# Thankyou michigan bowhunters



## wildcoy73

Your facts are off. Crossbows where allowed in the start of the archery season. But with vertical bows being lighter, and having longer ranges the crossbow was drop. I am not trying to take away our archery season. 
I am out to expand all of our choice and have a choice of what I use during any given season.
From what I can find out the MBH is so afraid of the crossbow that they limited to only 15 days a year.
vertical bows and guns get 365 days a year.
So that is 360 more days a field for a vertical bow and gun hunter.


----------



## Arwin

srconnell22 said:


> Unfortunately, just like the MBH, you fail to see that it is not YOUR bowseason...it is all of the sportsman in MI's bowseason.


 I think your misread what I typed. I was comparing your stubborness to how I would be if that were to happen. I realize it is not only MY season.


----------



## Arwin

wildcoy73 said:


> Your facts are off. Crossbows where allowed in the start of the archery season. But with vertical bows being lighter, and having longer ranges the crossbow was drop. I am not trying to take away our archery season.
> I am out to expand all of our choice and have a choice of what I use during any given season.
> From what I can find out the MBH is so afraid of the crossbow that they limited to only 15 days a year.
> vertical bows and guns get 365 days a year.
> So that is 360 more days a field for a vertical bow and gun hunter.


 Squirrels with a crossbow would be a sight to see.:lol: MBH makes it's position known and fights for what we beleive in but the actual rules are made up by an entirely different group. Maybe they know something that we don't fully see. I do know Michigan would be a fat cash cow for the crossbow companies if they got full inclusion.


----------



## wildcoy73

Arwin said:


> To reply, I would have to see the numbers of probability that a shot taken from a crossbow is more likely to result in a kill vs a bow. If it is more likely to kill a deer with a crossbow than a regular bow, then that weapon is no longer low impact. I would say a scoped crossbow is as accurate as a scope shotgun in a 50yd scenario.


Arwin,
With that post I see you have not been around the crossbow.
The crossbow I have set up has the same red dot scope as my compound, uses the same broadhead, uses the same fletching, uses a carbon shaft just like my compound, The strings are made the same.
The big diffrent is my compound will have plenty of energy at 50 yard to make a quik kill. will the crossbow you are getting to its outerlimt in range.
After 40yard a crossbow loses alot of energy and falls off quickly.

I would like those that are against the crossbow to get around them and see they are not a magical weapon. You must still hunt with them.

yes but I have done it with my bow plenty of time so the next step wood be a crossbow. I have done it with a pistol, rifle, shotgun, compound, and recurve. so now I should give it a try with a crossbow.


----------



## Arwin

Would it be easier for you to group with a crossbow, if you had it on a gun rest like some tree stands have ,vs holding a compound and trying to shoot at the same distance?


----------



## wildcoy73

For myself no. I am more accurate with a compound. 
But than again they make rest for vertical bow hunters to use while in the field. 
So to me the resting part is a mute reason.
I know of no gun that at a fair range that can stack over 60 shots one on top of another.
Even in testing they say the best you should count on in a five group shot with a gun in 1 1/2 inches.
And to think with a bow I am after a half dollar area.


----------



## sbooy42

Arwin give it up..it use-less
Even though we don't have the choice to use rifles during Dec..they'll play the CHOICE card until you give up...Besides the choice for able hunters is already there, they just choose not to take advantage of it...
I mean come on, they actually think an x-bow is archery:lol:.....oops I forgot to add the IMO in there some where


----------



## Munsterlndr

Arwin said:


> To reply, I would have to see the numbers of probability that a shot taken from a crossbow is more likely to result in a kill vs a bow. If it is more likely to kill a deer with a crossbow than a regular bow, then that weapon is no longer low impact. I would say a scoped crossbow is as accurate as a scope shotgun in a 50yd scenario.


Arwin -

The numbers _are _in and they are consistent across all of the states that allow full inclusion. The harvest succes rate between crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters is identical. The myth that is propigated that crossbows are uber-powerful weapons deadly out to 70+ yards is simply that, a myth. Compound bows are more accurate and more deadly than crossbows are, yet they are allowed in every archery season. Don't get too caught up in the accuracy issue. Whether you can hit a target accurately at 50 or even 100 yards with either the arrow from a vertical bow or the bolt from a crossbow is moot, if there is insufficient kinetic energy left to impart a clean kill. Certainly you would not dispute that there are many vertical bow shooters who are capable of routinily hitting a paper plate sized target at 100 yards. But almost all responsible archers limit thier effective shooting range in a hunting situation to under 40 yards, despite having the accuracy to hit targets at furter distances. The reason? It's primarily twofold. First, the potential for an animal moving, either by "jumping the string" or just by chance, at ranges over 40 yards, is substantial. Unlike a bullet, it just takes too much time for an arrow or crossbow bolt to travel that distance, to insure that the animal won't move and turn a killing shot into a wounding shot. The second reason is that the poundage that would be required for a vertical bow user to pull, in order to provide that the arrow retains adequete energy at 100 yards is substantial. So much so, that most hunters choose not to use a bow that is strung that high, thus imposing a self induced limitation on thier effective range. Because crossbow bolts are shorter and have substantially less mass than arrows, the physics involved with their flight causes them to lose the required energy much faster than an arrow does. This results in the fact that a crossbow needs double the draw weight of a vertical bow, to provide the same amount of energy as an arrow shot from a vertical bow has. The simple fact of the matter is that both vertical bows and crossbows are essentially short range weapons with an effective killing range that is limited to around 40 yards and under. The crossbow is just as much a low impact weapon as the vertical bow, as documented by the harvest statistics from every state that has allowed full inclusion.


----------



## wildcoy73

sbooy42 said:


> Arwin give it up..it use-less
> Even though *we don't have the choice to use rifles during Dec*..they'll play the CHOICE card until you give up...Besides the choice for able hunters is already there, they just choose not to take advantage of it...
> I mean come on, they actually think an x-bow is archery:lol:.....oops I forgot to add the IMO in there some where


 Sbooy:
If you did not go out with a rifle in December that was by your choice.
The laws allow you to hunt with a rifle during December. And guess what you can even hunt deer in December with a rifle.
But you can not hunt with a crossbow during december.
Lets break this out even further.

January gun yes.....crossbow no
febuary gun yes.....crossbow no
March gun yes.......crossbow no
April gun yes.........crossbow no
May gun yes.........crossbow no
June gun yes.......crossbow no
July gun yes.......crossbow no
August gun yes.......crossbow no
September gun yes.......crossbow no
October gun yes..........crossbow no
November gun yes.........crossbow limited to two weeks
December gun yes.........crossbow no

Looking at that guns can be used all year long and a crossbow for only two weeks.
Full inclusion is about more than just deer hunting. it is a choice for all the hunting we have in this state.

So crossbow is not archery but looking at the rules and the limit put on the crossbow it is not a gun either. So what is it? And why is it so limited in what I can use it for?


----------



## sbooy42

wildcoy73 said:


> Sbooy:
> If you did not go out with a rifle in December that was by your choice.
> The laws allow you to hunt with a rifle during December. And guess what you can even hunt deer in December with a rifle.
> But you can not hunt with a crossbow during december.
> Lets break this out even further.
> 
> January gun yes.....crossbow no
> febuary gun yes.....crossbow no
> March gun yes.......crossbow no
> April gun yes.........crossbow no
> May gun yes.........crossbow no
> June gun yes.......crossbow no
> July gun yes.......crossbow no
> August gun yes.......crossbow no
> September gun yes.......crossbow no
> October gun yes..........crossbow no
> November gun yes.........crossbow limited to two weeks
> December gun yes.........crossbow no
> 
> Looking at that guns can be used all year long and a crossbow for only two weeks.
> Full inclusion is about more than just deer hunting. it is a choice for all the hunting we have in this state.
> 
> So crossbow is not archery but looking at the rules and the limit put on the crossbow it is not a gun either. So what is it? And why is it so limited in what I can use it for?


No need to break it out....I can't shoot a buck with my 30-06 on Dec 29th so thats BS becuase I dont have that choice..Instead I have to use my bow or Muzzleloader...Thats just wrong
In my area I also dont have the choice to use any weapon to shoot a doe. I have to get it done with a bow..Not my choice...
Why dont I get to keep that Bass I caught thru the ice..
Heck why do I have to wait until Oct...why cant I go hunting when I choose..It should my choice...
I should be able to do what ever I choose:evilsmile.... is what I keep hearing


----------



## wildcoy73

Answer this.
Can you go out during anytime of the year and hunt with a gun or vertical bow for a legal animal during that time and weapon of the above two?

Can I do the same on any given month with a crossbow?

This is not just about deer.

During the turkey season can I take my crossbow?
during the same season can I take a vertical bow or a gun?

You keep comparing the crossbow to a gun so why can I not do this?

Please answer the questions above.

As to your bass it is out of season, Just like a deer in January is out of season.

And why do you wait to hunt tell October? Sounds like your choice to me.
I may go up north this weekend and see if I can locate a pig. I am hunting before October first because I choose to. You have that same option.


----------



## michigandeerslayer

Did I mention I am going to be using a crossbow this year, and I might shoot a deer with it..Shhh Dont tell MBh, That i might be taking one of there deer


For a group as big as your's, you guys wine more then a teenage girl who got stood up at prom:lol:


----------



## wildcoy73

michigandeerslayer said:


> Did I mention I am going to be using a crossbow this year, and I might shoot a deer with it..Shhh Dont tell MBh, That i might be taking one of there deer
> 
> 
> For a group as big as your's, you guys wine more then a teenage girl who got stood up at prom:lol:


Not a problem they have no problem with the crossbow if you use it only during the end of November. But don't try it the rest of the year:lol:


----------



## sbooy42

wildcoy73 said:


> Answer this.
> Can you go out during anytime of the year and hunt with a gun or vertical bow for a legal animal during that time and weapon of the above two?
> 
> Can I do the same on any given month with a crossbow?
> 
> This is not just about deer.
> 
> During the turkey season can I take my crossbow?
> during the same season can I take a vertical bow or a gun?
> 
> You keep comparing the crossbow to a gun so why can I not do this?
> 
> Please answer the questions above.
> 
> As to your bass it is out of season, Just like a deer in January is out of season.
> 
> And why do you wait to hunt tell October? Sounds like your choice to me.
> I may go up north this weekend and see if I can locate a pig. I am hunting before October first because I choose to. You have that same option.


Sorry bro, I have not done the reasearch to answer your questions..But let me guess the answer is no....? I agree x-bows hould be allowed for other seasons..And I could see this happening if more MI hunters were interested in hunting turkey, bear..etc with a x-bow Unfortunately its only brought up here on MS for debate reasons..IMO i don't know anyone (non MS members) setting at home wishing they could trukey hunt with an x-bow. Because they already have enough effective choices. But it does make a good argument
But not full inclusion..IMO they don't belong in the archery season..

I still don't understand why I can shoot a deer with a muzzleloader but not a rifle in Dec..Or why I can shoot a doe with a bow but not a firearm in my county...It should be my choice...But ya know what I deal with it. And I don't feel the rules and regulations should change so I have easier choices.

Before Oct I choose to be busy with my family boating, fishing, biking, camping...etc (gotta keep them kids of the Meth)
Where's the pigs up north?


----------



## wildcoy73

I will give you a few names of guys that are not mebers that would like to hunt turkey with a crossbow. than you will now a few.
We all have choices to make. mine is getting the kids outdoors to keep them drug free.
The reason it if fought over so hard on deer in ms is that is how it is brought up all the time.
As I stated and research the rules I am for full inclusion, for it will allow me the use of the crossbow when I want to use it all during the year.


----------



## Falk

You guys need to get over it. I would like to see this on the ballot for everyone to vote on.


----------



## wildcoy73

Falk said:


> You guys need to get over it. I would like to see this on the ballot for everyone to vote on.


 Why should this need to go to a ballot? So it can get all confused up like the dove hunt did?
You think sportsman voted down the dove bill?
I now of many non hunters that would of allowed the dove hunt that voted and made a mistake and voted the wrong way.
This issue needs to be solved by us the dnr and the nrc. with us comming together and talking to the senate and the govoner. we can have our voice heard.


----------



## mikieday

I am a MBH member...and i am split on the crossbow issue...for no other reasons then pure selfishness i say keep the crossbow out ... but there is a flip side and I respect that opinion and stance also...

dont hate on me for being a fence sitter,


----------



## michigandeerslayer

mikieday said:


> I am a MBH member...and i am split on the crossbow issue...for no other reasons then pure selfishness i say keep the crossbow out ... but there is a flip side and I respect that opinion and stance also...
> 
> dont hate on me for being a fence sitter,


Mike

When you sit on the Fence is it a wooden fence or a chain link fence

Had to add some humor


----------



## Munsterlndr

Falk said:


> I would like to see this on the ballot for everyone to vote on.


Just pray that the general public does not ever get to vote on archery season in general because it would go down in flames. Still think public referendum is a good way to formulate game policy? Wow! :coco:


----------



## mikieday

michigandeerslayer said:


> Mike
> 
> When you sit on the Fence is it a wooden fence or a chain link fence
> 
> Had to add some humor



:yikes:either way it needs to be heavy duty...:lol::lol:


----------



## ridgewalker

not a member of MBH, gave it up, glad, the farce about the disabled being able to get a permit is just that, much of the nrc wording is left out of the app and the only real change is the dropping of percentages; many if not most of the physically challenged or disabled will again be left out. I heard rumors about last minute shenanigans but I didn't believe them until I read the so called new app. I have given up on ever bow hunting again, THANKS MBH.


----------



## mikieday

ridgewalker said:


> not a member of MBH, gave it up, glad, the farce about the disabled being able to get a permit is just that, much of the nrc wording is left out of the app and the only real change is the dropping of percentages; many if not most of the physically challenged or disabled will again be left out. I heard rumors about last minute shenanigans but I didn't believe them until I read the so called new app. I have given up on ever bow hunting again, THANKS MBH.


if you give up on bow hunting you can only blame or thank yourself
reguardless of who says what or does what, if you really want to hunt do it...if you dont, dont.... ...


----------



## ridgewalker

It is not that I want to - I can't without a crossbow. THANKS, MBH.



______________________________________

No One Left Out = Full Inclusion


----------



## wildcoy73

ridgewalker:
Sorry to hear your pain. To let you know we have not given up. The fight will go on untill no one falls threw. I ask you to send letter from your doctors and friend to the senate in support of full inclusion.


----------



## mikieday

if your disabled and cant use a vertical bow...like mentioned before...go to your doctor and get approved for a cross bow and have at it

nothing would stop me if it came down to not being able to draw a bow back...i would be on a mission for crossbowdom...

Mikie


----------



## Arwin

I'm the same Mike, I would use one if I had too and would do whatever it takes to keep hunting in the archery season. 
MBH did not make the final decision on the crossbow issue, it was left up to the gov't offices. From what I have been told MBH was at the root of making crossbows legal for handicap hunters when it first became an issue.:idea:


----------



## Arwin

I also read on the DNR's web-site that you can put in for a modified bow permit(Draw-Lok). I wonder if thats easier to obtain?


----------



## Arwin

My last comment for now, and I can't seem to get my edit to work(sorry for all the posts). 
For those who are bashing MBH, what other Michigan based hunting organizations do you belong to that goes to Lansing every year and fight to keep hunting laws and hunting itself going? I also belong to MUDH. These seem to be the only political hunting organizations in Michigan that I know of right now.


----------



## Michihunter

Arwin said:


> I'm the same Mike, I would use one if I had too and would do whatever it takes to keep hunting in the archery season.
> MBH did not make the final decision on the crossbow issue, it was left up to the gov't offices. From what I have been told MBH was at the root of making crossbows legal for handicap hunters when it first became an issue.:idea:


 Think about the old permit process and tell me just how that helped anyone other than a few people that could legally be considered 80% disabled? The criteria was so that you darn near needed lost limbs or be paralyzed to be eligible. And I truly believe this was their political attempt to thwart any full inclusion xbow attempts by allowing them in such a demanding disability agenda. They could then say to those that would favor inclusion that it's already available to those that "need" it. Or that you can still use them but only during firearm season. Politics at its finest really. And let's not forget the fact of the matter is that MBH fought HARD against reducing the criteria to reasonable levels. It wasn't until Sheltron decided 'to hell with them' and asked for full inclusion because MBH wouldn't budge on the reduced criteria. Now they pat themselves on the back and attempt to take credit for something they knew would pass anyway. All along playing the political fiddle that sings "Now you have no reason to ask for full inclusion." The bottom line is MBH is painting a picture of doom and gloom if xbows were to be included in the archery season for everyone and that has been refuted by every state in the country that has included them in their own seasons. If they could come up with just one good reason that is more than just their opinion regarding the adverse effects involved with full inclusion, I may give it some consideration myself. But all they keep doing is fearmongering without any plausible data to support it. Kind of ironic that they did pretty much the same thing when compounds came into existence.


----------



## ridgewalker

Strange that only first 3 criteria used for the app forms. Strange that MBH spoke to more exclusivity not less. I, too, belong to MUDH and while they may disagree with my stance on full inclusion; they at least have fought for total inclusion of the physically challenged or impaired. Gov. usually does as big influence, big money, and big lobby says. Thanks for nothing MBH.

____________________________________
No One Left Out = Full Inclusion


----------



## Arwin

Hmm... well it seems that the stories on either side are completely different. I guess we'll sitck to our own ways of thinking and maybe someday soemthing will happen to make both sides happy. If law is left up to the biologists, it will probably stay the same.

Hey, at least you can thank MBH for fighting against the gross inflation of hunting license costs. They were going to be doubled a year or so ago. You may not fully agree with them on this issue but they do alot of other stuff that most might not be aware of. I have personaly volunteered many hours to helping teach kids archery on my weekends. Mary Brown came to us to help teach Girlscouts at Camp Merrywood and the NWTF had us help out with "Jakes Day" a couple years in a row. There are many members donating countless hours for good causes (mostly kids) and shouldn't be scorned upon because of one issue.


----------



## Arwin

I totaly mispelled a ton of stuff in that last post. I need edit!!!!


----------



## Michihunter

Arwin said:


> Hmm... well it seems that the stories on either side are completely different. I guess we'll sitck to our own ways of thinking and maybe someday soemthing will happen to make both sides happy. If law is left up to the biologists, it will probably stay the same.
> 
> Hey, at least you can thank MBH for fighting against the gross inflation of hunting license costs. They were going to be doubled a year or so ago. You may not fully agree with them on this issue but they do alot of other stuff that most might not be aware of. I have personaly volunteered many hours to helping teach kids archery on my weekends. Mary Brown came to us to help teach Girlscouts at Camp Merrywood and the NWTF had us help out with "Jakes Day" a couple years in a row. There are many members donating countless hours for good causes (mostly kids) and shouldn't be scorned upon because of one issue.


You don't have to be in MBH to help children or donate your time. I would bet hard earned money that more people that are NOT MBH members help out than there are members of MBH. As for license costs, I think that was a mistake personally. Anyone that doesn't see a need for an increase in license costs is only fooling themselves. As costs of operation increases, so should the revenues needed. I was not in favor of the huge initial increase proposed but I certainly understand the need for more revenue. As far as if the biologists were making this decision, I doubt they would disallow them based on any biological reason. In fact, I think they may favor them if they used MBH's argument that more hunters would increase the deer killed.

No one is disputing the many things that MBH has done in favor of our archers and hunting in general but when they become fearmongerers with no apparent reason that can be backed by facts, they are no better than any other politician that uses these tactics.


----------



## Riva

Michihunter said:


> No one is disputing the many things that MBH has done in favor of our archers and hunting in general but when they become fearmongerers with no apparent reason that can be backed by facts, they are no better than any other politician that uses these tactics.


Comments from the June 10, 2008 House Committee presentation supporting full inclusion....

"Eight people showed up at that (first) meeting to testify in favor of crossbows, and five of them were from the crossbow industry," said Jerry Keck, a member of the Michigan Bowhunters Association, as well as the NRC's subcommittee on crossbows."
[/COLOR] 
Here it is, almost three months later and still no admission, retraction and/or apology from Mr. Keck and MBH for what was, is and always will be, a patent untruth. Michihunter, your point is well made.


----------



## mrbreeze

wildcoy73 said:


> Arwin,
> With that post I see you have not been around the crossbow.
> The crossbow I have set up has the same red dot scope as my compound, uses the same broadhead, uses the same fletching, uses a carbon shaft just like my compound, The strings are made the same.
> The big diffrent is my compound will have plenty of energy at 50 yard to make a quik kill. will the crossbow you are getting to its outerlimt in range.
> After 40yard a crossbow loses alot of energy and falls off quickly.
> 
> I would like those that are against the crossbow to get around them and see they are not a magical weapon. You must still hunt with them.
> 
> yes but I have done it with my bow plenty of time so the next step wood be a crossbow. I have done it with a pistol, rifle, shotgun, compound, and recurve. so now I should give it a try with a crossbow.


I guess if I had already invested money in a crossbow assuming a change in the law with the "same red dot scope as my compound, uses the same broadhead, uses the same fletching, uses a carbon shaft just like my compound, The strings are made the same" etc, etc, then I might be upset too 

Seriously, if this is about choice, then why can't we have the "choice" to use whatever weapon we want at any time the season is open? I mean the objective is to take down a deer right? Let's open it right up..use a rifle, shotgun, 50mm, spear, knife, explosives, pit trap...whatever it takes. We must have "choice".

I am in support of the new law as it stands, but I can't support much further at this time.


----------



## Terry Williams

If this were any other post the pro crossbow mods would have swooped in and cleaned it up. The MBH haters are out just like Halloween. I will be busy preparing for the up coming season, something the xbowers know little about. Sight and GO. 


I think no xbow this year, so put it on your Christmas List.


----------



## wildcoy73

Seriously, if this is about choice, then why can't we have the "choice" to use whatever weapon we want at any time the season is open? I mean the objective is to take down a deer right? Let's open it right up..use a rifle, shotgun, 50mm, spear, knife, explosives, pit trap...whatever it takes. We must have "choice".

I am in support of the new law as it stands, but I can't support much further at this time.[/quote]
So You believe it is fair that you can chase every other animal in the state with a gun or a Vertical bow, and a crossbow can't.
*This is about more than deer hunting*.


----------



## wildcoy73

Terry Williams said:


> If this were any other post the pro crossbow mods would have swooped in and cleaned it up. The MBH haters are out just like Halloween. I will be busy preparing for the up coming season, something the xbowers know little about. Sight and GO.
> 
> 
> I think no xbow this year, so put it on your Christmas List.


 Terry can you justify that remark about the crossbow hunter not preparing for the season?
I can get you video of a crossbow hunter working his land, seting his stand, tweaking his crossbows, and shooting every day. The same he did when he was in the ranks of the compound bow.
Before you lump a group into something you need to research it.
I know I can go sit at wal-mart on sept 29 and watch people buying bows, arrows, camos, and treestand to go hunt on the first. So is the Vertical archer lazy from what I have seen?


----------



## srconnell22

Terry Williams said:


> I will be busy preparing for the up coming season, something the xbowers know little about. Sight and GO.


I picked up my bow for the first time since December of last year, this past week, and outshot all of your people at one of your MBH sponsored bowshoots...guess my Drenalin is a crossbow! :lol:


----------



## Tom Morang

The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation
MBH supports the recommendations proposed to the Natural Resource Commission at the July 10, 2008 NRC meeting, from the Crossbow Work Group to refine the current process in crossbow application authorization and eligibility, for physically challenged hunters. The Crossbow Workgroup recommendations can be found at this link: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/14-08_Crossbow_FINAL_7.11.08_242574_7.pdf


As soon as the association knew what the recommendations were (how would one know until the group finalized their findings) we supported the workgroups report and findings. Until that time the memberships wishes(by -laws voted on by the membership at previous yearly member meetings) were what the board had to support. The legislative committee and the board of governors are convinced the new current rules are good for everyone involved. 

I also object to your language and would like to point out that at one time one of my posts was removed for use of that same opening phrase. Kindly edit your post please.

Tom


----------



## wildcoy73

Arwin:

I live and hunt just north of GR. You want to talk about hunting pressure, But each year I am able to fill my tag on public land in this area. I have started to look forward to gun season and the added hunters. I can and do see deer all day long while hunting and for the most part I do not see many other hunters while on stand. MY secerts to hunting public land is not magic, every magazine and book talks about how to hunt these araes. A few hunters with crossbow will have very little effecton my way of hunting. 
The secret to hunting high pressure deer is to think outside the box. The lazy hunter will complain and I hear it every year this place has no deer. But the hunter that puts in the time will be rewarded.


----------



## Michihunter

Arwin said:


> My biggest hang up is this:
> I mainly hunt public land, which is insane with hunter pressure already. Bow season is the only time where the deer move on a somewhat normal pattern. After Nov 15th the deer go way nocturnal and it's nearly impossible to find them with any regular movement. Human pressure has them hiding.
> Michigan has roughly 300,000 bow hunters and 700,000 gun hunters. Even if 1/3 of the gun hunters try a crossbow out during bow season , that is roughly another 200,000 people added to the woods during bow. Public land already looks like a pumpkin patch during gun season. With the muzzle loading season lengthened, combined with regular gun, the deer are pounded heavily for a month. If you add late doe for private land then your talking 6 weeks of deer getting shot at with guns.
> The archery season is no longer what it used to be, it's getting shorter already and most don't realize it. Unless your crazy like me, who would pick up a bow during December when you could reach out with a smoke pole?
> I would love to see more people hunt but we have to draw the line somewhere during the year for the deer sake. 4 weeks of letting us have our own time out of 12 weeks of deer season isn't too much to ask. We already share the late season with muzzle loaders and I can handle that.


What you contend has not been proven out in ANY state that has included the crossbow during archery season. Not even close. All the data anyone could ever wish for is out there to show that very few people will crossover into the archery season. In fact, the majority of people that would pick up the crossbow are current archers. I must ask though, would you feel differently if there were that many new recruits that shot compound and/or traditional bows? Considering that we lost almost 100K bowhunters over the last 10 years, were your sentiments the same back in 1995? Was too crowded for you back then too?

As far as December bowhunters, I would bet there are more bowhunters than ML hunters during that month. You are not the only "crazy" one as you say. There are MANY of us that choose bow over firearms. And I'm not sure what season you were looking at but the archery season hasn't been shortened at all and won't be with the inclusion of another archery weapon. What has happened with the ML season and others has NOTHING to do with a crossbow. Would you be willing to cut your season even shorter, as you allege, to allow for a separate crossbow season? Because that's a distinct possibility for those against full inclusion. Wouldn't it be ironic to those against it if they were to be the reason for a shortened compound/traditional season? Because eventually crossbows are going to be used to hunt with by everyone in a proper archery season. Whether it be as an exclusive weapon or included with the others is the only question.


----------



## Michihunter

Tom Morang said:


> The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation
> MBH supports the recommendations proposed to the Natural Resource Commission at the July 10, 2008 NRC meeting, from the Crossbow Work Group to refine the current process in crossbow application authorization and eligibility, for physically challenged hunters. The Crossbow Workgroup recommendations can be found at this link: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/14-08_Crossbow_FINAL_7.11.08_242574_7.pdf
> 
> 
> As soon as the association knew what the recommendations were (how would one know until the group finalized their findings) we supported the workgroups report and findings. Until that time the memberships wishes(by -laws voted on by the membership at previous yearly member meetings) were what the board had to support. The legislative committee and the board of governors are convinced the new current rules are good for everyone involved.
> 
> I also object to your language and would like to point out that at one time one of my posts was removed for use of that same opening phrase. Kindly edit your post please.
> 
> Tom


Tom- That is bull puckey and you know it.To say that they were against it until they knew what the recommendations were is a spin beyond even the current Presidential campaigns. They were against ANY alterations to the old criteria. It was posted on their own website until a few weeks ago. 

Of course the current board is 'convinced" the rules are good for everybody. That is nothing more than another restriction. I'm not sure how naive some people are but the best way to disclude the use of a crossbow by everyone is to restrict its use to a few. Politics at its finest. Sorry bud but some of us are beyond these subtle attempts to restrict an archery weapon from being used during an archery season.


----------



## November Sunrise

Tom Morang said:


> The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation
> MBH supports the recommendations proposed to the Natural Resource Commission at the July 10, 2008 NRC meeting, from the Crossbow Work Group to refine the current process in crossbow application authorization and eligibility, for physically challenged hunters. The Crossbow Workgroup recommendations can be found at this link: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/14-08_Crossbow_FINAL_7.11.08_242574_7.pdf
> 
> 
> As soon as the association knew what the recommendations were (how would one know until the group finalized their findings) we supported the workgroups report and findings. Until that time the memberships wishes(by -laws voted on by the membership at previous yearly member meetings) were what the board had to support. The legislative committee and the board of governors are convinced the new current rules are good for everyone involved.
> 
> I also object to your language and would like to point out that at one time one of my posts was removed for use of that same opening phrase. Kindly edit your post please.
> 
> Tom


That doesn't fly Tom. 

The thread topic implies that MBH advocated for changes in the disability criteria. 

The reality is that they advocated for over six months on their website against lowering the disability criteria to anything lower than 80%. The MBH reps pulled a stunt during one of the final workgroup meetings when they attempted to lower the minimum draw weight criteria to 30 lbs with no time frame for how long to hold the draw. This conduct was inexcusable and did inestimable damage to the groups reputation within the leadership of the DNR and NRC and in the eyes of those of us who have been attentive to this issue. 

This is not a discussion about full inclusion, where good people can and do disagree. This is a discussion about the facts of how MBH functioned as obstructionists in the workgroup and advocated on their website their stance that there should be no reduction in the 80% disability criteria. The way MBH conducted themselves on this issue is clear and without dispute, and I strongly reject any attempts at revisionist history.


----------



## Tom Morang

You are of course entitled to your distorted view and biased opinion no matter how wrong it is. Crossbow merchants on that committee tried to hi-jac the committees directions and it didn't work, that is surely plain to see.

 You can piss down my neck but don't tell me it's raining.


----------



## November Sunrise

Tom Morang said:


> You are of course entitled to your distorted view and biased opinion no matter how wrong it is.


Please explain why MBH reps advocated that a disabled person who can pull back a 30 lb draw weight bow for a fraction of a second should be denied a crossbow permit:

*From the June NRC Crossbow Disability Work Group:*

Here's a link to the minutes:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...s_242003_7.pdf

From page 13:

Following discussion, Bruce Levey made a motion, supported by Jerry *Keck*, to change the draft permit testing criteria to 30 pounds of resistance and to eliminate the four second hold requirement. Motion failed with 6 voting yes and 7 voting no. 

*Just in case this isn't clear, this is a case where the MBH reps voted to make the approval process more difficult for those with disabilities. Instead of sticking with what the work group had passed in May (can an applicant draw a 35 lb bow and hold it for 4 seconds?)they instead proposed that if an individual can draw 30 lbs and hold it for even a fraction of a second then that individual should be denied a crossbow permit. *

In addition, please explain why MBH advocated not lowering the disabilty criteria to anything less than 80%. The statement below is an exact quote that was on the MBH website until a few weeks ago:

MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. *However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%.* Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused. We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues.


----------



## Michihunter

Tom- Where in the minutes do you see anyone that hijacked the meeting that would be considered a crossbow merchant? I believe that little tidbit offered up by Keck has been thoroughly refuted. Were you there by chance?


----------



## Tom Morang

Jeff, I explained it in my post above. Is it too hard to believe that some of us didn't think that using percentages at all was the proper way to issue permits? 
We wanted a different and more equitable process too but in order for the board to give it's ok on that process we had to wait for the workgroups findings. That is why the old policy statement was on the site for so long.

We also advocate issuing temporary permits for those who may not be permanently disabled. (i.e. broken arms, surgery etc.)


----------



## Arwin

wildcoy73 said:


> Arwin:
> 
> I live and hunt just north of GR. You want to talk about hunting pressure, But each year I am able to fill my tag on public land in this area. I have started to look forward to gun season and the added hunters. I can and do see deer all day long while hunting and for the most part I do not see many other hunters while on stand. MY secerts to hunting public land is not magic, every magazine and book talks about how to hunt these araes. A few hunters with crossbow will have very little effecton my way of hunting.
> The secret to hunting high pressure deer is to think outside the box. The lazy hunter will complain and I hear it every year this place has no deer. But the hunter that puts in the time will be rewarded.



Please feel free to click on my name and check my profile pics. You will see that I'm far from a lazy hunter on public grounds. Ya gotta go where nobody wants to. Still, the added pressure does nothing to help.:16suspect


----------



## Tom Morang

Michi-

Are you saying there were no crossbow merchants on the NRC workgroup committee? I know there were.

Are you also saying that they were there to represent the aged, the physically challenged? That's a stretch.

They were there for their own self interest, to sell more crossbows.

I think that it's very plain to see that the professionals(Dr.s and PT's) also disagreed with some of the recommendations made by the crossbow reps.


----------



## wildcoy73

Arwin said:


> Please feel free to click on my name and check my profile pics. You will see that I'm far from a lazy hunter on public grounds. Ya gotta go where nobody wants to. Still, the added pressure does nothing to help.:16suspect


 The extra pressure during rifle helps me out a great deal. bring on the extra hunters. I will still have a freezer full at the end of the season.


----------



## Michihunter

Tom Morang said:


> Jeff, I explained it in my post above. Is it too hard to believe that some of us didn't think that using percentages at all was the proper way to issue permits?
> We wanted a different and more equitable process too but in order for the board to give it's ok on that process we had to wait for the workgroups findings. That is why the old policy statement was on the site for so long.
> 
> We also advocate issuing temporary permits for those who may not be permanently disabled. (i.e. broken arms, surgery etc.)


No more harder to believe than some of your members want full inclusion. What do you say to those you are supposedly representing? 

I think the statement was fairly clear Tom. *MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters.* That current standard referred to was 80% disability. Seems rather apparent that the organization did in fact support a percentage. 80% in fact. Pretty hard to spin something that was clearly outlined in their statement. Of course that was changed rather quickly after realizing Sheltron was gonna do an end around and ask for full inclusion instead of a relaxed criteria.


----------



## Michihunter

Tom Morang said:


> Michi-
> 
> Are you saying there were no crossbow merchants on the NRC workgroup committee? I know there were.
> 
> Are you also saying that they were there to represent the aged, the physically challenged? That's a stretch.
> 
> They were there for their own self interest, to sell more crossbows.
> 
> I think that it's very plain to see that the professionals(Dr.s and PT's) also disagreed with some of the recommendations made by the crossbow reps.


Ain't saying that all Tom. I was disputing the statement you made regarding hijacking the meeting. I'm still looking for that and have yet to find anything that could even be remotely considered a hijack. 

Imagine that, a crossbow merchant wanting to sell crossbows. Who'd have thunk such a preposterous notion. What does that have to do with your statement? Is that what MBH is fighting against? Crossbow sales?


----------



## ESOX

For the life of me I cannot figure out how MBH can expect me to accept that its interest in fighting full crossbow inclusion lies in "protecting our bow hunting heritage". The crossbow has been around eons longer that the wheeled/ cammed compounds they are "protecting" Personally the only reason I can see for them to be against crossbows is that they don't want more hunters in the woods.


----------



## November Sunrise

Tom Morang said:


> Jeff, I explained it in my post above. Is it too hard to believe that some of us didn't think that using percentages at all was the proper way to issue permits?
> We wanted a different and more equitable process too but in order for the board to give it's ok on that process we had to wait for the workgroups findings. That is why the old policy statement was on the site for so long.
> 
> We also advocate issuing temporary permits for those who may not be permanently disabled. (i.e. broken arms, surgery etc.)


In terms of too hard to believe, here's what I believe/see:

1) The organizational statement opposed lowering the disability criteria to anything less than 80%. In light of the fact that everyone knows disabled individuals who have fallen through the cracks under the current structure, to have advocated on their website for the disability criteria to remain at 80% is untenable.
2) For the MBH reps to have advocated at the June workgroup meeting that a disabled person who could struggle to pull 30 lbs one time for a fraction of a second should be denied a crossbow permit is truly unbelievable. 
3) I think very highly of many of the MBH members that I know, including Erik who started this thread and yourself. I also believe that MBH has on many topics been a very positive influence in our state. Recent examples would include advocating on behalf of your membership to get the early antlerless season moved to September rather than October as originally proposed, and the recommendation by one of your board members at the May NRC meeting to have antlerless tags become good for the entire SLP (the ZZ tag concept) rather than by DMU. However, in respect to crossbow permits for disabled hunters, the conduct of MBH reps in the workgroup along with the position statement previously advocated on MBH's website has really tarnished the group's reputation.

I'm heading out the door, and once I get back this afternoon I'm not going to jump back into this. The final word on this topic, if you so desire, is yours.


----------



## Whit1

Falk said:


> You guys need to get over it. I would like to see this on the ballot for everyone to vote on.


 
That is the very last thing that we'd like to see happen. It would be a disaster for hunting in the state by giving PETA, HSUS, and other stridently anti-hunting groups and individuals the platform they would need to destroy hunting as we know it. Never put our hunting and fishing rights up for a vote..............how does one spell Dove Hunting Bill!!!!


----------



## Tom Morang

Michihunter said:


> Ain't saying that all Tom. I was disputing the statement you made regarding hijacking the meeting. I'm still looking for that and have yet to find anything that could even be remotely considered a hijack.
> 
> Imagine that, a crossbow merchant wanting to sell crossbows. Who'd have thunk such a preposterous notion. What does that have to do with your statement? Is that what MBH is fighting against? Crossbow sales?


I don't think you will find that in the minutes. I said they tried to hi-jac the processes of the committee. You had to be there. 


You are right, they were there for the sole purpose of selling more crossbows, not to necessarily help those that really need help.

And why are they so vocally against the use of a modified bow? Could it possibly temper the sale of crossbows?

BTW, we don't oppose the sale of crossbows. We encourage the use of them during the gun season and by the physically challenged as outlined in the new rules.

Jeff, thank you, I too am going for a walk. Won't post again on this thread. Life is too short.


----------



## Michihunter

Tom Morang said:


> BTW, we don't oppose the sale of crossbows. We encourage the use of them during the gun season and by the physically challenged as outlined in the new rules.


Than why would you use that in defense of your agenda? Irrelevant to the issue at hand really. It's just more fearmongering produced by the MBH to try and thwart any attempts for full inclusion. Watch out for the Big Bad Wolf who happens to wear a merchants suit? Kind of lame don't you think? And certainly not a reason to oppose inclusion. Yet MBH continues to tell us that it is. Why?


----------



## Terry Williams

Michihunter and his big tent philosophy. I bet you want to bulldoze the Appalachian trail so its down hill both ways so everybody can hike it. They can sell more hiking shoes that way, oh I forgot to mention pave it too.


----------



## jmmturkey

Thank Michigan Bow HUnters for what? No matter what the present MBH's administration now says, the MBH have been against any use of crossbows by anyone until recently. Being a longtime member of MBH and by the way, no I didn't join the organization because the Horizontal Bowhunter suggested that I infiltrate the MBH; but I have agreed to disagree with the MBH stand on crossbows. But now the lies and half truths to attain their goals, have hurt the organization. Why do you think that every member last year was given a free membership to give away? They aren't represnting the Michigan bowhunter anymore. Just a few who are still living in the dark ages.


----------



## Terry Williams

Riva as usual a lot of bluster about nothing, we don't stop the young, in fact we do more to introduce youngsters to archery than anyone else in the state. We don't stop the elderly, look at our ranks, We don't stop the disabled, the process has become easier. *We are against the able bodied using the xbow.* 

In fact we don't stop anyone, they stop themselves from "bow" hunting. 

You and your INTERNET commando's can continue to rant and rave, but as of yet your goal of full intrusion hasn't been realized.


----------



## Terry Williams

jmmturkey said:


> Thank Michigan Bow HUnters for what? No matter what the present MBH's administration now says, the MBH have been against any use of crossbows by anyone until recently. Being a longtime member of MBH and by the way, no I didn't join the organization because the Horizontal Bowhunter suggested that I infiltrate the MBH; but I have agreed to disagree with the MBH stand on crossbows. But now the lies and half truths to attain their goals, have hurt the organization. Why do you think that every member last year was given a free membership to give away? They aren't represnting the Michigan bowhunter anymore. Just a few who are still living in the dark ages.



Let me correct you only members with over 5 years of membership were given a membership as a way to give back to our longtime members.


----------



## Michihunter

Terry Williams said:


> Riva as usual a lot of bluster about nothing, we don't stop the young, in fact we do more to introduce youngsters to archery than anyone else in the state. We don't stop the elderly, look at our ranks, We don't stop the disabled, the process has become easier. *We are against the able bodied using the xbow.*
> 
> In fact we don't stop anyone, they stop themselves from "bow" hunting.
> 
> You and your INTERNET commando's can continue to rant and rave, but as of yet your goal of full intrusion hasn't been realized.


No you DON'T 'decide'. You LOBBY against Freedom of Choice. And obviously against the wishes of some of your members.


----------



## ESOX

Terry Williams said:


> Let me correct you only members with over 5 years of membership were given a membership as a way to give back to our longtime members.



You will have to do something to retain membership. It has become plainly obvious what type of organization MBH is. I imagine you will be getting some type of award from PETA for doing your best to keep hunters out of the woods.

For the record, I don't crossbow, I have no interest in Xbowing at the present time. I still use my 20+ yr old wheeled gizmo thingie pulling 78#. HOWEVER, I will not begrudge anyone the right to xbow if they desire. Our duty is to protect and expand hunting opportunity, not to limit it.


----------



## Riva

Terry Williams said:


> Riva as usual a lot of bluster about nothing, we don't stop the young, in fact we do more to introduce youngsters to archery than anyone else in the state. We don't stop the elderly, look at our ranks, We don't stop the disabled, the process has become easier. *We are against the able bodied using the xbow.*
> 
> In fact we don't stop anyone, they stop themselves from "bow" hunting.
> 
> You and your INTERNET commando's can continue to rant and rave, but as of yet your goal of full intrusion hasn't been realized.



A recurring theme indeed there, Terry. You and the MBH are "against" a lot of things. Sort of sums it up.

When you stop full inclusion, you deny the young. And, when you deny one, you have denied all

When you stop full inclusion, you deny the old. And, when you deny one, you have denied them all.

When you stop full inclusion, you deny free choice. And, when you have denied one, you have denied them all.

Terry, The MBH is all about one thing..DENIAL. You guys are pretty darn good at it. Well, read my lips..change is coming and you and the rest of the MBH obstructionists will soon be on the outside looking in! 

Internet bluster? Try 94-14 for full inclusion. That aint bluster, Terry. That's the writing on the wall.


----------



## Terry Williams

Michihunter said:


> No you DON'T 'decide'. You LOBBY against Freedom of Choice. And obviously against the wishes of some of your members.



There are lots of examples were in the hunting/fishing world we don't have your so called "FREEDOM of CHOICE". They still have choices not just the ones you want.

No matter what stance we take we are going to have some members against were we stand. We published a letter this month by a member that feels we should allow crossbows. So what, every organization has members that are unhappy with a certain position. 

You only need too read the baiting thread to see how divided hunters are.


----------



## Terry Williams

Riva said:


> A recurring theme indeed there, Terry. You and the MBH are "against" a lot of things. Sort of sums it up.
> 
> When you stop full inclusion, you deny the young. And, when you deny one, you have denied all
> 
> When you stop full inclusion, you deny the old. And, when you deny one, you have denied them all.
> 
> When you stop full inclusion, you deny free choice. And, when you have denied one, you have denied them all.
> 
> Terry, The MBH is all about one thing..DENIAL. You guys are pretty darn good at it. Well, read my lips..change is coming and you and the rest of the MBH obstructionists will soon be on the outside looking in!
> 
> Internet bluster? Try 94-14 for full inclusion. That aint bluster, Terry. That's the writing on the wall.



So Riva when are you going to attack the Appalachian Trail, hundreds of thousand are being denied the privilege, the young, the elderly, the disabled.

Riva do you need a real bow, I can send you one?


----------



## ESOX

All this horsepuckey about the Appalachian Trail, just a diversionary tactic to distract from the real issue. MBH has consistently stood in the middle of the trail doing it's best to deny anyone who doesn't aree with it's skewed vision of what the bowhunting heritage is. Compound bows and heritage........LMAO


----------



## Michihunter

Terry Williams said:


> There are lots of examples were in the hunting/fishing world we don't have your so called "FREEDOM of CHOICE". They still have choices not just the ones you want.
> 
> No matter what stance we take we are going to have some members against were we stand. We published a letter this month by a member that feels we should allow crossbows. So what, every organization has members that are unhappy with a certain position.
> 
> You only need too read the baiting thread to see how divided hunters are.


And if the reasons for that lack of freedom is due to an adverse effect that the freedom would cause, then it's reasonable to assume that there is in fact a reason for it. Unfortunately that is not an argument that holds weight for the crossbow. It has no adverse effects to hunter nor herd.


----------



## Terry Williams

ESOX said:


> All this horsepuckey about the Appalachian Trail, just a diversionary tactic to distract from the real issue. MBH has consistently stood in the middle of the trail doing it's best to deny anyone who doesn't aree with it's skewed vision of what the bowhunting heritage is. Compound bows and heritage........LMAO



I think we stand at the trail head willing and able to give those that desire the expirence a helping hand. 

So you want to bull doze the trail too?


----------



## Riva

Terry Williams said:


> So Riva when are you going to attack the Appalachian Trail, hundreds of thousand are being denied the privilege, the young, the elderly, the disabled.
> 
> Riva do you need a real bow, I can send you one?


Terry, the trouble with your analogy is that is confirms your policy of exclusion. You see, you say "if you can't traverse the Appalachian Trail, God must have dealt you a bad set of cards and that's just too darn bad." 

The thinking person, the compassionate person says, "how do I accommodate those who can not traverse the trail and make it so they can." 

As for a real bow, I have one. I simply cannot use it any longer due to a degenerative disease I have had for many decades. So, in its stead, I use another real bow, a Horton. Thanks anyway, pally.


----------



## ESOX

I see he can't let go of the moronic Appalachian Trail analogy. Guess when you have nothing to back up your stance you have to grasp at straws.


----------



## Terry Williams

Its not my policy that excludes then firm the trail. Its also not the policy of MBH to exclude anyone from bow hunting, we just have a different definition of what a bow is.

I like you new tag line, it made me actually laugh out loud. I read on another site that your not a joiner. But we are having a meeting in Lapeer in a couple of weeks maybe you would like to come as my guest and you could explain your position to the entire board and the members who will be attending.

Maybe some of them will denounce MBH. Pally.


----------



## wildcoy73

Terry Williams said:


> I think we stand at the trail head willing and able to give those that desire the expirence a helping hand.
> 
> So you want to bull doze the trail too?


 A guide at the head of the trail gives all a helping hand, not just the ones he so choosen. i must thank you terry the more this goes on the more pm I am receiving from my fellow hunters that can for one reason or another enjoy our woods Equally as we can. Soon these will be sent by a small voice to the senate where I believe the emotion and gradification of all these notes will show threw. So in the end it will be the voice of the people heard and I will just be the gentelman delivering the final blow to the MBH. This will be one small step for myself But a large step forward in the Michigan Outdoors.


----------



## Terry Williams

ESOX said:


> I see he can't let go of the moronic Appalachian Trail analogy. Guess when you have nothing to back up your stance you have to grasp at straws.




No actually I have lots of moronic thoughts. So if I come up with another analogy would that make you at least raise me to the level of an idiot?


----------



## wildcoy73

Terry Williams said:


> Its not my policy that excludes then firm the trail. Its also not the policy of MBH to exclude anyone from bow hunting, we just have a different definition of what a bow is.
> 
> I like you new tag line, it made me actually laugh out loud. I read on another site that your not a joiner. But we are having a meeting in Lapeer in a couple of weeks maybe you would like to come as my guest and you could explain your position to the entire board and the members who will be attending.
> 
> Maybe some of them will denounce MBH. Pally.


Terry:
Will there be a bow and gun range set up? 
I would like to show up with my shotgun and compound. I would also like one of my fellow crossbow hunter to be with me.
We will go out and shot the three weapons and show the group what the truth is on the crossbow. Your group will see first hand that the crossbow is not a gun, and many will be in shock when they see the compound is a more powerfull weapon than the crossbow at that.
What day will this be on?
THE TRUTH CAN SHOW!


----------



## Michihunter

Well lets use your analogy once again to show just how backwards your thinking seems to be. You are against ABLE BODIED people using a crossbow yet use an analogy that shows a hinderance to people who are not able bodied. So what is it *exactly* you are saying?


----------



## Terry Williams

wildcoy73 said:


> A guide at the head of the trail gives all a helping hand, not just the ones he so choosen. i must thank you terry the more this goes on the more pm I am receiving from my fellow hunters that can for one reason or another enjoy our woods Equally as we can. Soon these will be sent by a small voice to the senate where I believe the emotion and gradification of all these notes will show threw. So in the end it will be the voice of the people heard and I will just be the gentelman delivering the final blow to the MBH. This will be one small step for myself But a large step forward in the Michigan Outdoors.



I read your new signature line, do you want to hunt ducks with your crossbow? Or do you want to use lead shot? Or do you want to be able to bait them?

September 13 and 14th at Lapeer County Sportsman Club


----------



## wildcoy73

ARWIN;

So if I get this right if I was to pay{give away a free membership offered to all members of MBH to do} Than you might be behind my stance with the crossbow.:lol::lol::lol:
Was so nice of you to leave out that little bit of info when you said Terry paid for it.
I'm still having a good chuckle finding this out.


----------



## wildcoy73

Terry Williams said:


> I read your new signature line, do you want to hunt ducks with your crossbow? Or do you want to use lead shot? Or do you want to be able to bait them?


 Open your eyes it is pretty clear with my statement.
Crossbow for all during all season, that a bow and gun are allowed in.


----------



## TrekJeff

Terry Williams said:


> So Riva when are you going to attack the Appalachian Trail, hundreds of thousand are being denied the privilege, the young, the elderly, the disabled.
> 
> Riva do you need a real bow, I can send you one?



I'll take one, I'm still using dad's old recurve...lol


One point that get's under my skin about the qualification for use of the cross bow is that definate number of 80%. Dad had reconstructive surgery on his left shoulder a few years after he retired from the police force. Because he has full "movement" he doesn't qualify to use a cross bow. He doesn't have the strength to draw a regular bow...so would the MBH's say he has no recourse? I already know what the state says.
Oh, forgot to mention, he WAS a member of MBH and shot strictly traditional.


----------



## wildcoy73

Hey guys my bow must be a crossbow!
Do to a medical problem last year I had to put my bow down in November. Did not hunt at all in December.
Had another member from the sight stop by the house with his bow so we could set it up.
Well went into the closet blew the dust off my bow pulled up and three arrows latter they were all in a 1/2" group. So it was just sight in and shoot when I feel like it. 
If I am correct this is the definition that the MBH is given the crossbow.
Man I wish I would of bought a smaller crossbow than the xi legend.:lol:


----------



## ESOX

MBH has no real interest in allowing anyone to easily obtain a permit unless they are so disabled their ability to hunt at all is questionable. It's just a little smug feeling they get knowing that they can pull a bow, therefore they should have access to the woods before anyone else. I call it selfishness.


Arwin said:


> I'm not a hate mongor, I'm just in favor of trying to keep the archery season pure and low pressure.





Terry Williams said:


> No I don't care about there shoes, but if they can't hike it like it is, stay off or get in shape. Not everyone can make the trip.


----------



## Terry Williams

Geez Esox, you have exposed us, yes it is true we are against full intrusion of the xbow.


----------



## ESOX

What a great comeback. 
No denial that it's all about selfishness. LOL


----------



## Terry Williams

ESOX said:


> What a great comeback.
> No denial that it's all about selfishness. LOL



If I could qoute you you said "we all are selfish". 

You use the term selfish and I choose protective. MBH has fought long and hard for the ever eroding archery season and we view full intrusion as another threat.


----------



## Michihunter

Terry Williams said:


> If I could qoute you you said "we all are selfish".
> 
> You use the term selfish and I choose protective. MBH has fought long and hard for the ever eroding archery season and we view full intrusion as another threat.


A threat to who or what? "Your" deer? "Your" area?:lol::lol: Because there's no data proving any "threat" to an archery season or deer herd regardless of the fearmongering MBH perpetuates.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Been gone for a few days enjoying the holiday weekend. I look at this thread and just have to laugh. You guys are acting like MBH is still relevant. 300,000 bow hunters in Michigan and MBH's membership has fallen steadily and is now less than 1,500 individuals. Not exactly a bastion of support from the ranks of those archers who they claim to represent. Our buddy Terry comes from the great state of Ohio, where crossbows have been legal for over 20 years. Close to 300,000 bow hunters in ohio and the membership in OBH has fallen to only 600 members and they are about to lose a good chunk of those over the debate about some ridiculous wording in their mission statement. These guys have become a joke. 94 Reps supported the crossbow legislation, clearly MBH was viewed as a capon when it comes to wielding any amount of political advocacy. A majority of MUCC member organizations recently voted to support full crossbow inclusion, what happened to MBH's dominating influence within MUCC that they were publicly crowing about just a few short years ago? They have become reduced to a bunch of guys who regularly go to the NRC meetings and pretty much oppose anything that gets suggested. If you had to describe the organization a few words come to mind. Short sighted? yes. Misguided? Certainly. But the most appropriate would be simply *irrelevant!*


----------



## Terry Williams

Ya think or Ya hope.


----------



## Terry Williams

Oh since we are so irrelevant which one of you is one the NRC crossbow committee?


----------



## 2PawsRiver

> But the most appropriate would be simply irrelevant!


I wouldn't say irrelevant is the word, more like "Out Dated", operating under such concepts as Tradition, Preservation, Values. 

Unfortunately todays archer is not concerned with such concepts, and steers towards easy, instantanious and views deer hunting as merely shooting deer.

You're arguing with people who see things in a whole different light as don't even speak the same language.

Good Luck:lol:


----------



## Michihunter

2PawsRiver said:


> I wouldn't say irrelevant is the word, more like "Out Dated", operating under such concepts as Tradition, Preservation, Values.
> 
> Unfortunately todays archer is not concerned with such concepts, and steers towards easy, instantanious and views deer hunting as merely shooting deer.
> 
> You're arguing with people who see things in a whole different light as don't even speak the same language.
> 
> Good Luck:lol:


*Tradition?* Just how long of a tradition is the compound bow? Or even the bow season for that matter? Is something that new to existence even considered tradition?
*Preservation?* Of what? A "tradition" that is less than a generation or two old? Or their own positions on issues that seemingly change only according to public pressure? And then only in attempt to maintain their agenda?
*Values?* Saying the MBH has values regarding the crossbow issue is laughable. They have used every political trick possible to further their own agenda. Their membership encompasses less than a 1/2 percent of the total population of bowhunters yet they presume to speak for us all. They have lied, misconstrued, deceived, and promoted fear without any provable statistics. All in the name of Preservation and Tradition? Yeah, they have values. They're known as Greed and Selfishness:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Riva

Terry Williams said:


> Oh since we are so irrelevant which one of you is one the NRC crossbow committee?


My presence was not only known, but acknowledged. All you have to do is read the public record. 

Come to think of it, I can't recall any letters written by you personally surrounding this subject, Terry. Perhaps you believed that Mr. Levey and Mr. Keck would be sufficient to once again, "carry the wood" for you guys. Obviously, that did not happen.

Perhaps it's time for you and the other rank and file MBH members to fire the MBH bosses. They obviously aint doing you any favors during this historic episode.


----------



## CHASINEYES

Arwin said:


> I think the first three days of gun season is the best bow hunting around. I stay put and let the other hunters push the deer to me. After that the deer become mostly nocturnal and don't poke their heads out till the middle of December. I wouldn't want that same scenario a week into October. I forgot to add small game hunters to the mix. The deer already feel the human pressure in the middle of September, even if they're not being pursued. Bow hunting small game is of my favorite things and I don't want to diminish that, but I'm sure it plays a part on deer behavior.
> 
> I will add that if the full inclusion had passed, I would still go out and hunt with any of the pro-crossbow guys. I'm not a hate mongor, I'm just in favor of trying to keep the archery season pure and low pressure.


Good post! Pure. We have plenty of pressure. Cant believe this argument is still going after the ease of crossbow permit requirements.


----------



## anonymous7242016

I don't know the exact number but I know its around 300k bowhunters in Michigan every year. I would like to see 150k quit hunting all together and then the guys who dedicate themselves to making food plots, scouting all year, practice shooting their weapons, practicing QDM, educating themselves on their quarry, taking kids out, improving habitat, stopping the anti's, helping farmers, and just being all around good people, can go out and enjoy themselves after the other half you know the guys who..........think just because their bowhunting public land a bird hunter cant, drink beer and litter in the woods, go hunting one week a year and call themselves hunters(there is a difference between going hunting and being a hunter), think their ted nugent, push all their beliefs on the rest of us(you can preach but don't push) and lastly the guy who spends $3000-$20000 on highfenced ranches every year and brags about how many more trophies he has compared to the guy who works hard just to enjoy the his outdoor experiences. The choice for cross bows in the hands of the 150k real hunters, would then be fine as long as it doesn't recruit a bunch of idiots like the way all the top dollar marketing does in the "hunting industry". Good luck.


----------



## Arwin

wildcoy73 said:


> ARWIN;
> 
> So if I get this right if I was to pay{give away a free membership offered to all members of MBH to do} Than you might be behind my stance with the crossbow.:lol::lol::lol:
> Was so nice of you to leave out that little bit of info when you said Terry paid for it.
> I'm still having a good chuckle finding this out.


Hmmm.... I guess if I was some big shot politician and you were some crossbow manufacturer and paid for some huge hunt to try and sway my opinion that crossbows are good......oh wait thats already happened!


----------



## Arwin

Esox you took a part of my quote and tried to make me look like a bad person. You left out the first part of that paragraph where I stated if full inclusion had passed, I would still share camp with any crossbow user.


----------



## Arwin

DOES THIS LOOK LIKE GREED AND SELFISHNESS?


----------



## ESOX

Arwin said:


> Esox you took a part of my quote and tried to make me look like a bad person. You left out the first part of that paragraph where I stated if full inclusion had passed, I would still share camp with any crossbow user.


That doesn't change the fact that you fought tooth and nail against full inclusion does it?


----------



## Arwin

Some of us have spent $100's in gas and donated countless hours trying to keep kids away from the tube and recruit them into the outdoor way of life. I really enjoy teaching and I hope that some of the opposition finds merit in our efforts.


----------



## Arwin

ESOX said:


> That doesn't change the fact that you fought tooth and nail against full inclusion does it?


 I didn't do it with an angry face if that helps.


----------



## Terry Williams

Riva look at those pictures those are real kids, shooting real bows. I believe those are MBH members too.


----------



## Michihunter

Arwin said:


> Some of us have spent $100's in gas and donated countless hours trying to keep kids away from the tube and recruit them into the outdoor way of life. I really enjoy teaching and I hope that some of the opposition finds merit in our efforts.


I personally appreciate the efforts of the few that actually do get involved Arwin and my hat goes off to you. I'm wondering though if some of those kids wouldn't also like tohunt with a weapon they could use proficiently without worrying about wounding a deer? The Genesis and the trad bows are a nice learning tool but I sincerely hope they are using something other than that to hunt with. Unfortunately a lot of them will have to continue to wait until they gain body maturity and strength because a weapon that could be used has been lobbied against by the same group that is trying to get them involved. Ironic don't you think?


----------



## Terry Williams

Riva said:


> My presence was not only known, but acknowledged. All you have to do is read the public record.
> 
> Come to think of it, I can't recall any letters written by you personally surrounding this subject, Terry. Perhaps you believed that Mr. Levey and Mr. Keck would be sufficient to once again, "carry the wood" for you guys. Obviously, that did not happen.
> 
> Perhaps it's time for you and the other rank and file MBH members to fire the MBH bosses. They obviously aint doing you any favors during this historic episode.


Don't spin your presence at a meeting to being on a committee. 

I have written my letters to Senators.


----------



## Terry Williams

Michihunter said:


> I personally appreciate the efforts of the few that actually do get involved Arwin and my hat goes off to you. I'm wondering though if some of those kids wouldn't also like tohunt with a weapon they could use proficiently without worrying about wounding a deer? The Genesis and the trad bows are a nice learning tool but I sincerely hope they are using something other than that to hunt with. Unfortunately a lot of them will have to continue to wait until they gain body maturity and strength because a weapon that could be used has been lobbied against by the same group that is trying to get them involved. Ironic don't you think?


Exactly how young would you like the children to be able to hunt?


----------



## Michihunter

Terry Williams said:


> Exactly how young would you like the children to be able to hunt?


As young as possiible. Unfortunately there's a 10 yr old minimum so we can start there for now (unfortunately the majority won't be proficient or capable). All others will just go to OH.


----------



## swampbuck

Terry Williams said:


> Don't spin your presence at a meeting to being on a committee.
> 
> I have written my letters to Senators.


 Whose senators yours or ours. I am surprised that ohios senators are interested.

I have wrote MY state senators also. The theme of my letters was the MBHA tactics and lies. The was even a paragraph with qoutes about theyre non-resident governor.


----------



## Terry Williams

swampbuck said:


> Whose senators yours or ours. I am surprised that ohios senators are interested.
> 
> I have wrote MY state senators also. The theme of my letters was the MBHA tactics and lies. The was even a paragraph with qoutes about theyre non-resident governor.


Riva brought up letters to the NRC, and yes I did write a letters to several Michigan Senators.

Make sure you spell my name right.


----------



## wildcoy73

How young is to young?
That should be up to the parent, and The kind hunter that is taking the youth hunting. Many states allow Youths to hunt with rifle at a younger age than Michigan. And you do not see an increase in accidents. In fact Michigans own report shows Youth are less likely to have an accident that an adult while hunting.
I personally have taken at troubled youths on deer hunts. With donation from fellow hunters we had them in full gear. This made them feel part of something, all the good words they where getting showed them that the life they where living was not the best choice.
On average grade point went up 2.25 percent, days missing from school droped to about 2 days a year, And even the parents could tell a diffrent after the hunt.
Why should we wait to get all youths involved. These are not my children, and at the start I do not know the youth I take with me. But with a positive outlet and rolemodel We sportsman can change the future of the world.
Now by allowing crossbows at a younger I can reach out and touch them earlier, also I can reach out to the ones that are gun shy.
If allowing crossbows into the archery season Helps me make the diffrent in one child, than everything I have done and others that are for this is well worth The few extra people we will have.


----------



## Pinefarm

Let's cool off any fighting for right now. CWD is on us now. We may re-open this, but let's take a break from all the bashing for a bit, eh?


----------

