# 30-06 vs big bore



## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

amon said:


> I guess there are those of us that hunt and fish in the same old spots, year after year, with the same rods and guns, and play it safe. And then there are the people that seek new challenges, take risks, try something with a little more balls, and don't look at guns like wrenches or pliers.


 I understand the concept. Kinda like taking one with gramp's old 30-40. Makes you feel good. It's a tribute of sorts. All emotions aside, if a HUNTER only had the cash to buy one tool for shooting, why buy a big bore over an '06? You sacrifice range, so what do you gain? I think the general consensus is "nothing". Please don't take this wrong, I have no problem with the use of those calibers. I was just sort of bewildered by a post where some guy narrowed his search for an only rifle down to 444 or 45/70 when an '06 is considerably more versatile. CDAD

OK Jim, but you asked for it. This pic was taken with my old cell phone - in fading light so it is what it is.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

Get Out said:


> all depends on the application. Most times I use the .06 however if we are doing a drive I will pull out the Pre 64 94 winchester in .32 special.


 I actually killed my first deer - a button buck - with the same rifle at 14 years old. It was and still is my dads gun. Coincidentally, I happen have one of my own now.(Both pre-64)  CDAD


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Since your not really a "gun" person, Why worry much about cartridge? You should worry about the bullet first and foremost and use one that gets the job done without excess damage. I can ruin meat with any cartridge from .30-06 to .45/70 if I want to. Stick with your 06, buy a $25 Lee Handloader kit that will allow you to reload ammo without buying expensive tools and load your 06 with 180 grain Barnes Triple Shocks and work up a load that is accurate in your gun. Once you've done that, just shoot them in the lungs and be done with it. Or find a factory 06 laod with 150 Nosler Partitions or 180 grain Barnes bullets and your all set. 
No need to over think things.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

All that said, I'd take my .444 Marlin over an 06 everyday of the week! But, I'm a gun enthusiast and what I carry, and why matters to me almost has much as the hunt....atleast when we are talking about gun hunting in Michigan.


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## Jim..47 (May 5, 2009)

I understand the idea and why the Barnes bullet was developed, and I'm surely not going to knock it, but all anyone has to do is shoot them in the neck as close to the head as you want.

My father in law always huinted with an old 30-30 bolt action gun. It was an ugly thing, he probably didn't pay more then $25 for it, and it didn't always fire, butr he killed a lot of deer with by shooting them in the neck. He didn't have a scope on it either. As an added bonus there was also no meat lost. I dislike the 30-30 but he made it work for him.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Jim..47 said:


> I understand the idea and why the Barnes bullet was developed, and I'm surely not going to knock it, but all anyone has to do is shoot them in the neck as close to the head as you want.
> 
> My father in law always huinted with an old 30-30 bolt action gun. It was an ugly thing, he probably didn't pay more then $25 for it, and it didn't always fire, butr he killed a lot of deer with by shooting them in the neck. He didn't have a scope on it either. As an added bonus there was also no meat lost. I dislike the 30-30 but he made it work for him.


Do you know what it was? Winchester offered the model 54, Savage the 340 and 840s(?, Have to check this one), and Remington the Model 788.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Aside from deriding comments, There is a benifit to the big bores over over the standard cartridges and vice versa. That was the original intent of a post on the other forum for those who have not seen it. Keep in mind I am not knocking either, or promoting one or the other.

Big bores such as the 444 can be loaded with hard cast lead bullets at low velocity. This goes for 44 mag carbines as well. The function of these bullets is such that the Meplat(The flat part of the nose) is the deciding factor in the wound chanel. This can be changed to suit your needs. This is because these bullets at low velocity are not meant to expand, but penetrate straight through. On lung shots, you want a larger hole to induce quicker hemorrhaging. A none expanding 30, 277, or 24 caliber slug won't reliably do this. By reliably I mean "Every Single Time". If you do your part and put a 44 caliber bullet in the boiler room, it will always equal dead deer.

On the other hand, the standard cartridges are often easier for people who haven't learned how to correctly estimate range and compensate for bullet drop. Less is easier, even at 200 yards, about as far as anyone will get at a deer in Michigan(I know some are longer, This is average). They also utilize as someone pointed out, Plastic tipped bullets. Contrary to popular thought, these are the more "Devastating" bullet, as in small calibers such as a 270, they open up far faster than a simply soft lead tip. This earlier expansion, often right at the entrance, can lead to very large entrance holes, as well as the large exit hole if it passes through. These are the most common producers of the "Bang, Flop" shot.

As for Lighweight bullets as someone suggested, a 444 can be loaded up the same way. 180gr pistol bullets for coyote, or maybe if someone made a .430 sabot, the 22 bullets used in the 30-06 accellerator rounds.


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## MI.FISH-N-HUNTER (Feb 11, 2010)

My dad did a Buffalo hunt a couple years and and shot a 1300lb cow with his 30-06. The guide recommended the Winchester Balistic Silvertip since the gun was a little on the light side, well after missing three times, we decided to check and see if his scope had some how gotten bumped or something, we put up target on this Pine or Cedar tree and my dad shot clean through it about ( probably 3-3.5 foot diameter ) I was quite amazed with the penetration, even though it was a soft wood. I was really surprised my dad had missed on three ocassions but when the herd moves you don't want to accidently shoot two, he did have to put two bullets into her but she went no more than twenty yards after the first shot, I would say quite a versatile caliber with the right load.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

I forgot something in the last post. Forgive me, I am human. 

Please keep in mind that the reason for the 30-06 not being downloaded with standard bullets compared to hard cast in a 444 or 45-70 is that these bullets are designed for expansion at velocities. As the velocity drops off, so does expansion to the point where the expansion will be smaller than the actual diameter. The whole point of an expanding bullet in a 270 or 30-06 is to give you the diameter of a big bore slug inside and exiting the animal to aid in killing it as quick as is humanly possible. It is part of the ethics for being a good hunter, you don't want the animal to suffer. That is why prior to expanding bullets a 40 and 38 caliber cartridge were considered small bores, and when roundballs were around, the .50 was small, but the minimum you could use and get away with for any game.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

MI.FISH-N-HUNTER said:


> I was quite amazed with the penetration, even though it was a soft wood. I was really surprised my dad had missed on three ocassions but when the herd moves you don't want to accidently shoot two, he did have to put two bullets into her but she went no more than twenty yards after the first shot, I would say quite a versatile caliber with the right load.


Yep, they do penetrate. That is more on how the bullet is constructed, and companies have learned to make thicker jackets on them to compensate for the earlier and faster expansion. With bonded bullets now, they hold together as well as any other expanding bullet and penetration is exceptional.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Another Advantage argument for the big bores. In some localities that restrict rifle hunting, Law allows for a straight walled cartridge to be used in long barreled handguns such as the TC Encore. The 444 and 45-70 qualify. If your law does not restrict barrel length on handguns(Most only have a shortness restriction, generally 5.5 inches) then you can get a 18 inch barrel so chambered that will fit the encore action, with the pistol grip on it, and it still qualifies as legal for a handgun. But I doubt many people will split hairs like that.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

Brock, you still type too much.  Zero your 444 at 200, and at 300 its pushing 2 feet low (depending on load-numbers are typical of standard loads) If my '06 is zeroed at 200, she should be about 7 1/2 inches low at 300. I don't need a flipping calculator. I don't need a rangefinder either. For the most part X marks the spot. I can select from a vast array of bullets to accomplish just about any task a rifle could be asked to do. A decent load in my rifle will KILL any deer from point blank to 300+ yards without all the math. Then, I can change the load up and head out to Colorado and kill my elk. A HARD HITTING, flat shooting cartridge like the classic 30-06 doesn't get as popular as it is by accident. What's not to love? Where there's smoke, there's fire. Shoot straight. CDAD


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

brock_gingery86 said:


> Another Advantage argument for the big bores. In some localities that restrict rifle hunting, Law allows for a straight walled cartridge to be used in long barreled handguns such as the TC Encore. The 444 and 45-70 qualify. If your law does not restrict barrel length on handguns(Most only have a shortness restriction, generally 5.5 inches) then you can get a 18 inch barrel so chambered that will fit the encore action, with the pistol grip on it, and it still qualifies as legal for a handgun. But I doubt many people will split hairs like that.


 C'mon Brock.... Maybe on the moon, or somewhere else, but you're really reaching here. We're talking about rifles... And Michigan. CDAD

You sure do love that 444. Makes me wonder how you'd act if you'd have inherited an '06.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

An 06 is akin to, say a Honda Civic or a Toyota Corrola. Sure it gets you from point A to point B but I wouldn't want to be seen driving one. Good for little sisters and such. 


:lol:


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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

brock_gingery86 said:


> I forgot something in the last post. Forgive me, I am human.
> 
> Please keep in mind that the reason for the 30-06 not being downloaded with standard bullets compared to hard cast in a 444 or 45-70 is that these bullets are designed for expansion at velocities. *As the velocity drops off, so does expansion to the point where the expansion will be smaller than the actual diameter. *The whole point of an expanding bullet in a 270 or 30-06 is to give you the diameter of a big bore slug inside and exiting the animal to aid in killing it as quick as is humanly possible. It is part of the ethics for being a good hunter, you don't want the animal to suffer. That is why prior to expanding bullets a 40 and 38 caliber cartridge were considered small bores, and when roundballs were around, the .50 was small, but the minimum you could use and get away with for any game.


A shrinking bullet theory? Interesting. 

I think you mean the main purpose of an expanding bullet in a high powered rifle is to increase energy transfer to the target, right? The main intent of an expanding bullet is the expansion of the bullet itself - - to increase the surface area of the bullet (Pressure = Force / Area thing). It's got nothing to do with the bullet achieving the magical diameter of a "big bore slug", that is essentially a coincidence brought on by physics itself. Without getting into "temporary wound channels", "fluid cavitation" and the controversial topic of "hydrostatic shock", a bullet that exits the target did not transfer as much energy as it could have... end of story. 

Prior to modern bullets, large diameter weapons were used because of (here it comes again) basic firearms physics. When black powder was the only game in town, large bore diameters were used because they allow you to throw a massive projectile at the limited speed that BP is capable of. Big mass gave the projectile kinetic energy (KE=1/2*m*v^2) because a brick wall had been hit with how fast BP could push the bullet. Your argument on expansion is comparing apples to oranges because you ARE comparing black powder to smokeless.

I won't touch the ethics argument you propose.


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## TheCrawdad (May 9, 2009)

Swamp Monster said:


> An 06 is akin to, say a Honda Civic or a Toyota Corrola. Sure it gets you from point A to point B but I wouldn't want to be seen driving one. Good for little sisters and such.
> 
> 
> :lol:


 I would liken an '06 more to a late model crew cab 4x4 pickup. It can do just about anything well. A 45/70 would be perhaps an old Hudson Hornet. Huge, kinda slow, not extremely practical, but has that "cool" factor. Nothing wrong with it, Just don't plan it being a "daily driver". :lol: CDAD


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## Forever444 (Feb 17, 2011)

The advantages of using either is probably not noticeable in most cases. A 444 or 45/70 has a much larger surface area than a 30/06, the bullets are 2 or 3 times heavier, but they do move considerably slower. I wouldn't say the 444 does less meat damage from personal experience it does more, but with a much better blood trail than deer I have shot with the 30/06. But again I wouldn't say either is any better when hunting in Michigan where 95% of shots are going to be 40-150 yards. If you like the 30/06 hunt with that, I like my 444 better so you know what I'll be carrying 

I think alot of you just get on here to argue :lol:


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## brookie1 (Jan 26, 2011)

Perhaps someone could ask the deer. "Hey deer, are you more dead with a 45/70 or a 30.06"? Let us know what they think.


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

brookie1 said:


> Perhaps someone could ask the deer. "Hey deer, are you more dead with a 45/70 or a 30.06"? Let us know what they think.




:lol:


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ok, On the Subjec of Expansion, Just thought I would point out the Hypocrisy here. Quack addict stated that Expanding bullets are not meant to match a big bore projectile, but "is to increase energy transfer to the target, right?". But at the same time he says the main intent is "to increase the surface area of the bullet." What Area is increasing? Diameter. I'm sorry, But Transferring energy doesn't figure into it. The idea of Energy tansfer is that as a bullet passes through an animal, it slows down, expending energy inside the animal. There is a movement based on this thought that believes that Bullets that pass through an animal wastes energy, and that it should stay in the animal to dump all of it's energy there. Most hunters know that if you must tack an animal, An entry and Exit wound means better blood trail, and more blood out means quicker, more humane kills.


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