# House Bill 4554 Smokeless powder ML



## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

House Bill 4554 has been introduced to allow smokeless powder for muzzleloaders. Pretty cool. Here's how it read.
<

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:



Sec. 40113c. Neither the department nor the commission shall 



prohibit the use of a smokeless powder rifle to take game in 



circumstances in which a black powder rifle may be used to take 



game.>
Here you go RZ!
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(oh...g.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2007-hb-4554


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Here we go!


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

Doesn't say anything about Muzzle Stuffers, but it does say Smokeless Powder Rifles can be used in place of Black Powder Rifles, as it is written. Basically says to me I can use a center fire in place of a Muzzle loader. Les:16suspect


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

It is a little confusing the way it was written. I imagine it'll be reviewed and rewritten.
Or, maybe I read it wrong.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

Its all wrecked now! Throw away the muzzle loader and use the centerfires!


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

I just emailed Rep. Calley for a little clarification. We'll see what he says.


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## SteveS (Mar 6, 2003)

I don't see where it says you can use a ceneterfire rifle, it says you can use smokeless powder in a ML. The regulations that define what defines a ML would still stand.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

SteveS said:


> I don't see where it says you can use a ceneterfire rifle, it says you can use smokeless powder in a ML. The regulations that define what defines a ML would still stand.


"Sec. 40113c. Neither the department nor the commission shall 
prohibit the use of a smokeless powder rifle to take game in 
circumstances in which a black powder rifle may be used to take 
game."
Here's the question.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

SteveS said:


> ...it says you can use smokeless powder in a ML


If you read it carefully you will notice that, as written, it does not say that, either.

-na


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

Exactly my point guys, they gotta look at what they are writing, that needs to be defined better. I would use that to my benefit in the shotgun only area during muzzle loading season the way that is written they couldn't ticket you for it. No definitions. Les


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

QuakrTrakr said:


> I just emailed Rep. Calley for a little clarification. We'll see what he says.


When I posted it I ASSumed it was what RZ was pushing for. The ability to use smokeless powder in the Savage ML-10 or whatever Ultimate gun that'll shoot smokeless. I guess I jumped the gun a bit. 
Whatever the reason this was introduced, it seems to benefit us, the hunter. That is unless you're a traditionalist. Any way you look at it, it's a strike against the ANTI- hunters. I have no intentions of shooting it, but it's a win for us if we get this oppertunity.


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## SteveS (Mar 6, 2003)

QuakrTrakr said:


> When I posted it I ASSumed it was what RZ was pushing for. The ability to use smokeless powder in the Savage ML-10 or whatever Ultimate gun that'll shoot smokeless.


I assumed the same thing and that all of the other rules and regulations in regards to what can be used would still stand.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

maybe i'm reading it wrong, but i think its worded just fine.

"Sec. 40113c. Neither the department nor the commission shall
prohibit the use of a smokeless powder rifle to take game in
circumstances in which a black powder rifle may be used to take
game."

all this says is that, if you can use black powder, you can use smokeless powder.

this has nothing to do with centerfire vs. muzzleloading. those laws will remain intact, and must be adhered to.

the law is not a muzzleloading law. it simply states that the undue burden of regulating which type of propellant (smokeless vs. black powder vs. BP subs) is used IN ANY FIREARM will be removed.

obviously, it affects muzzleloader hunting, but its not strictly tied to it.

i like the way its written. as specific as it needs to be.

if we put it in archery terms, it would be like saying:

"Neither the department nor the commission shall
prohibit the use of a *carbon arrow* to take game in
circumstances in which an *aluminum arrow* may be used to take
game."

that statement would not legalize crossbows during archery season. it makes no statement as to what type of bow can be used, only that, if you can use an aluminum arrow, you now can use a carbon arrow as well.

perfect. i'll support it. thanks for the heads up quakr.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

Nick Adams said:


> If you read it carefully you will notice that, as written, it does not say that, either.
> 
> -na


what do you think it says, nick?


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

I just think if the terms "muzzleloading" and/or "breechloading" rifle were used , it would clarify it more. As it sounds now, it sounds like a centerfire rifle will able to be used during muzzleloading season. That's not how I think it was intended to sound but.......


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

QuakrTrakr said:


> I just think if the terms "muzzleloading" and/or "breechloading" rifle were used , it would clarify it more. As it sounds now, it sounds like a centerfire rifle will able to be used during muzzleloading season. That's not how I think it was intended to sound but.......


no, i don't think that's how it sounds at all.. its so simple - if you can legally hunt with black powder, then you can legally hunt with smokeless. there's no implicit or explicit impact on the definition of breech/muzzle loading. those laws remain unaffected.

what it does is level the playing field.

today, as it stands, if i want to load black powder in my 45-70, and hunt in the rifle zone, i'm permitted to do so. conversely, if i want to hunt with smokeless in my 45-70, that's fine too. if i want to rabbit hunt with a black powder shotgun, hey - no problem. or if i want to use a modern smokeless shotshell - go for it. but right now, if i want to use smokeless powder in my muzzleloader (during muzzleloading season), i'm prohibited. 

in NO other hunting scenario, do we regulate the TYPE OF PROPELLANT.

propellant does not define the firearm.

its hard not to think about it in muzzleloading terms, because that's the area of biggest impact. but there's no need to distinguish the type of action that it applies to - that's unnecessarily specific.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

You're right. Good point. I didn't think of non-muzzleloading guns.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

rzdrmh said:


> what do you think it says, nick?


It makes no reference to smokeless powder. It refers to rifles that _use_ smokeless powder. The phrase "smokeless powder" occurs once as an adjective, but nowhere does it occur as the object of a sentence.

It says you can't be prohibited from using that type of rifle to take game "in circumstances in which a black powder rifle can be used to take game". Those circumstances as they currently apply to rifles during the muzzleloader deer season include:

- loaded from the muzzle
- loaded with blackpowder or BP sub

You aren't prohibited from using those rifles under those circumstances now. I don't see how it changes anything.

-na


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Here's the heading of the bill-

<Natural resources; hunting; smokeless gun powder; allow use of in same circumstances as black powder. Amends 1994 PA 451 (MCL 324.101 - 324.90106) by adding sec. 40113c.
Last Action: 4/5/2007 - printed bill filed 03/30/2007>

Funny how the Last Action taken on this bill is TOMMOROW!


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

Nick Adams said:


> It makes no reference to smokeless powder. It refers to rifles that _use_ smokeless powder. The phrase "smokeless powder" occurs once as an adjective, but nowhere does it occur as the object of a sentence.
> 
> It says you can't be prohibited from using that type of rifle to take game "in circumstances in which a black powder rifle can be used to take game". Those circumstances as they currently apply to rifles during the muzzleloader deer season include:
> 
> ...


good explanation. i can see your point.

however, i think it was worded as such to address safety concerns - that is - the intent is to allow smokeless powder, but only in _smokeless powder rifles_.

though i think the law, as written, implicitly legalizes the use of smokeless powder. if i were to say, "you will not be prohibited from using gasoline engine cars where diesel engine cars are legal" - it would essentially legalize the use of gasoline by proxy, though the law addressed the usage of cars. as quakr pointed out, the heading of the bill reads:

Natural resources; hunting; s*mokeless gun powder*; *allow use of in same circumstances as black powder.*

nick, while i think you have a valid point, i also think that the intent of the bill is to allow smokeless powder (or worded another way, eliminate complexity of trying to define what constitutes black powder subs) during any season. i believe that this will be the prevailing interpretation of the law should it pass. though, it might be better written if it were written as such:

"Sec. 40113c. Neither the department nor the commission shall
prohibit the use of a smokeless powder to take game in
circumstances in which a black powder may be used to take
game."


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