# Restoration of the rapids



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

Why are these developers from Colorado trying to restore the rapids? We have the 6th street dam in place for a reason. For 27 million dollars they could be kayaking right now. Build a artificial rapids park. It would be alot better anyways. Like the kind they have in the Olympic games. Also we really cannot let the obsurd developers dredge the grand river. What are they thinking.


----------



## Redbad (Apr 30, 2008)

The dam at 6th street was put in to divert water from the Grand into 2 mill races to power local businesses. Those businesses are long gone as are the mill races. The last time that the 6th street dam had maintenance performed was in the 1920's, so at some point it will fail unless additional maintenance is performed, to be paid for by???

40 some odd years ago there was a huge debate over the removal of a dam on the Muskegon river at Newaygo. Somehow everyone survived and the fishing on the Muskegon is as good as ever today.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

The day will come when that artificial concrete fish snagging wall is gone, I hope I am still alive to see it. It will benefit the whole river and a lot of fish species when it is gone. I fish upstream from a couple of other artificial walls that are now gone and if one knows how to actually read water and fish, the results are astounding. Dams are just like a heart/artery blockage and keep the river in a lesser stage of health than it could be. TEAR DOWN THAT WALL


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

Do you know about the developers that want to dredge from GR to bass river?


----------



## Sparky23 (Aug 15, 2007)

So is everyone that fishes below the dam a snagger? I guess everyone that fishes the musk. Is a snagger since they cant get past that? So becaise you choose to fish upriver a long drive for some it makes you a more thicle fiaherman....that wants dam gone so more fish get to you quicker.


----------



## slowpaya (Oct 23, 2011)

357Maximum said:


> The day , I hope I am still alive to see it. It will benefit the whole river and a lot of fish species when it is gone. Dams are just like a heart/artery blockage and keep the river in a lesser stage of health than it could be. TEAR DOWN THAT WALL


agree with ya here max


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

Sparky23 said:


> So is everyone that fishes below the dam a snagger? I guess everyone that fishes the musk. Is a snagger since they cant get past that? So becaise you choose to fish upriver a long drive for some it makes you a more thicle fiaherman....that wants dam gone so more fish get to you quicker.



Some of us realize not everything is about them shiny silver fish and that MaNature and Old Man River would like the chance to spawn some of the once upon a time residents/visitors that have not been able to reach their breeding grounds in far far too long because of what man has done to block em. If it were up to me all the dams not actually producing anything other than stagnation and pee warm water would be GONE....some of the coolest fish cannot make it up them watery staircases ya know.


----------



## Sparky23 (Aug 15, 2007)

Poor sturgeon that everyobe seems to now act like they care about. Walleye that do just fine. Great small mouth fishing...cat fishing....chrome fishing...tell me what other than the fish no body actually fishes for maters? If you want one so bad by all means travel to st. Claire. O. Wait. Not a destination fish


----------



## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

[QUOTE="357Maximum, post: 6296002, member: 10284. TEAR DOWN THAT WALL[/QUOTE] u sure u want that? fish get up stream now as it is, little fish need a place to hide. who ever is taking the dam out needs a much better plan, after this spring, n the flood/backup that shouldn't of happened (to many bridges down town. with such a short distance between them, the bridges them selfs need to be build different (more money) wider span between pillars...ya back in the day the dam was put in to help the city with its lumber business, travel, n fun(remember swimming,diving off the dam n in the west side canal) those days r gone. now all ya got is an old dam, that helps the city with its ice jam problem by breaking the ice up so it passes thru our city....do what yer gona do, but please do it right....don't wanta here oops see daisy,,act of god


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

riverbob said:


> 357Maximum said:
> 
> 
> > 357Maximum said:
> ...


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

I have a great idea! Let's get the state to consider removing the Soo locks. The fast rolling water that took place before there was the locks would bring in plenty of kayakers.


----------



## itchn2fish (Dec 15, 2005)

Dams are never good for any stream. Rivers want to move & change with time. All rivers will eventually reclaim/demolish any dam with out maintenance. This dam is going to be gone, either way. IMO, I look forward to seeing the rapids restored to what this city was named-after. But I really am enjoying this topic being debated on this site again.....


----------



## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Yeah, and let's close the Welland Canal, while we're at it.


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Sparky23 said:


> So is everyone that fishes below the dam a snagger? I guess everyone that fishes the musk. Is a snagger since they cant get past that? So becaise you choose to fish upriver a long drive for some it makes you a more thicle fiaherman....that wants dam gone so more fish get to you quicker.


Muskegon? Where 30 miles of rapids once existed from big rapids to croton,and people thousands of years ago survived from obtaining food from in and along it? That would be a better restoration than g.r.' s!.

It ain' t about how far or fast a fish moves. It' s about resoration of a habitat.
Where a dam is no longer viable ,the silt load above it and warming pond can go. Maybe choke out some zebra mussels too.
Social assthetics prevail though.


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

Ok, what do you think will happen to the rogue river? And the Thornapple, and any of the tribs. That feed the Grand. They will be just a trickle.


----------



## kzoofisher (Mar 6, 2011)

KMS said:


> Ok, what do you think will happen to the rogue river? And the Thornapple, and any of the tribs. That feed the Grand. They will be just a trickle.


Can you expand on this? I'm not getting how their flows would be effected.


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

The way it looks to me, removing the dam will allow for more flow velocity suctioning a lot more rogue river water, reducing its depth.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

KMS said:


> Ok, what do you think will happen to the rogue river? And the Thornapple, and any of the tribs. That feed the Grand. They will be just a trickle.



Where did you get your hydrological engineering degree at? I have worked with a bunch of em and even the really good one's are sometimes surprised with what happens or what does not happen when I dig my way upstream in flowages you can physically jump across. The tribs will be just fine, they'll just have a few new residents/visitors hanging out in them WHEN that wall is gone. I'll be so bold as to predict burbot will start breeding in the Rougue and a few other tribs when that fake fish barrier is gone.....do you have a problem with that? Will lake run flathead cats breeding in the Maple upset you? Will more naturally spawned walleyes upset you? Will more naturally spawned fish in general upset you? Will sturgeon breeding upstream of where the wall used to be upset you? Once that wall is gone them big DNR put and take fish delivery trucks will not be needed quite as bad as they are right now, of that I am sure. How much less ice jam issues will there be when Lake GR is drained and 20+ miles of river is no longer under a constant pre-flood condition 3/4 of the year? I have a lot more questions...I hope I live long enough to see some of them answered. If a vintage bridge or two in GR needs reworked for all of this to happen....I say bring it. The rewards will far outweigh the price, of that I am sure. There is a lot of good gravel just waiting for the fish to show you know.


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

Listen dude, I really don't care what happens to the grand. Any time you increase the flow of a water system because of a dam being removed the narrower the river gets. The upper grand above the dam is at places is a couple feet at best.That will all be sand bars. There are riffles right below the bridge where the rowing facility is. That will be bare gravel.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

Sounds like you may need to buy a canoe...DUDE :lol:


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

I have a canoe, don't need to buy one. Got a sled to, don't need to buy that either. You sure are an angry boy. I am all for having a"new"river. Any fish I catch is fine for me. I live to be on the grand especially at night fishing for flats. I just want a river fish from, that's all.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

Wanting a river that is closer to what MaNature intended makes me angry.....HA that's funny DUDE. I would love to see Webber gone too, but I am realistic that I will never live long enough to see that. 

FWIW I do not know many folks above the age of 17 that commonly use the term dude. I hate horses and they hate me back...I will never be a DUDE.


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

Ok, sport! Like I said, you are real angry. This thread is for fun not demanding your right and I am wrong.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

Not if, but when the dam is gone I hope you too enjoy the bounty that will be presented before ALL OF US, have a great day SIR. If I ever do find myself angry after the dam is gone, I promise that I will go pee in the river to help your sandbar issues downstream from me.


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

You really are real aren't you. You be good and try not to hurt anyone. And ya, let the fishing God look down on you and reward you.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

KMS said:


> You really are real aren't you. You be good and try not to hurt anyone. And ya, let the fishing God look down on you and reward you.



Passion is easily mistaken for anger when using a medium that no voice or inflection is even close possible with. Have fun with the flatties, I do.


----------



## kzoofisher (Mar 6, 2011)

KMS said:


> The way it looks to me, removing the dam will allow for more flow velocity suctioning a lot more rogue river water, reducing its depth.


I doubt the gradient will be increased enough to make much of a difference. Has anyone noticed any difference in flow below 6th Street with Lake Michigan up a few feet? If the velocity is increased it is more likely to cut a deeper channel than it is to leave sand bars anyway. There will be exposed bottom where the Grand was but that will grow over pretty quickly. Check out the improvements on the Pine and the Boardman after the dams came out.


----------



## Lumberman (Sep 27, 2010)

On a serious note. What will likely happen with the water levels below and above the damn? 

I though the damn regulated the river levels above the damn. Will all of the docks be 10 feet from the water.


----------



## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

357Maximum said:


> Where did you get your hydrological engineering degree at? I have worked with a bunch of em and even the really good one's are sometimes surprised with what happens or what does not happen when I dig my way upstream in flowages you can physically jump across. The tribs will be just fine, they'll just have a few new residents/visitors hanging out in them WHEN that wall is gone. I'll be so bold as to predict burbot will start breeding in the Rougue and a few other tribs when that fake fish barrier is gone.....do you have a problem with that? Will lake run flathead cats breeding in the Maple upset you? Will more naturally spawned walleyes upset you? Will more naturally spawned fish in general upset you? Will sturgeon breeding upstream of where the wall used to be upset you? Once that wall is gone them big DNR put and take fish delivery trucks will not be needed quite as bad as they are right now, of that I am sure. How much less ice jam issues will there be when Lake GR is drained and 20+ miles of river is no longer under a constant pre-flood condition 3/4 of the year? I have a lot more questions...I hope I live long enough to see some of them answered. If a vintage bridge or two in GR needs reworked for all of this to happen....I say bring it. The rewards will far outweigh the price, of that I am sure. There is a lot of good gravel just waiting for the fish to show you know.


 sounds good to me, i'm on board, hell ya! sturgeon out my door, a chance to catch a lake run flatty,wow....it's all in the plan i hope


----------



## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

kzoofisher said:


> I doubt the gradient will be increased enough to make much of a difference. Has anyone noticed any difference in flow below 6th Street with Lake Michigan up a few feet? If the velocity is increased it is more likely to cut a deeper channel than it is to leave sand bars anyway. There will be exposed bottom where the Grand was but that will grow over pretty quickly. Check out the improvements on the Pine and the Boardman after the dams came out.


 6th st. to the lake to far to notice a change, from the dam to rogue maybe 7 mi (u'd see a change )


----------



## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

Lumberman said:


> On a serious note. What will likely happen with the water levels below and above the damn?
> 
> I though the damn regulated the river levels above the damn. Will all of the docks be 10 feet from the water.
> 
> ...


 if the dam was gone right now (high water) i'd be fine, in the summer (when most yak's r out) the main channel would be 70 yards west (poor boating dept) if the river bottom fills in with new grass, i'll have fires after all the white cap home games


----------



## Sparky23 (Aug 15, 2007)

357Maximum said:


> Where did you get your hydrological engineering degree at? I have worked with a bunch of em and even the really good one's are sometimes surprised with what happens or what does not happen when I dig my way upstream in flowages you can physically jump across. The tribs will be just fine, they'll just have a few new residents/visitors hanging out in them WHEN that wall is gone. I'll be so bold as to predict burbot will start breeding in the Rougue and a few other tribs when that fake fish barrier is gone.....do you have a problem with that? Will lake run flathead cats breeding in the Maple upset you? Will more naturally spawned walleyes upset you? Will more naturally spawned fish in general upset you? Will sturgeon breeding upstream of where the wall used to be upset you? Once that wall is gone them big DNR put and take fish delivery trucks will not be needed quite as bad as they are right now, of that I am sure. How much less ice jam issues will there be when Lake GR is drained and 20+ miles of river is no longer under a constant pre-flood condition 3/4 of the year? I have a lot more questions...I hope I live long enough to see some of them answered. If a vintage bridge or two in GR needs reworked for all of this to happen....I say bring it. The rewards will far outweigh the price, of that I am sure. There is a lot of good gravel just waiting for the fish to show you know.


 you think that walleyes are gunna run that far or flat heads lol? The river will shrink in size amd the stentch downtown will be the laughing matter as much as your rant is. Look at the river above lyons and how much it shrank. The only fishing adverly efected will be the tribs amd downstream from gr. So everyone will the. Be in your backdoor upstream where you will be seeing the benifits of the next dam. If you wamt sturgeon so bad like i said go fish them on the st. Claire river. Walleye...well theres already a ton of them amd when lake runs come they do there thing far below the dam for the most part anyways. Not in season...so what are you gaining? Your upstream fishing will be better because nothing will slow down. Crowds on the rogue amd prarie will get even worse. All for some kayaking that can already be done amd isnt.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

Sparky23 said:


> you think that walleyes are gunna run that far or flat heads lol? The river will shrink in size amd the stentch downtown will be the laughing matter as much as your rant is. Look at the river above lyons and how much it shrank. The only fishing adverly efected will be the tribs amd downstream from gr. So everyone will the. Be in your backdoor upstream where you will be seeing the benifits of the next dam. If you wamt sturgeon so bad like i said go fish them on the st. Claire river. Walleye...well theres already a ton of them amd when lake runs come they do there thing far below the dam for the most part anyways. Not in season...so what are you gaining? Your upstream fishing will be better because nothing will slow down. Crowds on the rogue amd prarie will get even worse. All for some kayaking that can already be done amd isnt.



You think this is all about kayaks? That is laughable at best if so. Maybe you could write a check to fix that old ailing concrete wall that no longer serves any purpose and hasn't done so in many many years. Me I'll hitch more horse to the kayakers wagon if that is what is needed to fulfill my totally self serving desires. :lol: The dam is coming out with or without me and regardless of how you feel about your precious slab of vertical concrete. Like I already said....I just hope I am still around to see it happen. In a perfect world they would just detonate the dam thing during the spring rains and let MaNature step in and do what she does best....clean up our messes to the best of her ability.


----------



## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

It isn't if the dam will come out, it is when. All these dams in Michigan are nearing the ends of the lives. And thankfully they won't be replaced.


----------



## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

KMS said:


> Listen dude, I really don't care what happens to the grand. *Any time you increase the flow of a water system because of a dam being removed the narrower the river gets. The upper grand above the dam is at places is a couple feet at best.*That will all be sand bars. There are riffles right below the bridge where the rowing facility is. That will be bare gravel.


Where is the Grand River a couple feet wide, at best? Nowhere anybody with a boat can fish, I guarantee that. Maybe somewhere up by Jackson. 

So, removing 6th St dam will drain all of the tributaries of the Grand? Where did this logic come from? How come there are active tributaries of un-dammed rivers everywhere you go? The dam isn't a cork in a bottle. It is a structure that sits higher than the water level, and obstructs the riverway to back water up. But nothing more. How come Pine Creek, and the Bear River aren't dry? They are tributaries of the Big Manistee river, below the lowest barrier dam (Tippy) on that river. They surely are "draining" all the time, but for some strange reason they never actually run dry.  They've been doing that for quite a while. 1000's of years. 

The FLOW of the river is determined by the amount of water that comes down it, not by whether it is dammed, or not. Dams just slow/hold some of the water that flows down the rivers. They don't establish the amount of water that flows down any particular river/stream/creek. Groundwater springs, and runoff determine the flows of rivers. 

Most MI rivers were narrower, and deeper before the State was logged off. When logging happened, banks were de-stabilized, and collapsed, causing the rivers to become wider, and shallower. I've seen this change occur in the 40+ years I've been fishing for Salmon, and Steelhead, and it is worrisome to me. Will all of our bigger rivers someday be super-wide, and 2 feet deep, and filled with sand? It seems likely. Find a nice brush-choked river in northern MI that has 5-6 feet deep holes, and you will have found a Trout mecca. That is how MI rivers used to run, and they mostly had deep channels with gravel in them. Why is it that the re-introduction of Grayling hasn't been successful? Oh, right - because the rivers won't support them anymore. They need super clean cold water - which used to exist here before logging.


----------



## itchn2fish (Dec 15, 2005)

Yes. ALL of our rivers were narrower, deeper, colder...... & cleaner before our Great State was logged-off.....& before the dams were constructed...


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

When I said a couple feet, it was suppose to be deep, not wide.


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

Fishndude, the tribs.of the grand will be nothing like they are now. The grand flows a considerable amount more . When the dam is gone, smaller water flows will be affected. Didn't day they would dry up, but you should know that during the summer with a dam, and lack of any large amount of rain water, the grand is very shallow.


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

If it weren't for the rogue river dam, there would not be much of a stream.


----------



## KMS (May 7, 2017)

None of you guys are commenting on the dredging project that some developers want to do. Making the grand a constant 7 feet deep from downtown to the bass river rec. Area.


----------

