# Why Shoot The Little Guys?



## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

k9wernet said:


> Call it what you will, NoWake, but I immediately conceded that a few of these guys have good reasons for shooting young bucks.


Yes you did. But the whole premiss of there needing to be a reason in the first place is what comes off as being a little 'holier than thou'



k9wernet said:


> If that's jabbing in your book, I think someone's a little sensitive about the issue.
> KW


I pretty much only shoot does to help control the population and for the venison. The only reason I replied to this thread at all is because every year around this time it is like a contest to see who can put down other hunters in a polite enough way that it doesn't get deleted. If you really want to know why someone does what they do ask them directly. Find a thread where someone posts a pic of a deer you think is below your standards and ask them why they shot it. Ask them their 'thought process'. Better yet, next time you see a young buck in the back of someones pickup at the gas station or wherever, walk up and ask them why, and what their thought process was. 

Look at the bright side, if it wasn't for all those hunters 'beneath' you, you would be just another hunter.


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## DoubleDropTineTrouble (Nov 11, 2007)

Someone asks a genuine (i hope) question to be better informed and guys jump down his throat about him ridiculing what people shoot. READ FIRST.

The ignorance on here drives me nuts sometimes...."i'll do what i damn well please on my land" "you're an idiot if you shoot young deer" and on and on.....

I'll give you my point of view from when i used to target any bucks including young bucks. I grew up hunting northern michigan swamp deer under the mindset that you don't shoot the does or the bucks wont have a reason to come around/there wont be as many deer next year/etc. That was just what was handed down to me from the older guys in the camp. I never questioned their logic-after all they had more experience and must know more about deer. I watched many of them year after year not get a deer or take the first antlered deer that walked by and were proud to have gotten a buck, since this is what they were after. They were mostly firearm hunters and doe tags were not as available as they are today. They never complained about not getting a bigger buck. If someone did get a bruiser, it was great and everyone stood around the buck pole with a cold beer as it was being hoisted up and made comments about how impressive it was. But it didn't change their goals - any buck was a success. At some point that changed and some were interested in shooting bigger bucks so they started passing deer-that would get shot by the next guy down the line. It started a rift that eventually forced the camp into sale. The problem crops up when someone's goals and expectations don't coincide with anothers. 

The problem as I see it now is that people's goals have changed and more people are jumping on the Big Buck bandwagon, with the intention of shooting larger antlered deer (i'll raise my hand). There are still people that dont buy into this. Doesn't make them right or wrong though.


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

Why Do I shoot young bucks, Because he came into my range and gave me a decent shot. In the end it is about filling up the freezer. I take many more does than bucks so I feel no guilt. I am just as proud of the yearling I kill as the 8 point I have taken.
Don't till me to just by beef its cheaper. All my stuff is paid for and have been for years, plus I like to kill things.


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

Thunderhead said:


> Oh, ok. I see.
> 
> I don't care what a guy shoots either. It's just kinda wierd when " Trophy Hunter " is said, it almost seems like a swear word to some.........or something to be ashamed of.


 I don't believe in killing something I'm not going to eat. Therefore when people pay big money to go kill an animal JUST to put it's head in their trophy room, just rubs me the wrong way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for killing a big buck but I don't think our game laws etc. need to be governed around making sure there's a big buck around every tree for the "bone collectors". 

And to answer your other question to me, No, I don't think you are any less of a hunter than I am, I assume you enjoy eating your kills.


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## MuskyDan (Dec 27, 2001)

*TABLE FARE*

they drag easier, taste better and more numerous. Plus they are dumb and easy to shoot. Also they are smaller which means it takes a true marksman to hit the kill zone!


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## D-Fresh (Feb 8, 2005)

DoubleDropTineTrouble said:


> Someone asks a genuine (i hope) question to be better informed and guys jump down his throat about him ridiculing what people shoot. READ FIRST.


I think part of the problem is that this question has been asked 19833983 times on this site, and there are clearly 2 sides to the issue, and most guys on either side won't budge on their opinion/practice.

FWIW, I have respect for the guys like you who may practice taking mature bucks only, but at the same time don't force your hunting practices on other guys or call them ignorant.


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## wally-eye (Oct 27, 2004)

Yep.....just using one specific male whitetail......he's just as dead at 1 1/2 as he'd be at 3 1/2.........except for one thing.......






.


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## Chasin (Jun 25, 2002)

k9wernet said:


> Alright guys, I'm pretty new to deer hunting, so bear with me, ok? I'm not looking to start a fire fight here, just a friendly conversation.
> 
> I see lots of posts and pictures with guys shooting spikes, 3 or 4-points, 6-points -- obviously young deer. While taking any deer with a bow is an accomplishment, I wonder what your thought process is when you shoot that deer.
> 
> ...



I often wonder the exact same thing...


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

D-Fresh said:


> I think part of the problem is that this question has been asked 19833983 times on this site, and there are clearly 2 sides to the issue, and most guys on either side won't budge on their opinion/practice.
> 
> FWIW, I have respect for the guys like you who may practice taking mature bucks only, but at the same time don't force your hunting practices on other guys or call them ignorant.



actually I did budge this year.. I shot a doe and tagged it knowing I would have to shoot a 4point on one side or better. Although I was pissed when I found out I could've tagged it with my restricted tag and shot one of the bucks I've been passing every night lol.

As much of a meat hunter that I am, I do let young bucks walk if I can tag a doe instead. When it boils down to meat in the freezer though, I take what I can get.


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## hunt&fish (Oct 19, 2009)

Skibum said:


> Wooo boy
> 
> I'll probably get in trouble but I'll take a stab at it. Any more I pass young bucks and focus on does and mature bucks but I have shot my share of yearling bucks in the last 35 years of bowhunting. I think you first have to look at the history of deer hunting in Michigan primarily after WWII and before bowhunting became popular in the late 70's through early 80's. For the most part the limit on deer was one antlered buck per year. That's what our fathers and grandfathers grew up with. The goal was always more deer and deer were looked at like pheasants. Shoot the roosters spare the hens. There was a fiasco of an antlerless hunt in the 50's that only served to reinforce that belief. For deer hunters any buck became a trophy because buck to doe ratios were out of whack and if you saw antlers you didn't hesitate to shoot. The question hunters asked each other was 'did you get your buck?" If it happened to be a big one great but no one questioned the size. Prior to around 1980 bowhunters were far and few between and their success rates were minimal. I started in 1974 and if I remember right the success rate was around 5%. Lack of treestands and compound bows were part of it but so was the single tag. If you shot a doe with a bow you were done for the year. No gun season. Bowhunting took off in the 80's as treestands became legal, compounds became standard, and more importantly deer populations exploded and the bag limit increased. Still it was focused on bucks. There was a time you could shoot 4 bucks, 2 with a bow and 2 with a gun. That is what everyone focused on. Finally I think you need to realize that many of us are far more serious hunters than the majority. A high percentage of both bow and gun hunters are weekend warrior types who don't hunt enough to pass up shots and for whom a 4 point is reason to celebrate. All of that combined history put more value in hunters minds on bucks regardless of age. It is still there to a large degree although I have seen significant changes in attitudes over the past 10 years or so. More and more hunters are focusing on taking does and letting young bucks walk and as a result there are more older class bucks and we are seeing better ratios in some areas. I support that but I'm careful to be too critical when a hunter takes a young buck and is thrilled with it. That's the name of the game. As those hunters gain experience I like to gently steer them towards the advantages of being more selective on bucks and more focused on does but I'll never criticize a hunter who legally and ethically takes a deer that he or she feels good about. Sorry for the long winded response.



Very nice, couldnt a said it better!


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## passport (Jul 26, 2009)

Most guys shoot young bucks cuz that is all they have in inventory, and the reason that is all they have is because they shoot em. 

Im MI we are dead last to do any kind of deer mgt, I will shoot a scrub because I know hes gonna get pounded the second he crosses off my 40. I really try to shoot 2 1/2 year olds, would like to focus on 3 1/2 but there are almost none where I hunt and I do like venison. I shoot a few does per year and take tons of heat for it. 

Bottom line is MI hunters have LOTS and LOTS to learn about heard mgt................

The saga will go on and on and on and on.........


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

passport said:


> Bottom line is MI hunters have LOTS and LOTS to learn about heard mgt................
> 
> The saga will go on and on and on and on.........


The above statement is one of the main reasons there is so much division on the issue. Herd mgmt is a title. It has absolutely no meaning in and of itself. Your idea of management may differ from another mgmt idea but neither are necessarily right or wrong. It's an individual opinion based on one's own desires. To say that herd mgmt in MI is wrong is an OPINION. One that anyone has the right to express, but one that remains an opinion nonetheless.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Michihunter said:


> The above statement is one of the main reasons there is so much division on the issue. Herd mgmt is a title. It has absolutely no meaning in and of itself. Your idea of management may differ from another mgmt idea but neither are necessarily right or wrong. It's an individual opinion based on one's own desires. To say that herd mgmt in MI is wrong is an OPINION. One that anyone has the right to express, but one that remains an opinion nonetheless.


Good post, Ted. Heck, I think Michigan is doing a great job of herd management. I usually shoot at least 2 deer every year. Why should I complain? A deer is a deer is a deer in my book. Always has been, always will be. Herd management is for the big acre property owners who have the ways and means to do some herd management. The state of Michigan owns thousands of acres here in Michigan and the best part is, they actually let me hunt any or all of it that I want. Now, how can you possibly beat that? It only costs me a few bucks per year in taxes, and the license. I'll go ahead and let Jenny and Becky and the rest of the gang manage my land for me. Oh and did I mention, they don't care what deer I shoot on MY property(yes, my property, seeing as how it is public land)the only stipulation is that one buck has to have at least 4 points on a side and I can only shoot an antlerless if I have a proper tag for the area I am hunting. So, keep up the good work, Michigan!


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## 6inchtrack (Sep 29, 2008)

*SPOTS*

It gives ya something to aim for.


.


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## Bearblade (Dec 30, 2005)

I'll shoot a smaller buck if I want to. As long as it's legal, ethical and enjoyable I don't feel a need to defend my choice.


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## Girtski (Apr 29, 2009)

I only shoot brown deer.


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## fishnpbr (Dec 2, 2007)

Here is my excuse. I like it, it's fun, it gives me pleasure, I can, it's legal. Did I mention I like it. Yes even at age 50, and even though I've killed some very nice bucks, I just plain old like it. Now if you feel like this some how unjustly affects your hunting, your enjoyment, and your desire for big horns then I would spend your own personal time and do what is ever it takes to change this horrible problem. Then MI could be like those other great states. Some folks just don't need to pass a legal buck in hopes of shooting a bigger one to derive enjoyment from hunting. If anyone views this as an ignorant thought process then get going with your personal time and get things changed. When it becomes law I will gladly follow them.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Sorry guys -- didn't realize this was such a can of worms. 

As someone who really enjoys (and therefore spends a lot of time) hunting, I guess I could see how if you're only going to get out once or twice in a season your practices might differ.

I guess stumpjumper sums it up pretty well:



StumpJumper said:


> As much of a meat hunter that I am, I do let young bucks walk if I can tag a doe instead. When it boils down to meat in the freezer though, I take what I can get.


and that makes sense to me.

I guess my bottom line is the same as a lot of yours: there's as much meat on a doe as there is on a buck. If I see trophy buck, I'm going to put it on my wall. If I think there's a chance the only meat I'm going to get in a season is on a spike, I guess I'd probably think hard about taking it. I'm just fortunate enough to not really be in that situation at this point in my life with good access to good hunting, and lots of hours to spend at it.

Thanks for your thoughts.

KW


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

fishnpbr said:


> Some folks just don't need to pass a legal buck in hopes of shooting a bigger one to derive enjoyment from hunting. If anyone views this as an ignorant thought process then get going with your personal time and get things changed.


But there's the conundrum: If all of us did, none of us would need to. I'm just surprised that more people -- meat and trophy hunters -- don't see the logic in that. 

Again, it's can of worms and for all I'm concerned the mods can shut this thing down.

KW


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Bearblade said:


> I don't feel a need to defend my choice.


I didn't ask for a defense, I asked for a motive. "Because I felt like it" isn't much of a motive... Guess I assumed there was a better reason than that .

KW


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## Fur-minator (Nov 28, 2007)

I pass on smaller bucks every year. So far this year I let two spikes, one 4pt, and one 6 pt walk by. At some point that feeling comes over me like it has so many times before. My heart starts to beat faster and I just know that I want to take this animal. May be some sort of primal instinct that I can't explain. I will shoot a small buck even a spike if it feels right and I will take it home so my kids can put their hands on the antlers. We will eat the meat and the antlers will go on the wall in my garage no matter the size. 

As a young hunter I spent hours in the blind dreaming of that trophy class buck coming down the trail. Back then it was truly a challenge to even see a 3 1/2 yr old buck and if you shot one everyone in town would drive out to see it. You were the envy of town. These days it seems to me that everyone wants to stack the odds in their favor when it comes to big bucks. If everyone can shoot a 130+ buck every year it will no longer be a trophy. 

I don't buy all of the buck to doe ratio theories. If you have too many bucks for every doe you will have more competion, more injured bucks and more broken racks. The bucks will have a harder seson which will lead to a struggle to survive through the winter.

I am not trying to bash. I just have my opinion

My final answer is because I will enjoy it.


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## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

you know why guys shoot small bucks? Because they cant shoot big ones. Either they think there is no big ones in there area, they dont have the patience, or god forbid they go a season without A BUCK.
They are legal to shoot so can we blame the guys?


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

TheCrawdad said:


> I, like some others, have small children at home, and my wife works fulltime also. It's not easy to find time to get away and hunt. I have passed small bucks in the past, but the last 5 years or so, *I probaby only average one good shot opportunity per year (gun and bow) on ANY buck.* It seems to me that most of the guys who preach passing on these deer are the ones that have the best hunting areas as well as the most time to put in. Personally, I'm quite happy to take what i can get.


How many ops do you have at does? And how would they be any different if you shot one, instead of a small buck?


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## Henrik for President (Sep 21, 2009)

I passed up a nice spike at 10 yards opening night, only to save my unrestricted tag for early rut. I'll thwack a doe and use my restricted tag anyday, though. As the season wears on, I get a little more itchy with my release finger...


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## Dynrat (Jun 13, 2003)

I shot a small one last year. It was a 1-1/2 year with a fairly large 4-point. I can honestly say I took it because I had to. After years of hunting, slow learning, and only nominal success it was the first buck I had ever seen while hunting. I know that is probably my fault for lack of learning, but I am getting better. All I know is that when that thing walked in it looked like a 4-1/2 year 20 point to me and I was either going to shoot it or die of a heart attack. May have been small but it was an adrenalin rush I'll never forget all the same.


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## kwcharne (Jan 8, 2008)

Fred Bear said:


> you know why guys shoot small bucks? Because they cant shoot big ones. Either they think there is no big ones in there area, they dont have the patience, or god forbid they go a season without A BUCK.
> They are legal to shoot so can we blame the guys?


 
Oh, of course.... Its only the "good" hunters that shoot big bucks. The people that shoot smalls ones just do it because they cant shoot the big ones Now I understand my problem


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Like I said before, _I don't care what a guy shoots._

Each man goes to the woods looking for something only he knows.

That being said, I'm talking to the few guys that commented that they would like to kill a bigg'un.

If you want to kill a big buck, you absolutely _have_ to let the ones you aren't interested in pass. You just gotta do it. Not only so they can grow, _but in hopes that a bigger one will come in_.

Smack a doe for meat, put your time in and wait it out.
Odds are, you'll kill, or _at least_ have 1 chance at a mature deer. It might take all season for that 1 chance, or, you might not see one at all.

That's the way it is.

Personally, this year alone I've passed 4 bucks already. 1 was a 120 class 8pt. He'll be a honker next year if he makes it. With all this rain and the corn still up, his chances are pretty good.
I've got a boatload of hours in and oppertunities are comming few and far between this year. I might not get that chance.........then again, I just might. 
The sign is there. 
He's there. You just have to be patient.

Again, this advise is to those that want to match wits with a brusier. Hunters that have the time to put in. It's not easy and might take countless hours on stand until that 5 second window opens up for you.
And more often than not, it will.
People say that Michigan has no big bucks......not true.

Michigan has a ton of big bucks. You just need to discipline yourself and lett'em walk until your shooter comes strolling by.


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## dja05 (Nov 10, 2008)

What do you consider big? What do you consider little? Just wednesday I had to let a 6 point go because I have already shot a 5 point. Was the six big, not really but I bet if it walks out in front of my daughter on Nov. 15 it will be considered the biggest in the world in our family. She is a first year hunter and I will encourage her to take any legal animal she chooses to. Last year I passed on 9 different smaller bucks (7 or less) and come Nov. 15 I didn't see another antlered deer for the rest of the year. And yes I will take all the does that offer me a shot until I'm out of tags. Last year I shot a 3 point that had a huge body over the 5 and 6 points that were with him in a bachelor group, why because he was the bigger deer and I do hunt for meat. If that bothers anyone or offends them I'm not sorry. It was a totally legal kill and an ethical one too. I find it funny anyone starts a post wanting explainations from poeple who legally took deer to defend thier actions.:lol::lol: But there have been some really good post's either way so far, it's nice to see a cival debate for a change.


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## skulldugary (Apr 12, 2003)

Why shoot the little guys????? BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL TO DO SO IF ONE CHOOSES TO. A hunter buys his license and under law any deer with 3" antlers is fair game.If some of ya don't feel thats right THEN GET THE LAWS CHANGED.I've read some pretty low comments aimed taward those that legally have taken small bucks and as long as it's legal to do so and within the law so be it.Put that in your pipe and smoke it....


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

skulldugary said:


> Why shoot the little guys????? BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL TO DO SO IF ONE CHOOSES TO. A hunter buys his license and under law any deer with 3" antlers is fair game.If some of ya don't feel thats right THEN GET THE LAWS CHANGED.I've read some pretty low comments aimed taward those that legally have taken small bucks and as long as it's legal to do so and within the law so be it.Put that in your pipe and smoke it....


No need to get all bent out of shape. Nobody is flaming anyone here.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

dja05 said:


> What do you consider big?


That would be up to you. Let'em walk until the one you want comes in.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thunderhead said:


> No need to get all bent out of shape. Nobody is flaming anyone here.


Yeah, they are Thunder. Sorry but it's true, the OP started the fire by posting the question. Like the above post, I too get a little tired of the questions about what should or should not be shot despite what is legal to shoot. Far too many people want others to follow their lead. The hand-wringing never ends. The game laws are in place for a reason. No need to question it. Too much "do it my way or the highway" to suit me. By the way, good luck with your quest for the deer of your choice.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

I have to disagree Skip.

It was legal to shoot roosted Turkeys not to long ago........it was questioned, and rightfully changed.

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean we should always turn a blind eye and agree it is right.


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## skulldugary (Apr 12, 2003)

Tom,I did'nt say anyone was flaming....but look at some of the posts from the past on other threads.....Sorry if it seemed I was coming off a little strong...to each thier own.....good luck to all reguardless of what you choose to shoot....


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

skulldugary said:


> Tom,I did'nt say anyone was flaming....but look at some of the posts from the past on other threads.....Sorry if it seemed I was coming off a little strong...to each thier own.....good luck to all reguardless of what you choose to shoot....


I hear ya. This thread was remaining somewhat civil. 
Kinda nice for a change.


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## Jigin-N-Grinin (Jan 22, 2008)

Ieatantlers said:


> I believe growing up so many people learned from their fathers- just wait for a buck. Look for horns, and shoot it! The same people would always razz people who shot does. Its a 'girly' thing. Its all just ignorant thinking. People in other states (Kansas, Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin) laugh at michigan hunters for shooting young bucks. There is absolutely no logical thinking attached to shooting a 1.5 year old buck, unless you are a meat hunter who shoots the first deer that walks by. Or for a first time deer hunter. That is 100% fine by me. Any other 'excuse' is just that, an excuse. Its completely legal, fine- but people who shoot a 1.5 year old buck are killing a pea-brained animal, basically equivalent to a human adolescant in development. Shooting a mature doe is much more of a challenge. However, the 'pioneers' of hunting in our state thought otherwise, it was girly to shoot does and real men shoot those big fierce monster spikes and 4 points. It takes a long time to get rid of that mentality, but its slowly happening in a lot of areas.


 
Well Said!


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## sbooy42 (Mar 6, 2007)

I could really careless what others shoot as long as their satisfied..

But it does irk me when a hunter is hunting an area with doe permits yet they pass up does and shoot a little buck, then claim meat hunter status as they run around town showing it off...

Along with wondering what meat hunters dream about the night before, it makes wonder if that little buck would have been shot if the hunter didn't have that second buck take in their pocket..

FYI.. hunters wont loose their man card for shooting does..


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## Fur-minator (Nov 28, 2007)

Thunderhead said:


> That would be up to you. Let'em walk until the one you *want* comes in.


I think you hit the nail on the head. Most people who shoot 1 1/2 yr deer when they come in want to.



sbooy42 said:


> I could really careless what others shoot as long as their satisfied..
> 
> But it does irk me when a hunter is hunting an area with doe permits yet they pass up does and shoot a little buck, then claim meat hunter status as they run around town showing it off...


 
Either you could careless or it irks you, Which is it?

Hunters may think that they would like to have more deer so shooting does isn't the way to make that happen. I know alot of guys want a higher buck to doe ratio and most may feel the area has too many deer. If a hunter sits in the woods 15 days without seeing a deer he may want to keep some does around for his specific area. There are not that many breeding does on the farm I hunt. If most of them are shot there will be no reason for the bucks to be around anyway. I always have a doe permit with me in case it is needed for a mercy killing but I don't shoot does every year. When I shoot a 1 1/2 yr. buck I am proud of it and will show it off. For two years in a row I have won the buck pool at work with 1 1/2 year old bucks. All of the guys that put in $10 and hold out for the monster end up donating their money to me.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thunderhead said:


> I have to disagree Skip.
> 
> It was legal to shoot roosted Turkeys not to long ago........it was questioned, and rightfully changed.
> 
> Just because something is legal, doesn't mean we should always turn a blind eye and agree it is right.


I agree, that's fine to not agree, as long as you don't disagree to the point of breaking the law. That's really the whole gist of this discussion. The simple fact remains that baiting in the lower is illegal. It's probably a dumb law, I agree, but as long as it is here we as sportsmen should adhere to it. That's my only beef.


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## sbooy42 (Mar 6, 2007)

Fur-minator said:


> Either you could careless or it irks you, Which is it?


Explained in post....


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## fishnpbr (Dec 2, 2007)

jackbob42 said:


> In your post you say nothing about passing on young deer , only young bucks. So , that tells me that big antlers are important to you. And that's fine.
> Myself , I don't care about them. I hunt because I like to hunt , and I like venison.
> I don't hunt for food , as I could go to the store and buy beef cheaper anyway. So , to me , it don't matter. Young , old , buck , or doe.
> I don't hunt to impress you , the neighbor , the guys at work , or anybody else but me.
> ...


Nice statement. That about sums it up for me as well, but somewhere along the line hunting enjoyment is about your man card, vagina, or being a real hunter. Oh yea, and big antlers. Peace


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## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

if you shoot your spike/fork horn then go hunting for a "big" buck you have already shot next years "big" buck. I dont really care but just pointing out reality.


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## fishnpbr (Dec 2, 2007)

Fred Bear said:


> if you shoot your spike/fork horn then go hunting for a "big" buck you have already shot next years "big" buck. I dont really care but just pointing out reality.


So would shooting 2 big bucks be OK? I have bought a combo tag every year they have been available and have shot 2 bucks in a single season exactly once.


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## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

sure, shoot the bucks you want. Just like another poster said. I just think it is ironic when somebody shoots a small buck then goes and looks for the big one. I used to do it. But then I got to thinking. I have already shot the buck of the future.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

fishnpbr said:


> So would shooting 2 big bucks be OK? I have bought a combo tag every year they have been available and have shot 2 bucks in a single season exactly once.


I think Fred's point is that if you let the little bucks become big bucks there will eventually be more big bucks to shoot. It's not exactly rocket science. 

I think there are very few people who, if they are honest, would prefer a young buck to a mature buck. It seems to me that there are people who want a deer, any deer, and there are people who want a trophy. Outside specific management concerns that have been acknowledged here (and that are probably atypical of the state as a whole), there is no reason to take a young buck over a similarly aged doe; and I've yet to read where anyone said they'd pass on a 5-year-old bruiser, because they're holding out for some of that tender delicious spike meat that they do so enjoy. 

Honestly now "meat hunters" -- if that bruiser walks by, tell me you're not going to enjoy sending photos to all your friends and family members, and having that mount up on your wall, just as much as any so-called "trophy hunter" would? I just find it hard to believe that anyone would intentionally diminish the quality of the "trophy buck" herd. You can say you don't care about antlers, but I bet you pee your pants when you see them, just like the rest of us.

KW


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## TroutSeeker71 (Mar 24, 2008)

So, as I just read 11 pages of posts while watching Exteme Outdoors where the hunter was out to get "a big ole buck", a question comes to mind. Say an obviously mature 250 lb. buck comes through, sporting what would be a beautiful 150" rack,...however, he has managed to break off one entire side and his G2 on the remaining side, leaving 4 legal points. Would you shoot it?


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

k9wernet said:


> I think Fred's point is that if you let the little bucks become big bucks there will eventually be more big bucks to shoot. It's not exactly rocket science.
> 
> I think there are very few people who, if they are honest, would prefer a young buck to a mature buck. It seems to me that there are people who want a deer, any deer, and there are people who want a trophy. Outside specific management concerns that have been acknowledged here (and that are probably atypical of the state as a whole), there is no reason to take a young buck over a similarly aged doe; and I've yet to read where anyone said they'd pass on a 5-year-old bruiser, because they're holding out for some of that tender delicious spike meat that they do so enjoy.
> 
> ...


 I don't have room on my wall for a big one but I like using the spikes and 4 points for coat hangers etc. 

I've done my duty this year, I shot a doe and have let a bunch of small bucks walk. I am after a big one. I've changed my thinking and figured it would piss off the trophy guys if I shot their trophy rather than a button buck..:lol:


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

StumpJumper said:


> ...I am after a big one. I've changed my thinking and figured it would piss off the trophy guys if I shot their trophy rather than a button buck..:lol:


I hope you get him! I think I'm done until gun season. I used my restricted tag on a doe so I now I can use my regular tag to drag out a spike on the 15th :yikes:


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## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

k9wernet said:


> I think Fred's point is that if you let the little bucks become big bucks there will eventually be more big bucks to shoot. It's not exactly rocket science.
> 
> I think there are very few people who, if they are honest, would prefer a young buck to a mature buck. It seems to me that there are people who want a deer, any deer, and there are people who want a trophy. Outside specific management concerns that have been acknowledged here (and that are probably atypical of the state as a whole), there is no reason to take a young buck over a similarly aged doe; and I've yet to read where anyone said they'd pass on a 5-year-old bruiser, because they're holding out for some of that tender delicious spike meat that they do so enjoy.
> 
> ...


yep, you got my point to a tee. let me ask this question. Why do we all want big racks? What makes it a trophy? it's because the bigger the rack the more years the deer has under his belt. Thus making him smarter. And isnt this a sport of out smarting our game? If it is a sport of just "getting" a deer, I am loosing this year. Why not shoot a doe? Because she has no rack to show how old she is. Deer hunting in Michigan has become getting "your" deer. Any deer as long as you get a deer. Few people in MI realize just how hard it is to trick a mature whitetail. And at work they are held up on some kind of pedestal if they have got 3 deer no matter the age. For me it about the game. me against the deer, that has had arrows and lead slung at it since it was 6 months old. If you are satisfied with spikes and forks, go ahead. I'm moving on. Just makes the game that much more fun for me.


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## laterilus (Mar 18, 2006)

I'll be honest I like running arrows and bullets through deer,and all that goes with it.Stand prep, scouting,practice,talk of hunts gone by. I love being in the outdoors with my friends and family. When we look down and slap each other on the back and say nice shot lets eat the loins and crack a beer we are on cloud nine. Sure a big antlered animal would be great, but for me not a big deal.


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## Teambowtech1030 (Nov 3, 2008)

With your thinking process you WILL have nice bucks on the wall my freind. I have hunted for over 30 yrs in Michigan. I am 36 yrs old. Alot of Michigan deer hunters shoot little bucks, why? Because our DNR allows it. Why do we see alot of hunters complaining of the size of deer we see in Michigan. Because just look on here, this forum, count how many guys you see saying, "LOOK, got my real nice buck tonight" you look at the pic and it's some little basket eight point that measures 70' and is a yr and a half old deer. Why does Iowa grow big deer. They dont have the pressure we have, the DNR actually knows how to manage the deer for the good. If Michigan ever wants to be Illinois, Iowa, Ohio and so on, we will have to change the license situation, not allow two bucks, designate a size requirement, and manage. I dont see that happening though since we are a money driven state, who cares about the deer just as long as we sell a million licenses. JMO










k9wernet said:


> Alright guys, I'm pretty new to deer hunting, so bear with me, ok? I'm not looking to start a fire fight here, just a friendly conversation.
> 
> I see lots of posts and pictures with guys shooting spikes, 3 or 4-points, 6-points -- obviously young deer. While taking any deer with a bow is an accomplishment, I wonder what your thought process is when you shoot that deer.
> 
> ...


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## Fur-minator (Nov 28, 2007)

Fred Bear said:


> let me ask this question. Why do we all want big racks? What makes it a trophy? it's because the bigger the rack the more years the deer has under his belt. *Thus making him smarter. * *And isnt this a sport of out smarting our game?* If it is a sport of just "getting" a deer, I am loosing this year. Why not shoot a doe? Because she has no rack to show how old she is. *Deer hunting in Michigan has become getting "your" deer.* Any deer as long as you get a deer. *Few people in MI realize just how hard it is to trick a mature whitetail.* And at work they are held up on some kind of pedestal if they have got 3 deer no matter the age. *For me it about the game. me against the deer, that has had arrows and lead slung at it since it was 6 months old.* If you are satisfied with spikes and forks, go ahead. I'm moving on. Just makes the game that much more fun for me.


 

You guys are right. I wouldn't turn down a large buck. I still dream of that big one coming down the trail. There are a lot of things that you won't open your eyes about though.

There are 1.1 million hunters in michigan. There aren't 1.1 million 300 acre farms for these hunters. The majority of the people in this state are hunting on state land or private land owned by someone else. Alot of these are smaller properties less than 20 acres.

*"Thus making him smarter*" age has less to do with how hard an animal is to get than environment. Yes out of two deer in the same environment the older one will probably be harder to get. A 1 1/2 yr buck may be harder to get from a high pressure property than a 4 1/2 yr deer on a managed property. That is why people have a sanctuary or an area of the property that nobody can go into. They know that it is a place where that bruiser will go go relax and that he will not be bumped into the county thus making that trophy easier. The guy on 15 acres or state land doesn't have this option.

*"And isnt this a sport of out smarting our game?" *If all deer hunters realy wanted this to be a sport they would all be shooting longbows. That is not the case though. This sport revolves around the next great gadget to give you the adavantage. Drop away rests, tritium sights, scent loc suits, faster bows, crossbows... How far down the technology ladder do you think I have to go before a 1 1/2 is a challenge? No sights. No release.

*"Few people in MI realize just how hard it is to trick a mature whitetail."* Few people in MI own enough property to manage their deer herd.

*"For me it about the game. me against the deer, that has had arrows and lead slung at it since it was 6 months old."* This goes against everything you are saying. You are trying to get people to stop flinging arrows and slugs at these deer. You are looking for a mature buck that hasn't had arrows flung at it because that makes it an easier trophy to get.

*"Deer hunting in Michigan has become getting "your" deer."* Deer hunting in other states has become getting "your" trophy. People keep talking about how good the hunting is in other states. I guess anyone can go to Iowa and connect with a 150 class buck. I guess a 150 class buck in Illinois is easier to get than a 130 class buck in Michigan. That is what you want easy.


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## 12970 (Apr 19, 2005)

Some are in to the Antler Worship and others are not. Some have the opposrtunity to take a big buck but there is a lot that goes in to hunting and what you have to hunt. Some have large parcels and no hunting pressurre by others. Some just are at the right place and right time. So of us are just lucky to get out and have the chance to take a buck (Legal) so to get some return on your time afield. There are many reasons why some are and many are not in the antler thing. 
FGor me that is just an extra bonus. I mainly a meat hunter but have taken some nice bucks just not here in Michigan because the few I have seen are out of my bow range or running at full speen and I am not willing to take a shot unless it is a quick kill shot but that is me. Each has their own idea of what a trophy is some think a small buck is being it might be the only deer they have a chance to shoot whuiles have larger bucks. I have good bucks in pictures on my trail cameras and each year sit and hunt and try to see one but have not had that opportunity and being I like to get some meat to eat I take what I am givin a chance to and as long as it is a legal deer I do otherwise I would be waiting a long time and get no meat. I know some that have yet to see a buck of any kind and have given up on hunting because of it. For some that can't get a antlerless permit they for what the reason just no luck in the lottery. But also could be the high numbers of antlerless permits that can also effect ones hunting. I have experienced this because the deer were over hunted where I hunt and my good place / property is now just a place that we only see fawns the last 5 years I have only seen 1 antlered Buck the rest have been fawns only no mature does of any kind, even some buttons but again when you are looking for meat small deer are not what I am looking for especially when the cost to process a deer is the same whether it is big or small. 

I just like to big game hunt and whatever the opportunity I am offered in a good shot I take. Might not be the way some think is okay but I have only taken one deer in the last 5 years. so my meat is been out for some time...

But again to each their own as to what they take...

But some are helping as a management tool and taking any deer is what the DNR is after...

Good Luck to all this fall on whatever deer you get a chance to take...

Newaygo1


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## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

Fur-minator - that is not at all what I am saying. That is your opinion of what I am saying. What I mean is if you choose to shoot a young small racked deer dont act like you finally downed the animal of a lifetime. If you shoot a small buck for "meat" then go hunting for the big one you probably wont find him. (hint - he's in your freezer)

I am not the type of bowhunter that goes to the pro shop and buys a bow and has them set it up then goes hunting and takes my deer to a processor and then brings it home and serves it to my family.

I am the type of bowhunter that tunes my own bow, makes my own arrows. Learns my bow inside and out. Shoots it religiously. Sharpens my own broadheads, and yes processes my own deer.

all I am really saying is if a basket rack makes you happy - - GREAT!
but dont wonder where the big boy is. hunt for you, not for the guys at work. I hear it every year. them - Get a deer yet? Me - nope Them - so and so has already got 3. Me - nice Them - yea so and so shot a nice 6 point (4 point whatever)

I hunt for my satisfaction and you should too. If a basket really makes you happy and it remains legal. Go for it. Just dont wonder where all the "big" bucks are.

I have shot plenty of basket racked bucks. They just arnt doing it for me anymore. Does that mean that the neighbor wont shoot him? no. But at least I did my part to accomplish my goals. Not lower my standards just to prove I am a successful hunter to others.

BTW, I dont think it will ever become easy. baskets or monster 150" droptines. The deer always have the edge. It's just impossible to hunt a deer that isnt there.


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

I shot a doe now where the hell is my big buck!!


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## fishnpbr (Dec 2, 2007)

Fred Bear you make a lot of assumptions. You assume everyone that shoots a rag horn wonders where the big bucks are. I don't see it, nor do I see where a hunter that shoots a small buck is doing so to prove he is a successful hunter to the guys at work. Every hunter hunts for their own personal reasons and satisfaction. There is not a single hunter that wouldn't like to shoot big buck. That is a no brainer, but a lot hunters are not driven by big antlers to the point of passing legal deer in hopes of getting the big one. It is just not that important to them. That seems to be completely lost on the antler crowd.


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## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

fishnpbr, you are right. It sure sounded that way. I know it's not every hunter but allot of them in my circle.
if you say , There is not a single hunter that wouldn't like to shoot big buck.

why then are they shooting the "rag horns" ? I dont get it.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

Fred Bear said:


> fishnpbr, you are right. It sure sounded that way. I know it's not every hunter but allot of them in my circle.
> if you say , There is not a single hunter that wouldn't like to shoot big buck.
> 
> why then are they shooting the "rag horns" ? I dont get it.


Because although most people would like to, they also aren't disappointed when they don't. I'd like to own a Ferrari. But I'm not disappointed that I don't and in fact get a lot of pleasure out of owning my truck. Some people are just easier to satisfy while others need more to make them feel complete.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

I posted this last year, but think it applies here too..........

Trophy hunters. LOL
You ask 50 guys that question and you'll get 50 different answers. 
Everytime. All the time.

Note: I'm not talking to any one person here, but typing my thoughts as they come.

What do they do for hunting ?
What don't they do for hunting?

What kind of questions are these ?

Each man or woman that answers this thread is a different type of hunter.
There is no sterotype. How could there be ?
It's like personalities. Each is different and unique.
You can't nail down an instinct, or try to group it.

Why do we have to analyze and pick apart every single aspect of our lives these days ? Is it really that important to someone? Or have they nothing better to do ?
What ever happened to just living ? And being happy just to do that well ?
Everybody making everbody elses business their own....crazy. And annoying, _very annoying._

I'm going to do my best to answer this question.

Am I a trophy hunter ? Yes, I am.
I also have a 90lb. doe hanging in the garage that I need to cut up as soon as I'm done eating lunch.
Is there a contradiction here ? No there's not, tho some might disagree.

Hunting for food and soley for food because of hardship does not hold water.........not anymore. Wagon trains and homesteads have been a thing of the past a long time now. 
Welfare. food stamps, church, etc.etc..etc........ If your going hungry, it's your own fault these days.
Too many handouts........ and organizations willing to hand it out.
Sure, venison helps, been there done that, but to say that without it you'll starve is BS.

So, back to the question that in all honesty I find a bit insulting.

I go to the woods for my own reasons and do not have to justify what those reasons are to anyone. What I'm looking for there, and I'm not talking about animals here, is my own business. 

_Each hunter takes to the woods looking for something that only he knows._

To say that I engage only in a bloodsport or that I'm hurting hunting by taking away from it because of the animals I choose to take is narrowminded and in my opinion, not a very intelligent/informed/thought out stance.

Who is anyone to say what I'm supposed to feel when I decide let loose an arrow.

Who is anyone to say why I decide to kill and what I decide to kill in the first place and then place a label on me. 

I don't kill little bucks anymore, I have no desire to. So, if that makes me a 
" trohpy hunter " so be it. 
I know what I am, and why I am, and that's all that matters to me.
I could care less about any " labels " a total stranger, with no clue as to who I am or what I'm about slaps on me for what I do. I guess i can't say that, cause it ticks me off a little. The sheer arrogence of it all. A person thinking that they can label, sort and file me in a group without knowing what's in this hunters heart is an overbearing assumption in it's purest form.

Every hunter evolves in his own way, wether in skill, mindset or spirtually and will hunt accordingly. Some never evolve at all.

I eat what I kill. I've been hunt'in a long time and I've never, ever seen a guy kill an animal, even if just for the horns where the meat was tossed. Not once.


I do not kill tweety birds or look for " targets " while on stand because I'm bored as I've read before on these boards. 
And speaking of that, some of the things that I've read over the years here have been an abomination to what I consider sacred. 
A blasphmy to the very essence of the wild.

One will argue that what I consider sacred, they consider commercial.
There lies your answer.
Look deep and you'll see it.

Trophys ? What really is a trophy ? That question, as with the original one here cannot be answerd in the definate. Why? Because there's a different answer for every person that steps into the woods.

This hunter ?
I don't go to the woods in search of death, I go in search of life.

Living..........now there's a true prize. One that eludes alot of folks these days. 
__________________


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## Fred Bear (Jan 20, 2000)

very well put.


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## T-Bone0717 (Jul 18, 2007)

deathfromabove said:


> ohhh... oookk... I guess..


Why not? Explain your reasoning? If you are so gung-ho on OBR, why cant you do it yourself?


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Joe Archer said:


> ...do you really think I gave a rat's behind if it were a doe, a spike, or a small-racked buck?


So, what did you get?


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## deathfromabove (Mar 2, 2005)

T-Bone0717 said:


> Why not? Explain your reasoning? If you are so gung-ho on OBR, why cant you do it yourself?


No you explain to me........I filled my freezer last year and this year and never shot a buck..........some DMU areas have few or no permits....would a OBR stop them from putting meat in the freezer.....

Your turn....


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Joe Archer said:


> Some of us are not fortunate to have hunting access to over-populated areas and see 10 - 20 deer each time we venture a few yards off the beaten path. I hunted hard this October. Seeing just one deer was the exception, not the rule. Most days I didn't see a single deer for my 8 hours or so of time spent in the stand. For the month of October, I twice passed up a chance at a 1.5 year old doe that probably would have dressed out at around 75 pounds. Twice I got to see two other adult doe and a fawn pass out of range at 40 yards. THAT'S IT!
> Make no mistake, last weekend I was taking the first decent sized deer that offered me a chance. My hunting time is limited as I just started a new job. I don't have a clue right now on whether or not I will have time to hunt anything more than just one more Saturday and Sunday this November.
> Last Sunday while I was sitting in my tree, I just wanted a deer. As the morning dwindled down, I had already resigned to the fact that this was going to be a deerless year for me.
> When I gave two loud doe bleats in final desparation, and had a 125 pound (dressed) deer trot in from the West; do you really think I gave a rat's behind if it were a doe, a spike, or a small-racked buck? ...... Seriously?
> ...


Joe you make some great points. The more I read these forums, the more I realize that a huge portion of the controversy and polemics are because of huge regional differences in our experiences. It is like Maritans arguing with Venusians.

I just went through my log this morning. In 14 sits I have only not seen deer once (last night in a two hour sit, after observing 10 deer total, 1 doe and 4 bucks in my 4 hour morning sit).

I saw 75 deer in 47 hours of hunting = 1.6 deer per hour. I saw 23 bucks so far = 1 buck every 2 hours--3 of them were probably 3.5 year olds. I saw 22 confirmed adult does = 1:1 ratio of does to bucks. Probably not that good because some unconfirmed sightings are likely adult does.

It is easy for me to pass deer in general and bucks in particular. Not so easy if I am only seeing a deer every few days.

I think if you look at the majority of the contention on this site, it arises from the underlying reality that we are not all hunting the same herd. 

Good post. It really highlights how important geography is in consideration of deer management.


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## T-Bone0717 (Jul 18, 2007)

deathfromabove said:


> No you explain to me........I filled my freezer last year and this year and never shot a buck..........some DMU areas have few or no permits....would a OBR stop them from putting meat in the freezer.....
> 
> Your turn....


You are absolutely right. OBR would not stop them from putting meat in the freezer. My comment was more specified toward the individuals in favor of the OBR....if this is what you beleive in, what reason can one give as to why cant you yourself start implementing the OBR? Who says it has to be law for one to practice this. Practice what you preach right?


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

bioactive said:


> Joe you make some great points. The more I read these forums, the more I realize that a huge portion of the controversy and polemics are because of huge regional differences in our experiences. It is like Maritans arguing with Venusians.
> 
> I just went through my log this morning. In 14 sits I have only not seen deer once (last night in a two hour sit, after observing 10 deer total, 1 doe and 4 bucks in my 4 hour morning sit).
> 
> ...


This is why our state regulations should not be for the entire state. A OBR may work in zone 3 but not zones 1 and 2. Further, antler restrictions may not be good for zone 2, but good for zone 3. The UP already has them in place, time will tell. In DMU's with no antlerless permits, legal bucks are the only fair game for the firearm hunters. Many things to consider. Maybe this is why the state is so hard and fast on not changing the rules. They don't want to muddy the waters?


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

Wow there is alot of posts. Too many for me to read.
So anyway this might of been said.
Shooting small bucks...........
I see no problem with it, until it becomes habitual. I see no reason in over populated areas for one to continue to pass does to kill a 1.5 old buck. The first deer I saw excuse doesn't fly, unless it is Jan. 1 and your first hunt. Tomorrow (or next hunt) is always another day. IMO (remember this is my opinion not a fact) once a hunter can kill a buck every year and they are always 1.5 olds, it is time to up the stakes. Try to become a better hunter, set your goals higher, 2.5 +. Then when the 2.5 old become easy pickens, set the bar a little higher. If you do this and kill the occasional 1.5 then big deal you are doing your best. Go buckless for a few years. Time in the woods is always enjoyable reguardless if you kill a buck or any deer.


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## SNAREMAN (Dec 10, 2006)

If someone wants to become a better hunter,they should take-up trapping and predator calling.


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## fishon-fishoff (Apr 2, 2005)

Where I hunt I don't see that many deer. It's private land and I like the fact I have private land to hunt. I haven't taken that many deer with my bow. Maybe 3 since I started bow hunting. My first deer was a 5 point buck. The only buck I have taken with a bow. I have seen small forks and 4 points on this small piece of property and have passed everytime hoping that others around me will too so they can gain some mass in the next few years. I honestly do not find it that hard to pass on the small ones. I really don't know what the big deal is on passing the smaller bucks!


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

fishon-fishoff said:


> I really don't know what the big deal is on passing the smaller bucks!


Ironically enough, I don't know what the big deal is by not passing them up.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

bucksnbows said:


> Wow there is alot of posts. Too many for me to read.
> So anyway this might of been said.
> Shooting small bucks...........
> I see no problem with it, until it becomes habitual. I see no reason in over populated areas for one to continue to pass does to kill a 1.5 old buck. The first deer I saw excuse doesn't fly, unless it is Jan. 1 and your first hunt. Tomorrow (or next hunt) is always another day. IMO (remember this is my opinion not a fact) once a hunter can kill a buck every year and they are always 1.5 olds, it is time to up the stakes. Try to become a better hunter, set your goals higher, 2.5 +. Then when the 2.5 old become easy pickens, set the bar a little higher. If you do this and kill the occasional 1.5 then big deal you are doing your best. Go buckless for a few years. Time in the woods is always enjoyable reguardless if you kill a buck or any deer.


Why do you want to dictate how we hunt? How about we just hunt by whatever is the legal means? Sounds like an ego problem.


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## CMRM (Jul 31, 2006)

I like venison. 

I hunt in Osecola Co. where, lately, I can only get one antlerless tag.

I have a job, a family, and limited time to spend in the woods.

If I see a "little guy" he's probably headed for my freezer.


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## LOMAZ 2 (Oct 31, 2009)

I completely agree. My Dad taught us any buck was real hunting, even a three inch spike


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## dja05 (Nov 10, 2008)

skipper34 said:


> Why do you want to dictate how we hunt? How about we just hunt by whatever is the legal means? Sounds like an ego problem.


I don't think he said anything as to dictating how anyone hunts. He stated his oponion just the same as you have. He did no finger pointing or belittling. He just threw another option out there for poeple to think about is all.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

Hey, really, would you kill this little guy who walked by my stand tonight at 4:30 P.M.?










If you did, you wouldn't be able to watch him take a long drink from this creek a few minutes later.










I hope to see him again 2 years from now:evil:.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

If I was hunting on your place, no. But I don't hunt on your place. I hunt on public land, where it is senseless to try to do any form of management. That little guy might be the only deer I see within range of a shot. You bet I am going to harvest that animal if given the chance. Many of us don't have the luxury of choosing what animal we take. Count your blessings.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

dja05 said:


> I don't think he said anything as to dictating how anyone hunts. He stated his oponion just the same as you have. He did no finger pointing or belittling. He just threw another option out there for poeple to think about is all.


Did you read the same post that I did? When deer become "easy pickens" it will be time for me to retire the gun and bow. I still don't understand why what I shoot or anyone else shoots has to be criticized as being "too small".


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

skipper34 said:


> Count your blessings.



I do, I do count my blessings.

But I lived through the phenomenon of improvement of bass fishing on public waters between the 70s and the 90s. I truly believe the same thing can be accomplished on public lands with deer hunting. What it takes is a grass roots change in the behavior of the fisherman or hunter. If you don't believe it can happen, it can't.

But if you do believe it can happen, become a member of the QDMA, and start to practice the philosophy, and watch what happens over a 10-15 year period.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

bioactive said:


> I do, I do count my blessings.
> 
> But I lived through the phenomenon of improvement of bass fishing on public waters between the 70s and the 90s. I truly believe the same thing can be accomplished on public lands with deer hunting. What it takes is a grass roots change in the behavior of the fisherman or hunter. If you don't believe it can happen, it can't.
> 
> But if you do believe it can happen, become a member of the QDMA, and start to practice the philosophy, and watch what happens over a 10-15 year period.


Well, if you say so. First of all, I don't have 10-15 years of hunting left. Second, if you really think that the public land hunters are going to just one day all agree to selectively harvest deer on public land, you are kidding yourself. The only way that will happen is with regulation change. And don't hold your breath for that one either. Jim, most public land hunters nowdays are just happy to see a deer, let alone be picky as to what they shoot. Don't misunderstand, I have no qualms as to QDM, it is just that I feel it is a waste of time on public land without the proper regulations to govern it. Heck, we can't even get a concensus of agreement on these forums, let alone a statewide agreement on deer hunting. And this forum constitutes only a small speck compared to our hunting populace. I can tell you one thing for sure, this grassroots change that you talk about will never take place as long as Joe Blow tells Shmaltz what he or she shouldn't shoot, and then belittles Shmaltz for actually shooting it. As long as the regs are the way they are, hunters are going to hunt accordingly. No amount of belittlement will ever change that. I say this, Let the happy hunter remain happy with his or her success, no matter what that may legally be.


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## anonymous7242016 (Aug 16, 2008)

Skipper no one (me) is asking you personally to change or target animals. Like I said it was just my opinion, that is what I did and I couldn't be more happier with my hunting experiences. Yes I have an advantage over the state land hunters. But it can be done.
My brother who only hunts state land has passed on many bucks trying to take an older one, but this season after not killing a deer (not just a buck) in 8 years decided the nice fat spike that came by was not getting the pass card delt to him. Do I look down on him? No, why would I, its not like he does it every year, and if he did I still wouldn't. 
The way I see it some bucks do live to see an older age, not as many as I would like but some do. I enjoy the challenge of trying to kill an older buck more than killing of any legal buck, but thats just me and a few of my friends. http://www.qdma.com/


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