# bobcat trapping



## montrose trapper (Nov 14, 2006)

So what was the final verdict to why bobcat trapping was closed in the lower penninsula? was it because of the conflict with the dog hunters or insufficient population. This kinda bums me out because this year and last year were the first two years ive been able to trap hard. It looks like im gonna have to make a trek to the u.p. or just try and call one in.


----------



## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

I think there is a court date for Nov 14 on the issue. Lets hope for a speedy ruling.

Griff


----------



## Gary A. Schinske (Jul 10, 2006)

In essance there was a suit brought against the NRC/DNR that said they did not abide by their guidelines/rules of using scientific data to establish a season for trapping bobcats in the lower. The NRC/DNR lost the suit, and as griffondog said, the appeal is to be heard on November 14th.


----------



## montrose trapper (Nov 14, 2006)

Ok thanks guys. And just to kinda clear it up I wasnt trying to blame it on the hound hunters. It was just an aspect of the arguement that I had heard and wondered if it was true.


----------



## Nwing (Aug 17, 2005)

Well, the hound hunters are likely appreciative of you not placing the blame on them..but the truth is, that's primarily where it lies.
The Michigan Bear Hunters(a houndsman group) brought the suit up, in order to reduce competition with hunting them with dogs. That this is true is obvious from the fact that DOG hunting was not included.
They use the excuse that there was insufficient data to back up the harvest numbers of trapping, but If there was a legitimate concern with the population..then all forms of harvest would have been effected. As it is, ONLY trapping was stopped. This makes no sense, unless it's looked at from a standpoint of wanting to remove "competition". The hound hunters ask us to stand as one, yet they fail to do so and worse, they initiate a taking of others privileges.
The next time dog hunting is challenged, I for one plan on remembering how the dog hunters acted in this case.


----------



## Northcountry (Feb 4, 2004)

One of the fine members of this forum caught and released three bobcats in the first three days of the coyote season last year, in the NLP. There are so many around that theyre practically a nuisance. Following the rules, he released each one of them unharmed...just so they could later be run by houndsman and killed. I had to do the same thing with a nice NLP bobcat.

We need a lottery system. If you draw a tag then you can choose your method of take.


----------



## CT4570 (Sep 29, 2006)

insufficent data? i thought everyone had to be checked in.how more efficent can you get.


----------



## Shop Rat (Apr 8, 2006)

Northcountry said:


> We need a lottery system. If you draw a tag then you can choose your method of take.


Doesn't this seem so obvious that it is ridiculous? I am looking forward to getting my bobcat points. 

I am not sure if most hunters know that there is a HUGE demand for bobcats nowadays.


----------



## Northcountry (Feb 4, 2004)

Shop Rat said:


> I am not sure if most hunters know that there is a HUGE demand for bobcats nowadays.


Not sure how you mean that, but if youre speaking of fur-market value...I think you may be mistaken. Not that I'm an authority on the subject, but its my understanding that the Great Lakes region doesnt produce the high-dollar 'cats you may have read about. Ours usually have brown backs and relatively weak spots on the belly...whereas the western 'cats are beautifully marked and thus much more valuable.


----------



## Gary A. Schinske (Jul 10, 2006)

In todays unpredictable world of who will the anti's attack next, I do not think it will do anyone but the antis any good to re-air this topic. When it comes to sportsman against sportsman WE ALL LOSE , while the antis set back gaining more momentum and raising more money. Don't misunderstand, I am not asking for the trappers to just roll over, let's just wait and see what the court says on the appeal November 14th. It is not in the hands of any sportsman, group or state agency but in the hands of a court of law. Regardless of the past, all sportsman groups are going to have to work together in the future. The attacks by the antis will be more not less, and they have the dollars to do it. Thank you for understanding.

Gary A. Schinske
President
Michigan Trappers Association


----------



## Shop Rat (Apr 8, 2006)

Northcountry said:


> Not sure how you mean that, but if youre speaking of fur-market value...I think you may be mistaken. Not that I'm an authority on the subject, but its my understanding that the Great Lakes region doesnt produce the high-dollar 'cats you may have read about. Ours usually have brown backs and relatively weak spots on the belly...whereas the western 'cats are beautifully marked and thus much more valuable.


I am not talking about fur value, I am talking about guys predator hunting. There are tons of guys buying small caliber rifles, calls and targeting coyotes and bobcats for a trophy, not necessarily selling the furs.


----------



## Northcountry (Feb 4, 2004)

Gary A. Schinske said:


> In todays unpredictable world of who will the anti's attack next, I do not think it will do anyone but the antis any good to re-air this topic. When it comes to sportsman against sportsman WE ALL LOSE , while the antis set back gaining more momentum and raising more money. Don't misunderstand, I am not asking for the trappers to just roll over, let's just wait and see what the court says on the appeal November 14th. It is not in the hands of any sportsman, group or state agency but in the hands of a court of law. Regardless of the past, all sportsman groups are going to have to work together in the future. The attacks by the antis will be more not less, and they have the dollars to do it. Thank you for understanding.
> 
> Gary A. Schinske
> President
> Michigan Trappers Association


Gary, I respect you and will honor your request. But, take notice of how explosive (in terms of activity and emotion) these threads are. Huge numbers of sportsman feel abused and wronged by the houndsmen groups and we're chomping at the bit, so to speak, to go at it with them. I dont think any amount of group hugging or therapy is gonna get it. "Anti" attacks may not always come in the traditional form. Be aware of strange bedfellows...and watch for wolves in sheeps clothing.

I'm done for now...and looking forward to Nov 14.


----------



## Nwing (Aug 17, 2005)

Gary A. Schinske said:


> In todays unpredictable world of who will the anti's attack next, I do not think it will do anyone but the antis any good to re-air this topic. When it comes to sportsman against sportsman WE ALL LOSE , while the antis set back gaining more momentum and raising more money. Don't misunderstand, I am not asking for the trappers to just roll over, let's just wait and see what the court says on the appeal November 14th. It is not in the hands of any sportsman, group or state agency but in the hands of a court of law. Regardless of the past, all sportsman groups are going to have to work together in the future. The attacks by the antis will be more not less, and they have the dollars to do it. Thank you for understanding.
> 
> Gary A. Schinske
> President
> Michigan Trappers Association


That's a fine sentiment Gary...but it's also naive to expect any group who treats it's fellow sportspersons in such a reprehensible manner, to be given effectively a free pass by not saying anything.


----------



## Shop Rat (Apr 8, 2006)

Northcountry said:


> Not sure how you mean that, but if youre speaking of fur-market value...I think you may be mistaken. Not that I'm an authority on the subject, but its my understanding that the Great Lakes region doesnt produce the high-dollar 'cats you may have read about. Ours usually have brown backs and relatively weak spots on the belly...whereas the western 'cats are beautifully marked and thus much more valuable.


 After re-reading my post, it might sound like I am saying that hunters don't realize the value of their fur. That is not what I meant to say at all.

Let me try again. There is a huge demand for a bobcat as a trophy. There are alot of hunters who want one. Almost every deer hunter I know has or is getting a .17,.22mag, 22-250, or .223 for coyote and bobcat. There are lots of Bobcat guides popping up all over the state. Predator hunting is growing fast.

In the 80's there was a big demand for a bear=lottery and permit system
In the 90's a big demand for elk and turkeys= lottery and permit system
Now, a big demand for bobcats = lottery and permit system

It is only a matter of time for a permit system. I have a ton of respect for trappers, you can ask a trapper friend that I have that traps my land up north. I am not calling for the end of anything, and discussing a permit system should not be taboo, it is working for bear and turkey. (why do I feel like I am walking on egg shells):help: nc, I might try a pm, to straighten this out.


----------



## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

I am willing to see what the Nov 14 th outcome is. I will also follow what our President is asking. However, if the Nov 14th outcome is not favorable for trappers, I will fully support putting a torpedo in the water and hit the houndsmen broadside midship. If the MtA does not support some sort of action, I will withdraw my membership and dues. Trapper and landowner, enough is enough.....I don't mind taking one for the team, but this is utterly ridiculous. I can't harvest a cat on my land so some a--h--- can run his dogs and tresspass and shoot them, bu--sh--!!!!!


----------



## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

I am not if favor of a lottery system for bobcat hunting. The current method is working fine in most of the state. Some spots in the lower pennisula with large areas of state and federal land are over hunted.

The bobcat guide market is to blame for this not the callers and recreational dog hunters. Why would you want to put a system in place to reward the cause of the problem. If a man is getting 200 a day guiding hunters and killing 30 cats a year what a great deal for him. Now with limited tags he can charge 500 a day and still get to cat hunt all year while I get a tag every 4 years. Get rid of the guiding for hire before a lottery is started.

We now have cats expanding into the southern lower and I see cat sign on all the farms I hunt on in the nothern lower. 10 years ago you couldn't find a cat track on them. Looks to me like there moving to better habitat on private property just like our deer herd did.

We have nothing to worry about with more guys getting into predator calling 99 percent of the guys are going to be just like the carrot pile deer hunters we have now. A few more dead cat kits and coyote pups that will be made up for in next years litters.

Griff


----------



## s&a smolen (Feb 20, 2005)

Yes a lottery system.And some day I think it will happen


----------



## oldforester (Feb 12, 2004)

soggybtmboys said:


> I am willing to see what the Nov 14 th outcome is. I will also follow what our President is asking. However, if the Nov 14th outcome is not favorable for trappers, I will fully support putting a torpedo in the water and hit the houndsmen broadside midship. If the MtA does not support some sort of action, I will withdraw my membership and dues. Trapper and landowner, enough is enough.....I don't mind taking one for the team, but this is utterly ridiculous. I can't harvest a cat on my land so some a--h--- can run his dogs and tresspass and shoot them, bu--sh--!!!!!


Well said sir


----------



## LarryA (Jun 16, 2004)

Every one here by now probably knows I am a houndsmen and a trapper. Well, since a few problems have come up between the two groups that I am passionate about, I stopped complaining. I got involved! I plan to stay involved one way or another. I am now a BOD for the Michigan State United **** Hunters Association. I believe that each and every resource should have equal access by all sporting groups, and I will fight for that period. I will also fight for the proper management of the resource. No matter what the out come of the law suit I will push for equal access. I will do this by working with others to provide different working solutions. It is one thing to ask for a change, but another to ask for a change while providing ideas for a solution.

There are many individuals that will complain often and loudly. I offer a challenge to those individuals. Use your energies efficiently, work to solve the problem. Fact is for all of their complaining if they are not part of the solution they are part of the problem. 

Nuff said!


----------



## jackbob42 (Nov 12, 2003)

Could someone tell me exactly what the problem was?
Was it the hound hunters trying to stop cat trapping all together? Or was it that they were trying to keep the number of tags equal for both trappers and houndsman? I've heard so many different things , I'm not sure exactly what it was all about.


----------



## Nwing (Aug 17, 2005)

jackbob42 said:


> Could someone tell me exactly what the problem was?
> Was it the hound hunters trying to stop cat trapping all together? Or was it that they were trying to keep the number of tags equal for both trappers and houndsman? I've heard so many different things , I'm not sure exactly what it was all about.


Jackbob, there was no attempt at all of equity. The bear(hound) hunters tried to and SUCCEEDED in stopping cat trapping totally, while at the same time maintaining dog hunting. Their excuse was that the DNR had not done enough testing to see if a trapping season would harm the population(I think). That was their excuse. However..anyone with even a mote of common sense can see that if there is insufficient information to determine if a trapping season (with a relatively limited harvest) would negatively effect the population..then the same holds true for a hunting season. If trapping is dangerous to the population..what about the guy who runs dogs commercially and is directly responsible for 20 or 30 killed cats per year? Now THERE is a problem.
No...this was greed. The hunters were worried that they would have to share a limited resource, and instead of doing the right thing and doing just that...they instead decided to do their best to outlaw a fellow sportsman's privilege, so they could run a few more cats per year. They were successful.
This is a terrible blow to a group of fellow outdoors persons, and it completely inexcusable.


----------



## Nwing (Aug 17, 2005)

LarryA said:


> Every one here by now probably knows I am a houndsmen and a trapper. Well, since a few problems have come up between the two groups that I am passionate about, I stopped complaining. I got involved! I plan to stay involved one way or another. I am now a BOD for the Michigan State United **** Hunters Association. I believe that each and every resource should have equal access by all sporting groups, and I will fight for that period. I will also fight for the proper management of the resource. No matter what the out come of the law suit I will push for equal access. I will do this by working with others to provide different working solutions. It is one thing to ask for a change, but another to ask for a change while providing ideas for a solution.
> 
> There are many individuals that will complain often and loudly. I offer a challenge to those individuals. Use your energies efficiently, work to solve the problem. Fact is for all of their complaining if they are not part of the solution they are part of the problem.
> 
> Nuff said!


Larry, you are of course correct. I have already started preliminary research into what is required to get a citizens initiative on the ballet.


----------



## LarryA (Jun 16, 2004)

Nwing,

You are totally incorrect. I know for a fact that two houndsmen, one a BOD of MSUCHA and the other an officer of the Hunting Dog Federation, submitted a written proposal to the DNR. I know this because I have a copy of the proposal. They asked me for my input before they submitted the proposal. The DNR turned it down. They said they didn't have the $$ to administer such a program.

Despite the fact that your post is agonistic and incorrect, I wish you the best of luck. If you are going to fight a system and this goes for any system, find out how it works first, and then work on the system within that system. This is still the best way to effectively spur change within any system.

Larry Atherton


----------



## Nwing (Aug 17, 2005)

LarryA said:


> Nwing,
> 
> You are totally incorrect. I know for a fact that two houndsmen, one a BOD of MSUCHA and the other an officer of the Hunting Dog Federation, submitted a written proposal to the DNR. I know this because I have a copy of the proposal. They asked me for my input before they submitted the proposal. The DNR turned it down. They said they didn't have the $$ to administer such a program.
> 
> ...


Larry, I stand partially corrected then. But only partially.
IF such a proposal(I assume a proposal to share the resource?) was proposed...great. However, if the DNR turned it down...why did the MBH then move to stop trapping totally, but NOT stop or curtail hunting?
IF the MBH was worried about the current cat population...they should have pushed for a temporary cessation for ALL lethal taking methods. 
That's not what happened however. The MBH decided that they would take preventative measures to make sure THEIR sport was protected, at the suffrage of another sport. If the cat population dynamics are so unknown as to make the addition of a small number of trapped animals a danger to the long term population..then the bottom line is, so is killing 10, 20, 30 per pack with dogs. Much more so, actually.
That the MBH decided that THEIR sport was safe..but trapping was not..is the problem.
Anyone who looks at this at all, can see the greed that is underlying this issue.
BTW..I don't even trap, never have. This is just such a obvious situation of greed however, that as a sportsman, it really bothers me.


----------

