# sick of being degraded



## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

I thought coolers were made to put fish in?


----------



## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Anyone who has spent much time on the Manistee knows that you lose the vast majority of reproduction to water quality (temp) and predation.
It's a simple equation.
Water pumping thru dam hits 70 degrees in the summer.
Fry congregate in numbers wherever a cold spring flows in.
Panfish, Bass and trout pick them off like " fish in a barrel"
You can try and blame it on over harvest, walking thru redds and so on but until the water quality improves coming thru those turbines we'll never know what the Big M is truly capable of doing as far as natural reproduction


----------



## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

I think you guys are taking me out of context here....I'm not dispising anybody keeping fish. Just pointing out why some guys don't like fish being kept and then verbalizing it on the river. Some guys in the know have good reason for releasing fish............

If you want more info, get a copy of "Steelhead Dreams" or start doing some major research via Google. Maybe even talk to a State biologist that works with potamodromous fish.

Rememeber too that Lake Michigan could clear up just like Huron and send numbers into a tizzy.......and like the Ausable, see decreases in steelhead numbers so bad that very few of the dinosaurs that used to fish the river often, don't do so now. Don't just think for the now is all I'm saying. Where did all the atlantics go? Hmmm.....

Yes, the DNR sets limits to "make sure" there will be fishable numbers for years to come....

One other thing I should mention. On my home waters, we used to see plantings of 20,000 fish a year. Last year they implemented a 10,000 fish plant instead of 20,000. Now, I know that, but how many others do you think know that? Some guys will still keep 25 fish. What's in store for me in 3-10 years? On top of that, we don't see a huge run on these unmentionable waters I speak of.

Just sayiing there's a ton of variables and we don't know when the steelhead runs will cease....could be soon, could be 2100. Look at our deer herd!:yikes:

Aldo Leupold has some good readings to....


----------



## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

Here's a good example....I wanted to be a firefighter/paramedic. I got an education, got qualified, got a Medics license, got experience....I tested for 34 full time fire departments and never got a job. I was up against 300-600 other applicants for each job opening.

Apply that to fishing.....

wintrrun:

All of the factors I mentioned are factors....not just water quality. What matters is that 1 in 600 eggs laid makes it to a mature steelhead in the Great Lakes (average).....doesn't matter what factor was the deciding factor for an individual egg, parr, smolt, steelhead....

If some one really wants to argue, come up here and watch the Natives spear them off their redds............


----------



## 1ManWolfPak (Dec 19, 2009)

Just ignore em', no reason to give someone crap about doing something legal. I have kept many limits of steel, and could care less what anyone thought. I know they are goin to good use, and not to waste. And some people say steel taste like crap, well then they havn't tried it on the grill. If you know how to cook em', they are awesome. Not to mention good smoked. I do nowadays like to keep males if i can, and let the females go. But i will never say somethin to someone else for keeping a legal caught fish. In my experience, most of the time the people that say somethin are the idiots that are camped out on a gravel flat just waitin for one of the silver fish to come sneakin up, and then rake the crap out of the holdin spot. And in their case, they should let the fish go, cause half the time the fish didn't bite anyways. OOPS, sorry for turnin this into a gravel debate, just got myself a lil fired up.


----------



## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

uptracker said:


> One other thing I should mention. On my home waters, we used to see plantings of 20,000 fish a year. Last year they implemented a 10,000 fish plant instead of 20,000. Now, I know that, but how many others do you think know that?* Some guys will still keep 25 fish. What's in store for me in 3-10 years?* On top of that, we don't see a huge run on these unmentionable waters I speak of.
> 
> Just sayiing there's a ton of variables and we don't know when the steelhead runs will cease....could be soon, could be 2100. Look at our deer herd!:yikes:
> 
> Aldo Leupold has some good readings to....


Throw the fish back you catch.


----------



## Fishbone (Oct 10, 2008)

wintrrun said:


> Anyone who has spent much time on the Manistee knows that you lose the vast majority of reproduction to water quality (temp) and predation.
> It's a simple equation.
> Water pumping thru dam hits 70 degrees in the summer.
> Fry congregate in numbers wherever a cold spring flows in.
> ...



My all time favorite is when the MDNR stock fresh Michigan Steelhead yearlings into a unmentionable trib north of Grand Rapids near the end of April, early May. The timing could not be anymore perfect when those huge northern pike are still hanging around gobbling em' all up. 

It's a fish barrel alright. Eat em' up boys.... :lol:


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Fishbone said:


> My all time favorite is when the MDNR stock fresh Michigan Steelhead yearlings into a unmentionable trib north of Grand Rapids near the end of April, early May. The timing could not be anymore perfect when those huge northern pike are still hanging around gobbling em' all up.
> 
> It's a fish barrel alright. Eat em' up boys.... :lol:


That "timing" is necessary. It is early enough so the river, including, especially, the Grand R., is still cold enough for the smolts to go downstream to Lake Michigan. If the water is too warm the plants will not migrate out of the system and many will actually go upstream seeking colder water.

As for the northern pike they will be a threat to the fish no matter when they are planted. Changing the timing...which can't be done anyway (see above)...will not change this one bit.

Indeed the DNRE knows what they're doing in this regard.


----------



## Fishbone (Oct 10, 2008)

Whit1 said:


> That "timing" is necessary. It is early enough so the river, including, especially, the Grand R., is still cold enough for the smolts to go downstream to Lake Michigan. If the water is too warm the plants will not migrate out of the system and many will actually go upstream seeking colder water.
> 
> As for the northern pike they will be a threat to the fish no matter when they are planted. Changing the timing...which can't be done anyway (see above)...will not change this one bit.
> 
> Indeed the DNRE knows what they're doing in this regard.


I totally comprehend the whole 'timing' issue in regard to smolt migration. The only point I was trying to make out, is, higher concentrations of predator fish are present during late spring fish plantings.

It is one small variable of many, but I suppose it's the price the little expensive baits have to pay while being introduced into a warm water fishery. :chillin:


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Fishbone said:


> I totally comprehend the whole 'timing' issue in regard to smolt migration. The only point I was trying to make out, is, higher concentrations of predator fish are present during late spring fish plantings.
> 
> It is one small variable of many, but I suppose it's the price the little expensive baits have to pay while being introduced into a warm water fishery. :chillin:


I understand what you're saying, but in your first post you seemed to be slamming the DNRE for planting the fish at a time when northern pike are around. Do you think there's an alternative time to plant the fish? If so when?

Late April or early May matters not when predator fish being in those two rivers. They are there 12 months a year. Maybe not as concentrated (due to spawning), but the smolts must run...swim rather...their gauntlet regardless of when they're planted.

I'm in FL right now and the mornings are cooler so it's not pool time yet so I have time on my hands for such a discussion.........


----------



## Fishbone (Oct 10, 2008)

Whit1 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but in your first post you seemed to be slamming the DNRE for planting the fish at a time when northern pike are around.


It is not the MDNR who was slammed. It is the Steelhead smolts that are slammed by large Northern Pike teeth. I do not have a problem with that. :lol: 



Whit1 said:


> Do you think there's an alternative time to plant the fish? If so when?


Time wise, it would not be scientifically possible. Plant Steelhead smolts in another location were predator fish are less concentrated? Sounds a little bit more reasonable to me. 



Whit1 said:


> Late April or early May matters not when predator fish being in those two rivers. They are there 12 months a year. Maybe not as concentrated (due to spawning), but the smolts must run...swim rather...their gauntlet regardless of when they're planted.
> 
> I'm in FL right now and the mornings are cooler so it's not pool time yet so I have time on my hands for such a discussion.........


I understand your point when it comes predator fish hanging around 12 months a year. If it were me, I would rather take my chances of swimming in a pool that was stocked with a few piranha, oppose to a high concentration of piranha's all at once. The numbers would speak for themselves, and could possibly 'up the odds' of survival rate by at least a few percent. 

Enjoy your morning swim. :lol:


----------



## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

The DNR has been planting at similar times for a very long time. There have always been predator fish that consume smolts. Changes in the numbers of returning anadromous fish are not due to reduced numbers of spawning fish. Maybe from reduced plantings, and degradation of their habitat - primarily the Great Lakes. If the forage base has declined by 50% (it is probably much more than that), then some of the fish will starve after smolting. I still maintain that there are enough spawning Steelhead in the rivers that have viable natural reproduction, to maintain the numbers those rivers can support. A DNR biologist once told me that he figured around 3,000,000 Steelhead are hatched annually in the Big Manistee River; but almost none of them survive to smolt; which means almost none will return as adults. That is why planting is necessary. The Big gets quite a few strays from the Little River's wild fish, though.


----------



## JimP (Feb 8, 2002)

Whit1 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but in your first post you seemed to be slamming the DNRE for planting the fish at a time when northern pike are around. Do you think there's an alternative time to plant the fish? If so when?
> 
> Late April or early May matters not when predator fish being in those two rivers. They are there 12 months a year. Maybe not as concentrated (due to spawning), but the smolts must run...swim rather...their gauntlet regardless of when they're planted.
> 
> I'm in FL right now and the mornings are cooler so it's not pool time yet so I have time on my hands for such a discussion.........


Hello Whit, Keep enjoying that warm sun, we're sunny but chilly here...
and dry as can be.

A few years ago around Easter break or so, I watched another seemingly goofy move by the DNRE.
They pulled a big planter truck onto the ramp at Betsie Bay.
On went the hose and thousands of smolts began flowing out into the bay...
Whammo, within 5 minutes the sky was black with Cormorants.
I would hazard a quess of at least 150-200.
They were coming up sometimes with 2 fish at a time.

Pretty expensive bird food.

There was still a few ice sheets on the water, my first thought was why not do it a bit earlier and plant through a hole in the ice...the next thought was why not at night or very early before he birds were active...


.


----------



## big_phish (Jan 1, 2009)

Everyone has provided great points. Also keep in mind that we are allowed to harvest these fish so that population levels are controlled. Why did they raise salmon limits or limit the amount of deer, turkey, bear, elk, etc...that we harvest each year. It's a measure to ensure that there are enough resources for them to thrive as a species. Yes, a small, percentage of fish make it to adulthood but that's due to many factors(disease, natural predation) not just the fact that we keep our limit. 

I personally like the taste of steelhead and have no problem keeping a few for the smoker. My wife says if I'm spending all this money on equipment, I better be bringing home some fish. :lol: Bottom line, you've done nothing wrong and if someone is giving you a hard time, take the steelie off the stringer and bleed the fish right in front of them. :lol: Maybe they'll have a heartattack at the site of it and you'll never have to see them again. :lol: But seriously, just report them. There should be no reason why you should have to endure harrassment when you are trying to have a good time. If they are doing it to you, chances are, they are doing it to someone else. 

By the way, I've fished the BM exclusively during the steelie run and not once have I had an encounter of the such. I can look rather intimidating standing 5'8" in my tight brown neoprene waders and with a 10 foot pole in my hand.:lol: The last thing you don't want to have happen is to let someone else take away what you like to do. Tight Lines.


----------



## JHO (Sep 23, 2007)

This whole catch and release or keep them thread is kind of funny.You are by law allowed to keep up to 3 fish,if you want to then do it.Get a little thicker skin and quit worrying about what everyone else says .Personally I choose to keep none.I think they taste average at best and if I had a dollar for every guy that has told me "OH..you would like them if you tried em the way I cook em" I would be a millonaire.Tried them alot of different ways and still don't like them.I prefer to eat walleye,perch and pan fish.

Unfortunately I think there are a high number of individuals that have to keep a fish more for the trophy aspect of it than for the food.Kinda like having to shoot a buck spike four pt. etc. just to say you shot a buck.God only knows how many fish sit in freezers across this state never to be used or get freezer burn.

Really if you think about it they should probably close the season down or make it completely catch and release during the spawning run.I mean after all last I knew Steelhead are considered a sport/game fish and I don't know of another sport/game fish in this state(Bass,Pike,Walleye,Musky)that doesn't have a closed season or some restrictions on them.Just food for thought.


----------



## Fishbone (Oct 10, 2008)

JHO said:


> This whole catch and release or keep them thread is kind of funny.You are by law allowed to keep up to 3 fish,if you want to then do it.Get a little thicker skin and quit worrying about what everyone else says .Personally I choose to keep none.I think they taste average at best and if I had a dollar for every guy that has told me "OH..you would like them if you tried em the way I cook em" I would be a millonaire.Tried them alot of different ways and still don't like them.I prefer to eat walleye,perch and pan fish.
> 
> Unfortunately I think there are a high number of individuals that have to keep a fish more for the trophy aspect of it than for the food.Kinda like having to shoot a buck spike four pt. etc. just to say you shot a buck.God only knows how many fish sit in freezers across this state never to be used or get freezer burn.
> 
> Really if you think about it they should probably close the season down or make it completely catch and release during the spawning run.I mean after all last I knew Steelhead are considered a sport/game fish and I don't know of another sport/game fish in this state(Bass,Pike,Walleye,Musky)that doesn't have a closed season or some restrictions on them.Just food for thought.


At best, Michigan Steelhead make great fish emulsion. I would not even think twice about feeding them to my 4 legged friends......


----------



## Abel (Feb 14, 2003)

I say if you like eating them, take em, it's legal. When I was down there I'd keep em' in the lake all the time. They're not native, they're put there for a reason, and compaired to the fisheries I've been fishing, the Great Lakes by far have the best fishing for salmon there is. I'm up in S.E. Alaska now, your salmon and steelie fishing blows this out of the water. Only thing they have up here is billions of Pinks. Now for the steelhead, if your a puritist that dispises the thought of seeing one dead, this is the place for you. In the steelie systems here, no bait, bait is considered anything with a sent, yes, salted rubber worms,a little anis on the rubber single egg, all bad juju. it was that you could keep 2 a yr over 36", now you can't keep them period. But catching these fish, yes they look the same, fight about the same, but knowing what they go through, and the fact that they don't stock steelies, I can't bring myself to off one. But that's ok, I just got orders to transfer back to TC. See you ladies soon. As far as the snobs turnig their nose at you for killing them, I'd start eating sashimi right there in front of them..


----------



## UltimateOutdoorsman (Sep 13, 2001)

thousandcasts said:


> Hell, I keep some. My eggs don't come from the Easter bunny. I keep a few here and there when I fish and if someone is in my boat and wants to keep some, then rock on. More often than not I practice C&R, but...like I said, I keep some too.


I couldn't agree more.


----------

