# Insulating Pipes



## BumpRacerX (Dec 31, 2009)

Hey gang...

Trying to save some cash this winter. Already turned the thermostat down. Heat system is an older boiler hot water system. My basement is uninsulated/unfinished and the pipes are easy to access. Would I gain anything by using http://pipewrapinsulation.com/?page_id=14 something like this on my pipes, or is this kind of stuff basically snake oil?
http://pipewrapinsulation.com/?page_id=14


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Pipe wrap insulation does work. Please make sure you use the right stuff for your boiler. From what the picture looked like that was regular hot water pipe wrap. The old boiler pipe runs a lot hotter and requires a special fiberglas pipe wrap. I know a company called Knauf had a boiler pipe wrap. 
You generally cant find it at every Lowes or Home Depot since not much of that is sold anymore. I think the Home Depot in Detroit at 7 mile and Meyers carried it last I knew. Or a local boiler/furnace company. Many of the newer hot water systems run not so hot and you can use the regular stuff on that pipe. 

Do you have the "proper" amount of attic insulation? Most old homes never had any. Or very little. Lots of people add 4" or 6" of fiberglass in the attic and think they are good to go. Not so, in Michigan the more the better. The current code in Michigan is R-49 in the attic thats like 16-17
Inches. I blew in mine 2 years ago. Had 10" or r-30 so I doubled it to 20" or R-60. Much better now. In most homes money can always be saved buy adding the correct amount or more of insulation. Make sure you have proper venting as well.
Insulating walls will help to but is generally much more involved to it and energy savng will be far less then doing the attic.

Did you do your band/rim joists in your basement? This is an area of cold air infiltration in homes. "Proper" sealing and insulation will cost very little and save you money. To do a band joist properly you will need to seal it and insulate it. The 2" blue or pink rigid foam board cut to fit tight into the pockets then sealed with a foam sealer like great stuff around the pirimeter works well. Spraying with a spray foam is best but requires a company or special spray machine/canister. Some guys will just put fiberglass insulation up there. Dont bother, your wasting your time, the key is stopping air flow. Fiberglass dont do that.

Any holes on the outside of your home? No? Are you sure? Look where your wires come in the home. Can you shoot some calk into that hole to stop airflow? Same with cable and phone wires. Got a outside faucet chaulk that hole to its normally larger then the pipe so air gets in there to. doors and windows all sealed and chalked well? Any air flow at your door sweep? 
Pipe wrap your hot water tank pipes. do all of the hot if you want but the first 3 ft off the tank is most important. Believe it or not but the first foot or two on the cold side should be wrapped as well. You could put a hot water tank insulation blanket around it. and turn the dial down to a middle range.
If your doors dont seal well, you may be able to reseal it depending on what type doors you have. 
Keep you thermostat down when your not there. Also turn it down an hour or so before bed time. Has your boiler been cleaned and checked to make sure its burning efficiently?

Sorry for rambling on, just had a few ideas.


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## BumpRacerX (Dec 31, 2009)

I appreciate the feedback. I'm going to go nuts with a can of spray foam insulation sealing some cracks that have developed in a few spots. Roof insulation is going to be done next spring, I have to put a roof on also cause this one has a crap ton layer of shingles and leaks. I don't want to do the insulation until after I fix the roof.


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## PLUMMER47 (Dec 9, 2006)

Foil bubble wrap would be considered "snake oil for anything radiant". John Segenthaler has many articles on the foil blunders and claims. Any plumbing or heating supply house will have the proper glass insul. I get mine from H.L. Claeys or Ferguson Supply. And they usually get it from 8 mile & southfield, I believe its Balfrey & Johnston. The closed cell black foam wrap will work as well, both are pricey. Do some research on your boiler setup and near boiler piping, controls, outdoor reset, these things will make larger savings than pipe wrap.

Lots of info here, http://comfortcalc.11.forumer.com/index.php

There are links in 1 of the threads with lots of pics and explanation for the laymen. This guy has alot of great info.


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## BumpRacerX (Dec 31, 2009)

Plummer, thanks for the great info. I ended up determining the circulator pump was junk, now the house is much warmer. I still think I'm going to go through and insulate all the pipes though.

The system was setup with two zones, but no diverter valves, etc. Just a T in the lines coming out of the boiler with two seperate runs that come back together shortly before the fluid re-enters the boiler. It just seems terribly inaccurate for lack of a better way to put it.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

BumpRacerX said:


> Plummer, thanks for the great info. I ended up determining the* circulator pump was junk*, now the house is much warmer. I still think I'm going to go through and insulate all the pipes though.
> 
> The system was setup with two zones, but no diverter valves, etc. Just a T in the lines coming out of the boiler with two seperate runs that come back together shortly before the fluid re-enters the boiler. It just seems terribly inaccurate for lack of a better way to put it.



Funny you should mention that. When I first saw your thread It didnt say anthing about having a issue. It asked if you would save money by insulating your pipes. I remember thinking to have you check your circulator pump, but its wasnt in issue


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

MEL said:


> Did you do your band/rim joists in your basement? This is an area of cold air infiltration in homes. "Proper" sealing and insulation will cost very little and save you money. To do a band joist properly you will need to seal it and insulate it. The 2" blue or pink rigid foam board cut to fit tight into the pockets then sealed with a foam sealer like great stuff around the pirimeter works well. Spraying with a spray foam is best but requires a company or special spray machine/canister. Some guys will just put fiberglass insulation up there. *Dont bother, your wasting your time,* the key is stopping air flow. Fiberglass dont do that.


I disagree.

Dimensional lumber only has an R value of less than 2 so, there is a greater amount of conductive heat loss at an uninsulated band joist.
Placing fiberglass in the floor joist pockets on the outside wall won't eliminate air penetration like foam will but, it certainly isn't a waste of time, for either living in the home or in preparation to sell it.


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## PLUMMER47 (Dec 9, 2006)

Band joist is the #2 heat loss spot. 

Unfortunately for your zones, if they have no flow control valves , the system has no way of controlling flow between the 2 zones. Usually there is a small brass fitting without a handle, but there will be a stem that is adjustable. If you don't have these, then the water will take the path of least resistance, which will be the shorter run in TDL'. I would highly recommend the Taco VDT pump, variable delta T. By maintaining a constant 20 degree DT it will make the home much more efficient and comfortable, also extending the life of the boiler. Look into installing balancing valves as well, even if its just a regular valve partially closed to balance. With temp readings on the return side of the zones you can balance them properly.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

WoW. said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Dimensional lumber only has an R value of less than 2 so, there is a greater amount of conductive heat loss at an uninsulated band joist.
> Placing fiberglass in the floor joist pockets on the outside wall won't eliminate air penetration like foam will but, it certainly isn't a waste of time, for either living in the home or in preparation to sell it.


I disagree.
Air infiltration is the issue with band joists. Fiberglass insulation just filters the air, It does nothing to stop it. 
Fiberglass is a good filter, like in old furnaces, cause it ALLOWS air to pass thru it.
What needs to be done is to stop air infiltration. foam the whole pocket or foam the perimeter and add a closed cell foam board to stop air.

If it makes people feel good to throw some pink insulation by itself in a band joist then by all means do it. At least it "looks" better then a bare pocket.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

MEL said:


> I disagree.
> Air infiltration is the issue with band joists. Fiberglass insulation just filters the air, It does nothing to stop it.
> Fiberglass is a good filter, like in old furnaces, cause it ALLOWS air to pass thru it.
> What needs to be done is to stop air infiltration. foam the whole pocket or foam the perimeter and add a closed cell foam board to stop air.
> ...


You can disagree until you are blue in the face but the fact remains, homes are insulated to minimize conductive heat loss.

Air infiltration can cause temperature decreases but, it is not the same as conductive heat loss which rigid foam, rolls or batts, blown or whatever is used to minimize. 

Two different critters sir, whether you agree or not.


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## jerrob (Aug 6, 2011)

Im a union insulator in indianapolis local with 22 years in the trade. Fiberglass insulation at least 2 in thick on the tank with a vapor barrier and 1 in thick on the pipes. Dont forget to insulate the condensate return as it can freeze on the coldest of days. If you have any questions or need advise, pm me, might be able to locate some material. Good luck.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

WoW. said:


> You can disagree until you are blue in the face but the fact remains, homes are insulated to minimize conductive heat loss
> 
> Two different critters sir, whether you agree or not.



Look back to my reply on 12/10 and I specified sealing against air infiltration at the band joists. That was what I was suggesting. 
Band Joists can be a big area of energy costs due to cold air comming in.
Put a batt of fiberglas up there and it may help with conductivity but will not stop infiltration. We have done FLIR Thermography on plenty of bare and fiberglas filled bands and they will all leak until SEALED. 
Once sealed properly then insulated (both correctly) the imaging will show a marked improvement when scanned again. 
In many older home the band joists in just sitting on a bare cement poured wall or block wall. I dosent even take one of our $10,000 FLIR to 
see thats gonna leak air in. Newer homes may have a plate and or sill sealers that will be better but not "tight". 
When we canvassed the Energy Auditors in Michigan we found they also 
suggest sealing with insulation. Or sealing alone with the foam being the insulation and sealer. No one suggests insulation alone!!!


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## BumpRacerX (Dec 31, 2009)

MEL said:


> Funny you should mention that. When I first saw your thread It didnt say anthing about having a issue. It asked if you would save money by insulating your pipes. I remember thinking to have you check your circulator pump, but its wasnt in issue


You hit it. If you completely shut down the system and let the pump cool down, it would work for a short period, and then over heat. It's nice actually having a heating system that will maintain a reasonable temp in the house.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

MEL said:


> No one suggests insulation alone!!!


Nobody did.

But, not too many people I know say that fiberglass alone is a waste of time either.

Insulation methods have improved considerably since the days of news papers in the wall cavities but along with other things, some is often better than none at all.


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