# Woodcock Moving Down???



## Remy (Feb 13, 2008)

What do you guys think, Woodcock hunting in the Northern Lower going to be hit by the flights over the next couple of weekends? Just thinking what you thought?


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## coverdog (Dec 7, 2003)

It's getting to be the right time of year that I see heavier movement.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Full moon on the 14th


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## Fox (Nov 21, 2007)

The week of the 20th there'll be birds all over. I say that because I'll be in ND that week ( I know poor me). The last few years the weekend I get back there's chalk all over the covers and not a woodcock to be found.
Fox


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

We were in some known "flight bird" covers Saturday, and, as far as we could tell, the bog suckers in there were all natives.

NB


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## rector piscator (Jun 12, 2008)

This past weekend we seemed to have bumped into some flight birds in Emmet Co. 8 birds between 3 guys in about 3 hours. Numerous others missed. Next day was a heavy rain, but got in about an hour w/ 4 flushes, and 2 more for the bag.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

I hunted a new cover in zone 2 with a friend who mentioned that the woodcock flushes at that spot were significantly higher than he had seen there earlier in the year. I don't think it'll be long before they start showing up in zone 3...


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## dlbaldwin01 (Jan 12, 2008)

Hunted this weekend near houghton lake, and flushed 7 Saturday, ended up with 3. My shooting may have been slightly off. Dad came up on Sunday and we flushed 10 and ended up with 5, our shooting again really left a lot to be desired. Not sure if the flights are starting or not but the next couple weekends should get nothing but better.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I highly doubt that there are flight birds yet. Will birds move into some different covers and get congregated? Yes, but I doubt they are on the move yet. I think flights are more of a trickle than a flood. I have hunted way north in late October to Mid November and found plenty of woodcock to shoot.


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## MallardMaster (Nov 17, 2003)

My hunting party actually bumped 2 Woodies in Allegan this past weekend. I doubt that this is any indication of migration. They need to stay in the UP for another 8 days till I can do my part on population control.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

I ran into some flighties Sunday a.m. in the Norhtern Lower.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I've seen huge flights the first weekend of October that came down in front of early snowstorms in the UP...we've had days with dozens of flushes in six inches of wet, sloppy snow. 

I think we might have had a small push of birds Friday and Saturday with the cold temps, but no where near a "flight"...weather has not been unstable enough yet. 

At least, I sure HOPE that wasn't a flight. With what seems like fewer birds every year, it's getting harder and harder to tell.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Resident bird numbers are so elevated this year it will be difficult to decipher when flight birds roll in unless my covers absolutely get covered up with them.
Also I don't think weather in the U.P. is poor enough yet to start pushing birds south.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

I moved 38 woodcock last weekend...and they've been there pretty much in those numbers for the last 2 weeks. 
I'm with 2ESRGR8...it will be difficult to tell when these birds leave and the flights are coming down (unless there are some obvious behavior differences)


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Either you guys are putting up dozens of birds a day in EVERY cover, or you weren't out there 30 years ago...in those days, there was NEVER any doubt when the flights were in, it was easy to tell. They were EVERYWHERE.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Linda G. said:


> Either you guys are putting up dozens of birds a day in EVERY cover, or you weren't out there 30 years ago...in those days, there was NEVER any doubt when the flights were in, it was easy to tell. They were EVERYWHERE.


 Now it seems like woodcock are in woodcock spots and not grouse cover.
My comments refer to my doodles spots, covers where I expect to find doodles. I have couple spots where I expect to move 6 to 8 birds an hour, is 8 to 10 considered flight numbers? or is it just a better day? I don't know. 
Last year I think I hit one day of flighties. I walked into one of my grouse covers in late October and moved 16 woodcock in 45 minutes. Just walked the dog out of there, it was almost frustrating.


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## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

The flights have already started. We have been killing flight birds in the NLP since last thursday and noticed more birds each morning until the wind switched on monday afternoon. Flushed two this morning in southern mi while working one of my dogs in an area that only gets flight birds.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

I have been running the same covers for months trying to get the dogs in shape for SoDak and the bird nimbers have elevated significantly in the past 10 days, so I don't think resident birds have much to so with it. I am talking about the Northern 2/3rds of the L.P. North of 55 East of 75. This area always gets early comers/late goers so it should stick for a while. Flush rates went on woodies from about 3.2 per hour to 9.8 flushes per hour. Mainly tag stands with woodcock only.


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

This warm weather will keep them around.


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## TrophyLine (Oct 5, 2007)

Seems like we are getting some birds on the move now. My southern covers, which typically produce a meager wc or two are now filling up with wc in my grouse runs and rather quickly. Still not sure if these are natives moving south or flight birds, but I do know I will be heading north this weekend in hopes of finding many more with the CanAir label on the breast.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

dogwhistle said:


> this is probably how the plains indians felt as they watched the decline in the buffalo.


Wow, that's quite the forecast!

I been hunting with guys who say they've seen more woodcock in the past two seasons than in any of the previous 35.

I'm pretty new to this, so I can't really come to my own conclusion. It's just strange how different peoples' perceptions and experiences can be so different!

KW


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

35 years ago very few people even knew what a woodcock was, much less bothered to hunt for them. Most people concentrated on grouse, because there was so many of them. It's only been in the last 20 years or so that we've begun keying in on woodcock.

And I firmly believe that a spring storm in early April of 07 stopped a lot of migrating woodcock in their tracks...in southern and mid-Michigan. They stayed, nested, and raised their young there. Hence the large numbers last year and this year in that part of Michigan-if those birds were hatched there, then they returned there again this past spring-and nested there...lots of birds in southern and mid-Michigan, not so many anymore up here. Not to mention that our numbers up here had already been in decline for decades from a loss of habitat, as dogwhistle says. 

And that's probably why you're getting the comments you're getting. I am not, repeat, NOT seeing the woodcock I used to see, and imho, it's been a decent season-for now. But still not even close to what it was years ago.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Linda G. said:


> 35 years ago very few people even knew what a woodcock was, much less bothered to hunt for them. Most people concentrated on grouse, because there was so many of them. It's only been in the last 20 years or so that we've begun keying in on woodcock.


 And pheasants don't forget. 
My mentors tell me that they have seen the woodcock hunter pressure increase significantly along with the decline of the pheasant in Michigan.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

And I firmly believe that a spring storm in early April of 07 stopped a lot of migrating woodcock in their tracks...in southern and mid-Michigan. They stayed, nested, and raised their young there. Hence the large numbers last year and this year in that part of Michigan-if those birds were hatched there, then they returned there again this past spring-and nested there...lots of birds in southern and mid-Michigan

I would have to agree with your statement Linda from the numbers of birds in my training areas I usally only find a few birds andthan flight birds but the last two years there has been a high number of birds


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

In fact, the decline in pheasants probably had more of an effect than the decline of grouse on hunters keying in on woodcock...I just forget, since we don't have any pheasants at all up here.

I'm not real happy about so many woodcock piling up in mid and southern Michigan...where a lot more people hunt than up north or in the UP...I think it could have even more of a detrimental effect on the populations. We are hunting a declining population, not an excess, so we DO have an effect on the populations overall...


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

hunting didnt cause the decline of pheasants in southern michigan and it isnt causing the decline of grouse or woodcock, either.

if that 1% aspen cutting held true over the last twenty years, then we lost 46% of our habitat aged aspen over the past twenty years. look around, aspen stands on state forest are fewer and fewer, smaller and smaller and getting older by the day.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

No, hunting hasn't caused the decline of these species. But when it comes to woodcock, hunting is one of the contributing factors to their continued decline...you can't hunt a declining population without having SOME effect on it in a negative way...and that's something we all need to admit, inclduing the USFWS. The latest mortality study showed that clearly. We aren't harvesting the "extra" birds any more-every one of them is needed. 

Did anyone hunt the UP last weekend? I'm still trying to find out what's going on up there.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Recently, I've been carrying a blank pistol more than a shotgun when going after the little worm eaters with my puppy.


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## BarryPatch (Jul 21, 2004)

Coyotes + Turkeys = a lot less pheasants. Throw in changing ag practices and the fact that everyone has a brush hog and they disappear.

There are a lot of year round woodcock in my area. I don't have the historical perspective, but according to my farmer they have been around for many years. The blueberry farmers tend to put up quite a few in July and August when the crops come in. They invariably flush two or three in my six acre field.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> Recently, I've been carrying a blank pistol more than a shotgun when going after the little worm eaters with my puppy.


Not surprisingly, I've never shot a Woodcock or eaten one in my life (look at where I'm from). Band Tailed Pigeon, sure, but nothing smaller.

Doesn't seem like there would be a lot of meat on a Woodcock, but they would appear to be a good bird to train a dog on at any rate.


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Not surprisingly, I've never shot a Woodcock or eaten one in my life (look at where I'm from). Band Tailed Pigeon, sure, but nothing smaller.
> 
> Doesn't seem like there would be a lot of meat on a Woodcock, but they would appear to be a good bird to train a dog on at any rate.


I take a few here and there for breakfast. Bacon, Eggs and Woodcock cooked rare. Great camp feast. Don't worry there are still birds far North of us. I was on the phone with air trafic control the other day. He said he would do his best to get them on their way. :lol:


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## milmo1 (Nov 9, 2005)

I don't really buy into the storm theory. These birds have made their way for eons. There have likely been numerous storms and unexpected weather that has stopped them various places. Mother nature adapts. Just as it would adapt to repopulating an area such as the NLP. Habitat is key. 
I also know (through a contact) of someone who did a PHD thesis on the effect of hunting pressure on the doodles. The area around the western U.P. was shut down to woodcock hunting (no town named on pupose - if you remember the shutdown you know where I am referring to) for a year or two. Results of the research: hunting has little to no effect on the population. Within reason, I trust the findings.
Pigeon River was named earlier. I was there this past weekend with dismal flushes. Also visited some of my old favorites, just to find they were just that: OLD. I am not as senior as some here, but I remember the first time we hunted the Pigeon. First stop we made was off a main road. It was about 1988. My dad and I thought we were on a preserve hunt. Every other step there went another bird. We had no dog and tons of action. Every season that hunt is fondly mentioned.
Habitat is key, *if we cut it, they will come*.


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## BarryPatch (Jul 21, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Not surprisingly, I've never shot a Woodcock or eaten one in my life (look at where I'm from). Band Tailed Pigeon, sure, but nothing smaller.
> 
> Doesn't seem like there would be a lot of meat on a Woodcock, but they would appear to be a good bird to train a dog on at any rate.


They're quail sized. You've never shot a quail?


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Woodcock are a strange bird from a culinary perspective: Cook them thoroughly and they're like tough liver. Rare to medium rare on the grill, and they taste like steak (to me and the people with whom I've eaten them anyway). I consider 3 or 4 to a person plus a couple of side dishes a meal.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I have no doubt about Mother Nature, I'm sure you're right. 

But how long have we been tracking woodcock to see this happen in the past...not very long. There's birds here this year, or there were, and those nested, I'm sure. So, give it time, and the populations up here will come back to some degree, as I'm sure they have in the past after storms. 

But I do believe this happened last year, so do a lot of other people, and we all also believe this has probably happened in the past. We just weren't aware of it, that's all. That also explains the sudden surge in numbers in the Houghton Lake, West Branch, Clare and Gladwin areas. 

I have lots and lots of young cuts to hunt, thanks to an astute forester friend who is also an avid upland gamebird hunter. The birds still weren't here last year...this year was better, but still not what we had just two years ago. Much less what we had thirty years ago. 

I haven't hunted the PR for years, primarily because it gets too much hunting traffic. Same with the UP. 

If you have the results of the USFWS's three year mortality study, I'd appreciate it if you'd share them with us, and show us all just exactly where it says that hunting did not have an effect on mortality...I'm talking about the most recent mortality study, finished just a couple of years ago. Not the studies done in the 70's and 80's.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

This is really only my second season of bringing home birds. Most of my doodles, I've tossed into a stew-pot instead of beef or venison. The way they cook up, you'd never know the difference. I've been using a stew recipe that has Guinness as the main ingredient.

My wife is going to make a batch of woodcock-burgundy over noodles this week. Again, it's a beef recipe we're adapting.

FTB's been beating the grill'em drum, so I'm going to try that next. I'll probably wrap a few in bacon, as that seems to be everyone's go-to, but I'm thinking KABOBs! I'm going to do a mixed batch of grouse and woodies (white meat for the ladies, red meat for the gents!), with various peppers, onions, zucchini, tomatoes... mmm, mmm, mmm I'm getting hungry!

Not a lot of meat, but the perfect size to toss on a skewer!

KW


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## bombcast (Sep 16, 2003)

There's almost no woodcock cover in PRC. We hunted in and mostly around it this past weekend, and indeed it gets older and older every year. Been hunting it at least a little but every year since 1990. The reality is it has become a poor choice for good upland hunting, other than a handful out of the way places.

The state forest lands surrounding it are hands down better choices for both grouse and woodcock, and generally see fewer hunters.

It's amazing how many Indiana and Ohio-plated dog trailers you still see there.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

BarryPatch said:


> They're quail sized. You've never shot a quail?


Nope. That's not a western Washington bird really. East of the mountains is another story.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> ...FTB's been beating the grill'em drum, so I'm going to try that next. I'll probably wrap a few in bacon, as that seems to be everyone's go-to, but I'm thinking KABOBs! I'm going to do a mixed batch of grouse and woodies (white meat for the ladies, red meat for the gents!), with various peppers, onions, zucchini, tomatoes... mmm, mmm, mmm I'm getting hungry!KW...


Go rare and you won't be disappointed!


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

milmo1 said:


> I don't really buy into the storm theory. These birds have made their way for eons. There have likely been numerous storms and unexpected weather that has stopped them various places. Mother nature adapts. Just as it would adapt to repopulating an area such as the NLP. Habitat is key.
> I also know (through a contact) of someone who did a PHD thesis on the effect of hunting pressure on the doodles. The area around the western U.P. was shut down to woodcock hunting (no town named on pupose - if you remember the shutdown you know where I am referring to) for a year or two. Results of the research: hunting has little to no effect on the population. Within reason, I trust the findings.
> Pigeon River was named earlier. I was there this past weekend with dismal flushes. Also visited some of my old favorites, just to find they were just that: OLD. I am not as senior as some here, but I remember the first time we hunted the Pigeon. First stop we made was off a main road. It was about 1988. My dad and I thought we were on a preserve hunt. Every other step there went another bird. We had no dog and tons of action. Every season that hunt is fondly mentioned.
> Habitat is key, *if we cut it, they will come*.


that pretty much describes it, especially the last season. it's particuarly true of the pigeon river with many restrictions on cutting aspen. doesnt make a lot of sense as aspen is also primary browse for elk in winter. i've seem public complaints of elk moving out of the pigeon and i certainly see less sign and animals than i once did. even an elk crossing sign on I75 north of vanderbilt.

i know the guy that cut most of the habitat you orignally saw. he had a crew of guys and they cut a lot of it. now it's under the influence of preservationist and the dnr only cuts aspen for profit and very little of that.

it's concentrated in the Pigeon but it's happening on all state forest. i saw the gradual decline of the pheasant population and now i'm seeing it with grouse and woodcock. the pigeon was never the best grouse area, but i used to flush 15-25 birds a day (grouse) and could guarantee 20 woodcock any day with peaks of 40-50. and in a large number of covers.

i may day hunt it a llittle next year or for 3-4 days max as at certain times in certain covers i can still do well. but i'm moving on to other areas and other covers for the bulk of my hunting.

guys might think it cant happen in their area, but it will. i recall when we were in the top 5 pheasant states. we didnt think it could happen to pheasants then either. and i bet most people on this board cant even remember when we had an open sharptail season.


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## milmo1 (Nov 9, 2005)

Linda G. said:


> But I do believe this happened last year, so do a lot of other people, and we all also believe this has probably happened in the past. We just weren't aware of it, that's all. That also explains the sudden surge in numbers in the Houghton Lake, West Branch, Clare and Gladwin areas.
> 
> 
> I haven't hunted the PR for years, primarily because it gets too much hunting traffic. Same with the UP.
> ...


Linda, 
I believe you are right, and a storm may have diverted the woodies, for now. As far as a surge in numbers around mid-state, that's somewhat debatable. A friend's father has hunted woodcock in the Clare area for 30 years. He kills in a season what takes me 4-5 seasons. His friends average about the same numbers. He retired from hunting about 2 years ago when his last dog was put down, so I don't know if the trend continues...
As far as the study, I don't have that info at hand. I spoke with someone who did her thesis on the subject. She happened to be temporarily helping on a charter I was on, before she shipped out to Alaska. I would like to see study results also.

As far as doodle as table fare, they can be awesome. I usually make a cardio-sandwich. I pan fry bacon. Then sear the doodle breasts in the grease. Butter 2 pieces of squishy white bread, lay the bacon and breasts on it, cover with the other piece of bread. Devour! The key is nearly rare doodle.


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## billya (Jun 7, 2001)

Dogwhistle is right on. Michigan has more woodcock and grouse breeding habitat than any other state in our country including Canada. But our decline is due to non clear cutting aspen on public land. There is a link on the DNR website that accepts opionions regarding how to manage certain parcels of state land. These are called "COMPARTMENT REVIEWS" I urge every upland bird hunters to put in their two cents. Do a search and you will find the links. 

Without clearcutting aspen we will have a decline of grouse and woodcock for ever.

BY THE WAY MOST PEOPLE GIVING OPIONIONS ON HOW TO MANAGE A COMPARTMENT REVIEW ARE ANTI-HUNTERS, SO THEY SAY NO CUTTING.....

It is very easy to email the DNR regarding this.


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## Unregistered4 (Dec 11, 2004)

*Forest Management Unit Date Start Time Location Unit Manager Phone*​*Gaylord 7/23/08 9:00 AM Tuscarora Twp. Hall *​Joyce Angel-Ling 989-732-3541​
*Pigeon River 8/20/08 9:00 AM Pigeon River Headquarters *​Laurel Marzolo 989-983-4101​
*Escanaba 10/1/08 9:30 AM U.P. State Fair Grounds, DNR Pocket Park *​Eric Thompson 906-786-2354​
*Crystal Falls 10/6/08 8:30 AM, CST Crystal Falls Township Hall *​Steve Milford 906-875-6622​
*Roscommon 10/8/08 9:00 AM Roscommon OSC *​Steve Anderson 989-275-4622​
*Sault Ste. Marie 10/10/08 9:00 AM Quality Inn, St. Ignace *​Pat Hallfrisch 906-635-5281​
*Baraga 10/15/08 9:00 AM Alberta, MI - Ford Forestry Center *​Don Mankee 906-353-6651​
*Atlanta 10/16/08 9:00 AM Lewiston Library *​Laurel Marzolo 989-785-4251​
*Grayling 11/6/08 9:00 AM Grayling Field Office *​Susan Thiel 989-348-6371​
*Gwinn 11/7/08 9:00 AM NMU University Center - Superior Room *​Bill Brondyke 906-346-9201​
*Cadillac 12/4/08 9:30 AM Cadillac Public Library *​Bill Sterrett 231-775-9727​
*Traverse City 12/11/08 9:00 AM East Bay Town Hall *​Dave Lemmien 231-922-5280​
*Traverse City - Kalkaska 12/10/08 9:00 AM; **Stone House, 419 S. Coral Street, Kalkaska -**Fireside room *​Dave Lemmien 231-922-5280​
*Gladwin 12/16/08 9:30 AM Riverwalk, Gladwin *​Courtney Borgondy 989-426-9205​
*Newberry 12/17/08 9:00 AM Newberry Correctional Facility *​Les Homan 906-293-3293​
*Shingleton 12/18/08 9:00 AM Munising Twp. Hall *​Jeff Stampfly 906-452-6227​


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## oilcan (Feb 10, 2007)

Yeah they have been moving down for a couple of weeks! and I ate alot of them.


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

oilcan said:


> Yeah they have been moving down for a couple of weeks! and I ate alot of them.


Hey! Save some for the rest of us! 

On another note, I just purchased the Dogtra 2502 based on your recommendation. Hopefully there will still be a few left this weeekend. 

You guys going up?


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

billya said:


> Dogwhistle is right on. Michigan has more woodcock and grouse breeding habitat than any other state in our country including Canada. But our decline is due to non clear cutting aspen on public land. There is a link on the DNR website that accepts opionions regarding how to manage certain parcels of state land. These are called "COMPARTMENT REVIEWS" I urge every upland bird hunters to put in their two cents. Do a search and you will find the links.
> 
> Without clearcutting aspen we will have a decline of grouse and woodcock for ever.
> 
> ...


i dont know that we have more habitat than any other state. but we have a lot. and to repeat myself- it's growing old, beynd it's attractiveness to grouse or woodcock at a rate of 2.3% per year. or 23% every 10 years is being lost to aging.

compartement reviews are a subject of amusment to me. sending an email opinion is about as useful as sending an email to the white house regarding your opinion on the iraq war.

the post following yours, lists the dates and times of those compartment reviews. with possibly some exception they are on wednesday mornings at approximatly 9-9:30. the most inconvenient time and day for any working man. why do you suppose that is?

and they are all held in northern michigan and upper peninsula locations. ? so a working person would have to take one or two days off from work to attend. and all but a small fraction of the population lives in the southern third.

folks, this is what beauracracies do when they want to give the appearance of being responsive to the public without actually doing so. and they write huge reports justifying their actions when a few good farmers with crews would be far more effecient and effective. in fact, that is how much of the old cover was created.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

dogwhistle said:


> ...a few good farmers with crews would be far more effecient and effective. in fact, that is how much of the old cover was created.


I'm pretty sure there're a few good farmers kicking around this site, dogwhistle. Sounds like you're lookin to put together a posse! Now, I'm no farmer, but if you're getting something organized, count me in!

KW


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## milmo1 (Nov 9, 2005)

Dogwhistle-
I think most folks on this board are interested and/or concerned with our habitat "opportunity". Any suggestions? What can some motivated working stiffs do?


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

i'm not looking for a "posse" just some hands on activity. something that doesnt involve months or years of meetings and reams of paperwork with very little to show for it.

any person that can manage the complexities of a medium to large farm, can certainly manage a stand of aspen. with crops you have to decide what type of crops to plant and where/when, what type of seed, fertilizer, herbicide or tilling methods, when to harvest and be able to show a profit. aspen is cut when it reaches maturity and it voluntarily "reseeds" itself from the roots. cut it, then stand back and watch it regrow. it's analagous to cutting alfalfa without the weather factor, or even mowing the lawn. that's a little simplistic, but it's what we did for a long time with excellent results.

regarding how to make it happen; preservationist groups are very proactive, politically and sometimes in the judicial system. that's the way all our government operates; business groups vs labor, enviromental groups vs those that want to tap our natural resources. the list is very long. if hunters want to influence a beauracy, an arm of the government, they have to increase their numbers(as the NRA did a number of years ago) and unify to gain facts( how many knew we only cut 1% of aspen per year until i published it here?) and bring political pressure to bear even using the courts when necessary. that's the rules of the ballgame. he who plays best and hardest wins.

i dont think that will ever happen. my own gameplan is to go elsewhere where there are a different set of rules. in other words, to do what my ancestors did when social change affected them adversely- move on.

mike


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

I hate to keep beating the drum. But I will.

Out west farmers and environmentalists have started to work together to battle rampant development of land as they know that strip malls and houses do nothing but wreck the surrounding landscape and are a threat to farms if left unchecked (i.e.-waste water from those places is a bad thing). Hunters are also involved as they see habitat disappearing.

The argument being made here is an environmental one whether we like that or not. As I see it, the argument should be less about hunting and more about the animals it helps (not just grouse and woodcock). The environmental groups are well funded by people who care about animals in the forest. It would be wise to find common ground and make a sound argument for clear cutting. Getting red in the face and calling them commies won't help. Pointing out the wildlife that would benefit does. They truck wild salmon in tankers down past the dams on the Columbia River every year to try and ensure some survive to go out to sea instead of getting chewed up in the turbines. I don't see small amounts of clear cutting being any different. But you need facts and lots of them from a wide range of groups.

You also need a well funded advertising campaign to get the public (not just hunters, we're in the minority now guys) thinking about it. 

Goshawks eat grouse when they can. An increase in habitat would seem to benefit them and they are also on the decline due to diminishing habitat currently. Arguments like that, I think, would go a long way if presented to the public properly. Working behind the scenes just doesn't work. The effort needs to be brought front and center in a way that urbanites who think the outdoors is the city park can understand and relate to. Otherwise the cause is lost.

My .02.


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## milmo1 (Nov 9, 2005)

WestCoastHunter said:


> The effort needs to be brought front and center in a way that urbanites who think the outdoors is the city park can understand and relate to.


_That_ is the head on the nail. Those tree huggers that drive Range Rovers on asphalt only - those are the opinions that need to be swayed. It can be done. Time to start looking into those avenues...


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

dogwhistle said:


> if hunters want to influence a beauracy, an arm of the government, they have to increase their numbers(as the NRA did a number of years ago) and unify to gain facts( how many knew we only cut 1% of aspen per year until i published it here?) and bring political pressure to bear even using the courts when necessary. that's the rules of the ballgame. he who plays best and hardest wins.


Sounds like a pretty good reason to get active in the Ruffed Grouse Society.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

BradU20 said:


> Sounds like a pretty good reason to get active in the Ruffed Grouse Society.


After long deliberation (ok, perhaps "procrastination" is a better word for it!) I "got active" with RGS a few months ago. Went to the website, filled out a form, cut them a check, and waited. A few weeks later, an envelope arrived with a membership card and a sticker for my car.

Such has been the extent of my activity in RGS, and the extent of their call upon my membership.

I'm not rich (quite the contrary in fact) but I have a strong back and a propensity for words and communication. I'm willing to go cut trees, write letters to legislators, talk to neighbors, etc., but is anyone organizing these types of initiatives?

KW


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

k9wernet said:


> After long deliberation (ok, perhaps "procrastination" is a better word for it!) I "got active" with RGS a few months ago. Went to the website, filled out a form, cut them a check, and waited. A few weeks later, and envelope arrived with a membership card and a sticker for my car.
> 
> Such has been the extent of my activity in RGS, and the extent of their call upon my membership.
> 
> ...


That's so awesome I can barely stand it. Sounds like my experience with Pheasants Forever.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

k9wernet said:


> Such has been the extent of my activity in RGS, and the extent of their call upon my membership.
> 
> I'm not rich (quite the contrary in fact) but I have a strong back and a propensity for words and communication. I'm willing to go cut trees, write letters to legislators, talk to neighbors, etc., but is anyone organizing these types of initiatives?
> 
> KW


This is something I, and other members of our chapter have been discussing. 
The only way to really get involved is to pursue your local chapter on your own and let them know you want to help. 

It should be automatic when you sign up.... you get sent that packet, why can't it include the contact numbers for local members? 
Why can't the local chapter's board be notified of a new member?


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## everlast1 (Nov 9, 2006)

Dont mean to rain on the parade but a bunch of guys running around with chainsaws will accomplish very little. The whole business of fooling with timber on a large scale needs to be left to the people that know the business. First time some volunteer gets seriously dead goodbye RGS. With workmens comp at $50/100 RGS wont be paying anyone to cut either. The only way to get anywhere is lobby the state and feds just like the sierra club and all the rest of the tree huggin, landrover lovin, dipshit hippies do and its gonna take money. When someone figures it out please let me know.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

BradU20 said:


> This is something I, and other members of our chapter have been discussing.
> The only way to really get involved is to pursue your local chapter on your own and let them know you want to help.
> 
> It should be automatic when you sign up.... you get sent that packet, why can't it include the contact numbers for local members?
> Why can't the local chapter's board be notified of a new member?


Well, I don't know if I would get behind my name and number going out to anyone who signs up with the Lansing chapter. However, a short, bulleted list of local initiatives that comes with the packet would be nice.

I have been on the local chapter's email list for the last year or so, and I think that's a great way to organize people. Unfortunately, most of those emails have been invitations to participate in raffles and banquets (see above in reference to my ability to purchase raffle tickets). There has been one habitat project that I know of, and I had a conflict with the date.

KW


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

everlast1 said:


> The only way to get anywhere is lobby the state and feds just like the sierra club and all the rest of the tree huggin, landrover lovin, dipshit hippies do and its gonna take money. When someone figures it out please let me know.


This isn't a logging company versus the Sierra Club issue. Until everyone acknowledges that the mission of the RGS is really a tree hugger issue of sorts (come on, we're talking about habitat enhancement and restoration for wild animals guys) and that maybe it should look to work with groups like the Sierra Club through well reasoned arguments and research, I don't see the issue getting fixed. A unified front between both groups would force politicians of both parties to do something. Stay divided and the cause most likely fails, or at least it will remain under fire and in limbo...in which case it still fails. 

I also firmly believe that this is something where the issue needs to be brought to the public's attention. But like I said, it needs to be presented with improved hunting as a byproduct, not as the intent. I don't see saying that we want to chop down some trees so we can shoot more birds flying too well with every grocery getter driving mom and dad out there in the burbs. The expanded list of species that would benefit from clear cuts would need to be presented and how/why this is so as well. 

A lot of city dwellers have no idea how a forest works, but they know it needs to be there for wild animals to exist and they like that. Informing the public about the fact that forests also need to be managed properly for things to flourish wouldn't be the worst thing that could be done.


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I also firmly believe that this is something where the issue needs to be brought to the public's attention. But like I said, it needs to be presented with improved hunting as a byproduct, not as the intent.The expanded list of species that would benefit from clear cuts would need to be presented and how/why this is so as well.


No need to hide.... 
This is the only way we are going to see anything productive accomplished.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

Are the Woodcock moving down???


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