# Harsens Kill Charts



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

craigrh13 said:


> Do you honestly think one guy going in there voicing an opinion that differs from the masses will make a difference? I highly highly doubt it. Especially a new guy that nobody knows. It would fall on deaf ears and everyone knows that.


We all started out as that "one guy" at some point. EXAMPLE - that one guy gets asked to come to a meeting. He starts going to meetings as time permits and listening to the discussion. He also starts attending the work days when he can getting out there and helping with physical labor. He starts helping with annual banquets and raising money. Slowly he meets people, and establishes credibility because he knows the area, and his opinions start to carry some weight. After a while, association officers/members start asking his opinion. Soon, he's asked to run for an officer position, and lo and behold, he's elected to a position. Then the other officers, members, and DNR staff start to count on him to be involved, and to offer ideas and opinons (pro and con), and be an active spokesman on behalf of the area. Time goes on, and as he mentors others to get involved the same way, eventually he feels he can move away from the leadership role, and simply be a member again. 

What I just described is my history at the Shiawassee Flats Association, which all began with an invite from someone who frequents this board (and shall remain nameless). I live 50 minutes from Shiawassee, which isn't terribly far, but it's far enough when you're talking volunteering, and all the miles and gas money that are on you. I didn't say all of that to toot my own horn...just to say that it can be done, if you care enough to make the effort


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

This is why we booked 2 weekends at the motel at shiawassee. No more daily fee means the can focus on quality of the hunt and leave the quantity of the hunters out of the equation.
I don't know how we do it without kill charts and driving 2 1/2 hours with out any scouting.


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## eye-sore (Jan 7, 2012)

If you're not willing to put the time in, and I mean allot of time, and just expect everyone to give out info they worked hard for all season and seasons past to get your going to have a disappointing season. Enough pity party.


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## stackemup (Oct 31, 2011)

Everybody makes time for what they value. I say put your money where your mouth is at and pitch in with the organization that works at our particular bingo. My kids and I drive from South of Grand Rapids to volunteer to cut willows, weed whack the pullovers, and cut down trees. We do this at Shiawassee, not because we want to be in this fictitious "good ole boys club" but because we value the area, and the fun we have hunting together. Don't piss and moan on the internet about something you've never involved yourself in.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

stackemup said:


> Everybody makes time for what they value. I say put your money where your mouth is at and pitch in with the organization that works at our particular bingo. My kids and I drive from South of Grand Rapids to volunteer to cut willows, weed whack the pullovers, and cut down trees. We do this at Shiawassee, not because we want to be in this fictitious "good ole boys club" but because we value the area, and the fun we have hunting together. Don't piss and moan on the internet about something you've never involved yourself in.


Exactly! And don't get me wrong...if you're out there working, or you go to the meetings, and you GET INVOLVED, then of course you make friends, and of course you get better intel on what's going on at any given time. It just comes with the territory. You put in time/effort/expense, then you will get payoffs in a lot of ways  In anything in life, solid information comes with time, trust and friendship. And I'll add that in my many years of volunteering there, I can honestly say I never saw anything shady taking place, like association members pocketing money or anything.


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## deptrai (Feb 14, 2015)

stackemup said:


> Don't piss and moan on the internet about something you've never involved yourself in.


Different people involve themselves to different degrees, but don't forget that everyone who's bought a hunting and/or waterfowl license has involved himself, by supplying part of the money that supports the operations and expenses. Don't get me wrong, I'm deeply grateful for the efforts and contributions of the associations, but it's simply untrue to say that everyone else has contributed absolutely nothing, and I think that is the nature of some peoples' objection to the clubs getting to suggest/set policy.

Also don't get me wrong, I'm not sure if I'm for or against the kill sheets being posted. I just don't think you can have your cake and eat it too, saying "it's not an old boy's / private hunting club" and at the same time, "these guys put in the effort, so they deserve to call the shots." We all contribute to the DNR's operating budget, not to mention historical land acquisition, etc.

It also seems contradictory to say that people fake their kill cards to keep others from knowing where the ducks are being harvested, yet "kill sheets mean nothing, you can't pick a good zone based on them." If the kill sheets are useless, I doubt that hunters would be faking them to try to hide their favorite hot spots.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

deptrai said:


> Different people involve themselves to different degrees, but don't forget that everyone who's bought a hunting and/or waterfowl license has involved himself, by supplying part of the money that supports the operations and expenses. Don't get me wrong, I'm deeply grateful for the efforts and contributions of the associations, but it's simply untrue to say that everyone else has contributed absolutely nothing, and I think that is the nature of some peoples' objection to the clubs getting to suggest/set policy.
> 
> Also don't get me wrong, I'm not sure if I'm for or against the kill sheets being posted. I just don't think you can have your cake and eat it too, saying "it's not an old boy's / private hunting club" and at the same time, "these guys put in the effort, so they deserve to call the shots." We all contribute to the DNR's operating budget, not to mention historical land acquisition, etc.
> 
> It also seems contradictory to say that people fake their kill cards to keep others from knowing where the ducks are being harvested, yet "kill sheets mean nothing, you can't pick a good zone based on them." If the kill sheets are useless, I doubt that hunters would be faking them to try to hide their favorite hot spots.


I pay taxes yet I get no bridge card. Buying a $16 license doesn't account for hardly anything towards that unit. If all waterfowl money (state stamp) went to managed units and was divided equal then you would be giving less than a dollar.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

I'm not sure you were aiming this at me, but I'm going to assume at least part of it was.



deptrai said:


> ...but it's simply untrue to say that everyone else has contributed absolutely nothing...


I didn't say the average hunter contributes nothing. Of course we all do. What I said was "talking on websites like this does nothing" and it truly doesn't. To make a difference, you need to get the people who make the decisions (namely the DNR) to listen to you, and the most effective way to do that is to be part of a voice larger than an individual (i.e. the associations). That's not to say an individual can't get a change made...they can. But the old "strength in numbers" thought applies.



deptrai said:


> ...saying "it's not an old boy's / private hunting club" and at the same time, "these guys put in the effort, so they deserve to call the shots." We all contribute to the DNR's operating budget, not to mention historical land acquisition, etc....


I never said they "deserve to call the shots". I said the associations have a right to ADVISE the DNR. And as I also said, in my experience on the board of Shiawassee, they actually tried MAYBE 50% of the ideas that we brought up.

And again speaking only for the Shiawassee group, you don't need to me a member of that group to come to meetings (although membership is only $10...REALLY, $10 per year). We regularly had individuals come to the meetings and throw out ideas, some of which were tried.


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## deptrai (Feb 14, 2015)

just ducky said:


> I'm not sure you were aiming this at me, but I'm going to assume at least part of it was.


Right, I probably shouldn't have quoted you because I just meant it as a comment on the general tenor of the anti-killsheet faction, which admittedly is a consolidation of multiple comments and not any one person's attitude. And I agree with you that having one's voice heard is better than just complaining on an internet forum, and one good way to have one's voice heard is to join an association, with the added benefit that you'll be helping keep up the areas that we all enjoy.



deadduck365 said:


> Buying a $16 license doesn't account for hardly anything towards that unit.


I'll grant you that the contribution from the purchase of one license is small, but looked at in aggregate, I am fairly certain that the lion's share of the annual operating and capital budgets, historical land acquisition, etc. of those managed areas comes, in one way or another, from the people of the state of Michigan, not the associations.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

Are you guys seriously complaining about the volunteer associations at the managed hunt areas voting on something? The managed areas get resources two ways, from tax dollars AND from volunteer work. Without the volunteers the managed areas wouldn't be what they are. Giving the volunteer groups some sort of say in things IMO helps secure the volunteer base. If you want say in things, go volunteer and participate. 

In any event, do you really think putting the State of Michigan in charge of making decisions like that is better than having a local body, especially a club that volunteers to actually do work around there, make those decisions? IMO the managed hunt areas are way better off with local support and local decision making, keeping Lansing out of it except for the funding. Even if you disagree with one decision they made (which is really sort of a stupid thing to care about anyways), keep in mind the decision making may not always be the greatest, but I can guarantee you it's better than one single government making decisions for all of the managed areas in the state.


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## lastflight (Aug 16, 2005)

I heard a rumor that they had to stop posting kill charts because some guy kept taking pictures of them and posting them on the internet.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Lamarsh said:


> ...IMO the managed hunt areas are way better off with local support and local decision making, keeping Lansing out of it except for the funding....


Well I'll say it again, in my experience on the board at Shiawassee, the DNR actually adopted MAYBE 50% of the suggestions of the group. Don't kid yourself...the DNR (Lansing) still owns/manages/operates these areas. The volunteer groups merely supplement the state with money and manpower mainly for things they either can't physically do, or can't pay for. And by doing that, yes, they have a say in policies and procedures.

I'm staying completely out of the discussion about posting the kill sheets. I have my own opinion, which shall remain my own


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

deptrai said:


> I'll grant you that the contribution from the purchase of one license is small, but looked at in aggregate, I am fairly certain that the lion's share of the annual operating and capital budgets, historical land acquisition, etc. of those managed areas comes, in one way or another, from the people of the state of Michigan, not the associations.


I bet you are incorrect. If you calculate the associations time as a paid by hour as the state would its employees, even at minimum wage the associations have more time and dollars in than tax dollars. The only advantage the state has is that they own the land. I am I. No way saying the state employees are not important or hard working. Without share croppers and the associations, what do you think would look like? Look at many of the state game area and how they have dwindled.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

deadduck365 said:


> I bet you are incorrect. If you calculate the associations time as a paid by hour as the state would its employees, even at minimum wage the associations have more time and dollars in than tax dollars. The only advantage the state has is that they own the land. I am I. No way saying the state employees are not important or hard working. Without share croppers and the associations, what do you think would look like? Look at many of the state game area and how they have dwindled.


It takes teamwork between the state employees and the local groups of volunteers. At Shiawassee, the volunteers are out there all the time in the off-season assisting the farmers and doing other odds and ends. A great example is the Shiawassee volunteers are usually out in the spring with the DNR staff deciding where to place the corn strips and staking it out so the farmer knows where to plant. And if anyone thinks this is not an important issue, placement of the corn strip can be critical to having adequate decoy opening room, and room for the birds to work between units, and between the corn and dikes. And of course the farmer needs to rotate their crop strips around...they don't usually plant them exactly where they were the year before. It's a simple thing, but it really does take some thought.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> One of these days you will get your wishes and these local support associations will say screw it and just fold so they don't have to put up with the whiners. I will guarantee you that impact of that situation will be 100x worse than losing your beloved kill chart.


110%


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Who paid for the added help to keep the doors open for the whole day? What would the kill chart look like had it been a self check in at the field house at the end of the day. Compiling that list takes time. Time better spent elsewhere. Like blklab alluded to; those that strike off to new zones and report kills are rewarded only by others jumping onboard and hitting these zones as well. leaving less of a choice for those that venture out.

Is this the idea behind the kill charts to let someone find zones in out of the way that attract birds without doing the work themselves?

If 10% of hunters kill 90% of the birds. Why should 10% feed info to the 90%?

I know several avid hunters that gave up hunting Harsens for this very reason!

Get out and do your scouting and that includes getting out and looking around for yourself, watching where the birds are moving to and getting there before they do next time!

*NO MORE KILL SHEETS!*


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## stackemup (Oct 31, 2011)

deptrai said:


> Different people involve themselves to different degrees, but don't forget that everyone who's bought a hunting and/or waterfowl license has involved himself, by supplying part of the money that supports the operations and expenses. Don't get me wrong, I'm deeply grateful for the efforts and contributions of the associations, but it's simply untrue to say that everyone else has contributed absolutely nothing, and I think that is the nature of some peoples' objection to the clubs getting to suggest/set policy.
> 
> You validate the quote that you use...I choose to involve myself more, and by doing so have learned more about the area. I don't believe that I did say that everyone else has contributed absolutely nothing?


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

Lamarsh said:


> Are you guys seriously complaining about the volunteer associations at the managed hunt areas voting on something? The managed areas get resources two ways, from tax dollars AND from volunteer work. Without the volunteers the managed areas wouldn't be what they are. Giving the volunteer groups some sort of say in things IMO helps secure the volunteer base. If you want say in things, go volunteer and participate.
> 
> In any event, do you really think putting the State of Michigan in charge of making decisions like that is better than having a local body, especially a club that volunteers to actually do work around there, make those decisions? IMO the managed hunt areas are way better off with local support and local decision making, keeping Lansing out of it except for the funding. Even if you disagree with one decision they made (which is really sort of a stupid thing to care about anyways), keep in mind the decision making may not always be the greatest, but I can guarantee you it's better than one single government making decisions for all of the managed areas in the state.


I agree with everything you said except when they vote on something having their own interest in mind, not caring about general public. was told by couple of the members that one reason for voting not to post kill chart was because when hunting is good more people show up and less chances for them to get a good draw.


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## QuackCocaine (Nov 14, 2010)

fsamie1 said:


> I agree with everything you said except when they vote on something having their own interest in mind, not caring about general public. was told by couple of the members that one reason for voting not to post kill chart was because when hunting is good more people show up and less chances for them to get a good draw.


I believe that's how these things work.
They spend time and money helping out the DNR at Harsens. In return the DNR listens to and considers requests/advice from said group. Why would they continue to donate time and money if their voices fell upon deaf ears? It's a give and take that, in my opinion, is being balanced very well between the two groups.


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## daakota (Jan 17, 2006)

Well I am in this so called club of good ole boys and heres the straight poop. The DNR came to us and asked our opinion of this matter and we voted on it. an yes we voted it away. There are aprox 140 members It was a close vote but be it as it may ours is only a recommendation not a hard fast rule. In the end the DNR has the last vote an there reson was to make all the areas the same an it was happening anyway. You can be a member for only 15 a year or 30 for three then theres the lifetime for 100 pretty cheap in my book.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

fsamie1 said:


> I do not know about Shiawassee but know a lot about Harsens. There will be always a few people who do not bring their ducks to check station or report false numbers or have their buddy in a bad zone to report it to mislead people. I am sure majority of people are honest and report their kill. We should not change regulations just for a few bad apples. Total kill numbers from many years ranges from 7000 to 12000 and I can tell you they are accurate. So, I do not buy you argument that a few people giving false kill number will change the total too much.


yer an idiot. sorry.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Good lord....


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

goosehunter31 said:


> Cracks me up, this year no kill sheets were posted, we have had fewer ducks in the refuge but more ducks have been killed we were 200 birds above the average after sunday, so...


 So it might be possible that the annual harvest might trend upward which would be better for all off us .I guess if I don't get some ducks I can blame the members, then I can blame the farmer the firewood guy ,or the guy on a motorcycle why I can't get a deer.oh ya almost forgot it's the dogs fault I didn't get that rooster.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

deadduck365 said:


> They are not posted so how you going to? Bet these good ole boys get to sneak in the office before the draw and see the kill charts will be you next accusation.


They do not have to sneak in bud. they work behind the counter helping with draw sometimes.


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

birdhntr said:


> So it might be possible that the annual harvest might trend upward which would be better for all off us .I guess if I don't get some ducks I can blame the members, then I can blame the farmer the firewood guy ,or the guy on a motorcycle why I can't get a deer.oh ya almost forgot it's the dogs fault I didn't get that rooster.


How many times should I say this? IT IS NOT ABOUT HOW MANY DUCKS WE GET. It is about freedom of expression, people voting in that meeting are not representative of all Michigan duck hunters. Thus, they should not vote for rest of us for a state run place. They can vote as much as they want for their internal organization business but not anything that affects those of us that are not members. Again, IT IS NOT ABOUT HOW MANY DUCKS WE GET


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

Ever wonder who turned in the results and how many shots it took to get there? Kill sheet shows 9 birds by 2 hunters in 4 hrs. 12 shots fired. Next spot has 4 hunters and kill 18 birds in 4 hrs. but 60 shots fired. Clearly not all shots connected. The second spot presented more opportunities but same number of birds harvested per hunter. How about the zone with 60 shots taken by 4 hunters and 0 birds reported? Certainly had some shooting!

Which is the best spot?


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## fsamie1 (Mar 8, 2008)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yer an idiot. sorry.


I guess I can become smart really fast if I agree with you. But, sorry, you are wrong and your reason has no merit. By the way, I still like most of your postings and regularly read them. Do not know why some of you make this a personal issue rather than a civilized discussion.


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## deadduck365 (Nov 5, 2010)

fsamie1 said:


> I guess I can become smart really fast if I agree with you. But, sorry, you are wrong and your reason has no merit. By the way, I still like most of your postings and regularly read them. Do not know why some of you make this a personal issue rather than a civilized discussion.


Call it like you see it. You are acting like an idiot.


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## B-Gage (Oct 18, 2015)

Hunted at Harsens this afternoon. Only 16 parties and we got a good draw. Decided to check out an area we had never hunted (only been going there 2 years). Learned a lot about that area and the best spots to be, and not to be. Gained way more by exploring a new zone than a kill chart would have given us. 
No idea how a rational person could claim the purpose of removing kill sheets is to reduce demand for duck hunting at Harsens Island. Read an Economics 101 book and familiarize yourself with the simple laws of supply and demand and you'll see why that is such a preposterous idea.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

fsamie1 said:


> They do not have to sneak in bud. they work behind the counter helping with draw sometimes.


Okay I have to get in the discussion now....there are times in the past at Shiawassee when association members have helped behind the counter for the draw, and it wasn't so they could get inside info, or some preference in the draw. It was because of a lack of manpower on the part of the DNR. It hasn't been that way up there in several years, but there were times when one of us would be behind the counter helping, and would ANNOUNCE to the crowd why we were there, AND that we were in the draw just like everyone else. And it was simply to get the draw done in a timely manner so that EVERYONE could get out and hunt sooner. So again, you're making assumptions about why something is happening, without solid justification. Not going to call anyone names, but you have become so blind to opposing thoughts (even though there have been many rational thoughts offered) that you need to just let this go and move on.


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## Lurker (Jan 25, 2009)

fsamie1 said:


> How many times should I say this? IT IS NOT ABOUT HOW MANY DUCKS WE GET. It is about freedom of expression, people voting in that meeting are not representative of all Michigan duck hunters. Thus, they should not vote for rest of us for a state run place. They can vote as much as they want for their internal organization business but not anything that affects those of us that are not members. Again, IT IS NOT ABOUT HOW MANY DUCKS WE GET


 news flash.... people make decisions all the time for others that sit on the sidelines and don't get involved. and instead of heading to Pt. Moulie head north to Fish Point. They still have kill charts and you can still use robo's. I don't remember.... did you also complain about the use of robo's being discontinued?


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

I can't believe I just read this whole thread. 30 minutes of my life I'll never get back.


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## Dead Bird (Oct 2, 2001)

this has become none value added


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