# What Wolves do BEST



## dfd189 (Jan 15, 2003)

Thanks for all those answers, Head. 

I don't know how the world rotates without your help.


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## SnowSledHead (Jan 24, 2003)

Last calf being born Thursday. I saw it today, so the sky isn't falling from the previous post's! But, tomorrow is another day


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## SnowSledHead (Jan 24, 2003)

The other not so lucky calves.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Yep, sometimes life is a bummer, even for calves. Sometimes for wolves shot by criminals too.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

There is alot of knowledge flowing around here.

No need to make rude commints towards each other.

If you don't agree with someone simply state your opinion.

That may be a future hunting or fishing partner your talking to.


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## Hap Jones (Jan 29, 2003)

Snowsledhead,

Any thoughts about changing husbandry practices on this farm? Calving up around buildings, etc.?

Hap


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

I have never considered my self an expert. I read these posts to learn. But just for your knowledge I'm not a want to be. I have lived seven years in the U.P.. I abandoned the television for a portion of that time so I would spend more times in the outdoors. I did this because the outdoors is my passion. I now live closer to Detroit because of economics. It was my decision, as it is others to live in urban settings. But in no way should geographical location mean you know more than I or vice versa. Now that I can't get out in the field as much as I would like and I would like to be out all the time, I spend my free time reading and learning so I am not ignorant on causes and effects. 

I normally make it a practice to only talk about the issue and not the person. To have good debate and learning experiences this is key. But I was offended and I think it's ridiculous that someone would be so ignorant. 

The DNR does not know why the moose population is not going as planned. They admit in the following article that they just don't know yet. http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12143_12185-30966--,00.html
They state that some of the reason moose die is because of brainworm, HUMANS, wolves, old age, and a few others.

I sympathize with the farmers who take losses. I think that some times relocation and even possible elimination may be in order if there are re-occuring events of loss in short period. But to say that a whole animal population should be wiped out is just wrong. I recall when a couple of farmers over by Iron Mountain were complaining of Mountain Lions. DNR denied that as a possibilty. I beleived they blamed it on bears, the coyotes, then wolves, until the problam was so bad and the evidence mounted that they finaly said it was true. These mountain lions were targeting a couple of farms. I think in that situation trapping or killing was called for or should have been. But to eliminate all of them across North America for your convience is dumb. You chose to live where you are, you do have to live with it by your choice, don't ruin it for the rest of the world. Selfish...selfish... see the big picture 

As part of the 95% who you claim know nothing, I would like you to know I choose to not live in an ignorant world. We are creatures who are smarter than any others on the planet....ACT LIKE IT


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

SnowSledHead...I see you choose not to complete your profile, as to where you live. I wonder if you live in the UP? Have you ever lived in the Detroit area? What do you or what did you do for a living? Care to answer?


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## RIP (Jun 4, 2002)

I'm still stuck on that first picture. Not saying it isn't a wolf kill

Seen lots of dead deer. Seems that canines have a preference 
for hind quarters. I know I do. Also seems like the other flank appears untouched. Almost as if it was feed on by an animal that wasn't able to role it. Also, don't wolves have a pretty distinct 
kill method? At least most of the time. Don't they usually bring em down by the rump and put the kill grip on the neck or throat.
Not that they live in a perfect world. All the deer I shoot aren't perfect HLL shots either. As far as tracks around the calf. I set around deer carcasses for yotes. I always have canine tracks all around the carcasses every night. I seldom catch a yote. They're weary. I suspect wolves are to. It might very well be a wolf kill. Then again, it might very well be that some farmers in the UP would be better suited to farming in southern Michigan. 

Wolves? yeah they're going to need to be controlled. The writing was on the wall. Still, its odd to me that many folks move to bear country and then feel that the only good bear is a dead bear. 

One things for sure though, wolves will need to be controlled. Any measure that was put in place by mother nature is most likely disrupted by mankind anywhere in a state as densely populated as Michigan. That includes the UP.


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## SnowSledHead (Jan 24, 2003)

I live between Watersmeet and Bruce Crossing. Part time, I am a rural carrier and a contract painter. Yes, I worked in Oakland County for a couple years because at the time there weren't any good paying jobs up here while I was married at the time. I sprayed (painted) machines (Heat treat/quench) before they were sold worldwide.
I did not say anybody was a "Joe Wannabe".
I just moved somebody elses comment to mine on how some people think they are experts, and this being mostly a "metro detroit" site. And I KNOW WHAT KILLED THIS CALF!!! I, And only I was there. 
I just posted a picture and now some think they have an idea what killed this calf. What is this, The "Kennedy, smoke in the bush" Theory?
I said earlier that not all of the calves brought down this year were from wolves, they are mostly Coyotes, but there was a struggle and a WOLF killed this calf. I am not an expert, and I have yet to find one. let me know when anyone does find one.
If some want to believe in their Disney theory of what happened knock yourself out!
Hap,
The cows won't stay near the barn. The herd is a large one, 300 head,and they are fenced, but they care to roam. The farmer has 2 other herds to contend with and does not live at this farm. With the stupid CWD scare and no detection of TB in any U.P. herd the U.P. farmers can't sell to Wisconsin or Minnesota so there aren't any buyers for these poor farmers to sell. So they are forced to sell them to the hot dog proccessors. Thank you State of Michigan, many thank's.


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## yoda (Jan 26, 2000)

I was going to stay out of this and for the most part will, But to come to Snowsledhead aid a bit, Wolves do and will Kill just for the fun of it, We have seen it in the Deer Yards here in the eastern U.P. , Granted the picture that SnowSledHead posted is not the typical wolf kill, where all you might find is the head after they have fed, doesn't mean it wasn't either..... He was there, He is the one that has seen the evidence left by the critter that killed the calf, Not us. Wolves DO Kill live stock, thats a proven fact...
And as far as moving to bear country and thinking that the only good bear is a dead bear is not good, I can except that, But what about the folks that have lived up here, and have since day 1.. The Wolf was brought to US, Not by our wishes, It was forced on us by the FEDS, the MDNR , and the population base of the lower penn. that thought it might be cute to head the the U.P. some day and maybe glimps one when they "Visit" for a week or 2 each year. I guess that the problem that I have and most of the people have in this area are, Since this predator is going to effect the people of the U.P. why where the people of the State as a whole aloud to vote on it (It would not have passed thats why) And I guess if "When" this predator was introduced, "If" the live stock issues would have been handled the right way.( It was common practice of the people heading the "Wolf project " to wait a week or two before investigating a complaint, for one reason or another, and when they showed up it was blamed on Coyotes, And this was told to farmers that "Seen" the animal that did the killing and wanted to do the "Right" thing, Let that happen once or twice and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out whats going to happen the next time the farmer see some big o'l critter killing one of his calfs whats going to happen) . So I guess in closeing this little book I wrote. In my opinion, inless you live up here full time, and listen to the Farmers, and see first hand what the Predator is doing to live stock, and to the deer population, You have no right to bad mouth the feeling that we have toward this animal.... As I've said in the past and will say again: I can't wait for someone's poor poodle to get snatched off their porch in the greater Detroit area and it's found out a wolf did it , It will happen trust me, Just look at the Coyote population in that area now The Wolfs right on there heels 
One last thing, I don't want people to think that I feel this predator should be wiped off the face of the earth, I just want them to know that If at all possible we should box up about a 100 of them and start at about Midland and start dropping them off 3 or 4 at a time right to the Ohio/ Mighigan state line THEN we'll see the PooP hit the fan


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

I think this subject has got a little out of hand. There is bad information floating around out there. I would like to just try to pull this all back together. It is an important subject. There are a lot of illegal shooting of the wolves going on right now and the DNR is offering rewards for information leading to the aprehension of the culprits.  

First, I don't think any one has said wolves don't kill cattle. They do and we all know it. Once again it usually is not on the scale that the general public perceives. 

2nd I think everyone agrees that wolves as with any animal can be an annoyance. There may be times to take some form of actions. The degree of the actions are debatable.

3rd Yoopers want to be their own state Just kidding I did a survey on it once and most did not because most understood that economicaly it would be disatorous.

Yoda, Your post got me curious and I found that your information was incorrect. I was wondering about Wisconson & Minnesota and how long they have had wolves and why a wolf wouldn't just cross over the line on the map? There were only 4 wovles introduced into the U.P. and it was in the 70's and all died year one. I read the artical as stating that all but a couple of wolves came from Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Ontario. They bred with the few remaining native wolves. 

Yoda, your statement in reguards to Yoopers vs. Trolls opions on the wolf was also incorect more Yoopers wanted it than Trolls. Here is a clip directly from the DNR: "However, by 1990, the majority of Michigan residents were ready for the gray wolf to return to their state. Survey results indicated that 64 percent of Upper Peninsula respondents and 57 percent of Lower Peninsula respondents supported wolf recovery." 

Here is the link for the full artical they spell out the whole history of Michigan Wolves and they also tell you what they hope the future is. http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/1,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12205-32569--CI,00.html#recovery

4) I am a Yooper. Lived there 7 years and I hope to move back soon. Some of you Yoopers would like to say I will always be a TROLL but not in my mind and heart. I spend more time there than anywhere!

As I stated in my other post, I am not an expert and I am here to learn. I think this is a worthy subject to continue to debate and talk about. But can't we pleeeaaase leave out all the negative personal comments and deal with the issues. The observations about the photo's were a valid one. Forensic science is interesting. But if someone actually saw the kill it is what it is.


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## wmduckman (Jan 25, 2003)

> One last thing, I don't want people to think that I feel this predator should be wiped off the face of the earth, I just want them to know that If at all possible we should box up about a 100 of them and start at about Midland and start dropping them off 3 or 4 at a time right to the Ohio/ Mighigan state line THEN we'll see the PooP hit the fan


Yoda I couldn't have said it better myself. Wolves have there place in the upper peninsula. In limited numbers like in the Seney
Swamp. But when they move to the farm areas and take from a man's livelyhood. It is time to thin out the wolf population in that area. And the premission shouldn't have to come from Oakland, Wayne, or Macomb counties. I wasn't born in the upper peninsula so I'm not a Yooper. But I respect the the people that were born and raised there. I have not met one person born and raised in the U.P. who want even one wolf in their part of the state. But I think keeping wolves to the unpopulated areas would be a compromise.


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## SnowSledHead (Jan 24, 2003)

Yoda,

Thank you for "our" direct concern as people of the U.P. over the over-population of the present wolf pack's. As you stated, and others about the growing pack's, all I can say is- finally the State can, and will control the wolf by any mean necessary. I thank you for coming to my aid. We are just plain frustraded and get defensive from people who don't have to deal with it every day. I just hope that others see and realize what we face. As for their little precious ankle biters,,,O' Wile E. Coyote will snuff them out faster than,,,well, you know what I mean.

Wildcatwick,
there are six (not a lot, but 6) confirmed kills of the wolf since November '02. I don't know the reasoning for the shootings, I try to fathom that maybe some were just mistaken as coyotes. Mr. Boehr had input that no matter what, it is a crime. And yes it would be nice to be the "Superior" State, the 51st.

My anger was placed at how fast others could say that something other than the wolf did this when they had no comprihension of the facts, but were quick to comment from "book knowledge". And my reply was to lash out and defend. I am, and others are working with the DNR, or the USDA/AMPHIS. The thing is that most of the farmers here are disgusted as to why the DNR will roll over to the common polititian. Most would rather take the hit to the herd than call the DNR due to them getting involved with politics. Mr. Boehr i hope you do see thru this and maybe you can help to change this "feeling" between the Dep't and the farmers. I don't know you, but with what i have seen in my three months here you are there to help anyone here. 

RIP,
trust me the rear hind quarter joints were free flowing from damage to the ripping of canines to the flesh. you an see it on the other side of the picture


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## wmduckman (Jan 25, 2003)

SnowSledHead,
check your P.M. box


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

You will not find me ripping groups or stero typing groups, in this particular thread that being a farmer with wolves taking down cattle. I can understand a farmer's problem. However, I will rip an individual who insists that something must be their way only, regardless of the law or compromise with others that have other beliefs, a middle ground must be formed with the benefit going to the natural resources of this state.

I believe some type of relief for certain problem animals (this particular topic is about wolves) normally pertains to just a few of the animals for the entire population. In that sense, I suspect there will be relief but unfortunately government has a tendency to move slow. Not because they want to be slow but they have to attempt to satisfy everyone, both sides of any issue.

But Yoda you have stated this in two different threads now,


> The Wolf was brought to US, Not by our wishes, It was forced on us by the FEDS, the MDNR


 that is false and you have been told that each of the two times (that I have seen)you have posted that false information. Your use of the word 'our' should by the word 'your' because you don't represent everyone.


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## Hap Jones (Jan 29, 2003)

Something that is missing in this discussion is the FEDERAL status of the wolf. How wolfs can be handled in MI is not entirely in the hands of the DNR. On April 1, 2003 the gray wolf was "downlisted" from a federally "endangered species" to a federally "threatened species". At the same time, the feds filed an "Intent to delist" the wolf. This changes how potential "problem" animals can be dealt with at the state level. However, to be delisted, the feds must be confident that states (MI, WI and MN) can meet population goals defined in their respective management plans. As long as folks continue to "take matters into their own hands" this confidence could be difficult to obtain.

Because of the down listing and potential future delisting, the DNR will have the option to change the state status for the wolf from "threatened". Wolfs could eventually be listed as a non-game or game species. But again, much of this depends on the ability to meet population goals under the management plan.

As it stands right now, the federal "Intent to delist" is for the Eastern Distinct Population Segment (this includes MI, MN, WI and several eastern states) only. One of the reasons why the western states are not included in the "Intent to delist" is becuase of the turmoil over wolfs in those states. Becuase of this turmoil, some of the western states have failed to file a managment plan for the gray wolf. As soon as the feds filed the "Intent to delist" there were several organizations which countered by threatening lawsuits. 

What I'm getting at here is that the wolf in Michigan is part of a much larger picture. Keep in mind that what happens with wolfs in someones backyard has far reaching implications and is not limited to a single person, calf or wolf. As far as the feds are concerned, the writing is on the wall, and in the "Federal Register".

If you want to become more educated about the Federal regulations governing wolves check out:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi

On this website, look under (37) Endangered and Threatened Wildlife.............


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## ishootdeer (Oct 27, 2001)

I agree WILDCATWICK!


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## SnowSledHead (Jan 24, 2003)

Nice pregnant female yote going through the herd, scoping out it's next victim. Kissed the back of my hand to make it stop. The hollow point took care of the rest.


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## SnowSledHead (Jan 24, 2003)

Just read an article in a Wisconsin paper that the Wisconsin DNR is taking a more aggressive wolf stance. They just trapped and killed 4 wolves. The fed's delisted them in April and Wisconsin did it in October 1999. The article went on to say that some of the wolves came back after they were re-located. The two counties were Burnett and Barrons in the NW part. I too hope Mi can start to cull the problem ones out.


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