# The real deal on age



## calhoun

Ive been wanting to start a thread like this for a long time, this will be a thread that over time I will continually add pictures to. I’ve ran trailcams year round for over 15 years on the same section, I’m covering around 1000 acres with my cameras and with help from many neighbors close to 10000 acres total.
Anybody that knows me, will testify this is a passion for me. Killing them has taken a back seat to truly growing them to maturity. We all see deer labeled with different age classes attached to them, but for the most part these are educated guess! I’ve had deer aged by tooth wear and cementum aged, both methods have their inaccuracies. I was determined to figure out how old these deer really are that we were killing. I have a a lab top detacated to only trailcam pics. I would say I have over 30,000 pictures saved, sounds crazy, but this is how I really starting tracking deer from year to year.
In 2012 we got hit hard by EHD and a large portion of are age class was wiped out. This was the key to really starting to figure out the age. Going into 2013 we had very few bucks live to post season, between the hunting season and EHD.
I believe I had maybe 7-8 bucks post season. Only one I believed to be a 2yold, the rest were classic 1 1/2 yolds.
During that following preseason I was surprised by how nice some of the bucks were. Got me thinking, how the hell do I have all these nice bucks when there was nothing left, well those are all 2 yolds dummy! So that’s when I really started trying to find 1 1/2 yolds with marks that I could prove were 2 yolds the following year. This is what I’ll start with in this thread. Bare with me, with time I will keep adding pics. I can tell you with out doubt, we over age the majority of the bucks we kill!
First buck as 1 1/2 yold has a small cut in his left ear, next 2 pics as a 2 yold. He did live through the season but died in late winter after he shed his antlers. I found both sheds from him rough gross score of the sheds 104”.


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## calhoun

Next up is your classic spike!


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## Liver and Onions

Your name is calhoun and you're from Monroe. The land is in...........? Should be interesting.

L & O


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## calhoun

This buck does not have any markings but I believe this is him at





















1 1/2, positive it’s him as 2 and 3


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## calhoun

Liver and Onions said:


> Your name is calhoun and you're from Monroe. The land is in...........? Should be interesting.
> 
> L & O


Sorry I thought the name would give it away! Lol


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## calhoun

Very impressive growth, hit by a car as 2 yold.


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## calhoun

This buck has been a lot of fun to track!
He’s also been through a lot. In 2017 he had some kind of growth on his brisket.
During that winter it slowly went away, in 2018 he broke off his right main beam which with the help of a neighbor I was able to locate.


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## calhoun

This is his broken antler next to his 2 1/2 yold shed. He broke his extra brow tine on that side first then broke the hole main off. 
I never found his other side in 17 but I would guess he was around 100-110” as a 2 yold. If I double his 2018 rack he would be close to 140” he had 18” main as a 2 yold and went to just under 24” as a 3 yold!


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## William H Bonney

I don't buy it, start markin' 'em with a paint ball gun. :evil:


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## calhoun

I like your thinking! Different color for each year!


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## cakebaker

This is cool. I had a buck I named Jordan I first seen him at 1.5 find my hinged bedding area. Seen him at 2.5 and also found half his shed that winter. Shot him at 3.5 was a nice rack. Now I wish I would've let him go to 4.5 because I knew he was a home buck.


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## sniper

I also run numerous cams on 154 acres..I would turn myself inside out trying to track 1.5 yr olds..I would bet last year I had pics of 60-70 different 1.5 yr old bucks..Between archery and the guns seasons I passed over 30 yearling bucks...Im sure a bunch of these bucks were on my cams..I don't start tracking pics and sightings until a buck is 2.5 unless a 1.5 yr really sticks out..This year I had no 1.5 yr olds that I would consider noteworthy..3.5 and older were numerous and that's when it gets interesting..I admire your organization though..

Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Tilden Hunter

I thought this was going to be another "it sucks to get old" thread.


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## 12970

This Rare that a Few Have Such Access and Can Allow To Pass / Let Them Grow... For me I have been using Cams since they were 35 MM Cams and paying for "Film Processing" Back the only 2 Cams and they were not Cheap... I have NEVER seen a Buck from 1 year to the Next as the OP Talks About... I also run many Cams 24/7 and I get more Bucks using Black Flash Cams but never seen one from 1 year till the Next no way to ID them to Really Be Sure And Have Pasted on many Small Bucks but one can never Know if Last Years Spike, 4 Point or Even 6 Because of the "Potential" Growth a Buck "Could" Have so really no Way To Actually Know One Buck is The Same Buck from Year To Year. But Again most rarely Have Access to maybe 120 Acres much less 40! And With "Hunting Pressure" You Never Can Track a Buck from Year To Year. Glad the OP Can If that is really Possible But It is RARE as Most that Pass have Bucks Taken because of the Small Parcels they Hunt and with Public Lands and then the "Buck Dispersal" Issue... So This is again RARE... I had this Buck 3 years ago He had a Sticker Point in Niv you could See and THE Best Buck I Had back in 2016... NEVER Saw Him AGain Like majority of Big Bucks You Get Images One Year But NEVER The NEXT, If I can Find the Night Image with the Sticker Point I will Post It!
But It IS VERY *Rare* You Can Track Bucks Year To Year / And Know It is The *SAME Buck*!!!
Neaygo1


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## DecoySlayer

William H Bonney said:


> I don't buy it, start markin' 'em with a paint ball gun. :evil:



It should be a law. ALL male fawns should be color coded at birth. Then, you can list what year it becomes legal to shoot which color.


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## otcarcher

calhoun said:


> ....I can tell you with out doubt, we over age the majority of the bucks we kill!


Yea, I think many do. Thanks for sharing your pics. Cool to see the progression.


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## Wild Thing

I only have 1 buck that I followed and have photos of for 3 consecutive years. I may have also had photos of him as a yearling but, like others, I don't typically save yearling photos. I do have 402 photos of this deer from 2 1/2 thru 4 1/2 and I have both of his shed antlers from when he was 2 1/2.

As I mentioned in the current thread on "Antler Curves...", it would be virtually impossible to make the "700 Club" here in Dickinson County as you will see from this deer as he would have only scored about 110" as a 4 year old.

Meet the deer we called "G-2's":

2015-16 - As a 2 year old - Note the very small brow tine on his right antler:

View attachment 369455


Shed antlers found in the spring of 2016 - Note small brow tine on right side:










Fall of 2016 as a 3 year old - Note the slightly larger brow tine on his right side:










Fall of 2017 as a 4 year old:

View attachment 369461


I had an encounter with him at another stand about 20 minutes after this photo was taken. I had him set up perfectly and was tracking him for a 16 yard shot when my release malfunctioned and released the arrow while I was tracking him. He was killed by a neighbor about 3/4 mile away 10 days later:


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## LabtechLewis

calhoun said:


> Next up is your classic spike!
> View attachment 369339
> View attachment 369343












Do you have any more pics of this one handy? I mean, ones that are better for AOTH?


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## LabtechLewis

calhoun said:


> I can tell you with out doubt, we over age the majority of the bucks we kill!





otcarcher said:


> Yea, I think many do. Thanks for sharing your pics. Cool to see the progression.


It's interesting you guys say this. I feel like the common reaction in the Trail Cam Section is to _under_ age bucks. Someone will post one up and most people guess its a 2YO. Almost as if they have been conditioned that 3YOs are so rare that they must never speak of them...

I have some similar comparisons in this thread 
https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/same-buck.621535/


Great thread Calhoun! Love to see the changes YOY.


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## mbrewer

Newaygo1 said:


> View attachment 369451
> This Rare that a Few Have Such Access and Can Allow To Pass / Let Them Grow... For me I have been using Cams since they were 35 MM Cams and paying for "Film Processing" Back the only 2 Cams and they were not Cheap... I have NEVER seen a Buck from 1 year to the Next as the OP Talks About... I also run many Cams 24/7 and I get more Bucks using Black Flash Cams but never seen one from 1 year till the Next no way to ID them to Really Be Sure And Have Pasted on many Small Bucks but one can never Know if Last Years Spike, 4 Point or Even 6 Because of the "Potential" Growth a Buck "Could" Have so really no Way To Actually Know One Buck is The Same Buck from Year To Year. But Again most rarely Have Access to maybe 120 Acres much less 40! And With "Hunting Pressure" You Never Can Track a Buck from Year To Year. Glad the OP Can If that is really Possible But It is RARE as Most that Pass have Bucks Taken because of the Small Parcels they Hunt and with Public Lands and then the "Buck Dispersal" Issue... So This is again RARE... I had this Buck 3 years ago He had a Sticker Point in Niv you could See and THE Best Buck I Had back in 2016... NEVER Saw Him AGain Like majority of Big Bucks You Get Images One Year But NEVER The NEXT, If I can Find the Night Image with the Sticker Point I will Post It!
> But It IS VERY *Rare* You Can Track Bucks Year To Year / And Know It is The *SAME Buck*!!!
> Neaygo1


How rare it is, I don't know but I can vouch for it happening for me more than a few times now. For me it happened or began mostly by chance and mostly with 2 year old deer that I was able to identify 1, 2 or even 3 years later.

I'm paying a lot more attention now than ever before. It's the surest way to accurately age a deer that interests me enough to pursue it.


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## johnhunter247

Newaygo1 said:


> View attachment 369451
> This Rare that a Few Have Such Access and Can Allow To Pass / Let Them Grow... For me I have been using Cams since they were 35 MM Cams and paying for "Film Processing" Back the only 2 Cams and they were not Cheap... I have NEVER seen a Buck from 1 year to the Next as the OP Talks About... I also run many Cams 24/7 and I get more Bucks using Black Flash Cams but never seen one from 1 year till the Next no way to ID them to Really Be Sure And Have Pasted on many Small Bucks but one can never Know if Last Years Spike, 4 Point or Even 6 Because of the "Potential" Growth a Buck "Could" Have so really no Way To Actually Know One Buck is The Same Buck from Year To Year. But Again most rarely Have Access to maybe 120 Acres much less 40! And With "Hunting Pressure" You Never Can Track a Buck from Year To Year. Glad the OP Can If that is really Possible But It is RARE as Most that Pass have Bucks Taken because of the Small Parcels they Hunt and with Public Lands and then the "Buck Dispersal" Issue... So This is again RARE... I had this Buck 3 years ago He had a Sticker Point in Niv you could See and THE Best Buck I Had back in 2016... NEVER Saw Him AGain Like majority of Big Bucks You Get Images One Year But NEVER The NEXT, If I can Find the Night Image with the Sticker Point I will Post It!
> But It IS VERY *Rare* You Can Track Bucks Year To Year / And Know It is The *SAME Buck*!!!
> Neaygo1


The pic you posted is a beautiful buck. I agree most over age because they are looking at the antlers and consider nothing else. My guess is the buck in your picture although very nice is probably my a three year old. I’m curious about this 700 club?


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## Wild Thing

johnhunter247 said:


> The pic you posted is a beautiful buck. I agree most over age because they are looking at the antlers and consider nothing else. My guess is the buck in your picture although very nice is probably my a three year old. I’m curious about this 700 club?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Surprised you haven't seen it before John. Top 5 Michigan bucks which reach an aggregate score of at least 700 inches (gross) which is 5 bucks averaging 140".

"700 Club"


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## johnhunter247

Wild Thing said:


> Surprised you haven't seen it before John. Top 5 Michigan bucks which reach an aggregate score of at least 700 inches (gross) which is 5 bucks averaging 140".
> 
> "700 Club"


Oh yah, now that you mention that I remember something about that a while back. But Michigan bucks? I doubt there are many if any killing wild Michigan bucks have five that score over 700” total. I would easily have that but not Michigan deer. One Michigan buck would be in that qualification but the rest would come from Iowa and Missouri.


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## Wild Thing

johnhunter247 said:


> Oh yah, now that you mention that I remember something about that a while back. *But Michigan bucks? *I doubt there are many if any killing wild Michigan bucks have five that score over 700” total. I would easily have that but not Michigan deer. One Michigan buck would be in that qualification but the rest would come from Iowa and Missouri.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes - Only Michigan bucks. I know you would be there with Iowa and Mizzou bucks but this is only for Michigan. There are several here who have made it ...mbrewer, BOWHNTR, Dish7, RMH?, Mike Hartges??, can't remember all off the top of my head but you will see who the Masters are by scrolling through the thread. A worthy accomplishment for sure.


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## LabtechLewis

Wild Thing said:


> Yes - Only Michigan bucks. I know you would be there with Iowa and Mizzou bucks but this is only for Michigan. There are several here who have made it ...mbrewer, BOWHNTR, Dish7, RMH?, Mike Hartges??, can't remember all off the top of my head but you will see who the Masters are by scrolling through the thread. A worthy accomplishment for sure.


RMH? I think you're confusing that with the "eating 700" of chewy granola bar club". That's a different thread...


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## johnhunter247

Wild Thing said:


> Yes - Only Michigan bucks. I know you would be there with Iowa and Mizzou bucks but this is only for Michigan. There are several here who have made it ...mbrewer, BOWHNTR, Dish7, RMH?, Mike Hartges??, can't remember all off the top of my head but you will see who the Masters are by scrolling through the thread. A worthy accomplishment for sure.


I have to agree with you there 100%. That’s one hell of an outstanding accomplishment here in Michigan. The few that have accomplished that in Michigan definitely have something good going on in there favor. There isn’t many Michigan hunters that have even seen one deer in there life needed to qualify for that club let alone kill five. You need an average score of 140. I’ve killed two Michigan bucks over 140 in about 30 years. I’ve seen four on camera running them year round for about 25 years that would go 140ish give or take. If I had the tags and the time I could possibly make that club in one season in southern Iowa. Two seasons for sure. Congrats to anyone who has made that accomplishment in Michigan. That’s a tall task.


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## HUBBHUNTER

Wild Thing said:


> Yes - Only Michigan bucks. I know you would be there with Iowa and Mizzou bucks but this is only for Michigan. There are several here who have made it ...mbrewer, BOWHNTR, Dish7, RMH?, Mike Hartges??, can't remember all off the top of my head but you will see who the Masters are by scrolling through the thread. A worthy accomplishment for sure.


Don't forget Walt.


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## Wild Thing

HUBBHUNTER said:


> Don't forget Walt.


 Yep - Walt Donaldson is one of the Masters!!

Can't forge John Eberhart.


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## otcarcher

LabtechLewis said:


> It's interesting you guys say this. I feel like the common reaction in the Trail Cam Section is to _under_ age bucks. Someone will post one up and most people guess its a 2YO. Almost as if they have been conditioned that 3YOs are so rare that they must never speak of them...
> 
> I have some similar comparisons in this thread
> https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/same-buck.621535/
> 
> 
> Great thread Calhoun! Love to see the changes YOY.


Yes, we see that as well. That said though,, I feel there are significant differences between 2.5 and 3.5 that are easily discernible.....much more so than say 3.5 to 4.5, or 4.5 to 5.5, etc.


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## LabtechLewis

otcarcher said:


> I feel there are significant differences between 2.5 and 3.5 that are easily discernible...


Which characteristics are you keying on most heavily?


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## jr28schalm

HUBBHUNTER said:


> Don't forget Walt.


Walt needs xrays before he's entered


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## HUBBHUNTER

jr28schalm said:


> Walt needs xrays before he's entered


He seems to have gone AwOl. I wonder if the pressure was getting to him?


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## johnhunter247

Wild Thing said:


> Yes - Only Michigan bucks. I know you would be there with Iowa and Mizzou bucks but this is only for Michigan. There are several here who have made it ...mbrewer, BOWHNTR, Dish7, RMH?, Mike Hartges??, can't remember all off the top of my head but you will see who the Masters are by scrolling through the thread. A worthy accomplishment for sure.


Are all these guys hunting zone 3? I would imagine even though a tough task would be the easiest to accomplish in southern Michigan. What would be real impressive is if someone managed to do it all on stateland in Michigan. I would say it doesn’t make you a better hunter because you have hit that mark. It makes you a luckier hunter because you obviously have some quality land to hunt. That’s one thing about hunting. It’s tough to compare because there definitely isn’t a level playing field for everyone. I’ve said before on here I don’t believe killing big deer makes you a great hunter. Normally if you have the money to burn you can put yourself in a situation to succeed with pretty high individual goals. Even the op said he has about 1000 acres in southern Michigan to manage and watch these deer. Good for him. Although I’m envious like most would be this is an interesting topic and I look forward to following it. I’m in 100% agreement that the majority misjudge the age of the deer. Most of the time they over judge on age and rarely under judge. It’s like when you shoot a deer and think you shot a giant and then you walk up and the ground shrinkage sets in. I’m sure that’s happened to the best of them. That’s why I love trail cameras. You know exactly what your getting when you kill a deer if you have pics and study them. I have let many deer go in my life that I would have shot if it wasn’t for trail cam pics. If I have a deer I that I think will score 140/150 ish and I think he is a three year old body wise I won’t even think twice and pass him if I am managing a farm. Those are the deer that will be a true giant if they make it to five. Thanks Calhoun for starting this thread and I look forwArd to following along. My question is how can you be so certain that your correct when you think your looking at the same deer three or four years in s row? Its very tough to have distinctive marks on a whitetail other than there horns being exactly the same except larger. Myself I have killed many deer that have had a slice in there ear. I think that’s a tough characteristic to use to claim it’s the same deer. I’m not saying your wrong. I’m just saying from my experience there are very few deer that have any really distinctive marks to go by.


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## Botiz

Calhoun, what part of the county are you in? I’m in the Marshall area.


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## jr28schalm

HUBBHUNTER said:


> He seems to have gone AwOl. I wonder if the pressure was getting to him?


Lol, last I heard he did a Mike Avery interview and he's Mia now


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## otcarcher

LabtechLewis said:


> Which characteristics are you keying on most heavily?


Multiple, but I find the aging chart that QDMA has explains it very well.


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## LabtechLewis




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## jr28schalm

Last year
View attachment 369509


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## jr28schalm

This year


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## RMH

LabtechLewis said:


> RMH? I think you're confusing that with the "eating 700" of chewy granola bar club". That's a different thread...


When I get in the 700 club I will publish an article on how to shoot mature whitetails while chewing on Granola Bars and washing them down with Green Apple Gatorade.

I have a ways to go though, I have piles of two year old bucks and only a small handful of older bucks that I have killed. My biggest rack is just over the 130 mark. I have had several close encounters with mature bucks with big racks in the last 10 years but never have been able to seal the deal.

I have been hunting the same small chunk of property for close to 20 years. Only on three occasions I saw the same buck two years in a row. One of them I believe I saw him a third year. I usually have one camera out but haven't ever captured a great buck on it.


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## LabtechLewis

RMH said:


> When I get in the 700 club I will publish an article on how to shoot matures whitetails while chewing on Granola Bars and washing them down with Green Apple Gatorade.
> 
> I have a ways to go though, I have piles of two year old bucks and only a small handful of older bucks that I have killed. My biggest rack is just over the 130 mark. I have had several close encounters with mature bucks with big racks in the last 10 years but never have been able to seal the deal.
> 
> I have been hunting the same small chunk of property for close to 20 years. Only on three occasions I saw the same buck two years in a row. One of them I believe I saw him a third year. I usually have one camera out but haven't ever captured a great buck on it.


:lol:

Believe me, this was no commentary on your hunting ability. I just couldn't pass up the softball.

I pick up a lot of tricks of the trade in your LFTS posts. Not the least of which is your ability to persevere through the long, endurance sits on stand.


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## RMH

LabtechLewis said:


> :lol:
> 
> Believe me, this was no commentary on your hunting ability. I just couldn't pass up the softball.
> 
> I pick up a lot of tricks of the trade in your LFTS posts. Not the least of which is your ability to persevere through the long, endurance sits on stand.


Didn't take it that way LL.... all good. Looked like a good opportunity for me to let people know they won't be seeing me posting up my success in the 700 Club anytime soon. 

Great thread Calhoun.


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## sniper

Who's gonna start a thread with pics of 4.5 yr old Michigan bucks dead or alive?? 

Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## mbrewer

LabtechLewis said:


> RMH? I think you're confusing that with the "eating 700" of chewy granola bar club". That's a different thread...


That is a lmao post.:lol:


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## mbrewer

otcarcher said:


> Yes, we see that as well. That said though,, I feel there are significant differences between 2.5 and 3.5 that are easily discernible.....much more so than say 3.5 to 4.5, or 4.5 to 5.5, etc.


I agree. I can tell up to 3.5 but after that not so much. If I can't assign it a number between 1.5 and 3.5 I call it Mature and be happy.


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## jr28schalm

sniper said:


> Who's gonna start a thread with pics of 4.5 yr old Michigan bucks dead or alive??
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Not me, I don't know what they look like


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## johnhunter247

sniper said:


> Who's gonna start a thread with pics of 4.5 yr old Michigan bucks dead or alive??
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I got one! Only one in 35 years of Michigan hunting. I have several in a few years of out of state hunting. Here is my Mature Michigan deer.
























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## calhoun

View attachment 369583









LabtechLewis said:


> Do you have any more pics of this one handy? I mean, ones that are better for AOTH?


Here is a few more, this would be a classic body type of a 2yold for my area.


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## calhoun

View attachment 369589
I will go back an follow up with your guys questions. Next up, from 2 yolds and on. This is by far been the easiest ones for me to track. I also want people to understand that I have a very unique situation and have developed a really good strategy to be able to do this. I also would like to add this is Calhoun county so people understand that this might not be the type of growth they see in their area of Michigan. I feel the reason I can’t find these bucks as 1 1/2 yolds is because the 2nd set of antlers was such a dramatic change which is the norm. I also would like to add, with the amount of property that I cover I get every buck in my section that calls it home. There are bucks I get that are from other sections but they do not stay pre and post season. 
This was the year of EHD and was very happy to see these two bucks live!


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## calhoun

This next buck I really thought at the time was 4 but I’m pretty confident knowing what I know now he’s only 3.




























His sheds from the previous year scored around mid 120’s the following year he grossed 153” 
Couple pics of the growth from one year to the next side by side


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## calhoun




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## stickbow shooter

jr28schalm said:


> Not me, I don't know what they look like


Me either buddy, me either.


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## calhoun

View attachment 369633


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## sniper

stickbow shooter said:


> Me either buddy, me either.


Stick remember he posted that after lunch...Jr forgot he had a 4 yr old hanging from his tree at one time..

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## calhoun

View attachment 369659







This one is one of the biggest jumps in antler score I’ve ever had. I believe he was 4 the year he was killed grossed close to 170.


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## jamie2003rkc

jr28schalm said:


> Not me, I don't know what they look like


Jr did you get the deer aged you posted earlier in this thread ?


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## jamie2003rkc

calhoun said:


> View attachment 369605
> View attachment 369607


Very impressive


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## jr28schalm

jamie2003rkc said:


> Jr did you get the deer aged you posted earlier in this thread ?


No, just have weight 209 gutted


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## calhoun

johnhunter247 said:


> Are all these guys hunting zone 3? I would imagine even though a tough task would be the easiest to accomplish in southern Michigan. What would be real impressive is if someone managed to do it all on stateland in Michigan. I would say it doesn’t make you a better hunter because you have hit that mark. It makes you a luckier hunter because you obviously have some quality land to hunt. That’s one thing about hunting. It’s tough to compare because there definitely isn’t a level playing field for everyone. I’ve said before on here I don’t believe killing big deer makes you a great hunter. Normally if you have the money to burn you can put yourself in a situation to succeed with pretty high individual goals. Even the op said he has about 1000 acres in southern Michigan to manage and watch these deer. Good for him. Although I’m envious like most would be this is an interesting topic and I look forward to following it. I’m in 100% agreement that the majority misjudge the age of the deer. Most of the time they over judge on age and rarely under judge. It’s like when you shoot a deer and think you shot a giant and then you walk up and the ground shrinkage sets in. I’m sure that’s happened to the best of them. That’s why I love trail cameras. You know exactly what your getting when you kill a deer if you have pics and study them. I have let many deer go in my life that I would have shot if it wasn’t for trail cam pics. If I have a deer I that I think will score 140/150 ish and I think he is a three year old body wise I won’t even think twice and pass him if I am managing a farm. Those are the deer that will be a true giant if they make it to five. Thanks Calhoun for starting this thread and I look forwArd to following along. My question is how can you be so certain that your correct when you think your looking at the same deer three or four years in s row? Its very tough to have distinctive marks on a whitetail other than there horns being exactly the same except larger. Myself I have killed many deer that have had a slice in there ear. I think that’s a tough characteristic to use to claim it’s the same deer. I’m not saying your wrong. I’m just saying from my experience there are very few deer that have any really distinctive marks to go by.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is the one thing that is tough for most people to wrap their head around. Being I’m able to run trailcams on almost my entire section I’m able to track every buck that uses this land. Also I think you know reconyx cams are picture taking machines. I will have 100’s of pictures of the same deer all season long. Where most people mess up Is post season, you have to know what’s left to see what’s coming up for next year. Im also lucky to be able to have a abundance of winter food and great thermal cover. This keeps these post season bachelor group bucks in this section all winter and makes them easy to track in the summer when they move to their summer range. 
If you know what you have post season then you can start putting together who’s who. Much easier when they are 2. One thing I see a lot of, is guys claiming they shot a 4 or 5 yold buck and I always ask do you run trailcams? Most of them do and they have lots of them, next question is what did he look like last year? The most common answer is never seen him before. I can gurantee if you shoot a 140 plus buck in the SLP most likely other people have pictures of this buck and on top of that if he is 4 or 5 he will definitely have a picture trail from years past. Large deer don’t just pop up out of nowhere, to have age they have a history, no history their not that old. The other thing I see all the time is I have a pic of a giant but never seen him again, the reason you don’t see him anymore is cause he’s dead! 
With a huge network of neighbors working together you get to actually see what happens to some of these deer!


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## jr28schalm

sniper said:


> Stick remember he posted that after lunch...Jr forgot he had a 4 yr old hanging from his tree at one time..
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Thnx , this post made me laugh and now my last wife thinks I have a new gf


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## johnhunter247

mbrewer said:


> If I remember correctly, the brows in pic one and two are identical in all but size.


Maybe it’s just me. But I don’t see it. The last two pics are so identical why would the first one be so much different. I’m thinking it’s got to be some kind of characteristic on the actual deer that I’m missing.


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## Dish7

mbrewer said:


> These deer have found, learned or just plain landed in a situation that allows them to coexist with pressure. I don't worry that once found a good buck will vacate the area to avoid pressure unless it's immediate (temporary) or extreme. IMO their behavior isn't much different than how a rabbit responds to a beagle on his trail.


I totally agree with this. I believe the if the buck gets out unscathed when jumped, he will be back at some point. After all, the spot worked. He detected danger and escaped. I've always thought the Andrae D'Aquisto "bump and dump" tactic would be a blast to try...very situational of course.


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## mike hartges

Here are pictures of a buck we called Corkscrew. One year he grew a funny looking browtine, hence the name. I have pictures of him at 2-1/2, 3-1/2 and 4-1/2.


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## mike hartges

One more picture of Corkscrew at age 4-1/2.


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## bowhunter426

I haven't had much luck tracking deer year to year. The section I hunt is made up of 10-20 acres properties and they all have someone hunting them. On Nov 15 I could see 3 other people hunting from my treestand. 

The exception is a buck with a messed up front leg(gimpy) that I have 3 years of history with a buck I had 2 years of history with. Looking forward to see gimpy next year if he made it thru the season

























I had 2 years of history with this deer. I have a bunch of pictures from 2016 that may be him as well, but it is pure guess. He showed up in October 2017 and made my property home. I have hundreds of pictures of him from Oct 2017 thru March 2018 when he shed both sides I lost track of him. He returned Oct 25th. 1 of 2 trail camera pictures I got of him this season below.


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## BWHUNTR

On my hunting propery we find a great deal of sheds. Mostly are first year racks and two year olds. I've found sheds from two mature bucks that I have killed. Both bucks were CA tested. The first buck was aged at 5 1/2 and I have the shed from when he was 4 1/2, he was a little longer tined at 4 1/2 and threw out junk at the bases at 5 1/2. Where the junk grew at 5 he actually has indication of these abnormal points at 4, though just small points.
The second buck was aged at 4 1/2 and we actually found his shed from when he was 3 1/2 the following spring of killing him. He was chewed up a little bit but their is without question it's the same deer.
Of these two mature deer their antler configuration mimic each other from one year to the next. My question is when does a whitetail put on his most inches, and at what age? And are their frames really drastically changing from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2, or from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 and making them unrecognizable? Would it make sense that our older deer are more recognizable than our younger deer? Unless they had very unique identifying characteristics on their body.


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## sniper

My thoughts are 4.5 yr old bucks are absolutely out here in MI. Especially the slp..If you have 1 farm in your area that doesn't allow hunting or a inaccessible piece of ground (swamp etc) that's untouchable, older deer exist...Cams do not lie..Im in heavenly hunted Hillsdale county and I've had numerous 4.5 plus bucks on cam..3.5 yr olds bucks are common place for us in the last 5 yrs...Heres a few 4.5 yr olds that we've gotten pics of in the last few years..I will note most of these are 1 timers meaning most are single encounters and I do not have history with a lot of bucks for multiple years..Thats ok though..Trigger restraint, habitat and some luck makes this very possible guys no matter what your neighbors do.


























































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## mike hartges

Sniper, I like that heavy racked buck that is winking every time I see a picture of him.


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## johnhunter247

sniper said:


> My thoughts are 4.5 yr old bucks are absolutely out here in MI. Especially the slp..If you have 1 farm in your area that doesn't allow hunting or a inaccessible piece of ground (swamp etc) that's untouchable, older deer exist...Cams do not lie..Im in heavenly hunted Hillsdale county and I've had numerous 4.5 plus bucks on cam..3.5 yr olds bucks are common place for us in the last 5 yrs...Heres a few 4.5 yr olds that we've gotten pics of in the last few years..I will note most of these are 1 timers meaning most are single encounters and I do not have history with a lot of bucks for multiple years..Thats ok though..Trigger restraint, habitat and some luck makes this very possible guys no matter what your neighbors do.
> View attachment 370029
> View attachment 370031
> View attachment 370033
> View attachment 370035
> View attachment 370037
> View attachment 370039
> View attachment 370041
> View attachment 370043
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Have you ever taken a step back, taken a hard look at your property and try to figure out why these mature bucks are one timers and don’t want to stay put on your place? Maybe there is some habitat work or something your doing that you could change to make them hang around. They have obviously been there. It would drive me insane trying to figure out how to hold them. You might be a good fit for one of the habitat consultants like Sturgis or Lapratt. Sometimes it’s just another frame of mind that could change things for you. There are lots of guys doing it now but if I was going to do that I would want a guy with a proven track record of killing mature bucks like one of the two mentioned. I definitely wouldn’t use a guy that has only killed Michigan giants. The two mentioned have proven there worth over and over again. Idk sniper, I’m sure there has to be something that could make them frequent your property more. It’s not like they don’t exist. You have proof. 


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## Dish7

johnhunter247 said:


> I definitely wouldn’t use a guy that has only killed Michigan giants.


Why? That's where his property is. Not arguing, just wondering.


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## johnhunter247

Dish7 said:


> Why? That's where his property is. Not arguing, just wondering.


Because these guys have been able to get it done consistently in Michigan too. Lapratt has gotten it done many times close to the area sniper is in. When I say Michigan giants I’m saying 2 and 3 year old 125/130 inch deer. Look up Tony Lapratt’s track record hunting around cold water Michigan. Sturgis hunts more than Michigan but has an incredible track record. There aren’t many guys that can consistently hold and kill mature bucks and those guys can do it and do it consistently. If I am going to pay a guy to show me how to do it he better have a good portfolio of bucks he has harvested in conditions like the property I want his help with. He better not be showing me a bunch of 125/130’s. I don’t personally know these guys and I’m sure some one can correct me if I’m wrong but I think tony Lapratt has somewhere in the neighborhood of less than 100 acres in the cold water area he has had most of his success on killing substantial bucks. That’s the kind of guy I would want to do a property tour and give me advice. He obviously does something right. Sturgis well... His track record speaks for itself. So does the success of the properties he has helped develop. He has tons of experience with mature bucks, what they want and there behavior. Those are the kind of guys I want experience from if I’m paying for it. They have proven there worth over and over again. 


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## johnhunter247

Dish7 said:


> Why? That's where his property is. Not arguing, just wondering.


If you haven’t done so YouTube some of the guys videos mentioned and watch them. I believe the majority of Sturgis’s hunting is done in Wisconsin which is also heavily pressured. 


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## Dish7

johnhunter247 said:


> If you haven’t done so YouTube some of the guys videos mentioned and watch them. I believe the majority of Sturgis’s hunting is done in Wisconsin which is also heavily pressured.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm well aware of these guys. Lapratt has, off the top my head, 54 acres a few miles from me. You answered my question with your definition of "Michigan giants."


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## johnhunter247

Dish7 said:


> I'm well aware of these guys. Lapratt has, off the top my head, 54 acres a few miles from me. You answered my question with your definition of "Michigan giants."


All in all if your going to pay you might as well get the best you can for your money. Both those guys have transformed many successful properties. Had I not had my accident and had to sell I was intent on having one of those guys do a property tour and help me out. I believe either one would have been well worth the money. 


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## LabtechLewis

sniper said:


> My thoughts are 4.5 yr old bucks are absolutely out here in MI. Especially the slp.


There's that big-beamed, apple tree buck again. I wish you would have killed that bugger. Maybe he'll be back next season. A man can dream...


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## calhoun

johnhunter247 said:


> Calhoun this post is a perfect example of what I asked you to begin with. I completely understand pic two and three being the same deer. But from the first photo when the deer was really young what is the determining factor that assures you that its the same deer? Myself I can't see the match. I don't see the horns matching remotely close to the last two pics. The last two pics look just about identical just a little bigger in picture three. I am very curious how you came to the conclusion that it's the same deer. In my mind this is the toughest part.


John, this is where post season pics are so important. After the season when bucks get back into bachelor groups you can then see what’s left. If you have just a couple 2 yolds like the 10 in the first pic and you pay close attention to brow tines. Brow tines are the one thing that stays very consistent. If there short they will always be on the short side, if they lean or come of the rack in a certain way they will mimic that every year. As I keep adding pictures of deer from year to year really pay attention to the brow tines. You’ll see a pattern develope. If a 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 yold has strong brows he will continue to show impressive brows year after year. If a bucks starts off with very short or just bumps for brows you’ll notice they’ll never have big brows. This is where really understating the exact age of the deer comes into play, if you constantly just shoot your best scoring deer not really sure on his age, you are most likely shooting the deer that has the most potential to be a giant. Here’s a good example of two bucks both from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 that have completely different brows, look how they carried over from 1 year to the next.


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## calhoun

BWHUNTR said:


> On my hunting propery we find a great deal of sheds. Mostly are first year racks and two year olds. I've found sheds from two mature bucks that I have killed. Both bucks were CA tested. The first buck was aged at 5 1/2 and I have the shed from when he was 4 1/2, he was a little longer tined at 4 1/2 and threw out junk at the bases at 5 1/2. Where the junk grew at 5 he actually has indication of these abnormal points at 4, though just small points.
> The second buck was aged at 4 1/2 and we actually found his shed from when he was 3 1/2 the following spring of killing him. He was chewed up a little bit but their is without question it's the same deer.
> Of these two mature deer their antler configuration mimic each other from one year to the next. My question is when does a whitetail put on his most inches, and at what age? And are their frames really drastically changing from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2, or from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 and making them unrecognizable? Would it make sense that our older deer are more recognizable than our younger deer? Unless they had very unique identifying characteristics on their body.


The biggest change is always 1 1/2- 2 1/2, that’s what makes them so hard to track from 1-2. From 2 on they develope certain frame that will stay with them for their life. I don’t have a ton of experience from 3-4 but have a few. I have a couple that really exploded at 4 and one that only put on about 10”. From everything I’ve read 4 and on is when everything can go to antlers. The Skelton (bone growth) has stopped. This is why in Michigan we rarely get to see the true potential of the bucks we take. 
These are probaly the best example of major growth at 4.


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## Hoytman5

Newaygo1 said:


> View attachment 369451
> This Rare that a Few Have Such Access and Can Allow To Pass / Let Them Grow... For me I have been using Cams since they were 35 MM Cams and paying for "Film Processing" Back the only 2 Cams and they were not Cheap... I have NEVER seen a Buck from 1 year to the Next as the OP Talks About... I also run many Cams 24/7 and I get more Bucks using Black Flash Cams but never seen one from 1 year till the Next no way to ID them to Really Be Sure And Have Pasted on many Small Bucks but one can never Know if Last Years Spike, 4 Point or Even 6 Because of the "Potential" Growth a Buck "Could" Have so really no Way To Actually Know One Buck is The Same Buck from Year To Year. But Again most rarely Have Access to maybe 120 Acres much less 40! And With "Hunting Pressure" You Never Can Track a Buck from Year To Year. Glad the OP Can If that is really Possible But It is RARE as Most that Pass have Bucks Taken because of the Small Parcels they Hunt and with Public Lands and then the "Buck Dispersal" Issue... So This is again RARE... I had this Buck 3 years ago He had a Sticker Point in Niv you could See and THE Best Buck I Had back in 2016... NEVER Saw Him AGain Like majority of Big Bucks You Get Images One Year But NEVER The NEXT, If I can Find the Night Image with the Sticker Point I will Post It!
> But It IS VERY *Rare* You Can Track Bucks Year To Year / And Know It is The *SAME Buck*!!!
> Neaygo1


I disagree. I have pictures of 2 bucks that I can positively identify 2 years in a row. One because he had my broad head in his front shoulder still from the previous season and the 2nd. Buck had the same split G-3 two years in a row and a distinctive mark on his leg.


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## 12970

Sure a Small Percent Can but do the Math Few get that! As I read Posts Very Few State they Can see the Same Buck from Year To Year and even Fewer Take one of Those Bucks. I appreciate that you and a *few* others can But I stated I have run Cams; 35mm, then Homebrews before Cams were more Commercial Available and even the Now Commercial Cams and Never Seen the same "Buck" from 1 year to the Next. As Antlers Grow they can and do Change whether they bang something with an antler or whatever I have Not been Able to say 100% That was this Buck Last year and some with got food and gene can change a lot in a Years time. Glad some Think so. But where I am I have not been Able to and I have been hunting the Same Property for more than 25 Years and Been using Cams for most of that Time starting with 1 then 6 Homebrews and Now 12 Cams and Yet To Know the Bucks the next Year are the Same as Last Years or the Year Before. Hard to ID with some Defining Rack or characteristic to truly know it Is the Same "Buck"...
The percentages are too small maybe again some have access where few others Do!
Newaygo1


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## Whitetail Freak

Newaygo1 said:


> Sure a Small Percent Can but do the Math Few get that! As I read Posts Very Few State they Can see the Same Buck from Year To Year and even Fewer Take one of Those Bucks. I appreciate that you and a *few* others can But I stated I have run Cams; 35mm, then Homebrews before Cams were more Commercial Available and even the Now Commercial Cams and Never Seen the same "Buck" from 1 year to the Next. As Antlers Grow they can and do Change whether they bang something with an antler or whatever I have Not been Able to say 100% That was this Buck Last year and some with got food and gene can change a lot in a Years time. Glad some Think so. But where I am I have not been Able to and I have been hunting the Same Property for more than 25 Years and Been using Cams for most of that Time starting with 1 then 6 Homebrews and Now 12 Cams and Yet To Know the Bucks the next Year are the Same as Last Years or the Year Before. Hard to ID with some Defining Rack or characteristic to truly know it Is the Same "Buck"...
> The percentages are too small maybe again some have access where few others Do!
> Newaygo1


I see them year to year pretty much every year. Even get them once in awhile. Usually pretty identifiable after 2. One we watched till he was 6, was missing a rear leg. No doubt in my mind the buck that survived this last year will be back this coming season.


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## Bowhunt

sniper said:


> Calhoun with all the property you control and observe, seems to me you should have more 4.5 yr plus bucks..
> Especially in a good county like Calhoun..Are you guys still recovering from the ehd hit??
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Not surprising to me... with increasing range in bow technology, a 30 day gun season and 80%+ of hunters thrilled with a 2.5 yr old deer, you need a deer to virtually avoid hunters willing to kill him for 2 full seasons to get to that age class. Not that easy when one mess up gets him killed.


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## sniper

Bowhunt said:


> Not surprising to me... with increasing range in bow technology, a 30 day gun season and 80%+ of hunters thrilled with a 2.5 yr old deer, you need a deer to virtually avoid hunters willing to kill him for 2 full seasons to get to that age class. Not that easy when one mess up gets him killed.


Bowhunt I get what your saying. The hunting pressure can get ridiculous..
I thought he mentioned he had a thousand acres or more he was patrolling and controlling..Im in Hillsdale county with as much pressure or not more, with a fraction of the property he has, and I get a good handfull of 4.5 plus yr old bucks to hunt every year...And so does my neighbors...Evil smile here..
3.5 yr olds bucks are obviously in good numbers also..I always have an abundant number of pics of them every year.

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## Bowhunt

sniper said:


> Bowhunt I get what your saying. The hunting pressure can get ridiculous..
> I thought he mentioned he had a thousand acres or more he was patrolling and controlling..Im in Hillsdale county with as much pressure or not more, with a fraction of the property he has, and I get a good handfull of 4.5 plus yr old bucks to hunt every year...And so does my neighbors...Evil smile here..
> 3.5 yr olds bucks are obviously in good numbers also..I have always have an abundant number of pics of them every year.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I think two things. All that property he mentions is not contiguos and you apparently have more trigger restrained hunters!! That is likely from them knowing a greater age class exists.


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## calhoun

sniper said:


> Calhoun with all the property you control and observe, seems to me you should have more 4.5 yr plus bucks..
> Especially in a good county like Calhoun..Are you guys still recovering from the ehd hit??
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Sniper, I would say its multiple things any one of those 5 bucks are dead if they leave the property I control. 99% percent of the hunters in Michigan will shoot those deer regardless of their age. 
Also you say you have a good number of 4 yolds? Do you have pictures of them for at least 3 years? One thing I can tell you with out doubt a lot of 4 yold bucks in reality are really not that old. Aging on the hoof is just eduacated guess and I know in the end it’s really not that big of a deal if he’s really 3 or 4. But if you really want to see the true potential of these bucks it’s something that you really have to figure out. For me bucks that I consider local to my section will be with me once it’s post season and their at least 2 1/2 for the rest of their life, I’ve never had older bucks show up and decide he’s going to change his home range to my place for the rest of his live. 
Guys talk about older bucks moving into their property during the season, this does happen with me but when the pressure is off and winter is over they head back to where they came from.
By far the extended seasons and relentless pressure of the i have to shoot a buck crowd is my biggest setback. Even with a good chunk of a section tied up these bucks will leave this section on excursions, you simply cannot, no matter what anybody says, hold these bucks on less then a few thousand acres. I know this won’t be a popular thing with all the wildlife consultants that say will grow your deer on your 40 acres, but it’s a reality!


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## calhoun

Going to share these with you guys tell me the one thing they all have in common?


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## NovemberWhitetailz

calhoun said:


> View attachment 371157
> View attachment 371165
> View attachment 371159
> View attachment 371163
> View attachment 371161
> Going to share these with you guys tell me the one thing they all have in common?


Big hindquarters? Oh... and nice B1G racks


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## LabtechLewis

Beam length?


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## sniper

calhoun said:


> Sniper, I would say its multiple things any one of those 5 bucks are dead if they leave the property I control. 99% percent of the hunters in Michigan will shoot those deer regardless of their age.
> Also you say you have a good number of 4 yolds? Do you have pictures of them for at least 3 years? One thing I can tell you with out doubt a lot of 4 yold bucks in reality are really not that old. Aging on the hoof is just eduacated guess and I know in the end it’s really not that big of a deal if he’s really 3 or 4. But if you really want to see the true potential of these bucks it’s something that you really have to figure out. For me bucks that I consider local to my section will be with me once it’s post season and their at least 2 1/2 for the rest of their life, I’ve never had older bucks show up and decide he’s going to change his home range to my place for the rest of his live.
> Guys talk about older bucks moving into their property during the season, this does happen with me but when the pressure is off and winter is over they head back to where they came from.
> By far the extended seasons and relentless pressure of the i have to shoot a buck crowd is my biggest setback. Even with a good chunk of a section tied up these bucks will leave this section on excursions, you simply cannot, no matter what anybody says, hold these bucks on less then a few thousand acres. I know this won’t be a popular thing with all the wildlife consultants that say will grow your deer on your 40 acres, but it’s a reality!


Calhoun I don't disagree with what your saying above except the part about 99% percent of bucks are dead when they leave safe zones..We try not to shoot bucks younger than 3.5 so that's why I'll call my property a safe zone..

Post #107 debunks the theory of "dead mature bucks walking"
on only a 154 acres..Except pic #1 of course..lol. These pics are all this years bucks except the mount..All 4 yr olds I'm certain..Ive been getting pics of bucks like this every year for quite some time now. If someone in my area is shooting one of these type bucks, we'll most know about it. It has happened...I rarely gotten multiple year pics of certain bucks but I also don't heavily research it either unless it's obvious ...I know I'm not keeping these bucks living on my place, almost impossible..Im ok with that. .I do know that my property is a place where big deer frequent. I got proof of that multiple times over...In our area we have a mish mash of hunters..I have 2 bordering neighbors that have no clue how to hunt and will shoot anything with 4 legs..In turn, and also in my area, I have a lot of good members right here on these forums that are habitat and vapr guys that practice what they preach..
Combine that with good soil, habitat, ag land, thickets, swamps, good doe numbers, and some trigger restraint, you'll have some mature bucks to hunt..Fun stuff those big bucks that's why we love it!
Good luck with your endeavors..

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## smith34

Dish7 said:


> I'll take that problem any day. LOL.


I agree! And told him I’d trade him hunts! Lol. He loves what a one buck rule has helped him create, if only Michigan could do that!


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## NovemberWhitetailz

smith34 said:


> I agree! And told him I’d trade him hunts! Lol. He loves what a one buck rule has helped him create, if only Michigan could do that!


Do as I say not as I do? pew pew


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## NovemberWhitetailz

sniper said:


> ..All 4 yr olds I'm certain..Ive been getting pics of bucks like this every year for quite some time now. If someone in my area is shooting one of these type bucks, we'll most know about it.
> 
> But, how do you know they are 4? Unless you have history, it's really a guess. There's nothing particular about any of the deer you shared that scream 4 or 5 yr olds. Saying that you'd know if they were killed by a hunter is pretty naive. It's not uncommon for Bucks to have 300-400 acre home ranges. Who knows if your property is the North, South, East or West edge of that range. We have great relationships with all our neighbors and we probably hear about 10% of the bucks killed. Unless it's a giant, people usually don't talk much around our place unless you ask. But a 130" deer isn't going to cause a frenzy
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## sniper

Lol I know their not 3 yr olds! It kinda of narrows it... I could show you a slew of those 3 yr olds to and you would see the difference...Ive been staring down the nose of these things in my area for close to 40 yrs...After 4 and 5 yrs old it gets sketchy cause obviously there's less to compare...My point was these older deer do exist and I don't need 4 years of photos to know it. That's all..No more no less..

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## calhoun

One of the things that really got me interested in trying to keep track of these deer was the vast difference you see in bucks that grow up in no hunting locations compared to an area like mine. When I first started shooting what at the time was a trophy buck for Michigan I just assumed by their body weight and size they must be 4 or 5 yolds. I live close to a few huge power plants that have no hunting and have some contacts that work at these places. Was amazing to see these giant deer that grow up in these places. You have to think to yourself, you do food plots, minerals, tons of habitat work and yet nothing of this caliber. These deer live with none of the above but somehow a few of them are exceptional animals. When talking with the people that get to watch these deer they all had one thing in common, they have watched these deer for many years in a row and have been big for many years in a row. Most likely these deer are living to 5 plus years old. 
So with this knowledge I knew the only thing I was missing is age, just like everywhere else in Michigan that is open to hunting. It just took trailcams to prove it!


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## calhoun

calhoun said:


> View attachment 371157
> View attachment 371165
> View attachment 371159
> View attachment 371163
> View attachment 371161
> Going to share these with you guys tell me the one thing they all have in common?


Ill ask another question about the deer above, if you were managing your farm which one of the above bucks would be your first choice and which ones would you pass on?


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## Dish7

calhoun said:


> View attachment 371157
> View attachment 371165
> View attachment 371159
> View attachment 371163
> View attachment 371161
> Going to share these with you guys tell me the one thing they all have in common?


They are all the same buck? At least pics two and three appear to be the same to me.


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## sniper

Dish7 said:


> They are all the same buck? At least pics two and three appear to be the same to me.


Dish he's been showing us the same couple bucks the entire thread.. I'm seriously beginning to wonder what the point is..If I had a thousand acres to report from in my area I could show you literally a dozen different 4 yr plus bucks minimum...

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## sniper

calhoun said:


> Ill ask another question about the deer above, if you were managing your farm which one of the above bucks would be your first choice and which ones would you pass on?


I wouldn't shoot either one of those bucks..Thats just me..

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## LabtechLewis

calhoun said:


> Ill ask another question about the deer above, if you were managing your farm which one of the above bucks would be your first choice and which ones would you pass on?


So what was the answer to what they have in common?


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## Bowhunt

sniper said:


> Dish he's been showing us the same couple bucks the entire thread.. I'm seriously beginning to wonder what the point is..If I had a thousand acres to report from in my area I could show you literally a dozen different 4 yr plus bucks minimum...
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Yet all you have posted is some pics of a deer that you said randomly show up on your property and don't stay. No proof that any of those deer are 4 yrs old, but yet you could provide dozens. I am not saying some aren't four, but if that age class of deer is so common in your area, post up some year after year pics of the same deer. You have stated you run many cameras. It is known that after 2.5, antler characteristics are fairly discernable year after year with the same deer. It is also known that as deer get older their home range tends to shrink. In both cases, with as many 4+ yr old deer you have running around, you should easily be able to string together a few years of pics. Let's see them.

Not sure why there is criticism of someone being able to document multiple years of certain bucks. For one, I think it is educational as I think many people on here think that 2.5 yr old is really 3.5 and pics and threads like this debunk that. Maybe there is some pride in us hunters that don't like this thread because we all want to think we are shooting 4.5 yr old bucks consistently. I wish I was...


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## sniper

Bow I apologize if it looks like I'm trying discredit calhoun's thread. Not my intention and the thread does have merit. I'll leave it at that..What I will say about it is very difficult to get consecutive years pics of bucks on very small properties like mine. There's just to much room to roam..I will add that older bucks frequent my property often, their time on my piece just can't be measured in years...Continue on fellas...

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## calhoun

The reason I posted the 5 pictures of the bucks is so you can see just how different bucks can look that are all the same age! There’s 4 different bucks in that group of 5 only buck 1 and 4 are the same, the pictures of 1 and 4 are a month apart to show how drastic a body can change during the season. A few of you commented on them had a hard time telling that they were actually 4 different bucks in that group! The point to all of this is, with just a few pics of a deer from one year, it is very hard to be accurate in any way, of what you thing your killing. There’s a reason when you roll through all these dead buck pictures in Michigan with a guy holding his mature Michigan whitetail and he’s lucky to be a 130”. Hopefully for some, this can be a another tool to get a good handle on how old the deer are that their actually killing.


----------



## calhoun

Buck 1 and 4


----------



## calhoun

Buck 2


----------



## calhoun

Buck 3


----------



## calhoun

Buck 5


----------



## mbrewer

calhoun said:


> The reason I posted the 5 pictures of the bucks is so you can see just how different bucks can look that are all the same age! There’s 4 different bucks in that group of 5 only buck 1 and 4 are the same, the pictures of 1 and 4 are a month apart to show how drastic a body can change during the season. A few of you commented on them had a hard time telling that they were actually 4 different bucks in that group! The point to all of this is, with just a few pics of a deer from one year, it is very hard to be accurate in any way, of what you thing your killing. There’s a reason when you roll through all these dead buck pictures in Michigan with a guy holding his mature Michigan whitetail and he’s lucky to be a 130”. Hopefully for some, this can be a another tool to get a good handle on how old the deer are that their actually killing.


How do you age a buck on the hoof that you don't have photographic or other hard evidence to support the estimate? 

I imagine you do like a lot of us do, including myself, categorize what you seeing into one of several classes based on anecdotal information and experience. I'm confident that your method what ever it is, is likely to be more accurate than most, including mine. My assumption is based primarily on what I consider to be exhaustive efforts to catalogue and understand what it is you're seeing.

The point of the question isn't so much how do you do it, but more along the lines of - after considering all the variables, how much do you rely on it?


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## LabtechLewis

What age are the 5?


----------



## Dish7

calhoun said:


> the pictures of 1 and 4 are a month apart to show how drastic a body can change during the season.


Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a "drastic" body change. Hard to do, IMO, with snapshots. Any slight angle or body position change, i.e. the front leg, can easily change perception. I think all of us that run cameras have thought a buck to be bigger or smaller than they actually were when seeing it in person. JMO.



calhoun said:


> There’s a reason when you roll through all these dead buck pictures in Michigan with a guy holding his mature Michigan whitetail and he’s lucky to be a 130”.


Not sure what you are saying here. Hunters are misjudging age based on antler? Or, you factor antler into aging? Both? Neither?


----------



## NovemberWhitetailz

Bowhunt said:


> Yet all you have posted is some pics of a deer that you said randomly show up on your property and don't stay. No proof that any of those deer are 4 yrs old, but yet you could provide dozens. I am not saying some aren't four, but if that age class of deer is so common in your area, post up some year after year pics of the same deer. You have stated you run many cameras. It is known that after 2.5, antler characteristics are fairly discernable year after year with the same deer. It is also known that as deer get older their home range tends to shrink. In both cases, with as many 4+ yr old deer you have running around, you should easily be able to string together a few years of pics. Let's see them.
> 
> Not sure why there is criticism of someone being able to document multiple years of certain bucks. For one, I think it is educational as I think many people on here think that 2.5 yr old is really 3.5 and pics and threads like this debunk that. Maybe there is some pride in us hunters that don't like this thread because we all want to think we are shooting 4.5 yr old bucks consistently. I wish I was...


Still waiting for Sniper to produce these dozens for 4 yr olds.....


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## calhoun

mbrewer said:


> How do you age a buck on the hoof that you don't have photographic or other hard evidence to support the estimate?
> 
> I imagine you do like a lot of us do, including myself, categorize what you seeing into one of several classes based on anecdotal information and experience. I'm confident that your method what ever it is, is likely to be more accurate than most, including mine. My assumption is based primarily on what I consider to be exhaustive efforts to catalogue and understand what it is you're seeing.
> 
> The point of the question isn't so much how do you do it, but more along the lines of - after considering all the variables, how much do you rely on it?


I’ll try to give the short answer, once all the bucks I have post season are identified, The bucks that made it that are 2 or older are easlily identified the following year. For me I can tell a 2 yold from a 3 yold from body size, but an even easier way is his picture from the year before if he’s 3, I’ll have a picture of him as a 2 yold. The 1 1/2 yolds are the hardest, they are easy to identify as 1 1/2 yolds post season but when they grow their next set of antlers the change can be drastic. This is where having tons of pictures of them really helps. I can’t figure them all out in this age class but I can usually do a few each year. For me this is the only way I age the deer I’m hunting. If I get a picture of a deer or happen to see a deer I don’t know then I simply would use my best judgement on body size, antler mass and main beam length to know whether to shoot or not. My ultimate goal is to grow a deer to maturity and then have all his pictures from years past to prove it!


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## calhoun

LabtechLewis said:


> What age are the 5?


They are all 3 yolds


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## calhoun

Dish7 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a "drastic" body change. Hard to do, IMO, with snapshots. Any slight angle or body position change, i.e. the front leg, can easily change perception. I think all of us that run cameras have thought a buck to be bigger or smaller than they actually were when seeing it in person. JMO.
> 
> Not sure what you are saying here. Hunters are misjudging age based on antler? Or, you factor antler into aging? Both? Neither?


















Maybe with one on top of the other will help? He has lost a lot of weight in a month! 
To my last point, we as Michigan hunters for some reason have a set handicap for killing deer that are just simply not mature, but we love to call them that! 
I’m not tying to pick on anybody or tell them what they should or should not shoot. Just trying to show what may be a real alternative to what your actually shooting when you really don’t know the age of your deer.


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## mbrewer

calhoun said:


> I’ll try to give the short answer, once all the bucks I have post season are identified, The bucks that made it that are 2 or older are easlily identified the following year. For me I can tell a 2 yold from a 3 yold from body size, but an even easier way is his picture from the year before if he’s 3, I’ll have a picture of him as a 2 yold. The 1 1/2 yolds are the hardest, they are easy to identify as 1 1/2 yolds post season but when they grow their next set of antlers the change can be drastic. This is where having tons of pictures of them really helps. I can’t figure them all out in this age class but I can usually do a few each year. For me this is the only way I age the deer I’m hunting. If I get a picture of a deer or happen to see a deer I don’t know then I simply would use my best judgement on body size, antler mass and main beam length to know whether to shoot or not. My ultimate goal is to grow a deer to maturity and then have all his pictures from years past to prove it!


Thanks, I appreciate what you're trying to do with this thread and the time and effort it takes to communicate the message.


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## Hillsdales Most Wanted

What i see a lot of is guys saying a small 2.5 year old is only 1.5, especially if the deer is in the slp. Id guess 70+% of hunters would say this deer is 1.5 in both pics.


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## LabtechLewis

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> What i see a lot of is guys saying a small 2.5 year old is only 1.5, especially if the deer is in the slp. Id guess 70+% of hunters would say this deer is 1.5 in both pics.
> View attachment 371791


I agree. I had the same thought when it was originally posted. I think you might be conservative with your estimate (at least with hunters on this forum)...


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## Dish7

calhoun said:


> Maybe with one on top of the other will help? He has lost a lot of weight in a month!


I'll take your word for it. I wonder if you were able to extend the neck and pull that front leg back to show the brisket on the bottom pick, how much difference there would be. Don't get me wrong, we all know most bucks are going to lose some weight in November. I'm not really arguing against your point as much as making mine. Which is, pretty hard to tell from a couple of still pics. Either way, it's interesting. JMO.


----------



## sniper

HUBBHUNTER2 said:


> Still waiting for Sniper to produce these dozens for 4 yr olds.....


Lol.. Still waiting to control over a thousand acres...Please reread the post..

Sent from my LG-H871 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## mbrewer

Dish7 said:


> I'll take your word for it. I wonder if you were able to extend the neck and pull that front leg back to show the brisket on the bottom pick, how much difference there would be. Don't get me wrong, we all know most bucks are going to lose some weight in November. I'm not really arguing against your point as much as making mine. Which is, pretty hard to tell from a couple of still pics. Either way, it's interesting. JMO.


Anyone wanna take a stab at aging this one? The date is correct.


----------



## calhoun

Hillsdales Most Wanted said:


> What i see a lot of is guys saying a small 2.5 year old is only 1.5, especially if the deer is in the slp. Id guess 70+% of hunters would say this deer is 1.5 in both pics.
> View attachment 371791


I could see this happening easily, that’s why with the picture from the year before it gives you a clear picture. For my area that I hunt this buck would be passed by most hunters regardless of his age, just based on his antlers. This is why hopefully one day if I get to all age classes represented these pictures would be so helpfull on determining what bucks would be on the hit list, based on age not antler size!


----------



## cakebaker

how old?


----------



## LabtechLewis

Here's another pair that I think might be the same buck. Maybe 3YO to 4YO? 



















My records are shoddy prior to 2014, so I don't have anything from prior years.

I hope another one like this comes around in 2019!


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## NovemberWhitetailz

LabtechLewis said:


> Here's another pair that I think might be the same buck. Maybe 3YO to 4YO?
> 
> View attachment 371813
> 
> 
> View attachment 371811
> 
> 
> My records are shoddy prior to 2014, so I don't have anything from prior years.
> 
> I hope another one like this comes around in 2019!


I'd say yes, same deer. Based on time of year of the picture I feel its a 2.5 and 3.5. Especially considering the Nose, beams and chest all appear to be pretty thin for a 3.5 in the hard horned pic


----------



## mike hartges

The Moose continued.







View attachment 372939


----------



## calhoun

View attachment 372969
Some great progression pics guys! This is one of the oldest bucks that we’ve ever had, had 4 years of pics, I was just getting into having quality cameras, or I think I could of easily had him in 06 and 07. We did send his teeth in and he was 7 1/2 yold! He also had the biggest home range I’ve ever seen, easily covering 3-4 sq miles between summer and winter range. 
My dream is to one day have more then 1 every so many years that can live to this age! Would love to get to the point we’re there are multiple matures bucks every year that you just can’t catch up to and be able to document them to a ripe old age!


----------



## Muskegonbow

Im 100% sure this is the shed from the buck I shot this year. 90% sure it’s from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2.


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## Muskegonbow

Just noticed sniper got banned. That’s sucks hopefully it’s just temporary.


----------



## Liver and Onions

Muskegonbow said:


> Just noticed sniper got banned. That’s sucks hopefully it’s just temporary.


What the heck ?? I missed something big.

L & O


----------



## calhoun

Muskegonbow said:


> View attachment 374393
> Im 100% sure this is the shed from the buck I shot this year. 90% sure it’s from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2.


Do you have any trailcam pics of the deer?


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## Muskegonbow

calhoun said:


> Do you have any trailcam pics of the deer?


Yes. 2017


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## Muskegonbow

View attachment 374543
2018. Dressed 140 in mid October.


----------



## calhoun

V


Muskegonbow said:


> View attachment 374545
> View attachment 374549
> View attachment 374551
> View attachment 374543
> 2018. Dressed 140 in mid October.


This is a great example of great growth from one year to the next. Most people wouldn’t believe that’s the same deer with out the trailcam pics and injury to prove it! Interesting the injury didn’t effect his rack, could you tell what the injury was? Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Muskegonbow

If I had to guess. It looks like a broadhead right through the leg. 


calhoun said:


> V
> 
> This is a great example of great growth from one year to the next. Most people wouldn’t believe that’s the same deer with out the trailcam pics and injury to prove it! Interesting the injury didn’t effect his rack, could you tell what the injury was? Thanks for sharing!


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## lumpy0910

So I didn't read this whole thread, being 16 pages and all, but I am definitely interested in age. I sent the front teeth in on the buck I shot this year, came back 5.5, are you guys saying it is not accurate? I will post a couple pics. Hard to tell by the angle, but he is an 11pt. Shot in Ingham county


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## lumpy0910

For some reason I am having trouble posting pictures. Hopefully will get it worked out. I respect your opinions, and am interested in hearing your input.


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## LabtechLewis

lumpy0910 said:


> For some reason I am having trouble posting pictures. Hopefully will get it worked out. I respect your opinions, and am interested in hearing your input.


Do you have the jaw bone? Would be a nice addition to the AOTH and CA intel...


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## lumpy0910

LabtechLewis said:


> Do you have the jaw bone? Would be a nice addition to the AOTH and CA intel...


I left it with the skull when I turned it in for cwd testing unfortunately. Hindsight.....


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## lumpy0910

Anyone know why it keeps telling me there is a problem uploading my picture?


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## calhoun

lumpy0910 said:


> So I didn't read this whole thread, being 16 pages and all, but I am definitely interested in age. I sent the front teeth in on the buck I shot this year, came back 5.5, are you guys saying it is not accurate? I will post a couple pics. Hard to tell by the angle, but he is an 11pt. Shot in Ingham county


Cementum aging on the hole is very acurate, with the exception being young deer, deer that are not fully mature. I’ve spent a lot of time talking to Henry C. From deerage.com and he’s the one that pointed this out to me years ago. As far as your deer goes, the best way to give you a good idea on his age, is if you had or any neighbors had pictures of it over the years. If it’s a good buck there should be at least a few years of good trailcam pics of him if he’s truly 5 y. old. 
If you didn’t run trailcams or have acces to your neighbors then you have the best info your going to get!


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## Waif

lumpy0910 said:


> Anyone know why it keeps telling me there is a problem uploading my picture?


Server issue.(?)
It is being addressed by admin....


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## lumpy0910

calhoun said:


> Cementum aging on the hole is very acurate, with the exception being young deer, deer that are not fully mature. I’ve spent a lot of time talking to Henry C. From deerage.com and he’s the one that pointed this out to me years ago. As far as your deer goes, the best way to give you a good idea on his age, is if you had or any neighbors had pictures of it over the years. If it’s a good buck there should be at least a few years of good trailcam pics of him if he’s truly 5 y. old.
> If you didn’t run trailcams or have acces to your neighbors then you have the best info your going to get!


Great info! We don't run cameras, we are starting this season. Neighbors did have pictures of him last year, he was also very nice last year. I appreciate the info, makes sense about being more accurate on mature animals. When the issue with posting pictures gets fixed I will get a few up.


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## Downsea

Great thread! And great pics, loved looking through them! Haven't had the opportunity to put out cams for a couple years or hunt either for that matter.


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## lumpy0910




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## lumpy0910




----------



## QDMAMAN

lumpy0910 said:


> View attachment 376497


Pics of dead bucks don't constitute AOTH but this buck has a lot of the things I would expect a 5.5 yo buck to have.

Great buck, congrats!


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## calhoun

I would agree, but again it’s just a educated guess at this point. I have seen bucks with similar mass and body type that were only 3 yolds. With that being said there’s always the top for their age class and the bottom. The key is really trying to figure that out and with out the trailcam pics from year to year makes it tough to know for sure. 
Either way it’s a great buck! Congrats!


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## Liver and Onions

QDMAMAN said:


> Pics of dead bucks don't constitute AOTH but this buck has a lot of the things I would expect a 5.5 yo buck to have.
> 
> Great buck, congrats!


What does AOTH stand for ?

L & O


----------



## Waif

Liver and Onions said:


> What does AOTH stand for ?
> 
> L & O


https://www.noble.org/news/publicat...ugust/how-accurate-is-aging-deer-on-the-hoof/


----------



## lumpy0910

calhoun said:


> I would agree, but again it’s just a educated guess at this point. I have seen bucks with similar mass and body type that were only 3 yolds. With that being said there’s always the top for their age class and the bottom. The key is really trying to figure that out and with out the trailcam pics from year to year makes it tough to know for sure.
> Either way it’s a great buck! Congrats!


Totally agree, without yearly trail cam pics it's hard to be accurate. Either way it's fun to try to determine. I was happy with him, and definitely wasn't letting him walk.


----------



## QDMAMAN

Liver and Onions said:


> What does AOTH stand for ?
> 
> L & O


Aging On The Hoof


----------



## BWHUNTR

lumpy0910 said:


> View attachment 376497


Nice buck Lumpy! Did you have him scored?


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## lumpy0910

BWHUNTR said:


> Nice buck Lumpy! Did you have him scored?


Thanks, scored him with a buddy, grossed 145


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## BWHUNTR

lumpy0910 said:


> Thanks, scored him with a buddy, grossed 145


Great buck! Any interest in getting in Michigan's Big Game Records book? Buck like that deserves recognition.


----------



## mich buckmaster

mike hartges said:


> One more picture of Corkscrew at age 4-1/2.
> View attachment 369919


I have that same stand!!!!


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## mich buckmaster

johnhunter247 said:


> Oh yah, now that you mention that I remember something about that a while back. But Michigan bucks? I doubt there are many if any killing wild Michigan bucks have five that score over 700” total. I would easily have that but not Michigan deer. One Michigan buck would be in that qualification but the rest would come from Iowa and Missouri.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My dad and I both make the 700" club. It is a lot of hard work and DEFINITELY depends where you are hunting. There is NO WAY some will ever make the 700" club where deer of that caliber do not live. Yes, I hunt in zone 3, SW lower Michigan, but I have worked hard for it for 32 years. It also helps to shoot a couple bruiser 160's so the others can only be 130's, LOL. 

Dave


----------



## lumpy0910

BWHUNTR said:


> Great buck! Any interest in getting in Michigan's Big Game Records book? Buck like that deserves recognition.


Never really considered it, wouldn't know where to start. I am definitely recognizing him by putting him on my wall though. Actually should be ready in a few weeks, just talked to the taxidermist this week.


----------



## mbrewer

lumpy0910 said:


> Never really considered it, wouldn't know where to start. I am definitely recognizing him by putting him on my wall though. Actually should be ready in a few weeks, just talked to the taxidermist this week.


Your appreciation is the best recognition there is. Congrats.


----------



## BWHUNTR

lumpy0910 said:


> Never really considered it, wouldn't know where to start. I am definitely recognizing him by putting him on my wall though. Actually should be ready in a few weeks, just talked to the taxidermist this week.


Just a matter of getting together and measuring. If of interest give me a shout and be more than happy to give you specifics on process of entry into Commemorative Bucks of Michigan and or Pope and Young.


----------



## johnhunter247

BWHUNTR said:


> Just a matter of getting together and measuring. If of interest give me a shout and be more than happy to give you specifics on process of entry into Commemorative Bucks of Michigan and or Pope and Young.


I entered my life size mount. I had it scored by Jake Ellingher back in January or February of 2016. Killed in October of 2015. You have to pay to have it entered. I have killed several that I could have entered but that’s the only one I’ve entered. For some reason I thought you got a copy of the record book once a new one came out with your trophy in it from cbm that was in the cost of your entry fee. I’m not sure if that’s true but it’s what I thought. I never received a copy. How often are the cbm books printed with updated records? If I entered mine in February 2016 which edition would it be in?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BWHUNTR

johnhunter247 said:


> I entered my life size mount. I had it scored by Jake Ellingher back in January or February of 2016. Killed in October of 2015. You have to pay to have it entered. I have killed several that I could have entered but that’s the only one I’ve entered. For some reason I thought you got a copy of the record book once a new one came out with your trophy in it from cbm that was in the cost of your entry fee. I’m not sure if that’s true but it’s what I thought. I never received a copy. How often are the cbm books printed with updated records? If I entered mine in February 2016 which edition would it be in?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, there is a $30 entry fee and with that you get a one year membership. 

CBM's Big Game Records book goes to print every three years. The most recent, Eleventh edition just came out last fall. You can purchase current or previous books at any time. 

Last name, score and County killed and I can look it up for ya to confirm its in there.


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## calhoun

Been a awhile since I’ve been on, but would like to add some more progression pics from this season. The first buck is a buck I’ve been able to track from 1-4 years old. He did die this year, so this is the end of his story. 
































This buck had a large growth on his brisket at 2 and It did subside that winter, but was still visible at 3 and 4. I was able to see this deer after it was killed and was able to verify it still has some kind of growth under the skin in the brisket. I also had his right shed from 2, his broken horn at 3 and was able to see just how much he grew between the years. 2 to 3 was a good jump, 3 to 4 I figured he added about 10” mostly mass! He also flipped his split brow to the other side. 








He ended up with 138” gross score and dressed 193lbs on Nov 15th. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## calhoun

The 2 weeks prior to shooting the spike buck I had many run-ins with several 3 yolds that would have been much higher scoring bucks. 
First up is the big body 8, super excited to see this buck make it! Can’t wait to see him next year! From 1 1/2- 3 1/2 you can see the spike buck in the background of the first pic. 
























Here’s a run in with him during the rut he went by 3 times that am make sure your volume is up! 








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ieatshrooms

calhoun said:


> The two sheds to left are his last years sheds And finally, his finale pics!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Congrats! Any sign of injury when you were field dressing/processing him? I'm curious about the spike.


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## FREEPOP

calhoun said:


> Here’s a run in with him during the rut he went by 3 times that am make sure your volume is up!


He can't be very old, his voice hasn't changed


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## calhoun

Ieatshrooms said:


> Congrats! Any sign of injury when you were field dressing/processing him? I'm curious about the spike.


I processed the deer myself and there where no injury’s to the body. What was found was a cracked skull that was at the antler pedicle. 
I assume from fighting or rubbing trees. 
Here are a few pics of last years shed on the spike side. You can see it only grew a antler burr on the front side the crack was on the back of the skull and this where there was no burr. 

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## calhoun

Wanted to share the mount of the spike buck. I think most people would have passed on mounting this deer but for me and my goals for the property, this is truly the first buck I have proof of growing to 4 yold and killing. I have many bucks that score way higher then this deer but this is the one I cherish the most! The sheds from when he was a 3 yold is what is laying in front of him. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## calhoun

I will have a bunch of bucks to update this year four 4 yolds and a bunch 3 yolds! Here’s a pic of some of their sheds, found about half of the good ones! 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Botiz

Damn that’s a nice shed haul Calhoun!


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## Jdhunttrapfish

Now that's character, nice buck Calhoun


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## bradlutt

Those are nice sheds!!!

Sent from my SM-A115U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Muskegonbow

This buck showed up last year late October and was pretty visible on camera. I passed him twice during rifle season as a 2 1/2 year old. He had a somewhat wide subpar 4 point rack. He survived the season and disappeared in January. The only other bucks to survive was 5 different 1 1/2 year olds. I was excited for him to come back and see what he grew into as a 3 1/2z Well he came back and although I’m excited he likes my property during the fall his rack barely grew.


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## jiggin is livin

calhoun said:


> Wanted to share the mount of the spike buck. I think most people would have passed on mounting this deer but for me and my goals for the property, this is truly the first buck I have proof of growing to 4 yold and killing. I have many bucks that score way higher then this deer but this is the one I cherish the most! The sheds from when he was a 3 yold is what is laying in front of him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think that is an awesome Mount, especially with the history. I think bucks with character such as that one are a lot cooler than inches of antler.

Awesome deer and a beautiful mount.


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## jacksonmideerhunter

Muskegonbow said:


> This buck showed up last year late October and was pretty visible on camera. I passed him twice during rifle season as a 2 1/2 year old. He had a somewhat wide subpar 4 point rack. He survived the season and disappeared in January. The only other bucks to survive was 5 different 1 1/2 year olds. I was excited for him to come back and see what he grew into as a 3 1/2z Well he came back and although I’m excited he likes my property during the fall his rack barely grew.
> View attachment 789248
> View attachment 789249


Looks like he put it all into growing his body size, thats a pretty stout deer. His antlers might blow up next year if he makes it until then.


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## LabtechLewis

Muskegonbow said:


> This buck showed up last year late October and was pretty visible on camera. I was excited for him to come back and see what he grew into as a 3 1/2z
> View attachment 789249


Why do you think he's only 3YO this year?


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## Waif

Muskegonbow said:


> This buck showed up last year late October and was pretty visible on camera. I passed him twice during rifle season as a 2 1/2 year old. He had a somewhat wide subpar 4 point rack. He survived the season and disappeared in January. The only other bucks to survive was 5 different 1 1/2 year olds. I was excited for him to come back and see what he grew into as a 3 1/2z Well he came back and although I’m excited he likes my property during the fall his rack barely grew.
> View attachment 789248
> View attachment 789249


Any guesses the habitat browse quality where he winters? 
( Please , not specific coordinates as to a location.)
He's got a neck like a caribou. Maybe he winters way up North!


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## Muskegonbow

LabtechLewis said:


> Why do you think he's only 3YO this year?


Because of my sightings of him last year along with trail cam pictures he looked like a typical 2 year old for the area. But nothings 100%.


















LabtechLewis said:


> Why do you think he's only 3YO this year?


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## Muskegonbow

Waif said:


> Any guesses the habitat browse quality where he winters?
> ( Please , not specific coordinates as to a location.)
> He's got a neck like a caribou. Maybe he winters way up North!


No idea where he goes. My property is in a fertile ag area. But a mile away is miles of high canopy sandy Public land. He was gone for nine months. I’m running three cell cams and after 6 weeks of not getting a single buck on camera they started flooding in last weekend.


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## Theguy

smith34 said:


> One of my customers, south of the state line, wonders if he may have done himself more harm than good....He is a lot like Calhoun, and runs many cameras, and has access to many more acres than the average Michigander...he has gotten the age class up to where there are multiple 5.5 and older deer running around. Sounds great, but he’s finding they are all tearing each other up! One buck lost over 50” of antler this year (and was still almost 130”!) He’s still debating if it’s a good problem or bad that he’s created there! Lol


Interesting. 
I remember some guys on Midwest whitetail down in Ohio got their buck to doe ration 1:1. 
They said all their big bucks were leaving their property to go where the does were.


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## Whitetail Freak

Theguy said:


> Interesting.
> I remember some guys on Midwest whitetail down in Ohio got their buck to doe ration 1:1.
> They said all their big bucks were leaving their property to go where the does were.


I’m noticing the same as smith’s customer. Had these 3 around last year. Needless to say my dads bucks cape was gored so bad that my taxi had to throw it away. My taxi also said there was so much blood on this deers spike and head, it probably wasn’t his. The spike side was snapped off.
Number 1 lived and is bigger this year
Number 2 my friend/neighbor shot
Number 3 my dad shot
1
















2








3


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## kisherfisher

Great mount and history Calhoun ! You certainly are doing something right ! Kudos for sharing !


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## Muskegonbow

Muskegonbow said:


> This buck showed up last year late October and was pretty visible on camera. I passed him twice during rifle season as a 2 1/2 year old. He had a somewhat wide subpar 4 point rack. He survived the season and disappeared in January. The only other bucks to survive was 5 different 1 1/2 year olds. I was excited for him to come back and see what he grew into as a 3 1/2z Well he came back and although I’m excited he likes my property during the fall his rack barely grew.
> View attachment 789248
> View attachment 789249


He looks 3 1/2 on the ground too. 170 # dressed. 18 1/2 outside spread. Probably about 90 inch rack.


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## Carp 1

on any given year, how many bucks 2.5 or older are you tracking?


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## mbrewer

Bucman said:


> I think way more live then we think. but with smaller parcels its hard to inventory the same deer throughout their life. i think you would need sections contingent to each other to really know. We've had them show back up after a couple years from wherever they were. I figure about a 3 mile radius in our area. guy shot a nice 3 yr old 2 miles from me I have early oct pics of that deer.
> 
> Disclaimer; if you share pics with lots of neighbors it can help. FYI we don't as they tend to hate after kills...


I've seen the same thing and had it happen again this year. A regular for a couple years then gone for a couple before returning again. Each time, the returning buck ruled the roost.


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## calhoun

Carp 1 said:


> on any given year, how many bucks 2.5 or older are you tracking?


That’s a good question! When I first started this I would be luckily to have 1 or 2. The last 3 or 4 years things have really gotten interesting. This year by far was best to date. If I had the room I would love to post every buck that visited the farm this year. I haven’t counted them but I would say 35 plus that are 2 or older. This year, there was 10 that I knew I would recognize from last year. All of them showed up this year and I was able to document their growth. I’ve also have been redefining the program over all those years and have learned a tremendous amount! I believe with the help of great neighbors and a great layout this has really helped advance the age structure. 


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## Carp 1

I didn't keep track of all the 2.5s but we probably had 15+ that were 3.5 or older. I think at least 5 made it, 7 that I know of where killed, and a couple are mia as of right now, hoping they show back up. This one I believe is 3.5 as we had pics of him last year and through this summer and up towards the end of Oct but we haven't seen him since.


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## calhoun

Wanted to share a few more bucks from this year, the first one, I’ve already posted pics of him. He’s 6 point with a pretty good tear in his left ear. This buck was photographed fighting another 3 yold buck during gun season 
































This buck was photographed regularly on the farm, he has ran with the buck above that he’s fighting with in the past and for some reason this year they where not in the same bachelor group. For about 3 weeks or so I did not see the 6 point not sure if the injury happened from this fight or not but it’s certainly possible. 








You can see here he’s got really nasty injury, large patch of his neck just hanging. After seeing this I wasn’t sure if it was a gun shot wound or from fighting. He had moved onto a food plot and was photographed there constantly until the December 26th, that was his last picture I got of him. Fast forward to this past weekend and unfortunately he died from his injury’s. 


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## calhoun

These are the pictures of him dead, after looking him over good I do believe he was injured from fighting. 
























You can see multiple holes in his head and neck from tines. ****** way to die. The birds had started eating around his neck and that’s why it looks so bad there. 


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## calhoun

This next buck is one I’ve been watching since 2019, he was a 6 point as a 2 yold, 7 point as 3 yold and now 8 as 4 yold. 
























I had multiple run ins with this buck during the season and almost got a shot at him on the 14th of November. He got the better of me that night!
I didn’t gun hunt this year just bow hunted during gun season and on the last weekend I had him come out feed next to me. I looked at him and decided to let him go. I figured he’s made it this far into gun season he should live. This would be the first buck that I would have pictures of from 2 1/2 to make it to 5 if he lives! 








Pic of him from that night, luck was on his side and mine and he did indeed live! So hopefully next year I’ll have pictures of a 5 1/2 yold Michigan buck! 


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## buckhunter14

As always, your inventory is truly impressive. Thanks for sharing and looking forward to more as this winter progresses!


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## Carp 1

At what point do you consider a buck a shooter? Do you have a certain age regardless of what you think a buck score?


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## calhoun

Carp 1 said:


> At what point do you consider a buck a shooter? Do you have a certain age regardless of what you think a buck score?


My goal is 4 yolds, regardless of what they score. I also really try to get them with a bow, haven’t gun hunted much the last few years. Over the years I would say I’ve gotten way more into getting them to live then shooting them. My end goal is to prove the deer in my part of Michigan are no different then the ones that come from all these big buck states around us. Hence the title of the thread! Hopefully this thread will provide an educational tool for guys that are truly trying to manage the deer herd.


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## throughtheice88

Love this thread...always look forward to the updates. Seeing sometimes 3 or 4 years in a row of growth is serious motivation and awesome to see. Keep up the great work!


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## Carp 1

We were able to find both sides


Carp 1 said:


> Just to add a little more insight. Our property (family farm) is in Branch County and consists of 585 acres, roughly 380 of which is farm land. Though not part of any official Co-Op, our property adjoins a couple other farms that practice restraint on shooting smaller bucks, all total, encompassing roughly 1500 acres. Growing up on the farm and spending the majority of my adult life there (until last November when my wife talked me into moving to a lake house) I've been blessed with the opportunity to study the local heard for many years. I'm certainly not an expert but it has been way more than a hobby for me. Through observing bucks in the fields, studying trail cams and collecting sheds I've been able to watch several bucks over the course of multiple years. Similar to you, I can only recall a handful of bucks that I know were 5 years old or older, the above buck being one of them. I'd agree, the vast majority of bucks don't live that long, even when you have a seemingly large section of land under control. Their home ranges are simply to big and their travels eventually put them in harms way. The buck from above (we nicknamed him Sleepy Joe) is a rare exception in that he is more of a homebody, at least during Oct through March. I have 3 years worth of sheds from 2018-19-20 and his rack just hasn't done much. I have never seen him while hunting and only have a few pics during daylight.
> 
> 
> View attachment 804545
> 
> We have had pics of him over the last week so I know he made it another season so I'm looking forward to searching for his sheds. It seems the last few years we have had more bucks that have made little jumps over the 2.5-4.5 year range than big jumps, and I'm just wondering why that is and if anyone else is seeing similar trends?


My son and I were able to find both sides from "Sleepy Joe". This gives us 4 years worth of sheds from him. I scored him at 110" given a 15" spread, just one of those deer that will never have a big rack. Regardless of the score, I'm excited to add to his story.


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## calhoun

With the season fast approaching wanted to share a few pics for motivation and education on what a year can do! The first buck is 1 1/2 yold 5 point, first glance you think he most likely will be nothing special. Let’s face it we have all heard “I killed him because he wasn’t going to turn into anything”.
















This buck clearly has issue with his right eye, it only reflects the inner most part. I have 100’s of pics of this buck always the same thing. Left eye reflects normal and right eye is just the center. It’s always hard for me to track 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 because of the drastic changes. This is just another example of why it’s so hard to do. 
















He now is a really nice 11 point, these pics are first week of August so he still had some growing to do. If this deer live to maturity he’s a world-class Whitetail. 


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## springIstrutfallIrut

Hell yeah that's a massive jump. Let em go let em grow and put the does in the freezer!


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