# Flushing dog trial format question



## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Are there currently any sanctioned trial formats that both spaniels and labs can compete head to head?


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

FieldWalker said:


> Are there currently any sanctioned trial formats that both spaniels and labs can compete head to head?


 
Not that I know of. As of now anyway in the US Cockers and Springers don't compete against each other. I don't keep up much with the Spaniel er... flushing AKC Hunt Tests to know if labs are allowed as of yet, but it won't be long if not, but then that is not field trial or competition. 

I did quite a few years ago try to work with UKC to make a much stronger flushing dog test with levels that would move on up to a "Grand" sort of like the retriever games, but ran into more of a "headwind" from the retriever folks than I was willing to buck. My vision was to work up to the Grand where there would be maybe 5 series run in brace over a number of days and the dog would have to be clean through all series to get a pass. 

The competition hunting is the only thing I know where they go head to head.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

So do you feel that the spaniel formats are afraid to let the labs play in their games?


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

FieldWalker said:


> So do you feel that the spaniel formats are *afraid *to let the labs play in their games?


Not at all, it is common sense! Have you ever attending AA Retriever training session or a AA Retriever trial?

Have you ever trained with AA field trial Spaniel folks?...not test folks!
Have you been to a AA Springer Trial?

If you do those things you would soon realize that there is NO element of fear between breeds, Spaniels or Labradors and you would realize that the thought process of yours is way out of line. 

"Never the twain shall meet" 

How many Retrievers are bred with these criteria in mind:
_"what makes a spaniel a spaniel"_
_1. Drive, strength of quest,quartering style_
_2. Nose, bird finding ability_
_3. courage in the face of heavy cover_
_4. Strength of flush,boldness_
_5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth_
_6. The dogs acceptance of training_
I doubt very much that the AA retriever community cares about quartering style,strength of flush, courage in the face of heavy cover,and acceptance of training.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

FieldWalker said:


> So do you feel that the spaniel formats are afraid to let the labs play in their games?


Afraid?? No The games are for the betterment of the spaniel breeds. as my signature says:
*"what makes a spaniel a spaniel"
1. Drive, strength of quest,quartering style
2. Nose, bird finding ability
3. courage in the face of heavy cover
4. Strength of flush,boldness
5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
6. The dogs acceptance of training
*
When I tried to work with UKC to develop a flushing test it was the lab people who stopped it in it's tracks because they didn't want spaniels messing with the so called "flushing " test they have and they worried spaniel folks would "water down thier retriever tests.

They may be afraid another breed will change the traits that have been developed over centuries ie why cockers and springers don't trial together. Probablly why retievers don't allow spaniels in their field trials. Probally why cover dog trials don't allow spaniels. Doesn't mean spaniels can't retrieve nor does it mean labs can't hunt (but they can point!)

The AKC flushing test now allows variuos retriever breeds. We will see how this works out in the future.

They do compete head to head in the competitive timed hunting game and both springers and labs hold thier own against each other.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

dauber said:


> Afraid?? No The games are for the betterment of the spaniel breeds. as my signature says:
> *"what makes a spaniel a spaniel"
> 1. Drive, strength of quest,quartering style
> 2. Nose, bird finding ability
> ...


------------------------------------------------------------------

Dauber is right on about what he says...However the OP raised the question about AA Sanctioned trials blending Spaniels and Retrievers.
Lets keep the concept of "Tests" out of the discussion.
Even in the spaniel world those 6 elements of a spaniel
aka
*1. Drive, strength of quest,quartering style
2. Nose, bird finding ability
3. courage in the face of heavy cover
4. Strength of flush,boldness
5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
6. The dogs acceptance of training
* 
Are not part of the Flushing dog test as we know it today, in other words you do not need these 6 traits , behaviors , or skills to pass a "Flushing dog test as we know it. ( See breed running style documents.)

Draw your comparisons from the AA retriever world or the AA Springer or Cocker world. The two spaniel breeds that trial use the same format and judged the same way. when Cocker trial game resurfaced 14-15 yrs ago they decided a s a community to NOT reinvent the wheel, and instead use they adopted Springer trial format. 
As an aside in the Retriever culture as I understand and have witnessed, there are folks that think there Retrievers are flushing dogs and there are folks that think there dogs are pointing dogs. For them to get serious about running in Spaniel AA trials, they would, as a breed have come to a consensus as what the dog is, a pointer or flusher. And then they would to rethink their breeding program and develop dogs that could be defined by those previously mention 6 standards of what makes a spaniel.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

FieldWalker said:


> So do you feel that the spaniel formats are afraid to let the labs play in their games?


What's your point? :sad:


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Jim58 said:


> What's your point? :sad:


Exactly, what is your point?? Are you confusing hunt test with trials? If you know the history of the spaniel hunt test program, they were the ones who opened up their test to Airedale Terriers, curly coated and flat coated retrievers. I've never been to a lab trial, but from what I understand it's more about judgment of the dog on retrieving. Have you ever been to a spaniel Field Trial? 

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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

gundogguy said:


> How many Retrievers are bred with these criteria in mind:
> 
> I doubt very much that the AA retriever community cares about quartering style,strength of flush,* courage in the face of heavy cover,and acceptance of training.*



I agree the AA Retriever community does not care about quartering, style, strength of flush. But the bold above is a stretch. 

(the below has nothing to do with the OP's original post)
Labradors are the most trainable breed in the world, evidence by not the hunting/trialing/testing community but by the working dog world of Military dogs, bomb dogs, paws for a cause ext. Just like English Pointers are the greatest pointing breed in the world.


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> I agree the AA Retriever community does not care about quartering, style, strength of flush. But the bold above is a stretch.
> 
> (the below has nothing to do with the OP's original post)
> Labradors are the most trainable breed in the world, evidence by not the hunting/trialing/testing community but by the working dog world of Military dogs, bomb dogs, paws for a cause ext. Just like English Pointers are the greatest pointing breed in the world.


The British military and other government agencies use springers and cockers for the exact same tasks. 

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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

michgundog said:


> The British military and other government agencies use springers and cockers for the exact same tasks.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 

boy that proves every ones point!:lol:


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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

RGS Fun trials open to all! bring it out, run what ya brung, hope ya brung enough! :evil:


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

jimmyjette14 said:


> RGS Fun trials open to all! bring it out, run what ya brung, hope ya brung enough! :evil:



Hey grease dog owner, RGS trials and the tournament circuit Dauber mentions are not sanctioned venues which the OP inquired about.


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

jimmyjette14 said:


> boy that proves every ones point!:lol:


LOL!! Yeah that was a spin in the opposite direction. Sorry to the OP.

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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

My point isn't to compare trial/test formats but rather the ability for other breeds to participate. 

The same dog competing in an AA retrieving trial *likely* isn't the same dog that would be entered into "spaniel-type" trials. 

It is one thing to compete within your breed, but instead of saying you have "the best" cocker/springer/sheltie/lab/etc., wouldn't you want to say you have the best dog for a particular format? Spaniels are not the only breeds that can come to the line to fulfill your six criteria. 

Other than RGS - are there any non-sanctioned events out there?


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> I agree the AA Retriever community does not care about quartering, style, strength of flush. But the* bold *above is a stretch.
> 
> (the below has nothing to do with the OP's original post)
> Labradors are the most trainable breed in the world, evidence by not the hunting/trialing/testing community but by the working dog world of Military dogs, bomb dogs, paws for a cause ext. Just like English Pointers are the greatest pointing breed in the world.



*BOLD*... Not a stretch just a different definition.
Considering the AA retriever folks talk about Style and Momentum. AA Spaniel folks talk about Drive and Animation. Different strokes for different folks.
"Never the twain shall meet"


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

FieldWalker said:


> My point isn't to compare trial/test formats but rather the ability for other breeds to participate.
> 
> The same dog competing in an AA retrieving trial *likely* isn't the same dog that would be entered into "spaniel-type" trials.
> 
> ...


I believe there's shooting dog challenges out there. They use to be on the outdoor channel all the time. I know labs did real well in that format. The only spaniel that I can recall was a Boykin, that was always in the top placements. Put that same boykin in a trial against a springer or cocker it would not make it past the first series. 

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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

michgundog said:


> I believe there's shooting dog challenges out there. They use to be on the outdoor channel all the time. I know labs did real well in that format. The only spaniel that I can recall was a Boykin, that was always in the top placements. Put that same boykin in a trial against a springer or cocker it would not make it past the first series.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Mike,

I think I know of the Boykin you speak of, a buddy of mine was researching boykins (his wife had an aversion for no good reason to Cockers, Springers, and Labs  which was the direction I was pushing) so the guy in Indian, Brandy Creek, or Brandy Wine sent me some videos.

It was a fast athletic dog. 

How do you think the Cockers and Springers would fare in the Tournament Hunting situation vs. that Boykin? 

I think it's more dog specific and training for that venue than breed specific but curious as to what you think.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

FieldWalker said:


> My point isn't to compare trial/test formats but rather the ability for other breeds to participate.
> 
> T*he same dog competing in an AA retrieving trial *likely* isn't the same dog that would be entered into "spaniel-type" trials. *
> 
> ...


Fieldwalke,the OP has changed the thread not sure why?

My point exactly, it all is in the eye of beholder. As Dauber mention in working with Retriever types he met all kinds of head winds about how the dogs should run in a flushing dog test. The retriever folks wanted it one way and Dauber could not change the spaniel system to fit there concepts. Remember that was a test situation, not an AA trial
A point of fact is that there are two sanction events that retrievers can enter both are tests, that I'm aware of. HRC Upland Flushing test, which by the way Spaniels may participate. and the APLA Pointing Lab Association, which by the way Spaniel Cannot participate, the spaniel flushes it does not point as a rule of style.
Obviously if a dog passes the flushing test I would think it would struggle in the pointing dog test and vice versa..unless flushing or pointing is not very well understood by the participating panel of judges. Something smelly if a dog is titled in both of those venues.
If you notice the AKC in their test program does not offer at this time,they may be thinking about it , seeing how many entries HRC is acquiring ,but at this time there is no upland flushing dog test in the AKC retriever test world!

Something to leave you with. I have trained EP,ES and even Large Munsterlander's I would never contemplate running and LM in a AA pointing dog event


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

michgundog said:


> I believe there's shooting dog challenges out there. They use to be on the outdoor channel all the time. I know labs did real well in that format. The only spaniel that I can recall was a Boykin, that was always in the top placements. _*Put that same boykin in a trial against a springer or cocker it would not make it past the first series. *_
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


+1 to Mike.
Boykin's fill a nice niche as a rare breed spaniels, just not enough range or drive to run with Cockers or Springers and also a host of gnome issues that go back to the Chessie, Temperament issue, skin issue, joint issue both fore and aft. I always feel sorry for the folks that show up to training class ( over the years have had a dozen or so).


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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> Hey grease dog owner, RGS trials and the tournament circuit Dauber mentions are not sanctioned venues which the OP inquired about.


ok but when did this forum EVER stay TO the letter on any subject?
I was giving an option that many of us have moved to. because of the rules or just plain likes of a speciel breed group! ie words like style , undefined, sorry judge does not like that style. I have trained with springers from the beginning, my dogs are not tripping over there feet on a turn like the springers, if that is style ok. my dog stays standing on its feet. point deduction, but lets put 2 feet of snow down and when there fire breather stand and looks at them 2 feet in. on the same coarse or at the bird field my dog is going to be looking pretty smart:xzicon_sm


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

You go ahead old man and hunt in two feet of snow....I'll go fishing


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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> You go ahead old man and hunt in two feet of snow....I'll go fishing


 you fish in snow? oh you use a snowbile to troll? I got it. beside I dont eat fish! or woodcock, they both eat worms:gaga: but I do like dueling with you Fred


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

jimmyjette14 said:


> ok but when did this forum EVER stay TO the letter on any subject?
> I was giving an option that many of us have moved to. because of the rules or just plain likes of a speciel breed group! ie words like style , undefined, sorry judge does not like that style. I have trained with springers from the beginning, my dogs are not tripping over there feet on a turn like the springers, if that is style ok. my dog stays standing on its feet. point deduction, but lets put 2 feet of snow down and when there fire breather stand and looks at them 2 feet in. on the same coarse or at the bird field my dog is going to be looking pretty smart:xzicon_sm


I think we need an interpreter and a translator, what did Jimmyjette say here?


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> Mike,
> 
> I think I know of the Boykin you speak of, a buddy of mine was researching boykins (his wife had an aversion for no good reason to Cockers, Springers, and Labs  which was the direction I was pushing) so the guy in Indian, Brandy Creek, or Brandy Wine sent me some videos.
> 
> ...


They would have a tough time, that Boykin assuming it was the same one was very impressive. Not mention the owner was an awesome shot. 

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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

In talking about the trial standard that is in the post for springers, the word STYLE is used, well is that a clear judge item? the dog found 2 birds is. but style no, that is up to someones interpetation is it not? so a dog that falls over in the turn to beat some clock ? is good. a dog that works with purpose, does not have THE STYLE, just pointing this out. there was some other loose terms that are not fact but opinion of judge, now put that to the tv show hunt competetion, time ,birds, shots= score all dogs play . question?


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

I don't believe this has strayed from my OP... in my title I asked about flushing dog trial formats.... not spaniel formats or bust. Anyone can say breed "x" couldn't cut it in their breed specific format, but why not drop the the breed specification? 

This topic hits home for me as I am currently in the process of researching my next dog (2-3 years out)... considering the fact that I will not be trialing the dog, I am having a hard time on some leads if the spaniel community finds it necessary to bury their heads in the sand and say/assume their breed/format is superior when that particular breed never competes with other breeds.

Owning the fastest 4 cylinder cavalier on the block, doesn't mean you own the fastest car.


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

FieldWalker said:


> I don't believe this has strayed from my OP... in my title I asked about flushing dog trial formats.... not spaniel formats or bust. Anyone can say breed "x" couldn't cut it in their breed specific format, but why not drop the the breed specification?
> 
> This topic hits home for me as I am currently in the process of researching my next dog (2-3 years out)... considering the fact that I will not be trialing the dog, I am having a hard time on some leads if the spaniel community finds it necessary to bury their heads in the sand and say/assume their breed/format is superior when that particular breed never competes with other breeds.
> 
> Owning the fastest 4 cylinder cavalier on the block, doesn't mean you own the fastest car.


Again the spaniel community has been very supportive of other breeds. Which is why the spaniel hunt test program has welcomed other breeds. If your looking into spaniels the Southern Michigan Springer Spaniel Training Club will start training in March at Highland and Lapeer your welcome to come out. But comparing spaniel trials to lab trials is like comparing apples to oranges.

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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

jimmyjette14 said:


> you fish in snow? oh you use a snowbile to troll? I got it. beside I dont eat fish! or woodcock, they both eat worms:gaga: but I do like dueling with you Fred


Are you forgetting his forum name is Steelheadfred, not Bassheadfred.

Which by the way does not have quite the same ring to it. :lol:

Maybe its that you have never got to enjoy 1000 men bend or sawdust hole in the snow. It may be one of the best outdoor experience there is on the right day.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Jim58 said:


> Are you forgetting his forum name is Steelheadfred, not Bassheadfred.
> 
> Which by the way does not have quite the same ring to it. :lol:
> 
> Maybe its that you have never got to enjoy 1000 men bend or sawdust hole in the snow. It may be one of the best outdoor experience there is on the right day.


Different bend than mentioned above, but well worth the effort.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

FieldWalker said:


> I don't believe this has strayed from my OP... in my title I asked about flushing dog trial formats.... not spaniel formats or bust. Anyone can say breed "x" couldn't cut it in their breed specific format, but why not drop the the breed specification?
> 
> This topic hits home for me as I am currently in the process of researching my next dog (2-3 years out)... considering the fact that I will not be trialing the dog, I am having a hard time on some leads if the spaniel community finds it necessary to bury their heads in the sand and say/assume their breed/format is superior when that particular breed never competes with other breeds.
> 
> Owning the fastest 4 cylinder cavalier on the block, doesn't mean you own the fastest car.


No where does any of us spaniel lovers say our trials are "superior" to any other breeds trial. What we say is they are the BEST for spaniels to demonstrate these traits, the traits that make a spaniel a spaniel;
*1. Drive, strength of quest,quartering style
2. Nose, bird finding ability
3. courage in the face of heavy cover
4. Strength of flush,boldness
5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
6. The dogs acceptance of training
*This format of trialing has brought the spaniel breeds that participte to the levels they are today. They are not meant to compete against other breeds or classes of sporting dogs (ie pointers, setters, Munsterlanders) they are meant to improve and compare apples to apples (or spaniels to spaniels). 

If you are truely researching breeds for a dog 2 to 3 years out (which I highly doubt) you would be best served by reading Gundogguys last post on the Spaniel Corner. His great suggestions could easily be used for deciding on a breed to get in the future too. Watching a trial with very different types of dogs competing with rules that favor one breed doesn't really prove anything.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Steelheadfred said:


> Different bend than mentioned above, but well worth the effort.


Beautiful, I sure miss living up there it used to be so easy to find time when it was half an hour down the road.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

dauber said:


> Watching a trial with very different types of dogs competing with rules that favor one breed doesn't really prove anything.



Steve,

Can you expand on above, I was not aware of a trial that had different breeds competing but had rules that favored one breed over another? 

I guess you could consider cover dog trials that way, they favor Setter's and Pointers but I feel that those dogs have lines that more or less meet the trial criteria to be competitive.

Thanks




> The time I spend actually watching the prospective stud work..training Is more important,to me than viewing the dog in a trial or hunting, is essential to understanding the the dog overall make up and the relationship that he has with his owner/handler..
> And how long did it take for the owner handler to establish a good working relationship. How much force was needed to establish the working habits that I would expect to see in a potential suitor. This a thumb nail sketch for sure.


Hal's advice on the other thread, very well said and cover's more than just one breed.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Steelheadfred said:


> Steve,
> 
> Can you expand on above, I was not aware of a trial that had different breeds competing but had rules that favored one breed over another?
> 
> ...


I was refering to the OP's wants. An example for him would be to have cockers running in retriever trials. Could they do some of the things asked of the Labs in the trial...possibly, if trained from the beginning to do them. But does it tell you if cockers as a breed are better than labs at retriever trials. Or even as the OP wants "not to trial" but for him to know if they are better by competing head to head in a trial, I'm not sure what that information that gives you. I guess that would mean since cockers cannot compete against labs in retriever trials that lab people are burying thier heads in the sand and how can anyone know what breed is best for them???

In the cover dog trials at least both Setter people and Pointer people have input in the rules and setups. In retriever trials lab, chessy and golden people have input to the rules and setups, but spaniel trials are supposed to let "Fieldwalker" decide if it meets his wants and needs.

It is obvious that the OP really insn't interested in seeing both types of dogs work since it has been ignored that they both can participate in UKC upland and RGS trials, he has some other axe to grind.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

> I was refering to the OP's wants. An example for him would be to have cockers running in retriever trials. Could they do some of the things asked of the Labs in the trial...possibly, if trained from the beginning to do them. But does it tell you if cockers as a breed are better than labs at retriever trials. Or even as the OP wants "not to trial" but for him to know if they are better by competing head to head in a trial, I'm not sure what that information that gives you. I guess that would mean since cockers cannot compete against labs in retriever trials that lab people are burying thier heads in the sand and how can anyone know what breed is best for them?



Makes sense Steve thanks.


I think the best way to pick a pup is to go hunt behind a bunch of different dogs and breeds and lines within the breeds and decide what you like, then ask where that person got their dogs.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

I do not have an axe to grind... I have also never mentioned anything about retriever trials so I don't know why that keeps getting brought up. What I am interested in is a flushing dog. Whether that is a lab or spaniel is something I'm going through now.

I grew up hunting behind springers and currently own pointing dogs and my interest in flushing dogs is legitimate... To the point I have to clear my internet history so my wife doesn't find out I'm already looking or another dog!


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Well that and porn Scott

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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Steelheadfred said:


> Well that and porn Scott
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


There is porn on the inter-web?:gaga:


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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> Makes sense Steve thanks.
> 
> 
> I think the best way to pick a pup is to go hunt behind a bunch of different dogs and breeds and lines within the breeds and decide what you like, then ask where that person got their dogs.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

FieldWalker said:


> This topic hits home for me as I am currently in the process of researching my next dog (2-3 years out)... considering the fact that I will not be trialing the dog, I am having a hard time on some leads if the spaniel community finds it necessary to bury their heads in the sand and say/assume their breed/format is superior when that particular breed never competes with other breeds.
> 
> Owning the fastest 4 cylinder cavalier on the block, doesn't mean you own the fastest car.


Say WHAT?? A spaniel is not a breed. And what does a long extinct coupe have to do with anything?

Do you want to try that again, but in English, this time? You must have gone to school in Detroit. And you very obviously have a giant burr up your *** over something.

Your entire thread is B.S., pure B.S.


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