# CWAC meeting?



## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> can someone hunt with just a spinner and shoot birds? yes. Is that easy? sure. but I could use the same argument that i can take 2-3 decoys and work just as well. It's all relative. But lessay later in the season when someone takes 50 decoys out or takes 10 spinners, which one will affect my hunting 3 fields over.


I'm not disagreeing with you on that point at all, I fully "Agree". I'm only saying that a lot of guys "Don't" know how to hunt without the spinners and the amount of guys using the refuge will decrease because they do not know how to speak duck. And the use of spinners makes it "easy" for "Them" !
I agree with all of your points, but my gut says the hunter numbers will drop.
And IMO that's not good.

I'm just giving my opinion. I'll deal with what ever comes of this if anything. Waterfowl rules/zones are very complex and as the saying goes you cannot please everyone. Rules and zones have changed through the years and I'll survive. I only quit once.....(Point Sys.) I hated that ! And I do not ! Like spinners ! But if you remove them you will loose hunter numbers IMO because so many younger guys have grown up with them and don't know "How" to duck hunt without them....again, only my opinion guys........


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

I guess I look at it this way. If it gets more people involved with the sport because it's "easy", then with more people this sport is less likely to go away.

HOWEVER....

There are those who are way more experienced duck hunters and who will do well with or without them. Sort of the same thing with baiting and deer.

To the non-hunting public our reputation as hunters is enhanced if we police ourselves and outlaw spinners (and deer baiting). Yes, there are those who have never duck hunted without a spinner and those who never deer hunted without bait. Adapt and overcome. 

The issue is a little more complicated than just worrying about what the guy has next to you at Shia.

my .02


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Mike L said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you on that point at all, I fully "Agree". I'm only saying that a lot of guys "Don't" know how to hunt without the spinners and the amount of guys using the refuge will decrease because they do not know how to speak duck. And the use of spinners makes it "easy" for "Them" !
> I agree with all of your points, but my gut says the hunter numbers will drop.
> And IMO that's not good.
> 
> I'm just giving my opinion. I'll deal with what ever comes of this if anything. Waterfowl rules/zones are very complex and as the saying goes you cannot please everyone. Rules and zones have changed through the years and I'll survive. I only quit once.....(Point Sys.) I hated that ! And I do not ! Like spinners ! But if you remove them you will loose hunter numbers IMO because so many younger guys have grown up with them and don't know "How" to duck hunt without them....again, only my opinion guys........


Fully understand Mike, and appreciate your opinions. The concern of hunter numbers possibly dropping came up several times in our discussions with SFCHA members, and other organizations. A couple arguments we made in our proposal...1) we realize some guys may choose to quit hunting the bingos because they can't use spinners. But a survey of SFCHA members who love spinners, especially the young guys (say 35 and under) because they tend to be the ones who love the gadgets, told us that they would gladly give them up if they had to. It certainly wasn't going to make them quit hunting bingos. So we think the number who quit just because of a spinner ban will be few. 2) we've heard from many veteran hunters who said they've already quit hunting bingos BECAUSE of the proliferation of spinners. We heard a lot that it wasn't so bad when people used one. But now it's common that every party has 3, 4, 5 etc. And each party wants to use more than the parties around them. I call it the "arms race" on managed areas...the competition to "out-spinner" your neighbor. So we've had people tell us THEY MAY COME BACK if we ban them. So from what we could tell, the jury is out on that argument.

But again, good points Mike, and something we tried to address in our proposal.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

field-n-feathers said:


> in Zone 3.
> 
> Gene had mentioned that he liked the current season and wouldn't want to start any earlier, they can still get out by breaking some ice. However, I can't speak for him.....but I would assume he wouldn't want it to end much later than it does. I wouldn't blame him. There-in lies the problem. Making the South Zone later would not benefit the entire South Zone. And honestly I wouldn't even attempt to have a change that the majority of people wouldn't benefit from.


True. Any later and we are in serious jeopardy of getting truely iced out for the last week. In turn, I would not want to see it earlier since other than a bunch of redheads and a smattering of other divers, they usually don't show up in full force until Nov, last year being the exception.

Ideally, I would love after the first week of the South zone to have a week or 2 off, then start and go a week or 2 later. Not much going on the first week or 2 after the season opens, so I'd just assume drive to the U.P. or out of state. Yes we would stand a good chance of being iced out, BUT the years you are not you would have better shooting in those last 2 weeks than you would if you had them right after the opener.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

The change that occured in 2001 was to move the West side of the bay into zone 3. It used to be in zone 2 and you could hunt the West side of the bay opener and move East and hunt the zone 3 opener the following. Used to do it. I liked it but it was thought better to move the entire saginaw bay into zone 3. Why I don't remember. But it is for a 10 year period. So in 2011 or 2012 we can look into it agian to see if their are changes that need to happen. 

I'd like a zone 4 (never going to happen) From 75 or 27 West to lake Michigan M20 South to the border being Zone 4. 

Dates: Open - October 23rd run until December 12th shut down for 12 days and reopen Christmas day and run for the remainder of the 60 day season until January 3!  

How bout it, look ok to the west siders? I could live with it. 

OR better yet, can the entire fall season and hunt from February 1st straight through 60 days, into April. No more complaining about brown birds, to many pin feathers to be a mountable specimen. Every bird harvested would be mountable, all in breeding plumage. I like that even better
. :corkysm55 
T


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

Fully understand Mike, and appreciate your opinions. The concern of hunter numbers possibly dropping came up several times in our discussions with SFCHA members, and other organizations. A couple arguments we made in our proposal...1) we realize some guys may choose to quit hunting the bingos because they can't use spinners. But a survey of SFCHA members who love spinners, especially the young guys (say 35 and under) because they tend to be the ones who love the gadgets, told us that they would gladly give them up if they had to. It certainly wasn't going to make them quit hunting bingos. So we think the number who quit just because of a spinner ban will be few. 2) we've heard from many veteran hunters who said they've already quit hunting bingos BECAUSE of the proliferation of spinners. We heard a lot that it wasn't so bad when people used one. But now it's common that every party has 3, 4, 5 etc. And each party wants to use more than the parties around them. I call it the "arms race" on managed areas...the competition to "out-spinner" your neighbor. So we've had people tell us THEY MAY COME BACK if we ban them. So from what we could tell, the jury is out on that argument.


That's very interesting, hearing that the younger guys would gladly give them up ! I'll admit I've never heard of anyone quitting because of them.
And your spot on with the numbers of spinners increasing each year in
everyone's spread. But ? If that's the feedback your getting, then your proposal if implemented would be a good indicator of the useful or useless nature of the beast.....(In the managed area's) I really do hope the proposal goes through and I hope I'm mistaken. We just cannot afford to loose people numbers.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

In my personal opinion, the zones as they are are the single most hampering thing for most of us in SW MI. In my county, Calhoun, I can honestly say our migration occurs much later than anywhere else in the state. Why ? I don't know. Is it fair for the SW folks to endure year after year of having good hunting oppurtunites not being an option ? About as fair as banning spinners statewide. The last several years my absolute best hunting has occured the last weekend of the season. Why is that ? The ducks showed up in numbers. It was at least 75% better than even opening day. Do you think they all left the next weekend or the next ? Nope, all you had to do is step outside anywhere and you most likley could hear whistling wings at dusk. 

I for one am tired of hearing how good the hunting is on the east side, and how much sucuess they have. Why should I be forced to travel over there to enjoy a duck hunt ? I should have the same kind of oppurtunities as any hunter anywhere in MI. It is a reasonable request. Change the zone as F&F suggested. Heaven forbid if we mess up the east side or the bay or anything in between. All we are asking for is a 2 or 3 more weekends to hunt the birds in December. I will take my chances with freezeing out. Maybe two out of ten seasons you will be froze out. Maybe someone on the boards has heard of Global warming. 

I see the January two day duck season as useless. Sure we can go out and kill birds, why ? Becasue they are still here 8 out of 10 seasons...... see the point ? I would be in favor of changing the zones and season dates for SW MI. Why not maximize oppurtunity for ourselves ? We spend a boatload of money to hunt waterfowl. The crossbow guys finally got their wishes, so why can't the duck hunters ? It might actually stimulate the economy a little. 

No matter what happens I will still hunt waterfowl here. But it does not mean I can't voice my opinion on how crappy the season dates are.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

brings up something i would like to find facts on.


i hear we are losing hunters each year at an alarming rate. I'm not disagreeing with this. Really don't want to discourage new hunters. What i'm getting at is i see numbers every season in all aspects of hunting. deer harvests, duck harvests, etc... What i haven't seen is a decline in harvest or hunter trips. When i see the deer harvest numbers, i haven't seen the alarming rate of decline. Does someone have this decline documented in michigan thru license sales....because harvest numbers don't support it. just curious questions.

from a youth hunt perspective. our youth hunts have had the same turnout as when i was a kid. our dinner has had the same number of youths give or take a few every year. I'm seriously posing this question because i've never seen the facts. can someone provide that in factual form.


and mike, i can honestly say....i don't think we will lose 1 hunter due to not using a spinner. I do think we will gain some tho. my opinion...but i don't think the expierence of hunting the flats will change one bit, outside of no scarecrows out there in november. you can still go out there, not know how to call or even hunt and kill birds.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

TSS Caddis said:


> True. Any later and we are in serious jeopardy of getting truely iced out for the last week. In turn, I would not want to see it earlier since other than a bunch of redheads and a smattering of other divers, they usually don't show up in full force until Nov, last year being the exception.
> 
> Ideally, I would love after the first week of the South zone to have a week or 2 off, then start and go a week or 2 later. Not much going on the first week or 2 after the season opens, so I'd just assume drive to the U.P. or out of state. Yes we would stand a good chance of being iced out, BUT the years you are not you would have better shooting in those last 2 weeks than you would if you had them right after the opener.


Well Gene, if we could get everyone on board with that....I would be all for going a week, shutting down for two and then adding those two weeks on to the end of the season during December. So if it would have been this year, we would have been hunting ducks to December 20th. That, in my neck of the woods would be pretty lights out. I mean in an absolute perfect world there would be a fourth zone, but it looks as though that will never happen.

It sounds like a great compromise to me. How do we make that happen?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Bellyup said:


> ...I for one am tired of hearing how good the hunting is on the east side, and how much sucuess they have. Why should I be forced to travel over there to enjoy a duck hunt ? I should have the same kind of oppurtunities as any hunter anywhere in MI...


Mind you I'm really not arguing for or against the season change thing. But I wanted to point out that if you really believe all that talk about how good the hunting is on the east side, then I have a bridge in the Mohave desert to sell you. My personal opinion is that you likely have just as good duck hunting as most of the "east side" has. The difference is on the east side you have more huntable water (Saginaw Bay, Lake St. Clair, Detroit River, Lake Erie) AND you have the major managed areas (Shi River, Nayanquing, Fish Pt, Harsens, Pt. Mouillee) all on the east side, and this concentrates not only ducks, but duck hunters. Yes, the managed areas have ducks, but once the seasons half done, they are usually so educated and "stale" that it really doesn't make for that great of hunting. You can sit and watch them over the refuges all day long, but they just don't decoy well. I hunt both sides of the bay, as well as Shiawassee, Nayanquing Pt. and Fish Point, and some other smaller public and private marshes, and I'd hazard a guess you've had better late season hunting in your area than I have every year. I'd love to compare notes. So don't believe everything you hear or read...JMO.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> .....i hear we are losing hunters each year at an alarming rate. I'm not disagreeing with this. Really don't want to discourage new hunters. What i'm getting at is i see numbers every season in all aspects of hunting. deer harvests, duck harvests, etc... What i haven't seen is a decline in harvest or hunter trips. When i see the deer harvest numbers, i haven't seen the alarming rate of decline. Does someone have this decline documented in michigan thru license sales....because harvest numbers don't support it. just curious questions.


Do a Google search, there are a multitude of articles that explain that license sales have been declining. However, I don't know as that has any correlation with deer harvest numbers anyway. I think weather conditions, and winter kill, at least in the U.P., have a greater effect on that. I suppose the same can be said for the waterfowl harvest as well.

I think knowing the true harvest is opening another hole can of worms. The DNR's current hocus pocus approach to gathering a true harvest is ridiculous. The problem is that better ways of doing it take money...something Michigan doesn't have a ton of right now.


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## FullBody (Nov 4, 2008)

smoke said:


> I'd like a zone 4 (never going to happen) From 75 or 27 West to lake Michigan M20 South to the border being Zone 4.
> 
> Dates: Open - October 23rd run until December 12th shut down for 12 days and reopen Christmas day and run for the remainder of the 60 day season until January 3!
> 
> ...


Could you imagine!!....4 openers!! I would hit every one!  

If there is any possible way us SW fellas can see more of december then i am all for it! FnF is right about our area...one to two more weeks this past year and I could have shown you guys some serious duck porn! :SHOCKED:

Gene, always liked that idea of shuttin er down after the opener for a while so we can run out longer in zone 3.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

Finding info on the MDNR site is a "Chore "....man !

Anyway the best that I could come up Dan concerning Mi is this report from 2007.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/report3496_258714_7.pdf


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## waterfowlhunter83 (Aug 10, 2005)

Guys,

What is the rationale for a teal season here (besides the obvious)? Is it just for possible increase in hunter recruitment numbers? I personally see the teal season having a negative impact more, for various reasons that have been mentioned before in this discussion. But I just want to see what other guys think on that particular issue.


Chad


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

waterfowlhunter83 said:


> Guys,
> 
> What is the rationale for a teal season here (besides the obvious)? Is it just for possible increase in hunter recruitment numbers? I personally see the teal season having a negative impact more, for various reasons that have been mentioned before in this discussion. But I just want to see what other guys think on that particular issue.
> 
> ...


As I understand it from what I heard in the DNRE presentation to CWAC, it goes back to hunters in the northern climates wanting to get a crack at teal before they move south. BW teal move pretty early, although some stick around. GW stay longer. But the fact is teal are generally one of the first birds to move south. I think the attitude is that other states in our flyway have early teal only seasons, so we should too (the fairness argument). Just my recollection...maybe someone else can clarify.


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## waterfowlhunter83 (Aug 10, 2005)

just ducky said:


> As I understand it from what I heard in the DNRE presentation to CWAC, it goes back to hunters in the northern climates wanting to get a crack at teal before they move south. BW teal move pretty early, although some stick around. GW stay longer. But the fact is teal are generally one of the first birds to move south. I think the attitude is that other states in our flyway have early teal only seasons, so we should too (the fairness argument). Just my recollection...maybe someone else can clarify.


It was my understanding that b/c MI is a "production" state that we couldn't have a teal season.

Now, I wouldn't be opposed to a 3-5 year test on a teal season to see how numbers of mallards and wood ducks correlate to there being a teal season but IMO that a stamp of approval for a permanent teal season might be the wrong way to approach this.


Chad


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

waterfowlhunter83 said:


> It was my understanding that b/c MI is a "production" state that we couldn't have a teal season.


That has been given as the rationale for years, but Michigan did indeed have an early teal season many many years ago. The argument that we shouldn't have an early teal season because we're a production state shouldn't have any bearing on the matter. We're a mallard production state too..... I don't know of anyone who shoots unfledged ducklings. By the time an early teal season rolled around, "production" would be over for the year.

The argument that people will not properly identify teal and shoot other species is also a little shallow. We all know that for the first few weeks of the season there are a lot more brown ducks flying around. In such an instance where you could only shoot teal, you'd just have to be extra careful about knowing what you were pulling the trigger on. I'm sure the teal they shoot in Indiana and Ohio and Illinois are pretty brown, too, and those states also have mallard production to contend with. Why should we be singled out to NOT be able to hunt teal in a special early season? I'd personally love the chance to extend my season by a full two weekends!

And like JD said, the shooting from the early goose season spooks the ducks anyway! Not being a goose hunter, I'd prefer to have my own "early season" chasing the rice rockets.....:evilsmile


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## highcaliberconsecrator (Oct 16, 2009)




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## waterfowlhunter83 (Aug 10, 2005)

I think a test period is needed to see how other duck numbers are going to be affected by this. There will be misidentification...to what extent no one can say for sure. But it will happen.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

mis-ID is a bad argument. mis-ID happens in regular season, should we prolong opener til they get color then too?

my suggestion would to be youth opener as the start of the week long teal season. first 2 days are kids (can shoot anything), rest of the week teal season.

if they do a seperate opener for both youth and teal and early goose......cluster#@%!. good bye locals.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

just ducky said:


> Mind you I'm really not arguing for or against the season change thing. But I wanted to point out that if you really believe all that talk about how good the hunting is on the east side, then I have a bridge in the Mohave desert to sell you. My personal opinion is that you likely have just as good duck hunting as most of the "east side" has. The difference is on the east side you have more huntable water (Saginaw Bay, Lake St. Clair, Detroit River, Lake Erie) AND you have the major managed areas (Shi River, Nayanquing, Fish Pt, Harsens, Pt. Mouillee) all on the east side, and this concentrates not only ducks, but duck hunters. Yes, the managed areas have ducks, but once the seasons half done, they are usually so educated and "stale" that it really doesn't make for that great of hunting. You can sit and watch them over the refuges all day long, but they just don't decoy well. I hunt both sides of the bay, as well as Shiawassee, Nayanquing Pt. and Fish Point, and some other smaller public and private marshes, and I'd hazard a guess you've had better late season hunting in your area than I have every year. I'd love to compare notes. So don't believe everything you hear or read...JMO.


JD, I see the pics on here and other sites. I can also see others posting opinions on how terrible the duck numbers are in SW MI and how difficult it is to gain access. So given that a later season seems to put a lot more birds in SW MI therfore increasing the number of areas holding birds that can be accessed. It is no secret that SW MI holds one of the best deer numbers in MI and some of the largest bucks as well. I just so happens rifle season happens right around the same time the ducks begin showing up in force. Heck, even the public areas get over run by deer hunters and make it hard to duck hunt around here without fearing a slug coming your way if a deer wanders between them and you. 

At any rate, I still think a couple extra weeks or three into December would be fantastic for us here is SW MI. I even love the idea of a closeure for a couple weeks after the first or second week of the season to gain this extra time at the end. Caddis presented that and if that is what it takes I am for it. 

It is REAL hard to keep the newbies interest in duck/goose hunting when you get up at 3:30 or 4:00 am and go sit in your boat for 6 or 7 hours and you see maybe a few ducks and maybe get one or two to work close enough to chance a shot. You want to grow the numbers, increase oppurtunity. Simple math you ask me. 

Maybe another good idea is to increase the amount of public areas one can hunt around here. They used to have a decent amount of Hunter Access Program lands around here. Now I don't think there is more than one in Calhoun county if any. I know budget is not there, etc, etc. All I do know is if you want to grow the sport you have to make it affordable to lower income folks, and also have ducks to harvest. If they don't get any shots it is pretty hard to not call it worse than Deer Waiting. I always sell duck hunting to newbies as action packed, you can **** chat and move around a little more than you can deer waiting. And your scent means nothing. So they get excite dthey can shoot more than one or two shells a year try it and find out how expensive it is to equip and how hard it is to get a duck. A good day for me is two ducks taken a day on the weekends. And I scout a lot. I can find ducks, but can't get to them. That tells me we need more oppurtunities during a better time.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Bellyup said:


> ...It is REAL hard to keep the newbies interest in duck/goose hunting when you get up at 3:30 or 4:00 am and go sit in your boat for 6 or 7 hours and you see maybe a few ducks and maybe get one or two to work close enough to chance a shot. You want to grow the numbers, increase oppurtunity. Simple math you ask me.
> 
> Maybe another good idea is to increase the amount of public areas one can hunt around here. They used to have a decent amount of Hunter Access Program lands around here. Now I don't think there is more than one in Calhoun county if any. I know budget is not there, etc, etc. All I do know is if you want to grow the sport you have to make it affordable to lower income folks, and also have ducks to harvest. If they don't get any shots it is pretty hard to not call it worse than Deer Waiting. I always sell duck hunting to newbies as action packed, you can **** chat and move around a little more than you can deer waiting. And your scent means nothing. So they get excite dthey can shoot more than one or two shells a year try it and find out how expensive it is to equip and how hard it is to get a duck. A good day for me is two ducks taken a day on the weekends. And I scout a lot. I can find ducks, but can't get to them. That tells me we need more oppurtunities during a better time.


I understand what you're saying...believe me I do. But my point is I had many days the past two years...I mean many...where I was on the bay or even at SRSGA, and I only saw a handful of birds. This past fall I had more skunks than I've ever had, and lots of no shot days. :yikes: So while I understand, and agree with you about your predicament in your part of the state, I'm saying it's not just you. As I said before, the big difference in the Bay area or SE part of the state is there are public places to hunt...no question. I love to be on the Bay just to be on the Bay :evilsmile It's such a wide-open area, and I usually daydream about how it must've been hunting the bay 100 years ago. But this past fall I spent most of those days thinking "man, all this water and cover...there must be ducks around". So yes, lots of places to hunt. But not all that many 'good' places


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## Swamp Boss (Mar 14, 2003)

All in for early teal! 

I hear the argument that it is going to pressure other birds and have them shell shocked by the regular opening. I see no difference between what currently happens on the opener w/all the once a year yahoos, light nuts etc that make the opener a circus ...oh and by the way, Spook the birds in the process.

I wouldn't even mind if the DNR had came up with a special required stamp to hunt the early season so the resource is self funding.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Swamp Boss said:


> ....I wouldn't even mind if the DNR had came up with a special required stamp to hunt the early season so the resource is self funding.


OOOOH Matt, now there's an interesting idea. But be careful what you wish for, because at the CWAC meeting the DNRE made it very clear that they will have to pursue every opportunity to find funding sources. I still wish they would raise the managed area fees someday


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

just ducky said:


> OOOOH Matt, now there's an interesting idea. But be careful what you wish for, because at the CWAC meeting the DNRE made it very clear that they will have to pursue every opportunity to find funding sources. I still *wish* they would raise the managed area fees someday


I *wish* they would fund the Natural Resources off general funds and sales taxes instead of the hunters. Novel concept, considering most other successful states do this.

raising fee's, we all know that ain't gonna save us at this point. your beating an already dead horse there.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> ...raising fee's, we all know that ain't gonna save us at this point. your beating an already dead horse there.


yeah I know it's a drop in the bucket compared to sound funding. But it still should be done...**sigh***


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

just ducky said:


> yeah I know it's a drop in the bucket compared to sound funding. But it still should be done...**sigh***


its just one of those things I can't see helping the situation in the state we are in. Do you raise fees (higher taxes) and risk having less people committing to it. Or you do not change or lower fees (lower taxes) and gain more contributers to encourage growth. kinda a reaganomics thing.

in michigan, at this point....raising price on anything is a recipe for suicide (for a politician or program)


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## Swamp Boss (Mar 14, 2003)

I am not talking about an across the board hike, just an ad hoc fee on an early season hunt. The individual could decide if they would want to spend the money or not. Does it get us all the way there ? NO, but is it better than nothing?


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

Swamp Boss said:


> I am not talking about an across the board hike, just an ad hoc fee on an early season hunt. The individual could decide if they would want to spend the money or not. Does it get us all the way there ? NO, but is it better than nothing?


Or, do you keep the cost the same in hopes that it insipres people who have no intention of hunting ducks in the regular season to buy a lic. and try it out?? Look at the popularity of the early goose season for an example - we have people hunting waterfowl 9/1-9/15 that never hunt them otherwise, because it's the only game in town. By the time regular season rolls around, many of those guys are focused on Upland birds or Bow season...For a new person it isn't just the $5 increase it is for you and me. It's $5 on top of the $35 they have to pony up to be legal to hunt waterfowl.


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## waterfowlhunter83 (Aug 10, 2005)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> mis-ID is a bad argument. mis-ID happens in regular season, should we prolong opener til they get color then too?


Maybe...IDK. But you are only focusing on 2 species where a mis-id is compounded by the limited number of huntable species, instead of during the regular season where a mis-id might not have an impact or at least as big of one. That is just my feeling on the matter and I will just leave it at that.


Chad


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

waterfowlhunter83 said:


> Maybe...IDK. But you are only focusing on 2 species where a mis-id is compounded by the limited number of huntable species, instead of during the regular season where a mis-id might not have an impact or at least as big of one. That is just my feeling on the matter and I will just leave it at that.
> 
> 
> Chad


if thats the case then they should not open duck hunting in the UP or canada in september as thats a lot of mis-ID goin on.

you can't use that as an argument against the season. Part of duck hunting is ID'n the bird on wing with or without plumage. If you can't ID you don't shoot. 

If we were to regulate all our seasons and rules upon what might happen and the odds of them happening, our seasons would be very small if a season at all.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> If you can't ID you don't shoot.


Mighty arrogant of you to expect people to id birds before they shoot:evil:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> Mighty arrogant of you to expect people to id birds before they shoot:evil:


Yeah, I didn't see that regulation in the rule book anywhere? Have I been missing something since 1979?

Okay, just joshing of course. It is one of the hardest parts of learning to duck hunt. Then again, if you're like Caddis and you sit your *** out on Saginaw Bay and shoot at black and whites all day, then you don't care...oh wait...one or sometimes no Cans allowed, a couple reds or BB's....Yeah I guess ID is also important to diver hunters. Unless you shoot lawn darts like Caddis, Dahmer and crew :evilsmile


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

just ducky said:


> Mike L. -
> We've hunted together, and you know I respect your opinion. I agree that way too many people can't ID birds even in the best of conditions. So the early season is especially hard on ID. But I'll disagree with you that an early season would move more birds out than they are now for one main reason...ever since we started the early fall goose season, this is a mute point. The early goose season chases them all out now, so IMO an early teal season would not make this any worse. Shooting is shooting to the ducks, whether it's aimed at them or just geese. Years ago before we had a fall goose season, one of my favorite local marshes, which is public by the way, used to have a gozillion woodies and lots of mallards staging in the fall. Each year we would take a canoe in there the week before duck season just to see the numbers, and to take pictures of them. It was truly phenomenal to see, and really pumped us up for the duck opener. Then came the early goose season, and tons of guys in there shooting at geese. Ever since then, a vast majority of the ducks have been pushed out of there long before duck opener. Years ago I vented regularly about this (partially because I don't hunt geese). I even asked the DNR to close this area to goose hunting. But I gave that whole thing up years ago, and have not hunted there on duck opener in many years.


I think the youth season has had more of an impact than early goose. I still believe we should have a youth season, but its impact on local birds can not be denied. I'd bet that's why most of those woodies are leaving, some kids go burn up 2 boxes of shells each and the woodies split. Like I said, I'm all for youth having their hunt, I don't care to shoot brown ducks much anyway- but it has a big impact- more so than early goose where most guys are hunting wheat stubble fields.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

smoke said:


> The change that occured in 2001 was to move the West side of the bay into zone 3. It used to be in zone 2 and you could hunt the West side of the bay opener and move East and hunt the zone 3 opener the following. Used to do it. I liked it but it was thought better to move the entire saginaw bay into zone 3. Why I don't remember. But it is for a 10 year period. So in 2011 or 2012 we can look into it agian to see if their are changes that need to happen.
> 
> I'd like a zone 4 (never going to happen) From 75 or 27 West to lake Michigan M20 South to the border being Zone 4.
> 
> ...


Hey smoke, I know you can't read this since I'm on your blacklist, but I actually agree with you about something. I argue it all the time, from lansing west we don't see birds until november. The best month of the year for us to hunt would be the entire month of december. I would be all for 4 zones, that would be awesome, and it would open up a lot more opportunities for guys traveling around the state.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> . If you can't ID you don't shoot.


Unless you can shoot 8 hens a day. The number one draw to Canada for the majority of hunters early in the season is the #'s you can shoot.

Down south they get their one mistake duck during teal season. You should see all the woodducks left floating. In general, dont think MI would be much different.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

wavie said:


> Down south they get their one mistake duck during teal season. You should see all the woodducks left floating. In general, dont think MI would be much different.


and you should see all the hens i see floating every year during regular season.

hey i could care less about early teal season. I shoot a few every year during regular season and the youth usually tear up the bluewings on their early hunt with me. I don't have a horse in this race really but using the ID thing is a weak argument and justifiably shouldn't be used against the fellas wanting an early season.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

Ieatantlers said:


> I think the youth season has had more of an impact than early goose. I still believe we should have a youth season, but its impact on local birds can not be denied. I'd bet that's why most of those woodies are leaving, some kids go burn up 2 boxes of shells each and the woodies split. Like I said, I'm all for youth having their hunt, I don't care to shoot brown ducks much anyway- but it has a big impact- more so than early goose where most guys are hunting wheat stubble fields.


I'd take that bet! Yes they shoot early birds, but how many youths are really out there banging away. Maybe hunting in some of the more popular water areas birds start to avoid it after two days of shooting. They dont migrate b/c of two days of hunting, they just find quiter areas d/t pressure.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> and you should see all the hens i see floating every year during regular season.
> 
> hey i could care less about early teal season.


couldnt agree more.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

just ducky said:


> Yeah, I didn't see that regulation in the rule book anywhere? Have I been missing something since 1979?
> 
> Okay, just joshing of course. It is one of the hardest parts of learning to duck hunt. Then again, if you're like Caddis and you sit your *** out on Saginaw Bay and shoot at black and whites all day, then you don't care...oh wait...one or sometimes no Cans allowed, a couple reds or BB's....Yeah I guess ID is also important to diver hunters. Unless you shoot lawn darts like Caddis, Dahmer and crew :evilsmile


Look for the pointy bill or black and white. Everything with a pointy bill or black and white dies. Everything else is probably on it's way to the park for Grandma to feed, so it get's a pass. Grandma looks forward to feeding the ducks everyday, would not want to deny her that.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

wavie said:


> I'd take that bet! Yes they shoot early birds, but how many youths are really out there banging away. Maybe hunting in some of the more popular water areas birds start to avoid it after two days of shooting. They dont migrate b/c of two days of hunting, they just find quiter areas d/t pressure.


I've taken youth out for the past few seasons, and when I return to those areas scouting the birds are gone. I don't believe all of them migrate either, but they relocate like you said, making preseason scouting about worthless until after that season. J.D. was referring to a wood duck haunt of flooded timber I thought- I doubt many guys goose hunt an area like that. Just the nature of early goose (wheat stubble generally) compared to youth hunts (banging up roosts- its a sure fire bet for kids- and something I do for the kids too) makes me believe ducks are effected much more by the youth hunt. The kids I take out generally are shooting up to 50 times- they can't hit crap with their limited experience, and ducks aren't easy targets. A lot of birds get educated. It's fun to watch for sure, and something I wouldn't take away, but it has an impact.

A prime example of this that JD is familiar with is the Maple River Game Area. I used to hunt it early goose, and there would be ducks all over the place. Then when youth season hit, they were gone within a day or two. I'd say at least 80% of birds relocate after the youth hunt at the maple floodings. 

So I don't get bashed, for the tenth time, the reward for the kids far outweighs the negative impact on our season IMO.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> Look for the pointy bill or black and white. Everything with a pointy bill or black and white dies. Everything else is probably on it's way to the park for Grandma to feed, so it get's a pass. Grandma looks forward to feeding the ducks everyday, would not want to deny her that.


:lol: Great response...I needed some humor today!


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## BFG (Mar 4, 2005)

An early teal season is grossly over-rated.....


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

BFG said:


> An early teal season is grossly over-rated.....


Totally agree, but......


(here i go champion another cause to benefit from it in other ways).

if we can get early teal season, it will take some pressure off having to open so damn early.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

BFG said:


> An early teal season is grossly over-rated.....


Speak for yourself. I for one look forward to shooting ulgy, brown, bite sized birds while swatting swarms of mosquitos and making nut-sweat soup inside my waders.

If I'm gonna shoot teal in 75* weather - it's going to be in January, in Mexico.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

KLR said:


> Speak for yourself. I for one look forward to shooting ulgy, brown, bite sized birds while swatting swarms of mosquitos and making nut-sweat soup inside my waders.
> 
> If I'm gonna shoot teal in 75* weather - it's going to be in January, in Mexico.


 Heck, I don't even like hunting REAL ducks that early in the season because of the heat, the bugs, yada, yada. Not saying I'm against the idea of an early teal season, but I won't be participating.


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

The way I look at it is this. Anytime we can add a season and not take one away is ok in my book. Not saying that I would participate or that it wouldn't screw things up a little, but with the way things are going it is much better to add than take away.


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