# GSP - growling problem!



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Birdhuntr1 said:


> Possibly, none of us here know, and the current owner may not either.
> 
> You may take exception with this training technique, and most definately it is one best left to those who know EXACTLY what they are doing, but when employed by those select few, it is a very effective method. For those people it bothers, that's okay. It simply means you are a person who understands your own limitations, nothing wrong with that, in fact it's good. But to cast aspersions because you aren't qualified or capable of a particular method is just small.
> 
> I won't mention names, but I know of one person who wouldn't think of using a "come to Jesus talk" with their dog, yet trusted someone who knew what they were doing to employ the method. The positive results will be winning ribbons for a few more years!


I understand and totally agree that there is a time and place for being firm with a dog. I also agree that in most cases having some experience with being firm will help with the odds of that method being effective. Ive been harsh at times and when "I" finally calm down ive generally realized the hard hand was more for "me" than any effectiveness on the dog.

I suppose my conern was with the brief statement of "beat the snot" out of the dog could have been interpreted into encouraging the owner to do that. That post would have been better written with the additional stuff you added later. It makes more sense

Though people use it as a training method i would bet the farm that there are more problems caused by being abusive than successes.


Im just shocked at how many people are willing to give up on a dog so quickly because it "growled". I mean......its a dog! It can't speak. Sick dogs growl, injured dogs growl, tired dogs growl. Hell i would prob think something was wrong with my dog if it didn't growl at some of the stuff ive seen.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

GSP Gal said:


> I've been thinking about this all evening. ---
> 
> I do alot of this for the local veterinarian, and I had to for myself and my daughter.
> 
> ...


Exactomundo!:evil:ne_eye:


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## tonya0817 (Apr 20, 2010)

Rugergundog said:


> Im just shocked at how many people are willing to give up on a dog so quickly because it "growled". I mean......its a dog! It can't speak. Sick dogs growl, injured dogs growl, tired dogs growl. Hell i would prob think something was wrong with my dog if it didn't growl at some of the stuff ive seen.



I understand I am not nearly as experienced as most of you are on here. I just can't imagine giving up on a dog that easily as well. 
I know children are involved and that takes the decision to a whole another level. But I believe it was GSPGal, that said it earlier that she worked with the dog and child to overcome it. I believe she is a professional(if not she's pretty darn close) and probably did all of her training in that scenario with extreme caution too.

I'm not trying to give too much advice, as I have never been in that situation, I just couldn't see myself giving up on a dog that quickly.


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## WeimsRus (Oct 30, 2007)

birdshooter said:


> you say its when the dogs asleep try leaving it alone , wake me up when im asleep i bet i do more then growl


ROFLMFAO, having been a Merchant Mariner I can tell you that you NEVER want to wake me quickly from a sound sleep. Had a fellow shipmate that thought it was funny to kick my bunk with his steel toe, for a wake up call. Yep was funny until he did it when I was sound asleep after a 16 hour shift, he kicked the bunk, and I had him by the neck in my "tighty white's" After this, he would make sure I was 100% awake before entering my room. Sorry, but this is a reaction from my bad experiances when growing up and my Better Half won't even wake me up when I fall asleep on the couch. Know this might, by some people, be "Apples compared to Oranges", but some might get my drift.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I can't believe how many people are so callus about their kids safety over a dog. I guess what really drives me nuts is how many of these problems could have been avoided. When my kids have friends over the dogs go in their crates. When we have babysitters dog go in their crates. If I get a growl out of a dog it gets slapped. 

Bottom line is avoid problems and nip them in the bud asap and you won't have as much heartache in your life.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

IMHO, the biggest problem with owning a dog is that it is so easy to do so. Few take it as seriously as they should. It isn't as if we're all born with an innate ability to coexist with canines, yet MANY do nothing to prepare for doing so.

We had dogs in the house my entire childhood. And I GUARANTEE you that my dad read NOTHING about how to train/relate/socialize a dog. He just didn't have the leisure time that I have been blessed with. In hind sight, I can see that many of the things we did with the dogs were completely wrong. The fact that all but one dog was a joy to be around is a testament to just how resilient a dog can be.

I have wonderful memories about our dogs as a kid/adolescent (I won't bore you with them). So much so that it was important to me that our children have a dog at a young age.

I also have memories of getting bitten by one of our dogs as a kid. She bit my foot as I rubbed her tummy with it. Still have the scar. All the warning signs were there as I look back. We did everything wrong. My dad got home from work that night, took her out and dispatched her. 

I respect my dad for doing so. It was the right thing to do. She was too far gone and my dad sure as hell wasn't going to hire a pro., even if he could have afforded it.

I regret that the dog lost her life due to our inattention to her training and development.

I am thankful the scar is on my foot.

Learn and move forward. But if there is any sign of aggression, don't let your love for the dog cloud your judgement. Sometimes you have to give up on a dog, but don't ever give up on dogs....


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Here's my advice.
> 
> 1. Don't f$%& with the dog when he's sleeping and don't let your kids do that either.
> 2. Talk to a trainer who can help you and avoid any advice here.
> ...


 WCH, at this time there are around 35 dogs in my kennel. There is not a one that I couldn't wake up from a sound sleep or take his food bowl or blanket or whatever, from them and worry about getting a growl from them. It has been a long time since I have had one that would growl at me for those things. The ones that have tried it were delt with on the spot, and it was not gently. It usually only took one of those sessions and that attitude went away.
You try to make this out to be a normal reaction from the typical dog. It ain't. Since when is a dog allowed to react like that, comfort zone or not. For that matter, since when do they have a comfort zone.
The only exception I can accept in this posters issue would be if it is one of those dogs that does growl as a way to communicate. I have seen a couple like that over the years that would, as posted earlier, have a slight growl/groan as he was rubbed or petted or whatever.
It does not sound like this is thissue here, but I have not seen the dog either. Its hard to interpret its behavior by reading about it.
Bottom line there should be ZERO tolerance for aggression and growling is showing aggression.
And YES you can breed that out of them.


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

Mine isn't pure GSP, Smokey is 1/2 GSP and 1/2 English Setter. (See avatar) He's about three and a half and I have never even heard him growl. Well actually that wouldn't be accurate. When we're playing, I'll hear a playful growl but that's it. I have NEVER heard an aggressive growl out of him. I could go to him any time he's sleeping and roust him and he won't make a sound. He could be in his crate or his favorite spot, it doesn't matter. He could be chomping on a nice thick 1" T-Bone steak and I could walk over and take it from him without as much as a lip curl. I have never even seen any sign of aggression from him toward anybody. 

I hope you can work through it and solve the problem but it scares me to see an aggressive dog in a home with kids.

Good luck!

John


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

crosswind said:


> WCH, at this time there are around 35 dogs in my kennel. There is not a one that I couldn't wake up from a sound sleep or take his food bowl or blanket or whatever, from them and worry about getting a growl from them. It has been a long time since I have had one that would growl at me for those things. The ones that have tried it were delt with on the spot, and it was not gently. It usually only took one of those sessions and that attitude went away.
> You try to make this out to be a normal reaction from the typical dog. It ain't. Since when is a dog allowed to react like that, comfort zone or not. For that matter, since when do they have a comfort zone.
> The only exception I can accept in this posters issue would be if it is one of those dogs that does growl as a way to communicate. I have seen a couple like that over the years that would, as posted earlier, have a slight growl/groan as he was rubbed or petted or whatever.
> It does not sound like this is thissue here, but I have not seen the dog either. Its hard to interpret its behavior by reading about it.
> ...


Great post. Those are my thoughts to a T. Not waking a dog up because of fear it might act aggressive. Not in my house.


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## D_Hunter (Aug 22, 2004)

Thanks everyone for your comments.

I feel I need to explain a few things better.

#1 - My wife went to pet Odie when he was laying on his bed/pad he crawled. She then put a hand around his muzzle, rolled him on his side (submissive posture) and was petting him - talking calmly to him to see if he would stop. It took several minutes before he did. As soon as she was done we talked and both agreed that what she had just done was most likely "rewarding" the behavior. We haven't done that since.

#2 - Both my wife and I grew up with dogs. Professionally trained -not even close, but we both agree that any one of us or the children should be able to walk up to the dog at ANY time awake or sleeping and pet them without any type of behavior from the dog that would cause alarm to us.

#3 - This only appears to be a problem with him on his bed/pad. When he is eating, drinking, playing with a chew toy or what ever, any of us (kids included) can reach over and take it from him without even a look out of him.

1 of the things we were told to try is just stand over him if/when he crowls - arms crossed - with a stern look on our face. We were told that this will show him displeasure with his behavior while also showing him dominance (ours). I tried twice now - each time it took less than 1 minute for him to stop growling and then actually stand up and -sneak - towards me - sit in front of me and "knudge" me to pet him.

In the 3 months we've had Odie. We have taken him to dog obedience training with myself, my wife and our oldest daughter (11yrs old) taking turns at the class. Any of us can get him to sit/stay - including the 2 yr old. My wife has even been taking him to "Doga"...yea, I roll my eyes too - but she feels it's a great way to bond with him. He travels in the car great. He gets along with my sister-in-laws dogs great. We've even been able to teach him to swim (yes, he was afraid of the water when we got him..now he runs into it)

Like I originally said, 98% of the time he is a great dog. He is even gotten to the point where our 2 yr old can walk upto him, call his name and then give him a hug (yes, we are right there watching).

We aren't ready to give up on him at this point - but my number #1 priority has to be the protection of my children and my wife.


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## D_Hunter (Aug 22, 2004)

I've forgotten to mention that this problem started about 2 weeks ago or so.

Nothing has changed on where his cage and/or bed is located. I was actually wodering if it's Odie's "last stand" excepting that WE are his new owners and dominate over him??

Of course, I'm only guessing here.........


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## georgeb (Sep 17, 2008)

I have spent the last 20 years with GSP's. To me they are the most intense of the hunting dogs, few if any breeds are faster, try harder and can hunt anything at any time. I know i am biased, but that is what i love about GSP's

My wife and I took in a 1.5 year old GSP that had been tied to a post for most of her life. The first day we got her she growled at my wife when she was putting her food bowl down and the dog got put in her place right then and there. My wife is a certified trainer and did that out of pure anger at the dog, she later admitted to me that she really should have thought that through first, but it worked. We have had Dezi-Rose for 6 wonderfull years, but she was almost put down because of that. 

Please do not do what my wife did. 

It could have turned out badly and we are very blessed it did not, both for the wonderfull friend we now have and the possibility of serious harm to my wife if it went the other way. I have seen many GSP fights and they usually are to the death of 1 of the dogs. We have had to seperate a few fights and my wife and I both have bite marks to prove it. 

A friend of mine said it best to describe a GSP, "they burn a little hotter than most" IMHO truer words have never been spoken!


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## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

Back in the day, I was working with other trainer as an apprectice if you will, using William Koehler's method for training dogs..

We had a beautiful Doberman Pinscher come into a class, for training, and she was a not a very confident dog, and went through the motions of training. Then one day she growled at her owner. The owner was instructed to grab the dog and hang it up in the air by the choke chain.

This is S.O.P. with this popular method at the time. The owner timed the corrections perfectly, and then the trainer I was working for timed the corrections perfectly also. The dog kept getting worse, so you hang the dog until it just about passes out....

The dog complied for the next two weeks. Then in class one day, it launched towards a woman in class and ripped her flank wide open. The dog was dispatched immediately, and was written off as a poorly bred dog. 

We have come along way, but that day is just as vivid as if it happened yesterday. The dog learned to comply, but the stress just resurfaced somewhere else....


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

crosswind said:


> The ones that have tried it were delt with on the spot, and it was not gently. It usually only took one of those sessions and that attitude went away.


But the bottom line is the dog(s) *did* growl at you. You had to establish your place in the hierarchy with the dog after the fact. Just because you and the dog have an understanding doesn't mean that dog does with everyone else. If the owners of those dogs have kids and those kids have a friend come over and they stick their hand in the dish you can in no way reasonably expect that dog to react the same way as it would for you without A LOT of exposure to such circumstances with many different people. Some dogs are better about it than others, but you should never assume the best outcome.




crosswind said:


> You try to make this out to be a normal reaction from the typical dog. It ain't.


No, my point is they aren't little kids in fur suits and when startled they can be unpredictable. Even the best of them.



crosswind said:


> Since when is a dog allowed to react like that, comfort zone or not. For that matter, since when do they have a comfort zone.


Under ideal circumstance the dog shouldn't feel threatened while it's on its bed or in its crate. But if the dog hasn't been worked with you can rest assured it will have established what it thinks is its comfort zone.



crosswind said:


> The only exception I can accept in this posters issue would be if it is one of those dogs that does growl as a way to communicate. I have seen a couple like that over the years that would, as posted earlier, have a slight growl/groan as he was rubbed or petted or whatever.
> It does not sound like this is thissue here, but I have not seen the dog either. Its hard to interpret its behavior by reading about it.
> Bottom line there should be ZERO tolerance for aggression and growling is showing aggression.


Agree



crosswind said:


> And YES you can breed that out of them.


Please name one dog breed for me that doesn't have the potential to bite.


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## D_Hunter (Aug 22, 2004)

Well last night I tried something a bit different.

While sitting in the living room I brought Odie's bed right up next to me. I than called him over and him lie down. The entire time I pet him and spoke real easy. I also rewarded him not growling with a treat every so often. We were all able to approach him while on his bed and pet him. 

I then began to play with him - after about 30 minutes I again had him come back over to his bed and started petting him - no problems once again.

Well, later on - when we ALL were heading to bed - I walked upto him while on his bed, called his name while crouching down to pet him - nothing - just a look of 1 tired dog. I gave him 1 more treat and some good praise.

This morning I tried once again before going to work - again nothing more out of him than a look. Another treat - a trip outside and a bowl of food all with praise.


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## WeimsRus (Oct 30, 2007)

BIGSP said:


> I can't believe how many people are so callus about their kids safety over a dog. I guess what really drives me nuts is how many of these problems could have been avoided. When my kids have friends over the dogs go in their crates. When we have babysitters dog go in their crates. If I get a growl out of a dog it gets slapped.
> 
> Bottom line is avoid problems and nip them in the bud asap and you won't have as much heartache in your life.


So, trying not to read anything between the lines. You trust your dogs with your kids, but not with strangers and friends? Unless these are protection dogs, you shouldn't have to do this. IMHO, when you get a visitor in your home, as soon as you allow entry to the person the dog should know this person is allowed to be there by you and your family. As the Alpha you and your family shouldn't have to worry about any aggression when you are present. Babysitters I can see, because you arn't there and if they have to correct your kids this could result in protective aggression from the dog. How are you going to deal with your kids when they get old enough to growl back or mouth off. Negitive reinforcement is frowned upon by the current Laws. 

What really amazes me, is most of the posters who recommend negitive reinforcement training and getting a dog put down for the smallest aggressive behavior is because of children they have in the home. Have, or had Kids and are doing this for the "safety" of them and their family. 

This makes me wonder how you train your kids. I was trained by a smack when I forgot to take out the trash on pick-up day, a kick of my bed at 5 am when it snowed so I could shovel and he could get to work, and many other negitive training methods. This only resulted in him getting a broken nose and three ribs, the day I got fed up at 17 years old. You can say this is different because you are talking about a dog, but I wouldn't be responding to this post today if I hadn't been rescued by a family who used different training methods. 

D Hunter, sounds like you are on the correct path. Don't leave this dog unsupervised with your family, until you are 100% positive this issue is fixed. 3 months is a little soon to fix any mistakes previous owners have made, has taken me years with some of our rescues. Then I wouldn't trust them 100% if I wasn't there to supervise. This is why a rescue isn't the best choice for some dog owners.


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## D_Hunter (Aug 22, 2004)

I had the last 4 days off and spent a good deal of time "working" with Odie.

One of the first things I/we tried is bringing in his bed/pad into the living room while we watch TV. First I had it right next to me. Once Odie laid in the bed - I just rested my hand on him. He was content with this. With a bit of praise and a "special" treat - he was rewarded. I done this several times before having my wife and then the kids do the same.

We also moved his bed next to our bed at night, again so I could reach down and pet him. If/when he crawled, I stood over him, arms crossed with a stern look. It only took a minute before he would stop. Then he was given lots of praise and "special" treat.

I won't say the problem is "fixed" - but I will say it's gotten better.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

I don't have time to read all the replies so if I repeat what someone else has already said sorry. 

I am concerned about how you are handling it. Laying him on his side is good. But talking to him softly and petting him may only reinforce the growling behavior. The point of rolling a dog into a submissive position is to make it uncomfortable for him. Not reward him with loving pets and soft voices. 

I would put him on his side and let him no that I do not accept this behavior. I would tell him in a firm voice settle! or cut it out! or NO! 

Please don&#8217;t beat him like others have suggested this will only make it worse.

Don&#8217;t over look the possibility that he may also have something going on medically. My dad&#8217;s Brit would have seizers and he would act like that every time he came out of a seizer.

Good luck with your dog.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Oh here we go again. Agression is a genetic trait not a dog breed trait sure some breeds are more prone for it. poor breeding can equal an aggressive dog. If someone breeds an aggressive dog that is poor breeding.
> 
> I would have thought you knew this west coast
> I can name certain lines in breeds that are aggressive


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> Oh here we go again. Agression is a genetic trait not a dog breed trait sure some breeds are more prone for it. poor breeding can equal an aggressive dog. If someone breeds an aggressive dog that is poor breeding.
> 
> I would have thought you knew this west coast
> I can name certain lines in breeds that are aggressive


OK, I'll rephrase the question.

Please show me one dog that doesn't have the potential to bite if pushed.

I prefer to manage my exposure to risk and not ever trust that a dog won't bite me or, in the case of one of mine, someone it doesn't know.

Perhaps you have money to burn on a potential lawsuit or hospital bills resulting from a dog bite. I do not.


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## ScottSki (Sep 6, 2004)

I had the same issue, I agree you may want to "turn up the heat", next time it crowls, grab the dog by the collar hard core and walk it outside and lock it up in the garage, or just toss it outside for a while...sometimes a month of "giving it a tune-up" does work.
Also, try running/training it more, with an e-collar, when it doesn't listen, correct the dog. Spending time with a dog showing it you're the boss can help too. Every dog is different... watching that Cesar dog trainer guy on TV is amazing sometimes, he get's into the dogs mind and works wonders, send it to him! LOL


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## denyag (Aug 27, 2006)

My GWP is allowed to sleep on our bed (be nice) and reacts that way towards my wife at times (growls not bite). I recently read an article that said the dog feels he is the pack leader (at least higher then the wife). I dont remember the solution except dont let her on the bed (dog not wife).
I found a good resourse at DOBBS Training Libraries. They have techniques for all types of dogs and situations. Pointers Flushers House Guard etc.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

denyag said:


> My GWP is allowed to sleep on our bed (be nice) and reacts that way towards my wife at times (growls not bite). I recently read an article that said the dog feels he is the pack leader (at least higher then the wife). I dont remember the solution except dont let her on the bed (dog not wife).
> I found a good resourse at DOBBS Training Libraries. They have techniques for all types of dogs and situations. Pointers Flushers House Guard etc.


My 2 cent, First you need to let the dog know it's you choice of who is allowed on the bed. When he growls roll the dog over on the bed and make him submit. Tell him settle as you hold him down once he relaxes you can tell him good and take your hands off. Your wife also needs to do this with him starting some where else other than the bed first. Once your wife regains her position in the pack then she can try making the dog submit on the bed. Another way your wife can assert dominance over your dog is to have your wife hand feed the dog.


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