# Self trainers, let's hear your story



## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Scott Berg said:


> I am not sure the basic premise makes sense here. By 1st generation I would take that to mean a field trial winning stud dog to a winning female. For starters, that is a really small percentage of litters. More importantly, I don't think that is the type of breeding hunters are generally buying. It's usually a son of winning dog bred to daughter of a winning dog but it's a generation removed which is a somewhat significant distinction.
> 
> You also simply can't lump all trial dogs together. There are a fair number of guys who compete who have a preference for fire breathing and in general wound-up dogs. However, there are also just as many or more people who compete who prefer a dog with a very composed mental make-up.
> 
> ...


Your comments here are all valid. I just have this image in my head of guys who take their dogs out maybe 12-30 days a year, do some basic yard work, but not with any consistency, and shoot enough birds to gun condition them initially. Guys like that generally aren't too into training, they just want a dog that stays in touch and increases their bird finding odds.

Again, the trial breedings I have seen (and perhaps I need to see more) don't strike me as "every man" dogs. But then again, their owners don't meet the criteria I just listed above either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Who among you has a 1st generation trial bred dog that you trained yourself? 

Some follow up questions to go with this...

1. At what age did you get the dog? 8 Weeks
2. Did the breeder give the dog any bird exposure or training before you got it? Yes, bird exposure, but no training
3. Did you need an e-collar to teach the dog to handle? I used an ecollar to reinforce what I had taught prior to the collar, as a matter of fact, I relied less on the ecollar than with any of my previous dogs, cause this dog was smarter at least it's first year. 
4. Have you ever trained dogs before? If so, what kind, for what purpose, and how many? Trained four of my own, helped quite a bit with one of my brothers. 
5. Have you ever worked with a trainer before? Yes, lots of them, like 4-6, but I enjoy learning from lots of people, that said, I do 99% of the training myself.
6. How many days a week do you train with your dog? 5 the first two years, after that, not much other than conditioning and reminders. Maybe 2 days a week when weather and schedules permit.
7. Do you compete with the dog or just hunt with it? Just RGS trials.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Your comments here are all valid. I just have this image in my head of guys who take their dogs out maybe 12-30 days a year, do some basic yard work, but not with any consistency, and shoot enough birds to gun condition them initially. Guys like that generally aren't too into training, they just want a dog that stays in touch and increases their bird finding odds.
> 
> Again, the trial breedings I have seen (and perhaps I need to see more) don't strike me as "every man" dogs. But then again, their owners don't meet the criteria I just listed above either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't get me wrong here. I agree with your basic premise that the person described above is a bad fit for a CH to CH or winner to winner breeding is likely not a good fit. I also realize that there are some people who absolutely insist that more dog is always the right dog. I had a Pointer breeder on the other board where I participate berating me because I suggested that really disciplined selection of the 1st generation would produce better prospective litters for hunters. In other words, from winning parents, selecting indivduals with the proper mental make-up and biddability breeding them would be a better fit for producing hunting dogs.

This is one of those topics that get pushed to extreme examples and then people takes sides. This discussion has great potential to dig into the concepts around trialing and how it relates to making hunting dogs but we have to avoid the extremes. IMO, the discussion / questions should be more along the lines of understanding what is to be gained and what type of effort is required which of course is the path you were on. I was just offering a tweak to the concept by suggesting there are many shades or gray here.

SRB


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Again, the trial breedings I have seen (and perhaps I need to see more) don't strike me as "every man" dogs._Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe your not a "every man". Ever think of that. :lol:


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Back woods said:


> Maybe your not a "every man". Ever think of that. :lol:


If you say so.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

You get out of anything what you put into, be it dogs, golf, or business.

Which reminds me of an old saying about golf and business, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

WestCoastHunter said:


> If you say so.


Just poking fun at ya.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

My $.03 is a guy who hunts 45+ days a year can handle and probably wants a so called trial dog I guy such as my dad who hunts 15-25 days a year who are just happy the dog comes back at the end of the day would be looking for a dog out of hunt test or NAVHDA breeding
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> My $.03 is a guy who hunts 45+ days a year can handle and probably wants a so called trial dog I guy such as my dad who hunts 15-25 days a year who are just happy the dog comes back at the end of the day would be looking for a dog out of hunt test or NAVHDA breeding
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why do you own german dogs then? @ least you upgraded to a trial bred lab this year.

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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> You get out of anything what you put into, be it dogs, golf, or business.


Are you sure about that??? I recently heard that if you had a successful business, that you didn't build it.....:evil:


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> Why do you own german dogs then? @ least you upgraded to a trial bred lab this year.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Ebbe is breed to the tilt and my next pointing dog will be higher powered then ben
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

N M Mechanical said:


> Ebbe is breed to the tilt and my next pointing dog will be higher powered then ben
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is probably easier to make a slow progression. I went from a close working soft Llew to Dexter. Needless to say I am not a self-trainer :lol:


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

kellyM87 said:


> It is probably easier to make a slow progression. I went from a close working soft Llew to Dexter. Needless to say I am not a self-trainer :lol:


He has seen the light Kelly, abs his name is Kennnnnnny

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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> He has seen the light Kelly, abs his name is Kennnnnnny
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


That is right KFC right off the nest
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

N M Mechanical said:


> That is right KFC right off the nest
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I must be missing something!? damn this blonde hair!


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

kellyM87 said:


> I must be missing something!? damn this blonde hair!


I'm a brunett and I can't follow this either. In fact, I talk with Fritz often and I don't understand much of what he talks about.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Your comments here are all valid. I just have this image in my head of guys who take their dogs out maybe 12-30 days a year, do some basic yard work, but not with any consistency, and shoot enough birds to gun condition them initially. Guys like that generally aren't too into training, they just want a dog that stays in touch and increases their bird finding odds.
> 
> Again, the trial breedings I have seen (and perhaps I need to see more) don't strike me as "every man" dogs. But then again, their owners don't meet the criteria I just listed above either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


maybe the people you describe who take their dogs out 12 times don't even look at this forum because it's not that big of a deal to them


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

chewy said:


> maybe the people you describe who take their dogs out 12 times don't even look at this forum because it's not that big of a deal to them


I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of those who read this forum fall somewhere between westcoasthunter's 12 to 30 days hunted per year. With the demands of job and family along with multiple species to hunt, not to mention life in general being in the field over 30 days to hunt birds may be a pretty large challenge for many. I know that many of you have been blessed to have found the means or ways to do much more and I salute you and the wisdom you bring to this forum because of it. The input and help provided to the 12 to 30 day guys because of the knowledge gathered by the time spent with dogs and in the field by those of you who are able to do so may be part of what makes the difference in a successful season to some.

Also I am sure some tune in just to be entertained by the "debates". 

Oh yeah then there is that internet thing where some may be playing a little "hide and seek" with the truth as to how many days are spent in the field.

Anyhow to those of you with the knowledge who try to help those of us in need "thanks".

Jim


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Bobby said:


> I'm a brunett and I can't follow this either. In fact, I talk with Fritz often and I don't understand much of what he talks about.


You too?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Haters Gonna Hate 

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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Steelheadfred said:


> Haters Gonna Hate
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


You over use that quote. No hate here just no comprehension. Maybe I'm too old to connect with you.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

Bobby said:


> You over use that quote. No hate here just no comprehension. Maybe I'm too old to connect with you.


And I'm too young?


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

N M Mechanical said:


> My $.03 is a guy who hunts 45+ days a year can handle and probably wants a so called trial dog I guy such as my dad who hunts 15-25 days a year who are just happy the dog comes back at the end of the day would be looking for a dog out of hunt test or NAVHDA breeding
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I slightly disagree and I know this is a slight grey area. I don't know about NAVHDA, but I've see hunt test dogs that would smoke the 45+days a year hunters. Some of these dogs have been 1st or 2nd gen out of FC's and some I imgaine are from pure HT to HT. I'm new to the hunt test game, but my limited experience is that some of the hunt test breedings have become very high end. Same with the Field Trial just the next level up. I've seen it and lived it, some dogs just outclass their handlers. It's up to the handler to learn to keep up or just accept a certain level of performance. That and hunting isn't Hunt testing or Trialing.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Socks I agree my point is I am out almost everyday of the season and I expect a lot more out of my dogs then my hunting partners that hunt under 20. A guy that hunts 45+ days a year will train a lot more with there dogs then a 12 day a year guy unless he is strictly a trial guy. I can handler a dog that has more horse power then the guy who trains 10 days a season and hunts another 20 and the dog just needs to be a great pet 335 days just my .03
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

N M Mechanical said:


> Socks I agree my point is I am out almost everyday of the season and I expect a lot more out of my dogs then my hunting partners that hunt under 20. A guy that hunts 45+ days a year will train a lot more with there dogs then a 12 day a year guy unless he is strictly a trial guy. I can handler a dog that has more horse power then the guy who trains 10 days a season and hunts another 20 and the dog just needs to be a great pet 335 days just my .03
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gotcha, and agree.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

kellyM87 said:


> I must be missing something!? damn this blonde hair!


It's not the blond hair it's the chemicals that made it blond that do the damage.:lol::lol:

Don't tell my wife I said that.:shhh::shhh:


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm with Brandy said:


> It's not the blond hair it's the chemicals that made it blond that do the damage.:lol::lol:
> 
> Don't tell my wife I said that.:shhh::shhh:


Im natural.... Mostly


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

kellyM87 said:


> Im natural.... Mostly


Mostly 

So you just do highlights. Just a few brain cells have been effected?:evilsmile:mischeif:

Back to topic at hand.

I think it is important for the purchaser to tell the breeder what the dog will be used for and what the goals for the dog will be. This will help the breeder make a better fit for both purchaser and pup. 

There are alot of guys that think you should just be able to put a dog on birds and it should know what to do. 
I have heard this many times.
"if it was bred right it don't need no trainin"

Thats great if it works but what are you going to do if it doesn't. Most of these guys have no clue how to train so the dog either runs wild or spends it's life in a kennel.

My dad is one of those.

I will never hunt with a dog he owns. Funny thing is he won't either because every time he takes one to SD he spends two days driving around looking for it.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Mostly
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Come on, people want to sell pups. No one (unless the breeding is super high caliber) is going to turn down someone wanting a pup from a litter, no matter what they want to do with it. ESPECIALLY in this economy. They are having enough trouble getting rid of them as is.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

kellyM87 said:


> Come on, people want to sell pups. No one (unless the breeding is super high caliber) is going to turn down someone wanting a pup from a litter, no matter what they want to do with it. ESPECIALLY in this economy. They are having enough trouble getting rid of them as is.


 
I am sure that is the case. I am just saying the way it should be. I do think that some onwers get more dog than they can handle given the owners desire and ability to train.

These are not owners that are going to pay $6000.00/year to have the breeder train the dog at their kennels either. But they are the ones that will complain about the dog.

I do think that any dog can be trained to quarter and work close. But I also believe that Joe average hunter may not have the knowhow to do it. Or they may not have the time or the desire to put that much work into a dog. They may not have the ability to steady the dog either. Now they have a big running dog that is flash pointing birds at best. 
Not everyone wants a big running dog. I have watched shoot to retrieve. All I will say is not my cup of tea. I will take a dog that quarters the field over that any day.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

kellyM87 said:


> Come on, people want to sell pups. No one (unless the breeding is super high caliber) is going to turn down someone wanting a pup from a litter, no matter what they want to do with it. ESPECIALLY in this economy. They are having enough trouble getting rid of them as is.


 I've turned 3 away on my current litter including a friend, at least he was. mac


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

kellyM87 said:


> Come on, people want to sell pups. No one (unless the breeding is super high caliber) is going to turn down someone wanting a pup from a litter, no matter what they want to do with it. ESPECIALLY in this economy. They are having enough trouble getting rid of them as is.



I've had one litter, could have sold 20 pups and turned people away who I felt were not a fit for the breeding.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> I've had one litter, could have sold 20 pups and turned people away who I felt were not a fit for the breeding.
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


apparently I was mistaken.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

kellyM87 said:


> apparently I was mistaken.


I don't think you were wrong Kelly. I just think the right litters will produce the right buyers and plenty of them. Unproven or backyard litters will not have the draw. 


RH


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

I'm with Brandy said:


> I am sure that is the case. I am just saying the way it should be. I do think that some onwers get more dog than they can handle given the owners desire and ability to train.
> 
> I agree with you about allot of owners being guilty of hitting the woods with a dog that lacks both training and experience due to the owner not doing his job. Probably more of, not doing his job, then lacking the know how, to do the job.
> 
> ...


 You may be able to train all dogs to quarter and work close. Why one would want to makes no sense to me , but given enough time and lessons you may take a bigger running dog and hack him in. I would think that your time would be better spent teaching him to handle his birds and handle from a distance, more of what a pointing dog is bred to do, then worry about him quartering and working close. 
If you are thinking strickly flushing dogs I would tend to agree with the quartering thoughts.

I think that the majority of the bird hunters running pointing dogs use them more as flushers then pointers. That is the main reason they worry about keeping the dogs close. It allows them to shoot at ALL mistakes. Bumped birds, rooted out, walked up, whatever. Those folks would really be better served with a flushing dog.
The point of hunting behind a pointing dog is to let the dog locate and point/hold the bird until the hunter can flush the bird. That type of dog has no need to quarter and stay close. By forcing him to do that not only will you reduce his ability to find birds you will eventually take the drive out of the animal. In the end neither side will be happy with the ways things go.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

crosswind said:


> You may be able to train all dogs to quarter and work close. Why one would want to makes no sense to me , but given enough time and lessons you may take a bigger running dog and hack him in. I would think that your time would be better spent teaching him to handle his birds and handle from a distance, more of what a pointing dog is bred to do, then worry about him quartering and working close.
> If you are thinking strickly flushing dogs I would tend to agree with the quartering thoughts.
> 
> I think that the majority of the bird hunters running pointing dogs use them more as flushers then pointers. That is the main reason they worry about keeping the dogs close. It allows them to shoot at ALL mistakes. Bumped birds, rooted out, walked up, whatever. Those folks would really be better served with a flushing dog.
> The point of hunting behind a pointing dog is to let the dog locate and point/hold the bird until the hunter can flush the bird. That type of dog has no need to quarter and stay close. By forcing him to do that not only will you reduce his ability to find birds you will eventually take the drive out of the animal. In the end neither side will be happy with the ways things go.


Amen...I believe that the best bird dogs are the ones with the least cluttered minds. All that handling bs does nothing but distract a dogs focus from the task of finding and pointing birds.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

crosswind said:


> You may be able to train all dogs to quarter and work close. Why one would want to makes no sense to me , but given enough time and lessons you may take a bigger running dog and hack him in. I would think that your time would be better spent teaching him to handle his birds and handle from a distance, more of what a pointing dog is bred to do, then worry about him quartering and working close.
> If you are thinking strickly flushing dogs I would tend to agree with the quartering thoughts.
> 
> I think that the majority of the bird hunters running pointing dogs use them more as flushers then pointers. That is the main reason they worry about keeping the dogs close. It allows them to shoot at ALL mistakes. Bumped birds, rooted out, walked up, whatever. Those folks would really be better served with a flushing dog.
> The point of hunting behind a pointing dog is to let the dog locate and point/hold the bird until the hunter can flush the bird. That type of dog has no need to quarter and stay close. By forcing him to do that not only will you reduce his ability to find birds you will eventually take the drive out of the animal. In the end neither side will be happy with the ways things go.


I agree with you on this. But it goes back to the owners know how and ability to train or time to train. I agree that for some keeping the dog in close is a bandaid to flash pointing.

I am not a big fan of running with a gun to one end of a field then back to the other like I saw at shoot to retrieve. It wasn't so bad for the 1 or 2 handlers that were allowed to use ATVs. Even if I ever had another pointing dog I would teach it to quarter. I believe there are pointing dog owners that feel that way but don't say much in open forums because they are chastised for wanting a pointing dog to quarter.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Jay Johnson said:


> Amen...I believe that the best bird dogs are the ones with the least cluttered minds. All that handling bs does nothing but distract a dogs focus from the task of finding and pointing birds.


I am not sure that quartering clutters a dogs mind. But I think I understand the point your trying to make.
If you do a proper job of teaching a dog to quarter then there shouldn't be any handling. Just like if you do a proper job of whoa breaking your pointer you should not have to be reminding it to whoa on a bird.
The bottom line is you like the way your dog works for you then you should do it. Just because someone else wants a close working pointer doesn't make them wrong. 
There are flushing dog owners on this forum that let their dogs be un steady and they don't teach quartering. Un-steady out of control dogs frustrate the hell out of me. I will try to make legitimate arguments to try and change their mind but at the end of the day it is their choice and I am not going to make them feel stupid for it.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

kellyM87 said:


> apparently I was mistaken.


I think you are right for the most part. There are breeders that just want to make a buck. But I think these breeders can be found as back yard breeders and as big name breeders. I think your right about the economy playing a role too.

Mike and Hellers see there dogs as more than just a hunting tool they care about their dogs and thus they care about the pups so they are selective about where the dogs end up. I don't think they are the rule unfortunately.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

I'm with Brandy said:


> I am not sure that quartering clutters a dogs mind. But I think I understand the point your trying to make.
> If you do a proper job of teaching a dog to quarter then there shouldn't be any handling. Just like if you do a proper job of whoa breaking your pointer you should not have to be reminding it to whoa on a bird.
> The bottom line is you like the way your dog works for you then you should do it. Just because someone else wants a close working pointer doesn't make them wrong.
> There are flushing dog owners on this forum that let their dogs be un steady and they don't teach quartering. Un-steady out of control dogs frustrate the hell out of me. I will try to make legitimate arguments to try and change their mind but at the end of the day it is their choice and I am not going to make them feel stupid for it.


Doug, especially with a bigger running pointing dog wouldn't you rather have the dog out seeking objectives? Not wasting time and energy working cover that is less likely to hold a bird? 


RH


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