# Asian Carp - we knew this was coming...



## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

I've wondered how long this was going to take....


http://news.yahoo.com/asian-carp-reproduce-great-lakes-watershed-160601193.html


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## JDSwan87 (Aug 15, 2010)

Makes me sick that our government just him-hawed around about this and really did nothing... 

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## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

JDSwan87 said:


> Makes me sick that our government just him-hawed around about this and really did nothing...
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Ohub Campfire mobile app


They CLAIM:

"The Obama administration has spent nearly $200 million to shield the lakes, focusing primarily on an electrified barrier and other measures in Chicago-area waterways that offer a pathway from the carp-infested Mississippi River watershed to Lake Michigan. Critics say more is needed and are pressing to physically separate the two systems."

Was that it? $200 million dollars of *OUR* money and it was still a futile project? Too late now I guess...


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

The article states the carp found in the Sandusky were grass carp, not the feared bighead/silver carp. They were likely eminated from other sources as grass carp had been used widely for weed control in ponds, etc. and had been around for a while.
Besides, bighead carp had originally been found in Lake Erie since 1996, which is pretty well before their mass invasion up far into the Illinois River.

What catches my eye is 200 million spent by the Obama administration. That electric barrier on the Chicago Ship and San canal, which was originally conceived to keep gobies from migrating down the canal into the Illinois River during the Clinton administration, was there before Obama got into office. Improvements had been made to it over the recent years, but besides the fence put up in the Wabash marsh (which is in IN btw), what did the 200M buy?????


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## Kisutch (May 26, 2011)

Dams have worked pretty well out on the west coast in destroying anadromous fish stocks. Two hundred million would put quite a bit of dirt and concrete in places to save our lakes. Better yet just drain all these possible avenues then we can all sleep better.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

These carp were brought here by the USFWS and USDA and at the time they were a good thing. The same people brought us wolves that have all but killed off Why not use low level prison or jail inmates to net the carp and control them. They must have some commercial use and the money could be used to support Obama care. It makes sense to me.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

Robert Holmes said:


> These carp were brought here by the USFWS and USDA and at the time they were a good thing. The same people brought us wolves that have all but killed off Why not use low level prison or jail inmates to net the carp and control them. They must have some commercial use and the money could be used to support Obama care. It makes sense to me.


Since asian carp are plankton eaters, and not bottom feeders like common carp, they're supposed to taste pretty good except for being bony. However, the commercial market for them doesn't pay very well and they are said to be difficult to net as they're pretty wary. In the states, the carp carry tremendous stigma and are reviled by most consumers, as opposed to Europe and Asia where they are a delicacy. As has been used with other fish, a name means everything. Thus, there have been efforts to rename silver carp as silverfin.

There have been efforts by Sea Grant and various agencies to bring in top-shelf chefs and offer tastings.

Has anyone ever attended these tastings and tried it? How was it?


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## wartfroggy (Jan 25, 2007)

REG said:


> The article states the carp found in the Sandusky were grass carp, not the feared bighead/silver carp. They were likely eminated from other sources as grass carp had been used widely for weed control in ponds, etc. and had been around for a while.
> Besides, bighead carp had originally been found in Lake Erie since 1996, which is pretty well before their mass invasion up far into the Illinois River.


Yup. No big surprise to find them in Erie after having found bigheads in there almost 20 yrs ago.


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## Minner_Chaser (Jul 9, 2013)

REG said:


> Since asian carp are plankton eaters, and not bottom feeders like common carp, they're supposed to taste pretty good except for being bony. However, the commercial market for them doesn't pay very well and they are said to be difficult to net as they're pretty wary. In the states, the carp carry tremendous stigma and are reviled by most consumers, as opposed to Europe and Asia where they are a delicacy. As has been used with other fish, a name means everything. Thus, there have been efforts to rename silver carp as silverfin.
> 
> There have been efforts by Sea Grant and various agencies to bring in top-shelf chefs and offer tastings.
> 
> Has anyone ever attended these tastings and tried it? How was it?


Incorrect. Fresh Asian carp from the U.S. is a higher,commodity than the native Asian carp in their native land. They are deemed a delicacy because they are fresh from a "clear" river source, versus the mud ponds they come from over there. I've done extensive work with them, and,there are already multi-million dollar contracts for their exportation.


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## Minner_Chaser (Jul 9, 2013)

And just like sea lampreys, until recently Asian carp have not been able to spawn outside of a river system. It is believed they may evolve and spawn in the big lake, but here's to hoping that's not the case. Putting a weir in place would inhibit them from spawning; that is the general consensus.


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## o_mykiss (May 21, 2013)

I had bighead and silver carp, and it was fantastic. 

As for the 200 million spent, you can find out a lot of the stuff it was spent on using google. 

Research, testing water samples, surveys to find out where they are, hiring commercial fishing, barrier upkeep/maintenance, looking at other methods of prevention besides separation

Separating the shipping canal from teh great lakes is the only long-term solution. However, short term profits from from industry always wins out over long-term sustainability. It's why we have 200+ invasives in the Great Lakes. It was too much money to sterilize bilge water. Would impact shipping too much to separate the Chicago shipping and sanitary canal. 


I find it ironic and sad that the people so quick to blame the government for inaction on invasive species are often the same ones that complain about the government for placing onerous environmental standards upon businesses.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

Minner_Chaser said:


> Incorrect. Fresh Asian carp from the U.S. is a higher,commodity than the native Asian carp in their native land. They are deemed a delicacy because they are fresh from a "clear" river source, versus the mud ponds they come from over there. I've done extensive work with them, and,there are already multi-million dollar contracts for their exportation.


Incorrect? This information states a contrary picture.

I remember hearing commecial fishing guys were only getting 0.12/pound vs 0.38/pound they were getting for buffalo, the one of the primary commercial species that supported them previous to the silver/bighead carp invasion.

The Obama adminstration has allocated 51.5 million dollars in subsidies to develop commercial operations for these fish, on top of an annual budget of 47 million to control carp.

Also, here are some comments as made here:
http://www.iisgcp.org/catalog/downlds_09/asian_carp_mktg_summit_proceedings.pdf

Fisherman will take 15 cents per pound, but they would prefer 25 cents per
pound. Big River is paying 7 cents per pound to export fish.

Big River averaged 14 cents per pound. Competition will increase and the price of fish will increase as more facilities open up.

Also:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/29/business/la-fi-china-carp-20110829

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/some-see-dollar-signs-invasive-fish

_Speaking through an interpreter Lu thanked the community for the investment opportunity. The fish caught here will be marketed as upper Mississippi wild-caught carp, with so much energy they can jump. So far however, Chinese demand hasnt necessarily meant profits for U.S. producers.

"You just absolutely cant make any money. The margins are too close," said Steve McNitt, sales manager for Schafer Fish in Northwest Illinois. Schafer has experimented with selling carp to China, but at 45 cents per pound, the price is too low to cover costs and turn a profit.
_

The question is whether current development of this commercial fishery is bouyed by actual market demand or by availability of government subsidy?


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

irishmanusa said:


> OUR[/B] money and it was still a futile project? Too late now I guess...


Did the Bush adm. do anything for all of those years ?

L & O


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

o_mykiss said:


> I had bighead and silver carp, and it was fantastic.
> 
> As for the 200 million spent, you can find out a lot of the stuff it was spent on using google.
> 
> ...


Going to have to try it if they have another tasting in the area. Since they are plankton feeders, they are supposed to be high in Omega 3's and low in contaminants. 

Also, when considering separating the Chicago canal, that would only be removal of one vector. Moreover, if they put in a physical barrier where the electric barrier currently is, asian carp could still conceivably get into Lake Michigan via the Calumet/Little Calumet river linkage. This also wouldn't preclude them from getting into other rivers, such as the DesPlaines via a flood scenario. A fence was supposed to have been built, but much like the fence built in the Wabash marsh to separate the Wabash from the Maumee river drainage, how is a fence going to keep fry and/or fingerlings from slipping through. Certainly, the Chicago ship and sanitary canal is only one hole is what can conceivably looks like a collander for ways carp can get in.

Lastly, and I have said this for years, if we're going to disconnect the Chicago ship/san canal for what could happen, what about the Welland Canal or whatever they are using now, where lamprey, alewifes, zebra/quagga mussels, gobies, spiny water fleas, etc. DID "happen"?

What needs to be considered is- What's Next.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

Liver and Onions said:


> Did the Bush adm. do anything for all of those years ?
> 
> L & O


Funny thing is the original electric barrier project was conceived during the Clinton adminstration, as I said to keep gobies from heading into the IL river. Took until the Bush administration (about 10 years) to become operational as it morphed into a carp barrier.

From what I remember, the barrier did experience a temporary shutdown during Bush's term due to defunding, but that was due to Congress shifting budgets around, not Bush.


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## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Here's a link to the US Control Strategy:
http://asiancarp.us/documents/2012Framework.pdf

165 pages of who, what, when, where, how. I'm not saying this is the Government or current Administrations fault, but $200 million dollars... why not offer a bounty on the carp paid by the Gov.? How many invasive carp would $200 million eradicate? Just saying.......


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## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> These carp were brought here by the USFWS and USDA and at the time they were a good thing. The same people brought us wolves that have all but killed off Why not use low level prison or jail inmates to net the carp and control them. They must have some commercial use and the money could be used to support Obama care. It makes sense to me.


Couldn't do that Robert...makes too much sense.:lol:


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## Minner_Chaser (Jul 9, 2013)

REG said:


> Incorrect? This information states a contrary picture.
> 
> I remember hearing commecial fishing guys were only getting 0.12/pound vs 0.38/pound they were getting for buffalo, the one of the primary commercial species that supported them previous to the silver/bighead carp invasion.
> 
> ...


Not in regards to the fishery in the U.S., but in regards to the fishery comparative to that of native Asian carp. I should have specified; my bad. Of course it is poor to the fisheries which exist in the U.S. However, there are alternatives. I caught a 40# Bighead in Missouri, and the Chinese restaurant actually paid me for it by giving me a free meal. Prisoners could eat it, the homeless could eat it, and even poorer nations could be supported by our problem.


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

First off this is all a bunch of B.S. and media trying to sell a story. They found count it FOUR grass carp. The specimens in the photos looked to all be large adults that I can only assume have been in the river for 15+ years. To say they are thriving is completely laughable.


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## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Multispeciestamer said:


> First off this is all a bunch of B.S. and media trying to sell a story. They found count it FOUR grass carp. The specimens in the photos looked to all be large adults that I can only assume have been in the river for 15+ years. To say they are thriving is completely laughable.


I don't put much credibility in Yahoo reporting, but the Government is serious about it to the tune of $200 million dollars.

This was taken from the US Strategy (link in previous thread):

The Great Lakes food web has been significantly degraded in recent decades by aquatic invasivespecies (AIS). The most acute AIS threat facing the Great Lakes today is movement of carp not native to the United Sates (bighead and silver)collectively known as Asian carpthrough the Chicago Area Waterway System (CAWS), Wabash River, Grand Calumet River, and possibly other pathways that can connect the Great Lakes to the Mississippi River Basin. For purposes of this report, *Asian carp is limited to bighead and silver carp. However, efforts to contain black and grass carp, species of increasing concern, would benefit from some actions specified in the Framework.*

No mention of the "counted 4 grass carp".


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## Brown duck (Dec 16, 2005)

Fishndude said:


> Asian Grass Carp have been in the great lakes for decades. They aren't terribly prolific, or they would have overrun lake Erie by now. They are _*not*_ the same as Asian Silver, or Bighead Carp. But various news agencies like to put out articles/stories about them from time to time, always presenting them as "breaking news" stories. They are old news.


That's true, to an extent, but the devil is in the details. Those that have been around for decades were thought to be the triploid haplotype, that is, unable to reproduce. The news is that through the lab analysis, researchers decided that these fish were spawned and lived their entire lives in the river. While the grass carp is ecologically different in some senses from the more 'popular' bighead and silver carp, they require similar habitats for breeding. Evidence that these fish have spawned in Great Lakes tribs suggests that all the others could potentially do so, too. Researchers are dismayed to find that these carp are able to successfully reproduce in rivers shorter than once thought.


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## Minner_Chaser (Jul 9, 2013)

troutguy26 said:


> If you look at it from a nonprofit aspect, it makes sense until you think about all the work involved to catch, clean, package, etc, etc and who's going to do all that work.
> 
> There is no good that can come from these fish.... no matter how you spin it.



I agree, but aren't billions already spent in feeding the poor and prisoners? Yes it would take money to accomplish such a thing, but this is money that is already being spent on other methods.


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## Minner_Chaser (Jul 9, 2013)

Brown duck said:


> That's true, to an extent, but the devil is in the details. Those that have been around for decades were thought to be the triploid haplotype, that is, unable to reproduce. The news is that through the lab analysis, researchers decided that these fish were spawned and lived their entire lives in the river. While the grass carp is ecologically different in some senses from the more 'popular' bighead and silver carp, they require similar habitats for breeding. Evidence that these fish have spawned in Great Lakes tribs suggests that all the others could potentially do so, too. Researchers are dismayed to find that these carp are able to successfully reproduce in rivers shorter than once thought.


THANK YOU!! This was the whole point of this article. No, maybe those grass carp weren't harmful, but this is just a kaleidoscope of bad things to come. Everybody is looking at this as one color, but the do not realize what this IMPLIES


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## o_mykiss (May 21, 2013)

Minner_Chaser said:


> THANK YOU!! This was the whole point of this article. No, maybe those grass carp weren't harmful, but this is just a kaleidoscope of bad things to come. Everybody is looking at this as one color, but the do not realize what this IMPLIES


https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4890464256/h92161863/


The real question is how much suitable habitat is there, and will there be enough for them to take over. Right now there's not enough mature individuals to reproduce in large numbers (called an allee effect if i remember right), but as more and more individuals get introduced, if there is enough spawning habitat we could be in trouble.



as far as the folks that want to use the free market approach to fish down asian carp - 1) it hasn't been done elsewhere, so doubt there is a big enough market for it. and 2) if there was an industry built around it, and it was profitable on a large scale, the next thing you'd see is the industry lobbying to conserve asian carp to avoid killing jobs.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

troutguy26 said:


> Yep, if there's money to be made it would have already happened.
> 
> I've heard this same talk before when they first started invading down south and it was geared towards selling them overseas. I'm sure the logistics numbers were insane for what you'd make from it.
> 
> ...


You're dead on. Some of the distributors have already looked into those alternatives and more, pretty creative. However, sounds like the jury is still out as to whether they can make a go of it. Here are a few pretty interesting reads. The only thing the one article talks about black carp. Makes me wonder if the author was mixing up black vs bighead carp.
http://www.prairiestateoutdoors.com/index.php?/pso/article/asian_carp/

http://www.myjournalcourier.com/new...cle_7ebe5470-7ca7-11e2-bbf2-001a4bcf6878.html

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/asian_...tanding_but_how_much_science_is_enough_part_1

http://www.asiancarp.org/Documents/Bighead.pdf


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## troutguy26 (Apr 28, 2011)

Minner_Chaser said:


> I agree, but aren't billions already spent in feeding the poor and prisoners? Yes it would take money to accomplish such a thing, but this is money that is already being spent on other methods.


Well, we can exclude the nonprofit in my eyes since its not feasible. 

Prisoners? There is some big contracts (and I'm sure a little who ya know, who ya .... going on) that will be very hard pressed to put an end too. I mean after all its Tom's cousin's brother who runs that and Tom is the senator. If you catch my drift...

I fully understand what you say and where your coming from, but I feel shedding a positive light on this situation only makes it worse by taming the fears of people who might not be as well informed as others.


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## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

troutguy26 said:


> *but I feel shedding a positive light on this situation only makes it worse by taming the fears of people who might not be as well informed as others*.


 
EXACTELY. As seen in previous posts, there is much denial by those less informed. It would be great to use these invasive fish as a means of feeding our hungry or putting unemployed to work (instead of sitting on your ***** drawing unemployment - States have you harvesting Silver & Bigheads for the money) but we all know that is not going to happen. Perhaps we send in the *"Tippy Snagging Crew"* to clean it out.


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## DoubleJay (Aug 9, 2009)

REG said:


> Incorrect? This information states a contrary picture.
> 
> I remember hearing commecial fishing guys were only getting 0.12/pound vs 0.38/pound they were getting for buffalo, the one of the primary commercial species that supported them previous to the silver/bighead carp invasion.
> 
> ...


If these entreprenuers want to get their costs in line, they need to find a way around the established middle man when it comes to shipping these fish to China....seems to be a lot of nearly empty ships returning to China after dumping off their Walmart stuff on the west coast.....

Jay


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## Minner_Chaser (Jul 9, 2013)

o_mykiss said:


> https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4890464256/h92161863/
> 
> 
> The real question is how much suitable habitat is there, and will there be enough for them to take over. Right now there's not enough mature individuals to reproduce in large numbers (called an allee effect if i remember right), but as more and more individuals get introduced, if there is enough spawning habitat we could be in trouble.
> ...


 Sadly, I agree


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## Minner_Chaser (Jul 9, 2013)

troutguy26 said:


> Well, we can exclude the nonprofit in my eyes since its not feasible.
> 
> 
> I fully understand what you say and where your coming from, but I feel shedding a positive light on this situation only makes it worse by taming the fears of people who might not be as well informed as others.


Yeah, you're right. I wonder what the future will hold :/


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## frenchriver1 (Jul 5, 2005)

DoubleJay said:


> If these entreprenuers want to get their costs in line, they need to find a way around the established middle man when it comes to shipping these fish to China....seems to be a lot of nearly empty ships returning to China after dumping off their Walmart stuff on the west coast.....
> 
> Jay


Individuals dealing in trade with the Chinese find that the rules are markedly different than dealing with other trading partners, so just snapping your fingers does not get it done. It takes years to set up lines of trade and communication within an essentially closed society...

But, the basic question is how we get rid of or at least control this threat to our sport fishing industry.


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## frenchriver1 (Jul 5, 2005)

irishmanusa said:


> EXACTELY. As seen in previous posts, there is much denial by those less informed. It would be great to use these invasive fish as a means of feeding our hungry or putting unemployed to work (instead of sitting on your ***** drawing unemployment - States have you harvesting Silver & Bigheads for the money) but we all know that is not going to happen. Perhaps we send in the *"Tippy Snagging Crew"* to clean it out.


Obviously you have never collected UC, or you would not have insulted those who have for whatever reason had to do so. Learn more about the benefit("earned" through previous employment contributions) and process before you make a totally uniformed statement.


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## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

frenchriver1 said:


> Obviously you have never collected UC, or you would not have insulted those who have for whatever reason had to do so. Learn more about the benefit("earned" through previous employment contributions) and process before you make a totally uniformed statement.


I did not mean to put EVERYONE who has or is collecting UC into the same category - my apologies. I think it is a known fact that MANY (not all frenchriver) people that are physically & mentally capable choose to abuse the system and prefer to collect UC rather than find work, while those who legitimately can't work suffer.

And you too have made a wrong assumption: I HAVE collected un-employment. 2 of the worst weeks of my life...never again.

How about those carp anyways?


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## pimp'n hens (Dec 14, 2009)

Maybe we can pay off our debt to china with carp! Lol 


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## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

pimp'n hens said:


> Maybe we can pay off our debt to china with carp!


:lol: Yep!

But they would try to sell it back to us as "canned salmon"...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

Biologically speaking the population on the Mississippi is/was on a boom, it will at some point reach its peak. Its basic biology. The same thing would occur once the species got into the great lakes, eventually coming as wide spread and similar to the common carp from Europe. When an invasive organism enters into a suitable vast ecosystem it exhibits this population boom, its a process that has been repeated time and time again with many species in the great lakes; gobies, zebra mussels, quagga mussels, alewife, common carp.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

Yeah, but in the meantime their impact has been very negative on several levels.........


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Tempotech harvested all of the salmon in L Huron and turned them into cat food. Are cats too good to eat bighead carp? Hell call them Mississippi salmon put them in little cans with shrimp cats will eat them


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Mabey we can elect a president that will send American products to foreign countries (bighead carp) instead of cash.


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## irishmanusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> Tempotech harvested all of the salmon in L Huron and turned them into cat food. Are cats too good to eat bighead carp? Hell call them Mississippi salmon put them in little cans with shrimp cats will eat them


Now I'm getting hungry....:lol:


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