# Pistol buying help.



## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

MEL said:


> Well darn, I guess your good to go. I always rely on the guys behind the gun counter for my legal advise.
> 
> (in post #18 above, Tallbear has a link to click for a ATF explaination. From what that says a parent or guardian could make the purchase then give it to you. But as it showed a friend or neighbor could not.You can buy a handgun from a private owner provided its NOT a straw purchase. For example, your neighbor has a pistol he bought a year ago but dosent like it or dosent need it. You can legally purchase that from him. Its NOT a straw purchase.)



Well it is kinda them guys job to know the gun laws.

And nobody is giving me a gun, they buy it for themselves then when they dont want it, I buy it from them and turn the filled out pistol purchase permit into the County Jail.

And how would one prove that something is or is not a straw purchase? Why would it matter if the gun was purchased 2 weeks ago or 2 years ago? At the end of the day I still end up pistol, as I am legally able to own being over 18 years of age.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

lovetohunt93 said:


> Well it is kinda them guys job to know the gun laws.


 
Thats just it, it is NOT "them guys job to know the gun laws" and more often than not they don't.


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## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

WoW. said:


> Thats just it, it is NOT "them guys job to know the gun laws" and more often than not they don't.



Well they have sold more pistols then you or I ever will. 

I just got off the phone with the MI State Police, the officer said that it was perfectly legal as the way tallbear and petronius stated earlier in this thread.

I can buy a pistol but it has to be from a private seller. Regardless of who bought the pistol, or when it was bought. I just cant buy a new one from an FFL.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

lovetohunt93 said:


> Well they have sold more pistols then you or I ever will.


 
You still appear to be missing the point.

Salesmanship has little to with knowing the law.

The other poster merely questioned the wisdom of what often can become detrimental reliance from people that are not qualified to provide legal advice.


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## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

WoW. said:


> You still appear to be missing the point.
> 
> Salesmanship has little to with knowing the law.
> 
> The other poster merely questioned the wisdom of what often can become detrimental reliance from people that are not qualified to provide legal advice.


Actually salesmanship has a lot to do with knowing the law, reason being is to prevent straw sales and what not.

You stick a person in there that doesnt know a thing about gun and hunting laws and bad stuff will happen.

If they sell to the wrong person they could lose there FFL. Said so right in that video


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

WoW. said:


> You still appear to be missing the point.
> 
> Salesmanship has little to with knowing the law.
> 
> The other poster merely questioned the wisdom of what often can become detrimental reliance from people that are not qualified to provide legal advice.



I dont think the young man will quite grasp what is being hinted at here. 
Some people dont get it until its to late.
Besides if anything ever happens he can always just say "The guy at the gunshop said it was alright".


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## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

MEL said:


> I dont think the young man will quite grasp what is being hinted at here.
> Some people dont get it until its to late.
> Besides if anything ever happens he can always just say "The guy at the gunshop said it was alright".



Well as with any online forum I was only getting opinions rather then facts. Some of you made it clear I could not by a pistol from a private seller (brother, dad, sister, some random guy at a gun show) and others said it was perfectly legal. Makes you wonder who here really does know the proper law, some of you do not.

So I took the liberty of contacting a Police Officer and he confirmed what I had originally thought. I can indeed by a pistol from a private seller (non FFL holder) whether that person is my neighbor, uncle, brother, dad, older sister, or my cousin's friend's nephew's step dad. It doesnt matter.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Man, this thread reminds me of the good old days when I was 19. I knew it all then too!


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## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

Swamp Monster said:


> Man, this thread reminds me of the good old days when I was 19. I knew it all then too!


Hey man dont kill the messenger, just stating what I was told and what I found. Judging by what the LEO stated, it looks like I do know more then some people here based on what they posted about handgun laws.

And I currently have a 3.8 GPA in a Pre Med program at MSU, so I am trying to learn it all, just dont know it all yet. Very excited about the next few years at MSU. Its going to be a challenging road.


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## HOSS48604 (Aug 17, 2011)

What you are trying to do is NOT a straw purchase, for the simple reason that there are no laws pertaining to the LENGTH OF TIME for the ownership of a handgun. When I was 20 and my brother was graduating high school (he was 18) and I wanted to buy him a .22 pistol as a graduation gift. I didn't want my parents to discourage me from doing so. So I called upon my best friends father, he got a purchase permit and bought the pistol on Friday morning. I met him for lunch and after that we BOTH went to the Sheriffs Dept. He then had the gun registered in his name, making him the LEGAL owner of said pistol. As he was registering the pistol, I was getting my purchase permit, and as soon as the gun was registered to him we filled out the buyer/seller portion of MY purchase permit. The gun was then registered to me through a LEGAL transference of ownership. So even though it was a Pain in the a**, I left the Sheriffs department with a LEGALLY registered handgun. I then took it home, and the very next day (Sat.) I presented it to my brother as his gift (it never left my possession). On Monday afternoon My brother met me at the Sheriffs department got his purchase permit and LEGALLY took possession of his new hand gun. Even though the gun was bought from a dealer on Fri. and was in the LEGAL possession of an 18 year old by Monday afternoon (three LEGAL owners in four days) not a single law was broken. If anyone wants to debate the legality of the process, you can go try and tell the Sheriffs dept. how they participated in a "straw sale", and should be punished accordingly.:coolgleam


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

lovetohunt93 said:


> Well they have sold more pistols then you or I ever will.
> 
> I just got off the phone with the MI State Police, the officer said that it was perfectly legal as the way tallbear and petronius stated earlier in this thread.
> 
> I can buy a pistol but it has to be from a private seller. Regardless of who bought the pistol, or when it was bought. I just cant buy a new one from an FFL.


Thank You.
I spent some time years ago working with the state police handgun registration data base. It is very common for a handgun to be registered from one person to another a few times in a short period of time. An example is when a licensed dealer in Michigan buys a handgun from an individual. The dealer must register it. He then sells it to someone else the same day or in a couple of days who registers it. That person then decides to sell it shortly afterward (maybe to make a profit, he decides he doesn't like it or his wife got angry). The next buyer registers it. There is no problem as long as the procedures are followed. Don't forget, the selling or transfer date is on the permit.


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## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

HOSS48604 said:


> What you are trying to do is NOT a straw purchase, for the simple reason that there are no laws pertaining to the LENGTH OF TIME for the ownership of a handgun. When I was 20 and my brother was graduating high school (he was 18) and I wanted to buy him a .22 pistol as a graduation gift. I didn't want my parents to discourage me from doing so. So I called upon my best friends father, he got a purchase permit and bought the pistol on Friday morning. I met him for lunch and after that we BOTH went to the Sheriffs Dept. He then had the gun registered in his name, making him the LEGAL owner of said pistol. As he was registering the pistol, I was getting my purchase permit, and as soon as the gun was registered to him we filled out the buyer/seller portion of MY purchase permit. The gun was then registered to me through a LEGAL transference of ownership. So even though it was a Pain in the a**, I left the Sheriffs department with a LEGALLY registered handgun. I then took it home, and the very next day (Sat.) I presented it to my brother as his gift (it never left my possession). On Monday afternoon My brother met me at the Sheriffs department got his purchase permit and LEGALLY took possession of his new hand gun. Even though the gun was bought from a dealer on Fri. and was in the LEGAL possession of an 18 year old by Monday afternoon (three LEGAL owners in four days) not a single law was broken. If anyone wants to debate the legality of the process, you can go try and tell the Sheriffs dept. how they participated in a "straw sale", and should be punished accordingly.:coolgleam





petronius said:


> Thank You.
> I spent some time years ago working with the state police handgun registration data base. It is very common for a handgun to be registered from one person to another a few times in a short period of time. An example is when a licensed dealer in Michigan buys a handgun from an individual. The dealer must register it. He then sells it to someone else the same day or in a couple of days who registers it. That person then decides to sell it shortly afterward (maybe to make a profit, he decides he doesn't like it or his wife got angry). The next buyer registers it. There is no problem as long as the procedures are followed. Don't forget, the selling or transfer date is on the permit.


And this is what I have been trying to say this whole time, but some guys still thought it was NOT legal for me to by a handgun from a private seller.

Thank you both for clearing this up for many people on here. They can worry about the straw sales, but I am going legally own a pistol here in the next month or so.

I am looking forward to hunting this fall with a .44 mag handgun that I legally own and bought off a private seller.


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## Parkerman (Feb 3, 2006)

MEL said:


> If I remember correctly having some one buy it then sell it to you is illegal
> Its called a Straw purchase.
> 
> You can buy from a private seller. The issue there is finding someone with a gun you want who is looking to sell.


 
You are "Correct !" :yikes:


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## tallbear (May 18, 2005)

Parkerman said:


> You are "Correct !" :yikes:


You are agreeing with MEL but neither of you have provided where "in the law" it is illegal. 

On the other hand, people have shown where "in the law" it is legal.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

tallbear said:


> You are agreeing with MEL but neither of you have provided where "in the law" it is illegal.
> 
> On the other hand, people have shown where "in the law" it is legal.



I was gonna leave this thread alone now that the OP seems to have all the answers. But
I remember reading I believe that it was on a law forum or the MSP web site or even MI.gov about a straw purchase.
Im not about to try to go back and research this now as the OP has pointed out that he's premed at MSU with a 3.90, so he is much more then able to look this stuff up himself.

Anyway, It seemed to imply "intent". If i intend to purchase a handgun and give it or sell it to my 19 y/o son so he can hunt in the fall. Thats OK.
If I purchase a handgun for someone who is under age or a felon for the purpose of giving or selling it to that person because they are not able to 
purchase it themselves legally, that is an Illegal straw sale. 

So if the OP's parent or guardian (im not sure about extended family) makes the purchase and gives it or sells it to him it all good.

If a friend or neighbor or extended family member makes the purchase for him then sells it to him that can be an illegal straw purchase because the intent was to circumvent the law. Why was it an illegal straw purchase? Because the friend,neighbor,etc made the purchase knowing that the OP was to young to make the purchase themselves. 
Now if the gun is used for the purpose that the OP says it should never be an issue.
However, lets say the OP or some other under 21 y/o asked a friend or neighbor to make that purchase then went out and shot someone with that gun them im quite sure the police will trace that back and see that it was an illegal straw purchase and then could bring charges against the 
friend or neighbor who made the original purchase.

Im thinking YOU know more about this subject then I do?

IM DONE!!!


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## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

MEL, I know you said you are done.

But lets say a person bought a handgun then sold it to someone that is 18>21 (which is completely legal) and then that person shot someone like you said. How would they decide if it was a straw purchase or not? Really no way to prove it.

I mean it very well could have been a straw purchase, and it very well could have been the person just did not like that gun and wanted to sell it.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

lovetohunt93 said:


> MEL, I know you said you are done.
> 
> But lets say a person bought a handgun then sold it to someone that is 18>21 (which is completely legal) and then that person shot someone like you said. How would they decide if it was a straw purchase or not? Really no way to prove it.
> 
> I mean it very well could have been a straw purchase, and it very well could have been the person just did not like that gun and wanted to sell it.



I dont know the answer to this but I am 100% sure that if a Proscuteing attorney wants to prove "intent" in this case they will.
Ask yourself why are innocent people sent to prison? Why are guilty set free?


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Mel is correct in his statement about *intent*. Thats the whole argument...intent. If your neighbor buys a gun with the intent to sell it to you because you legally cannot purchase a new handgun from said dealer, it's a straw purchase plain and simple based on the letter of the law. And just in Michigan, every county is just different enough in their interpretation of the process that it could be an issue regardless of the internet tales we read. If you are going to keep this process within your family, you'll be fine as that is considered legal. Non family members are pushing the letter of the law to a degree. 


My earlier comment was about your opinion of a Gander Mtn sales guys credentials. You're a smart kid with a good future, you should know better than to think some hourly part timer behind a gun counter is an authority on state and federal firearms laws. Don't trust such important issues on such information, just like you should not trust such information on internet forums. Federal firearms laws are nothing to play around with.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

The next round of anti gun legislation will be centered around this very topic. I will not be surprised if the sale of firearms from private sellers to private buyers is outlawed and that all firearms transactions will have to done thru an ffl. They will try to push the law with all guns and will settle with handguns. The purchase permit system is not good enough for those that are against guns.


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## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

MEL said:


> I dont know the answer to this but I am 100% sure that if a Proscuteing attorney wants to prove "intent" in this case they will.
> Ask yourself why are *innocent people sent to prison? Why are guilty set free?*


Because now days it is not about common sense or law, its whoever has the most money to get good lawyers. A person with lots of money can get away with anything.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Why don't we close this thread and move on to the baiting issue?


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## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

petronius said:


> Why don't we close this thread and move on to the baiting issue?


Could you imagine if someone was hunting over bait with a handgun that was straw purchased? OH NO! :yikes:


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## rein1 (Jun 30, 2008)

lovetohunt93 said:


> Hey guys I am new here on MI Sportsman.
> 
> My question is about buying pistols when you are between the age of 18-20. (I am 19)
> 
> ...


Actually your buyer would be doing a straw purchase which is illegal,,,,look at form 4473 ,,,,
Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples
Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine,,,,, just by a handgun from a private individual...


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

rein1 said:


> Actually your buyer would be doing a straw purchase which is illegal,,,,look at form 4473 ,,,,
> Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine,,,,, just by a handgun from a private individual...


This is a funny little thing when it comes to buying a handgun in Michigan. A buyer needs to either get a purchase permit or use the procedures if he has a CPL. That person would be the actual buyer of the handgun. If that person wanted to sell or transfer the handgun to another person, the other person would then need to get a purchase permit, or if 21 or older and had a CPL, would follow those procedures. This would then not be a straw purchase.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

The "modern" interpretation of the law is, to purchase a firearm for some one who could not legally own the gun. Buying for a "Gift" for someone who can legally own the firearm is perfectly legal........Most of the time the devil is in the details .................................How old does one have to be to legally purchase pistol ammunition?


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## lovetohunt93 (Feb 28, 2012)

GIDEON said:


> The "modern" interpretation of the law is, to purchase a firearm for some one who could not legally own the gun. Buying for a "Gift" for someone who can legally own the firearm is perfectly legal........Most of the time the devil is in the details .................................How old does one have to be to legally purchase pistol ammunition?



But that is just the thing, in MI you can legally own a handgun at age 18. You just can't legally buy one from a FFL. 

As for purchasing handgun ammo? One of my friends bought a Marlin lever action .44mag and he also bought ammo with it. He was 20. The clerk even checked his drivers license and determined he was under 21. But he said there is some "play" in the handgun ammo laws.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

lovetohunt93 said:


> But that is just the thing, in MI you can legally own a handgun at age 18. You just can't legally buy one from a FFL.
> 
> As for purchasing handgun ammo? One of my friends bought a Marlin lever action .44mag and he also bought ammo with it. He was 20. The clerk even checked his drivers license and determined he was under 21. But he said there is some "play" in the handgun ammo laws.


 True............the devil is in the details, if the kid had stated the 44mags were for a pistol, then no sale, dont give out excessive information when purchasing....................re-read my original answer


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