# Are we in steelhead hell?



## Rat Fink (Feb 20, 2001)

Here is some first hand knowledge for you guys about the so called slaughter grounds we know as the scum lines. I have worked on the charters in Frankfort the last 8 years and have been fishing there for the last 15. The heyday of the Scumline has been over for at least6-7 years from Arcadia north. There are still a few guys that venture out there but not many and when they do the fishing is usually marginal. A few steelhead and kings are caught but their numbers are heavily outweighed by Lakers. Due to the rapid warming of the surface waters once spring hits the scumlines are no longer forming like they used to. My first few years working as a mate we went out 12-18 miles for steelhead at least 6 times a summer. I HAVENT been back off shore in the last 3 years due to the poor fishing. I know some of the charters from Manistee and south still get out for some good off shore fishing but even their fishery is NOTHING compared to what it was even 5 years ago. The temp is not there and the fish are scattering everywhere in the water column. So please stop throwing around this idea that charters and big lake fishermen in the North half of lake MI are a major player because it just isnt so. Yes there are a few isolated big catches of steelhead and of course we welcome them but the all out slaughter of the scum lines is in the past for almost everyone I know. I would have to look at my catch reports from the last 5 years but if I remember correctly the majority of our steelhead have been incidentals during the month of september out in 200-450 fow. These fish are caught deep while fishing for 2 and 3 yr old kings. I admit that I am as guilty as anyone of going out and putting up sick numbers on steelhead many times in years past but like I stated before I havent been out there in 3 years and success was marginal in the past 7-8. I sure do wish the days of bringing in 18 steelhead would come back but I certainly have a different view of the fishery now because I have become a river fisherman more so than lake fisherman.


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## phlyphisher (Aug 15, 2001)

thousandcasts said:


> By the way, check out this harvest record from the Little Manistee weir...


It's really hard to depend on data like the weir numbers since fish run at times when the weir is not in operation. Just something to consider...


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## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Joe,

Steelhead is better than ever in my opinion. I have had years like 3 years ago when it was great, but the conditions were perfect.

I use to fish Tippy on opening day of deer season and I would be the only one fishing. Same at 6th street in December. There are more fishermen and they are finding out that steelhead are not that hard to hook.

I remember when if you landed 5 steelhead in a year of hard fishing, you were doing great. I landed my first in 1960.

Dick Swan has done a lot of good stuff for steelhead, but no one will listen to him anymore because he comes across so harsh. That is his fault. He has let his success go to his head and it is difficult to even talk to him. One can only listen. Even when he is right, people dont like him.

I dont hook as many fish as I use to hook because I fish areas where there are less people and for the most part less fish, but I enjoy it just as much. If I catch one steelhead a day it has been a success.

TC, thanks for taking an active role. We need more guys like you to carry on. I do believe that fishing is much better overall than it has ever been for some fish and I think the more we learn and the more science is applied the better it will get. The big job is keeping the politics out of the equation.

I think the pressure on the Big Manistee was extremely high in the 80's and that is why I started fishing the great lakes. Improvise and learn to catch them where it is more difficult to make a presentation.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

To truely gauge the quality of steelhead fishing either by harvest numbers, weir numbers, etc... each piece of the equation needs to be constant. As people have eluded to, there are no constants in steelhead fishing. With plants remaining consistent, weather and water are the big X factors. You can't necessarily put too much merit in weir numbers because as Joe said, any given years run doesn't show at the same time. Creel census isn't the end all be all for a variety of reasons. So with plants remaining the same, IMHO, it all comes down to the survival of fish before they leave for the big lake. Hot summers, extreme winters, low water, mean less fishing making it 1-2 years before leaving. Prime conditions in the fall lead to bigger fall runs and early spawners, meaning less fish on gravel during typical "peak". Poor fall conditions typically lead to less fall fish and more "peak" fish. But then if spring conditions are not prime the bulk of fish can come in when ever. Typically the Mo "peak" for gravel is the 2-3rd weeks of April, but depending on the conditions, "peak" has been mid May when there is no one there event to fish them. One of the days that I've seen the most fish on gravel was about 10 years ago with Tim Roller and I floated the PM for trout on Jun 12th and almost every redd had fish on it with only a few trout guys being out! 

There are an infinite number of factors that effect actuall return numbers of our fishery, along with an infinite number of factors with run timing and how it is spread out. I don't know how anyone can fairly assess that things have been sliding and it is because of the DNR.

3 years ago, you could do 20-30 fish on the Mo in a little more then half a day of winter fishing. 2 years ago, 6 fish was a good day and it was more common to hit 2. This fall, lot's of fish again. Boy that hatchery system must really be messed up for numbers to vary so greatly in a matter of a year each way.  

Again, just too simplistic of a view to think that the DNR is dropping the ball. I think it is the authors goal to regain some of his relevance due to the "shocking" title of the article, he must be working with Janet Jacksons publisist! Hmm, what should I call this article??? "The state of steelhead fishing"? Nah, who would read that? How about "Steelhead Hell", I bet that'll gettem.

Also, with a lack of degree, I fail to see how Swan knows more than our biologists, who not only have the acedemic side covered, but also the steelhead fishing side. If you ask me, Swan likes to be in the lime light and this article is an attempt to regain it.

Lot's of insinuations about "changes" in the hatchery program, please detail these changes, otherwise they are the one thing that remains constant.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

TSS Caddis said:


> Typically the Mo "peak" for gravel is the 2-3rd weeks of April, but depending on the conditions, "peak" has been mid May when there is no one there event to fish them. One of the days that I've seen the most fish on gravel was about 10 years ago with Tim Roller and I floated the PM for trout on Jun 12th and almost every redd had fish on it with only a few trout guys being out!


I've seen these late runs on the Betsie as well. I can remember a day in mid-May serveral years ago when the steelheads were passing by me going upstream in herds of fish (to call them schools would not paint the picture there were so many of them. It was one of my best days of fishing that river in the Crystal Mt. area. The water was just beginning to rise, but was still clear enough to see fish. I have no idea how many browns...nice browns of 15-20" and steelheads that I caught or lost, but it was impressive. It was one of those days when the fish seemed to decide en mass to commit suicide. I think I could have tossed an old red wig on a hook and the fish would hit it.

Yes, those late runs do exist and few anglers realize that and/or target them.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Milt, yep and in those years I betcha the majority of the steelhead fisherman would have said the spring was a bust and where were all the fish?

Everyone wants to blame the DNR, catch and keep, violators etc... but IMHO until the DNR can find a way to dictate the weather, die off of the sub-adults and return timing of adults IMO will be the major factor in the number of returning fish and the perception of the number of returning fish.

I remember a post on TSS a few years back where somone posted that he hiked way back on the White and upon reaching the river all the redds were empty, "snaggers had obviously been there" :lol: Um, that's a pretty big leap to make. Or, when the Rogue starts to slow in the winter you hear "people have kept all the fish because if they were there I'd be catching them", that's another big leap. And now, for the first time, I've heard the theory that the DNR is hosing up the fish at the hatchery and that is somehow hurting the run?

You can count on the sun rising every day, but you can't count on every year of steelheading being exactly the same as the last. Even if it was, where would the fun be in that?

I think Tonello and Rozich might want to start looking into controlling the weather so they can make everyone happy. Good reference material might be "The Year Without a SantaClaus." :lol: Maybe they can hire Mother Nature's son's the Heat Miser and his brother the Freeze Miser to control the weather?

If this is Hell, then maybe Swan should just move to Penn. and fish where steelhead are as common as suckers.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

> If this is Hell, then maybe Swan should just move to Penn. and fish where steelhead are as common as suckers.


Um, Red horse suckers are considered a "threatened species" and even so, I'd much rather tangle with suckers than those nuisance stream trout that seem to get in the way of a good drift. Suckers fight harder. Whit's probably trying to figure out how to reach through his computer and wring my neck right now! :lol: 

Let's just stop tip-toeing around the real problem and address it head on: Mark Tonello. Ever since Tonello joined the DNR, our steelhead runs have gone to hell in a hand basket. I mean, anytime you ask him a steelhead related question, his answer is, "Steelhead? Beats the heck out of me, those are those big silver fish that jump a lot, huh? Haven't the foggiest, I'm too busy doing stream trout shocking studies on Syphillis ditch! Oh, boy let me tell you, Hutch--I shocked an 8 inch rainbow that would...blah, blah, blah!" Maybe he should stop focusing on his "Stream Trout for Little People Like Me" stocking programs and actually pay attention to what's happening to our steelhead program! :lol: 

Note: Mark Tonello is highly respected on this site as well as by me, but he also has the extreme misfortune and curse of knowing who I am. The above was simply some good natured humor that, I know Mark would get a kick out of and he'll retaliate against me in all due time. In short, when it comes to our steelhead program, he knows his stuff and believe me, with guys like Rozich and Tonello and others, our fishery is in damn good hands and I'll back those guys up any day of the week when it comes to pointless and unsubstaniated bashing of their department. They are extremely appreciative of debates like this as it helps the department from becoming complacent. Constructive Feedback is welcomed by them and that feedback, both ways, has been a tremendous help to me when putting together an article or two.

Of all the factors involed here, the weather has got to play the most important part in this perception deal. Like I said earlier, the weather has sucked for the last five years if your a steelhead fisherman. SUCKED, I tell ya!

Save a sucker, kill a stream trout!


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## silversides (Aug 16, 2002)

just read your article in woods n' water on high water steel. good stuff.

redhorse suckers "threatened"? this seems very unlikely... just go down to rogue after all the steelhead leave and you can catch all the redhorse you want. gomer has a pic of one of our redhorse "takes" that ill try to dig up, it should give you an idea of the amount of redhorse available if one so desires to catch them.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

> redhorse suckers "threatened"? this seems very unlikely


Strange as it seems, it appears to be true. Rich O Neill (DNR fisheries biologist) brought that up in one of the Muskegon River fisheries meetings.

Save a native Sucker, kill a non indigenous stream trout!


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## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

Dick Swan, hmmmm  

Isn't this the same guy who back then in northern Michigan's "Heaven" days,
made lots of money taking clients out to the scum line where catching lots of SH was like shooting ducks in a barrel?

I was made a proposition to join in on a trip but backed out as this slaughter was not my idea of fishing. Limits, what are they? 5 fish for everyone on the boat even those who were working and not fishing. 

If he calls it hell, then he must be one of hell's deciples.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

I was surf fishing off White Lake today and think I found the reason for our declining fishery. Is it just me or are these salmon getting bigger? :lol:


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## phlyphisher (Aug 15, 2001)

Thanks silversides.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Joe......your W n' W article.......a good one!


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2000)

Dryfly,
I agree with you. 
If you read his article he is complaining because lake anglers used to be able to fish the scum line and catch 30 to 50 fish a day. Should any fishermen be able to expect those kind of catches on a daily basis to the point where they have every right to be upset if they don't? I don't believe so. Personally I don't believe ANYONE has the right to expect those kind of catch rates. It's great when it happens, but don't start bad mouthing the DNR when it doesn't happen.


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## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

I see the big Salmon that you are talking about,
but the bait that is pictured along with it, is that legal bait? :yikes:


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

David,
I believe the bait is legal; it's the presentation that is highly suspect.....:lol: :yikes: 

By the way, I just noticed that you have 2 photos on the site. Congrats! Now you need to figure out how to do it. I have some simple directions if you need them or do you plan to have your minnions do your photo insertion bidding for the rest of your days?..........:lol:


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

I'll tell ya what, Mr. Joe Boomgaard can put together some really good articles and I certainly look forward to seeing more out of him in the future! Nice job, buddy! 

It's really great to see different M-S members tapping into that creative side of them and putting stuff out in magazines or on the front page of this web site. Whit, Steinfishki, etc. Great Job, guys--keep it up. It's certainly refreshing to see NEW stuff from other writers and not the same re-hashed perspectives from the usual suspects and it gives these forums alot more credibility in the grand scheme of things. Many thanks to all of you for sharing your creative endeavours with us!


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

As I was walking out of the gas station yesterday, lo and behold there it was, Woods and Water News. With all this talk of phlyphisher's article I picked one up. I must echo what everyone else has stated and state that it was a very good article. It was also nice reading an article that didn't read like an advertisement.


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## phlyphisher (Aug 15, 2001)

Thanks for all of the nice comments about the article, guys. I really appreciate the feedback.


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