# Coverdog Retriever Brag thread



## jimmyjette14

oh taaah, so what do you call a cover dog


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## dauber

N M Mechanical said:


> Ok I will bite. I want a lab that is 50-60 pounds when in top shape and come out of field trial stock like my Pow pup because they will show me drive, endurance and should have the mental strength to take trianing. If there parents can take the rigours of field trials they can handle 60-90 days in the grouse woods. My pup flushed close to 300-400 grouse and had XX killed over him plus seen the duck marsh a dozen times. If they have the blood I will give it the bird contacts. I took the bait
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks! That's perfect. Now hopefully the others will pipe in and give others who are intersted in this type of dog some more info and knowledge. I'm not interested in debating the pro's and con's. I just want a place where this can be put out in the open and discussed without having to poke into the Spaniel Corner and nit-pick on that cast is a waste of energy, that dog could never find a "wild bird" and my dog is 1000 times better than yours plus it can hunt 1000 times longer. 

So here is a home for yous. Have at it, I'll go back to the Spaniel corner and hide out there. Sorry to the original "Coverdog" people, but this is what was told to us on the Spaniel corner is the only way to know if your dog can hunt wild birds. Hope yous accept my apology.
Steve


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## Socks

N M Mechanical said:


> Ok I will bite. I want a lab that is 50-60 pounds when in top shape and come out of field trial stock like my Pow pup because they will show me drive, endurance and should have the mental strength to take trianing. If there parents can take the rigours of field trials they can handle 60-90 days in the grouse woods. My pup flushed close to 300-400 grouse and had XX killed over him plus seen the duck marsh a dozen times. If they have the blood I will give it the bird contacts. I took the bait
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well said and X2.



jimmyjette14 said:


> oh taaah, so what do you call a cover dog


I was kind of wondering the same thing.


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## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> Ok I will bite. I want a lab that is 50-60 pounds when in top shape and come out of field trial stock like my Pow pup because they will show me drive, endurance and should have the mental strength to take trianing. If there parents can take the rigours of field trials they can handle 60-90 days in the grouse woods. My pup flushed close to 300-400 grouse and had XX killed over him plus seen the duck marsh a dozen times. If they have the blood I will give it the bird contacts. I took the bait
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'll take the bait too.

Nick,

What are you thoughts on Range, Control, and development? IE How do you start a young Flushing Dog on Great Lakes Ruffed Grouse?

Gundogguy coined the term "Cover Dog Retriever" it has zero following to my knowledge outside of the grabassery of M-S Upland Forums. I own flushing dogs first, they happen to be small, fast, athletic (in my opinion) Labradors of the Yellow Variety. 

I don't see flushing dog discussions as breed vs. breed, their is significant variance in performance (all encompassing) within a litter of heavily line bred dogs let alone making generalizations about an entire segment or type within a breed.

I pick the dog first for a variety of attributes and the breed second. For me it starts with the right dog, and then works towards the Handler who does or does not do the training, exposure. After that you can start to pick a breed, and a line within that breed. 

I'm more concerned about the individual dogs performance than I am the breed, I own Labs and I bring them along in a fashion that I've learned about from others and boot leather, a method that works for me and the style in which I hunt. I am confident in what I desire in a flushing dog for Grouse Hunting, it's slightly different than what I would want if I lived on the Prairie. I would not hesitate to start any breed of flushing dog in the same fashion that I start my labs with the goal being (admittedly with adjustments to the dog itself) a dog that hunts in a pleasing fashion for myself. 

I like any dog that can lay it down day after day on wild birds, pointer or flusher or both (sticky flushers are some the deadliest wild bird dogs I've ever seen); a dog that can produce in all weather conditions from heat to a foot of snow, a dog that can handle birds when it's dry and wet, can make seamless transition from Great Lakes Ruffs to Prairie Pheasants. I like a fast, quick, animated dog, a dog that is tuff with lots of endurance, a dog that can pace itself for the conditions,one that in the heart of it's career is a consistent performer days after days after seasons. But it's as much about me as the dog, I'm selling the dog short if I don't know where to park and how to pattern birds, if I don't put the dog in a position to enhance it's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses. This is the triangle of success that I wrote about in a recent RGS article, matching the right cover to the right dog to the right handler. 

In my experience there are limitations to any dog, and hunter. I seek to eliminate to the best of my ability those limitations; but as I age the reality is I will become more limiting than my canine partner, at that point I may work to find balance again in a dog, then a breed. 

The past decade my brother and I have experienced a lot of success (you can define success how ever you'd like) in the wild bird hunting arena, we know what we believe through boot leather and well time advice from mentors, we've hunted with dozens of different dogs and people. I've attended various field trials for Retrievers, Spaniels, and Pointing breeds, been fortunate enough to hunt and train with some of the finest most respected Professional Trainers in our state. Spent time with real killers in the woods and their dogs, sought out, hunted with, and consulted with one of the states finest DVM's. We use what works for us, I hate BxxSxxT when I read it, you'll never convince me that finding liberated bird after liberated bird in a hay field crosses over to handling hundreds of grouse for the gun a season. It has it's place and time in the development of a dog, but at some point there is a point of diminishing returns on that activity IMO. But when I comment it's born of 100 days a year in the grouse woods and time on the prairie. You can like what I write or think I'm full of ****, but come September 15th next year, you'll find me and my dogs doing what we love to the best of our ability come heavy bag or light at the end the day; that's wild bird hunting.




> Thanks! That's perfect. Now hopefully the others will pipe in and give others who are intersted in this type of dog some more info and knowledge. I'm not interested in debating the pro's and con's. I just want a place where this can be put out in the open and discussed without having to poke into the Spaniel Corner and nit-pick on that cast is a waste of energy, that dog could never find a "wild bird" and my dog is 1000 times better than yours plus it can hunt 1000 times longer.



Steve,

You read on the internet this that and the other thing, then you hear the rest of the story. I ever tell you about the three hunters from Michigan that lined up a pay to play farm in the Dakota's, right in the prime of the season. They were in South Dakota, in an area famous for some of the highest Pheasant Densities per mile in North America, in a season that I think was the Highest Pheasant Harvest of the Modern Era. Well they took two of these brag Cockers and one or two dogs that pointed. At the end of 5 days of hunting, they came home with the skunk, a big ZERO, but wait, has Harvey said there is more to the story, oh they found birds and knocked down 14, but never recovered a one. 

You then read about these dogs online, you'd think the story above could not be real, but it was. When I write or speak on my dogs, I can promise you one thing, I speak the truth of what they are capable of and nothing more.

My point being, does this story reflect on the Cockers as a breed? Hell NO, it reflects on those two dogs and nothing more.


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## Worm Dunker

Not sure if this post is ment to be a joke or not. I can't be the only guy on here who has hunted over a cover dog CH. My buddy and I took a group of guys to areas we hunt. There were 5 ch. 3 RU. CH and a RU. Invatational ch and they all retrieved. Sure they didn't all retrieve as good as a labs because cover dog guys don't just stand and wait for the dog to bring the bird back. Thats just waisting good hunting time.


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## k9wernet

Steelheadfred said:


> But it's as much about me as the dog, I'm selling the dog short if I don't know where to park and how to pattern birds, if I don't *put the dog in a position to enhance it's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses*. This is the triangle of success that I wrote about in a recent RGS article, matching the right cover to the right dog to the right handler.


Not to derail, but it's interesting that you bring this up... I guess I missed that article.

I thought a lot about this concept this season. I had an aging dog with some health issues who'd only been a so-so producer in the past. I added a relative pup to the mix, and I had a pretty well-established dog in her prime.

Throughout the season, I was able to match dogs to suitable covers, and the newbie and the prime dog each had great seasons. 

The old cripple with periodic steadiness issues? I was very selective about where she hunted and how much time she spent on the ground. As a result, I probably killed more grouse over her points this year than in the previous 3-4 seasons combined.


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## N M Mechanical

Range I want controled craziness. I want to be able to read the dog and if they are "hot" on a bird either whistle sit them or get my butt to them quickly. This year having a young dog I let him "eat" yes where there times he flushed birds out of range yes but I was doing that to let him learn where Grouse live. I had a very enjoyable time this year breaking up the routine of the day of listening to the beeper go off and making sure the dog handled a bird properly and with my lab it was just open the tailgate and lock and load. Will I always have a pointing dog yes but can a flushing breed be as deadly in the grouse woods I say yes and got to say I had easier looks at the birds with the lab then I had with the pointing dogs. Everytime I hit the woods this year I would have at least 5 dogs to run and the lab produced as many for the gun as any other dog on the gound but I belive in the triangle also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## N M Mechanical

How I started Kenny was exactly how I started all my pointing dogs some birds in the field then a heavy does of wild birds and let nature take over. Right off the nest[

size=1]_Posted via Mobile Device_[/size]


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## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> Range I want controled craziness. I want to be able to read the dog and if they are "hot" on a bird either whistle sit them or get my butt to them quickly. This year having a young dog I let him "eat" yes where there times he flushed birds out of range yes but I was doing that to let him learn where Grouse live. I had a very enjoyable time this year breaking up the routine of the day of listening to the beeper go off and making sure the dog handled a bird properly and with my lab it was just open the tailgate and lock and load. Will I always have a pointing dog yes but can a flushing breed be as deadly in the grouse woods I say yes and got to say I had easier looks at the birds with the lab then I had with the pointing dogs. Everytime I hit the woods this year I would have at least 5 dogs to run and the lab produced as many for the gun as any other dog on the gound but I belive in the triangle also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



So Nick, why did you pick the dog you have to be your Grouse Flusher?


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## jimmyjette14

Fritz, that was poetry. you put things together very well, For me most of the things worked wrong this year, even at the gdoy I put the dog in the wrong area, I new it to late. on seeveral hunting trips I could not pattern the birds, then the knee problem, it all worked against producing birds, this dog and I have not found our timing yet, she burns up the energy to fast, the other dog I had paced himself better, and new where to range and when to tuck in. I also beleave the size you are looking for is mated to the type of hunting you do, this with the boot leather has brought you and Rick to the level you you hunt. nick is also showing the metal if you will. and I thank you for cutting to it, and explaining why it works so well for you, my results will be far below your field exploits, that is ok I enjoy the time with the dog and will define my own sucess as I should. but the help that you give through no bs. other than friendly fire. is worth all the tripe that other shell out for there own glory or mahem. thaks again


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## Steelheadfred

jimmyjette14 said:


> Fritz, that was poetry. you put things together very well, For me most of the things worked wrong this year, even at the gdoy I put the dog in the wrong area, I new it to late. on seeveral hunting trips I could not pattern the birds, then the knee problem, it all worked against producing birds, this dog and I have not found our timing yet, she burns up the energy to fast, the other dog I had paced himself better, and new where to range and when to tuck in. I also beleave the size you are looking for is mated to the type of hunting you do, this with the boot leather has brought you and Rick to the level you you hunt. nick is also showing the metal if you will. and I thank you for cutting to it, and explaining why it works so well for you, my results will be far below your field exploits, that is ok I enjoy the time with the dog and will define my own sucess as I should. but the help that you give through no bs. other than friendly fire. is worth all the tripe that other shell out for there own glory or mahem. thaks again



The question is pertaining to this thread of mythical CDR's, could you have helped your dog when it was young in a different manner?



My point on the story of the two "Brag" Cockers above, it does not represent Cockers as a breed, it's a representation of those two dogs, not even those two dogs career, but those two dogs week. 14 Lost Cripples!


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## kellyM87

Fritz, 
great post, great insight.


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## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> So Nick, why did you pick the dog you have to be your Grouse Flusher?


First I did not go in getting the dog for grouse he was and is to be my duck dog and trial dog. But he showed me in july and august he could produce. He has the speed the endurance and the metal capabilty to adapt. Both sides of his pedigree are lined with FC's but "I" am a grouse guy that is just getting into the duck and goose game I love that I can go the marsh in the morning and have the best tool for the job and then turn around in the afternoon and have him put 15-30 grouse in the air for me but I also know where to put him give me any breed of dog and they will see hundreds of grouse every year as long as they are willing to go in the brush with me. Right off the nest
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> I'll take the bait too.
> 
> The past decade my brother and I have experienced a lot of success (you can define success how ever you'd like) in the wild bird hunting arena, we know what we believe through boot leather and well time advice from mentors, we've hunted with dozens of different dogs and people. I've attended various field trials for Retrievers, Spaniels, and Pointing breeds, been fortunate enough to hunt and train with some of the finest most respected Professional Trainers in our state. Spent time with real killers in the woods and their dogs, sought out, hunted with, and consulted with one of the states finest DVM's. We use what works for us, I hate BxxSxxT when I read it, you'll never convince me that finding liberated bird after liberated bird in a hay field crosses over to handling hundreds of grouse for the gun a season. It has it's place and time in the development of a dog, but at some point there is a point of diminishing returns on that activity IMO. But when I comment it's born of 100 days a year in the grouse woods and time on the prairie. You can like what I write or think I'm full of ****, but come September 15th next year, you'll find me and my dogs doing what we love to the best of our ability come heavy bag or light at the end the day; that's wild bird hunting.
> 
> Steve,
> 
> You read on the internet this that and the other thing, then you hear the rest of the story. I ever tell you about the three hunters from Michigan that lined up a pay to play farm in the Dakota's, right in the prime of the season. They were in South Dakota, in an area famous for some of the highest Pheasant Densities per mile in North America, in a season that I think was the Highest Pheasant Harvest of the Modern Era. Well they took two of these brag Cockers and one or two dogs that pointed. At the end of 5 days of hunting, they came home with the skunk, a big ZERO, but wait, has Harvey said there is more to the story, oh they found birds and knocked down 14, but never recovered a one.
> 
> You then read about these dogs online, you'd think the story above could not be real, but it was. When I write or speak on my dogs, I can promise you one thing, I speak the truth of what they are capable of and nothing more.
> 
> My point being, does this story reflect on the Cockers as a breed? Hell NO, it reflects on those two dogs and nothing more.


 
Sorry about posting once more on the CDR thread. *Thanks* for making my point Fritz. This is the place for you to put down others and pat yourself on the back. I enjoy reading the "stories."

PS. you don't even have a clue how many grouse each of my hayfield planted bird dogs flushed this year or how many grouse we ate, and are still eating:evil:.


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## Steelheadfred

Steve, I've never commented on your dogs.

I've debated planted birds, quartering, training development. Never commented on your dogs. 

Its ok for your passive agressive comments, Cover Robbers Rodney, and Hacks, but if you post a resume its bragging. I'm simply commenting on what I've experienced. I hate bull **** stories.

Please show me where I commented on your dogs?


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## Steelheadfred

Lets line this up, Rodney, Dauber, Mrs Dauber, vs. Ric, Fritz, and Nick, 3 days, all grouse, we will spot you 5 a day. ,$1000 bucks a guy. Competition breeds a better dog according to Hal. Winnings to the drummer fund.


I'm on the tread mill right now, keeping ready for next year. 3mph through the woods.
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## BIGSP

Steve 
I have hunted with both you and fritz. Clearly different dogs clearly great dogs for each persons method. I have to say I've never heard fritz brag about his dogs or demean others. He like you hunts with many different people and many different dogs and appreciates them all, from what I have seen.


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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> I hate BxxSxxT when I read it, you'll never convince me that finding liberated bird after liberated bird in a hay field crosses over to handling hundreds of grouse for the gun a season.


Easy.
Didn't even have to go to the spaniel thread to pull out how my 30# dog couldn't hunt cattails, numerous comments like the above, again not a clue of what my dogs do.


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## jimmyjette14

hey I'm out, this thread imo was ment to flare. still was good info from Fritz on how it all comes together. will try to work toward that more in the future. but this thread has no good place to go. taking the same loop as Fieldwalkers question. some puppy pee'ed in somebodys cereal bowl way back


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## N M Mechanical

Back to range I let mine role at 30-75 yards like I said controled craziness
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

Chez29 said:


> Do you have a technique to teach that range or is that just the natural range of your dogs? I've got a 9 month old lab pup who covers quite a bit of ground but tends to push well ahead of me, when he gets on scent hes going regardless. Do you use a whistle sit or similiar technique to check the range or just get a good pair of sneakers and chase. :lol:
> Thanks for any responses.


Each dog is different, I'm a pattern for conditions and cover type kind of guy. With young dogs I let them eat, give them their head so to speak, I think it teaches them where birds live, for the first couple seasons I'm more interested in their development of finding birds then I am killing them. Influence handling when they are young over layed with well timed but not excessive whistle commands. 

As they age, and we start to really build an understanding with each other, at least that is the goal. At that point I believe the dog is starting to learn what pattern for what type of cover and such. I'll hunt them closer (can take more handling) or bigger depending on cover conditions and time of the year. Many times I'll put myself between the escape route and the dog, if I think birds are going to use the escape route, then I'll let them hunt pretty big especially if they are hunting parallel to me. 

A wise setter man told me once, "Kill the ones you can kill and don't worry about the rest." 

Don't think of a flushing dog hunting at "big range" as always being to the front, that's not the kind of big range I want to see. We are working on the dogs ability to corner birds into mistakes and drive them in front of the gun.


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## Lloydboy

Mike McDonald said:


> As you all know I'm a setter guy, have been my whole life. My wife has a border collie and my son has a FBEC and they are both great dogs as well. I'm too old to change and my dogs really fit me well at my stage of life. That said if I were starting over I'd very seriously consider whatever you decide to call an lab built for the uplands. I've hunted with the Hellers and had the pleasure of Rick and Nar's company yesterday while I looked at Blue. These dogs are made right!!! I really think that this type of Lab would have worked well for me. Almost all of the labs I see don't have the physical make up that I would seek out for the uplands. But the Heller's do and so do David Lloyd's. I'd be a flusher guy to me that is one of the big advantages of a lab. The other being their retrieving ability. That's all I'm going to say, until like Dauber, I think of something else I want to say. mac


Thanks Mac! 



gundogguy said:


> Gene pool for 2012!
> 
> http://2012nrcblog.theretrievernews.com/


Hal - watched both dogs this summer at NARC and I take Traveler over Pete any day... From the first series to the last day, Traveler was breath taking with his style and speed... http://2012narcblog.theretrievernews.com/ 

But when it goes for Gene Pool... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vu7G_OQpwOw/T-YX8D9zRtI/AAAAAAAAGY4/B_f79idkhbI/s1600/10.jpg

She was a finalist @ both NARC & NRC...


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## Socks

Lloydboy said:


> Thanks Mac!
> 
> 
> 
> Hal - watched both dogs this summer at NARC and I take Traveler over Pete any day... From the first series to the last day, Traveler was breath taking with his style and speed... http://2012narcblog.theretrievernews.com/
> 
> But when it goes for Gene Pool... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vu7G_OQpwOw/T-YX8D9zRtI/AAAAAAAAGY4/B_f79idkhbI/s1600/10.jpg
> 
> She was a finalist @ both NARC & NRC...


Are we talking about the dog or the handler!


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## Duece22

Some pics from our late season trip to SoDak. Great hunting all week on public ground. 

































































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## N M Mechanical

Nice clown birds ric. Did you happen to go close to where you guys stayed back in november or different part of the state.


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## Duece22

N M Mechanical said:


> Nice clown birds ric. Did you happen to go close to where you guys stayed back in november or different part of the state.


Nick, we went that direction one day but the remainder were spent in a new location we did not hunt in November. 


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## Steelheadfred

Good Job Ric.way to go, wooohoo

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## gundogguy

Lloydboy said:


> Hal - watched both dogs this summer at NARC and I take Traveler over Pete any day... From the first series to the last day, Traveler was breath taking with his style and speed... http://2012narcblog.theretrievernews.com/
> 
> But when it goes for Gene Pool... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vu7G_OQpwOw/T-YX8D9zRtI/AAAAAAAAGY4/B_f79idkhbI/s1600/10.jpg
> 
> She was a finalist @ both NARC & NRC...


Well good! I had not had a chance to read thru the entire blog. I especially enjoy the Tests photos and diagrams of each problem the competiing dogs have to solve. Seeing dogs in trial is enjoyable, thou I would much rather watch training. 
It sounds like you have a judge running in your blood, best thing to do is become one.

Concerning that second link I think that in Vermont she could probable marry that dog..the progressives there have made a lot changes about such marriage laws and what not!


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## hehibrits

This thread will never outlive the spaniel corner at this rate &#128558;
Here is a pic of a couple beaver tails I had out on the prairie. 










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## kellyM87

Talk about fake boobs and Katherine Webb, that'll spice it up.


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## Mike McDonald

Tell me those aren't fake. Plz


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## Steelheadfred

Young May learning on the job, spring grouse 10 months old.


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## N M Mechanical

Very nice work for a woodcock dog
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jim58

That was a great video Fritz, although if you would stay out on the trail I would appreciate it my face was starting to get a little scratched up.


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## Steelheadfred

Jim58 said:


> That was a great video Fritz, although if you would stay out on the trail I would appreciate it my face was starting to get a little scratched up.



Thanks Jim, not really worried about much with them at that age, encourage them to search and learn where birds are, I liked that she was checking out most pine trees. 

My Original Cover Dog Retriever Harry, he went to young. Was hell on wheels and Koosh, Jr, and I killed a bunch of West Michigan Birds over him, his one season. 

Got to be about six months old in this picture.










he was a good steelhead dog, Indiana Summer Run


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## Jim58

Content currently unavailable message for the video.


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## Mike McDonald

That's a great fish baby face. mac


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## Timber

Steelheadfred said:


> I'll take the bait too.
> 
> Nick,
> 
> What are you thoughts on Range, Control, and development? IE How do you start a young Flushing Dog on Great Lakes Ruffed Grouse?
> 
> Gundogguy coined the term "Cover Dog Retriever" it has zero following to my knowledge outside of the grabassery of M-S Upland Forums. I own flushing dogs first, they happen to be small, fast, athletic (in my opinion) Labradors of the Yellow Variety.
> 
> I don't see flushing dog discussions as breed vs. breed, their is significant variance in performance (all encompassing) within a litter of heavily line bred dogs let alone making generalizations about an entire segment or type within a breed.
> 
> I pick the dog first for a variety of attributes and the breed second. For me it starts with the right dog, and then works towards the Handler who does or does not do the training, exposure. After that you can start to pick a breed, and a line within that breed.
> 
> I'm more concerned about the individual dogs performance than I am the breed, I own Labs and I bring them along in a fashion that I've learned about from others and boot leather, a method that works for me and the style in which I hunt. I am confident in what I desire in a flushing dog for Grouse Hunting, it's slightly different than what I would want if I lived on the Prairie. I would not hesitate to start any breed of flushing dog in the same fashion that I start my labs with the goal being (admittedly with adjustments to the dog itself) a dog that hunts in a pleasing fashion for myself.
> 
> I like any dog that can lay it down day after day on wild birds, pointer or flusher or both (sticky flushers are some the deadliest wild bird dogs I've ever seen); a dog that can produce in all weather conditions from heat to a foot of snow, a dog that can handle birds when it's dry and wet, can make seamless transition from Great Lakes Ruffs to Prairie Pheasants. I like a fast, quick, animated dog, a dog that is tuff with lots of endurance, a dog that can pace itself for the conditions,one that in the heart of it's career is a consistent performer days after days after seasons. But it's as much about me as the dog, I'm selling the dog short if I don't know where to park and how to pattern birds, if I don't put the dog in a position to enhance it's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses. This is the triangle of success that I wrote about in a recent RGS article, matching the right cover to the right dog to the right handler.
> 
> In my experience there are limitations to any dog, and hunter. I seek to eliminate to the best of my ability those limitations; but as I age the reality is I will become more limiting than my canine partner, at that point I may work to find balance again in a dog, then a breed.
> 
> The past decade my brother and I have experienced a lot of success (you can define success how ever you'd like) in the wild bird hunting arena, we know what we believe through boot leather and well time advice from mentors, we've hunted with dozens of different dogs and people. I've attended various field trials for Retrievers, Spaniels, and Pointing breeds, been fortunate enough to hunt and train with some of the finest most respected Professional Trainers in our state. Spent time with real killers in the woods and their dogs, sought out, hunted with, and consulted with one of the states finest DVM's. We use what works for us, I hate BxxSxxT when I read it, you'll never convince me that finding liberated bird after liberated bird in a hay field crosses over to handling hundreds of grouse for the gun a season. It has it's place and time in the development of a dog, but at some point there is a point of diminishing returns on that activity IMO. But when I comment it's born of 100 days a year in the grouse woods and time on the prairie. You can like what I write or think I'm full of ****, but come September 15th next year, you'll find me and my dogs doing what we love to the best of our ability come heavy bag or light at the end the day; that's wild bird hunting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> You read on the internet this that and the other thing, then you hear the rest of the story. I ever tell you about the three hunters from Michigan that lined up a pay to play farm in the Dakota's, right in the prime of the season. They were in South Dakota, in an area famous for some of the highest Pheasant Densities per mile in North America, in a season that I think was the Highest Pheasant Harvest of the Modern Era. Well they took two of these brag Cockers and one or two dogs that pointed. At the end of 5 days of hunting, they came home with the skunk, a big ZERO, but wait, has Harvey said there is more to the story, oh they found birds and knocked down 14, but never recovered a one.
> 
> You then read about these dogs online, you'd think the story above could not be real, but it was. When I write or speak on my dogs, I can promise you one thing, I speak the truth of what they are capable of and nothing more.
> 
> My point being, does this story reflect on the Cockers as a breed? Hell NO, it reflects on those two dogs and nothing more.


Well said.


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## jimmyjette14

Steelheadfred said:


> Thanks Jim, not really worried about much with them at that age, encourage them to search and learn where birds are, I liked that she was checking out most pine trees.
> 
> My Original Cover Dog Retriever Harry, he went to young. Was hell on wheels and Koosh, Jr, and I killed a bunch of West Michigan Birds over him, his one season.
> 
> Got to be about six months old in this picture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he was a good steelhead dog, Indiana Summer Run


 is it legal to take fish with a dog? like to see a pointer or spaniel do it.


----------



## Jay Johnson

My setter accompanies me all the time while stream trout fishing. 

She get's a little cold in March and April but nothing serious.

I like her company better than most the humans I fish with.


----------



## 2ESRGR8

Duece22 said:


> X2 BOOM
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Agreed.


----------



## kek25

:Welcome: I mean 

KABOOM BABY!!


----------



## Steelheadfred

"Some dogs aquire super handling skills adn are capable of adjusting to their handler's slightest whim, but if they can't find birds on their own they are just about worthless as a shooting dog. About teh only thing a dog like that can do is pick up after the shooting's over.
A dog who is controlled back adn forth, in and out throughout his hunt spends much of his time worrying about his performance. He knows if he screws up there will be hell to pay. This is terribly fatiguing to the dog; it will adversely effect his endurance as well as his efficiency."


Mike Gould

The Labrador Shooting Dog - page 23


----------



## Duece22

Steelheadfred said:


> "Some dogs aquire super handling skills adn are capable of adjusting to their handler's slightest whim, but if they can't find birds on their own they are just about worthless as a shooting dog. About teh only thing a dog like that can do is pick up after the shooting's over.
> A dog who is controlled back adn forth, in and out throughout his hunt spends much of his time worrying about his performance. He knows if he screws up there will be hell to pay. This is terribly fatiguing to the dog; it will adversely effect his endurance as well as his efficiency."
> 
> 
> Mike Gould
> 
> The Labrador Shooting Dog - page 23


X12 BOOM KABOOM BOOM 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Jay Johnson

Steelheadfred said:


> "Some dogs aquire super handling skills adn are capable of adjusting to their handler's slightest whim, but if they can't find birds on their own they are just about worthless as a shooting dog. About teh only thing a dog like that can do is pick up after the shooting's over.
> A dog who is controlled back adn forth, in and out throughout his hunt spends much of his time worrying about his performance. He knows if he screws up there will be hell to pay. This is terribly fatiguing to the dog; it will adversely effect his endurance as well as his efficiency."
> 
> 
> Mike Gould
> 
> The Labrador Shooting Dog - page 23


I say, the best grouse dogs are the ones with the least cluttered minds.


----------



## N M Mechanical

Jay Johnson said:


> I say, the best grouse dogs are the ones with the least cluttered minds.


 
Could not agree more.


----------



## hehibrits

Jay Johnson said:


> I say, the best grouse dogs are the ones with the least cluttered minds.


x7


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## hehibrits

N M Mechanical said:


> Could not agree more.


Yup &#11014;


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## 2ESRGR8

Jay Johnson said:


> I say, the best grouse dogs are the ones with the least cluttered minds.


Bingo!


----------



## 2ESRGR8

I'm really happy everyone participating in this thread knows how to use the quote function.


----------



## hehibrits

2ESRGR8 said:


> I'm really happy everyone participating in this thread knows how to use the quote function.


x2 &#128163; boom


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## N M Mechanical

2ESRGR8 said:


> I'm really happy everyone participating in this thread knows how to use the quote function.


How do you guys do the multiple quote:help:


----------



## k9wernet

2ESRGR8 said:


> I'm really happy everyone participating in this thread knows how to use the quote function.


:yeah that:




N M Mechanical said:


> How do you guys do the multiple quote:help:


With the multi-quote button: www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif


----------



## hehibrits

k9wernet said:


> :yeah that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the multi-quote button: www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif


I don't have a multi quote button 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## k9wernet

hehibrits said:


> I don't have a multi quote button
> 
> 
> *Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire[*/URL]




Maybe it's your smartphone.


----------



## Steelheadfred

2ESRGR8 said:


> I'm really happy everyone participating in this thread knows how to use the quote function.



Listen slappy, X3 BOOYAA


----------



## 2ESRGR8

Steelheadfred said:


> Listen slappy, X3 BOOYAA


Jack!


----------



## N M Mechanical

Whistle use? What do you use and how often
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> Whistle use? What do you use and how often
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



One sit. 

Two is a slight handling or locating whistle

bing, bing, bing, bing, is recall.


How often I used it depends on the cover, number of other dogs down (more handling required to respect other dogs), number of partners and how fast they walk and how familiar they are with how I hunt, time of year, age of the dog (none in the beginning, more than usual during the teen age years) then only when needed when older.


----------



## Steelheadfred

"Blue Grouse spend their entire summer in or near the parks and up until the onset of cold weather they feed out there all day long. It's an unbelievable place to work dogs adn you can see five mountain ranges at the same time.
The reason I brought you here is to give you an example of a Labrador shooting dog plying his trade in tehmost unorthadox fashion. This dog is so experienced with grouse it woudl absurd to boss him around and tell him where to hunt.
I have spent many years training on those mountains so I have a good idea where the birds go for escape cover, and I try to be there."

The Labrador Shooting Dog, Mike Gould, Page 48


----------



## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> "Blue Grouse spend their entire summer in or near the parks and up until the onset of cold weather they feed out there all day long. It's an unbelievable place to work dogs adn you can see five mountain ranges at the same time.
> The reason I brought you here is to give you an example of a Labrador shooting dog plying his trade in tehmost unorthadox fashion. This dog is so experienced with grouse it woudl absurd to boss him around and tell him where to hunt.
> I have spent many years training on those mountains so I have a good idea where the birds go for escape cover, and I try to be there."
> 
> The Labrador Shooting Dog, Mike Gould, Page 48


You are cooking with peanut oil now.


----------



## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> You are cooking with peanut oil now.


----------



## Dave Medema

That video makes me happy, happy, happy.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Dave Medema said:


> That video makes me happy, happy, happy.


The Duckmen are fans of little retrievers too...

Headed to GR Dave, right now.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## hehibrits

Steelheadfred said:


> My guess is that is a Wicklewood Hall bred dog, that guy was importing some small true british trial dogs.
> 
> MS member rmd has one.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


You know your ****...my buddy just texted me back, Wicklewook Kennels. He said the "old boy died, I don't know if he will be breeding anymore." Very fine line of dogs, and that is a lot coming fr me...


Posted using sweatshop labor


----------



## N M Mechanical

JACK!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jon Couch

N M Mechanical said:


> Whistle use? What do you use and how often
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What's really fun is when you and your buddies dogs are whistle trained and everytime you sit your dog his dog sits too. Or your dog is pushing out and you bend him and the other dog starts to get confused.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Steelheadfred

Jon Couch said:


> What's really fun is when you and your buddies dogs are whistle trained and everytime you sit your dog his dog sits too. Or your dog is pushing out and you bend him and the other dog starts to get confused.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


My brother and I use different whistles with a different cadance, helps but your scenario still happens.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## jimmyjette14

people that are dead dont usualy breed dogs. or it makes the news


----------



## N M Mechanical

How many species do you use you CDR?

I hunt grouse, woodcock,pheasants, ducks & geese


----------



## hehibrits

jimmyjette14 said:


> people that are dead dont usualy breed dogs. or it makes the news


I think the "old boy" was a stud dog. And the owner isn't breeding dogs anymore. 


Posted using sweatshop labor


----------



## Duece22

N M Mechanical said:


> How many species do you use you CDR?
> 
> I hunt grouse, woodcock,pheasants, ducks & geese


 Have used them for.......grouse, woodcock, pheasants, prairie chickens, sharptails, Huns, bobwhite quail, ducks. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## N M Mechanical

Duece22 said:


> Have used them for.......grouse, woodcock, pheasants, prairie chickens, sharptails, Huns, bobwhite quail, ducks.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


So truely a versital upland hunting dog
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jon Couch

N M Mechanical said:


> How many species do you use you CDR?
> 
> I hunt grouse, woodcock,pheasants, ducks & geese


Same Here! 

my dogs hunt waterfowl from the big lake to Rivers and fields and everything in-between. I even had one catch a timber doodle this year. And had one start to point now that he is 5


----------



## N M Mechanical

Jon Couch said:


> Same Here!
> 
> my dogs hunt waterfowl from the big lake to Rivers and fields and everything in-between. I even had one catch a timber doodle this year. And had one start to point now that he is 5


What lines are yours out of?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jon Couch

N M Mechanical said:


> What lines are yours out of?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gator (The one that started to point)
http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/extpedigree.asp?id=1293










Zoey (Caught the "Timberdoodle")
http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/extpedigree.asp?id=15157










Lilly
http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/extpedigree.asp?id=15292










Riley
http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/extpedigree.asp?id=1255


----------



## Duece22

N M Mechanical said:


> So truely a versital upland hunting dog
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Took them lots of places that may have swallowed a smaller dog whole. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Mike McDonald

N M Mechanical said:


> So truely a versital upland hunting dog
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not quite, to be a truly versatile upland dog I really think you've got to show your stuff on sand hill cranes. Then and only then would I agree. mac


----------



## jimmyjette14

N M Mechanical said:


> How many species do you use you CDR?
> 
> I hunt grouse, woodcock,pheasants, ducks & geese


 
plus rabbit , squirrel, and dove. but I have a chessie not a mear cdr lab


----------



## k9wernet

No CDR turkey flock busters?


----------



## Steelheadfred

All Hail the King







Thanks for the link Grushy.


----------



## N M Mechanical

Nice red phase
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

"He also said if you hunt edges and use labs (for grouse) it is not sporting it is to easy that way. At least with a pointing dog the bird has a chance to walk away" 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## brookie~freak

???


----------



## Steelheadfred

brookie~freak said:


> ???




???? - #asknickmoe


----------



## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> "He also said if you hunt edges and use labs (for grouse) it is not sporting it is to easy that way. At least with a pointing dog the bird has a chance to walk away"
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


So with that quote from one with 67 covers does that say that flushing dogs(labs) are the best meat dog? I am in the camp horses for coarses but will say the easiest shots I had this year came over the lab.
Keeeeennnnyyyyy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> So with that quote from one with 67 covers does that say that flushing dogs(labs) are the best meat dog? I am in the camp horses for coarses but will say the easiest shots I had this year came over the lab.
> Keeeeennnnyyyyy
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Stay Strong and Burn Powder On. The person that said that quote has 67 covers and mentioned nothing of the other flushing breeds, so I would consider the source before saying "Labs" are the best meat dogs.


----------



## N M Mechanical

Gun powder on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> Gun powder on
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

Great Discussion here on Coverdog's, stamina, gait, conformation, and development of Setters, some of it I believe applies to any grouse dog, good discussion about what it takes to "win" and breeding.


http://www.uplandjournal.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard312a/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=2;t=80147


----------



## hehibrits

Steelheadfred said:


> Great Discussion here on Coverdog's, stamina, gait, conformation, and development of Setters, some of it I believe applies to any grouse dog, good discussion about what it takes to "win" and breeding.
> 
> 
> http://www.uplandjournal.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard312a/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=2;t=80147


That's a good thread for sure. I just had a conversation with Grush a week or two ago a out how I am surprised more dogs don't severely injure or kill themselves running balls to the wall. Our conversation took place a day or two before I got my Nelson dog back from MSU for the third time for major surgery. I agree with the OP in that in a perfect world (for me) trial stakes would be two hours both AA horseback and Coverdog. Not feasible, I understand. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Steelheadfred

Some folks, including myself make the point that breeding solely based on trials for any breed can and does present holes when hoping those offspring will be first class wild bird dogs. 

Gavan does an excellent job in another thread addressing some of these type issues for his breed of choice.



> In my opinion english cockers today still possess "spaniel action or style" where this has been lost in many of our field trial lines of springers. Some of loss has come from genetics but some from the way the dogs are trained. If the dog gets quartered into hundreds of pigeons in light grassy cover a lot of the style will be gone. I also believe that our english cockers are typically only a generation or two removed from Britain whereas most of our field trial lines of springers have little if any blood that traces back that closely to Britain.In my opinion english cockers today still possess "spaniel action or style" where this has been lost in many of our field trial lines of springers. Some of loss has come from genetics but some from the way the dogs are trained. If the dog gets quartered into hundreds of pigeons in light grassy cover a lot of the style will be gone. I also believe that our english cockers are typically only a generation or two removed from Britain whereas most of our field trial lines of springers have little if any blood that traces back that closely to Britain.
> The springer and cocker trials in the US are different in that the cockers still run in broken and wooded cover whereas, springer trialers howl in disapproval if even a series of a trial is run such cover. Many springer trialers don't hunt and few train their springers in anything other than grass fields. It would be a shame to see the same thing happen to the english cockers and have them lose the their close hunting style and utility in the grouse woods.


----------



## Duece22

Steelheadfred said:


> Some folks, including myself make the point that breeding solely based on trials for any breed can and does present holes when hoping those offspring will be first class wild bird dogs.
> 
> Gavan does an excellent job in another thread addressing some of these type issues for his breed of choice.


Yup


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## kellyM87

Duece22 said:


> Yup
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Outta curiosity... Why???


----------



## Duece22

kellyM87 said:


> Outta curiosity... Why???


Fritz said it well and so did Gavan regarding spaniels. Trials can create a focus on a set criteria that over time will discount or remove some of the traits that are desired in a wild bird dog. It is just like the discussion on UJ about whether coverdog trials and the limited brace times are causing dogs off spring from that venue to have that all out power for a shorter time period rather than a better pace for a longer period of time that is desired in a wild bird dog. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## kellyM87

Duece22 said:


> Fritz said it well and so did Gavan regarding spaniels. Trials can create a focus on a set criteria that over time will discount or remove some of the traits that are desired in a wild bird dog. It is just like the discussion on UJ about whether coverdog trials and the limited brace times are causing dogs off spring from that venue to have that all out power for a shorter time period rather than a better pace for a longer period of time that is desired in a wild bird dog.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Oh I didn't look at the link..... I agree for the most part though.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Is the all out pace , even if sustainable, in retrievers, springers, coverdogs, the desired pace for a meat dog? 

What made wrangler so special was her intelligence to do both at high high levels. She would adjust her hunting pace. Can you find that in a heloise focussed flushing dog?

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## 2ESRGR8

Steelheadfred said:


> "He also said if you hunt edges and use labs (for grouse) it is not sporting it is to easy that way. At least with a pointing dog the bird has a chance to walk away"


Aha! Cheater! I just knew it. :evil:


----------



## Steelheadfred

2ESRGR8 said:


> Aha! Cheater! I just knew it. :evil:


If that's wrong, I don' want to know what is right.


----------



## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> If that's wrong, I don' want to know what is right.






X5
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ESRGR8

N M Mechanical said:


> X5
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Boo- yah!


----------



## hehibrits

Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> Is the all out pace , even if sustainable, in retrievers, springers, coverdogs, the desired pace for a meat dog?
> 
> What made wrangler so special was her intelligence to do both at high high levels. She would adjust her hunting pace. Can you find that in a heloise focussed flushing dog?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I would say it depends on how many dogs you have on the truck or lezbru and what size your covers are and how you hunt them. 

The statement about Wrangler I believe yes we can find that in a CDR look at what we ask of them one day be in a "seek and destroy" on upland birds and the next go to the duck or goose blind and then the off season we trail them.
I would say it is harder to have a lab be on top of the retriever game and be a top grouse/upland meat dog then a pointer/setter in coverdog. And the reason I say that is that we as retriever guys are asking the dog to do something totally diferent then what we ask them to do when we upland hunt a Coverdog trial is basically hunting(yes I know there is different training for the trial)


----------



## Steelheadfred

Good Stuff Nick,

As you know I don't do a whole lot of non slip retriever work, it's a shame I can't get more interested in it. Maybe this is the year. 

There are though some aspects of non slip retriever training that I believe benefit a dog in the uplands, things that have applications beyond blind retrievers and focus more on handling, especially handling at distance.


Want to take a guess? Where is Vanderwall he should be in on this thread too!


----------



## jimmyjette14

guys this is pretty good stuff, but i dont like the format. that is this thread snake around and is hard to follow at time, need to back track 4 pages to get contex on what is being said. I would like to stop this thread and go back to the focus discutions so we can follow the current discussion , I am not sure about the search use of this tread to revisit the subject that comes up as needed, maybe a sub forum? I dont bother with the springer thread, a; dont have 1, b; where would you start to find the info that you want? but thats there gig. I think , hope we are smarter than that, maybe not,, if the idea is to have the biggest thread well there are other ways, bump ,tt, I am just trying to get info and join in when I can, that may be 3 days down the rabbit hole


----------



## jimmyjette14

Duece22 said:


> Fritz said it well and so did Gavan regarding spaniels. Trials can create a focus on a set criteria that over time will discount or remove some of the traits that are desired in a wild bird dog. It is just like the discussion on UJ about whether coverdog trials and the limited brace times are causing dogs off spring from that venue to have that all out power for a shorter time period rather than a better pace for a longer period of time that is desired in a wild bird dog.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 I can see that, when I trained with springers, couple birds maybe 10 minits and to the box. I tryed to push my dog farther down the field and sometimes no birds. sometimes last run clean the field 5 or more


----------



## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> Good Stuff Nick,
> 
> As you know I don't do a whole lot of non slip retriever work, it's a shame I can't get more interested in it. Maybe this is the year.
> 
> There are though some aspects of non slip retriever training that I believe benefit a dog in the uplands, things that have applications beyond blind retrievers and focus more on handling, especially handling at distance.
> 
> 
> Want to take a guess? Where is Vanderwall he should be in on this thread too!


Come on down to New Era this spring and summer and you will get the bug you have done some super singles correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

jimmyjette14 said:


> guys this is pretty good stuff, but i dont like the format. that is this thread snake around and is hard to follow at time, need to back track 4 pages to get contex on what is being said. I would like to stop this thread and go back to the focus discutions so we can follow the current discussion , I am not sure about the search use of this tread to revisit the subject that comes up as needed, maybe a sub forum? I dont bother with the springer thread, a; dont have 1, b; where would you start to find the info that you want? but thats there gig. I think , hope we are smarter than that, maybe not,, if the idea is to have the biggest thread well there are other ways, bump ,tt, I am just trying to get info and join in when I can, that may be 3 days down the rabbit hole



Jim,

What subject do you want to discuss? We need to drag Vanderwall into this thread too!


Post up a topic of discussion, then read the reply's from folks that quote your info.


Fritz


----------



## N M Mechanical

Fritz from the trials I have been to for retrievers many of the top dogs would be great in the uplands but they do not get the chance. Others I don't think could not handle a season in the uplands no matter the bird.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## N M Mechanical

I would like to hear the pointing lab people take on the subject
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> I would like to hear the pointing lab people take on the subject
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


are we diverging now from cover dog bragging too labs that point bragging?

From what I've seen, the PL folks f do a nice job af balance between retrieve and upland for apla and hinting along with other venues.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## N M Mechanical

Has anyone heard what date Super Singles will run this year?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## N M Mechanical

There are though some aspects of non slip retriever training that I believe benefit a dog in the uplands, things that have applications beyond blind retrievers and focus more on handling, especially handling at distance.

So with this statement what other then handling crosses from the non slip retriever to the uplands?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

N M Mechanical said:


> There are though some aspects of non slip retriever training that I believe benefit a dog in the uplands, things that have applications beyond blind retrievers and focus more on handling, especially handling at distance.
> 
> So with this statement what other then handling crosses from the non slip retriever to the uplands?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What application is the dog using in it's pattern?


----------



## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> What application is the dog using in it's pattern?








I believe you,Ric and myself like the dogs have there "head" and seek out objectives true? We are not telling the dog to make every turn
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

I think the Non Slip work teaches a dog to keep an ear at distance to the handler while maintaining a focus on the task (seek and destroy or pick up), I think it helps build confidence at a distance but still remaining connected that is important with flushing dogs. 

Not every cover dictates a dog hunt out deep, not every time of the year, but it sure makes my heart race when we can work and you can observe a dog in partnership at range with it's handler. I can't smell em and I only have an idea on where they might live.


----------



## N M Mechanical

I thought a grouse commander could smell them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duece22

N M Mechanical said:


> I believe you,Ric and myself like the dogs have there "head" and seek out objectives true? We are not telling the dog to make every turn
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do I have to be lumped in with you two? 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## jimmyjette14

do you like to run a new start , ie puppy that has learned the commands with a finished dog? to get used to the woods. not thinking the pup is learning from the other dog. just gaining confidense if you will?
or do you run that dog on it's own?


----------



## Duece22

jimmyjette14 said:


> do you like to run a new start , ie puppy that has learned the commands with a finished dog? to get used to the woods. not thinking the pup is learning from the other dog. just gaining confidense if you will?
> or do you run that dog on it's own?


My puppies always get to go on exercise runs with the older dogs but it is just an exercise run and if we run into a few birds that is a bonus. When it comes to hunting if I am alone it is one dog at a time, if with others we typically run one dog per person. I think it is important to run puppies with other dogs. In time they learn what the purpose is and learn to not chase or flag another dog. It was nice with the most recent puppy because Fritz and I each had a dog in the same place of learning and we could spot pick areas to run them together that would benefit their progression as bird dogs. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Duece22

Steelheadfred said:


> Caught a steelhead today
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Liar


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## N M Mechanical

Steelheadfred said:


> Caught a steelhead today
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


You caught it in the dorsel fin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred

Made a new fishing partner, his name is George, Ric's out

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Duece22

Steelheadfred said:


> Made a new fishing partner, his name is George, Ric's out
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Gut chucker


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## jimmyjette14

that voly helped make our dogs and training move forward:rant:. the fish forum is across the hall, just follow the smell


----------



## Steelheadfred

Duece22 said:


> Gut chucker
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Lover Boy's


----------



## Duece22

Steelheadfred said:


> Lover Boy's


Woodcock hunter 











Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Duece22

CDR Goes fishing 











Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## N M Mechanical




----------



## Steelheadfred

Right off the nest and to a blue Ribbon Nick, Nice picture Dave.


I don't know about you guys, but I'm ready to get out in some spring woods with the dogs.


----------



## Duece22

N M Mechanical said:


>


Nice pic Dave. Ole South Park Kenny doing work. Winner winner chicken dinner. 


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## N M Mechanical

Going to take him ice fishing now maybe he can flush some gills out of the hole. We will see
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## N M Mechanical

How many CDR'S are going to super singles?
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460514


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## Duece22

N M Mechanical said:


> How many CDR'S are going to super singles?
> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460514


I will be bringing two upland untrained CDR mutts. Trying to talk Fritz into bringing one as well. 


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## Mike McDonald

Where is it this year? Thinking about bringing the border collie. mac


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## Duece22

Mike McDonald said:


> Where is it this year? Thinking about bringing the border collie. mac


Tails A Waggin- just east of Cadillac. Not sure they will have any sheep to heard though. 


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## Mike McDonald

I'm not talking herding. You should see her retrieve a stick! mac


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## Steelheadfred

Mike McDonald said:


> I'm not talking herding. You should see her retrieve a stick! mac


When you compare it to a setter retrieving I'm sure it does look impressive.


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## Glenmorangie

Steelheadfred said:


> When you compare it to a setter retrieving I'm sure it does look impressive.


What's wrong with this retrieve?

[ame]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab279/cashabc123/Stella/IMG_0505.mp4[/ame]


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## Steelheadfred

Brownwater,

You should put that wing around a paint roller, that way it fills up most of the pups mouth. Using just a wing encourages chewing with some pups. 

Just a helpful tip from the CDR page.


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