# Big Running Dogs in the Grouse Woods



## Lucky Dog

I see the term big running dog used here quite a bit and was wondering what everyone thought that was.

The poll is for the Grouse woods.


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## mudbat2128

My dogs spend most of thier time day between 80 to 150 yrds with a few casts out 180 in the woods any farther than that and I cant here the bell and I handle them most times. I consider them to be a mid range dogs. I use a Garmin so these numbers should be close.


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## kellyM87

I had my pup on the garmin at close to 500 a couple times, and he seems to run bigger in the woods.... luckily he seems to be reigning it in a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ESRGR8

kellyM87 said:


> I had my pup on the garmin at close to 500 a couple times, and he seems to run bigger in the woods.... luckily he seems to be reigning it in a bit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I had a pup like that at one time :yikes: the 1/2 mile punch outs really get on your nerves :rant: but then I had this guy from upnorth put a steering wheel on her, she spends most her day around the 150 mark lately.
Still keeps me on my toes.


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## Merimac

kellyM87 said:


> I had my pup on the garmin at close to 500 a couple times, and he seems to run bigger in the woods.... luckily he seems to be reigning it in a bit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope so. In the woods thats a long way out.


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## Rudi's Dad

I like to be able to hear my dogs bell or beeper. If its out of hearing, it too far. And NO, I dont want to buy a tracking collar.
The older I get the closer I want the dog to hunt, (bad hearing too)


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## dallasdog

do you know how long it takes you to catch up to the dog when it goes on point that far out? 500 yards is about a quarter mile lol you got to be kidding me it takes about 5 min to walk a quarter mile on pavement let alone in the grouse woods. i want to know how the birds hold so long. and if your not using a gps and you hear your bell go quiet how the hell do you even find the dog. i guess you have to have a gps to let your dog range that far. im not saying its wrong or disagree with letting your dog do it but it dont seem very practicle or realistic for that matter.


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## trackman

dallasdog said:


> do you know how long it takes you to catch up to the dog when it goes on point that far out? 500 yards is about a quarter mile lol you got to be kidding me it takes about 5 min to walk a quarter mile on pavement let alone in the grouse woods. i want to know how the birds hold so long. and if your not using a gps and you hear your bell go quiet how the hell do you even find the dog. i guess you have to have a gps to let your dog range that far. im not saying its wrong or disagree with letting your dog do it but it dont seem very practicle or realistic for that matter.


150 yds. in the michigan grouse woods is too far.IMO
im to fat for chasin a dog 500 yds. in the grouse woods.LOL


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## k9wernet

dallasdog said:


> i want to know how the birds hold so long.


Experience.

...it's not about the bird, it's about the dog. Not trying to be a smart A, but I used to think the same way. I like to keep MY dog in beep/bell range (100-150 yards MAX) most the time, but I have no doubt that there are dogs/handlers that work effectively at 200+. Remember, the question was "what is big running" not "where do you like to see your dog run"

Also, try this experiment: This spring, when there's no pressure to get the gun to the bird, head out with a stopwatch or better yet, a video camera. Let your dog hunt until he establishes point, and then start the timer. I know that for me, the beeper collar seems to slow time. What feels like 5 minutes hacking through the woods to make the flush is probably less than 1.

KW


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## WestCoastHunter

How about 0-150 yards as close working and anything above that bigger and bigger ranging.

Personally it irritates me to see a dog out more than 150 yards in the woods and frankly where I hunt it's too dangerous for the dog. People don't exactly creep down the road in their trucks on two track here.

If I lived in an area with wide open land (Montana, eastern WA or OR etc) I'd want a larger ranging dog. They can cover more ground than I can in a shorter amount of time.

All that said, my better dog in the woods at the moment will gladly hang out 200 yards ahead if he can get away with it and simply go and go in wide open space with seemingly no limit. He understands where the birds are in the woods and will make himself bloody trying to find them and keep going if I want him to. He's a handful, but every time I've doubted him he has shown me what an error that was. My middle dog is closer working typically but he has yet find and point a grouse or woodcock for me and he's simply not as tough (he's a nice "preserve dog"). Dog three is still too young to tell.


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## zeeke33

You'r in the grouse woods, you can see maybe 15 yards ahead. What is the advantage of your dog being 150 to 200 yards ahead. I know I can't find that dog in "less than a minute". It takes 15 to 20 seconds in the olympics to cover that distance lol. Just trying to learn a bit more about it'd the way it's done.


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## Bobby

Kelly is only commenting on high far out her PUPPY was a few times when she was running it. She's not stating that's the range it hunts, that she wants it to hunt or that this is a good place to be. That pup will get reigned in, I think it's with Bruce or Vance and will probably come around to be a fine grouse dog. It's out of good grouse dog stock. 

Good luck. I think that pup ranging out that far is a good sign rather than something to worry too much about. Sounds bold.


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## RecurveRx

Good observation Bob. 

As long as he's honest and finding birds, I don't worry too much about range.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## N M Mechanical

A 150+ yard dog takes a handler to work that dog different you can not take a calm stroll through the woods you have to work at a different pace. Most people don't want to work that hard
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ESRGR8

N M Mechanical said:


> A 150+ yard dog takes a handler to work that dog different you can not take a calm stroll through the woods you have to work at a different pace. Most people don't want to work that hard
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Another good observation.
No time to pack the pipe, watch the nothern flickers, and kick the dirt.
One boot in front of the other until you are back at the truck, no pit stops. It's not for everyone including me on some days and I got one of them type dogs. :sad:


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## dallasdog

i dont use a beeper or a bell on my dog and in good grouse cover you cant see more then 30 yards ... i just dotn understand how you find the dog out that far when it stops. i hunt a lot of different cover and sometimes i get into cedar swamps and such there is no way a dog that far can be effective. there are exceptions but im willing to bet that it dont work most of the time. 
and while your working so hard your breaking branches and cussing every stick poking you in the face mean while grouse is getting nervous. 
it might not mean your not willing to work, it might be just a different tactic. i have had better luck being quiet and swift footed then tromping as fast as i can to a dog that is 150 yards away.


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## mudbat2128

zeeke33 said:


> You'r in the grouse woods, you can see maybe 15 yards ahead. What is the advantage of your dog being 150 to 200 yards ahead. I know I can't find that dog in "less than a minute". It takes 15 to 20 seconds in the olympics to cover that distance lol. Just trying to learn a bit more about it'd the way it's done.


Their not just running a straight line ahead, they could be left right or anywhere in between covering ground so that I don't have to thats pretty much the purpose of owning a pointing dog in my own opinion. And the minute thing really doesnt matter much to me I've had birds run at 60 yds and birds that ran at 150 if they had that option.


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## dallasdog

they always run... thats what they do


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## Back woods

I don't work hard at all on a mature shooting dog running out to 200+ yards nor do I have a hard time finding them on point. Now a young pup that hasn't been educated in the fine art of handling is a different story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dallasdog

i was just curious to how it all worked. personally i like watching my dog work so i keep him where i can watch (for the most part). we do just fine that way... cheers!


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## slammer

Since I spend most of my time hunting with dogs that are hunting broke I like them within 100 yards in the grouse woods. Grouse don't always hold real well and my dogs most always go with the bird so having this happen when you can't see or can't control the situation just leads to issues. I have always had confidence my dogs will whoa when I tell them so in open cover when I can see what's up I let em roll 300+ if the conditions are such I believe they will hear me.


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## Northbound

dallasdog said:


> personally i like watching my dog work so i keep him where i can watch (for the most part).


That's what we're looking for.

In Aspen cuts or tag alder 100 yards is far ranging IMHO. 
Depending on the cover 40 to 80 yards is optimal for us.


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## BIGSP

Back woods said:


> I don't work hard at all on a mature shooting dog running out to 200+ yards nor do I have a hard time finding them on point. Now a young pup that hasn't been educated in the fine art of handling is a different story.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



But Bruce, you're in the top half of 1% of hunters/trainers etc. You have an ear for it and you have dogs that see more grouse in a year than most of our dogs will see in 3-5 years. 

I wouldn't mind my dog ranging that far if it could handle birds that far away. I just don't have a dog that can do it, yet. For me 150 is about the brink of where I want them. My dogs (the 2 that I have left) are 75-125 yard dogs and they do O.K. on grouse. I don't want to see my dogs much if ever when in the grouse woods. Stay out front, check in every once in a while at 50 yards or so and keep moving.


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## Merimac

BIGSP said:


> I wouldn't mind my dog ranging that far if it could handle birds that far away.


I would guess if your dog handles a bird at 50 yards he can handle it at 200 yards. The difference is if you are comfortable.

Ben


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## N M Mechanical

Merimac said:


> I would guess if your dog handles a bird at 50 yards he can handle it at 200 yards. The difference is if you are comfortable.
> 
> Ben[/QUOTE
> 
> ]As many have said time and time again the cover holds the birds. And knowing the covers that I hunt and many on this and other boards hunt we are hunting marginal covers and highly pressured birds so the dog at 200 yards could of handled the bird properly and by the time "I" get there the bird is taking flight and that is with technology to help locate the dog. Now if it is early season with dumb young birds or if you have covers that have low pressure and great cover may I be your friend
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scott Berg

dallasdog said:


> i dont use a beeper or a bell on my dog and in good grouse cover you cant see more then 30 yards ... *i just dotn understand* how you find the dog out that far when it stops. i hunt a lot of different cover and sometimes i get into cedar swamps and such *there is no way a dog that far can be effective*. there are exceptions but im willing to bet that it dont work most of the time.
> and while your working so hard your breaking branches and cussing every stick poking you in the face mean while grouse is getting nervous.
> it might not mean your not willing to work, it might be just a different tactic. i have had better luck being quiet and swift footed then tromping as fast as i can to a dog that is 150 yards away.


I bolded effective because that could be different things to different people. You can put birds in the bag shooting bumped birds and/or wild flushes but I personally dont give a dog credit for a mistake or doing nothing. 

Not much on the internet bothers me anymore but I have to tell you it makes me nuts when I see this particular argument. If the dog can handle birds, cutting its range in half is going to mean roughly half as many bird contacts and therefore half as many birds pointed. If you seek out the guys that get 5+ birds pointed per hour, they are running dogs that consistently range 125-150 yards laterally and occasionally 200 yard casts. And, you don't have to be Bruce Minard to have a dog capable of staying with you and 150 yards and handling birds, although it does not hurt.

A few birds will sneak off. A good dog should be capable of a relocation and end up nailing down a reasonable percentage of the birds that run so that's a fairly week argument too.

You need to go out with one of the hard cores like Dave Medema or Jay Johnson or any number of the guys that cover dog trial. You definitely won't be saying there is "no way". 
Linda G made the same argument after logging .8 finds per hour with a guy who averages in the neighborhood of 5 finds/hr. 

Now, if you prefer a slower, close working dog, great! For many people that style of dog makes perfect sense. But there is NO WAY that type of dog is going to be as productive as a dog that covers 2-3X as much ground and handles birds. I know a handful of very respected grouse guides. I would be happy to give you their number via PM and they will say exactly the same thing. Their clients pay them to produce pointed birds.

It all comes down to can the dog handle grouse or not. If it can, 2-5 minutes is not a problem. If I take your 3 mph pace on payment and cut it in half, you could travel 225 yards in 5 minutes. And, unless you are in alders or really thick young aspen, your pace is not going to be cut in half. You can get to most 150 yard finds within 2 minutes. If a dog cant handle that, its not a dog I want to own. Also keep in mind, that a good dog that ranges 50-150 yards is not missing the birds that the 75 yard dog finds and all of those birds between 75-150 yards are incremental productivity.
[/COLOR]
 
SRB


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## Steelheadfred

In order to have this discussion you also need to qualify your goals for the dog in the woods. Is it finding birds? Productive points? Killing grouse? What is your goal when you put that dog down ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

Scott Berg said:


> I bolded effective because that could be different things to different people. You can put birds in the bag shooting bumped birds and/or wild flushes but I personally dont give a dog credit for a mistake or doing nothing.
> 
> Not much on the internet bothers me anymore but I have to tell you it makes me nuts when I see this particular argument. If the dog can handle birds, cutting its range in half is going to mean roughly half as many bird contacts and therefore half as many birds pointed. If you seek out the guys that get 5+ birds pointed per hour, they are running dogs that consistently range 125-150 yards laterally and occasionally 200 yard casts. And, you don't have to be Bruce Minard to have a dog capable of staying with you and 150 yards and handling birds, although it does not hurt.
> 
> A few birds will sneak off. A good dog should be capable of a relocation and end up nailing down a reasonable percentage of the birds that run so that's a fairly week argument too.
> 
> You need to go out with one of the hard cores like Dave Medema or Jay Johnson or any number of the guys that cover dog trial. You definitely won't be saying there is "no way".
> Linda G made the same argument after logging .8 finds per hour with a guy who averages in the neighborhood of 5 finds/hr.
> 
> Now, if you prefer a slower, close working dog, great! For many people that style of dog makes perfect sense. But there is NO WAY that type of dog is going to be as productive as a dog that covers 2-3X as much ground and handles birds. I know a handful of very respected grouse guides. I would be happy to give you their number via PM and they will say exactly the same thing. Their clients pay them to produce pointed birds.
> 
> It all comes down to can the dog handle grouse or not. If it can, 2-5 minutes is not a problem. If I take your 3 mph pace on payment and cut it in half, you could travel 225 yards in 5 minutes. And, unless you are in alders or really thick young aspen, your pace is not going to be cut in half. You can get to most 150 yard finds within 2 minutes. If a dog cant handle that, its not a dog I want to own. Also keep in mind, that a good dog that ranges 50-150 yards is not missing the birds that the 75 yard dog finds and all of those birds between 75-150 yards are incremental productivity.
> [/COLOR]
> 
> SRB




Simply not true, finding five birds an hour in michigan deals with the guy driving the truck not the dogs range. You cant convince me otherwise cause i have the numbers to prove it with flushing dogs. Scott i respectfully disagree. The guys with the best and most covers have the best dogs, that is what Jay Johnson and Medema have, the dogs they pick fit their hunting style and program.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scott Berg

Steelheadfred said:


> Simply not true, finding five birds an hour in michigan deals with the guy driving the truck not the dogs range. You cant convince me otherwise cause i have the numbers to prove it with flushing dogs. Scott i respectfully disagree. The guys with the best and most covers have the best dogs, that is what Jay Johnson and Medema have, the dogs they pick fit their hunting style and program.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fred,

No doubt the guy driving the truck is a bif factor. However, in the same exact cover, pick any 75 yard dog you like and I will ask Dave TerHaar to put down Rockko or Elvis for how every much you are willing to wager, especially if it's later than the first 30 days of the season. And, I am not talking about bird contacts, I am talking about pointed birds. 

SRB


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## Merimac

Steelheadfred said:


> Simply not true, finding five birds an hour in michigan deals with the guy driving the truck not the dogs range. You cant convince me otherwise cause i have the numbers to prove it with flushing dogs. Scott i respectfully disagree. The guys with the best and most covers have the best dogs, that is what Jay Johnson and Medema have, the dogs they pick fit their hunting style and program.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fritz,
Once again I think we did this before. Put the dogs down in the same spot same time. Now what? Is a closer running dog as effective? That is the point of Scott's statement or how I interpreted his statement. I would agree with Scott your dog either handles birds or it does not. 

I think the next thing is Jim challenges Linda. 

BTW the Black Eye Peas are horrible! This may be the worst 1/2 time show ever.


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## Steelheadfred

Ok Scott, that is fine, i never said big running dogs could not do it, never have. My argument is that close working dogs can be just as productive. So lets pick a dog wood run in mature aspen, lets hit an AO hedge in a field, lets pick fingers of alder along a creek. I got X reasons just this season to base my opinions on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

Agree about the BEPs, horrible, like hunting behind a german dog  . Ok back on subject why are my flush rates similiar to the guys hunting trial bred dogs? Why are my flush rates similair to my buddy in the yoop hunting a 75 to 100 yard dog? Horses for courses, again i am not saying nor have i ever said big running dogs can't do it, but close working dogs and anything inbetween can also when a program and covers are taken into account to set the dog up for success.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## [email protected]

Think of the possibilities you could have a doubleheader on the same day as the sthf vs wd challenge lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Merimac

[email protected] said:


> Think of the possibilities you could have a doubleheader on the same day as the sthf vs wd challenge lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will challenge you Fricke who can hang with Bert Benshoof the longest. :lol:


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## BradU20

Steelheadfred said:


> Agree about the BEPs, horrible, like hunting behind a German dog  . Ok back on subject why are my flush rates similar to the guys hunting trial bred dogs? Why are my flush rates similar to my buddy in the yoop hunting a 75 to 100 yard dog? Horses for courses, again i am not saying nor have i ever said big running dogs can't do it, but close working dogs and anything in-between can also when a program and covers are taken into account to set the dog up for success.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fritz, you're talking about major league ball players. You, Yoop and the trial guys are not your average weekend grouse hunters. I'm not surprised at all that your flush rates are comparable. You scout hard, you hunt hard, you live in grouse country and you hunt covers that suit your dogs. 

I think I am agreeing with your point....but realizing that anyone who puts as much effort into the sport as those you listed is going to be successful.


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## RecurveRx

Measuring a season by flush rates and birds on the tail gate is not what I'm interested in. Spent the better part of two decades doing that with WTs. I'm done with the race.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kellyM87

Well first off, is this a chat about field trial grouse dogs or about hunting dogs?

If it is about hunting dogs a good range definately depends on the dog, and then the hunter. I like big running dogs, always have, but my close working llew, if she were to run too big I would be horrified. She seems to hold her birds well in the woods, but, in terms of manners she has few, and for her to run big would be a tough hunting experience. I like her being close, it makes for a more enjoyable, less stressful experience, and she still seems to find enough birds to make us happy :evil:

On the other hand, the pup I have who runs bigger, and who I want to be Coverdog, meaning that he will have to have manners, if he did not run very big I would be dissapointed. watching a dog run is one of the things I enjoy most. If he has manners his range wont matter, he will handle for me, hold point, and as long as it doesnt take hours to get to him the bird will still be there.

In terms of having to "keep up" with a big running dog to me does not make sense. Wouldnt you cover/walk more ground with a closer working dog? a big running dog covers the ground for you, hits the objectives, and moves on. and all you have to do is walk to him when he is standing their holding point. a close working dog you have to walk with them in the pattern you want to hunt, work your dogs toward to objectives, or pretty much every where you want to go, because they wont range far enough cover the all land or hit all the objectives themselves without being hunted toward them.

Does the time it takes to get to a dog on point on wild birds matter? have never had any issues when ive lost my llew on point, the is usually still there, but maybe this is a issue with other people? or my inexperience showing?

This is just my opinion and what I have noticed with my dogs. I think both types of dogs are nice, and both have advantages for different types of people. As a hunting dog, and as a dog I train myself, I would probably want my Llew, because she works close, is easy to keep track of, and if she makes mistakes I am in range to correct them (or to shoot).

In terms of trial dogs, or dogs that I want to be a finished hunting dog, I would choose my bigger running TM pup, every time. I wanna have fun and relax and let the dog run and do his job. I want to know he is getting out their and covering ground and hitting objectives. I wanna see him standing there proud on his birds while I walk to him. 

That is just my opinion, I am sure I will be disagreed with. But its like everything else in life, everyone wants something different. If they didn't we would have one breed of pointing dog, not multiple.


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## Merimac

RecurveRx said:


> Measuring a season by flush rates and birds on the tail gate is not what I'm interested in. Spent the better part of two decades doing that with WTs. I'm done with the race.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't care about dead birds as much but pointed birds does matter for me. If I did not care about bird numbers I would get a redbone coonhound.


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## [email protected]

Merimac said:


> I will challenge you Fricke who can hang with Bert Benshoof the longest. :lol:


You know the answer and it wasn't pretty, had to carry the load!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back woods

I'm a pretty good birddog myself. Pick your covers, I bet I could find just as many birds in the woods as any dog, flusher or pointer. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back woods

Good covers do not equate to good dogs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rugergundog

Regardless of how staunch, educated and all around effective the dog is pressured birds won't hold forever all the time. 

I have a larger ranging dog in the grouse woods. Nothing more frustrating to me than to have him locate and point a bird out 1oo+ yards through very heavy willow swamp type cover. By the time i work 1/2 way to him the bird has had enough of the fur ball eye lock and beep'n noise that it flushes. Ive seen my dog hold point in fairly open hardwood/pine areas from a far distance out....even as far as 50+yards seeing my dog hold solid the bird just had enough and boogies. "My" hunt preference is for 'em to keep it at or under 100m.

To each his own; i guess its why we have so many breeds and breeders to pick or dogs from.


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## Steelheadfred

Brad, i was debating with major leaguers, lol and i think you are agreeing with me. 

Bruce, i agree picking the right covers you be effective without a dog, but what we talk about this time of the year? 

To your last point, you would know better than i, it just seems like the best hunters and trialers i know seem to have the best spots and best dogs. Simple observations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kellyM87

Back woods said:


> Good covers do not equate to good dogs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Never really thought about it like that....


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## N M Mechanical

Back woods said:


> Good covers do not equate to good dogs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Disagree if a guy has a string of good covers and that dog gets xxx contacts per season that dog a majority of time will be better then the dog that gets xx contacts. The "wild" bird is the teacher is that not one of the reasons you and other trainers are working down south on wild birds?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back woods

Ok if u say so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back woods

A turd is a turd.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back woods

Why do some think all dogs are created equal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Linda G.

here we go again...

how did I get into this? "Linda G made the same argument after logging .8 finds per hour with a guy who averages in the neighborhood of 5 finds/hr." Where did those numbers come from?? On either end? Five finds an hour? Where? In Michigan? All the time or maybe once every three years? Maybe on opening day, when we're flushing family groups, or maybe if you're counting woodcock, too, but otherwise, c'mon...

I agree with Brad for the most part. There are people who hunt like it's their last hunt ever, like Fritz and some of the other guys, and there are those of us who go out there and want to walk...at a normal pace. 

Nor do most of us have the strength or long legs that Bruce has, nor are most of us out there working dogs in the woods or on the plains like he is every day. So most of us aren't even in the same league as people like Bruce and Fritz, and even a remote comparison is unfair. 

A lot of it also has to do with where we hunt, and the bird numbers in those area for that particular year. I would venture to say that not all of northern Michigan is the same, and some will find more birds than others, simply due to the habitat, or maybe the hatch that year, or the hunting pressure, or the weather on the day you hunt, or even the availability of food sources in each area. 

You can't ever get EXACT numbers, down to the decimal point, at least, not if you're hunting wild birds...there are too many variables. 

In Michigan, I want a dog that hunts within 150 yards or so...usually he's a lot closer than that. Hunt quiet and you'll put up plenty of birds, probably more than the dog that is frantically running all over the place at 200 yards putting up birds you'll never even know were there. If you have a flushing dog you'd better keep him close in Michigan grouse country or you'll never see any birds at all-either that, or you need to be a track star like Fritz and friends are. 

On the open plains, I want one that will move out a bit further...but no more than 200 or so. Again, much closer for a flushing dog. And most of our close hunting Michigan dogs will make the adjustment out west in a matter of a day or so, it's just a matter of getting to know the terrain.

I don't think anyone here thinks dogs are all created equal, with the exception that I think we'll all agree they all have four legs...but I know some that hunt just fine on three...LOL


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## Linda G.

too funny, I can just see that. Ranks right up there with the stories I've heard about bear dogs and truck tires...LOL


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## Back woods

Steelheadfred said:


> Brad, i was debating with major leaguers, lol and i think you are agreeing with me.
> 
> Bruce, i agree picking the right covers you be effective without a dog, but what we talk about this time of the year?
> 
> To your last point, you would know better than i, it just seems like the best hunters and trialers i know seem to have the best spots and best dogs. Simple observations.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If u had a pointer and u had awesome covers to work it in and it couldn't handle birds u would get one that could is my point. They are not created equal no matter how many birds u show them. So while u hunt those great covers u quest for a dog that can handle them. Once u find one that can it will prosper from that awesome cover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

Linda G. said:


> here we go again...


You're not kidding Linda!



> I agree with Brad for the most part. There are people who hunt like it's their last hunt ever, like Fritz and some of the other guys, and there are those of us who go out there and want to walk...at a normal pace.


Fair enough, I do just about everything to the fullest, don't know any other way to do it, be it hunting, golfing, or running a business. 



> Nor do most of us have the strength or long legs that Bruce has, nor are most of us out there working dogs in the woods or on the plains like he is every day. So most of us aren't even in the same league as people like Bruce and Fritz, and even a remote comparison is unfair.


Just for the record, we should be really lucky that Bruce, Scott Berg, Crosswinds and others take time to share knowledge on these boards, their performances speak for them.



> A lot of it also has to do with where we hunt, and the bird numbers in those area for that particular year. I would venture to say that not all of northern Michigan is the same, and some will find more birds than others, simply due to the habitat, or maybe the hatch that year, or even the availability of food sources in each area.


I don't think it is quite that simple, I think some folks are just plain better hunters/woodsman/lucky, how ever you want to describe it. I can stand next to Yoop on a steelhead stream, he is fishing a rod I built him, using the same thing I am, and he still out fishes me. We can trade spots, same result.



> In Michigan, I want a dog that hunts within 150 yards or so...usually he's a lot closer than that. Hunt quiet and you'll put up plenty of birds, probably more than the dog that is frantically running all over the place at 200 yards putting up birds you'll never even know were there. If you have a flushing dog you'd better keep him close in Michigan grouse country or you'll never see any birds at all-either that, or you need to be a track star like Fritz and friends are.


We do move fast through the woods, but I walk down a fairway fast and enter rooms fast, I don't know any other way to do it. Now, about flusher range, I have been the last few seasons letting em roll in some cover types, much bigger than I did just a few years ago, now I have control over them. But many times they are hunting at 50 yards or so depending on the time of year and cover type.


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## Steelheadfred

Back woods said:


> If u had a pointer and u had awesome covers to work it in and it couldn't handle birds u would get one that could is my point. They are not created equal no matter how many birds u show them. So while u hunt those great covers u quest for a dog that can handle them. Once u find one that can it will prosper from that awesome cover.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Makes complete sense, well said. 

Again it is one of the reasons I own flushing dogs, any dog can flush a grouse, it takes a special one to consistently point them!


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## Back woods

U know I cut my teeth on flushers. It takes a special flusher to get the job done right. When done right it is something to behold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back woods

Yours get it done right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back woods

Maybe I should vote now. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back woods

Now I never said what I think is big running in the woods. I like a dog that handles. Most dogs that run out to 200yards don't hang out there. They cast out to that distance then turn and work their way back in. They may point a bird while out 200yards but most of the time it will be within a 100 plus or minus.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

Back woods said:


> Yours get it done right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Bruce, means a lot to me, your advice and guidance over the years has been very much appreciated. 

Thanks for the updates on Arizona, hope Neal is keeping watch on your drive way.


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## N M Mechanical

Back woods said:


> If u had a pointer and u had awesome covers to work it in and it couldn't handle birds u would get one that could is my point. They are not created equal no matter how many birds u show them. So while u hunt those great covers u quest for a dog that can handle them. Once u find one that can it will prosper from that awesome cover.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correct that is what I am saying you can turn a D student into an "B" student with enough contacts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back woods

N M Mechanical said:


> Correct that is what I am saying you can turn a D student into an "B" student with enough contacts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe maybe not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bradg

Nice thread. I would like to hand it to y'all. If visited other gun dog forums and you seem to be able to disagree and not get nasty about it. Hats off.

My .02. I think there's a wide spread misunderstanding that big running dogs are more difficult to train. In my limited experience its been the opposite. Dogs with a ton of drive overcome my training mishaps much quicker and easier than dogs without it. Nothing harder than a dog with no confidence that will shut down when you try to correct something.


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## BIGSP

bradg said:


> Nice thread. I would like to hand it to y'all. If visited other gun dog forums and you seem to be able to disagree and not get nasty about it. Hats off.
> 
> My .02. I think there's a wide spread misunderstanding that big running dogs are more difficult to train. In my limited experience its been the opposite. Dogs with a ton of drive overcome my training mishaps much quicker and easier than dogs without it. Nothing harder than a dog with no confidence that will shut down when you try to correct something.


I don't think people are equating big running to hard to train. I think people are saying that the birds just won't hold for that long of a time period while a hunter approaches for 200 yards away. Jerk.:lol:


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## crosswind

Dave Medema said:


> Can someone please make a logical connection between the dogs range/speed and the speed of the hunter.
> 
> For the life of me, I can't figure out why people think that if your dog is fast, you have to be fast. Why can't I go for a nice walk while my dog is running hard? Dog runs hard, finds birds, I walk to dog/ birds and shoot. I'm not in a hurry.
> 
> This is an absolute disconnect for me. I've guided for people of all ages, abilities, and speeds with the same dogs. How is it that a 73 yo old lady with 2 hips replaced can hunt with my dogs, shoot birds and have a nice day?


Well said Dave. There are those that you just can't convince. No matter how much experience or proof you provide.LOL


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## Merimac

BIGSP said:


> I don't think people are equating big running to hard to train. I think people are saying that the birds just won't hold for that long of a time period while a hunter approaches for 200 yards away. Jerk.:lol:


I don't think this is true. I don't have any more or less luck getting to a pointed bird if they are 75 yards or 200 yards. If they are jumpy they are jumpy.


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## Bobby

My biggest running dog was my easiest dog to train. She's also the most honest. She handles like a dream. If I call she comes around. She doesn't run by good cover just to run big. But she'll run big to get to cover.

I like 'em to have the desire to run big, to me that means they have the desire to find birds. I can always reel them in. But you can't cast them way out. I've hunted with some boot polishing pointing dogs and I didn't like it. When I bird hunt, on a fine October day, I want to walk non chalantly down an old skid road with the dog working the cover to the side. When they stop I'll go in. If I wanted to bust brush all day and look like I spent a day sparring with Larry Holmes I'd get me one of those duck dogs for hunting p'tridge. But I don't want to do that. 

I don't need to see my dog to know what my dog is doing. I see the dog by the cadence of the bell. They come across the front within viewing range. I see enough of my dogs to enjoy the sight of them working. My favorite scene is a dog crossing the front, looking up to check in but never changing course, knowing where I am and then digging deep to the other side. No need to come check in with the boss. Crossing the front is enough for both of us. When that bell stops or the Garmin beeps, I anticipate the high heads and tails I'll see when I walk into a point. If I have a nice piece of dog work and never shoot my gun, great. If I kill a bird, that's the cream cheese frosting on a homemade carrot cake. 

That's what I like.


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## muckdog

Very well said Bobby! I feel the same!


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## Jay Johnson

Steelheadfred said:


> In order to have this discussion you also need to qualify your goals for the dog in the woods. Is it finding birds? Productive points? Killing grouse? What is your goal when you put that dog down ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Killing grouse is my goal and the reason I use the type of dogs that I use. 

As far as the original question I think a big running dog is one that is consistently punching out a couple hundred yards or more in their quest for birds. 

I absolutely can't stand a dog that wastes time and energy coming back in to check on me. I want them to hang out there digging for birds, sight checking me from a distance, and then just heading to the front. 

Late in the seasons when you can see through the woods it is a thing of beauty to see a dog hit an alder edge and take that edge out of sight going to the front. Many times I will continue walking several minutes after I last saw them and then faintly in the distance, I will hear the beeper indicating point in the direction they last where headed. More often than not they have got a bird stuck in some out of the way finger of cover. 

Such a dog is exciting and productive to hunt behind. 

Every time I have been hunting with someone and their dog has out-birded my dog it is very apparent what the reason was. Their dog either because of its extended range went to places my dog would have never checked, or, because of their superior speed located the birds that were in my dogs pattern of coverage before my dog could get there. 

It's not that my dog didn't have as much bird sense, didn't handle her birds as well, hunted less effectively, etc...She got beat because the other dog was equal in all these attributes AND covered more ground per unit time of hunting. 

That is why for as long as I still have my hearing, and have the ability to walk at a fast steady pace for long distances, I want a big running setter grouse dog.

That's the word from Lake Wobegon.


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## RecurveRx

That hits home Jay. 

I'm new to this game. I have what I consider an honest dog. A dog that I love and love to hunt over. That said, he doesn't set the woods on fire. He's a 60 yard dog all day long that will punch out to 120. And that's honest.

I spent a fair amount of time this past Summer and Fall hunting and training with a guy whom I consider a mentor. He has a couple of pointers and a setter. All of which have wheels. Especially the oldest Pointer. I have never asked, but I will bet he's sneaking up on 70. Even so, he handles those dogs and they handle grouse. A lot of grouse.

The best off handed compliment I have ever received went something like this. "Your dog's doing great. Handles birds nice. It's just tough on him when he's running with these dogs that cover so much ground. Makes it hard to get to the bird first. He's always backing."

A dog that finds a bird quickly is desirable to me.


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## RecurveRx

My goal is productive points. Killing a grouse is only consequential.


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## BIGSP

Merimac said:


> I don't think this is true. I don't have any more or less luck getting to a pointed bird if they are 75 yards or 200 yards. If they are jumpy they are jumpy.


Ben that may be true and it may be that my dogs just aren't that good either. I think one of the biggest problems about these discussions is most people haven't seen a really good grouse dog work. I've seen one and I've seen a bunch of nice dogs but only one great one. 

I wonder how many people are truly honest about how good or bad their dog is? Just a thought. 

I hoping my young pointer becomes a good to great dog. Only time will tell.


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## Jay Johnson

RecurveRx said:


> That hits home Jay.
> 
> I'm new to this game. I have what I consider an honest dog. A dog that I love and love to hunt over. That said, he doesn't set the woods on fire. He's a 60 yard dog all day long that will punch out to 120. And that's honest.
> 
> I spent a fair amount of time this past Summer and Fall hunting and training with a guy whom I consider a mentor. He has a couple of pointers and a setter. All of which have wheels. Especially the oldest Pointer. I have never asked, but I will bet he's sneaking up on 70. Even so, he handles those dogs and they handle grouse. A lot of grouse.
> 
> The best off handed compliment I have ever received went something like this. "Your dog's doing great. Handles birds nice. It's just tough on him when he's running with these dogs that cover so much ground. Makes it hard to get to the bird first. He's always backing."
> 
> A dog that finds a bird quickly is desirable to me.


Aren't mentors the best. I've learned a lot by paying attention to older guys who are considered to be accomplished grouse killers, good judges of dog flesh, and good dog handlers. 

A dog that is the most efficient and effective bird finder day in and day out over the length of a season is the most desirable to me. 

Over the years my partner and I have run anywhere from two to five dogs at a time. All these dogs have been capable grouse dogs in terms of pointing the birds they found, etc... Yes some where more effective than others but when hunted on their own, all but a couple would be considered good or better grouse dogs. 

When you run multiple dogs head to head over the length of a season it is eye opening. What we find is that year in and year out the dogs that run the most (as long as it is still hunting for the gun) are more often the ones pointing and the others get a lot of backing practice. And this idea that a big running dog misses birds closer in to where the hunter is walking has not panned out. The superior dog adjusts its range to the cover at hand, and finds birds close or far more often that the other dogs. And because of its drive and range, They take us to bonus birds in far away places that we would have otherwise never investigated. 

A dog like this that can hunt effectively several hours per day, three or more days a week over a 3-1/2 month season without sustaining an undue number of injuries or becoming so tore up that I can't bear to put them on the ground is a really, really special grouse gun dog.

I'd like to be able to order one like this about every eight years!


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## Scott Berg

Jay Johnson said:


> Aren't mentors the best. I've learned a lot by paying attention to older guys who are considered to be accomplished grouse killers, good judges of dog flesh, and good dog handlers.
> 
> A dog that is the most efficient and effective bird finder day in and day out over the length of a season is the most desirable to me.
> 
> Over the years my partner and I have run anywhere from two to five dogs at a time. All these dogs have been capable grouse dogs in terms of pointing the birds they found, etc... Yes some where more effective than others but when hunted on their own, all but a couple would be considered good or better grouse dogs.
> 
> When you run multiple dogs head to head over the length of a season it is eye opening. What we find is that year in and year out the dogs that run the most (as long as it is still hunting for the gun) are more often the ones pointing and the others get a lot of backing practice. And this idea that a big running dog misses birds closer in to where the hunter is walking has not panned out. The superior dog adjusts its range to the cover at hand, and finds birds close or far more often that the other dogs. And because of its drive and range, They take us to bonus birds in far away places that we would have otherwise never investigated.
> 
> A dog like this that can hunt effectively several hours per day, three or more days a week over a 3-1/2 month season without sustaining an undue number of injuries or becoming so tore up that I can't bear to put them on the ground is a really, really special grouse gun dog.
> 
> I'd like to be able to order one like this about every eight years!


Jay,

Thanks for contributing. Don't look now but you have become one of the guys described above. Your extensive experience is a real asset for those who are willing to utilize it to better understand grouse dogs.

I think the thing that gets a little lost in this reoccuring debate is that many are quite convinced that a dog can't hold grouse long enough. The fact is that a high percentage of dogs can't handle grouse all that well. That is a pivotal point. It can be done but most people do not place appropriate emphasis on bird handling ability. Dogs are chosen because the owner likes the breed, the look, the size, etc, etc. 

Jay, you have learned the difference over many years of witnessing the difference with truly capable grouse dogs. It's pretty hard to understand without that experience. I was fortunate to have a few of those mentors you talked about above when I was very young and I have been trying to master that trait in breeding dogs ever since those early impressions. Ignorance is bliss because the jobs a lot harder once you understand what it really takes.

The argument also goes to the same place every time and that is some variation of they want to see the dog work or they enjoy a leisurely pace. That is a perfectly legitimate position and everyone should hunt with the type of dog they like. And, I think that all of us who like a medium range hard charging dog are just fine with that position. Our argument is purely that short range equates to less productivty which IMO there is absolutely no question is the case. 

I would concede that a saavy hunter with a short dog could scout and find small spots and negate the effect somewhat. I have quite a few of these spots I use when I am trying to get initial bird exposures for puppies and it works nicely.

SRB


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## N M Mechanical

Originally Posted by Jay Johnson:
Aren't mentors the best. I've learned a lot by paying attention to older guys who are considered to be accomplished grouse killers, good judges of dog flesh, and good dog handlers. 

A dog that is the most efficient and effective bird finder day in and day out over the length of a season is the most desirable to me. 

Over the years my partner and I have run anywhere from two to five dogs at a time. All these dogs have been capable grouse dogs in terms of pointing the birds they found, etc... Yes some where more effective than others but when hunted on their own, all but a couple would be considered good or better grouse dogs. 

When you run multiple dogs head to head over the length of a season it is eye opening. What we find is that year in and year out the dogs that run the most (as long as it is still hunting for the gun) are more often the ones pointing and the others get a lot of backing practice. And this idea that a big running dog misses birds closer in to where the hunter is walking has not panned out. The superior dog adjusts its range to the cover at hand, and finds birds close or far more often that the other dogs. And because of its drive and range, They take us to bonus birds in far away places that we would have otherwise never investigated. 

A dog like this that can hunt effectively several hours per day, three or more days a week over a 3-1/2 month season without sustaining an undue number of injuries or becoming so tore up that I can't bear to put them on the ground is a really, really special grouse gun dog.

I'd like to be able to order one like this about every eight years!

would concede that a saavy hunter with a short dog could scout and find small spots and negate the effect somewhat. I have quite a few of these spots I use when I am trying to get initial bird exposures for puppies and it works nicely.

Well said. How many spots do any us have that the cover is more then 400 yards wide? All of my local covers are well under that and usually have a creek or ridge that splits it in half. Is the reason I have smaller covers is because my dogs range less or do I pick smaller covers because like mid range dogs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BIGSP

Scott Berg said:


> Jay,
> 
> Thanks for contributing. Don't look now but you have become one of the guys described above. Your extensive experience is a real asset for those who are willing to utilize it to better understand grouse dogs.
> 
> I think the thing that gets a little lost in this reoccuring debate is that many are quite convinced that a dog can't hold grouse long enough. The fact is that a high percentage of dogs can't handle grouse all that well. That is a pivotal point. It can be done but most people do not place appropriate emphasis on bird handling ability. Dogs are chosen because the owner likes the breed, the look, the size, etc, etc.
> 
> Jay, you have learned the difference over many years of witnessing the difference with truly capable grouse dogs. It's pretty hard to understand without that experience. I was fortunate to have a few of those mentors you talked about above when I was very young and I have been trying to master that trait in breeding dogs ever since those early impressions. Ignorance is bliss because the jobs a lot harder once you understand what it really takes.
> 
> The argument also goes to the same place every time and that is some variation of they want to see the dog work or they enjoy a leisurely pace. That is a perfectly legitimate position and everyone should hunt with the type of dog they like. And, I think that all of us who like a medium range hard charging dog are just fine with that position. Our argument is purely that short range equates to less productivty which IMO there is absolutely no question is the case.
> 
> I would concede that a saavy hunter with a short dog could scout and find small spots and negate the effect somewhat. I have quite a few of these spots I use when I am trying to get initial bird exposures for puppies and it works nicely.
> 
> SRB


Scott,

I for one don't doubt that there are a great many dogs that can handle birds at that range. My dogs can't. I would also bet mist dogs can't. What are your thoughts on that?


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## kek25

When speaking of grouse hunting productivity I don't compare the numbers to others as some on this forum try to do. 

In order to understand the concept that a big ranging dog is more productive, it is best to limit the comparison to oneself.

For instance, if the hunter isn't skilled at identifying covers that hold a quantity of grouse, then the big ranging dog will find the available grouse quicker and allow the hunter to visit more covers and find more available birds during the course of his/her hunting day (however long that may be); therefore, the big ranging dog is increasing that hunter's productivity.

Even if the hunter is skilled at identifying productive covers, the same principal applies. The big ranging dog will allow the hunter to cover more ground and visit more covers during the course of a hunting day. 

This is the reason I don't get involved in discussions concerning bird numbers. There are too many variables that are never defined in such discussions (i.e. length of hunting day, personal limits set on the number of covers visited per day, goals for a particular day depending on the age/experience of the dogs to be hunted on a given day, etc.) so you never have a true apples to apples comparison.

IMO, if you consider big ranging = more productivity on an individual basis it makes more sense. Frankly, for me the productivity argument in favor of owning a big ranging dog falls low on the scale of reasons to have one. I, personally, find it much more exciting to watch the big ranging dogs work the cover and ply their trade. But I'm an adrenalin junky. That reason for me is much higher on the scale of reasons for owning them.


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## kek25

Bigsp:

If your dogs can handle grouse at 75 yards, why can't they handle grouse at 200 yards?

If one feels the need to be close to the dog in order to ensure a shot at the bird, then the dog is not handling the bird; the hunter is handling the bird. The dog is just finding the bird.


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## BIGSP

kek25 said:


> Bigsp:
> 
> If your dogs can handle grouse at 75 yards, why can't they handle grouse at 200 yards?
> 
> If one feels the need to be close to the dog in order to ensure a shot at the bird, then the dog is not handling the bird; the hunter is handling the bird. The dog is just finding the bird.


Probably because I don't make good enough flushing attempts and I'm not patient enough to work around looking for the bird. Just being honest.

My dogs point those birds but, they just run off and then my dogs aren't real good at relocating them after they ran off. I think the birds get spookier when a human hunter enters the scenario. Just my observations.


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## WestCoastHunter

kek25 said:


> Bigsp:
> 
> If your dogs can handle grouse at 75 yards, why can't they handle grouse at 200 yards?
> 
> If one feels the need to be close to the dog in order to ensure a shot at the bird, then the dog is not handling the bird; the hunter is handling the bird. The dog is just finding the bird.


I think this depends on who you talk to.

It's like I said in the Brittany thread, the level of training needed to make a 200+ yard dog effective is, or rather can be, drastically different from that of a 50-150 yard dog. A handler can hoot "whoa" at his dog if it's 75 yards out and takes a step. You can't do that from 400 yards away...well you can, but so much for stealth in that scenerio.

Understand, I'm not saying there isn't a problem in the short range scenario I mention there. But realistically I think this is what the majority of people have and want. The guys I know who are looking for perfection from their dogs, and I mean people who trial or are just have an interest in perfection, work with their dogs like it is a religion. But not everyone can do that and not everyone cares enough to.

It's all fine and well to say you have big running dogs that your million year old granny can walk calmly behind and shoot birds over, it is indeed a fact. But realistically, you and your dogs represent a small elite minority of pointing dog owners and dogs and I think the majority views bird handling slightly different from how you do. 

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. Just pointing out that what's being thrown out there as examples probably doesn't represent what people can or are willing to try and attain with their dogs by and large. Big running for a lot of people just isn't going to cut it.


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## kek25

Bigsp:

That's fair. In my experience it takes a good 4 years before my dogs learn the relocation game. For me, it's one of the most enjoyable things to watch if they happen to get a runner within sight of me. The intensity that they display while working a moving bird is unmatched by anthing else they do.

WCH:

I understand what you're saying. I totally agree that preference concerning a dog's range is absolutely a personal choice. To me, debating differences in personal choice/taste concerning range, breed, etc. makes no sense at all. 

My comment was directed more toward someone (not bigsp) who may lack the confidence in their dog's bird-handling abilities such that the reason for wanting closer range is to compensate for the dog's shortcomings. But even that may be a personal choice, as it may be preferable for some to adjust their style of hunting in order to best match the dog's abilities. Nothing wrong with that. It all comes down to those qualities that are never defined in a lot of these discussions. Maybe the person doesn't have a lot of time to train the dog; or maybe the person doesn't have a lot of time to hunt; or maybe the person just likes the dog and would rather hunt with the dog as it is rather than move the dog on and try another one. I'm that way. Once a dog finds its way into our home it's got a place for life. If it can't keep up with the other dogs, I'll find time to hunt it alone. No biggie. Rather do that than have a dog that lacks total confidence and just becomes a backer.

Need to add that I don't think dogs who can handle birds at long range are an elite minority. If they have the right blood they will learn that taking a step causes the bird to flush and adjust themselves accordingly over time. That's been my experience with a lot of different dogs. They get to the point that when they make a bobble you can actually see the effect on them. I'm a weekend hunter with a few long weekends thrown in, and my grandmother has been gone for 20 years now; God rest her soul.


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## Firemedic

WestCoastHunter said:


> It's like I said in the Brittany thread, the* level of training needed to make a 200+ yard dog effective is, or rather can be, drastically different from that of a 50-150 yard dog.* A handler can hoot "*whoa" at his dog if it's 75 yards out and takes a step. You can't do that from 400 yards* away


If your dog is truly honest on birds at 50, why wouldn't he be at 200? 

And as far as whoa, if you broke the dog properly, then you shouldn't even have to tell the dog whoa. That is the fault of the training program, not the dog.


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## RecurveRx

Ben Berg said:


> I'm new to your site but thought I would add my two cents on this thread. I don't understand all this talk about how far the dog ran. A big running dog in the woods would be a Irish Wolf Hound.If you stop and think about it you will see I am correct. Please do not critique my post.
> Or be offended.



Seriously? Ben, do you and your brother not speak? Didn't he warn you? Get out now. :lol:


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## Scott Berg

> I agree but nothing wrong with good debate and networking.


 I agree. Resonable debate is constructive. Just think how much we could learn if the parties involved were actually willing to consider the other person's position.

I don't know how to multi quote but when I wrote " Not all breeds are created equal and not all dogs within a breed are anywhere near equal in terms of handling grouse. Most people are not going to get rid of the bottom 50-60% that does not handle grouse all that well. They are family companions. So, the answer is very different for about half of all pointing dogs being hunted on grouse. They are going to have to be pulled in to whatever range allows for a shot, even if that means within flushing dog range. " You wrote:

I agree, why own a pointing dog then? Get a flusher

This is not in the least an attempt at being a wise guy.  But, whats the difference between a flushing dog and a dog from a pointing breed that fails to handle game 100% of the time? 

SRB


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## Steelheadfred

Scott Berg said:


> I agree. Resonable debate is constructive. Just think how much we could learn if the parties involved were actually willing to consider the other person's position.


I hope you are not painting me into that corner, I for sure have learned lots from folks running bird going bird dogs. From the start, I was making the argument that short dogs can and do get it done to the same level as the big running dogs, at least when we talk about Lakes States Ruffed Grouse. Scott, you seem to be unwilling to concede or consider the other person's position? Arguing your theories and math when people are giving you actual on the ground experience that flies in your face of your argument. I would advise that a person with your size breeding operation has a lot more to lose in a thread like this, than gain. Being proven wrong is a bad business move for you at least in my opinion. You don't have a single picture on Berg Brothers Site of a dog in the grouse woods, dogs hunting grouse, or dead grouse. We are fortunate that someone with your knowledge participates, but then again it might be best to stay out of these type debates and focus on education and training tips threads.



> I agree, why own a pointing dog then? Get a flusher
> 
> This is not in the least an attempt at being a wise guy.  But, what&#8217;s the difference between a flushing dog and a dog from a pointing breed that fails to handle game 100% of the time?
> 
> SRB


Retrieving ability? Consistent Performance?


----------



## Zeboy

I almost hesitate to post on this thread. By this thread's standard I am only a "casual" grouse hunter. I have hunted grouse for 35 years and certainly shot my share.

In my opinion there is no disputing that a dog that ranges farther will find more birds and that a hunter(s) that covers more (good) ground will flush more birds. Identifying good cover and knowing how to hunt it are probably more important though.

After reading about 6 pages of this thread there is one point I think is being missed. All hunters need to find the speed and dog range (for them) that brings the most birds to hand. 

Fritz's system is all about moving fast, covering good ground and maximizing bird contacts. His theory is the more opportunites he has the more birds he will bag. It works for him! I hunted with Fritz once, I had no problem keeping up with that pace.

When I hunt by myself I choose to hunt a little slower than his pace. I realize that I will cover less ground and move fewer birds over the course of a day or season. I also know that I shoot better when I move at a more controlled pace anticipating where the bird is going to come from. I am willing to trade birds flushed for a better shooting percentage. It's what works best for me.

There is no Best method! Through experience, you need to find the dog range, dog breed and pace that works best FOR YOU. It's possible that one or all of these will change as we go through life.


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## kek25

Most of the people that have contributed to this discussion are speaking from personal experiences with the type of dog they own or the types of dogs they've hunted over.

I've noticed a defensive "air" on both sides of the fence and a tendency to migrate toward a "I'm a better grouse hunter than you" position when one side or the other becomes a little firmer in their advocacy for one type of dog or another. 

This discussion doesn't center on who is the best grouse hunter, but whether one type of dog over the other will be more productive for the individual hunter. I think if the discussion is kept at that level it will be more useful to the folks that would use this type of post to extract information in order to decide which dog would suit them. 

So here's the question. Assume the person looking at this thread is a novice , not the best at identifying productive cover, and seeks information about which type of dog to get. Which type of dog would better suit that person and why?

The guys that are skilled at finding productive cover already have years of experience with one kind of dog or another (or both), and as evidenced by this thread, are "set in their ways."


----------



## 2ESRGR8

kek25 said:


> So here's the question. Assume the person looking at this thread is a novice , not the best at identifying productive cover, and seeks information about which type of dog to get. Which type of dog would better suit that person and why?


Flushy- A half show/field bred Springer.
Pointy- A Am. Brit.
Both turn key out of the box with little to no training which equals enjoyable days afield the 8 times a season that dog gets to hunt when the only thing it knows is to come when called.


----------



## Steelheadfred

It is not that simple amongst the experienced crowd Keith, at least in my opinion. 

I believe that the dedicated grouse hunter is going to pick a dog that gives him the best chance to find and kill grouse while at the same time getting pleasing dog work to his/her eye. 

It is no different for me in how I do business, or fish, or play golf. I am going to pick the "option" that gives me the best chance for success. If I thought that a big running dog would find me more birds, put more birds in my vest, and bring me more enjoyment afield, I would get one. It is hard to have a discussion about "dog" and "grouse" without considering the "hunter" and "cover" to me they all go hand in hand. Again, some folks that just get it done, you just need to tip your hat to them and admire the work.

As to your other points about what is best for a novice, like this thread, tons of variables you would need to know first. Including life style, self trained or pro trained, number of days afield, and many, many more.


----------



## Steelheadfred

2ESRGR8 said:


> Flushy- A half show/field bred Springer.
> Pointy- A Am. Brit.
> Both turn key out of the box with little to no training which equals enjoyable days afield the 8 times a season that dog gets to hunt.


 
Scott,

How many "turn key" half show half field bred springers have you hunted grouse over?


----------



## 2ESRGR8

Steelheadfred said:


> Scott,
> 
> How many "turn key" half show half field bred springers have you hunted grouse over?


Zero.
I'm trying not to let my personal experiences influence my reply like Kek inferred. 

Oops. Edit that. I have hunted over one, in Indiana on wild pheasants, it was fun, she did good that day.


----------



## N M Mechanical

N M Mechanical said:


> Maybe this not the right board for this but how many guys that get over 75 grouse a year have a dog that punches it out pass 150 yards?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The reason I asked this question is the ones that reach those kind of #'s have a program that works very well for them and more then likely have hunted over all types of dogs since I am one of those new to the sport guys under 15 years of bird hunting and no mentor so learn on the fly and only the last 5-6 of serious grouse hunting and scouting. And I would love to be one of those guys in 15 years that can say I have hunted behind most types because as of now the few guys I hunt with have the same style dog as me I would love to hunt behind of one those "A" letter dogs with the range and style so I could your guys point of view but for know I have all my eggs in the basket of those dang german dogs so wish me luck. And thanks for the info via pm's to those who have sent

Nick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kek25

2ESRGR8 said:


> Zero.
> I'm trying not to let my personal experiences influence my reply like Kek inferred. . . .


Smart a#$ :lol:

I really think in the future you may be able to enlightent us all on this topic, Scott, given that you already have Jack who is an accomplished shorter ranging setter and Kate who appears to have the right tools to be able to produce and handle grouse in the future with some experience under her belt.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Keith what he also needs is a flushing dog then he could really educate us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ESRGR8

Steelheadfred said:


> Keith what he also needs is a flushing dog then he could really educate us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm open to it.
You know of any good litters coming soon?


----------



## kek25

Steelheadfred said:


> Keith what he also needs is a flushing dog then he could really educate us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or you to get a big-going pointing dog. :evilsmile


----------



## Steelheadfred

kek25 said:


> Or you to get a big-going pointing dog. :evilsmile


 
What would I eat then? Chicken?


----------



## kek25

Steelheadfred said:


> What would I eat then? Chicken?


Only if you don't shoot straight.


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## Scott Berg

Steelheadfred said:


> I hope you are not painting me into that corner, I for sure have learned lots from folks running bird going bird dogs. From the start, I was making the argument that short dogs can and do get it done to the same level as the big running dogs, at least when we talk about Lakes States Ruffed Grouse. Scott, you seem to be unwilling to concede or consider the other person's position? Arguing your theories and math when people are giving you actual on the ground experience that flies in your face of your argument. I would advise that a person with your size breeding operation has a lot more to lose in a thread like this, than gain. Being proven wrong is a bad business move for you at least in my opinion. You don't have a single picture on Berg Brothers Site of a dog in the grouse woods, dogs hunting grouse, or dead grouse. We are fortunate that someone with your knowledge participates, but then again it might be best to stay out of these type debates and focus on education and training tips threads.


WOW!!!!!! Slow down and consider the various possible context before you assume you are being insulted. Read the comment again. What it was meant to say is that dog people completely reject anything someone with a different preference has to say and that we *all* might benefit from considering the other person's position, including myself. The meaning was exactly the opposite of what you *assumed.*

The website is database driven. This design allows for the pedigree program that resides on the site and it also allows for a pedigree to be brought up on the site no matter where the dog appears on the site. Remember that people can look under litters for all of the members of Setters Unlimited or go to a specific kennels site. Perhaps most importantly, that design allows all of the participants on the site to maintain their own sites and avoid the time and cost associated with hiring help to maintain the site. 

The site needs to be updated to allow for more than one photo but for now one photo follows the dog's information. Interested parties tend to want to see an unobstructed side shot of the dog. That's why that type of photos is on the site. We need to add a photo gallery but the site is old and it makes more sense to completely rebuild the site. This is not your typical site that can be built for $2000. Because it's database driven and has several individual sites under this site, it requires security and an advanced design that allows for the members who have no ability to maintain a site to do that work themselves.

Once again you made *assumptions*.

This thread was about pointing dogs. I find it ironic that a guy who has never owned or developed a single pointing dog, feels qualified to instruct, scold and advise a guy who has developed hundreds. I am perfectly willing to concede a point, just not the point that grouse can't be handled at extended range. Should the concession here be from people who simply have not expereinced this or the guys who have observed it hundreds or even thousands of times. Do you really know more about this topic than Dave Hughes, Bruce Minard, Jim Tande, Jerry Kolter, Steve Grossman, Vance Butler, Lance Bressler, Robert Ecker, Jay Johnson, Dave Medema and on and on and on. No, I am not willing to concede a point where I have 30+ years of expereince and the lifetime of expereince of the people I listed telling me differently. 
[/COLOR] 
The shot about photos of grouse or grouse hunting is very deceitful on your part. You are quite aware that I have spent thousands of hours in the woods and developed hundreds of dogs in the woods. I even shared some kills numbers with you so you are quite aware I have had several 100+ seasons. Hold as firm as you like in your position but please dont discredit any of us my making suggestions you know not to be true. 

SRB


----------



## Scott Berg

Im with Brandy, 

Lets try one more time to make peace. Its obvious you are really angry and I apologize for being the source of that anger. In that post that started this mess, I consciously avoided calling you out. By not quoting and challenging that statement directly the onus on you was greatly reduced. I could be wrong, but I thought most people would not remember who made that statement, its just was not that memorable. I was trying to cut you some slack. 

I chose the title Lets play nice for the PM to try to convey there was no need for it to become a I am smarter than you exchange. The already heated nature of the exchange led to you interpret that message in the worst possible context. Given your experience, if you were to look at that message again, you would probably recognize I described by experience the way I did because NDAs (non-disclosure agreement) are standard in that type of engagement. I could not just say I do this sort of thing for, and named the specific company that established some credibility, And then said, so lets not trade I am smarter than you posts, my PM would have had a very different tone. Had I lost my head in that PM and dropped names I could have created a serious potential legal problem. 

I dont think I am better. I am however sure that I have a lot of experience. The reality is that experience does not count for much in this format. I promise that any post of the future will avoid any distribution of advice or opinion. The only people who want to hear my opinion already share it and there is no point of upsetting those who do not. 

I am truly sorry for my part in this debacle.

SRB


----------



## Steelheadfred

Screw it, you are correct Scott, "Everyone go get a Berg Brothers Setter and follow Vudo Grouse Jesus to the end of the Rainbow" good luck with your business, if we ever cross paths the first beer is on me.

The truth is folks, I still have a ton to learn about Grouse Hunting, but from my perspective, find a dog that suits you as a hunter, figure out where grouse live and the covers that suit you and your dog to the best advantage; and the only thing limiting you from many grouse dinners is time and shooting ability.


----------



## Grange

Lucky Dog said:


> Question for the folks that believe that big running dogs find more birds.
> 
> How often, or do you ever hunt over close ranging dogs for comparison? Or is your opinion based on the way you "think" it should be, or because that is the style of dog you own or are trying to sell?





Firemedic said:


> ok, I think everyone has made valid points on this argument, but how many people actually own/hunt with a pointer, and also with a flushing dog?


Every day I was in the woods chasing grouse and woodcock last season, which was over 50 days not including the week spent in SD, I had both my flushing dog (lab) and my pointing dog (english setter). During those days my setter, which is a much bigger ranging dog than my lab outproduced my lab almost every time. There were a few days when they both found the same amount of birds, but when it came to shootable birds well my setter wins hands down. I can stop take a picture, heel my lab and find the best shooting lane while my setter holds point. With my lab I may have a few seconds to prepare when I see the "windmill tail" or if she pauses before the flush, but I have to be quick.

According to my Garmin Astro my setter's normal range is anywhere from 80-150 yards but she will easily run out past 200 yards and has on several occasions broken 300 yards on casts. Since I've gotten my Astro I have been keeping track of the distant she points and how productive those points are. I can honestly say when my setter goes on point I have a fair amount of confidence there will be a bird there no matter what distance she is from me. I have worked multiple productive points that were over 200 yards. The majority of productive points came between 100 and 150 yards though that is probably because she is at that range most often. The number of unproductive points was about the same no matter what her range. 

I have looked for my setter for more than 10 minutes because of the heavy cover and ended up with a productive point. From my personal experience I think the harder the dog goes on point or even flushes in my lab's case the tighter the bird will hold. When I hear the bell stop quickly, which means a hard point, then I really don't worry about getting to my setter as quickly as I can.

My lab has many more days of grouse hunting under her belt. She has 7 seasons under her belt, though she was young on the first one, and each season was at least 30 days. My setter now has had 2 full seasons though each of those were 50+ days. So my lab had less days in the field than my setter at that age. On the flip side my lab wasn't competing with another dog. Bottom line is my setter out produces my lab and I firmly believe that is because of range. By the time my lab covers a productive microhabitat it has already been checked by my setter.

Before I got my setter I had plenty of luck with my lab. I grew up with mutiple different types of retrievers and I can confidently say my current lab is the best grouse dog of them all. I can not say with certainty that my setter is a better grouse dog than my lab at least right now since my lab has 5 more seasons on my setter but I can say her speed of ground coverage and range certainly give her an advantage.


----------



## Firemedic

N M Mechanical said:


> Where is Worm Dunker on all of this he only can bring this home to 400 post
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree Nick, there is another I can think of. :lol:


----------



## Bobby

dog whistle said:


> if you like those short working dogs- within gun range; why not just buy some concrete and pour a little slab and watch it dry. it' just as exciting


Charley
Concrete doesn't actually dry, it's an exothermic hydraulic reaction that creates the hard surface.

With that said, it doesn't change your conclusion, Right on!


----------



## Bobby

Steelheadfred said:


> Bob, stay on the outside of the Alder run, let that dog flush birds your way, .......


My dogs don't flush birds..............................very often.


----------



## Merimac

N M Mechanical said:


> Where is Worm Dunker on all of this he only can bring this home to 400 post
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is down in the Hollar! Kentucky.

I read it on the coverdog board.

And Grush,

I hunt in 3 states almost equal days in each(10). My cover size is similar in all states but they are different. 

Ben


----------



## 2ESRGR8

N M Mechanical said:


> Where is Worm Dunker on all of this he only can bring this home to 400 post
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's home, bedridden with bronchitis.


----------



## 2ESRGR8

dogwhistle said:


> if you like those short working dogs- within gun range; why not just buy some concrete and pour a little slab and watch it dry. it' just as exciting


Chicken eater.


----------



## Steelheadfred

2ESRGR8 said:


> Chicken eater.


 
Not according to the setter breeding Messiah from MN, it is just simple Math and if we were all smart as him we would understand that simply doubling a dogs range will double the bird finding when all aspects of the Universe and Paradigm are lined up. This in essence will double your shooting opportunities hence forth reducing the need for store purchased chicken returning your household to a more holistic poultry meal.

If you have questions you can read his resume in the private sector and realize you are just a pawn shop repair man without the ability to name drop in support of your position. At that point his name dropping leads to the question of how many Voodoo Grouse Jesus Setters are being campaigned by said "corner" at which point you learn "none." The counselor comes out of his corner at which he makes a motion as a hunting dog breeder, which then in effect renders his position of support as "painting them into a corner they may or may not want to spend the night in."


----------



## Jay Johnson

As a matter of fact I have some ruffed grouse wild rice soup simmering in the crockpot right now. mmm-mmm, good eating!


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## Steelheadfred

We had grouse nachos last night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dave Medema

Just survived a trip to DisneyWorld. I must have missed some fireworks. 

It's February. All good.


----------



## J-Lee

I am one who values, what Scott Berg has brought to this board. I hope he isn't run off by all this nonsense.


----------



## dogwhistle

Bobby said:


> Charley
> Concrete doesn't actually dry, it's an exothermic hydraulic reaction that creates the hard surface.
> 
> With that said, it doesn't change your conclusion, Right on!


who would watch the ky derby if belgians ran?

i think it takes me as long to locate the dog and figure which direction he's pointing the bird as it does to reach a 200-300 yard point.

i think the trialers phrase is "out on a limb'. ryan sent me a dvd of a dog pointing out on a limb. something to watch even on dvd.

there are enough things to trip over in the woods aside from tripping over your dogs. i have a dog out of impeccable trial lines that sometimes just . i'm not going to put her down, i've taken enough life, including dogs. i'm going to try a quail recall pen in the woods. see if that fires her up.


----------



## kek25

J-Lee said:


> I am one who values, what Scott Berg has brought to this board. I hope he isn't run off by all this nonsense.


Scott has thick skin. I don't think this kind of stuff will keep him from participating.

Fritz: Not sure who the counselor is you refer to in your last post, but beware, I have some juicy PM's saved up if you're not careful. :corkysm55 I'm not a breeder of hunting dogs by any stretch. I will breed for a pup out of Roy for myself at some time in the future when he is gone. If need be I'll keep the entire litter. We've got 12 dogs we take care of now with room for at least 10 more. By the time I'm ready for that litter we could be down to just a couple dogs. Probably do like George Forman; Voodoo Grouse Jesus I, Voodoo Grouse Jesus II, etc. Roy's range is close to Jake's range-- maybe a little bigger.

I had a 1" ribeye with sauteed morels and onions for dinner last night. Beats grouse hands down. Down to my last 1/2 bell jar of dried morels. Come on spring!!

I still maintain that if a person is a novice without the experience of identifying productive grouse cover he/she is better off with a dog that will take him/her to the birds vs. getting a dog that he/she has to take to the birds.


----------



## slammer

Keith check out Paco's website, he has a cool video of his dog running with George thorogood rocking who do you love.
I highly encourge you to do the same with some voodoo via godsmack rolling with your setters.


----------



## Steelheadfred

kek25 said:


> Scott has thick skin. I don't think this kind of stuff will keep him from participating.
> 
> Fritz: Not sure who the counselor is you refer to in your last post, but beware, I have some juicy PM's saved up if you're not careful. :corkysm55 I'm not a breeder of hunting dogs by any stretch. I will breed for a pup out of Roy for myself at some time in the future when he is gone. If need be I'll keep the entire litter. We've got 12 dogs we take care of now with room for at least 10 more. By the time I'm ready for that litter we could be down to just a couple dogs. Probably do like George Forman; Voodoo Grouse Jesus I, Voodoo Grouse Jesus II, etc. Roy's range is close to Jake's range-- maybe a little bigger.
> 
> I had a 1" ribeye with sauteed morels and onions for dinner last night. Beats grouse hands down. Down to my last 1/2 bell jar of dried morels. Come on spring!!
> 
> I still maintain that if a person is a novice without the experience of identifying productive grouse cover he/she is better off with a dog that will take him/her to the birds vs. getting a dog that he/she has to take to the birds.


 
Good stuff Keith, can you work in credit for the names for me?

When I referred to Berg's couselor I was speaking about his name dropping ways....not you.....

Good luck with your litter. Keep us posted, wish I could have more dogs, I would ad a cocker first, then who knows.

Fritz


----------



## kek25

slammer said:


> Keith check out Paco's website, he has a cool video of his dog running with George thorogood rocking who do you love.
> I highly encourge you to do the same with some voodoo via godsmack rolling with your setters.


I've tried, Harry. But this is what happens. :lol: Click on the writing at the top of the frame and the video will play.









Gonna make it a goal to get a grouse video or 2 this year. Just coudn't bring myself to try it last year and risk messing up a shot opportunity to kill one.


----------



## k9wernet

slammer said:


> Keith check out Paco's website, he has a cool video of his dog running with George thorogood rocking who do you love.
> I highly encourge you to do the same with some voodoo via godsmack rolling with your setters.


Godsmack?

Howsabouts some MUSIC:

[youtube]WoAXW30mMAg[/youtube]

Now all I need is a setter and some water for him to walk on...

KW


----------



## kek25

Steelheadfred said:


> Good stuff Keith, can you work in credit for the names for me?
> 
> When I referred to Berg's couselor I was speaking about his name dropping ways....not you.....
> 
> Good luck with your litter. Keep us posted, wish I could have more dogs, I would ad a cocker first, then who knows.
> 
> Fritz


 
I figured it wasn't me you were referring to, Fritz; I was just being an [email protected]#. :lol: Seriously though, Voodoo Kennels has a nice ring to it and if ever used I will certainly give you the credit.


----------



## R. Ford

For the record, I voted in the poll that 200+ yds. is what I considered a big running dog. When I voted, I took that to mean maximum range. As the thread evolved, I picked up info that led me to believe that some spoke in avg. yds. 
Is a dog that averages a 90 yd. range, but pokes out to 200+ yards a 'big running' dog or a 'less than a 100 yds' dog?


----------



## FindTheBird

kek25 said:


> I've tried, Harry. But this is what happens. :lol: Click on the DSCN8605.mp4 video by kek25 - Photobucket
> 
> DSCN8605.mp4 video by kek25 - Photobucket
> 
> I am going to try to get more when the cover is thinner.


Keith, that's way better than my lame northwoods videographic attempts at Gladwin: ever see the Blair Witch Project?:lol:


----------



## kek25

FindTheBird said:


> Keith, that's way better than my lame northwoods videographic attempts at Gladwin: ever see the Blair Witch Project?:lol:


I've made a few of those myself, Mike. Watched them and immediately felt like I was going to puke. :lol:

I added one of the woodcock clips I took last year to my post above. I'm going to do my damndest to get a few grouse clips this year.


----------



## Scott Berg

Steelheadfred said:


> Good stuff Keith, can you work in credit for the names for me?
> 
> When I referred to Berg's couselor I was speaking about his name dropping ways....not you.....
> 
> Fritz


Yes, Fritz I do have a great deal of respect for those people I listed and give them credit as being the most knowledgeable grouse dog (pointing breed) guys in the country. Unlike you, at 33 I still had a lot to learn so I looked to them and their predecessors for knowledge. I appreciate the knowledge they passed along. Actually, I am still learning and still traveling each year to spend time training with experience pointing dog people and I have been breeding dogs longer than you have been alive. I am just way slower than you. At your age I had only killed 1365 grouse and owned only a few dozen dogs. The rest of us just dont have what it takes to have a better understanding of pointing dogs than the men (& woman) I mentioned having never owned a pointing dog. At least I dont. I dont want to speak for others who might have your same gift.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Scott Berg said:


> Yes, Fritz I do have a great deal of respect for those people I listed and give them credit as being the most knowledgeable grouse dog (pointing breed) guys in the country. Unlike you, at 33 I still had a lot to learn so I looked to them and their predecessors for knowledge. I appreciate the knowledge they passed along. Actually, I am still learning and still traveling each year to spend time training with experience pointing dog people and I have been breeding dogs longer than you have been alive. I am just way slower than you. At your age I had only killed 1365 grouse and owned only a few dozen dogs. The rest of us just don&#8217;t have what it takes to have a better understanding of pointing dogs than the men (& woman) I mentioned having never owned a pointing dog. At least I don&#8217;t. I don&#8217;t want to speak for others who might have your same gift.


Scott, you get really defensive and can't get out of your own way, you are not doing yourself any favors, you have far more to lose in this fight than I, I am just a grouse hunter with a couple duck dogs, I don't have to sell puppies. It is like the old guy on the river that told my brother who was 11 years old at the time and was hooking fish just upstream from him; "Son, I have been fishing here for 30 years and I aint gonna stand here and watch a little kid, get the hell out of here little kid." Then my 11 year old brother proceeded to hook far more fish then him that day, when we created a little space for the kid. See what I am saying? 

Again, I never said, never have said, that big going pointing dogs can't get it done, nor did I say that you were wrong, or the names you dropped were wrong, I simply argued that a guy with a short dog could. Nothing more nothing less. I pointed out holes in your theories and math that did not match my on the ground experience, that was it. You wan't to paint me into the corner of know it all, find out where I ever said I was the best and your knowledge was worthless? Your knowledge is fantastic, said that for a long time, said we are fortunate you participate on these threads, but what your showing is some bias, kennel blindness, and ignorance towards folks that own different dogs than you.


I am glad you are successful, good for you, I am impressed by the folks you name, I just would prefer you speak to what you know, as I have done, instead of listing folks that may or maynot want to be tied to this thread.

It is shocking that you have killed that many birds, bred that many dogs, and won that many trials and still can't concede that other folks way can be just as effective as yours. It is just grouse hunting.


----------



## Jay Johnson

Best to all in your grouse hunting endeavors!


----------



## [email protected]

Steelheadfred said:


> [/FONT]
> 
> 
> Not so fast my friend. If I really believed I could find and kill more birds with a big going pointing dog I would get one. I am a steelheader, not a fly fisherman, not a float fisherman, a steelheader. I use what works best for the conditions that present themselves. The fact is there are better bird dogs, better shots, and better hunters than I.


Fritz, I swear I remember reading a quote around a year ago by you saying something along the lines of if you owned a dog like Rudy that you could increase your kills by 50%? Like I said, pulling this from memory, but pretty sure it was something along those lines. Just curious how that thought plays into this topic :evilsmile


----------



## k9wernet

Steelheadfred said:


> It is just grouse hunting.


Sounds like Fritz is broken, guys. Time to kick him out of the club!

_JUST _grouse hunting, c'mon now...

KW


----------



## BIGSP

[email protected] said:


> Fritz, I swear I remember reading a quote around a year ago by you saying something along the lines of if you owned a dog like Rudy that you could increase your kills by 50%? Like I said, pulling this from memory, but pretty sure it was something along those lines. Just curious how that thought plays into this topic :evilsmile


That's champion dog too most of us will never see a dog like that.


----------



## Steelheadfred

[email protected] said:


> Fritz, I swear I remember reading a quote around a year ago by you saying something along the lines of if you owned a dog like Rudy that you could increase your kills by 50%? Like I said, pulling this from memory, but pretty sure it was something along those lines. Just curious how that thought plays into this topic :evilsmile


Well unlike Mr. Berg (who drops names of folks he has never spoken with) I don't want to speak for Dan Ross, or Bruce. What I will say is "Yes" I did that say that. I have hunted and killed Grouse over Rudy a few different times, have you?

You are talking about one of the top what two, three, maybe the best grouse dog in the country? I believe most people would double if not tripple the number of birds they kill a season over that dog. An exceptional animal with one of the top what two, three, maybe the best grouse dog trainer in the country? I'm just a guy with two duck dogs trying to stick up for hunters who have shorter ranging dogs.

With all that said, the few times I have hunted with and shot birds over Rudy, she was certainly not a big ranging grouse dog, she handles on a string with very few commands. The last time I hunted with Rudy was September 15th, 2008, she had 4-6 finds I think, I killed two birds, Bruce made a long shot on a bird Rudy found a ways from where it went down. My guess is Rudy averaged 100 yards in those two hours, some times closer some times a tad farther. 

I believe Find the Bird has gunned over her more recently, maybe he can chime in to her range, speak to Rock's range.


----------



## FindTheBird

Steelheadfred said:


> I believe Find the Bird has gunned over her more recently, maybe he can chime in to her range, speak to Rock's range.


Fritz, unfortunately, I've never had the pleasure of gunning over Rudy (Bruce and Dan, please put me on the list:lol. I have, however trained with her and have watched her in a bunch of trials where her runs have at times, have been nothing short of special.

Rudy seems to be about a medium ranging trial dog, probably 100-200 yards or so and she seems to be quite an easy dog to handle--a dog that most hunters could fairly comfortably gun over and kill a butt-load of birds. I'm guessing the longest find I've seen her make is about 200 yards (last Spring on a training run). A wild guess would be that her boy Rock is maybe 30% bigger but I think that Bruce could give a much more accurate depiction of that estimate.


----------



## Ben Berg

Lucky Dog has your question been sufficently answered?


----------



## wirehair

dogwhistle said:


> if you like those short working dogs- within gun range; why not just buy some concrete and pour a little slab and watch it dry. it' just as exciting


It's all personal preferrence. What is there not to like about pointing dogs working in gun range? I prefer to be in the in the trenches working with the dog(s) not in the grandstands hoping to catch a glimpse now and then. My favorite hunt is walking through the nasties (where birds are) with 2 giant pointers. Watching one of the dogs catch a scent then work it to a point is why I feed them all year.


----------



## Lucky Dog

Ben Berg said:


> Lucky Dog has your question been sufficently answered?


It might take another ten pages to sort this all out for sure.

The point of the poll, was to show that many of the range disagreements on here might be the result of peoples different take on what a close - medium - or long range dog is.

For example, my most productive dog right now is a 50-80 yard dog. He produces a lot of birds for the gun, and I've always considered him a close working to real close working dog. Looking at the poll results, some would make him out to be a big runner. Everyone has a different take on range.

Carry on.


----------



## Ben Berg

Lucky Dog I'm wondering if you might really be Conrad Dobler from the old Miller lite commercials


----------



## Lucky Dog

Ben Berg said:


> Lucky Dog I'm wondering if you might really be Conrad Dobler from the old Miller lite commercials



I've been called that before.


I've got a couple other polls in mind when this one settles down.:yikes:


----------



## Scott Berg

Steelheadfred said:


> Well unlike Mr. Berg (who drops names of folks he has never spoken with) I don't want to speak for Dan Ross, or Bruce. What I will say is "Yes" I did that say that. I have hunted and killed Grouse over Rudy a few different times, have you?


Tell you what Fritz, you quit posting personal attacks and misrepresentations and I will agree to never offer a piece of advice or opinion on this forum ever again. Nobody else is as dumb as I am to challenge your infinite wisdom of dogs. You win, you are the king. Deal?

BTW, you also stated I just could not concede that guys with other types of dogs could not be effective. You continue to fail to recognize my argument has absolutely NOTHING to do with how many you kill. My argument has been purely about maximizing the number getting pointed. I conceded your point and made this same statement in this thread (#139) I whole heartedly agree and even quoted your statement that killing grouse was more about the guy driving the truck. I was never arguing that point nor do I care about that point. I never EVER made one comparison about how many you could kill with a pointing dog vs. a flushing dog. The person who has consistently insisted their method was the most effective for killing was you. Would you like me to dig up how many times you said if I thought I could kill more grouse with a big ranging pointing dog. You just cant seem to grasp that my position in this thread and most others has been purely about how to get the most birds pointed. If all that matters is kills, you could really pile up some numbers if you added ground swatting and shooting them out of the window on trails to any method.

Yesterday you determined I know nothing about grouse hunting by the photos on my website so I had to take time to defend myself. It was a ridiculous and probably purposeful deception because I am quite sure you knew better. Today, you presume to know who I have spoken to and who I have not. Now, I have to take time to defend myself again and answer you claim or stay silent and allow you misconception to appear true. 

There is one person I have never spoken to and one I am not positive about but have exchanged several emails. I have never spoken to Scott Chaffee. At least I dont remember speaking to him. I might have spoken to him about the Rocko/Pepsi litter. I did not want to omit his name given his accomplishments.

Here are all the people I mentioned.

Jim Tande  I have known Jim for 20 years. Trained, Trialed, and judged with him on numerous occasions. Steve Grossman - started the Minnesota Bird Hunters with Steve 17 years ago and have known him about 25 years. Have judged with Steve and trained with him many times and have trialed on his grounds several times. Bill Holtan, have known him for 20+ years. I have stayed at his home and he has stayed here on several occasions. Travis Gellhaus  trained with Travis at his camp in Canada and many other places. He has stayed at our kennel when he travels through the area and we sold him Thunderbird Punch Buggy who has several Championship placements, including R/U at the Wisconsin Cover Dog Championship. Vance Butler  have trialed on several occasions with Vance and shared a few meals. Robert Ecker  Have trialed with Robert on several occasions and shared a few dinners with him after the days running. Frank Lanasa  Known Frank about 15 years. We have served together on the board of the MN Federation of Field Trial Clubs and I bred to his dog Houstons Blackjack twice. Jerry Kolter  Trained, trialed, and spoke bird dogs with Jerry on many occasions. Lance Bressler  Trialed with Lance on several occasions and bred to his dog CH Hunters Billy Ray who was sold to Japan. Lloyd Murray  Have spoken with lloyd on the phone on several occasions. Bruce Minard  Trialed with Bruce just3 or 4 times that I remember and spoke to him on the phone 3 or 4 times. Dave Hughes  talked with Dave on the phone a few times about stud dogs and sent a female to his kennel to be bred to Bens Great Day before Tim Tufts acquired him. Chuck Wingaard  Trained and trialed with Chuck on Many occasions. Kelly Fogg  Spoke with her on 3 occasions. Once about breeding to her dog True Patriot. She informed me he was sterile. Once after she judged a CH in the NE to get her opinion of Stone Tavern Matrix who was still a derby at the time and just coming onto the scene. Kelly recommended him and told me she had already bred to him. The 3rd time was so long ago I dont remember what we talked about. Jay Johnson  Only met the man once and I think we talked on the phone a couple times but I could not say for sure. Dave Medema  I know we have shared email and I am think we have spoke on the phone but I would not bet on it. 

Making slanderous remarks when you have the facts is distasteful. A willingness to make them without regard to accuracy is a true testament of character. 

SRB


----------



## Bobby

Ben Berg said:


> Lucky Dog I'm wondering if you might really be Conrad Dobler from the old Miller lite commercials


Interesting. You remember Dobler from beer ads. I recall the football player.

He was a pro bowl lineman for St Louis and a couple other teams. He was called one of the dirtiest players in football.


----------



## Merimac

kek25 said:


> I've tried, Harry. But this is what happens. :lol: Click on the writing at the top of the frame and the video will play.
> 
> 
> DSCN8605.mp4 video by kek25 - Photobucket
> 
> Did get this during a woodcock hunt last season. The grouse would never hang around with all of that chatter. We walked about 140 yards before I turned the video camera on.
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - SANY0028
> 
> 
> 
> Gonna make it a goal to get a grouse video or 2 this year. Just coudn't bring myself to try it last year and risk messing up a shot opportunity to kill one.


This video was like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. You think you know the ending but really, did everyone make it out alive? So being the director can you give me a little insight? Did Mr. Doodle win or what?:chillin: I wanted the popcorn Emoticon!


----------



## kek25

Merimac said:


> This video was like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. You think you know the ending but really, did everyone make it out alive? So being the director can you give me a little insight? Did Mr. Doodle win or what?:chillin: I wanted the popcorn Emoticon!


Mr. Doodle won that time. I was having some fun with our young hunting partner. He's a great guy and rarely misses a shot. Here's one at the end of that 3 hour hunt where he didn't miss. We were almost back at the trucks at this point and this bird completed our 3 man limit that day. Roy came from the upwind side and crowded the bird. It almost took his head off, and it was too much pressure for him. He broke on the flush, which I started letting him do during the season last year because all of our other hunting dogs break on the flush and it was wearing on Roy's nerves and confidence. The other dogs were retrieving his birds and I could tell it was wearing on him.


----------



## slammer

Talking bird dogs is much like politics.... Lots of nice people, difficult to give your trust and for the most part we all share the same goal but have different ways of getting there.
Time to shut this sucka down.


----------



## WestCoastHunter

slammer said:


> Talking bird dogs is much like politics.... Lots of nice people, difficult to give your trust and for the most part we all share the same goal but have different ways of getting there.
> Time to shut this sucka down.


Post of the year right there.


----------



## Firemedic

I trust a few dog trainers, I trust NO politician.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bobby

slammer said:


> .........politics.... ........*we all share the same goal *but have different ways of getting there.
> .....


That statement would trigger another 380 plus posts. :evilsmile


----------



## setterguy

I think it would be shame to loose Scott Berg's contributions to this forum. I have found his posts to interesting and insightful. I am new to this site,but I am some what reluctant to make a post.I do not want to be ridiculed or insulted.


----------



## R. Ford

setterguy said:


> I think it would be shame to loose Scott Berg's contributions to this forum. I have found his posts to interesting and insightful. I am new to this site,but I am some what reluctant to make a post.I do not want to be ridiculed or insulted.


 
Setterguy,
Maybe not at first, but after awhile, ridicule and insults are taken in stride. The stronger position you take, expect others to take an equally strong position. 
SRB takes some very strong positions regularly, apparently Fritz & IWB were up to the task of defending their positions in an entertaining way for the rest of us. I personally enjoy the 'debate' topics the best. They bring different viewpoints to mind, and give me something to think about. I too, hope SRB doesn't stop contributing. 
On a side note, as the current director of the Indiana chapter of 'Who do Voodoo, You do Voodoo", I strongly suggest Fritz refrain from any more derogatory remarks concerning SRB's involvement with voodoo. I already have a mini-Fritz doll done, and I am currently working on a duck dog mini. :evilsmile


----------



## dauber

R. Ford said:


> On a side note, as the current director of the Indiana chapter of 'Who do Voodoo, You do Voodoo", I strongly suggest Fritz refrain from any more derogatory remarks concerning SRB's involvement with voodoo. I already have a mini-Fritz doll done, and I am currently working on a duck dog mini. :evilsmile


 
R.Ford, As a Voodo messiha you should know that concrete dogs are imune to your needles, and those of us who enjoy watching concrete dry are imune to all but Marie Laveau's spell. :evil: 

I too enjoy the intense debate. No reason for anyone to quit.


----------



## Steelheadfred

R. Ford said:


> Setterguy,
> Maybe not at first, but after awhile, ridicule and insults are taken in stride. The stronger position you take, expect others to take an equally strong position.
> SRB takes some very strong positions regularly, apparently Fritz & IWB were up to the task of defending their positions in an entertaining way for the rest of us. I personally enjoy the 'debate' topics the best. They bring different viewpoints to mind, and give me something to think about. I too, hope SRB doesn't stop contributing.
> On a side note, as the current director of the Indiana chapter of 'Who do Voodoo, You do Voodoo", I strongly suggest Fritz refrain from any more derogatory remarks concerning SRB's involvement with voodoo. I already have a mini-Fritz doll done, and I am currently working on a duck dog mini. :evilsmile


 
Well said Ralph! Humor and all! I have expressed many times that we are lucky that Scott Berg is willing to post.


----------



## Ronnem

20 yd beagle 

30-40 yd lab

100 yd setter


----------



## Ben Berg

I am very private person and would not typically share feelings on a forum such as this. But I earn my living from operating Berg Bros Setters.I find nothing humorus or entertaining about unfounded vicious attacks that could ill affect my earning ability.It would seem reasonable to believe that anyone on this forum would feel the same way if someone was trying affect their job or buisness. Tell me where is humor or entertainment in that. Thankyou for allowing me to air my view.

Ben Berg


----------



## Ronnem

Ben Berg said:


> I am very private person and would not typically share feelings on a forum such as this. But I earn my living from operating Berg Bros Setters.I find nothing humorus or entertaining about unfounded vicious attacks that could ill affect my earning ability.It would seem reasonable to believe that anyone on this forum would feel the same way if someone was trying affect their job or buisness. Tell me where is humor or entertainment in that. Thankyou for allowing me air my view.
> 
> Ben Berg


Are you talking to me, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about, this was my first post on this thread. Not sure how I pissed you off. Oh well, I'm out of here again.


----------



## kek25

Ben: I don't know how much you participate on these internet forums, but this is an age-old battle between those that fancy closer working dogs and those that fancy bigger ranging dogs. Yes, this issue always tends to get heated up because of the passion each side has for its respective point(s) of view. 

Among those that participate on these boards, Berg Brother's Setters' reputation precedes itself. I don't think you have anything to worry about in terms of an adverse effect on your business from these types of discussions. Just keep up the good work endeavoring to improve the English Setter breed and your "product" will speak for itself.

Look forward to your continued participation.


----------



## k9wernet

Ronnem said:


> Are you talking to me, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about, this was my first post on this thread. Not sure how I pissed you off. Oh well, I'm out of here again.


Read the thread man, you'll figure out what he's talking about on page two maybe, and paged 3-26 will really drive the point home.

If you really think he was offended by your post, I'd suggest you switch to decaf. You seem a little touchy.

KW


----------



## WestCoastHunter

This is not a field trial club. People have different opinions on what makes a good hunting dog here. This is not a place to expect everyone to sit down and listen intently and agree with everything said.

(It would be really boring if it was)

I don't think the quality of Berg Brother's setters was ever in question at any time from what I've read of this thread.


----------



## Ronnem

k9wernet said:


> Read the thread man, you'll figure out what he's talking about on page two maybe, and paged 3-26 will really drive the point home.
> 
> If you really think he was offended by your post, I'd suggest you switch to decaf. You seem a little touchy.
> 
> KW


I scrolled up and there was nothing on the page I was on, once I went back and started over and realized the thread changed from the original question, I got what was going on? My bad. LOL 
Ron


----------



## fishinlk

I don't think the problem is the debate between dogs and styles but more so Fritz's blatant attack on Scott's statments about top tier trainers that he's spoken to and worked with as well as the remarks questioning his knowledge of grouse dogs just because he didn't have pictures of dogs in the woods on the site. I know if I were in Scott or Ben's place that's where I'd be drawing the line between good pointed debate and unfounded B.S

This was one of the better threads we'd had about dogs on here right up until it hit that point and to a lessor degree with IWB taking the PM public. The latter was annoying but not nearly as rude or slanderous as Fritz's statements. We all get fired up about our dogs but there's a line. 

You know what they say. "You can talk about my wife but you better not say ANYTHING bad about my dog!" :lol:


----------



## Steelheadfred

fishinlk said:


> I don't think the problem is the debate between dogs and styles but more so Fritz's blatant attack on Scott's statments about top tier trainers that he's spoken to and worked with as well as the remarks questioning his knowledge of grouse dogs just because he didn't have pictures of dogs in the woods on the site. I know if I were in Scott or Ben's place that's where I'd be drawing the line between good pointed debate and unfounded B.S
> 
> This was one of the better threads we'd had about dogs on here right up until it hit that point and to a lessor degree with IWB taking the PM public. The latter was annoying but not nearly as rude or slanderous as Fritz's statements. We all get fired up about our dogs but there's a line.
> 
> You know what they say. "You can talk about my wife but you better not say ANYTHING bad about my dog!" :lol:


Wait just a minute, I never said anything slanderous, I said that unlike Scott Berg I did not wan't to speak for others, or pull others into a thread that they may or may not wan't to be a part of. I spoke from my personal experience and I was calling Scott Berg to the table to do the same rather than use others. Those folks may or may not have wanted to be alligned with either side of the debate, and I did not feel it was fair to them.

I also know for a Fact that one of the people Scott Berg listed in his side of the debate had never had any contact with Mr. Berg.

As far as the comment about his website, it is true, Berg Brother Kennels does not have a single photo of a dog in grouse cover, around grouse cover, or with a grouse. 

Thanks.


----------



## Ronnem

I have read most of what is going here and I have a question. 

*Again, this is a question*.
The grouse doesn't have anything to do with how long it will allow a dog to point it?

Again this is a question, I am not pissed trying to start a fight just trying to ask a question. If I knew how to start a poll I would. Something like. 

"What percentage of how long a point can be held is up to the bird?"


----------



## Firemedic

Ronnem said:


> I have read most of what is going here and I have a question.
> 
> *Again, this is a question*.
> The grouse doesn't have anything to do with how long it will allow a dog to point it?
> 
> Again this is a question, I am not pissed trying to start a fight just trying to ask a question. If I knew how to start a poll I would. Something like.
> 
> "What percentage of how long a point can be held is up to the bird?"


Too many variables to answer that question. Time of year, cover the bird is pointed in, wind speed/noise, time of day, pressure experienced, etc. The list goes on.


----------



## Ronnem

Firemedic said:


> Too many variables to answer that question. Time of year, cover the bird is pointed in, wind speed/noise, time of day, pressure experienced, etc. The list goes on.


My question was what percentage is based on the bird, most are only addressing dog issues. You can have the steadiest of dogs, if the birds are jumpy, they will be gone.

But I don't see alot of 200 yard dog owners talking about bird issues. I would be led to believe that the pro 200 yard dogs can hold any grouse for any amount of time. Maybe in their state early season. I would Love to see that in December in Michigan.

The bird holds a huge percentage of how long it can be pointed, more than has been stated to this point in the debate.


----------



## Ronnem

So in a perfect world, on juvenile birds, early season, covering the most ground might be the most productive. 

Season runs till Jan 1 though, what do you do once the leaves come down and birds flush at car doors being slammed?


----------



## Firemedic

Ronnem said:


> what do you do once the leaves come down and birds flush at car doors being slammed?


I still kill as many, if not more than when there were leaves on the trees. I for one, don't slam my doors.:lol: But, I have never had a grouse flush from the slamming of a car door. Pheasant? Absolutely!


----------



## Ronnem

Firemedic said:


> I still kill as many, if not more than when there were leaves on the trees. I for one, don't slam my doors.:lol: But, I have never had a grouse flush from the slamming of a car door. Pheasant? Absolutely!


So what percentage would you say??


----------



## fishinlk

> Well unlike Mr. Berg (who drops names of folks he has never spoken with) I don't want to speak for Dan Ross, or Bruce.


 Based on the the comment above, I read it as you were making that as a blanket statement about the list of trainers that he mentioned. I'm sure that others did also. If you had someone that he sited and you knew otherwise you could have called one in specifically. As far as the pics, you don't need to try to sugar coat it. The statement above combined with the way worded your comments about the lack of coverdog pics on their site was quite CLEARLY trying to discredit his knowledge for the grousewoods. 

Most of us that really have decent understanding about dog breeders and their reputations will take most of this in stride. The newbie or casual person who is looking to purchase a setter and is trying to look into a breeders credibility may not take it that way. 

Just stating my reasoning. 


As far as how the questions on long a grouse holds would be a very interesting topic! I know I had a lot of questions about that myself before I made my jump from GSP's to my new young setter. I will say my youngster has pointed and held more grouse in her first fall of training than my 3 GSP's did in any single year combined, And she had fewer opportunities. Great woodcock and pheasant dogs, just couldn't get it done on grouse.


----------



## Steelheadfred

fishinlk said:


> Based on the the comment above, I read it as you were making that as a blanket statement about the list of trainers that he mentioned. I'm sure that others did also. If you had someone that he sited and you knew otherwise you could have called one in specifically. As far as the pics, you don't need to try to sugar coat it. The statement above combined with the way worded your comments about the lack of coverdog pics on their site was quite CLEARLY trying to discredit his knowledge for the grousewoods.
> 
> Most of us that really have decent understanding about dog breeders and their reputations will take most of this in stride. The newbie or casual person who is looking to purchase a setter and is trying to look into a breeders credibility may not take it that way.
> 
> Just stating my reasoning.


Did Mr. Berg not make a blanket responce? It could be taken the opposite way you wrote it, that all the folks Mr. Berg mentioned were squarely in his camp. A newbie goes to his site, reads this guy is a grouse dog expert (I never said he was not) and see's not a single picture of grouse anything. 

That was my point of contention.


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## joker1234

Who cares to each his own on the range of the dogs. :evilsmile However 75 to 150 yards works for me.


----------



## crosswind

[FISHINLK]
As far as how the questions on long a grouse holds would be a very interesting topic! I know I had a lot of questions about that myself before I made my jump from GSP's to my new young setter. I will say my youngster has pointed and held more grouse in her first fall of training that my 3 GSP's did in any single year combined, And she had fewer opportunities. Great woodcock and pheasant dogs, just couldn't get it done on grouse.[/QUOTE]

Lance not intending to pick on you and kinda unrelated to this topic. The idea of one breed being the best or even better for use on grouse or phes,quail or whatever is just nonsense. If your setter is better on grouse he is just as apt to be better on the other species also.Bottom line he is probably just a better bird dog then your GSP's. It has everything to do with the individual dog and little to do with the breed. A good one is just that a good one. Every time I go wild bird hunting I usually have at least three different breeds with me. The good ones will out shine the others on whatever bird you put them on, ALMOST always.If that young setter is pointing and holding more grouse then the other three combined spend the time with that prospect, cause he sounds like a great one. Or get you a better GSP.LOL:lol: Good luck with the pup.


----------



## Ronnem

crosswind said:


> [FISHINLK]
> As far as how the questions on long a grouse holds would be a very interesting topic! I know I had a lot of questions about that myself before I made my jump from GSP's to my new young setter. I will say my youngster has pointed and held more grouse in her first fall of training that my 3 GSP's did in any single year combined, And she had fewer opportunities. Great woodcock and pheasant dogs, just couldn't get it done on grouse.


Lance not intending to pick on you and kinda unrelated to this topic. The idea of one breed being the best or even better for use on grouse or phes,quail or whatever is just nonsense. If your setter is better on grouse he is just as apt to be better on the other species also.Bottom line he is probably just a better bird dog then your GSP's. It has everything to do with the individual dog and little to do with the breed. A good one is just that a good one. Every time I go wild bird hunting I usually have at least three different breeds with me. The good ones will out shine the others on whatever bird you put them on, ALMOST always.If that young setter is pointing and holding more grouse then the other three combined spend the time with that prospect, cause he sounds like a great one. Or get you a better GSP.LOL:lol: Good luck with the pup.[/QUOTE]

A great topic would be, the brain function involved in processing information from the Olfactory glands. Not every dog in every breed can process information the same. Just like the olfactory gland, sensitivity is different in different breeds. Hounds are always the bench mark by science standards. Go figure


----------



## FindTheBird

Ronnem said:


> So in a perfect world, on juvenile birds, early season, covering the most ground might be the most productive.
> 
> Season runs till Jan 1 though, what do you do once the leaves come down and birds flush at car doors being slammed?


[_speaking of pointing dogs only_]
Interesting observation, and I see your point, but in my thinking, it's somewhat the opposite and I think that the density of birds might be a bigger question that their flightiness. In the early season when you have good numbers of young, dumb, un-hunted birds, a shorter dog with limited steadiness (the conditions don't require a broke dog who can hold point for 10 minutes if he's always within 50 yards) will do great. 
On the other hand, when the birds begin to thin-out (and group-up in many cases) I think the conditions might favor a little bigger runner. The exception may be for those who target their covers like a lazer and can lead their shorter running dogs directly to the birds. Obviously, the caveat with a bigger running dog under any conditions is that they have to do an exceptional job in their bird handling. 

Just an opinion, so please don't rough me up too much :lol:! 
What do you guys think?


----------



## kek25

FindTheBird said:


> [_speaking of pointing dogs only_]
> Interesting observation, and I see your point, but in my thinking, it's somewhat the opposite and I think that the density of birds might be a bigger question that their flightiness. In the early season when you have good numbers of young, dumb, un-hunted birds, a shorter dog with limited steadiness (the conditions don't require a broke dog who can hold point for 10 minutes if he's always within 50 yards) will do great.
> On the other hand, when the birds begin to thin-out (and group-up in many cases) I think the conditions might favor a little bigger runner. The exception may be for those who target their covers like a lazer and can lead their shorter running dogs directly to the birds. Obviously, the caveat with a bigger running dog under any conditions is that they have to do an exceptional job in their bird handling.
> 
> Just an opinion, so please don't rough me up too much :lol:!
> What do you guys think?


I think because you used the word "caveat" Grush is going to jump all over you like white on rice. :lol:


----------



## sgc

How does one pointing dog hold a bird better than another? (just curious) - Is it by not crowding it? I'm not talking about finding birds, but I'm trying to understand how it works where the dog holds the bird, from not running or flushing, better than another dog!


----------



## Scott Berg

sgc said:


> How does one pointing dog hold a bird better than another? (just curious) - Is it by not crowding it? I'm not talking about finding birds, but I'm trying to understand how it works where the dog holds the bird, from not running or flushing, better than another dog!


Now that is a very good question. There are lots of folks here who can do a good job answering it for you.

SRB


----------



## 2ESRGR8

Scott Berg said:


> Now that is a very good question. There are lots of folks here who can do a good job answering it for you.
> 
> SRB


Actually I don't think anyone can answer that.
But Backwoods said it back on page four or so, some dogs are turds, they can't all be great.


----------



## fishinlk

I guess I could have added a little clarity to my statement, it wasn't meant to put GSP's in a bad light, I loved my GSP's. The decision process and time holding birds actually revolved around the whole range issue in my decision making process. 

My gsp's could point grouse but couldn't hold them for any period of time.(about 6-10 of my steps) They didn't creep, steady dogs and the two younger ones actually had what I considered very good noses and had no problem getting points at out to 30' on game. I was actually hoping to try to crack the coverdog game with a gsp at the time but there always seemed to be a big disconnect on the length of time that a grouse would hold under point for what I was seeing. Comparing that to the expectations of the coverdog trials and that the dogs ran at those ranges and that bird would still be "stuck" when the handler got there was quite surprising. The only gsp breeders I could find that really stood behind their dogs as grouse dogs were guys that were breeding the larger slower dogs, which is not what I wanted. Because they were also slower, closer dogs, I was not convinced that they would be a much better. So based on all that I decided a few years ago to try another breed. 

Hope that paints a better picture to my thought process regarding holding birds/range, and how breed came into the discussion. I still really like a good gsp and may even get another one someday.


----------



## kek25

sgc said:


> How does one pointing dog hold a bird better than another? (just curious) - Is it by not crowding it? I'm not talking about finding birds, but I'm trying to understand how it works where the dog holds the bird, from not running or flushing, better than another dog!


First they bust them; then they become super careful to the point that they freeze on first scent -- you can see the fear in the dogs' eyes when they're at this point in their development -- fear that if they move the bird will fly; and if they have it in them they will learn to distinguish hot from cold scent and to push the bird just enough until the bird feels like it should stay put because to show itself = get eaten. Many pointing dogs don't go through this evolution and, therefore, don't become good grouse dogs. They just don't have it in them.

When I watch my older dog work a grouse there is pure confidence and concentration in his application. No second thoughts at all, unlike earlier in his development.


----------



## Ronnem

kek25 said:


> First they bust them; then they become super careful to the point that they freeze on first scent -- you can see the fear in the dogs' eyes when they're at this point in their development -- fear that if they move the bird will fly; and if they have it in them they will learn to distinguish hot from cold scent and to push the bird just enough until the bird feels like it should stay put because to show itself = get eaten. Many pointing dogs don't go through this evolution and, therefore, don't become good grouse dogs. They just don't have it in them.


awesome response

on a foot note some dogs will learn this very fast and perfect it very young, others may take longer to pick up on it but may become masters at the art, and then as Bruce said on page whatever, some will never learn and are (I like the term) "turds"


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## k9wernet

sgc said:


> How does one pointing dog hold a bird better than another? (just curious) - Is it by not crowding it? I'm not talking about finding birds, but I'm trying to understand how it works where the dog holds the bird, from not running or flushing, better than another dog!


Experience. In my opinion, it's primarily experience and yeah, maybe a little luck.

A ruffed grouse's (and many other species') first instinct when threatened is to go stone solid and wait for danger to walk right by. When threatened more directly, they react with a fight or flight defense.

The trick for a pointing breed is to find that balance. If the dog doesn't apply enough pressure, the first defense mechanism (hunkering/hiding) isn't triggered. Instead, that bird wanders out from under point. Too much pressure, and the second mechanism is triggered -- the bird blows up out of the cover before the gun gets there.

I've seen lots of December birds hunker down in front of a 100+ yard point and wait around for the gun to arrive. There are a lot of variables which will effect a bird's behavior including things like weather, cover, previous hunting pressure, etc; but you're fooling yourself if you think every pointing dog is the same. How, when and where, the dog points that bird is a HUGE part of the process, and perhaps the biggest factor in whether you put a bird in the bag when you're hunting over big running dogs.

Gentlemen, my skin is thick. Rip away! :lol:

KW


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## Ronnem

k9wernet said:


> Experience. In my opinion, it's primarily experience and yeah, maybe a little luck.
> 
> A ruffed grouse's (and many other species') first instinct when threatened is to go stone solid and wait for danger to walk right by. When threatened more directly, they react with a fight or flight defense.
> 
> The trick for a pointing breed is to find that balance. If the dog doesn't apply enough pressure, the first defense mechanism (hunkering/hiding) isn't triggered. Instead, that bird wanders out from under point. Too much pressure, and the second mechanism is triggered -- the bird blows up out of the cover before the gun gets there.
> 
> I've seen lots of December birds hunker down in front of a 100+ yard point and wait around for the gun to arrive. There are a lot of variables which will effect a bird's behavior including things like weather, cover, previous hunting pressure, etc; but you're fooling yourself if you think every pointing dog is the same. How, when and where, the dog points that bird is a HUGE part of the process, and perhaps the biggest factor in whether you put a bird in the bag when you're hunting over big running dogs.
> 
> Gentlemen, my skin is thick. Rip away! :lol:
> 
> KW


There should be no need to have thick skin or get ripped on for this response.

Ron


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## tailcrackin

SGC, its is alot about brains, having the sense to do things properly....naturally......... or properly, by being helped to learn on things.
Scott Berg, why couldnt you answer that question correctly? Thanks Jonesy


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## k9wernet

tailcrackin said:


> Scott Berg, why couldnt you answer that question correctly? Thanks Jonesy


I think he's tired of being ripped on for stating an opinion. Hopefully it's not a permanent thing.

KW


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## kek25

I'd rather have my opinions ripped on than have them ignored all together.


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## Ben Berg

I think He might be looking for a picture of a Ruffed Grouse so He will have the credentials. It also might be that He is a man of integrety and meant what he said.


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