# 2018 baiting laws



## red wolf

when do you think we will hear what the new baiting laws will be?


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## Ken

Depends on the test results and if there are new areas with disease.

Don't expect finalized hunting regulations till nearly August


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## motdean

Ken said:


> Depends on the test results and if there are new areas with disease.
> 
> Don't expect finalized hunting regulations till nearly August


My guess is that it will be on or before June's NRC meeting. 

If I recall correctly, when it came to the vote last year regarding APR's in the TB zone, it did not occur until the July NRC meeting, which was late for allowing the hunting digests to be printed.


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## jr28schalm

With the nrc having no farmers on the board I see bait being banned..lol


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## Wild Thing

jr28schalm said:


> With the nrc having no farmers on the board I see bait being banned..lol


This would not surprise me at all Jr, given the current CWD situation....and it is probably long overdue.


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## GIDEON

As for me, I am hoping and praying that they will impose a total ban on all baiting and food plots.


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## jr28schalm

GIDEON said:


> As for me, I am hoping and praying that they will impose a total ban on all baiting and food plots.


Food plots not possible, they should have never brought baiting back....


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## Bucman

Will this be another post taken over by disgruntled hunters. Better to use bait to control the disease. Then you can kill the whole family group. Most hunters struggle to kill any deer with or without bait. i don’t personally care either way illl do just fine. It’s the other 80% that will suffer.


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## bucknasty11208

jr28schalm said:


> Food plots not possible, they should have never brought baiting back....


Food plots....baiting...one in the same. Allow one, allow both. Ban one, ban both. That's my take on it.


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## jr28schalm

bucknasty11208 said:


> Food plots....baiting...one in the same. Allow one, allow both. Ban one, ban both. That's my take on it.


So I should cut my apple and oaks down..not happening


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## Luv2hunteup

GIDEON said:


> As for me, I am hoping and praying that they will impose a total ban on all baiting and food plots.


Food plots fall under agricultural practices. All the DNR would have to do is mandate landowners and the state remove all man made food sources including farm crops and landscaping in diseased counties. Sounds easy.


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## Wild Thing

GIDEON said:


> As for me, I am hoping and praying that they will impose a total *ban on all baiting and food plots*.


Yep - They should ban all farmers from planting agricultural crops too. 




bucknasty11208 said:


> *Food plots....baiting...one in the same.* Allow one, allow both. Ban one, ban both. That's my take on it.


Yep - My providing 16 acres of nutritious food plots to feed my deer year round is exactly the same as providing 2 gallons of bait per day in a 100 square foot area for you...exactly the same. 

Sorry guys but my opinion differs somewhat from yours.


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## Ken

Maybe just send a memo out to the deer that they need to spread out when eating.


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## red wolf

I personally do a little of everything both bait in a bag and Feeders plus plots and fruit trees and habitat improvements. Just thinking about what the laws will be so I can plan accordingly. I like to do Dozer work in the late winter when the ground is still frozen. If a state wide ban happens I will try to chip away at a new layout that is compliance


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## miruss

jr28schalm said:


> Food plots not possible, they should have never brought baiting back....


I asked this question years ago when i seen a picture of someones corn food plot with lanes pushed down with atv's to make shooting lanes and no one answered me maybe you can??
would i be ok if i went out in a farmers field ( with permission ) cut down a bunch of corn leaving the STALKS attached to corn cobs and put them out would this still be ok in your eyes! The only difference between a plot and bait pile is it's still attached to the stalk! You can bring up all kinds of ******** to try and make it look ok in your eyes but your NOT A FARMER making a living off the crops your planting for one reason to get a DEER!! As glad as you are for a bait ban there are just as many glad there there will be a ban on MAPRS if the NRC sticks with it's plan!


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## jr28schalm

red wolf said:


> I personally do a little of everything both bait in a bag and Feeders plus plots and fruit trees and habitat improvements. Just thinking about what the laws will be so I can plan accounting. I like to do Dozer work in the late winter when the ground is still frozen. If a state wide ban happens I will try to chip away at a new layout that is compliance


Hopefully they give enough notice so some of the state land hunters have a chance to scout more if they need to..not holding my breath thou...


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## red wolf

For sure. Funny thing is I do over 70% of my hunting on state land around a 1 or 2 mile dia around my place. Providing scouting and cameras show a signs of a mature deer


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## Wild Thing

miruss said:


> As glad as you are for a bait ban *there are just as many glad there there will be a ban on MAPRS if the NRC sticks with it's plan*!


Not really miruss. According to the most recent survey, less than 1 in 4 did not support MAPR's.

2017 NW Lower Peninsula APR Evaluation Report


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## bucknasty11208

jr28schalm said:


> So I should cut my apple and oaks down..not happening


Oak trees and apple trees to an extent are naturally occurring in nature. Food plots are placed there by a human.....kind of like bait. At the end of the day they are both there for the exact same reason...to feed and attract wildlife, which in this case is deer.
Now I know the DNR allows for food plots because its "an agricultural practice" but that's like saying you can feed a homeless person if they come inside the shelter but you cant feed them if they choose to stay outside.
It cracks me up that private land owners who can do whatever they want with their land (which includes growing food plots) want to dictate how those relegated to public land can hunt. Do as I say, not as I do........Right????
As I said, I don't care either way. Ban both or allow both. I do neither so neither one effects me in any way.


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## nothbound

Is baiting in lower Michigan as much tradition as it is in the upper? 
Most of Wisconsin we can't bait and I prefer it that way on crowded public land anyways. However I love being able to have feeders at my places in the yoop. I hunt public up there also and people think I must be nuts hunting without bait. I've realized that majority of u.p. hunters have a long tradition of bait hunting. Most would have no clue what to do without baiting, can't imagine it would be obeyed at all


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## jr28schalm

wildthing said:


> Not really miruss. According to the most recent survey, less than 1 in 4 did not support MAPR's.
> 
> 2017 NW Lower Peninsula APR Evaluation Report


Won't even need aprs if people follow the bait ban..


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## CHASINEYES

I say ban it statewide... I won't lower myself to use bait, however, it does get tempting with each passing year just to prove a point.. This setup takes out 4 - 6 2.5 and 3.5s per year without the target shooters having to leave the house. Chip shots with a crossbow leaning across the breakfast table. Happens to be a section to section travel corridor and of course bedding. Being that its a half mile from my stands as the crow flys, it gets old. Might as well be hitting them with a vehicle or hunting high fence, no much different. No "hunt" involved there whatsoever.


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## red wolf

I think many are confusing baiting with feeders and baiting with a bag of bait vs with dump trucks full of bait. 

I personally have no issues with any or none of the above. I Just always hate to see the crying from the ones that always want things taken away that have been part of hunting from day 1 and change it to accommodate what they think they need today. Hunting is turning into a what is good for me only pastime.


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## Dish7

bucknasty11208 said:


> Food plots are placed there by a human.....kind of like bait. At the end of the day they are both there for the exact same reason...to feed and attract wildlife, which in this case is deer.


Yes they are put out for deer...the entire local herd benefits year round along with almost every other critter in the area, game and non game alike.



bucknasty11208 said:


> It cracks me up that private land owners who can do whatever they want with their land (which includes growing food plots) want to dictate how those relegated to public land can hunt. Do as I say, not as I do........Right????


It cracks me up how people who do a little bit of nothing fight _anything and_ _everything _that could change their routine.


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## MossyHorns

Luv2hunteup said:


> Food plots fall under agricultural practices. All the DNR would have to do is mandate landowners and the state remove all man made food sources including farm crops and landscaping in diseased counties. Sounds easy.


That will never happen! The DNR has zero control over agriculture. The agriculture industry comes 1st over wildlife. What would you do about apple orchards? The deer browse all winter long in my uncle's orchards. I have a neighbor that has been known to finish harvesting his corn in March. A lot of soybeans in my area didn't get harvested until the last week of November this year, because it was too wet. Some fields still have pockets of beans that were too wet to harvest.


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## retired dundo

If they ban baiting they should make little food plots like 50feet square illegal.They should have to be at least two acres


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## jr28schalm

retired dundo said:


> If they ban baiting they should make little food plots like 50feet square illegal.They should have to be at least two acres


I like your thinking, feed more deer


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## sullyxlh

Bucman said:


> ..Most hunters struggle to kill any deer with or without bait...


Big difference between killing a deer and hunting one
Those that sit over bait just want to kill a deer, they don't want to put the time or effort into hunting them.


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## davidshane

I would hope that any changes, if made, would be made early enough for farmers to decide what is best for their fields. 

I hunt big woods and swamps on Stateland in the NLP and I mostly bow hunt. If baiting is banned, it would definitely change my hunting along with 90+ percent of the bow hunters in my area. I would likely become more of a gun hunter moving forward.


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## red wolf

Do people understand the deer will move to the best food available in the area to survive. If you don't have that now with bait. You will not have that later without bait. It will not push deer in different directions and spread out. They will move together to the next best food and move again to the next best food. No matter what deer need two things for sure to survive. Food and water. Everything else is a bonus..

Bait only helps the hunters that know how to use it. Plenty of hunters bait and have zero success. A pile of bait will not equal a dead deer no matter how awesome of a hunter someone thinks they are.


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## retired dundo

sullyxlh said:


> Big difference between killing a deer and hunting one
> Those that sit over bait just want to kill a deer, they don't want to put the time or effort into hunting them.


A lot of people only have 20 or so acres to hunt how much work is there to scouting 20 acres.So what if they have a small bait pile spread out or small food plot or couple fruit trees.There just happy to get a deer doe or any buck.They bought there license and can do what ever is legal.We can't say there bad just because we have higher standards for what we want.


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## Dish7

retired dundo said:


> A lot of people only have 20 or so acres to hunt how much work is there to scouting 20 acres.So what if they have a small bait pile spread out or small food plot or couple fruit trees.There just happy to get a deer doe or any buck.They bought there license and can do what ever is legal.We can't say there bad just because we have higher standards for what we want.


Not much scouting on 20 acres or 40 like I have especially when you've had it for a while. The work to improve it however seems endless (also addictive and very fulfilling) because I don't settle for "any buck."


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## swampbuck

Luv2hunteup said:


> Food plots fall under agricultural practices. All the DNR would have to do is mandate landowners and the state remove all man made food sources including farm crops and landscaping in diseased counties. Sounds easy.


No, all they would have to do is define agriculture as products that are harvested for sale or livestock consumption. 

Several years ago they sent a letter to clubs requesting that certain types of food plots not be planted. If you think it isn't on the radar you are mistaken. You have no high ground.




sullyxlh said:


> Big difference between killing a deer and hunting one
> Those that sit over bait just want to kill a deer, they don't want to put the time or effort into hunting them.


Does it take more skill to sit over a food plot, than a bait ?


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## Luv2hunteup

The DNR could change the baiting rule to make it more like AG crops. 7#/acre works out pretty good for me on brassica seed. Rye is about 200#/acre. 

That sure spreads deer out more than 10#/100sqft. Maybe spread that 10# of corn on 100 times that much area for less concentrated deer?


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## jr28schalm

Let a half acre of rye go to seed every year..going to sell the seeds..plots are going no where..bye bye bait


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## retired dundo

swampbuck said:


> No, all they would have to do is define agriculture as products that are harvested for sale or livestock consumption.
> 
> Several years ago they sent a letter to clubs requesting that certain types of food plots not be planted. If you think it isn't on the radar you are mistaken. You have no high ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does it take more skill to sit over a food plot, than a bait ?


Very good point


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## retired dundo

swampbuck said:


> No, all they would have to do is define agriculture as products that are harvested for sale or livestock consumption.
> 
> Several years ago they sent a letter to clubs requesting that certain types of food plots not be planted. If you think it isn't on the radar you are mistaken. You have no high ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does it take more skill to sit over a food plot, than a bait ?





retired dundo said:


> Very good point


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## retired dundo

Iam waiting for someone to answer Swampbucks question.Does it take more skill sitting over a food plot than a bait pile.One of the best post


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## Bucman

retired dundo said:


> Iam waiting for someone to answer Swampbucks question.Does it take more skill sitting over a food plot than a bait pile.One of the best post


Well slightly more to hunt a food plot. You need to be in the right place on the plot.
Bait pile just pick a spot and dump!


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## nothbound

They can't ban food plots no matter how hard the bait guys argue. Simply because they can't make it illegal to be unsuccessful at your business attempts.. I would 'farm' my former plot land. Then be so busy patrolling for crop damage (hunting) that I never have time to harvest and sell. Now I'm a failing farmer and may even be able to obtain some feel sorry for me gov funding?


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## swampbuck

So basically using semantics to justify increased disease risks, is acceptable. And leaves those who do so with a clear conscience ?


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## Ken

So, they would attempt to enforce how much seed was planted in a food plot that was being hunted over? that's laughable.


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## GIDEON

nothbound said:


> They can't ban food plots no matter how hard the bait guys argue. Simply because they can't make it illegal to be unsuccessful at your business attempts.. I would 'farm' my former plot land. Then be so busy patrolling for crop damage (hunting) that I never have time to harvest and sell. Now I'm a failing farmer and may even be able to obtain some feel sorry for me gov funding?


Integrity and honesty, integrity and honesty seem to be lost traits on so many.


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## swampbuck

If I frost seeded corn in my back yard, could I call it a food plot ?

How about if I used a dibble to stick sugar beets back in the ground, pointy end down of course.


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## Whitetail Freak

retired dundo said:


> Iam waiting for someone to answer Swampbucks question.Does it take more skill sitting over a food plot than a bait pile.One of the best post


Well, I bet if you or most hunters hunted my food plot on my measly 20 acres, you would be lucky to shoot anything and would be ruined on your 2nd hunt.
Edit: I bet it would be ruined before you even hunted it.


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## swampbuck

Well, the CWD response plan specifically requests that you avoid "management practices that increase carrying capacity"

I guess if you don't want to participate in controlling CWD, that's on you.

But when it continues to spread, you won't have the baiters to blame.


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## beerguy214

I just don’t get how eliminating baiting is going to help the spread of disease.Its common sense that if there is no bait or food plots to eat from they are going to the farmers fields.Maybe they think the deer automatically know when they are in a farmers field that they need to stay away from each other.lol.What a bunch of morons.


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## mattawanhunter

Oh Man, it's gonna be a long six months if it takes them that Long!
Last year MAPR's along with baiting which some one ALWAYS has to bring up over and over!
Bait or no bait I'm already looking forward to my 1st sit next Oct 1st, I don't use bait much down here except some years when there are no acorns! I do in the UP so I can see something besides tree's.
Let the debates begin (AGAIN!).
Happy New Year All!


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## miruss

swampbuck said:


> Does it take more skill to sit over a food plot, than a bait ?


Of course it does you have to know how much FERTILIZER is needed in those plots ! By reading these posts a lot of people have way to much FERTILIZER only good thing is they will save money!!


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## miruss

wildthing said:


> Not really miruss. According to the most recent survey, less than 1 in 4 did not support MAPR's.
> 
> 2017 NW Lower Peninsula APR Evaluation Report


Survey has nothing to do with it !! If you have been paying attention with the coming of CWD means the NRC response plan is NO MORE APR'S !! So bye bye NW 12 !


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## swampbuck

Does Ed Spin still promote his anti-septic sugar beets....maybe those would prevent CWD along with bTB.


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## bald eagle

I remember the last time they banned baiting a lot of gas stations and party stores still had pallets of bait by there pumps and in front of there stores. People were still baiting and the DNR still didn't go and check on the complaints of people baiting, it wasn't worth there time. I hunted last year in a area that everybody baited and I'm talking truck loads of bait not the 2.5 gallons by law and then driving north on I-75 all the trucks and trailers loaded with Sugar beets and carrots, corn, they had enough to last 3-months. The deer acted like they always do with the hunter pressure around bait they went nocturnal. With the snow we had you could see like spokes on a wheel the deer trails going to bait at night. Hunters were complaining they were not seeing any deer, No kidding they have been conditioned. Some one in a earlier post said hunters have been baiting since day one, I don't remember people baiting to the degree they do today back in the late 60's, so it really hasn't been from day one. I think we are really missing something with are younger generation on how to teach them how to read deer sign and figure out the how two's of deer hunting. I'm afraid that just dumping a scoop of sugar beets or carrots is really not the answer to teaching our kids how to hunt.


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## bucknasty11208

Dish7 said:


> Yes they are put out for deer...the entire local herd benefits year round along with almost every other critter in the area, game and non game alike.
> 
> It cracks me up how people who do a little bit of nothing fight _anything and_ _everything _that could change their routine.


You didn't read closely enough. As I said, I don't bait or use food plots so it doesn't effect me or change my routine in any way what so ever. IMO bait piles and food plots are one in the same. The only difference is that a food plot someone is hunting over is currently in the ground and the bait pile someone is hunting over (which by the way was grown by normal agricultural practices) was "in" the ground not to long before it was "on" the ground. To each their own. Ill just continue to hunt my large tracks of National Forest in an area where baiting isn't allowed and there is no ag land within a good distance of me. Ill just rely on my 34 years of experience in those woods hunting natural food sources and travel areas and bedding areas etc....


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## Dish7

bucknasty11208 said:


> You didn't read closely enough. As I said, I don't bait or use food plots so it doesn't effect me or change my routine in any way what so ever. IMO bait piles and food plots are one in the same. The only difference is that a food plot someone is hunting over is currently in the ground and the bait pile someone is hunting over (which by the way was grown by normal agricultural practices) was "in" the ground not to long before it was "on" the ground. To each their own. Ill just continue to hunt my large tracks of National Forest in an area where baiting isn't allowed and there is no ag land within a good distance of me. Ill just rely on my 34 years of experience in those woods hunting natural food sources and travel areas and bedding areas etc....


And you didn't take in my reply. If I were to throw a bucket of corn on the ground on my property it would last about a day maybe two. Almost zero wildlife benefit except for the handful of animals that scarfed it down. My food plots are there year round as are the "natural" food sources and cover that I encourage through habit work. Also year round. So no, not the same as dumping a couple gallons of corn on the ground.


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## GIDEON

retired dundo said:


> A lot of people only have 20 or so acres to hunt how much work is there to scouting 20 acres.So what if they have a small bait pile spread out or small food plot or couple fruit trees.There just happy to get a deer doe or any buck.They bought there license and can do what ever is legal.We can't say there bad just because we have higher standards for what we want.


Name one hunter in this state that doesnt have access to 100's of thousands of acres to hunt, 20 to 40 acres my foot.


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## Forest Meister

mattawanhunter said:


> Oh Man, it's gonna be a long six months if it takes them that Long!
> Last year MAPR's along with baiting which some one ALWAYS has to bring up over and over!
> Bait or no bait I'm already looking forward to my 1st sit next Oct 1st, I don't use bait much down here except some years when there are no acorns! I do in the UP so I can see something besides tree's.
> Let the debates begin (AGAIN!).
> Happy New Year All!


Do what I do. Put a bird feeder on the corner of your blind and most years there will at least be chickadees to look at. FM


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## fanrwing

sullyxlh said:


> Big difference between killing a deer and hunting one
> Those that sit over bait just want to kill a deer, they don't want to put the time or effort into hunting them.






Same with food plots.


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## 357Maximum

Bait will almost certainly be outlawed. Food/kill/bait plots are near impossible to control/outlaw unless they twist eminent domain somehow or throw the Constitution out the window. So bait/food/kill plots will remain and the bait pile guys will get screwed over by a feel good law that does nothing but make some sections of private land even more appealing to the deer than they are now. 

I neither plot nor bait, both artificial methods of concentrating deer where you want them fall far short in importance for MY DEER here in big ag land. I gave them a big bedroom to live and die in, the neighbors all feed the deer in the dark in their massive fields, I do not need to feed. I just kill them on the way out or on the way back into that bedroom and also when they are playing grabfanny in that same bedroom. 

I have nothing at stake either way, but I can see one main difference between plotters and baiters. Put quite simply baiters can admit what they are doing and plotters cannot. Bait and bait plots are the same exact thing, they are both put there artificially to give the hunter an artificial advantage. One is there for concentrating deer for a few weeks, the other is there for 9 months doing the same exact thing. There is simply no way a small bait plot is not more dangerous than a temporary baitpile, it's simple math by numbers. I know it, you know it, we all know it..........it's a shame only the baiters can be honest about their actions and with themselves and admit what they are up to though.


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## Dish7

swampbuck said:


> Well, the CWD response plan specifically requests that you avoid "management practices that increase carrying capacity"
> 
> I guess if you don't want to participate in controlling CWD, that's on you.
> 
> But when it continues to spread, you won't have the baiters to blame.


So you are still under the impression that we can stop/slow the spread of CWD with the same methods that have failed for the past 20 years in every other CWD state.


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## casscityalum

I’m looking forward to planting 5 acre of corn and soybean field. I will sell all the grain and combine it. Just after January first. I don’t want to pay drying cost or storage at elevator. Legal,honest and purely ethical all at the same time. I’ll even claim it and file taxes under agriculture.


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## sniper

spikekilla said:


> I wonder what the second best post of 2018 will be...


Certainly won't be this one!


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## red wolf

Turkey population increase because of bait piles ???? Never. If you see less turkey it is only because loss of turkey habitat.. and when you see more it is because some habitat in a 5 mile radius and been modified and pulls the birds back in.. bait piles no not at all


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## spikekilla

sniper said:


> Certainly won't be this one!


 Secretariat in the Belmont


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## Liver and Onions

Luv2hunteup said:


> ........ You can also look back a couple years ago where i posted that it took me less than 2-1/2 hours to kill a couple of deer after Christmas in two different SLP counties.
> ..........


Yep, not difficult to kill hungry deer in late December or January. 

L & O


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## Jdhunttrapfish

357Maximum said:


> The only thing a small plot does that a pile does not is concentrate deer so the can defecate, urinate, etc on a small piece of dirt longer, and hold more deer than "normal" in a "confined space" longer, with CWD this may be significant. CASE CLOSED


 a small plot would be similar, but to say a half acre plot would be just as likely for a deer to come in contact with cwd as a ten foot by ten foot bait pile where the deer ate in every square inch? I don't think so


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## jr28schalm

swampbuck said:


> How about a new topic...What do you guys think of the new NRC member, and the new NRC chairperson?


I see more gem land and fly"s only streams..lol


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## Wild Thing

Whitetail Freak said:


> Well, I bet if you or most hunters hunted my food plot on my measly 20 acres, you would be lucky to shoot anything and would be ruined on your 2nd hunt.
> Edit: I bet it would be ruined before you even hunted it.


How true. I have a 3.5 acre destination food plot that I have hunted once or twice in 20+ years. I have 16 total acres of food plots on my 160 acres and never hunted even one of them this past year (although some of our guests did). The bucks I am hunting aren't likely to be found in those food plots during daylight hours during the hunting season so I prefer to hunt travel corridors/runways leading to or from the food, bedding or active scrapes. We could have killed several nice bucks this year but took only two 8 points - neither of which was killed near a food plot.

The only nearby ag land we have is a dairy farm that pummels the deer (including bucks which are shot illegally) from July through Sept 30th right up to 11 PM on crop damage permits. My food plots provide a relatively safe and stress free venue for deer and many other types of wildlife. We enjoy being good stewards of the land and doing the habitat and food plot work. We especially enjoy seeing how our efforts have changed the landscape and we just love seeing all of the wildlife that benefit from the fruits of our labor. My apologies if that offends anyone.

I guess that if and when my area is impacted by CWD I can re-evaluate the impact that my food plots may or may not be having on that issue, but until then, I firmly believe that my habitat and food plot efforts are promoting a healthier deer herd.


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## KCRuger

I will answer the question. I am 34 years old. I have hunted over bait most of my life. Not all the time but on and off during the season. Now I own my own place. (40 acres) I have put in food plots and am starting to do the research for an orchard. Both for my own consumption and for the deer. So does it take more skill to hunt over bait than over a food plot? Well the shooting part no probably not. Does it take more skill and work over all yes. Lots of things come into play when designing, planting and growing a plot. So in this regard and in my opinion the hunt starts at the planning stage and ends and the filled tag. So yes it takes more skill to hunt over a food plot.


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## Luv2hunteup

jr28schalm said:


> I see more gem land and fly"s only streams..lol


I would love to see expansion of the GEM program at the very least more intensive management of the existing GEMs. I could care less about flys only rivers but I don’t fly fish.


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## Dish7

wildthing said:


> We especially enjoy seeing how our efforts have changed the landscape and we just love seeing all of the wildlife that benefit from the fruits of our labor. My apologies if that offends anyone.


There is never a need to apologize for being a good land steward despite what some on MSF try to push.



wildthing said:


> I guess that if and when my area is impacted by CWD I can re-evaluate the impact that my food plots may or may not be having on that issue, but until then, I firmly believe that my habitat and food plots efforts are promoting a healthier deer herd.


Exactly. Deer are a very social animal that lives every day of it's life through it's nose. Your food plots are not the problem.


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## Whitetail Freak

I'd rather hunt over a corn pile than a clover food plot in December any day.


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## wojo124

Hopefully they ban baiting for good


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## booger

red wolf said:


> when do you think we will hear what the new baiting laws will be?


Well, what about food plots? Aren't they about he same? There are no limits as to the size of a food plot.


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## Wild Thing

booger said:


> Well, what about food plots? Aren't they about he same? There are no limits as to the size of a food plot.


Excuse me if I find this statement somewhat humorous at this point of the thread. Just had to Laugh Out Loud.


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## booger

CHASINEYES said:


> I say ban it statewide... I won't lower myself to use bait, however, it does get tempting with each passing year just to prove a point.. This setup takes out 4 - 6 2.5 and 3.5s per year without the target shooters having to leave the house. Chip shots with a crossbow leaning across the breakfast table. Happens to be a section to section travel corridor and of course bedding. Being that its a half mile from my stands as the crow flys, it gets old. Might as well be hitting them with a vehicle or hunting high fence, no much different. No "hunt" involved there whatsoever.
> View attachment 290095


As I see it, you don't fish. Don't lower yourself to using bait. Bait is a tool, if I need it, I'll use it.


----------



## Justin

Jdhunttrapfish said:


> a small plot would be similar, but to say a half acre plot would be just as likely for a deer to come in contact with cwd as a ten foot by ten foot bait pile where the deer ate in every square inch? I don't think so


Well you're wrong. An average bait pile is in place for a few weeks or less. The food plot is there year around, usually year after year. Where are the prions more likely to build up?


----------



## 357Maximum

Jdhunttrapfish said:


> a small plot would be similar, but to say a half acre plot would be just as likely for a deer to come in contact with cwd as a ten foot by ten foot bait pile where the deer ate in every square inch? I don't think so


Who you trying to convince yourself or me?


----------



## Whitetail Freak

Justin said:


> Well you're wrong. An average bait pile is in place for a few weeks or less. The food plot is there year around, usually year after year. Where are the prions more likely to build up?


Well you're wrong, a legal 2 gallon bait pile is gone over night. Oh you said average, that's the damn problem! Your talking about illegal bait piles.


----------



## fordman1

No baiting sounds good to me.


----------



## scott m

We are our own worst enemies. Why let a government agency tell us what we can and can not do, why give them more power to take rights away because we don't agree with how someone else does it. I hate the guy who walks thorough the woods at prime time. So should we ban that NO **** NO.
Funny when this country was founded we fought for freedom's we have, Now we fight to take our own freedoms away. It is truly disgusting to see.


----------



## freeheel

i don't think baiting is the issue here, cwd is prevalent in an area of the state where baiting is minimal compared to northern parts of the state, my un scientific opinion is the deer population is way over its carrying capacity and it will continue to spread until its brought way way down from current levels


----------



## dafuzz89

mattawanhunter said:


> Me, unless I want to drive far enough north where there isn't 10 hunters per square mile!


10 hunters? Where is that secluded spot?


----------



## mbrewer

Dish7 said:


> They could outlaw food plots tomorrow and I would not stop hunting. So you are saying if we take the pile of carrots away the baiters are gonna take their ball and go home?


I think his point had something to do with who will harvest all the happy, healthy deer? Providing for and protecting deer from harvest falls into the category of loving them too much. And I see a whole bunch of that in this and other threads.

One guy says he owns and hunts the CWD zone, sees 30-80 deer a day and could not harvest even one of them? Someone save us and the deer from that guy and everyone else that measures their love by how many happy, healthy deer they don't shoot.


----------



## mbrewer

Jdhunttrapfish said:


> well if that's the problem your gonna have to get rid of all food sources for deer that are there year after year, good luck


If we can't do everything, we can't do anything is an embarrassingly shallow albeit popular position.


----------



## FREEPOP

Dish7 said:


> They could outlaw food plots tomorrow and I would not stop hunting. So you are saying if we take the pile of carrots away the baiters are gonna take their ball and go home?


You mean like "Stop feeding the beast?"


----------



## jr28schalm

FREEPOP said:


> You mean like "Stop feeding the beast?"


Curious to see the numbers..lol


----------



## Dish7

Waif said:


> You telling me what to do? Good luck with that.
> I have read the entire thread as it progressed/ degenerated.


Degenerated is right. Wow, just pointed out that I had already stated my opinion about the question you asked.



Hunters Edge said:


> So how does banning bait that you seem to advocate help in containing or eradicate the disease? When you explicitly explained in detail deer in your post "mine just chew and poop as they walk".


This thread has gotten too long as people are forgetting or skimming over previous post I guess. I don't advocate banning baiting...could care less if it is done legally. See post 154. Not even that far back. Deer poop as they walk and browse. I will stand by that. Just like the bedding area bathroom behavior, stand by that too. LOL wasn't meant to be so deep. Simply put I don't think a bait pile or a food plot has any effect on disease. JMO, I am not an arm chair biologists as deadgoose puts it.


----------



## mbrewer

jr28schalm said:


> This shet reminds me of NA meetings...I just want to run out and dump a bag of bait now


Me too.


----------



## Dish7

liaisonllc said:


> So...just wondering....if baiting increases turkey Populations and CWD increases at same time...could Turkeys be the carrier of CWD and not the baiting itself?


I don't know about baiting having an affect on turkey population...wasn't really what I agreeing with. I just know the population has exploded in the last 10 years around me so being allowed an extra turkey kill tag would be okay with me. Again JMO.


----------



## mbrewer

FREEPOP said:


> You mean like "Stop feeding the beast?"


#Pantyfrictionitis.


----------



## sniper

Dish7 said:


> LOL, wow I guess the deer around me need to learn some toilet etiquette. Mine just chew and poop as they walk. Ever watch deer in a bedding area? Bedded deer stand, turn around, poop, lay back down and repeat over and over again day after day in the same area. Or do the deer around you politely excuse themselves, go poop and come back? :lol:


Dish thanx for sorting out this shat exclusive for me...There was so much bunk in his post I didn't know where to start...lol


----------



## Dish7

sniper said:


> Dish thanx for sorting out this shat exclusive for me...There was so much bunk in his post I didn't know where to start...lol


No problem, I think my work in this thread is complete as I am just repeating myself now lol.


----------



## mustang72

Trout King said:


> If your plots can't compete with a scoop of beets, then maybe you should plant some beets in the plot?


 My upnorth sand box soil isn't ready for that yet,turnips is as good as it gets right now or I could just trailer a couple scoops out like the neighbor.


----------



## JPWARD

357Maximum said:


> Do you move your bait plot around randomly every year and do you only have living bait in it for a couple of weeks or so? Your fancy math is missing a few pretty important variables.


My point is that if are going to attract deer to an area to hunt, placing a food plot is a more responsible option. Obviously people will say it is not ideal in cwd areas. I am 200 miles from the cwd area so not a huge concern right now for my property.


----------



## sniper

mattawanhunter said:


> The tone and attitude here is Exactly why I am switching more to small game hunting. All this has stolen my joy and love of deer hunting.... Don't get me wrong I'll be out next fall but with less of a focus here, we're shooting off at our own Brotherhood, we should be a band of good natured brothers not blowing up at each other over something WE are not going to control. Wow just like the apr topic last year, you all need to take a chill pill and save your hate!


MH if you don't like what you read here stop looking at it and uninstall this app, website whatever ...I talk deer hunting with numerous guys throughout the year and I never hear the spew I hear on this site..My advice is to skip this jabber and stay on the habitat forums...lol


----------



## sniper

Wolverick said:


> mattawanhunter, If reading this stuff is effecting your love of deer hunting then quit reading it! You may find yourself in a better frame of mind all around. I know I have dropped listening to the news in the past and was glad I did. Nowadays I regulate how much I listen so I don`t go insane.


Wolverick you beat me to the simplest solution...No brainer..
Nice work


----------



## fishgitter

mustang72 said:


> I want baiting banned.. mostly because my food plots can't compete with a scoop of beets. Just trying to be honest. My neighbor is a master baiter. NO BAITING!!


HA HA !! So that's why I'm shooting more bucks on my 5 acres , with my little pit blind and 2lbs of corn mixed with mollasis spread all over. My neighbor has 80 acres and many food plots and I think his whole family gets 1 to 2 does and every other year a buck. I have private property all around me and they all have food plots. I usually only hunt my 5 in December.


----------



## JDHunts

Whitetail Freak said:


> Well you're wrong, a legal 2 gallon bait pile is gone over night. Oh you said average, that's the damn problem! Your talking about illegal bait piles.


Careful, you could be wrong, the guys that I know that bait, they run corn/pellets 365 days a year in spin feeders, not everyone dumps veggies on the ground for a short time.


----------



## 357Maximum

And here I thought that if you were not happy with the way the DNR was handling things ya just threw a hissy fit on facebook like any good five year old and try to get the Chief of the DNR fired. ---CWD is just a "distraction" anyway right?. Why starve the beast when you can try to get part of it fired till you get your deck stacked the way you like? 


Not sure whether I should laugh out loud or try to get this guy some mental help....color me torn. 



https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/dumpruss?source=feed_text&story_id=1937393349622878


----------



## 357Maximum

jr28schalm said:


> This shet reminds me of NA meetings...I just want to run out and dump a bag of bait now



I kinda feel the same way, but somehow dumping bait next to my neighbors acres and acres of super hybrid alfalfa seems a bit ridiculous.


----------



## mustang72

fishgitter said:


> HA HA !! So that's why I'm shooting more bucks on my 5 acres , with my little pit blind and 2lbs of corn mixed with mollasis spread all over. My neighbor has 80 acres and many food plots and I think his whole family gets 1 to 2 does and every other year a buck. I have private property all around me and they all have food plots. I usually only hunt my 5 in December.


You successful little baiter you...


----------



## Hillsdales Most Wanted

Trout King said:


> If your plots can't compete with a scoop of beets, then maybe you should plant some beets in the plot?


Growing beets is too expensive & time consuming, he just needs to buy a few bags of beets and throw them in his plot


----------



## swampbuck

357Maximum said:


> And here I thought that if you were not happy with the way the DNR was handling things ya just threw a hissy fit on facebook like any good five year old and try to get the Chief of the DNR fired. ---CWD is just a "distraction" anyway right?. Why starve the beast when you can try to get part of it fired till you get your deck stacked the way you like?
> 
> 
> Not sure whether I should laugh out loud or try to get this guy some mental help....color me torn.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/dumpruss?source=feed_text&story_id=1937393349622878



Hahahahaha.....that's priceless!!!!!

Neither a baiting ban or a plot ban will stop CWD. But if one side wants to use CWD to screw the other side they should expect as pushback, because it is waiting to happen.

The only possibility is to contain it. And that begins with killing deer, a lot of them ! In and especially around the zone.

If your practicing attract and hold, or trying to intentionally protect deer from people are willing to kill them you are the problem.

30dpsm, the recommended density without disease....equals less than 1 deer per 20 acres. 

Are you doing your part ?


----------



## jr28schalm

357Maximum said:


> I kinda feel the same way, but somehow dumping bait next to my neighbors acres and acres of super hybrid alfalfa seems a bit ridiculous.


I bet they still go to the bait..lol


----------



## 357Maximum

swampbuck said:


> Hahahahaha.....that's priceless!!!!!
> 
> Neither a baiting ban or a plot ban will stop CWD. But if one side wants to use CWD to screw the other side they should expect as pushback, because it is waiting to happen.
> 
> The only possibility is to contain it. And that begins with killing deer, a lot of them ! In and especially around the zone.
> 
> If your practicing attract and hold, or trying to intentionally protect deer from people are willing to kill them you are the problem.
> 
> 30dpsm, the recommended density without disease....equals less than 1 deer per 20 acres.
> 
> Are you doing your part ?



No I am not doing my part. I am just too damn selfish to try to keep up with the doe kills that my neighbors seem to think we need, they are doe killing pros working the system to protect their crops. I saw more bucks than does again this year, so I killed two of them instead. You have to remember only about 5-10% of the land at most around here is not farmed into nothingness. BUT...as of this very minute though I can say there is zero deer per square mile on my property. I walked all of it yesterday and never cut a deer track. SLP does not always mean 1000 dpsm.


----------



## 357Maximum

jr28schalm said:


> I bet they still go to the bait..lol


I'll likely never know if you are right or not.


----------



## Trout King

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> Growing beets is too expensive & time consuming, he just needs to buy a few bags of beets and throw them in his plot


Is a few bags more than 2 gallons? 

Personally, I have no dog in the baiting vs no baiting vs plots debate. When Owned my property it was 40 of swamp and pines. My baitpiles were native white oak. My other properties now are all farm ground, hundreds of acres of plots aka cornfields, beans oaks and alfalfa.

I really don't hear of much baiting locally though I am sure some do.


----------



## mattawanhunter




----------



## Hillsdales Most Wanted

Trout King said:


> Is a few bags more than 2 gallons?
> 
> Personally, I have no dog in the baiting vs no baiting vs plots debate. When Owned my property it was 40 of swamp and pines. My baitpiles were native white oak. My other properties now are all farm ground, hundreds of acres of plots aka cornfields, beans oaks and alfalfa.
> 
> I really don't hear of much baiting locally though I am sure some do.


If he has 3 stands set up on his plot. Wonder how close bait piles can be to each other???


----------



## jr28schalm

357Maximum said:


> I'll likely never know if you are right or not.


Give me your address..lol...i got alot of corn that needs a new home....we can dump it right in there bed room ..mr qdm


----------



## mattawanhunter

My opinion about the same old blah blah blah bout deer baiting!


----------



## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> Is a few bags more than 2 gallons?
> 
> Personally, I have no dog in the baiting vs no baiting vs plots debate. When Owned my property it was 40 of swamp and pines. My baitpiles were native white oak. My other properties now are all farm ground, hundreds of acres of plots aka cornfields, beans oaks and alfalfa.
> 
> I really don't hear of much baiting locally though I am sure some do.



I don't know of anyone that baits within 1.5 miles in 3 of the four directions of my place. I would not be surprised if the fourth direction guys are baiting however.


----------



## mattawanhunter




----------



## 357Maximum

jr28schalm said:


> Give me your address..lol...i got alot of corn that needs a new home....we can dump it right in there bed room ..mr qdm



You'd be better off dumping it in the river out back, at least the catfish would eat it that way. Right now there is nothing here to eat it besides the pheasants and rabbits.


----------



## 357Maximum

swampbuck said:


> Hahahahaha.....that's priceless!!!!!


Priceless????? Totally unhinged is the words I would choose, but whatever. :lol:


----------



## swampbuck

357Maximum said:


> No I am not doing my part. I am just too damn selfish to try to keep up with the doe kills that my neighbors seem to think we need, they are doe killing pros working the system to protect their crops. I saw more bucks than does again this year, so I killed two of them instead. You have to remember only about 5-10% of the land at most around here is not farmed into nothingness. BUT...as of this very minute though I can say there is zero deer per square mile on my property. I walked all of it yesterday and never cut a deer track. SLP does not always mean 1000 dpsm.


The deer are concentrated somewhere. Even if there was ten deer per square mile if those ten reside on 100 acres, that 100 acres is at twice the recommended density.



357Maximum said:


> Priceless????? Totally unhinged is the words I would choose, but whatever. :lol:


I can't post what I really think, but their reaction to a pre-determined outcome, had entertainment value that was off the charts.....Well played by the DNR/NRC !


----------



## 357Maximum

swampbuck said:


> The deer are concentrated somewhere. Even if there was ten deer per square mile if those ten reside on 100 acres, that 100 acres is at twice the recommended density.
> 
> !


I bet you got a lot of noogies, purple nurples, wedgies, and snakebites as a child didn't ya? There is currently 9 (5 adults and 4 fawns) deer in the local "yard". This yard is holding the deer from 5-6 SQUARE MILES.


----------



## Trout King

357Maximum said:


> Priceless????? Totally unhinged is the words I would choose, but whatever. :lol:


Pheasants? I will be expecting the invite next year. I haven't had the heart to pheasant hunt in many years due to seldom seeing or hearing them around here.


----------



## Trout King

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> If he has 3 stands set up on his plot. Wonder how close bait piles can be to each other???


One bait pile, 3 stands for changing wind? That is how I'd do it. Lol


----------



## 357Maximum

Trout King said:


> Pheasants? I will be expecting the invite next year. I haven't had the heart to pheasant hunt in many years due to seldom seeing or hearing them around here.



Consider it done,if things go the way I think they are going,,,, but only in the December season. I skip the October season, you can probably guess why. I have been "trading" that privilege for access to another for deer hunting access on his property, but the ol boy is getting up there and will most likely not be doing it no more. We killed 11 roosters this year between three guys. I try to only take about 2/3 of what I figure I have for roosters every year. I used to leave them all alone, but that was a mistake as the roosters were being true cocks and actually running off the hens. I learned from my mistake.


----------



## sniper

mattawanhunter said:


> So no one at your camp says, "hope no body shoots a small buck around here, let um go, let um grow" or " I can't believe the lazy asses that hunt over bait", insert a 20 minute lecture on the hazards of bating or "if you hunt there don't ride your quad", make sure you walk in from the ridge not the road your lazy and will ruin my stand because of the wind direction" or "I can't believe theirs people that hunt out of blinds, huts or pop ups with heaters, that ain't hunting".
> 
> Everything stated above have been the topics of 2 Deer camps Ive hunted in the UP for over 36 years.
> 
> I like the positive aspects of deer camp you have listed below but many times it gets ruined by know it all jerks that constantly have to spew there opinions that ruin the fun of being in camp, this is the reason I don't go to one camp I went to for years, but now we have attitudes in group 2, instead of just letting people hunt how they want to and shut up, which is why I am switching away from the traditional Deer camp, listening to know it alls to a more solo and different types of hunting (small game,bear,coyote, maybe bob cat). I have to listen to jerks and know it alls at work (customers and co workers) all year and chew it with our saying anything, the last place I need to hear it is at Deer camp or on line, (which is why I am speaking my mind on this post) this is supposed to be RECREATIONAL and FUN.
> 
> I am glad you haven't experienced this at your camp, I remember when ours was fun, I loved it, it will be again with just me and my son!


I've heard all that stuff you stated above but not from peeps in my camp...Sounds like you need to identify who you spend your falls with...I don't put up with that stuff and in 38 yrs of deer hunting I haven't really had to....


----------



## mattawanhunter

Yes it's a shame that you can't admit I have some valid points here, I am happy for your success as a deer hunter & your contentment with the state of Michigan deer hunting Carry on and good luck! I cannot ignore what is happening in the deer hunting community and what has happened to the sport I used to love!

QUOTE="Grandriverrat, post: 6579920, member: 44510"]I am not sure why the attitudes of others around this State or any other for that matter are ruining this sport for you. I have some of the gadgets you describe above, not to make me arrogant but to help me succeed as a hunter. I too watch some of the TV shows you mention. Here is the difference. I turn the channel when I don't like what I see. I also like to shoot big bucks. Who doesn't? I will also be the first one to congratulate somebody if they shoot a button buck. I live in this State and I am proud of it and most of the sportsmen and women I have met in the 45 years of pursuing wildlife in it. Where does it end you ask? With our own attitudes because in the end that is ALL you can control. It is a shame that you let other people have this effect on you and your love of hunting
[/QUOTE]


----------



## DEDGOOSE

mattawanhunter said:


> Yes unrealistic TV footage has A LOT to do with and the Big Business of the professional Deer Hunting Networks and all their sponsors, it's a very expensive club to be in,many don't have the time or money to be in....Where does it end....?
> 
> Yes we all have stuff, many of us manage land a bit for deer but Michigan Deer Hunting attitudes are ruining a once pure and simple sport where every deer was a trophy to be celebrated, what a shame!


Honestly this entire video is awesome. Not sure what's gotten into waddell but I like. FF to 730 mark if you do not want to watch the entire thing


----------



## mattawanhunter

Yes exactly my point and reason for my post as to why I'm changing things!
"If you keep on doing the same thing you've always done you'll keep getting the same thing you always got"!



sniper said:


> I've heard all that stuff you stated above but not from peeps in my camp...Sounds like you need to identify who you spend your falls with...I don't put up with that stuff and in 38 yrs of deer hunting I haven't really had to....


----------



## retired dundo

I can't understand why there is so much fighting over deer hunting.Everyone worrying about what the other guy does.In the old days there was,nt all this fighting.Let everyone shoot what ever they want as long as it is legal.There will always be big bucks for those that want them.What kills me is some of the guys that only want big bucks shot will than brag about the button bucks they shot to fill the freezer.iam not the smartest but I though big bucks were once button bucks


----------



## Grandriverrat

DEDGOOSE said:


> Honestly this entire video is awesome. Not sure what's gotten into waddell but I like. FF to 730 mark if you do not want to watch the entire thing


Dilly! Dilly!


----------



## red wolf

For some of you that have a good group of people to share a camp with that has little to no drama that is great. I hope it never changes for you. To be honest that sounds like the way most huntcamps / hunters would collaborate with each other in the past.

But camps and acceptance for the fellow hunter has turned for the worst in recent years. Yes no one or thing should make you personally love the hunt any less. I think what most people loved about hunting was everything hunting. You did not put yourself 1st and everyone else last. You wanted to add a camp member that made a difference and you wanted that person to be successful. That is sure not the norm of today And by far not the majority and that is sad.

Most don't recall the traffic jams driving up 75 north on the 14th in november. Live news helicopters looking down at miles and miles of backed up traffic. This will never repeat itself and was a blast. The days of hunters safety class and turning 12 so you are now one of hunters not just a watcher or deer driver. Nothing was a right of passage it was earned you put in you time. When it was your time you made the best of the opportunity and you were proud you tagged a deer at any age.

But when the mentality switched if he does this and that could affect me and my success and the need for a trophy took over we lost it all. When this way of thinking took over we did a 180. Hiding trail cam pics from fellow camp members. Shrinking a camp down to the min amount of people so you can up your odds and still cover the money to hold the lease or pay the bills.

I have seen members picked on skill levels and personal available free time. The less time this guys has helps me or the worse the hunter this guy is he will never shoot one of the big ones.

People that say this is not real feel lucky because it is. For some that think this is better or the best it has ever been I would challenge that. For the guy that wants to have fun relax and sit over a bag of bait and shoot any deer you feel is worth shooting you are a blood brother and the minority in today's world. If you want to plot, stalk, bait, hunt from a box or sit on a stump god bless you thumbs up. All we need to do is respect and honor the guys next to us that wants to hunt and do things his/her way.


----------



## pigeonhunter03

retired dundo said:


> Iam waiting for someone to answer Swampbucks question.Does it take more skill sitting over a food plot than a bait pile.One of the best post


IMO It doesn't take any more skill sitting over your bait pile, food plot, travel corridor ect. all your doing is sitting there waiting for a deer. The only difference is how much work you put in. All you do for a bait pile is dump bait out, for a food plot find the right place clear it kill weeds till it up fertilize and plant it and if you want to hunt some areas between bedding and food or where ever you want to sit you need to scout out the area and find a good tree.


----------



## red wolf

What if you place bait or a plot in or on a travel path or corridor?


----------



## 357Maximum

red wolf said:


> What if you place bait or a plot in or on a travel path or corridor?



That's the way I was taught to bait. Back when I baited on public land I ALWAYS put my bait on an X of two trails MINIMUM. If there was 3 or 4 trails crossing that spot even better. I never saw the reason behind dumping bait on ground barren of sign/trails.


----------



## pigeonhunter03

thats how I grew up hunting as well If is wasnt on ag fields I would dump some bait out by deer sign.


----------



## DEDGOOSE

pigeonhunter03 said:


> thats how I grew up hunting as well If is wasnt on ag fields I would dump some bait out by deer sign.


When I was growing up you couldn't always get the dumptruck to where there was the most sign


----------



## red wolf

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/michigan/2018/01/03/michigan-deer-wasting-disease/109139526/

Again I hope to see soon the plan on baiting.


----------



## Mason_Heuker

Idc what the dnr says im baiting as much as I want


----------



## skipper34

I for one hope that baiting gets shut down statewide. But in all reality, that will never stop the baiting practice. There has been a baiting ban in place in the TB zone for a number of years but baiting is still rampant in that area. It is the same as trying to tell hunters that they cannot hunt in that area anymore. Because there are many hunters who simply do not know how to deer hunt without dumping bait.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

red wolf said:


> http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/michigan/2018/01/03/michigan-deer-wasting-disease/109139526/
> 
> Again I hope to see soon the plan on baiting.


At least this article proves all the early rut threads are true. Pregnant doe was killed during the youth hunt.


----------



## jr28schalm

skipper34 said:


> I for one hope that baiting gets shut down statewide. But in all reality, that will never stop the baiting practice. There has been a baiting ban in place in the TB zone for a number of years but baiting is still rampant in that area. It is the same as trying to tell hunters that they cannot hunt in that area anymore. Because there are many hunters who simply do not know how to deer hunt without dumping bait.


i know 2 people that got tickets for baiting in tb zone.. Both were land owners and followed from gas station...ive reported a group of hunters for years up there on state land about baiting and nothing happened....


----------



## pigeonhunter03

Mason_Heuker said:


> View attachment 290599
> Idc what the dnr says im baiting as much as I want


I think thats a little over 2 gallons


----------



## pigeonhunter03

even if they ban it I don't think it will change to some people most bait piles I come across look like they had a dump truck load of apples and sugar beets.


----------



## FREEPOP

Luv2hunteup said:


> At least this article proves all the early rut threads are true. Pregnant doe was killed during the youth hunt.


Not an early rut, an old doe that came into heat in September. Very common, though when I tell people about it, they don't believe me.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

marlin said:


> So ......my posting of a research article showing some deer are resistant to cwd (estimated 41% in Wi. core area) makes me an anti. That's real logical thinking. Good luck with you 5 min. of fame.


Huh? You an anti? No. It makes you and everyone else just posting, and doing nothing else, irrelevant. Not an anti. 

Unless you are presenting to the NRC, you’re just preaching to an echo chamber. It’s the NRC who is going to make the baiting rules.

My point about the antis is, they showed up. They are addressing the very Commission that makes the rules.

Your article is interesting and has been widely discussed. But it’s meaningless if stopping the bait ban is your objective.

If you want to address the NRC and plead that baiting should remain legal because some more deer may be CWD resistant in 50 to 250 years, I invite you to do so.


----------



## mbrewer

red wolf said:


> Great read Marlin thanks for posting.
> Letting nature run with it might be some of the best advice as we parallel with faster way to in field test / vaccinate infected areas


We'll all have been dead a thousand years before "natural selection" could self correct. The predator to prey relationship that allows the strong to survive is mostly gone. Replaced by selective harvest based on physical characteristics.


----------



## jr28schalm

motdean said:


> I am genuinely interested in understanding...and why he picked the date that he did.


Well don't hold your breath


----------



## JDHunts

marlin said:


> The sky's not falling pinefarm. I Just posted the article from a state that has had cwd since 2002. It's funny what stuck in your mind was 250 yrs .The very next line in the article was this," 50yrs in high disease areas". Pull out what fits your agenda.


That's what he's good at, and if he can't find info from MI, he'll search til he finds a state that does! lol


----------



## Pinefarm2015

JDHunts said:


> That's what he's good at, and if he can't find info from MI, he'll search til he finds a state that does! lol


You do realize that the NRC is currently considering 2 options for baiting, right?

Those options are a statewide ban or a lower peninsula ban.

It does no use to attack me for merely forwarding that information. I’m sorry to be the one to break it to some folks here.

I’m proposing delaying the total ban, as a way of giving MDNR and a PR firm time to both explain the scope of the CWD plume and the reasons why the NRC is going to ban baiting.

The DNR has some emergency rules leeway and the NRC can change rules as it sees fit.

My thinking is, the 3 year license package cycle is up again in 2021. So, instead of a total ban this year, we keep corn only to slowly draw down the water, so to speak, and that change will spark hunters asking why. That opens the door to inform hunters why a total ban is coming at the end of this 3 year license cycle.

Otherwise, if we spring a total ban on people now, without them knowing why, many will ignore the ban like they did in 2008.

If we allow corn only until 2021, the alert that baiting will be banned on January 2, 2021 can be put on the front cover of the hunting guide in 2018, 2019 and 2020, so it’s a surprise to no one and everyone has time to adjust, accordingly.


----------



## JDHunts

Pinefarm2015 said:


> You do realize that the NRC is currently considering 2 options for baiting, right?
> 
> Those options are a statewide ban or a lower peninsula ban.
> 
> It does no use to attack me for merely forwarding that information. I’m sorry to be the one to break it to some folks here.
> 
> I’m proposing delaying the total ban, as a way of giving MDNR and a PR firm time to both explain the scope of the CWD plume and the reasons why the NRC is going to ban baiting.
> 
> The DNR has some emergency rules leeway and the NRC can change rules as it sees fit.
> 
> My thinking is, the 3 year license package cycle is up again in 2021. So, instead of a total ban this year, we keep corn only to slowly draw down the water, so to speak, and that change will spark hunters asking why. That opens the door to inform hunters why a total ban is coming at the end of this 3 year license cycle.
> 
> Otherwise, if we spring a total ban on people now, without them knowing why, many will ignore the ban like they did in 2008.
> 
> If we allow corn only until 2021, the alert that baiting will be banned on January 2, 2021 can be put on the front cover of the hunting guide in 2018, 2019 and 2020, so it’s a surprise to no one and everyone has time to adjust, accordingly.


My bad, I thought you were the NRC


----------



## jr28schalm

Knew it was a spin feeder..lol...corn only


----------



## swampbuck

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Huh? You an anti? No. It makes you and everyone else just posting, and doing nothing else, irrelevant. Not an anti.
> 
> Unless you are presenting to the NRC, you’re just preaching to an echo chamber. It’s the NRC who is going to make the baiting rules.
> 
> My point about the antis is, they showed up. They are addressing the very Commission that makes the rules.
> 
> Your article is interesting and has been widely discussed. But it’s meaningless if stopping the bait ban is your objective.
> 
> If you want to address the NRC and plead that baiting should remain legal because some more deer may be CWD resistant in 50 to 250 years, I invite you to do so.


Some people can not go to the meetings due to work or other commitments

But you can call or email the assistant, and your message will be given to each commissioner.

Or you can contact each one directly.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65145---,00.html


----------



## jr28schalm

swampbuck said:


> Some people can not go to the meetings due to work or other commitments
> 
> But you can call or email the assistant, and your message will be given to each commissioner.
> 
> Or you can contact each one directly.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65145---,00.html


Thnx swampy, right to the point and no copy and paste b.s


----------



## 357Maximum

marlin said:


> So ......my posting of a research article showing some deer are resistant to cwd (estimated 41% in Wi. core area) makes me an anti. That's real logical thinking. Good luck with you 5 min. of fame.



Does is matter if they are resistant if they are still carriers that can pass it on down the line to our family's table?


----------



## 357Maximum

QDMAMAN said:


> Hey! Tell it to the judge! :lol:



Won't have to, I have zero use for bait piles or bait plots and use neither. I knew where the deer would enter and exit my property several years before the deer did, sometimes plans and designs actually work when starting with a blank canvas. BUT..... I once convinced a judge I was not speeding on icy roads when I sheared off a couple of 8X8 posts after leaving the roadway in my truck however....it all depends on the judge I suppose. :lol:


----------



## JDHunts

swampbuck said:


> Some people can not go to the meetings due to work or other commitments
> 
> But you can call or email the assistant, and your message will be given to each commissioner.
> 
> Or you can contact each one directly.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65145---,00.html


Much appreciated Swampy, useful info!


----------



## 357Maximum

motdean said:


> I am genuinely interested in understanding...and why he picked the date that he did.



Somehow I feel JR had the correct answer on that one. :lol:


----------



## Pinefarm2015

swampbuck said:


> Some people can not go to the meetings due to work or other commitments
> 
> But you can call or email the assistant, and your message will be given to each commissioner.
> 
> Or you can contact each one directly.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65145---,00.html


Like we hear about those who cannot make midweek openers, if it’s important enough to people, they’ll make time. 

If they can’t make time, they could look for another career. Lol


----------



## Pinefarm2015

JDHunts said:


> My bad, I thought you were the NRC


Nope. This is who you might want to learn about. They will be considering some big changes over the next couple months. 
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65145_65545---,00.html


----------



## JDHunts

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Nope. This is who you might want to learn about. They will be considering some big changes over the next couple months.
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65145_65545---,00.html


Swampy posted that 2 hrs ago!


----------



## swampbuck

Go to a meeting and see how focused they are on the people speaking....not very.

A email or letter allows you to deliver your message, ask questions etc.....Without the 5 minute buzzer looming.

And in some instances there maybe be some NRC members who you don't want to include in the conversation, for various reasons.

The majority is 4


----------



## Pinefarm2015

swampbuck said:


> Go to a meeting and see how focused they are on the people speaking....not very.
> 
> A email or letter allows you to d


They were focused on my speech. In fact, I was surprised when the Director of MDNR quoted back a couple important stats to me, in a conversation after the meeting. An NRC member liked my suggestion and even thought is was worth discussing expanding it.

Now, nothing may come from it, but they were obviously listening to my speech.

I will admit some of the other speakers were pretty far out there. The anti hunter crane people were like Family Guy caricatures of 70 year old hippies. Lol. I was waiting for an interpretive dance of the Sand Hill mating ritual. Lol.


----------



## swampbuck

I heard about your proposal. And I agree. In fact it should have been like that from the beginning I.M.O.

......I can't believe we agree on something...smh


----------



## Pinefarm2015

swampbuck said:


> I heard about your proposal. And I agree. In fact it should have been like that from the beginning I.M.O.
> 
> ......I can't believe we agree on something...smh


See, that’s a start. Let’s agree what we agree on for a while. There’s more common ground than you think. 

We all need to find as much common ground as we can.


----------



## sureshot006

mbrewer said:


> We'll all have been dead a thousand years before "natural selection" could self correct. The predator to prey relationship that allows the strong to survive is mostly gone. Replaced by selective harvest based on physical characteristics.


You watched Idiocracy, too?


----------



## red wolf

I like the idea of a slow removal of needed vs a knee jerk reaction to stop all at one time. It is better to plan and learn vs assume.


----------



## multibeard

The way the sportsmen of the state fight among them selves it is purely ridiculous. Just look back at the continuing arguments put forth by the bow hunters wanting all of the rut to them selves.

If push comes to shove and there is a referendum put on the ballot to end hunting we are gong to lose. Look back at the dove ballot where hunters would not support those that wanted to hunt doves that would not back those that did.

It will be an almost impossible task to win. We will be fighting the antis with all of their big dollars to flood the big cities that are full of people that have no idea what the real world out side of the cities really works. The antis will brain wash them with a lot of lies and they will not know any better so they will vote against hunting.

I have been fighting the antis since before PETA first hit the shores of the USA from the UK. I have watched them get stronger while I have watched the sportsmen of Michigan fight amongst them selves. SAD but true.

If you do not think that the antis are watching all of this infighting amongst the sportsmen of Michigan you need to get your heads out of the sand.


----------



## ridgewalker

The anti frog thing by the crane folks was hilarious!


----------



## swampbuck

red wolf said:


> I like the idea of a slow removal of needed vs a knee jerk reaction to stop all at one time. It is better to plan and learn vs assume.


I would agree on all the misc. stuff.

But there still need to be an extreme herd reduction in the zone and buffer, Eradication preferably. That would maybe buy enough time to figure out a plan.

As it spreads, the chance for a solution recedes. It sucks for the people in that area, no doubt about it.

Remember, whith TB one whole ring of counties were eventually lifted. Because it was knocked down quickly.


----------



## Balls deep in a doe

GIDEON said:


> As for me, I am hoping and praying that they will impose a total ban on all baiting and food plots.


Agreed


----------



## Pinefarm2015

ridgewalker said:


> The anti frog thing by the crane folks was hilarious!


Were you there? Or did you watch it live streaming? 

If there, please introduce yourself. 

Some of you may be surprised to learn that Jim Sweeney and I have been talking quite a bit about common ground between all of us. I contacted him. In the era of CWD, it’s time for us to put childish grudges behind us and work on what we can agree on. Jim agrees 100%. 

Jim was extremely helpful on my presentation and even edited it for me, to come in with 7 seconds to spare. 

As many know from my long winded posts, it’s easy to shotgun pattern 3 different subjects in 10 minutes. But boiling down a concise theme in 5 minutes is a lot harder than it looks. 

There were several other points that Jim and I agreed on and that I wanted to mention in my 5 minutes, but there just wasn’t time. 

If Jim has the time, I hope he can look over any future speaking times I sign up for.


----------



## jatc

swampbuck said:


> I would agree on all the misc. stuff.
> 
> But there still need to be an extreme herd reduction in the zone and buffer, Eradication preferably. That would maybe buy enough time to figure out a plan.
> 
> As it spreads, the chance for a solution recedes. It sucks for the people in that area, no doubt about it.
> 
> Remember, whith TB one whole ring of counties were eventually lifted. Because it was knocked down quickly.



Yes I agree. The best course of action at this point would be to wipe out the entire herd anywhere that CWD has NOT been found.

Think about it, "the zone" has already been tainted and killing every single deer, predatory bird, and scavenger can't fix that now. The prions are already there.

Makes much more sense to wipe out the herd BEFORE CWD can spread into the area. If there are no cervids to spread to, it can't spread out more than it already has. 

Now THAT will actually buy some "time to figure out a plan" to eliminate the disease and then in 40 years or so we can allow the untainted areas to repopulate.

Since TB only lasts for a short period without a host, "the plan" of cutting back the deer herd in the NLP was somewhat effective. With CWD, not so much. 


Anybody else want to pull the "Man, sure glad it isn't in MY county! Sure sucks for those where it has been found." card? All it takes is ONE positive and your township goes on the map too, along with the rest of the county and the next over for a "buffer". You really think that it will not effect an area over twice the size of the current "zone" if mandatory testing was statewide next year?

Any talk of eradication in a geographical area larger than about 100 square miles is a total, absolute, impossibility. Just how many square miles is the currently known infected area again? This "draw a circle and kill the deer" plan IS NOT WORKING.


----------



## ridgewalker

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Were you there? Or did you watch it live streaming?


I watched the live stream. If I am there, you will be able to pick me out with my chair or dual canes, lol. I wish they had more meetings on the east side of the state so I could get someone to drive me to the meetings.


----------



## swampbuck

jatc said:


> Yes I agree. The best course of action at this point would be to wipe out the entire herd anywhere that CWD has NOT been found.
> 
> Think about it, "the zone" has already been tainted and killing every single deer, predatory bird, and scavenger can't fix that now. The prions are already there.
> 
> Makes much more sense to wipe out the herd BEFORE CWD can spread into the area. If there are no cervids to spread to, it can't spread out more than it already has.
> 
> Now THAT will actually buy some "time to figure out a plan" to eliminate the disease and then in 40 years or so we can allow the untainted areas to repopulate.
> 
> Since TB only lasts for a short period without a host, "the plan" of cutting back the deer herd in the NLP was somewhat effective. With CWD, not so much.
> 
> 
> Anybody else want to pull the "Man, sure glad it isn't in MY county! Sure sucks for those where it has been found." card? All it takes is ONE positive and your township goes on the map too, along with the rest of the county and the next over for a "buffer". You really think that it will not effect an area over twice the size of the current "zone" if mandatory testing was statewide next year?
> 
> Any talk of eradication in a geographical area larger than about 100 square miles is a total, absolute, impossibility. Just how many square miles is the currently known infected area again? This "draw a circle and kill the deer" plan IS NOT WORKING.


I agree it's much different than TB. But you have to keep it from spreading out. And the zone is going to be much bigger next year.

As far as playing the it sucks card. I have been there, Roscommon and Crawford were part of the buffer zone. It sucked then, and even now the numbers are kept low. I see daily reports from the SLP reporting more deer than many of us see all season.

I wouldn't wish that on anyone....but I also wouldn't sacrifice the rest of the state for my benefit either.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

red wolf said:


> I like the idea of a slow removal of needed vs a knee jerk reaction to stop all at one time. It is better to plan and learn vs assume.


It’s not a knee jerk reaction. A bait ban under these circumstances has been in formal plans for everyone to read for 15 years. That said, now that we are here, it seems evident that hunters may need a little more time to adjust to the new reality.


----------



## jr28schalm

I quit opiates cold turkey and you clowns want to wean off dumping bait...i better start a ba group asap


----------



## skipper34

Pinefarm2015 said:


> It’s not a knee jerk reaction. A bait ban under these circumstances has been in formal plans for everyone to read for 15 years. That said, now that we are here, it seems evident that hunters may need a little more time to adjust to the new reality.


In other words, give the baiters some time to actually learn how to hunt deer. I can see already the mass exodus to either quit hunting altogether or hunt out of state where baiting is legal. Or worse, keep hunting illegally like so many are doing now in the TB zone. No amount of mollycoddling is going to change any of this.


----------



## red wolf

I still say money is needed more vs anything. My opinion is the pay to play method. If you feel the need to bait 2 gals you need to buy a hefty price license per DMU. This would fund more for CWD vs questionably spread the disease.


----------



## jjlrrw

Pinefarm2015 said:


> It’s not a knee jerk reaction. A bait ban under these circumstances has been in formal plans for everyone to read for 15 years. That said, now that we are here, it seems evident that hunters may need a little more time to adjust to the new reality.


The formal plans I read was "If there is any deer tested positive for CWD within 50 miles of the Michigan border baiting for that peninsula will be banned" Then as reality started to kick in it went to 10 miles from the border and a baiting ban with a 10 mile radius around the area CWD was found. Just do it!!! A 100% baiting ban, a baiting ban is not going to make it worst, baiting could


----------



## jatc

swampbuck said:


> I agree it's much different than TB. But you have to keep it from spreading out. And the zone is going to be much bigger next year.
> 
> As far as playing the it sucks card. I have been there, Roscommon and Crawford were part of the buffer zone. It sucked then, and even now the numbers are kept low. I see daily reports from the SLP reporting more deer than many of us see all season.
> 
> I wouldn't wish that on anyone....but I also wouldn't sacrifice the rest of the state for my benefit either.



Full disclosure..... I own a camp in the Pigeon River country as well as a farm in Montcalm County. My Camp just off the Old Vanderbilt Road near the Sturgeon River is now just a fishing camp. We don’t waste our time deer hunting there anymore.

I was one of the guys in the early 2000’s that “did my duty” and killed off as many deer as I could at the request of the DNR for “the good of the herd” knowing I was ruining my hunting for the future, and for what? TB is STILL a problem and always will be as long as there are cattle in the NELP. Destroying my deer camp didn’t really change that like they said it would.

So now 15 years later you think I’m supposed to be “all in” to engage in another fool’s errand?

I can deal with low deer densities, grew up hunting less than 10 dpsm in the western UP, but the whole “eradication” idea is a joke. Nowhere has that policy worked yet to contain CWD in as large of a geographic area as we are dealing with. Maybe it could be done in an area the size of one township, but we are dealing with 500+ square miles of known positive townships. Throw in a “buffer” and your looking at easily 1500 square miles.

The DNR/NRC had their chance to enact the CWD plan years ago and instead they balked and backtracked. Baiting should already have been banned years ago statewide, seasons liberalized, and much more emphasis on testing across the entire state before this last year. It was written into policy 15 years ago! They bowed and dropped the ball when they should have enacted it fully.

I have zero faith that destroying my hunting AGAIN will do anything but delay the inevitable spread across the entire state as long as we are just rehashing failed policies from other states. That’s why I said to kill off the areas that haven’t been infected yet. This would be much more effective in the long run if having a future viable deer population is the goal. If trying to eradicate the deer in an infected area is the plan, than that means eventually we will have to kill every deer in the state because we could kill every infected animal, but the next generation of deer will just pick it up from the tainted environment anyway and we didn’t really fix anything.

Proactive vs. reactive policy is how you deal with this type of thing. Growing up in farm country I learned that if you had rats in a grain bin that it was impossible to kill all the rats. Kill 10, and the next day ten more would take their place. Remove the grain though and you wouldn’t see any more rats. There is a lesson to be learned there. Remove the grain before the rats show up and you won’t see any of them to begin with.


----------



## JDHunts

jjlrrw said:


> The formal plans I read was "If there is any deer tested positive for CWD within 50 miles of the Michigan border baiting for that peninsula will be banned" Then as reality started to kick in it went to 10 miles from the border and a baiting ban with a 10 mile radius around the area CWD was found. Just do it!!! A 100% baiting ban, a baiting ban is not going to make it worst, baiting could


Your exactly right, they should stick with the original plan, these ideas about gradually banning bait are ridiculous, we voted to give them the authority to manage the herd using science. Science says baiting spreads cwd, so do the job, the right thing, and ban it statewide. Tippy toeing, pussyfooting, around a disease like cwd is nuts. I'm sure glad some of the poster on this site don't give advice to cancer doctors.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Like we hear about those who cannot make midweek openers, if it’s important enough to people, they’ll make time.
> 
> If they can’t make time, they could look for another career. Lol


Midweek openers are preferred by the DNR. In 2018 every special hunt opened on a Thursday. The DNRs surveys show hunters don’t like Saturday openers. Spreading out pressure helps with harvest.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

Luv2hunteup said:


> Midweek openers are preferred by the DNR. In 2018 every special hunt opened on a Thursday. The DNRs surveys show hunters don’t like Saturday openers. Spreading out pressure helps with harvest.


Um, no. They had a very limited amount of emergency days they could add and they wanted to maximize check station time, when in place. 

They specifically did not run the season in one longer block because participation would be so low on a Tuesday or Wednesday. They wanted the seasons to take in 2 weekends because weekends get more participation. That info is from MDNR. 

Any deer processor will tell you that participation and harvest is higher on weekends, season long.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

jjlrrw said:


> The formal plans I read was "If there is any deer tested positive for CWD within 50 miles of the Michigan border baiting for that peninsula will be banned" Then as reality started to kick in it went to 10 miles from the border and a baiting ban with a 10 mile radius around the area CWD was found. Just do it!!! A 100% baiting ban, a baiting ban is not going to make it worst, baiting could


They aren’t totally sure about that quite yet. If we lose 20% more of our hunters in 4 years because of a total ban, that’s probably worse. 

If anything, we need to figure out regulation tweaks to increase participation, recruitment, retention and reactivation, along with slowly drawing down deer density in the LP. We’ve seen hunter reaction to a swift reduction in herd density and it’s not good, long term. 

Slow and steady may prove to be the best policy for a large group of individuals that abhor swift changes to their traditions. Some go so far as to attach near religious significance to arbitrary things like season dates or the positions of wheels and triggers on bows. 

But as we move on, recall all of those who pounded the table on how allowing elevated stands in gun season or allowing Sunday hunting was going to destroy the sport. They disappeared shortly after the changes were made. 

We’re going to have to adjust to whatever changes are coming. We always have. 
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/DEER_REGULATION_HISTORY_210705_7.pdf


----------



## red wolf

Did not hear about CWD until QDMA was a house hold name


----------



## Luv2hunteup

sniper said:


> Dramatize much???
> 
> Last time I checked every state that has cwd still hunts and has for multiple decades....
> Some guys here are afraid of spiders to...Unreal...
> 
> Am I allowed to say some guys need to grow a set on here?


This should help you visualize what will happen over time if the DNR doesn’t take drastic action soon. I’m all for 24/365 hunting in the 6 CWD infected counties plus every adjoining county. It’s a extremely small price to pay to slow the spread across the state.


----------



## jr28schalm

red wolf said:


> Did not hear about CWD until QDMA was a house hold name


Oh come on, I heard it before wonder sparky


----------



## JDHunts

General Ottsc said:


> You're probably right. Baiting in all likelihood won't stop even if they make it illegal. And there aren't enough COs or DNR to cover so much state land to enforce it.


With that logic, what game laws can be enforced with our current CO's.


----------



## Waif

357Maximum said:


> And some "better hunters and "sprotsmen" are counting on just that to happen, now that their favorite NRC wish is not likely to be granted. Not too hard to read between the lines, they ain't very good at hiding their desires when their fingers are allowed to type freely. CWD is truly just a "distraction" to a lot of those sorts, they have come right out and admitted it as a united front at least once. Individually they cannot hide their desires for a European like hunting system, it's like they are not even trying to hide it anymore...so they got that going for em.


Hunting system is a done deal via evolution and land ownership.
The D.N.R. controls about 20% of the land. Much of which allows unlimited hunter numbers.
Who does not understand that does not hold a candle to private land hunting experience in comparison? Both in "quality" of the experience ,and the difference of being able to manipulate habitat.

I was poo-poo'd for the most part when mentioning the Euro model in the past. Still am not seeing that great of difference ,except the authorities in game management do not assign quota's of what animal and what sex of animal to landowners here to retain their "privilege". Regardless of landowner preferences.

We want the state to make choices and decisions to make "everyone's"(?) hunting better. 
Yet while wanting both help , and enforcement of regulations, and regulations humoring varied type land owners and users ....We want that entity that creates regulation to do so using those same varied scruples across the board. Or at least along the lines of the majority ,what ever that is defined as until licence buyers are divvied up according to public vs private.
Why those two? Because one has control over access and habitat manipulation while the other does not.

Baiting is either a low budget food source on private ,or the only food source allowed to be "created" on some public lands by individuals. A big difference though....
That does not matter to many.
So take that minority that has bait as an only option and set their minority butts aside from the argument ,and call the feel good regulation a success in reducing disease transmission.
Private land owners in the majority of land ownership do not "need" bait.
They need a law to tell them that ,apparently.Or ,to tell their cheap,bait using , non plotting neighbors that. 

An issue? Feeding deer to attract them for hunting purposes and people objecting to the practice is nothing new.
Taking the practice away from those who use it ,and defining it as not grown and left rooted on site food is only a public land issue.
To private land owners (the approx. 80% of land ) it simply means plant something.

For the state to ban bait everywhere is no big deal. Like all laws ,only the enforcing of it is real work. Even if it does not get enforced fully ,why blame the state? They have their own 20% to control. And after all ,who is at fault for feeding deer?


----------



## Justin

JDHunts said:


> With that logic, what game laws can be enforced with our current CO's.


Not many when it comes to private property.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

357Maximum said:


> Probably had a lot to do with folks not giving two $H*** about what their neighbor was doing and wasting valuable time trying to control said neighbor.


A 3” APR controls the actions of people just as much a 3pt APR. One guides people into shooting the first buck they see usually resulting in the majority of hunters asking the state for a 3pt APR. 

Conversely, the majority of hunters with a 3pt APR are not asking the state to return to a 3” APR. So who is controlling who?


----------



## JDHunts

Pinefarm2015 said:


> A 3” APR controls the actions of people just as much a 3pt APR. One guides people into shooting the first buck they see usually resulting in the majority of hunters asking the state for a 3pt APR.
> 
> Conversely, the majority of hunters with a 3pt APR are not asking the state to return to a 3” APR. So who is controlling who?


The majority of hunters in a targeted survey? You can't make the claim of the majority of hunters until all hunters are surveyed, and yes, in this day in age that can be done.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

Luv2hunteup said:


> This should help you visualize what will happen over time if the DNR doesn’t take drastic action soon. I’m all for 24/365 hunting in the 6 CWD infected counties plus every adjoining county. It’s a extremely small price to pay to slow the spread across the state.
> View attachment 291958


The same with banning bait statewide, if we are to have any ban. Yoopers have to sacrifice too. It’s a small price to pay.

We can’t encourage retailers to sell bait anywhere. During the 2008 ban, recall the attitude was LP hunters still bought bait in pre-ban numbers, but with a wink and a grin, said they were traveling to the UP for an afternoon sit.

If we don’t ban bait, then that’s fine. But if we are going for the bigger ban, then ban it statewide.

They’ll likely find it in the UP in 5 years anyway.

The quick eradication plan was tried in the NELP and in Wisconsin. It backfired with hunters. Instead, a slower, more gradual reduction will likely work better. 

The Wisconsin plan revealed that if you shoot deer in a massive way, quickly, hunters will abandon the area and be slow to return, leaving high density herds to return in 3 years time, with far less hunters returning, leaving a higher prevalence rate in its wake.


----------



## Justin

Banning baiting is not the same as ending baiting. If some hunters have to give up something then all hunters should give up something. If baiting goes, then so should plotting. It's a small price to pay!


----------



## Luv2hunteup

Pinefarm2015 said:


> The same with banning bait statewide, if we are to have any ban. Yoopers have to sacrifice too. It’s a small price to pay.
> 
> We can’t encourage retailers to sell bait anywhere. During the 2008 ban, recall the attitude was LP hunters still bought bait in pre-ban numbers, but with a wink and a grin, said they were traveling to the UP for an afternoon sit.
> 
> If we don’t ban bait, then that’s fine. But if we are going for the bigger ban, then ban it statewide.
> 
> They’ll likely find it in the UP in 5 years anyway.


It’s not a matter of if just when. That’s why approximately 1/3 of the deer tested statewide outside the disease zones come from the UP. The good thing about UP testing is that a much higher percentage of the deer population has been tested.

Winter migration study of WUP deer herd is going on right now to help predict possible routes of transmission. Winter complex location are known so they are trying to connect the dots on where the summer ranges are that use those complexes.


----------



## JDHunts

Pinefarm2015 said:


> The same with banning bait statewide, if we are to have any ban. Yoopers have to sacrifice too. It’s a small price to pay.
> 
> We can’t encourage retailers to sell bait anywhere. During the 2008 ban, recall the attitude was LP hunters still bought bait in pre-ban numbers, but with a wink and a grin, said they were traveling to the UP for an afternoon sit.
> 
> If we don’t ban bait, then that’s fine. But if we are going for the bigger ban, then ban it statewide.
> 
> They’ll likely find it in the UP in 5 years anyway.


Exactly ri


Justin said:


> Banning baiting is not the same as ending baiting. If some hunters have to give up something then all hunters should give up something. If baiting goes, then so should plotting. It's a small price to pay!


I don't see it as taking something from hunters, I see it as trying to protect a resouce from disease, if it has no effect on disease spreading, you can dump a truckload and I won't say a word. Bait pile and plot is the same thing. imo


----------



## 357Maximum

Justin said:


> Banning baiting is not the same as ending baiting. If some hunters have to give up something then all hunters should give up something. If baiting goes, then so should plotting. It's a small price to pay!



Without re writing private property laws and throwing out the constitution of the state and nation ending plotting is IMPOSSIBLE. The low hanging fruit is baiting, and making that go away is easily do-able, that's why it is being targeted.


----------



## JDHunts

357Maximum said:


> Without re writing private property laws and throwing out the constitution of the state and nation ending plotting is IMPOSSIBLE. The low hanging fruit is baiting, and making that go away is easily do-able, that's why it is being targeted.


So it's like the mapr people, if there isn't a law saying it, I can't do it. So basically, even though it can spread disease, private land owners will still plant. Nice!


----------



## JDHunts

Luv2hunteup said:


> It’s not a matter of if just when. That’s why approximately 1/3 of the deer tested statewide outside the disease zones come from the UP. The good thing about UP testing is that a much higher percentage of the deer population has been tested.
> 
> Winter migration study of WUP deer herd is going on right now to help predict possible routes of transmission. Winter complex location are known so they are trying to connect the dots on where the summer ranges are that use those complexes.


Do you know if they did implement a bait ban, would that include tribal folks?


----------



## FullQuiver

357Maximum said:


> Without re writing private property laws and throwing out the constitution of the state and nation ending plotting is IMPOSSIBLE.


As it should be.. I am a small scale farmer and shouldn't have to worry how I plant or harvest any crop because of worry that what I do may be interpreted as baiting... I have small alfalfa field under 5 acres and more than a few times planted and will continue planting rye to build up my crappy sand blow of a farm.. I also usually plant corn(usually only 2-4 acres) every other year or so for my livestock.

Should I make my farming decisions because of what is most productive or because deer hunters can't get their act together... Might be hard for some to understand but deer hunting doesn't and shouldn't drive lives like you're suggesting..


----------



## Pinefarm2015

Justin said:


> Banning baiting is not the same as ending baiting. *If some hunters have to give up something then all hunters should give up something*. If baiting goes, then so should plotting. It's a small price to pay!


And there’s the reoccurring objection to any bait ban, in a nutshell. The truth comes out at last. It’s always been about a tit for tat retaliation against other hunters, and not the fighting of disease, that’s at the bottom of the quest for revenge when the biologists request a bait ban, while at the same time promoting habitat improvements on private land. Revenge is never a good deer disease mitigation policy.

But that’s not how logic works. Baiting and food plots are never mutually exclusive. It isn’t as if someone who plants a food plot doesn’t also use bait. It’s not an “either/or” proposition.

If baiting is banned, then everyone does give up something. Everyone has to give up the option of legally using bait as defined by every state in The Union. Everyone is impacted by a bait ban. Not half the hunters, but all hunters.

Don’t forget, most landowners with food plots also use bait, because bait works differently than food plots. And most landowners don’t plant food plots and won’t bother to plant food plots, ban or no ban. So a bait ban impacts private land owners far more than public land hunters because the vast majority of Michigan deer hunters use bait, on private lands, but don’t and won’t plant food plots. Ever.

Any hunter in the state has the opportunity to plant food plots. Anyone, including those who don’t own land, can lease hunting rights on 5, 10 or 20 acres for a very reasonable fee and attach rights to plant a 1/4 acre plot. But even then, only a small minority of private land deer hunters bother to make the effort to plant a field, big or small.

There’s also no prohibition on hunters doing a little off season legwork and obtaining permission on private land, then offering to do all the work associated with a food plot and also buying the seed.

Some senior citizen landowners who hunt their own land would love to have someone plant a food plot for them, in exchange for being able to kill a doe for the freezer.

MDNR has been clear on the differences.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10363_14518_65243_65249-341854--,00.html

“With improved habitat that attracts deer to more desirable areas, the herd should be healthier, *hunters are more likely to see and harvest deer*, and improved habitat should spread the herd out more across the landscape and away from agricultural operations...*These outcomes will not only help to decrease the possibility of disease transmission from deer to deer, but it will also help to pull deer away from areas of high concentration*, such as pasture and row crop fields. In doing so, participants will help to deter crop damage from local farms and will assist in the eventual eradication of the disease in the wild deer herd.

Deer are traveling constantly, that's no secret, whether it's to or from winter range or summer range or from bedding to feeding areas," Piccolo said. "A lot of times they're crossing public land to get to these project areas. When we score the projects, if the land adjoins public land on four, three or even two sides, it scores higher and is more likely to get funded."

Although there have been some eyebrows raised about using public funds for projects on private land, Piccolo points out that 76 percent of land in Michigan is privately owned, so good habitat management on these properties greatly impacts the overall quality of the state's deer herd.

"*Public land is not getting the short end of the deal," Piccolo said. "The far majority of money generated by hunting license sales is earmarked for the management of state land*. But we'll never reach the full potential for managing wildlife habitat in this state by only working on public land."


----------



## JDHunts

FullQuiver said:


> As it should be.. I am a small scale farmer and shouldn't have to worry how I plant or harvest any crop because of worry that what I do may be interpreted as baiting... I have small alfalfa field under 5 acres and more than a few times planted and will continue planting rye to build up my crappy sand blow of a farm.. I also usually plant corn every other year or so for my livestock.
> 
> Should I make my farming decisions because of what is most productive or because deer hunters can't get their act together...


I understand what you mean, I grew up farming, but I've never ever heard a farmer refer to a field or crop as a food plot. We also never left some at harvest for the deer, in fact we used to shoot them starting in Aug. to keep the crops from damage.


----------



## FullQuiver

The bigger issue is if I plant a crop who is to say if it is or isn't a food plot.. Because my relatively small acreage of anything I plant can and will draw deer like a magnet here as well.. Mostly because we have an overpopulation of deer here locally.. 

I have a friend and close neighbor who planted a dozen smaller fields totalling 70ish acres and he only harvested 1300 bushels of corn. Thats nuts, the vast majority of his fields being lost to the deer.. Mostly because we had a complete failure of every kind of mast crop here locally and corn was all these deer could find... Any one of those small fields could be called a food plot, several weren't even completely picked because it was just a waste of man and equipment hours.. The reality is bait isn't necessary to kill deer (neither is plotting) so why all of the fuss.. 

I hear food plotting and habitat improvement being called deer farming all of the time on these forums, because it so closely resembles regular farming. Who gets to split the hairs on this so deer hunting can be "fair" is ridiculous.. I just don't want to be caught in the middle of bureaucratic blunders trying to farm my ground... Banning baiting is easily accomplished banning anything else wanders into infringement of my right to farm and I will fight it tooth and nail..


----------



## JDHunts

FullQuiver said:


> The bigger issue is if I plant a crop who is to say if it is or isn't a food plot.. Because my relatively small acreage of anything I plant can and will draw deer like a magnet here as well.. Mostly because we have an overpopulation of deer here locally..
> 
> I have a friend and close neighbor who planted a dozen smaller fields totalling 70ish acres and he only harvested 1300 bushels of corn. Thats nuts, the vast majority of his fields being lost to the deer.. Mostly because we had a complete failure of every kind of mast crop here locally and corn was all these deer could find... Any one of those small fields could be called a food plot, several weren't even completely picked because it was just a waste of man and equipment hours.. The reality is bait isn't necessary to kill deer (neither is plotting) so why all of the fuss..
> 
> I hear food plotting and habitat improvement being called deer farming all of the time on these forums, because it so closely resembles regular farming. Who gets to split the hairs on this so deer hunting can be "fair" is ridiculous.. I just don't want to be caught in the middle of bureaucratic blunders trying to farm my ground... Banning baiting is easily accomplished banning anything else wanders into infringement of my right to farm and I will fight it tooth and nail..


They still give out crop damage permits, call them out and show them the damages, then you can grow your crops and shoot the deer eating them. There is no single solution that everyone will be ok with. When disease shows up in your area, possibly you'll look at it differently. You look at this like nobody's going to tell you what you can or can't do on your land, while it's really brainstorming how to keep this disease from spreading. Personally, I hope it never shows up remotely close to wherever you are, but from the data they put out, it spreads indiscriminately.


----------



## Dimner

Pinefarm2015 said:


> The fact that some are still obsessed about the supposed class warfare of the bait ban, *as if the bait ban doesn’t impact private land hunters more than anyone else,*


I'm confused. How does a bait ban impact private land hunters more than public land hunters? Or are you saying this is due to the private land hunters having the option to food plot?


----------



## Pinefarm2015

swampbuck said:


> That's were the problem lies, the MDNR is focusing on one vector, while ignoring many. There will be no success doing that.


No they aren’t. They seem to be moving ahead with the CWD Response Plan, according to the Plan. 

In CWD zones, they are lifting APR’s to try to kill as many bucks as yearlings and as many total bucks as possible. 

They are allowing both tags to be “either sex” so there’s no reason to do anything but shoot a deer on sight. 

They are increasing antlerless quotas and discounting antlerless fees. 

They are restricting the movement of deer from out of state. 

They are banning the use of bait, to deal with the increase of carry capacity where baiting and supplemental feeding is employed. 

I’m sorry if some misinterpreted what the Response Plan said, but the Plan is pretty explicit. 

If anyone has ever seen the movie Zero Dark Thirty, you’ll recall how the investigation got completely sidetracked because they had the wrong picture of a Jihadist that led them down the wrong path for months. 

The same thing is happening with a few people misinterpreting what the Response Plan prescribes. They have, in a sense, the wrong picture. If the Response Plan writers wanted to add habitat improvements into the Plan, they would have put them into the Plan. 

Instead, the writers explicitly mention baiting and feeding on several occasions. They also explicitly mention the concerns of concentrating deer on “fewer patches of good habitat.”

Anyone care to hazard a guess on how one increases patches of “good habitat”?

Lastly, go read some of the references in the Response Plan. The Plan is a synopsis of the references. In the references used in the now infamous “carry capacity” distraction, the biologist states the following...
FOOD PLOTS DO NOT INCREASE CARRYING CAPACITY OF THE HABITAT-THEY ARE A SUPPLEMENT TO NATURAL VEGETATION.

Now, one could argue that they aren’t doing everything because deer based urine scents aren’t being banned. Fair enough. I’m for that ban too. But from talking to the MDNR Disease specialist, he didn’t have much concern because the farms the urine comes from are tested all the time.


----------



## jr28schalm

It's all the baiters faults for cwd spreading, God that feels great saying that..ban them disese piles


----------



## Pinefarm2015

Dimner said:


> I'm confused. How does a bait ban impact private land hunters more than public land hunters? Or are you saying this is due to the private land hunters having the option to food plot?


On a past survey, only 13% of Michigan deer hunters exclusively hunt public land. Most deer hunters hunt private land. 

Given public land hunters often don’t want to bait for other hunters when they are absent, my anecdotal evidence from years of owning a sport shop in a county with lots of public land is that a lower percentage of public land hunters bait, compared to private land hunters. 

So, you have a much larger pool of private land hunters and a higher percentage of private land hunters that bait. 

Given the topography and lack of implements, most landowners really don’t have a legitimate option of planting food plots. 

In my area, it’s mostly all woods, other than the long established farmland. 

So even if a landowner timbers his land, he still has 100’s of stumps to contend with. Even with a bulldozer, 100 big oak stumps are a nightmare. 

I was lucky because where I have food plots, it was mature row pines. But even then, I had to wait 5 years to let the stumps soften up so they could pop out with a bulldozer. 

My point is, many landowners aren’t going to timber their land at all, most won’t then hire in a bulldozer to clear the stumps and most won’t buy a tractor or ATV and all the implements to plant food plots. Then he isn’t going to incur the extra costs of lime and fertilizer needed, since most northern hunting land is on poorer soils. 

A few will, but not many. I was in outdoor retail for a long time. Food plot related sales are a blip. Trail cams, on the other hand, are big movers at a place like Cabela’s. Same with treestands and tent blinds. 

I think people have a view of food plots from what they see on TV. But they must keep in mind, most of those shows are from big plantations down south, big private properties in states like Illinois, Kansas and Iowa or big ranches in Texas that make money from deer hunting. Planting food plots are part of the business model and baked into the fees. 

The typical guy that has 10-20 wooded acres and a trailer in Michigan isn’t going to go thru all the steps necessary to do food plots. He also isn’t going to spend all the money on plots, if he drives up from metro Detroit a couple weekends a Fall, to deer hunt. Most guys are golfing or fishing in August, not screwing around with food plots. 

So in the end, the vast majority of private land hunters won’t be hunting over a food plot, even if bait is banned. While they might have the option on paper, less will take that option, in practice.


----------



## Yamirider

swampbuck said:


> It seems like some are more interested in eliminating baiting, and Competition from other hunters. Than they are about helping to stop the spread of disease to the rest of the state...pretty sad really.
> 
> Now we see what QDM, stewardship, private management, etc.etc.etc. is all about.
> 
> Some of us are not surprised.


Swampbuck-I not sure truer words have been spoken. Thank you.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

Yamirider said:


> Swampbuck-I not sure truer words have been spoken. Thank you.


Except they aren’t that true. 71% of Michigan deer hunters strongly support baiting remaining legal, statewide. Only 14% want baiting banned. 

And it’s been my experience that more public land hunters who want baiting banned, because they’re tired of having guys dump bait right on trails and messing up the whole area of public land, as far as daylight sightings go. 

So you have maybe 10% of the hunters supporting a ban. But then even half of those guys think some baiting should remain legal, because we’ll lose too many hunters if we ban it outright, in the era of CWD.


----------



## Justin

Pinefarm2015 said:


> On a past survey, only 13% of Michigan deer hunters exclusively hunt public land. Most deer hunters hunt private land.
> 
> Given public land hunters often don’t want to bait for other hunters when they are absent, my anecdotal evidence from years of owning a sport shop in a county with lots of public land is that a lower percentage of public land hunters bait, compared to private land hunters.
> 
> So, you have a much larger pool of private land hunters and a higher percentage of private land hunters that bait.
> 
> Given the topography and lack of implements, most landowners really don’t have a legitimate option of planting food plots.
> 
> In my area, it’s mostly all woods, other than the long established farmland.
> 
> So even if a landowner timbers his land, he still has 100’s of stumps to contend with. Even with a bulldozer, 100 big oak stumps are a nightmare.
> 
> I was lucky because where I have food plots, it was mature row pines. But even then, I had to wait 5 years to let the stumps soften up so they could pop out with a bulldozer.
> 
> My point is, many landowners aren’t going to timber their land at all, most won’t then hire in a bulldozer to clear the stumps and most won’t buy a tractor or ATV and all the implements to plant food plots. Then he isn’t going to incur the extra costs of lime and fertilizer needed, since most northern hunting land is on poorer soils.
> 
> A few will, but not many. I was in outdoor retail for a long time. Food plot related sales are a blip. Trail cams, on the other hand, are big movers at a place like Cabela’s. Same with treestands and tent blinds.
> 
> I think people have a view of food plots from what they see on TV. But they must keep in mind, most of those shows are from big plantations down south, big private properties in states like Illinois, Kansas and Iowa or big ranches in Texas that make money from deer hunting. Planting food plots are part of the business model and baked into the fees.
> 
> The typical guy that has 10-20 wooded acres and a trailer in Michigan isn’t going to go thru all the steps necessary to do food plots. He also isn’t going to spend all the money on plots, if he drives up from metro Detroit a couple weekends a Fall, to deer hunt. Most guys are golfing or fishing in August, not screwing around with food plots.
> 
> So in the end, the vast majority of private land hunters won’t be hunting over a food plot, even if bait is banned. While they might have the option on paper, less will take that option, in practice.


That all sounds good but the reality is that most of those landowners will continue to bait in one way or another. The public land hunter wont dare.


----------



## mbrewer

Justin said:


> That all sounds good but the reality is that most of those landowners will continue to bait in one way or another. The public land hunter wont dare.


All hunters want the same things. The ONLY thing that separates us is how bad we want them.

True story.


----------



## FREEPOP

mbrewer said:


> All hunters want the same things. The ONLY thing that separates us is how bad we want them.
> 
> True story.



......and what they will sacrifice to get it.


----------



## JDHunts

FullQuiver said:


> BTW if the fences get knocked down I've heard from a "friend" it is a heck of a food plot, maybe better than sugar beets....


Puffer zone plots?


jr28schalm said:


> That needs to have 2 fences around it, and pay Lara a small fee


How much is Lara? and why is she in a fence


motdean said:


> No. I am afraid that some will want to publish pics....and this site is not intended for that.
> 
> Here is my two cents on the overall situation.
> 
> Awareness needs to be made to even the casual hunter.
> We should follow the DNR's recommendations on this, when their feedback is based on sound science. If they say no bait, then we stop baiting. If they say no food plots, till them under.
> If they say shoot early and shoot often....simply keep re-loading.
> 
> 
> Is the sky falling? I don't think so, but let's do our best to keep it propped up.


Nailed it!


----------



## jr28schalm

motdean said:


> No. I am afraid that some will want to publish pics....and this site is not intended for that.
> 
> Here is my two cents on the overall situation.
> 
> Awareness needs to be made to even the casual hunter.
> We should follow the DNR's recommendations on this, when their feedback is based on sound science. If they say no bait, then we stop baiting. If they say no food plots, till them under.
> If they say shoot early and shoot often....simply keep re-loading.
> 
> 
> Is the sky falling? I don't think so, but let's do our best to keep it propped up.


What month would you like me to till them under?


----------



## jr28schalm

mbrewer said:


> All hunters want the same things. The ONLY thing that separates us is how bad we want them.
> 
> True story.


Sounds like your comeing around on the antlers


----------



## feedinggrounds

We


Pinefarm2015 said:


> On a past survey, only 13% of Michigan deer hunters exclusively hunt public land. Most deer hunters hunt private land.
> 
> Given public land hunters often don’t want to bait for other hunters when they are absent, my anecdotal evidence from years of owning a sport shop in a county with lots of public land is that a lower percentage of public land hunters bait, compared to private land hunters.
> 
> So, you have a much larger pool of private land hunters and a higher percentage of private land hunters that bait.
> 
> Given the topography and lack of implements, most landowners really don’t have a legitimate option of planting food plots.
> 
> In my area, it’s mostly all woods, other than the long established farmland.
> 
> So even if a landowner timbers his land, he still has 100’s of stumps to contend with. Even with a bulldozer, 100 big oak stumps are a nightmare.
> 
> I was lucky because where I have food plots, it was mature row pines. But even then, I had to wait 5 years to let the stumps soften up so they could pop out with a bulldozer.
> 
> My point is, many landowners aren’t going to timber their land at all, most won’t then hire in a bulldozer to clear the stumps and most won’t buy a tractor or ATV and all the implements to plant food plots. Then he isn’t going to incur the extra costs of lime and fertilizer needed, since most northern hunting land is on poorer soils.
> 
> A few will, but not many. I was in outdoor retail for a long time. Food plot related sales are a blip. Trail cams, on the other hand, are big movers at a place like Cabela’s. Same with treestands and tent blinds.
> 
> I think people have a view of food plots from what they see on TV. But they must keep in mind, most of those shows are from big plantations down south, big private properties in states like Illinois, Kansas and Iowa or big ranches in Texas that make money from deer hunting. Planting food plots are part of the business model and baked into the fees.
> 
> The typical guy that has 10-20 wooded acres and a trailer in Michigan isn’t going to go thru all the steps necessary to do food plots. He also isn’t going to spend all the money on plots, if he drives up from metro Detroit a couple weekends a Fall, to deer hunt. Most guys are golfing or fishing in August, not screwing around with food plots.
> 
> So in the end, the vast majority of private land hunters won’t be hunting over a food plot, even if bait is banned. While they might have the option on paper, less will take that option, in practice.


I see lots of plotting equipment on trailers on I 75. And every hunting store and farmers coop has whole isles dedicated to food plotting supplies, even Walmart, Tractor supply, Tractor supply even sells equipment along with most tractor dealers. Your Outdoor retail experience line is way outdated and wore out.


----------



## mbrewer

jr28schalm said:


> Sounds like your comeing around on the antlers


----------



## jr28schalm

mbrewer said:


>


Free pop style.... true story


----------



## jr28schalm

You master baiters are to funny, blasting piney and he's trying to buy you baiters more time..


----------



## FREEPOP

jr28schalm said:


> Free pop style.... true story


----------



## Pinefarm2015

jr28schalm said:


> You master baiters are to funny, blasting piney and he's trying to buy you baiters more time..


It’s illustrative, isn’t it? 

I just got off the phone with the Arkansas DNR deer disease specialist, inquiring about the impact of Arkansas still allowing limited baiting in their CWD zones, so I can make a presentation to the NRC in the attempt to have something similar here...and I’m the anti-baiting bad guy?

It’s as if some here think other hunters are behind the calls for a bait ban. Hunters are low in rank. 

I suggest people go to more NRC meetings. When you see a big room full of smart wildlife biologists that almost nobody has ever heard of, making their case, and professional representatives from big money industry like AG interests, you realize this isn’t a chat room anymore. This is serious business with serious people. 

My little suggestion of buying a couple years of limited baiting is just that, a little suggestion. It will likely be crushed by the room full biologists with years of research at their disposal. But at least the NRC will hear my suggestion and perhaps a lightbulb may flicker. 

Luckily, we have the experience of the 2008 to recall upon. Just because the NRC makes a rule doesn’t necessarily make it so in the real world. 

Marijuana had been illegal for a long time, how did that work out? The same will likely hold true with a total bait ban. I just don’t think a cold turkey ban is going to work, as planned. 

My interest is about slowing the spread of CWD. I don’t want it in my area anymore than anyone else wants it in their area. 

So while I’m driving down to advocate for people that can’t stand me, the people that can’t stand me are doing nothing about the practice that they think is so incredibly important. 

It makes one wonder if the internet peanut gallery really isn’t interested in keeping limited baiting alive and is more interested in name calling on an Internet forum. Hmmm.


----------



## motdean

jr28schalm said:


> What month would you like me to till them under?


I thought your plants were basement grown...


----------



## swampbuck

Pinefarm2015 said:


> On a past survey, only 13% of Michigan deer hunters exclusively hunt public land. Most deer hunters hunt private land.


It may have changed, but the last time I looked most of them hunted both.

I don't really have a problem with whith your suggestion. I think it poses less risk than the guys screaming property rights, and not wanting to ruin their hunting with substantial herd reduction.

Unfortunately they fail to realise that the combination of CWD and their actions are what's going to ruin their hunting.

I also wonder about special interest influence, although with the USDA stepping in, in 452. and Bio torching Leg/Leg's influence might have helped. But still something to watch.

Guess we will have to see what they do. I am glad the legislature passed the SFWMA. That may come in handy.

The bottom line is that, If somebody don't knock the hell out of the deer herd in the CWD and buffer zone, we will all be screwed. And that's a sure thing.


----------



## jr28schalm

motdean said:


> I thought your plants were basement grown...


I thought we were talking plots?..a heavy indica does make a great edge and border thou..i would never grow where my kid lives ether..lol. commercial


----------



## jr28schalm

FREEPOP said:


>


Well that one helped me figure out where your handle comes from.. freepopmusic


----------



## 357Maximum

jr28schalm said:


> Well that one helped me figure out where your handle comes from.. freepopmusic


I just always figgered his ol man was in jail and he wanted him out.


----------



## jjlrrw

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Except they aren’t that true. 71% of Michigan deer hunters strongly support baiting remaining legal, statewide. Only 14% want baiting banned.


Those are some sad and embarrassing numbers.


----------



## FREEPOP

Nickname my niece and nephew have for me, about 30 years now.


----------



## 357Maximum

FREEPOP said:


> Nickname my niece and nephew have for me, about 30 years now.


AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW :lol:


----------



## Rasputin

When I started hunting in the '70's, no one thought of bait. One time in the late '70's someone bought a load of carrots and dumped them. They turned to mush, deer had no interest in them. So our camps conclusion was that deer won't eat bait. Fast forward another ten years and we started to use it, to the point that some of the crew feel naked without it. If it gets banned, they will eventually get used to hunting without it.


----------



## the g1

I hope they make there decision soon, so I know if I need to plant more food plots.


----------



## 357Maximum

the g1 said:


> I hope they make there decision soon, so I know if I need to plant more food plots.


Plant away I would say. I would be floored if bait ain't banned at this point. Plus I heard bait plots cure cancer, make your pp bigger, and basically just save the world as a whole.............. how can you lose?


----------



## jr28schalm

I see line sitting and trees producing acorns on state and fed land becoming combat zones.. thinking tippy damn but with guns and bows.


----------



## jr28schalm

357Maximum said:


> Plant away I would say. I would be floored if bait ain't banned at this point. Plus I heard bait plots cure cancer, make your pp bigger, and basically just save the world as a whole.............. how can you lose?


After reading about your great bedding that's what I plan on working on..I want to be like 357 but a stoned version..


----------



## 357Maximum

jr28schalm said:


> I see line sitting and trees producing acorns on state and fed land becoming combat zones.. thinking tippy damn but with guns and bows.



"May you live in interesting times" :lol:

If I ever heard about a gunfight at Tippy I would shrug my shoulders an go "hmm that took longer than I would have guessed" ............that place is a zoo. A gunfight over a boot salmon is almost inevitable at some point.


----------



## 357Maximum

jr28schalm said:


> After reading about your great bedding that's what I plan on working on..I want to be like 357 but a stoned version..



If there is one thing lacking in this area COVER is it, for sure, no doubt. The decision I made was obvious and easy. Bait and plots is a waste here in the Monsanto plains. Not saying all areas are that way but this one is. You can keep your herbs, all it does is make me go to sleep.


----------



## jr28schalm

357Maximum said:


> "May you live in interesting times" :lol:
> 
> If I ever heard about a gunfight at Tippy I would shrug my shoulders an go "hmm that took longer than I would have guessed" ............that place is a zoo. A gunfight over a boot salmon is almost inevitable at some point.


Yup, I don't like Oct down there, but nov on other hand can be a wonderful place


----------



## 357Maximum

jr28schalm said:


> Yup, I don't like Oct down there, but nov on other hand can be a wonderful place



Think it will stay that way in November once all the deer have cooties?


----------



## jr28schalm

357Maximum said:


> Think it will stay that way in November once all the deer have cooties?


Good ?...did any of the other states Realy lose alot of Hunter because of cwd..i think we are a dieing bred ether way


----------



## 357Maximum

jr28schalm said:


> Good ?...did any of the other states Realy lose alot of Hunter because of cwd..i think we are a dieing bred ether way


Michigan is NOT other states. MEAT is meat and a man's gotta eat. :lol:


----------



## mbrewer

357Maximum said:


> If there is one thing lacking in this area COVER is it, for sure, no doubt. The decision I made was obvious and easy. Bait and plots is a waste here in the Monsanto plains. Not saying all areas are that way but this one is. You can keep your herbs, all it does is make me go to sleep.


I know of a similar place. A thicker than snot 20 acre patch in the middle of nothing with a NO TRESPASSING sign every 6 inches on all four sides. If the signs were any lower the deer wouldn't be able to squeeze in or out.


----------



## 357Maximum

mbrewer said:


> I know of a similar place. A thicker than snot 20 acre patch in the middle of nothing with a NO TRESPASSING sign every 6 inches on all four sides. If the signs were any lower the deer wouldn't be able to squeeze in or out.



A lone marker tree in the middle of a field with a little grass growing around it, or an overgrown ditch can be magic here. Before I bought my place my favorite spot in this immediate area was a 3 acre swale.........sadly that swale is now gone just like all the rest. It does not take much cover to be called cover here. I know exactly how long it takes deer to move 3 miles. It took me longer to write this post than that journey takes when they are motivated to move!


----------



## Pinefarm2015

jjlrrw said:


> Those are some sad and embarrassing numbers.


Regardless of what one thinks about the numbers, the numbers shouldn’t be ignored. 

We’re trying to tailor regulations to get the best bang for the buck (pun intended) so we can get the most positive harvest outcomes with the least amount of negative reactions from hunters. 

No regulations are perfect. But maybe, just maybe we can find a good middle ground, where the risk management ratio is acceptable and we increase the positives more than we increase the negatives. 

I think allowing a little bit of corn is better overall than banning bait entirely. I think it keeps hunter numbers and harvest numbers up more than the potential negatives of a couple gallons of corn spread out on the ground. 

I also think shelled corn spread out is better than beets in a pile. And no, I don’t own any corn feeders. Our local bear populations make corn feeder use more of a headache than it’s worth. 

But what about other compromises? What about design modifications? Any WWII buff knows the P51 Mustang was a dud until they tried a different engine in it. Do we give up on less than optimal designs or do we tweak what still has valid strong points? 

Pennsylvania has had harvest success by allowing only one buck with a 3pt APR and high antlerless quotas. They kill more antlerless deer than antlered bucks with that setup. 

So, what would hunters here think about changing the wording on our existing tags, in the LP?

While the current manifestation of the Hunter Choice rule didn’t work in the NELP, does that mean we totally give up on remodeling our current tag structure? I don’t think so. Remember the P51. They didn’t give up on it, even though it performed poorly at first. 

The wording on deer tags can be changed without legislative action. That’s an attractive bonus. So instead of the nightmare of getting the legislature involved, we can hash out small wording changes that will have big impact in the field. 

For example, what if we reversed the the Hunter Choice setup, to essentially get more antlerless tags into the hands of “average joe” hunters? 

In the LP only, the single tag option could be good an either sex deer, in all seasons. But if used on a buck, the buck has to have 3pts on at least one side. Make it good for public and private land. 

Again, in the LP only, the Combo Tag wording can be changed too. The change can be made to make it so even the guys that don’t normally buy an antlerless tag will end up with an antlerless tag in their pocket. 

The regular combo tag could be good for any antlerless deer, Lower Peninsula wide. The restricted combo tag could be an either sex tag, but if used buck, it is good for ANY buck over 3” on at least one side. 

This is mimicking the Pennsylvania set up, in a sense. It retains combo tag sales, but makes the LP a one buck peninsula, while putting antlerless tags in far more pockets. 

But what it does is puts the 3pt APR on the single tag. If a hunter wants to shoot any buck, he/she had to buy the Combo Tag. 

This does two things. It retains Combo Tag revenue AND it puts a pre-paid antlerless tag in the pocket of every hunter who wants to kill any buck. 

This point is important. Having been a license agent for a long time, I contend that hunters are more apt to use an antlerless tag they’ve already paid for, as opposed to a potential future antlerless tag that they may purchase later in the season. A bird in the hand=a tag in the pocket. 

The result is, all the folks that just want to kill any buck also now have an antlerless tag in their pocket. A hunter who has already purchased an antlerless tag in a license package and has it in his pocket while hunting is far more likely to fill that antlerless tag than the guy that has to apply for an antlerless lottery or go out and buy a stand alone antlerless tag. 

These are the kinds of things we need to seriously discuss.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

I have to disperse 130 miles to kill a doe. I was quite effective at it this year.


----------



## Waif

Luv2hunteup said:


> I have to disperse 130 miles to kill a doe. I was quite effective at it this year.


Did you track it that far due to it' s dispersal? ( Kidding).

Deer getting around fine by me so far this winter. Good to see.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

Waif said:


> Did you track it that far due to it' s dispersal? ( Kidding).
> 
> Deer getting around fine by me so far this winter. Good to see.


LP winter has allowed deer to go where ever they pleased. Maybe a few weeks of winter weather.
UP is a different story. The deer left for the yards a little late but in good condition. I’m hoping for an early spring. 8”-12” of more snow is in the forecast for the beginning of the week.


----------



## Waif

Luv2hunteup said:


> LP winter has allowed deer to go where ever they pleased. Maybe a few weeks of winter weather.
> UP is a different story. The deer left for the yards a little late but in good condition. I’m hoping for an early spring. 8”-12” of more snow is in the forecast for the beginning of the week.


A neighbor owns land he hunts on the west end of the U.P.. Friends own near him.
Having not hunted up there in so long ,I rely on their reports.
Winter is always a roll of the dice.

The one a few years ago here where deer dragged in the snow was the worst in quite a while. Usually they have it good. It is not like hunting the U.P. at all though ,even without the effect of winter severity.


----------



## JDHunts

Pinefarm2015 said:


> I can tell you the exact history of baiting in my area.
> 
> When I was a little kid, the canning processors in Grant and Walkerville had no way to dispose of all the cull vegetables, cull carrots and tops of carrots. So they actually paid people to haul them away and dump them, off site.
> 
> So, there were a couple local farmers that allowed the dumping of the cull products, because they were paid for it. It seemed pretty simple. Allow the dumping of carrots on a field in a crop rotation and get paid for it. What could go wrong?
> 
> One farmer named Pete Morgan (RIP) had a big dump truck and he had the contract to be the hauler to these farms. (Pete later became the first and biggest retail seller of carrots in the area, based on his farm. He innovated the way to hook up the onion bags in such a way as one man could easily shovel in the carrots, thus greatly speeding up the process. Pete died of a heart attack, I think in the late 1980’s. Pete was a great guy, but sadly a very heavy smoker. They don’t make them like him anymore.)
> 
> There was only one big problem, with dumping the big loads of carrots in the farmers fields. The dump truck loads of carrots brought in deer by the 100’s and then the increased carrying capacity brought with the carrots caused the deer to descend like locasts on the dairy farmers corn fields. Instead of having maybe 10 deer in the corn fields, there was now 100.
> 
> It didn’t take long for the farmers to completely reverse their decision to allow the carrots to be dumped. There wasn’t enough money to be made, when their crops were destroyed by all the deer the dump truck loads of carrots attracted.
> 
> But hunters sure noticed. Between seeing 100 deer in a field all kicking and fighting over a massive load of carrots, and listening to farmers complaining about all the deer the carrots attracted, hunters were happy to take the place of the farmers.
> 
> Keep in mind, in those days you could bow hunt wherever you wanted. There were hardly any bow hunters to begin with. Farmers thought bow hunters were almost humorous and no threat with their cute weapons. The truth was pretty close, as actually killing a deer with a bow back then was a big accomplishment. We had permission to bow hunt all the surrounding farms and we were the only ones bow hunting them, in those years. That started changing by 1985-86 and by 1990, there were so many bow hunters showing up that the farmers began leasing their hunting rights. I sure don’t blame the farmers, because they were all dirt poor to begin with. I just miss the days when almost nobody bow hunted and you could go wherever you pleased. (Looking back, we made so many hunting mistakes that it’s laughable today. Nobody knew much about bow hunting back then and we learned along the way, by stumbling around and making mistake after mistake. We even used to do big deer drives with bows, during the middle of the day. We saw a ton of deer on those drives, flung a ton of arrows...and never touched a hair! Good times!)
> 
> So, we talked to the farmers all the time. We found out the drawing power of carrots from them. We typically parked by their barns and would thank them on the way out. My dad always brought farmer Pete Balovich sr. (RIP) a bottle of blackberry brandy for letting us hunt, as that was the old mans nip. Old man Balovich HATED baiting after the dumping experience. The only way he would not welcome any guest hunter was if he caught him bringing in bait, because it brought in so many more deer to eat his corn. He was a dairy farmer. There was only one kind of good deer, in his thinking. A dead one.
> 
> So farmer Morgan still needed somewhere to dump his carrots after the other farmers balked at allowing anymore dumping on their farms. My dad said bring them on into the Pinefarm. They were free! They brought in more deer than you could believe!
> 
> The free dump truck loads of carrots only lasted about 2 years. That’s because, to our disbelief, the processor plants were going to start charging $5 for a crate of carrots. We couldn’t believe it. Charging people for what was free by the dump truck load? They started charging people around 1977-78, if my memory serves.
> 
> So baiting didn’t start as baiting. It started as hauling and dumping refuse, that the canning processors didn’t know how to dispose of. But after farmers that allowed the dumping and hunters that watched the incredible deer numbers it brought it understood how much deer went wild over carrots, the carrots became valuable.
> 
> Keep in mind, the mid-1970’s had pretty low deer numbers, statewide. But the Bitely/Paris/Baldwin area retained good numbers of deer back then. By the late 1970’s, deer numbers were very high in our immediate area.
> 
> I believe it was the Spring of 1978 where we found over 50 dead deer on the Pinefarm, and we weren’t even looking hard for them. But back then, we always found large numbers of dead fawns in the Spring. They heavily browsed the pines too. We didn’t understand back then how out of whack the herd was, with them starving and eating pine needles. Unfortunately, the common thinking of hunters back then was to supplemental feed the deer even more. We know better, today.
> 
> Anyhow, that’s how the whole thing started in my area. That was a long time ago, in a deer galaxy far, far away...


Good read PF, but by canning company's, I assume you packing sheds, I don't know about Walkerville, but no canneries in Grant, and carrot tops stay in the field at harvest, rode the harvestor from the old 1 row, to the newer 2 row, they have knives that cut them off. I've never heard of the guy getting paid to haul them away, but we had our sandy field that we dumped them on. We did have farmers stop and get truckloads they would dump in they're pastures, and the fields Bolthouse dumped there's in was along a road, your right, deer would be out there like crazy, many people saw them. So your exactly right, it started out as dumping waste, and people saw and, bingo baiting came about. I hunted the Brohman area in the 70's, again, it was like you said, lotz of deer, and a few, very few, of us guys slinging wooden arrows around, good old days. The winter of 78/79 I snowshoed into the stateland we hunted, found 20-30 deer, either dead or laying looking at you, not able to get up. That was a pretty bad winter though. Good read, brought back alot of memories.


----------



## jjlrrw

feedinggrounds said:


> Letting infected bucks get older, gives them more time to infect other deer and they travel more during rut. The bait does not start out being infected. And corn or bait that is consumed is not to blame, unless some unconsumed bait is left that is now infected by contact. The digested bait coming out the backside may spread it, Not sure. The ideal freezer meat may be the buttons and young does traveling with mom. Downside is quantity, that can be fixed with 2 arrows or 2 bullets and 2 little deer.


Maybe it's just me but since the APR in the NW13 it seems like more and more hunters are returning, meaning more deer being harvested. 

So sounds like the QDM practices "Let them go, let the grow" are aiding in the spread of CWD.

I baited deer a few years in the early 80's, watching deer pick up a carrot chewing on it pieces fall out back on the ground for other deer to clean up and watching them urinate on the feed just seems like no-brainer to eliminate it 100%. I think most after hunting a few years without bait they will understand how unnatural hunting over bait is and it will bring more hunters back to the sport.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

jjlrrw said:


> Maybe it's just me but since the APR in the NW13 it seems like more and more hunters are returning, meaning more deer being harvested.
> 
> So sounds like the QDM practices "Let them go, let the grow" are aiding in the spread of CWD.
> 
> I baited deer a few years in the early 80's, watching deer pick up a carrot chewing on it pieces fall out back on the ground for other deer to clean up and watching them urinate on the feed just seems like no-brainer to eliminate it 100%. I think most after hunting a few years without bait they will understand how unnatural hunting over bait is and it will bring more hunters back to the sport.


You do know that CWD is only found in areas of the state where traditional management philosophy reigns don’t you?


----------



## JDHunts

S


Luv2hunteup said:


> You do know that CWD is only found in areas of the state where traditional management philosophy reigns don’t you?


So any state it hasn't shown up in yet, just go mapr and no worry's!


----------



## swampbuck

Luv2hunteup said:


> You do know that CWD is only found in areas of the state where traditional management philosophy reigns don’t you?


Look how fast it spread in Missouri


----------



## jjlrrw

Luv2hunteup said:


> You do know that CWD is only found in areas of the state where traditional management philosophy reigns don’t you?


What is traditional management? So far 85% of the testing has come from that small area so to say it doesn't exist everywhere is too soon.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

swampbuck said:


> Look how fast it spread in Missouri


Actually, I believe Missouri found only 15 new cases out of 18,400 deer checked this Fall. 

They eliminated baiting and feeding in 41 counties, eliminated the APR’s in those counties and greatly increased the antlerless quotas. 

Sounds familiar.


----------



## jr28schalm

If people would just shoot more does and this shet would work it self out...but let's blame everyone else...aprs drive doe harvest I don't care what dean says..lol....


----------



## swampbuck

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Actually, I believe Missouri found only 15 new cases out of 18,400 deer checked this Fall.
> 
> They eliminated baiting and feeding in 41 counties, eliminated the APR’s in those counties and greatly increased the antlerless quotas.
> 
> Sounds familiar.


Problem is they are eliminating APR's in county's as they become positive. 

Shutting the door after the horse is already out of the barn, doesn't accomplish anything.


----------



## jr28schalm

swampbuck said:


> Problem is they are eliminating APR's in county's as they become positive.
> 
> Shutting the door after the horse is already out of the barn, doesn't accomplish anything.


Kind of like us stopping baiting after..lol


----------



## stickbow shooter

It's going to be a long off season.


----------



## motdean

jr28schalm said:


> If people would just shoot more does and this shet would work it self out...but let's blame everyone else...aprs drive doe harvest I don't care what dean says..lol....


Yes you do.....


----------



## ridgewalker

The best baiting that I have seen was a fellow that got the discarded cabbage leaves from a Kentucky Fried place that made the coleslaw (at least that was his story). That stuff stunk but the deer loved it. Would have to shred the leaves to measure two gallons. I don't think that 2 gallons of bait will ever do anything to promote CWD because there are too many other critters that take advantage of that bait. A pickup load is an entirely different matter.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

swampbuck said:


> Problem is they are eliminating APR's in county's as they become positive.
> 
> Shutting the door after the horse is already out of the barn, doesn't accomplish anything.


Last I checked, none of the Michigan CWD areas have or had APR’s. 

Pennsylvania has kept their APR’s and have done a pretty solid job of keeping antlerless kill higher than buck kill.


----------



## stickbow shooter

What about guy's practicing QDM in those areas ? Habitat improvements, co-ops. Just asking not saying that's the reason. It would be stupid to point fingers right now.


----------



## swampbuck

jr28schalm said:


> Kind of like us stopping baiting after..lol


I agree. Remove all of the man made risks...or none


----------



## stickbow shooter

Dish7 said:


> Looks like you've been outed as a habitat guy Jr. The shame of it all! :lol:


Ah knew Jr was into habitat. And that's all good. We need someone around here to help the deer herd instead of just take.


----------



## swampbuck

Luv2hunteup said:


> The nearly 10,000,000 acres a farmland poses a much greater risk than food plots or the habitat land that has been improved. If you added up every 100 sq ft bait spot in the state it would greatly exceed the square footage of all the food plots combined. No doubt it will continue to be that way after bait is banned in the LP.


I would be more concerned with the attract and hold guys concentrating deer in the CWD zone.

At the recommended DPSM outside of the disease zone being 30dpsm, that a little under 1 deer per 20 acres....how are you guys doing on that risk factor ?


----------



## jr28schalm

mbrewer said:


> How many does did you shoot because of MARPs?


3 two years ago 2 last year..none this year.


----------



## jr28schalm

sniper said:


> Jr I thought you were looking for land down by me, Groundsize, Farmlegend and the boys...We need some more model citizens down here...lol...You have $500 monthly electric bills..I'm thinking money's no object for you and we're germ free for now..


Lol, I'm all over the board..mybe im growing in cwd soil


----------



## Dish7

stickbow shooter said:


> Ah knew Jr was into habitat. And that's all good. We need someone around here to help the deer herd instead of just take.


Yeah I knew that, just goofing around.


----------



## Luv2hunteup

swampbuck said:


> I would be more concerned with the attract and hold guys concentrating deer in the CWD zone.
> 
> At the recommended DPSM outside of the disease zone being 30dpsm, that a little under 1 deer per 20 acres....how are you guys doing on that risk factor ?


I can’t say for the CWD zone but we quit counting at 200 deer in one 40 acre farm field during the Special Hunt. So I would say it’s at least 100 deer over your 1 deer per 20 acre estimate. Not a QDMA sign in sight.


----------



## retired dundo

Luv2hunteup said:


> I can’t say for the CWD zone but we quit counting at 200 deer in one 40 acre farm field during the Special Hunt. So I would say it’s at least 100 deer over your 1 deer per 20 acre estimate. Not a QDMA sign in sight.


Exactly why banning bait and food plots won't do nothing much.Deer are allway going to group up Especialy during the winterI see about 20 every night by my house In one little Rees and it is not a bait or food plot


----------



## mbrewer

jr28schalm said:


> 3 two years ago 2 last year..none this year.


Peaks and valleys and back to normal. And you thought you was special.


----------



## jr28schalm

mbrewer said:


> Peaks and valleys and back to normal. And you thought you was special.


Stoped I refuse to buy any more doe tags, they will only get 5 bucks from me..


----------



## mbrewer

jr28schalm said:


> Stoped I refuse to buy any more doe tags, they will only get 5 bucks from me..


No wonder you like stick, he only wants 2 bucks from you.


----------



## Trophy Specialist

I couldn't help but notice that the areas (MI and elsewhere) where CWD has been found are mostly areas where baiting is either not allowed or not very prevalent yet baiting seems to be the scapegoat for CWD for many people anyway. Just something to think about.


----------



## Pinefarm2015

retired dundo said:


> Exactly why banning bait and food plots won't do nothing much.Deer are allway going to group up Especialy during the winterI see about 20 every night by my house In one little Rees and it is not a bait or food plot


This is why improving natural habitat and spreading deer out is so important. In the research used in compiling the Response Plan, it was specifically pointed out that deer contact was markedly less with native browse and planted foods, than with bait. That held even if bait was used in a field. 

While 200 deer on a 40 acre field is high density, it’s nothing compared to 5-10 deer on 100-200 square feet. Keep in mind that a single acre has over 43,000 sq feet. 40 acres is 1,740,000 sq feet. That’s 8700 sq feet per deer, compared to 1 deer on 100 sq feet, if only one deer showed up on a legal bait site.


----------



## stickbow shooter

But aren't the majority of bait piles only there for a week or so.


----------



## fishinfanatic19

legal bait sites last one night by me


----------



## jr28schalm

fishinfanatic19 said:


> legal bait sites last one night by me


Now that's something ive never seen,, 2 gals


----------



## fishinfanatic19

never walked by my bait sites then


----------



## retired dundo

fishinfanatic19 said:


> never walked by my bait sites then


Nor mine.might have to give him a tour next year if baiting is still allowed


----------



## jr28schalm

fishinfanatic19 said:


> never walked by my bait sites then


With that much disturbing..They must only hit it at night..lol


----------



## jr28schalm

retired dundo said:


> Nor mine.might have to give him a tour next year if baiting is still allowed


Only if I can sit in one of them pop ups on stilts..lol...we neigbors


----------



## retired dundo

jr28schalm said:


> Only if I can sit in one of them pop ups on stilts..lol...we neigbors


Nope Iam in st Clair county casco twp


----------



## jr28schalm

retired dundo said:


> Nope Iam in st Clair county casco twp


Ok, lol


----------



## John Singer

I do suspect that if baiting is banned, a number of deer hunters will violate the ban unless the risk of being caught and the fines/sanctions are greater than the benefits of baiting. 

I also suspect that many potential violators are members of this forum.

I saw the same thing happen several years ago in NE Michigan when baiting was banned to combat Tb. 

A ban makes baiting more effective and attractive to those who choose to violate.


----------



## red wolf

I really wonder what the success rate would be if the state bans baiting. Let's say violaters are minimun. As for my personal experience I know a few places I have hunted and would have never killed deer At without bait. 

Most people don't want to believe and think that is possible or realistic. 

It had zero to do with hunting abilities or hunting knowledge. It had everything to do with access. If bait was banned I would have not hunted the area. if that was the case deer would multiply from no harvest


----------



## sniper

John Singer said:


> I do suspect that if baiting is banned, a number of deer hunters will violate the ban unless the risk of being caught and the fines/sanctions are greater than the benefits of baiting.
> 
> I also suspect that many potential violators are members of this forum.
> 
> I saw the same thing happen several years ago in NE Michigan when baiting was banned to combat Tb.
> 
> A ban makes baiting more effective and attractive to those who choose to violate.


Nice to see you have trust in your fellow sportsman here...I see a lot of characters and personalities within these threads but straight up violators, not so much....I don't figure a lot of those type guys are crunching thoughts on sportsman websites..


----------



## John Singer

sniper said:


> Nice to see you have trust in your fellow sportsman here...I see a lot of characters and personalities within these threads but straight up violators, not so much....I don't figure a lot of those type guys are crunching thoughts on sportsman websites..


You apparently do not fully understand my post.


----------



## skipper34

There has been a ban in place in the NELP for several years and it has not curtailed the blatant baiting violations taking place there.


----------



## sniper

John Singer said:


> I do suspect that if baiting is banned, a number of deer hunters will violate the ban unless the risk of being caught and the fines/sanctions are greater than the benefits of baiting.
> 
> I also suspect that many potential violators are members of this forum.
> 
> I saw the same thing happen several years ago in NE Michigan when baiting was banned to combat Tb.
> 
> A ban makes baiting more effective and attractive to those who choose to violate.





sniper said:


> Nice to see you have trust in your fellow sportsman here...I see a lot of characters and personalities within these threads but straight up violators, not so much....I don't figure a lot of those type guys are crunching thoughts on sportsman websites..





John Singer said:


> You apparently do not fully understand my post.


Yeah you might hafta enlighten me more...

John
"I also suspect that many potential violators are members of this forum"....


----------



## fishinfanatic19

jr28schalm said:


> With that much disturbing..They must only hit it at night..lol


:coco: Not sure what you're referring too? I don't bait until late season. Absolutely deadly when it's snowy and cold. Replenish every day and hunt the evenings and bingo. I contemplate even hunting October and November anymore


----------



## John Singer

skipper34 said:


> There has been a ban in place in the NELP for several years and it has not curtailed the blatant baiting violations taking place there.


I lived in NE Michigan when the baiting ban was first instituted. Many people who would not normally violate game laws started doing so after the ban on deer baiting.

There are several running jokes about the practices of violating the ban.

One is the concept of Pineapples. Apparently many of the pine trees in the region started producing apples after the ban on baiting.

Another is a sign that can be purchased at some sporting goods stores and gas stations that sell deer bait. It is a sign that you can place over your illegal bait pile. The sign says something to this effect: 
_
"This is not a bait pile. It is a turkey feeding station. Any deer observed feeding here will be shot."_


----------



## John Singer

sniper said:


> Yeah you might hafta enlighten me more...
> 
> John
> "I also suspect that many potential violators are members of this forum"....


One of the issues of communicating like this in an online forum is that we cannot see facial expressions and body language. I would rather have this conversation at a pub over a couple of beers. For now, I will just say that you are correct. 

If the risk of getting caught is low and the cost of a violation is less than the perceived benefit of violating, many, including some members of this forum, will be tempted to violate. 

I truly hope that we do not have the opportunity to test that hypothesis.

BTW: A some members of MS have been busted for game law violations in recent years.


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## nothbound

57 pages?! No way I'm reading all that. Is there a 1 paragraph cliff notes to what I missed?


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## red wolf

Some think bait hunters are lazy and not a skilled hunter. 

Some use bait as a tool in addition to skills to maximize attraction. 

Some think plots are the same as bait. 

Some want plots and bait banned 

Others know banning bait will not help or hurt CWD in the long run. 

Even if you ban baiting people will still bait. 

Some like the idea of a slow removal of bait over a few years VS instant shock


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## Wild Thing

nothbound said:


> 57 pages?! No way I'm reading all that. Is there a 1 paragraph cliff notes to what I missed?





red wolf said:


> Some think bait hunters are lazy and not a skilled hunter.
> 
> Some use bait as a tool in addition to skills to maximize attraction.
> 
> Some think plots are the same as bait.
> 
> Some want plots and bait banned
> 
> Others know banning bait will not help or hurt CWD in the long run.
> 
> Even if you ban baiting people will still bait.
> 
> Some like the idea of a slow removal of bait over a few years VS instant shock



Ha Ha! Thank you nothbound and red wolf for the "cliff notes" summary. I couldn't agree more....57 pages? For what?? This thread probably ran its course long ago...


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## R.J.M.

Like the day it was sharted. 


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## the g1

This reminds me of Rancid Crabtree


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## red wolf

I think it showed 1 thing very clear. 
Many hunters look down on each other for how they choose to enjoy the past time of hunting. said how something that can be fun for all can feel like a small war among others


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## the g1

He was a real honest guy if you ask him


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## jr28schalm

the g1 said:


> He was a real honest guy if you ask him


Looks like it


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## Whitetail Freak

the g1 said:


> He was a real honest guy if you ask him


Loser


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## norseman4us

Guess I'm a lazy hunter. Footplots take no work to put in. Just go to the store and buy them like a bag of carrots lol. 
I did shoot my buck in the woods away from the plots tho. To each their own.


























































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