# Timber theft



## carpetbagger (Jun 12, 2015)

Made a rare winter trip to the cabin and discovered someone had been cutting wood on my land.

Just curious as to how prevalent this is, if its happened to any members and how you dealt with it.

I don't burn wood, and would gladly let someone have my downed trees, but they need to ask first.

Petty or not?


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## Drake (Dec 29, 2000)

carpetbagger said:


> Made a rare winter trip to the cabin and discovered someone had been cutting wood on my land.
> 
> Just curious as to how prevalent this is, if its happened to any members and how you dealt with it.
> 
> ...


Dead trees , Live trees !
Theft is theft it's a crime !
If they ask first and you say yes - OK ! 
If your property remote , I wish I had a answer . If you have neighbors maybe you could talk to them to help keep an eye on your place ! 


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

carpetbagger said:


> Made a rare winter trip to the cabin and discovered someone had been cutting wood on my land.
> 
> ........


Tracks lead out to a main road ? Did you put up new no trespassing signs ?

L & O


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## carpetbagger (Jun 12, 2015)

It snowed since the trees were cut so no tracks, but both are on the same boundary line.

That particular neighbor seemed like a decent guy - but has yet to return my call.

Keep a good neighbor and say nothing as I don't burn wood, or nip it as it will lead to more serious violations but possibly jeopardize an otherwise good neighbor relationship?


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## Drake (Dec 29, 2000)

Understood !
But if you don't try to find out it may lead to more serious violations

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## Stillkickin (Jan 7, 2018)

Had a similar incident on my property, called the sheriffs office and they did a routine check of neighbors. 

No one admitted anything but haven’t had an issue since.


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## Jiw275 (Jan 1, 2015)

carpetbagger said:


> Made a rare winter trip to the cabin and discovered someone had been cutting wood on my land.
> 
> Just curious as to how prevalent this is, if its happened to any members and how you dealt with it.
> 
> ...


An Aunt of a good friend took a lumber rustler to civil court. The man that stole the trees found that the price for oak veneer was quite high.

The court ordered the thief to make her whole.


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## cmonkey (Nov 6, 2004)

We had a neighbor adjacent our property who I think had no idea of property lines, and hired two bubbas to just "go back there" and cut wood. I discovered it, and where the tracks led, and confronted her. She spit, hissed, moaned and fussed, but in the end paid the bubbas to deliver all the cut and split wood to my home, in exchange to stay out of court.

Never saw her again, but I'm sure she thinks I was at fault. They had to drive through a FENCE to get to my woods for cryin out loud. Lots of stupid out there.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

If it's right on the property line and the trees were dead I would ( no pun) probably cut the guy some slack if he was heating his own house with it. But it he was selling it, that would be another story. I would talk to him face to face and find out.


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

I would drive to his house and talk with him and just ask him if he has seen any one cutting wood on you're property and that you would appreciate him keeping an eye out for you and how much you would appreciate a phone call if he see's anything suspicious!



carpetbagger said:


> Made a rare winter trip to the cabin and discovered someone had been cutting wood on my land.
> 
> Just curious as to how prevalent this is, if its happened to any members and how you dealt with it.
> 
> ...


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

Jiw275 said:


> An Aunt of a good friend took a lumber rustler to civil court. The man that stole the trees found that the price for oak veneer was quite high.
> 
> The court ordered the thief to make her whole.


In Michigan they must pay treble damages for tree theft .


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Thirty pointer said:


> In Michigan they must pay treble damages for tree theft .


It is called timber trespass. 

I had to threaten Wolverine Power with timber trespass when they got off of their easement and cut a big double red oak. One side they could have legally cut as it leaned toward their line from just out side of the easement. Instead of just cutting that side they cut the whole tree and fell it way out side the easement damaging a lot of smaller timber.
Since that happened I have had a lot of trouble with them. I think that they are trying to get even with me because of their screw up. 
I am sure when they come through this year trimming they will take down the screen where the line crosses the road. It is their to keep poachers from shooting down the easement as their are houses on the other end. I have had a gentlemen's agreement over the years that it could stay. Trees Inc has kept the screen topped the last few times they trimmed the line. 
A few years ago I caught a guy cutting up some pine trees that the local power company had taken down along the road. Luckily we had already cut up the hardwood they had taken down or he would have taken that also. He gave me a bunch of grief saying I was not going to use it. All he had to do was ask and he could have had it. Down the road I should have called the sheriff as I am sure it was him that took some downed aspen on my property.


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## Duckiller (Mar 26, 2010)

Who ever cut it is probably the great-great grand son of a Michigan timber barron. They all stole timber. Was told this in College by the grand son of one. They called it cutting around 40 acres. They cut their 40 acres last. My great grand father may have cut a lot of Michigan timber. No one left in the family to tell me.


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

The treble damages was to discourage loggers from wandering over property lines and taking a few extras or making careless measurements on their cuts .


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

I have some old maps that show a lot of our Federal lands were at one time owned by big timber companies. I think that they lost them during the Depression so they ended up in the possession of the Feds.

I saw a journal from one of the lumber barons a few years ago. It showed just how crocked that one was.


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## Charles Hooke (Dec 29, 2018)

Stealing trees of all types is quite prevalent in Michigan an elsewhere. Owners often don't know the value of their timber. A fine veneer log can bring $3,000 a log depending on the specie. Firewood is always valuable. But firewood thieves often don't discriminate as to the tree they take. They will take a very valuable tree and skid it out because it seems easier than picking up dead wood. Or they think that will burn better when aged. Sometimes just no logic at all one can discern. They will steal young fruit trees one has planted.

One guy out our way uses snowmobiles to steal and skid out cedar trees of any property that is not watched. He is a convicted felon. But no one has been able to prove he was the one stealing these cedar trees. Neighbors up here don't report these guys because they get even quickly. 

Actual timber men have stolen portions of the timber they cut. Typical trick is to under report their harvest and take the timber to the Amish or others. Amish for some reason are an outlet with less recorded documents I guess. The last timber we lost went to the Amish. We caught it almost by accident. 

We make a practice of prosecuting each and every one of them to discourage stupidity and greed. If you give people a pass on this you encourage the behavior. We do allow good neighbors to come in a glean downed windfall and the dead wood. These are the guys that keep and eye out for us and report issues to us.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Thirty pointer said:


> In Michigan they must pay treble damages for tree theft .


Not necessarily. If it goes to court it depends a lot on whether a landowner can prove the trespass was deliberate. If a property line is not clearly delineated deliberate trespass can be difficult to prove, don't count on an old fence since so many old fence lines in this state are not on property lines. Even a mediocre attorney could get a cutter off if a landowner insisted an old fence was the line but had nothing to back that up. Then there is the judge factor. What is accepted as evidence of deliberate trespass in one county might not be in the county next door. 
Two cases that would seem to be open and shut come quickly to mind. In both cases a logger started from a know corner and ran his own cutting line. In both instances the lines were quite straight but also in both cases the wrong declination was used, they were both several degrees off. Since each logger had made a reasonable effort to do the right thing the judges merely required them to pay single stumpage. After the landowners paid to determine what was taken they didn't make much. It was a hollow victory.

If you own land, consider forgoing that new toy for a while and get a survey instead. When the survey is complete mark the boundaries with something reasonably PERMANENT, such as T-bars or fiberglass posts and be sure to check them every year or two. Having lines and maintaining clear evidence of same has saved many a dispute between neighbors and allowed for much simpler prosecution should the need arise. FM


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

My next door neighbor has had his property surveyed 3 different times because he didn't believe the previous survey. When he bought the piece of land he swore the seller said the property went over to the Two track to the east of her. Well that's my property, I caught him walking around back there trying to figure out where to put a stand. We had a friendly discussion about it, but he still believed the old seller. So he had it surveyed, then 2 more times after that . The weird thing is every time it was surveyed there was a different " line". It varied something like 10 -15 ft.


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Shortly after I bought my property in 1969 the property north of mine was surveyed the old way with transits and chains. The surveyor told me that the fence line on mine was off quite a ways so I owned more land than I thought I did.

About 10 years ago the property on the east side was surveyed with GPS. I heard that the surveyor kept saying that things were not coming out right. He sat his stake 4 foot 7 inches past the one set back in the early 70's. I have a friend that is a partner in a big surveying company in Grand Rapids. I asked him about GPS surveying. He said they never survey with GPS as it is never accurate.
One thing I always do with any survey marker on my properties is I put two stakes, out of sight, at a set distance, like10 feet, from the original stake incase some thing happens to the original stake. Using geometry an arc from each of those two stakes will intercept at the location of the original stake.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

stickbow shooter said:


> My next door neighbor has had his property surveyed 3 different times because he didn't believe the previous survey. When he bought the piece of land he swore the seller said the property went over to the Two track to the east of her. Well that's my property, I caught him walking around back there trying to figure out where to put a stand. We had a friendly discussion about it, but he still believed the old seller. So he had it surveyed, then 2 more times after that . The weird thing is every time it was surveyed there was a different " line". It varied something like 10 -15 ft.


Sounds like he needs a real surveyor. The only one I have seen that far off was the MDNR. My Surveyor friend dealt with that.


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

Duckiller said:


> Who ever cut it is probably the great-great grand son of a Michigan timber barron. They all stole timber. Was told this in College by the grand son of one. They called it cutting around 40 acres. They cut their 40 acres last. My great grand father may have cut a lot of Michigan timber. No one left in the family to tell me.


The old "Round Fourty"

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## carpetbagger (Jun 12, 2015)

mal said:


> Moral of the story, when you are an out of town landowner, just assume that in the minds of the local degenerates, what's yours is theirs because if they have nothing then they have nothing to lose...and if there is a scintilla of a chance that they can pull one over on you, then they probably will try.


Your quote hits it out of the park!

The tree were still there yesterday half way bucked,

Probably because he cant get a trailer back there in 6" of snow.


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## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

Up here in the north country, timber is a wildcat industry. Plenty of shady characters, breached contracts, and outright thievery. If you don't know what you're doing, or know the right people, you will get taken for a ride.


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## Martin Looker (Jul 16, 2015)

Why would you call the locals degenerates? We have lots of landowners in our township who don't live here but we don't rip them off and I don't know any of them who are degenerates.


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## mal (Feb 18, 2002)

Martin Looker said:


> Why would you call the locals degenerates? We have lots of landowners in our township who don't live here but we don't rip them off and I don't know any of them who are degenerates.


Sorry it was poorly worded...I'm not calling all locals degenerates just the ones who steal.


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## TriggerDiscipline (Sep 25, 2017)

mal said:


> Sorry it was poorly worded...I'm not calling all locals degenerates just the ones who steal.


To be fair, there are a lot of them.


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## Bucket-Back (Feb 8, 2004)

multibeard said:


> Shortly after I bought my property in 1969 the property north of mine was surveyed the old way with transits and chains. The surveyor told me that the fence line on mine was off quite a ways so I owned more land than I thought I did.
> 
> About 10 years ago the property on the east side was surveyed with GPS. I heard that the surveyor kept saying that things were not coming out right. He sat his stake 4 foot 7 inches past the one set back in the early 70's. I have a friend that is a partner in a big surveying company in Grand Rapids. I asked him about GPS surveying. He said they never survey with GPS as it is never accurate.
> One thing I always do with any survey marker on my properties is I put two stakes, out of sight, at a set distance, like10 feet, from the original stake incase some thing happens to the original stake. Using geometry an arc from each of those two stakes will intercept at the location of the original stake.


Had the same issues here the same year. Next door neighbor, a "Russian" Doctor who spoke fluent German and broken English didn't like the survey stake location, so he'd move it. Then my Father would move it back.

The 3rd survey, the stakes were put in cement.


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