# Thoughts on a Shell Gauge for Grouse and Woodcock



## doug1810 (May 29, 2008)

I always ran a 12 guage semi or o/u . I got an 1187 Remmy in 20 a couple years ago love it. I shoot 8-9 lead with a skeet choke.


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## Ray Adams (Feb 17, 2006)

Lamarsh said:


> There was a recent thread on grouse guns. There did not appear to be parameters on the feedback, and everybody sort of piled in with things ranging from a type of gun to the exact make and model they use, and so on. Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, especially since it is always fun to hear about peoples' favorites, but I'd like to narrow that topic a bit and discuss everybody's preferred shell. I have my own thoughts, but I would mainly like to hear some experienced grouse hunters ideas on the subject, such that it might help me make up my mind on my next shotgun purchase.
> 
> I'm currently using what I have, which is a Benelli SBE2 (a bulky 12 gauge auto designed for waterfowl hunting and paddling small boats). I do notice plenty of veteran grouse hunters favor a 12 gauge; however, upon deeper investigation, many of those guys simply favor the particular gun more often than the 12 gauge shell itself for the grouse woods. The general consensus appears to lay with the 20 and the 28 as an exclusive go-to gun in the grouse woods, and I've heard a few tout the 16 as well. But I'd love to hear anybody's reasons if they favor the 12 gauge as a shell and not because of the specific gun.
> 
> ...



Each gauge has its "sweet spot" regarding efficient delivery of payload. All things being equal, that's 1 1/8 oz for a 12 gauge, 1 oz. for a 16, 7/8 oz. for a 20, and 3/4 oz. for a 28. Yes, you can pack 1 1/8 oz. in a 20 gauge, but patterns inevitably suffer because with all the shot crammed into that narrow bore. 

If you're looking to shoot magnum #5's at wild pheasants, the 12 gauge is your BFF; if you want to shoot #8's or #9's at grouse and woodcock in Michigan, reach for a 28, 20, or 16 - or down-load a 12 gauge with light loads. Either way, I go with the lightest load that'll do the job efficiently.

Michigan upland hunters walk a lot and shoot a little. That means a light gun, but also one that's balanced. Too many supposed "upland sweeties" are short-barreled, choppy aberrations that are as easy to stop swinging as they are to start. Balance is what you're looking for, regardless of weight. 

If you're going to shoot a 28 or 16, it pays to load the shells yourself. I save about $8 per box on 28's and $5 per box on 16's. It all adds up. Aside from economics, as Hal wisely mentioned, there's pride in assembling loads to your liking. If you prefer a 12 or 20, you could roll your own shells to customize loads, but you probably won't save much money. 

Lastly, as much as I revere the 28 for grouse and woodcock, I feel it makes a poor gauge for tough, wild pheasants. When I hunt pheasants I reach for plated #5's. How many of those fit in 3/4 ounce? Not many. 

A place for everything, and everything in its place, as they say. 



Ray


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## Ray Adams (Feb 17, 2006)

Lamarsh said:


> There was a recent thread on grouse guns. There did not appear to be parameters on the feedback, and everybody sort of piled in with things ranging from a type of gun to the exact make and model they use, and so on. Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, especially since it is always fun to hear about peoples' favorites, but I'd like to narrow that topic a bit and discuss everybody's preferred shell. I have my own thoughts, but I would mainly like to hear some experienced grouse hunters ideas on the subject, such that it might help me make up my mind on my next shotgun purchase.
> 
> I'm currently using what I have, which is a Benelli SBE2 (a bulky 12 gauge auto designed for waterfowl hunting and paddling small boats). I do notice plenty of veteran grouse hunters favor a 12 gauge; however, upon deeper investigation, many of those guys simply favor the particular gun more often than the 12 gauge shell itself for the grouse woods. The general consensus appears to lay with the 20 and the 28 as an exclusive go-to gun in the grouse woods, and I've heard a few tout the 16 as well. But I'd love to hear anybody's reasons if they favor the 12 gauge as a shell and not because of the specific gun.
> 
> ...


Each gauge has its "sweet spot" regarding efficient delivery of payload. All things being equal, that's 1 1/8 oz for a 12 gauge, 1 oz. for a 16, 7/8 oz. for a 20, and 3/4 oz. for a 28. Yes, you can pack 1 1/8 oz. in a 20 gauge, but patterns inevitably suffer because with all the shot crammed into that narrow bore. 

If you're looking to shoot magnum #5's at wild pheasants, the 12 gauge is your BFF; if you want to shoot #8's or #9's at grouse and woodcock in Michigan, reach for a 28, 20, or 16 - or down-load a 12 gauge with light loads. Either way, I go with the lightest load that'll do the job efficiently.

Michigan upland hunters walk a lot and shoot a little. That means a light gun, but also one that's balanced. Too many supposed "upland sweeties" are short-barreled, choppy aberrations that are as easy to stop swinging as they are to start. Balance is what you're looking for, regardless of weight. 

If you're going to shoot a 28 or 16, it pays to load the shells yourself. I save about $8 per box on 28's and $5 per box on 16's. It all adds up. Aside from economics, as Hal wisely mentioned, there's pride in assembling loads to your liking. If you prefer a 12 or 20, you could roll your own shells to customize loads, but you probably won't save much money. 

Lastly, as much as I revere the 28 for grouse and woodcock, I feel it makes a poor gauge for tough, wild pheasants. When I hunt pheasants I reach for plated #5's. How many of those fit in 3/4 ounce? Not many. 

A place for everything, and everything in its place, as they say. 



Ray


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

FWIW - I buy my shells periodically, only on sale, and then multiple cases at a time. I can find 28g shells from $7.50/box and up. If you look around, you don't have to spend a whole lot more on good quality 28g shells vs the other gauges.


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## gilgetter (Feb 28, 2006)

If the weight of the gun is a concern, golf could be a better option.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

I have killed XXX's grouse and XXX's ducks with a 20 gauge grouse I use 7.5 at 1250 per foot. Ducks I use #2's . 
But I have killed just as many using 12 gauge in the same shot size. It is the Indian not the arrow


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

Lamarsh said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I'm always surprised to hear how often people are using 12s.
> 
> I did forget to mention what I use in my 12, which is mostly 2.75" 1 1/8oz #7.5. If I'm grouse hunting during waterfowl season and think I will encounter some waterfowl, I carry 2.75" 1oz #5 steel. If I had my druthers and money wasn't an issue, I'd shoot nothing but 2.75" 1 1/8oz #6 tungsten matrix for just about everything.


I'm not sure if I'm reading your post right or not. I was always under the impression it's against the law to have any lead shot on you while waterfowl hunting?


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

augustus0603 said:


> I'm not sure if I'm reading your post right or not. I was always under the impression it's against the law to have any lead shot on you while waterfowl hunting?


I don't think you were reading it right, I said "If I'm grouse hunting during waterfowl season and think I will encounter some waterfowl, I carry 2.75" 1oz #*5 steel*. If I had my druthers and money wasn't an issue, I'd shoot nothing but 2.75" 1 1/8oz *#6 tungsten matrix* for just about everything." 

Whole point was that you cannot carry any lead, like you mentioned, so I use #5 steel for grouse when that happens, but if I had the dough I'd just carry tungsten matrix, but at $3/shell it's not happening right now with my so-so wing shooting skills.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Lamarsh said:


> I don't think you were reading it right, I said "If I'm grouse hunting during waterfowl season and think I will encounter some waterfowl, I carry 2.75" 1oz #*5 steel*. If I had my druthers and money wasn't an issue, I'd shoot nothing but 2.75" 1 1/8oz *#6 tungsten matrix* for just about everything."
> 
> Whole point was that you cannot carry any lead, like you mentioned, so I use #5 steel for grouse when that happens, but if I had the dough I'd just carry tungsten matrix, but at $3/shell it's not happening right now with my so-so wing shooting skills.


Have you tested 2.75" 1oz #*5 steel *on a pattern board at say 15-20 yrds? This distance 15-20 yds would be good grouse and woodcock distances. 20 yards is like the distance from home plate to the pitchers mound


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## upnut (Aug 31, 2004)

Twenty gauge is plenty for grouse and woodcock, let the pattern board tell you what your gun likes. If the field results back it up, you're golden. When I feel the need for speed, Winchester AA Super Sport sporting clay ammo fills the bill. If a lighter gun keeps me in the field, I'm all in....YMMV

Scott B.


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

Lamarsh said:


> I don't think you were reading it right, I said "If I'm grouse hunting during waterfowl season and think I will encounter some waterfowl, I carry 2.75" 1oz #*5 steel*. If I had my druthers and money wasn't an issue, I'd shoot nothing but 2.75" 1 1/8oz *#6 tungsten matrix* for just about everything."
> 
> Whole point was that you cannot carry any lead, like you mentioned, so I use #5 steel for grouse when that happens, but if I had the dough I'd just carry tungsten matrix, but at $3/shell it's not happening right now with my so-so wing shooting skills.


My bad. I didn't think I was reading it right. I'm mad I didn't duck hunt this year. We just bought a place that backs up to the Dead Stream Swamp and there is a small water hole on the NW part of our 20 acres. Every time I sneak out there since the season started it's been loaded with ducks. There is no real way to access it from State Land so they've been safe out there all year long. It might be a problem if I knocked one down though. I would have to have a canoe handy. I don't know if I would send a lab into that muck.


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## TimBuckTwo (Jan 3, 2009)

Patterned my 12 gauge while in the UP last weekend, was my first time ever patterning a shotgun. Learned a ton. First off, my effective kill range (5 or 6 shots within a 5" black circle) with skeet and IC was much longer than I originally thought. Using IC at 35 yards isn't a stretch at all really, I thought I wouldn't be that effective at those distances, for whatever reason. 

Second, with an IC choke at 40 yards, I put more pellets in the kill zone with #6's than with #7.5's. #6's put upward of 10 shot in the kill zone, while #7.5's put maybe 4 or 5 shot in the kill zone at the same distance.

Third, I'm done with high brass. The concussive force isn't worth it to me, especially since I usually don't wear ear protection in the grouse woods. The patterns were the same as low brass, maybe not as fast to get there, but I'll make that trade off.

All said and done, my range is much longer than I thought with more open chokes. I'm going to start loading #7.5's for my first shell, and #6's for my second. Lastly, I'm done with high brass. Glad I decided to try patterning.


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## Ray Adams (Feb 17, 2006)

TimBuckTwo said:


> Patterned my 12 gauge while in the UP last weekend, was my first time ever patterning a shotgun. Learned a ton. First off, my effective kill range (5 or 6 shots within a 5" black circle) with skeet and IC was much longer than I originally thought. Using IC at 35 yards isn't a stretch at all really, I thought I wouldn't be that effective at those distances, for whatever reason.
> 
> Second, with an IC choke at 40 yards, I put more pellets in the kill zone with #6's than with #7.5's. #6's put upward of 10 shot in the kill zone, while #7.5's put maybe 4 or 5 shot in the kill zone at the same distance.
> 
> ...


It's an eye opener, isn't it?

Strangely enough, you'll even find notable differences between different brands of shells loaded with the same shot size.


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

Bigger size shot like 6s will pattern tighter than smaller shot. So will a slower shell, which is fine in the woods. You don't need high brass to hunt grouse and wc. IC at 40 yds will give you a lot more cripples.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

TimBuckTwo said:


> Patterned my 12 gauge while in the UP last weekend, was my first time ever patterning a shotgun. Learned a ton. First off, my effective kill range (5 or 6 shots within a 5" black circle) with skeet and IC was much longer than I originally thought. Using IC at 35 yards isn't a stretch at all really, I thought I wouldn't be that effective at those distances, for whatever reason.
> 
> Second, with an IC choke at 40 yards, I put more pellets in the kill zone with #6's than with #7.5's. #6's put upward of 10 shot in the kill zone, while #7.5's put maybe 4 or 5 shot in the kill zone at the same distance.
> 
> ...


I'm of the opinion that a patterning project should be a sort of all or nothing kind of thing--do it all out or don't bother. Done correctly, it's a big time commitment. That said, since I haven't patterned my two year old 12 gauge yet, I simply buy a new brand of shells every time I stock up, and save 3 shells from each box, for an eventual patterning project. I have a grocery bag full of boxes with 3 shells in them, lots of diversity. Gonna put all the info on a spreadsheet one day for comparison. One day. My luck, by the time I do it, half the shells I saved will be out of production lol.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Other than curiousity, what benefit will your project bring you?
If all your birds are fringed, it's probably not the loads fault.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

Gamekeeper said:


> Other than curiousity, what benefit will your project bring you?
> If all your birds are fringed, it's probably not the loads fault.


Just a general patterning of my shotgun. I would do it when I have a full day to go deal with setting tons of paper up, etc. I also wanted to wait until I have the choke I will keep on my gun for waterfowl indefinitely (right now I'm just using the factory chokes). Everybody talks about how important patterning your shotgun is, and I've never done it.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I admire good science. A day at the plate counting holes is a useful benefit.
Sometimes people find out things that surprise them.

On one of my pumps, cheap Expert's give great patterns for ducks over decoys. Yet, on a field gun I shoot, BC's are too tight. 

In the grouse woods, it hardly matters, other than confidence level.
With your dog, depending on how steady you make it, you may want a tighter pattern.
Labs are often near enough the flush to get hit by ricochets, and wide patterns.


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## TimBuckTwo (Jan 3, 2009)

My FIL initially scoffed when I said I was going to spend the morning patterning. After a few newspapers were up he decided to give it a try.

A few years ago he crafted a really nice butt stock extension out of walnut to increase his length of pull. We are both tall guys, with him bring 6'4". It added probably 1.5"-2" to the butt stock. At any distance over 20 yards he was high and right of the kill zone, drastically. Center of the pattern was probably 10" off center. Pulled the extension off and things were much much better. "No wonder why I have been missing all those birds..." lol


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## Buckbaker (Aug 3, 2015)

I think if you miss birds patterning is more important. When I shoot I tend to know if it's a miss or a hit before the bird drops or not. Even if I lose sight of the bird after the shot, if I think I was on the bird, I search diligently. And on my many misses, I know it was me and not the gun.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

This video examines chokes at various distances. Same gun IC and Mod chokes. Will also demonstrate how to go through the patterning process. Counting holes is not essential all you are looking for consistence performance between your gun and ammunition being used. Change the gun or change the ammo the pattern board results will change as well.

*quote * "Center of the pattern was probably 10" off center. Pulled the extension off and things were much much better. "No wonder why I have been missing all those birds..." lol

Point of Impact board work is a completely different use of the pattern board. and IMHO much more important...Does my gun shoot where I look?


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## TimBuckTwo (Jan 3, 2009)

A cheap way to pattern rather than cardboard and colored paper is just paint a 5" black circle on unfolded newspaper. We close pinned that to a couple branches and off we went.


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## Timber (Jan 1, 2009)

gundogguy said:


> This video examines chokes at various distances. Same gun IC and Mod chokes. Will also demonstrate how to go through the patterning process. Counting holes is not essential all you are looking for consistence performance between your gun and ammunition being used. Change the gun or change the ammo the pattern board results will change as well.
> 
> *quote * "Center of the pattern was probably 10" off center. Pulled the extension off and things were much much better. "No wonder why I have been missing all those birds..." lol
> 
> Point of Impact board work is a completely different use of the pattern board. and IMHO much more important...Does my gun shoot where I look?


Really liked that second video thanks for sharing


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## Gnoyes (Jan 23, 2013)

Gamekeeper said:


> I admire good science. A day at the plate counting holes is a useful benefit.
> Sometimes people find out things that surprise them.
> 
> On one of my pumps, cheap Expert's give great patterns for ducks over decoys. Yet, on a field gun I shoot, BC's are too tight.
> ...


Has anyone on here ever hit their dog with stray shot? 

I'm pretty sure I would hang up my gun, or at least do some serious soul searching. I'll always pass on low birds that aren't crossing in front of me, away from the dog. If you're shooting so close to the dog he's picking up shot, you're basically shooting at your dog. I don't care how your gun is choked.


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

About hitting your dog, I was speaking with a local semi retired vet that hunts. He said it is very common for an upland dog to have a pellet or two in their skin. Said he sees them when doing X-rays. It is similar to us humans having lead from a pencil embedded in our skin.


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## Buckbaker (Aug 3, 2015)

Gnoyes said:


> Has anyone on here ever hit their dog with stray shot?
> 
> I'm pretty sure I would hang up my gun, or at least do some serious soul searching. I'll always pass on low birds that aren't crossing in front of me, away from the dog. If you're shooting so close to the dog he's picking up shot, you're basically shooting at your dog. I don't care how your gun is choked.


Shooting your dog, hunting partner, truck, someones house....all the same. Make sure you know what your barrel is pointed at before hitting that trigger.


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## Buckbaker (Aug 3, 2015)

NbyNW said:


> About hitting your dog, I was speaking with a local semi retired vet that hunts. He said it is very common for an upland dog to have a pellet or two in their skin. Said he sees them when doing X-rays. It is similar to us humans having lead from a pencil embedded in our skin.


It might be common for people to hit their dog, but I don't want to hunt with them.


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## NbyNW (Jun 30, 2012)

The point I am making, is that even good, safe hunters shooting traditional loads have the potential for stray pellets.


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## Buckbaker (Aug 3, 2015)

NbyNW said:


> The point I am making, is that even good, safe hunters shooting traditional loads have the potential for stray pellets.


Stray pellets are a fact of life. Even more of a reason to watch where you shoot. No bird is worth hitting your dog, buddy, or whatever.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

NbyNW said:


> About hitting your dog, I was speaking with a local semi retired vet that hunts. He said it is very common for an upland dog to have a pellet or two in their skin. Said he sees them when doing X-rays. It is similar to us humans having lead from a pencil embedded in our skin.


You betcha! You Betcha! You betcha!
It's a sad day, and a very surprising day, when they hand you those x-rays. Cause a dog can't tell you when it got shot.

And It may come as a surprise to the same people to find out people get hit by pellets on the skeet field at 1,7, and 8, regularly. Steel shot, due to it's incompressability is notorious for ricochets. They won't even let you pattern it on our patterning plate at my gun club. 

A lab digs a grouse out from under a grape tangle, and there's plenty of opportunity for a ricochet. Same dog digs a pheasant up out of a ditch, and when the bird clears the banks, people start shooting. The dog is 5 feet below the bird.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Gnoyes said:


> *Has anyone on here ever hit their dog with stray shot? *
> 
> .


H3LL, I have been hit with flyers out the pattern. Grouse and Woodcock hunting and guiding on the preserve. Bounced off me chaps both times. In each case the shot taken was a safe and proper shot. Have even taken a shot that ringed a trap target and came back and bounced off my vest. always wear shooting glasses when you are anywhere with a shotgun and plan on shooting.


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