching hunt dead kneel down with the dog where the scent trail starts and point to the ground and give the dog the command (in my case Hunt Dead) and let the dog take its time with the scent. Start off with easy short hunts and over time strech them out and make then harder.


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## I'm with Brandy

Direwolf said:


> Sounds like many of us had some luck over the weekend.
> 
> I got my boy Pullo out (and my 8 year old son for that matter) Saturday morning for about an hour and a half, we put up four Grouse and got one... I had to explain to my son why we couldn't take the last bird we flushed... well, not flushed, more of put up into the nearest tree where it stared at us
> 
> None the less, a great day out albeit a short one. Being gone as much as I have for work, I didn't get to properly condition Pullo so after the first hour it was obvious that he was worn out.


Pullo looks good. How much does he weight now?


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## Direwolf

I'm with Brandy said:


> Pullo looks good. How much does he weight now?


He is still hanging around 65 pounds. Will you and Brandy be down this year for a hunt?


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## Direwolf

Steelheadfred said:


>


Just look at that face!


----------



## The Doob

Thank you for all the replies on the "hunt dead" training for Sully. Had him with me this weekend in the UP for the duck opener and we ran some covers for grouse and woodcock as well. Moved a lot of woodcock but not a lot of grouse. We did manage to take 8 ducks in a half day hunt - son had to leave to go back to work this morning.

We did not take Sully on the duck trip - to many unknowns for us and with the potential for problems, thought it best to wait. He did flush a number of the woodcock and a grouse right in front of my son (a miss :sad He got to spend a few days in "camp" and did very well - he is well on his way to being the rough shooting dog that I envisioned.


----------



## gundogguy

The Doob said:


> Thank you for all the replies on the "hunt dead" training for Sully. Had him with me this weekend in the UP for the duck opener and we ran some covers for grouse and woodcock as well. Moved a lot of woodcock but not a lot of grouse. We did manage to take 8 ducks in a half day hunt - son had to leave to go back to work this morning.
> 
> We did not take Sully on the duck trip - to many unknowns for us and with the potential for problems, thought it best to wait. He did flush a number of the woodcock and a grouse right in front of my son (a miss :sad He got to spend a few days in "camp" and did very well - he is well on his way to being the rough shooting dog that I envisioned.


Good job Doob! sounds like you are easing Sully into service and allowing him to grow into his work. Extremely important not to overwelm a dog at his age...you want him Underwelmed at this point i his development.

Placements Michigan Cocker Trial





Sat open... 
1st Lisa, Rumi Schroeder
2nd macey Jim Karlovec
3rd Bueller, Rumi Schroeder
4th Duke.. Hudson Nichols, handled by Kim Wiley
Guns Guns award Lisa

Sun Open
1st Beetle, Joe DeMarkis
2nd Gwen, Bethann Wiley
3rd Teddy, Chuck Nelson
4th Duke.. Hudson Nichols, handled by Kim Wiley
Guns award Duke


----------



## Jim58

gundogguy said:


> Good job Doob! sounds like you are easing Sully into service and allowing him to grow into his work. Extremely important not to overwelm a dog at his age...you want him Underwelmed at this point i his development.
> 
> Placements Michigan Cocker Trial
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sat open...
> 1st Lisa, Rumi Schroeder
> 2nd macey Jim Karlovec
> 3rd Bueller, Rumi Schroeder
> 4th Duke.. Hudson Nichols, handled by Kim Wiley
> Guns Guns award Lisa
> 
> Sun Open
> 1st Beetle, Joe DeMarkis
> 2nd Gwen, Bethann Wiley
> 3rd Teddy, Chuck Nelson
> 4th Duke.. Hudson Nichols, handled by Kim Wiley
> Guns award Duke


Congrats to all.
The wife and had a great time watching a few of the dogs run. We got to see Macey run among a few others and was a really good experience. The weather turned bad and chased us off but was well worth the effort. Wife had her eye on someones liver puppy in the back of an suv but was told it was sold. You never know!

Jim


----------



## michgundog

The Doob said:


> Thank you for all the replies on the "hunt dead" training for Sully. Had him with me this weekend in the UP for the duck opener and we ran some covers for grouse and woodcock as well. Moved a lot of woodcock but not a lot of grouse. We did manage to take 8 ducks in a half day hunt - son had to leave to go back to work this morning.
> 
> We did not take Sully on the duck trip - to many unknowns for us and with the potential for problems, thought it best to wait. He did flush a number of the woodcock and a grouse right in front of my son (a miss :sad He got to spend a few days in "camp" and did very well - he is well on his way to being the rough shooting dog that I envisioned.


Dale,

Sounds like Sully is doing great and can find all the game birds Michigan has to offer. Are you going to take him out on the Sag bay this year?

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----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Thanks for the placements report, Hal.

Sounds like the weather may have played a factor at that trial, it was pretty miserable up here almost all weekend. But thats "field trial luck". 
Enter enough, and it all evens out.

NB


----------



## The Doob

Mike,
That is my intention - but will pick and choose the right spot/time.

The situation is in flux due to the low water and the very distinct possibility that my big floater won't make it off the shore. Presently in the engineering process to determine if we can turn the axle underneath the blind into some sort of retractable wheel. The blind will float in ten inches of water but with the axles underneath to take the beast down the road, the blind requires 2+ feet of water. Water which we do not have!!!!!!

On a more positive note, I ran Sully on some state land yesterday and he trailed and flushed two roosters. Looks like the young ones have started to figure things out as Sully had to trail/track them for a great distance before they flushed. For his part, Sully seems to be picking up on the trailing program. Earlier, when he would strike scent he just kind of ran around all excited - maybe/probably because the broods were still together and sitting pretty tight. I know he likes the "light at the end of the tunnel" i.e. bird flush, shot and retrieve


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Thanks for the placements report, Hal.
> 
> Sounds like the weather may have played a factor at that trial, it was pretty miserable up here almost all weekend. But thats "field trial luck".
> Enter enough, and it all evens out.
> 
> NB


The weather was not the factor one might think. I walked the 1st series both days. Great birds, experienced planters and dogs with strong flushes provided for some exciting moments. The few traps i witnessed were more dog related (weak flushes) than weather issues. Some of those dogs might have gone to the 2nd but none of those dogs went to the 3rd. The Dog to watch this fall is Hobson Brown's Duke handle by Kim Wiley. Duke ran 6 series in the two days. Strong and consisitent.... Power and balance...The only dog that caught both judges eye and place both days..


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Some of those dogs might have gone to the 2nd but none of those dogs went to the 3rd. The Dog to watch this fall is Hobson Brown's Duke handle by Kim Wiley. Duke ran 6 series in the two days. Strong and consisitent.... Power and balance...The only dog that caught both judges eye and place both days..


Hal is correct on the scenting conditions were very good this weekend with temp and wet conditions. The bird planters tried to do there best, but the birds were excellent which helps greatly.  The only correction is that Duke is owned by Hudson Nichols. That is a real nice dog. 5 dogs made the 3rd both days of the trial. The trial is always a great time and a great chance to see some great dog work. :lol:


----------



## Jim58

I dont know where the birds came from but they were great flyers, the rain didnt seem to bother them at all. My wife on the other hand wanted to sit tight once the rain started.

We tried to look you up Hal but you must have been working on the bbq, checked in the barn but no one was there. I did get a chance to talk to Jeff for a few minutes tho.

Steve you were busy planting birds so we didnt get a chance to say hi. We had planned on staying longer but when the rain picked up I decided to take she who must be obeyed on a dryer adventure.

Jim


----------



## JAM

Congrats to the Cocker Trial winners! Love those little dogs and know some of the handlers from spaniel hunt tests and springer trials - the Wileys, Shroeders, and Chuck Nelson (who was one of the judges when my Bullet won the Amateur in '08).

The Tilden Valley ESS Club's trial went well. It was our first time on new grounds. With the drought our usual grounds were not usable. The cover was nonexistent. Those grounds consist of relatively flat fields. The new grounds were a combo of hills, some trees, stumps and downed trees - much more like a natural hunting setting. The weather was cool, windy and rainy which was a little miserable for handlers but great for the dogs. 

We had a very large entry with 49 Open, 37 Amateur and 7 Puppy entries. There were a few scratches (maybe 3?).

I don't remember all the placements but here are some I remember:

Open
1st Sky Diamond "Lucy" - Owner Kim Hansen, Handler Ken Willis
2nd FC Lighthouse Finn MH "Finn" - Owner Sue Myers & Bob Biederman, Handler Jason Givens

Amateur
1st Melchris Advocate "Cate" - O/H Don Brunn

Puppy
1st Legg's Rock River Ranger "Ranger" - Owner Alan Legg, Handler Jeff Schwartz

4th Z&Z Sky Dancer of Fallen Wings "Skittles" - Owner Rumi & Mike Schroeder, Handler Pete Zuleger

I'll fill in the rest of the placements as soon as my memory is refreshed.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> W
> Open
> 1st Sky Diamond "Lucy" - Owner Kim Hansen, Handler *Ken Willis*
> 2nd FC Lighthouse Finn MH "Finn" - Owner Sue Myers & Bob Biederman, Handler Jason Givens
> 
> Amateur
> 1st Melchris Advocate "Cate" - O/H *Don Brunn*
> 
> Puppy
> 1st Legg's Rock River Ranger "Ranger" - Owner Alan Legg, Handler Jeff Schwartz
> 
> 4th Z&Z Sky Dancer of Fallen Wings "Skittles" - Owner Rumi & Mike Schroeder, Handler Pete Zuleger
> 
> I'll fill in the rest of the placements as soon as my memory is refreshed.


Jam, Thanks for the Northern Report, tickle me to see Kenny W and Donnie B. Back in the chips
I trust that things and life are well for Bob and Archie.

Southern Mi this week in Onstead , approximately 50 dogs, Open + Amateur stakes


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Southern Mi this week in Onstead , approximately 50 dogs, Open + Amateur stakes


Good luck to Nancy and Reggie!! 

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----------



## JAM

Bob and Archie are fine. Bob's off to NWSC trial in Sturgeon Bay this weekend. He also has some judging assignments coming up.

Good luck to the SM trialers!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Hal is correct on the scenting conditions were very good this weekend with temp and wet conditions. The bird planters tried to do there best, but the birds were excellent which helps greatly.  *The only correction is that Duke is owned by Hudson Nichols.* That is a real nice dog. 5 dogs made the 3rd both days of the trial. The trial is always a great time and a great chance to see some great dog work. :lol:


:yikes: I just hate it when I get my Hudson's and Hobson's mixed-up:yikes:


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Direwolf said:


> He is still hanging around 65 pounds. Will you and Brandy be down this year for a hunt?


Let me know when and I will be there.


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Good luck to Nancy and Reggie!!
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Thanks Mike, Reggie is ready, I'm not sure about his handler,whether or not she will be on the same page. we will see,what we will see. The speed of the game has increased so in the last few years that ground pounding dogs maybe passe, We will see what we see!


----------



## gundogguy

Who has placements for the Southern Michigan All age Saturday 9/29?


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Who has placements for the Southern Michigan All age Saturday 9/29?


I got this from a FB page:

SMSSTC. Open FC AFC Lighthouse's Gone Fishin wins with Mark Gebert handling

Don't know about the rest of the placements though.


----------



## gundogguy

Thanks Jam, just in for a bite, Great morning training session.


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> I got this from a FB page:
> 
> SMSSTC. Open FC AFC Lighthouse's Gone Fishin wins with Mark Gebert handling
> 
> Don't know about the rest of the placements though.


They should be posted soon to the SMSSTC web site soon. I had them written down but I misplaced my running order/catalog. As far as the correct order and dog names I would be going off memory. I do know that John Skiba took first today with Millie. 

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----------



## Steelheadfred

Kept our heads down and our running shoes tight, hummed on those whistles. 

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----------



## gundogguy

Stealhead, As the the "Church lady says isn't that special"!
Thanks for your contribution!

Hey Michigundog, thanks for the Amateur info!


----------



## Steelheadfred

Thanks Hal, you are correct, it was special, a great day with great dog work chasing wild birds in pure MI. colors are awesome right now. My buddies cocker was great yesterday despite his CDR influence.

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----------



## sgc

Steelhead,
Just curious, how close that Cocker hunts for Grouse; also, does he quarter a lot or mostly hunt objectives? (this is a serious question - I really want to know).


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Good Going, Mrs. Dauber. She's a heck of a good hunting and spaniel training partner.
> Head to 'da UP ourselves this morning for a few. I've got my raincoat! Later.
> NB


plus she cooks! Corn chowder so smooth and sweet and fried grouse that melts in your mouth last night

Yes bring rain gear it even rained a bit yesterday on our sunny day. Go get em and have a great time!!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Mrs. dauber got a limit of woodcock on our first walk today plus latter put a grouse on the ground.


:woohoo1: That's awesome!


----------



## Steelheadfred

Crow, its not what's for dinner.



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----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> :woohoo1: That's awesome!


Thanks JAM! I'm glad when she shoots em, saves on my ailing shoulder. 

Here is her first today, took about 5 minutes of walking. 

Today's lesson was go slow and make sure the dog covers the ground. Right out of the box Smoke was tracking grouse, he kept wanting to punch out on the track, but I kept giving him "come around" commands to cover the ground. About 5 minutes latter one flushes way out front of us, but Smoke was quartering between us and put this old guy up right between us. If I had let him chase the runner we would have walked right by this guy, instead he will be part of another grouse dinner.


----------



## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Crow, its not what's for dinner.
> 
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Chicken fingers?? My son's favorite, I'll take the stuff in the brown bottle. 

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----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> got out for a few short hunts yesterday between showers and hail. We were able to get all 3 cockers out for a hunt each and moved quite a birds of all kinds.
> 
> sgc's Jack made a great find deep in the cedar swamp thru bunches of windfall cedar and spruce on this runner grouse.
> 
> Sure was enjoyable spending a few hours in the woods with Sgc and Jack.


Stan, glad to see you and Jack made it out, I'm sure it was a great trip. Thanks for sharing the picture. 

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----------



## Steelheadfred

michgundog said:


> Chicken fingers?? My son's favorite, I'll take the stuff in the brown bottle.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Mike, is that what those small fast birds in the swamps up north are? White meat, makes sense.

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----------



## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Mike, is that what those small fast birds in the swamps up north are? White meat, makes sense.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


What about the brown bottle??? 

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----------



## gundogguy

Springer's and Field Spaniels Zeta got a little refresher course on the table>
Adding the hup command and release command


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Springer's and Field Spaniels Zeta got a little refresher course on the table>
> Adding the hup command and release command


Wow, one of her first steady retrieves! Very good girl!!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Springer's and Field Spaniels Zeta got a little refresher course on the table>
> Adding the hup command and release command
> 
> Zeta Oct21 refresherbumps - YouTube


Looking good Hal, keep posting the videos. 

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----------



## gundogguy

Making finds and bringing them in to hand!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLdnTSLoIsU&feature=youtu.be




Moved up to hard knobby bumper with occasional cold dead pigeon.

Teething process has begun will give her some time off from retrieving work while that new toofers are coming in.Cover runs and exploration time will be in order for a couple of weeks. Trained retrieve process will begin once the adult teeth settle in. Then on to quartering intro to gun, whistle work and steadying.
"Plan your work work your plan"


----------



## Jeffrey Towler




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## Jeffrey Towler




----------



## dauber

Very nice Jeffrey!!


----------



## dauber

before the bayonets are fixed for the western campaign. I'm really looking forward to a diet change to western roosters:evil:. The boys should be tuned up after 30 fun filled days in the grouse/woodcock woods. It will be fun watching them work the prairie now.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

dauber said:


> before the bayonets are fixed for the western campaign. I'm really looking forward to a diet change to western roosters:evil:. The boys should be tuned up after 30 fun filled days in the grouse/woodcock woods. It will be fun watching them work the prairie now.


 
Have a safe trip, please post some pics of your western trip

Regards
JT


----------



## JAM

Managed to get out for a couple of hours this afternoon and got one! Put up quite a few but only had a shot at this one. 

Stormy's Yummy Grouse
Rock, MI 10-23-12


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

JAM said:


> Managed to get our for a couple of hours this afternoon and got one! Put up quite a few but only had a shot at this one.
> 
> Stormy's Yummy Grouse
> Rock, MI 10-23-12


 Great Photo! Thats the way to do it.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Managed to get our for a couple of hours this afternoon and got one! Put up quite a few but only had a shot at this one.
> 
> Stormy's Yummy Grouse
> Rock, MI 10-23-12


:woohoo1:Fantastic JAM and Stormy!! Great picture, thanks for posting.


----------



## michgundog

Good day so far no rain yet.

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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Good day so far no rain yet.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Hey good job Mike that little dog is paying some dividends now, eh


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Hey good job Mike that little dog is paying some dividends now, eh


Thanks Hal, yes he's doing well. I only delivered the knock down punch. Finn put in the knock out with a fine tracking job. The rooster was one tough nut without the dog he would have never flushed and would've ran off somewhere and died.

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----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Thanks Hal, yes he's doing well. I only delivered the knock down punch. *Finn put in the knock out with a fine tracking job. The rooster was one tough nut without the dog he would have never flushed and would've ran off somewhere and died.*
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good genes, Good training, always puts the bird where you want them.
How many wild pheasants has Finn handled?


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> It is quite the accomplishment to make it thru the 5 series as Hal said above. Now for the water!


Placements 2012 National Cocker Championships

1st Place - Cairo H: Paul McGagh O: Deb Strohl
2nd Place - Bueller - O/H Rumi Schroeder
3rd Place - Gilly - O/H A.R. Ginn
4th Place - Mulligan -O/H Dominque Savoie


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Guys and Gals,

Truck is packed, Toby, Willie and Reba CDs loaded. Pick up my longtime partner at "0 Dark 30". Headed to the Dakotas for two weeks. Will file a trip report later. Hunt Safe everybody and Shoot Straight!

NB


----------



## JAM

Congrats to the ECS National placements. Nice job! Also congrats to the local successful hunters and good luck to the hunting travelers. Looking forward to the reports.

Here's my Bullet with a grouse from this afternoon. We only got out for about an hour and managed to put up 3 and bag 1.


----------



## Jim58

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Guys and Gals,
> 
> Truck is packed, Toby, Willie and Reba CDs loaded. Pick up my longtime partner at "0 Dark 30". Headed to the Dakotas for two weeks. Will file a trip report later. Hunt Safe everybody and Shoot Straight!
> 
> NB


Have fun and a safe trip.

Jim

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----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Guys and Gals,
> 
> Truck is packed, Toby, Willie and Reba CDs loaded. Pick up my longtime partner at "0 Dark 30". Headed to the Dakotas for two weeks. Will file a trip report later. Hunt Safe everybody and Shoot Straight!
> 
> NB


Have a great trip Rod post lots of pics.


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----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> Congrats to the ECS National placements. Nice job! Also congrats to the local successful hunters and good luck to the hunting travelers. Looking forward to the reports.
> 
> Here's my Bullet with a grouse from this afternoon. We only got out for about an hour and managed to put up 3 and bag 1.


Nice looking dog! Good job. 

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----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Good genes, Good training, always puts the bird where you want them.
> How many wild pheasants has Finn handled?


He really hasn't had that many wild pheasants shot over him. He's only 4 and for the first 2 seasons he rode the bench. I'm fortunate enough to have 3 other real good springers Indy, jazzy and Brit. Indy is the son to your York dog. Brit is 13 now and can hardly hear, but still likes to get out in the field. I just stay far away from corn fields.Finn's genes are top notch though, he has an extra gear he can kick in on those running pheasants. It's real awesome to see.

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----------



## Jeffrey Towler

JAM said:


> Congrats to the ECS National placements. Nice job! Also congrats to the local successful hunters and good luck to the hunting travelers. Looking forward to the reports.
> 
> Here's my Bullet with a grouse from this afternoon. We only got out for about an hour and managed to put up 3 and bag 1.


Very nice !


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Nice looking dog! Good job.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Lovely,Your dog work gunning and photoging is excellent!
______________________________________________________

http://www.essft.com/2012nac/homeA.html
*2012 National Amateur Championship
*[SIZE=+1]*Ogden, Utah*[/SIZE]
*Judges: Tim Edwards and Gary Wilson
Monday, November 12, to conclusion
_____________________________________________________

http://www.essft.com/2012noc/home.html
*
* [SIZE=+3]2012 National Championship
[/SIZE]**Sunday, November 25, 2012 to conclusion
Pinckneyville Illinois
*
*Judges: Alice Stewart and Jim Keller

*


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Lovely,Your dog work gunning and photoging is excellent!
> ______________________________________________________
> 
> http://www.essft.com/2012nac/homeA.html
> *2012 National Amateur Championship
> *[SIZE=+1]*Ogden, Utah*[/SIZE]
> *Judges: Tim Edwards and Gary Wilson
> Monday, November 12, to conclusion
> _____________________________________________________
> 
> http://www.essft.com/2012noc/home.html
> *
> * [SIZE=+3]2012 National Championship
> [/SIZE]**Sunday, November 25, 2012 to conclusion
> Pinckneyville Illinois
> *
> *Judges: Alice Stewart and Jim Keller
> 
> *


Thank you. I really enjoy training, hunting and photographing the dogs. You don't get many pictures of your own dogs when you're the one behind the camera. 

Looking forward to following the Nationals. Thanks for the info!


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> He really *hasn't had that many wild pheasants shot over him. He's only 4 and for the first 2 seasons *
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


That right! It really does not take a good, well trained dogs long to figure out the antics of wild birds. Training is the "glue " that teaches a dog how to learn and keeping pressing on. Training is the "heat" that "tempers" a dog much like fire tempers steel!
Quite honestly if I had a dog that needed very many contacts with wild birds to figure it out, some nice new family would have a lovely pet. And that's a fact jack. Regardless of the breed or venue


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> That right! It really does not take a good, well trained dogs long to figure out the antics of wild birds. Training is the "glue " that teaches a dog how to learn and keeping pressing on. Training is the "heat" that "tempers" a dog much like fire tempers steel!
> Quite honestly if I had a dog that needed very many contacts with wild birds to figure it out, some nice new family would have a lovely pet. And that's a fact jack. Regardless of the breed or venue


A friend of mine who campaigns several dogs in trials both came to the agreement. The training it takes to be competitive in an AKC sanctioned trial will pay big dividends in pheasant hunting. 

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----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> A friend of mine who campaigns several dogs in trials both came to the agreement. The training it takes to be competitive in an AKC sanctioned trial will pay big dividends in pheasant hunting.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


+1 Not all pups out of the nesting box will make FC,that's a given though if said pupster were given half a chance to learn the basics that future trial pups are given folks would have a whole lot better hunting companion.

The spaniel trial training system lends itself to building great gun dogs. If for no other reason, and there are many, the process teaches the dog how to learn, and the handler how to maintain standards.

The high end retriever folks have Carr and Walther's to look to for the system used today, Pointing dog folks have Smith and Wehle, and we Spaniel folks have Goodall. As an aside there where others as well. These visionaries helped the breeds involved in the venues that they held a passion for developing logical and conclusive systems of growth and development of standards for the various sporting venues. And thru that development, great gun dogs would be the by product.
Never let Finn stop learning!
Have fun!


----------



## gundogguy

Nancy and Zeta having some fun on a cold windy morning!






She will be 16 weeks old Monday the 8th
mark and deliver to hand!!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Nancy and Zeta having some fun on a cold windy morning!
> 
> zeta 1102b - YouTube
> 
> She will be 16 weeks old Monday the 8th
> mark and deliver to hand!!


Looking good Hal, keep posting videos.
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## gundogguy

good day! Gotta love it when a plan comes together. Flushing dogs having a ball!


----------



## gundogguy

4 boys 6 girls
Sassy X Freedom breeding 
These will be hi-performance spaniels
Babies at Salmy Kennels


----------



## JAM

Love the puppy pics! WOW! 10 is a big litter.

Also, really enjoy the training videos of Zeta. She's GREAT! Congrats!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> 4 boys 6 girls
> Sassy X Freedom breeding
> These will be hi-performance spaniels
> Babies at Salmy Kennels


Nice pups!

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## gundogguy

Zeta 16 weeks old tomorrow, setting on a mark from the table.
as you can see the table is a real "torture chamber"


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Zeta 16 weeks old tomorrow, setting on a mark from the table.
> as you can see the table is a real "torture chamber"


Nice looking pup Hal. Not to give away any of your trade secrets, but what type of table work are you doing with zeta, currently?

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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Nice looking pup Hal. *Not to give away any* *of your trade secrets*, but what type of table work are you doing with zeta, currently?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks Mike, Though i have to confess nice looking is not what we were interested in, if it was we would got a beautiful ESS show dog. Nice working is what we want.. in that photo, I see intensity, focus and desire
No Trade secrets here, i use the table for just about every facet of introductory training regardless of breed. 
In Zeta's case Here,Hup,appropriate reponse to voice or whistle, marking delivery of the object,bird or bumper, trained retrieved,
introduction to gun fire,steadiness.. the table becomes a safe place to intro all new elements of the working dogs experience in the field. and as she ages and matures more coplicated behaviors will be taught from the table...Before we go back to the training grounds And ..this is important, if glitches or issues develop it is a great place to go back to in helping the pupil sort out the confusion and regain their confidence..Both for the dog and the handler...

Also in her case at about 12 weeks of age eval's were made as to basic running style, pace and atheletisim and the abilty to multi task...carry and item and jump up on the table ....she passed with flying colors...stay tuned have fun


----------



## gundogguy

Dave Huiss and his Tommie girl out for a proofing session.


----------



## gundogguy

Litter mate to his Tommie dog.
Chuck and David out on a proofing run! Just having fun!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Thanks Mike, Though i have to confess nice looking is not what we were interested in, if it was we would got a beautiful ESS show dog. Nice working is what we want.. in that photo, I see intensity, focus and desire
> No Trade secrets here, i use the table for just about every facet of introductory training regardless of breed.
> In Zeta's case Here,Hup,appropriate reponse to voice or whistle, marking delivery of the object,bird or bumper, trained retrieved,
> introduction to gun fire,steadiness.. the table becomes a safe place to intro all new elements of the working dogs experience in the field. and as she ages and matures more coplicated behaviors will be taught from the table...Before we go back to the training grounds And ..this is important, if glitches or issues develop it is a great place to go back to in helping the pupil sort out the confusion and regain their confidence..Both for the dog and the handler...
> 
> Also in her case at about 12 weeks of age eval's were made as to basic running style, pace and atheletisim and the abilty to multi task...carry and item and jump up on the table ....she passed with flying colors...stay tuned have fun


Thanks for the info. Hal.

I guess I was speaking in general terms based on the videos and still shot. Keep the updates and videos coming. 

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## dauber

left in our western rooster trip! FInally made it back into internet area, at least sporatic. Been a tough year for us overall, but have had some excellent days and quite a few less than good days. Today as we are moving eastward we ran into quite a few huns! Karen was able to bag her first western hun today. 

Lots of the CRP is mowed this year due to the drought, making it tougher to find good flusher hunting areas. 

We'll post some more pictures when we get home latter this weekend.


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> Thanks for the info. Hal.
> 
> I guess I was speaking in general terms based on the videos and still shot. Keep the updates and videos coming.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


+1 
Looks like we have lots to catch up on next week!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Congrats to the ECS National placements. Nice job! Also congrats to the local successful hunters and good luck to the hunting travelers. Looking forward to the reports.
> 
> Here's my Bullet with a grouse from this afternoon. We only got out for about an hour and managed to put up 3 and bag 1.


Good job JAM and Bullet! Nice pic.


----------



## gundogguy

Hey Dauber thanks for checking in. Glad you doing well.


----------



## gundogguy

Jeffrey taking some grief for chopping the bird


----------



## Steelheadfred

Performance CDRs all season long.

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## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Performance CDRs all season long.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Nice picture Fritz, what happened to the cocker? Here's a couple springer pics

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## michgundog

Here's a pic of my new boy, no action shots yet only 9 weeks.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Performance CDRs all season long.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Steelie if you need some Spaniel pics I'll be glad to sell you some! Price will be a special for forum members and Spaniel wannabe"s


----------



## kellyM87

999........


----------



## kellyM87

1000! I have been waiting to do that since post like 600 lol. What a great thread... to bad I don't have a flusher.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Hope you have the battery charged in your camera 'cause we'll be waiting for the pics. Can hardly wait to see the new addition.


We'll get some pictures if we can keep up with the little feller. We'll honk on our way thru your area JAM


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> We'll get some pictures if we can keep up with the little feller. We'll honk on our way thru your area JAM


_Safe travels Steve and Karen, will be on the look-out for pics of the little rascal._


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

dauber said:


> We'll get some pictures if we can keep up with the little feller. We'll honk on our way thru your area JAM


 Please post pics. I can't wait to see them. Love pups

Regards
JT


----------



## dauber

pictures of the pupster "Fallen Wings Zbb of Furlong" "Zac". We thought of the name now that we know his color.:evil:

This was our potty stop at Cedar River, MI. He made the ride home fine without a peep and 2 potty stops. Now the fun starts eh!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> pictures of the pupster "Fallen Wings Zbb of Furlong" "Zac". We thought of the name now that we know his color.:evil:
> 
> This was our potty stop at Cedar River, MI. He made the ride home fine without a peep and 2 potty stops. Now the fun starts eh!


OMG! What a doll! Congrats. I'm JEALOUS!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> OMG! What a doll! Congrats. I'm JEALOUS!


We honked on our way through Rapid River at 4:30pm!! Thanks JAM.


----------



## michgundog

Nice looking pup Steve. Looks like the "spaniel corner " will have lots of puppy pictures this winter. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## JAM

dauber said:


> We honked on our way through Rapid River at 4:30pm!! Thanks JAM.


Oh. That was you! I wondered what all the noise was about.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

Dauber, very nice looking pup


----------



## gundogguy

*CUTE!* I hate cute! "Now the fun begins" oh you'll have a ball!


----------



## The Doob

Cute!!! That is just God's way of enticing us to go through everything it takes to get them to be useful adults. According to my son, a puppy is the quickest way their is to attract young females.

Unfortunately for me, it would have taken a whole litter for them to take notice of my mug :yikes: :lol:


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

dauber said:


> pictures of the pupster "Fallen Wings Zbb of Furlong" "Zac". We thought of the name now that we know his color.:evil:
> 
> This was our potty stop at Cedar River, MI. He made the ride home fine without a peep and 2 potty stops. Now the fun starts eh!


looks like a real nice pup to me.


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> 71 Dogs entered 2 scratches 69 dogs thru the 1st series. 61 dogs called backed to the 2nd
> 
> http://www.essft.com/2012nac/callbacks.html


NAC 18 dogs back to the fifth series and water

PHOTOS...http://www.essft.com/2012nac/photos/Wednesday/two/day3page2.html


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> NAC 18 dogs back to the fifth series and water
> 
> PHOTOS...http://www.essft.com/2012nac/photos/Wednesday/two/day3page2.html


Wow what a beautiful place to run a trial! The best of the best today. My hats off to all who have survived to the 5th!


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Wow what a beautiful place to run a trial! The best of the best today. My hats off to all who have survived to the 5th!


I hope to see Rosebay Clover or one of Russ Smith's dogs in the top 4!!

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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I hope to see Rosebay Clover or one of Russ Smith's dogs in the top 4!!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Sorry Michgundog unless I read the call backs wrong Clover is gone and a Good ole Russ is off the board prolly on his way back to Ohio or Illinois for the Open..


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Sorry Michgundog unless I read the call backs wrong Clover is gone and a Good ole Russ is off the board prolly on his way back to Ohio or Illinois for the Open..


I probably read them wrong. Still good to give a shout out! There's always next year.

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## 2ESRGR8

michgundog clean out your PM folder. :help:


----------



## michgundog

2ESRGR8 said:


> michgundog clean out your PM folder. :help:


Sorry, I just did. Please resend. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

dauber said:


> Wow what a beautiful place to run a trial! The best of the best today. My hats off to all who have survived to the 5th!


16 dogs made it to water! Way to go!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> 16 dogs made it to water! Way to go!



NAC 2012 Placements:

*First - "Pete" O/H Mike Leonetti
Second - "Tanner " - O/H Jeff Miller
Third - "Skagit" - Kathy Sleavin
Fourth - "Ellie" - Rick Schneider

*A couple new comers 1st and 3rd and a couple of old timers 2nd and fourth


National Open Championships convenes on the 25th, the Sunday after Thanksgiving.
Southern Illinois is the location..

http://www.essft.com/2012noc/home.html

120 dogs entered for the venue here in the Mid-west


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> NAC 2012 Placements:
> 
> *First - "Pete" O/H Mike Leonetti*
> *Second - "Tanner " - O/H Jeff Miller*
> *Third - "Skagit" - Kathy Sleavin*
> *Fourth - "Ellie" - Rick Schneider*
> 
> A couple new comers 1st and 3rd and a couple of old timers 2nd and fourth
> 
> 
> National Open Championships convenes on the 25th, the Sunday after Thanksgiving.
> Southern Illinois is the location..
> 
> http://www.essft.com/2012noc/home.html
> 
> 120 dogs entered for the venue here in the Mid-west


Thanks for posting Hal. Congrats to the Place winners!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Thanks for posting Hal. Congrats to the Place winners!


----------



## JackieTreeHorn

Doob any developments on the boykin?


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## The Doob

Jackie,
Nothing new on "Hank" - I think my son is talking with the breeder (Phil at Brandywine Boykins) reference a possible solution. He is still willing to entertain other "options"


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Thanks for posting Hal. Congrats to the Place winners!


Yes, Hal, thanks for the updates, good job. Looking at the dogs in the am national line up, shows even being an ametur in that game is not easy .....


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## michgundog

Took the pup out for a walk in the afternoon while deer hunting. Wow , I remember why I like bird hunting so much. Looking at the same trees all gets very boring !! Sure is better than work anyday!! 

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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Took the pup out for a walk in the afternoon while deer hunting. Wow , I remember why I like bird hunting so much. Looking at the same trees all gets very boring !! Sure is better than work anyday!!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Now that is a better pic of the new white face pup. Who is he out of?
Where did he come from? I had one of those only 8 weeks ago, wow times fly by.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> pictures of the pupster "Fallen Wings Zbb of Furlong" "Zac". We thought of the name now that we know his color.:evil:
> 
> This was our potty stop at Cedar River, MI. He made the ride home fine without a peep and 2 potty stops. Now the fun starts eh!


He's a cute little bugger alright, Steve! Puppy Envy here!

But how the heck did you come up with that NAME??

LUV the L&W makings, very "cockery looking". Looks alot like Ernie's Rocky who was National Champion.

What's that pedigree behind him again?

NB


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Now that is a better pic of the new white face pup. Who is he out of?
> Where did he come from? I had one of those only 8 weeks ago, wow times fly by.


My Finn sired the litter the momma dog is a Saradynpark Bitc$ out of South Bend. I prefer the solid head look, but I've never had one so much white on the face. I'm hoping he gets a lot of ticking like his dad.


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## 2ESRGR8

How about some pics of Finn?


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## michgundog

2ESRGR8 said:


> How about some pics of Finn?


Here's one from a few weeks ago.

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## michgundog

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> He's a cute little bugger alright, Steve! Puppy Envy here!
> 
> But how the heck did you come up with that NAME??
> 
> LUV the L&W makings, very "cockery looking". Looks alot like Ernie's Rocky who was National Champion.
> 
> What's that pedigree behind him again?
> 
> NB


 
Yes he does look a lot like Rocky, also our first fbecs Roan. After a few days here if a 9 week old pup has any tendencies that will continue to latter life he is fearless, bold, active, and seems to never tire. We've been working on the fun recall that he is doing very well at, doing a couple fun retrieves every day, taking walks in various covers including thick reed canary grass, and having him jump up on the training "place boards". He even flushed a hen pheasant in my garden a couple days ago and loved the smells from her. The Pepper-Scottie pedigree is the attachment at the bottom.

Here is a pic of Roan latter in his life.


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
Very nice pics Mike! I like the looks of Finn.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Very nice pics Mike! I like the looks of Finn.


Thanks Steve, I like your crew too. Are you going to trial that new pup? 

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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Thanks Steve, I like your crew too. Are you going to trial that new pup?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks Mike. You never know...I could see doing a trial or 2 a year. Spaniel trials are the best venue out there for testing a hunting dogs ability. Good luck with your pup.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> We've been working on the fun recall that he is doing very well at, doing a couple fun retrieves every day, taking walks in various covers including thick reed canary grass, and having him jump up on the training "place boards". He even flushed a hen pheasant in my garden a couple days ago and loved the smells from her. The Pepper-Scottie pedigree is the attachment at the bottom.


Fallen Wings has put together a "cant miss" breeding there, Steve. They did real well at the Nationals this year too. I really like the double cross of Mallowdale Rackatear/Druid, plus the best of Hawthorne, the Packbrake blood, etc etc. Lots of English blood close up.

NB gives it a "Five Star" pedigree rating.  

Great stuff with "puppy walks" in light cover too. 

NB


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Thanks Mike. You never know...I could see doing a* trial or 2 a year. Spaniel trials are the best venue out there for testing a hunting dogs ability.* Good luck with your pup.


Dauber,you have that right, it even beats filling the bag... It allows for someone and their dog to meet or surpass community standards.
If you study your dogs pedigree it will either be filled with dogs that comform to a standard of performance, above beyond the ordinary.
Sure there may be dogs that were marginal and thru some form of human weakness were allow to continue on and eventual title and then be BRED, but when there are 32 or 64 dogs in the "family" the real deal or as they say the creme rises to the top. 
Train until you can't stand it any more find out what your dog is really made of, train until you can I.D 5 strengths and 5 weaknesses..trust if you push the envelope you will find them..If you do this .you'll always have a better time in the welping box


----------



## Steelheadfred

dauber said:


> Thanks Mike. You never know...I could see doing a trial or 2 a year. Spaniel trials are the best venue out there for testing a hunting dogs ability. Good luck with your pup.


Steve, I've attended a cocker trial, it was a good realistic hunting situation. Have you been to Gladwin to witness a cover dog event?

Cute Pup.

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## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Fallen Wings has put together a "cant miss" breeding there, Steve. They did real well at the Nationals this year too. I really like the double cross of Mallowdale Rackatear/Druid, plus the best of Hawthorne, the Packbrake blood, etc etc. Lots of English blood close up.
> 
> NB gives it a "Five Star" pedigree rating.
> 
> Great stuff with "puppy walks" in light cover too.
> 
> NB


Thanks NB! 

We were looking for a strong british blood for this one. Smoke is a very "US" bred dog, rather large and bigger running. For our team we are hoping for a tighter running little feller this time, and I love the Rackatear/Druid blood.


----------



## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> Steve, I've attended a cocker trial, it was a good realistic hunting situation. Have you been to Gladwin to witness a cover dog event?
> 
> Cute Pup.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yes I have been to a cover dog event at Gladwin. I certainly wouldn't consider myself some sort of expert on them though. Real nice work for pointing dogs that are trying to prove they can locate and "hold" grouse. The one I was at not many birds were found, but again it was one event and I am no expert on them. I don't remember any birds shot or any retrieving though.

Trying to compare that to spaniel trials is sort of like comparing apples and pickup trucks. Flushing grouse and pointing grouse take totally different skill sets. In spaniel trials the birds need to be produced in shooting range, shot and retrieved. Exactly what is asked for of spaniels while hunting. Personally I love shooting birds over my dog, be them training birds like pigeons, chukar, pheasants, or wild ones like woodcock, snipe, grouse, huns, roosters, sharpies, snowshoe hare and even ducks. 

Thanks for the compliment of Zac.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Yes I have been to a cover dog event at Gladwin. I certainly wouldn't consider myself some sort of expert on them though. Real nice work for pointing dogs that are trying to prove they can locate and "hold" grouse. The one I was at not many birds were found, but again it was one event and I am no expert on them. I don't remember any birds shot or any retrieving though.
> 
> Trying to compare that to spaniel trials is sort of like comparing apples and pickup trucks. Flushing grouse and pointing grouse take totally different skill sets. In spaniel trials the birds need to be produced in shooting range, shot and retrieved. Exactly what is asked for of spaniels while hunting. Personally I love shooting birds over my dog, be them training birds like pigeons, chukar, pheasants, or wild ones like woodcock, snipe, grouse, huns, roosters, sharpies, snowshoe hare and even ducks.
> 
> +1000
> Right-on! Right-On! Right-On! In 95 when I made an investigative trip to hallow grounds of Gladwin.. What a let down, sorry, a few dogs seen pointing a few blanks fire and no retrieving, in fact the thought of killing birds during a trial was almost repugnant to those in attendance. Comparing Bird dog trials to Spaniel trials cannot be done. Pointing dog folks know it, Spaniel folks know it. I think the CDR folks need to understand that as well. You'll seemed to have dogs you just need a venue....


----------



## Steelheadfred

I was not not knocking Spaniel Trials, just asking a question, I've been around the Gladwin Courses on the back of a horse a few times and saw heard 80 grouse in one day. They are wild birds, so RMV.

On our way home from SoDak, the video should be epic. Great times. 

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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> I was not not knocking Spaniel Trials, just asking a question, I've been around the Gladwin Courses on the* back of a horse a few times and saw heard 80 grouse in one day. They are wild birds,* so RMV.
> 
> On our way home from SoDak, the video should be epic. Great times.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


HORSES what the heck do HORSES have to do with Spaniel trials or flushing dogs...The Cocker Trial you went to, were the judges and gun team on horses?? If so somebody pulled the wool over your eyes if they told you were watching a Cocker Spaniel field trial..


----------



## Steelheadfred

When I judge, I'd rather be on horse back for any trial not just a CD venue, better able to view birds pointed and or flushed right off the nest.

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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> When I judge, I'd rather be on horse back for any trial not just a CD venue, better able to view birds pointed and or flushed right off the nest.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I'm not sure why I am going to bite again since this disscusion is a waste of time from someone just trying to stir things up.

This is the *Spaniel Corner, *we go on the Cover dog forum for info on that venue. We even sometimes read threads on MS about cover dog trials. It is a totally different game just as what is asked of their dogs is very much different. That is a game that has been around a long time, I am sure has standards that have improved the breeds that it is aimed at. I even can understand being on a horse for cover dog games. Spaniel trials have been run for well over a century and have improved the various spaniels breed both here and abroad as well. They are well established and have worked well for decades. Even poor field trial dogs make great hunting dogs. You don't need to be on a horse to judge a spaniel trial, the dogs you need a horse for are gone in the first series:lol:.


----------



## sgc

Do the Spaniels you need a horse for make good cover dogs? I think I have a cover dog Cocker :yikes:


----------



## Steelheadfred

dauber said:


> Even poor field trial dogs make great hunting dogs.



Want to elaborate, even keep it in the Spaniel nomenclature of this thread to keep it pure and all you desire without us interlopers setting the hook to hard.


----------



## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> Want to elaborate, even keep it in the Spaniel nomenclature of this thread to keep it pure and all you desire without us interlopers setting the hook to hard.


Easy. My Dante dog. He ran trials for 2 years with Ernie handling and never made a 3rd series. Ask Mac what he thought of him.


----------



## dauber

sgc said:


> Do the Spaniels you need a horse for make good cover dogs? I think I have a cover dog Cocker :yikes:


A few well timed whistle commands kept Jack nice and close last month!


----------



## N M Mechanical

I hear the spaniel on your south dakota trip was top dog! Fritz
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> I hear the spaniel on your south dakota trip was top dog! Fritz
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great dog as it should be, I'd own it like I would own Tango, Bess, or Kenny.

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## Steelheadfred

dauber said:


> Easy. My Dante dog. He ran trials for 2 years with Ernie handling and never made a 3rd series. Ask Mac what he thought of him.


You made my point for me Steve, which was the criteria for a hunting dog is not the same as a winning Trial dog. Hunting dogs don't have to meet hundreds of years of trial standards to be great hunting dog.

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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> You made my point for me Steve, which was the criteria for a hunting dog is not the same as a winning Trial dog. Hunting dogs don't have to meet hundreds of years of trial standards to be great hunting dog.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


My points; there are no standards for a great hunting dog but what the person behind the whistle thinks. Another point is that spaniel trial winners and placers make even better hunting dogs and they have lived up to the standards. It is those standards that have made it possible for there to be as many good spaniels around as there is.

One of my college coaches had a saying on his wall; " shoot for the moon and ya might end up on top of the outhouse. Shoot for the top of the outhouse and ya might end up in the hole!" That's why I look for the the best breeding I can even with my trial washouts. I've never hit the moon but have had quite a few that ended up on top of the outhouse. We are taking one more shot now with Zac, we'll see how high we get.


----------



## gundogguy

November 25th begins the National Springer Spaniel Championship
120 of the best trained best bred best handled pheasant dogs in North America This will take place near and around Pinckneyville Ill.
5 Series and water on pheasants. Can Paul McGagh repeat?

http://www.essft.com/2012noc/home.html


----------



## Steelheadfred

Just spent a week with a wicked good Springer, he would never win a field trial because of his build and color, but boy could he produce wild birds, to the tune of thousands a season. What a pleasure that dog was.

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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> November 25th begins the National Springer Spaniel Championship
> 120 of the best trained best bred best handled pheasant dogs in North America This will take place near and around Pinckneyville Ill.
> 5 Series and water on pheasants. Can Paul McGagh repeat?
> 
> http://www.essft.com/2012noc/home.html


He's running 10 dogs! That would be somehting though to win this last year, the cocker nationals this year and if he wins the springer open again, oh boy! 

I don't see any of my fav's like Bob Samson? It will be tough to make it thru 5 here.


----------



## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Just spent a week with a wicked good Springer, he would never win a field trial because of his build and color, but boy could he produce wild birds, to the tune of thousands a season. What a pleasure that dog was.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Fritz, do you have pics of the springer? Why do say it wouldn't win a trial based on the color? I have a couple nice springers like that too, great all around bird dogs, but will never win trials. They make make it to a 2nd or 3rd series, but that's all I can hope for. Keep in mind at a spaniel trial your running with dogs that may already be NAFC, AFC, FC titled dogs and several others that have been to the nationals year after year. Lots of training and $$ goes into these dogs to get to that level. So after your great time with the springer and your time spent with that cocker this fall are you going to get spaniel? 

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## BIGSP

Steelheadfred said:


> Just spent a week with a wicked good Springer, he would never win a field trial because of his build and color, but boy could he produce wild birds, to the tune of thousands a season. What a pleasure that dog was.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


That springer was awesome. Nice blocky head, easy to handle and that dog could go all day.


----------



## JAM

Very interesting, Hal. Thanks for the info.


----------



## JAM

Here's one more comment from my ECS owner/friend.

_"I have not seen or heard of anybody not docking. that would be crazy. Ive had dogs with dead tail from injuries. ewwww no fun."_

Makes sense!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Here's one more comment from my ECS owner/friend.
> 
> _"I have not seen or heard of anybody not docking. that would be crazy. Ive had dogs with dead tail from injuries. ewwww no fun."_
> 
> Makes sense!


  AWS's don't dock tails and boy what a mess


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## dauber

Then Smoke comeback:lol:


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Then Smoke comeback:lol:


Looks like lots of fun! Lots to be thankful for on Zac's 1st Thanksgiving.


----------



## michgundog

I believe in the UK its still legal, since they consider spaniels as working dogs. I think they leave the dew claws on though. But please don't quote me. 

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## dauber

JAM said:


> Looks like lots of fun! Lots to be thankful for on Zac's 1st Thanksgiving.


YES!! Lots to be thankful for with me. I am thankful every day I get to do the things I do. Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## dauber

to all the spaniel fanciers!! We have much to be thankful for. Now eat


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> to all the spaniel fanciers!! We have much to be thankful for. Now eat


+1 to That!


Zeta wishing Zac, Jack & Jill, and Michgundog's new puppie a happy 1st Thanksgiving. Hoping you pups got to run where the wild things go!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> to all the spaniel fanciers!! We have much to be thankful for. Now eat


Right back attcha, Steve and Karen.

Sterile surgical gloves are ready here for a carving operation ~ 2PM on Big Bird!

My brother and SIL are coming over armed with pies and homebaked bread.

Gotta LUV the antics of lil Zak, attacking Smokey like that.:yikes: Reminds of when we had our two pups in the house at the same time. Mayhem 24/7!!

"Cockers are Characters" and never more so than when they are lil' pups.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE.!!

NB


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> +1 to That!
> 
> 
> Zeta wishing Zac, Jack & Jill, and Michgundog's new puppie a happy 1st Thanksgiving. Hoping you pups got to run where the wild things go!


Nice pictures Hal. I hope everyone had a good turkey, pheasant, grouse &
venison day. 

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## Jeffrey Towler

gundogguy said:


> +1 to That!
> 
> 
> Zeta wishing Zac, Jack & Jill, and Michgundog's new puppie a happy 1st Thanksgiving. Hoping you pups got to run where the wild things go!


 Thank you Hal. These pups are sure bringing a little joy to my life right now.Mom had a H. A. last weekend. I thank the Lord it was mild. Life is very short, These pups are keeping my spirits up.

Regards
JT


----------



## michgundog

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Thank you Hal. These pups are sure bringing a little joy to my life right now.Mom had a H. A. last weekend. I thank the Lord it was mild. Life is very short, These pups are keeping my spirits up.
> 
> Regards
> JT


Jeff, sorry to hear about your Mother. Please tell her that we'll keep her in our thoughts and prayers!! Your Mom is a true sweetheart I hope she gets well soon.

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## Jeffrey Towler

Thanksgiving Morning run, Mom's in the truck watching pups.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

michgundog said:


> Jeff, sorry to hear about your Mother. Please tell her that we'll keep her in our thoughts and prayers!! Your Mom is a true sweetheart I hope she gets well soon.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thank you Mike


----------



## dauber

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Thank you Hal. These pups are sure bringing a little joy to my life right now.Mom had a H. A. last weekend. I thank the Lord it was mild. Life is very short, These pups are keeping my spirits up.
> 
> Regards
> JT


Your mom is in our thoughts and prayers too Jeffrey.


----------



## JAM

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Thanksgiving Morning run, Mom's in the truck watching pups.


Gosh these pics and videos give me spaniel puppy envy! Very nice!

J.T., Sorry to hear about your mom's H.A. Hope she has a quick recovery.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> J.T., Sorry to hear about your mom's H.A. Hope she has a quick recovery.


1+

Thoughts and Prayers go out for your Mom's quick and complete recovery.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> 1+
> 
> Thoughts and Prayers go out for your Mom's quick and complete recovery.
> 
> NB


Jeff sorry to hear about your Mom's setback, with today's meds and expertise I 'm sure she make a full recovery.. May she be blessed as you are!


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and prayers. Mom seems to be doing ok. I think she got a cold while she was at hospital. 

I read these this afternoon while I was sitting in my deer blind. It made me feel good that people still care about each other, thankyou.

JT


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> November 25th begins the National Springer Spaniel Championship
> 120 of the best trained best bred best handled pheasant dogs in North America This will take place near and around Pinckneyville Ill.
> 5 Series and water on pheasants. Can Paul McGagh repeat?
> 
> http://www.essft.com/2012noc/home.html





http://www.essft.com/2012noc/callbacks.html

NOC begins today in Illinois, Mcgagh, Wallace, and Willis have 22 dogs between them. 120 dogs in the fray with 1 scratch at this time.
M. Wallace is currently running the High point dog or Spaniel GDOY Kellie
Granddaughter of his GDOY Zorro 2002.
Weather conditions are perfect for this prime time event clear 30-40 degrees and sound winds out of the north.
The 5 day grind begins today..


----------



## The Doob

Well, this guy won't be participating in the championships, however, he did reach a "first" on Friday - his introductory trip duck hunting. I have held off doing this with Sully as I mainly focused on the upland part of things, plus the fact that the "norm" for us duck hunting is with a party of three to four guys out of an open water blind.

Friday, we did something that I hadn't done in thirty years - we went to a managed game area. It was just my son and I and we were fortunate enough to draw an area with a water hole surrounded by cattails. It also had the advantage of having a nice little blind.

I was a little concerned about the conditions, i.e. wind at 30 knots, wind chill at 20 degrees and the water temp of 39. It was a lot to ask of an 11 month old dog on his first duck trip but he braved the elements just fine. And, this was an area where a good dog is absolutely essential to finding downed game.

It would be great to report that he did blind retrieves of hundreds of yards and that he was a "crackerjack" duck dog. That was not the case. But he did locate the hen mallard in the picture below after she had dug her way into the cattails behind the blind- a bird we most certainly would have lost. He also saved us a long chase on one of the drakes as it tried to swim away, intermittently diving in the knee deep water.
http://www.**************/albums/Dale-Stevenson/DSC03077.jpg

There is still a lot of work to do with Sully but his initial foray into watefowling was a success. This was our last duck adventure of the year so it will be back to upland game come December 1st.

After a year with woodcock, grouse, pheasant, ducks and geese, he is well on his way to being a "rough" shooting dog.


----------



## michgundog

Sully is having one heck of a shooting season. I'm sure it will continue into December with some more roosters. 

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## Jeffrey Towler

Nice Job Doob. Springers make great waterfowl dogs.,

Regards
JT


----------



## Steelheadfred

Yes Doob, the smile says it all, congrats.

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## JAM

Sully's a fine example of how versatile a springer can be. Nice job! Nice pic, too!


----------



## dauber

Nice Job Doob! You are bringing Sully along real well!! Thanks for the pics and story.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> http://www.essft.com/2012noc/callbacks.html
> 
> NOC begins today in Illinois, Mcgagh, Wallace, and Willis have 22 dogs between them. 120 dogs in the fray with 1 scratch at this time.
> M. Wallace is currently running the High point dog or Spaniel GDOY Kellie
> Granddaughter of his GDOY Zorro 2002.
> Weather conditions are perfect for this prime time event clear 30-40 degrees and sound winds out of the north.
> The 5 day grind begins today..


This will be fun to follow again this year! This is the Super Bowl!!

Looked at the new Gundog magazine and there were a couple of ESS articles, and a sad one on Rascal the fbecs.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Good Job with Sully in his first season, Doob. Congrats.

Some good initial training and then plenty of exposure to game and let his breeding take over. Great pic in the blind. He's a credit to his breed already.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

The Doob said:


> Well, this guy won't be participating in the championships, however, he did reach a "first" on Friday - his introductory trip duck hunting. I have held off doing this with Sully as I mainly focused on the upland part of things, plus the fact that the "norm" for us duck hunting is with a party of three to four guys out of an open water blind.
> 
> Friday, we did something that I hadn't done in thirty years - we went to a managed game area. It was just my son and I and we were fortunate enough to draw an area with a water hole surrounded by cattails. It also had the advantage of having a nice little blind.
> 
> I was a little concerned about the conditions, i.e. wind at 30 knots, wind chill at 20 degrees and the water temp of 39. It was a lot to ask of an 11 month old dog on his first duck trip but he braved the elements just fine. And, this was an area where a good dog is absolutely essential to finding downed game.
> 
> *It would be great to report that he did blind retrieves of hundreds of yards and that he was a "crackerjack" duck dog. That was not the case.* But he did locate the hen mallard in the picture below after she had dug her way into the cattails behind the blind- a bird we most certainly would have lost. He also saved us a long chase on one of the drakes as it tried to swim away, intermittently diving in the knee deep water.
> http://www.**************/albums/Dale-Stevenson/DSC03077.jpg
> 
> There is still a lot of work to do with Sully but his initial foray into watefowling was a success. This was our last duck adventure of the year so it will be back to upland game come December 1st.
> 
> After a year with woodcock, grouse, pheasant, ducks and geese, he is well on his way to being a "rough" shooting dog.



Great story of Sully's first duck hunt. Great adventure in a pups life.
Not to worry about those "big blinds' most retriever types have not settled in to those until they are 2-3years of age. Maugh's Blake is fairly reliable out to 300yds with simple factors and he is 3 1/2.. so I think there is time for Sully
Maybe some of the retriever guys can explain the process. I know JYDOG on this forum just completed the HRC Grand I doubt that he had an 11 month old pup in that deal. Have fun it looks like your doing that!!
Thanks for sharing!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Great story of Sully's first duck hunt. Great adventure in a pups life.
> Not to worry about those "big blinds' most retriever types have not settled in to those until they are 2-3years of age. Maugh's Blake is fairly reliable out to 300yds with simple factors and he is 3 1/2.. so I think there is time for Sully
> Maybe some of the retriever guys can explain the process. I know JYDOG on this forum just completed the HRC Grand I doubt that he had an 11 month old pup in that deal. Have fun it looks like your doing that!!
> Thanks for sharing!


Sully has done a lot since this picture was taken less than a year ago. Great looking pup!! 

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## michgundog

Here's a great picture of Finn taken today at the RGS GDOY. Quite the mix bag.

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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Here's a great picture of Finn taken today at the RGS GDOY. Quite the mix bag.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Looks like a springer bag! Nice job Finn and Mike!


----------



## Steelheadfred

Congrats to Finn and Annie today, nice work guys.

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## gundogguy

43 braces running on a parallel courses They will finish the 1st today, then on to the 2nd. 
Amazing number of dogs to run day 1 a true testament to the Spaniel system and to the efficiency's of the dogs them selves.
Finding flushing marking and retrieving 2 pheasants apiece.
The trial will resume today at 8:00am and press on til 4:30. The Springer spaniel breed, Next years genetics at work today.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

michgundog said:


> Here's a great picture of Finn taken today at the RGS GDOY. Quite the mix bag.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Very Nice! Finn is a hunter.

Regards
JT


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> Here's a great picture of Finn taken today at the RGS GDOY. Quite the mix bag.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Nice job, Finn! One of each... Very cool!


----------



## Gavan

bird hunt. Dogs and the guy that feeds them had a blast! Bagged our first sharptails and a few bad-assed Montana roosters. The Glendive gets an average of 28 inches of snow annually and got half that 4 days before we arrived so the cover was flat in a lot of places. Each day the snow melted it got a little better but we were resigned to hunting coulees, creek bottms and sloughs. Lots of birds but needed full choke for most of the shooting. Phenominal country with great people and I can't wait to go back. Going to try to post a photo of Gracie and Gavan my Sunrise springers.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

Gavan said:


> bird hunt. Dogs and the guy that feeds them had a blast! Bagged our first sharptails and a few bad-assed Montana roosters. The Glendive gets an average of 28 inches of snow annually and got half that 4 days before we arrived so the cover was flat in a lot of places. Each day the snow melted it got a little better but we were resigned to hunting coulees, creek bottms and sloughs. Lots of birds but needed full choke for most of the shooting. Phenominal country with great people and I can't wait to go back. Going to try to post a photo of Gracie and Gavan my Sunrise springers.


 Very Nice. Looks like a couple of great dogs.

Regards
JT


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> bird hunt. Dogs and the guy that feeds them had a blast! Bagged our first sharptails and a few bad-assed Montana roosters. The Glendive gets an average of 28 inches of snow annually and got half that 4 days before we arrived so the cover was flat in a lot of places. Each day the snow melted it got a little better but we were resigned to hunting coulees, creek bottms and sloughs. Lots of birds but needed full choke for most of the shooting. Phenominal country with great people and I can't wait to go back. Going to try to post a photo of Gracie and Gavan my Sunrise springers.


Gavan, Nice to hear from you. Glad your still taking nourishment..Dogs look fit as well.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> bird hunt. Dogs and the guy that feeds them had a blast! Bagged our first sharptails and a few bad-assed Montana roosters. The Glendive gets an average of 28 inches of snow annually and got half that 4 days before we arrived so the cover was flat in a lot of places. Each day the snow melted it got a little better but we were resigned to hunting coulees, creek bottms and sloughs. Lots of birds but needed full choke for most of the shooting. Phenominal country with great people and I can't wait to go back. Going to try to post a photo of Gracie and Gavan my Sunrise springers.


Excellent report Gavan! Nice pictures!


----------



## Gavan

with an above average mule deer from Montana. He "hunted" about two hours before shooting this deer. "Hunted" is in parentheses because they drive around and glass for deer and then get out of the truck and stalk them. Or in some cases they shoot them out of the truck window, kind of like some of the yoopers do with grouse.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Gavan said:


> bird hunt. Dogs and the guy that feeds them had a blast! Bagged our first sharptails and a few bad-assed Montana roosters. The Glendive gets an average of 28 inches of snow annually and got half that 4 days before we arrived so the cover was flat in a lot of places. Each day the snow melted it got a little better but we were resigned to hunting coulees, creek bottms and sloughs. Lots of birds but needed full choke for most of the shooting. Phenominal country with great people and I can't wait to go back. Going to try to post a photo of Gracie and Gavan my Sunrise springers.


Excellent report, Gavan. Weather Out West this time of year gets kinda "iffy", as you found out. Other spaniel guys made trips earlier to South Dakota, and you'll find them a few pages back, in case you missed them.

Nice pics of you and your feather fetcher spaniels. And yr buddy shot a nice high "three point" mulie, which is the lingo used by the natives out there. NICE DEER  The peak of the mule deer rut is usually right when you guys went out.

Thanks for the trip report!!

NB


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Excellent report, Gavan. Weather Out West this time of year gets kinda "iffy", as you found out. Other spaniel guys made trips earlier to South Dakota, and you'll find them a few pages back, in case you missed them.
> 
> Nice pics of you and your feather fetcher spaniels. And yr buddy shot a nice high "three point" mulie, which is the lingo used by the natives out there. NICE DEER  The peak of the mule deer rut is usually right when you guys went out.
> 
> Thanks for the trip report!!
> 
> NB


Ditto!


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> I believe in the UK its still legal, since they consider spaniels as working dogs. I think they leave the dew claws on though. But please don't quote me.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I asked an Internet contact that lives in the UK and is a lab/springer guy about the laws about tail docking there. Here's what he wrote:

Hello Jill,

The law (in brief) states that no dog can be docked at all in Scotland. 

In England the following can be docked: Hunt point retrieve breeds of any type, Spaniels and terriers of any type. 

In Wales the following can be docked: English Springer Spaniel, Welsh Springer Spaniel and Cocker Spaniel, but not combinations of breeds. Also Braque Italian, Brittany, German Long Haired Pointer, German Short Haired Pointer, German Wire Haired Pointer, Hungarian Vizsla, Hungarian Wire Haired Vizsla, Italian Spinone, Spanish Water Dog, Weimaraner, Korthals Griffon, Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer, Large Munsterlander, Small Munsterlander. Plus Jack Russell Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Lakeland Terrier, Norfolk Terrier, but not combinations of breeds.

It remains the prerogative of a veterinary surgeon as to whether he chooses to dock a dogs tail or not.

So the reality is that in England and Wales you can get a dog lawfully docked by a Vet. should you wish to do so. In Scotland you either ignore the law and do it yourself, or slip over the border. 

All very unsatisfactory and stupid, but there you are.

Eug


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Looks like a springer bag! Nice job Finn and Mike!


Thanks Steve! 

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## dauber

Thanks JAM! That is going to the source!


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## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Congrats to Finn and Annie today, nice work guys.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Fritz congratulations to you and May!! 

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## michgundog

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Very Nice! Finn is a hunter.
> 
> Regards
> JT


Thanks Jeff, hopefully you will come out to the RGS trials next year. All a good group of people and hunters. 

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## michgundog

JAM said:


> Nice job, Finn! One of each... Very cool!


Thank you Jill. He showed the true versatility of the breed with the dead rabbit retrieve. That rabbit or pheasant were not targeted at the trial. 

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## michgundog

Gavan said:


> bird hunt. Dogs and the guy that feeds them had a blast! Bagged our first sharptails and a few bad-assed Montana roosters. The Glendive gets an average of 28 inches of snow annually and got half that 4 days before we arrived so the cover was flat in a lot of places. Each day the snow melted it got a little better but we were resigned to hunting coulees, creek bottms and sloughs. Lots of birds but needed full choke for most of the shooting. Phenominal country with great people and I can't wait to go back. Going to try to post a photo of Gracie and Gavan my Sunrise springers.



Thanks Gavan for sharong your pictures(good looking Spaniels). My cousin went to Montana pheasant hunting a few years back and had a good time as well. 

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## dauber

http://www.essft.com/2012noc/callbacks.html

102 back for the second. I'll study it later tonight.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> http://www.essft.com/2012noc/callbacks.html
> 
> 102 back for the second. I'll study it later tonight.


Photos NOC 2012 day 1

http://www.essft.com/2012noc/photos/Monday/0001/page1.html


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Photos NOC 2012 day 1
> 
> http://www.essft.com/2012noc/photos/Monday/0001/page1.html


Nice pics from day 1.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Finn and Annie from Sunday


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## Rysalka

Just wanted say really impressed with this forum on Spaniels.
Learning alot about spaniels, training, Etc. But what really setsmit above the other dog posts, questions, Etc. is that there is no really negative stuff about lines, tails, ears....size, markings, breed lines, like the other breeds.

Looks to me like we are one happy family and own the best breed available as a hunter, compainion and just an all around great dog.

Keep up the great posts.

Bob and Punk (ESS)


----------



## Jim58

Steelheadfred said:


> Finn and Annie from Sunday


Great job flushing dogs!!
Nice to see a sweep by michigan Sportsman members. :woohoo1:
Thanks for posting Fritz.


----------



## gundogguy

Rysalka said:


> Just wanted say really impressed with this forum on Spaniels.
> Learning alot about spaniels, training, Etc. But what really setsmit above the other dog posts, questions, Etc. is that there is no really negative stuff about lines, tails, ears....size, markings, breed lines, like the other breeds.
> 
> Looks to me like we are one happy family and own the* best breed available as a hunter, compainion and just an all around great dog.*
> 
> Keep up the great posts.
> 
> Bob and Punk (ESS)


Bob and Punk nice to hear from you!!
It is not so much about being a happy family as it is a group of folks that are in tuned to what what their dogs are capable of doing,and that is just what you said, *best breed available as a hunter, compainion and just an all around great dog.
*It is that commonality among Spaniel devotees whether they be Springer or Cocker or which ever of the other varieties of spaniel, they are dogs that love to work for their masters. It is the degree of biddabilty that sets the spaniel apart from the other breeds.
It is well noted that we as a culture are not divided by one group being a flushing dog the other being a pointing dog and the third being a retriever. The spaniel is a working dog...period. and as a variety loves to work and interact with it's master..we mere mortals.
Our traditions go back 500 yrs or more judging of Spaniel work for fun or trial has been based on the same concepts for longer than any one who is alive today. And will continue to be judge that way longer than any of us have time left here on this earth.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and insights Bob and Punk! Have fun!!

In the coming weeks we will have a rousing discussion on development of the quarterinig pattern and exercises to develop a stronger marking abilitys in the upland dog


----------



## dauber

Rysalka said:


> Just wanted say really impressed with this forum on Spaniels.
> Learning alot about spaniels, training, Etc. But what really setsmit above the other dog posts, questions, Etc. is that there is no really negative stuff about lines, tails, ears....size, markings, breed lines, like the other breeds.
> 
> Looks to me like we are one happy family and own the best breed available as a hunter, compainion and just an all around great dog.
> 
> Keep up the great posts.
> 
> Bob and Punk (ESS)


Good to hear from you Bob. Give Punk a treat and a pat on the head from us!

How can we not be happy owning the happiest of hunting dogs Hal says it well, we are pretty much all in line to what our dogs work is.

Keep them new knees a bending!!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> In the coming weeks we will have a rousing discussion on development of the quarterinig pattern and exercises to develop a stronger marking abilitys in the upland dog


Can't wait! Quartering is one of the most important duties of a spaniel helping them with thoroughly finding game and producing it in shooting range. 

This will give me something interesting and useful to do while rehabbing my failing shoulders the next few months too. 

This is what's so great about the "Sapniel Corner". It is a place where us spaniel lovers can help each other improve, rather than see how high we can pee on a tree.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Can't wait! Quartering is one of the most important duties of a spaniel helping them with thoroughly finding game and producing it in shooting range.
> 
> This will give me something interesting and useful to do while rehabbing my failing shoulders the next few months too.
> 
> This is what's so great about the "Sapniel Corner". It is a place where us spaniel lovers can help each other improve, rather than see how high we can pee on a tree.


Yes, a spaniel that stays in shooting range and quarters properly will put lots of birds in the bag. My new pup already has the instinct to quarter. When I take him to the field I walk in a zig zag pattern to reinforce it.

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## dauber

http://www.essft.com/2012noc/callbacks.html 

There will be a new champion this year as Judy didn't make the 3rd. What a tough road it is to make it thru the 5th!!


----------



## dauber

dauber said:


> http://www.essft.com/2012noc/callbacks.html
> 
> There will be a new champion this year as Judy didn't make the 3rd. What a tough road it is to make it thru the 5th!!


Russ Smith is done. Handler Paul McGagh is down to 4 dogs left. Mike Wallace's Cliff is still in and he has 3 moving on.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> http://www.essft.com/2012noc/callbacks.html
> 
> There will be a new champion this year as Judy didn't make the 3rd. What a tough road it is to make it thru the 5th!!


I've been following the NOC, too. Some of my favorites are already out.

I don't know if any of you know Mark Gebert and his dog, Pike, AKA "FC AFC Lighthouse Gone Fishing" and have already heard the terrible news. For those of you who haven't heard, this is from the Lighthouse Kennels:

I found out that my buddy Pike had died. Mark had no idea why, he felt a bit sick in the morning and was dead at
noon. Pike was 6 years old and had proven to be a top field trial
competitor. He had placed as recently as 2 weeks before and Mark was
very much looking forward to running him in the National starting this
Sunday. We were in shock. The autopsy results are just in and in a very
unusual way he is yet another dog to die of a seed. He had a very small
grass awn which perforated his heart sac and while there pierced some blood vessels which caused him to bleed to death. He had been to the vet
earlier in the week twice due to not feeling good as he had wrenched his
back. We had assumed this had something to do with that but as it turns
out it was unrelated. There was nothing Mark or his vets could have seen
that would have caught this, it was just amazingly bad luck that the awn
migrated to that place in his body. It was sort of a Steve Irwin type of
death, and like the Crocodile Hunter Pike lived his life with flair,
love, and an always happy attitude. We will miss him a lot. 


How very sad.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I've been following the NOC, too. Some of my favorites are already out.
> 
> I don't know if any of you know Mark Gebert and his dog, Pike, AKA "FC AFC Lighthouse Gone Fishing" and have already heard the terrible news. For those of you who haven't heard, this is from the Lighthouse Kennels:
> 
> I found out that my buddy Pike had died. Mark had no idea why, he felt a bit sick in the morning and was dead at
> noon. Pike was 6 years old and had proven to be a top field trial
> competitor. He had placed as recently as 2 weeks before and Mark was
> very much looking forward to running him in the National starting this
> Sunday. We were in shock. The autopsy results are just in and in a very
> unusual way he is yet another dog to die of a seed. He had a very small
> grass awn which perforated his heart sac and while there pierced some blood vessels which caused him to bleed to death. He had been to the vet
> earlier in the week twice due to not feeling good as he had wrenched his
> back. We had assumed this had something to do with that but as it turns
> out it was unrelated. There was nothing Mark or his vets could have seen
> that would have caught this, it was just amazingly bad luck that the awn
> migrated to that place in his body. It was sort of a Steve Irwin type of
> death, and like the Crocodile Hunter Pike lived his life with flair,
> love, and an always happy attitude. We will miss him a lot.
> 
> 
> How very sad.


 
Thanks for passing on JAM. Our thoughts are with Mark. That really sucks!


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Thanks for passing on JAM. Our thoughts are with Mark. That really sucks!


I found about Pike today too and it does really suck Steve. He was a really, really nice dog. Very calm, but turned on a switch as soon as he hit the field. Pike will be sadly missed by all us in the SMSSTC. 


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## gundogguy

I will quote a passage from one my favorite reads, this book was written some time ago in fact it is the very first book written in English on the subject of hunting. "The Master Of Game" by the Second duke of York
Edward of Norwich written 1407-1413. Just to give you some idea of the rich and storied traditions of favorite breeds of sporting dogs

From chapter XVII...Of Spaniels and their Nature

 A good spaniel should not be​ too rough, but his tail should be rough. The​ good qualities that such hounds have are these :​ they love well their masters and follow them​ without losing, although they be in a great crowd​ of men, and commonly they go before their​ master, running and wagging their tail, and raise​ or start fowl and wild beasts. But their right​ craft is of the partridge and of the quail. It is a​ good thing to a man that hath a noble goshawk​ or a tiercel or a sparrow hawk for partridge, to have such hounds.​ 
600 years ago they knew what a Spaniel was and they even knew how to train them, then as well..


May Pike cross that rainbow bridge to home with all the great ones!!


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

Jam

Thanks for posting about Pike. I worry all the time about these awns. We love are dogs so much, let alone all the time and money spent.
I know my Friend Dr. Wendy had to remove an Awn type material from one of her labs eyes.

I myself, had a 1 1/2 year old lab that I lost, still brings a tear to my eye thinking about her. Way to young to go.

JT


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> I've been following the NOC, too. Some of my favorites are already out.
> 
> I don't know if any of you know Mark Gebert and his dog, Pike, AKA "FC AFC Lighthouse Gone Fishing" and have already heard the terrible news. For those of you who haven't heard, this is from the Lighthouse Kennels:
> 
> I found out that my buddy Pike had died. Mark had no idea why, he felt a bit sick in the morning and was dead at
> noon. Pike was 6 years old and had proven to be a top field trial
> competitor. He had placed as recently as 2 weeks before and Mark was
> very much looking forward to running him in the National starting this
> Sunday. We were in shock. The autopsy results are just in and in a very
> unusual way he is yet another dog to die of a seed. He had a very small
> grass awn which perforated his heart sac and while there pierced some blood vessels which caused him to bleed to death. He had been to the vet
> earlier in the week twice due to not feeling good as he had wrenched his
> back. We had assumed this had something to do with that but as it turns
> out it was unrelated. There was nothing Mark or his vets could have seen
> that would have caught this, it was just amazingly bad luck that the awn
> migrated to that place in his body. It was sort of a Steve Irwin type of
> death, and like the Crocodile Hunter Pike lived his life with flair,
> love, and an always happy attitude. We will miss him a lot.
> 
> 
> How very sad.


Horrible News, Jill.

This "mean seeds" issue seem to have struck the FBESS FT community particularly hard. There have been many dogs affected and considerable mortality. This case (Pikes) would have been impossible to diagnose before his death. Even with suspicions and the most advanced diagnostics. 

I've heard that the plants which have the troublesome awns (foxtail and similar) are commonly planted on some FT grounds. Any truth to that??

Very, very sad indeed.

NB


----------



## Gavan

and it is still part of several of the Pheasants Forever seed mixes for warm season grasses. I have several friends who have had "seed" problems and some who have lost dogs. It is a terrible thing.


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Horrible News, Jill.
> 
> This "mean seeds" issue seem to have struck the FBESS FT community particularly hard. There have been many dogs affected and considerable mortality. This case (Pikes) would have been impossible to diagnose before his death. Even with suspicions and the most advanced diagnostics.
> 
> I've heard that the plants which have the troublesome awns (foxtail and similar) are commonly planted on some FT grounds. Any truth to that??
> 
> Very, very sad indeed.
> 
> NB


NB, The ESSFT.COM site has a link to a site dedicated to informing dog owners of the dangers of "mean seeds" and also where anyone who's had a problem with seeds can report it - http://www.meanseeds.com . I haven't heard about FT grounds having been planted with them, but since they have the "mean seed" link on their home page, there must be quite a bit of concern. As Gavan stated, I've also heard that PF uses Canadian rye in some of their seed mixes and that the ESS field trial community has made it quite clear that they oppose that practice. I don't know if it's done any good.

I know of 2 dogs that have had encounters with "mean seeds". An AWS was hunting in Canada and came home with a swollen ear that kept getting bigger. The vet removed a fox tail. Another ESS trialer's dog was getting sicker and sicker. They fortunately live near Madison, WI, and had access to the vet school there. A "mean seed" was found in the dog's lung. Fortunately, that dog fully recovered.

Losing a dog like that is just heart-breaking.

~Jill


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> NB, The ESSFT.COM site has a link to a site dedicated to informing dog owners of the dangers of "mean seeds" and also where anyone who's had a problem with seeds can report it - http://www.meanseeds.com . I haven't heard about FT grounds having been planted with them, but since they have the "mean seed" link on their home page, there must be quite a bit of concern. As Gavan stated, I've also heard that PF uses Canadian rye in some of their seed mixes and that the ESS field trial community has made it quite clear that they oppose that practice. I don't know if it's done any good.
> 
> I know of 2 dogs that have had encounters with "mean seeds". An AWS was hunting in Canada and came home with a swollen ear that kept getting bigger. The vet removed a fox tail. Another ESS trialer's dog was getting sicker and sicker. They fortunately live near Madison, WI, and had access to the vet school there. A "mean seed" was found in the dog's lung. Fortunately, that dog fully recovered.
> 
> Losing a dog like that is just heart-breaking.
> 
> ~Jill


I've heard that keeping a spaniels coat shaved can help prevent seed awns from penetrating the skin. Obviously, can't stop the inhalation of one though.

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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Russ Smith is done. Handler Paul McGagh is down to 4 dogs left. Mike Wallace's Cliff is still in and he has 3 moving on.


I'm pulling for Rosebay Clover. If I read the call backs correctly, her and Paul are still in. The other 2 Rosebay dogs are out, one was a scratch. 

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## dauber

michgundog said:


> I'm pulling for Rosebay Clover. If I read the call backs correctly, her and Paul are still in. The other 2 Rosebay dogs are out, one was a scratch.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


45 in the fourth series.
Yes Kizzy is still in the 4th with McGagh. I'm kindof pulling for Janet Christensen and "Hope". Karen really enjoyed shagging for Janet. I don't know many of the dogs, but have come crossed paths with many of the handlers over the years.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> 45 in the fourth series.
> Yes Kizzy is still in the 4th with McGagh. I'm kindof pulling for Janet Christensen and "Hope". Karen really enjoyed shagging for Janet. I don't know many of the dogs, but have come crossed paths with many of the handlers over the years.


 
Thanks for the update Steve.


----------



## JAM

14 back to the 5th series.

Hal's new pup's sire, Cliff is back. Holly (Jason G.), Tanner (Jeff Miller), Gary and Cindy Wilson have some back, Lucy (Ken Willis) that won the Tilden Valley trial this year, for a few.

Should know tomorrow!


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> 14 back to the 5th series.
> 
> Hal's new pup's sire, Cliff is back. Holly (Jason G.), Tanner (Jeff Miller), Gary and Cindy Wilson have some back, Lucy (Ken Willis) that won the Tilden Valley trial this year, for a few.
> 
> Should know tomorrow!



Good Job! Jam and Duaber for keeping the info flowing, this is the premiere Springer event of the year. Conditions and location has made it one the best possible Nationals.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> 14 back to the 5th series.
> 
> Hal's new pup's sire, Cliff is back. Holly (Jason G.), Tanner (Jeff Miller), Gary and Cindy Wilson have some back, Lucy (Ken Willis) that won the Tilden Valley trial this year, for a few.
> 
> Should know tomorrow!


Thanks JAM.

To my count 6 of the remaining dogs are not field champions...yet.


----------



## gundogguy

This just in the Fifth is history the remaining dogs are off to the Water series..


----------



## gundogguy

have Gary PM me 
Thanks I cannot remember his screen name


----------



## JAM

Tulsa_Bill said:


> Well I guess I'm not off to such a good start :sad:
> 
> I meant to type ESS. I know better.
> 
> The image is of Bella at about 6 months. She's about 16 months old now.
> 
> She didn't come from field lines and I would have preferred to have had her tail longer but the breeder already had her tail docked by their vet when they were doing the puppy shots. They were just a couple with two really nice Springers that had a litter. I didn't think her tail mattered much as she was really outgoing and looked great. I got her at 12 weeks.
> 
> Truthfully, it doesn't really matter if she turns out to be a good hunter or not - not a lot of pheasants on Oklahoma after several years of drought. She is a great dog, a lot of fun in the field, she minds real well and has a great disposition but a little sensitive. The only exercise I get is taking her for long walks in the woods a couple times a week. She could turn out to be a good rabbit dog - she's already flushed a bunch of rabbits during our hikes.
> 
> I'm going through the basics of training from several books I bought to see how she does. She already ranks as one of the best dogs I have ever owned.
> 
> If she doesn't work out for finding birds, I know she will do just fine on trout. She loves the water and going in the boat as much as the field. She gets really excited when I land a big ole black bass.
> 
> Thanks, I'll put some wings on her favorite bumper and see how that works. I also have several live birds as well. I give those a try next.


Very nice picture!

I wasn't trying to be critical of the length of Bella's tail. I was just making an observation. As far as the length of Bella's tail, it's the proper length if she's indeed a bench bred springer. 

If she's flushing rabbits, she's already exhibiting prey drive. And if she's retrieving bumpers, that's also a good thing - she retrieves. Those 2 things are a big plus! A lot of springers are "sensitive". I think that's also a good quality as you don't have to be harsh with corrections.

My oldest springer didn't see a bird until he was 2 yrs. old. He's almost 12 now and still has the best nose of all 3. Give her some time and keep up the training and I bet you'll have a bird dog.

We used to take our 3 springers in the canoe with us while we fished. It's a miracle we never went overboard when a fish was caught. I think the fish are as exciting as a big, 'ol rooster flushing. 

Glad you're enjoying your pup and hope you have good luck with your training.


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## Jeffrey Towler

Omega Farms Bird Fields. If you look close you can see bird tower in background, Jack&Jill foreground


----------



## gundogguy

Tulsa_Bill said:


> Well I guess I'm not off to such a good start :sad:
> 
> I meant to type ESS. I know better.
> 
> The image is of Bella at about 6 months. She's about 16 months old now.
> 
> She didn't come from field lines and I would have preferred to have had her tail longer but the breeder already had her tail docked by their vet when they were doing the puppy shots. They were just a couple with two really nice Springers that had a litter. I didn't think her tail mattered much as she was really outgoing and looked great. I got her at 12 weeks.
> 
> Truthfully, it doesn't really matter if she turns out to be a good hunter or not - not a lot of pheasants on Oklahoma after several years of drought. She is a great dog, a lot of fun in the field, she minds real well and has a great disposition but a little sensitive. The only exercise I get is taking her for long walks in the woods a couple times a week. She could turn out to be a good rabbit dog - she's already flushed a bunch of rabbits during our hikes.
> 
> I'm going through the basics of training from several books I bought to see how she does. She already ranks as one of the best dogs I have ever owned.
> 
> If she doesn't work out for finding birds, I know she will do just fine on trout. She loves the water and going in the boat as much as the field. She gets really excited when I land a big ole black bass.
> 
> Thanks, I'll put some wings on her favorite bumper and see how that works. I also have several live birds as well. I give those a try next.



Right fine Photo Bill..You may be aware that Oklahoma is great Springer country, the late great Barney Ziegler made National champion out L van Kirk's Briar dog that I started for him back in the mid 90's.
Barney was a treasure and I'm sure there are a number of his disciples out that way..
Bets of luck with your gal...nothing better than Spaniels and rabbits by the way..


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## Rysalka

Tulsa Bill........Nice looking pup/dog. I've hadma number of show type Springer in my day all except one were good to exceptional bird hunters not field trial worthy but filled the bill for a hunting dog.

The one that did not pan out was raised in the city and was not introduced to birds until three years old...she did well on rabbits but seem not to associate bird with prey.....so I would recommend getting her on some game farrm birds think she will figure out they are fun to flush....and she will carry the birdy thing out during your walks....


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## dauber

Nice pictures Tulsa Bill and a real nice looking girl ya got there. Some good advice above woth the wings then clips. Good one too figuring out right away that she is soft, that is one of the first things needed is to "read your dog". Have fun with her!!


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## Tulsa_Bill

I taped a couple of wings to the bumper tonight and tossed out for her. I took a while for her to figure it out and then she picked it up and brought it back. I threw it a few more times a little further each time and she seems to be getting the hang of it.

The rejection of the bird was confusing. She will always bring back anything you throw for her - bumpers, sticks, stuffed toys, etc. She even swims out into the lake to get bumpers. I'll post a video if I can figure out how to do it.

I couldn't figure out why she just ignored the bird. She tracked it up and found it Ok but then just walked away.

I think were are track now. She is a pretty smart dog and quick learner.

Thanks for the tip. I'll post some follow up reports on her progress


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## michgundog

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Omega Farms Bird Fields. If you look close you can see bird tower in background, Jack&Jill foreground


Jeff how old are the pups now? 

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## dauber

Tulsa_Bill said:


> I taped a couple of wings to the bumper tonight and tossed out for her. I took a while for her to figure it out and then she picked it up and brought it back. I threw it a few more times a little further each time and she seems to be getting the hang of it.
> 
> The rejection of the bird was confusing. She will always bring back anything you throw for her - bumpers, sticks, stuffed toys, etc. She even swims out into the lake to get bumpers. I'll post a video if I can figure out how to do it.
> 
> I couldn't figure out why she just ignored the bird. She tracked it up and found it Ok but then just walked away.
> 
> I think were are track now. She is a pretty smart dog and quick learner.
> 
> Thanks for the tip. I'll post some follow up reports on her progress


I've told the story before...but when ya only have a couple stories
Years and years ago when I had my first AWS at a hunt test gundogguy (Hal) was judging the first bird shot was a pheasant. Now my dog was about 3 yrs old at the time and had retrieved many ducks, some geese, many grouse and woodcock, but never a pheasant. I didn't think it would be any big deal. But when he ran up to the shot pheasant he just gave it a sniff and took off hunting. Next thing I know is I'm being slapped upside the head by the judge who says "how dumb can you be never giving that dog pheasant before running this test?" Moral of the story is you should introduce her to each kind of bird you will ask her to retrieve.

Look forward to the reports!


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## dauber

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Omega Farms Bird Fields. If you look close you can see bird tower in background, Jack&Jill foreground


This looks like a "head on". :yikes: Jack and Jill ok?


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Tulsa_Bill said:


> I taped a couple of wings to the bumper tonight and tossed out for her. I took a while for her to figure it out and then she picked it up and brought it back. I threw it a few more times a little further each time and she seems to be getting the hang of it.
> 
> The rejection of the bird was confusing. She will always bring back anything you throw for her - bumpers, sticks, stuffed toys, etc. She even swims out into the lake to get bumpers. I'll post a video if I can figure out how to do it.
> Thanks for the tip. I'll post some follow up reports on her progress


Thanks for the progress report, Bill. 

What you described above is not at all unusual in my experience with both my Britts and my Cockers. When "something new", anything really, is introduced to a young dog it might take a while for them to figure it out. Like when a young dog sees its first woodcock or pigeon, for example.

Sounds like she's making the connection now. Baby steps.

She's sure a pretty girl! Keep us posted.

NB


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## Jeffrey Towler

Hi Mike

Pups are 13 weeks today. I am having a blast with them.

How's your pup? PM me on facebook when you get a chance.

Regards
JT


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## michgundog

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> Pups are 13 weeks today. I am having a blast with them.
> 
> How's your pup? PM me on facebook when you get a chance.
> 
> Regards
> JT


They look big, I bet they're a lot of fun.

My pup is doing well, very smart. I'll PM you. 

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## dauber

Boy it's tough for me to get Zac pics, he is too fast for me to catch on camera. Here is one after he wore out the other 2. Zac is also about 12 weeks old now and I do believe he is one of the boldest pups we've had. I didn't think any would be bolder and tougher that a couple of the field trial bred chessies we had, but Zac is right up there. He has totally launched himself into Dante's face many times, and Dante doesn't take kindly. After a few screams he is right back for more. Maybe it says something about his inteligence, it does say he doesn't give up. He loves to dive into the thick grass and is retrieving bumpers, dokens (quail and chukar) and grouse wings attached to the bumpers. We are having lots of fun with he little fellar.


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## michgundog

Very nice Steve!! Glad to hear the pup is coming along well.

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## Jeffrey Towler

dauber said:


> Boy it's tough for me to get Zac pics, he is too fast for me to catch on camera. Here is one after he wore out the other 2. Zac is also about 12 weeks old now and I do believe he is one of the boldest pups we've had. I didn't think any would be bolder and tougher that a couple of the field trial bred chessies we had, but Zac is right up there. He has totally launched himself into Dante's face many times, and Dante doesn't take kindly. After a few screams he is right back for more. Maybe it says something about his inteligence, it does say he doesn't give up. He loves to dive into the thick grass and is retrieving bumpers, dokens (quail and chukar) and grouse wings attached to the bumpers. We are having lots of fun with he little fellar.


Nice looking group. Pup looks raring to go.


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## Jim58

My wife loved that picture Steve. She fell in love with one that looked like your pup at the trial in Three Rivers.

Jim


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## sgc

Very nice looking pup Steve. He looks like he's grown a bit already.


----------



## michgundog

sgc said:


> Very nice looking pup Steve. He looks like he's grown a bit already.


Stan your due for a new pup

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## NATTY BUMPO

LUVED that pic, Steve. Nothing better than a big lounge chair full of Cockers.

My dogs aren't allowed up on the furniture, but that doesn't keep them from trying to get up there, day after day, and year after year.

Zak sounds like a ball of fire and I gotta luv that spirit in my hunting dogs.
You can tone it down later, but cant put it into a birddog. Good stuff.

NB


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> LUVED that pic, Steve. Nothing better than a big lounge chair full of Cockers.
> 
> My dogs aren't allowed up on the furniture, but that doesn't keep them from trying to get up there, day after day, and year after year.
> 
> Zak sounds like a ball of fire and I gotta luv that spirit in my hunting dogs.
> You can tone it down later, but cant put it into a birddog. Good stuff.
> 
> NB


----------



## dauber

Thanks all! 

Yes Jeffrey he is always raring to go, he can get out of the kennel from a deep sleep and go, go, go!

Thanks Mike and Stan. Stan you and Jack neeeed one more:evil:

Rod, Yes ours used to not be allowed on the furniture, but then Karen said with my profession and hobbies the dogs are far cleaner than me so what the heck! They do all know that Karen and I get first choice and they have to vacate if we want a chair!

Yes he sure is a ball of fire!! We are starting some place board "work/fun" this monring. I need to build one of those tables like Hal's. I'm getting too old to bend over to cocker hieght to get retrieves:lol:


----------



## J-Lee

Super picture Dauber, there are so many awesome pups in this thread. Thanks to all for the puppy breath.:coolgleam


----------



## sgc

Steve & Mike - one more for me & Jack, then one more, etc. Where does it all stop! Believe me I'm tempted some times. 

Jack's worked it out so he's on all the furniture but our bed. That's where I draw the line. If it was up to Joan, he'd be there too. It's bad enough you can never get away from the little guy, I don't want to sleep with him, too.


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## dauber

sgc said:


> Steve & Mike - one more for me & Jack, then one more, etc. Where does it all stop! Believe me I'm tempted some times.
> 
> Jack's worked it out so he's on all the furniture but our bed. That's where I draw the line. If it was up to Joan, he'd be there too. It's bad enough you can never get away from the little guy, I don't want to sleep with him, too.


 
Same here too, but once the alarm goes off cockers FLY up and jump on the bed bounce on us, get yelled at, jump off and start running around waiting for us to get going!


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## gundogguy

J-Lee said:


> Super picture Dauber, there are so many awesome pups in this thread. Thanks to all for the puppy breath.:coolgleam


Spot-on J-Lee!
And as of now we are just hearing about the Cockers and Springers. Soon info coming on a whole litter of Field Spaniels..
I'll get some pics! Their dandy's...


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> Spot-on J-Lee!
> And as of now we are just hearing about the Cockers and Springers. Soon info coming on a whole litter of Field Spaniels..
> I'll get some pics! Their dandy's...



Karen Bilinski's MH and SH dogs and couple of the babe's napping
MH Paige SH Mai-Tai


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Karen Bilinski's MH and SH dogs and couple of the babe's napping
> MH Paige SH Mai-Tai


Them's some cuties! Karen works hard with her dogs!


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Them's some cuties! Karen works hard with her dogs!


That's correct Steve getting a SH and a MH is a lot of work. There are some good looking field spaniels. 

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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Them's some cuties! Karen works hard with her dogs!



Does she ever! I steadied Wyatt and Suki, Karen will have them out this spring on the test circuit. They both may end up in Canada trialing this year as well. Fieldies are excepted in the Canadian trial system.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Does she ever! I steadied Wyatt and Suki, Karen will have them out this spring on the test circuit. They both may end up in Canada trialing this year as well. Fieldies are excepted in the Canadian trial system.


 
That's what she said this fall. Karen is pretty passionate about her dogs and will hold her own in her endeavors.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Guys;

I must confess know very little re the Fieldies, except that they exist. Have never seen one out hunting anywhere or on the street or even talked about on M-S, ever?

Where did they originate and what kind of work are they known for? Strong points?

NB


----------



## dauber

This is from their website: http://fieldspaniels.org/field_spaniel_breed_history.html
_The Field Spaniel had developed into a distinct breed primarily out of a combination of larger black cocker spaniels (most notably those that date back to the early 1800s from Mr. Footmans kennels) that were interbred with other regional strains, particularly those larger and longer Sussex strains. It has been alleged that in FS early development, Irish Water Spaniels (giving the top knot and refined head), Norfolk or English Springer Spaniels, and even the Basset Hound (influencing color, short crooked legs, long body length and haw) were cross bred with these early Field Spaniels. At that time, Cockers and Field Spaniels were frequently interbred, and the resultant pups were exhibited in whichever classification they most resembled, usually a categorization done by weight and color. As the varieties of land spaniels became distinct breeds, the breed known as Field Spaniels were the larger springers (over 28 pounds) that were generally black, liver or roan in color. _

I've only seen a couple of Karen's dogs and they looked like they would make nice upland hunting dogs to me.


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## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Guys;
> 
> I must confess know very little re the Fieldies, except that they exist. Have never seen one out hunting anywhere or on the street or even talked about on M-S, ever?
> 
> Where did they originate and what kind of work are they known for? Strong points?
> 
> NB


 
I've seen a few at hunt test, but never out hunting. I think it would be fun to hunt with one. They move at a much slower pace than a springer or a field bred cocker.


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Guys;
> 
> I must confess know very little re the Fieldies, except that they exist. Have never seen one out hunting anywhere or on the street or even talked about on M-S, ever?
> 
> Where did they originate and what kind of work are they known for? Strong points?
> 
> NB


Thanks Dauber for the Field Spaniel history.. Karen should be coming to training either this week or next she has been involved in conformation activities as of late I'll try to get some video of some of the Fieldies at work..Last Saturday just a little to rainy and sleety for camera work though training was good. 

Here is a clip of Suki girl short tracking trailing exercise and a steadying drill on the end


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

THANKS for the getbacks, Steve, Mike and Hal. Interesting background for the development of this breed. Lots of crosses of various spaniel "types" apparently went into their makeup, back in the day. And maybe even Basset hounds too?? :yikes:

Out of all of the various types mentioned, the Cockers and Springers became the most popular by far nowadays.

I've seen AWS, Boykins, and IWS all at work in the field but never a Fieldy.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> I've seen a few at hunt test, but never out hunting. I think it would be fun to hunt with one. They move at a much slower pace than a springer or a field bred cocker.


Oh, that brings to mind a couple of Clumber Spaniels a nice young couple brought to a picnic event a few years back. Those particular dogs moved at a "sedate pace" and constantly checked back in with their handler. Unfortunately for the Clumbers, all the birds on that beat were cleaned out by a young ECS well ahead of them.:sad:

NB


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> THANKS for the getbacks, Steve, Mike and Hal. Interesting background for the development of this breed. Lots of crosses of various spaniel "types" apparently went into their makeup, back in the day. And maybe even Basset hounds too?? :yikes:
> 
> *Out of all of the various types mentioned, the Cockers and Springers became the most popular by far nowadays.*
> 
> I've seen AWS, Boykins, and IWS and of course Fieldie's all at work in the field.
> I've seen (trained) AWS, Boykins, and IWS, Fieldies and Clumbers. These breeds do not have a trial program..
> Performance springers and Cockers And we owe it all to the field trial programs that the Cockers and Springers are a part of.
> Think of it if the other spaniel breeds had a winner take all program the changes that would take place in their respected breeds. Those that did not participate would be left by the way side those that did would eventually, and in a relative short period of time,become more efficient and demonstrative in their skill sets.
> 
> Or to reverse that thought lets say the Cockers gave up on trialing..how long would it take for them to fall out of favor. When their trial program was reestablished back in the 90's the dogs for the most part were fairly blase, now look at them breeders are paying attention to what they are doing and new and varied training techniques are being use to bring out their talents for the sporting community to see..because of competition the breed,Cockers, is doing spectacular work all around the country. As are the Springers!
> 
> Bottom line, it is all about the competition that makes the breeds change and improve. Without competition breeding for performance is fairly dead in the water.


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## Gavan

judging Field Spaniels in AKC Hunt Tests and they attractive dogs. For the die hard hunter I would think you would have to shave that beautiful coat or pick up a lot of burrs on a normal hunt.


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## Gavan

and my recollection is that checking back with the handler was not high on their list of priorities....


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## Steelheadfred

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Oh, that brings to mind a couple of Clumber Spaniels a nice young couple brought to a picnic event a few years back. Those particular dogs moved at a "sedate pace" and constantly checked back in with their handler. Unfortunately for the Clumbers, all the birds on that beat were cleaned out by a young ECS well ahead of them.:sad:
> 
> NB



It would be a race between paint drying and grass growing.


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> and my recollection is that checking back with the handler was not high on their list of priorities....


Back when we used to do the weekend training sessions around the state there were a few clumbers that used to come, if I remember correctly one was a JH. I recall them having their nose to the ground almopst like a hound! They didn't have to check back too often since they didn't get out too far. But I recall the couple we worked with having very good noses!



Steelheadfred said:


> It would be a race between paint drying and grass growing.


That's a desription of me walking! Maybe I should have got a clumber pup:yikes:.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> That's a desription of me walking! Maybe I should have got a clumber pup:yikes:.


Nooooooooooo...........

Hey Steve, a pup like the Zackster is what keeps 'ya young. :evil:

Looking forward to some more pics of yr young charger. Take in some puppy stakes next fall??

NB


----------



## Gavan

apt one for the clumbers I've seen. They do have good noses and tend to hunt with them glued to the ground. Their hunting pace was very slow and their typical retrieving and mouth didn't measure up to the other spaniels. Had more than one bird cruncher.


----------



## Steelheadfred

dauber said:


> Back when we used to do the weekend training sessions around the state there were a few clumbers that used to come, if I remember correctly one was a JH. I recall them having their nose to the ground almopst like a hound! They didn't have to check back too often since they didn't get out too far. But I recall the couple we worked with having very good noses!
> 
> 
> 
> That's a desription of me walking! Maybe I should have got a clumber pup:yikes:.



More than one way to skin a cat Dauber and you seem to have that figured out, my advice, stick with what's working, Cockers.

That trial Rod speaks about was a lot of of fun. If I remember, in a flushing dog field that was 16 some dogs we had all the common breeds, ESS (I'm with Brandy), ECS (Rod's dogs), Labs, a Golden, a couple flat coats, a couple clumbers. It was great diversity.


----------



## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> It would be a race between paint drying and grass growing.


 
:SHOCKED: I spent 6 years making a titled Master Hunter out of 1 Clumber
Between the grass growing and the paint drying no wonder I'm such an old guy now.
Duaber you will recognise the hillside we are on it was the 3rd series of the Cocker trial..The dog did make a nice mark on a long fall.





 
Yes the breed is noted for being methodical in it's work.


----------



## Steelheadfred

You are far more patient than I could ever be Hal, how many attempts did it take?


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> apt one for the clumbers I've seen. They do have good noses and tend to hunt with them glued to the ground. Their hunting pace was very slow and their typical retrieving and mouth didn't measure up to the other spaniels. Had more than one bird cruncher.


Yup! that was my experience too Gavan.



gundogguy said:


> :SHOCKED: I spent 6 years making a titled Master Hunter out of 1 Clumber
> Between the grass growing and the paint drying no wonder I'm such an old guy now.
> Duaber you will recognise the hillside we are on it was the 3rd series of the Cocker trial..The dog did make a nice mark on a long fall.
> 
> Yes the breed is noted for being methodical in it's work.


Yup, yup...that is a good vid of clumber work! I'm begining to like that pace more and more I recognize that hill the best bent over with a vest full of pheasants:evil:. That was a real nice mark by Clumby too!

Speaking of different spaniel breeds what's the groups experience with Welshies? We had them come to training a few times, but the people that brought them said they only worked ofr women and didn't let me near them. Karen got to work with them and she would just shake her head afterwards. So I figure maybe not the best examples of the breed.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> :SHOCKED: I spent 6 years making a titled Master Hunter out of 1 Clumber
> Between the grass growing and the paint drying no wonder I'm such an old guy now.
> Duaber you will recognise the hillside we are on it was the 3rd series of the Cocker trial..The dog did make a nice mark on a long fall.
> 
> D Too Hup - YouTube
> 
> Yes the breed is noted for being methodical in it's work.


I recognize the handler and dog in the video (Roe F., DVM and D 2). I've seen them run in hunt tests in Wisconsin. Clumber's are not for me but they are kind of fun to watch. It's like a Mack truck in creeper gear bearing down on the bird.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I recognize the handler and dog in the video (Roe F., DVM and D 2). I've seen them run in hunt tests in Wisconsin. Clumber's are not for me but they are kind of fun to watch. It's like a Mack truck in creeper gear bearing down on the bird.


Perfect description!


----------



## Steelheadfred

There are four hunting Clumbers in the Greater TC area. 

Always begs a fun question, if you were going to own a non mainstream breed, what would it be?

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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> There are four hunting Clumbers in the Greater TC area.
> 
> Always begs a fun question, if you were going to own a non mainstream breed, what would it be?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Springer or Lab. We've already owned AWS's, chessies and cockers:evil:.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Violation of the question, "non mainstream" Steve.

I think I.d get a curly or flat coat. The Leak.s Flat Coats are beautiful. 

Wait, I might get a Boykin.

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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Violation of the question, "non mainstream" Steve.
> 
> I think I.d get a curly or flat coat. The Leak.s Flat Coats are beautiful.
> 
> Wait, I might get a Boykin.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


GEEEEEZ Louise! Must be a a slow day over at the U.J.


----------



## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Violation of the question, "non mainstream" Steve.
> 
> I think I.d get a curly or flat coat. The Leak.s Flat Coats are beautiful.
> 
> Wait, I might get a Boykin.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Fritz your speaking of non mainstream spaniels, right? My vote would be for a Boykin too.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

The lasted Zac pics. First is Zac doing some place board fun, then Zac doing a retrieve with wing taped to dummy.


----------



## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> GEEEEEZ Louise! Must be a a slow day over at the U.J.


 
someone has to keep the non flushing dog believers in check Hal.

Had a stressful day today between work and family. It's nice to come talk about birddogs.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> The lasted Zac pics. First is Zac doing some place board fun, then Zac doing a retrieve with wing taped to dummy.


Thanks, Steve.

On the place board, he's looking around to see what else he could be doing thats "FUN" whole he's there. He's got that place board stuff down pat already, in his own little mind, I'm sure.

Cockers can get bored easily with yard work stuff. Mine sure did.

How many throws do you do with that dummy at one time??


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> Clumber's are not for me but they are kind of fun to watch. It's like a Mack truck in creeper gear bearing down on the bird.


That's one heck of a visual image, Jill. Good stuff.

But very apropos to what I remember also.

NB


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Thanks, Steve.
> 
> On the place board, he's looking around to see what else he could be doing thats "FUN" whole he's there. He's got that place board stuff down pat already, in his own little mind, I'm sure.
> 
> Cockers can get bored easily with yard work stuff. Mine sure did.
> 
> How many throws do you do with that dummy at one time??


2 is the norm. I like him running wide open and flying into my arms. We are just starting the hup. He likes it on the board. We have also done a few retrieves from the board.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> The lasted Zac pics. First is Zac doing some place board fun, then Zac doing a retrieve with wing taped to dummy.


Zac has a very nice, shiny coat. Nice pics, as usual! Looks like the little guy is coming along real well.

My 7 yr. old, Bullet, gets bored real easily. The 4 yr. old, Stormy, will retrieve nonstop. I don't think I could throw long enough to make him quit. Funny how much they're alike and yet so different.


----------



## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> You are far more patient than I could ever be Hal, how many attempts did it take?



I'm not from Appalachia so I have just the normal number of toes and fingers, so I lost count after 20...maybe 30.. Most of which was handler error.

Not to run down the breed but really they are better suited for pack work on rabbits. However as been demonstrated the Spaniel hunt test is a catch all for entry's and entry fodder..i.e. Airedales, Flat coats and Curly coats. Heck it is not even call the Spaniel Hunt test It's call the Flushing dog test or some such nonsense.
The AKC bastardization of the program is just appalling.


----------



## gundogguy

truly an enjoyable time out of doors for man and dog!






Ran 2 bunnies on are pre-training pack walk. Zeta and Vegas oh my did they explode over that... what a time not to have the cam..I'll be prepared next time


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> truly an enjoyable time out of doors for man and dog!
> 
> Cocker Spaniel rabbiting Woodash Gundogs - YouTube
> 
> Ran 2 bunnies on are pre-training pack walk. Zeta and Vegas oh my did they explode over that... what a time not to have the cam..I'll be prepared next time


Hey the guy isn't wearing hunter's orange!!  JK

Looking forward to seeing your videos Hal. Thanks for posting this clip, great working spaniel! :thumbup:





posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> truly an enjoyable time out of doors for man and dog!
> 
> Cocker Spaniel rabbiting - Woodash Gundogs - YouTube
> 
> Ran 2 bunnies on are pre-training pack walk. Zeta and Vegas oh my did they explode over that... what a time not to have the cam..I'll be prepared next time


Very nice! Nice example of teamwork and nice close work leading to a bunny in the bag! I loved the weeds on the dogs head!

I bet Zeta and Vegas loved bunnies off their nose.


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> *Hey the guy isn't wearing hunter's orange!! * JK
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Yes, You have to feel sorry for him, he doesn't have a government that tells him how to dress or what to wear when he is out with his dog and his gun like we do!!

Duaber Zeta came right out her skin, I knew she had about two more running gears that we had not seen up to that date she showed me those 2 plus one that I did not realize existed. What fun!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Yes, You have to feel sorry for him, he doesn't have a government that tells him how to dress or what to wear when he is out with his dog and his gun like we do!!


You got that right!! 

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## michgundog

I'm not certain how much is "set in stone" yet, but it appears the American Water Spaniel Club in Michigan, is planning on hold a hunt test in 2013. The location will be at Colonial Farms. The tests are open to all flushing spaniels, Airedale terriers, flat coated and curly coated retrievers.


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## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Yes, You have to feel sorry for him, he doesn't have a government that tells him how to dress or what to wear when he is out with his dog and his gun like we do!!
> 
> Duaber Zeta came right out her skin, I knew she had about two more running gears that we had not seen up to that date she showed me those 2 plus one that I did not realize existed. What fun!


They do have hunting laws in UK. They also have stricked gun laws and laws about dogs such as tail docking and others. They can't use an e-collar. They have goverment regulation it's just not all the same as ours.

Fritz, if you and Rod are talking about the RGS fun trial that Brandy and I ran in it was not a ECS that cleaned up the field on our run Rod, it was an ESS.

You know there are still tons of grouse out there and the last two days of duck season to hunt. What are you guys doing here typing about it?

I missed two months out of this season so I am trying to make up for lost time.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> You know there are still tons of grouse out there and the last two days of duck season to hunt. What are you guys doing here typing about it?
> 
> I missed two months out of this season so I am trying to make up for lost time.


Hey Doug! Good luck hunting. Hope you and Brandy get your limit. It's raining here so I'm staying dry. I guess I'm a fair weather hunter.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

JAM said:


> Hey Doug! Good luck hunting. Hope you and Brandy get your limit. It's raining here so I'm staying dry. I guess I'm a fair weather hunter.


If I could shoot all the grouse she flushes I could get my limit couple times over every time we go out. To many trees. Duck hunting was not good this weekend. I went out with a couple friends yeasterday to Manistee river and we didn't see a single duck. Brandy had a good time running around in her duck hunting vest. I went out for a couple hours on eastbay and saw ducks but never close enough to shoot. Will be back at work on the grouse tomorrow while everyone else is at work.:lol:


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Hey Doug! Good luck hunting. Hope you and Brandy get your limit. It's raining here so I'm staying dry. I guess I'm a fair weather hunter.


Good luck Doug and Brandy, hope yous were able ot bag a few of something. There were some real nice rafts of ducks under the bridge Thursday, I'm not sure if that is UP or NLP though. The NLP can use a few less grouse:evil:. Rain here too, plus more garden fed venison to cut up. Tomorrow the grouse better look out though.


----------



## JAM

I finally got to meet Steve and Karen and their pack. Managed to snap a few of their new pocket rocket, Zac before the rain forced the camera back in the car. He's a real keeper!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I finally got to meet Steve and Karen and their pack. Managed to snap a few of their new pocket rocket, Zac before the rain forced the camera back in the car. He's a real keeper!


We really enjoyed the day trianing with Jill, Bullet and Stormy. Thanks for the pictures Jill they are fantastic! Zac made his first "retrieve" (hand tossed) of a hen pheasant yesterday too! 

Jill's experience and knowledge is going to help us out a bunch in training Zac and Smoke next summer when we get over to train with her group.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> We really enjoyed the day trianing with Jill, Bullet and Stormy. Thanks for the pictures Jill they are fantastic! Zac made his first "retrieve" (hand tossed) of a hen pheasant yesterday too!
> 
> Jill's experience and knowledge is going to help us out a bunch in training Zac and Smoke next summer when we get over to train with her group.


We had fun, too, in spite of the weather. We're looking forward to training with you again. Next summer will be great with the help of you, Karen and the boys. 

Bob should be up and running again by then. He's the REAL trainer - I'm a novice just having fun and trying to improve my skills. I have a long way to go!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> We really enjoyed the day trianing with Jill, Bullet and Stormy. Thanks for the pictures Jill they are fantastic! Zac made his first "retrieve" (hand tossed) of a hen pheasant yesterday too!
> 
> Jill's experience and knowledge is going to help us out a bunch in training Zac and Smoke next summer when we get over to train with her group.



Outstanding pics.. what Zac"attack" gives one the impression of energy and attitude outstanding pup great pics JAM! thanks for sharing.
Really glad you all are getting together, Bob S understands the Goodall system of Spaniel group training and will be able to take you, if you participate, to canine performance levels you could never achieve on your own. 
Some times and I have seen it before a new pup within the group which revitalize and energize the group to the next level of training, best of fortunes to you all in reaching those new heights.


----------



## sgc

Nice pictures Steve.


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## michgundog

Nice looking pup Steve. Thanks for posting JAM.

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## Jeffrey Towler

Jam

Puppy is very cute!

Regards
Jeff


----------



## Gavan

Remind me of the breeding of your new pup.


----------



## JackieTreeHorn

Grousing about last week, noticed that the birds were really grouped up. I tried some of my mid-season spots and didn't get a single flush. So, I decided to change it up and try different covers that I haven't hunted in a few years and hit the jackpot. Birds were really bunched up. I stopped in the two track to dislodge a branch from the bottom of my rig when a bird flushed from the tree right next to me. Got the dogs out to quickly track him down, since I had a great line on him. Just as we approached, a group of 10 blew up to our left and I completely whiffed due to flock shooting. 4 more singles popped out of this same area while I stood there reloading, and generally watching in dumbfounded amazement. Rather than chase them all down, I decided that I had blown my best opportunity and the victory should rightfully go to the birds. Went home empty handed, but it was really fantastic to see those numbers in my old stomping grounds. Side note, Betsie got a hemlock needle lodged in her eye and is in surgery now to remove it. Fingers are crossed that we can get back out this weekend to try it again, and maybe Betsie's dad will be better prepared.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> Remind me of the breeding of your new pup.


 
Here it is Gavan. Very heavy British background on this one.

As Hal noted he has lots of attitude and energy!


----------



## dauber

JackieTreeHorn said:


> Grousing about last week, noticed that the birds were really grouped up. I tried some of my mid-season spots and didn't get a single flush. So, I decided to change it up and try different covers that I haven't hunted in a few years and hit the jackpot. Birds were really bunched up. I stopped in the two track to dislodge a branch from the bottom of my rig when a bird flushed from the tree right next to me. Got the dogs out to quickly track him down, since I had a great line on him. Just as we approached, a group of 10 blew up to our left and I completely whiffed due to flock shooting. 4 more singles popped out of this same area while I stood there reloading, and generally watching in dumbfounded amazement. Rather than chase them all down, I decided that I had blown my best opportunity and the victory should rightfully go to the birds. Went home empty handed, but it was really fantastic to see those numbers in my old stomping grounds. Side note, Betsie got a hemlock needle lodged in her eye and is in surgery now to remove it. Fingers are crossed that we can get back out this weekend to try it again, and maybe Betsie's dad will be better prepared.


Good luck with Betsie's surgery. Yes I find it similar quite often in Dec. large groups all close by. Today I committed the rookie mistake after walking for 45 minutes with only a flush or 2 in the balsam I couldn't see, when one finally showed itself I emptied the 28 on a marginal ranged flush. Then promptly got a real nice look at the nex 3 that fly right by my head as I stood with an empty gun:sad:. Go get em the next time!


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## Steelheadfred

That's why they are the King Steve.

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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> That's why they are the King Steve.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I've made that mistake many times on wild pheasants and shaprtails out west, but not many times on grouse. Whatever I'm hunting today is always King Fritz, be it snipe, woodcock, woodducks, geese, bunnies, roosters....right now it is red squirrels if those little suckers don't get out of the bird feeder.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I've made that mistake many times on wild pheasants and shaprtails out west, but not many times on grouse. Whatever I'm hunting today is always King Fritz, be it snipe, woodcock, woodducks, geese, bunnies, roosters....*right now it is red squirrels if those little suckers don't get out of the bird feeder.*




Ah ya the perfect 28g target!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> I've made that mistake many times on wild pheasants and shaprtails out west, but not many times on grouse. Whatever I'm hunting today is always King Fritz, be it snipe, woodcock, woodducks, geese, bunnies, roosters....right now it is red squirrels if those little suckers don't get out of the bird feeder.


Steve, 

Save the 28 ga ammo, that stuff is *pricy*

A scoped pellet rifle works real good too, on those little red bastages.:evil:
Just sayin.........

OK, here's another thought......... I'll bet a "Zak attack" would learn 'um real good. Hunting Cockers will hunt _anything, literally_, from Mice to Moose, I always say.:yikes:

NB


----------



## sgc

Yes; read the story Robin by Jim Corbett. He used a small spaniel to hunt tigers, leopards, etc. in India. It's my favorite dog story. Very, very good.


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Steve,
> 
> Save the 28 ga ammo, that stuff is *pricy*
> 
> NB


Yeah... What's up with that? I reload and the 12 ga. shells take a lot more powder and lead than the 28 ga. It's less expensive to reload 28's so why are the factory loads so expensive? That just doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Steelheadfred

JAM said:


> Yeah... What's up with that? I reload and the 12 ga. shells take a lot more powder and lead than the 28 ga. It's less expensive to reload 28's so why are the factory loads so expensive? That just doesn't make sense to me.


Demand side of the supply curve.

I was given a great 7/8oz 12 reload, you have to buy the 7/8 wad, but its perfect for skeet, training birds, ext...

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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Yeah... What's up with that? I reload and the 12 ga. shells take a lot more powder and lead than the 28 ga. *It's less expensive to reload 28's so why are the factory loads so expensive? That just doesn't *make sense to me.


Right On Jam... I loaded a 100 28g's today for about 3.75 box.
That's why i made the statement about 28G and *red squirrlels*
cheap nuisance ammunition..Also works great on *dragon fly's*, now that's great summer afternoon shooting

reload calculator:
http://www.losttarget.com/costcal.htm

Have fun


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Steve,
> 
> Save the 28 ga ammo, that stuff is *pricy*
> 
> A scoped pellet rifle works real good too, on those little red bastages.:evil:
> Just sayin.........
> 
> OK, here's another thought......... I'll bet a "Zak attack" would learn 'um real good. Hunting Cockers will hunt _anything, literally_, from Mice to Moose, I always say.:yikes:
> 
> NB


Ya, I waste enough 28 the way it is. Price should bge coming down soon JAM with all the empties Franchi is kicking out:yikes:. The scoped pellet gun does a nice job. Buster the cat retrieves most already and she is line steady and retrieves back to the deck, but not hand. I am sure Zac-o would love them, everything that moves, it don't even have to move is attacked.


----------



## METRO1

hal not sure if it was u asking who mikes pup was out of, i hooked him up with max from indiana who has a sister to my maze that u judged, that is her daughter, so it go back to maze and my katie and remmy,witch go back to druid moss, rytex rocky ria and so on,all blood from andrew green


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## METRO1

u may also know big max, andrews buddy plus he s guided at willow


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## gundogguy

METRO1 said:


> hal not sure if it was u asking who mikes pup was out of, i hooked him up with max from indiana who has a sister to my maze that u judged, that is her daughter, so it go back to maze and my katie and remmy,witch go back to druid moss,_* Rytex *_rocky ria and so on,all blood from andrew green


Sure Mike's pup (I'm sure he calls it some other than Mike's pup!)
Goes back to Premiere and Epic Rytex Kennel and the
incomparable Ian Openshaw http://www.rytexgundogs.com/

In addition to Mike's Pup, Openshaw's training and handling of the Chyknell dogs, Wendy won the Championship with NFC FC Chyknell Megan are the strength in the Daubers, Zac, sire's line. Cockers or Springers Rytex has left it's mark on the Spaniel world.
He and Wendy's dogs set the standard for our spaniel breeds like few others. And in his spare time he has made Labrador Ret. field champions as well.
The real key to all this "breeder speak' is to train and develop a dog that stands with the rest of it's relatives.
The talent is there now lets let it rise to the surface..Have Fun!

If I know Max from Indiana I cannot place him.....


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## michgundog

Gary is speaking of the white faced pup. My Finn was the sire, his breeder(Finn) bought his sire or dam from the openshaw's. Finn is from Working Spaniel Kennels near Erie, PA. Breeder Mr Stephen Reynolds. The bigger picture your right Hal, it's more about the training to bring out those instincts. 


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## METRO1

hal and mike here's some recent pictures of my moss pup. she's out of my woody dog that i sold. i have some great pictures of him that i will be posting from the guy out west who bought him.

[/ATTACH]


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## michgundog

Nice pictures Gary!! Is that down at David's place? How big was the hunt? Do you still have openings for up coming hunts? 

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## GamebirdPreserve

michgundog said:


> I'm not certain how much is "set in stone" yet, but it appears the American Water Spaniel Club in Michigan, is planning on hold a hunt test in 2013. The location will be at Colonial Farms. The tests are open to all flushing spaniels, Airedale terriers, flat coated and curly coated retrievers.
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
*We have it on our calendar for the last Weekend in April 2013.*


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Gary is speaking of the white faced pup. My Finn was the sire, his breeder(Finn) bought his sire or dam from the openshaw's. Finn is from Working Spaniel Kennels near Erie, PA. Breeder Mr Stephen Reynolds. The bigger picture your right Hal, it's more about the training to bring out those instincts.
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



That's great Mike! so what do you call the White faced pup...******?

Ian Openshaw's name has been bandied about of late look how 2012 has treated him and his wife Wendy:
*As of November 1st 
Ben Randall - FTCH Heolybwlch Fatty Previous years winner 2010 &2011
Jamie Reid - FTCH Glenugie's Desire 
Ian Openshaw - FTCH Tiptop Jack Dime
Ian Openshaw - FTCH Mallowdale Midge
Ian Openshaw - FTCH Tudorbriar Moonwarrior
Ian Openshaw - FTCH Winhocklin Single Star of Tiptopjack
Ian Openshaw - FTCH Brook Furlong of Tiptopjack
Ian Openshaw - FTCH Western Rosie
Will Clulee - FTCH Poolgreen Farlow Ben
Will Clulee - FTCH Moel Famau Griffon
Will Clulee - FTCH Lockslane Archibald 
Simon Dixon - FTCH Mallowdale Maggie
John Bailey - FTCH Gournay Court Ginger,
Wendy Openshaw - FTCH Tiptopjack Sixpence
Wendy Openshaw - Chyknell Dove
Simon Tyers - FTCH Dovescar Demon
Simon Tyers - FTCH Lovelight Garnet Glow of Rinagree
Lee Cooper - FTCH Little Felt
Richard Claydon - FTCH Kingcott Eclipse
Paul Harrison - Kennine Wild Lavender
Jeremy Davies - FTCH Nantsannan Calpurnia of Dolbrenin
Nick Gregory - FTCH Tudorbriar Moonstar
Andy Robinson - FTCH Meadowsedge Shooting Star (Qualified but is Judging)
R Laud - Fenlord Dancing Queen
Anita Jones - FTCH Centrewalk Willow of Episcopi
Richard Preest - Centrewalk Moonshell
Tom Skelly - Timsgarry Swift
Nigel Partiss - Mallowdale Music of Tiptopjack
Stuart Morgan - Maesydderwen Snoopy
Andy Skinner - FTCH Murrayeden Merrill
Stuart Morgan - FTCH Maesydderwen Saucy
John Keegan - Satcumo Raven from Geordieland
Nick Gregory - Voodoo Black Widow
Graham West - FTCH Wetlands Spice of Leeglen*


This is not a complete list of qualifiers it is up to date as of November1 2012.

I'm certain that with the Cocker Championships being held at Sandrigham and with the Queen handing out placements I sure the Openshaw'a are bringing their "A" game.


----------



## michgundog

GamebirdPreserve said:


> *We have it on our calendar for the last Weekend in April 2013.*


Great, thanks, Vicki. Merry Christmas to you, Bill and your family. See you in 2013.

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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> That's great Mike! so what do you call the White faced pup...******?
> 
> Ian Openshaw's name has been bandied about of late look how 2012 has treated him and his wife Wendy:
> *As of November 1st
> Ben Randall - FTCH Heolybwlch Fatty Previous years winner 2010 &2011
> Jamie Reid - FTCH Glenugie's Desire
> Ian Openshaw - FTCH Tiptop Jack Dime
> Ian Openshaw - FTCH Mallowdale Midge
> Ian Openshaw - FTCH Tudorbriar Moonwarrior
> Ian Openshaw - FTCH Winhocklin Single Star of Tiptopjack
> Ian Openshaw - FTCH Brook Furlong of Tiptopjack
> Ian Openshaw - FTCH Western Rosie
> Will Clulee - FTCH Poolgreen Farlow Ben
> Will Clulee - FTCH Moel Famau Griffon
> Will Clulee - FTCH Lockslane Archibald
> Simon Dixon - FTCH Mallowdale Maggie
> John Bailey - FTCH Gournay Court Ginger,
> Wendy Openshaw - FTCH Tiptopjack Sixpence
> Wendy Openshaw - Chyknell Dove
> Simon Tyers - FTCH Dovescar Demon
> Simon Tyers - FTCH Lovelight Garnet Glow of Rinagree
> Lee Cooper - FTCH Little Felt
> Richard Claydon - FTCH Kingcott Eclipse
> Paul Harrison - Kennine Wild Lavender
> Jeremy Davies - FTCH Nantsannan Calpurnia of Dolbrenin
> Nick Gregory - FTCH Tudorbriar Moonstar
> Andy Robinson - FTCH Meadowsedge Shooting Star (Qualified but is Judging)
> R Laud - Fenlord Dancing Queen
> Anita Jones - FTCH Centrewalk Willow of Episcopi
> Richard Preest - Centrewalk Moonshell
> Tom Skelly - Timsgarry Swift
> Nigel Partiss - Mallowdale Music of Tiptopjack
> Stuart Morgan - Maesydderwen Snoopy
> Andy Skinner - FTCH Murrayeden Merrill
> Stuart Morgan - FTCH Maesydderwen Saucy
> John Keegan - Satcumo Raven from Geordieland
> Nick Gregory - Voodoo Black Widow
> Graham West - FTCH Wetlands Spice of Leeglen*
> 
> 
> This is not a complete list of qualifiers it is up to date as of November1 2012.
> 
> I'm certain that with the Cocker Championships being held at Sandrigham and with the Queen handing out placements I sure the Openshaw'a are bringing their "A" game.


Probably would have been a great choice, but we decided on "Rory". I'll bring him down in the spring, he still has a lot of growing to do.

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## GamebirdPreserve

michgundog said:


> Great, thanks, Vicki. Merry Christmas to you, Bill and your family. See you in 2013.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
No, thank you for mentioning the event. It is a newer one and so could probably use some publicity. 


Holiday Blessings to all of the wonderful dog lovers on this forum!


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Probably would have been a great choice, but we decided on "Rory". I'll bring him down in the spring, he still has a lot of growing to do.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


"Rory" that's a good release name short and sharp and it end's with the "y" sound.


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## JAM

Wednesday I went hunting. There wasn't so much as a spot of snow. Last night it started and this morning woke up to this:










Stormy's happy it's here.


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## Gavan

Those spaniels do love the snow. Merry Christmas!


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## JAM

Gavan said:


> Those spaniels do love the snow. Merry Christmas!


Oh yeah! I wish I could share their love but of course they don't have to shovel the stuff. 

Merry Christmas!


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## michgundog

JAM said:


> Oh yeah! I wish I could share their love but of course they don't have to shovel the stuff.
> 
> Merry Christmas!


Great pics for Christmas cards.

Merry Christmas to all!! 

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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> "Rory" that's a good release name short and sharp and it end's with the "y" sound.


Here's a pic of the white faced pup aka Rory finishing up a retrieve with a dead pigeon. 

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## JAM

michgundog said:


> Here's a pic of the white faced pup aka Rory finishing up a retrieve with a dead pigeon.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Nice retrieve, Rory! He'll be easy to keep track of in the woods with all his white. Good looking pup!


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## gundogguy

Nancy Jo takes her for a spin.






Upwind about 15 mph and cold


----------



## JAM

Very nice work, Zeta! Especially nice for such a young pup!


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Very nice work, Zeta! Especially nice for such a young pup!


Thanks Jam You are always very cordial.
Though really because of the number of young spaniels here on the forum I was much more interested in starting a discussion on the subject of starting and developing the spaniel. Be it Cocker or Springer or Boykin or any of the other varieties of flushing spaniels.

Considering that there are a number of prerequisite that should be addressed even before running between wing guns. As we move Zeta down the pipe so to speak to the big Kahuna of steadying, we will continue to reinstate the basics and approach basics with new exercises to eliminate boredom and complacency


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## dauber

JAM said:


> Wednesday I went hunting. There wasn't so much as a spot of snow. Last night it started and this morning woke up to this:


Stormy has those intense eyes! Love em. Nice pictures, glad we missed the storm, but it was all still here when we got home.


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Stormy has those intense eyes! Love em.


Thanks, Dauber. Stormy's nick name is, "The Yellow-eyed Devil Dog." He can be a real stinker sometimes.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Thanks Jam You are always very cordial.
> Though really because of the number of young spaniels here on the forum I was much more interested in starting a discussion on the subject of starting and developing the spaniel. Be it Cocker or Springer or Boykin or any of the other varieties of flushing spaniels.
> 
> Considering that there are a number of prerequisite that should be addressed even before running between wing guns. As we move Zeta down the pipe so to speak to the big Kahuna of steadying, we will continue to reinstate the basics and approach basics with new exercises to eliminate boredom and complacency


Great video Hal! It has been great watching Zeta develop, and she is sure coming along well.

Zac will be about 14 weeks this week. He is doing the couple retrieves in the house or outside with various objects from balls, retriveing dummies, small dokens, wings, wing taped bumpers, and has done dead chukar and hen pheasant. We olny do a couple at a time, his energy is very high, but his attention span is VERY short. He is recalling quite well but inside and out. He is begining to get "hup", but we haven't extended time on the stay at all. We were taking walks in various grass and cover before the snow. He loves the snow so it might just be snow walks for a while now. We also have been doing some of these things (hups, retrieves, and recalls) off the place boards . 

The way I think about training is that many of these things will be done most every day and continue to build other task as he gets these down. What do the others think and what are other puppiers doing?


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## michgundog

Steve my pup at 13 weeks is doing about the same as your pup. Since its still hunting season day light and weekend time is limited I:ve been doing the basics in my garage and front yard with the aide of yard lights. Once hunting is over I'll me able to devote more weekend time. I know with all of my previous pups I'll take them for walks in field using a zigzag pattern such as in quartering. Pups are a lot of fun! 

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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Great video Hal! It has been great watching Zeta develop, and she is sure coming along well.
> 
> Zac will be about 14 weeks this week. He is doing the couple retrieves in the house or outside with* various objects from balls, retriveing dummies, small dokens, wings, wing taped bumpers, and has done dead chukar and hen pheasant. We olny do a couple at a time, his energy is very high, *but his attention span is VERY short. He is recalling quite well but inside and out. He is begining to get "hup", but we haven't extended time on the stay at all. We were taking walks in various grass and cover before the snow. He loves the snow so it might just be snow walks for a while now. We also have been doing some of these things (hups, retrieves, and recalls) off the place boards .
> 
> The way I think about training is *that many of these things will be done most every day and continue to build other task as he gets these down.* What do the others think and what are other puppiers doing?


I really like what your are doing there, IMO what you are doing with your pup is right on.Sounds like the activities that Zeta was funneled into just a mere 8 weeks ago. And these activities are all part of the prerequisite needed before starting bird work and quartering in the field either 1 handed or with wings posted up on the outside.

It is especially wise to be changing the "target' for pupster to retrieve, really helps to keep avoidance's out of the picture

Has any one ever wondered what a Dog must think about always having to look up to us big tall people? Any one ever had a Spaniel that we had to look up too?!!

Add the training table or an elevated surface to your retrieving exercises and play time, you will be just amazed at how our short in stature dogs respond to us being on a different "eye level" with us, when they bring us the target be it bump or bird..
teach every thing there, finish the retrieve, hup, back command, steadiness, it just simply helps make your intent and message clearer to the pupster.
For example Zeta has started bird work in the field, her deliveries on the table are like that of a Master hunter in the field, so this week I will begin the hunt dead or back command training.
Her bird work wil be 1,Maybe, 2 sessions per week her table exercises will be dailey... With very little pressure or conflict because of the work done previously in October and November. She is becoming as smooth as butter...


----------



## michgundog

Great news about Zeta, I enjoyed the video Hal. Another great thing about the training table or an elevated platform, it saves the back too.

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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> I really like what your are doing there, IMO what you are doing with your pup is right on.Sounds like the activities that Zeta was funneled into just a mere 8 weeks ago. And these activities are all part of the prerequisite needed before starting bird work and quartering in the field either 1 handed or with wings posted up on the outside.
> 
> It is especially wise to be changing the "target' for pupster to retrieve, really helps to keep avoidance's out of the picture
> 
> Has any one ever wondered what a Dog must think about always having to look up to us big tall people? Any one ever had a Spaniel that we had to look up too?!!
> 
> Add the training table or an elevated surface to your retrieving exercises and play time, you will be just amazed at how our short in stature dogs respond to us being on a different "eye level" with us, when they bring us the target be it bump or bird..
> teach every thing there, finish the retrieve, hup, back command, steadiness, it just simply helps make your intent and message clearer to the pupster.
> For example Zeta has started bird work in the field, her deliveries on the table are like that of a Master hunter in the field, so this week I will begin the hunt dead or back command training.
> Her bird work wil be 1,Maybe, 2 sessions per week her table exercises will be dailey... With very little pressure or conflict because of the work done previously in October and November. She is becoming as smooth as butter...


A table is on the "to build list" after New Years. Bending down isn't too bad but getting up is another story:sad:. Here in the house we use the dog rocker chair (as seen in previous pictures) as an elevated training area and boy does he like ot jump up on things!! It is amazing to see how elevation affects them. Raising him up really amps up his energy and usually focuses him much better on me for a short while anyway. Good stuff Hal!


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## Gavan

nfm


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Very nice pics of Zeta. She's looking GOOD!


dauber Nice pictures!
Zeta is looking like she is doing real well!! Thanks for posting the pic's Hal. 

Yea she breaks up the winter doldrums nicely..


I have search for some time now trying to find access to field bred pedigree archives in the UK no such luck, I mentioned Smythwick' only on the outside chance that possible some Irish imports were here stateside been used or bred..There have been a few..not many


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> dauber Nice pictures!
> Zeta is looking like she is doing real well!! Thanks for posting the pic's Hal.
> 
> Yea she breaks up the winter doldrums nicely..
> 
> 
> I have search for some time now trying to find access to field bred pedigree archives in the UK no such luck, I mentioned Smythwick' only on the outside chance that possible some Irish imports were here stateside been used or bred..There have been a few..not many


Yeah, unless the owners take the time to send the info to smythwicks, it won't get posted. Something tells me that Jason givens exwife had sites posted up at one time for researching blood lines??? Do you or anyone else recall?

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## METRO1

hey mike, here's the hunt down at dave's I was telling you about. check out the link lots of good spaniel pictures. 

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012312300228


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Zeta is looking like she is doing real well!! Thanks for posting the pic's Hal.


+1

She's looking very sharp, Hal. Good to see.

NB


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## dauber

METRO1 said:


> hey mike, here's the hunt down at dave's I was telling you about. check out the link lots of good spaniel pictures.
> 
> http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012312300228


Nice article Gary! Thanks for your time and efforts getting people especially youngsters out hunting! Nice looking dogs!


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## Jeffrey Towler

michgundog said:


> Here's a pic of the white faced pup aka Rory finishing up a retrieve with a dead pigeon.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Nice looking pup!


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## METRO1

thanks dauber, lots of fun with kids and their dads, ive been guideing and booking this groups hunt now for 12 years, they come twice a year, now bringing there kids is special,,lydia from detroit free press and i are now trying to put together a all ladies hen hunt,witch will be real fun,ive got prices on hens that are cheaper than most clubs sell chuckars,ive got 118 hens going out on 20th of jan,can t get enough of watching dogs work love it,going to have to cut season short this year because i just bred mossy and shelly to a british import,a direct son of enftch danderw druid ,and grandfather on bitch side is enftch parkbreck perfection,


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## dauber

METRO1 said:


> thanks dauber, lots of fun with kids and their dads, ive been guideing and booking this groups hunt now for 12 years, they come twice a year, now bringing there kids is special,,lydia from detroit free press and i are now trying to put together a all ladies hen hunt,witch will be real fun,ive got prices on hens that are cheaper than most clubs sell chuckars,ive got 118 hens going out on 20th of jan,can t get enough of watching dogs work love it,going to have to cut season short this year because i just bred mossy and shelly to a british import,a direct son of enftch danderw druid ,and grandfather on bitch side is enftch parkbreck perfection,


Very nice Gary with the women's hunt! That is something I've tossed around in my head for our RGS chapter to do too along with our youth hunt. That sounds liek an excellent breeding too! Good luck with all of that Gary.
Steve


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## METRO1

dauber , do u know the kittles, if u scroll through the news paper pics,thats dallas kittle,he come down on occasion to help me


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## dauber

Hope all the Spaniel Corner readers have a safe and productive New Year! Give your spaniels a pat and hope they all have many hard flushes and soft retrieves in the coming year.


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## JAM

Happy New Year!


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## gundogguy

METRO1 said:


> dauber , do u know the kittles, if u scroll through the news paper pics,thats * dallas kittle*,he come down on occasion to help me



Well Gary you do least have some good help. Sounds like you got it rolling!

Happy 2013!!


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Do you know if there's a similar site like Smythwicks, but for UK dogs only?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Mike Found it!!

Try this this site http://www.esspedigrees.co.uk/
for example:
The recent Irish Champioship winner Skronedale Romulus 5/24/2005 is out of Clarburg Art and Merlinsbrook Evita(Badgercourt blood line)

For you to access you will have to use the contact page send in your email address and site owner will send instructions. Good resource it has ped's on dogs going quite aways back

Happy NYear


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Mike Found it!!
> 
> Try this this site http://www.esspedigrees.co.uk/
> for example:
> The recent Irish Champioship winner Skronedale Romulus 5/24/2005 is out of Clarburg Art and Merlinsbrook Evita(Badgercourt blood line)
> 
> For you to access you will have to use the contact page send in your email address and site owner will send instructions. Good resource it has ped's on dogs going quite aways back
> 
> Happy NYear


Thanks Hal, this will come in handy. 

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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Thanks Hal, this will come in handy.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Glad I could help..It is a nice site lots of interesting info even reverse pedigrees which is something you do not often see. Mr Nicholson has done a fine service for Springer folks on both sides of the pond..

Here's a question what conclusions and ultimately breeding considerations can be made from studying pedigree's?
Where do you think breeders rank pedigree info in helping with the decision to use one dog over another?


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> G
> 
> Here's a question what conclusions and ultimately breeding considerations can be made from studying pedigree's?
> Where do you think breeders rank pedigree info in helping with the decision to use one dog over another?


Great questions Hal.
I would hope people would use them to better the breed and stay within family lines of already proven dogs. But with that said, they still don't make up for actually seeing the dogs in action. Sadly, some breeders are only in it for the $, which isn't all that much once you factor in all the expenses and more importantly TIME. There's also, breeders of field bred dogs, that are going the way of show breeders and breeding for a specific look or size. 



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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Here's a question what conclusions and ultimately breeding considerations can be made from studying pedigree's?
> Where do you think breeders rank pedigree info in helping with the decision to use one dog over another?


Oh boy...studying pedigrees for breeders is almost a full time job! I have very little knowledge there.

As a consumer of puppies and dogs I use the pedigree by researching the parents and especially grandparents of dogs I/Karen see work in the field. Then we try to figure out what traits are being passed on, especially now that we have been observing these dogs for a couple generations. This all helps with our decision on a dog or puppy to get. Also as we get "older" it is fun to remember seeing the dogs back on a pedigree.


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## sgc

The lines seem fairly close for the FBEC's. You don't have to go back very far to see the same individuals in the bloodlines I've looked at for this breed. I would go with proven producers or a previously proven mating.


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## gundogguy

The pedigree is a place to start as far as the selection process. Not going to be concerned at this time as to the inbreeding co-efficient s, however it is a place to begin and come to some conclusion as to whether or not I would want to spend some with the stud dog in question. 

What does the stud bring to the party that would complement my bitch.
My lady dog has to hit these standards _"what makes a spaniel a spaniel"_
_1. Drive, strength of quest,quartering style_
_2. Nose, bird finding ability_
_3. courage in the face of heavy cover_
_4. Strength of flush,boldness_
_5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth_
_6. The dogs acceptance of training_

The time I spend actually watching the prospective stud work..training Is more important,to me than viewing the dog in a trial or hunting, is essential to understanding the the dog overall make up and the relationship that he has with his owner/handler..
And how long did it take for the owner handler to establish a good working relationship. How much force was needed to establish the working habits that I would expect to see in a potential suitor. This a thumb nail sketch for sure.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> The pedigree is a place to start as far as the selection process. Not going to be concerned at this time as to the inbreeding co-efficient s, however it is a place to begin and come to some conclusion as to whether or not I would want to spend some with the stud dog in question.
> 
> What does the stud bring to the party that would complement my bitch.
> My lady dog has to hit these standards _"what makes a spaniel a spaniel"_
> _1. Drive, strength of quest,quartering style_
> _2. Nose, bird finding ability_
> _3. courage in the face of heavy cover_
> _4. Strength of flush,boldness_
> _5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth_
> _6. The dogs acceptance of training_
> 
> The time I spend actually watching the prospective stud work..training Is more important,to me than viewing the dog in a trial or hunting, is essential to understanding the the dog overall make up and the relationship that he has with his owner/handler..
> And how long did it take for the owner handler to establish a good working relationship. How much force was needed to establish the working habits that I would expect to see in a potential suitor. This a thumb nail sketch for sure.


That is excellent advice!


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## dauber

Here is a vid I made today of Zac, now about 16 weeks old starting to do his work outside. We have been doing this sort of stuff in the house (except for throwing the dead bird which Mrs D isn't crazy about in the house), now we can extend the distance and crank up the distractions gradually. I though of using our Aqua-Vu the other day out ice fishing, it isn't the best and I had trouble finding a place where I could set the "perch" camera to get it level, then Zac went and grabbed it and then dropped it in the snow, so sorry about the slightly blurry vid:lol:


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is a vid I made today of Zac, now about 16 weeks old starting to do his work outside. We have been doing this sort of stuff in the house (except for throwing the dead bird which Mrs D isn't crazy about in the house), now we can extend the distance and crank up the distractions gradually. I though of using our Aqua-Vu the other day out ice fishing, it isn't the best and I had trouble finding a place where I could set the "perch" camera to get it level, then Zac went and grabbed it and then dropped it in the snow, so sorry abou the slightly blurry vid:lol:
> 
> Zac 1 4 13 - YouTube


Absolutely awesome, wait till you line steady and intro doubles and blinds to that routine so many things can taught from this simple exercise Zac-attack looking just great...I see AA trials in his future as well, be your go to cover dog when he is matured. Really looking good!


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## Gavan

I wish I had a puppy to work with... If only my wife wouldn't divorce me if I got one right now.


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## yooperguy

Very cool to watch. 

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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Absolutely awesome, wait till you line steady and intro doubles and blinds to that routine so many things can taught from this simple exercise Zac-attack looking just great...I see AA trials in his future as well, be your go to cover dog when he is matured. Really looking good!


Looking good Steve. 

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## JAM

Very nice, Steve and Zac!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Oh boy...studying pedigrees for breeders is almost a full time job! I have very little knowledge there.
> 
> *As a consumer of puppies and dogs I use the pedigree by researching the parents and especially grandparents of dogs I/Karen see work in the field. *Then we try to figure out what traits are being passed on, especially now that we have been observing these dogs for a couple generations. This all helps with our decision on a dog or puppy to get. Also as we get "older" it is fun to remember seeing the dogs back on a pedigree.



You watched in the field, You check and confirmed the pedigree, You made the decision to start the project. Your video is "the proof is in the pudding"
Great job! Long live the Zac dog!!


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## NATTY BUMPO

AWSOME vid, Steve.

The Zak Man is looking great. Wonderfully animated. LUV those Cocker wiggle butt pups!

YG will have a great training template with his new pup, if he follows your Zak Man's progress as chronicled here.

NB


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## mudbat2128

dauber said:


> Here is a vid I made today of Zac, now about 16 weeks old starting to do his work outside. We have been doing this sort of stuff in the house (except for throwing the dead bird which Mrs D isn't crazy about in the house), now we can extend the distance and crank up the distractions gradually. I though of using our Aqua-Vu the other day out ice fishing, it isn't the best and I had trouble finding a place where I could set the "perch" camera to get it level, then Zac went and grabbed it and then dropped it in the snow, so sorry about the slightly blurry vid:lol:
> 
> Zac 1 4 13 - YouTube


Nice video, think I will try that with my next dog even though its going to be a another setter.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> I though of using our Aqua-Vu the other day out ice fishing, it isn't the best and I had trouble finding a place where I could set the "perch" camera to get it level, then Zac went and grabbed it and then dropped it in the snow, so sorry about the slightly blurry vid:lol:


Steve,

RE yr A-Vu cam. Seems like Zak has a pretty "soft mouth" bc/ it still works!!

No harm, No foul.

NB


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## dauber

Zac has certainly added energy to the household:yikes:, although I think he "sucks" it out from all the rest of us. 

Zac has now had many of the birds used for hunting and trianing as dead birds, he will soon get his first clip. First we need to continue the added distraction with him retrieving. 

Thanks all for the comments.


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## michgundog

sgc said:


> The lines seem fairly close for the FBEC's. You don't have to go back very far to see the same individuals in the bloodlines I've looked at for this breed. I would go with proven producers or a previously proven mating.


You'll see that with Field Bred Springers too. Are you looking into a friend/mate for Jack? 

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## gundogguy

Congratulations to our good friend Charlote who won an open stake in Denmark today with her cocker, Upse , from Ardcaein kennel..

Spaniel in trial has to handle any thing on the beat! Job well done!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Congratulations to our good friend Charlote who won an open stake in Denmark today with her cocker, Upse , from Ardcaein kennel..
> 
> Spaniel in trial has to handle any thing on the beat! Job well done!


 
Very nice Charlote and Upse!


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## JAM




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## dauber

JAM had a post on a different thread that got me thinking about this question; What got you into spaniels?

Here&#8217;s my story, it was a long and winding path that started with a number of labs and a golden growing up, all good waterfowl and upland dogs. When I was transferred to the EUP and got my first place that allowed dogs, I got a chessy which would be one of a string of chessies that would sleep at the foot of my bed for the next 26 years, I loved those dogs and boy were they ever tough. But at the same time there was great bird hunting in the EUP too, so I wanted more of an upland specialist, or so I thought, and got my first AWS. He was a very spaniel like AWS and hunted well in the uplands and he opened many doors for us though AWS events, but the AWS back then wasn&#8217;t classified to play any AKC events so we would tag along and run after AKC events or put on our own. During that period we met many great people that helped out the cast-off AWS people such as Gundogguy Hal who was a tremendous help to our group teaching us how to begin training flushers. Then Karen, I and a couple others started holding weekend training sessions monthly for about 9 months a year across the Midwest. That is where we began to run into other spaniel breeds such as Welshies, clumbers, IWS&#8217;s, cockers, and of course springers. It didn&#8217;t take too long for Karen and I to figure out we would be much better served in our upland hunting to have a spaniel, but we already had 4 dogs at that time and decided to wait until we had a little more room in the house. When the time came it happened to be our in his prime AWS that unexpectedly passed, so we needed a dog that was ready to go. That is when Roan our first FBECS came into our lives and took us over. It wasn&#8217;t long after that when we knew we were now spaniel people from here on out, and we are on our 4th one now with young Zac. 

I imagine most others stories take a little shorter path but I&#8217;d be interested in hearing how you got into spaniels.

Steve


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## gundogguy

Whether the path your on is long or short...it is your path.
FB Cockers have made it possible for you to grow as a hunter and as a canine behaviorist, and regardless of some may say that is exciting stuff.
You have always taken other folks breeding and made it better than they, the breeder, could have hope for the pup they entrusted with you.
Good job Steve and Karen proud to know you both.

I look forward to other' sharing their journey along the path and how they came to fall in with our beloved Spaniels..


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## gundogguy

Zeta now a started gundog
Photos should be sequence
1. Front end of the flush
2. Back end of the flush
3. Retrieving her first shot flyer

She is 6 months old tomorrow!

4. Zeta's litter mate Asher owned by Dottie Maslonek..Must be in the Genes ya think!


----------



## Jim58

Very nice Hal!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Congratulations to our good friend Charlote who won an open stake in Denmark today with her cocker, Upse , from Ardcaein kennel..
> 
> Spaniel in trial has to handle any thing on the beat! Job well done!


HOLY COW!! 

A Cocker and a big bag of quackers at a sanctioned field trial

Good Show! But just dont tell those Lab guys, because they are really gonna be POed, once again. :yikes:


----------



## Steelheadfred

Great Photo of Annie from the GDOY Trial.











Cocker Tango out of Ernie's Kennel


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta now a started gundog
> Photos should be sequence
> 1. Front end of the flush
> 2. Back end of the flush
> 3. Retrieving her first shot flyer
> 
> She is 6 months old tomorrow!
> 
> 4. Zeta's litter mate Asher owned by Dottie Maslonek..Must be in the Genes ya think!


 
Excellent work Hal and Zeta! Zeta is progressing very well. Nice flush!

Wow that is some pic of Asher! Now that is the flush I love to see when out hunting and training. That's what I love about spaniels.


----------



## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Great Photo of Annie from the GDOY Trial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cocker Tango out of Ernie's Kennel


Oh no, did I accidently put Annie in the truck?? LOL. Fritz, that's Finn. That's okay, he thinks your Ric 

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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Excellent work Hal and Zeta! Zeta is progressing very well. Nice flush!
> 
> Wow that is some pic of Asher! Now that is the flush I love to see when out hunting and training. That's what I love about spaniels.


Very nice!!! 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## JAM

Steelheadfred said:


> Great Photo of Annie from the GDOY Trial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cocker Tango out of Ernie's Kennel


Beautiful spaniels! Nice pics!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Good Idea, Jam amd Steve. I'VE ALWAYS LUVED SPANIELS.

Like many, my first hunting dog, was a Beagle, sired by the MI state CH. Got him for my 12th BD, after bugging poor Mom for at least 24 months. We had woods right behind the house and Ranger and I and my Benjaman .22 pellet gun terrorized the local cottontails right up until I went to college. We placed Ranger with an avid Beagler and 'ol Ranger lived out his days running with the pack.
Got married right out of college and Mrs Bumpo and I moved to Boston where I started an internship and Mrs B grad school. A year later we moved into a duplex and I found a way to have a bird dog. So we got a Brittany *Spaniel* out of Kaymore Kls, the top grouse/wc dog breeder in New England. Fell in with some avid sportsmen and chased birds and fish all over New England. Became active in the Central New England Brittany group and got into field trials. After six years of training in Boston, it was time to get a real job and moved to Northern New Jersey. Got more Britts and moved out to 10 acres in the country where there were lots of pheasants and room to run dogs. Set up shop with 100 quail in callback pens and 3-4 Brittany *Spaniels* at all times. Got real active in the NJ Brittany group. Field trialed from Maine to So Carolina with the help of a pro, sent dogs to Canada in the summer and Alabama in the winter for training. Mrs Bumpo drew the line at "Two Tennesse Walkers and building a horse barn" idea.  Guess it all worked out as we are still married after 47 years. After 35 years of this, we retired and moved to Northern Michigan.
We were down to our last in the long line of Britts and I wanted to try something "different". And FBECS are surely "different".  So we drove to North Dakota to get Scouty. Then our old Britt Cody died suddenly. Mrs B looked out the window and saw this little spaniel puppy moping around the kennel, mourning his lost buddy. She said "Maybe, we need another Cocker to keep Scouty company":yikes:
So I burned up the phone lines again, from NY to CA. And we drove another 2500 miles to pick up Rocky at Glencoe. The bonus of these long trips was that I got to train dogs and watch Tom Ness and Paul McGagh in action training Cockers and Springers. Very happy with the Cockers for my style of bird hunting. Both here in the grouse woods and on our annual trip Out West. NOT going to switch dog breeds again. I'll put my dogs against anybody's on their home turf. 
Rod


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Good Idea, Jam amd Steve. I'VE ALWAYS LUVED SPANIELS.
> 
> Like many, my first hunting dog, was a Beagle, sired by the MI state CH. Got him for my 12th BD, after bugging poor Mom for at least 24 months. We had woods right behind the house and Ranger and I and my Benjaman .22 pellet gun terrorized the local cottontails right up until I went to college. We placed Ranger with an avid Beagler and 'ol Ranger lived out his days running with the pack.
> Got married right out of college and Mrs Bumpo and I moved to Boston where I started an internship and Mrs B grad school. A year later we moved into a duplex and I found a way to have a bird dog. So we got a Brittany *Spaniel* out of Kaymore Kls, the top grouse/wc dog breeder in New England. Fell in with some avid sportsmen and chased birds and fish all over New England. Became active in the Central New England Brittany group and got into field trials. After six years of training in Boston, it was time to get a real job and moved to Northern New Jersey. Got more Britts and moved out to 10 acres in the country where there were lots of pheasants and room to run dogs. Set up shop with 100 quail in callback pens and 3-4 Brittany *Spaniels* at all times. Got real active in the NJ Brittany group. Field trialed from Maine to So Carolina with the help of a pro, sent dogs to Canada in the summer and Alabama in the winter for training. Mrs Bumpo drew the line at "Two Tennesse Walkers and building a horse barn" idea.  Guess it all worked out as we are still married after 47 years. After 35 years of this, we retired and moved to Northern Michigan.
> We were down to our last in the long line of Britts and I wanted to try something "different". And FBECS are surely "different".  So we drove to North Dakota to get Scouty. Then our old Britt Cody died suddenly. Mrs B looked out the window and saw this little spaniel puppy moping around the kennel, mourning his lost buddy. She said "Maybe, we need another Cocker to keep Scouty company":yikes:
> So I burned up the phone lines again, from NY to CA. And we drove another 2500 miles to pick up Rocky at Glencoe. The bonus of these long trips was that I got to train dogs and watch Tom Ness and Paul McGagh in action training Cockers and Springers. Very happy with the Cockers for my style of bird hunting. Both here in the grouse woods and on our annual trip Out West. NOT going to switch dog breeds again. I'll put my dogs against anybody's on their home turf.
> Rod


You took a long road too, at least to find the flusher kind! These spaniels do have a way of stealing your heart eh! Well said on how they match your style of hunting. Thanks Rod.


----------



## cross3700

gundogguy said:


> Zeta now a started gundog
> Photos should be sequence
> 1. Front end of the flush
> 2. Back end of the flush
> 3. Retrieving her first shot flyer
> 
> She is 6 months old tomorrow!
> 
> 4. Zeta's litter mate Asher owned by Dottie Maslonek..Must be in the Genes ya think!


Great photos, especially 1 and 2!


----------



## JAM

cross3700 said:


> Great photos, especially 1 and 2!


----------



## Duece22

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Both here in the grouse woods and on our annual trip Out West. NOT going to switch dog breeds again. I'll put my dogs against anybody's on their home turf.
> Rod


Bait Taken.....

See you at some "picnic trials" this spring Rod? Or the grouse woods next fall, my covers or yours? 


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## JAM

dauber said:


> You took a long road too, at least to find the flusher kind! These spaniels do have a way of stealing your heart eh! Well said on how they match your style of hunting. Thanks Rod.


 Great story, NB.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Duece22 said:


> Bait Taken.....
> 
> See you at some "picnic trials" this spring Rod? Or the grouse woods next fall, my covers or yours?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Always such great input, Ric.

What happened to yr bro's post? Deleted by the Mods, again?


----------



## Duece22

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Always such great input, Ric.
> 
> What happened to yr bro's post? Deleted by the Mods, again?


Not sure what post you are referring to Rod. Just responding to your post and keeping it "on topic" per what you said in your post. 


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## dauber

Duece22 said:


> Not sure what post you are referring to Rod. Just responding to your post and keeping it "*on topic*" per what you said in your post.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


On topic is "What got ya into *spaniels"* If you want to brag up a different group of dogs I'll start you all a thread. This one is for those of us who fancy spaniels, not constantly knocking them.


----------



## Duece22

dauber said:


> On topic is "What got ya into *spaniels"* If you want to brag up a different group of dogs I'll start you all a thread. This one is for those of us who fancy spaniels, not constantly knocking them.


I am not and have never "knocked" spaniels. I like spaniels and believe they have a lot a good attributes for the right person and are admirable in many ways. No where on my post did i brag up another breed, my post was in context per what Natty posted, a simple question based on what he stated.


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## gundogguy

the 10th of January
The 2012/13 English Springer Spaniel Championship will take place on the 10, 11 and 12 January 2013 at Buccleuch Estates, Thornhill, Scotland by kind invitation of his Grace, the Duke of Buccleuch.

*Judges: *Mr A Slater, Mr R Tozer, Mr I Wilson and Mr R Young

Our Springer bloodlines will be off and about beginning Thur. It is such a grand tradition!


----------



## Steelheadfred

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Always such great input, Ric.
> 
> What happened to yr bro's post? Deleted by the Mods, again?


Mods, please, I deleted it a Rod, cause your to smart to believe what you wrote tounge n cheek or not.
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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> the 10th of January
> The 2012/13 English Springer Spaniel Championship will take place on the 10, 11 and 12 January 2013 at Buccleuch Estates, Thornhill, Scotland by kind invitation of his Grace, the Duke of Buccleuch.
> 
> *Judges: *Mr A Slater, Mr R Tozer, Mr I Wilson and Mr R Young
> 
> Our Springer bloodlines will be off and about beginning Thur. It is such a grand tradition!


Wouldn't David Lissett have home field advantage??? 

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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Wouldn't David Lissett have home field advantage???
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Only one FTCH Buccleugh Jazz Owned By the Duke of Buccleugh
Do not know who is handler is. Seems odd that Lissett would only have one dog qualified. Jazz born in 06! at this level I'm not sure if being on home field, if it is home field for the dog, is a help or hindrance.
Jazz's 4 generation pedigree show 17 FTCh's, nice group of dogs given the chance to become all they could be!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Only one FTCH Buccleugh Jazz Owned By the Duke of Buccleugh
> Do not know who is handler is. Seems odd that Lissett would only have one dog qualified. Jazz born in 06! at this level I'm not sure if being on home field, if it is home field for the dog, is a help or hindrance.
> Jazz's 4 generation pedigree show 17 FTCh's, nice group of dogs given the chance to become all they could be!


Hal do you have a link, that you can post? Thanks.

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## dauber

Here is a vid of some more board work with young Zacster. He is gaining confidence. Note I am waiting for him to hup before tossing.





 
I am also switching up what he is retrieveing.


----------



## JAM

You guys are killing me with these awesome puppy videos. I'm getting a case of chronic puppy envy.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Here is a vid of some more board work with young Zacster. He is gaining confidence. Note I am waiting for him to hup before tossing.
> 
> Zac 1 12 13 board work - YouTube
> 
> I am also switching up what he is retrieveing.


Zac looks like he's having a blast and coming along well. Nice work. My daughter saw one of those ball tossers today a Jay's in Gaylord. She told me it was like what YOU have on the videos. She's paying attention! Thanks for posting. 

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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> You guys are killing me with these awesome puppy videos. I'm getting a case of chronic puppy envy.



Hi Jam 
Would this be torture?? Sassy X Freedom pups Salmy's Kennel Mike & Julie Ann Wallace:evilsmile:evilsmile


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## gundogguy

UK National Champion

*1st Ftch Broomfield Rosetta - Eddie Scott

2nd Ftch Doncaster Star - Mark Whitehouse

3rd Ftch Buccleuch Jazz - David Lisett

4th Ftch Rosebay Fantasy - Aubrey Ladyman

*

Photo of Rosetta


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Hi Jam
> Would this be torture?? Sassy X Freedom pups Salmy's Kennel Mike & Julie Ann Wallace:evilsmile:evilsmile


Yup! Hubby says, "We are NOT having 4 dogs." I don't want a divorce.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> UK National Champion
> 
> *1st Ftch Broomfield Rosetta - Eddie Scott*
> 
> *2nd Ftch Doncaster Star - Mark Whitehouse*
> 
> *3rd Ftch Buccleuch Jazz - David Lisett*
> 
> *4th Ftch Rosebay Fantasy - Aubrey Ladyman*


Rosetta looks ready to roll in that photo! Can't wait to see the Paul French vid.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Yup! Hubby says, "We are NOT having 4 dogs." I don't want a divorce.



:lol: I Knowwwwwww!.. But i donot think Mike and Julie would let have 4 of them


----------



## dauber

We have tried to discuss this topic in the past but end up spending most of the time defending that spaniels can even hunt. This is why I started the CDR thread so they have a place to discuss those methods. Heck I used to be there, hunted that way for close to 20 years. So if you are looking for a flusher that that ranges out there and hunts form objective to objective I urge you to follow the CDR thread. If you are looking to have an enjoyable hunt and go at your pace not the dogs follow along.

There has been a lot of misinformation tossed around about quartering and pattern especially as it pertains to spaniels. So here is one of those disclaimers as Natty used: This discussion pertains to flushing dogs and *spaniels in particular*. It is understood here that pointing dogs have a totally different job description and in no way is this aimed at pointing dogs. Keep in mind that that one of the top traits used in selecting breeding partners in spaniels is _&#8220;Drive, strength of quest, and quartering style&#8221; _So it is &#8220;in the genes&#8221; to quarter. Here is a vid we did yesterday of Zac on a walk. We have not done any quartering work with him yet other than some gentle pointing to help enhance his natural abilities. 



 
Quartering is a method used by spaniels to efficiently and effectively cover ground to flush game within gun range. The dog that is continually out of range is wasting energy, as is the dog that is continually covering the same ground over again. I would like to have a discussion of quartering and pattern over the next few days for me to get a better grip of what I am looking at and ways to enhance and improve what my dogs have already.
Of course the cast off or start is the actual beginning of quartering and the hunt. I was taught a long time ago (probably by Hal) to set the dog facing you and send them downwind first to get the most out of pups first cast. Here is a vid of what I think is a pretty good cast off. This is a video of Bud Clouse and I think shows a pretty good cast off. It is a 6 minute vid, but for right now I am interested in the cast off. 






 
As you can see the poor dog on the right course is out of control and heads right for the left dogs beat. This is why you want a good cast off and control with quartering. It gives your dog the best chance to find game, plus it is inefficient to be running on the other side of a course that is already being worked by a flushing dog. We don&#8217;t know what happens after the video ends, and maybe the dog settled down and made a nice run. I know when similar things happen to me, I want to try to get it corrected so I can have a much more enjoyable event or hunt.
My question for the spanielers today; is this the way to look at the cast off? Am I missing anything on the cast off? Does handler pace have any effect on pattern?

I&#8217;m thinking tomorrow&#8217;s topic will be quartering in a &#8220;face wind&#8221;.


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> UK National Champion
> 
> *1st Ftch Broomfield Rosetta - Eddie Scott
> 
> 2nd Ftch Doncaster Star - Mark Whitehouse
> 
> 3rd Ftch Buccleuch Jazz - David Lisett
> 
> 4th Ftch Rosebay Fantasy - Aubrey Ladyman
> 
> *
> 
> Photo of Rosetta


Thanks for posting the results Hal. I'm very happy to see a Rosebay dog in the top 4!! 

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## JAM

dauber said:


> We have tried to discuss this topic in the past but end up spending most of the time defending that spaniels can even hunt. This is why I started the CDR thread so they have a place to discuss those methods. Heck I used to be there, hunted that way for close to 20 years. So if you are looking for a flusher that that ranges out there and hunts form objective to objective I urge you to follow the CDR thread. If you are looking to have an enjoyable hunt and go at your pace not the dogs follow along.
> 
> There has been a lot of misinformation tossed around about quartering and pattern especially as it pertains to spaniels. So here is one of those disclaimers as Natty used: This discussion pertains to flushing dogs and *spaniels in particular*. It is understood here that pointing dogs have a totally different job description and in no way is this aimed at pointing dogs. Keep in mind that that one of the top traits used in selecting breeding partners in spaniels is _Drive, strength of quest, and quartering style _So it is in the genes to quarter. Here is a vid we did yesterday of Zac on a walk. We have not done any quartering work with him yet other than some gentle pointing to help enhance his natural abilities. Zac 1 12 13 on walk - YouTube
> 
> Quartering is a method used by spaniels to efficiently and effectively cover ground to flush game within gun range. The dog that is continually out of range is wasting energy, as is the dog that is continually covering the same ground over again. I would like to have a discussion of quartering and pattern over the next few days for me to get a better grip of what I am looking at and ways to enhance and improve what my dogs have already.
> Of course the cast off or start is the actual beginning of quartering and the hunt. I was taught a long time ago (probably by Hal) to set the dog facing you and send them downwind first to get the most out of pups first cast. Here is a vid of what I think is a pretty good cast off. This is a video of Bud Clouse and I think shows a pretty good cast off. It is a 6 minute vid, but for right now I am interested in the cast off.
> 
> 
> Trained Spaniel $1500 - YouTube
> 
> 
> Here is another disclaimer: This next video is *not a statement on anything other than what a poor cast off looks like*. I am not knocking any type of trial, organization (my goodness I love RGS and spend considerable amounts of our treasure and time supporting RGS) or anyones dog, it is not the dogs fault anyway it is a lack of training. So here is a poor example of a cast off with the dog on the right side of the course.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIH7mcgv2A&list=PLE8456969FF656C76
> 
> As you can see the poor dog on the right course is out of control and heads right for the left dogs beat. This is why you want a good cast off and control with quartering. It gives your dog the best chance to find game, plus it is inefficient to be running on the other side of a course that is already being worked by a flushing dog. We dont know what happens after the video ends, and maybe the dog settled down and made a nice run. I know when similar things happen to me, I want to try to get it corrected so I can have a much more enjoyable event or hunt.
> My question for the spanielers today; is this the way to look at the cast off? Am I missing on the cast off? Does handler pace have any effect on pattern?
> 
> Im thinking tomorrows topic will be quartering in a face wind.


Nice videos, Dauber. Little Zac is looking GOOD!


----------



## gundogguy

Dauber you have a lot of stuff here very well done...Let me study this for a bit I'll offer some information for sure...


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Here is another disclaimer: This next video is *not a statement on anything other than what a poor cast off looks like*. I am not knocking any type of trial, organization (my goodness I love RGS and spend considerable amounts of our treasure and time supporting RGS) or anyones dog, it is not the dogs fault anyway it is a lack of training. So here is a poor example of a cast off with the dog on the right side of the course.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIH7mcgv2A&list=PLE8456969FF656C76
> 
> As you can see the poor dog on the right course is out of control and heads right for the left dogs beat. This is why you want a good cast off and control with quartering. It gives your dog the best chance to find game, plus it is inefficient to be running on the other side of a course that is already being worked by a flushing dog. We dont know what happens after the video ends, and maybe the dog settled down and made a nice run. I know when similar things happen to me, I want to try to get it corrected so I can have a much more enjoyable event or hunt.
> My question for the spanielers today; is this the way to look at the cast off? Am I missing anything on the cast off? Does handler pace have any effect on pattern?
> 
> Im thinking tomorrows topic will be quartering in a face wind.



Great Topic, Steve. 

LUVed the little vid of the Zackster. That little brown dog has "the right stuff" no doubt. He cant help it bc/ its bred in to him and his parents and grandparents and on down the line. I think he was stopping to look for you to throw that ball for him. He's alrady starting to show the proper ground pattern for a spaniel. That would be quartering.

I was less impressed by the Bud Close vid. The dog "cast off" OK, but he kept looping back to Bud. I would have liked to see him proceed with a forward search.

The third short vid (dog on R) was typical for what I've seen exhibited by some at fun runs, picnics, or otherwise. The dog immediately went out of gun range, yo-yoed back, and then poached the ground, and any birds, right in front of bracemate. Very unsportsmanlike and very unsafe. I've personally "been there, done that, and bot the T shirt". The dog appeared to be untrained. And the poor guy probably thot his dog was just great. What "FUN".:evilsmile

Bing and Libby at that 2009 DOY trial gave a "text book" exhibition on how to work those cover strips. When they hit the edge, they turned OUT/FORWARD automatically and came back across the front, always within gun range, always with an eye on the handler and with very little handling needed. A thing of beauty which the judges appreciated. It sure made judging easy; the dogs placed themselves. 

I surely wish I had a video of that performance in the 2nd series. It would be instructive for the new entry.

NB


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> :lol: I Knowwwwwww!.. But i donot think Mike and Julie would let have 4 of them


That's a relief. Four MORE could get me in real deep doodoo! hehe


----------



## 2ESRGR8

dauber said:


> Here is another disclaimer: This next video is *not a statement on anything other than what a poor cast off looks like*. I am not knocking any type of trial, organization (my goodness I love RGS and spend considerable amounts of our treasure and time supporting RGS) or anyones dog, it is not the dogs fault anyway it is a lack of training. So here is a poor example of a cast off with the dog on the right side of the course.
> 
> As you can see the poor dog on the right course is out of control and heads right for the left dogs beat. This is why you want a good cast off and control with quartering. It gives your dog the best chance to find game, plus it is inefficient to be running on the other side of a course that is already being worked by a flushing dog. We dont know what happens after the video ends, and maybe the dog settled down and made a nice run.


I see it simply as inexperience, a young dog playing tag, it might be the first time it had ever been cast off with a brace mate. 
I would expect that to be pretty common behavior in a fun trial.


----------



## dauber

2ESRGR8 said:


> I see it simply as inexperience, a young dog playing tag, it might be the first time it had ever been cast off with a brace mate.
> I would expect that to be pretty common behavior in a fun trial.


Exactly, and pretty much what I tried to say Scott. Still a good example of a poor cast off. 

Natty, yes I was using Clouse vid to show an under control cast off. I have some scanned in photo's from Mike Smith's book showing this kind of pattern. My Dante is a master at this pattern as I call it "a holy pattern" since he is praying to bump into a bird from hard work rather than a good efficient pattern, plus it has lots of holes in it.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> We have tried to discuss this topic in the past but end up spending most of the time defending that spaniels can even hunt. This is why I started the CDR thread so they have a place to discuss those methods. Heck I used to be there, hunted that way for close to 20 years. So if you are looking for a flusher that that ranges out there and hunts form objective to objective I urge you to follow the CDR thread. If you are looking to have an enjoyable hunt and go at your pace not the dogs follow along.
> 
> There has been a lot of misinformation tossed around about quartering and pattern especially as it pertains to spaniels. So here is one of those disclaimers as Natty used: This discussion pertains to flushing dogs and *spaniels in particular*. It is understood here that pointing dogs have a totally different job description and in no way is this aimed at pointing dogs. Keep in mind that that one of the top traits used in selecting breeding partners in spaniels is _Drive, strength of quest, and quartering style _So it is in the genes to quarter. Here is a vid we did yesterday of Zac on a walk. We have not done any quartering work with him yet other than some gentle pointing to help enhance his natural abilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quartering is a method used by spaniels to efficiently and effectively cover ground to flush game within gun range. The dog that is continually out of range is wasting energy, as is the dog that is continually covering the same ground over again. I would like to have a discussion of quartering and pattern over the next few days for me to get a better grip of what I am looking at and ways to enhance and improve what my dogs have already.
> Of course the cast off or start is the actual beginning of quartering and the hunt. I was taught a long time ago (probably by Hal) to set the dog facing you and send them downwind first to get the most out of pups first cast. Here is a vid of what I think is a pretty good cast off. This is a video of Bud Clouse and I think shows a pretty good cast off. It is a 6 minute vid, but for right now I am interested in the cast off.
> Zac and you doing well. You are training with and for conficence and progressing nicely. In affect your are building structure one stick or brick at a time.
> For those that did not see your previous table work vid with Zac what is seen here may be taken out of context. But i will assure Dauber, and after all he is the only one that matters when it comes to Zac they are turning into great team mates together.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see the poor dog on the *right course* is out of control and heads right for the *left dogs beat*. This is why you want a good cast off and control with quartering. It gives your dog the best chance to find game, plus it is inefficient to be running on the other side of a course that is already being worked by a flushing dog..... We dont know what happens after the video ends, and maybe the dog settled down and made a nice run. I know when similar things happen to me, I want to try to get it corrected so I can have a much more enjoyable event or hunt.
> My question for the spanielers today; is this the way to look at the cast off? Am I missing anything on the cast off? Does handler pace have any effect on pattern?
> 
> 
> 
> There is is no right-hand course or left hand course.. This is a vid of a pointing dog break- a-way
> If I was a Pointing man I would just have to laugh at the the silly flushing types trying to imitate pointing dogs.
> Being a Spaniel man it saddens me to see the owner of Cocker and the little dog humiliated in such a way.
> Now I see why program draws such aingst. If this is "fun trial' I sure hate to see what would happened if this event actually meant anything as far as breed honors go.
> For the retriever I suppose intimidation and running over the competition is one way to "win". I have judged American Complete horse back trials(Fennville, Michigan 2006 C. Vandeventer,Trial chair) and did not saw any thing quite this vulgar.
> 
> Looking forward to Spaniels: Quartering and Pattern based wind direction..


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## Steelheadfred

"Vulgar, Untrained, Poaching, Dog" 

Here:










Second from the left: KS










Michigan Wild Bird




























January on the Prairie 











I hope you two would have the same courtesy to let him know the same thing if you saw him in person. I think an apology would go a long way.


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## ESS

Nice looking pup dauber. One thing I learned from a long time trialer and Hal's occasional training partner(George) is to start them out finding bird on the first cast everytime. If you have traning partners have them put a bird in front of them and cast the dog, he will soon learn that the birds are out in front of the guns. I do this with mostly clip wings, with a flier about 10% of the time. The idea is to start the dog out with the positive reenforcement of getting a retieve with a proper cast. Without a couple of partners just plant a bird on either side of your starting point and cast the dog to one of the birds. Mix up which side you cast to first or he will start to anticipate where you will send and start to cheat.

For different wind directions the George Hickox book has some very good diagrams showing how to plant the field for the prevailing wind.

Ed


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## HD2

I use this forum for 99.9% reading purposes only. I read, in an attempt to learn information of all types; dog breeds, types of training, desired characteristics of great dogs... the list could go on. It saddens me that I involuntarily have become part of this rant. 

As you can see from the photos posted by Fritz, that "poor", "out of control" dog is mine. 

If any of you were at that trial/course you know that at the beginning of the course space is limited. It is nearly impossible to have two hard running dogs not cross paths on that course at any point and time. In all of your BREED BLINDNESS did you notice that the spaniel crossed in front of me and what seems my dogs "beat"? However, did return to its own beat, as there was only a mowed path in front of me.

My dog as seen in the video runs to an objective/cover that would hold wild birds... I do realize this is a foreign idea to you mowed path, flag running, caged bird killing egotistic maniacs

Dog runs out of gun range I have pattern tested all of my guns. Amazingly, all shot of any size travel more that 20 yards. I have owned several dogs that have run within your definition of gun range... all quarter on a line, and do an exceptional job of flushing any wild bird that is within 10 yards of the gun... you know what they called them????? MY BOOTS LACES!!!! :lol:

I hunt and train labs, that is what works for me. Many of you hunt and train spaniels, because that is what works for you. Maybe, some day I will have a interest in a slower, close working, methodical dog. A dog less capable of handling the physical stresses that a wild bird dog endures in a full season of work.

Most of you do not know me or my dogs. Please refrain from involving me in any of future "rooster" measuring contests.


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## gundogguy

ESS said:


> Nice looking pup dauber. One thing I learned from a long time trialer and Hal's occasional training partner(George) is to start them out finding bird on the first cast everytime. If you have traning partners have them put a bird in front of them and cast the dog, he will soon learn that the birds are out in front of the guns. I do this with mostly clip wings, with a flier about 10% of the time. The idea is to start the dog out with the positive reenforcement of getting a retieve with a proper cast. Without a couple of partners just plant a bird on either side of your starting point and cast the dog to one of the birds. Mix up which side you cast to first or he will start to anticipate where you will send and start to cheat.
> 
> For different wind directions the George Hickox book has some very good diagrams showing how to plant the field for the prevailing wind.
> 
> Ed


+1 Ed. Thanks for the input. George and Dee doing well. Nancy and I had a great dinner with them over Christmas.

Only a few folks remember when Hickox was a spaniel guy his book do have some fine diagrams when studying wind use


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## dauber

HD2 said:


> I use this forum for 99.9% reading purposes only. I read, in an attempt to learn information of all types; dog breeds, types of training, desired characteristics of great dogs... the list could go on. It saddens me that I involuntarily have become part of this rant.
> 
> As you can see from the photos posted by Fritz, that "poor", "out of control" dog is mine.
> 
> If any of you were at that trial/course you know that at the beginning of the course space is limited. It is nearly impossible to have two hard running dogs not cross paths on that course at any point and time. In all of your BREED BLINDNESS did you notice that the spaniel crossed in front of me and what seems my dogs "beat"? However, did return to its own beat, as there was only a mowed path in front of me.
> 
> My dog as seen in the video runs to an objective/cover that would hold wild birds... I do realize this is a foreign idea to you mowed path, flag running, caged bird killing egotistic maniacs
> 
> Dog runs out of gun range I have pattern tested all of my guns. Amazingly, all shot of any size travel more that 20 yards. I have owned several dogs that have run within your definition of gun range... all quarter on a line, and do an exceptional job of flushing any wild bird that is within 10 yards of the gun... you know what they called them????? MY BOOTS LACES!!!! :lol:
> 
> I hunt and train labs, that is what works for me. Many of you hunt and train spaniels, because that is what works for you. Maybe, some day I will have a interest in a slower, close working, methodical dog. A dog less capable of handling the physical stresses that a wild bird dog endures in a full season of work.
> 
> Most of you do not know me or my dogs. Please refrain from involving me in any of future "rooster" measuring contests.


Well sleeping giant I made a thread where you can promote your supreme style of hunting. In fact if you can read you'll see I said afterward 
"_We dont know what happens after the video ends, and maybe the dog settled down and made a nice run" _ 

Sleeping giant, also I started the vid with this 

_This next video is *not a statement on anything other than what a poor cast off looks like*. I am not knocking any type of trial, organization (my goodness I love RGS and spend considerable amounts of our treasure and time supporting RGS) or anyones dog, it is not the dogs fault anyway it is a lack of training._

If you would like to learn follow along, if not I made a CDR thread and promise to stay off it, despite how many times my back is stabbed. A talk on face wind is today, and I hope the guy with the "poor examples" today can take it.​


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## dauber

ESS said:


> Nice looking pup dauber. One thing I learned from a long time trialer and Hal's occasional training partner(George) is to start them out finding bird on the first cast everytime. If you have traning partners have them put a bird in front of them and cast the dog, he will soon learn that the birds are out in front of the guns. I do this with mostly clip wings, with a flier about 10% of the time. The idea is to start the dog out with the positive reenforcement of getting a retieve with a proper cast. Without a couple of partners just plant a bird on either side of your starting point and cast the dog to one of the birds. Mix up which side you cast to first or he will start to anticipate where you will send and start to cheat.
> 
> For different wind directions the George Hickox book has some very good diagrams showing how to plant the field for the prevailing wind.
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed! I haven't really started any formal quartering with Zac yet, so far we are just taking walks in various places and covers and I am encouraging his quartering, plus now that he is searching and smelling some I've added tossing a dummy behind. I haven't read Hickox, but do have his vids on flushing dogs which I like. Thanks again.


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## dauber

Quartering and pattern are highly dependent on wind direction. We spanielers have often heard about the windshield wiper pattern and everyone cringes and says that is useless. Some of the misconceptions no doubt come from the definition of windshield wiper. My definition is a dog running back and forth over the same ground. Here is an example of my Smoke dog not having one of his better days, covering the same ground on more than one cast. (Also having a hop on the shot!) If I remember correctly there was very little wind that day, but I think he could have been taking a bigger bite. 



 
The attached photo is scanned in from Mike Smiths book Working Springers and Cockers. This drawing is a good pattern for a face wind. You have to remember that spaniels arent setters or pointers with high head covering lots of ground beyond gun range with a job description of locating, and then pointing and holding the game until you get into gun range. Spaniels need to be in gun range, cover the ground in the beat, and flush all birds in the in the beat. Because they arent covering lots of ground they need to be very thorough. Therefore as you can be seen in Smiths drawing the dog is covering the ground well and with a face wind should be able to smell between casts. As an asidethis is one of the most effective patterns for a predator, I cant count the number of times while trapping coyotes I have seen them head into a prey area split up into their own beat and use this pattern to move in and hunt a bunny hole or deer area, always into the wind. Those of us who do any predator calling know to cover your downwind area or you will be busted most of the time. It is second nature to our dogs to want to hunt into the wind. The video of Zac I posted yesterday was into a very strong (30mph+ face wind). In training a young dog I try to mostly do face wind training when working on pattern and quartering. Here is a video of Smoke quartering into a strong face wind last summer. Ill leave it up to yous to look at his pattern on this run. 



 
What does poor quartering look like? The second attached drawing from Mike Smith is an example of poor quartering pattern. This is not only an inefficient pattern; it also leaves lots of holes where tight sitting game could be passed over. Here is a video of my Dante dog doing a variation of this pattern. 



 
Since the ground covered by a spaniel is covered so thoroughly it does not make sense to have them running outside of the beat (or range of the gun). That is ground that can be covered at a later time when you can get in range. 

Question: Does Handler pace have anything to do with pattern? Anything else to add?

Thanks for all the comments on yesterday's topic of cast off. Tomorrow I will tackle cheek and neck winds.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Quartering and pattern are highly dependent on wind direction. We spanielers have often heard about the &#8220;windshield wiper&#8221; pattern and everyone cringes and says that is useless. Some of the misconceptions no doubt come from the definition of &#8220;windshield wiper&#8221;. My definition is a dog running back and forth over the same ground. Here is an example of my Smoke dog not having one of his better days, covering the same ground on more than one cast. (Also having a hop on the shot!) If I remember correctly there was very little wind that day, but I think he could have been taking a bigger &#8220;bite&#8221;. Smoke first 9 2 12 - YouTube
> 
> The attached photo is scanned in from Mike Smith&#8217;s book Working Springers and Cockers. This drawing is a good pattern for a &#8220;face wind.&#8221; You have to remember that spaniels aren&#8217;t setters or pointers with high head covering lots of ground beyond gun range with a job description of locating, and then pointing and holding the game until you get into gun range. Spaniels need to be in gun range, cover the ground in the beat, and flush all birds in the in the beat. Because they aren&#8217;t covering lots of ground they need to be very thorough. Therefore as you can be seen in Smith&#8217;s drawing the dog is covering the ground well and with a face wind should be able to smell between casts. As an aside&#8230;this is one of the most effective patterns for a predator, I can&#8217;t count the number of times while trapping coyotes I have seen them head into a prey area split up into their own beat and use this pattern to move in and &#8220;hunt&#8221; a bunny hole or deer area, always into the wind. Those of us who do any predator calling know to cover your downwind area or you will be busted most of the time. It is second nature to our dogs to want to hunt into the wind. The video of Zac I posted yesterday was into a very strong (30mph+ face wind). In training a young dog I try to mostly do face wind training when working on pattern and quartering. Here is a video of Smoke quartering into a strong face wind last summer. I&#8217;ll leave it up to yous to look at his pattern on this run. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy6DN51WSHw
> 
> 
> Question: *Does Handler pace have anything to do with pattern?* Anything else to add?
> 
> Thanks for all the comments on yesterday's topic of cast off. Tomorrow I will tackle cheek and neck winds.



Steve Very nice your getting ready to put your shingle out!!
In reference to the 1st M Smith diagram. Handler can influence the shape of the floating trapezoid by speeding up or slowing. No whistle,voice or hand Que needed Your influence as the handler will either force the dog deeper on a narrower beat or flatter on a wider beat. Subtle changes in the way a handler carries his shoulders and/or hands with/without a gun has great influence on the dogs. Think of this,
have you ever sat thru a discussion or presentation and the primary speaker spoke in a monotone, yikes put yous to sleep..right. Handlers train in montones all the time
Same thing happens to handler/owners, will without knowing get in the trap of always running the in a 2-3 bird steady flushing drill, walking the same speed, using the whistle the same way, for dogs to really learn we have change up on em.
Look back at the Bud Clous Vid he didnot push down the beat! what did his dog do,the dog did not push down the beat. he cover the ground that the handler gave him.. Good example of influence by the handler without doing any thing other than standing still..
Remember it takes about 3yrs to build a dog in a holistic manor. Let folks that want help on this idea of quartering into the wind or face wind..Because it is important. Also there are prerequisites that the dog needs before this process should begin. Thanks Steve! Now this is fun!


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## JAM

Very nice videos, Dauber. Your dogs look great! 

I can hardly wait to get in some training sessions with you, Karen and the pups. I can see you have a lot to offer. It's difficult to find training partners that, first of all have an interest in correctly training spaniels, and then to actually know how to train them.

Keep the videos, etc. coming! I'm lovin' it!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Steve Very nice your getting ready to put your shingle out!!
> In reference to the 1st M Smith diagram. Handler can influence the shape of the floating trapezoid by speeding up or slowing. No whistle,voice or hand Que needed Your influence as the handler will either force the dog deeper on a narrower beat or flatter on a wider beat. Subtle changes in the way a handler carries his shoulders and/or hands with/without a gun has great influence on the dogs. Think of this,
> have you ever sat thru a discussion or presentation and the primary speaker spoke in a monotone, yikes put yous to sleep..right. Handlers train in montones all the time
> Same thing happens to handler/owners, will without knowing get in the trap of always running the in a 2-3 bird steady flushing drill, walking the same speed, using the whistle the same way, for dogs to really learn we have change up on em.
> Look back at the Bud Clous Vid he didnot push down the beat! what did his dog do,the dog did not push down the beat. he cover the ground that the handler gave him.. Good example of influence by the handler without doing any thing other than standing still..
> Remember it takes about 3yrs to build a dog in a holistic manor. Let folks that want help on this idea of quartering into the wind or face wind..Because it is important. Also there are prerequisites that the dog needs before this process should begin. Thanks Steve! Now this is fun!


Thanks Hal and great comments. I have made all of those errors too many times. That has been one of the benifits of having myself videoed, it sticks out like a sore thumb. 

No shingle here...just trying to share the thimble full of things learned over lots of years of dogging, and watching and listening to other top doggers such as yourself. 



JAM said:


> Very nice videos, Dauber. Your dogs look great!
> 
> I can hardly wait to get in some training sessions with you, Karen and the pups. I can see you have a lot to offer. It's difficult to find training partners that, first of all have an interest in correctly training spaniels, and then to actually know how to train them.
> 
> Keep the videos, etc. coming! I'm lovin' it!


Calm down JAM:lol: This is just about everything I know...kind of like wringing out the washcloth, just wringed out every last drop I know. But one thing for sure is we do have fun every training session even when they don't go well, since all that tells us is we have more to work on in the training field, and I really enjoy the training.

Now off for a bunny hunt...wish the wind chill was above 0 though. Bunnies should be sitting on the sunny side of the tree though


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## JAM

Good luck hunting, Team Dauber!


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## HD2

As stated before, I read. I do not like to post. Somehow from this, you have decided I want to "promote your supreme style of hunting" (these are your words... seemingly pulled out of thin air as they appear no where in my post.) 

You seem to have trouble with the idea that there are dog breeds other than the spaniel to hunt behind. And take it very personal when some states that they like to hunt behind a breed other than yours.

I will state my main points again.

"I hunt and train labs, that is what works for me." 

"Many of you hunt and train spaniels, because that is what works for you."

"Most of you do not know me or my dogs. Please refrain from involving me in any of future "rooster" measuring contests"


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## gundogguy

"How to train your own Gun dog" By Charles S. Goodall
Photo of a future Hall of Fame Spaniel trainer giving his young charge a prerequisite training session before going to the field for a quartering and steadying lesson. (about 1975). Hint.. Still alive and running dogs for a living,85 yrs young
Any body care to mention who the trainer is in the photo?

If you recall it like the same kind of work Steve and Zac were doing doing
together.


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> "How to train your own Gun dog" By Charles S. Goodall
> Photo of a future Hall of Fame Spaniel trainer giving his young charge a prerequisite training session before going to the field for a quartering and steadying lesson. (about 1975). Hint.. Still alive and running dogs for a living,85 yrs young
> Any body care to mention who the trainer is in the photo?
> 
> If you recall it like the same kind of work Steve and Zac were doing doing
> together.


OK. I'll bite. Is that Dan Langhans?


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## michgundog

JAM said:


> OK. I'll bite. Is that Dan Langhans?


I agree with JAM. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## gundogguy

Right on! Jam And Michgundog You guys are sharp you can't be fooled when you see the real Mccoy at work. The Dean of Harvard Ill. Absolutely number one Pro of the 20th Century. More champions made, more wins, more placements than any other pro in the Spaniel game. Started in the Mid 60's he and his wife Marie still going strong..
He was Chair for Last years Open and still ran dog thru 4 series...


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Right on! Jam And Michgundog You guys are sharp you can't be fooled when you see the real Mccoy at work. The Dean of Harvard Ill. Absolutely number one Pro of the 20th Century. More champions made, more wins, more placements than any other pro in the Spaniel game. Started in the Mid 60's he and his wife Marie still going strong..
> He was Chair for Last years Open and still ran dog thru 4 series...


He's the spaniel equivalent of JoePa or Michael Jordan. He's an amazing guy for sure. More proof spaniels will give a person a long and happy life. Didn't Roy French live to be 103??

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## hehibrits

michgundog said:


> He's the spaniel equivalent of JoePa or Michael Jordan. He's an amazing guy for sure. More proof spaniels will give a person a long and happy life. Didn't Roy French live to be 103??
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


JoePa? Does he have kennel help that showers with the puppies???


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## michgundog

hehibrits said:


> JoePa? Does he have kennel help that showers with the puppies???
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good one. Yup too bad he tarnished his good name by covering up for some POS!

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

Now we are getting to the fun stuff for us spanielers! Here is where as Hal says we start to separate the wheat from the chafe. 

Take a look at the first attachment below Q5 from Mike Smiths book Working Springers and Cockers. This is a slight left cheek or cross wind. As you can see in Q5 this is a 5-10 degree change in direction. My experience has been that most dogs have little trouble with this. I couldnt find a good video example of this but being that spaniels have been bred to quarter into the wind they tend to make the slight adjustment in stride. 

Now as the cheek wind turns more to the side notice Smiths drawing Q6. How many of yous thought this was going to be the ideal pattern for a strong left cheek wind? Here is a video of my Dante sort-of running a left cheek wind pattern. 



 
Here is a question I have on handling with a cheek wind; do you hold up and give the dog a chance to work the piece of ground then move up for the next piece? This is what makes sense to me, but I dont recall ever being taught to do this (at least in the last week or two and that is about as long as I can remember anything). Most of my dogs have trouble preforming the Q6 pattern exactly as drawn; they usually have more of a banana type pattern. I am wondering if this is partly because I tend to keep moving not giving the dog a chance to complete it. 

Now take a look at Smiths neck or downwind drawing Q7. This is the classic downwind course. Why not just avoid this, there is always the chance the game will be flushed out at the farthest point and leave you with a long shot at best. Well when out hunting if you go out into the wind, ya gotta get back and might as well hunt. In fact I often head out with a neck wind leaving an area for the birds or game to move into where we can have them trapped on the way back with a face wind. Here is a vid of Dante running in a slight neck wind. Yes he did hop and I probably should have picked up the retrieve myself, but notice his pattern. 



 
Like the cheek wind the question is do you as handler use more of a let the dog work out and quarter back, then move up again?
These werent as nice and neat neck wind patterns as Smith has drawn in Q7. I see this is an area for improvement in both of the adults and plan on spending some time working on these different wind directions. Now you can see why we spend the amount of time that we do in the training field trying to teach, then brush up an efficient, effective pattern be it for trials or tests, or in my case mostly hunting.

Tomorrow I hope to touch on training for the different wind directions. Yesterdays comments on handler speed by Hal were very interesting.


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## Gavan

trying to recreate patterns I see in books. In my opinion the purpose of proper wind use is to cover the ground with the dogs cheek to the wind in the most efficient manner. In field trials there is a premium on not physically recovering the same ground with the dog. In the real world with varying scenting conditions and nose (talent and experience) a hunter may recover the same ground if he thinks the dog has indicated something and not produced it.
There is some controversy currently in the springer field trial game about artificial patterns created by bucket or barrel training. In some cases the pattern doesn't change much when the wind changes. As a judge, and a hunter, I have a problem with artificial patterns. In normal scenting conditions they tend to be less efficient than allowing an experienced bird finder to use his/her nose. However, in bad scenting conditions the artificial pattern will find birds by physical presence that other approaches may not. 
Puppy patterns are often the same in that springer pups are typically trained to run gun to gun and find planted or rolled in pigeons. Pigeons don't move much from where they are planted so the dog runs back and forth until they either run into the bird physically or smell it and flush it. This doesn't totally prepare the puppy for finding wild birds or pheasants that often move off the nest.
These artificial patterns are a part of the foundation of the dogs training but the "pattern" that will become the finished dogs way of covering the ground efficiently and finding birds is developed through experience and is partly genetic. The handler's preferences are part of the equation as well. Some pups take to quartering right from the welping box but struggle in a downwind and take lots of experience to develop an acceptable downwind pattern. Some want to run loops and will make the handler look silly trying to force a particular pattern especially in a crosswind. In my experience each dog is a little different but, the key is to develop an efficient way of covering the ground as a dog/handler team. By efficient I mean not needlessly recovering the ground with the dogs nose (capability on a given day) and not running so tight to the handler that you end up herding the birds up the field or woods without finding them quickly.
In a nutshell a spaniels purpose is to find birds and to do that they should run with the wind on their cheek and rarely cover the same ground with their nose unless they have struck scent and are trying to puzzle it out. A good spaniels "pattern" will be evident when it efficiently produces game in a certain set of circumstances on a given day. You will know it when you see it and you will rarely see it in a book except in the most basic and rudimentary sense. This is an interesting topic and thanks for bringing it up.


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> trying to recreate patterns I see in books. In my opinion the purpose of proper wind use is to cover the ground with the dogs cheek to the wind in the most efficient manner. In field trials there is a premium on not physically recovering the same ground with the dog. In the real world with varying scenting conditions and nose (talent and experience) a hunter may recover the same ground if he thinks the dog has indicated something and not produced it.
> There is some controversy currently in the springer field trial game about artificial patterns created by bucket or barrel training. In some cases the pattern doesn't change much when the wind changes. As a judge, and a hunter, I have a problem with artificial patterns. In normal scenting conditions they tend to be less efficient than allowing an experienced bird finder to use his/her nose. However, in bad scenting conditions the artificial pattern will find birds by physical presence that other approaches may not.
> Puppy patterns are often the same in that springer pups are typically trained to run gun to gun and find planted or rolled in pigeons. Pigeons don't move much from where they are planted so the dog runs back and forth until they either run into the bird physically or smell it and flush it. This doesn't totally prepare the puppy for finding wild birds or pheasants that often move off the nest.
> *These artificial patterns are a part of the foundation of the dogs training but the "pattern" that will become the finished dogs way of covering the ground efficiently and finding birds is developed through experience and is partly genetic. The handler's preferences are part of the equation as well*. Some pups take to quartering right from the welping box but struggle in a downwind and take lots of experience to develop an acceptable downwind pattern. Some want to run loops and will make the handler look silly trying to force a particular pattern especially in a crosswind. In my experience each dog is a little different but, the key is to develop an efficient way of covering the ground as a dog/handler team. By efficient I mean not needlessly recovering the ground with the dogs nose (capability on a given day) and not running so tight to the handler that you end up herding the birds up the field or woods without finding them quickly.
> *In a nutshell a spaniels purpose is to find birds and to do that they should run with the wind on their cheek and rarely cover the same ground with their nose unless they have struck scent and are trying to puzzle it out. A good spaniels "pattern" will be evident when it efficiently produces game in a certain set of circumstances on a given day. You will know it when you see it and you will rarely see it in a book except in the most basic and rudimentary sense.* This is an interesting topic and thanks for bringing it up.


Thanks Gavan, your insight is always appreciated. I understand that drawings have some limitations, but many people who aren't spaniel types or are newer to spaniels have no idea what a good pattern is and thru the drawings they are able to get a feel for the dogs path keeping it's cheek into the wind in differing directions. I absolutly agree that I don't like to see a face wind pattern in a cross or downwind beat. That is one of the points I was trying to get across with the various drawings. Also you get no argument from me that the initial training doesn't totally prepare a puppy for a wild bird, but again with these tools in the toolbox in my experience dogs with a little ability learn pretty quickly when put into those situations from being taught to learn thru controlled experiences.

My Dante dog (the blonde one) is one of those circle pattern dogs, no doubt why he was available for me to buy at 3 yrs old from a trialer. It has taken me much pattern work in the trianing field to get him moving out better, but he always reverts back to the circles sooner or latter. 

The black bolded part is excellent Gavan, thanks, that covers what I wanted to say next, but much better than I no doubt would have. All of these drawings I attached from Smith's book are the very basic beginner lessons for a spaniel. In my experience having these types of "tools" taught give the dog the best chance to develop their own pattern and style, also it gives you a way to "tune up" a more experienced dog. 

The red bolded part is equally excellent, again thanks for summing it up so well. I was going to let people hang a bit longer, but that says it very well! Thanks Gavan.


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## Gavan

and thanks for bringing it up. The patterns that are shown in the books are a good start for folks and their puppies or older dogs where the handler wants to get more control and run a more disciplined wind pattern of some kind. 
Also, I run my dogs through the buckets for structured exercise and to work on control and I fixed a "turning back" problem with one dog with just a little work on the buckets. They do have some utility and are good way to exercise your dog without taking them out and turning them loose to run around as they see fit. They might be something to consider for improvement in a looper or circler kind of dog. For example a pup who wants to turn back on one side all the time probably wants to just run loops instead of always turning up into the wind in a figure 8 pattern. Hope I'm not confusing the issue.


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## Gavan

to the origin of the thread before posting the first time. My favored upwind pattern is a Figure 8. If it is run wide enough to put the dog outside the gun on both sides the dog can smell the whole beat and by advancing up the course while turning on both sides does so more efficiently. You can cover the ground faster and by expending less energy.
The answer to your question about whether the pace of the handler affects the dog's pattern.... is .....ABSOLUTELY! That one deserves an entire thread of it's own.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Gavan said:


> The answer to your question about whether the pace of the handler affects the dog's pattern.... is .....ABSOLUTELY! That one deserves an entire thread of it's own.


1X to that. 

Will weigh in more after dinner.

NB


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> to the origin of the thread before posting the first time. My favored upwind pattern is a Figure 8. If it is run wide enough to put the dog outside the gun on both sides the dog can smell the whole beat and by advancing up the course while turning on both sides does so more efficiently. You can cover the ground faster and by expending less energy.
> The answer to your question about whether the pace of the handler affects the dog's pattern.... is .....*ABSOLUTELY! That one deserves an entire thread of it's own.*




+!1! to that Gavan Thanks for sharing! Handler pace is a delightful subject.
Yikes look at the time stamp on my post and Natty's 5:35 we did not colaborate


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> and thanks for bringing it up. The patterns that are shown in the books are a good start for folks and their puppies or older dogs where the handler wants to get more control and run a more disciplined wind pattern of some kind.
> Also, I run my dogs through the buckets for structured exercise and to work on control and I fixed a "turning back" problem with one dog with just a little work on the buckets. They do have some utility and are good way to exercise your dog without taking them out and turning them loose to run around as they see fit. They might be something to consider for improvement in a looper or circler kind of dog. For example a pup who wants to turn back on one side all the time probably wants to just run loops instead of always turning up into the wind in a figure 8 pattern. Hope I'm not confusing the issue.


Thank you, your input is outstanding Gavan. That is one of the tools we use to get the looper Dante moving out better. 



Gavan said:


> to the origin of the thread before posting the first time. My favored upwind pattern is a Figure 8. If it is run wide enough to put the dog outside the gun on both sides the dog can smell the whole beat and by advancing up the course while turning on both sides does so more efficiently. You can cover the ground faster and by expending less energy.
> The answer to your question about whether the pace of the handler affects the dog's pattern.... is .....ABSOLUTELY! That one deserves an entire thread of it's own.


Again a big thanks! I had forgot about the figure 8 and funny thing is this afternoon out bunnying my Smoke dog was running it while were going downwind. Pace is another one of those things at times hunting I forget about, with it fresh in my mind today when I gave him a chance he ran the fig 8 well. Again giving him a chance he ran the cross wind well too. 

Thanks for your input Gavan.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> [/B]
> 
> +!1! to that Gavan Thanks for sharing! Handler pace is a delightful subject.
> Yikes look at the time stamp on my post and Natty's 5:35 we did not colaborate


Well Gee Whizz, Hal. I'm blushing as I say this, but you know what they do say about "Great Minds running in the same track" . 

Or Maybe its just "Spaniel ESP"

I agree, Handler Pace is a great topic and I think the Bud Close vid maybe partially illustrates that, although that wasnt its intent at all.

Afraid I can't add one thing to the discussion of teaching a specific pattern to a spaniel for trialing purposes. Unfortunately, no spaniel training groups within several hours of here. Only coonhounds and Labs. Kinda the same thing to me.:evilsmile

Out West, where there is a noticable wind almost all the time, I try avoid going on a straight downwind beat. Pheasants are very sensitive to foreign sounds anyway and they dont need any additional advantage!! Usually cut around crosswind and then come back to the truck downwind. Many places we hunt you can drive around to the other side anyway.

Look forward to more discussion on the topic tho.

NB


----------



## Gavan

hunter pace yesterday morning while guiding some hunters at Hillendale. One older gentleman, who has a knee replacement scheduled, asked me to slow down since my pace was too fast and he was having trouble keeping up. I attempted to explain that I wasn't setting the pace to no avail. First, I always keep my hunters in a straight line and lag a few feet behind so I don't get in the line of fire so how could I be setting too fast a pace? These occasional hunters don't understand the affect their presence has on the dog or the birds for that matter. I explained that if they wanted the dog to slow down then they should slow down.
We all need to slow down and key off the dog and let that miraculous nose and bird sense do it's work. I learned many years ago from Jeff Brooks to walk when the dog is heading away and not looking, and stop when the dog is coming in or looking at the handler when running a downwind. Your body language, position, and walking pace have a major impact on your dog.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> hunter pace yesterday morning while guiding some hunters at Hillendale. One older gentleman, who has a knee replacement scheduled, asked me to slow down since my pace was too fast and he was having trouble keeping up. I attempted to explain that I wasn't setting the pace to no avail. First, I* always keep my hunters in a straight line and lag a few feet behind so I don't get in the line of fire so how could I be setting too fast a pace? These occasional hunters don't understand the affect their presence has on the dog or the birds for that *matter. I explained that if they wanted the dog to slow down then they should slow down.
> We all need to slow down and key off the dog and let that miraculous nose and bird sense do it's work. I learned many years ago from Jeff Brooks* to walk when the dog is heading away and not looking, and stop when the dog is coming in or looking at the handler when running a downwind. Your body language, position, and walking pace have a major impact on your dog.*




+1 Gavan Thanks for covering that After guiding some 4000 hunters at 4 different shoots I could write a book on that 1st emphasied quote. Unfortunately the hunting crowd would not buy it...the anti's would though:evil::evil:

The old spaniel expression "Go with your dog" is what applies here when your dog takes a bigger bite ..move... when swings back in on the lateral...wait... If he sees you moving you could possible interrupt his hunt..If you do not move you could interrupt your opportunity for a shot!
Go with your dog


----------



## dauber

Some great comments on quartering, pattern and pace after yesterday&#8217;s post! Today I would like to touch on some of the training I have used. By all means others who know much more than I please post your thoughts. We have pretty much wrung my brain out of knowledge over the last few days. 

One wind we didn't cover was no wind. This is where teaching quartering gun to gun will really shine. The dog that knows it's job quartering will make a good thorough search and out produce dogs that don't.

I was taught to start the pup out with a heavy dose of head or face wind work to bring out the natural quartering pattern of many spaniels, for a reminder you have to go back a few days to the first post on quartering when we discussed face winds. The way I learned to start a pup that is retrieving quite reliably is to use &#8220;the shake and bake&#8221;. This is discussed in the book HUP by Spencer pretty well. It really helps to have some experienced spaniel people teach you how to go about doing this. It doesn&#8217;t take too many times for a spaniel to really start getting the quartering pattern and hunting for the gun going. I won&#8217;t go any farther here since then it becomes a dog to dog case and you need to react to how the dog acts. The point is to keep the dog hunting out in front of you, using their nose to efficiently cover the ground. By keeping it a head/face wind the dog will naturally hunt gun to gun and you want them smelling game out in front so they turn up into the wind. I try to keep the wind mostly in my face other than maybe a slight quartering wind until after having steadied them. My goal is to get them most comfortable as Gavan says running with the wind to their cheek. 

I have watched some of the bucket work that Gavan brought up yesterday on video from Jim Keller, but have never done it myself. Gavan covered it pretty well yesterday on how to use this technique to assist in patterning. 

When you start training for these things remember the &#8220;cast off&#8221; and train for it every time you start, sit pup facing you, and if the wind is crossing at all send pup off on the downwind cast first. 

Pace was mentioned a few times and again this can get pretty detailed and could be a longer topic too. Much of what I have learned about this is from experimenting while out in the training field. It is very interesting to see how the dog&#8217;s pattern adjusts to your actions as handler, maybe much more than all the whistles and commands.

That about does it for me on this topic. This was a 100 level course on quartering and pattern, we were fortunate to have Gundogguy and Gavan give us some 300 level and a little post grad info too. I would like to leave you with one of my sayings; &#8220;I can&#8217;t remember ever coming back from a day hunting and say Boy, my dog is too well trained&#8221;. Thanks to all who have followed along and thanks for all the good comments and discussion, I have gained much from this.


----------



## gundogguy

[*B]Quartering and pattern is kind of like money, it&#8217;s only important to the degree you do not have any. In and of itself it is a behavior that the dog needs to possess to assist in finding the bird and thus produce it to the gun within range! The process of training develops the responsiveness in the dog to change direction either intuitively or with aid of whistle or voice. Remember dogs that are involved in this type of training have more going on in their lives than just running back and forth in front of the guns. Steadiness, delivery to hand, so on The handler challenge is to recognize what ground was covered and what ground has been left uncovered as you move the dog down field.

When the behavior of steadiness enters the picture a dogs and handlers life together changes dramatically. New standards are forged and a new relation is established. If the basics have been seamlessly install the process is one of many victories for both dog and owner.
*[/B]


Two young lads develop patiently waiting for "orders" from HQ


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## gundogguy

* <h3>Normally with my own dogs I really do not concern myself with dog pattern prior to steadying to wing and shot. The steadying process can present all kinds of challenges, and many can be counter intuitive to resuming a good pattern for a period of time. As well as in the area of marking the fall of a shot flyer. It is also during this time that marking skills are developed. A dog that has not been steadied does not mark the fall, it merely chases the bird down. And there is a difference. If the chase 20yards or 200yards it is merely chasing not marking. True marking ability can only come from being steadied. For me to have steadied the dog, it would have shown some strong natural tendencys to cover ground properly in the first place, pace, range, flush.*


</h3> *If you train for total confidence, your program will be successful. If you train for total compliance your program will ultimately fail*

*Mike Gould The Labrador Shooting Dog page 103*



Photo ...Tamm totally confident and at ease making the mark on a shot flyer


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> *<h3>Normally with my own dogs I really do not concern myself with dog pattern prior to steadying to wing and shot. The steadying process can present all kinds of challenges, and many can be counter intuitive to resuming a good pattern for a period of time. As well as in the area of marking the fall of a shot flyer. It is also during this time that marking skills are developed. A dog that has not been steadied does not mark the fall, it merely chases the bird down. And there is a difference. If the chase 20yards or 200yards it is merely chasing not marking. True marking ability can only come from being steadied. For me to have steadied the dog, it would have shown some strong natural tendencys to cover ground properly in the first place, pace, range, flush.*
> 
> 
> </h3> *If you train for total confidence, your program will be successful. If you train for total compliance your program will ultimately fail*
> 
> *Mike Gould The Labrador Shooting Dog page 103*
> 
> 
> Photo ...Tamm totally confident and at ease making the mark on a shot flyer


Good info Hal. Steadying has many benefits for the future hunting spaniel. What do you see as the prerequisites to start steadying? By this I am thinking along the lines of having the hup down cold to voice and whistle, line steady on the retrieve, gun proofed.anything else?

Goulds statement is sure spot on! That is the whole basis for spaniel training, keep em confident and preforming the complex tasks efficiently, effectively and happily, its a thing of beauty to be a part of. Just like a football quarterback and his receivers spend much time doing drills and walk thrus then spend time themselves working on timing so that when they do get to game day they make it look easy. Ive yet to see a losing teams coach come out after the game and say we spent *too much* time and effort on the fundamentals, if you build a good solid foundation in your training, you have the opportunity to build a real nice house that will last a long time. If your foundation is weak it doesnt matter how nice your house is, it wont last long.


----------



## gundogguy

The last two posts that placed on the board, the 1st 2 photo's and 2nd with 1 photo, those were hunter companion dogs. Neither of the three ever ran in an licensed or sanctioned event. But in the training process they were all given the chance to become all they could be. All three dogs were just a lot of fun to train and to go hunting with..
Dauber I'm not forgetting your questions but I'm a bit press for time...have to pay the Amish mafia a visit. Hopefully someone will also give the reason for steadying and when to and so on. If not, I'll be glad to bore the masses with information..


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## yooperguy

Guys - I have to say. I'm doing the best I can to absorb all the great training information and tips. I'm enjoying reading this thread and envisioning putting them into practice. I've never been around people who speak fluent dog traineze before. Lots of concepts and techniques to consider.

Also just started reading HUP! by Spencer. I reached the point in the book last night where he says to "take some time to think about what I've said. Put the book down and play with the puppy for the rest of the night."

I'm glad that part was in there...

Thanks to the contributors of this thread. This type of online discussion forumn wasn't available at the time of owning my first ESS.

Carry on...


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## gundogguy

"The only degree of steadiness that is essential is such as will
ensure that the dog does not spoil the shot and will not, by
retrieving without orders, put up other game out of shot range or
while the gun is unloaded. The best way to achieve this is to
train your dog to drop to the flush of game and also drop to shot."
Talbot Radcliffe "Spaniels For Sport

American anecdote:" One of the most important requirements of a good gun dog is that he
be steady to shot and wing.
For those not familiar with the terminology, steadiness to shot and
wing means that the dog will stop dead in his tracks and sit ("hup") at the
instant that a bird is flushed or that a gun is discharged. The reasons for
requiring a dog to react in this manner are both useful and practical. The
following factual account of a South Dakota hunting trip illustrates the
reason most vividly.
The hunting party in question was undertaken by three sportsmen
who owned well-trained Spaniels and who were persuaded at the last
minute to include the owner of an unsteady Spaniel in the party. When the
group arrived in South Dakota and entered the first corn field, which was
fairly alive with pheasants, the dogs were ordered to heel and the four
hunters and their dogs proceeded down the corn rows about ten yards
apart. About halfway through the field, one of the dogs dived through two
rows of corn to flush a smart old cock that had squatted under some light
cover, hoping that the hunters would pass him by. The bird flushed in front
of the hunters and was dropped immediately by the center gun. The three
steady dogs dropped to shot ("hupped") to await orders, while the unsteady
Springer headed toward the "fall" to make the retrieve without command.
He overran the "fall", proceeded down the field, and bumped into another
pheasant which flushed immediately. He gave chase and within three
minutes had flushed perhaps forty pheasants out of the corn, none of which
came within gun range of the four hunters. No one had too much to say to
the owner of the breaking dog, but a great deal of silent swearing took
place.
Some of the birds that had been flushed were marked down in a slough
about a half mile away. The four gunners headed in that direction with their
dogs at heel. Upon entering the slough, which was a large one, all dogs were
ordered to "Hi-on". As luck would have it, the unsteady dog flushed the
first bird and took off on a wild chase. His actions again caused all the birds
in the slough except one lone hen to flush out of gun range, and not one
shot was fired, though a hundred or more birds had been in the vicinity of the hunters in the corn field and the slough.
A council of war was held immediately and, by vote of three to one, the
unsteady dog was banished to the security of the automobile for the remainder of the hunt."
Charles S Goodall "The Complete English Springer Spaniel"
Have Fun! Hie-on!


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Guys - I have to say. I'm doing the best I can to absorb all the great training information and tips. I'm enjoying reading this thread and envisioning putting them into practice. I've never been around people who speak fluent dog traineze before. Lots of concepts and techniques to consider.
> 
> Also just started reading HUP! by Spencer. I reached the point in the book last night where he says to "take some time to think about what I've said. Put the book down and play with the puppy for the rest of the night."
> 
> I'm glad that part was in there...
> 
> Thanks to the contributors of this thread. This type of online discussion forumn wasn't available at the time of owning my first ESS.
> 
> Carry on...


Thanks for reading along. My training regimen with Zacster has been 3 minutes of either retrieve, come, or hup trianing and most the rest of the time is play. The 3 minutes of training is all fun too, no pressure at all.


----------



## dauber

I have a similar story except it was my own dog. Mrs D and I were working a series of hedges out west pheasant hunting, maybe 3 miles total. The way it usually worked for us was the pheasants usually ran the first 3/4th mile to a small gap in the hedge, on this day one of our dogs flushed a hen maybe a few hundred yards in, chased her along the hedge cleaning out that segment. After getting him back we had to make the decision to keep going, or give up. We kept going and that was where all the pheasants were that day. That was when we decided our dogs were going to be steadied. Don't get me wrong, they will break at times, but at least I have the tools to stop them, make the correction, and not cause up 3 mile walks for nothing. 

A few years ago we were working a hedge with Dante when he flushed a fork horn buck. He did sit came in when called, then we proceeded to watch the little buck trot along the hedge flushing rooster after rooster, each time he would stop look back at us, then carry on and flush some more. We joked..should have had him in our training too:lol:.


----------



## gundogguy

Very little information, due to security i imagine. The Champs were held at the Queen of England country estate. very few photos and only tight shots from what has been published...Any one on the forum ever been to or seen Camp David outside of DC.
Winner is 
Will Clulee's FTCH Moelfamau Griffin 2nd photo


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Very little information, due to security i imagine. The Champs were held at the Queen of England country estate. very few photos and only tight shots from what has been published...Any one on the forum ever been to or seen Camp David outside of DC.
> Winner is
> Will Clulee's FTCH Moelfamau Griffin 2nd photo


Yes it was tough to follow this one, and not much for pictures. Griffin is a good looker!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> What do you see as the prerequisites to start steadying? By this I am thinking along the lines of having the hup down cold to voice and whistle, line steady on the retrieve, gun proofed.*anything else?*
> 
> Goulds statement is sure spot on! That is the whole basis for spaniel training, keep em confident and preforming the complex tasks efficiently, effectively and happily, its a thing of beauty to be a part of. Just like a football quarterback and his receivers spend much time doing drills and walk thrus then spend time themselves working on timing so that when they do get to game day they make it look easy. Ive yet to see a losing teams coach come out after the game and say we spent *too much* time and effort on the fundamentals, if you build a good solid foundation in your training, you have the opportunity to build a real nice house that will last a long time. *If your foundation is weak it doesnt matter how nice your house is, it wont last long.*





*?Anything else?* When enter in to the Steadying process it is essential to understand where your dogs head is at..is he a fire breathing maniac or a cool and calm calculator, many aspects of dog development can be attributed to naturally occurring phenomenons. i.e. high retrieve drive, strong desires to interact with people intuitive quartering behaviors and so on.. But manners around the flush and shot is something totally human. No dog born comes with this behavior, it is one that has to be learned. One can use force on a dog during the force breaking process in the development of a proper retrieve...Breaking to wing and shot can *NOT* be done with that kind of force with the flushing Spaniel..The use of any form of force better be well understood before you begin this process. Force at the wrong time or wrong amounts you will no longer have a Flushing Spaniel. You must have a plan and you must work the plan
Remember all, it is a brick at a time slow and steady as you go. You must have a good foundation to build that big structure on..


----------



## gundogguy

yooperguy2003 said:


> Guys - I have to say. I'm doing the best I can to absorb all the great training information and tips. I'm enjoying reading this thread and envisioning putting them into practice. I've never been around people who speak fluent dog traineze before. Lots of concepts and techniques to consider.
> 
> Also just started reading *HUP! by Spencer*. I reached the point in the book last night where he says to "take some time to think about what I've said. Put the book down and play with the puppy for the rest of the night."
> 
> 
> 
> Carry on...


Does Spencer write about using Natural situations in helping your pup understand quartering.
for example:

Here is one of the natural controls we have talked about, so
use it to your best advantage. Dogs don't like to run directly into
the wind. When you work your pup into the wind, he will start
quartering so he won't have to encounter the wind directly.
He will hunt from side to side to avoid the straight-on wind
and he will hunt side to side. Because of your influence, before
you know it, your pup will be quartering just like a pro with no
formal controls whatsoever. If you find yourself working
downwind, you will notice your dog casting straight away and
then returning straight back. Straight out, straight in, straight out,
straight in. This is an awful hunting pattern and it's your fault, not your dogs.
Mike Gould "The Labrador Shooting Dog" page 130

Try to always run your pup into the wind it will help later as you and she develop. This is an Spaniel training method for say the last 300yrs


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

yooperguy2003 said:


> Guys - I have to say. I'm doing the best I can to absorb all the great training information and tips. I'm enjoying reading this thread and envisioning putting them into practice. I've never been around people who speak fluent dog traineze before. Lots of concepts and techniques to consider.
> 
> Also just started reading HUP! by Spencer. I reached the point in the book last night where he says to "take some time to think about what I've said. Put the book down and play with the puppy for the rest of the night."
> 
> I'm glad that part was in there...
> 
> Thanks to the contributors of this thread. This type of online discussion forumn wasn't available at the time of owning my first ESS.
> 
> Carry on...


1X YG. Well said. This "Spaniel Corner" is a Gold Mine of information. Glad you found this thread and can learn from it.

In my case, I came late to spaniels. I knew quite a bit about training Britts but almost nothing about FDs. There were no training groups within hours of here; still aren't. Spaniels were almost never discussed on the Upland Forum, except in passing. So I bot a couple of books and watched a few videos and made training mistakes with my first dog. Did better with the second.

So I want to say a BIG THANKS to Hal and all of the other frequent contributors. I won't try to name the others because I'll miss somebody for sure, but you know who you are. WELL DONE, Spanielers.

NB


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> 1X YG. Well said. This "Spaniel Corner" is a Gold Mine of information. Glad you found this thread and can learn from it.
> 
> In my case, I came late to spaniels. I knew quite a bit about training Britts but almost nothing about FDs. There were no training groups within hours of here; still aren't. Spaniels were almost never discussed on the Upland Forum, except in passing. So I bot a couple of books and watched a few videos and made training mistakes with my first dog. Did better with the second.
> 
> So I want to say a BIG THANKS to Hal and all of the other frequent contributors. I won't try to name the others because I'll miss somebody for sure, but you know who you are. WELL DONE, Spanielers.
> 
> NB
> 
> NB


Right on nattyB, I agree!

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Thanks for reading along. My training regimen with Zacster has been 3 minutes of either retrieve, come, or hup trianing and most the rest of the time is play. The 3 minutes of training is all fun too, no pressure at all.


Well now that's something that I can use for starters. I knew that training sessions should be short. 3 minutes sounded surprisingly short to this beginner. 
I'm not challenging it mind you. Call it a pleasant surprise. I can use that kind of info right now. It helps to take away some of the pervasive thoughts like "crap - there's so much I don't know and I don't have much time!" 






gundogguy said:


> Does Spencer write about using Natural situations in helping your pup understand quartering.
> for example:
> 
> Here is one of the natural controls we have talked about, so
> use it to your best advantage. Dogs don't like to run directly into
> the wind. When you work your pup into the wind, he will start
> quartering so he won't have to encounter the wind directly.
> He will hunt from side to side to avoid the straight-on wind
> and he will hunt side to side. Because of your influence, before
> you know it, your pup will be quartering just like a pro with no
> formal controls whatsoever. If you find yourself working
> downwind, you will notice your dog casting straight away and
> then returning straight back. Straight out, straight in, straight out,
> straight in. This is an awful hunting pattern and it's your fault, not your dogs.
> Mike Gould "The Labrador Shooting Dog" page 130
> 
> Try to always run your pup into the wind it will help later as you and she develop. This is an Spaniel training method for say the last 300yrs


I wish I could say if Spencer writes about using natural situations. I'm not very far into the book yet. His advise at the point I'm at is to read the whole book before starting anything. I was glad to read that. Because I'm sure it'll help me. 

What you quoted from Gould makes sense to me. If Spencer does write about it, it'll sound familiar and an "ah ha" will surely occur. 


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Well now that's something that I can use for starters. I knew that training sessions should be short. 3 minutes sounded surprisingly short to this beginner.
> I'm not challenging it mind you. Call it a pleasant surprise. I can use that kind of info right now. It helps to take away some of the pervasive thoughts like "crap - there's so much I don't know and I don't have much time!"


3 minutes is my attention span I do 3 minutes 3 times a day. I read a book once titled something like the 10 minute retriever by the Dahl's. They talked about how you could train a retriever in 10 minutes training sessions. Enjoy that pup YG.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> [/B]
> *?Anything else?* When enter in to the Steadying process it is essential to understand where your dogs head is at..is he a fire breathing maniac or a cool and calm calculator, many aspects of dog development can be attributed to naturally occurring phenomenons. i.e. high retrieve drive, strong desires to interact with people intuitive quartering behaviors and so on.. But manners around the flush and shot is something totally human. No dog born comes with this behavior, it is one that has to be learned. One can use force on a dog during the force breaking process in the development of a proper retrieve...Breaking to wing and shot can *NOT* be done with that kind of force with the flushing Spaniel..The use of any form of force better be well understood before you begin this process. Force at the wrong time or wrong amounts you will no longer have a Flushing Spaniel. You must have a plan and you must work the plan
> Remember all, it is a brick at a time slow and steady as you go. You must have a good foundation to build that big structure on..


That is some good stuff Hal! Now if only I can follow it:yikes:.


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## J-Lee

This thread has been a great introduction to flushing spaniels. It is full of good info, thanks to all of you who have shared your knowledge and experience. It has made me take a serious look at these little dogs.


----------



## ESS

Speaking short sessions, I keep mine short even with older dogs. I was at a seminar with one of Roy French's pros and one thing I took away from it was to keep the runs short, one or two flags down the field, especially when it's warm. His reasoning was that the dog stays focussed without getting winded and breathing through their mouth which results in poor scenting from the dog. This is training not conditioning.

When I started doing his many of the problems I was having with steadying started to go away. 


Ed


----------



## dauber

ESS said:


> Speaking short sessions, *I keep mine short even with older dogs*. I was at a seminar with one of Roy French's pros and one thing I took away from it was to keep the runs short, one or two flags down the field, especially when it's warm. His reasoning was that the dog stays focussed without getting winded and breathing through their mouth which results in poor scenting from the dog. *This is training not conditioning*.
> 
> When I started doing his many of the problems I was having with steadying started to go away.
> Ed


x1 Ed! Good stuff! That must have been pretty special spending time with Pro's associated with Roy!

Much of my training with the older dogs is 10 minutes or less at a time.


----------



## dauber

J-Lee said:


> This thread has been a great introduction to flushing spaniels. It is full of good info, thanks to all of you who have shared your knowledge and experience. It has made me take a serious look at these little dogs.


Great having you follow along. This is where the spaniel lovers reside!


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> 3 minutes is my attention span I do 3 minutes 3 times a day. I read a book once titled something like the 10 minute retriever by the Dahl's. They talked about how you could train a retriever in 10 minutes training sessions. Enjoy that pup YG.


I am really enjoying the pup Steve. She's 10 weeks now and really getting her feet under her. 

House training has been the primary focus so far and that is coming along pretty well. Belle LOVES the snow and the tag alders. She's venturing further from the house for longer periods of time. 

Have fun with Zac this weekend!

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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> That is some good stuff Hal! Now if only I can follow it:yikes:.


Maybe this will add some clarity. During the process of force breaking, trained retrieve, what have you. the pressure, force whether be ear pinch toe pinch e-collar is constant and in many cases unrelenting. This a process that in reality teaches the dog how to learn, many of the "unnatural behaviors' that we will ask of it during it's lifetime. If pressure is not contant and being maintained during the process the dog may "win" the battle and if that happens consistence retrieveing is at stake or lack there of.

During the steadying process of the spaniel the use of incremental force must be applied. The trainer must develop a "rheostat" in applying corrections properly. Without those adjustments drive is at risk, flush is at risk and relationship between the dog and handler are at risk. any of the tools that dog folks have at the disposal can be used properly to steady a dog with. and like wise those same tools can be improperly applied.

Now here is the good news for example..when I started my very first sessions with Zeta we started them with the ultimate goal of being a steady gun dog as our goal. each subsequent session "force' of some form has been applied.
You and Zac have been on the same track and whether you want to be believe it not you have been applying force as well I can see it in vids.
I think conditions will be good to day to tighten the "screws' on Zeta a little more and begin actual line steadiness.. with any luck i'll try to make a vid

Link to 2013 ESS Champs at Buccleugh trailer for the Paul French production video


----------



## dauber

held at Sandringham Estate, Norfolk by gracious permission of Her Majesty The Queen on 16th and 17th January 2013

1st Moelfamau Griffon: Owner/Handler Will Clulee
(FTCH Argyll Warrior ex Flora Spreadable)
2nd Voodoo Black Widow: Owner G Philips, Handler Nick Gregory
... (Mallowdale Jamie ex Primevil Blue Saphire)
3rd Tudor Briar Moonwarrior: Owner Josie Tudor, Handler I Openshaw
(FTCh Danderw Druid ex FTCh Randalyn Black Jazz)
4th FTCh Lockslane Archibald: Owner Derek Lee, Handler Will Clulee
(FTCh Larford Evan ex Oreton Candy of Lockslane)

Diplomas of Merit:

Centrewalk Moonshell: Owner/Handler Richard Preest
Tudorbriar Moonstar: Owner/Handler Nick Gregory
Milden Slipper: Owner/ Handler J Thompson
Fenlord Dancing Queen: Owner/Handler Robin Laud
Mallowdale Music of Tiptop Jack: Owner Nigel Partis/ Handler I Openshaw
FTCh Wetlands Spice Of Leeglen: Owner/Handler Graham West
Jess Of Misty Valley: Owner/Handler N Thomas
FTCh Chyknell Hidie: Owner/Handler Joe Shotton
Mallowdale Maggy: Owner S Dixon/ Handler I Openshaw
FTCH Winhocklin Single Star of Tiptopjack: Owner N Partis/Handler I Openshaw
FTCh Brook Furlong of Tiptopjack: Owner N Partis/Handler I Openshaw
FTCH Tiptopjack Sixpence: Owner N Partis/Handler Wendy Openshaw
FTCh Tiptopjack Dime: Owner Nigel Partis/ Handler I Openshaw
FTCh Gournaycourt Ginger: Owner Jan Menzies/Handler John Bailey
FTCh Mallowdale Midge: Owner/Handler J Heeley

The winner of The Cocker Spaniel Club Peter Hall Trophy for the dog with the most points in the current season was: 
FTCh Wetlands Spice Of Leeglen: Owner/Handler Graham West


Looks like quite the trial for Mr. Clulee!


----------



## JAM

I'm struck by the thick cover the dogs in the ESS Championship video are working. I don't know if I could even walk very well through that stuff. 

The pups were really working it well. Nice video!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Maybe this will add some clarity. During the process of force breaking, trained retrieve, what have you. the pressure, force whether be ear pinch toe pinch e-collar is constant and in many cases unrelenting. This a process that in reality teaches the dog how to learn, many of the "unnatural behaviors' that we will ask of it during it's lifetime. If pressure is not contant and being maintained during the process the dog may "win" the battle and if that happens consistence retrieveing is at stake or lack there of.
> 
> During the steadying process of the spaniel the use of incremental force must be applied. The trainer must develop a "rheostat" in applying corrections properly. Without those adjustments drive is at risk, flush is at risk and relationship between the dog and handler are at risk. any of the tools that dog folks have at the disposal can be used properly to steady a dog with. and like wise those same tools can be improperly applied.
> 
> Now here is the good news for example..when I started my very first sessions with Zeta we started them with the ultimate goal of being a steady gun dog as our goal. each subsequent session "force' of some form has been applied.
> You and Zac have been on the same track and *whether you want to be believe it not you have been applying force* as well I can see it in vids.
> I think conditions will be good to day to tighten the "screws' on Zeta a little more and begin actual line steadiness.. with any luck i'll try to make a vid


Oh yes force is being applied, albeit very minor to begin with, in Zac's case the housebreaking was a type of force, having him go to the bathroom out side when he wanted to go whereever and whenever he wanted. The first few weeks when he got into trouble in the house we just picked him up and gave him a substitute toy. Then in a few weeks the NO command was introduced. Shortly thereafter the hup to get his food bowl, along with the kennel command since he is fed in his kennel. All examples of increasing force and teaching Zac that he can turn the pressure off with the correct reponse. More great stuff Hal! 

Zac was to get his first live clipped bird today, but we got 10 or so inches of snow late yesterday and our training in cancelled today


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## dauber

JAM said:


> I'm struck by the thick cover the dogs in the ESS Championship video are working. I don't know if I could even walk very well through that stuff.
> 
> The pups were really working it well. Nice video!


+1 That was some good cover. Looks like thye would have to be good on blinds to complete that trial since they couldn't see much on some of the cover there. I like those Paul French vids.


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## Gavan

liked the tag alders and ....was getting further and further from the house. I may be misunderstandng your post but I make it a point to never let a pup get out of gun range unless they are on a retrieve. In other words they should not be allowed to run around on their own out of your control, or zone of influence.
Some may think this is a bit obsessive but I like to "begin with the end in mind". If we intend for the dog to hunt in gun range and be responsive to us then "practicing" the opposite makes reaching the goal harder.
That is why I like the buckets or barrels for a pup that is already in training. It is a way to get conditioning work for the dog in a structured environment and build on training rather than taking the dog to an open field and turning them loose to run around and have their "head".
Every pup is different in terms of temperament. Some when you turn them loose will head for the hills and a few will stay right with you and wait for direction or just hang around. If you have the former it is even more critical to not allow the dog out of your control so as not to build bad habits.
So, having said all of that, if I misunderstood your post...never mind.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> held at Sandringham Estate, Norfolk by gracious permission of Her Majesty The Queen on 16th and 17th January 2013
> 
> 1st Moelfamau Griffon: Owner/Handler Will Clulee
> (FTCH Argyll Warrior ex Flora Spreadable)
> 2nd Voodoo Black Widow: Owner G Philips, Handler Nick Gregory
> ... (Mallowdale Jamie ex Primevil Blue Saphire)
> 3rd Tudor Briar Moonwarrior: Owner Josie Tudor, Handler I Openshaw
> (FTCh Danderw Druid ex FTCh Randalyn Black Jazz)
> 4th FTCh Lockslane Archibald: Owner Derek Lee, Handler Will Clulee
> (FTCh Larford Evan ex Oreton Candy of Lockslane)
> 
> 
> Looks like quite the trial for Mr. Clulee!


Thanks for posting up the winners and CMs from the Cocker Championship.

Some familiar kennel names show up, notably Mallowdale and Chyknell. And Danderw Druid as the sire of the 3rd place dog. At one of the recent Nationals here, Druid had sired more qualifiers than any other sire. He's making his presence felt on both sides of the pond. His sire, Mallowdale Rackatear won the English Championship a few years ago.

Blood will tell.

NB


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## dauber

One good thing with the snow is the Zacster slows down enough for our camera to get him in a few shots.

Not to the champaign celebration level Zeta had this fall, but I will celebrate Danderw Druid's offsprings success with a Guinness during the Red Wings opener


----------



## yooperguy

Gavan said:


> liked the tag alders and ....was getting further and further from the house. I may be misunderstandng your post but I make it a point to never let a pup get out of gun range unless they are on a retrieve. In other words they should not be allowed to run around on their own out of your control, or zone of influence.
> Some may think this is a bit obsessive but I like to "begin with the end in mind". If we intend for the dog to hunt in gun range and be responsive to us then "practicing" the opposite makes reaching the goal harder.
> That is why I like the buckets or barrels for a pup that is already in training. It is a way to get conditioning work for the dog in a structured environment and build on training rather than taking the dog to an open field and turning them loose to run around and have their "head".
> Every pup is different in terms of temperament. Some when you turn them loose will head for the hills and a few will stay right with you and wait for direction or just hang around. If you have the former it is even more critical to not allow the dog out of your control so as not to build bad habits.
> So, having said all of that, if I misunderstood your post...never mind.


Hi Gavin. I appreciate your comments. "Further away from the house" was not meant to imply that she is out there on her own. I am with her everywhere she goes. I marvel at her progress in the two weeks that she has been "home." 

She is kenneled in the house during the work week. Today we were outside for 3 hours together. She's most likely sleeping most of the day on weekdays. We just came in and she is snoring up a storm by my side right now. . Warm and wet puppy smell is wafting up to my nose as I write this! Belle smell! LOL!

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## michgundog

Here is a picture of my latest springer pup learning hup and stay on the place board. He's catching on quick! 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Here is a picture of my latest springer pup learning hup and stay on the place board. He's catching on quick!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
 Good stuff Mike!


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## yooperguy

How old is your pup michgundog? He's a good looking lad. 

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## michgundog

yooperguy2003 said:


> How old is your pup michgundog? He's a good looking lad.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks, he's 5 mos.

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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Good stuff Mike!


Thanks Steve. Keep the pics of Zack coming!! 

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## JAM

dauber said:


> One good thing with the snow is the Zacster slows down enough for our camera to get him in a few shots.
> 
> Not to the champaign celebration level Zeta had this fall, but I will celebrate Danderw Druid's offsprings success with a Guinness during the Red Wings opener


Really cute! Zac's so full of snow he looks like a liver and white pup.


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## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> Here is a picture of my latest springer pup learning hup and stay on the place board. He's catching on quick!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Looks like he's keeping an eye on you, Mike. Good Boy!

NB


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## JAM

michgundog said:


> Here is a picture of my latest springer pup learning hup and stay on the place board. He's catching on quick!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


WOW! Beautiful little pup! Keep the pics coming!


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## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Looks like he's keeping an eye on you, Mike. Good Boy!
> 
> NB


He's very alert and fun to train. 

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## michgundog

JAM said:


> WOW! Beautiful little pup! Keep the pics coming!


Thanks JAM, as long as he keeps listening and doesn't move. LOL 

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## gundogguy

Link to 2013 ESS Champs at Buccleugh trailer for the Paul French production video




[/QUOTE]

Re played the trailer from the 2013 ESS UK Champs. a very interesting discourse between one of the judges and a handler took place at about 2:09 thru 2:12 time in the vid took place. 

Jam- Good call on walking conditions at 1:06 a handler went down. Tough going truly Springer or Cocker conditions


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Link to 2013 ESS Champs at Buccleugh trailer for the Paul French production video
> 2013 English Springer Spaniel Championship held at Queensbeery Estate - YouTube


Re played the trailer from the 2013 ESS UK Champs. a very interesting discourse between one of the judges and a handler took place at about 2:09 thru 2:12 time in the vid took place. 

Jam- Good call on walking conditions at 1:06 a handler went down. Tough going truly Springer or Cocker conditions[/QUOTE]

It was tough to understand, but did the one guy say he lives in Tennessee? Very cool video, lots of heavy bracken. 


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## 2ESRGR8

At 2:38 the dog refused a command (whistle and hand signal) but then flushed a bird within seconds. That dog will be eliminated I assume is that correct? Not the dogs fault rather the handlers as I saw it.


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## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> Re played the trailer from the 2013 ESS UK Champs. a very interesting discourse between one of the judges and a handler took place at about 2:09 thru 2:12 time in the vid took place.


It was tough to understand, but did the one guy say he lives in Tennessee? Very cool video, lots of heavy bracken. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire[/QUOTE]

OK, Hal , it seems some translation is in order re that bit you mentioned above?

My 'puter is old and so are my ears. I got some of it but not all of it. Plus the judges and handlers are speaking the King's English and certainly not "American". :lol:


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## Jay Johnson

gundogguy said:


> Link to 2013 ESS Champs at Buccleugh trailer for the Paul French production video
> 2013 English Springer Spaniel Championship held at Queensbeery Estate - YouTube


Re played the trailer from the 2013 ESS UK Champs. a very interesting discourse between one of the judges and a handler took place at about 2:09 thru 2:12 time in the vid took place. 

Jam- Good call on walking conditions at 1:06 a handler went down. Tough going truly Springer or Cocker conditions[/QUOTE]

Neat video. Fun to watch. I love the Castle and the look of the country. 

Before I die I want to travel to England and fish the Itchen, Test, etc... 

I was surprised at how quickly the gunners killed birds. 

When I was in my late teens I took an interest in Springers and attended some local trials. As I recall the gunners were highly prized for being able to kill a flush a ways out as it gave the dogs and judges a chance to show off and grade their marking skills.

I realize only a small portion of the trial was documented but is it typical to kill the birds so quickly after the flush in a major trail like this?

Thanks!


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## gundogguy

Neat video. Fun to watch. I love the Castle and the look of the country. 

Before I die I want to travel to England and fish the Itchen, Test, etc... 
*I was surprised at how quickly the gunners killed
birds. *

When I was in my late teens I took an interest in Springers and attended some local trials. *As I recall the gunners were highly prized for being able to kill a flush a ways out as it gave the dogs and judges a chance to show off and grade their marking skills.*

I realize only a small portion of the trial was documented but is it typical to kill the birds so quickly after the flush in a major trail like this?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

Great observation Jay! Your correct on two points. Here in the states,guns donot get invited to gun unless they have that skill needed to set the dogs up on note worthy retrieves.
If you go back and revisit the vid all of the Judges and one of the guns made note about the difficulty dogs were having marking in the cover conditions that were prevalent during this trial. And one of the judges even noted that they were looking for dogs that could Mark not have to be Handled to the retrieve as in the case of a retriever blind. ( I could only imagine there were dogs popping on the line as they went for the mark) And I'm sure that the Stewart of the Beat and /or the Judges instructed guns to take birds quickly, due to those prevailing conditions.
I know on occasion I been admonished to get birds down quicker than what I might normally take.
Having experience a couple of Springer trials in the UK I would admit that conditions over there call for more open choked guns and lighter loads. Where we might use 36gram loads F/IM choke they would be using 28gram loads. Mod/IC choke


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> It was tough to understand, but did the one *guy say he lives in Tennessee?* Very cool video, lots of heavy bracken.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


OK*, Hal , it seems some translation is in order re that bit you mentioned above?*

My 'puter is old and so are my ears. I got some of it but not all of it. Plus the judges and handlers are speaking the King's English and certainly not "American". :lol:[/QUOTE]

Natty Michigundog, yes the man said he lived in Tennessee. Incidentally that is Alex Kerr Zeta's breeder,
he mention in his interview that he grew up down the road from the Buccleugh Estate, which he did.

But the real "read" comes at exactly 2:09thru 2:12 there is no audible script read the look on the judges face and his gesture and read the look on the handlers face. If any one has trialed or worked a trial as a shagger,gun or judge, you have seen the facial expressions that I refer to. In this case the Judge has just made a decision concerning the handlers dog! Now take a stab at the action that is taking place..
This trailer the Paul French put together is really just amazing when you put the interviews and then the action shots together. I will be buying this DVD..we'll set up up some sort of lending program.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Natty Michigundog, yes the man said he lived in Tennessee. Incidentally that is Alex Kerr Zeta's breeder,
> he mention in his interview that he grew up down the road from the Buccleugh Estate, which he did.
> 
> But the real "read" comes at exactly 2:09thru 2:12 there is no audible script read the look on the judges face and his gesture and read the look on the handlers face. If any one has trialed or worked a trial as a shagger,gun or judge, you have seen the facial expressions that I refer to. In this case the Judge has just made a decision concerning the handlers dog! Now take a stab at the action that is taking place..
> This trailer the Paul French put together is really just amazing when you put the interviews and then the action shots together. I will be buying this DVD..we'll set up up some sort of lending program.


Oh gezz! I though the guy said he was from Trenary and had a bad yooper accent:evilsmile. Thanks for the translation.

Good idea with the vid, I was thinking of getting the cocker one, can pass that one around too.

The judges comments really help ya understand what is going on. Karen really enjoyed Judge O'Shea this year since he told her much of what was going on with his thinking.

Oh boy on the reaction at 2:09, Karen says she has seen that one a few times, even makes the shaggers heart sink!


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Oh gezz! I though the guy said he was from Trenary and had a bad yooper accent:evilsmile. Thanks for the translation.
> 
> Good idea with the vid, I was thinking of getting the cocker one, can pass that one around too.
> 
> The judges comments really help ya understand what is going on. Karen really enjoyed Judge O'Shea this year since he told her much of what was going on with his thinking.




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Trenary... That's funny dauber! A spot of tea and some Trenary toast?


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## dauber

is now out!


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## 2ESRGR8

How cool is that, the Queen shows up for the trophy presentation.
I wonder if Obama will be at Ames this year for the National Championship?


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Great fliers....great planting team there, really with the cover there is is easy to dump em in, plus the birds they get from Ohio are superb, and the managers at Haymarsh were good to work with.
> 
> It* is highly prestigious to be selected to the Nationals Gun team, really it is to gun any of the spaniel trials.* It is very informative to just watch the gunners at a trial, watch their movements in relation to the handlers and dogs,* watch their patience with the shots, and stop to think about all the things running thru their minds;* not only where are all the saftey factors, but where will the bird drop for the flushing dog and honoring dog. The center gun is especially challenging and informative to observe.


+1 Dauber. This weekend down in Ravenna Ohio. David Barto will be conducting a Field trial guns Gunning Seminar. it is a great program and a must, if any one aspires to gun Spaniel events. 2 days of grilling and developing gunning philosophy! Believe it or not there is more classroom than actual shooting. Emphasis on safety,that goes with saying, but along with safety the decision making and shot selection process. "Where on the flight line will I take the bird"? "What is behind the bird that I'm shooting at?" "And where do I want the bird fall in setting up the retrieve"?
These are just a few of the topics that will be covered

If I recall David Barto the gun captain for the NOC held in 2006. David has been a center gun now for some 20 years at least.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> +1 Dauber. This weekend down in Ravenna Ohio. David Barto will be conducting a Field trial guns Gunning Seminar. it is a great program and a must, if any one aspires to gun Spaniel events. 2 days of grilling and developing gunning philosophy! Believe it or not there is more classroom than actual shooting. Emphasis on safety,that goes with saying, but along with safety the decision making and shot selection process. "Where on the flight line will I take the bird"? "What is behind the bird that I'm shooting at?" "And where do I want the bird fall in setting up the retrieve"?
> These are just a few of the topics that will be covered
> 
> If I recall David Barto the gun captain for the NOC held in 2006. David has been a center gun now for some 20 years at least.


They should have great weather for the outdoor portion of the seminar. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> +1 Dauber. This weekend down in Ravenna Ohio. David Barto will be conducting a Field trial guns Gunning Seminar. it is a great program and a must, if any one aspires to gun Spaniel events. 2 days of grilling and developing gunning philosophy! Believe it or not there is more classroom than actual shooting. Emphasis on safety,that goes with saying, but along with safety the decision making and shot selection process. "Where on the flight line will I take the bird"? "What is behind the bird that I'm shooting at?" "And where do I want the bird fall in setting up the retrieve"?
> These are just a few of the topics that will be covered
> 
> If I recall David Barto the gun captain for the NOC held in 2006. David has been a center gun now for some 20 years at least.


Yes Dave was gun captain in 2006. He is a top notch gun and gun captain. Even that sid though he had one instance in 2006 during the 4th series in the woods where a phesant he dropped literarally on a the honoring dogs head. He did pull himself, but not before some ribbing. http://www.spanieljournal.com/oginn.html 

That was a challenging series for planting, it was a fairly thick wooded swale, but pheasants especially in the evening did not want to be there, had to carry twice as many as usual to try to keep the area with a few birds. Lots of tracking and strange flight patterns in the trees made for some really intersting scenarios, one which is decribed above. AR and Ollie took it really well adn sure had fun with the bird to the head of Midge.

Watching the gun team is truely educational and with some of those characters quite entertaining as well. I bet that Barto seminar is realy worth th eprice of admission. Mrs. D and I are already making plans to attend the 2013 cocker NC and watching the gun team will be part of the experience.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Mrs. D and I are already making plans to attend the 2013 cocker NC and watching the gun team will be part of the experience.


Steve,

Where will the CNC be in 2013? And when will it come back to Michigan? and Where? Thanks.

Rod


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Steve,
> 
> Where will the CNC be in 2013? And when will it come back to Michigan? and Where? Thanks.
> 
> Rod


2013 Cocker National Championship - Menoken ND, Judges Marty Knibbs and Mike Noland. October 23, 2013 until conclusion. 

I don't know when it will be back in Michigan. No idea either where, but my guess might be down where the Springers had their National in 2011. I am not in the "loop" of decision makers for those things. Wouldn't surprise me it is way west in 2014.


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Hal,
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and one other thing re the gun team. Both the marksmanship and gun handling safety habits exhibited by the official guns were of the highest order. Everybody; dogs, handlers, judges, shaggers, marshalls, and all in the gallery were kept very safe at all times. No "close calls" or other such nonsense. *A distinct contrast to some of the extremely dangerous gun safety violations witnessed at local "fun runs" etc .*




:SHOCKED:Botta Boom Botta Bing!:SHOCKED:


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> 2013 Cocker National Championship - Menoken ND, Judges Marty Knibbs and Mike Noland. October 23, 2013 until conclusion.
> 
> .


Thanks Steve. Mendoken, ND is where Tom Ness has his Oahe Knls. And where two of his best patrons, Hob and Lisa Brown, own a big ranch. I hear its quite the showplace and so that may be some or all of the running may take place.


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Thanks Steve. Mendoken, ND is where Tom Ness has his Oahe Knls. And where two of his best patrons, Hob and Lisa Brown, own a big ranch. I hear its quite the showplace and so that may be some or all of the running may take place.


Cocker Nationals, Pheasant hunting, late October North Dakota..Hmmmm
I smell a road trip in the offing


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Cocker Nationals, Pheasant hunting, late October North Dakota..Hmmmm
> I smell a road trip in the offing


Hmmm good thinkin. 

Now we just need to decide if we want to volunteer or just spectate. I should go early since Tom N wanted me to see his labs.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Hmmm good thinkin.
> 
> Now we just need to decide if we want to volunteer or just spectate. I should go early since Tom N wanted me to see his labs.


Okay Steve, it makes sense now. You started a CDR thread and now you want to check out labs??? LOL 

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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Okay Steve, it makes sense now. You started a CDR thread and now you want to check out labs??? LOL
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I love labs!! Besides still have over 100 decoys, gang lines, skull boat (making friends with some younger folks with good arms) and great areas for diver hunting. My all time fav duck hunting style is skulling out on ducks that decoyed to a good set.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> I love labs!! Besides still have over 100 decoys, gang lines, skull boat (making friends with some younger folks with good arms) and great areas for diver hunting. My all time fav duck hunting style is skulling out on ducks that decoyed to a good set.


I agree!! I love the Saginaw Bay, I only wish when I lived in BC, that I did more hunting out there. Jeff Towler of Marsh Hawk Retievers owns both springers and labs. His labs(and springers) are awesome and a lot closer than ND. If you ever decide on buying one I would contact him. 

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## dauber

michgundog said:


> I agree!! I love the Saginaw Bay, I only wish when I lived in BC, that I did more hunting out there. Jeff Towler of Marsh Hawk Retievers owns both springers and labs. His labs(and springers) are awesome and a lot closer than ND. If you ever decide on buying one I would contact him.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Will definitey talk with Jeffery if we go that route. It will be a while, one pup is enough for now. I also would like to talk Tom N into taking me icefishing on the Missouri for some of those 20lb pike he gets:evil:.


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## dauber

First one is Zac heading to the favorite cedar tree, that goodness the original owners left that cedar!

Second one is Zac stopping for a second, I had missed about 10 shots before this...he really isn't standing on the grounds but sort of swimming in snow.

Third one is Zac running around in the snow. We got somewhere between 20 and 30 inches yesterday.


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## michgundog

Great pictures of Zac!! Wow looks like you have 2 feet of snow?? 

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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Great pictures of Zac!! Wow looks like you have 2 feet of snow??
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


We got at least 2 feet yesterday!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> We got at least 2 feet yesterday!


:lol: 2 feet...That's just Friday in in Engadine!:lol:


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> :lol: 2 feet...That's just Friday in in Engadine!:lol:


Everything is Fine in Engadine:evilsmile:lol:

Another one we say: It wouldn't hurt us to go to Curtis!


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Everything is Fine in Engadine:evilsmile:lol:
> 
> Another one we say: It wouldn't hurt us to go to Curtis!


We missed that recent snow. You were wise to head off of the bay when you did!

I tried to get some pics of my pup in the snow here but she wouldn't stop moving! She's snoring at my feet right now so I'll try again later. 

29 degrees and bright sunny now in Kinross. 

Go Zac! Snow like that is great for burning off that puppy energy quick!

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## michgundog

We probably don't even have 2 inches.


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## gundogguy

The last few posts have been about a young dog that Michgundog had inform us of. This pup's sire is a dog known as FC Bricksclose Matchwood aka Badger
Badger has been dead for some 15-20years. Many doses of seman were frozen in Badger's case. Mark Hairfield made a very good decision when he started this program with the Badger dog.
Does any one know of other notable Spaniels that breeding material has been saved for future use?? Or of dogs that came from frozen AI breedings


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> Congratulations to my good friend Mike Pollack for his recent placements with his pup julep. Her sire is Brickclose Matchwood. Looks like she's following in her fathers footsteps! Mike is a former Michigander who will be returning to Michigan after serving his country.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Nice job, Mike & Julep. Congrats!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> The last few posts have been about a young dog that Michgundog had inform us of. This pup's sire is a dog known as FC Bricksclose Matchwood aka Badger
> Badger has been dead for some 15-20years. Many doses of seman were frozen in Badger's case. Mark Hairfield made a very good decision when he started this program with the Badger dog.
> Does any one know of other notable Spaniels that breeding material has been saved for future use?? Or of dogs that came from frozen AI breedings


When J Skiba bred his Mille he used frozen semen/AI from CFC FC Robinsmoor Frolic.


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> When J Skiba bred his Mille he used frozen semen/AI from CFC FC Robinsmoor Frolic.



Great Information! *How* long ago was that? *Where *did the pups go??


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Great Information! *How* long ago was that? *Where *did the pups go??


I believe it will be 2 years this fall. He kept 2 males , there's 3 females that are local that I'm aware of, I'm not certain about the rest. All of the pups from the litter that I've seen action are real good.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> We got at least 2 feet yesterday!


Kubotas and snow blowers have been mentioned here a time or two. We dont get the snow that the UP does but Leelanau Country is Lake Effect Central. And the LE Snow Machine has been in high gear the last few. But we're not worried.

We have a fairly steep driveway in to our house so I built my pole barn right at the top. "The Answer" is parked in there, plugged in and ready to go. Snolo Problempo for a Kubota.

Here is "The Answer". A Kubota GL 3010 (32 HP), 4WD, FEL, Ag tires, chains on front, Diff lock, and Ford/NH 716 blower.











Gotta run. Mrs Bumpo and I are taking the hounds on a snowshoe hike in the NP this afternoon. Perfect snow for it!

NB


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## Birddog8487

gundogguy said:


> The last few posts have been about a young dog that Michgundog had inform us of. This pup's sire is a dog known as FC Bricksclose Matchwood aka Badger
> Badger has been dead for some 15-20years. Many doses of seman were frozen in Badger's case. Mark Hairfield made a very good decision when he started this program with the Badger dog.
> Does any one know of other notable Spaniels that breeding material has been saved for future use?? Or of dogs that came from frozen AI breedings


Jim Karlovec has some frozen semen from his FC/CFC Parkbreck Warlord (Stu). He by EFC Jade of Livermere a sire to 4 English National Champions. The stud I used on my sue was Columbias Bewitched Warlord. The only male from a frozen semen breeding of Stu and Windwhistle Bewitched.


----------



## Gavan

owned by Mike Wintersteen and handled by Mike Wallace was Open High Point in 2008. He was a frozen semen son of Yankee.


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## Gavan

nfm


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## gundogguy

Birddog8487 said:


> Jim Karlovec has some frozen semen from his FC/CFC Parkbreck Warlord (Stu). He by EFC Jade of Livermere a sire to 4 English National Champions. The stud I used on my sue was Columbias Bewitched Warlord. The only male from a frozen semen breeding of Stu and Windwhistle Bewitched.





Gavan said:


> owned by Mike Wintersteen and handled by Mike Wallace was Open High Point in 2008. He was a frozen semen son of *Yankee.*


Good stuff! Wow Yankee was a dog!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Good stuff! Wow Yankee was a dog!


How many years was he top sire? 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> How many years was he top sire?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Assuming that your asking as to, How many FC's did Don Candie's Yankee produce? Or how many years it was noted that his progeny was successful? I would not know any one that would know where that info is archived or if it is even on record for that matter.


----------



## dauber

video. This is pretty long (48 minutes) but I found it quite interesting.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rqln3Q49xI"]New!!! Spaniel Trialling Documentary - YouTube[/ame]


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> video. This is pretty long (48 minutes) but I found it quite interesting.
> 
> New!!! Spaniel Trialling Documentary - YouTube


Nice Informercial, seems to be the trend with the Spaniel breeders and trainers in the UK. Getting the info out to the markets has sent a lot of great blood here. The one thing I notice in the UK much more so than here is that most breeders actually train dogs, and most trainers do the majority breeding that is done on the island. It seems that way with both Spaniels and Retrievers as well.


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## gundogguy

This showed up in my email last night:

"_Over the past few months the idea of Cocker/Springer combined trials has been brought( I would like to know who brought it up) to the ECSCA FTC. After much discussion, the FTC felt that it would be helpful to get feedback from a wider group and therefore created a survey for you to give your input back to the FTC. "_

I thought it had been put to bed but obviously there is still some pressure out there to increase the size of trials and the number of trials. or possible reduce the numbers.
Someone or some group has a number fixation, either the numbers are not big enough or the numbers are not small enough, either way whether you trial or not and remember if you are buying Field bred Springers or Cockers you are purchasing product that was and is being developed in the field trial community. 
You may or may not be concerned with the outcome of this movement, the combining of the breeds in trial, you will still have a stake in it. 
what say you Spanielers?


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> This showed up in my email last night:
> 
> "_Over the past few months the idea of Cocker/Springer combined trials has been brought( I would like to know who brought it up) to the ECSCA FTC. After much discussion, the FTC felt that it would be helpful to get feedback from a wider group and therefore created a survey for you to give your input back to the FTC. "_
> 
> I thought it had been put to bed but obviously there is still some pressure out there to increase the size of trials and the number of trials. or possible reduce the numbers.
> Someone or some group has a number fixation, either the numbers are not big enough or the numbers are not small enough, either way whether you trial or not and remember if you are buying Field bred Springers or Cockers you are purchasing product that was and is being developed in the field trial community.
> You may or may not be concerned with the outcome of this movement, the combining of the breeds in trial, you will still have a stake in it.
> what say you Spanielers?


Well,, I've been to a few ECS/ESS trials and hundreds of pointy dog trials. And I know that dog orgs can be just as political as anybody else. So an issue that was "dead" has now been resurected?? Why? Whose "OX" is going to get gored?

ECS can run against the big dogs now in the Canadian trials. And a few brave souls do; McGagh, Ness, Dartt, et al. Sometimes they even win a placement. When McGagh won the CNC with Storm a few years ago, it was historic. And probably never will happen again.

But by and large, Springers are bigger, faster, stronger, more power etc, etc than Cockers. Thats just basic biology. The top ESS _should win_ in field trials against top Cockers 90-95% of the time, or more. Baring the breaks inherent in FTs.

So, whats in it for the Cockers? Just Batting practice??:idea: I dont see it.

Curious as to what others think??

NB


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> This showed up in my email last night:
> 
> "_Over the past few months the idea of Cocker/Springer combined trials has been brought( I would like to know who brought it up) to the ECSCA FTC. After much discussion, the FTC felt that it would be helpful to get feedback from a wider group and therefore created a survey for you to give your input back to the FTC. "_
> 
> I thought it had been put to bed but obviously there is still some pressure out there to increase the size of trials and the number of trials. or possible reduce the numbers.
> Someone or some group has a number fixation, either the numbers are not big enough or the numbers are not small enough, either way whether you trial or not and remember if you are buying Field bred Springers or Cockers you are purchasing product that was and is being developed in the field trial community.
> You may or may not be concerned with the outcome of this movement, the combining of the breeds in trial, you will still have a stake in it.
> what say you Spanielers?


As a cocker consumer I like it as is being able to go to a trial and get a look at a rather large number of cockers at one place. Saying that if I ever did run in some trials being able to run in a few of the Michigan springer trials would certainly expand my options without having to drive cross country. My question; How would this affect the cocker over the long term if at all? Would they become bigger runners and bigger dogs? Or would they improve in nose, marking and retrieve? I don't know the answers. I do wonder what the motivation is behind the movement.

My vote in the survey is to keep it as is.


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## Duece22

Delete-accidental post


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> This showed up in my email last night:
> 
> "_Over the past few months the idea of Cocker/Springer combined trials has been brought( I would like to know who brought it up) to the ECSCA FTC. After much discussion, the FTC felt that it would be helpful to get feedback from a wider group and therefore created a survey for you to give your input back to the FTC. "_
> 
> I thought it had been put to bed but obviously there is still some pressure out there to increase the size of trials and the number of trials. or possible reduce the numbers.
> Someone or some group has a number fixation, either the numbers are not big enough or the numbers are not small enough, either way whether you trial or not and remember if you are buying Field bred Springers or Cockers you are purchasing product that was and is being developed in the field trial community.
> You may or may not be concerned with the outcome of this movement, the combining of the breeds in trial, you will still have a stake in it.
> what say you Spanielers?


I would prefer trials stayed ESS/ECS specific. If any ECS owners would like to compete against springers they can always go to Canada and give it a try.


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## michgundog

JAM said:


> I would prefer trials stayed ESS/ECS specific. If any ECS owners would like to compete against springers they can always go to Canada and give it a try.


I agree JAM! Why mess with traditions??


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> *Always remember this the importation of UK blood is a one way street. Having brought some 20 dogs in over the last 25 yrs, for myseld and clients, I have never heard of US blood or dogs going back to the UK. Does any one know any body that has sold a puppy back to a UK Spaniel-er?*


Why is this the case? 

My wild uninformed guess would be higher number of available dogs is greater in the UK? Are there some traits that are preferred in the UK that are lost here, such as the cover busters, highly obedient dogs they need to play their trial games and even hunt the way they do in the UK?


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## JAM

I'm fairly new to the game and am not a breeder so take this for what it's worth...

I've heard people say that their UK bred dog can't compete in US trials because of the dog's soft flush. In the UK, if the dog traps a bird it's dismissed from the trial so the soft flush is a must. In the US, we train our dogs to catch that bird if it can to keep that hard flush we love so much.

Also, it seems to me that in the few US trials I've attended, it's pleasing for the dog to run big. The videos I've seen of UK trials the dogs are working much closer although the cover is much different. I would think it would be an easy thing to change the working distance though - either way.

Just some thoughts.


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## dauber

JAM said:


> I'm fairly new to the game and am not a breeder so take this for what it's worth...
> 
> I've heard people say that their UK bred dog can't compete in US trials because of the dog's soft flush. In the UK, if the dog traps a bird it's dismissed from the trial so the soft flush is a must. In the US, we train our dogs to catch that bird if it can to keep that hard flush we love so much.
> 
> Also, it seems to me that in the few US trials I've attended, it's pleasing for the dog to run big. The videos I've seen of UK trials the dogs are working much closer although the cover is much different. I would think it would be an easy thing to change the working distance though - either way.
> 
> Just some thoughts.


Good point on the flush JAM. I always wonder how much of hard/soft flush is in the training vs genetics, but with my experiences it is very easy to "soften" the flush with pressure used incorrectly (or maybe correctly if a UKer). 

I also agree with the range, in my experience they seem to learn how to range out too far very easily, what takes more effort is teaching them what range is expected by conistent handling.


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## michgundog

JAM said:


> I'm fairly new to the game and am not a breeder so take this for what it's worth...
> 
> I've heard people say that their UK bred dog can't compete in US trials because of the dog's soft flush. In the UK, if the dog traps a bird it's dismissed from the trial so the soft flush is a must. In the US, we train our dogs to catch that bird if it can to keep that hard flush we love so much.
> 
> Also, it seems to me that in the few US trials I've attended, it's pleasing for the dog to run big. The videos I've seen of UK trials the dogs are working much closer although the cover is much different. I would think it would be an easy thing to change the working distance though - either way.
> 
> Just some thoughts.


Good observations JAM. From the videos posted on here and from what I've seen at the few trials I've entered or watched. The UK trials seem to be more realistic compared to the trials here IMO.


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## gundogguy

[B said:


> michgundog[/B];4492137]I've never heard of one Hal. I think it would be neat to secretly place a FTW from the UK into the hands of a no body like myself ( as far as the big picture in the spaniel world is concerned) and run some trials here in the US. I wonder what the out come would be??
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


If I understand your proposal, and i'm not sure if I do I would say it happens quite often, Mike Pollack is a good example His Julip pup is a 1st gen UK dog and she seems to be rolling up placements with a relatively unknown handler

[ 

Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire[/QUOTE]



[B said:


> dauber[/B];4492392]Why is this the case?
> 
> My wild uninformed guess would be higher number of available dogs is greater in the UK? Are there some traits that are preferred in the UK that are lost here, such as the cover busters, highly obedient dogs they need to play their trial games and even hunt the way they do in the UK?


Duaber the UK guys folks do not get to see our dogs the way we see their dogs. And when they do they see them in a very poorly produced hunting videos with dogs chasing hunters screaming and birds being blown-up off the end of gun barrels Show me a well produced trial video.
Regional differences in dogs is not just a Spaniel thing Setters pointers Retrievers are different from the east coat to the west coast



[B said:


> JAM[/B];4492485]I'm fairly new to the game and am not a breeder so take this for what it's worth...
> 
> I've heard people say that their UK bred dog can't compete in US trials because of the dog's soft flush. In the UK, if the dog traps a bird it's dismissed from the trial so the soft flush is a must. In the US, we train our dogs to catch that bird if it can to keep that hard flush we love so much.
> 
> Also, it seems to me that in the few US trials I've attended, it's pleasing for the dog to run big. The videos I've seen of UK trials the dogs are working much closer although the cover is much different. I would think it would be an easy thing to change the working distance though - either way.
> 
> Just some thoughts.


Many times the flush thing is overrated in the judging process The UK tend to look for more balance across the board than one spectacular talent. For example I would weight bird finding and marking on the retrieve ahead of flush. Am i wrong no am I right no But that is what I would be looking for when judging.
Remember it is very hard to compare the two systems, like apples to carrots I like em both but does not mean one is better than the other



[B said:


> michgundog;[/B]4492576]Good observations JAM. From the videos posted on here and from what I've seen at the few trials I've entered or watched. The UK trials seem to be more realistic compared to the trials here IMO.
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire




The reason for that Mike is the entire system The number of dogs entered in a trial Max 16. there is time to keep the dogs down for longer periods of time. and they are not running 3 series. 1 series with possible a run off between 2 may be 3 dogs. The estates that allow the events to run and the birds that are raised for the events. Most trial vids you see are run on pheasants in the woods when was the last time you shot pheasants in the woods? Other than preserve birds i never have hunted pheasants in the wood. Because of the woods shots are taken much closer than what we are used to on the prairie. it makes it a different game.
The trial game here is much easier than in the UK, One example if you have the entry money you can enter and get a run. Over there you may have the best dog on the island and never get a chance to show him off do to the 16 dog max entry, they base it on tradition not fairness or equality the way we do
Like or dislike maybe so, but comparisons are hard to draw.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Remember it is very hard to compare the two systems, like apples to carrots I like em both but does not mean one is better than the other


I was thinkin more along the lines of cheesecake and fruit salad, or BBG Boston Butt and Memphis ribs, but there ain't no nurse wratchet around here:evil:

Very true about quality vids here of a trial. Can't wait to see the Paul French vid next month of the Cocker championship.

Thanks for the insights Hal.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> I was thinkin more along the lines of cheesecake and fruit salad, or BBG Boston Butt and Memphis ribs, but there ain't no nurse wratchet around here:evil:
> 
> Very true about quality vids here of a trial. Can't wait to see the Paul French vid next month of the Cocker championship.
> 
> Thanks for the insights Hal.


Great feedback as usual Hal, thanks. I hope Mike can keep his streak going into AA! He has the dog to do it and the determination. I jokingly reminded him there's no such thing as a PFC title...lol


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> m
> Many springer trialers don't hunt and *few *train their springers in anything other than grass fields. .



All the grass we have currently 02/09/13 in SW Mich Photo Of Karen Balinsky's Field Spaniel, Paige MH proofing and polishing. Photo By D. Heuss
She made both her marks very well down in the swamp off to the east of where she produced this bird and her next bird. 

Ever tried training with pigeons in a wood lot or swamp???:evil::lol:


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> All the grass we have currently 02/09/13 in SW Mich Photo Of Karen Balinsky's Field Spaniel, Paige MH proofing and polishing. Photo By D. Heuss
> She made both her marks very well down in the swamp off to the east of where she produced this bird and her next bird.
> 
> Ever tried training with pigeons in a wood lot or swamp???:evil::lol:


Nice looking flush Paige! At least you can see some of the grass. Even after a bunch of rain and sleet last night still no grass showing here. 

Geeze, I can't even plant pigeons in ther field let alone in the woods:yikes:, I hoping JAM and Bob can get it thru my skull.


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## dauber

Here's a couple of great pictures JAM got of Zac's first live bird. Thanks JAM.


----------



## Gavan

I got out and trained both Sat and Sunday. We have more grass than you're showing but finding a spot to train on pheasants is a challenge. Beautiful day yesterday.


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Here's a couple of great pictures JAM got of Zac's first live bird. Thanks JAM.


Real nice photos of Zac. Black Duck?

Sure is soggy out today...

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## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Real nice photos of Zac. Black Duck?
> 
> Sure is soggy out today...
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yes JAM is amazing!
Blackduck parking lot! Very soggy, even my little snowblown training area is soggy slop today....looks like living room training today:sad:


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Yes JAM is amazing!
> Blackduck parking lot! Very soggy, even my little snowblown training area is soggy slop today....looks like living room training today:sad:


Yes I can tell that JAM was at a pretty low angle with the camera. Nice camera work JAM!



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## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> Yes I can tell that JAM was at a pretty low angle with the camera. Nice camera work JAM!
> 
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks, guys. I have much better luck taking pictures without the snow. And... I'm just short. 

I had to chop ice to get into the shed where I keep my pigeon food. Of course, there's water floating on top of the ice so I'll have to do it again once it refreezes. Very yucky weather. :-(

Love that little Zac! He's AWESOME!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here's a couple of great pictures JAM got of Zac's first live bird. Thanks JAM.


 Outstanding Dauber and Jam Nothing like quail on ice for a pup to start with. Very confident hold and carry. Lots to look forward to with this Zac dog.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Here's a couple of great pictures JAM got of Zac's first live bird. Thanks JAM.


Thanks for sharing Steve you have a nice looking pup!!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here's a couple of great pictures JAM got of Zac's first live bird. Thanks JAM.


2.5 yrs from now, Zac attack doing his job!


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> 2.5 yrs from now, Zac attack doing his job!


Outstanding work, Hal. Zak Attack as a time traveler. :yikes:

Dat boy's got talent. Good stuff in a cold and icy morning.

NB


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> 2.5 yrs from now, Zac attack doing his job!


 
Still lots of if's along the way. We need to continue with a good foundation. Plus we will need JAM there to take the picture.

He is improving with the hup and recall. Plus his enthusiasm and confidence is increasing with the few retrieves we do at a time. He made his first "blind" retrieve this morning in the kitchen

Thanks for the Zac compliments. JAM gets all the photograhy compliments.


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> How old is the springer pup in that video? Having an issue with my sound. Thanks.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I didn't hear Martin say how old she was other than she is a young dog. I know when I first tried to hold Zac like that a few weeks ago it took both arms and all I could do to keep him from running out.


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> How old is the springer pup in that video? Having an issue with my sound. Thanks.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


1st springer pup would be 5-6 months old, 2nd pup in the video would be in 8-10 month age range. Shape of the dogs heads are great indicators as to age of the pups.

The retriever pup in the Deeley vid is 5 months

And the retriever pup in photo is 4 months old with marks at about 80yrds out.

Those exercises can be use on retrieving breeds and spaniels of any age that are being prepared for a life of being a hunting gundog.


----------



## dauber

dauber said:


> I still haven't gone thru it to see where it was that I thought Martin mentioned the dog looking back for direction.


Got too it this morning. The parts I was refering to were in the Blind Retrieve section of the Advanced Spaniel Training Vid. At the 21:21, 26:30 and 31:19 points the young dog looked back for signals. Ian usually gave a quick hand signal and the dog would take off. At around the 31:00 mark Martin described how Ian was sending the pup out and tossing a ball over her head would lead to the pup looking back for direction which is somehting they wanted. Then at 34:02 the pup looked back without a whistle and Martin says that is what they were looking for. 

My guess is that in the UK trials, hunting styles, and cover they require quite a bit of directing the dog to hunt plus many of the retrieves are blinds and the dogs are used to taking direction often and each dog varies in how much they look for direction. 

One of the things I really liked in this video is how Ian constantly describes the dogs temperamant and how that influences how he is training each dog individually.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I didn't hear Martin say how old she was other than she is a young dog. *I know when I first tried to hold Zac like that a few weeks ago it took both arms and all I could do to keep him from running out.*





Imagine doing that exercise with a 65lb retriever:yikes:.. Introducing all things like this when they are young is really important. 

That why once they have the basics learning about birds and cover is simple stuff for the bright well informed spaniel!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> [/B][/U]
> 
> 
> Some of the issue here are were are looking at a dog that is in the early stages of advanced training. Let's back up and see how the UK trainers
> apply basic training to the dogs.
> Two short vids with Oppenshaw working with a Spaniel and Deeley working with a Retriever.
> 
> In the Oppenshaw Vid notice at the 29 sec mark of the introduction what the dog is doing immediately after flushing the rabbit and Ian shooting. There in lies a clue as to why the dogs are literally trained to look back from the beginning.
> 
> Spaniel pup and a Retriever pup both being started the same way, yet the job descriptions will be totally different when the training is finished.
> There is roughly about 10 yrs difference in the age of these vids. Neither one of these pups have been exposed to game of any sort as well.
> 
> Photo of an American Field trial trainer Jason Baker having a workout with 4 month old pup "Slim" Jason Works for Al Arthur SandHill Kennels Georgia
> 
> 
> "Without proper basics we will never know just how good a dog may become!" Rex Carr


These are excellent vids on starting young retrievers and spaniels. I did see in the Advanced Vid Ian had his pups looking back after much of his rabbit pen work. They have very high levels of control on the dogs. It was very interesting to see how much of his early work takes place in small areas doing very small incremental steps. Again everything he does is a result of his "reading" of where the dog is at and what is the current weakness that needs work.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I didn't hear Martin say how old she was other than she is a young dog. * I know when I first tried to hold Zac like that a few weeks ago it took both arms and all I could do to keep him from running out.*





If the pup is over powering forget the exercise for a day or 2 and introduce the young fireball to the check cord. Only allow the pup to retrieve when he comply's with hup command.

Incremental trainiing produces confidence not compliance remember the goal is to teach the pup to be underwhelmed by the activity not overwhelmed by the work success really depends on breaking it down into small bits and pieces


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Imagine doing that exercise with a 65lb retriever:yikes:.. Introducing all things like this when they are young is really important.
> 
> That why once they have the basics learning about birds and cover is simple stuff for the bright well informed spaniel!


Ya I've been that dumb before already:yikes:. About 30 years ago when I started my first chessy who was a couple pounds over 65, I learned the valuable lesson that I SHOULD HAVE begin steadying while she was a little smaller.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> If the pup is over powering forget the exercise for a day or 2 and introduce the young fireball to the check cord. Only allow the pup to retrieve when he comply's with hup command.


He never won a battle and is now doing pretty well. On another note he did his first "hup" while on the move and not paying attention today. We are about to introduce the whistle hup soon.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> He never won a battle and is now doing pretty well. On another note he did his first "hup" while on the move and not paying attention today. We are about to introduce the whistle hup soon.


Steve,

Do you overlay a hand signal for HUP later?? Do you find that valuable in your hunting program?


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## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Steve,
> 
> Do you overlay a hand signal for HUP later?? Do you find that valuable in your hunting program?


I have been using a hand signal right along, and have used it some without voice. I am trying to get those two down cold before the whistle. He is getting pretty snappy at it and I think about ready for whistle.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> I have been using a hand signal right along, and have used it some without voice. I am trying to get those two down cold before the whistle. He is getting pretty snappy at it and I think about ready for whistle.


Being able to stop a spaniel in its tracks, at a distance _and quietly_ is one of the most useful commands I know. Out West we usually are running in stealth mode (all wild birds only) and there are many times I want to HUP the dog and let guys get into position around a known rooster haunt.

One of mine will stop on a dime at 50 yds if he can see me give that hand signal. If I was a better trainer, the other one would too.

NB


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> 1st springer pup would be 5-6 months old, 2nd pup in the video would be in 8-10 month age range. Shape of the dogs heads are great indicators as to age of the pups.
> 
> The retriever pup in the Deeley vid is 5 months
> 
> And the retriever pup in photo is 4 months old with marks at about 80yrds out.
> 
> Those exercises can be use on retrieving breeds and spaniels of any age that are being prepared for a life of being a hunting gundog.


Great vids thanks for posting. 


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Being able to stop a spaniel in its tracks, at a distance _and quietly_ is one of the most useful commands I know. Out West we usually are running in stealth mode (all wild birds only) and there are many times I want to HUP the dog and let guys get into position around a known rooster haunt.
> 
> One of mine will stop on a dime at 50 yds if he can see me give that *hand signa*l. If I was a better trainer, the other one would too.
> 
> NB



Here is a Danish Cocker man and his dog. The Danes are very anal about control and precision. I offer this vid up just show the possibilities of what can be accomplished in this area of stopping a dog with either *voice,whistle or hand*. This is a very good exercise and the handler has developed very nicely to fit his needs. Exercises are based on creativity and goal orientation. An aside please do not get all concerned about the little dogs un-docked tail it is a European thing. 
For thos that might wonder this probable a 2.5-- 3.5 yr dog and I can guarantee you it was started very similarly to was demonstrated in the Oppenshaw Deeley Vids This dog has it's basics down cold.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Here is a Danish Cocker man and his dog. The Danes are very anal about control and precision. I offer this vid up just show the possibilities of what can be accomplished in this area of stopping a dog with either *voice,whistle or hand*. This is a very good exercise and the handler has developed very nicely to fit his needs. Exercises are based on creativity and goal orientation. An aside please do not get all concerned about the little dogs un-docked tail it is a European thing.
> For thos that might wonder this probable a 2.5-- 3.5 yr dog and I can guarantee you it was started very similarly to was demonstrated in the Oppenshaw Deeley Vids This dog has it's basics down cold.
> 
> RosenbÃ¦k Gaia - YouTube


I was more concerned as why he had one pant leg in his boot and the other out??? Just kidding....lol

I bought a Ken Roebuck video a few years back which has a lot of great training drills. One he demonstrates and works real well is hupping the dog on recall. Real simple, drill that can easily transfer from the yard to the field. If the dog doesn't hup, take him back to where he should have stopped. It's amazing how quick a dog catches on and you can use the hand visual and whistle command at the same time.


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Here is a Danish Cocker man and his dog. The Danes are very anal about control and precision. I offer this vid up just show the possibilities of what can be accomplished in this area of stopping a dog with either *voice,whistle or hand*. This is a very good exercise and the handler has developed very nicely to fit his needs. Exercises are based on creativity and goal orientation. An aside please do not get all concerned about the little dogs un-docked tail it is a European thing.
> For thos that might wonder this probable a 2.5-- 3.5 yr dog and I can guarantee you it was started very similarly to was demonstrated in the Oppenshaw Deeley Vids This dog has it's basics down cold.


Thanks Hal.

Gives me an idea or two re exercises to use in working with one of mine.

The tail docking issue is coming to these shores too, mores the pity.:rant:

NB


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Thanks Hal.
> 
> *Gives me an idea *or two re exercises to use in working with one of mine.
> 
> The tail docking issue is coming to these shores too, mores the pity.:rant:
> 
> NB



The reality of this thread is just that. To illuminate, expose and inform folks to the possibilities of Spanieling. Whether it is in the announcements of events that may be of interest, in the exchange of ideas that may help some one with their relationship with their doggie, or the illustration of some one being successful in handling or training.

Personally I am not interested in seeing our Spaniel breeds become all that popular with the pet companion hunting crowd, popularity does not bring it any rewards as far as I'm concerned. Size of the numbers is not as important as the quality of what numbers there are. What is more important is that the segment of the market that own Spaniels take dogs on as a project to develop all that individual dog can be. The Spaniel is capable of achieving high levels of behavioral standards, it must have humans to help them reach those levels of accomplishment.
So whether it is in breeding,training,hunting,trialing or testing we need to keep reaching for higher standards in our dogs.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> The reality of this thread is just that. To illuminate, expose and inform folks to the possibilities of Spanieling. Whether it is in the announcements of events that may be of interest, in the exchange of ideas that may help some one with their relationship with their doggie, or the illustration of some one being successful in handling or training.
> 
> Personally I am not interested in seeing our Spaniel breeds become all that popular with the pet companion hunting crowd, popularity does not bring it any rewards as far as I'm concerned. Size of the numbers is not as important as the quality of what numbers there are. What is more important is that the segment of the market that own Spaniels take dogs on as a project to develop all that individual dog can be. The Spaniel is capable of achieving high levels of behavioral standards, it must have humans to help them reach those levels of accomplishment.
> So whether it is in breeding,training,hunting,trialing or testing we need to keep reaching for higher standards in our dogs.


 
Good stuff the last few days guys. The Danish vid reminded me of some drills John Isaac's showed us down at his place one time. It always amazes me to see that very high level of control on spaniels and their continued happy demeanor. I love watching them work...doing anything from the control drills the Danish guy was doing to working an alder run putting up woodcock. Guess that's why I'm a spanieler

The ice is getting too thick now, had to actually drill holes and fish for them yesterday:evilsmile. Mmmm Mmmm another summer group feed taken care of.


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## michgundog

Here's a picture of a nice spaniel hupping to the whistle waiting on command. Very intense look on this girl.


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> View attachment 32632
> 
> 
> Here's a picture of a nice spaniel hipped to the whistle waiting on command. Very intense look on this girl.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good girl!! Nice and intense Mike.

It's good to work with em now so they are "underwhelmed" during hunting season.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Good stuff the last few days guys. The Danish vid reminded me of some *drills John Isaac's showed us down at his place* one time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah John was a good guy, a little aside about him was that he was stationed in the UK as a young man. I believe he was one the first here in the states to import the Bricksclose line of dogs (springers) here to the states His son-in- law Brent McCormack carry's on since his passing,doing well also I believe he got a win this past weekend with his Sniper dog..


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> dauber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good stuff the last few days guys. The Danish vid reminded me of some *drills John Isaac's showed us down at his place* one time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah John was a good guy, a little aside about him was that he was stationed in the UK as a young man. I believe he was one the first here in the states to import the Bricksclose line of dogs (springers) here to the states His son-in- law Brent McCormack carry's on since his passing,doing well also I believe he got a win this past weekend with his Sniper dog..
> 
> 
> 
> Hal isn't Brent's last name LeMaster?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Click to expand...


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> dauber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good stuff the last few days guys. The Danish vid reminded me of some *drills John Isaac's showed us down at his place* one time.
> 
> Ah John was a good guy, a little aside about him was that he was stationed in the UK as a young man. I believe he was one the first here in the states to import the Bricksclose line of dogs (springers) here to the states His son-in- law Brent McCormack carry's on since his passing,doing well also I believe he got a win this past weekend with his Sniper dog..
> 
> 
> 
> Yup used to love to listen to John's stories, he was a good guy. I rememeber he liked to show u show he taught his dogs to jump stone fences. He really liked doing those control drills too.
Click to expand...


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> gundogguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hal isn't Brent's last name LeMaster?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your right Mike it is LeMaster, Brent McCormack is a gun salesman up in GR.
Click to expand...


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## Gavan

the quiet handling at a distance thread. Especially when it involves hunting wild birds. Maybe it's just me but my dogs have way too much drive on birds to be stopped by a hand signal while working a running bird. When it comes to control vs. drive our goal is to achieve balance between the two. The Brits focus is toward more control and less bird drive. To that end they put lots of control on a dog before even exposing it to birds. Typical Americans put their dogs on birds before they're ready and often end up with control issues as a result.

Different strokes for different folks. It all depends on what you want in a finished hunting companion. I have no interest in a dog that pops after every little hunt while being handled to a bird on a retrieve or a blind. Likewise I would have little interest in a dog who while actively working a bird would look back to see if I wanted him to stop with a hand signal. That sounds like a puppy, and a poor one, to me.

The differences in British and American trials tend to change breeding strategies as well, and thus the breed itself. Many American trialers breed the dogs who have the most bird drive to each other until extremes are reached that has them looking for mates that are easier to control. On the other hand the Brits have dogs that are easier to control and look to add drive but still breeding dogs that will be successful in the confines of their sport.

Trap a bird in a British trial and the dog is out. Slow up on the flush in an American trial and you will go nowhere. Popping on a retrieve in an American trial is frowned upon heavily. British breeders have videos advertising their dog as a sire popping all over the place.

Different strokes for different folks...


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> the quiet handling at a distance thread. Especially when it involves hunting wild birds. *Maybe it's just me but my dogs have way too much drive on birds to be stopped by a hand signal while working a running bird.* *When it comes to control vs. drive our goal is to achieve balance between the two. The Brits focus is toward more control and less bird drive.* To that end they put lots of control on a dog before even exposing it to birds. Typical Americans put their dogs on birds before they're ready and often end up with control issues as a result.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks. It all depends on what you want in a finished hunting companion. I have no interest in a dog that pops after every little hunt while being handled to a bird on a retrieve or a blind. *Likewise I would have little interest in a dog who while actively working a bird would look back to see if I wanted him to stop with a hand signal. That sounds like a puppy, and a poor one, to me.*
> 
> The differences in British and American trials tend to change breeding strategies as well, and thus the breed itself. Many American trialers breed the dogs who have the most bird drive to each other until extremes are reached that has them looking for mates that are easier to control. On the other hand the Brits have dogs that are easier to control and look to add drive but still breeding dogs that will be successful in the confines of their sport.
> 
> Trap a bird in a British trial and the dog is out. Slow up on the flush in an American trial and you will go nowhere. Popping on a retrieve in an American trial is frowned upon heavily. British breeders have videos advertising their dog as a sire popping all over the place.
> 
> *Different strokes for different folks*...


 
Well said as usual Gavan. We all look for something a little (and some a lot) different in our dogs. 

My opinion is a little different on the bolded comments. I really like to be able to stop my dogs on a runner since I am not a "runner" or even fast walker to keep up even on wild grouse let alone pheasants. Now I can't give them a hand signal since they are concentrating on the track, and commonly out west the wind is howling and an Acme 210 pip can't be heard at 30 yards with the dogs in cattails so I have worked mine with the "vibrate" mode on a dogtra e-collar to hup, turn and come by collar alone, and yes I also will use the hand signals to help reinforce the command. Maybe one of the "different strokes for me is liking to have that UK blood close in the background to help an amateur such as me to keep the control I like. One of my most successful tactics is working birds to what I call a holding area. Without being able to keep the dogs from running them out and flushing out of range the tactic would not work. Hal taught us this at Rustic Ridge years ago, pheasants don't like to run downhill so if you work them to the top they will hold for a better shot, but if the dog runs up there before I get there the plan doesn't work. So often we work the lower levels meanwhile the pheasants move to the top. Then latter when we get up there using the wind to our best advantage usually ther are some good holding roosters.

I also don't like seeing the dog "popping" on a retrieve but I do like the dog paying close attention to me so I don't have to be on constant distance control, and in the woods grouse hunting mine will stop and more so listen to hear where I am. Personally I like that, but then I have never run a trial either and have not run many if any tests in the last decade either. 

Yup, different strokes for different folks. Thanks for the comments Gavan.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Gavan said:


> the quiet handling at a distance thread. Especially when it involves hunting wild birds. Maybe it's just me but my dogs have way too much drive on birds to be stopped by a hand signal while working a running bird. When it comes to control vs. drive our goal is to achieve balance between the two. The Brits focus is toward more control and less bird drive. To that end they put lots of control on a dog before even exposing it to birds. Typical Americans put their dogs on birds before they're ready and often end up with control issues as a result.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks...


Good discussion, Gavan and Steve.

I'll expand a bit on what I meant in my post above and where it (ie._ the silent HUP_ ) proves to be invaluable in my mind.

But first a disclaimer: There no way in he** I can stop one of my guys hot on a birds track, be it in the grouse woods or Out West. Nor, as Gavan said, would I want to. Thats the time to send out the flankers and "beat feet" to be right up on the action. 

On Grouse, in familiar covers, there are spots that often will hold a bird or two, be it a few apple trees, a grey dogwood thicket, a tangled grapevine, an AO hedgerow loaded with berries, etc etc. I like to approach these places silently, sit the dog and wait until myself and a partner or two can get into position to cover possible escape routes. Then release the dog with a quiet word and get ready. Once in awhile it even works!!

Same idea Out West. Last November we hunted around some dugouts (ponds) in the middle of picked cornfields. Approach in stealth mode. Great wild and thick vegetation, brambles, cattails, maybe some old farm equipment in there, perfect for a spaniel or Lab who wasnt afraid to stick their nose in it. One guy I know shot his limit and never moved from his spot. They had everything they wanted- food, cover and water. Good times for sure.

NB


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## Gavan

More power to you guys if you can stop your dogs without a whistle when you are hunting. You undoubtedly hunt a lot more than I do since I have to travel to find good bird habitat and I have this nasty field trial habit and the training that goes with it taking up a lot of my time. You guys take the hunting strategy and control of your dogs to another level.

One comment I will make is that sometimes when you stop your spaniel he/she will be working a bird and you will be unaware. In my experience no matter what method you use to stop the dog if you do it often enough you will affect the dogs flush to some degree. My dogs actually react more negatively to the e-collar on the vibration mode than a nick. Probably because I so rarely use vibration and they have not been conditioned to it and are out of balance. If you shout them down or use whistle and they are ready to flush a bird you interrupt the flush and could still develop a flushing problem if you do it often enough.

There was once a great field trial champion who won 7 trials in one year. Part of his training was stopping on runners and as it was drilled into him he began to voluntarily hup without being asked. Smart spaniel anticipating the command. Long story short his flush went to hell and he was out of the game in short order. Don't ask me who it was because I won't tell you.....(-:

Moral of the story is that I will do things with a springer gun dog that I won't do with a springer trial dog because the margin for error is very slim when it comes to field trial dogs especially where it relates to the flush. Just my two cents.


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> More power to you guys if you can stop your dogs without a whistle when you are hunting. You undoubtedly hunt a lot more than I do since I have to travel to find good bird habitat and I have this nasty field trial habit and the training that goes with it taking up a lot of my time. You guys take the hunting strategy and control of your dogs to another level.
> 
> One comment I will make is that sometimes when you stop your spaniel he/she will be working a bird and you will be unaware. In my experience no matter what method you use to stop the dog if you do it often enough you will affect the dogs flush to some degree. My dogs actually react more negatively to the e-collar on the vibration mode than a nick. Probably because I so rarely use vibration and they have not been conditioned to it and are out of balance. If you shout them down or use whistle and they are ready to flush a bird you interrupt the flush and could still develop a flushing problem if you do it often enough.
> 
> There was once a great field trial champion who won 7 trials in one year. Part of his training was stopping on runners and as it was drilled into him he began to voluntarily hup without being asked. Smart spaniel anticipating the command. Long story short his flush went to hell and he was out of the game in short order. Don't ask me who it was because I won't tell you.....(-:
> 
> Moral of the story is that I will do things with a springer gun dog that I won't do with a springer trial dog because the margin for error is very slim when it comes to field trial dogs especially where it relates to the flush. Just my two cents.


You are spot on with the hup on a hot track. I try hard not to do that, but I will give them the "come around" to in my mind keep them on the course I want to run. Now if they are on that hot of a bird I don't call them off, that is why I like them in close range so I can have a good chance at a shot. It is more the cold trails that don't produce in a pretty short time where I turn them off. That is the goal anyway, what happens is sometimes different as my plans don't always work out.

I like seeing the strong flush and is one of the reasons I use a spaniel over retrievers, so I try not to mess it up too much. I know from experience using the hup to always keep a dog in range doesn't help make a strong flush.

Thanks for the 2 cents, it was worth more than that to me.


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## JAM

Great discussion, guys. Thanks!


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> . *Typical Americans put their dogs on birds before they're ready and often end up with control issues as a result.*
> 
> *Different strokes for different folks.
> *
> 
> *Trap a bird in a British trial and the dog is out. Slow up on the flush in an American trial and you will go nowhere. Popping on a retrieve in an American trial is frowned upon heavily.*
> 
> *Different strokes for different folks*...


Different strokes for different folks, and thank goodness we have a breed that is capable of all the strokes.
having busted many a UK litter up, bringing some dogs here and leaving the other litter mates there. Then go about the training and then the placing into trial homes Bottum line was pups from the same breedings were successful on two continents competing in a different game all be it the same, find em flush em retrieve em,.
Whether the dog is high head running acreage cruiser, or low head cover busting beater The Cocker and the Springer is the only breed ask to title here and in the UK Under a different training paradigm and under different hunting conditions the merry little spaniel adapts quite successfully
Good show guys keep on keeping on!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> *Different strokes for different folks, and thank goodness we have a breed that is capable of all the strokes.*


Thankfully this is the case!


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## dauber

how do you handle it when your dog is taking a runner that runs off the course and the judge say call em off and continue on down the course?


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## Gavan

You have to read your dog as to whether they have something or not. If you commit to taking a bird off the course and don't produce it some judges will kill you for it. They may let you come back onto the course and continue but your hopes will die in the "parking lot" when the judges do call backs. You can win a trial producing a runner on a tough scenting day but you will go down in a blaze of glory more often than not. If you're sure the dog has something by all means go with him. If you are not sure don't spend too much time fooling with it because you are just proving that you're dog can't take it and that's not good either.

Scenting conditions have a lot to do with how to approach this situation. Some days dogs will be blowing birds out taking body scent but can't track a bird 3 feet. If the dog stays close enough to take body scent you can produce a runner but if the bird ran off even a minute ago you will need luck and a dumb bird to produce a runner in those conditions. This is where luck plays a part. If no dog has produced a runner and you can produce one you could win or place.

The most important thing is work your dog every chance you get so you know your dog and know the difference between "I might have something and I GOT IT DAD!


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## Gavan

If you started a runner on course and committed to it only to lose it your probably in trouble. A good judge might cut you a break if scenting is poor and the bird got out on a road or another obstacle that typically cause a dog to lose a bird. I have actually given a dog credit for a contact in a situation like that where the dog took a runner very positively for a distance and lost it suddenly on a day where nobody took a runner at all. As a judge I don't assume anything. Perhaps the bird flew off, or got past an obstacle, or ran down a road, etc. I would rather the dog show me the track and take the bird to the road than outrun it's nose and never indicate the bird at all.

My job as a judge is not to eliminate everyone until there are only 4 dogs left. I will take the total performance into consideration when choosing dogs to advance or place.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> You have to read your dog as to whether they have something or not. If you commit to taking a bird off the course and don't produce it some judges will kill you for it. They may let you come back onto the course and continue but your hopes will die in the "parking lot" when the judges do call backs. You can win a trial producing a runner on a tough scenting day but you will go down in a blaze of glory more often than not. If you're sure the dog has something by all means go with him. If you are not sure don't spend too much time fooling with it because you are just proving that you're dog can't take it and that's not good either.
> 
> Scenting conditions have a lot to do with how to approach this situation. Some days dogs will be blowing birds out taking body scent but can't track a bird 3 feet. If the dog stays close enough to take body scent you can produce a runner but if the bird ran off even a minute ago you will need luck and a dumb bird to produce a runner in those conditions. This is where luck plays a part. If no dog has produced a runner and you can produce one you could win or place.
> 
> The most important thing is *work your dog every chance you get *so you know your dog and know the difference between "I might have something and I GOT IT DAD!


 Great question Dauber +1 on Gavan's reply With out the training under varied conditions it is really tough to understand your dogs reads as to what is happening out there on the track..runners off the course are usually a 'darn if you do and darned if you don't situation The harsh reality of trialing Go for the glory or crash and burn. If you play the percentages glory really tough to come by.



Gavan said:


> If you started a runner on course and committed to it only to lose it your probably in trouble. A good judge might cut you a break if scenting is poor and the bird got out on a road or another obstacle that typically cause a dog to lose a bird. I have actually given a dog credit for a contact in a situation like that where the dog took a runner very positively for a distance and lost it suddenly on a day where nobody took a runner at all. As a judge I don't assume anything. Perhaps the bird flew off, or got past an obstacle, or ran down a road, etc. I would rather the dog show me the track and take the bird to the road than outrun it's nose and never indicate the bird at all.
> 
> My job as a judge is not to eliminate everyone until there are only 4 dogs left. I will take the total performance into consideration when choosing dogs to advance or place.[/QUOTE
> 
> Very Good Gavan on the after thought.


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## dauber

Thanks guys. That was the kind of info I was looking for.



Gavan said:


> You have to read your dog as to whether they have something or not. If you commit to taking a bird off the course and don't produce it some judges will kill you for it. They may let you come back onto the course and continue but your hopes will die in the "parking lot" when the judges do call backs. You can win a trial producing a runner on a tough scenting day but you will go down in a blaze of glory more often than not. If you're sure the dog has something by all means go with him. If you are not sure don't spend too much time fooling with it because you are just proving that you're dog can't take it and that's not good either.
> 
> Scenting conditions have a lot to do with how to approach this situation. Some days dogs will be blowing birds out taking body scent but can't track a bird 3 feet. If the dog stays close enough to take body scent you can produce a runner but if the bird ran off even a minute ago you will need luck and a dumb bird to produce a runner in those conditions. This is where luck plays a part. If no dog has produced a runner and you can produce one you could win or place.
> 
> The most important thing is work your dog every chance you get so you know your dog and know the difference between "I might have something and I GOT IT DAD!


 
So it sounds like being able to "read your dog" is an important part of handling in a trial. Also reading the conditions and how your dog acts in them.




Gavan said:


> If you started a runner on course and committed to it only to lose it your probably in trouble. A good judge might cut you a break if scenting is poor and the bird got out on a road or another obstacle that typically cause a dog to lose a bird. I have actually given a dog credit for a contact in a situation like that where the dog took a runner very positively for a distance and lost it suddenly on a day where nobody took a runner at all. As a judge I don't assume anything. Perhaps the bird flew off, or got past an obstacle, or ran down a road, etc. I would rather the dog show me the track and take the bird to the road than outrun it's nose and never indicate the bird at all.
> 
> My job as a judge is not to eliminate everyone until there are only 4 dogs left. I will take the total performance into consideration when choosing dogs to advance or place.


Good insight on judges thinking! Thanks Gavan.



gundogguy said:


> Great question Dauber +1 on Gavan's reply With out the training under varied conditions it is really tough to understand your dogs reads as to what is happening out there on the track..runners off the course are usually a 'darn if you do and darned if you don't situation The harsh reality of trialing Go for the glory or crash and burn. If you play the percentages glory really tough to come by.
> 
> Very Good Gavan on the after thought.


Thanks Gundogguy! Sounds like I got a lot to learn if ever going to dip my toes in trialing.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Thanks Gundogguy! Sounds like I got a lot to learn if ever going to dip my toes in trialing.



Not to worry. Having to take a runner off the course does happen. Though after gunning trials for twelve years some 30 trials I can recall going on a "hunt' with Handler and Judge as a wing gun one or 2 times thru out the course of a trial. I would as a handler rather 'screw" the pooch on a track and trail than pass a bird in the middle of the course.

Usually handler errors fall into two categories Error of commission and Error of Omission. Commission is doing something at the wrong time or inappropriate for the situation. Omission is the the sin of doing nothing at the right or wrong time.. Personally I would rather crash and burn in a trial doing something than walking down the course doing nothing. so if my dog says bird I'm going "all in" because I learned along time ago to trust the dog I have today. If I did not trust him I would NOT be trialing him in the 1st place. Probable the most committed error in the training/handling world whether you are hunting or trialing is the error of Omission. I observe handlers and dogs failing because of omission at every training session I have ever conducted. The only way to understand the difference between the two is by training and getting feed back from your training partners, and developing the necessary "feel" for what your dog is doing or not doing.

So set your goal on trialing, and if your student tells you he is not a trial dog don't fret it, you'll have one fine hunting companion after all your training work.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Not to worry. Having to take a runner off the course does happen. Though after gunning trials for twelve years some 30 trials I can recall going on a "hunt' with Handler and Judge as a wing gun one or 2 times thru out the course of a trial. I would as a handler rather 'screw" the pooch on a track and trail than pass a bird in the middle of the course.
> 
> Usually handler errors fall into two categories Error of commission and Error of Omission. Commission is doing something at the wrong time or inappropriate for the situation. Omission is the the sin of doing nothing at the right or wrong time.. Personally I would rather crash and burn in a trial doing something than walking down the course doing nothing. so if my dog says bird I'm going "all in" because I learned along time ago to trust the dog I have today. If I did not trust him I would NOT be trialing him in the 1st place. Probable the most committed error in the training/handling world whether you are hunting or trialing is the error of Omission. I observe handlers and dogs failing because of omission at every training session I have ever conducted. The only way to understand the difference between the two is by training and getting feed back from your training partners, and developing the necessary "feel" for what your dog is doing or not doing.
> 
> *So set your goal on trialing, and if your student tells you he is not a trial dog don't fret it, you'll have one fine hunting companion after all your training work*.


That is the plan, sure has worked well for me with the last 3 cockers. 

Thanks for the comments Hal.

Speaking of gunning here is a shot of you in action a few years back.


----------



## Gavan

and typed a brilliant treatise on the differences between cocker and springer field trials in the US and their counterparts in Britain. It was eaten by Michigan Sportsman I think because I am staying signed in on my work computer and it's not recognizing me at home even when I sign in. 

Since I am limited to only one flash of brilliance per day I will be "brief". You can watch those British videos and train your dog that way and be competitive in US cocker trials. If you are running a springer and aspire to what you see in the British videos of slow flush and popping you will not be happy with the results of your US springer field trial career. That is all.... (-:


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> That is the plan, sure has worked well for me with the last 3 cockers.
> 
> Thanks for the comments Hal.
> 
> Speaking of gunning here is a shot of you in action a few years back.


Who is that good looking guy with the basket behind his honor the Judge!!



Gavan said:


> and typed a brilliant treatise on the differences between cocker and springer field trials in the US and their counterparts in Britain. It was eaten by Michigan Sportsman I think because I am staying signed in on my work computer and it's not recognizing me at home even when I sign in.
> 
> Since I am limited to only one flash of brilliance per day I will be "brief". You can watch those British videos and train your dog that way and be competitive in US cocker trials. If you are running a springer and aspire to what you see in the British videos of slow flush and popping you will not be happy with the results of your US springer field trial career. That is all.... (-:


 Absolutely brilliant!!


----------



## Gavan

nfm


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> and typed a brilliant treatise on the differences between cocker and springer field trials in the US and their counterparts in Britain. It was eaten by Michigan Sportsman I think because I am staying signed in on my work computer and it's not recognizing me at home even when I sign in.
> 
> Since I am limited to only one flash of brilliance per day I will be "brief". You can watch those British videos and train your dog that way and be competitive in US cocker trials. If you are running a springer and aspire to what you see in the British videos of slow flush and popping you will not be happy with the results of your US springer field trial career. That is all.... (-:


Darn Gavan...I enjoy reading your brilliance! A couple months ago JAM and her Bullet dog (ESS trial winning dog) ran a brace with me and Dante for a demonstration to a group of hunters, Dante ran very well but we had trouble keeping up with JAM and Bullet. That convinced me about the cockers running in the same trials as springers. 



gundogguy said:


> Who is that good looking guy with the basket behind his honor the Judge!!


Yes that was way back in my younger days when I planted and shagged at cocker trials:yikes: I haven't shagged in many years. Maybe I'll get a circuit at next years cocker Nationals.


----------



## dauber

Yes that was Paul.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Darn Gavan...I enjoy reading your brilliance! A couple months ago JAM and her Bullet dog (ESS trial winning dog) ran a brace with me and Dante for a demonstration to a group of hunters, Dante ran very well but we had trouble keeping up with JAM and Bullet. That convinced me about the cockers running in the same trials as springers.


Dauber, You're being VERY kind about Bullet. I don't train with him anymore and he hadn't run a trial/brace in a few years. He's my go to hunting boy, though.

A strictly hunting dog trainer (mostly pointing dogs) that belongs to a local gun dog club that I also belong to asked me to do a demo with Bullet. That club does a few "fun trials" each year and this trainer was the score keeper during one of Bullet's runs. He liked how Bullet handled and wanted to show his few flushing dog clients how nice it is to have a dog hup/sit to the whistle or flight of the bird - especially not chase the bird till out of sight. I talked Steve and Karen into joining this group and thought it would be nice to show these people how we run a brace.

The day was VERY windy and rainy. The demo was a complete flop. My usually very obedient Bullet was completely out of control. He punched down the field and put his birds up WAY out of gun range while I honked on that whistle like it was a fire drill. Poor Dante's birds were gone while he ran a very nice pattern trying to find them.

It was quite embarrassing for me.


----------



## dauber

It wasn't that bad JAM! The gunners weren't usual spaniel gunners who know how to work when a brace has a little seperation. Yous were trying to slow down a bit for us and we were trying to go a little faster and neither one did very well. I could easily see the seperation thing happening often in a mixed cocker/springer trial. Those legs and the standards of where each trial program is currently at just aren't the same. It sure is fun watching the springers move across the ground.

We need to try that again sometime when the cover will hold birds on the property and Smoke is much closer to the speed of Bullet.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> It wasn't that bad JAM! The gunners weren't usual spaniel gunners who know how to work when a brace has a little seperation. Yous were trying to slow down a bit for us and we were trying to go a little faster and neither one did very well. I could easily see the seperation thing happening often in a mixed cocker/springer trial. Those legs and the standards of where each trial program is currently at just aren't the same. It sure is fun watching the springers move across the ground.
> 
> We need to try that again sometime when the cover will hold birds on the property and Smoke is much closer to the speed of Bullet.


I agree that springer/cocker mixed trials are not a good idea. However, you're still being very kind about Bullet's performance. You have a very good point about getting gunners that'll work with you. Hopefully we can get those guys trained next spring. 

We'll work on braces more this spring & summer and then REALLY show them what a brace supposed to look like.


----------



## JAM

Dauber, I'm anxious for you to see Bob S.'s dog, Chinook, run. She's a REAL spaniel. She's like a little slap-stick dog combing the field for birds. She took 2 second places in the Open in 2011 (I think). She's the mother of the pup you met at Black Duck - Roady. He also has Sam who's quite young - maybe 2 now.

Looking forward to spring and training!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Dauber, I'm anxious for you to see Bob S.'s dog, Chinook, run. She's a REAL spaniel. She's like a little slap-stick dog combing the field for birds. She took 2 second places in the Open in 2011 (I think). She's the mother of the pup you met at Black Duck - Roady. He also has Sam who's quite young - maybe 2 now.
> 
> *Looking forward to spring and training*!


 
We're looking forward to working with you and Bob as well as all the dogs! Also looking forward to less snow!! 28" in our front yard out here in the wide open farmland where it is blown. 3-4' in the woods right now.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> nfm


+1 His honor Paul Harris and the co- judge was Don Bramwell. If i recall Marty Bell went 1st, "Topo Gigio" Kim Wiley pictured went 2nd that day. 
Thanks for posting Dauber


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> +1 His honor Paul Harris and the co- judge was Don Bramwell. If i recall Marty Bell went 1st, "Topo Gigio" Kim Wiley pictured went 2nd that day.
> Thanks for posting Dauber


Here is judge Bramwell. That was 2004 and between planting and shagging I don't recall placements but I do think Martin did win both days with different dogs.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is judge Bramwell. That was 2004 and between planting and shagging I don't recall placements but I do think Martin did win both days with different dogs.


That's right Marty kick butt and took names that weekend. His dog on saturday had one of the finest honors that I have ever witness.
Dog on the left flush a bird, left wing shoots , Marty's dog drops 25 yrds out in front Me ,I'm center gun< his dog is seated staring hard at the ground in front, the dog on the other course is struggling on the retrieve may be five minutes. Finally the otherdog catches up with the bird and delivers. at that point Judge Harris instructs Marty to release his dog. The dog takes one step forward and produces a pheasant, dog immediately re seats himself, the bird flys the guns goes bang, dog is sent on a retrieve absolutely brilliant work by dog and handler spot on mark perfect delivery, right down the middle of the course, roughly 45 yards
Marty actual put on a clinic that weekend. One of most enjoyable performances that I have witnessed in Spanieling

Great photo of Don the ol'Kansas oil man


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## dauber

in the garden for some drills.


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## JAM

dauber said:


> in the garden for some drills.
> 
> Training in the garden - YouTube


Nice video. Love the quiet control.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Nice video. Love the quiet control.


You'll love this one Paul at here work as well, Its a scream

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--K7dMWOszQ"]Glencoe farms N.Dakota Paul McGagh Vicky Thomas - YouTube[/ame]

Thanks Dauber for finding some of Paul's work


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> You'll love this one Paul at here work as well, Its a scream
> 
> Glencoe farms N.Dakota Paul McGagh Vicky Thomas - YouTube
> 
> Thanks Dauber for finding some of Paul's work


Yes I love that one! That's about how our free run goes but I can only handle 2 dogs at once, one for each eye


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> You'll love this one Paul at here work as well, Its a scream
> 
> Glencoe farms N.Dakota Paul McGagh Vicky Thomas - YouTube
> 
> Thanks Dauber for finding some of Paul's work


NICE! Love it!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> You'll love this one Paul at here work as well, Its a scream
> 
> Glencoe farms N.Dakota Paul McGagh Vicky Thomas - YouTube
> 
> Thanks Dauber for finding some of Paul's work


100X

LUV to watch Paul at work with his dogs. The "Garden vid" looks like it was done in England when Paul was a bit younger. That garden sure doesnt look anything like NoDak!!

The Glencoe Farms video is simply an amazing demonstation of control. A MOB of ECS and ESS sitting or standing at attention- waiting, waiting, waiting,.............. And then pandemonium, down the hill and into the water. :yikes: LUVed the water entry on some of the pups.

Paul and Vicky have an amazing operation at Glencoe Farms. And you won't find nicer people anywhere.

NB


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> 100X
> 
> LUV to watch Paul at work with his dogs. The "Garden vid" looks like it was done in England when Paul was a bit younger. That garden sure doesnt look anything like NoDak!!
> 
> The Glencoe Farms video is simply an amazing demonstation of control. A MOB of ECS and ESS sitting or standing at attention- waiting, waiting, waiting,.............. And then pandemonium, down the hill and into the water. :yikes: LUVed the water entry on some of the pups.
> 
> Paul and Vicky have an amazing operation at Glencoe Farms. And you won't find nicer people anywhere.
> 
> NB


I think the garden is at the winter Cally home. 

This one is a hoot too.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l02f77Tvi-U"]Dogs this morning - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Another good one right there, Steve. Great Fun

You are probably right about the Garden vid. But it would pass for a castle in England just the same.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> I think the garden is at the winter Cally home.
> 
> This one is a hoot too.
> 
> Dogs this morning - YouTube


That's a lot of spaniels! 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## JAM

Great videos, Dauber. They came at a perfect time, too. Winter has finally arrived here in Gladstone so it's tough to do anything outside making it nice for watching spaniel videos. Just a few weeks ago the grass was poking through the dusting of snow. That's all over! We actually have snow banks. The 20 yr. old snow blower died so we're reduced to plowing with a small plow on our tractor (large garden type) something like the ones they put on 4-wheelers. Glad we had a backup!

There have been a few discussions on other boards in the past about amateurs running professionally trained dogs in amateur trials. A friend and amateur trialer used to call their dogs "semi-amateur". That was until he sent his dog to a pro. 

I enjoy training my own dogs but have no doubt I could never achieve the kind of control exhibited by Paul M. Watching those dogs focus on him is awesome.


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> Great videos, Dauber. They came at a perfect time, too. Winter has finally arrived here in Gladstone so it's tough to do anything outside making it nice for watching spaniel videos. Just a few weeks ago the grass was poking through the dusting of snow. That's all over! We actually have snow banks. The 20 yr. old snow blower died so we're reduced to plowing with a small plow on our tractor (large garden type) something like the ones they put on 4-wheelers. Glad we had a backup!
> 
> There have been a few discussions on other boards in the past about amateurs running professionally trained dogs in amateur trials. A friend and amateur trialer used to call their dogs "semi-amateur". That was until he sent his dog to a pro.
> 
> I enjoy training my own dogs but have no doubt I could never achieve the kind of control exhibited by Paul M. Watching those dogs focus on him is awesome.


Seems like that issue pops up from time to time on MS too. What forum were they discussing that on JAM? I enjoy working with my dogs and training with others. I guess at what point would a dog be considered "semi amateur" trained? 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## JAM

michgundog said:


> Seems like that issue pops up from time to time on MS too. What forum were they discussing that on JAM? I enjoy working with my dogs and training with others. I guess at what point would a dog be considered "semi amateur" trained?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Hey MGD, There's a FB page for spaniel trialling. A topic came up about pros returning to an amateur status after a long hiatus from training professionally. That made me think about the pro-trained dogs running in the amateur trials discussions from long ago (I can't remember where or when that was going on - a while ago though).

_I guess at what point would a dog be considered "semi amateur" trained? _ was the gist of the discussion. I would like to take some handling lessons from a pro. I can't afford to send my dog to a pro for training so even if I want to, aint gonna happen. 

Just having a bored afternoon with too much indoor time.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Great videos, Dauber. They came at a perfect time, too. Winter has finally arrived here in Gladstone so it's tough to do anything outside making it nice for watching spaniel videos. Just a few weeks ago the grass was poking through the dusting of snow. That's all over! We actually have snow banks. The 20 yr. old snow blower died so we're reduced to plowing with a small plow on our tractor (large garden type) something like the ones they put on 4-wheelers. Glad we had a backup!
> 
> There have been a few discussions on other boards in the past about amateurs running professionally trained dogs in amateur trials. A friend and amateur trialer used to call their dogs "semi-amateur". That was until he sent his dog to a pro.
> 
> I enjoy training my own dogs but have no doubt I could never achieve the kind of control exhibited by Paul M. Watching those dogs focus on him is awesome.


Yes another 8" yesterday and last night. Glad the Kubota keep going! 32" on the level in our front yard, well over 4 feet in the woods, this is like north of Newberry and we are the "near banana belt". We now have enough snow to cover the glare ice so the dogs have some traction. We did some multiple board work with some simple blinds. Zac had his first outdoors blind today but then he ain't got that many places he can run where his head is above the snow. I think we might as well go icefishing tomorrow!:lol:


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> Hey MGD, There's a FB page for spaniel trialling. A topic came up about pros returning to an amateur status after a long hiatus from training professionally. That made me think about the pro-trained dogs running in the amateur trials discussions from long ago (I can't remember where or when that was going on - a while ago though).
> 
> _I guess at what point would a dog be considered "semi amateur" trained? _ was the gist of the discussion. I would like to take some handling lessons from a pro. I can't afford to send my dog to a pro for training so even if I want to, aint gonna happen.
> 
> Just having a bored afternoon with too much indoor time.


I remember the discussion on here a while back too. If my memory is correct it was a touchy subject. I think it's a fine line for sure. I haven't competed in enough trials to make a sound opinion on it. I know if I were to ever have a dog good enough to place in a trial in an AA, it would be a heck of an accomplishment due to the quality of the dogs entered.

I 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

VERY controversial. 

There aren't enough spaniel trials around to start worrying about whether or not your amateur dog was professionally trained. It's nice that there's a guideline about no pros being eligible to run the amateur. That's going to just have to be good enough.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> VERY controversial.
> 
> There aren't enough spaniel trials around to start worrying about whether or not your amateur dog was professionally trained. It's nice that there's a guideline about no pros being eligible to run the amateur. That's going to just have to be good enough.


That would be a tough one, would it count to be coached by a pro, or what a lot of the cocker people do is send the pup off for a year then the amateur keeps and runs them from then on. It wasn't too long ago that there was no amateur in the cocker trials, now there are a few held. There was talk of a non-sactioned amateur national but that fell thru. 

At the Retriever National Amateur last summer there were a number of "coaches" there helping out the handlers. That is all fine by me, anything that helps people improve their performance is good.


----------



## dauber

1st Phoebe handled by Tom Ness
2nd Dexter handled by Tom Ness
3rd Nicky handled by Steve Collins
4th Drumm handled by Tom Ness

Big day for Mr. Ness. 
Congrats to Michigander Steve Collins and his very nice Nicky dog.

I don't have the second day's results.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> 1st Phoebe handled by Tom Ness
> 2nd Dexter handled by Tom Ness
> 3rd Nicky handled by Steve Collins
> 4th Drumm handled by Tom Ness
> 
> Big day for Mr. Ness.
> Congrats to Michigander Steve Collins and his very nice Nicky dog.
> 
> I don't have the second day's results.


Steve where was the trial at?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Steve where was the trial at?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Texas last weekend. Results haven't been too fast coming north...still haven't heard on the second day.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Texas last weekend. Results haven't been too fast coming north...still haven't heard on the second day.


Was that "the heart of Texas" trial?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Was that "the heart of Texas" trial?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yupper it was the "Heart of Texas" trials, day one.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Yupper it was the "Heart of Texas" trials, day one.


They must run cockers and springers at that one or gave separate trials for both ? My buddy mike's dog Julep placed 3rd in the puppy stake. He is on a serious roll with that dog!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> *They must run cockers and springers at that one or gave separate trials for both ? *
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Heart Of Texas hosted a Cocker trial on Friday Springer on Saturday and Sunday. There has been no decision publicly made about combining the breeds.
Seeing the results Tom Ness must have the hot hand!


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I remember the discussion on here a while back too. If my memory is correct it was a touchy subject. I think it's a fine line for sure. *I haven't competed in enough trials to make a sound opinion on it. *I know if I were to ever have a dog good enough to place in a trial in an AA, it would be a heck of an accomplishment due to the quality of the dogs entered.
> 
> I
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


There in lies the crux of the challenge. Having been in enough situations to possess the insightfulness on whether a dog is competitive or not.
Every spaniel person on this forum if they have had at least 5 dogs prolly had a dog that a "pro' could have taken to the next level. Whats wrong with that? sure if it is a money issue that's just business but that does not mean that some one with the money cheated or played the game unfair, maybe they just wanted the dog to have a chance to show off it's potential. maybe they just wanted to see the dog developed to best of it's ability.
A good example of that showed up on the thread the opther day...HOW many *hours* did it take Paul M to train that Pack of dogs to wait for a release... what a parlor trick that was..heh. How many amatures spend 8-10 hours or more per day every day with there dogs. It can not be done training 1-2 times per week stakes are to tough and prize is to high how many have the grounds, bird facilities and helpers to get'er done.
I'm not a Circuit Pro though if I were to run a dog in trial I could only enter the Open AA I consider myself a "Journeyman" Pro I abhor travel of any kind. In a previous life I put on 100's 1000's of mile both for work and for trial sleeping in my own bed is the life for me, would much rather work on really hard canine problems and that's what I do .. If you do not believe try to teach some how to handle a dog in the field , there is plenty of challenge in that occupation.
In the UK there is no Amateur stake, folks just have to work harder and smarter if they expect to be competitive and.. they do!

As far as Retired Pros coming back as amateurs after a waiting period I see no problem with that. It is the same as a relative of the pro they should be allowed to run in the amateur as well, as far as i can see.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> 1st Phoebe handled by Tom Ness
> 2nd Dexter handled by Tom Ness
> 3rd Nicky handled by Steve Collins
> 4th Drumm handled by Tom Ness
> 
> Big day for Mr. Ness.
> Congrats to Michigander Steve Collins and his very nice Nicky dog.
> 
> I don't have the second day's results.


Steve,

Great start to the season for Tom Ness. Those dogs are the AAA team, getting qualified for the big time. The Nationals this year are in his backyard, literally.

Is Martin Bell still training and trialing? How about Grabowski (sp)? Kinda surprised one of them didnt get a piece. They are both Texans.

NB


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Steve,
> 
> Great start to the season for Tom Ness. Those dogs are the AAA team, getting qualified for the big time. The Nationals this year are in his backyard, literally.
> 
> Is Martin Bell still training and trialing? How about Grabowski (sp)? Kinda surprised one of them didnt get a piece. They are both Texans.
> 
> NB


Martin isn't doing much if any field, him and Shelly just do obedience trianing now. Buck and Elaine helped put on the trial, Elaine was trial secretary.


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Heart Of Texas hosted a Cocker trial on Friday Springer on Saturday and Sunday. There has been no decision publicly made about combining the breeds.
> Seeing the results Tom Ness must have the hot hand!


And I hope it stays that way. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> There in lies the crux of the challenge. Having been in enough situations to possess the insightfulness on whether a dog is competitive or not.
> Every spaniel person on this forum if they have had at least 5 dogs prolly had a dog that a "pro' could have taken to the next level. Whats wrong with that? sure if it is a money issue that's just business but that does not mean that some one with the money cheated or played the game unfair, maybe they just wanted the dog to have a chance to show off it's potential. maybe they just wanted to see the dog developed to best of it's ability.
> A good example of that showed up on the thread the opther day...HOW many *hours* did it take Paul M to train that Pack of dogs to wait for a release... what a parlor trick that was..heh. How many amatures spend 8-10 hours or more per day every day with there dogs. It can not be done training 1-2 times per week stakes are to tough and prize is to high how many have the grounds, bird facilities and helpers to get'er done.
> I'm not a Circuit Pro though if I were to run a dog in trial I could only enter the Open AA I consider myself a "Journeyman" Pro I abhor travel of any kind. In a previous life I put on 100's 1000's of mile both for work and for trial sleeping in my own bed is the life for me, would much rather work on really hard canine problems and that's what I do .. If you do not believe try to teach some how to handle a dog in the field , there is plenty of challenge in that occupation.
> In the UK there is no Amateur stake, folks just have to work harder and smarter if they expect to be competitive and.. they do!
> 
> As far as Retired Pros coming back as amateurs after a waiting period I see no problem with that. It is the same as a relative of the pro they should be allowed to run in the amateur as well, as far as i can see.


Good points Hal. Not to mention something you told me a long time ago. For someone to make a legitimate shot at the game a person has to put aside all hunting endeavors. Not only do I like sleeping in my own bed, I like to get out hunting too much to give it all up. Even spring trials are tough to get to, with a turkey hunting addiction. I have no problem with a retired pro running as an Am. Most of the pros I've met are really good guys and are willing to share their knowledge.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Good points Hal. Not to mention something you told me a long time ago. *For someone to make a legitimate shot at the game a person has to put aside all hunting endeavors. *
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Let me clarify that, hunting with the dog you are campaigning in trials with. It might not be a good thing to take that dog hunting. You have a number of dogs take those guys for a hunt instead. Keep your trial dog focused on trialing and training. Until such time as the dog tells you he not a trial dog. The person does NOT have to give up hunting whether it be in the fall or spring, if that what you enjoy.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Let me clarify that, hunting with the dog you are campaigning in trials with. It might not be a good thing to take that dog hunting. You have a number of dogs take those guys for a hunt instead. Keep your trial dog focused on trialing and training. Until such time as the dog tells you he not a trial dog. The person does NOT have to give up hunting whether it be in the fall or spring, if that what you enjoy.


 Believe me Tom Ness hunts more than most of us, he runs a full time guide service, when he isn't hunting he is fishing. Like Hal says though he doesn't hunt his current trial dogs much. AR Ginn and Steve Collins are hunting fools, thats all thye talk about even walking in the gallery. But you need to be retired like AR and Steve or do it for a living like Tom, otherwise the weekly trials do cut into your hunting time.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Let me clarify that, hunting with the dog you are campaigning in trials with. It might not be a good thing to take that dog hunting. You have a number of dogs take those guys for a hunt instead. Keep your trial dog focused on trialing and training. Until such time as the dog tells you he not a trial dog. The person does NOT have to give up hunting whether it be in the fall or spring, if that what you enjoy.


I have a little experience with that. The year Bullet won the trial, and we were done trialling for the year I took him hunting with my older, untrained dog and let them run together. At that time, Bullet had 4 MH passes in a row and only needed one more for his title. I was very confident (foolish me  ) that Bullet would perform flawlessly as usual. Saturday HT, he broke on his second bird. Sunday HT, he broke on his first bird. We had an early ride home with NO ribbons.

Lesson learned: Don't hunt your trial/HT dog - especially with an untrained/unsteady dog.


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## Duece22

JAM said:


> I have a little experience with that. The year Bullet won the trial, and we were done trialling for the year I took him hunting with my older, untrained dog and let them run together. At that time, Bullet had 4 MH passes in a row and only needed one more for his title. I was very confident (foolish me  ) that Bullet would perform flawlessly as usual. Saturday HT, he broke on his second bird. Sunday HT, he broke on his first bird. We had an early ride home with NO ribbons.
> 
> Lesson learned: Don't hunt your trial/HT dog - especially with an untrained/unsteady dog.


Do you think the thought process of not hunting the dog you are campaigning is similar in other trial formats for other breeds or is it more specific to spaniels? 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

Duece22 said:


> Do you think the thought process of not hunting the dog you are campaigning is similar in other trial formats for other breeds or is it more specific to spaniels?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I've never even so much as observed a trial of any other breed so I really don't know. Also, I don't think taking my trial dog hunting was the problem. The REAL problem I created for myself was running the trained/steady dog with the untrained/unsteady dog - especially since they're both my pets and probably a little naturally competitive. In my opinion, that's probably not breed specific.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I've never even so much as observed a trial of any other breed so I really don't know. Also, I don't think taking my trial dog hunting was the problem. The REAL problem I created for myself was running the trained/steady dog with the untrained/unsteady dog - especially since they're both my pets and probably a little naturally competitive. In my opinion, that's probably not breed specific.


Being I've never run a trial take this for what it is worth, but what some of the cocker trialers tell me is they hunt their trial dog alone and then it will take a week or so of work to get them firmed up again. One of the dogs that Martin Bell won at Michigan with was on his way back to his owner who was taking him out west pheasant hunting and Martin was saying it would take him at least a week or two to hopefully get him ready for the nationals that year. 

I can usually keep them doing well pheasant hunting, but with especially early season grouse hunting, not being able to see the dog all the time, grouse flushing and sitting on limbs teasing, and wild flushes cause lots of problems with steadyness and good hunting to the guns. 

As for other breeds trials, I don't believe many of the retrievers at the NARC spend much time in the duck blind during the trial season. Like spaniels the jobs they have in high level trials is very detailed and there is no room for error so with the amounts of money invested in the training for and participating in trials it isn't worth it to take a chance of causing a problem. This certainly isn't saying that any of those retrievers at the NARC wouldn't have been outstanding dogs in any duck blind just as any of the top spaniels wouldn't be outstanding upland dogs in any field or woods. I cannot speak for the pointing dog trials.


----------



## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> Do you think the thought process of not hunting the dog you are campaigning is similar in other trial formats for other breeds or is it more specific to spaniels?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


It is only problematic for breeds that are judged on precise marking and retrieving skills. And those behaviors require steadiness either at the line,non-slip Retriever trials, or at the flush, Spaniel trials. In trials where retrieving is not a factor in the judging process hunting would be the training technique. 
Hunting _could_ also be a factor in affecting the running styles of the non-slip retriever or flushing spaniel. 
Now it is all in the definitions but are talking an occasional hunt or are we talking 2-3 times per week?



Dauber;4515376 

As for other breeds trials, I don't believe many of the retrievers at the NARC spend much time in the duck blind during the trial season. _* Like spaniels the jobs they have in high level trials is very detailed and **there is no room for error so with the amounts of money invested in the training for and participating in trials it isn't worth it to take a chance of **causing a problem. *_

Basically that's it in a nutshell. why take the time to make a masterpiece just to sign the work with a can of spray paint.. Why risk it! Even for well experienced handlers there is risk of the dog learning avoidances whilst hunting.


----------



## dauber

Here they are; 

*Heart of Texas second day Feb 16th.*
1st Chloe Tom Ness
2nd Phoebe Tom Ness
3rd Dina Buck Grabowski
4th Tillie AR Ginn
Guns Award Pixie Larry Yost


*ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 22nd*1st Chloe Tom Ness
2nd Mitts Tom Ness
3rd Duke Kim Wiley
4th Dexter Tom Ness
Guns Award Duke Kim Wiley

*ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 23rd*
1st Nikki Steve Collins
2nd Megan AR Ginn (One of the great fbecs, she is a UK NC and NFC in USA)
3rd Mitts Tom Ness
4th Dexter Tom Ness
Guns Award Nikki Steve Collins


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Here they are;
> 
> *Heart of Texas second day Feb 16th.*
> 1st Chloe Tom Ness
> 2nd Phoebe Tom Ness
> 3rd Dina Buck Grabowski
> 4th Tillie AR Ginn
> Guns Award Pixie Larry Yost
> 
> 
> *ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 22nd*1st Chloe Tom Ness
> 2nd Mitts Tom Ness
> 3rd Duke Kim Wiley
> 4th Dexter Tom Ness
> Guns Award Duke Kim Wiley
> 
> *ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 23rd*
> 1st Nikki Steve Collins
> 2nd Megan AR Ginn (One of the great fbecs, she is a UK NC and NFC in USA)
> 3rd Mitts Tom Ness
> 4th Dexter Tom Ness
> Guns Award Nikki Steve Collins


Congrats to all!


----------



## JAM

Yesterday my husband was throwing snowballs for the dogs. As Stormy jumped up and down catching them he "grew" this giant snowball in his rear feathers. It got so heavy he couldn't get off the ground anymore. He had to stay in the heated garage until it melted. Funny!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Yesterday my husband was throwing snowballs for the dogs. As Stormy jumped up and down catching them he "grew" this giant snowball in his rear feathers. It got so heavy he couldn't get off the ground anymore. He had to stay in the heated garage until it melted. Funny!


Poor Stormy Quite the workout though.

That sure was some sticky snow! On BBDN it stuck on everything yesterday! Maybe that's why Mrs D and I were some of the very few on the ice:fish2:


----------



## Gavan

on the subject of hunting trial dogs. I hunt my current trial and actually use him for guiding hunts as well. As JAM suggested hunting your steady trial dog with an unsteady house or kennel mate is not a good idea. I also never hunt or guide with any dog without an e-collar.

There are situations or trial dogs where I would not hunt them. First, a dog that is not truly steady. Steadiness is a combination of repetition and honesty. Some dogs are not honest and will never be 100% steady. If you want to trial this dog then don't hunt them. You have to be careful with young dogs because they have not had enough repetition in enough different locations and under enough different stress factors to be trusted. If you hunt the young dog and create a problem you will have to exert pressure to fix it and you might solve the breaking problem and create another...like slow flush, etc. Mouth is another place where hunting can create problems. If your dog has a mouth problem like, hard mouth, butter mouth, circling, avoidance,laying birds down when their hot, etc. don't hunt them because you will undoubtedly not be demanding enough to require perfect delivery and things will slide and get worse. I will mention range but if you are not willing to enforce a specific range on your dog while hunting you're going to have a host of other problems as well.

Having said all that I have more concern with my current dog becoming trial wise due to the excessive excitement created at trials than I ever would with hunting him. I hunted him on grouse in the woods and prairies for pheasants and guided with him another 10 times or so and he never broke. Many times he was out of my sight when a bird went down and I forgot to send him and he would be sitting waiting to be sent. That is steady. Having said that I am still apprehensive heading into trial season as he gets very amped up at trials with all of the people and the bracemate that he wants to dominate. Everything comes into play at that point center line issues when his birds run across to his bracemates course, guns shooting birds on top of him, guns shooting birds on the next plant, plants running off, etc. All of this is more tempting and stressful than anything that happens to him while hunting.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> on the subject of hunting trial dogs. I hunt my current trial and actually use him for guiding hunts as well. As JAM suggested hunting your steady trial dog with an unsteady house or kennel mate is not a good idea. I also never hunt or guide with any dog without an e-collar.
> 
> There are situations or trial dogs where I would not hunt them. First, a dog that is not truly steady. Steadiness is a combination of repetition and honesty. Some dogs are not honest and will never be 100% steady. If you want to trial this dog then don't hunt them. You have to be careful with young dogs because they have not had enough repetition in enough different locations and under enough different stress factors to be trusted. If you hunt the young dog and create a problem you will have to exert pressure to fix it and you might solve the breaking problem and create another...like slow flush, etc. Mouth is another place where hunting can create problems. If your dog has a mouth problem like, hard mouth, butter mouth, circling, avoidance,laying birds down when their hot, etc. don't hunt them because you will undoubtedly not be demanding enough to require perfect delivery and things will slide and get worse. I will mention range but if you are not willing to enforce a specific range on your dog while hunting you're going to have a host of other problems as well.
> 
> Having said all that I have more concern with my current dog becoming trial wise due to the excessive excitement created at trials than I ever would with hunting him. I hunted him on grouse in the woods and prairies for pheasants and guided with him another 10 times or so and he never broke. Many times he was out of my sight when a bird went down and I forgot to send him and he would be sitting waiting to be sent. That is steady. Having said that I am still apprehensive heading into trial season as he gets very amped up at trials with all of the people and the bracemate that he wants to dominate. Everything comes into play at that point center line issues when his birds run across to his bracemates course, guns shooting birds on top of him, guns shooting birds on the next plant, plants running off, etc. All of this is more tempting and stressful than anything that happens to him while hunting.


And the great thing is Gavan, you have the experience to understand your dog so well and your training background helps to understand your dog so well.
IF you dog does develop trial wiseness you will be the first to recognize that fact.. I have cured only one trial wise dog in my life.. Not many would like the cure.
With this powerhouse dog that you have at the present time, would the "newbie" trialer be able to get away with what you do now with a similar dog?


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here they are;
> 
> *Heart of Texas second day Feb 16th.*
> 1st Chloe Tom Ness
> 2nd Phoebe Tom Ness
> 3rd Dina Buck Grabowski
> 4th Tillie AR Ginn
> Guns Award Pixie Larry Yost
> 
> 
> *ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 22nd*1st Chloe Tom Ness
> 2nd Mitts Tom Ness
> 3rd Duke Kim Wiley
> 4th Dexter Tom Ness
> Guns Award Duke Kim Wiley
> 
> *ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 23rd*
> 1st Nikki Steve Collins
> 2nd Megan AR Ginn (One of the great fbecs, she is a UK NC and NFC in USA)
> 3rd Mitts Tom Ness
> 4th Dexter Tom Ness
> Guns Award Nikki Steve Collins



Thanks Steve for updating the info. as I recall these trials did not happen last year due to "drought conditions"and lack of cover.
Hopeful they had good stuff to run the dogs in.


----------



## Gavan

(-:


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> (-:


Thank-you!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Poor Stormy Quite the workout though.
> 
> That sure was some sticky snow! On BBDN it stuck on everything yesterday! Maybe that's why Mrs D and I were some of the very few on the ice:fish2:


So, you must have caught a lot of fish with no competition on the ice.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> So, you must have caught a lot of fish with no competition on the ice.


Not bad...Karen got 3 more master angler burbot.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Not bad...Karen got 3 more master angler burbot.


Nice! Good for her!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Not bad...Karen got 3 more *master *angler burbot.


 Is there a test for that also. Smells a little fishy:lol:!!
I appreciate wet dog smell but not to fond of wet _fishy_ smelling dog!:lol:


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Is there a test for that also. Smells a little fishy:lol:!!
> I appreciate wet dog smell but not to fond of wet _fishy_ smelling dog!:lol:


 
Just a standard to meet, no test. The appreciation of wet fishy smelling dogs is an acquired aesthetic sense.


----------



## gundogguy

I be concerned about the Danish invasion. short video of a young lady, Christina Hansson that is fairly passionate about dog training and helping other Danes get that way also.
I speak no Danish but I have a good idea about what is being shared.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs-YBsl8fvI"]Christina Hansson. Spaniel workshop i Danmark - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Here they are;
> 
> *Heart of Texas second day Feb 16th.*
> 1st Chloe Tom Ness
> 2nd Phoebe Tom Ness
> 3rd Dina Buck Grabowski
> 4th Tillie AR Ginn
> Guns Award Pixie Larry Yost
> 
> 
> *ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 22nd*1st Chloe Tom Ness
> 2nd Mitts Tom Ness
> 3rd Duke Kim Wiley
> 4th Dexter Tom Ness
> Guns Award Duke Kim Wiley
> 
> *ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 23rd*
> 1st Nikki Steve Collins
> 2nd Megan AR Ginn (One of the great fbecs, she is a UK NC and NFC in USA)
> 3rd Mitts Tom Ness
> 4th Dexter Tom Ness
> Guns Award Nikki Steve Collins


Wow it looks like Tom Ness cleaned up. Thanks for posting Steve.


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----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> I be concerned about the Danish invasion. short video of a young lady, Christina Hansson that is fairly passionate about dog training and helping other Danes get that way also.
> I speak no Danish but I have a good idea about what is being shared.


 
They're from ON to OFF!! That was about all I caught but her passion is contagious!! Cool vid Hal!


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> They're from ON to OFF!! That was about all I caught but her passion is contagious!! Cool vid Hal!


I marvel at the vids you guys root out! 

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## gundogguy

yooperguy2003 said:


> I marvel at the vids you guys root out!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


companion dog focus,trust and recall..

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-bZfUXLDx4"]Building focus, trust and of course RECALL - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> companion dog focus,trust and recall..
> 
> Building focus, trust and of course RECALL - YouTube


I like that one. It seems like a simple drill. It seems like it's the simple drills that I never think of!  Thanks!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> companion dog focus,trust and recall..


Ahhh...clicker training. For me this is a way to improve my "timing" for praise instead of doing too much people thinking like over analyzing his performance and thinking of what to do next. I used the clicker, treats, and a praise command in teaching hup to Zac. 

Thanks for finding that vid.


----------



## dauber

dauber said:


> Here they are;
> 
> *Heart of Texas second day Feb 16th.*
> 1st Chloe Tom Ness
> 2nd Phoebe Tom Ness
> 3rd Dina Buck Grabowski
> 4th Tillie AR Ginn
> Guns Award Pixie Larry Yost
> 
> 
> *ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 22nd*1st Chloe Tom Ness
> 2nd Mitts Tom Ness
> 3rd Duke Kim Wiley
> 4th Dexter Tom Ness
> Guns Award Duke Kim Wiley
> 
> *ECSCA Waller SSC Texas Feb 23rd*
> 1st Nikki Steve Collins
> 2nd Megan AR Ginn (One of the great fbecs, she is a UK NC and NFC in USA)
> 3rd Mitts Tom Ness
> 4th Dexter Tom Ness
> Guns Award Nikki Steve Collins


Now the rest of last weekend trials results have been posted.

*ECSA Waller SSC Amateur Texas Feb 24*
1st Jethro- Dennis Joannides
2nd Gillie- AR Ginn
3rd Cedric- Bethann Wiley
4th Mitts- Rod Beck

*Valley Forge FTA Feb 23rd*
1st Finn- Fred Bradley
2nd Kate- Terry Oliver
3rd Ricki- Fred Bradley
4th Darcy- Walt Leytham
Puppy winner Ammo- Jim Karlovec

*Valley Forge FTA Feb 24th*
1st Kate- Terry Oliver
2nd Gussie- Fred Bradley
3rd Sunny- Ralph Botti
4th Cody- Pete Rizzo
Puppy 1st Sunny- Ralph Botti
2nd Ammo- Jim Karlovec


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Now the rest of last weekend trials results have been posted.
> 
> *ECSA Waller SSC Amateur Texas Feb 24*
> 1st Jethro- Dennis Joannides
> 2nd Gillie- AR Ginn
> 3rd Cedric- Bethann Wiley
> 4th Mitts- Rod Beck
> 
> *Valley Forge FTA Feb 23rd*
> 1st Finn- Fred Bradley
> 2nd Kate- Terry Oliver
> 3rd Ricki- Fred Bradley
> 4th Darcy- Walt Leytham
> Puppy winner Ammo- Jim Karlovec
> 
> *Valley Forge FTA Feb 24th*
> 1st Kate- Terry Oliver
> 2nd Gussie- Fred Bradley
> 3rd Sunny- Ralph Botti
> 4th Cody- Pete Rizzo
> Puppy 1st Sunny- Ralph Botti
> 2nd Ammo- Jim Karlovec



Thanks Steve, Valley Forge trial must have been interesting, Much like it was back when George and troops spent the winter there, wow!
Spring is here spuds get planted in 28 days...Haha


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Now the rest of last weekend trials results have been posted.
> 
> *ECSA Waller SSC Amateur Texas Feb 24*
> 1st Jethro- Dennis Joannides
> 2nd Gillie- AR Ginn
> 3rd Cedric- Bethann Wiley
> 4th Mitts- Rod Beck
> 
> *Valley Forge FTA Feb 23rd*
> 1st Finn- Fred Bradley
> 2nd Kate- Terry Oliver
> 3rd Ricki- Fred Bradley
> 4th Darcy- Walt Leytham
> Puppy winner Ammo- Jim Karlovec
> 
> *Valley Forge FTA Feb 24th*
> 1st Kate- Terry Oliver
> 2nd Gussie- Fred Bradley
> 3rd Sunny- Ralph Botti
> 4th Cody- Pete Rizzo
> Puppy 1st Sunny- Ralph Botti
> 2nd Ammo- Jim Karlovec


I saw that Ammo dog of Karlovec's last spring, he's a keeper!!!


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## bob-o

want to breed our two year old l/w springer , sadie is akc very birdy , loveable little girl , we are breeding for fun and not $$$ we also want to keep a pup any help would be appreciated


----------



## gundogguy

bob-o said:


> want to breed our two year old l/w springer , sadie is akc very birdy , loveable little girl , we are breeding for fun and not $$$ we also want to keep a pup any help would be appreciated



Go to your original thread "looking springer sire"

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=458060


----------



## Birddog8487

michgundog said:


> I saw that Ammo dog of Karlovec's last spring, he's a keeper!!!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I have also seen Ammo and came within a whisker of useing him instead of Gator on our Suzie. Jim suggested using Gator and taking a female from that breeding back to Ammo some time in the future. It was a tough call, both dogs being exceptional youngsters, but its his line and I bow to his expertise. Ammo is a great dog to be sure, a hard muscled fireball but with that great cocker personality. I thought the wife was going to dognap him when we dropped Sue off.


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## gundogguy

Birddog8487 said:


> I have also seen Ammo and came within a whisker of useing him instead of Gator on our Suzie. Jim suggested using Gator and taking a female from that breeding back to Ammo some time in the future. It was a tough call, both dogs being exceptional youngsters, but its his line and I bow to his expertise. Ammo is a great dog to be sure, a hard muscled fireball but with that great cocker personality. I thought the wife was going to dognap him when we dropped Sue off.



How old is Gator? How old is Ammo dog?..Well Ammo is under 2yrs of age if he is still running in puppies,guess i answered my own question..
Though I wonder what age is the Gator dog?


----------



## Birddog8487

gundogguy said:


> How old is Gator? How old is Ammo dog?..Well Ammo is under 2yrs of age if he is still running in puppies,guess i answered my own question..
> Though I wonder what age is the Gator dog?


Gator is about the same age as Ammo. A couple months separate them.


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## gundogguy

Birddog8487 said:


> Gator is about the same age as Ammo. A couple months separate them.


Thanks Birddog, makes sense that Jim would have postured for the older dog.


----------



## yooperguy

Thought I'd post an updated photo or two of my pup Belle. She's 16 weeks old now and a bundle of energy. She gives our 2 yo German Shepherd a run for her money every day!



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## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Thought I'd post an updated photo or two of my pup Belle. She's 16 weeks old now and a bundle of energy. She gives our 2 yo German Shepherd a run for her money every day!


She sure is a cutie! Belle looks like she loves the snow too. Thanks for post the pic's.


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## gundogguy

When finessing the delivery of the hare. Quiet, confident delivery to hand is just very essential. Notice the small steps away from the dog to encourage that fine delivery of a very large "package". Brilliant!


----------



## gundogguy

yooperguy2003 said:


> Thought I'd post an updated photo or two of my pup Belle. She's 16 weeks old now and a bundle of energy. She gives our 2 yo German Shepherd a run for her money every day!
> 
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks for the pics..Lets get some of her carrying objects for you! That is Quintessential spaniel work retrieving for you the boss!


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Here is another use of the trained retrieve:evilsmile
> 
> Springer Spaniel brings beer - YouTube


That's versatility! :lol:


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is another use of the trained retrieve:evilsmile
> 
> Springer Spaniel brings beer - YouTube



Well Spaniels can have Champaigne tastes and beer pocket books...
The lady brought her own glass.
Thanks Dauber for showing a great example of the trained retrieved..


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Here is another use of the trained retrieve:evilsmile
> 
> Springer Spaniel brings beer - YouTube


Atta girl, Bella! Good dog! :lol:


----------



## JAM

I'm tired of all the snow. I found this picture from 3-12-12. No wonder I've forgotten what a REAL winter's all about. 










This year there's still about 2 feet of white crap on the ground in the same place this picture was taken. UGH!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I'm tired of all the snow. I found this picture from 3-12-12. No wonder I've forgotten what a REAL winter's all about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This year there's still about 2 feet of white crap on the ground in the same place this picture was taken. UGH!


Nice picture JAM! I dream of seeing some brown grass Maybe in the next month!


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Nice picture JAM! I dream of seeing some brown grass Maybe in the next month!


I'm with you guys! There is still a mountain of it here too. 

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## michgundog

Just a reminder please see attached link:

http://www.greatlakesawsc.org/PDFs/GLAWSC HT Premium.pdf

I will be posting a sticky soon for the SMSSTC's test soon. The dates are may 18th and 19th. Both tests will be held at Colonial Farms.


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## gundogguy

Simple, inexpensive, and effective. The handler and dog in the beginning stages of steadiness in the field. Using bumpers in the early stages.
Addition of guns and birds some where down the road in the future. Dog demonstrates that he is 
willing to do the work and is "underwhelmed' by the factors involved.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Simple, inexpensive, and effective. The handler and dog in the beginning stages of steadiness in the field. Using bumpers in the early stages.
> Addition of guns and birds some where down the road in the future. Dog demonstrates that he is
> willing to do the work and is "underwhelmed' by the factors involved.


 
Yes this is a very good exercise. I do a variant of this during our late summer early fall woods walks. Once the dog flushes a grouse or woodock and is steady to the flush and the blank pistol shot, I will about every other or every third flush toss out a retrieve, or sometimes 2 as a reward for a job well done. Any mess ups no retrieves. Sometimes if we don't find any birds on the walk I will fire a shot with the blank gun, and if dog sits well to the shot I will toss a single or double mark. Sometimes I toss the bumper while they are looking and fire a shot to simulate them seeing a bird flying by that is shot. All nice little drills to maintain good control.

Nice vid Hal thanks for posting.


----------



## Gavan

with Gavan in the Amateur. 32 dog trial that was well contested. Very proud of him. We need one point for AFC. Hopefully we can finish at New Jersey this weekend.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> with Gavan in the Amateur. 32 dog trial that was well contested. Very proud of him. We need one point for AFC. Hopefully we can finish at New Jersey this weekend.


 
Fantastic news! Good job Gavan. Can't wait to see the AFC in front of Gavan's name. Go get em in NJ.


----------



## Gavan

photo is attached. Hunting is his purpose, field trials his hobby.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Gavan said:


> with Gavan in the Amateur. 32 dog trial that was well contested. Very proud of him. We need one point for AFC. Hopefully we can finish at New Jersey this weekend.


WAY2GO GAVAN (THE HANDLER) AND GAVAN (THE SPANIEL)

Good Luck in NJ. That area is a hotbed of spanieldom. So very close to that AFC, Good show.

NB


----------



## michgundog

Gavan said:


> with Gavan in the Amateur. 32 dog trial that was well contested. Very proud of him. We need one point for AFC. Hopefully we can finish at New Jersey this weekend.


Congratulations!!! Good luck.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> photo is attached. Hunting is his purpose, field trials his hobby.


Way to go Gavan! Nice to see a wild bird dog hunter that can compete at high standards!!


----------



## JAM

Gavan said:


> with Gavan in the Amateur. 32 dog trial that was well contested. Very proud of him. We need one point for AFC. Hopefully we can finish at New Jersey this weekend.


AWESOME! Congrats, Gavan!


----------



## yooperguy

Congratulations!

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----------



## kellyM87

Almost.


----------



## kellyM87

There.


----------



## kellyM87

2000!!! Wahoo!


----------



## yooperguy

kellyM87 said:


> Almost.





kellyM87 said:


> There.





kellyM87 said:


> 2000!!! Wahoo!


I was wondering where you were headed with that! 

Lots of good stuff fill the preceding 200 pages...


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## kellyM87

Dang, this is 2000. Guess the count on the list of threads doesn't count the original, just the replies.


----------



## kellyM87

yooperguy2003 said:


> I was wondering where you were headed with that!
> 
> Lots of good stuff fill the preceding 200 pages...
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


You beat me too it! That isnt even fair.


----------



## yooperguy

kellyM87 said:


> You beat me too it! That isnt even fair.


LOL! I didn't mean to... I was posting earlier using my android tablet and it doesn't show the post numbers like the browser version does. :lol:

I just figured you were spot on with post # 2000!


----------



## gundogguy

with uniformed ground coverage.Dog throughly underwhelmed by the process.
I appreciate the consistencies that exist with both of the dogs this man is working with.
Ya think it comes from being a consistence handler?


----------



## JAM

Enjoyed the videos, Hal. Thanks for sharing them. All that nice, snow-free cover is KILLING me! LOL


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Enjoyed the videos, Hal. Thanks for sharing them. All that nice, snow-free cover is KILLING me! LOL


 


Yes very nice calm handling, a joy to watch.

Hopefully we are within a month of seeing some grass Now to go blow out anywhere from 4 feet to 4 inches:SHOCKED: At least the wind is under 40mph!


----------



## Gavan

in this latest video would be of value for a hunter to train his dog to hunt grouse in thick cover. If that is what one is looking for then go for it. Eventually even in heavy cover a springer with drive will be out from under your feet and hunting and the continuum will move from control to hunting drive. The key is to keep enough control to make your hunts pleasurable and effective.
Having said that a springer under that much control in a field trial would go nowhere and put the judge to sleep. The dog has to show initiative and drive in its hunting and the "control" is there but barely noticeable. The pattern that this dog is running would also be of little value on wild pheasants on the western prairies. You and the dog would be worn out with all that running back and forth and the pheasants would all be running ahead of you into the next county.
It would be interesting to see what this would look like with guns on either side added to the equation. Perhaps that would loosen the dog up some to at least orient to the guns and away from the handler.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> in this latest video would be of value for a
> 
> 
> Having said that a springer under that much control in a field trial would go nowhere and put the judge to sleep. The dog has to show initiative and drive in its hunting and the "control" is there but barely noticeable. The pattern that this dog is running would also be of little value on wild pheasants on the western prairies. You and the dog would be worn out with all that running back and forth and the pheasants would all be running ahead of you into the next county.
> It would be interesting to see what this would look like with guns on either side added to the equation. Perhaps that would loosen the dog up some to at least orient to the guns and away from the handler.


Gavan, you do have a firm grasp of the obvious. dog and handler are very "english", the tip off is there are no wing guns in sight.
Both the videos posted are of yearling dogs that chances are have never made a bird in a training session. Both posted as examples of Spaniel gundog training not Spaniel field trial training.
I donot have the "key" to Youtube and all of the video's of American Spaniel field training, there are a few, though i would like see more. I wish I did but good solid examples of spaniel Field trials and the training involved are just very rare. 
Quite honestly due to speed of the dogs in trial and density of cover at some venues and the proximity of the camera at safe distances in relationship to the gunning makes very difficult to record Spaniel trials or American style training.
Years back Brookshire and Vercamp and some others, in Ohio did a nice little diddy on Spaniel trialing using a boom truck and ProCamera equipment, Russ V. had access to when he was at P&G,was good but still left alot that new folks would not get unless there was more explanation.
At you next trial takes some footage or get someone to some of Gavan in one of the 3 series that you will run> That would be great.
Best luck as you both finish out this spring.. 
Getting ZETA ready to go back and see Mike in W. Virginia she should be out rocking & rolling spring and fall 2014 At this time she has no vices.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> in this latest video would be of value for a hunter to train his dog to hunt grouse in thick cover. If that is what one is looking for then go for it. Eventually even in heavy cover a springer with drive will be out from under your feet and hunting and the continuum will move from control to hunting drive. The key is to keep enough control to make your hunts pleasurable and effective.
> Having said that a springer under that much control in a field trial would go nowhere and put the judge to sleep. The dog has to show initiative and drive in its hunting and the "control" is there but barely noticeable. The pattern that this dog is running would also be of little value on wild pheasants on the western prairies. You and the dog would be worn out with all that running back and forth and the pheasants would all be running ahead of you into the next county.
> It would be interesting to see what this would look like with guns on either side added to the equation. Perhaps that would loosen the dog up some to at least orient to the guns and away from the handler.


 
First off the handler says in the comments that the dog was about 6 months old at the time of that video. He also states that at around a year old he was running twice as fast. You can sure see the McGagh influence in his handling style. 

I have to disagree to a point on the value of a spaniel running that pattern being usless on prairie pheasants. First off at least in my experince it is quite easy to get them running a bigger pattern, it is quite difficult to keep them in range and under sufficient control on prairie pheasants with their tendency to run all over h*ll. It can be quite frustrating with those roosters that run 30 yards out front of the dog and flush, with a 30 yard dog you ain't got much time to to ID the rooster and get a shot off when they get up at 60 yards. 

I see that video as a snap shot in time in the development of a spaniel. In my experince it is a constant balancing act of control and almost out of control. I would guess that dog at 6 months had been taught quite a bit and was a little on the tentative side. I bet with a few birds he was opening up quite a bit. I do agree that exact style at that time is even a little tight for my likes, but I like the control he has and how underwhelmed the dog was. I can't comment on if that dog could make a trial dog, but I bet knowing where he is at he is a pretty good prairie pheasant dog.


----------



## Gavan

are more relating to range than control. On wild pheasants the dog has to range especially in the downwind to cut the running birds off. Otherwise dog and handler are just pushing them up the field and never get a shot. In all honesty that happens to some folks in field trials especially with young dogs that have never been hunted. I just judged a All-Age chukar trial where several of the Amateur handlers and dogs never got out far enough to make a proper find in the downwind. As a result we had lots of dogs making "pattern finds" and very short finds which puts you in the "maybe pile". The "maybe pile" when you are running on chukars is everybody who didn't pass a bird or fail a retrieve. (-:


----------



## Gavan

few good videos on springer field trials, wind pattern, etc. The Verkamp video you mentioned was done for the AKC and had Art Rodger, Harold Hiles, Mark Brookshire, et al. As you mentioned it does have some ground work in it.
Didn't want to come off too negative about the video that was posted. As I said a hunter who primarily hunts grouse and woodcock would be well served by starting their pup with that kind of control. They probably would do better with an "english" approach where the dog gets lots of training before getting into birds. The dog will increase it's range soon enough and maybe if you start them quartering at your feet they won't range as far when they "open up" later in their development.
As we've discussed before the Brits put lots of control on their pups before introducing birds, we Americans ,by and large, get them quartering between the guns, flushing and chasing birds, and then try to put the control on after the fact. The Brits are far over toward control on the continuum and we are more toward developing independence with just enough control to get the job done. Just my opinion.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> are more relating to range than control. On wild pheasants the dog has to range especially in the downwind to cut the running birds off. Otherwise dog and handler are just pushing them up the field and never get a shot. In all honesty that happens to some folks in field trials especially with young dogs that have never been hunted. I just judged a All-Age chukar trial where several of the Amateur handlers and dogs never got out far enough to make a proper find in the downwind.* As a result we had lots of dogs making "pattern finds" and very short finds which puts you in the "maybe pile". The "maybe pile" when you are running on chukars is everybody who didn't pass a bird or fail a retrieve. (-:*




:lol::lol::lol: That made me laugh saw the same thing out in Kansas years ago, *pattern finds and maybe pile*. I think it was 1999 it convinced me that pen raised chukars were just not a good flushing dog's bird to trial on.. 
and I'm right if I wasn't every trial that takes place would have'em as their go to birds at half the cost of pheasants..
No harm no foul! Gavan best of trialing to you and Gavan

I'll give nurse Cratchet the heads-up and find that old Harold Hiles Vercamp video ...it's around here some place.


----------



## JAM

Are you guys referring to the video put out by the AKC called, "On the Line with ESS"? If so, I have it.

Being brand new to the game when I got it, I watched it over and over. I still take a peek at it from time to time. It's kind of "bland" with some "not so great" acting, but does manage to demonstrate what an American trial is all about. Wind direction is addressed and they made a stab at what over handling looks like. There's not a whole lot more about what makes a dog/handler shine.

I love the looks of the dark liver dog with quite a bit of ticking. I have no idea what the dog's name is. Any ideas?

Now I'll have to dig it out and watch it - AGAIN!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Are you guys referring to the video put out by the AKC called, "On the Line with ESS"? If so, I have it.
> 
> Being brand new to the game when I got it, I watched it over and over. I still take a peek at it from time to time. It's kind of "bland" with some "not so great" acting, but does manage to demonstrate what an American trial is all about. Wind direction is addressed and they made a stab at what over handling looks like. There's not a whole lot more about what makes a dog/handler shine.
> 
> I love the looks of the dark liver dog with quite a bit of ticking. I have no idea what the dog's name is. Any ideas?
> 
> Now I'll have to dig it out and watch it - AGAIN!


Yes that's the one JAM. I just watched it again...it does show American field trial springers much better than most of the British vids.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Dauber,

Long over due thanks for the pdf you sent me. I had not seen those maps on the MI web site. I was able to use those pdf images showing cut age and over lap those on to my GPS. So now when I am out in the field I can tell where the next cut is and how old the stand is by looking on the gps unit.

Jam,

I waved to you this past weekend not sure you could see me through the snow. Drove over to WI and ran some HRC upland hunt test down in Eagle, WI. Was cold both days sunny on Sunday. The club said last year same weekend they had 75deg weather. We had to run the test in the scrub behind the DNR hut, the field still had to much snow. Was an interesting test birds where you didn't expect to see one. They did not hold well so we had birds (chukar) running around from the dogs that ran before you.

Almost had a grouse on the grill when passing Dauber's neck of the woods. The truck grill that is.


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Dauber,
> 
> Long over due thanks for the pdf you sent me. I had not seen those maps on the MI web site. I was able to use those pdf images showing cut age and over lap those on to my GPS. So now when I am out in the field I can tell where the next cut is and how old the stand is by looking on the gps unit.
> 
> Jam,
> 
> I waved to you this past weekend not sure you could see me through the snow. Drove over to WI and ran some HRC upland hunt test down in Eagle, WI. Was cold both days sunny on Sunday. The club said last year same weekend they had 75deg weather. We had to run the test in the scrub behind the DNR hut, the field still had to much snow. Was an interesting test birds where you didn't expect to see one. They did not hold well so we had birds (chukar) running around from the dogs that ran before you.
> 
> Almost had a grouse on the grill when passing Dauber's neck of the woods. The truck grill that is.


No trouble with the pdf IWB! I have a new version if your interested. The Mi-Hunt guys have doen some updates. That is cool to use the gps like that. 

Yea the grouse around here commit suicide knowing the dauber cockers will be eatin their tail feathers by fall:evil:


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Dauber,
> 
> Long over due thanks for the pdf you sent me. I had not seen those maps on the MI web site. I was able to use those pdf images showing cut age and over lap those on to my GPS. So now when I am out in the field I can tell where the next cut is and how old the stand is by looking on the gps unit.
> 
> Jam,
> 
> I waved to you this past weekend not sure you could see me through the snow. Drove over to WI and ran some HRC upland hunt test down in Eagle, WI. Was cold both days sunny on Sunday. The club said last year same weekend they had 75deg weather. We had to run the test in the scrub behind the DNR hut, the field still had to much snow. Was an interesting test birds where you didn't expect to see one. They did not hold well so we had birds (chukar) running around from the dogs that ran before you.
> 
> Almost had a grouse on the grill when passing Dauber's neck of the woods. The truck grill that is.


Hi Doug,

Dauber just honks the horn on his way through.  That's a LONG ride to Eagle, WI from the N.L.P. Hope little Brandy showed 'em how it's done. Funny how those grouse are so wily in the woods and so careless near the road, hey? Too bad you didn't manage to get a fresh grouse for supper.


----------



## gundogguy

[Deleted


----------



## gundogguy

quote=*Gavan*;4549713]few good videos on springer field trials, wind pattern, etc. The Verkamp video you mentioned was done for the AKC and had Art Rodger, Harold Hiles, Mark Brookshire, et al. As you mentioned it does have some ground work in it.
Didn't want to come off too negative about the video that was posted. As I said a hunter who primarily hunts grouse and woodcock would be well served by starting their pup with that kind of control. They probably would do better with an "english" approach where the dog gets lots of training before getting into birds. The dog will increase it's range soon enough and maybe if you start them quartering at your feet they won't range as far when they "open up" later in their development.
As we've discussed before the Brits put lots of control on their pups before introducing birds, we Americans ,by and large, get them quartering between the guns, flushing and chasing birds, and then try to put the control on after the fact. The Brits are far over toward control on the continuum and we are more toward developing independence with just enough control to get the job done. Just my opinion.[/quote]



_This vid is about as good as it gets as far as production values are concerned. Though I abhor the "fisheye" lense effect because of distortions of distances and angles._
_
Cover is another issue when photoging as far training goes this is 'ok', for what was being done, but would not want to use for pheasants or actual trialing but I would really want this dog in some cover that was more spanielly. However cover would negate the production value of the training video. It is a real 'catch22"._
_
This dog does push the course well and that would be more appealing to FTrialers. Nicely steady, I would have questions about the mark only because it is out of camera range, but the dog does have a delivery._

http://s971.photobucket.com/user/FC...4.html?&_suid=1363776081250021087354808975067


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> _This vid is about as good as it gets as far as production values are concerned. Though I abhor the "fisheye" lense effect because of distortions of distances and angles._
> 
> _Cover is another issue when photoging as far training goes this is 'ok', for what was being done, but would not want to use for pheasants or actual trialing but I would really want this dog in some cover that was more spanielly. However cover would negate the production value of the training video. It is a real 'catch22"._
> 
> _This dog does push the course well and that would be more appealing to FTrialers. Nicely steady, I would have questions about the mark only because it is out of camera range, but the dog does have a delivery._


That looks like a nice young springer doing it's first pheasant. Very nicely steady. 

Posting any video introduces all kinds of "catch 22's" Even the fisheye is one, without if attached to your head there is so much movement back and forth following the dog, with fisheye there is so much distortion it is tough to get distances and angles as Hal says. In good spaniel cover you cannot see the dog well but that is where they are at "home". In lighter cover you can see them better, make corrections much more timely and effectively as well as anaylize their work. 

Last year when we had enough help I had a friend video with his iphone behind the handler. That way I could see how I was doing handling as well as what the dog was doing. But many times there isn't enough help to spare a dedicated video person. 

Maybe JAM can video me this summer and I'll post it so we can evaluate my preformance Right now training on bare ground is still a dream...back up to 26" on my snow gauge in the front yard and I can see more rolling in across the EUP prairie.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> That looks like a nice young springer doing it's first pheasant. Very nicely steady.
> 
> Posting any video introduces all kinds of "catch 22's" Even the fisheye is one, without if attached to your head there is so much movement back and forth following the dog, with fisheye there is so much distortion it is tough to get distances and angles as Hal says. In good spaniel cover you cannot see the dog well but that is where they are at "home". In lighter cover you can see them better, make corrections much more timely and effectively as well as anaylize their work.
> 
> Last year when we had enough help I had a friend video with his iphone behind the handler. That way I could see how I was doing handling as well as what the dog was doing. But many times there isn't enough help to spare a dedicated video person.
> 
> Maybe JAM can video me this summer and I'll post it so we can evaluate my preformance Right now training on bare ground is still a dream...back up to 26" on my snow gauge in the front yard and I can see more rolling in across the EUP prairie.


I'll video you this summer dauber if or when JAM can't.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> I'll video you this summer dauber if or when JAM can't.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Deal.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Deal.


Looks like we can have a camera crew to video Dauber. It'll be like our own Spaniel Production Company! I can hardly wait.

I think that's a great idea, Dauber. We can video each other. I used to shoot traditional bare-bow and would set my video camera up to see problems I was having with my form. It was a real eye-opener to see things I was completely unaware I was doing. I'm sure it would work very well for handling, too.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Looks like we can have a camera crew to video Dauber. It'll be like our own Spaniel Production Company! I can hardly wait.
> 
> I think that's a great idea, Dauber. We can video each other. I used to shoot traditional bare-bow and would set my video camera up to see problems I was having with my form. It was a real eye-opener to see things I was completely unaware I was doing. I'm sure it would work very well for handling, too.


:lol::lol: Now all we need is a video camera

Eye-opener for sure, just when I thought I looked like McGagh handling... no I had a style all of my own:SHOCKED:

These numbers need to start going down before we can worry about that.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> :lol::lol: Now all we need is a video camera
> 
> Eye-opener for sure, just when I thought I looked like McGagh handling... no I had a style all of my own:SHOCKED:
> 
> These numbers need to start going down before we can worry about that.


It is one thing to have a couple of feet of snow in the UP...some body got some plaining to do about 
*The West Allis FT in WI has been cancelled. Heard it was because they have too much snow.:SHOCKED::SHOCKED::yikes::yikes:*

That is just wrong!


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> :lol::lol: Now all we need is a video camera
> 
> Eye-opener for sure, just when I thought I looked like McGagh handling... no I had a style all of my own:SHOCKED:
> 
> These numbers need to start going down before we can worry about that.










JAM said:


> Looks like we can have a camera crew to video Dauber. It'll be like our own Spaniel Production Company! I can hardly wait.
> 
> I think that's a great idea, Dauber. We can video each other. I used to shoot traditional bare-bow and would set my video camera up to see problems I was having with my form. It was a real eye-opener to see things I was completely unaware I was doing. I'm sure it would work very well for handling, too.



Spaniel Video Productions! Sounds like fun. Now... A camera... I have an iPad. 


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## I'm with Brandy

JAM said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> Dauber just honks the horn on his way through.  That's a LONG ride to Eagle, WI from the N.L.P. Hope little Brandy showed 'em how it's done. Funny how those grouse are so wily in the woods and so careless near the road, hey? Too bad you didn't manage to get a fresh grouse for supper.


 
Jam, I will do anything to bypass Chicago except take the ferry, plus I have a kid in Escanaba going to school. We went to lunch and had a nice visit to break up the drive. Brandy did a great job 4 test 4 passes, as usually she caught more birds than I would have liked. I think 4 caught birds total, two traps the other two caught as they tried to fly. She almost had a fifth bird at about 4 feet off the ground. Winter fat held her down a little.:lol: As you know Jam my wife likes to take photos here are a few. Dauber can you guess where that sunset photo was taken. Hint it was in the UP lol. Brandy had a smile on her face all weekend.
[/COLOR]


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Dauber can you guess where that sunset photo was taken. Hint it was in the UP lol. Brandy had a smile on her face all weekend.


Very nice IWB and GOOD JOB Brandy! Yes very familiar with that spot, lost a huge pike icefishing there once years ago when there was some water in that bay.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Jam, I will do anything to bypass Chicago except take the ferry, plus I have a kid in Escanaba going to school. We went to lunch and had a nice visit to break up the drive. Brandy did a great job 4 test 4 passes, as usually she caught more birds than I would have liked. I think 4 caught birds total, two traps the other two caught as they tried to fly. She almost had a fifth bird at about 4 feet off the ground. Winter fat held her down a little.:lol: As you know Jam my wife likes to take photos here are a few. Dauber can you guess where that sunset photo was taken. Hint it was in the UP lol. Brandy had a smile on her face all weekend.
> [/COLOR]




Congrats Brandy and Doug! AWESOME! Beautiful pics, too.

Is your kid going to Bay College?


----------



## michgundog

I'm with Brandy said:


> Jam, I will do anything to bypass Chicago except take the ferry, plus I have a kid in Escanaba going to school. We went to lunch and had a nice visit to break up the drive. Brandy did a great job 4 test 4 passes, as usually she caught more birds than I would have liked. I think 4 caught birds total, two traps the other two caught as they tried to fly. She almost had a fifth bird at about 4 feet off the ground. Winter fat held her down a little.:lol: As you know Jam my wife likes to take photos here are a few. Dauber can you guess where that sunset photo was taken. Hint it was in the UP lol. Brandy had a smile on her face all weekend.
> [/COLOR]




Congratulations Doug!


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Jam, I will do anything to bypass Chicago except take the ferry, plus I have a kid in Escanaba going to school. We went to lunch and had a nice visit to break up the drive. Brandy did a great job 4 test 4 passes, as usually she caught more birds than I would have liked. I think 4 caught birds total, two traps the other two caught as they tried to fly. She almost had a fifth bird at about 4 feet off the ground. Winter fat held her down a little.:lol: As you know Jam my wife likes to take photos here are a few. Dauber can you guess where that sunset photo was taken. Hint it was in the UP lol. Brandy had a smile on her face all weekend.


welcome back very nice photogs of Brandy doing her thing. I have participate only one time in the HRC Upland test, that was with Maugh Vail's Airedale, Madonna, she qualified easily. That test was held in in northern Ohio, That particular club was not "gallery friendly", so we say>
Is Wisconsin of the same ilk or do they prefer to keep the gallery away from the action??


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> Spaniel Video Productions! Sounds like fun. Now... A camera... I have an iPad.
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I have a video camera and love to take pictures and video. 

I can hardly wait to see that field without the snow. Looks like a great place to train, Dauber. Looking at the picture of that field with that much snow is putting me into a deep depression. 

Come on SPRING!!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> welcome back very nice photogs of Brandy doing her thing. I have participate only one time in the HRC Upland test, that was with Maugh Vail's Airedale, Madonna, she qualified easily. That test was held in in northern Ohio, That particular club was not "gallery friendly", so we say>
> Is Wisconsin of the same ilk or do they prefer to keep the gallery away from the action??


Most of the clubs are okay with a gallery. The hunt setup can sometimes cause judges to not want a gallery. Our first test on Saturday in WI was not gallery friendly at times in the heavy brush I could not see my gunners or my dog for that fact. Our first flush I could not see Brandy nor could the judge he had to move so he could see if she was still sitting. We saw the bird go up and fly past the left hand gunner I blew a sit whistle and shot the primer load and the gunner fired once and missed could not fire a second time as it flew over the gallery. Brandy was only 25 yards out when she flushed the bird but the cover was so heavy with conifers you could not see her. 

If you look at that picture of Brandy running past the two guys in the blind past them in that heavy brush is where we ran the first test Saturday. Day two they moved the test out of the brush and we hunted the edge. Other than the first test the other three were fine for gallery to follow.

It&#8217;s not like a spaniel trial where you have the next handlers and dogs and gallery following. I don&#8217;t know that at any of the AKC hunt test that I had more than a couple people follow.

I think the HRC upland is easier than and AKC Master Spaniel test in some respects. Steadiness is the bulk of the test. There is no water retrieve or blind in the HRC upland test nor is there a hunt dead. You do have the walk up and honor that you have to do twice in each test. Some of the HRC judges are strict when it comes to finished healing. They also want to see quartering from the dog with little commands. Now some judges are more strict that others when it comes to the quartering. They want the flushes to be within range they may not count it if the dog is too far out and the dog may fail if it happens more than once. You also must fire the primer load before the gunners will shoot the bird, if you fail to fire the primer load twice or if you let the bird get out to far before you fire it you can fail the test. And you have to show gun safety, you can fail the test if you have two gun safety issues. When doing an honor and sitting at heal the test is a little more forgiving if the dog moves forward you can re heal the dog and it is counted as a controlled break. In AKC master, forward movement at the retrieving line will result in a failure.

Brandy has had that HRC upland title since 2008 a few months before she turned 2. She has run that test 18 times. We have failed twice out of 18 tests. I keep running it because we get additional points for the passes. We just started working on HRC Finished last year we passed one failed one. Failed on the last thing we had to do and that was the water blind.

Dauber, that sunset was from the top of the Cut river bridge. We stop there every time we are on 2.

Jam, yes she is at Bay now and then she will be going to NMU after she gets her associate deg.


----------



## Gavan

I don't understand Hal. How can the judges know what to do without a gallery to critique it? (-:


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Most of the clubs are okay with a gallery. The hunt setup can sometimes cause judges to not want a gallery.
> *Thanks that's interesting.*
> 
> 
> 
> I think the HRC upland is easier than and AKC Master Spaniel test in some respects.
> *Yes I thought the same thing, maybe because the Flushing dog hunt test is a wee bit more comprehensive than HRC Upland test*.
> *HRC has standards just different from the Spaniel testing process*.
> *Do you know if the AKC Retriever test system has ever incorporated a upland test in the system*?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gavan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand Hal. How can the judges know what to do without a gallery to critique it? (-:
> 
> 
> 
> *LOL, Just a different culture. A canine activity that folks enjoy*
> *Less emphasis on talent and more on obediance
> *
Click to expand...


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Dauber, that sunset was from the top of the Cut river bridge. We stop there every time we are on 2.


Yup, Epoufette bay to the right, used to be a sure bet to catch 20# pike in the winter there. Nice picture.


----------



## JAM

Doug, Bay's a good school. Very nice that your daughter's getting her education in the U.P. Gives you a good excuse to visit.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Yup, Epoufette bay to the right, used to be a sure bet to catch 20# pike in the winter there. Nice picture.


Beautiful place. When I was a teen, my buddies (and then later my girlfriend, who is now my wife) and I used to drive to the Cut River Bridge on Sundays and hang out just to do it. 

That was WAY before gas was $4 a gallon. We haven't done that in a long time.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> I'm with Brandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the clubs are okay with a gallery. The hunt setup can sometimes cause judges to not want a gallery.
> *Thanks that's interesting.*
> 
> 
> That is from a safety stand point.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the HRC upland is easier than and AKC Master Spaniel test in some respects.
> *Yes I thought the same thing, maybe because the Flushing dog hunt test is a wee bit more comprehensive than HRC Upland test*.
> *HRC has standards just different from the Spaniel testing process*.
> *Do you know if the AKC Retriever test system has ever incorporated a upland test in the system*?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, both value steadiness the same but HRC allows for verbal commands and is more tolerant of communication with the dog. At the same time I can tell you the walk up can be a real challange you and the dog are walking at heal and a dead bird is launched out in front of you while you're moving it can be to much for many dogs. I have had those walk up birds drop 6 feet in front of us in the water with a nice splash on the retriever test, that is very tempting for a break.
> 
> 
> While I don't find the hunt dead or the water work much of a challenge in the AKC Master test there are nice components I think a well rounded hunting dog should be able to do those things. I am surprised at how many spaniels fail the water work. The enforcement of the dog swimming to the blind has increased the number of failures on the AKC Spaniel Master test. I do agree that they should swim tot he blind.
> 
> The HRC upland test can also include a scent trail test. They do a scent drag and then the dog has to track it. I have never seen one at HRC upland probably because of time and space. But the rules do allow for it. I think every dog should have scent drag training even if they aren&#8217;t steady. Brandy has been trained for it and I would enjoy a test with that included.
> 
> I don't think the AKC has an upland portion in the retriever test but the HRC Grand does include an upland component. There are a lot of retrievers that do well at the retriever work only to fail the Grand on the flushing part of the test do to steadiness issues. I am not sure if they can have one on a Finished or Seasoned test. I will have to look at the rule book and see.
> 
> I try to train for any scenario, this past weekend the last bird flush on the last test, popped up about 15 feet in the air and Brandy sat I shot the primer load the gunners did not shoot, the bird came down 15 &#8211; 20 yards away from Brandy landing on top of the snow and walking around. Since Brandy was steady to the flush and shot from my primer gun the judge counted it as a flush and steady to wing and shot and fall. The judge asked me to call Brandy off the bird and move to the walkup portion of the test. So I gave Brandy her poison bird command and called her to me, she took a double take at the bird and then came to heal and we moved on. You saw me use that poison bird command in your pond a few years ago when Brandy was doing her water blind and she ran across that bird that another dog had not retrieved.
> 
> I have to add that even though I do all this training with her I don't own an e-collar and I don't do physical punishment with her. I just deny her the reward when she has not done the work correctly. Just a little disclaimer there.
Click to expand...


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I have a video camera and love to take pictures and video.
> 
> I can hardly wait to see that field without the snow. Looks like a great place to train, Dauber. Looking at the picture of that field with that much snow is putting me into a deep depression.
> 
> Come on SPRING!!


Wow, yous guys will get me from both sides eh! 

That's the goose and duck field JAM, the trianing field is on the other side of the house.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

yooperguy2003 said:


> Beautiful place. When I was a teen, my buddies (and then later my girlfriend, who is now my wife) and I used to drive to the Cut River Bridge on Sundays and hang out just to do it.
> 
> That was WAY before gas was $4 a gallon. We haven't done that in a long time.


One of these days I am going to purchase some land in the UP and work on retirment.


----------



## yooperguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> One of these days I am going to purchase some land in the UP and work on retirment.


The winters can drag on a little bit up here... But it's all worth it to be in God's Country. We'll leave the light on for ya! 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> [QUOTE
> 
> I have to add that even though I do all this training with her I don't own an e-collar and I don't do physical punishment with her. I just deny her the reward when she has not done the work correctly. Just a little disclaimer there.



Yes I'm aware of that. I my self am AC-DC I use all the tools available depending on the situation and time allotted. Of our personal Spaniels(5)
4 trained "Amish" 1 e-collar used in some spot situations. Dogs coming in for training are NCP trained. Dogtra owners know what that is. It is a real time saver, for pet hunter companion dogs of all persuasions.


----------



## gundogguy

Springer unsteady puppy stakes. Currently dogs up to the age of 24 months may run in a stakes that requires steadiness to wing and shot course coverage and nose and marking skills to be considered for placements. Dog that break or pass birds or fail retrieves would not be consider for ribbons or placements.
This came up at training today and I just wonder if any one else had heard any thing.


----------



## JAM

I haven't heard anything about unsteady puppy stakes, but I just read this from a reliable source:

Anybody who runs thier dogs in spaniel hunt tests should be aware that in the March mins of AKC board of directors meeting, the subject of labs and goldens in spaniel hunt tests has come up again.
here is a copy of the portion of the Mins

Labrador and Golden Retrievers Eligible to Participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Tests
The Board reviewed a request from The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. and the Golden Retriever Club of America to participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Test program. Both breeds can currently participate in the Retriever Hunting Test. This request is in keeping with AKCs program allowing versatile hunting breeds to be tested in two hunting test programs if the test is
Bd. Pg. 9
March 12-13, 2013
consistent with the purpose for which the breed was developed. This will be discussed further at the April Board meeting.
Under the staff proposal, for tests with a limit on the number of entries, Spaniel Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Spaniel entries, taking entries for Retrievers if the limit had not been reached. Likewise, Retriever Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Retriever entries, taking entries for Spaniels if the limit had not been reached.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I haven't heard anything about unsteady puppy stakes, but I just read this from a reliable source:
> 
> Anybody who runs thier dogs in spaniel hunt tests should be aware that in the March mins of AKC board of directors meeting, the subject of labs and goldens in spaniel hunt tests has come up again.
> here is a copy of the portion of the Mins
> 
> Labrador and Golden Retrievers Eligible to Participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Tests
> The Board reviewed a request from The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. and the Golden Retriever Club of America to participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Test program. Both breeds can currently participate in the Retriever Hunting Test. This request is in keeping with AKC&#8217;s program allowing versatile hunting breeds to be tested in two hunting test programs if the test is
> Bd. Pg. 9
> March 12-13, 2013
> consistent with the purpose for which the breed was developed. This will be discussed further at the April Board meeting.
> Under the staff proposal, for tests with a limit on the number of entries, Spaniel Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Spaniel entries, taking entries for Retrievers if the limit had not been reached. Likewise, Retriever Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Retriever entries, taking entries for Spaniels if the limit had not been reached.


:yikes::yikes::SHOCKED:

Well isn't that special! I would think that the AKC would go big instead of this piece meal approach every year  of adding a couple breeds to the Flushing dog hunt tests venue. They should just allow all breeds to test and wait and see who shows up..

This might open up the number of test grounds that might be become available. Grounds the flushing dog test culture would not normally be able to run their dogs on. More grounds the merrier, very few retriever tests are run in corn or sorghum stubble, might just be a good thing.

After some research there is no movement to have an UNSTEADY puppy stake... Trial standards will remain high!


----------



## JAM

Here's another AKC announcement that grinds me. They want recording fees for puppy stakes. Puppy placements are not even acknowledged by the AKC. Why should they get any fees?

Subject: [ESSFTA-Announce] AKC Event Service and Recording Fees

Re: AKC Event Service fees & Recording fees

AKC has become aware that some Spaniel Field Trial clubs have not been sending into the AKC the required Event Service and Recording Fees for all dogs entered in the trial. Specifically the Puppy Stake. 

This is a reminder to all Licensed or Member Field Trial clubs that under the "Rules of the American Kennel Club " these fees must be submitted for all dogs entered in the event, this has always included all stakes at an event. Failure to do so could affect the clubs licensed ability to hold future events, subsequent suspension of placements and/or a fine. 

While this has been noted previously, effective January 1, 2013 all clubs must comply. 

Any questions, please feel free to contact Tom Meyer [email protected]




Bev Matthews
ESSFTA Field Vice President


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Here's another AKC announcement that grinds me. They want recording fees for puppy stakes. Puppy placements are not even acknowledged by the AKC. Why should they get any fees?
> 
> Subject: [ESSFTA-Announce] AKC Event Service and Recording Fees
> 
> Re: AKC Event Service fees & Recording fees
> 
> AKC has become aware that some Spaniel Field Trial clubs have not been sending into the AKC the required Event Service and Recording Fees for all dogs entered in the trial. Specifically the Puppy Stake.
> 
> This is a reminder to all Licensed or Member Field Trial clubs that under the "Rules of the American Kennel Club " these fees must be submitted for all dogs entered in the event, this has always included all stakes at an event. Failure to do so could affect the clubs licensed ability to hold future events, subsequent suspension of placements and/or a fine.
> 
> While this has been noted previously, effective January 1, 2013 all clubs must comply.
> Any questions, please feel free to contact Tom Meyer [email protected]
> Bev Matthews
> ESSFTA Field Vice President


Puppies run under the liability umbrella. Very little of it has to do with championship points or titles.
Hey when you wrestle with pigs(AKC) you are going to get dirty!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I haven't heard anything about unsteady puppy stakes, but I just read this from a reliable source:
> 
> Anybody who runs thier dogs in spaniel hunt tests should be aware that in the March mins of AKC board of directors meeting, the subject of labs and goldens in spaniel hunt tests has come up again.
> here is a copy of the portion of the Mins
> 
> Labrador and Golden Retrievers Eligible to Participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Tests
> The Board reviewed a request from The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. and the Golden Retriever Club of America to participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Test program. Both breeds can currently participate in the Retriever Hunting Test. This request is in keeping with AKCs program allowing versatile hunting breeds to be tested in two hunting test programs if the test is
> Bd. Pg. 9
> March 12-13, 2013
> consistent with the purpose for which the breed was developed. This will be discussed further at the April Board meeting.
> Under the staff proposal, for tests with a limit on the number of entries, Spaniel Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Spaniel entries, taking entries for Retrievers if the limit had not been reached. Likewise, Retriever Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Retriever entries, taking entries for Spaniels if the limit had not been reached.


Hmmm....being spaniel er flushing dog tests are judged to each breeds standard, I wonder how the labers will describe their breed? Will they allow pointing:yikes::SHOCKED: or just the hesitation other spaniel breeds allow? I wonder how there style of quartering will be described:evil:.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Hmmm....being spaniel er flushing dog tests are judged to each breeds standard, I wonder how the labers will describe their breed? Will they allow pointing:yikes::SHOCKED: or just the hesitation other spaniel breeds allow? I wonder how there style of quartering will be described:evil:.


It all smells bad to me. and I'm referring to infamous "breed running style document".
I find it interesting that the Pointing or Retriever dog hunttest program does not a have a so call "style document" Brittany's, GSP and the other pointing breeds have to find birds demonstrate a pointing behavior, Retriever go out bring the bird back doesn't matter if it is a Lab golden or whatever..get'er done. plain and simple, none of the legalese we see in the flushing dog hunt test documents. For jistsakes the Airedale is supposed to demonstrate a "wiggly" tail, when making game. I kid you not. And what the H##l is an "English point". The kind of idiocy of the so call running style document.
I still think if entry numbers are so bad that the program is in jeopardy...open it up to ALL breeds of dogs...German shepherds, beagles,and so on. That makes more sense than this bush league system adding a couple a breeds every year and hoping it works out. I doubt the last four breeds(Airedale,Irish water spaniel, Flat coat and or Curlie coated Retr. really set the numbers on the upswing of the curve. He## fire, in some parts of the country they have not seen any of these exotic retriever breeds show up and test. 

By the way did the AKC expand the number of weekends in a given year?


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Hmmm....being spaniel er flushing dog tests are judged to each breeds standard, I wonder how the labers will describe their breed? Will they allow pointing:yikes::SHOCKED: or just the hesitation other spaniel breeds allow? I wonder how there style of quartering will be described:evil:.


Good questions Steve. I wonder if spaniels show up at a retriever test if the spaniel will be viewed as a novelty breed. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Hmmm....being spaniel er flushing dog tests are judged to each breeds standard, I wonder how the labers will describe their breed? Will they allow pointing:yikes::SHOCKED: or just the hesitation other spaniel breeds allow? I wonder how there style of quartering will be described:evil:.


Here's what I think (ohoh!). If the retriever community wants to do an upland test they should have their own like HRC does. The spaniel hunt tests should be for SPANIELS - not any dog that doesn't point.

Just my 2 cents - as usual.


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## Steelheadfred

I said I would not comment on this thread again, but never say never. 

If you want to run a non spaniel in a spaniel hunt text your dig should perform to the spaniel standard IMO. If your lab hesitates, there is a hint test organization for them, the APLA.

If a spaniel runs a retriever test, it should be no different. Meet the retriever standard. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Good questions Steve. I wonder if spaniels show up at a retriever test if the spaniel will be viewed as a novelty breed.
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


They might Mike, but at least everyone watching knows what the standard is they have to meet to pass. You have to have a rulebook and running style document in hand to know if the other breeds are meeting the standard.



JAM said:


> Here's what I think (ohoh!). If the retriever community wants to do an upland test they should have their own like HRC does. The spaniel hunt tests should be for SPANIELS - not any dog that doesn't point.
> Just my *2 cents* - as usual.


2 cents is a darned good deal for your opinion JAM. That's the way it _should be _but the barn door has been left open. When the spaniel people who set up the tests way back in the late 1900's:evilsmile they didn't think there was enough water retreiving in field trials so they set up some basic water work and "kindof" blinds. Perfectly fine. Maybe retriever people needed to set up an upland as you say JAM. Or maybe they could have their own AFLA and set up a testing program. Now the barn door is open and all the livestock is loose. We'll probablly have to fence in the pasture and try to keep in the fence now. Thank goodness there still are the field trials.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

They should meet the standards of the test or go home empty handed.

This is my prediction of the outcome of flat coats and curly coats being in the spaniel hunt test.
Quartering requirement, they will want an allowance for yo yo work.
Getting their dog to stay close in the upland, again the yo yo work.
Flush, they will want the ability to talk to the dog to coax a flush.
The hunt dead, they will want it to become a land blind.

When are they going to let me run the damn retriever test with my Springer?


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> They should meet the standards of the test or go home empty handed.
> 
> This is my prediction of the outcome of flat coats and curly coats being in the spaniel hunt test.
> Quartering requirement, they will want an allowance for yo yo work.
> Getting their dog to stay close in the upland, again the yo yo work.
> Flush, they will want the ability to talk to the dog to coax a flush.
> The hunt dead, they will want it to become a land blind.
> 
> *When are they going to let me run the damn retriever test with my Springer*?


When they don't have a filled up entry according to the proposal. See below.





JAM said:


> I haven't heard anything about unsteady puppy stakes, but I just read this from a reliable source:
> 
> Anybody who runs thier dogs in spaniel hunt tests should be aware that in the March mins of AKC board of directors meeting, the subject of labs and goldens in spaniel hunt tests has come up again.
> here is a copy of the portion of the Mins
> 
> Labrador and Golden Retrievers Eligible to Participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Tests
> The Board reviewed a request from The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. and the Golden Retriever Club of America to participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Test program. Both breeds can currently participate in the Retriever Hunting Test. This request is in keeping with AKCs program allowing versatile hunting breeds to be tested in two hunting test programs if the test is
> Bd. Pg. 9
> March 12-13, 2013
> consistent with the purpose for which the breed was developed. This will be discussed further at the April Board meeting.
> Under the staff proposal, for tests with a limit on the number of entries, *Spaniel Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Spaniel entries, taking entries for Retrievers if the limit had not been reached. Likewise, Retriever Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Retriever entries, taking entries for Spaniels if the limit had not been reached*.


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## gundogguy

Watch these links in order it will give you some idea of how her training is going.
In addition to these drills,which are design just to build her foundation of compliance and success when ask to perform.
Zeta has been introduce to birds, guns, and is quartering, she is a fully started hunting dog. And now is beginning the journey of becoming fully trained.

At 17 weeks her first table training work-out. In October of 2012

1. 





At 34 weeks of age Beginning process of steadiness,marking, and presentation delivery. March 2013

2. 




Gunfire, multiples marks, shot flyers to be added as she progresses. 

Hie-on!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> I haven't heard anything about unsteady puppy stakes, but I just read this from a reliable source:
> 
> Anybody who runs thier dogs in spaniel hunt tests should be aware that in the March mins of AKC board of directors meeting, the subject of labs and goldens in spaniel hunt tests has come up again.
> here is a copy of the portion of the Mins
> 
> Labrador and Golden Retrievers Eligible to Participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Tests
> The Board reviewed a request from The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. and the Golden Retriever Club of America to participate in the Spaniel (Upland) Hunting Test program. Both breeds can currently participate in the Retriever Hunting Test. This request is in keeping with AKC&#8217;s program allowing versatile hunting breeds to be tested in two hunting test programs if the test is
> Bd. Pg. 9
> March 12-13, 2013
> consistent with the purpose for which the breed was developed. This will be discussed further at the April Board meeting.
> Under the staff proposal, for tests with a limit on the number of entries, Spaniel Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Spaniel entries, taking entries for Retrievers if the limit had not been reached. Likewise, Retriever Clubs would have the option of giving preference to Retriever entries, taking entries for Spaniels if the limit had not been reached.


Well, Well, Well, isnt that real "Special" 

Why don't the Lab and GR Clubs just develop their own tests, for pointing, upland or whatever? Why do they even try to poach in on the AKC Spaniel test? 

I haven't seen ONE lab yet ever put down a decent, consistent ground pattern in the hunting field. The yoyo, helter-skelter MO doesnt cut it!

NB


----------



## Glenmorangie

NATTY BUMPO said:


> I haven't seen ONE lab yet ever put down a decent, consistent ground pattern in the hunting field. The yoyo, helter-skelter MO doesnt cut it!
> 
> NB



Doesn't cut it based on what? I used labs "in the hunting field" in Iowa, Kansas, Montana and South Dakota for decades. What constitutes an acceptable ground pattern in the hunting fields? In my experience it varies and should never be cookie cutter. Initial bird scent, terrain, likely objectives, hunters handling (direction, pace, gestures) , ditches, crop rows, other dogs, wind, scenting conditions: the list is quite long why you want and need a dog that varies his ground pattern to adapt to the situation. My definition of a consistent ground pattern in the hunting field is simply to be within gun range. I had success with that for years. Now, mind you these were non slip waterfowl retrievers primarily. I assume you hunt more wild birds than we did as we averaged 10 days or so per year on a few trips here and there. Whistle sit, heel, come were all we needed.


----------



## gundogguy

Glenmorangie said:


> Doesn't cut it based on what? I used labs "in the hunting field" in Iowa, Kansas, Montana and South Dakota for decades. What constitutes an acceptable ground pattern in the hunting fields? In my experience it varies and should never be cookie cutter. Initial bird scent, terrain, likely objectives, hunters handling (direction, pace, gestures) , ditches, crop rows, other dogs, wind, scenting conditions: the list is quite long why you want and need a dog that varies his ground pattern to adapt to the situation. My definition of a consistent ground pattern in the hunting field is simply to be within gun range. I had success with that for years. Now, mind you these were non slip waterfowl retrievers primarily. I assume you hunt more wild birds than we did as we averaged 10 days or so per year on a few trips here and there. Whistle sit, heel, come were all we needed.


There you go! You should start a test process for flushing Retrievers that fits your standards while upland bird hunting. 
Now if your retrievers have a "little hesitation" to flush or a soft flush you can even include that in your upland retriever test. 
If you do not think that a "cookie cutter" patterns are useful that is fine no one is putting a gun to your head and making you do that in your upland retriever test if a yo-yo running style is pleasant for you to hunt behind then go with it... and productive go with it. 
Though i do think that Natty is entitle to his observation the Yo-Yo rocking horse style of most retriever breeds is not pleasant to watch or hunt behind, I would share the same thinking. That is why they make such good non-slip retrievers.
If you are looking for a venue I'm sure you aware that UKC offers a fine upland retriever tests that is quite popular with the flushing retrievers...Pointing labs not so much
Doug Cherry and his spaniel just ran one in Wisconsin, Doug enjoys them very much


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## gundogguy

As an aside this past weekend Zeta's sire,, Mike Wallace and NFC/FC/CFC Cliff made a win Susquehanna Pa trial and Zeta's dam Buccleugh Thistle made her placement, a 4th place in Nebraska under the handle of her owner Alex Kerr

Zeta had to put up with me


----------



## Glenmorangie

Slow down there big fella. You trying to do the old Obama two step? The Pelosi bait and switch?

The man, who I suppose can speak for himself said HUNTING FIELD.

Many, not all field trial settings are like a "playground". Don't confuse the two or put words in my mouth. I never once mentioned your precious tests, trials or whatever so keep your powder dry.

I stand by what I wrote....which was to respond to the gentleman who made mention that he had never seen ONE lab with a decent ground pattern. There dead now, but I could have shown him 3 or 4 in years past and enjoyed several meals of WILD pheasant with him to boot.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Glenmorangie said:


> My definition of a consistent ground pattern in the hunting field is simply to be within gun range.


Well then, that's not *my definition* but you are certainly welcome to yours.

I hunted wild birds over 50 days last year, including eight days in South Dakota. 2012 was a typical year for the last 20 years. I have hunted over more than 100 Labs. 

Have a Good Day.

NB


----------



## JAM

No one said labs can't hunt upland birds. The discussion is more about HOW the dog hunts. Spaniels (well... springers and English cockers mostly) have a specific style of quartering and using the wind. That's what makes them a spaniel. It seems that all these other breeds have that "my dog can do anything your spaniel can do" mentality but "you'll have to bend the rules of the test because my dog doesn't work like a spaniel."

What I'm trying to get at is just because a dog hunts upland birds and you have put a few in the bag doesn't mean it should be tested as a spaniel. I have a 12 yr. old springer that points. I wouldn't think of trying to run him in a pointing dog test just because he points. He has an excellent nose and we've put lots of birds in the bag over the years. That doesn't make him a pointing dog. Also, he couldn't even pass a JH spaniel test because of that fault. I guess I could dress him up as some other breed that would allow that "English flush" and run him in a test. :lol:

If the retriever community wants an upland test they should have their own with their own standards.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> No one said labs can't hunt upland birds. The discussion is more about HOW the dog hunts. Spaniels (well... springers and English cockers mostly) have a specific style of quartering and using the wind. That's what makes them a spaniel. It seems that all these other breeds have that "my dog can do anything your spaniel can do" mentality but "you'll have to bend the rules of the test because my dog doesn't work like a spaniel."
> 
> What I'm trying to get at is just because a dog hunts upland birds and you have put a few in the bag doesn't mean it should be tested as a spaniel. I have a 12 yr. old springer that points. I wouldn't think of trying to run him in a pointing dog test just because he points. He has an excellent nose and we've put lots of birds in the bag over the years. That doesn't make him a pointing dog. Also, he couldn't even pass a JH spaniel test because of that fault. I guess I could dress him up as some other breed that would allow that "English flush" and run him in a test. :lol:
> 
> If the retriever community wants an upland test they should have their own with their own standards.


Thanks Jam for the sanity! Hunter spin is right there with use car salesmen spin


----------



## Glenmorangie

Some of you guys remind me of a toll booth operator in St. Ignace with his hand out requiring two pence of me to cross "HIS" bridge to enter "HIS" DOMAIN.

Get use to it. This is the 21st. Century. You're going to have dissenting views and "outsiders" entering "YOUR" precious spaniel thread from time to time.

If you can't handle that might I suggest that the two or three "toll booth operators" who have your daily spaniel fix go to a men's spa retreat for the weekend and get a room? You guys can hash it out together once and for all and post your conclusions on Monday. Short of that, learn to live with a little difference of opinion; it's the American Way!


----------



## JAM

Hal, Really enjoy the videos of Zeta. It's been fun watching her grow. Thanks for sharing.


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## Glenmorangie

OUCH!!!!

A picture is worth a thousand words. I had no idea there was actually a trial and results which kinda tells me all I need to know.....


----------



## JAM

Steelheadfred said:


> 2009 Robert J. Lytle RGS Fun Trial Results.
> 
> 
> *Flushing Division:*
> 
> Placement/dogs name/breed/owner
> 
> 1st/Bella/ Lab/Fritz Heller
> 2nd/Kate/Lab/Dan Hartley
> 3rd/Rocky/ECS/Rod Robison
> 4th/Sisco/ESS/Mike Cuneo


I was just looking at another site and happened across this:

September 2009
Ruffed Grousse Society State Championships: SMSSTC Club Dogs Sweep 1st and 2nd in the flushing division: 
1st Bing - ESS Brandon Short
2nd Millie - ESS John Skiba

Hmmmmm.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Jam,

Did you read my disclaimer? I was directing it at Natty Bumpo, not Jam, Dauber, Hal Standish, Glen, Mike Minnick, or any of the other Spaniel Regulars. 


You can also look up many many more RGS Results. It's not a breed thing, is a breeding and handler thing.


----------



## JAM

Steelheadfred said:


> Jam,
> 
> Did you read my disclaimer? I was directing it at Natty Bumpo, not Jam, Dauber, Hal Standish, Glen, Mike Minnick, or any of the other Spaniel Regulars.
> 
> 
> You can also look up many many more RGS Results. It's not a breed thing, is a breeding and handler thing.


I don't usually get into this discussion but now and then have to vent. 

The RGS Fun Trials were started as a fund raiser for RGS. Apparently it has become very competitive with some of the RGS members - not with the general population of dog owners/competitors. And no, it's not a breed or handler thing. It's a fund raiser that's suppose to be for fun. Both of my springers placed 1st and 2nd in (I think) 2006 at our no longer in existence RGS chapter. The dog that won is the dog that points. I would hardly call that a great accomplishment. I think I have a picture of the winners of that trial around here somewhere. I'll try to find it and post it.

If you're directing your comments towards one person on this thread, don't you think it would be a good idea to keep it private between you and him?


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## Steelheadfred

Then Rodney should keep his mouth shut about breeds other than Spaniels right? 


As far as your comments, the RGS trials are growing, most fields are completely full with a waiting list, I know nothing of participation in spaniel venues, but I think that speaks volumes about a place folks can compete with their gun dogs, that the RGS Trials are full. Again, you should compete, bring your dog to the line. It's not a breed thing, it's a breeding and handler thing. If you want to dismiss their significance you should compete. The Point Lab folks are doing just that this year, I applaud them coming to the line in the Pointing Division.



The minute you take money, it's competitive. For the record, we don't raise a dime for RGS directly through the trials. Bill Marriott famously said "Take care of your associates, they'll take care of your guests, and the rest will take care of itself."


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## I'm with Brandy

JAM said:


> No one said labs can't hunt upland birds. The discussion is more about HOW the dog hunts. Spaniels (well... springers and English cockers mostly) have a specific style of quartering and using the wind. That's what makes them a spaniel. It seems that all these other breeds have that "my dog can do anything your spaniel can do" mentality but "you'll have to bend the rules of the test because my dog doesn't work like a spaniel."
> 
> What I'm trying to get at is just because a dog hunts upland birds and you have put a few in the bag doesn't mean it should be tested as a spaniel. I have a 12 yr. old springer that points. I wouldn't think of trying to run him in a pointing dog test just because he points. He has an excellent nose and we've put lots of birds in the bag over the years. That doesn't make him a pointing dog. Also, he couldn't even pass a JH spaniel test because of that fault. I guess I could dress him up as some other breed that would allow that "English flush" and run him in a test. :lol:
> 
> If the retriever community wants an upland test they should have their own with their own standards.


Jam if you had left his tail intact you might have been able to run him as a setter. lol

Hal,

Hal,
I do enjoy the HRC test. It&#8217;s a great time to get my dog out and work her to the standards of that test requirements. I also enjoyed running her in the AKC spaniel test and meeting the requirements of that test. I also enjoy running her in HRC retriever test and meeting the requirements of those tests. *You will never hear me ever ask for special treatment at any test to help us pass the test.* 
Yes at one HRC test I had to send my dog from a boat and she could barely see of the gunnel so I had her sit on the seat but no one said she had to sit in the bottom of the boat. 











I didn't ask for a shorter dog stand either. I was reminded that I could not help her back up.










If AKC had retriever upland and the dogs were required to yo yo quarter then I would not run the test. I would also not want to run the test asking for an exception for my dog because it is a spaniel and it quarters. I do not want my dog to hunt that way. I will not do any test that adversely affects the way I want my dog to hunt.
I will also tell you that the HRC test does require the dog to quarter on its own and seeking targets. Now will you fail if the dog doesn&#8217;t do it, depends on the judge. Some judges do not put a lot of emphasis on quartering.
I remember a started HRC test these guys with 40 -60 lb lab pups crying about a duck that was twice the size of the other ducks. I could hear them asking the judge to toss the duck out. The judge would not toss the duck out. I wonder how they felt after they watched this retrieve.
Yes that is the duck in question:











Don&#8217;t ask to do the test if you can&#8217;t meet the requirements. And don&#8217;t come to the starting line making excuses and asking for changes to the requirements.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I haven't heard anything about unsteady puppy stakes, but I just read this from a reliable source:
> 
> *The Board (AKC) reviewed a request from The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. and the Golden Retriever Club of America to participate in the Spaniel *(Upland) Hunting Test program.
> 
> Where are the retriever types that want this? Who do we know that runs HRC or AKC retrievers and they want a nother upland hunt test?
> Going back to this original offshoot of thread.I have been in contact with half dozen Labrador breeders and trainers around the country.
> The unanimous opinion was disbelief and are you crazy, dye in the wool retriever folks do not really need or want a nother test venue. They know they can particpate in the HRC Upland test and some due. Quite honestly many of them view upland as a place to recreate dogs that cannot go to the Finished or Master level of retriever test system, more of a pastime than a serious avocation. Remember testing is not a serious leg in building a AA breeding program it's a gauge and for some dog a bridge to real competition and valued added titles.
> So that would leave the hunting community. So where are they? Some the serious retriever types should weigh in on this subject.
> Personally I think this is something akin to AKC bondoggle of an idea.
> There building a product where no market exists.. Much ado about nothing..


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## Glenmorangie

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Well then, that's not *my definition* but you are certainly welcome to yours.
> 
> I hunted wild birds over 50 days last year, including eight days in South Dakota. 2012 was a typical year for the last 20 years. I have hunted over more than 100 Labs.
> 
> Have a Good Day.
> 
> NB


Maybe we got off on the wrong foot. Or maybe someone stepped on my foot.

Question. If you hunted 8 days in South Dakota for wild birds, where were the other 42 days hunting wild birds? 

Secondly, I have nothing against spaniels or anything to do with them, as you do labs. In fact I have recently been scouring the British FT (lines) kennels in the U.S looking for a small female cocker. I can see having one for specific duty for times, places and situations that I wouldn't necessarily use my setters. I'm working a setter pup right now and have been looking for a started ECS that might suit my narrow needs.


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Jam if you had left his tail intact you might have been able to run him as a setter. lol
> 
> Hal,
> 
> Hal,
> I do enjoy the HRC test. Its a great time to get my dog out and work her to the standards of that test requirements. I also enjoyed running her in the AKC spaniel test and meeting the requirements of that test. I also enjoy running her in HRC retriever test and meeting the requirements of those tests. *You will never hear me ever ask for special treatment at any test to help us pass the test.*
> Yes at one HRC test I had to send my dog from a boat and she could barely see of the gunnel so I had her sit on the seat but no one said she had to sit in the bottom of the boat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't ask for a shorter dog stand either. I was reminded that I could not help her back up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If AKC had retriever upland and the dogs were required to yo yo quarter then I would not run the test. I would also not want to run the test asking for an exception for my dog because it is a spaniel and it quarters. I do not want my dog to hunt that way. I will not do any test that adversely affects the way I want my dog to hunt.
> I will also tell you that the HRC test does require the dog to quarter on its own and seeking targets. Now will you fail if the dog doesnt do it, depends on the judge. Some judges do not put a lot of emphasis on quartering.
> I remember a started HRC test these guys with 40 -60 lb lab pups crying about a duck that was twice the size of the other ducks. I could hear them asking the judge to toss the duck out. The judge would not toss the duck out. I wonder how they felt after they watched this retrieve.
> Yes that is the duck in question:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont ask to do the test if you cant meet the requirements. And dont come to the starting line making excuses and asking for changes to the requirements.


As usual wonderful photo's of you and your dog doing the work.
I am well aware that you enjoy the many facets of Testing whether it be spaniel or HRC. It works for you that fine.
One thought or quuesstion if you will.
many years ago in the early day of HRC I sold a springer pup to a man who duck hunted the Sag bay and all over other parts of Mich. DruidXTurtkeCreek breeding, the pups name was Riley who went to be the 1st ESS to Title HRC. Riley only hunted waterfowl for about 11yrs. I guess you could say I was the breeder of the first HRC springer.

My question is how many other Springer folks are you acquainted with that regularly enter and test in the HRC retriever program?


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## JAM

Steelheadfred said:


> If you want to dismiss their significance you should compete.


I used to compete in the RGS trials when they were in my neck of the woods. I did it for the fund raising part of it - at least that's the way I understood it. We were raising $$ for RGS by having the fun dog trials.

The last few RGS trials I ran in I was not allowed to place because someone decided that if your dog had a title (SH at that time) from any sanctioned game, you could not place. I don't own a dog at this time that is able to run in an RGS trial because of placements/titles. Also, the L.P. is too far from here for that.

Doug's little Brandy is an awesome, well trained pup. She excels at both the spaniel HT's and the HRC. She's a real gem.  Great pictures, as usual, Doug.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I used to compete in the RGS trials when they were in my neck of the woods. I did it for the fund raising part of it - at least that's the way I understood it. We were raising $$ for RGS by having the fun dog trials.
> 
> The last few RGS trials I ran in *I was not allowed to place because someone decided that if your dog had a title (SH at that time) from any *sanctioned game, you could not place. *I don't own a dog at this time that is able to run in an RGS trial because of placements/titles. Also, *
> Doug's little Brandy is an awesome, well trained pup. She excels at both the spaniel HT's and the HRC. She's a real gem.  Great pictures, as usual, Doug.


Jam as i understand it you eventually move from testing to AA trialing and won Tilden Valley as i recall, for sure! By the way very few folks have made that bridge, from hunt tests to AA spaniel trials and been successful. Jeff Swartz, Brian Sonier(sic).That come to mind. Hats off to you on that achievement.


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## I'm with Brandy

Glenmorangie,
I hope you&#8217;re not offended by anything I typed. I am not trying to be negative about anyone&#8217;s dog that does not quarter in the typical fashion that a spaniel does. It is what is expected on the Spaniel test I see no reason to change the test. Teaching a dog to quarter is a simple thing to teach if they don't do it naturally. I think most labs would do it naturally if given more time in the upland. As it is retriever training does not lend itself to reinforcing the natural quarter. I have a very good friend that has two Flat coated retrievers both very accomplished dogs. One has had formal upland training and has a very nice quartering pattern. I have actually offered to run the dog in Master spaniel upland. I know that dog can perform the test without any breed specific changes.
Hal,
I see a few not many. Jeffrey Towler here on the message board also runs HRC retriever test with his springer&#8217;s. In fact he was there last year when Brandy and I ran and past our first finished test. He is a nice guy very supportive. I did see another springer running the HRC upland in WI. I duck hunt with my springer several times every year. They are a versatile dog and can do both jobs quite well. I know as a field trailer you have little use for non-slip retriever work but not all of us devote our time to just one thing. I would do the field trials too if I thought we could get a fair shake. But as you know Brandy can&#8217;t pass the confirmation part of the field trials. Remember her head is to square, her blaze is too wide and her tail is too short. The judge would never place her in the third round because she is not good breed stock. Nothing bad to say about the judge I am glad he was honest, I am sure other judges would feel the same way and I have not wasted another dime on field trials.
Jam,
Thanks Jam Brandy will give you kisses for the kind words next time you see her. I get the impression from some people that because Brandy does the retriever work that she somehow must lack in the Spaniel world. You saw her in WI at the Fox Valley hunt test not many dogs past that weekend especially on Sunday because the birds would only fly a few yards before landing. If I remember there were only two dogs that passed both days. I think one was a little field spaniel and the other was Brandy.
Frits,
Your dogs are well accomplished dogs and they hold their own. You know I have a difference of opinion on how a flushing trial should run, and I won&#8217;t go into that here we have talked enough about it.
I have done the RGS thing and it was fun. Brandy and I took first place the first time we ran the event. Glad we didn't have to pass confirmation as part of the trial. We braced with Rodney and his dog. Still feel bad Brandy took all the birds and Rods dog didn't get any. Well he did have that flyway that he chased after. And I was a gentleman I waited for Rod to get his dog back under control before continuing down field even though I was not required to wait for him. And it was unfortunate that you and I had to go up against the pointers at the dog of the year trial. I still think we would have fared better if it had not rained all day and if the pointing guys had not been allowed to pick their birds up and toss them into the air to shoot them, while we were required to get a flush.


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Jam as i understand it you eventually move from testing to AA trialing and won Tilden Valley as i recall, for sure! By the way very few folks have made that bridge, from hunt tests to AA spaniel trials and been successful. Jeff Swartz, Brian Sonier(sic).That come to mind. Hats off to you on that achievement.


Thank you, Hal. I love the spaniel games. I wish I was a better trainer/handler and could go farther. I'd love to make one of my dogs an AFC. Hopefully, with the help of Bob S. and the Daubers, I'll get better.

My young dog is a real handful. He's very different from my Bullet that won the TVESSC trial in 2008. I hope to put a MH title on him this year. He had a 2nd place in the puppy stake at the FVECS springer trial in 2010 and is a SH now.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Jam as i understand it you eventually move from testing to AA trialing and won Tilden Valley as i recall, for sure! By the way very few folks have made that bridge, from hunt tests to AA spaniel trials and been successful. Jeff Swartz, Brian Sonier(sic).That come to mind. Hats off to you on that achievement.


A couple others I can think of would be Mike Pollack and Mark Geebert. Both are doing very well in AA trials and puppy stakes(steady). In fact Mike's Julep took 1st out of 10 pups in OK a few weeks ago. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## NATTY BUMPO

Steelheadfred said:


> This is the last time I will ever post on the Spaniel Corner unless it is as a retort to this post.
> 
> Are the following Judges I've won under not qualified to judge flushing dogs in your opinion? IE they did not pick the best dog that day?
> 
> What will it be?


SHF asked me a question in The Spaniel Corner on 1/11/1013. He seemed really, really interested in my reply.

*SO, WHAT'S A MAN'S WORD WORTH ???*

Is it one thin dime or a two cents or not one penny?? Or is it worth *nothing at all* because he doesnt keep his word. Is "*his word*" worth ZIP,ZERO, ZILCH, NADA.

I answered the question thusly ie. "John Skeba is very well qualified, based on many objective criteria." One of which is that he is on the AKC list as an accredited Judge of AKC Flushing Dog trials. The Gold Standard. One of only four in the State. 

So, I asked SHF "What are the credentials of yr other names to judge the "RGS STATE CHAMPIONSHIP, FD DIVISON"???

Apparently SHF didnt like my answer. And he never answered my question. But he certainly didnt keep "*his word*". 

So now Fishhead is back here again stirring the pot, insulting, demeaning, besmirching , bad mouthing and harrassing spaniel persons and dogs. Who needs this *@*&!^%!#* ????

Fishhead, Go back to yr CDR Brag Thread and spill your bile there.

NB


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## Steelheadfred

> SO, WHAT'S A MAN'S WORD WORTH ???


Clearly Rodney, you don't want to have an ethics debate with me, or should I remind you of your cover theft? 




> Fishhead, Go back to yr CDR Brag Thread and spill your bile there.


Same bile that kicked your ass in every "picnic" trial you entered, oh yeah, more excuses, the most respected dog men in this state are not qualified to judge under the posted criteria. I sent you all that in a Private Message. 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRNWFtgXo2E


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