# mallard or black duck?



## DuckMan87 (Jun 11, 2009)

Had this come up last year in teh check station, dude wasnt sure what to classify it as...was one of the hi-brid black duck/drake mallards.

What would u guys call it? we called it a black duck being that i had my 4 mallards. is it just a gimme duck that will fill either limit?


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

I'd have to see a picture before I commented on the make or model of said duck. Sounds like it fit you better to call it a black eh?
Smoke


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## adam bomb (Feb 27, 2006)

You dont have any pic up, so i cant make a determination, but the determination is made by its wing speculum.


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## DuckMan87 (Jun 11, 2009)

adam bomb said:


> You dont have any pic up, so i cant make a determination, but the determination is made by its wing speculum.


well i dont have a pic of the bird..wings said black duck so i guess that answers it


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

DuckMan87 said:


> well i dont have a pic of the bird..wings said black duck so i guess that answers it


Was there any white bar what so ever on the top of the speculum?


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## ScavengerMan (Sep 6, 2006)

Once again the key is the wing. A mallard will have a white band on the top and bottom of the speculum a black duck has none. In the case of a hybrid faint white bands not as distinct as usual will qualify the bird as a mallard for the purposes of bag limit. A conservation officer does have some discretion in this situation and knowing wing identification along with some reasonable communication could save you a ticket and/or trip to court. 

Black Duck
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/duckplum/amblack.htm

Mallard
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/duckplum/mallard.htm


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## waxico (Jan 21, 2008)

CO's and managed areas always count which half of the the hybrid that best fits with your bird count.
They want those suckers gone from the gene pool


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

ScavengerMan said:


> Once again the key is the wing. A mallard will have a white band on the top and bottom of the speculum a black duck has none. *In the case of a hybrid faint white bands not as distinct as usual will qualify the bird as a mallard for the purposes of bag limit.* A conservation officer does have some discretion in this situation and knowing wing identification along with some reasonable communication could save you a ticket and/or trip to court.
> 
> Black Duck
> http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/duckplum/amblack.htm
> ...


I don't think anyone would argue against this being a black duck. Even it had a faint white bar on the bottom of the speculum. I would say the qualifying factor as a 'mallard' would be having a slight white bar on the top of the speculum. If any white bar qualifies a duck as a mallard, there would be very very few black ducks left.


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## Duckman Racing (Oct 11, 2004)

Ieatantlers said:


> I don't think anyone would argue against this being a black duck. Even it had a faint white bar on the bottom of the speculum. I would say the qualifying factor as a 'mallard' would be having a slight white bar on the top of the speculum. If any white bar qualifies a duck as a mallard, there would be very very few black ducks left.


 I agree, the determining factor is whether or not there is a white bar on the top of the speculum, most of the black ducks I have seen in the past few years have at least some white on the bottom of the speculum.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

Ieatantlers said:


> If any white bar qualifies a duck as a mallard, there would be very very few black ducks left.


Cant tell from your pic but it looks like a black. Many of the blacks we have shot (not in MI) have no white on the speculum at all, not even a faint dusting on the bottom. I also go by dark coverts on the under side of the wing also, >10 its a black. The black pic scavengerman posted from npws shows a hint on white which i dont personally count as a white bar. I go by the bottom bar being distinct and absence of a top white bar to count it as a hybrid. However thats up to the CO and what they think when checked. Hybrid can be put to what makes your bag legal.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Outside of traditional waterfowl areas inside of Michigan, how well do you think that COs can tell the difference between a hen mallard, black or hybrid.


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## firenut8190 (Jul 15, 2006)

So what do you call this duck? He has a white bar! I call it a black.
















Underneath the wings.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Ieatantlers said:


> I don't think anyone would argue against this being a black duck.



agreed. it's usually not one feature to look at if you're not sure. use some deductive reasoning and start eleminating the possibilities of what it could be more like. 

speculum striping, speculum color, bill coloration, overall coloration, feet... they can all help narrow it down, eliminate and/or help pronounce it's "More like" in a true hybrid situation.

Blacks are tootsie roll brown/ mocha colored. drakes have a yellow bill like a drake mallard and a greenish olive color for the hen.

hen mallards a lighter brown, leathery color. get the two side by side and it's pretty evident which one is which.

(looks like a drake black in the pic.)


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

waxico said:


> CO's and managed areas always count which half of the the hybrid that best fits with your bird count.
> They want those suckers gone from the gene pool


Not the managed area that I hunt. They are there to write tickets. They go by the wing.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Fire: it's a black and another Drake.


notice in firenuts pic the more uniform coloration of the black duck vs. how much white is in the belly of a hen


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

Branta said:


> (looks like a drake black in the pic.)


Yep. He was a nice one too. A good one to mount, but I don't have the cash for a duck I consider pretty bland for even exceptional drakes. Now if money was no object, he'd prolly head to the taxi.

When it comes to the speculum- its not like you can see if it has a thin white bar or not on the wing. And if you have shot your 4 mallards, and an obvious 'black' duck comes in, I'm gonna shoot it- regardless of it having a thin white bar or not. A black on the wing is obvious enough from a hen mallard.


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## eyecatcher (Feb 2, 2004)

Its a black. I have seen and been told by expert waterfowl biologist. that blacks often will have a white bar at the top and bottom of the speculum.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

I think Branta hit the nail on the head. There are many factors involved. Speculum aside, the first thing I see in this picture is a hen mallard with the wrong colored bill..........obvious black to me. A mallard hen and a mallard drake don't have the same colored bill.


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## ScavengerMan (Sep 6, 2006)

eyecatcher said:


> I have seen and been told by expert waterfowl biologist. that blacks often will have a white bar at the top and bottom of the speculum.



No way! The foremost expert in Michigan when it comes to wing identification, Terry Clark, who trains Michigan Conservation officers on ID and puts on an educational seminar every year at the Bay City Waterfowl Clinic clearly states if it has two white bars it's considered to be a mallard, period. Black ducks do not have two white bars, there is no two ways about it. If you have four mallards in the bag and end up with what you try to pass off as a black with white bars on the top and bottom of the speculum be prepared to receive a fat ticket.





.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

Here is a hybrid I shot 2 years ago. 

I thought it was whatever it is MOSTLY is what they would count it as. This guy was about 50/50. BTW, it didn't matter on this day:lol:.











The curls on the pure mallard were already deposited on my trophy wall.










I have this hybrid mounted and I'm looking at it right now. The upper speculum bar is VERY faint on this bird. If a CO gave you a ticket over this bird, he was having a bad day and you were probably being a jack***.


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## FullBody (Nov 4, 2008)

Cool bird! That thing does look 50/50.


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## DuckMan87 (Jun 11, 2009)

LoBrass said:


> Here is a hybrid I shot 2 years ago.
> 
> I thought it was whatever it is MOSTLY is what they would count it as. This guy was about 50/50. BTW, it didn't matter on this day:lol:.
> 
> ...


U STOLE MY BIRD!! lol but really thats EXACTLY what he looked like..onyl difference was that hsi belly was more of black duck..lots darker


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## thedude (Jul 20, 2004)

buddy of mine snapped this guy down on the grand last Feb. you can see the green tinge to its head.


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## adam bomb (Feb 27, 2006)

Heres a hybrid we got last year.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

adam bomb said:


> Heres a hybrid we got last year.


Adam Bomb cool duck. That bird is like 90% black duck and low and behold, he has a white upper bar on the speculum:yikes:. Now, according to Scavengerman that's to be counted as a mallard LOL!! 
I don't know anyone that would call that a mallard. Hybrid, yes, count as a black, you bet!
The moral of the story, you have to look at each bird and whatever they look like the most is what you count them as.


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## adam bomb (Feb 27, 2006)

I agree, it looked like a black on the wing. Came in and banked away from us had the belly view if you will. Large duck, dark body, light head super light underwing....thought black all the way when we put the bead on it. But, when i picked it up i was like hmmm...thats different.:lol: We counted it as a mallard in our bag as we were told by a C.O. that the determination of species for your bag limit goes by the wing speculum on a duck like that. The area manager confirmed that that day when we checked in.


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

LoBrass said:


> The moral of the story, you have to look at each bird and whatever they look like the most is what you count them as.


Ask 10 different C.O's, and see how many agree with you.


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

Water_Hazard said:


> Ask 10 different C.O's, and see how many agree with you.


The manager at Harsen's a few years ago told me at the check station "whatever it looks the most like is what it will count as in your bag". This is where I came up with this idea of how to place a hybrid duck in your bag limit.
I for one would go to court and have full confidence that if I had Adam Bombs bird, I would not get a ticket or a fine if I put it into my bag as a black duck. Maybe I'm off base, but I would put that in my bag as a black duck, no question. 
Can someone find any definition or definitive answer in the duck guide relating to hybrids? I've looked and can't find anything. If it was a major issue there would be a clause in the regulations.
Has anyone found a court case where precedence has been set? I'd imagine that the answer would be no. Why? Because there is to much variation in hybrids to make a definitive ID and because you could, with DNA testing, prove that it is BOTH species. I would be willing to bet that a judge would throw it out.
(Can't wait for my next hybrid challenge:evil


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## Duckman Racing (Oct 11, 2004)

LoBrass said:


> Can someone find any definition or definitive answer in the duck guide relating to hybrids? I've looked and can't find anything. If it was a major issue there would be a clause in the regulations.


I think the main reason for relying on the wing comes from this requirement:



> You may not transport any dressed or plucked bird unless one fully feathered wing is attached.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

LoBrass said:


> Adam Bomb cool duck. That bird is like 90% black duck and low and behold, he has a white upper bar on the speculum:yikes:. Now, according to Scavengerman that's to be counted as a mallard LOL!!
> I don't know anyone that would call that a mallard. Hybrid, yes, count as a black, you bet!


These biologists who wrote this paper at the Northern Prarie Wildlife Reasearch station in ND would call that an Immature mallard drake  (thats what i would call it, however i am not the law and would agree with scavengerman). Look at the underwing of adam bombs duck. No dark covert feathers at all which would make it a mallard. Blacks have >10 dark covert feathers. Hybrids have 10-4 dark under feathers. None at all would classify it as a mallard.

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/diplume/results.htm

Firenut, without seeing the underwing, me personally would call that a hybrid, it looks 95% black except for the white bar below the speculum (just my opinion). The black duck researchers that i hunted with in NE Ont trapped tonnes of blacks and when we discussed this they said a black will have no white bar above the speculum and some may have a faint dusting of white below the speculum. If you could see a distinct white bar the entire length at the bottom of the speculum (regardless of how thick), they considered it a hybrid. Most blacks we shot had no white once so ever on the speculum, some had that faint dusting along the bottom.



eyecatcher said:


> I have seen and been told by expert waterfowl biologist. that blacks often will have a white bar at the top and bottom of the speculum.


Who? So we can continue this debate. I dont think there is a paper written out there that states a black has a white bar above the speculum.

If you are ever at the Bay City show and are able to sit in Mr. Clarks seminar it is very informative, even for seasoned vets.

Have a safe season everyone, any hybrid birds shot, post up pics of the underwing


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

I don't know adam- I think that thing looks 90% juvie drake to me- not 90% black. Bill, green in head, wing speculum, chestnut coloring starting in the chest, all point to juvie drake. The underside coloring is about the only thing that looks somewhat black duck. I would count that thing as a mallard.

The more I look at that thing- the more I believe its just an immature drake, thats why the head looked so much lighter- the chestnut was coming into its chest. I don't really see anything that say black???


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

OK, OK, OK!!! 

I have never gotten a ticket, nor do I want one. Now I am scared to death to shoot a hybrid for fear that I will add it to my bag improperly. From now on I will show voluntary restraint and curb my hybrid harvest.

Better yet, we clearly need to push for a new duck added to the bag limit, HYBRID!! I say allow 4, only one of which may be a hen. That would solve everything. (I wonder how many hybrids would be in the bag if that were to happen)


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

LoBrass said:


> OK, OK, OK!!!
> 
> I have never gotten a ticket, nor do I want one. Now I am scared to death to shoot a hybrid for fear that I will add it to my bag improperly. From now on I will show voluntary restraint and curb my hybrid harvest.
> 
> Better yet, we clearly need to push for a new duck added to the bag limit, HYBRID!! I say allow 4, only one of which may be a hen. That would solve everything. (I wonder how many hybrids would be in the bag if that were to happen)


I agree, add a hybrid in as whatever you want. Just, that isn't a hybrid.:lol: Its an immature drake mallard.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Ahh, the thread we had been missing, where eveyone thinks they are shooting hybrids.:lol: Any kind of off color feather now is concluded to be a result of a cross. Check out the pics of "The Waterfowlers" hybrids and there is absolutely no doubt.


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## DuckMan87 (Jun 11, 2009)

LoBrass said:


> The manager at Harsen's a few years ago told me at the check station "whatever it looks the most like is what it will count as in your bag". This is where I came up with this idea of how to place a hybrid duck in your bag limit.
> I for one would go to court and have full confidence that if I had Adam Bombs bird, I would not get a ticket or a fine if I put it into my bag as a black duck. Maybe I'm off base, but I would put that in my bag as a black duck, no question.
> Can someone find any definition or definitive answer in the duck guide relating to hybrids? I've looked and can't find anything. If it was a major issue there would be a clause in the regulations.
> Has anyone found a court case where precedence has been set? I'd imagine that the answer would be no. Why? Because there is to much variation in hybrids to make a definitive ID and because you could, with DNA testing, prove that it is BOTH species. I would be willing to bet that a judge would throw it out.
> (Can't wait for my next hybrid challenge:evil


just curious was it the older guy? tahts always nice with a smile on his face? if so hes the one that told me teh same thing! love that guy hes about the only guy that doesnt get an attitude when u ask legit questions


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

The guy was about 5' 6" dark hair and stocky. I thought he was the manager at the time. 
I honestly haven't been to Harsen's in a few years, so I don't even know if he is still there.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

if this goes 4 pages...

imagine if we throw in the hermaphrodite as well?


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## adam bomb (Feb 27, 2006)

:lol:...This board cracks me up. I posted these very pics before this discriminating board last year and even the Kid said nice hybrid, as did the area manager where we checked the bird in.

In the end, we knew it was a mallard or black, thought black on the wing with its dark body, large size and contrasting head/underwings with the view we had in the conditions we were hunting in. And being within our legal limit for either mallards or blacks it went belly up duck very nicely. Once in hand we did count it as a mallard because of its wing speculum. In closing, its an odd looking legal bird and it tasted good. Thanks for coming through our dekes.:evil:


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

adam bomb said:


> even the Kid said nice hybrid


     Even capitalizing his name like God. :lol: Maybe the Kid can be wrong once in a while....


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## adam bomb (Feb 27, 2006)

Dont you capitalize names? Im not saying the guys god or idolizing him, but he is well respected on the board, as is his opinion and has a day or two in the marsh. Like i said, dont matter to me, was a legal bird, end of story. Good huntin bro.


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## adam bomb (Feb 27, 2006)

Is it page 4 yet?:lol:


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

adam bomb said:


> Dont you capitalize names? Im not saying the guys god or idolizing him, but he is well respected on the board, as is his opinion and has a day or two in the marsh. Like i said, dont matter to me, was a legal bird, end of story. Good huntin bro.


Just given ya a hard time. Doesn't matter to me either. Just have an itchy trigger finger to lay the smack down tomorrow. Good luck.


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## adam bomb (Feb 27, 2006)

I know ya are. Im ready to smack em in the morning as well. Been waiting a long time for this. Ecspecially when last weeks plan for zone two got shot in the ****!:smile-mad:rant:

Good luck in the morning...Smack a duck!


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Kids never been wrong... just ask him. :lol:

(I just love fat elvis!)


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## Flooded Timber (Nov 1, 2006)

You shouldn't be picking on SK when he is gone to his happy place... Bad Branta, Bad Branta...:lol::lol: It was funny though:evilsmile


PS one more post and its the headliner on page #4


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

I'll push for 4pgs, post padding at its best.

Mission accomplished!


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## Duckman Racing (Oct 11, 2004)

wavie said:


> I'll push for 4pgs, post padding at its best.


 I would argue that this is an example of post padding at its worst.



:lol:


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## Feather Mucker (Nov 9, 2007)

we are already past four pages anyway. I noticed at the Shiawassee check station the mounted "black" duck with white bars top and bottom on the wing. The wings in the display case showed the Black duck wings as described here with no discernible bars top or bottom. Doe this mean the stuffer is a hybrid?


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

I've heard it said that our Great Lakes mallards are genetically more closely related to black ducks than they are to true mallards in the Pacific Flyway. The Black/Mallard hybrid thing on the East Coast is so prevalent that managers are worried about losing the pure "black duck" genetics altogether. The thing is that most of the hybrids between mallards and blacks are viable, meaning that they can reproduce without any problems (unlike a mallard/pintail hybrid which also happens pretty frequently in some parts of the country). Given the genetics and that these offspring are viable, the reality is that black ducks are probably just a "race" or "breed" of mallard and not a separate species at all. 

Calling any black/mallard hybrid a "mallard" would be a safe bet - as long as when you do that you don't have more than four total, no more than one hen, and you don't have another true black in your bag at the same time.:evilsmile


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