# Wifes gun



## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

measure penetration in water filled bottles? Waters a hard medium to shoot at. Now if you had some ballistic gelatin and can measure the impact-distance that might be a better indicator.

Personally Id have no problem carrying that gun with a load of hydra-shocks from Federal. If not a 125 jsp or jhp should do the job.

Theres a gazillion loads for the 38spl/+P and +P+ loads. surely something will work. Rich


----------



## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

Well lets see now...ya take about a dozen and a half of empty milk jugs. Fill them w/water. Then set them down in a line facing you. Load your gun and shoot at them. The bullet penetrates the jugs and hits resistance in the water. Then ya just measure the distance and recover the bullet. 
You can also do this w/wet news papers or wet old telephone books. Another friend of mine in Texas does this to "experiment" on expansion and penetration on various self defense bullets. He uses an old file cabinet also. takes the front off of the drawer and places the wet newspapers/phone books in it. He then shoots a round in. The round penetrates so far and then he just measures the distance and recovers the bullet for expansion and weight retention. I'll see if he still has his reports, if ya want. You might be surprised at the results.
As a matter of fact, the FBI crime lab uses the "water tank" method for bullets.
For some info on bullet performance, check out ammolab.com and http://stevespages.com/page8f.htm


----------



## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

Water isnt a good test medium nor is the telephone book. Sure the bullet will expand but if you want true results a medium like ballistic gel or an animal shoulder/ meat will give more precise readings of what a bullet would do in human tissue [dont have any spare cadavers].

I take it the file cabinet is like us using windshields for penetration? That I can accept. However if your shooting through barriers Id use an FMJ bullet [used to have a bunch of old Win 38spl and 357 Armor piercing shells but we blasted them all off. Oh and there was the time at the drive in we shot a beer keg with a 25 auto fmj [no penetration] a 9mm [dent] and a 357 [finally were getting somewhere] and a 44 mag [yeah theres some power].........

However, I have used some of the exotic stuff too the thunderzaps, and others.

And finally, the police/FBI use the water catch and the Savage Snails to catch the bullet to be anylized for ballistics match [rifling/etc] Rich 

PS have you ever read Evan Marshall and Ed Sanows books? Real life shootings and results. Id highly recommend them.


----------



## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Dodge, I understand what your saying about the penetration issue. I'm single, no kids, so in my home environment, collateral damage is not an issue. On the street it certainly is, but I tend to think in that situation, collateral damage is always an issue with any caliber weapon. Thats all part of the responsibility of carrying I guess and it sounds like you understand that as well as anybody. It sounds like whatever you decide on, it will be the right decision for you and your needs.

Bic Nic, thanks for the kind words! I can say the same thing of your posts! I know a few guys that carry fullsize 1911's but it sure doesn't sound like fun to me! I also know of a guy that carries a S&W .500...the 8" version no less! he handles repo duty and the gun has seen use!

For penetration testing, especially for defense loads, try some #10 cans of diced tomatoes or stewed tomatoes. Set it up just like the 1 gallon water jugs. The cans themselves are pretty soft and the contents are packed tightly enough that they give a pretty good representation of what expansion and penetration might be in the real world of heavy jackets and ribs etc. I've done it a few times, but nothing extensive. I'm thinking of doing something similar this summer though. If nothing else, it's pretty darn cool to blow up cans filled with tomatoes! I see a buckshot test in the future as well! Buy these by the case (6/10's) at a GFS or Sams to get a price break. 

We need to have a centrally located meet n' greet this summer to burn some ammo and destroy targets I think. We have quit a few shooting enthusiasts on this site now!


----------



## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

Gravel pit off Roods lk road. Its where they have machine gun shoots and you can pretty much blow up anything you like out there. If its been attempted its been attempted there. Steel/wood/food products, deer shoulders, animal parts you name it. I was there yesterday and someone dumped off a love seat......lovely accomdations until someone levels the 12 ga at it. Theres clean up crews that burn the trash there regularly.

I do some lead reclaimation there in Spring for my reloading [cast bullets] Just have to be a weekend I dont have a gun show Iam setting up at, but Iam in to blow off some ammo. All in the name of science you understand! Rich


----------



## Bwana (Sep 28, 2004)

I carry a Sig P239 in .40 S&W. I would consider it especially since you are use to Sig Sauer characteristics already. It is well balanced and heavy enough to avoid excessive muzzle flip when fired. I am considering purchasing a .40 KAHR for carry purposes.


----------



## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

Huntsman:
No, water or phone books isn't the best medium to use but its basicly all that we have. The geletin is too expensive to get. Heck, even some gun writers use the old phone book trick (M. Assob [sp?] does).
The thought of using cadavers....well, I can imagine how many human rights organizations would jump on that like white on rice.  
The file cabinet is used to hold the phone books/wet news paper in a straight line. The front of the drawer is removed but I guess you could keep it on. The whole idea is not the thought of shooting through barriers because if you were to use your gun in self defense, more than likely you are not gonna be shooting through a barrier...accept maybe a window as in a car jacking.
Those books you mentioned have been debated numerous times on another forum I belong to. 
Regarding the full size 1911, Swamp, I do carry one when I'm outside of work. Its not as bad as ya think. Can't carry during work because weapons are not permited in jails and courts. 
Speaking of penetration of bullets, ever see what a 12 gauge slug does to an empty propane tank? Hardly anything!!! Kinda makes ya second think about a slug!!


----------



## dodge7 (Jan 18, 2005)

Try the oats, corn-meal, and flower, water can be added to the last two to increase density, bought at bulk-foods store realitively cheap too.
Yeah you can't un-ring a bell, thats why over-penetration was always a concern of mine. 
Very seldom miss a gun show, (I still remember the Goodman shows), For the last year or so, have been paying more attention to people at the shows, and the types of guns being looked at and purchased. Seen one fella, buy an assault type rifle, walk down the aisle, bought ammo, (500rds), the sad , no scarey part was, he had to show vendor gun in order to identify cal, said something like I need bullits for this (DOG). He honestly had no idea of the caliber. To me that was scarey, this idiot lives next door to somebody.
Love to shoot magnums, and 45s, (both auto and long), but would be really hesitant to carry one.(the cant unring a bell thing)


----------



## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

Dodge:
Why would ya be hesitant in carrying a .45acp?
Just wondering.


----------



## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

I see a lot of at that gravel pit is ventilated propane tanks. Im not sure if you mean they are a good test medium for a deer cartridge though? Maybe the soft lead ones wouldnt be a good tank buster.........more along the lines of the Winchester partition gold jobs? I have a friend who casts the Lyman 12 ga slugs [look like 177 pellets] if they are soft, they deform easy, if they are cast from linotype lead, man are they tough. Nice to flip them upside down and load the hollow skirt up so you have the ultimate hollow point. You can HEAR that slug whistle down range! when it smacks something it really hits with some authority.


----------



## dodge7 (Jan 18, 2005)

IN MY OPINION. and again its only my opinion, A 45acp is over kill for a carry gun.


----------



## BarryPatch (Jul 21, 2004)

I gave my wife a SIG 230. It's much easier to shoot than my S&W Chief's Special Airweight - which I don't care for myself (inherited). I like that the 230 has no safteys to get in the way. Pic up and shoot. 

I carry a SIG 226 when possible but often can't carry a large or even mid-sized gun. I live in Chicago - Home of the un-free. The Beretta .32 I have is a nice little gun.


----------



## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

Huntsman:
Wasn't really talking about using a propane tank as a medium representing deer sized game, he just shot them for the heck of it. Was surprised by the lack of penetration of them. Think he was using the Winchester Super X slugs. 
Anyhow, regarding the whole penetration topic we've been chatting about, you do realize we're discussing about self defense bullets and not game type of bullets, right? Thought about that when you mentioned deer and bone in previous topics. 
Speaking of slugs Huntsman, do a search for Dixie Terminator slugs on the net. You should see these suckers!!!! :yikes: 

Dodge:
Not trying to get into a debate, but can ya elaborate on your opinion. I'm curious since I carry a 1911 .45acp. What do ya mean by "over kill"?


----------



## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

bullet concept. You want something that penetrates, expands and doesnt leave the intended victim? I loved the black talons myself. But after testing those vs the PMC starfires I went with those instead. That and the fact talons are considered collectors ammo anymore. Still like the HS Federals also. 

However, once while shooting pumpkins with HS feds in 45acp, we saw one bounce off a pumpkin fully expanded. That was an odd expirience. At the time it was the only test medium we had.


----------



## dodge7 (Jan 18, 2005)

First of all concealed..my SIG is a lot more concealable, and comfortable than any of my 45s (1911s). Secondly consider the enviroment, and principle target. A human body offers little resistance to a 45. Interior and exterior walls of single family dwellings,offer little resistance. A 45 will easily pass through a person and contienue traveling, although now it is on an unintended course. Enviroment..odds are it is going to be dark or dimly lit, your target will NOT be stationary, nor will it be offering a +10 mass reference point, you'll probly be a little disorientated, if not flat out scared. All of these factors will greatly influence your shooting accurancy. 
Thats why I personally prefer the smaller cal.....its more concealable, yet large enough to accomplish intent, while diminishing odds of collatteral or uninted damages.
Again this is just my personal feelings.


----------



## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

Huntsman:
Speaking of those Black Talons, the buddy of mine who lives in Texas, shot some into that phone book/wet newspaper experiment. The bullet broke apart!!! Hardly any expansion and penetration!! I've asked him to send me the pics from it and I'll pass them along to this forum. 
I personally use either Gold Dots or Golden Sabers in my handguns for self defense. 

Dodge:
Again, not trying to get into a major debate but a few things. 
1) Not all .45acp's are 1911's. For concealment, there are plenty of other options. My next .45acp (truck gun) is gonna be the Bersa. Perfect for concealment on person and also in a vehicle.
2) Any bullet can penetrate beyond a target. But modern technology has developed better bullets. Handgun bullets, HP's to be exact, are designed to expand and thus dispersing energy within the target. Yeah, you'll get penetration but gotta remember a target (body of an attacker) is gonna provide resistance. Look at the ballistics of a .45acp 230gr bullet. Compared to a .40 S&W, 9mm (+p), or .357Sig, its SLOW. 
3) If you are truely worried about the environment in your house, then get a shotgun, loaded w/either buckshot or birdshot. Skip the handgun then.


----------



## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

I used were 357 magnum. I used a deer shoulder as a test and some other meat products. The result was similar to your friends. I got few that expanded as they should. However, when I went to the Starfires, they expanded each time. I use them and would recommend them. My wife also uses those in her Beretta 380 along with the GS Rems.

Also, the one round I love to shoot woodchucks with [short range] is the 44 special 200gr Gold dot. Talk about expansion! man do those things work great! One other one I use a lot is the Hornady XTP bullets. Rich


----------



## dodge7 (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm assuming your refering to a 380 SIG (357SIG)
Your also comparing a 230gr bullet, to a 90gr bullet.
And true, a shot gun with bird shot, buckshot?, would be a choice, but the manuverability,and T.R.T., of this weapon makes impracticle.
Again only my opinion


----------



## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

Huntsman:
Man, those XTP's are great!! I use them for my .357Mag, 180gr for deer.

Dodge:
A .380 Sig? A .380 is different than a .357Sig. Competely different. That scares me that you don't the difference!!! 
Yup, I'm comparing a 230gr verses a 90gr bullet. 
" And true, a shot gun with bird shot, buckshot?, would be a choice, but the manuverability,and T.R.T., of this weapon makes impracticle."
Impracticle??? Ever look at a coach gun? Perfect for home defense. I have one next to the bed at home.


----------



## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

dodge7 said:


> I'm assuming your refering to a 380 SIG (357SIG)


Ok confused here....are you taking about a Sig in .380 cartridge or the gun model number 380 in .357 Sig cartridge? In your earlier posts I assumed you were talking about the .380 cartridge. If you were refering to the .357 Sig cartridge I understand. Those two cartridges are night and day different in terms of performance. And actually, depending on bullet, the .357 Sig will probably out penetrate a .45acp all day.


----------

