# When is a fox a 'nuissance'?



## motoscoota (Mar 9, 2021)

Just going thru some thoughts here, as I know a permit is required to hunt fox before Oct. 1...

I lost three chickens over the last week; daylight and under my nose - no fear of my dog, lawn tractor, and weed whacker all running at once.

The red fox was seen once chasing a chicken. The lost chickens all went silently and without a trace.

This morning this scat was in my yard near the coop:









As I consider addressing this problem:
- The DNR, says a permit exists to control "nuissance" furbearers on a farm.

Am I a farm? I only have a small flock, over a few acres. I don't sell produce - just give some away. My fencing is not intact.

Would I need my property inspected by the DNR to get the permit? Not that big a deal, but inconvenient and I predict I'll be told my chickens aren't valuable enough to justify a permit, or they might laugh at my hundred y/o fencing and make recommendations instead of permitting, etc.

Please share your experiences.

Worst case: I wait until October but I'd rather get it done now while "it's on."

Now I consider technique:

Range will be 75 yards at most.
Looking at my Mossberg 870 as a suitible gun. I don't see a scope doing much good - will slow acquisition. The gun has a fiber optic sight built-in. Here is where I sort of hate that - probably useless at night - wish I could use a regular open sight somehow.

What would you aim with?
(I'm not buying infra red at this time)

The gun also only shoots up to 2-3/4" shells. I'm looking at my stash, and I have some #4 shot, and some 00.

I'm leaning toward the #4 shot, thinking it would do less damage to the pelt. I also want a humane kill, so maybe 00 would be better.

Opinions?

Then I consider drawing the animal in:
I see these decoys that spin an animal tail/fur-ball thingy around. Should I be keeping a squirrel or racoon tail to rig something?

Are foxes attracted to chicken eggs? Should e yes! Right?

Looking at a distress call, squeeling cotton tail. Something I can keep in my pocket, no batteries required - like this one.









I would post up at sun up and sun down, down wind from decoy/bait and make quiet calls.

Please share your thoughts, and thank you for doing so!


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## propbuster (Mar 4, 2004)

S. S. S.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

I would rather have a cool fox around than a bunch of chickens but that's me.


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## Dirty Sanchez (10 mo ago)

Foxes make fantastic jerky. Though not as good as bobcat. Not kidding.


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## pgpn123 (May 9, 2016)

Call the DNR and see what they say. Don't even have to give your name right away.



Sasquatch Lives said:


> I would rather have a cool fox around than a bunch of chickens but that's me.


When the chickens are gone, the fox will be too.


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## Spade (Feb 20, 2007)

? Why would you want to keep the pelt this time of year.


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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)

Pics remind me of a cool name for a salmon spoon color: greasy fox shat.


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## textox (Jan 30, 2020)

Unless you want to tack it on your barn,pelt is worthless at this time of year.A head shot from a pellet rifle will end the Chicken killers raids.Zip tie a small high lumen flashlite to the scope,works well for night time sorties....


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

I've stressed the importance of building a fortress before obtaining chickens many times.
Dead chickens result regardless. Folks just play by luck instead.
Complacency leads to birds free ranging (read not defended by a fortress) , more so with breeds that don't tolerate confinement with a smile ; and there goes another one.

Now you want to know how to legally have permission to kill a fox that has found a consistent easy food source due to conditions you created. Followed by how to kill it.

Pups should be weaned and learning to hunt. IF both parents are still alive add the pups to the belly count.

What firearm do you shoot most accurately and do you have a safe line of fire within it's range?
If not safe you back up to the shotgun. And shoot close. 75 yards is not close. And don't hit the coop. Or a chicken. Or something valuable.

Shoot one predator and expect the rest to get craftier about it. (How many fox do you have in range of your fowl?)
Bringing us back to what? 

I understand your position.
And have always defended my stock to the best of my ability.
You don't get to start over yesterday.
But start over. Treat it like everything wants to eat part or all of a chicken and or egg.
Meanwhile , depredation is a crime in my book. Unless I'm doing it.


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## eucman (Jan 24, 2009)

Dirty Sanchez said:


> Foxes make fantastic jerky. Though not as good as bobcat. Not kidding.


Really?
Saw a Meateater episode where they ate a coyote. They ate it but didn't expound on its palatability.


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## Dirty Sanchez (10 mo ago)

Yep. Bobcat has the awesome-est orangish translucent meat ever. Best Jerky I've ever made.

Fox is good. It has meat like a ****. Maybe a little lighter. You must get rid of all glands and all fat but it also makes a tasty jerky.


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

I believe you need to have a certain percentage of income to qualify as a farm.


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## Dreamchaser (Jun 20, 2016)

My understanding is that you are able to defend yourself or you properties from any threat. Chickens are property and fox is threat! 
Shot the sh** out of that thing dig a hole and worry no more. But also make sure you have a good chicken coop and a good roster will also help.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

I think you just need a better dog.


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

My German Shepard happened to be walking at the back of my chicken coop when a fox walked out .He made short work of the fox as I was looking out the window it flew 6 feet into the air as he shook it to death .


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Thirty pointer said:


> My German Shepard happened to be walking at the back of my chicken coop when a fox walked out .He made short work of the fox as I was looking out the window it flew 6 feet into the air as he shook it to death .


They probably did the same thing in the old country.


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## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

I'LL REPEAT----SSS


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## Mike da Carpenter (Nov 26, 2017)

Bucman said:


> I'LL REPEAT----SSS


And most importantly…Don’t get online and talk about it…#3 (Prior & Post)


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

pgpn123 said:


> Call the DNR and see what they say. Don't even have to give your name right away.
> 
> 
> 
> When the chickens are gone, the fox will be too.


Heck yeah. If you don't give them your name, they'll never know who you are.


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## Dirty Sanchez (10 mo ago)

I know a guy that was going to help a guy. His goats were being slaughtered. The guy sitting there...full black ops, ginger mall ninja regalia. Thermal on, scanning the perimeter. 

Homeowner whispers..I sure appreciate your help. The game wardens refused to do anything about it last week. The guy said.....WHAT.... YOU IDIOT. Packed up his stuff and left.


No good deed goes unpunished, I guess. I don't even put an opinion out there anymore ..except when I posted a bat cure on here out of ignorance.

This stuff is to remain between homeowner and Jesus. Don't even let your kids know ...cause it's being repeated in the school....first period.


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## motoscoota (Mar 9, 2021)

I'm listening here guys. Thank you all for the inputs!

I absolutely respect the fox. I do think about it's kits. I'm not into being destructive. Chickens are cheap, and foxes are pretty cool.

It turns out my surrounding property is owned by a fox hunting club - the kind with the red coats & other English style traditions going on. I certainly hope they can keep up their thing, but also observe them to be more of a horse club than serious hunters, TBD on a full opinion there.

My actual coop & run is a fortress, but I keep my property open to invite some meat bags in. I have a deer honey pot going. I free range my birds for the work they do - clearing slugs & snails, scratching dirt, pooping fertilizer, etc.

I feel invested when I raise chicks, but maybe should look toward adopting older birds to keep my flock count.

As I said at the beginning, I'm simply thinking it thru and very much appreciate hearing some stories to expand on.

I'm going to be asking the group here about Guinea hens too, but that's another topic


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## pgpn123 (May 9, 2016)

Fishndude said:


> Heck yeah. If you don't give them your name, they'll never know who you are.


I still talk less than 45 seconds, harder to trace...

Wasn't sure why he just didn't call instead of asking here.


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

If I have a fox, coyote, bobcat or the neighbors dog killing my chickens, ducks ON MY PROPERTY,,, I’m killin quickly and the DNR can suck rocks about it!


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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

Dreamchaser said:


> My understanding is that you are able to defend yourself or you properties from any threat. Chickens are property and fox is threat!
> Shot the sh** out of that thing dig a hole and worry no more. But also make sure you have a good chicken coop and a good roster will also help.


Castle doctrine is for human intruders, not foxes. Lmao. You cannot shoot a fox, bobcat, etc without proper permitting. You also cannot ever shoot raptors. Like some of the others have said, his best recourse is prevention. 

Sent from my SM-S908U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## RHRoss (Dec 5, 2020)

Macs13 said:


> Castle doctrine is for human intruders, not foxes. Lmao. You cannot shoot a fox, bobcat, etc without proper permitting. You also cannot ever shoot raptors. Like some of the others have said, his best recourse is prevention.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
> [/QUOTE


. “Raptors”, Why would anyone want to shoot a Raptor lol. I guess I would just lock them up every night, get a furbearers license and come October use them as bait and kill every Fox that comes in!


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## Dreamchaser (Jun 20, 2016)

Macs13 said:


> Castle doctrine is for human intruders, not foxes. Lmao. Your cannot shoot a fox, bobcat, etc without proper permitting. You also cannot ever shoot raptors. Like some of the others have said, his best recourse is prevention.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


If I may ask where did you knowledge about this topic come from…. Can you back your statement up?


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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

Dreamchaser said:


> If I may ask where did you knowledge about this topic come from…. Can you back your statement up?


I had thought this was common knowledge but since you'd like a source, just go to the DNR website. Fox are a protected game species just like deer, bear, geese, etc. As I am wont to do, let's go for an analogy; this is the same as folks that live in wolf country - you can be out walking your dog unleashed in the woods - if by some terrible chance your dog gets attacked by a wolf and you're carrying a gun, you can't shoot the wolf unless it's in personal self-defense. Because the dog (or the chicken to complete the analogy) is property and not a person, it's not something you can use lethal force to protect (although pepper spray, for instance, would be legal if you were ballsy enough to enter the scrap). Now, I'm not saying that I would stand by and just let my dog get eaten if I had the option to shoot in this hypothetical scenario (that does happen occasionally and I recall an M-S member having this happen last year while training his bear dogs) but I would do so with the knowledge that it's going to cost me a fine. At that point, you have a personal decision to make. In the chicken issue, the OP has an attachment to his chickens and if he deems it worthwhile to eat a fine and possible loss of hunting license for a short time, he may choose to go outside of the bounds of law. As they say, punishable by fine means legal for a fee. 

Below, the first is a screenshot from the DNR. Your options in this scenario are to call in a professional trapper, wait for legal hunting season and take it with a furbearing license if you are allowed to hunt your area, or trap it but again, this must be during hunting season with selfsame license. The 2nd and 3rd pics go together. One is the headings for the chart and the second pic with the fancy blue arrow that I conjured up is the penalty for a fox specifically. So, one must determine if this fine/possible-but-very-unlikely jail time is worth the risk (with the knowledge that any responding officer may decline to pursue charges at his discretion) vs the monetary and subjective emotional value of the flock.























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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

RHRoss said:


> . “Raptors”, Why would anyone want to shoot a Raptor lol. I guess I would just lock them up every night, get a furbearers license and come October use them as bait and kill every Fox that comes in!


I included that because it definitely used to be (and I would assume still is) common practice for chicken keepers to shoot hawks that may (and occasionally do) kill their flock. That's why Red-tailed, Cooper's, and sharp-shinned hawks used to be commonly referred to as chicken hawks. 

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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

You forgot Owls also Mac, but this were done by a Leg Trap on a high post.


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## Dreamchaser (Jun 20, 2016)

Macs13 said:


> I had thought this was common knowledge but since you'd like a source, just go to the DNR website. Fox are a protected game species just like deer, bear, geese, etc. As I am wont to do, let's go for an analogy; this is the same as folks that live in wolf country - you can be out walking your dog unleashed in the woods - if by some terrible chance your dog gets attacked by a wolf and you're carrying a gun, you can't shoot the wolf unless it's in personal self-defense. Because the dog (or the chicken to complete the analogy) is property and not a person, it's not something you can use lethal force to protect (although pepper spray, for instance, would be legal if you were ballsy enough to enter the scrap). Now, I'm not saying that I would stand by and just let my dog get eaten if I had the option to shoot in this hypothetical scenario (that does happen occasionally and I recall an M-S member having this happen last year while training his bear dogs) but I would do so with the knowledge that it's going to cost me a fine. At that point, you have a personal decision to make. In the chicken issue, the OP has an attachment to his chickens and if he deems it worthwhile to eat a fine and possible loss of hunting license for a short time, he may choose to go outside of the bounds of law. As they say, punishable by fine means legal for a fee.
> 
> Below, the first is a screenshot from the DNR. Your options in this scenario are to call in a professional trapper, wait for legal hunting season and take it with a furbearing license if you are allowed to hunt your area, or trap it but again, this must be during hunting season with selfsame license. The 2nd and 3rd pics go together. One is the headings for the chart and the second pic with the fancy blue arrow that I conjured up is the penalty for a fox specifically. So, one must determine if this fine/possible-but-very-unlikely jail time is worth the risk (with the knowledge that any responding officer may decline to pursue charges at his discretion) vs the monetary and subjective emotional value of the flock.
> View attachment 848356
> ...


Ok well I spoke with a CO and his response when I asked if I had a fox that was killing my chickens could I shot said fox?…. His response was absolutely….. I didn’t ask about the others you mentioned.😏


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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

Chessieman said:


> You forgot Owls also Mac, but this were done by a Leg Trap on a high post.


Owls are raptors

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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

Dreamchaser said:


> Ok well I spoke with a CO and his response when I asked if I had a fox that was killing my chickens could I shot said fox?…. His response was absolutely….. I didn’t ask about the others you mentioned.


Just like cops are not an authority on what is legal, a CO is not either. Only attorneys, judges, and the politicians that write the laws are. That's why we go to court. 

If it were me, I would have that CO's name and the date that he told you this to protect yourself, but as they say, strictly speaking, ignorance of the law is no excuse. 

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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

Or you Mac!


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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

Chessieman said:


> Or you Mac!


Meaning that I am not an authority? I'm reading (and posting) the exact legal description. I'm not offering my opinion on it. In this instance wherein I'm simply parroting the objective laws and regs, I am an expert, of a fashion, because I'm just reading to you. 

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## pgpn123 (May 9, 2016)

As far as certain wildlife being protected, if/when they attack my pets or animals, all bets are off.


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## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

It’s a gamble letting chickens free range I did for 20 years or so and would occasionally lose one but one time 3 big raccoons got in the coop I left open one night and killed about 20 chickens and all my sons pigeons …that was the end of the raccoons and my chicken hobby .


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## 22 Chuck (Feb 2, 2006)

For sure about the kids. Back long time ago I hit a NICE buck about Dec 7th-. MSon went to school and said "Dad finally got a deer".


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## FishManDan (Mar 24, 2013)

Hmm I have lived in rural Merica for years and most farmers I know live by the SSS rule.

Shoot Shovel Shut up.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Man alive... for being so strict on game laws ya'll sure do condone breaking them when it suits!


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## pgpn123 (May 9, 2016)

sureshot006 said:


> Man alive... for being so strict on game laws ya'll sure do condone breaking them when it suits!


When it suits is no trivial matter _in this case_. As Mike Tyson says, everyone has a plan until they get hit. SSS. Worst scenario you face a jury, and abide by the results.


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