# CRAZY!!! Please HELP!!! TC Encore Question!



## MIBIGHNTR (Aug 27, 2002)

I just purchased a TC Encore HANDGUN frame and attempted to register it with the Kent Co. Sheriffs Dept.

I ran into a HUGE problem when they could not enter an unknown barrel length into their computer system. I explained to them the concept of the Encore system, allowing different barrel lengths, calibers, handgun, and long-gun configurations to be assembled on a common frame.

I also went on to explain to them... that is why I purchased a HANDGUN frame and was attempting to register it as a HANDGUN... so that I would have the option to configure it as a HANDGUN and a LONG-GUN.

Long story even longer, after she contacted the State Police, they told her that the minute I configured it into a LONG-GUN that I could not change it back to a HANDGUN. I know that you used to be able to do this and apparently you are no longer able to do this under Michigan Law?? ?? 

Any ideas?? Please HELP me if you can...

THANK YOU!!!

Mark


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## Rusher (Jan 6, 2006)

Mark,

Confirm the info on the michigan state police website and also the A.T.F. website. Watchout in the future when everyone has to start burning books and praying to the middle east or mexico.


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

There is conflicting opinion to this day between T/C [based on a related US Supreme Court ruling] and BATF regarding Encore rifle to handgun. If you purchased and registered as a handgun you should be OK as far as MI is concerned.

The MI law requires you to present the handgun for inspection within 10 days. You did that - you complied with the MI law. Its not your problem that their computer system can't handle it. 

LEOs often do NOT know the law - they just repeat what has been taught them by instructors, etc. I was told upon moving to MI and registering all my handguns that I had to have the 'Green card' with me at all times for each gun. This is simply not true - there is no statute whatsoever that requires this.

Use common sense - if you have a rifle stock on the frame do NOT have a bbl less than 16" - that is a short bbl rifle and a Federal felony with mandatory prison time.


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## Sparks (Jun 27, 2006)

At the kalamazoo county sheriffs office last week, I asked same QQ, They didnt have a problum. In and out in ten minutes


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

MIBIGHNTR said:


> I ran into a HUGE problem when they could not enter an unknown barrel length into their computer system.


One of my co-workers ran into this. He seperately bought a bare Encore frame as a handgun and a blackpowder muzzeloading barrel. The intent was to build a muzzeloading rifle that he could later change to a handgun.

He ran into the same problem as you, couldn't register it as a hangun without a barrel, which he had yet to buy. Turns out there is no maximum length they can enter into the system as a handgun barrel. So he just slapped the 50 cal muzzleloader barrel on it and they registered it for him that way (handgun with a 28" barrel).

-na


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## Rico (Mar 15, 2001)

Sounds about right; You need a barrel on it for them to register............ sounds crazy but it happens................
See if you can barrow someones pistol barrel to register the gun; serial# is on the frame.

I just ran into another one in regards to a Ruger six shooter; it has a 38-40 & 10mm cylinder: the 10mm happened to be on the frame so that was how it is registered.


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## jmoser (Sep 11, 2002)

Lets be clear here:

You do NOT need to have a barrel on it in order to satisfy Michigan's 'Safety Inspection' law. The statute requires you to PRESENT FOR INSPECTION WITHIN 10 DAYS. As soon as you put it on the table in front of the LEO *you have complied with all requirements of the law.* If they refuse and/or are unable to process it then *politely* insist on a response IN WRITING and then document it yourself with a follow up letter confirming date, place, LEO personnel, etc.

A nice way to address this is to *politely* ask them to CITE THE STATUTE that requires you to have a barrel on the frame. THERE IS NONE!

It is absolutely 100% legal to purchase, posess, store, and transport a handgun receiver with no bbl on it as long as you comply with all other relevant laws regarding storage, transport, etc. etc.


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## MIBIGHNTR (Aug 27, 2002)

Well, I just got off the phone with the Michigan State Police and was told the skinny.

You can purchase a FRAME only and register it. You can then use the frame to swap back and forth various HANDGUN barrels. You can also use the frame and configure it as a LONG GUN to swap back and forth various LONG GUN barrels.

Heres where it gets interesting.....

Once you configure your HANDGUN frame as a LONG GUN, it has to remain a LONG GUN from that point on. You can NEVER configure it as a HANDGUN again.

I explained to the woman at the State Police (Lansing) that there are probably thousands of people in Michigan who swap back and forth from a LONG GUN to a HANDGUN on Encore and Contender frames. She said that they realize that and she simply wanted to communicate to me that that practice was ILLEGAL and if caught it would be up to the LEO as to what actions to take. She also went on to state that their job is to communicate the law and it is up to the individual to comply or not.

It would be nice if all of the gun shops knew this information so they could at least inform their customers and leave up to them to comply, or not. Shame on me for not being better educated.

Looks like what you have to do to remain legal is have one HANDGUN frame and one LONG GUN frame...

FYI to all....

Mark


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

That's almost an uninforceable law. The only way a LEO would know, is if he ran the frame numbers and had witnessed you changing it from a long gun back into a handgun. If he checks it while your hunting,(assuming your not carrying an extra pistol grip and pistol barrel with you in the field) it would be completely legal...how are they to know "how many" times it's been changed etc since a pistol frame can have a long gun barrel on it. The chances are so slim as not to even worry about it imo. I don't have any handgun barrels so it is not an issue with me...at least yet as I had wanted to do that. I certainly wouldn't run around with Encore frame in pistol configuration without the frame being properly registered though!


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## MIBIGHNTR (Aug 27, 2002)

Swamp,

You are correct.

Or, the LEO would have to check you once with the LONG GUN configuration and then check you again with the HANDGUN configuration.

The law is the law and I am just trying to communicate what I have learned the hardway.

It is a very frustrating process as I just got back to work after driving to the Sheriff's department yet again and having to leave with no frame and no registration. 

In talking with the representative on the phone form the State Police, they have to supply a "secret code" to enable the subordinate departments to issue an registration with NO caliber and NO barrel length. Well guess what happened when I got to the Sheriff's Department before 12:00pm so I could catch everyone before they went to lunch, the individual at the Sheriff's Department called the number and asked for the person I spoke with earlier in the day and that person was in a meeting. No one was able to give the "secret code" and I was sent away again!

So, I will now have to make a third trip to the Sheriff's Department and HOPEFULLY, I will emerge victorious form the wonderful system they have in place!

I would like to have everyone's e-mails so I could schedule a meeting to take of me in the future on one visit... If this kind of situation would have ocurred in the automotive world I live in day to day, someone would have likely been looking for new employment.

Shame on me for not nailing the MSP individual on a time that she would be available to accept a phone call from the Sheriff's representative, or asked them to contact each other. I guess they have to be better managed in order to avoid this mess in the future.

Another case of the honest people, who always try to do things the correct way, are the ones that get screwed the most!

OK, I'm done! Have a nice day!!!

Mark


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I can understand your frustration!!! I've had mostly good luck, but a few times I've been in and the system is "down" so no luck or I've called to find out the times the person is available to do the paperwork only to arrive and they are not there etc. 

And the Encore issue seems to always be confusing. Looks like I'll just have to buy a second frame someday when I'm ready to go the pistol route.


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## Sparks (Jun 27, 2006)

http://www.bellmtcs.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=3029&


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## SA ULTRA MAG (Nov 7, 2001)

MIBIGHNTR said:


> Once you configure your HANDGUN frame as a LONG GUN, it has to remain a LONG GUN from that point on. You can NEVER configure it as a HANDGUN again.


MIBIGHNTR,
Sooooo.....if I sell a used Encore pistol frame that has had a long gun barrel mounted on it the buyer doesn't need a purchase permit. Hey, it's no longer a pistol.....right ?
What if I buy a used pistol frame, I never know what the previous owner had mounted on it ?
Once again....punishing the law abidding citizen for the loosers out there. The gangbangers are not going to use a single shot pistol for their crimes.


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## Briar Field (Dec 12, 2005)

So once you make it into a long gun, what do you do to the Green registration card. If you can no longer convert it back to a pistol, it should no longer be registered as pistol. Would you have to take it back to the sheriffs office and have then destroy the card and take it out of there system? Do they enter it as converted, cann't say destroyed or stolen.

I have wanted to buy one but this uncertainty had keep me from pursueing it.


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## Yarcher (Oct 17, 2006)

I ran into a similar problem when I installed a pistol grip on my Remington 870, and installed a shorter barrel. I don't remember all the specifics, but the barrel length was long enough that it wasn't a short barrel shotgun, but the overall length made it short enough to classify as a pistol. Needless to say, the chief of police in the one horse town where I lived was rather confused. Luckily, I had printed all the applicable laws from the internet, and dropped them on the counter. I now have a 12 gauge 870 registered as a pistol, which comes in handy on those dark and lonely nights...


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## MIBIGHNTR (Aug 27, 2002)

Sorry guys.... I finally got mine away from being held hostage at the Sheriff's department yesterday.

I am done talking to the Sheriff or the MSP on the issue as my head is bruised and bloody after banging it on the brick wall while trying to understand the logic behind any of the laws related to the Contenders and Encores...:banghead3 :banghead3 :banghead3 

If you're a up for a good exercise in futility, feel free to call though. You can ask for Deb or Sissy at the MSP (517) 332-2521.

Although, I would certainly LOVE to be there when you present your previously classified, and registered, Encore HANDGUN as a LONG GUN and make the request to reclassify it! I cant imagine a person at ANY agency that wouldn't go into a tailspin with that request...:lol: 

Mark


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## kaler9969 (Feb 25, 2005)

If you want a definite answer, contact the state attorney generals office and ask for a determination in writing. It would not hurt to have one also from the ATF. Local and state police departments do not make any legal determinations. Neither do the desk clerks at the AG office or atf. Get a written determination and I think you will be more the satisfied with the response. Everything else is meaningless.


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