# waterfowl hunting state land in michigan



## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

MasterBaiters said:


> I would support a system that gave points or credits to people unsuccessful in the draws,alot of the hunters at harsens are locals and are in the draw twice daily til season over,doesnt seem fair to the guy driving an hour and a half to be n the draw and is unsuccessful,lot better chance with 35 parties then 70.


a lot of people that hunt the other managed areas are locals also... Harsens is the closest managed area to me... I drive twice as far sometimes because the hunting is better at other areas... the area to hunt in the bay at Harsens is probably lager than that of FP or SHIW.... there are members on this site that only hunt the bay at Harsens and don't even bother with the draw...


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## UplandnWaterfowl (Jan 3, 2010)

John Singer said:


> That we have at places like Fish Point.
> 
> A 4 man party staying in the zones twice each day trying to bag 24 birds is too much pressure to have consistent good hunting.
> 
> I personally would support lower bag limits at such managed areas.


The 5 year average at FP is around 1 duck per hunter, simular results at NP, how would lower bag limits change anything? See page 10 of the annual report. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gglMAA&usg=AFQjCNEmGk9aC6QYyH4Pvm0Z4lTcMFaT5A

They count up to 20,000 ducks each week and 100 hunters are taking 100 ducks each day, how can you say "a 6 bird limit has exacerbated the situation"?

I have never limited out at FP or NP, have had some good days and seen other groups with good days but never a group of 4 walking out with 24 birds.

So why with the facts of the annual report do you support lower bag limits? Are you recommending a 1 and done limit, if not what is your proposal?


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

UplandnWaterfowl said:


> The 5 year average at FP is around 1 duck per hunter, simular results at NP, how would lower bag limits change anything? See page 10 of the annual report. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gglMAA&usg=AFQjCNEmGk9aC6QYyH4Pvm0Z4lTcMFaT5A
> 
> They count up to 20,000 ducks each week and 100 hunters are taking 100 ducks each day, how can you say "a 6 bird limit has exacerbated the situation"?
> 
> ...


Hes saying that if the limit was 4 that people would much easier get their limit and leave instead of staying and hoping for 6. It's the same concept as down south at their areas. They all have lower limits as well. People shoot their 4 and get out. Now people will stay until shooting time in hopes of getting their 6 which rarely happens. Make sense?


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

craigrh13 said:


> Hes saying that if the limit was 4 that people would much easier get their limit and leave instead of staying and hoping for 6. It's the same concept as down south at their areas. They all have lower limits as well. People shoot their 4 and get out. Now people will stay until shooting time in hopes of getting their 6 which rarely happens. Make sense?


Yea that.

There is a reason that the average daily bag per hunter at FP is only 1 bird.

Actually there are several reasons.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

John Singer said:


> Yea that.
> 
> There is a reason that the average daily bag per hunter at FP is only 1 bird.
> 
> Actually there are several reasons.


There are several reasons. All of those people hunting morning and evening on dead days drive the averages down. Plus, you have a lot of people using it daily and not every zone produces. Those drive the averages down. I guess you could say that's an issue everywhere. The again, look at the circus that is PM. They hunt every other day and the hunting is still poor overall.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

I have hunted many private clubs in different areas of the country, both for ducks and geese. Most don't hunt past noon. Few goose hunting areas even hunted their ponds, except on the last day of the season. Many did not shoot big flocks opting to only shoot at small groups when all that came in could be taken. 

Michigan is different for some reason.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

I really don't want the guys around me packing up and coming through my zone while im hunting, nor do I want them gone and have 100 live decoys to compete against.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

John Singer said:


> That we gave a 6 bird limit has exacerbated the situation at places like Fish Point.
> 
> A 4 man party staying in the zones twice each day trying to bag 24 birds is too much pressure to have consistent good hunting.
> 
> I personally would support lower bag limits at such managed areas.


this^^

i suggested this 10 years ago with the DNR in one of our meetings and i got shot down so fast it wasn't even funny. The DNR counts hunter trips, not hunter success as a calibration when talking success. If you limit to A.M. only, you will be limiting access and hunter trips. THIS IS WHY IT IS THE WAY IT IS.

hunting pressure is the #1 reason for lack of success on most state land/state game areas. Its not the amount of birds present. Our refuge will be busting at the seams with ducks and hunter success is poor. Birds pattern the hunters way better than hunters patterning the birds.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> this^^
> 
> i suggested this 10 years ago with the DNR in one of our meetings and i got shot down so fast it wasn't even funny. The DNR counts hunter trips, not hunter success as a calibration when talking success. If you limit to A.M. only, you will be limiting access and hunter trips. THIS IS WHY IT IS THE WAY IT IS.
> 
> hunting pressure is the #1 reason for lack of success on most state land/state game areas. Its not the amount of birds present. Our refuge will be busting at the seams with ducks and hunter success is poor. Birds pattern the hunters way better than hunters patterning the birds.


I can understand them not wanting to shut down morning and afternoon hunting but what did they say about a decreased limit? I would support a 4 bird limit.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

craigrh13 said:


> I can understand them not wanting to shut down morning and afternoon hunting but what did they say about a decreased limit? I would support a 4 bird limit.


as would i. if its a suggestion that might make hunter trips to likely go down...it gets shot down pretty fast.

max party 3, max birds per person 4 + 2 geese would make me happy. never happen i don't think.

having 4 guys stuffed into a field on a very active day (birds are flying) they still never limit out. thats 24 ducks, 8 geese (32 birds). No one limits out anymore unless its a couple guys in the party which is rare.

i remember days of 30's having 9 parties in there and EVERY field would limit starting with hot field. they would limit and leave...then fringe fields would limit and leave and then way outside fields would limit. It was so crazy that i would take the fields that were turned in at the field house and go out and get in the hot field at 4:30 in afternoon because previous party (1:00pm hunt) had limited and gone back to field house. lol.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Unfortunately, this states seems to care more about funding(license sales) than success. Proof? The management of our Deere herd is absolutely terrible. 

I understand striking a balance between hunting numbers and trying to make individual successs a priority. However, I think a 4 bird limit would be worth a try. I would think the only people that would bitch would be Hunters in a hot field on a hot day. Other than that I can't see it being an issue. Mostly a mental thing.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

craigrh13 said:


> Unfortunately, this states seems to care more about funding(license sales) than success. Proof? The management of our Deere herd is absolutely terrible.....


True. But it's because of the way our state is funded vs other states programs. I've said this many times over the years here, but back in the days when Engler was governor here, the funding revenue stream for most of the DNR was changed from being mostly "general fund" (or "GF"), which is in essence derived from taxes and other revenue, to a "user pay" system, where mainly the people using the resource pay fees to fund the program. Our revised licensing fees of several years ago was in direct response to this change. It used to be back in the day our programs were 70%-80% GF funding streams, and now it's almost no GF. Or the parks system here, which now is mainly funded through the recreation passport. The parks used to be mainly GF, but not anymore. So we can all thank our legislators and former Governor for this huge change.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

just ducky said:


> True. But it's because of the way our state is funded vs other states programs. I've said this many times over the years here, but back in the days when Engler was governor here, the funding revenue stream for most of the DNR was changed from being mostly "general fund" (or "GF"), which is in essence derived from taxes and other revenue, to a "user pay" system, where mainly the people using the resource pay fees to fund the program. Our revised licensing fees of several years ago was in direct response to this change. It used to be back in the day our programs were 70%-80% GF funding streams, and now it's almost no GF. Or the parks system here, which now is mainly funded through the recreation passport. The parks used to be mainly GF, but not anymore. So we can all thank our legislators and former Governor for this huge change.


That's why I understand why they are so worried about license sales. However, at some point in time quality needs to be brought into the equation. I haven't bought a deee tag in 2 years and I don't know when I ever will again. Maybe when they get heir heads out of their asses and do something about protecting all the 1.5 year old bucks being killed.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> ...hunting pressure is the #1 reason for lack of success on most state land/state game areas. Its not the amount of birds present. Our refuge will be busting at the seams with ducks and hunter success is poor. Birds pattern the hunters way better than hunters patterning the birds.


Exactly! Someone posted that the pressure in the southern states is much greater than here, and that's GENERALLY true with the exception of our managed waterfowl areas. As Shi Kid said, the ducks quickly pattern hunters at our managed areas, and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. I hunted Harsen's a lot back in the 80's and early 90's, and the evening show 10 minutes after closing time was incredible. Ducks landing everywhere around us as we picked up to leave. I can personally say it's often still that way at most of these areas. You can hunt all day and believe there isn't a duck within 50 miles, then closing time comes...WRONG!!! Unless you are fortunate enough to be at one of these managed areas when new birds come in, the ducks pattern hunters very quickly.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

craigrh13 said:


> That's why I understand why they are so worried about license sales. However, at some point in time quality needs to be brought into the equation. I haven't bought a deee tag in 2 years and I don't know when I ever will again. Maybe when they get heir heads out of their asses and do something about protecting all the 1.5 year old bucks being killed.


A whole other discussion, and the reason I quit visiting the deer forums


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

MasterBaiters said:


> not talking about the sga designated as waterfowl hunting areas like fish point but multi use areas


You really just answered your own question. I'm not familiar with the Sandusky area that you mentioned, but State Game areas (other than managed waterfowl areas) are multi-use. Everything from various types of hunting, to mountain biking, hiking, birdwatching, berry picking, and on and on. Trying to close hunting in these areas in the afternoon for example would be about as popular as statewide antler point restrictions for deer. And even if you somehow could close the area to afternoon hunting, what about the other users (mentioned above)? Are you going to get hikers and mountain bikers to agree not to use the areas in the afternoon as well? Not a chance. And those other users also move birds/animals. So then what have you accomplished by limiting hunting?


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

just ducky said:


> A whole other discussion, and the reason I quit visiting the deer forums


It's a very controversial issue for sure.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

craigrh13 said:


> It's a very controversial issue for sure.


We get passionate on this waterfowl board, but those deer guys??? Man, they get downright nasty. I quit going there several years ago because the mods were constantly intervening and shutting people down or banning them


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

UplandnWaterfowl said:


> The 5 year average at FP is around 1 duck per hunter, simular results at NP, how would lower bag limits change anything? See page 10 of the annual report. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gglMAA&usg=AFQjCNEmGk9aC6QYyH4Pvm0Z4lTcMFaT5A
> 
> They count up to 20,000 ducks each week and 100 hunters are taking 100 ducks each day, how can you say "a 6 bird limit has exacerbated the situation"?
> 
> ...


This is a good example of someone taking stats to a whole nother level of apples and oranges.

EXAMPLE 1: average per hunter includes many...and i mean many non-prime days. 2-3 weeks before prime migration, blue bird days, 70 degrees...etc.. also includes cold, icy non productive days....those days still have hunters...those days hunters punch 0. those get factored into the average.

EXAMPLE 2: primetime season mid october, first week of november (migration). hunting good, you have a field thats hot....4 man group hunts it from opener to noon. they have 32 birds to kill. SO THEY EDUCATE DUCKS FOR 5 STRAIGHT hours as they keep piling into the hole. If this was a 3 or 4 bird max, they in essence, could be limited out within hour or 2 and one or two things happen. Other fields around them see success or less birds will get educated as they attempt to fill that massive limit of 32 birds.

EXAMPLE 3: I drew 3rd. hot field went first. I got in the field accross/downwind hoping i would pick up scraps from hot field. 2 guys in that hot field. They were pretty green guys and had a good draw...awesome. hope they have a good hunt and get out so rest of us can get some shooting. They enter and setup at 1pm shooting time. They shoot 8 mallards + 4 bonus birds in about an hour...great shooting. Then they sit there for 5 more hours til closing time calling every bird, left their duck decoys out. sucked every flight right into them all day long. I got irritated..as it clearly did not play out well for us. When i got the dike, i congratulated them on great shooting and good hunt...they were all grins. i asked them why they didn't leave at 2pm when they were limited...and they said they were waiting for their geese. lol.....this is not totally relevant to limits but its an example of how it happens. 4 guys woulda totally made it worse. Yes it was there choice and they had the right but doesn't make it right. There were no geese flying and it wasn't known as a goose field. they shoulda bounced soon as they hit duck/mallard limit and went to watch some football.


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## jwinks (Mar 20, 2014)

I think it's not enough to go to 4 bird limit to really make a difference. All but a handful of days people are skybusting any bird that leaves the refuge. You could have rest days for half of the Zones on alternating days, and have all zones open on Saturday. If you really want to cut down the pressure, you have to do something drastic. Honestly, I don't think it's worth it. People still kill birds on the worst days at shiawassee and fish point.


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## John Singer (Aug 20, 2004)

An interesting stat at Fish Point or other managed areas would be shots fired per birds brought to bag.

Hint: If it takes you 25 shells and you leave with less than your limit. You are shooting. You ain't hunting and doing it right.

The national average is 6 or so shots fired per bird bagged. I hypothesize that it is 15-20 shots per bird at Wish Point.

Pun intended.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

jwinks said:


> I think it's not enough to go to 4 bird limit to really make a difference. All but a handful of days people are skybusting any bird that leaves the refuge. You could have rest days for half of the Zones on alternating days, and have all zones open on Saturday. If you really want to cut down the pressure, you have to do something drastic. Honestly, I don't think it's worth it. People still kill birds on the worst days at shiawassee and fish point.


and that is in essence why it will probably not change in my lifetime. if you hunt hard and smart, you will still kill birds even on the worst days.


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