# Improving Michigan buck size



## runge_24 (Sep 10, 2008)

sgtguardsman said:


> I think a lot of you guys are missing the point. It's not about "Trophy" deer, but a more spread out age class. This is the same reason you should harvest does over an age class. The older does are more successful breeders and have less fawn mortality. A 1 1/2 yrs old has not had more than one season to fawn and so on. On the other hand if you are culing does to balance your herd you want to take some of your 3 1/2 yrs+ does. I all depends on what your harvest plan is. In the case of young people, I have youth hunt on my place and they know they can take any legal deer their 1st year hunting, are encouraged to pass 1 1/2's and 2 1/2's after that. I would be the same with an older hunter or Military Vet. I have been in 21 yrs. The APR is about an older buck class, not just trophy deer.


Thank you for restating that in a better way. I was not asking the question in an effort to get bigger racks. In the fifteen years that we have lived here, and the time that I have spent growing up and hunting with my dad, we have seen only a handful of eight points. If I wanted to find bigger racked deer I would move to Iowa with a friend who has been bugging me to come out. That is not my concern. I was just looking for a healthier deer herd with a wider array of age class. In my opinion, if your hunting for meat, why are you passing on does to shoot the spike standing behind them? Can't eat them. But because of the majority of state land hunters having the "brown its down" theory, there are no chances for those young bucks to grow into older, healthy 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old deer. Seems rare to even see them on private land sometimes....


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Were all the 10,000's to 100,000's of northern deer hunters who lined up year after year, and still do, for all the antlerless tags that helped lower northern herd numbers best described as "trophy hunters" or "meat hunters"?

On could easily argue that it was meat hunters who really "did a number" on NLP herds. From what I heard, MDNR snipers didn't do much shooting in the NLP.


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> Were all the 10,000's to 100,000's of northern deer hunters who lined up year after year, and still do, for all the antlerless tags that helped lower northern herd numbers best described as "trophy hunters" or "meat hunters"?
> 
> On could easily argue that it was meat hunters who really "did a number" on NLP herds. From what I heard, MDNR snipers didn't do much shooting in the NLP.


Sure it was meat hunters. They did the job that was asked of them.


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

runge_24 said:


> In my opinion, if your hunting for meat, why are you passing on does to shoot the spike standing behind them?


You do realize that there are no antlerless permits in much of the NLP don't you?


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Justin said:


> Sure it was meat hunters. They did the job that was asked of them.


Um, no. They bought the product they wanted to buy. That being ample antlerless tags. Nobody forced anybody to actually fill those tags. 

Or are you claiming that liberal tags, be it liberal buck tags or antlerless tags then "asked" hunters to kill the deer.

If so, you just made no better case for more restrictive buck tags. Thank you Justin, thank you!


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Justin said:


> You do realize that there are no antlerless permits in much of the NLP don't you?


You do realize that *ALL* deer hunters in the NLP can kill 2 antlerless deer in archery season with a combo tag, don't you?


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## Huntmich (Sep 4, 2008)

IMO the biggest problem for trophy bucks in the north is the lack of nutritional food. Where I hunt, Crawford & Otsego counties, There really isn't that much nutritional value in the vegetation available to eat. There is no crops. There's barely any acorns around with all the logging. Antlers and bodies are not going to grow eating grass and pine cones. My dad shot a 4 point this year that was 3 1/2 years old. He sure wasn't going to get much bigger. I let 5 different spikes walk this year and 3 of them were 2 1/2 years old. They typical mature deer we see are at the very best 120-130, and they are few and far between. I think that has more to do with it then the doe population, but I'm sure it didn't help when they handed those permits out like hot cakes. 

As for the southern part of the state, I don't know. I don't hunt down there very often if at all. A point system may work for those southern counties, but I think it all comes down to the hunter. There is great potential in southern Michigan to produce monster after monster, but you have to let the young ones grow. Earn a buck may work in the south, with antler restricitons.

I've been to Iowa twice in the last 4 years. We got hooked up with a taxidermist who leases a bunch of land and all he asks us is don't shoot the 2 1/2 year olds. Were free to shoot whatever we want, and if we shoot one we shoot one. He just prefers that we don't because thats when they have the most potential. And now he's getting worried at the lack of size to the deer his customers are bringing him. He believes they are handing out to many doe permits to instate hunters.


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> Um, no. They bought the product they wanted to buy. That being ample antlerless tags. Nobody forced anybody to actually fill those tags.
> 
> Or are you claiming that liberal tags, be it liberal buck tags or antlerless tags then "asked" hunters to kill the deer.
> 
> If so, you just made no better case for more restrictive buck tags. Thank you Justin, thank you!


Spin some more Bob.:lol:


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## runge_24 (Sep 10, 2008)

Yes I realize that there are fewer doe only tags given out in the NLP than the SLP. If a guy is truly hunting for meat to feed his family and all he can shoot is a buck because that's the only deer he sees that season then I am not blaming him. I would do the same. I went with four unfilled tags lasy year in the SLP. Not due to a lack of trying. From November 15th to Dec 15th, combined between my dad and I we saw a total of seven deer. Six in the last two days. Can't shoot what's out of range though. Would I have shot a spike if he walked in for me? damn right. would I had he come in with a handful of does? no. 

Like I said I'm not blaming the guy who shoots a buck because that's all he sees/has a shot opportunity at. It's the guy that shoots the spike standing behind the does, and claims to only be at it for the meat. Then why didn't you take the mature doe from that group who has more meat than the 1 1/2 old spike? I would love to hear how a meat only hunter validates that.


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> You do realize that *ALL* deer hunters in the NLP can kill 2 antlerless deer in archery season with a combo tag, don't you?


Do you honestly believe they do? Many years I've been skunked going into rifle season, as have many others. Does that mean we have to go without venison so that others can shoot a bigger buck?


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

runge_24 said:


> Yes I realize that there are fewer doe only tags given out in the NLP than the SLP. If a guy is truly hunting for meat to feed his family and all he can shoot is a buck because that's the only deer he sees that season then I am not blaming him. I would do the same. I went with four unfilled tags lasy year in the SLP. Not due to a lack of trying. From November 15th to Dec 15th, combined between my dad and I we saw a total of seven deer. Six in the last two days. Can't shoot what's out of range though. Would I have shot a spike if he walked in for me? damn right. would I had he come in with a handful of does? no.
> 
> Like I said I'm not blaming the guy who shoots a buck because that's all he sees/has a shot opportunity at. It's the guy that shoots the spike standing behind the does, and claims to only be at it for the meat. Then why didn't you take the mature doe from that group who has more meat than the 1 1/2 old spike? I would love to hear how a meat only hunter validates that.


That 1 1/2 yr. old buck will be as big or bigger than any doe, at least in the NLP. Nobody has to validate anything. It's legal and if it makes the hunter happy, that's all that counts.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Justin said:


> Do you honestly believe they do? Many years I've been skunked going into rifle season, as have many others. Does that mean we have to go without venison so that others can shoot a bigger buck?


Yes, all NLP deer hunters can kill up to 2 antlerless deer in archery season, if they so choose.
You live in Newaygo county and hunt Newaygo county. Are you saying that in a county with roughly 40,000 deer (just one county), that you can't find a single fawn to kill with your bow, since you claim you "have to go without venison", as if venison was some type of right? You can't find a single fawn in bow range in over 70 days of archery season? Not one?


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## runge_24 (Sep 10, 2008)

If that's the case then no one who shoots that deer needs to complain that they don't have any bigger deer around. 

Yes I understand that hunting the NLP is different than hunting down here. Done it. Have friends who do it. I get that the nutritional values are very different and the potential is greater in the southern counties. 

I'm not trying to lump you in with those guys, and if you took it that way it was not intentional. I'm just saying, I'm tired of guys who want to complain about a problem, but do nothing but adhere to what they are complaining about. Do something different and fill that doe tag in your pocket instead of the buck tag when given a chance to pass those small deer.


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> Yes, all NLP deer hunters can kill up to 2 antlerless deer in archery season, if they so choose.
> You live in Newaygo county and hunt Newaygo county. Are you saying that in a county with roughly 40,000 deer (just one county), that you can't find a single fawn to kill with your bow, since you claim you "have to go without venison", as if venison was some type of right? You can't find a single fawn in bow range in over 70 days of archery season? Not one?


I've hunted many years in many counties, some better than others. I wasn't always a good shot and it took many years learning how to get close. I have no problem now and usually take at least one doe. If I have a tag and a legal buck is standing in range it is a right, so to speak. Last year an injury prevented me from bow hunting. I lost my job and had an empty freezer. I shot a yearling on opening morning and was happy about it. I could hardly walk. Pretty much ended my season. Every season is different and under different circumstances I might have let him walk, done it before. I'm glad the current laws gave me the opportunity to put meat in the freezer.


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

runge_24 said:


> If that's the case then no one who shoots that deer needs to complain that they don't have any bigger deer around.
> 
> Yes I understand that hunting the NLP is different than hunting down here. Done it. Have friends who do it. I get that the nutritional values are very different and the potential is greater in the southern counties.
> 
> I'm not trying to lump you in with those guys, and if you took it that way it was not intentional. I'm just saying, I'm tired of guys who want to complain about a problem, but do nothing but adhere to what they are complaining about. Do something different and fill that doe tag in your pocket instead of the buck tag when given a chance to pass those small deer.


Hey no problem. I don't complain. I'm quite satisfied with my hunting. If I get in the mood for big bucks I hunt the UP. They are there.


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## runge_24 (Sep 10, 2008)

Justin said:


> I've hunted many years in many counties, some better than others. I wasn't always a good shot and it took many years learning how to get close. I have no problem now and usually take at least one doe. If I have a tag and a legal buck is standing in range it is a right, so to speak. Last year an injury prevented me from bow hunting. I lost my job and had an empty freezer. I shot a yearling on opening morning and was happy about it. I could hardly walk. Pretty much ended my season. Every season is different and under different circumstances I might have let him walk, done it before. I'm glad the current laws gave me the opportunity to put meat in the freezer.


That is a case of truly needing the meat. Like I said earlier I understand that. I would do the same thing. I'm sorry if I did not get across what I was neaning to say in the right way. I can in a way sympathize with the fact of shooting the first deer that walks in front of you. Two years ago I was diagnosed with a rare eye condition . In a matter of a few months I lost my central vision, and am now consider legally blind. November 1st I was sitting in a treestand bow hunting, by the end of April I couldn't drive. In two full deer seasons and a turkey season I have only gotten an opportunity to shoot twice. Missed a doe and a four point. I now have to use a crossbow for the ability to use a magnifying scope. I use 7x to 9x for a forty yard shot, and that is still tough, where two years ago I would have had no issue seeing. Can't hunt alone very often unless in the right conditions because it can be hard to pick up the animals at times. Would I shoot a spike if he walked in front of me? As fast I could pull the trigger I would. Not necessarily because he's there but because of a self accomplishment fact. 

I didn't bring this topic up to start arguments between people. I brought it up to get honest opinions. I'm sure every one would like to see a bigger deer. Last year I would have been happy to just see a deer (and not because I couldn't see them they just weren't there lol) If Michigan stays the way it is I won't cry over it. I won't cry over it if they change it though either. If given the chance I will let one walk to mature another year. But if that's all I see and we need a deer, then I'll take it. 

Sorry again for any arguments that I started over all of this. I was just looking for some honest opinions from people in various parts of the state. I really do appreciate all of the input.


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## Justin (Feb 21, 2005)

Like I said...no problem and no need to apologize, you didn't start any argument.


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## youp50 (Jan 14, 2011)

APRs are bad for the herd. I have witnessed what they do to the deer in the western UP. Save a spike, he might be a nice eight in 4 years. APR removes the yearling 6 and 8 point bucks from the gene pool. 

I am not a biologist. I do think a buck that has 8 points as a yearling will be bigger than the spike as time passes. I have not killed deer on a high fence operation. I never see an image of a spike on any high fence literature. 

Deer breeders don't want spikes. The misguided attempts to sate the whims of current "Outdoor Channel" buffs has APR protecting them.

One thing will have bigger bucks running around in Michigan. Less tags. Meaning everyone does not get to hunt every year. In the interest of improving deer hunting in Michigan....Make this the Year; Make A Difference. STAY HOME and watch the Outdoor Channel.


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## Rasputin (Jan 13, 2009)

youp50 said:


> I am not a biologist.
> 
> In the interest of improving deer hunting in Michigan....Make this the Year; Make A Difference. STAY HOME and watch the Outdoor Channel.


 
How about YOU stay home and I'll go hunting. There are plenty of big bucks out there, just because it isn't easy to find them doesn't mean you have to change all the regulations. 

I don't think there is biological support for the idea of fewer hunters.


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## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

swampbuck said:


> Instead of using all of the politcally correct bulls### terms....Why dont you just call it what it is "Big Antlers". None of us were born yesterday.


Amen! Bigger size, better sex ratio, greater age distribution, "quality", etc. all mean the same thing. This is really getting OLD!!!


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

It's amazing that those who try to deflect and point fingers at others as being obsessed with "big antlers" are really the ones obsessed with "big antlers" and it's all they ever seem to think about. :sad:


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

youp50 said:


> I am not a biologist....


You could have fooled me!


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

brushbuster said:


> This thread makes me wonder a bit. Is it trophy hunting that is ruining the sport of hunting in this state or is the trophy hunting aspect taking steps to making this state better?
> I hear people bitching about the deer population in the north, so was it the trophy hunters that brought on this demise of our population or tdm? I just listen to the same old posters either putting blame on QDM or the DNR or the trophy hunters or bla bla bla.So why do we have low density herd in the north. Was it the trophy hunters, QDM :lol::lol:. Or was it a management practice used to produce high numbers of deer until the bottom dropped out, resulting in spread of tb, over browsing, high deer/ car collisions and so on. It must have been the mean old trophy hunters that did that to our state. Couldnt have been "lets manage the deer to exploxsive numbers so we can kill more deer mentality, and now that the deer are gone we still have that we need to kill more deer mentality. I can see how restricting buck antler size or limiting the amount of bucks taken in a year down to 1 buck could "Ruin Hunting". Makes perfect sense.


TDM, QDM, DNR, bTB......Probably everyone owns a small part of the current NLP situation. But as far as the primary cause the Winter 08/09 and the explosion of the coyote population at the same time put us in this position.

We could look at all of the other factors....Sure bTB control affects the whole NLP. That problem developed in club country, Why was there an overharvest of does/permits in the NLP for the last 15 years.........You can find that answer over by Hillman.

Nature was the final straw, I pass on does now but many dont. As far as the MDNR, I believe that their response to the current situation leaves a lot to be desired.........But realistically I think the deer herd of 07/08 is about the best we will ever see going forward, Probably about 20 DPSM or so. And I am fine with that.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

swampbuck said:


> ....But realistically I think the deer herd of 07/08 is about the best we will ever see going forward, Probably about 20 DPSM or so. And I am fine with that.


Is that what the jack pine landscape can support?


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

kstout said:


> With the number of hunters in Michigan, the only way to change the buck population to include more older age bucks is with APR, or antler spread restricitions. OBR will have no affect on the number of bucks taken, it will just spread the kill around to more hunters.


Bingo we have a winner.

Pennsylvania is a perfect example of how OBR and APRs worked in a heavy hunting pressure state like Michigan. PA had OBR for decades and their buck kill was still heavily skewed towards yearling bucks. Then PA implemented APR and things changed dramatically for the better. Now their deer kill is composed of a much lower percentage of yearling bucks and their hunters are very satisfied with APR regulations. Years ago, Michigan also had a OBR too yet the deer kill was still heavily skewed towards yearling bucks.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

QDMAMAN said:


> Is that what the jack pine landscape can support?


Hardly....The jack pines support nothing but tweety birds.

I think that the 20 dpsm range is about right for NLP areas with little Agriculture, varying habitat and severe winter potential. While I dont support the older antler structure movement, I do support a realistic deer herd within biological/environmental restraints. And I do hunt accordingly.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

swampbuck said:


> But realistically I think the deer herd of 07/08 is about the best we will ever see going forward, Probably about 20 DPSM or so. And I am fine with that.


Where did you get the 20 DPSM number from? Are you talking about Roscommon county? Which side of the swamp are you powering in from?

In 2005 there was 32-37 DSPM and the 2010 goal was for 28-32 DPSM. Is there any data showing 20 DPSM? 

Or are you talking about Missaukee? But even then, there were about 28 DPSM in 2005 and the 2010 goal was 30-35 DPSM.

Is there new data per county? Thanks in advance, since I haven't seen the new data yet.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I know what the MDNR guesstimates are/were. And I dont believe you will find a single person in this area who believes they are accurate in relation to the public land areas, Including the local MDNR biologist. 

I live/hunt on The west side of Higgins Lake. That would be the four corners area of Roscommon, Crawford, Missaukee, and Kalkaska countys


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Which biologist? Mark Boersen or Glen Matthews?

Or is 20 DPSM just a number pulled out of a swamp butt? :lol:


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## Sprytle (Jan 8, 2005)

perchpile88 said:


> I should add that I think a one buck rule would be great, and does by county or area.


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

crittergitter71 said:


> How about putting in your paper how deer hunting in Michigan is becoming a trophy sport. There are getting to be way to many people, that all they care about are antlers. There used to be a time when people killed deer to eat and antlers were a little bonus.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


This is exactly right. Michigan has a whitetail hunting heritage which goes back generations. Those who want to hunt for trophys only is fine with me. Too many watch trophy hunting on TV and want Michigan like Texas, Iowa or Kansas. Apples and Oranges. I would rather eat a 2.5 year old than a 5-6 year old any time.


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## Boatown (Nov 27, 2004)

Older Buck means Bigger Rack & Bigger Body which Equals more meat on the table, If you watched any of the big buck nights in Michigan on Tv over the last few years the racks are Bigger each year. IMO let them go so they can grow it will only take a few years and then you can be in your favorite stand knowing that there is a good selection of bucks and you will see more bucks durning the season Remember 75-80% of all bucks killed theses days are yearling to 1 1/2 years old and thats proven by the DNR


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

runge_24 said:


> .... I'm just saying, I'm tired of guys who want to complain about a problem, but do nothing but adhere to what they are complaining about. * Do something different and fill that doe tag in your pocket instead of the buck tag when given a chance to pass those small deer*.


I think this post hits the nail on the head for my situation when hunting the NeLP. If my main goal every year was large racks, I definitely would NOT be hunting this area. The average 4.5 year old *woodland *buck up there may dress out close to 200 pounds, but will struggle to grow a 100 inch rack. My goal each and every year is to put venison in the freezer AND base my shot selection on what is best for the area I am hunting. If doe are plentiful I surely will pass those young bucks and take a doe or two for the freezer. At times when the population is obviously low, I'd opt to take a young buck for the freezer (usually the last few days of bow season), and pass on the doe. The reason I am not in favor of more regulations on bucks is that I want to maintain the ability to make decisions on what is I believe is best for the population that I hunt. I am a firm believer that regulating DOE harvest is the answer to managing populations. To me, bucks are just the proverbial frosting on the cake. I am satisfied with the numbers of mature bucks I have encountered while hunting. 
<----<<<


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Excellent post, Joe Archer.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Pinefarm.....Maybe you should step out of your little deer farm some day and have a look at the situation on NLP stateland yourself.....Instead of pretending you can see whats going on from the Little D.


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## musicman34 (Oct 7, 2011)

If I were to attempt to make an intelligent response to this thread it would be Joe Archer's post verbatim. Thanks, Joe!


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

Nice post Joe and pretty much sums up my feelings also.

It is apparent from this thread that there is NO WAY the hunting population will all be happy at the same time. 

Skinner


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Didn't vote. What doe tag? Ain't had them in 3 years now yet thats all you see. As long as you got people like the "Frog Farm" guys shooting everything that moves you aren't going to have any good bucks. Go look in the overhang of their back porch. Nothing but scrappy spikes,3's, 4's and a few 6 pointers. :rant:


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## runge_24 (Sep 10, 2008)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Didn't vote. What doe tag? Ain't had them in 3 years now yet thats all you see.


If you bow hunt, and with the legalized use by anyone to use crossbows more people do, you can choose to shoot two does with the OTC combo tag. Hunters have to choose the doe over the buck with it though...


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## Radar420 (Oct 7, 2004)

runge_24 said:


> If you bow hunt, and with the legalized use by anyone to use crossbows more people do, you can choose to shoot two does with the OTC combo tag.


Archery season runs concurrently with several other seasons including bear, waterfowl, and small game. I know a few people who don't want to give up those hunting seasons for an opportunity at an antlerless deer.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

> *Quote by runge_24*
> If you bow hunt, and with the legalized use by anyone to use crossbows more people do, you can choose to shoot two does with the OTC combo tag. Hunters have to choose the doe over the buck with it though...


Most of the UP does not have antlerless tags issued because of low deer population levels. Maybe it is time to remove the opportunity to use either portion of your combo tag on does in DMUs that are well below DNR population goals.


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## djones9916 (Mar 21, 2012)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> Didn't vote. What doe tag? Ain't had them in 3 years now yet thats all you see. As long as you got people like the "Frog Farm" guys shooting everything that moves you aren't going to have any good bucks. Go look in the overhang of their back porch. Nothing but scrappy spikes,3's, 4's and a few 6 pointers. :rant:


I didn't hunt in Michigan last year because I can't get doe tags up there. I haven't seen a single buck in NWLP but I see plenty of doe, and there are no doe public land tags to be had.

In Illinois they seem to do limited bucks and unlimited does. We all know the reputation they have for big racks down here, and my neighbor certainly proved it with the monster 10 he shot.


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## e. fairbanks (Dec 6, 2007)

There is a method that has been in use for centuries to improve the size, quality and production of our livestock (they were originally wild animals) It is called Animal Husbandry. It is how we improve the breed by improving genetics and nutrition . The deer farmers in your area can show you how to grow big bucks


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