# Chartering Question



## LabsRock (Apr 25, 2006)

OK here is the hypothetical. You own a boat and you fish an inland body of water. You take a friend or friends fishing with you who end up paying you some amount of money for gas/expenses. Is this a charter and must you now be licensed in some way by the state to technically take this money.

Ok now what if this is now on a larger boat that fishes the Great LAkes on a regular basis. If you have lets say a friend and he brings his brother and brother-in-law along to fish and they end up up each paying you like 40 dollars that does more than cover the cost of the gas for the trip. Is this a charter and must you now be licensed to accept this money? I guess the question is really one of when does it stop being friends going fishiong and now it is something that I have to worry about being fined for since Ia m not a licensed charter captain?

I know that a charter is basically defined as the receiving of money for services rendered. Is tha fact that I receive some money violate the law? Even if I receive extra money, but as we all know the price of gas through the boat is only the beginning of the costs of owning and operating a boat, especially if it is a larger Great Lakes boat.

To me there would seem to be a difference between having friends/other people you know come and fish with you for the day and advertising yourself as a boat for hire. I am sure there are plenty of thoughts and opinions on this matter especially since MS people are more than willing to invite others along to catch fish and often it is offered to share expenses. I know I have friends that come and fish with me and want to know how badly I am breaking the law.

Andrew


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## LabsRock (Apr 25, 2006)

I see that there is another thread started on this, but my question still exists as to whether taking more money than what is necessarily spent on that trip is considered a profit. Lord knows that what I do get extra does not begin to cover the cost of maintaining the boat. 

My best guess is that it depends on the officer in question at that moment. I am sure it could be fought and won in the courts, but that could be expensive.

Would the Coast Guard be more apt to cite you for this thena say a state natural resources person??


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

To start with, unless you are really promoting it, I doubt you will be caught or even asked if you are doing it for money. Nobody is just gonna stop you and ask.

I'm sure this is being done (spliting expenses) all the time.

Just go fishing and enjoy yourself.


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

LabsRock said:


> I see that there is another thread started on this, but my question still exists as to whether taking more money than what is necessarily spent on that trip is considered a profit. Lord knows that what I do get extra does not begin to cover the cost of maintaining the boat.
> 
> My best guess is that it depends on the officer in question at that moment. I am sure it could be fought and won in the courts, but that could be expensive.
> 
> Would the Coast Guard be more apt to cite you for this thena say a state natural resources person??


You'll hit the Lotto 10 times before this scenario happens to you.


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## Jason Adam (Jun 27, 2001)

You cannot accept monies for anything other than actual expenses incured. 

As quoted from the 2005 NINTH DISTRICT SPECIAL NOTICE TO MARINERS page 60 

The law makes a clear distinction between the operation of a private vessel for pleasure purposes, and the operation of a vessel engaged in carrying passengers. A "passenger" means any individual carried on board the vessel except the owner, operator, a crewman, or a guest on board a vessel that is being operated only for pleasure who has not contributed consideration for carriage on board. The number of passengers carried and the size of the vessel determines which inspection, manning and licensing regulations apply. 
end quote - 

Here is the definition of "consideration" from United States Code TITLE 46 - SHIPPING 

United States Code 
TITLE 46 - SHIPPING 
Subtitle II - Vessels and Seamen 
Part A - General Provisions 
CHAPTER 21 - GENERAL 

U.S. Code as of: 01/26/1998
Sec. 2101. General definitions 
(5a) ''consideration'' means an economic benefit, inducement,right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140303&highlight=expenses


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## Gone Fishing (Jul 31, 2001)

Lets see, expenses incurred. Buying a boat, filling a 240 gallon gas tank, buying dedicated rods for all species fished, downriggers, outriggers, planer boards, mast, rod holders, live well, bait well, coolers, sonar, radar, gps, 3 of every lure color known to man in multiple style baits. Well, you get the picture. Ill take every dime my buddies will give me!


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Lets see, hypothetical, I'd arrest you, seize your boat and let you fight it out in court. If you win, fine, if you loose, you lost a bunch.


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## Beave (Aug 26, 2002)

All seized boats are sold to help fund the CO pension fund right Boehr?


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## LabsRock (Apr 25, 2006)

Boehr

Would that come under the duty of a state wildlife officer or Coast Guard? I know licensing procedures are handled through the Coast Guard.

Luckily I would not have to pay an attorney to fight the court battle, but I am glad to know that there is at least a sense of humor about it.


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## FishTales (Feb 13, 2002)

Gone Fishing said:


> Lets see, expenses incurred. Buying a boat, filling a 240 gallon gas tank, buying dedicated rods for all species fished, downriggers, outriggers, planer boards, mast, rod holders, live well, bait well, coolers, sonar, radar, gps, 3 of every lure color known to man in multiple style baits. Well, you get the picture. Ill take every dime my buddies will give me!



And you can add annual maintenance, slip fees for the season, survey's , insurance, misc things too numerous to mention.
Rich


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## Salami (Dec 23, 2004)

I guess your friends just turned into crewmen!


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

i would think that anytime you accept money for a service it make you liable if anything happens


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## MSUICEMAN (Jan 9, 2002)

lets see if this passes the common sense test. i doubt anyone would knock ya for taking a little money to pay for gas or if they paid for gas at the gasdock/gas station. maybe a couple bucks towards bait/lures/gear. but if you are talking about a situation where you are actually even contemplating that you are going to turn a profit on the trip.... then maybe at that point i would call it a charter and then you would be liable.


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

And I guess that anybody that accepts any kind of money whatsoever for gas while carpooling is operating an illegal and unlicensed taxi service right?

There's gotta be some common sense used. Unfortunately that's not usually the case.

John


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

In all seriousness, the violation is both a federal and state violation so one could be duel charged although most of the time (99%) you would be charged by the state. Lets look at the situation though. The charter boat business rarely turns a profit for many. The biggest advantage is the boat and costs being tax write offs. Is it really fair for a person to take people out and charge them, say 40 bucks and say that is towards the costs of the trip when a legal charterboat has to pay a lot money to even become licensed to try to get business? Last I heard the USCG pilot license alone was something like $400 and if you didn't pass it, which many don't the first time, then you pay more to take it again.

Anyway, here are the laws you are dealing with;

I will point out this part of the law with the complete law in the link below.

324.44501 Definitions.
(b) "Carrying passengers for hire" or "carry passengers for hire" means the transporting of any person on a vessel for consideration regardless of whether the consideration is directly or indirectly paid to the owner of the vessel, the owner's agent, the operator of the vessel, or any other person who holds any interest in the vessel.
(c) "Charter boat" means a vessel that is rented or leased or offered for rent or lease to carry passengers for hire if the owner or the owner's agent retains possession, command, and control of the vessel.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(ds4i...451-1994-III-2-3-CHARTER-AND-LIVERY-BOATS-445

and

http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admincode.asp?AdminCode=Single&Admin_Num=28103101&Dpt=NR&RngHigh=

When illegal charterboats are caught it normally comes from a complaint. Either a dissatisfied customer or another charterboat captain who as I stated above, believes it isn't fair (and its not) to take possible business away from him when one isn't even licensed. Even when the USCG gets a complaint it is normally turn over to COs. There are illegal charterboats caught ever year and although there might be some that get found not guilty, to be perfectly honest, I don't ever recall a not guilty verdict for an illegal charterboat. Of course when we go to court we normally have pretty much an air tight case but I'm not going to tell you all how we do it and gather the evidence.

Let you conscience be your first guide and then let the law be your second guide.


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## double trouble (Nov 20, 2003)

do the old ticket scalper trick. when someone comes on board they have to agree to buy some rediculously high price for their share of lunch,a pencil, or notebook of paper. the boat ride and all that comes with it is free. this absolves you of any responsibility toward being a charter. they cannot successfully take you to court either.they agreed to pay it. stupidity is not a chargable offence.


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

Let me say that I have absolutely no problem with licensing and regulating CHARTER BOATS. But when two or three guys say "hey, lets go fishing" and one says "we'll use my boat" another says "I'll bring some snacks and refreshments" and they all agree to share the fuel expense that is NOT a charter.


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## FishTales (Feb 13, 2002)

Using a little common sense, I think there is a fine line between whether your asking for money to take these friends fishing or it is mutual agreement that your only sharing expenses for the trip. A friend of mine went fishing with me one time and asked how much for his share, I said nothing, I'm going fishing and I invited you to go along with me. When it was all said and done and he left to go home, I found a $ 20 bill in my ashtray.
Rich


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## Jason Adam (Jun 27, 2001)

This comes up on every great lakes fishing site every year, and as gas prices go up, the question comes up more often, as there is always some charter captain saying.."bla bla bla.. you cant accept gas money.. blablabla..". The question has been answered 10 times on this site alone. You CAN accept gas money for actual expeneses incurred on that trip. No, you're boat payment, insurance, etc... doesnt count towards expenses incured.

Everyone here knows the real answer to this question, its common sense. If you have the time and energy to violate and get caught, and then go fight it with some cheezy logic, or the $300 envelope "trick", good luck... I'm gonna take my friends fishing. If they drop $20 on the dash or buy me lunch... Theyre getting the best deal going, and I'm still out $100K, but we're having fun..


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Excellent post Jason. That is the correct answer!


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