# No smokeless muzzleloaders in shotgun zone?



## Mike10 (Oct 30, 2010)

Hello everyone, I am a TN hunter who uses a smokeless muzzleloader and am planning on hunting Michigan this season. The place where I'll be hunting is a shotgun only zone. From what I've gathered, I can NOT use smokeless powder...Is that correct? I tried to find it in black and white on the MI DNR website but couldn't come up with a straight answer (I.e. no smokeless muzzleloaders can be used in the shotgun zone). However, I did find where it says black powder must be used, or a substitute to black powder, so does smokeless constitute a BP sub? 

Thanks!

Mike


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## vandermi (Jun 6, 2003)

Black powder or its equivalent means like pirodex or other black powder burning substance. I think the smokeless powders are out.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Smokeless powder in a smokeless powder muzzleloader for the muzzleloading season is illegal.


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## Flyhack (Jul 12, 2009)

According to the Michigan DNR 2010 Hunting and Trapping Guide on page 28 it reads:*
"Muzzleloading Deer Seasons​*During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading
deer hunters can carry afield and use only a crossbow or a
muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black powder
handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured​black powder substitute."

Also in the Rifle section:

"A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded
with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder​substitute."


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## GrtWhtHntr (Dec 2, 2003)

I believe you can use the smokeless powder during the regular firearms season, just not the muzzleloader season. Seems like a dumb law, but welcome to MI.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Mike10 is asking about using smokeless powder in a muzzleloading rifle for firearm deer season in the shotgun zone. Smokeless powder is not a substitute for black powder.

The Michigan DNR 2010 Hunting and Trapping Guide states:

All Firearm Deer Seasons - Shotgun Zone
In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from Nov. 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a crossbow or bow and arrow. Crossbows are legal to use by a person 12 years of age or older during the Nov. 15-30 firearm deer season. Legal firearms are as follows:

A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.
A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

petronius said:


> Mike10 is asking about using smokeless powder in a muzzleloading rifle for firearm deer season in the shotgun zone. Smokeless powder is not a substitute for black powder.
> 
> The Michigan DNR 2010 Hunting and Trapping Guide states:
> 
> ...


acording to the wording in the hunting guide muzzle loaders must use black powder during any season.


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

Mike10 said:


> Hello everyone, I am a TN hunter who uses a smokeless muzzleloader and am planning on hunting Michigan this season. The place where I'll be hunting is a shotgun only zone. From what I've gathered, I can NOT use smokeless powder...Is that correct? I tried to find it in black and white on the MI DNR website but couldn't come up with a straight answer (I.e. no smokeless muzzleloaders can be used in the shotgun zone). However, I did find where it says black powder must be used, or a substitute to black powder, so does smokeless constitute a BP sub?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mike


Mike,

What it all boils down to, is that smokeless powder is not a black powder substitute in the eyes of the Michigan DNRE. I have been round and round with the brass in Lansing, and even boehr about this one enough to know where they stand. 

You cannot use smokeless powder statewide during the Muzzleloader Season. During the "All Firearms Season" (November 15-30), you still cannot use it in the Shotgun Zone, but you CAN use it in the Rifle Zone.

You can use your Smokeless Muzzleloader with the approved Black Powder Substitute. These powders would include, but not completely limited to the following. ANY Black Powder (Goex, Elephant, Schuetzen, Swiss, Graf and Sons, etc.), Pyrodex (RS, P, Pellets), Black Canyon, Clean Shot (FFg, FFFg, Pellets), Clear Shot, Triple Se7en (FFg, FFFg, Pellets, Magnum Pellets), Pinnacle, American Pioneer (Powder or Sticks), Shockeys Gold (Powder or Sticks), Black Mag ('2, '3, XP), and my recommendation for your Smokeless Muzzleloader, "Blackhorn 209".


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## Flyhack (Jul 12, 2009)

BUSTA'YOTE said:


> Mike,
> 
> you still cannot use it in the Shotgun Zone, but you CAN use it in the Rifle Zone.


Could you help me find that in the guide? Perhaps the page would help. I seem to be missing that information for some reason.


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

anyplace that sells hunting licences here will have them, its also online at the mi dnr website


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## Mike10 (Oct 30, 2010)

Guys, thank you all very much. Based on all the informative replies, I understand everything now and smokeless powder is not a BP sub, unfortunately. 

Thanks a bunch!


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## mparks (Sep 4, 2001)

It's probably one of the best jokes in the hunting industry. Western Powders would really rake in the dough in MI if folks weren't so addicted to PowerBelts and pelletized powder. Blackhorn 209 behaves more like smokeless that smokes than any kind of "black powder substitute".

Is there no one in Lansing educated enough to realize that prohibiting smokeless makes no sense with BH209 on the scene? It would only make sense if Western Powders were a Michigan based company. Right now, they have a monopoly. They are the only legal option in Zone 3 for those that want to realize the benefits of smokeless powder in a muzzleloader and be 100% legal.

Smokeless powder is way less of an advantage than a crossbow over a compound. I guess we need to get Hodgdon and DuPont to form a lobby if we ever want to get any change. Learn from the crossbow guys. Money talks...


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## Sam22 (Jan 22, 2003)

boehr said:


> Smokeless powder in a smokeless powder muzzleloader for the muzzleloading season is illegal.




Once he answers, no one else really has to..


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Sam22 said:


> Once he answers, no one else really has to..


Thanks but I will have to respectfully disagree, as my disclaimer states in my signature.


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

Flyhack said:


> Could you help me find that in the guide? Perhaps the page would help. I seem to be missing that information for some reason.


Flyhack,

That quote was taken out of context. Just so you know that smokeless in a muzzleloader is only legal during the All Firearms Deer Season that runs November 15-30, and ONLY in the Rifle Zone. Never legal in the Shotgun Zone during any Deer Season, and never legal during the Muzzleloader Season (Statewide).

As far as the wording in the Hunting Guide, it doesn't say you can use "Smokless Powder", it just omits the same wording as in the Shotgun Zone, and statewide Muzzleloader Season. This statement is not included in the All Firearms Deer Season for the Rifle Zone.



> A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.


Basically, any center fire rifle with "smokeless powder" is legal during the All Firearms Deer Saeason in the Rifle Zone, and at least they recognize that it would be silly to prohibit "smokeless powder" in a MUZZLELOADER during that season.


From the online 2010 Michigan Hunting & Trapping Guide. Color added.



> Nov. 15-30 Firearm Deer Season
> It is illegal for a person taking or attempting to take game to carry or possess afield a centerfire or muzzleloading rifle, a bow and arrow, a centerfire or black powder handgun, or a shotgun with buckshot, slug or ball loads or cut shells, unless you have in your possession a 2010 firearm deer, combination deer or antlerless deer license for the appropriate DMU, with an unused kill tag issued in your name, or a 2010 firearm deer, combination deer or antlerless deer license for the appropriate DMU issued in your name with an unused deer management assistance (DMA) permit kill tag or an unused managed deer hunting permit.
> 
> Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
> ...


http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31578--,00.html


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## Eslocklier (Oct 21, 2010)

Who makes a smokeless muzzleloader anyway? I don't know that I've ever seen one.


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## BUSTA'YOTE (Aug 26, 2003)

Eslocklier said:


> Who makes a smokeless muzzleloader anyway? I don't know that I've ever seen one.


Savage, New Ultra Light Arms (NULA), Swing Lock, Bad Bull, Smokeless Muzzleloading Inc. (SMI), and other Custom Rifle Builders.










http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/











http://www.newultralight.com/HTML/mz.html











http://www.swinglock.net/



















http://www.badbullmuzzleloaders.com/



http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/


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## Al L (Mar 22, 2001)

So is there an up date to0 the smokeless law in a ML during ML season?

I know they were attempting to change it a years back but I didn't stay up on it since I don't own a smokeless capable rifle.

 Al


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Al L said:


> So is there an up date to0 the smokeless law in a ML during ML season?
> 
> I know they were attempting to change it a years back but I didn't stay up on it since I don't own a smokeless capable rifle.
> 
> Al


No update. The law is the same as it has been.


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## Al L (Mar 22, 2001)

OK thanks, I had just got to wondering.

 Al


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