# The Spaniel Corner II



## dauber

Here we go again, the Spaniel Corner II. As Gundogguy said in the first edition here is a place for us spaniel lovers to share successes, pictures, stories, training tips, updates on puppies and anything spaniel.

I will have to dig out my pattern pictures since I know that irritates the CDR's:evil:.

Carry on!


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Here we go again, the Spaniel Corner II. As Gundogguy said in the first edition here is a place for us spaniel lovers to share successes, pictures, stories, training tips, updates on puppies and anything spaniel.
> 
> I will have to dig out my pattern pictures since I know that irritates the CDR's:evil:.
> 
> Carry on!


Dauber, You're WAY too funny! Love it!


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## michgundog

…


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> As I mentioned 2 other guys who made impressive jumps from hunt test to AA trials are Mike Pollack and the other is Mark Gebert. In fact Mike's Julep won the puppy stake at the OK trial in a 10 puppy entry just a couple weeks ago. Mike's dog Julep is an AI dog out of hall of Famer Brickclose Matchwood aka Badger. Here's a picture of his booker dog I will guarantee he will blow the doors off any lab out there.
> View attachment 34886
> View attachment 34887
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


There's an up and comer!! Nice pics. Boy that's gotta be one hum dinger being a "Badger" boy.


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## dauber

Just got my Paul French 2013 Cocker Championship video tonight. I'll have to put that on continuos loop tomorrow:lol: The bunny being carried on the cover looks as big as the cocker!


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> There's an up and comer!! Nice pics. Boy that's gotta be one hum dinger being a "Badger" boy.[


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Actually Julep is a badger girl. I believe Booker may go back to him. I know he has Hal's Alex dog in him.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Opps my boo boo. That's my first Julep.


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## yooperguy

The corner is back... and locked. At least all the old info is there. 

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## NEMichsportsman

Lets get back to civility. The moderating staff being bombarded by reported posts....A couple parties need to sort out differences via pm..... or just let it go. Thanks to all for the cooperation! 

Post away!


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## Benelli

Guessing poster Glenmorangie = Laphroaig

Just a hunch

Although I am a Brit homer, I enjoyed checking in on the spaniel corner thread on occasion. Thanks for all of your constructive input, and please keep up the good flow of dog and training info!!


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## gundogguy

NEMichsportsman said:


> Lets get back to civility. The moderating staff being bombarded by reported posts....A couple parties need to sort out differences via pm..... or just let it go. Thanks to all for the cooperation!
> 
> Post away!


There is not enough cheese made in Wisconsin to cover all the "whining" you get.
Pray tell what areas are off limits so we spaniel types in are spanielizing do not upset the "Whiners".
Any information on this subject would be much appreciated. I would appreciate a public answer and so would others.
Thank-you


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> As I mentioned 2 other guys who made impressive jumps from hunt test to AA trials are Mike Pollack and the other is Mark Gebert. In fact Mike's Julep won the puppy stake at the OK trial in a 10 puppy entry just a couple weeks ago. Mike's dog Julep is an AI dog out of hall of Famer* Brickclose Matchwood aka Badger. Here's a picture of his booker dog I will guarantee he will blow the doors *off any lab out there.
> 
> View attachment 34886
> View attachment 34887
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


In a previous thread i had mentioned that I had sold a pup that I was the breeder of. That pup went on to become the first Spaniel to make the requirements to become and HRC title retriever..
His sire *Brickclose Matchwood in the dog world cream allways rises to the top
Hie-on!
*


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## gundogguy

Benelli said:


> Guessing poster &#8220;Glenmorangie&#8221; = &#8220;Laphroaig&#8221;
> 
> Just a hunch&#8230;
> 
> Although I am a Brit homer, I enjoyed checking in on the spaniel corner thread on occasion. Thanks for all of your constructive input, and please keep up the good flow of dog and training info!!


Benelli I know you are trying hard, and I'm glad you have enjoyed the Corner however Glenmorangilaphroag has nothing to do with spanieling. With Mods keeping and eye on things here please keep on the track
dauber said"place for us spaniel lovers to share successes, pictures, stories, training tips, updates on puppies and *anything spaniel. and we spanielers all agree with that!
Thanks a bunch!
*


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## gundogguy

In the original there were 2 vids i have added a third that demonstrates how to layer behaviors in and during the training session

10/21 17weeks of age!





3/24/13 34 weeks of age






and during the same session elementary doubles were added!






When we go back to singles with gunfire she will be completely at ease and underwhelmed by her new found behaviors.
Updates coming at any time now, momentum is building!


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## NATTY BUMPO

BIG THANKS for posting these Zeta vids, Hal.

Excellent Compare and Contrast of the training progress of a puppy. Great info for the new entry.

She's very flashy and I luv the happy tail, going all the time. Keep them coming.

NB


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> BIG THANKS for posting these Zeta vids, Hal.
> 
> Excellent Compare and Contrast of the training progress of a puppy. Great info for the new entry.
> 
> She's very flashy and* I luv the happy tail*, going all the time. Keep them coming.
> 
> NB


If you luv her happy tail you'll lust over the body part that finds the bird.
short clip of her taking a running pigeon that two other dogs
(non-spaniels) failed on!
and she drives thru the flush





Zeta is just more fun than I have had in some time!


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Here we go again, the Spaniel Corner II. As Gundogguy said in the first edition here is a place for us spaniel lovers to share successes, pictures, stories, training tips, updates on puppies and anything spaniel.
> 
> I will have to dig out my pattern pictures since I know that irritates the CDR's:evil:.
> 
> Carry on!


+1

Great stuff, Dauber. LMAOROTFL:yikes:

Hie On, Spaniel people!!

NB


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## Duece22

Hie-on Setterers!


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## JAM

I wish there was a "LIKE" button here. I'd be clicking on a lot of them.

Glad we're back!


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## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> Hie-on Setterers!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



:lol::lol::lol::lol:No such word:lol::lol::lol::lol:!!
Just Spanielizing!


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## Glenmorangie

gundogguy said:


> Glen Morgie the man in the photo was paid by a farmer to shoot those wood pigeons that were attacking the farmer new planted bean field Just north of London England, the pigeons were then subsequently sold to a Fowl purveyor that in turn distributed the bird to markets all around London. There are paid Pigeon and crow shooters all over england, on two occasion i have been allow to go with some of the finest wing shots i have ever seen. Link will give you a sample of what It's like
> 700+ Birds shot - YouTube
> 
> And as far as your taste for game goes that is your opinion, I just do not share it!!



I'm all for wood pigeon shoots. I've been to Argentina on a dove hunt. The locals eat it all. No problem. I'm talking about the "bucket of birds" you said you shoot daily. I think I have made my point.

Yes, Muscovy done properly, preferably at the hand of an elderly oriental lady with copious cups of sake' is quite palatable with good company.


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## gundogguy

Glenmorangie said:


> I'm all for wood pigeon shoots. I've been to Argentina on a dove hunt. The locals eat it all. No problem. I'm talking about the "bucket of birds" you said you shoot daily. I think I have made my point.
> 
> Yes, Muscovy done properly, preferably at the hand of an elderly oriental lady with copious cups of sake' is quite palatable with good company.



You got to break eggs to make an omelet, got to a kill birds to make retrieving gun dog.


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## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> You got to break eggs to make an omelet, got to a kill birds to make retrieving gun dog.


And you need wild birds and contacts to make a wild bird dog. Pigeons don't teach a dog the Wiley ways of a ruff or a rooster. 


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## 2ESRGR8

duece22 said:


> and you need wild birds and contacts to make a wild bird dog. Pigeons don't teach a dog the wiley ways of a ruff or a rooster.


boom!


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## michgundog

They sell squab on a regular basis at Eastern Market in Detroit. If I were starving or after 8 more years of Obama I may have to start eating my training birds. 


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## Glenmorangie

gundogguy said:


> You got to break eggs to make an omelet, got to a kill birds to make retrieving gun dog.



Really? You do?
What am I going to do with all my Dokken dummies then?

For my setter pup, please tell me you're not saying it takes more than a wing on a string. That's all I was figuring to do every day up until Sept. 15th.


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## gundogguy

Glenmorangie said:


> Really? You do?
> What am I going to do with all my Dokken dummies then?
> 
> For my setter pup, please tell me you're not saying it takes more than a wing on a string. That's all I was figuring to do every day up until Sept. 15th.


Getting back to thread 's mission statement.
Here ya go if you think that this could help your setter pup be my guest,






Hie -on!


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## Glenmorangie

gundogguy said:


> Getting back to thread 's mission statement.
> Here ya go if you think that this could help your setter pup be my guest,
> 
> Training Jamie Clip 1- HUP! - YouTube
> 
> Hie -on!


Noooooo Thank you.
When I gave my labs a whistle sit and then an arm gesture "left"; it wasn't a suggestion. That poor bastard is gonna give himself tennis elbow or brucitis pumping his arm to get that dog to take a hand signal. If "Hie on" means goodbye, then I won't let the door hit me where the Good Lord split me.


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Hie -on!


Great video as usual, Hal. Thanks for sharing.


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## I'm with Brandy

Duece22 said:


> Doug, are you coming to super singles?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I did not get the sign up e-mail for the supper singles. I will have to call Mike Saur and see if I can get a copy. If I have time we will be there. Not sure we can win but we can beat some of those labs again this year.


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## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> I did not get the sign up e-mail for the supper singles. I will have to call Mike Saur and see if I can get a copy. If I have time we will be there. Not sure we can win but we can beat some of those labs again this year.


Hie on, Brandy!


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## I'm with Brandy

I find that I have no reason to be heavy handed with my springer when we do non slip retriever work she takes to it quite well and eagerly takes the command. We have a few things to clean up before we run our Finished test in May. Working on blinds, past, through and under the arc of mark. We need three more passes to finish the title.
Glenmorangie,
Do you run hunt test or trials with your labs?


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## gundogguy

1. Drive strength of quest,quartering style
2. Nose, bird finding ability
3. courage in the face of heavy cover
4. Strength of flush,boldness
5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
6. Manner`s response to commands and steadiness

Basic elements of Scoring or Judging Spaniels:
Hunt test the scoring is done *objectively* a "bar" has been set in each of the catagories and dog needs to meet or surpass the standard ask for at each level of testing. the "judging" is really more like score keeper than a judge. Talent is not being assessed or rewarded just whether or not performances are met for the prescribed standards. There is no high in test or and additional award for high overal scoring. A pass is a pass. 

Spaniel Trial judging is done on a *subjective* basis. There is not a point system for the judging panel to follow. This is a talent contest that judges are looking for the best dogs that day. The criteria used are the 6 items listed above, and they are used as a guide. Here is where it can be confusing. One judge can and will have a particular fondness for a spaniel work in say area 2. Nose and bird finding ability and not so much in area 5, Retrieveing, On a particular day a judge may be looking for impeccable area 6 manners. Some judges maybe more impressed by hard charging ridge runners and some may desire spot on retrieves.
Not all dogs running possess all 6 traits in their entirety We would like think our dogs do however non are perfect.

I do know that Doug and Brandy had some problems with a judge who claimed that in Doug's words Brandy had the wrong conformation for trialing and that was shame Conformation is just not part of the sport. And i think it is a shame that Doug was treated that way..However If that comment by that inexperienced non thinking judge is all it takes to keep a person from trialing...Doug you got off easy, because the sport is way to demanding to play it with a thin skin. The test game may be a more comfortable place to play.
It is not a game every one should play the subjective side of the sport is real hard to understand sometimes..

Hopefully Gavan will chime in on this, I do know he had a placement a couple weeks ago and he may be in training zone he does not need much to make AFC but he still needs something to get there.


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## N M Mechanical

gundogguy said:


> 1. Drive strength of quest,quartering style
> 2. Nose, bird finding ability
> 3. courage in the face of heavy cover
> 4. Strength of flush,boldness
> 5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
> 6. Manner`s response to commands and steadiness
> 
> Basic elements of Scoring or Judging Spaniels:
> Hunt test the scoring is done *objectively* a "bar" has been set in each of the catagories and dog needs to meet or surpass the standard ask for at each level of testing. the "judging" is really more like score keeper than a judge. Talent is not being assessed or rewarded just whether or not performances are met for the prescribed standards. There is no high in test or and additional award for high overal scoring. A pass is a pass.
> 
> Spaniel Trial judging is done on a *subjective* basis. There is not a point system for the judging panel to follow. This is a talent contest that judges are looking for the best dogs that day. The criteria used are the 6 items listed above, and they are used as a guide. Here is where it can be confusing. One judge can and will have a particular fondness for a spaniel work in say area 2. Nose and bird finding ability and not so much in area 5, Retrieveing, On a particular day a judge may be looking for impeccable area 6 manners. Some judges maybe more impressed by hard charging ridge runners and some may desire spot on retrieves.
> Not all dogs running possess all 6 traits in their entirety We would like think our dogs do however non are perfect.
> 
> I do know that Doug and Brandy had some problems with a judge who claimed that in Doug's words Brandy had the wrong conformation for trialing and that was shame Conformation is just not part of the sport. And i think it is a shame that Doug was treated that way..However If that comment by that inexperienced non thinking judge is all it takes to keep a person from trialing...Doug you got off easy, because the sport is way to demanding to play it with a thin skin. The test game may be a more comfortable place to play.
> It is not a game every one should play the subjective side of the sport is real hard to understand sometimes..
> 
> Hopefully Gavan will chime in on this, I do know he had a placement a couple weeks ago and he may be in training zone he does not need much to make AFC but he still needs something to get there.


Hal from that description of those 6 traits what do the labs or other flushers not carry?

Because what I look for in my lab is every thing you described except #1 and I want seek objectives and run to the front


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## NATTY BUMPO

I'm with Brandy said:


> I did not get the sign up e-mail for the supper singles. I will have to call Mike Saur and see if I can get a copy. If I have time we will be there. Not sure we can win but we can beat some of those labs again this year.


Hope they let you in, Doug. Probably left you out on purpose; didnt like getting beat by a pretty little *spaniel*, for gosh sakes.

Do you like my new sig line?

NB


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## Duece22

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Hope they let you in, Doug. Probably left you out on purpose; didnt like getting beat by a pretty little *spaniel*, for gosh sakes.
> 
> Do you like my new sig line?
> 
> NB


Rodney, Brandy did a great job last year and I hope Doug can come again and maybe win the whole thing. Good marking ability is much more valuable than speed, but a dog that has both on that day is tough to beat. 

Your sig line is nice but doesn't really match up with your previous disparaging remarks about other breeds. A new leaf being turned over? 


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## N M Mechanical




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## gundogguy

N M Mechanical said:


> Hal from that description of those 6 traits what do the labs or other flushers not carry?
> 
> Because what I look for in my lab is every thing you described except #1 and I want seek objectives and run to the front


With objective evaluation of dogs we would discover many dogs here on the forum that "carry" these traits. Traits is really not the correct term considering that many of the items listed are trained behaviors. Traits would be genetic characteristics. If we are still discussing AA spaniel trials the evaluation of the dogs enter or judged if you will is done subjectively. 
The reason I also highlighted Deuce statement concerning Doug's Brandy is because that statement is highly subjective.
If i was running a dog that was as well schooled as Brandy is, then i would look for judging panels that highly value marking the fall of bird over speed.
Back at the turn of the century,just love that term, Our Holly dog was a similar type, what she lacking in blazing speed she had an adequate flush, instant responce to the whistle and absoulute spot on marking ability and awesome mouth She made champion in 6 trials 2 wins 2 2nds and a 3rd.
We ran her under judges that heavy English training and experiences, we stay away from judges from out west and Ohio who would rather look at ridge runners, Like our Alex dog. alex was way to powerful to run with any good results under judges that like more control. 
I' sure you have very nice dog>



Duece22 said:


> Rodney, Brandy did a great job last year and I hope Doug can come again and maybe win the whole thing. Good marking ability is much more valuable than speed, but a dog that has both on that day is tough to beat.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


There you go subjective judging of Doug's Brandy

That's all nothing more nothing less. could the judge have handle it better??? Sure!! He could have *lied* to Doug just to let him down easy.
You know put some "spin" on the answer to Doug's question of" WHY? is my dog not back to the third series? THE LIE OR SPIN " Your dog ran under me once she did well, but I had 4 dogs ahead of her. My Co-judge never brought her up when we discussed which dogs we were going to bring back to the third, he had 5 dogs he was interested in seeing, her number was not in the group.

Personally and I was not there, I think the judge,whoever it was, did Doug a favor. Doug really enjoys the work he is doing with Brandy, and culture he is doing it in so much so that he really wants to run AKC Retriever tests


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## I'm with Brandy

Here is my basic problem with Springer trials. Many bad traits are over looked if a dog shows hard wild flushes on the edge of control and meets the looks that the judge likes. The last trial I went to I watched the dog that placed fourth shred its bird. It didn't even bring back a whole bird. In the fourth round it dropped one bird 4 times and stood on it and pulled it apart. Not a genetic trait I would breed but that dog had been bred. 
The dog that won that trial was a great dog and did a great job. But I saw dogs that could not mark a bird 30 yards away, shredding birds, butter mouth retrieves. I was not impressed from a hunting prospective those dogs would not be a fit for me.  
You guys that hunt tell me, what happens to a bird that is dropped when your out hunting wild pheasants or ducks?  
Your right on Hal the second judge did not like my dog after he made her sit on top of a bird for 5 - 10 minutes while the other handler had to walk his dog 30 yards to the bird after several failed attempts to retrieve a bird from my side of the course. My dog could feel the bird moving under her and I was told I could not let her flush it. It was under her front feet and she had to sit there for more than 5 minutes. Not only could you see the grass moving but you could see Brandy's front feet getting pushed up as the bird moved around. After the 5 minute mark Brandy started to shrug her shoulders trying to figure out what she had done wrong. When he released us to flush the bird she jumped at the spot where the bird was and it didn't come up so she had to dig it out of the broom grass. He did not like the flush. Did he want her to back up and take a running start at a bird she was already on top of and had just buried itself thats kind of a stupid? But the first judge could only find fault with her looks.
There were 2 dogs that placed I would never want their genetic traits in my hunting dog one was a butter mouth that could not retrieve actually blinked at the retrieves and the other was a hard mouth bird shredder.


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## Freestone

I'm with Brandy said:


> I find that I have no reason to be heavy handed with my springer when we do non slip retriever work she takes to it quite well and eagerly takes the command. We have a few things to clean up before we run our Finished test in May. Working on blinds, past, through and under the arc of mark. We need three more passes to finish the title.
> Glenmorangie,
> Do you run hunt test or trials with your labs?





Laphroaig said:


> Congrats to all the winners, well done! Thanks go out to the club members, judges and the entire field of entrants.
> 
> My observations: this place is a treasure and is in good hands. The administration/membership of the grounds has reason to be proud of their stewardship as the area is incredible. Fabulous habitat, fences and gates placed for security, good roads, strategically designed courses and a great working partnership with the MDNR all make this place very unique.
> 
> The trial: glad I went. The folks in charge of the event were organized, helpful and fully engaged in the process moving things along timely and methodically. This weren't their first rodeo, and you could tell! The participants were all helpful and respectful of one another and that made it a pleasure as well.
> 
> Recommendation # 1. : if you are a grouse and woodcock hunter using a pointing designated breed; YOU NEED TO TRY THIS OUT. With as many bird hunters that are in this state, there is no reason why the gundog stakes isn't so full that they are trying to figure out how to add more trials. Seriously, the gundog trial is a perfect event for the typical Michigan hunter, and is just like hunting.
> 
> Recommendation#2. : Let the gundog guys use a Garmin. In addition to the reason I mentioned in an earlier post, I have one more reason. My dog Max broke from the line, had a point (unproductive) right off the bat. On he went, way out as normal. His bell stopped. The judge and I went to look for him and or listen for his bell. Nothing. Not a sound. We searched and searched for him. Nothing. Yes, we got lost and turned around. Two hours later we found our way back. My dog, FORTUNATELY, was found after that by a good Samaritan who spotted him. He was COVRED IN MUD. I mean covered. I took him to the lake by Alibi hall to get him cleaned, and a seasoned trailer who saw him suggested (and I agree entirely with him) that he had been stuck in a mud bog and it was a miracle that he freed himself. He explained that it happens, and in fact they had to use heavy equipment to get a horse out once. Upon inspecting my dog, there was no doubt this is what happened. His collars were twisted where he thrashed around. The mud was deep and everywhere. I'm lucky I have him back.
> 
> Finally, I believe the incident was a fluke occurrence, and I would not hesitate to run again. Additionally, I later came to an understanding that I COULD HAVE placed the GARMIN on the dog and handed the hand held device to the judge. I have retread Bobby's post on the matter and he states it clearly. Unfortunately for me, I initially misunderstood that I couldn't have it at all. Regardless, my input would be to allow them; AND allow them to be used to find a dog on point, as a beeper allows you to find a dog on point.



If he does he'll be easy to spot. Just look for the only handler wearing an Astro.


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## gundogguy

Doug, I'm in complete agreement with what happen to you and the dog in this situation. It was unfortunate...bizarre almost the say the least!
I sure would like to knwo who that judging panel was. Only so that when we venture out,if we do, with our Zeta dog not to enter under either of them. Nancy and I are very selective in who we run under. If we donot respect the work they have done we would drive 6 hours in the opposite direction to run under some one we did respect. We have done many times. after all this time we have list of "donot run under". 

And I quote myself here" Doug really enjoys the work he is doing with Brandy, and culture he is doing it in so much so that he really wants to run AKC Retriever test".

Not every one should be trialing the nature of a judges subjective view of the dogs performance is usually hard to understand when people are on the receiving end of the call.. 
Been there done that and bought the farm. For me that does not mean that trialing is a bad game as has been reported just means you have to be diligent in your research.

To some degree that is why testing, shoot to retrieve, Nahvda all got started I'm sure their other venues that try to objectify the scoring or judging and take the subjectivity out of the equation.


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## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Doug, I'm in complete agreement with what happen to you and the dog in this situation. It was unfortunate...bizarre almost the say the least!
> I sure would like to knwo who that judging panel was. Only so that when we venture out,if we do, with our Zeta dog not to enter under either of them. Nancy and I are very selective in who we run under. If we donot respect the work they have done we would drive 6 hours in the opposite direction to run under some one we did respect. We have done many times. after all this time we have list of "donot run under".
> 
> And I quote myself here" Doug really enjoys the work he is doing with Brandy, and culture he is doing it in so much so that he really wants to run AKC Retriever test".
> 
> Not every one should be trialing the nature of a judges subjective view of the dogs performance is usually hard to understand when people are on the receiving end of the call..
> Been there done that and bought the farm. For me that does not mean that trialing is a bad game as has been reported just means you have to be diligent in your research.
> 
> To some degree that is why testing, shoot to retrieve, Nahvda all got started I'm sure their other venues that try to objectify the scoring or judging and take the subjectivity out of the equation.


Hal, 
I have no problem failing for the dog work and I have never complained much about Brandy sitting on that bird for so long during the trial. It did make me a little angry that the guys dog could not retrieve a bird without the handler taking the dog out and standing over it. The thing that got under my skin was the comments about her blaze being too wide, her head shape and her tail length having anything to do with the trial. Like I said he was honest and I am sure other judges would have had the same issues with her looks he did me favor. That same trial a guy had a springer with a full tail and all freckles no solid color and everyone there prejudged that dog saying it was ugliest springer they had ever seen. Looked like a setter.
One other issue with the ESS trials which does not set well with me is Judges judging their own dogs.

I won't run spaniel test under some judges. I was punished at one test because on Saturday a guy complained when he ran after me that my dog must be in heat because his dog was overly interested in where she had sat. So at water they allowed him to run first he still failed the test. :lol:

The next day we ran last I had no problem with that. Brandy was a little wild and when she flushed a bird she nabbed it out of the air by grabbing the legs. The judge took the bird looked it over and failed us because there was skin damage on the legs. Another judge who had judged over us before was in my gallery and told me they felt we were being punished because they felt Brandy was in heat. Even though when they checked her there was no sign of swelling or blood. She started her heat cycle two weeks later. I told them that she would be in heat in a few weeks that if she was in heat it would be early but that she was not always on time. Another participant brought his dog over to her and said if she is in heat his dog would react to it and his dog showed no interest. 
Honestly I would have failed us on that test too not for any damage to the bird but because when I released her to hunt she caught wind of a bird and took off straight down the field. And she continued to punch out. We ran last so the field was full of scent and she was a bit out of control. 
I have always been told that field trials were a way to gauge the ability of the dogs for breeding. But I saw behaviors in some of the dogs that placed that I would never want to see in my hunting dog.

Rod,
I have never had a problem with running these events. There are a few that would rather I not. Extremist on both sides of the isle. Brandy has a good time with it so we will be there.

Any more I am not sure who has less tolerance for our sport PETA people or owners of other breeds.


This all started over test. I don't care who comes to the line just don't ask for a different test.
Hunt them long, hunt them close, hunt them left to right, or in and out. If you don't like the way someone hunts their dog then don't hunt with them. But don't call them names.


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> I sure would like to knwo who that judging panel was. Only so that when we venture out,if we do, with our Zeta dog not to enter under either of them. Nancy and I are very selective in who we run under. If we donot respect the work they have done we would drive 6 hours in the opposite direction to run under some one we did respect. We have done many times. after all this time we have list of "donot run under".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> Hal,
> 
> "Been there, Done that, and Bought the T shirt too"
> 
> Unfortunately, judges are human beings too. If you go to enough trials, you will see it ALL- The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. When we were running our Britts, we found that the same dogs, under the same judges, with similar performances, won more when run by our Pro handlers, than by their amateur owners. Others had the same experiences.
> 
> Unfortunately, it takes a whole lot of time, travel, and $$$ to build a "book" on judges.
> 
> NB
Click to expand...


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Rod,
You know I thought about your comment about getting into the super singles event. I have to say that in all honesty I have felt more accepted by the HRC retriever community than I have at any of the AKC events including hunt test but especially in regards to field trials. Just for what its worth. Duece22 will tell you Brandy had a lot of people rooting for her at the super singles last year.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

I'm with Brandy said:


> Rod,
> You know I thought about your comment about getting into the super singles event. I have to say that in all honesty I have felt more accepted by the HRC retriever community than I have at any of the AKC events including hunt test but especially in regards to field trials. Just for what its worth. Duece22 will tell you Brandy had a lot of people rooting for her at the super singles last year.


Doug,

I hope you realize my comment was made "tongue in cheek, mostly" because I have seen far worse than that at various FTs over many years. Both sanctioned by the AKC/AFTCA/NASTRA or the backyard variety. So many judges judge who's running the dog, rather than on the dog's performance.

Politics is present in many activities in life, field trials are not excepted. 

I do hope you can get in because Brandy can give a lot of them duck dogs a run for their money!  Good Luck!

Rod


----------



## gundogguy

Unfortunately, it takes a whole lot of time, travel, and $$$ to build a "book" on judges.

NB[/QUOTE]

+1 on that!! 50-60 placements 4 AFC's 1 FC on 9 different dogs Two trucks with 300,000 miles on in From 78 to 98
I know full well what the "book" costs and is worth.:lol:


----------



## gundogguy

http://www.windriftspaniels.com/

Paul Mcgagh will be conducting a training weekend in May.

*2013 Paul McGagh Spaniel Training Clinic* 
Paul will be at Windrift Farm on May 18 and 19, 2013 for a "hands-on" clinic for spaniel handlers and their dogs. Click here to download the new registration form for our 2013 Training Clinic!

*Photo Gallery* 
Paul was at Windrift Farm on June 15,16 and 17 of 2012 for a clinic for spaniel handlers and their dogs.See Photo Gallery Here.






Windrift English Springer Spaniels


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## Gavan

of AKC Field Trials is to select the best dogs of a particular day to perpetuate the best qualities of the breed. Highly trained dogs that don't make any mistakes or exhibit performance related faults are of great value to their owners but may not win the trial that day. If they lack pace, style, conformation, etc. they are not viewed as the best way to perpetuate the highest qualities of the breed.
Another dog with great pace, style, nose, intensity, marking and retrieving ability may win in spite of being on the edge of control in the eyes of some. Unlike a test trials should be judged to find the best dog not the one that makes the least mistakes.
This can be hard to take when the handler puts countless hours into training and works hard to mitigate their dogs faults. I know because I have been there. There are dogs out there who are very consistent and impeccably trained that will never win a field trial unless they find a perfect storm of everyone bombing out and some luck in terms of getting the opportunity to take a long runner or long retrieves when superior dogs don't get that opportunity.
Everyone can succeed in a test. Only one winner in a trial and 3 other placing dogs. You have to win to be a champion. Champions are the primary breeding stock for the perpetuation of the breed.


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Doug, I'm in complete agreement with what happen to you and the dog in this situation. It was unfortunate...bizarre almost the say the least!
> I sure would like to knwo who that judging panel was. Only so that when we venture out,if we do, with our Zeta dog not to enter under either of them. Nancy and I are very selective in who we run under. If we donot respect the work they have done we would drive 6 hours in the opposite direction to run under some one we did respect. We have done many times. after all this time we have list of "donot run under".
> 
> And I quote myself here" Doug really enjoys the work he is doing with Brandy, and culture he is doing it in so much so that he really wants to run AKC Retriever test".
> 
> Not every one should be trialing the nature of a judges subjective view of the dogs performance is usually hard to understand when people are on the receiving end of the call..
> Been there done that and bought the farm. For me that does not mean that trialing is a bad game as has been reported just means you have to be diligent in your research.
> 
> To some degree that is why testing, shoot to retrieve, Nahvda all got started I'm sure their other venues that try to objectify the scoring or judging and take the subjectivity out of the equation.


I would say most people who have tried a dog game venue will have had a disagreement on a judges subjectivity. Which is why thick skin is must. I know Doug and Brandy had a bad experience, a dog in field trial should never be judged on looks, keep those comments for the show ring. However, we must keep the focus that the judges are volunteers and are making a sacrifice of their time to give back to the sport or their love of dogs and the outdoors. 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I would say most people who have tried a dog game venue will have had a disagreement on a judges subjectivity. Which is why thick skin is must. I know Doug and Brandy had a bad experience, a dog in field trial should never be judged on looks, keep those comments for the show ring. However, we must keep the focus that the judges are volunteers and are making a sacrifice of their time to give back to the sport or their love of dogs and the outdoors.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


+1 Mike, Clubs need to vet the selection of individuals based on merit and not on what expenses are at stake in bringing judges in. If means raising entry fees so be it.


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## michgundog

Southern Michigan Springer Spaniel Training Club will be holding a Hunt Test May 18th and 19th at Colonial Farms in
Chelsea, MI.

Our daily entry limit is now 35 and our entry fee is $65. The last few
years we have had a waiting list to get into this test. We encourage
people to enter early to guarantee themselves a spot in the event.

For details go to:

http://www.smsstc.org/hunttest/

Premiums and Entry forms are available in PDF format. Closing is May 4th.


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## Birddog8487

Sue gave us 6 fat and healthy puppies last night. 3 black males, 1 black female, 2 brown and white females. Mom and pups doing great.


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## yooperguy

Congrats!

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## michgundog

Good looking litter, congratulations!


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## JAM

Birddog8487 said:


> Sue gave us 6 fat and healthy puppies last night. 3 black males, 1 black female, 2 brown and white females. Mom and pups doing great.


Congrats! Hope to see more pics as the pups grow.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Birddog8487 said:


> Sue gave us 6 fat and healthy puppies last night. 3 black males, 1 black female, 2 brown and white females. Mom and pups doing great.


Good News!! 

Thats a nice sized litter-Momma can take very good care of six. Be sure to post plenty of pics as the puppers grow up. VG timing as well as they will be old enough to be introduced to some field work this fall.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

I was just about ready to ask if any one knew who might have pups coming or on the ground..That's great!!! 

As Natty says keep those pics and video's rolling... You never know when one us might have a great training home open up and some will be looking for their next super spaniel training project..

Man have fun!


----------



## gundogguy

Dauber, When spaniel training, and you are working on bird work do you use a gun that has inertia triggers or mechanical triggers...depending on which i might give you a different perspective of the training exercise..
Hie-on!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Dauber, When spaniel training, and you are working on bird work do you use a gun that has inertia triggers or mechanical triggers...depending on which i might give you a different perspective of the training exercise..
> Hie-on!


I only use mechanical triggers. That way I can use snap caps.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I only use mechanical triggers. That way I can use snap caps.



That"s swell Doug. Snap caps those are the fake shells you put in the gun for storage? Or are you referring to a non lethal load that goes bang with no shot being fired ,simple a noise maker or "popper load"?


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I only use mechanical triggers. That way I can use snap caps.



That"s swell Doug. Snap caps those are the fake shells you put in the gun for storage? Or are you referring to a non lethal load that goes bang with no shot being fired ,simple a noise maker or "popper load"?

When I know we are on the same page page I'll explain why I asked about mechanical or inertia triggers.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Snap caps do have some noise and with a young pup they may be a good start. Later you can advance to a primer load. I use primer loads all the time in both upland and retriever training.


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Snap caps do have some noise and with a young pup they may be a good start. Later you can advance to a primer load. *I use primer loads all the time in both upland and retriever training.*


As do I. the reason for the question about mech Or inertia triggers has to do with specific exercise while doing bird work and proofing steadiness to W&S
Mech triggers allow for the use of a primer load in the first barrel and live load in the second barrel. 
dog flushes dog hups 1st barrel miss(primer) 2nd barrel kill. It will proof that the dog is not breakiing on the first shot and it is good timing device to ride birds out for a sporting retrieve.
With the inertia triggered guns I had shared a 3/4 ounce recipe from the Hodgdon site, which i use. which all be it more expensive than a primer has very little recoil. That load works well for Grouse and wood cock as well.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> http://www.windriftspaniels.com/
> 
> Paul Mcgagh will be conducting a training weekend in May.
> 
> *2013 Paul McGagh Spaniel Training Clinic*
> Paul will be at Windrift Farm on May 18 and 19, 2013 for a "hands-on" clinic for spaniel handlers and their dogs. Click here to download the new registration form for our 2013 Training Clinic!
> 
> *Photo Gallery*
> Paul was at Windrift Farm on June 15,16 and 17 of 2012 for a clinic for spaniel handlers and their dogs.See Photo Gallery Here.
> 
> 
> Windrift English Springer Spaniels


 
Karen and I are signed up. Zac is our only cocker that hasn't had strong Glenco influences. We are looking forward to a spring weekend in PA.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Karen and I are signed up. Zac is our only cocker that hasn't had strong Glenco influences. We are looking forward to a spring weekend in PA.


+1

Sounds like a great weekend, Steve. Paul McGagh is one of the best dog trainers I've ever seen. I call him "The Spaniel Whisperer". He never raises his voice. 

He won the NCC last fall and the ESS NC the year before. Not sure any other handler has accomplished winning both of the National Championships before?? We were very fortunate to spend an afternoon with Paul and Vicky in the field training when we picked up our Rocky at the Glencoe Ranch. The education was "Priceless".

NB

BTW GLAD to see you back at TSC II after a little vacation.


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> +1
> 
> Sounds like a great weekend, Steve. Paul McGagh is one of the best dog trainers I've ever seen. I call him "The Spaniel Whisperer". He never raises his voice.
> 
> He won the NCC last fall and the ESS NC the year before. Not sure any other handler has accomplished winning both of the National Championships before?? We were very fortunate to spend an afternoon with Paul and Vicky in the field training when we picked up our Rocky at the Glencoe Ranch. The education was "Priceless".
> 
> NB
> 
> BTW GLAD to see you back at TSC II after a little vacation.


Yes Paul is a very interesting fella and I am sure it will be entertaining as well as informative. Plus it will be very nice to meet Christine and hear about all she does for RGS and getting youth involved with hunting. And maybe get a peak at her guns.


----------



## dauber

I have loved the Paul French video of the 2013 cocker Championship. The conditions were tough with more snow than they are used to in the UK! The little dogs were fantasic, oftne burrowing under the snow and cover flushing out game. They didn't have too many marks, and with the conditions the handling was very tough since thye had to stand on the game to get scent. 

There was a lot of woodcock shot along with quite a few hare. Those hare are HUGE, I swear some are as big as the dogs retrieving them. All the game held quite tight, as would be expected in the conditions. I especially loved watching handler Joe Shotton (the oldest handler in the trial at 89) and his dog Hidie (the oldest dog in the trial at 8). They earned a diploma finishing the trial! The winner Griffin had a nice first run of 50 minutes, 6 retrieves and a couple of nice finds. There was a nice eye wipe, one dog lost to pegging, one dog lost to not getting into the cover good enough, plus the few who moved a mite too far after the flush or failed on a retrieve...that hit the ground anyway.

All in all very well worth the money to me.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Karen and I are signed up. Zac is our only cocker that hasn't had strong Glenco influences. We are looking forward to a spring weekend in PA.



Welcome back dauber. This event sounds like something that I'd like to attend some day. I'll have to live vicariously through you guys until then. 


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Karen and I are signed up. Zac is our only cocker that hasn't had strong Glenco influences. We are looking forward to a spring weekend in PA.


I really envy you and wish I could join you. I hope you have a great time and learn lots. Then you can share all your new tricks with us poor trainers that had to stay home.


----------



## JAM

Welcome back, Dauber. It was starting to get a little too quiet around here.


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## michgundog

JAM said:


> Welcome back, Dauber. It was starting to get a little too quiet around here.


Yes, welcome back! 


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## gundogguy

It get real busy here during lambing season!


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## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> BTW GLAD to see you back at TSC II after a little vacation.





yooperguy2003 said:


> Welcome back dauber. This event sounds like something that I'd like to attend some day. I'll have to live vicariously through you guys until then.
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





JAM said:


> Welcome back, Dauber. It was starting to get a little too quiet around here.





michgundog said:


> Yes, welcome back!
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks for the welcome backs. 

Now if we could welcome some "spring type" weather. We had gotten down to 19", but after the last couple days it is 24" again. Plus the crust is getting weak so early morning walks are getting tough. Yesterday I was following some wolf tracks around my place and was dropping thru well over my knees. Did hear sandhill cranes and saw a couple robins over the last couple days. So come on spring!

Wonder if I could borrow that springer...some of my friends are starting lambing.


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## gundogguy

A couple of posts back we were talking about the difficulties in vid's this puppy stake is not bad as far as production values go, 2009 season.
Handler is Mark Hairfield, Running under judge Mhari Peschal (Hat) and unknown co-judge. This is a 11 month old puppie.

3 flushes, and a pick-up, one retrieve 2 birds could not be shot for safety
reasons.
Puppies stakes requires steadiness to wing and shot, retrieve on command, the puppie stake is not braced. Pups may run in the puppy stake till they are 2 yrs of age.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> A couple of posts back we were talking about the difficulties in vid's this puppy stake is not bad as far as production values go, 2009 season.
> Handler is Mark Hairfield, Running under judge Mhari Peschal (Hat) and unknown co-judge. This is a 11 month old puppie.
> 
> 3 flushes, and a pick-up, one retrieve 2 birds could not be shot for safety
> reasons.
> Puppies stakes requires steadiness to wing and shot, retrieve on command, the puppie stake is not braced. Pups may run in the puppy stake till they are 2 yrs of age.


Good look at a spaniel puppy stake. Nice looking 11 month old pup too. Thanks for posting.


----------



## METRO1

here is my dandrew druid pups from shelly. my creative 13 year old son came up with the idea for the picture. i thought you all would like it.4 weeks old in pic and 6 weeks old today 3rd.out with badgercourt druid in my springers and in with danderw druid in my cockers,i have a real nice pic of my old springers, maybe mike or my son can post on here for me , just found it a last month,of katie ,maize,and remmy.


----------



## gundogguy

METRO1 said:


> View attachment 35402
> 
> 
> here is my dandrew druid pups from shelly. my creative 13 year old son came up with the idea for the picture. i thought you all would like it.4 weeks old in pic and 6 weeks old today 3rd.out with badgercourt druid in my springers and in with danderw druid in my cockers,i have a real nice pic of my old springers, maybe mike or my son can post on here for me , just found it a last month,of katie ,maize,and remmy.


Good looking pups with their trophy's


----------



## dauber

METRO1 said:


> View attachment 35402
> 
> 
> here is my dandrew druid pups from shelly. my creative 13 year old son came up with the idea for the picture. i thought you all would like it.4 weeks old in pic and 6 weeks old today 3rd.out with badgercourt druid in my springers and in with danderw druid in my cockers,i have a real nice pic of my old springers, maybe mike or my son can post on here for me , just found it a last month,of katie ,maize,and remmy.


Nice picture! They look similar to my druid pup!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

METRO1 said:


> View attachment 35402
> 
> 
> here is my dandrew druid pups from shelly. my creative 13 year old son came up with the idea for the picture. i thought you all would like it.4 weeks old in pic and 6 weeks old today 3rd.out with badgercourt druid in my springers and in with danderw druid in my cockers,i have a real nice pic of my old springers, maybe mike or my son can post on here for me , just found it a last month,of katie ,maize,and remmy.


Good looking puppers, Metro. Thanks for posting.

Dandrew Druid made a big and very positive impact on ECS pedigrees on this side of the pond, as well as in England. A Fountainhead sire of the first rank. Got him in both of my guys pedigrees as well.

NB


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## gundogguy

1st or 2nd series 1/2 of the parallel course, find, flush, steady,mark, retrieve. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em4-bfuzXeY"]ESS Field trial - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## JAM

Nice videos as usual, Hal.

Great looking pups, Metro1! They do look a lot like Steve's Zac.


----------



## METRO1

My thirteen year old set them up for that pic,,i have no clue how he got them to be that still together to get pic off, they are busy bodies that for sure


----------



## METRO1

Natty,rite on about danderw druid, produced 259 reg,litters and 1367 puppies,ian openshaw said not only his best cocker but in his opinion, best to have lived,im glad to have him in bloodline up front with other greats,like championship winners parkbreck perfection and jasper of parkbreck,loaded with great dogs,im sure we have more than a few of same , dauber too.


----------



## yooperguy

METRO1 said:


> Natty,rite on about danderw druid, produced 259 reg,litters and 1367 puppies,ian openshaw said not only his best cocker but in his opinion, best to have lived,im glad to have him in bloodline up front with other greats,like championship winners parkbreck perfection and jasper of parkbreck,loaded with great dogs,im sure we have more than a few of same , dauber too.


Congrats! Neat photo and great looking pups. Very interesting to hear about the lineage of your, and other's, field spaniels. 

I'm very new to spaniel training and have just learned about field trials this year. I even got my first Openshaw DVD this year (thank you dauber!) I have a new ESS pup this year and she has a strong show champion lineage. The breeder that I got her from hunts with their show line of dogs. So it is my hope that I can learn about training spaniels and to have an effective hunting dog. 

I've been told and have read that a pup from an show line might just be a good choice for a first time (or 2nd in my case) spaniel owner who aspires to learn about being a trainer and upland hunter. I hope it is a working recipe for me as my daughter and I embark on this new journey. 

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## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Congrats! Neat photo and great looking pups. Very interesting to hear about the lineage of your, and other's, field spaniels.
> 
> I'm very new to spaniel training and have just learned about field trials this year. I even got my first Openshaw DVD this year (thank you dauber!) I have a new ESS pup this year and she has a strong show champion lineage. The breeder that I got her from hunts with their show line of dogs. So it is my hope that I can learn about training spaniels and to have an effective hunting dog.
> 
> I've been told and have read that a pup from an show line might just be a good choice for a first time (or 2nd in my case) spaniel owner who aspires to learn about being a trainer and upland hunter. I hope it is a working recipe for me as my daughter and I embark on this new journey.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yup you'll be fine and Belle will be fine. As Hal says...you train the dog you have. Even some of the best bred dogs still need work on their weak areas and you try to "highlight" their strenghts. My last Chessy was impeccably bred with Dual Champion Decks as her sire and a field trial placer Dam. She was very athletic but still had weak areas we constantly worked on. 

We will make an upland birder out of Belle, you and your daughter YG! Of course yous will join the ranks of the "poop covered chukar" trained dogs, but I'm betting we will get yous up to the levels my "poop covered chukar" (pcc) trained dogs are. During my week long ban I took the time to calculate out the flush rates for my dogs last season. My "pcc" trained boys had 3.2 grouse/ hour flushed and during the woodcock season they had 4.3 flushes/hour. Not bad considering I love woodcock hunting with my 28ga so we don't concientrate in top grouse covers for part of the season. I have no doubt in a couple of years yous will be getting above average flush rates and have a dog to be proud of. 

Keep working on the sit and come, and get this snow melting eh!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> 1st or 2nd series 1/2 of the parallel course, find, flush, steady,mark, retrieve.


Nice video of half of a brace. It sure is fun watching them spaniels do their work.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Thanks for sharing your flush rates Steve, it's interesting to learn what others are moving.

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## JackieTreeHorn

Early in this thread, I got the feeling that at least one MS member doesn't think highly of those shooting pen raised pheasants, and I felt compelled to post. Here's what we do. Pheasant farms in the off season for fun and nothing more. A proper spaniel with a proper pedigree, running along side my poodle/cocker mix. Both had a blast and both bring me joy and hopes for next grouse season. Guys like that may commence whatever trash talking may be necessary, etc. In my eyes these dogs are the best a man could ask for. Why? Because they're my partners, that's why. I say regardless of breed, style, or experience level, we all need to keep things in perspective.


----------



## gundogguy

JackieTreeHorn said:


> Early in this thread, I got the feeling that at least one MS member doesn't think highly of those shooting pen raised pheasants, and I felt compelled to post. Here's what we do. Pheasant farms in the off season for fun and nothing more. A proper spaniel with a proper pedigree, running along side my poodle/cocker mix. Both had a blast and both bring me joy and hopes for next grouse season. Guys like that may commence whatever trash talking may be necessary, etc. In my eyes these dogs are the best a man could ask for. Why? Because they're my partners, that's why. I say regardless of breed, style, or experience level, we all need to keep things in perspective.


Kudos to you JTH and your good looking crew..
I managed and or consulted for 4 different shooting preserve for some 20 years. and the whole challenge of the experience was to market fun and entertainment 9 months out the year, for the hunting sportsman and his dogs.
I have never seen unhappy faces when they took a picture like the one you have there. Those memories are just as real as if you went out west..and saved considerable time and expense and you were able to pick a day weather wise that was enjoy for you and yours.
Personally,I think and know, for 99.8% of the dogs out there they did not know the difference. They were just energized and stimulated to be out with their boss..Thanks for sharing your thoughts and pics


----------



## dauber

JackieTreeHorn said:


> Early in this thread, I got the feeling that at least one MS member doesn't think highly of those shooting pen raised pheasants, and I felt compelled to post. Here's what we do. Pheasant farms in the off season for fun and nothing more. A proper spaniel with a proper pedigree, running along side my poodle/cocker mix. Both had a blast and both bring me joy and hopes for next grouse season. Guys like that may commence whatever trash talking may be necessary, etc. In my eyes these dogs are the best a man could ask for. Why? Because they're my partners, that's why. I say regardless of breed, style, or experience level, we all need to keep things in perspective.


 
 Yes every day that the dogs and I get to hunt birds is a BIG GRINNING day for me, and the dogs. They as well as I are just as cranked for chukar, pheasant and pigeons that we train on, and any preseve hunts we can get in as we all are for the 3 months of hunting season. Thanks for you view JTH!


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Yup you'll be fine and Belle will be fine. As Hal says...you train the dog you have. Even some of the best bred dogs still need work on their weak areas and you try to "highlight" their strenghts. My last Chessy was impeccably bred with Dual Champion Decks as her sire and a field trial placer Dam. She was very athletic but still had weak areas we constantly worked on.
> 
> We will make an upland birder out of Belle, you and your daughter YG! Of course yous will join the ranks of the "poop covered chukar" trained dogs, but I'm betting we will get yous up to the levels my "poop covered chukar" (pcc) trained dogs are. During my week long ban I took the time to calculate out the flush rates for my dogs last season. My "pcc" trained boys had 3.2 grouse/ hour flushed and during the woodcock season they had 4.3 flushes/hour. Not bad considering I love woodcock hunting with my 28ga so we don't concientrate in top grouse covers for part of the season. I have no doubt in a couple of years yous will be getting above average flush rates and have a dog to be proud of.
> 
> Keep working on the sit and come, and get this snow melting eh!


Thanks for the help and encouragement dauber. I look forward to the "pcc" training this year! 

I had Belle enthusiastically chasing a tennis ball last evening. She even brought most of them back to me. . 

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## JAM

JackieTreeHorn said:


> Early in this thread, I got the feeling that at least one MS member doesn't think highly of those shooting pen raised pheasants, and I felt compelled to post. Here's what we do. Pheasant farms in the off season for fun and nothing more. A proper spaniel with a proper pedigree, running along side my poodle/cocker mix. Both had a blast and both bring me joy and hopes for next grouse season. Guys like that may commence whatever trash talking may be necessary, etc. In my eyes these dogs are the best a man could ask for. Why? Because they're my partners, that's why. I say regardless of breed, style, or experience level, we all need to keep things in perspective.


Good looking pups and nice birds. Looks like you all had a great time. Good for you! 

I agree... my dogs couldn't care less where the birds were born. We just love to hunt - woods and fields.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

JackieTreeHorn said:


> Early in this thread, I got the feeling that at least one MS member doesn't think highly of those shooting pen raised pheasants, and I felt compelled to post. Here's what we do. Pheasant farms in the off season for fun and nothing more. A proper spaniel with a proper pedigree, running along side my poodle/cocker mix. Both had a blast and both bring me joy and hopes for next grouse season. Guys like that may commence whatever trash talking may be necessary, etc. In my eyes these dogs are the best a man could ask for. Why? Because they're my partners, that's why. I say regardless of breed, style, or experience level, we all need to keep things in perspective.


Thanks for posting your take on things, JT. Its a breath of fresh air. And you are "dead on" IMHO. Right in the X ring.

A Good Looking pair of feather fetchers you have there too.

THANKS for keeping it real.

NB


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## N M Mechanical

JackieTreeHorn said:


> Early in this thread, I got the feeling that at least one MS member doesn't think highly of those shooting pen raised pheasants, and I felt compelled to post. Here's what we do. Pheasant farms in the off season for fun and nothing more. A proper spaniel with a proper pedigree, running along side my poodle/cocker mix. Both had a blast and both bring me joy and hopes for next grouse season. Guys like that may commence whatever trash talking may be necessary, etc. In my eyes these dogs are the best a man could ask for. Why? Because they're my partners, that's why. I say regardless of breed, style, or experience level, we all need to keep things in perspective.


 

Was that at Wings & Rings?


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## JackieTreeHorn

You got it, wings and rings. Nice folks there.


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## gundogguy

JackieTreeHorn said:


> You got it, wings and rings. Nice folks there.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



+1 on the JTH. Rated best cover in the shooting preserve industry.
Thanks again for sharing your experience.


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## michgundog

JackieTreeHorn said:


> Early in this thread, I got the feeling that at least one MS member doesn't think highly of those shooting pen raised pheasants, and I felt compelled to post. Here's what we do. Pheasant farms in the off season for fun and nothing more. A proper spaniel with a proper pedigree, running along side my poodle/cocker mix. Both had a blast and both bring me joy and hopes for next grouse season. Guys like that may commence whatever trash talking may be necessary, etc. In my eyes these dogs are the best a man could ask for. Why? Because they're my partners, that's why. I say regardless of breed, style, or experience level, we all need to keep things in perspective.


As long as your getting your dog out and enjoying the outdoors that's all that matters. Good looking springers, thanks for sharing. 


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## dauber

Fresh off the presses...the ECSCA FTC (English Cocker Spaniel Club of America - Field Trial Committee) voted to keep the cocker trials as is and not approach the AKC to be allowed in ESS trials. The reason for the proposal was the small number of trials in the west and south.

Also they voted to have the 2014 nationals at Tyrone, PA on October 29th - November 1st, 2014. It will be held at the Hillendale Hunt Club.


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Fresh off the presses...the ECSCA FTC (English Cocker Spaniel Club of America - Field Trial Committee) voted to keep the cocker trials as is and not approach the AKC to be allowed in ESS trials. The reason for the proposal was the small number of trials in the west and south.
> 
> Also they voted to have the 2014 nationals at Tyrone, PA on October 29th - November 1st, 2014. It will be held at the Hillendale Hunt Club.


Good news, Dauber. That makes a lot of sense.

So... You might be headed for PA in October, hey?


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## dauber

JAM said:


> Good news, Dauber. That makes a lot of sense.
> 
> So... You might be headed for PA in October, hey?


 
Haha:lol::lol:...who knows what 2014 will bring. We are going to the 2013 Nationals in ND this year though.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Fresh off the presses...the ECSCA FTC (English Cocker Spaniel Club of America - Field Trial Committee) voted to keep the cocker trials as is and not approach the AKC to be allowed in ESS trials. The reason for the proposal was the small number of trials in the west and south.
> 
> Also they voted to have the 2014 nationals at Tyrone, PA on October 29th - November 1st, 2014. It will be held at the Hillendale Hunt Club.


THANKS for the Headsup, Steve. I like the news. Good call on keeping the trials seperate, nothing in it for the ECS IMHO. "IF" you wanted to run against Springers, you could always compete in the Canadian trials. McGagh, Ness and the Dartts have all done well up there.

+1 on moving the Nationals around too. I imagine we'll see them here in the next few.

NB


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## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> +1 on moving the Nationals around too. I imagine we'll see them here in the next few.
> NB


We'll have to see, sounds like no Michigan cocker trial this year and I haven't seen Wisconsin (Fox Valley) schedule a fall date yet either.


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## JAM

dauber said:


> We'll have to see, sounds like no Michigan cocker trial this year and I haven't seen Wisconsin (Fox Valley) schedule a fall date yet either.


Just F.Y.I... Fox Valley's springer trial is scheduled for Oct. 2&3 - Wed. & Thurs. In the past they would hold their ECS trial the weekend following that.


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## michgundog

michgundog said:


> Southern Michigan Springer Spaniel Training Club will be holding a Hunt Test May 18th and 19th at Colonial Farms in
> Chelsea, MI.
> 
> Our daily entry limit is now 35 and our entry fee is $65. The last few
> years we have had a waiting list to get into this test. We encourage
> people to enter early to guarantee themselves a spot in the event.
> 
> For details go to:
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/hunttest/
> 
> Premiums and Entry forms are available in PDF format. Closing is May 4th.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


FYI


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## gundogguy

mine,Gary's, Daubers, Mike, Jeff, Yooperguy, hope i did not forget any one, if I did give me a shout out.
i thought i would post a few clips from the Ohio Valley puppy stake that ran yesterday 4/06 in Bucyrus Ohio
All of the pups competing in this event were just like the pups belonging to forum members just a few short months ago. 
These pups ranged from 13 months to 17 months of age.
In this stake bird finding , strength of flush, steadiness,marking and retrieving is under critical judgement.
Lots of stuff wnt on in this trial as the videos point out. Could probable make a thread out it alone
I will not make a statement concerning the use of chukars in this stake. Though because i share these videos does not mean i endorse the use of this bird for trial or test.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> mine,Gary's, Daubers, Mike, Jeff, Yooperguy, hope i did not forget any one, if I did give me a shout out.
> i thought i would post a few clips from the Ohio Valley puppy stake that ran yesterday 4/06 in Bucyrus Ohio
> All of the pups competing in this event were just like the pups belonging to forum members just a few short months ago.
> These pups ranged from 13 months to 17 months of age.
> In this stake bird finding , strength of flush, steadiness,marking and retrieving is under critical judgement.
> Lots of stuff wnt on in this trial as the videos point out. Could probable make a thread out it alone
> I will not make a statement concerning the use of chukars in this stake. Though because i share these videos does not mean i endorse the use of this bird for trial or test.


Yes there were all types of things going on there. That last pup had a nice flush for sure. It is nice seeing these youngsters out giving it a go, seeing where they are at in their training and be able to plan out the next phase of training. Thanks for posting Hal.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Just F.Y.I... Fox Valley's springer trial is scheduled for Oct. 2&3 - Wed. & Thurs. In the past they would hold their ECS trial the weekend following that.


That's when I assume they are having their trial, hope so because we can pull the camper right up from there to "Camp Dallasdog" for a week if the timing is right.


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## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> mine,Gary's, Daubers, Mike, Jeff, Yooperguy, hope i did not forget any one, if I did give me a shout out.
> i thought i would post a few clips from the Ohio Valley puppy stake that ran yesterday 4/06 in Bucyrus Ohio
> All of the pups competing in this event were just like the pups belonging to forum members just a few short months ago.
> These pups ranged from 13 months to 17 months of age.
> In this stake bird finding , strength of flush, steadiness,marking and retrieving is under critical judgement.
> Lots of stuff wnt on in this trial as the videos point out. Could probable make a thread out it alone
> I will not make a statement concerning the use of chukars in this stake. Though because i share these videos does not mean i endorse the use of this bird for trial or test.
> 
> steady pup1 - YouTube
> 
> oops passed bird - YouTube
> 
> unsteady1 - YouTube
> 
> Steady pup 3 - YouTube


Thank you for posting these videos. They were fun to watch. It looks like it was a fun time in the field too. 

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## michgundog

Thanks for posting Hal. reminds how much more my pup has to go...He's a long way off from anything like that. I will say his retrieves are coming along and he responds real nice to the whistle. 



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## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> Thanks for posting Hal. reminds how much more my pup has to go...He's a long way off from anything like that. I will say his retrieves are coming along and he responds real nice to the whistle.
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yep... No doubt my pup has a way to go before doing that stuff. My pup will hup nicely. And my acme 210.5 is like magic for the "here" command. There's something about that whistle that she "must" heed. Belle will chase anything I throw now. And she'll bring it back most of the time too! . I'm still working on getting some pics of the retrieves. She zigs when I zag with the camera. 

I like the age that these pup in the trial are. Makes me encouraged that I can get there too. Fun stuff!



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## JAM

Great videos, Hal. Puppy stakes are my favorite to watch.


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## dauber

With all the puppy stuff thought I'd give a Zac update. He is just about 7 months old and continuing on wiht the same things he has been doing wiht just slightly more control being applied. The picture I keep in my mind is like turning a screw into a board...take your time so you don't split the wood or snap off the screw, go ahead and take a break the screw won't come out on it's own, and when you do turn it just a little at a time. Patience isn't my strong suit, I am the kind of guy who would rather pound a nail into that board with as few of strokes as possible, but I bend over more nails than I get in the wood clean.

We have continued the place board work to teach hup, and stay seated in one place (cockers are notorious butt scooters), begining line steadyness, and staying for longer periods of time. We introduced a second place board, and send him on a retrieve from one board and come back to the other. We have worked on transitioning from leaving from the board and coming back to me on the ground, and turn that around to send him off the ground and come back to the board (this worked well during his little phase of wanting to go where ever he wanted and the pickup). We have done loads of work on the hup command, once he got it down cold in the house by voice we moved outside, once he got that down cold we intro'd the whistle. Now that he has that down well we have moved to the training field (which is a 30 acre field of white pavement right now) and he is getting pretty good there too and hupping at a distance of 5 to 10 yards. He is coming very well even at 50 yards+ distances with up to moderate distractions by both voice and whistle.

I have been very pleased with his natural hunt and quartering. We mostly have taken walks with very little wind, I let him enjoy "hunting" on his own but keep him within 40-50 yards with a "hey..hey" and turn myself to the direction I want him to take. He has caught on well and is often now turning as I change direction.

I belive we are at the point of introducing some basic field work quartering to turn up the distraction a little more. He is also getting close to doing some bird work off the place board too. 

That's what Zac has been up to the last couple months. No video since I was pretty hard on the AquaVu during icefishing season and it has quite a few broke parts. As Yooperguy says it is tough to get camera pics since they are so quick. Hope others are having fun with their pups. Thanks Hal and JAM for your help along the way.


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## JAM

WOW, Dauber! Great work by you and Zac. I can't wait to get more pics of him. Next time we meet, I'll try to remember the video camera, too.

Keep up the good work!


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## Gavan

scheduled for North Adams, MI, September 13-15. Two Opens and an Amateur.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Great videos, Hal. Puppy stakes are my favorite to watch.


Here you go Jam, Christina Garon's and her Ryder pup real nice work!








dauber said:


> With all the puppy stuff thought I'd give a Zac update. He is just about 7 months old and continuing on wiht the same things he has been doing wiht just slightly more control being applied. The picture I keep in my mind is like turning a screw into a board...take your time so you don't split the wood or snap off the screw, go ahead and take a break the screw won't come out on it's own, and when you do turn it just a little at a time. Patience isn't my strong suit, I am the kind of guy who would rather pound a nail into that board with as few of strokes as possible, but I bend over more nails than I get in the wood clean.
> 
> We have continued the place board work to teach hup, and stay seated in one place (cockers are notorious butt scooters), begining line steadyness, and staying for longer periods of time. We introduced a second place board, and send him on a retrieve from one board and come back to the other. We have worked on transitioning from leaving from the board and coming back to me on the ground, and turn that around to send him off the ground and come back to the board (this worked well dduring his little phase of wanting to go where ever he wanted and the pickup). We have done loads of work on the hup command, once he got it down cold in the house by voice we moved outside, once he got that down cold we intro'd the whistle. Now that he has that down well we have moved to the training field (which is a 30 acre field of white pavement right now) and he is getting pretty good there too and hupping at a distance of 5 to 10 yards. He is coming very well even at 50 yards+ distances with up to moderate distractions by both voice and whistle.
> 
> I have been very pleased with his natural hunt and quartering. We mostly have taken walks with very little wind, I let him enjoy "hunting" on his own but keep him within 40-50 yards with a "hey..hey" and turn myself to the direction I want him to take. He has caught on well and is often now turning as I change direction.
> 
> I belive we are at the point of introducing some basic field work quartering to turn up the distraction a little more. He is also getting close to doing some bird work off the place board too.
> 
> That's what Zac has been up to the last couple months. No video since I was pretty hard on the AquaVu during icefishing season and it has quite a few broke parts. As Yooperguy says it is tough to get camera pics since they are so quick. Hope others are having fun with their pups. Thanks Hal and JAM for your help along the way.


You are on the right track with the Zacster, when your spring breaks you will not believe how fast it will all come together.. You have laid a good solid foundation for the Zac dog.



Gavan said:


> scheduled for North Adams, MI, September 13-15. Two Opens and an Amateur.


There you go Dauber 3 days of trialing instead of 2 No complaints I trust.
Thanks Gavan was not quite sure if that was a go!


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## Gavan

escapades. Had a very good trial at New Jersey and finished tied for 5th place. In other words I finished, got nothing, and was wondering what the hell happened. Had a little follow through on the flush on the last bird in the 3rd but the find and flush were sensational. Oh well.

Fast forward to Ohio Valley this past weekend where we tore it up in the 1st. Two nice finds in an area where dogs were passing birds left and right followed by two very nice marked retrieves and perfect deliveries. Second series was in the crossing downwind in a part of the course where the birds were running off. One ran off and the other flew off. Had to use LOTS of whistle to cover the ground since there was little cover. So we started a new course and turned into the upwind cross. Made a big find on a running bird into the wind and trapped it. Good thing since dad didn't believe Gavan could track a bird in these conditions and was 50 yards away when he made contact. Second find was a bird that was dug into a furrow in the field that I had to whistle him back to (not good). Then he followed through a lot on the flush before making a nice marked retrieve. No 3rd series on that day. 

We're done for the spring and have lots of work to do on the follow through since he will not do it in training or hunting.


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## gundogguy

are just that way for experienced dogs. Not making excuses it is just a fact from what I have been through over years.
Hunt in the fall, trial in the fall, it is part of God's plan!
Thanks for sharing your spring escapades with the group!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Here you go Jam, Christina Garon's and her Ryder pup real nice work!
> 
> You are on the right track with the Zacster, when your spring breaks you will not believe how fast it will all come together.. You have laid a good solid foundation for the Zac dog.
> 
> There you go Dauber 3 days of trialing instead of 2 No complaints I trust.
> Thanks Gavan was not quite sure if that was a go!


 
Thanks for the video, Ryder had a real nice run. 

Here's to hoping spring breaks...walked out behind the pole barn this morning and when I got close to the trees kept falling thru to my waist. Was a little more of a workout than I was looking for.

Thanks Gavan, hadn't heard that was a go either for sure yet. That will fit into our plans real well, get back for Tilden Valley and then camp and hunt the rest of the fall


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> escapades. Had a very good trial at New Jersey and finished tied for 5th place. In other words I finished, got nothing, and was wondering what the hell happened. Had a little follow through on the flush on the last bird in the 3rd but the find and flush were sensational. Oh well.
> 
> Fast forward to Ohio Valley this past weekend where we tore it up in the 1st. Two nice finds in an area where dogs were passing birds left and right followed by two very nice marked retrieves and perfect deliveries. Second series was in the crossing downwind in a part of the course where the birds were running off. One ran off and the other flew off. Had to use LOTS of whistle to cover the ground since there was little cover. So we started a new course and turned into the upwind cross. Made a big find on a running bird into the wind and trapped it. Good thing since dad didn't believe Gavan could track a bird in these conditions and was 50 yards away when he made contact. Second find was a bird that was dug into a furrow in the field that I had to whistle him back to (not good). Then he followed through a lot on the flush before making a nice marked retrieve. No 3rd series on that day.
> 
> We're done for the spring and have lots of work to do on the follow through since he will not do it in training or hunting.


Thanks for the sharing the "blow by blow". Good luck with the follow through work and get em this fall!


----------



## JAM

Everyday I look forward to another Spaniel Corner II post. Thanks so much for making my day, Hal, Dauber and Gavan. Great posts.
Looking forward to more.


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Thanks for the pics.
> 
> Lifts the spirits seeing him chasing birds with his pal the Doxy. We are still in Winters grip here with more rain/freezing rain/ sleet and snow coming this weekend!!:rant:
> 
> I am ready for some woods rambles, this time wo/snowshoes.
> 
> NB


Ah the rites of Spring. have a great supply of birds and enough ambition to fix a couple of motleys with a YO YO running style problemo. Couple of North/South upland types that will be fun to fix.
Wet miserable day but birds flew well enough to get my lesson across.. Camera was a no go so the gun did the job!


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## CDN_Cocker

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CDN_Cocker

LOL. Could u give me more details? You can PM me his name if that's better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Ah the rites of Spring. have a great supply of birds and enough ambition to fix a couple of motleys with a YO YO running style problemo. Couple of North/South upland types that will be fun to fix.
> Wet miserable day but birds flew well enough to get my lesson across.. Camera was a no go so the gun did the job!


:lol::lol::lol: Have fun!! It is actually fun to see the light turn on when they get that they are hunting for the gun, not themselves. 

Spring will come here too one day....


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Looked for Hup! (Spencer's book) and the prices on Amazon are ridiculous! On the American site, you can get used copies for $12.53 but they want 40 dollars to ship to Canada! On the Canadian amazon, used copies start at $37!!!! What is the deal with that?! I wouldn't mind but I've already bought Urban Gun Dogs and Roebuck's book and neither really laid it out how I was hoping. I don't really want to spend another $40-$50 on yet another book with the same, lack-of-detailed, information. How frustrating!


Yeah that's really expensive. Do you have a Barnes and Noble? They may have a copy or they can order one for you. Did you try gundogsonline.com? I'm not sure if their prices will be better....


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## Birddog8487

dauber said:


> Don't be afraid to contact Jim K. with questions.
> 
> 
> This is one of my favorite books "Working Springers and Cockers" http://www.mailscotgundogs.co.uk/ for spaniel training, keep in mind this is a British book and things are a little different here.
> 
> Have fun.


 I believe it was Jim who gave me an autographed copy of "Working Springers and Cockers". It's a great book. You might also consider sending your pup back to Jim next year for summer camp.


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## Birddog8487

CDN_Cocker said:


> Oh don't worry I bug Jim daily - he's great. He also recommended that book by Mike Smith. Jake is out of his dog Ammo, he did well in puppy stakes last year. It is a linebreeding to another dog Jim bred, Lisa. There is a ton of FCs in his pedigrees so I'm hoping I can get him to the next level! Should be a fun ride!


You made a great choice getting a pup out of "Ammo". I absolutely cant take my eyes off that dog when I see him. I have a female from Jims place that just whelped a litter from another young up-and-comer in his string, "Gator". I have a high regard for Jim and his dogs. Best of luck with your pup.


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## gundogguy

Birddog8487 said:


> You made a great choice getting a pup out of "Ammo". I absolutely cant take my eyes off that dog when I see him. I have a female from Jims place that just whelped a litter from another young up-and-comer in his string, "Gator". I have a high regard for Jim and his dogs. Best of luck with your pup.


+1 Jim K has got it going. He is a great puppy starter and handler.
Stick close to your source they can help smooth a lot of the bumps out on your journey of developing your pup.


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## CDN_Cocker

When I went to get him he had a couple out training, Jake's parents Ammo and Lisa, and another young female named Macey. They were amazing. Ammo was a blur the whole time, he never stops moving! Never seen a dog move so fast. When I pulled up to the training field and got out of the car I couldn't see Jim as he was behind some trees a ways out, but Macey came running and greeted me with a quail in her mouth. I'll tell ya, being my first experience with bird dogs (and cockers other than those ugly american show ones) I was immediately hook, line and sinker! LOL. He also had his springer Brutus there who was amazing, so attentive and intensely focused on Jim. 

I'm so excited to get going with this pup! I feel bad for Jim because I'm constantly emailing him daily about different things and he is always great to help but probably thinks I need to cool it hahahaha. His advice to me is to just let Jake be a pup right now. And aside from what I'm doing (a few retrieves here and there, hup and here) not to do much and just "enjoy my baby" lol. So hard though as I'm always seeing videos and pics of pups the same age as Jake doing amazing things! Over the past week or 2 I have indeed taken Jim's advice though and calmed down on trying to train too much. Just spending lots of time with my little man and getting him into lots of different terrains and situations.

I do have a question though. Jake is SUPER hard-headed and stubborn at times and I feel like I'm always on him, telling him no, or having to (gently) grab him by the scruff/jowls so he listens. Disciplining seems to do absolutely nothing to him, and most times just saying "no" isn't enough. Everything I read though says you need to be careful because cockers are sensitive, so since I am constantly giving him heck for doing things he shouldn't I'm worried I'm going to break his spirit. However, I also can't let him terrorize my household lol. Am I doing okay or do I need to ease up on him? He doesn't sulk or cower or anything like that. You give him trouble and sometimes I'll even put him right down to the ground and as soon as I let him up he's bouncing around again and all over me. I just want to know how you guys deal with them as pups?


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## Birddog8487

CDN_Cocker said:


> I do have a question though. Jake is SUPER hard-headed and stubborn at times and I feel like I'm always on him, telling him no, or having to (gently) grab him by the scruff/jowls so he listens. Disciplining seems to do absolutely nothing to him, and most times just saying "no" isn't enough. Everything I read though says you need to be careful because cockers are sensitive, so since I am constantly giving him heck for doing things he shouldn't I'm worried I'm going to break his spirit. However, I also can't let him terrorize my household lol. Am I doing okay or do I need to ease up on him? He doesn't sulk or cower or anything like that. You give him trouble and sometimes I'll even put him right down to the ground and as soon as I let him up he's bouncing around again and all over me. I just want to know how you guys deal with them as pups?


I have to tell you I got a little chuckle out of this. I had the advantage of owning quite a few gundogs before I bought Sue. Even had a few pointy dogs place in trials when the good men with the score cards saw fit. I still was amazed at how much piss and vinegar can be packed in such a small package. This picture is Sue with my wife's mastiff 5 years ago. She took over the household then and still runs it today despite being about 1/6 the weight of our gentle giant. A sense of humor helps. Only move as fast as your knowledge base allows, too slow is probably better than too fast. Have fun. The puppy phase is too soon gone, at least for me.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

LOL I can't wait to get past the puppy phase. Never liked them. I'd own a ton of dogs, but I haven't got it in me when it comes to puppies. They're evil.


----------



## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> When I went to get him he had a couple out training, Jake's parents Ammo and Lisa, and another young female named Macey. They were amazing. Ammo was a blur the whole time, he never stops moving! Never seen a dog move so fast. When I pulled up to the training field and got out of the car I couldn't see Jim as he was behind some trees a ways out, but Macey came running and greeted me with a quail in her mouth. I'll tell ya, being my first experience with bird dogs (and cockers other than those ugly american show ones) I was immediately hook, line and sinker! LOL. He also had his springer Brutus there who was amazing, so attentive and intensely focused on Jim.
> 
> I'm so excited to get going with this pup! I feel bad for Jim because I'm constantly emailing him daily about different things and he is always great to help but probably thinks I need to cool it hahahaha. His advice to me is to just let Jake be a pup right now. And aside from what I'm doing (a few retrieves here and there, hup and here) not to do much and just "enjoy my baby" lol. So hard though as I'm always seeing videos and pics of pups the same age as Jake doing amazing things! Over the past week or 2 I have indeed taken Jim's advice though and calmed down on trying to train too much. Just spending lots of time with my little man and getting him into lots of different terrains and situations.
> 
> I do have a question though. Jake is SUPER hard-headed and stubborn at times and I feel like I'm always on him, telling him no, or having to (gently) grab him by the scruff/jowls so he listens. Disciplining seems to do absolutely nothing to him, and most times just saying "no" isn't enough. Everything I read though says you need to be careful because cockers are sensitive, so since I am constantly giving him heck for doing things he shouldn't I'm worried I'm going to break his spirit. However, I also can't let him terrorize my household lol. Am I doing okay or do I need to ease up on him? He doesn't sulk or cower or anything like that. You give him trouble and sometimes I'll even put him right down to the ground and as soon as I let him up he's bouncing around again and all over me. I just want to know how you guys deal with them as pups?


Saw Macey at the Michigan Trial last fall and she is a really nice one!

First off relax, believe me in 12 years or so you will wish you had taken your time and enjoyed every minute you get with Jake, then you will be saying that it all went way to fast. 

I "feel your pain" is the phrase I'll steal... Zac wasn't know as "Zac attack" for nothing











Luckily for us we had the 2 adult cockers and Smoke loved to roughhouse with Zac.

We had the limits that he couldn't chew anything like the kitchen table or computer wires and he would get a sharp no and get physically removed from the area, if he went back same thing again but we would give him a chew toy and play for a few minutes...his attention span is short so that usually takes care of it. If not he was put into his kennel and given a little time to himself. We fed Zac in his kennel for the first few months then teaching him to sit and to kennel before getting his food in the kennel so he learned to be very relaxed in his kennel.

Keep listening to Jim, he knows the parents, how they trained up and will have by far the best insight of what you are going thru.


----------



## dauber

Birddog8487 said:


> I have to tell you I got a little chuckle out of this. I had the advantage of owning quite a few gundogs before I bought Sue. Even had a few pointy dogs place in trials when the good men with the score cards saw fit. I still was amazed at how much piss and vinegar can be packed in such a small package. This picture is Sue with my wife's mastiff 5 years ago. She took over the household then and still runs it today despite being about 1/6 the weight of our gentle giant. A sense of humor helps. Only move as fast as your knowledge base allows, too slow is probably better than too fast. Have fun. The puppy phase is too soon gone, at least for me.


 
Great picture! 

Here's my crew at a little more relaxed moment. 











Zac is 7 months old and we are still waiting to start real field work...with the foot of snow last night it will be a few more weeks. Zac has calmed down a lot and amazingly some of the things I thought he would never get he knows well. BD has some very good advice above too.


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## Birddog8487

Zac was known as Zac attack. Sue we call Tsunami. Are you seeing the pattern here CDN Cocker? You notice nobody nick-named their pup sleepy, lazy, or snuggles:lol:. Like I said you definitely need a sense of humor. Great pics dauber.


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## CDN_Cocker

Zac is beautiful! Jake has just started finding his speed the last couple days. Up until that, he's very low key except for the constant rough housing with Lily our doxie. I have been waiting for the frantic hyper pup stage lol. When do cockers go through it? How long does it last?


----------



## dauber

Birddog8487 said:


> Zac was known as Zac attack. Sue we call Tsunami. Are you seeing the pattern here CDN Cocker? You notice nobody nick-named their pup sleepy, lazy, or snuggles:lol:. Like I said you definitely need a sense of humor. Great pics dauber.


Tsunami Sue:yikes::lol::lol:! I love that one. We can relate.



CDN_Cocker said:


> Zac is beautiful! Jake has just started finding his speed the last couple days. Up until that, he's very low key except for the constant rough housing with Lily our doxie. I have been waiting for the frantic hyper pup stage lol. When do cockers go through it? How long does it last?


Ohhh when the ears get pinned back and off to the races!! Yes Zac and 3 year old Smoke do that every day. Both get flying thru the house...bounce off the back of the couch without hitting the seat and back to the floor. We had to put a stop to Zac running full tilt up to the top of that rocking chair the dogs have taken over and leaping off the top of the back...almost flipping the chair. How long does it last?? Our 10 year old is pretty much over it:evil:.


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## Gavan

nfm


----------



## yooperguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> LOL I can't wait to get past the puppy phase. Never liked them. I'd own a ton of dogs, but I haven't got it in me when it comes to puppies. They're evil.


My pup Belle is crazy energetic, and hard headed too. Short attention span and plays RUFF with our German Shepherd! My wife calls them the naughty kids. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## CDN_Cocker

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CDN_Cocker

Yeah Jake and Lily never stop wrestling and biting each other. It gets annoying lol. He is very hard headed
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> As a consumer is there benefit in acquiring a spaniel puppie or started gun dog? Spaniel puppie being completely untrained. Or a started spaniel that is retrieving shot birds say 6-10 months old.
> 
> If you are the breeder is it better to sell puppies or started dogs?


I like messing around with puppies and getting them going on the right path. For many folks, however, buying a started dog just makes much more sense. That dog is mostly grown, so you can see what he/she will be, and you should be able to hunt over that dog right away.

We have bred a few litters of Britts. We always sold out on these litters because we had several pups reserved before the breeding. And I always kept at least one pup from our own litters.

NB


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## Gavan

dogs if he/she is capable of giving the pups a good solid start and foundation. Well started dogs become effective adults and that is good advertising for the breeder. Also, the breeder gets feedback on the breeding program by working with several of the offspring.

Buyers who are new should probably buy a well started pup to have a better chance of getting an effective hunting dog when the pup becomes an adult. It's easier to learn to maintain trained abilities than it is to train them into the dog without the experience of having done so.

Having said that what usually happens is the breeder sells all the pups, since he/she is probably in it for the "money". The new buyer buys the pup and screws it up and then expects a pro to fix it, or worse, doesn't know it's screwed up and continues to let it run amok and screws up everybody's hunt within shouting distance. (-:


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> As a consumer is there benefit in acquiring a spaniel puppie or started gun dog? Spaniel puppie being completely untrained. Or a started spaniel that is retrieving shot birds say 6-10 months old.
> 
> If you are the breeder is it better to sell puppies or started dogs?


This is the question many should ask themselves before getting a dog/pup. I have bought many pups of various breeds over the years. Being a rank amateur all had faults that I either had to explain away as (I really wanted a dog that does such) or accept the fact that I couldn't get the dog to the level I was planning on with the resources I had at that time. Then "Bingo" after we lost the key upland dog in our rotation, we started looking for a well started or finished dog. We ended up with a 3 year old pretty much finished cocker, we got him in Feb. and was a real stud in his first year and we knew he would be because we could see him work. This really fit us at the time with me spending the week downstate working and having very little time to train. We did this again a few years latter with a 3 year old cocker we got in late September. Again by his second trip out in the grouse woods he was fantastic, even though he'd never been on a grouse or woodcock, but knowing you are getting a dog with at least a decent nose and well trained you sure can have a blast hunting over them. The 3rd dog was a 9 month old started dog we got in August. This guy needed more control work but we knew his nose and quartering and it was a good deal for us since he has a fantastic nose and has easily turned into a bird finder and fetcher. 

All three of these purchases worked very well for us at the time and situation we were in. Now being retired or semi-retired a pup fit into our plans and we are back to developing a young charge, this time even if he isn't ready to hunt this fall we are in good dog shape to not use him.

Again no right or wrong answers, just what gets you the results you are looking for and how much of a chance are you willing to take on the development. The one thing we haven't done and is a popular thing for some trailers I know is to get a pup, start it out for 9 months to a year then send to a pro to finish off. 

Not being a breeder I'll leave that part of Hal's question to them.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

I was leaning towards a started dog as I have never trained a gun dog and am worried about messing it up. However, the other half wouldn`t go for getting another dog unless we got a puppy. I think now that we`re dealing with the little terror and she remembers how brutal puppies are, she wishes we would`ve got a started dog hahaha. Both ways have pros and cons... with a puppy you get to have all those memories of bringing home a little ball of fur and such but you don`t really know how he`ll turn out. A started dog you miss that puppy time, but you know pretty much what you`re getting and therefore can get exactly what you want.


----------



## uppower

gundogguy said:


> You do have a talent for asking the ambiguous question! ( which dog is the best grouse dog?)
> QUOTE]
> 
> Remember it's only ambiguous to those of you that know there isn't a right answer. Just trying to get all the information I can to pick the right pup when the time comes. Thanks for answering even the dumb question guys! Plus sometimes it's fun to throw out a question just to see the guys argue!


----------



## dauber

uppower said:


> gundogguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do have a talent for asking the ambiguous question! ( which dog is the best grouse dog?)
> QUOTE]
> 
> It's funny I just threw that out there to get people going...though after asking that question I started doubting what kind of pup I wanted. It seemed that noone backed the spaniels....everyone went with the pointers. Made me feel that if I was going dual purpose I might be better off going lab as the lab perform as well as the spaniels in the upland field and are a little more established duck dogs...? Thanks for the input guys its helping.
> 
> 
> 
> Lab might be best if your worried about who brags the most on an internet board to decide what breed is best for you. Go watch some hunt and decide what breed you want to live with for the next decade. You gotta be tough to own a spaniel cause most everyone will tell you they are a novelty, their second favorite breed, one they will get when they are old and over the hill, and much more. Then if you do defend spaniels you get belittled. Much easier getting what the loudest say. If your mostly a duck hunter get a lab. They can chase ya up a few grouse too when you limit out on ducks in the mornings.
> 
> For the record I will say that labs do not preform as well as spaniels in the uplands, just as spaniels do not preform as well as labs for duck dogs.
> 
> There are a bunch of spaniel haters on the list here and some of us don't waste our time with them. If you want to know spaniel stuff read this thread and the "locked" Spaniel corner thread. I assume you can learn all you need about upland labs on the "coverdog retriever thread" and about setters on the famous setter thread.
Click to expand...


----------



## Duece22

dauber said:


> uppower said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the record I will say that labs do not preform as well as spaniels in the uplands, just as spaniels do not preform as well as labs for duck dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion or fact?
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Future Spaniel Owner
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Click to expand...


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## uppower

Dauber your too quick on the draw! haha You caught me, I posted that as a quick reply and thought about it and edited it. Can't get away with anything around here! I think I'm still with you on the spaniel breed I just had a moment of uncertainty. Thanks again for all the help and advice I'm sure I'll need more it looks like I'm on the waiting list for next spring for my Boykin!


----------



## uppower

Dang another reply on the post I tried to edit....it's all opinion in my post. I am just asking questions to learn and I worded that one wrong. That's why I edited it as soon as I read it to myself. Hopefully one of the guys with some experience on more than one breed will weigh in for you.


----------



## dauber

uppower said:


> Dang another reply on the post I tried to edit....it's all opinion in my post. I am just asking questions to learn and I worded that one wrong. That's why I edited it as soon as I read it to myself. Hopefully one of the guys with some experience on more than one breed will weigh in for you.


No problem, just toughening ya up for owning a boykin. Gotta get going to our RGS meeting.


----------



## kek25

dauber said:


> uppower said:
> 
> 
> 
> . . .and about setters on the famous setter thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Where neutrality reigns surpreme -- kind of like Canada. :lol:
Click to expand...


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## CDN_Cocker

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Hey take it easy on the Canada comments hahahaha. Lab people are the worst - there's no dog like a lab... Allegedly. Get a spaniel! They do it all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michgundog

uppower said:


> Dauber your too quick on the draw! haha You caught me, I posted that as a quick reply and thought about it and edited it. Can't get away with anything around here! I think I'm still with you on the spaniel breed I just had a moment of uncertainty. Thanks again for all the help and advice I'm sure I'll need more it looks like I'm on the waiting list for next spring for my Boykin!


Where are you getting your Boykin from? Don't send a deposit until your certain. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## uppower

I was looking at J&L Boykins. I know I'm trying to do as much research as I can to be positive.


----------



## gundogguy

uppower said:


> I was looking at J&L Boykins. I know I'm trying to do as much research as I can to be positive.



Sounds liike you are doing your research and that is good to a point.

Now here is what I expected from potential pup buyers or started dog buyers, when I was selling my blood. I expected prospects to come and train with me either at group training or one on one. During those sessions the prospective buyers was expected to participate in training. I would provide a dogs, either the actual dog or very close relatives of the dog for them to work. And depending on how well they demonstrated intuitive dog skills and/or the ability to accept instruction on how to handle and develop a relationship with the dogs. after 3 of these sessions over a period of about 8 weeks a decision would be made if they should own one of our field bred springer's..
Now if the Boykin breeder does not have some similar service and you cannot participate in a number of their training sessions I would really look at some body else's dog's and program. From their standpoint I would think they would want to see you,as well on that basis and see if you are good fit for their pup..


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## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> dauber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion or fact?
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Future Spaniel Owner
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
> 
> 
> 
> :yikes: show me! NO and i do not care to go watch or hunt with unsteady linear course running retrievers (AKA Yo-Yo style) Now is it you that wants to push'/pull grouse with herding dogs?
> :yikes: I have seen that style of dog for some 30 years now. I'm asked to fix Yo-Yo dogs on a daily basis
Click to expand...


----------



## Basil Hayden's

gundogguy said:


> Sounds liike you are doing your research and that is good to a point.
> 
> Now here is what I expected from potential pup buyers or started dog buyers, when I was selling my blood. I expected prospects to come and train with me either at group training or one on one. During those sessions the prospective buyers was expected to participate in training. I would provide a dogs, either the actual dog or very close relatives of the dog for them to work. And depending on how well they demonstrated intuitive dog skills and/or the ability to accept instruction on how to handle and develop a relationship with the dogs. after 3 of these sessions over a period of about 8 weeks a decision would be made if they should own one of our field bred springer's..
> Now if the Boykin breeder does not have some similar service and you cannot participate in a number of their training sessions I would really look at some body else's dog's and program. From their standpoint I would think they would want to see you,as well on that basis and see if you are good fit for their pup..


Are you shytting me? I would no more put up with that kind of a rigamarole from a breeder to save my life. Am I reading that correctly? 8 weeks for you to evaluate my suitability as an owner of your breeding? You're telling this guy and the population of prospective puppy owners at large to shy away from breeders UNLESS they have a similar obsessive control freak boot camp where they are anointed worthy....or not?? That has to be the most outrageous thing I have ever read on this forum. This goes WAY, WAY beyond the "NORMAL" breeder screening process. Are you selling pups, or running a cult? I'm amazed.


----------



## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> Duece22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> :yikes: show me! NO and i do not care to go watch or hunt with unsteady linear course running retrievers (AKA Yo-Yo style) Now is it you that wants to push'/pull grouse with herding dogs?
> :yikes: I have seen that style of dog for some 30 years now. I'm asked to fix Yo-Yo dogs on a daily basis
> 
> 
> 
> The proof is in the pudding. Putting WILD birds in front of the gun day in and day out across varied conditions over the course of a season(s). Have you seen my dogs run? You seem to "think" you know all about there pattern and style.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Future Spaniel Owner
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Click to expand...


----------



## Steelheadfred

dauber said:


> uppower said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the record I will say that labs do not preform as well as spaniels in the uplands, just as spaniels do not preform as well as labs for duck dogs.
> 
> There are a bunch of spaniel haters on the list here and some of us don't waste our time with them. .
> 
> 
> 
> Steve, my bet is still on the table, NM Mechanical, Duece22, Steelheadfred, v. Dauber, Mrs. Dauber, Natty Bumpo or another Spanielite. A thousand bucks, your covers or mine, proceeds to RGS chapter of winners choice.
> 
> You sure waste a lot of time worrying sorry writing about the lab guys.
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Click to expand...


----------



## michgundog

uppower said:


> I was looking at J&L Boykins. I know I'm trying to do as much research as I can to be positive.


Good idea to do the research and if you get an opportunity see the parents work. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> dauber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve, my bet is still on the table, NM Mechanical, Duece22, Steelheadfred, v. Dauber, Mrs. Dauber, Natty Bumpo or another Spanielite. A thousand bucks, your covers or mine, proceeds to RGS chapter of winners choice.
> 
> You sure waste a lot of time worrying sorry writing about the lab guys.
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fritz,
> I already spend "thousands" of bucks and huge amounts of hours on RGS. I spend much of my time during hunting season trying to teach younger or newer grouse hunters how to go about it, I have spent much of my other time doing the same by writing a pdf file on how to find grouse hunting areas. I freely give away my hunting areas to others. I don't have time to spend it with guys that are more worried about "killing" or herding than they are hunting.
> 
> You sure waste a lot of time reading the spaniel thread since they are such substandard dogs in your eyes. The discussion was about "breeds" not individual dogs. What would you think the top dog would be on the "Spaniel Thread"??
Click to expand...


----------



## gundogguy

Basil Hayden's said:


> Are you shytting me? I would no more put up with that kind of a rigamarole from a breeder to save my life. Am I reading that correctly? 8 weeks for you to evaluate my suitability as an owner of your breeding? You're telling this guy and the population of prospective puppy owners at large to shy away from breeders UNLESS they have a similar obsessive control freak boot camp where they are anointed worthy....or not?? That has to be the most outrageous thing I have ever read on this forum. This goes WAY, WAY beyond the "NORMAL" breeder screening process. Are you selling pups, or running a cult? I'm amazed.



I might have over stated that concept of service after the sale a little.
As a small breeder i only have had 12 litters over the last 30 years, my last breeding was 5 years ago. Actually I place very few little pups in homes, mostly sold well started or finished shooting dogs. So during the process of helping folks get up to speed as a handler on trained dogs there was quite a bit of handler education going on.


----------



## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> gundogguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The proof is in the pudding. Putting WILD birds in front of the gun day in and day out across varied conditions over the course of a season(s). Have you seen my dogs run? You seem to "think" you know all about there pattern and style.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> *Future Spaniel Owner
> *
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen video though usually it isjust birds popping up gun swinging type stuff doesn't really focus much on the dog work!
> Trust me i have been scouring the WWW for dog work that would resemble flushing dogs working cover like a pointing dog, not much out there. as i have stated before yous guys should be putting to together demos, developing a venue to test standards and branching out across the retriever world as what you are doing with theis style of dogs. I'm sure you will turn heads with in the ranks
> 
> *Good for you! *on becoming a future spaniel owner
> 
> 
> 
> Steelheadfred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dauber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve, my bet is still on the table, NM Mechanical, Duece22, Steelheadfred, v. Dauber, Mrs. Dauber, Natty Bumpo or another Spanielite. A thousand bucks, your covers or mine, proceeds to RGS chapter of winners choice.
> 
> You sure waste a lot of time worrying sorry writing about the lab guys.
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well would you rather just pick pistols or swords for this duel.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> Duece22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen video though usually it isjust birds popping up gun swinging type stuff doesn't really focus much on the dog work!
> Trust me i have been scouring the WWW for dog work that would resemble flushing dogs working cover like a pointing dog, not much out there. as i have stated before yous guys should be putting to together demos, developing a venue to test standards and branching out across the retriever world as what you are doing with theis style of dogs. I'm sure you will turn heads with in the ranks
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what is your basis for belittling mine and or other labs that you have never seen work? Or the "famous setters"? I don't belittle spaniels, I enjoy them and will own one someday cause i feel they fit a unique niche in the upland game. I just ask questions that some might want the answers to. The correct answer is not always spaniel for flushing, labs for ducks and setters for pointing. There are a lot of absolutes thrown around the spaniel corner with no factual basis to support them. Some dog buyers might want to hear more about the whole package of a dog, the real truth, the holes that every dog and every breed have. The strengths AND the weaknesses.
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Click to expand...


----------



## dauber

Duece22 said:


> gundogguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is your basis for belittling mine and or other labs that you have never seen work? Or the "famous setters"? I don't belittle spaniels, I enjoy them and will own one someday cause i feel they fit a unique niche in the upland game. I just ask questions that some might want the answers to. The correct answer is *not always spaniel for flushing*, labs for ducks and setters for pointing. There are a lot of absolutes thrown around the spaniel corner with no factual basis to support them. Some dog buyers might want to hear more about the whole package of a dog, the real truth, the holes that every dog and every breed have. The strengths *AND the weaknesses*.
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...Once again UPPower ask a very general question about "breeds"; again "general about breeds". The answer he got from most of us on the SCII are generally speaking of breeds. I don't believe his question was what is the weakness of your beloved spaniels or what is the weakness of your individual dog? Why would you who has not owned and trained then hunted over a spaniel be the one to come on SCII and tell us all what the weakness are? I have not seen a post where you have highlighted the "weaknesses of your labs??
> 
> Why are you and your Bro constantly "belittling" spaniel quartering, a system that has been developed through spaniel breeding for centuries and used as a highly effective means of putting various game in the bag for longer? I'm still waiting to see some training tips and help for lab/retriever owners on the CDR thread other than "let em roll", and take them out in the field on 500 grouse and see if they got it?
> 
> Yes this is the "Spaniel Corner" and by golly us spaniel folks do love our spaniels and we use them for much more than "filling a unique niche". I'll be looking on the CR thread to see the list of weaknesses of CRD's? In my answer to UPPower I did state a weakness of spaniels..."Labs are better duck dogs".
> 
> As Gundogguy says why don't yous guys go out on the road and put your method on display, write a book, let it be reviewed and used by many in the public to see how it holds up for numbers of people and dogs.
Click to expand...


----------



## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> gundogguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is your basis for belittling mine and or other labs that you have never seen work? Or the "famous setters"? I don't belittle spaniels, I enjoy them and will own one someday cause i feel they fit a unique niche in the upland game. I just ask questions that some might want the answers to. The correct answer is not always spaniel for flushing, labs for ducks and setters for pointing. There are a lot of absolutes thrown around the spaniel corner with no factual basis to support them. Some dog buyers might want to hear more about the whole package of a dog, the real truth, the holes that every dog and every breed have. The strengths AND the weaknesses.
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
> 
> 
> 
> AHHHHH Geeeez Edith! Do you want a little cheese with that whine!
> 
> Put your program on the road as I and Dauber have said. At the very least make a video of the CDR dogs in action and I guarantee Dauber and I and the Spaniel Nation with critique it fairly and objectively.
> 
> 
> 
> dauber said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Duece22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...Once again UPPower ask a very general question about "breeds"; again "general about breeds". The answer he got from most of us on the SCII are generally speaking of breeds. I don't believe his question was what is the weakness of your beloved spaniels or what is the weakness of your individual dog? Why would you who has not owned and trained then hunted over a spaniel be the one to come on SCII and tell us all what the weakness are? I have not seen a post where you have highlighted the "weaknesses of your labs??
> 
> Why are you and your Bro constantly "belittling" spaniel quartering, a system that has been developed through spaniel breeding for centuries and used as a highly effective means of putting various game in the bag for longer? I'm still waiting to see some training tips and help for lab/retriever owners on the CDR thread other than "let em roll", and take them out in the field on 500 grouse and see if they got it?
> 
> Yes this is the "Spaniel Corner" and by golly us spaniel folks do love our spaniels and we use them for much more than "filling a unique niche". I'll be looking on the CR thread to see the list of weaknesses of CRD's? In my answer to UPPower I did state a weakness of spaniels..."Labs are better duck dogs".
> 
> As Gundogguy says why don't yous guys go out on the road and put your method on display, write a book, let it be reviewed and used by many in the public to see how it holds up for numbers of people and dogs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> +1!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Duece22

dauber said:


> Duece22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...Once again UPPower ask a very general question about "breeds"; again "general about breeds". The answer he got from most of us on the SCII are generally speaking of breeds. I don't believe his question was what is the weakness of your beloved spaniels or what is the weakness of your individual dog? Why would you who has not owned and trained then hunted over a spaniel be the one to come on SCII and tell us all what the weakness are? I have not seen a post where you have highlighted the "weaknesses of your labs??
> 
> Why are you and your Bro constantly "belittling" spaniel quartering, a system that has been developed through spaniel breeding for centuries and used as a highly effective means of putting various game in the bag for longer? I'm still waiting to see some training tips and help for lab/retriever owners on the CDR thread other than "let em roll", and take them out in the field on 500 grouse and see if they got it?
> 
> Yes this is the "Spaniel Corner" and by golly us spaniel folks do love our spaniels and we use them for much more than "filling a unique niche". I'll be looking on the CR thread to see the list of weaknesses of CRD's? In my answer to UPPower I did state a weakness of spaniels..."Labs are better duck dogs".
> 
> As Gundogguy says why don't yous guys go out on the road and put your method on display, write a book, let it be reviewed and used by many in the public to see how it holds up for numbers of people and dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve, When did I ever speak of the weakness' of a spaniel? When have I belittled your dogs or spaniels in general for that matter? As I said I ask questions. You made the statement "For the record I will say that labs do not perform as well as spaniels in the uplands I was simply asking whether this was a fact or opinion based statement?
> 
> The CDR is a legend created by the Spaniel Corner. It is what you and Hal believe is our labs and the way we run them but with no proof to support your theories. Since then the CDR thread just like the Setter thread were started they have been a parody of the spaniel corner. If people want answers to questions about Labs then ask them, I am sure they would get answers, some good, some bad, some positive, some negative.
Click to expand...


----------



## uppower

Sorry guys! I truly didn't mean to start a war on the spaniel thread. I was just ignorant on the breed and was learning from those in the know. Any reference to labs came from the fact I've hunted over them for 30 yrs. Love those dogs but every man at the duck camp has one. So plenty of labs at every hunt, I'm trying something different. Each guy in here had a time when you got your first lab, setter or spaniel and I'm sure no one ever was disappointed. It's a dog and your gonna love it for whatever it turns out to be. To be honest as long as its a good dog and well socialized ill do my best to train and it'll find its niche. Ill keep the generalizations to PM's from know on. Thanks for all the honest advice and put the swords and pistols away will ya.


----------



## dauber

Let's get back to some more spaniel training things.

7 month old Zac will be heading out in a few minutes to work on a little face wind quartering. This is quite natural for Zac but I want to reinforce what genetics has given him and begin working on the "2 toots" to turn. He is doing quite well with his retrieving in the house, and yard. We will do this training in very light cover today to try to minimize other distractions so that he can concentrate on the specific tasks we are working on.

Some of this is repeated from the last SC but for some of the newer members;

I have attached a drawing from Mike Smith's book to help get an idea of what we are talking about in a quartering pattern, notice it isn't a windshield wiper pattern that the haters will call it, it is quartering, the dog isn't covering the same ground over and over. The dog is taking a "bite" of new ground each time. Also note this is the pattern without other objectives, almost all spaniels I've seen learn what objectives hold birds very fast.

You have to remember that spaniels arent setters or pointers with high head covering lots of ground beyond gun range with a job description of locating, and then pointing and holding the game until you get into gun range. Spaniels need to be in gun range, cover the ground in the beat, and flush all birds in the in the beat. Because they arent covering lots of ground they need to be very thorough. Therefore as you can be seen in Smiths drawing the dog is covering the ground well and with a face wind should be able to smell between casts. This is the basis for all other wind conditions that they will work on latter in training.

The other things we are continuing to work on with the Zackster is the hup at a distance and as always "come" with continuing increases in distractions for him.


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Let's get back to some more spaniel training things.
> 
> 7 month old Zac will be heading out in a few minutes to work on a little face wind quartering. This is quite natural for Zac but I want to reinforce what genetics has given him and begin working on the "2 toots" to turn. He is doing quite well with his retrieving in the house, and yard. We will do this training in very light cover today to try to minimize other distractions so that he can concentrate on the specific tasks we are working on.
> 
> Some of this is repeated from the last SC but for some of the newer members;
> 
> I have attached a drawing from Mike Smith's book to help get an idea of what we are talking about in a quartering pattern, notice it isn't a windshield wiper pattern that the haters will call it, it is quartering, the dog isn't covering the same ground over and over. The dog is taking a "bite" of new ground each time. Also note this is the pattern without other objectives, almost all spaniels I've seen learn what objectives hold birds very fast.
> 
> You have to remember that spaniels arent setters or pointers with high head covering lots of ground beyond gun range with a job description of locating, and then pointing and holding the game until you get into gun range. Spaniels need to be in gun range, cover the ground in the beat, and flush all birds in the in the beat. Because they arent covering lots of ground they need to be very thorough. Therefore as you can be seen in Smiths drawing the dog is covering the ground well and with a face wind should be able to smell between casts. This is the basis for all other wind conditions that they will work on latter in training.
> 
> The other things we are continuing to work on with the Zackster is the hup at a distance and as always "come" with continuing increases in distractions for him.


Thanks for the refresher. Look more like my lawnmower pattern than windshield wiper pattern to me. 

It was fun meeting your dogs last night. My Belle spent some "quality" time scenting them on me when I got home. :lol:


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Thanks for the refresher. Look more like my lawnmower pattern than windshield wiper pattern to me.
> 
> It was fun meeting your dogs last night. My Belle spent some "quality" time scenting them on me when I got home. :lol:


It won't be long now YG, there are a couple bare spots in the yard and the little training field behind the pole barn has some dead grass showing thru. Belle will get to meet the motley crew pretty soon now.


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## Rysalka

Peace please, labs are okay with me.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Let's get back to some more spaniel training things.
> 
> 7 month old Zac will be heading out in a few minutes to work on a little face wind quartering. This is quite natural for Zac but I want to reinforce what genetics has given him and begin working on the "2 toots" to turn. He is doing quite well with his retrieving in the house, and yard. We will do this training in very light cover today to try to minimize other distractions so that he can concentrate on the specific tasks we are working on.
> 
> Some of this is repeated from the last SC but for some of the newer members;
> 
> I have attached a drawing from Mike Smith's book to help get an idea of what we are talking about in a quartering pattern, notice it isn't a windshield wiper pattern that the haters will call it, it is quartering, the dog isn't covering the same ground over and over. The dog is taking a "bite" of new ground each time. Also note this is the pattern without other objectives, almost all spaniels I've seen learn what objectives hold birds very fast.
> 
> You have to remember that spaniels arent setters or pointers with high head covering lots of ground beyond gun range with a job description of locating, and then pointing and holding the game until you get into gun range. Spaniels need to be in gun range, cover the ground in the beat, and flush all birds in the in the beat. Because they arent covering lots of ground they need to be very thorough. Therefore as you can be seen in Smiths drawing the dog is covering the ground well and with a face wind should be able to smell between casts. This is the basis for all other wind conditions that they will work on latter in training.
> 
> The other things we are continuing to work on with the Zackster is the hup at a distance and as always "come" with continuing increases in distractions for him.


YES,YES,YES ....................

Let's get this thread back on track. Enough with the cheap and boorish whines.

LUV the Smith book, lots of tips and tricks to get the most out of hunting spaniels. His figures and descriptions of ideal ground work for a flushing dog, of any breed, are first class. But its hard to pound a square peg in a round hole.:idea:

The haters plus their new shill can go back to their CDR thread, that's clearly where they belong. 

Hie-On.........


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> 7 month old Zac will be heading out in a few minutes to work on a little face wind quartering. This is quite natural for Zac but I want to reinforce what genetics has given him and begin working on the "2 toots" to turn. He is doing quite well with his retrieving in the house, and yard. We will do this training in very light cover today to try to minimize other distractions so that he can concentrate on the specific tasks we are working on.


Steve,

How about some new pics of the Zackster?? It been awhile.

And whats he weigh by now? Any idea at what he'll weigh when he's mature?? Thanks.

NB


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Steve,
> 
> How about some new pics of the Zackster?? It been awhile.
> 
> And whats he weigh by now? Any idea at what he'll weigh when he's mature?? Thanks.
> 
> NB


Well....I'm kindof hard on equipment, my new AquaVu is not working from last ice fishing season, our camera has only been working part time, and the Zackster is awfully quick for my rather slow trigger finger. But I will see what I can do. Sounds like we maybe doing some training with JAM in the next couple weeks and she is a GREAT photographer so some should be coming then.

His father was 26 pounds and mother a pinch smaller so I think he will be right in that mid-upper 20's. He is right around 25 pounds right now, my guess is he will end up right around 27-28 when he matures and muscles out at little more.


----------



## Duece22

NATTY BUMPO said:


> YES,YES,YES ....................
> 
> Let's get this thread back on track. Enough with the cheap and boorish whines.
> 
> LUV the Smith book, lots of tips and tricks to get the most out of hunting spaniels. His figures and descriptions of ideal ground work for a flushing dog, of any breed, are first class. But its hard to pound a square peg in a round hole.:idea:
> 
> The haters plus their new shill can go back to their CDR thread, that's clearly where they belong.
> 
> Hie-On.........


Who's hating Natty? 


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> I like messing around with puppies and getting them going on the right path. For many folks, however, buying a started dog just makes much more sense. That dog is mostly grown, so you can see what he/she will be, and you should be able to hunt over that dog right away.
> 
> We have bred a few litters of Britts. We always sold out on these litters because we had several pups reserved before the breeding. And I always kept at least one pup from our own litters.
> 
> NB





Gavan said:


> dogs if he/she is capable of giving the pups a good solid start and foundation. Well started dogs become effective adults and that is good advertising for the breeder. Also, the breeder gets feedback on the breeding program by working with several of the offspring.
> 
> Buyers who are new should probably buy a well started pup to have a better chance of getting an effective hunting dog when the pup becomes an adult. It's easier to learn to maintain trained abilities than it is to train them into the dog without the experience of having done so.
> 
> Having said that what usually happens is the breeder sells all the pups, since he/she is probably in it for the "money". The new buyer buys the pup and screws it up and then expects a pro to fix it, or worse, doesn't know it's screwed up and continues to let it run amok and screws up everybody's hunt within shouting distance. (-:





dauber said:


> This is the question many should ask themselves before getting a dog/pup. I have bought many pups of various breeds over the years. Being a rank amateur all had faults that I either had to explain away as (I really wanted a dog that does such) or accept the fact that I couldn't get the dog to the level I was planning on with the resources I had at that time. Then "Bingo" after we lost the key upland dog in our rotation, we started looking for a well started or finished dog. We ended up with a 3 year old pretty much finished cocker, we got him in Feb. and was a real stud in his first year and we knew he would be because we could see him work. This really fit us at the time with me spending the week downstate working and having very little time to train. We did this again a few years latter with a 3 year old cocker we got in late September. Again by his second trip out in the grouse woods he was fantastic, even though he'd never been on a grouse or woodcock, but knowing you are getting a dog with at least a decent nose and well trained you sure can have a blast hunting over them. The 3rd dog was a 9 month old started dog we got in August. This guy needed more control work but we knew his nose and quartering and it was a good deal for us since he has a fantastic nose and has easily turned into a bird finder and fetcher.
> 
> All three of these purchases worked very well for us at the time and situation we were in. Now being retired or semi-retired a pup fit into our plans and we are back to developing a young charge, this time even if he isn't ready to hunt this fall we are in good dog shape to not use him.
> 
> Again no right or wrong answers, just what gets you the results you are looking for and how much of a chance are you willing to take on the development. The one thing we haven't done and is a popular thing for some trailers I know is to get a pup, start it out for 9 months to a year then send to a pro to finish off.
> 
> Not being a breeder I'll leave that part of Hal's question to them.


Thanks fellas, good stuff for any one considering a new or another dog in their pack! I can certainly relate to all of your comments.

I for one as a breeder sold more started dogs than I did babes, it was an expensive process but I know the experience has helped me in my training efforts over the years.
Back on track Hie-on!

Did I hear some squeaking or something, something needed greasing, hurts my ears every time I hear that hi-pitch whine..oh well 
Hie-on!


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## FieldWalker

dauber said:


> For the record I will say that labs do not preform as well as spaniels in the uplands, just as spaniels do not preform as well as labs for duck dogs.


Still strange to me that all the spaniel breeds combined don't equal the number of Irish Setters or even Goldens in the LODGH survey.


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## dauber

FieldWalker said:


> Still strange to me that all the spaniel breeds combined don't equal the number of Irish Setters or even Goldens in the LODGH survey.


 
Great news for spaniel fanciers! Don't let the secrete out eh.


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## JAM

CDN_Cocker said:


> Here's another pic of Jake! He's 4 months old today!


Beautiful pup, CDN! Deb Strohl who owns the ECS NFC Cairo told me that the dogs she's owned that can lie with their back legs like Jake's in the photo always come back with excellent OFA results.

It's fun watching him grow. Keep the pics coming!


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## Jeffrey Towler

I have both Labs and Springers. I am SURPRISED by the AKC on this matter.I hunt pheasants with my labs as well as my springers. I will enter both labs and springers in the AKC spaniel Hunt tests.I feel that there will be a tremendous interest in the lab community. I can see the Lab show crowd having a large interest in this.


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## N M Mechanical

I don't plan on running in the upland test but what would be the standards?


"A unique characteristic of the spaniel hunt test is that every breed is judged against a different standard. A description of the breeds hunting style is submitted by each parent club & Judges are required to be familiar w/ them all & to judge accordingly.

http://classic.akc.org/events/huntin...ting_style.cfm

In essence this means that a Boykin spaniel could earn all 10s with a performance that would fail a Springer. 

I will be interested to see what the Labrador & Golden clubs submit. How would you define the hunting style? Would a bold flush be required or would you allow a hesitation or even a flash point".


I copied this from another site


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## CDN_Cocker

JAM said:


> Beautiful pup, CDN! Deb Strohl who owns the ECS NFC Cairo told me that the dogs she's owned that can lie with their back legs like Jake's in the photo always come back with excellent OFA results.
> 
> It's fun watching him grow. Keep the pics coming!


Ya that's the only way he lies, legs straight back - looks like a frog lol. Just flops down like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Birddog8487

CDN_Cocker said:


> Here's another pic of Jake! He's 4 months old today!


Jake is looking good. My little ones just turned 4 weeks Sunday.


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## gundogguy

N M Mechanical said:


> I don't plan on running in the upland test but what would be the standards?
> 
> 
> "A unique characteristic of the spaniel hunt test is that every breed is judged against a different standard. A description of the breeds hunting style is submitted by each parent club & Judges are required to be familiar w/ them all & to judge accordingly.
> 
> http://classic.akc.org/events/huntin...ting_style.cfm
> 
> In essence this means that a Boykin spaniel could earn all 10s with a performance that would fail a Springer.
> 
> I will be interested to see what the Labrador & Golden clubs submit. How would you define the hunting style? Would a bold flush be required or would you allow a hesitation or even a flash point".
> 
> 
> I copied this from another site


It just depends on who the_ attorney _is that is writing the description of the hunting retriever. Is it going to be a running style that would allow any retriever to qualify or only those that demonstrate the worthy characteristic of a good sound hunting dog.
In the Retriever testing venue there is no "running style document". all breeds eligible to test are view as "Retrievers"
Personally I IMO there shouldn't be a hunting style document in the first place.. Find the bird, flush the bird, retrieve the bird if down, Demonstrate appropriate manners depending on the level of the test.
Manners are universally except across the board in the dog world in the testing venue's


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## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> It just depends on who the_ attorney _is that is writing the description of the hunting retriever. Is it going to be a running style that would allow any retriever to qualify or only those that demonstrate the worthy characteristic of a good sound hunting dog.
> In the Retriever testing venue there is no "running style document". all breeds eligible to test are view as "Retrievers"
> Personally I IMO there shouldn't be a hunting style document in the first place.. Find the bird, flush the bird, retrieve the bird if down, Demonstrate appropriate manners depending on the level of the test.
> Manners are universally except across the board in the dog world in the testing venue's


Agree, x2, wooohooo

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## michgundog

[ame="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UfDRFcowi4#"]Ignore the seen .......Go back for a blind retrieve........ - YouTube[/ame]

Great control. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## CDN_Cocker

Awesome video!!! Love the speed of that dog!


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## yooperguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Awesome video!!! Love the speed of that dog!


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Ignore the seen .......Go back for a blind retrieve........ - YouTube
> 
> Great control.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yes he has some nice dogs working for him Cockers, Springer and even a Clumber.. Very responsive though still....a Clumber!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Yes he has some nice dogs working for him Cockers, Springer and even a Clumber.. Very responsive though still....a Clumber!


I know he has clumbers , but the dog in the link is a springer or am I missing something?? Sorry I may have posted the wrong vid??? 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I know he has clumbers , but the dog in the link is a springer or am I missing something?? Sorry I may have posted the wrong vid???
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 Your ok! The vid you posted is nice little Ess working. All I mention was the handler has a number spaniel breeds and one of them happened to be a Clumber, responsive yet still a...Clumber.


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## JAM

michgundog said:


> Great control.
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Nice video! What a great training exercise.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Your ok! The vid you posted is nice little Ess working. All I mention was the handler has a number spaniel breeds and one of them happened to be a Clumber, responsive yet still a...Clumber.


Thanks Hal, sometimes posting from my iPhone I'm never sure if the post are turning out correctly. There will be clumbers at our upcoming test. I guess they had a national event last weekend over in WI. 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Thanks Hal, sometimes posting from my iPhone I'm never sure if the post are turning out correctly. *There will be clumbers at our upcoming test. *
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Lucky you guys thanks for the warning I'll know where to stay away from!


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## Birddog8487

Couple pictures of the little guys. Hard to believe they're four and a half weeks old already.


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## michgundog

Birddog8487 said:


> Couple pictures of the little guys. Hard to believe they're four and a half weeks old already.


Good looking pups!! Thanks for sharing your pics.


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## Birddog8487

michgundog said:


> Good looking pups!! Thanks for sharing your pics.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks, I'm trying to get some better pics but the furry mob doesn't sit still long enough.


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## michgundog

http://m.youtube.com/#

Long video; but very good working spaniels!!


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## CDN_Cocker

Birddog8487 said:


> Thanks, I'm trying to get some better pics but the furry mob doesn't sit still long enough.


So cute! I want the white one!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> Your ok! The vid you posted is nice little Ess working. All I mention was the handler has a number spaniel breeds and one of them happened to be a Clumber, responsive yet still a...Clumber.


I watched his clumber vids. Pretty cool and definitely spaniel-esque but they seem so slow. I prefer the fast neurotic pace of a cocker lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gavan

spaniel hunt test with Terry Quinlan a few years back. I later learned that one day was Pittsburgh and the other day was the National Clumber club in conjunction with their Specialty that was being held in Pittsburgh. 8 to 10 clumbers each day. Should have gotten hazard pay for that one. Vary hard to stay focused when you are a field bred springer guy judging clumbers.


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## CDN_Cocker

Well took Jake out for his walk and threw him a couple of retrieves. The last week he's really started getting obsessive about it (awesome!) So since he hadn't retrieved in 2 days I took a dummy with me. Threw a couple easy marks on short grass then gave him a few tough ones in thick cover. Even lost one in long grass and hunted the area like a machine! First time he's really done that. At this point he was getting hot as its pretty warm here the past few days. So I threw the dummy into the shallow water of the lake. Without hesitation he jumped in splashing away and grabbed the dummy and came straight back! I gave him 3 more each a little farther and he loved it! Flew in each time! I definitely left him wanting more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> spaniel hunt test with Terry Quinlan a few years back. I later learned that one day was Pittsburgh and the other day was the National Clumber club in conjunction with their Specialty that was being held in Pittsburgh. *8 to 10 clumbers each day. Should have gotten hazard pay for that one. Vary hard to stay focused when you are a field bred springer guy judging clumbers.*




:lol::yikes::SHOCKED::yikes::SHOCKED::yikes::lol:!

Well if you play cards right you will never have todo that again and if do, know full well that i sure will never judge a test again. For any body or any reason!!


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## michgundog

Gavan said:


> spaniel hunt test with Terry Quinlan a few years back. I later learned that one day was Pittsburgh and the other day was the National Clumber club in conjunction with their Specialty that was being held in Pittsburgh. 8 to 10 clumbers each day. Should have gotten hazard pay for that one. Vary hard to stay focused when you are a field bred springer guy judging clumbers.


There probably great dogs for a shooting preserve or a duck blind. But for Michigan wild bird hunting, I don't see where they would be any good. There only so many of hours of day light in a given day. 


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----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> There probably great dogs for a shooting preserve or a duck blind. But for Michigan wild bird hunting, I don't see where they would be any good. There only so many of hours of day light in a given day.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


It does not matter how you try to spin this whole subject. There are now 15 breeds of dogs eligible for the now defunct Spaniel hunt Test, from this point on to be known as the Flushing dog hunt test.
15 breeds of dogs and because of the show dog/bench/conformation, people there will be 15 Breed running style documents to interpret and decipher and remember. Hell I worked with all of these breeds,.Except for the Sussex, but I could not possible remember or apply the breed running style documents under test conditions..
What person do you know has trained and handle in test or trial all 15 of these breeds? In the current judges panel in the upcoming S.Michigan test in May How many of the breeds have been trained and handle in test or trial those people that will be judging? (Looking at the current Panel I would dare say that FBEC, FBESS, Field spaniels and Clumber spaniels are well covered by,That leaves 11 breeds that the judges would have knowledge of or interest in) I could only imagine how Finnigan could judge an Airedale or a Curlie:lol:
What possible person can give a *paid*(remember these tests cost real money)contestant and their dog a fair and unbiased evaluation, if they must have the insights and knowledge to judge the work of 15 different breeds and the work they do in the field.
I know no one after all these years of training dogs that can honestly say they are up to the task of judgement in these 'cats and dog' testing process. The Spaniel hunt Test is dead, It will be interesting when Mixed Breeds are allowed to be tested and they have a running style document.
_I bet the Shepard/collie style document will be a laugh-er!_

In the POINTING DOG Hunt test there is *NO* Breed Running style documents. Brits have to run with ES, Or GSP The hunting instincts and trained behavior are judged against the same standards, even though some breeds are inherently speedier or one might even say birdier.
Shoud not the Pointing Lab folks and their fine dogs be able to run for test title in the Pointing dog hunt test program, why are they being discriminated against in this way! I feel that some civil rights are being abused here now.

Movement needs to be afoot to dis band the Breed running style Docs for the flushing dog test and put Flushing dogs on the same plain as the POINTING breeds and the RETRIEVER breeds.


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## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> Movement needs to be afoot to dis band the Breed running style Docs for the flushing dog test and put Flushing dogs on the same plain as the POINTING breeds and the RETRIEVER breeds.


Hal, I don't think you'd get any argument from anyone on the above. 

If a clumber does it at a different speed and with a different style, but stills does it, so be it, but it's still doing the work set forth in the criteria of the test.


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## FieldWalker

Steelheadfred said:


> If a clumber does it at a different speed and with a different style, but stills does it, so be it, but it's still doing the work set forth in the criteria of the test.


I 100% agree... but it seems to be the "how" that seperates trials from hunt tests.


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## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> But for Michigan wild bird hunting, I don't see where they would be any good. There only so many of hours of day light in a given day.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


"Quote of the Week" right there. You'd surely run outa daylight before hitting the end of the first cover.

Good One, Mike.:lol:


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Hal,
> 
> If a clumber does it at a different speed and with a different style, but stills does it, so be it, but it's still doing the work set forth in the criteria of the test.


Please do not misinterpret the my thinking on the Clumber. I have no issue with the different speed stuff between the different breeds of dogs.. it's a_bout doing the work_ set forth in the criteria. Do to the way a Clumber works their strength is in doing pack work on rabbits. It is not working 1 on1 with a handler. Their hunting style if you will, comes from working in teams or in small packs. As a breed they are the worst marking spaniel in the house. the old phrase couldn't mark their butts in dark would really apply. In pack hunt there would be additional eyes to help with the marking of shot game and even then it would be iffy.. They are the "Mr MaGoo's of the dog world.
In this country there is just no good way to evaluate a pack or team of spaniels..so they get invited to the spaniel hunt test and it is all up hill from there.
I only make those comments because of the time spent developing 7 different Clumbers.. 

Fieldwalker... but it seems to be the "how" that seperates trials from hunt tests.

The Clumber has NO trial system Basically they are show dog/pets in this country. They go to tests to '"prove" to the world they are a "hunting dog"..

_Does anyone believe that a test dog is a hunting dog?_


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Hal, I don't think you'd get any argument from anyone on the above.



Steeli you and i the same page now that is scary..
If my comments got out I would expect 15 Parent club presidents to want a contract my hide by morning.
Especial those breeds that have Presidents that are from the confirmation world..

Think of the breed running style documents a written standard...much like the conformation standard that every breed has as a way to describe the breed phsically and in some case the personality of the dog.
Show dog people's whole life is wrapped up in that conformation document.. as an Aside my wife and I made five AKC Spaniel DOG show champions I never made an attempt to make gundogs out any of them. The were fine dogs we loved them but they were our confirmations dog not hi-end performance dogs. That experience gives us much insight into the way confirmation folks think and operate.
As show dog folks entering the hunting test world they have a great deal of need for a written formula God help if you mess with the documents that describe their breed..

On the other hand performance folks look at one thing "Git er done"
My running doc that I have often used is fairly simple Find'em,flush'em,retrieve'em with manners..That is fairly expansive compared to "GIT er Done"

By the way no one from the AKC has got back with me yet!


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## brucew63

"Hi, I'm new here". I've read through this whole thread, you're obviously a very tight group and I've got no intention of barging in. I'm not even from Michigan: southeastern Wisconsin most of the year, but much of summer and fall you could find me about 10 miles south of the UP border.

I'm only posting here because of a video I saw way back at #161, labeled "Boykin Spaniel Field Trials", and I just wanted to comment on that since it seems there might be some unfamiliarity with the content in that vid. First, it was shot at a local club's event, not really a field trial and they don't imply that it is. For what most of you are accustomed to, it's more like glorified monthly practice sessions, and only for retrieving work, no upland at all. Almost everything in the video is their puppies, either under 6 months or under 12 months. There are one or two Novice dogs, and the one blind retrieve is from their Intermediate class. Again, this is strictly retrieving, since down south that's all they utilize their Boykins for, and their retrieving is mostly doves. Oh, there are a small handful who do some upland hunting, but that's only for quail; and almost all of the native quail are gone, and so the quail shooter visits game preserve plantations.

The Boykin Spaniel Society does hold an Upland Field Trial each January, but I've never been and therefore wouldn't be competent to comment on it at all. Other than to say that they don't hunt in cover anywhere near as challenging as what we have here in the north. The participants in the Upland FT are mostly locals, although about 5 Yankees do venture down. Three divisions, Novice pulls in about 30 dogs, Intermediate about 20 dogs and their Open class will have 10 to 15 entrants. The game bird is always quail.

Again, I just wanted to clarify that the video wasn't of an upland event. Thanks, and sorry for the intrusion.


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## michgundog

Thanks for the PM, here's the working link. Longer vid but a good one. 


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## gundogguy

brucew63 said:


> "Hi, I'm new here". I've read through this whole thread, you're obviously a very tight group and I've got no intention of barging in. I'm not even from Michigan: southeastern Wisconsin most of the year, but much of summer and fall you could find me about 10 miles south of the UP border.
> 
> I'm only posting here because of a video I saw way back at #161, labeled "Boykin Spaniel Field Trials", and I just wanted to comment on that since it seems there might be some unfamiliarity with the content in that vid. First, it was shot at a local club's event, not really a field trial and they don't imply that it is. For what most of you are accustomed to, it's more like glorified monthly practice sessions, and only for retrieving work, no upland at all. Almost everything in the video is their puppies, either under 6 months or under 12 months. There are one or two Novice dogs, and the one blind retrieve is from their Intermediate class. Again, this is strictly retrieving, since down south that's all they utilize their Boykins for, and their retrieving is mostly doves. Oh, there are a small handful who do some upland hunting, but that's only for quail; and almost all of the native quail are gone, and so the quail shooter visits game preserve plantations.
> 
> The Boykin Spaniel Society does hold an Upland Field Trial each January, but I've never been and therefore wouldn't be competent to comment on it at all. Other than to say that they don't hunt in cover anywhere near as challenging as what we have here in the north. The participants in the Upland FT are mostly locals, although about 5 Yankees do venture down. Three divisions, Novice pulls in about 30 dogs, Intermediate about 20 dogs and their Open class will have 10 to 15 entrants. The game bird is always quail.
> 
> Again, I just wanted to clarify that the video wasn't of an upland event. Thanks, and* sorry for the intrusio*n.


No Intrusion what so ever. I had not read any comments on that particular vid. It was display for for a new person that is thinking about acquiring a Boykin. That venue displayed in the vid dovetails nicely with what the breed Boykin spaniel is fundamentally all about. 
You chime in any time you care to!


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## brucew63

Thanks. "what the breed is fundamentally all about" is an interesting statement. I'm of the opinion that "fundamentally" varies greatly depending upon where one lives and what one chooses to do with the dog. The storyline is that 100 years ago, a South Carolinian named Boykin threw together a bit of this and a bit of that to make a turkey questing flusher of a small enough size to safely and comfortably ride in the rickety watercraft popular in the region. The watercraft were used to float for miles, down river to the turkey hunting fields, and any errant waterfowl encountered along the several-days journey might fall victim to the gun: in those cases, a "little dog that doesn't rock the boat" but was an eager and very capable retriever was desired. Although no recipe book was kept, a descendent of Boykin once reckoned that a "true" Boykin spaniel was most likely to be 3/8 pointing breeds, 4/8 spaniel breeds and 1/8 Chesapeake Bay retriever. How much of which is anyone's guess. Personally, I believe there's on-going selective breeding occurring among some which keeps "fundamentally" in motion. For example, Boykins first began playing in the HRC retriever events 15-ish years ago, and within the past 5 or so there's been a noticeable movement among a handful of breeders to select their prime stock from HRCH titled dogs. I don't know how dogs are judged elsewhere in the country, but my first-hand impressions of HRC Finished judgement in and around Wisconsin is that retriever dogs who give in to their nose and curiosity are less than desirable. Are the HRCH-titled Boykins just more acceptable of the retriever type training or are they "less spaniel like" in physical and mental attributes, I don't know.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> It does not matter how you try to spin this whole subject. There are now 15 breeds of dogs eligible for the now defunct Spaniel hunt Test, from this point on to be known as the Flushing dog hunt test.
> 15 breeds of dogs and because of the show dog/bench/conformation, people there will be 15 Breed running style documents to interpret and decipher and remember. Hell I worked with all of these breeds,.Except for the Sussex, but I could not possible remember or apply the breed running style documents under test conditions..
> What person do you know has trained and handle in test or trial all 15 of these breeds? In the current judges panel in the upcoming S.Michigan test in May How many of the breeds have been trained and handle in test or trial those people that will be judging? (Looking at the current Panel I would dare say that FBEC, FBESS, Field spaniels and Clumber spaniels are well covered by,That leaves 11 breeds that the judges would have knowledge of or interest in) I could only imagine how Finnigan could judge an Airedale or a Curlie:lol:
> What possible person can give a *paid*(remember these tests cost real money)contestant and their dog a fair and unbiased evaluation, if they must have the insights and knowledge to judge the work of 15 different breeds and the work they do in the field.
> I know no one after all these years of training dogs that can honestly say they are up to the task of judgement in these 'cats and dog' testing process. The Spaniel hunt Test is dead, It will be interesting when Mixed Breeds are allowed to be tested and they have a running style document.
> _I bet the Shepard/collie style document will be a laugh-er!_
> 
> In the POINTING DOG Hunt test there is *NO* Breed Running style documents. Brits have to run with ES, Or GSP The hunting instincts and trained behavior are judged against the same standards, even though some breeds are inherently speedier or one might even say birdier.
> Shoud not the Pointing Lab folks and their fine dogs be able to run for test title in the Pointing dog hunt test program, why are they being discriminated against in this way! I feel that some civil rights are being abused here now.
> 
> Movement needs to be afoot to dis band the Breed running style Docs for the flushing dog test and put Flushing dogs on the same plain as the POINTING breeds and the RETRIEVER breeds.


I agree, it will be tough for a judge. I had someone mention to me, that to him that "the AKC is trying to put together a HRC type program." It's too bad the spaniel hunt test program has to be brunt of this decision if that's the case. 
I just don't see any benefit to the spaniel community at all. Is a lab guy/gal really going to sit all day in a AKC judging seminar to judge spaniel hunt test or "flushing dog tests"?

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## michgundog

brucew63 said:


> Thanks. "what the breed is fundamentally all about" is an interesting statement. I'm of the opinion that "fundamentally" varies greatly depending upon where one lives and what one chooses to do with the dog. The storyline is that 100 years ago, a South Carolinian named Boykin threw together a bit of this and a bit of that to make a turkey questing flusher of a small enough size to safely and comfortably ride in the rickety watercraft popular in the region. The watercraft were used to float for miles, down river to the turkey hunting fields, and any errant waterfowl encountered along the several-days journey might fall victim to the gun: in those cases, a "little dog that doesn't rock the boat" but was an eager and very capable retriever was desired. Although no recipe book was kept, a descendent of Boykin once reckoned that a "true" Boykin spaniel was most likely to be 3/8 pointing breeds, 4/8 spaniel breeds and 1/8 Chesapeake Bay retriever. How much of which is anyone's guess. Personally, I believe there's on-going selective breeding occurring among some which keeps "fundamentally" in motion. For example, Boykins first began playing in the HRC retriever events 15-ish years ago, and within the past 5 or so there's been a noticeable movement among a handful of breeders to select their prime stock from HRCH titled dogs. I don't know how dogs are judged elsewhere in the country, but my first-hand impressions of HRC Finished judgement in and around Wisconsin is that retriever dogs who give in to their nose and curiosity are less than desirable. Are the HRCH-titled Boykins just more acceptable of the retriever type training or are they "less spaniel like" in physical and mental attributes, I don't know.


Great insight, thanks for posting!!


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## gundogguy

a fire hazard. Kicking dirt,with sparks coming off her heels!
Photo by Julie Wallace


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> a fire hazard. Kicking dirt,with sparks coming off her heels!
> Photo by Julie Wallace


Looking good! Hie on, Zeta!


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## JackieTreeHorn

Fred, it appears you didn't read his post; rather you went on a wild tangent for no apparent reason. I will not speak to his original question since you have tainted it with gibberish. This is a place where spaniel fanciers come to exchange information, not challenges or vitriol. 


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Can you kindly offer some statistics about your grouse hunting, flush rates per hour, birds found, numbers harvested. Do you know the gentlemen in MN with the Golden s? Do you feel it's a breeding thing or a breed thing, or maybe a handler thing?
> 
> I'll expound further: I hunt the two or three fifty pound Labradors and hunt behind another two or three fifty pound labs. I also hunt behind an English Cocker from time to time. I hunt around 45 days a season these days but I used to hunt 60+, speaking grouse only.
> 
> I hunt the same counties as Natty Bumpo, frequent poster to the Spaniel Corner, I'm confident we hunt a lot of the same covers, I've hunted with Natty a few three times in the grouse woods, I've broke bread and shared beers with him, I've shot skeet and sporting clays with him. We hunt many of the same covers.
> 
> I kill more birds in a three or four day weekend than Natty kills all season, now that sounds like a dick comment, but it's not. I honestly believe if I owned the two cockers Natty owned, my numbers would not differ much more than 10-15% either way. I also believe if he owned the dogs I own, his numbers would not be much different either. I believe I could swap setters of Dr. McDonald's for my labs and my numbers would be the same. See I'm 35, I'm a good shot, killing north of 70% of the grouse I shot at last year, I walk twice as fast as Natty Bumpo who is in his late 60's or early 70's, and I promise you this, I hope when I'm his age I can still move like he does. You see I'm a better shot at 35 years old than Natty is at his age, I walk more miles, I hunt harder, and I think he would tell you I'm a pretty driven individual. There was a time in my life I spent 100+ days a year in the grouse woods, scouting, hunting, training dogs on wild birds. Work and family have cut my hours down.
> 
> The dogs I own fit my needs in the woods, I can push them hard and long, and Rodney has hunted over them as have lots of folks from this site. Natty has dogs that are perfect for him, my dogs are probably more dog than he needs. It's not a breed thing, its a breeding thing, a match thing, and a knowledge thing.
> 
> So you tell me, why do I kill more birds in a three four day weekend than Natty kills all year? Is it cause I hunt labs and he hunts Cockers? Or is it because I'm a driven individual that is a good shot and has well bred dogs I've shown thousands of grouse? Is it because I can walk twice as far and twice as fast? Not cause Natty is less of a hunter or less driven, but because I'm 35 and he is twice my age, are my reflexes faster? My eye sight better? My woodsmanship at the peak of my hunting days? I promise you one thing, the fact that I kill more birds than Natty has nothing to do with his dogs if you compared it hour to hour. My dogs and I cover 50% more ground in an hour than he does. It's not his dogs, his breed of dog.
> 
> He has nothing to be ashamed of, he has had a long successful run of wild bird hunting, I hope that I can still move like he does at his age, and the fire still burns and the passion still is alive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


*What is wrong with you?
Have you been weened off the your meds and the scrip been deny*


Steelheadfred said:


> Thanks for the info, sounds like a great place, would you say a guy with two labs or two setters or two spaniels, finding 6 grouse an hour, is it the breed of dog or something else like the breeding/line, or the guy driving the truck?


*Obviously this a bleed over from the fishing story about the one that got way.... big deal! who cares, no one at the Corner *



JackieTreeHorn said:


> Fred, it appears you didn't read his post; rather you went on a wild tangent for no apparent reason. I will not speak to his original question since you have tainted it with gibberish. This is a place where spaniel fanciers come to exchange information, not challenges or vitriol.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


J*ackie, where ever Steeli shows up strife, conflict, demonization, vitriol of others and their dog is sure to follow. His thread he started earlier in the week was completely deleted because of his twisted use of facts and because he was challenge he began his bully tactics of lashing out at individuals and their opinions that were backed up by facts.*


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## Steelheadfred

Gail, for you I'll answer, in my opinion the spaniel culture is wining back market share, case. In point the ECS.

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## Steelheadfred

brucew63 said:


> When I go to a game preserve/hunt club with my dogs, I absolutely love to scratch hunt the fields in which Labs were just used, because I know there are still plenty of birds out there for my dogs to find and flush, and me to shoot. Likewise, am I just smarter about where to find grouse, or are my dogs just better at their job than the Lab owners who try their luck in the same areas? I suspect it's the dogs.


Hal, this was the notion I was challenging, the notion of is it a breed thing or a breeding/handler thing, I think it's a great conversation. Clearly you can question the use of other breeds on the sc2- but don't challenge the spaniel itself.



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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Hope to see Reggie again this fall at our trial, he's a very nice dog. FYI, we're holding it at same location.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Hey I was going to acknowledge your comments on the Reggie Video, howver I got side tracked by the non spaniel jabber walkies and it slipped my mind.

Reggie is fine dog,I very rarely use the term great about my dogs or any one else's for that matter unless the dog proves it 's greatness. It bothers me to see the word diminished. That particular exercise in the vid is one i probable enjoy more than the dogs do. Because from it one can keep adding and adding stimulators and factors that can disrupt the dogs problem solving abilities, and it is the dogs ability to solve problems that are presented to them that I truly enjoy.
As fine a dog as Reggie is he is not trial material, oh he has the skill sets and mentally he very well adjusted, His strength and power can be breath taking at times, however he lacks "IT" like so many dogs that enter trials he lacks "IT", "IT" is the factor that can not be measured "IT" is the substance that cannot be weighed, "IT' is the commodity that dogmen and women are questing for and yet very seldom do they recognize when they have it. 
So I am very sure that we would not run Reggie at Southern Michigan, besides he just nice meat dog that I really enjoy interacting with and I'm selfish, why would want to share him with the world.


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## brucew63

Steelheadfred said:


> Thanks for the info, sounds like a great place, would you say a guy with two labs or two setters or two spaniels, finding 6 grouse an hour, is it the breed of dog or something else like the breeding/line, or the guy driving the truck?


Three guys meet at a diner for breakfast: #1 has a pair of Labs, #2 a pair of setters, #3 a pair of spaniels. At 8:00, each goes his own way but before departing they agree to meet at the same diner for lunch at noon.

They rejoin as planned and compare notes: one team found 6 birds, one found 2 birds and one found none. _Was this differentiation due to man, dog, or bloodline?_

It seems to me that with all of the potential variables involved, nothing accurate can be discerned without some narrowing. Among the few shared variables: (a) all 3 hunted in the same basic geographic area, and (b) each team was one man and two dogs of the same breed.


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## dauber

I got word that YooperGuy was transported to the hospital from work yesterday and may be there for a couple days. Hope you get well soon my friend.


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Hal, this was the notion I was challenging, the notion of is it a breed thing or a breeding/handler thing, I think it's a great conversation. Clearly you can question the use of other breeds on the sc2- but don't challenge the spaniel itself.
> 
> 
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Steeli I would happen to agree with Bruce. You forget i managed Shooting Preserve for 20 years. I booked an aweful lot of hunts with spaniel guys because of scratch birds. invariable left by the Lab guy.
I have seen how your conversations go In fact the questions you are asking are identical to one that you have asked before, and your conversations never go very well. Just look at your recent thread that was delete in it's entirety it is only a matter of time before you go off the deep end.
I have train hunted with literally all known sporting breeds of dogs and a few non-sporting breeds of dog I do not discuss their merits or shortcomings her at the Corner. If you want to talk Upland Labs you have thread, if you want to talk wild birds start a thread or there is probable on out there.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> I got word that YooperGuy was transported to the hospital from work yesterday and may be there for a couple days. Hope you get well soon my friend.


Get well soon YooperGuy!!!


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## JAM

dauber said:


> I got word that YooperGuy was transported to the hospital from work yesterday and may be there for a couple days. Hope you get well soon my friend.


Hope he's OK and home soon. Keep us posted, Dauber.


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## Jeffrey Towler

Hank out at Omega


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## michgundog

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hank out at Omega


Nice picture Jeff!! Hanks a good boy. 

Here's a spring picture of Finn out at John and Toni's Sunday. He was marking a water retrieve.









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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I got word that YooperGuy was transported to the hospital from work yesterday and may be there for a couple days. Hope you get well soon my friend.


hang in there Yooper Guy we are all praying for you!


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## Jeffrey Towler

michgundog said:


> Nice picture Jeff!! Hanks a good boy.
> 
> Here's a spring picture of Finn out at John and Toni's Sunday. He was marking a water retrieve.
> View attachment 37792
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 Finns Looking good!


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## Jeffrey Towler

gundogguy said:


> hang in there Yooper Guy we are all praying for you!


Prayers sent


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## yooperguy

Thank you guys. Have been battling something bronchial for several weeks without much improvement I'm afraid. I still don't know what I've got yet (lots of tests) but I'm hanging in there. 

I know that I'm still a stranger to most everyone here. I can't tell you how much yours thoughts and prayers mean to me. 


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## Jeffrey Towler

yooperguy2003 said:


> Thank you guys. Have been battling something bronchial for several weeks without much improvement I'm afraid. I still don't know what I've got yet (lots of tests) but I'm hanging in there.
> 
> I know that I'm still a stranger to most everyone here. I can't tell you how much yours thoughts and prayers mean to me.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 I hope you get better quick.


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## michgundog

yooperguy2003 said:


> Thank you guys. Have been battling something bronchial for several weeks without much improvement I'm afraid. I still don't know what I've got yet (lots of tests) but I'm hanging in there.
> 
> I know that I'm still a stranger to most everyone here. I can't tell you how much yours thoughts and prayers mean to me.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Hang in there and think positive!! 


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## dauber

Here are a few pics from this afternoon's retrieve drills.

1. Zac after some petting and praise on the place board.
2. Zac doing a short remote release on an even shorter retrieve.
3. Smoke after his first retrieve.
4. Dante after his first retrieve. Both Smoke and Dante then held the object until a double was thrown, then told to give and make the retrieves.

Zac Update.
Zac was introduced to some quartering drills with the assistance of very capable helpers a couple weeks ago with as JAM calls it "shake-n-bake". He then was over the next week slowly intro'd into dead birds and bumpers being rolled in behind (so he couldn't see them thrown in) to have to begin using his nose to find the prize. He has also been introduced to the gun in various situations. He is very close to 8 months old right now. In a little over a week we will be going to the Paul McGagh clinic at Christine Lavier's. Really looking forward to that.


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Here are a few pics from this afternoon's retrieve drills.
> 
> 1. Zac after some petting and praise on the place board.
> 2. Zac doing a short remote release on an even shorter retrieve.
> 3. Smoke after his first retrieve.
> 4. Dante after his first retrieve. Both Smoke and Dante then held the object until a double was thrown, then told to give and make the retrieves.
> 
> Zac Update.
> Zac was introduced to some quartering drills with the assistance of very capable helpers a couple weeks ago with as JAM calls it "shake-n-bake". He then was over the next week slowly intro'd into dead birds and bumpers being rolled in behind (so he couldn't see them thrown in) to have to begin using his nose to find the prize. He has also been introduced to the gun in various situations. He is very close to 8 months old right now. In a little over a week we will be going to the Paul McGagh clinic at Christine Lavier's. Really looking forward to that.


Hey Dauber, Zac and Pack are looking good! I wish I could have swung the trip to the Paul M. clinic, too. Can't wait to hear your report.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here are a few pics from this afternoon's retrieve drills.
> 
> 1. Zac after some petting and praise on the place board.
> 2. Zac doing a short remote release on an even shorter retrieve.
> 3. Smoke after his first retrieve.
> 4. Dante after his first retrieve. Both Smoke and Dante then held the object until a double was thrown, then told to give and make the retrieves.
> 
> Zac Update.
> Zac was introduced to some quartering drills with the assistance of very capable helpers a couple weeks ago with as JAM calls it "shake-n-bake". He then was over the next week slowly intro'd into dead birds and bumpers being rolled in behind (so he couldn't see them thrown in) to have to begin using his nose to find the prize. He has also been introduced to the gun in various situations. He is very close to 8 months old right now. In a little over a week we will be going to the Paul McGagh clinic at Christine Lavier's. Really looking forward to that.


Outstanding, outstanding Got to luv it when you got capable "shake and bake helpers". (circle jerk or keep away are other names for the exercise as well.) {Truthfully Circle Jerk is the beginning of steadying drill used off of the quartering drills}

I can just a imagine how you are looking forward to see Paul M. The Zacster is ready for that high profile workshop!

We'll talk before go.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Here are a few pics from this afternoon's retrieve drills.
> 
> 1. Zac after some petting and praise on the place board.
> 2. Zac doing a short remote release on an even shorter retrieve.
> 3. Smoke after his first retrieve.
> 4. Dante after his first retrieve. Both Smoke and Dante then held the object until a double was thrown, then told to give and make the retrieves.
> 
> Zac Update.
> Zac was introduced to some quartering drills with the assistance of very capable helpers a couple weeks ago with as JAM calls it "shake-n-bake". He then was over the next week slowly intro'd into dead birds and bumpers being rolled in behind (so he couldn't see them thrown in) to have to begin using his nose to find the prize. He has also been introduced to the gun in various situations. He is very close to 8 months old right now. In a little over a week we will be going to the Paul McGagh clinic at Christine Lavier's. Really looking forward to that.


Steve have fun at the seminar tell Chris and Justin I said hi. Here's a shot of Finn next to their trailer.









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## Jeffrey Towler

Dauber, very nice photos!


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## gundogguy

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hank out at Omega


Hank looks like he is getting ready to get it on! If there ever was dog that should been with a Circuit Pro and campaigned it was.. Hank! 
Hank with Ken Willis or Gary Wilson or Mike Wallace, or Ben Martin, would have proven to be an unstoppable force!


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Here are a few pics from this afternoon's retrieve drills.
> 
> 1. Zac after some petting and praise on the place board.
> 2. Zac doing a short remote release on an even shorter retrieve.
> 3. Smoke after his first retrieve.
> 4. Dante after his first retrieve. Both Smoke and Dante then held the object until a double was thrown, then told to give and make the retrieves.
> 
> Zac Update.
> Zac was introduced to some quartering drills with the assistance of very capable helpers a couple weeks ago with as JAM calls it "shake-n-bake". He then was over the next week slowly intro'd into dead birds and bumpers being rolled in behind (so he couldn't see them thrown in) to have to begin using his nose to find the prize. He has also been introduced to the gun in various situations. He is very close to 8 months old right now. In a little over a week we will be going to the Paul McGagh clinic at Christine Lavier's. Really looking forward to that.


THANKS for the update, Steve. Your crew is looking spiffy. The Zackster is growing into a very good looking boy. Really like his coat color. One nice thing about FBECS, you can find any color you want.

Good to See some green grass, finally, in 'da YP, EH

GLAD you get to go to the McGagh clinic. I don't know if his wife, Vickey Thomas will be there too, but people should know that V. is a very accomplished spaniel trainer/handler/judge in here own right. Maybe you can file a little "trip report" when 'ya get back for the rest of us. I'm sure you will pick up some good training tips, etc.

One thing about Glencoe Kennels- there are no "*cheese champions*" allowed on the premises!!:lol: And NO YO-YO DOGS EITHER.:yikes:


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Hank looks like he is getting ready to get it on! If there ever was dog that should been with a Circuit Pro and campaigned it was.. Hank!
> Hank with Ken Willis or Gary Wilson or Mike Wallace, or Ben Martin, would have proven to be an unstoppable force!


Wait until you see his son who's with Gary!! 


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## Gavan

My wife has me tagging along on cruise of the Mediterranean or I would be at the seminar as well. Dog trainers don't get any better than Paul McGaugh and his approach is likely very different than any I have experienced. Have fun.


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## CDN_Cocker

NATTY BUMPO said:


> One thing about Glencoe Kennels- there are no "*cheese champions*" allowed on the premises!!:lol: And NO YO-YO DOGS EITHER.:yikes:


Whats a cheese champion?


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## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> This was posted over on UJ. Hal, Steve and team do you feel this is accurate or no? I am not versed well enough on the subject to pick it apart. Thoughts?
> 
> I think I heard several years ago that approx 20% of all field entries at AKC events are spaniels. That may have been true several decades ago, but it's nowhere close to being accurate today.Based on the AKC's 2012 event statistics, 12% of the hunting dog hunt tests (pointers/retrievers/spaniels) were spaniel tests (117 of 944), but only 5.4% of the entries were from spaniel hunt tests (2745 out of 50,537). The FT numbers were marginally better (19% of the total trials, 10% of the total entries).The recent change by the AKC wasn't an attempt to generate revenues; there are no meaningful net revenues to be had here. It's an attempt to generate interest in traditional spaniel field events, which have not kept up when compared to AKC pointing and retrieving breed events.The core issue spaniel folks have to address is this: In 1940 if you encounter a hunter with a pure-bred flushing dog in the field, there was probably a 90% chance it was a spaniel. Today it's probably less than 10%, and maybe less than 5%.Blaming the AKC is whistling past the graveyard; the AKC that you want to blame is the same AKC that allow for huge growth in "market share" and in breed growth among Labs, GSPs and Britts. The story of sporting dog breeds in post-WWII America has been about the growth in the AKC sporting breeds, taking market share away from the traditionalist/specialist "English" breeds, Labs excluded.If the spaniel folks believe that a well-bred and well-trained spaniel is a better upland dog than a retriever breed not historically bred for the work, inviting them to your hunt tests may be the best way for you to win back some market share.So where is the discussions among spaniel folks as to why fewer and fewer upland hunters are choosing spaniels over Labs? If that problem didnt exist your tests & trials would be full and changing spaniel tests into flushing dog tests wouldnt have been a viable option.JMO,Dave
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


It has taken me a bit to digest these figures. Whole lot of apple and pears being compared here.
Take out the retriever hunt test numbers and only compare the poinitng dog hunt test numbers against the spaniel test numbers, In other words you cannot compare the non-slip dog test events against the upland dog events it is meaningless to do so. Like comparing beer sales to blue jean sales.
Now if you want ot persist with your anaology you also find out what the numbers are for the beagle and hound events those numbers outdo all other events in the field combine. Should we all be running beagles based on that numerical out come. 
Just taking a sampling of pointing dog events and spaniels along with results indicated a popularity difference in pure numbers in favor of the pointing breeds with no pointing breed being dominate with the test culture.
In the sample I only review the Master level events. Junior and Senior(*) are in themselves non essential.(*) Pointing dog had in 3 tests 45 dogs entered and with 7 qualifiers in Master. The average entry size for the pointing dog test at all levels was 40 dogs. in the Spaniel test sample 36 dogs entered 6 dogs qualifying. The average entry for the spaniel test was 31 dogs. Which is about all the dogs that can be tested for the corresponding venues in a given day. There is some room for growth in the upland tests but real growth can only come from more tests on given day through-out the country. These numbers did not surprize me in any way.

Though you do seem to have a propensity for breed popularity and I find it non-important. As long as a breed has a large enough genetic gene pool and proper health testing on a constant vigilance, I'm quite pleased with where the Cocker or Springer is at in the breed popularity contest.

Concerning the Retriever attending a flushing dog hunt test I DO NOT REALLY CARE! Those individuals are more than likely going to be marginal dogs that are having a hard time meeting the standards set by the retriever community anyway. In other words it will be come a fun thing to do until the standards become to difficult. *****s and Giggles right thats all it is.


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> My wife has me tagging along on cruise of the Mediterranean or I would be at the seminar as well. Dog trainers don't get any better than Paul McGaugh and his approach is likely very different than any I have experienced. Have fun.


 
Been lots of problems on those cruise ships lately:yikes:. Have fun.

Thank you all. It is good timing for young Zac to get his trainer more info and have someone with Paul's knowledge to get a look at him. We will have fun and I will try to do a recap when we get back. 

Young Zac had a good morning run today...made a few real good finds on some bumpers I pre-seeded earlier this morning, and he ran with much energy. I'm not sure if he quite has "IT" as Hal says, but he has "quite a bit". Sure is a blast watching him develop.


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## CDN_Cocker

Hey guys just a couple quick questions. I have always thrown retrieves for Jake myself and many times he loses it and has to hunt the area for it (which he has become really good at). However, I employed the girlfriend today to throw a couple for him instead. She stood down field from us and threw the ball out and slightly towards us while I held Jake back. We did three total but same problem - doesn't watch the ball just where he sees the first bounce and then over runs it, under runs it or takes a funky line. He always finds it cuz he starts hunting but I want him to start watching the ball and marking. Will this come with time or should I be doing something different?


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## NATTY BUMPO

CDN_Cocker said:


> Whats a cheese champion?


A "cheese champion" is a term I've heard used among field trial aficionados.
Refers to a dog named by a group which is not qualified ie; licienced or sanctioned, to hold bird dog Championships. The AKC, AFTCA, NASTRA are such qualified bodies. 

Glencoe doesn't bother with non-sanctioned events.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Hey guys just a couple quick questions. I have always thrown retrieves for Jake myself and many times he loses it and has to hunt the area for it (which he has become really good at). However, I employed the girlfriend today to throw a couple for him instead. She stood down field from us and threw the ball out and slightly towards us while I held Jake back. We did three total but same problem - doesn't watch the ball just where he sees the first bounce and then over runs it, under runs it or takes a funky line. He always finds it cuz he starts hunting but I want him to start watching the ball and marking. Will this come with time or should I be doing something different?


CDN your doing well including the girl friend, however it is time to change items that you are throwning canvas bumpers small knobby plastic bumpers would be the change you should make. By not changing you may inadvertently cave in to your dogs avoidance of the new and different situations. small dokken bumpers small avery flashers would also be a good change. By the time your pup is a year old you should have a small chest full of different retrieving items. The more the merrier.



NATTY BUMPO said:


> A "cheese champion" is a term I've heard used among field trial aficionados.
> Refers to a dog named by a group which is not qualified ie; licienced or sanctioned, to hold bird dog Championships. The AKC, AFTCA, NASTRA are such qualified bodies.
> 
> Glencoe doesn't bother with non-sanctioned events.


:lol::lol: Nancy and I always called those "Cherrio Champs" we do not do those or the ever popular "Goat Rodeo events" either, time better used training.
If we have dog to run we want to go to "The Show" and that is how Paul And Vicky roll as well!


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## JAM

CDN_Cocker said:


> Hey guys just a couple quick questions. I have always thrown retrieves for Jake myself and many times he loses it and has to hunt the area for it (which he has become really good at). However, I employed the girlfriend today to throw a couple for him instead. She stood down field from us and threw the ball out and slightly towards us while I held Jake back. We did three total but same problem - doesn't watch the ball just where he sees the first bounce and then over runs it, under runs it or takes a funky line. He always finds it cuz he starts hunting but I want him to start watching the ball and marking. Will this come with time or should I be doing something different?


I'm a novice so take this with a grain of salt... 

In my limited experience, my advice is this: 

First, IMO he's awfully young to be worrying about his marking abilities. It'll come.

If he's having difficulty, make it easier. You want to boost his confidence. NEVER let him fail a retrieve. By that I mean if he's having trouble finding the mark and he's searched for a while looking like he's not going to come up with it, drop a bumper in when he's not looking just to be sure he "finds" it. Of course, let him try before you do that.

DO NOT BORE HIM WITH TOO MANY RETRIEVES! Been there. Done that. 

I hope some more knowledgeable spanielers will chime in.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> My wife has me tagging along on cruise of the Mediterranean or I would be at the seminar as well. Dog trainers don't get any better than Paul McGaugh and his approach is likely very different than any I have experienced. Have fun.


Very True Gavan I think that Dauber is ready for a mind altering event,
spending a week Paul and Vicky



dauber said:


> Been lots of problems on those cruise ships lately:yikes:. Have fun.
> 
> Thank you all. It is good timing for young Zac to get his trainer more info and have someone with Paul's knowledge to get a look at him. We will have fun and I will try to do a recap when we get back.
> 
> Young Zac had a good morning run today...made a few real good finds on some bumpers I pre-seeded earlier this morning, and he ran with much energy. I'm not sure if he quite has* "IT" *as Hal says, but he has "quite a bit". Sure is a blast watching him develop.


 IF Paul wants to take him back to North Dakota/California you let him, that will be your 1st clue he has "IT".


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## JAM

Oops! Your post slipped in while I was typing, Hal. Good advice as usual.


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> IF Paul wants to take him back to North Dakota/California you let him, that will be your 1st clue he has "IT".


1+

Dunno if you have ever been out to Glencoe, Steve, but their kennels are immaculate. About the best I have ever seen and thats been a bunch. They have an assistant trainer too plus kennel help. And excellent vet supervision over everything. Superior training grounds too with native sharptails/ pheasants. Five star operation. They go to So Cal for the winter. Nice.

IF you wanted to send him, I wouldn't hesitate for one second.

NB


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## I'm with Brandy

Marking gets better as the dog gets more experience I would not be too worried about it now. Make sure you are constantly changing the distance to the mark. Some short some long. Never throw anything for your dog from his side. When I work alone I sit the dog and walk out and throw the marks. Then I walk back to the dog and send. If your dog is not steady at the line then you will have to use another person. 

The fact that your dog stays out there and hunts is great!. I see to many dogs that run out make one pass and then give up. 

I hope that some of these marks are in water.

Keep these rules in mind for marks.

Easy to see, hard to get to, easy to find. 

Even a mowed soccer field works great with young pups.

If your dog starts giving up on marks then make sure you pepper the ground with additional bumpers so that he is rewarded and does not come back empty handed.


Jam, is right about the confidence. Imagine confidence as a currency. Your dog has to build up a savings account of confidence later on you will give your dog difficult task and you will spend some of that confidence but you never want to spend it all at once. Every time you spend a little you have to earn it back. Some dogs have a larger savings account than others so you have to learn over time how much your dog can save and how much you can spend at a time and how long it takes to build it back up. If your helper throws a mark and your dog starts to break down on the retrieve have them toss a helper bumper. Your teaching not testing.

Dauber,

I heard from Christine the other day. I told her I could not make the seminar she indicated to me she though I would like how Paul trains kind of bummed I am missing it. Have fun and make sure you get some of those quail eggs for lunch at Christine's.


Warning retriever related info spaniel people hide your eyes.

Hal,



> Concerning the Retriever attending a flushing dog hunt test I DO NOT REALLY CARE! Those individuals are more than likely going to be marginal dogs that are having a hard time meeting the standards set by the retriever community anyway. In other words it will be come a fun thing to do until the standards become to difficult. *****s and Giggles right thats all it is.


I don't think statement is necessarily true. I have talked to many retriever people most have no desire to run the spaniel test and some who think it might be fun because they do a lot of upland hunting. Some of these dogs already have their AKC master titles and even some derby placements.

I have a friend that owns flat coated retrievers and she has Hunt test titles, trial placements, obedience titles, and show ring titles, on her two dogs in fact one of them took a 1st and 5th place in breed at Westminster this years. She thinks about running the spaniel test I know her dog Jack would smack the master test. I helped train him in the upland field.

At an AKC retriever event you will see labs, flat coated, Goldens, Chessies, Curley coat and other breeds running those test and field trials. 

Spaniels have different trials for the different breeds. And the hunt test are not open to as many different breeds as the retriever test are.

Go to WI and you will find more spaniel clubs and many more events than you find in MI.

I just got back from a visit to MN with Terry Sworsky he has already run a couple of spaniel field trials this year with his dog Max. Some states just have more going on with spaniels than MI.

You also must note Rick that the retriever test or trials are not altered based on breed specific traits. All retrievers are required to perform the test or trial just like any other breed that shows up for that venue. 

One other thing no one really has talked about is the Spaniel hunt test requirement to be steady to flush and shot. I think you would both agree that many retriever people don't care to have a dog that is steady to flush and don't want to put in the effort to train for it.

Rick you should have stayed for the final three series at the super singles it was a real race. Brandy and I made it to the top 8 out of the 30+ dogs. The last mark was brutal only two dogs really saw the mark. Andrews dog and Ron Crawford's dog. The other 6 dogs including Bo (the winner), you could tell never saw the mark even though they ran out. The tree line washed out the bumper when it was in the air. Brandy made it about half way out to the mark and looked left as she crossed the line to one of the earlier marks and remembered the picture and made a hard left and went to the fall of the old mark. Several dogs did the same thing. I was happy with how she did. She may not have been the fastest runner but she front footed the marks in the first four series.


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## Jeffrey Towler

Thanks Mike.

My shortcomings as a trainer , really held Hank back. Large regrets on my part for not knowing.


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## CDN_Cocker

Yes he does some water marks which he is great at. Just doesn't seem to focus as well on land. I'm sure it'll come with age and experience  he's a smart lil bugger
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jeffrey Towler

gundogguy said:


> Hank looks like he is getting ready to get it on! If there ever was dog that should been with a Circuit Pro and campaigned it was.. Hank!
> Hank with Ken Willis or Gary Wilson or Mike Wallace, or Ben Martin, would have proven to be an unstoppable force!


 Thanks Hal. I wish I would have had more knowledge back then. John S. once told me that Hank was a "throwback dog", I was offended, and asked him what he meant by that. John S. said he meant that Hank was like the top Springers that were running in the 1940's. Hank produced two very nice pups. I hope not to repeat my mistakes of the past. That is why Hanks pup, Jack, is with Gary Wilson.
I watched your pup at a training session with George Wilson's group. Very Very nice pup.


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> _One other thing no one really has talked about is the Spaniel hunt test requirement to be steady to flush and shot. I think you would both agree that many retriever people don't care to have a dog that is steady to flush and don't want to put in the effort to train for it._
> 
> Rick you should have stayed for the final three series at the super singles it was a real race. Brandy and I made it to the top 8 out of the 30+ dogs. The last mark was brutal only two dogs really saw the mark. Andrews dog and Ron Crawford's dog. The other 6 dogs including Bo (the winner), you could tell never saw the mark even though they ran out. The tree line washed out the bumper when it was in the air. Brandy made it about half way out to the mark and looked left as she crossed the line to one of the earlier marks and remembered the picture and made a hard left and went to the fall of the old mark. Several dogs did the same thing. I was happy with how she did. She may not have been the fastest runner but she front footed the marks in the first four series.


No problem Doug! We are talking about the Spaniel hunt test Iam very well aware of the Wisconsin situation I trained in Wisc for 5-6 yrs at least 6-7 spaniel clubs offering 10-12 events that just the way it goes. Michigan has 5 spaniel clubs that offer 2 hunt tests and 3 trials

The italicized statement was exactly what i was referring to.It is the old investment vs return for folks when it comes to steadying if it is not needed in every day it hardly makes sense to go thru the process just for a Flushing dog test. It is a process that if it is not finished can cause some issues.

I think that the bottom line on participation will be whether or not Retriever clubs will offer the flushing dog test, that is where the real growth lies if growth is the goal for expanding the number of non- spaniel breeds eligible to test.

Do you think that Retriever clubs will go thru the process of getting a license to hold Upland Flushing dog tests???????

Thanks for the update on the Super single I kind of wondered how that ended. Nice to hear about Brandy's work.


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## gundogguy

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Thanks Hal. I wish I would have had more knowledge back then. John S. once told me that Hank was a "throwback dog", I was offended, and asked him what he meant by that. *John S.* said he meant that Hank was like the top Springers that were running in the 1940's. Hank produced two very nice pups. I hope not to repeat my mistakes of the past. That is why Hanks pup, Jack, is with Gary Wilson.
> I watched your pup at a training session with George Wilson's group. Very Very nice pup.



Is John S kiba that old did he see dogs run in 1940's....:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Nancy trains with the Great lakes guys on Sundays I had heard you had been over there. I usually try to take Sundays off.
Yes Zeta doing well steadying process going very well, waiting patiently for the bird to fall


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## Gavan

what's already been said about your "marking" issue but in a little different way. You have to throw an object the pup really wants. Tease him and then throw it. If he isn't interested enough to be teased then you need a different object or you need to quit for a while.
Another possibility is that the dog is feeling some pressure and that makes the game no fun so he decides to opt out and play a different game. He knows where the object is but he hunts around and sniffs like he's looking for something else. He's hoping you just get frustrated and give up.
Change objects and change locations. Change cover types. Keep it positive and don't nag him with your voice. Make bringing you the object a positive experience. I truly doubt that your pup is incapable of marking a thrown object. Good luck.


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## Jeffrey Towler

gundogguy said:


> Is John S kiba that old did he see dogs run in 1940's....:lol::lol::lol::lol:
> 
> Nancy trains with the Great lakes guys on Sundays I had heard you had been over there. I usually try to take Sundays off.
> Yes Zeta doing well steadying process going very well, waiting patiently for the bird to fall


Skiba might be that old. Just kidding:lol: that's a great group of spaniel people at Great Lakes. I ran into some health issues with kidney stones, set me back a little bit.Otherwise I would still be heading over there. I am doing a lot better now.


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## Jeffrey Towler




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## JackieTreeHorn

Hope that's not a no wake zone! Cool shot.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> what's already been said about your "marking" issue but in a little different way. You have to throw an object the pup really wants. Tease him and then throw it. If he isn't interested enough to be teased then you need a different object or you need to quit for a while.
> Another possibility is that the dog is feeling some pressure and that makes the game no fun so he decides to opt out and play a different game. He knows where the object is but he hunts around and sniffs like he's looking for something else. He's hoping you just get frustrated and give up.
> Change objects and change locations. Change cover types. Keep it positive and don't nag him with your voice. Make bringing you the object a positive experience. I truly doubt that your pup is incapable of marking a thrown object. Good luck.


Well said Gavan, CDN_cocker your pup is very young and it is very easy to overwhelm a youngster. I was and still am constantly evaluating Zac on a daily basis if he is taking the new tasks eagerly or if it is causing too much pressure. Also always leave him wanting to retrieve more, beware of tossing that extra retrieve, you are much better tossing one too few. Good luck.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> IF Paul wants to take him back to North Dakota/California you let him, that will be your 1st clue he has "IT".


I have a feeling that "IT" to me is a much lower level than "IT" is to Paul M.


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## brucew63

gundogguy said:


> No problem Doug! We are talking about the Spaniel hunt test Iam very well aware of the Wisconsin situation I trained in Wisc for 5-6 yrs at least 6-7 spaniel clubs offering 10-12 events that just the way it goes. Michigan has 5 spaniel clubs that offer 2 hunt tests and 3 trials


Now that the Minnesota Hunting Spaniel Association has begun holding their tests and trials in Wisconsin, we've got 3 weekends (6 tests) in May, one weekend each in June, July, August and October, and two weekends in September for 9 weekends, 18 tests.



> The italicized statement was exactly what i was referring to. It is the old investment vs return for folks when it comes to steadying if it is not needed in every day it hardly makes sense to go thru the process just for a Flushing dog test. It is a process that if it is not finished can cause some issues.


 Or perhaps it's fair to opine that many/most don't know they might need it in every day hunting? For me, personally, the majority of the times my dogs are commanded to sit when a bird takes wing, and leave only when I say so; but pheasants in tall, thick cover is another circumstance, and grouse are most often steady to wing and shot but usually released before the fall.



> I think that the bottom line on participation will be whether or not Retriever clubs will offer the flushing dog test, that is where the real growth lies if growth is the goal for expanding the number of non- spaniel breeds eligible to test.
> 
> Do you think that Retriever clubs will go thru the process of getting a license to hold Upland Flushing dog tests???????


My personal belief is that retriever clubs won't offer the flushing dog test, and for the most part, the Labs you'll see at Spaniel tests will be those who aren't committed to hard-core retriever work and retriever testing.


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## Jeffrey Towler

JackieTreeHorn said:


> Hope that's not a no wake zone! Cool shot.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thank you


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## CDN_Cocker

Thanks Gavan and dauber. I always limit his retrieves and he is good to come right back with him. I'm sure the marking will get better, today was his first time like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gundogguy

brucew63 said:


> Now that the Minnesota Hunting Spaniel Association has begun holding their tests and trials in Wisconsin, we've got 3 weekends (6 tests) in May, one weekend each in June, July, August and October, and two weekends in September for 9 weekends, 18 tests.
> 
> Or perhaps it's fair to opine that many/most don't know they might need it in every day hunting? For me, personally, the majority of the times my dogs are commanded to sit when a bird takes wing, and leave only when I say so; but pheasants in tall, thick cover is another circumstance, and grouse are most often steady to wing and shot but usually released before the fall.
> 
> My personal belief is that retriever clubs won't offer the flushing dog test, and for the most part, the Labs you'll see at Spaniel tests will be those who aren't committed to hard-core retriever work and retriever testing.


+1 That sounds reasonable!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I have a feeling that "IT" to me is a much lower level than "IT" is to Paul M.


Not to worry! Just relax and look for the *one* idea that Paul will share that will help you move your dog to the next level. Do not try to take in every thing that is offered you will go into information overload!


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## michgundog

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Thanks Mike.
> 
> My shortcomings as a trainer , really held Hank back. Large regrets on my part for not knowing.


Your a great trainer, don't be hard on yourself. I'm sure hank made you the trainer you are today. You did a good job with Meagan and Rosie. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Jeffrey Towler

michgundog said:


> Your a great trainer, don't be hard on yourself. I'm sure hank made you the trainer you are today. You did a good job with Meagan and Rosie.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 Thanks Mike
I try to learn as much as I can. One thing for sure, it comes down to reading the individual dog and adjusting training to get the most out of each dog.
Take for example Jill, I am force fetching her now. She picked it up faster than any dog I have ever FF.Is it because I know more, or she is just easy to train?I try to be around dog trainers who I feel know alot more than me.Hopefully some of there knowledge will rub off on me.


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## CDN_Cocker

Tried that simple marking drill again yesterday and his focus was much better, must have just been having an off-day. However the last couple of times out retrieving he does not run right back in to me and will run around me or veer off. I run away from him so he has to follow but takes a lot to get him to come in. I don't really want to put him on a check cord, he's only 4 months old. I think I'm going to back off on retrieves for a week or 2 and see if that helps. I always limit them and leave him jazzed up wanting more. Don't know where its coming from but he's starting doing it more frequently so I'm going to leave the retrieving for a bit I think. Just get him out for walks and playing in cover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Tried that simple marking drill again yesterday and his focus was much better, must have just been having an off-day. However the last couple of times out retrieving he does not run right back in to me and will run around me or veer off. I run away from him so he has to follow but takes a lot to get him to come in. I don't really want to put him on a check cord, he's only 4 months old. I think I'm going to back off on retrieves for a week or 2 and see if that helps. I always limit them and leave him jazzed up wanting more. Don't know where its coming from but he's starting doing it more frequently so I'm going to leave the retrieving for a bit I think. Just get him out for walks and playing in cover.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you have a corridor such as a hallway in your house where you can work on some play retrieves. At 4 mos I wouldn't get to concerned about marking. 


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## CDN_Cocker

Yeah I started in the hallway. Think I'll be going back to it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> Yeah I started in the hallway. Think I'll be going back to it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Especially with a pup that young, whenever a problem crops up stop and think what are the newest things you have introduced? (such as lengthening the toss, moved outside, move from the hallway, moved off from using place board etc.) I bet a place board would make a good "bridge" from the hallway to outside. http://glencoekennels.net/Training/Introduction to Box Training.html

It also will be a great "bridge" to line steady and steady to flush later. Plus it is always a tool available if you have to back up a step (like the hallway now).

Keep us posted.


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## dauber

YooperGuy has made it back home. The short version of a long story is he has a nasty case of pneumonia. He still isn't out of the woods yet and has a couple procedures next week. 

Keep it on the mend YG!


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## Steelheadfred

Lot's of openings in this trial!

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=465043


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## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Lot's of openings in this trial!
> 
> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=465043



Who are the flushing dog stake judges? "A "cheese champion" is a term I've heard used among field trial aficionados."

I have yet to see to many of the spanielites here training their dogs like the pointing dogs.
Best of luck with those openings kinda like yesterday's sworay, huh.


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## GSP Gal

Hal,

As trial chair, I would love to see spaniels come out and play. I love all dogs, but do love to see a flusher work efficiently and put game up for the gunner. 

We will be having a few observers at this trial, and we could use a few spaniels and/or other flushers to show how it is done. 

Keep in mind at the end of the day, it is still a fundraiser, there are friends running against friends, and no National titles to go on paper behind a dogs name, but everyone get to watch and enjoy. 

Hope to see you there with a spaniel.


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## dauber

GSP Gal said:


> Hal,
> 
> As trial chair, I would love to see spaniels come out and play. I love all dogs, but do love to see a flusher work efficiently and put game up for the gunner.
> 
> We will be having a few observers at this trial, and we could use a few spaniels and/or other flushers to show how it is done.
> 
> Keep in mind at the end of the day, it is still a fundraiser, there are friends running against friends, and no National titles to go on paper behind a dogs name, but everyone get to watch and enjoy.
> 
> Hope to see you there with a spaniel.


 
Good luck with raising the funds, they go to good things in Michigan's young Forest habitats.

The food is great at the one's I've attended and it is a good place to talk about young forest habitats and management.

Unfortunately they are not a very good venue for flushing spaniels to do their efficient work in putting birds up to the gun. They are great for pointing dog people, and flushing people who like to work their flushers like pointers. But not good for those of us who like to work our spaniels in traditional spaniel fashion.

And before anyone tosses out the old "well just get involved and help" statement...I have spent considerable amounts of my time in the past on this. 

So good luck with the event hope you get lots of entries.


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## dauber

Basil Hayden's said:


> Did your mommy take your pacifier away from you too early? I'm sure you have you found yourself a suitable phallic, or the real thing, as a replacement because your comment sure sucks.
> 
> Discouraging folks from running in an RGS trial....real nice.
> 
> Running down the event....real nice.
> 
> Implying the judges won't be qualified....real nice.
> 
> What is your problem? Are you that afraid to go head to head against amateur competition? I thought you were all about throw down birds. Here's your chance to encourage participation, not run it down. Classy.
> 
> Oh, and you misspelled soirée.


Lapfrog, Glenmorangie, Basil, and whoever you will be next, why don't you entertain the CDR folks.


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## Basil Hayden's

dauber said:


> Lapfrog, Glenmorangie, Basil, and whoever you will be next, why don't you entertain the CDR folks.



Ooooh. I think I got just got the answer to the question in my first paragraph!


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## gundogguy

GSP Gal said:


> Hal,
> 
> As trial chair, I would love to see spaniels come out and play. I love all dogs, but do love to see a flusher work efficiently and put game up for the gunner.
> 
> We will be having a few observers at this trial, and we could use a few spaniels and/or other flushers to show how it is done.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind at the end of the day, it is still a fundraiser, there are friends running against friends, and no National titles to go on paper behind a dogs name, but everyone get to watch and enjoy.
> 
> Hope to see you there with a spaniel.


GSP Gal
Having been trial chair for many spaniel events and all breed shoot outs I understand your need for entry's and participants, I truly do!

Your event is very well suited for the pointing dog culture and You seem to draw a fair number of dogs for that particular stake.

Having seen video and speaking with a number of forum members,incidentally spoke with Doug Cherry and his wife yesterday at the KVally HRC Test, in Jones Mi..
I know I'm convinced the Flushing dog format, in RGS funtrial leaves a lot to be desired for the flushing spaniel community
Personally the format being used counter intuitive to the way spaniels are trained the world over. For those folks that come to observe and want to see flusher do their thing, it is really the wrong format and they the observers could only come to a faulty conclusion about spaniels and flushing dogs in general. And it make very little sense to re-tool my dogs to run like a pointing breed.

Concerning the fund raising aspect. having spent some 20yrs in the shooting preserve industry gave me ample opportunty to raise funds DU PF RGS QU having raise $1000 and $1000 I really donot feel the need to contribute and more Time and or Tide. Running banquets giving away hunts, training and sliding more prints than I care to admit under the bed, that whole culture just does not have that same old pizazz you know what mean
In closing thank-you for the invitation and best of fortunes with your event!


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## Steelheadfred

Find em, flush em, retrieve em, go through clean on commands, don't point, show birdiness, don't drop retrieves, work the ground with what ever pattern suits your dogs ability to best find em, flush em, retrieve em.


Yesterday, a quartering pattern was most effective. Don't over think it.

These are General Guidelines written by Trial Chair Brad Utrup



Safety

Please keep this in mind throughout the day &#8211; Please Practice Safe Gun Handling.

Do not hesitate to call a &#8220;safety&#8221; if the bird flushers towards the gallery, judges, the other handler or a dog. Listen for the judges, who will call &#8220;safety&#8221; if the shot is not safe.



Running

Most trials run dogs in braces (two at a time) on the same course.

Please be respectful of the other dog and handler.



You may only shoot (2) birds

o Your dog is only judged on two bird contacts

o The judges may direct you to continue hunting for a 3rd bird if they did not have adequate opportunity to judge retrieving (due to a safety being called)

o A missed bird is not a safety (it will hurt your dog&#8217;s chances if you miss)

o There is no incentive to rush through the course in a race to find all the birds. Again, please show respect for your brace mate.

Please collar/leash your dog if you think it may interfere with a bracemate&#8217;s retrieve



Judging

The judges will evaluate entries in the following categories:



Response to Handler (Obedience)

The dog needs to respond enthusiastically and quickly to the handlers commands.



Ground Coverage

The dog should cover ground efficiently and with purpose.

It should utilize the best hunting pattern for the conditions presented and search out likely places where gamebirds inhabit.



Bird Finds

Pointing dogs should locate birds from an appropriate distance and remain staunch on point.

Flushing dogs should accurately locate the bird and aggressively put it in the air.

Dogs do not need to remain steady after the bird takes flight, or the shot. There is no reward for steadiness after the shot. Handlers should do everything in their power to avoid brace mate interference.



Retrieves

The dog should locate the downed bird quickly and accurately.

The dog should return the bird immediately to the handler and release the bird cleanly.

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## Basil Hayden's

I don't think I've ever come across two more eloquently written assertions to hide behind the words "I'M SCARED" as written above. WHAT PISH!

A bird boy plants 4 chuckar in an open field. How on earth is this unfair to a spaniel trained to spaniel standards? For Pete's sake, what on earth would one do on a wild bird hunt if an RGS trial is too much to handle? If the spaniel training method is a superior training method, the RGS trials are THE PERFECT venue to prove that point. I'd really like to see a spaniel do what he is trained to do. I would like to see for myself which method works best to stop the bickering.

YOU SCARED, BRO.


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## dauber

Basil Hayden's said:


> I don't think I've ever come across two more eloquently written assertions to hide behind the words "I'M SCARED" as written above. WHAT PISH!
> 
> A bird boy plants 4 chuckar in an open field. How on earth is this unfair to a spaniel trained to spaniel standards? For Pete's sake, what on earth would one do on a wild bird hunt if an RGS trial is too much to handle? If the spaniel training method is a superior training method, the RGS trials are THE PERFECT venue to prove that point. I'd really like to see a spaniel do what he is trained to do. I would like to see for myself which method works best to stop the bickering.
> 
> YOU SCARED, BRO.


There are quite few spaniel venues for you to observe spaniel methods. I train almost daily and will even travel to help others or show what little I know, and have even offered to come below the bridge to help a "friend" of yours with their spaniel. 

We don't have much bickering on TSC2 unless you or SHF come looking for some. I don't know how else we can say do what you like and have fun! If the Fun Trial works it should show in the entries, I believe it does in the pointing dogs. Again, great, good luck, hope many funds are raised. Seems though that a couple of yous think they are "Competitive Trials"???

I have run RGS "Fun Trial" Basil, Lapfrog, Glennmorangie. I choose not to again. I try to not complain publicly about it because I love RGS and spend lots of my time and money on it. Can you maybe respect my decision? 

Thank you.
Steve Rodock


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## GSP Gal

My deepest apologies. All I wanted to do is extend an invitation to the spaniel people to come play and show off your dog. 

I don't know what kind a of field a spaniel has to have, I assumed, somewhat incorrectly, that a hunting preserve would have an adequate field as my impression was that Hal uses a preserve to run his dogs in. The only spaniels I have really seen run in RGS is Natty Bumpos and Doug Cherrys both of which I like and admire. 

I was hoping to learn more about spaniels in the process, but apparently this group is not willing to go beyond the keyboard in showcasing their breed.

I am trying not to take Hal's slings as a shot at RGS, perhaps ill feeling towards others, but now I know why the spaniel corner is not worth my time reading. 

Good day to you all, and good luck.


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## gundogguy

For those that are developing a Spaniel the video is from a training session May 4th. There are two guns walking the wings with a handler in the middle 
If we were running brace the bracemate would be running the ground to left of the left wing gun. In this particular vid we are running north, if we were running a brace we would be run west in this particular training field just do to its width.
In this training session brace is not a concern, the handler is looking for a little more responsiveness out of his dog which have been trained Amish style, the dog is running as we say "naked"
The handler does not test or trial he hunts grouse and woodcock and few preserve birds.

The guns are relatively new to training they have done some hunting out west and they both have dogs in the training class..Labradors. Neither have ever steady a dog to wing and shot but they will be and that is why they are gunning to learn how to shoot over a steady.


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## brucew63

GSP Gal said:


> My deepest apologies. All I wanted to do is extend an invitation to the spaniel people to come play and show off your dog.
> 
> I was hoping to learn more about spaniels in the process, but apparently this group is not willing to go beyond the keyboard in showcasing their breed.


I can't say that everyone shares the opinions of those who responded. I'd hope there's room for differences.

I'm new here, still finding my way. "Disconcerting" comes to mind.


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## Moderator

The name calling, insulting and bricking back-n-forth is DONE ! 

We are talking about training dogs here folks.


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## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> GSP Gal
> Having been trial chair for many spaniel events and all breed shoot outs I understand your need for entry's and participants, I truly do!
> 
> Your event is very well suited for the pointing dog culture and You seem to draw a fair number of dogs for that particular stake.
> 
> Having seen video and speaking with a number of forum members,incidentally spoke with Doug Cherry and his wife yesterday at the KVally HRC Test, in Jones Mi..
> I know I'm convinced the Flushing dog format, in RGS funtrial leaves a lot to be desired for the flushing spaniel community
> Personally the format being used counter intuitive to the way spaniels are trained the world over. For those folks that come to observe and want to see flusher do their thing, it is really the wrong format and they the observers could only come to a faulty conclusion about spaniels and flushing dogs in general. And it make very little sense to re-tool my dogs to run like a pointing breed.
> 
> Concerning the fund raising aspect. having spent some 20yrs in the shooting preserve industry gave me ample opportunty to raise funds DU PF RGS QU having raise $1000 and $1000 I really donot feel the need to contribute and more Time and or Tide. Running banquets giving away hunts, training and sliding more prints than I care to admit under the bed, that whole culture just does not have that same old pizazz you know what mean
> In closing thank-you for the invitation and best of fortunes with your event!


Hal/steve I think Sandy was just putting it out there to try to increase participation. I know there are varied thoughts on the RGS trials and that is perfectly fine, and it is not the right fit for everyone. No they are not sanctioned trials but they are a good event that allows hunters to bring their dogs to an event that only asks of them to complete certain tasks that are all important when pursuing wild birds and support a good cause at the same time. At the end of the year trial the competition is stronger and many dogs on both sides are steady to Wing, shot and retrieve. 

I am not asking for any negative feedback but more so an honest answer as to why these trials are not fit for a spaniel? A dog that works a hard quartering pattern and is steady is not marked down in anyway. The fields are plenty large enough for each dog to work its area. It is just as you stated previously Hal......find em, flush em, retrieve em with manners. I think this is what many dogs on the flushing side have at the end of the year trial. These trials are for a good cause and fun events so please share your insight so that we have the view of what the spaniel culture needs/wants to have these be events that a hunting spaniel owner would want to enter. 


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## I'm with Brandy

Duece22 said:


> Hal/steve I think Sandy was just putting it out there to try to increase participation. I know there are varied thoughts on the RGS trials and that is perfectly fine, and it is not the right fit for everyone. No they are not sanctioned trials but they are a good event that allows hunters to bring their dogs to an event that only asks of them to complete certain tasks that are all important when pursuing wild birds and support a good cause at the same time. At the end of the year trial the competition is stronger and many dogs on both sides are steady to Wing, shot and retrieve.
> 
> I am not asking for any negative feedback but more so an honest answer as to why these trials are not fit for a spaniel? A dog that works a hard quartering pattern and is steady is not marked down in anyway. The fields are plenty large enough for each dog to work its area. It is just as you stated previously Hal......find em, flush em, retrieve em with manners. I think this is what many dogs on the flushing side have at the end of the year trial. These trials are for a good cause and fun events so please share your insight so that we have the view of what the spaniel culture needs/wants to have these be events that a hunting spaniel owner would want to enter.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


The money raising aside. This venue has been debated here before and any input has been ignored. There is still a safety issue when two flushing dogs are placed in the field and one handler tries to run out in front of the other to block their ability to safely shoot. 

Someone posted some video of that here before. I have seen it myself at the trial.

If you really want to compare flushers then either run them one at a time or run them in parallel courses. In the pointing class you expect the pointing dogs to be steady and to honor. Why don't you expect the flushers to be steady and to honor the other dogs flush? Why do pointing judges think a 170 yard break and chase by a flusher is a 175 yard mark? Why do pointing judges think a flusher 60 + yards out is a good thing?

Those are rhetorical questions I don't really care if you answer them or not.



If you post something you open the door for discussion. You may not always like the way that discussion goes. I don't like seeing name calling from anyone no matter what side of the discussion they are on. It does not impress me at all.

I have been a supporter of RGS but I have the right to disagree with how the trial is formatted and I have the right to post that opinion just like you have the right to post information about the trial. If people like the format then they will run it regardless of my opinion or anyone else's.


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## Steelheadfred

Doug, I agree with everything you said for the most part.

Two things. If you interfere with a bracemates work, steal a flush, steal a retrieve your not going to place, especially at the end of the year. Mike M. 
was on the unfortunate side of this in 11 @ gdoy. 

Two, range is personal preference, if a flusher is 60 yards out and busts a bird your not going to place, but if a flusher makes some big casts, finds some birds others missed but has a handler there to shoot those finds, well that's personal preference on the handlers part. The bird was flushed for the gun, be it through a whistle sit when the dog showed on scent, or through a Pattern that has dog and gunner coming together at the right time.

The best advice I can give anyone on either pointer or flusher side, is to evaluate your bracemate, adjust handling accordingly, but run your dog like you hunt.

I've been lucky to win three times, two of those wins, one with Skiba judging, my brace mate found both birds prior to my dog finding one. Last year Bailey found a bird before May, I sat May with a whistle, she watched Bailey finish a retrieve and away we went and found one. Baily found her second, same program sit and watch, May found her second and we were done.

As far as judges, at the end of the year, the judges I've won under were pointing dog breeders, accept Skiba, but Rich Hollister, Bruce Minard, Dave Terhaar and Vance Butler have all spent lots of time training, owning, working with flushing dogs. Bruce owned springers, as did Rich, they both owned and bred Labs, Vance is an all breed trainer, tester, trialer, Dave's partner owns lab, cocker, Springer, golden. All have hunted extensively over flushing dogs for grouse. They can slalom read the criteria and apply it, as could you Doug, as did Rodney when he judged.

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## I'm with Brandy

Hal,
Good to run into you at the HRC hunt test. I noticed you left while Brandy and I were running the water series. The rain didn't drive you away did it? My luck it would downpour while I ran the test. She did a great job on the Saturday water series. 

We did not get a pass on Sunday we passed the land part of the test. On water our second bird down did not hit the water like it was supposed to, it landed on a log no splash and difficult for the dog to see with the trees in the back ground. I know she heard it hit the log because she looked in that direction when it hit. She picked up the two outside birds. I had to handler her to the one on the log, I got her to it but I had to many cast refusals and we were dropped. Some things I could of done differently as a handler but its all a learning curve. She didn't care she had a great time.

At it again next weekend. We need two more passes for the Finished title.


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## Steelheadfred

Congrats Doug, getting it done on both sides of the fence

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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> For those that are developing a Spaniel the video is from a training session May 4th. There are two guns walking the wings with a handler in the middle
> If we were running brace the bracemate would be running the ground to left of the left wing gun. In this particular vid we are running north, if we were running a brace we would be run west in this particular training field just do to its width.
> In this training session brace is not a concern, the handler is looking for a little more responsiveness out of his dog which have been trained Amish style, the dog is running as we say "naked"
> The handler does not test or trial he hunts grouse and woodcock and few preserve birds.
> 
> The guns are relatively new to training they have done some hunting out west and they both have dogs in the training class..Labradors. Neither have ever steady a dog to wing and shot but they will be and that is why they are gunning to learn how to shoot over a steady.


I especially liked your discussion with the gunner. There is much to learn about gunning over steady dogs. We will have to get some video this summer with JAM and Bob running brace, I love watching Stormy and Chinook run. I think we will need one of those strap on cams though.


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## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Hal,
> Good to run into you at the HRC hunt test. I noticed you left while Brandy and I were running the water series. The rain didn't drive you away did it? My luck it would downpour while I ran the test. She did a great job on the Saturday water series.
> 
> We did not get a pass on Sunday we passed the land part of the test. On water our second bird down did not hit the water like it was supposed to, it landed on a log no splash and difficult for the dog to see with the trees in the back ground. I know she heard it hit the log because she looked in that direction when it hit. She picked up the two outside birds. I had to handler her to the one on the log, I got her to it but I had to many cast refusals and we were dropped. Some things I could of done differently as a handler but its all a learning curve. She didn't care she had a great time.
> 
> At it again next weekend. We need two more passes for the Finished title.


Congrats on the pass Brandy and Doug. Get em next weekend.


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## I'm with Brandy

GSP Gal said:


> My deepest apologies. All I wanted to do is extend an invitation to the spaniel people to come play and show off your dog.
> 
> I don't know what kind a of field a spaniel has to have, I assumed, somewhat incorrectly, that a hunting preserve would have an adequate field as my impression was that Hal uses a preserve to run his dogs in. The only spaniels I have really seen run in RGS is Natty Bumpos and Doug Cherrys both of which I like and admire.
> 
> I was hoping to learn more about spaniels in the process, but apparently this group is not willing to go beyond the keyboard in showcasing their breed.
> 
> I am trying not to take Hal's slings as a shot at RGS, perhaps ill feeling towards others, but now I know why the spaniel corner is not worth my time reading.
> 
> Good day to you all, and good luck.


Brandy and I had a great time running under you and David as our judges. 

I don't see any reason to apologize for posting information about the event. 

There are some strong opinions and as you can see. There are folks that think pointing dogs should only be run one way and that is the right way any other way is wrong. Same with flusher folks. Its unfortunate that the discussion turns to name calling.


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## I'm with Brandy

Steelheadfred said:


> Doug, I agree with everything you said for the most part.
> 
> Two things. If you interfere with a bracemates work, steal a flush, steal a retrieve your not going to place, especially at the end of the year. Mike M.
> was on the unfortunate side of this in 11 @ gdoy.
> 
> Two, range is personal preference, if a flusher is 60 yards out and busts a bird your not going to place, but if a flusher makes some big casts, finds some birds others missed but has a handler there to shoot those finds, well that's personal preference on the handlers part. The bird was flushed for the gun, be it through a whistle sit when the dog showed on scent, or through a Pattern that has dog and gunner coming together at the right time.
> 
> The best advice I can give anyone on either pointer or flusher side, is to evaluate your bracemate, adjust handling accordingly, but run your dog like you hunt.
> 
> I've been lucky to win three times, two of those wins, one with Skiba judging, my brace mate found both birds prior to my dog finding one. Last year Bailey found a bird before May, I sat May with a whistle, she watched Bailey finish a retrieve and away we went and found one. Baily found her second, same program sit and watch, May found her second and we were done.
> 
> As far as judges, at the end of the year, the judges I've won under were pointing dog breeders, accept Skiba, but Rich Hollister, Bruce Minard, Dave Terhaar and Vance Butler have all spent lots of time training, owning, working with flushing dogs. Bruce owned springers, as did Rich, they both owned and bred Labs, Vance is an all breed trainer, tester, trialer, Dave's partner owns lab, cocker, Springer, golden. All have hunted extensively over flushing dogs for grouse. They can slalom read the criteria and apply it, as could you Doug, as did Rodney when he judged.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Fritz, I guess I would have to raise the question if you run them like you hunt them, would a guy that likes his pointer to flash point going to place in the trial? Is a guy that likes is flusher to flash point place in the trial. Why even make them honor in pointing?

I have to question why a judge would think a 170 yard chase is a mark.
Or that it was a 170 yard retrieve. It would be 170 yard chase with the mark distance being the distance between the dog and the bird when the bird hit the ground. Or the comment that they liked big running flushers more than ones that worked close. I have just heard comments that make me question how they are judging flushing. Maybe they just miss spoke. 

Like I said if people like the venue they will come regardless of the opinions stated here.


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## I'm with Brandy

Thanks for the responses to Brandy and I getting another leg of her Finished retriever title. I like to think we are being a good representative for the springs at the HRC hunt test. She worked her little butt off today. Swam over every log to her marks never went around any logs. I was proud of her.


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## Duece22

I'm with Brandy said:


> Fritz, I guess I would have to raise the question if you run them like you hunt them, would a guy that likes his pointer to flash point going to place in the trial? Is a guy that likes is flusher to flash point place in the trial. Why even make them honor in pointing?
> 
> I have to question why a judge would think a 170 yard chase is a mark.
> Or that it was a 170 yard retrieve. It would be 170 yard chase with the mark distance being the distance between the dog and the bird when the bird hit the ground. Or the comment that they liked big running flushers more than ones that worked close. I have just heard comments that make me question how they are judging flushing. Maybe they just miss spoke.
> 
> Like I said if people like the venue they will come regardless of the opinions stated here.


Doug, I think recently since we have introduced the score sheets and have been more selective with judges some of these issues have been resolved. In the case of our trial I go over with the judges some of the situations that might arise like the unhit bird and a long retrieve/chase and how to score/handle that situation. I also see very few braces getting separated to the distances that cause safety issues. It is up to the judges to manage the braces in a safe consistent level while maintaining safety and allowing the dog and hunter to work at their comfortable pace (being asked to slow down or hold up) 

With all that being said I still don't see how it is a bad place for a well trained spaniel to come show off their stuff. 

Congrats on the pass. Brandy does a nice job on both the retriever stuff and upland stuff. 


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Thanks for the responses to Brandy and I getting another leg of her Finished retriever title. I like to think we are being a good representative for the springs at the HRC hunt test. She worked her little butt off today. Swam over every log to her marks never went around any logs. I was proud of her.



Nice to see you saturday and to meet Mike Fredricks. No it was not the rain, that forced me to leave it was my schedule, it was justa matter of being in two places at one time. if Brandy's run had been 1/2 hour earlier I would have been able to see her complete the water test.
Best of luck with the upcoming excitement!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I especially liked your discussion with the gunner. There is much to learn about gunning over steady dogs. We will have to get some video this summer with JAM and Bob running brace, I love watching Stormy and Chinook run. I think we will need one of those strap on cams though.


Right now during this time year video production is at it's best. Cover is beginning to become adequate for substantiate training and the Vid cam can still get the action of dog handler guns and birds. when the cover gets to be good snarly spaniel cover it is diffcult to get images that are instructive or informative..
I will also try to video as much I can until the cover is thigh high. Hope yous can do the same up north.
Hie-on!


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## NATTY BUMPO

I'm with Brandy said:


> The money raising aside. This venue has been debated here before and any input has been ignored. There is still a safety issue when two flushing dogs are placed in the field and one handler tries to run out in front of the other to block their ability to safely shoot.
> 
> Someone posted some video of that here before. I have seen it myself at the trial.
> 
> If you really want to compare flushers then either run them one at a time or run them in parallel courses. In the pointing class you expect the pointing dogs to be steady and to honor. Why don't you expect the flushers to be steady and to honor the other dogs flush? Why do pointing judges think a 170 yard break and chase by a flusher is a 175 yard mark? Why do pointing judges think a flusher 60 + yards out is a good thing?
> 
> Those are rhetorical questions I don't really care if you answer them or not.
> 
> 
> 
> If you post something you open the door for discussion. You may not always like the way that discussion goes. I don't like seeing name calling from anyone no matter what side of the discussion they are on. It does not impress me at all.
> 
> I have been a supporter of RGS but I have the right to disagree with how the trial is formatted and I have the right to post that opinion just like you have the right to post information about the trial. If people like the format then they will run it regardless of my opinion or anyone else's.


Very well said, Doug. 

We've had this very same discussion several times before, on The Spaniel Corner I and now here again. I'll repeat just one example, and there are many:

When a dog "Takes a Line" at the starting point, runs 150 yards straight down the course, flushed two chukar out, handler gets him back and then proceeds to cut off the other guy and his dog for the rest of the time on that course, actually running after his dog, with a loaded shotgun, and then that same dog wins the stake, there's something wrong. Big Time. That dog should have been DQed at the very start. EVERYBODY saw it.

I have seen egregious/flagrant gun safety violations and examples of poor sportsmanship against fellow handlers/dogs at the RGS fun runs. I'm not going to waste the bandwidth going back over old ground. And I'm not going to risk my personal safety or my dogs safety by going near another one, ever again.

I have been a supporter of RGS for many years. There are many opportunities to support RGS without endangering life and limb.

NB


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## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> She did a great job on the Saturday water series.


Congrats Brandy & Doug! Awesome!


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## Jeffrey Towler

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Very well said, Doug.
> 
> We've had this very same discussion several times before, on The Spaniel Corner I and now here again. I'll repeat just one example, and there are many:
> 
> When a dog "Takes a Line" at the starting point, runs 150 yards straight down the course, flushed two chukar out, handler gets him back and then proceeds to cut off the other guy and his dog for the rest of the time on that course, actually running after his dog, with a loaded shotgun, and then that same dog wins the stake, there's something wrong. Big Time. That dog should have been DQed at the very start. EVERYBODY saw it.
> 
> I have seen egregious/flagrant gun safety violations and examples of poor sportsmanship against fellow handlers/dogs at the RGS fun runs. I'm not going to waste the bandwidth going back over old ground. And I'm not going to risk my personal safety or my dogs safety by going near another one, ever again.
> 
> I have been a supporter of RGS for many years. There are many opportunities to support RGS without endangering life and limb.
> 
> NB


 Thankyou for posting this.I had thought about running one of these events. After reading this, I will make sure that I stay away from these events.

Regards
JT


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## gundogguy

with one my Springer shooting dogs Quesa Dei.

Proofing steadiness, marking and a nice delivery, "running naked"






Just an absolutely gorgeous morning!

Hie-on!


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## Jeffrey Towler

Nice video Hal


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## RecurveRx

How common are traps at spaniel trials/tests?


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## michgundog

RecurveRx said:


> How common are traps at spaniel trials/tests?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Very common on spring chuckars. At a hunt test they will do a throw and a shot to keep the test rolling. At field trial where pheasants are its less likely to happen. Our clubs planters have a lot of training, so our trap rates at our hunt test and trial are very low. Good planters and guns are key; either one being bad will make or break future events. 


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## CDN_Cocker

What does "naked" or "Amish style" mean?


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## yooperguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> What does "naked" or "Amish style" mean?


Can't speak from experience but I think it means "without a collar."

Not sure if that's ANY collar or e-collar or what. 

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## CDN_Cocker

I didn't think spanielers used collars?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## yooperguy

I could be way off base... Really don't know. 

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## gundogguy

RecurveRx said:


> How common are traps at spaniel trials/tests?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


+1 on Michgundog post. Spring chukars are a real pain for the spring test crowd. Wet conditions can really snarl the process up.
All-age trials for Springers are nearly always run on pheasants spring or fall. Every once in while a club will try to hold AA trial on chukars they quickly learn it is not the way to go. Canadian trials in the spring by Canadian law have to use chukars in the spring...Government trials...Haw! The old adage holds true you cannot win a trial catching birds!! Tests... you can probable pass a test catching birds



michgundog said:


> Very common on spring chuckars. At a hunt test they will do a throw and a shot to keep the test rolling. At field trial where pheasants are its less likely yo happen. Our clubs planters have a lot of training, so our trap rates at our hunt test and trial are very low. Good planters and guns are key; either one being bad will make or break future events.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire






CDN_Cocker said:


> What does "naked" or "Amish style" mean?


 Naked = no collar at all Amish style= No electric training collar



CDN_Cocker said:


> I didn't think spanielers used collars?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


E-collar use by many spanielers, and not by many spanielers, individual preference in training style. It is just a tool, in the right hands it can work miracles in the wrong hands it completely ruin a dog.


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## NATTY BUMPO

CDN_Cocker said:


> I didn't think spanielers used collars?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never turn a dog loose in the woods without a collar. Too many situations can arise when you may need to _reinforce_ a command. Dogs are not robots, even the best trained ones.

OTOH, I can see why trialers would not bc/ you can't run a dog in trials with a collar.

NB


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## Gavan

are caused by weak birds or birds that were mishandled prior to the event. Good chukars can make for an efficiently run hunt test. Bad chukars are an absolute abomination, same with hen pheasants full of eggs. Good planters can help the process but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear as they say. Early spring events in good cover are OK but after that you run a very slim chance of any kind of legitimate test or event. Just my opinion.


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## CDN_Cocker

I haven't put a collar on Jake at all yet. His breeder trains very "British" and doesn't use a collar of any sort so I just haven't bothered with Jake. I live in the city but just use a slip lead on him. However, I have always trained obedience with previous dogs (non hunting) with a choke chain and leather lead and I think I will probably switch to that in about a month when I really start doing formal training with him, he's not overly responsive to the slip lead, whether it's because it's so thick or what I don't know. I was worried because I was told how sensitive spaniels are but I don't think that will be an issue with Jake as he is quite head strong and bold. He's constantly getting trouble from me for getting into stuff he shouldn't and it doesn't phase him in the least lmao. So I think he'll be okay with the chain collar. I finally received Hup! in the mail and I see that Spencer advocates the use of the chain collar and leather lead as well so that is a relief.


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## NATTY BUMPO

I'm with Brandy said:


> My luck it would downpour while I ran the test. She did a great job on the Saturday water series.
> 
> We did not get a pass on Sunday we passed the land part of the test. On water our second bird down did not hit the water like it was supposed to, it landed on a log no splash and difficult for the dog to see with the trees in the back ground. I know she heard it hit the log because she looked in that direction when it hit. She picked up the two outside birds. I had to handler her to the one on the log, I got her to it but I had to many cast refusals and we were dropped. Some things I could of done differently as a handler but its all a learning curve. She didn't care she had a great time.
> 
> At it again next weekend. We need two more passes for the Finished title.


Doug,

You can call it "Hunt Test Luck". Everything went swimingly on Saturday. Good results for you and Brandy. 

On Sunday, your second bird hits the log with no splash. A very hard mark for her, I imagine wo/ the auditory signal to reinforce what she saw. Introduces siome confusion for the dog. Just bad luck; it happens.

You Brandy is the best amateur trained Springer I've ever watched. A beautiful dog and great in the field too. You two were the best bracemates we ever had.

Good Luck at the next Test. Hope Lady Luck smiles on you both.

Rod


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## CDN_Cocker

Well my boy just lost his first tooth! Should I be stopping retrieving?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> Well my boy just lost his first tooth! Should I be stopping retrieving?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I slowed down to maybe once or twice a week doing a retrieve or two during toothing and wasn't too concerned when he acted like even more of an idiot.


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> are caused by weak birds or birds that were mishandled prior to the event. Good chukars can make for an efficiently run hunt test. Bad chukars are an absolute abomination, same with hen pheasants full of eggs. Good planters can help the process but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear as they say. Early spring events in good cover are OK but after that you run a very slim chance of any kind of legitimate test or event. Just my opinion.


 
 Most of the fall trials I've planted with pheasants if I'm much over 5% traps I'm concerned, then again probably have 5% volunteer. Late spring hunt tests are not good, many traps.


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## uppower

My Boykin was trained on an e collar...as weird as it sounds he gets excited when it comes out cause it means a walk in the woods or a swim. But his trainer started him on it...doesn't phase him at all and you only need to run it on the lowest setting...


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## gundogguy

uppower said:


> My Boykin was trained on an e collar...as weird as it sounds he gets excited when it comes out cause it means a walk in the woods or a swim. But his *trainer started him on it*...doesn't phase him at all and you only need to run it on the lowest setting...
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Was your pup collar conditioned to the "hear" command?

The retriever culture generally conditions pups quite young here command , force fetch, then right into marking. and so on.
I have collar conditioned as young 14 weeks force fetched as soon as teeth settle in. 

The e-collar should not "phase" a dog. The dog during the conditioning process should learn how to turn the collar off by giving the proper response to a command. It is just a tool, though one that needs to be used wisely.


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## gundogguy

2011 UK Championship photo's 
8 pages worth
http://gundogsdotnu.hypermart.net/bilder/webgallerier/2011_ford_etal_sc/index.html

Who does your spaniel go back to??!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> 2011 UK Championship photo's
> 8 pages worth
> http://gundogsdotnu.hypermart.net/bilder/webgallerier/2011_ford_etal_sc/index.html
> 
> Who does your spaniel go back to??!


How far back??


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> How far back??
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


As far as you would like to go!

Jeff Towler think back 6weeks ago when you trained at Lychfield with the Great lakes club. Nancy ran Zeta, at the time a chasing puppie

Now here she is as a steady pup


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## Jeffrey Towler

gundogguy said:


> As far as you would like to go!
> 
> Jeff Towler think back 6weeks ago when you trained at Lychfield with the Great lakes club. Nancy ran Zeta, at the time a chasing puppie
> 
> Now here she is as a steady pup


Hi Hal

Very nice! I can see FC Zeta in her future.


That Great Lakes club, has some great gunners.So important with young dogs.

Regards
JT


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> As far as you would like to go!
> 
> Jeff Towler think back 6weeks ago when you trained at Lychfield with the Great lakes club. Nancy ran Zeta, at the time a chasing puppie
> 
> Now here she is as a steady pup


Very nice Zeta! 

_6. The dogs acceptance of training_

Looking like a great example of a spaniel!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> As far as you would like to go!
> 
> Jeff Towler think back 6weeks ago when you trained at Lychfield with the Great lakes club. Nancy ran Zeta, at the time a chasing puppie
> 
> Now here she is as a steady pup


Looking good Hal!! Wasn't there a discussion on TSC1 about steadying and allowing a dog to chase or not to chase?? Which approach do all out here agree with?? 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> How far back??
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





michgundog said:


> Looking good Hal!! _Wasn't there a discussion on TSC1_ about steadying and* allowing a dog to chase or not to chase?? *Which approach do all out here agree with??
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I cannot recall might as well start one here, it may be of some help to those that have young pups working there way up the scale.
Zeta was allowed to chase 3 birds I believe. she came in contact with a boat load of clips during the starting process
I do not believe there are any hard and fast formula. Each pup is different. One really must observe the intensity of the *chase*, the strength of the retrieving,especially the recall portion of the* retrieve. *Does the pup go out after the bird in style and the pup return to the handler with bird in momentum..quick and snappy. Is* the flush f*ree of contrivances is pup driving forward thru the bird or is a more contemplative about the bird leaving the nest.

Success in this area is really dependant on the ability of the handler/trainer to present the information needed by the dog in small portions and really make sure the pup learns each step before adding more complicated information in the equation. 

Now that places a lot of pressure on the handler. Not all dogs are going to steady, past performances of the pups ancestry will also have a huge impact on the pups chances for success in this area. Could the parents gr parents take the pressure of this type training or were they even give a chance to learn the behavior. That being said it does not mean that pups with lets say a light working background can not be steadied, I know I have steadied a boatload of show type spaniels for the hunt test program, some a little like pulling my hair out. But each pup is different so I had to up with new ways to "skin the cat" so speak.

Buy pups out of good well balanced working blood lines and you have a less issues as you proceed. The process will create issues well bred working lines will help minimize the issues one may come up against.
Hie-on


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## CDN_Cocker

michgundog said:


> Looking good Hal!! Wasn't there a discussion on TSC1 about steadying and allowing a dog to chase or not to chase?? Which approach do all out here agree with??
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Interested in this as well


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## Jeffrey Towler

gundogguy said:


> I cannot recall might as well start one here, it may be of some help to those that have young pups working there way up the scale.
> Zeta was allowed to chase 3 birds I believe. she came in contact with a boat load of clips during the starting process
> I do not believe there are any hard and fast formula. Each pup is different. One really must observe the intensity of the *chase*, the strength of the retrieving,especially the recall portion of the* retrieve. *Does the pup go out after the bird in style and the pup return to the handler with bird in momentum..quick and snappy. Is* the flush f*ree of contrivances is pup driving forward thru the bird or is a more contemplative about the bird leaving the nest.
> 
> Success in this area is really dependant on the ability of the handler/trainer to present the information needed by the dog in small portions and really make sure the pup learns each step before adding more complicated information in the equation.
> 
> Now that places a lot of pressure on the handler. Not all dogs are going to steady, past performances of the pups ancestry will also have a huge impact on the pups chances for success in this area. Could the parents gr parents take the pressure of this type training or were they even give a chance to learn the behavior. That being said it does not mean that pups with lets say a light working background can not be steadied, I know I have steadied a boatload of show type spaniels for the hunt test program, some a little like pulling my hair out. But each pup is different so I had to up with new ways to "skin the cat" so speak.
> 
> Buy pups out of good well balanced working blood lines and you have a less issues as you proceed. The process will create issues well bred working lines will help minimize the issues one may come up against.
> Hie-on


Hal there is strong advice here. Thanks for posting it.
JT


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> I cannot recall might as well start one here, it may be of some help to those that have young pups working there way up the scale.
> Zeta was allowed to chase 3 birds I believe. she came in contact with a boat load of clips during the starting process
> I do not believe there are any hard and fast formula. Each pup is different. One really must observe the intensity of the *chase*, the strength of the retrieving,especially the recall portion of the* retrieve. *Does the pup go out after the bird in style and the pup return to the handler with bird in momentum..quick and snappy. Is* the flush f*ree of contrivances is pup driving forward thru the bird or is a more contemplative about the bird leaving the nest.
> 
> _Success in this area is really dependant on the ability of the handler/trainer to *present the information needed by the dog in small portions* and really make sure the pup learns each step before adding more complicated information in the equation._
> 
> Now that places a lot of pressure on the handler. Not all dogs are going to steady, past performances of the pups ancestry will also have a huge impact on the pups chances for success in this area. Could the parents gr parents take the pressure of this type training or were they even give a chance to learn the behavior. That being said it does not mean that pups with lets say a light working background can not be steadied, I know I have steadied a boatload of show type spaniels for the hunt test program, some a little like pulling my hair out. But each pup is different so I had to up with new ways to "skin the cat" so speak.
> 
> Buy pups out of good well balanced working blood lines and you have a less issues as you proceed. The process will create issues well bred working lines will help minimize the issues one may come up against.
> Hie-on


Very well said Hal.

The part I turned red above has been our main objective with Zac so far by doing the bold italicized part. Here is an example of us "turning the screw" a little too much. Maybe around a month ago Zac (and he still does) had that very snappy retrieve with a fast delivery and he would try to run me over instead of stop. I thought it was about time to instill some manners, but also we were still making sure he delivered to hand every time. By adding the sit along with the hold he started to spit out the object on the way in getting ready to sit. He did this twice (once more than I should have let it go) when it hit me I was doing too much. We forgot about the sit on delivery at that point and firmed up the hold to hand, and to get over any confusion we began the "Midge" delivery. I saw this at 2005 Nationals when Midge would leap into AR Ginn's arms without him bending over (and he is a tall Texan). Since Zac has been small he loves to jump into our arms, that was the praise we used on teaching sit after he started with treats. He has delivered every retrieve since. Now that he has the delivery to hand down we are doing the sit on delivery some along with the Midge and the Bob S leg stand (JAM will know what that is). Zac seems to like the variety so I switch it up with him. Take it slow one baby step at a time. 

Zac has the sit to whistle and voice down pretty well. One little drill we started in the house and moved into the yard lately has been to give the sit whistle and immediately if he reacts very quick he get a retrieve. Now keep in mind he is line steady from the place board work that we continue at this time. So he is hupping and once his butt hits the ground he gets a toss. This is a small step to when we will be tossing the object and having him hup to the toss. Again we are trying to keep all the intensity and enthusiasm he has since that is one of the main reasons we love our spaniels. 

When it comes to chases...it will depend on how he is reacting to each new twist he is given. Zac has been doing quite a bit of quartering drills with clips, deads and bumpers right now. With good placement and timing he is running hard and learning much. Once he is steadied to the tossed bumpers, birds and clips over his head and he has it down cold we will get to flyers. Hopefully latter this summer I can report back how many chases he got. 

Good topic Mike.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Very well said Hal.
> 
> The part I turned red above has been our main objective with Zac so far by doing the bold italicized part. Here is an example of us "turning the screw" a little too much. Maybe around a month ago Zac (and he still does) had that very snappy retrieve with a fast delivery and he would try to run me over instead of stop. I thought it was about time to instill some manners, but also we were still making sure he delivered to hand every time. By adding the sit along with the hold he started to spit out the object on the way in getting ready to sit. He did this twice (once more than I should have let it go) when it hit me I was doing too much. We forgot about the sit on delivery at that point and firmed up the hold to hand, and to get over any confusion we began the "Midge" delivery. I saw this at 2005 Nationals when Midge would leap into AR Ginn's arms without him bending over (and he is a tall Texan). Since Zac has been small he loves to jump into our arms, that was the praise we used on teaching sit after he started with treats. He has delivered every retrieve since. Now that he has the delivery to hand down we are doing the sit on delivery some along with the Midge and the Bob S leg stand (JAM will know what that is). Zac seems to like the variety so I switch it up with him. Take it slow one baby step at a time.
> 
> Zac has the sit to whistle and voice down pretty well. One little drill we started in the house and moved into the yard lately has been to give the sit whistle and immediately if he reacts very quick he get a retrieve. Now keep in mind he is line steady from the place board work that we continue at this time. So he is hupping and once his butt hits the ground he gets a toss. This is a small step to when we will be tossing the object and having him hup to the toss. Again we are trying to keep all the intensity and enthusiasm he has since that is one of the main reasons we love our spaniels.
> 
> When it comes to chases...it will depend on how he is reacting to each new twist he is given. Zac has been doing quite a bit of quartering drills with clips, deads and bumpers right now. With good placement and timing he is running hard and learning much. Once he is steadied to the tossed bumpers, birds and clips over his head and he has it down cold we will get to flyers._ Hopefully latter this summer I can report back how many chases he got. _
> 
> Good topic Mike.


A concern that is always present is that of information overload. Not info is a bad thing to much can cause indecision when working with pupster. Timing in the beginning is huge.. the only way to work on timing is to train in small incremental steps for the pups sake and the handlers sake

_The number of chases is not the important thing here. if it was that would one to think that there is a formula...there is not a formula. I have steady to many dogs to count and never 2 dogs the same way over the same amount of time. The symptoms of the steadying blues_ usually break down into justa few areas_, Loss of speed and energy, marking, and or a general malaise about the work itself_. all are signs of lack of comfidence, steps should be taken to build the pups confidence.

Donot get hung up number of chases!!


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## dauber

That's the trouble with us amateurs, we overthink the easy stuff and underthink the tough.


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## CDN_Cocker

I think I overthink all of it lol


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Jeff Towler think back 6weeks ago when you trained at Lychfield with the Great lakes club. Nancy ran Zeta, at the time a chasing puppie
> 
> Now here she is as a steady pup



She shows steady progress, Hal.

That white flyer really stands out against the background woods. Might add to the temptation to chase. Something new. 

Good Girl, Zeta!

NB


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## yooperguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> I think I overthink all of it lol


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> That's the trouble with us amateurs, we overthink the easy stuff and underthink the tough.


No donot kick yourself. This process is very tricky. The last 10 days or so there has been many exchanges between Salmy kennel and us. The conclusion that has been drawn are simple this We may be steadying Zeta early,
however where she is at in development, that is better than being late in the process like Mike W was with her mother Thistle was. Now Mike Wallace has one dog in the bird dog hall fame (Zorro) and some day he will be inducted and he has no problem admitting he should have steadied Zeta's mom sooner. Now Thistle over came those inherit issues She had a problem on the honor her brace mate but is doing just fine.
There are many reasons that we sent Zeta back to her birth place for this training one of them was the fact that the breeder Mike W. had steadied both the sire,Cliff and the dam Thistle. As a breeder Mike is fully aware of what great breeding this was. and he is just thrilled to be working with babies he welped. As a breeder there is no greater honor and joy than to have a hand in bringing "your kids" up.

Do not be to tough on yourself when you are on this journey, just keep your eye on the prize and your dog.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> A concern that is always present is that of information overload. Not info is a bad thing to much can cause indecision when working with pupster. Timing in the beginning is huge.. the only way to work on timing is to train in small incremental steps for the pups sake and the handlers sake
> 
> _The number of chases is not the important thing here. if it was that would one to think that there is a formula...*there is not a formula*. I have steady to many dogs to count and never 2 dogs the same way over the same amount of time. The symptoms of the steadying blues_ usually break down into justa few areas_, Loss of speed and energy, marking, and or a general malaise about the work itself_. all are signs of lack of comfidence, steps should be taken to build the pups confidence.
> 
> Donot get hung up number of chases!!


My post was a very long winded way of saying every single day with the pup is deciding if we need to stop and fill up the gas tank (keep old lessons sharp and snappy) or keep driving down the road (progressing along), and how fast should we go today. Our routine is usually a couple of retrieves starts most sessions and I "read" the pup to see where his head is. As usual Hal you bring it right to the nub "there is no formula".



gundogguy said:


> No donot kick yourself. This process is very tricky. The last 10 days or so there has been many exchanges between Salmy kennel and us. The conclusion that has been drawn are simple this We may be steadying Zeta early,
> however where she is at in development, that is better than being late in the process like Mike W was with her mother Thistle was. Now Mike Wallace has one dog in the bird dog hall fame (Zorro) and some day he will be inducted and he has no problem admitting he should have steadied Zeta's mom sooner. Now Thistle over came those inherit issues She had a problem on the honor her brace mate but is doing just fine.
> There are many reasons that we sent Zeta back to her birth place for this training one of them was the fact that the breeder Mike W. had steadied both the sire,Cliff and the dam Thistle. As a breeder Mike is fully aware of what great breeding this was. and he is just thrilled to be working with babies he welped. As a breeder there is no greater honor and joy than to have a hand in bringing "your kids" up.
> 
> Do not be to tough on yourself when you are on this journey, just keep your eye on the prize and your dog.


Now most people like to see me "kick myself", they think it is the funniest thing ever:lol::lol:. 

The symptoms of pressure and boredom can be similar and is one I have misread in the past. Thanks for the comments.


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## CDN_Cocker

My guy is 4 months old and has started avoiding me on the return part of the retrieve. I am only giving him 1 or 2 retrieves now because of it every 3-4 days. His drive is super keen but does not want to come back to me. Even went back to the hallway and he stop half way and won't come closer. I have always let him hold onto it for awhile when he comes back and never rip it out of his mouth. What's going on and how do I fix this?


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## NATTY BUMPO

"IF" I have my dates right, this is a very busy weekend for the Spanielers:

Mike M. has Finn and Jazz going to a HT, looking for some good things to happen.

Doug C. has sweet Brandy in a HT too looking for her last pass till Finished.

And Team Dauber are off to the Paul McGagh spaniel seminar with the young Zackster in tow.

Good Luck, Guys. May The Force be with you.

NB

OTOH, I am off for a turkey hunt with my oldest grandson. Looking to call in a longbeard; the pressures really on 'ol NB.


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## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> "IF" I have my dates right, this is a very busy weekend for the Spanielers:
> 
> Mike M. has Finn and Jazz going to a HT, looking for some good things to happen.
> 
> Doug C. has sweet Brandy in a HT too looking for her last pass till Finished.
> 
> And Team Dauber are off to the Paul McGagh spaniel seminar with the young Zackster in tow.
> 
> Good Luck, Guys. May The Force be with you.
> 
> NB
> 
> OTOH, I am off for a turkey hunt with my oldest grandson. Looking to call in a longbeard; the pressures really on 'ol NB.


 
Yes and team JAM is busy with agility! Good luck to everyone and may your spaniels perform well! And the ole gobblers too!!


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> My guy is 4 months old and has started avoiding me on the return part of the retrieve. I am only giving him 1 or 2 retrieves now because of it every 3-4 days. His drive is super keen but does not want to come back to me. Even went back to the hallway and he stop half way and won't come closer. I have always let him hold onto it for awhile when he comes back and never rip it out of his mouth. What's going on and how do I fix this?



Listen carefully to Pat Nolan in this video.
If all trainers were half as good as Pat, most dogs would be champions
The mat that Pat is referring to is the same as a box or an elevated table that has been discussed before here on the forum


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## Jeffrey Towler

NATTY BUMPO said:


> "IF" I have my dates right, this is a very busy weekend for the Spanielers:
> 
> Mike M. has Finn and Jazz going to a HT, looking for some good things to happen.
> 
> Doug C. has sweet Brandy in a HT too looking for her last pass till Finished.
> 
> And Team Dauber are off to the Paul McGagh spaniel seminar with the young Zackster in tow.
> 
> Good Luck, Guys. May The Force be with you.
> 
> NB
> 
> OTOH, I am off for a turkey hunt with my oldest grandson. Looking to call in a longbeard; the pressures really on 'ol NB.


Good Luck Guys. I would be at Southern Mi this weekend, but I am picking up Reba .


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## brucew63

CDN_Cocker said:


> My guy is 4 months old and has started avoiding me on the return part of the retrieve. I am only giving him 1 or 2 retrieves now because of it every 3-4 days. His drive is super keen but does not want to come back to me. Even went back to the hallway and he stop half way and won't come closer. I have always let him hold onto it for awhile when he comes back and never rip it out of his mouth. What's going on and how do I fix this?


In my opinion, your answer is given in the first six words of your post. Your pup is 4 months old. That's like a 4 year old child, full of fun and exploration. And possessiveness. In his mind, you threw something away, it's his for the taking now. Good for him! Isn't that what you want him to do, go get a discard?

Sounds to me like what you've really got is a pup who won't come to you when you call him, 100% of the time. If it was me (and it has been), I'd wait until the pup was 100% solid on obeying the Here! command without any physical or mental distractions first, and that's really not likely to arrive for many, many more weeks.


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## gundogguy

In this era of political correctness an article about shooting and killing pheasants and ducks in a mainstream publication ...well would be unheard of.
Here is a link to awesome read on the subject of field trial gunning and why it is done the way it is. This article was published the year I graduated from high school.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1080924/1/index.htm


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## CDN_Cocker

Why do you guys all use place boards? Where did this come from?


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## Jeffrey Towler

CDN_Cocker said:


> Why do you guys all use place boards? Where did this come from?


Hi
I learned about place boards from Jim Dobbs. Very powerful training tool.

Regards
JT


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Why do you guys all use place boards? Where did this come from?



It has been part of my training regime for 15-20 yrs I used it so long i cannot remember not using the place board. It is more than a board it can be a box, a platform a piece of door mat a piece of carpet any thing that is different than the surrounding environment. It is the the strongest piece of equipment to teach a dog the here command. Once here is mastered the sky's the limit in what a dog can learn.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FEeRM-7F_E"]New Place Board - YouTube[/ame]

By the way, SW Ontario Springer trials this weekend! I have to look but I think Fisherville, Ontario
Here is a link to upcoming spaniel events in Ontario..

http://www.dogshow.ca/Events

To find when the spaniel trials are, use the filter events drop downs, click on the appropriate category to find spring of 2013 spaniel events


----------



## uppower

Will a spaniel get a little more driven to run through the brush and such once its been introduced to birds and makes the connection 


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## brucew63

CDN_Cocker said:


> Why do you guys all use place boards?


I've not yet used one, but grasp the concept and don't disagree with it.


uppower said:


> Will a spaniel get a little more driven to run through the brush and such once its been introduced to birds and makes the connection.


generally yes, but there's no reason to only rely upon or trust live birds to establish the confidence and drive to penetrate the brush. I use training dummies, once they've become driven to retrieve for me. whatever you do, please don't condone "stopping at the edge and barking"!!!!


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## gundogguy

uppower said:


> Will a spaniel get a little more driven to run through the brush and s*uch once its been introduced to birds and makes the connection *
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Makes the connection to what? I thought we had a recall problem. Pup was not coming back with retrieving item??
Do not worry about drive until you get a good recall behavior with the item in the pups mouth and then in your hand.


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## CDN_Cocker

No that was me.

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## gundogguy

uppower said:


> Will a spaniel get a little more driven to run through the brush and such once its been introduced to birds and makes the connection
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Sure drive will increase, all things being equal there are optimum limits, plant your training birds in the brush most good dogs will make the connection. Have you bought your dog yet? Boykin ?



CDN_Cocker said:


> No that was me.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Oops my bad multitasking between the clay range and the Pre Race Preakness show..


----------



## uppower

Yea, I have had him for a month or so. He likes to do a few retrieves 8-10 then he gets a little lax but still follows commands. He has all the obedience including delivering to hand. Just walks on the trail ahead of me and occasionally breaks into brush. Some days better than others. When he obviously scents something he flies around in brush just pretty lax besides that. I was hoping getting the concepts of birds/getting birdy would flip that switch for him. Get him so he wouldn't stay out of the brush when not on heel!


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## I'm with Brandy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> "IF" I have my dates right, this is a very busy weekend for the Spanielers:
> 
> Mike M. has Finn and Jazz going to a HT, looking for some good things to happen.
> 
> Doug C. has sweet Brandy in a HT too looking for her last pass till Finished.
> 
> And Team Dauber are off to the Paul McGagh spaniel seminar with the young Zackster in tow.
> 
> Good Luck, Guys. May The Force be with you.
> 
> NB
> 
> OTOH, I am off for a turkey hunt with my oldest grandson. Looking to call in a longbeard; the pressures really on 'ol NB.


We did indeed run two more HRC Finished hunt test this weekend. 

Brandy and I had a great day on Saturday taking home the 3rd of 4 passes we need to title. The judges from Saturday gave Brandy some really nice compliments which makes you feel good about the work the dog does even more so than getting the ribbon. 

Unfortunately on Sunday we went out on the 90+ yard channel blind. The second mark dropped on the right side mouth of the channel and the third mark dropped on the left side mouth of the channel. So it was a thread the needle blind. She nailed the third mark then picked up the short breaking bird (1st mark down). Put up a little hunt on the second bird but got it. During that hunt she found several places where birds had dropped before. When I tried to line her up for the blind she kept looking at the old fall. I gave her no bird command. And was able to get her to look down the channel. Once she hit the water she decided she was going to the fall area of the second bird. I was able to get her into the channel but several yards down the channel I was dropped by the judges she just would not forget about that fall area of the second mark. I am not too strict with her on these things as it can take away from her ability to do upland work as an upland dog should. I will have to break it down and teach it to her. She has had channel blind work but it has been a year since we last did any. 

Time to take a break from hunt test for a while. We will try to get that last pass this fall. We will also be working on our last pass for Great Lakes Sport Dog Finished upland and the last pass for GLSD Finished retriever this fall. 

Hope others did well this past weekend.


----------



## michgundog

I'm with Brandy said:


> We did indeed run two more HRC Finished hunt test this weekend.
> 
> Brandy and I had a great day on Saturday taking home the 3rd of 4 passes we need to title. The judges from Saturday gave Brandy some really nice compliments which makes you feel good about the work the dog does even more so than getting the ribbon.
> 
> Unfortunately on Sunday we went out on the 90+ yard channel blind. The second mark dropped on the right side mouth of the channel and the third mark dropped on the left side mouth of the channel. So it was a thread the needle blind. She nailed the third mark then picked up the short breaking bird (1st mark down). Put up a little hunt on the second bird but got it. During that hunt she found several places where birds had dropped before. When I tried to line her up for the blind she kept looking at the old fall. I gave her no bird command. And was able to get her to look down the channel. Once she hit the water she decided she was going to the fall area of the second bird. I was able to get her into the channel but several yards down the channel I was dropped by the judges she just would not forget about that fall area of the second mark. I am not too strict with her on these things as it can take away from her ability to do upland work as an upland dog should. I will have to break it down and teach it to her. She has had channel blind work but it has been a year since we last did any.
> 
> Time to take a break from hunt test for a while. We will try to get that last pass this fall. We will also be working on our last pass for Great Lakes Sport Dog Finished upland and the last pass for GLSD Finished retriever this fall.
> 
> Hope others did well this past weekend.


Good job Doug. 


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## CDN_Cocker

Ammo got his JH and Sam (Jake's granddam) got her SH!

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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Ammo got his JH and Sam (Jake's granddam) got her SH!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


The whole Flushing Star crew had a great weekend. Talk about a nice bunch of cockers and springers, wow!! Jim, Matt and Dan put on a clinic...


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## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> Why do you guys all use place boards? Where did this come from?


On our way home form the McGagh clinic...we used boards for every drill for 2 full days, except a couple of very experienced dogs on the last drill of the clinic, most still started off the boards. Paul has one board inside his house by the door and one outside by the door, his dogs sit on the board to go outside and to come in the house. He used the boards (and some other interesting tricks) to solve most every delivery problem, mouth problem, on to steady, adding distraction by shifting boards and on and on with boards. We even used boards on the mountain roll! He says he learned in from those who learned it from the Dobbs.

When we get home and look at some of the pics I will post some more about the clinic. 

Congrats to Doug and Brandy, JAM and her Stormy and Bullet dogs all for some success this weekend!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

I'm with Brandy said:


> We did indeed run two more HRC Finished hunt test this weekend.
> 
> Brandy and I had a great day on Saturday taking home the 3rd of 4 passes we need to title. The judges from Saturday gave Brandy some really nice compliments which makes you feel good about the work the dog does even more so than getting the ribbon.
> 
> Unfortunately on Sunday we went out on the 90+ yard channel blind. The second mark dropped on the right side mouth of the channel and the third mark dropped on the left side mouth of the channel. So it was a thread the needle blind. She nailed the third mark then picked up the short breaking bird (1st mark down). Put up a little hunt on the second bird but got it. During that hunt she found several places where birds had dropped before. When I tried to line her up for the blind she kept looking at the old fall. I gave her no bird command. And was able to get her to look down the channel. Once she hit the water she decided she was going to the fall area of the second bird. I was able to get her into the channel but several yards down the channel I was dropped by the judges she just would not forget about that fall area of the second mark. I am not too strict with her on these things as it can take away from her ability to do upland work as an upland dog should. I will have to break it down and teach it to her. She has had channel blind work but it has been a year since we last did any.
> 
> Time to take a break from hunt test for a while. We will try to get that last pass this fall. We will also be working on our last pass for Great Lakes Sport Dog Finished upland and the last pass for GLSD Finished retriever this fall.
> 
> Hope others did well this past weekend.


THANKS for the excellent report on the HT Doug. 

Congrats on the 3rd pass. She'll get that final leg this fall no doubt. She just had tough luck on this last one with all the old scent there and all. Pretty artificial setup but that's the nature of the beast.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> On our way home form the McGagh clinic...we used boards for every drill for 2 full days, except a couple of very experienced dogs on the last drill of the clinic, most still started off the boards. Paul has one board inside his house by the door and one outside by the door, his dogs sit on the board to go outside and to come in the house. He used the boards (and some other interesting tricks) to solve most every delivery problem, mouth problem, on to steady, adding distraction by shifting boards and on and on with boards. We even used boards on the mountain roll! He says he learned in from those who learned it from the Dobbs.
> 
> When we get home and look at some of the pics I will post some more about the clinic.
> 
> Congrats to Doug and Brandy, JAM and her Stormy and Bullet dogs all for some success this weekend!


Hey hey your back already good for you and Karen.
Lots of inquiring minds want to know....
Your synopsis should be at a least 1000 words... Oh heck break the sessions down hour by hour.. that will give those inquiring minds plenty to chew on!

On the Hunt test scene Roxanne's Fegley Harry finished his Junior title and Nancy Gallant's Keeper added another leg to his Senior title quest.


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## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> "IF" I have my dates right, this is a very busy weekend for the Spanielers:
> 
> Mike M. has Finn and Jazz going to a HT, looking for some good things to happen.
> 
> Doug C. has sweet Brandy in a HT too looking for her last pass till Finished.
> 
> And Team Dauber are off to the Paul McGagh spaniel seminar with the young Zackster in tow.
> 
> Good Luck, Guys. May The Force be with you.
> 
> NB
> 
> OTOH, I am off for a turkey hunt with my oldest grandson. Looking to call in a longbeard; the pressures really on 'ol NB.


Thanks Rod, not sure what happened to my original post??

Anyway we had a great test weekend, lots of great spaniels and three very nice curly coats. I will post qualified dogs ASAP.

Dick Dixon with his Simon dog a FBECS, qualified both days in Master. These were Simon's first 2 tests, on Sunday Simon received a score of a perfect 10!! Very nice dog and precision handling by Dick. 

I was able to finish Finn's senior title Saturday and gained another leg with Jazzy. I would have titled her too on Sunday we headed to the water with a decent score on land, but she broke at the water! Handler error not the dogs fault.....


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## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> .
> 
> Dick Dixon with his Simon dog a FBECS, qualified both days in Master. These were Simon's first 2 tests, on Sunday Simon received a score of a perfect 10!! Very nice dog and precision handling by Dick.
> 
> I was able to finish Finn's senior title Saturday and gained another leg with Jazzy. I would have titled her too on Sunday we headed to the water with a decent score on land, but she broke at the water! Handler error not the dogs fault.....
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


*BIG CONGRATS* to Team MGD on achieving Finn's title and another leg for Jazz. Excellent work by both pups and their trainer/handler.

Dick Dixon has been a well known name in Michigan ECS ranks for quite awhile now. I believe he took one of Ernie's dogs to his Fld Ch title. Congrats on a stellar performance by his Simon dog.

NB


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> *BIG CONGRATS* to Team MGD on achieving Finn's title and another leg for Jazz. Excellent work by both pups and their trainer/handler.
> 
> Dick Dixon has been a well known name in Michigan ECS ranks for quite awhile now. I believe he took one of Ernie's dogs to his Fld Ch title. Congrats on a stellar performance by his Simon dog.
> 
> NB


Thanks Rod. Perhaps you can bring your crew down next year. 

Yes, he has been around for awhile and always has good dogs. Dick is a very dedicated trainer and it shows in his dogs. I know his last Master dog Colby Ernie had placed an FC title on him I'm not certain what kennel he was out of. 


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Hey hey your back already good for you and Karen.
> Lots of inquiring minds want to know....
> Your synopsis should be at a least 1000 words... Oh heck break the sessions down hour by hour.. that will give those inquiring minds plenty to chew on!
> 
> On the Hunt test scene Roxanne's Fegley Harry finished his Junior title and Nancy Gallant's Keeper added another leg to his Senior title quest.


Congrats to Roxie and Harry! As well as Nancy's Keeper. Congrats Mike Jazzy, and Finn. Dick D is made for hunt tests! Good to see his name running a dog again. 

We just got home and unpacked. With the weather forecast I should be able to get the first few hours covered. Zac was overwhelmed by Saturday afternoon, but recovered and had some nice work Sunday. Paul also wanted to see our Smoke dog work and he put quite the smile on his face being Smoke is a son of his Storm dog who died of cancer last fall. Storm placed 4th in the Canadian open his last trial after being diagnosed with the cancer. We were all riveted listening to the story. More tomorrow after we go thru the pictures.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Congrats to Roxie and Harry! As well as Nancy's Keeper. Congrats Mike Jazzy, and Finn. Dick D is made for hunt tests! Good to see his name running a dog again.
> 
> We just got home and unpacked. With the weather forecast I should be able to get the first few hours covered. Zac was overwhelmed by Saturday afternoon, but recovered and had some nice work Sunday. Paul also wanted to see our Smoke dog work and he put quite the smile on his face being Smoke is a son of his Storm dog who died of cancer last fall. Storm placed 4th in the Canadian open his last trial after being diagnosed with the cancer. We were all riveted listening to the story. More tomorrow after we go thru the pictures.


Thanks Steve, I'm looking forward to your pictures. Glad you and Karen made it back safe, that's a long drive. 

I'll soon post other qualifying dogs ASAP from this past weekend


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## michgundog

SMSSTC WATER TEST

I'll be reposting this post to keep it active since it only applies to springer and cocker spaniels:

SMSSTC will be holding a Water Test at George Kittle's Farm in North Adams, 
MI on August 10th. The event is open to all English Springer Spaniels, 
English Cocker Spaniels, Cocker Spaniels 6 months of age or older.

Our premium and entry forms are now available for download at:

http://www.smsstc.org/watertest/



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## uppower

Water test isn't open to other spaniel breeds?


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## michgundog

uppower said:


> Water test isn't open to other spaniel breeds?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


What type of spaniel do you have? 


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> What type of spaniel do you have?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
He has a Boykin.

UPpower, this is for the ESS's, ECS's and American cockers who are going for their Field Championship (FC). They need to have passed their water test to get awarded the FC. I would bet if you wanted to run they would let you run, but it wouldn't count for anything. We used to run some with the AWS's before they could run in any AKC events.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> He has a Boykin.
> 
> UPpower, this is for the ESS's, ECS's and American cockers who are going for their Field Championship (FC). They need to have passed their water test to get awarded the FC. I would bet if you wanted to run they would let you run, but it wouldn't count for anything. We used to run some with the AWS's before they could run in any AKC events.


Thanks Steve. Looking back over the post I should've stated that. Thanks again. 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> SMSSTC WATER TEST
> 
> I'll be reposting this post to keep it active since it only applies to springer and cocker spaniels:
> 
> SMSSTC will be holding a Water Test at George Kittle's Farm in North Adams,
> MI on August 10th. The event is open to all English Springer Spaniels,
> English Cocker Spaniels, Cocker Spaniels 6 months of age or older.
> 
> Our premium and entry forms are now available for download at:
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/watertest/
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


That is good news there are a number of dogs in Michigan and Ohio that need that before completing the FC or AFC requirements.
In addition sounds like it could turn into a nice little late summer "picnic trial"
Hie -on!


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## michgundog

Thanks for sharing Steve.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Great reporting, Steve.

Maybe you will win a "Doggie Pulitzer" for this series on the McGagh Seminar. You certainly deserve it!!

Rod


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## JAM

Great report, Steve. I can hardly wait to train with you and your team and see some of your new training tricks in action.


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## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Great report, Steve. I can hardly wait to train with you and your team and see some of your new training tricks in action.


:thumbup::thumbup:

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## michgundog

yooperguy2003 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Hey YooperGuy, how are doing? Hope your on the mend.


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Thanks for sharing Steve.





NATTY BUMPO said:


> Great reporting, Steve.
> 
> Maybe you will win a "Doggie Pulitzer" for this series on the McGagh Seminar. You certainly deserve it!!
> Rod


Doggie Pulitzer what is that...a bag of doggie P**P:lol::lol:!



JAM said:


> Great report, Steve. I can hardly wait to train with you and your team and see some of your new training tricks in action.





yooperguy2003 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks everyone. We will be getting together soon for some training.

It was great fun meeting a whole new bunch of people and talking PA grouse and woodcock. Christine is a very interesting lady with a huge passion for springers and upland bird hunting, I believe she may be stopping by this fall for some grouse hunting. Of course spending 2 days with one of the top dog men was very informative, having him put his hands on your dog for 20-30 minutes a day gives you many things to think about too.

Someone asked Paul Saturday evening which he liked better, the cockers or springers? He answered he likes training cockers the best because they are more difficult to train. He like trialing springers best, he said because he doesn't have to travel as much, but after spending a couple days with him I believe it is more to do with the higher level of competition.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> *Someone asked Paul Saturday evening which he liked better, the cockers or springers? He answered he likes training cockers the best because they are more difficult to train. He like trialing springers best, he said because he doesn't have to travel as much, but after spending a couple days with him I believe it is more to do with the higher level of competition*.





Paul has a great grasp of the situation! Springer folks may not believe that when they are having a difficult time downloading the basics, but it is true Cockers are more difficult to train. and there is much to be said about the availability of Springer trials and the overall level competition of the dogs and handlers between the two venues.


----------



## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> Hey YooperGuy, how are doing? Hope your on the mend.


Hey michgundog! I'm doing well and getting better each day. Pneumonia is some nasty stuff! Thanks for asking.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Paul has a great grasp of the situation! Springer folks may not believe that when they are having a difficult time downloading the basics, but it is true Cockers are more difficult to train. and there is much to be said about the availability of Springer trials and the overall level competition of the dogs and handlers between the two venues.


+1

Here's a favorite quote from one of the great English spaniel trainers:

"You can _tell_ a Springer what to do, but you have to _ask_ a Cocker"

I shoulda bot a Springer!!

NB


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> +1
> 
> Here's a favorite quote from one of the great English spaniel trainers:
> 
> "You can _tell_ a Springer what to do, but you have to _ask_ a Cocker"
> 
> I shoulda bot a Springer!!
> 
> NB


That quote makes me wonder if I was slipped a liver and white cocker with fake papers stating he's a springer.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> That quote makes me wonder if I was slipped a liver and white cocker with fake papers stating he's a springer.


:lol: He is just coming into his own JAM.

That leads me to another Saturday evening discussion. It started out with Paul's strong support of Keith Erlandson and his influence on spaniels both in the UK and here. He contends there would be no field bred English cockers if it wasn't for Erlandson. Paul says in the late 70's when he got his first spaniel for field use in the UK you could not find a field bred cocker. Over the next 10 years they all of a sudden were available everywhere. He believes Keith and others who brought back the fbecs used considerable ESS blood to increase the numbers and genetic makeup.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Anyone got any good videos of a cocker duck hunting? Been youtubing this morning but can't find anything.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

CDN_Cocker said:


> Anyone got any good videos of a cocker duck hunting? Been youtubing this morning but can't find anything.



Gotta believe GDG will see this and respond. Hal is TSC U-Tube Guru.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Hahaha right on. I can't wait. Not enough cocker videos out there!


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## uppower

Once I finally manage to trap a pigeon. How do I go about clipping its wings? I heard you could tape or rubber band a wing? Or do you do both wings?


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## dauber

uppower said:


> Once I finally manage to trap a pigeon. How do I go about clipping its wings? I heard you could tape or rubber band a wing? Or do you do both wings?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
If it's your pups first clip I would duct tape both wings to the body so he doesn't get beat in the face. Once he is good and bold to the bird I usually just pull a few flight feathers on one side. You can tape one wing too.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Hahaha right on.* I can't wait.* Not enough cocker videos out there!


Well you may have to wait. You might want to contact Jim K. to see if he has any water fowling promotional pieces. Probable not high on the activity list of majority of Cocker owners wish list. Tons of video on the little dogs do great work in the upland on Pheasant, Rabbit, Grouse and wood cock.
What I have always done is watch a retriever duck hunting and trained me spaniel to copy the work of the big retriever dogs.



uppower said:


> Once I finally manage to trap a pigeon. How do I go about clipping its wings? I heard you could tape or rubber band a wing? Or do you do both wings?
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Rain here to day it should dry out by Saturday, I'll do a little photo essay on handling training birds Dauber did well in his response, however there are numerous ways to handle the pigeon and their use in training dogs for the gun! Lets get some clarity so birds do not get wasted or lost or misused...it will only save you time and money to do it right the first time vs experimenting. Must be some kind of karma just picked up 100 of the little rascals. 



dauber said:


> If it's your pups first clip I would duct tape both wings to the body so he doesn't get beat in the face. Once he is good and bold to the bird I usually just pull a few flight feathers on one side. You can tape one wing too.


This was good description. We will expand the options and flexibility training bird use. Deads, Clips, flyers. As it pertains to the flushing spaniel


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## CDN_Cocker

Couple of shots from today of jake. He's 19 weeks old now. 

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## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> Couple of shots from today of jake. He's 19 weeks old now.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Nice pictures of Jake. Looks like he is getting ready for ducks! Good boy Jake.


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## JAM

CDN_Cocker said:


> Couple of shots from today of jake. He's 19 weeks old now.


Good looking pup!


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## gundogguy

The Chronicles of Zeta.. Rainy day in West Virginia...
Becoming underwhelmed by the whole process...

Steady eddie....... on the way back with winged tipped flyer

I'm off to Indiana shooting flyers for the retrievers got to go see the Blake dog!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> The Chronicles of Zeta.. Rainy day in West Virginia...
> Becoming underwhelmed by the whole process...
> 
> Steady eddie....... on the way back with winged tipped flyer
> 
> I'm off to Indiana shooting flyers for the retrievers got to go see the Blake dog!


Zeta's looking like an old pro. Hie on!


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Zeta's looking like an *old pro*. Hie on!


I know Jam it is scary.. Her 1st birthday is July 9th, she not even 11 months old.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Zeta's looking like an old pro. Hie on!


 
She sure is!! The future is bright for that young lady.

Paul told us about his great "Storm", for 8 months he only used tennis balls and bumpers training him on the boards in California. Then after winter when they moved back to ND he trained up very fast (I think he said "_scary_ fast") and was winning trials shortly after a year old. He said Storm was one of his easiest dogs ever, not to say he didn't have a few bumps but he was the easiest cocker he'd had. Zeta is sounding very similar!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> :lol: He is just coming into his own JAM.
> 
> That leads me to another Saturday evening discussion. It started out with Paul's strong support of Keith Erlandson and his influence on spaniels both in the UK and here. *He contends there would be no field bred English cockers if it wasn't for Erlandson. Paul says in the late 70's when he got his first spaniel for field use in the UK you could not find a field bred cocker. Over the next 10 years they all of a sudden were available everywhere. He believes Keith and others who brought back the fbecs used considerable ESS blood to increase the numbers and genetic makeup.*





Those "others"would be Ian and Wendy Openshaw the Clocough brothers or Alan Gwinn and his brother as well. 
Paul would also acknowledge that the FBEC has a strong loyal following of breeder/trainers I'm sure that the salvation of the breed was Keith Erlandson with help from his many disciples. You know there is some one that I'm forgetting and would be UK ex patriot and Michigan's own Andrew Greene! Andrew spent his life with all of the above mentioned FBEC folks, breeding, training and trialing in the UK before he came to the USA.


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## michgundog

Way to go Zeta!! Sounds like she's living up to those awesome bloodlines...


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> The Chronicles of Zeta.. Rainy day in West Virginia...
> Becoming underwhelmed by the whole process...


Good to Hear. LUV the "becoming underwhelmed" part.

NB


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Those "others"would be Ian and Wendy Openshaw the Clocough brothers or Alan Gwinn and his brother as well.
> Paul would also acknowledge that the FBEC has a strong loyal following of breeder/trainers I'm sure that the salvation of the breed was Keith Erlandson with help from his many disciples. You know there is some one that I'm forgetting and would be UK ex patriot and *Michigan's own Andrew Greene*! Andrew spent his life with all of the above mentioned FBEC folks, breeding, training and trialing in the UK before he came to the USA.


Yes he talked about all of the above including Andrew. He even told the story of Ian threatening to burn down Keith's house for something he wrote about one of Ian's dogs.:yikes:


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Yes he talked about all of the above including Andrew. He even told the story of Ian threatening to burn down Keith's house for something he wrote about one of Ian's dogs.:yikes:



:yikes::yikes: Do you think that got Ian banned from the "forum"???:yikes::yikes:
Or did the "Mod" let hang around and play???


----------



## CDN_Cocker

I have had someone mention (after looking at a picture only) that they think my pup has weak pasterns in the front. Is this common in cockers and does anyone have a pic of one with it? I think it is just the angle of the pic and the fact that he hasn't grown into his paws yet. So now I'm all worried. Here's a couple pics:


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> I have had someone mention (after looking at a picture only) that they think my pup has weak pasterns in the front. Is this common in cockers and does anyone have a pic of one with it? I think it is just the angle of the pic and the fact that he hasn't grown into his paws yet. So now I'm all worried. Here's a couple pics:


What is a pasterns? He looks like a powerful little guy to me. When it comes to field bred spaniels don't let the look make any impressions save that stuff for the Westminster crowd. I was going to mention to you if you want to waterfowl your dog, start conditioning him to decoys in your training routine. 


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> What is a pasterns? He looks like a powerful little guy to me. When it comes to field bred spaniels don't let the look make any impressions save that stuff for the Westminster crowd. I was going to mention to you if you want to waterfowl your dog, start conditioning him to decoys in your training routine.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
Well said Michgundog! Jake looks fine to me. Ask them for some pastern exercises. I don't give a hoot about color, size, I guess pasterns either. Just the things down in my sig line.

Good point on the decoys too, set up in the yard, have him retrieve around them first, then thru them. Then move it to shallow water were he can run in the water, same sequence, then to deeper water same sequence. Make sure he get tangled in the strings and pulls them around some so when it is 35 degrees with the wind whipping you don't have to save a panicked pup.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

He's very strong and super fast, it certainly isn't hindering him. Jim called me so I asked him about it and sent pics and he thinks it may be due to him growing so fast and the fact that I had such a hard time for so long finding a food that agreed with him. He had diarrhea from the time he was 9 weeks up until about 3 weeks ago when I got him on Acana Grasslands which finally has him putting out solid poops. So with the fast growing and lack of nutrient absorption it could have caused it. After doing a quick search online it says sometimes it happens in teething as well which he is also doing. Hopefully now that his diet is in check it will start to improve. He is young so I'm sure the bones are still soft and can correct themselves. Jim is asking his vet if there is anything else I can supplement with and will be getting back to me. Hopefully nothing to worry about


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> What is a pasterns? He looks like a powerful little guy to me. When it comes to field bred spaniels don't let the look make any impressions save that stuff for the Westminster crowd. I was going to mention to you if you want to waterfowl your dog, start conditioning him to decoys in your training routine.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Back in the day this photo was taken pastern's was a topic of conversation!
Ch Cordial's Make Mine Moxie


15 yrs later when the 2nd photo was taken pastern did not come up to much..if at all AFC Justamuc's Wildfire Blaze


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## CDN_Cocker

I don;t think I'm going to worry about it unless it gets noticeably worse it is very slight. I read doing hill work help strengthen the pasterns so I have been tossing him retrieves from the top of a hill a few times the past 2 days. I think he's just growing too fast for his ligaments and everything will sort itself out.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Dauber,

I just got a chance to read through your experience with the seminar in PA.

Should have told you to look closely at that jumping fence there is a perfect impression of Brandy's head in that chicken wire.

Interesting information about the place boards. I have used them for all of Brandy's training. Both her upland and retriever work. I have 4 of these I can stack them or just use them at this height. I also have a 1" thick board that I use. I used marine plywood faces with 2" foam board in the middle, covered with boat carpet.


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## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Dauber,
> 
> I just got a chance to read through your experience with the seminar in PA.
> 
> Should have told you to look closely at that jumping fence there is a perfect impression of Brandy's head in that chicken wire.
> 
> Interesting information about the place boards. I have used them for all of Brandy's training. Both her upland and retriever work. I have 4 of these I can stack them or just use them at this height. I also have a 1" thick board that I use. I used marine plywood faces with 2" foam board in the middle, covered with boat carpet.


Thanks IWB! There were a few good crashes on the fence:yikes:, but they all did fine on the second run. Yes I'm completely sold on the place boards, they sure eliminate so many pitfalls that happen along the training route.


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## dauber

Here is a short video of Zac's first water retrieve. He loved the water!! This lake has a very gentle entry and has warmed up rather nicely. We let him play around with Smoke and me in the shallow water and watch Smoke do some swimming retrieves. When I was confident he had swam some and had no fear we set up this retrieve for his first one.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Here is a short video of Zac's first water retrieve. He loved the water!! This lake has a very gentle entry and has warmed up rather nicely. We let him play around with Smoke and me in the shallow water and watch Smoke do some swimming retrieves. When I was confident he had swam some and had no fear we set up this retrieve for his first one.
> 
> Zac's first water retrieve 5-27-13 - YouTube


Nice retrieve Zac! He's looking good dauber. Belle will get her first water retrieve soon. She already romps on the water and loves it. 

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## CDN_Cocker

Great video of Zac. Jake has done quite a bit of retrieving from water already, I use it to cool him down when we're out. He definitely excels in water, I can't keep him out!

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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is a short video of Zac's first water retrieve. He loved the water!! This lake has a very gentle entry and has warmed up rather nicely. We let him play around with Smoke and me in the shallow water and watch Smoke do some swimming retrieves. When I was confident he had swam some and had no fear we set up this retrieve for his first one.
> 
> Zac's first water retrieve 5-27-13 - YouTube


Your on your way, Man! You have a working partner for life..
The "boards" are the berry's whether they are 1 inch thick or a box or table 
All permanent behavior starts and ends on the boards. The number of behaviors that a dog can learn from the boards is only limited by your imagination. Introduce your pup or even your old dog to boards, you'll be glad you did.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Here is a short video of Zac's first water retrieve. He loved the water!! This lake has a very gentle entry and has warmed up rather nicely. We let him play around with Smoke and me in the shallow water and watch Smoke do some swimming retrieves. When I was confident he had swam some and had no fear we set up this retrieve for his first one.
> 
> Zac's first water retrieve 5-27-13 - YouTube


WAY2GO, ZAC and Steve.

Couldn't ask for a better first water retrieve. He's happy and your happy, its ALL GOOD.

NB


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## JAM

Nice work, Zac! Good boy!


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## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Nice retrieve Zac! He's looking good dauber. Belle will get her first water retrieve soon. She already romps on the water and loves it.
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





CDN_Cocker said:


> Great video of Zac. Jake has done quite a bit of retrieving from water already, I use it to cool him down when we're out. He definitely excels in water, I can't keep him out!
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





NATTY BUMPO said:


> WAY2GO, ZAC and Steve.
> Couldn't ask for a better first water retrieve. He's happy and your happy, its ALL GOOD.
> NB


Thanks all! It is fun working with a spirited young fella.



gundogguy said:


> Your on your way, Man! You have a working partner for life..
> The "boards" are the berry's whether they are 1 inch thick or a box or table
> All permanent behavior starts and ends on the boards. The number of behaviors that a dog can learn from the boards is only limited by your imagination. Introduce your pup or even your old dog to boards, you'll be glad you did.


The boxes sure area great tool. I have another couple video's my friend took this weekend while training labs and spaniels. They are longer and taking time to get on youtube.



JAM said:


> Nice work, Zac! Good boy!


Thanks, see you tomorrow. Remember your gun:evil:


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## CDN_Cocker

Anyone got a video of their dog hunting? (Can be a ball or bumper). When jake is hunting for a lost bumper or ball he moves ridiculously fast. I've watched a few youtube videos but rarely see any that look to be going the same speed. Wondering if maybe its just because he's only 5 months or if he's legitimately fast lol. 

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## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> Anyone got a video of their dog hunting? (Can be a ball or bumper). When jake is hunting for a lost bumper or ball he moves ridiculously fast. I've watched a few youtube videos but rarely see any that look to be going the same speed. Wondering if maybe its just because he's only 5 months or if he's legitimately fast lol.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Here's one from last year of my 3 yr old Smoke quartering into a fairly strong face wind.





 

Here's one of my 10 year old Dante quartering.


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## uppower

Wow.....that's impressive! I'm going have to get to work with Hank.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Anyone got a video of their dog hunting? (Can be a ball or bumper). When jake is hunting for a lost bumper or ball he moves ridiculously fast. I've watched a few youtube videos but rarely see any that look to be going the same speed. Wondering if maybe its just because he's only 5 months or if he's legitimately fast lol.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire









dauber said:


> Here's one from last year of my 3 yr old Smoke quartering into a fairly strong face wind.
> 
> Smoke quartering 8 5 12 - YouTube
> 
> 
> Here's one of my 10 year old Dante quartering.
> 
> 
> 
> FBECS training 8/4/12 - YouTube


Good illustration, Will not be long for the Zacster to be doing that same type of work



uppower said:


> Wow.....that's impressive! I'm going have to get to work with Hank.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Steve and Zac working the plan, building together!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Awesome videos!


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## dauber

Here is a video of Smoke beginning some box work. I hadn't used the box too much with him in the past, so am working on getting him going on the box so I have this tool available if I need it.

In this video I throw him a mark, have him move boxes to help develop memory and trust in me. Then send him back to the area without a ball getting him to hunt the area, then toss in the ball behind later so he gets the reward for hunting the area. You will see him look for help and he don't get it from me!


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## I'm with Brandy

Tape a cotton ball over those mics.


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Tape a cotton ball over those mics.



Yea! You live in God's country for St Pete's sake you tell the good Lord you need nice gentle face winds of 4-6 mph. None of gale stuff you have most of the time! Those big head winds make it way to easy to find the birds or balls!
Thanks for the video's just the same!


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## michgundog

I posted this ad for a friend, both of these dogs are steady to wing/shot and deliver their birds to hand super good mouths. Should be real nice pups.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=25649


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## gundogguy

Novice Stake and working gun dog tests are in full swing in the UK.
The Novice stake is an event that is sorely missed her in the USA.
It is an event that the new folks that are interested in training and running dogs at high standards can do so against there peers with dogs and handlers that have not yet place in a AA stake either Amateur or Open.

These fellas pictured are getting a taste of being in the limelight and their dogs a chance to show off their stuff..can they moved to AA.... time will tell.
One thing is for certain without the chance at a Novice stake and placement most assuredly they would not.
Personally I think a way to build interest in the Spaniel hunt test program and this concept would be to offer a AV Novice Stake field trial at the Test weekend. If there is a time concern, eliminate one of the test classes to make room for a AV Spaniel Novice stake field trial series.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Novice Stake and working gun dog tests are in full swing in the UK.
> The Novice stake is an event that is sorely missed her in the USA.
> It is an event that the new folks that are interested in training and running dogs at high standards can do so against there peers with dogs and handlers that have not yet place in a AA stake either Amateur or Open.
> 
> These fellas pictured are getting a taste of being in the limelight and their dogs a chance to show off their stuff..can they moved to AA.... time will tell.
> One thing is for certain without the chance at a Novice stake and placement most assuredly they would not.
> Personally I think a way to build interest in the Spaniel hunt test program and this concept would be to offer a AV Novice Stake field trial at the Test weekend. If there is a time concern, eliminate one of the test classes to make room for a AV Spaniel Novice stake field trial series.


Sounds like a good idea, the Junior would have to be eliminated. Most of the junior dogs we had this year could have ran in the senior level. I know a couple real good AA handlers that started in junior tests. Do you know if the AKC allows that type of format(novice stakes)? 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Sounds like a good idea, the Junior would have to be eliminated. Most of the junior dogs we had this year could have ran in the senior level. I know a couple real good AA handlers that started in junior tests. Do you know if the AKC allows that type of format(novice stakes)?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I'm not sure if you would just eliminate Junior per say. How many times in the last 5 yrs has a Pro shown up at a test with that many entry's and in Jr...may never happen again. My question on that deal was what was Jim doing in the Jr level. He had some AA dogs why was not in the Master with them? I would think there are ways to figure the logistics of another stake to run at the same time/place as a test.
Does Southern Mi have a trial license? Well sure they do. Yrs ago George W.and I judged a Novice stake at South Haven Under the old West Michigan license. And besides this not a championship stake,Clubs with a field trial license can literal run any stake they want to. In Canada they refer to this stake as the "Limit" stake.
Heck they could bring back the old shooting dog stake, like back in the 60's, you know handler gunned event. That make the AKC turn *blue*!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> I'm not sure if you would just eliminate Junior per say. How many times in the last 5 yrs has a Pro shown up at a test with that many entry's and in Jr...may never happen again. My question on that deal was what was Jim doing in the Jr level. He had some AA dogs why was not in the Master with them? I would think there are ways to figure the logistics of another stake to run at the same time/place as a test.
> Does Southern Mi have a trial license? Well sure they do. Yrs ago George W.and I judged a Novice stake at South Haven Under the old West Michigan license. And besides this not a championship stake,Clubs with a field trial license can literal run any stake they want to. In Canada they refer to this stake as the "Limit" stake.
> Heck they could bring back the old shooting dog stake, like back in the 60's, you know handler gunned event. That make the AKC turn *blue*!


I can bring it up sounds like a great idea. I know a few yrs back we kicked around the idea of adding the WD and WDX tests into our hunt test day. I believe Jim just wants to expose the dogs to the environment so they're ready for trials. All his dogs he ran were really, really good. I help plant in the junior field and was really impressed. 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I can bring it up sounds like a great idea. I know a few yrs back we kicked around the idea of adding the WD and WDX tests into our hunt test day. I believe Jim just wants to expose the dogs to the environment so they're ready for trials. All his dogs he ran were really, really good. I help plant in the junior field and was really impressed.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Holy Cr-p. :yikes::lol: WD and WDX that's going backwards. It would be alot more cost effective to send the ribbons out when folks send their entry's in save money on birds and judges:lol::lol: Talk about a merit badge program.
The Novice stake is a bridge to AA not to the sand box! Toughen the standards do not diminish the standards!


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## dauber

What are some of the Novice rules? Are they run in brace? How many series? Maybe that is something that could be run on a water day? 

I think it would be a good idea to have s step between puppy stakes and AA.


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## gundogguy

http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RFTSPN.pdf
SECTION 16. 
A 
Novice Stake
 at a Spaniel field trial 
shall be for dogs over six months of age that have never 
won first, second, third or fourth in an Open All-Age 
Stake, a Qualified Open All-Age or an Amateur All-Age 
Stake or first in any other regular stake.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Brace,multiple series, pheasants All age standards just with unproven dogs running against each other. Unproven from the stand point that they have not previously place in trial. Proper dog work is the rule just like any other trial It's up to the judges which dog was most proper!

Now understand there is a diminishing return of entrys in the market.
Once you place that dog has to move on or move out. Logistics are critical..
For example the cocker communty struggles for numbers in the Amatuer stakes, yet in some areas the hold an Amateur and an Open, the same weekend.

My thinking here is that as a way to build interest in the Hunt Test program 
The same way that the Retriever culture runs QUAL's ( Qualifier stake which is their Novice stake) in conjunction with the Master retriever test.

Also there is some interest in the minor breeds having a 'trial" program, this would give them a chance to run a competitive win take all stake instead of pass/fail. Win take always improves the dogs ..Breeding and training..
Of course there will be those want no part of the process and that's fine it is a kind of new line of thought for the test culture

Dauber... What is a Water Day?


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Dauber... What is a Water Day?


I was thinking like the "water cert" day SEMI is holding in August. 

Now I get your drift on the hunt test tag along. Interesting idea.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I was thinking like the "water cert" day SEMI is holding in August.
> 
> Now I get your drift on the hunt test tag along. Interesting idea.


Sure it could be held in conjunction with Water *Cert* day. Separate premium separate judges and so on. 
I do not believe there would have to be an Open stake run as is the case of a regular trial week end. some legal eagles might get me there though.
As far championships are concerned the Open has to be completed before the Amateur is run for the whole darn mess to actually count as far the AKC and Parent club are concerned.
The Novice is not a championship stake. it is step up from the Puppy stake.
Might be fun to run one under "mock trial" environment!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Holy Cr-p. :yikes::lol: WD and WDX that's going backwards. It would be alot more cost effective to send the ribbons out when folks send their entry's in save money on birds and judges:lol::lol: Talk about a merit badge program.
> The Novice stake is a bridge to AA not to the sand box! Toughen the standards do not diminish the standards!


Good points. I should've explained myself better the last time we talked about adding anything to our current test or trials were the WD and WDX tests. But that's been several years now and quite frankly there were only a couple people wanted to do it. I like the idea of the novice stake much better trust me.


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## dauber

I was just thinking there might already be a good base of judges available at the water cert. This might be a good stepping stone for developing judges as well. 

Would there be time to run 3 series of novice during a hunt test? or would it have to be on another day?


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## CDN_Cocker

Here's a couple videos of Jake just doing some fun retrieves, no real training yet. Takes a rough line in one of them but corrects himself. You might want to turn your speakers down, in the one my daughter is talking and the dachshund is yipping like an idiot. Sorry for the poor angles, its taken on my phone.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> I was just thinking there might already be a good base of judges available at the water cert. This might be a good stepping stone for developing judges as well.
> 
> Would there be time to run 3 series of novice during a hunt test? or would it have to be on another day?


It would be tough to pull off at a hunt test, but a separate event may be doable. Local judges would be a lot more cost effective. I believe SMSSTC will be holding a seminar for hunt test judges this year. I can double check and post the information. Possible locations would be of course in SE Mich and closer to the OH border?? 


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Here's a couple videos of Jake just doing some fun retrieves, no real training yet. Takes a rough line in one of them but corrects himself. You might want to turn your speakers down, in the one my daughter is talking and the dachshund is yipping like an idiot. Sorry for the poor angles, its taken on my phone.
> 
> Water retrieve 29-may-2013 - YouTube
> 
> Water Retrieve - working English cocker pup - YouTube


Looking good!! Thanks for sharing. 


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## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> Here's a couple videos of Jake just doing some fun retrieves, no real training yet. Takes a rough line in one of them but corrects himself. You might want to turn your speakers down, in the one my daughter is talking and the dachshund is yipping like an idiot. Sorry for the poor angles, its taken on my phone.


Jake is looking good. Thanks for the vids!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I was just thinking there might already be a good base of judges available at the water cert. This might be a good stepping stone for developing judges as well.
> 
> Would there be time to run 3 series of novice during a hunt test? or would it have to be on another day?


Judges should be a *trial* judges not test judges. So most likely they would Springer or Cocker field trialers
Aand of course there would be time. This stake will never bust the seems the same way a Open or Amateur does..It is not a champion stake it is a *bridge* stake to the all-age, The same way that the Puppie stake is now.
The difference these would be dog that are to old for the puppie and possible not ready for the prime time events. If it works it works because it is run in conjunction with the hunt test weekend.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Judges should be a *trial* judges not test judges. So most likely they would Springer or Cocker field trialers
> Aand of course there would be time. This stake will never bust the seems the same way a Open or Amateur does..It is not a champion stake it is a *bridge* stake to the all-age, The same way that the Puppie stake is now.
> The difference these would be dog that are to old for the puppie and possible not ready for the prime time events. If it works it works because it is run in conjunction with the hunt test weekend.


Do you see this as a requirement to "qualify" for the AA? Or just an option for some of us who aren't too comfortable with running trials? 

I can see some problems for clubs that are already worked to the edge to just hold a HT having to also organize 2 more judges, more guns, birds, planters, shaggers, marshal, and entries. 

I like the idea of a "bridge" stake (not sure how many are like me though) since I do not see myself traveling all over to trial, so gaining experience will be difficult running one weekend of trials a year.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Do you see this as a requirement to "qualify" for the AA? Or just an option for some of us who aren't too comfortable with running trials?
> 
> I can see some problems for clubs that are already worked to the edge to just hold a HT having to also organize 2 more judges, more guns, birds, planters, shaggers, marshal, and entries.
> 
> I like the idea of a "bridge" stake (not sure how many are like me though) since I do not see myself traveling all over to trial, so gaining experience will be difficult running one weekend of trials a year.


No... this a a completely optional stake, as is the Puppie Stake.
My intent in bringing this concept was to brain storm if you will other options of promoting Spaniel activities for Spaniels. It sure beats what the AKC has done recently. 
Sure are there obstacles.. you bet! People would have to change their thinking this is not new stuff This is just a different approach. This Novice stake is not a stand alone weekend event.. It is a stake for the Dog that has no placements in AA. 
For example at the recent SM hunt test there were 6 dogs entered on Sat in the Master 5 of which were Spaniels. That left a well populated JR level test and an average number of Senior dogs There were 2 sets of judges correct.
Cancel the Master offer a trial format to those that would to compete vs Test.. No water no hunt deads you got guns you have judges and quite possible pick up more than 5 spaniels for a trial format VS Test. It is non-championship event, but it is a trial format run all-breed spaniels in the stake. If it had been run there would have been Springers, Cockers and Field Spaniels present. and I guarantee you K Balinsky Field Spaniel would run a trial format in a heartbeat. Karlovic would have entered even more dogs and quite possible other trialers in the state would have used the format to bring out their young dogs.. Trial experience just the going to and participating cannot be discounted.

Hey concerning travel, Wisconsin and Michigan are all with in your range Maybe 1 less weekend with the Burbot is called for:lol:


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> No... this a a completely optional stake, as is the Puppie Stake.
> My intent in bringing this concept was to brain storm if you will other options of promoting Spaniel activities for Spaniels. It sure beats what the AKC has done recently.
> Sure are there obstacles.. you bet! People would have to change their thinking this is not new stuff This is just a different approach. This Novice stake is not a stand alone weekend event.. It is a stake for the Dog that has no placements in AA.
> For example at the recent SM hunt test there were 6 dogs entered on Sat in the Master 5 of which were Spaniels. That left a well populated JR level test and an average number of Senior dogs There were 2 sets of judges correct.
> Cancel the Master offer a trial format to those that would to compete vs Test.. No water no hunt deads you got guns you have judges and quite possible pick up more than 5 spaniels for a trial format VS Test. It is non-championship event, but it is a trial format run all-breed spaniels in the stake. If it had been run there would have been Springers, Cockers and Field Spaniels present. and I guarantee you K Balinsky Field Spaniel would run a trial format in a heartbeat. Karlovic would have entered even more dogs and quite possible other trialers in the state would have used the format to bring out their young dogs.. Trial experience just the going to and participating cannot be discounted.
> 
> Hey concerning travel, Wisconsin and Michigan are all with in your range Maybe 1 less weekend with the Burbot is called for:lol:


I'm starting to get your drift...I think. Showing off what trialing is about to the HT crowd and others who might not want to take part in spaniel trials, and allow some of the "other" spaniel breeds a chance to see what a trial is. 

Are you looking at this as a one time thing? Or a once a year thing? I would be interested in this as long as it isn't hunting season. That would get me more chances to trial without interfering with more hunting. I can ice fish burbot all winter for the entry fee's for 1 weekend of trials!


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## JAM

CDN_Cocker said:


> Here's a couple videos of Jake just doing some fun retrieves, no real training yet. Takes a rough line in one of them but corrects himself. You might want to turn your speakers down, in the one my daughter is talking and the dachshund is yipping like an idiot. Sorry for the poor angles, its taken on my phone.


Love the videos! I had forgotten how fun it is to watch the "puppy paddle" with front feet splashing all the way to the bumper. He was starting to flatten out on his return. Your daughter seems to be really enjoying the training, too. Good job!


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## JAM

dauber said:


> I'm starting to get your drift...I think. Showing off what trialing is about to the HT crowd and others who might not want to take part in spaniel trials, and allow some of the "other" spaniel breeds a chance to see what a trial is.
> 
> Are you looking at this as a one time thing? Or a once a year thing? I would be interested in this as long as it isn't hunting season. That would get me more chances to trial without interfering with more hunting. I can ice fish burbot all winter for the entry fee's for 1 weekend of trials!


This sounds like fun for new people. I know Tilden Valley is too small to ever put on something like that. We have never done hunt tests, either. 

One thing that came to mind is that in AKC Agility Trials, if the handler has titled a dog that handler - no matter the dog's experience - can no longer run any dog as a "beginner" or in an "A" class. They have the same courses for handlers that have titled dogs but they run in the "B" class so they run against experienced handlers like themselves. I would imagine that those rules would apply to a "novice" trial, too. 

I thought the MHX test sounded quite difficult and interesting. You had to run a brace, double water marks, and a difficult blind. I think little Brandy and Doug could nail that test. I'm not so sure if my dogs could do it.


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> No... this a a completely optional stake, as is the Puppie Stake.
> My intent in bringing this concept was to brain storm if you will other options of promoting Spaniel activities for Spaniels. It sure beats what the AKC has done recently.
> Sure are there obstacles.. you bet! People would have to change their thinking this is not new stuff This is just a different approach. This Novice stake is not a stand alone weekend event.. It is a stake for the Dog that has no placements in AA.
> For example at the recent SM hunt test there were 6 dogs entered on Sat in the Master 5 of which were Spaniels. That left a well populated JR level test and an average number of Senior dogs There were 2 sets of judges correct.
> Cancel the Master offer a trial format to those that would to compete vs Test.. No water no hunt deads you got guns you have judges and quite possible pick up more than 5 spaniels for a trial format VS Test. It is non-championship event, but it is a trial format run all-breed spaniels in the stake. If it had been run there would have been Springers, Cockers and Field Spaniels present. and I guarantee you K Balinsky Field Spaniel would run a trial format in a heartbeat. Karlovic would have entered even more dogs and quite possible other trialers in the state would have used the format to bring out their young dogs.. Trial experience just the going to and participating cannot be discounted.
> 
> Hey concerning travel, Wisconsin and Michigan are all with in your range Maybe 1 less weekend with the Burbot is called for:lol:


I like the idea, I think it's much better than the MHX idea or even skipping MH altogether for people more interested doing AA events. I will run the idea by 'the powers that be' at SMSSTC. I don't see it happening during a hunt test weekend though. Judge costs would be tough to recoup. Which is why we're trying to build up a good local base of judges. 


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----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I thought the MHX test sounded quite difficult and interesting. You had to run a brace, double water marks, and a difficult blind. I think little Brandy and Doug could nail that test. I'm not so sure if my dogs could do it.



The best I can tell the MHX or "Beyond Master" type test is dead in the water.
Interestingly enough, Canadian Master Hunt Test criteria *are those skil*l *levels* that the AKC and various Parent Clubs discussed as Master Excellent.

Instead what has transpired is a set-up for folks with titled dogs to run at or below the dogs achieved level of proficiency.. For some form of "extra" credit or something. My eyes glazed over when i read that announcement from the powers to be.
Kinda like letting little Johnnie repeat 9th grade after being passed on to high school!:lol:


----------



## I'm with Brandy

The interesting thing I noticed about Spaniel hunt test is how many people run Jr. and Sr. but won't run Master. I have asked people at hunt test why they won't run Master and they all say the same thing steadiness. They don't want to put the work into it or they don't think their dog will be able to be that steady. I have also seen many people struggle with the water work. Clubs should think about putting on seminars targeted at the hunt test and cover training tips for things like the water blind and steadiness.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> The interesting thing I noticed about Spaniel hunt test is how many people run Jr. and Sr. but won't run Master. I have asked people at hunt test why they won't run Master and they all say the same thing steadiness. They don't want to put the work into it or they don't think their dog will be able to be that steady. I have also seen many people struggle with the water work. Clubs should think about putting on seminars targeted at the hunt test and cover training tips for things like the water blind and steadiness.


Excellent observation!

Its a lot of work Doug this same situation exist over in the pointing dog hunt test world..Lots of JH and SH a few Master dogs.

Having conducted training classes and private lessons for some 25 yrs I see a lot of different reasons that folks participate in the process of testing and trialing. During that time I have had a hand either training the dogs and/or instructing the handlers at the advanced levels of testing, and it is surprising to me to see what motivations are at work.
Especially when after a period of time a dog makes a level of testing and the client will remain at that "comfort level"

Clubs do regularly meet. However the emphasis is usally on trialing. so Steadiness is a major factor. However handlers have to "get it' by observing normally Clubs will only offer cursory information concerning modifying a behavior. Water work is fairly non existent in the clubs that i'm familar with. and if it available spaniel folks have not figure out how to deal with water problems the way Retriever trainers have.


----------



## uppower

Ok guys so I'm focusing on waterfowl first here. My Spaniel retrieves well to hand in water or on land. Knows sit, stay, heel...exc to voice whistle. I am beginning to teach hand signals. I could use some pointers here. Basically working the T drill out of the book that was suggested. (Hup). Also when do you move these things to water? If I whistle on a retrieve should he turn to me? If all these questions get to much feel free to say so! Thanks


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## gundogguy

uppower said:


> Ok guys so I'm focusing on waterfowl first here. My Spaniel retrieves well to hand in water or on land. Knows sit, stay, heel...exc to voice whistle. I am beginning to teach hand signals. I could use some pointers here. Basically working the T drill out of the book that was suggested. (Hup). Also when do you move these things to water? If I whistle on a retrieve should he turn to me? If all these questions get to much feel free to say so! Thanks
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Upland Game hunting, Dogs and dog training!

Not really knowing where you are at in the training process.
see if this link will help i the beginning of teaching hand signals.
I personally donot know very many spaniel folks that use this system but it is an excellent way to approach introductory handling for giving your dog hand signals






Chances are you should have force fetch and collar conditioning done before starting these drills.


----------



## gundogguy

uppower said:


> Thanks for the advice guys! It's my first run at owning a dog...I can use all the help I can get.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



At a boy! Hang in there. you should really check this out..right in your neighborhood. And just the information that you need!

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466452


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> At a boy! Hang in there. you should really check this out..right in your neighborhood. And just the information that you need!
> 
> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466452


 
Great group of people putting it on with lots of knowledge to help you out with the blind retrieve stuff you are talking about!! Highly recommend you get hold of them even if you don't want to hunt test, but just want to train.


----------



## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> At a boy! Hang in there. you should really check this out..right in your neighborhood. And just the information that you need!
> 
> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466452


Saw Tera Lanczak of Bay Blue Kennels at the Northern MI Outdoors Expo in Cheboygan. It was really cool to watch how she works the dogs.


----------



## yooperguy

Yesterday was a great day for me and my Belle dog. We got together with dauber and Mrs. dauber for some training, clay pigeon shooting, and some general dog time and camaraderie.










Belle is introduced to the "place" box.









Belle is sent for the retrieve.









Here she comes with a delivery for the boss!









Smoke showing her how it's done.









Belle is introduced to a dead pigeon while the "chain gang" looks on. She wasn't sure what to do with that!



Thank you team dauber for your time and tips for a rookie like me! It was nice to have some idea of where the dog and I stand and I came away with some homework for me and the dog. 

Hie On!!


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Yesterday was a great day for me and my Belle dog. We got together with dauber and Mrs. dauber for some training, clay pigeon shooting, and some general dog time and camaraderie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Belle is introduced to the "place" box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Belle is sent for the retrieve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here she comes with a delivery for the boss!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smoke showing her how it's done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Belle is introduced to a dead pigeon while the "chain gang" looks on. She wasn't sure what to do with that!
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you team dauber for your time and tips for a rookie like me! It was nice to have some idea of where the dog and I stand and I came away with some homework for me and the dog.
> 
> Hie On!!


Thanks for coming out and bringing your daughter and wife too!! Not enough youngsters involved in these outdoors activities and we really welcome them coming too. We had a great afternoon with yous all. Belle is a great moving dog and will be a nice hunter for you. Plus you were a dead-eye on the clays...nice shooting. We look forward to the next get together.


----------



## michgundog

Looks and sounds like you have a great training group Dauber. When are you going to start selling those training platforms? Very nicely done....


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Thanks for coming out and bringing your daughter and wife too!! Not enough youngsters involved in these outdoors activities and we really welcome them coming too. We had a great afternoon with yous all. Belle is a great moving dog and will be a nice hunter for you. Plus you were a dead-eye on the clays...nice shooting. We look forward to the next get together.


Belle's a real looker! Love the pics and the report. Good job everyone.

Yeah... Hie On!


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Thanks for coming out and bringing your daughter and wife too!! Not enough youngsters involved in these outdoors activities and we really welcome them coming too. We had a great afternoon with yous all. Belle is a great moving dog and will be a nice hunter for you. Plus you were a dead-eye on the clays...nice shooting. We look forward to the next get together.


I agree... not enough youngsters getting outdoors these days. I hope that changes... one kid at a time if need be. I'm lucky that my daughter has taken to it.

Shooting clays - thanks! I surprised myself with the number of hits I had! LOL!! My wife called me a show-off afterward. :lol: A bit of luck I'm sure... but it sure made it lot of fun. I'll bring a box of clays next time!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Thanks for coming out and bringing your daughter and wife too!! Not enough youngsters involved in these outdoors activities and we really welcome them coming too. We had a great afternoon with yous all. Belle is a great moving dog and will be a nice hunter for you. Plus you were a dead-eye on the clays...nice shooting. We look forward to the next get together.


Nice Steve and Karen, that's how you build dogs and a culture at the same time. Lots of possibilities in the Upper! 



yooperguy2003 said:


> I agree... not enough youngsters getting outdoors these days. I hope that changes... one kid at a time if need be. I'm lucky that my daughter has taken to it.
> 
> Shooting clays - thanks! I surprised myself with the number of hits I had! LOL!! My wife called me a show-off afterward. :lol: A bit of luck I'm sure... but it sure made it lot of fun. I'll bring a box of clays next time!


 Just a warning ,be careful Dauber's sandbagging:lol:!


----------



## Gavan

Would have loved to have been there, but alas my wife had me trapesing all over Italy and the French Riviera. Oh, the humanity.... I could have had several new dogs, guns and hunting trips with that money. 

Love the tables/place boards you built. I noticed they sit higher than what Dobbs, Breitbarth, et all use. Also noticed that Paul likes to sit on them. Guessing that's one reason they are slightly larger and higher than what I am use to. All I have seen until now have indoor/outdoor carpet on them to help the dog keep from sliding off when jumping on or off. Any reason from Paul on why no carpet?


----------



## JAM

A few pics of Team Dauber working on water retrieves.

First, "Smoke"





































Now, "Zac"

















[/IMG]


----------



## michgundog

Nice pictures JAM, magazine quality!!


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## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> Nice pictures JAM, magazine quality!!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yes - very nice photos indeed!

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----------



## JAM

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I love to take pictures of the dogs working. We did some field training before the water work, but with our small group I have to shoot so don't get a chance for field pics very often.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Thanks for the kind words, guys. I love to take pictures of the dogs working. We did some field training before the water work, but with our small group I have to shoot so don't get a chance for field pics very often.


 
Thanks JAM for the great pictures!! I would have offered to take some of you and Stormy (who had fantastic water entries) except for my propensity to destroy electronic things, and I forgot our camera today. 

Excellent day today training! Thanks for being a deadeye.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> Would have loved to have been there, but alas my wife had me trapesing all over Italy and the French Riviera. Oh, the humanity.... I could have had several new dogs, guns and hunting trips with that money.
> 
> Love the tables/place boards you built. I noticed they sit higher than what Dobbs, Breitbarth, et all use. Also noticed that Paul likes to sit on them. Guessing that's one reason they are slightly larger and higher than what I am use to. All I have seen until now have indoor/outdoor carpet on them to help the dog keep from sliding off when jumping on or off. Any reason from Paul on why no carpet?


 
I don't remember anyone asking about no carpet. But I have found they have adapted well to it, (of course at first they did have some funny slide-bys) and now Zac slows down instead of running right thru me. I haven't painted them yet.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Excellent day today training! Thanks for being a deadeye.


We had fun, too, but "deadeye"? You know what they say... "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then."


----------



## Gavan

bird numbers might be like? weather seems like it hasn't been great for the broods.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> bird numbers might be like? weather seems like it hasn't been great for the broods.


We had a heavy rain last weekend, but very few if any grouse have hatched up here yet, they will get going in the next 7-10 days or so, then the next couple weeks will be key. Woodcock might not have been as lucky.

My drumming route was less than the year before and my woodcock peenting route was more. But the hatch and brood survival will be the key to the fall. July and August will tell us more.

I am hearing some other PA spanielers maybe heading over this way too!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> We had a heavy rain last weekend, but very few if any grouse have hatched up here yet, they will get going in the next 7-10 days or so, then the next couple weeks will be key. Woodcock might not have been as lucky.
> 
> My drumming route was less than the year before and my woodcock peenting route was more. But the hatch and brood survival will be the key to the fall. July and August will tell us more.


Steve,

Are you a believer in the "grouse cycle" theories re fall grouse numbers??

We moved up here in '99 which was the best year for grouse numbers IME since, both here locally and in the Central UP where we hunt every year.

Or do you think it more dependent on, weather during the hatch, predators, and other stuff? Thoughts??

NB


----------



## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> I think most animals tend to cycle. Rabbits are a good example


The rabbits in northern Oakland county must be on an upswing cycle, they're every where!! 


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----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> *AKC Spaniel Field Trial Judging and Handling Seminar*​
> 
> *Presented by the Minnesota Hunting Spaniel Association*​
> 
> 
> *Are you interested in learning more about what judges are looking for in spaniel field trials or do you want to become a field trial judge? Come and participate in a presentation and panel discussion along with an actual hands-on judging experience in the field! *​
> 
> 
> (This is a required seminar to become an AKC spaniel field trial judge for both Springers and English Cockers/Cockers)​
> 
> 
> 
> *Where: Major Ave. Hunt Club - 11721 Major Ave. Glencoe, MN*
> *When: Sunday, July 14, 2013 from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.*
> *Cost: $80.00 (includes lunch)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Moderator: Tom Meyer, AKC Field Representative and senior AKC spaniel FT judge*
> 
> 
> 
> *Panel: Paul McGagh, Jason Givens and Mark Haglin*
> 
> 
> *All three panel members are senior AKC spaniel field trial judges, professional trainers and handlers. Paul handles and trains both English Cockers and Springers, Jason handles and trains Springers and Mark handles and trains Springers and is in charge of the Midwest Interclub Field Trial Gun seminar program. The panel and moderator have judged many national championship field trials and both cocker and springer field trials.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Included in the conversations will be low, medium and high priority attributes of the dogs, technicalities of judging (Judgeâs authority and responsibility, positive vs. negative judging, rule violations, judgeâs discretion) and much more! Bring questions for discussion both as a handler or a judge!*
> 
> 
> 
> *Send a check made out to MHSA for $80.00 by July 6th to:*
> 
> 
> 
> *Bethann Wiley*
> *13733 Square Lake Trail N.*
> *Stillwater, MN 55082*
> *Questions? Email: [email protected] or call 651-214-8301*
> 
> 
> 
> *Lodging: *
> *King Motel â Hutchinson, MN 320-587-4737*
> *AmericInn â Hutchinson, MN 320-587-5515*
> *Best Western Victorian Inn â Hutchinson, MN 320-587-6030*
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Interesting! I might check into the southern Wisconsin one too.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Interesting! I might check into the* southern Wisconsin one too.*




*Is there a Field trial judges and handler's work shop/seminar in Southern Wisconsin? When and where, who would be the contact?*
*Thanks for any info!*


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> [/B]
> 
> *Is there a Field trial judges and handler's work shop/seminar in Southern Wisconsin? When and where, who would be the contact?*
> *Thanks for any info!*


I think it is July 20th. Can't seem to find the email with all the details right now. George Kittle is one of the panel, can't remember the rest. That would probably be a 2 day trip vs a 3 day and 2 motel nights for the Mn one. I think JAM has the details too, maybe she will see this.


----------



## dauber

*FIELD TRIAL JUDGING SEMINAR*

Saturday, July 20, 2013
 
hosted by the Southern Wisconsin Sporting Spaniel Club


Judges Panel: Mhari Peschel, Tom Menzel and George Kittle

Milford Hills Hunt Club, W5670 French Rd, Johnson Creek, WI


Cost: $15.00

Whether you are an aspiring judge, a handler who wants to broaden his/her

understanding of the evaluation process, or merely someone who is interested in lively,

in-depth discussions of various field trial situations, this seminar is for you!

Topics to be covered will include a discussion of the rules as set forth in the AKC rule

book and augmented by the Blue Book; the judges responsibilities/authority vs. the

field trial committee; various methods of scoring and note-taking; how to best work with

a co-judge; how to interpret and judge various scenarios (utilizing field workweather

permittingand/or videos)

In order to serve the breed and those in the sport by maximizing attendance and

informed participation, the only fee is to cover the charges for lunch (applies to all who

attend). We hope to have as many trialers attend as possible to be a part of what will

no doubt be lively discussion!

Please send the attached form and a check for $15.00 per person, payable to SWSSC,

by July 10, 2013 to:

Debbie Schoene

3706 N. Hall Road

Whitewater WI 53190

Motel Accommodations

_These are about 15 minutes from the grounds:_


Days Inn Johnson Creek

W 4545 Linmar Lane, Johnson Creek, WI

920-699-8000 approx. $76/night pet friendly

Americas Best Value Inn

West 7614 Oasis Lane, Lake Mills, WI 53551

920- 648-3800 approx. $70/night pets allowed with fee

Comfort Inn & Suites

725 Paradise Lane, Johnson Creek, WI

Phone: (920) 699-2800 approx. $99/night pet friendly

Please detach and return with payment
 

I/we plan to attend the SWSSC judging seminar on 7/20/13 and enclose $15.00 per person.
 
(Make checks payable to SWSSC)

Name(s)_________________________________________________________________

Contact Info: e-mail______________________________________

Phone______________________________________


Return by July 10th to:



Debbie Schoene

3706 N. Hall Road

Whitewater WI 53190


----------



## michgundog

Thanks for posting dauber


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> *FIELD TRIAL JUDGING SEMINAR*
> 
> Saturday, July 20, 2013
> 
> hosted by the Southern Wisconsin Sporting Spaniel Club
> 
> 
> Judges Panel: Mhari Peschel, Tom Menzel and George Kittle
> 
> Milford Hills Hunt Club, W5670 French Rd, Johnson Creek, WI
> 
> 
> Cost: $15.00
> 
> Whether you are an aspiring judge, a handler who wants to broaden his/her
> 
> understanding of the evaluation process, or merely someone who is interested in lively,
> 
> in-depth discussions of various field trial situations, this seminar is for you!
> 
> Topics to be covered will include a discussion of the rules as set forth in the AKC rule
> 
> book and augmented by the Blue Book; the judges responsibilities/authority vs. the
> 
> field trial committee; various methods of scoring and note-taking; how to best work with
> 
> a co-judge; how to interpret and judge various scenarios (utilizing field workweather
> 
> permittingand/or videos)
> 
> In order to serve the breed and those in the sport by maximizing attendance and
> 
> informed participation, the only fee is to cover the charges for lunch (applies to all who
> 
> attend). We hope to have as many trialers attend as possible to be a part of what will
> 
> no doubt be lively discussion!
> 
> Please send the attached form and a check for $15.00 per person, payable to SWSSC,
> 
> by July 10, 2013 to:
> 
> Debbie Schoene
> 
> 3706 N. Hall Road
> 
> Whitewater WI 53190
> 
> Motel Accommodations
> 
> _These are about 15 minutes from the grounds:_
> 
> 
> Days Inn Johnson Creek
> 
> W 4545 Linmar Lane, Johnson Creek, WI
> 
> 920-699-8000 approx. $76/night pet friendly
> 
> Americas Best Value Inn
> 
> West 7614 Oasis Lane, Lake Mills, WI 53551
> 
> 920- 648-3800 approx. $70/night pets allowed with fee
> 
> Comfort Inn & Suites
> 
> 725 Paradise Lane, Johnson Creek, WI
> 
> Phone: (920) 699-2800 approx. $99/night pet friendly
> 
> Please detach and return with payment
> 
> 
> I/we plan to attend the SWSSC judging seminar on 7/20/13 and enclose $15.00 per person.
> 
> (Make checks payable to SWSSC)
> 
> Name(s)_________________________________________________________________
> 
> Contact Info: e-mail______________________________________
> 
> Phone______________________________________
> 
> 
> Return by July 10th to:
> 
> 
> 
> Debbie Schoene
> 
> 3706 N. Hall Road
> 
> Whitewater WI 53190


Interesting panel in Wisconsin. Cost of doing business in Wisconsin must be extraordinarily low compared to Minnesota!


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

michgundog said:


> Thanks for posting dauber
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Mike

If you want to go to this, let me know. I will go with you. Give me a call.


Jeff


----------



## michgundog

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Mike
> 
> If you want to go to this, let me know. I will go with you. Give me a call.
> 
> 
> Jeff


Sounds like a plan Jeff. I'll call you. There's a water test on Sunday the 21st too. 


Southern Wisconsin Sporting Spaniel Club
Official Premium List, A.K.C. Licensed English Springer Spaniel Field Trial Water Test
Milford Hills Hunt Club W5670 French Road, Johnson Creek WI
Sunday, July 21, 2013 
This event is held under the rules and procedures of the American Kennel Club
Event #2013442001


Schedule
Water test will begin at 8:00 am

Birds/Fees
Ducks or pheasants will be used. Entry fee: $45.00/dog

Judges
Jim Naber Eagle WI
&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;Tom Schoene Whitewater WI

Prizes
Standard A.K.C. Rosettes to all passing dogs.

Entries
All entries with payment MUST be received by the field trial secretary by closing at 5:00 p.m., Wednesday, July 10, 2013. NO phone or faxed or e-mailed entries will be accepted. Checks should be made payable to SWSSC and mailed with entries to:&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203; 
Debbie Schoene, FTS 
3706 N. Hall Road
Whitewater WI 53190
Entries will close and the drawing will take place at the above location at 7:00 pm on July 10, 2013.
Scratches made after closing will be refunded the cost of entry minus a $5.00 AKC recording/club handling fee.

Club Officers & Field Trial Committee
Officers:
Jim Wacker, President: 8724 W. Dogwood Ave., Milwaukee WI 53224
George Reichert, VP: 10313 Saddlebred Trail, Woodstock IL 60098
Debbie Schoene, Secretary: 3706 N. Hall Rd. Whitewater WI 53190
Cathy Lewis, Treasurer: W4423 Hwy. A., Elkhorn WI 53121
Field Trial Committee:
Cathy Lewis, Chairman: W4423 Hwy. A., Elkhorn WI 53121
Debbie Schoene, Secretary: 3706 N. Hall Rd. Whitewater WI 53190
Don Brunn, Linda Budde, Jeff Budde, Pat Hempel, Sue Myers

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----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Sounds like a plan Jeff. I'll call you. There's a water test on Sunday the 21st too.
> 
> 
> Southern Wisconsin Sporting Spaniel Club
> Official Premium List, A.K.C. Licensed English Springer Spaniel Field Trial Water Test
> Milford Hills Hunt Club W5670 French Road, Johnson Creek WI
> Sunday, July 21, 2013
> This event is held under the rules and procedures of the American Kennel Club
> Event #2013442001
> 
> 
> Schedule
> Water test will begin at 8:00 am
> 
> Birds/Fees
> Ducks or pheasants will be used. Entry fee: $45.00/dog
> 
> Judges
> Jim Naber Eagle WI
> &#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;Tom Schoene Whitewater WI
> 
> Prizes
> Standard A.K.C. Rosettes to all passing dogs.
> 
> Entries
> All entries with payment MUST be received by the field trial secretary by closing at 5:00 p.m., Wednesday, July 10, 2013. NO phone or faxed or e-mailed entries will be accepted. Checks should be made payable to SWSSC and mailed with entries to:&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;&#8203;
> Debbie Schoene, FTS
> 3706 N. Hall Road
> Whitewater WI 53190
> Entries will close and the drawing will take place at the above location at 7:00 pm on July 10, 2013.
> Scratches made after closing will be refunded the cost of entry minus a $5.00 AKC recording/club handling fee.
> 
> Club Officers & Field Trial Committee
> Officers:
> Jim Wacker, President: 8724 W. Dogwood Ave., Milwaukee WI 53224
> George Reichert, VP: 10313 Saddlebred Trail, Woodstock IL 60098
> Debbie Schoene, Secretary: 3706 N. Hall Rd. Whitewater WI 53190
> Cathy Lewis, Treasurer: W4423 Hwy. A., Elkhorn WI 53121
> Field Trial Committee:
> Cathy Lewis, Chairman: W4423 Hwy. A., Elkhorn WI 53121
> Debbie Schoene, Secretary: 3706 N. Hall Rd. Whitewater WI 53190
> Don Brunn, Linda Budde, Jeff Budde, Pat Hempel, Sue Myers
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 Field trialers judges forum in July and field trialers water test in July, same weekend. Southern Wisconsin 07/20/21..2013
When is the Southern Mich. field trialers water test again?


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Field trialers judges forum in July and field trialers water test in July, same weekend. Southern Wisconsin 07/20/21..2013
> When is the Southern Mich. field trialers water test again?


I'll try to keep this info current on the TSC2. Thanks 

We will be holding a Water Test at George Kittle's Farm in North Adams, 
MI on August 10th. The event is open to all English Springer Spaniels, 
English Cocker Spaniels, Cocker Spaniels 6 months of age or older.

Our premium and entry forms are now available for download at:

http://www.smsstc.org/watertest/


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I'll try to keep this info current on the TSC2. Thanks
> 
> We will be holding a Water Test at George Kittle's Farm in North Adams,
> MI on August 10th. The event is open to all English Springer Spaniels,
> English Cocker Spaniels, Cocker Spaniels 6 months of age or older.
> 
> Our premium and entry forms are now available for download at:
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/watertest/
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


That's right it was August, Thanks man. We do not need it here but you never know when some one with a Field trial champion pending needs it to finish their title.


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## sgc

Just curious - what does a dog have to be able to do to pass a water test? thanks,


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## gundogguy

sgc said:


> Just curious - what does a dog have to be able to do to pass a water test? thanks,


 
Not much, swim twice and retrieve a bird! 40-60yrds 
Not much more than a Master marked water retrieve, depends on the water that is being used. 
The test is usually the last requirement for Field championship title.
That is why it only open to Springer's and the FBE. and Am. Cockers.
It is a test, dogs either complete it or they do not .There is no placements either pass or fail.


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## sgc

Thanks, Hal.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> That's right it was August, Thanks man. We do not need it here but you never know when some one with a Field trial champion pending needs it to finish their title.


You're welcome. 

I only know of only one in SMSSTC. 


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## CDN_Cocker

Just threw Jake his first dead pigeon and he retrieved it like it was nothing! 

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## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> Just threw Jake his first dead pigeon and he retrieved it like it was nothing!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good to hear! One more step along the trail. Enjoy the hike.


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## CDN_Cocker

There's nothing this pup can't do! (except calm down and sit still for more than 30 seconds hahahahaha)


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Just threw Jake his first dead pigeon and he retrieved it like it was nothing!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


How old is he now? Sounds like he's coming along nicely. 


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> These birds can take as much beating as a wild ring neck, so shoot loads and choke appropriately. Every part of your dogs performance in the field will be tested and proofed by this bird.


I remember seeing a reading how Roy French used them. Your right, not a bird for a pup. There also good for keeping yards free of ticks. 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I remember seeing a reading how Roy French used them. Your right, not a bird for a pup. There also good for keeping yards free of ticks.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
Started using back in the 80's when I heard the Roy and Nellie French were raising them for their Denalisunflow dogs out in Kansas. Just a nice bird to perk a trained dog up a bit. A few guinea's and your spaniel will have no trouble sort out runners. Also will provide a real test of the dogs mouth on the delivery!


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## CDN_Cocker

What age do you guys start teaching heel and when can I start making him sit and wait to get the dummy instead of running in as its thrown? 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Started using back in the 80's when I heard the Roy and Nellie French were raising them for their Denalisunflow dogs out in Kansas. Just a nice bird to perk a trained dog up a bit. A few guinea's and your spaniel will have no trouble sort out runners. Also will provide a real test of the dogs mouth on the delivery!


I've heard all positives about the use of them. The Denalisunflos dogs sure proved they work. 


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> What age do you guys start teaching heel and when can I start making him sit and wait to get the dummy instead of running in as its thrown?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I really don't teach heel, but more of "here" command. My latest pup is 7 months and I just started line steadying him to dummies from the place board. He's hupping on delivery which is a good sign. 


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> What's a cheap easy way to make a place board?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


The one I built in this picture was built from wood I found on the side of the road. 










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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> *What age do you guys start* teaching heel and when can I start making him sit and wait to get the dummy instead of running in as its thrown?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Age is irrelevant! There is however an order of training that is helpful to pup in learning his job. The bigger question is just how much importance one will place on the work the dog is going to be expected to do.

As a general rule for what I do healing becomes ever more important in the dogs life after, HERE, FETCH, HUP , BIRDS, GUNPROOFING.
Now my healing needs are fairly simple, using a slip lead and going to the boards or to a spot in the field that we will begin todays training run.
Each time that occurs there is an ever increasing demand on the dog to walk with me and not walk by itself no lagging no pulling over time.


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## CDN_Cocker

Any of you guys train with the retriever crowd? There's a fairly prominent retriever trialer within half an hour of me who offered me to bring the pup out to his place and work on some basic stuff and help me along the way if I need it. There are no spaniel folks within 3 hours of me so it's quite appealing to me. Just wondering if it is a good idea or not or if the training is too different.


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## gundogguy

[*QUOTE=CDN_Cocker;4659294]Any of you guys train with the retriever crowd?* There's a fairly prominent retriever trialer within half an hour of me who offered me to bring the pup out to his place and work on some basic stuff and help me along the way if I need it. There are no spaniel folks within 3 hours of me so it's quite appealing to me. Just wondering if it is a good idea or not or if the training is too different.[/QUOTE]


Every week I train and advise non-slip retrievers. Every Tuesday evening.

Non-slip and Upland have some very similar aspects to the training early in the pups life. However there come that time when the two venues become very dissimilar..that's not a bad thing it is just a fact. It is just the nature of the "beast". There is an obvious cultural difference between Non-Slip and Upland Flushing dog training

If you have capable help conveniently located I would certainly encourage you to take advantage of it ASAP. It will be a great learning situation for you and your dog.


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## CDN_Cocker

2 place boards built today! One is 24" x 24" and on 2x4s and the other is 30x30 and on 18" legs. I plan on using the higher one to start and going back to just hup/stay. Once I have him staying put on the board for 5-10 mins I'll start letting him retrieve. Until then I am going to focus on being calm and quiet on there. Pretty excited! Can anyone point me towards more training info for them other than McGagh's site?


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## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> [*QUOTE=CDN_Cocker;4659294]Any of you guys train with the retriever crowd?* There's a fairly prominent retriever trialer within half an hour of me who offered me to bring the pup out to his place and work on some basic stuff and help me along the way if I need it. There are no spaniel folks within 3 hours of me so it's quite appealing to me. Just wondering if it is a good idea or not or if the training is too different.
> 
> Every week I train and advise non-slip retrievers. Every Tuesday evening.
> 
> Non-slip and Upland have some very similar aspects to the training early in the pups life. However there come that time when the two venues become very dissimilar..that's not a bad thing it is just a fact. It is just the nature of the "beast". There is an obvious cultural difference between Non-Slip and Upland Flushing dog training
> 
> If you have capable help conveniently located I would certainly encourage you to take advantage of it ASAP. It will be a great learning situation for you and your dog.


Thank you! I will definitely take him up on his offer then.


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> 2 place boards built today! One is 24" x 24" and on 2x4s and the other is 30x30 and on 18" legs. I plan on using the higher one to start and going back to just hup/stay. Once I have him staying put on the board for 5-10 mins I'll start letting him retrieve. Until then I am going to focus on being calm and quiet on there. Pretty excited! Can anyone point me towards more training info for them other than McGagh's site?


Here's a video by Gary Breibarth I believe he and others have a few on here: 

http://www.gundogsonline.com/video/hunting-dog-training/place-board-training-part-1.htm

http://www.gundogsonline.com/video/...-2-the-sit-stay-come-and-go-away-commands.htm

[Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> 2 place boards built today! One is 24" x 24" and on 2x4s and the other is 30x30 and on 18" legs. I plan on using the higher one to start and going back to just hup/stay. Once I have him staying put on the board for 5-10 mins I'll start letting him retrieve. Until then I am going to focus on being calm and quiet on there. Pretty excited! Can anyone point me towards more training info for them other than McGagh's site?






 


CDN_Cocker said:


> *Thank you!* I will definitely take him up on his offer then.


Your Welcome. The old adage do what ever it takes to get the job done!


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## CDN_Cocker

It says that video is private so I cannot view it. Anyways - I have done a couple short sessions with Jake. I never let him get off by himself - I have started on the higher of the 2 boxes and he jumps up when I tell him Place. However when we are done I say "okay" and lift him down just so he knows when he is there he is not to get off. Every time he hops off I run to him and put him back up and he is getting better very quickly. He is now sitting calmly and quietly for about 3 minutes before he starts getting antsy. I have just been working on hup/stay and no distractions other than myself walking around him and farther away from him. Once he is solid on the board for longer periods of time I will start dropping dummies and balls but not allow him to retrieve.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> It says that video is private so I cannot view it. Anyways - I have done a couple short sessions with Jake. I never let him get off by himself - I have started on the higher of the 2 boxes and he jumps up when I tell him Place. However when we are done I say "okay" and lift him down just so he knows when he is there he is not to get off. Every time he hops off I run to him and put him back up and he is getting better very quickly. He is now sitting calmly and quietly for about 3 minutes before he starts getting antsy. I have just been working on hup/stay and no distractions other than myself walking around him and farther away from him. Once he is solid on the board for longer periods of time I will start dropping dummies and balls but not allow him to retrieve.


 
Lets see if this works


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## gundogguy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=fQKZ41C8cp8&NR=1


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## gundogguy




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## CDN_Cocker

Awesome videos!!!!! Here's a couple pics of Jake on the higher place board. Will add in the lower one when he gets comfortable on this one.


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Awesome videos!!!!! Here's a couple pics of Jake on the higher place board. Will add in the lower one when he gets comfortable on this one.


Looking good!! Have fun training. 


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Awesome videos!!!!! Here's a couple pics of Jake on the higher place board. Will add in the lower one when he gets comfortable on this one.


Looking good!! Have fun training. 



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## dauber

JAM and Stormy had a good weekend in Shiocton, Wis. 

2 master passes this weekend!! Congratulations to JAM and Stormy, a little reward for all their hard work. Bet you were a smiling on your way home eh!


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> JAM and Stormy had a good weekend in Shiocton, Wis.
> 
> 2 master passes this weekend!! Congratulations to JAM and Stormy, a little reward for all their hard work.


+1

*BIG CONGRATS* 

WAY2GO, Jam and Stormy!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> JAM and Stormy had a good weekend in Shiocton, Wis.
> 
> 2 master passes this weekend!! Congratulations to JAM and Stormy, a little reward for all their hard work. Bet you were a smiling on your way home eh!


Now your moving on up! Congratulations for Yours and Storm's solid efforts! You must have some pic's???


For some of the forum members that have been to Constantine, Mi and LaubenHaid acres, Maugh Vail get's a shout for completing the requirements for her Blake dog as a new HRC CH. Blake went 6 for 6 over 3 different weekend tests this spring at the Finished level. Maugh's property has been used in the past as site for Cocker spaniel field trials and gundog training in general.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> JAM and Stormy had a good weekend in Shiocton, Wis.
> 
> 2 master passes this weekend!! Congratulations to JAM and Stormy, a little reward for all their hard work. Bet you were a smiling on your way home eh!


Good job to JAM and Stormy!!


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## Jeffrey Towler

Great job Jam!

Regards
JT


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## Jim58

gundogguy said:


> Now your moving on up! Congratulations for Yours and Storm's solid efforts! You must have some pic's???
> 
> 
> For some of the forum members that have been to Constantine, Mi and LaubenHaid acres, Maugh Vail get's a shout for completing the requirements for her Blake dog as a new HRC CH. Blake went 6 for 6 over 3 different weekend tests this spring at the Finished level. Maugh's property has been used in the past as site for Cocker spaniel field trials and gundog training in general.


 
I have enjoyed watching Maugh work her dog in the past and also hearing her explain what the good and bad was of a run. 

Way to go!


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## JAM

dauber said:


> JAM and Stormy had a good weekend in Shiocton, Wis.
> 
> 2 master passes this weekend!! Congratulations to JAM and Stormy, a little reward for all their hard work. Bet you were a smiling on your way home eh!


Thanks guys! Didn't get home until almost 10 PM so just getting online this AM. 2 more passes for the MH title. Hoping it'll be this summer.

Great pics of Jake on the new place boards. He's already looking pretty comfy up there. 

Congrats to Maugh, too.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Now your moving on up! Congratulations for Yours and Storm's solid efforts! You must have some pic's???
> 
> 
> For some of the forum members that have been to Constantine, Mi and LaubenHaid acres, Maugh Vail get's a shout for completing the requirements for her Blake dog as a new HRC CH. Blake went 6 for 6 over 3 different weekend tests this spring at the Finished level. Maugh's property has been used in the past as site for Cocker spaniel field trials and gundog training in general.


 
Good job Blake and Maugh!! Maugh's grounds were outstanding for the cocker trials and I enjoyed planting there. There was talk over the weekend of how much that trial will be missed. Thanks to Maugh and Hal for the use of those grounds over the years.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Now your moving on up! Congratulations for Yours and Storm's solid efforts! You must have some pic's???
> 
> 
> For some of the forum members that have been to Constantine, Mi and LaubenHaid acres, Maugh Vail get's a shout for completing the requirements for her Blake dog as a new HRC CH. Blake went 6 for 6 over 3 different weekend tests this spring at the Finished level. Maugh's property has been used in the past as site for Cocker spaniel field trials and gundog training in general.


Good job Maugh!!


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## I'm with Brandy

Congrats Jam.

I have used platform training for years both with upland and with retriever work. I can see some benefit for a high platform in the beginning but I personally do not use them that high. My platforms are about 5 inches think with a foam board core and covered in boat carpet. I eventually change over to just a carpet sample once the dog understands the concept. I use the same command for a platform as I do the training table and that is the word table. I have 4 platforms since I use them to teach nonslip retriever work too, I need several at one time for teaching t and double t work. I leave the platforms in the dogs outdoor crate so she can lay on them this gives her an added feeling of comfort and familiarity when we use them in the field. I also use them at the retriever line to teach the dog to be steady at the line. One step off the platform before being sent and it back tot he crate.



















I think I might have already posted these pictures sorry about that. I don't visit the board much and forget what I post. Look at computers all day long don't care to be on them at night.

Someone asked about non slip retriever work for spaniels. I train with retrievers on a regular bases more so than I do with spaniels. When I trained with brace mates it was retrievers that subbed in for our brace. I have used a book called Retriever Training for Spaniels http://justduckypublishing.com/. I have also used many other trainers as resources for drills to work on. I typically have to modify the drills since I do not use an E-collar and many of the non slip retriever drills are dependant on the use of an e-collar. I do use a lot of Even Graham's drills from Smart Works.

I think it is important for you to figure out what your end goal is with your non slip work. If you just want to get a Spaniel MH title on your dog then you may not want to put to much work into handling as it can have some adverse effects on things like hunt dead. I was marked lower on a hunt dead because Brandy popped on her way to the area of the hunt. This was due to the fact that the SR dogs ran first half way to the hunt dead so there was an area where birds had been received and dropped on the ground rather than running through this area Brandy stopped and turned looking for a command. She had been trained to run blinds through old marks in her mind this was an intentional scent area and created some confusion and so she sat waiting for me to tell her what to do next. A single back cast to her to the area she needed to be in. Many Master dogs got stuck hunting in that area and had to be pushed back which they were not marked lower for. I also had to come up with a release command for hunt dead since you are not allowed to handle the dog to the bird. In non slip retriever work you handle the dog directly to the bird hunting is not allowed. Two different games and they can cause you problems if you don't find a balance.


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## gundogguy

"
"I think it is important for you to figure out *what your end goal is* with your non slip work. If you just want to get a Spaniel MH title on your dog then you may not want to put to much work into handling as it can have some adverse effects on things like hunt dead. I was marked lower on a hunt dead because Brandy popped on her way to the area of the hunt"

Nice explanation Doug!
Clarity in the goal is very important. If the handler is confused or unsure of the direction they are headed, imagine the confusion in the dogs mind. 

Personally I do not mix venue's with me own dogs. I have the ability to do It and have helped many folks over the years with their own dogs enjoy a variety of dog disciplines.
Personally I receive much more satisfaction from gaining knowledge as to just how efficient my dog can be at just one activity then be a "jack of all trades', so to speak. 
Find'em flush'em fetch'em with manners is enough to keep me occupied, as far as spaniels are concerned.


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## JAM

Had to get a picture but had to wait till we got home.


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## michgundog

JAM said:


> Had to get a picture but had to wait till we got home.


Congratulations!!!!! Good luck in the future


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## dauber

JAM said:


> Had to get a picture but had to wait till we got home.


 
What a gooood boy Stormy!!


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## JAM

Thanks guys! Still need 2 passes for the title.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Stormy looks pretty dang pleased with his self. Just as he should be!
NB


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## dauber

JAM said:


> Thanks guys! Still need 2 passes for the title.


 
When it happens JAM that will be something to be REALLY proud of! You will have Master titles on 2 very different dogs a huge testament to your training abilities!! We're proud of you!!

The boys are on the chain gang...Zac is about to get a fly away to see how he is maturing...


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## michgundog

JAM said:


> Thanks guys! Still need 2 passes for the title.


I heard there's some test coming up in OH in August or perhaps Sept. When I know the date for sure I'll post it here. Good luck with your next 2 passes. 


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## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Had to get a picture but had to wait till we got home.


Great looking photo as usual. Congrats on your achievements!


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Had to get a picture but had to wait till we got home.


Nice! Thanks for sharing your success.
As you know there are a couple of test weekends in Wisc August and Sept. No reason to go all the way to the armpit of the Midwest!


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## CDN_Cocker

Well just tried to introduce Jake to a bird. I taped one of its wings and threw it for him as a retrieve. He was right after it but the tape came off and the bird flew away! What a fail!!!! So I have pulled the flight feathers on one wing of another one and will try it in a bit. I was really hoping that he would've been able to retrieve his first one!


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## dauber

Take duct tape and wrap it all the way around the bird holding both wings down. If he gets slapped around in the face you may spend the rest of his life messing with mouth problems and bird shyness. Take baby steps!!! It is not a race.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Well just took Jake out with the CC and did a retrieve with a dead bird and this time he was fine. Came right back - mouthing it a bit but I think that's because it has been used a few times (time to throw it out). I got on the ground instead of expecting him to jump back up on the place board with it, I think this is what made the difference. Might try a clip or lock wing later, going to see how the rest of his day goes.





dauber said:


> Here is a vid of Zac when he was 4 months old. Re-watching it again I can see he was actually a little overwhelmed just being outside retrieving the ball. This was one of his first times using the board outside. You can see he was also overwhelmed with the dead bird. At this point he went back to a steady diet of balls/dummies/dokens until he was very sound with them before trying the dead bird again.
> 
> All you are trying to accomplish with the dead birds and clips right now is an introduction to them. Once that objective is met I would go back to the basics off the board like come, sit, good snapping deliveries on the retrieve, beginning line steadiness off the board, hold of the balls/bumpers/dokens. Then when he is an "old pro" at all that able to preform with various people watching, at various places and with various people handling him he will be ready to move on to using dead birds and clips in quartering.
> 
> Zac 1 4 13 - YouTube





CDN_Cocker said:


> *Yeah my plan is just to introduce him to a couple clips and fly aways,* just to get his prey drive up while he's young, then going back to basic obedience. Not planning on starting any real hunting training yet, I just want him exposed to birds that's all.





CDN_Cocker said:


> *Well just tried to introduce Jake to a bird. I taped one of its wings and threw it for him as a retrieve. He was right after it but the tape came off and the bird flew away! What a fail!!!!* So I have pulled the flight feathers on one wing of another one and will try it in a bit. I was really hoping that he would've been able to retrieve his first one!





dauber said:


> Take duct tape and wrap it all the way around the bird holding both wings down. If he gets slapped around in the face you may spend the rest of his life messing with mouth problems and bird shyness. Take baby steps!!! It is not a race.


And this was all done insight of what 1 or 2 days, I'll have to check the time line of this entertaining activity.

Well you can lead'em to water!! for sure, just cannot make'em drink!

Time line checked all this exposure in less than a day! Wow!

No wondercrazy stuff happens.
I think Einstein said it best " The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results" or something like that.
Always remember this one important fact of the dog training nature and it can not be refuted. We all get the dog we deserve in the end!!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

He has been retrieving dead birds for a couple weeks he just had a brain fart yesterday. The reason I am going so fast is that he is almost 6 months old and I just want to get him introduced to birds. I currently have 4 feral pigeons in a pet carrier so I only plan on keeping them a week before I let them go (as fly aways). I want to use them while I have them. I don't plan on keeping up with the bird work till later on as my focus will be on obedience the next month or 2, just want to get him some exposure... Anyways, here's the video of my fail. After it went through the hedge it flew away - 




Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Here is a vid of Zac when he was 4 months old. Re-watching it again I can see he was actually a little overwhelmed just being outside retrieving the ball. This was one of his first times using the board outside. You can see he was also overwhelmed with the dead bird. At this point he went back to a steady diet of balls/dummies/dokens until he was very sound with them before trying the dead bird again.
> 
> All you are trying to accomplish with the dead birds and clips right now is an introduction to them. Once that objective is met I would go back to the basics off the board like come, sit, good snapping deliveries on the retrieve, beginning line steadiness off the board, hold of the balls/bumpers/dokens. Then when he is an "old pro" at all that able to preform with various people watching, at various places and with various people handling him he will be ready to move on to using dead birds and clips in quartering.
> 
> Zac 1 4 13 - YouTube


OK - I need some help seeing where Zac is overwhelmed by the ball. I can see what you're saying about being overwhelmed by the pigeon. I didn't notice that when you first posted the video tho. Was too green then. 

If this was a video of my dog, I wouldn't have thought that the ball was overwhelming. What am I missing? 

BTW - I'm not trying to say that I think he wasn't overwhelmed. I'm just trying to figure out why I can't see it! 

Thanks!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> OK - I need some help seeing where Zac is overwhelmed by the ball. I can see what you're saying about being overwhelmed by the pigeon. I didn't notice that when you first posted the video tho. Was too green then.
> 
> If this was a video of my dog, I wouldn't have thought that the ball was overwhelming. What am I missing?
> 
> BTW - I'm not trying to say that I think he wasn't overwhelmed. I'm just trying to figure out why I can't see it!
> 
> Thanks!
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


YG,
It is at about the 33 second mark where he veered off and smelled something else on his first retrieve. It is nothing terrible, but shows he wasn't underwhelmed by the task. If he had done both of the tennis ball retrieves like the second one you might think he is underwhelmed especially if he had done 2 real good retrieves for 5 or 7 days in a row. 

My biggest mistake that day was doing the dead bird retrieve, this was one of his first days working outside off the board, it was taking 2 steps up and he showed it right away. The key is to recognize it and not continuing to overwhelm. Many times it is the pup just needs to mature and it never hurts to have the basics down even better.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> YG,
> It is at about the 33 second mark where he veered off and smelled something else on his first retrieve. It is nothing terrible, but shows he wasn't underwhelmed by the task. If he had done both of the tennis ball retrieves like the second one you might think he is underwhelmed especially if he had done 2 real good retrieves for 5 or 7 days in a row.
> 
> My biggest mistake that day was doing the dead bird retrieve, this was one of his first days working outside off the board, it was taking 2 steps up and he showed it right away. The key is to recognize it and not continuing to overwhelm. Many times it is the pup just needs to mature and it never hurts to have the basics down even better.


Thanks dauber. I see it now. Very subtle...

Recognition of the situation... I know it's an important component of working with the dog. 


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> YG,
> It is at about the 33 second mark where he veered off and smelled something else on his first retrieve. It is nothing terrible, but shows he wasn't underwhelmed by the task. If he had done both of the tennis ball retrieves like the second one you might think he is underwhelmed especially if he had done 2 real good retrieves for 5 or 7 days in a row.
> 
> My biggest mistake that day was doing the dead bird retrieve, this was one of his first days working outside off the board, it was taking 2 steps up and he showed it right away. The key is to recognize it and not continuing to overwhelm. Many times it is the pup just needs to mature and it never hurts to have the basics down even better.





yooperguy2003 said:


> Thanks dauber. I see it now. Very subtle...
> 
> Recognition of the situation... I know it's an important component of working with the dog.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


If I might add....There was the subtle read at the 33-35 second mark and again at the 1:33 mark with the dead bird. These reads are very subtle however extremely important.

One of the thing that I learned from my Non-slip retriever friends is that you want your dog to be'" going out in style and coming back in momentum" When your dog is in style and momentum he is underwhelmed by the factors and the job at hand. If style and momentum are not present then conflict, confusion and the beginning of avoidance are sure to follow. 
The activity that we call dog training allows us the benefit of learning how to read each dog we are working with. These place board training exercises really do make it possible to read the dogs slightest intentions.
Those intentions are usually in the form of 2 different ego states, if you will, pleasure or fear. when read pleasure add complication to the dogs routine, when read fear slow down allow the dog to learn how to over come the conflict, by building confidence.


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## gundogguy

super moon light that is!

Great shot by Julianne Wallace.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> super moon light that is!
> 
> Great shot by Julianne Wallace.


Great picture Hal! Zeta looks like a powerhouse. 


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> super moon light that is!
> 
> Great shot by Julianne Wallace.


Nice!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> super moon light that is!
> 
> Great shot by Julianne Wallace.


Great picture Hal! Zeta looks like a powerhouse. 


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## gundogguy

This the raw material that a many get to start get to start with! Zeta, 2 days old

11 months later...my the time flies


This is why the basics are so important you only have a short window to lay the foundation


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## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> This the raw material that a many get to start get to start with! Zeta, 2 days old
> 
> 11 months later...my the time flies
> 
> 
> This is why the basics are so important you only have a short window to lay the foundation


Point taken. And a good point too. Speaking for myself... This is where I (as a noob) find conflict and sometimes stress. It is hard to remember sometimes that training my dog is not a race when I'm also conscious of the short window to lay the foundation.

Never the less... I am enjoying teaching my dog. And I'm enjoying learning how to teach. 

Beautiful photos of Zeta Hal. The first made my wife say "awww" and the second made me say "ooh cool!"




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## gundogguy

yooperguy2003 said:


> Point taken. And a good point too. Speaking for myself... This is where I (as a noob) find conflict and sometimes stress. It is hard to remember sometimes that training my dog is not a race when I'm also conscious of the short window to lay the foundation.
> 
> Never the less... I am enjoying teaching my dog. And I'm enjoying learning how to teach.
> 
> Beautiful photos of Zeta Hal. The first made my wife say "awww" and the second made me say "ooh cool!"
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Staying on the track that Dauber the U.P. training group will show you,
will help reduce your conflict and stress.

That track will lead you to a good place with your dog and that's why the stress and conflict will be reduced!


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## CDN_Cocker

Took the pups out this morning before it got too hot... Still died from the humidity. Went for a short walk and spent most of the time letting them take a swim (well Lily waded around a bit in it and Jake hammered retrieves).


Out for a run - couldn't see the pic on my phone so didn't realize it wasn't zoomed in:









Now at home in front of me, Jake's actually sitting still lol:


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## Gavan

planning to have a mock trial in conjunction with the Water Test in August?


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## michgundog

Gavan said:


> planning to have a mock trial in conjunction with the Water Test in August?


Are you speaking of the water test SMSSTC is putting on in Hillsdale? 


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## CDN_Cocker

Success today! Did 2 retrieves with a clip wing back to place board! Video to follow...


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## michgundog

"Staying on the track that Dauber the U.P. training group will show you,
will help reduce your conflict and stress."

Here's a picture from yesterday SMSSTC. Doing honoring and steady drills. Hard to do by yourself, but with a group works great.


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## gundogguy

of a painting of a nice little FB pup. The artist was Diego Velasquez,
painted in 1630AD.
Seems to me if you breed for function, form does not change much at all. 
Pup reminded Nancy and I of babies we breed for the last 30 yrs.
and the FB spaniel had been in Spain for at least 300 yrs prior to this painting


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> of a painting of a nice little FB pup. The artist was Diego Velasquez,
> painted in 1630AD.
> Seems to me if you breed for function, form does not change much at all.
> Pup reminded Nancy and I of babies we breed for the last 30 yrs.
> and the FB spaniel had been in Spain for at least 300 yrs prior to this painting


Very cool!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> of a painting of a nice little FB pup. The artist was Diego Velasquez,
> painted in 1630AD.
> Seems to me if you breed for function, form does not change much at all.
> Pup reminded Nancy and I of babies we breed for the last 30 yrs.
> and the FB spaniel had been in Spain for at least 300 yrs prior to this painting


Yes that is a fine looking spaniel and still is today.

Hal mentioned a few pages back that July and August is when champions are made...well conditions sure can be tough now with the reed canary grass 4-6 feet tall, hot, and very tough scenting. Sure is a great chance for the spaniels to hone their skills in scenting and finding. Now is the time to train for a successful fall season.


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## Gavan

Gavan needs one point for AFC and water tests are few and far between. I'm hoping to combine some bracework training with the test.


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## michgundog

Gavan said:


> Gavan needs one point for AFC and water tests are few and far between. I'm hoping to combine some bracework training with the test.


We'll have a good day of training and dogs to brace with. Do you know of anyone else from PA that's coming? You train with Jeff Brooks, right? 


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## Gavan

Valley Forge held a water test back in May so I'm guessing most PA folks got their dogs done back then. Any idea when they would start training and how I would reserve birds?


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## michgundog

Gavan said:


> Valley Forge held a water test back in May so I'm guessing most PA folks got their dogs done back then. Any idea when they would start training and how I would reserve birds?


I will double check with the people who are in charge of this event and let you know ASAP. 


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## michgundog

Gavan said:


> Valley Forge held a water test back in May so I'm guessing most PA folks got their dogs done back then. Any idea when they would start training and how I would reserve birds?


When you sign up just let them know you want to train and we'll have birds. The training will take place prior to the test. 


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Yes that is a fine looking spaniel and still is today.
> 
> Hal mentioned a few pages back that July and August is when champions are made...well conditions sure can be tough now with the reed canary grass 4-6 feet tall, hot, and very tough scenting. Sure is a great chance for the spaniels to hone their skills in scenting and finding. Now is the time to train for a successful fall season.


Saturday morning's training here in Southern Mich was very similar, tough scenting and if the dogs did not spot-on the marks lots of struggle with the conditions. However in long haul that will make them better when conditions improve. 
Putting a few of the experienced springer's in to Guinea's really tested tracking and resolve on the finishing retrieves. Hot mouth puffing and gasping dogs trying to finish the retrieve was a good proofing drill. and good weight training. 5 good flyers of six birds, though the sixth bird was a battle royale . However it was delivered nicely and still alive. Wow do they make a racket. Steadiness was excellent on the low flying birds that went kerthud.
No brace work last week maybe this week.


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## gundogguy

Lordy lordy look who is 1 year old today!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Lordy lordy look who is 1 year old today!


 
Happy Birthday Zeta.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Happy Birthday Zeta.


Yes, happy birthday Zeta!! Good luck this fall!!


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Yes, happy birthday Zeta!! *Good luck this fall!!*
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks guys. However do I have to *wait till *this fall have some good luck. I just as soon see it come earlier than later!


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Lordy lordy look who is 1 year old today!


Happy Birthday, Zeta. Have one for me!


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## Gavan

Here's hoping she reaches her destiny. Whatever that may be.


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## dauber

met today and had some nice work with the pups.

Here is Hank doing some board work with a pigeon and Buster the cat acting as a distraction. Hank was intro'd to quartering today. Hank is coming along nicely UPpower.










Here is Belle retrieving her first pigeon. Belle did very well on the board this week. Very nice progress YooperGuy and your fantastic young daughter who was along today too! 










All the dogs are showing good progress as the summer moves along. Zac was spot on with his stop to flush today. He will be underwhelmed very soon with this. Smoke made some nice tough retrieves in the 4 foot reed canary grass and across some mowed paths. 

Thanks for coming out today crew!! A very good session this morning. I especially like the "running with the spaniels" to start things off.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Here's hoping she reaches her destiny. Whatever that may be.


She has and will continue so as long as her little heart beats. Absolutely a wonder as a spaniel and training project.


Be careful out there, nesting season quiet time is over, and yous with those bird catching hard charging flushing dogs could cause bird numbers to plummet before season begins. Grabbing chicks and flightless RG's and Wood C.

I prefer to run me dogs when a retrieve is possible, not guaranteed, but possible! Am addicted to the smell of Green Dot and Fed GM paper hulls in the woods any time of year.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> met today and had some nice work with the pups.
> 
> Here is Hank doing some board work with a pigeon and Buster the cat acting as a distraction. Hank was intro'd to quartering today. Hank is coming along nicely UPpower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Belle retrieving her first pigeon. Belle did very well on the board this week. Very nice progress YooperGuy and your fantastic young daughter who was along today too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the dogs are showing good progress as the summer moves along. Zac was spot on with his stop to flush today. He will be underwhelmed very soon with this. Smoke made some nice tough retrieves in the 4 foot reed canary grass and across some mowed paths.
> 
> Thanks for coming out today crew!! A very good session this morning. I especially like the "running with the spaniels" to start things off.


Dauber, thanks for sharing the your pics from the 906 training club!


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## uppower

Training group (906) was fun as always. Makes the process so much more attainable when those with the knowledge and resources lend a helping hand. Thanks for having us again Dauber!


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## JAM

Looks like good time had by all. GREAT! I like the (906) training group. My hubby and I are Ma Bell retirees.


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## yooperguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> HBD Dante! He looks fit and happy in that pic, Steve.
> 
> How long have you been able to hunt yr ECS, in years I mean?
> 
> With Britts, I've had a couple which were able to go for short hunts when they were 13-14, but most had to be retired as hunting dogs before that. Mostly bc/ of sight issues, or especially, loss of hearing in 10+ YO dogs.
> 
> Thoughts anyone?


My first ESS was 10 and running strong when diagnosed with cancer. It was only a couple months after that and she was gone. 

I hope I can have my current ESS a little longer. Dang cancer works deadly quick.


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Look who's 10 years old today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dante along with the rest of the pack had a good day training with TVESSC and JAM!


Happy Birthday, Dante! We enjoyed helping you celebrate your big day.


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## michgundog

What a great way for a bird dog to celebrate a 10 birthday, with a mouthful of feathers!! Happy Bday Dante!


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Thanks, Steve Probably about the same as Britts then, baring career ending injuries or other misfortune. *Larger dogs often have shorter lifespans.*
> 
> CANCER is the terminator for way too many good hunting dogs recently it seems. My boys are 7 and 8 yo and , God willing, I should be able to enjoy a few more good seasons over both of them.
> 
> Summer conditioning/tuneups started July 1 for both pups and handler.


Not to put a damper on Dante's birthday, or anyone's birthday for that matter. Dante' looks like he has been a joy to hunt and live with for the last 10 years or so. Mortality and morbidity is what it is

Longevity and actual service time as a working dog is quite dramatically reduced as breeds hit and go beyond the 20-22 inch mark at the shoulder. The small and medium size breeds also tend to have less orthopedic type injury (joints and ligaments). From an actual working standpoint that has always been a plus factor for my self. Having dogs on the DL is never any fun. Good things do come in small packages.



dauber said:


> Look who's 10 years old today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dante along with the rest of the pack had a good day training with TVESSC and JAM!


 
agreat day for the TVESS gang good going. Group training going on from one end of the state to the other. Sorry they rode me hard and I have no photos of the dogs at Justamuc , Saturday.

Some what of a debate took place concerning the use of training birds.

When to pre-plant and when to roll-in. And the use of pigeons vs game birds?
In a previous post Doug, Steve, Gavan mention briefly some of the processes they were accustom with concerning guns, ammo, and training.
So the question becomes in the various training situation around the state. Are birds being pre-planted or rolled in? and why is one method used over the other?

Happy birthday Dante, I could only imagine that in your day you were an Inferno!!


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Some what of a debate took place concerning the use of training birds.
> 
> When to pre-plant and when to roll-in. And the use of pigeons vs game birds?
> In a previous post Doug, Steve, Gavan mention briefly some of the processes they were accustom with concerning guns, ammo, and training.
> So the question becomes in the various training situation around the state. Are birds being pre-planted or rolled in? and why is one method used over the other?


What was a typical training setup when we had a big enough training group was to have each gunner drop in a clip wing pigeon without the dog seeing them before casting the dog off. When those retrieves were complete we'd head down the field to planted pheasants - usually one on each side of the flag line. The guns also carried pigeons in their vests to roll in if there was something to address such as the dog cutting corners in the field so missing some cover, a newly steadied dog whose flushed bird was missed would give you the opportunity to give that pup a retrieve as its reward for its steadiness, etc.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Some what of a debate took place concerning the use of training birds.
> 
> When to pre-plant and when to roll-in. And the use of pigeons vs game birds?
> In a previous post Doug, Steve, Gavan mention briefly some of the processes they were accustom with concerning guns, ammo, and training.
> So the question becomes in the various training situation around the state. Are birds being pre-planted or rolled in? and why is one method used over the other?
> 
> Happy birthday Dante, I could only imagine that in your day you were an Inferno!!


 
Oh yes another good and IMHO very important part of developing and maintaining a flushing spaniel. 

What I _try _to do is read the dog as they are quartering to see if they are hunting a pattern I desire and if they are _hunting for the guns or out hunting for themselves._ Now as I get into field trial training I see that is a very, very fine line and you like them to be right on the line in the trial. For my hunting dog I like them much more on the hunt for the gun side. This is the decision I must make before deciding how many rolled in birds my spaniel will get today and tomorrow.

My hunting dogs get some rolled in birds almost every day here at home with me and sometimes Mrs. D. Rolled in birds vs. preplanted birds is the main tool I use in pattern control, along with rolled in birds being put out in front (so the dog can see) or behind (so the dog cannot see). As always don't forget wind direction, you want your spaniel turning into the wind and downfield as much as possible. 

Types of birds has been opened up some for me with the TVESSC since we have some grounds where we can use pheasants. In the past I mostly used chukar for legality reasons along with some pigeons. Now after learning more about planting pigeons we have used many more pigeons this year will mix in some chukar here at home along with pheasants in the group.

Yes Dante was quite the "Inferno"! He still has quite a zest for life too.


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## michgundog

I prefer to have someone roll in birds. Seems like the cover is either too wet, light or thick. I strive for a flushed and shot bird as much as possible, traps are not going to move my dogs along in their training....


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> What was a typical training setup when we had a big enough training group was to have each gunner drop in a clip wing pigeon without the dog seeing them before casting the dog off. When those retrieves were complete we'd head down the field to planted pheasants - usually one on each side of the flag line. The guns also carried pigeons in their vests to roll in if there was something to address such as the dog cutting corners in the field so missing some cover, a newly steadied dog whose flushed bird was missed would give you the opportunity to give that pup a retrieve as its reward for its steadiness, etc.


Yes, a good typical situation training set up. just to clarify that the guns were rolling in clipped wings unbeknown to the dog then the dog was quartered on the course and allowed to find, go in catch and retrieve the clipped wing bird. Once pattern was sufficiently established, and delivery issues dealt with, if any, continue on down the course into the area that held the pre-planted flyers.
Good way to teach proper running habits after steadiness has been developed.



dauber said:


> Oh yes another good and IMHO very important part of developing and maintaining a flushing spaniel.
> 
> What I _try _to do is read the dog as they are quartering to see if they are hunting a pattern I desire and if they are* hunting for the guns or out hunting for themselves. Now as I get into field trial training I see* *that is a very, very fine line *and you like them to be right on the line in the trial. For my hunting dog I like them much more on the hunt for the gun side. This is the decision I must make before deciding how many rolled in birds my spaniel will get today and tomorrow.
> 
> My hunting dogs get some rolled in birds almost every day here at home with me and sometimes Mrs. D. Rolled in birds vs. preplanted birds is the main tool I use in pattern control, along with rolled in birds being put out in front (so the dog can see) or behind (so the dog cannot see). As always don't forget wind direction, you want your spaniel turning into the wind and downfield as much as possible.
> 
> 
> Yes Dante was quite the "Inferno"! He still has quite a zest for life too.


This the part of training that allow the dog to tell you if they are a shooting dog or a performance dog....That fine line of distinction comes out during these sessions. And it does not take very many sessions to realize which side of the line is your dog operating.
Both pre-planting and rolling -in have there uses. 
Normally pre-planting will push a dog out and rolling in will bring a dog in.
Most shooting dog and hunt test training is about rolling in.
Trial dogs may need a combination of both, with the rolled -in bird used as a way to remind the dog that the birds near the guns and not down field at the 'horizon".




michgundog said:


> I prefer to have someone roll in birds. Seems like the cover is either too wet, light or thick. I strive for a flushed and shot bird as much as possible, *traps *are not going to move my dogs along in their training....
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good point about Conditions, heavy cover light cover wet cover.
For a long time "traps, pegged bird and caught birds were a big let down. Remember I love to shoot that is one of the reasons why I do this.
And then it dawned on me, lets make a nice drink out these sour lemons!

Ok so the dog caught a bird out of how many that he/she will see in her life, a mere pittance, so I have lost a bird but I do not want to lose a teaching moment while in the field training.
As me dog brings back the trapped bird *1st*. I know I will have an opportunity to proof the dogs delivery, I'm very anal about delivery.
*2nd*, It will give me an opportunity to evaluate the dogs mouth after the struggle of catching a bird in the cover. Can I still use this bird latter after say giving the bird a rest or was the bird damaged....It had better not be..

*3rd* and most important, because the dog caught a bird I can create a another training exercise for the dog to have to deal with. This has to be set up prior to the run and you must communicate with your guns as to your intention under these circumstances.."Caught Bird"
as the dog approaches on the delivery release a flyer directly over the dogs head,(that way the dog sees the flyer) "Hup" dog should sit with bird in mouth and watch flyer, gun or guns shoot shoot. Handle accordingly. If the bird is missed, finish the retrieve of the trapped bird.
Carry on with the training session.
If the bird is killed finish the retrieve of the trapped bird then send the dog for the 2nd bird or memory mark. Now you have increase the value of the work by 10X the price of a trapped bird. If a dog fails this entire narrative chances are you need to be doing yard work and not field work with flyers. Flyer will not move the dog forward if the dog is lacking some of the basics.


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## michgundog

Some good drills to add in... Thanks for the tip Hal. 


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Good point about Conditions, heavy cover light cover wet cover.
> For a long time "traps, pegged bird and caught birds were a big let down. *Remember I love to shoot that is one of the reasons why I do this.*
> *And then it dawned on me, lets make a nice drink out these sour lemons*_!_
> 
> Ok so the dog caught a bird out of how many that he/she will see in her life, a mere pittance, so I have lost a bird but I do not want to lose a teaching moment while in the field training.
> As me dog brings back the trapped bird *1st*. I know I will have an opportunity to proof the dogs delivery, I'm very anal about delivery.
> *2nd*, It will give me an opportunity to evaluate the dogs mouth after the struggle of catching a bird in the cover. Can I still use this bird latter after say giving the bird a rest or was the bird damaged....It had better not be..
> 
> *3rd* and most important, because the dog caught a bird I can create a another training exercise for the dog to have to deal with. This has to be set up prior to the run and you must communicate with your guns as to your intention under these circumstances.."Caught Bird"
> as the dog approaches on the delivery release a flyer directly over the dogs head,(that way the dog sees the flyer) "Hup" dog should sit with bird in mouth and watch flyer, gun or guns shoot shoot. Handle accordingly. If the bird is missed, finish the retrieve of the trapped bird.
> Carry on with the training session.
> If the bird is killed finish the retrieve of the trapped bird then send the dog for the 2nd bird or memory mark. Now you have increase the value of the work by 10X the price of a trapped bird. If a dog fails this entire narrative chances are you need to be doing yard work and not field work with flyers. Flyer will not move the dog forward if the dog is lacking some of the basics.


 
Good ideas! Last night while doing some board work with Smoke flushing and Dante retrieving it got too late the pigeons just wanted to bury and not fly. So on Smoke's 3rd trap I did the toss over his head with trapped bird, had him sit, then shot the bird, sent Dante for retrieve. It was a good proof for Smoke to sit on bird tossed over his head, stay seated for shot and fall, and stay while Dante ran past him on retrieve. Plus Dante got to retrieve in the 4-5 foot tall reed canary grass. We all slept well then:lol:.


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## Hunting with Drake

Sorry for my ignorance but I've seen the expression " Hie on" used several times and I was wondering.....what is it meaning?


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## dauber

Hunting with Drake said:


> Sorry for my ignorance but I've seen the expression " Hie on" used several times and I was wondering.....what is it meaning?


 
It's a command used by spaniel folks to send the dog off hunting. Kindof short for "get your butt out there and find me a bird" which is what I used to say before becoming a regular reader of the Spaniel Corner


----------



## JAM

Hunting with Drake said:


> Sorry for my ignorance but I've seen the expression " Hie on" used several times and I was wondering.....what is it meaning?


Here's the definition of "hie": 

_hie |h&#299;|
verb ( hies , hieing or hying , hied ) [ no obj. ]
go quickly: I hied down to New Orleans | I hied myself to a screenwriters' conference.
ORIGIN Middle English: from Old English h&#299;gian strive, pant, of unknown origin._

So when spanielers say, "Hie on", it means to "go on quickly." I never heard the phrase until I started training with a spaniel group.


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## Gavan

An oversimplification is that for the dog it's about you or the birds when it comes to training in the field. The way you handle birds determines the dogs range and can impact their focus on you as well. If you always plant then you will be fighting to keep a dog with high prey drive in gun range. On the other hand if you always roll birds in close to you a dog with low prey drive and extreme focus on you will never leave your feet. Both situations are frustrating and we need to alter our training to find middle ground with each individual dog. It would be great if all dogs were the same but they aren't and that's what makes dog training fun and challenging. You must decide before you get the dog out of the truck where you are in this dogs training and what you want to accomplish. If the dog isn't paying enough attention to you make sure the reward (birds) are found close to you. If the dog is too focused on you then plant his birds to move some of his focus OUT THERE where the birds are. Don't get stuck in a rut and create your own problems.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Here's the definition of "hie":
> 
> _hie |h&#299;|_
> _verb ( hies , hieing or hying , hied ) [ no obj. ]_
> _go quickly: I hied down to New Orleans | I hied myself to a screenwriters' conference._
> _ORIGIN Middle English: from Old English h&#299;gian strive, pant, of unknown origin._
> 
> So when spanielers say, "Hie on", it means to "go on quickly." I never heard the phrase until I started training with a spaniel group.


 
+1 Thanks JAM
Talbot Radcliff founder of Saighton Kennels explained the meaning of it one night at dinner, that was a command that developed through the ages which also described the dogs of the day.. His definition of "Hie-on!" was part of the dogs make up.."Get on with it" The definition of a good spaniel is hustle and bustle and the command to "Hie-on!" was to "get on" with the business of producing game to the gun.

Similar to the "HUP" command which an abbreviation for "Sit up"

Same thing Jam never heard till I started training with a spaniel group in 1976. Not really part of any of the other dog cultures other the spaniels


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## CDN_Cocker

Anyone have any idea with the spaniel journal will be returning from its hiatus? I'm craving to read some spaniel articles.


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## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> Here's the definition of "hie":
> 
> _hie |h&#299;|
> verb ( hies , hieing or hying , hied ) [ no obj. ]
> go quickly: I hied down to New Orleans | I hied myself to a screenwriters' conference.
> ORIGIN Middle English: from Old English h&#299;gian strive, pant, of unknown origin._
> 
> So when spanielers say, "Hie on", it means to "go on quickly." I never heard the phrase until I started training with a spaniel group.


Hmmmmm.......

I think we just found the "Word of the Day" expert for TSC.

Good Job, Jill!

NB


Now I have to "hie on" to get the lawn mowed before it reaches 100Deg F 
here this afternoon!


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Anyone have any idea with the spaniel journal will be returning from its hiatus? I'm craving to read some spaniel articles.


Sorry to say I don't think it will. The owner of the site looks like she's no longer involved. If she is, very limited. 


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## uppower

Starting to work a mini T drill to develop hand signals in prep for duck hunting. I am currently starting with just left and right. I am bringing out my dog then commanding sit one toot in whistle. Am I supposed to be able to cast him out before the sit or is bringing him out ok. Any advice on this process would be much appreciated. 


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## gundogguy

uppower said:


> Starting to work a mini T drill to develop hand signals in prep for duck hunting. I am currently starting with just left and right. I am bringing out my dog then commanding sit one toot in whistle. Am I supposed to be able to cast him out before the sit or is bringing him out ok. Any advice on this process would be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
Evan Graham's "Smartwork for retrievers" has a nice flow chart as to where you should be going if you non-slip training your dog.
Mini T is part of basic handling which his booklet details quite specifically.

Very few of the upland spaniel folks on the forum that are doing serious training may not be familiar with the nuances of the non-slip retriever work. Your neighbor Dauber will be your best resource on some of the things that you are looking for. However I would encourage you to get a copy Evan Graham work book it would help you greatly.
The primary reason for this is that Spaniel training and duck dog training are two different vegetables. There are a few folks here that would understand Whoa breaking, but that is not something the Spaniel or retriever trainer does. It is something that pointing dog folks are well versed with.
The Mini T, 3-hand casting drill single T, double T are just not part of the spaniel landscape. should they be I have no idea.
Possible over in the water fowl section of forum maybe some of the retriever types would be available for information sharing...

Google Evan Graham ,Mike Lardy, Check in with Jydog, Socks here on the forum, they would have some info for you


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Anyone have any idea with the spaniel journal will be returning from its hiatus? I'm craving to read some spaniel articles.





michgundog said:


> Sorry to say I don't think it will. The owner of the site looks like she's no longer involved. If she is, very limited.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I think I heard she was excepting donations to get the Journal up again?!


----------



## yooperguy

Great discussions and information everyone. This stuff is a pleasure to read and I appreciate the information. 


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## Hunting with Drake

yooperguy2003 said:


> Great discussions and information everyone. This stuff is a pleasure to read and I appreciate the information.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I agree!! I like to think my efforts in training are working....but sometimes I think I'm just standing there throwing bumpers and blowing a whistle to a audience of one who is semi-mildly interested in my efforts:lol: . So all this information is truly going to help Drake and I with our training.


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## dauber

Hunting with Drake said:


> I agree!! I like to think my efforts in training are working....but sometimes I think I'm just standing there throwing bumpers and blowing a whistle to a audience of one who is semi-mildly interested in my efforts:lol: . So all this information is truly going to help Drake and I with our training.


HwD, here is a link to some training tips. If nothing else do the "intro to box" http://glencoekennels.net/Training.html So many things can be taught off the box. I know there are lots of pages to the SC2, but go back and there is lots of advice to newer pup owners. Good luck.


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## gundogguy

Hunting with Drake said:


> I agree!! I like to think my efforts in training are working....but* sometimes I think I'm just standing there throwing bumpers and blowing a whistle to a audience of one who is semi-mildly interested in my* efforts:lol: . So all this information is truly going to help Drake and I with our training.


 
Training goes that exactly until you start place board work then it changes, the board or box sets a line that is easy for all participants to define and interest either peaks or dies and you will know if you have a dog that you may or not be able to work with. Best of fortunes on your journey!


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## dauber

Only so many things to do in the really hot weather, early morning but often very dewy and wet so birds don't fly well, water work of course which is great for exercise and fun. But to reinforce controls and standards on flush, shot and retrieve I use the box for some intense short drills. Here I have both older dogs on place boards and have dropped a pigeon in the grass. I have it set up so the back dog will be sent on the flush, having to run past the honoring dog. Then the dog honoring the flush is sent for the retrieve having to run past the flushing dog. Quite a few things going on here with both dogs having to be steady to shot, and having to wait for me to decide who gets to do what. Yes I do change things up, especially if one of them doesn't live up to my standards and objectives of the drill.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Only so many things to do in the really hot weather, early morning but often very dewy and wet so birds don't fly well, water work of course which is great for exercise and fun. But to reinforce controls and standards on flush, shot and retrieve I use the box for some intense short drills. Here I have both older dogs on place boards and have dropped a pigeon in the grass. I have it set up so the back dog will be sent on the flush, having to run past the honoring dog. Then the dog honoring the flush is sent for the retrieve having to run past the flushing dog. Quite a few things going on here with both dogs having to be steady to shot, and having to wait for me to decide who gets to do what. Yes I do change things up, especially if one of them doesn't live up to my standards and objectives of the drill.
> 
> Dante Flush Smoke Retrieve 7 14 13 - YouTube


Very nice on the place board expansion! the only limits are our imagination. ...Kinda have to feel sorry for the one dog family, training exercises get very interesting when you have multiple dogs. Great proofing drill on steadiness, focus, marking, and delivery!
Maybe we should have this type of set-ups in the 
Spaniel hunt tests:evil::evil::evil:


----------



## michgundog

Very nice Steve!! Thanks for sharing. 


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Here is a photo of a pup being weighed on day 2 and another phot of a pup being weighed on day 17.
> 
> 
> 
> What does this marking on the is pup look like to you?
> 
> 
> 
> Another angle the pup in the middle
> 
> 
> 
> My wife thinks it looks like a bird.


How the babies doing? How many are lined up for placement? Will you the breeder be keeping one of the boys?
Seems that pricing is on a few folks mind, I'm sure the experience has given Doug a chance to evaluate what factor expense/ price plays into the whole process of breeding.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Only so many things to do in the really hot weather, early morning but often very dewy and wet so birds don't fly well, water work of course which is great for exercise and fun. But to reinforce controls and standards on flush, shot and retrieve I use the box for some intense short drills. Here I have both older dogs on place boards and have dropped a pigeon in the grass. I have it set up so the back dog will be sent on the flush, having to run past the honoring dog. Then the dog honoring the flush is sent for the retrieve having to run past the flushing dog. Quite a few things going on here with both dogs having to be steady to shot, and having to wait for me to decide who gets to do what. Yes I do change things up, especially if one of them doesn't live up to my standards and objectives of the drill.
> 
> Dante Flush Smoke Retrieve 7 14 13 - YouTube


Very cool Steve!


----------



## dauber

dauber said:


> Here is Zac flushing a pigeon today off the board, this was just as he was jumping up for the bird.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here he is stopped right after a flush off the board. He has learned he can't catch em once they get up and go, when I release him now he heads back to the board ready for the next flush.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With this method he is allowed to chase his early birds without any being shot so he teaches himself they cannot be caught once they are out of his reach. Over the last couple weeks he has had 15-20 birds with him stopping his chase sooner and sooner. Today he didn't go 10 feet past the flush before stopping, then I give him the sit whistle, go praise, and release him back to the place board.
> 
> For Zac every single thing we have done since he got home has been geared towards steadying him when he is ready and capable of being steadied. From his first puppy retrieves in the house, to the board work in the house, to outside, so his line steady on the boards, to his tossed bumper steady off the boards, to his steady to live tossed birds off the boards. Now he is learning steady to flush off the board. Once this is down stone cold he will then learn to be steady to tossed birds with a shot fired, then steady to tossed birds shot and dropped off the board. Then finally to flushed shot dropped birds off the boards. All before he is given the opportunity to flush and have birds shot over him in the field. We are just now in the very early stages of our steadying plan. Still a long ways to go and many pitfalls we can run into.
> 
> Mike this is pretty much Zac's plan on steadying. I may need to go get more pigeons:yikes:. Good luck with your pup my friend.


Here is a low quality video of Zac flushing a couple pigeons. We are sticking to the plan and have added a popper shot to the flush. He is getting to the "underwhelmed" point if this so we are close to moving on to hand tossed shot flyers with him on the place board. We are still working on quartering drills and retrieve drills especially remote retrieves with popper shots.


----------



## gundogguy

High quality work I would say. Zac is on his way to being steady to wing and shot by his 1st birthday. At the same stage he reminds of Zeta(1yr) dog who has been steady for the last month.
Completely different breeding's...must be the training good job Dauber stay the course Hie-on!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> High quality work I would say. Zac is on his way to being steady to wing and shot by his 1st birthday. At the same stage he reminds of Zeta(1yr) dog who has been steady for the last month.
> Completely different breeding's...must be the training good job Dauber stay the course Hie-on!


Will Zeta and Zac be running in Open or puppy stakes this fall?? 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Will Zeta and Zac be running in Open or puppy stakes this fall??
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I cannot speak for Steve and Karen. And the only thing I would say about Zeta is we will see. A definite maybe.

The Open or Amateur is not a possibility this autumn. Running newly steadied yearlings on _pheasants in brace_ is a Big Fool's bet!
We have discussed Puppy stakes however. Puppy stakes are a Fun Trials with standards, Lots of downsize risk NO upside reward or pay-off. And I say that for a whole host of reasons. 

Zeta is in a great state of transition right now and really needs to learn how to run properly, along with demonstrating her new behaviors of steadiness, blending her great marking talents, while maintaining her truly blast-off flush. At 54 weeks of age she is good shape, but she does need to age and season.

So if your already counting Puppie stake entry's for Southern Mi...Well it's a definite maybe!


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## Gavan

Awesome videos Steve. I'm assuming these drills were reviewed as a part of the McGagh Seminar. My light bulb has come on as to how I can incorporate this into my pre-fall trial training. Deals with foundation elements of the steadying process and may help with follow through. We'll see. Thanks for posting.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> Awesome videos Steve. I'm assuming these drills were reviewed as a part of the McGagh Seminar. My light bulb has come on as to how I can incorporate this into my pre-fall trial training. Deals with foundation elements of the steadying process and may help with follow through. We'll see. Thanks for posting.


The Zac video is exactly what McGagh taught at the seminar. The other video is a direct result from his teachings, he didn't show us that drill, but was constantly changing up what he was doing off 2 boards, sometimes with 2 dogs. He, as Hal has said too, you are only limited by your imagination with place board drills. In fact McGagh will take the board right out to the training field for the pup and help the transition moving to quartering a field and steady to shot, fall, and flush by giving the pup a hand tossed shot bird off the board at the start line, give retrieve, then have pup flush off the board and shot/retrieve bird, then send pup off quartering. Set em up for success. 

Yes he uses that simple drill Zac was doing with older dogs too...he will let them catch 1/3 of flushes to bold up flush and follow through.


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> Will Zeta and Zac be running in Open or puppy stakes this fall??
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





gundogguy said:


> I cannot speak for Steve and Karen. And the only thing I would say about Zeta is we will see. A definite maybe.
> 
> The Open or Amateur is not a possibility this autumn. Running newly steadied yearlings on _pheasants in brace_ is a Big Fool's bet!
> We have discussed Puppy stakes however. Puppy stakes are a Fun Trials with standards, Lots of downsize risk NO upside reward or pay-off. And I say that for a whole host of reasons.
> 
> Zeta is in a great state of transition right now and really needs to learn how to run properly, along with demonstrating her new behaviors of steadiness, blending her great marking talents, while maintaining her truly blast-off flush. At 54 weeks of age she is good shape, but she does need to age and season.
> 
> So if your already counting Puppie stake entry's for Southern Mi...Well it's a definite maybe!


+1 Our thoughts are just about the same as Hal and Nancy's.

No way he will be running open/amateur, I don't believe he will mentally be prepared for multiple series, braces with manners, or a constant diet of pheasants. 

We have been on the fence of running him in a puppy, one thought is to run him one day in the Michigan puppy stake but not the other 2. We got timer to make that decision. He really has quite a few more steps to make before even being ready to run puppy, some of the steps may go pretty fast, others may not. We are not on a timetable with Zac, he will move along when he shows he is ready.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Awesome videos Steve. I'm assuming these drills were reviewed as a part of the McGagh Seminar. My light bulb has come on as to how I can incorporate this into my pre-fall trial training. Deals with foundation elements of the steadying process and may help with follow through. We'll see. Thanks for posting.


Careful there old timer in this heat you might want to get a 20-30 amp fuse under that "light bulb" By the way if you need some hydration I know I fella in PA. that's in the bottled water business. Stay cool!



dauber said:


> +1 Our thoughts are just about the same as Hal and Nancy's.
> 
> No way he will be running open/amateur, I don't believe he will mentally be prepared for multiple series, braces with manners, or a constant diet of pheasants.
> 
> We have been on the fence of running him in a puppy, one thought is to run him one day in the Michigan puppy stake but not the other 2. We got timer to make that decision. He really has quite a few more steps to make before even being ready to run puppy, some of the steps may go pretty fast, others may not. We are not on a timetable with Zac, he will move along when he shows he is ready.


Right-on! right-on! right-on! No sense being Entry fodder! Let the wanna be's pay the trial expenses.
In the new Century the age old saying is truer than ever "you enter a trial when you are ready to win the trial"..
Stay cool training class in the morning! I'll goof off a little and try to get some photo work done!


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## michgundog

Good plans for both dogs futures. Hope you both do well this fall!!


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## Gavan

does as much to keep Leinenkugel in business as I do my own company...


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## Jim58

gundogguy said:


> It's been a good day cooled off nice. Little cocker Reesey girl 20 months old, Nice find steady huge mark over the hill to the west
> 
> Reece 513 - YouTube


Very nice Hal. Is that the same little girl I used to watch run as a pup? 
Nice long retrieve, confident gunner!


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## gundogguy

Jim58 said:


> Very nice Hal. Is that the same little girl I used to watch run as a pup?
> Nice long retrieve, confident gunner!


The same little girl she been steady since she was 7months, and she just turned two.
she the same dog you shot the wrong bird over and she handled the situation very well. I have that vid somewhere.. Give her a blind water retrieve and she walks through the Master test like it wasn't even there.

The hunt test mantra "they don't have to exciting they just have to be obedient".


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## Jim58

gundogguy said:


> The same little girl she been steady since she was 7months, and she just turned two.
> she the same dog you shot the wrong bird over and she handled the situation very well. I have that vid somewhere.. Give her a blind water retrieve and she walks through the Master test like it wasn't even there.
> 
> The hunt test mantra "they don't have to exciting they just have to be obedient".


I was in hopes that wrong bird video had been erased.:lol: I was just trying to see how steady she really was. Pretty steady as it turned out!


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## yooperguy

My ESS Belle has come into season for the first time. She's a couple of weeks shy of 10 months old. 

I was hoping you owners of female spaniels could shed some light on how long a cycle could or might last. I believe that she's in her second full week, starting on or around July 13. She only had one day of needing a doggy diaper (yesterday) and it seems to have quit today.

Can anyone give me some advice on how long I should keep her away from male dogs? My wife and I both did some looking online last night but found many differing bits of info. 

My first ESS had plenty of cycles when I had her but it's been nearly 10 years and I don't remember much about them exept for the trail of droplets. And since my first ESS was a rescue, I didn't get her until she was 3. I've never had a pup before so don't know if they are shorter or less frequent. Any info will be appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

3 weeks. I don't have a female spaniel but do own a female. They are able to breed after about a week in but to be c safe just keep her away from males for the full 3 weeks. Good luck. .. What a hassle. Mines getting spayed tomorrow actually lol. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## gundogguy

yooperguy2003 said:


> My ESS Belle has come into season for the first time. She's a couple of weeks shy of 10 months old.
> 
> I was hoping you owners of female spaniels could shed some light on how long a cycle could or might last. I believe that she's in her second full week, starting on or around July 13. She only had one day of needing a doggy diaper (yesterday) and it seems to have quit today.
> 
> Can anyone give me some advice on how long I should keep her away from male dogs? My wife and I both did some looking online last night but found many differing bits of info.
> 
> My first ESS had plenty of cycles when I had her but it's been nearly 10 years and I don't remember much about them exept for the trail of droplets. And since my first ESS was a rescue, I didn't get her until she was 3. I've never had a pup before so don't know if they are shorter or less frequent. Any info will be appreciated. Thanks!


 

Nothing changes girls will be girls boys will be boys keep her safe, that is the responsibility of owning a lassie. Laddie's come with their own issues.

It is all about management, I do not fix my girls until much later in life, 7,8-,9 yrs. of age.. and have had as many 8 breed able bitches at one time. 
Over the years I have worked with many young ladies that have been spade and I just see some quirky stuff going on in the learning process and dietary results. 

One of the issues that have seen is that when the girls are under a busy and stressful training regime their cycles are thrown off and come in less frequently. YMV on, that but I have girls that only came in 1-2 times during their mature adult lives.


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## CDN_Cocker

I have heard activity levels affect frequency of cycles. My pup's mother didn't have her first cycle till she was close to 2 years old due to her being worked/trained hard on a regular basis


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## I'm with Brandy

yooperguy2003 said:


> My ESS Belle has come into season for the first time. She's a couple of weeks shy of 10 months old.
> 
> I was hoping you owners of female spaniels could shed some light on how long a cycle could or might last. I believe that she's in her second full week, starting on or around July 13. She only had one day of needing a doggy diaper (yesterday) and it seems to have quit today.
> 
> Can anyone give me some advice on how long I should keep her away from male dogs? My wife and I both did some looking online last night but found many differing bits of info.
> 
> My first ESS had plenty of cycles when I had her but it's been nearly 10 years and I don't remember much about them exept for the trail of droplets. And since my first ESS was a rescue, I didn't get her until she was 3. I've never had a pup before so don't know if they are shorter or less frequent. Any info will be appreciated. Thanks!


There are some averages but don't expect your pup to follow some kind of set pattern when it comes to heat cycle or length. Brandy had her first heat cycle little over 18 months. I often will work her hard before a test or trial if I think she is coming into heat. I will also cut back on her fat intake a little. This has helped in putting the heat cycle off. I track her heat cycle so I can schedule hunt test and other events.

After the first sign of blood the bitch will be ready to breed in about 9-10 days (again this can vary by a day or two). Once the bitch has ovulated they can be bred any time in the next 4 to 5 days, 5 days is pushing it a little. Sperm can remain viable in the bitch for approximately 5 days. So if a bitch bred a day or two before ovulation she could still get pregnant. Keep your bitch away form males as long as they show interest and as long as she allows them to lick her vulva and flag for them.

In the chart below I have separated the heat cycles first and second cycle.


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## yooperguy

Thank you guys. I figured the averages were more in line with what I could expect than specific timelines. I've previously had a female ESS that remained intact until nearly her 5th b-day. She never was bred and I didn't keep any kind of records. My dog's vet recommended having her spayed at that time and she was. 

I will begin to record this as event #1 in the cycle chart for Belle.

IWB - I appreciate the detailed info about the process that the bitch goes through with cycles. That's way more than our casual Internet searches turned up.


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## Hunting with Drake

I wish I had some pictures to post but Drake is doing awesome on the rectangle board for training!! He is pretty steady as I throw the bumper. Then will retrieve when I release him to "get it". We are working at maybe 40-50 yards for his retrieves (or as far as I can whip the bumper out there). Very exciting time for us right now.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Nothing changes girls will be girls boys will be boys keep her safe, that is the responsibility of owning a lassie. Laddie's come with their own issues.
> 
> It is all about management, I do not fix my girls until much later in life, 7,8-,9 yrs. of age.. and have had as many 8 breed able bitches at one time.
> Over the years I have worked with many young ladies that have been spade and I just see some quirky stuff going on in the learning process and dietary results.
> 
> One of the issues that have seen is that when the girls are under a busy and stressful training regime their cycles are thrown off and come in less frequently. YMV on, that but I have girls that only came in 1-2 times during their mature adult lives.


I agree with Hal that it is good for a bitch to remain intact until 8 or 9 years old. At about that age the threat of cancer becomes a concern and I have the bitch fixed at that point. Hal do you have any experience with the new spay procedure that only removes the ovaries ovariectomy (OVE) and leaves the uterus intact versus a ovariohysterectomy (OVH) which takes both?


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Hunting with Drake said:


> I wish I had some pictures to post but Drake is doing awesome on the rectangle board for training!! He is pretty steady as I throw the bumper. Then will retrieve when I release him to "get it". We are working at maybe 40-50 yards for his retrieves (or as far as I can whip the bumper out there). Very exciting time for us right now.


If you are training alone make sure that you don't always throw the bumper from his side. The dog will develop a mental wall that bumpers can't be any farther than you can throw them.

Leave him on the stand walk out 80 yards tell him look and toss the bumper then walk back to his side and send him. This will help with his steadiness, memory, and additionally he will learn that the distance to the mark can be longer than your ability to throw.

Make sure it is all about fun and never let him get bored.


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## dauber

Hunting with Drake said:


> I wish I had some pictures to post but Drake is doing awesome on the rectangle board for training!! He is pretty steady as I throw the bumper. Then will retrieve when I release him to "get it". We are working at maybe 40-50 yards for his retrieves (or as far as I can whip the bumper out there). Very exciting time for us right now.


Excellent report HwD! When he is staying pretty well add in a second bumper out in the same general area. Then send him for one then the other. You are teaching him if he stays he might get more throws, you are helping to teach memory with 2 bumpers, and he will then also want to get back on the first retrieve and not mess around knowing there is a second. Then as Hal suggested to me in the past, have him hold the last retrieve and throw out one more with him holding. You will be adding quite a bit of mental stress to Drake so take it slow. Also if you make a second board here is some things you can do with 2. Note how when making things more complicated shorten up the retrieves initially, and even move to mowed grass. I think I posted this earlier this spring for the regular SC2 readers.


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## Hunting with Drake

I can get about 20 Yards before he breaks ands comes to get me. We have only been using the platform for about a week and his "stay" is getting better every day. We train and play for 30-45 minutes in the evenigns after I get home from work....except for the heat wave last week then we sat in front of the AC in our chair.


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## I'm with Brandy

Hunting with Drake said:


> I can get about 20 Yards before he breaks ands comes to get me. We have only been using the platform for about a week and his "stay" is getting better every day. We train and play for 30-45 minutes in the evenigns after I get home from work....except for the heat wave last week then we sat in front of the AC in our chair.


As he gets better about sitting you can stretch it out. I don't like throwing from the dogs side because it starts a habit of the dog looking at you instead of out in the field.

Don't forget to teach him about scent drags. Marks are great but some times those birds get up and run.


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## michgundog

Hunting with Drake said:


> I wish I had some pictures to post but Drake is doing awesome on the rectangle board for training!! He is pretty steady as I throw the bumper. Then will retrieve when I release him to "get it". We are working at maybe 40-50 yards for his retrieves (or as far as I can whip the bumper out there). Very exciting time for us right now.


Start picking up the bumper yourself like every other toss and make sure he stays on your board. Invest in a dummy launcher and stretch out his marks and get him use to being steady on the shot off the board too. 


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## dauber

Hunting with Drake said:


> I can get about 20 Yards before he breaks ands comes to get me. We have only been using the platform for about a week and his "stay" is getting better every day. We train and play for 30-45 minutes in the evenigns after I get home from work....except for the heat wave last week then we sat in front of the AC in our chair.


What I did with Zac is use treats. When he stayed on the board with me circling he'd get a treat, when he stayed while I got out of sight I'd go back and give him a treat. I taught him to stay and love the board with treats. No treats on retrieves though. By having him LOVE the board this is where we go for more difficult training and it keeps him in a happy, happy state.



michgundog said:


> Start picking up the bumper yourself like every other toss and make sure he stays on your board. Invest in a dummy launcher and stretch out his marks and get him use to being steady on the shot off the board too.
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


+1 Good points Mike. I started out with the "manual" tennis ball thrower I used in the video. The ball rolls too so they get some tracking without humans walking along side it. In time pup will get birds, clips tossed out a few minutes ahead will give pup all kinds of tracking. Before using a launcher make sure pup is intro'd to gun, they are loud. We used one last weekend at dog training camp and is a favorite for our pack. Good luck HwD.


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I agree with Hal that it is good for a bitch to remain intact until 8 or 9 years old. At about that age the threat of cancer becomes a concern and I have the bitch fixed at that point. *Hal do you have any experience with the new spay procedure* that only removes the ovaries ovariectomy (OVE) and leaves the uterus intact versus a ovariohysterectomy (OVH) which takes both?


I have no experience what so ever, have had many bitches, spade very few. Currently have 3 girls 1yr, 8yrs and 15 yrs. None are spade.
My 2 males are whole as well. When have spade it was at a later date of age of the lady dog. I cannot remember neutering any of our males
Spay and neutering just not part of the performance world I grew up in.




Hunting with Drake said:


> *I can get about 20 Yards before* *he breaks ands comes to get me.* We have only been using the platform for about a week and his "stay" is getting better every day. *We train and play for 30-45 minutes in the evenigns* after I get home from work....except for the heat wave last week then we sat in front of the AC in our chair.


How about starting at 3yrds then 6 then 12 make your moves in small incremental steps. Eventually you should be 100yrds away from the dog before you throw his mark or multiple marks. Incrementalism is the whole of dog training or teaching. Each behavior that we are training for is achieved thru layering other behaviors on top of the next, in small easily understood situations.

*"We train and play for 30-45 minutes"*
When we train we train, when we play we play however do not mix to two activities, review the video that dauber posted . This video done in May is a bout 5 minutes long That is all your teaching sessions should be, during the video Dauber was able to stimulate and reward and correct Zac for appropriate or unwanted behavior with clarity because both dog and handler were focused on a particular activity. Clarity is the most important facet of the training session without dog and handler will never get on the same page.
When a training a session is over(5-10 minutes) doggie should go back in it's kennel for some quiet time. No sense destroying the work you accomplished with all sorts of erratic stimulation, that can only demoralize the good work you have been trying to teach. have a play session an hour or so after the quiet time. Training is good playing with our dogs is good just do not mix the two.


----------



## Gavan

The last one by Hal regarding not mixing play and training and shortening length of sessions is especially critical. The comment by IWB about not throwing from the side or behind was something I had never thought of and probably came from the retriever game. They have put a lot more thought into everything retrieving related than spaniel guys do. I like his suggestion and Hal's comments of only walking away from the board a few feet at first and achieve success, then increase distance. In fact the first building block is to sit and stay on the board without leaving until told....ever. A single retrieve is used at the end of the sit and stay session just to relieve pressure on the dog and give them something fun.

My first thought when I read the OP was mostly steady and 40 to 50 yards. If you are working on steadying then distance isn't relevant, steadiness is. 

Ton of good advice from everyone. I would add: know what you want to accomplish before you start the session and focus on that. Don't try to fix or accomplish multiple things at once. Don't need a 50 yard retrieve. There will be plenty of time to stretch the retrieving out after you have gotten the dog into a routine and steady. Get the dog comfortable with what you want before adding in more "factors". Move on when he/she is executing and while it's still exciting for the dog. "Make haste slowly" was a quote from one old timer.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> How about starting at 3yrds then 6 then 12 make your moves in small incremental steps. Eventually you should be 100yrds away from the dog before you throw his mark or multiple marks. *Incrementalism is the whole of dog training or teaching. Each behavior that we are training for is achieved thru layering other behaviors on top of the next, in small easily understood situations.*
> 
> *"We train and play for 30-45 minutes"*
> When we train we train, when we play we play however do not mix to two activities, review the video that dauber posted . This video done in May is a bout 5 minutes long That is all your teaching sessions should be, during the video Dauber was able to stimulate and reward and correct Zac for appropriate or unwanted behavior with clarity because both dog and handler were focused on a particular activity. Clarity is the most important facet of the training session without dog and handler will never get on the same page.
> When a training a session is over(5-10 minutes) doggie should go back in it's kennel for some quiet time. No sense destroying the work you accomplished with all sorts of erratic stimulation, that can only demoralize the good work you have been trying to teach. have a play session an hour or so after the quiet time. *Training is good playing with our dogs is good just do not mix the two*.


Great advice....baby steps when it come to training pup. Actually watching the Zac vid again I see we worked a might too long in that session, he was losing concentration the last minute or so. He can handle 5 minute sessions now, but then at a little over 8 months he couldn't. 



Gavan said:


> The last one by Hal regarding not mixing play and training and shortening length of sessions is especially critical. The comment by IWB about not throwing from the side or behind was something I had never thought of and probably came from the retriever game. They have put a lot more thought into everything retrieving related than spaniel guys do. I like his suggestion and Hal's comments of only walking away from the board a few feet at first and achieve success, then increase distance. In fact the first building block is to sit and stay on the board without leaving until told....ever. A single retrieve is used at the end of the sit and stay session just to relieve pressure on the dog and give them something fun.
> 
> My first thought when I read the OP was mostly steady and 40 to 50 yards. *If you are working on steadying then distance isn't relevant, steadiness is*.
> 
> Ton of good advice from everyone. I would add: know what you want to accomplish before you start the session and focus on that. Don't try to fix or accomplish multiple things at once. Don't need a 50 yard retrieve. There will be plenty of time to stretch the retrieving out after you have gotten the dog into a routine and steady. Get the dog comfortable with what you want before adding in more "factors". Move on when he/she is executing and while it's still exciting for the dog. *"Make haste slowly"* was a quote from one old timer.


Gavan make the point simply and well. One of these days I will actually get it thru my head to have a simple goal for each session and work for that goal. Good stuff everyone.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

I'm with Brandy said:


> I agree with Hal that it is good for a bitch to remain intact until 8 or 9 years old. At about that age the threat of cancer becomes a concern and I have the bitch fixed at that point. Hal do you have any experience with the new spay procedure that only removes the ovaries ovariectomy (OVE) and leaves the uterus intact versus a ovariohysterectomy (OVH) which takes both?


Doug, 

RE OVE, then the uterine body and horn remain intact. Pyometra (an infection of the uterus) is one of the major causes of mortality in older intact females. This condition can strike suddenly with little warning, sometimes until its too late and septicemia/toxemia has set in. I've seen that happen more than once. The standard spay surgery is the safest.

Also, the incidence of mammary cancer in bi##hs increases dramatically the longer they are left intact. Its one of the most common neoplasms in female dogs. If you leave them intact for 8-9 years, you should be palpating mammary tissue regularly also for lumps and bumps.

Rod


----------



## yooperguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Doug,
> 
> RE OVE, then the uterine body and horn remain intact. Pyometra (an infection of the uterus) is one of the major causes of mortality in older intact females. This condition can strike suddenly with little warning, sometimes until its too late and septicemia/toxemia has set in. I've seen that happen more than once. The standard spay surgery is the safest.
> 
> Also, the incidence of mammary cancer in bi##hs increases dramatically the longer they are left intact. Its one of the most common neoplasms in female dogs. If you leave them intact for 8-9 years, you should be palpating mammary tissue regularly also for lumps and bumps.
> 
> Rod


This... is exactly what happened to my first ESS. She was fixed at 5 yo and developed mammary cancer sometime after that. Cancer operated on at 10 yo and 2 weeks after that she withered to nothing before I had to do that thing we all hate to do. Vets have given me differing advice on this over the years.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Doug,
> 
> RE OVE, then the uterine body and horn remain intact. Pyometra (an infection of the uterus) is one of the major causes of mortality in older intact females. This condition can strike suddenly with little warning, sometimes until its too late and septicemia/toxemia has set in. I've seen that happen more than once. The standard spay surgery is the safest.
> 
> Also, the incidence of mammary cancer in bi##hs increases dramatically the longer they are left intact. Its one of the most common neoplasms in female dogs. If you leave them intact for 8-9 years, you should be palpating mammary tissue regularly also for lumps and bumps.
> 
> Rod


Thanks for the info. My vet wants to do the standard procedure but I am going to wait until after Brandy gets her HRC Finished title. She just needs one more pass. Looks like I won't be able to run a test until next spring. To many things on the schedule to get it done this year.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

I'm with Brandy said:


> Thanks for the info. My vet wants to do the standard procedure but I am going to wait until after Brandy gets her HRC Finished title. She just needs one more pass. Looks like I won't be able to run a test until next spring. To many things on the schedule to get it done this year.


Well, Brandy has just been a _little busy_ the last couple of months, with her pups and all. She should be a lock to get the title next spring.

I haven't seen any solid data (large study, double blinded, 1 st class scientific journal etc) on the OVE vs OVH question. Will keep a sharp eye out for such however. But until one appears, and then is independently replicated as well by another study, I'm staying with the tried and true spay operation.

NB


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Good news on the puppy potty training, we have one that will go to the back door and cry to go potty and he isn't even 5 weeks old yet. The other two will go to the back door but they won't cry they wait and if no one shows up they go at the back door ( I love tile floors). But they get it they know they have to go out side. When they get up from their knap they will follow me out the back door and go out into the yard to potty. They have moved out of their whelping box and into a wire crate. They still go in the crate if someone doesn't make it home to let them out but that's is not their fault. I try to stop by the house every couple hours to feed and potty them.

One has realized the fun of chasing the cat, all 22 lbs. of him.


----------



## gundogguy

Well steadied and being sent on the retrieve! Tai has a couple of legs toward her Master title. This will be Karen's 2nd Master titled Field spaniel





 
and Karen has 2 young dogs in training waiting in the wings to make their entrance on the Master hunt test scene.. Wyatt and Suki.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Well steadied and being sent on the retrieve! Tai has a couple of legs toward her Master title. This will be Karen's 2nd Master titled Field spaniel
> 
> Karen and Mai Tai - YouTube
> 
> and Karen has 2 young dogs in training waiting in the wings to make their entrance on the Master hunt test scene.. Wyatt and Suki.


 
Mai Tai is looking good! Looks ready to take on the Master.


----------



## gundogguy

Zeta's last week with her breeder and future Hall of Famer trainer Mike Wallace, at Salmy Kennels West Virginia.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Nice looking doggie, nice manners, nice cover, great trainer.

You Go, Zeta girl!

NB


----------



## dauber

Good girl Zeta! Good job Mike, Hal and Nancy!


----------



## michgundog

Zeta is a good looking girl!!


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Nice looking doggie, nice manners, *nice cover*, great trainer.
> 
> You Go, Zeta girl!
> 
> NB


The reason Zeta went back to Mike was for that very reason 
*Nice cover, and of course Mike is top shelf,.* along with being able to run field trial set-ups 3-4 times per week under guns that pick-up and lay birds down properly. No meat dog shooting has taken place with her training.
Spring always comes to Michigan and we have great spaniel cover here if one treats their property correctly. However a decision was made to get Zeta into cover *6 weeks* ahead of what she could have here in Michigan. and that is reason she went east and south. The thought was to jump start her development once the starting process was finished, I already see the dividends from our decision. 
With proper starting and proper finishing she is a yearling ready to challenge the Master test standards. Land and water!


----------



## dauber

A couple months behind Zeta is Zac. Today he had his first bird shot for him. We set him up on the place board and I hand tossed a pigeon for Karen to shoot. I was in position to intercept him if he broke, but I was quite confident he has good and ready for this step. He never moved and was sent for the 60 yard retrieve thru reed canary grass and 2 mowed paths. 










Here is just completed the retrieve.










Now the "rest of the story"....a good friend of ours left us a GoPro to use this week to video the dogs. I didn't realize it also takes pictures It's a video camera eh. Well dummy me set it up to take 179 pictures that were 6mb each while Zac was steady and made his first shot bird retrieve. Then I also had a bunch of pictures of him flushing a pigeon, steady to flush, then me throwing the dead bird with Karen firing a shot and him steady to that too. Could have been a couple of nice vids:lol::lol:.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> A couple months behind Zeta is Zac. Today he had his first bird shot for him. We set him up on the place board and I hand tossed a pigeon for Karen to shoot. I was in position to intercept him if he broke, but I was quite confident he has good and ready for this step. He never moved and was sent for the 60 yard retrieve thru reed canary grass and 2 mowed paths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is just completed the retrieve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the "rest of the story"....a good friend of ours left us a GoPro to use this week to video the dogs. I didn't realize it also takes pictures It's a video camera eh. Well dummy me set it up to take 179 pictures that were 6mb each while Zac was steady and made his first shot bird retrieve. Then I also had a bunch of pictures of him flushing a pigeon, steady to flush, then me throwing the dead bird with Karen firing a shot and him steady to that too. Could have been a couple of nice vids:lol::lol:.


 
ATTA BOY ZAC! GoPro... technology reared it's head again... eh Steve??


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> A couple months behind Zeta is Zac. Today he had his first bird shot for him. We set him up on the place board and I hand tossed a pigeon for Karen to shoot. I was in position to intercept him if he broke, but I was quite confident he has good and ready for this step. He never moved and was sent for the 60 yard retrieve thru reed canary grass and 2 mowed paths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is just completed the retrieve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the "rest of the story"....a good friend of ours left us a GoPro to use this week to video the dogs. I didn't realize it also takes pictures It's a video camera eh. Well dummy me set it up to take 179 pictures that were 6mb each while Zac was steady and made his first shot bird retrieve. Then I also had a bunch of pictures of him flushing a pigeon, steady to flush, then me throwing the dead bird with Karen firing a shot and him steady to that too. Could have been a couple of nice vids:lol::lol:.


Nice pictures and awesome job, Zac & Team Dauber!


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## gundogguy

Looking good Steve and Karen! Zac man on a good course!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Looking good Steve and Karen! Zac man on a good course!


Agreed! Way to go Steve. 


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## dauber

I got the GoPro to work today:lol::lol:, er maybe I read the directions:evil:

Here is a repeat of Sunday's session, all about the same except the pigeon Zac flushed on Sunday stayed a might longer leading him to leap up on the flush.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> I got the GoPro to work today:lol::lol:, er maybe I read the directions:evil:
> 
> Here is a repeat of Sunday's session, all about the same except the pigeon Zac flushed on Sunday stayed a might longer leading him to leap up on the flush.
> 
> Zac 7 30 13 training - YouTube


Awesome! Good job Zac! Great looking video!


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## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> Awesome! Good job Zac! Great looking video!


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## JAM

Good stuff, Dauber. Thanks for sharing.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Well Jake is now 7 months old and has been doing well with all his training until the past week and a half. All of a sudden he's had a brain fart and isn't responding as well to commands and tries avoiding like getting all squirrely and jumping around when being guided into the heel position. What the heck have I done wrong? He was coming on in leaps and bounds and now he's just went stupid on me. I do 2 short sessions per day.


Not sure what you are up against. However whenever conflict arises, it would be prudent to back up and re-work behaviors that the student is very familiar with and confident in. 
Not clear as to what the healing issues are or why a 7month old spaniel would be required to be very precise at healing. Back up work on earlier
set-ups and routine that the pupster is very strong at. Or stop training give the little guy some time off! Let him do some growing, physically and mentally.

What does your retriever training partner think would be a good course of action?



dauber said:


> are catching on over the pond too.
> 
> Place Board Training - Ian Openshaw's Way - YouTube


It was only a matter of time. As I understand Opie, visited the USA back during the Springer NAC's(Nov 2012) and prolly spent some time with the folks out west that are using the Place board system, That's where it began back in the late 80's.
The promo is hitting the Web, FB, and so on1
Thanks for plugging us in .


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## PraerieDog

Thank you Dauber. This is a great technique for all gun dogs.


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## dauber

were mentioned a week or two ago. The video below is Zac doing remote retrieves of about 50 yards or so thru various height grasses as high as 5 feet and a couple of mowed paths.





 


gundogguy said:


> It was only a matter of time. As I understand Opie, visited the USA back during the Springer NAC's(Nov 2012) and prolly spent some time with the folks out west that are using the Place board system, That's where it began back in the late 80's.
> The promo is hitting the Web, FB, and so on1
> Thanks for plugging us in .





PraerieDog said:


> Thank you Dauber. This is a great technique for all gun dogs.


 
I do not believe Zac would be doing remote retrieves yet without the aid of the placeboards. Yes PraerieDog this is great for all gundogs and elephants according to Opie!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Well Jake is now 7 months old and has been doing well with all his training until the past week and a half. All of a sudden he's had a brain fart and isn't responding as well to commands and tries avoiding like getting all squirrely and jumping around when being guided into the heel position. What the heck have I done wrong? He was coming on in leaps and bounds and now he's just went stupid on me. I do 2 short sessions per day.


Is the only time you heal him at the retriever line? Or do you take walks with him and ask him to heal? And if so how does he do on the walks?


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> were mentioned a week or two ago. The video below is Zac doing remote retrieves of about 50 yards or so thru various height grasses as high as 5 feet and a couple of mowed paths.
> 
> Zac 7 31 13 - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe Zac would be doing remote retrieves yet without the aid of the placeboards. Yes PraerieDog this is great for all gundogs and elephants according to Opie!


Good stuff Dauber.
At what point will you be releasing Zac from the "place", from where you throw the marks or provide bird & gunfire stimulation?


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## dauber

Good question gundogguy.

We are taking baby steps towards that ends. We do the remote retrieve stuff 3-4 times a week, and the flushing/shooting off the board a couple times a week right now. Almost daily we do some yard/training ground work with very simple shot marks, along with shake-similar tasks in an easier form right now and our plan is once he has the flushing-shooting marking down cold off the board we will move towards off board. In that transition time I plan on starting a quartering session with a bird planted right in front of Zac on the board, have him do the task he is familiar with then move down the field and get a flush and shot. 

Of course all plans are flexible and will be adapted to how Zac is taking to it. I'm sure you noticed how Zac stood and didn't want to sit very early in the last video...I took that action as still being slightly overwhelmed so we are continuing at this level in various places with various helpers. 

Thanks for the question gundogguy.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Good question gundogguy.
> 
> We are taking baby steps towards that ends. We do the remote retrieve stuff 3-4 times a week, and the flushing/shooting off the board a couple times a week right now. Almost daily we do some yard/training ground work with very simple shot marks, along with shake-similar tasks in an easier form right now and our plan is once he has the flushing-shooting marking down cold off the board we will move towards off board. In that transition time I plan on starting a quartering session with a bird planted right in front of Zac on the board, have him do the task he is familiar with then move down the field and get a flush and shot.
> 
> Of course all plans are flexible and will be adapted to how Zac is taking to it. * I'm sure you noticed how Zac stood and didn't want to sit very* *early in the last video...I took that action as still being slightly* *overwhelmed so we are continuing at this level* in various places with various helpers.
> 
> Thanks for the question gundogguy.


Baby steps are fine. and you have done a good job of laying out the parameters of acceptable behavior. However it is now time to vary the program...Zac has you figured out! HE KNOWS THE DRILL! 
he is not overwhelmed he is cheating!( slow sits are a good sign of cheating) Change up.... One example..
Next time on the boards as you walk away from him "whirl to left or right in a exaggerated motion and flip the bumper a short distance, so that you are between him and the target...send him, quickly then send him slowly change the amount of time that Zac waits for the release. Initially you will be about 10yds away you watch attitude change when he is not sure of the when or the where the bumpers are coming or where you are going. Vary where you have him deliver the bumper sometimes to the boards some times not. You will still be taking baby steps but you will change what those steps look like to the Zacster .. Do not let him figure you out from here on out! Rely on the foundation you have built and you have built a good foundation! and that is why he is figuring your game out.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Baby steps are fine. and you have done a good job of laying out the parameters of acceptable behavior. However it is now time to vary the program...Zac has you figured out! HE KNOWS THE DRILL!
> he is not overwhelmed he is cheating!( slow sits are a good sign of cheating) Change up.... One example..
> Next time on the boards as you walk away from him "whirl to left or right in a exaggerated motion and flip the bumper a short distance, so that you are between him and the target...send him, quickly then send him slowly change the amount of time that Zac waits for the release. Initially you will be about 10yds away you watch attitude change when he is not sure of the when or the where the bumpers are coming or where you are going. Vary where you have him deliver the bumper sometimes to the boards some times not. You will still be taking baby steps but you will change what those steps look like to the Zacster .. Do not let him figure you out from here on out! Rely on the foundation you have built and you have built a good foundation! and that is why he is figuring your game out.


 
Ahhh! That's why he did better today with Yooperguy's young daughter handling him. Good idea and will incorporate it next time he does retrieving! Thanks.


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Ahhh! That's why he did better today with Yooperguy's young daughter handling him. Good idea and will incorporate it next time he does retrieving! Thanks.


Many thanks to dauber for another productive training day with the (906) group (-1) today. My daughter talked about being a "handler" today all the way home. Great idea you had to have her do that!

Belle had gunfire introduced into her training today. She didn't flinch. Chukar chase introduced today too. One got away from her and the rest of us too! She made sure to run down the second bird. Making progress a little bit each time and having a lot of fun doing it!


----------



## uppower

Missed you guys today but got the job!


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## dauber

uppower said:


> Missed you guys today but got the job!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Missed you too and CONGRATS!

Thanks for coming out YG and bringing your young daughter too! Belle is fun and coming along fine!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> Not sure what you are up against. However whenever conflict arises, it would be prudent to back up and re-work behaviors that the student is very familiar with and confident in.
> Not clear as to what the healing issues are or why a 7month old spaniel would be required to be very precise at healing. Back up work on earlier
> set-ups and routine that the pupster is very strong at. Or stop training give the little guy some time off! Let him do some growing, physically and mentally.
> 
> What does your retriever training partner think would be a good course of action?


I have taken the last 2 days off training to give him a break and going to go for a walk in the bush tomorrow, hoping to bump a wild bird for him. I think he just needs a bit of time to bugger around. My retrieving help tells me to stay the course and I will get through it, just adolescent behavior. So that is the plan, but as I said going to take a few days or a week to just have fun and leave the pressure for awhile.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

dauber said:


> are catching on over the pond too.
> 
> Place Board Training - Ian Openshaw's Way - YouTube


Good video I have heard Opie is using place boards. However he isn't really well liked over there from what I gather from most people on a UK forum I frequent. However, as we know the UK is all about purely positive training and don't like overly obedient dogs on the shooting line that need to be directed in what they do. I think they don't like him using place boards as he's being different and more recent... for what its worth. Place board training is fairly outdated here (at least in the retriever world) and although I use it and quite a few of us with lots of success, it certainly is an older methodology.


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## yooperguy

uppower said:


> Missed you guys today but got the job!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Congrats! See ya a bit more often I guess eh?


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Ahhh! That's why he did better today with Yooperguy's young daughter handling him. Good idea and will incorporate it next time he does retrieving! Thanks.


There are many times at Spaniel training class over the course of the year, that we put dogs names in hat and the handlers draw for a run..the only rule you can not run your own dog. You have to handle a dog where ever it is at in it's development. You should see how dogs and handler's grow...or not!


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> _However he isn't really well liked over there from what I gather from most people on a UK forum I frequent. _
> 
> I'll pass on that comment!
> 
> _However, as we know the UK is all about purely positive training and *don't like overly obedient dogs on the shooting line that need to be directed in what they do*. _
> 
> I do not really think you meant to say that!
> 
> 
> Place board training is fairly outdated here (at least in the retriever world) and although I use it and quite a few of us with lots of success, it certainly is an older methodology.


I train with retriever types at least twice a week, I'll let them know that the door mat "place boards" are now terrible out of date and the retriever world is not using the "place" concept anymore.
[/COLOR] 
Cass take your little Cocker bird hunting and have a good time. Donot worry about precision and manners until you decide what type and style of hunting companion you really want. Only you can set your own standards as to what dog should be not hundreds of folks across the world on the web.


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## michgundog

Hunt test info:

8/31 and 9/1 Ohio Valley in Bucyrus, OH Contact Brent LeMaster ([email protected])
9/7 and 9/8 NEOBDA in Ravenna, OH Contact Jared Lane ([email protected])



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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Good video I have heard Opie is using place boards. However he isn't really well liked over there from what I gather from most people on a UK forum I frequent.


Hopefully it's the guy and not the dogs. Can't argue about the success of Rytex dogs and the impact he's had on springers and cockers. 


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## CDN_Cocker

From what I understand its the guy - not the dogs. I think they speak for themselves. 





michgundog said:


> Hopefully it's the guy and not the dogs. Can't argue about the success of Rytex dogs and the impact he's had on springers and cockers.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire




Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> I almost put in my last reply that I will be attending the upcoming Tildon Vally ESS Trial at Black Duck on Sept. 21 and 22. I had told dauber some time back that I wanted to see for myself just what this stuff is all about and he kindly shared the trial info with me.
> 
> JAM - we're coming your way to see Stormy in action!
> 
> My daughter and I (and possibly my wife and other kids) have tentative plans to camp in the NF with dauber and Mrs. dauber that weekend. We can't wait! Maybe some grouse hunting too. This combined with the RGS youth hunt (my daughter is too young yet) we will be helping out with at Wycamp and Grouse season, will fill our Sept weekends with the stuff memories are made of!
> 
> We can't wait! Oh BTW - my 7 yo daughter, who is my gun dog training partner, hunting buddy, fishing buddy, camping buddy, and so much more, has PASSED HUNTER SAFETY this passed week! It was her first attempt and she is so proud. But not as proud as I. Must be that some of the stuff I've taught her while knocking around in the woods together has sunk in!


GREAT! Looking forward to meeting you and your family. I hope Stormy (AKA Devil Dog) won't put on any special shows for you.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> GREAT! Looking forward to meeting you and your family. I hope Stormy (AKA Devil Dog) won't put on any special shows for you.


 
Here is the chain gang from today's training.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Here is the chain gang from today's training.
> 
> TVESSC Chain gang 8 24 13 - YouTube


Thanks, Steve! I keep forgetting my camera and I wanted a picture of the pups on the chain gang.


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Now should we gear our dogs down to say like a Clumber or show bred Springer or Cocker?
> Would that be a more comfortable to work with?


I'll take the pit bull that was dodging cars on I-475 in Flint yesterday, now that's fearless in cover for ya!! Although I may not be very comfortable having him around my son. I think I'll stick to Springers. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> I'll take the pit bull that was dodging cars on I-475 in Flint yesterday, now that's fearless in cover for ya!! Although I may not be very comfortable having him around my son. I think I'll stick to Springers.
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Not sure how the pit bull would do with number 5?

_"what makes a spaniel a spaniel"
1. Drive, strength of quest, quartering style_
_2. Nose, bird finding ability_
_3. courage in the face of heavy cover_
_4. Strength of flush, boldness_
_5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth_
_6. The dogs acceptance of training_

These traits are very good at describing what I like in a spaniel! Those first 4 traits really give me a thrill when I see them. That's why I like spaniels vs other flushers and pointing dogs.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Not sure how the pit bull would do with number 5?
> 
> _"what makes a spaniel a spaniel"
> 1. Drive, strength of quest, quartering style_
> _2. Nose, bird finding ability_
> _3. courage in the face of heavy cover_
> _4. Strength of flush, boldness_
> _5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth_
> _6. The dogs acceptance of training_
> 
> These traits are very good at describing what I like in a spaniel! Those first 4 traits really give me a thrill when I see them. That's why I like spaniels vs other flushers and pointing dogs.


I agree. The pit received high marks in number 3 for sure. I'm sure he/she would have failed miserably on number 5. Sadly, this is not an uncommon site along this highway. Poor dogs....


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> Sadly, this is not an uncommon site along this highway. Poor dogs....
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yeah... That's just wrong. Very sad.


----------



## gundogguy

hidden location cast of "perps" on the chain gang! most with off premise passes to train spaniels in a group


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> hidden location cast of "perps" on the chain gang! most with off premise passes to train spaniels in a group


 
I'm surprised that batch op "perps" is allowed off the chain gang:tdo12: Shouldn't have been any living birds with that crew of gunners

Partial 906 training here today. YG's young Belle made a nice find and flush of a semi wild chukar! The Zacster had his first flushed and shot birds not off the place board, he is getting close to putting it all together.

Nice to see spaniels north and south out doing their thing! Thanks for the pic's gundogguy. Nice to see some of those characters still breathing.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Here is how Brandy's pups spent their 9 week birthday today. First time in water other than the kiddy pool in the back yard.

















Short video


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Here is how Brandy's pups spent their 9 week birthday today. First time in water other than the kiddy pool in the back yard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Short video


Pups are lookin' good having a great time cooling off. It was 93 F. here today. Good day for a water session.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> I'm surprised that batch op "perps" is allowed off the chain gang:tdo12: Shouldn't have been any living birds with that crew of gunners
> 
> Partial 906 training here today. YG's young Belle made a nice find and flush of a semi wild chukar! The Zacster had his first flushed and shot birds not off the place board, he is getting close to putting it all together.
> 
> Nice to see spaniels north and south out doing their thing! Thanks for the pic's gundogguy. Nice to see some of those characters still breathing.


Good job Yoopers and Trolls. Especially good job, Zac! Way to go!


----------



## JAM

Look what's after my pigeons. It was fun to watch it trying to get in my big pen which is totally enclosed. But then... At dark all my homers came filing out of the homer coop obviously on the run.

Went out to find this huge (like a small turkey) goshawk in the coop having lunch on my birds. It didn't even care that I was standing in the doorway about 4 feet from it. Too late tonight to do anything about it. I'll have to start locking up the pen at night from now on. GEEZ!

I tried to get a picture of it in the coop but it was too dark and the camera wouldn't fire.


----------



## michgundog

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=26140&cat=500


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=26140&cat=500





michgundog said:


> JAM what you said makes for a good question. Which is a better all around spaniel an AFC or a MH? My vote is for the MH


Now in case some one contacts me looking for a pup Are these all-round spaniels? MH type spaniels? or AFC type spaniels?
In other words would these pups slow, medium, or hot to trot?


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> I tried to get a picture of it in the coop but it was too dark and the camera wouldn't fire.


HOLY JUMPIN' AVIAN PREDATOR, JILL!!! That hawk is HUGE!

I'm not sure I've ever seen a goshawk in the wild. Seen 'em in zoos and such. A favorite of falconers. Good luck in keeping yr birds alive.:tdo12:

These hawks are just one of the agents who have been blamed for the fabled "grouse cycle". Tied into population highs and lows of snowshoe hares in Canada, etc. I have no idea whether this is correct or not. But I do know that these things are a very efficient avian predator and could surely eat a lot of grouse in a year.

NB


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Now in case some one contacts me looking for a pup Are these all-round spaniels? MH type spaniels? or AFC type spaniels?
> In other words would these pups slow, medium, or hot to trot?


I'll let their progeny speak for itself. 




Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Look what's after my pigeons. It was fun to watch it trying to get in my big pen which is totally enclosed. But then... At dark all my homers came filing out of the homer coop obviously on the run.
> 
> Went out to find this huge (like a small turkey) goshawk in the coop having lunch on my birds. It didn't even care that I was standing in the doorway about 4 feet from it. Too late tonight to do anything about it. I'll have to start locking up the pen at night from now on. GEEZ!
> 
> I tried to get a picture of it in the coop but it was too dark and the camera wouldn't fire.


We've had a Coopers hanging around here. Goofy thing keep swooping thru the our clays range



michgundog said:


> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=26140&cat=500


Good luck with the litter Mike.


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=26140&cat=500


Puppies! How exciting! Can't wait for the pictures.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> We've had a Coopers hanging around here. Goofy thing keep swooping thru the our clays range
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with the litter Mike.


Thanks, I had the easy part,my friend and owner of the female will have all the work. I will post pictures once the pups are born. Per the ultra sound Dr Schultz counted 10 pups. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gundogguy

some of the training action from Glessfta's Sunday session.
Nancy Jo at the handle of Zeta





 
Tuff retrieve back in the wood off to left of the training field


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> We've had a Coopers hanging around here. Goofy thing keep *swooping thru the our clays range*
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with the litter Mike.


Lets me get this right Coopers hanging in a "no fly zone"

Do the three S's apply?


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I'll let their progeny speak for itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yea I know every one has talking dogs' but how should I describe the breeding if some contacts me looking for pups. Remember I sold two of your pups, B. Marchants pup and T. Johnson's pup. Some description would be nice.
Is this breeding a pet quality trial quality or test quality breeding?


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> HOLY JUMPIN' AVIAN PREDATOR, JILL!!! That hawk is HUGE!
> 
> I'm not sure I've ever seen a goshawk in the wild. Seen 'em in zoos and such. A favorite of falconers. Good luck in keeping yr birds alive.:tdo12:
> 
> These hawks are just one of the agents who have been blamed for the fabled "grouse cycle". Tied into population highs and lows of snowshoe hares in Canada, etc. I have no idea whether this is correct or not. But I do know that these things are a very efficient avian predator and could surely eat a lot of grouse in a year.
> 
> NB


And now the rest of the story...

Here we were thrilled to get a picture of it:










Here's the best picture (which you've already seen but I like it.  ):










And here's the rotten, pigeon predator in my homing pigeon coop! It got in last night and couldn't get out. Surprisingly it only killed 2 adult pigeons. There are quite a few young sitting in the nesting boxes that are still there this morning:


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> some of the training action from Glessfta's Sunday session.
> Nancy Jo at the handle of Zeta
> 
> YouTube
> 
> Tuff retrieve back in the wood off to left of the training field
> 
> Zeta back from the wood - YouTube


Hal, The first video says, "Private" so I can't see it. The second one works fine... Just like Ms. Zeta. Excellent!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Hal, The first video says, "Private" so I can't see it. The second one works fine... Just like Ms. Zeta. Excellent!


 
First vid is working now. Ms. Zeta is looking real good. Sure is a good mover and nice and steady on the flush.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Hal, The first video says, *"Private"* so I can't see it. The second one works fine... Just like Ms. Zeta. Excellent!


Should be good to go!
Thanks


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Should be good to go!
> Thanks


YUP! Great running little pup. Nice and steady on the flush, too. Good job, Zeta!


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> some of the training action from Glessfta's Sunday session.
> Nancy Jo at the handle of Zeta
> 
> YouTube
> 
> Tuff retrieve back in the wood off to left of the training field
> 
> Zeta back from the wood - YouTube


Zeta 2nd contact volunteered no retrieve no matter what.





 
Mechanics this week will be "bird in mouth marking drill" and water marks and the beginning blinds. Bird work at Glessfta next weekend.


----------



## dauber

Zac doing some quartering at TVESSC training last weekend.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Zac doing some quartering at TVESSC training last weekend.
> 
> Zac quartering 8 24 13 - YouTube


Nice job, Zac! Good boy!


----------



## dauber

Here is Smoke's first bird at TVESSC training last weekend. He flushed the pigeon, it was shot and dropped, then flushed again at about the 1:08 mark on his retrieve. It was good timing for this to happen since earlier in the week in training at home he had this happen and the shot bird flushed and stayed about waist high for 75 yards until it hit the woods with Smoke chasing. I kept the whistle in my pocket until the bird hit the woods and separated from him, then I called him in. Should I have had him sit in that situation? In this video the bird got up pretty well and separated quickly so I hupped him. It was a good training situation and gave me some confidence he will sit on the flush at a long distance. Thanks for making this situation happen JAM.





 
He is still having some struggles with the centerline and still listening to the other handlers whistle some. A few more weeks to go before his first trial.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Here is Smoke's first bird at TVESSC training last weekend. He flushed the pigeon, it was shot and dropped, then flushed again at about the 1:08 mark on his retrieve. It was good timing for this to happen since earlier in the week in training at home he had this happen and the shot bird flushed and stayed about waist high for 75 yards until it hit the woods with Smoke chasing. I kept the whistle in my pocket until the bird hit the woods and separated from him, then I called him in. Should I have had him sit in that situation? In this video the bird got up pretty well and separated quickly so I hupped him. It was a good training situation and gave me some confidence he will sit on the flush at a long distance. Thanks for making this situation happen JAM.
> 
> Smoke 8 24 13 first bird - YouTube
> 
> He is still having some struggles with the centerline and still listening to the other handlers whistle some. A few more weeks to go before is first trial.


Smoke's looking good! This is the first time I've ever been thanked for missing a bird. You're welcome.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is Smoke's first bird at TVESSC training last weekend. He flushed the pigeon, it was shot and dropped, then flushed again at about the 1:08 mark on his retrieve. It was good timing for this to happen since earlier in the week in training at home he had this happen and the shot bird flushed and stayed about waist high for 75 yards until it hit the woods with Smoke chasing. I kept the whistle in my pocket until the bird hit the woods and separated from him, then I called him in. Should I have had him sit in that situation? In this video the bird got up pretty well and separated quickly so I hupped him. It was a good training situation and gave me some confidence he will sit on the flush at a long distance. Thanks for making this situation happen JAM.
> 
> Smoke 8 24 13 first bird - YouTube
> 
> *He is still having some struggles with the centerline and still listening to the other handlers whistle some. A few more weeks to go before is first* trial.


Running the *parallel course* takes some time to condition. A little different than hunting, hunt testing, or running in a RGS fun trial. However I can see from the vids you guys are making good progress. By the time you get Zac attack running in brace this will be all old school for you. Right on TVESSC.

lOL, Jam you cannot believe how many times some one has thanked me for missing LOLOLOLO


----------



## PraerieDog

Great stuff Dauber and Gundogguy. Thanks much!


----------



## Gavan

As a judge I would see a bird that flushes from the exact spot of the fall the dog was sent on, AND flies waist high, to be the dogs bird until it separates, or elevates away from the dog. Most handlers are yelling or whistling at that point and the dog rarely listens and the dog/handler are OUT at that point. However, if the handler stays quiet and the bird flushed from where the dog could reasonably be expected to believe that the bird that flushed was the one they were sent for then I will take the bird from the handler and excuse them and NOT send them back to the area of the fall.

As to whether you should have stopped him during the chase that is up to you. Are you absolutely sure he would stop? If not, then the answer is no you shouldn't try. Having said all that there are judges that JUST KNOW everything that happens regardless of whether they see it or not. Those judges will throw you out because your dog has to be smart enough to know the bird they were sent for from all other birds in the universe. I try not to run under those judges. (-:


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> As a judge I would see a bird that flushes from the exact spot of the fall the dog was sent on, AND flies waist high, to be the dogs bird until it separates, or elevates away from the dog. Most handlers are yelling or whistling at that point and the dog rarely listens and the dog/handler are OUT at that point. However, if the handler stays quiet and the bird flushed from where the dog could reasonably be expected to believe that the bird that flushed was the one they were sent for then I will take the bird from the handler and excuse them and NOT send them back to the area of the fall.
> 
> As to whether you should have stopped him during the chase that is up to you. Are you absolutely sure he would stop? If not, then the answer is no you shouldn't try. Having said all that there are judges that JUST KNOW everything that happens regardless of whether they see it or not. Those judges will throw you out because your dog has to be smart enough to know the bird they were sent for from all other birds in the universe. I try not to run under those judges. (-:


Gavan, great answer! What was Dauber question?


----------



## Gavan

of Smoke. "Should I have made him sit?".... Sorry I'm not all techy like you guys, underlining and highlighting and all that jazz. (-:


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> of Smoke. "Should I have made him sit?".... Sorry I'm not all techy like you guys, underlining and highlighting and all that jazz. (-:


Like I said it was a great answer! Thanks, I felt like maybe I had entered a game show where the answer was given and we had to figure out the question that it pertained to. man o man it's hot!


----------



## Gavan

at your computer wondering what the hell I'm talking about rather than out training dogs. I re-read Daubers post and I am wondering what I was talking about also since there were two incidents, not one. Anyway if you can train your dog to stop on a flush while out on a retrieve, or recognize the bird he was sent for vs. all other birds in the universe, then go for it. Otherwise keep quiet and hope you have a judge who has a clue. OK, nevermind...


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> at your computer wondering what the hell I'm talking about rather than out training dogs. I re-read Daubers post and I am wondering what I was talking about also since there were two incidents, not one. Anyway if you can train your dog to stop on a flush while out on a retrieve, or recognize the bird he was sent for vs. all other birds in the universe, then go for it. Otherwise keep quiet and hope you have a judge who has a clue. OK, nevermind...


Sorry guys, hot here too but training is a long ways away and usually takes my whole day. Luckily there is a pond 20 yards from where we ran today.

I thought it might have been a little confusing me mixing 2 separate days of training, but the situation was the same except the one at home the bird flew about 30" off the ground for 50-75 yards with Smoke hot on it's tail. I kept my whistle in my pocket. On the border of my backyard training field is some very think spruce and cedar where the bird got separation from Smoke. At the time separation became clear I whistled him back in to me and he came. My question was should have I tried to whistle hup him, or was it ok to just call him off?

Another very good TVESSC training today, much thanks to JAM and our leader Bob. It is beginning to sink in that you just have to train a bunch and the situations arise as they arise. 

Thanks for the help guys.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> at your computer wondering what the hell I'm talking about *rather than out training dogs.* I re-read Daubers post and I am wondering what I was talking about also since there were two incidents, not one. Anyway if you can train your dog to stop on a flush while out on a retrieve, or recognize the bird he was sent for vs. all other birds in the universe, then go for it. Otherwise keep quiet and hope you have a judge who has a clue. OK, nevermind...


On these hot days I start at 7:00am barely light done be for it gets ridicules.
That's really the old Texan Hold'em call do you commit to the dogs behavior or do you takes your chances....In my book no real right answer, at least on paper. Rely on the training you have with dog.
If that don't work it's a long ride home!



dauber said:


> Sorry guys, hot here too but training is a long ways away and usually takes my whole day. Luckily there is a pond 20 yards from where we ran today.
> 
> I thought it might have been a little confusing me mixing 2 separate days of training, but the situation was the same except the one at home the bird flew about 30" off the ground for 50-75 yards with Smoke hot on it's tail. * I kept my whistle in my pocket*. On the border of my backyard training field is some very think spruce and cedar where the bird got separation from Smoke. At the time separation became clear I whistled him back in to me and he came. My question was should have I tried to whistle hup him, or was it ok to just call him off?
> 
> Another very good TVESSC training today, much thanks to JAM and our leader Bob. It is beginning to sink in that you just have to train a bunch and the situations arise as they arise.
> 
> Thanks for the help guys.


Now your getting somewhere it takes a lot of training time spread out over time to recreate all the things that can happen in a trial. That is one of the main reason trialers train the way they do. You know 2 guns 2-3 birds lets go!
My question is why would you have your whistle in your pocket during training? the whistle is not a bad thing it is your link to your dog. If any thing your voice could be very toxic to a dog while doing bird work. By the time you get it out of your pocket it is to late to use so you might as not use it at all..

Yea I would have run him dog letting him know I was very unhappy. That might have been fine the SH test but if your training for trial you run his butt down Old the old axiom applies "doing any thing you have to do to keep your dog in the trial" must also apply to training

The 3rd series of a trial is only time the whistle goes in your pocket..


----------



## dauber

The "whistle in my pocket" was a figure of speech, it was in my mouth I just didn't blow it. I guess that would be a day we went back to the camper before the trial finished. I am quite sure I could have stopped him with the whistle, but would have rather had him catch it. We'll see how it goes in a couple weeks, one weekend will do my trial fix for this year.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> The "whistle in my pocket" was a figure of speech, it was in my mouth I just didn't blow it. I guess that would be a day we went back to the camper before the trial finished. I am quite sure I could have stopped him with the whistle, but would have rather had him catch it. We'll see how it goes in a couple weeks, one weekend will do my trial fix for this year.


Sorry about that "In the pocket" I never dreamed that the whistle was NOT in your pocket!:lol:
As I mention in the early post, most situations on "paper" cannot be answered clearly you kind of had to be there to make the call properly.


----------



## JAM

I saw this on Facebook and liked it. With trialling season right around the corner I thought this would be fitting.

_WHY TITLE A DOG?

Not just a brag, not just a stepping stone to a higher title, not just an adjunct to competitive scores, a title is a tribute to the dog that bears it, a way to honor the dog, an ultimate memorial. It will remain in the record and in memory for as long as anything in this world can remain. Few humans will do as well or better in that regard.

And though the dog itself doesnt know or care that its achievements have been noted, a title says many things in the world of humans, where such things count.

A title says your dog was intelligent and adaptable, and good-natured. It says that your dog loved you enough to do the things that please you, however crazy they may have sometimes seemed.

And a title says that you loved your dog, that you loved to spend time with it because it was a good dog, that you believed in it enough to give it yet another chance when it failed, and that, in the end, your faith was justified.

A title proves that your dog inspired you to that special relationship enjoyed by so few; that in a world of disposable creatures, this dog with a title was greatly loved, and loved greatly in return.

And when that dear short life is over, the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend, volumes of pride in some small set of initials before and/or after the name.

A title earned is nothing less than love and respect, given and received, and permanently recorded.

-Sandra Mowery
_


----------



## Gavan

his statement that one would have to be there to make the proper call on the chase situation. Handler has to make a call on whether the dog is going to catch the weak low flier and whether and when to stop the dog if it doesn't catch the bird . Judge has to assess the same thing from the dogs point of view. All pretty subjective and lots of variables.


----------



## Gavan

Love this post JAM. I truly make an effort to help each dog reach it's true potential and make decisions on how I will spend my spare time based on that premise. I am currently focused on getting one point to finish Gavan's AFC and it is making for a truly ridiculous schedule this fall. If I can get it out of the way early I will have a lot more fun hunting this fall. If not I will need to run more trials and lose hunting time that I will never get back. However, I believe it is HIS destiny and I must make it a priority.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> Love this post JAM. I truly make an effort to help each dog reach it's true potential and make decisions on how I will spend my spare time based on that premise. I am currently focused on getting one point to finish Gavan's AFC and it is making for a truly ridiculous schedule this fall. If I can get it out of the way early I will have a lot more fun hunting this fall. If not I will need to run more trials and lose hunting time that I will never get back. However, I believe it is HIS destiny and I must make it a priority.


 
+1 Thanks JAM.

Good luck to Gavan and you this fall in reaching his full potential. Hope you get to hunting early.


----------



## JAM

Gavan said:


> Love this post JAM. I truly make an effort to help each dog reach it's true potential and make decisions on how I will spend my spare time based on that premise. I am currently focused on getting one point to finish Gavan's AFC and it is making for a truly ridiculous schedule this fall. If I can get it out of the way early I will have a lot more fun hunting this fall. If not I will need to run more trials and lose hunting time that I will never get back. However, I believe it is HIS destiny and I must make it a priority.


So glad you like the message. Hope Gavan completes his AFC soon and you're free to hunt. We'll be waiting on bated breath to hear the news of his AFC title.

Best of luck trialling and hunting.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I saw this on Facebook and liked it. With trialling season right around the corner I thought this would be fitting.
> 
> _WHY TITLE A DOG?_
> 
> _Not just a brag, not just a stepping stone to a higher title, not just an adjunct to competitive scores, a title is a tribute to the dog that bears it, a way to honor the dog, an ultimate memorial. It will remain in the record and in memory for as long as anything in this world can remain. Few humans will do as well or better in that regard._
> 
> _And though the dog itself doesnt know or care that its achievements have been noted, a title says many things in the world of humans, where such things count._
> 
> _A title says your dog was intelligent and adaptable, and good-natured. It says that your dog loved you enough to do the things that please you, however crazy they may have sometimes seemed._
> 
> _And a title says that you loved your dog, that you loved to spend time with it because it was a good dog, that you believed in it enough to give it yet another chance when it failed, and that, in the end, your faith was justified._
> 
> _A title proves that your dog inspired you to that special relationship enjoyed by so few; that in a world of disposable creatures, this dog with a title was greatly loved, and loved greatly in return._
> 
> _And when that dear short life is over, the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend, volumes of pride in some small set of initials before and/or after the name._
> 
> _A title earned is nothing less than love and respect, given and received, and permanently recorded._
> 
> _-Sandra Mowery_


I agree I love that sentiment, I'm glad their are folks out there that can put into words the way I feel as well. Jam, Thanks for sharing and thinking of us Spaniel folks.

_"A title earned is nothing less than love and respect, given and received, and permanently recorded."_




Gavan said:


> Love this post JAM. I truly make an effort to help each dog reach it's true potential and make decisions on how I will spend my spare time based on that premise. I am currently focused on getting one point to finish Gavan's AFC and it is making for a truly ridiculous schedule this fall. If I can get it out of the way early I will have a lot more fun hunting this fall. If not I will need to run more trials and lose hunting time that I will never get back. However, I believe it is HIS destiny and I must make it a priority.


Good for you, Gavan Full speed ahead nose to the grind stone! Hie-on!


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## The Doob

Hal, thanks for sharing that - it puts things in the right light for sure. I have always been a "rough shooting dog" kind of guy so the memories and stories are just between myself and my hunting buddies. But I never took the time to help them earn their "degree" - maybe I should have :sad:


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## gundogguy

The Doob said:


> Hal, thanks for sharing that - it puts things in the right light for sure. I have always been a "rough shooting dog" kind of guy so the memories and stories are just between myself and my hunting buddies. But I never took the time to help them earn their "degree" - maybe I should have :sad:


Well "rough shooting dog kinda guy" describes just about every one I know that has ever titled a Spaniel. Wives of "rough shooting dog guys' excluded.

During the 70's thru the 90's Me and my buds spent an awful lot of time in the Northern 3rd of Michigan hunting Gr. and WC. Running a surly pack of Spaniels and Labs. Over time we learned there was just more to it than hunting up a few birds every week.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Hey everyone. I don't post often but always keep up to date on the posts. I was wondering (maybe 1 too many ciders) why you never see a set flow of training for spaniels. As spanielers we are of course outnumbered but what makes it even harder is that for a novice spaniel man like myself there is no clear cut path. Pointing dog people have programs, HPRs have programs, retrievers have programs... The general consensus for a new gun dog owner is to pick a program and stick with it. However if you were brave (or crazy or smart) enough to get into the flushing spaniel world there is nothing for you to go on. If you were to make a program what would it look like? What would be the order in which things are trained? 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Hey everyone. I don't post often but always keep up to date on the posts. I was wondering (maybe 1 too many ciders) why you never see a set flow of training for spaniels. As spanielers we are of course outnumbered but what makes it even harder is that for a novice spaniel man like myself there is no clear cut path. Pointing dog people have programs, HPRs have programs, retrievers have programs... The general consensus for a new gun dog owner is to pick a program and stick with it. *However if you were brave (or crazy or smart) enough to get into the flushing spaniel world there is nothing for you to go on. If you were to make a program what would it look like? What would be the order in which things are trained? *
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


No reason to re-invent the wheel. The "formula" for training a flushing spaniel for North America has been around since the breeds first field trial on Fishers island in 1927.
Formulated By A.R. Moffitt and Walton Ferguson in the beginning and latter organized and put into print By Charles Goodall.
The Goodall system and variations there of are used by every spaniel training group in North America whether they know it or not.
At todays training class I will be using many aspects of the Goodall system on a wide variety of sporting dogs.
Charlie's writings are part of larger work called "The Complete English Springer Spaniel"

Over the years concepts and techniques have evolved, but the need for the basics are ever present in the proper development of a proper shooting dog. 
The photo listed will show the Authors as Julia Gasow and Edd Roggencamp 111.
Rogge did a rewrite in 1996 updated many of the photos notable additions in the winners columns. He did not add any commentary to the training "formula"
However the basic training formulated That Charlie penned is still there.

Now in the beginning of your journey with your pup, you were encouraged to seek out and visit Alex Smith of Ontarios ESS, Alex knows the spaniel system forwards and backwards. He is the best asset you have in Oh Canada! You tell him, I said that when you finally meet.


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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Hey everyone. I don't post often but always keep up to date on the posts. I was wondering (maybe 1 too many ciders) why you never see a set flow of training for spaniels. As spanielers we are of course outnumbered but what makes it even harder is that for a novice spaniel man like myself there is no clear cut path. Pointing dog people have programs, HPRs have programs, retrievers have programs... The general consensus for a new gun dog owner is to pick a program and stick with it. However if you were brave (or crazy or smart) enough to get into the flushing spaniel world there is nothing for you to go on. If you were to make a program what would it look like? What would be the order in which things are trained?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


If I remember correctly from your videos, your dog has a good retrieve. You may want to start working on his other strengths as a Spaniel ie. quartering and flush. Both you can do yourself. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## michgundog

The Doob said:


> Hal, thanks for sharing that - it puts things in the right light for sure. I have always been a "rough shooting dog" kind of guy so the memories and stories are just between myself and my hunting buddies. But I never took the time to help them earn their "degree" - maybe I should have :sad:


Dale, the pics of your son with Sully and the roosters are as rewarding if not more so, than a dog "degree". I hope to make some memories like that with my own boys some day. If your interested in possibly running Sully in a hunt test SMSSTC will be holding our hunt test in the spring you may want to look into it. Hope all is well with you, your family and spaniels.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## CDN_Cocker

michgundog said:


> If I remember correctly from your videos, your dog has a good retrieve. You may want to start working on his other strengths as a Spaniel ie. quartering and flush. Both you can do yourself.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yes he retrieves birds and dummies well to hand (or I guess to board would be more accurate). I have done a bit of quartering work with pigeons in a field and a friend gunning and he has been gun broke and had a few birds shot over him which he retrieved. I have not required him to be steady so when he flushes he chases the birds. His obedience could use some polishing but I've just worried about putting too much pressure on him too soon. He is now 8 months. He has a lot of go in him - he never stops. Just don't know if I should work on control more or wait until he gets some wild birds under his belt and understands more what he is doing

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> Now in the beginning of your journey with your pup, you were encouraged to seek out and visit Alex Smith of Ontarios ESS, Alex knows the spaniel system forwards and backwards. He is the best asset you have in Oh Canada! You tell him, I said that when you finally meet.


I did exchange a few emails with Alex back when I first got my pup but he is about a 6 hour drive from me so getting together for training isn't likely. He was very nice though and sounds like a great guy! He is the only person up here who breeds cockers (and even then he doesn't broadcast it).


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> I did exchange a few emails with Alex back when I first got my pup but he is *about a 6 hour drive from me* so getting together for training isn't likely. He was very nice though and sounds like a great guy! He is the only person up here who breeds cockers (and even then he doesn't broadcast it).


 
Oh the irony, My first training classes were in Lebanon Ohio(Just north of Cincinnati) Made the trip once a month for a number of years, to train with spaniel folks that I had bought my first pup from. *7 hours one way* from where we lived in Michigan. Great folks the Watkins, Jack and Marilynn
they put up with me till the was no tomorrow. I loved them dearly for they had done for me as a Spaniel man and as a dog trainer.


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## Birddog8487

CDN_Cocker said:


> Hey everyone. I don't post often but always keep up to date on the posts. I was wondering (maybe 1 too many ciders) why you never see a set flow of training for spaniels. As spanielers we are of course outnumbered but what makes it even harder is that for a novice spaniel man like myself there is no clear cut path. Pointing dog people have programs, HPRs have programs, retrievers have programs... The general consensus for a new gun dog owner is to pick a program and stick with it. However if you were brave (or crazy or smart) enough to get into the flushing spaniel world there is nothing for you to go on. If you were to make a program what would it look like? What would be the order in which things are trained?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I've been following Edward Martins teachings from the video "Spaniel Training Master Class" Part One: puppy to eight months. Easy to follow instructions and my results have been good. I have two pups with very different personalities and have had good results with both. Give it a look.


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## gundogguy

Birddog8487 said:


> I've been following Edward Martins teachings from the video "Spaniel Training Master Class" Part One: puppy to eight months. Easy to follow instructions and my results have been good. I have two pups with very different personalities and have had good results with both. Give it a look.


+1 for the E. Martins vids. he has some very good info. 
The "Formula" that CDN Cocker seeks like the Retriever world has is relative to the fact the Retriever training at precise standards is Very necessary. It is the "nature of the beast" so to speak.
Spaniel training though it has elements of retrieving, is really more about developing " a bull in a china shop". It really has nothing to do with precision in usual sense. or least in the definition that that retriever people seek in their dogs. 
Personally and I have trained and worked with a large number of pointy type dogs I know of no formula that the pointing dog world uses a guide that could challenge the Rex Carr formula for training retrievers and their owners.. His approach as are his disciples approach amazingly detailed in the exercises and concepts that taught. Disciples being Mike Lardy, Evan Graham, Dave Rorem, Denny Voight
As stated earlier the Chuck Goodall formula is the best approach for basics for the North American spaniel person. Of course there are allowances for other styles and programs However if one follows Chuck Goodall you not end up to far off base Jim Spencer has some fine writings on the way to the American spaniel training as does Ken Roebuck. and Ed Martins

However follow one philosophy and do not go into information OVERLOAD...It will only handicap your dogs growth!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Oh the irony, My first training classes were in Lebanon Ohio(Just north of Cincinnati) Made the trip once a month for a number of years, to train with spaniel folks that I had bought my first pup from. *7 hours one way* from where we lived in Michigan. Great folks the Watkins, Jack and Marilynn
> they put up with me till the was no tomorrow. I loved them dearly for they had done for me as a Spaniel man and as a dog trainer.


Oh yes the travelling when we were younger! Like GDG we made monthly weekend trips to lower Michigan, Wisconsin and Ohio the short trips were 5 hours the long ones over 12. But the influences of GDG, John Isaacs, and those from the SMSSTC were so helpful in teaching and showing us what the possibilities were. So much of running a spaniel in the field is reading the dog, the conditions, and knowing the quarry, all at the same time. This is something you need to learn from experience and isn't in any book.

Thankfully the TVESSC people put up with us now...only a 1.75 hour drive one way for training Their experience and help has been very appreciated.


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## dauber

Got a look at the entries for the cocker field trials September 13,14, and 15 down near Camden! There are 2 former NFC's running, last years 2nd place in the Nationals, and numerous FC's of the 48 dogs entered! This will be a great chance for this rookie to watch some very successful handlers and dogs. I see even ESS guy Ben Martin has a dog entered!


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Oh yes the travelling when we were younger! Like GDG we made monthly weekend trips to lower Michigan, Wisconsin and Ohio the short trips were 5 hours the long ones over 12. But the influences of GDG, John Isaacs, and those from the SMSSTC were so helpful in teaching and showing us what the possibilities were. So much of running a spaniel in the field is reading the dog, the conditions, and knowing the quarry, all at the same time. This is something you need to learn from experience and isn't in any book.
> 
> Thankfully the TVESSC people put up with us now...only a 1.75 hour drive one way for training Their experience and help has been very appreciated.


Well I don't know if I qualify as young now.  But just getting started this year with dauber as a spaniel mentor. Its a little over an hour drive one way and I'm feeling pretty lucky about that. I would drive that drive any day of the week for the training time we put in while there. Well worth it to me. 

GDG told me back in February that while there are many good books out there, that reading them all might just be more frustrating than enlightening. Also that when I did get the chance to see some of the drills and processes that some "ah ha" moments would follow and the various texts would mean so much more. All true stuff. I've left the books alone for the most part this summer. I'll pick 'em back up this winter when the snow is deep.


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## METRO1

Just got home from training with dave and another buddy today at andy s acres.cover is thick.here is address to cocker trail andy s acres.7451 dimmers road.camden.mi.49232.young dog to watch is metro s blowing smoke.he s out of woody and buddy bitch izzy I trained with today.also dave owner of club has his litter mate


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## dauber

METRO1 said:


> Just got home from training with dave and another buddy today at andy s acres.cover is thick.here is address to cocker trail andy s acres.7451 dimmers road.camden.mi.49232.young dog to watch is metro s blowing smoke.he s out of woody and buddy I trained with today.also dave owner of club has his litter mate


I'll be watching Metro! Saw that Smoke in the entries, although my closest eye will be on Oahes Ghost Rider my Smoke:evil:. You going to make it out? 

I have been passing out info on your current breeding.


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## METRO1

Yes .staying at daves for all 3 nites.u coming down .and thanks for passing on info of pups.and due anytime now.poor mossy is huge.but for not being 2 years old yet smoke s doing great.finished 2 trails in spring but didn t get placement


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## dauber

METRO1 said:


> Yes .staying at daves for all 3 nites.u coming down .and thanks for passing on info of pups.and due anytime now.poor mossy is huge.but for not being 2 years old yet smoke s doing great.finished 2 trails in spring but didn t get placement


Yes we'll be there all 3 days. Camping at fairgrounds in Coldwater. Be good to see you again.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Got a look at the entries for the cocker field trials September 13,14, and 15 down near Camden! There are 2 former NFC's running, last years 2nd place in the Nationals, and numerous FC's of the 48 dogs entered! This will be a great chance for this rookie to watch some very successful handlers and dogs. I see even ESS guy Ben Martin has a dog entered!


 
Good to see! Got to love that Entry Express, That is amazing site. You can really get to bottom of stuff quickly. No if 'and's or but's about it.
48 open dogs this certainly is a warm-up for the Cocker National's!
Friday the 13th looks like a good day for me to darken:evil: the venue


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Good to see! Got to love that Entry Express, That is amazing site. You can really get to bottom of stuff quickly. No if 'and's or but's about it.
> 48 open dogs this certainly is a warm-up for the Cocker National's!
> Friday the 13th looks like a good day for me to darken:evil: the venue


I'll look forward to seeing you. They are coming from all over too, quite a bunch from ND, Texas, and out east. Going to be an interesting 3 days.


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## dauber

Here's a video of Smoke running last Tuesday, it was a very hot day for us yoopers, with a light downwind course.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkp-o4nhIlM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUh7l4_O8RDOqeHMQAZ0KwEg"]Smoke 2nd and 3rd bird 8 27 13 - YouTube[/ame]


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Got a look at the entries for the cocker field trials September 13,14, and 15 down near Camden! There are 2 former NFC's running, last years 2nd place in the Nationals, and numerous FC's of the 48 dogs entered! This will be a great chance for this rookie to watch some very successful handlers and dogs. I see even ESS guy Ben Martin has a dog entered!


Great entry in the Open. Sounds like a warm-up event leading up to the National CH in NoDak. FBECS trialers coming from all over the country! Will be interesting who's in top form, and who's not.

Good Luck to Smokey and the other entries too.

NB


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Here's a video of Smoke running last Tuesday, it was a very hot day for us yoopers, with a light downwind course.
> 
> Smoke 2nd and 3rd bird 8 27 13 - YouTube


Nice video, Dauber. Nice run, Smoke!

And... In case you're wondering what Steve's chuckling about, well... Ahem... Smoke managed to find the pigeon that at least 2 (maybe more - don't remember) of the springers couldn't find.  Good boy, Smoke!


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## dauber

dauber said:


> I'll be watching Metro! Saw that Smoke in the entries, although my closest eye will be on Oahes Ghost Rider my Smoke:evil:. You going to make it out?


 
Friday Metro's Blowing Smoke runs 2nd, our Smoke runs 25th. Saturday Metro's Blowing Smoke runs 9th, or Smoke 41st, Sunday Blowing Smoke runs 6th, the other Smoke runs 11th.


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## METRO1

Good luck to u...how old is ur smoke


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## dauber

METRO1 said:


> Good luck to u...how old is ur smoke


 
Good luck to you too! He will be 4 years old in October.


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## METRO1

Thanks.smokes 2 on sept.7th


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## METRO1

Just a tip for u.cover is thick.dave.scott and I trained yesterday
Hopefully it cools down for trail.


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## dauber

METRO1 said:


> Just a tip for u.cover is thick.dave.scott and I trained yesterday
> Hopefully it cools down for trail.


Thanks, we'll work in some thick stuff to get ready.


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## METRO1

Swim him to so he s in tip top condition


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Good luck to you too! He will be 4 years old in October.





METRO1 said:


> Thanks.smokes 2 on sept.7th





METRO1 said:


> Just a tip for u.cover is thick.dave.scott and I trained yesterday
> Hopefully it cools down for trail.





dauber said:


> Thanks, we'll work in some thick stuff to get ready.





METRO1 said:


> Swim him to so he s in tip top condition


I'm looking forward to this! It's been 20 yrs since I been to the A. Acres 
so this should be fun!. I' ll bring the rooting section.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> I'm looking forward to this! It's been 20 yrs since I been to the A. Acres
> so this should be fun!. I' ll bring the rooting section.


Andy's Acres along with Dave's hospitality will be a great choice for this trial. Good luck to all, I wish I could make it down to be in the rooting section too. 


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## METRO1

Hal u gunning any of trails


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## gundogguy

METRO1 said:


> Hal u gunning any of trails


No sir! I'm retired from weekend servitude. Eleven years was plenty I did my share, and it was enjoyable, the gunning that is. Pounding the pavement, or the windshield time was just not very enjoyable. Time to step a side and let some one else have a go! 
My training schedule is just much more enjoyable, and leaves me a richer feeling of accomplishment,... also leaves me richer:lol:

Best of fortunes over next few months, unless this a one done weekend for and your little dog. Then have good fall hunting!


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## METRO1

Not my dog..I bred him.kevin from MN owns him.


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## JAM

Good luck ECS trialers! I'll be rooting for you from this side of the bridge. Hope you'll be able to keep us updated.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Good luck ECS trialers! I'll be rooting for you from this side of the bridge. Hope you'll be able to keep us *updated*.


At this time I will commit to pictures and possible video reporting of the Friday 13th stake.


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> At this time I will commit to pictures and possible video reporting of the Friday 13th stake.


And we'll look forward to them too, Hal. THANKS in advance.


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## gundogguy

Concerning the *versatility* of the flushing spaniel. 
These are different species that me dogs have either produce for the gun and retrieved or due to style of hunt just flat retrieved. 
How about your flushing spaniels have they had and opportunity to be versatile?


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## gundogguy

ducks of various species and The King The Ring-neck pheasant!


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## dauber

Here's 2 of the species...










a couple more prairie king and the hun...










and of course my favorite the timberdoodle...


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## yooperguy

Great pics you guys. Inspirational too!


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## JAM

Great pictures. A wonderful tribute to your talented pups.


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## michgundog

[ame]http://www.cafepress.com/dogs_of_war/1693278[/ame]


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## michgundog

[ame]http://www.cafepress.com/dogs_of_war/1693278[/ame]


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> http://www.cafepress.com/dogs_of_war/1693278
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


That's the darndest thing I have ever seen! Thanks for sharing it twice.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> That's the darndest thing I have ever seen! Thanks for sharing it twice.


I need a new phone!! Not sure why it posted twice??? How many Tshirts did you order? 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> I need a new phone!! Not sure why it posted twice??? How many Tshirts did you order?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 









Good one Mike:evil:. I had some chessies that my friends obeyed:SHOCKED:


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Good one Mike:evil:. I had some chessies that my friends obeyed:SHOCKED:


I LIKE IT! Very cool!


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## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Concerning the *versatility* of the flushing spaniel.
> These are different species that me dogs have either produce for the gun and retrieved or due to style of hunt just flat retrieved.
> How about your flushing spaniels have they had and opportunity to be versatile?


 
Quail, Dove, Ruffed Grouse, Sharp tail, Pheasant, Chukar, Ducks: Mallard, redhead, divers, few others, eww coots, Rabbit, Bambi but we let those go no enough meat. But she does flush them and she is steady to the flush. She did find a bear but it wouldn't flush it was sleeping under a down tree trunk.










If you train your dog in warm water it can over heat.


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## Padilen

I can't view the pictures.


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## gundogguy

Hey Metro1 take more pics and we will see you Friday! At Andy's


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## CDN_Cocker

Anyone looking for high caliber cocker pups pm me. Jim K has a few available (same sire as mine and the dam is my dog's grand dam so they are hard charging pups)

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## METRO1

5 days old now, 5 pups spoken for and 4 to go. Phenominal bloodline. Just a few of the noteable dogs such as: Danderw Druid, Parkbreck Perfection, Jasper of Parkbreck, Warner's California Quail, Oahe Sentinal, Flathome Accord, Diana Floss of Winmillwood, Wernffrd Cymro Du, Wind Whistle M. Vida, along with loads of other Eftch. Research the caliber of just those few.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Anyone looking for high caliber cocker pups pm me. Jim K has a few available (same sire as mine and the dam is my dog's grand dam so they are hard charging pups)
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I'll see Jim tomorrow I'll visit with him directly. 



METRO1 said:


> 5 days old now, 5 pups spoken for and 4 to go. Phenominal bloodline. Just a few of the noteable dogs such as: Danderw Druid, Parkbreck Perfection, Jasper of Parkbreck, Warner's California Quail, Oahe Sentinal, Flathome Accord, Diana Floss of Winmillwood, Wernffrd Cymro Du, Wind Whistle M. Vida, along with loads of other Eftch. Research the caliber of just those few.


Thanks for the pics! The raw material is there now ,just have to fine good solid training homes to bring it out and develop.


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## NATTY BUMPO

METRO1 said:


> 5 days old now, 5 pups spoken for and 4 to go. Phenominal bloodline. Just a few of the noteable dogs such as: Danderw Druid, Parkbreck Perfection, Jasper of Parkbreck, Warner's California Quail, Oahe Sentinal, Flathome Accord, Diana Floss of Winmillwood, Wernffrd Cymro Du, Wind Whistle M. Vida, along with loads of other Eftch. Research the caliber of just those few.


CONGRATS on a very nice litter, Gary. That pedigree reads like a "who's who" of Field Champion English Cockers, from both sides of the pond.
Druid, Parkbreck, Warrener's, Oahe, Windmillwood, etc etc.

Good timing too. Guys can get a pup now, raise them up, train next summer and be ready to go a year from now. Ideal age for their first season.

NB


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## dauber

METRO1 said:


> 5 days old now, 5 pups spoken for and 4 to go. Phenominal bloodline. Just a few of the noteable dogs such as: Danderw Druid, Parkbreck Perfection, Jasper of Parkbreck, Warner's California Quail, Oahe Sentinal, Flathome Accord, Diana Floss of Winmillwood, Wernffrd Cymro Du, Wind Whistle M. Vida, along with loads of other Eftch. Research the caliber of just those few.


Nice looking pups Metro!! Cool colors. Fantastic dogs in the background. Good luck with finding homes for the last 4.


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## CDN_Cocker

Great pics Metro! Love that liver roan mother!


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## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> I'll see Jim tomorrow I'll visit with him directly.


They're out of Ammo and Sam (Lisa's mom). Should be about 6 months old right now. He was texting me the other night asking if I knew anyone looking. Tell him Nick says hi when you see him.


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## gundogguy

[quote 



METRO1 said:


> 5 days old now, *5 pups spoken for and 4 to* *go.* Phenominal bloodline. Just a few of the noteable dogs such as: Danderw Druid, Parkbreck Perfection, Jasper of Parkbreck, Warner's California Quail, Oahe Sentinal, Flathome Accord, Diana Floss of Winmillwood, Wernffrd Cymro Du, Wind Whistle M. Vida, along with loads of other Eftch. Research the caliber of just those few.


 
Very nice! Which 4 are available?



NATTY BUMPO said:


> CONGRATS on a very nice litter, Gary. That pedigree reads like a "who's who" of Field Champion English Cockers, from both sides of the pond.
> Druid, Parkbreck, Warrener's, Oahe, Windmillwood, etc etc.
> Good timing too. Guys can get a pup now, raise them up, train next summer and be ready to go a year from now. Ideal age for their first season.
> 
> NB


 
+1! Natty You know the flow! Good solid training with have 'em in the Woods and/or Puppy Stakes by next September!


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## I'm with Brandy

Be careful about taking a dog to Ohio at this time. I got this e-mail today from my HRC club.


INVITATIONAL ALERT!!
You may have heard there has been a recent outbreak of illness in dogs in several areas around Ohio. The
Executive Council is monitoring the situation and is in contact with the Ohio State Veterinarian for updates.
The EC has voted to continue with the Invitational. If we are notified of an outbreak in the immediate area of the
Mingo Sportsman&#8217;s Club we will reevaluate the situation.
Here are the facts as we know them:
· Infected dogs present with severe vomiting, bloody diarrhea, extreme lethargy, neurological problems, a
loss of appetite and if left untreated, acute vaculitis (when the body&#8217;s blood vessels become damaged
and leak fluid into the body).
· Ohio State has ruled out common bacterial infections such as salmonella, campylobacter and
hemorrhagic gastroenteritis.
· While the state believes this is a viral and not bacterial infection, they are still waiting for test results
from UC Davis. They hope to make a national announcement on Monday.
· Because of the unique symptoms, they suspect the viral contagion is dog circovirus (DogCV).
Circovirus is a common virus in pigs, but not in dogs.
· Their best estimate on the incubation period is one to two days.
· They are evaluating all risk factors, but believe it is primarily spread through fecal material.
· The outbreaks have been reported in Akron, Canton, Youngstown and Cincinnati, Ohio&#894; the closest
being about 50 miles from the Mingo test grounds.
· If dogs are treated by a veterinarian early, their chances of survival are good.
· There are news stories that speculate dogs in other states may also have DogCV. Those stories have not
been validated by officials.
We are asking all handlers to abide by the following precautions to reduce the risk to your dogs and to prevent
spreading this to other areas of the U.S. and Canada:
· DO NOT let your dogs out at rest areas in Ohio, particularly in the affected areas!
· When taking your dogs on a bathroom break, avoid contact with other canine fecal matter and pick up
and dispose of your dog&#8217;s feces. We will have bags widely available during the Invitational.
· Please bring your dog&#8217;s inoculation records with you. If your dog becomes ill, the treating
veterinarian will want to know as much about your dog&#8217;s health history as possible.
· Please do not bring any additional dogs to the Invitational.
· If you see a sick dog, particularly on the Mingo grounds, report it to one of the field marshals
immediately!
· Act as you would if this was a human flu outbreak: wash your hands frequently, wear clean clothes to
the event, bag your dirty clothes when you go home and wash them in hot water to limit exposure
locally. This is to prevent crosscontamination
with other dogs. Hand sanitizer will be widely available
during the Invitational.
· We strongly discourage the touching of other people&#8217;s dogs throughout the event.
· Handlers will not be allowed to bring their dogs to the opening or closing ceremonies. While we
understand this will disappoint many of you, those two events present the greatest risk of cross
contamination to your dogs and is a precaution we must implement.
We know how hard you&#8217;ve worked all summer to have a successful Invitational. These efforts are being taken to
ensure that your dog goes home healthy enough for an equally successful hunting season.
Marilyn Vetter
NAVHDA President


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Be careful about taking a dog to Ohio at this time. I got this e-mail today from my HRC club.
> 
> 
> INVITATIONAL ALERT!!
> You may have heard there has been a recent outbreak of illness in dogs in several areas around Ohio. The
> Executive Council is monitoring the situation and is in contact with the Ohio State Veterinarian for updates.
> The EC has voted to continue with the Invitational. If we are notified of an outbreak in the immediate area of the
> Mingo Sportsmans Club we will reevaluate the situation.
> Here are the facts as we know them:
> · Infected dogs present with severe vomiting, bloody diarrhea, extreme lethargy, neurological problems, a
> loss of appetite and if left untreated, acute vaculitis (when the bodys blood vessels become damaged
> and leak fluid into the body).
> · Ohio State has ruled out common bacterial infections such as salmonella, campylobacter and
> hemorrhagic gastroenteritis.
> · While the state believes this is a viral and not bacterial infection, they are still waiting for test results
> from UC Davis. They hope to make a national announcement on Monday.
> · Because of the unique symptoms, they suspect the viral contagion is dog circovirus (DogCV).
> Circovirus is a common virus in pigs, but not in dogs.
> · Their best estimate on the incubation period is one to two days.
> · They are evaluating all risk factors, but believe it is primarily spread through fecal material.
> · The outbreaks have been reported in Akron, Canton, Youngstown and Cincinnati, Ohio&#894; the closest
> being about 50 miles from the Mingo test grounds.
> · If dogs are treated by a veterinarian early, their chances of survival are good.
> · There are news stories that speculate dogs in other states may also have DogCV. Those stories have not
> been validated by officials.
> We are asking all handlers to abide by the following precautions to reduce the risk to your dogs and to prevent
> spreading this to other areas of the U.S. and Canada:
> · DO NOT let your dogs out at rest areas in Ohio, particularly in the affected areas!
> · When taking your dogs on a bathroom break, avoid contact with other canine fecal matter and pick up
> and dispose of your dogs feces. We will have bags widely available during the Invitational.
> · Please bring your dogs inoculation records with you. If your dog becomes ill, the treating
> veterinarian will want to know as much about your dogs health history as possible.
> · Please do not bring any additional dogs to the Invitational.
> · If you see a sick dog, particularly on the Mingo grounds, report it to one of the field marshals
> immediately!
> · Act as you would if this was a human flu outbreak: wash your hands frequently, wear clean clothes to
> the event, bag your dirty clothes when you go home and wash them in hot water to limit exposure
> locally. This is to prevent crosscontamination
> with other dogs. Hand sanitizer will be widely available
> during the Invitational.
> · We strongly discourage the touching of other peoples dogs throughout the event.
> · Handlers will not be allowed to bring their dogs to the opening or closing ceremonies. While we
> understand this will disappoint many of you, those two events present the greatest risk of cross
> contamination to your dogs and is a precaution we must implement.
> We know how hard youve worked all summer to have a successful Invitational. These efforts are being taken to
> ensure that your dog goes home healthy enough for an equally successful hunting season.
> Marilyn Vetter
> NAVHDA President


WOW! Scary stuff! Thanks for the heads-up, IWB.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Be careful about taking a dog to Ohio at this time. I got this e-mail today from my HRC club.
> 
> 
> INVITATIONAL ALERT!!
> You may have heard there has been a recent outbreak of illness in dogs in several areas around Ohio. The
> Executive Council is monitoring the situation and is in contact with the Ohio State Veterinarian for updates.
> The EC has voted to continue with the Invitational. If we are notified of an outbreak in the immediate area of the
> Mingo Sportsman&#8217;s Club we will reevaluate the situation.
> Here are the facts as we know them:
> · Infected dogs present with severe vomiting, bloody diarrhea, extreme lethargy, neurological problems, a
> loss of appetite and if left untreated, acute vaculitis (when the body&#8217;s blood vessels become damaged
> and leak fluid into the body).
> · Ohio State has ruled out common bacterial infections such as salmonella, campylobacter and
> hemorrhagic gastroenteritis.
> · While the state believes this is a viral and not bacterial infection, they are still waiting for test results
> from UC Davis. They hope to make a national announcement on Monday.
> · Because of the unique symptoms, they suspect the viral contagion is dog circovirus (DogCV).
> Circovirus is a common virus in pigs, but not in dogs.
> · Their best estimate on the incubation period is one to two days.
> · They are evaluating all risk factors, but believe it is primarily spread through fecal material.
> · The outbreaks have been reported in Akron, Canton, Youngstown and Cincinnati, Ohio&#894; the closest
> being about 50 miles from the Mingo test grounds.
> · If dogs are treated by a veterinarian early, their chances of survival are good.
> · There are news stories that speculate dogs in other states may also have DogCV. Those stories have not
> been validated by officials.
> We are asking all handlers to abide by the following precautions to reduce the risk to your dogs and to prevent
> spreading this to other areas of the U.S. and Canada:
> · DO NOT let your dogs out at rest areas in Ohio, particularly in the affected areas!
> · When taking your dogs on a bathroom break, avoid contact with other canine fecal matter and pick up
> and dispose of your dog&#8217;s feces. We will have bags widely available during the Invitational.
> · Please bring your dog&#8217;s inoculation records with you. If your dog becomes ill, the treating
> veterinarian will want to know as much about your dog&#8217;s health history as possible.
> · Please do not bring any additional dogs to the Invitational.
> · If you see a sick dog, particularly on the Mingo grounds, report it to one of the field marshals
> immediately!
> · Act as you would if this was a human flu outbreak: wash your hands frequently, wear clean clothes to
> the event, bag your dirty clothes when you go home and wash them in hot water to limit exposure
> locally. This is to prevent crosscontamination
> with other dogs. Hand sanitizer will be widely available
> during the Invitational.
> · We strongly discourage the touching of other people&#8217;s dogs throughout the event.
> · Handlers will not be allowed to bring their dogs to the opening or closing ceremonies. While we
> understand this will disappoint many of you, those two events present the greatest risk of cross
> contamination to your dogs and is a precaution we must implement.
> We know how hard you&#8217;ve worked all summer to have a successful Invitational. These efforts are being taken to
> ensure that your dog goes home healthy enough for an equally successful hunting season.
> Marilyn Vetter
> NAVHDA President


Thanks for posting! I will not be patting any handlers or dogs from Ohio, Friday, at the Cocker trial.
I'll bring my spray bottle of bleach with me also. Give'em all a good bleaching.
I do remember when Parvo 1st came on the scene it was in Ohio, we were down in Cincinnati training, a vet from Ohio State stopped by to inject dogs and had people the spray down their boots before we made the trip home


----------



## gundogguy

Good day at the Cocker trial. Light winds out the north with a north south course. Making it downwind- upwind all day. Temps excellent for dog work, 60degrees. Cover consisted of a heavy mix of mustard and rag weed thus negating the cool temps making scenting fair to poor, with dogs having to dig the Bucyrus pheasants out of the dense and times gnarly cover. The kind of trial that made gallery watching a guess most of the time. Sure you could see the strong flying birds come up however you never really knew where the dog was, and retrieves were "judged' by the gallery based on time the dog was out on the mark. Lots of handling and lots of adventure.

Our guy Dauber and his fine dog Smoke did a fine job for the two series that I witnessed. Smoke made 2 contacts in both the first and second series. with a total of 4 retrieves. As I recall there was handling on only one bird a cripple along a fence line. I was very proud of the Work Steve and Smoke did being in their 1st AA trial. Do to the size of the trial (46 starter and 36 dogs in the 2nd) and my own personal time constraints, at this time I do not have the final results.
Because of the tough conditions, I will not speculate as to who the judges brought back to the 3rd and final series. 

More info and photo's to be forthcoming
1st photo Steve conferring with judge Zulegar
2nd photo Smoke's 2nd contact 2nd series


----------



## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> Good day at the Cocker trial. Light winds out the north with a north south course. Making it downwind- upwind all day. Temps excellent for dog work, 60degrees. Cover consisted of a heavy mix of mustard and rag weed thus negating the cool temps making scenting fair to poor, with dogs having to dig the Bucyrus pheasants out of the dense and times gnarly cover. The kind of trial that made gallery watching a guess most of the time. Sure you could see the strong flying birds come up however you never really knew where the dog was, and retrieves were "judged' by the gallery based on time the dog was out on the mark. Lots of handling and lots of adventure.
> 
> Our guy Dauber and his fine dog Smoke did a fine job for the two series that I witnessed. Smoke made 2 contacts in both the first and second series. with a total of 4 retrieves. As I recall there was handling on only one bird a cripple along a fence line. I was very proud of the Work Steve and Smoke did being in their 1st AA trial. Do to the size of the trial (46 starter and 36 dogs in the 2nd) and my own personal time constraints, at this time I do not have the final results.
> Because of the tough conditions, I will not speculate as to who the judges brought back to the 3rd and final series.
> 
> More info and photo's to be forthcoming
> 1st photo Steve conferring with judge Zulegar
> 2nd photo Smoke's 2nd contact 2nd series


Thanks for the report gdg. Nice photos too. Wish I could have made the trip to watch. Great job dauber and Smoke!


----------



## Gavan

Be careful you might catch that trial bug and become obsessed. (-: Building your life around field trial dates and training sessions. It's a bleak existence....(-:


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Be careful you might catch that trial bug and become obsessed. (-: Building your life around field trial dates and training sessions. It's a bleak existence....(-:


 
So true Gavan, You know when your in the gallery and you over hear conversations you know you are with a group folks that "Are to heavy for light work and light for heavy work, and trialing is all they are really capable of doing..it just makes me laugh.

short vid of Dauber's 2nd contact in the 1st series..


----------



## JAM

Thanks for the "play by play" GDG. Great pics and video, too.

I received a quick text message from Steve. Smoke didn't place but to finish a trial on your very first run is AWESOME! Congrats Smoke & Steve.

Bueller, 1st. Liz, 3rd is all the info I have.


----------



## michgundog

Good job dauber and smoke. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## michgundog

Gavan said:


> when it comes to building a bird finder. Discuss.....(-:


Genetics, training and experience. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Great Job by Steve and Smoke to finish in their very first AA trial. Congrats to 'ya both.

And THANKS to GDG for the FT report, pics and especially the nice video.
Well Done.


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Great Job by Steve and Smoke to finish in their very first AA trial. Congrats to 'ya both.
> 
> And THANKS to GDG for the FT report, pics and especially the nice video.
> Well Done.


Way to go Dauber, take a crack at Saturday the 14th.
As a side note The conditions at Andy's Acres were by far away the toughest cover I seen in the fifteen years of going to Cocker trials, as a gun or spectator. and that covers 3 states.


----------



## Hunting with Drake

Well the little dog did great this morning!!! We didn't get 100' from the truck and he flushed his first bird!!! Flush, Shoot, Retrieve....Game on!!! It was the only bird this morning. Then the rain came :sad: hunted a little in a light drizzle then it was a outright down pour....we packed it up for the day.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Hunting with Drake said:


> Well the little dog did great this morning!!! We didn't get 100' from the truck and he flushed his first bird!!! Flush, Shoot, Retrieve....Game on!!! It was the only bird this morning. Then the rain came :sad: hunted a little in a light drizzle then it was a outright down pour....we packed it up for the day.


Sounds like a good start to the season. I don't hunt on the weekends so I didn't even hit the woods. We had rain most of the morning here. I will be out everyday this week. And back in on the weekend. It is so quiet during the week. I don't hear anyone screaming at there out of control dog during the week.:lol:


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> So true Gavan, You know when your in the gallery and you over hear conversations you know you are with a group folks that "Are to heavy for light work and light for heavy work, and trialing is all they are really capable of doing..it just makes me laugh.
> 
> short vid of Dauber's 2nd contact in the 1st series..
> 
> Steve and Smoke 1series - YouTube


 
I see some Fox Valley members there. What birds did they use?


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I see some Fox Valley members there. What *birds* did they use?


 
Denny Cortaid Pheasants, Bucyrus Ohio
Roosters and Hens


----------



## gundogguy

Hunting with Drake said:


> Well the little dog did great this morning!!! We didn't get 100' from the truck and he flushed his first bird!!! Flush, Shoot, Retrieve....Game on!!! It was the only bird this morning. Then the rain came :sad: hunted a little in a light drizzle then it was a outright down pour....we packed it up for the day.


Very Nice nothing like getting that 1st bird in a new pups career!!


----------



## Hunting with Drake

I'm with Brandy said:


> Sounds like a good start to the season. I don't hunt on the weekends so I didn't even hit the woods. We had rain most of the morning here. I will be out everyday this week. And back in on the weekend. It is so quiet during the week. I don't hear anyone screaming at there out of control dog during the week.:lol:


We went out on State Land and never seen anyone (they probably seen the weather report). I guess I wanted to get Drake his first bird. After that it just wasnt worth hunting in a downpour.


----------



## Hunting with Drake

gundogguy said:


> Very Nice nothing like getting that 1st bird in a new pups career!!


 Thanks, We had a great time, many more hunts to come but this one will always be special.


----------



## dauber

Thanks everyone. Smoke had a fun weekend as did Karen and I. We got lots of information over the 3 days, now to decipher what was BS and what is useful. I'm not sure I can believe Ben Martin says but I did take every chance I had to shag behind him. I do have sore cheek muscles from laughing at some of these characters. Hal is right, most of them are pure trailers.

Smoke seemed to like to preform when he went to the line and put himself in a good position the first day to win, but being my first trial, and the 2 dogs in front of me passing birds I was a little too cautious and made sure he covered the course completely, which I he did but that left him with short finds, easy shots and short retrieves, therefore no placement. Both judges told me he was their top dog going into the 3rd. I was quite pleased just to get through all 3 series clean with 6 retrieves. Metro's Smoke was one of the best dogs there too, and could have won without one "blip" in the 3rd. 

Our second open was a tough first series, with better scenting conditions Smoke was quite intent on finding all the birds in the field, therefore I had to do a lot of whistling to keep him on our beat. His first find was in some head high grass swath that came out and was shot at just about the same time as one was shot on the other course that fell in front of him as he came out of the grass. I called him in, and ran it as a blind but he was quite intent on the one he saw. With quite a few casts he did get in and make the retrieve, but the judges didn't think that was good enough to come back for the 3rd series. His second series was clean, but nothing special.

Today at the amateur we again had a struggle with the center line, his first bird was a nice find that was shot at about 60 yards across 2 mowed paths, a strip of 4 foot high grass and a large area of heavy cover. It took him quite a bit of time but did make the retrieve, his second contact was a short 40 yard mark. The second series he made his best find of the trial, the outside gunner missed the first shot dropped it on the second about 80-90 yards out with numerous challenges. He took a real nice line, and about 10 yards before getting to it flushed another pheasant. That seemed to mess him up and he wouldn't get past that area. It was a great opportunity to look good but today he couldn't make that one so we were on our way home. 

Talking with some of the pro's they did look at this one as the National warm-up. Walt came from Virginia once he saw who was entered. Entry express really helped draw in the entries.

It was nice spending some time talking with Metro1 and watching one of the dogs from his breeding do very well all 3 days, his Smoke is going to be making a splash in trials very soon. Also nice to meet Champ and Dale, Champ is a very talented cocker who picked a good owner.

Gavan, I don't think our pocket book is thick enough to get into the trial game too much, but we will enter again next year. It is a good way to see where we are at in training and to see how well the dog stands up to 3 days of trials. 

Now to get out hunting!


----------



## gundogguy

Really nice to see You and Karen Friday. and it was exciting watching You and Smoke run your first AA trial. Praerie dog and also enjoyed meeting the Zac attack.
[/COLOR] 




dauber said:


> Thanks everyone. Smoke had a fun weekend as did Karen and I. We got lots of information over the 3 days, now to decipher what was BS and what is useful. I'm not sure I can believe Ben Martin says but I did take every chance I had to shag behind him. I do have sore cheek muscles from laughing at some of these characters. Hal is right, most of them are pure trialers.
> 
> Ben has been a great sportsmen and ambassador for the Springer trial game for some 35 years. Though he is a newbie to the Cocker game.
> Here is the thing about the pure trialers they finance the research into the gene pool of their respective Spaniel breeds like no other faction. and the hunters are the beneficiary's of the investment in time and dollars.
> 
> 
> 
> Smoke seemed to like to preform when he went to the line and put himself in a good position the first day to win, but being my first trial, and the 2 dogs in front of me passing birds I was a little too cautious and made sure he covered the course completely, which I he did but that left him with short finds, easy shots and short retrieves, therefore no placement. Both judges told me he was their top dog going into the 3rd. I was quite pleased just to get through all 3 series clean with 6 retrieves. Metro's Smoke was one of the best dogs there too, and could have won without one "blip" in the 3rd.
> 
> Our second open was a tough first series, with better scenting conditions Smoke was quite intent on finding all the birds in the field, therefore I had to do a lot of whistling to keep him on our beat. His first find was in some head high grass swath that came out and was shot at just about the same time as one was shot on the other course that fell in front of him as he came out of the grass. I called him in, and ran it as a blind but he was quite intent on the one he saw. With quite a few casts he did get in and make the retrieve, but the judges didn't think that was good enough to come back for the 3rd series. His second series was clean, but nothing special.
> 
> Today at the amateur we again had a struggle with the center line, his first bird was a nice find that was shot at about 60 yards across 2 mowed paths, a strip of 4 foot high grass and a large area of heavy cover. It took him quite a bit of time but did make the retrieve, his second contact was a short 40 yard mark. The second series he made his best find of the trial, the outside gunner missed the first shot dropped it on the second about 80-90 yards out with numerous challenges. He took a real nice line, and about 10 yards before getting to it flushed another pheasant. That seemed to mess him up and he wouldn't get past that area. It was a great opportunity to look good but today he couldn't make that one so we were on our way home.
> 
> Talking with some of the pro's they did look at this one as the National warm-up. Walt came from Virginia once he saw who was entered. Entry express really helped draw in the entries.
> 
> It was nice spending some time talking with Metro1 and watching one of the dogs from his breeding do very well all 3 days, his Smoke is going to be making a splash in trials very soon. Also nice to meet Champ and Dale, Champ is a very talented cocker who picked a good owner.
> 
> Gavan, I don't think our pocket book is thick enough to get into the trial game too much, but we will enter again next year. It is a good way to see where we are at in training and to see how well the dog stands up to 3 days of trials.
> 
> The life of a Trialer and his/her dog
> 
> 1st series Well can we handle conditions?
> 2nd series Yes we can handle what is being thrown at us and can we keep our dog in the trial?
> 
> 3rd series Yes we are still in this thing! Now are we ready to play Texas hold'em and be all in!!!! Let 'er rip
> 
> Now to get out hunting!




Good job Steve, training is the thing, take smoke and dante out and goof off on those Grouse and Wood cock and pheasants. Keep that Zac growing and learning we all want to see him out there next year.

By the way Nancy and I were training about 15mile east of you on Sunday how was scenting with front approaching?


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> By the way Nancy and I were training about 15mile east of you on Sunday how was scenting with front approaching?


Scenting was good as the front approached. Very few passed birds.

It was also nice to meet Mr. Wilson and gain some wisdom from him, very nice man.

Hope yous had a good training session.


----------



## JAM

Great report, Dauber. Very proud of you and Smoke. And glad you had a good time.


----------



## Rysalka

Yesterday Punk and I hunted about an hour in the drizzle.
During scouting expiditions this year we located numerous Woodcock but few Grouse.
So was somewhat surprised at the number of Grouse we flushed, out of black berries and cherries. One covey of 4 birds and 3 singles which I don't believe were birds out of the covey.
At the sight of the shotgun Punk for got all manners and ranged pretty far out considering the cover, so I was sucking air from blowing my spaniel whistle trying to keep him close.......Hup training was forgotten, worked great toward the end of the hunt though...
I did get three good shots but all were misses...
Was a great first day hunt.

This was my first year on fully healed knee replacements.....nice to hunt with no pain...

Good hunting to all.


----------



## dauber

Rysalka said:


> Yesterday Punk and I hunted about an hour in the drizzle.
> During scouting expiditions this year we located numerous Woodcock but few Grouse.
> So was somewhat surprised at the number of Grouse we flushed, out of black berries and cherries. One covey of 4 birds and 3 singles which I don't believe were birds out of the covey.
> At the sight of the shotgun Punk for got all manners and ranged pretty far out considering the cover, so I was sucking air from blowing my spaniel whistle trying to keep him close.......Hup training was forgotten, worked great toward the end of the hunt though...
> I did get three good shots but all were misses...
> Was a great first day hunt.
> 
> This was my first year on fully healed knee replacements.....nice to hunt with no pain...
> 
> Good hunting to all.


Fantasitic to hear Rysalka! Glad both them knees are bending! Give Punk a pat from me.


----------



## Gavan

points to my question about wild birds. Tough scenting and heavy cover is where the hunted dog shines. Experience tracking wild birds is of immeasuarable value. A puppy can find birds and look good in an upwind in light cover on planted pen raised birds. In fact some hot pups fresh from the puppy stake can win all age trials in an upwind under the right conditions. That's why as a judge I put significant weight on conditions and whether the dog ran upwind or downwind. All things being equal the dog that is challenged by a downwind course and succeeds will get the nod. As a contestant I love to run the end of an upwind/downwind course and get one bird of each. That weighs heavily on a competent judges mind for better or worse.

I applaud your effort to run on consecutive days but it takes a dog with a select temperament to "keep it between the ditches" for three days in a row. I believe that each dog only has so many trials in them before they become "trial wise" and problems creep in. I'm not aware of many who get better on the 3rd day than they were on the first.

Gavan is a very intense dog and I am resigned to not running him on consecutive weekends let alone days. The more "drive" the dog has the harder it is to keep them steady, responding to the whistle, and in gun range in a trial scenario. You will get surprised each time you run. It's like wow where did that come from. You'll see all kinds of reactions you'll never see while hunting or training

The adrenaline rush you get from trialing is addictive but IMHO it's only a part of what makes an all around spaniel. A dog that only succeeds in a trial environment is of limited value to me and in some cases I question it's value as a breeding specimen.

I'll be hunting in Mackinac county Sat, Sun, and Monday. My twosome has swelled to a threesome. Not my idea but you know how it goes. Hope to see you if possible.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> points to my question about wild birds. Tough scenting and heavy cover is where the hunted dog shines. Experience tracking wild birds is of immeasuarable value. A puppy can find birds and look good in an upwind in light cover on planted pen raised birds. In fact some hot pups fresh from the puppy stake can win all age trials in an upwind under the right conditions. That's why as a judge I put significant weight on conditions and whether the dog ran upwind or downwind. All things being equal the dog that is challenged by a downwind course and succeeds will get the nod. As a contestant I love to run the end of an upwind/downwind course and get one bird of each. That weighs heavily on a competent judges mind for better or worse.
> 
> I applaud your effort to run on consecutive days but it takes a dog with a select temperament to "keep it between the ditches" for three days in a row. I believe that each dog only has so many trials in them before they become "trial wise" and problems creep in. I'm not aware of many who get better on the 3rd day than they were on the first.
> 
> Gavan is a very intense dog and I am resigned to not running him on consecutive weekends let alone days. The more "drive" the dog has the harder it is to keep them steady, responding to the whistle, and in gun range in a trial scenario. You will get surprised each time you run. It's like wow where did that come from. You'll see all kinds of reactions you'll never see while hunting or training
> 
> The adrenaline rush you get from trialing is addictive but IMHO it's only a part of what makes an all around spaniel. A dog that only succeeds in a trial environment is of limited value to me and in some cases I question it's value as a breeding specimen.
> 
> I'll be hunting in Mackinac county Sat, Sun, and Monday. My twosome has swelled to a threesome. Not my idea but you know how it goes. Hope to see you if possible.


Thanks Gavan. I agree with much of what you say, but we use quite a few pheasants in training and get lots of tracking under poor scenting conditions and I think that has much to do with Smoke's runs this weekend, along with the "wall of reed canary grass" in my back yard, this trial had lots of cover changes from knee high to head high to mowed paths for the gunners and gallery. Lots of dog struggled with those changes, Smoke thrived and loved them. Saying that I do think because we hunt so much he is used to having to live with my standards every day and 3 days of trials didn't cause him much trouble. In fact he was running his best patterns on Sunday and is about to get out on grouse.

You don't want to Judge this weekend eh??? We have a little problem with one of our Judges from Colorado who is in some difficulty... just kidding. With our entries it looks like I will be around Monday maybe we can hook up for a hunt or 2 before you leave.


----------



## Gavan

You still have my cell number?


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> You still have my cell number?


Yup got it. If your having any trouble finding birds give me a call Saturday evening. Still looking for a judge!!!


----------



## Gavan

it will be for directions to a honey hole, not to judge a trial. I'm judging two too many this fall as it is.


----------



## michgundog

Steve do you have the results from the cocker trial?? 


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----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> Steve do you have the results from the cocker trial??
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Friday's Open
1st Bueller/Rumi
2nd Clyde/Lisa Brown/Ness
3rd Liz/Schuster
4th Bonnie/Ness/Lisa Brown 
Guns---Liz

Saturday's open
1st Darcy/Walt Leytham
2nd Mitts/Ness
3rd Duke/Wiley (owned by Hudson Nichols)
4th Gillie/ AR Ginn
Guns---Lizzy/ Joannides

I don't have Sunday's results, but your training partner was in the 3rd with Champ, but had some tough competition.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Friday's Open
> 1st Bueller/Rumi
> 2nd Clyde/Lisa Brown/Ness
> 3rd Liz/Schuster
> 4th Bonnie/Ness/Lisa Brown
> Guns---Liz
> 
> Saturday's open
> 1st Darcy/Walt Leytham
> 2nd Mitts/Ness
> 3rd Duke/Wiley (owned by Hudson Nichols)
> 4th Gillie/ AR Ginn
> Guns---Lizzy/ Joannides
> 
> I don't have Sunday's results, but your training partner was in the 3rd with Champ, but had some tough competition.


Thank you! Glad to see Dale was in there, that Champ is one hell of a dog! Congratulations to you and smoke. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> Thank you! Glad to see Dale was in there, that Champ is one hell of a dog! Congratulations to you and smoke.
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Sunday-9/15 Amateur
Judges- George Kittle & Mike Ludwig
1st-Champ-Dale Young
2nd-Nellie-Lisa Brown
3rd-Cairo-Deb Strohl
4th-Suzy-R Schroeder
Guns Award-Champ-Dale Young

Champ did it on Sunday! Pete Z gave Dale some handling tips before the 3rd, must have helped! He beat the 2010 NFC and the 2012 NFC and an FC dog. WAY TO GO DALE and CHAMP!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Friday's Open
> 1st Bueller/Rumi
> 2nd Clyde/Lisa Brown/Ness
> 3rd Liz/Schuster
> 4th Bonnie/Ness/Lisa Brown
> Guns---Liz
> 
> Saturday's open
> 1st Darcy/Walt Leytham
> 2nd Mitts/Ness
> 3rd Duke/Wiley (owned by Hudson Nichols)
> 4th Gillie/ AR Ginn
> Guns---Lizzy/ Joannides
> 
> I don't have Sunday's results, but your training partner was in the 3rd with Champ, but had some tough competition.


Thanks Steve.

This gives a first look at dogs performing in top form going into the Nat CH out in North Dakota??

And Ollie Ginn all the way from Texas?? Big draw!!

NB

PS Did Ernie have anything good going?


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Dauber,

Have to thank you again for your PDF on Grouse hunting. I never would have found all those maps at the DNR site on my own. I have just about all of the northern lower and some of the UP over lay maps loaded into my GPS and on my Google earth. I know the data is a few years old in some cases but it sure makes it nice to have color coded tree data in my GPS when I am in the woods. I have been surprised how accurate the marked areas are. It has defiantly put more birds up for us and less unproductive ground covered. Some very productive little pockets that would have been skipped with out seeing them on the GPS.

All I do is download the PDF maps then use the snapshot feature in adobe to copy just the map area
past the image into paint
save the image as a JPG file
import the image into Google earth as an overlay
Adjust the image size matching up the roads from the over lay image and the Google map
set the transparency of the overlay image
then save the over lay as a kmz file 
copy the KMZ file to into the Garmin's CustomMaps folder
then set the overlays as active in the GPS unit
then I have a color map showing tree data.


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Thanks Steve.
> 
> This gives a first look at dogs performing in top form going into the Nat CH out in North Dakota??
> 
> And Ollie Ginn all the way from Texas?? Big draw!!
> 
> NB
> 
> PS Did Ernie have anything good going?


Ernie wasn't there this year. AR made the trip himself, Ollie is having some health issue's and AR wasn't himself and he was heading home as soon as the 3rd was over yesterday. Walt Leytham came in from Virginia too. 

Yes there were a number of people there to compete at a high level before the Nationals. I blew Smoke's change to qualify Friday, so now we are going to work the Nationals, Lisa Brown snagged us for a couple of jobs...guess we should have kept GDG shagging:lol:.


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Dauber,
> 
> Have to thank you again for your PDF on Grouse hunting. I never would have found all those maps at the DNR site on my own. I have just about all of the northern lower and some of the UP over lay maps loaded into my GPS and on my Google earth. I know the data is a few years old in some cases but it sure makes it nice to have color coded tree data in my GPS when I am in the woods. I have been surprised how accurate the marked areas are. It has defiantly put more birds up for us and less unproductive ground covered. Some very productive little pockets that would have been skipped with out seeing them on the GPS.
> 
> All I do is download the PDF maps then use the snapshot feature in adobe to copy just the map area
> past the image into paint
> save the image as a JPG file
> import the image into Google earth as an overlay
> Adjust the image size matching up the roads from the over lay image and the Google map
> set the transparency of the overlay image
> then save the over lay as a kmz file
> copy the KMZ file to into the Garmin's CustomMaps folder
> then set the overlays as active in the GPS unit
> then I have a color map showing tree data.


Very cool IWB! That is a good idea. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Ernie wasn't there this year. AR made the trip himself, Ollie is having some health issue's and AR wasn't himself and he was heading home as soon as the 3rd was over yesterday. Walt Leytham came in from Virginia too.
> 
> Yes there were a number of people there to compete at a high level before the Nationals. I blew Smoke's change to qualify Friday, so now we are going to work the Nationals, Lisa Brown snagged us for a couple of jobs...guess we should have kept *GDG shagging:lol:.*


*
*
Now Now shagging for one blue-roan Cocker doesn't make me Nationals Shagging material. I really need more OGT to work at that level.:lol:


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Sunday-9/15 Amateur
> Judges- George Kittle & Mike Ludwig
> 1st-Champ-Dale Young
> 2nd-Nellie-Lisa Brown
> 3rd-Cairo-Deb Strohl
> 4th-Suzy-R Schroeder
> Guns Award-Champ-Dale Young
> 
> Champ did it on Sunday! Pete Z gave Dale some handling tips before the 3rd, must have helped! He beat the 2010 NFC and the 2012 NFC and an FC dog. WAY TO GO DALE and CHAMP!


AWESOME!! Congratulations to Dale and Champ!! 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Sunday-9/15 Amateur
> Judges- George Kittle & Mike Ludwig
> *1st-Champ-Dale Young*
> 2nd-Nellie-Lisa Brown
> 3rd-Cairo-Deb Strohl
> 4th-Suzy-R Schroeder
> Guns Award-Champ-Dale Young
> 
> Champ did it on Sunday! Pete Z gave Dale some handling tips before the 3rd, must have helped! He beat the 2010 NFC and the 2012 NFC and an FC dog. WAY TO GO DALE and CHAMP!


Good to see a Michigander have a good day! That's all right!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Yes there were a number of people there to compete at a high level before the Nationals. I blew Smoke's change to qualify Friday, so now we are going to work the Nationals, Lisa Brown snagged us for a couple of jobs...guess we should have kept GDG shagging:lol:.


Hey now, youse' guys have "been there and done that" at the Cocker Nationals before. And you'll have the best seats in the house, besides the judges, so we will need a report, and analysis, when the smoke clears.

Have fun in Mendoken. Don't blink!

NB


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Pups had a good day out today. I have some video of them flushing a little doodle that Brandy originally flushed. It was a small bird and didn't fly very far. It was close to the truck so I was able to bring the pups out and let them find it. They never realized it flushed but they sure enjoyed the scent. If I can get my trimmer program to work I will upload a clip. Brandy put up 3 grouse and 4 doodles.

http://s399.photobucket.com/user/Cherry_pics/media/GOPR0015_0002.mp4.html


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Pups had a good day out today. I have some video of them flushing a little doodle that Brandy originally flushed. It was a small bird and didn't fly very far. It was close to the truck so I was able to bring the pups out and let them find it. They never realized it flushed but they sure enjoyed the scent. If I can get my trimmer program to work I will upload a clip. Brandy put up 3 grouse and 4 doodles.
> 
> http://s399.photobucket.com/user/Cherry_pics/media/GOPR0015_0002.mp4.html


Nice weather, trimmer must have been working. Pups growing that's for sure.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

unfortunately that video did not show the bird flush, it was at the point when I lifted my head but it trimmed it off, then I couldn't get the program working again. We managed to get back out today, I let Brandy out of the truck while I was getting my stuff ready. I heard some screaming sounds called for her she came back with this. Second Rabbit she has caught this year. bit small but I won't waste it. We managed to get into a lot of birds today. She put up 15 birds in less than two hours. Two family groups and two single bird flushes. I should have had 4 birds instead of two, poor shooting and was trying to load a single shell after I shot one bird. I should have known better to be loading at that moment.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> unfortunately that video did not show the bird flush, it was at the point when I lifted my head but it trimmed it off, then I couldn't get the program working again. We managed to get back out today, I let Brandy out of the truck while I was getting my stuff ready. I heard some screaming sounds called for her she came back with this. Second Rabbit she has caught this year. bit small but I won't waste it. We managed to get into a lot of birds today. She put up 15 birds in less than two hours. Two family groups and two single bird flushes. I should have had 4 birds instead of two, poor shooting and was trying to load a single shell after I shot one bird. I should have known better to be loading at that moment.


 
That's great Doug! A little fur mixed in with the feathers. And a good time was had by all!


----------



## Rysalka

Great job Brandy, Punk is mistified by rabbits, he tries his best but just can't seem to figure them out.....so far the yard rabbits are 10 and 0 againist him
..........he will get one sooner or later

He has though caught 3 mourning doves at the chicken feeder.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> unfortunately that video did not show the bird flush, it was at the point when I lifted my head but it trimmed it off, then I couldn't get the program working again. We managed to get back out today, I let Brandy out of the truck while I was getting my stuff ready. I heard some screaming sounds called for her she came back with this. Second Rabbit she has caught this year. bit small but I won't waste it. We managed to get into a lot of birds today. She put up 15 birds in less than two hours. Two family groups and two single bird flushes. I should have had 4 birds instead of two, poor shooting and was trying to load a single shell after I shot one bird. I should have known better to be loading at that moment.


Good girl, Brandy! Nice picture too (as usual).


----------



## uppower

Can't seem to get Hank consistently hunting the woods. He would rather walk the roads with me....any ideas?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Steelheadfred

uppower said:


> Can't seem to get Hank consistently hunting the woods. He would rather walk the roads with me....any ideas?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yeah, teach the "in" or "look in" command, using bumpers or pigeons, or road birds you see while driving, give him a hand signal and say "in" when he goes in, make sure he finds a bird, needs to learn birds live in the woods not on trails. Once he has some successes, he won't want to come out.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## gundogguy

uppower said:


> Is that in regards to Hank gundoggy? If so If you guys think I just need to hit the woods with him I will.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


No... not at all that is a 3yr old cocker that I have coached to the max. He has more training than 3 dogs. He is just a good example of a dog that is well prepare for the battles in the field.
You should just keep on having fun with your guy!

Here is another 3yr old English Cocker doing his job.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Al-8yJ1y_c"]Crush 09 21 13 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## I'm with Brandy

I am under the belief that even if the dog does good things naturally I want the ability to make them do it when and where I say. So while a dog may have a natural quarter I am going to teach the dog do it on command. It does not mean that I won't let the dog target hunt but when I want the dog to check out one of my targets I don't want to have an argument about it.

The dog may get tired after several hours of hunting and may get lazy and run the road, again another time the ability to cast your dog back into the cover is needed.

Most importantly with a younger dog you need to walk in the cover with the dog. This will help reinforce to dog that you think the cover is important. 

I would rather walk in thick cover with a young dog and miss birds that have the dog pickup a bad habit of running the road.

Eventually the dog will learn where to find birds and hunt accordingly but for now don't let the pup get bad habits.


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## yooperguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I am under the belief that even if the dog does good things naturally I want the ability to make them do it when and where I say. So while a dog may have a natural quarter I am going to teach the dog do it on command. It does not mean that I won't let the dog target hunt but when I want the dog to check out one of my targets I don't want to have an argument about it.
> 
> The dog may get tired after several hours of hunting and may get lazy and run the road, again another time the ability to cast your dog back into the cover is needed.
> 
> Most importantly with a younger dog you need to walk in the cover with the dog. This will help reinforce to dog that you think the cover is important.
> 
> I would rather walk in thick cover with a young dog and miss birds that have the dog pickup a bad habit of running the road.
> 
> Eventually the dog will learn where to find birds and hunt accordingly but for now don't let the pup get bad habits.


I am following my pup this year right through the cover. Its tuff walking and I might not get a clean shot. But for this year the benefits are that she'll learn where the birds are.


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## Hunting with Drake

yooperguy2003 said:


> I am following my pup this year right through the cover. Its tuff walking and I might not get a clean shot. But for this year the benefits are that she'll learn where the birds are.


Drake and I are doing the same thing. We just need a few days out when it isn't raining. Although today was good...minus the porcupine. We've been taking things slow and fun . Today was a good dry day but still introducing my wife to the sport of upland hunting. So there was a lot of questions to answer and gun safety and of course keeping Drake under control. All in all a great day with no birds.


----------



## yooperguy

Just got back from attending my first spaniel field trial. The TVESSC put on an English Springer Spaniel field trial at Rapid River yesterday and today was a really educational experience and a pretty good time too. 

We met JAM and Stormy and I even landed a gig shagging behind the judge for a front row view of the action. Of course my daughter was along for the fun and the adventure. On the way back to camp, I asked her if she was going to be a handler some day. She said "I already am Dad.". Heh, heh, heh... Silly me. . 

Belle was in her glory meeting all the other ESS's and their owners and handlers. 

We camped in the boondocks with team dauber. The cockers and Belle flushed a woodcock on a walk around camp last evening. The harvest moon was incredible. 

I wish I could give you a report on who placed but it was all too new for me to be able to do that. I'm sure dauber and JAM will post results soon. Thanks JAM and dauber for showing us the ropes!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Hunting with Drake said:


> Drake and I are doing the same thing. We just need a few days out when it isn't raining. Although today was good...minus the porcupine. We've been taking things slow and fun . Today was a good dry day but still introducing my wife to the sport of upland hunting. So there was a lot of questions to answer and gun safety and of course keeping Drake under control. All in all a great day with no birds.


I have taught Bandy to sit when she finds a porcupine. So far I have found her twice with a porcupine and she is just sitting and looking at it. Far enough away to got get hurt.


----------



## Hunting with Drake

I'm with Brandy said:


> I have taught Bandy to sit when she finds a porcupine. So far I have found her twice with a porcupine and she is just sitting and looking at it. Far enough away to got get hurt.


I was lucky I seen the porky before drake did, but obedience payed off. I gave him the sit and stay command while I took care of the porky. So no quills  for the little dog. Not to bad I thought for a 9 month old pup. He gets a bit excited when I shoot( he thinks he has to go look for a bird) so he was a little unsteady but he did ok and only went a few feet before he started listening again and heeled.


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## gundogguy

yooperguy2003 said:


> Just got back from attending my first spaniel field trial. The TVESSC put on an English Springer Spaniel field trial at Rapid River yesterday and today was a really educational experience and a pretty good time too.
> 
> We met JAM and Stormy and I even landed a gig shagging behind the judge for a front row view of the action. Of course my daughter was along for the fun and the adventure. On the way back to camp, I asked her if she was going to be a handler some day. She said "I already am Dad.". Heh, heh, heh... Silly me. .
> 
> Belle was in her glory meeting all the other ESS's and their owners and handlers.
> 
> We camped in the boondocks with team dauber. The cockers and Belle flushed a woodcock on a walk around camp last evening. The harvest moon was incredible.
> 
> I wish I could give you a report on who placed but it was all too new for me to be able to do that. I'm sure dauber and JAM will post results soon. *Thanks JAM and dauber for showing us the ropes*!


 Things must be tougher than I thought in U.P.
When a newbie comes to the GLESSFTA trials(Oct 5+6) We show 'em the ropes..then we use the ropes on them. We spare no expense tying 'em up:lol:
Glad you and daughter got to see how the other half lives! Run like heck from that culture and donot look back!:lol:

I know in this video clip yous cannot see the bird, or maybe just barely but I was just on fire stoneing them at around 70 yrds. Big retrieves for the little Zeta girl!


----------



## michgundog

yooperguy2003 said:


> Just got back from attending my first spaniel field trial. The TVESSC put on an English Springer Spaniel field trial at Rapid River yesterday and today was a really educational experience and a pretty good time too.
> 
> We met JAM and Stormy and I even landed a gig shagging behind the judge for a front row view of the action. Of course my daughter was along for the fun and the adventure. On the way back to camp, I asked her if she was going to be a handler some day. She said "I already am Dad.". Heh, heh, heh... Silly me. .
> 
> Belle was in her glory meeting all the other ESS's and their owners and handlers.
> 
> We camped in the boondocks with team dauber. The cockers and Belle flushed a woodcock on a walk around camp last evening. The harvest moon was incredible.
> 
> I wish I could give you a report on who placed but it was all too new for me to be able to do that. I'm sure dauber and JAM will post results soon. Thanks JAM and dauber for showing us the ropes!


Now your hooked, right?? 

Anyone else interested in seeing a springer trial SMSSTC will have their trial this weekend. Spectators are welcomed, but please bring hunters orange. See link below for details:

http://smsstc.org/fieldtrial/




Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

We enjoyed meeting Yooperguy, "Yoopergirl", and Belle. Glad you had a chance to join us at the trial and had a good time camping with Team Dauber.

Stormy passed a bird in the 2nd Series of the trial so we were out. Still had a good time and a good run up to that little booboo. 

Here's the "unofficial" (not reported to the AKC yet) list of placements for Tilden Valley ESS Club's 2013 Field Trial - Sept. 21 & 22, 2013.

OPEN ALL-AGE STAKE
1st - Upland Briars Mistletoe "Holly" - H: Jason Givens
2nd - Pinecroft Taylor's Big Boy "XL" - H: Cathy Lewis
3rd - Lighthouse Learning To Fly "Seamus" - H: Jason Givens
4th - AFC Melchris Advocate "Cate" - H: Don Brunn

AMATEUR ALL-AGE STAKE
1st - Melchris Whistlestop "Ellie" - H: Rick Schneider
2nd - Grouse Moor Hazel "Hazel" - H: Lea Ames
3rd - Lower Creek Junior "Junior" - H: Joe Barnett
4th - Warrener's Short-eared Owl "Clancy" - H: Bob Merrill

PUPPY STAKE
1st - Grouse Ridge Sonador "Sonya" - H: Michael Brittnacher
2nd - Rock River Treba's Marvelous McMurphy "Murphy" - H: Jeff Schwartz
3rd - Lighthouse Wind Power "Dutch" - H: Bob Merrill
4th - Treba's M&M Swirl "Swirl" - H: Jeff Schwartz

CONGRATS!


----------



## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> Now your hooked, right??
> 
> Anyone else interested in seeing a springer trial SMSSTC will have their trial this weekend. Spectators are welcomed, but please bring hunters orange. See link below for details:
> 
> http://smsstc.org/fieldtrial/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yes - yes I am. I don't know that I'll ever have a dog in a stake but I will certainly be attending other trials in the future. I like to get involved and help out and will look to do more of that too. I know... I know... Hal told me to turn and run. 

I got a lot of great advice, met a lot of nice folks and had a lot of fun. Of course everyone knew that my pup is purely bench bred, but had some positive comments on her stance, her gait, and her lines and markings. Many also commented that Belle is "way too calm to be a Springer!" Yes - relatively speaking - she is pretty calm. But you should see her with her "go fast buddy" Zac! She can get going pretty good.:yikes: Maybe a hunt test is in our future. That would be fun I think.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> We enjoyed meeting Yooperguy, "Yoopergirl", and Belle. Glad you had a chance to join us at the trial and had a good time camping with Team Dauber.
> 
> Stormy passed a bird in the 2nd Series of the trial so we were out. Still had a good time and a good run up to that little booboo.
> 
> Here's the "unofficial" (not reported to the AKC yet) list of placements for Tilden Valley ESS Club's 2013 Field Trial - Sept. 21 & 22, 2013.
> 
> OPEN ALL-AGE STAKE
> 1st - Upland Briars Mistletoe "Holly" - H: Jason Givens
> 2nd - Pinecroft Taylor's Big Boy "XL" - H: Cathy Lewis
> 3rd - Lighthouse Learning To Fly "Seamus" - H: Jason Givens
> 4th - AFC Melchris Advocate "Cate" - H: Don Brunn
> 
> AMATEUR ALL-AGE STAKE
> 1st - Melchris Whistlestop "Ellie" - H: Rick Schneider
> 2nd - Grouse Moor Hazel "Hazel" - H: Lea Ames
> 3rd - Lower Creek Junior "Junior" - H: Joe Barnett
> 4th - Warrener's Short-eared Owl "Clancy" - H: Bob Merrill
> 
> PUPPY STAKE
> 1st - Grouse Ridge Sonador "Sonya" - H: Michael Brittnacher
> 2nd - Rock River Treba's Marvelous McMurphy "Murphy" - H: Jeff Schwartz
> 3rd - Lighthouse Wind Power "Dutch" - H: Bob Merrill
> 4th - Treba's M&M Swirl "Swirl" - H: Jeff Schwartz
> 
> CONGRATS!


Very good! Thanks Jam Old guys and new guys in that report Good to see!


----------



## JTC

OK Gang, I have a friend that is looking for a breeder of good hunting ESS. Can I get some recommendations for breeders in Michigan.

Thanks
Jim


----------



## gundogguy

JTC said:


> OK Gang, I have a friend that is looking for a breeder of good hunting ESS. Can I get some recommendations for breeders in Michigan.
> 
> Thanks
> Jim


Springer pups in the MS classifieds. Paperwork is sound. I have seen the stud handle training birds. On the two occasions the stud was consistent. I know nothing about the Dam.

This link is to a good read. http://totallygundogs.com/the-trouble-with-springers-part-one/

Loaded with some great background information for both Buyer and Seller


----------



## JTC

Ya know, after reading that they might want a house dog that might want to hunt a little. Where would they go for that?

Jim


----------



## gundogguy

JTC said:


> Ya know, after reading that they might want a house dog that might want to hunt a little. Where would they go for that?
> 
> Jim


ESS rescue 

http://springerrescue.org/dogdocs/regions/available.php?reg=MW

Midwest link page.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> We enjoyed meeting Yooperguy, "Yoopergirl", and Belle. Glad you had a chance to join us at the trial and had a good time camping with Team Dauber.
> 
> Stormy passed a bird in the 2nd Series of the trial so we were out. Still had a good time and a good run up to that little booboo.
> 
> Here's the "unofficial" (not reported to the AKC yet) list of placements for Tilden Valley ESS Club's 2013 Field Trial - Sept. 21 & 22, 2013.
> 
> OPEN ALL-AGE STAKE
> 1st - Upland Briars Mistletoe "Holly" - H: Jason Givens
> 2nd - Pinecroft Taylor's Big Boy "XL" - H: Cathy Lewis
> 3rd - Lighthouse Learning To Fly "Seamus" - H: Jason Givens
> 4th - AFC Melchris Advocate "Cate" - H: Don Brunn
> 
> AMATEUR ALL-AGE STAKE
> 1st - Melchris Whistlestop "Ellie" - H: Rick Schneider
> 2nd - Grouse Moor Hazel "Hazel" - H: Lea Ames
> 3rd - Lower Creek Junior "Junior" - H: Joe Barnett
> 4th - Warrener's Short-eared Owl "Clancy" - H: Bob Merrill
> 
> PUPPY STAKE
> 1st - Grouse Ridge Sonador "Sonya" - H: Michael Brittnacher
> 2nd - Rock River Treba's Marvelous McMurphy "Murphy" - H: Jeff Schwartz
> 3rd - Lighthouse Wind Power "Dutch" - H: Bob Merrill
> 4th - Treba's M&M Swirl "Swirl" - H: Jeff Schwartz
> 
> CONGRATS!


We made it back from the Hiawatha boonies. Reduced JAM's bird numbers a might and had fun showing a fellow fbecs fella and an artist (the guy who painted last year's cocker NFC portrait) how to find bird covers. What a couple of characters:yikes: .

JAM and our leader Bob did a bang up job pulling off our first trial without longtime organizers Archie and Carol. JAM had her 5 page check list and kept us all in line. It was very nice seeing Yooperguy and his daughter there enjoying the trial and camping nearby.

Now to get unpacked, then repacked and head somewhere for some more hunting adventures!


----------



## Blanco

Any guys here running in the trial this weekend?
My dog Gator is running in the puppy stakes.

Go Gatorman!

His Pic from the NY trial.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Blanco said:


> Any guys here running in the trial this weekend?
> My dog Gator is running in the puppy stakes.
> 
> Go Gatorman!
> 
> His Pic from the NY trial.


Good Luck, Gator. He's a good looking boy.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

Blanco said:


> *Any guys here running in the trial this weekend?*
> My dog Gator is running in the puppy stakes.
> 
> Go Gatorman!
> 
> His Pic from the NY trial.


Blanco, welcome to the forum! Congrats on your puppie placement.
My weekend handler will have a pup in the SMSSTC puppie stake.
Zeta (NFC Cliff X Buccleugh Thistle)

Nancy and Zeta after 2nd series training run Sunday. 




 
Safe travels to Michigan for the SMSSTC!


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## michgundog

Blanco said:


> Any guys here running in the trial this weekend?
> My dog Gator is running in the puppy stakes.
> 
> Go Gatorman!
> 
> His Pic from the NY trial.



Good luck to you and Gator. I'll be there, with a friends puppy. Going to be a tough field with 10 puppies! 


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## dauber

Good luck to the puppies this weekend at SMSSTC! Hope they all make the judges have to work!


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## Gavan

Good luck to all. Go to the trials and ask questions and observe. Process the information. Find people who know more than you to train with and work hard at making you and your dog better. Compete with your dog. KEEP AN OPEN MIND but prove or disprove what you hear with your own dog. Be wary of gross generalizations that you will hear. 

Your ultimate goal will be a companion spaniel that can succeed as a hunter and a competition animal that can compete at the highest levels.
The journey is a lot of work and fun and will be very rewarding. Bon voyage...


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Blanco, welcome to the forum! Congrats on your puppie placement.
> My weekend handler will have a pup in the SMSSTC puppie stake.
> Zeta (NFC Cliff X Buccleugh Thistle)
> 
> Nancy and Zeta after 2nd series training run Sunday.
> Zeta and Nancy - YouTube
> 
> Safe travels to Michigan for the SMSSTC!


Good luck to Nancy and Zeta!! 


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## JAM

Good luck, trialers! Looking forward to the reports.


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## Blanco

I won't actually be there :sad:
Brent LeMaster will be handling him for me.
It's a shame too, watching the pups is always exciting. I actually make it a point to go see them run. They have so much enthusiasm and watching them start to make it all work is all very satisfying, even someone elses dogs.
About 2 years ago I saw a puppy stakes in Texas that had some of the best dog work I had ever seen. The pups looked better than the older dogs.


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## Blanco

By the way...
I have a favor to ask of anyone who might be attending. If you are willing, please take some pictures of my dog when he runs.
Blanco's Instigator
I think he is about #8 or #9 on the lineup.
You can't miss him, as he looks like he needs a saddle.
I would be very appreciative and can supply trade bait to boot!


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## michgundog

Blanco said:


> By the way...
> I have a favor to ask of anyone who might be attending. If you are willing please take some pictures of my dog when he runs.
> Blanco's Instigator
> I think he is about #8 or #9 on the lineup.
> You can't miss him, as he looks like he needs a saddle.
> I would be very appreciative and can supply trade bait to boot!


Brent is a good handler. For some reason I can't post pics on MS I think I ran out of memory????? If you want to PM me your email address I can email you pictures. 


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Good luck to all. Go to the trials and ask questions and observe. Process the information. Find people who know more than you to train with and work hard at making you and your dog better. Compete with your dog. KEEP AN OPEN MIND but prove or disprove what you hear with your own dog. Be wary of gross generalizations that you will hear.
> 
> Your ultimate goal will be a companion spaniel that can succeed as a hunter and a competition animal that can compete at the highest levels.
> The journey is a lot of work and fun and will be very rewarding. Bon voyage...


Great advice Gavan! It's shame very few will pay any attention to it.
It is so much more fun to listen to the breeder spin and trialers yarns.

Keep an open mind is correct. The only stakes that mean any thing at all are the Open & Amateur, those are one where the Championship points awarded. The puppy stake is a great fund raiser for the club and competing pros. I have always liken it to a shoe sale at the mall. "Oh aren't they pretty and I got such a good deal!!!:lol:.

I cannot tell you how many Puppy stake placements we have made only to end up selling the dog to a meat hunter a year or so later.. Working the stats if you have 10 pups in a stake this year it will be a tough class if 3 of the move to the AA. whether they place or not this year.
Take puppy stakes for they are worth....$35.00-40.00,not much, and then plan on training big and tough over the next year to move up to AA, if you have the dog that can make the grade. Pheasants and conditions change every thing..


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## Blanco

Besides my Springer Addiction, I have additional interests that I allow a bit of time for here and there.
One of which is photography. I especially like catching dogs in motion in the field. 

Here is one of Homeskillet Mike Pollack and his pup Julep



Last years high point puppy Kantagrees Master of Lightning (Zeus)



More to come......


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## michgundog

Blanco said:


> Besides my Springer Addiction, I have additional interests that I allow a bit of time for here and there.
> One of which is photography. I especially like catching dogs in motion in the field.
> 
> Here is one of Homeskillet Mike Pollack and his pup Julep
> 
> 
> 
> Last years high point puppy Kantagrees Master of Lightning (Zeus)
> 
> 
> 
> More to come......


Great pictures, that Julep is a nice pup!! 


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> I cannot tell you how many Puppy stake placements we have made only to end up selling the dog to a meat hunter a year or so later.. Working the stats if you have 10 pups in a stake this year it will be a tough class if 3 of the move to the AA. whether they place or not this year.
> Take puppy stakes for they are worth....$35.00-40.00,not much, and then plan on training big and tough over the next year to move up to AA, if you have the dog that can make the grade. Pheasants and conditions change every thing..


Hal,

If memory serves that number was about the same for pointy dog stakes, of any breed , both AKC and FDSB. The number of dogs that win as pups and that go on to win All Age stakes is rather small, for a whole variety of reasons. 

One is, that they are judged primarily on "run" and very little else. I know its different with Spaniels.

NB


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Hal,
> 
> If memory serves that number was about the same for pointy dog stakes, of any breed , both AKC and FDSB. The number of dogs that win as pups and that go on to win All Age stakes is rather small, for a whole variety of reasons.
> 
> One is, that they are judged primarily on "run" and very little else. I know its different with Spaniels.
> 
> NB


Natty Bumpo , my friend your memory is still working well.
Yes, and there are differences as to how the various breeds are judged.
Puppy stakes are pretty much "Toddlers and Tiara's" type of event. 
But life changes big time when a steady diet of pheasant and brace mates come into play, and one has to live with the center line, (ask Dauber and Gavan about that). Not to mention can the dogs develop the "temper" to handle runners and not come unglued. Weekend after weekend. Yikes I think it was Gavan that his strategy with his dog was not run any more than he had to complete his title.
Oh sure puppy stakes give the folks a small view of the upcoming talent, but a very small view, maybe just a slice.

_Who hear on the forum remember the days of concurrent trials??_ Those were the days when you really had to manage your dog's bird numbers.


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## dauber

Gavan said:


> Good luck to all. Go to the trials and ask questions and observe. Process the information. Find people who know more than you to train with and work hard at making you and your dog better. Compete with your dog. KEEP AN OPEN MIND but prove or disprove what you hear with your own dog. Be wary of gross generalizations that you will hear.
> 
> Your ultimate goal will be a companion spaniel that can succeed as a hunter and a competition animal that can compete at the highest levels.
> The journey is a lot of work and fun and will be very rewarding. Bon voyage...


Excellent advice Gavan. Karen and I have been attending at least one weekend of trials a year for the last 10 years or so. Add to that we work at them either planting, shagging, schlepping, hauling bird crates, or whatever needs to be done. That way we try to earn our help in selecting a pup or started dog. These are the dogs that are the foundation of their breed and the people that are on the front lines of developing them.


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## Blanco

While I will agree that a puppy stakes is not a field trial, not even close. I have however noticed that the quality of pups has increased dramatically over the past 5 years or so. The level a pup needs to be to place is far away from what it used to be. Many of the pups I see are very advanced. You better come with your A game if you want to win.


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## uppower

So I posted about Hank not wanting to leave the trails. Today after work I plowed through some thick aspens with him. When I'm with him he will run around in the cover. After about ten minutes my usually calm dog went nuts nothing like when he had chukar. He starting whining and yelping and running circles and shortly a grouse flushed. For the rest of the night his while butt wagged and I walked the trail and he busted brush! He did do his yelping act once more but I never heard the flush. 


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## yooperguy

uppower said:


> So I posted about Hank not wanting to leave the trails. Today after work I plowed through some thick aspens with him. When I'm with him he will run around in the cover. After about ten minutes my usually calm dog went nuts nothing like when he had chukar. He starting whining and yelping and running circles and shortly a grouse flushed. For the rest of the night his while butt wagged and I walked the trail and he busted brush! He did do his yelping act once more but I never heard the flush.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good boy Hank! He's learning where the birds are.


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## Gavan

I am looking for natural ability more than training. I have made some pros unhappy when I scored dogs that hunted higher than their windshield wiper pigeon finders. To Hal's point quartering a puppy through the course until they "find" a pigeon or chukar is a far cry from tracking and producing pheasants. I want to see natural ability and frankly some pros put so much control on the dog they won't even break pattern to find a bird. Not what I want to see, even from a puppy.


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Excellent advice Gavan. Karen and I have been attending at least one weekend of trials a year for the last 10 years or so. Add to that we work at them either planting, shagging, schlepping, hauling bird crates, or whatever needs to be done. That way we try to earn our help in selecting a pup or started dog. These are the dogs that are the foundation of their breed and the people that are on the front lines of developing them.


This is the path that I see myself following. I didn't know what those jobs were that needed being done. Now I do and I will do them as I get to know more people and more dogs each year. Who knows, maybe I'll get a field bred dog and know what to do with it someday.


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## METRO1

Blanco i believe ur exactly right,i was watching open and am,, cocker tials at andys a few weeks ago and the puppies ran better and marked there birds better than some open and am...dogs, and those comments were made by others also.some open and am,,,dogs weren t even sent on retrieves on birds that were smoked. But a bunch of stuff happened at trial i or others didn t understand,and those are aa.GOOD LUCK WITH UR PUP.


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## gundogguy

sometimes you just have to stop and smell the sunshine!


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## Blanco

What Spaniels should be doing in a trial, is at best a can of worms. I guess that's ok if your fishing,
But we're talkin dogs, and there is no easy answer. Because trials are judged, and judges have their own set of opinions and ideas.
I have attended quite a few trials and I usually volunteer to shag so that I can observe the dogs and handlers up close, and here is my simple observation. The majority of winners of field trials almost always have this in common. Honestly you have to throw most of your logic and understanding out the window. The dog obviously can't have any infractions such as passing birds or being out of control, that's a given. 
Making the game look easy is the key. Some dogs are just better at their job and it almost always shows.
There is one dog and owner I have watched very closely, mostly because they are usually very successful at winning. The one universal observation I took away was that their performance is almost effortless.
The handlers only real job was to send the dog and take the bird. Very little whistle if any.
I realize that may be a bit simplistic and I know there is much more to the game. That's my $.02
That brings us full circle back to puppy stakes and why I enjoy them so much. Most of the dogs haven't been trained into submission yet. It's just raw talent. They have the fire and vigor of youth, yet they are still goofy youngsters.


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## Blanco

This is my female from several years ago. Great at winning puppy stakes, not so great at field trials.


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## Gavan

for some grouse and woodcock hunting. Too many leaves and no frost to kill the undergrowth but we had a good time and manages to kill some birds. I'll try to attach a couple of pictures.


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## CDN_Cocker

Gavan said:


> for some grouse and woodcock hunting. Too many leaves and no frost to kill the undergrowth but we had a good time and manages to kill some birds. I'll try to attach a couple of pictures.


Awesome pics Gavan! I took the pup out yesterday but we didn't see or hear a single grouse. Hoping I can get him on one this weekend. I haven't done much formal quartering training but his obedience and stop whistle are solid and he'll get into any piece of cover I direct him to so hopefully I can get one so it'll all 'click' for him. 

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## I'm with Brandy

Brandy and I got out again today. We had several Grouse flushes and a couple woodcock. Seems the woodcock flushes are going down at this time. I did not shoot at the woodcock have enough of them in the freezer for now. I did not manage to shoot a bird cover is still very heavy. I think Brandy was tired of me not shooting birds so she decided to catch this one today.








Good side it doesn't have any shot in it. I thought I caught the action on the gopro but the memory card was full. To bad it was a very exciting catch. The bird tried to flush from some heavy cover in a 6-8 year old growth. Brandy managed to grab the bird by the tail which resulted in most of the tail feathers coming out. Then there was a short chase the bird tried to fly again and Brandy jumped up and managed to get her paws on the bird before it could clear the cover and bring it back down landing in some heavy cover which seem to explode as they thrashed around. She was pretty full of her self after that. If she knew how to drive the truck she would probably leave me at home.


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## mudbat2128

I'm with Brandy said:


> Brandy and I got out again today. We had several Grouse flushes and a couple woodcock. Seems the woodcock flushes are going down at this time. I did not shoot at the woodcock have enough of them in the freezer for now. I did not manage to shoot a bird cover is still very heavy. I think Brandy was tired of me not shooting birds so she decided to catch this one today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good side it doesn't have any shot in it. I thought I caught the action on the gopro but the memory card was full. To bad it was a very exciting catch. The bird tried to flush from some heavy cover in a 6-8 year old growth. Brandy managed to grab the bird by the tail which resulted in most of the tail feathers coming out. Then there was a short chase the bird tried to fly again and Brandy jumped up and managed to get her paws on the bird before it could clear the cover and bring it back down landing in some heavy cover which seem to explode as they thrashed around. She was pretty full of her self after that. If she knew how to drive the truck she would probably leave me at home.


 I wondered way I didn't here no shooting after we parted ways.


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## CDN_Cocker

I'm with Brandy said:


> Brandy and I got out again today. We had several Grouse flushes and a couple woodcock. Seems the woodcock flushes are going down at this time. I did not shoot at the woodcock have enough of them in the freezer for now. I did not manage to shoot a bird cover is still very heavy. I think Brandy was tired of me not shooting birds so she decided to catch this one today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good side it doesn't have any shot in it. I thought I caught the action on the gopro but the memory card was full. To bad it was a very exciting catch. The bird tried to flush from some heavy cover in a 6-8 year old growth. Brandy managed to grab the bird by the tail which resulted in most of the tail feathers coming out. Then there was a short chase the bird tried to fly again and Brandy jumped up and managed to get her paws on the bird before it could clear the cover and bring it back down landing in some heavy cover which seem to explode as they thrashed around. She was pretty full of her self after that. If she knew how to drive the truck she would probably leave me at home.


Wow I'll have to send Jake down there to learn from Brandy so I won't have to worry about my awful wing shooting lol 

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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Brandy and I got out again today. We had several Grouse flushes and a couple woodcock. Seems the woodcock flushes are going down at this time. I did not shoot at the woodcock have enough of them in the freezer for now. I did not manage to shoot a bird cover is still very heavy. I think Brandy was tired of me not shooting birds so she decided to catch this one today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good side it doesn't have any shot in it. I thought I caught the action on the gopro but the memory card was full. To bad it was a very exciting catch. The bird tried to flush from some heavy cover in a 6-8 year old growth. Brandy managed to grab the bird by the tail which resulted in most of the tail feathers coming out. Then there was a short chase the bird tried to fly again and Brandy jumped up and managed to get her paws on the bird before it could clear the cover and bring it back down landing in some heavy cover which seem to explode as they thrashed around. She was pretty full of her self after that. If she knew how to drive the truck she would probably leave me at home.


Poor bird planting I would say! Yous must have some _wild birds_ up there!:lol:


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## dauber

Good News UPPower with Hank!

Nice job Brandy, she is showing you how it's done

Here's Smoke after I told him "The hunt is over"


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## I'm with Brandy

mudbat2128 said:


> I wondered way I didn't here no shooting after we parted ways.


Was that you running a dog with a beeper or someone else? Thought you were using bells. That bird is one I think we flushed into the woods with your dog. It was in that general area and was the only bird we found there.


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## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Poor bird planting I would say! Yous must have some _wild birds_ up there!:lol:


I think the bird miss took her for a pointing dog and tried to hide in heavy cover. 

The first day out we had some wild flushes but since then most of her flushes have been off the end of her nose.


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## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> Good News UPPower with Hank!
> 
> Nice job Brandy, she is showing you how it's done
> 
> Here's Smoke after I told him "The hunt is over"


 
One of the pups Xander has now realized when we head back to the truck that the fun is over. So he has to wear a 20 foot lead now. When he sees the truck he runs away from me. :lol: Little stinker took me 15 minutes to catch him the first day he figured it out. I had to trick him by putting a dead bird on a lead then real him in like a fish.


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## gundogguy

uppower said:


> So I posted about Hank not wanting to leave the trails. Today after work I plowed through some thick aspens with him. When I'm with him he will run around in the cover. After about ten minutes my usually calm dog went nuts nothing like when he had chukar. He starting whining and yelping and running circles and shortly a grouse flushed. For the rest of the night his while butt wagged and I walked the trail and he busted brush! He did do his yelping act once more but I never heard the flush.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good job that's the boot leather that gets bandie about in some circles,
were you close to a road..Maybe that was the mythical "road bird. 



dauber said:


> Good News UPPower with Hank!
> 
> Nice job Brandy, she is showing you how it's done
> 
> Here's Smoke after I told him "The hunt is over"


Now is that Spaniel dog grinning or growling?


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Now is that Spaniel dog grinning or growling?


It's a "you gotta be kidding me" smile. I had just took this picture an he thought it was just break time, not quitting time.


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## mudbat2128

I'm with Brandy said:


> Was that you running a dog with a beeper or someone else? Thought you were using bells. That bird is one I think we flushed into the woods with your dog. It was in that general area and was the only bird we found there.


Someone else. they were parked at the other end of the berries.


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## I'm with Brandy

mudbat2128 said:


> Someone else. they were parked at the other end of the berries.


I saw a deer in there yesterday that had been shot in the right back knee. Was having a hard time getting around looked like a fresh wound. Just a heads up incase your dog would chase a deer.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> It's a "you gotta be kidding me" smile. I had just took this picture an he thought it was just break time, not quitting time.


Now I recognize that "grin", that is one happy spaniel. 'Got your bird right here Boss"!!


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## uppower

I am beginning to wonder how you guys actually shoot grouse or woodcock! I seem to be good at hearing them flush in the distance.


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## I'm with Brandy

uppower said:


> I am beginning to wonder how you guys actually shoot grouse or woodcock! I seem to be good at hearing them flush in the distance.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


How far out is the dog and how far out in front of the dog are the flushes?

In real heavy cover I like to hunt with the wind to my back this helps the dog to flush the birds back at me. Yes there is a chance that she may run into a bird when she pushes out to back scent but there is a good chance that if I am quite that bird will run or flush my direction. On many occasions have had birds try to run past me with the dog hot on their tail. I have to make less noise in the cover than the dog which can be hard.

If you run with the wind in your face you may have an issue with your dog running to far out when it gets scent. This will cause the bird to flush away from you and out of site in heavy cover.

If the canopy is too heavy I will run parallel to the road a few times to push birds close to the road then finish up by walking the road and have the dog work the edge. 

Typically she will work 20 - 30 yards out from the edge of the road. 

If you think your dog is on a runner and is working away from you don't be afraid to sit the dog until you catch up and then release the dog. If I am close to the end of the cover I might sit her step out to the road and quietly walk to the end of the cover to block and giver her toot toot whistle release to chase the bird.


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## uppower

When he gets on scent he tends to take off after them and flush them to far out. He is just a beginner and so am I. I think he is to far out quite a bit I would guess. The cover is just so thick.


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> How far out is the dog and how far out in front of the dog are the flushes?
> 
> In real heavy cover I like to hunt with the wind to my back this helps the dog to flush the birds back at me. Yes there is a chance that she may run into a bird when she pushes out to back scent but there is a good chance that if I am quite that bird will run or flush my direction. On many occasions have had birds try to run past me with the dog hot on their tail. I have to make less noise in the cover than the dog which can be hard.
> 
> If you run with the wind in your face you may have an issue with your dog running to far out when it gets scent. This will cause the bird to flush away from you and out of site in heavy cover.
> 
> If the canopy is too heavy I will run parallel to the road a few times to push birds close to the road then finish up by walking the road and have the dog work the edge.
> 
> Typically she will work 20 - 30 yards out from the edge of the road.
> 
> If you think your dog is on a runner and is working away from you don't be afraid to sit the dog until you catch up and then release the dog. If I am close to the end of the cover I might sit her step out to the road and quietly walk to the end of the cover to block and giver her toot toot whistle release to chase the bird.


This is good stuff comes from time and boot leather and TRAINING!



uppower said:


> I am beginning to wonder how you guys actually shoot grouse or woodcock! I seem to be good at hearing them flush in the distance.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Your leaves will be down in what 2 weeks or so you'll be able to see then





uppower said:


> When he gets on scent he tends to take off after them and flush them to far out. He is just a beginner and so am I. I think he is to far out quite a bit I would guess. The cover is just so thick.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Time and *training* will help. When you are no longer a beginner!

Enjoy the time spent with your pup, by the way if you have time to hunt you certainly have time to train Make those outings training sessions instead of hunting sessions. Do not worry about being a hunter be a mentor to your dog! It will pay big dividends!


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## Hunting with Drake

Well little dog got his 1st woodcock this morning!! Then by mornings end we got 2 more. We also got 2 grouse but flushed 7. Most of the 7 came from a covey. Still drake did very good.


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## I'm with Brandy

Hunting with Drake said:


> Well little dog got his 1st woodcock this morning!! Then by mornings end we got 2 more. We also got 2 grouse but flushed 7. Most of the 7 came from a covey. Still drake did very good.


Great job! remember like in training when he comes back to you with the bird hang on to him and let him hold the bird for a minute before you take it, unless he is being mouthy with the bird then take it right away. 

That first picture he seems confused about the camera deal. Second one looks like a happy tired pup.


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## Hunting with Drake

Yeah Drake was wore out  2 hours of straight running and he was done. The last woodcock we got I just winged him and it went down in a two track and drake finished him off after about a 10 foot chase. After that I gave him more water and then he laid down for a well deserved brake. So I decided to call it a day. As far as letting him hold onto the birds a little while, he didn't like to hold onto the woodcock but he's starting to chew up the grouse. So I whistle him back before he can chew on them to much. I don't know how to stop that cause I want him to "want" the birds but don't know how to discipline him to stop the chewing. 
Yes he was unsure why he had to sit on the tail gate lol. He kinda gave me a "ok this is weird" look but he sat there just the same. The second picture I think he was just to tired to care 
He broke his bell and I had to get a different one, but has anyone put a beeper collar on a springer? It's seems like it would be the modern bell.


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## CDN_Cocker

Me and Jake went out this afternoon but we didn't flush any grouse or anything else for that matter. Hope I can get him on one soon

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## gundogguy

Hunting with Drake said:


> Yeah Drake was wore out  2 hours of straight running and he was done. The last woodcock we got I just winged him and it went down in a two track and drake finished him off after about a 10 foot chase. After that I gave him more water and then he laid down for a well deserved brake. So I decided to call it a day. As how to discipline hfar as letting him hold onto the birds a *little *while, he didn't* like* to hold onto the woodcock but he's starting to* chew up the grouse. So I whistle him back before he can chew on them to much. I don't know how to stop that cause I want him to "want" the birds but don't know im to stop the chewing. *
> Yes he was unsure why he had to sit on the tail gate lol. He kinda gave me a "ok this is weird" look but he sat there just the same. The second picture I think he was just to tired to care
> He broke his bell and I had to get a different one, but has anyone put a beeper collar on a springer? It's seems like it would be the modern bell.


When it comes the retrieving birds properly what does LIKE have to do with any thing? Most of the stuff we ask are dogs to do are our ideas not theirs. Retrieving a bird of any sort to hand is not the dogs program it is the hunter/handlers idea that's why in many cases we brought the dog with us in the first place

There is tons of information concerning the trained retrieve. And the excited mouth prolly will needs some work in that department.
This is really the wrong time of year to address such needs because it would mean the end of the hunt for this season, or until the mouth behavior was fixed. Of course, allowing this behavior to go on any longer will only make it more difficult to fix There things that can be done that can help reduce or eliminate unwanted chewing.
I personally know of very few of the "basic behaviors that can be fixed while hunting a dog" on a regular basis.


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## Hunting with Drake

Drake will retrieve the woodcock but he spits it out as soon as he gets to me. With the grouse he will chew on it all the way back. There are a lot of things for us to work on for the future and we both enjoy training. I read in a earlier post to make hunting trips into traing trips as well. That's something I'm never thought of but it makes sense, so I'm gonna start doing that. When bird season opened we stopped training and went hunting (probably the last thing I should have done with a 9 month old pup).


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## gundogguy

Of Breed. From Tera Lanczak, Au Gres, Michigan

Progress your dog in small increments. What seems to be a simple task or step in advancement to us humans may not be so simple for our dogs. Our dogs do not possess the ability to reason such as the human mind. They learn through repetition and proper conditioning.
Here are some good rules to follow: 1. Whenever the distance between the dog and the bumper/bird is increased the task is in an advancement state. 2. Whenever the distance between the Handler and dog is increased the task is in an advancement state. These rules will help you not to advance your lessons on multiple tasks in one session or advance too quickly. The rules will also help you know when or how to simplify the task or lesson if your dog is experiencing too many failures. Keep your training simple isolate lessons, teach through a Yes, and always try to end on a positive note.
Happy Training!​


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## yooperguy

Belle's first grouse. It was a great morning with 4 flushes in 2.5 hours.









Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Hunting with Drake

yooperguy2003 said:


> Belle's first grouse. It was a great morning with 4 flushes in 2.5 hours.
> View attachment 46155
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Awesome!!! Great job!


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## Rysalka

Congrats.......good work
Does that mean she now gets to ride up front in the truck?:lol:


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## I'm with Brandy

Hunting with Drake said:


> Yeah Drake was wore out  2 hours of straight running and he was done. The last woodcock we got I just winged him and it went down in a two track and drake finished him off after about a 10 foot chase. After that I gave him more water and then he laid down for a well deserved brake. So I decided to call it a day. As far as letting him hold onto the birds a little while, he didn't like to hold onto the woodcock but he's starting to chew up the grouse. So I whistle him back before he can chew on them to much. I don't know how to stop that cause I want him to "want" the birds but don't know how to discipline him to stop the chewing.
> Yes he was unsure why he had to sit on the tail gate lol. He kinda gave me a "ok this is weird" look but he sat there just the same. The second picture I think he was just to tired to care
> He broke his bell and I had to get a different one, but has anyone put a beeper collar on a springer? It's seems like it would be the modern bell.


Hal is correct either you stop hunting and work with the dog or you try to keep this from becoming a huge issue. I would recommend finding a pro and FF the dog when your done hunting for the season. 

Again if you see him chewing the bird make your way to him cut the time that he has with the bird but if your going to continue to hunt ignore the behavior until the season is over. Force fetch is an option after the season is over but I would tell you not to try it on your own pay a pro to help you.

At his stage in the game never try to correct this issue in the field or around birds.This correction must start at home on the training table. This way the dog knows exactly what it is being corrected for.

There is one thing working in your favor that you can take advantage of and you might want to save a woodcock for it and take it with you every time you go out. You said he does not chew the woodcock so use that. As long as he is truly not chewing woodcock this may help. Praise for good behavior ignore bad.

Fist come up with a word that you might use for him to hold the bird it would be a different command than what you use for retrieving. I use fetch for the retrieve and take for my hold command.

Next when he retrieves a woodcock either one you shoot or one you toss praise him and tell him good take (or what ever your hold command is) *as long as he is not chewing it*. Be happy for him tell him he is a good boy keep repeating good take (hold command while he holds the woodcock. Keep repeating good hold, good hold so he relates the word to holding with a quiet mouth. Then take it from him with the release command and praise him once for the release.

When he comes back with a grouse and he is chewing no praise no correction just take the bird using the release command when he comes back. If he tries to hold on to the bird get eye to eye, nose to nose with him and softly tell him release (what ever your word is for release). Do not yell this will add stress and cause him to bite down on the bird. If you have sunglasses on make sure you take them off he needs to see your eyes.

Some of the mouthing may be teenager stuff some may be stress, I don't remember his age.

I try not to use a bell but have in the past in the ferns. I have never used a beeper. I can't stand that noise. I like it nice and quiet no beepers, bells or guys yelling at their dogs.


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## I'm with Brandy

yooperguy2003 said:


> Belle's first grouse. It was a great morning with 4 flushes in 2.5 hours.
> View attachment 46155
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Congrats, She is a nice looking pup.


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## CDN_Cocker

How many contacts does it take to make a grouse dog? I've heard folks talk about it taking hundreds of contacts to really make a good grouse dog... But I haven't had that many in my entire life so I'm sure it would take 30 years to get that many for the pup. Anything you guys do to stack the odds in your favor? 



Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Hal is correct either you stop hunting and work with the dog or you try to keep this from becoming a huge issue. I would recommend finding a pro and FF the dog when your done hunting for the season.
> 
> Again if you see him chewing the bird make your way to him cut the time that he has with the bird but if your going to continue to hunt ignore the behavior until the season is over. Force fetch is an option after the season is over but I would tell you not to try it on your own pay a pro to help you.
> 
> At his stage in the game never try to correct this issue in the field or around birds.This correction must start at home on the training table. This way the dog knows exactly what it is being corrected for.
> 
> There is one thing working in your favor that you can take advantage of and you might want to save a woodcock for it and take it with you every time you go out. You said he does not chew the woodcock so use that. As long as he is truly not chewing woodcock this may help. Praise for good behavior ignore bad.
> 
> Fist come up with a word that you might use for him to hold the bird it would be a different command than what you use for retrieving. I use fetch for the retrieve and take for my hold command.
> 
> Next when he retrieves a woodcock either one you shoot or one you toss praise him and tell him good take (or what ever your hold command is) *as long as he is not chewing it*. Be happy for him tell him he is a good boy keep repeating good take (hold command while he holds the woodcock. Keep repeating good hold, good hold so he relates the word to holding with a quiet mouth. Then take it from him with the release command and praise him once for the release.
> 
> When he comes back with a grouse and he is chewing no praise no correction just take the bird using the release command when he comes back. If he tries to hold on to the bird get eye to eye, nose to nose with him and softly tell him release (what ever your word is for release). Do not yell this will add stress and cause him to bite down on the bird. If you have sunglasses on make sure you take them off he needs to see your eyes.
> 
> Some of the mouthing may be teenager stuff some may be stress, I don't remember his age.
> 
> I try not to use a bell but have in the past in the ferns. I have never used a beeper. I can't stand that noise. I like it nice and quiet no beepers, bells or guys yelling at their dogs.


Some very sound advice from Gundogguy and IWB. Many of my young pups will give birds they haven't seen before a shake or 2 or give it a little mouthing. I usually stop right there with what ever it is, usually a clip or fresh shot bird and back up to a cold dead bird of the same species. I would save your next grouse for training and not clean it, then keeping it very short tosses (5 yards) in the back yard have him do 2 or 3 retrieves and see how he acts with the cold dead grouse. This is also the perfect place to be using your "place board"...the thing to help solve many of the little troubles you come across in training and hunting. With mouth problems I like the tall 3-4 foot tall platform that Gundogguy uses. It is surprising how giving the dog one more thing to consider will help clean up problems with the correct praise timing. I would do nothing else during the season.

When Zac had his first pigeons at the McGagh clinic, a clip, he gave it a few shakes on the way back in. Paul said no more live pigeons for him until he was handling cold dead ones with easy, so he got 2 weeks of cold dead pigeon fetching, mostly 5-10 yard retrieves in the back yard off his board. Zac has been along on a few hunts this year and has been intro'd to fresh shot grouse and woodcock. 

Good luck HWD. Time for me to head to NLP for a week or so of bird harassment:lol:.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> How many contacts does it take to make a grouse dog? I've heard folks talk about it taking hundreds of contacts to really make a good grouse dog... But I haven't had that many in my entire life so I'm sure it would take 30 years to get that many for the pup. Anything you guys do to stack the odds in your favor?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


CDN you have a flushing Cocker Spaniel correct, donot get caught up in the pointing dog mentality!
Flushing dogs go about life completely differently. Train your dog the birds will come, that is if you have driven the truck to the correct spot in the woods. Hunting grouse with a spaniel is more about where you take the dog to hunt than how many contacts it takes to make a proper grouse dog. If your dog's training is proper they will handle grouse WC pheasants just fine. It the training is faulty the dogs ability to handle the birds will be faulty!


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## yooperguy

Rysalka said:


> Congrats.......good work
> Does that mean she now gets to ride up front in the truck?:lol:





Hunting with Drake said:


> Awesome!!! Great job!





I'm with Brandy said:


> Congrats, She is a nice looking pup.


When the weather get's colder, she will ride in the truck. Maybe even in the front seat! :lol: For now, she really seems to like her crate. I call it her "OH BOY box!" When she sees it in the bed of the truck, her butt gets to waggin' and her expression says OH BOY OH BOY!!:bouncy:

Thank you guys. It was a great morning... hopefully with many to follow.


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## Hunting with Drake

GunDogGuy, IWB, and Dauber Guys thanks for all the advice. Drake and I will be on the training board most of this week working on the mouthing and retieving. After the season is over I'm thinking of taking IWB advice and going to a pro for force fetching and to gain more knowledge on training in general. I've heard good things about Mike Fredrison (sp?) I'm thinking that's where we will go for training this winter.


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## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> CDN you have a flushing Cocker Spaniel correct, donot get caught up in the pointing dog mentality!
> Flushing dogs go about life completely differently. Train your dog the birds will come, that is if you have driven the truck to the correct spot in the woods. Hunting grouse with a spaniel is more about where you take the dog to hunt than how many contacts it takes to make a proper grouse dog. If your dog's training is proper they will handle grouse WC pheasants just fine. It the training is faulty the dogs ability to handle the birds will be faulty!


 
I can't agree with Hal more on this. You don't have a pointing dog. Makes me cringe when people try to apply that to flushing dogs.:yikes: 

It only takes one grouse find, shot and delivered to hand if that helps. Yes your dog will learn some things on the job. But the major tools your dog needs to assist you in getting birds, are obeying the whistle, quartering, retrieving, and using that nose. Anything more that you teach your dog is icing on the cake. The only part you don't teach is the nose part and if your real lucky the quartering, everything else is on you. Can you hunt a flusher with out teaching those things yes. Will you be successful yes. You may have to put more work in the field there may be some yelling at the dog. You may have to pickup your own birds. The dog might hunt for himself and not you. He may decide he doesn't want to swim across the river to get a bird you shot so you may have to get wet or do the bad thing I despise and leave the bird.

You don't have to train to Master Hunter level to have a good hunting dog. That's just pomp and circumstance stuff.

Now as a handler if this is your first flusher it make take you many birds before you learn how to handle your dog properly in any given cover situation.

I like to use this analogy no offense intended here.
As a flusher guy you are a fly fishermen you cast your dog and work him to the birds. A pointer guy is like a bobber fishermen he cast his dog and waits for a hit. 

Both can be enjoyable to-do but they are much different methods in landing a bird.

As a flusher owner you are going to partake in a dance with your dog. It can be smooth and rhythmical or blunt and choppy just depends on how much you teach your dog.

Like Hal said the birds will come. Enjoy the teaching don't rush it, it is bonding time with your dog. Spaniels make great students they love to learn and they always show up with a good attitude.


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## The Doob

fixed the link:

http://www.**************/albums/Dale-Stevenson/2013_09_29_17_54_12_907.jpg


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## gundogguy

The Doob said:


> fixed the link:
> 
> http://www.**************/albums/Dale-Stevenson/2013_09_29_17_54_12_907.jpg


 
Good pic of the Sully dog, right fine cobby little spaniel. Thanks for posting!


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## I'm with Brandy

I uploaded this video in hopes you could see how we handle a runner (grouse) in medium cover. Not sure you can see much photobucket is doing strange things to my HD video. I had her sit 4 times while working that bird. 

http://s399.photobucket.com/user/Cherry_pics/media/Hunting/GOPR0037_0001_0002.mp4.html


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## Blanco

I really hate to cut into your grouse hunting. I'm really enjoying the reports from the field.
But that takes me to a question...
I'm looking for information on a Springer kennel that was around a few years ago called Magnam International in a town called White Pigeon Mich.
Not sure what happened with them but they don't advertise any more.
Probably retired from the business?


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## CDN_Cocker

I'm with Brandy said:


> I uploaded this video in hopes you could see how we handle a runner (grouse) in medium cover. Not sure you can see much photobucket is doing strange things to my HD video. I had her sit 4 times while working that bird.
> 
> http://s399.photobucket.com/user/Cherry_pics/media/Hunting/GOPR0037_0001_0002.mp4.html


I can't get the vid to work

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## I'm with Brandy

CDN_Cocker said:


> I can't get the vid to work
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I think because it is so large it takes a minute or two to load on my computer.

I got to get this gopro working better the videos are so large. When I uploaded the video it was 78MB when I downloaded it was 5MB so they are compressing the video to the point it is crap. I will have to try a different way of sharing the video.


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## gundogguy

Blanco said:


> I really hate to cut into your grouse hunting. I'm really enjoying the reports from the field.
> But that takes me to a question...
> I'm looking for information on a Springer kennel that was around a few years ago called Magnam International in a town called White Pigeon Mich.
> Not sure what happened with them but they don't advertise any more.
> Probably retired from the business?


 
Pm Sent.


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## Gavan

connected to Andrew Green somehow?


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> connected to Andrew Green somehow?


 
Hey Gavan delete some of your PM's


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I think because it is so large it takes a minute or two to load on my computer.
> 
> I got to get this gopro working better the videos are so large. When I uploaded the video it was 78MB when I downloaded it was 5MB so they are compressing the video to the point it is crap. I will have to try a different way of sharing the video.


 
Nice walk in the wood. Kill the heck out that cover:lol::lol:

I'm sure you'll figure how to make some adjustments in the go pro or photo bucket.
Have you tried uploading to You tube?


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## Blanco

Gavan said:


> connected to Andrew Green somehow?


Really just wondered what happened ?
The Spaniel world was very different just 15~20 years ago.
There were 3 times as many trainers and kennels.
Just looking at a links list the other night and 1/3 of the internet listings are no longer any good. It seems to continually shrink. 
Not looking good for the Spaniel sports 

On the other hand the retriever side seems to be exploding and getting more popular by the day.

Sorry, don't mean to be a doomsayer. I guess I will keep my chin up and support the sport all i can


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## Gavan

nfm


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## CDN_Cocker

Blanco said:


> Really just wondered what happened ?
> The Spaniel world was very different just 15~20 years ago.
> There were 3 times as many trainers and kennels.
> Just looking at a links list the other night and 1/3 of the internet listings are no longer any good. It seems to continually shrink.
> Not looking good for the Spaniel sports
> 
> On the other hand the retriever side seems to be exploding and getting more popular by the day.
> 
> Sorry, don't mean to be a doomsayer. I guess I will keep my chin up and support the sport all i can


This is something I've struggled with since getting a cocker as most gun dog information is pointing breed related. Research led me to an English cocker for the hunting I do but seems everyone chooses anything but a spaniel. Oh well, more for us. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## CDN_Cocker

I'm with Brandy said:


> I think because it is so large it takes a minute or two to load on my computer.
> 
> I got to get this gopro working better the videos are so large. When I uploaded the video it was 78MB when I downloaded it was 5MB so they are compressing the video to the point it is crap. I will have to try a different way of sharing the video.


Yeah I would try youtube as they will fix shakiness and clean it up a bit.


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## gundogguy

Blanco said:


> Really just wondered what happened ?
> The Spaniel world was very different just 15~20 years ago.
> There were 3 times as many trainers and kennels.
> Just looking at a links list the other night and 1/3 of the internet listings are no longer any good. It seems to continually shrink.
> Not looking good for the Spaniel sports
> 
> On the other hand the retriever side seems to be exploding and getting more popular by the day.
> 
> Sorry, don't mean to be a doomsayer. I guess I will keep my chin up and support the sport all i can


magnum International closed due to health reason. Owner and staff.

Why would you want bigger numbers? 
You're not a doomsayer. yes there has been some contraction in the trial sport. But that is due more to the fact that competition has gotten stiffer. The genetics are the basically the same with health problems being better understood and test for. Standards being defined by a more intense community of patrons. who also have better training methods than what was just available 15-20 yrs ago. Spaniel are a tough breed to train...for the lay person
Over all the breed, Field bred Springer is a sub set within the recognized Breed the English springer spaniel. Over all the ESS has not changed it position much, concerning breed popularity overall That is neither a good or bad thing. Back 25 yrs ago there was a great British invasion, many of the folks that got these dog neither knew or understood what it takes to make champion. when things got tough...and expensive the newbie's folded. Thank God they did not do a lot of extraordinary breeding.
Quite honestly with the reduce numbers the new folks that are sharp could have great opportunity in making champions.
trials to day are about the same as there were 35 yrs ago when My wife and I started. With this exception in the old days if you had a steady dog in trial you would be the winner. Breaking was the killer, Today, No body breaks or hardly ever, no it is the peripherals that kill a dog in trial. with less dogs things are even tougher.

I like where the sport and the breed is and where it is going.
New research in genetic health, better training methods and options and more intelligent handling is making for a better class of dog.


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## uppower

Hank doing a little double duty. Hit the marsh tonight.


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## Blanco

gundogguy said:


> magnum International closed due to health reason. Owner and staff.
> 
> Why would you want bigger numbers?
> You're not a doomsayer. yes there has been some contraction in the trial sport. But that is due more to the fact that competition has gotten stiffer. The genetics are the basically the same with health problems being better understood and test for. Standards being defined by a more intense community of patrons. who also have better training methods than what was just available 15-20 yrs ago. Spaniel are a tough breed to train...for the lay person
> Over all the breed, Field bred Springer is a sub set within the recognized Breed the English springer spaniel. Over all the ESS has not changed it position much, concerning breed popularity overall That is neither a good or bad thing. Back 25 yrs ago there was a great British invasion, many of the folks that got these dog neither knew or understood what it takes to make champion. when things got tough...and expensive the newbie's folded. Thank God they did not do a lot of extraordinary breeding.
> Quite honestly with the reduce numbers the new folks that are sharp could have great opportunity in making champions.
> trials to day are about the same as there were 35 yrs ago when My wife and I started. With this exception in the old days if you had a steady dog in trial you would be the winner. Breaking was the killer, Today, No body breaks or hardly ever, no it is the peripherals that kill a dog in trial. with less dogs things are even tougher.
> 
> I like where the sport and the breed is and where it is going.
> New research in genetic health, better training methods and options and more intelligent handling is making for a better class of dog.


I agree with you 100%
It has it's good and bad points. I see quite a few of the long time patrons dropping out and retiring. That makes room for those of us that need to advance to keep the sport alive.
On second thought concerning the Labs, Maybe it is better to not be as popular. As a breed they have quite a few issues, but they are improving.
I will say overall the majority of Springer breeders a very responsible about health testing. I cant say that I have seen any field bred with major issues.
By the way any one have a listing of Canadian Springer trainers and kennels? I seem to only be able to find one that deals with Springers, I know there are more. Possibly they don't advertise?


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## gundogguy

uppower said:


> Hank doing a little double duty. Hit the marsh tonight.
> View attachment 46563


 
Very nice Now your having fun!


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## dauber

uppower said:


> Hank doing a little double duty. Hit the marsh tonight.
> View attachment 46563


Good job Hank and Upp!


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> This is something I've struggled with since getting a cocker as *most gun dog information is pointing breed* related. Research led me to an English cocker for the hunting I do but seems everyone chooses anything but a spaniel. Oh well, more for us.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


What information on spaniel training do you need and cannot find?
This must be a concern, cause it is the 2nd time you have posted something about the need for more information or the lack of information concerning Spaniels.


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## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> What information on spaniel training do you need and cannot find?
> This must be a concern, cause it is the 2nd time you have posted something about the need for more information or the lack of information concerning Spaniels.


No that's not what I mean. Lots of info out there lol. I just meant in regards to popularity very few folks have spaniels which bummed me out before I started training with the retriever crowd. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## CDN_Cocker

Blanco said:


> By the way any one have a listing of Canadian Springer trainers and kennels? I seem to only be able to find one that deals with Springers, I know there are more. Possibly they don't advertise?


O'Grady's Springerville Kennels are very popular in Ontario. There is also Banin. Both guys breed exceptional dogs from what I have heard and I have spoken with both. 

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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> No that's not what I mean. Lots of info out there lol. I just meant in regards to* popularity* very few folks have spaniels which bummed me out before I started training with the retriever crowd.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


 You made a decision to train with the retriever folks based on convenience. when I acquired my 1st field bred springer, there was nobody in Western Michigan that had one. My training class was in Cincinnati Ohio, 6 hour drive one way. No Internet two books and knowledgeable folks 6 hours away. I did not care one iota if the breed was popular or not all I knew was that the breed suited my style of hunting and my lifestyle. How does popularity help one raise a dog?
Got to go, off to buy training birds!


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## Blanco

Mr. Gator will be competing at the Great Lakes trial this weekend.
He managed a second place in the S. Michigan trial last weekend. He had a third place the weekend before in New York.
I just hope he continues the string in an upward linear mode 
I'm still waiting on some pictures from Geeb

Go Gatorman


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## JAM

Blanco said:


> Mr. Gator will be competing at the Great Lakes trial this weekend.
> He managed a second place in the S. Michigan trial last weekend. He had a third place the weekend before in New York.
> I just hope he continues the string in an upward linear mode
> I'm still waiting on some pictures from Geeb
> 
> Go Gatorman


Congrats! Good work and best wishes for more success.


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## michgundog

Blanco said:


> Mr. Gator will be competing at the Great Lakes trial this weekend.
> He managed a second place in the S. Michigan trial last weekend. He had a third place the weekend before in New York.
> I just hope he continues the string in an upward linear mode
> I'm still waiting on some pictures from Geeb
> 
> Go Gatorman


Congrats!!! I'll contact Geeb and have him send you picks ASAP. My dog was "consistent" we got bounced in the first on Sunday. This time it was all on me. He did his job, I didn't trust his nose and punched down the field missing a bird!! Prior to that he was rock steady on a fly away/honor, steady on his second bird and hupped/steady, coming back on a retrieve to a bird that volunteered. The retrieve was really tough in thick cover. The judge told me he was really bummed that I caused him to be bounced. I have to learn I'm not hunting but trialling and slow the heck down. 

I was happy to see my good friend and Mentor John Skiba win with Millie and friends like Mark Gebert and Rico who came in second and 2 other really good guys and friends finish all 3 series mike pollack and booker along with Justin smith and his little girl Sally. 

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## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> O'Grady's Springerville Kennels are very popular in Ontario. There is also Banin. Both guys breed exceptional dogs from what I have heard and I have spoken with both.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


As far as Canadian springer guys go, I've seen dogs from Casey Butz that were real nice!! See link. 

http://www.abittkennels.ca/ProfessionalTraining.htm


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## gundogguy

Blanco said:


> Mr. Gator will be competing at the Great Lakes trial this weekend.
> He managed a second place in the S. Michigan trial last weekend. He had a third place the weekend before in New York.
> I just hope he continues the string in an upward linear mode
> I'm still waiting on some pictures from Geeb
> 
> Go Gatorman


 
Good job Clinton!
Brent Lemaster has done a fine job training and handling that pup.
Will you be letting Brent campaign him in the Open?


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## Blanco

I have the utmost in respect and faith in Brent as a trainer and handler. Not to mention I like him as a person, and I consider him a friend.
I think he will be running dogs for me in quite a few different venues including the AA. 
Gator has a ways to go before he will be ready, but I intend for him to be with Brent as much as possible.
There will come a time when Gator will need to come back home so that I can play with him. Hopefully I will have another young protegee for him to work on at that time.
If you need a trainer I would wholeheartedly endorse Brent. The great part about it is he only takes on as many dogs as he can train so your dog gets plenty of attention.


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## JimP

I tried the main forum for a couple weeks, maybe a specific to Spaniel (Springer) thread will have more feedback.

After successfully finding a Lab for a friend here on M-S, now it's my turn.
After losing our 14 YO Springer mix 5 years ago, and our 16 YO Beagle mix last year, we're back on the trail looking for a new pup. 
We missed 2 different ones from shelters by a day or two on "Petfinder" so now we're getting proactive.
We're looking for somebody's accident that already happened, not a pure bred.

Specifically: Male puppy, Black and White, predominently Springer featured mix that should stay under 35-40 lbs.








We got used to seeing the white in the woods and the black in the snow, and easy to carry for older folks.:lol:
Judged healthy parents and pup by a vet and shots worming etc taken care of. We'll reimburse expenses.
A bobbed tail a plus...We'll cover reasonable vet costs and any travel involved.
Looking at frisky and curious but attentive and affectionate.

PM's welcomed, I'll provide an email for pics...
Thank you any and all that may offer some help....

Jim


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## gundogguy

jimp said:


> I tried the main forum for a couple weeks, maybe a specific to Spaniel (Springer) thread will have more feedback.
> 
> After successfully finding a Lab for a friend here on M-S, now it's my turn.
> After losing our 14 YO Springer mix 5 years ago, and our 16 YO Beagle mix last year, we're back on the trail looking for a new pup.
> We missed 2 different ones from shelters by a day or two on "Petfinder" so now we're getting proactive.
> We're looking for somebody's accident that already happened, not a pure bred.
> 
> Specifically: Male puppy, Black and White, predominently Springer featured mix that should stay under 35-40 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We got used to seeing the white in the woods and the black in the snow, and easy to carry for older folks.:lol:
> Judged healthy parents and pup by a vet and shots worming etc taken care of. We'll reimburse expenses.
> A bobbed tail a plus...We'll cover reasonable vet costs and any travel involved.
> Looking at frisky and curious but attentive and affectionate.
> 
> PM's welcomed, I'll provide an email for pics...
> Thank you any and all that may offer some help....
> 
> Jim


Jim
There are a lot of eyes and ears on this thread maybe some one will get wind of a situation, that will fit your needs.
While we are waiting to hear something here is a site you might check out that would give you some general info about Springer's and to some extent Cockers as well.

http://www.essft.com/

Best of fortunes in your search!


----------



## JAM

jimp said:


> I tried the main forum for a couple weeks, maybe a specific to Spaniel (Springer) thread will have more feedback.
> 
> After successfully finding a Lab for a friend here on M-S, now it's my turn.
> After losing our 14 YO Springer mix 5 years ago, and our 16 YO Beagle mix last year, we're back on the trail looking for a new pup.
> We missed 2 different ones from shelters by a day or two on "Petfinder" so now we're getting proactive.
> We're looking for somebody's accident that already happened, not a pure bred.
> 
> Specifically: Male puppy, Black and White, predominently Springer featured mix that should stay under 35-40 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We got used to seeing the white in the woods and the black in the snow, and easy to carry for older folks.:lol:
> Judged healthy parents and pup by a vet and shots worming etc taken care of. We'll reimburse expenses.
> A bobbed tail a plus...We'll cover reasonable vet costs and any travel involved.
> Looking at frisky and curious but attentive and affectionate.
> 
> PM's welcomed, I'll provide an email for pics...
> Thank you any and all that may offer some help....
> 
> Jim


Here's a link to the Springer Rescue Site. It would be great if you could find a good match there.

http://www.springerrescue.org/dogdocs/regions/available.php?reg=MW

Good luck in your search.


----------



## JimP

gundogguy said:


> Jim
> There are a lot of eyes and ears on this thread maybe some one will get wind of a situation, that will fit your needs.
> While we are waiting to hear something here is a site you might check out that would give you some general info about Springer's and to some extent Cockers as well.
> 
> http://www.essft.com/
> 
> Best of fortunes in your search!


We've had full Springer's _and_ mixes on and off for decades.
The best for us were mixes.
That's what we're hoping for, a lot of eye's out there.
Much prefer a private family and a pup...easier to socialize with kids, other dogs and cats, and train to our own liking and lifestyle..

We're hoping to find one soon before the snows hit too heavy for house breaking. A half acre back yard, a deck and steps with 12" of snow will be too much for a 12" tall pup, :lol:
Might have to hold off and look again in the spring.
Thank you all for any leads...


----------



## Blanco

Geeb finally came thru.
Thanks to Photography by Geeb for the pictures.
And thanks to Mike also, and he knows why.



















Need some Mojo for the Great Lakes trial this weekend.

Go Gatorman


----------



## Blanco

Well .... No chicken dinner tonight


----------



## gundogguy

Blanco said:


> Well .... No chicken dinner tonight


In the case of a puppy stake the best you can ever hope for is a pigeon dinner, fried or braised..

Here is a photo of the 4th place pup.. Our blazing hot Zeta girl!
Her first and last puppy stake placement. She will begin training for the all-age 11/1...after some well deserved hunting trips.
See you out on the trials, spring 2014!
Hie-on


----------



## yooperguy

Congrats Zeta! Happy hunting.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Keith did you work the Onaway trial today??

I worked it yesterday. Garver, David and I worked the Derby.

Took the dogs with me for the exposure. Xander (Brandywine Sue's Brandy Alexander) retrieved his first duck a Drake Mallard.

























My little Drake (Brandywine Sue's shaken not stirred Dra-Kahlua)

Made a new friend but was not up to the challenge of a full size duck yet. He was happy with a grouse wing.


----------



## Hunting with Drake

I'm with Brandy said:


> Keith did you work the Onaway trial today??
> 
> I worked it yesterday. Garver, David and I worked the Derby.
> 
> Took the dogs with me for the exposure. Xander (Brandywine Sue's Brandy Alexander) retrieved his first duck a Drake Mallard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My little Drake (Brandywine Sue's shaken not stirred Dra-Kahlua)
> 
> Made a new friend but was not up to the challenge of a full size duck yet. He was happy with a grouse wing.


Yep. Worked as the gunner for the live duck launcher. We gunned for the A and Q pro field.


----------



## Blanco

gundogguy said:


> In the case of a puppy stake the best you can ever hope for is a pigeon dinner, fried or braised..
> 
> Here is a photo of the 4th place pup.. Our blazing hot Zeta girl!
> Her first and last puppy stake placement. She will begin training for the all-age 11/1...after some well deserved hunting trips.
> See you out on the trials, spring 2014!
> Hie-on


Congrats to you and Zeta
It always feels good to walk away with something.


----------



## JAM

Great pics, guys! Keep 'em coming! Nice to see Dante getting some action.

I went out for the first time this afternoon. I was surprised at how dry it is in the woods here. Bullet put up a WC which I missed. Stormy didn't flush any but a grouse volunteered on the opposite side of the road he was hunting. I didn't even attempt to shoot that one. And... as usual... there was a grouse standing in the driveway of the camp when I was leaving. :smile-mad


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Great pics, guys! Keep 'em coming! Nice to see Dante getting some action.
> 
> I didn't even attempt to shoot that one. And... as* usual*... there was a grouse standing in the driveway of the camp when I was leaving. :smile-mad


Well did you ground sluice the King of game birds? Enquiring minds want to know? Did you have him for dinner that night? :lol:


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Well did you ground sluice the King of game birds? Enquiring minds want to know? Did you have him for dinner that night? :lol:


Just let Stormy out:yikes: he takes no prisoners!!

I just had a very interesting 4.5 days hunting with 9 springers, all hunted very British like, I mean no more than 5 yards in front and 10 yards to the side. I thought trying to keep mine at 10-15 yards in front and 20-30 on the sides was tight. What was slightly surprising is after they learned how to shoot in the thick cover they were getting similar numbers of birds as I was. They took "precision hunting" to the extreme. They had one of their springers catch a grouse too. It was very interesting seeing a different method still be quite successful.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Well did you ground sluice the King of game birds? Enquiring minds want to know? Did you have him for dinner that night? :lol:


Nope. Good thing we weren't counting on me for supper tonight. 

Actually, I don't enjoy the three "C's". Carrying, Cleaning & Cooking. I mostly enjoy the dogs working. Of course, if they put one up I attempt to shoot it so they can have a retrieve and would never just let a bird go to waste. I don't eat WC but have friends that are glad to take them.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Just let Stormy out:yikes: he takes no prisoners!!
> 
> I just had a very interesting 4.5 days hunting with 9 springers, all hunted very British like, I mean no more than 5 yards in front and 10 yards to the side. I thought trying to keep mine at 10-15 yards in front and 20-30 on the sides was tight. What was slightly surprising is after they learned how to shoot in the thick cover they were getting similar numbers of birds as I was. They took "precision hunting" to the extreme. They had one of their springers catch a grouse too. It was very interesting seeing a different method still be quite successful.


Funny you should mention that, Dauber. A few years ago (probably before we had Stormy) we let Bullet out of the truck at our camp and he immediately dove under a spruce in the camp yard and came out with a grouse. I was amazed! After our little hunt at camp we headed for Sundell to train. I didn't want the bird to spoil so I gave it to Archie. He later emailed to say that bird was starving and had very little meat.

Sounds like you had a good time with the "Tea and Crumpet" springers. Glad they got a few birds. I could NEVER keep Stormy that close. In fact, today he was running way too big but this was our first grouse hunt after trialling. I hope to rein him in as the season progresses.

Keep the reports coming. I check in every day to see if there's any news from the group.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Funny you should mention that, Dauber. A few years ago (probably before we had Stormy) we let Bullet out of the truck at our camp and he immediately dove under a spruce in the camp yard and came out with a grouse. I was amazed! After our little hunt at camp we headed for Sundell to train. I didn't want the bird to spoil so I gave it to Archie. He later emailed to say that bird was starving and had very little meat.
> 
> Sounds like you had a good time with the "Tea and Crumpet" springers. Glad they got a few birds. I could NEVER keep Stormy that close. In fact, today he was running way too big but this was our first grouse hunt after trialling. I hope to rein him in as the season progresses.
> 
> Keep the reports coming. I check in every day to see if there's any news from the group.


Heading up towards your camp tomorrow. Hope we get cell service.

Believe me they thought Smoke was a borderline out of control monster:lol::lol:.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Nope. Good thing we weren't counting on me for supper tonight.
> 
> Actually, I don't enjoy the three "C's". Carrying, Cleaning & Cooking. I mostly enjoy the dogs working. Of course, if they put one up I attempt to shoot it so they can have a retrieve and would never just let a bird go to waste. I don't eat WC but have friends that are glad to take them.


I can relate, suppose it goes back to 20+ years of guiding. Seen some awful stuff done just to put a bird in the bag.
I usually chalked it up to immaturity and a lack of respect for the game.
It always put me on alert as to who I was guiding, you know you just had to watch'em cause from that point on you just did not have any confidence in their decision making process.
Enjoy the season hunt safe!


----------



## Gavan

to keep the dog that close? Just wondering if they were as quiet as you are. Interesting they were producing grouse flushes at a similar rate by keeping their dogs that close. Woodcock I can see sitting still for that but it would surprise me if the grouse would sit around and wait for the dog to beat the cover to death like that.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Just let Stormy out:yikes: he takes no prisoners!!
> 
> I just had a very interesting 4.5 days hunting with 9 springers, all hunted very British like, *I mean no more than 5 yards in front and 10* *yards to the side*. I thought trying to keep mine at 10-15 yards in front and 20-30 on the sides was tight. What was slightly surprising is after they learned how to shoot in the thick cover they were getting similar numbers of birds as I was. They took "precision hunting" to the extreme. They had one of their springers catch a grouse too. It was very interesting seeing a different method still be quite successful.


 
I would not even get my Acme 210 out of the pocket if that was the kind of range Me dogs had.

Remember the Paul French Cocker National video 






That's all one would need for 5 yards of depth and 10 yards of width.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> to keep the dog that close? Just wondering if they were as quiet as you are. Interesting they were producing grouse flushes at a similar rate by keeping their dogs that close. Woodcock I can see sitting still for that but it would surprise me if the grouse would sit around and wait for the dog to beat the cover to death like that.


They were very quite just some soft voice clicks and very soft whistle. They have talented dogs which is a must with such a small beat. Their dogs would make the game at that close distance but would dash out from there to make the flush another 10-15 yards farther out. Now I wouldn't say they produced the same amount of flushes but same amount of shots and good shots. Most every bird they flushed they could shoot at.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

"CHAT UP THE DNR GUY"

I was headed home yesterday morning after a grouseless morning and stopped to check out a 10 yo softwood clearcut. Unfortunately, a guy was parked at the exact spot I wanted to be and was probably hunting in there. But fortunately, a DNR forester was parked along that same two track and just getting out of his truck. I knew the guy from some OHs. I asked the guy what his project was that morning. He was doing a cruise getting ready for a selective cut. I asked had he seen any grouse hereabouts? He offered he had been flushing birds in "X" place just down the road. Just then a drummer started up from that very woods. :yikes:

Its an unconventional looking cover and I have driven by it a hundred times. Never went in there. But I will investigate thoroughly next week.


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> "CHAT UP THE DNR GUY"
> 
> I was headed home yesterday morning after a grouseless morning and stopped to check out a 10 yo softwood clearcut. Unfortunately, a guy was parked at the exact spot I wanted to be and was probably hunting in there. But fortunately, a DNR forester was parked along that same two track and just getting out of his truck. I knew the guy from some OHs. I asked the guy what his project was that morning. He was doing a cruise getting ready for a selective cut. I asked had he seen any grouse hereabouts? He offered he had been flushing birds in "X" place just down the road. Just then a drummer started up from that very woods. :yikes:
> 
> Its an unconventional looking cover and I have driven by it a hundred times. Never went in there. But I will investigate thoroughly next week.


Hey NB your giving away my top secrete! Hope you have some luck. Conditions are great up here Marquette Co.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Hey NB your giving away my top secrete! Hope you have some luck. Conditions are great up here Marquette Co.


Yah, lotsa internet hot spotters lurking around these forums these day. Even on TSC II :yikes: I think we need a secret password or something.

So for the OHIO guys and the other lurkers, the location I was speaking about is two hours directly Due WEST of this location.:lol:

Good Huntin', Steve.

Hie ON!

NB


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> So for the OHIO guys and the other lurkers, the location I was speaking about is two hours directly Due *WEST* of this location.:lol:
> 
> Good Huntin', Steve.
> 
> Hie ON!
> 
> NB


 Nb. I'm sorry I just donot think I could tread water long enough to find any birds in that location *West* of your location:fish2::lol:


----------



## I'm with Brandy

No Grouse hunting in the past few days mucho work. But we did pickup birds at a tower shoot yesterday. Three dogs for pickup 37 shooters and 350 birds. The three dogs picked up 190+ birds. The sand briars where very bad. Was able to get the ones off Brandy's body the ears had to go.










It all came off like carpet. Her poor eyelids got cut up too.










We did get out earlier in the week and took some Grouse this was a large male not as big as the one I have mounted the one mounted has a 21.6" wingspan. I have some great video of us taking the bird but finding it very hard to get Photobucket or YouTube to take the video with out corrupting the quality.












Hal what would be nice in the Northern lower is just a spaniel training club need not be tied to AKC. I know there are spaniel owners that just want to train their dogs better but have no interest in trials or even hunt test. It is one of the reasons I hang out with the retriever crowed, closes I can get to a training group and I can often convince some of them to help me with upland work once and a while. Plus when I help out at their retriever trials it helps me get access to training grounds like this one in Onaway.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Over the last week I have got considerable enjoyment out of my pup Jake as he has learned the "ways of the grouse" hahaha. We have taken a few (which compared to last year when I was dogless is a 1000% increase lol. I only bagged 1 all last season) and have just had some really nice days in the field together. We also flushed our first woodcock (for both of us!) although I couldn't hit it to save my life hahaha. Once we got our first grouse, Jake just... turned on. It's like everything just clicked and he hunts hard for them the entire time we're out, stops on the whistle at a flush, and retrieves them like an old pro. I can't even imagine what he'll be like in a couple of years. Jake has basic obedience very solid as I work on it no matter where we are and we do a lot of retriever drills. As far as patterning/quartering goes I haven't done a whole lot but he takes hand signals and turns on the whistle, his natural pattern is quite good for what we do. I do plan on working on it more, but my main goal for this season was to get him some wild bird experience which we are doing wonderfully. It has been a great couple of weeks. I guess now to the point of this... I was worried as the bird numbers around here are low - they're few and far between and heard pointing dog people say that a dog needs hundreds of contacts to become a good grouse dog. After having such a successful week I sure am glad I went with a spaniel instead of a pointer - he's probably only had 2 dozen contacts at most and he is a grouse finding machine! As soon as I send him off he's got a one track mind. Its nice to see everything coming together and I'm glad I've had TSC to learn as much as I have about training my crazy cocker.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Over the last week I have got considerable enjoyment out of my pup Jake as he has learned the "ways of the grouse" hahaha. We have taken a few (which compared to last year when I was dogless is a 1000% increase lol. I only bagged 1 all last season) and have just had some really nice days in the field together. We also flushed our first woodcock (for both of us!) although I couldn't hit it to save my life hahaha. Once we got our first grouse, Jake just... turned on. It's like everything just clicked and he hunts hard for them the entire time we're out, stops on the whistle at a flush, and retrieves them like an old pro. I can't even imagine what he'll be like in a couple of years. Jake has basic obedience very solid as I work on it no matter where we are and we do a lot of retriever drills. As far as patterning/quartering goes I haven't done a whole lot but he takes hand signals and turns on the whistle, his natural pattern is quite good for what we do. I do plan on working on it more, but my main goal for this season was to get him some wild bird experience which we are doing wonderfully. It has been a great couple of weeks. I guess now to the point of this... I was worried as the bird numbers around here are low - they're few and far between and heard pointing dog people say that a dog needs hundreds of contacts to become a good grouse dog. After having such a successful week I sure am glad I went with a spaniel instead of a pointer - he's probably only had 2 dozen contacts at most and he is a grouse finding machine! As soon as I send him off he's got a one track mind. Its nice to see everything coming together and I'm glad I've had TSC to learn as much as I have about training my crazy cocker.


Your hooked now you found out the secret I did 7 years ago, spaniels are fantastic hunting partners. Congrats its sounds like you two are on your way to many years of fun hunting together.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> http://i399.
> 
> Hal [B]what would be nice in the Northern lower is just a spaniel training club need not be tied to AKC. I know there are spaniel owners that just want to train their dogs better but have no interest in trials or even hunt test. [/B]
> 
> Well lets see how this works out. That is great Doug, a spaniel training group that has no affiliations with a breed organization. Especially AKC.
> UKC? Continental Kennel Club? FCI?
> How many folks would be interested in such a training group?
> What standards of behaviors would be the focal point of the training groups?
> 
> Spaniel field trial clubs usually donot have a lot of all breed training, such as retriever or pointer, Would all breed be encouraged? Or would this training group be breed specific?
> Who would be in charge of the location or grounds? Are training birds going to be individuals responsibility or communal? what about liability? Who's is it and who provides the insurance?
> 
> These are just some of the questions I had to answer 25 years ago when I formed my training group program. My training group is not affiliated with AKC or UKC OR CKC or any Spaniel training club. I'm a member of The GLESSFTA but my Training Class is not part of that club's functions or periodic training program.
> My training classes were formed as a for profit activity. Most Dogs are Non-Profit. Profit is the grease that makes the program go!
> 
> If there is any thing I can do to assist you in starting a program in the great Northern third of the State do not hesitate to contact.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Nb. I'm sorry I just donot think I could tread water long enough to find any birds in that location *West* of your location:fish2::lol:


That's OK, Hal. 

'Twas justa little bit of UpNorth humor FBO the Downstaters/Outastaters clogging up the highways/byways/ and grouse covers this weekend. Its leaf peepers season. 

What's the limit on tourists? I think we're over this weekend.

No worries mate, TPR will be back at 'em tomorrow morning.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

*Central Ontario Spaniel Club [National Championship Open]*
_Dornoch, Ontario_
*Sat, Oct 12, 2013 to Tue, Oct 15, 2013*

*Mike Wallace, Salmy Kennel *has completed the 3rd series with 4 dogs still in the hunt for a win, championships conclude Oct 15. 
As reported tough conditions hot heavy cover, though good birds and good gunning!
Mike is in the hunt for a repeat of last year!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> *Central Ontario Spaniel Club [National Championship Open]*
> _Dornoch, Ontario_
> *Sat, Oct 12, 2013 to Tue, Oct 15, 2013*
> 
> *Mike Wallace, Salmy Kennel *has completed the 3rd series with 6 dogs still in the hunt for a win, championships conclude Oct 15.
> As reported tough conditions hot heavy cover, though good birds and good gunning!
> Mike is in the hunt for a repeat of last year!


Nice job, Team Salmy!


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> *Central Ontario Spaniel Club [National Championship Open]*
> _Dornoch, Ontario_
> *Sat, Oct 12, 2013 to Tue, Oct 15, 2013*
> 
> *Mike Wallace, Salmy Kennel *has completed the 3rd series with 4 dogs still in the hunt for a win, championships conclude Oct 15.
> As reported tough conditions hot heavy cover, though good birds and good gunning!
> Mike is in the hunt for a repeat of last year!


 
From Mike Wallace in Ontario

All four of ours thru the 4th series. 
Callbacks and water soon.

trial moving quickly!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> From Mike Wallace in Ontario
> 
> All four of ours thru the 4th series.
> Callbacks and water soon.
> 
> trial moving quickly!


Nice Job Team Salmy!


----------



## gundogguy

*Michael Wallace* reporting

American dogs sweep National Open
Jeff Miller for the win
Dan Lussen 2nd
Mike Wallace 3rd
Gary Wilson 4th

Salmy's Kelli C M Kelli had cancer last year when she was Hi-point dog Big comeback!

Salmy's Misty age 9.5 finishes the trial 5land 2 water


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> *Michael Wallace* reporting
> 
> American dogs sweep National Open
> Jeff Miller for the win
> Dan Lussen 2nd
> Mike Wallace 3rd
> Gary Wilson 4th
> 
> Salmy's Kelli C M Kelli had cancer last year when she was Hi-point dog Big comeback!
> 
> Salmy's Misty age 9.5 finishes the trial 5land 2 water



Good show at the Nationals, Team Salmy!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> *Michael Wallace* reporting
> 
> American dogs sweep National Open
> Jeff Miller for the win
> Dan Lussen 2nd
> Mike Wallace 3rd
> Gary Wilson 4th
> 
> Salmy's Kelli C M Kelli had cancer last year when she was Hi-point dog Big comeback!
> 
> Salmy's Misty age 9.5 finishes the trial 5land 2 water


Congrats to all placers!


----------



## gundogguy

Canadian National Open

Tanner with Miller
Quincy with Lussen
sugar with Wallace
Ranger with Wilson

There dog and handlers, The CNO is a nice warm-up for the USA NOC and NAC.

Dr Jeff Miller DVM long time spanieler from Seattle was the only amateur among the placers.

Springer Nationals: 
*National Amateur Championship - Wilmington Ohio - Tuesday, November 19 to conclusion*

*National Open Championship - Cambridge MD - Sunday, December 8 to conclusion*


----------



## michgundog

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=26140&cat=16&date=1205788711

Only 4 pups remaining, they will be ready for new homes 11/23. Still available 2 females 1 white/liver & 1 white/black. Same colors available for the boys. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## uppower

Good night in the duck blind! 6 retrieves for Hank.


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## dauber

uppower said:


> Good night in the duck blind! 6 retrieves for Hank.
> View attachment 47727


Nice job Hank! Looks like he has the ducks down now.


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## yooperguy

Looks like Hank has his ducks in a row now! LOL... sorry... couldn't help myself!


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## JAM

Congrats to all the trial placements. Nice job!

Great job on the birds to all the spaniel hunters. Lovin' the pics and reports!


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## JAM

My friends with GSP's and I did a little pheasant farm hunt on Monday. My friend took a few snaps of my boys and me I thought I'd share.




























Bullet got a little hot and decided to take a nice, cool mud bath. UGH!


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

JAM said:


> My friends with GSP's and I did a little pheasant farm hunt on Monday. My friend took a few snaps of my boys and me I thought I'd share.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullet got a little hot and decided to take a nice, cool mud bath. UGH!


 Very Nice! Great photos.

Regards
JT


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## Jeffrey Towler

uppower said:


> Good night in the duck blind! 6 retrieves for Hank.
> View attachment 47727


 
Very Cool Name. I have a Springer named Hank, who I love very much.

Regards
JT


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## michgundog

uppower said:


> Good night in the duck blind! 6 retrieves for Hank.
> View attachment 47727


Great picture! 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

JAM said:


> My friends with GSP's and I did a little pheasant farm hunt on Monday. My friend took a few snaps of my boys and me I thought I'd share.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullet got a little hot and decided to take a nice, cool mud bath. UGH!


Very nice Team JAM!! Glad yous had a nice day and a good relaxing hunt. When we get back from all our camping trips we'll have to get in a little late fall training. 

Zac is continuing his training and had a productive session yesterday with controlled flushes and a few shot birds and a very nice track. He is coming along nicely and should be very ready for next year's hunting season.


----------



## dauber

Here is the running order for the 2013 NCC.

http://www.fieldcockers.com/ncc2013/documents/2013_NCC_Running_Order.pdf


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Very nice Team JAM!! Glad yous had a nice day and a good relaxing hunt. When we get back from all our camping trips we'll have to get in a little late fall training.
> 
> Zac is continuing his training and had a productive session yesterday with controlled flushes and a few shot birds and a very nice track. He is coming along nicely and should be very ready for next year's hunting season.


Thanks, Dauber. Yeah... Hurry back! We'll be waiting for you and your pocket-rockets to show their stuff. You might have to buy a bigger freezer next year when little Zac attacks the woods.


----------



## METRO1

Another fun 7 hours of hunting over past weekend.had 32 flushes about half woodcock this was a special hunt.my buddies son hunting with us for only the 2nd time shot his limit of woodcock.then marsha kills her first woodcock after shelly procuced a double for us.marsha shot and drop the 1 st woodcock and as the second one flushed i was in shock marsha killed the first one i just watched 2nd one fly off.now she wants new gun with more shots. She s been using a single shot 410 she says she s graduated from that and wants more shots.


----------



## gundogguy

METRO1 said:


> Another fun 7 hours of hunting over past weekend.had 32 flushes about half woodcock this was a special hunt.my buddies son hunting with us for only the 2nd time shot his limit of woodcock.then marsha kills her first woodcock after shelly procuced a double for us.marsha shot and drop the 1 st woodcock and as the second one flushed i was in shock marsha killed the first one i just watched 2nd one fly off.now she wants new gun with more shots. She s been using a single shot 410 she says she s graduated from that and wants more shots.


Good job Gary!
Taking folks out with good dogs and showing them there is no great mystery in having a a successful day afield! Good for you!


----------



## gundogguy

uppower said:


> Good night in the duck blind! 6 retrieves for Hank.
> View attachment 47727


Now that your putting your pup into his wheel house, doing what he was breed to do! Your having fun now!!



JAM said:


> My friends with GSP's and I did a little pheasant farm hunt on Monday. My friend took a few snaps of my boys and me I thought I'd share.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullet got a little hot and decided to take a nice, cool mud bath. UGH!


Looking good Jam! It is amazing what a well train dog can do for out time in the field! Nice pics


----------



## dauber

METRO1 said:


> Another fun 7 hours of hunting over past weekend.had 32 flushes about half woodcock this was a special hunt.my buddies son hunting with us for only the 2nd time shot his limit of woodcock.then marsha kills her first woodcock after shelly procuced a double for us.marsha shot and drop the 1 st woodcock and as the second one flushed i was in shock marsha killed the first one i just watched 2nd one fly off.now she wants new gun with more shots. She s been using a single shot 410 she says she s graduated from that and wants more shots.


Very nice Gary! Have fun gun shopping.


----------



## michgundog

METRO1 said:


> Another fun 7 hours of hunting over past weekend.had 32 flushes about half woodcock this was a special hunt.my buddies son hunting with us for only the 2nd time shot his limit of woodcock.then marsha kills her first woodcock after shelly procuced a double for us.marsha shot and drop the 1 st woodcock and as the second one flushed i was in shock marsha killed the first one i just watched 2nd one fly off.now she wants new gun with more shots. She s been using a single shot 410 she says she s graduated from that and wants more shots.


Good job Gary. Sounds like a shopping trip to Williams in Flint is in your future? 


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----------



## METRO1

shoppings done. the black youth model 20 guage to left of her in pic. is hers to use now.


----------



## michgundog

http://m.spokesman.com/stories/2013/oct/13/senior-springer-spaniel-inspires-desire-for-the/

Who's all going out this Sunday? 




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----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> http://m.spokesman.com/stories/2013/oct/13/senior-springer-spaniel-inspires-desire-for-the/
> 
> Who's all going out this Sunday?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Love the story in the link. 

Congrats to Marsha on her new gun!


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> Love the story in the link.
> 
> Congrats to Marsha on her new gun!


Yes it's a great story until the part where the was thinking about what kind of dog he should get next.(??) lol 


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----------



## METRO1

Mike that decision will be easy for him. A cocker spaniel of course


----------



## michgundog

METRO1 said:


> Mike that decision will be easy for him. A cocker spaniel of course


LOL!! Sounds like he really liked that springer. Why change now???


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> http://m.spokesman.com/stories/2013/oct/13/senior-springer-spaniel-inspires-desire-for-the/
> 
> Who's all going out this Sunday?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Nice story mike Thanks for posting..

Sunday? I go out every day, wet today! Sunday will be just another day behind the dog carrying the stick! Have fun!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Nice story mike Thanks for posting..
> 
> Sunday? I go out every day, wet today! Sunday will be just another day behind the dog carrying the stick! Have fun!


Sunday is the pheasant opener 10/20. The story is a good one. Julep and Finn are ready!!









Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Okay I think I got this video uploaded correctly this time. This is a video I took of Brandy and I doing some grouse hunting with the wind to our backs not sure if you can see Brandy working about 40 yards off to my right. With the wind to our backs she has to go around the outside of the autumn olive to scent the birds. I have set my self up between the food and the woods knowing the birds will head past me to get to safety. Might be better to watch it full screen and at 1080P.





 

I won't be going out this weekend for Pheasant but will a few days after the open.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Okay I think I got this video uploaded correctly this time. This is a video I took of Brandy and I doing some grouse hunting with the wind to our backs not sure if you can see Brandy working about 40 yards off to my right. With the wind to our backs she has to go around the outside of the autumn olive to scent the birds. I have set my self up between the food and the woods knowing the birds will head past me to get to safety. Might be better to watch it full screen and at 1080P.
> 
> Grouse Hunting - YouTube
> 
> 
> I won't be going out this weekend for Pheasant but will a few days after the open.


Thanks Doug I really like your effort. I had a similar vid made during a training yesterday that if it was not for the fact it was a white pigeon used during a line steadying drill not much could have been seen.

I'm going to do some distance testing to day with both cameras to day before and during training Just to see what the limits are in terms yardage and clarity of subject matter.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Great video!


----------



## JAM

Doug, The video is very cool. I know what's going on but I can't see Brandy or the bird. I tried to see it in full screen but it's too pixelated. :sad:


----------



## michgundog

Great source of spaniel related DVD's and other Spaniel items. Just in time for Christmas.

http://www.questgundogs.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=75_78


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Great source of spaniel related DVD's and other Spaniel items. Just in time for Christmas.
> 
> http://www.questgundogs.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=75_78
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
Hey Mike Thanks Quest Gun dogs is good clearing house for quality produce training vids!
I think the David Lissett video I have came from or maybe that was Paul French Videos..

Remember before you put your Credit card down Funds are exchanged at that days rate, dollars to pound, the price listed may not be the price you pay. And also have firm confirmation that the video desired comes in North American or American HD format. British format on video is different than ours will not play on our equipment.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Here is the running order for the 2013 NCC.
> 
> http://www.fieldcockers.com/ncc2013/documents/2013_NCC_Running_Order.pdf


Thanks for posting the running order for this years NCC. You and Mrs Dauber will be attending and working the trial again? I hear the grounds are stellar.

I was interested in who had the most entries in this years NC. The usual suspects, Tom Ness and Paul McGaugh, have nine entries each going. Interesting that their kennels are only a few miles apart near Medoken. Next comes Fred Bradley with five entries and then up and comer Dan Murray with three. The Cocker CH always has a strong AM entry but many (most?) of the dogs are pro trained somewhere along the road.

Our Rocky's littermate sister, Snicket is in there again (#48). There were only two pups left by the time we got there, Rocky and Snicket. She wasn't much to look at, small and roany colored. We wanted a male. Snicket finished her FC easily her first AA year and then placed in that years Nationals to boot.

Good Luck to all the dogs and handlers.

NB


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Hey Mike Thanks Quest Gun dogs is good clearing house for quality produce training vids!
> I think the David Lissett video I have came from or maybe that was Paul French Videos..
> 
> Remember before you put your Credit card down Funds are exchanged at that days rate, dollars to pound, the price listed may not be the price you pay. And also have firm confirmation that the video desired comes in North American or American HD format. British format on video is different than ours will not play on our equipment.


Good points, thanks Hal.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## michgundog

Congratulations to Michigander and SMSSTC member Mary Barna! Her pup Winnie took 3rd place at Ravenna in the puppy stake. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> Congratulations to Michigander and SMSSTC member Mary Barna! Her pup Winnie took 3rd place at Ravenna in the puppy stake.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Glad to see Mary still getting around and having some success.


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Thanks for posting the running order for this years NCC. You and Mrs Dauber will be attending and working the trial again? I hear the grounds are stellar.
> 
> I was interested in who had the most entries in this years NC. The usual suspects, Tom Ness and Paul McGaugh, have nine entries each going. Interesting that their kennels are only a few miles apart near Medoken. Next comes Fred Bradley with five entries and then up and comer Dan Murray with three. The Cocker CH always has a strong AM entry but many (most?) of the dogs are pro trained somewhere along the road.
> 
> Our Rocky's littermate sister, Snicket is in there again (#48). There were only two pups left by the time we got there, Rocky and Snicket. She wasn't much to look at, small and roany colored. We wanted a male. Snicket finished her FC easily her first AA year and then placed in that years Nationals to boot.
> 
> Good Luck to all the dogs and handlers.
> 
> NB


Yes Mrs. D "volunteered" us to be in charge of shagging. So we will be there for the entire trial. Snicket is a very fine dog that we have seen a few times. We'll have to see if we can pick up any trialing tips for the next time we dip our toes in the pool. I'll see what kind of cell service we get, maybe I can keep the SC updated. Paul French probably won't let me video though:lol:


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Yes Mrs. D "volunteered" us to be in charge of shagging. So we will be there for the entire trial. Snicket is a very fine dog that we have seen a few times. We'll have to see if we can pick up any trialing tips for the next time we dip our toes in the pool. I'll see what kind of cell service we get, maybe I can keep the SC updated. Paul French probably won't let me video though:lol:


Steve, good on you and Mrs D. Lots of helpers are needed to keep these trials running smoothly and on schedule. Plus, you have the "best seats" in the house, save the judges.

Its a good entry in the NCC and gets more competitive very year. Hope you get some hunting in, either going or coming back, preferably both!

NB


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Yes Mrs. D "volunteered" us to be in charge of shagging. So we will be there for the entire trial. Snicket is a very fine dog that we have seen a few times. We'll have to see if we can pick up any trialing tips for the next time we dip our toes in the pool. I'll see what kind of cell service we get, maybe I can keep the SC updated. Paul French probably won't let me video though:lol:


I have first-hand knowledge of the Daubers shagging skills. No wonder they're in high demand. 

Hope you both have a great time at the trial and also hunting. Looking forward to your reports.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

JAM said:


> Doug, The video is very cool. I know what's going on but I can't see Brandy or the bird. I tried to see it in full screen but it's too pixelated. :sad:


I shot it in 720HD you have to put it to full screen and change the video to 720 or 1080 using the controls on the bottom right. The original video looks great but have to convert it for youtube and its not so great still trying to find another place to post videos that won't mutilate it.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I shot it in 720HD you have to put it to full screen and change the video to 720 or 1080 using the controls on the bottom right. The original video looks great but have to convert it for youtube and its not so great still trying to find another place to post videos that won't mutilate it.


 
+1 I agree that quality changes in the upload to youtube. These short clips seem to view just great on the desktop...there seems to be something lost in the translation.
In changing the controls at bottom right to 720 or 1080, I could not see any discernible difference.

This clip is filmed at 1080 but youtube shows it at 320..





This montage is made up of 7-8 clips I wanted to see how much change in quality during the editing process.
It was done 10/19 under rainy conditions.


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## gundogguy

Karen Balinsky's Ch Mai Tai has now completed requirements for title!

Tai is her 2nd generation Master Hunter Ch Paige MH was her first and the mother Ch Mai Tai MH


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Karen Balinsky's Ch Mai Tai has now completed requirements for title!
> 
> Tai is her 2nd generation Master Hunter Ch Paige MH was her first and the mother Ch Mai Tai MH


Way to go Karen!! 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Karen Balinsky's Ch Mai Tai has now completed requirements for title!
> 
> Tai is her 2nd generation Master Hunter Ch Paige MH was her first and the mother Ch Mai Tai MH


Congrats Karen & Mai Tai. AWESOME!


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## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> I shot it in 720HD you have to put it to full screen and change the video to 720 or 1080 using the controls on the bottom right. The original video looks great but have to convert it for youtube and its not so great still trying to find another place to post videos that won't mutilate it.


Still no luck. Tried a few different quality settings but none worked well enough to see Brandy or the bird. It's still very nice. 

Just wondering... What video camera are you using? I bought some very cheap video sunglasses and the video is so herky-jerky and poor quality that the video is useless. It stands to reason $20 video glasses wouldn't have very good resolution.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

JAM said:


> Still no luck. Tried a few different quality settings but none worked well enough to see Brandy or the bird. It's still very nice.
> 
> Just wondering... What video camera are you using? I bought some very cheap video sunglasses and the video is so herky-jerky and poor quality that the video is useless. It stands to reason $20 video glasses wouldn't have very good resolution.


 
Shot that with a Gopro Hero 3 HD. I went out today and with my old video sun glasses and the Gopro going to compare the video. Going to take the video of Brandy and take some stills from it and post them. Have to get some work done for clients first. So maybe later today.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

A Cast and Blast Trip is always a good time, IF you can pull it off. My son CW drove up from AA and his BFF MD flew in from California Friday night.

Saturday was the Cast day. CW and MD met at U of M band camp and have hunted and fished all over the country several times since. I had set them up with a top guide from TC; FF only. Despite the forecast, they floated the Big Man mostly rain free. Both landed steelies, with Marshall's 15# buck being the top fish of the day. That pic is worthy of an Orvis cover and I'll try to get it off of his phone.

I was enlisted as Grouse Mobile driver, Guide and Dog Handler on Sunday. MD had a noon flight. I loaned MD my Beretta O/U and did not carry a gun, this was the boy's hunt. We had a bit of a drive to the chosen covers and I hoped there would still be birds. I put both members of Team Pocket Rocket on the ground together, this was a take no prisoners deal. They are a handful down together, but nothing was passed either. We saw only one grouse which flushed far ahead. The team flushed 9-10 timber doodles and five were brought to hand before it was time to head for the airport. MD made the flight and got back to the land of fruits and nuts late Sunday night. 

I made one pic to record the day's hunt.










NB


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> A Cast and Blast Trip is always a good time, IF you can pull it off. My son CW drove up from AA and his BFF MD flew in from California Friday night.
> 
> Saturday was the Cast day. CW and MD met at U of M band camp and have hunted and fished all over the country several times since. I had set them up with a top guide from TC; FF only. Despite the forecast, they floated the Big Man mostly rain free. Both landed steelies, with Marshall's 15# buck being the top fish of the day. That pic is worthy of an Orvis cover and I'll try to get it off of his phone.
> 
> I was enlisted as Grouse Mobile driver, Guide and Dog Handler on Sunday. MD had a noon flight. I loaned MD my Beretta O/U and did not carry a gun, this was the boy's hunt. We had a bit of a drive to the chosen covers and I hoped there would still be birds. I put both members of Team Pocket Rocket on the ground together, this was a take no prisoners deal. They are a handful down together, but nothing was passed either. We saw only one grouse which flushed far ahead. The team flushed 9-10 timber doodles and five were brought to hand before it was time to head for the airport. MD made the flight and got back to the land of fruits and nuts late Sunday night.
> 
> I made one pic to record the day's hunt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB


Great story and picture to keep the memories fresh. Glad the boys and pups had a good time.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Shot that with a Gopro Hero 3 HD. I went out today and with my old video sun glasses and the Gopro going to compare the video. Going to take the video of Brandy and take some stills from it and post them. Have to get some work done for clients first. So maybe later today.


That'll be great, Doug. It occurred to me that maybe I should change the video quality when I play back the videos I took an see if there's an improvement in how it looks. Thanks so much for the tip!


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> A Cast and Blast Trip is always a good time, IF you can pull it off. My son CW drove up from AA and his BFF MD flew in from California Friday night.
> 
> Saturday was the Cast day. CW and MD met at U of M band camp and have hunted and fished all over the country several times since. I had set them up with a top guide from TC; FF only. Despite the forecast, they floated the Big Man mostly rain free. Both landed steelies, with Marshall's 15# buck being the top fish of the day. That pic is worthy of an Orvis cover and I'll try to get it off of his phone.
> 
> I was enlisted as Grouse Mobile driver, Guide and Dog Handler on Sunday. MD had a noon flight. I loaned MD my Beretta O/U and did not carry a gun, this was the boy's hunt. We had a bit of a drive to the chosen covers and I hoped there would still be birds. I put both members of Team Pocket Rocket on the ground together, this was a take no prisoners deal. They are a handful down together, but nothing was passed either. We saw only one grouse which flushed far ahead. The team flushed 9-10 timber doodles and five were brought to hand before it was time to head for the airport. MD made the flight and got back to the land of fruits and nuts late Sunday night.
> 
> I made one pic to record the day's hunt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB


Very nice team NB! Nice story. 

We are on the road to the Nationals.


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> A Cast and Blast Trip is always a good time, IF you can pull it off. My son CW drove up from AA and his BFF MD flew in from California Friday night.
> 
> Saturday was the Cast day. CW and MD met at U of M band camp and have hunted and fished all over the country several times since. I had set them up with a top guide from TC; FF only. Despite the forecast, they floated the Big Man mostly rain free. Both landed steelies, with Marshall's 15# buck being the top fish of the day. That pic is worthy of an Orvis cover and I'll try to get it off of his phone.
> 
> I was enlisted as Grouse Mobile driver, Guide and Dog Handler on Sunday. MD had a noon flight. I loaned MD my Beretta O/U and did not carry a gun, this was the boy's hunt. We had a bit of a drive to the chosen covers and I hoped there would still be birds. I put both members of Team Pocket Rocket on the ground together, this was a take no prisoners deal. They are a handful down together, but nothing was passed either. We saw only one grouse which flushed far ahead. The team flushed 9-10 timber doodles and five were brought to hand before it was time to head for the airport. MD made the flight and got back to the land of fruits and nuts late Sunday night.
> 
> I made one pic to record the day's hunt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB


Nice picture for sure, thanks for sharing. NB. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Well the stills didn't come out that great the original video is 12mb I can e-mail it in its original form if you pm. I was just trying to show some of the strategy I use when grouse hunting alone. Often times as you all know the birds flush away from you. But there are little things you can do to increase your odds of being in the right place when the birds flush. Like hunting down wind, placing yourself between covers or escape routes. When hunting the side of a hill in the woods use a quartering wind with the wind coming up the hill instead of down. So the bird is flushed down hill giving you longer time to shoot and a safer angle for the dog.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Hey Hal don't follow that YouTube channel its my son's channel no telling what he is looking at on the web. Probably nude video from his girl friend again.:yikes: Imagine my surprise when I saw that video. 

If I get the video thing working I will setup my own YouTube account. LOL

Best to watch this in full screen at 720p. No its only Grouse porn.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Hey Hal don't follow that YouTube channel its my son's channel no telling what he is looking at on the web. Probably nude video from his girl friend again.:yikes: Imagine my surprise when I saw that video.
> 
> If I get the video thing working I will setup my own YouTube account. LOL
> 
> Best to watch this in full screen at 720p. No its only Grouse porn.
> 
> http://youtu.be/OQxIwLOvHpA


This one is much easier to see the bird being shot and falling. 

Nice job, Team Brandy!


----------



## dauber

Next years NFC's Judges in PA are Jim O'Shea and Rumi Schroeder. 

The Bixby award winner was Tawny Crawford who also has a nice dog True in the 5th.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> View attachment 48592
> View attachment 48593
> View attachment 48594
> 
> 
> What a great day today! Beautiful western plains day, some outstanding finds, lots of runners taken off course mostly productive, and some monster long retrieves. The cover is fantastic, talked with 3 guys who hunt this property often and they say it is some of the best around.
> 
> 27 dogs made the 4th. I followed judge Knibbs and he had most dogs take at least 4 birds and some as many as 6! The 4th was completed and their are 13 coming back for the 5th. Paul M has 3 coming back. Nobody else has more than 1. The top. 2 from last year are back, Cairo and Bueler. Tom Ness has Bonie, Dan Murray has Emma, AR Ginn has Tillie. Al Defalco has Danny, and the dog to watch in my opinion is Dave Williams Pearl. Kim Wiley has Cedric coming back too.
> 
> The 5th will be 12 flags in the woods.
> 
> Marty Knibbs has really gotten into the video thing...they will have lots of editing to do. He sure is having a good time.
> 
> You'll have to. Check field cockers tomorrow for the placements since we will be heading to our next camping destination and hopefully getting in an afternoon hunt.


Thank you so much for the great report and pictures again. I'll be watching for the placements.

Have a safe trip to your next spot. Hope to hear some hunting reports from you soon.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Thank you so much for the great report and pictures again. I'll be watching for the placements.
> 
> Have a safe trip to your next spot. Hope to hear some hunting reports from you soon.


Joe Demarkis got a couple roosters this afternoon after Beetle bombed in the 3rd. If we get cell service we'll keep ya posted.


----------



## yooperguy

Good stuff Steve. Hope you guys are well. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Good stuff Steve. Hope you guys are well.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


We are outstanding YG! Today will be one more great day, we just need to take advantage of it. Hope you, your family and Belle are well.


----------



## dauber

The fifth is complete. We didn't stay for callbacks but I would say 9 might be going on to 6th. The woods were tough for the guns. The dogs had at least 4 contacts and Cairo had 8. The judges wanted to see what the dogs mental makeup was like. My favorites are Ty and Pearl with Cairo up there too.




















Congrats to all who complete the trial and the place winners. Off to hunt.


----------



## dauber

Made it to a camping spot and as is our tradition the oldest dog gets first hunt. Dante made some nice finds and retrieved these for Karen.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> View attachment 48690
> 
> 
> Made it to a camping spot and as is our tradition the oldest dog gets first hunt. Dante made some nice finds and retrieved these for Karen.


Congrats Dante and Karen! Nice!!

That 5th Series woods looks pretty gnarly. Must have been tough to see the dogs work let alone trying to shoot anything in there.

Good luck hunting!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Congrats Dante and Karen! Nice!!
> 
> That 5th Series woods looks pretty gnarly. Must have been tough to see the dogs work let alone trying to shoot anything in there.
> 
> Good luck hunting!


Yes poor viewing for the gallery. The dogs loved it as did the birds. They ran all over in there. The gallery walked behind the left gun.


----------



## dauber

Placements
1st and Guns Pearl Dave Williams, 2nd Bentley Ralph Mowder, 3rd Ty Paul McGagh, 4th Snickett Paul McGagh

Pearl had a great trial, made good finds in all kinds of weather and wind, and made all retrieves with no handling. A very well deserved NFC. 

I didn't see Bentley run much but he had a real nice 5th. Ty had a good trial, I bet Ron Hall Ty 's owner is still smiling since he was so happy to finish a National. Rumi had trouble keeping Bueller in range in the 5th otherwise she may have been in the placements. 

It was very fun and educational seeing all 5 series. 

Now to make plans for tomorrow's hunt.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> View attachment 48690
> 
> 
> Made it to a camping spot and as is our tradition the oldest dog gets first hunt. Dante made some nice finds and retrieved these for Karen.


Nice pic of Karen, your old guy and some roosters. GLAD to see there are some birds still around Out West. Reports from the field were all doom and gloom.

NB

PS. We leave in 8 days but who's counting.


----------



## dauber

CMs were; Pete (McGagh)
Cairo (Strohl) Bueller (Schroeder) Tillie (Ginn)

All dogs that didn't get a chance at a big retrieve in the 5th.


----------



## gundogguy

For being our eyes and ears on the scene of the 2013 Cocker National Champs.
By other accounts it looks like your finding the big gaudy sabre tails quite well. 
You and friends and of course the dogs are having a blast.
Have fun!


----------



## dauber

Yup we have been having good luck so far with the gaudy birds. 

The short story here was Smoke had just took this young lady 'a husband for a 100yd track into the middle of a field only to put up a hen. Then they both came back to our beat where Smoke promptly took another runner the opposite way with this young lady producing this old long soured rooster. She dropped it at about 40yds and it took off on a run. Smoke then took the cripple 30-40 yards and made the retrieve minus tail feathers that were shed with his first grab. 

So far we have been working quite a few birds most places.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> View attachment 48869
> 
> 
> Yup we have been having good luck so far with the gaudy birds.
> 
> The short story here was Smoke had just took this young lady 'a husband for a 100yd track into the middle of a field only to put up a hen. Then they both came back to our beat where Smoke promptly took another runner the opposite way with this young lady producing this old long soured rooster. She dropped it at about 40yds and it took off on a run. Smoke then took the cripple 30-40 yards and made the retrieve minus tail feathers that were shed with his first grab.
> 
> So far we have been working quite a few birds most places.


Nice job, Smoke! Nice shot, Smoke's helper! Love the picture, too. 

Glad you're having a good time.


----------



## gundogguy

to make a retrieve. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyY-bhlzJDE"]reese 10 27 - YouTube[/ame]

Talk about factors on marked retrieve!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Almost as big as mom


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> I'm with Brandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://i399.
> 
> Hal [B]what would be nice in the Northern lower is just a spaniel training club need not be tied to AKC. I know there are spaniel owners that just want to train their dogs better but have no interest in trials or even hunt test. [/B]
> 
> Well lets see how this works out. That is great Doug, a spaniel training group that has no affiliations with a breed organization. Especially AKC.
> UKC? Continental Kennel Club? FCI?
> How many folks would be interested in such a training group?
> What standards of behaviors would be the focal point of the training groups?
> 
> Spaniel field trial clubs usually donot have a lot of all breed training, such as retriever or pointer, Would all breed be encouraged? Or would this training group be breed specific?
> Who would be in charge of the location or grounds? Are training birds going to be individuals responsibility or communal? what about liability? Who's is it and who provides the insurance?
> 
> These are just some of the questions I had to answer 25 years ago when I formed my training group program. My training group is not affiliated with AKC or UKC OR CKC or any Spaniel training club. I'm a member of The GLESSFTA but my Training Class is not part of that club's functions or periodic training program.
> My training classes were formed as a for profit activity. Most Dogs are Non-Profit. Profit is the grease that makes the program go!
> 
> If there is any thing I can do to assist you in starting a program in the great Northern third of the State do not hesitate to contact.[/quote]
> 
> Hal I missed this I am not here every day sorry,
> 
> I think people have to derive their own standards and train to those standards. This would be a club where anyone running an upland flushing dog would be welcomed. Some of the members may just want to hunt some may want to do other things like test or trial. Again they would have to figure out what standards they want to apply to their training. I see it no different when I go to retriever training. Some of the guys never run a trial or test they come to train to standards they are happy with. Many never require their dogs to run multiple marks or maybe they are happy with doubles instead of triples.
> 
> Training grounds are not hard to come by. I have access to several that are fully insured they just require people to sign a waver. Purchase of birds would have to be the responsibility of the individual. Access to birds is not a problem Either. I sell my birds to training partners all the time.
> 
> I have several training groups I go to where I don't pay a dime unless I purchasing ducks or some other type of birds.
Click to expand...


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> to make a retrieve.
> 
> reese 10 27 - YouTube
> 
> Talk about factors on marked retrieve!


Good clip, Hal. That brought a smile.

That little Cocker sure has a whole lot of "want to". Typical for a well bred FBEC IME.

NB


----------



## michgundog

Hold those spaniels close tonight!!

RIP "Indy" you'll be missed!!

Connemara's Indiana Sunrise JH

8/2/2003----10/28/2013









Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Almost as big as mom


Pups are looking' GOOD, Doug! Nice pics!


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> Hold those spaniels close tonight!!
> 
> RIP "Indy" you'll be missed!!
> 
> Connemara's Indiana Sunrise JH
> 
> 8/2/2003----10/28/2013
> View attachment 48946
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


So sorry. RIP Indy!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> Hold those spaniels close tonight!!
> 
> RIP "Indy" you'll be missed!!
> 
> Connemara's Indiana Sunrise JH
> 
> 8/2/2003----10/28/2013
> View attachment 48946
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Sorry to Hear, Mike. Condolences to you and yours.

Hunt 'em up, INDY!

NB


----------



## yooperguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Almost as big as mom


Beautiful pups!



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> Hold those spaniels close tonight!!
> 
> RIP "Indy" you'll be missed!!
> 
> Connemara's Indiana Sunrise JH
> 
> 8/2/2003----10/28/2013
> View attachment 48946
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Very sorry to hear. RIP Indy. 



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## Hunting with Drake

I'm with Brandy said:


> Almost as big as mom


Great looking pups!!!


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Sorry to Hear, Mike. Condolences to you and yours.
> 
> Hunt 'em up, INDY!
> 
> NB


RIP Indy!


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> gundogguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hal I missed this I am not here every day sorry,
> 
> I think people have to derive their own standards and train to those standards. This would be a club where anyone running an upland flushing dog would be welcomed. Some of the members may just want to hunt some may want to do other things like test or trial. Again they would have to figure out what standards they want to apply to their training. I see it no different when I go to retriever training. Some of the guys never run a trial or test they come to train to standards they are happy with. Many never require their dogs to run multiple marks or maybe they are happy with doubles instead of triples.
> 
> Training grounds are not hard to come by. I have access to several that are fully insured they just require people to sign a waver. Purchase of birds would have to be the responsibility of the individual. Access to birds is not a problem Either. I sell my birds to training partners all the time.
> 
> I have several training groups I go to where I don't pay a dime unless I purchasing ducks or some other type of birds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No apology needed! I'm quite aware that every one has a schedule!
> 
> If I understand you correctly you seemed to have the mechanic's of a flushing dog training club covered. Go for it!
> The Northern third of the state could use some organizing influence, in the flushing dog world
Click to expand...


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> RIP Indy!


Thank you, all for your thoughtful replies and quotes. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## sgc

Mike,
Sorry about Indy. I loved his style of hunt; he was my favorite.
Stan


----------



## michgundog

sgc said:


> Mike,
> Sorry about Indy. I loved his style of hunt; he was my favorite.
> Stan


Thank you, Stan, he was a good boy for sure. How is Jack doing? 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Hunting with Drake

gundogguy said:


> I'm with Brandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No apology needed! I'm quite aware that every one has a schedule!
> 
> If I understand you correctly you seemed to have the mechanic's of a flushing dog training club covered. Go for it!
> The Northern third of the state could use some organizing influence, in the flushing dog world
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.....a northern spaniel club
Click to expand...


----------



## michgundog

Hunting with Drake said:


> gundogguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.....a northern spaniel club
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a good idea .
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Click to expand...


----------



## michgundog

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=26140&cat=16

Thank you, all for your inquiries. These pups are all sold. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## sgc

Mike, I pm'd you.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

michgundog said:


> Hold those spaniels close tonight!!
> 
> RIP "Indy" you'll be missed!!
> 
> Connemara's Indiana Sunrise JH
> 
> 8/2/2003----10/28/2013
> View attachment 48946
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Sorry Nike, they don't stay with us long enough.


----------



## gundogguy

Memorial service will be held to day for Kerrie Barnes.
Kerrie passed away last Thursday upon returning from obedience training class

Kerrie a member of the Heart Of Michigan Cocker club was quite active in 
within the sport. She was an experienced Field trial chairperson and a well organized an efficient Field Marshal.
Her greatest thrill came when she had a chance to run her dog in trial. she was also active in the spaniel hunt test program titling a few of her Y-Knot Cockers. Kerrie had been a training partner for the last 6 years. She is and will be missed by all that knew her!



short clip of Kerrie and her Maya dog


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Memorial service will be held to day for Kerrie Barnes.
> Kerrie passed away last Thursday upon returning from obedience training class
> 
> Kerrie a member of the Heart Of Michigan Cocker club was quite active in
> within the sport. She was an experienced Field trial chairperson and a well organized an efficient Field Marshal.
> Her greatest thrill came when she had a chance to run her dog in trial. she was also active in the spaniel hunt test program titling a few of her Y-Knot Cockers. Kerrie had been a training partner for the last 6 years. She is and will be missed by all that knew her!
> 
> 
> Kerri will be missed. Her and her husband camped by us for many years at Highland for the trial. We shared many evenings talking dogs. Our lives are better having known her.


----------



## JAM

So sorry to hear of your friend Kerri's passing. May she rest in peace.


----------



## Jim58

Rest in peace Kerri.

Sent from my XT907 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> So sorry to hear of your friend Kerri's passing. May she rest in peace.


+1


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

We are still finding a few birds and the dogs are working well. Again the good summer of training yields success in the fall. 

We have been giving Zac a 20 minute training/hunt each day. If he would flush a rooster and he does what he is supposed to we will shoot it. So far he has had all hen flushes. Today he had a great leaping flush and sit on the flush after a short track. This has been very good for him to do the quartering, tracking and flush in the western prairie with no shooting so far. He has been steady on 8 or so hens up to now. 

Now to finish another pheasant supper.


----------



## yooperguy

Way to go Zac!

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----------



## Duece22

gundogguy said:


> to make a retrieve.
> 
> reese 10 27 - YouTube
> 
> Talk about factors on marked retrieve!


What are the "factors" on this retrieve? 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> View attachment 49167
> 
> 
> View attachment 49168
> 
> 
> We are still finding a few birds and the dogs are working well. Again the good summer of training yields success in the fall.
> 
> We have been giving Zac a 20 minute training/hunt each day. If he would flush a rooster and he does what he is supposed to we will shoot it. So far he has had all hen flushes. Today he had a great leaping flush and sit on the flush after a short track. This has been very good for him to do the quartering, tracking and flush in the western prairie with no shooting so far. He has been steady on 8 or so hens up to now.
> 
> Now to finish another pheasant supper.


Looking Good, Team Dauber!

The training your young Zackster is getting on all wild birds on the prairies will prove invaluable down the road. Great stuff.

LUV the pics of the wide open spaces and the green machines. We leave for Dakota Territories in four days, but who's counting.  Lots of loose ends to tie up before hitting the road.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

Duece22 said:


> What are the "factors" on this retrieve?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


3 cover changes and ...electro braid fence!


----------



## gundogguy

This photo is of the placers in a minor breed trial that recently took place in the UK.
The trial was held by the Working Clumber society.
This is exactly what the Spaniel hunt test program should morph into for the minor breeds. In the beginning that was some of the driving idea behind the test program.
Breeds placing Clumber, Field Spaniel, and Welch Springing Spaniel!
Nice to see the ladies so active in the UK sporting life!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> View attachment 49167
> 
> 
> View attachment 49168
> 
> 
> We are still finding a few birds and the dogs are working well. Again the good summer of training yields success in the fall.
> 
> We have been giving Zac a 20 minute training/hunt each day. If he would flush a rooster and he does what he is supposed to we will shoot it. So far he has had all hen flushes. Today he had a great leaping flush and sit on the flush after a short track. This has been very good for him to do the quartering, tracking and flush in the western prairie with no shooting so far. He has been steady on 8 or so hens up to now.
> 
> Now to finish another pheasant supper.


Nice job, Zac! I hope he gets a rooster and the retrieve after all those hen flushes. He sure earned it!

Thanks again for the great report and pics. Keep 'em coming!


----------



## michgundog

Finn being "consistent", way to change a bad week!!










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----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> Finn being "consistent", way to change a bad week!!
> 
> View attachment 49212
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Beautiful pic! Nice job, Finn!


----------



## JAM

The boys and I had a little pheasant farm fun last Tuesday. Here are a few pics after the hunt.


----------



## dauber

Nice job Finn. 

Nice job team JAM!

Good pics ya all.


----------



## The Doob

We haven't had as much success this fall on the wild ones as most of the farmers that have granted me permission to hunt chose 2013 to mow their filter strips.

Yesterday, my son got an invite to hunt a large, private grass field that generally holds a few birds. A two man limit was had with multiple other flushes of birds/roosters (note: now that the crops are off in the area, this field is the last remaining cover).

http://www.**************/albums/Dale-Stevenson/FOT68B7.jpg

All reports indicate that Sully performed very well. There is no fourth bird in the picture as my son is getting that one mounted.


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> LUV the pics of the wide open spaces and the green machines. We leave for Dakota Territories in four days, but who's counting.  Lots of loose ends to tie up before hitting the road.
> 
> NB


Good luck NB in the open country!! It certainly is fun being out here seeing the sights watching the dogs and eating a few birds. 

Safe travels!


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> The boys and I had a little pheasant farm fun last Tuesday. Here are a few pics after the hunt.


Great pics JAM!!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## michgundog

The Doob said:


> We haven't had as much success this fall on the wild ones as most of the farmers that have granted me permission to hunt chose 2013 to mow their filter strips.
> 
> Yesterday, my son got an invite to hunt a large, private grass field that generally holds a few birds. A two man limit was had with multiple other flushes of birds/roosters (note: now that the crops are off in the area, this field is the last remaining cover).
> 
> http://www.**************/albums/Dale-Stevenson/FOT68B7.jpg
> 
> All reports indicate that Sully performed very well. There is no fourth bird in the picture as my son is getting that one mounted.


Great report Dale!! It's a bummer to lose good spots. I had several that are no longer and will never come back. 


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----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> The boys and I had a little pheasant farm fun last Tuesday. Here are a few pics after the hunt.


Nice pics JAM. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

The Doob said:


> We haven't had as much success this fall on the wild ones as most of the farmers that have granted me permission to hunt chose 2013 to mow their filter strips.
> 
> Yesterday, my son got an invite to hunt a large, private grass field that generally holds a few birds. A two man limit was had with multiple other flushes of birds/roosters (note: now that the crops are off in the area, this field is the last remaining cover).
> 
> http://www.**************/albums/Dale-Stevenson/FOT68B7.jpg
> 
> All reports indicate that Sully performed very well. There is no fourth bird in the picture as my son is getting that one mounted.


WOW! Nice job, Doob and Sully. Who says there are no pheasants in Michigan? They must not know about spaniels.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> WOW! Nice job, Doob and Sully. Who says there are no pheasants in Michigan? They must not know about spaniels.


+1. Nice job Sully.


----------



## dauber

Here are little Zac's first two wild birds. He is 14 months old now. 

As mentioned a few posts ago we have been working Zac for 20 minutes or so a day without shooting. He had 8 days of that and yesterday it was a piece of cake for him or as gundogguy says he was becoming underwhelmed. So today I told Karen after his first really nice hen flush to go ahead and shoot the next roster. Didn't take too long and he made a 40-50yd track and nice flush with Karen dropping it down a 30 foot slope. He made a very nice 60 yd mark and delivered to hand. I told her to hold off on the next one, and he flushed another hen nicely with sharp hup. So on our way back I told Karen to go ahead and shoot another if he got one up. Low and behold he took off on a track and produced another rooster on the edge of a cliff. Karen dropped it down the cliff and I sent him. When he got close to the fall he flushed a hen, sat and after I released him continued to get on the track of the cripple and bring it back up to hand. 

It was quite rewarding to see h put all the summer and fall lessons together. It certainly has been worth being patient with his development. We are going to wait a few days before shooting over him again to make sure his control and steadiness is sound. It has been good experience for him out here.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> View attachment 49305
> 
> 
> Here are little Zac's first two wild birds. He is 14 months old now.
> 
> As mentioned a few posts ago we have been working Zac for 20 minutes or so a day without shooting. He had 8 days of that and yesterday it was a piece of cake for him or as gundogguy says he was becoming underwhelmed. So today I told Karen after his first really nice hen flush to go ahead and shoot the next roster. Didn't take too long and he made a 40-50yd track and nice flush with Karen dropping it down a 30 foot slope. He made a very nice 60 yd mark and delivered to hand. I told her to hold off on the next one, and he flushed another hen nicely with sharp hup. So on our way back I told Karen to go ahead and shoot another if he got one up. Low and behold he took off on a track and produced another rooster on the edge of a cliff. Karen dropped it down the cliff and I sent him. When he got close to the fall he flushed a hen, sat and after I released him continued to get on the track of the cripple and bring it back up to hand.
> 
> It was quite rewarding to see h put all the summer and fall lessons together. It certainly has been worth being patient with his development. We are going to wait a few days before shooting over him again to make sure his control and steadiness is sound. It has been good experience for him out here.


Way to go Steve, Karen and Zac!!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> View attachment 49305
> 
> 
> Here are little Zac's first two wild birds. He is 14 months old now.
> 
> As mentioned a few posts ago we have been working Zac for 20 minutes or so a day without shooting. He had 8 days of that and yesterday it was a piece of cake for him or as gundogguy says he was becoming underwhelmed. So today I told Karen after his first really nice hen flush to go ahead and shoot the next roster. Didn't take too long and he made a 40-50yd track and nice flush with Karen dropping it down a 30 foot slope. He made a very nice 60 yd mark and delivered to hand. I told her to hold off on the next one, and he flushed another hen nicely with sharp hup. So on our way back I told Karen to go ahead and shoot another if he got one up. Low and behold he took off on a track and produced another rooster on the edge of a cliff. Karen dropped it down the cliff and I sent him. When he got close to the fall he flushed a hen, sat and after I released him continued to get on the track of the cripple and bring it back up to hand.
> 
> It was quite rewarding to see h put all the summer and fall lessons together. It certainly has been worth being patient with his development. We are going to wait a few days before shooting over him again to make sure his control and steadiness is sound. It has been good experience for him out here.


Zac Strong!
"Train your dog the birds will come"
Dauber you are living proof that this old saying is just as true now as it was 100yrs ago when first uttered.
Congrats on a pup well done!
Amazing what a little place board training can accomplish!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zac Strong!
> "Train your dog the birds will come"
> Dauber you are living proof that this old saying is just as true now as it was 100yrs ago when first uttered.
> Congrats on a pup well done!
> Amazing what a little place board training can accomplish!


Thanks for your counsel along the way gundogguy. 
Yes place boards and literally over a hundred pigeons sure help make a gundog.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> View attachment 49305
> 
> 
> Here are little Zac's first two wild birds. He is 14 months old now.
> 
> As mentioned a few posts ago we have been working Zac for 20 minutes or so a day without shooting. He had 8 days of that and yesterday it was a piece of cake for him or as gundogguy says he was becoming underwhelmed. So today I told Karen after his first really nice hen flush to go ahead and shoot the next roster. Didn't take too long and he made a 40-50yd track and nice flush with Karen dropping it down a 30 foot slope. He made a very nice 60 yd mark and delivered to hand. I told her to hold off on the next one, and he flushed another hen nicely with sharp hup. So on our way back I told Karen to go ahead and shoot another if he got one up. Low and behold he took off on a track and produced another rooster on the edge of a cliff. Karen dropped it down the cliff and I sent him. When he got close to the fall he flushed a hen, sat and after I released him continued to get on the track of the cripple and bring it back up to hand.
> 
> It was quite rewarding to see h put all the summer and fall lessons together. It certainly has been worth being patient with his development. We are going to wait a few days before shooting over him again to make sure his control and steadiness is sound. It has been good experience for him out here.


^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^

LUVED the backstory and pics of the Zackster Out West. Sounded like quite a challenge for him on that second cockbird with the cliff, the hen flushing, etc, etc. I think the change of venue, different cover, different grounds, different birds, etc etc is a big challenge for a youngster and yr boy handled everything A-OK. Excellent.

GOOD WORK, TEAM DAUBER.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Thanks for your counsel along the way gundogguy.
> Yes place boards and literally over a hundred pigeons sure help make a gundog.


And your just getting started, Think of it, brace work teaching the Zac-ster to stay off the center line and not poach his brace mates finds or steal the brace mates retrieves,and polish those long distance marks. 
As a pup grows into being the complete steady dog marking can become a roller coaster ride. Think back in what you saw at the 3 day Michigan trial a large percentage of dogs had not fully developed marking abilities. And that was evident due to the excessive handling that took place that weekend. 
A dog has to have a chance to develop marking talents, and they cannot do that until they have been steadied to wing and shot. Other wise they are just chasing a bird down. They will never learn to mark chasing a bird down!
Zac is at a great stage being steadied by 14 months, he will be ready to grow into his training, just fine. 
Keep him on the track your almost there! More pigeons on the horizon!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> View attachment 49305
> 
> 
> Here are little Zac's first two wild birds. He is 14 months old now.
> 
> As mentioned a few posts ago we have been working Zac for 20 minutes or so a day without shooting. He had 8 days of that and yesterday it was a piece of cake for him or as gundogguy says he was becoming underwhelmed. So today I told Karen after his first really nice hen flush to go ahead and shoot the next roster. Didn't take too long and he made a 40-50yd track and nice flush with Karen dropping it down a 30 foot slope. He made a very nice 60 yd mark and delivered to hand. I told her to hold off on the next one, and he flushed another hen nicely with sharp hup. So on our way back I told Karen to go ahead and shoot another if he got one up. Low and behold he took off on a track and produced another rooster on the edge of a cliff. Karen dropped it down the cliff and I sent him. When he got close to the fall he flushed a hen, sat and after I released him continued to get on the track of the cripple and bring it back up to hand.
> 
> It was quite rewarding to see h put all the summer and fall lessons together. It certainly has been worth being patient with his development. We are going to wait a few days before shooting over him again to make sure his control and steadiness is sound. It has been good experience for him out here.


There are no other words to describe this than "AWESOME"! Having watched little Zac progress from his first bird contact last winter to this is just the icing on the cake. And what a beautiful picture to go along with a great hunt. 

You rock, Team Dauber!

Oh yeah... Nice shooting, Karen!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> There are no other words to describe this than "AWESOME"! Having watched little Zac progress from his first bird contact last winter to this is just the icing on the cake. And what a beautiful picture to go along with a great hunt.
> 
> You rock, Team Dauber!
> 
> Oh yeah... Nice shooting, Karen!


Thanks everyone. 

Special thanks to you JAM for all your help training all our guys and especially all your help with Zac.


----------



## yooperguy

Way to go Zac and gang!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> And your just getting started, Think of it, brace work teaching the Zac-ster to stay off the center line and not poach his brace mates finds or steal the brace mates retrieves,and polish those long distance marks.
> As a pup grows into being the complete steady dog marking can become a roller coaster ride. Think back in what you saw at the 3 day Michigan trial a large percentage of dogs had not fully developed marking abilities. And that was evident due to the excessive handling that took place that weekend.
> A dog has to have a chance to develop marking talents, and they cannot do that until they have been steadied to wing and shot. Other wise they are just chasing a bird down. They will never learn to mark chasing a bird down!
> Zac is at a great stage being steadied by 14 months, he will be ready to grow into his training, just fine.
> Keep him on the track your almost there! More pigeons on the horizon!


The retrieves are what surprised me yesterday. Before we left home Zac was really struggling with his retrieves. I think a week break and 8 days of just quartering and flushing helped him out. Thanks for the warning though. 

Our plan is to do the brace work next year and to really work on more difficult retrieves. 

He made a nice find with very poor scenting today on a dead rooster that some guys lost on the hill by camp yesterday. 

Yes many pigeons are in the plans for next year too.


----------



## JAM

Something that has really helped my boys find retrieves is florescent orange balls the size of tennis balls. I shoot them out of a "Hyperdog" slingshot thingy that puts them out there a good 50-60 yds. Since they're orange the dogs can't see them and have to use their noses. The nice thing is that I can see them from quite a distance and can watch them work.

Lots of fun!


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Something that has really helped my boys find retrieves is florescent orange balls the size of tennis balls. I shoot them out of a "Hyperdog" slingshot thingy that puts them out there a good 50-60 yds. Since they're orange the dogs *can't see them *and have to use their noses. The nice thing is that I can see them from quite a distance and can watch them work.
> 
> Lots of fun!


Jam, some time before the snows fly could you take a photograph of the set-up that you run your dogs in when using the Orange balls and Hyperdog. Thanks 

My plan to day weather permitting is to incorporate Winger Zingers into the quartering drills. The launchers being used to add an element to the marking exercise that you can not always get when relying on shot flyers.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Jam, some time before the snows fly could you take a photograph of the set-up that you run your dogs in when using the Orange balls and Hyperdog. Thanks
> 
> My plan to day weather permitting is to incorporate Winger Zingers into the quartering drills. The launchers being used to add an element to the marking exercise that you can not always get when relying on shot flyers.


Sure. I'll try to put some pics together tomorrow.

Here's a short description of what we do: My dogs have to "hup" next to me. I draw back on the "Hyperdog" thingy and let one fly. I send one of the dogs by its name with the other dog steady. Sometimes I'll fire another ball while the first dog is already on retrieve. That dog has to ignore the new ball and continue his retrieve. Sometimes I'll send the 2nd dog on the new ball while the 1st dog is still in the field. That, at times, backfires if the 1st dog hasn't found his ball and sees the new one come sailing in causing dog 1 to steal dog 2's retrieve. They will ignore the new ball if they've already found their ball. I also fire "grounders" that they're allowed to chase - just like a runner.

I have a Gunner's Up launcher which uses primers to simulate a shot. That setup would work a lot better with a helper. It's kind of time consuming when I'm by myself as I have to reload it over and over but does work quite well. The orange ball game is a lot faster and easier although no shot.


----------



## dauber

You never know when a water retrieve will be needed. I killed this rooster but it kept going for 150yds and dropped in the pool below this dam. Smoke made the blind retrieve across the rapids on the background and he had to pull it up from under water. This was the second retrieve of a double. He flushed 2 roosters with Karen dropping hers which he retrieved first. Then I walked h over to make the blind to make sure he didn't jump over the dam.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> View attachment 49542
> 
> 
> You never know when a water retrieve will be needed. I killed this rooster but it kept going for 150yds and dropped in the pool below this dam. Smoke made the blind retrieve across the rapids on the background and he had to pull it up from under water. This was the second retrieve of a double. He flushed 2 roosters with Karen dropping hers which he retrieved first. Then I walked h over to make the blind to make sure he didn't jump over the dam.


Sounds like quite an adventure you guys are having! 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Sounds like quite an adventure you guys are having!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Oh yea! That's just the hunting part. Smoke got his staples out yesterday from a cut on his leg. Plus it has been interesting keeping the camper going with the power converter crapping out. But we are still warm still finding birds if we walk enough each day.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> View attachment 49542
> 
> 
> You never know when a water retrieve will be needed. I killed this rooster but it kept going for 150yds and dropped in the pool below this dam. Smoke made the blind retrieve across the rapids on the background and he had to pull it up from under water. This was the second retrieve of a double. He flushed 2 roosters with Karen dropping hers which he retrieved first. Then I walked h over to make the blind to make sure he didn't jump over the dam.


Nice job, Smoke! The pups are getting some great training opportunities while have a great time. I doesn't get any better than that!

Too bad Smoke cut himself but glad he's on the mend.

Hope you'll keep warm for the rest of your adventure.

Hie on, Team Dauber!!


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Sure. I'll try to put some pics together tomorrow.
> 
> Here's a short description of what we do: My dogs have to "hup" next to me. I draw back on the "Hyperdog" thingy and let one fly. I send one of the dogs by its name with the other dog steady. Sometimes I'll fire another ball while the first dog is already on retrieve. That dog has to ignore the new ball and continue his retrieve. Sometimes I'll send the 2nd dog on the new ball while the 1st dog is still in the field. That, at times, backfires if the 1st dog hasn't found his ball and sees the new one come sailing in causing dog 1 to steal dog 2's retrieve. They will ignore the new ball if they've already found their ball. I also fire "grounders" that they're allowed to chase - just like a runner.
> 
> I have a Gunner's Up launcher which uses primers to simulate a shot. That setup would work a lot better with a helper. It's kind of time consuming when I'm by myself as I have to reload it over and over but does work quite well. The orange ball game is a lot faster and easier although no shot.


Thanks JAM.
Here is the results of a training session Tues afternoon. Zeta videos did not turn out well (Follow instructions and remove lens cap!!) Thought the Labradors' session worked out well. This a young HRCH Skye that we are re working and teaching some upland behaviors . Her ground game is a little sticky and she lacks fluidity, but she is improving. 
Use of the Gunner's up is coming in handy for reinforcing steadiness when she away from heal, She is a faultless maker in this drill.
Rememeber the upland dog is hardly ever at heal they must have the strength to be steady and mark some distance away from the handler.
weather will be very good for training and take vids today more to come on this.









dauber said:


> View attachment 49542
> 
> 
> You never know when a water retrieve will be needed. I killed this rooster but it kept going for 150yds and dropped in the pool below this dam. Smoke made the blind retrieve across the rapids on the background and he had to pull it up from under water. This was the second retrieve of a double. He flushed 2 roosters with Karen dropping hers which he retrieved first. Then I walked h over to make the blind to make sure he didn't jump over the dam.





dauber said:


> Oh yea! That's just the hunting part. Smoke got his staples out yesterday from a cut on his leg. Plus it has been interesting keeping the camper going with the power converter crapping out. But we are still warm still finding birds if we walk enough each day.


WHAT A GREAT ADVENTURE! Keep those cards and memo's flowing man!


----------



## JAM

Nice video GDG. I'm having trouble figuring out how to take pictures of me and the dogs doing the orange ball routines since I don't have a GoPro. 

One of the things I do with the dogs is have them quartering and fire the orange ball. The dog is expected to hup and mark the fall at the site of the ball in flight. That's sort of what you're doing with the launcher but nicer to have a real bird than an orange ball.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Thanks JAM.
> Here is the results of a training session Tues afternoon. Zeta videos did not turn out well (Follow instructions and remove lens cap!!) Thought the Labradors' session worked out well. This a young HRCH Skye that we are re working and teaching some upland behaviors . Her ground game is a little sticky and she lacks fluidity, but she is improving.
> Use of the Gunner's up is coming in handy for reinforcing steadiness when she away from heal, She is a faultless maker in this drill.
> Rememeber the upland dog is hardly ever at heal they must have the strength to be steady and mark some distance away from the handler.
> weather will be very good for training and take vids today more to come on this.
> skye 11 05 - YouTube
> 
> 
> WHAT A GREAT ADVENTURE! Keep those cards and memo's flowing man!


Nice video. I will have to try something like that. 

Today was another good day. Even old Dante had some of the fun. This rooster he tracked a long ways and pinned him on a steep drop and darn near caught him before I shot em.








Here is just a darn nice pic of Libby the lab who made a nice track on this rooster.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Nice video. I will have to try something like that.
> 
> Today was another good day. Even old Dante had some of the fun. This rooster he tracked a long ways and pinned him on a steep drop and darn near caught him before I shot em.
> View attachment 49577
> 
> 
> Here is just a darn nice pic of Libby the lab who made a nice track on this rooster.
> View attachment 49578


Great Dauber and Mrs. Dauber.. you are certainly living large.
Time is getting close for Natty Bumpo better save him a few!!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Great Dauber and Mrs. Dauber.. you are certainly living large.
> Time is getting close for Natty Bumpo better save him a few!!


Only one more day for us. We saved NB all of Zac's from today. He had a nice track today that I caught the end on video.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Only one more day for us. We saved NB all of Zac's from today. He had a nice track today that I caught the end on video.


Hope you wrap things up on a good note. Wishing you safe travels on your journey back home!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## Gavan

on Cabela's. There is a silver model and a black. Anybody have experience with them and should I go all the way and spend $399.00 or isn't it worth it?


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> on Cabela's. There is a silver model and a black. Anybody have experience with them and should I go all the way and spend $399.00 or isn't it worth it?


 
I cannot say anything about Go Pro prolly very versatile.
I have a Contour-Roam, simple, just right for a simple guy like me Under $200 with a few accessories
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=contour+roam

easy to use easy to upload or download to PC or You tube.


----------



## dauber

Tough day today with winds 45 mph and more along with rain. We still were able to get at least one for each of the dogs we hunted and Zac had a nice quartering lesson in very windy conditions. It has been a fun trip that started with the cocker Nationals and ended with some good hunts. Zac got some good experience working in many different types of cover and terrain. 

Now back to some grouse and training.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> View attachment 49625
> 
> 
> Tough day today with winds 45 mph and more along with rain. We still were able to get at least one for each of the dogs we hunted and Zac had a nice quartering lesson in very windy conditions. It has been a fin trip that started with the cocker Nationals and ended with some good hunts. Zac got some good experience working in many different types of cover and terrain.
> 
> Now back to some grouse and training.


Have a safe trip home. Glad you had such a great time.


----------



## yooperguy

Lordy Lordy... look who's... ONE!

It's been a year of adventure and learning. Belle, and I have trained, worked hard, met some nice people, and HAD A LOT OF FUN! Thanks to all of you who helped us along the way. We look forward to many more years of it! 

*HAPPY BIRTHDAY BELLE!*


----------



## michgundog

yooperguy2003 said:


> Lordy Lordy... look who's... ONE!
> 
> It's been a year of adventure and learning. Belle, and I have trained, worked hard, met some nice people, and HAD A LOT OF FUN! Thanks to all of you who helped us along the way. We look forward to many more years of it!
> 
> *HAPPY BIRTHDAY BELLE!*


Happy birthday to Belle!!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Lordy Lordy... look who's... ONE!
> 
> It's been a year of adventure and learning. Belle, and I have trained, worked hard, met some nice people, and HAD A LOT OF FUN! Thanks to all of you who helped us along the way. We look forward to many more years of it!
> 
> *HAPPY BIRTHDAY BELLE!*


Happy birthday Belle!! Give her a big pat from us.


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> Lordy Lordy... look who's... ONE!
> 
> It's been a year of adventure and learning. Belle, and I have trained, worked hard, met some nice people, and HAD A LOT OF FUN! Thanks to all of you who helped us along the way. We look forward to many more years of it!
> 
> *HAPPY BIRTHDAY BELLE!*


HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BEAUTIFUL BELLE! 

Great picture, YG!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> I cannot say anything about Go Pro prolly very versatile.
> I have a Contour-Roam, simple, just right for a simple guy like me Under $200 with a few accessories
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=contour+roam
> 
> easy to use easy to upload or download to PC or You tube.


GDG, I ordered a Contour Roam2 at your suggestion. I went through eBay. It's $139 for the camera and I ordered a box with a few mount choices including the hat mount for another $26.??. Hope it gets here in time to get a few orange ball routines before the snow sticks. We've already had flurries.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> GDG, I ordered a Contour Roam2 at your suggestion. I went through eBay. It's $139 for the camera and I ordered a box with a few mount choices including the hat mount for another $26.??. Hope it gets here in time to get a few orange ball routines before the snow sticks. We've already had flurries.


The snowbanks here at the Ironwood Walmart are taller than me!' 

Hope you get it quick so you can video the next training.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> GDG, I ordered a Contour Roam2 at your suggestion. I went through eBay. It's $139 for the camera and I ordered a box with a few mount choices including the hat mount for another $26.??. Hope it gets here in time to get a few orange ball routines before the snow sticks. We've already had flurries.


Let me know Jam if you run into any stumps with operation or PC quirks 
I'll make a video and send it along. You have it by Tuesday!



dauber said:


> The snowbanks here at the Ironwood Walmart are taller than me!'
> 
> Hope you get it quick so you can video the next training.


It only counts if you have pics. How you gonna train with 5 ft drifts.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> It only counts if you have pics. How you gonna train with 5 ft drifts.











Tough for pics in the dark. 

Just train between the drifts.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> View attachment 49771
> 
> 
> tough for pics in the dark.
> 
> Just train between the drifts.


yikes!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> View attachment 49771
> 
> 
> Tough for pics in the dark.
> 
> Just train between the drifts.


And here all along I thought all Zac had this awesome nose. Now we know he also has laser eyes. 

YUCK! Hope that stuff stays in Ironwood for a while. Talked to a guy from Ishpeming Friday and he said there was a dusting of snow on the ground there.

See ya soon.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Let me know Jam if you run into any stumps with operation or PC quirks. I'll make a video and send it along. You have it by Tuesday!


Thanks, GDG. I read on Amazon's web page that the Contour Roam is being discontinued and so is the support, warranty, etc. which made me a little hesitate to order but the price was right compared to the GoPro. It seems I never have anything go to pieces before the warranty's up anyway so went for it.

Thanks again!

~Jill


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> View attachment 49771
> 
> 
> Tough for pics in the dark.
> 
> Just train between the drifts.


:lol::lol::lol::lol: Yous guys are so screwed!!!!:yikes::yikes::yikes:

Send me a pedigree. I want to see where those eyes come!


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Thanks, GDG. I read on Amazon's web page that the Contour Roam is being discontinued *and so is the support, warranty, etc. which made me a little hesitate to order but the price was right compared to the GoPro. It seems I never have anything go to *pieces before the warranty's up anyway so went for it.
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> ~Jill


I'm aware of that! But at that price it's a throw away. How many Television repair men do know. If your TV goes on the blink you pitch it and replace it.
Even If I only get 6 months out of mine I'll get my $200 worth of enjoyment. And the way Tech is changing the new "best" thing will be on the market before we know it! 
I cannot wait to see your spaniels and you in action living the sporting life. 
By the way have you heard who won Southern Wisc. ?
hal


----------



## dauber

After spending 6 weeks of the last seven weeks in the camper it was nice to be home last night. 

Here is a short vid I took with my phone of the very end of a track Zac had November 7th. It finally hit me the second to last day I could try to video him working some wild birds. This particular track was about 2 to 3 minutes and I only took video of the last 18 seconds, but this was the most interesting part where the hen tried to do the "button hook" on him, but he has figured that trick out. This whole experience out there was good for him and interesting to me to see again how quick these dogs figure it out. He had only very structured quartering with 90% dead birds to this point and only a few live fliers mixed in the last month or so. But with the sound foundation he was figuring these birds out quickly. 

Turn your sound down since like usual there was some wind on the prairie:evil:


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Well, bird seasons are all closed from NOV 15-30. Booo-Hooo, so whats a guy gonna do Try to get some winter venison stored up, that's what.

My son CW, grandson Joe, plus NB met up at our farm in the West Shore area Thursday nite. Friday was slow for deer movement, the new MARs for the 12 NW County area instituted just this year greatly reduced the pool of shooter bucks. Tooooooooo warm. Saturday was warmer still with a threat of rain. I switched up stands and deer started coming out of the woodwork. I saw 12 deer before 9 AM, many of them immature bucks. At 9:05 two shooters walked over the hill ~ 100 yds away. This 2.5 year old 7 point offered a clean shot and I took it. The left horn had a kicker, fairly rare for this area. Not the prettiest buck I've ever shot, but fat as a hog, having eaten corn, soybeans and alfalfa all summer. Mmmmmmm, backstraps.

Pics of NB, my buck plus Joe and CW below.








[/URL][/IMG]








[/URL][/IMG]








[/URL][/IMG]

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

NB


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Me again! The camera is working well however the mount I'm using shows my hat or hair (without the hat) in the FOV (field of view). I would like to know GDG what and where you're using to hold the camera.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> JAM (Jill)


GDGs hat brim shows in some of his vids, I highly doubt his hair would though. I think you could just dedicate one hat to videoing and trim off the portion that gets in the way. Or you could just give yourself a haircut.

See you training this week.


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Well, bird seasons are all closed from NOV 15-30. Booo-Hooo, so whats a guy gonna do Try to get some winter venison stored up, that's what.
> 
> My son CW, grandson Joe, plus NB met up at our farm in the West Shore area Thursday nite. Friday was slow for deer movement, the new MARs for the 12 NW County area instituted just this year greatly reduced the pool of shooter bucks. Tooooooooo warm. Saturday was warmer still with a threat of rain. I switched up stands and deer started coming out of the woodwork. I saw 12 deer before 9 AM, many of them immature bucks. At 9:05 two shooters walked over the hill ~ 100 yds away. This 2.5 year old 7 point offered a clean shot and I took it. The left horn had a kicker, fairly rare for this area. Not the prettiest buck I've ever shot, but fat as a hog, having eaten corn, soybeans and alfalfa all summer. Mmmmmmm, backstraps.
> 
> Pics of NB, my buck plus Joe and CW below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
> 
> NB


Very nice NB!! Enjoy that 
venison.


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Well, bird seasons are all closed from NOV 15-30. Booo-Hooo, so whats a guy gonna do Try to get some winter venison stored up, that's what.
> 
> My son CW, grandson Joe, plus NB met up at our farm in the West Shore area Thursday nite. Friday was slow for deer movement, the new MARs for the 12 NW County area instituted just this year greatly reduced the pool of shooter bucks. Tooooooooo warm. Saturday was warmer still with a threat of rain. I switched up stands and deer started coming out of the woodwork. I saw 12 deer before 9 AM, many of them immature bucks. At 9:05 two shooters walked over the hill ~ 100 yds away. This 2.5 year old 7 point offered a clean shot and I took it. The left horn had a kicker, fairly rare for this area. Not the prettiest buck I've ever shot, but fat as a hog, having eaten corn, soybeans and alfalfa all summer. Mmmmmmm, backstraps.
> 
> Pics of NB, my buck plus Joe and CW below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
> 
> NB


Congrats, NB! Nice looking buck. Nice pictures, too (as usual).


----------



## Jim58

Great job NB!!

Sent from my XT907 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> GDGs hat brim shows in some of his vids, I highly doubt his hair would though. I think you could just dedicate one hat to videoing and trim off the portion that gets in the way. Or you could just give yourself a haircut.
> 
> See you training this week.


I tried putting a baseball style hat on backwards and only a few hairs that were sticking out of the hole in the back (now front) of the hat showed. I'll keep experimenting with hats.

And... NAH... I don't want to give myself a haircut. I'll keep your suggestion in mind though. I'm in charge of the wood boiler while hubby is at deer camp. It's possible I could accidentally burn off enough hair so it won't show in the picture. I'm really hoping that won't be the case. 

Venison in the freezer yet?


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I tried putting a baseball style hat on backwards and only a few hairs that were sticking out of the hole in the back (now front) of the hat showed. I'll keep experimenting with hats.
> 
> And... NAH... I don't want to give myself a haircut. I'll keep your suggestion in mind though. I'm in charge of the wood boiler while hubby is at deer camp. It's possible I could accidentally burn off enough hair so it won't show in the picture. I'm really hoping that won't be the case.
> 
> Venison in the freezer yet?


If it's just a few hairs...but I would be careful around the fire. Remember "stop drop and roll ". 

No venison yet here.


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Well, bird seasons are all closed from NOV 15-30. Booo-Hooo, so whats a guy gonna do Try to get some winter venison stored up, that's what.
> 
> My son CW, grandson Joe, plus NB met up at our farm in the West Shore area Thursday nite. Friday was slow for deer movement, the new MARs for the 12 NW County area instituted just this year greatly reduced the pool of shooter bucks. Tooooooooo warm. Saturday was warmer still with a threat of rain. I switched up stands and deer started coming out of the woodwork. I saw 12 deer before 9 AM, many of them immature bucks. At 9:05 two shooters walked over the hill ~ 100 yds away. This 2.5 year old 7 point offered a clean shot and I took it. The left horn had a kicker, fairly rare for this area. Not the prettiest buck I've ever shot, but fat as a hog, having eaten corn, soybeans and alfalfa all summer. Mmmmmmm, backstraps.
> 
> Pics of NB, my buck plus Joe and CW below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
> 
> NB


Nice buck!! 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## michgundog

Good info. 

https://pheasantsforever.org/page/1/201301purinatip.jsp


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> If it's just a few hairs...but I would be careful around the fire. Remember "stop drop and roll ".
> 
> No venison yet here.


Usually, yeah... but "Mother Nature" is nicely taking care of any fire hazards. Not good for putting venison in the freezer though. 

At least it's warm out so I only have to load the thing once or twice a day. We used to shut it down during deer season as I went to camp, too. I'd come home at night and freeze with the propane heat. So, the price I pay for that nice, warm, wood heat is that I have to feed the thing wood. I guess it's worth the effort.

Good luck hunting!


----------



## Steelheadfred

Congrats Rod, nice buck, habitat work pays off.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

THANKS for the kind words re my buck Guys and Gals. Passing On The Traditions of hunting is vitally important to me. That's why we got Joe actively involved in the tracking and he wanted to help with the drag out too. It was a short track, the 225 gr NBT bullet shot from a .35 Whelen took out the top of the heart with all the major blood vessels attached. It was a blood trail a "blind man" could follow. That buck was dead on his feet but didn't know it!!

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Here Jam

http://store.contour.com/ae/us/mounts/hat-mount/invt/3750/


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Here Jam
> 
> http://store.contour.com/ae/us/mounts/hat-mount/invt/3750/


Hi Doug, 

Thanks for the link. I have both the hat mount and the headband mount that are shown on that page plus a few more. I've been using the headband. It holds the camera quite well. I just have to get it adjusted so nothing interferes with the picture. Still a work in progress.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Here is another option for you. 



 

Brandy went to have a follow up with the vet. She stained the eye and the infection is 100% gone and there is no scar.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Here is another option for you. Contour HD Hat Mount - YouTube
> 
> 
> Brandy went to have a follow up with the vet. She stained the eye and the infection is 100% gone and there is no scar.


AWESOME! Very happy for you both.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

I'm with Brandy said:


> Brandy went to have a follow up with the vet. She stained the eye and the infection is 100% gone and there is no scar.


Good to Hear, Doug.

I know more than a few hunting dogs that live with corneal scars the rest of their lives.

NB


----------



## dauber

Good news on Brandy Doug! Very glad to hear.

JAM, I'll bring the clippers Thursday and take care of those "stray hairs"


----------



## dauber

2013 ESS NAC made it thru 101 dogs today. Maybe have partial callbacks later tonight.

http://www.essft.com/2013nac/callbacks.html

Oh yes...I heard from GDG and he has no power and may not for most of the week. Hope he and Mrs. GDG are staying warm and dry.


----------



## yooperguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Here is another option for you. Contour HD Hat Mount - YouTube
> 
> 
> Brandy went to have a follow up with the vet. She stained the eye and the infection is 100% gone and there is no scar.


Great news!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Good news on Brandy Doug! Very glad to hear.
> 
> JAM, I'll bring the clippers Thursday and take care of those "stray hairs"


You're so thoughtful. :-(


----------



## I'm with Brandy

I am so happy I caught the infection before it did permanent damage. I notice the day after we got back form Iowa that the inner eyelid on the right eye was not open all the way maybe about 80% open and that she was rubbing the eye frequently with her paw. I immediately made the vet appointment. The vet appointment was two days after we got back because the vet was not in on Monday. By Tuesday there was sign of green white fluid building in the corner of the eye. Probably would have been better to request my vet to come in on Monday and pay the emergency fee. Fortunately it all worked out. You have to watch those little telltale signs.


----------



## dauber

dauber said:


> 2013 ESS NAC made it thru 101 dogs today. Maybe have partial callbacks later tonight.
> 
> http://www.essft.com/2013nac/callbacks.html
> 
> Oh yes...I heard from GDG and he has no power and may not for most of the week. Hope he and Mrs. GDG are staying warm and dry.


Hope all is well with J Skiba and family, I see he scratched. Looks like a tough day for Mhari and Vicky and Cathy.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Hey all I have a question regarding ears. I put show Sheen on Jake's before we hit the bush but he still manages to get mats and burrs I can't get out. Does anyone clip their spaniel's ears? 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## yooperguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Hey all I have a question regarding ears. I put show Sheen on Jake's before we hit the bush but he still manages to get mats and burrs I can't get out. Does anyone clip their spaniel's ears?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


LOL! I'm sitting in a pile of ear fur as I type this! I try to stay on top of the ear mats (all mats for that matter) and I will use barber scissors to clip them as they start to form. I also use a mat comb... [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Safari-De-Matting-Comb-for-Dogs/dp/B0002ARR2W/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1384948927&sr=8-2&keywords=mat+comb"]Amazon.com: Safari De-Matting Comb for Dogs: Pet [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@31FzcjLfHsL[/ame] This works very well as it is basically a comb made of knives and it literally cuts through the mat to break it up. 

As far as the burrs and sticks - I will gently work them out the best as I can as I pet my dog. I've found that they will come out nicely if you work them gently as opposed to trying to yank them out.

Now - I won't say that my periodic clippings amount to a show worthy groom job... but that's not my goal. I'll use the clippers to get a uniform length in the Spring.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Hope all is well with J Skiba and family, I see he scratched. Looks like a tough day for Mhari and Vicky and Cathy.


All is well Millie is in heat. Total bummer she's really on her game right now too! 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> All is well Millie is in heat. Total bummer she's really on her game right now too!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks Mike. Too bad, one less dog to cheer for!


----------



## dauber

http://www.essft.com/2013nac/callbacks.html

A few more dogs to go to finish the second series. The 3rd and 4th are at different grounds. The cover looks good and lots of smiles on day one... https://nationalessfieldtrials.shutterfly.com/


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> http://www.essft.com/2013nac/callbacks.html
> 
> A few more dogs to go to finish the second series. The 3rd and 4th are at different grounds. The cover looks good and lots of smiles on day one... https://nationalessfieldtrials.shutterfly.com/



Hi all. Some one found the switch in St Joe county and gave it a flip.


With these kinds of conditions the spaniels will sort themselves out quickly.
Great prairie grass for the spaniels to work in. This part of Ohio has always been "Mecca" for the Springer folks.


https://nationalessfieldtrials.shutterfly.com/111


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Hi all. Some one found the switch in St Joe county and gave it a flip.
> 
> 
> With these kinds of conditions the spaniels will sort themselves out quickly.
> Great prairie grass for the spaniels to work in. This part of Ohio has always been "Mecca" for the Springer folks.
> 
> 
> https://nationalessfieldtrials.shutterfly.com/111


GOOD to see 'ya got some juice back down there Hal.  Usually, its the Northern reaches that get those prolonged power outages. Tornados are a very nasty business.

NB


----------



## dauber

http://www.essft.com/2013nac/callbacks.html

46 dogs back for the 4th. The cover looks great in the 3rd series pictures.


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> GOOD to see 'ya got some juice back down there Hal.  Usually, its the Northern reaches that get those prolonged power outages. Tornados are a very nasty business.
> 
> NB


Thanks NB there are still a good number of folks without in southern Michigan. Due to the wide spread nature of this behemoth storm, there were not a lot of additional linesman to help come in to put Humpty back together again. The crew that worked on our lines were from Mississippi. We had the tree clean up all they had to do was splice lines and set breakers.



dauber said:


> http://www.essft.com/2013nac/callbacks.html
> 
> 46 dogs back for the 4th. The cover looks great in the 3rd series pictures.



I should say, 27 dogs lost in that cover between the 3rd and 4th.
The area reminds me of the South 9 at Laubenhyde on Garber Rd








Good training cover for dogs and birds though surrounded by chest deep switch grass, always makes for testy marks with lots of factors, distance and density of cover.
Ohio cover prolly has darn few breaks in it that's why all the photos are in the parking lot or cart paths or course changes.
Hie-on!


----------



## Jim58

Thanks for posting the links to the photo's guys, they went well with my morning coffee.

Jim


----------



## dauber

16 dogs to the 5th tomorrow. http://www.essft.com/2013nac/callbacks.html

I said Mhari had a tough day early, well she has one of the 16 as does Gary. 

Yes GDG that 3rd and 4th reminded me of the south 9 cover. Nice vid of Maya!


----------



## Gavan

Finished the 5th and went to water an hour ago.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> Finished the 5th and went to water an hour ago.


Good! Your connections are better than mine. Thanks Gavan.


----------



## JAM

14 to the water. Water complete. Now the REAL waiting begins.


----------



## JAM

It's final! Here ya go!


CM #28 Piper with Lloyd Jacobs

CM #40 Kai with Steve Beyers

CM #112 Treva with Bob Montler

4th #107 Dante with Jess Sekey 

3rd #10 Sparky with Bob Montler

2th #99 Belle with John Hall

1st #42 NAFC Marshal with Connor Wharton!!!!
Youngest National Winner!

Congrats!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> It's final! Here ya go!
> 
> 
> CM #28 Piper with Lloyd Jacobs
> 
> CM #40 Kai with Steve Beyers
> 
> CM #112 Treva with Bob Montler
> 
> 4th #107 Dante with Jess Sekey
> 
> 3rd #10 Sparky with Bob Montler
> 
> 2th #99 Belle with John Hall
> 
> 1st #42 NAFC Marshal with Connor Wharton!!!!
> Youngest National Winner!
> 
> Congrats!


Thanks JAM! Do you know how old Connor is? I saw his picture in Lion Country Supply catalog a while back. Pretty cool having a youngster win the NAFC!!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Thanks JAM! Do you know how old Connor is? I saw his picture in Lion Country Supply catalog a while back. Pretty cool having a youngster win the NAFC!!


No I don't. I was wondering the same thing. I got the placements from essft.com.

I know John Hall (2nd Belle) who attends the TVESSC's trials quite often - not this year though, Steve Beyers (CM Kai) was TVESSC's apprentice judge in the first trial I ever entered in 2007, and Lloyd Jacobs (CM Piper) from hunt tests in Wisconsin.

Jim O'Keefe with Caera finished the trial. Jim and Elaine always enter our trial and I was pulling for them. Maybe next year. Bill Cosgrove, this year's judge also had a dog that finished the trial. That's quite an accomplishment even without a placement.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> No I don't. I was wondering the same thing. I got the placements from essft.com.
> 
> I know John Hall (2nd Belle) who attends the TVESSC's trials quite often - not this year though, Steve Beyers (CM Kai) was TVESSC's apprentice judge in the first trial I ever entered in 2007, and Lloyd Jacobs (CM Piper) from hunt tests in Wisconsin.
> 
> Jim O'Keefe with Caera finished the trial. Jim and Elaine always enter our trial and I was pulling for them. Maybe next year. Bill Cosgrove, this year's judge also had a dog that finished the trial. That's quite an accomplishment even without a placement.


Thanks JAM. AR Ginn made it to water with Sherpa. If they completed it AR would have completed the National Cocker Championship and the ESS NAC. Pretty darn good too.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> No I don't. I was wondering the same thing. I got the placements from essft.com.
> 
> I know *John Hall* (2nd Belle) who attends the TVESSC's trials quite often - not this year though, Steve Beyers (CM Kai) was TVESSC's apprentice judge in the first trial I ever entered in 2007, and Lloyd Jacobs (CM Piper) from hunt tests in Wisconsin.
> 
> Jim O'Keefe with Caera finished the trial. Jim and Elaine always enter our trial and I was pulling for them. Maybe next year. *Bill Cosgrove, this year's judge also had a dog that finished the trial. That's quite an accomplishment even without a placement.*





John Hall won the thing some 15 yrs ago, Jess Sekey won it some 30 yrs ago use to train with Hall and Sekey at Langhands in Harvard Ill, 
Nancy and I bought our 1st FC from Bill C. that was Fc/Afc Alex
Those 3 guys are always around the finish line somewhere. Good dog men! 
Bob Montler I believe is a past winner as well.
Give those guys a spaniel and they will train'em up. *Knowing them they would like their bloodlines but it really doesn't matter to them they just train and when they are tired of training they just train some more.*


To quote Mike Wallace one of the Judges "the toughest trial he had ever witnessed" and Mike is 2 time NOC winner.


So off to training I go! Cold and a sprinkle of snow winds light from the NW
Hie on


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> It's final! Here ya go!
> 
> 
> CM #28 Piper with Lloyd Jacobs
> 
> CM #40 Kai with Steve Beyers
> 
> CM #112 Treva with Bob Montler
> 
> 4th #107 Dante with Jess Sekey
> 
> 3rd #10 Sparky with Bob Montler
> 
> 2th #99 Belle with John Hall
> 
> 1st #42 NAFC Marshal with Connor Wharton!!!!
> Youngest National Winner!
> 
> Congrats!


Thanks for posting JAM. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> John Hall won the thing some 15 yrs ago, Jess Sekey won it some 30 yrs ago use to train with Hall and Sekey at Langhands in Harvard Ill,
> Nancy and I bought our 1st FC from Bill C. that was Fc/Afc Alex
> Those 3 guys are always around the finish line somewhere. Good dog men!
> Bob Montler I believe is a past winner as well.
> Give those guys a spaniel and they will train'em up. *Knowing them they would like their bloodlines but it really doesn't matter to them they just train and when they are tired of training they just train some more.*
> 
> 
> To quote Mike Wallace one of the Judges "the toughest trial he had ever witnessed" and Mike is 2 time NOC winner.
> 
> 
> So off to training I go! Cold and a sprinkle of snow winds light from the NW
> Hie on



You're a brave feller. It's VERY cold here with the nasty wind chill. Last time I looked it was -3 F. Too early for that!

Have fun anyway. Hie On!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Thanks JAM! Do you know how old Connor is? I saw his picture in Lion Country Supply catalog a while back. Pretty cool *having a youngster win the NAFC!*!



I believe he is 18yrs old.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> You're a brave feller. It's VERY cold here with the nasty wind chill. Last time I looked it was -3 F. Too early for that!
> 
> Have fun anyway. Hie On!



Not that cold here lets say brisk!






Contour roam works good in the cold!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> I believe he is 18yrs old.


Thanks gdg! He has been handling for a few years too. 

It's like at JAM"S here but with heavy snow too...must be 4-5" as of now. 

Way to go Molly!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Not that cold here lets say brisk!
> Molly 11 23 - YouTube
> 
> 
> Contour roam works good in the cold!


The Contour Roam2 is working great. Steve was kind enough to put it on his head and take a few videos of our training session last Thursday. I can't post or watch any videos until Dec. 14th because I of some settings when I loaded the Storyteller software. There were options that came by default checked to automatically check for updates to the Storyteller program and also the Contour camera. Since those sites no longer exist there was nothing to tell the program to stop checking. So... I used up most of my data allotment for the month in a few short days. Hubby came home from camp and discovered the problem. 

So I'm going through withdrawal. :sad:


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Thanks gdg! He has been handling for a few years too.
> 
> It's like at JAM"S here but with heavy snow too...must be 4-5" as of now.
> 
> Way to go Molly!



I believe Dean Brunn was the youngest NFC winner prior to this years winner, I want to say that Dean was 23yrs at that time, I do believe the dogs name was Far Ridge Request. I think Dean prolly holds the record for the youngest Nationals gun team member. He was a fine shot as well as a trainer /handler. I'm sure there is a breed historian out there that could set all of these things straight.




JAM said:


> The Contour Roam2 is working great. Steve was kind enough to put it on his head and take a few videos of our training session last Thursday. I can't post or watch any videos until Dec. 14th because I of some settings when I loaded the Storyteller software. There were options that came by default checked to automatically check for updates to the Storyteller program and also the Contour camera. Since those sites no longer exist there was nothing to tell the program to stop checking. So... I used up most of my data allotment for the month in a few short days. Hubby came home from camp and discovered the problem.
> 
> So I'm going through withdrawal. :sad:





Wow you have me lost, however I am not going to check the box that says restore to defaults.
After each upload session I usually delete the contents of the memory card.


----------



## JAM

> Wow you have me lost, however I am not going to check the box that says restore to defaults.
> After each upload session I usually delete the contents of the memory card.


GDG, This is where the problem was... It had nothing to do with videos on the camera/memory card.

Open "Storyteller". Click on "ContourStoryteller" (next to "file"). Click on "Preferences". There are 3 tabs. "General" (which has 2 "Update" boxes that had to be unchecked), "Privacy" (which also had something that had to be unchecked), and "Sharing". Once the "Update" boxes were unchecked my data usage went back to normal. However, I had already used up a ton while the program (even though it wasn't on) kept looking for the updates every time I turned the computer on. If I had shut the wifi off that would also have stopped it from looking but I thought as long as I wasn't on the Internet it would stop. That was not the case.

Hope that's clear as mud.


----------



## gundogguy

A compilation of spaniel training and gunning.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> A compilation of spaniel training and gunning.
> 
> Dead a bird a bunch - YouTube


Cool vid. Do those poor dogs know what a missed bird is?? I see you proofed a few by missing the first shot!!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Cool vid. Do those poor dogs know what a missed bird is?? I see you proofed a few by missing the first shot!!


LOL It's the old saying "don't take any prisoners" Proofing is essential
for dog and ...handler!
I did not come to miss, I'm extremely tough on myself when I do!
Beside it puts pressure on the gun and pressure is a good thing!

Nice to see the cold weather come great time to prove a new reload under tough conditions. I have gone retro, reloading Fed. papers
all of the birds taken in the video were shot using Fed. paper
reloads. 

Dead a Bird II is in production.


----------



## Hunting with Drake

Does anyone hunt rabbits on a regular basis with their springers? A huge part of why I got Drake was versitility...ducks, geese, grouse, woodcock, and rabbits. I'm thinking after late season grouse is over I'm gonna see how the little dog takes to rabbit hunting. I've only shot rabbits in front of beagles...So what's a good method for using a springer for rabbits?


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> LOL It's the old saying "don't take any prisoners" Proofing is essential
> for dog and ...handler!
> I did not come to miss, I'm extremely tough on myself when I do!
> Beside it puts pressure on the gun and pressure is a good thing!
> 
> Nice to see the cold weather come great time to prove a new reload under tough conditions. *I have gone retro, reloading Fed. papers*
> *all of the birds taken in the video were shot using Fed. paper*
> *reloads.*
> 
> Dead a Bird II is in production.


You can find federal papers hulls that are still useable? One of my first jobs as a kid for my dad was to use that hot rod in each empty to melt the wax on the outside of the hull so they had a good crimp.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Hunting with Drake said:


> Does anyone hunt rabbits on a regular basis with their springers? A huge part of why I got Drake was versitility...ducks, geese, grouse, woodcock, and rabbits. I'm thinking after late season grouse is over I'm gonna see how the little dog takes to rabbit hunting. I've only shot rabbits in front of beagles...So what's a good method for using a springer for rabbits?


I was wondering this as well. He's flushed one before but it was by accident. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

Hunting with Drake said:


> Does anyone hunt rabbits on a regular basis with their springers? A huge part of why I got Drake was versitility...ducks, geese, grouse, woodcock, and rabbits. I'm thinking after late season grouse is over I'm gonna see how the little dog takes to rabbit hunting. I've only shot rabbits in front of beagles...So what's a good method for using a springer for rabbits?


I use my cockers for bunnies as long as the weather allows after Dec. 1st. Around here before deer gun season bunnies are too full of ticks for me, but after prolonged cold they don't have nearly as many ticks on them.

I use my spaniels much like I do for grouse and woodcock, but concentrate more on good hare habitat. I will not shoot unless I see the dog STEADY TO THE FLUSH or STEADY TO THE WHISTLE for wild flushed ones since shooting bunnies is also shooting at the same level as the dog. A pack of decent beagles will certainly yield you more hare than one spaniel in the big woods country especially since they are usually in thicker conifer covers and are out of sight quickly, but I really enjoy seeing the spaniels work bunny scent and being in the woods more days.










Now if I lived and hunted in areas with cottontail I would work brushy hedges. I have had some great hunts in South Dakota and Kansas where the spaniels had a blast flushing cottontails out of the hedges, hupping, then retrieving the rabbit.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> You can find federal papers hulls that are still useable? One of my first jobs as a kid for my dad was to use that hot rod in each empty to melt the wax on the outside of the hull so they had a good crimp.


Once fired hulls available from the usual sources, BPI,Precision Reloading. I to re wax, I use a curling iron to heat the hull up melt the wax..Great fun! 
Paper will get you about 3-4 uses.
New international loads from http://www.gamaliel.com/prodcat/federal-gold-medal.asp?page=2 
Absolutely a great load, very soft shooting hard hitting 24 gram load



CDN_Cocker said:


> I was wondering this as well. He's flushed one before but it was by accident.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Cass a spaniel never flushes accidentally, your dog prolly bumped the rabbit. In training we watch for this like a hawk, a spaniel that bumps birds or game consistently is never going to win in trial. if we see a pattern of bumping taking place in dogs training life, very hard decisions are made about the dog!



dauber said:


> I use my cockers for bunnies as long as the weather allows after Dec. 1st. Around here before deer gun season *bunnies are too full of ticks for me,* but after prolonged cold they don't have nearly as many ticks on them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now if I lived and hunted in areas with cottontail I would work brushy hedges. I have had some great hunts in South Dakota and Kansas where the spaniels had a blast flushing cottontails out of the hedges, hupping, then retrieving the rabbit.


I take enough ticks off me dogs February is rabbit season as far as I'm concerned. Really had a nice last year short snow falls down here!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Once fired hulls available from the usual sources, BPI,Precision Reloading. I to re wax, I use a curling iron to heat the hull up melt the wax..Great fun!
> Paper will get you about 3-4 uses.
> *New international loads from **http://www.gamaliel.com/prodcat/federal-gold-medal.asp?page=2*
> *Absolutely a great load, very soft shooting hard hitting 24 gram load*


That N119 is a nice looking training load! Thanks for the tip.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> Cass a spaniel never flushes accidentally, your dog prolly bumped the rabbit.


What I meant was I don't think he knew it was there. It flushed and he sat there watching it confused Lol. Didn't take chase or anything just continued on looking for birds

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> A compilation of spaniel training and gunning.
> 
> Dead a bird a bunch - YouTube


Awesome video! How come they blow the stop whistle over and over?


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Awesome video! How come they blow the stop whistle over and over?


Good question. Not sure about which scene you refer.
However there is some coordination conflicts between video and audio. That compilation was taken using 2 different camera's.
also depending on the situation a dog or two might have been cheating a wee bit or the dog did not see the bird in the air immediately. 
Remember training is a wee bit like making sausage!
Also what is the sense of having a whistle if you do not use it!
Hie-on toot toot!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


>


Love that picture!

Can't wait till 12/14 ish so I can watch the videos.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Cool vid. Do those poor dogs know what a missed bird is?? I see you proofed a few by missing the first shot!!


Yes they no a miss when they get one they even come back and start over.




 
Reggie showing good manners. he got a retrieve a little latter!



dauber said:


> I use my cockers for bunnies as long as the weather allows after Dec. 1st. Around here before deer gun season bunnies are too full of ticks for me, but after prolonged cold they don't have nearly as many ticks on them.
> 
> I use my spaniels much like I do for grouse and woodcock, but concentrate more on good hare habitat. I will not shoot unless I see the dog STEADY TO THE FLUSH or STEADY TO THE WHISTLE for wild flushed ones since shooting bunnies is also shooting at the same level as the dog. A pack of decent beagles will certainly yield you more hare than one spaniel in the big woods country especially since they are usually in thicker conifer covers and are out of sight quickly, but I really enjoy seeing the spaniels work bunny scent and being in the woods more days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now if I lived and hunted in areas with cottontail I would work brushy hedges. I have had some great hunts in South Dakota and Kansas where the spaniels had a blast flushing cottontails out of the hedges, hupping, then retrieving the rabbit.


 
Iconic photo of your guys Dauber!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Yes they no a miss when they get one they even come back and start over.
> Reggie 1123a - YouTube
> 
> Reggie showing good manners. he got a retrieve a little latter!


There's proof they are proofed. I proof JAM's and Bob's dogs often.

Thanks for the compliments of the picture, it is one of my favorites. Along with little dog, big bird, and Zac's first roosters. 

Hope everyone has an enjoyable Thanksgiving day.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> You can find federal papers hulls that are still useable? One of my first jobs as a kid for my dad was to use that hot rod in each empty to melt the wax on the outside of the hull so they had a good crimp.


 
Re waxer from Remington, no less. Purchased from Goodwill Indust. for $4.00. Re waxes 20 hulls at a time they come out looking very good when reloaded. This load is a great cold weather load.

fed 209a primer
30.0grains of Long shot powder
Z-21 trap commander wad
Fed GM Paper hull
9/8 oz plated 6's
(Though I closer to 1 oz)
My Crony reads 1375fps( Low of 1322and a hi of 1409)
9500psi


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Re waxer from Remington, no less. Purchased from Goodwill Indust. for $4.00. Re waxes 20 hulls at a time they come out looking very good when reloaded. This load is a great cold weather load.
> 
> fed 209a primer
> 30.0grains of Long shot powder
> Z-21 trap commander wad
> Fed GM Paper hull
> 9/8 oz plated 6's
> (Though I closer to 1 oz)
> My Crony reads 1375fps( Low of 1322and a hi of 1409)
> 9500psi


Wow 20 hulls at once:SHOCKED:, why not 25. That is sweet.

That looks like a nice load! Might have to try that.


----------



## Jim58

gundogguy said:


> Re waxer from Remington, no less. Purchased from Goodwill Indust. for $4.00. Re waxes 20 hulls at a time they come out looking very good when reloaded. This load is a great cold weather load.
> 
> fed 209a primer
> 30.0grains of Long shot powder
> Z-21 trap commander wad
> Fed GM Paper hull
> 9/8 oz plated 6's
> (Though I closer to 1 oz)
> My Crony reads 1375fps( Low of 1322and a hi of 1409)
> 9500psi


"Repurposed" :beer: good job.

Sent from my XT907 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> Re waxer from Remington, no less. Purchased from Goodwill Indust. for $4.00. Re waxes 20 hulls at a time they come out looking very good when reloaded. This load is a great cold weather load.
> 
> fed 209a primer
> 30.0grains of Long shot powder
> Z-21 trap commander wad
> Fed GM Paper hull
> 9/8 oz plated 6's
> (Though I closer to 1 oz)
> My Crony reads 1375fps( Low of 1322and a hi of 1409)
> 9500psi


That's neat. I like old school stuff. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gundogguy

Jim58 said:


> "Repurposed" :beer: good job.
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


wow:yikes::yikes: 9:28am Must be braising the Turkey in beer or wine. 
Remember the alcohol should go in the pan not the chef if you want a good braise.


----------



## Jim58

gundogguy said:


> wow:yikes::yikes: 9:28am Must be braising the Turkey in beer or wine.
> Remember the alcohol should go in the pan not the chef if you want a good braise.


Did I miss something? Wasn't that a hot curler set you gave new life to?
And I always make sure the chef is well basted before he cooks as I seem to get better results. Or at least I think I do. 

Sent from my XT907 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

While training the other day I noticed how much difficultly the dogs had scenting their shot marks in the snow covered grass. It was quite obvious that the bird dropping below the snow that was laying on the grass 1-2 feet above ground was making it tough. One more example of scenting which is something that is very important to a spaniel. Here is a nice article by Mark Haglin on scenting.

http://www.spanieljournal.com/4mhaglin.html


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> While training the other day I noticed how much difficultly the dogs had scenting their shot marks in the snow covered grass. It was quite obvious that the bird dropping below the snow that was laying on the grass 1-2 feet above ground was making it tough. One more example of scenting which is something that is very important to a spaniel. Here is a nice article by Mark Haglin on scenting.
> 
> http://www.spanieljournal.com/4mhaglin.html


Thanks Dauber, conditions they are a changing! Snow and frost levels the field. Years of running dogs for dogless shooters on the preserve,during the winter months, always bring nightmares back. Of dogs struggling in foot deep powder, trying to locate a mark on a bird that has 'vanished". With little to no help from lack of available scent.
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________

Notice some interest of running dogs of different persuasions together in another thread. Or lack there of.

Her is how the Brits(UK) tackle the opportunities and problems.
Link is to a Training day on rabbits with Cockers and Labs.
It is done from 2 different camera angles and is really quite good.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hPHoaHEAIO0&desktop_uri=/watch?v=hPHoaHEAIO0

Training today will include dogs walking in the "gallery". maybe a possible eye wipe training situation!!
Have a good weekend!


----------



## Gavan

Good read and reinforces some of the notions I've had this fall guiding at Hillendale. Tracking wounded birds has been difficult on more than one occasion.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Her is how the Brits(UK) tackle the opportunities and problems.
> Link is to a Training day on rabbits with Cockers and Labs.
> It is done from 2 different camera angles and is really quite good.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hPHoaHEAIO0&desktop_uri=/watch?v=hPHoaHEAIO0
> 
> Training today will include dogs walking in the "gallery". maybe a possible eye wipe training situation!!
> Have a good weekend!


Nice vid of some lab training in UK. Good work for the cockers too.

Have fun with the gallery walk and eye wipes! Sounds like a great day planned.


----------



## uppower

Hey guys I have a question for you. Hank (Boykin) has a problem with snow balls building up in his legs. After a good run in the snow he has 5-6 baseball sized snow/ice balls built up on his leg fur. Then once it melts off he has really bad mats as a result of the snow build up I assume. Does anyone else have this problem? If so how do u combat it?
Thanks!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

uppower said:


> Hey guys I have a question for you. Hank (Boykin) has a problem with snow balls building up in his legs. After a good run in the snow he has 5-6 baseball sized snow/ice balls built up on his leg fur. Then once it melts off he has really bad mats as a result of the snow build up I assume. Does anyone else have this problem? If so how do u combat it?
> Thanks!


Musher's Secret!

It's not a secret anymore.

NB


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Musher's Secret!
> 
> It's not a secret anymore.
> 
> NB



Musher's secret and Paw pro work fairly well for my dogs. When the conditions are right though nothing helps for too long. I bet Hank gets them bad, some of our AWS's with the good curls would literally get snow balls everywhere on their coat.


----------



## yooperguy

uppower said:


> Hey guys I have a question for you. Hank (Boykin) has a problem with snow balls building up in his legs. After a good run in the snow he has 5-6 baseball sized snow/ice balls built up on his leg fur. Then once it melts off he has really bad mats as a result of the snow build up I assume. Does anyone else have this problem? If so how do u combat it?
> Thanks!


YEP! We have been combating the same issue here. Belle will stop and chew/pull the snowballs out but they build faster than she can remove them.

I have been trimming the mats after the fact.


----------



## gundogguy

Zeta walking in the gallerywatching another dog working for the first time. Karen Balinski's, Mai Tai MH working the beat proofing her routine.






Zeta's training run, two cameras use to get the work from different perspectives. Nancy's correction left in for emphasis, and correcting a poor running patterned. It was a verbal warning of bad things to come if one little dog does not run correctly.
Also a really tough mark on the bird that was flushed , up and over 2 hills.






Sunday funnies with Glessfta, Nancy walking again in gallery and Dallas Kittle and his Cocker pup Tillie

Sorry I feel real bad we do not have any snow here. so I cannot offer much advice on the snow balls clinging to dogs coat


----------



## JAM

Citari Springers said:


> Hi,
> folks thought I would join in on the discussions of Springers in the field!
> been in the field with them since 1985 and still loving the game!


Welcome Citari Springers!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Citari Springers said:


> Hi,
> folks thought I would join in on the discussions of Springers in the field!
> been in the field with them since 1985 and still loving the game!


Hi There,

Welcome to The Spaniel Corner. 

There are a few Cockers nosing around here too!










NB


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Hi There,
> 
> Welcome to The Spaniel Corner.
> 
> There are a few Cockers nosing around here too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB


WOW! Beautiful pic, NB!


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Hi There,
> 
> Welcome to The Spaniel Corner.
> 
> There are a few Cockers nosing around here too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB


Welcome to the spaniel corner! Looking forward to your insights. 

Nice picture NB!


----------



## Citari Springers

Been around cockers as well. Trish Jackson is a close friend and have help her with her sucess!


----------



## gundogguy

Citari Springers said:


> Hi,
> folks thought I would join in on the discussions of Springers in the field!
> been in the field with them since 1985 and still loving the game!


Hey welcome aboard! There is always room here at the Inn and at the Corner!



Citari Springers said:


> Been around cockers as well. Trish Jackson is a close friend and have help her with her sucess!


Please give my/our best to Trish I trust she is well. Hal And Nancy Standish


h


----------



## CDN_Cocker

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Hi There,
> 
> Welcome to The Spaniel Corner.
> 
> There are a few Cockers nosing around here too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB


Now that's a cool looking pup

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Hi There,
> 
> Welcome to The Spaniel Corner.
> 
> There are a few Cockers nosing around here too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB


NB is that a North Dakota pup? Great look about those Cocker pups! I'm not much on how a pup looks, but that one could change my thinking!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> NB is that a North Dakota pup? Great look about those Cocker pups! I'm not much on how a pup looks, but that one could change my thinking!


Hal,

Our Rocky is from Glencoe. They don't breed very many litters but if you ask them _real nice_ they may sell you one. Most of their pups go to field trailers. We made the drive to Medoken, ND to pick up the pup and Paul and Vicky were kind enough to let me tag along for a few hours while they were training. What little I know about training FDs comes from them and Tom Ness. 

There were two pups left, we wanted a male so we took Rocky. Paul kept a little blue roan female, which they named "Snicket". She finished her FC in her first AA year and has been in the money in three Cocker NC's.

It validates the "Delmar Smith Theorem". Breed the "Best to the Best". Let everyone come from out of town and pick their pups. Take what's left over and train them up. Then go field trialing. Delmar made at least three Brittany National Champions that way, that I know of, and probably more if you count Rick's wins in that NC.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Hal,
> What little I know about training FDs comes from them and Tom Ness.
> 
> 
> 
> It validates the "Delmar Smith Theorem". Breed the "Best to the Best". Let everyone come from out of town and pick their pups. Take what's left over and train them up. Then go field trialing. Delmar made at least three Brittany National Champions that way, that I know of, and probably more if you count Rick's wins in that NC.
> 
> NB


Well having your intro course to spanieling from Paul, Vicky and Tom is top notch place to begin.
Had a great Lunch with Nessy last fall at the Mi.Cocker trial.

Spent a week one night with Delmar in San Antonio.
Trading stories and fond remembrance of Talbot Radcliff and Saighton Kennels, in Wales, who we had both visit earlier in the year at different times.
He was there for a visit and I was there picking up pups for a client.
He and Talbot shared very similar breeding philosophy's. And their track record proved it.


----------



## Citari Springers

I have had many that purchaed Springers as a pet. With no intention to hunt them. Realize the energentic hunting instinc to seek game. That would send them to me to train and compete in Hunttest. In the fall!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

I must say, while I have not been a big fan of the constant shoveling I've had to do lately with all this snow, it has proved to be an advantage with the dog. The deep snow is really forcing him to rely on his nose and not his eyes. Even when I throw him marks they sink down through the snow so he has to hunt for them. Kind of hoping the white stuff sticks around for a bit. His scenting gets better with each retrieve.


----------



## gundogguy

Well the hot stove league has begun, I have begun editing a Video montage of various dogs in training. Working on, in my opinion, the number bonding behavior, man and dog can share to together.
Fetch it here. Bring it to me, because I said so!
The retrieve is the basis for all other work that a spaniel can accomplish.
If it is developed hap haphazardly or with out commitment by either handler or dog, one will never reach what we referred to as fully trained.
And that would be a shame. Why have a dog that is not given the chance to be all it can be.


----------



## Citari Springers

gundogguy said:


> Well the hot stove league has begun, I have begun editing a Video montage of various dogs in training. Working on, in my opinion, the number bonding behavior, man and dog can share to together.
> Fetch it here. Bring it to me, because I said so!
> The retrieve is the basis for all other work that a spaniel can accomplish.
> If it is developed hap haphazardly or with out commitment by either handler or dog, one will never reach what we referred to as fully trained.
> And that would be a shame. Why have a dog that is not given the chance to be all it can be.
> 
> Fetch it here...To hand! - YouTube


nice video look forward to see more great job!


----------



## Citari Springers




----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Well the hot stove league has begun, I have begun editing a Video montage of various dogs in training. Working on, in my opinion, the number bonding behavior, man and dog can share to together.
> Fetch it here. Bring it to me, because I said so!
> The retrieve is the basis for all other work that a spaniel can accomplish.
> If it is developed hap haphazardly or with out commitment by either handler or dog, one will never reach what we referred to as fully trained.
> And that would be a shame. Why have a dog that is not given the chance to be all it can be.
> 
> Fetch it here...To hand! - YouTube


Very nice and well said on building a bond thru retrieving. One of our favored winter activities when snowbound is "fetch, hold, give" along with some heeling and those commands. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## dauber

Citari Springers said:


>


Nice looker there!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Nice looker there!


----------



## Jim58

Citari Springers said:


>


Is this the started dog from your website? Very nice looking either way.

Sent from my XT907 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## Citari Springers

Jim58 said:


> Is this the started dog from your website? Very nice looking either way.
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


No it is not! They do look similar. Clue He is a popular Springer !


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Thanks This next link is the 2nd cast during the work-out.
> In 1st vid I gave a Zeta a Left-hand Back command she pivoted to my left and went back to the target pile.
> In this next vid she is given a right hand back command and she is expected to pivot to my right back to the target pile, she struggles, she works it out and makes the retrieve.
> Time and tide will smooth out the process and she will become quite comfortable taking either left or right backs.
> 
> 
> 12 30 2nd cast Zeta - YouTube
> 
> Lets all have a good 2014!


Very nice video of a learning/teaching session. Thanks for posting.


----------



## dauber

Hope everyone has a great New Year. Wind chills are -30 right now. Glad we cancelled training JAM!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Hope everyone has a great New Year. Wind chills are -30 right now. Glad we cancelled training JAM!


Happy New Year!

Yeah... Wind chill is -1 here. +8 without the wind. BBBRRRRR! Too cold for this old lady to train.


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Happy New Year!
> 
> Yeah... Wind chill is -1 here. +8 without the wind. BBBRRRRR! Too cold for this old lady to train.


Brrrrrrrrrrr. Happy New Year! Wind chill is -13 here now. Will get much colder tonight.


----------



## JAM

My very first attempt at posting a video. 

I got a Contour Roam 2 dog mount so I can attach the camera to Stormy's back. So... Retrieves seen from Stormy's point of view. 

It's pretty herky-jerky so might need some motion sickness meds after viewing.


----------



## yooperguy

JAM - Yoopergirl and I just watched Stormy video. WOW! Zooooooom.... BOING BOING BOING BOING. Zoooooooom! 

Yoopergirl yelled and giggled the whole time. I think the video is very representative of Stormy's style! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> JAM - Yoopergirl and I just watched Stormy video. WOW! Zooooooom.... BOING BOING BOING BOING. Zoooooooom!
> 
> Yoopergirl yelled and giggled the whole time. I think the video is very representative of Stormy's style! Thanks for sharing!


Glad you both enjoyed the ride. 

I'm looking forward to getting a video of Stormy flushing a bird (probably pigeon). That should be pretty cool. 

Now I have to pick GDG's brain on how to use the "Storyteller" software. I can't for the life of me figure out how to save the portion of the video that I want to keep.


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Glad you both enjoyed the ride.
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting a video of Stormy flushing a bird (probably pigeon). That should be pretty cool.
> 
> Now I have to pick GDG's brain on how to use the "Storyteller" software. I can't for the life of me figure out how to save the portion of the video that I want to keep.


Water retrieves would be neat too. Maybe steady things up a bit after entry and during the swim.


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> Water retrieves would be neat too. Maybe steady things up a bit after entry and during the swim.


Oh yeah... Great idea! Stormy has a very aggressive water entry. I hope the camera can survive that kind of abuse.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> My very first attempt at posting a video.
> 
> I got a Contour Roam 2 dog mount so I can attach the camera to Stormy's back. So... Retrieves seen from Stormy's point of view.
> 
> It's pretty herky-jerky so might need some motion sickness meds after viewing.
> 
> http://youtu.be/X_BRjO_ensc


That's the Stormy I know! It would be interesting to see him flush sit and make a retrieve.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> That's the Stormy I know! It would be interesting to see him flush sit and make a retrieve.


When the weather improves, we'll have to get together for a training/video session. I'm anxious to try the flush/retrieve video. I hope he doesn't break - especially on record! :smile-mad


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> When the weather improves, we'll have to get together for a training/video session. I'm anxious to try the flush/retrieve video. I hope he doesn't break - especially on record! :smile-mad


Edit edit edit... . That's the sausage making part!


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> Edit edit edit... . That's the sausage making part!


Will do!


----------



## gundogguy

yooperguy2003 said:


> Edit edit edit... . That's the sausage making part!





JAM said:


> Will do!


Zeta doing her job in the cold Big flush sucker bird she kept it together!







More to follow fun day in the snow and cold with spaniels


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Zeta doing her job in the cold Big flush sucker bird she kept it together!
> 
> Zeta 01 01 14 - YouTube
> 
> 
> More to follow fun day in the snow and cold with spaniels


Good girl, Zeta! Looking forward to more.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta doing her job in the cold Big flush sucker bird she kept it together!
> 
> Zeta 01 01 14 - YouTube
> 
> 
> More to follow fun day in the snow and cold with spaniels


The dreaded sucker bird. One more step for Zeta's climb up the mountain. Nice flush.


----------



## gundogguy

She gets a mark if you can watch this full screen check out the snow flying off her heels as she takes the line to the mark.


----------



## michgundog

http://www.pheasantblog.org/dog-of-the-day-mazey/


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> http://www.pheasantblog.org/dog-of-the-day-mazey/
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Ha! The springer out does the M2!

The other day. Zac out did my. Beretta that became a single shot in some sub zero temps. Kind ok messed up my on purpose miss then shoot for a retrieve plan!


----------



## gundogguy




----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> For several years when I was a young teen... I and some buddies would do forward flips into the snow... off from the 2nd story roof of each and every empty house on an empty street in an area dauber might remember from his early days in the yoopee. We'd start at one end of a street and hit each empty house until we got to the end. Climb up on the 1st story at the front of the house... and jump off the second story at the back of the house. Then we'd work our way back down the other side of the street. Winters that I remember... Seemed to be just like this...
> 
> I just spent over 5 hours moving snow. Wow! It's coming down out there like I haven't seen in years. I didn't have to be out there but I chose to be. It's my way of fighting cabin fever. My spaniel spent the whole time out there with me. She has learned to tunnel through massive drifts and emerge yards from where she started.
> 
> We just came in. Belle is a snowball. We'll hunker down for awhile now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Hey YG one of those was my house it wasn't empty!! I was at work. Haha. I remember you kids doing that.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Well the snow keeps flying up here, I've had enough. Jake seems to be enjoying it though, here's some shots from today out playing in the yard


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Hey YG one of those was my house it wasn't empty!! I was at work. Haha. I remember you kids doing that.


I knew you would... LOL! We were just helping out by testing the integrity of your snow laden roof. Ahh... the good old days...&#128513;

Stay warm my friend...



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## yooperguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Well the snow keeps flying up here, I've had enough. Jake seems to be enjoying it though, here's some shots from today out playing in the yard


My wife's German Shepherd does not seem to like the snow and cold. Spaniels seem to like it quite a bit! Jake looks to be no exception! Good pics as evidence. 


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## JAM

CDN_Cocker said:


> Well the snow keeps flying up here, I've had enough. Jake seems to be enjoying it though, here's some shots from today out playing in the yard


Yeah... Jake looks like he's having a ton of fun! Wish I could say the same for myself. :sad:

Love the pictures. Keep 'em coming!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> I'm getting pretty good at forward flips. My back flips have been a little short so far and end in belly flops.





yooperguy2003 said:


> For several years when I was a young teen... I and some buddies would do forward flips into the snow... off from the 2nd story roof of each and every empty house on an empty street in an area dauber might remember from his early days in the yoopee. We'd start at one end of a street and hit each empty house until we got to the end. Climb up on the 1st story at the front of the house... and jump off the second story at the back of the house. Then we'd work our way back down the other side of the street. Winters that I remember... Seemed to be just like this...
> 
> I just spent over 5 hours moving snow. Wow! It's coming down out there like I haven't seen in years. I didn't have to be out there but I chose to be. It's my way of fighting cabin fever. My spaniel spent the whole time out there with me. She has learned to tunnel through massive drifts and emerge yards from where she started.
> 
> We just came in. Belle is a snowball. We'll hunker down for awhile now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


This just confirms my suspicions. Guys are a little crazy.


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> This just confirms my suspicions. Guys are a little crazy.


You might be onto something... 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

Finally the wind let up enough to see and I could move the snow so we could play cocker board games yesterday.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hJmjH2ldS8"]Cocker board games 1 26 14 - YouTube[/ame]


Now this is just one example of what we do. We worked some on the right and left backs yesterday mixed in with changing boards and waiting your turn. My goal with this is to give them all something to think about and to try to challenge them some to see what we need to be working on. 


Smoke and Zac have been learning right and left backs and are coming along. Still need to get more comfortable with the handler moving to greater distances.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Finally the wind let up enough to see and I could move the snow so we could play cocker board games yesterday.
> 
> 
> Cocker board games 1 26 14 - YouTube
> 
> 
> Now this is just one example of what we do. We worked some on the right and left backs yesterday mixed in with changing boards and waiting your turn. My goal with this is to give them all something to think about and to try to challenge them some to see what we need to be working on.
> 
> 
> Smoke and Zac have been learning right and left backs and are coming along. Still need to get more comfortable with the handler moving to greater distances.


Excellent! Your laying in the foundation now very nicely, by the time spring gets here you will shooting flyers while the dogs are at "place" and your distance issues will be well in hand. LF and Rt backs will be a piece of cake..simple reason Dauber you work at it. You are now receiving the dividends of that trip to Pennsylvania and spending the weekend with P McGagh. Oh and paying attention to what was being shared. Your clipping coupons in a sense and that great place to be with your dog(s) 

11 above windy snow drifting. :lol: Just makes me laugh!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Finally the wind let up enough to see and I could move the snow so we could play cocker board games yesterday.
> 
> 
> Cocker board games 1 26 14 - YouTube
> 
> 
> Now this is just one example of what we do. We worked some on the right and left backs yesterday mixed in with changing boards and waiting your turn. My goal with this is to give them all something to think about and to try to challenge them some to see what we need to be working on.
> 
> 
> Smoke and Zac have been learning right and left backs and are coming along. Still need to get more comfortable with the handler moving to greater distances.


Nice job Team Dauber! I see I'll have to build another "table" before we can do those exercises. I only have 2 "trained" dogs so it might be a little less challenging.

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Excellent! Your laying in the foundation now very nicely, by the time spring gets here you will shooting flyers while the dogs are at "place" and your distance issues will be well in hand. LF and Rt backs will be a piece of cake..simple reason Dauber you work at it. You are now receiving the dividends of that trip to Pennsylvania and spending the weekend with P McGagh. Oh and paying attention to what was being shared. Your clipping coupons in a sense and that great place to be with your dog(s)
> 
> 11 above windy snow drifting. :lol: Just makes me laugh!



Thanks GDG. That weekend with P McGagh was highly valuable just as that first time I met you at that hunt test and got to see what a spaniel could really do.



JAM said:


> Nice job Team Dauber! I see I'll have to build another "table" before we can do those exercises. I only have 2 "trained" dogs so it might be a little less challenging.
> 
> Thanks for sharing!



You can crank things up with even just one dog JAM, dead birds, wing clips and flyers as GDG says. Also you can move boards around, start short and easy and walk boards back to increase distance. I like the multiple dogs so I don't have to walk out and pick up as many bumpers. 


I have a great way for you to increase the 2 trained dogs...there are a few good litters of cockers and springers either coming soon or on the ground already!! I think the JAM pack is ready for an addition!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Thanks GDG. That weekend with P McGagh was highly valuable just as that first time I met you at that hunt test and got to see what a spaniel could really do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can crank things up with even just one dog JAM, dead birds, wing clips and flyers as GDG says. Also you can move boards around, start short and easy and walk boards back to increase distance. I like the multiple dogs so I don't have to walk out and pick up as many bumpers.
> 
> 
> I have a great way for you to increase the 2 trained dogs...there are a few good litters of cockers and springers either coming soon or on the ground already!! I think the JAM pack is ready for an addition!


I'm new to the board training so thank you so much for taking the time to explain things.

Ahem... Mr. JAM is not ready for an addition - springer, cocker, mutt... Doesn't matter. And I quote, "We're not having 4 dogs."


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Ahem... Mr. JAM is not ready for an addition - springer, cocker, mutt... Doesn't matter. And I quote, "We're _not_ having 4 dogs."


4 is easy, its when the buyers office is looking at a 5th. Out of NFC Cliff X FC Fergie ( a double Druid granddaughter Badger on both sides) Hey I'm always up for another project pup .
Re run of our 4 getting some snow weather exercise dogs being dogs


----------



## gundogguy

Cocker National Champs.
Opie plugs place board training.
Nifty video.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> 4 is easy, its when the buyers office is looking at a 5th. Out of NFC Cliff X FC Fergie ( a double Druid granddaughter Badger on both sides) Hey I'm always up for another project pup .
> Re run of our 4 getting some snow weather exercise dogs being dogs
> 
> Snow day No school today - YouTube


See JAM...you are already at the trial and test might as well have 2 to run!!


----------



## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> Cocker National Champs.
> Opie plugs place board training.
> Nifty video.
> 
> 2014 Cocker Spaniel Championship held at Queensberry Estate, Scotland - YouTube


Neat video... very Royal. Being 1\4 Scotch and interested in all things Spaniel, I was wishing for more. Are these Paul French videos hard to get? Dauber let me borrow the 2013 and I watched it several times before passing it onto Natty Bumpo. The format of the DVD made attempts at making a backup unsuccessful. :-(



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Finally the wind let up enough to see and I could move the snow so we could play cocker board games yesterday.
> 
> 
> Cocker board games 1 26 14 - YouTube
> 
> 
> Now this is just one example of what we do. We worked some on the right and left backs yesterday mixed in with changing boards and waiting your turn. My goal with this is to give them all something to think about and to try to challenge them some to see what we need to be working on.
> 
> 
> Smoke and Zac have been learning right and left backs and are coming along. Still need to get more comfortable with the handler moving to greater distances.


Looks like you are having fun. Your dogs are fun to watch. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Looks like you are having fun. Your dogs are fun to watch.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


It is fun! There is some challenge keeping all 3 in line, giving Dante some fun and still keeping his standards up, giving the other 2 various tasks and challenges as well, occasionally pushing them past their limit then bringing it back to things they do well. 

This is a great time of year to work on control and basics. That frees up time during other seasons for more advanced bird work.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Good to see Team Brandy.
> Pups getting big, they just grow up way to fast!
> 
> What kind of introduction work have you been doing with the boy pups?



We have been working on obedience work, Drake is getting a lot of "come" work. He is stubborn. Drake has also decided that birds are better than bumpers so give me a bird or forget it. So all his bumpers now have wings on them. They both are still working on tether so they under stand that coming back is not a choice.


They have been working on quartering. Working on steading. Working on place board. Line manners. Marking drills. Both have now started to put up good hunts on their marks. when I get some time I will clean the 3 foot of snow of the training table and do some table work.


We have been do a lot of work with wing clipped birds up until the snow got to deep. They both handle birds very nicely. We have been using the same 3 or 4 birds for 3 months now.


Xander taught himself how to open the door on his wire crate. So he gets carbineers on his crate door now.


We are still teaching Drake that the cat litter box is not an all you can eat buffet. When we have him out of his crate in the house he is tethered to someone.


They love birds that's all I need to teach them what I want them to do. Brandy is getting ready for her hunt test season. She needs one more pass for her Champion Retriever title. Going to take her to some UKC upland test in March.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> See JAM...you are already at the trial and test might as well have 2 to run!!


I've run 2 in trials. Bullet and Stormy, and Chinook and Stormy. I'm terrible at getting to the line on time but not too early. Doubling that is extremely stressful! I've never had 2 dogs at HT's. That would be a little easier I think.

DAUBER... STOP THAT! DON'T GET ME THINKING ABOUT ANOTHER DOG!!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> You're being WAY too kind, Dauber.


Hey you are ruining my hard earned reputation. 

If your husband starts to question the pup we can take him for a few days so it isn't too obvious.


----------



## yooperguy

Hie On!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> If your husband starts to question the pup we can take him for a few days so it isn't too obvious.


I hope you realize you'd be consorting with the enemy. We'll have to wait and see how many Roadie has and also I only want a male. Maybe I'll be off the hook when she only has females.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I hope you realize you'd be consorting with the enemy. We'll have to wait and see how many Roadie has and also I only want a male. Maybe I'll be off the hook when she only has females.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh the twisted web we weave en we just try to get another pup!:lol:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doing wind sprints on a winter lane,


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Oh the twisted web we weave en we just try to get another pup!:lol:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Doing wind sprints on a winter lane,
> Zeta 1 31 14 - YouTube




Someone's having fun in the snow. Nice job, Zeta!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Oh the twisted web we weave en we just try to get another pup!:lol:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Doing wind sprints on a winter lane,
> Zeta 1 31 14 - YouTube


 Very nice Zeta! Good forward motion there.


----------



## Hunting with Drake

Nice retrieving!! Must be nice to only have a little snow :sad:


----------



## gundogguy

Hunting with Drake said:


> Nice retrieving!! Must be nice to only have a little snow :sad:


:lol: HwD here in St Joe County, Very southern part of the state we have easily 20 inches of base. I have not been in the field since 1/1/14

That video work-out was held in the plowed driveway. 
If I can plow it I can run it!


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> :lol: HwD here in St Joe County, Very southern part of the state we have easily 20 inches of base. I have not been in the field since 1/1/14
> 
> That video work-out was held in the plowed driveway.
> If I can plow it I can run it!


Same in Oakland County


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----------



## Hunting with Drake

gundogguy said:


> :lol: HwD here in St Joe County, Very southern part of the state we have easily 20 inches of base. I have not been in the field since 1/1/14
> 
> That video work-out was held in the plowed driveway.
> If I can plow it I can run it!


As of last week we have +134" of snow so far this year  
Training is all but impossible right now. I tried a little retrieving work with Drake in the field next to our house and the snow was up to my waste. Drake could run a little but not very far before he was completely covered up by the snow. I guess it's the price I pay for living in the snowbelt within the snowbelt.


----------



## gundogguy

Hunting with Drake said:


> As of last week we have +134" of snow so far this year
> Training is all but impossible right now. I tried a little retrieving work with Drake in the field next to our house and the snow was up to my waste. Drake could run a little but not very far before he was completely covered up by the snow. I guess it's the price I pay for living in the snowbelt within the snowbelt.


Do not feel bad the whole state is literally like that. I usually just do walk through drills.
Good training weather will be here soon and all you really want to do is be ready when you can put the hammer down!.


----------



## michgundog

One place where there isn't any snow is the state of Texas. I just found out that former Michigander and good friend Mike Pollack and his dog Rye won the SE Texas trial today. Rye only needs 4 more points for her AFC!! Way to go Mike and Rye! 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> One place where there isn't any snow is the state of Texas.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 No snow in southern Indiana neither or In Tennessee where the HOF trial will be run this week 2 opens and 2 amateur's Lot close than Texas!
The two dogs are in Tennessee


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> One place where there isn't any snow is the state of Texas. I just found out that former Michigander and good friend Mike Pollack and his dog Rye won the SE Texas trial today. Rye only needs 4 more points for her AFC!! Way to go Mike and Rye!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Congrats, Mike & Rye! Hie on!


----------



## dauber

Good job Rye!!

Good luck to those at the HOF trial. I hear rumors that the cockers maybe working on trials there in the future too.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Good job Rye!!
> 
> Good luck to those at the HOF trial. I hear rumors that the cockers maybe working on trials there in the future too.


Mike and Rye will be at the HOF trial. He's stationed in AR, good place to be this time of year. I heard its a great place for a trial. This time a year is always tricky driving. Here's a picture of mike and his blue ribbon.









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## gundogguy

to a warmer time during the year.
Tigers opening day is March 31st spring can not be far off now.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zmcf7aACns"]Zeta 2nd 7 Months - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> to a warmer time during the year.
> Tigers opening day is March 31st spring can not be far off now.
> 
> Zeta 2nd 7 Months - YouTube


I'm sweating just watching! Nice job Zeta.


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> mike and rye will be at the hof trial. He's stationed in ar, good place to be this time of year. I heard its a great place for a trial. This time a year is always tricky driving. Here's a picture of mike and his blue ribbon.
> View attachment 56771
> 
> 
> 
> posted using outdoor hub campfire





gundogguy said:


> to a warmer time during the year.
> Tigers opening day is march 31st spring can not be far off now.
> 
> zeta 2nd 7 months - youtube


"like"


----------



## gundogguy

Feb 6th
Hall of fame Trial Open placements Grand Junction Tennessee 
1st Mark Hairfield April
2nd Mike Wallace Kelli
3rd Mike Wallace Badger
4th Mike Wallace Cliff

Would any on have the Amateur winner and placements?


----------



## gundogguy

Winner and Placements 
Open All-Age 
1st Pete 
2nd Kelli 
3rd Cliff
all handle by Mike Wallace
4th ???

a big week for team Salmy Kennels
Kelli and Cliff 2 placements each
Mike Wallace 6 placements in two trials

Still have not heard about amateur AA placements


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Winner and Placements
> Open All-Age
> 1st Pete
> 2nd Kelli
> 3rd Cliff
> all handle by Mike Wallace
> 4th ???
> 
> a big week for team Salmy Kennels
> Kelli and Cliff 2 placements each
> Mike Wallace 6 placements in two trials
> 
> Still have not heard about amateur AA placements


Way to go team Wallace! Great start to the year.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Winner and Placements
> Open All-Age
> 1st Pete
> 2nd Kelli
> 3rd Cliff
> all handle by Mike Wallace
> 4th ???
> 
> a big week for team Salmy Kennels
> Kelli and Cliff 2 placements each
> Mike Wallace 6 placements in two trials
> 
> Still have not heard about amateur AA placements


Yeah... WOW! hey?


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Winner and Placements
> Open All-Age
> 1st Pete
> 2nd Kelli
> 3rd Cliff
> all handle by Mike Wallace
> 4th ???
> 
> a big week for team Salmy Kennels
> Kelli and Cliff 2 placements each
> Mike Wallace 6 placements in two trials
> 
> Still have not heard about amateur AA placements


Here's the AA placements per Mike P(sorry for any misspelled names:

1: Dean Rinke****cutter

2: Dave Sanford**bungey

3: Ben Cower*****misty

4: Dave Sanford**Zip



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----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Here's the AA placements per Mike P(sorry for any misspelled names:
> 
> 1: Dean Rinke****cutter
> 
> 2: Dave Sanford**bungey
> 
> 3: Ben Cower*****misty (Salmy Kennels)
> 
> 4: Dave Sanford**Zip
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks Mike! Which amateur stake were those placements for Feb 6th or Feb 8th?


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Thanks Mike! Which amateur stake were those placements for Feb 6th or Feb 8th?


I'm not sure what date? If I find out before someone else I'll post. 


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----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I'm not sure what date? If I find out before someone else I'll post.
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Thanks again! Sometime Parent Club events are tough to get results information.


----------



## gundogguy

Amateur AAStakes Hall OF fame Trial Feb 5-6

*1st **Raintree Swift Sails 'Cutter' 
Sire: AFC Raintree Top Sail
Dam: Cedar Boughs Swift
Breeder: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
Owner: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke 
Handler: Dean Reinke *


* 

2nd FC CFC Raintree's Sugar Britches of Salmy 'Sugar'
Sire: AFC Salmy's What's His Name
Dam: Carra Carousel of Glendevitt
Owner: Ben Cowan
Handler: Ben Cowan

3rd Grouse Moor Hazel 'Hazel'
Sire: NAFC FC AFC Beggarbush Clipper
Dam: AFC Grouse Moor Thatcher
Breeder: John and Christy Knowles 
Owner: Lea Ames
Hander: Lea Ames

4th FC AFC Lady neala Savoir Faire 'Neala'
Sire: Dansmirth's Tomahawk
Dam: Pine Shadow's Ispiedher
Breeder: Sophie Haglin
Owner: JP Martin
Handler: JP Martin

HOF Amateur AA FEB 7-8

1st Raintree Swift Sails 'Cutter' NEW AFC
Sire: AFC Raintree Top Sail
Dam: Cedar Boughs Swift
Breeder: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
Owner: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke 
Handler: Dean Reinke  

2nd FC CFC Raintree's Sugar Britches of Salmy 'Sugar'
Sire: AFC Salmy's What's His Name
Dam: Carra Carousel of Glendevitt
Owner: Ben Cowan
Handler: Ben Cowan

3rd Grouse Moor Hazel 'Hazel'
Sire: NAFC FC AFC Beggarbush Clipper
Dam: AFC Grouse Moor Thatcher
Breeder: John and Christy Knowles 
Owner: Lea Ames
Hander: Lea Ames

4th FC AFC Lady neala Savoir Faire 'Neala'
Sire: Dansmirth's Tomahawk
Dam: Pine Shadow's Ispiedher
Breeder: Sophie Haglin
Owner: JP Martin
Handler: JP Martin





*


----------



## Hunting with Drake

Finally Drake and I were able to get out and do some training today thanks to Mike Frederick at Opeongos training field. We have a lot of work to do  before spring.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Amateur AAStakes Hall OF fame Trial Feb 5-6
> 
> *1st **Raintree Swift Sails 'Cutter'
> Sire: AFC Raintree Top Sail
> Dam: Cedar Boughs Swift
> Breeder: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
> Owner: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
> Handler: Dean Reinke *
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 2nd FC CFC Raintree's Sugar Britches of Salmy 'Sugar'
> Sire: AFC Salmy's What's His Name
> Dam: Carra Carousel of Glendevitt
> Owner: Ben Cowan
> Handler: Ben Cowan
> 
> 3rd Grouse Moor Hazel 'Hazel'
> Sire: NAFC FC AFC Beggarbush Clipper
> Dam: AFC Grouse Moor Thatcher
> Breeder: John and Christy Knowles
> Owner: Lea Ames
> Hander: Lea Ames
> 
> 4th FC AFC Lady neala Savoir Faire 'Neala'
> Sire: Dansmirth's Tomahawk
> Dam: Pine Shadow's Ispiedher
> Breeder: Sophie Haglin
> Owner: JP Martin
> Handler: JP Martin
> 
> HOF Amateur AA FEB 7-8
> 
> 1st Raintree Swift Sails 'Cutter' NEW AFC
> Sire: AFC Raintree Top Sail
> Dam: Cedar Boughs Swift
> Breeder: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
> Owner: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
> Handler: Dean Reinke
> 
> 2nd FC CFC Raintree's Sugar Britches of Salmy 'Sugar'
> Sire: AFC Salmy's What's His Name
> Dam: Carra Carousel of Glendevitt
> Owner: Ben Cowan
> Handler: Ben Cowan
> 
> 3rd Grouse Moor Hazel 'Hazel'
> Sire: NAFC FC AFC Beggarbush Clipper
> Dam: AFC Grouse Moor Thatcher
> Breeder: John and Christy Knowles
> Owner: Lea Ames
> Hander: Lea Ames
> 
> 4th FC AFC Lady neala Savoir Faire 'Neala'
> Sire: Dansmirth's Tomahawk
> Dam: Pine Shadow's Ispiedher
> Breeder: Sophie Haglin
> Owner: JP Martin
> Handler: JP Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


So the placements were exactly the same both days ??


----------



## gundogguy

My bad! Copy paste not working, operator error.
Feb 7-8 Amateur 
*1st Raintree Swift Sails 'Cutter' New AFC!!!*


*Sire: AFC Raintree Top Sail
Dam: Cedar Boughs Swift
Breeder: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
Owner: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke 
Handler: Dean Reinke 

2nd AFC Edwardiana Happy MH 'Bunty'
Sire: EFC EDwardiana Rob
Dam: EFC Edwardiana Gypsy
Breeder: John Edwards
Owner: David Sanford 
Handler: David Sanford 

3rd FC CFC Fawnhaven's Misty of Salmy 'Misty'
Sire: FC AFC Pride N Joys Field Gryphon
Dam: Fawnhavens Shining White Dove
Breeder: Cindy Goode-Wilson
Owner: Mike Wallace
Handler: Ben Cowan

4th Dunnegan's Zipper SH 'Zip'
Sire: AFC Buccleuch Dusty of Ardyle
Dam: AFC Edwardiana Happy MH
Breeder: David and Missy Sanford
Owner: Missy and David Sanford 
Handler: David Sanford


Feb 5-6 amateur AA stake

Amateur AAStakes Hall OF fame Trial Feb 5-6

1st Raintree Swift Sails 'Cutter' 
Sire: AFC Raintree Top Sail
Dam: Cedar Boughs Swift
Breeder: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
Owner: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke 
Handler: Dean Reinke 




2nd FC CFC Raintree's Sugar Britches of Salmy 'Sugar'
Sire: AFC Salmy's What's His Name
Dam: Carra Carousel of Glendevitt
Owner: Ben Cowan
Handler: Ben Cowan

3rd Grouse Moor Hazel 'Hazel'
Sire: NAFC FC AFC Beggarbush Clipper
Dam: AFC Grouse Moor Thatcher
Breeder: John and Christy Knowles 
Owner: Lea Ames
Hander: Lea Ames

4th FC AFC Lady neala Savoir Faire 'Neala'
Sire: Dansmirth's Tomahawk
Dam: Pine Shadow's Ispiedher
Breeder: Sophie Haglin
Owner: JP Martin
Handler: JP Martin

Dean's Cutter dog won both amateur stakes that part is good to go! New AFC 
*


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> My bad! Copy paste not working, operator error.
> Feb 7-8 Amateur
> *1st Raintree Swift Sails 'Cutter' New AFC!!!*
> 
> 
> *Sire: AFC Raintree Top Sail
> Dam: Cedar Boughs Swift
> Breeder: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
> Owner: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
> Handler: Dean Reinke
> 
> 2nd AFC Edwardiana Happy MH 'Bunty'
> Sire: EFC EDwardiana Rob
> Dam: EFC Edwardiana Gypsy
> Breeder: John Edwards
> Owner: David Sanford
> Handler: David Sanford
> 
> 3rd FC CFC Fawnhaven's Misty of Salmy 'Misty'
> Sire: FC AFC Pride N Joys Field Gryphon
> Dam: Fawnhavens Shining White Dove
> Breeder: Cindy Goode-Wilson
> Owner: Mike Wallace
> Handler: Ben Cowan
> 
> 4th Dunnegan's Zipper SH 'Zip'
> Sire: AFC Buccleuch Dusty of Ardyle
> Dam: AFC Edwardiana Happy MH
> Breeder: David and Missy Sanford
> Owner: Missy and David Sanford
> Handler: David Sanford
> 
> 
> Feb 5-6 amateur AA stake
> 
> Amateur AAStakes Hall OF fame Trial Feb 5-6
> 
> 1st Raintree Swift Sails 'Cutter'
> Sire: AFC Raintree Top Sail
> Dam: Cedar Boughs Swift
> Breeder: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
> Owner: Catherine Lewis and Dean Reinke
> Handler: Dean Reinke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2nd FC CFC Raintree's Sugar Britches of Salmy 'Sugar'
> Sire: AFC Salmy's What's His Name
> Dam: Carra Carousel of Glendevitt
> Owner: Ben Cowan
> Handler: Ben Cowan
> 
> 3rd Grouse Moor Hazel 'Hazel'
> Sire: NAFC FC AFC Beggarbush Clipper
> Dam: AFC Grouse Moor Thatcher
> Breeder: John and Christy Knowles
> Owner: Lea Ames
> Hander: Lea Ames
> 
> 4th FC AFC Lady neala Savoir Faire 'Neala'
> Sire: Dansmirth's Tomahawk
> Dam: Pine Shadow's Ispiedher
> Breeder: Sophie Haglin
> Owner: JP Martin
> Handler: JP Martin
> 
> Dean's Cutter dog won both amateur stakes that part is good to go! New AFC
> *


Congrats to all! Nice job!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Congrats to all! Nice job!


Nice start for Mr Reinke and Cutter. Congrats to all as well. 

JAM, did cutter run in our trial?


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Nice start for Mr Reinke and Cutter. Congrats to all as well.
> 
> JAM, did cutter run in our trial?


I believe Cutter scratched just before the start of our trial. He sure showed his/her stuff at the HOF trial though.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I believe Cutter scratched just before the start of our trial. He sure showed his/her stuff at the HOF trial though.


Thanks. I didn't remember Dean running a Cutter.


----------



## dauber

Spring is on it's way! It is the first morning in double digits for weeks here so things must be looking up!! Of course there are winds steady at 20mph gusting to over 30mph, but heck that is still better than even yesterday at -22.


Here is a short video of last fall's Cocker National mostly with Paul McGagh in it.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Spring is on it's way! It is the first morning in double digits for weeks here so things must be looking up!! Of course there are winds steady at 20mph gusting to over 30mph, but heck that is still better than even yesterday at -22.
> 
> 
> Here is a short video of last fall's Cocker National mostly with Paul McGagh in it.
> 
> The National Cocker Championship - YouTube


Thanks for posting the video Steve. 

It's suppose to be above freezing next Tues. I'm sure there's still some major snow on the way


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----------



## michgundog

Anyone ever heard of a dog parade?

http://news.yahoo.com/bird-dog-lovers-descend-milwaukee-185946087.html


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----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Spring is on it's way! It is the first morning in double digits for weeks here so things must be looking up!! Of course there are winds steady at 20mph gusting to over 30mph, but heck that is still better than even yesterday at -22.
> 
> 
> Here is a short video of last fall's Cocker National mostly with Paul McGagh in it.
> 
> The National Cocker Championship - YouTube


Thanks for posting the video, Steve. Nice way to pass the time in this frigid weather. Looks like next week is heading for the 20's. I can hardly wait!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

dauber said:


> Spring is on it's way! It is the first morning in double digits for weeks here so things must be looking up!! Of course there are winds steady at 20mph gusting to over 30mph, but heck that is still better than even yesterday at -22.
> 
> 
> Here is a short video of last fall's Cocker National mostly with Paul McGagh in it.
> 
> The National Cocker Championship - YouTube


Thank you for this


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Spring is on it's way! It is the first morning in double digits for weeks here so things must be looking up!! Of course there are winds steady at 20mph gusting to over 30mph, but heck that is still better than even yesterday at -22.
> 
> 
> Here is a short video of last fall's Cocker National mostly with Paul McGagh in it.
> 
> The National Cocker Championship - YouTube


Thanks Dauber Nice to see something about the EC Champs.
One comment and one question.

The Bismarck Tribune could not show a pheasant being shot, must be a union thing!
It is just not very spanielly without a flush, a bang, and then the retrieve. The whole video gave the impression that Cockers are just retrievers.

Have you heard anything about the Paul French Video production of that Championship?


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Thanks Dauber Nice to see something about the EC Champs.
> One comment and one question.
> 
> The Bismarck Tribune could not show a pheasant being shot, must be a union thing!
> It is just not very spanielly without a flush, a bang, and then the retrieve. The whole video gave the impression that Cockers are just retrievers.
> 
> Have you heard anything about the Paul French Video production of that Championship?




The question I really don't have an answer for. I checked French's web site and saw nothing about it so I assume nothing is happening. If we can do a little field work before early April we may enter the Fox Valley spring trial and I should get the lowdown there.


The comment...well the Bismarck Tribune did not impress me! My guess is they couldn't get any of the shots on video. I know the crew that came in to video it were "pros" that video for the Amazing Race TV show and I have a feeling from how much trouble they were having getting good video is why Paul French isn't doing anything with it. Their article http://bismarcktribune.com/news/loc...cle_be5470ce-3cfa-11e3-b318-0019bb2963f4.html was full of wrong info such as the Wiley's having 8 NFC's, they have 8 FC's, the trial being 4 land series, it was 5. Plus that picture of Olivia's dog handing off the hen caused us LOADS of extra work since they couldn't see the leg band. 


Also Natty around the 1:30 mark in the video is Snicket.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> The question I really don't have an answer for. I checked French's web site and saw nothing about it so I assume nothing is happening. If we can do a little field work before early April we may enter the Fox Valley spring trial and I should get the lowdown there.
> 
> 
> The comment...well the Bismarck Tribune did not impress me! My guess is they couldn't get any of the shots on video. I know the crew that came in to video it were "pros" that video for the Amazing Race TV show and I have a feeling from how much trouble they were having getting good video is why Paul French isn't doing anything with it. Their article http://bismarcktribune.com/news/loc...cle_be5470ce-3cfa-11e3-b318-0019bb2963f4.html was full of wrong info such as the Wiley's having 8 NFC's, they have 8 FC's, the trial being 4 land series, it was 5. Plus that picture of Olivia's dog handing off the hen caused us LOADS of extra work since they couldn't see the leg band.
> 
> 
> Also Natty around the 1:30 mark in the video is Snicket.


Thanks for that informative posting Steve. Sure helps break up the monotony of blowing snow!!

Will check out Snicket in action; our Rocky's littermate sister. She's now placed three times in the Nationals. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

NB


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Hey guys can anyone tell me what kind of drills I can do with a dummy launcher? I have had a RRT launcher for months but never had dummies for it and just purchased some. What can I do with it other than lengthening his marks? Videos greatly appreciated if possible


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Hey guys can anyone tell me what kind of drills I can do with a dummy launcher? I have had a RRT launcher for months but never had dummies for it and just purchased some. What can I do with it other than lengthening his marks? Videos greatly appreciated if possible


Bumper Launchers are more in tune with the non slip culture, so there is not a lot of info out there about using them in spaniel training. For the most part they really do not fit in with what most of the spaniel culture is about. Stand alone marking drills are a very obvious use of the B.Launcher of those there are plenty of retriever videos in Youtube

That being said they are a another tool-in-the-box so to speak that much or little can be created to exercise and condition dogs.
For myself I only use them on a broke dog, a dog that is steady to wing and shot. I see no value in a chasing pup after the bumper that has been launched.
As with any training tool having a clear goal and what you want to accomplish is job 1

With that in mind, My primary use of the B. launcher is that of a "diversion bird" either immediately after a dog flushes a live bird or as the dog is returning on a retrieve. In both cases I maintain steadiness and control. 
In the case of bumper being use directly after the flush the bumper becomes the "Go bird" and the shot flyer becomes the "memory bird". 
In the case that the bumper is launched as the dog returns with the primary mark,the shot flyer. The dog is expected to finish the retrieve of the flyer and then retrieve the bumper. 
In either the situation the person doing the launching is usually 20 to 70 yards away from the dog.

All of this leads to precision responsiveness, marking and manners and proper delivery. Great fun! Here soon as the weather breaks I have 2 Reggie and Zeta dogs that are more than ready for this kind of work. we will video those for sure.

As with any exercise that does not include flushing birds be careful not over do them. Mechanical situations I usually limit to 2-3 times per month, if that often.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Thanks Hal that helps. I took the dog out onto the lake today just to try it out. Only gave him 4 retrieves, he broke on the first one which surprised me so I yelled NO HUP and he sat. After that he was steady and waited to be sent for the other 3, new situation threw him off I guess. One thing I will note is that I figured it would shoot farther than it does. I can almost throw as far as it shoots (I'm using yellow loads). So I walked out about 30 yards before firing it to get him a little more distance. One wasn't much of a launch whatsoever, not sure if it was the load or from the snow/wet. Neat tool for sure but I'm not sure how much I will use it. Would be okay for water work to give him that little bit of extra distance but I'm not sure what else. He's a good retriever so I don't think he needs tons of marks thrown/launched for him. I'd rather spend my energy and time on birds. Another thing I noticed was how unbelievably loud those .22 loads are. Never realized how much a barrel muffles the sound, my ear is still ringing from it. Didn't phase him any but it sure got me lol.


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> One thing I will note is that I figured it would shoot farther than it does. I can almost throw as far as it shoots (I'm using yellow loads). So I walked out about 30 yards before firing it to get him a little more distance. One wasn't much of a launch whatsoever, not sure if it was the load or from the* snow/wet*. Neat tool for sure but I'm not sure how much I will use it. l.


Here' the deal the key is not how far the launcher sends the dummy, rather how far away is the launcher from the dog, when the bumper is launched. Increasing distance from the dog is always a good exercise as long as the remains steady and makes the mark, with out handle.


I can only imagine how many static bumper marks Jake has made and retrieved. I say static because bumpers are very low on the stimuli scale when compared to a flushing bird.
But what the flushing dog needs is to be able to do go in on a bird using his nose, stick his head into the nest, flush the bird, remained composed and stop or sit down and thoroughly watch the flight path and fall of the bird being shot and then wait for the instruction to proceed with the retrieve or not to retrieve what ever the situation dictates. This can be very stimulating for the young dog and his basics best be in place. Training with flyers is a long costly procedure but it is a must if one is going to develop a 1st class Spaniel.


----------



## gundogguy

Has any one acquired or seen the new FB Springer book
"In A More Perfect Manner"
By V. Thomas and P. Bramwell ?


----------



## Unregistered4

Cocker...springer...cocker...springer...

Oh the pains of deciding. 

I think back to all of the springers I had growing up...or while I was getting older I should say...and what joy they were. And then I think back about the day Rodney's cocker, Scout, pulled that big a** grouse from underneath that log, after being wing-tip by me, just shortly after Rod said, "Let's give him just a few more seconds here." The bird had sailed probably hundred yards, across a small creek and out of sight, but he found it.

My wife thinks she's getting a french bull dog for the house after her little Japanese Chin croaks...but I got news for her.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Has any one acquired or seen the new FB Springer book
> "In A More Perfect Manner"
> By V. Thomas and P. Bramwell ?


No I haven't talked to anyone who has read it yet. You'll have to let us know how it is.


----------



## dauber

Unregistered4 said:


> Cocker...springer...cocker...springer...
> 
> Oh the pains of deciding.
> 
> I think back to all of the springers I had growing up...or while I was getting older I should say...and what joy they were. And then I think back about the day Rodney's cocker, Scout, pulled that big a** grouse from underneath that log, after being wing-tip by me, just shortly after Rod said, "Let's give him just a few more seconds here." The bird had sailed probably hundred yards, across a small creek and out of sight, but he found it.
> 
> My wife thinks she's getting a french bull dog for the house after her little Japanese Chin croaks...but I got news for her.



I don't think you would go wrong with either if you like the "spaniel style". They both will work similarly. As Kieth Erlandson says" the springer is like a foot soldier doing what his commander says, the cocker is more like a sniper who thinks they know better themselves. Cockers are a little mischievous, personally I like that. Check out the SMSSTC. Should get a good look at springers there and Dale Young has a real nice cocker.


----------



## gundogguy

Unregistered4 said:


> Cocker...springer...cocker...springer...
> 
> Oh the pains of deciding.
> My wife thinks she's getting a french bull dog for the house after her little Japanese Chin croaks...but I got news for her.


Wee bit of difference in the energy levels, when comparing FB Cockers or Springers to French Bull dogs and Japanese Chins. King Charles Cav. Spaniel a fairer comparison and they do make fine lap dogs.



dauber said:


> I don't think you would go wrong with either if you like the "spaniel style". They both will work similarly. As Kieth Erlandson says" the springer is like a foot soldier doing what his commander says, the cocker is more like a sniper who thinks they know better themselves. Cockers are a little mischievous, personally I like that. Check out the SMSSTC. Should get a good look at springers there and Dale Young has a real nice cocker.


Good analogy Dauber and Keith,RIP


----------



## Unregistered4

I'm not sure how much longer this Japanese chin is going to be around, their life expectancy is around nine...he's fourteen. Now, don't get me wrong...I love most dogs, regardless of wherther or not they hunt birds. But, this breeds claim to fame is that it's "the most cat like dog of all the dog breeds". Now, who in their right mind would want a dog that is like a cat? Only the Japanese would think that breeding a dog to be like a cat was a good idea.

Anyway...

I've had both cockers and springers before, for hunting and in the house, and part of me wants a cocker...but part of me needs a springer.

Funny story...

I'll never forget the first bird our cocker ever flushed. We were working an old overgrown with weeds bean field, for some reason it hadn't been picked and was left standing. Maybe, it was because the beans were ankle high and the weeds were knee high.

Anyhow...

Brandy is working ahead of me, she's about six months old at the time, I can see she's getting birdy as her tail goes crazy with excitement. Sure enough, she pushes a big old rooster, with tail feathers as long as a mans arm, into the air. It comes out of the weeds about ten yards in front of her, she stops, looks over her shoulder at me, and I swear, the look on her face said, "DID YOU SEE THE SIZE OF THAT THING!"


----------



## dauber

Unregistered4 said:


> I'm not sure how much longer this Japanese chin is going to be around, their life expectancy is around nine...he's fourteen. Now, don't get me wrong...I love most dogs, regardless of wherther or not they hunt birds. But, this breeds claim to fame is that it's "the most cat like dog of all the dog breeds". Now, who in their right mind would want a dog that is like a cat? Only the Japanese would think that breeding a dog to be like a cat was a good idea.


A couple of our cockers lick their paws and wipe their faces with the freshly liked paw, sortof cat like. A couple of them also liked sleeping on the back of the couch. Although Zac is trying to see if he can clear the coffee table in one leap!


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> ...Although Zac is trying to see if he can clear the coffee table in one leap!


I'll bet he can! 

Edit - wait.. Do you mean leap over it without touching it? Or do you mean CLEAR everything off it in one leap? I'll change my wager to include both. LOL!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## gundogguy

yooperguy2003 said:


> I'll bet he can!
> 
> Edit - wait.. Do you mean leap over it without touching it? Or do you mean CLEAR everything off it in one leap? I'll change my wager to include both. LOL!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


:lol: easy money I would take some of that bet! As for coffee tables we remove them years ago! Every one of our dogs thought they were just indoor place board training tables. So to resolve conflicts we just garaged sale them out of here! Now for the Lazy boy recliners Zeta has clear them twice...had to have a come to Jesus meeting on that issue. 
You just gotta love dogs that love an obstacle or challenge
.


----------



## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> :lol: easy money I would take some of that bet! As for coffee tables we remove them years ago! Every one of our dogs thought they were just indoor place board training tables. So to resolve conflicts we just garaged sale them out of here! Now for the Lazy boy recliners Zeta has clear them twice...had to have a come to Jesus meeting on that issue.
> You just gotta love dogs that love an obstacle or challenge
> .


LOL! My ess Belle now thinks that my waist high workbench in the garage/workshop is a place board. From a seated position at my feet to clearing everything off it in one athletic leap. She's got springs for back legs! Heh, heh, heh...




Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## michgundog

yooperguy2003 said:


> LOL! My ess Belle now thinks that my waist high workbench in the garage/workshop is a place board. From a seated position at my feet to clearing everything off it in one athletic leap. She's got springs for back legs! Heh, heh, heh...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Talk about a springer with an athletic leap. I bought a springer years ago who's mother could leap up on the saddle of a horse. And she was on the smaller scale as far as springers go. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> Talk about a springer with an athletic leap. I bought a springer years ago who's mother could leap up on the saddle of a horse. And she was on the smaller scale as far as springers go.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Now that's a jump!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## I'm with Brandy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Thanks Hal that helps. I took the dog out onto the lake today just to try it out. Only gave him 4 retrieves, he broke on the first one which surprised me so I yelled NO HUP and he sat. After that he was steady and waited to be sent for the other 3, new situation threw him off I guess. One thing I will note is that I figured it would shoot farther than it does. I can almost throw as far as it shoots (I'm using yellow loads). So I walked out about 30 yards before firing it to get him a little more distance. One wasn't much of a launch whatsoever, not sure if it was the load or from the snow/wet. Neat tool for sure but I'm not sure how much I will use it. Would be okay for water work to give him that little bit of extra distance but I'm not sure what else. He's a good retriever so I don't think he needs tons of marks thrown/launched for him. I'd rather spend my energy and time on birds. Another thing I noticed was how unbelievably loud those .22 loads are. Never realized how much a barrel muffles the sound, my ear is still ringing from it. Didn't phase him any but it sure got me lol.



I would recommend avoiding launching bumpers from the dogs side. The dog needs to learn to look out. When you launch or throw from their side they look at you. Use your place board have the dog sit on it and then walk out to launch the bumper. If you launch it away from the dog then you can run to the bumper and scoop it up if the dog breaks. No reason to be harsh or yell no, just heal the dog back to the place board and try again. The dog will learn quickly that if it breaks there is no retrieve. When the dog does the retrieve make your way back to the place board to receive the bumper. Better yet higher a neighbor kid to throw bumpers for you. I pay $15.00/hour to have bumpers thrown for me. Or I will use my thunder launchers. Find someone in your area that is dog training and take turns throwing for each other.


If you don't have a place board just use a carpet sample. If the dog steps of just give them a grunt and put them back on it.


----------



## gundogguy

Brian Miller's new Cocker pup! Not only being born during the toughest winter in 65 years here in Michigan, and has also lost living room privileges for the time being. Hopefully the little guy gets an Out-of Jail card soon!
Rumor has it the Brian got this pup from Steve Collins.. Hopefully Brian can join in with 906 training group this spring and summer.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Brian Miller's new Cocker pup! Not only being born during the toughest winter in 65 years here in Michigan, and has also lost living room privileges for the time being. Hopefully the little guy gets an Out-of Jail card soon!
> Rumor has it the Brian got this pup from Steve Collins.. Hopefully Brian can join in with 906 training group this spring and summer.


What a cutie! Looks so sad sitting in doggie jail.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Brian Miller's new Cocker pup! Not only being born during the toughest winter in 65 years here in Michigan, and has also lost living room privileges for the time being. Hopefully the little guy gets an Out-of Jail card soon!
> Rumor has it the Brian got this pup from Steve Collins.. Hopefully Brian can join in with 906 training group this spring and summer.


What Me??? What'd I do?? 

Look at that face, Look at those sad little Spaniel eyes. Aaauuuwwwww.

Cute Pup!


----------



## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> Brian Miller's new Cocker pup! Not only being born during the toughest winter in 65 years here in Michigan, and has also lost living room privileges for the time being. Hopefully the little guy gets an Out-of Jail card soon!
> Rumor has it the Brian got this pup from Steve Collins.. Hopefully Brian can join in with 906 training group this spring and summer.


Yep. Too cute... In the slammer already... LOL

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Brian Miller's new Cocker pup! Not only being born during the toughest winter in 65 years here in Michigan, and has also lost living room privileges for the time being. Hopefully the little guy gets an Out-of Jail card soon!
> Rumor has it the Brian got this pup from Steve Collins.. Hopefully Brian can join in with 906 training group this spring and summer.


Looks just like his daddy. Very well bred pup! We welcome them to 906.


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> Cincinnati Springer trial this weekend 20 open dogs 13 amateur 5 puppies.
> weather forecast calling for 8-12 inches of snow should be interesting!
> Mush on! oh meant Hie on!


 
The weather man over shot the forecast snow fall was much lighter than called for 

Open AA results 20 dogs entered
*1st Place AFC Sky Diamond 'Lucy'
Sire: Dansmirth's Tomahawk
Dam: FC Goshens Katydid
Breeder: Marie Langhans
Owner: Kim Hansen
Handler: Ken Willis

2nd Place Voe Geez Pheasant Finder 'Dolby'
Sire: Craney Hill Speed Racer
Dam: Worspans Second Eclipse
Breeder: Keith Nelson
Owner: Jerry Lizalek
Handler: Ken Willis

3rd Place Salmy's Traditional Freedom 'Pete'
Sire: FC Sunrise Freedom
Dam: Sprightly Sassafras
Breeder: Nathaneal Munson
Owner: Paul Johanns
Handler: Mike Wallace

4th Place Raymonds Rock River Rumble 'Rumble'
Sire: FC Expressways My Buddy Luke MH
Dam: FC Rock Rivers Delight MH
Breeder: Jeff Schwartz
Owner: Daniel Long
Handler: Ken Willis*

AM all age 13 dogs entered
*1st Place Prince Padraig of Rockhaven 'Paddy' New AFC!!!
Sire: FC AFC Woodstorm Snow Viper
Dam: Rockhaven's Princess Sophiette
Breeder: Elaine Vanderslice
Owner: James O'Keefe and Elaine Vanderslice
Handler: Elaine Vanderslice

2nd Place Rockhaven's Lady Caera 'Caera'
Sire: FC Lighthouse On THe Lam
Dam: Rockhaven's Princess Maggie
Breeder: James O'Keefe
Owner: James O'Keefe and Elaine Vanderslice
Handler: James O'Keefe

3rd Place Doorcreek Da Bud 'Bud'
Sire: Doorcreek Handsome Devil
Dam: Doorcreek Chance's Mini Me
Breeder: Chuck Nelson
Owner: Chuck Nelson
Handler: Chuck Nelson

4th Place Wonmore Blue 'Lue'
Sire: FC AFC CFC Hellfire's Fast Track MH 
Dam: Ferndelle's Daphne Moonlight Spring
Breeder: Danelle Oliver
Owner: Paul Haering
Handler: Paul Haering*​ 

* 
​*​


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> The weather man over shot the forecast snow fall was much lighter than called for
> 
> Open AA results 20 dogs entered
> *1st Place AFC Sky Diamond 'Lucy'
> Sire: Dansmirth's Tomahawk
> Dam: FC Goshens Katydid
> Breeder: Marie Langhans
> Owner: Kim Hansen
> Handler: Ken Willis
> 
> 2nd Place Voe Geez Pheasant Finder 'Dolby'
> Sire: Craney Hill Speed Racer
> Dam: Worspans Second Eclipse
> Breeder: Keith Nelson
> Owner: Jerry Lizalek
> Handler: Ken Willis
> 
> 3rd Place Salmy's Traditional Freedom 'Pete'
> Sire: FC Sunrise Freedom
> Dam: Sprightly Sassafras
> Breeder: Nathaneal Munson
> Owner: Paul Johanns
> Handler: Mike Wallace
> 
> 4th Place Raymonds Rock River Rumble 'Rumble'
> Sire: FC Expressways My Buddy Luke MH
> Dam: FC Rock Rivers Delight MH
> Breeder: Jeff Schwartz
> Owner: Daniel Long
> Handler: Ken Willis*
> 
> AM all age 13 dogs entered
> *1st Place Prince Padraig of Rockhaven 'Paddy' New AFC!!!
> Sire: FC AFC Woodstorm Snow Viper
> Dam: Rockhaven's Princess Sophiette
> Breeder: Elaine Vanderslice
> Owner: James O'Keefe and Elaine Vanderslice
> Handler: Elaine Vanderslice
> 
> 2nd Place Rockhaven's Lady Caera 'Caera'
> Sire: FC Lighthouse On THe Lam
> Dam: Rockhaven's Princess Maggie
> Breeder: James O'Keefe
> Owner: James O'Keefe and Elaine Vanderslice
> Handler: James O'Keefe
> 
> 3rd Place Doorcreek Da Bud 'Bud'
> Sire: Doorcreek Handsome Devil
> Dam: Doorcreek Chance's Mini Me
> Breeder: Chuck Nelson
> Owner: Chuck Nelson
> Handler: Chuck Nelson
> 
> 4th Place Wonmore Blue 'Lue'
> Sire: FC AFC CFC Hellfire's Fast Track MH
> Dam: Ferndelle's Daphne Moonlight Spring
> Breeder: Danelle Oliver
> Owner: Paul Haering
> Handler: Paul Haering*​
> 
> *
> ​*​


Congrats to all!

Thanks for the info, GDG!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Congrats to all!
> 
> Thanks for the info, GDG!






Congrats to all and especially JAM's buddy Chuck!!


Hey JAM when are the puppy pic's coming??? Jeepers Creepers we're all waiting!!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

I guess I should check in more often Jam you got a new puppy? I will be heading to WI in two weeks for an upland test I will give a honk on the horn when I drive past. Not sure how things will go with all the snow. The test is down in Eagle WI area at the Ottawa training ground.


Keith how is Drake doing with the training? The boys missed seeing him at training.


Did you guys see the article by Dave Carty in the last issue of Gun Dog. It was titled Shooting Safety.


I agree with the safety part of the article but this guy is sadly miss informed about hunting dogs. This is a quote form the article.


The first is to be aware of where your dog is at all times. This is easier when hunting over the pointing breeds than when hunting over the flushers like labs and spaniels


What a load of crap makes me wonder if the guy has ever hunted with a bird dog. He must have a boot licker pointing dog.:lol:


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> I guess I should check in more often Jam you got a new puppy? I will be heading to WI in two weeks for an upland test I will give a honk on the horn when I drive past. Not sure how things will go with all the snow. The test is down in Eagle WI area at the Ottawa training ground.
> 
> 
> Keith how is Drake doing with the training? The boys missed seeing him at training.
> 
> 
> Did you guys see the article by Dave Carty in the last issue of Gun Dog. It was titled Shooting Safety.
> 
> 
> I agree with the safety part of the article but this guy is sadly miss informed about hunting dogs. This is a quote form the article.
> 
> 
> The first is to be aware of where your dog is at all times. This is easier when hunting over the pointing breeds than when hunting over the flushers like labs and spaniels
> 
> 
> What a load of crap makes me wonder if the guy has ever hunted with a bird dog. He must have a boot licker pointing dog.:lol:
> [/COLOR]
> [/COLOR]




He lives and breathes!

Concerning "Gun Dog" thanks for the heads up though I gave up on that publication years ago. It always reminds of a dog show magazine we use to take eons ago.
The saying prolly applies here Believe half of what you hear and none of what you read.
Chances are the author has never shot over any type of flushing dog! Which is a good thing every one should take him off their puppy buyers list and do a spaniel a favor!
Nice to hear from Doug!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Congrats to all and especially JAM's buddy Chuck!!
> 
> 
> Hey JAM when are the puppy pic's coming??? Jeepers Creepers we're all waiting!!


Yeah... Chuck Nelson is one of two of my favorite judges. (He and Skip Smith were the judges when Bullet won the TVESSC's 2008 trial) 

Pics will be coming soon. I have to plan another photo shoot now that his eyes are open. I will now be known as, "Jeepers Keeper" - well as soon as I get him. 

For those that don't know, I'm getting a new ESS puppy. His name will be, "Winterwind's Grouse Woods Wrangler" - call name, "Jeepers". He was born on 2/16/14 and is by: Strong's Winterwind Sam (ENFC Moonreed Flush x EFC Kidnais Clover) X Winterwind's Rock & Roadie (Winterwind's Artful Dodger - son of NAFC Lighthouse Upcountry Amos X Manitoulin Chinook Wind)

I'm so excited!


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Yeah... Chuck Nelson is one of two of my favorite judges. (He and Skip Smith were the judges when Bullet won the TVESSC's 2008 trial)
> 
> Pics will be coming soon. I have to plan another photo shoot now that his eyes are open. I will now be known as, "Jeepers Keeper" - well as soon as I get him.
> 
> For those that don't know, I'm getting a new ESS puppy. His name will be, "Winterwind's Grouse Woods Wrangler" - call name, "Jeepers". He was born on 2/16/14 and is by: Strong's Winterwind Sam (ENFC Moonreed Flush x EFC Kidnais Clover) X Winterwind's Rock & Roadie (Winterwind's Artful Dodger - son of NAFC Lighthouse Upcountry Amos X Manitoulin Chinook Wind)
> 
> I'm so excited!



Well congrats Jeeper's Keeper! Look forward to the pics and hope to meet the little fella too!


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> Yeah... Chuck Nelson is one of two of my favorite judges. (He and Skip Smith were the judges when Bullet won the TVESSC's 2008 trial)
> 
> Pics will be coming soon. I have to plan another photo shoot now that his eyes are open. I will now be known as, "Jeepers Keeper" - well as soon as I get him.
> 
> For those that don't know, I'm getting a new ESS puppy. His name will be, "Winterwind's Grouse Woods Wrangler" - call name, "Jeepers". He was born on 2/16/14 and is by: Strong's Winterwind Sam (ENFC Moonreed Flush x EFC Kidnais Clover) X Winterwind's Rock & Roadie (Winterwind's Artful Dodger - son of NAFC Lighthouse Upcountry Amos X Manitoulin Chinook Wind)
> 
> I'm so excited!


Congrats!!! 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Yeah... Chuck Nelson is one of two of my favorite judges. (He and Skip Smith were the judges when Bullet won the TVESSC's 2008 trial)
> 
> Pics will be coming soon. I have to plan another photo shoot now that his eyes are open. I will now be known as, "Jeepers Keeper" - well as soon as I get him.
> 
> For those that don't know, I'm getting a new ESS puppy. His name will be, "Winterwind's Grouse Woods Wrangler" - call name, "Jeepers". He was born on 2/16/14 and is by: Strong's Winterwind Sam (ENFC Moonreed Flush x EFC Kidnais Clover) X Winterwind's Rock & Roadie (Winterwind's Artful Dodger - son of NAFC Lighthouse Upcountry Amos X Manitoulin Chinook Wind)
> 
> I'm so excited!



How's the doghouse??? We're going to have a fun summer!!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> Yeah... Chuck Nelson is one of two of my favorite judges. (He and Skip Smith were the judges when Bullet won the TVESSC's 2008 trial)
> 
> Pics will be coming soon. I have to plan another photo shoot now that his eyes are open. I will now be known as, "Jeepers Keeper" - well as soon as I get him.
> 
> For those that don't know, I'm getting a new ESS puppy. His name will be, "Winterwind's Grouse Woods Wrangler" - call name, "Jeepers". He was born on 2/16/14 and is by: Strong's Winterwind Sam (ENFC Moonreed Flush x EFC Kidnais Clover) X Winterwind's Rock & Roadie (Winterwind's Artful Dodger - son of NAFC Lighthouse Upcountry Amos X Manitoulin Chinook Wind)
> 
> I'm so excited!


*BIG CONGRATS* on the new puppers, JAM

There's nothing like puppy breath to say "Springtime in 'da UP".  And royally bred too.

No sure about Steve's reference to "the doghouse" but, I've always found that its easier to ask "forgiveness" than it is the ask "permission". Its worked a few times for me, anyways.

Look forward to the pics.

NB


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> How's the doghouse??? We're going to have a fun summer!!


Well... I haven't been evicted. I've been hauling firewood to prove I'm still a keeper - not just Jeepers Keeper. 

I'm sure hubby will get over it. He always does.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Well... I haven't been evicted. I've been hauling firewood to prove I'm still a keeper - not just Jeepers Keeper.
> 
> I'm sure hubby will get over it. He always does.


Good to hear. Mrs D and I were going to call in a pizza order for ya if it wasn't going ok!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Good to hear. Mrs D and I were going to call in a pizza order for ya if it wasn't going ok!


Bob offered me a spot in his spare room. He has kennels in that room and said he can put a board on top of them for me. This seems like a good idea since it'll be ready for me and my dogs.

And thanks! I like pepperoni, mushrooms and black olives. Onions are optional.

Looks like I'm all set. New puppy, place to sleep for the dogs and me and pizza. Life is good!

~Jeepers Keeper


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Bob offered me a spot in his spare room. He has kennels in that room and said he can put a board on top of them for me. This seems like a good idea since it'll be ready for me and my dogs.
> 
> And thanks! I like pepperoni, mushrooms and black olives. Onions are optional.
> 
> Looks like I'm all set. New puppy, place to sleep for the dogs and me and pizza. Life is good!
> 
> ~Jeepers Keeper


Jam, Good to hear, many great training days ahead in 2014! I just know you will have a ball, with your new guy!


----------



## JAM

Thank you everyone. Get ready for the pictures to start flowing once he's home. Stormy's 5 1/2 so it's been a while since I've had a puppy. It's great to have the wealth of knowledge available on this site for advice and training tips. He should be home around the middle to end of April. Hope the snow's gone by then.


----------



## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> just remembering a better time of year, when like minded friends gather for some quality time training with their dogs!


like!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Just remembering a better time of year, when like minded friends gather for some quality time training with their dogs!


What is that weird stringy brown stuff on the ground?


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> like!


Yeah... We had a little taste of 50+ F. earlier this week which did a nice job of knocking down some of the snow. I'm REALLY sick of the cold after that little taste of spring. It was -9 F. this morning. UGH!

I hope we don't get the "St. Paddy's Day Storm" which the U.P. has experienced quite often. I can remember one of those storms in about 1987-88 that dumped 15" of snow on us. I had to drive through that to get to work in Marquette on unplowed roads. Good thing I had 4WD or I wouldn't have made it. I guess that's why it's so memorable.


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Just remembering a better time of year, when like minded friends gather for some quality time training with their dogs!


Agree!









Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> What is that weird stringy brown stuff on the ground?


I don't remember but it sure looks good!


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Yeah... We had a little taste of 50+ F. earlier this week which did a nice job of knocking down some of the snow. I'm REALLY sick of the cold after that little taste of spring. It was -9 F. this morning. UGH!
> 
> I hope we don't get the "St. Paddy's Day Storm" which the U.P. has experienced quite often. I can remember one of those storms in about 1987-88 that dumped 15" of snow on us. I had to drive through that to get to work in Marquette on unplowed roads. Good thing I had 4WD or I wouldn't have made it. I guess that's why it's so memorable.


I remember that storm, had a group in at the hunt club for a tower shoot, as I recall we got saddled with 10 inches in one day
I threw 250 pheasants that day for a group. It was wild at times Denny Cortaid Pheasants were invisible during the snow squalls that came through. Most of the guys could not go out for the walk-up after wards, do to conditions. It was a great training week that follow shooting the left overs from the St Paddy's day shoot.:lol:


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> I remember that storm, had a group in at the hunt club for a tower shoot, as I recall we got saddled with 10 inches in one day
> I threw 250 pheasants that day for a group. It was wild at times Denny Cortaid Pheasants were invisible during the snow squalls that came through. Most of the guys could not go out for the walk-up after wards, do to conditions. It was a great training week that follow shooting the left overs from the St Paddy's day shoot.:lol:


That sounds like way more fun than driving through it. 

I sure hope St. Paddy gives us a reprieve this year. I think we've more than paid our dues this winter with all the snow and cold.

There's a nice crust on the snow right now. The dogs are lovin' it. I even got to throw a few retrieves as they can run on top of the snow. We had a few unplanned loads of wood to haul before the trails get soft. The dogs always come along for the trip. They know, "Let's go get a load of wood" and were having a ball running where ever they wanted instead of having to stick to the trails. That'll all be over once we have a little warm weather and the crust is gone.

Dreaming of Spring.... :cool gleam


----------



## dauber

Now here is some St Patty dog work. 
http://twentytwowords.com/sheepdog-herds-men-to-the-pub-in-a-funny-guinness-commercial/

Yesterday was a good crust and both dogs and I could stay on top well. Of course it was -17 so we didn't take too long of walk! Today much warmer but breaking thru more often too.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Now here is some St Patty dog work.
> http://twentytwowords.com/sheepdog-herds-men-to-the-pub-in-a-funny-guinness-commercial/
> 
> Yesterday was a good crust and both dogs and I could stay on top well. Of course it was -17 so we didn't take too long of walk! Today much warmer but breaking thru more often too.


Love that commercial! I shared it with my agility friends with border collies (who also happen to enjoy a Guninness not and then).

Same here. I was firing balls for Bullet and Stormy but they started breaking through the crust. It's misting now. GO AWAY SNOW AND COLD!


----------



## michgundog

The SMSSTC spring hunt test information is now current. Here's a link for 2014, I'll work on having a sticky posted too. Thank you for looking and hope to see you at the test! 

http://www.smsstc.org/hunttest/


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## michgundog

michgundog said:


> The SMSSTC spring hunt test information is now current. Here's a link for 2014, I'll work on having a sticky posted too. Thank you for looking and hope to see you at the test!
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/hunttest/
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## JAM

I was wondering how others on this site feel about canine vaccinations. I've been reading horror stories on other sites about vaccination reactions that resulted in everything from lameness to death.

One of the articles I read suggests that puppies shouldn't be vaccinated until they're 12 weeks old because the mother provides natural protection from disease until about that time. Another fearful suggestion was that vaccinations should be given separately - not a combo injection. All this scares me with a new puppy on the way.

My hubby and I see a chiropractor that is against people vaccinations for fear of possible side effects. I took a photography class where one of the other students was an MD from (I believe) India. She said that she's seen people with the diseases those vaccinations prevent and feels the benefits far outweigh the risk.

None of my 3 dogs have ever experienced any reaction to their vaccinations so I'm inclined to go with them. I would never forgive myself if one of my dogs became ill with a disease that could have easily been prevented. And on the flip side it would be equally devastating to cause a problem by trying to prevent an illness.

Some of my agility friends are on the "don't vaccinate" campaign and are doing "Titer tests" to see if their dogs are already safe.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

~JAM


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I was wondering how others on this site feel about canine vaccinations. I've been reading horror stories on other sites about vaccination reactions that resulted in everything from lameness to death.
> 
> One of the articles I read suggests that puppies shouldn't be vaccinated until they're 12 weeks old because the mother provides natural protection from disease until about that time. Another fearful suggestion was that vaccinations should be given separately - not a combo injection. All this scares me with a new puppy on the way.
> 
> My hubby and I see a chiropractor that is against people vaccinations for fear of possible side effects. I took a photography class where one of the other students was an MD from (I believe) India. She said that she's seen people with the diseases those vaccinations prevent and feels the benefits far outweigh the risk.
> 
> None of my 3 dogs have ever experienced any reaction to their vaccinations so I'm inclined to go with them. I would never forgive myself if one of my dogs became ill with a disease that could have easily been prevented. And on the flip side it would be equally devastating to cause a problem by trying to prevent an illness.
> 
> Some of my agility friends are on the "don't vaccinate" campaign and are doing "Titer tests" to see if their dogs are already safe.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ~JAM


Don't know? Would have been a good question 2 weeks ago at UP-birdhunters


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Don't know? Would have been a good question 2 weeks ago at UP-birdhunters


Of course! Too bad I didn't think of it then.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Of course! Too bad I didn't think of it then.


We'll be seeing Dr Coyer in a couple weeks and ask then.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I was wondering how others on this site feel about canine vaccinations. I've been reading horror stories on other sites about vaccination reactions that resulted in everything from lameness to death.
> 
> One of the articles I read suggests that puppies shouldn't be vaccinated until they're 12 weeks old because the mother provides natural protection from disease until about that time. Another fearful suggestion was that vaccinations should be given separately - not a combo injection. All this scares me with a new puppy on the way.
> 
> My hubby and I see a chiropractor that is against people vaccinations for fear of possible side effects. I took a photography class where one of the other students was an MD from (I believe) India. She said that she's seen people with the diseases those vaccinations prevent and feels the benefits far outweigh the risk.
> 
> None of my 3 dogs have ever experienced any reaction to their vaccinations so I'm inclined to go with them. I would never forgive myself if one of my dogs became ill with a disease that could have easily been prevented. And on the flip side it would be equally devastating to cause a problem by trying to prevent an illness.
> 
> Some of my agility friends are on the "don't vaccinate" campaign and are doing "Titer tests" to see if their dogs are already safe.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ~JAM


Over the years Nancy have raised at least 100 puppies. Never had a vaccination problem. I really do not have and opinion as to vaccinate or not, though we always did! Not sure how I would answer that if we were in the "no vaccine camp"


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> I was wondering how others on this site feel about canine vaccinations. I've been reading horror stories on other sites about vaccination reactions that resulted in everything from lameness to death.
> 
> One of the articles I read suggests that puppies shouldn't be vaccinated until they're 12 weeks old because the mother provides natural protection from disease until about that time. Another fearful suggestion was that vaccinations should be given separately - not a combo injection. All this scares me with a new puppy on the way.
> 
> My hubby and I see a chiropractor that is against people vaccinations for fear of possible side effects. I took a photography class where one of the other students was an MD from (I believe) India. She said that she's seen people with the diseases those vaccinations prevent and feels the benefits far outweigh the risk.
> 
> None of my 3 dogs have ever experienced any reaction to their vaccinations so I'm inclined to go with them. I would never forgive myself if one of my dogs became ill with a disease that could have easily been prevented. And on the flip side it would be equally devastating to cause a problem by trying to prevent an illness.
> 
> Some of my agility friends are on the "don't vaccinate" campaign and are doing "Titer tests" to see if their dogs are already safe.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ~JAM


Jam,

You have asked a question many folks will have with a new puppy on the way. My advice is, "do not try to overthink this". Find a good veterinarian and then follow his advice. Vaccination protocols have been updated in recent years and the AVMA and AAHA both have current vaccination recommendations posted on their websites. They are very similar.

_Some puppies_ may or may not have protective titers at 12 weeks to certain viruses and just how do you know, which is which ?? Some puppies may have no protective titers at 8 weeks. Parvo, for example, is still very prevalent in nature and can kill puppies, or even some adult dogs, very quickly. Rabies is still present in nature all around us. 

You are active in trials, training, and agility. Your dogs need to be protected against the common disease threats. I will say that my older dogs are gradually weaned off of vaccinations until they are stopped completely when they reach old age. I have never experienced a "vaccine reaction" personally in any of my dogs. 

There are some risks inherent with any medical procedure, but the risks from not vaccinating your dogs, are far greater IME.


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Jam,
> 
> You have asked a question many folks will have with a new puppy on the way. My advice is, "do not try to overthink this". Find a good veterinarian and then follow his advice. Vaccination protocols have been updated in recent years and the AVMA and AAHA both have current vaccination recommendations posted on their websites. They are very similar.
> 
> _Some puppies_ may or may not have protective titers at 12 weeks to certain viruses and just how do you know, which is which ?? Some puppies may have no protective titers at 8 weeks. Parvo, for example, is still very prevalent in nature and can kill puppies, or even some adult dogs, very quickly. Rabies is still present in nature all around us.
> 
> You are active in trials, training, and agility. Your dogs need to be protected against the common disease threats. I will say that my older dogs are gradually weaned off of vaccinations until they are stopped completely when they reach old age. I have never experienced a "vaccine reaction" personally in any of my dogs.
> 
> There are some risks inherent with any medical procedure, but the risks from not vaccinating your dogs, are far greater IME.


NB, Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. I've always had my dogs vaccinated and have never had any type of reaction or problem.

The Internet is great for a lot of things but it certainly has a way of stirring up things to which I would never before have even given a second thought.

I trust the vets and clinic I've been using so I'll just go with their recommendations.

I should also mention that my "Titer test" friends do have their dogs vaccinated - especially for Rabies. They just don't feel that the boosters are necessary and fear over vaccinating.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

I gave a honk on the horn as I went through the U.P. Jam, Dauber did you guys hear me? I was surprised I think I have the same amount of snow in TC that you guys have. 


Jam, I am worried about vaccines too. I still have the dogs vaccinated but I won't do combo vaccines anymore. I also space vaccines out. My dogs go 4 times a year to get vaccines once every three months. Its also a good time for the vet to do a full checkup.




Brandy and I had a great time in WI this past weekend. Ottawa training grounds are almost clear of snow. There was some decent cover to be had. Birds flew well.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> I gave a honk on the horn as I went through the U.P. Jam, Dauber did you guys hear me? I was surprised I think I have the same amount of snow in TC that you guys have.
> 
> 
> Jam, I am worried about vaccines too. I still have the dogs vaccinated but I won't do combo vaccines anymore. I also space vaccines out. My dogs go 4 times a year to get vaccines once every three months. Its also a good time for the vet to do a full checkup.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brandy and I had a great time in WI this past weekend. Ottawa training grounds are almost clear of snow. There was some decent cover to be had. Birds flew well.


Oh, that was you! I wondered who was honking that horn. 

Thanks for the thoughts on single vaccinations. I'll discuss it with my vet.

Yeah... SNOW! This is the worst winter we've had in a very long time. It's snowing right now. I hope this is the St. Paddy's Day Storm and it will be the end of it.

Good girl, Brandy! Great job as usual.


----------



## JAM

Went to see Jeepers yesterday. He's really growing!

Let me out!









I'll be good.


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Went to see Jeepers yesterday. He's really growing!
> 
> Let me out!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be good.


Beautiful boy JAM! Nice camera work with a wide aperture too!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Went to see Jeepers yesterday. He's really growing!
> 
> Let me out!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be good.


Golly he looks spoiled already!! We're going to have another great summer working puppies! 

It was good to see Mr JAM today smiling! I made no mention of Jeepers though!!


----------



## uppower

JAM that's a good looking pup! Planning on my first ruffed grouse meeting tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing a few guys there!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Golly he looks spoiled already!! We're going to have another great summer working puppies!
> 
> It was good to see Mr JAM today smiling! I made no mention of Jeepers though!!


Thanks, Yooperguy. You must be a photog, too. Ohoh! That means I'll be handing you the camera next time you're around. 

Thank you, UPPOWER. Hope you enjoy the RGS meeting.

Looking forward to summer. It's been a while since there's been a puppy at our house.

Sorry I missed you at the pigeon exchange. I happened to glance out the window and there you were. I didn't see you pull up so hope you weren't waiting too long. Just then we were called in for our appointment. And yeah... Mr. JAM's back to smiling. I guess that means he's over it.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Went to see Jeepers yesterday. He's really growing!
> 
> Let me out!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be good.


Lucky pup, he won the lotto, going to a serious training home.
Jill your going to have a ball with your new project pup!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Lucky pup, he won the lotto, going to a serious training home.
> Jill your going to have a ball with your new project pup!


Thank you, GDG. I'm getting anxious!


----------



## dauber

Today's training. Dante returning with retrieve thru honoring dogs. 








My training "boots" since early January.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Today's training. Dante returning with retrieve thru honoring dogs.
> View attachment 60463
> 
> 
> My training "boots" since early January.
> 
> View attachment 60464


Nice honor, boys! Snow shoes required here today, too. UGH!


----------



## JAM

Here's the view in the South-Central U.P. today. :rant:


----------



## uppower

Guys we've been working hard on marking this winter. I want to add in shotgun poppers similar to what I've seen dauber use. Any idea where the best place to purchase such things would be?


----------



## dauber

uppower said:


> Guys we've been working hard on marking this winter. I want to add in shotgun poppers similar to what I've seen dauber use. Any idea where the best place to purchase such things would be?


I just primed some hulls I wasn't going to reload then partial crimped them. I think some of the dog catalogs sell poppers such as Lion Country Supply but they are pricey.


----------



## uppower

Thanks Steve! I'll just buy some till I'm able to create my own. Going to have to bring the pup over to visit your crew some time.


----------



## JAM

Well... This is what it looks like here on this nice Spring day. 









This is the different between a Chevy truck and a Toyota RAV4. The Chevy has been to town and back. The RAV4 made it half way between my garage and the road and is stuck. The "4 wheel drive" is a joke. In "4 wheel drive LOCK" the engine won't even accelerate when I hit the gas - it stays in idle. UGH! I'm going to be car shopping shortly. I've had Jeeps in the past, a Chevy Tahoe for 10 yrs., an '85 Ford Bronco - I've NEVER been stuck in my driveway.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> Well... This is what it looks like here on this nice Spring day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the different between a Chevy truck and a Toyota RAV4. The Chevy has been to town and back. The RAV4 made it half way between my garage and the road and is stuck. The "4 wheel drive" is a joke. In "4 wheel drive LOCK" the engine won't even accelerate when I hit the gas - it stays in idle. UGH! I'm going to be car shopping shortly. I've had Jeeps in the past, a Chevy Tahoe for 10 yrs., an '85 Ford Bronco - I've NEVER been stuck in my driveway.


Maybe it will melt tomorrow! Over on this end of the yoop we move the skiff of snow like that so it don't pile up too much. Mr JAM even broke you a trail!!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Maybe it will melt tomorrow! Over on this end of the yoop we move the skiff of snow like that so it don't pile up too much. Mr JAM even broke you a trail!!


It's melting! Yahoo! And yeah... You Eastern Yoopers know a lot more about what to do with "skiffs of snow" than us poor Banana Belt Yoopers. And... (there's more)... Mr. JAM left from the other side of the garage so I didn't have any trail.

Now for the rest of the story... I was stuck. I put the RAV4 in 4 wheel drive LOCK. You'd think that would do it but NOPE! Every time I'd step on the gas the engine would go to an idle. Now I'm raving mad. At noon I called the Toyota Garage to see if that's how this thing is supposed to work. They put a mechanic on the phone and he said it was a safety feature. Apparently that doesn't cover the safety of preventing an old women stuck in her driveway in the RAV4 from having a stroke. 

I finally got out and did the things I had to do and cooled off a little swearing to NEVER buy another Toyota if that's how their 4WD works. But just to be sure I got out the book and began to read. AHEM... After paging through a few different sections on "What to do if you're stuck", there's a page about pushing one more button. This button prevents the motor from shutting down when you're trying to rock the car to get it unstuck.

So... Looks like I'll be driving the RAV4 for a while longer.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> It's melting! Yahoo! And yeah... You Eastern Yoopers know a lot more about what to do with "skiffs of snow" than us poor Banana Belt Yoopers. And... (there's more)... Mr. JAM left from the other side of the garage so I didn't have any trail.
> 
> Now for the rest of the story... I was stuck. I put the RAV4 in 4 wheel drive LOCK. You'd think that would do it but NOPE! Every time I'd step on the gas the engine would go to an idle. Now I'm raving mad. At noon I called the Toyota Garage to see if that's how this thing is supposed to work. They put a mechanic on the phone and he said it was a safety feature. Apparently that doesn't cover the safety of preventing an old women stuck in her driveway in the RAV4 from having a stroke.
> 
> I finally got out and did the things I had to do and cooled off a little swearing to NEVER buy another Toyota if that's how their 4WD works. But just to be sure I got out the book and began to read. AHEM... After paging through a few different sections on "What to do if you're stuck", there's a page about pushing one more button. This button prevents the motor from shutting down when you're trying to rock the car to get it unstuck.
> 
> So... Looks like I'll be driving the RAV4 for a while longer.


Raving mad in a Rav! LOL!! Ya they put all that safety crap on to force you to read directions. They must figure pickup drivers won't read so no safety crap. Yuppies cars need lots of directions.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Well... This is what it looks like here on this nice Spring day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the different between a Chevy truck and a Toyota RAV4. The Chevy has been to town and back. The RAV4 made it half way between my garage and the road and is stuck. The "4 wheel drive" is a joke. In "4 wheel drive LOCK" the engine won't even accelerate when I hit the gas - it stays in idle. UGH! I'm going to be car shopping shortly. I've had Jeeps in the past, a Chevy Tahoe for 10 yrs., an '85 Ford Bronco - I've NEVER been stuck in my driveway.


:yikes::SHOCKED: Yous Yooper's sure know how to have fun in da moonlight!


----------



## gundogguy

Just got word that Fergie's Temp dropped pups on their way out! she looks like she swallowed a melon whole


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Raving mad in a Rav! LOL!! Ya they put all that safety crap on to force you to read directions. They must figure pickup drivers won't read so no safety crap. Yuppies cars need lots of directions.


You're a quick one, Mr. D! LOL I hadn't thought about being RAVving Mad (with 5 being the maddest and 1 being the least annoyed it was a 4). Yeah... Read the book. Who'd a thought, hey?  I was so mad this AM that I almost forgot it's "Sir Bemis the Royal Flusher" - "Bemis' " 13th birthday today. 

6-1-01 the day Bemis came home









3-28-14 Happy 13th Birthday, Bemis!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Just got word that Fergie's Temp dropped pups on their way out! she looks like she swallowed a melon whole


WooHoo! Will be watching for some "Cliff Jr." pics!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Just got word that Fergie's Temp dropped pups on their way out! she looks like she swallowed a melon whole


"Like"


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> You're a quick one, Mr. D! LOL I hadn't thought about being RAVving Mad (with 5 being the maddest and 1 being the least annoyed it was a 4). Yeah... Read the book. Who'd a thought, hey?  I was so mad this AM that I almost forgot it's "Sir Bemis the Royal Flusher" - "Bemis' " 13th birthday today.
> 
> 6-1-01 the day Bemis came home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3-28-14 Happy 13th Birthday, Bemis!


You gotta REV THAT RAV UP eh?? &#128513;

Happy Birthday Bemis!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> You gotta REV THAT RAV UP eh?? &#55357;&#56833;
> 
> Happy Birthday Bemis!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Hey Yooperguy!

Yeah... Yuppies must know enough to get out the owner's manual when they get stuck. I guess that makes me a tried and true Yooper *******. It never crossed my mind that to "REV that RAV" I had to read. Gives new meaning to the "3 R's". 

Bemis says, "Thank You"!


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Hey Yooperguy!
> 
> Yeah... Yuppies must know enough to get out the owner's manual when they get stuck. I guess that makes me a tried and true Yooper *******. It never crossed my mind that to "REV that RAV" I had to read. Gives new meaning to the "3 R's".
> 
> Bemis says, "Thank You"!


Well... now that you know about that button (sorry to hear about the manual), I have the perfect Yooper solution. DUCT TAPE! &#128513;

Just duct tape that button down with a strip of "quick silver" and never need no stinkin' manual again! LOL!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> Well... now that you know about that button (sorry to hear about the manual), I have the perfect Yooper solution. DUCT TAPE! &#128513;
> 
> Just duct tape that button down with a strip of "quick silver" and never need no stinkin' manual again! LOL!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Now that's straight from the "How to be a Yooper" manual. Good thinking', YG!


----------



## gundogguy

Warm-up exercises and drills Friday Night before bird work begins. Training Saturday was challenging due to snow squalls that dumped a 1/2" to and inch, training was ok and productive, however video's did not turn out very good due to the large snow flakes that clouded the lens of the POV. Video was about working on diversion, steadiness, marking delivery and memory.

At least we were able to train without slogging thru knee deep snow.
Birds flew well 1st time I had gunned since New years day what a gunning drought that has been.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Warm-up exercises and drills Friday Night before bird work begins. Training Saturday was challenging due to snow squalls that dumped a 1/2" to and inch, training was ok and productive, however video's did not turn out very good due to the large snow flakes that clouded the lens of the POV. Video was about working on diversion, steadiness, marking delivery and memory.
> 
> At least we were able to train without slogging thru knee deep snow.
> Birds flew well 1st time I had gunned since New years day what a gunning drought that has been.
> 
> Warm-up drills before bird work - YouTube


Very nice warmup. Some right and left backs thrown in along with the diversions, steady, and memory work. 

We did some steady and honor work Saturday and a little quartering and fly away work today. I am getting the hang of gunning on the snowshoes. You really have to concentrate on footwork with 4 foot long shoes! 4 for 4 yesterday. 

First robin today, but he still has 24" of snow to dig thru to find worms!!


----------



## Gavan

3 females and 1 male available.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Very nice warmup. Some right and left backs thrown in along with the diversions, steady, and memory work.
> 
> We did some steady and honor work Saturday and a little quartering and fly away work today. I am getting the hang of gunning on the snowshoes. You really have to concentrate on footwork with 4 foot long shoes! 4 for 4 yesterday.
> 
> First robin today, but he still has 24" of snow to dig thru to find worms!!


Nice video. I love to do exercises like that with my boys.

Yeah... The poor robins look very out of place sitting on top of 4 ft. snowbanks.


----------



## JAM

Gavan said:


> 3 females and 1 male available.


Nice looking pups. Congrats!


----------



## JAM

Jeepers Visit 3-31-14 - 6 weeks old yesterday.
Took his first venture outside today with the rest of the pups. We had a little "one-on-one time" with the frozen pheasant. Just put it on the ground and watched him go for it. Lots of fun!
P.S. Don't let the grass fool you. It's where the truck's parked so it's been plowed. The snow on the level is to the top of the bulk propane tank.









I took a bunch of pictures today but I accidentally changed some camera settings and forgot to check them so my pictures didn't turn out. This one was "salvaged".


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Jeepers Visit 3-31-14 - 6 weeks old yesterday.
> Took his first venture outside today with the rest of the pups. We had a little "one-on-one time" with the frozen pheasant. Just put it on the ground and watched him go for it. Lots of fun!
> P.S. Don't let the grass fool you. It's where the truck's parked so it's been plowed. The snow on the level is to the top of the bulk propane tank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I took a bunch of pictures today but I accidentally changed some camera settings and forgot to check them so my pictures didn't turn out. This one was "salvaged".


Jeepers is off to a fine start JAM!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

Is Jeepers the terrorist in the video Bob sent?


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Is Jeepers the terrorist in the video Bob sent?


Could be! It's hard to keep track of them. At times, they're ALL terrorists.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Warm-up exercises and drills Friday Night before bird work begins. Training Saturday was challenging due to snow squalls that dumped a 1/2" to and inch, training was ok and productive, however video's did not turn out very good due to the large snow flakes that clouded the lens of the POV. Video was about working on diversion, steadiness, marking delivery and memory.
> 
> At least we were able to train without slogging thru knee deep snow.
> Birds flew well 1st time I had gunned since New years day what a gunning drought that has been.



Want to come do videos for me? 


Brandy and I had a great weekend doing HRC upland test again. She went 4 for 4 again this weekend.


----------



## Gavan

I saw that one too. Somebody is getting a handful with that pup. He dominated one pup for a while and then moved on to another. All in 30 seconds...


----------



## Gavan

have some serious firepower in their male lines. Paternal line for Gavan= NFC-FC-AFC Sunrise Zinger beget FC-AFC Yankee beget FC Sunrise Hey Dude beget FC AFC Sunrise Seamus of Stuyvesant beget AFC Sunrise Sir Gawain of Peachdale (Gavan). Paternal line for Katydid= FC-AFC Ru-Char's Roger, Jr beget AFC Ru-Char's Citation's Reward beget FC Tridon's Kansas Pride 'n Joy beget FC-AFC Copper Creek Monty beget FC-AFC Copper's Bodacious Bo beget Katydid Hunt. Lots of Denalisunflo's Ring on the Maternal side for both dogs. Gavan's Maternal granfather was Ring. I'm pumped to get working with my new pup.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> have some serious firepower in their male lines. Paternal line for Gavan= NFC-FC-AFC Sunrise Zinger beget FC-AFC Yankee beget FC Sunrise Hey Dude beget FC AFC Sunrise Seamus of Stuyvesant beget AFC Sunrise Sir Gawain of Peachdale (Gavan). Paternal line for Katydid= FC-AFC Ru-Char's Roger, Jr beget AFC Ru-Char's Citation's Reward beget FC Tridon's Kansas Pride 'n Joy beget FC-AFC Copper Creek Monty beget FC-AFC Copper's Bodacious Bo beget Katydid Hunt. Lots of Denalisunflo's Ring on the Maternal side for both dogs. Gavan's Maternal granfather was Ring. I'm pumped to get working with my new pup.


There is a dandy pedigree! Good luck with your next project Gavan!!


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Want to come do videos for me?
> 
> 
> Brandy and I had a great weekend doing HRC upland test again. She went 4 for 4 again this weekend.


Nice job Brandy and IWB.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Want to come do videos for me?
> 
> 
> Brandy and I had a great weekend doing HRC upland test again. She went 4 for 4 again this weekend.


YAY Brandy! Way to show those "big dogs" how it's done!


----------



## JAM

Gavan said:


> have some serious firepower in their male lines. Paternal line for Gavan= NFC-FC-AFC Sunrise Zinger beget FC-AFC Yankee beget FC Sunrise Hey Dude beget FC AFC Sunrise Seamus of Stuyvesant beget AFC Sunrise Sir Gawain of Peachdale (Gavan). Paternal line for Katydid= FC-AFC Ru-Char's Roger, Jr beget AFC Ru-Char's Citation's Reward beget FC Tridon's Kansas Pride 'n Joy beget FC-AFC Copper Creek Monty beget FC-AFC Copper's Bodacious Bo beget Katydid Hunt. Lots of Denalisunflo's Ring on the Maternal side for both dogs. Gavan's Maternal granfather was Ring. I'm pumped to get working with my new pup.


WOW! Nice lineup! Looks like there's going to be a lot of "puppy talk" going on here soon.


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Want to come do videos for me?
> 
> 
> Brandy and I had a great weekend doing HRC upland test again. She went 4 for 4 again this weekend.


Doug and Brandy living large!



Gavan said:


> have some serious firepower in their male lines. Paternal line for Gavan= NFC-FC-AFC Sunrise Zinger beget FC-AFC Yankee beget FC Sunrise Hey Dude beget FC AFC Sunrise Seamus of Stuyvesant beget AFC Sunrise Sir Gawain of Peachdale (Gavan). Paternal line for Katydid= FC-AFC Ru-Char's Roger, Jr beget AFC Ru-Char's Citation's Reward beget FC Tridon's Kansas Pride 'n Joy beget FC-AFC Copper Creek Monty beget FC-AFC Copper's Bodacious Bo beget Katydid Hunt. Lots of Denalisunflo's Ring on the Maternal side for both dogs. Gavan's Maternal granfather was Ring. I'm pumped to get working with my new pup.


Always love a project pup early in the year!



JAM said:


> WOW! Nice lineup! Looks like there's going to be a lot of "puppy talk" going on here soon.


Hope springs eternal when the culture has new project pups to train up! Going to be a fun and gun summer that's for sure!!


----------



## METRO1

Having last european shoot and walk up hunt after .for kim mueser groups this year at hunt club.its 11 pheasents per guy and lunch for 145.00.pretty cheap for lunch and 11birds per guy.should be 200 to 300 birds.if interested pm with number to contact u. Need to know asap.can take up to 5 more guys....


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Just got word that Fergie's Temp dropped pups on their way out! she looks like she swallowed a melon whole


GDG, You, Nancy and the Wallaces have my deepest sympathy on the loss of Fergie's litter. I can't even start to imagine the heartbreak all of you are going through. I'm glad that Fergie is going to be OK.

Take care,

~Jill (JAM)


----------



## JAM

Fox Valley English Cocker Spaniel Club Field Trial

Today's placements:

First Stella - Hansen
Second Macey - Karlovec
Third Woodrow - Schuster
Fourth Jordan - Schroeder


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> GDG, You, Nancy and the Wallaces have my deepest sympathy on the loss of Fergie's litter. I can't even start to imagine the heartbreak all of you are going through. I'm glad that Fergie is going to be OK.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> ~Jill (JAM)


Wow... Very sorry to hear this. Condolences.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Fox Valley English Cocker Spaniel Club Field Trial
> 
> Today's placements:
> 
> First Stella - Hansen
> Second Macey - Karlovec
> Third Woodrow - Schuster
> Fourth Jordan - Schroeder


Have you heard from Team Dauber?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> Have you heard from Team Dauber?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


A quick text from Steve this AM.

Zac broke in the first series and Smoke was still in for the 2nd but was doubtful he'd make the 3rd. And... It was sunny and 40 F. 

In Gladstone it started out with freezing rain this morning turning quickly to snow. It's still snowing. UGH! Was glad to hear the trial had better weather. At least Team Dauber gets to play on grass. 

Got the placements from FB - Rumi S.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> GDG, You, Nancy and the Wallaces have my deepest sympathy on the loss of Fergie's litter. I can't even start to imagine the heartbreak all of you are going through. I'm glad that Fergie is going to be OK.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> ~Jill (JAM)





yooperguy2003 said:


> Wow... Very sorry to hear this. Condolences.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Thanks guys. 
Nancy and I do feel very bad for the Wallace's. However we are fine, breeding heartbreaks are commonplace the only way to avoid it is not to breed. But avoidance gets you no where. Over the years we have learned how to press on regardless. Training today! lousy conditions that's for sure.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> A quick text from Steve this AM.
> 
> Zac broke in the first series and Smoke was still in for the 2nd but was doubtful he'd make the 3rd. And... It was sunny and 40 F.
> 
> In Gladstone it started out with freezing rain this morning turning quickly to snow. It's still snowing. UGH! Was glad to hear the trial had better weather. At least Team Dauber gets to play on grass.
> 
> Got the placements from FB - Rumi S.


LOL! I was being sarcastic about 40 and sunny. We had freezing rain early, rain to drizzle to snow by the end. Pretty tough conditions. 

Smoke's first mark had quite a few factors, but another bird scent sucked him off line enough he had to be handled. He did finish the second but didn't get called back. Zac was a little overwhelmed by the number of people and dogs. He went a little too far on his second flush on a low flyer. He did run a pretty good downwind. 

Just Smoke today with Karen running. Weather is supposed to be much improved.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> *LOL! I was being sarcastic about 40 and sunny. We had freezing rain early, rain to drizzle to snow by the end. Pretty tough conditions. *
> 
> Smoke's first mark had quite a few factors, but another bird scent sucked him off line enough he had to be handled. He did finish the second but didn't get called back. Zac was a little overwhelmed by the number of people and dogs. He went a little too far on his second flush on a low flyer. He did run a pretty good downwind.
> 
> Just Smoke today with Karen running. Weather is supposed to be much improved.


LOL is right! I was about to respond to JAM and let her know that conditions were identical here in the EUP yesterday as what she described for the bannana belt. UGH!! 

Thanks for the report Steve. I was wondering how you guys were doing out there. Have fun and learn from it all.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> LOL! I was being sarcastic about 40 and sunny. We had freezing rain early, rain to drizzle to snow by the end. Pretty tough conditions.
> 
> Smoke's first mark had quite a few factors, but another bird scent sucked him off line enough he had to be handled. He did finish the second but didn't get called back. Zac was a little overwhelmed by the number of people and dogs. He went a little too far on his second flush on a low flyer. He did run a pretty good downwind.
> 
> Just Smoke today with Karen running. Weather is supposed to be much improved.


Hmmmm. Steve, You should have been a politician. I bought it hook, line and sinker. 
Yeah... Tough conditions even for us Yoopers. 

Those low-flying sucker birds will even take out the well seasoned dogs. Too bad for poor little Zac. Bullet had a sucker bird that drew him off his retrieve at the same trial grounds a few years ago so I know exactly what Smoke was facing.

Hope you have better luck and, ahem, weather today and tomorrow.

Go get 'em, Team Dauber!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Thanks guys.
> Nancy and I do feel very bad for the Wallace's. However we are fine, breeding heartbreaks are commonplace the only way to avoid it is not to breed. But avoidance gets you no where. Over the years we have learned how to press on regardless. Training today! lousy conditions that's for sure.


Glad everyone's doing OK. Have fun training!

Hie on!


----------



## uppower

Go get get em team dauber! I have a feeling Zac will get em next time. That's an amazing little dog and he's got a couple amazing trainers!


----------



## JAM

A view from my house in Gladstone.

4/3/14 Poor Robins!









4/5/14 Even though I'm sick of the snow it was beautiful and sparkling this AM.









You guys that are training and trialling are making me VERY jealous!


----------



## gundogguy

Great scenting good spring cover!
Ch Harry and Roxanne having a little work out!
Find flush retrieve with manners


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Great scenting good spring cover!
> Ch Harry and Roxanne having a little work out!
> Find flush retrieve with manners
> 
> Harry and Rox - YouTube


Nice! And G-R-A-S-S!


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Nice! And G-R-A-S-S!


I was thinking it looked like an oasis! &#128513;

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Great scenting good spring cover!
> Ch Harry and Roxanne having a little work out!
> Find flush retrieve with manners
> 
> Harry and Rox - YouTube


Nice to see Roxanne and Harry out there working!!


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Hal what are you using to record video and what program are you using to upload?


As I understand it my equipment is obsolete and out of production.
I have a Contour Roam 1600. The software I use is way more than I need but it works just fine Corel Studio Video pro X7.
as I recall the POV was about 125.00 the software was roughly 100.00 Over a period of time I try using a number of "free" editing software ,however they cause conflicts of some sort with my PC. The Corel X7 so far has been flawless


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> As I understand it my equipment is* obsolete* and *out of production.*
> I have a Contour Roam 1600. The software I use is way more than I need but it works just fine Corel Studio Video pro X7.
> as I recall the POV was about 125.00 the software was roughly 100.00 Over a period of time I try using a number of "free" editing software ,however they cause conflicts of some sort with my PC. The Corel X7 so far has been flawless


 
Good day today training dogs Cockers Springer's Wiemy's and a Setter pup.
Had my hands full with instructing handlers....left the lens cap on all 8 dogs...got a lot of audible but no video, will be at GLESSFTA Monday will not be busy instructing. will try to get some vids then,.
Remember those that have gone on and fought for our freedoms the battle is never over!


----------



## 704

Enjoy training with the glessfta on Monday. Say hi to the gang. Pass along the report on Rudy that he is doing fine. Tell the Irishman to train hard because he has a little black cocker nipping at the heels of his fine springers. He told me to buy a "real dog" so I did. 

Enjoy you videos. Keep posting.


----------



## gundogguy

704 said:


> Enjoy training with the glessfta on Monday. Say hi to the gang. Pass along the report on Rudy that he is doing fine. Tell the Irishman to train hard because he has a little black cocker nipping at the heels of his fine springers. He told me to buy a "real dog" so I did.
> 
> Enjoy you videos. Keep posting.


 
Hah! The "mick" can be cantakourus" to deal with but if you just give it back to him, really he is a real cupcake. They are doing well, he and his bride! the last time we all got together was New Years Day so you can see we are not cooking as a group. Good thing we not crowded with new folks they would not stand a chance getting a pup going.





 

Al and Chance New Years day. as you can tell the real snow did not fall until after the first of year.


----------



## 704

Nice video
I was thinking of GEorge that told me to get a real dog.
Will GW and the gunner brothers (BF / DF) be training too.? Bob has a nice puppy. Maybe it will be running the trial circuit this fall Along with Nancy your fine spaniel. 
Be safe, shoot straight, and have fun.


----------



## gundogguy

704 said:


> Nice video
> I was thinking of GEorge that told me to get a real dog.
> Will GW and the gunner brothers (BF / DF) be training too.? Bob has a nice puppy. Maybe it will be running the trial circuit this fall Along with Nancy your fine spaniel.
> Be safe, shoot straight, and have fun.


I can only assume the usual suspects will be present at training.
I mean who could stand us we are really just a group of curmudgeons out for a little sport.
BF's pup is a dandy , Ivy is up for High point pup as the standings are right now. I believe she can still run Puppy's until late October.
Zeta's progress is a little different. She will spend some time this fall
on the Eastern Interclub Circuit, in the AA Open stakes.

I'll give every a shout out today from You, including the guy that told you to get a real dog.
Oh any chance you would be coming down for the Cocker trail in Sept we could meet up?!


----------



## gundogguy

Well the Irish guy did a place training with his "real" dog when I gave him your regards 704.. A good time was had by all. and we actually did some training so dogs were energized as well. Photogs today instead of vids


Place training with Speed

Chance dog getting a little extra admiration from his Master

Gee and Nan discussing training strategy's


----------



## dauber

Nice pictures and training report Hal. 

Welcome aboard 704! Give pup Rudy a pat on the head from us...if he slows down long enough for a pat!!

The warm sunny weekend made things start growing. A green tinge beginning on the trees and I may have to mow grass this week. Still can see a few snow piles but they shouldn't make the week. Over the next couple weeks we should start having some respectable spaniel cover! 

Looking forward to our next get together 704.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Thanks for the info about your camera Hal. I seem to have a problem getting videos onto youtube. I start off with 1080p but when I upload to youtube the resolution is lowered and the video is blocky. Can't seem to get past that.

I took Brandy and the boys out to Mike Fredericks for some retriever training over the weekend. Let Brandy out to air her and she came up with this. I scrambled for my camera and missed the initial encounter but got some good photos. She seems to find these guys all the time. 










Sit whistle:










No Bird heel:


----------



## JAM

OMG! How cute!


----------



## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Thanks for the info about your camera Hal. I seem to have a problem getting videos onto youtube. I start off with 1080p but when I upload to youtube the resolution is lowered and the video is blocky. Can't seem to get past that.
> 
> I
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sit whistle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Bird heel:


 
I have not had those kind of conflicts with YouTube, in fact very satisfied with it.
The Coral software really does make uploading to various medias simple You, FB, and so on!

Yes I have to agree with Jam "Cute" as I always say I hate Cute!


----------



## gundogguy

Well I'm fairly certain the Ice
is off of most lakes in Michigan and training cover is now starting to jump.
woohoo!
Training for the next 3 months for Zeta will be most concentrated on Brace work. A crucial aspect of brace work is honoring the dog on the other course.
Because this dogs basics a very solid she will transcend this behavior quite well.
As with all "new ' behaviors I start in the yard or garden, and it will be on bumpers shooting primer only loads. this will be her only session in the garden we will move directly to bird field in subsequent training days with flyers. Hopefully by Sunday We will be able to run brace with a Field champion as her brace mate.
This vid is a lot longer than I normally like put out but it is what it is.
Remember this behavior that before we have not ask her to perform.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Well I'm fairly certain the Ice
> is off of most lakes in Michigan and training cover is now starting to jump.
> woohoo!
> Training for the next 3 months for Zeta will be most concentrated on Brace work. A crucial aspect of brace work is honoring the dog on the other course.
> Because this dogs basics a very solid she will transcend this behavior quite well.
> As with all "new ' behaviors I start in the yard or garden, and it will be on bumpers shooting primer only loads. this will be her only session in the garden we will move directly to bird field in subsequent training days with flyers. Hopefully by Sunday We will be able to run brace with a Field champion as her brace mate.
> This vid is a lot longer than I normally like put out but it is what it is.
> Remember this behavior that before we have not ask her to perform.
> 
> Honor shot drill the beginning - YouTube



Great advice and nice example of the yard work. This is high on Zac's list this summer too.


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> Well I'm fairly certain the Ice
> is off of most lakes in Michigan and training cover is now starting to jump.
> woohoo!
> Training for the next 3 months for Zeta will be most concentrated on Brace work. A crucial aspect of brace work is honoring the dog on the other course.
> Because this dogs basics a very solid she will transcend this behavior quite well.
> As with all "new ' behaviors I start in the yard or garden, and it will be on bumpers shooting primer only loads. this will be her only session in the garden we will move directly to bird field in subsequent training days with flyers. Hopefully by Sunday We will be able to run brace with a Field champion as her brace mate.
> This vid is a lot longer than I normally like put out but it is what it is.
> Remember this behavior that before we have not ask her to perform.
> 
> Honor shot drill the beginning - YouTube


 
Live action brace work for the War Princess Zeta.
As was mentioned in an earlier post there not many very good vids of classic spaniel work, primarily because good sound work takes place in cover that is not conducive to good photography. I think here in early June we are reaching that point. Took vids on Saturday all that was evident was bouncing heads above the cover and a few birds flying.

Sunday different cover composition and some of the vids turned out.
Zeta started serious honor drills Wed 6/28 on 6/01 she had her first live go at the behavior, I think that if we repeat that 25-30 times we might have a dog here!




 
Hot and muggy here in the southern tier need some rain!


----------



## dauber

Nice job Zeta, good snappy honor. These last few days are a great example of starting in the yard getting the response you want, then moving into the training field and getting closer to the level you are aiming for. 

In the training field things aren't quite as orchestrated which is why you want the original lessons in the yard. If I have time today I'll upload a short vid of a rolled in bird that didn't go as planed but turned into an early honor lesson. 

Your cover is certainly more than here , but we are catching up.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Nice job Zeta, good snappy honor. These last few days are a great example of starting in the yard getting the response you want, then moving into the training field and getting closer to the level you are aiming for.
> 
> In the training field things aren't quite as orchestrated which is why you want the original lessons in the yard. If I have time today I'll upload a short vid of a rolled in bird that didn't go as planed but turned into an early honor lesson.
> 
> *Your cover is certainly more than here , but we are catching up*.


This rain should help things along. Can't wait for the next running of the spaniels at the Team dauber training grounds!


----------



## dauber

The plan this day was for Zac to flush 2 pigeons, on the first he was going to watch the fall, then I was going to add a thrown dead to it to help keep him from thinking every fall is his, then the second bird was going to be picked up by the gun. 

I like to think we can make almost anything that happens into a positive in the training field, the way this plan ended was Zac trapped the first bird, I decided to just pocket it for later, then we found the first bird had volunteered, so I then decided to roll one in for a flush to work on steady and have it picked up by the gun. As you see in the vid that didn't work either so it turned into a lesson on honoring to shot. 





 
Looking forward to Emmie, Rudy, and maybe Belle this weekend.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> The plan this day was for Zac to flush 2 pigeons, on the first he was going to watch the fall, then I was going to add a thrown dead to it to help keep him from thinking every fall is his, then the second bird was going to be picked up by the gun.
> 
> I like to think we can make almost anything that happens into a positive in the training field, the way this plan ended was Zac trapped the first bird, I decided to just pocket it for later, then we found the first bird had volunteered, so I then decided to roll one in for a flush to work on steady and have it picked up by the gun. As you see in the vid that didn't work either so it turned into a lesson on honoring to shot.
> 
> Zac 5 14 honor lesson - YouTube
> 
> Looking forward to Emmie, Rudy, and maybe Belle this weekend.


Sometimes the best laid plans...  So glad you were able to make lemonade out of lemons.

Have fun this weekend! Wish we could join you.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> In the training field things aren't quite as orchestrated which is why you want the original lessons in the yard. If I have time today I'll upload a short vid of a rolled in bird that didn't go as planed but turned into an early honor lesson.


Great advice regarding yard training Steve. Glad your videos no longer contain snow...



Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Great advice and nice example of the yard work. This is high on Zac's list this summer too.





dauber said:


> Nice job Zeta, good snappy honor. These last few days are a great example of starting in the yard getting the response you want, then moving into the training field and getting closer to the level you are aiming for.
> 
> In the training field things aren't quite as orchestrated which is why you want the original lessons in the yard. If I have time today I'll upload a short vid of a rolled in bird that didn't go as planed but turned into an early honor lesson.
> 
> Your cover is certainly more than here , but we are catching up.


By returning to the yard for additional teaching you eliminate the factors of excitement the field presents. On new skills the dog should give you 125 percent of what might take place in the field during live action drill with birds and guns.
In your latest vid you were able to be successful because you had taken the time to lay the foundation for very precise work.
Anytime you want to teach a new behavior go back to yard for 1 maybe 2 sessions and you will have it easy peasy. Training a spaniel is just that simple.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> The plan this day was for Zac to flush 2 pigeons, on the first he was going to watch the fall, then I was going to add a thrown dead to it to help keep him from thinking every fall is his, then the second bird was going to be picked up by the gun.
> 
> I like to think we can make almost anything that happens into a positive in the training field, the way this plan ended was Zac trapped the first bird, I decided to just pocket it for later, then we found the first bird had volunteered, so I then decided to roll one in for a flush to work on steady and have it picked up by the gun. As you see in the vid that didn't work either so it turned into a lesson on honoring to shot.
> 
> Zac 5 14 honor lesson - YouTube
> 
> Looking forward to Emmie, Rudy, and maybe Belle this weekend.


Good stuff! Belle is looking forward to the weekend!!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> By returning to the yard for additional teaching you eliminate the factors of excitement the field presents. On new skills the dog should give you 125 percent of what might take place in the field during live action drill with birds and guns.
> In your latest vid you were able to be successful because you had taken the time to lay the foundation for very precise work.
> Anytime you want to teach a new behavior go back to yard for 1 maybe 2 sessions and you will have it easy peasy. Training a spaniel is just that simple.



Full disclosure, we had done a driveway lesson or two back in April. That lesson will be a good step prior to brace honors.


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Good stuff! Belle is looking forward to the weekend!!



Looking forward to seeing Belle and yous guys.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Looking forward to seeing Belle and yous guys.


We are looking forward to seeing you guys too. I broke out the clippers, brushed up on my barber skills, and gave Belle a "bad" haircut just for the occasion!:lol:


----------



## dauber

Here is a nice article about last years NCC (National Cocker Championship).

https://purinaproclub.com/resource-library/todays-breeder/issue-85/the-trek-to-Bismarck


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Here is a nice article about last years NCC (National Cocker Championship).
> 
> https://purinaproclub.com/resource-library/todays-breeder/issue-85/the-trek-to-Bismarck


Quite a nice article indeed, Steve. Good background stuff on some of the NCC participants and dogs. Thanks for posting.

Enjoyed reading that Tom Ness's foundation bi##h "Mave" made the HOF. She's my Scout's grand dam on the bottom line.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is a nice article about last years NCC (National Cocker Championship).
> 
> https://purinaproclub.com/resource-library/todays-breeder/issue-85/the-trek-to-Bismarck


Thanks Steve, That was a very written account of the NCC



NATTY BUMPO said:


> Quite a nice article indeed, Steve. Good background stuff on some of the NCC participants and dogs. Thanks for posting.
> 
> Enjoyed reading that Tom Ness's foundation bi##h "Mave" made the HOF. She's my Scout's grand dam on the bottom line.
> 
> 
> NB


+1 always nice to see. As they say the cream rises to the top, when you 1st saw Scout you just new he came from good stuff!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Here is a nice article about last years NCC (National Cocker Championship).
> 
> https://purinaproclub.com/resource-library/todays-breeder/issue-85/the-trek-to-Bismarck


Great article. Thanks for sharing, Steve.


----------



## gundogguy

Cliff/Katie pups on the ground. PA.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Cliff/Katie pups on the ground. PA.


Good lookin' pile of fur there! 

Do you have one picked out?


----------



## michgundog

I hope you all enjoy this truly amazing piece of spaniel history! Notice the trial had both cockers and springers. 

http://www.smsstc.org/photos/1960FT.pdf


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> I hope you all enjoy this truly amazing piece of spaniel history! Notice the trial had both cockers and springers.
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/photos/1960FT.pdf
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



That is cool!! I see R. French listed. 
I believe that was the last year of cocker trials until the 1990's. 

Thanks Mike.


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> I hope you all enjoy this truly amazing piece of spaniel history! Notice the trial had both cockers and springers.
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/photos/1960FT.pdf
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Very cool! I love the excuse list.


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I hope you all enjoy this truly amazing piece of spaniel history! Notice the trial had both cockers and springers.
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/photos/1960FT.pdf
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Truly nice stroll down memory lane. Like reading a who's who of spanieldom. Absolute great in the Open all-age folks that literally move the bar up as far as standards of running Springers are concerned. If any one thinks that trials are tough it is because of the work that this group of great trainers and handlers accomplished with their little dogs.
Just amazing Scales, Flick, French, Lorenz, Studnickie,Lane, Craig McQueen, Hric, Just to name a few. I'm blessed to have trained with many of these folks.
If you notice there is no Amateur stake, That did not start until 1964, instead They would run a Limit stake much like the Retriever folks do now they call those stakes Qualifiers. It was a stake for dogs that had no placements in the All-age. This stake had no championship points either.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> I hope you all enjoy this truly amazing piece of spaniel history! Notice the trial had both cockers and springers.
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/photos/1960FT.pdf
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


"A Walk down Memory Lane" Thanks for posting this bit of history up, Mike.

I recognized Larry McQueen whose kennels were in Peapack/Gladstone in what was then rural New Jersey. He handled both Cockers and ESS in trials. My friend bred to several of his ESS Fld CHs and I visited his place several times with him.

NB


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> "A Walk down Memory Lane" Thanks for posting this bit of history up, Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> I recognized Larry McQueen whose kennels were in Peapack/Gladstone in what was then rural New Jersey. He handled both Cockers and ESS in trials. My friend bred to several of his ESS Fld CHs and I visited his place several times with him.
> 
> 
> 
> NB



Larry McQueen was inducted into the Cocker hall of fame this year. 

Very interesting Rod and Hal. Now that I had a little more time to look it over even the ads are cool to read. 
Thanks Mike.


----------



## michgundog

You guys are welcome, I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. I thought it was very fitting to have it part of this thread. I like how formal the trial was back in those days. 


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## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> I hope you all enjoy this truly amazing piece of spaniel history! Notice the trial had both cockers and springers.
> 
> http://www.smsstc.org/photos/1960FT.pdf
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I just got a chance to check this out. Its pretty neat. As dauber said, the ads are pretty interesting too. I especially like how the phone numbers are listed. "LIncoln 5-2717" and "WOodward 2-3400" My mother still refers to her childhood phone number in that format. 

Thanks for posting that. Olde Tymey and sporty too!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## gundogguy

On studying the 1960 FT catalog further, it was interesting to find that Lew Craig a Pro of that era who was responsible for bringing Jack and Marilyn Watkins into the game was slated to possible run dog Num 32, Pam's Blackjack of Camden.
The Watkins who later went on to establish Turtle Creek Kennel were the folks I acquired my 1st FB Springer. Now the Camden dogs were not necessarily top drawer but they did do a creditable job in the field both hunting and trialing. Along with Turtle creek influence were wild hi energy dogs that when crossed with the Druid influence became quite competitive. 
Even today I have an 8 yr bitch that goes back to Pam's Venus of Camden.

and yes, in 1960 our phone in Portage was FIreside 4 -5189


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> On studying the 1960 FT catalog further, it was interesting to find that Lew Craig a Pro of that era who was responsible for bringing Jack and Marilyn Watkins into the game was slated to possible run dog Num 32, Pam's Blackjack of Camden.
> The Watkins who later went on to establish Turtle Creek Kennel were the folks I acquired my 1st FB Springer. Now the Camden dogs were not necessarily top drawer but they did do a creditable job in the field both hunting and trialing. Along with Turtle creek influence were wild hi energy dogs that when crossed with the Druid influence became quite competitive.
> Even today I have an 8 yr bitch that goes back to Pam's Venus of Camden.
> 
> and yes, in 1960 our phone in Portage was FIreside 4 -5189


Those phone numbers are interesting. 

Speaking of Turtle Creek springers, I recently bred my Finn to a bitch that is heavily influenced with those genetics, along with Denslisunflos(R French). Anyway, he only has 1 female pup remaining, if anyone is looking for a top shelf springer PM me for details. Both dog and bitch are great in the field and excellent with kids. 


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## dauber

*Sudbury results for last weekend open from Judge Sansom*

_Gary Wilson taking 1st with Spirit, and 3rd with Finnigan._

_Dan Lusson took 2nd with JB, and Clay Earl 4th with.. . I forgot. Don't know how the Amateur went on Sunday._

_ You all have to join me one time at the Burwash. Remember, Canadian trials are open to All Spaniels._


I think we'll take Bob up on that next June over at Burwash!


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> *Sudbury results for last weekend open from Judge Sansom*
> 
> _Gary Wilson taking 1st with Spirit, and 3rd with Finnigan._
> 
> _Dan Lusson took 2nd with JB, and Clay Earl 4th with.. . I forgot. Don't know how the Amateur went on Sunday._
> 
> _ You all have to join me one time at the Burwash. Remember, Canadian trials are open to All Spaniels._
> 
> 
> I think we'll take Bob up on that next June over at Burwash!


Good luck Steve! ?? Do you know if the Americans have to register their dogs CKC to run over there? Thanks. 


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Good luck Steve! ?? Do you know if the Americans have to register their dogs CKC to run over there? Thanks.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



I don't know all the details but Bob loves running there. I think there is something to do if your dog places. I'll try to remember to ask Bob next time we train.


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Do you know if the Americans have to register their dogs CKC to run over there? Thanks.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 
Yes! Central Ontario trial coming this weekend. Dan Lussen and our very own George Kittle judging


----------



## studdog

Great stuff guys! My first Springer was a Saighton dog just past that era. Preston Mann of course was a top trainer as well. Brings back memories. George


----------



## dauber

dauber said:


> *Sudbury results for last weekend open from Judge Sansom*
> 
> _Gary Wilson taking 1st with Spirit, and 3rd with Finnigan._
> 
> _Dan Lusson took 2nd with JB, and Clay Earl 4th with.. . I forgot. Don't know how the Amateur went on Sunday._
> 
> _You all have to join me one time at the Burwash. Remember, Canadian trials are open to All Spaniels._
> 
> 
> I think we'll take Bob up on that next June over at Burwash!


 
The Amateur results are:
1st Rocky - Gunther Manz
2nd Tess - Bev Bettridge
3rd Sail - Dean Rienke
4th Bee - Shane Creswell

Bob says the dog don't have to be CKC registered to run, but you will have to pay a fee to be listed ($10) then if you place you will want to register to have the points towards a title. 

He also said the birds flew very well and the scenting was good...very few passed birds.

Nice to see you aboard George! Give Emmie a pat on the head!!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> The Amateur results are:
> 1st Rocky - Gunther Manz
> 2nd Tess - Bev Bettridge
> 3rd Sail - Dean Rienke
> 4th Bee - Shane Creswell
> 
> Bob says the dog don't have to be CKC registered to run, but you will have to pay a fee to be listed ($10) *then if you place you will want to register to have the points towards a title.
> * !


 Yes, That's what I said, if you want the whole experience to count get CKC registered. Why pay a tax just to run because of the US registration.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Yes, That's what I said, if you want the whole experience to count get CKC registered. Why pay a tax just to run because of the US registration.



Ahh...now that I see it is $15 to register with ckc might as well do that once instead of $10 more every time entering.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Ahh...now that I see it is $15 to register with ckc might as well do that once instead of $10 more every time entering.


 
Yup the $15.00 is a legitimate fee, the $10.00 is a progressive tax.

Were there any breeds other than ESS competing?


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Were there any breeds other than ESS competing?



I think it was all ess at Burwash.


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## CDN_Cocker

I'll be at Central Ontario's this Saturday. Can't wait to watch my first trial! 

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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I think it was all ess at Burwash.


That sounds about right. CKC system is tough, not in trial standards but just in getting to a trial. The distances are immense and any one trying to be competitive in the provinces must be bless with time and fortune to make the commitment to the CKC spaniel trial game. Cocker game here is rough enough however in Canada trials may be 1000 miles apart each week. I know of one Field Spaniel that has run in the last 5yrs. May even have placed, not sure who the owner/handler is.



CDN_Cocker said:


> I'll be at Central Ontario's this Saturday. Can't wait to watch my first trial!
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


AS I said before have fun, make contacts, let folks know where live and that you are interested in Spaniel training. They would also want to meet someone they could train with, you may very well find a springer person that lives quite close that you could co-op some training with.


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## CDN_Cocker

I sure hope so!


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> I sure hope so!


Bring back Video's and Pics. especially from the shagger's position should be able to get some great shots of brace work and dogs in action!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Can you take pics and vids of trials? I would love to take my gopro along

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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Can you take pics and vids of trials? I would love to take my gopro along
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


 
Well then take it with you! do your thing Just do not make a lot of noise doing your thing or interfere with the activity in any way! 

Over in UK Paul French Video somehow got the exclusive rights to video taping trials so they had all others barred.


----------



## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Can you take pics and vids of trials? I would love to take my gopro along
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Looking forward to your videos have fun tomorrow. Wear a good pair of boots. 


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----------



## CDN_Cocker

Well I'm back to report on my first field trial. No videos as once I got there I realized I wouldn't catch much action on the go-pro but a great day nonetheless! I introduced myself when I got there and they asked me if I would like to shag for the first 2 series for judge Dan Lussen. What a no brainer that was! I was on it like a fat kid on a smartie! The trial of course was mostly springers but there were a couple cockers. It was very neat to see how differently they run, and after watching them I am happy with my choice. One thing I did note though was the size of the cockers! Now, I have only ever been around 3 different ones and 1 of those is my own - the other 2 were his parents over a year ago. I couldn't believe how small they are!!!!!!!! My Jake is a very long leggy boy - about 38lbs (much closer to a springer in size). These were all half of his size! Shorter legs, smaller in general. I would say none were more than 25lbs. I understand now why people say cockers are too small for some work - some of those definitely would be. One was 18 lbs! I can't imagine how hard it would be for it to retrieve a duck or pheasant. Anyways, enough about my cocker on steroids, hahahaha. I had a great view shagging and learned a lot. Dan was very nice and explained to me after each dog what he saw, what he was looking for, and how he felt about it. It was great! It was also a huge confidence booster. I was shocked to see dogs with so little control. And on the other end of the spectrum that didn't seem to have much go in them. I have always thought my guy is fast and has a lot of horsepower but I had nothing to compare him to. After watching the trial yesterday I decided I need to just jump on the wagon and get into it. As far as hunting, flushing, steadiness, and all that I am confident my guy could have competed yesterday. The only thing he is missing is honoring and brace work as I have never done that. My plan going forward is to make the long drive to train with this group a couple times this summer and work on brace work, and hopefully enter 1 or 2 trials this fall. Dan said I can still enter him in puppy until he turns 2 next January but if he sits when whistled and turns when u tell him to just go for the big boys so he can start earning points. No wonder people get so into this! I have only been to 1 and I'm pretty sure the bug bit me pretty hard yesterday...


----------



## WestCoastHunter

CDN_Cocker said:


> I introduced myself when I got there and they asked me if I would like to shag for the first 2 series for judge Dan Lussen. What a no brainer that was! I was on it like a fat kid on a smartie! ..


Never ever say that in Britain. &#128521;


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Well I'm back to report on my first field trial. No videos as once I got there I realized I wouldn't catch much action on the go-pro but a great day nonetheless! I introduced myself when I got there and they asked me if I would like to shag for the first 2 series for judge Dan Lussen. What a no brainer that was! I was on it like a fat kid on a smartie! The trial of course was mostly springers but there were a couple cockers. It was very neat to see how differently they run, and after watching them I am happy with my choice. One thing I did note though was the size of the cockers! Now, I have only ever been around 3 different ones and 1 of those is my own - the other 2 were his parents over a year ago. I couldn't believe how small they are!!!!!!!! My Jake is a very long leggy boy - about 38lbs (much closer to a springer in size). These were all half of his size! Shorter legs, smaller in general. I would say none were more than 25lbs. I understand now why people say cockers are too small for some work - some of those definitely would be. One was 18 lbs! I can't imagine how hard it would be for it to retrieve a duck or pheasant. Anyways, enough about my cocker on steroids, hahahaha. I had a great view shagging and learned a lot. Dan was very nice and explained to me after each dog what he saw, what he was looking for, and how he felt about it. It was great! It was also a huge confidence booster. * I was shocked to see dogs with so little control. And on the other end of the spectrum that didn't seem to have* *much go in them.* I have always thought my guy is fast and has a lot of horsepower but I had nothing to compare him to. After watching the trial yesterday I decided I need to just jump on the wagon and get into it. As far as hunting, flushing, steadiness, and all that I am confident my guy could have competed yesterday. The only thing he is missing is honoring and brace work as I have never done that. My plan going forward is to make the long drive to train with this group a couple times this summer and work on brace work, and hopefully enter 1 or 2 trials this fall. Dan said I can still enter him in puppy until he turns 2 next January but if he sits when whistled and turns when u tell him to just go for the big boys so he can start earning points. No wonder people get so into this! I have only been to 1 and I'm pretty sure the bug bit me pretty hard yesterday...


Good for you CDN!!, the Spaniel trial game has always been good at "Tom Sawyering" the new guy into doing the work.
Though I'm a bit confused about the potion of your thread that is highlighted. How can dogs with low drive and not much go be out of control?
Any way glad you finally got to see the spaniel in action, shame it was not on pheasants, damn chukar trials any way! Hope you get on with your new training chums, we trained this morning with folks that we have trained with for some 30 yrs they are really good friends. we enjoy them as much if not more than the dog work!



WestCoastHunter said:


> Never ever say that in Britain. &#128521;


Right you are WCH the first time I mentioned that in a pub in Wales I had 1/2 dozen or so dog men want to follow me home to the USA and run dogs here:lol::lol:

The Welchies never thought we Yanks were much at dog training , however they did think we had more fun at trial when were "shagging" for a judge. Until they realize it was nothing more than carrying a pack basket on our backs with the shot birds in it. Then it not sounds so glamorous.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Zac doing some water work.
> 
> http://youtu.be/593w7eZzyPQ


Nice retrieve, Zac! Good boy!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Zac doing some water work.
> 
> http://youtu.be/593w7eZzyPQ


Good Boy, Zac.

Where's that "Like" button 

NB


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Zac doing some water work.
> 
> http://youtu.be/593w7eZzyPQ





NATTY BUMPO said:


> Good Boy, Zac.
> 
> Where's that "Like" button
> 
> NB


"like button indeed" Good conditioner and cooler offer!


----------



## gundogguy

All you Spanielers' we are Back from W. Virginia and spending some at Salmy kennels with Mike and Julie Wallace.
The link to a very special video in my mind any way was the seeing Mike's 
FC CFC Kelly and NFC FC CFC Cliff have a workout. Both of these dogs are littermates from a litter of 6 all pups in the litter made FC or AFC fairly impressive from a really a no name breeding. The only link was that their grand sire was Mike's NFC FC Zorro.

Combined these two dogs have 45 wins between them not counting other placements.

Cliff is magnificent and surely will go to the Hall of Fame, but heck he has it easy compared to his littermate sister he has both lungs to breathe with.

The first dog in the vid is Kelly a B/W bitch that has been High point dog 2X's in her career and currently is in the hunt for a 3rd High point award she has 20 points in the current year of 2014. When dog folks talk about heart, sometimes new folks have a hard time understanding what is meant by the phrase "having heart" Kelly is the definition of that phrase. 18 months ago she was afflicted by "mean seeds" she is running and competing at a top level with _one lung_ and only one nerve attached to her diaphragm, During recuperation she had to learn how to breathe all over again. 

She is 7 yrs now so a litter is prolly is not in the book, but if there was I would certainly be in line!

Sorry about the quality of the vid as I have mentioned before as the cover gets tough video work gets tough as well. For the best view watch in full screen mode


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> All you Spanielers' we are Back from W. Virginia and spending some at Salmy kennels with Mike and Julie Wallace.
> The link to a very special video in my mind any way was the seeing Mike's
> FC CFC Kelly and NFC FC CFC Cliff have a workout. Both of these dogs are littermates from a litter of 6 all pups in the litter made FC or AFC fairly impressive from a really a no name breeding. The only link was that their grand sire was Mike's NFC FC Zorro.
> 
> Combined these two dogs have 45 wins between them not counting other placements.
> 
> Cliff is magnificent and surely will go to the Hall of Fame, but heck he has it easy compared to his littermate sister he has both lungs to breathe with.
> 
> The first dog in the vid is Kelly a B/W bitch that has been High point dog 2X's in her career and currently is in the hunt for a 3rd High point award she has 20 points in the current year of 2014. When dog folks talk about heart, sometimes new folks have a hard time understanding what is meant by the phrase "having heart" Kelly is the definition of that phrase. 18 months ago she was afflicted by "mean seeds" she is running and competing at a top level with _one lung_ and only one nerve attached to her diaphragm, During recuperation she had to learn how to breathe all over again.
> 
> She is 7 yrs now so a litter is prolly is not in the book, but if there was I would certainly be in line!
> 
> Sorry about the quality of the vid as I have mentioned before as the cover gets tough video work gets tough as well. For the best view watch in full screen mode
> 
> Cliff Kelly 06 27 14 - YouTube



It is very nice to see Kelly running so well!! Also a pleasure to see Mike working out 2 of the most outstanding spaniels on the face of the earth. Thanks!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> All you Spanielers' we are Back from W. Virginia and spending some at Salmy kennels with Mike and Julie Wallace.
> The link to a very special video in my mind any way was the seeing Mike's
> FC CFC Kelly and NFC FC CFC Cliff have a workout. Both of these dogs are littermates from a litter of 6 all pups in the litter made FC or AFC fairly impressive from a really a no name breeding. The only link was that their grand sire was Mike's NFC FC Zorro.
> 
> Combined these two dogs have 45 wins between them not counting other placements.
> 
> Cliff is magnificent and surely will go to the Hall of Fame, but heck he has it easy compared to his littermate sister he has both lungs to breathe with.
> 
> The first dog in the vid is Kelly a B/W bitch that has been High point dog 2X's in her career and currently is in the hunt for a 3rd High point award she has 20 points in the current year of 2014. When dog folks talk about heart, sometimes new folks have a hard time understanding what is meant by the phrase "having heart" Kelly is the definition of that phrase. 18 months ago she was afflicted by "mean seeds" she is running and competing at a top level with _one lung_ and only one nerve attached to her diaphragm, During recuperation she had to learn how to breathe all over again.
> 
> She is 7 yrs now so a litter is prolly is not in the book, but if there was I would certainly be in line!
> 
> Sorry about the quality of the vid as I have mentioned before as the cover gets tough video work gets tough as well. For the best view watch in full screen mode
> 
> Cliff Kelly 06 27 14 - YouTube


Really enjoyed watching that video. Awesome spaniel work. You'd never know Kelli had any kind of handicap. So glad she was able to get back in the field and do what she was bred to do. Thanks so much for sharing.


----------



## gundogguy

Mike running Cockers now, Here Layla makes a mark and delivery.






Have a good ,safe, 4th Holiday. Me smoker is going full tilt! Thank God we Americans have an exceptional country. Protect that defend that!


----------



## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> Mike running Cockers now, Here Layla makes a mark and delivery.
> 
> Layla 6 27 14 - YouTube
> 
> Have a good ,safe, 4th Holiday. Me smoker is going full tilt! Thank God we Americans have an exceptional country. Protect that defend that!


SAAAA-LUTE!!!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Mike running Cockers now, Here Layla makes a mark and delivery.
> 
> Layla 6 27 14 - YouTube
> 
> Have a good ,safe, 4th Holiday. Me smoker is going full tilt! Thank God we Americans have an exceptional country. Protect that defend that!



Nice retrieve. I bet Chris and John like that. 

Hope everyone has a safe and enjoyable 4th. My smoker is going to be full and bellowing today too.


----------



## JimP

jimp said:


> Well, the entertainment from the new pup has started.
> What a joy to have one again after all these years.
> Tips been exploring his huge yard, lots of new and intriguing sticks, leaves, rocks, bugs, moms plants.
> 
> This might have been a U-Tube winner had it been taped...
> Didnt have the camera close and it all happened too quick anyway.
> 
> Hes prancing around the perimeter, just looking for something to get in to, when the lower bough of a big pine tree moved in the breeze and caught his eye. Its only about a foot off the ground so no big deal for him to walk up and sniff it.
> Instead, Lickity split from 10 feet away, he charges - in that 9 week puppy wobble, jumps and catches the end of it and continues running...
> Physics tells us that the increasing springiness of the branch will soon overcome a 4 lb puppys momentum if he doesnt let go.
> The resulting action/reaction wound up being halfway between a Tarzan swing and a Trapeze artists somersault.
> No harm, grabbed it again for a couple minute tug of war.


Update on progress at 16 weeks old, not without a bit of optimistic prejudice however...

Last night there were a few smaller fireworks going off in the neighborhood before the townships big show at the lake a block away.
Tippy was startled and hopped a little - came and sat under my legs.
I went out on the deck with him still following under my legs.
As the show started I went down in the yard towards the noise, a few steps closer every minute or so, showing no concern - just my own curiosity. 
He followed each move and got some reassurance with a chin pat and treat...
As the noise started reaching a crescendo, and a huge finale, I started throwing his ball and him fetching it a dozen times, the noise was not a distraction and he fetched like a champ each time.
Not going to get out any guns around him yet, but what a little hero at his first Booming experience.

Hes 99% housebroke, rings his bell hanging on the door handle to go out or stands at the door and woofs (actually more of a weef in the puppy voice)
Loves a car ride, understands the command to go pee before we get in
Had a couple of ATV rides in his basket, calm as can be
Comes 95% of the time when called, unless an interesting frog or June bug has him distracted
Walks off leash at a reasonable distance, maybe 20 yards and looks back frequently for direction 
Fetches a specific toy 75% by its name, otherwise you get whats handy
Follows hand signals to zig zag search for a lost ball in the grass 
Drops it 90% of the time at your feet upon retrieve, no tug of war
Stops in his tracks 90% of the time upon NO!
Goes to his kennel when instructed to go to bed
Lays upside down passively for his Tick check
Calmly sat through his first wet towel wipe down bath, as he did during the brushing and hair drier

Cant forget hes still the puppy with the jumping, nipping and testing as to what he can and cant do, or chew...
That look in the eyes: Im the baby, gotta love me, sucker us every time.


----------



## JAM

jimp said:


> Update on progress at 16 weeks old, not without a bit of optimistic prejudice however...
> 
> Last night there were a few smaller fireworks going off in the neighborhood before the townships big show at the lake a block away.
> Tippy was startled and hopped a little - came and sat under my legs.
> I went out on the deck with him still following under my legs.
> As the show started I went down in the yard towards the noise, a few steps closer every minute or so, showing no concern - just my own curiosity.
> He followed each move and got some reassurance with a chin pat and treat...
> As the noise started reaching a crescendo, and a huge finale, I started throwing his ball and him fetching it a dozen times, the noise was not a distraction and he fetched like a champ each time.
> Not going to get out any guns around him yet, but what a little hero at his first Booming experience.
> 
> Hes 99% housebroke, rings his bell hanging on the door handle to go out or stands at the door and woofs (actually more of a weef in the puppy voice)
> Loves a car ride, understands the command to go pee before we get in
> Had a couple of ATV rides in his basket, calm as can be
> Comes 95% of the time when called, unless an interesting frog or June bug has him distracted
> Walks off leash at a reasonable distance, maybe 20 yards and looks back frequently for direction
> Fetches a specific toy 75% by its name, otherwise you get whats handy
> Follows hand signals to zig zag search for a lost ball in the grass
> Drops it 90% of the time at your feet upon retrieve, no tug of war
> Stops in his tracks 90% of the time upon NO!
> Goes to his kennel when instructed to go to bed
> Lays upside down passively for his Tick check
> Calmly sat through his first wet towel wipe down bath, as he did during the brushing and hair drier
> 
> Cant forget hes still the puppy with the jumping, nipping and testing as to what he can and cant do, or chew...
> That look in the eyes: Im the baby, gotta love me, sucker us every time.


Glad you're enjoying your new pup. Your training methods are a little outside the usual traditional methods but it seems to be working for you.

Hope you continue to have many more fun days ahead with your new charge.


----------



## JimP

JAM said:


> Glad you're enjoying your new pup. Your training methods are a little outside the usual traditional methods but it seems to be working for you.
> 
> Hope you continue to have many more fun days ahead with your new charge.


:lol: Traditional has never been a strong suit with ours.
Not much probability of hunting except for mushrooms.
Mostly just a family member going and doing whatever we do.
Having fun and being a good citizen, keeping safe, with our help is the objective.

Stopping, sitting and looking back at a sharp "NO" has saved any one of them several times from mishaps of some sort.


----------



## gundogguy

This particular thread offers many reasonable and legitimate training concepts and resources for developing the flushing spaniel.

For any one that may be "lurking", and that is a good thing, the following link offers a reasonable approach to introduction to gun fire as there is.
There are many ways to train a dog,however all techniques will follow basic 
canine behavioral concepts and practices.

The video shown is a not a one and done exercise as such and depending on the individual dog I would look at repeating this any where from three to seven times to be sure my youngster is properly gun proofed. I would also include birds, either dead or alive in this process along with bumpers.

Protect your little guys and gals do not push them toward the gun if they cower for any reason.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> This particular thread offers many reasonable and legitimate training concepts and resources for developing the flushing spaniel.
> 
> For any one that may be "lurking", and that is a good thing, the following link offers a reasonable approach to introduction to gun fire as there is.
> There are many ways to train a dog,however all techniques will follow basic
> canine behavioral concepts and practices.
> 
> The video shown is a not a one and done exercise as such and depending on the individual dog I would look at repeating this any where from three to seven times to be sure my youngster is properly gun proofed. I would also include birds, either dead or alive in this process along with bumpers.
> 
> Protect your little guys and gals do not push them toward the gun if they cower for any reason.
> 
> Introduce Your Dog to Gunfire - YouTube


Great Advice right here from GDG. The proper introduction to the gun is an essential first step in training a bird dog.

I'll add one reminder: *DO NOT TAKE A PUPPY TO A GUN CLUB/SHOOTING RANGE TO INTODUCE IT TO GUNFIRE!!!*

If I had a dollar for every time I heard this idiotic advice, I'd be able to pay for a trip Out West this fall.

NB


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> This particular thread offers many reasonable and legitimate training concepts and resources for developing the flushing spaniel.
> 
> For any one that may be "lurking", and that is a good thing, the following link offers a reasonable approach to introduction to gun fire as there is.
> There are many ways to train a dog,however all techniques will follow basic
> canine behavioral concepts and practices.
> 
> The video shown is a not a one and done exercise as such and depending on the individual dog I would look at repeating this any where from three to seven times to be sure my youngster is properly gun proofed. I would also include birds, either dead or alive in this process along with bumpers.
> 
> Protect your little guys and gals do not push them toward the gun if they cower for any reason.
> 
> Introduce Your Dog to Gunfire - YouTube




This is one if the more important posts. This is a good way to go about intro to gun. As Hal says take it slow over 3-7 days. You don't have to get all the way up to pup the first few times doing this either. All dogs are different not necessarily better, but different. One will zip through, one will take a week or so. Most important again as Hal says if pup hesitates or cowers at all increase the distance. 

Great post Hal.


----------



## gundogguy

The rules are the same there, No retrieve unless the boss says so!
Zeta gets about 1 in 3 just to keep her honest!
Stay cool I would think the "dog days of summer" are here now!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> The rules are the same there, No retrieve unless the boss says so!
> Zeta gets about 1 in 3 just to keep her honest!
> Stay cool I would think the "dog days of summer" are here now!
> 
> Zeta 6 27 14 - YouTube


Nice video with great advice - as usual. Thanks!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> The rules are the same there, No retrieve unless the boss says so!
> Zeta gets about 1 in 3 just to keep her honest!
> Stay cool I would think the "dog days of summer" are here now!
> 
> Zeta 6 27 14 - YouTube



Zeta looking mighty good. Gotta keep em honest. That's good advice. 

Cool is no trouble here, not sure if we have hit 80 yet. Most nights in 40's and 50's.


----------



## gundogguy

Zeta - War Princess, celebrates her 2nd birthday today She is no longer a puppy! Gearing up to run in the AA, beginning this fall! Zeta and her litter mate sister, Zara, Battle Queen, are celebrating together, should be special to see them both out on the circuit this fall!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta - War Princess, celebrates her 2nd birthday today She is no longer a puppy! Gearing up to run in the AA, beginning this fall! Zeta and her litter mate sister, Zara, Battle Queen, are celebrating together, should be special to see them both out on the circuit this fall!



Happy birthday Zeta and Zara!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Zeta - War Princess, celebrates her 2nd birthday today She is no longer a puppy! Gearing up to run in the AA, beginning this fall! Zeta and her litter mate sister, Zara, Battle Queen, are celebrating together, should be special to see them both out on the circuit this fall!


Happy 2nd Birthday, Zeta & Zara! Hope you both get a lot of treats.


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## gundogguy

FC Cliff X FC Sassy babies born today 11 in all!


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> FC Cliff X FC Sassy babies born today 11 in all!


Sassy has that proud mama look with her basket full of love. Good girl, Sassy!


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## Gavan

I sent you a private message.
Thanks in advance


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## JAM

Jeepers learned to swim today. He watched Stormy do a few water retrieves and he took it from there.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Jeepers learned to swim today. He watched Stormy do a few water retrieves and he took it from there.


Cool! Nice to see one of the hurdles behind you! always an exciting moment when pupster goes from land cover to water cover!
Your pics are excellent!


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## michgundog

Hi hope there are lukers and posters that will be fortunate to make this event!!










Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## dauber

JAM said:


> Jeepers learned to swim today. He watched Stormy do a few water retrieves and he took it from there.



Good job Jeepers! Very good way for into to water.


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Hi hope there are lukers and posters that will be fortunate to make this event!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Good luck to all shooting for this one!


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## Gavan

Haven't gotten my little guy to take the plunge yet. I think he will be a swim only when he has to kind of dog.


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Hi hope there are lukers and posters that will be fortunate to make this event!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire




*Lukers and Posters* :lol::lol: Thanks for bringing these dates to the schedule! I wonder how many Lukers and poster are running in the Amateur AA?




2014 NOC 
*[SIZE=+3]The[/SIZE]* *[SIZE=+3]2014 [/SIZE]**[SIZE=+3]National (Open)[/SIZE]**[SIZE=+3] English Springer Spaniel[/SIZE]* *[SIZE=+3]Championship 

[/SIZE]*Spivey/Zenda Kansas area

*President (Chairman) Don Bramwell
FT Chairman Bob Iversen
 FT Secretary and Treasurer Mhari Peschel

** Wednesday, November 19, 2014 to conclusion
 Judges: Alex Stewart and John Knowles*​


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> *Lukers and Posters* :lol::lol: Thanks for bringing these dates to the schedule! I wonder how many Lukers and poster are running in the Amateur AA?
> 
> Sorry Lurkers & Posters? I have a one that will hopefully be in some AA battles this fall, but I doubt if he'll make it to IL in Dec. I have a good feeling about some training partners prospects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2014 NOC
> *[SIZE=+3]The[/SIZE]* *[SIZE=+3]2014 [/SIZE]**[SIZE=+3]National (Open)[/SIZE]**[SIZE=+3] English Springer Spaniel[/SIZE]* *[SIZE=+3]Championship
> 
> [/SIZE]*Spivey/Zenda Kansas area
> 
> *President (Chairman) Don Bramwell
> FT Chairman Bob Iversen
> FT Secretary and Treasurer Mhari Peschel
> 
> ** Wednesday, November 19, 2014 to conclusion
> Judges: Alex Stewart and John Knowles*​





Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> Zeta - War Princess, celebrates her 2nd birthday today She is no longer a puppy! Gearing up to run in the AA, beginning this fall! Zeta and her litter mate sister, Zara, Battle Queen, are celebrating together, should be special to see them both out on the circuit this fall!


Happy belated b-day Zeta!



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Jeepers learned to swim today. He watched Stormy do a few water retrieves and he took it from there.


Great photos as always Jill! Just returned from a week camping at Brevoort where Belle learned to swim and retrieve from the water last year. She had a blast this year as well. She definitely likes retrieves from water better than land! LOL. Belle is now home and doing a lot of sleeping on the couch, loveseat, bed, etc. She's whooped!

RE: dog days of summer from a post by GDG (and commented on by dauber)... Just a bit on the chilly side here in da yoopee. Ran the camper furnace a little bit a couple of nights to take the chill out of my daughter's bones. Could see the dog's breath a few times. Belle swam and swam and retrieved stick after stick in the chilly water. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## JAM

Thanks everyone for the kind words. 

Gavan, My 9 yr. old Bullet would rather not do water retrieves or blinds but he does them only because he's so obedient. If he's hot it's another story. He heads right for the closest, nastiest mud hole he can find to cool off. 

A few notes from our training woes:

I'm glad Jeepers is swimming. Now to get him to bring things back to me. He's not inclined to get on the place boards. He'd rather get under them and lay down than get up on them. I lowered the legs on one of the ones I built recently just so he can't get under it. I have one by the back door and he gets on it before I let him out, feed him on a place board, give him a ton of treats on them, etc. - only happy time but if there's a retrieve involved the place board is not where he's headed.

I discovered accidentally that he's afraid of the dog next door. It's a little white dog (American Eskimo?) that's yippy. His name is Snowball. Jeepers had a ball I tossed for him and I was kneeling down waiting for him to bring it to me when Snowball came over barking up a storm. Jeepers ran right into my arms with the ball! I think I'm going to have to hire Snowball to help with our retriever training. 

Twice now, he's come with a chipmunk. There's no way he's going to give it to me. I'm quite sure that Bullet caught them but Jeepers manages to take them away probably by nipping poor Bullet in the foot causing him to drop the prize. The one he had tonight was very much alive and Jeepers kept lunging at it and pawing it but not picking it up. It finally managed to escape so we could go back in the house.


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Zeta - War Princess, celebrates her 2nd birthday today She is no longer a puppy! Gearing up to run in the AA, beginning this fall! Zeta and her litter mate sister, Zara, Battle Queen, are celebrating together, should be special to see them both out on the circuit this fall!


Great Pics, Luv those names. Good Luck to both girls out on the fall campaign!

NB


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## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> Jeepers learned to swim today. He watched Stormy do a few water retrieves and he took it from there.


Summertime!!

Great Pics Jam! Your Jeepers has got a whole lot of "the right stuff" already built in.  That makes training sooooo much easier. Thanks for posting this training scenario.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Thanks everyone for the kind words.
> 
> 
> A few notes from our training woes:
> 
> I'm glad Jeepers is swimming. Now to get him to* bring things back to me. He's not inclined to get on the place boards. He'd rather get under them and lay down than get up on them. I lowered the legs on one of the ones I built recently just so he can't get under it. I have one by the* back door and he gets on it before I let him out, feed him on a place board, give him a ton of treats on them, etc. - only happy time but if there's a retrieve involved the place board is not where he's headed.
> 
> 
> .


Increase the value of the place board. I do not believe in treats used to establish behaviors, however to establish behaviors sometimes it does take a very thin slice of hotdog,a premium treat one easily devoured . 
!/2 dozen slices and Jeepers will believe the "place" is the great place on earth. Once that is establish you will be able to wean him off quickly of the treats and establish that you and the place and a bumper is heaven.


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Increase the value of the place board. I do not believe in treats used to establish behaviors, however to establish behaviors sometimes it does take a very thin slice of hotdog,a premium treat one easily devoured .
> !/2 dozen slices and Jeepers will believe the "place" is the great place on earth. Once that is establish you will be able to wean him off quickly of the treats and establish that you and the place and a bumper is heaven.


OK, GDG. Thanks for the tip. We'll pick up some hotdogs today and see what we can do. Everything else is coming together.

I was checking out some new training grounds yesterday. I, of course, had to snap a few. 

Stormy managed to find a wet spot to cool off in









Jeepers having some fun in the cover









Cover's good. Bring on the birds!


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## dauber

JAM said:


> OK, GDG. Thanks for the tip. We'll pick up some hotdogs today and see what we can do. Everything else is coming together.
> 
> 
> 
> I was checking out some new training grounds yesterday. I, of course, had to snap a few.
> 
> 
> 
> Stormy managed to find a wet spot to cool off in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeepers having some fun in the cover
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cover's good. Bring on the birds!



Hotdog!!! I'll be there for training then. You won't have to slice it for me either lol!


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Hotdog!!! I'll be there for training then. You won't have to slice it for me either lol!


So... You're not weaned off the treats yet? 

Looking forward to some training! See ya there!


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## dauber

I think Dante enjoyed his 11th birthday!


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> I think Dante enjoyed his 11th birthday!


Happy Birthday Dante!


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## michgundog

Happy bday Dante!! I would say feathers in the mouth of a bird dog would be the same as cake to a human. Great picture. 


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## JAM

yooperguy2003 said:


> Happy Birthday Dante!


Happy Birthday, Dante! You look GREAT!


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Happy Birthday, Dante! You look GREAT!


Congrats Steve and Karen for keeping Dante, healthy wealthy and wise all these years. Yup like we often say around the training group,
"Good dog, He had the pic of the litter in his owners", and he chose well".


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## dauber

Dante thanks all for the bd wishes. 

Had a very good tvessc trading today. Here is Jeepers with his breeder and Jill.


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## dauber

Here is Jeepers looking for a bird. 









Here is Jeepers daddy coming in on a retrieve. 











Here is Karen doing something with Smoke...ya the cover is great !! Thanks JAM for the great training grounds.


----------



## JAM

Dauber, 

Thank you so much for taking the pics. 

Had a great time today. Anxious to get back out there. So glad the new training grounds are working out for us. All the dogs did a fine job today.

~JAM (Jill)


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Dante thanks all for the bd wishes.
> 
> Had a very good tvessc trading today. Here is Jeepers with his breeder and Jill.





dauber said:


> Here is Jeepers looking for a bird.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Jeepers daddy coming in on a retrieve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Karen doing something with Smoke...ya the cover is great !! Thanks JAM for the great training grounds.





JAM said:


> Dauber,
> 
> Thank you so much for taking the pics.
> 
> Had a great time today. Anxious to get back out there. So glad the new training grounds are working out for us. All the dogs did a fine job today.
> 
> ~JAM (Jill)


Good to see the "Northern Tier" is getting 'er done! Looks like Fab grounds that's for sure.


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## Gavan

on place boards. I have weaned Gavan completely from the treats in a couple of weeks. I use liver treats or the commercial bacon treats broken into small pieces. The pup will be focused on your hands so I move my hands up to my face since you will want them to focus on your face in the future. 

Command "place" "you may need a checkcord to get the pup on the board" hup them, then say "gooood place" and give him a tidbit. Stay still and expext him to stay on the board. If he moves put him back and say "place". If he will stay there, be happy with that for a few sessions.
As GDG says make it a happy and secure place to be. No rough corrections or it will be anything but.

Next you can work on walking away with the pup hupped on the board and then reward him if he stays. Make sure this is ingrained before you move on.

Next I begin teaching hand signals and "come" by adding a second board. Add a second board on your right maybe 5 feet away from the first (you will increase this distance to 10 feet or more later). Stand with your feet against the first board facing the pup, who is directly below you. Command place and cast,encourage the pup onto the second board. It may not go smoothly but the key is to get him there and then say "gooood place" and reward him on the second board. Then move around to the side of the first board facing the pup and out your toes directly against the side of the board (you're now in line with boards, not perpindicular as when you started). Bend down and say "come, or here" and encourage the pup to come to you and back to the first board. If he does so, reward him with a tidbit. Be careful when rewarding to not get the pup all excited that he comes off the board. Bring the tidbit in low so the pups rear doesn't come off the board. You are teaching multiple things here: Hup and stay hupped, casting (leaving safety), and "come or here". You're also teaching the pup to learn.

You can do this with some lumber and 10-12 feet of linear space in your yard or driveway. With young pups make sure there are no distractions when you are working on this like other dogs, people, birds, food, etc. As far as the pup crawling under the "place board" thing I wouldn't know since my boards are on the ground and barely big enough to fit a spaniel hupped properly. I have no experience with larger "platforms" and really don't know where that idea came from. I'm guessing the trainer didn't want to bend over and trained some bigger dogs as well so needed a bigger board. My board size came from Gary Breitbarth who developed the concept with Jim Dobbs. Just a guess but they want precision, and the smaller the board the more focused the dog has to be to comply. 

Hope this helps and I would be happy to help you work through it.


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## JAM

Gavan said:


> on place boards. I have weaned Gavan completely from the treats in a couple of weeks. I use liver treats or the commercial bacon treats broken into small pieces. The pup will be focused on your hands so I move my hands up to my face since you will want them to focus on your face in the future.
> 
> Command "place" "you may need a checkcord to get the pup on the board" hup them, then say "gooood place" and give him a tidbit. Stay still and expext him to stay on the board. If he moves put him back and say "place". If he will stay there, be happy with that for a few sessions.
> As GDG says make it a happy and secure place to be. No rough corrections or it will be anything but.
> 
> Next you can work on walking away with the pup hupped on the board and then reward him if he stays. Make sure this is ingrained before you move on.
> 
> Next I begin teaching hand signals and "come" by adding a second board. Add a second board on your right maybe 5 feet away from the first (you will increase this distance to 10 feet or more later). Stand with your feet against the first board facing the pup, who is directly below you. Command place and cast,encourage the pup onto the second board. It may not go smoothly but the key is to get him there and then say "gooood place" and reward him on the second board. Then move around to the side of the first board facing the pup and out your toes directly against the side of the board (you're now in line with boards, not perpindicular as when you started). Bend down and say "come, or here" and encourage the pup to come to you and back to the first board. If he does so, reward him with a tidbit. Be careful when rewarding to not get the pup all excited that he comes off the board. Bring the tidbit in low so the pups rear doesn't come off the board. You are teaching multiple things here: Hup and stay hupped, casting (leaving safety), and "come or here". You're also teaching the pup to learn.
> 
> You can do this with some lumber and 10-12 feet of linear space in your yard or driveway. With young pups make sure there are no distractions when you are working on this like other dogs, people, birds, food, etc. As far as the pup crawling under the "place board" thing I wouldn't know since my boards are on the ground and barely big enough to fit a spaniel hupped properly. I have no experience with larger "platforms" and really don't know where that idea came from. I'm guessing the trainer didn't want to bend over and trained some bigger dogs as well so needed a bigger board. My board size came from Gary Breitbarth who developed the concept with Jim Dobbs. Just a guess but they want precision, and the smaller the board the more focused the dog has to be to comply.
> 
> Hope this helps and I would be happy to help you work through it.


Gavan, Thank you so much for the tips. I really appreciate your help along with GDG and Dauber.

Today Jeepers and I went in the basement and did some place board training on sturdy cardboard boxes which he can't try to crawl under. He did real well. He's staying at "hup" most of the time. One side of the basement is like a long hallway (I used to use it for archery practice in the winter). I put him on the "placeboard" and walked around the basement out of his sight. If he stayed I went back to him and told him, "look at". When he'd make eye contact a "yes" (used as a marker like a click) and then a treat. He came off once I believe because part of a treat fell on the ground next to the box and he saw it. Oops! 

I was also successful in calling him back and forth between the boxes which are almost the length of the basement (58 feet I think). Everything was going great until he found an old rolled up sock. There was no way he was going to bring that to me or the box/placeboard and it took me a little while to get it back from him. I'll have to be sure there's nothing he can help himself to before we start next time.

Once this is going like clockwork I'll start the casting to the second box.

So... That's my small progress report.


----------



## dauber

Good to hear JAM. Be careful of underwhelming him with too many reps. Is the sock grabbing and play because your surpassed his attention span. None the less removing the sock will be good. 

Gavan, I like the taller boards too get pup off the ground and more in the zone with me. My next pup will have a 4 foot tall board. McGagh likes at least 18" tall to make it clear to pup he is on or off the place board. I don't believe he used any lead to keep pup on the board because it was crystal clear even to very young pups they were not in their element. But I can see that being a problem with a low board that Gary uses. I have transitioned to lower boards now with no trouble. But I do still like the taller ones to save bending over to the little cockers. 

Good job spanielers.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Good to hear JAM. Be careful of underwhelming him with too many reps. Is the sock grabbing and play because your surpassed his attention span. None the less removing the sock will be good.
> 
> Good job spanielers.


Good point, Dauber. I have never used placeboards before so I'm sure there'll be a learning curve. I'm terrified of doing something to set Jeepers' training back.

The sock was full of baking soda and was amongst some camping equipment that's stored in the basement. I was surprised when he came up with it.

We'll keep at it!


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## gundogguy

Try not to take it all in at once.
Links to Jim Dobbs and Gary Breitbarth 

Jim Dobbs http://dobbsdogs.com/library/flushing/index.html

Gary B. http://www.gundogsonline.com/video/hunting-dog-training/place-board-training-part-1.htm


Concerning the "place" will be covered in my next post.


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## gundogguy

The "place' may be any item that defines itself against the area that it is occupying. The "place" may be may of wood plastic or rubber and I have ebven use a large boulder in the field to help proof and chain behaviors. In fact more varied items are always helpful for the dog as well.
A rubber door mat would be the lowest place one could use, many Nonslip retriever folks carry a doormat with them where ever the train. as mention by dauber elevated places are good for dog and man. Think about finishing that retrieve the pupster has to jump a certain height while still holding onto the object.

All be it this video is of a young retriever having a work out it is her 2nd experience with the place process





 
The really important thing about place training is that it lets the handler become very creative in presenting problems for the dog to solve, Have fun with it!!


----------



## dauber

Good stuff Gundogguy! Note Gary does this in his kitchen. He also says pup will need many reps to have it down cold. I started Zac in the kitchen in a January on a plastic step stool. We kept at it until he was enthusiastic, happy and snappy. His attitude doing any task was as important to me as doing it correctly was. Remember to break things down to step by step, teach each step well. When pup gets underwhelmed take a step, if overwhelmed step back. 

The place boards besides being a nice spot for me to sit, and to elevate pup so I didn't have to bend over, they really helped me read if pup was bored or overwhelmed. 

You can use anything as GDG says. One warning though, I've used our picnic table and if we are eating supper on it keep a close eye on your spaniel or they will be in the middle of your pulled pork!!


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## JAM

Thanks, Guys! And yeah... No picnic tables!


----------



## Gavan

on the place board conversation. LOL! at Dauber on being focused on the attitude of his cockers. That's because they are cockers!

Just a thought but I think some folks are using the "platforms" as a cross between a place board and a trained retrieve bench. One of the big benefits of the bench is getting the dog up at eye level and to some extent you are gaining that with a higher platform or place board. My dogs have always loved getting up on the bench and being at eye level. You gain a rapport that is hard to achieve when you are towering over them when they are on the ground.

Breitbarth teaches the trained retrieve first and is the foundation for everything else. Trained retrieve, boards, then buckets/barrels. He uses fun bumpers to loosen the pup up when working the boards. Fetching and delivering the dummy back to the board is not optional and that is why the trained retrieve is done first. The level of perfection he requires when teaching Hold and then Fetch is phenominal. Hold is taught by placing the object in the pups mouth and commanding HOLD. Fetch is then teaching the dog to reach for the object and take it in their mouth. They are two distinct commands and should be taught as such. Hold is holding the object without chewing, rolling, or moving for that matter. Fetch intentionally grabbing any object, any time on command and then holding it as above.

The boards are not optional either and involve some level of pressure. the level of pressure is determined by the pups reaction. The bottom line is the removal of options from the dog. No reaction will solve their problem except compliance with the command. So after the session, which will involve some pressure until execution is perfect, a fun bumper (not steady) will be thrown to loosen the pup up.

You can't advance until you have a reliable retrieve and delivery.If you do you will have holes that will crop up later. Something I am thinking lots about right now is being careful not to involve birds too early since introducing birds ramps up the pups intensity drastically and I need a strong foundation before moving forward.

Good discussion. thanks for all the posts.


----------



## yooperguy

Great information in these conversations. Thanks for sharing with us.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Hey!! We got him the weekend before for the Tilden Valley trial! Don't be stealin our shagger


 !!


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Guys,
> 
> Some bad news yesterday re Cocker trial..... it seems my services for that weekend have been previously "booked".
> 
> SWMBO has informed me that I am serving as an usher for her concerts that weekend. I have to show up in a clean white shirt plus a good flashlight. And since I will be away from home hunting for two weeks in November, I need the brownie points. Those who are married will get the picture.
> 
> But never fear, "NB is good for the beer". It will just have to be at another time and another place. Good Luck to Dauber and the other entries.
> 
> NB


Well that seals the deal. By a landslide of votes. It looks like Smoked Prime Rib. Natty, you will be missed...Karen how about another slice, we have plenty now!!


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Hey!! We got him the weekend before for the Tilden Valley trial! Don't be stealin our shagger


Is the cocker trial in OH this year? 


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----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> Is the cocker trial in OH this year?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Not to be confusing... The Heart of Michigan trial is the same dates as your trial Michgundog and it is in Ohio. The Euclid trial is Sept 5,6,7 and that is near Camden, Mi. Add to that the Tilden Valley trial is in Wisconsin!!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Well that seals the deal. By a landslide of votes. It looks like Smoked Prime Rib. Natty, you will be missed...Karen how about another slice, we have plenty now!!



We'll be thinking of you Natty...Mr 3000! Prime rib will be fitting for our celebration.


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Is the cocker trial in OH this year?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Not to get any one dizzy but there is 5 separate Cockers trials in a 8 day period of time. 3 days in Michigan 2 days the following weekend in Ohio
some folks refer to it as the " Mid west nationals" Should have huge entry numbers for the diminutive breed.
also at the same time period Springer trials roll on as well T. Valley Southern, & Great lakes.
I would venture to say some 2000 pheasants will be released from mid Sept thru 1st weekend of Oct. just for Spaniel trialing. Good stuff!

Smoked Prime Rib will be epic, The PR is a culinary delight beyond description. I'll wear a clean shirt and use the my flash light find the beer cooler . Brian 704 what day are you taking your lovely daughter back to school that week end??? I have another Spanielers coming with me and we need to coordinate days schedule. He is new to the trial scene however is looking forward to seeing how we roll!! Need those days Friday Sat Sunday, might as well kidnap Natty and bring him with you when come from Harbor Springs


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Not to get any one dizzy but there is 5 separate Cockers trials in a 8 day period of time. 3 days in Michigan 2 days the following weekend in Ohio
> some folks refer to it as the " Mid west nationals" Should have huge entry numbers for the diminutive breed.
> also at the same time period Springer trials roll on as well T. Valley Southern, & Great lakes.
> I would venture to say some 2000 pheasants will be released from mid Sept thru 1st weekend of Oct. just for Spaniel trialing. Good stuff!
> 
> Smoked Prime Rib will be epic, The PR is a culinary delight beyond description. I'll wear a clean shirt and use the my flash light find the beer cooler . Brian 704 what day are you taking your lovely daughter back to school that week end??? I have another Spanielers coming with me and we need to coordinate days schedule. He is new to the trial scene however is looking forward to seeing how we roll!! Need those days Friday Sat Sunday, might as well kidnap Natty and bring him with you when come from Harbor Springs


Okay, I'll ask this way. The cocker trial they usually hold in Michigan in the fall(last year Andy's Acres previous years Highland)? I've heard Camden and the Kortad's(sp) place in OH? If it is in Camden and the same weekend as ours I may be able to swing by since it's close by our trial. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> Okay, I'll ask this way. The cocker trial they usually hold in Michigan in the fall(last year Andy's Acres previous years Highland)? I've heard Camden and the Kortad's(sp) place in OH? If it is in Camden and the same weekend as ours I may be able to swing by since it's close by our trial.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



The Camden/North Adams weekend is September 5,6,7. The heart of Michigan trial is September 27,28 at Bucyrus, OH. 

Here is the cocker calendar. http://www.fieldcockers.com/events2014.html


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> The Camden/North Adams weekend is September 5,6,7. The heart of Michigan trial is September 27,28 at Bucyrus, OH.
> 
> Here is the cocker calendar. http://www.fieldcockers.com/events2014.html


Thanks Steve. Are you going to both? That must be a first having 2 cocker trials so close usually you guys have to travel a lot more to your events. But I guess living in the UP your use to that. Good luck. 


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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Thanks Steve. Are you going to both? That must be a first having 2 cocker trials so close usually you guys have to travel a lot more to your events. But I guess living in the UP your use to that. Good luck.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



No, our plans are to hit the Euclid trial September 5,6,7 then Fox Valley in Wisconsin October 3,4,5. That will be enough this fall. Maybe next fall if Zac is ready to campaign hard we will run quite a few weekends. But Bucyrus has the Cocker Nationals next year so they won't have a fall cocker trial. Thanks for the good wishes.


----------



## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> Southern Michigan Springer Spaniel Training Club will be Sept 27 & 28. Please join us. YG if you want to come shag let me know.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Whew! I had to sit down and make sure that I put all the trial dates in my calendar. I would really like to hit the cocker trial, eat smoked prime rib, drink dark creamy brew, shag at the springer trial at Southern Michigan on 27 & 28. 

But... I'm afraid the Tildon Valley trial in Wisconsin is going to have to be my quota. I work for a school district and September is a very busy time for that business! I will have to try to make it down to meet you folks another time. 

Hie On!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Okay, I'll ask this way. The cocker trial they usually hold in Michigan in the fall(last year Andy's Acres previous years Highland)? I've heard Camden and the Kortad's(sp) place in OH? If it is in Camden and the same weekend as ours I may be able to swing by since it's close by our trial.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





dauber said:


> Not to be confusing... The Heart of Michigan trial is the same dates as your trial Michgundog and it is in Ohio.


 Your not confusing those are dates listed at akc.org events calendar.


----------



## michgundog

http://www.smsstc.org/fieldtrial/




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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> http://www.smsstc.org/fieldtrial/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good choice in judges!


----------



## gundogguy

Less than 60 days till the Pheasant opener! Looking forward to this seeing this picture repeated!


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Less than 60 days till the Pheasant opener! Looking forward to this seeing this picture repeated!


ROGER THAT, GDG!

We will also be looking to repeat a scene like this again this year in just a few weeks in the Dakota Territories!










NB


----------



## JAM

natty bumpo said:


> roger that, gdg!
> 
> We will also be looking to repeat a scene like this again this year in just a few weeks in the dakota territories!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nb


*like!!*


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## gundogguy

Get ready get set Hie -On!


----------



## dauber

Nice pictures!!

Just got a call from 704 and he and uncle George are coming by in the am for some cocker work. It will be good to see Rudy and Emmie.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Nice pictures!!
> 
> Just got a call from 704 and he and uncle George are coming by in the am for some cocker work. It will be good to see Rudy and Emmie.


What time are you getting together?


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> What time are you getting together?



9am.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> 9am.


Need a gun? &#128513;


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Need a gun? &#128513;



Sure.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Sure.


Cool. Will plan to join the crew then. Thanks!


----------



## yooperguy

yooperguy2003 said:


> Cool. Will plan to join the crew then. Thanks!


I'll bring your trap...


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Cool. Will plan to join the crew then. Thanks!



See ya in the am!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Nice pictures!!
> 
> Just got a call from 704 and he and uncle George are coming by in the am for some cocker work. It will be good to see Rudy and Emmie.





yooperguy2003 said:


> What time are you getting together?





dauber said:


> 9am.





yooperguy2003 said:


> Need a gun? &#128513;





dauber said:


> Sure.





yooperguy2003 said:


> Cool. Will plan to join the crew then. Thanks!





yooperguy2003 said:


> I'll bring your trap...


 
That's super We start at 9am as well in Three Rivers, about 9 dogs.
Dauber if you get a chance ask 704 if he is coming to the trial in Camden!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> That's super We start at 9am as well in Three Rivers, about 9 dogs.
> Dauber if you get a chance ask 704 if he is coming to the trial in Camden!



He is going to try to make a day, but doesn't know which one yet.


----------



## dauber

704 reports that he plans on making one day. 

Very nice session today! Much thanks the the B twins and uncle G. Tough cover, hot yooper temps, poor scenting especially in the hole, but all productive work for the dogs. Good to see young Rudy handle his first pheasant.


----------



## yooperguy

Rudy LOVES birds! Great drive and a soft mouth. 704 you are doing some nice work with him. Great job!

704 was working the camera for this training session.

Me and Belle










Belle coming up the hill


----------



## gundogguy

Ben and Mya having a work out.
Mya finds, flushes, is steady, called off the retriever and given an interruption, in the process, having to make the memory retrieve off a hunt dead through factors. The factor, ye old camera man gun standing in the path on the way to the memory mark, she handle it with ease!





 
Warm muggy cloudy conditions look like rain at any moment!


----------



## I'm with Brandy

We had a great weekend at the great lakes sport dog event. Ran the boys in intermediate and Brandy in Finished. Brandy had a really rough first run hard time finding birds. Was glad to find out we were sent to the wrong field and that there were no birds planted in that field LOL.

Once we got sent to the correct field she did great. Helps to be in the field where the birds have been planted.

The boys both had good runs. Xander was out on a retrieve when he flushed a second bird in the area of the retrieve and he was steady, I was able to tell him no bird as the second one flew away and got him to find and retrieve the first bird shot. Very proud of him. Both of the boys had a great day steady to flush shot and fall. Xander needs a little cleanup on the steadiness as soon as I start to speak he takes off for the retrieve. But for 13 months old they are doing great.

Xander and his crazy face for birds as he is busting through the cover.


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## yooperguy

IwB that's a great photo...


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Ben and Mya having a work out.
> Mya finds, flushes, is steady, called off the retriever and given an interruption, in the process, having to make the memory retrieve off a hunt dead through factors. The factor, ye old camera man gun standing in the path on the way to the memory mark, she handle it with ease!
> 
> YouTube
> 
> Warm muggy cloudy conditions look like rain at any moment!



Nice job Mya! Sure is nice seeing Mya continuing to get good work. She is looking good.


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## dauber

Sounds like a fun day Doug. Glad to hear Brandy and pups are doing well.


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## JAM

WOW! I was gone for a 3 day weekend and came home to see a bunch of great pictures with training stories to boot. Nice everyone!

Stormy finally got his MH title today. He broke on Saturday so we spent the day taking pictures of the "obedient" dogs.  Today he trapped a sucker bird, was steady to a shot from the Junior/Senior Field, and was steady to a nice flush and shot. Took a little longer on his retrieve than I expected but the cover was super thick and tall with a lot of sweet grass in the mix which gives off a lot of aroma. I'm sure that led to a lot of poor scenting.

He did fine on the hunt dead. The bird was on a mowed area beyond the thick field described above so the dog had to leave the thick cover and find the bird in the mowed area. It took him a couple of casts but found it.

The water blind went fairly well. He overran it at first but came back to pick it up and right back to me.

Then the marked retrieve. Nice and steady, right to the bird and back, but did NOT want to release that wet bird. He finally gave it up but we almost failed because of it. I was relieved that the judges decided to pass him.

So... It was NOT a slam-dunk but we passed. 

Will have to get a picture tomorrow.


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## dauber

Huge CONGRATS to Stormy and especially to you Jill!! That really says something about your training abilities to take totally different dogs in Bullet then Stormy to MH titles. The Daubers are very proud of you!!


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## NATTY BUMPO

*BIG CONGRATS* to Jill and Stormy for the MH title get. Tuff conditions on the weekend with all the heat, humidity and lush foliage. Great job by you both!

NB


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## gundogguy

Good for you Jill Way to hang in there! Press on regardless!


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## michgundog

Congrats JAM on your second MH titled dog! Great testimony to your training program. 


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## yooperguy

Way to go Jill and Stormy! Congrats!!


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## JAM

Thank you everyone for the kind words. Stormy and I really appreciate it. 

Bullet is so obedient training was pretty easy. Of course, at the time I didn't know that. Enter Stormy. OMG! He's the devil in a liver and white fur coat! So it's been a real struggle to get him to this point. I wish I had sent him to a professional trainer who had experience in dealing with high-power, "special needs" dogs when he was younger. He's pushing 6 now so I think we'll just live with what we've got. 

It's been quite a ride!

NORTHWOODS UPLAND BLIZZARD MH NA NAJ "STORMY"

WooHoo!


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## I'm with Brandy

Congrats on the Master Hunter title. Dogs get so amped up at hunt test you never know whats going to cause them to break or act bad. Now you have another champ to go bird hunting with this fall.


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## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Congrats on the Master Hunter title. Dogs get so amped up at hunt test you never know whats going to cause them to break or act bad. Now you have another champ to go bird hunting with this fall.


Thanks, Doug. And a hunting we will go!


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## Gavan

nfm


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## gundogguy

Harry taking a runner big, ark This bird ran so much I think it Prolly had "teeth"! I should spend more time with that bird planter







By and By this English Cocker is a Show UKC Grand Champ and Prolly will never be used as stud dog couple legs shy of a Senior HT title have no Idea if he will complete that program.


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## dauber

Nice job Harry and Rox. 

We had one of those runner pigeons a couple weeks back. He was trapped twice, but he sure made a couple of interesting tracks. Bob thought we should band him and give extra feed for the work he gave the dogs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## JAM

Thank you, Gavan.

GDG, That bird really gave that little cocker a good run. Nothing like a runner to bring out the prey drive in a dog.

Dauber, Two of my homers have returned. One came home from Rock for sure. The other, ???? Maybe from Engadine? I know the feeling, Bob. I get a little sad using my homers for training.


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## 704

JAM - Thought you would like to see an updated picture of the "Black Streak"
He has changed a lot since June.
Actually I just wanted to test my Photo upload instructions from Yooperguy....I think it works... Thanks Yooperguy!


----------



## JAM

704 said:


> JAM - Thought you would like to see an updated picture of the "Black Streak"
> He has changed a lot since June.
> Actually I just wanted to test my Photo upload instructions from Yooperguy....I think it works... Thanks Yooperguy!


Hi 704, The "Black Streak" is lookin' GOOD! Nice picture!


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## yooperguy

704 - you're welcome. "Black Streak" indeed! Great pic!


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## I'm with Brandy

The Brandywine Sue team. Can you pick out the mischievous dog?

Brandy is on the Left, Drake is in the Middle and Xander is on the right.










Same line up can you spot the trouble maker?










How about now do you see him now? :lol:


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> The Brandywine Sue team. Can you pick out the mischievous dog?
> 
> Brandy is on the Left, Drake is in the Middle and Xander is on the right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same line up can you spot the trouble maker?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about now do you see him now? :lol:


Hehe! XANDER! You stinker!


----------



## JAM

Here's Northwoods Upland Blizzard MH NA NAJ - "Stormy" wearing his new ribbons.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

JAM said:


> Here's Northwoods Upland Blizzard MH NA NAJ - "Stormy" wearing his new ribbons.


Congrats again I know how much work goes into getting those orange ribbons. Is the white one the title ribbon? I see those agility titles on his name sounds like hard work. I had a friend that asked me to come to obedience Brandy just can't lay still that long, not even going to attempt it with the boys. Forgot did you mention where you titled was it the gnarly field they use at Fox Valley? Okay zoomed in looks like Fox valley well you double earned that one, those runs under that grass makes that field tough to hunt.


----------



## dauber

704 said:


> JAM - Thought you would like to see an updated picture of the "Black Streak"
> He has changed a lot since June.
> Actually I just wanted to test my Photo upload instructions from Yooperguy....I think it works... Thanks Yooperguy!


So that is what he looks like All I've ever seen is a blur:lol:


----------



## phantom17

Does anyone know of any breeders of american cockers bred for hunting in michigan?


----------



## gundogguy

phantom17 said:


> Does anyone know of any breeders of american cockers bred for hunting in michigan?


Sorry I know a lots of AC show dog folks who call themselves breeders.
But none of them hunt their dogs. Tough order to fill. Quite honestly you should narrow your search to Field Bred English Cockers if you serious about Cockers with a hunting background, Nice little field trial Sept 567 down in Camden Mich Will be a number of resources there get info from!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

phantom17 said:


> Does anyone know of any breeders of american cockers bred for hunting in michigan?


We have fieldbred English Cockers. When I was researching changing breeds, I briefly looked into your question. I couldn't find such a breeder in Michigan or in any other of the 50 states. I think that species of Cocker breeder is extinct.

To my knowledge, an American Cocker has not qualified and run in the Cocker National Championship (open to both breeds) in the last 10 years, at least. Waaaaay back in the day, they did, and won too. Dauber may have more up to date info on this question.

GDG gives good advice. Get down to that Cocker trial and see what real bird dogs can do in the field.

NB


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Congrats again I know how much work goes into getting those orange ribbons. Is the white one the title ribbon? I see those agility titles on his name sounds like hard work. I had a friend that asked me to come to obedience Brandy just can't lay still that long, not even going to attempt it with the boys. Forgot did you mention where you titled was it the gnarly field they use at Fox Valley? Okay zoomed in looks like Fox valley well you double earned that one, those runs under that grass makes that field tough to hunt.


Thanks again, Doug. Yes. The white ribbon is the title ribbon. The field they used for the Master Test was the one that's usually used for the Junior/Senior Tests but the course was laid out at an angle heading at a 45 toward the tree line. (The large pond is beyond this field). This year, that field was much more gnarly (almost an understatement) than the usual Master Test field. 

I have never tried Obedience. It's a little too tame for Stormy.  The agility keeps the dog and me active in the winter. I have legs toward the next titles and might continue that this coming winter. It's a very long drive to compete in those so we'll see.


----------



## JAM

phantom17 said:


> Does anyone know of any breeders of american cockers bred for hunting in michigan?


Vickie Dahlk from Barnveld, Wisconsin has hunting American cockers. She has some AKC Master Hunters and has also participated in at least one field trial that I know of.

Here's the web address for their club: http://www.glacshe.com

This is American Cocker "Bibi" who earned her MHA (Master Hunter Advanced) title last Saturday.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

JAM said:


> Thanks again, Doug. Yes. The white ribbon is the title ribbon. The field they used for the Master Test was the one that's usually used for the Junior/Senior Tests but the course was laid out at an angle heading at a 45 toward the tree line. (The large pond is beyond this field). This year, that field was much more gnarly (almost an understatement) than the usual Master Test field.
> 
> I have never tried Obedience. It's a little too tame for Stormy.  The agility keeps the dog and me active in the winter. I have legs toward the next titles and might continue that this coming winter. It's a very long drive to compete in those so we'll see.


Tell me that drive to WI is 9 hours for me. But I like the clubs there and I also run retriever events over there in Eagle. I will be over there next spring to run UKC upland with the crew.


----------



## JAM

I'm with Brandy said:


> Tell me that drive to WI is 9 hours for me. But I like the clubs there and I also run retriever events over there in Eagle. I will be over there next spring to run UKC upland with the crew.


I agree. Wisconsin has great clubs and lots of them. I wish Michigan had as many opportunities as they do.

Another thing Wisconsin has is a lot of State owned wildlife areas where clubs can hold their events for very little $$. They also don't have to have any "special" licenses for their gunners during these events. All they have to do is sign up to use a particular area, pay the fee and voila! They're all set.

We tried to find land in the U.P. to hold our field trial this year and ended up in Wisconsin. Our motels, restaurants, etc. could have benefited from this but since there's no place to go... UGH!


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> I agree. Wisconsin has great clubs and lots of them. I wish Michigan had as many opportunities as they do.
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing Wisconsin has is a lot of State owned wildlife areas where clubs can hold their events for very little $$. They also don't have to have any "special" licenses for their gunners during these events. All they have to do is sign up to use a particular area, pay the fee and voila! They're all set.
> 
> 
> 
> We tried to find land in the U.P. to hold our field trial this year and ended up in Wisconsin. Our motels, restaurants, etc. could have benefited from this but since there's no place to go... UGH!



It wouldn't be a problem if we had Michigan gunners or a shooting preserve that would let us hold the trial. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Hey Hal,

I have a lot of respect for you and your opinion when it comes to Springers. And maybe I have a jaded view of field trials because of my experiences. I guess in a perfect world you could have the breed police and only people with field trial titled dogs could breed them but that is not the case. And even if it was you could still have poor breedings.

I don't know how many people use the MH title as proof of breeding standard other than maybe the bench breeders.

What about the stud dog owners that have field trial champ studs and then stud them out to bitches that don't have titles. Do you think that practice should be stopped? Thats going to effect the bottom line for many breeders.

Don't forget the large number of backyard breeders that don't do field trials or hunt test. They often times mix bench and field dogs for their litters. 
I have heard it suggested that those pups should not be seen as pure bred dogs by AKC. How do you feel about that?

I think it would be great if the hunt test scores where made public then people could see why dogs failed hunt test. But I don't agree on a time frame or limit on how many test you can run. 

I think buyers need to do their home work before purchasing a dog. buyer beware.

I should say that this is continued from another post in the forums. Just didn't want to continue to high jack someones post.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> It wouldn't be a problem if we had Michigan gunners or a shooting preserve that would let us hold the trial.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Do you guys have hunting preserves in your area Jam?


----------



## Gavan

actually titled an American Cocker a few years back and I believe still runs Americans in field trials. I agree that they are rare and finding Americans with a strong hunting background is rare as well. Very small gene pool and not the way to go if you are looking for a hunter. An English cocker from proven field trial lines is the way to go if you want a cocker to hunt for you.

I prefer the bigger gene pool and in fact springer field trial breeding from long standing lines since the parents have both been successful as are the lines. I then like to get a pup from a second or third breeding so I can see the pups that have come before and see that they have developed well.

My dogs are a big investment in both time and money and I want the best odds for success I can get. Getting a pup from a backyard breeding or and obscure breed is a big crap shoot and not something I am interested in.


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Do you guys have hunting preserves in your area Jam?


That is the problem IWB, we don't have much for hunting preserves around there, the few that are, really are too small or they don't want to give up a prime weekend in October. To be honest I don't believe you can just go to any state land in Wisconsin and hold a field trial in October without having to get out of state lisc for the gunner either. Wisconsin does have maybe 3 dog training areas on state lands that do hold some events and permits can be obtained to cover out of state gunner. I don't think many of these places hold "field trials" during the hunting season though, but hunt tests during the summer are quite common. 



Gavan said:


> actually titled an American Cocker a few years back and I believe still runs Americans in field trials. I agree that they are rare and finding Americans with a strong hunting background is rare as well. Very small gene pool and not the way to go if you are looking for a hunter. An English cocker from proven field trial lines is the way to go if you want a cocker to hunt for you.
> 
> I prefer the bigger gene pool and in fact springer field trial breeding from long standing lines since the parents have both been successful as are the lines. I then like to get a pup from a second or third breeding so I can see the pups that have come before and see that they have developed well.
> 
> My dogs are a big investment in both time and money and I want the best odds for success I can get. Getting a pup from a backyard breeding or and obscure breed is a big crap shoot and not something I am interested in.


 It comes down to doing the research. Yes Trish Jackson's Pride dog was a FC and did run in some nationals. To the poster who is interested in ACS's do your due diligence and I would want to visit the breeder in person and see the parents work to make certain this is the style of field dog you are looking for and how they went about training to achieve those levels.


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## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> That is the problem IWB, we don't have much for hunting preserves around there, the few that are, really are too small or they don't want to give up a prime weekend in October. To be honest I don't believe you can just go to any state land in Wisconsin and hold a field trial in October without having to get out of state lisc for the gunner either. Wisconsin does have maybe 3 dog training areas on state lands that do hold some events and permits can be obtained to cover out of state gunner. I don't think many of these places hold "field trials" during the hunting season though, but hunt tests during the summer are quite common.
> 
> 
> 
> It comes down to doing the research. Yes Trish Jackson's Pride dog was a FC and did run in some nationals. To the poster who is interested in ACS's do your due diligence and I would want to visit the breeder in person and see the parents work to make certain this is the style of field dog you are looking for and how they went about training to achieve those levels.


Interesting you mentioned the out of state folks I would think with the changes in the preserve laws gunners from other states would now be allowed to shoot and not have to purchase a license at events held on preserver grounds or am I wrong? I wonder how that effects private land permitted as dog training areas?


----------



## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> Interesting you mentioned the out of state folks I would think with the changes in the preserve laws gunners from other states would now be allowed to shoot and not have to purchase a license at events held on preserver grounds or am I wrong? I wonder how that effects private land permitted as dog training areas?



You got it! Shooting preserves would work great since no cost to our club for the 10 out of state gunners, but everywhere else requires them lisc and even at the 7 day lisc fee of 85 would put us quite a bit over budget. It wouldn't cost us too much for a state land use permit, but finding 60-80 acres of correct cover to satisfy the ESS people and during the short pheasant season of the UP would be almost impossible. The one place on state land we found happens to be a Pheasants Forever project, would not go over well taking it over for one of the 3 weekends pheasant season is open. 


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## JAM

I see that Northeast Wisconsin Spaniel Club is going to hold their FT Sept. 27&28 at the Besadny Fish and Wildlife Area, Hill Rd., Kewaukee, WI. That will be nice and close for me (as far as FT's go  ). I believe that's a state-owned area.


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## dauber

JAM said:


> I see that Northeast Wisconsin Spaniel Club is going to hold their FT Sept. 27&28 at the Besadny Fish and Wildlife Area, Hill Rd., Kewaukee, WI. That will be nice and close for me (as far as FT's go  ). I believe that's a state-owned area.



Yes it is a Wi state owned area. Similar areas exist in Michigan, lower Michigan where the state owns more open lands ie Highland, Holly, Ionia, Sharonville, and Lapeer. The UP state owned lands are largely forested except for some poor sandy areas that don't have thick enough cover. 


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Yes it is a Wi state owned area. Similar areas exist in Michigan, lower Michigan where the state owns more open lands ie Highland, Holly, Ionia, Sharonville, and Lapeer. The UP state owned lands are largely forested except for some poor sandy areas that don't have thick enough cover.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Oh. Thanks for the info, Dauber. I had only heard of Highland - not the others you mentioned. It sure would be nice if we could get an area in the U.P. that would work for dog training. I suppose if the U.P. isn't good for ag. that's not going to happen.


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## michgundog

JAM said:


> Oh. Thanks for the info, Dauber. I had only heard of Highland - not the others you mentioned. It sure would be nice if we could get an area in the U.P. that would work for dog training. I suppose if the U.P. isn't good for ag. that's not going to happen.


Highland just has to designate a place for flushing dogs and it will be perfect. I just did another work day out there a few weeks back the size of course 2 is unreal. 


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I see that Northeast Wisconsin Spaniel Club is going to hold their FT Sept. 27&28t the Besadn ay Fish and Wildlife Area, Hill Rd., Kewaukee, WI. That will be nice and close for me (as far as FT's go  ). I believe that's a state-owned area.


 
Jam is Steel or Non-toxic shot required at Besadn ay Fish and Wildlife area?


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Jam is Steel or Non-toxic shot required at Besadn ay Fish and Wildlife area?


GDG, Good question. I have no idea. I'll try to find out from someone on their committee.


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## michgundog

JAM said:


> Vickie Dahlk from Barnveld, Wisconsin has hunting American cockers. She has some AKC Master Hunters and has also participated in at least one field trial that I know of.
> 
> Here's the web address for their club: http://www.glacshe.com
> 
> This is American Cocker "Bibi" who earned her MHA (Master Hunter Advanced) title last Saturday.


Great job Frank Martinez and Bibi very impressive! 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Great job Frank Martinez and Bibi very impressive!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


At last count there were (5) Five titled American Cockers spread across the country. There could have been 6 but the owner quit and went back to the breed ring(dog shows) training testing just to hard on the dogs coat!!


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## JAM

michgundog said:


> Great job Frank Martinez and Bibi very impressive!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 Congrats Frank & Bibi. She's the 1st Am. Cocker bitch to earn the MHA title - 2nd Am. Cocker.

Someone asked Frank if Bibi was a show cocker and he said no. He went on to point out her faults for the show ring (which means 0 to me.  )

I agree that there aren't many Am. Cockers to choose from if you're looking for a hunter but on the flip side, if what you REALLY want is an Am. Cocker for a pet that can hunt a few days every year, it might just be a great fit.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Congrats Frank & Bibi. She's the 1st Am. Cocker bitch to earn the MHA title - 2nd Am. Cocker.
> 
> Someone asked Frank if Bibi was a show cocker and he said no. He went on to point out her faults for the show ring (which means 0 to me.  )
> 
> I agree that there aren't many Am. Cockers to choose from if you're looking for a hunter but on the flip side, if what you REALLY want is an Am. Cocker for a pet that can hunt a few days every year, it might just be a great fit.


Thanks for the "vetting" on the breed Jam the number that I had was covering all classes of test levels.


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## dauber

Nice morning in the EUP. Zac handled this woodcock very well. 











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## yooperguy

Good Boy Zac... 


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Nice morning in the EUP. Zac handled this woodcock very well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Atta Boy, Zac! Good boy! Beautiful picture to match.


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## michgundog

Quick recap of the SMSSTC 61st annual field trial

Open:

Mark Hairfield 1st, Mark Hairfield 2nd, Mike Wallace 3rd, Russ Smith 4th

Amateur:

Justin Smith 1st, Al Ringenberg 2nd, Paul Jones 3rd, Mike Pollack 4th(new AFC Blackbier's Rittenhouse Rye). 

Conditions were tough both days I was very pleased to get through the first and second today.


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## dauber

Congrats to all the placers and congrats Mike in getting thru 2.


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## JAM

michgundog said:


> Quick recap of the SMSSTC 61st annual field trial
> 
> Open:
> 
> Mark Hairfield 1st, Mark Hairfield 2nd, Mike Wallace 3rd, Russ Smith 4th
> 
> Amateur:
> 
> Justin Smith 1st, Al Ringenberg 2nd, Paul Jones 3rd, Mike Pollack 4th(new AFC Blackbier's Rittenhouse Rye).
> 
> Conditions were tough both days I was very pleased to get through the first and second today.


Congrats to everyone! Yeah... getting through the second is an accomplishment for me, too. Especially in tough conditions.


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## JAM

I've been super busy so haven't had a chance to write lately. I've been trying to keep up on the posts here though as I always enjoy the updates. 

So... Tilden Valley ESS Club's Placements:

OPEN
1st - "Jeter" - Handler: Jason Givens
2nd - "Hazel" - Handler: Lea Ames
3rd - "Stitch" - Handler: Pete Zuleger
4th - "Sail" - Handler: Dean Reinke

AMATEUR
1st - "Lucy" - Handler: Brian Sonier
2nd - "Rollie" - Handler: Roger Wilson
3rd - "Stella" - Handler: Nate Garner
4th - "Junior" - Handler: Joe Barnett

PUPPY
1st - "Jade" - Handler: Mary Stibbe
2nd - "Cisco" - Handler: Todd Stelzer
3rd - "Clover" - Handler: Mary Stibbe
4th - "Surge" - Handler: Mike Petrich

Interestingly... All the puppies were sired by FC Lighthouse Finn MH - Jade & Clover from the same litter - different dams for the other 2.


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## JAM

I ran NWSC's trial this past weekend. We managed to make it through 2 series but not to the 3rd. The conditions were very hot and dry with quite a few passed birds and a few failed retrieves and retrieves that had to be handled.

One dog collapsed from the heat and had to be treated with an instant run to the dunk tank followed by a saline solution injection under the skin and glucose. Very scary!

I don't have all the placements but know the winners of the AA & Puppy Stakes.

Open 1st was "Belle" - Owner/Handler: John Hall
Amateur 1st was "Tiller" - Owner/Handler: Barb Boettcher
Puppy 1st was "Keaghan" - Owner/Handler: Jim O'Keefe

Congrats to all!


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## dauber

Thanks JAM! Congrats to all placers and to you and Chinook JAM. 

Now Fox Valley this week and weekend and a tourney hunt for you this weekend. Sure is the busy time of year. 


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I ran NWSC's trial this past weekend. We managed to make it through 2 series but not to the 3rd. The conditions were very hot and dry with quite a few passed birds and a few failed retrieves and retrieves that had to be handled.
> 
> One dog collapsed from the heat and had to be treated with an instant run to the dunk tank followed by a saline solution injection under the skin and glucose. Very scary!
> 
> I don't have all the placements but know the winners of the AA & Puppy Stakes.
> 
> Open 1st was "Belle" - Owner/Handler: John Hall
> Amateur 1st was "Tiller" - Owner/Handler: Barb Boettcher
> Puppy 1st was "Keaghan" - Owner/Handler: Jim O'Keefe
> 
> Congrats to all!


Thanks for the report and conditions update, about the time cool fall weather gets here it will be winter!!
Heat across the Midwest has been producing some ugly situations that for sure!


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Thanks for the report and conditions update, about the time cool fall weather gets here it will be winter!!
> Heat across the Midwest has been producing some ugly situations that for sure!


Surprisingly, it's cold and rainy today. I would gladly have done without the rain but that cool weather would have been very welcome this past weekend.

Off to Fox Valley along with the Daubers but only for Wednesday and Thursday for me. Those are the days of the springer trials. Friday through Sunday will host the cocker trials. I'd love to stay for all 5 days but have obligations that prevent me from doing that. 

Going to give the Tournament Hunter thing a try at Clay Ridge Game Farm in Levering on Sunday. I have never driven my camper over the bridge so that'll be an experience - hopefully a good one.


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## yooperguy

JAM said:


> Surprisingly, it's cold and rainy today. I would gladly have done without the rain but that cool weather would have been very welcome this past weekend.
> 
> Off to Fox Valley along with the Daubers but only for Wednesday and Thursday for me. Those are the days of the springer trials. Friday through Sunday will host the cocker trials. I'd love to stay for all 5 days but have obligations that prevent me from doing that.
> 
> Going to give the Tournament Hunter thing a try at Clay Ridge Game Farm in Levering on Sunday. I have never driven my camper over the bridge so that'll be an experience - hopefully a good one.


Good luck at Clay Ridge JAM. Maybe we'll see you there!


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## dauber

JAM said:


> I have never driven my camper over the bridge so that'll be an experience - hopefully a good one.



Just look straight ahead and drive straight ahead. 

I'll see you Wednesday JAM. 



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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Surprisingly, it's cold and rainy today. I would gladly have done without the rain but that cool weather would have been very welcome this past weekend.
> 
> Off to Fox Valley along with the Daubers but only for Wednesday and Thursday for me. Those are the days of the springer trials. Friday through Sunday will host the cocker trials. I'd love to stay for all 5 days but have obligations that prevent me from doing that.
> 
> Going to give the Tournament Hunter thing a try at Clay Ridge Game Farm in Levering on Sunday. I have never driven my camper over the bridge so that'll be an experience - hopefully a good one.


Cold and rainy here today, Love it! Good luck on your expedition and tourney. Have Fun!
Are we a white knuckle driver?


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Cold and rainy here today, Love it! Good luck on your expedition and tourney. Have Fun!
> Are we a white knuckle driver?


No. I drove trucks as part of my occupation. That also gave me a lot of experience with big trucks and wind. I know sometimes they close the bridge due to wind so I'm hoping it'll be a calm day. 



yooperguy2003 said:


> Good luck at Clay Ridge JAM. Maybe we'll see you there!


That would be great! Maybe you can give me some shooting tips. 

Thanks, Dauber. I'll do that.


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Congrats to all the placers and congrats Mike in getting thru 2.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Thanks Steve. Good luck in your up coming events. Hopefully the cooler weather will last.


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## dauber

Congrats to JAM with a 4th place at Fox Valley today in the Amateur











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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Congrats to JAM with a 4th place at Fox Valley today in the Amateur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


 
You go girl! Nice job!!


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## gundogguy

Spaniel AA field trial placements coming along nicely for MS forum members!


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## michgundog

Good job JAM!


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Great bunch of dogs! Hope the run continues.
> 
> Our trialing is over for this year with eyes towards next year. Zac made it thru 2 one day with a monster pin point mark in the second. But being first dog for the day on grounds that were used 2 days before left for s wild and Willy first run. He handled it better than his handler. His Sunday run was quick with a passed bird. Smoke had cotton in his ears and found birds all over the place so he had a couple of short days.
> 
> Now on to hunting for the next few weeks. Good luck to everyone!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Trialling. Not for the weak of heart. 

Team Dauber made some great trialling memories this year which just proves how well trained and talented they are. Hunting is what it's really all about. Get those well-trained dogs out and have a great time living the life for which they were bred.

Hope to meet up with you for some grouse again this year.

Good luck hunting!


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## METRO1

Amen.Get out and do what they were bred to do.HUNT.


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## JAM

METRO1 said:


> Amen.Get out and do what they were bred to do.HUNT.


Nice, METRO1! YUM! Even though I already ate that makes me hungry.


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## dauber

METRO1 said:


> Amen.Get out and do what they were bred to do.HUNT.



Very nice Metro!! That's one of my favorite ways to eat em too!

Just got to "spaniel camp" this afternoon! Must be at least 10 Springers and 4 Cockers in camp this year. The crew has a good start on a meal today!

Hie on!


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## METRO1

They are so good. I can t wait to get back up.Just went to gander mountain and bought more boxes of 28guage and 410 for marsha s new 0/U.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Very nice Metro!! That's one of my favorite ways to eat em too!
> 
> Just got to "spaniel camp" this afternoon! Must be at least 10 Springers and 4 Cockers in camp this year. The crew has a good start on a meal today!
> 
> Hie on!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Wow! That is a big conclave. Take a big Hie-on!!!!


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## dauber

Spaniel camp put up 54 birds today and shot enough for supper! Here are a few of the highlights. 

http://cdn.imageserver.c-m-g.us/michigan-sportsman_com/
33/461006/47346-1412724732.jpg




















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## dauber

Oops here is the other picture of a NCC qualifier. 











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## JAM

WOW! Nice job, Grouse Camp 2014!


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## gundogguy

Super Dauber almost unfair putting those well trained dogs in those covers! But I'm happy you did!! More pics coming??


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## yooperguy

JAM said:


> WOW! Nice job, Grouse Camp 2014!


 Looks and sounds like the place to be!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Super Dauber almost unfair putting those well trained dogs in those covers! But I'm happy you did!! More pics coming??



Ok

Here were a couple productive walks in NLP today. 



















High winds today are tough on old guys who can't hear



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## michgundog

Thanks for sharing the pics Dauber, nice to see Chris and her spaniels on this thread. 


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Ok
> 
> Here were a couple productive walks in NLP today.
> 
> 
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> 
> High winds today are tough on old guys who can't hear
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Nice job and pics, Dauber! Looks like hunters and dogs are having a great time. Good for all of you!


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## dauber

Even 11 year old Dante is having a blast at Spaniel camp! 











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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Even 11 year old Dante is having a blast at Spaniel camp!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Nice! Dante is feeling better??


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## dauber

Back home for a couple days before heading to the next grouse camp. It was a great morning out with fantastic Mrs dauber and the dogs. She whiffed on her first grouse then took no prisoners. 





























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## michgundog

I whiffed on an easy shot today! Ended up having a couple successful hunts, great weekend to be outdoors.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Back home for a couple days before heading to the next grouse camp. It was a great morning out with fantastic Mrs dauber and the dogs. She whiffed on her first grouse then took no prisoners.
> 
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> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app





michgundog said:


> I whiffed on an easy shot today! Ended up having a couple successful hunts, great weekend to be outdoors.


You guys are living large! Nice pic's of your days activities.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Nice Work, Steve and Mike.

Mid October is GO Time. A hunting friend drove into TC from Va yesterday for a bird hunt. Unfortunately he hit a rainy week. But we'll meet for b'fast tomorrow and I can show him some spots and mark up his maps for good grouse areas farther from TC. 

Our little town is jammed with leaf peepers this weekend.

NB


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## dauber

Good luck Rod and don't get toooo wet!


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## JAM

Nice job, M-S Peeps - especially Team Mrs. Dauber! Great pics as usual, too. 

I haven't had a chance to get out yet. Maybe a quick trip to Rock this PM is in order before the monsoons arrive.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Nice job, M-S Peeps - especially Team Mrs. Dauber! Great pics as usual, too.
> 
> I haven't had a chance to get out yet. Maybe a quick trip to Rock this PM is in order before the monsoons arrive.


Has it quit raining yet?:fish2:


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Has it quit raining yet?:fish2:


NNNOOOOOOOO!!

Just got off the phone with my partner and we are postponing a gunning trip planned for today. :rant: The road into our best spot will be flooded out this morning for sure. Major bummer.


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## yooperguy

It's those monsoons that JAM made mention of... :sad:


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## JAM

Non-stop rain here, too. UGH!


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## NATTY BUMPO

Its been a "good news" and "bad news" kinda week hereabouts. Some places have gotten 5-8' of the wet stuff in a week. Basements, crawl spaces, wells and septic systems flooded and ruined. Thankfully, the Bumpo Ranch remained high and dry.

Had to cancel a long planned date with a new gunning partner due to flooded roads where we wanted to go and an all day rain. Everybody close to stir crazy up here. So yesterday morning it let up abit, just drizzly, and got the dogs down at a spot close to town. 

Moved a few birds, both big and little, and finally got a clean look. Here is Scouty with his bird.










Interestingly, the purple staining on the breast feathers on this young of the year male, wasn't blood, but grape juice. That crop was packed full of wild grapes and its juice. The woods are full of fruit of all kinds this fall. 

NB


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## yooperguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Its been a "good news" and "bad news" kinda week hereabouts. Some places have gotten 5-8' of the wet stuff in a week. Basements, crawl spaces, wells and septic systems flooded and ruined. Thankfully, the Bumpo Ranch remained high and dry.
> 
> Had to cancel a long planned date with a new gunning partner due to flooded roads where we wanted to go and an all day rain. Everybody close to stir crazy up here. So yesterday morning it let up abit, just drizzly, and got the dogs down at a spot close to town.
> 
> Moved a few birds, both big and little, and finally got a clean look. Here is Scouty with his bird.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, the purple staining on the breast feathers on this young of the year male, wasn't blood, but grape juice. That crop was packed full of wild grapes and its juice. The woods are full of fruit of all kinds this fall.
> 
> NB


Good show NB!


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## michgundog

Good job NB. Anyone going out Monday for the phz opener? Looks like it will be raining down this way &#128513;


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## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> Good job NB. Anyone going out Monday for the phz opener? Looks like it will be raining down this way &#128513;
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


Thanks, Mike.

I'm keeping my rooster powder dry, literally. Headed for South Dakota Nov 5. Fingers crossed for some decent weather while out there.


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## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Its been a "good news" and "bad news" kinda week hereabouts. Some places have gotten 5-8' of the wet stuff in a week. Basements, crawl spaces, wells and septic systems flooded and ruined. Thankfully, the Bumpo Ranch remained high and dry.
> 
> Had to cancel a long planned date with a new gunning partner due to flooded roads where we wanted to go and an all day rain. Everybody close to stir crazy up here. So yesterday morning it let up abit, just drizzly, and got the dogs down at a spot close to town.
> 
> Moved a few birds, both big and little, and finally got a clean look. Here is Scouty with his bird.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, the purple staining on the breast feathers on this young of the year male, wasn't blood, but grape juice. That crop was packed full of wild grapes and its juice. The woods are full of fruit of all kinds this fall.
> 
> NB


Nice job, NB & Scout! So glad you were able to get a chance to hunt. Too bad about having to cancel your plans. We've had a lot of rain, too, but nothing like what you're describing. Hope it'll dry up soon.

Good luck in SD, NB!


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## JAM

I had a visitor this morning. It must have known it's too windy and cold to hunt.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I had a visitor this morning. It must have known it's too windy and cold to hunt.


Sweeet the U.P. now allows baiting for grouse, eh! , way to Go! A good mix of corn, thistle and oats goes a long way in attracting those wily grouse.
Sure save on boot leather!:evil::evil::evil::evil:

Way to go NB and Scouty!


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Sweeet the U.P. now allows baiting for grouse, eh! , way to Go! A good mix of corn, thistle and oats goes a long way in attracting those wily grouse.
> Sure save on boot leather!:evil::evil::evil::evil:
> 
> Way to go NB and Scouty!


Hehe! Funny though... We were trying to figure out what it was eating. I have some apple trees near the area where the bird was feeding. It might have been eating pieces of apple or its seeds left by the deer.


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## I'm with Brandy

Looking for some info I have someone looking for a 1-2 year old trained or started ESS. The dog will be used for upland hunting primarily on grouse. This person has had ESS's in the past he has a cocker now.


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## I'm with Brandy

JAM said:


> Non-stop rain here, too. UGH!


I managed to get out with a friend on Thursday but the rest of the week I took off the wrong days and ended not hunting. Additionally been fighting off a cold for the past week (not Ebola.


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## dauber

Good job Natty and Scouty! 

Good luck in SD too. 

We are hanging around home territory for the next week then off to work at the NCC in PA. Out Dakota trip will be after the NCC. 


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## michgundog

dauber said:


> Good job Natty and Scouty!
> 
> Good luck in SD too.
> 
> We are hanging around home territory for the next week then off to work at the NCC in PA. Out Dakota trip will be after the NCC.
> 
> Here's a bunch of my spaniels from today. Getting ready for Monday. My Finn is heading out to Nodak to do some guiding next week.
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app













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## dauber

michgundog said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire



Good looking pack there Mike. Hope they get some work with phez season on its way!


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## JAM

michgundog said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


Great pic! HUP!


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## michgundog

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## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


PURE MICHIGAN ! 

Good Job Mike and pup. Looks like a soggy morning.

NB


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## dauber

Good job Mike and Finn! Way to kick off the season. 


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## michgundog

Thanks guys. Yes it was very wet in the morning but the rain held off. Me and a buddy ended up getting our limits. 













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## JAM

WOW! Nice job, MGD & Finn!


----------



## yooperguy

JAM said:


> WOW! Nice job, MGD & Finn!


----------



## roadrunner

Our SD trip is scheduled just before my latest female ESP turns 6 months old. She's a charger and very birdy at 26 lbs. I would appreciate opinions on taking her with us...

Bob


----------



## JAM

roadrunner said:


> Our SD trip is scheduled just before my latest female ESP turns 6 months old. She's a charger and very birdy at 26 lbs. I would appreciate opinions on taking her with us...
> 
> Bob


Does ESP = English Springer Spaniel? If so, it's "ESS". 

I am far from an expert but had 2 separate bad experiences with two of my springers. 

When one was very young (like 4 months old) he hadn't seen a live bird yet so I decided it was time for him to have a clipped wing pigeon. VERY BAD IDEA! That bird flapped in his face and really scared him. He started lunging and barking at that bird and proceeded to make one last dash at the bird and killed it. I had one heck of a time getting him to handle birds correctly after that. He's still not very gentle with them.

The other thing that happened to my oldest dog is he had not been introduced to pheasants. We took him on a game farm pheasant hunt thinking it would be fun for him and me. He managed to corner a rooster which beat the heck out of him. To this day he points his birds and is overly cautious around them - any birds. So... That one-time experience ruined his flush for life.

So... I think you're taking a big risk putting a 6 month old dog on pheasants.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> Does ESP = English Springer Spaniel? If so, it's "ESS".
> 
> I am far from an expert but had 2 separate bad experiences with two of my springers.
> 
> When one was very young (like 4 months old) he hadn't seen a live bird yet so I decided it was time for him to have a clipped wing pigeon. VERY BAD IDEA! That bird flapped in his face and really scared him. He started lunging and barking at that bird and proceeded to make one last dash at the bird and killed it. I had one heck of a time getting him to handle birds correctly after that. He's still not very gentle with them.
> 
> The other thing that happened to my oldest dog is he had not been introduced to pheasants. We took him on a game farm pheasant hunt thinking it would be fun for him and me. He managed to corner a rooster which beat the heck out of him. To this day he points his birds and is overly cautious around them - any birds. So... That one-time experience ruined his flush for life.
> 
> So... I think you're taking a big risk putting a 6 month old dog on pheasants.


1+

Jam speaks with real world experience. In addition to her points above:

1. Is your puppy *thoroughly * gun proofed?? I mean like bomb proofed because he may have 3-4 12 GA automatics open up right over his head when a flurry of roosters gets up at the end of a field??

2. Has he had some solid field experience here in Michigan? Does he face mean cover bravely as in thick CRP, cattail swamps, cut corn field, briars and brambles?

3. Does he get car sick? Its a very long ride to the Dakotas.

4. A winged and thoroughly PO'ed rooster can bear the tar out of a puppy before you know it. Not Good. :yikes:

All that said, one of my field Cockers was nine months old and about the same weight when he made his first trip to South Dakota. He handled everything on that trip, including two feet of snow, like a champ and loved every minute of it. But that dog has an exceptional prey drive.

Good Luck on your trip.

NB


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> 1+
> 
> 
> 
> Jam speaks with real world experience. In addition to her points above:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Is your puppy *thoroughly * gun proofed?? I mean like bomb proofed because he may have 3-4 12 GA automatics open up right over his head when a flurry of roosters gets up at the end of a field??
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Has he had some solid field experience here in Michigan? Does he face mean cover bravely as in thick CRP, cattail swamps, cut corn field, briars and brambles?
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Does he get car sick? Its a very long ride to the Dakotas.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. A winged and thoroughly PO'ed rooster can bear the tar out of a puppy before you know it. Not Good. :yikes:
> 
> 
> 
> All that said, one of my field Cockers was nine months old and about the same weight when he made his first trip to South Dakota. He handled everything on that trip, including two feet of snow, like a champ and loved every minute of it. But that dog has an exceptional prey drive.
> 
> 
> 
> Good Luck on your trip.
> 
> 
> 
> NB



+2

I took my 14 month old ecs last year who was throughly gun proffed but only shot 2 well handled birds on day 9 of a 14 day hunt. Otherwise we ran him without guns and made sure he was steady and could be called off fly-a-ways. 


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## michgundog

I wouldn't take a dog out there until it had a ton of yard training and was compliant in the yard and the field. Also, some collar conditioning to at the very least the vibrate function if the dog blows you off or can't hear because of wind and standing corn. 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> I wouldn't take a dog out there until it had a ton of yard training and was compliant in the yard and the field. Also, some collar conditioning to at the very least the vibrate function if the dog blows you off or can't hear because of wind and standing corn.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


First of all Mike Congates on your pheasant hunting success, wet days have always been good to me as well. Your success is based on preparing your guys for the battle they are up against



roadrunner said:


> Our SD trip is scheduled just before my latest female ESP turns 6 months old. She's a charger and very birdy at 26 lbs. I would appreciate opinions on taking her with us...
> 
> 
> Bob


 
First of all age,sex and the size of dog does not mean a hill beans. Pheasant hunting any where in the USA is like going to war your dog needs some preparation and introduction training to handle. The short answer would be to take your dog but do not let any body shoot over or near her. I' m really being liberal here. if that is confusing I could elaborate on why I think this way!
In another thread here on the board I stated when selling pups to companion dog folks they can only buy a started or finished dog. Started only or better, that is a dog that is retrieving properly, gun proofed and responsive to a come-in and turn whistle.


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## NATTY BUMPO

And one more thing........... GDG mentioned it but it bears repeating.

You will *absolutely* have to have your pup under tight control at all times. Nothing ruins a Dakotas pheasant hunt quicker than when somebody's dog runs wild, out of control, down a nice field and blows every bird out in that time zone 5 miles away. When ONE goes, they ALL go! I've seen it happen and just glad it wasn't my dog. Its like when a skunk shows up at the Sunday picnic. :rant:


----------



## roadrunner

Thanks, guys! I'm going to try her on some local birds with her mother. I've taken 7 and 8 month springers to IA with good to great results. The 5 month old now busts cover and minds well. Very birdy with classic nose. I'm just thinking 6 months may be pushing it...


----------



## michgundog

Good luck, post lots of pics when you get back. 


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## gundogguy

roadrunner said:


> Thanks, guys! I'm going to try her on some local birds with her mother. I've taken 7 and 8 month springers to IA with good to great results. The 5 month old now busts cover and minds well. Very birdy with classic nose. I'm just thinking 6 months may be pushing it...


 
Well I 'll leave that one alone. Best of luck! Hope all works you and pup.


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## dauber

roadrunner said:


> Thanks, guys! I'm going to try her on some local birds with her mother. I've taken 7 and 8 month springers to IA with good to great results. The 5 month old now busts cover and minds well. Very birdy with classic nose. I'm just thinking 6 months may be pushing it...



Good luck. 

To clarify some on my above response; my 14 month old at that time had somewhere around 50 birds shot over him in training along with at least that many fly-a-ways. My wife and I took 1/2 hour or so each day just for training him on wild birds and yes we had roosters flush on many of the days. The one day we shot over him only my wife shot while I handled him with instruction for wife to not shoot if he broke or wasn't listening to commands. This approach certainly has paid off with him working well this hunting season and under very good control. 


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## gundogguy

ESS Parent Club Trial 10/24-10/25
Our little virginal 27 month old spaniel (Zeta) wiggled her way through a crowd of artful dodgers , scaly wags and thieves to garner a Fourth Place finish at this prestigious annual affair in New York. This particular trial also demands a water test which provides some drama for all those dogs that have made it through 3 series, fail the water and your out of the trial. 39 dogs in attendance, the crème of the East coast society
This is her 2nd placement this month and 3rd over all for the Autumn schedule.
Hopefully photo's soon!

http://gundogforum.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13881


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## michgundog

Way to go zeta!! 


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## dauber

Good job Zeta!! Keep er rolling. 

We'll be heading to Tyrone for NCC next week. Not running this year but will get some reports in if we can. 


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta having a ball in Kansas!



Just get the next bird and make the judges earn their keep! Keep on having fun Zeta. 


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## NATTY BUMPO

Two years ago, my son CW, his BFF Marshall D. and I hunted on a 4th generation family farm in the middle of South Dakota's best pheasant country. We had such a good time hunting and visiting with the folks there, we vowed to make a return trip ASAP. But this time with reinforcements to deal with the rascally roosters. We made that happen this year the second week of November.

So CW and I drove out from Novi with TPR aboard. CW invited a business associate Dom, who flew up from Tampa. And Marshall, who is a Michigan native but lives in the Sonoma Valley, invited three of his CA hunting/fishing buddies to join the party. They flew from SF. I brought some Michigan goodies along for camp; three pounds of venison breakfast sausage, grouse camp soup, and two tins of Mrs Bumpo's cookies, which were all gone by day 2. Not to be outdone, the Californians brought two + cases of excellent wines, cheeses, breads, and a host of other goodies. If anyone was hungry or thirsty while in that camp, it was their own fault!

A few pics on the trip out:

The obligatory atop at Cabela's in Mitchell.





















The West Coast guys were all hard core steelheaders and avid waterfowlers who had traveled widely in search of outdoor adventure. One of them has had hunting Cockers and Springers his whole life, we got along famously. Another of them was an absolutely first class cook and loved doing it. We just stayed out of his way, cleaned up and washed the dishes.
Our guide Erik, was one of the sons of the family patriarch and in charge of the hunting operation. He was primarily responsible for establishing and maintaining the outstanding wildlife habitat in concert with normal Midwest farming operations. He has a pack of Labs headed by 10 YO Tig and 3 YO Molly; both were first rate gun dogs. We lost very few birds with those two plus TPR on the case.










We hunted standing corn, of course, but also sloughs, CRP field, food plots, shelter belts and setaside areas around ponds. The cover and food available for the birds were responsible for the very healthy populations of wild pheasants we saw in the third week of the season. Many birds were killed hunting corn strips but also in the food plots, sorghum, CRP and around the ponds. The Labs and Cockers worked together well in those areas.

In the afternoon on Day 1. We had outstanding weather the first two days.










On one drive on Day 1, CW was a driver and I blocked. We each killed two birds and nobody missed a shot, so I took a picture of the event!










Day three brought a mix of rain, snow, sleet and wind. Birds were holed up and we had to go in after them.



















We had quite a feast on the evening of Day 3. Erik provided prime boneless ribeye steaks from an Angus- Charolois steer raised on the ranch. The CA crew whipped up some tasty snacks, twice baked potatoes, a fancy Napa salad and provided excellent wines all around. Those boys hunt hard and party hard. 










Unfortunately, after such a great evening, we had to get on the road a day early. A major and dangerous winter weather system was bearing down fast on the Dakotas. This was the storm which dumped 3-4 feet of snow across the upper Midwest including 'da UP. Dom left for Sioux Falls right after dinner; he had a noon flight. CW and I left at dawn the next day. It was snowing and blowing hard and drifting badly on the N-S roads which we traveled the 100 miles down to I90. 4WD all the way. When we got to the Interstate, the freezing rain started and dogged us all the way to Des Moines that night.

The California guys stayed and hunted the next day in that blizzard. They hunted a slough behind the Labs and limited in under an hour. Hard core is right.










The chemistry and comradery among this group of bird hunters from all over the country was amazing. We have vowed to do it again and with better weather next time!

NB


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## NATTY BUMPO

We exceeded the number of pics allowed in one post above. :rant: So these are for the ones who are into body count.

Here was the bag for the California boys in one pass through a slough in that blizzard. Hard core indeed.!



















NB


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> We have made MN on our return trip. The last 2 weeks was one of survival for team Dauber. Stayed put in one place this year due to weather but had good electric to keep the heat going in the camper. At least the camper was a warm place most days. We were there 13 days and hunted 12. 9 of the 12 days were either below 0 or windchills below 0 most of the day. We had 2 days of -30 windchills and 2 mornings of -16 actual temp that barely made it above 0. The second day we got about 8" of snow that blew around most days. The drifting is quite impressive. We saw a good number of birds but they were grouped and spooky. Right after the snow the hedges were good but after a few days of drifting the grass was covered and you couldn't get within 100 yards of them. Then it was cattail time. We did have to keep an eye out for ice fishermen on some of the ponds but the ice made it better for the dogs. It is tough shooting with clothes on to keep warm in below 0 temps but we hit a few. I actually shot close to half of mine with a 28ga to help with my ailing shoulder. Here are a few pics when the phone wasn't too froze to work. Sorry if some are repeats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GREAT WORK, TEAM DAUBER.!! Your dogs look great in all that snow.
> 
> That storm was as bad as I've seen in 25 years of going out to the prairies. Thanks for posting those pics and the hunting recap.
> 
> NB


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## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> We exceeded the number of pics allowed in one post above. :rant: So these are for the ones who are into body count.
> 
> 
> 
> Here was the bag for the California boys in one pass through a slough in that blizzard. Hard core indeed.!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB





Fantastic report NB! This one will sure make for future stories!! 


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## gundogguy

Just great After viewing the two travelogues, "Hunting the Plains" With Dauber and Natty Bumpo I would have to say both were excellent examples of wing shooting adventures.
However being not much of a fan of the "Survivor" series on television and really more of a "Downton Abbie" follower, enjoying traditions and etiquette in the field. I in my humble opinion am glad that you both shared your expedition to great plains. Hie- on to all of you fine spaniel folks!


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## michgundog

Great reports and pictures NB and Dauber. Thanks for sharing. 


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## JAM

Great pics, NB! Love the commentary, too.


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## dauber

Huge congrats to Zeta on making it thru 4 and moving on to the next series!! One of 25 still in it! That is special Gundogguy!! Competition is stiff now. 


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Huge congrats to Zeta on making it thru 4 and moving on to the next series!! One of 25 still in it! That is special Gundogguy!! Competition is stiff now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


The Warrior Princess makes her mark at her first Nationals. You go girl!!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Huge congrats to Zeta on making it thru 4 and moving on to the next series!! One of 25 still in it! That is special Gundogguy!! Competition is stiff now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app





NATTY BUMPO said:


> The Warrior Princess makes her mark at her first Nationals. You go girl!!


There is a link below that is a very short clip of Zeta at 12 weeks of age.
It was taken at Maugh Vail's, the 2nd day Zeta was in Michigan after traveling from Salmy's Kennel In West Virginia.
In that clip you will see a little pup bring Maugh Vail a paint roller, to hand I might add.
If some one had said to me that 24 months from now that little Springer would have completed 4 series and be called to water at the 2014 NOC. I Prolly would said "No way you must be smoking "wacky tobaccy" 
Every thing that happens from here on out is just a bonus.





 
With this little dog the old saying of "Plan your work, work your plan" really does accomplish much!

One other note of interest I might mention. Zeta's mom #55 Buccleuch Thistle has also been called to water and her 1/2 Brother Badger #116 has also been called to water. Badger and Zeta share the same sire NFC FC CFC Ciff. so this has turn out to be a bit of a family affair. Ya think it's in the blood?


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## michgundog

Good girl Zeta! 


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## yooperguy

Great GDG! That's neat stuff.


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## dauber

I do believe I just heard the Goddess Zeta just parted the waters in the water series. Go girl go! Take Kansas young girl!


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## gundogguy

Zeta finished the 5th series, and completed her 1st NOC, few more dogs to run. It will all be in the hands of judges now. Really thrilled the way she has handled the pressure and stress of 5 days on the prairie. Regardless of the outcome she is a good dog!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta finished the 5th series, and completed her 1st NOC, few more dogs to run. It will all be in the hands of judges now. Really thrilled the way she has handled the pressure and stress of 5 days on the prairie. Regardless of the outcome she is a good dog!



Fantastic!!!&#128512;&#128512;&#128512; That is all she can do. What an achievement!!


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Zeta finished the 5th series, and completed her 1st NOC, few more dogs to run. It will all be in the hands of judges now. Really thrilled the way she has handled the pressure and stress of 5 days on the prairie. Regardless of the outcome she is a good dog!


Fantastic Run in her very first NOC and at such a young age!

BIG CONGRATS to her owners, trainers, breeders and to the Warrior Princess herself. "Blood Will Tell", once more.

Really Happy for you Hal.

NB


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## JAM

WOW! Little Zeta has shown her stuff! I'm on pins and needles waiting for the placements. To finish the trial is awesome enough though. Good girl, Zeta!


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## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Fantastic Run in her very first NOC and at such a young age!
> 
> 
> 
> BIG CONGRATS to her owners, trainers, breeders and to the Warrior Princess herself. "Blood Will Tell", once more.
> 
> 
> 
> Really Happy for you Hal.
> 
> 
> 
> NB



Agree!! 


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## gundogguy

The placements have been awarded. Young Zeta comes up empty.
5th series witness winds whipping up to 45-50mph, Zeta had 2 traps and 1 retrieve. The old trailers adage of "you cannot catch birds and win trials" came into play. She finished the trial and really that was what was very important not sure of the final placements other than her Mom Buccleuch Thistle trained by Mike Wallace handle by Mark Hairfield was awarded 4th place.

She come home now take 7- 10 days off from training the routine. My switch grass field is just perfect for winter training.
We will only have about 8 weeks before the Spring circuit resumes. The nice thing about the trial game, it is dogs,birds, and guns almost year round!
We will not have long to wait to get the "'War Princess" back in the fray. 2015 is going to be a really great year! Hie-on!


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## JAM

#100 Salmy's Legend of Zorro-Zeta is awesome! I'll bet she's one of the youngest or maybe even THE youngest dog running amongst the nation's best of the best and finished the NOC blowing a ton of experienced, well trained, well bred dogs right out of the water!

CONGRATS! Zeta! You rock! And CONGRATS to Hal, Nancy and Mike Wallace. Nice job Team Salmi!


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## Gavan

at the Nationals. Very tough cover and competing against the best. You should be very proud.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Got a few more pics from California yesterday that I thought I would share re our crew's recent Wingshooter's Adventure in South Dakota.

Many of the bird hunters camps, sporting good stores, lodges, VFW posts, bars, etc out in Pheasant Country hold "Longest Tail Feathers" contests during bird season. Sometimes the winner gets a cash pot or maybe a funky trophy, crazy hat, or the like. Or just bragging rights for the year.

The clear winner of this title in our camp was Marshall D. now living in CA. MD is a Michigan native who went West after college to find fame and fortune in the Golden State. Marsh and my son Craig met one summer in band camp at University of Michigan a couple of decades ago. They both played trumpet in the marching band and immediately found many common interests. MD has become like the brother CW never had and both boys planned and organized this trip. I was allowed to tag along "as long as you bring TPR".

I am going to call this bird the "Boon and Crocket" rooster of this hunt. CW and I were blockers on a drive through a quarter mile long series of food plots. We jumped and killed a rooster as we walked to the end of the plots. MD was walking in some grain sorghum, was stopped for a minute, when this big boy jumped up from behind him and accelerated like a F22 Raptor. MD had bot a new Beretta Silver Pigeon O/U last spring and killed him with the second barrel high in the sky.

Here is MD with the prize winner: 32 bars! He would have won many of the LTF contests we know about. The prize rooster is frozen in Erik's freezer and will be turned into a beautiful taxidermy mount.



















And here is a repeat but a better picture of the CA crew with a 1 hour limit in a grain sorghum field during a massive snowstorm on Day 4.. These guys are all avid waterfowlers so it may have just been "a walk in the park" for them. 











NB


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## Gavan

Very nice NB.


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## dauber

That is so great to spend time with your son and friends. That is a B&C rooster. 


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## JAM

WOW, NB! That's a ROOSTER! Congrats to MD. Looks like another great adventure; good times with good company.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Very nice NB.





dauber said:


> That is so great to spend time with your son and friends. That is a B&C rooster.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app





JAM said:


> WOW, NB! That's a ROOSTER! Congrats to MD. Looks like another great adventure; good times with good company.


 
It's been an awesome November, Early snow early melt off in the spring like thaw, quite possible late season grouse hunt is still in the offing.

Hope yous all have a great Thanksgiving! Dauber do not be eating to many walleyes Thurs. Dec we see the goat hunters leave the woods and with more seasonable weather get out for some cupcake shots on grouse! 
Hie-on!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> It's been an awesome November, Early snow early melt off in the spring like thaw, quite possible late season grouse hunt is still in the offing.
> 
> Hope yous all have a great Thanksgiving! Dauber do not be eating to many walleyes Thurs. Dec we see the goat hunters leave the woods and with more seasonable weather get out for some cupcake shots on grouse!
> Hie-on!




Yes it has been quite the fall! Had a few spaniel corner regulars and or their dogs place in trials. Some top notch pictures for this falls hunting and young Zeta who we have all followed growing up finish the National Open. 

What a fall for us too. Mrs D getting a trial placement in 93 degree temps to our last hunts in -30 windchills. Not sure if we will get late season grouse here, there is close to a foot of snow on the ground right now. Its smoked turkey for the Daubers tomorrow, maybe walleye on Friday. 
Hope everyone has a fine Thanksgiving day! 



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----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Yes it has been quite the fall! Had a few spaniel corner regulars and or their dogs place in trials. Some top notch pictures for this falls hunting and young Zeta who we have all followed growing up finish the National Open.
> 
> What a fall for us too. Mrs D getting a trial placement in 93 degree temps to our last hunts in -30 windchills. Not sure if we will get late season grouse here, there is close to a foot of snow on the ground right now. Its smoked turkey for the Daubers tomorrow, maybe walleye on Friday.
> Hope everyone has a fine Thanksgiving day!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


YUP! Quite the year for the M-S.com Spaniel Corner peeps. Lots to be thankful for.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!


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## Worm Dunker

I was at Gander Mt. in Lansing they had a double barrel with a cocker engraved on one side and setters on the other. That's the first time I've seen a cocker on a gun.


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## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> Happy Thanksgiving to all!


+1 

Hear, Hear!! 

We are having turkey, and pheasant, for the friends around our dinner table today.

NB


----------



## yooperguy

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


----------



## gundogguy

Worm Dunker said:


> I was at Gander Mt. in Lansing they had a double barrel with a cocker engraved on one side and setters on the other. That's the first time I've seen a cocker on a gun.


Cool WD! Would You recall make and model, gauge?
Happy Thanksgiving



NATTY BUMPO said:


> +1
> 
> Hear, Hear!!
> 
> We are having turkey, and pheasant, for the friends around our dinner table today.
> 
> NB


Hear hear! It must be a caucus, It sounds like we are eating at your place or vice versa, My menu foundation begins with turkey and pheasant as well.

All you forum peeps have a great day!


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## Worm Dunker

It was a O/U 12 don't remember make it was a club of a gun and the worst peace of wood on a gun I've ever seen.


----------



## gundogguy

Worm Dunker said:


> It was a O/U 12 don't remember make it was a club of a gun and the worst peace of wood on a gun I've ever seen.


Sounds like a one of those Turkish Import.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Got a few more pics from California yesterday that I thought I would share re our crew's recent Wingshooter's Adventure in South Dakota.
> 
> Many of the bird hunters camps, sporting good stores, lodges, VFW posts, bars, etc out in Pheasant Country hold "Longest Tail Feathers" contests during bird season. Sometimes the winner gets a cash pot or maybe a funky trophy, crazy hat, or the like. Or just bragging rights for the year.
> 
> The clear winner of this title in our camp was Marshall D. now living in CA. MD is a Michigan native who went West after college to find fame and fortune in the Golden State. Marsh and my son Craig met one summer in band camp at University of Michigan a couple of decades ago. They both played trumpet in the marching band and immediately found many common interests. MD has become like the brother CW never had and both boys planned and organized this trip. I was allowed to tag along "as long as you bring TPR".
> 
> I am going to call this bird the "Boon and Crocket" rooster of this hunt. CW and I were blockers on a drive through a quarter mile long series of food plots. We jumped and killed a rooster as we walked to the end of the plots. MD was walking in some grain sorghum, was stopped for a minute, when this big boy jumped up from behind him and accelerated like a F22 Raptor. MD had bot a new Beretta Silver Pigeon O/U last spring and killed him with the second barrel high in the sky.
> 
> Here is MD with the prize winner: 32 bars! He would have won many of the LTF contests we know about. The prize rooster is frozen in Erik's freezer and will be turned into a beautiful taxidermy mount.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a repeat but a better picture of the CA crew with a 1 hour limit in a grain sorghum field during a massive snowstorm on Day 4.. These guys are all avid waterfowlers so it may have just been "a walk in the park" for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> NB


Is that a huge field of sorghum?


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> Is that a huge field of sorghum?


 Molasses and other by products for the cattle feed business. Takes lots of sorghum.


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## gundogguy

Nat. Amateur Champs.
Finished 3 series already and only lost 33 dogs I have a feeling the pencil will get sharpened in the 4th. Chances are 50 dogs will be dropped today!

http://www.essft.com/2014nac/callbacks_nac.html

Photos

http://www.essft.com/2014nac/photo_page_nac.html


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Molasses and other by products for the cattle feed business. Takes lots of sorghum.


Doug and Hal,

No, not for molasses, its planted exclusively for the birds. Its "wildlife sorghum" ie shorty sorghum which has a short, thick robust stalk and good seed heads too. Its left standing for the pheasants all winter long and provides both food and cover through blizzards, ice storms or whatever Mother nature throws their way out on the northern plains. Of course, the deer like it too. This place has outstanding habitat.

And BTW Doug, the roosters in this photo were all wild birds. Its easy enough to tell the difference "IF" you know what to look for. 










NB


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Doug and Hal,
> 
> No, not for molasses, its planted exclusively for the birds. Its "wildlife sorghum" ie shorty sorghum which has a short, thick robust stalk and good seed heads too. Its left standing for the pheasants all winter long and provides both food and cover through blizzards, ice storms or whatever Mother nature throws their way out on the northern plains. Of course, the deer like it too. This place has outstanding habitat.
> 
> And BTW Doug, the roosters in this photo were all wild birds. Its easy enough to tell the difference "IF" you know what to look for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB


with the bird numbers what they are in SD it would take some very large parcels just to grow the winter feed, that's for sure!


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## gundogguy

Rumor has it a Cocker has won the Irish Champs?? Having trouble getting confirmation of this!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Rumor has it a Cocker has won the Irish Champs?? Having trouble getting confirmation of this!



I saw that on Openshaw's Facebook. 


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## JAM

dauber said:


> I saw that on Openshaw's Facebook.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Thanks for the info, Dauber & GDG! I went to Wendy Openshaw's FB page and found this:

Irish AV &#8234;#&#8206;Spaniel&#8236; Championship Results.
Winner - J Heely's Mallowdale Midge handled by I. Openshaw. (1st time a &#8234;#&#8206;Cocker&#8236; #Spaniel has won the Irish Spaniel Championship)
2nd Place - B. Caffery's Gortnacor Daffodil.
3rd Place - I. Blair's Clodahill Nofler of Carnteel
4th Place - I. Openshaw's INT FTCh Holydrive Kurt

Diploma of Merit:
T. Crothers Scroggwood Cobber.
E. Scott FTCh Broomfield Rosetta.
M. Stewart's Broomfield Bayamo.
E. Smith's FTCh Nederscot Eirwen.
J. Adamson's Rothievale Larch. 
S. Morgan's Bishwell Beebop.
E. Scott's FTCh Broomfield Annie.

Way to go, Midge & Ian!


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Thanks for the info, Dauber & GDG! I went to Wendy Openshaw's FB page and found this:
> 
> Irish AV &#8234;#&#8206;Spaniel&#8236; Championship Results.
> Winner - J Heely's Mallowdale Midge handled by I. Openshaw. (1st time a &#8234;#&#8206;Cocker&#8236; #Spaniel has won the Irish Spaniel Championship)
> 2nd Place - B. Caffery's Gortnacor Daffodil.
> 3rd Place - I. Blair's Clodahill Nofler of Carnteel
> 4th Place - I. Openshaw's INT FTCh Holydrive Kurt
> 
> Diploma of Merit:
> T. Crothers Scroggwood Cobber.
> E. Scott FTCh Broomfield Rosetta.
> M. Stewart's Broomfield Bayamo.
> E. Smith's FTCh Nederscot Eirwen.
> J. Adamson's Rothievale Larch.
> S. Morgan's Bishwell Beebop.
> E. Scott's FTCh Broomfield Annie.
> 
> Way to go, Midge & Ian!


Thanks Jam! In the UK spaniels are springers and Cockers are cockers when they write or speak about the dogs and the activities
No wonder the UK spaniel blogs are a "buzz" and "twittering" like mad!
Even some aspects like "the end is near" talk:lol::lol::xzicon_sm
I do not think any one thrown them self off a bridge yet:yikes:


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## dauber

Merry Christmas to all visiting The Corner!




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## MandJ

Thoughts on Field Spaniels?


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## gundogguy

MandJ said:


> Thoughts on Field Spaniels?


Make nice pets! Breeders of Fieldie's breed for confirmation, coat length,bone, they have no trial system that would really sort out the hunting strengths and talents. I have work with 1/2 dozen of them!


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Merry Christmas to all visiting The Corner!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## michgundog

MandJ said:


> Thoughts on Field Spaniels?



GDGuy is right about the breed. I've seen a few at hunt tests that did well but I have never came across one out actually in the field or woods hunting. They're more of a novelty spaniel in my opinion like the clumbers, Sussex etc.. However, the spaniel breeds I have seen out actually hunting are both field and show bred springers, English and American cockers. In fact just last weekend I saw a guy out with 2 real nice field bred springers. 


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## gundogguy

Trailer from Paul French's video 2014 Irish AV Champs.
Nice to see folks dressed properly in the field enjoying the sporting life.
Here in the states we always look like a work detail from the county lock-up!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Trailer from Paul French's video 2014 Irish AV Champs.
> Nice to see folks dressed properly in the field enjoying the sporting life.
> Here in the states we always look like a work detail from the county lock-up!
> 
> 2014/15 Irish AV Spaniel Championship held at Glenarm, Ireland - YouTube



I resemble that remark!! But not all, the Cockers have a few that wear tie's and one would have fit in well at the Irish Championship. 











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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Nice to see folks dressed properly in the field enjoying the sporting life.
> Here in the states we always look like a work detail from the county lock-up!


Too funny!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I resemble that remark!! But not all, the Cockers have a few that wear tie's and one would have fit in well at the Irish Championship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app





JAM said:


> Too funny!


In the collage of photos you will see a work detail in progress, there will be armed guards a basket carrier, and all terrain vehicle to gather up run- a-ways. Ties or no ties you can dress us up in the USA and put us in blaze orange and you will still look like inmates from the home. Not proper folks enjoying the sporting life.
Now ask is this a sporting event or a work detail from the county lock up policing the grounds of litter and debris:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## I'm with Brandy

Well if you were paying close to $50/bird and you had to purchase 50 or more birds at a time and you could only take a few home giving the rest back to the Duke of what ever estate you were hunting at, you would probably dress like that. Besides I believe they have attire requirements at the trials.


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## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> In the collage of photos you will see a work detail in progress, there will be armed guards a basket carrier, and all terrain vehicle to gather up run- a-ways. Ties or no ties you can dress us up in the USA and put us in blaze orange and you will still look like inmates from the home. Not proper folks enjoying the sporting life.
> Now ask is this a sporting event or a work detail from the county lock up policing the grounds of litter and debris:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:






I'm with Brandy said:


> Well if you were paying close to $50/bird and you had to purchase 50 or more birds at a time and you could only take a few home giving the rest back to the Duke of what ever estate you were hunting at, you would probably dress like that. Besides I believe they have attire requirements at the trials.


Doug I was making fun, it was a *joke*! 
And beside you are wrong on all the points you tried to make. The event depicted was a Championship trial the attendees entrants and gallery would not have been giving any game to take home. Dress requirements in the UK are non existent as such. Those attending are adults and know how to dress properly for a day afield. That was the satirical point I was making!

The UK system of hunting and enjoying the sporting life is not quite that simple. The network of shoots or estate that offer and provide sport is really nothing more than a system of shooting preserves as we know it here in the states. Literally every pheasant on the island is a reared bird, they are a commodity that can be raised and marketed for profit, just like here.
The "Duke" or lord of the manor if you will charges whatever the market bears just like is done here. The estate's are under tremendous financial pressure due to the UK taxation system and have to develop many income streams, short of selling of acreage just to pay taxes. Literally The prices that you quoted are not out of line, but rather indicative the taxation rates that are prevalent on the Island.
and yet the UK government does not tell it's tax payers how to dress when the go outdoors and enjoy their dogs. Like is done here!


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> I resemble that remark!! But not all, the Cockers have a few that wear tie's and one would have fit in well at the Irish Championship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Steve,

THANKS for posting up this pic. Is that Troy, the recently crowned NC? 

His handler certainly wore some dapper threads for the occasion, looks like he just stepped out of the pages of the Orvis catalog, and maybe he did!! :yikes: A little class suitable for the Cocker Nationals.

I don't judge a book by its cover but I don't think you need to look like a guy who just stumbled out of the local homeless shelter to be a top tier grouse hunter either.

NB


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## dauber

Yes that is NFC Troy. Richie has his boots on but he is wearing his knickers under them. 

I know the work camp stuff was a joke, I was trying to keep it going for a while. 








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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Steve,
> 
> THANKS for posting up this pic. Is that Troy, the recently crowned NC?
> 
> His handler certainly wore some dapper threads for the occasion, looks like he just stepped out of the pages of the Orvis catalog, and maybe he did!! :yikes: A little class suitable for the Cocker Nationals.
> 
> I don't judge a book by its cover but I don't think you need to look like a guy who just stumbled out of the local homeless shelter to be a top tier grouse hunter either.
> 
> NB


Yes, Rich is quite dapper, and maybe a trendsetter, time will tell!


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## gundogguy

Out of curiosity who in the Mid-West is using the bucket drill to establish and reinforce "quartering " skills in either Springers or Cockers?


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## I'm with Brandy

MandJ said:


> Thoughts on Field Spaniels?


I see a lot of them in WI not to many here in MI. They do hunt with them over their. I can get you in touch with breeders in WI. If you interested.


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## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Out of curiosity who in the Mid-West is using the bucket drill to establish and reinforce "quartering " skills in either Springers or Cockers?


I don't use a bucket drill but I do use a field that has rows of 2' xmas trees. Would like to see video of the bucket drill you have any?


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## I'm with Brandy

Long weekend in Iowa guiding. 30+ birds taken, thankfully she had help from Drake and Xander, Cut her tongue a couple times, a few to many burrs . Long ride home in a warm truck.









Back to Grouse woods.


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## dauber

I'm with Brandy said:


> I don't use a bucket drill but I do use a field that has rows of 2' xmas trees. Would like to see video of the bucket drill you have any?



Don't have the computer on but look up Jim Keller's vids on utube, he has one. 

I don't nor does anyone I train with. I do value a pattern that gets out to the guns though then use the wind correctly. I do lots of headwind work with wide rolled in or planted birds to keep the pattern wide. 




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## dauber

dauber said:


> Don't have the computer on but look up Jim Keller's vids on utube, he has one.
> 
> I don't nor does anyone I train with. I do value a pattern that gets out to the guns though then use the wind correctly. I do lots of headwind work with wide rolled in or planted birds to keep the pattern wide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Doug,
It is either this one or the part 2 one.


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## I'm with Brandy

dauber said:


> Doug,
> It is either this one or the part 2 one.


It was this one. Much like I would do with xmas trees. I too train with a back wind. I also use pigeons in hand if I can get my self two people I use them as gunners and have them call the dog to them in an alternating pattern. It was interesting in the video when the dog ran out of buckets the width of his pattern shortened.

Its caused by the fact he is training in a mowed area then plants the bird in the cover at the end the dog knows when he runs out of buckets its time to find a bird.

At some point he will have to transition that training to a field that is not mowed.

interesting technique not sure I like the buckets. Thanks for posting the video


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## gundogguy

I'm with Brandy said:


> It was this one. Much like I would do with xmas trees. I too train with a back wind. I also use pigeons in hand if I can get my self two people I use them as gunners and have them call the dog to them in an alternating pattern. It was interesting in the video when the dog ran out of buckets the width of his pattern shortened.
> 
> Its caused by the fact he is training in a mowed area then plants the bird in the cover at the end the dog knows when he runs out of buckets its time to find a bird.
> 
> At some point he will have to transition that training to a field that is not mowed.
> 
> interesting technique not sure I like the buckets. Thanks for posting the video


Very True Doug. The mowed field was for the media types and camera, if that had been run in cover like at the end of the buckets we would not have seen much, and that just infuriates television people when the subject matter is hidden in weeds. Intrical use of this drill, the bucket drill, that is it is an occasional exercise for the dog not standard every time training experience.

I do not know of a video that shows how to start a dog in this program. But I do know that e-collar conditioning and place board training should be prerequisites.
Thanks for your input, both you and Dauber!


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## gundogguy

Cold December day, poor scenting conditions and strong birds good time to call Zeta off of marks and keep her honest to bird movement and gun fire.
She really is scary honest. I do not recommend a lot of training or conditioning on a down wind course (back wind), it can lead to some bad habits, such as punching out and un-steadiness due to the distance from the handler and/or gun. But it should be address on a occasion just to keep you dog with you! In the video we are running the beat due north with a stiff wind blowing on our backs from the south to the north. Nancy and I were very pleased with the dogs work that day! Under these conditions you might notice that I the gun makes the decision whether or not Nancy should send the dog for the retrieve. In this case the bird volunteered and was not actually flushed by the dog, at this point in her training Zeta only gets retrieves on bird she flushes. In a small way that allows her some ownership of birds she produces vs's birds that are volunteers. This also acts as an honor conditioning when we are training with just one dog in the field, and it requires another level steadiness.


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## dauber

That is some good stuff GDG!! By the way the vid is listed as private and I can't watch. 

You bring up good reason to keep most trainings head winds especially with young dogs. Also good tips on sending on retrieves. Zac is on a 30-50% rate of send right now and Smoke is 10% at best on birds they flush and are shot. Although our training on flushes is about done now with snow depths. 

Good info GDG!! 


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## gundogguy

My bad good to go!

Lets keep hoping for some favorable weather!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> My bad good to go!
> 
> Lets keep hoping for some favorable weather!



Nice downwind Zeta! Good honor work too on the bumped bird. 


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## JAM

Nice job, Zeta. Those downwind runs are difficult for me. I'm never sure if I'm going too fast down the field and not giving the dog a chance to cover the ground or not fast enough and the bird gets up too far for me to shoot.

My training isn't going all that well - some things better than others. As I've posted before, Jeepers was not all that fond of the place boards. He's doing better with that but still isn't crazy about them like I had hoped he'd be. What has worked for me is having my older, steady dogs come out with him - each on his own place board - and sending a different dog for each retrieve. Jeepers does well with that so steadiness is coming along. He also will "hup" to the whistle quite well at a distance.

Jeepers and I are also working on our retrieving. He's doing well with Dokkens and balls, etc. and had been starting to retrieve frozen pigeons. I had 2 pigeons in the pen that were not doing well so decided rather than waste them I'd plant them for Jeepers. I quartered him into first one which he found easily with a nice drive into the bird. He trapped it and was carrying it around. I tried to call him to me but no way was he going to give me that bird. He got possessive with it and it ended up dead.

He came upon the 2nd bird and dropped the dead one. Great. At least now I can get one bird from him. He trapped this bird too and carried it around very much alive which was a relief. However, it took a very long time for me to get this one away from him, too. 

So... No live birds for him yet. Fine. But now he's not retrieving the frozen pigeons to the place board very well. He's playing around with them and picking at the wings.

Now that it's below 0 we won't be doing much for a while. But when we get back to doing a little training it'll be back to only the place boards and only Dokkens, bumpers and balls.

That's the Central Yooper report.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> N
> 
> My training isn't going all that well - some things better than others. As I've posted before, Jeepers was not all that fond of the place boards. He's doing better with that but still _*isn't crazy *_about them like I had hoped he'd be.
> 
> Now that it's below 0 we won't be doing much for a while. But when we get back to doing a little training it'll be back to only the place boards and only Dokkens, bumpers and balls.
> 
> That's the Central Yooper report.


Two Items that I thought when i read your post.

Back up you may be going to fast. Jeepers needs to understand that all pleasure begins with the place board. Have a couple of sessions, indoors even, where Jeepers gets a premium treat and no retrieves. or possible just a nice comb and brushing session. The response your looking for is that Jeepers initiates going to the place board to receive that kind of pleasure, treat or just being brushed and praised. Once he starts viewing the place board as a source of pleasure and joy you then can reintroduce bumper or ball. The reverse is true on how one would do this if the e-collar is being used. The place becomes the only safe place on earth.
But in either case the dog must buy into that concept!

With the ambient temperature of the Central UP frozen pigeons would be a commodity in good supply. Has not been above 9 degrees for the last days here as well. Happy we did not enter in the Memorial trial Central Ohio this coming weekend.


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Two Items that I thought when i read your post.
> 
> Back up you may be going to fast. Jeepers needs to understand that all pleasure begins with the place board. Have a couple of sessions, indoors even, where Jeepers gets a premium treat and no retrieves. or possible just a nice comb and brushing session. The response your looking for is that Jeepers initiates going to the place board to receive that kind of pleasure, treat or just being brushed and praised. Once he starts viewing the place board as a source of pleasure and joy you then can reintroduce bumper or ball. The reverse is true on how one would do this if the e-collar is being used. The place becomes the only safe place on earth.
> But in either case the dog must buy into that concept!
> 
> With the ambient temperature of the Central UP frozen pigeons would be a commodity in good supply. Has not been above 9 degrees for the last days here as well. Happy we did not enter in the Memorial trial Central Ohio this coming weekend.


Thanks for the tips, GDG. 

Here's what I've got: I have a place board right at my back door. He happily gets on that one and waits to be released. I also feed him on that one. One of the things I've done with him is at feeding time, he gets on the place board, I throw a something for him to retrieve, he comes right back with it, hups with a nice presentation, and he gets fed. Perfect! I also have 2 flat boxes in my basement that I use as place boards. He voluntarily gets on those, too. It's when we move to the outdoors that the place boards lose their appeal. He's the most happy to get on them outside if the other dogs each have one, too.

We're working on it! I hope to someday come down and join you for a training session. Maybe the Daubers and some of the other Yoopers would be willing join me.

And yeah... WAY too cold for trialling! Good call.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Thanks for the tips, GDG.
> 
> Here's what I've got: I have a place board right at my back door. He happily gets on that one and waits to be released. I also feed him on that one. One of the things I've done with him is at feeding time, he gets on the place board, I throw a something for him to retrieve, he comes right back with it, hups with a nice presentation, and he gets fed. Perfect! I also have 2 flat boxes in my basement that I use as place boards. He voluntarily gets on those, too. *It's when we move to the outdoors that the place boards lose their appeal. He's the most happy to get on them outside if the other dogs each have one, too.
> *
> We're working on it! I hope to someday come down and join you for a training session. *Maybe the Daubers and some of the other Yoopers would be willing join me.
> *
> And yeah... WAY too cold for trialling! Good call.


Indoors pleasure response retrieve and feeding! outdoors way to stimulating to many distractions for the young boy dog mind. My gut reaction was slow down on that boy pup. He will grow into the outdoors and when he does you'll never look back at the tough times.

Let me Know about that visit when the weather breaks I have two great training grounds and a smoker that is always ready for a hunk of beef or pork. That's usually all it takes to get Dauber to travel.. Love to have you Yoopers down below where we trolls live!


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## yooperguy

gundogguy said:


> Indoors pleasure response retrieve and feeding! outdoors way to stimulating to many distractions for the young boy dog mind. My gut reaction was slow down on that boy pup. He will grow into the outdoors and when he does you'll never look back at the tough times.
> 
> Let me Know about that visit when the weather breaks I have two great training grounds and a smoker that is always ready for a hunk of beef or pork. That's usually all it takes to get Dauber to travel.. Love to have you Yoopers down below where we trolls live!


If at all possible... this Yooper would be interested. Happy New Year all!


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Indoors pleasure response retrieve and feeding! outdoors way to stimulating to many distractions for the young boy dog mind. My gut reaction was slow down on that boy pup. He will grow into the outdoors and when he does you'll never look back at the tough times.
> 
> Let me Know about that visit when the weather breaks I have two great training grounds and a smoker that is always ready for a hunk of beef or pork. That's usually all it takes to get Dauber to travel.. Love to have you Yoopers down below where we trolls live!


We'll work on making the outdoor place boards Jeepers' paradise. 

Looking forward to a training visit in the spring!



yooperguy2003 said:


> If at all possible... this Yooper would be interested. Happy New Year all!


Already have 1 more Yooper to join us. YIPPEE!


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> We'll work on making the outdoor place boards Jeepers' paradise.
> 
> Looking forward to a training visit in the spring!
> 
> 
> 
> Already have 1 more Yooper to join us. YIPPEE!


Ahaa I can already smell the gun powder and sweet smell of oak and hickory working it's magic on some fine meat! Did I hear prime rib?


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Ahaa I can already smell the gun powder and sweet smell of oak and hickory working it's magic on some fine meat! Did I hear prime rib?



Just let me know when the meat goes on... I can make it down in time to enjoy. Well maybe not tomorrow since U.S. 2 will probably close. 


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Just let me know when the meat goes on... I can make it down in time to enjoy. *Well maybe not tomorrow since U.S. 2 will probably close.*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Its that time of year again eh dauber? Brrrrrr


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## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> Its that time of year again eh dauber? Brrrrrr



Yup&#128516;. Darn wicked out here in the open country tonight. I see the Jack Pine burned eh! Thats too bad, where you get your wings now??


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## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Yup&#128516;. Darn wicked out here in the open country tonight. I see the Jack Pine burned eh! Thats too bad, where you get your wings now??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Yes - Jack Pine is a pile of smoldering rubble. :-( I'd say the next best place for wings is the Sundown Lounge on Saturday nights.


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## Seth L

I am looking at getting a spaniel and have it narrowed down to two different breeds. I am going to get either a AWS or a Boykin. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of these two breeds. I am curious about comparing their temperment and hunting style of these breeds.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Seth L said:


> I am looking at getting a spaniel and have it narrowed down to two different breeds. I am going to get either a AWS or a Boykin. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of these two breeds. I am curious about comparing their temperment and hunting style of these breeds.


Yes, I do believe a few regulars here on TSC have owned/or worked with dogs of these two breeds.

I would also ask the same query on the main "Upland, Dogs........." because this TSC subforum doesn't get the entire bird dog viewing audience down here. GL. 

NB


----------



## yooperguy

Seth L said:


> I am looking at getting a spaniel and have it narrowed down to two different breeds. I am going to get either a AWS or a Boykin. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of these two breeds. I am curious about comparing their temperment and hunting style of these breeds.


Send a PM to uppower on the forum. He has a Boykin and can provide some first hand knowledge. A PM to dauber on the forum might yield some first hand knowledge of the AWS. I believe he has owned them in the past.


----------



## JAM

YIKES! I came back from a quick, cold walk in the woods with the dogs about 45 minutes ago. My hubby just came home and saw a wolf crossing the road into our property taking a straight line to where we just came from. 

Delisted? Hmmmm. Lots of kids in the neighborhood and we live about 1 mile from a grade school and about 1 mile from the Gladstone High School.

The .38 will be accompanying us on our walks from now on.


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## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> YIKES! I came back from a quick, cold walk in the woods with the dogs about 45 minutes ago. My hubby just came home and saw a wolf crossing the road into our property taking a straight line to where we just came from.
> 
> .


Ruck-Row. And no wolf hunt in da UP last year either. :rant:

I'd be packing something walking the dogs that goes "BANG_BANG" if it was me too, Jam. The DNR needs to wake-up and smell the coffee.:yikes:

I know bird hunters who no longer hunt in the UP because of unsettling run ins with wolf packs.


----------



## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Ruck-Row. And no wolf hunt in da UP last year either. :rant:
> 
> I'd be packing something walking the dogs that goes "BANG_BANG" if it was me too, Jam. The DNR needs to wake-up and smell the coffee.:yikes:
> 
> I know bird hunters who no longer hunt in the UP because of unsettling run ins with wolf packs.


NB, I think I have an unnatural fear of wolves only because of my dogs. I don't fear them as much for myself although I would certainly give them plenty of space if I would happen to encounter one/them.

Dauber is very well informed on the wolf situation. I've heard him say things like, "The wolves were around the house last night." I'd have a meltdown if I had wolves right around my house. So I guess I'll have to educate myself on what to do if I would happen to encounter a wolf - especially with my dogs. I'd only shoot if forced to do so. However, if I had to decide if I'd rather receive a fine and my hunting privileges revoked or let the wolf have my dog(s) for a snack I KNOW what I'd do.


----------



## gundogguy

Seth L said:


> I am looking at getting a spaniel and have it narrowed down to two different breeds. I am going to get either a AWS or a Boykin. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of these two breeds. I am curious about comparing their temperment and hunting style of these breeds.


Seth not sure what would make a pointing type guy want to trade down for AWS or Boykin. Over the years I worked with hundreds of peops and their dogs. I have never seen a good switcheroo. That is folks thinking that life would be better if they added a dog completely different than what they had. e.g. Pointing type adding a spaniel to their pack and the reverse a spaniel guy adding a pointy dog to their mix. The base needs of the two types are counter-intuitive to each other. 
I'll let dauber chime in on AWS's if he is even interested. My take on them they are a show bred dog that folks push as hunting dogs:sad:

Boykins I have owned one for about 28 minutes There again for my taste as a Spaniel man just not enough dog for me. They arte pushed as some kind of retriever. To me they are imitators not the real deal. If you want a retriever get a black lab male out of field trial blood and be done with it.
However you spend your money you take your chances. You ask for imput.




NATTY BUMPO said:


> Ruck-Row. And no wolf hunt in da UP last year either. :rant:
> 
> I'd be packing something walking the dogs that goes "BANG_BANG" if it was me too, Jam. The DNR needs to wake-up and smell the coffee.:yikes:
> 
> I know bird hunters who no longer hunt in the UP because of unsettling run ins with wolf packs.



Bang Bang SSS! 2nd bang one was the coup de grace!


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## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> NB, I think I have an unnatural fear of wolves only because of my dogs. I don't fear them as much for myself although I would certainly give them plenty of space if I would happen to encounter one/them.
> 
> Dauber is very well informed on the wolf situation. .


I would defer to Dauber's assessment on the wolf issue up there. I would love to hear Steve's informed take on the current situation re wolves in the UP as it pertains to bird hunters and their bird dogs. And how one should handle their dogs in various situations involving one wolf or a pack of them. 

Such as, when you are aware a wolf/wolves are in the area you are hunting; when to continue on with the hunt and when to call in the dogs and just get out of there??

And from reading the deer forums in M-S, it's clear many UP deer hunters have very strong opinions on the balance between predator/prey species above the bridge.

NB


----------



## dauber

If my fingers are thawed enough I will try to answer some of these.



Seth L said:


> I am looking at getting a spaniel and have it narrowed down to two different breeds. I am going to get either a AWS or a Boykin. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of these two breeds. I am curious about comparing their temperment and hunting style of these breeds.


I have owned 3 AWS's and have had my hands training on maybe 100 while doing training clinics over the years. GDG is spot on, the breed is run by show people who "claim" to breed for the field. Over the years at the clinics I found that every under year old fbecs and fbess that came could out mark, out swim, out bird find the best AWS's we had there. I switched about 15 years ago and haven't looked back. If you want more of a retriever get one, if you are a pointing dog guy you are better staying with what you are familiar with. Spaniel training is a whole different ball game and mindset.



JAM said:


> YIKES! I came back from a quick, cold walk in the woods with the dogs about 45 minutes ago. My hubby just came home and saw a wolf crossing the road into our property taking a straight line to where we just came from.
> 
> Delisted? Hmmmm. Lots of kids in the neighborhood and we live about 1 mile from a grade school and about 1 mile from the Gladstone High School.
> 
> The .38 will be accompanying us on our walks from now on.


Your an old lady living where all the yooper transients flock too:yikes: You should be armed on all your walks!! Not only that, but with the occasional cougar walking thru the UP always keep an eye open for any danger that may arise.



NATTY BUMPO said:


> Ruck-Row. And no wolf hunt in da UP last year either. :rant:
> 
> I'd be packing something walking the dogs that goes "BANG_BANG" if it was me too, Jam. The DNR needs to wake-up and smell the coffee.:yikes:
> 
> I know bird hunters who no longer hunt in the UP because of unsettling run ins with wolf packs.


Not sure what the DNR can do??? I guess they could try to succeed from the union since it is a federal judge who has stopped everything now, not only in Michigan, but Wisconsin and Minn. too. The DNR supports wolf hunting. 



JAM said:


> NB, I think I have an unnatural fear of wolves only because of my dogs. I don't fear them as much for myself although I would certainly give them plenty of space if I would happen to encounter one/them.
> 
> Dauber is very well informed on the wolf situation. I've heard him say things like, "The wolves were around the house last night." I'd have a meltdown if I had wolves right around my house. So I guess I'll have to educate myself on what to do if I would happen to encounter a wolf - especially with my dogs. I'd only shoot if forced to do so. However, if I had to decide if I'd rather receive a fine and my hunting privileges revoked or let the wolf have my dog(s) for a snack I KNOW what I'd do.


Yes wolves occasionally come thru my yard and I hear them howl often from the house. When they come thru the yard it is usually after they have made a chase on a deer that leads them close to the house. Here like where you live luckily isn't real close to the packs home site. As I always tell everyone, there is "no place" in the UP where there isn't wolves. There are deer everywhere at the right times of year and there will be wolves nearby. And you NLP guys will have the same thing in the next 10 years or so. If you feed deer in the winter by your house you can expect wolves to come by looking for a meal too. 

If a wolf gets close enough to attack your dogs on a walk you would be considered in danger as well and you can defend yourself even with the current court order. 

Heck we wolves had shock howling to our shooting training last summer numerous times at Bonny Field! Keep alert at all times you are out JAM!


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> I would defer to Dauber's assessment on the wolf issue up there. I would love to hear Steve's informed take on the current situation re wolves in the UP as it pertains to bird hunters and their bird dogs. And how one should handle their dogs in various situations involving one wolf or a pack of them.
> 
> Such as, when you are aware a wolf/wolves are in the area you are hunting; when to continue on with the hunt and when to call in the dogs and just get out of there??
> 
> And from reading the deer forums in M-S, it's clear many UP deer hunters have very strong opinions on the balance between predator/prey species above the bridge.
> 
> NB


As I stated above, anywhere you are in the UP you can encounter a wolf, even downtown Marquette or the Soo. A good place to start is here... http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_12205_63607_63608-287524--,00.html

If there has been recent dog attacks in an area I tell people to avoid it. These are either home site areas, or conflict areas between packs. Keep an eye open for droppings, wolf droppings are large and have chucks of bone in them. Droppings can be seen driving along logging trails and if the wolf is marking its territory the droppings will be in the middle of the trail. The hog Island road area near Naubinway is a conflict area and most days you will see fresh piles in the road. 

Most of the dog killings occur in mid to late August, is usually hounds (they are barkers that helps draw in wolves) This is the time of year that the pups of the year are just starting to run with the pack and the pack is VERY protective at that time especially if they hear howling. The other time that is bad for beagles is late Jan.-Feb. the breeding season for wolves. Again howling and barking is interpreted as a challenge to the wolves territory at a time they are being especially territorial. Bird dogs that are not howling are at much less danger. I would not say no danger...but then dogs are hit by cars, run through by sticks and killed by bear much more often. 

If I come across various aged tracks and/or droppings that indicated frequent visits, stay clear. Otherwise wolves check their boundaries more on a 5-10 day rotation. Stay aware and enjoy being out. Sometime in the next half year or so there should be an article I helped with on hunting in wolf country should come out in one of the dog magazines.


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## WestCoastHunter

dauber said:


> As I stated above, anywhere you are in the UP you can encounter a wolf, even downtown Marquette or the Soo. A good place to start is here... http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_12205_63607_63608-287524--,00.html
> 
> If there has been recent dog attacks in an area I tell people to avoid it. These are either home site areas, or conflict areas between packs. Keep an eye open for droppings, wolf droppings are large and have chucks of bone in them. Droppings can be seen driving along logging trails and if the wolf is marking its territory the droppings will be in the middle of the trail. The hog Island road area near Naubinway is a conflict area and most days you will see fresh piles in the road.
> 
> Most of the dog killings occur in mid to late August, is usually hounds (they are barkers that helps draw in wolves) This is the time of year that the pups of the year are just starting to run with the pack and the pack is VERY protective at that time especially if they hear howling. The other time that is bad for beagles is late Jan.-Feb. the breeding season for wolves. Again howling and barking is interpreted as a challenge to the wolves territory at a time they are being especially territorial. Bird dogs that are not howling are at much less danger. I would not say no danger...but then dogs are hit by cars, run through by sticks and killed by bear much more often.
> 
> If I come across various aged tracks and/or droppings that indicated frequent visits, stay clear. Otherwise wolves check their boundaries more on a 5-10 day rotation. Stay aware and enjoy being out. Sometime in the next half year or so there should be an article I helped with on hunting in wolf country should come out in one of the dog magazines.


Which publication? I'd like to read it.

You're advice on this matter is sound and I'm often surprised at how many people, including wolf hunters, don't really know about the above.

Thanks.


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## dauber

WestCoastHunter said:


> Which publication? I'd like to read it.
> 
> You're advice on this matter is sound and I'm often surprised at how many people, including wolf hunters, don't really know about the above.
> 
> Thanks.



I'm not sure. I just contributed. I believe it will be during the summer. 


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## JAM

dauber said:


> As I stated above, anywhere you are in the UP you can encounter a wolf, even downtown Marquette or the Soo. A good place to start is here... http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_12205_63607_63608-287524--,00.html
> 
> If there has been recent dog attacks in an area I tell people to avoid it. These are either home site areas, or conflict areas between packs. Keep an eye open for droppings, wolf droppings are large and have chucks of bone in them. Droppings can be seen driving along logging trails and if the wolf is marking its territory the droppings will be in the middle of the trail. The hog Island road area near Naubinway is a conflict area and most days you will see fresh piles in the road.
> 
> Most of the dog killings occur in mid to late August, is usually hounds (they are barkers that helps draw in wolves) This is the time of year that the pups of the year are just starting to run with the pack and the pack is VERY protective at that time especially if they hear howling. The other time that is bad for beagles is late Jan.-Feb. the breeding season for wolves. Again howling and barking is interpreted as a challenge to the wolves territory at a time they are being especially territorial. Bird dogs that are not howling are at much less danger. I would not say no danger...but then dogs are hit by cars, run through by sticks and killed by bear much more often.
> 
> If I come across various aged tracks and/or droppings that indicated frequent visits, stay clear. Otherwise wolves check their boundaries more on a 5-10 day rotation. Stay aware and enjoy being out. Sometime in the next half year or so there should be an article I helped with on hunting in wolf country should come out in one of the dog magazines.


Thanks for the info, Steve. Just what I'm looking for!


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## NATTY BUMPO

THANKS, Steve. Great info on operating in wolf country. We don't have much of a problem down below the bridge _yet_. But I'd be surprised if some didn't cross over the ice last winter. There was plenty of it and it lasted a long time.

I just became aware of the recent federal lawsuit ruling. And hopefully it can be overturned on appeal. We need a way to manage the growing wolf populations.

Hunting birds over spaniels has its advantages, and never more so than when hunting in wolf country!

NB


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## Gavan

with regards to boards is to move them so the dog knows he has to respond to them the same way regardless of location. By moving I would suggest leaving your own yard and setting up the board for your training. Hearing that you have a board sitting outside your door be careful that the board is used in a controlled way. Don't let the board represent a place to play, it is for work and the pup needs to know that. It's ok to make it a pleasurable place by using tidbits, etc. but not to steal items and take them back to the board to chew on, etc. If that can't be managed then only bring the board out for a training session.

As GDG said take it slow and consistently get what you want before moving on.


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## WestCoastHunter

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Hunting birds over spaniels has its advantages, and never more so than when hunting in wolf country!
> 
> NB


You really have to wonder if small wide ranging dogs will be as popular if wolves become more prevalent in the woods.


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## Steelheadfred

congrats Steve, you should write more, you bring balance to a lot of issues.


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## JAM

Gavan said:


> with regards to boards is to move them so the dog knows he has to respond to them the same way regardless of location. By moving I would suggest leaving your own yard and setting up the board for your training. Hearing that you have a board sitting outside your door be careful that the board is used in a controlled way. Don't let the board represent a place to play, it is for work and the pup needs to know that. It's ok to make it a pleasurable place by using tidbits, etc. but not to steal items and take them back to the board to chew on, etc. If that can't be managed then only bring the board out for a training session.
> 
> As GDG said take it slow and consistently get what you want before moving on.


Thanks for the tips, Gavan. As I've mentioned before, I've never used place boards before so appreciate all the help. Jeepers likes to get on the place boards in the basement and in the garage (which is by the back door). He just "has better things to do" than stay on the boards when they're out in the yard. He's too distracted with other things like snow coming off the trees, oak leaves blowing around, etc. It's too cold to work on making them "paradise" this week. It felt like a heat wave when I went out a little while ago. It's 9 above.


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## Gavan

We had a high of 10 yesterday. Regarding the distractions make sure you don't have the boards on the ground when the whole pack is out. That will make them a play device/area for the puppy. Also, don't try to do serious training right out of the kennel if he's been cooped up for too long. Give him a couple of minutes to run it off before putting the bords down and getting to work. Disclaimer:I've made all of these mistakes
myself.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> with regards to boards is to move them so the dog knows he has to respond to them the same way regardless of location. By moving I would suggest leaving your own yard and setting up the board for your training. Hearing that you have a board sitting outside your door be careful that the board is used in a controlled way. Don't let the board represent a place to play, it is for work and the pup needs to know that. It's ok to make it a pleasurable place by using tidbits, etc. but not to steal items and take them back to the board to chew on, etc. If that can't be managed then only bring the board out for a training session.
> 
> As GDG said take it slow and consistently get what you want before moving on.





JAM said:


> Thanks for the tips, Gavan. As I've mentioned before, I've never used place boards before so appreciate all the help. Jeepers likes to get on the place boards in the basement and in the garage (which is by the back door). He just "has better things to do" than stay on the boards when they're out in the yard. He's too distracted with other things like snow coming off the trees, oak leaves blowing around, etc. It's too cold to work on making them "paradise" this week. It felt like a heat wave when I went out a little while ago. It's 9 above.





Gavan said:


> We had a high of 10 yesterday. Regarding the distractions make sure you don't have the boards on the ground when the whole pack is out. That will make them a play device/area for the puppy. Also, don't try to do serious training right out of the kennel if he's been cooped up for too long. Give him a couple of minutes to run it off before putting the bords down and getting to work. Disclaimer:I've made all of these mistakes
> myself.


Good tread here you guys, if I may offer an insight we gundog trainer types do not think of. About 7 years ago i met a very accomplished shutzhund dog trainer. A Shutzhund dog has to be well verse in 3 different and some times conflicting disciplines. Step for step tracking(not air scent tracking), Protection, explosive on command attacking abilities that the dog holds the "bad guy" under all circumstances, and Obedience, that makes OtCH AKC obedience seem pale in comparison. The amount of balance needed to achieve these 3 disciplines needed is just amazing.
The biggest read the handler has to make is when the dog needs to transition from "Drive to Pack" This concept is studied quite often in the development of a high level working schutzhund dog.

The "place boards" are place that helps the handler read this transition. when dog is at place he is in Pack he is cooperating with the handler and accepting the handlers leadership. Now we all would like to think that our dogs are happiest when they running at top speeds investigating the area they are in, not true!! They are happiest when they understand the "calm assertive" leadership that the handler provides and they learn that at the "boards". They also learn there is a wonderful pay-off when they accept that role of being a member of the pack and being allowed to transition into Drive and energy release.
Think of the Big Cats, Lion Tigers Leopards without place boards most of the trainers would be just a light snack! Place board training also helps the big cat trainers to read when the Cats are in Drive or in acceptance of the handlers leadership role.

This concept of Pack to Drive and back to Pack is essential with out it Schultz en dogs could very easily go out of balance and become very dangerous. Or a Spaniel could go out of balance and break or fail a retrieve!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Good tread here you guys, if I may offer an insight we gundog trainer types do not think of. About 7 years ago i met a very accomplished shutzhund dog trainer. A Shutzhund dog has to be well verse in 3 different and some times conflicting disciplines. Step for step tracking(not air scent tracking), Protection, explosive on command attacking abilities that the dog holds the "bad guy" under all circumstances, and Obedience, that makes OtCH AKC obedience seem pale in comparison. The amount of balance needed to achieve these 3 disciplines needed is just amazing.
> The biggest read the handler has to make is when the dog needs to transition from "Drive to Pack" This concept is studied quite often in the development of a high level working schutzhund dog.
> 
> The "place boards" are place that helps the handler read this transition. when dog is at place he is in Pack he is cooperating with the handler and accepting the handlers leadership. Now we all would like to think that our dogs are happiest when they running at top speeds investigating the area they are in, not true!! They are happiest when they understand the "calm assertive" leadership that the handler provides and they learn that at the "boards". They also learn there is a wonderful pay-off when they accept that role of being a member of the pack and being allowed to transition into Drive and energy release.
> Think of the Big Cats, Lion Tigers Leopards without place boards most of the trainers would be just a light snack! Place board training also helps the big cat trainers to read when the Cats are in Drive or in acceptance of the handlers leadership role.
> 
> This concept of Pack to Drive and back to Pack is essential with out it Schultz en dogs could very easily go out of balance and become very dangerous. Or a Spaniel could go out of balance and break or fail a retrieve!



X2! That is exactly the "Balance" Jason Givens speaks of. I have read some books on Navy Seal dogs and training (straight from Shutzhund backgrounds). And is very interesting how they use the "reward/release" to ingrain the balance needed to accomplish conflicting tasks. Good stuff everyone. 


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## JAM

Good stuff, guys! Thank you!

I'm out of data "tokens" until the 14th or 15th so have to get on before 8 am or just sneak a little look now that then.

Will check in again tomorrow before 8 am.


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## JAM

7:50 am so I have to make it quick. 

I have a question about the place board in the yard... Should I stop throwing Dokkens for him and having him return to the board? He does that quite well. He had been retrieving frozen pigeons back to the board in the yard, too, until he trapped the 2 live birds. The live birds caused him to pick at the frozen birds and not want to bring them back to the board. 

He still does well in the basement and from the board by the back door.

Thanks for the help! Very much appreciated.


----------



## dauber

JAM said:


> 7:50 am so I have to make it quick.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question about the place board in the yard... Should I stop throwing Dokkens for him and having him return to the board? He does that quite well. He had been retrieving frozen pigeons back to the board in the yard, too, until he trapped the 2 live birds. The live birds caused him to pick at the frozen birds and not want to bring them back to the board.
> 
> 
> 
> He still does well in the basement and from the board by the back door.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help! Very much appreciated.




I look at my spaniel training sortof like building an Egyptian pyramid. The bigger and more solid the base/foundation, the higher I can go, block by block!! Most everything I do training is add on tasks and to a point continue with the earlier lessons. I still work on the very first " training" a pup or adult gets when I bring them home, the come command as well as the second thing, hup. We do this with all 3 in the house everyday. These 2 things are the foundation of many many tasks the spaniel will be asked in the future. The finished retrieve starts and ends with the hup, also includes the come for the return. GDD'a post hits why you only give youngsters a couple retrieves, pup goes into drive on the retrieve, then back into pack when done. We are teaching the so-called on/off switch, as well as just beginning to feather in independence in pup. 

So to finally get to your question, no I wouldn't stop, I would be continuing and building the next block. Maybe throw some and pick them up yourself, have him return and hold bumper while you throw the next, throw a retrieve, have him come back to the board, walk away and call him to you away from the board. In time you can put out 3 boards throw retrieves and have him move board to board before sending. Then add in the hold the bumper going board to board before taking bumper and sending. 

The whole time you must be observing his head, ears, eyes, and actions. Is something overwhelming him? Back up one step, build his confidence with success, then try again. If he is playing with a dead bird stop for now and back up to bumpers for a while, then in a week or two try it again but only once especially if he plays. 



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----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> I look at my spaniel training sortof like building an Egyptian pyramid. The bigger and more solid the base/foundation, the higher I can go, block by block!! Most everything I do training is add on tasks and to a point continue with the earlier lessons. I still work on the very first " training" a pup or adult gets when I bring them home, the come command as well as the second thing, hup. We do this with all 3 in the house everyday. These 2 things are the foundation of many many tasks the spaniel will be asked in the future. The finished retrieve starts and ends with the hup, also includes the come for the return. GDD'a post hits why you only give youngsters a couple retrieves, pup goes into drive on the retrieve, then back into pack when done. We are teaching the so-called on/off switch, as well as just beginning to feather in independence in pup.
> 
> So to finally get to your question, no I wouldn't stop, I would be continuing and building the next block. Maybe throw some and pick them up yourself, have him return and hold bumper while you throw the next, throw a retrieve, have him come back to the board, walk away and call him to you away from the board. In time you can put out 3 boards throw retrieves and have him move board to board before sending. Then add in the hold the bumper going board to board before taking bumper and sending.
> 
> The whole time you must be observing his head, ears, eyes, and actions. Is something overwhelming him? Back up one step, build his confidence with success, then try again. If he is playing with a dead bird stop for now and back up to bumpers for a while, then in a week or two try it again but only once especially if he plays.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Thanks, Steve. I'll work on those things. I hope we can get together again one of these days for some training. I'm already tired of this nasty, cold weather.


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Thanks, Steve. I'll work on those things. I hope we can get together again one of these days for some training. I'm already tired of this nasty, cold weather.


Jill, think of those boards as an agility course. and that's if you just have one station. They offer all kinds of latitude for creative interaction between you and your dog. the sky's the limit as to what can be taught,polished, and proofed once the basic concept is learned by the dog. And besides with this tough weather and long and dark winter, success on the boards will make old man winter fly by head long into spring!
Currently 2 above here in 3Rivers.


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## Gavan

Makes a lot of sense.IMHO JAM I wouldn't stop doing what's working i.e. Dokkens and boards. Just make sure the pups doing it right and don't overdo it and bore him. My pup Declan messed with live birds on retrieves as well. We put the pup up on the "bench" at teach hold, then fetch, then walking on the bench "holding" and delivering. Making holding, fetching, and delivering a command (obligation), not an option. That part is controversial in our sport as many would prefer to not "force" every dog. If the dog retrieves "well enough" these folks would just let it be. However, when it's hot, dog is tired, bird is shot up, new type of bird, larger bird, wet bird, etc. the dog might choose not to retrieve or deliver properly. Then what?

Soft mouth dogs have a tendency to be sloppy with live birds. The downside to breeding away from "hard mouth". Not at all unusual these days.

Reminder to think about a clear separation between play and work areas with your puppy.

Good thread and good info from GDG and Dauber.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Makes a lot of sense.IMHO JAM I wouldn't stop doing what's working i.e. Dokkens and boards. Just make sure the pups doing it right and don't overdo it and bore him. My pup Declan messed with live birds on retrieves as well. We put the pup up on the "bench" at teach hold, then fetch, then walking on the bench "holding" and delivering. Making holding, fetching, and delivering a command (obligation), not an option. That part is controversial in our sport as many would prefer to not "force" every dog. If the dog retrieves "well enough" these folks would just let it be. However, when it's hot, dog is tired, bird is shot up, new type of bird, larger bird, wet bird, etc. the dog might choose not to retrieve or deliver properly. Then what?
> 
> Soft mouth dogs have a tendency to be sloppy with live birds. The downside to breeding away from "hard mouth". Not at all unusual these days.
> 
> Reminder to think about a clear separation between play and work areas with your puppy.
> 
> Good thread and good info from GDG and Dauber.


Big Hie on Scott, really looking forward to seeing and hearing about that Declan pup this spring! This is what forums are most useful for people with similar issues and desire in their dog to be successful. It is what makes the Span.Corner at its best!


----------



## michgundog

http://www.gundogmag.com/breeds/breed-profile-field-spaniel/

Good information about field Spaniels. I know someone asked about them a few weeks back on here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Jill, think of those boards as an agility course. and that's if you just have one station. They offer all kinds of latitude for creative interaction between you and your dog. the sky's the limit as to what can be taught,polished, and proofed once the basic concept is learned by the dog. And besides with this tough weather and long and dark winter, success on the boards will make old man winter fly by head long into spring!
> Currently 2 above here in 3Rivers.


I just started going to agility again. Today is day 2. Jeepers doesn't know how to do anything but the table/board and is already a pro at that!  Yesterday we did some gun proofing. I had Jeepers on the board and threw bumpers while Bob stood way out and fired as the bumper reached its apex. No problems. WHEW! However, I did notice that Jeepers had "snow toes" and was sliding all over the shiny place board and had a difficult time staying on it. I have a "table" which is from the agility games and it has sand in the paint so is much less slippery. I'm going to give that one a try next time we're out.

Still cold out there but at least it's above 0.


----------



## Gavan

Most carpet sales stores have samples that are obsolete and would be happy to give them to you. Provides a more stable surface for the dog.


----------



## JAM

Gavan said:


> Most carpet sales stores have samples that are obsolete and would be happy to give them to you. Provides a more stable surface for the dog.


Good idea, Gavan! I have a very long piece of indoor/outdoor carpet for my camper. I can just cut off a piece of that and attach it to the board.


----------



## gundogguy

Winner: Mr I Openshaw with Mallowdale Xfactor
2nd: Mr E Scott with Chyknell Golden Eagle 
3rd: Mr I English with FTCh Broadmefarm Beau 
4th: Ms J Menzies with FTCh Gournaycourt Ginger handled by Mr J Bailey


With lots of CM's.
Both the Springer and Cockers Champs seemed to be quite liberal in handing out CM Which they call Diploma's of Merit.


----------



## michgundog

The SMSSTC will be having a Hunt Test Judging Seminar:

Sunday February 1 2015
at the Gander Mountain in Novi, MI ( West Oaks, 43825 West Oaks Drive, Novi, MI 48377)
Cost is $35

The seminar will start at 10am and a light breakfast provided. There will be a break for lunch which is also provided.

The seminar is recommend for those needing to:

- Renew their judging eligibility
- Considering Judging
- Handlers that want a greater understanding to handle at Hunt Tests

Please RSVP by sending a email to [email protected] by January 28th.


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


----------



## gundogguy

Hi all you spanieler's keep your dogs warm this week. I'll be out in Mesa Arizona. meeting up my younger brother and spending a week at the Randy Hundley Fantasy baseball camp. Held At the Chicago Cubs spring training facility's in Mesa, Arizona.. Play ball Hie-on!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Hi all you spanieler's keep your dogs warm this week. I'll be out in Mesa Arizona. meeting up my younger brother and spending a week at the Randy Hundley Fantasy baseball camp. Held At the Chicago Cubs spring training facility's in Mesa, Arizona.. Play ball Hie-on!


Hey Hal,

Sounds like a fantastic week at baseball camp in AZ!!

Safe travels and be sure you take along a bottle of "Absorbine Jr", just the ticket for man or beast. 

In a real nice January thaw day here in TC at the moment. 35 deg and sunny. 

NB


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Hi all you spanieler's keep your dogs warm this week. I'll be out in Mesa Arizona. meeting up my younger brother and spending a week at the Randy Hundley Fantasy baseball camp. Held At the Chicago Cubs spring training facility's in Mesa, Arizona.. Play ball Hie-on!



That is just plain GREAT!! Hope ya's both have a great time!! It's a "dry" climate there so take lots if lotion along with the Jr. &#128516;


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Hi all you spanieler's keep your dogs warm this week. I'll be out in Mesa Arizona. meeting up my younger brother and spending a week at the Randy Hundley Fantasy baseball camp. Held At the Chicago Cubs spring training facility's in Mesa, Arizona.. Play ball Hie-on!


Have a nice, warm, fun vacation, Hal! Hope you have a great time!


----------



## michgundog

The SMSSTC will be having a Hunt Test Judging Seminar:



Sunday February 1 2015

at the Gander Mountain in Novi, MI ( West Oaks, 43825 West Oaks Drive, Novi, MI 48377)

Cost is $35



The seminar will start at 10 A. M. and a light breakfast provided. There will be a break for lunch which is also provided.



The seminar is recommend for those needing to:



- Renew their judging eligibility

- Considering Judging

- Handlers that want a greater understanding to handle at Hunt Tests



Please RSVP by sending a email to [email protected] by January 28th.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta training at Salmy Kennel in West Virginia. We could not do that here right now.



Very nice! Not quite like that up here yet either!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Zeta training at Salmy Kennel in West Virginia. We could not do that here right now.


Great pictures!


----------



## Gavan

this weekend. 5 inches of fresh snow yesterday but they typically have good cover down there. It's a chukar trial but it beats watching Basketball on TV.


----------



## JAM

Gavan said:


> this weekend. 5 inches of fresh snow yesterday but they typically have good cover down there. It's a chukar trial but it beats watching Basketball on TV.


Good luck, Gavan! Stay warm!


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> this weekend. 5 inches of fresh snow yesterday but they typically have good cover down there. It's a chukar trial but it beats watching Basketball on TV.


Springer trials this weekend, Utah, N.Colorado Pennsylvania New Jersey.
Safe travels Gavan! Best of luck.
Zeta be at Mid-Penn on Saturday, birds and courses made that decision.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Springer trials this weekend, Utah, N.Colorado Pennsylvania New Jersey.
> Safe travels Gavan! Best of luck.
> Zeta be at Mid-Penn on Saturday, birds and courses made that decision.



Good luck Gavan and Zeta!

I have to see if my 50" blower can move these drifts from the blow yesterday, some are armpit deep!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> I have to see if my 50" blower can move these drifts from the blow yesterday, some are armpit deep!


Good luck with the drifts. We live in the woods, so we don't get much drifting. And, with Lk MI 85%+ ice covered, the LE Machine has really quieted down.

That said, haven't seen anything here yet the Kubota plus 60" NH blower couldn't handle. Just need to take smaller bites sometimes.

RU picking up Murphy tomorrow??


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Good luck with the drifts. We live in the woods, so we don't get much drifting. And, with Lk MI 85%+ ice covered, the LE Machine has really quieted down.
> 
> 
> 
> That said, haven't seen anything here yet the Kubota plus 60" NH blower couldn't handle. Just need to take smaller bites sometimes.
> 
> 
> 
> RU picking up Murphy tomorrow??



Small passes are the key. I can almost walk over them so it will be tough, 

Yes Murphy day tomorrow! 

Enjoy the melt!


----------



## dauber

Murphy made his debut to the UP yesterday. He did very well in the trip home and had a good night for his first without his sisters!





















Had to get some pics eating since he is only still when sleeping or pooping.


----------



## michgundog

Good looking boy Steve! Have fun!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Yeah, that Murph's a looker, Steve. Nice blaze and even markings too.

LUV those blue roan Cockers. Fun Times ahead.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Murphy made his debut to the UP yesterday. He did very well in the trip home and had a good night for his first without his sisters!
> 
> View attachment 75765
> View attachment 75766
> View attachment 75767
> 
> 
> Had to get some pics eating since he is only still when sleeping or pooping.


That's what I've been waiting for! Pictures!

He's gorgeous. Welcome to the U.P., Murphy!


----------



## dauber

Thanks. He has already had 3 training sessions, one last night and 2 today. He has 6 nice retrieves with 3 different objects so far. He learned place this morning, now needs learn "get off place"!! He is coming well and getting a handle on hup too. The next weeks will be 5-10 of these short sessions daily keeping a close eye to make sure the attitude is happy, excited and intense while building the solid foundation to hopefully carry Murphy to his potential.


----------



## Gavan

at Bushy Hill in New Jersey. It was a chukar trial and winning requires precision and that's what we had. Good cover with 2-3 inches of soft snow. 6 birds, six good finds, good wind use and course coverage, three spot on retrieves including a 60 yarder back and to the right in the 3rd. Very little wind in the 1st and tough scenting, scenting improved for the second as it warmed up, downwind cross in 2nd and 3rd. Didn't put a foot down wrong as they say. I was very proud of him. Back to back feels pretty good. Now a week off and then New Jersey trial. Maybe Mid-Atlantic, Central NE, and Southern Tier if I decide to chase points.


----------



## michgundog

Congrats to you and Gavan!!


----------



## dauber

Congrats Gavan! 2 in a row is very nice!!


----------



## JAM

Gavan said:


> at Bushy Hill in New Jersey. It was a chukar trial and winning requires precision and that's what we had. Good cover with 2-3 inches of soft snow. 6 birds, six good finds, good wind use and course coverage, three spot on retrieves including a 60 yarder back and to the right in the 3rd. Very little wind in the 1st and tough scenting, scenting improved for the second as it warmed up, downwind cross in 2nd and 3rd. Didn't put a foot down wrong as they say. I was very proud of him. Back to back feels pretty good. Now a week off and then New Jersey trial. Maybe Mid-Atlantic, Central NE, and Southern Tier if I decide to chase points.


WOW! Double header wins! It doesn't get any better than that. Congrats!


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Thanks. He has already had 3 training sessions, one last night and 2 today. He has 6 nice retrieves with 3 different objects so far. He learned place this morning, now needs learn "get off place"!! He is coming well and getting a handle on hup too. The next weeks will be 5-10 of these short sessions daily keeping a close eye to make sure the attitude is happy, excited and intense while building the solid foundation to hopefully carry Murphy to his potential.


Nicely done. Looking forward to following his progress.


----------



## dauber

First crack at the taller place board.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> First crack at the taller place board.
> 
> View attachment 75792


Good boy, Murphy!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> There you Go! Tilden Valley is the best training group in the U.P.


 !


----------



## sgc

Is there an upcoming Spring Spaniel event in Michigan?


----------



## michgundog

sgc said:


> Is there an upcoming Spring Spaniel event in Michigan?



SMSSTC Hunt Test. I will post info on it soon.


----------



## sgc

thanks, Mike


----------



## michgundog

sgc said:


> thanks, Mike



You're welcome Stan. Hopefully, we'll see you.


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> SMSSTC Hunt Test. I will post info on it soon.



This is the only event in Michigan I know of this spring. 

There is s cocker trial in Ohio this weekend, too late to enter though. http://www.fieldcockers.com/2015Premiums/NEOBDA_Spring_Cocker_FT-032815_2015444602.pdf

Fox Valley is having cocker trial April 10,11,12 south of Green Bay.


----------



## GrayLand

Looking for a little info on FBEC's. I'm doing research for my next dog as my Brittany is 11 yrs old now and the field bred English Cocker has piqued my interest. I read an article somewhere on-line where the author made a statement about needing more than one Cocker if you are going to hunt for more than a couple of days in row. He said that the intensity that these dogs hunt with will drain them if they are hunted for let's say a week.
Is there any truth in this?
Thanks, Gary


----------



## sgc

Thanks Steve. Looking to get a little more involved with Jack and go watch some spaniels work, but not enter Jack. Finally retired and, also, got into and then (recently) back out of beagling since I last saw you. I'm just sticking with Jack from now on.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Well still pretty cold and lots of snow up here but I went down to Ohio last weekend to get some training in before trials start up. Nice to be working the dog again! Here's a couple pics. Doing this on my phone so hope it works.


----------



## dauber

GrayLand said:


> Looking for a little info on FBEC's. I'm doing research for my next dog as my Brittany is 11 yrs old now and the field bred English Cocker has piqued my interest. I read an article somewhere on-line where the author made a statement about needing more than one Cocker if you are going to hunt for more than a couple of days in row. He said that the intensity that these dogs hunt with will drain them if they are hunted for let's say a week.
> 
> Is there any truth in this?
> 
> Thanks, Gary



It depends what you want in a hunting dog concerning how long they hunt. They will adapt, if you want them puttering around for hours at a time they will do that. I personally prefer a very intense dog work for 30-45 minutes, put him up and use another dog. Most of my grouse hunts are 45 minutes then go to another spot. 

If you are used to pointing dogs, it will be an adjustment going to a flusher. Good luck with your search.


----------



## GrayLand

dauber said:


> It depends what you want in a hunting dog concerning how long they hunt. They will adapt, if you want them puttering around for hours at a time they will do that. I personally prefer a very intense dog work for 30-45 minutes, put him up and use another dog. Most of my grouse hunts are 45 minutes then go to another spot.
> 
> If you are used to pointing dogs, it will be an adjustment going to a flusher. Good luck with your search.


Thanks, that's what I was wondering about. My grouse hunting sounds about the the same as yours, but my hunting out in Iowa tends to last longer from spot to spot and we hunt for a week or so while there.
I have pheasant hunted behind labs so I have an inkling about flushing dogs, and as I am getting older, I thought I might try that style of bird hunting for a change.
Thanks for the insight, Gary


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

GrayLand said:


> Looking for a little info on FBEC's. I'm doing research for my next dog as my Brittany is 11 yrs old now and the field bred English Cocker has piqued my interest. I read an article somewhere on-line where the author made a statement about needing more than one Cocker if you are going to hunt for more than a couple of days in row. He said that the intensity that these dogs hunt with will drain them if they are hunted for let's say a week.
> Is there any truth in this?
> Thanks, Gary


Dauber has given good advice. A good hunting Cocker has a big motor.

I'll give you my take on your query. I hunt a brace of FBECS. Here at home, I'll usually hunt spots which are no more than an hours walk. Then drive to the next spot and put the other dog down. They will go for days like this but they are in shape at the start of the season.

Different story Out West. You will use up dog power a lot quicker in the Dakotas. We always hunt with other people so we can just rotate dogs down through a multi day hunt. Plus that cover will beat up a dog quicker and the risk of injury is higher too. 

NB


----------



## dauber

GrayLand said:


> Thanks, that's what I was wondering about. My grouse hunting sounds about the the same as yours, but my hunting out in Iowa tends to last longer from spot to spot and we hunt for a week or so while there.
> 
> I have pheasant hunted behind labs so I have an inkling about flushing dogs, and as I am getting older, I thought I might try that style of bird hunting for a change.
> 
> Thanks for the insight, Gary



I also go west for 12-14 days of pheasant each year too and our hunts are more in the 1 to 1.5 hour there. 

Last year we were in ND for 12 days with 9 of them being below 0. They held up well.


----------



## gundogguy

GrayLand said:


> Looking for a little info on FBEC's. I'm doing research for my next dog as my Brittany is 11 yrs old now and the field bred English Cocker has piqued my interest. I read an article somewhere on-line where the author made a statement about needing more than one Cocker if you are going to hunt for more than a couple of days in row. He said that the intensity that these dogs hunt with will drain them if they are hunted for let's say a week.
> Is there any truth in this?
> Thanks, Gary





dauber said:


> It depends what you want in a hunting dog concerning how long they hunt. They will adapt, if you want them puttering around for hours at a time they will do that. I personally prefer a very intense dog work for 30-45 minutes, put him up and use another dog. Most of my grouse hunts are 45 minutes then go to another spot.
> 
> If you are used to pointing dogs, it will be an adjustment going to a flusher. Good luck with your search.





GrayLand said:


> Thanks, that's what I was wondering about. My grouse hunting sounds about the the same as yours, but my hunting out in Iowa tends to last longer from spot to spot and we hunt for a week or so while there.
> I have pheasant hunted behind labs so I have an inkling about flushing dogs, and as I am getting older, I thought I might try that style of bird hunting for a change.
> Thanks for the insight, Gary





NATTY BUMPO said:


> Dauber has given good advice. A good hunting Cocker has a big motor.
> 
> I'll give you my take on your query. I hunt a brace of FBECS. Here at home, I'll usually hunt spots which are no more than an hours walk. Then drive to the next spot and put the other dog down. They will go for days like this but they are in shape at the start of the season.
> 
> Different story Out West. You will use up dog power a lot quicker in the Dakotas. We always hunt with other people so we can just rotate dogs down through a multi day hunt. Plus that cover will beat up a dog quicker and the risk of injury is higher too.
> 
> NB





dauber said:


> I also go west for 12-14 days of pheasant each year too and our hunts are more in the 1 to 1.5 hour there.
> 
> Last year we were in ND for 12 days with 9 of them being below 0. They held up well.
> 
> View attachment 76657
> 
> 
> View attachment 76658


Grayland you have been given sound advise and examples of the staying power of the FBEC.

Now the cultural 'shock" of changing from a pointing breed to a "[email protected] to the wall flushing spaniel". and would bethe case whether your choice was a FBEC or a FBESS.
Not knowing your standards that you demand and/or feel comfortable with in companion hunting dog. Your next step would be spend as much time as you can with FBEC like minded people that that can demonstrate the training process, structure and philosophy's of developing a proper FBEC.
Having trained many dogs and many people over years the task and goals set be for you, are daunting to say the least. The reason i bring this up is that you have a desire to be successful in this journey, and to be that, you need to understand the pitfalls and factors that are waiting for you.
Information that sound FBEC breeders can supply will be priceless over the next few years. Best luck.


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> *Well still pretty cold and lots of snow up here but I went down to Ohio last weekend to get some training in before trials start up. Nice to be working the dog again! Here's a couple pics. Doing this on my phone.*
> 
> 
> Good to see that you got down to Ohio. Can we assume you spent some time at Flushing Star kennel.
> Are you there for the Cocker trial that is coming up soon?


----------



## CDN_Cocker

I won't be. I may let him handle Jake in the Minnesota trial beginning of May. He really wants to run him in Wisconsin in 2 weeks, he told me I've done an amazing job training Jake on my own and he's a high caliber dog. Don't know if he was just pumping my tires but sure made me feel good. It was the first Jim has seen him since he sold him to me as a fat little pup 2 years ago and he's my first spaniel. I plan on running him in Fisherville (Ontario) may 16-17. I wouldn't mind letting Jim take him to those trials in the states but with my wedding coming up in September I don't think I could afford it. Plus the woman may castrate me...


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> CDN_Cocker said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Well still pretty cold and lots of snow up here but I went down to Ohio last weekend to get some training in before trials start up. Nice to be working the dog again! Here's a couple pics. Doing this on my phone.*
> 
> 
> Good to see that you got down to Ohio. Can we assume you spent some time at Flushing Star kennel.
> Are you there for the Cocker trial that is coming up soon?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great place for Grayland to acquire his cocker pup(Flushing Star Kennel).
Click to expand...


----------



## dauber

Our Smoke made PF dog of the day!

http://www.pheasantsforever.org/DogOfTheDay/Dog-Of-The-Day/Smoke.aspx


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Our Smoke made PF dog of the day!
> 
> http://www.pheasantsforever.org/DogOfTheDay/Dog-Of-The-Day/Smoke.aspx


WOW! Congrats! Great picture of Smoke, too. Love his blaze orange "pants".


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> gundogguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great place for Grayland to acquire his cocker pup(Flushing Star Kennel).
> 
> 
> 
> I think your right Mike and Jim would be the closest to GR I would think.
Click to expand...


----------



## gundogguy

Zeta, War princess battles on to a 3rd series finish and make a 3rd place finish in the march to title continues. At the Mid-Atlantic trial in Outside of Altoona Penn.
It's not a sprint but a marathon!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Go Zeta! How many points/wins does it take to be a FC south of the border?


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

WAY2GO Zeta and Team Wallace! CONGRATS GDG.

She is racking up the wins on a regular basis in tough competition.


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Zeta, War princess battles on to a 3rd series finish and make a 3rd place finish in the march to title continues. At the Mid-Atlantic trial in Outside of Altoona Penn.
> 
> It's not a sprint but a marathon!



Congratulations!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta, War princess battles on to a 3rd series finish and make a 3rd place finish in the march to title continues. At the Mid-Atlantic trial in Outside of Altoona Penn.
> 
> It's not a sprint but a marathon!



Congrats Zeta!! The war is won one battle at a time.


----------



## hehibrits

gundogguy said:


> Zeta, War princess battles on to a 3rd series finish and make a 3rd place finish in the march to title continues. At the Mid-Atlantic trial in Outside of Altoona Penn.
> 
> It's not a sprint but a marathon!



Congratulations. Slow and steady wins the race. Keep up the good work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Go Zeta! How many points/wins does it take to be a FC south of the border?


AKC Field championship Needs Either Two 1st place awards Plus water
or *one 1st place *and *10 points* Plus a water retrieve qualification

Zeta currently has *One 1st place* win and *5 points* plus water qualified in the Open AA. She began her trialing career Sept 2014. If she was in Canada she would be a Canadian Field Champion. She will be in Canada in May.


----------



## GamebirdPreserve

*Mark your calendars!* 
*TWO WEEKENDS ... *
*GREAT EVENTS TO WATCH THE DOGS WORK IN THE FIELDS AND WATER!!* 

*Spaniel Hunting Tests - American Kennel Club* 


*May 23 and May 24 - Colonial Farms Chelsea, MI *


_*Southern Michigan Springer Spaniel Training Club* _


*https://www.apps.akc.org/apps/events/search/index_results.cfm?action=plan&comp_type=HT&event_n umber=2015368701&cde_comp_group=HT%20%20&NEW_END_D ATE1=&key_stkhldr_event=&mixed_breed=N&t2b=N&cde_c omp_type**=*


*https://www.apps.akc.org/apps/events/search/index_results.cfm?action=plan&comp_type=HT&event_n umber=2015368702&cde_comp_group=HT%20%20&NEW_END_D ATE1=&key_stkhldr_event=&mixed_breed=N&t2b=N&cde_c omp_type**=*


*May 30 and May 31 - Colonial Farms Chelsea, MI*


*Great Lakes American Water Spaniel Club*

*https://www.apps.akc.org/apps/events/search/index_results.cfm?action=plan&comp_type=HT&event_n umber=2015704201&cde_comp_group=HT%20%20&cde_comp_ type=&NEW_END_DATE1=&key_stkhldr_event=&mixed_bree d=N*

*https://www.apps.akc.org/apps/events/search/index_results.cfm?action=plan&comp_type=HT&event_n umber=2015704202&cde_comp_group=HT%20%20&cde_comp_ type=&NEW_END_DATE1=&key_stkhldr_event=&mixed_bree d=N*


----------



## JAM

Jeffrey Towler said:


>


Beautiful pup!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Zeta, War princess battles on to a 3rd series finish and make a 3rd place finish in the march to title continues. At the Mid-Atlantic trial in Outside of Altoona Penn.
> It's not a sprint but a marathon!


YAY Zeta! You go girl! Congrats!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> AKC Field championship Needs Either Two 1st place awards Plus water
> or *one 1st place *and *10 points* Plus a water retrieve qualification
> 
> Zeta currently has *One 1st place* win and *5 points* plus water qualified in the Open AA. She began her trialing career Sept 2014. If she was in Canada she would be a Canadian Field Champion. She will be in Canada in May.


Sounds like you may need another pup soon


----------



## N M Mechanical

CDN_Cocker said:


> Sounds like you may need another pup soon



That's what it sounds like to me too


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Sounds like you may need another pup soon





N M Mechanical said:


> That's what it sounds like to me too


The process of due diligence is already under way. One just never knows what will happen. Over the last 35 yrs or so Nancy and I have either had a breeding or purchased a pup every 3 yrs. #3yrs would be when the previous dogs training would be finalized to our standards.

Spring is a ok time of the year to pick up a placement or two, and really expand the time in which a dog may work. Autumn is when we sort out the dogs that can handle real hunting conditions. Real cover strong 1st year pheasants( I would not bother even attending a chukar trial in the fall) Autumn scenting conditions. Chances are we will be looking to purchase a pup. We will want to watch as many bitches as we can during the upcoming fall trial season.
So who knows how it will all play out!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

You wouldn't keep a pup off Zeta? That's what I would like to do a few years down the road if Jake ever gets his FC (and of course if someone wanted to use him at stud if he passed health clearances). Mind you if I'm waiting on that there's probably a better chance I'll end up buying a pup. However, your Zeta is very close to getting that title!


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> You wouldn't keep a pup off Zeta? That's what I would like to do a few years down the road if Jake ever gets his FC (and of course if someone wanted to use him at stud if he passed health clearances). Mind you if I'm waiting on that there's probably a better chance I'll end up buying a pup. However, your Zeta is very close to getting that title!


Excuse me! I do not recall ever saying that we were breeding of Zeta! That is not in the plans as we go forward.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Lol i just thought you might for a pup. She seems like a pretty awesome dog


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Lol i just thought you might for a pup. She seems like a pretty awesome dog


She is awesome! and the fact that we have no plans of breeding does not make her any less awesome. At this stage just very little interest in taking the responsibility that a litter of high end pups demand. If we purchase pup like we did her, life is simple and lovely!

Think about that, she was one of 7 pups in the litter, where are her litter mates? Sire, a Hall of Fame dog, Dam soon to be titled Scottish import. What has happened to the other 6 pups?
Like my wife often says "She is fine Spaniel and breeder picked the right owners for her!!  :evil:


----------



## Gavan

I was shagging in the 3rd. Tough conditions.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> I was shagging in the 3rd. Tough conditions.


Thanks Gavan! "Tough conditions" and you are not even referring to the course! Thanks again for the insight!


----------



## uppower

I need to put together a bird coup. How large does it need to be? Maybe 20-30 birds at a time. Not sure yet I just know I need to get Hank on some live birds for training.


----------



## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> Gotta brag here guys!!! I am super pumped. Jake ran in the Fox Valley trial in Wisconsin today - his first trial experience ever! Out of 35 dogs, Jake was one of 7 to finish the trial. He didn't place but he definitely surpassed my expectations!!!!!!! I'm so proud! Hopefully he doesn't do a 180 and get thrown out in the first tomorrow!



Congratulations!!


----------



## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> Gotta brag here guys!!! I am super pumped. Jake ran in the Fox Valley trial in Wisconsin today - his first trial experience ever! Out of 35 dogs, Jake was one of 7 to finish the trial. He didn't place but he definitely surpassed my expectations!!!!!!! I'm so proud! Hopefully he doesn't do a 180 and get thrown out in the first tomorrow!



Sorry to break it to ya, but Jake didn't make the 3rd, Jim ran only 1 dog in 3rd and that was Spike who took 2nd. 11 dogs made the 3rd and 5 finished. Karen got Smoke into the 3rd but he broke on his last bird. Zac made it thru 2 but didn't get called back for third. Tomorrow is a new day and hope Jake has a good run.


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Gotta brag here guys!!! I am super pumped. Jake ran in the Fox Valley trial in Wisconsin today - his first trial experience ever! Out of 35 dogs, Jake was one of 7 to finish the trial. He didn't place but he definitely surpassed my expectations!!!!!!! I'm so proud! Hopefully he doesn't do a 180 and get thrown out in the first tomorrow!


Oh the emotional roller coaster, that is Spaniel Field Trialing 




dauber said:


> Sorry to break it to ya, but Jake didn't make the 3rd, Jim ran only 1 dog in 3rd and that was Spike who took 2nd. 11 dogs made the 3rd and 5 finished. Karen got Smoke into the 3rd but he broke on his last bird. Zac made it thru 2 but didn't get called back for third. Tomorrow is a new day and hope Jake has a good run.


Good report Steve, Fair and Balanced!

Bets of runs to all of our Forum spaniels today!!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Ah no worries. Maybe I misunderstood Jims text. I'm still super proud of my little guy. I've still got a ton to learn about training and Jim has only had him 2 weeks. Everything else was me so the fact that he didn't get thrown out in the first is a huge win for me hahaha. Excited to hear updates today. Work is going to go by so slow


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Good luck today Steve!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

No luck here. Jake broke on an honor


----------



## michgundog

CDN_Cocker said:


> No luck here. Jake broke on an honor



Bummer!! When is your next one? Unfortunately, the only way dogs will learn the game is through experience.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

He may run in Minnesota on May 1/2 with Jim again. Otherwise it will be may 16 here in Ontario


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> No luck here. Jake broke on an honor



Darn the opportunity That is why it is called a TRIAL... it will try you.
More training is needed Bird work and brace work!




michgundog said:


> Bummer!! *the only way dogs will learn the game is through experience.*


I know what you meant by this, but just to be clear for those that might be following this thread.. the only experience that Jake had was he CAN/May break on an honor. Do to the manners and rules of engagement, the handler is not allowed to correct the dog for the infraction at the trial grounds. 
So the only way for a dog to learn the game is through consistent training 
Experience comes to play concerning scenting, take birds of the nest or producing runners to the guns. If this is a Chukar(?) trial very little opportunity to take runners. Marking is also an area that experience can aid, if the developmental work has been done



CDN_Cocker said:


> He may run in Minnesota on May 1/2 with Jim again. Otherwise it will be may 16 here in Ontario


Wow a number of decisions to be made, Minnesota is a Cocker only trial.
Ontario is an all-spaniel trial,, mostly Springers. 
If I thought I had a hot Cocker I know where I would run me dog.
Best of this spring.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

He's definitely running Ontario. Minnesota is a maybe. Cockers tend to do well up here. The few trials i went to watch last year i found there were a lot of mediocre springers. Cockers are much fewer in numbers maybe 4 in an entire trial but i think they're generally higher caliber because the owners have had to travel South to purchase them. My speculation only of course


----------



## CDN_Cocker

I hope that didn't sound snotty or rude. I just meant the majority i saw aren't fun to watch. I am putting emphasis on Ontario obviously because it's where i live so the next few years the majority of trials i run him in will be here. That's why I'm not overly concerned about Minnesota


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> He's definitely running Ontario. Minnesota is a maybe. Cockers tend to do well up here. The few trials i went to watch last year i found there were a lot of mediocre springers. Cockers are much fewer in numbers maybe 4 in an entire trial but i think they're generally higher caliber because the owners have had to travel South to purchase them. My speculation only of course


I would not want to go to the bank with your assessment of Springer talent.



CDN_Cocker said:


> I hope that didn't sound snotty or rude. I just meant the majority i saw aren't fun to watch. I am putting emphasis on Ontario obviously because it's where i live so the next few years the majority of trials i run him in will be here. That's why I'm not overly concerned about Minnesota


You donot sound snotty or rude at all
Just a little insight concerning 2015. There is a real challenging schedule this year with the National Champs, both Open and Amateur AA
The National Open AA Springer Championships will be held in California. and Then back to New York with client dogs for the National Amateur very soon after the close of the Open AA in California.
A few of the east coast Springer pros will be coming to the Canadian spring trials looking to qualify their dogs for the Canadian National Championships.
They have no interest in traveling to California. The Canadian Nat Champs look very inviting for those in the know, plus the fact they will save some 6000 miles of driving during that 10 day period of time.
Ontario could see some very large trials with some very talented dogs entering. Time will tell.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

I hope so! I'd like to see some high caliber dogs run!


----------



## gundogguy

here is the type of reports one should get from the field.

"Zeta finished trial had a good go. Her 2nd contact she mark on the wrong side of the wind and over ran it 50 or 60 yards and flushed another bird down course. Had to handle her back to the original area of fall. she makes the retrieve just not very clean. ......Handling will kill you every time, She had a good trial."

It is the little things that will kill you. Hie on next week is in our sights.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> here is the type of reports one should get from the field.
> 
> "Zeta finished trial had a good go. Her 2nd contact she mark on the wrong side of the wind and over ran it 50 or 60 yards and flushed another bird down course. Had to handle her back to the original area of fall. she makes the retrieve just not very clean. ......Handling will kill you every time, She had a good trial."
> 
> It is the little things that will kill you. Hie on next week is in our sights.



Very similar report for young Zac on Saturday open. Had to handle no third series. Smoke Saturday wasn't paying the attention he should and I pulled him in the middle of the second. Smoke was certainly "rolling" both days but we need to have a little better eye contact. 

Today in the amateur Zac had a nice first series, first contact downwind with a retrieve exactly like yesterday but he made the mark across a wooded hedge. Next bird on the upwind was once cast and nice long find and nice retrieve. Second series winds picking up and temps 68 and he had a downwind. First find was 10 yards up the course, second was nice find and retrieve. Third series was in some hilly grass cover and Zac made 2 30+ yard finds and a nice 80 yard retrieve in a brushy swale. The second retrieve was shorter but over a hill. 

The end result was we got a bag of Purina Pro Plan to take back to the UP! Guns had some love for the young fellow too.


----------



## gundogguy

Is Purina Pro Plan Like Cracker Jacks get a Blue ribbon prize in every bag!

Is that an Open Blue or Amateur Blue?


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Very similar report for young Zac on Saturday open. Had to handle no third series. Smoke Saturday wasn't paying the attention he should and I pulled him in the middle of the second. Smoke was certainly "rolling" both days but we need to have a little better eye contact.
> 
> Today in the amateur Zac had a nice first series, first contact downwind with a retrieve exactly like yesterday but he made the mark across a wooded hedge. Next bird on the upwind was once cast and nice long find and nice retrieve. Second series winds picking up and temps 68 and he had a downwind. First find was 10 yards up the course, second was nice find and retrieve. Third series was in some hilly grass cover and Zac made 2 30+ yard finds and a nice 80 yard retrieve in a brushy swale. The second retrieve was shorter but over a hill.
> 
> The end result was we got a bag of Purina Pro Plan to take back to the UP! Guns had some love for the young fellow too.
> View attachment 77499


Way to go, Zac and Dauber! Congrats! Nice job!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> The end result was we got a bag of Purina Pro Plan to take back to the UP! Guns had some love for the young fellow too.
> View attachment 77499


BIG CONGRATS ZAK and Steve on the win plus the Guns award. 

Plus some PPP to nibble on the way home.

NB


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Very similar report for young Zac on Saturday open. Had to handle no third series. Smoke Saturday wasn't paying the attention he should and I pulled him in the middle of the second. Smoke was certainly "rolling" both days but we need to have a little better eye contact.
> 
> Today in the amateur Zac had a nice first series, first contact downwind with a retrieve exactly like yesterday but he made the mark across a wooded hedge. Next bird on the upwind was once cast and nice long find and nice retrieve. Second series winds picking up and temps 68 and he had a downwind. First find was 10 yards up the course, second was nice find and retrieve. Third series was in some hilly grass cover and Zac made 2 30+ yard finds and a nice 80 yard retrieve in a brushy swale. The second retrieve was shorter but over a hill.
> 
> The end result was we got a bag of Purina Pro Plan to take back to the UP! Guns had some love for the young fellow too.
> View attachment 77499



Congratulations Steve and Zac!!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Is Purina Pro Plan Like Cracker Jacks get a Blue ribbon prize in every bag!
> 
> Is that an Open Blue or Amateur Blue?



It be an Amateur Blue. 
Thanks all.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Friday report. Tough switch grass cover some was close to shoulder high. Smoke had a rough 1st with Karen, as he was wanting to follow fly a way, but he had a very nice 2nd series and wasn't called back to 3rd. Zac had nice 1st half upwind half down wind. Second was a little tough on second mark when he scented another bird on way and flushed it. All ok but had to handle more than I would like. 3rd series was downwind along a pond. Today we lucked out and had 2 nice finds that he flushed out over the pond and guns dropped for nice 30-40 yard marks. In the end we were very happy with a red ribbon!!
> 
> View attachment 78476
> 
> View attachment 78477
> 
> View attachment 78478
> 
> 
> Now to cook out on the grill and get ready for tomorrow.


all right! all right! all right! Now your rolling, a side note nice to see a trial run in proper spaniel cover!


----------



## dauber

Made it thru 2 series today but didn't get called back for 3rd. He had one retrieve in the tall grass on a low flier he didn't mark and I handled him to, but otherwise was solid but nothing really good. We are giving the Amateur a go Sunday.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Made it thru 2 series today but didn't get called back for 3rd. He had one retrieve in the tall grass on a low flier he didn't mark and I handled him to, but otherwise was solid but nothing really good. We are giving the Amateur a go Sunday.


There you Steve, Amateur stake will thin the crowd out a bit. Rock on Team Dauber!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> There you Steve, Amateur stake will thin the crowd out a bit. Rock on Team Dauber!



On our way home early. We were dog 1 today, Zac had some nice ground work, and real nice find, strong flush down course and bird was missed. I made a mistake and called him in too quick and in the high cover and low flying bird he thought he was going on retrieve and headed out. I should have read him better, let him calm down a bit then whistled him in, instead of using voice. Well 5 weeks until Sudbuy.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> On our way home early. We were dog 1 today, Zac had some nice ground work, and real nice find, strong flush down course and bird was missed. I made a mistake and called him in too quick and in the high cover and low flying bird he thought he was going on retrieve and headed out. I should have read him better, let him calm down a bit then whistled him in, instead of using voice. Well 5 weeks until Sudbuy.


Nice showing out there dauber. Live and learn... right? Travel safe!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Congrats on the second placement. Looks like some excellent cover over there. Nice pix and thanks for taking us along.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> On our way home early. We were dog 1 today, Zac had some nice ground work, and real nice find, strong flush down course and bird was missed. I made a mistake and called him in too quick and in the high cover and low flying bird he thought he was going on retrieve and headed out. I should have read him better, let him calm down a bit then whistled him in, instead of using voice. Well 5 weeks until Sudbuy.


Do Not sweat it Dauber! There are 1000 ways to crash and burn in a All-Age trial.

With real cover, birds that have to be found, birds being shot, and retrieves expected with manners. There is a new way for stuff to happen at every trial that is held! That is why it is called a trial...the game will try you as long as you play. 
Glad You and Karen got home safe and sound!


----------



## Gavan

at New Jersey on the same situation. Sounds like Gavan was a little further out when I tried to use voice to recall him. He had disappeared in heavy cover and reappeared on an airborne flush at least 50 yards out. He sat down and the bird was so far out and everyone was so surprised than nobody shot at it. Until the wing gun decided it might help stay seated to shoot at the bird a full 5 seconds after the flush. Since Gavan couldn't see the bird he assumed that gun had hit it and when i put him in motion by saying No, come, he took off and after hacking him back from his unfruitful hunt of the non-fall we were on our way home. First dog down and our trial lasted about two minutes. OK, seven minutes since it took another five to whistle him back in.  Sounds like you guys had a good weekend with your 2nd place. Gotta love your courage running Zack three days in a row. Congrats and keep it going.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Gotta love your courage running Zack three days in a row. Congrats and keep it going.


Great comments Gavan. Lets save the above thoughts for future discussions.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Great comments Gavan. Lets save the above thoughts for future discussions.



Haha! Is courage really the word you were thinking of?? Or words the start with D or S. 

Now Smoke only ran one day. But running Zac numerous days in a row was part of my spring plan. I really don't believe his chase was a day 3 thing, just the situation that happened on day 3. I believe he really was primed to have his best day again. He got better every series of the weekend. He barely made the 3rd the first day then got lucky with the toughest situation to negotiate and according to judge Lynn Miller he handled it beautifully. The second day he had the "bad" part of the course that tossed out almost every dog that ran there, he made it thru but it didn't look real good. His second series that day was his best of the weekend in my opinion. 

He had been popping too often even in the trials a few weeks ago until day 3. This week he only did once in first series day 1. Now that he has the forward lean going we will be running 2 at the most. 

So I don't think it courage is what I had, it was a specific dog with specific situation we were working thru.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Haha! Is courage really the word you were thinking of?? Or words the start with D or S.
> 
> Now Smoke only ran one day. But running Zac numerous days in a row was part of my spring plan. I really don't believe his chase was a day 3 thing, just the situation that happened on day 3. I believe he really was primed to have his best day again. He got better every series of the weekend. He barely made the 3rd the first day then got lucky with the toughest situation to negotiate and according to judge Lynn Miller he handled it beautifully. The second day he had the "bad" part of the course that tossed out almost every dog that ran there, he made it thru but it didn't look real good. His second series that day was his best of the weekend in my opinion.
> 
> He had been popping too often even in the trials a few weeks ago until day 3. This week he only did once in first series day 1. Now that he has the forward lean going we will be running 2 at the most.
> 
> So I don't think it courage is what I had, it was a specific dog with specific situation we were working thru.


Good strategy Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Gavan

and I found your thoughts on running all three interesting. There are so relatively few Cocker trials I would probably do the same thing. Where I am located I have a lot more options to run my springers. This fall I might consider running Gavan Open and Amatuer on a given weekend if the cover is right. I want to get to work on his FC but I am in the hunt for National High Point Amateur so I need to keep my nose to the grind stone this fall. i will run Open next spring for sure. With my type of springer the cover makes all the difference in keeping them in control. They get "overstimulated" when there is no cover and they can see way too much. Back to back days in no cover would be a bit too stressful. When they are "overstimulated" there eyes look like a pinball machine and they go tone deaf to the whistle. They just know that the bird is over that next hill...


----------



## michgundog

SMSSTC will be holding a Hunt Test, Memorial Weekend, May 23th and 24th at Colonial Farms in Chelsea, MI.



Note**All tests are open to all registerable breeds of Flushing Spaniels, Airedale Terriers, Flat-Coat Retrievers, Curly-Coat Retrievers, Golden Retrievers and Labrador Retrievers, six months of age or older on the day of the hunting test. 



Our daily entry limit is now 35 and our entry fee is $70. The last few years we have had a waiting list to get into this test. We encourage people to enter early to guarantee themselves a spot in the event. Retrievers are eligible to enter but preference is given to Flushing Spaniels.



For details go to:



http://www.smsstc.org/hunttest/



Premiums and Entry forms are available in PDF format. Closing is May 9th.





Hope to see you there,


----------



## dauber

Good points Gavan. If I am learning one thing figuring out this trial game is each dog needs their own " program" to reach their highest potential. Smoke gets to make about 1 out of 10-15 retrieves to keep him in a good balance of focusing on his mark and still paying attention to handler. Zac does best with 1 out of 2-3. What works for one dog can totally screw up the next.


----------



## Gavan

called off of retrieves. If I didn't send him on a retrieve in training or called him back in he would over run the next retrieve by a quarter mile or so, run all over god's creation and then come back and pick the bird up right where it was sitting the whole time. A friend of mine ran him in a trial once and he told me a story about what happened when he called him off a retrieve in training. It sounded pretty much like what I described above.  Oh, and by the way, Badger never broke in an All-Age trial with me handling and he could retrieve anything, anywhere. We had an understanding. I didn't #$%^ with him and he didn't #$%^ with me.


----------



## dauber

Every one is different!! The challenge is figuring it all out. 

I like to say training a spaniel is kindof like walking up a teeter totter and trying to keep it balanced. You need to keep one leg on each side of sufficient control and hard flushing bird finding machine. 

Good story Gavan!


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> at New Jersey on the same situation. Sounds like Gavan was a little further out when I tried to use voice to recall him. He had disappeared in heavy cover and reappeared on an airborne flush at least 50 yards out. He sat down and the bird was so far out and everyone was so surprised than nobody shot at it. Until the wing gun decided it might help stay seated to shoot at the bird a full 5 seconds after the flush. Since Gavan couldn't see the bird he assumed that gun had hit it and when i put him in motion by saying No, come, he took off and after hacking him back from his unfruitful hunt of the non-fall we were on our way home. First dog down and our trial lasted about two minutes. OK, seven minutes since it took another five to whistle him back in.  Sounds like you guys had a good weekend with your 2nd place. Gotta love your courage running Zack three days in a row. Congrats and keep it going.





gundogguy said:


> Great comments Gavan. Lets save the above thoughts for future discussions.





dauber said:


> Haha! Is courage really the word you were thinking of?? Or words the start with D or S.
> 
> Now Smoke only ran one day. But running Zac numerous days in a row was part of my spring plan. I really don't believe his chase was a day 3 thing, just the situation that happened on day 3. I believe he really was primed to have his best day again. He got better every series of the weekend. He barely made the 3rd the first day then got lucky with the toughest situation to negotiate and according to judge Lynn Miller he handled it beautifully. The second day he had the "bad" part of the course that tossed out almost every dog that ran there, he made it thru but it didn't look real good. His second series that day was his best of the weekend in my opinion.
> 
> He had been popping too often even in the trials a few weeks ago until day 3. This week he only did once in first series day 1. Now that he has the forward lean going we will be running 2 at the most.
> 
> So I don't think it courage is what I had, it was a specific dog with specific situation we were working thru.





Gavan said:


> and I found your thoughts on running all three interesting. There are so relatively few Cocker trials I would probably do the same thing. Where I am located I have a lot more options to run my springers. This fall I might consider running Gavan Open and Amatuer on a given weekend if the cover is right. I want to get to work on his FC but I am in the hunt for National High Point Amateur so I need to keep my nose to the grind stone this fall. i will run Open next spring for sure. With my type of springer the cover makes all the difference in keeping them in control. They get "overstimulated" when there is no cover and they can see way too much. Back to back days in no cover would be a bit too stressful. When they are "overstimulated" there eyes look like a pinball machine and they go tone deaf to the whistle. They just know that the bird is over that next hill...





dauber said:


> Good points Gavan. If I am learning one thing figuring out this trial game is each dog needs their own " program" to reach their highest potential. Smoke gets to make about 1 out of 10-15 retrieves to keep him in a good balance of focusing on his mark and still paying attention to handler. Zac does best with 1 out of 2-3. What works for one dog can totally screw up the next.





Gavan said:


> called off of retrieves. If I didn't send him on a retrieve in training or called him back in he would over run the next retrieve by a quarter mile or so, run all over god's creation and then come back and pick the bird up right where it was sitting the whole time. A friend of mine ran him in a trial once and he told me a story about what happened when he called him off a retrieve in training. It sounded pretty much like what I described above.  Oh, and by the way, Badger never broke in an All-Age trial with me handling and he could retrieve anything, anywhere. We had an understanding. I didn't #$%^ with him and he didn't #$%^ with me.





dauber said:


> Every one is different!! The challenge is figuring it all out.
> 
> I like to say training a spaniel is kindof like walking up a teeter totter and trying to keep it balanced. You need to keep one leg on each side of sufficient control and hard flushing bird finding machine.
> 
> Good story Gavan!


Great discussion spanielers. The performance venues really do force one to think "down field" just a wee bit.
Spring trials especially are a conundrum. Light unnatural cover, breeding birds that are running all over the place. You want to to be out there, we alwaays think we have a chance at a placement however for those 4-legged rocket ships, sight hunting can become a real issue.
One thing I always learned that once the dog learned on his own that he could get away with it, training became more rehabilitative than developmental in nature. (I.E withholding retrieves, more volume in your whistle and voice, and more repetition of commands.) I would always rather develop my dog during training sessions than rehabilitate.


----------



## Gavan

One more problem with spring trials are spring pheasants in light cover. Planters have to make every effort to have the bird be there when the dog arrives so they plant tighter, stuff birds in holes and in the the thickest spots on the course. So you have hen pheasants who have less scent as they come into egg laying season planted harder than normal. What you end up with are plants (birds) that are almost impossible to make a good looking find on. If the bird is up and moving a little you look like a million bucks. If it's head is still tucked any dog can look like a fool. That's why I want to know what the cover is like before i send in my entry. In my opinion too much cover is way better than no cover.


----------



## dauber

Good points GDG and Gavin. Certainly is much more enjoyable "developing" a dog vs rehabilitating them. Believe me after all the hunting Smoke had and not all of it at field trial standards, rehabilitating is what we do with him. 

Last weeks trial was fantastic cover, that place is almost all switch grass! 

In addition to the back to back trials at least with the cockers are the back to back to back to back weekends here in the mid west. I think we are only going to skip a weekend in between the trial weekends we run.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Good points GDG and Gavin. Certainly is much more *enjoyable "developing" a dog vs rehabilitating them.* Believe me after all the hunting Smoke had and not all of it at field trial standards, rehabilitating is what we do with him.


Wow you can say that again. I spent 30 yrs Rehabbing gun dogs and pets.
It is a grind in comparison to developing a "blank" slate so to speak. The end result is you have that a dog that is "with you" if you do not have to REHAB.


----------



## gundogguy

Is this what an expeditionary force looks like as it invade Ontario for the Canadian spring Spaniel trial season.

Mike and Juliann Wallace, Salmy Kennels on the march prepare for the siege!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Is this what an expeditionary force looks like as it invade Ontario for the Canadian spring Spaniel trial season.
> 
> Mike and Juliann Wallace, Salmy Kennels on the march prepare for the siege!


LIKE. Good Luck to Zeta.

Looks like a Jones dog trailer?? Top shelf. 

NB


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Is this what an expeditionary force looks like as it invade Ontario for the Canadian spring Spaniel trial season.
> 
> Mike and Juliann Wallace, Salmy Kennels on the march prepare for the siege!


Good luck Team Salmi - especially Zeta!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

I'm pretty excited as I will get to see the warrior princess in action this weekend! My boy is also running in it. I have attached a photo of Team Flushing Star, all except Angus (far left) will be competing this weekend. This will be Jake's second trial so just hoping to get through all series - good experience for him. Should be a good weekend there are a lot of top shelf dogs - many that are already FCs so I am super excited to see some really good dog work. Temps are supposed to stay around 20-24 all weekend too so shouldn't be as hot as the last week has been.


----------



## yooperguy

Good luck to all!


----------



## JAM

CDN_Cocker said:


> I'm pretty excited as I will get to see the warrior princess in action this weekend! My boy is also running in it. I have attached a photo of Team Flushing Star, all except Angus (far left) will be competing this weekend. This will be Jake's second trial so just hoping to get through all series - good experience for him. Should be a good weekend there are a lot of top shelf dogs - many that are already FCs so I am super excited to see some really good dog work. Temps are supposed to stay around 20-24 all weekend too so shouldn't be as hot as the last week has been.


Good luck!


----------



## dauber

Good luck to team Salmy and especially Zeta!! Good luck to CDC too! 

3 weeks to sharpen up for Sudbury! We are heading to the south land and spend a couple days with Gundogguy next week to help get us ready. Mostly we are starting into our summer sharpening season. This is the very end of the spring stuff.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Good luck to team Salmy and especially Zeta!! Good luck to CDC too!
> 
> 3 weeks to sharpen up for Sudbury! We are heading to the south land and spend a couple days with Gundogguy next week to help get us ready. Mostly we are starting into our summer sharpening season. This is the very end of the spring stuff.


Have fun in Gundog Land!


----------



## dauber

CONGRATS to Zeta!!!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> CONGRATS to Zeta!!!


Thanks dauber!

Southwest Ontario Open AA
Zeta 1st place Another Blue!
Nice Job Mike and Julianne!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Southwest Ontario Open AA
> Zeta 1st place Another Blue!
> Nice Job Mike and Julianne!


Another Congrats on the Blue. Everything has to be perfect.

So what needs to happen for her FC title?? She has to be close. 

NB


----------



## yooperguy

Congrats Zeta and GDG!


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Another Congrats on the Blue. Everything has to be perfect.
> 
> So what needs to happen for her FC title?? She has to be close.
> 
> NB


Well not as close as one might think, after all it is no trivial pursuit. It is a long march. Compettion is really tough with dogs that J. Keller and G. Wilson bring to the fray not to mention the other dogs on Salmy Kennels truck. Mike has 20 dogs with in Canada

Zeta has accumulated in the AKC Open AA 1 win and 5 points. To make FC she needs either a win or another 5 points.
Points may be accumulated with placements at trial. 1st place 5points, 2nd place 3points 3rd place 2 points and 4th place 1 point


She has no Amateur AA points at all, she has not run in the Amateur stakes as of yet. That will begin autumn 2015. 

Yesterdays win in Ontario will qualify her for entry in the Canadian National Champs in September and satisfy the "win" requirement toward the Canadian Field Championship CFC. I believe she needs 5 points now for her CFC title.

The Canadian spring circuit is very much like a Mini-national. Zeta will stay in Canada this week and then run at the Central Ontario trial this coming weekend. That will be 4 Open stakes inside of 8 days. It is a grind to find the "last dog standing" so to speak.


----------



## JAM

Congrats Zeta! AWESOME!

Good luck in the upcoming trials!


----------



## Gavan

on Zeta's win! Good luck next weekend.


----------



## The Doob

This is a trek not for the faint of heart!!!

Good Luck Hal.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> on Zeta's win! Good luck next weekend.


Gavan Thanks I know you have plate full as well planning the trek you and Gavan are on, going for High Point AM dog and as you knwo the pieces must fall together. Good training this summer and best of calls this autumn with that gavan dog



The Doob said:


> This is a trek not for the faint of heart!!!
> 
> Good Luck Hal.


Good to hear from The Doob This game can make or break you however if learn to have fun it is grand, the highs and lows. I suppose that is why Spanieling is much fun!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Thanks for the primer, GDG. So she has the blue ribbon , a big step and now can accumulate points in a variety of ways. She is obviously running very well for Team Salmy. Good Luck in Canada.


----------



## gundogguy

The Training field is quiet and serene awaiting the Team Dauber invasion.

Sure to see the "Zac attack" as Team Dauber girds it's loins for the Sudbury trial in Canada. Steve and Karen will have the opportunity to meet and run under two old friends of mine who are judging.
Mike Wallace and Frank Wiseman, Frank owned the "The Big Red dog" Clifford. Zeta's sire...

Chance are we spend mucho time around the fire pit "spanielizing".
really looking forward to their visit.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> The Training field is quiet and serene awaiting the Team Dauber invasion.
> 
> Sure to see the "Zac attack" as Team Dauber girds it's loins for the Sudbury trial in Canada. Steve and Karen will have the opportunity to meet and run under two old friends of mine who are judging.
> Mike Wallace and Frank Wiseman, Frank owned the "The Big Red dog" Clifford. Zeta's sire...
> 
> Chance are we spend mucho time around the fire pit "spanielizing".
> really looking forward to their visit.



Team Dauber is looking forward to the visit! We have much to learn from you and Nancy. The dogs will get some good work and the spanielizing will be invaluable and we love the smoke from a fire!!


----------



## Steelheadfred

Wife's new cat.


----------



## dauber

That should be a rather athletic little cocker Fritz. Trish is certainly passionate about her Am. cockers hunting. Good luck with the little "kitten"!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Where did this am cocker come from Fred? Pretty sure i may have been playing with it at a trial this past weekend


----------



## Steelheadfred

Maddison Cockers, Trish Jackson.

I had pick of two females, and if I was picking for me I would have taken the more aggressive one, but I was picking for my wife and kids and took the lover. The wife lost her cat six months ago she has wanted a Cavalier, this was the compromise, so far she is bold and full of it, but has an off switch my labs did not have at that age, evidence by my daughter reading her a story.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Yup definitely who I saw!


----------



## JAM

Steelheadfred said:


> Wife's new cat.


Beautiful little "kitty"! Congrats!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Fritz, Congrats on the new little hamster. LUV the pix of yr daughter schooling her new puppy.


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Fritz, Congrats on the new little hamster. LUV the pix of yr daughter schooling her new puppy.



Congrats on the new pup or is it a kitten?? Much better choice than both a cat or Caviler King Charles Spaniel.


----------



## michgundog

Rory's first senior test and pass at the SMSSTC hunt test. Good day for Creekside Gun Dogs(J Skiba) all the days of training really shined today. Hopefully, another good day tomorrow!


----------



## Steelheadfred

Congrats Mike, way to go.


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> View attachment 79287
> 
> 
> Rory's first senior test and pass at the SMSSTC hunt test. Good day for Creekside Gun Dogs(J Skiba) all the days of training really shined today. Hopefully, another good day tomorrow!



Congrats and good luck tomorrow!


----------



## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> View attachment 79287
> 
> 
> Rory's first senior test and pass at the SMSSTC hunt test. Good day for Creekside Gun Dogs(J Skiba) all the days of training really shined today. Hopefully, another good day tomorrow!


Congrats! Good luck today!


----------



## JAM

Congrats, Mike & Rory!


----------



## gundogguy

From Central Ontario,

Central Ontario
Zeta 3rd Her third placement this spring!
Sugar 4th

Mike Wallace and Team Salmy finish another fine spring trip to Ontario.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> From Central Ontario,
> 
> Central Ontario
> Zeta 3rd Her third placement this spring!
> Sugar 4th
> 
> Mike Wallace and Team Salmy finish another fine spring trip to Ontario.


The Warrior Princess has had a most excellent Spring Campaign.  

WAY2GO Zeta, GDG, and Team Salmy.


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Congrats and good luck tomorrow!



Thanks you. Little tougher today he oddly failed a retrieve, so no ribbon. He was steady on spring chuckars for 2 days, that I was happy with.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> From Central Ontario,
> 
> Central Ontario
> Zeta 3rd Her third placement this spring!
> Sugar 4th
> 
> Mike Wallace and Team Salmy finish another fine spring trip to Ontario.


YAY Zeta! Great job! Congrats!


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> Thanks you. Little tougher today he oddly failed a retrieve, so no ribbon. He was steady on spring chuckars for 2 days, that I was happy with.


The 2nd day is often a lot tougher for some reason. Congrats on Rory's steadiness. That's great!


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> Thanks you. Little tougher today he oddly failed a retrieve, so no ribbon. He was steady on spring chuckars for 2 days, that I was happy with.



Still nice weekend Mike! Good job.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> From Central Ontario,
> 
> Central Ontario
> Zeta 3rd Her third placement this spring!
> Sugar 4th
> 
> Mike Wallace and Team Salmy finish another fine spring trip to Ontario.



Congrats Zeta!! That was some mighty tough competition there this weekend. Team Salmy showed very well!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Your experiences in the North with Zac and Smoke should strengthen your quest for breed honors when back in the AKC Cocker trials.
> Good Show!
> hal



Yes it will help prepare us for future trials. It was very good to be running side by side with some of the hot spring dogs and see how we stack up. I am always interested to see the best run, then try to figure out how to improve.


----------



## gundogguy

Dauber, CDN Cocker heard of results and placements from the
Can. Open AA last weekend in Ontario?


----------



## dauber

I think it was 2 amateurs. 


Sat, Oct 11, 2014 to Sat, Oct 24, 2015
Central Ontario Spaniel Club
Erin, Ontario
Sunday, June 14, 2015 - Trial #am
Amateur All-Age Stake

1st PHEASANT FEATHERS JAXX OF TAZZMAN
2nd COALS CREEK PRACTICALLY PERFECT
3rd HAWTHORNE'S TESSA
4th PHEASANT FEATHERS OUTLAWED JOSIE

Central Ontario Spaniel Club
Erin, Ontario
Saturday, June 13, 2015 - Trial #am
Amateur All-Age Stake

1st. TARARIDGES CHARGER SH
2nd. FC CFC SUNRISE DANCE OF THE SPIRITS JH
3rd. FTCH BELWIND WILLIE
4th. SUNRISE PICK POCKET

Found it here. 
http://www.dogshow.ca/association/cnsfta?ViewAs=Placements


----------



## gundogguy

Great link Thanks a bunch Good information easy to work with!


----------



## gundogguy

This is a hot prospect This is type of dog that can start or finish a field trial career.

FOR SALE
Layla Bug
One awesome 3 year old.
Layla turned 3 in April. She's ran in 3 US trials with one 2nd and a guns award.
She ran 2 Opens in Canada and had awesome goes against the springers.
Before anyone asks there is nothing wrong with her. It's just very much harder to run her with my busy springer schedule than anticipated. She's a serious contender. Ready to win....
Serious inquiries only 

The video clip was from last June when Nancy and I trained with the seller Mike Wallace in West Virginia.
Nancy set Layla bug up on a nice 60 yard mark and retrieve. Her training is complete and she has all the bells and whistles trained to the highest standards.


----------



## dauber

Lyla is a super little cocker. I saw her run at Nationals last year.


----------



## Steelheadfred

My daughter thinks she's a baby doll.


----------



## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> My daughter thinks she's a baby doll.


Aw! Just to cute! I have done some bucket training but i think i missed that particular technique.
Or is that AC on Ice!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

NICE Looking Hamster, Fritz.


----------



## Steelheadfred

NATTY BUMPO said:


> NICE Looking Hamster, Fritz.



She is a pretty kitty. 

The kids love her and she is in many ways very different than what we are used to. She sleeps straight through the night, straight through 10pm to 7am no issues, she never barks, she rarely wines. 

Around the wife and I she is a model citizen, around the kids she and all that activities, noise, flip flops, she is a bit more wound up. She really learns fast, maybe not a full desire to please but happy to comply. For the most part she is house trained via the crate, we get some excited wetting from time to time, on the comforter in our master the other day somehow earned me a Sunday morning trip to the hotel.

I've been playing the Natures Voice tapes, I've shot a acorn .22 blank around her while she was chasing the big dog, she retrieves a bit, especially if there are no distractions, and really pretty well when I put her on a stake out and work the older dogs real quick then reverse. 

She has been introduced to dead birds and I hope to get some quail soon. 13 lbs at about 15 weeks.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

dauber said:


> I think it was 2 amateurs.
> 
> 
> Sat, Oct 11, 2014 to Sat, Oct 24, 2015
> Central Ontario Spaniel Club
> Erin, Ontario
> Sunday, June 14, 2015 - Trial #am
> Amateur All-Age Stake
> 
> 1st PHEASANT FEATHERS JAXX OF TAZZMAN
> 2nd COALS CREEK PRACTICALLY PERFECT
> 3rd HAWTHORNE'S TESSA
> 4th PHEASANT FEATHERS OUTLAWED JOSIE
> 
> Central Ontario Spaniel Club
> Erin, Ontario
> Saturday, June 13, 2015 - Trial #am
> Amateur All-Age Stake
> 
> 1st. TARARIDGES CHARGER SH
> 2nd. FC CFC SUNRISE DANCE OF THE SPIRITS JH
> 3rd. FTCH BELWIND WILLIE
> 4th. SUNRISE PICK POCKET
> 
> Found it here.
> http://www.dogshow.ca/association/cnsfta?ViewAs=Placements


Thanks for the update I have been swamped with work and have not been talking to anyone or able to make it to any training with the club. I worked 72 hours last week so I barely have time to even sleep lol. Good to see Tessa got a 3rd, she's a real firecracker - little gold cocker. If she isn't an FC already she must be close - I watched her win a trial last year. Great little dog of Bev's. Who owns that first place dog from Saturday?


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Lyla is a super little cocker. I saw her run at Nationals last year.


Layla bug has a knew home, as I understand it. One had to figure it would not take Mike Wallace long to find the right the situation for the little pocket rocket. She is the definition of a Field Bred working dog.
She was just a ball to gun over for the three days i was with her.


----------



## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> Thanks for the update I have been swamped with work and have not been talking to anyone or able to make it to any training with the club. I worked 72 hours last week so I barely have time to even sleep lol. Good to see Tessa got a 3rd, she's a real firecracker - little gold cocker. If she isn't an FC already she must be close - I watched her win a trial last year. Great little dog of Bev's. Who owns that first place dog from Saturday?



Jeff Cubitt I believe.


----------



## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> She is a pretty kitty.
> 
> 
> 
> The kids love her and she is in many ways very different than what we are used to. She sleeps straight through the night, straight through 10pm to 7am no issues, she never barks, she rarely wines.
> 
> 
> 
> Around the wife and I she is a model citizen, around the kids she and all that activities, noise, flip flops, she is a bit more wound up. She really learns fast, maybe not a full desire to please but happy to comply. For the most part she is house trained via the crate, we get some excited wetting from time to time, on the comforter in our master the other day somehow earned me a Sunday morning trip to the hotel.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been playing the Natures Voice tapes, I've shot a acorn .22 blank around her while she was chasing the big dog, she retrieves a bit, especially if there are no distractions, and really pretty well when I put her on a stake out and work the older dogs real quick then reverse.
> 
> 
> 
> She has been introduced to dead birds and I hope to get some quail soon. 13 lbs at about 15 weeks.



Looks like your new pup is on the right path for fall.


----------



## JAM

Steelheadfred said:


> My daughter thinks she's a baby doll.


Gorgeous! And can hunt, too! Doesn't get any better than that.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

dauber said:


> Jeff Cubitt I believe.


Good to hear. He's had some recent tragedy. Jeff's a wonderful man


----------



## uppower

Excited to meet some people and see some great dogs this morning in Rock!


----------



## dauber

uppower said:


> Excited to meet some people and see some great dogs this morning in Rock!



Nice to see you and Hank yesterday! Thanks for your help!


----------



## JAM

uppower said:


> Excited to meet some people and see some great dogs this morning in Rock!


UPPOWER,

We enjoyed having you and Hank! It was very nice to meet you both and hope you'll be able to join us often.


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> UPPOWER,
> 
> We enjoyed having you and Hank! It was very nice to meet you both and hope you'll be able to join us often.


Hey New format looking like a spaniel hitting tough covert great job guys!!


----------



## uppower

Jam and Dauber I don't know if Bob is on here but he had his puppies in the clinic recently and we have had several inquiries about whether he had some left. 
Aaron


----------



## dauber

uppower said:


> Jam and Dauber I don't know if Bob is on here but he had his puppies in the clinic recently and we have had several inquiries about whether he had some left.
> Aaron


Thanks UPpower! Bob says he will call the clinic.


----------



## dauber

Couple pictures of Murphy on his morning walk. His 6 month bd was last week.


----------



## yooperguy

Nice looking pup dauber!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

SWEET spot for a morning run Steve. Including a nice stream for a drink and cool out break. LUV the even white blaze on top of his noggin.

Our Rocket Man has exactly the same marking, including the blue roan coloration.

NB


----------



## yooperguy

uppower said:


> Jam and Dauber I don't know if Bob is on here but he had his puppies in the clinic recently and we have had several inquiries about whether he had some left.
> Aaron


Hey Aaron! Hope things are going well for you in your new locale. Maybe see you in Rock this Summer... or at the TVESSC Trial this Fall.


----------



## yooperguy

dauber said:


> Couple pictures of Murphy on his morning walk. His 6 month bd was last week.
> 
> View attachment 184172
> 
> 
> View attachment 184173


dauber,

Yoopergirl (KK) wanted me to tell you that Murphy looks like Smoke... inside out!


----------



## dauber

yooperguy2003 said:


> dauber,
> 
> Yoopergirl (KK) wanted me to tell you that Murphy looks like Smoke... inside out!


I'd say KK hit that one on the button!


----------



## michgundog

Feeling like "the dog days of summer" this morning


----------



## dauber

michgundog said:


> Feeling like "the dog days of summer" this morning
> View attachment 184376


Hope you had a great 4th weekend Mike!

Ya was toasty up here too, hit 78!! One of the warmest so far this year. I'm going to have to dig out the AC.


----------



## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> Feeling like "the dog days of summer" this morning
> View attachment 184376


The pack is looking good. Hope you are doing well Mike!


----------



## michgundog

yooperguy said:


> The pack is looking good. Hope you are doing well Mike!


Thanks YG! I'm doing well, hopefully be able to make it to Tilden Valley this fall.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> Thanks YG! I'm doing well, hopefully be able to make it to Tilden Valley this fall.


Good to Hear, Mike.

Looks like some nice training grounds 'ya got there.


----------



## yooperguy

michgundog said:


> Thanks YG! I'm doing well, hopefully be able to make it to Tilden Valley this fall.


I hope you are able to attend Tilden Valley. Look forward to meeting you and your dogs.


----------



## dauber

Murphy says "How's this for a placeboard?"


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Murphy says "How's this for a placeboard?"
> 
> View attachment 185012



Hay season really does give us some outstanding new marking exercises along with outstanding factors to really challenge and develop. Some of my best "stand alone marking drills" with diversions and factors take place this time of year.


----------



## GamebirdPreserve

michgundog said:


> Feeling like "the dog days of summer" this morning
> View attachment 184376


Mike,
Awesome photo!  Thanks for sharing it. Hope you are feeling okay lately and holding up with all of your treatments. What a great trooper you are. Keeping you in our thoughts and prayers for strength and wellness.


----------



## sgc

dauber said:


> Murphy says "How's this for a placeboard?"
> 
> View attachment 185012


That's funny!


----------



## gundogguy

Hay is being made next door tonight and tomorrow I'll try to get some pics or vids of Reggie or Zeta have a little work out!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Hay is being made next door tonight and tomorrow I'll try to get some pics or vids of Reggie or Zeta have a little work out!



Nice! My boys looked terrible first day out there, seemed to have tough time with depth perception. Better next time. 

Things are getting tough now, cover getting tall and thick. Gave them a tracking pheasant this afternoon and both struggled. Have some work to do before fall.


----------



## gundogguy

Some great photos From Fishers island New York circa 1928
































This where are heritage and standards began for ourselves and our dogs in the field. And a long and proud history it is!


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Your boys look HOT. The temp here right now "feels like" 92 with oppressive humidity. I had my guys out this morning, first light, for short runs for both, a couple of marks each and then head for the cool creek below.  (I felt like jumping in myself, but didn't.)
> 
> TS and cooler weather forecast for the next few days.  Headed to the gun club tonite.


Yes mighty hot and some very tough conditions, but this is a good way to "challenge" their scenting, pattern, control and conditioning. There has been heavy dews to keep them damp and I carry a bunch of water. I work them in spurts of 20-40 minutes depending on conditions and if we've found the bird numbers and had the performance I'm looking for. 

Woodcock are great birds to work flushers on, they don't hop up on a limb 3 feet above the dog taunting them (they do occasionally give a sucker situation) I've never had one caught with a hard flush which happens with young grouse. Plus they force the dog to move thru the bird to flush it. 

Now young Murph isn't getting any of these birds, he works last in "scrubbed" areas and unproductive areas. He gets an occasional (once maybe twice) tossed in dead pigeon to find that helps him learn where his ground/course is and to keep him looking. 

Now it is about time to get back home and polish the older fellas up for the fall trials.


----------



## gundogguy

Any body heard who is judging Southern Michigan Springer spaniel AA trial?


----------



## JAM

Gundogguy, 

According to ESSFT.COM the Southern Michigan ESS Trials are going to be judged by Steve Beyer &
Cosimo Cristo.


----------



## gundogguy

Thanks Jam,
I had spent some time at the ESS site earlier in the week must have just posted! Thanks again!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Thanks Jam,
> I had spent some time at the ESS site earlier in the week must have just posted! Thanks again!


You're very welcome! 

I'm pretty sure Steve Beyer was the apprentice judge at the very first ever AA trial Bullet and I ever ran which was the TVESSC Trial of 2007. Cosmo Cristo judged the Tilden Valley Trials in 2012. Very nice guys.


----------



## dauber

Smoke running a quartering downwind. He is called off the retrieve and sent later after his next find.


----------



## JAM

Lookin' good, Smoke! Nice job!


----------



## gundogguy

Nice, Smoke and you on the same page, get er done!


----------



## dauber

It's on!! Hunting season is open!! Took the cockers out this morning put on the hip boots and went looking for teal and snipe. The teal out did us today but we did connect on a snipe. Of course 12 year old Dante got the first hunt of the year!!










Zac did well and found a few snipe and I connected on one. It was not a long retrieve, but was very tough as it dropped in the middle of a large patch of wild mint!!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> It's on!! Hunting season is open!! Took the cockers out this morning put on the hip boots and went looking for teal and snipe. The teal out did us today but we did connect on a snipe. Of course 12 year old Dante got the first hunt of the year!!
> 
> View attachment 188734
> 
> 
> Zac did well and found a few snipe and I connected on one. It was not s long retrieve, but was very tough as it dropped in the middle of a large patch of wild mint!!
> 
> View attachment 188735


WAY2GO, Team Dauber!!

Great way to start the season. Good to see Dante still in the game at 12YO and that cover behind Zak looks just like Viet Nam.  I'm sure he had to work at it to make that find on a dead snipe. Nice job. You must be proud of your boys.

P.S. - I went on a "snipe hunt" at camp one time but we didn't bag anything.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Love the video of Murphy! There is something about a watching a young spaniel hunt that is just heartwarming.... they have a different look to them. Maybe its just inexperience, but I like it regardless. Still more play than work in their methodology.


----------



## dauber

Here's a TBT of 2004 Michigan cocker trial and our very own Gundogguy at center gun about to make a shot.


----------



## sgc

dauber said:


> Here's a TBT of 2004 Michigan cocker trial and our very own Gundogguy at center gun about to make a shot.
> 
> View attachment 188895


 I heard he never misses !


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

SPOT ON, Stan. 

And Hal's training tips for us Spanielers are always right on the mark too!


----------



## gundogguy

Stan, even the great George Digweed misses now and then. and I'm not even qualified to carry George's ammunition. 
Though I do know this when i did miss it was not consequential in the dogs judgement. Wray Upper once was quoted in saying about misses, "I would always rather have a bird missed at 50 yards than a bird shot at 20 yards, if you gotta miss make it sporting"!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here's a TBT of 2004 Michigan cocker trial and our very own Gundogguy at center gun about to make a shot.
> 
> View attachment 188895


Thanks, dauber and Karen you got my best side!


----------



## dauber

Fall Trial season is almost upon us. There is Central Wisconsin cocker trial this weekend. Then September 19-20 is the Door County Wisconsin cocker trial team Dauber will be running and JAM will be putting on the Tilden Valley ESS trial. September 25,26,27 is the Euclid Michigan cocker trial in North Adams that team Dauber will run the 25th and 26th. The Fox Valley trials have ESS trials on September 30 and October 1, followed by 3 days of Cocker trials October 2,3,4. I will be there the whole week. The cocker national is in Michigan this year at North Adams October 28-31. This will be our first national to run. 

Plus EUP spaniel camp is the week following Fox Valley. Going to be a full and fun fall. 

Good luck to all the spanielers this fall whether it is hunting or trials.


----------



## gundogguy

Dauber your so correct.Life is about to start getting very exciting. The War Princess left yesterday for North Dakota, well by way of South Dakota. M.Wallace is judging the 1st ever springer trial in South Dakota (Can one Imagine that) this week-end then running Team Wallace in North Dakota the following week. Mike will have 10 dogs in one day and 9 the next. This weekend SD trial will be held at Mark and Sophie's "Day break" Wild bird hunting grounds.
Then back east for a few trials and then on to Nova Scotia in October the Can.National Open.
Zeta is in fab shape and her training this summer has been nothing short of stellar. Even some of the old curmudgeons in Club have sat up straight at training and cast an approving eye! She just out classes every one in the group! Autumn is the best time of year, I trust that you all have a safe and exciting season!!
The path that I'm on is taking a bit of a twist, I'll be chasing diamonds for the next couple of weeks, baseball diamonds
Next week in Dyersville Iowa, playing in the "Field of Dreams" celebrity softball game. Looking forward to seeing Pete and Johnny and Rollie again and then on the Chicago for the final home games of the Cubs season.Will have pictures for sure!

What are the dates for the UP spaniel camp?


----------



## dauber

I believe October 4-10. We plan on one day down in the Grayling area, probably Tuesday or Wednesday. I plan on being there 5th thru 8th. 

Good luck to Zeta and team Wallace.


----------



## dauber

Double post


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Yes it is. Very nice little girl. When she got here first thing she did was run over to my yard board, jump up there and sit down! Dan should be happy with little Belle.


How cool! Love the name, too. I'll be watching for Belle in the coming years.


----------



## gundogguy

Well dauber the trial in Southern Mi was a realty check. Usually I always looked it as 150.00 handler's lesson per weekend...price less!


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## gundogguy

Zeta dogs vacation is over.( Heat Cycle), now back in action next weekend. Two US trials coming up in the east, then on to Nova Scotia for the Canadian National after Canada on to Oregon for the US National Champs.
Her conditioning and training has been good, he Mother and I are looking forward to her getting back into the battle!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Zeta dogs vacation is over.( Heat Cycle), now back in action next weekend. Two US trials coming up in the east, then on to Nova Scotia for the Canadian National after Canada on to Oregon for the US National Champs.
> Her conditioning and training has been good, he Mother and I are looking forward to her getting back into the battle!


Well, girls gotta do what girls do. So now Zeta will get her passport stamped in Canada. 

Best of Luck to The Warrior Princess in the fall campaign.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta dogs vacation is over.( Heat Cycle), now back in action next weekend. Two US trials coming up in the east, then on to Nova Scotia for the Canadian National after Canada on to Oregon for the US National Champs.
> Her conditioning and training has been good, he Mother and I are looking forward to her getting back into the battle!


Good luck Zeta!! Hope some trial "luck" breaks your way!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Zeta dogs vacation is over.( Heat Cycle), now back in action next weekend. Two US trials coming up in the east, then on to Nova Scotia for the Canadian National after Canada on to Oregon for the US National Champs.
> Her conditioning and training has been good, he Mother and I are looking forward to her getting back into the battle!


Good luck, Zeta! Show 'em how it's done!


----------



## dauber

Smoke says glad trials are done for a while


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Smoke says glad trials are done for a while
> 
> View attachment 192278


Good boy, Smoke!


----------



## dauber

Zac says, I was born for this!









So far at Spaniel Camp (13 Springers 4 cockers) woodcock numbers are lower grouse similar to last year.


----------



## dauber

Double


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## sgc

dauber said:


> Double


Nice job Zac; nice shooting Dauber.


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## dauber

sgc said:


> Nice job Zac; nice shooting Dauber.


Haha! Double post not double shot.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Misty Mornings Walk..........

One of the joys of the Spaniel Corner is meeting like minded Spanielers, both on line and in person. I has seen Stan C's Posts (sgc) in various other forums on M-S as well as here on TSC. Then last year, I learned that Stan had a very nice Crestliner fishing boat for sale, just the ticket for my son and his BFF's lake house Up North. The boys bot the boat and it was fun meeting Stan and his family and his Jack. He's an 8 yo FBECS from Flushing Star. We made plans to hunt together last year but it didn't happen.

So we met for breakfast this week Up North. The weather guessers called for a sunny, fine day but they lied. It was drizzling when I left TC and kept it up all morning. No matter, we went anyway and started as soon as there was good shooting light. We hunted some covers not far from a major steelhead river. I thought it might be a good omen when a grouse flushed over head, pitching out of the conifers, as we drove to the first cover. I was wrong. I'm guessing most of the grouse stayed up in the conifers all morning. The wc were flighty and flushed wild most of the time. There were no flight birds anywhere we went; still pretty early for any meaningful flights I think. Jack made a find on a mudbat, Stan nailed him and Jack brought him right back. Almost all the leaves were still up on the trees. We flushed several grouse, most of which we only heard. We hunted different places so that all three dogs had some good time on the ground. The sun finally came out as we broke for lunch and had a fun time telling hunting and dog stories.

I count the day a success. We hunted in some beautiful places Up North. The dogs hunted well doing what they were bred to do. There were no altercations with porkies, skunks, 'yotes. deer, or other varmints. Nobody got lost or banged up in any way. It was all good.  And I hope we can do it again someday too.


----------



## JAM

The springers and I have been out a few times, too. I haven't seen any woodcock and only heard a handful of grouse flushes. Waiting patiently (NOT) for the leaves and ferns to drop. Then it'll be game on!

Love the great pictures and stories to go along, Dauber & Natty. Keep 'em coming!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Zac says, I was born for this!
> View attachment 192407
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great pic of Zak with his doodles and LUV the quote. He looks like a very happy camper to me.
Click to expand...


----------



## sgc

Rod,
Thanks. I couldn't add anything more. It was a great day out in the woods and great company; and I know the dogs loved it. Watching the dogs work, enjoying their enthusiasm and being out in the woods is hard to beat. I'm hoping we can do it all again soon.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> Haha! Double post not double shot.


I thought "double" too.


----------



## sgc

I realized I forgot to mention Rod's two dogs Scout and Rocket (in the picture above). They were a real joy to hunt with and to watch their expertise in the field was a learning experience for me. They are truly hunting spaniels to be proud of.


----------



## dauber

Zac is still having fun at Spaniel Camp! He says "that rock ain't that tall!


----------



## dauber

Even in the rain a few birds are around.


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> On the road again, mama's don't let your babies grow up to be Cowgirls.
> Zeta loading up on the Team Salmy Kennel truck headed for Portland Oregon area and The National Open Champs. 99 dogs entered. Zeta in the lead-off position. 1st brace! The little Warrior princess is schedule to put 15,000 miles on in this her 2nd tour . From here in Michigan thru the Northeast to Nova Scotia then back thru the North East then on to Portland Oregon, then back to Michigan, Yikes i get winded just thinking about all that travel
> .
> View attachment 195663
> View attachment 195664
> View attachment 195665
> These pics from a necessary stop in Colorado. I believe team Salmy has 7 dog qualified for this Championship. Nationals begin on the 19th. Dogs will be well rested and have a chance for a number of training days prior to the trial. Mike Wallace does it right.
> The 1st year of trialing has 2 blues 2 reds 1 yellow and 3 whites (All-Age Open placements) we are over the moon with the way she has run with and against the best ESS's on the continent USA and Canada.


Good luck at the National, Zeta!


----------



## gundogguy

The Doob said:


> This trialing is not for the faint of heart or light of wallet. Good Luck to Zeta!!!!!!


Nice to hear from The Doob. I can only trust that you and yours are having a grand time with Sully dog.
Money being what it is, and it is only important to the degree you do not have it. Over the years I for have spent it just like any one else, on activities that were important to me and Dept of War and Finance (Nancy Jo). Trialing has never bothered my heart..It has stretched my brains on a few occasions, trying to figure out what the little dog has to do to be better. Or trying to figure which judges likes the style of dog I am presenting to them in trial. So during that process, the game demands that the dog gets up to the "plate" as often as possible so to speak so you can build that book on judging styles

When I was much younger I use to spend half my money on booze and broads, and then i would just blow the other half. As I matured and aged I found that I had more money left over if I just spent it on the Sporting life, dogs, and the training of dogs, so though the wallet is lighter anyways.
I was shooting some competitive trap last week and I did reassure my physician that he probably will get most of what i have left in end. Seeing as how the chance of being taken out quickly by a jealous husband has been much reduced by chasing me little dog around than a "deer hunters widows"
Spends your money take your chances.

Hey a hearty Hie-on to forum member Gavan who is in New York starting to day at the National Amatuer Champs. I trust Scott you have fine week in the Empire state!


----------



## dauber

Yes good luck to Scott and Gavan at the NAC!


----------



## michgundog

Speaking of trials and the National Open Championships. I found out today that a puppy my Finn sired that, I sold to a gentleman in UT, won the US High Point puppy with a total of 46 points. he came in third last weekend to qualify for the open and has finished several opens through out this past season. The dogs name is Tuckers Little Bo and from what I understand this dog is the real deal. His handler sees a real bright future for this dog that just turned 2!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> Speaking of trials and the National Open Championships. I found out today that a puppy my Finn sired that, I sold to a gentleman in UT, won the US High Point puppy with a total of 46 points. he came in third last weekend to qualify for the open and has finished several opens through out this past season. The dogs name is Tuckers Little Bo and from what I understand this dog is the real deal. His handler sees a real bright future for this dog that just turned 2!



BIG CONGRATS Mike on that puppy Finn sired. Sounds like one heck of a puppy, talented and mature way beyond his age. That makes a breeder proud.


----------



## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Speaking of trials and the National Open Championships. I found out today that a puppy my Finn sired that, I sold to a gentleman in UT, won the US High Point puppy with a total of 46 points. he came in third last weekend to qualify for the open and has finished several opens through out this past season. The dogs name is Tuckers Little Bo and from what I understand this dog is the real deal. His handler sees a real bright future for this dog that just turned 2!


That's great Mike, what part of the country does this pup run in? 46 points he must have won 9 puppy stakes, wow!


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> BIG CONGRATS Mike on that puppy Finn sired. Sounds like one heck of a puppy, talented and mature way beyond his age. That makes a breeder proud.


Thanks Rod. This pup is going to have one heck of a career. We're looking forward to seeing how he's gong to do in the NOC....


----------



## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> That's great Mike, what part of the country does this pup run in? 46 points he must have won 9 puppy stakes, wow!


He's running with Gary Riddle out in Utah. The owners bought him for a gun dog and took him to Gary for training and he talked them into letting him trial Bo and the pup caught fire.....


----------



## michgundog

The Doob said:


> This trialing is not for the faint of heart or light of wallet. Good Luck to Zeta!!!!!!



Doob, Sully is winning a lot edible ribbons and terrorizing the pheasants in the thumb!


----------



## sgc

Good job Mike.


----------



## Steelheadfred

One for the cat.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Steelheadfred said:


> One for the cat.


The kids house dog gets it done in the grouse woods. Nice pic. Nice work, all around.

NB


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## gundogguy

Cute!


----------



## The Doob

michgundog said:


> Doob, Sully is winning a lot edible ribbons and terrorizing the pheasants in the thumb!


Yup!!!! He is a real "ham and egger"


----------



## gundogguy

Hey Spaniel peeps, does your spaniel hunt objectives or does it hunt to the gun or a little of both?


----------



## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> One for the cat.



That cat needs a hair cut...Nice picture.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

NOTE: THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO POST #3995

Hal,

I'll try to answer you this way. Both mine are only what I'll call "country broke". In the PD world, that's a dog that will "point, back and retrieve". Mine are yard trained, hunt within reasonable gun range at all times; both in the grouse woods or Out West, obey whistle and hand signals, dig into the toughest cover around, driving hard flush, retrieve directly to hand, with a soft mouth. Hunt to the gun, with an eye out for me all the time. They do not "quarter" any cover per se, but will dig into whatever objectives are in their path, never pass up a deadfall, other likely objectives etc. NEVER give up looking for a down bird when I tell them "Dead Bird". Scout has a couple of months with Ernie and he worked him on blinds, which has come in handy, more than once. They don't chase far on wild flushes or missed birds. I have never lost these dogs in the woods, but have spent plenty of time looking for others "lost dogs".

As you know, there are no spaniel training groups within 5-6 hours drive of Traverse City.  And that's a pity, but it is what it is. I would have loved to work them with a good training group. Mine get by on natural ability plus a little amateur training. All of this is mostly already built in by knowledgeable breeders. You can train for most of this in your backyard. And just go gunning and have lots of fun. That's what I LUV about Spaniels!! 

PS There is a hot thread going on over at UJ right now on just what denotes a "Finished Spaniel. Its an "interesting read".


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Hey Spaniel peeps, does your spaniel hunt objectives or does it hunt to the gun or a little of both?



I like the dog that hunts to the gun then learns on its own how much objective hunting to do. So mine do some of both. I would say close to 50% of birds (grouse/woodcock) flushed the track is picked in lesser cover and taken 30-60 yards to the flush. 

Team Dauber is in route to 2 weeks of western rooster wrangling where some hunts will be objective barren, some objective loaded. Should be s good test of our spaniels.


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> NOTE: THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO POST #3995
> 
> Hal,
> 
> I'll try to answer you this way. Both mine are only what I'll call "country broke". In the PD world, that's a dog that will "point, back and retrieve". Mine are yard trained, hunt within reasonable gun range at all times; both in the grouse woods or Out West, obey whistle and hand signals, dig into the toughest cover around, driving hard flush, retrieve directly to hand, with a soft mouth. Hunt to the gun, with an eye out for me all the time. They do not "quarter" any cover per se, but will dig into whatever objectives are in their path, never pass up a deadfall, other likely objectives etc. NEVER give up looking for a down bird when I tell them "Dead Bird". Scout has a couple of months with Ernie and he worked him on blinds, which has come in handy, more than once. They don't chase far on wild flushes or missed birds. I have never lost these dogs in the woods, but have spent plenty of time looking for others "lost dogs".
> 
> As you know, there are no spaniel training groups within 5-6 hours drive of Traverse City.  And that's a pity, but it is what it is. I would have loved to work them with a good training group. Mine get by on natural ability plus a little amateur training. All of this is mostly already built in by knowledgeable breeders. You can train for most of this in your backyard. And just go gunning and have lots of fun. That's what I LUV about Spaniels!!
> 
> PS There is a hot thread going on over at UJ right now on just what denotes a "Finished Spaniel. Its an "interesting read".



+1 and that works for you Rod
Hunting objectives or hunting to the gun are both terms that are thrown around a lot. Especial the hunting objectives.
Hunting to gun really only implies that you have a flushing dog and it covering ground,bracken and thickets what have you with in gun range, doesn't really imply quartering as such. A SPANIEL DOES NOT HAVE TO QUARTER TO HUNT TO THE GUN!
Pointing dog should be hunting objectives but those objective may or may not be in gun range.
Gun range is only a arbitrary measurement . For the Spanieler. For one that may range 15 yards, for another that maybe 60 yards. The type of cover will usually dictate range so whatever your comfort zone might be.
There is no right or wrong answer or description when it comes to hunting spaniels, Unless the dog is constantly under foot (No range or drive as such) or out of control(Beyond gun range)

Considering the concept of a Finished spaniel hunting dog, there are not enough them working to day to hardly set a standard. Outside of active field trialers and a small percentage of diligent hunt testers, I have only been with 2 hunters that held their spaniels to those high standards.

Best of hunts out west come back safe and sound!!

Link to the 2015 NAC http://essft.com/2015nac/callbacks.html


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> +1 and that works for you Rod
> Hunting objectives or hunting to the gun are both terms that are thrown around a lot. Especial the hunting objectives.
> Hunting to gun really only implies that you have a flushing dog and it covering ground,bracken and thickets what have you with in gun range, doesn't really imply quartering as such. A SPANIEL DOES NOT HAVE TO QUARTER TO HUNT TO THE GUN!
> Pointing dog should be hunting objectives but those objective may or may not be in gun range.
> Gun range is only a arbitrary measurement . For the Spanieler. For one that may range 15 yards, for another that maybe 60 yards. The type of cover will usually dictate range so whatever your comfort zone might be.
> There is no right or wrong answer or description when it comes to hunting spaniels, Unless the dog is constantly under foot (No range or drive as such) or out of control(Beyond gun range)
> 
> Considering the concept of a Finished spaniel hunting dog, there are not enough them working to day to hardly set a standard. Outside of active field trialers and a small percentage of diligent hunt testers, I have only been with 2 hunters that held their spaniels to those high standards.
> 
> Best of hunts out west come back safe and sound!!
> 
> Link to the 2015 NAC http://essft.com/2015nac/callbacks.html


Well said Hal! I'm not sure many hunter types have a very good handle on what a spaniel is doing in their pattern. I went down and trained with 4 dogs that are in the NAC (I just heard 3 for sure finished the 4th and have not heard on the other yet) last weekend and most hunters would have thought all 4 were out of gun range. I found it very interesting how each of them solved the crosswind conditions, and all of them a little different. These spaniels are sure amazing animals.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

gundogguy said:


> Spot on marked bird by a steady to wing shot dog. Dogs that have never been steady have never learn how to properly mark. The mark in this video is routine about 60 yrds. This was about 22 months ago in this dogs life, I'll knock on wood here but this dog has never broke and she a faultless retriever on marked birds
> Dogs that are running in to the area fall are simple doing just that running into area. Now if there is doubt about that
> kill a pair and see if the dog marks both birds or even add additonal factors dogs will become confused and shorten up quite often.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Little Cocker that is not steady, never was and never will be owner just wants to hunt. Chases and has a a problem making what would a simple retrieve for a steady dog, you will notice i had some difficulties making the dog believe that I knew where the mark was. She is still at about the 3min mark sure that bird went the opposite direction that we are now headed.
> 
> Steady flushing dogs are so much more efficient than unsteady. I am to light for heavy work and to heavy for light work and inefficient dog is just not as much fun to hunt with. Marking properly saves a whole bunch of time!


I actually wanted to know if she was steady. I kinda of figured because he said mark that she was. But I also know that a lot of people use the term mark loosely. So I was not sure what he meant by mark. I am guessing from his response she was not. Not a big deal I just didn't know if he had gone completely to the dark side.

I do agree with you Hal. A mark is different than a chase. A steady dog that marks learns many things a chasing dog does not. A steady dog learns to judge distance, learns to hold a direct line to the fall of the bird using reference points in the horizon. A dog trained to mark can judge how far it has run and can look back at the handler to judge distance and its angle to the mark. A dog that has been taught multiple marks also learns how to make use of pictures and even more it learns how to use its memory for more than where the cookie jar is at home. There are many more aspects of marking like doing marks over cover changes, over hills and more. I also see scent trailing as part of the steady marking picture. Its about giving the dog the complete set of tools it needs to be a steady dog.

One other advantage to a steady dog. If I choose to I can send the dog while the bird is in the air. Its my choice when the dog goes not the dogs. Would not make a habit of it.

I have seen some unsteady dogs not put much effort in finding the bird once they get there and the bird is gone.https://goo.gl/photos/pfWL9B7SoQBCgYXX6

All that said its good to see Fritz finding value in that little spaniel and that together they are getting birds in the bag.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Doug, at this stage, she is just learning, I've not pushed any obedience, very basic, her maturity is way different than what I'm used to, then again we didn't get her to be another what I'm used to, to be honest, it's been very refreshing, there were times in the last month I wondered if she'd be a serviceable rough shooting dog. My goals are to give her a chance to be a gun dog, to have a great companion for my kids, to have a naturally closer working dog for my kids to hunt over. I assume, if she stays on this pace and progress, I'll get her so she is not a chaser, but not classically steady. It's been years since I've lost a crippled grouse with my dogs, yet they are steady in a duck blind, cause I command them to be. I want them free to move to see a bird go. I was lucky to hunt with a wild bird pro this week, guides Michigan, Montana, Arizona, how he makes his living, on wild birds. Dogs have amazing obedience, hunted over his two setters, his lab, his cocker. But none are classically steady to fall and they move a bit to mark. 

It's good enough for me, that's all that counts, I'll let the birds teach them. I'm busy building hotels, coaching hockey, managing a business, volunteering, I just am want to walk and hunt, I'll never apologize about that.


----------



## mathisep

michgundog said:


> Sorry for your loss. I'm assuming your dog died. Ben has some nice spaniels; post pictures when you bring her or him home...


Will do.


----------



## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> Ahahaha never mind, the spaniel police have their dictionary out.



You should be very pleased that Pippa's breeder is a Spaniel Cop. With out standards the breed as well as all breeds would be dysfunctional in their drive and pack tendencies.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> As a bookend to Fritz's pup Pippa, I got out today for our first hunt of the second season and as we start a new season I always take the oldest dog out for the first hunt. Dante is 12.5yrs old, his hearing and eyesight are both quite diminished, but his enthusiasm is still high. He worked well, wasn't quite as steady as years past (broke on the shot) and didn't make the mark, but he hunted until he found our first grouse of the second season.
> 
> View attachment 198161
> 
> View attachment 198162
> 
> View attachment 198163


I'll add another little bit to the Late Season Hunts theme. This year is the first in recent memory with some decent weather in December up here for bird hunting. Last year Leelanau County had record cold temps and the year before, record snowfalls. The two tracks were snomobile trails after rifle season.

So yesterday promised to be a great day Up North, and it was. The first cover we call "Brush Hog" bc/ it is so thick and gnarly that it really could use some shooting lanes cut in there. Scouty was the first dog down because, like Steve says, he's the older of my pair, and has slowed down a step or two, TG. Its a ~20yo cut, _really thick,_ lots of conifers, giant old beech trees plus oaks, and tons of almost impenetrable briar patches scattered in the open spots. You literally cant see 10 yards in there before all the leaves are down. I rarely dare to go in there before December bc/ you come out looking like you lost a match with a Bengal tiger.  I flushed 11 birds in there right before rifle season, all wild, 40-60 yards ahead. Didn't kill one.

We went in silent, no bells. It had rained the day before so the woods were quiet too, very good. Had a couple flushes far out, as we pussyfooted around the place. I kept Scout in tight. Then Scout flushed this big cockbird out of a big deadfall beech. He went out on my right side and climbed like a F16. The open barrel caught him in the treetops. I dunno if Scouty "marked" him or not, but he brought him right back to me with hardly a feather mussed. I am happy to kill one a day in December in covers close to home.


----------



## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> You should be very pleased that Pippa's breeder is a Spaniel Cop. With out standards the breed as well as all breeds would be dysfunctional in their drive and pack tendencies.



Agree 100%, no different than my hotel guests expectations when they check in. 

Trish had been a great resource. I'm thrilled with her high standards. Does not mean they are my standards I don't have her ability, time, or resources, I'm sure I also hunt vastly different than her, in a different state, differing landscapes. 

One of the reasons I love flushing dogs, adaptability.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Fritz is she field bred or bench? Its pretty hard to lose a grouse. I don't find them to be runners like pheasant. Most of the time a wounded grouse will try to rely on its camouflage. That works with avian predators not so much with a dogs nose.

As far as late season.
Xander and I got into several birds yesterday. Saw a couple on the road as well. I had a chance at one of he road birds. I had parked the truck got out and realized I left my gun home in the front room. I let Xander run down and flush the bird. It flew down the edge of the tree line and then across the road just above me. Could have hit it with my hat.1 hour later got back with my gun and found another bird on the road a mile past where the first one was. I parked up the road about 80 yards came back never found the bird. I hunted small cover pockets in the oaks. Every pocket we went to we found and flushed a bird.


----------



## Steelheadfred

She is field bred Doug, we found birds yesterday too.

If you shoot enough grouse, you're bound to lose a few from time to time, anyone that says other wise either doesn't kill many or is a liar. We all have stories about birds knocked down only to have dog come to grab and they fly off. You are correct though, they don't take it like a duck or a rooster.


----------



## gundogguy

Steelheadfred said:


> She is field bred Doug, we found birds yesterday too.


Not that it really matter's, but I do strive for accuracy when spaniel lore, fact or history are discussed. Thus eliminating any false impressions in the drive by's.... But I thought your pup came from Trish Jackson, a breeder and fancier of American Cocker Spaniels. If so that breed has never been divided as to Field and Bench. I believe Trish is the only person to have made Field Champion and Master Hunter with her Am Cocker in the 70 or so years. Pride (dog) was that dogs name.
I think that and I was told this by very active Cocker dog show exhibitor, breeder and Show judge that only 5 Cockers have made Master hunter title as of now maybe last years results will reflect some added dogs to the list.
In most AM Cocker circles Bench bred would be more acceptable,. Most of the community is anti gun anti hunt any way , Trish of course being the exception.


----------



## I'm with Brandy

Steelheadfred said:


> She is field bred Doug, we found birds yesterday too.
> 
> If you shoot enough grouse, you're bound to lose a few from time to time, anyone that says other wise either doesn't kill many or is a liar. We all have stories about birds knocked down only to have dog come to grab and they fly off. You are correct though, they don't take it like a duck or a rooster.


Its number one reason why scent trailing should be part of every dogs training program. This will give your dog the tools to track and the understanding that if they do it there is a reward at the end of the trail.


----------



## Steelheadfred

I do lots and lots of drag drills, but nothing teaches them like wild birds, especially when you can reward them.

That said, I see a big variance between dogs when it comes to scent trailing wild birds, some is simple exposure, some is more in my opinion, so far with Pips, she seems to have a decent nose, then again I'm cherry picking spots and conditions, but as she matures, she'll need to demonstrate across all conditions.


----------



## Steelheadfred

gundogguy said:


> Not that it really matter's, but I do strive for accuracy when spaniel lore, fact or history are discussed. Thus eliminating any false impressions in the drive by's.... But I thought your pup came from Trish Jackson, a breeder and fancier of American Cocker Spaniels. If so that breed has never been divided as to Field and Bench. I believe Trish is the only person to have made Field Champion and Master Hunter with her Am Cocker in the 70 or so years. Pride (dog) was that dogs name.
> I think that and I was told this by very active Cocker dog show exhibitor, breeder and Show judge that only 5 Cockers have made Master hunter title as of now maybe last years results will reflect some added dogs to the list.
> In most AM Cocker circles Bench bred would be more acceptable,. Most of the community is anti gun anti hunt any way , Trish of course being the exception.


Pride is her grandma. Her mom was at the nationals this year, only ACS in the field of ECS. I have to admit, she's matured into a game little dog, but has so much to learn still, very different time table to my labs, or my buddies ecs.


----------



## gundogguy

okie dokie we got what is marking and what is not marking out of the way! Any thoughts or questions before we move on.


----------



## gundogguy

A little news from Ohio, Zeta girl takes a 3rd against 40+ dog entry. She now needs a 4th place or better finish to make Open Field Champion


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> A little news from Ohio, Zeta girl takes a 3rd against 40+ dog entry. She now needs a 4th place or better finish to make Open Field Champion
> View attachment 199136


Congrats, Team Zeta! Nice job!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> A little news from Ohio, Zeta girl takes a 3rd against 40+ dog entry. She now needs a 4th place or better finish to make Open Field Champion
> View attachment 199136


Excellent! Home Cookin' is the Best.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> A little news from Ohio, Zeta girl takes a 3rd against 40+ dog entry. She now needs a 4th place or better finish to make Open Field Champion
> View attachment 199136


Zeta was looking good yesterday! Congrats on the 3rd!! It was good spaniel cover.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Zeta was looking good yesterday! Congrats on the 3rd!! It was good spaniel cover.
> 
> View attachment 199209


Zeta and Nancy went to the third on Sunday In the Amateur AA and finished. No cigar! A good first run for the both of them together in an AA. Break time!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta and Nancy went to the third on Sunday In the Amateur AA and finished. No cigar! A good first run for the both of them together in an AA. Break time!


That's a good weekend for Zeta. It was nice to see Nancy and Zeta on Saturday. 

I ran Zac on Saturday in the cocker open. He went out in the second on a long retrieve across both courses in the switch grass. The other handler and dog and second mowed path (for the gunner) along with the scent of a runner were too many factors for him. I am quite pleased with the improvement of his downwind pattern in the second. Now I need to improve my handling and pace to match and we will become a tougher competitor. 
He did make a really nice long retrieve on a wing tipped runner in the first but his downwind pattern in the first was too tight. We are on trialing break as well until April when we will hit a few spring weekends. Back to the grouse now!


----------



## mathisep

Ended up bringing home this new dog from Ben Martin. She's older than I was originally looking for but has a great nose, big and powerful compared to my last female. She's been an outdoor dog for 6 years but appears to have made the transition to living in the house in just over a week. Great personality and very quiet. Looking forward to getting in some work with her this winter.


----------



## gundogguy

mathisep said:


> View attachment 199632
> Ended up bringing home this new dog from Ben Martin. She's older than I was originally looking for but has a great nose, big and powerful compared to my last female. She's been an outdoor dog for 6 years but appears to have made the transition to living in the house in just over a week. Great personality and very quiet. Looking forward to getting in some work with her this winter.


There you go the absolute best way to go. Congrats on your decision!!


----------



## dauber

mathisep said:


> View attachment 199632
> Ended up bringing home this new dog from Ben Martin. She's older than I was originally looking for but has a great nose, big and powerful compared to my last female. She's been an outdoor dog for 6 years but appears to have made the transition to living in the house in just over a week. Great personality and very quiet. Looking forward to getting in some work with her this winter.



Great! I've done similar 3 times and all 3 dogs were fantastic family dogs and hunters. Plus Ben will be a great resource for you.


----------



## Steelheadfred

Congrats


----------



## JAM

mathisep said:


> View attachment 199632
> Ended up bringing home this new dog from Ben Martin. She's older than I was originally looking for but has a great nose, big and powerful compared to my last female. She's been an outdoor dog for 6 years but appears to have made the transition to living in the house in just over a week. Great personality and very quiet. Looking forward to getting in some work with her this winter.


Congrats!


----------



## gundogguy

Years ago I was looking for additional dog talent for my string of dogs used at the shoot I managed in Three Rivers. Did not need much just easy going dog that love to run and retrieve.
I acquired a 18 month male named Alex, as I did my research i discovered that he would also make a very nice line breeding stud dog for at 2 of my girls that we were planning on breeding. Now this
Alex dog had very little training and had never been shot over,however could he flat run he was truly amazing.
Well long story short 18 months later Alex dog made FC and AFC and continue for the next 5 years being in the top 5 in in country. Also provided me with some great pups 3 of which went to make Champion as well.
Acquiring that older dog can have very







positive affects.
Never have had a dog so powerful as this pet dog reject. You see he was just to much for the young family that had him and they were looking for a hunting home to place in.Knowing the breeder I offer them twice the puppie price they paid. They dumbfounded they they would to give him away . Well Alex came home to become a legend in our hearts and minds. He literally is the dog that made my wife and me the dog trainers we are today.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Years ago I was looking for additional dog talent for my string of dogs used at the shoot I managed in Three Rivers. Did not need much just easy going dog that love to run and retrieve.
> I acquired a 18 month male named Alex, as I did my research i discovered that he would also make a very nice line breeding stud dog for at 2 of my girls that we were planning on breeding. Now this
> Alex dog had very little training and had never been shot over,however could he flat run he was truly amazing.
> Well long story short 18 months later Alex dog made FC and AFC and continue for the next 5 years being in the top 5 in in country. Also provided me with some great pups 3 of which went to make Champion as well.
> Acquiring that older dog can have very
> View attachment 199949
> positive affects.
> Never have had a dog so powerful as this pet dog reject. You see he was just to much for the young family that had him and they were looking for a hunting home to place in.Knowing the breeder I offer them twice the puppie price they paid. They dumbfounded they they would to give him away . Well Alex came home to become a legend in our hearts and minds. He literally is the dog that made my wife and me the dog trainers we are today.


Great story, Hal. You were in the right place at the right time. It was meant to be. 

To have a dog make his FLD CHs so quickly and then stay in the top tier of FT dogs in the country for so long, put you and yr kennel's name solidly up in the national headlights. Very nice picture of a sharp looking ESS and his hardware too. THANKS for posting up interesting this bit of FT history.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Great story, Hal. You were in the right place at the right time. It was meant to be.
> 
> To have a dog make his FLD CHs so quickly and then stay in the top tier of FT dogs in the country for so long, put you and yr kennel's name solidly up in the national headlights. Very nice picture of a sharp looking ESS and his hardware too. THANKS for posting up interesting this bit of FT history.
> 
> NB


Well when Forum member Masyisep (spell) posted the photo of the dog he acquired from Ben & Rita Martin, it got me to thinking about Alex dog and all the help that Ben & Rita gave Nancy and I back in day with our little guy I just could help but share some of the information about our experiences. saw Ben last fall at a Southern Mich Cocker trial, so he has branched out and is doing well. More folks should look at a older established dog instead going the puppy route. Save tons of time and mysteries are not so involved.


----------



## dauber

Dante, Zac, Smoke and Murphy wish all the Spaniel Corner followers a Merry Christmas!


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## Steelheadfred

Merry Christmas Steve and Karen and the rest of you.


----------



## dauber

Murphy is one year old today. The little fella has grown up well so far, he is maturing a little slower than Zac did but is catching up now. He is about 30# now very bold and hard going. Our training right now is going thru steadying so most other training is secondary. Saying that we are still working on his ground work, and marking. Hopefully we have all these building blocks in place when the snow flies so we can be ready to progress this spring. 

On his way home









Training yesterday. Here he is coming in for a flush that he has to scent while I am positioned to see bird. The next pic is him after flush. 

















Here is another flush and after flush. 

















I think we are going to have some fun with him!!


----------



## Steelheadfred

Happy birthday Murphy, this is the Murphy I hunted with today, a little different, but did a great job.


----------



## gundogguy

Great that you are building manners and refinements now instead of waiting. Always better early than later when it comes to installing the basics, which steadiness is nothing more than a basic. This late and long lasting fall weather is a real god send for a pup at this stage of his training.There will be plenty of time for hunting with such a talented pup. Make him proper as Brits always say





dauber said:


> Murphy is one year old today. The little fella has grown up well so far, he is maturing a little slower than Zac did but is catching up now. He is about 30# now very bold and hard going. Our training right now is going thru steadying so most other training is secondary. Saying that we are still working on his ground work, and marking. Hopefully we have all these building blocks in place when the snow flies so we can be ready to progress this spring.
> 
> On his way home
> View attachment 200354
> 
> 
> Training yesterday. Here he is coming in for a flush that he has to scent while I am positioned to see bird. The next pic is him after flush.
> View attachment 200359
> 
> View attachment 200356
> 
> 
> Here is another flush and after flush.
> View attachment 200357
> 
> View attachment 200358
> 
> 
> I think we are going to have some fun with him!!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Great that you are building manners and refinements now instead of waiting. Always better early than later when it comes to installing the basics, which steadiness is nothing more than a basic. This late and long lasting fall weather is a real god send for a pup at this stage of his training.There will be plenty of time for hunting with such a talented pup. Make him proper as Brits always say


A MILESTONE - 5000 POSTS

So, bopping around M-S this morning I noticed that I have just registered Post Number 5000 on Michigan Sportsman. Have been around for awhile. I have many and varied interests in Outdoor Michigan topics but The Spaniel Corner, and now The Spaniel Corner II is "home" for me. I always go right here first, whenever I log on.

So, I want to say Thanks to the guys and gals who contribute reports from the field and trials, pics, tricks and tips about all things Spaniel. IMHO, the very best forum in the whole website. And a special shout out to our very own pro trainer GDG. This place is truly "special" in my not-so humble opinion. 

And ALL THE BEST to all the spaniel folk for 2016.

Rod


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> A MILESTONE - 5000 POSTS
> 
> So, bopping around M-S this morning I noticed that I have just registered Post Number 5000 on Michigan Sportsman. Have been around for awhile. I have many and varied interests in Outdoor Michigan topics but The Spaniel Corner, and now The Spaniel Corner II is "home" for me. I always go right here first, whenever I log on.
> 
> So, I want to say Thanks to the guys and gals who contribute reports from the field and trials, pics, tricks and tips about all things Spaniel. IMHO, the very best forum in the whole website. And a special shout out to our very own pro trainer GDG. This place is truly "special" in my not-so humble opinion.
> 
> And ALL THE BEST to all the spaniel folk for 2016.
> 
> Rod


Hi Rod,

I've read several of your posts on other MS threads, thanks for always bringing your prospective on the outdoors here in Michigan. You certainly have a wealth of knowledge and never hesitate to share. Thanks again.


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> A MILESTONE - 5000 POSTS
> 
> So, bopping around M-S this morning I noticed that I have just registered Post Number 5000 on Michigan Sportsman. Have been around for awhile. I have many and varied interests in Outdoor Michigan topics but The Spaniel Corner, and now The Spaniel Corner II is "home" for me. I always go right here first, whenever I log on.
> 
> So, I want to say Thanks to the guys and gals who contribute reports from the field and trials, pics, tricks and tips about all things Spaniel. IMHO, the very best forum in the whole website. And a special shout out to our very own pro trainer GDG. This place is truly "special" in my not-so humble opinion.
> 
> And ALL THE BEST to all the spaniel folk for 2016.
> 
> Rod


Natty,Correctomundo, SCll is the kind of forum that fills the void on information or misinformation about our little Spaniel dogs. It is a place where Newbi's and craggy old veterans can learn about the dogs that interest them the most. Thank goodness there are differences between the styles of sporting dogs, Spaniel, Pointing, and Retriever, there is some thing for every one. However here at the Corner, discussion can be centered on the little flushing dogs and that is a good thing. What with descriptive terminology and definitions that many times just do not apply to the Pointing or Retriever dog world.

Now concerning special shout out from Natty to me, GDG After some 30 yrs i have relinquished my Pro status in the dog training world. The last day of my paid to train business came on 12- 14- 2014. I am reestablishing my Amateur status and have not and will not be taking dogs own by others for training. This will allow me to run dogs in the Amateur AA stakes and of course the Open AA
And as usual I if will not be accepting any payment for advice and council offered here at the Corner..LOL
Good Spanieling, Happy New Year and see you at the "Corner"


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Now concerning special shout out from Natty to me, GDG After some 30 yrs i have relinquished my Pro status in the dog training world. The last day of my paid to train business came on 12- 14- 2014. I am reestablishing my Amateur status and have not and will not be taking dogs own by others for training. This will allow me to run dogs in the Amateur AA stakes and of course the Open AA
> And as usual I if will not be accepting any payment for advice and council offered here at the Corner..LOL
> Good Spanieling, Happy New Year and see you at the "Corner"


GDG, Congratulations on yr retirement from the pro ranks. But we know you will be kept busy campaigning the Warrior Princess to her Championship. I have no doubt she will get there, with the start she has made. Just a super Field Bred Springer.

And as far as remuneration for your sage "advice and council" here on TSC II, those gems are "priceless" anyhow and very much appreciated by all Spanielers. 

Hie On!!


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> GDG, Congratulations on yr retirement from the pro ranks. B
> 
> 
> 
> Hie On!!


Not unlike many folks I took a few years of contemplation to finalize the decision that ended my career as a Journeyman Pro. Having worked and trained with every imaginable sporting breed of dog over years was pleasurable and profitable.
Years ago when I decided I wanted to do this sort of work I made the decision of being an all-rounder, vs being a Circuit Pro campaigning dogs in trial. I trialed when i wanted to not because I had to. The thought of having to become a road warrior and force my self to travel just did not sit well with me at all. When I watch many of my good friends and fellow dog trainers having to leave home every Thur or Friday for a Saturday trial, then run dogs all day Saturday and drive back home or on to the next event, that does not look very enticing. I truly love the laboratory of my training grounds and the work that I could do there, building solid gun dogs, instead of spending time behind a windshield. My hats are off to men and women that do sort work traveling the country side looking for that next placement.

Many of us have seen the change in land use,how as a young man pheasants and ducks and grouse were hunted in a particular area and do to urban sprawl those areas have been lost forever. This was the issue that I wrestled with the most during the last years, was that when I took down my shingle, lands that had provided a safe place to train and develop proper shooting dogs would be lost forever. 1000's of Gundogs over years were develop here, countless all-breed hunt test dogs and their owners, and a number of FC & AFC Spaniels and 1 NFC Spaniel dog.

The last year has certainly been a different pace, but a thrill ride none the less, and for the love of dogs sure am looking forward to the New Year. I trust you all have a Happy 2016. See you at the "The Corner'
Hie-On!
Hal


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Not unlike many folks I took a few years of contemplation to finalize the decision that ended my career as a Journeyman Pro. Having worked and trained with every imaginable sporting breed of dog over years was pleasurable and profitable.
> Years ago when I decided I wanted to do this sort of work I made the decision of being an all-rounder, vs being a Circuit Pro campaigning dogs in trial. I trialed when i wanted to not because I had to. The thought of having to become a road warrior and force my self to travel just did not sit well with me at all. When I watch many of my good friends and fellow dog trainers having to leave home every Thur or Friday for a Saturday trial, then run dogs all day Saturday and drive back home or on to the next event, that does not look very enticing. I truly love the laboratory of my training grounds and the work that I could do there, building solid gun dogs, instead of spending time behind a windshield. My hats are off to men and women that do sort work traveling the country side looking for that next placement.
> 
> Many of us have seen the change in land use,how as a young man pheasants and ducks and grouse were hunted in a particular area and do to urban sprawl those areas have been lost forever. This was the issue that I wrestled with the most during the last years, was that when I took down my shingle, lands that had provided a safe place to train and develop proper shooting dogs would be lost forever. 1000's of Gundogs over years were develop here, countless all-breed hunt test dogs and their owners, and a number of FC & AFC Spaniels and 1 NFC Spaniel dog.
> 
> The last year has certainly been a different pace, but a thrill ride none the less, and for the love of dogs sure am looking forward to the New Year. I trust you all have a Happy 2016. See you at the "The Corner'
> Hie-On!
> Hal


Team Dauber wishes another "well paced" year for you and Nancy! We will be watching results to see how Zeta is doing!

Hal has been very influential in our gundog training over many years. We still employ methods learned in the early 90's. Thank you for all the energy and passion you have had for the dogs for many years! 

Team Dauber had another great year training, hunting and trialing. Thanks to everyone that helped out along the way and we wish everyone a great 2016!!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Team Dauber wishes another "well paced" year for you and Nancy! We will be watching results to see how Zeta is doing!
> 
> Hal has been very influential in our gundog training over many years. We still employ methods learned in the early 90's. Thank you for all the energy and passion you have had for the dogs for many years!
> 
> Team Dauber had another great year training, hunting and trialing. Thanks to everyone that helped out along the way and we wish everyone a great 2016!!
> 
> View attachment 200821


HAPPY NEW YEAR to all the Spaniel folk.

Make 2016 your Best Year Ever. 

Team Pocket Rocket


----------



## N M Mechanical

gundogguy said:


> Natty,Correctomundo, SCll is the kind of forum that fills the void on information or misinformation about our little Spaniel dogs. It is a place where Newbi's and craggy old veterans can learn about the dogs that interest them the most. Thank goodness there are differences between the styles of sporting dogs, Spaniel, Pointing, and Retriever, there is some thing for every one. However here at the Corner, discussion can be centered on the little flushing dogs and that is a good thing. What with descriptive terminology and definitions that many times just do not apply to the Pointing or Retriever dog world.
> 
> Now concerning special shout out from Natty to me, GDG After some 30 yrs i have relinquished my Pro status in the dog training world. The last day of my paid to train business came on 12- 14- 2014. I am reestablishing my Amateur status and have not and will not be taking dogs own by others for training. This will allow me to run dogs in the Amateur AA stakes and of course the Open AA
> And as usual I if will not be accepting any payment for advice and council offered here at the Corner..LOL
> Good Spanieling, Happy New Year and see you at the "Corner"


Congrats on the retirement which means you will be doing exactly what you want. I sure have enjoyed and hold dearly the advice you have given


----------



## dauber

Murph is 13 months and about 30#. Turning into a very nice young fella.


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## gundogguy

A little Tennessee bird work for Zeta girl! Super cover for sure!


----------



## dauber

Good luck Zeta!


----------



## gundogguy

Though luck has nothing to do with it, she is in whoaful shape. Zeta dog is back on the truck getting back in shape she is 10 day to 2 weeks away from being able to run properly 1st series she looked good. 2nd series not so good.
now as long as she does not come in heat Missouri in 3 weeks is her next stop, then back to east coast for the spring circuit.


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## sgc

Nice looking crew Dauber.


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## gundogguy

If you ever wonder what an UK Spaniel Trial looks like. Lets follow Ian Openshaw and his dog Theo




Factors and conditions galore! Most of the Brits,Scotsman, and Welshman I have ever met have one leg longer than the other!


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Watching that video made me wonder something. I notice UK spaniels tend to keep their nose glued to the ground. You don't see that as much here. I know my guy certainly doesn't unless he hits an area that was holding something and he's zeroing in on it. When running he's using both ground scent and air scent. The UK dogs though have their nose down from the start. Any insight as to the reason there is this difference?


----------



## sgc

Good question CDN_C. I've also wondered about this because I would say my cocker tends to run more with his nose to the ground.


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Watching that video made me wonder something. I notice UK spaniels tend to keep their nose glued to the ground. You don't see that as much here. I know my guy certainly doesn't unless he hits an area that was holding something and he's zeroing in on it. When running he's using both ground scent and air scent. The UK dogs though have their nose down from the start. Any insight as to the reason there is this difference?





sgc said:


> Good question CDN_C. I've also wondered about this because I would say my cocker tends to run more with his nose to the ground.


1st of all the Vid is from the Springer National Champs. Some breed differences are at work here, you both have FB Cockers. Secondly training techniques are different. I would doubt the Openshaw has ever planted a training bird for that dog and thirdly dogs that run high headed while appreciated here in North America are not in the UK. The fine UK bred American field champ and stud dog Bricksclose Matchwood, Badger, was sold as young dog and sent to America just for his high headed big running style. He made his AKC championship by winning 5 trials in 5 weeks. Badger was inducted into the Bird Dog hall of Fame 2011.

Good that you both notice the dogs style, I would say the judges did well also they like much. Whether a dog runs high or low they still have to find them, flush them, and retrieve them, with manners...


----------



## gundogguy

Natty Bumpo shared on another thread..... Just loved that third clip of the gang of Cockers and Springers on the hill above that pond. I think I counted somewhere over 30 ECS and ESS holding steady for "the word" from master Paul to GO. Pure Joy. What a hoot.......

It brought back a memory from our visit to Glencoe nearly a decade ago. We drove to NoDak to pick up our new pup Rocky boy. I was able to spend an afternoon with Paul on their training grounds. Native pheasants and sharps and I know they used some pen raised birds, chuckers( ?), too. A beautiful place high above the Missouri river.

So we arrived shortly after lunch, met Vicky and our new pup, and then Paul arrived in a cloud of dust, driving a Gator with a gang of ECS and ESS in tow, two handfuls at least. But after a quick look around one dog was missing. The missing spaniel was a FC ESS in for some summer training. Paul thought he had left him out on the training grounds at HUP. So Vicky and Lynn backtracked one way and I went with Paul around the other way. Paul brought some other dogs along to work while we looked for the missing Champ. So after probably a half hour at least, we came upon Champ at HUP right where Paul had gone off and continued to work the other dogs. I'll bet Champ was sitting there, right where Paul had told him to, for _at least _an hour before we found him. So Paul never blinked an eye, simply added Champ back to the pack, worked more dogs as we walked along flushing wild birds, and we arrived back at the kennels with all spaniels accounted for.  HUP means HUP!

I must have asked a million questions about training and hunting spaniels that day and Paul and Vicky were wonderful hosts. They had a wonderful little spaniel primer which I still peruse to this day. I remember it like it was yesterday.

Rod You are extremely fortunate to be to acquire a hunting Spaniel from Glencoe Kennels. I know there have been a few that Paul and Vickie have allowed to go hunting homes however by and large their dogs whether they own or co-own go to trialing families only. It is that culture that they reared and trained their dog for.
Robert Polmaise a noted all breed trainer in the UK shared a very interesting video clip on another forum recently. Of what the that culture is really all about. In the clip Ian Oppenshaw, David Lissett, and Mike Forbes give some wonderful in sights to the Spanieling culture. These 3 men stand at the pinnacle of Spanieling in the UK. Never forget all of our blood in our dogs comes from that small island. and because of the fact that there are spaniels running here and across the pond that the breed keeps reaching new heights. For some you may want to listen to the clip a couple of times because of the heavy accents.


----------



## dauber

Very interesting GDG. It was hard for me to understand even after 3 times but I think I get the gist of it. It certainly does take the whole community to successfully hold trials. 

As long as we're on the Glenco topic here is a quote from Paul in his latest write up of last years NFC...
"Training cockers is all about creating a balancing act, on one hand allowing them to grow into who they are and at the same time, keep them on track and pointed in the right direction." This brings us back to the Drive/pack discussion, plus something Paul and GDG are very big on, they are all different so train the one you have. 

Here is the full write up from the NFC's owner then one from Paul. 

http://www.glencoekennels.net/dogs/Training/AIKANEHOKULANIbyJohnBishop.docx

http://www.glencoekennels.net/dogs/Training/AikaneHokulaniLANIPaul's111.docx


----------



## JAM

I'm enjoying all the videos and the essays about NFC Lani and the rest of the cockers. I have to get up early enough to be done watching the videos by 8 am (data usage allotment :-( ) so just saw them this morning. I have the Ian Openshaw training videos. My step daughter married a Brit, Chris. I couldn't understand Ian very well so had Chris watch the video in the hope of him translating. He said he could understand what he was saying but had no idea what Ian was talking about! LOL

I have a question about place board training. I haven't done a real good job of making the best use of it but have used it. I like McGagh/Dauber's steadiness training methods off the board. So... Yesterday I gave it a go. I ran into a problem and quit. 

The pigeon I used must not have been a strong flyer. I had Jeepers on the place board, dizzied the pigeon and sent the dog. The pigeon flushed, Jeepers chased and (UGH!) the bird came down and Jeepers caught it. I praised him for bringing it back to me but knew the lesson didn't go as planned so I quit. I'm afraid to give him more birds and have him chase and CATCH them. 

I attended a spaniel training session put on by Joe DeMarkis. He used a "brush pile tunnel" where the dog was on the place board, the bird was dizzied on the far side of the tunnel. The dog was sent from the board, the handler was near the dizzied bird on the far side of the tunnel; the dog flushed the bird and still could be stopped from chasing by the handler. I was thinking about doing this although I don't have any kind of tunnel.

So... Do you think I should just continue with the place board, dizzied pigeon routine even if he happens to catch it after a chase? What do you fellows think? Tunnel or let chase?

I hesitated to post this but then decided I'm more interested in help than worrying about the consequences.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Very interesting GDG. It was hard for me to understand even after 3 times but I think I get the gist of it. It certainly does take the whole community to successfully hold trials.
> 
> As long as we're on the Glenco topic here is a quote from Paul in his latest write up of last years NFC...
> "Training cockers is all about creating a balancing act, on one hand allowing them to grow into who they are and at the same time, keep them on track and pointed in the right direction." This brings us back to the Drive/pack discussion, plus something Paul and GDG are very big on, they are all different so train the one you have.
> 
> Here is the full write up from the NFC's owner then one from Paul.
> 
> http://www.glencoekennels.net/dogs/Training/AIKANEHOKULANIbyJohnBishop.docx
> 
> http://www.glencoekennels.net/dogs/Training/AikaneHokulaniLANIPaul's111.docx


An Appreciation from a Cocker Man:

THANK YOU, Steve for posting up Lani's owners account of how she got to the 2015 Cocker Nationals. She dodged a huge medical challenge from the mean seed lung infection. She had a very skilled veterinary surgeon in attendance, no doubt. And Paul gave some wonderful background color of how her quite limited training and but extensive hunting experience came together in the 2015 National Champ. Great Stuff!!


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> I'm enjoying all the videos and the essays about NFC Lani and the rest of the cockers. I have to get up early enough to be done watching the videos by 8 am (data usage allotment :-( ) so just saw them this morning. I have the Ian Openshaw training videos. My step daughter married a Brit, Chris. I couldn't understand Ian very well so had Chris watch the video in the hope of him translating. He said he could understand what he was saying but had no idea what Ian was talking about! LOL
> 
> I have a question about place board training. I haven't done a real good job of making the best use of it but have used it. I like McGagh/Dauber's steadiness training methods off the board. So... Yesterday I gave it a go. I ran into a problem and quit.
> 
> The pigeon I used must not have been a strong flyer. I had Jeepers on the place board, dizzied the pigeon and sent the dog. The pigeon flushed, Jeepers chased and (UGH!) the bird came down and Jeepers caught it. I praised him for bringing it back to me but knew the lesson didn't go as planned so I quit. I'm afraid to give him more birds and have him chase and CATCH them.
> 
> I attended a spaniel training session put on by Joe DeMarkis. He used a "brush pile tunnel" where the dog was on the place board, the bird was dizzied on the far side of the tunnel. The dog was sent from the board, the handler was near the dizzied bird on the far side of the tunnel; the dog flushed the bird and still could be stopped from chasing by the handler. I was thinking about doing this although I don't have any kind of tunnel.
> 
> So... Do you think I should just continue with the place board, dizzied pigeon routine even if he happens to catch it after a chase? What do you fellows think? Tunnel or let chase?
> 
> I hesitated to post this but then decided I'm more interested in help than worrying about the consequences.


By your own admission you have been lax in keeping up on the place boards. So on a whim you placed Jeeepers in a tough situation, using live birds and hoping for good results. Hoping for accidental behavior is not training. I might have hup him up in the place then went about tossing bumpers then letting him watch me pick them up then alternate the bumpers he could ( you send him) fetch and the ones he could not. Usually I tend to allow the student to go for the longer marks and hold them on the short marks. Then when you have Jeeppers completely underwhelmed by the activity you add some real excitement to the drill and let him watch a flyer go off. Not flush just let him hang on to the place. By "Underwhelmed " I mean he has been perfect. If not perfect then finish the exercise on a high note and wait to over stimulate him the next time if he is perfect

Joe is fine young lad and is really come a long ways in his training and dog handling. However whenever I see a very simple plan, namely place training and it gets complicated by such things as tunnels and magic brush piles, it is not necessary. There are others that are on the seminar circuit doing this, well like your self not every one has that additional complication readily available. The key to the boards is this it is simple you can use just about any thing as your place, Like Daubers small box, like Pauls, even smaller platform, like my tables, and door mat, and even the bottom half of a old Vari-Kennel. Keep it simple the place will pay huge dividends. Best of training!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> By your own admission you have been lax in keeping up on the place boards. So on a whim you placed Jeeepers in a tough situation, using live birds and hoping for good results. Hoping for accidental behavior is not training. I might have hup him up in the place then went about tossing bumpers then letting him watch me pick them up then alternate the bumpers he could ( you send him) fetch and the ones he could not. Usually I tend to allow the student to go for the longer marks and hold them on the short marks. Then when you have Jeeppers completely underwhelmed by the activity you add some real excitement to the drill and let him watch a flyer go off. Not flush just let him hang on to the place. By "Underwhelmed " I mean he has been perfect. If not perfect then finish the exercise on a high note and wait to over stimulate him the next time if he is perfect
> 
> Joe is fine young lad and is really come a long ways in his training and dog handling. However whenever I see a very simple plan, namely place training and it gets complicated by such things as tunnels and magic brush piles, it is not necessary. There are others that are on the seminar circuit doing this, well like your self not every one has that additional complication readily available. The key to the boards is this it is simple you can use just about any thing as your place, Like Daubers small box, like Pauls, even smaller platform, like my tables, and door mat, and even the bottom half of a old Vari-Kennel. Keep it simple the place will pay huge dividends. Best of training!



OK! Keep with the place boards it is!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> By your own admission you have been lax in keeping up on the place boards. So on a whim you placed Jeeepers in a tough situation, using live birds and hoping for good results. Hoping for accidental behavior is not training. I might have hup him up in the place then went about tossing bumpers then letting him watch me pick them up then alternate the bumpers he could ( you send him) fetch and the ones he could not. Usually I tend to allow the student to go for the longer marks and hold them on the short marks. Then when you have Jeeppers completely underwhelmed by the activity you add some real excitement to the drill and let him watch a flyer go off. Not flush just let him hang on to the place. By "Underwhelmed " I mean he has been perfect. If not perfect then finish the exercise on a high note and wait to over stimulate him the next time if he is perfect!


GDG is spot on above. You are looking for perfect "pack" before you send to "drive".

The placeboard won't magically make the dog steady, the placeboard when used to develop, as GDG says, the Drive-Pack switch, it becomes a mechanism to calm dog to take direction (pack), then release to full out (drive), back to board to full (pack). This is the whole process is developed over a period of time. Zac and Murphy started the day they came home learning that the board is a nice "place" they get treats, quickly they were intro'd to retrieves (the new "treat" to develop work ethic) in the house, and I steady them almost immediately with gentle restraint. During this phase I am looking to keep the "drive" very high with excitement and limiting the retrieves, "pack" is developed with the early treats then a place where work takes place (pun intended). GOLLY I LOVE THIS DRIVE-PACK Hal!! 

When it comes to steadying Jill, I pretty much follow Paul's method which goes fairly easily when developed the way I describe. Even in the video Hal shared the young dogs Zac and Blaze struggled with the thrown birds over their heads, until they proved to Paul they could stay in "Pack" to tossed birds in front of their face, he didn't try flushing. With Paul's method even his own pups then will chase (and he wants them to) fly-a-ways and he is looking for the switch to come on (the dog to decide it wants to go back to "pack" after being in full "drive) and come back to the board on it's own. I use my presence to assist this by standing quite close to the bird to be flushed without having to use voice or whistle in the beginning. For an example it took Zac around 20 chases to flip the switch on his own so I could mold him where I wanted. Murphy closer to 40. And then we use many more working thru moving into various covers, distractions, having shots during fly-a-way, to finally actually shooting some of them. All this done with keeping a sharp eye on a bold flush and the quick switch of pack to drive to pack. I don't even send on retrieve from shot bird until all the rest is down cold, and then just a few to begin with. Then adding to that we start each new task such as the steady to flush, on the board, then wean off board. Then add in distractions, back on the boards...wean off. Add in the shot on fly-a-ways, you guessed it, back on boards until down cold, then weaned off. 

Saying all this, Paul readily admits that dogs he gets in for training sometimes take lots more time and birds to get them so he can use his methods. Most others and many many very successful trainers steady more like Bob S does. This is where Joe in his defense began using his flushing tunnel to use a step in steadying by focusing the dog to a small area where he could position himself to physically stop dog on the flush without having to chase. He learned placeboard work after that. It was a tool he said he uses once or twice with certain dogs to help them "get it". 

You don't give someone a baseball glove and they automatically become a major leaguer, but if they learn the game and how to use that glove with a lot of hard work, there is a chance they can become a major leaguer.


----------



## JAM

dauber said:


> GDG is spot on above. You are looking for perfect "pack" before you send to "drive".
> 
> The placeboard won't magically make the dog steady, the placeboard when used to develop, as GDG says, the Drive-Pack switch, it becomes a mechanism to calm dog to take direction (pack), then release to full out (drive), back to board to full (pack). This is the whole process is developed over a period of time. Zac and Murphy started the day they came home learning that the board is a nice "place" they get treats, quickly they were intro'd to retrieves (the new "treat" to develop work ethic) in the house, and I steady them almost immediately with gentle restraint. During this phase I am looking to keep the "drive" very high with excitement and limiting the retrieves, "pack" is developed with the early treats then a place where work takes place (pun intended). GOLLY I LOVE THIS DRIVE-PACK Hal!!
> 
> When it comes to steadying Jill, I pretty much follow Paul's method which goes fairly easily when developed the way I describe. Even in the video Hal shared the young dogs Zac and Blaze struggled with the thrown birds over their heads, until they proved to Paul they could stay in "Pack" to tossed birds in front of their face, he didn't try flushing. With Paul's method even his own pups then will chase (and he wants them to) fly-a-ways and he is looking for the switch to come on (the dog to decide it wants to go back to "pack" after being in full "drive) and come back to the board on it's own. I use my presence to assist this by standing quite close to the bird to be flushed without having to use voice or whistle in the beginning. For an example it took Zac around 20 chases to flip the switch on his own so I could mold him where I wanted. Murphy closer to 40. And then we use many more working thru moving into various covers, distractions, having shots during fly-a-way, to finally actually shooting some of them. All this done with keeping a sharp eye on a bold flush and the quick switch of pack to drive to pack. I don't even send on retrieve from shot bird until all the rest is down cold, and then just a few to begin with. Then adding to that we start each new task such as the steady to flush, on the board, then wean off board. Then add in distractions, back on the boards...wean off. Add in the shot on fly-a-ways, you guessed it, back on boards until down cold, then weaned off.
> 
> Saying all this, Paul readily admits that dogs he gets in for training sometimes take lots more time and birds to get them so he can use his methods. Most others and many many very successful trainers steady more like Bob S does. This is where Joe in his defense began using his flushing tunnel to use a step in steadying by focusing the dog to a small area where he could position himself to physically stop dog on the flush without having to chase. He learned placeboard work after that. It was a tool he said he uses once or twice with certain dogs to help them "get it".
> 
> You don't give someone a baseball glove and they automatically become a major leaguer, but if they learn the game and how to use that glove with a lot of hard work, there is a chance they can become a major leaguer.


Thanks, Dauber & GDG! I appreciate all your help. I'm going mad not being able to do much with the dogs, etc. but am starting to see the light. I see the doc on 3/9 and the PT thinks I'll be ready to just do exercises at home. YIPPEE! I'm not healed enough yet to march through the snow and pick up their retrieves myself for fear of falling and having to start this all over. 

I took (dragged  ) 2 place boards out this am and did some work with them. Stormy's a handful but knows the place board and so is OK with it. He was not raised on it. Jeepers is better. He loves his place board in the garage. So I threw bumpers and only sent one of the dogs for the retrieve. Sometimes I threw 2 retrieves and didn't send either of them right away. It went very well. Jeepers broke one time going for the 2nd bumper while Stormy was on retrieve for the 1st.

When I start with throwing clips over Jeepers head I will have him out by himself. 

Jeepers had been steady last fall - even to grouse flushing. But this pigeon was more than he could handle. I dizzied the bird and sent Jeepers thinking this bird couldn't fly. It managed to get airborne and he chased it. At that time it was still "his bird" but when it gained enough height that he should have hupped he just kept chasing. That all would have worked out fine if the bird had just landed in a tree but it hit the ground and ended up in Jeepers yap.

So... We'll get back to the place board training. We have done enough with them that they're not new. It's just that I train mostly with Bob S and he doesn't use them. 

Dauber, If you happen to be in my neck of the woods (need something at Tractor Supply in Esky?), I'd appreciate it if you had time to stop by and give me a little help.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> GDG is spot on above. You are looking for perfect "pack" before you send to "drive".
> 
> GOLLY I LOVE THIS DRIVE-PACK Hal!!
> 
> 
> You don't give someone a baseball glove and they automatically become a major leaguer, but if they learn the game and how to use that glove with a lot of hard work, there is a chance they can become a major leaguer.


Dauber that is a Spanielized Hal-ism. You may used it at your on discretion, My beer debt to you and Karen has been paid, ya know, all the dark Brown ales you left here that summer!

As Maugh i used to say coming back from the field with a dog tow
"The dog was in good P_D_P Pack to Drive to Pack". That always was the sign of a excellent session!


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Thanks, Dauber & GDG! I appreciate all your help. I'm going mad not being able to do much with the dogs, etc. but am starting to see the light. I see the doc on 3/9 and the PT thinks I'll be ready to just do exercises at home. YIPPEE! I'm not healed enough yet to march through the snow and pick up their retrieves myself for fear of falling and having to start this all over.
> 
> I took (dragged  ) 2 place boards out this am and did some work with them. Stormy's a handful but knows the place board and so is OK with it. He was not raised on it. Jeepers is better. He loves his place board in the garage. So I threw bumpers and only sent one of the dogs for the retrieve. Sometimes I threw 2 retrieves and didn't send either of them right away. It went very well. Jeepers broke one time going for the 2nd bumper while Stormy was on retrieve for the 1st.
> 
> When I start with throwing clips over Jeepers head I will have him out by himself.
> 
> Jeepers had been steady last fall - even to grouse flushing. But this pigeon was more than he could handle. I dizzied the bird and sent Jeepers thinking this bird couldn't fly. It managed to get airborne and he chased it. At that time it was still "his bird" but when it gained enough height that he should have hupped he just kept chasing. That all would have worked out fine if the bird had just landed in a tree but it hit the ground and ended up in Jeepers yap.
> 
> So... We'll get back to the place board training. We have done enough with them that they're not new. It's just that I train mostly with Bob S and he doesn't use them.
> 
> Dauber, If you happen to be in my neck of the woods (need something at Tractor Supply in Esky?), I'd appreciate it if you had time to stop by and give me a little help.


Good, simplify the work-out before you make it complex. Watch for that quiet cooperation from your dog before asking the dog to some thing more complex.
As an aside I to steadied dogs the way most Spaniels folks across the country do it placeboards have been around a while but not aas long as I have. I find good to understand the different ways of approaching the problem. In Goodalls book explains the system I use for years until I modified it with the boards


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## michgundog

Some nice cocker pups Metro1 had this morning!


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## dauber

I didn't really know what a podcast was...well still don't really, but after 3 or 4 tries I got it to play and this was a worthwhile hour and a half listening about spaniels. 

http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/4250274


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## CDN_Cocker

dauber said:


> I didn't really know what a podcast was...well still don't really, but after 3 or 4 tries I got it to play and this was a worthwhile hour and a half listening about spaniels.
> 
> http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/4250274


I just got into podcasts a couple weeks ago and The Hunting Dog Podcast is my favorite, bird dogs forever is also good. I see that they just posted this one of Paul McGagh! I know what I'm listening to this morning! Unfortunately most of the podcasts out there revolve around pointing breeds, but I know the host of The Hunting Dog Podcast has a huge interest in english cockers so I have been waiting for him to do one extensively on them. Many of his pointing dog guests have at least one cocker and he always says he plans on getting one in the next year.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Unfortunately most of the podcasts out there revolve around pointing breeds, but I know the host of The Hunting Dog Podcast has a huge interest in english cockers so I .


Nick do not be to dismay that pointing breeds grab the limelight on air and in video. Most production company's that do vids of sporting breeds are very challenged to present a good hunting video of Spaniels hunting or trialing due to the cover and conditions. As a number of photog buffs have commented over the years to me "all we can ever get is the weeds and grass moving". Try to find a good video of USA Cockers or Springers trialing or hunting. There are plenty of the lil flusher training video because training cover is much lighter than hunting or trialing cover. Pointing dogs are just so much more photogenic because they can operate in very thin cover. 
An early mentor of mind also reminded me on more than a few occasions Be careful of promoting our breeds to much we as a group do not want what the American Cocker and the Irish setter have gone through with a poor over breeding program.. Now I'm going to try to watch this pod cast thingy. Hie-on!


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## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> Nick do not be to dismay that pointing breeds grab the limelight on air and in video. Most production company's that do vids of sporting breeds are very challenged to present a good hunting video of Spaniels hunting or trialing due to the cover and conditions. As a number of photog buffs have commented over the years to me "all we can ever get is the weeds and grass moving". Try to find a good video of USA Cockers or Springers trialing or hunting. There are plenty of the lil flusher training video because training cover is much lighter than hunting or trialing cover. Pointing dogs are just so much more photogenic because they can operate in very thin cover.
> An early mentor of mind also reminded me on more than a few occasions Be careful of promoting our breeds to much we as a group do not want what the American Cocker and the Irish setter have gone through with a poor over breeding program.. Now I'm going to try to watch this pod cast thingy. Hie-on!


Yes I suppose that makes sense. I am just the type of person that when I'm interested in something I want to read everything I possibly can, watch every video, and be involved in every experience possible. Unfortunately for me, there is not as much literature on cockers/springers as the other breeds, not as many videos (for the reasons you correctly point out), and even experiences are in short supply due to my work and family commitments, and the fact that I live so far away from my club. That podcast is good though! You'll enjoy it.


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Yes I suppose that makes sense. I am just the type of person that when I'm interested in something I want to read everything I possibly can, watch every video, and be involved in every experience possible. Unfortunately for me, there is not as much literature on cockers/springers as the other breeds, not as many videos (for the reasons you correctly point out), and even experiences are in short supply due to my work and family commitments, and the fact that I live so far away from my club. That podcast is good though! You'll enjoy it.


Well good keep search for information that is a good thing. As far as literature there is a treasure trove of information out there. I can think of 3 great studies of the spaniels and their training that are readily available.
Radcliff, Erlanson, Goodall, Roggencamp, To name a few authors.


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## CDN_Cocker

Yes I have a number of books. Now with a maturing cocker (3 years old) I find the more I learn, the less I know... lol. I believe I've reached the point in training where I have realized I know nothing.


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## gundogguy

Nick, that interesting. I believe that I trained spaniels for about 10 years before I ever picked up a book on the subject. and video's were non existent back in the 70's. 
As an early mentor advised "Time and tide ($), a field, a gun and birds".So with common sense we ran with it back then.
I was amazed when I read those first couple of books, the authors all said about the same thing we were all doing, and what the old timers had advised to do as well.


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## gundogguy

Going thru the archives today found this little clip Of Nancy Gallant and her AM Cocker CH Keeper JH.


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## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> Going thru the archives today found this little clip Of Nancy Gallant and her AM Cocker CH Keeper JH.


One thing I thought about this clip that I over looked was that it was a vid of a newly steadied non-electric Cocker in training, a new handler in training and new guns in training. All and all a good work -out for all involved.


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## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> Going thru the archives today found this little clip Of Nancy Gallant and her AM Cocker CH Keeper JH.


Nice video. I have a soft spot for those "buff" coloured american cockers. We had one as a child, my parents had her a year before I was born so I spent my early years with her by my side. I loved that dog and she also taught me the absolute devastation that only losing a dog can. I would never own another american cocker but I can't help but root for them when I see one. Bev has a couple of decent ones and I love when she brings one out at training.


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## dauber

Nice vid of Nancy's Keeper dog! I've crossed paths with them both in the past. 

Yesterday was Zac's first spring trial. His first was a bit shaky but had very nice runs in 2nd and 3rd. No placements though. Back at it today in some tough conditions with winds over 50 and snow. We'll give it our best again.


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Nice vid of Nancy's Keeper dog! I've crossed paths with them both in the past.
> 
> Yesterday was Zac's first spring trial. His first was a bit shaky but had very nice runs in 2nd and 3rd. No placements though. Back at it today in some tough conditions with winds over 50 and snow. We'll give it our best again.


Glad to hear your runs went well yesterday.

Good luck today! Sounds like it's going to be real "Yooper" weather.


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## CDN_Cocker

Good luck dauber!


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## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> Good luck dauber!


White out conditions here in S.Mich
50miles per power out snowing ground covered generator do it's job. Be well!!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> White out conditions here in S.Mich
> 50miles per power out snowing ground covered generator do it's job. Be well!!


Some wicked conditions today. Zac had a very nice upwind first, then had a downwind second with conditions deteriorating still made a nice first find and retrieve of shot bird but passed a bird I stepped up hiding in a tire rut so his day was over. 

Murphy ran his first puppy stake and did a nice job and took a second.


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## gundogguy

Good work man! Early training schedule paying dividends. Nice photo shop of that winter scene as well!


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Some wicked conditions today. Zac had a very nice upwind first, then had a downwind second with conditions deteriorating still made a nice first find and retrieve of shot bird but passed a bird I stepped up hiding in a tire rut so his day was over.
> 
> Murphy ran his first puppy stake and did a nice job and took a second.
> 
> View attachment 210162


Congrats, Murphy & Dauber! Great job!


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Some wicked conditions today. Zac had a very nice upwind first, then had a downwind second with conditions deteriorating still made a nice first find and retrieve of shot bird but passed a bird I stepped up hiding in a tire rut so his day was over.
> 
> Murphy ran his first puppy stake and did a nice job and took a second.
> 
> View attachment 210162


NICE Red ribbon for Murph in his first trial. May it be the first of many.

And nice hat, Steve. Its my "lucky hat", killed a deer every time out. 
Made in 'da UP, eh PURE MEEECHIGAN.


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## michgundog

SMSSTC is still planning on holding our spring hunt test. We're a little late getting it going this year since we had to change venues, dates, among other issues. Anyway, the date is 4/30 & 5/1, location will be at Andy's Acres Preserve near Hillsdale. The premium will be available this week. If anyone is interested IM me. Remember the hunt test is open to all flushing spaniels, Airedale Terriers, curly&/flat coat retrievers, Labrador retrievers, Chessies and Golden Retrievers.


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## CDN_Cocker

Way to go Murphy! Looks similar to here right now - bit of snow as well. Tough luck for Zac  it happens though, I'm sure he'll bring home a ribbon next time!


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## dauber

Zac had a very nice trial today with some monster finds in all 3 series and great ground work and use of the wind. Ended today with the guns award and a blue ribbon. Pending the water certification he will be an Amateur Field Champion. Way to go little fella.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Zac had a very nice trial today with some monster finds in all 3 series and great ground work and use of the wind. Ended today with the guns award and a blue ribbon. Pending the water certification he will be an Amateur Field Champion. Way to go little fella.
> 
> View attachment 210198
> 
> 
> View attachment 210199


BIG CONGRATS on the big win today, the Blue Ribbon plus the GA. And a pending AFC too. Great Stuff, Steve and Karen.  

You guys had a heck of a successful trial at what I can imagine were some pretty challenging conditions. Winds gusting in the 40's here and snowing heavily at times today.

How does one get the water certification?


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## CDN_Cocker

WOW!!! Hasn't taken Zac long at all to become a FC! Congrats!!!! Way to go!


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## dauber

CDN_Cocker said:


> WOW!!! Hasn't taken Zac long at all to become a FC! Congrats!!!! Way to go!


AFC! He had 6 points towards FC but no win...yet. 

For cockers the water cert is just one 30-40 yard water retrieve, about the same as water series in National. We might have done it today, but pond was frozen. Saturday Zac broke ice on a retrieve in frozen flooded woods, with a diversion flush right before the water/ice.

In a couple weeks there are a couple of us who need water yet so if not froze may get it then to be official.


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## gundogguy

Outstanding Team Dauber! So many years ago you started your journey and like all of us you had obstacles and detours on the way. But you and Karen were relentless in your quest to have a dog in the 1%. You did it congrats and a top of the hat. It is one for folks to say "I have a great dog" it certainly something else when other folks tell and say you have a great dog.


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## dauber

You and Mrs GDG have been s huge part of our journey. Thank you for getting us into these games and for all your help along the way.


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## JAM

Congrats AFC Zac and Mr. & Mrs. Dauber! AWESOME!


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## yooperguy

Congrats dauber! Really cool stuff.


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## Steelheadfred

Said it over on FB Steve, congrats, incredible work, all am trained. I'm very happy for you.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> You and Mrs GDG have been s huge part of our journey. Thank you for getting us into these games and for all your help along the way.


Dauber, Thank-you it has always been our pleasure. However I am really just the " greeter at Walmart" When folks come to us, Nancy and I have always thought it was just our job to help folks find the right aisle of the "store" so they could find what they were looking for. 
One area I have over looked in this celebration for Mr & Mrs Dauber and their fine little dog Zac "attack"
is Zac's breeder. I think I know who that is but I'll let you name that fine person who over the years has done wonderful job of putting the blood together, they are force in the breed of Field bred English Cockers. 
As a breeder we know exactly how they feel today, we have had the happen for us with pups that we have placed over the years with dedicated folks like yourselves. There just is no better feeling for a breeder than to have some one make Field Champion with your blood line.
By way normally the owner of the newly crown champion, buys the beer at next shindig!! The Dude's buying!


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## dauber

Yes the breeders of Zac is Rumi and Mike at Fallen Wings Kennel, Hilbert Wisconsin. They certainly have been one of the important producers of outstanding fbecs's for many years. They also are Mutphy's breeder and our next project, a pup we are getting in 2 weeks. 
Yes we will be starting the "buying the beer" in 2 weeks at Central Wisconsin trials.


----------



## michgundog

michgundog said:


> SMSSTC is still planning on holding our spring hunt test. We're a little late getting it going this year since we had to change venues, dates, among other issues. Anyway, the date is 4/30 & 5/1, location will be at Andy's Acres Preserve near Hillsdale. The premium will be available this week. If anyone is interested IM me. Remember the hunt test is open to all flushing spaniels, Airedale Terriers, curly&/flat coat retrievers, Labrador retrievers, Chessies and Golden Retrievers.


Premiums are available on our Facebook page or IM and I can send one out via email. Thank you.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Yes the breeders of Zac is Rumi and Mike at Fallen Wings Kennel, Hilbert Wisconsin. They certainly have been one of the important producers of outstanding fbecs's for many years. They also are Mutphy's breeder and our next project, *a pup we are getting in 2 weeks*.
> Yes we will be starting the "buying the beer" in 2 weeks at Central Wisconsin trials.


Congratulations on your new project dog. I would think the Rumi and Mike Schnieder at Fallen Wings are just thrilled to have yous guys as clients. Absolutely nothing better for trial quality pups to go to a trial home that is committed like You and Karen are. Dog or Bitch pup??? you know we cannot wait to see pics and vid. Good travels to Wisconsin.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Congratulations on your new project dog. I would think the Rumi and Mike Schnieder at Fallen Wings are just thrilled to have yous guys as clients. Absolutely nothing better for trial quality pups to go to a trial home that is committed like You and Karen are. Dog or Bitch pup??? you know we cannot wait to see pics and vid. Good travels to Wisconsin.



Dog. Fallen Wings Tapio. " Tappy"


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## sgc

Picked this sketch up of Cockers at an antique shop my wife dragged me to today. Wondered if anyone ever saw this picture or these two before. thanks,


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

sgc said:


> Picked this sketch up of Cockers at an antique shop my wife dragged me to today. Wondered if anyone ever saw this picture or these two before. thanks,
> 
> View attachment 210645


 Never saw it before, Stan.

Who was the artist??


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## gundogguy

Yes I have seen it. A dog show judge friend of ours has one in her dining room. Very nice head study!


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## sgc

Rod, it's hard to read. The name is on the bottom right corner. It looks like Paul Wenard.

Hal, thanks. It's a sketch and I wondered if it was a standard picture of Cockers. I couldn't find it in my Mike Smith book, which has a lot of Cocker pictures.


----------



## gundogguy

sgc said:


> I couldn't find it in my Mike Smith book, which has a lot of Cocker pictures.


I'm not surprized, I have Mr Smiths book as well. Smith would only have photos of working FBEC's. The head study illustration is that of a pair of show dogs show dogs. Over the years i have worked with a dozen or so show type English Cockers. I can supply with a number of vids of both show and field bred. Dauber would many vids of his FBEC but I would be surprised if he had any show bred EC pics or vids . Still a very accurate head study. Thanks for sharing it at the "Corner".


----------



## sgc

Hal, thanks for response. Actually, I'd like to see a video of some show dogs working in the field. That would be interesting.


----------



## gundogguy

sgc said:


> Hal, thanks for response. Actually, I'd like to see a video of some show dogs working in the field. That would be interesting.



Here are two show bred English Cocker getting in some field work. Both are steady to wing and shot.





This a little shorter however with nice finish to hand


----------



## dauber

Murphy doing a little marking today.


----------



## michgundog

Hey Stan I came across this cool old painting in one of the antique stores in Holly. It could be yours for the price of I want to say $700!! Pease don't quote the price, I know it was more than I could afford.


----------



## sgc

Thanks Mike. No I'm not in the market for a $700 painting either.


----------



## dauber

Here is our next project, Fallen Wings Tapio "Tappy". 










Here is the cover for the first two series. So far calm winds 78 degrees. Tough conditions.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Here is our next project, Fallen Wings Tapio "Tappy".
> 
> View attachment 211387
> 
> 
> Here is the cover for the first two series. So far calm winds 78 degrees. Tough conditions.
> 
> View attachment 211388


Welcome, Tappy to TSC II. Real cute and like the even marked face/head.
Blue Roan or Black w/ White markings??

Re that pic of cover for trial. OUCH, I hope that not MFR, is it?? Thick and nasty for sure and a real test of what makes a spaniel a good spaniel.

NB


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## gundogguy

Cover is one thing and i always like the challenge. Temperature is another factor all together. Very few dogs have had a chance to climatize from the winetr chill to a sudden turn to summer like temps. Best runs of runs.


----------



## dauber

Yes lots of MFR and blackberry briers. As GDG says the Temps for this time of season was worst. Zac made it thru 2 series but didn't get called for 3rd. His 1st was a little weak, real nice second. Murphy won puppy with a real nice crosswind run. Zac gets another shot today. Hope the temps are a little cooler than the 82 yesterday. Big trial for cockers here nearly 40 dogs.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

dauber said:


> Here is our next project, Fallen Wings Tapio "Tappy".
> 
> View attachment 211387


He's the right colour!


----------



## dauber

Another hot one, 84 degrees and very little wind! Zac completed the 3rd but no placement. I was very happy with his runs. Heck he stuck it to the club having 14 flushes in 3 series and keeping it together. Wish we could have stayed to watch the springers tomorrow! That will be wild with chukers.

3rd series


----------



## gundogguy

CDN_Cocker said:


> He's the right colour!


Yikes, hope he never has to run under a judge that thinks Liver or Buff is truely the "right colour"!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Yikes, hope he never has to run under a judge that thinks Liver or Buff is truely the "right colour"!


Color is not on my list of criteria for selecting puppy. We spent 3 evenings sitting on the floor with the litter, talking with the breeder and knowing what we hope to accomplish. When you pick the right breeder and the right mating your odds are improved in meeting your goals. 

This time the breeder knowing we were going to spend 3 evenings, the first night she told us to tell her without her input our top two. Yes we picked the same two she had thought we would. Those 2 were very close. She thought we liked blue roans since we have 2 already so she thought that's the one we would pick. But being that color wasn't on our list in the end we took the one that was confident but not the bully, the one that would sit and look at me like he was saying "I'm your guy" (they both did this some, but Tappy was a little calmer and confident), and the one who liked to carry things. After first evening we had it 60-40 for Tappy. Second evening was 70-30. The third evening was closer to 50-50 but we still gave Tappy the slight edge. In the end the breeder said she had those 2 picked, she was giving us 1st pick and she is keeping the other as a trial prospect. 

We are excited with little Tappy as training starts today. We are hopeful his marking and bird finding is as good as his momma's, and his movement, determination, and biddability are as good as his daddy.


----------



## dauber

Here's a few Tappy pics. 

First trip to training field. 










Daddy you dropped your hat. 










I found a feather. 










Here's my new buddies.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> We are excited with little Tappy as training starts today. We are hopeful his marking and bird finding is as good as his momma's, and his movement, determination, and biddability are as good as his daddy.


Adding the ingredients up betwix the dam and stud, you have another winner on your hands. Good training and I know your having fun!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Here's a few Tappy pics.
> 
> First trip to training field.
> View attachment 211693
> 
> 
> 
> Daddy you dropped your hat.
> View attachment 211694
> 
> 
> 
> I found a feather.
> View attachment 211695
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my new buddies.
> View attachment 211696


Cute as a button and nice even markings too. And your selection process was textbook too. Few are able to have that luxury of multiple visits and bloodlines up close and personal. Fallen Wings is fortunate to have you and Karen as puppy buyers.


----------



## gundogguy

The Quiet season is upon us, the spring (USA)Spaniel trial season is winding down ( although the Canadian trial season is about to get busy), and for those that participate in Flushing dog tests action for 2016 is about to begin.
For those that participate in these venues often the formats are clear and a formulated game plan may be secure.
For those that do not sometimes all of the activities can be very confounded, especially when the two venues,trial and test are used in the same conversation.

To begin with Tests are scored. At each level of testing the "judges" confirm with a numerical score as to how well the dog perform the given assignment. The Scoring is done with objective analysis. Here in the US Tests are judged very objectively. Did the dog do the work that was asked of them? Style,pace, and general spaniel like qualities are not factors . . Penalties or low scores would be based on non-performance. i.e. lack of response to the whistle, unsteadiness lack of retrieve failure to enter water and so on. The judges panel should not be scored from personal like or dislike of the dog work but rather " did the dog complete the assignment and solve the problem". Tests by there very nature do not provide an award for the best dog the judges saw that day.

Spaniel trials are just the opposite, the judging is done with subjective analysis. If a dog performs in a less than productive manner, breaking, failed retrieve and so on the dog puts themselves out of the competition. The judges job is to find the best dog that day. Not necessarily put dogs out. Dogs are awarded placements based on the judges panel's likes or dislike. Most often it is in the quality of the bird finding that, the difference between two dog and how they made their birds. Judges have wide parameters to operate in. For example, some judges like the style of dog that runs wide, where another appreciates a dog with a more beater like demeanor. Many times the size of the dog can influence the judges decision in trial, where in a test size is irrelevant. Over the years I have had many dogs that finish the trial,and have had a solid 3 series to prove their worthiness, and yet receive no award. Judges generally when questioned, have very simple answers, they just appreciated the placing dogs more than my dog. Often it is not a case of the dog not doing the work it is a case of the judge not finding the work pleasing to his eye. 
These thoughts come about from discussions that have been on going with spaniel folks here and in the UK. So I thought I would share them to help folks with understanding what Spaniel Trials and Tests were about. These ideas are an on going evolving discussion.


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Cute as a button and nice even markings too. And your selection process was textbook too. Few are able to have that luxury of multiple visits and bloodlines up close and personal. Fallen Wings is fortunate to have you and Karen as puppy buyers.


You are correct about the luxury in selecting Tappy. With Tappy "we" selected the litter. With Zac and Murphy we had the breeder select the litter and male pup for us. It was easy for Murphy since he was only boy, but they wanted to make sure they thought he had the "right stuff". When we got Murphy the perimeters were an athletic bigger high quality trial dog. When the breeder selected Zac's litter our perimeters were smaller more British style grouse and woodcock specialist that we would play the trial game with. I give great credit to Fallen Wings for nailing the first 2 pups. 

Tappy's early training has began, he is learning place on placeboard, come, and is doing limited numbers of short retrieves. Hup starts today. This will be the lessons with gradual increases in difficulty as he tells us he is ready.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Spaniel trials are just the opposite, the judging is done with subjective analysis. If a dog performs in a less than productive manner, breaking, failed retrieve and so on the dog puts themselves out of the competition. The judges job is to find the best dog that day. Not necessarily put dogs out. Dogs are awarded placements based on the judges panel's likes or dislike. Most often it is in the quality of the bird finding that, the difference between two dog and how they made their birds. Judges have wide parameters to operate in. For example, some judges like the style of dog that runs wide, where another appreciates a dog with a more beater like demeanor. Many times the size of the dog can influence the judges decision in trial, where in a test size is irrelevant. Over the years I have had many dogs that finish the trial,and have had a solid 3 series to prove their worthiness, and yet receive no award. Judges generally when questioned, have very simple answers, they just appreciated the placing dogs more than my dog. Often it is not a case of the dog not doing the work it is a case of the judge not finding the work pleasing to his eye.
> These thoughts come about from discussions that have been on going with spaniel folks here and in the UK. So I thought I would share them to help folks with understanding what Spaniel Trials and Tests were about. These ideas are an on going evolving discussion.


 Very good descriptions GDG!! 

I left off the hunt test part since personally I have little interest in flushing hunt tests. Your description of trials is spot on. After Sunday's trial I told Karen I have never been prouder of Zac than all 3 of his series. The things I look for in a spaniel that GDG listed in my byline were there in spades. There isn't enough room for me to even write how confusing the situations were in the 1st and 3rd series. In the end I could figure out the 1st series, but the 3rd series run I really have no idea how it could be judged. There was no guns award at this trial, but the guns came and surrounded me at the awards and asked how I felt before the announcement. I told them it didn't matter to me since I was happy as hell with our trial, knowing the judges might not been as happy with all the confusion Zac attack caused on a very hot difficult day. The top 4 dogs all had 2 birds each series in and out quick and clean. Paul McGagh told me when I started trialing that I needed to learn what I like in a dog, stay consistent with that and evaluate each run yourself. Let the judges judge. Be happy and gratuitous when you ribbon, but let your happiness and satisfaction come from your own evaluation. It's not always that easy but those words did sink in Sunday evening. 

Thanks for explaining Hal.


----------



## gundogguy

You got it dauber, your are starting to understand what a dog is all about!


----------



## dauber

Tappy getting some "socializing".


----------



## Steelheadfred

Harrison handled Pippa in an RGS fun trial, it was the first event for both of them. 2 flushes, one nice retrieve. Ric Heller II on wood side of the iron. Everyone had a great time


----------



## dauber

Great to see kids out doing these things!! Congrats to Harrison! 

We had 5 kids out for our tree planting today near Gwinn. I love seeing kids outside doing things!!


----------



## Steelheadfred

dauber said:


> Great to see kids out doing these things!! Congrats to Harrison!
> 
> We had 5 kids out for our tree planting today near Gwinn. I love seeing kids outside doing things!!


Thanks Steve, your help is showing with her, a nice retrieve to hand slipped H a 4th. "When is the next one dad. "


----------



## Jim58

Steelheadfred said:


> Thanks Steve, your help is showing with her, a nice retrieve to hand slipped H a 4th. "When is the next one dad. "


That's awesome, love that picture!


----------



## dauber

Last spring US trials for us was last weekend in Minnesota. Ran Zac in 2 opens and Murphy in one puppy. Had a great time camping and bbqing all weekend. 

Zac had a solid first open and finished the trial but no placement. I was only Amateur handler to make it to the 3rd series. It was a HOT 88 and Zac handled that much better than I did. 

Second open Zac had a so-so first series. Therefore when I got him in the second I decided to go all out in the downwind and get him rolling. Well got him rolling a bit too much and left a small area uncovered after an honor and the ole passed bird got us. 

Murphy had a good run in puppy but not quite as good as Dan Murray's pup who also placed 4th in the open. So Murphy took home the red ribbon. 

Now we are taking a break for a few weeks then get ready for Sudbury, ON in mid June.


----------



## gundogguy

Nice report, good account of the weekends events. I did not see the running order, how many dogs ran in the
Open AA? I'm not sure of the schedule but I suppose Zeta could very possible be running at Sudbury, please do not beat up on her to much! I fairly certain she is running at Fisherville this week.


----------



## dauber

They were open AA's about 35 dogs. Nice switchgrass cover. Good judged with Kevin McGlin and Mhari Peschel. 

Good luck to Zeta in Fisherville! We may hit that one next year. Bev and Alex are always trying to get us down to their trials. Not sure if we are running the Open AA in Sudbury, the plan is the amateur for Zac and Murphy in puppy one day and limited the next. 

Murphy is getting pretty close to running AA, but we are going to stick to the plan and start his AA career this fall. He could use more honor work and brace work.


----------



## gundogguy

The warrior princess is on the prowl. FC Zeta is Now FC CFC Zeta having won the Southern Ontario trial today running against 24 dogs, making her Canadian Field trial championship


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> The warrior princess is on the prowl. FC Zeta is Now FC CFC Zeta having won the Southern Ontario trial today running against 24 dogs, making her Canadian Field trial championship
> View attachment 214406


Wow! Racking up the titles now! 

Congrats to Nancy and you for this success. Nice work Zeta!!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> The warrior princess is on the prowl. FC Zeta is Now FC CFC Zeta having won the Southern Ontario trial today running against 24 dogs, making her Canadian Field trial championship
> View attachment 214406


YOWWWZZERR !! The Warrior Princess is on a roll. 

BIG CONGRATS to all concerned for a very successful FT campaign this year and last. Great Stuff.


----------



## dauber

Zeta girl is still smoking hot in Canada! 2nd place today. That's a heck of a weekend! Congrats Hal and Nancy.


----------



## gundogguy

Just getting ready to load up and head to Erin Ontario for a day off and then prepare for next weekend's Ontario trials.









A win on Saturday and comeback for 2nd on Sunday. Good week end looking forward to more action soon!


----------



## JAM

Congrats Zeta! Way to go!


----------



## Steelheadfred

25lb cocker has more hair than a 60lb lab.


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## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> 25lb cocker has more hair than a 60lb lab.


It's pretty hair though! Don't worry, it will grow back...soon.


----------



## gundogguy

Nice! Over time you should become very handy with the trimmers. AM Cockers grow lots of coat. FB Cocker and Springer folks miss out on that kind of fun!


----------



## Steelheadfred

I'm open to advice on how to best shave, she looks embarrassed. I think I'll have a pro do it pre season.


----------



## gundogguy

No Cigar for Zeta today in Ontario, Passed a bird in the 3rd, running on the edge is all about going yard or going home! She runs again tommorrow then comes home next Friday for a bit of off season
Placements At Central Ontario
1st Tolo Ludwig (cocker)
2nd Tommy Keller
3rd Murphy Manz (cocker)
4th Zachary Wallace


----------



## gundogguy

kek25 said:


> Nice videos. In these long distance retrieves is the dog targeting to the likely cover or scent?





Steelheadfred said:


> 25lb cocker has more hair than a 60lb lab.





Steelheadfred said:


> I'm open to advice on how to best shave, she looks embarrassed. I think I'll have a pro do it pre season.


As I understand the process (My wife, Nancy groomed dogs for show competetions.) spaniel should not be shaved, the coat is reduced thru the use of thinning scissors on their coat, But I always said screw it if that retired bench champion was hunting I was shaving him/her down. Only had one to do over the last 30 yrs so I never got real handy with grooming long coated dogs.


----------



## dauber

Steelheadfred said:


> I'm open to advice on how to best shave, she looks embarrassed. I think I'll have a pro do it pre season.


Once I quit getting my dogs fixed the trimming has just been a little ear, feet and feathering with scissors. The neutered one gets hacked up, but it grows back quickly!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Once I quit getting my dogs fixed the trimming has just been a little ear, feet and feathering with scissors. The neutered one gets hacked up, but it grows back quickly!


Good point Dauber, "Spade bitch coat syndrome" really does reduce coat volume and thus grooming, works that way in both sexes.

"what are we talking about here"!


----------



## gundogguy

Central Ontario Sunday May 22 The photo tells the story of today of FC CFC Zeta


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> View attachment 215245
> 
> 
> 
> Central Ontario Sunday May 22 The photo tells the story of today of FC CFC Zeta


CONGRATS!! AWSOME!! What a great run she is having this Spring.

Evidently The Warrior Princess likes the water and air in Canada. 

NB


----------



## dauber

Congrats!! What a run up in the North. 
Zeta Loves Canada!! Now ya gotta go for high point dog!! Is she headed to Sudbury?


----------



## JAM

Congrats Zeta & Mr. & Mrs. GDG! AWESOME!


----------



## gundogguy

The June trial out side of Sudbury just does does not fit our schedule. I'm rooting for Team Dauber to have great trial with your boys. safe travels and rip'em up man!


----------



## gundogguy

Just to archive this where it belongs


----------



## gundogguy

You are correct dauber we are in the running for high point Canadian dog. For now any way!
*
#1
FC CFC SALMY'S LEGEND OF ZORRO Zeta
Spaniel (English Springer) - Female

Central Ontario Spaniel Club
South Western Ontario Spaniel Club
South Western Ontario Spaniel Club

22-May-16
15-May-16
14-May-16

5 pts

3 pts


5 pts 

Total 13 pts*

#2

FLUSHING WING BLACK MAGIC
_Spaniel (English Springer) - Female_

*Prince Edward Interprovincial Springer Spaniel Club*

*Prince Edward Interprovincial Springer Spaniel Club*

08-May-16
06-May-16

5 pts
5 pts
Total 10 pts

#3

FTCH BELWIND LULU LEMON
_Spaniel (English Springer) - Female_

*Prince Edward Interprovincial Springer Spaniel Club*

*Scotia Springer Club*

*Scotia Springer Club*

06-May-16
02-May-16
30-Apr-16

1 pts
5 pts
2 pts

Total 8 pts


----------



## gundogguy

Zeta is home for a summer break. A short rest and the then the conditioning will begin for the Amateur All-Age trials and the National Open Champs later this year. The NC's will be held in Ohio. With the grace of God and a fast outfield we may qualify for the National Amateur as well.
Looking back on her short whirl wind trial career we came up with some interesting stats.. I have always view many aspects of life with that of the game of baseball. America's game that is filled with stats for every possibility.
If a win is equal to a home run and a 2nd place is a triple and a third place is a double and a 4th place is a single,
Here are Zeta's offensive numbers in her short career 5 home runs, 2 triples, 4 doubles and 2 singles.
Batting .650 13 hits in 20 times a bat. She has proven she can hit the high hard one and adjust to the change up at moments notice.












Thanks to men and women in the armed Forces for the blood and treasure and service they have spilled making in possible for us to live in this great country!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Zeta is home for a summer break. A short rest and the then the conditioning will begin for the Amateur All-Age trials and the National Open Champs later this year. The NC's will be held in Ohio. With the grace of God and a fast outfield we may qualify for the National Amateur as well.
> Looking back on her short whirl wind trial career we came up with some interesting stats.. I have always view many aspects of life with that of the game of baseball. America's game that is filled with stats for every possibility.
> If a win is equal to a home run and a 2nd place is a triple and a third place is a double and a 4th place is a single,
> Here are Zeta's offensive numbers in her short career 5 home runs, 2 triples, 4 doubles and 2 singles.
> Batting .650 13 hits in 20 times a bat. She has proven she can hit the high hard one and adjust to the change up at moments notice.
> 
> Thanks to men and women in the armed Forces for the blood and treasure and service they have spilled making in possible for us to live in this great country!


Quite the show the Zeta girl has put on! Now to put it on in the Amateur too! Looking forward to seeing what the fall brings! Thanks for sharing her successes Gundogguy!


----------



## dauber

Update on Tappy. He is 14 weeks old now. Without too much distraction he is placing, hupping, coming, sitting before eating, and making some simple retrieves. This week we have moved most all of these things to the yard too. Here is a phone vid I made yesterday.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Awesome looking pup Steve. Looks like he is loving all the attention and training exercises. Thanks for posting, it brought a big smile.


----------



## gundogguy

Dauber, you are building a good foundation in the lil guy! The only thing I might say is to start reducing the use of his name( Tappy) as a prefix for command such as "place, here and hup". He will here is name often enough when you send him on retrieves. Keep up the good work, he should be steady by Mid-August!!!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Dauber, you are building a good foundation in the lil guy! The only thing I might say is to start reducing the use of his name( Tappy) as a prefix for command such as "place, here and hup". He will here is name often enough when you send him on retrieves. Keep up the good work, he should be steady by Mid-August!!!


Yes, good point and I didn't realize I was doing it that much until watching vid.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

Smart little pup! Almost makes me want another one... almost....


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

CDN_Cocker said:


> Smart little pup! Almost makes me want another one... almost....


CDN,

TWO Cocker pups are almost no more time or trouble than one....almost.........


----------



## michgundog

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/index.php?threads/AKC-Springer-Spaniels.566799/


----------



## METRO1

Congrats mike.post few pics.i have three guys that wanted cocker pup that i couldn t provide for because shelly only had six.i will pass your number to them


----------



## michgundog

METRO1 said:


> Congrats mike.post few pics.i have three guys that wanted cocker pup that i couldn t provide for because shelly only had six.i will pass your number to them


 Thanks Gary!!


----------



## gundogguy

http://www.dogshow.ca/Docs/889_SudburyAndDistrictKennelClubInc._RunningOrder2.pdf

Dauber yous and Karen have a good trip to Burwash. Best of runs in the Amateur AA and Limit stakes!!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> http://www.dogshow.ca/Docs/889_SudburyAndDistrictKennelClubInc._RunningOrder2.pdf
> 
> Dauber yous and Karen have a good trip to Burwash. Best of runs in the Amateur AA and Limit stakes!!


Thanks. Open on Sunday too!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Thanks. Open on Sunday too!


Good Luck Team Dauber!


----------



## dauber

Zac finished 3rd but no placement. Murphy took 3rd in limited. Tough hot day in green green cover. Tomorrow we run in open with Zac and puppy with Murphy. Suppose to be cooler.


----------



## dauber

Today Zac made it thru 2 series but didn't get called back to 3rd. Murphy had a nice run and won puppy. Now we relax a bit then start sharpening up for fall. Zac needs a win and 4 points for his FC and Murphy will start his AA career.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Zac finished 3rd but no placement. Murphy took 3rd in limited. Tough hot day in green green cover. Tomorrow we run in open with Zac and puppy with Murphy. Suppose to be cooler.





dauber said:


> Today Zac made it thru 2 series but didn't get called back to 3rd. Murphy had a nice run and won puppy. Now we relax a bit then start sharpening up for fall. Zac needs a win and 4 points for his FC and Murphy will start his AA career.


Good, another time a bat. The trial game demands that you get to bat. With out it there is no way to get a hit!
Those that never do never get to know just how good their little dogs can be.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Good, another time a bat. The trial game demands that you get to bat. With out it there is no way to get a hit!
> Those that never do never get to know just how good their little dogs can be.


Absolutely Gundogguy!
Zac was a pinch too much in pack mode vs drive, he was just getting there in his 5th run but was too late to make it in the 3rd of the open. Out of the 11 contacts he had 9 singles, 2 doubles. Not enough to get into the awards. I did learn a couple more things on handling, might not matter with Zac but will be needed with Murphy when he moves up to AA. 

The goal with Murphy this spring was to gain experience, and asses where he is. He has progressed well with learning his "beat". He got experience in hot and cold conditions, snow to green. In the Limited Saturday he struggled with the humid heat and green grass scenting. Sunday was cooler but just as green and he scented comparably with the best open dogs. He had 2 homers and a triple with his 3 contacts. He now needs experience in training with honors, braces, runners, and flushes on retrieves. Some of these will come with training enough. Time for a break and start back with some foundation work. Hope everyone has a good summer.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Absolutely Gundogguy!
> Zac was a pinch too much in pack mode vs drive, he was just getting there in his 5th run but was too late to make it in the 3rd of the open. Out of the 11 contacts he had 9 singles, 2 doubles. Not enough to get into the awards. I did learn a couple more things on handling, might not matter with Zac but will be needed with Murphy when he moves up to AA.
> 
> The goal with Murphy this spring was to gain experience, and asses where he is. He has progressed well with learning his "beat". He got experience in hot and cold conditions, snow to green. In the Limited Saturday he struggled with the humid heat and green grass scenting. Sunday was cooler but just as green and he scented comparably with the best open dogs. He had 2 homers and a triple with his 3 contacts. He now needs experience in training with honors, braces, runners, and flushes on retrieves. Some of these will come with training enough. Time for a break and start back with some foundation work. Hope everyone has a good summer.


Very Fine recap of that trial, Steve. It was an invaluable learning experience for your young dogs. Very difficult to duplicate trial conditions on the home training grounds; too many distractions to mention. Plus early Summer weather and cover conditions are not exactly prime time for scenting either.

Both you and the pups can use a break from the trials and then get working towards the fall trials coming in a few months.

Team Pocket Rocket are enjoying woods walks in the early cool mornings, an occasional swim and roading off a bike. Then more longer woods walks and dummy work when the quiet season ends. 

Hope everyone has a good summer.


----------



## dauber

Here is a fantastic picture JAM took last Sunday at the Sudbury open in the 1st series. 

To set it up, this was the second contact at the start of the return course under judge Cosgrove. The return course was a downwind and Zac had just taken a decent cast to the left beyond the clump of brush. This clump was centered in our beat and I anticipated Zac coming across to the right side, but he didn't show up as the neared the clump so I went left to see what was up and the picture shows what I saw! The bird flared out front of the right gun, who hit it hard with first shot but it kept going and he dropped it with the second shot about 20 yards farther. Both Zac and I couldn't see the fall but Zac headed out confidently. When he got out near the area he hunted it hard but didn't come up with bird, he come back a bit, looked things over and went back deeper and got downwind of it and brought it back. That is when judge Cosgrove explained that the fine right gun Frank Wiseman had hit the bird hard with first shot and left quite the puff of feathers and that is where Zac first looked hard and he was impressed with how he quickly assessed it and made the retrieve. 

The interesting thing about this picture is it captures the instant Zac is going from attack or drive mode into pack mode waiting for my direction. 

JAM, we just love this picture! Karen and I are always talking after trials when Zac has the leaping flush that the cool thing is how he tucks up his front feet on the way down and plants his butt waiting for next direction. You captured it perfectly. Thank you for sharing this picture.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Here is a fantastic picture JAM took last Sunday at the Sudbury open in the 1st series.
> 
> To set it up, this was the second contact at the start of the return course under judge Cosgrove. The return course was a downwind and Zac had just taken a decent cast to the left beyond the clump of brush. This clump was centered in our beat and I anticipated Zac coming across to the right side, but he didn't show up as the neared the clump so I went left to see what was up and the picture shows what I saw! The bird flared out front of the right gun, who hit it hard with first shot but it kept going and he dropped it with the second shot about 20 yards farther. Both Zac and I couldn't see the fall but Zac headed out confidently. When he got out near the area he hunted it hard but didn't come up with bird, he come back a bit, looked things over and went back deeper and got downwind of it and brought it back. That is when judge Cosgrove explained that the fine right gun Frank Wiseman had hit the bird hard with first shot and left quite the puff of feathers and that is where Zac first looked hard and he was impressed with how he quickly assessed it and made the retrieve.
> 
> The interesting thing about this picture is it captures the instant Zac is going from attack or drive mode into pack mode waiting for my direction.
> 
> JAM, we just love this picture! Karen and I are always talking after trials when Zac has the leaping flush that the cool thing is how he tucks up his front feet on the way down and plants his butt waiting for next direction. You captured it perfectly. Thank you for sharing this picture.
> 
> View attachment 217353


AWSOME PHOTO, Steve  Perfectly framed by JAM too. Congrats.

Thanks for the play by play of the setup. Those ECS are some smart little bird dogs, no doubt.


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Here is a fantastic picture JAM took last Sunday at the Sudbury open in the 1st series.
> 
> To set it up, this was the second contact at the start of the return course under judge Cosgrove. The return course was a downwind and Zac had just taken a decent cast to the left beyond the clump of brush. This clump was centered in our beat and I anticipated Zac coming across to the right side, but he didn't show up as the neared the clump so I went left to see what was up and the picture shows what I saw! The bird flared out front of the right gun, who hit it hard with first shot but it kept going and he dropped it with the second shot about 20 yards farther. Both Zac and I couldn't see the fall but Zac headed out confidently. When he got out near the area he hunted it hard but didn't come up with bird, he come back a bit, looked things over and went back deeper and got downwind of it and brought it back. That is when judge Cosgrove explained that the fine right gun Frank Wiseman had hit the bird hard with first shot and left quite the puff of feathers and that is where Zac first looked hard and he was impressed with how he quickly assessed it and made the retrieve.
> 
> The interesting thing about this picture is it captures the instant Zac is going from attack or drive mode into pack mode waiting for my direction.
> 
> JAM, we just love this picture! Karen and I are always talking after trials when Zac has the leaping flush that the cool thing is how he tucks up his front feet on the way down and plants his butt waiting for next direction. You captured it perfectly. Thank you for sharing this picture.
> 
> View attachment 217353


Team Dauber, I thoroughly enjoyed watching you and your pups work last weekend. The cover was so "nice" I didn't get a lot of chances to get pictures of the dogs working - only grass moving. So glad I was able to get this one of Zac. He's AWESOME!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is a fantastic picture JAM took last Sunday at the Sudbury open in the 1st series.
> 
> To set it up, this was the second contact at the start of the return course under judge Cosgrove. The return course was a downwind and Zac had just taken a decent cast to the left beyond the clump of brush. This clump was centered in our beat and I anticipated Zac coming across to the right side, but he didn't show up as the neared the clump so I went left to see what was up and the picture shows what I saw! The bird flared out front of the right gun, who hit it hard with first shot but it kept going and he dropped it with the second shot about 20 yards farther. Both Zac and I couldn't see the fall but Zac headed out confidently. When he got out near the area he hunted it hard but didn't come up with bird, he come back a bit, looked things over and went back deeper and got downwind of it and brought it back. That is when judge Cosgrove explained that the fine right gun Frank Wiseman had hit the bird hard with first shot and left quite the puff of feathers and that is where Zac first looked hard and he was impressed with how he quickly assessed it and made the retrieve.
> 
> The interesting thing about this picture is it captures the instant Zac is going from attack or drive mode into pack mode waiting for my direction.
> 
> JAM, we just love this picture! Karen and I are always talking after trials when Zac has the leaping flush that the cool thing is how he tucks up his front feet on the way down and plants his butt waiting for next direction. You captured it perfectly. Thank you for sharing this picture.
> 
> View attachment 217353


Great Photo Jam Very nice!
Reading the account of this action in the series was very interesting to me. Knowing all the players in the action, Dauber and his dog Zac, The judge Bill Cosgrove who was the breeder of our 1st FC, FC AFC Alex, and the gun on the right wing Frank Wiseman, owner of FC CFC Zeta's sire FC NFC Cliff. always interesting to see the spaniel family hanging in there.


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## gundogguy

Hey the lazy days of summer are upon us . Thank God for Brexist I may visit soon. Anybody thinking about a UK import? The Glorious 12th of August is fast approaching.


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## gundogguy

Nice little vid of the 2016 Cocker Nationals Nice dog Please under stand Uk shooting requiremnets are much different than American trial gunning standards. 
_If I had a "bucket list item it would be to shoot and English spaniel trial"
Then we would know!_


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Nice little vid of the 2016 Cocker Nationals Nice dog Please under stand Uk shooting requiremnets are much different than American trial gunning standards.
> _If I had a "bucket list item it would be to shoot and English spaniel trial"
> Then we would know!_
> ]


Nice little cocker. Yes they certainly gun different there! You'd have to change out your choke tubes!


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## dauber

This dog was running with low head. Is that more common over there? I can't remember if the older Paul French videos showed low heads like that.


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## NATTY BUMPO

I had a question for Hal too.

The handler kept going with a hand signal all the way around. He kept thrusting his right hand forward, palm down. Practically 100% of the time the dog was on the ground.

What was he signaling to the dog?


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> This dog was running with low head. Is that more common over there? I can't remember if the older Paul French videos showed low heads like that.


Dauber it would almost be blasphemous for Paul French videos to promote a high headed stylized Spaniel running in championship. Folks here appreciated that high head, air scenting dogs along with air bourn flushes and even Zac's pirouetting. Trust me it would be frown on over there. I heard things like "damn ballerina spaniels the yanks have" 



NATTY BUMPO said:


> I had a question for Hal too.
> 
> The handler kept going with a hand signal all the way around. He kept thrusting his right hand forward, palm down. Practically 100% of the time the dog was on the ground.
> 
> What was he signaling to the dog?


Not really a signal, just a constant reminder.
Two items are at work here,
1. The use of the hand palm down is a stylized cultural behavior, it is just part of the way UK handlers run their dogs. There is UK ex-patriot back east, I do not need to mention his name, he and his wife have supported the trial game for years here, good guys, Dauber knows him as well, that handles the same way as the gent in the video. hard to break old cultural habits.
2. They have a constant concern that the dog is going to punch out down field and pass a damn rabbit. Think back when your dogs move a rabbit at pheasant ranges you probable did not get a shot or much more than a passing look. The UK handler always think rabbit first then game birds, consequently they are always keeping dogs heads down and in close, that right palm down is a que to dog that they need to be beating about,as they call it, and not running off.
Thank goodness FB Springers and FB Cockers easily adapt to North American standards. The fact that Spaniels excel here and in the UK is a real tribute to their intelligence, drive, versatility!
Natty you made a great observation, Thanks


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## dauber

I figured it had rabbits behind it. 

It is amazing how fast they can adapt to higher head running here. 

Thanks Gundogguy!


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## NATTY BUMPO

Yes, Thanks for that, GunDogGuy.

A guy can sure learn a bunch about cultural differences between GB and the colonies if he keeps his ears and eyes open here on TSC ll. Good stuff.


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## dauber

We had a little retrieve work this morning with multiple factors. Beautiful 60 degree morning!


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Seth,
> If it is an American cocker then about the only person I would contact is Trish Jackson as Michigundog says. Fritz got his from her. She did a seminar this spring in Wisconsin and had hands on most of the Am cockers there and she will give you an honest assessment of them. Her website is http://www.tjmadisongundogs.com
> 
> She ran one in the cocker nationals last fall. The English cockers that I have are similar sized and a little more athletic.


Nancy Galant in Battle Creek,Mi would also be a contact for AM Cockers. She is a close friend of Trish Jackson , I'm sure she can be found at Face Book. https://www.facebook.com/nancy.gallant.3?fref=ts

I have trained a 1/2 dozen or so and have judged Trish's dog and Nancy's dog in test. Really more of novelty breed. I get it if it is something that your wife had as a kid and she is looking for a pet. Personally I, would keep performance expectations on the low side and just have fun with the dog as a pet!.

Now if you were to swing back to the Field bred side of the Cocker breed performance expectation can be much higher. and that also opens you up to a lot more breeder options.


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## michgundog

HankVIII said:


> When and where do you have your hunt test?


Normally, in the spring in SE Mich. Unfortunately, we had to cancel this past spring stay tuned early next year for details. There is one coming up in PA some time in August, when I get the info I'll post it on here for you.


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## dauber

Dante turned 13 years old today. He might be pretty much retired from hunting due to hearing loss except in open ground, but he still enjoys some training birds. Today he had 2 flushes and a retrieve.


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## michgundog

SPORTSMEN’S SPANIEL CLUB OF CALUMET

A.K.C. Licensed English Springer Spaniel Hunt Test
August 27th Event# 2016368906
August 28th Event# 2016368907

To be held at a private farm, Morris, IL
(See accompanying map)

Open to all AKC Registered flushing breeds six months or older as of the day of testing. This licensed hunt test will be held under the Rules and Regulations of the AKC.

Entries are limited to 30 dogs each day.
In the event the total number of entries exceeds 30, Spaniel breed entries received prior to August 5th shall be given priority.

STAKES, SCHEDULE, AND ENTRY FEE
Junior/Senior/Master - $60.00
Beginning at 7:30 AM each day.
Junior land followed by Senior Land, Master land, Master hunt dead, Senior hunt dead, Master water, Senior water, and Junior water.

COURSES AND BIRDS
Junior – Chukar or Pigeon
Senior & Master – Pheasant or Chukar

PRIZES
AKC Rosettes to all dogs earning a passing score

ENTRIES
Entries made in advance are to be sent with checks made payable to SSCC to:
Brian Bilotta; Hunt Test Secretary
325 Kent Ct., Naperville, IL 60540
Entries close with the FT Secretary at: 6:00p.m. August 17th, 2016
No phone or fax entries accepted

JUDGES
Saturday and Sunday:
Tim Baker – Springfield, MO
Frank Hauenschild – Crete, IL

Gun Capitain: Ken Willis

Game Steward: Don Maue

Marshal: Brian Bilotta

Contact : John Neubaum for additional info: [email protected]



HUNT TEST COMMITTEE
Chairman: John Neubaum
Secretary: Brian Bilotta
Don Maue, Ruth Zane, Dave Hopkins, Jerry Lizalek, John Zahorik

CLUB OFFICERS
President: Don Maue
Vice President: Ruth Zane
Sec. & Tres.: Brian Bilotta


Dogs may be moved up to a higher Test level (in a second event) if a title is acquired after entries have closed in the second Test, subject to the approval of the Hunting Test Committee of the second event, the availability of birds, payment of the difference, if any, in entry fees, and provided also that the dog is moved up at least one-half hour prior to the start of the second Test. Dogs so moved up will be placed at the end of the drawn running order.

The Sportsmen’s Spaniel Club of Calumet would like to extend a warm invitation to all flushing dog owners, handlers, and trainers to join us for our inaugural Hunt Test event. We welcome all flushing breeds to this event and will be striving for an enjoyable weekend for all.

Food
Lunch will be served on the grounds for $6.00 and will include hamburgers, sausages, chips and drinks.

Local Hotels:
Clarion Inn – Joliet, IL Clarion
Days Inn – Morris, IL Days Inn, Morris


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## gundogguy

Back from 2nd City. Time to start rnning
the Spaniels.. Pics and vids to follow..


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Back from 2nd City. Time to start rnning
> the Spaniels.. Pics and vids to follow..


Yup about that time of year. Time to train in the tough conditions. 

I had a trip to western Minnesota last weekend. Being grounds chair I wanted to see the grounds for this years NCC and get a handle on where the courses and water were going to be. Some very nice warm season grass fields for 1st and 2nd series. A couple of options for 3rd and 4th series. The 5th looks to be in a wooded and should showcase the best of the cockers. 

Then Sunday had a training day. Very nice to have Mrs Dauber handle Zac and I ran Murphy in his first brace. Murph needs a little more work on where his best is! Lol.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Yup about that time of year. Time to train in the tough conditions.
> 
> I had a trip to western Minnesota last weekend. Being grounds chair I wanted to see the grounds for this years NCC and get a handle on where the courses and water were going to be. Some very nice warm season grass fields for 1st and 2nd series. A couple of options for 3rd and 4th series. The 5th looks to be in a wooded and should showcase the best of the cockers.
> 
> Then Sunday had a training day. Very nice to have Mrs Dauber handle Zac and I ran Murphy in his first brace. Murph needs a little more work on where his best is! Lol.


Great dogs are made in July and August. Due to the conditions they have overcome to be successful.


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## dauber

After a 45 minute run in the woods and a couple woodcock flushes and 5 grouse flushes we stopped and did a little marking with factors work while tired. This is an 80 yard retrieve from my launcher thru a sedge marsh, bracken fern, behind a white pine. Zac nailed it.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> After a 45 minute run in the woods and a couple woodcock flushes and 5 grouse flushes we stopped and did a little marking with factors work while tired. This is an 80 yard retrieve from my launcher thru a sedge marsh, bracken fern, behind a white pine. Zac nailed it.


WOW. Impressive stuff.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> After a 45 minute run in the woods and a couple woodcock flushes and 5 grouse flushes we stopped and did a little marking with factors work while tired. This is an 80 yard retrieve from my launcher thru a sedge marsh, bracken fern, behind a white pine. Zac nailed it.


Exactly, that's what I'm talking about. 



gundogguy said:


> Great dogs are made in July and August. Due to the conditions they have overcome to be successful.


Great example Dauber!


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## dauber

Good chance today to work em in some 80 degree temps. Gave them a 40 minute free run in the field with a couple creek crossings to keep pace up. Put the pup and old guy up and did a couple 65-95 yard marks followed by a couple dead bird finds, one downwind, one crosswind for each of the other 3. We don't get these temps often to get them experience scenting when stressed by high temps. 

Here are a couple vids of Zac and Murph on their second marks. For Zac his first mark was to the right of the one in the video. Then his next one was behind 2 bales so he couldn't see the bumper all the way down and had to deal with the suction of the first one. 
Murphy is learning the ropes with this stuff so both of his were down a "lane" of bales, but his first was a shorter 65 yard mark. The one in the video is about 95 yards right by the first so he has to decipher the old scent and trust his eyes and nose.


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## dauber

Probably last day with the big round bales as factors. Worked on some long ones today on a slight incline. Here is Zac on about a 150 yard retrieve. We've been going here about every 5 days.


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## gundogguy

The war princess Zeta and her side kick Reggie just enjoying dogs


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## gundogguy

Met a prospective spanieler on line recently. Many facets of spanieling were covered. I mentioned that training was starting to crank up for fall activities, hunting and trialing.
Does anyone have any video on brace they might share a link with.
This is all I have These training vids almost have to take place in winter or summer to be able to see much of any thing other cover moving and dogs bouncing here and there, with birds popping up.
This is all i have that the layperson would have chance at seeing and even begin to understand. I may have posted this before.




 Zeta with an honor and a retrieve





 Smoke with an honor and a retrieve

Hal


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## dauber

I don't have anything else for good brace vids. Usually takes all of us training to pull off a brace, then no one to video. Will have to try at judging seminar if we run brace work there.


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## gundogguy

Any one training with cones or buckets. I know Springer folks who have been training this way for some time, but now I see the Cocker folks are delving into the practice. 
California dog and handle.


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Any one training with cones or buckets. I know Springer folks who have been training this way for some time, but now I see the Cocker folks are delving into the practice.
> California dog and handle.



A friend of mine is delving into this method. Appears very much like a retriever step by step program. Very heavy into collar use. It does produce wide, consistent running dogs, if that's what floats your boat. 

I have nothing against this method, but one of the main reasons I moved away from retriever games is I enjoy more "the art" of spaniel training.


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## gundogguy

dauber said:


> A friend of mine is delving into this method. Appears very much like a retriever step by step program. Very heavy into collar use. It does produce wide, consistent running dogs, if that's what floats your boat.
> 
> I have nothing against this method, but one of the main reasons I moved away from retriever games is I enjoy more "the art" of spaniel training.


I am in agreement with you on this subject. It is structured process that will produce results in capable hands. Just as our retriever friends develop long range precision using a "forceful training regime". As you have found developing the Art Form is a very enjoyable pat time.
Over the years we have made Spaniels (FC) using the collar. It was a learning process to say the least. My last 3 Springers have all been non-collar dogs, with Zeta a 5 time field trial winner, Reggie and Quessa well bred well manored dogs though lacking that stylish "hey Mr Judge look at me attitude".

One of my biggest concerns is down the road when some of these dogs are running and winning trials start having pups. In my own case Reggie and Zeta come out of breeding stock that does not have any experience with e collar training. I was very clear on what their parentage was capable of. This form of quartering development really can hide the true running style of a particular dog. True flushing capabilities may also be affected, it may be to early to tell but some of the attributes will be affected. Personally for me I would be hard pressed to acquired a Springer out of dogs that had been manipulated with the e collar and developed using a structure approach, other than the structure of place board training.

It's good to have these kinds of discussions about the what haps in the Spaniel world Let us all know what you see and here. Hie- on!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> This form of quartering development really can hide the true running style of a particular dog. True flushing capabilities may also be affected, it may be to early to tell but some of the attributes will be affected. Personally for me I would be hard pressed to acquired a Springer out of dogs that had been manipulated with the e collar and developed using a structure approach, other than the structure of place board training.
> 
> It's good to have these kinds of discussions about the what haps in the Spaniel world Let us all know what you see and here. Hie- on!


At trials Karen and I are constantly evaluating dogs as potential sires or dams to future pups. Trying to decipher between natural abilities vs trained in abilities can be tough without knowing how trained what and when. 

A month or so ago I was in on an email discussion with a couple of multiple NFC handlers and NFC owners (not sure how I got on this list??) and natural talents that "may be" being lost was the main topic. Their concern is "losing some of the great natural hunt" these top spaniels have in favor of dogs that can take more pressure in training and preform flawlessly. One example one if them gave was about many of his earlier dogs that would rather hunt than retrieve. He said they would pick up a bird them take off hunting again, or couldn't pass up a flush on the way to a retrieve. He said granted that doesn't "look good" in a trial, but is exactly the trait he thinks separates spaniels from retrievers. 

So many of these subtitles is what makes judging spaniel trials interesting, difficult, frustrating and important. Our judging seminar in a couple weeks should be interesting with Jason Givens and Paul McGagh. 

Good discussion GDG.


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## JAM

GDG, I was going to watch the video but it says, "This video is private".



gundogguy said:


> Any one training with cones or buckets. I know Springer folks who have been training this way for some time, but now I see the Cocker folks are delving into the practice.
> California dog and handle.


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## gundogguy

Yes it is gone. To bad nice clip really demonstrated the process in action. It did not demonstrate the corrections with the collar needed form the behavior by the dog. It was as usual a dog running the field/course as requested. Much like an agility course. Dollars to donuts the handler had some agility experience. which is OK by the way.


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## gundogguy

Here is Paul Fuller vid with Jim Keller who is featured here in this long video toward the end he demonstrates, a dog maybe running the bucket drill Maybe this will help clarify. Interesting program that Fuller did here on hunting and trialing spaniels.


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## chrokeva

Oh wow I am way to clumsy to be involved in agility! but thanks for the compliment? 
Seriously although my dog is collar conditioned very few (if any) collar corrections were used in training her to run buckets so that is wrong. It is very time consuming and repetitive though. Many reps are done at every bucket (starting with two place boards at the first bucket within a few feet and slowly moving further from the bucket and removing the place boards one at a time while lengthening the distance from the bucket and shortening it back up as needed). After that bucket is 100% you can add another bucket in the same way (up close with place boards and close in) and so on one bucket at a time. As I understand it bucket drills have been used in training spaniels for many many years in this area (Jim Dobbs kind of started it here way back). It is a yard drill nothing less nothing more and yes it is structured training so not sure what to say about that concern. One big difference between how Jim Keller demos buckets and how I was taught to do buckets is that I NEVER used or will use birds or cover in this type of drill. When we go out to the field on birds my dog gets her head as you DO NOT want a dog running a barrel pattern when hunting birds but hopefully we are communicating a bit better. Hope this clarifies a few things (at least as it pertains to myself).


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## michgundog

chrokeva said:


> Oh wow I am way to clumsy to be involved in agility! but thanks for the compliment?
> Seriously although my dog is collar conditioned very few (if any) collar corrections were used in training her to run buckets so that is wrong. It is very time consuming and repetitive though. Many reps are done at every bucket (starting with two place boards at the first bucket within a few feet and slowly moving further from the bucket and removing the place boards one at a time while lengthening the distance from the bucket and shortening it back up as needed). After that bucket is 100% you can add another bucket in the same way (up close with place boards and close in) and so on one bucket at a time. As I understand it bucket drills have been used in training spaniels for many many years in this area (Jim Dobbs kind of started it here way back). It is a yard drill nothing less nothing more and yes it is structured training so not sure what to say about that concern. One big difference between how Jim Keller demos buckets and how I was taught to do buckets is that I NEVER used or will use birds or cover in this type of drill. When we go out to the field on birds my dog gets her head as you DO NOT want a dog running a barrel pattern when hunting birds but hopefully we are communicating a bit better. Hope this clarifies a few things (at least as it pertains to myself).


Did you have spaniels in your program? IMO it looks like a great technique to teach a dog to run a robotic pattern in light cover. Spaniels I've had always seemed to have good natural quartering instincts though. But even then it kinda goes out the window when getting in waist high or higher cover to find birds.


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## chrokeva

Yes this is all spaniels. You are right it is a way to run a robotic pattern in light cover. My dog does have a very natural quartering instinct however over the past year or so she has been getting away from me more and more (i.e. self-employed) so this drill helps to instill her to remain close and gives me the ability to work on some of the things that have been giving me a problem when running in the field (timing, control, re-casting, steady drills, poison birds, etc all with dummies). In the end once she gets out in heavy cover (or any cover for that matter) and on birds much of this will go out the window and we are expecting that. Again this is yard work like heeling and place boards are yard work.


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## gundogguy

Hey Chrokeva



chrokeva said:


> Oh wow I am way to clumsy to be involved in agility! but thanks for the compliment?
> can add another bucket in the same way (up close with place boards and close in) and so on one bucket at a time. As I understand it bucket drills have been used in training spaniels for many many years in this area (Jim Dobbs kind of started it here way back). It is a yard drill nothing less nothing more and yes it is structured training so not sure what to say about that concern. One big difference between how Jim Keller demos buckets and how I was taught to do buckets is that I NEVER used or will use birds or cover in this type of drill. When we go out to the field on birds my dog gets her head as you DO NOT want a dog running a barrel pattern when hunting birds but hopefully we are communicating a bit better. Hope this clarifies a few things (at least as it pertains to myself).


You finally made it to the Michigan forum. Yes it was Jim Dobbs that introduced the bucket drill to the spaniel community back in the 1990's. He did it at the same time he was introducing the place board system of training he was tying those two activities together.
In post the information on the bucket drill was basically was an attempt to share ideas. I am neither for or against any form of training that helps us communicate with our dogs what our intentions are.
Seeing you be in California the time difference will allow you to post when most of us are fast asleep,
much like the UK dog training forum. 
I would have one request that you :free: the video up so more folks might see it. You may have the most distinct and clear vid of the bucket drill in action, in fact after much searching you really have the only video on the that particular activity.
Hal


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## dauber

Welcome to the Spaniel Corner II chrokeva. 

Thank you for the explanation of how you are using the bucket program. Makes complete sense that not everyone who uses "buckets" is completely into a total program. Much the same that I use boards and am not into a "program". 
Thanks for your explanation!!
Steve


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## chrokeva

Thank you for the welcome. Truth is I have been keeping an eye on this forum from the sideline for awhile because there is so much great information on here and when I saw this post come up I could not help but jump in .
In this video it just shows us running straight through the buckets but at times in training this I will have someone throw and dummy to work on steady, recast, or have a dummy off to the side that she can see and give her a toot toot when she looks like she is going to go for that dummy to turn her around the bucket and get her to continue on the buckets until she gets to the last bucket where she finds the dummy that is always there. Then I may turn her around and send her on a line to the dummy that was off to the side. Now that she is pretty much finished in the training on this drill we will not be using bucket drills any longer (as stated by others I am sure overdoing this type of drill could cause a whole other set of problem). We are now back out in the field with no buckets and live birds and believe me her pattern looks nothing like a bucket drill but I do feel me and my dog are more in sync then before.
To me the dog does not see buckets as hunting in anyway and it is a yard drill that allows me to work on things that MAY come up in the field and since she loves any sort of attention it is something she enjoys as well.....other dogs may look at this drill differently.
I re-uploaded the video here.


----------



## gundogguy

chrokeva said:


> I re-uploaded the video here.


Thanks Chrokeva for re posting this video. 
Now as I had mentioned this may be the one of two vids in existence on the training a spaniel for questing in this manner. None of the other varieties of dogs use this system or would want to I would venture to say.
Now in your vid your Bridgett dog perform fairly well I would like to see the earlier training sessions of her or other spaniels as they are learning this exercise. Do you know of any bucket drill training vids that exist?


----------



## dauber

chrokeva said:


> Yes this is all spaniels. You are right it is a way to run a robotic pattern in light cover. My dog does have a very natural quartering instinct however over the past year or so she has been getting away from me more and more (i.e. self-employed) so this drill helps to instill her to remain close and gives me the ability to work on some of the things that have been giving me a problem when running in the field (timing, control, re-casting, steady drills, poison birds, etc all with dummies). In the end once she gets out in heavy cover (or any cover for that matter) and on birds much of this will go out the window and we are expecting that. Again this is yard work like heeling and place boards are yard work.



Very interesting chrokeva. There are lots of ways to work on widening pattern, many require a helper or 2 who understand what's going on. I already use multiple boards and begin teaching "overs and backs" going board to board. Basically the bucket is to teach dog to turn upfield. Same thing the shake and bake method does but needs helpers that can read dogs. 
You are right too, don't take these cockers much time and they are running objective to objective right up the field. Just got back from long weekend running my guys on sharptail grouse in the open sand plains. They adapt to various wind directions quickly. 
View attachment 222216

The crew 

View attachment 222217

Karen and Smoke waiting their turn. 

View attachment 222218

A look at the sharpie cover with Murphy


----------



## chrokeva

gundogguy said:


> Now in your vid your Bridgett dog perform fairly well I would like to see the earlier training sessions of her or other spaniels as they are learning this exercise. Do you know of any bucket drill training vids that exist?


Unfortunately I did not take any videos on training with buckets as it was kind of like watching paint dry (very repetitive and time consuming). I will keep my eyes open for one. Maybe I will try to make a video that at least shows the set up with cones and how we started if anyone is interested.

Thanks for the photos of the crew Dauber....they all seem to have big smiles on there faces .


----------



## dauber

chrokeva said:


> Thanks for the photos of the crew Dauber....they all seem to have big smiles on there faces .


Haha! They are plotting how they can get me latter, who is going to distract me while one of the others pulls supper on the floor and they all get some, little devils.

Like watching your videos of Bridgett!


----------



## gundogguy

chrokeva said:


> Unfortunately I did not take any videos on training with buckets as it was kind of like* watching paint dry (very repetitive and time consuming)*. I will keep my eyes open for one. Maybe I will try to make a video that at least shows the set up with cones and how we started if anyone is interested.
> 
> Thanks for the photos of the crew Dauber....they all seem to have big smiles on there faces .


*Like paint drying, ha* similar to FF, Collar conditioning, or place board training. Videos do not have to be entertaining, most notable they should be instructive. Give me dull and boring any time, most of dog training is just that. My point is there is no archival information on the subject of the bucket drill. Ha your video is the "lone survivor".


----------



## dauber

Here is a picture of Murphy after a nice find and flush of a woodcock this morning. Much nicer being a bit cooler. 

View attachment 222601


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is a picture of Murphy after a nice find and flush of a woodcock this morning. Much nicer being a bit cooler.
> 
> View attachment 222601


The Murph getting his little Cocker brain filled up in the ferns. Good stuff.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> The Murph getting his little Cocker brain filled up in the ferns. Good stuff.


Yes, part of the plan in his development. Until now 18 month old Murphy has been in controlled situations such as yard, training field, puppy trials. This summers goals were to get him in the open ground of sharptail habitat and see if he passed the test. These ferns make it impossible for him to see me and all I see is the ferns move. He did well the last couple days with the 2 flushes per day I've been getting him. Now back to training field today at Blackbriar. Hie on!


----------



## Gavan

Nice video Chokreva and nice work on the buckets. Couple of comments. Only "fault" I noticed is that I wouldn't put the dummy where the dog doesn't have to go around the final bucket properly to get it. Seems counterproductive. I want the dog to go around the last bucket and make a proper turn up the field to get the reward (dummy). My two cents on the buckets is that teaches a dog to turn up the field and run a figure eight pattern rather than pancake flat in an upwind. Windshield wiper patterns are a waste of energy regardless and I prefer to have the dog come towards me as it crosses in front as opposed to running flat across to the other gun. You can stagger the buckets however you wish to increase or decrease the dogs "bite" up the course as it goes through the buckets.

You can also teach the dog to watch you as it crosses by double casting them back around the same bucket, calling them into hup at your feet and then casting them to continue, hupping them remotely on the bucket course, etc. Some spaniels inherently turn back on one side or the other and you can fix that "bad turn" with the buckets. The figure eight pattern reduces that turn back or back casting by taking the flatness out of the cast. 

Bucket training is controlled exercise for the dog and handler and once the dog is taught to run the buckets a novice handler can get the dog good programmed exercise without creating problems for themselves. Sure beats going to the local park and turning the dog loose to run on it's own and ignore the handler. Thanks again for the video.


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> Sure beats going to the local park and turning the dog loose to run on it's own and ignore the handler. Thanks again for the video.


Hey now...that's my training program turn em loose in a hayfield instead of park, let em run where they want. 

Just had a big "discussion/debate" this weekend with my training friend about this in a crosswind. My feeling is stepping on ground their nose has covered is a waste as well. 

I'm going to bring this up Friday at the judges seminar. I wonder if there will be a difference between cockers and springers as well.


----------



## michgundog

View attachment 223109




Here's a pup my boys kept from our recent litter. So far so good...


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> View attachment 223109
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a pup my boys kept from our recent litter. So far so good...



Beautiful. What did the boys name him?


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Beautiful. What did the boys name him?


Thanks NattyB, oddly enough in the heat of the summer, they decided to name him "Eskimo"....(??)


----------



## JAM

michgundog said:


> View attachment 223109
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a pup my boys kept from our recent litter. So far so good...


What a beautiful pup! Great name, too. Escanaba High School athletes are the "Escanaba Eskymos". That's where my family and I went to school so I'm a big fan already of your new pup.


----------



## Gavan

Dauber, the crosswind separates the dogs very often when judging a springer field trial. Many dogs will run flat in an upwind naturally and some run a beautiful natural downwind but the crosswind pattern is always a result of teamwork, or lack thereof, between handler and dog. It is a test relating to ground coverage and the handlers understanding of proper wind use. Trials run upwind/downwind are not a true test of dog and handler.


----------



## dauber

Gavan, absolutely! Hence the discussion that turned into debate. I know the number of judges I'll run under is shrinking rapidly.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Dauber, the crosswind separates the dogs very often when judging a springer field trial. Many dogs will run flat in an upwind naturally and some run a beautiful natural downwind but the crosswind pattern is always a result of teamwork, or lack thereof, between handler and dog. It is a test relating to ground coverage and the handlers understanding of proper wind use. Trials run upwind/downwind are not a true test of dog and handler.


Absolutely and in the Springer and Cocker community I know that is the standard, as it should be. However I have mixed thinking when the subject of pattern and range come up when it is applied to the Cocker. 
1st off when running the Cocker, one should never be viewed the Cocker as miniature Springers, they are a breed which has a definite deference and application to work in front of them.. As I have stated before I have no opinion either yea or nay as to dogs being trained using the bucket drill. Same goes for a quantity of non-slip retriever training drills FF and or collar use. However I have noticed that more and more pressure is being placed on the Cocker community to force their dogs wider and down field farther.
Personally i would to see the little dogs run similar to dogs in their blood line, their Grand Sires and Grand Dams. 
(I'll finish after Steve's quote)



dauber said:


> Gavan, absolutely! Hence the discussion that turned into debate. I know the number of judges I'll run under is shrinking rapidly.


One of the influential factors in the Cocker game right now and it has been a factor for some time, it is the fact that the Springers folks that are judging just do not see enough Cockers, and are,all be it honestly, drawing a comparison to what they have seen in Springers and applying to the Cocker. 
Having gun Cocker trials for 10 yrs I was always amazed at the conversations I might have a judge at say the course break. And it usually went like this_, Judge_ Wow neat little dogs!, I'm not used to seeing the dogs up this close, they do not seem to run very big. _Judges question _ How would you judge that ? Now Gavan knows that in this case a Gun gives no answer. my usual response was uh-huh that affirming "the neat little dog" statement but never answering the question. Eventually at placements the biggest running dogs,regardless of the actual work in bird finding and responsiveness went home with the hardware.
If it were me i would stay true to the reasons I was attracted to the breed in the first place and not try to make it something that it is not. Behavior Modification techniques can be very helpful in bringing out true talent in a dog,but it can also be used to make a dog some thing that it is not>


----------



## Gavan

gundogguy said:


> Absolutely and in the Springer and Cocker community I know that is the standard, as it should be. However I have mixed thinking when the subject of pattern and range come up when it is applied to the Cocker.
> 1st off when running the Cocker, one should never be viewed the Cocker as miniature Springers, they are a breed which has a definite deference and application to work in front of them.. As I have stated before I have no opinion either yea or nay as to dogs being trained using the bucket drill. Same goes for a quantity of non-slip retriever training drills FF and or collar use. However I have noticed that more and more pressure is being placed on the Cocker community to force their dogs wider and down field farther.
> Personally i would to see the little dogs run similar to dogs in their blood line, their Grand Sires and Grand Dams.
> (I'll finish after Steve's quote)
> 
> 
> 
> One of the influential factors in the Cocker game right now and it has been a factor for some time, it is the fact that the Springers folks that are judging just do not see enough Cockers, and are,all be it honestly, drawing a comparison to what they have seen in Springers and applying to the Cocker.
> Having gun Cocker trials for 10 yrs I was always amazed at the conversations I might have a judge at say the course break. And it usually went like this_, Judge_ Wow neat little dogs!, I'm not used to seeing the dogs up this close, they do not seem to run very big. _Judges question _ How would you judge that ? Now Gavan knows that in this case a Gun gives no answer. my usual response was uh-huh that affirming "the neat little dog" statement but never answering the question. Eventually at placements the biggest running dogs,regardless of the actual work in bird finding and responsiveness went home with the hardware.
> If it were me I would stay true to the reasons I was attracted to the breed in the first place and not try to make it something that it is not. Behavior Modification techniques can be very helpful in bringing out true talent in a dog,but it can also be used to make a dog some thing that it is not>


I don't own a cocker so any comments I make are from the perspective of a springer owner/trainer/hunter/trialer/judge. I can see your point gdg about springer people judging cockers and expecting them to run like springers. I guess if you have a cocker that runs like a cocker you best not ask a springer guy to judge and then have half the field be big running springer-like cockers.Can't believe a judge asked a gun or anyone else 'how would you judge that" about ANYTHING.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Absolutely and in the Springer and Cocker community I know that is the standard, as it should be. However I have mixed thinking when the subject of pattern and range come up when it is applied to the Cocker.
> 1st off when running the Cocker, one should never be viewed the Cocker as miniature Springers, they are a breed which has a definite deference and application to work in front of them.. As I have stated before I have no opinion either yea or nay as to dogs being trained using the bucket drill. Same goes for a quantity of non-slip retriever training drills FF and or collar use. However I have noticed that more and more pressure is being placed on the Cocker community to force their dogs wider and down field farther.
> Personally i would to see the little dogs run similar to dogs in their blood line, their Grand Sires and Grand Dams.
> (I'll finish after Steve's quote)
> 
> 
> 
> One of the influential factors in the Cocker game right now and it has been a factor for some time, it is the fact that the Springers folks that are judging just do not see enough Cockers, and are,all be it honestly, drawing a comparison to what they have seen in Springers and applying to the Cocker.
> Having gun Cocker trials for 10 yrs I was always amazed at the conversations I might have a judge at say the course break. And it usually went like this_, Judge_ Wow neat little dogs!, I'm not used to seeing the dogs up this close, they do not seem to run very big. _Judges question _ How would you judge that ? Now Gavan knows that in this case a Gun gives no answer. my usual response was uh-huh that affirming "the neat little dog" statement but never answering the question. Eventually at placements the biggest running dogs,regardless of the actual work in bird finding and responsiveness went home with the hardware.
> If it were me i would stay true to the reasons I was attracted to the breed in the first place and not try to make it something that it is not. Behavior Modification techniques can be very helpful in bringing out true talent in a dog,but it can also be used to make a dog some thing that it is not>


Well said GDG. I have no opinion on the various training methods either and have encouraged some who I feel are more suited to these methods to give them a go, plus I'm fascinated by the step by step process. It is the "judging" aspect just as you state that is my concern. As long as judging is consistent and follows the cocker "Green Book" how they are trained shouldn't matter and doesn't matter to me.

I have been involved an some interesting emails this summer about cockers and the important characteristics of the field bred ECS. It took us back to some of the original traits of the early cockers here is a statement from one of the original US cocker men.

_"A few generations ago we embraced their diversity and varied styles. Their diversity was their main appeal. More and more these days I hear how "proper" Cockers run A certain distance and look a certain way. Anyone not conforming not understanding proper Cockers.

Perhaps my judging highlight was with Bill Zipp judging a varied field of good English Cockers, big ones, little ones. Tight workers and big runners alike....and one little American Cocker, and watching the American cocker have its day.

If we are not carful we will lose what drew most of us to the breed in the first place."
_
Then we got into more specific traits.

_"I ended up bringing Maesydderwen Griffen over in "92". As a young dog. He
wasn't easy to keep a handle on, he was more than a handful and would not
have suited many but he left his mark on both sides of the ocean. I would
say his offspring in general were toned down in comparison. He produced many
very small fiery bitches. Including freckles who won the 2000 Wisconsin
National.

Like plenty of Cockers with great drive, he would rather hunt than retrieve,
which makes training more complicated. I feel We need to be carful not to
sacrifice drive for trainability. Do we still have these kind of males?"
_
This is a trait I have seen in some of my early cockers that were born in the late 90's. Color also came up...I understand it is a hot topic in the UK and any of the black and white, and liver and white are not run being they think they are too close to springers. They prefer mostly solid colors and dogs 26# and under. The speculation of how the FBECS was resurrected in the UK back in the 70's was interesting too, and some of the breeds mentioned that were outcrossed would amaze.


----------



## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> .Can't believe a judge asked a gun or anyone else 'how would you judge that" about ANYTHING.



I know how you feel it blew me over as well. No Names of course but hiz honour was a Buckeye!



dauber said:


> _
> Perhaps my judging highlight was with Bill Zipp judging a varied field of good English Cockers, big ones, little ones. Tight workers and big runners alike....and one little American Cocker, and watching the American cocker have its day.
> 
> If we are not carful we will lose what drew most of us to the breed in the first place."
> _
> 
> _
> _


Bill Zipp was a marvelous dog man! Just outstanding!


----------



## dauber

That variability is something that has interested me for a long time. The constant is the drive to hunt, but the natural pattern is quite varied between my very British dog and my 2 more Americanized ones. The reason I choose the 3 last ones I did was to cover the various styles of cocker and train them.


----------



## gundogguy

Just to bring some prospective to this discussion and also for comparison sake check out this link to this Cocker running in the UK 2014 National Champs. In the UK dogs need to win a trial to qualify for the Nat. Champs in that year qualifications have to be met on an annual basis.
The style and pace of this dog a good example of where the FB Cockers blood line comes from and how they work in their native country. The cultural differences between the UK and USA are huge when it comes what is the standard, hopefully the breed can settle some where in the middle, through thoughful training & development


----------



## michgundog

JAM said:


> What a beautiful pup! Great name, too. Escanaba High School athletes are the "Escanaba Eskymos". That's where my family and I went to school so I'm a big fan already of your new pup.


Thanks JAM, I'll him have up to Blackbriar one of these days so you will see him up close.


----------



## Gavan

gundogguy said:


> Just to bring some prospective to this discussion and also for comparison sake check out this link to this Cocker running in the UK 2014 National Champs. In the UK dogs need to win a trial to qualify for the Nat. Champs in that year qualifications have to be met on an annual basis.
> The style and pace of this dog a good example of where the FB Cockers blood line comes from and how they work in their native country. The cultural differences between the UK and USA are huge when it comes what is the standard, hopefully the breed can settle some where in the middle, through thoughful training & development


Thanks for the video and it does add perspective. If I am hunting in wooded cover I do expect and demand that my springers run tighter than they would it open grassland. The best and most experienced dogs will adjust their range and even hunting style based on the type of cover they are hunting. Also in bad scenting conditions I will force my dogs to run tighter and even recover ground if I feel we are missing something. So cover and scenting conditions can should in my opinion affect pattern and range.
Also, I would never allow anybody to hunt as close to me as the guns are in this video. The shooting lanes are very open compared to most grouse hunting I have done and there is no reason for the guns to be that close. Perhaps this is why the Brits expect their spaniels to run so close. They are ballistically challenged?


----------



## gundogguy

Very Good Scott, 




Gavan said:


> Thanks for the video and it does add perspective. If I am hunting Also, I would never allow anybody to hunt as close to me as the guns are in this video. The shooting lanes are very open compared to most grouse hunting I have done and there is no reason for the guns to be that close. Perhaps this is why the Brits expect their spaniels to run so close. They are ballistically challenged?


I might that is where the guns typically walk in a trial 6-10 feet away. Most are shooting 20g guns. This the UK National Champs. and there is a brace down off to right side of dog and handler in the video. Big cultural difference eh!


----------



## chrokeva

Gavan said:


> Nice video Chokreva and nice work on the buckets. Couple of comments. Only "fault" I noticed is that I wouldn't put the dummy where the dog doesn't have to go around the final bucket properly to get it. Seems counterproductive. I want the dog to go around the last bucket and make a proper turn up the field to get the reward (dummy). My two cents on the buckets is that teaches a dog to turn up the field and run a figure eight pattern rather than pancake flat in an upwind. Windshield wiper patterns are a waste of energy regardless and I prefer to have the dog come towards me as it crosses in front as opposed to running flat across to the other gun. You can stagger the buckets however you wish to increase or decrease the dogs "bite" up the course as it goes through the buckets.
> 
> You can also teach the dog to watch you as it crosses by double casting them back around the same bucket, calling them into hup at your feet and then casting them to continue, hupping them remotely on the bucket course, etc. Some spaniels inherently turn back on one side or the other and you can fix that "bad turn" with the buckets. The figure eight pattern reduces that turn back or back casting by taking the flatness out of the cast.
> 
> Bucket training is controlled exercise for the dog and handler and once the dog is taught to run the buckets a novice handler can get the dog good programmed exercise without creating problems for themselves. Sure beats going to the local park and turning the dog loose to run on it's own and ignore the handler. Thanks again for the video.


Good stuff Gaven. Yes I found myself getting lazy on that last bucket and she was running straight across rather than making a turn up to get the reward as you mentioned.

I have noticed at a few trials that I have been at that some dogs seemed to back cast often and I imagine that buckets would help that quite a bit. I am not sure how much a judge would penalize back casting but from almost the minute I started training my spaniel I was told that back casting is a big no no for either hunting or trial dog. 

I think I myself spent a bit too much time letting my dog run loose and letting her do her own thing which has caused me problems. We are now trying to rein her in a bit and working on me understanding communicate with her better.....so far so good.


----------



## chrokeva

gundogguy said:


> Just to bring some prospective to this discussion and also for comparison sake check out this link to this Cocker running in the UK 2014 National Champs. In the UK dogs need to win a trial to qualify for the Nat. Champs in that year qualifications have to be met on an annual basis.
> The style and pace of this dog a good example of where the FB Cockers blood line comes from and how they work in their native country. The cultural differences between the UK and USA are huge when it comes what is the standard, hopefully the breed can settle some where in the middle, through thoughful training & development


Enjoyed this video very much....thank you! The dog had what I also would consider good style and pace and seemed to be working an appropriate distance for the cover it was in. Very nice.


----------



## chrokeva

dauber said:


> Well said GDG. I have no opinion on the various training methods either and have encouraged some who I feel are more suited to these methods to give them a go, plus I'm fascinated by the step by step process. It is the "judging" aspect just as you state that is my concern. As long as judging is consistent and follows the cocker "Green Book" how they are trained shouldn't matter and doesn't matter to me.
> 
> I have been involved an some interesting emails this summer about cockers and the important characteristics of the field bred ECS. It took us back to some of the original traits of the early cockers here is a statement from one of the original US cocker men.
> 
> _"A few generations ago we embraced their diversity and varied styles. Their diversity was their main appeal. More and more these days I hear how "proper" Cockers run A certain distance and look a certain way. Anyone not conforming not understanding proper Cockers.
> 
> Perhaps my judging highlight was with Bill Zipp judging a varied field of good English Cockers, big ones, little ones. Tight workers and big runners alike....and one little American Cocker, and watching the American cocker have its day.
> 
> If we are not carful we will lose what drew most of us to the breed in the first place."
> _
> Then we got into more specific traits.
> 
> _"I ended up bringing Maesydderwen Griffen over in "92". As a young dog. He
> wasn't easy to keep a handle on, he was more than a handful and would not
> have suited many but he left his mark on both sides of the ocean. I would
> say his offspring in general were toned down in comparison. He produced many
> very small fiery bitches. Including freckles who won the 2000 Wisconsin
> National.
> 
> Like plenty of Cockers with great drive, he would rather hunt than retrieve,
> which makes training more complicated. I feel We need to be carful not to
> sacrifice drive for trainability. Do we still have these kind of males?"
> _
> This is a trait I have seen in some of my early cockers that were born in the late 90's. Color also came up...I understand it is a hot topic in the UK and any of the black and white, and liver and white are not run being they think they are too close to springers. They prefer mostly solid colors and dogs 26# and under. The speculation of how the FBECS was resurrected in the UK back in the 70's was interesting too, and some of the breeds mentioned that were outcrossed would amaze.


Interesting stuff Dauber! There does seem to be quite a variety in the breed which is of great interest to me as well.


----------



## chrokeva

While on the subject of trial seminars and such I am wondering how to get my hands on "A Guide to the Conduct and Judging of Cocker Spaniel Field Trials” (aka the green book)? I have been on the fieldcockers.com website and for the life of me can't locate the book?


----------



## dauber

chrokeva said:


> While on the subject of trial seminars and such I am wondering how to get my hands on "A Guide to the Conduct and Judging of Cocker Spaniel Field Trials” (aka the green book)? I have been on the fieldcockers.com website and for the life of me can't locate the book?


You have to buy them from ECSCA. Sue Rose has them. When we get home I'll find you an address or email. We should get a couple more.


----------



## chrokeva

dauber said:


> You have to buy them from ECSCA. Sue Rose has them. When we get home I'll find you an address or email. We should get a couple more.


Thanks dauber! Hubby will be chairing our February cocker trial this year and we were forwarded the new judges list and judging criteria for cocker trials which should help quite a bit but would be nice to get the green book on hand for reference.


----------



## gundogguy

Concerrning Spaniel Judges and Judging it seems that judges are dropping like flies, new criteria seems a little over the top.
2017 will be an interesting year to say the least.


----------



## dauber

chrokeva said:


> Thanks dauber! Hubby will be chairing our February cocker trial this year and we were forwarded the new judges list and judging criteria for cocker trials which should help quite a bit but would be nice to get the green book on hand for reference.


Chrokeva here is a link to the "store" of the ECSCA, near the bottom is "Guide to Conduct & Judging of Cocker Spaniel Field Trials" for $5. 

http://www.ecsca.info/index.php/store

I wish it would be easier to get them, might be better understood if people could get them.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Concerrning Spaniel Judges and Judging it seems that judges are dropping like flies, new criteria seems a little over the top.
> 2017 will be an interesting year to say the least.


Some discussion of this at last weeks seminar. Tom Meyer says few walk galleries anymore to have debates and teach new people. They (Those who come up with these new rules) want more experienced judges there to help spur debate and exchange of ideas. My opinion is some validity to this, we had a few current judges that did help by bringing up difficult situations but one current judge was a PIA always disagreeing with panel, cutting them off and dominating discussion. 

The cockers don't have these rules....at least yet. You are correct GDG, next year will be interesting.


----------



## chrokeva

dauber said:


> Chrokeva here is a link to the "store" of the ECSCA, near the bottom is "Guide to Conduct & Judging of Cocker Spaniel Field Trials" for $5.
> 
> http://www.ecsca.info/index.php/store
> 
> I wish it would be easier to get them, might be better understood if people could get them.


Thank you dauber! I will order one today. 
And yes it would make sense for them to be easier to obtain or at the very least let people know where to get them on the cocker website.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Some discussion of this at last weeks seminar. Tom Meyer says few walk galleries anymore to have debates and teach new people. They (Those who come up with these new rules) want more experienced judges there to help spur debate and exchange of ideas. My opinion is some validity to this, we had a few current judges that did help by bringing up difficult situations but one current judge was a PIA always disagreeing with panel, cutting them off and dominating discussion.
> 
> The cockers don't have these rules....at least yet. You are correct GDG, next year will be interesting.


Ya know I hit the like button though I'm not certain i like the developments, though find it very interesting.
Time will tell, as of now we are planning on 5 Amateur AA stakes this fall, though we will be fairly picky where we spend our time and money. 
Zeta will also be running assuming she is not in season at the Open National champs which she qualified for this past spring. I trust you had a good trip and arrived home safely.


----------



## Gavan

chrokeva said:


> Good stuff Gaven. Yes I found myself getting lazy on that last bucket and she was running straight across rather than making a turn up to get the reward as you mentioned.
> 
> I have noticed at a few trials that I have been at that some dogs seemed to back cast often and I imagine that buckets would help that quite a bit. I am not sure how much a judge would penalize back casting but from almost the minute I started training my spaniel I was told that back casting is a big no no for either hunting or trial dog.
> 
> I think I myself spent a bit too much time letting my dog run loose and letting her do her own thing which has caused me problems. We are now trying to rein her in a bit and working on me understanding communicate with her better.....so far so good.


 Try double casting for added control on that last bucket/reward. As she come across she should be looking at you for "permission" to go around the last bucket and get the dummy. When she looks at you step back towards the previous bucket and send her back around it before letting her come across and around the last bucket to get the dummy. If she isn't looking at you then you are missing a BIG part of the value of bucket training IMHO.

I always double cast on one of the buckets each time I run the dog. Vary which one it is and you will quickly have the dog checking with you as it comes across. That's what you want to gain that will hopefully carry over into your hunting and dog events. You can also call them into your feet as they come across.

As far as the concern of the dog becoming robotic that is an extreme reaction to bucket training where the handler has *way overdone the buckets and way underdone the bird work on a dog with low bird drive*. I have come nowhere near creating a dog with an artificial pattern that asks for permission to go get a bird. I have never used birds dead or alive in a bucket drill and I see reward but no risk in bucket training. It is just a more organized way of getting proper turns and attentiveness to the handler that I will try to get when I run the dog on birds in training.


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## Gavan

chrokeva said:


> Good stuff Gaven. Yes I found myself getting lazy on that last bucket and she was running straight across rather than making a turn up to get the reward as you mentioned.
> 
> I have noticed at a few trials that I have been at that some dogs seemed to back cast often and I imagine that buckets would help that quite a bit. I am not sure how much a judge would penalize back casting but from almost the minute I started training my spaniel I was told that back casting is a big no no for either hunting or trial dog.
> 
> I think I myself spent a bit too much time letting my dog run loose and letting her do her own thing which has caused me problems. We are now trying to rein her in a bit and working on me understanding communicate with her better.....so far so good.


 I really don't like backcasting which is technically running behind the guns or handler. Typical backcasters are young or timid dogs. To take it a step further I don't like the dog repeatedly turning back at the gun in an upwind instead of forward and up the field. If it only happens once or twice and the dog is showing drive I won't even note it but if it is repetitive and the dog is struggling to find birds me no likey.


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## chrokeva

Gavan said:


> As far as the concern of the dog becoming robotic that is an extreme reaction to bucket training where the handler has *way overdone the buckets and way underdone the bird work on a dog with low bird drive*. I have come nowhere near creating a dog with an artificial pattern that asks for permission to go get a bird. I have never used birds dead or alive in a bucket drill and I see reward but no risk in bucket training. It is just a more organized way of getting proper turns and attentiveness to the handler that I will try to get when I run the dog on birds in training.


My dog does not see running buckets drills anything like she sees working birds in the field but it has helped to get my dog and I communicating better. Like you I never used dead or live birds for bucket drills. Here is a recent clip of my little cocker out in the field with birds (quite a bit different than the video of the bucket drill). 
Three months ago (pre bucket drills) if you would have seen my dog and I running you would have seen a dog that was running for herself (self employed) and a handler that needed a lot of help . We still have a long way to go but feeling like we are starting to get it.


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## chrokeva

Gavan said:


> I really don't like backcasting which is technically running behind the guns or handler. Typical backcasters are young or timid dogs. To take it a step further I don't like the dog repeatedly turning back at the gun in an upwind instead of forward and up the field. If it only happens once or twice and the dog is showing drive I won't even note it but if it is repetitive and the dog is struggling to find birds me no likey.


Thanks for the low down on backcasters from a judges perspective.


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## Gavan

chrokeva said:


> My dog does not see running buckets drills anything like she sees working birds in the field but it has helped to get my dog and I communicating better. Like you I never used dead or live birds for bucket drills. Here is a recent clip of my little cocker out in the field with birds (quite a bit different than the video of the bucket drill).
> Three months ago (pre bucket drills) if you would have seen my dog and I running you would have seen a dog that was running for herself (self employed) and a handler that needed a lot of help . We still have a long way to go but feeling like we are starting to get it.


Nice running dog and good wind use and not a lot of wasted motion. I found myself trying to determine wind direction by the pattern you were running and I had decided the wind was blowing left to right since you seemed to be emphasizing the right side of the field (course). When your dog made a nice find it appeared that the wind was blowing more in your face or a little right to left. Perhaps you were having trouble with your dog cutting the upwind side short and were purposely pushing the dog deeper to the right and up into the wind as part of your training. If not then I think you were emphasizing the wrong side of the course if the wind was right to left. I always try to push my dog deeper on the downwind side and outside the gun, unless that is the direction of the center line. In a trial if you are repeatedly pushing the dog up into the wind you are telling me that your dog is deficient in nose. Nice dog and nice job, just giving you something else to think about.


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## Gavan

Oh, and is that Breitbarth standing behind you?


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## chrokeva

Gavan said:


> Nice running dog and good wind use and not a lot of wasted motion. I found myself trying to determine wind direction by the pattern you were running and I had decided the wind was blowing left to right since you seemed to be emphasizing the right side of the field (course). When your dog made a nice find it appeared that the wind was blowing more in your face or a little right to left. Perhaps you were having trouble with your dog cutting the upwind side short and were purposely pushing the dog deeper to the right and up into the wind as part of your training. If not then I think you were emphasizing the wrong side of the course if the wind was right to left. I always try to push my dog deeper on the downwind side and outside the gun, unless that is the direction of the center line. In a trial if you are repeatedly pushing the dog up into the wind you are telling me that your dog is deficient in nose. Nice dog and nice job, just giving you something else to think about.


Plenty for me to think about...thank you! Yes you are right that she has been cutting me short on the upwind so I have been concentrating on that (maybe a bit too much).
It was a tough day for wind because honestly the direction kept changing and when it did it happened quickly.
Here is a not so good clip on the same day where a quick wind change caused some problems for me . I did learn that if she is on a bird a toot toot won't stop her so I better be hitting a stop whistle rather than a turn in that situation...learning new things all the time.


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## chrokeva

Gavan said:


> Oh, and is that Breitbarth standing behind you?


Yep sure is.


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## Gavan

I learned what I know about the boards and buckets from Gary Breitbarth at a couple of seminars. Gary is a great dog man and really created the program that is in use today working with Jim Dobbs many years ago. Gary taught Marty Knibbs, Jim Keller, Gary Wilson, and scores of others on his program. Learning to read your dog when she is on a bird takes repetition and lots of it. Hunting your dog would help speed up that process but it still takes a lot of experience and practice, practice, practice!


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## chrokeva

Gavan said:


> I learned what I know about the boards and buckets from Gary Breitbarth at a couple of seminars. Gary is a great dog man and really created the program that is in use today working with Jim Dobbs many years ago. Gary taught Marty Knibbs, Jim Keller, Gary Wilson, and scores of others on his program. Learning to read your dog when she is on a bird takes repetition and lots of it. Hunting your dog would help speed up that process but it still takes a lot of experience and practice, practice, practice!


Yes Gary is a great dog man and I have a lot of respect for him and his ability to read a dog. My dog and I have grown quite a bit together with his help over the past few months.


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## dauber

Cool vids Chrokeva. Wind can do some strange things even when it is fairly strong. Today on our morning long free run there was a stiff SW wind and as we got to the back of the hayfield there is a failed corn patch. The wind was picking up panicum seed heads that are very light and get spread by wind. I am always fascinated by wind and scent traveling so I stood there watching some swirl straight up then go in places, others just barely get above the cove and take off. Some even go backwards along shears of areas of faster wind. In the end the best wind vane is your dogs nose, they are amazing! Keep up your training, you are learning to trust Bridgett and she is learning to trust you. Yous two are becoming a team!!

I like to play around with smoke bombs too, just make sure fire danger isn't too high. Sometimes after training I put the dogs up and light off a smoke bomb or two. 

Today was good chance to train in stiff winds with green thick grass.


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> I learned what I know about the boards and buckets from Gary Breitbarth at a couple of seminars. Gary is a great dog man and really created the program that is in use today working with Jim Dobbs many years ago. Gary taught Marty Knibbs, Jim Keller, Gary Wilson, and scores of others on his program. Learning to read your dog when she is on a bird takes repetition and lots of it. Hunting your dog would help speed up that process but it still takes a lot of experience and practice, practice, practice!


Gavan, were you not at the Dobbs workshop when Jim and Phyllis conducted a weekend workshop in Ohio .Place boards on Saturday and Bucket drill on Sunday?


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## Gavan

Not that far back gdg. First was at Gary Wilson's with Skip Smith conducting training. Then Breitbarth at Gary Wilson's and then three years ago with Gary Breitbarth at Tim Edwards property. Also had a similar seminar with Jim Keller at Russ Smith's a few years back.


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## dauber

Trialing and hunting season fast approaching. Here is a fun little video of 7yr old Smoke playing with 6mo old Tappy on the morning fun run.


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## chrokeva

dauber said:


> Trialing and hunting season fast approaching. Here is a fun little video of 7yr old Smoke playing with 6mo old Tappy on the morning fun run.


awww that warmed my heart. Makes me think I need another little cocker


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## michgundog

After doing a little training this morning with the big dogs I thought I would toss a dead bird for the little guy. He did okay for 10 weeks.

View attachment 224098


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## dauber

Tappy 6 months old doing a little yard work with a cross wing pigeon. He appears to have a very nice mouth much like Murphy. 

View attachment 224374


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## gundogguy

That's what I like seeing baby's handle and develop confidence with pigeons. Pigeons certainly are not at the the top of the stimuli ladder, however when the pupster is ready his self worth will be immense when he reaches the pinnacle....real game birds, Good show Dauber


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## gundogguy

Summer time fun, and hopefully get our fanny's back in shape for the upcoming campaign.
View attachment 224931
View attachment 224932
View attachment 224931
View attachment 224932


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## dauber

Here are the fall 2016 cocker trials. Also can check Cockers in the Field Calendar for up to date info http://www.fieldcockers.com/events2016.html

September 8-9
Maine Spaniel Field trial Club - Dresden, ME - 9/8 open and puppy 9/9 open stake

September 10-11
Cascade English Cocker Spaniel Fanciers Club - Washington - 9/10 and 9/11 open stakes

Central Wisconsin Sporting Spaniel Club - New Glarus, WI. 9/10 and 9/11 open and puppy stakes

September 17-18
North Dakota Sporting Spaniel Club - Menoken, ND. - 9/17 and 9/18 open stakes

ECSCA and Euclid Sporting Spaniel Club - Onstead, MI - 9/17 Amateur and Open stake. 9/18 open and puppy stakes

Cocker Spaniel Field Trail Club of America - New York - 9/17 and 9/18 open stakes

September 24-25
Door County Sporting Spaniels - Jacksonport, WI - 9/24 Open and Amateur stakes, 9/25 open and puppy stakes

Patriot Sporting Spaniel Club - Granville, MA - 9/24 Open and puppy stakes, 9/25 Open stake

September 30, October 1-2
Fox Valley English Cocker Club - Reedsville, WI - 9/30 Open, Amateur and puppy stakes. 10/1 Open and puppy stakes, 10/2 Amateur stake

Spaniel Association of Western New York - Date is approved but no info at this time

October 7-8-9
Minnesota Hunting Spaniel Assoc. - Baldwin, WI - 10/7 Open and puppy stakes, 10/8 Open and puppy stakes, 10/9 Amateur stake

October 15-16
ECSA - Tyrone, PA - 10/15 and 10/16 open and puppy stakes

October 26 - until conclusion
2016 ECSCA National Cocker Championship - Forada, Minnesota

Team Dauber is planning on running Michigan, Door co., Fox Valley and the Nationals this fall.


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## dauber

Huge congrats to Mrs. Gundogguy!!! She handled Zeta to a blue ribbon!!


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## gundogguy

Zeta the War Princess is on the rampage! Wins the Amatuer stake in Western NY. Her mistress, Nancy Jo with the handle. She now Qualified for both Open and Am Champs.


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Huge congrats to Mrs. Gundogguy!!! She handled Zeta to a blue ribbon!!



Here Here !!!

CONGRATS and WAY2GO, Mrs. GDG. Great Win w/Zeta.


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Zeta the War Princess is on the rampage! Wins the Amatuer stake in Western NY. Her mistress, Nancy Jo with the handle. She now Qualified for both Open and Am Champs.


AWESOME! Congrats Mrs. GDG & Zeta! WTG!


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## gundogguy

Zeta Beta is good girl. Ultimately i would want to see her handled to placements and wins by multiple handlers, that is really how talented i think she is. She will do her work for any one that knows how to ask her.
In case any one is wondering, she cannot have any boy friends till she is old enough to drink or drive..


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## Gavan

gundogguy said:


> Zeta the War Princess is on the rampage! Wins the Amatuer stake in Western NY. Her mistress, Nancy Jo with the handle. She now Qualified for both Open and Am Champs.


Congrats to you, Nancy, and Zeta!


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## gundogguy

Dauber ,hoping for cool breezes against your cheek this weekend. every one one be safe on the opener and for pete sakes have fun!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Dauber ,hoping for cool breezes against your cheek this weekend. every one one be safe on the opener and for pete sakes have fun!


Thank you GDG. We're going to get Mrs Dauber back into the act handling Zac on Saturday while I debut Murphy in his first AA amateur. Should be fun and interesting. But before that me and a few of the pack are going to hit a couple grouse coverts opening morning. 

Good luck to JAM at Tilden and everyone else who is trialing or hunting this weekend!


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## gundogguy

Gavan said:


> Congrats to you, Nancy, and Zeta!


Gavan will you be going to Pittsburgh?


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## JAM

dauber said:


> Good luck to JAM at Tilden and everyone else who is trialing or hunting this weekend!


Thank you, Dauber! Good luck to you and the pocket rockets, too!


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## jasperdog

My wife, daughter and I went out the the Euclid Spaniel Club's trial near Onsted ,MI for Saturday's action.

Having never been to a Field Trial ( but having hunted from Maine to Montana) we found it most interesting. The dogs performed like pros under somewhat challenging conditions. Those cockers are a ball to watch in action.

Everyone was very cordial and helpful. An especially big shout out to Mr. And Mrs. Dauber. They were very helpful explaining what to look for and helping interpret what we were seeing.

Mrs. Dauber got a call back with Zac for the third round and unfortunately on sort of a confusing wounded bird/don't send situation on their second contact they ended up not placing. Great run though...

Not sure who else is on here that may have been there yesterday, but the atmosphere was welcoming and the dogs were fun to watch...


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## NATTY BUMPO

jasperdog said:


> My wife, daughter and I went out the the Euclid Spaniel Club's trial near Onsted ,MI for Saturday's action.
> 
> Having never been to a Field Trial ( but having hunted from Maine to Montana) we found it most interesting. The dogs performed like pros under somewhat challenging conditions. Those cockers are a ball to watch in action.
> 
> Everyone was very cordial and helpful. An especially big shout out to Mr. And Mrs. Dauber. They were very helpful explaining what to look for and helping interpret what we were seeing.
> 
> Mrs. Dauber got a call back with Zac for the third round and unfortunately on sort of a confusing wounded bird/don't send situation on their second contact they ended up not placing. Great run though...
> 
> Not sure who else is on here that may have been there yesterday, but the atmosphere was welcoming and the dogs were fun to watch...


GLAD you enjoyed your first spaniel FT. And Lucky You Steve and Karen were there and could give you the low down on the whole business.

Team Dauber is the BEST.


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> GLAD you enjoyed your first spaniel FT. And Lucky You Steve and Karen were there and could give you the low down on the whole business.
> 
> Team Dauber is the BEST.


Outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!! Team Rodock and Zac take the Blue at Euclid!! 9/18/16


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## JAM

Tilden Valley ESS Club's FT Placements

OPEN
1st WEB -Givens
2nd BRODIE -Givens
3rd TRAKKER -Coady
4th REACHER -Haglin

AMATEUR
1st TRACE -Pollack
2nd TRAKKER -Coady
3rd NEALA -Martin
4th JULEP -Pollack

PUPPY
1st BLUE -Givens
2nd VERN -Keough
3rd MOOCHIE -Schwartz
4th HARPER -Schwartz

Congrats to all - Especially our own Tilden Valley ESS Club's V.P. Mike Pollack taking 1st and 4th in the Amateur Stake! AWESOME!

My youngster Jeepers ran very well. He was running a downwind, had a great find, steady and nice, fast retrieve on his first bird but could not resist staying steady long enough for his bracemate to run past him while he was honor to retrieve her bird. I think if Jeepers had been facing me I could have kept his butt on the ground but he was looking away from me listening to a wounded, flapping bird about 5 yds. in front of him. Add to that another dog driving up behind him... Oh well! Next week we try again.


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## dauber

jasperdog said:


> My wife, daughter and I went out the the Euclid Spaniel Club's trial near Onsted ,MI for Saturday's action.
> 
> Having never been to a Field Trial ( but having hunted from Maine to Montana) we found it most interesting. The dogs performed like pros under somewhat challenging conditions. Those cockers are a ball to watch in action.
> 
> Everyone was very cordial and helpful. An especially big shout out to Mr. And Mrs. Dauber. They were very helpful explaining what to look for and helping interpret what we were seeing.
> 
> Mrs. Dauber got a call back with Zac for the third round and unfortunately on sort of a confusing wounded bird/don't send situation on their second contact they ended up not placing. Great run though...
> 
> Not sure who else is on here that may have been there yesterday, but the atmosphere was welcoming and the dogs were fun to watch...


It was outstanding spending time with you Jasperdog along with your wife and daughter! You guys were real troopers hanging out in the conditions Saturday. 

Yous have selected a top notch litter for a pup from Stonewalker cockers! You will have a lot of talent to work with making your next hunting dog. If you get a chance in a few weeks at Fox Valley tag along again, the cover there is a little lower and you can get a good look at what these dogs look like when they get birdy. 

See you in a couple weeks!


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## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!! Team Rodock and Zac take the Blue at Euclid!! 9/18/16


Thanks Gundogguy! We had a great weekend. Zac was on the top of his game. 

Saturday started off with light rain and light winds with a few occasions of a little heavier rain. The first and second cover was mixed warm season grasses and goldenrod along with some cool season grasses. The tallish cover and light changing winds made for tough retrieve. The 3rd was in big bluestem that was quite tall plus the rain quit, sun popped out and became steamy hot. 

Mrs dauber ran Zac in the open on Saturday and they were an excellent team all day. In the end one judge loved them one couldn't place them. Zac was one of the few dogs that made all his retrieves without handling, but at the same time he handled everything quite easily and didn't have any adversity to deal with. The ended up with the guns award but no placement. 

I ran young Murphy in the amateur, he had a nice first series in a heavier rain period with very little wind with a nice track on his first bird. His second series was about the time the rain quit and the wind was rally switching. He struggled finding birds early in this run but had 3 nice long honors we got to work on then he figured out the scenting and produced two birds with nice snappy retrieves. 

Sunday was the opposite conditions with bright sunlight, with fast rising temps, and very light to no wind. I ran Zac Sunday and we faced a little adversity right off the bat after just a couple casts with a bird from the other course flying right over his head and the left outside gun dropping it out front about 15 yards from him. I was instructed to keep him out there and the other dog literally ran into him. I called him in at that point and the other handler came to our side to handle his dog. In the meantime out next two plants were flushed. Even though we moved up a bit it still lead to a long run. Zac's first find was in some tall bluestem after a short track out from our left gun (we were on left beat) and it flew across to other side and right gun dropped it outside of himself. Zac nailed the retrieve and the judge was very impressed. Then we quickly found the second bird and had an equally long retrieve with a bird that sailed a bit then dropped. Zac was still in the tall cover and overran the line a bit but found quickly on his work back. 

The second started exactly like the first but this was the "hole" section and with no wind. So when his first two plants were flushed by bracemate he had another long hot run but when we got to clean ground he found his 2 with a nice retrieve and a fly a way. 

We made the third again and was second to last dog. Conditions had gotten tough with over 80 degree temps and almost no wind. A couple dogs ahead of him failed retrieves or passed birds. He came up and made a nice track on a squirrelly bird and a snappy retrieve. His last bird was a quite track up the course and the bird was dropped almost on the next plant. Judge warned me "watch out it's on the plant". I smiled inside since this is Zac's MO, he flushes birds and of course he would find them, but we have learned how to deal with this and I think he enjoys it. So I'm thinking bring it on. In the tall cover we just watch the grass move and of course he flushes next plant. I call him in a bit and give him a back, he heads 30-40 yards back and flushes another bird. I'm grinning now, here is an opportunity! I call him mist all the way in and give him a left back to make the 50 yard retrieve and as we watch the grass move he nails it and brings it back. 

Sunday Zac again wins guns award and this day he also gets the blue ribbon. He had a heck of a day. 

Mrs dauber handling Zac in first. 

View attachment 226815


Mrs dauber in 3rd with Zac

View attachment 226816


View attachment 226817


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## dauber

Mrs Dauber handled Zac to a 3rd place in the open today at Fox Valley. She did another fine job today. 
View attachment 228153


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## gundogguy

Outstanding man, now your chipping away at the High point game, "Rolling rolling rolling keep them doggies rolling raw hide" !!


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## JAM

WTG Mrs. D! AWESOME!


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## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Mrs Dauber handled Zac to a 3rd place in the open today at Fox Valley. She did another fine job today.
> View attachment 228153


Team Dauber is running in a good groove. WTG, Guys.


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## NATTY BUMPO

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Team Dauber is running in a good groove. WTG, Guys.


FIRST BLOOD ......... ( a little change-up from the trial reports)

Waaay back in the '70s I had ordered a V. Bernardelli (Italian, Gardone) 20 bore double built to my specifications. Its been all over the grouse woods from MN to NB in the subsequent 40+ years. And fired _many_ thousands of rounds at clay games and grouse/wc. Never had any major troubles in 40 years but I was getting leery of some major mechanical problem popping up right in the middle of grouse season.

So last winter, I happened upon another Vencinzo Bernardelli 20 bore, pre-owned, and in 98.7% condition. It had 28" tubes, SG, SPL, SNST and very plain wood (saves weight). Came with a luggage case with makers label and all. Weighs a scant 6 lbs. I couldn't get my CC out of the wallet fast enough.  It needed the M/F chokes to be opened, so off to Briley to be changed to SK1/SK2. I shot a case of skeet loads with the gun this summer.

Yesterday, I had to take Mrs Bumpo for an eye doc apt and didn't get home until almost 10o'clock. So, I got into my hunting grab, whistled up the pups and headed for one of the home covers, 15 minutes from the Bumpo Ranch. First time in there this year and had three flushes in the first 15 minutes. No chances at first two, but bird #3 came out low and hot, R to L, about like a low house # 4 station clay. I kept the gun swinging and the bird went down into a huge blackberry patch. But Rocky was quickly on the case and brought back a plump young of the year male. The new Bernardelli has been "blooded".  And , since this is the first grouse shot I've have taken this season, I am now officially batting 1000.00 for the season.!!  A couple pics.


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## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> FIRST BLOOD ......... ( a little change-up from the trial reports)
> 
> Waaay back in the '70s I had ordered a V. Bernardelli (Italian, Gardone) 20 bore double built to my specifications. Its been all over the grouse woods from MN to NB in the subsequent 40+ years. And fired _many_ thousands of rounds at clay games and grouse/wc. Never had any major troubles in 40 years but I was getting leery of some major mechanical problem popping up right in the middle of grouse season.
> 
> So last winter, I happened upon another Vencinzo Bernardelli 20 bore, pre-owned, and in 98.7% condition. It had 28" tubes, SG, SPL, SNST and very plain wood (saves weight). Came with a luggage case with makers label and all. Weighs a scant 6 lbs. I couldn't get my CC out of the wallet fast enough.  It needed the M/F chokes to be opened, so off to Briley to be changed to SK1/SK2. I shot a case of skeet loads with the gun this summer.
> 
> Yesterday, I had to take Mrs Bumpo for an eye doc apt and didn't get home until almost 10o'clock. So, I got into my hunting grab, whistled up the pups and headed for one of the home covers, 15 minutes from the Bumpo Ranch. First time in there this year and had three flushes in the first 15 minutes. No chances at first two, but bird #3 came out low and hot, R to L, about like a low house # 4 station clay. I kept the gun swinging and the bird went down into a huge blackberry patch. But Rocky was quickly on the case and brought back a plump young of the year male. The new Bernardelli has been "blooded".  And , since this is the first grouse shot I've had taken, I an now officially batting 1000.00 for the season.!!  A couple pics.


Congrats!! Nice day in the woods and nice gun, too. Have to get a shot of Rocky in your next set of pics NB.


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## jasperdog

View attachment 228252

We made it back to Michigan from the Fox Valley Cocker trial yesterday. 
Thanks to Kim Wiley for parting with our new puppy Nellie out of Liza by Briar... 
not sure about trialing but looking forward to hunting next fall and beyond.


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## NATTY BUMPO

jasperdog said:


> View attachment 228252
> 
> We made it back to Michigan from the Fox Valley Cocker trial yesterday.
> Thanks to Kim Wiley for parting with our new puppy Nellie out of Liza by Briar...
> not sure about trialing but looking forward to hunting next fall and beyond.


What a cutie.  LUV those Black and Tans.

Will look forward to reports of Nellie's journey into birdogdom.

NB


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## dauber

Nice story Natty!! Thank for sharing it with us.


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## dauber

jasperdog said:


> View attachment 228252
> 
> We made it back to Michigan from the Fox Valley Cocker trial yesterday.
> Thanks to Kim Wiley for parting with our new puppy Nellie out of Liza by Briar...
> not sure about trialing but looking forward to hunting next fall and beyond.


Very nice seeing yous again in the rain! Good luck with you well bred pup! Fun times ahead.


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## dauber

Team Dauber finished off our fall trial season with a couple more ribbons. Saturday I handled Zac to a 4th place in the open in a 31 dog stake with a few other red hot dogs. Zac finished all of his 6 fall trials placing in 5 and getting guns award in the other. Mrs Dauber and I each ran him 3 times. He has developed into a very honest consistent bird finder who works equally well for either of us. 
Young Murphy who is now 21 months old was entered in 4 amateurs, he finished the second in 2 and wasn't called to 3rd in two trials and placed in the other 2 taking a 3rd place today under judge Trent Bosse and judge Casey Butz. Murphy is now back into training for the Spring and Zac is getting a couple weeks of hunting before his tuneup for Nationals the end of the month. Hope everyone is having a good fall. 
View attachment 228373


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## JAM

AWESOME Team Dauber!


----------



## dauber

Now for some hunting the next couple weeks. The new FC got first run. 

View attachment 228736


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Team Dauber finished off our fall trial season with a couple more ribbons. Saturday I handled Zac to a 4th place in the open in a 31 dog stake with a few other red hot dogs. Zac finished all of his 6 fall trials placing in 5 and getting guns award in the other. Mrs Dauber and I each ran him 3 times. He has developed into a very honest consistent bird finder who works equally well for either of us.
> Young Murphy who is now 21 months old was entered in 4 amateurs, he finished the second in 2 and wasn't called to 3rd in two trials and placed in the other 2 taking a 3rd place today under judge Trent Bosse and judge Casey Butz. Murphy is now back into training for the Spring and Zac is getting a couple weeks of hunting before his tuneup for Nationals the end of the month. Hope everyone is having a good fall.
> View attachment 228373


WAY2GO, Team Dauber. You guys have had one heck of a fall campaign.


----------



## Gavan

dauber said:


> Now for some hunting the next couple weeks. The new FC got first run.
> 
> View attachment 228736


Nice looking bird!


----------



## gundogguy

Great Lakes trial was an uneventful activity for Zeta. Decent 1st series, 2nd series just did not come together as normal. Nothing really that one could put a finger on it it just was basically a little sloppy and not very precise. She found herself out of sorts and just did not have a run that impressed her handler Nancy or the judges that day.
She may be coming "in", we will learn more as she is back with M. Wallace in Virginia beginning the conditioning for the Nat Open and the Canadian Nationals.
Other than that "Hey Hey"! the Cubs won two


----------



## dauber

Few pics from the bird camps over last couple weeks.


----------



## gundogguy

Nice pics dauber. Really like the one where the hunter has the dog in a head lock. Let him know that as he moves up in weight class ( say St Benard) he prolly will not be able to show off those worm gobblers in each hand!


----------



## dauber

Tappy starting to work with dead pheasants.


----------



## michgundog

Had a decent morning should've had my limit.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

2016 Cocker NC

GOOD LUCK to Team Dauber and #75 Zac Attack.

May the winds be fair, and the judges too, the covers reasonable, some good brace mates and the gunners aim true..

Will look forward to the report...........


----------



## dauber

Thank you Natty! Team Dauber made the grounds late yesterday and have begun work for the NCC. We are running the training day tomorrow and I'm the grounds chair so have many duties from selecting and setting courses to parking and following landowners instructions. Cover looks fantastic. The 1st and 2nd will be in warm season grass mix about waist high. 3rd and 4th in broken cover of tree lines, willow pockets and swales with mix of warm and cool season grasses with patches of reed canary. The 5th will either be down a tree line or in over waist high switch with ditches along the edge. This is the land of little house on the prairie so we are taking advantage of the natural habitat. In fact the landowner was out last evening pheasant hunting and got 2 roosters in our 1st and 2nd course. There is a facebook page I think called 2016 National Cocker Championship that should keep up with callbacks.


----------



## jasperdog

Good Luck Team Dauber!!!

We will be following along on the callbacks...

Say Hi to my Mom and Dad too...


----------



## Steelheadfred

Life was good till I broke two ribs Sunday night.


----------



## michgundog

Steelheadfred said:


> Life was good till I broke two ribs Sunday night.


Get well soon


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Steelheadfred said:


> Life was good till I broke two ribs Sunday night.


Fritz,

Good Thing you are married to a Doctor! 

But I am sure a little detail like that will not slow you down.

Rod


----------



## Steelheadfred

I guess, I broke out that doctors 28 gauge, bought two boxes of shells from Bryan, we will see, I'm winded walking up stairs. 

This 18 and over beer league hockey sounded like fun.


----------



## gundogguy

Here we go Canadian National begins 10/27.
#30 is done being in season ready to roll
https://www.dogshow.ca/Docs/914_Sou...lClub[NATIONALCHAMPIONSHIP]_RunningOrder1.pdf


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Here we go Canadian National begins 10/27.
> #30 is done being in season ready to roll
> https://www.dogshow.ca/Docs/914_Sou...lClub[NATIONALCHAMPIONSHIP]_RunningOrder1.pdf



Best of Luck to Zeta and Team Wallace at the Nationals.


----------



## JAM

Best of luck to #75 Zac at the 2016 National Cocker Spaniel Championship!
And to Zeta at the 2016 Canadian National Open Spaniel Championship!

We're all pulling for the M-S.com "Z" dogs!


----------



## dauber

Zac didn't do quite enough to get a third series callback this year. Still a good fall finishing the 6 trials before nationals placing in 5 and getting guns award in the other. We still have grounds chair duties to fulfill thru the conclusion and will start our pheasant hunting on Monday. Still have friends dogs running to cheer for.


----------



## gundogguy

2nd series of the Canadian nationals sponsor by Frank Wiseman and iconic Spaniel NFC FTCH AFTCH Salmy's Masterpiece (Cliff)...FC CFC Zeta's sire.. .12 of the 49 dogs participating are Cliff's Kids
Zeta had a great first seres yesterday strong finds excellent flushes and 2 spot on no handle retrieves both in excess of 80 yards. Today will be a new day!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Zac didn't do quite enough to get a third series callback this year. Still a good fall finishing the 6 trials before nationals placing in 5 and getting guns award in the other. We still have grounds chair duties to fulfill thru the conclusion and will start our pheasant hunting on Monday. Still have friends dogs running to cheer for.


Steve and Karen,

You must remember that Team Dauber has had a very successful fall campaign. Well Done. Congrats again.

EVERYTHING has to go "just right" , for multiple days, to get a piece of the pie at the Nationals. Enjoy the hunting after the trial is done and be sure to post some pics of all the fun!!


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Steve and Karen,
> 
> You must remember that Team Dauber has had a very successful fall campaign. Well Done. Congrats again.
> 
> EVERYTHING has to go "just right" , for multiple days, to get a piece of the pie at the Nationals. Enjoy the hunting after the trial is done and be sure to post some pics of all the fun!!



Thanks Natty!
Oh no whoa is me here, we are very happy and maybe I'm a bit biased, but this thru 5 series has been by far the smoothest and best cocker Nationals I've attended, water was completed this afternoon and the big show last series is 9am tomorrow morning. This Nationals was set up as a "days pheasant hunt" in my mind. The first two series was morning roosting cover, very consistent warm season grass mix. The 3rd and 4th was mid day loafing cover of mixed thinner and thicker grasses with willow runs and marsh grass. We still need a couple roosters for our limit and as we worked the roosting cover some ran into the the wooded hedge which is where our last series will be to finish off our limit. Ive been too busy to get many pictures our reports. 17 dogs are left from the 91 that started. The NFC will be selected tomorrow. I will be here for a day following to make sure all is well here when we leave. 

That was my first priority this year as I was grounds chair and Stewart of the Beat. I did my best running Zac, but had to make sure the trial was going well first. 

We have given our all to make sure this is a quality NCC, we gave it our best during our series work but it wasn't quite good enough this year. We will make some roosters pay over the next couple weeks.


----------



## jasperdog

Thanks for the behind the scenes story. It has to be something to see all those dogs work. 

Have fun hunting.. Those small towns take Halloween pretty seriously so don't forget your costumes.....


----------



## dauber

jasperdog said:


> Thanks for the behind the scenes story. It has to be something to see all those dogs work.
> 
> Have fun hunting.. Those small towns take Halloween pretty seriously so don't forget your costumes.....


Haha!!! We went to supper at small bar in Forida,Mn last night and they were all in costume. The waitress asked, are you all real hunters or in costumes?? We replied "yes just costumes"?


----------



## dauber

2016 NCC placements


----------



## dauber

Favorite pic of the day.


----------



## gundogguy

Proud of Miss Zeta's performance at the Canadian Nationals for four strong series, however she was left off the callbacks to the 5th because of a clerical error by the one of the judges. The reason it is called trialing is because it will try you in more ways than one.

On a positive note I thought I would post a photo from FB describing what a spaniel is..with.a nice slightly up wind pattern


----------



## dauber

2016 NCC pictures 

https://gardianphotography.smugmug.com/National-Cocker-Championship-2


----------



## gundogguy

Oh did I mention the big dogs run their Champs this week end in the UK 2017 Springer Spaniel
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/act...nships/english-springer-spaniel-championship/


----------



## gundogguy

2017 UK National Champs 66 dogs running, tomorrow Tuesday and Weds.here is the running order and entry


----------



## gundogguy

Some very nice photo's of the Irish AV Spaniel Championships Dec 2016
A.V. All Varieties of spaniels which usually boils down to Cockers and Springers

ttps://www.flickr.com/gp/chowardphotos/063Hv4


----------



## gundogguy

Paul French International clip of the UK Cocker National Champs.


----------



## gundogguy

2017 UK Springer Spaniel National Champion


WINNER - Mr Steve Dixon’s Rytex Reba

2nd place - Mr L Cooper’s FTCh Bishwell Black Magic of Breckmarsh
3rd place - Mr S Dixon’s FTCh Dawsonlee Heather
4th place - Mr C Morgan’s Tailorsdrift Shadowland


----------



## dauber

I brought a pup out of the 4th place dog back from a spring trial for a guy. Be interesting to see how the pup does over here.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I brought a pup out of the 4th place dog back from a spring trial for a guy. Be interesting to see how the pup does over here.


Future trial dog or pet companion hunter?


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> 2017 UK Springer Spaniel National Champion
> 
> 
> WINNER - Mr Steve Dixon’s Rytex Reba
> 
> 2nd place - Mr L Cooper’s FTCh Bishwell Black Magic of Breckmarsh
> 3rd place - Mr S Dixon’s FTCh Dawsonlee Heather
> 4th place - Mr C Morgan’s Tailorsdrift Shadowland


Just so I'm not accuse of "Fake News" Correction the winner of the UK Springer National Champs was 
*Simon Dixon*, Not Steve Dixon.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Future trial dog or pet companion hunter?


Future trial dog is the plan.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Future trial dog is the plan.


Very good! The only reason i asked is because of the tremendous ability of the little Spaniel whether Cocker of Springer to thrive and succeed on two continents under differing training,hunting, and trialing environments.
The Brits approach to the Spaniel game is easily 90 to 150 degrees different than the way we North Americans approach the game. And yet every year more dogs and new blood to come to the states primarily as trial prospects. 
I have always admired this quality in our lil dogs to be so talented as to be able to adapt to differing work requirements here and abroad.
The bottom line is it does not matter the standards are the same here and across the pond, Find'em, Flush'em Retrieve'em with Manners


----------



## gundogguy

Hot of the wire Paul French trailer of the 2017 Springer UK National Championship. IMH a very good slice of English field trialing. Enjoy!


----------



## dauber

Here is hours of spaniel viewing, both springers and cockers. 

http://www.ftspaniels.dk/film/


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Here is hours of spaniel viewing, both springers and cockers.
> 
> http://www.ftspaniels.dk/film/


Dauber absolute great find on your part thanks so much for sharing. Have that site bookmarked for sure.


----------



## dauber

Hope this works. 
Another vid from the other side of the pond. This is an oldie. Interesting the size and look of the cocker and what they expected of the cocker at the flush in the rabbit pen. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/505209542927988/permalink/1194648210650781/


----------



## gundogguy

It seems the link has come down, sorry I missed.


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> It seems the link has come down, sorry I missed.


If you go on Facebook and look up the Maine Spaniel Field Trial club, it was posted this morning called something like Wilfred Cromlix of the archives of National Library of Scotland.


----------



## dauber

Today's lineup










Smoke










Zac










Murphy 










Tappy










Disclaimer- no lead shot was used in this training lol!
But over the last 10 years something like 200 boxes have been shot here, and I'm still alive hehehe.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Today's lineup
> 
> View attachment 243120
> 
> 
> Smoke
> 
> View attachment 243121
> 
> 
> Zac
> 
> View attachment 243122
> 
> 
> Murphy
> 
> View attachment 243123
> 
> 
> Tappy
> 
> View attachment 243124
> 
> 
> Disclaimer- no lead shot was used in this training lol!
> But over the last 10 years something like 200 boxes have been shot here, and I'm still alive hehehe.


Are those home rolled or factory loads? Nice pics of the frozen north...and your guys!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Are those home rolled or factory loads? Nice pics of the frozen north...and your guys!


A mix. Probably 60% reload.


----------



## dauber

Congratulations to chrokeva and her fbecs Bridgett on winning the Stockton English Springer Spaniel Training Club cocker trial last weekend. Her had work last summer and fall has paid off.

Here's some photos from the weekend of cocker and springer trials in California. https://m.facebook.com/SESSTC/?hc_ref=SEARCH&fref=nf


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Congratulations to chrokeva and her fbecs Bridgett on winning the Stockton English Springer Spaniel Training Club cocker trial last weekend. Her had work last summer and fall has paid off.
> 
> Here's some photos from the weekend of cocker and springer trials in California. https://m.facebook.com/SESSTC/?hc_ref=SEARCH&fref=nf


Great way to start the year, Jackie! Congrats all around!


----------



## dauber

Tappy is 1 yr old today. A few tufts if grass have melted out so he got to make a couple finds on his BD!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Tappy is 1 yr old today. A few tufts if grass have melted out so he got to make a couple finds on his BD!
> 
> View attachment 245848


Wow where did the year go! Good looking hold on that live clipwing bird!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Tappy is 1 yr old today. A few tufts if grass have melted out so he got to make a couple finds on his BD!
> 
> View attachment 245848


Looking Good, Tappy. LUV those blue roan Cockers.

NB


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Tappy is 1 yr old today. A few tufts if grass have melted out so he got to make a couple finds on his BD!
> 
> View attachment 245848


as i mentioned in an earlier thread this last year has just evaporated. I had meant to ask is Tappy ready for some Puppy stake entries this spring?
Steve you have been in pup mode and advanced training now for the better part of 7 years good job, with several FBC, Good Job!!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> as i mentioned in an earlier thread this last year has just evaporated. I had meant to ask is Tappy ready for some Puppy stake entries this spring?
> Steve you have been in pup mode and advanced training now for the better part of 7 years good job, with several FBC, Good Job!!


The plan is to have him run a puppy or two this spring. Timing will depend on when our snow goes as he needs a little more steady work while moving. So as long as we don't have some super late spring he should run a puppy in Minnesota early May and maybe early June in Sudbury. 

Murphy will be getting a steady dose of Amateurs trying to build on his 5 AM points. Zac is going to get a couple trials here and there to keep him sharp and give Karen experience handling. 

Thanks Hal.


----------



## gundogguy

ESS babies taking a break Mirra x Badger 10 in all..


----------



## dauber

What a difference a week can make! Last week blizzards, lotsa snow, cold and wind. This week warm, Tstorms, lotsa rain and lotsa wind. 
Anyway the rain really dropped our snow and a few bare patches now out in the training field. The cover is flat, but the opportunity for marking drills is there now. Yesterday was a chance to work the dogs on marks in high wind and dropping temp conditions. Had a gust of 71 mph while training. The dogs weren't very sharp, could be working in high wind or not being worked in a month or so. Today was much better on Hilman's Y drill, maybe 40mph wind isn't too bad after 60-70mph. If the snow doesn't pile up in the next few days should be able to add some factors into the retrieves and do some flushing drills. 3 weeks to Fox Valley trial weekend. Hie on spanielers!


----------



## dauber

Winter is back but still doing a little dog work. Here is a vid of Zac retrieving after steady drill. Zac was sharp today.


----------



## gundogguy

Valley Forge, PA The point machine FC CFC Zeta qualifies for another Open Championship with a 3rd place finish Under T







eam Salmy's banner, As Mike has often said "that little bitch saved my butter again!"
Her 3rd year year in row qualifying for the Nat Champs


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

CONGRATS, HAL.

The Warrior Princess has started off 2017 with a BANG. She is a remarkable field trial warrior.

Any thoughts in breeding her sometime down the road? She certainly has the "field performance" boxes all checked!!


----------



## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Valley Forge, PA The point machine FC CFC Zeta qualifies for another Open Championship with a 3rd place finish Under T
> View attachment 248734
> eam Salmy's banner, As Mike has often said "that little bitch saved my butter again!"
> Her 3rd year year in row qualifying for the Nat Champs


Congrats again, Zeta! WTG!


----------



## dauber

Congrats Hal, Nancy and Team Salmy!! Way to get going in the spring!!


----------



## gundogguy

Thanks guys, she is as you know is a very exciting dog have started,finish her training and let Mike Wallace put some 50,000 miles on campaigning. she has crisscrossed North America three times, East to West and north to south. She is an absolute joy.
She however is my last ESS to start and finish training. She will be 5 in July and hopefully she and I will explore the covers together for the next 5-7 yrs and both enjoy our retirement
together. 



NATTY BUMPO said:


> CONGRATS, HAL.
> 
> The Warrior Princess has started off 2017 with a BANG. She is a remarkable field trial warrior.
> 
> Any thoughts in breeding her sometime down the road? She certainly has the "field performance" boxes all checked!!


As long as I have something to say about it, The warrior Princess will always be a virgin. There has been some discussion between the War Dept. and Team Salmy about a lease agreement.
However I am not convinced. I see many great breedings taking place across the country but I do not see many new people getting into trialing and making these good sound pups all they can be.
Zeta was the product of a great breeding, however she is only dog in the litter that has made FC. I have always felt bad for Zeta's brothers and sisters. Zeta made an excellent pick of her owners. I know we have the receipts to show for it. Would not change a thing if we had to do over.


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> Thanks guys, she is as you know is a very exciting dog have started,finish her training and let Mike Wallace put some 50,000 miles on campaigning. she has crisscrossed North America three times, East to West and north to south. She is an absolute joy.
> She however is my last ESS to start and finish training. She will be 5 in July and hopefully she and I will explore the covers together for the next 5-7 yrs and both enjoy our retirement
> together.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as I have something to say about it, The warrior Princess will always be a virgin. There has been some discussion between the War Dept. and Team Salmy about a lease agreement.
> However I am not convinced. I see many great breedings taking place across the country but I do not see many new people getting into trialing and making these good sound pups all they can be.
> Zeta was the product of a great breeding, however she is only dog in the litter that has made FC. I have always felt bad for Zeta's brothers and sisters. Zeta made an excellent pick of her owners. I know we have the receipts to show for it. Would not change a thing if we had to do over.


Sorry for the repost though there was a thought line I over looked and fail to add to this thread.
Over the years Nancy and I have reared some 12 litters of pups, that anounted to some 15-16 breedings in total ( not all breedings took). We only bred when we wanted another pup or two to start, we both take a dim view of folks that breed and do not stay vested in the breeding by keeping a pup. As a breeder the only you can really tell if it is a suitable mating is to train the pups and witness first hand what you produced when you put the pedal to the medal.
That might furnish a broader explanation why missy Zeta will stay single and never have a boy friend and why I not convinced to involve us in a lease arraignment


----------



## gundogguy

Word on the street is that dauber's Murphy, picked off a red in Wisconsin, and something about a Gunner's choice award. You know the best upland guns are usually spanieler's.
Hopefully they will have some pics to share.


----------



## dauber

Thanks GDG!
Yes the Fox Valley weekend is our annual start to the Spring trial season for us. Murphy got us off to a good start by hanging in there for 3 series and having a knockout 3rd. We ran a narrow hedge row in the 3rd and had 2 nice long finds and one long retrieve. He pulled out a third place and guns award. He took a nice runner in the second series well into the woods that the gun team loved. 









Saturday Mrs Dauber ran Zac, had 2 nice series going but Zac decided to go for his bracemates retrieve. We know now what he needs a little work on. 

Today, Sunday I ran Murphy in the Amateur again. He had a nice quartering downwind run and 2 nice retrieves. His second was one contact quartering upwind where he made a 45 yard find over a low hill with nice retrieve and a quartering downwind nice find he made leaping catch for a trap. The 3rd series was a crosswind down a small 2 track with wooded and brush hedges on each side. He made one nice find and retrieve, then a huge long find and flush. On the retrieve he flushed another bird. But he held it together and made the retrieve of the winged bird. 
The judges thought his performance was worthy of a blue ribbon. He now has his Amateur win and 7 points. Murphy was a "good boy" this weekend.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Wowwzzeerr,,,,,,!! *BIG CONGRATS!*

Young Murphy had quite the weekend. He sure racked up a good load of ribbons, trophy hardware and, not to mention points.

Nice write-up too. And LUV the hat, Steve. Its a Youper thing and nice and toasty (And I have one just like it)


----------



## gundogguy

Way to hold your standards Steve, Those Badgers and Golden Gophers prolly hate to see Team Dauber coming right now. Where to next?


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Way to hold your standards Steve, Those Badgers and Golden Gophers prolly hate to see Team Dauber coming right now. Where to next?


Central Wisconsin April 22,23. Our fields are opened up now so we can get back to more serious training. 

Murphy's last retrieve was one of those confusing trial situations that you cannot duplicate, only deal with as each factor (both seen and unseen) comes. 
As I said above, it was down a 2 track with wooded and brushy hedges on each side with birds on both sides. It was a right to left crosswind. So running this I wanted him to be taking big bites way on the right side outside of the hedge and just make a few appearances to the left to make sure nothing had squirted out the left. On this contact he he got out a little outside of the right gun put his cheek to the wind and ran straight out about 30-40 yards. I was just about to give him a turn whistle when I see his head swing left, he turns sharply left drives thru the right hedge, across the 2 track, into the left hedge dropping his head I knew the bird was there. He it went straight up with him leaping under and he dropped his butt. The bird after in the air turned and went right or downwind and the right gun dropped it outside of his position and up the course a bit. I sent Murph on the tap, looked like a good line through the factors of the road and right hedge when he caught a scent turned back left and put up a low flying sucker he almost caught in the air. As it separates I tooted and he stopped. The judge then said let's go up to him and send him from there to the area of the fall that was then about straight downwind about 30-40 yards. We fight our way thru the hedge and I walk up to Murph and see a chukar walking right between us and where the fall was. The judge tells me that is NOT his bird, his is dead about 40 yards out. So now I'm thinking "boy what can we do to get him downwind of the fall, do I let him get this bird and risk him getting even more ramped up? Do I send him way back behind the fall and away from the bird that just run through which he saw as well then try to give him a left to scent dead bird before runner? I decided on latter option, it took 2 or 3 right backs to get him away from the bird he badly wanted. Then gave him a left downwind of the fall and he didn't indicate anything. The judge then tells me stop him right there and she wanted to talk to the gun. I stopped him and we waited a minute, then she walked back and tells me the shot bird was the one we saw running. It had only been winged and started to take off as we walked up. So then I gave him a left over to where we'd last saw the bird, he dropped his head tracked 20 yards and it took off out of a clump where he caught it and gently handed it to me. 

I thought the judge did a great job handling a tough situation by not having us struggle once he didn't indicate. As it turned out a difficult situation is an opportunity to shine. That is trialing and what I enjoy about it.


----------



## JAM

WOW Team Dauber! Awesome job all weekend - especially Murphy's blue! WTG!


----------



## gundogguy

Great explanation Steve. So lets go back some 23 months ago and see the beginning of the solid foundation that Murphy acquired under your tutelage.
Placing in a trial is all about a solid foundation in the basics. All be it takes more than sound mechanics to make to the winners circle. Place training allows the pup to learn quite quickly the basics with very little pressure. By learning those basics, handler and pup can move on to the more important aspects of being a solid performer in the field with out duress. Murphy is a fine example of dog that thoroughly understands the basics which allows him to perform under tough situations.


----------



## dauber

Oh boy do we remember that weekend! Barrett's smokehouse!! Yes the place training is so great for developing. He could go to new places with new distractions and still preform. 
Here is his first placeboard training right after coming home.


----------



## gundogguy

Remember it well. we made such a good impression on Barretts we pushed them over the top, they opened another store in the county.

Ah yes pups first board training sessions, use to just love the time spent with Zeta and "the Place"

Her she is at 14 weeks


----------



## gundogguy

Dateline April 6th near Princetown Minn.
Road warrior Princess Zeta finishes her 10 trial in row, Open and amatuer combined she is a picture of consistency at St Croix Valley. Really nice entry of 43 dogs. she also was awarded 3rd place over those 43 dogs enetered
This should quite possible be FC CFC Zeta's last Open. Of course she is qualified for the Nat. Champs in Nov which will be in Minnesota and the Amatuer champs in Utah

Hie-on!


----------



## dauber

Congrats Hal and Zeta! That is a great feat completing 10 trials in a row!!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Dateline April 6th near Princetown Minn.
> Road warrior Princess Zeta finishes her 10 trial in row, Open and amatuer combined she is a picture of consistency at St Croix Valley. Really nice entry of 43 dogs. she also was awarded 3rd place over those 43 dogs enetered
> This should quite possible be FC CFC Zeta's last Open. Of course she is qualified for the Nat. Champs in Nov which will be in Minnesota and the Amatuer champs in Utah
> 
> 
> Boo Yaahh........ Zeta What a run she's had!
> 
> Hie-on!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 251194


----------



## JAM

Nice job, Zeta! WTG!


----------



## gundogguy

Zeta trial watch. Minnesota ESS trial is run in the old tradition, alternating series between the Open and Amatuer with the Puppie stake some where in between. Open 3rd is done and it is in the hands of judges Amatuer 3rd is in progress, placements for both stakes will come later this evening.
This is definitely Zeta last Open AA. she was called back to third, and that's all we know at this time.
Big entry for this trial what with NatOpen and Nat Am winner Jeff Miller on the judges panel.
Looking forward to seeing Team Salmy, Zeta and Mike Wallace late this evening or early tomorrow morning.
Glad I had wood to split and stack and taters to plant, beautiful day in Southern Michigan


----------



## gundogguy

And as it turn out no love from the judges for Team Salmy...
It is why it is called a Trial it will trial you! Press on regardless two more events on the spring schedule!


----------



## Gavan

Hi


dauber said:


> Central Wisconsin April 22,23. Our fields are opened up now so we can get back to more serious training.
> 
> Murphy's last retrieve was one of those confusing trial situations that you cannot duplicate, only deal with as each factor (both seen and unseen) comes.
> As I said above, it was down a 2 track with wooded and brushy hedges on each side with birds on both sides. It was a right to left crosswind. So running this I wanted him to be taking big bites way on the right side outside of the hedge and just make a few appearances to the left to make sure nothing had squirted out the left. On this contact he he got out a little outside of the right gun put his cheek to the wind and ran straight out about 30-40 yards. I was just about to give him a turn whistle when I see his head swing left, he turns sharply left drives thru the right hedge, across the 2 track, into the left hedge dropping his head I knew the bird was there. He it went straight up with him leaping under and he dropped his butt. The bird after in the air turned and went right or downwind and the right gun dropped it outside of his position and up the course a bit. I sent Murph on the tap, looked like a good line through the factors of the road and right hedge when he caught a scent turned back left and put up a low flying sucker he almost caught in the air. As it separates I tooted and he stopped. The judge then said let's go up to him and send him from there to the area of the fall that was then about straight downwind about 30-40 yards. We fight our way thru the hedge and I walk up to Murph and see a chukar walking right between us and where the fall was. The judge tells me that is NOT his bird, his is dead about 40 yards out. So now I'm thinking "boy what can we do to get him downwind of the fall, do I let him get this bird and risk him getting even more ramped up? Do I send him way back behind the fall and away from the bird that just run through which he saw as well then try to give him a left to scent dead bird before runner? I decided on latter option, it took 2 or 3 right backs to get him away from the bird he badly wanted. Then gave him a left downwind of the fall and he didn't indicate anything. The judge then tells me stop him right there and she wanted to talk to the gun. I stopped him and we waited a minute, then she walked back and tells me the shot bird was the one we saw running. It had only been winged and started to take off as we walked up. So then I gave him a left over to where we'd last saw the bird, he dropped his head tracked 20 yards and it took off out of a clump where he caught it and gently handed it to me.
> 
> I thought the judge did a great job handling a tough situation by not having us struggle once he didn't indicate. As it turned out a difficult situation is an opportunity to shine. That is trialing and what I enjoy about it.


Hi Steve,
Love hearing the blow by blow on your run and congratulations on your placement with Murphy. Having said that I tend to disagree that your judge handled the situation well. Told you that the bird you saw walking was definitely NOT the bird and apparently it was. Then had you trying to handle past a live bird you both saw? If you were hunting would you handle your dog past a live bird to get to one that was supposedly dead (dead based on what?)? I guess I would have to be there but sounds like the judge was in over his/her head. If I thought the bird was dead I would walk you to an angle that takes the live bird out of play, flushed the goofy bastard myself and then had you handle, have your dog flush the bird then walked you up to your dog and handle from there or ask the gun BEFORE all of that other silliness before having you try to handle around a live bird to a dead one. Best thing the judge did was....give you a ribbon.
Regards, Scott


----------



## dauber

Gavan said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> Hi Steve,
> Love hearing the blow by blow on your run and congratulations on your placement with Murphy. Having said that I tend to disagree that your judge handled the situation well. Told you that the bird you saw walking was definitely NOT the bird and apparently it was. Then had you trying to handle past a live bird you both saw? If you were hunting would you handle your dog past a live bird to get to one that was supposedly dead (dead based on what?)? I guess I would have to be there but sounds like the judge was in over his/her head. If I thought the bird was dead I would walk you to an angle that takes the live bird out of play, flushed the goofy bastard myself and then had you handle, have your dog flush the bird then walked you up to your dog and handle from there or ask the gun BEFORE all of that other silliness before having you try to handle around a live bird to a dead one. Best thing the judge did was....give you a ribbon.
> Regards, Scott


Hi Scott,
You make some good points. I'm sure the judge has gone over that in their mind afterward as well. No matter how we got into the situation I give the judge credit for getting out of it well. I have been in that situation with much more experienced judges who left me out there flushing bird after bird. 

Hope Gaven is recovering well and hope you are doing well Scott!


----------



## Gavan

dauber said:


> Hi Scott,
> You make some good points. I'm sure the judge has gone over that in their mind afterward as well. No matter how we got into the situation I give the judge credit for getting out of it well. I have been in that situation with much more experienced judges who left me out there flushing bird after bird.
> 
> Hope Gaven is recovering well and hope you are doing well Scott!


He is doing well and I can't wait for grouse season.


----------



## babyelvis

I sure this has already been covered but I am considering a Springer Spaniel, could anyone recommend a good breeder here in Michigan?


----------



## gundogguy

essft.com is where to find breeders. As for good breeders you need to hang out at springer field trials. The Spring season is close to being over. The fall circuit begins in Sept.
Training groups are few and not very closely knit. Honest there are just not many springer puppy mills left in Michigan and that is a good thing.
essft.com will be your best bet it is large site so scroll down the page to pups, dogs for sale.


----------



## dauber

Central Wisconsin cocker trial today, a good day for Murphy and I with a blue ribbon giving him enough points for his AFC pending water. 
Photo credit to Gardian Photography


----------



## gundogguy

Good Job team Dauber and the beat goes on!


----------



## michgundog

babyelvis said:


> I sure this has already been covered but I am considering a Springer Spaniel, could anyone recommend a good breeder here in Michigan?


Check your PM


----------



## gundogguy

Dateline April 25 Canisteo, New York Southern Tier field trial association Just received notice that FC CFC Zeta is now FC CFC *AFC* Zeta, by token of her taking the Blue in the Southern Tier Amatuer all-age stake. Her amatuer record is fairly short and to the point 8 stakes entered and finished 2 wins a 2nd and third.
Six bold fines on pheasants and 6 spot-on! no handled retrieves over 3 series, running against 27 entries. No whistle used as well throughout the course of the trial. Nancy Jo's 27years of amatuer handler experience has taught her well how to show a dog to the judging panel.


----------



## JAM

Congrats to AFC Murphy and Team Dauber and also to the new AFC Zeta and Mr. & Mrs. GDG! WTG!


----------



## dauber

gundogguy said:


> Been out of the spaniel loop for a bit any pups FBEC or FBSS available?


The few litters I know of just recently sold the last ones. Rumi might still have one.


----------



## dauber

I guess there is s few Cocker pups out there yet. 

http://www.fieldcockers.com/forsale.html


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> The few litters I know of just recently sold the last ones. Rumi might still have one.


Fieldbred Cockers are enjoying a fairly recent wave of increasing interest. The breed has been mostly held in what I call "Good Hands" up until now. By that I mean mostly experienced dog folks who are very selective in picking breeding stock which have all had health certifications secured, excellent conformation and temperament, and field performance testing success too. The culling process is rigorous as these breeders only breed their best dogs. These people are what I would call "good breeders"; perhaps 10% of the people breeding field dogs of all breeds are in this category IMHO.

The other 90% are merely "puppy producers", simply breeding Ready to Handy.


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Fieldbred Cockers are enjoying a fairly recent wave of increasing interest. The breed has been mostly held in what I call "Good Hands" up until now. By that I mean mostly experienced dog folks who are very selective in picking breeding stock which have all had health certifications secured, excellent conformation and temperament, and field performance testing success too. The culling process is rigorous as these breeders only breed their best dogs. These people are what I would call "good breeders"; perhaps 10% of the people breeding field dogs of all breeds are in this category IMHO.
> 
> The other 90% are merely "puppy producers", simply breeding Ready to Handy.


Natty, I could not agree more. You have a rare insight that only few dog owners possess.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> I guess there is s few Cocker pups out there yet.
> 
> http://www.fieldcockers.com/forsale.html



Dauber, Looking good! Thanks for the update!


----------



## gundogguy

The latest Paul French offering. Her in late July really gets the the mind stirring about the upcoming autumn. This was in Jan 2016 in the UK.


----------



## slammer

If anyone here is interested in a 7 month old female I am considering selling her. She's a little smaller than I would have liked at about 22 lbs so far and I have a baby on the way so I decided to stick with the lab for a bit. She's a nice dog, fast and snappy and just lightly started on yard work and promoting natural retrieve. 
She is out of FC Paragons Bratch BhanbMacaoidh of Hellfire and a Prairie Rose bitch. PM me if interested.


----------



## gundogguy

slammer said:


> If anyone here is interested in a 7 month old female I am considering selling her. She's a little smaller than I would have liked at about 22 lbs so far and I have a baby on the way so I decided to stick with the lab for a bit. She's a nice dog, fast and snappy and just lightly started on yard work and promoting natural retrieve.
> She is out of FC Paragons Bratch BhanbMacaoidh of Hellfire and a Prairie Rose bitch. PM me if interested.



Pictures would be nice? What is the name of the breeder and their location? How much spaniel training has been done? And who did it? 7-10 months of age is a critical time for a spaniel to move into transition, in my humble opinion. Transition being that period of time a spaniel becomes a finished gundog or possible a trial prospect.


----------



## slammer

gundogguy said:


> Pictures would be nice? What is the name of the breeder and their location? How much spaniel training has been done? And who did it? 7-10 months of age is a critical time for a spaniel to move into transition, in my humble opinion. Transition being that period of time a spaniel becomes a finished gundog or possible a trial prospect.


Can't post pics here....if you are interested send me a message and I'll get you the info


----------



## slammer

gundogguy said:


> Pictures would be nice? What is the name of the breeder and their location? How much spaniel training has been done? And who did it? 7-10 months of age is a critical time for a spaniel to move into transition, in my humble opinion. Transition being that period of time a spaniel becomes a finished gundog or possible a trial prospect.


Praire rose is in MN. The stud was owned by a local pro out there and the bitch a local trial/gun dog. She is handling nice, will hup at side and on delivery, been intro to birds and gun. She is ready to move on which is why she is being considered. If she don't sell I will start her on casting or send her out to be broke


----------



## gundogguy

slammer said:


> Praire rose is in MN. The stud was owned by a local pro out there and the bitch a local trial/gun dog. She is handling nice, will hup at side and on delivery, been intro to birds and gun. She is ready to move on which is why she is being considered. If she don't sell I will start her on casting or send her out to be broke


Prairie Rose does not want her back? I would thought as the breeder they would have had 1st right of refusal/ hmm... as a note have her deliver to your front and not the side.. and as such we Spanieliers have no casting drills as do the retriever types. Quartering drills yes casting drills no. Hope thing s work out for the lil dog!


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## slammer

I'm following the Ryglen cocker guy on you tube and there are casting drills and I require my dogs to cast for cold blinds. I'm a dog guy not a spanielier


gundogguy said:


> Prairie Rose does not want her back? I would thought as the breeder they would have had 1st right of refusal/ hmm... as a note have her deliver to your front and not the side.. and as such we Spanieliers have no casting drills as do the retriever types. Quartering drills yes casting drills no. Hope thing s work out for the lil dog!


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## gundogguy

Probable should be listed in the 
Forums Trading Post- Sell/Buy -  Hunting Dogs


slammer said:


> I'm following the Ryglen cocker guy on you tube and there are casting drills and I require my dogs to cast for cold blinds. I'm a dog guy not a spanielier


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## gundogguy

Here is great read for Spanieliers and any one that appreciates the history of trialing standards and breeding.
From an issue of Sports Illustrated 1955. 
https://www.si.com/vault/1955/11/14/597302/field-trials-for-spaniels-and-people
Hie-on!


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## gundogguy

Hunting a Cocker Spaniel in the Beating Line of a Game Shoot By Nick Ridley

Nice little clip form a commercial shoot in the UK.
Lots of Birds, good solid dog manners and some nice slo-mo scenes.


----------



## jasperdog

IMG_0623




__
jasperdog


__
Aug 31, 2017








Sorry about the photo..

We have had our year old ECS out on some pen reared birds the last week..

She is a Stonewalker dog and has exceeded our expectations so far. 

Understands the wind some, works the cover types with minimal handling, has stayed in range in general..

We are working on the retrieving but she has hunted dead pretty well so far. 

She did get a pile of seeds in her eyes today, producing some corneal abrasions. We were glad we took her in when we noticed the seeds. Mac, the Vet who is on here some, said it is not that uncommon. She is on a couple different eye drops and will go back for a check next week.

We are interested to see her on wild birds ( if we can find some) coming up... Whole different ball game..

So far though, she is a treat...


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## gundogguy

Spaniels having fun with Pheasants and Woodcock. I might comment that these are not trial dogs but just well trained gundogs very interesting honor at about 10:05 in the video






G'day Mates


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## dauber

The fall hunting and trialing season is almost upon us. Hope everyone has an enjoyable hunting season and success at trials. 
We have a few weekends of trials planned (starting this weekend) and as much hunting in between as we can do.


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> The fall hunting and trialing season is almost upon us. Hope everyone has an enjoyable hunting season and success at trials.
> We have a few weekends of trials planned (starting this weekend) and as much hunting in between as we can do.


Let the games begin!!


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## Gavan

Jasperdog it's a goo idea to carry saline solution and flushing the dogs eyes after training or hunting in the season when the seeds are falling off the grass. Don't need anything fancy. Just saline off the shelf. If you don't do that you'll end up with the vet visits you described.


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## jasperdog

Thank you. The vet gave us that advice as well.

Nellie's bag now has a couple different versions of saline eye solution. Interestingly, she does not seem to mind the flushing...

Headed out early tomorrow for some pen reared training. Hope it is not too hot..

Hoping to look for some grouse into next week.


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## michgundog

Share on Facebook


----------



## JAM

Tilden Valley ESS Club's 2017 FT Placements

Open:
1st AFC Doorcreek's Midnight Thunder "RUMBLE" O/H: Darrell Kurszewski
2nd FC AFC Harvest Moon's High Voltage "SURGE" O: Mike Petrich H: Jason Givens
3rd AFC Warrener's Short-Eared Owl "CLANCY" O/H: Bob Merrill
4th AFC Sandbluffs Francine "FRAN" O/H: Mike Keough

Amateur:
1st Rock haven's One of the Boys "BRODY" O/H: James O'Keefe
2nd Pheasant Feathers Canadian Breeze "AVA" O/H: Jerry Barrett
3rd Winterwind Rock and Roadie "ROADIE" O/H: Bob Sansom
4th Blackbrier's Emerald Isle Absolute "EMMIE" O: Wm. & Jennifer Marenich & M. Pollack H: Mike Pollack

Puppy:
1st MTMYST Come About "TACK" O: Paula Mazurek H: Jason Givens
2nd Pheasant Feathers Game Changer "GRACIE" O: Keith Ruby H: Jason Givens
3rd Rockey's Solo "SOLO" O: Chuck Cloninger H: Jason Givens
4th Rockhaven's Litle Beauty "FIONA" O: James O'Keefe & Elaine Vanderslice H: Jason Givens


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## gundogguy

Well now I know it is autumn, Tilden Valley's ESS trial is in the books. Southern Michigan coming up next, then prolly Euclid or Ravenna. Supposed to start cooling down soon!
Nice to see Jason Givens has some talent coming up through the ranks.


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## dauber

Cockers doing what they are bred for! Smoke making the retrieve after a nice flush.


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## michgundog

Southern Michigan Springer Spaniel Training Club 2017 field trial recap.

We had a 19 Open dogs and 6 puppies on Saturday. Sunday we had 19 Amateur all age dogs.

Open Placements:

1st Ivy Ken Willis
2nd Fibbs Ken Willis
3rd Swift Mike Wallace
4th Ben Ken Willis

Puppies

1st Grace Ken Willis
2nd Storm Ken Willis
3rd Chase Ben Martin
4th Monty Ben Martin

Blanock Award(best dog handled by an Amateur in the Open)

Cora Justin Smith

Amateur All Age

1st Freddy Dick Taylor
2nd Sniper Kathy Nestor
3rd Bandit Dan Tuttle
4th Lue Paul Haering


----------



## gundogguy

Open Placements:
3rd Swift ( Ticket to the Nationals) Mike Wallace
/QUOTE]

Tongue in cheek. A placement in a small trial just not good enough for M. Wallace. He comes to my house, sleeps eats my food, dinner and breakfast and then takes our dog Zeta home with him. Like he said he needs one more "bullet" in his gun on the truck. To compete with in the rest of the Autumn circuit.[/QUOTE]


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## dauber

Young Tappy started his hunting career this week and has retrieved his first grouse.


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## gundogguy

Very nice! Though it is not "fair" Tappy has had more preparation than 75% of the dog in the woods right now. Even at his young age. Good job Dauber!!


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

Beautiful snapshot, Steve. A nice hold on that pah'tridge, centered on the back and all tail feathers intact! Good work, Tappy!

When Mrs. Bumpo gets back from her trip, we are headed up over the bridge next week. Save some for us!! And Scout will have to carry the load all by himself this time, as we lost our Rocky to a malignant splenic tumor this spring (Despite moving Heaven and Earth to save him).


----------



## gundogguy

Been there done that Natty, Splenic tumors are quite common. Nancy and I know your pain.
Hunt-on!


----------



## michgundog

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Beautiful snapshot, Steve. A nice hold on that pah'tridge, centered on the back and all tail feathers intact! Good work, Tappy!
> 
> When Mrs. Bumpo gets back from her trip, we are headed up over the bridge next week. Save some for us!! And Scout will have to carry the load all by himself this time, as we lost our Rocky to a malignant splenic tumor this spring (Despite moving Heaven and Earth to save him).


Sorry for loss Natty B ☹☹


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## JAM

So sorry Mr. & Mrs. Natty B.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

THANKS for the Kind Words, Guys. He has left a big hole in our hearts but we are going up to visit some old haunts with Scout and remember the good times.

NB


----------



## METRO1

19 flushes only 3 kills ,mossy and shelly not happy with shooter this weekend.grouse are either down this year where i hunt or guys from ohio,new jersey,PA that found my spot ive been hunting for past 20 years are puttin g the hurt to them.think marsha and i will put the 28g and 410 away this weekend and try the 16g and 20g


----------



## dauber

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Beautiful snapshot, Steve. A nice hold on that pah'tridge, centered on the back and all tail feathers intact! Good work, Tappy!
> 
> When Mrs. Bumpo gets back from her trip, we are headed up over the bridge next week. Save some for us!! And Scout will have to carry the load all by himself this time, as we lost our Rocky to a malignant splenic tumor this spring (Despite moving Heaven and Earth to save him).


Sorry to hear about Rocky Natty. 
Good luck in the Yoop! Grouse numbers are decent, woodcock are spotty on east end better west.


----------



## METRO1

dauber said:


> Sorry to hear about Rocky Natty.
> Good luck in the Yoop! Grouse numbers are decent, woodcock are spotty on east end better west.


Thats good news about grouse in U.P.theres 16 of us so far with 20 cockers and springers making a week trip up there.some gems around falls and private amish property with state land around.staying at a guys place who bought pup in Engadine area i believe.he s got nice cabin.guys with pups from PA.GA and Il all making trip to hunt together.going to be fun week.nice to break up in groups and cover ground.


----------



## michgundog

METRO1 said:


> Thats good news about grouse in U.P.theres 16 of us so far with 20 cockers and springers making a week trip up there.some gems around falls and private amish property with state land around.staying at a guys place who bought pup in Engadine area i believe.he s got nice cabin.guys with pups from PA.GA and Il all making trip to hunt together.going to be fun week.nice to break up in groups and cover ground.


That's a huge group and a lot of dog power. I hope you all shoot straight, stay away from that Bird Dog blueberry burbon paint thinner lol


----------



## METRO1

michgundog said:


> That's a huge group and a lot of dog power. I hope you all shoot straight, stay away from that Bird Dog blueberry burbon paint thinner lol


Load up your camper and dogs and join us


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## METRO1

Its the bird dog cinnamon not blueberry


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

GO ZETA GO..........!!


----------



## gundogguy

A wee bit over 5 yrs ago lil miss Zeta came to know us. Our deal was to spare no resources in making her the best she could be. Her deal was to sell out on every run and make the whole process of bird finding seamless.

And she did, known across America as the Warrior Princess, her trialing days have now come to an end.Leaving the Champs in the 3rd series yesterday. Nancy and I are so thankful for all of those folks that contributed to our lil dogs development and success.
If any one was going to have a "last dog" this is the dog i would wish for every one to have.
A special shout out to Mike Wallace her breeder and handler in Open event, you have been a great team mate and pal. Soon, she will be home for good, oh so looking forward to having her as my lap dog and companion.


----------



## Jaredsdog

Congratulations on one a heck of a career. 

Her list of accomplishments is nothing short of extraordinary! Having read all the posts on this thread to see her progress and win has been a lot of fun for me I can only imagine how you must feel about such a special dog.

I'm glad you get to enjoy her now and look forward to hearing the exploits of retired life!!!


----------



## michgundog

Dog #1 Tucker's Little Bo aka Bo with Gary Riddle as the handler was sired by my Finn and Creekside Sadie. The dog is only 3 made 2 NOC to 4th series in both. He was also the 2015 US high point puppy. Gary said, he got a bad break on his second retrieve, but was really doing well. I only mention this because I actually had a sell out refer to me as "meat dog breeder". So I'm having a good laugh! Way to go Bo and Gary Riddle! Here's a great picture of Bo flushing a pheasant







he's "chop off the ole block".


----------



## Jaredsdog

Great photo!!!!!


----------



## JAM

Great photo! I read Gary R's account of Bo's tough luck on FB. He also recounted the great run Bo had up to the last bird. 

WTG Gary, Mike, Finn & Sadie! You should all be proud!


----------



## METRO1

Sweet pic


----------



## olddouble




----------



## olddouble

Maybe it was reading over 300 pages of TSCII or maybe I was just ready for a change, but after more than 30 years of pointing dogs I took the plunge and have entered the spaniel world. This is Jenny from Jim Karlovec's kennel. Guess I need to change my avatar.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

olddouble said:


> Maybe it was reading over 300 pages of TSCII or maybe I was just ready for a change, but after more than 30 years of pointing dogs I took the plunge and have entered the spaniel world. This is Jenny from Jim Karlovec's kennel. Guess I need to change my avatar.


OH MY GOODNESS, WHAT A CUTIE!! 

BIG welcome to the wonderful world of working spaniels. Former PD guy (40 + years of Britts) here myself. Excellent bloodlines there.

You are in the right place; tons of experience hereabouts for training, hunting FDs and all things Spaniel.

NB

PS We will need more pics as she grows up!


----------



## JAM

WOW! What a beauty! Welcome to the spaniel world Old Double and Jenny! Let the fun begin!


----------



## jasperdog

Nellie at 15 months is figuring retrieving out on her own...
We could not find too many grouse so we are on the pen reared pheasant grind...


----------



## jasperdog

not so wet here..


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

That's a good lookin' pooch, JD.


----------



## gundogguy

Spaniel pupsters and young'ens The hits just keep coming! already looking forward to the progress. Keep us updated!!


----------



## jasperdog

Thank You... 

She is a babe and makes friends wherever she goes.. On the ground she is very focused..

She is a Stonewalker dog (Kim Wiley) Briar x Liza . Both parents have plenty of Trial Placements..

A bunch of Fallen Wings in there... 

I just basically set her down and stay out of the way.. 

Not trying to win any trials. I am just an old slowpoke hunter...


----------



## gundogguy

olddouble said:


> Maybe it was reading over 300 pages of TSCII or maybe I was just ready for a change, but after more than 30 years of pointing dogs I took the plunge and have entered the spaniel world. This is Jenny from Jim Karlovec's kennel. Guess I need to change my avatar.


On a trip to the UK spending time at Saighton Kennel own by Talbot Radcliff, met and spent some with Jungle Jim, He is a hoot. Have seen Jim often over the year since those early days.
L/R Myself,me wife Nancy, Jim Karlovic, Leroy VanKirk, Andrew Greene
Best of training for you and your pup!
Hal


----------



## gundogguy

jasperdog said:


> Thank You...
> 
> She is a babe and makes friends wherever she goes.. On the ground she is very focused..
> 
> She is a Stonewalker dog (Kim Wiley) Briar x Liza . Both parents have plenty of Trial Placements..
> 
> A bunch of Fallen Wings in there...
> 
> I just basically set her down and stay out of the way..
> 
> *Not trying to win any trials. I am just an old slowpoke hunter*...


Known the Wiley's for ever. Have shot over Kim's dogs on many occasions, In training and in trial. Stonewalkers is an excellent blood line. Certainly not a blood line that I would think of as "slowpoke", fur balls of fire or pocket rockets more like it.
Best of training.
Hal


----------



## jasperdog

She is a little rocketship and while it takes a little handling on occasion, she generally stays in range..

When you first set her down she might be outrunning her nose a little, but given a few minutes she has been figuring that out. I am also learning to read her animation a little. 

When we picked her up Kim, who chooses his words to humans carefully, told us “ She is a thinker..” . That was basically it from him. He was dead on with that and we have sort of made that our motto with her... Funny how fewer words are better sometimes...


----------



## olddouble

gundogguy said:


> On a trip to the UK spending time at Saighton Kennel own by Talbot Radcliff, met and spent some with Jungle Jim, He is a hoot. Have seen Jim often over the year since those early days.
> L/R Myself,me wife Nancy, Jim Karlovic, Leroy VanKirk, Andrew Greene
> Best of training for you and your pup!


Thanks. I am excited to get going. Pup keeps getting bolder each day.


----------



## olddouble

Nice picture.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

I realized I have not posted much on here lately. A lot of you have probably seen recent pics of Jake on other forums but for those who haven't here is a couple from the past couple of months





































Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


----------



## METRO1

Metro s shotgun shelly intensely waiting to be sent on retrieve.shelly laid down some great work at haymarsh european shoot and walk up







last sunday.watches those pines like at hawk.58 bird hunt tommorrow and back for last hunt at haymarsh on 15th then time to focus on turkeys,perch and walleye


----------



## METRO1

Metro s mossy and metro s shotgun shelly turn in another great day of work.another happy group of hunters today.


----------



## jasperdog

Central Wisconsin Sporting Spaniels
March 24, 2018
Open Stake
1st - Daisy O/H: Dan Wright
2nd - Auggie O/H: Jerry Mayer
3rd - Murphy O: Steve and Karen Rodock H: Steve Rodock
4th - Rumor O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Kim Wiley
Guns - Hopper O: Chad Leonard H: Kim Wiley

Amateur Stake
1st - Cedric O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Bethann Wiley
2nd - Cada O: John and Chris Dartt H: Chris Dartt
3rd - Cairo O/H: Deb Strohl
Guns - Cedric - H: Bethann Wiley

Puppy Stake
1st - Eddie O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Kim Wiley
2nd - Gandy O/H: Jordan Horak

March 25, 2018
Open Stake
1st - Hopper O: Chad Leonard H: Kim Wiley
2nd - Rumor O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Kim Wiley
3rd - Roxy O:Terry Besch H: Jeff Schwartz
4th - Briar O/H: Ray Takmajian
Guns - Murphy - H: Steve Rodock

Amateur Stake
1st - Cody O: Fred and Corrine Lucas H: Fred Lucas
2nd - Zac O:Steve and Karen Rodock H: Karen Rodock
3rd - Cada O: John and Chris Dartt H: Chris Dartt
4th - Duffy O: L. Suesens H: Richard Suesens
Guns - Cody - H: Fred Lucas

Puppy Stake
1st - Gandy O/H: Jordan Horak
2nd - Eddie O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Kim Wiley


Some good results for Steve and Karen this weekend...

And Eddie is my dog’s litter mate....

Way to go!!


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## dauber

Thanks Jasperdog! 
We were pleased coming outta the deep snow and no training. Young Tappy ran his first AA trial in the Amateur Saturday. He did well but got caught with a fall he didn’t see and got into next plant. Still I was quite pleased with how he did in tough conditions of high winds and poor scenting. The cover was excellent. Here is a picture of the cover.


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## METRO1

Congrats to kevin and metro s blowing smoke.smoke took 4th in nebraska trial.kevins getting him geared up for national ams.


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## michgundog

Congrats Gary....


----------



## michgundog

dauber said:


> Thanks Jasperdog!
> We were pleased coming outta the deep snow and no training. Young Tappy ran his first AA trial in the Amateur Saturday. He did well but got caught with a fall he didn’t see and got into next plant. Still I was quite pleased with how he did in tough conditions of high winds and poor scenting. The cover was excellent. Here is a picture of the cover.
> 
> View attachment 304682


Congrats Steve....


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## Hal Standish

Good account of yourselves, Team dauber 
Your acount of Tappys performance is classic " taking birds out of order" if you know what i mean....


----------



## CDN_Cocker

I hate getting the dog clipped but we finally broke down and did it once last year so might as well go with it. Ready for spring woodcock now. Jake thinks he's looking quite stylish. Groomer never seen a working cocker before. She says " he's the sweetest dog I've ever seen but what do you do about all that energy? " lol. She gave him a handkerchief. He feels quite special lol









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## sgc

Perfect timing for CDN_Cocker post above. I was just getting ready to ask how short Spaniel guys get there dogs hair cut. The picture shown is about how short I get my cocker's hair cut and I was wondering if that's OK? My wife read somewhere that their hair shouldn't be cut too short.


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## CDN_Cocker

sgc said:


> Perfect timing for CDN_Cocker post above. I was just getting ready to ask how short Spaniel guys get there dogs hair cut. The picture shown is about how short I get my cocker's hair cut and I was wondering if that's OK? My wife read somewhere that their hair shouldn't be cut too short.


I'll be honest I hate having him clipped. This is only the second time in 5 years but it grows back fast and is so much easier. I think the shorter the better. 

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## jasperdog

We ran ours pretty much every day, two miles for us, in SC from 1/15 until Monday and it was a hose off and 20 minutes of burr combing to get them out... 

She is not thrilled with her current backyard only situation here in MI... 

I asked my breeder about trimming her down the road when I got her and he was not enthused...

We may get her trimmed up soon though... 

That is a good looking dog, by the way...


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## gundogguy

Grooming is as grooming does. Dog show types would never use an electric shaver on the dogs body. Thinning shears, comb, and brush only. Electric shavers are only used on the head and muzzle for that "hey look at me look".
But lets do not turn this into a show dog site.
As a matter of course depending on the dog we shave our dogs down twice a year, just depends on the dogs coat structure and what we are doing with the dogs. Other wise the whole subject hair cutting is a non-issue. Performance is still the name of this game, not looks


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## dauber

Murphy’s new registered name is FC-AFC Fallen Wings Murph the Protector. 
He got his second AA Open win last Friday at Fox Valley with some great use of the wind, a strong nose, and buttoned retrieves.


----------



## CDN_Cocker

dauber said:


> Murphy’s new registered name is FC-AFC Fallen Wings Murph the Protector.
> He got his second AA Open win last Friday at Fox Valley with some great use of the wind, a strong nose, and buttoned retrieves.
> View attachment 305712


Congratulations dauber! For some reason I can't see pics now on tapatalk. I'm new to this app. But I'm sure he's looking great! What an accomplishment! 

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## sgc

Thanks Hal. I was just wondering if there were any health issues to worry about as far as shaving the spaniel; no other reason.


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## gundogguy

sgc said:


> Thanks Hal. I was just wondering if there were any health issues to worry about as far as shaving the spaniel; no other reason.



Clipping and grooming present no health issues.


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## Jared712

Wow congratulations!!!!


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## jasperdog

Fox Valley English Cocker Spaniel Club
Friday, March 30, 2018
Open Stake
1st - Murphy O: Steve and Karen Rodock H:Steve Rodock
2nd - Hopper O: Chad Leonard H: Kim Wiley
3rd - Sami O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Kim Wiley
4th - Lizzy O/H: Larry Hansen
Guns - Hopper

Amateur Stake
1st - Johnny O: Mike and Rumi Schroeder H: Rumi Schroeder
2nd - Pete O: Bob Diehl and Susan Sarrencino-Diehl H: Bob Diehl
3rd - Duffy O: Lara Susuens H: Richard Susuens
4th - Cairo O/H: Deb Strohl
Guns - Cairo

Puppy Stake
1st - Eddie O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Kim Wiley

Saturday, March 31, 2018
Open Stake
1st Sami - O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Kim Wiley
2nd - Nugget - O: Cameron Davis H: Tim Ness
3rd - Rumor O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Kim Wiley
4th - Hopper O: Chad Leonard H: Kim Wiley
Guns - Rumor

Amateur Stake
1st - Johnny O: Mike and Rumi Schroeder H: Rumi Schroeder
2nd - Elmo O/H: Paul Mommaerts
3rd - Winchester O/H: Vicky Dahlk
4th - Clea O/H: Deb Strohl
Guns - Johnny

Puppy Stake
1st - Eddie O: Kim and Bethann Wiley H: Kim Wiley
2nd - Bailey O: Bryan Miller H: Jason Givens
3rd - Starla O/H: Vicky Dahlk
4th - Olive O: Mr. Victor Samual Sampson Jr. H: Jason Givens


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

dauber said:


> Murphy’s new registered name is FC-AFC Fallen Wings Murph the Protector.
> He got his second AA Open win last Friday at Fox Valley with some great use of the wind, a strong nose, and buttoned retrieves.
> View attachment 305712



BIG CONGRATS, STEVE!!


----------



## gundogguy

dauber said:


> Murphy’s new registered name is FC-AFC Fallen Wings Murph the Protector.
> He got his second AA Open win last Friday at Fox Valley with some great use of the wind, a strong nose, and buttoned retrieves.
> View attachment 305712


Thur the 12th 1st day of the National Amateur Cocker Champs in Wisconsin.
Have a great week Team Dauber.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Thur the 12th 1st day of the National Amateur Cocker Champs in Wisconsin.
> Have a great week Team Dauber.



Hi On, Team Dauber!


----------



## METRO1

Congrats to kevin and smoke.finished 4th series in first am.nationsls.unfortunately smoke trapped 5 straight birds in 3rd and 4th series,wet chukars .nothing smoke did wrong but wasn t called back to 5th and final.nice job to kevin and smoke.


----------



## dauber

Kevin and Smoke had a good go at it. I got to see my buddy Kevin a lot, Smoke was dog 50 and I had Murphy at 51. 

Murphy and I made it through 4 series as well. We had a couple of tough honors one in 3rd one in 4th both where birds dropped after being blown in high winds right in front as Murph was running top speed. The one in 3rd was when Smoke trapped one and 2 others flew that guns dropped, one went right off Smokes course and one left right in front of Murph. He stopped, judge told me bring him in and he did, then when they didn’t send Smoke on that one they had Murphy get it. In 4th had similar thing again with Murph out pretty far on a downwind rolling at top speed when the bird was shot and blew back slowly towards him and I had to yell hup loudly to stop him right before the bird. Otherwise Murphy was outstanding. Had some nice tracks, long finds buttoned his 6 retrieves, had numerous leaping flushes never went more that 3 flags and left me with a big smile after each run. 
Karen and Zac had some excitement too but only made it to second contact in second series where he took a good runner up course close to next plant and after guns missed he decided to go flush the next one before coming back in. 
Zac is going into at least trial semi-retirement and full time hunter now. We may pull him out here or there for a special occasion after the Sudbury spring trial. 
Here are a few pictures of the great cover used at this National. 

This is heavy switch waist to shoulder high used for 1st and 2nd. 









This is the cover used for 3rd and 4th. Broken covers of grasses, brushy patches and little wooded strips. 









5th series was run down a wooded brushy dry ditch. I think 6 woodcock were moved on first round.


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## CDN_Cocker

Well we had a huge ice storm just a few days ago and today its 15C! What a crazy rollercoaster. Double digits for at least the next week. We're soaking up the sun and cracking open a new seresto.
















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## Hal Standish

CDN_Cocker said:


> Well we had a huge ice storm just a few days ago and today its 15C! What a crazy rollercoaster. Double digits for at least the next week. We're soaking up the sun and cracking open a new seresto.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


Same weather here in S.Mich. Good place assembly.


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## CDN_Cocker

Hal Standish said:


> Same weather here in S.Mich. Good place assembly.


Thanks. That one is up off the ground and then I have a few that are standard 4" high

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## gundogguy

Mike Wallace has an outstanding springer breeding for those that might be thinking about a springer pup.

https://essft.com/litter-announceme...er-x-afc-cutaways-up-north-all-the-time-elsa/


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## gundogguy

I been ask many times "How do pick names for dogs?" 
This is how it is done by us.
FC AFC CFC Salmy's Lengend Of Zorro aka Zeta
This clip should explain


----------



## gundogguy

Five years ago this lil lass began her quest of field trial fame and glory. after climbing the mountain and and earning 3 titles FC AFC CFC Salmy's Legend of Zorro, Zeta the Warrior Princess, is returning to training camp for another go. She is headed back to Salmy's Kennel and Michael Wallace to to see if she has any thing left in the tank. The young up and coming dogs better be on their "A" game.


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Five years ago this lil lass began her quest of field trial fame and glory. after climbing the mountain and and earning 3 titles FC AFC CFC Salmy's Legend of Zorro, Zeta the Warrior Princess, is returning to training camp for another go. She is headed back to Salmy's Kennel and Michael Wallace to to see if she has any thing left in the tank. The young up and coming dogs better be on their "A" game.
> View attachment 325920



Good Luck on the fall campaign trail to Zeta and you, once again, Hal. The Warrior Princess will be a formidable competitor as she always is. Please give us the play-by-play as the trial season rolls along.


----------



## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Good Luck on the fall campaign trail to Zeta and you, once again, Hal. The Warrior Princess will be a formidable competitor as she always is. Please give us the play-by-play as the trial season rolls along.


Nice to hear from you Natty. Not to fret The spaniel corner will be up to date with the "happenings" from the circuit.
What with the pitfalls of campaigning a lady dog we do have a concern about her coming in, what with change of living conditions and schedule. How ever we will deal with that as needed.
Here is a pic of her latest living condition. Schedule with become a wee bit more structured.


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## Jared712

Looking forward to hearing how she does.

I bet she's got plenty left in her or you wouldnt be bringing her back out. Give 'em Hell Zeta!


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## gundogguy

Jared712 said:


> Looking forward to hearing how she does.
> 
> I bet she's got plenty left in her or you wouldnt be bringing her back out. Give 'em Hell Zeta!


7 days in conditioning and Zeta is looking sharp. Oh Oh as will happen when working with the ladies, change in scenery and schedule, Zeta comes in season yesterday, temporary set back,press on regardless.


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## Jared712

Good get it out of her system now. Then show them how done!


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## dauber

Good luck this season Zeta!

We are hitting a couple trials early then hunting the rest of the fall. Mrs. Dauber is going to run Murphy this fall and young Tappy is going to take a crack at a few amateur stakes. We will be done early October this year, more time to hunt.


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## gundogguy

A little ESS Trial update. Sinking Valley Penn
The Warrior Princess made it to the 3rd,in her first trial in well over year. Had a very nice nice trial going by a number of reports received however she over heated on a long down field retrieve in the 3rd and Wallace wisely pick her up, after all she is with child. 
Zeta has 3 possible 4 more trials to run before this prego situation takes her out of the loop
do to her impending whelp and nursing duties take center stage. 
Hope yous spanielers are making plans to do the job this fall in the covers.


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## olddouble

Hello TSC.
Back in November I introduced you to my first Spaniel and promised to keep you updated. Well, I haven't done a very good job of that. Here is Jenny last November.










We have been training hard since then and thankfully I have found a good group of like minded people to help guide me in her training. Last weekend was her first hunt and I couldn't be more pleased with her performance. If I knew Spaniels were this much fun I would have switched a long time ago. Here is Jenny with her first grouse.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Very Sharp looking Springer, Hal!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all on the Spaniel Corner ll


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## gundogguy

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Very Sharp looking Springer, Hal!
> 
> MERRY CHRISTMAS to all on the Spaniel Corner ll


Ah! Natty, Cliff's package of work was even sharper than his looks. His work was awe inspiring in the field!


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## CDN_Cocker

Merry Christmas from Jake and I in Canada!
















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## gundogguy

Cass, I can hear Jake toe nails digging into that hardwood floor as he skates across the room!


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## michgundog

Picture from 2 weekends ago of 10 year old Finn still getting the job done. Didn’t realize until after , but the bird fell out of frame... lol










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## NATTY BUMPO

michgundog said:


> Picture from 2 weekends ago of 10 year old Finn still getting the job done. Didn’t realize until after , but the bird fell out of frame... lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Still LUV this pic of Fin and gear anyways, Mike. Thanks for keeping it real.


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## michgundog

Our winter project.... at 10 weeks the little guy is coming along

















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## CDN_Cocker

gundogguy said:


> Cass, I can hear Jake toe nails digging into that hardwood floor as he skates across the room!


You're not wrong Hal.... lol

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----------



## CDN_Cocker

michgundog said:


> Picture from 2 weekends ago of 10 year old Finn still getting the job done. Didn’t realize until after , but the bird fell out of frame... lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Good boy

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## CDN_Cocker

This morning marked the end of grouse season for 2018. Went to a small cover with my daughter. December has been brutal and the dog and I have hunted hard the last 3 days with very few flushes. He did flush one this morning but it didn't give a shot opportunity but it was a nice way to end the season. We'll probably do a preserve hunt or 2 over the next month or so but this marks the end of what we wait all year for. It was a tough season this year, hopefully 2019 sees better numbers.









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## olddouble

michgundog said:


> Jenny is a great little girl. Glad I was along for the ride on that big rooster last Saturday... see you soon Olddouble...


Thanks. We tried one last time on the the last day of the season but only managed to flush a single hen. Had a great season and looking forward to many more with her.


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## olddouble

michgundog said:


> Jenny is a great little girl. Glad I was along for the ride on that big rooster last Saturday... see you soon Olddouble...


Thanks Mike. Got out on the last day of the season for one more try but she only flushed a single hen. Looking forward to seeing your new pup come along.


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## CDN_Cocker

Jake aka black dog turned 6 years old yesterday! It's been a wild ride and I can't believe so much time has went by already. He's taught me a lot about bird dogs and training and taught me even more about what I still don't know lol. He's a nut job, but he's my nut job. Not quite as easy to hold as he was 6 years ago but he still melts when I try. I really like the second picture as well... my wife was trying to get him to look at the camera but he had the spaniel stare going on.
















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## michgundog

Great Lakes American Water Spaniel hunt test premium for 2019. 

http://greatlakesawsc.org/


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----------



## gundogguy

Hall of Fame Trial in Tennessee
Open AA placements Another Open stake and Amateur to be run this weekend










1st Todd Agnew with DJ
2nd Mike Wallace with Nellie
3rd Mike Wallace with Dozer 
4th Clay Earl with Jaxx


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## NATTY BUMPO

gundogguy said:


> Hall of Fame Trial in Tennessee
> Open AA placements Another Open stake and Amateur to be run this weekend
> View attachment 372243
> 
> 
> 
> Hal,
> 
> Noticed the choke tubes in that gun's OU. What chokes do most guns use @ ESS trials?? And don't the judges prefer those pheasants be dropped "out there" ? THKS.
> 
> NB
Click to expand...


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## gundogguy

[URL='http://lighthousekennels.com/']Class of 2019 Hall of Fame:[/URL]
*NFC FC CFC CAFC Salmy’s Master Piece “Cliff” owner Frank Wiseman*
Handle by Mike Wallace Salmy's Kennel

FC AFC CFC Salmy's Legend Of Zorro Zeta
Sends her best to Frank Wiseman and Michael Wallace of Salmy' Kennel
Cliff the "Big Red Dog" has made HOF status like his sire Zorro.
HOF Cliff is Zeta's sire and HOF Zorro is her grandsire. With Zeta's background it is no wonder she tore the circuit up when she was on the ground


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## michgundog

michgundog said:


> Great Lakes American Water Spaniel hunt test premium for 2019.
> 
> http://greatlakesawsc.org/
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Bump 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## gundogguy

The following video was produce in 1994. It is the best video production I have ever seen concerning what a Springer Spaniel is all about trialing or training.


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## gundogguy

Spanielers watching that video brought back so many fond memories of earlier days in sport of spanieling for me! 
Seeing a young robust Art Rodger. HOF Jim Lightfoot, Mike Elsasser and Russ VerCamp.
Russ and I met in Lebanon Ohio at Turtlecreek Kennels, Own by Jack & Marilyn Watkins.
we were there acquiring our first spaniels. Russ picking up his Abbie pup and me picking up my Banner dog.
a number of the folks in that video are still active in the sport. and other have now departed.
Great memories of the activity that all just loved to be a part of.

Hal


----------



## JimP

Time for a bit of trimming.
2' Springer in 3' of snow...

Edited to add: Then the first thing he does is want to hop on the bed, had to close the doors until he thaws, can't brush out, gotta pinch them off.
Hair dryer helped a little.


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## NATTY BUMPO

JAM said:


> Meet Winterwind Hie Time "Ticktock". He's 19 mos. old and took 2nd place in TVESSC's FT Puppy Stake last Sunday. There were 14 starters in the stake.
> View attachment 579161


Big Congrats, Jam. Nice win. He's a looker too, plus a nice soft mouth!!


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## JAM

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Big Congrats, Jam. Nice win. He's a looker too, plus a nice soft mouth!!


TY, NB!


----------



## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Meet Winterwind Hie Time "Ticktock". He's 19 mos. old and took 2nd place in TVESSC's FT Puppy Stake last Sunday. There were 14 starters in the stake.
> View attachment 579161


Good job! Missy Jam, You have really up your standards. Keep rolling! Puppy stakes can be very interesting Pros and Amateurs mixing it up. A little success can be a real motivator.

Hal


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## METRO1

Great day sat with some friends.45 flushes.about 15 were grouse.we killed 5 man limit of woodcock.grouse seem to know the best time to bust and thats when your trying to get over deadfall.lol.


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## gundogguy

Fabulous Gary that must have been a ball I never hunted with 5 but have done many 3 man cover shoots. and with some folks you know. I recall 6 times having 3 man limits on WC, course that was back in the day when the bag was 5 birds per gun. To my way of thinking the State penalized you by 2 birds per gun because you have good dogs and know how to shoot..such a penalty.
Congratulates on living the Sporting life.

Hal


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## METRO1

Son came up today.me marsha and nick limited out.hal wish it was 5 still because watching dog work so hard and just letting fly off is tough for me to do.35 flushed today.2 fun days.missed all the dam grouse .seems they know exactly when to flush,and thats when your leg is half over a deadfall.


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## METRO1

2 hours today.20 flushes.10 grouse 10 woodcock.nick finally tagged nice grey faze grouse.great long weekend of hunting.tons of birds and shooting.stinks to be headed home and back to work


----------



## METRO1

Thanks hal.love everything about grouse woodcock hunting
Being friends ,family.the excersize,the fall smell in air,colors,the work out,the dog work and the flushes.
Don t like sticks in eyes though


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## gundogguy

Mickie ready to rumble. Puppy Stakes in November, on the East Coast circuit. Open all age in the Spring, nation wide.

Hal


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## JAM

Ticktock's 2nd 2nd Place! Southern Wisconsin Sporting Spaniel Club Puppy Stake 11-8-20


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## gundogguy

JAM said:


> Ticktock's 2nd 2nd Place! Southern Wisconsin Sporting Spaniel Club Puppy Stake 11-8-20
> View attachment 600685


On a roll. Keep it going.

Hal


----------



## gundogguy

An oldie but a goodie Quesa and I having a lil training session. Quesa has been gone now a couple of years Not a Spaniel I was real fond of but we still gave her every opportunity to develop.


----------



## gundogguy

A tip of the Hat and a way to Go shout out to Bryan Miller and his FBEC Bailey whose is ripping up the the Carolina Cocker Trial scene, In back to back weekends Bailey Has been awarded a 1st, two 2nds, and a third. along with numerous Guns awards.
I first met Bryan some 30 yrs ago when he owned a FB Golden that I steadied to wing and shot for him. later on he purchased started FB Springer from Nancy and I.
Not Positive but I believe Bryan and his wife live in Harbor Springs.

way to Go Bry!

Hal


----------



## gundogguy

Our lil Micky scratched the pad yesterday at the Central Virginia trial in the puppy stake.
1st trial 1st Win











Hal


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## gundogguy

Traveling from Virginia to Pennsylvania. The Mickster wins her 2nd Blue. Back to back puppie stakes.
Possible 3 may be 4 more trials this spring. She has great chauffeur in that Michael Wallace. And he is not to bad a dog trainer and breeder as well


----------



## jasperdog

Bryan Miller and his ECS Bailey are still getting after it.

They won the Amateur in PA on Saturday and took 3rd in the Open on Sunday.

They are from Boyne City....


----------



## gundogguy

jasperdog said:


> Bryan Miller and his ECS Bailey are still getting after it.
> 
> They won the Amateur in PA on Saturday and took 3rd in the Open on Sunday.
> 
> They are from Boyne City....


Right on Jasperdog, Brian and Bailey have had the hot hand the last month or so...In his dog career, Brian has own and hunted a Field Bred Golden a Field Bred Springer and now 2 fbecs he has done very well for himself..

Hal


----------



## gundogguy

gundogguy said:


> Traveling from Virginia to Pennsylvania. The Mickster wins her 2nd Blue. Back to back puppie stakes.
> Possible 3 may be 4 more trials this spring. She has great chauffeur in that Michael Wallace. And he is not to bad a dog trainer and breeder as well


Lil Mickie dog picks up her 3rd win of this Spring. Valley Forge Penn. Puppie Stake was run on chukars, pigeons must be in short supply. During her run she also blew out a pheasant along with chuckars.. To receive the win she had to be very clean on the course. At the pace this Mickie girl is going I'm going to need to add a room for the bling she accumulating at such a young age.

Hal


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## gundogguy

__ https://www.facebook.com/Huntthemountain/posts/1791623084352080


Mickie girl the dog on the left.




__ https://www.facebook.com/Huntthemountain/posts/1791297891051266



Mickie takes the Blue again in the Puppie stake her 4th win of this spring

Hal


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## JAM

Tilden Valley English Springer Spaniel Club is pleased to invite guests to our AKC Spaniel Hunt Tests on June 19 & 20, 2021. The tests will be held at Blackbrier Kennels, Beaverton, Michigan.

The Hunt Tests are open to all AKC eligible flushing breeds.

Following Saturday, June 19, 2021 Hunt Test, Tilden Valley will also be offering 2 AKC Water Tests. 1 for Cockers and English Cockers and another for English Springer Spaniels.

Please visit huntsecretary.com for premiums and to enter the tests.

Hope to see you there!


----------



## METRO1

Excited to start aspens training.she a beauty or what.


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## gundogguy

Mickie picks up another placement Altoona PA. Under terrible conditions Cold, snowy windy day, just brutal just like here in Michigan today...Now has 10 points needs a win to finish her title..


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Mickie picks up another placement Altoona PA. Under terrible conditions Cold, snowy windy day, just brutal just like here in Michigan today...Now has 10 points needs a win to finish her title..


Congrats!!! Yes, it looked miserable there. 


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----------



## michgundog

AKC Field Bred English Springer Spaniels.


Both parents are excellent hunters and companions. Great with kids. Pups were born Jan 25. Message for more info. or text 248-842-8555. Located in midMich near I75 and US23. Update*One*male pup available. Liver and white. serious inquiries only! Call or text asap. Pup is a strong retriever! Our...




www.michigan-sportsman.com






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View attachment 821545


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## gundogguy

Being Breed today at Salmy kennel Under the watchful eye of Mike Wallace 1st tye today!! Babies hitting the bricks in 63 days

FC Rommel X FC Adara


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Being Breed today at Salmy kennel Under the watchful eye of Mike Wallace 1st tye today!! Babies hitting the bricks in 63 days
> 
> FC Rommel X FC Adara
> View attachment 822093
> 
> View attachment 822092


Are you getting another Hal? 


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## gundogguy

michgundog said:


> Are you getting another Hal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


No Sir, We will finish Mickie up and she be our last. The goal is Open and Amateur title.


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> No Sir, We will finish Mickie up and she be our last. The goal is Open and Amateur title.


She’s doing great! 


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## michgundog

The latest in doodle dogs!!! A springerdoodle!! What is the purpose of this pairing? 


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## birdhntr

michgundog said:


> The latest in doodle dogs!!! A springerdoodle!! What is the purpose of this pairing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Allergies?


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## gundogguy

birdhntr said:


> Allergies?


I would say Money, not allergies. breeders of designer dogs have very little invested in training so once they hook a pet buyer the breeder is out of the picture,,Buyer be ware.

Hal


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> I would say Money, not allergies. breeders of designer dogs have very little invested in training so once they hook a pet buyer the breeder is out of the picture,,Buyer be ware.
> 
> Hal


Agree!!!! 


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## gundogguy

Sad news to report the Spaniel nation lost a great man this week. Russell Smith from Ohio.
I met Russ at the first trial I ever attend at Bill Lanes English estate in Oxford Michigan 1976.
Russ was an outgoing people person and never forgot some ones name or dog you might have had when you trialed.
A fierce competitor who supported our trial game with multiple entrys each weekend in both the Open and the Amateur stakes. Some breed historian some day publish the number of dogs this man trained for himself and made champion 40, 50 maybe more. A good man who love the dogs the trial game and the spaniel breed he will be missed by many many people across the United States. RIP my friend!


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Sad news to report the Spaniel nation lost a great man this week. Russell Smith from Ohio.
> I met Russ at the first trial I ever attend at Bill Lanes English estate in Oxford Michigan 1976.
> Russ was an outgoing people person and never forgot some ones name or dog you might have had when you trialed.
> A fierce competitor who supported our trial game with multiple entrys each weekend in both the Open and the Amateur stakes. Some breed historian some day publish the number of dogs this man trained for himself and made champion 40, 50 maybe more. A good man who love the dogs the trial game and the spaniel breed he will be missed by many many people across the United States. RIP my friend!
> View attachment 835698


Agree 100%!! Defiantly a guy who always brought his A game!! RIP Russ Smith


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## gundogguy

Well Tilden Valley trial U.P. is well in books Mickie crashed and burn on an honor. Oh well she has a few more thing to learn.
Now then at Southern Tier trail NY she blaze to third nice to have those though she does need the placement. she has the required placements and corresponding points She needs to win or a 1st place a trial to make Champion well maybe this week-end will be Her time to shine under the glare of Blue lights

Hal


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## Outdoor Gal

Our family added a nice little field bred springer a year and a half ago. We have quite the collection with a GSP, lab, Ryman type setter and now a springer. Lol. 

She's my boy's dog. Last weekend she had here first exposure to wild birds and did great! Wish I could have held up my end but missed the one woodcock I did see that she put up. She sure is a fun little dog. The kid has worked a lot with her and they're turning into a great little team.


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## NATTY BUMPO

Great looking "Boy and His Spaniel Picture"   Good Luck the rest of the season.......


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## gundogguy

Outdoor Gal said:


> Our family added a nice little field bred springer a year and a half ago. We have quite the collection with a GSP, lab, Ryman type setter and now a springer. Lol.
> 
> She's my boy's dog. Last weekend she had here first exposure to wild birds and did great! Wish I could have held up my end but missed the one woodcock I did see that she put up. She sure is a fun little dog. The kid has worked a lot with her and they're turning into a great little team.
> 
> View attachment 856862


Good for you young man! I can never forget My first field bred Springer. A Black and white for sure , Turtlecreek Banner.
Upland birds Ducks and Geese Banner could do it all I have so many fond memories of that Dog and I well it brings a tear to these ole eyes Protect Him, train him, serve Him!

hal


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## METRO1

Well my kids and I made it up for first grouse hunt of year with pup. We had a blast. Flushed 42 birds in like six hours and for the first time ever the majority were grouse. Very tough shooting with ferns chest high and all the leave. Very small shooting window but we managed to Kill 8.
3 grouse
5 woodcock.


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## gundogguy

October 8 th Long Island ESS field trial club, New York. 40 dog entry. Mike Wallace picks up another placement with our Mickie girl.
As Mike mention she saved his bacon in tough trial with Mickie picking up this placement. She is showing fine consistency week to week just needs a 1st place to finish her Championship. Still nice to beat out 35 other dogs, including the other 5 Champs on his truck. The difference in our game is that of frog hairs, she will get it done.

Hal


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## METRO1

gundogguy said:


> October 8 th Long Island ESS field trial club, New York. 40 dog entry. Mike Wallace picks up another placement with our Mickie girl.
> As Mike mention she saved his bacon in tough trial with Mickie picking up this placement. She is showing fine consistency week to week just needs a 1st place to finish her Championship. Still nice to beat out 35 other dogs, including the other 5 Champs on his truck. The difference in our game is that of frog hairs, she will get it done.
> 
> Hal


Congrats


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## gundogguy

For those that are not sure what a Springer or Cocker looks like hunting or trialing properly, check this out









Darrin | Facebook


0 views, 3 likes, 2 loves, 0 comments, 0 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Darrin Huculak:




www.facebook.com





Hal


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## gundogguy

2022 ESS National Open Championship (NOC) - English Springer Spaniel Field Trials


When: November 17, 2022 – November 21, 2022 all-day Where: Austin, MN 55912, USA




essft.com





Hal


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## michgundog

Good luck Hal to you and Nancy! 


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## gundogguy

3rd series of the NOC not quite completed and as I hear from Mike Wallace it has been a tough trial some 45 dogs have "Crashed and Burned" as we say in the game. All sorts of reason for it dogs been putting the wrong foot forward the usual suspects passed birds failed honors and or failed retrieves. sloppy marks where the handlers have picked their dogs up. But that is what trialing at this level is all about. as I understand Salmy Kennel still has a dog in contention. We will have a nice visit with Mike after it is all over. No since doing it until then. He has a enough to think about currently....
As a side note the new trial season 2023 begins in January. California, Texas and Oklahoma are first up Field Trialing is really about pressing on regardless.

Hal


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## gundogguy

Mickie wins Keystone to makes her Field Championship in the OPEN. In the less than a year of campaigning. Mike Wallace running FC Mickie and FC Morgan went 1st and 2nd Morgan may very well be her new beau in the upcoming nuptials .This win qualifies them both for the 2023 National Champs.








Micky is the








liver and white Morgan is the Black and white. Should be B/W and L/W pups in this litter. Mike Wallace at Salmy Kennel will handle all details of this breeding and welping

Hal


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## michgundog

gundogguy said:


> Mickie wins Keystone to makes her Field Championship in the OPEN. In the less than a year of campaigning. Mike Wallace running FC Mickie and FC Morgan went 1st and 2nd Morgan may very well be her new beau in the upcoming nuptials .This win qualifies them both for the 2023 National Champs.
> 
> View attachment 871987
> Micky is the
> View attachment 871990
> 
> liver and white Morgan is the Black and white. Should be B/W and L/W pups in this litter. Mike Wallace at Salmy Kennel will handle all details of this breeding and welping
> 
> Hal


Congrats! 


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## NATTY BUMPO

BIG CONGRATS to Mickie, Hal and Team Salmy for her championship win. She won it rather quickly IIRC. Hopefully, she will come home now for a well deserved vacation and Christmas goodies too.


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## JAM

gundogguy said:


> Mickie wins Keystone to makes her Field Championship in the OPEN. In the less than a year of campaigning. Mike Wallace running FC Mickie and FC Morgan went 1st and 2nd Morgan may very well be her new beau in the upcoming nuptials .This win qualifies them both for the 2023 National Champs.
> 
> View attachment 871987
> Micky is the
> View attachment 871990
> 
> liver and white Morgan is the Black and white. Should be B/W and L/W pups in this litter. Mike Wallace at Salmy Kennel will handle all details of this breeding and welping
> 
> Hal


Congrats! WTG!!


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## HalPhil

Thanks for the congrats. Due to a new desktop here at home my handle on this forum changed what with updating passwords and such.
HaLPhil is the new one forum name and thats OK We are now finally getting a little winter here in Southern Mich and tha's ok as well. See you you all at the Corner.

Hal aka gundogguy


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## HalPhil

Just got word from Mike Wallace that FC Mickie has been bred to FC Rommel. Nancy Jo will pay a visit in January and run Mickie in an Amateurs' stake. Mike will handle the whelping and puppie placements.

Hal


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