# QDM or not... would the DNR be interested in this???



## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Adam Waszak said:


> so do not compare me to the farmer who shoots 50 of them and bulldozes them under


Could you please expand on that or was it just a figure of speech. :yikes:


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

I believe what Adam was getting at is kinda my belief as well.

Hunters hate deer with a passion and they have no use for them. I hear farmers all the time talking about how they just go out and shoot as many of them as they can. Thing is they just leave em out there to rot or bulldoze em under.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

GVDocHoliday said:


> I believe what Adam was getting at is kinda my belief as well.
> 
> Hunters hate deer with a passion and they have no use for them. I hear farmers all the time talking about how they just go out and shoot as many of them as they can. Thing is they just leave em out there to rot or bulldoze em under.


I'm wondering Doc, if you hear that all the time do you take any type of action to prevent it? If you hear it all the time you must hear it from some that say it themselves or is this rumor too?


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Urban legend in the extreme.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Wildcoy, I apologize. I should not have jumped on you but to suggest that my hunting habits are runing the deer herd makes me a little angry. As said I never shot 5 or 6 doe's off of a piece of property that was only a few acres in size. And I do sympathise with those who live next to a lot of properties where it is "brown it is down" mentality. I am fortunate enough to hunt private property and I do not take that for granted ever! I would never shoot what I thought wa too many deer off of the property that I hunt because I love to see deer and I love to hunt them so again if I jumped on you a little early sorry. 

Farmlegend, I hope you are right because I heard there was a guy in Ithaca that really gunned em down a few years back when it was unlimited. What that means I don't know but the number grows evertime I hear it so maybe you are right.

I don't know how to solve the BB issue either. I hav taken over 30 deer in 17 years of huning and 2 years ago I screwed up major and downed a BB. I felt sick when I walked up to it and I obviously misjudged the yardage. We fine mmbers of our deer camp now if they shoot a BB. But at least in our camp people are more careful all of the time because it is not th fine that will get you it is the constant harrassment that doesn't quit when the season ends. It has been addressed before that we need education but so many people only gun hunt and that is not a slam on gun hunters but there are more that just don't scout, don't sight in, don't buy lic till the 14th etc. How can we expect them t have any idea what a BB is? Heck I had a friend that shot his first deer and said he was so excited he got a nice doe! This is after ge gutted it! We had a talk and since he has yet to repeat the mistake. I think we on this board are far more educated than the average sportsman an I am very good at telling if it is a BB but I can't tell you past that how old a deer is and I have seen tons of deer. Identifying age of deer should be touched on in hnter safety class IMO

AW


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

From my experiences, hunters are far too concerned about over-harvesting does. Unless you are hunting wide-open agricultural land, it is harder than you would think to _biologically_ shoot too many does. Shoot them until you don't see many? Yes, but that doesn't mean there aren't any does around. Does react very quickly to increased harvest pressure by turning nocturnal.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

BSK said:


> From my experiences, hunters are far too concerned about over-harvesting does. Unless you are hunting wide-open agricultural land, it is harder than you would think to _biologically_ shoot too many does. Shoot them until you don't see many? Yes, but that doesn't mean there aren't any does around. Does react very quickly to increased harvest pressure by turning nocturnal.



bsk - what do you qualify as 'wide open' agricultural land? for example, the section that i hunt in (640 acres) is probably a maximum of 10% wooded. there are fencerows that you could add to that, but they won't account for much space.. our farm is 120 acres, the next farm is 120. our farm has fencerows, the next farm has 0 trees on it - its 120 acres of agricultural land.
i fully believe that we could easily wipe out the deer that we see on this type of property. what do you think?


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

rzdrmh,

You bet. You could knock a deer herd down fast in that type of situation. Open lands (<10% forested) are the only situation we have seen where hunters can truly and easily impact the deer density. Up to 50% forested, you can knock them down some but certainly nowhere near out. Above 50% forested, you will have a tough time controlling herd density, let alone knocking it down.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

that's very good information to know about doe harvests.. fortunately, we're conservative.

just to quantify that - when you refer to % wooded, are you referring to a land area at least as large as a section? so if my section was > 50% wooded, it would be difficult to significantly affect the density?


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Correct. Just remember to look at all the surrounding habitat. A given property may have no woods, but if there is a substantial block of woods a half mile away, the deer have a refuge to hide in during daylight (deer will frequently walk more than a mile to feed at night).


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Remember also, within the context of this discussion, the term "woods" is broadly "cover". You can hide a lot of deer in non-wooded "cover" (old fields, dogwood/willow thickets, warm-season grasses, marshes, swamps, fens, shrub-covered hillsides, etc.), that may not ordinarily be called "woods". 

In much of the farm country habitat with which I am most familiar, deer are more likely to locate their bedding areas in non-wooded cover than they are woodlots.


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## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

To tag or not tag a button buck has been a hot issue for a long time. The impact either way is probably more of a mindset issue, which can be important but difficult to evaluate.

You could require a button buck to be tagged with a buck tag without penalizing the hunter (other than making the hunter use a buck tag and if they don't have a buck tag, then use an antlerless tag). 

The MDNR has somewhat of an in between system, whereby if you shoot a button buck, you can choose to use a buck tag.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

farmlegend,

Good point. "Quantifying" the value--to deer--of different cover is difficult. Deer can "hide" from hunters in any woods, but there are many gradations of "woods." How old is the timber? How much undergrowth is there? A mature, open-understory woods produces less cover than a good stand of warm-season grasses, yet grasses can be seen into from an elevated position (an adjoining higher terrain location).

I forgot to add grasses as cover in my previous posts. They certainly are used extemsively by deer in the Midwest, especially the western Midwest.

When conducting Geographic Information System (GIS) studies of habitat and deer usage, everything must be converted to numerical quantities (for use in numeric calculations). Developing a numeric "scale" for cover quality has been extremely frustrating. Currently, I'm using a scale roughly based on visibility within the habitat from a deer's-eye view. But there are so many other factors to consider, including not just the "visual break" of the habitat. Does it also provide a thermal break in winter? A precipitation break? A wind break? It gets complicated.


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## newk8 (Jul 28, 2004)

I tuned into this thread due to the nature of the post on liscense ideas. Here is an idea. ONe buck tag ( good only for bucks) to be used however the hunter wants to use it. If he wants to shoot a 8 point, then he can wait for that buck, if he would rather use it on a spike or 4 then that is fine as well. But one buck tag and only one. One for all three seasons. Not one for each. Also one doe tag, not unlimited. This might eliminate some of the problems QDM has faced and allows hunters to freedom to choose. Some hunters will still shoot more than one buck, claiming their wife or daughter shot a buck while shoping. But you may never be able to prevent this anyways. I like the idea of the trophy tag, or young buck tag and no more tagging buttons with doe tags. great idea!


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

newk; I like your ideas, but you'll find that in many areas, only allowing for 1 doe tag per hunter may not even come close to the number of does that need to be harvested.

We shot 10 does and 2 bucks off 160 acres last year, and it's appearent this year that we under-harvested the does.

As my friend says "every time we shot one; three more came to the funeral".


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

*As my friend says "every time we shot one; three more came to the funeral".*

That's hilarious! I'm going to remember that one!

Letmgro, I have a talk on deer management today (actually two). Can I use your line?


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## newk8 (Jul 28, 2004)

Letmgrow, great quote, and I agree, one doe tag may not be enough, some hunters still will not shoot a doe either. Thier morals are against it. Maybe we should have to shoot a doe before we get a buck tag. 

Some thing needs to be done. If we continue to do things the same way year in and year out we will continue to get the same results. 

Just got done planting four food plots with Tecomate seed. Had great success with it last year!! It is amazing what some qulaity food plots will do for a piece of property. And now QDM is gone in our area, oh well I will feed them for some one else and duck on opening day as the war starts. Also lined my blind with armor, feel a little safer now!:yikes:


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## Ed Michrina (Dec 25, 2002)

Well now we have the youth hunt (bs IMO) and late seasons and early seasons. Heck lets keep those deer harrassed all year and start a Union workers hunt- other than caucasian hunt- family over 3 hunt over 4 hunt and over 5 hunt. And a special night hunt for guys that havent shot a deer or filled there tag'sss in 3 years or more. 

We don't have enough deer to feed everyone 365 days (that's why we have cows) IMO 6-8 or ten tags filled is market hunting. I enjoy deer hunting and love to eat venison. I just feel per family 2 - 3 or even 4 deer is enough to enjoy our resource that I feel some are decimating. 

I like some of the ideas above but rasing the $$ of deer tags isn't going to fix anything except to restrict some young or less priviliged hunters. I have no great answer-- I hope the professionals, who are paid by us do-- If it was up to me I would set a oct. 1 to dec 31 deer season with 3 tag max per person. with a bow hunt in oct- Gun in Nov- and gun/bow/powder in dec. any sex, 3 deer. that is, unless any of you dad's want to try out your new scoped in 30-06 in late summer? then heck buy your kid a license,socout for him, set up a blind , shoulder his rifel with the rest you made and let him pull the trigger. boom another sept. deer dead ... Something not right killing a deer in his summer coat. JMO sry if I strayed from the thread. NOW back the the orignal thread.


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

if i recall correctly back in the late 80s and early 90's we were allowed alot more deer if you hunted all the season two during bow one being allowed a doe or small buck, the second was a restricted buck than gun had two buck lic. plus doe permits if you got one so that was 5 deer a year per hunter tha system did not work. yes in areas he dnr has work to do in gettin e heard down to size. and other areas they need to look at the economy and see what damage they have done to mom and pop. the tb zone has been hit hard. you don't see the hunters you were used to seeing. and i don't blame them for not comming up north anymore in his area hey are less likley to see a deer so why go ake hat money and get a least. now souhern michigan has its own problem deer are pets. mos of it is private and has limited hunting so controlling tha herd will be hard. I will do my best the second week of the gun season to help out kent county. a coworker of mine found out i hunt and asked me if i could take a few doe off his and his neigbors place. told him i would come ou and try. a doe or a buck still taste great on the table. i see the problem in souern mich. so i do have diffren views being a tb huner


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

newk8 said:


> And now QDM is gone in our area, oh well I will feed them for some one else and duck on opening day as the war starts. Also lined my blind with armor, feel a little safer now!:yikes:


newk8- I don't believe that QDM has gone anywhere! It's just as prevalent in Clare county as ever. The only thing that's different is that the AR's are gone.

So what.

Keep doing what you're doing in terms of proper deer management, and the QDMA will get back to the basics, and put education at the very top of the list.

Someday, this debate about AR's will just be a fleeting moment in history!

BSK- of couse you can use that quote!


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