# Mac's Outdoor Adventures



## Andy Drumm (Dec 23, 2008)

It says ":may waive:"

so who is reading what .. ?? 
There is no blanket waiver for this ..where does it say threat ?

I guess your right .. "you" can read it any way "you"want ..


LOL AND WHAT DOES THE PRESIDENTS SPEECH HAVE TO DO WITH A REGULATION THAT IS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS ??


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Perch321...you are entitled to your opinion, but please be advised, Michigan State Attorney General Mike Cox issued a determination a couple years ago stating commercial bear baiting on CFA land is prohibited. Naturally, it would include all guiding whether over bait or with dogs. 

Far as the U.S. Forest Service goes, to legally guide in any national forest it requires a Special Use Permit. There are areas of the country where the USFS has not enforced the Special Use Rules. Prior to August of 2004 the forest service supervisor had the right to waive Special Use Rules, but since then the act has been ammended requiring Special Use Rules be enforced. Eventually, the USFS will find themselves in a law suit over this issue and the rule will be enforced.

Regarding Michigan State Land Use Rules...the waiver language does not provide for the DNR to "waive" the requirement to anybody and everbody wanting to use state land to run a guiding business on, providing a blanket waiver. The waiver language requires it be made on a case-by-case consideration. 

Regarding section (X) of the state Land Use Rules relating to waiver conditions...oversight would be required of any guiding business operating on state land because there needs to be a process ensuring accurate income reporting takes place. If the DNR were to waive Special Use Rules for guiding business' there would be no record of who is making income off the state land...and no income tax accountability. Therefore DNR oversight Is required.


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## zelda (Dec 12, 2008)

What about the Elk hunts? They are operarted the same way as the guided bear hunts. You tell me all those elk are on private land. I bet the majority of those were killed using a guide.
I support Mac's. He really stressed shooting big bear. We used our own scale that wasn't wore out and when Mac guessed the weight of the bear in R group he was pretty darn close. 
Sounds like some people maybe jealous of what he has going on. The only people I talked to that bad mouthed Mac was the Dog hunters up there.


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## Andy Drumm (Dec 23, 2008)

THIS IS NOT LIMITED TO BEAR GUIDES .. IT HAS TO DO WITH ALL GUIDING OPERATIONS .. IT IS WAY DEEPER THAN DOG HUNTER VS. BAIT HUNTERS .. THIS IS OUR RESOURCES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ,THAT SOME ARE PROFITING FROM WITHOUT FOLLOWING THE LAW .. PERIOD .. HERE IS A LITTLE MORE ON COMMERCIAL PERMITTING 
[SIZE=-1]*How long has there been a permitting requirement for the use of state owned land?*
Since 1973 for uses of state lands, which were otherwise unlawful without a permit under the state land rules, currently known as the rules for the regulation of lands administered by the Department of Natural Resources. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*Why haven&#8217;t I been required to obtain a permit in the past for my event or commercial operation on state land?*
There has been a permit requirement, but until 2001, there was not a definition of commercial use/operations in the administrative rules. Since that time, the Department has been developing a procedure and fee schedule for commercial operations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*What is the commercial operations definition?*
Commercial operations means, &#8220;Any activity which involves the buying or selling of goods or services, or the exchange or attempt or offer to exchange goods or services for money, barter, or for anything of value.&#8221; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*Do all commercial operations and events on state land require a permit?*
Every commercial use and event will be evaluated for its impacts to state lands, natural resources and the use of state lands by other users. If the Department determines that the commercial operation or event will not require Department oversight and will have minimal impact on the resource or use by others, the permit requirement may be waived. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*What if my group or business already receives a permit to use state lands?*
You will need to apply under the new procedure and fee schedule beginning January 1, 2006 for commercial operations or events conducted after that date. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*Where do I apply for a permit?*
Usually you will apply to the local land management unit. For example, you would apply to the Gaylord Management Unit for a permit to use the state forest land in Antrim County. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*Will requests for the use of state land always be approved?*
No. In some cases, the Department&#8217;s review may indicate that the proposed use is too intensive, or interferes with too many other users, or will damage state land or other resources or a state facility. In some cases, the Department may approve a modified version of a proposed use. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*Will I need to apply for a use permit every year to conduct a commercial operation on state owned lands?*
Yes. Use permits will need to be renewed annually and this will require a new application annually. However, for some activities that will continue over one year and that may be more intensive in nature, a lease may be appropriate and the term may be longer than one year.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*When will the new permission to use state land procedure go into affect?*
Beginning January 1, 2006 the new procedure and fee schedule will apply for commercial uses and events on state lands. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*I own a business that conducts commercial operations on state lands and I employ four people. Do I need one use permit for my business or one for each employee?*
Each business conducting commercial operations will need one use permit. Employees working for this business are covered under one permit. If an employee also operates independently, they will need a separate permit for that business. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*What type of conditions will apply to my permit?*
Specific permit conditions will vary depending on the commercial operation or event. However hours of operation, alcohol limits, location, duration of event, number of participants, etc. may all be considered. Liability insurance and a performance bond will be standard requirements.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*Why do I have to pay to hold an event or commercial use of state land?*
If your business is a commercial operation, then according to statute, the Department of Natural Resources must charge an application, review, use and possibly a monitoring fee. The application, review and monitoring charges are to cover Department costs. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*How much will I be charged for a use permit?*
The permit fees are variable depending upon a number of factors including, impacts to the resource, facilities, duration of the event and number of participants. The fees are structured to charge more for intense uses or those with a longer duration. Lower fees are charged to less intense, shorter duration uses. Fees can vary between no fee required to more than $1,000 per year.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*How are the factors rated and applied to determine the permit fee?*
An impact assessment is completed in order to rate the impact of the proposed use. The assessment is based on a cumulative point scoring system designed to objectively rate the impact the proposed use will have on the resource and use of lands by others. The greater the impact, the higher the permit fee, which includes a use of land charge. Points are assessed in the following categories: [/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]
*Facility impact* &#8211; How will this activity impact local infrastructure such as toilet use, parking lots, boat ramp, utilities, etc.
*Resource impact* &#8211; How does this activity impact the natural, cultural, or historic resources that the DNR is obligated to protect and preserve?
*Use level* &#8211; Does this activity require exclusive use of the facility? If not, how much is needed? How much impact will there be on other users who utilize the same facility? Number of participants &#8211; How many people will be involved with the permitted activity over the course of the permit?
*Duration* &#8211; What is the intended length (one day, week, seasonal) of the activity?[/SIZE]
 [SIZE=-1]*What other factors are used to determine the permit fees?*
In addition to the impact and use assessment, there may be a need for extensive DNR staff review of the permit application or a need to monitor the event or use activity. The total fees range from $0 to over $1,000 and are related to the dynamics of the proposed use or activity and the results of the impact analysis. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*Where do the permit fees go?*
The fees remain with the land administering division and may be spent for permit review, maintenance, or monitoring and compliance at the location of the event or use being permitted. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*What is the penalty for conducting an event or commercial operation on state land without a use permit?*
Conducting an event or commercial operation on state land without a use permit is a violation of the Administrative Rules. The offense is a civil infraction, punishable by up to a $500.00 fine. Multiple offenses may result in higher fines and increased penalties. [/SIZE]


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## TQO (Oct 28, 2000)

Having operated an outfitting business for the last 10 years, I can shed a lot of light on this subject.

1. Outfitters, guides and anybody else that is using state property for commercial use is required to have a DNR Land Use permit. The permit is not expensive ($75 the last time I checked). What is expensive is the conditions of the permit. You must have insurance naming the State of Michigan as additional insured (I'm not sure any outfitter could insure the State). You also must have a rescue plan in effect in case of emergencies for each government agency that you would encounter (Counties, Townships, Villages, Cities). If I remember correctly, you also had to post a bond with the state. This was told to me in direct conversation with the head of DNR Law Enforcement in Newberry a few years ago.

2. Not only do guides and outfitters need a DNR LUP, any organized event of 20 people or more (I believe this is the number) must have a LUP. This includes all the poker runs that take place. I ran into this doing an ATV poker run. I had to have emergency plans in effect in 8 government units. At that point, it became an unorganized event and I had the riders break up into groups of less than 20.

3. Guides don't' shoot the bears (or deer). The clients do. I had a 67 year old man that shot a 75 pound bear because he said he may not ever get another permit. The bear was legal. I agree with whoever said that I would like to see all these 200 and 300 pound bears on an accurate scale. If you carried out the bear with less than 4 people, it was not a 250 - 300 lb bear. They are very hard to carry unless you have a cart or other means to carry them. Every hunter has his own trophy and they can shoot any legal animal with any legal weapon, whether guided or not.

4. My guides were inspected every year by the DNR. The DNR would show up and ride along with the guide while picking up hunters. We did have a bow holder screwed into a tree one time and the officer heard a hunter unloading his rifle after legal shooting hour. No tickets have ever been issued and the officers were very helpful. They never investigated a LUP and my company never had one, however, we starting hunting all private property the last few years.

I'm going to write a book one day on all the stories about our outfitting business. It is closed now. When I started outfitting, there were 2 bear guides in Woods and Water News including me. That was in 1998. In 2008, there were 34.

Don't be afraid of outfitters. Some are very good. If you want to know actual kill rates, ask the outfitter how many hunters he had last year for all species. After he tells you, ask him for every name and phone number. That way, you can figure out your own success rates and satisfaction rates. If he can't supply you with every name and number, find another outfitter.

I'm more interested in outfitters having to provide proof of insurance. The $75 that the state collects for a LUP is nothing. A hunter falling out of a tree or a boat can be a large burden on the hunter if the outfittter is not insured. Most of the outfitters if not all, are using their vehicles to transport hunters without commercial vehicle insurance. Most commercial policies are $1,000,000 coverage. A hunter will need that if injured in the outfitters vehicle.

I have talked to people that have hunted with Mac and heard both good and bad, just as you will about my outfitting business. Decide what you are hiring the guide for and let him know what you expect before you ever make the deal. After you pay the money, you won't get it back if the outfitter has different ideas of what will make you hunt successful.


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## Andy Drumm (Dec 23, 2008)

No one is saying it all needs to come to an end , just that the state needs to enforce the regulation that is already on the books .. I am sure there are legal operations , but the majority are not .. They are "selling " our bear or elk or what ever they are guiding for .. The whole time harassing the locals .. Making threats on other bait hunters and dog hunters .. Something needs to be done !! They do not own the property they are using !! They do not control the property they are using !! 
And the threats that are made and all the harassment , falls under the hunter harassment law .. 

No one is jealous lol .. Just watching out for our resources ..


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## TQO (Oct 28, 2000)

Having operated an outfitting business for the last 10 years, I can shed a lot of light on this subject.

1. Outfitters, guides and anybody else that is using state property for commercial use is required to have a DNR Land Use permit. The permit is not expensive ($75 the last time I checked). What is expensive is the conditions of the permit. You must have insurance naming the State of Michigan as additional insured (I'm not sure any outfitter could insure the State). You also must have a rescue plan in effect in case of emergencies for each government agency that you would encounter (Counties, Townships, Villages, Cities). If I remember correctly, you also had to post a bond with the state. This was told to me in direct conversation with the head of DNR Law Enforcement in Newberry a few years ago.

2. Not only do guides and outfitters need a DNR LUP, any organized event of 20 people or more (I believe this is the number) must have a LUP. This includes all the poker runs that take place. I ran into this doing an ATV poker run. I had to have emergency plans in effect in 8 government units. At that point, it became an unorganized event and I had the riders break up into groups of less than 20.

3. Guides don't' shoot the bears (or deer). The clients do. I had a 67 year old man that shot a 75 pound bear because he said he may not ever get another permit. The bear was legal. I agree with whoever said that I would like to see all these 200 and 300 pound bears on an accurate scale. If you carried out the bear with less than 4 people, it was not a 250 - 300 lb bear. They are very hard to carry unless you have a cart or other means to carry them. Every hunter has his own trophy and they can shoot any legal animal with any legal weapon, whether guided or not.

4. My guides were inspected every year by the DNR. The DNR would show up and ride along with the guide while picking up hunters. We did have a bow holder screwed into a tree one time and the officer heard a hunter unloading his rifle after legal shooting hour. No tickets have ever been issued and the officers were very helpful. They never investigated a LUP and my company never had one, however, we starting hunting all private property the last few years.

I'm going to write a book one day on all the stories about our outfitting business. It is closed now. When I started outfitting, there were 2 bear guides in Woods and Water News including me. That was in 1998. In 2008, there were 34.

Don't be afraid of outfitters. Some are very good. If you want to know actual kill rates, ask the outfitter how many hunters he had last year for all species. After he tells you, ask him for every name and phone number. That way, you can figure out your own success rates and satisfaction rates. If he can't supply you with every name and number, find another outfitter.

I'm more interested in outfitters having to provide proof of insurance. The $75 that the state collects for a LUP is nothing. A hunter falling out of a tree or a boat can be a large burden on the hunter if the outfittter is not insured. Most of the outfitters if not all, are using their vehicles to transport hunters without commercial vehicle insurance. Most commercial policies are $1,000,000 coverage. A hunter will need that if injured in the outfitters vehicle.

I have talked to people that have hunted with Mac and heard both good and bad, just as you will about my outfitting business. Decide what you are hiring the guide for and let him know what you expect before you ever make the deal. After you pay the money, you won't get it back if the outfitter has different ideas of what will make you hunt successful.


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## zelda (Dec 12, 2008)

Then guides should be treated like charter boats. I own some property on a river. The river charter boats come and camp there all day long with there clients right off my bank property. How would you feel about that? Nothing I can do about it except get up ealier in the morning to fish off my bank. there is such a thing is hunter/fish harassment.:lol:
I would think you would be more concerned about the Corporations buying land, logging it off and then closing all the access trails. Is this progress? Only way accessing the land is by foot. I think not. . .


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## Andy Drumm (Dec 23, 2008)

Lol okay .. You dont own water ways .. There are permits and rules and insurance requirements for charter boats also .. But they are enforced .. 

As for closing land ..lol .. Open your eyes .. The state is closing trails and roads all the time .. I live next to a large area of state land .. They shut the roads down years ago ..it had nothing to do with large corporations ..


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

It is not illegal to charge for guiding a bear hunt. They are charging for putting you up, feeding you, transporting you to and from your stand and for baiting, etc. If they were charging for the animal then there would be a violation.
It is a pointless topic. A few guides may brake the rules as far a using barrels on public land or other minor violations and they are dealt with by the DNR. You would have to be a total (insert word of choice)to get anything other than that out of the regs and to think the DNR just lets it happen. Get a life.


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## zelda (Dec 12, 2008)

I agree with ya Slammer. 
If the guides are running rampant up dar why don't the locals put the pressure on the DNR? If they are breaking the law turn them in. You must have a lot more spare time on your hands than i do. as you do . . . LOL
Nobody has to open my eyes about land closures. I sold all my quads over 10 years ago when they close 80% of all the cycle trails. They've closed alot more of them down here that UP. The state finally opened there eyes and seen the lost revenue. That's all it's about!
Hunters need to stop bickering between themselves and support each other. Whatever kind of game you hunt.
Believe me . . . once you get the out of touch lawmakers into it, They'll screw it up.:lol:


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