# Enough Rifle ?



## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

I'm going to start to apply for a permit here in MI. May have to try in Canada.
I found "new" ammunition for an old Marlin lever action that has been in the family for generations.
The rifle is a 40-65 cal.
Will this rifle be enough for black bear?


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## fishotter (Oct 25, 2004)

I believe that would be more than what you need.I just use a 12 gauge.You most likely will be shooting no more than 40 yds anyway


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## Professor (Oct 14, 2005)

The cartridge is large and impressive, however the black powder era low pressure fact of the matter makes this a very weak load. Pmc makes the only new ammo in this caliber that I am aware of a 260gr lead bullet at about 1400 fps, about like a 44 magnum. the common handload is a 400 gr bullet @850 fps. Winchester factory loads were dropped many years back, they were very mild for safe shooting in ancient firearms, storage very well may have caused a lowering of performance. Shur, bears are killed with a variety of equipment, but they are such grand game animals, I feel they deserve your BEST effort for a quick, humane end.(BTW rent the Steve McQueen movie "Tom Horn" not too factual but an account of the legendary bounty hunter/killer and his 40/65..."If I did kill that kid, it was the luckiest shot I ever made". You will not be the same person after you hear the last sound a bear makes. Best wishes.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

After contacting Buffalo Arms, www.buffaloarms.com, I found out a few things that I didn't know about the rifle and cartridge.
Buffalo Arms loads new ammunition for this very old rifle along with PMC.
I found out the following today about the round and some differences.

My rifle is actually a 40-60 Marlin. Patent date: Nov. 9, 1880

Marlin 40-60 ammunition and Winchester 40-65 ammunition can be shot out of the same rifle. They're interchangable.
The Marlin 40-60 and the Winchester 40-60 are *NOT* interchangable.
This was some great stuff to know!
The Buffalo Arms ammunition has a muzzle velocity of 1420 fps. and, 1165 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.
I ordered 3 boxes today and will shoot the rifle this spring.
The last animal that this rifle shot was a black bear, near Atlanta MI in November of 1938 (have pics). I'm very fortunate to know the history of that hunt. It seems that the bear was extremely nasty and in the process of attacking my father when it was dispatched by my grandfather with this rifle.
I guess that you could say that *I'm *lucky that my grandfather was a good shot  
If this rifle shoots properly, the next animal that it will shot will be a bear. I'll start appling for MI permits, but may have to settle for a Canadian bear.
Thanks for all the help !


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## Nimrod1 (Apr 26, 2004)

ENCORE said:


> The last animal that this rifle shot was a black bear, near Atlanta MI in November of 1938 (have pics). I'm very fortunate to know the history of that hunt. It seems that the bear was extremely nasty and in the process of attacking my father when it was dispatched by my grandfather with this rifle.
> I guess that you could say that *I'm *lucky that my grandfather was a good shot
> If this rifle shoots properly, the next animal that it will shot will be a bear. I'll start appling for MI permits, but may have to settle for a Canadian bear.
> Thanks for all the help !


Man what an awesome piece of history to have! Could you post some of those old pics? Those historical photos are some of the coolest. Best of luck with your quest to take a bear with this gun! Keep us posted.


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## mau (Sep 6, 2005)

where near atlanta?i have property near there and if by chance it was in or near my place ill let you hunt there if you like for nostalgia and see if history repeats itself.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Nimrod1,

I guess that I haven't taken the time to learn how to post pictures.
I've got quite a few. Have pics of the old camps, dead bear, downtown Atlanta, postcards that were sent home, etc.

I think I read somewhere here on a post, the directions.
I'm just going to have to "bear down" and post them. Those that appreciate "back in the day" pics, will enjoy them.


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## Nimrod1 (Apr 26, 2004)

ENCORE said:


> Nimrod1,
> 
> I guess that I haven't taken the time to learn how to post pictures.
> I've got quite a few. Have pics of the old camps, dead bear, downtown Atlanta, postcards that were sent home, etc.
> ...


I for 1 can't wait!:bouncy:


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Ok, instead of reading the other posts, I went to the photo galery and found directions. _I think I can do this  _

I'll start tomorrow preparing the pictures. I'll dig into the container that has the postcards and get everything scanned into this computer. If they need touching up, I might be able to fix them.
Thanks for everyone's interest. I hope that you find the pictures of are what you'd like to see.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Nimrod1 said:


> Man what an awesome piece of history to have! Could you post some of those old pics? Those historical photos are some of the coolest. Best of luck with your quest to take a bear with this gun! Keep us posted.


Ok, I tried...........
I put the pictures in the photo gallery. I'm wondering which one though. Now, I have no idea how to put one in a post.
I hope you can find them. IF you find them, tell me if I did something wrong or something that I need to do better.
Enjoy the old pics.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Encore -

Here are the pics. very Cool!


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## Nimrod1 (Apr 26, 2004)

Encore,
Those pics are fantastic! Man, it would be so cool for you to shoot a bear with that gun. Best of luck.


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## GrouseBuster (Apr 18, 2004)

Great photos. Thanks for sharing. I think maybe the question you might ask is if you should hunt bear with your gun. Before anyone can really give any reliable input we would need to know the model and SN range. This would help determine if it is an antique built for BP or a post 1910 gun that would be made of stronger steel. Both may still shoot and shoot well but you want to be very carefull about putting rounds through an old gun that are not loaded to black powder specs. I would not choose the 40-65 for a bear hunt here because it takes so long to draw a tag in MI. Also the 40-65 like a lot of the old lever guns has a trajectory like a rainbow. However if you limit your range and try Canada it might be a different story. Also if the sights are not up to hunting you really don't want to alter a fine old gun.
Here is what is written in "Cartridges of the World" about your round.

40-65 Winchester. The 40-65 Winchester & Marlin was introduced in 1887 for the model 1886 Winchester rifle. The winchester 1885 single shot was also chambered for it and so was the 1895 Marlin. The 40-65 Winchester was loaded in both black powder and smokeless powder versions, and Winchester catalogs listed it until 1935. 
The 40-65 was a further attempt to put more steam in the repeating rifles cartridges so they could become more competitive with similar single shot rifles. This one, reasonably popular continued for almost fifety years. Rifles in this chambering are common and ammunition can be made by reforming 45-70 cases. Although groove diameter was typically 0.408, origional load bullets were 0.406.

FL 260 Lead Velocity; 1420 Energy; 165
300 lead 24 grains AA 5744 Velocity; 1515 Energy; 1528


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## GrouseBuster (Apr 18, 2004)

If your gun is a 40-60 it is less powerfull than the 40-65 and only slightly more powerfull than the old 44-40 in factory loadings. If you handload and your gun is up to it you might squeek out mild 44 mag like velocities but this is certainly not a wise idea in an antique. If you would like to post or PM the model and SN range I can likely give production dates, numbers and general values for your gun. It might be a lot more advisable to try the old gal out on a deer hunt if she perfoms once your ammo arrives. Be warned, Old lever guns can be addicting. :lol: 
Here is the detail from "Cartridges of the world" on the 40-60 Marlin.

The 40-60 is one of the chamberings for Marlin 1881 and 1895 lever action repeaters. The 1895 uses the same basic system as the 1893 and 1894 models, but it is larger and longer. This appears to be the same case as the 40-65 Winchester, but with a slightly different loading. The pump action Colt New Lightening also used the Marlin loading of this cartridge.
During the 1880's the same cartridge often went under various names depending on who loaded it or whose rifle it was used in. It was also common practice to change the name if you furnished more than one load or bullet in the same case; this is what happened here. The 40-60 Marlin and the 40-65 Winchester are interchangeable and either can be used in the same gun. However, the old ideal catalog states the 40-60 Marlin "must NOT be confused with the 40-60 Winchester as they are not the same." This of course is true. If the reader is not thoroughly confused by now, he should be. Go ahead. Read it through a few more times and it will clear up. Converting 45-70 cases into 40-60 Marlin cases is easily done. Marlin 40-caliber rifles often have significantly oversize bores. Groove diameters as large as 0.414 inch are noted.

FL 260 lead Velocity; 1385 Energy: 1115

260 Lead 23 grains IMR 4198 velocity; 1500 Energy 1308


If you are going to get serious about hunting bear with this one you will likely need to slug the bore and re-load. You might find properly stamped brass from the old western scrounger. Sounds like fun to me!


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

I have no idea if the pic of the rifle made it, but if it didn't its in the gallery.

Here's the information on the rifle..... (I'm gonna kill a bar with it  )

MARLIN FIRE - ARMS Co. NEW-HAVEN CT. U.S.A.

Pat'd Feb. 7, 63 Jan 7, 73 Sept. 14, 75 Nov. 19 & 25, 78 June 3, 79
Dec. 9, 79 Nov. 9, 80 Reissue Nov. 9, 1880
40 cal.

Serial number 138XX

Its a fine old bear killer, hope I can score one too. I might just have to take a deer with it first. I'll start applying for MI permits but I may just have to take a Canadian bear.
Its just got to be exciting!


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## GrouseBuster (Apr 18, 2004)

Encore you need to edit the SN. Never put a full SN on an open forum. Just replace the last few digits with X's like 138XX.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT ! THE PIC MADE IT ! SEE ALL YOU YOUNGSTERS OUT THERE, YOU CAN TEACH AN OLD DOG NEW TRICKS !

By the way, I'd like to thank everyone that has posted replys here. This has been extremely educational.
I think that I'm might just become a full time bear hunter. The posts that I've been reading here, sure don't have all the arguements that the deer hunting posts do.
Thanks again............


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

You're Right ! I Never Gave It A Second Of Thought.
It Won't Happen Again.


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## GrouseBuster (Apr 18, 2004)

It appears you have a second or third standard model 1881 Marlin. It is certainly an antique. I would really advise caution before you shoot it. Talk to the guy you ordered the ammo from and make sure it is BP safe. The specs you listed for the ammo seem really hot for this gun. Personally I'd say you should not hunt this one. The very last thing you want to do is trip and break or destroy a piece of history like that. I have collected Winchesters for a long time but I am no Marlin expert. There are forums out there just for Marlin owners and collectors. I can not make an accurate guess based on a photo but book value is around $1500 ish depending a LOT on the condition of the gun. Why not get yourself a new Marlin 1895 Cowboy with an octagon barrel in 45-70? You can carry on the family tradition with a gun that will certainly drop ole blacky in his tracks.


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## GrouseBuster (Apr 18, 2004)

www.armscollectors.com/sn/marlinlookup.php

Date of production is 1886.

This was the first Marlin lever action rifle and was considered superior to the Winchester 1886. A number of special order features were available and would increase the value of the rifle depending on the feature. I would contact the cody Firearms museum and see if they have records for Marlin in this SN range. If so you can get a Cody yellow sheet for $55 listing the DOP, caliber, ship date and any options. The letter is worth the $$ and it will add to the value of the gun. 6,261 were made in 40 cal. This gun was also available in 45-70. My sources indicate factory records start at SN 4001 so they should be available. The origional finish was blue with a case colored hammer, lever and buttplate.


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

Encore - 

If you want, go to www.24hourcampfire.com and get into the forums, there is one stricktly for marlin lever guns. Those guys can give you some info on that rifle.


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## GrouseBuster (Apr 18, 2004)

The Buffalo Bill Historical society and Cody Firearms museum

www.bbhc.org/firearms/index.cfm

Paco Kellys lever gun forum. This is probably the most active lever forum on the net.

www.leverguns.com

And a few more for good measure.

www.Marlinowners.com

www.Marlin-collectors.com


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## Nimrod1 (Apr 26, 2004)

Encore,
There are units in the UP where you stand a very good chance of drawing a tag every year. If your heart is set on the Atlanta area, your looking at 4-5 years for a tag.
I totally understand your desire to use that old gun for a bear, and I would really like to see you be successful with it, but you should heed Grousebusters words of caution. The last thing you would want to do is turn the old girl into scrap and get hurt in the process. Double make sure the loads will be safe in your gun. Best of luck and keep us posted.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Not set on the Atlanta area at all. That just happened to be the last place that this rifle was used to shoot a bear.
I'd certainly be very much willing to hunt in the UP. Actually, never have. That's kinda sad now that I think about it.
Which units in the UP is one most likely, or has a higher percentage of chance to get a permit?
Also, within those units, any recommendations for outfitters/guides?

When I talked to the rep at Buffalo Arms, I fully informed him of the rifle which I have. I also had the concern of shooting modern loads in this rifle. He assured me that their loadings were very similar to the original factory loadings. I had the choice of smokeless or black power rounds also.
As far as shooting the rifle, I've only got one other choice. Put it in the safe and just leave it there.
I have a Winchester Model 12 TRAP which was made in 1936. Its a Blackdiamond and its condition is considered excellent. When I called and discussed this Model 12 with a Winchester rep., he said that there are two things that you can do with a gun like that. "Shoot it or put it back in the safe." He's right. Every once in awhile I head to the trap range.
I certainly want to shoot safe ammunition out of this rifle. It was purchased new and has always been in the family.
I thank everyone again for their wilingness to share information and recommendations. I'm listening guys


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## Nimrod1 (Apr 26, 2004)

Here is a link to the DNR site that shows how many points were needed to get tags by unit/hunt period. It will show you where to go if you want a tag first time out, or it will show you how long you should expect to wait to get a tag for the time/place that you want. 
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/05_bear_drawing_results_127044_7.pdf

This link will give you historical harvest data.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10856_10890-26012--,00.html

As for recommendations for guides/outfitters in the UP, I have no experience or knowledge of any, sorry.


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