# Spring Time - Chuck and Duck - Steelhead



## aimus1 (Feb 28, 2011)

Eaisiest is a palomar. Rig your junk with 3 knots instead of 4. Saves you from having to tie an extra knot.
Most guys end their leader with a micro swivel. Tippet extends off the other eye of that swivel down to your two bugs. Lets say you want your first bug 16" from the swivel and your dropper bug 16" below that. You'd wanna pull about 32" of tippet off your spool and marry it to the swivel with a fishermans knot. Knot the first bug on with a palomar half way down the tippett which will leave you a 16" tag end. Knot the dropper bug on the tag end with a fishermans.
Palomar is an easy knot to tie but give it plenty of spit and be careful not to burn your line cinching it down. Faster as you tie 3 knots total rather than 4.
Knot starts by threading the tippet through the eye of the bug then immediately back through the other direction leaving a loop sticking out one side of the eye. stick your finger through that loop and pull on the tag end until the tip of that tag end reaches back to your swivel. Tie that knot right there and your bug will be half way down your tippett. Tie on your second bug to the end of that tag with a fishermans knot. 
Super easy, Super fast.
I think you'll find that most chuck n duck guys use leaders about the lenght of their rod shaft ending at a micro swivel. They'll keep their weight on the leader above the swivel. Then they'll use a lighter weight tippet down to their bug, bugs or bag. This way the swivel and weight are not lost in the event of breaking off. Length of leader, 2 bugs and 3 knots and you're back in the water. Simple, fast and effective. Ethical?? ...to each their own. 







marn1186 said:


> And I mean the line to Tippet/leader knot.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## marn1186 (Dec 27, 2009)

Do you mind drawing up a quick sketch of what you are describing ? I think I got it but a pic would help. 


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## scooter_trasher (Sep 19, 2005)

Salmon'n'Steelhead Addict said:


> The chuck and duck method is very successful, but.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## RIVER LADY (Jun 13, 2005)

ausable_steelhead said:


> There's a certain way to drift waxworms that is flat out deadly. I'd tell ya, but the Au Sable guys would be pissed!


 
So would River Lady.


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## kwcharne (Jan 8, 2008)

ausable_steelhead said:


> There's a certain way to drift waxworms that is flat out deadly. I'd tell ya, but the Au Sable guys would be pissed!


 
I call bluff


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## peisertm (Mar 25, 2013)

before I learned to fly cast effectively I did a lot of chuck and duck, I use amnesia line with a barrel swivel and about 7-8 feet of 6# fluorocarbon leader. Use an egg attractor fly with something bead-headed below it about 2 feet.


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## peisertm (Mar 25, 2013)

double surgeons


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## aimus1 (Feb 28, 2011)

marn1186 said:


> Do you mind drawing up a quick sketch of what you are describing ? I think I got it but a pic would help.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
I drew a pic that you could reference on the fly tying forum. The thread title is proper leader/tippet lengths. That thread is currently on the first page. The pic however is for a floating line scenerio. So where the pic shows the marriage of the leader and tippet with a surgeons loop: you would instead use a swivel between your leader and tippet rather than the loop to loop marriage shown in the pic. Other than that it's the same.
The palomar knot im sure you can find on youtube. You just want to tie it so that you leave a much longer tag end. You tie your dropper bug on the end of that tag. 
As mentioned, A double surgeons knot would certainly work for the marriage of your leader to your tippet. However this knot will often cause you to loose your split shot in the event of a snag break off. If you use a swivel you will almost always retain your swivel and shot in the event of a snag break off. And tieing a new lenght of tippet on the swivel with a fishermans knot is faster and easier than tieing another double surgeons knot. I've always been a huge proponent of the easiest and fastest re-rig scenerio. Chuck n Duck is meant to bounce the bottom or what I like to call "Dredge the Ditch". If you're not loosing rigs then you're not finding bottom. And some would say if you're not finding bottom then you're not catching fish. Lots of bugs and lots of knots. But the palomar will save you one knot per re-rig and knots don't get any easier to tie than the palomar.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

marn1186 said:


> Do you mind drawing up a quick sketch of what you are describing ? I think I got it but a pic would help.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


http://www.animatedknots.com/


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## jbl (Mar 30, 2013)

I always use a 5_6 foot leader at tippy and im not trying to line fish. Whats wrong w a long leader? thats how I was taught and I hook fish legally.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

RobW said:


> C&D is particularly suited to our rivers. Those short, deep holes that you just can't get your offering down on the bottom any other way are fairly numerous around here. It's not my preferred way to fish, but then I don't always get my preferred holes. You have to be prepared for the opportunities you are presented with. As was already stated, use a shorter leader (I like about 24 inches for the first fly, then 18 for the dropper) to minimize flossing. Flossing generally refers to the practice of using a long leader and drifting it a couple inches from the bottom. The fish hold with their mouths open, and it's not too much coincidence when that long leader catches in a mouth, drags the fly to the corner of said mouth, and you've flossed a fish. I feel good about my drifts if I'm ticking bottom every 2-3 feet... I thread a snap swivel onto my main leader and use pencil lead for weight. Lots of ways to go about it.


How long have you been steelheading? I have fished for steelhead since the early 60's, before flyfishing took hold on our Michigan rivers. In all those years I have yet to see fish holding with their mouths open. In my experience the only time these fish will purposely open their mouths when in the stream for the spring spawning run is when they are actually dropping eggs, milt, or taking a bait, lure, or fly. I use chuck-n-duck techiques while the fish are on the gravel with much success. I use a leader of about 6 to 8 ft of Maxima green mono, 6 or 8 lb. test. I also use a slinky rig exclusively. None, and I mean NONE of the fish that I take from gravel have been lined, raked, flossed, or whatever other derogatory term you care to use. All of the steelhead that take my fly offering have actively taken the fly into their mouths in a feeding action or a defensive action. Fishing for active spawning fish is a perfectly legal method. Others may deem it unethical, but if it were that much of an ethics problem, the state would no doubt outlaw the practice like they did with deliberate snagging of salmon. 99% of the steelhead that I bring to net are released to fight another day. You can believe me or not, or call me a flosser, liner, gravel raker, or anything you like. As long as it is legal, this guy is going to keep fishing accordingly no matter if some other smart-ass kid agrees with my methods or not. Have a great spring.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

skipper34 said:


> How long have you been steelheading? I have fished for steelhead since the early 60's, before flyfishing took hold on our Michigan rivers. In all those years I have yet to see fish holding with their mouths open. In my experience the only time these fish will purposely open their mouths when in the stream for the spring spawning run is when they are actually dropping eggs, milt, or taking a bait, lure, or fly. I use chuck-n-duck techiques while the fish are on the gravel with much success. I use a leader of about 6 to 8 ft of Maxima green mono, 6 or 8 lb. test. I also use a slinky rig exclusively. None, and I mean NONE of the fish that I take from gravel have been lined, raked, flossed, or whatever other derogatory term you care to use. All of the steelhead that take my fly offering have actively taken the fly into their mouths in a feeding action or a defensive action. Fishing for active spawning fish is a perfectly legal method. Others may deem it unethical, but if it were that much of an ethics problem, the state would no doubt outlaw the practice like they did with deliberate snagging of salmon. 99% of the steelhead that I bring to net are released to fight another day. You can believe me or not, or call me a flosser, liner, gravel raker, or anything you like. As long as it is legal, this guy is going to keep fishing accordingly no matter if some other smart-ass kid agrees with my methods or not. Have a great spring.


ummm..to breathe a fish must open its mouth to filter oxygen through the gills,lol. to say you catch a lot pf spawning fish and have NEVER flossed one you are igorant. in my younger years i fished gravel, and while some unpressuredd spawning fish will bite, flossing fish is very common. 6-8 ft leaders is a lining rig...so spare me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

whether or not intentional or not if you have used a 7-8 ft leader for 50 yrs you have flossed fish. if thats how you have tp catch them, whatever i dont care, but dont try to say you have never flossed a fish off gravel if that is how you fish...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Trout King said:


> whether or not intentional or not if you have used a 7-8 ft leader for 50 yrs you have flossed fish. if thats how you have tp catch them, whatever i dont care, but dont try to say you have never flossed a fish off gravel if that is how you fish...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You didn't read my post close enough. I also said that I don't care what some smart ass kid has to say about it. Okay, you want it, then here it is. I HAVE NEVER SO-CALLED FLOSSED A STEELHEAD OFF GRAVEL. I have forgotten about more steelhead that I have caught than you will ever do with your so-called ethical methods. And I do NOT have to catch steelhead this way. I PREFER to catch steelhead by any means that is legal. Funny how each and every fish that I catch from the gravel has the fly imbedded in the INSIDE of its mouth. Now, tell me again, punk, what I am supposedly doing wrong.


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## ReddHead (Feb 17, 2005)

skipper34 said:


> You didn't read my post close enough. I also said that I don't care what some smart ass kid has to say about it. Okay, you want it, then here it is. I HAVE NEVER SO-CALLED FLOSSED A STEELHEAD OFF GRAVEL. I have forgotten about more steelhead that I have caught than you will ever do with your so-called ethical methods. And I do NOT have to catch steelhead this way. I PREFER to catch steelhead by any means that is legal. Funny how each and every fish that I catch from the gravel has the fly imbedded in the INSIDE of its mouth. Now, tell me again, punk, what I am supposedly doing wrong.


Totally agree with u skipper. Some of these guys r so certain they do it the only right way. They r also the ones that give dirty looks on the river when I'm watching fish work the gravel. I may or may not fish it but I know they assume I'm doing something wrong in their eyes. I just can't stand when people put themselves on a pedestal.


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

skipper34 said:


> You didn't read my post close enough. I also said that I don't care what some smart ass kid has to say about it. Okay, you want it, then here it is. I HAVE NEVER SO-CALLED FLOSSED A STEELHEAD OFF GRAVEL. I have forgotten about more steelhead that I have caught than you will ever do with your so-called ethical methods. And I do NOT have to catch steelhead this way. I PREFER to catch steelhead by any means that is legal. Funny how each and every fish that I catch from the gravel has the fly imbedded in the INSIDE of its mouth. Now, tell me again, punk, what I am supposedly doing wrong.


Betcha $1000 I can fish right next to you on your"gravel bar" where fish are spawning and catch just as many as you with a bare hook. It will be located in the same spot in the mouth as yours. 
Long leaders and spawning fish equals fish on. PERIOD
I don't care if you been steelheading for a hundred years. 100% of your fish did not bite when using this method to spawning fish. Not to say most may bite your offering. But never 100% as you claim.

Here fishy fishy..


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

ReddHead said:


> Totally agree with u skipper. Some of these guys r so certain they do it the only right way. They r also the ones that give dirty looks on the river when I'm watching fish work the gravel. I may or may not fish it but I know they assume I'm doing something wrong in their eyes. I just can't stand when people put themselves on a pedestal.


The user name says volumes. Thanks, Redd. Back when flyfishing for steelhead was just beginning, about 40 years or so ago, most if not all of the guys plied the gravel. We learned techniques to fish the proper way without so-called flossing or lining. Somewhere, sometime this new generation of brats who target these fish have decided that fishing for spawners is some kind of taboo. These fish WILL strike a fly on gravel. Not every fisherman is deliberately trying to foul hook them. Whether or not this LEGAL technique of fishing is ethical, I will leave that up to the powers that be in Lansing. I don't need some yuppie telling me that.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

FishKilla419 said:


> Betcha $1000 I can fish right next to you on your"gravel bar" where fish are spawning and catch just as many as you with a bare hook. It will be located in the same spot in the mouth as yours.
> Long leaders and spawning fish equals fish on. PERIOD
> I don't care if you been steelheading for a hundred years. 100% of your fish did not bite when using this method to spawning fish. Not to say most may bite your offering. But never 100% as you claim.
> 
> Here fishy fishy..


Yep, another brat trying to tell an experience steelheader all about it. Does your mommy know you're using her computer?


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## aimus1 (Feb 28, 2011)

ReddHead said:


> Totally agree with u skipper. Some of these guys r so certain they do it the only right way. They r also the ones that give dirty looks on the river when I'm watching fish work the gravel. I may or may not fish it but I know they assume I'm doing something wrong in their eyes. I just can't stand when people put themselves on a pedestal.


 
I certainly won't claim that I do it the only right way. And I place myself no higher than any legal fisherman in the ditch. But to say you have fished steelhead on gravel for years and NEVER flossed a fish is one of the most preposterous statements I've ever heard. I'm not saying that it's your intent to floss fish. It's just something thats bound to happen when utilizing said technique. A fish hooked in the mouth is not an illegally hooked fish and I'm not questioning your ethics. I'm just questioning your ability to accept the fact that it happens. Yes it can happen accidently but I'm not making any assumptions here. Like it or not...flossing fish is an unavoidable FACT when utilizing said technique.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

skipper34 said:


> Yep, another brat trying to tell an experience steelheader all about it. Does your mommy know you're using her computer?


you are the one getting worked up on the subject. i dont care how you fish, it is just rediculous to say you havent lined fish off the gravel. i used to gravel fish i have seen them bite and i also most definately lined fish unintentionally with leaders much less than 7 ft.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

aimus1 said:


> I certainly won't claim that I do it the only right way. And I place myself no higher than any legal fisherman in the ditch. But to say you have fished steelhead on gravel for years and NEVER flossed a fish is one of the most preposterous statements I've ever heard. I'm not saying that it's your intent to floss fish. It's just something thats bound to happen when utilizing said technique. A fish hooked in the mouth is not an illegally hooked fish and I'm not questioning your ethics. I'm just questioning your ability to accept the fact that it happens. Yes it can happen accidently but I'm not making any assumptions here. Like it or not...flossing fish is an unavoidable FACT when utilizing said technique.


I totally agree.


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

skipper34 said:


> Yep, another brat trying to tell an experience steelheader all about it. Does your mommy know you're using her computer?


I've been fishing chrome over 20 years. I'm not experienced though.Sounds like your a grumpy ol fart
Thats way out of touch with reality. The views you express make any"EXPERIENCED STEELHEADER" laugh,lol.
Thats what most are doing they just aren't posting. Ha ha.at you.. 

Just because you've been doing it longer in no way means your better. You can keep telling yourself that though.

Here fishy fishy..


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## Rainman68 (Apr 29, 2011)

Foul hooking fish will happen in a river PERIOD. It doesn't matter what method you use or where on the river you fish. Sure some methods may produce less foul hooked fish but its your choice to fish within the law.


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

I never said anything about a fish not striking a fly when spawning. I know those can be the most aggressive bites of the season. Nor did I bash fishing gravel. If I'm out fishing and I can't find em in the holes cuz there on the gravel spawning. Guess what this dudes fishing gravel. With the busyness of life I may only get a few steelhead trips this year. 
I merely strongly disagreed with"I've never lined a fish with 8' leaders". I believe you didn't intentionally do it. If thats how you like to rig you have to agree theres a chance its happening. 

Here fishy fishy..


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

aimus1 said:


> I certainly won't claim that I do it the only right way. And I place myself no higher than any legal fisherman in the ditch. But to say you have fished steelhead on gravel for years and NEVER flossed a fish is one of the most preposterous statements I've ever heard. I'm not saying that it's your intent to floss fish. It's just something thats bound to happen when utilizing said technique. A fish hooked in the mouth is not an illegally hooked fish and I'm not questioning your ethics. I'm just questioning your ability to accept the fact that it happens. Yes it can happen accidently but I'm not making any assumptions here. Like it or not...flossing fish is an unavoidable FACT when utilizing said technique.


Well put.
Thats what I was trying say. Instead I came off as inexperienced brat.

Here fishy fishy..


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

FishKilla419 said:


> Well put.
> Thats what I was trying say. Instead I came off as inexperienced brat.
> 
> Here fishy fishy..


you are a brat, and i put myself on a pedastel bc of a screen name i put up when i was 14, all because we simply stated a few fish were probably lined over a 40 yr span fishing 8 ft leaders on gravel,lol. 
skipper, come on down next december, im always willing to learn from experienced steelheaders. i got the spots, you bring the leaders.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

Trout King said:


> you are a brat, and i put myself on a pedastel bc of a screen name i put up when i was 14, all because we simply stated a few fish were probably lined over a 40 yr span fishing 8 ft leaders on gravel,lol.
> skipper, come on down next december, im always willing to learn from experienced steelheaders. i got the spots, you bring the leaders.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Steelhead don't run in Dec.
Man you are a rook.

Here fishy fishy..


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## StonedFly (Feb 24, 2012)

I lika do the cha cha.

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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Okay, kids, let's clear this up right now. Yes, I am a crusty old fart. But let me just say that all of you are correct-when fishing gravel there is always the chance that some fish may be foul-hooked. Flossing and lining are modern terms for such things, I guess. Now let me explain to you how I go about this business of fishing gravel. First and foremost, I will never even attempt casting to fish when I cannot obtain a position upstream and at about a 45 degree angle to the fish. I always try to make my casts from this position. The reason is simple. I want to swing my fly down and in front of the fish. This prevents, for the most part, from foul hooking the fish. If I can get a well presented fly down and in front of the MALE fish that are with the female, I have a very good chance of that fish taking my fly, out of frustration or defense of the redd. Yes, occasionally I will foul hook a fish, but this happens very rarely. I always target the male fish because they are the most aggressive and more willing to take the fly. I use chuck-n-duck because the rivers that I fish are small and brushy. Conventional casting leads to more swearing than fishing. I use leaders UP TO 8 FT. because sometimes these fish can be very line shy. Especially in low clear water and bright skies. Like I said, steelhead will strike a well presented fly. Sometimes I will make a hundred casts before they either spook or strike. It is all part of the game. I usually throw streamers of various colors and sizes, as well as small wet flies and sometimes eggs and nymphs. I use lead wire on my larger flies to help sink them and they will present a better side view to the fish when they have lead wire added when tying. I let the fish tell me what they want. If what I am doing doesn't conform to what some may deem ethical tactics, then in those folks' eyes I am guilty as charged. My stance is that as long as I am using legal methods and not trying to foul-hook fish I am good to go. If this explanation doesn't bode well, my sincere apologies.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

FishKilla419 said:


> Steelhead don't run in Dec.
> Man you are a rook.
> 
> Here fishy fishy..


Um, sorry but they do indeed run in December. I have caught many steelhead in December. They may not be on a spawning run, but they are definitely in the rivers. I toss spinners for steelhead in December and they will chase them to hit them. Try it sometime. It's a lot of fun.


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

skipper34 said:


> Um, sorry but they do indeed run in December. I have caught many steelhead in December. They may not be on a spawning run, but they are definitely in the rivers. I toss spinners for steelhead in December and they will chase them to hit them. Try it sometime. It's a lot of fun.


You missed the irony in that bud. I was making a funny.
I have caught steels every month of the year. From bouncing eggs behind kings in the fall to jigs and waxies in the dead of winter to skams on homeade spinners in my sandals no shirt. How about spawning skams in feb? 
Bout the only flies I tie these days are egg patterns and nukes. I usually get enough bites on spawn to leave the fly box in the vest.

Here fishy fishy..


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

skipper34 said:


> Um, sorry but they do indeed run in December. I have caught many steelhead in December. They may not be on a spawning run, but they are definitely in the rivers. I toss spinners for steelhead in December and they will chase them to hit them. Try it sometime. It's a lot of fun.


Bobber down set the hook. Got em.
Shoot it's a skipper. I'll let this one go. Lol

Here fishy fishy..


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

FishKilla419 said:


> Bobber down set the hook. Got em.
> Shoot it's a skipper. I'll let this one go. Lol
> 
> Here fishy fishy..


Lol


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

skipper, the last post was much morr sensible than previous ones. like i stated, i dont care how you fish. i played the gravel game for a few years, yes i caught fish, but i just dont do it anymor bc i just dont enjoy it much. if you do thag is awesome for you. everyone has their own ways and views, as long as it is legal im all about it. 
if you want to see me get fired up get me going on gear restrictions,lol. have fun this spring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Trout King said:


> skipper, the last post was much morr sensible than previous ones. like i stated, i dont care how you fish. i played the gravel game for a few years, yes i caught fish, but i just dont do it anymor bc i just dont enjoy it much. if you do thag is awesome for you. everyone has their own ways and views, as long as it is legal im all about it.
> if you want to see me get fired up get me going on gear restrictions,lol. have fun this spring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thankyou for your approval. I don't think I will be getting up to fish this year. I just had a hip replaced. And yes, I am a crusty old fart, especially now that I have to watch every step I take. But you get up there and get em' for me. Deal?


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

skipper34 said:


> Thankyou for your approval. I don't think I will be getting up to fish this year. I just had a hip replaced. And yes, I am a crusty old fart, especially now that I have to watch every step I take. But you get up there and get em' for me. Deal?


im actually about done with the steels had 8 months of gettin em. gotta get my egg supply, then trout time. sorry to hear you cant get out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Trout King said:


> im actually about done with the steels had 8 months of gettin em. gotta get my egg supply, then trout time. sorry to hear you cant get out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, King. Makes me wish I was your age again. Oh well. Good luck this trout season.


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## FishKilla419 (Feb 22, 2008)

Skip my father had his hip replaced about 12 years ago. It honestly changed his life. He recovered in no time. His back problems vanished. And he's able to make it out golfing no problems still to this day. 
All the ribbing is just in good fun. Hope you did not take offense. Hope you have a speedy recovery and are able to chase some trout....
Tight Lines

Here fishy fishy..


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

FishKilla419 said:


> Skip my father had his hip replaced about 12 years ago. It honestly changed his life. He recovered in no time. His back problems vanished. And he's able to make it out golfing no problems still to this day.
> All the ribbing is just in good fun. Hope you did not take offense. Hope you have a speedy recovery and are able to chase some trout....
> Tight Lines
> 
> Here fishy fishy..


Yeah, I will be dancing before the year's over. Thanks for the well wishes. As for the ribbing, I love it. Take care.


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## marn1186 (Dec 27, 2009)

Wow, I never imagined I would create such a meaty thread topic. I think I get the picture on the C&D rig and "flossing". I thank everyone for their deep input. In my opinion, if its not against the law, then shutty your mouth on how people are fishing. As long as the person is legally fishing then who cares how they land them. Yes, I get if you are intentionally trying to "floss" I can see folks frustration. ..BUT foul hooking is not illegal, snagging is. They are two different things. ... Bottom line. You won't get a ticket for flossing. Yes, I get the "ethics/skill" thing. I caught my first steelie on the Big Man this October with chuck/duck fly rig. No doubt a clean hook up and there is a lot more skill required then some are talking about. I landed one, broke 3 steels off, and broke 2 kings off. One king was fouled hooked in the tail and I snapped my line intentionally. I had a flippin blast! If someone called me a cheater and unethical I would tell me to go fly a kite and pound sand. A dirty look would prob returned with my own expression and maybe a full moon along with my own verbal comments. 

Our streams/rivers/lakes are public places to fish nobody owns them. If you are following the rules/laws I have no problem with you. I am not sure i have patience to hear everyone's individual/fisherman code of ethics that they believe we all shall follow. I am a rookie steel fisherman but have been enjoying fishing for 22 years. Never knew things/opinions could get this heated over such a simple/exciting/ hobby of mine. Yes, I take it seriously. 

Thanks for the tips and lots of good reads. Maybe to lighten the mood... 50 " musky from this summer. 














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