# Pointing Lab Pup Training Help



## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

I just got my first pointing lab pup in March from NorthStar Kennels in MN. Great dog, great lines. I hope to train this dog myself and my only experience is with my 11-year old GSP. My dog is 5 1/2 months old. They are both indoor dogs and around kids/family 24/7.

My question for those with pointing labs: How/when do I get this dog to point? I've read Julie's book. I've got Gary Buy's DVD's from Poudre River Gundogs for Lab specific stuff. I've got George Hickox's stuff and old Gun Dog/Game Dog/Waterdog DVD's that aren't geared specifically to this breed. My pup doesn't show any "flash" point. He looks like he's "about" to point on birds, but wants to rush/catch them. I've got Johnny House quail and pigeons that I work with him, and he's got crazy bird drive and wants to hunt/chase/catch birds. My mistake is that my quail aren't strong flyers (they were only about 10 weeks old when he started), and he's caught 2 already. I try to let him hunt them up after the first flush and he does TOO well where he's found and pinned quail in thick brush where I took the check cord off him. Gary Buys teaches pigeon pole and "training" the point with whoa training (opposite what Julie likes to do in her book). My dog's obedience is great and he kennels, whoas, heels, sits, so the pigeon pole and "trained point" may work for him, but doesn't seem natural. His litter mate that Troy is working with at Northstar is pointing, so I know he has the genes, but I fear his experience with birds has taught him he can catch them if he's persistant and fast enough. I want to try the Higgins method with my pigeons as another avenue? My pigeons are just old enough to start homing back, so I can launch a few now.

Second question: collar conditioning is something I want to start soon so I can enforce commands better. So far he's responded great to rewards for commands, but hasn't felt pressure other than a pull on the collar. I was starting out to see where his response level is, and he's so soft that the lowest setting on my Tri-tronics made him yipe. I may try just a tone next, but will wait awhile before turning the collar back on anytime soon. Too young? Continue no-pressure training? Need something where I don't always have to be connected with a rope to give pressure and need to start introducing more pressure to his training rather than just rewards.

Third question: How much retrieve training should I be pushing in an upland lab. This dog will probably spend equal time duck hunting. He does well with a few retrieves daily, has seen water and retrieved in water, and is learning hand signals well (started these with the treats/paper plates method as a pup). I was trying to concentrate more on the birds than the retrieving so far, but don't know how hard to push this aspect of a lab at this age. He hasn't had any blind retrieves and not much retrieving outdoors other than the backyard (no bumpers in anything thicker than my food plots).

Inputs? Suggestions? Ideas? All welcome. 

Thanks


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## stndpenguin (May 19, 2010)

You talk about a puppy without any pictures?!?

Hopefully the lab guys show up to help you out on this thread before the "others" do. At 5 1/2 and already doing quite a bit id say you're on the right track for sure.


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

https://picasaweb.google.com/PhamFamily4/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCK-X_oLU_rCAPg#


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

I wish I could help you, but I've been so focused on the retriever stuff that I haven't learned enough about the upland training aspects. My advice is to call Dale at HRK or Frank F. aka Paco on here.

As for the collar conditioning. My advice is to wait until you work out the pointing thing first. A couple of reasons. 1. Proper use of the collar in my opinion is critical. ie proper timing, duration, intensity, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something. 2. If you're working birds and your dog is confused as to what's expected and then is nicked at the wrong time near a bird you can set your training back a ways. On the retriever side collar conditioning is after formal obedience and formal obedience starts typically when they start teething (roughly 6 months). I think it might be a little too early for CC, make sure your basic obedience is rock solid before CC'ing. Basic OB requires pressure so the dog knows that's not what you want. If you can take your dog and do basic ob around distractions like fields with smells, other dogs, parks you'll see how good or bad your OB is.

I think it'd be a good idea to keep the retrieves up, but not too many. I think Dale wants his dog to see a field and think "BIRDS!" and not "When are you going to throw something?" Not to be a d!ck, but you're far far way from running blinds with hand signals. There's a lot of steps to go through to get to cold blinds. Julies book doesn't go deep enough on this. Look at Mike Lardy's program for a training flow chart and you'll see a lot of steps there. Another popular program is Smartwork by Evan Graham.

My opinion (which ain't worth much) is that with a PL you have to walk a fine line between the bird finding stuff and the retriever stuff. You have to kind of work one thing at a time regardless of upland or retriever stuff, but always keep both things in mind when training.

Dale is a busy guy, but really knows his stuff. Frank isn't as busy and knows his stuff, but loves to talk dog stuff.


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

Yes, I would love to hear from Dale or Paco. I was on the verge of getting a HRK pup if it wasn't for better timing for me with an early spring pup.

To clarify: I don't ever intend to turn the collar on for upland work at all this year. I want to start some "pressure" reinforcement beyond just a collar/lead for basic OB in the house/yard. I keep all yard work separate from field (bird) work so the dog doesn't risk ANY negative input in the field. Just wondering when to start some collar pressure for the OB work (not FIELD work) in the house/yard.

I definitely know I'm a long ways from started with retrieving, but wondered how much should I spend doing that vs. OB vs. upland/field/bird work.

Balance is what I would like and also don't want to overdo one thing that may hamper the other (does OB work and Retrieving hurt bringing out the pointing). My big thing that would make me feel a ton better is seeing some "point" develop without having to "train" it to happen. My GSP pointed from 7 weeks, so it's a different animal for me with the lab. 

For what it's worth, this lab is fun, trainable, and well mannered pup that's already great as a pet. I really enjoy working with the dog myself and could send it to a trainer, but feel I get a better bond with the dog doing the training as much as possible myself. Not looking for a trial dog, just a good hunting partner.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

Well ?...I'm going to throw you a curve, I can only relay my experience, and my suggestion is to go the opposite way you are going. I've had three labs, not pointing labs, heck they didn't have that breed when I got my first.

I've been all about Pheasant's and Ducks all of my life, mainly pheasants !
So that's what I started my labs on ..."Birds"...well then here comes ducks !
You think I could make those dogs sit still and be quiet ?....Sure, if I wanted to sound like the marsh idiot yelling at his dog at 5am and ticking everyone else off around me.
So a dog that get "Used" to getting out of the vehicle, running and gunning, just doesn't want to sit still and be quiet. And both of them were very well trained, commands three different ways etc.

So now I'm on my third lab and she's all ducks.....I just started messing around with birds last year and this year she put up some little ones/accident type thing. So there's my experience.....I'll "Never" do birds first...ducks , retrieving, "Then" birds....Good luck.....


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS (Jan 13, 2006)

Independence over control to start. Control is trained and if your dog is not obediant later it is your fault. You want a upland dog you gotta let him go and figure things out on his own. If poor flying birds are all you have you need to find better birds. I normaly don t sweat a few caught birds with a pup if the trade off is more hunting drive. I break all my dogs to teach manners, I don t care about point to start just building prey drive, sometimes its 5 birds sometomes it 100's. Train your dog like a bird dog and if its got enough talent it will work out, later train em like a retriever and if he's got it he ll be that too. Too many things to discuss in one post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

I've browsed the APLA forums and pretty much took that away as the message.....bird drive first, and if the birds flush enough it'll teach them to point. Dale reiterates that in old posts as well as above and the same message from Frank's posts and same message Troy told me....get the dog crazy on birds and if he can't catch them he'll point them. He's definitely crazy and will hunt the brush until they're flushed or he catches one....unfortunately he's too good at wearing them down with flush, follow, reflush, and hunt them til they're too tired to get away from him...unless I check cord him all the time.

I don't think a dog with "too much bird drive" will make a howling mad dog in the duck blind from what I've experience over other people's dogs. 

I guess birds first, retrieve later. Still don't have it figured out on developing the point yet, but still waiting for the dog to mature into it. Any other tips? Higgins method of bird releasers?


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

If you want a dog that points you should have bought a pointing dog. 

JK


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Yep, that sounds about right. Take a breed that is known for it's bird drive to flush birds. Give it more birds to bring out that pray drive. Then try and turn around and swim up stream and try and make it point. I don't understand how some people can take a animal that has been bred for decades to flush, then try and go against the grain an make it point. If you must do this with a FLUSHER teach it whoa as you would teach a good lab sit. Then whoa it around game as you would tell a good FLUSHER to sit around game.By doing this he will whoa his self around game, you can smile cause you will mistake this for pointing. Pointing Labs, what next attack poodles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

Man, I thought the whole QDMA thing was divisive when it ran these forums 10 years ago. It looks like pointing labs are the thing to flame in these threads now.

Don't think I didn't pick my breed without lots of time spent, research, and hunting over lots of dog breeds. I know what I have and I know what to expect.

Now, I'm looking for input from those with knowledge in PERSONALLY training a POINTING lab......Frank, Dale, the Carts, etc.

I have a GSP, so don't think I don't know what a pointing breed is. I chose this lab for a reason, and I'm looking to make the most of my dog, which I feel has the most potential for me as a hunting partner.

Thanks, and lets keep this constructive.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

TSPham said:


> I've browsed the APLA forums and pretty much took that away as the message.....bird drive first, and if the birds flush enough it'll teach them to point. Dale reiterates that in old posts as well as above and the same message from Frank's posts and same message Troy told me....get the dog crazy on birds and if he can't catch them he'll point them. He's definitely crazy and will hunt the brush until they're flushed or he catches one....unfortunately he's too good at wearing them down with flush, follow, reflush, and hunt them til they're too tired to get away from him...unless I check cord him all the time.
> 
> I don't think a dog with "too much bird drive" will make a howling mad dog in the duck blind from what I've experience over other people's dogs.
> 
> I guess birds first, retrieve later. Still don't have it figured out on developing the point yet, but still waiting for the dog to mature into it. Any other tips? Higgins method of bird releasers?


Well ?...Good luck to you, my dogs were great dogs and smart, it was just the high pitched whine that drove me nuts. If the dog is in the field or in the water handling is key. You can introduce that pup to water any time you wish.... One very important issue I neglected to mention. You go ahead and train that dog on birds, but when it comes to retrieving waterfowl ? Whoooole new ballgame there. "Big" difference in dry feathers versus wet oily ones. I had one hell of a time getting my sons lab to even pick one up after being trained on birds. So just keep that in mind, because sooner or later your going to encounter that problem.

And one more little tid bit, you send that dog on a goose retrieve when she's not ready for it ? She may not ever pick up or attempt to pick one up again. If a big goose slaps her alongside the head that could very well scare her........so good luck to ya, I hope you fair well !


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

Thanks for the tips Mike. I'll have to save a few ducks and geese carcasses. He loves the goose and duck wings from last winter, but I don't have any whole body birds. It'll be mainly puddle ducks and woodies until the late season (one of the reasons I wanted a lab and not another GSP). I know not to have him encounter any big pheasants or geese until he's big/mature enough to handle them. Any tips for steadying in the blind? I'm just hoping enough bird exposure and exposure to different situations will help him adjust to hunting (training out of a boat, blind, etc).


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Any body hunting house cats on here, they stand there game as long as a pointing lab. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kwas (Nov 17, 2007)

junebug said:


> Any body hunting house cats on here, they stand there game as long as a pointing lab. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh and them house cats retrieve as good as your pointing dogs Junebug, you should get one it's as close to pu_-y as you will get...ha


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

kwas said:


> Oh and them house cats retrieve as good as your pointing dogs Junebug, you should get one it's as close to pu_-y as you will get...ha


Why don't you tell evertbody what those ditch pigs have to do to get that pointing title on there pedigree. We all can use a laugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Judges are to allow for all styles of point. To establish point the dog must become motionless in a standing position (movement of the head or tail is allowed). The dog must clearly establish point on its own prior to any type of command or signal given by the handler. The dog must remain on point for a minimum of five (5) seconds. Only after the judge has started the five second count may the handler give a quiet, non-intimidating, steadying command. The dog may reposition itself while on point, but upon re-establishing point, a new five (5) second count will begin. Repositioning which results in a staunch point indicating that the dog has confidence in bird location will not lower scores. A bird must be produced from the point for the point to be scored. Creeping on point or willful flushing of birds, unless commanded to flush, will result in a lower pointing score. Birds that are determined by the judges to be running that are flushed within gun range will not lower the dogs pointing score. The dog should search, locate and point as many of the birds as possible in the Upland
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

5 Hole seconds. LMAO!!!!!! I can teach my setters to retrieve, they were bred to point. You must hunt those labs 20yrds in front of you, so you can make it there before the 5sec is up. I've worked with 14 labs from Hunter's Point not impressed. Great flushers though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I've seen lots of traditional pointing breeds that hardly pointed too. With that said, I have nothing to add to the ops post as I don't know how many contacts it takes to see if there is any pointing instinct our not. Sounds to me like a nice start to a rough shooting dog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

TSPham said:


> Thanks for the tips Mike. I'll have to save a few ducks and geese carcasses. He loves the goose and duck wings from last winter, but I don't have any whole body birds. It'll be mainly puddle ducks and woodies until the late season (one of the reasons I wanted a lab and not another GSP). I know not to have him encounter any big pheasants or geese until he's big/mature enough to handle them. Any tips for steadying in the blind? I'm just hoping enough bird exposure and exposure to different situations will help him adjust to hunting (training out of a boat, blind, etc).


You can freeze some whole birds, they will keep for a long time. Knowing your dog will be key to when to send him after the big ones. Confidence is a biggy.
Send him when geese are hurt bad, a body shot goose is the ones I'm speaking of, the ones that will put up a fight. Keep him at a heel until you can take care of business, then send him. 
Steady in the blind will be different for every type of situation, meaning how you hunt, where etc. A boat, dog stand in the marsh, corn field layout ? There all different. Having him under control is key, providing him the ability to see is another biggy. The more I tried to conceal mine the more problems I had. She wants to see the bird, she would actually stand on her hind legs to watch the bird circle when she was concealed all the way around. Which in turn cost me the bird. So now I provide an opening to she can see, and I now stand alongside her and a hand touch gets her attention to stay still......the first few hand touches were just a tad more than a touch if you get my drift......lol
Exposure, experience, and confidence take time, there's going to be mistakes, that's a given. Provide him with situations that bring out confidence, make things simple at first. Don't send him on a 100yd blind when he's not ready etc. You want a partner for a very long time so give him the time and effort to succeed........


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not a pointing lab trainer but I would think you should train to the style hunting you are going to do first any dog can be taught to retrieve. I would think u would focus on the field work first then the force retrieve when the field is done. 

if u want to flush over and over until it points get some pigeon launchers from lion country. I would get 3 to 5. then everytime it makes scent launch the bird. if he has any pointing instinct it will start pointing on scent

other wise teach it whoa in stead of sit and start whoa ing it into a "point"


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## HRKPOINTINGLABS (Jan 13, 2006)

Junnie
You have evaluated 14 dogs from the same place, you have an opinion of one kennel. I bet if I evaluated the same dogs we would agree, but that doesn t change the fact that you are an ass.


To the orignal poster , mine and Franks email address s are not secret. Try that route next time less likely to get sidetracked
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

Thanks, Dale, for the offer. Unfortunately, these public forums are abused and wasted by some. I've used the "search" option to read lots of old threads and digest lots of old posts and highly value input from those who take the high road and chose to offer input.

Unfortunately, I've noticed lots of "flaming" on these threads that waste the purpose of any valuable information.

It's amazing how a few bad apples can turn an informational forum into their opinion page and waste any input from anyone (or in the future, a newbie searching for answers).

I'll be contacting those who offer input personally...and unfortunately other newbies or browsers will not get anything from this thread except the slanted views of a few who want to detract from any learning/sharing.

Perhaps I should have phrased it "I've got this generic dog that I want to work on developing.....".

I've loved michigan-sportsman for info on other topics (habitat management, etc), but unless we take it on ourselves to make it useful, it can be a rant for those who feel like they need to express themselves in a way that is completely useless to the thread....and pretty immature for an adult forum. Sorry to see it turned into this....starting to look like high school kids instead of adults.


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## Black Angus (Dec 26, 2009)

As usual Dale, you are spot on. I checked back on some of junebugs previous posts and he is definately an *****


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

This is why someone needs to let Labs that point run against other breeds, so we can all "bring our dogs to the line."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Truth is what truth is. I already told you (if you would read my previous posts) that you have to train that dog to point. Don't ramp him up by letting him catch and chase birds. You may find that the flushing ancestors in him will come to the surface if you keep allowing him to catch birds...unless he is part pointer, then roll the dice. I'm not going to tell you a pointing lab is the best thing going nor am I going to tell you that a GSP is the best dog for duck hunting. I don't believe in man taking perfect breeds of dogs and trying to turn them into something their not. This is how breeds get destroyed. There is a goof in Reading crossing labs with setters, calling them set-a-doors. Soon some moron will have one with bogus papers and everybody will call it a pointing lab but in reality, it's just a mutt. I'm sorry if my opinion of your "alleged" pointing labs isn't as high as you feel it should be but my opinion of flushing pointers isn't either. My whole life I've heard how great a lab was at pheasant hunting because they flushed. Now everybody wants/expects them to point as well. Just seems like a bit of a double standard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

HRKPOINTINGLABS said:


> Junnie
> You have evaluated 14 dogs from the same place, you have an opinion of one kennel. I bet if I evaluated the same dogs we would agree, but that doesn t change the fact that you are an ass.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm an @ss, you goof balls are trying to use a chainsaw to cut oak trim. It doesn't work. So your lab can stand his game. A cat can do that, big deal. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. You can call me what you want it still isn't going to change the view of those that own real pointing dogs. And that's what bothers you guys the most. You know your labs are the blunt of all jokes in the pointer world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Steelheadfred said:


> This is why someone needs to let Labs that point run against other breeds, so we can all "bring our dogs to the line."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


RGS fun hunts. If you want to hear a story about a pointer going head to head with a pointing lab, let me know.

KW


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## stndpenguin (May 19, 2010)

Just out of curiousity june, do you google search the term "pointing lab" and phish around the net waiting to pounce on somebody with an idea that you cant stand?












=D


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## Paco (Dec 18, 2006)

TSPham, I am choosing more and more to not use this forum for discussing training questions like you posed. You should check out the APLA training forum, probably not near as many bugs.
I have been putting the ignore list to use for the first time ever on any forum, so some can feel they have accomplished something. It really is too bad that some adults can't get over not making the little league team or whatever it was that happened to them and makes them seek constant affirmation , but after all that sure helps drive the internet I guess. Strange thing being so insecure, I sometimes wonder how that must feel, but I always had more than enough security, especially about the dogs....

No need to prove or defend here.
No desire or need to go head to head with any pointer, setter, or versatile either (or compete at all for that matter) grew up with some fine shorthairs, heck I think they are all great.
I own what I choose to and enjoy them, as others should there choice.... 


Having a bit of fun here - - - up all night HEX time regards, Paco

PS : Hint to some PL owners, you too are a bit emotional, and don't need to defend what you happen to like to hunt with and own. They ain't pointers or setters or even continental / versatiles. They are Labs thru and thru, that is enough (at least for me).


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

junebug said:


> Truth is what truth is. I already told you (if you would read my previous posts) that you have to train that dog to point. Don't ramp him up by letting him catch and chase birds. You may find that the flushing ancestors in him will come to the surface if you keep allowing him to catch birds...unless he is part pointer, then roll the dice. I'm not going to tell you a pointing lab is the best thing going nor am I going to tell you that a GSP is the best dog for duck hunting. I don't believe in man taking perfect breeds of dogs and trying to turn them into something their not. This is how breeds get destroyed. There is a goof in Reading crossing labs with setters, calling them set-a-doors. Soon some moron will have one with bogus papers and everybody will call it a pointing lab but in reality, it's just a mutt. I'm sorry if my opinion of your "alleged" pointing labs isn't as high as you feel it should be but my opinion of flushing pointers isn't either. My whole life I've heard how great a lab was at pheasant hunting because they flushed. Now everybody wants/expects them to point as well. Just seems like a bit of a double standard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jeez Dude layoff the Monster drinks and get even just remotely educated. First in the Master APLA I'm pretty sure it's a min of 10 sec. One of my dog's run he held the point for around three minutes because the judges were bickering on whether or not he met the 10 second rule because he repositioned. I had to get there attention to have them count his current point/postion.

Second my dog comes from a very respected lab breeder and has Lean Mac in the title. So let me get this straight; you're either calling my breeder a liar or my dog's a mutt? Uh...ok whatever. You remind me of the guy I overheard at a hunt test not too long ago spouting off that the occasional white spot on a labs chest was from breeding with setters. Never mind that's it pretty much widely acknowleged that it comes from the St. John's water dog. Ignorance is just that.

Third, you give me just about any traditional pointing breed and I bet I could turn it into a flusher without much trouble. How? Easy, let it catch birds just like pretty much any dog out there.

The one thing does amaze me though are the number of people in the world willing to tell someone they're wrong for no other reason other than to hear they're own voice.


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

k9wernet said:


> RGS fun hunts. If you want to hear a story about a pointer going head to head with a pointing lab, let me know.
> 
> KW


Open it up to dogs with titles and I'll be your Huckleberry. And I don't even hunt the dang things. Plan on it sometime soon though.

I'm editing this. You open that venue up to dogs with titles and I'll pay Frank's entry fee and feed him because I'll be there watching so what's another meal on top of mine.


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Somebody please tell me the advantage to having a lab that points. Really, why is it better than a regular lab. And if you want a pointing dog why not buy one. If I want a hammer I buy one I don't use a brick. So what makes these things so great. Because I love a lab in the duck blind and ditch hunting pheasants. So please what is the benefit of a lab that points. Opposed to one that doesn't or your run of the mill pointing breed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Socks said:


> Jeez Dude layoff the Monster drinks and get even just remotely educated. First in the Master APLA I'm pretty sure it's a min of 10 sec. One of my dog's run he held the point for around three minutes because the judges were bickering on whether or not he met the 10 second rule because he repositioned. I had to get there attention to have them count his current point/postion.
> 
> Second my dog comes from a very respected lab breeder and has Lean Mac in the title. So let me get this straight; you're either calling my breeder a liar or my dog's a mutt? Uh...ok whatever. You remind me of the guy I overheard at a hunt test not too long ago spouting off that the occasional white spot on a labs chest was from breeding with setters. Never mind that's it pretty much widely acknowleged that it comes from the St. John's water dog. Ignorance is just that.
> 
> ...


You would probably or have already bought a silver lab. Enjoy the white on your over bred strain of lab. Educate yourself on the genetic faults of over breeding before you bump your gums about the white on your lab. For a long time AKC would not reconize these dogs. But now they do because so many have this problem. It is a fault just like silver. By a book and read. And I never called anybodies dog a mutt, I was referring to a dog that is half setter and half lab. By AKC standards that is a mutt. And I would not waste my time at a hunt test, like watching paint dry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## junebug (Sep 25, 2008)

Socks said:


> Open it up to dogs with titles and I'll be your Huckleberry. And I don't even hunt the dang things. Plan on it sometime soon though.
> 
> I'm editing this. You open that venue up to dogs with titles and I'll pay Frank's entry fee and feed him because I'll be there watching so what's another meal on top of mine.


You think that title matters. Ok it's open to dogs with titles. Now we will make it 50 acres 7 birds, 20min, two dogs in the field at same time. Hope your lab backs. He with most birds at the end wins. Oh and the dog has to stay there once point is established and bird is flushed by handler or it doesn't count. Now who's my Huckleberry? Oh, no e-collars.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Juney, bring your dog to the line, there are at the end if the year some really good dogs.

Pointing labs fit the niche for hunters that want supierior retrieving work for waterfowl and pheasants, at times ruffed grouse, but also enjoy a point in the uplands. If you can't appreciate the exceptional talent it takes to be a non slip retriever then also produce in the uplands with independant search, well fine. These folks also want the legendary nose, temperment, brains that labs have and have made them the drug, war, bomb, eye dogs of choice. I recently met a bomb lab through my work, pretty amazing animal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Socks said:


> Open it up to dogs with titles and I'll be your Huckleberry. And I don't even hunt the dang things. Plan on it sometime soon though.
> 
> I'm editing this. You open that venue up to dogs with titles and I'll pay Frank's entry fee and feed him because I'll be there watching so what's another meal on top of mine.


Bring them! You can still run the lakeshore rgs chapter(and probably the rest) but if the dog has the titles that exceeds the fun trial the dog will not have there score kept but true dog people will be able to recognize a good dog
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

TSPham said:


> My question for those with pointing labs: How/when do I get this dog to point? I've read Julie's book. I've got Gary Buy's DVD's from Poudre River Gundogs for Lab specific stuff. I've got George Hickox's stuff and old Gun Dog/Game Dog/Waterdog DVD's that aren't geared specifically to this breed. My pup doesn't show any "flash" point. He looks like he's "about" to point on birds, but wants to rush/catch them. I've got Johnny House quail and pigeons that I work with him, and he's got crazy bird drive and wants to hunt/chase/catch birds. My mistake is that my quail aren't strong flyers (they were only about 10 weeks old when he started), and he's caught 2 already. I try to let him hunt them up after the first flush and he does TOO well where he's found and pinned quail in thick brush where I took the check cord off him. Gary Buys teaches pigeon pole and "training" the point with whoa training (opposite what Julie likes to do in her book). My dog's obedience is great and he kennels, whoas, heels, sits, so the pigeon pole and "trained point" may work for him, but doesn't seem natural. His litter mate that Troy is working with at Northstar is pointing, so I know he has the genes, but I fear his experience with birds has taught him he can catch them if he's persistant and fast enough. I want to try the Higgins method with my pigeons as another avenue? My pigeons are just old enough to start homing back, so I can launch a few now.
> 
> Thanks


My first suggestion would be to stop and get some older birds or let this batch grow-up. Don't feel bad. Training with poor birds is a very common mistake. If you get new birds you will need to let them become accustomed to your JH for a couple weeks. Even then, when you start with older birds they will be less inclined to recall. I would keep these birds but put them out almost every day. Don't chase them off for the first week and then amke them fly after they are well conditioned to returning.

I have never developed a PL so I don't know if they have the same tendencies as "traditional" pointing breeds. We generally start on liberated birds and quit by the time they are 5-5 1/2 months old. Some of them get the the idea they can catch liberated birds no matter how good the birds are flight conditioned. This is fine with older dogs but at this age we are purely developing instinct, not training.

The age thing aside, I think your best bet is to get your birds flight conditioned. Don't start again until there is little chance the dog can catch the birds. Launchers can help once a good bird intro is completed but I prefer a more natural situation. Make sure you enlist the help of someone experienced using launchers. The set-up and timing makes quite a bit of difference in the effectiveness of using launchers.

I would not push any of these man-made situation too far. Start putting the dog into broods of grouse or pheasants in August. AND, when hunting season starts, don't make the mistake of shooting any birds the dog does not handle properly. If he/she moves before you get in front to flush a bird you need to let the bird go. This specific mistakes is the reason alot of pointing dogs never become all that reliable around game.


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

Thanks Scott. Finally some constructive pointers. I'm in contact with Dale and Frank. Still hoping to do this myself, but may send the pup off while it's still young to get it's full potential developed right.


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

junebug said:


> You would probably or have already bought a silver lab. Enjoy the white on your over bred strain of lab. Educate yourself on the genetic faults of over breeding before you bump your gums about the white on your lab. For a long time AKC would not reconize these dogs. But now they do because so many have this problem. It is a fault just like silver. By a book and read. And I never called anybodies dog a mutt, I was referring to a dog that is half setter and half lab. By AKC standards that is a mutt. And I would not waste my time at a hunt test, like watching paint dry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ha ha!:lol: If the silver lab can do the work and is from a proven line I'll take it and let the dog's work speak for itself. As for genetic faults chocolates used to be culled because of "Genetic faults". Funny, the high point dog a year or two ago was a chocolate. Wow I bet the owner of that dog really wishes they had a black lab. Hell dude there's a lot of things that AKC doesn't recognize for right and wrong.

Yeah sometime a hunt test can be dry; but sometimes, and hopefully it's the dog you're running, just smokes it and it's fun to see a dog do that. Not too many meat dogs can keep up with a hunt test dog that has hunting experience.

"There is a goof in Reading crossing labs with setters, calling them set-a-doors. Soon some moron will have one with bogus papers and everybody will call it a pointing lab but in reality, it's just a mutt."

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: The Michigan Sportsman Forums - Reply to Topic http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3704086#ixzz1QTwVrTa8

In reality you basically did call my dog a mutt because he does point and is a lab, but you're equating all pointing labs with an unreputable breeder. 

Here's the point you're missing. Most of the pointing labs I know are trained up to high levels for duck hunting and upland. They're labs that point, not pointers that are labs.


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