# cub killing



## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

At the Dec. 12 Bear Management meeting it was brought up, 16 illegal cubs slipped through the bear registration process in the U.P. in 2008.
It has been a pattern over several years, finally coming to light. 

Adam Bump, MDNR's leading Fur Bearer Specialist responded stating, although it is unfortunate...it does not have a significant impact on Michigan's bear numbers, and it is similar to what other bear hunting states experience. Simply put...MDNR has not expressed an interest in solving this problem.

Mr. Bump's response is rational. However, there's one serious problem with that position. The general public has no forgiveness for cocker spaniel size bear being harvested and at times held up as a trophy. Public support for bear hunting errodes because of it. We can either keep turning our back on cub killing or try to find ways to reduce it.

There is no doubt, the cub killing is unintentional.

Would you support changing cub violation language and adopt Wisconsin's 42 inch determination? Their regulation identifies any bear measuring less than 42 inches from tip-of-nose-to-tip of tail as an illegal bear. Currently, we have no way of telling whether or not a bear is actually a cub, or merely a very small yearling. 
Conservation officers tell me they have great difficulty determining a cub from a small stunted yearling. Too much size variation. Establishing a regulation where bear measuring under 42 inches at least provides a positive identification for enforcement purposes.

It would be simple enough to place an object like a log, or branch 
beside the bait for size comparison. It would not solve the problem, but it would likely reduce the numbers.


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## tallbear (May 18, 2005)

Perhaps a mandatory "education of client" portion to the new "guide permit" system would help this situation.


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## jackbob42 (Nov 12, 2003)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> It would be simple enough to place an object like a log, or branch
> beside the bait for size comparison.


Heck , I can't even get the guys on here to put a yardstick at their bait stations. How do you expect to get people state-wide to do it? :lol:


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

tallbear said:


> Perhaps a mandatory "education of client" portion to the new "guide permit" system would help this situation.


Thats always a step in the right direction. Bear hunting seminars held in various locations might help. I know from my own experience. Until you see a few bears. Size is very hard to judge. Cribbing and measuring sticks were helpful. 

ATB


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

I hear ya Jackbob. The suggestion is just a small step, but it beats doing nothing and suffering the consequences somewhere down the road.

And another fly in the ointment is the fact...in 2008 16 illegal cubs were actually registered at check stations in the U.P. as legal bears. It turns out the U.P. has private registration stations, and they have a varying degree of standards. We know some guide's, or their close friend's operate check stations. Greed being what it is, there would be some motivation to slip a client's undersized bear through the registration process. The 42 inch measurement would help eliminate such accusations.


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## Barry (Sep 19, 2001)

jackbob42 said:


> Heck , I can't even get the guys on here to put a yardstick at their bait stations. How do you expect to get people state-wide to do it? :lol:


If the DNR issued tickets for under-size bear, people would start using the yardstick at the bait. A little public embarrassment goes a long way toward motivating most people to do the right thing.


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

Why the big uproar?
No different than shoot'n a button buck
And some people will justify that to no end......


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## hubbarj (Jan 30, 2007)

Last i heard you could purchase an antlerless deer tag but not a a cub tag. We are talking about 2 very different wildlife populations my freind.


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

hubbarj said:


> Last i heard you could purchase an antlerless deer tag but not a a cub tag. We are talking about 2 very different wildlife populations my freind.


Sorry I was referring to hunter Ethics.
To shoot either shows a lack of there of.


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## hubbarj (Jan 30, 2007)

No problem I misunderstood what you were saying an i agree completely.


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## thehuntingauthority (Oct 22, 2009)

sullyxlh said:


> Why the big uproar?
> No different than shoot'n a button buck
> And some people will justify that to no end......


Are you serious there are about 1.5million deer and 15,000 Bears( Guess) .There is No comparison .Shooting cubs is what LOSERS do !

Button Bucks are very tasty but I wouldnt shoot one for a thousand bucks .People that cant get a doe or a 1.5yr and up buck shoot them and then wonder why they never see a 1.5yr and up buck. Yeah also losers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## coyote/dave (Mar 10, 2009)

is killing cubs an ethics problem, rather than a threat to current bear populations..... the d.n.r. is going to give out tags regardless... is the tag wasted on a cub vs. killing an already bred sow that has run off her cubs.......another question....how many sows with cubs get killed each year....no witness no crime.... in a world where we manage by numbers a used tag is just a number..... is a non-breeding cub as important to the population as a breeding sow...or is to many tags the real reason our bear population in the u.p. is in trouble... it is probably wiser to fight the battles that benefit us all ..... reduce the amount of tags and everthing else falls in line............ as for cub killing: we live in a world where many people lack the moral courage and integrity to just walk away and say the bear is too small.... don,t think the yard stick theory will ever change that.............


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## Mtnman198 (Jan 5, 2001)

We wouldnt need to reduce tags if they quit killing cubs.... I have heard of dozens of cubs being killed by accident over the years, mostly by guys who are "trying" bear hunting for the first time... Almost in all cases, it was under a guided situation. It happens way more than you think it would. Also, it has a huge affect on the population/size based on my experience in certain areas...

I like the measuring stick idea. Use a flag,log,or stick to double check size. It is very tuff to determine size from any height or distance. The higher you are in a tree, the harder to judge.


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## coyote/dave (Mar 10, 2009)

a cub does not reach breeding potential for years.... male bears kill cubs to force females into heat and competition for territory..... if someone chooses to burn their tag on a cub i don't see the overall impact.... in order to have a healthy bear population you need a good mix of all age groups.... the reason we have so many small bears in some areas is because we continue to over harvest the largest bears in the system illiminating the healthiest breeding population...... still a matter of ethics....... so if we continue to issue too many tags and focus on the largest and healthiest bears in the population base we end up with small bears or no bears..... whats the real agenda here..........


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## Mtnman198 (Jan 5, 2001)

Not being counted against the set harvest goals seems like it would have an impact. Unless the MDNR already figures x % will be killed by hunters/bears/nature.... just seems to me hunters do have an impact no matter what, otherwise why do they call our all our hunting/fishing sports a "sound resource management tool"

Accidents do happen just as with button bucks, but mostly due to rushing a shot or not being educated in what to look for.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Some folks just don't get it. The general public does not accept cub killing. There is a fair amount of disgust directed at bear hunters here in the U.P. by the general public because they are seeing too many cubs and small bear that appear to be cubs...put on display on meat poles and hauled around on vehicles. It is a hunter ethics issue GET IT!!! If you don't think public opinion and ethics is important to the future of bear hunting in this state keep making excuses why its no big deal.


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## Bearboy (Feb 4, 2009)

Male bear do not kill cubs to force sows into heat. That is a fact. Cub killing by male bears occur in rare instances. Big boar avoid sows with cubs for the most part. 

Now for my opinion. Perception of hunting by the nonhunting public is almost as serious as the exploitation itself. Both can jeapordize the future of hunting. The cub killing and even worse wet sow killing is a result of the lack of legal game. Hunters shoot whatever...just want to get a bear...the lottery system and paid bear hunts only feed this unethical hunting of small bear and wet sows.


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