# Modern Timbering Practices Question



## Ogre (Mar 21, 2003)

The neighbor on the adjacent acreage had some timbering done. The guys that came to do the timbering had newer equipment for moving the logs but their methods weren't new. They cut down trees, cut the branches from the trunks, cut the logs into eight foot lengths, and other than the larger logs they left everything laying right where it was cut. It is my understanding that nothing in the woods is wasted any more and everything has value so I was truly amazed that so much was left on the ground. The property may have been thick before but it is now impassable. What also worries me is the effect that the mass of branches has for my property. I'm thinking about the types of grates that you see out west that keep the cattle from wondering on to the roads. The cattle can't maneuver through the grates as their four legs can't handle traversing the grating. The mass of branches left on the ground acts in the same way and in my mind effectively cuts off one side to my property. Even more important is the fact that the land owner clearly did not get his moneys worth nor did he provide for the wildlife. Branches that are piled would be good for rabbits but the matted condition that they now present just serve to trip and entangle and really won't enhance the wildlife. I believe there was more money left on the ground then was taken out in the value of the logs. Question for all: I know that we some professional foresters as members so to the professionals, and to all, what do you consider to be good and ethical timbering practices today? Are there different standards depending upon the acreage involved? In other words, would in cost more than it's worth to bring all of the biggest and best equipment for forty acres versus two thousand acres so that more ends up being wasted on forty acres then on the larger plots? The property in question was all cut by hand.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Ogre,

Your description sounds perfect for wildlife. The worst kinds of cuts for wildlife are those that DO NOT leave the tops and branches. The best areas for bedding on my property are those areas that are almost impossible for me to crawl through. Cut trees, hinge cuts...basically a jungled mess is great for wildlife. Sometimes, what a professional logger will want to do, and what someone managing for wildlife will do, may be very different things. For example, I know of one professional wildlife manager, Neil Dougherty from NY, that completed some management activities in the past year in which they took a large bulldozer and ran over the medium sized trees over several acres...basically, the thicker the better.

I have a property like that next to my house. The loggers left all the tops...which many do, and the part that was cut each of the last 2 winters is now 4-8' high in aspen and maple regeneration, and it's too thick to walk through because of tops and new growth across much of the parcel. But, even with that jungle, that's where a couple of fawns are living right now, there is continued browse on the tops, and it's hard to go around there without jumping bedded or browsing deer....kind of ugly now, but beautiful for deer and other wildlife.

I have a large timber cutting activity that may take place in the next year or so, and I will insist that the tops and debris stays..it's instant cover in an otherwise open woods.

The only reason you may want to have a beef with your neighbor is that they may actually have the ability to be holding more deer than you do in the near future.


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## bake (Jun 9, 2004)

In PA they always leave the tree tops and the critters just love it. The only thing the loggers take is the straight trunk part of the tree, the rest stays and rots. While this may look ugly(especially when it grows up in a few years) to the untrained eye as a deer and grouse hunter I droul over these areas. The nastier it is the more deer and grouse will use these areas. And don't worry, the animals get through these areas fine, much better than you or I would I can guarentee that, lol.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Ed Spinn once told me that when you cut enough trees that you can`t walk through it. That is the way the deer like it.

Neil Dougherty in his book _Grow `Em Right_ describes deer habitat as an impenetrable mess that you would be embarrassed to show someone.

Sounds as though your neighbor might have created some great deer habitat. It also sounds like what I am doing on some of my property.


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## answerguy8 (Oct 15, 2001)

Ogre,

While your neighbor may have a beef with the timbering contractor (if the neighbor didn't expect the tops to be left behind) you should be happy. 
Your neighbor now has a 40 acre deer sanctuary that no man (at least not many) will want to attempt to disturb. What kind of trees were removed?
If the answer is "mostly popples" you've really hit the jack pot. They will start re-generating thousands of whips and drawing in deer from all over. YOu might get 12,000 popple suckers per acre.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/components/3473-60.html

Gary


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## THETOOLMAN (Oct 23, 2003)

sounds like whitetail heaven. Next spring that place will grow up in briars & all kinds of tastey green stuff you just got a next door bedding area. FREE! talk about a spot for gobblers to feed! lucky you!!


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Had better than 800 trees felled on my farm in '03, and all the tops remained in the woods. Wouldn't want it any other way.

It did create a lot of work for me, since many of my stand locations had to move; sometimes the tops blocked an old runway, re-locating it, or, removed trees made my old stand locations too visible, and other reasons.

The tops will aid in regeneration of new growth. As for the tops themselves, they will eventually disintegrate, and some species crumble more quickly than others. My Ash, Silver Maple, Hickory, and Red Oak tops are already turning to mush.


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## Ogre (Mar 21, 2003)

I guess that I didn't make my point. Nothing, I mean NOTHING, can get through the mess. Leaving debris is one thing that I understand and approve of but what has been left is primarily an intertwined mess of cedar bows which will last for years. This was primarily a very very very thick cedar swamp area and most of it still remains on the ground. The branches will compress some what and possibly squirrels and mice can get around but I can see no possible way for deer to move in the mess. Looking over the property from my line I can obviously see clear spots where logging vehicles cleared their way in but other than that I honestly don't believe a deer could get through the mess. On the surface with some cleared logging paths one could assume that this could become an end point for the deer as it would almost be a safe harbor. The problem is that the cedar branches are so thick that I believe it will take decades before anything of substance will grow through the mats meaning this will not promote new growth and provide new food sources. We can agree to disagree about how much entanglement is good or bad for wildlife but let's say what was done was good for the deer. What good is it if the property is now unhuntable as you would kill yourself trying to walk? One thing I would still like to know is from a foresters perspective is there anything not of value today in the woods and is there a balance between what is left versus what is taken out: a balance between value of the material versus wildlife value?


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## shotgunner (Jan 15, 2003)

> One thing I would still like to know is from a foresters perspective is there anything not of value today in the woods and is there a balance between what is left versus what is taken out: a balance between value of the material versus wildlife value?


i hold no degree in forestry but do have a 25 years full time experience and am a 4'rth generation woodsman. without having a clear understanding of the stand of timber your neighbor had harvested, and to what degree, it is impossible to answer your question completely. you are correct that everything has value but varies in significance from wildly outrageous to not worth the fuel and effort expended for it. even then, if it was part of the contract or agreement it must be cleaned up.

my personal opinion is anything that will make a 9" [on the top] log should be utilised. sometimes smaller, basically in accordance with the property owners wishes or contract specifications.

i would guess the deer and other wildlife will be fine, some of the best heavy/dense deep cover is within old tornado "blo holes" masses of cedar, spuce and helmlock blowdowns that stretch forever. i can think of several places where its possible to travel well above ground level for a _long_ ways..... on the plus side, not many care to venture into these areas. if you have access to hunt there see if it would be o.k. to cut some paths into it for safe low light traveling.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

Ogre

In your area, pretty much everything could be used. Saw logs would go to a saw or veneer mill. Aspen is going to go to the old Abitibi plant in Alpena, GP in Gaylord, or Weyerhauser in Grayling. Any tops or trash wood can be chipped and sold to the power plant in Hillman. We have 1100 acres at our camp and have been cutting for the past 5 years or so. The first time we cut, we cut shortwood and left the tops in the woods. Our guys didn't like it so since then we have been cutting tree length, skidding to a landing, slashing to 102" and stacking the tops. Then I have another contractor take the tops. I figure we have sold over $ 10K worth of tops that would have been left to rot in the woods. You can do a lot of food plots and habitat improvement with that extra money. After they leave all you have to do is work up the landing they were skidding to and you have an instant food plot. I know leaving the tops may be better for habitat for a short time, but I'd rather have the extra money to put into food plots. After two years, the areas cut and without the tops are so thick and full of brambles, I don't see where you gain much by leaving the tops.
As far as how long it will take for the wood left behind on your neighbors to degrade. I think you will be surprised how fast it will rot away. More like years, not decades. Any time there is cutting near your property, it is generally a good thing.


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## brokenarrow (Oct 6, 2003)

Agre
We had a storm come thru in 92. Trust me, I have seen many horrible logging situations most from poorly done clear cuts but have seen many. There is nothing that has compared to the mess from a few tornado's bouncing off the top of the trees and then straight micro burst winds behind.
Infact a man who owns the land accrossed the street had a heart attack and died in the woods the next year (trying to hunt this mess) and yes, we all had a search party to find him. Twenty fella's along with dnr and sherrifs. The deer will traverse this stuff so gracefully and quite that you will just want to watch this event happen!
We used to drive this place (50 acres) of blow down. What a joke. 3/8 mile walk and your sweating up a storm in 10 degree weather while the larger bucks let you walk within feet of them as you pass and the dumber ones gracefully jump and frolic away.
I understand what you may be thinking looking at this mess. How can you even hunt it? You cant, for a few years anyway. I will say though that if you plan to go thru it make sure your not walking under any widowmakers (in the near future)
Enjoy this deer and grouse paradise. Yes the loggers may of not made it a park (for humans) but they surely made what many animals will call a home WITH a security system already in it.


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## lyndon43 (Jun 10, 2005)

Might be what our neighbors think.

Our timber cuts consist primarily of pulp wood. Our first priority is deer, not $$. Tops are left. Area that we harvest, we require it to be CLEAR CUT. If the tree does not make a pulp stick we still want it to hit the ground. Opened 100% to sunlight, and we get great aspen regeneration. 

Hard to walk through? You bet! Full of deer? yes!!
What we dont take, mother nature & the critters will make use of.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

I did and am doing the same thing to my property.

Select cut everything single tree that wasn't an oak.

Leveld the whole 80 acres.

You can not walk in the woods it is near impassible.

Deer walk through it and hardly make a sound.


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## answerguy8 (Oct 15, 2001)

Ogre,
I don't think you're going to believe any of us until this winter when you can look at the deer tracks going through your neighbor's new deer sanctuary.  

BUT... the work that was done over the fence line will change the pattern of the deer, whether that turns out good or bad for you remains to be seen.

Gary


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

It's just hard to imagine too many tops left from a cutting, afterall, there can only be so many in a give area. My neighbor had their cedar cut pretty hard and although I don't enjoy waling through it and it's really only possible through the various roads the loggers left, the deer still love it.

I see the type of thinking up here were landowners are concerned with the look of the tops. I know of several cuttings that the landowners insisted the tops be taken and I know of others that the tops were not taken and people assumed the logger did a terrible job. I've found a lot of people up here that want their woods to look like a park after a logging job and I've seen some timber that has been select-cut, the tops removed, and then the overstory just fills in after several years and the woods is as open as it ever was...but the landowner was happy...the wildlife weren't, even though the landowner didn't know that.

I've been to one professional wildlife manager's property that actually piled all their tops of a major logging operation along a couple hundred yards of a property border to keep deer going between the property when their neighbors wouldn't stop sitting on the fence line, but literally it took all their tops to build this "fence"..but it worked.

Ogre, I'm not saying you are wrong with your assessment, but it's just hard to picture that many tops that would constrict deer movement so much to be a detriment.....has anyone else ever seen this happen on a property?


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## ThumbBum (Oct 13, 2003)

I cant wait to refer my hunting buddies to this post
I had my first aspen clearcut done last winter and in accordance with everything I have read I had the logger leave the tops on the ground. 

(I have photos but cant figure out how to post them, I will e-mail then to anyone who asks. I am keeping a detailed photo journal of all my loggin efforts) 

I have since taken a ribbing from my firends about how I got ripped off and the logger should have ground up the tops as part of the contract. They dont believe that anything could traverse this area and tthat the tops will shade out any regrowth. I just throw my copy of "Grow em Right" at them and tell them that Ill be perfectly happy to keep this hunting area to myself if they feel it will never be productive.

I did spend some time in this area this spring creating some funnels though the cuts that will lead into future foodplots from the thick stuff. In the process we harvested 2 full cords of firewood and still left plenty on the ground. I will spray the stumps in these funnels with herbicide to keep them open. 

Cant waint to do it again next winter, the plan is a series of small 5-10acre clearcuts over the next several years.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

ThumbBum said:


> I cant wait to refer my hunting buddies to this post
> I had my first aspen clearcut done last winter and in accordance with everything I have read I had the logger leave the tops on the ground.
> 
> (I have photos but cant figure out how to post them, I will e-mail then to anyone who asks. I am keeping a detailed photo journal of all my loggin efforts)
> ...


I'd like to see the pictures - [email protected]  thanks

ferg....


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## Andy (May 20, 2004)

did anyone get a kick out of Robert McCoy jr. 's post? I laughed out loud at work! The thought of leveling 80 acres of forest, not counting oaks, and doing it specifically for wildlife....well, there's something oddly ammusing to me about that. Not that i don't agree with it, but that is serious habitat improvement work!  Must of taken a long time! I agree, deer love the thick and nasty!
andy


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

In winter of '97 I clearcut about 2a. of mature Bigtooth Aspen on a sandy ridge within a woodlot. We left every single tree intact on the forest floor(there is no market for the stuff in my area). Truly, when we were done, it was impossible to walk through. But the critters found a way.

I go through this area (it's now part of a 40a. sanctuary) about every other January now. The old trees and their branches have decayed, and thousands of saplings have taken things over. Yet, amidst this dense cover, if you look closely, you will find a network of winding, criss-crossing deer trails.


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## chuckinduck (May 28, 2003)

We have a hunting camp on Drummond Island and about 300 acres of the property was logged off back in the early 90's........when the loggers left, the timbered areas was largely unhuntable and still is, because its so thick and untraversable, since they were going after cedar, it doesn't break down very fast............we got poplar growth within the year, which holds deer until the cold, then they move into the cedars almost exclusively..........we are planning another timber cut of about 150 acres, but this time we are requesting that when its all said and done, a certain percentage of the cut must be cleared totally......so that plots can be planted......to go back into the old logged areas and pull stumps and clear it of the aspen, would be a huge overtaking........I'm not totally convinced logging is the answer to creating deer habitat, we used to shoot5-6 bucks a year before the logging, since then..........3 during gun season would be more average


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