# CWD and food plots



## jackbob42

Seems something fishy is going on here to me...........

1 , just 1 , deer tests positive for CWD , in an enclosed herd mind you.
It's supposed to be SOOO contagious yet no other deer on the farm has it. Just that 1. BANG! NO BAITING !
All of the sudden , the only thing left on the shelves to sell is foodplot seed. And I noticed that there was only 2 bags of that left.
And who supports foodplotting??? :16suspect:16suspect:16suspect
Kinda makes you wonder , don't it?

You can't put bait out , but if you buy a bag of our seed and plant it , you're ok.:16suspect:16suspect:16suspect
After seeing that there was only 2 bags left , it seems to be working for them.


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## beer and nuts

Great point swoosh, it could be two-fold. CO and WI do not have a baiting ban law either(WI ban is inthe hotzone and not even close tothe entire state), nor do alot of states with cwd or the neighboring states to cwd. Back at you--why not?? Food plots law are very hard to distinguish or put on books because of agricultural mindset, because you have organizations that would fight till the end for it and biologists are so inter-twined with these special interest groups that they would never pull the trigger its polictical suicide for them. And I say this, only for the present time and not the future. 

Pics from 2001 in club country, uh?!? No kidding...that practice is long gone but our up-to-date DNR uses those for its 2008 seminars...doesn't surprise me...thats why I asked!


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## Pinefarm

That was a neighbor that had the 10pt shot. I'd never seen it. 

If 90% of baiters followed the 2 gallon/Oct. 1 rule, I think legal baiting would be acceptable. Plus 2 gallons doesn't alter movement, make deer nocturnal, etc.

QDMA isn't dividing anyone. It's those who choose the old management style that segregate themselves. 

What is there to unite on? Traditional deer management? More deer? Big bait piles? 
Um, no. I'm not divided about where deer management is headed in the future, and that's QDM.


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## Pinefarm

That was a neighbor that had the 10pt shot. I'd never seen it. 

If 90% of baiters followed the 2 gallon/Oct. 1 rule, I think legal baiting would be acceptable. Plus 2 gallons doesn't alter movement, make deer nocturnal, etc. But few followed the 2 gallon rule. And very few guys jacklight. That's how that 10pt was poached.

QDMA isn't dividing anyone. It's those who choose the old management style that segregate themselves. 

What is there to unite on? Traditional deer management? More deer? Big bait piles? 
Um, no. I'm not divided about where deer management is headed in the future, and that's QDM.

I'm done haggling here with a couple armchair generals. You guys post away and I'll keep talking to the deer biologists. So far, all they've done is ENCOURAGE me to plant plots. If and when that encouragement ends, I'll stop. I won't matter much to me either way. Food plots are low on the appeal scale on my property. I may even stop my plots if MDNR is neutral and plant with thick cover. I think thick cover will attract and hold more deer than rye.


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## swoosh

poz said:


> So we are going to compare and punish the guys that do it legally to guys that do it illegally. You guys have to step back and take a look at what you are preaching. BOB, you complained that a poacher shot a ten pointer you were watching about a month ago. should we ban hunting in your area because of it.
> 
> QDM is coming out looking as an organization that isn't about if a law is right or wrong, but is this going to benefit us or not. who cares if it hurts other hunters, what is it doing for us.
> 
> It's ashame that we have a hunting organization out there that wants to divide hunters for their own personal gain


poz

That is not my point, I am putting the blame where it belongs. 

Fact is we did not follow the law, a lot of us. DNR knew it, and they wanted to ban it. We know this to be true, now they have their silver bullet.

As for D & B sudden care for disease control, he knew TB was help spread by baiting. I wonder even though the science was there to show baiting caused spread of TB, why did he not stop baiting? Even though it was legal

Yes we know like most you only bait "a little", but for some reason you need justify your baiting and I do not understand why, it was a legal hunting method in SLP and still is in UP.

2 gallons of bait is not going to hurt a thing, now only if we could get hunters to understand how much 2 gallons bait is and why we only want 2 gallons out.


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## swoosh

beer and nuts said:


> Great point swoosh, it could be two-fold. CO and WI do not have a baiting ban law either(WI ban is inthe hotzone and not even close tothe entire state), nor do alot of states with cwd or the neighboring states to cwd. Back at you--why not?? Food plots law are very hard to distinguish or put on books because of agricultural mindset, because you have organizations that would fight till the end for it and biologists are so inter-twined with these special interest groups that they would never pull the trigger its polictical suicide for them. And I say this, only for the present time and not the future.
> 
> Pics from 2001 in club country, uh?!? No kidding...that practice is long gone but our up-to-date DNR uses those for its 2008 seminars...doesn't surprise me...thats why I asked!


WI did ban it and the legislator over turned it, I predict same here in MI.
I went the the seminar in 2001:lol: Sorry point was not made clear my bad.


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## FREEPOP




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## sagittarius

swoosh said:


> If the science was there CO, WIS and others states would have them banned years ago.


 Nope, politics always trumps science. In WI we are left with a "political compromise" as a half ***** solution. Two gallon limit, per 40 acres, only during deer season, in non-CWD counties only(about 75% of state). This has created the number one, most popular, game violation each year. Both inside CWD zones, and over baiting in the rest of the state. Attempting to enforce the baiting ban/limits is a huge waste of law enforcement time, expense, and resources. Baiting/feeding should have been abolished permantly. Hopefully Michigan will not make the same political mistake Wisconsin did. JMHO


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## fairfax1

Freepop....if there's room there let me get another punch in at the old carcass.

Swoosh & Pinefarm have a valid point: Namely, _*IF *_the methods of baiting as practiced by the vast majority of baiters had simply observed the law as prescribed - 2 gallons (max) spead over 100sqft (minimum) - then the issue would probably be a non-issue.

*But, alas, that is not the way it was practiced.* It was widely and consistently abused by depositing excessive amounts, and/or too many bait sites, and/or depositing it prior to October 1st, and on and on.

One may ask, well, how do you know that? where is the proof of that? ....... And those questions are not out of line; however, my contention is that I'm not trying a case in a court of law; or establishing rigorous scientific proofs; where evidence and verifiable facts, must be laid out to eliminate any or all reasonable doubt.

........Naw, that's not how rigorous we common guys....pro- & anti-....need be. We simply need to have that minimal eye-to-eye understanding so common in any human informal communication. In other words, our individual anecdotal evidence...repeated time and time again....serves quite well to establish that: "We know the score",...."We know what's what".

Sure, that's touchy-feely...but it is how we all communicate with our acquaintances at so many levels. 

I know....and I know you know.....that baiting for deer was widely abused. Perhaps not by you, but just maybe by the neighbor across the fence; maybe by those guys over on State Land; maybe by those fat cats with all their Private Land; maybe by most everybody who bought a 25lb bag of carrots; maybe by the guys who are buying sugar beets by the tractor scoop, tandem-wheeled trailer load. 

For example, if one observes too many empty 25lb 'bait' bags scattered in one of his favorite grouse spots....it doesn't take the CSI squad to inform that maybe, just maybe, those baiters were dumping the whole darn bag at one time. 
Take the story down to the DewDropInn and tell the regulars at the corner of the bar that you're positive those baiters were carrying in the whole bag but only using half of it at a time. That'll boost your credibility. 

My point, after all this, is the same point Swoosh & Pinefarm are making, namely, baiting, as practiced in Michigan, was far more frequently than not, a violation of our game laws. And the baiting community has brought down upon their own heads much of the opprobrium they have gotten.


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## Munsterlndr

fairfax1 said:


> One may ask, well, how do you know that? where is the proof of that? ....... And those questions are not out of line; however, my contention is that I'm not trying a case in a court of law; or establishing rigorous scientific proofs; where evidence and verifiable facts, must be laid out to eliminate any or all reasonable doubt.


When one is making a decision that will result in an approx. $50 million dollar economic impact to an all ready flagging economy, don't you think a slightly higher standard should be imposed then the anecdotal input of a group that has an admitted pre-disposition to being opposed to baiting? 

I don't recollect the DNR justifying this ban due to hunters previous inability t comply with the two-gallon limit. I thought this was all about the spread of CWD? Are Yooper baiter's more prone to adhere to the two-gallon limit? If not, why is baiting still legal there, if the motivating factor is really due to previous inabilities to abide by bait limits? Sorry, you are going to have to do better than that in justifying the recent ban.


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## beer and nuts

> As for D & B sudden care for disease control, he knew TB was help spread by baiting. I wonder even though the science was there to show baiting caused spread of TB, why did he not stop baiting? Even though it was legal


Wrong. I followed the 10x10 area(spread it out even more) and 1-2 gallons. If you follow this the threat of TB being spread was and is very very limited, miniscule percentages to zero. The science is there that shows baiting(areial photo of 2001, that kind) is the threat, hence the dnr reason for 2 gallon limit. The truck load baiting(club country) was the culprit, some of the pictures were amazing back then...100's of deer on semiload-doubles piles, feeding 24/7, 365 days. The decrease in TB showed the 2 gallon worked and the practices of large scale feeding pretty much eliminated by the clubs in NE Mich has played a huge part AND the large deer harvests there too. If baiting vai 2 gallon was so detrimental TB would be in every county in NLP and increasing. 

Bythe way I did limit my baiting greatly during that time. Didn't deny the threat and started to do my part...


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## fairfax1

The poster above noted: _"When one is making a decision that will result in an approx. $50 million dollar economic impact to an all ready flagging economy, don't you think a slightly higher standard should be imposed then the anecdotal input ....."_

The poster, while no doubt sincere and well meaning, is confusing one _perception_ with another.

The decision to ban baiting was due to the _perception_ by qualified veterinarians in positions of public responsibility, and career wildlife biologists, also in positions of public responsibility, to enact a first-step measure in restricting a practice widely, and near universally, recognized as a risk enhancer to disease transmission. At least that's what I've read and heard from authorities.

Contrast that to quite another issue; the widespread and near universal, _public perception_ that deer baiting as practiced in Michigan was consistently abused, a violation of our game laws. 

I've seen no communication by the MDNR or the MDA referencing the habit of illegal bait practices with their decision to enact prudent preventative measure to inhibit the spread of CWD. 


Then the posters' instruction: "_....you are going to have to do better than that in justifying the recent ban."_

Again, the earnest respondent to my original post is confusing one issue with another. As mentioned above the authorities weren't using the illegal practices as justification. Nor was I. 

I was using the too common, too frequent, anecdotal observations of widespread illegal baiting as a justification as to why the practioners have brought criticism and notoriety to their ranks. 

The vast majority of Michigan's baiters...tho one must be careful, not _ALL_... consistently engaged in illegal baiting practices. Acknowledge it or not, I'm here to tell you, that is the _perception_ by the vast majority of Michigan deer hunters themselves...even if they baited themselves. It is the 'hidden' secret that is widely understood but not publicly admitted to.

Baiters have no one but themselve to blame for their ill repute.


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## swoosh

beer and nuts said:


> Wrong. I followed the 10x10 area(spread it out even more) and 1-2 gallons. If you follow this the threat of TB being spread was and is very very limited, miniscule percentages to zero. The science is there that shows baiting(areial photo of 2001, that kind) is the threat, hence the dnr reason for 2 gallon limit. The truck load baiting(club country) was the culprit, some of the pictures were amazing back then...100's of deer on semiload-doubles piles, feeding 24/7, 365 days. The decrease in TB showed the 2 gallon worked and the practices of large scale feeding pretty much eliminated by the clubs in NE Mich has played a huge part AND the large deer harvests there too. If baiting vai 2 gallon was so detrimental TB would be in every county in NLP and increasing.
> 
> Bythe way I did limit my baiting greatly during that time. Didn't deny the threat and started to do my part...


Great point and I am doing the same with food plots, following the law. The risk is pretty low also.

Your point to plotters is there is a risk we should stop, even with 2 gallons there is a risk, so I ask why did you not stop?


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## poz

The fact of the matter is that for years QDM was saying that we should manage for a healthy herd. Now that food plots are shown to possibly help spread the disease, they don't want to hear it. WHY? 

As far as listening to biologist, we did that and in areas like LAKE county, we over shot the does upon their advice, Then a few years later they came out and admitted we overshot the areas and now we have limited doe permits in those counties around there. Their mistake is taking 4 to 5 years to get the herd back up to ideal levels. I pray they don't make the same mistake for food plots. Another point is that food plots are voluntary planted and can be distroyed by their owners. So even though they are not illegal, but may help the spread of this disease, QDM is not taking any steps to be proactive.WHY?WHY?WHY?

Also most hunters I know will bait 1 to 2 times a year. Within 2 to 3 days the bait is gone. If a 1 acre food plot is visited by an average of 5 deer a day. even for 1/2 a year. thats over 900 a year visiting this plot, yes it's probably alot of the same deer visiting over and over, but this disease is spread through feces. The amount of feces in that food plot would far out way the chance of a contaminated deer spreading the disease if it visited a food plot everyday instead of a bait pile a guy baited a few times a year.


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## poz

swoosh said:


> Great point and I am doing the same with food plots, following the law. The risk is pretty low also.
> 
> Your point to plotters is there is a risk we should stop, even with 2 gallons there is a risk, so I ask why did you not stop?


Maybe the point is that, now we know there is a risk, but the plotters view has turned into the baiters view of we are not going to stop until you make it illegal.


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## swoosh

> The fact of the matter is that for years QDM was saying that we should manage for a healthy herd. Now that food plots are shown to possibly help spread the disease, they don't want to hear it. WHY?


Show me where QDM said this? Fact matter QDM promote health deer numbers pretty much eliminates the threat, and this goes for baiting as well.

MI with the "right" population a way lower risk than it is today. So again you are leaving some "facts" out. Making very braod statements that cannot be backed up IMO.



> Maybe the point is that, now we know there is a risk, but the plotters view has turned into the baiters view of we are not going to stop until you make it illegal.


I am fine with that if the DNR does say, hell I am fine with a statment from DNR asking hunters to stop planting them.


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## poz

swoosh said:


> I am fine with that if the DNR does say, hell I am fine with a statment from DNR asking hunters to stop planting them.


Thw CWD alliance says that they contribute, I'm sure they have more knowledge than the Michigan DNR.

But their views don't seem to be beneficial to plotters, so they'll just ignore them.


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## swoosh

poz said:


> Thw CWD alliance says that they contribute, I'm sure they have more knowledge than the Michigan DNR.
> 
> But their views don't seem to be beneficial to plotters, so they'll just ignore them.


 
Dude do you work for Obama, he could use a man like you:lol:

Being bait did the samething and we knew it in 1994 with TB, did you stop baiting?

I find it funny some here call others hypocrits, but yet they did they exact same thing plotters today are doing, following the law.

Fact baiting cause disese to spread, you knew and I knew. Did you bait deer within the last 12 years? Did you follow the law? No more than 2 gallons? If so you did what you accused the folks who plot are doing. Putting the risk of spreading disease.

I stop baiting at age 14, why? Because I found it easier to kill bigger bucks without it. I support all legal hunting methods, some I disagree with, but I support them.

I also do not use calls or any device that bring deer closer. I am using a synthetic scent to run "scent traps" line. My biggest worry to date is deer urine(from farms) and mock scapes.

I hope you write the DNR to stop dnr urnine from these farms being sold and used in MI. Think about a CWD infected deer urine being put in a mock scrape, it will spread like wildfire.


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## beer and nuts

> Great point and I am doing the same with food plots, following the law. The risk is pretty low also.
> 
> Your point to plotters is there is a risk we should stop, even with 2 gallons there is a risk, so I ask why did you not stop?


I did!!! Ball is in your court!


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## beer and nuts

> Fact baiting cause disese to spread, you knew and I knew.


 Actaully its assumed but never proven.


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## scott kavanaugh

beer and nuts said:


> I went to this web site(CWD-INFO.ORG) and asked a question(s) related to cwd and food plots and if any studies were in progress. Here is his response:


B&N great job- Here's my question. Don't we have any DNR folks that went to school at Michigan. Why do we only have a MSU biologist running around wanting to ban baiting? If we're going to overreact and err on the side of caution, I guess it's up to the baiters to get this valuable imformation to the NRC & DNR about the dangers of plots.

Being that were leading the country in safety an all, according to QDM and Dr. Miller, wasn't it?


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## swoosh

beer and nuts said:


> I did!!! Ball is in your court!


You were forced too 
Baiting has been proven to spread disease, TB proved that, you knew and you still baited. pot meet kettle

So since you have such a grave concearn for the health of the herd, Why did you bait last 10 years? When you knew it help Spread TB?


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## .480

"Baiting has been proven to spread disease, TB proved that,"

Show me the hard data backing that statement up.

Without all of the : "Possibly, could, might, thought to, chance etc...." phrases left out of the findings.


I have never read anywhere that anyone has ever said that baiting was the reason for tb or cwd.


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## swoosh

.480 said:


> "Baiting has been proven to spread disease, TB proved that,"
> 
> Show me the hard data backing that statement up.
> 
> Without all of the : "Possibly, could, might, thought to, chance etc...." phrases left out of the findings.
> 
> 
> I* have never read anywhere that anyone has ever said that baiting was the reason for tb or cwd*.


Never stated baiting was a "reason". I stated baiting helps in spread disease. 

My point is B & N and POZ are hammering guys for what they have been doing the last ten years.

We all knew baiting could help spread disease, yet even with these facts and herd comes first mentality of these two, they still baited. I would like to know why? If they are going to call me and others out, I am fine with that, but at least be able to back yourself up.

How much money has B & N spent and POZ on the health of the herd out besides license fees?

Do they belong to any organzations? Like whitetails forever? What have either of them done the last ten years to help the health of the herd?

This is what I have done

60+ acres planted in CRP for habitat and cover.
Focus on shooting more does to help bring down deer herd in our DMU. Did I mention we are under goal

Worked with DNR to restore wild turkey in are area. We went from 0 to a flock over 125

Planted food plots for deer and turkeys. Turkey plot being the biggest, Sunflower, Sorgrom, buck wheat.

All this done with my own money, own time. Investment was made to impove my hunting, it was also made to improve hunting in future also.

I have made an investment in our land, to impove the deer habitat and turkey habitat.

I ask again, Why if D & B and POZ who knew baiting could cause the spread of disease in their hunting area, and they have the herd health as their number 1 priority did they continue to bait?


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## Rancid Crabtree

I thought I would share this with you since it applies to this topic. Here is the question.

Hello Brian, I have a question that is currently a hot topic on several internet discussion boards. What are the current suggestions for dealing with food plots for whitetails? Specifically, I would like to know if the planting of 1/8 to multiple acre plots of clover, corn, soybeans, etc. is viewed in a negative manner re: CWD transmission? In other words, is food plotting viewed in the same negative light as is baiting and feeding? Thanks 

The answer:

Difficult to answer your question. 

We know that saliva from late-stage CWD+ animals is infectious. We know that respiratory secretions from TB+ animals are infectious. We also know that these infectious materials remain viable for prolonged time periods. We know that a bait pile tends to congregate artificially high numbers of animals to the same spot. So, if an infectious (shedding disease agent) animal visits a bait pile, there is ample reason to believe that infectious material would be left at the bait site for subsequent animals to ingest. And because the bait pile is small (relatively speaking), if additional animals visit the bait pile, the odds that they will be exposed are pretty high. 

Without the bait pile, a CWD+ animal will still be shedding infectious agent into the environment where it will persist for some period of time. But will another animal (1) encounter the infectious agent and (2) ingest enough infectious agent to become infected? Maybe, maybe not. There is ample reason to believe that some CWD+ animals never infect additional animals. But if you artificially promote contact between the diseased and others, you greatly enhance risk. 

The take home message from this is that anything that results in artificial congregations of animals increases the risk of disease transmission (assuming that some quantity of infectious agent is present). 

Now, what about a food plot? 

If a CWD+ or TB+ animal visits a food plot, how much infectious material does it leave behind? Hard to say, but more than likely enough to infect other animals. 

And what are the odds that other animals will be exposed to that infectious material? The odds may be lower with a food plot than a small bait pile, and would depend on several factors, including: - how large is the food plot? - how many infected animals visit the food plot? - how long do the infected animals stay there (how much infectious material do they leave behind)? - how many other (healthy and susceptible) deer are visiting the food plot? - how often do they visit the food plot? - how long do they stay at the food plot? 

But the odds of disease transmission at a food plot are still most likely higher than if the food plot was not there. From this perspective it would be hard to argue that a food plot is much more than a large bait pile (in the fact that both are designed to attract deer to a known location). 

Another way to look at this is from a different angle. 

What are the consequences? 

Clearly the consequences of TB are pretty steep. Part of this comes from the fact that TB can spill back and forth between livestock and wildlife. 

And what about CWD? Available research suggests that CWD does not affect domestic livestock or human health (or at least has not to date). So we're talking primarily about impacts on deer. And the verdict is not in on that yet. What we know: - CWD is contagious, always fatal, etc. to deer. - CWD seems to spread quite easily between deer. - CWD prevalence can get pretty high (~35% prevalence in adult male hunter-killed deer [combined white-tailed and mule deer> in a substantial geographic area of Wyoming). - There aren't a lot of documented instances of successful CWD management in free-ranging deer populations. 

In other words, CWD is not good for individual deer, is not good from a population perspective either, and once you have it established in a free-ranging population, you will probably not ever get rid of it (at least nobody has yet). 

So, is the risk, however slight it may be, associated with food plots worth it? Only the states, and the stakeholders in the states, can answer that question. States that have banned baiting have taken a stance and identified that the risk associated with this practice is too great. To my knowledge, no state has banned food plots. But maybe this is due to the fact that it would be almost impossible to clearly delineate/enforce what a food plot is and is not (is it a food plot, a garden, or a field?). 

Hope this helps. 

Bryan J. Richards Chronic Wasting Disease Project Leader USGS National Wildlife Health Center 

---------------------

Bryan was also on the WI CWD advisory committe that I was on.


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## poz

swoosh said:


> I ask again, Why if D & B and POZ who knew baiting could cause the spread of disease in their hunting area, and they have the herd health as their number 1 priority did they continue to bait?


You state that the DNR has not yet asked for food plots to be banned. I admited I have hunted over bait, food plots, farm fields, etc. mostly I don't hunt over bait now. But I did and I might again someday. But I didn't hunt with bait in 452 I followed the laws the DNR had for us at the time. 

But, the attitude you have now is the same one that you don't like about us. You keep saying we knew baiting spread disease, yet we still did it, isn't this what you are doing now. The evidence points that foodplots possibly could contribute to the spread of this disease and your attitude is the same as ours, we won't stop until the DNR bans it. So welcome to the club.

As far as what you have contribute to the health of the herd, I commend you. 

The difference between us is that My hunting property has CRP, farm fields, woods, swamp. A healthy herd, Average bucks shot are 3.5 to 4.5 years old. The only difference is I call it what it is, a place where my partners and I can shoot large deer, We don't call it QDM and say we are doing it for the herd. we are honest about it.


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## jafurnier

Having moved here from Ohio and having hunted whitetails extensively in IA, KS, KY, OH, WV, and yes...MI, I must say the MI deer hunting scene leaves me with a sour stomach. Why? We constantly fight and argue over a resource that is so poorly managed...that we never get around talking about the way it could be. As soon as someone recommends any change...this state explodes with controversy. Most MI hunters have no clue what lies outside MI borders. It really is disappointing.

Now...with regard to some of the many comments made by various posters:

First...about me:

* I support QDM. I no longer take pleasure in shooting the second dumbest deer in the world (a 1-1/2 yr old buck). The only deer dumber is a button buck. I would rather - and do - shoot a doe. But this is me...if you want to do it...have fun. It's a free country. When I was a kid and just got into hunting...shooting a spike or a button buck was just as exciting as my last 150" deer. We should not take that away from people.

* I have, when it was legal, used truck loads of bait. From a hunting method standpoint, I don't care if baiting is legal or not. To each his own. I like hunting over plots. If baiting were still legal, I would do that too.

* I now own 40 acres and have 8 acres of food plots spread over my property. So I am a big food plotter. Planting them and shooting a deer over them is more rewarding than shotting a deer over a bait pile. Also, spring in MI is a killer for me. After the long winter...getting out on my tractor has proven to be a great remedy for winter blahs.

My questions...

1) Can someone show me where the "QDMers" are fighting to keep food plots like baiters are fighting to keep baiting legal? So far, all I still read focuses on planting and maintaining food plots. There are a very few articles highlighting the downside of baiting and the upside of food plots, and factually they are correct. Bait piles are more dangerous from a herd health standpoint than bait piles. (That doesn't mean though plots don't have their downsides too.)

2) Bait piles versus food plots. Comparing a bait pile with a food plot is like comparing a MIRV intercontinental ballisric missle with a .22 caliber single shot. They both fly through the air and kill but beyond that they have very little in common. But having done both extensively, I find that:

a) Yes...they both attract deer, but it takes a huge plot to pull in the same numbers of deer as to a truck load of bait. I gurantee it will take 1 -2 acres of plot to pull in the same number of deer as a single truckload of bait. My friends that used to bait entensively also learned what I have learned through experience. And...if you think a 10' x 10' food plot will attract a deer...your kidding yourself.

b) Food plots do not congregate deer in the same density as bait. Yes, both might increase the probabilty of deer congregating and thus increase the chance of deer sharing disease. But how can anyone genuinely argue that a 2 acre food plot concentrates deer the same as a truckload sized pile of food? Not only that, but how can one argue that biting off a leaf creates the same risk of disease as 3 deer chewing on the same beet or carrot? Again...both bait and plots congregate deer, but not in the same density. 

3) Food plots mimic natural feed locations. By their very nature, deer are gregarious in the fall. They congregate at the best food sources. That fact cannot be changed. Watching deer feed, they either browse along a trail...or congregate in some food rich area - mast trees, cuttings, fields, etc. Which mimics the natural habits of deer more - a bait pile or food plot? My standing corn, my fields or rape and clover force the deer to spread out. I would agree that food plots might incrementally increase deer concentration...but the benefits to general animal health would seem to me to outweigh the slight increase in risk.

You know...I wish they would not have banned baiting. But they did. But to turn around and start whining that they should now ban food plots is childish. To start crying about QDM...that too is childish and fueled by a general lack of knowledge. If you ever hunt a state or property that has a quality herd...you would change your mind. There are guys at work that sound just like half of these posts, when I ask if they have ever hunted a managed property or a good deer state...they all same the same thing...No. Which makes me wonder, how credible are their arguments?

Take a deep breath folks...


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## beer and nuts

I answered your question swoosh, but thats not good enough for you!?!?

Congrats on swoosh on what you have done for your pleasure...pat yourself on the back...not sure why you had to brag about what you did, but hey if it makes you feel accomplished than great. 

At what point do people have to do something along the lines of qdm and food plots to say they are doing things for the health of the herd...OK...thats your belief in your management style...not mine. I shoot what I think is neccessary for that year..too many does, I'll buy a doe permit.....I hunt the woods as they are whether clearcut stateland, oak, swamps....I don't feel its neccessary to cut down midstage forests on my private to plant rye fields, nor do I have the time and money...I do way too much with other hunting/fishing and kids school activities...I do better than most in hunting around here without getting all excited about how others hunt. the herd is healthy...as been for generations around here....TB came from cows and cwd came from out west....

I told you...I quit baiting...now what have you done to help stop the spread of cwd??

hey jafurnier...welcome and only your second post. You gusy have got to stop the truckload baiting stuff....that so 1990's....very rare anymore where a landowner is dumping truckloads...weak arguement. 



> But how can anyone genuinely argue that a 2 acre food plot concentrates deer the same as a truckload sized pile of food?


 We don't nobody has but you!? Now replace "2 gallon bait pile" with your truckload and it starts to make sense to you...doesn't it?? Or can you have another excuse!?



> Food plots do not congregate deer in the same density as bait.


 Thats pretty general statement and in lots of cases that i have seen...actually not true.


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## Munsterlndr

jafurnier said:


> You know...I wish they would not have banned baiting. But they did. But to turn around and start whining that they should now ban food plots is childish. To start crying about QDM...that too is childish and fueled by a general lack of knowledge. If you ever hunt a state or property that has a quality herd...you would change your mind. There are guys at work that sound just like half of these posts, when I ask if they have ever hunted a managed property or a good deer state...they all same the same thing...No. Which makes me wonder, how credible are their arguments?
> 
> Take a deep breath folks...


Welcome to this site, now let me ask you a few questions.

Ever planted root crops in a food plot? Pretty common practice in Michigan. Your assumption that food plots are always of the leaf variety and that bait is always beets or carrots is simply faulty. Root crops planted as food plots allow the multiple deer that congregate in the plot to share the food and create identical conditions for the transfer of disease as the same crops utilized in a bait pile. Beets or turnips are not magically consumed by just a single deer when planted in a food plot. In contrast, broadcast shelled corn in the two gallon limit, presents a much lower opportunity for nose to nose contact or shared saliva then do root crops planted in food plots.

Sorry, your MIRV to .22 analogy just does not hold up in the real world and is typical of the hyperbole that many food plotters utilize to justify their actions. 

If you are putting in 8 acres of food plots on your property you are substantially increasing the carrying capacity of the available habitat in your area. It's indisputable that CWD poses a greater threat of being transmitted in areas where deer densities are higher. Please educate me on how you are not contributing to the potential spread of CWD by maintaining a higher deer density in your area, then would normally be supported by unimproved habitat?

And for the record, I'm a QDMA member and a food plotter. I'm also intellectually honest enough to recognize hypocrisy on the part of many who condemn bait yet refuse to recognize that food plots offer an almost identical potential for facilitating the transmission of CWD, as baiting does.


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## ridgewalker

_Pretty soon they will consider cutting all the trees so there are no bedding areas and we will have to hunt desert or grassland. Oops grass might be considered baiting. If the deer starve except for ag areas there is no more need to discuss cwd spread, except that all the deer will be congregated in the farm fields. The farmers will enjoy that._


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## beer and nuts

Hey ridgewalker, come on up around my area, they already are cutting all the trees!! I know its hard to believe but deer survived just fine waaaayyyy before baiting and food plots....nature does just fine without us 100% of the time!


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## oldrank

You lost me with the truck load of bait comment Jafurnier.......Just like most of the other food plotters you cant tell the truth.......And that is the whole thing that turns the mainstream public off to QDM guys......they preach and preach but really they are just spinning in circles ......trying to prove how much better a food plot is then a bait pile......and they cant even tell the the true story....they inflate statistic....they inflate the fact that 2 gallons was the legal limit not a "truckload". Try to imply that all baiters are poachers because they all use over the legal limit.......stick with the facts and ya'll might get a few more people to be interested in your cause.......


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## jafurnier

Where in my post did I condemn baiting or baiters? 

Just because I plant food plots and believe food plots are safer than baiting, do you automatically believe I think baiting should be illegal and that I dont like baiters?

If baiting were legal, I would still do it. If there were no regulation on quantity, I would certainly use more than two gallons. I do not support the DNR ban on baiting. If I supported anything, it might be a ban on penned deer! (Oh nonow the hate mail from the deer growers association of MI.)

In terms of justifying my food plotsI dont have to justify anything to anyone one. I plant them for me and the wildlife that uses them. (Call me selfive for doing something for me.) The crazy thing isI rarely kill deer over them! 3 deer in three years. Planting them has more to do with me hating MI winters and needing a spring hobby than anything else. The rabbits, turkeys, and song birds that utilize my plots provide more recreation for me than the deer.

I will say thisI hold to my belief that baiting is not as safe as food plots. The deer that use my plots spread out over a much larger area than they ever did when I baitedeven when I spread it out over a large area. Why...its simple math...I don;t have anymore deer than I used to,,,but they have to scratch out a living over 8 acres instead of a smaller baited area. To me...it only makes sense that bait is less safe. But just as in my first postI chose my words carefully. I used relative terms and not absolute terms. I never said food plots posed no risk. They probably do. How much less risk plots are relative to baitI know of no scientific studies, but it has to be substantial.

All this being said...I think the whole CWD thing is blown way out of proportion. I think both bait and plots are not putting the MI deer herd at risk.

So after all of our typingI think if you read my posts carefully, we agree on the whole baiting issue with one minor exceptionthe relative safety of bait over plots. And even there, since I don't buy the whole sky is falling sales pitch from the DNR, even this point of contention should be moot.


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## oldrank

I also believe that baiting is not as safe as food plots but only in the regards of the TB issue......When talking about passing laws that have to do with CWD I believe it will make little difference.....They can make all the laws they want.....its not gonna have any positive effect on slowing the disease.....But I also believe it is more an issue of the root cropswhen it comes to overall spreading of diseases, because we know that both diseases are spread through saliva.......Using a corn spreader with a 2 gallon a day limit would reduce the threat to the same as any food plot....in my opinion.......The only thing they accomplished by banning baiting this year was to put a knife in the back of Michigans economy.


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## swoosh

oldrank said:


> I also believe that baiting is not as safe as food plots but only in the regards of the TB issue......When talking about passing laws that have to do with CWD I believe it will make little difference.....They can make all the laws they want.....its not gonna have any positive effect on slowing the disease.....But I also believe it is more an issue of the root cropswhen it comes to overall spreading of diseases, because we know that both diseases are spread through saliva.......Using *a corn spreader with a 2 gallon a day limit would reduce the threat to the same as any food plot....in my opinion*.......The only thing they accomplished by banning baiting this year was to put a knife in the back of Michigans economy.


I agree, now are we going to mandate corn spreaders, and since MI hunters have such a great track record of following baiting laws the 2 gallon limit should be easy:lol:


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## swoosh

poz said:


> You state that the DNR has not yet asked for food plots to be banned. I admited I have hunted over bait, food plots, farm fields, etc. mostly I don't hunt over bait now. But I did and I might again someday. But I didn't hunt with bait in 452 I followed the laws the DNR had for us at the time.
> 
> *But, the attitude you have now is the same one that you don't like about us. You keep saying we knew baiting spread disease, yet we still did it, isn't this what you are doing now. The evidence points that foodplots possibly could contribute to the spread of this disease and your attitude is the same as ours, we won't stop until the DNR bans it. So welcome to the club.*
> 
> As far as what you have contribute to the health of the herd, I commend you.
> 
> The difference between us is that My hunting property has CRP, farm fields, woods, swamp. A healthy herd, Average bucks shot are 3.5 to 4.5 years old. The only difference is I call it what it is, a place where my partners and I can shoot large deer, We don't call it QDM and say we are doing it for the herd. we are honest about it.


Dude my sig use to say
"I practice QDM to shoot big old bucks":lol:

I have 3 CRP field, but no swamp , but a river bottom.

In bold it is not my attidude at all, I am pointing out how some did the exact same thing that now you are beating them up for.

Now are using "Health of the Herd" Thanks for your honesty


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## swoosh

> I told you...I quit baiting...now what have you done to help stop the spread of cwd??


You were force too and you still have not answered one question, POZ did
Here it is

Did you bait in the last ten years when you knew it could help spread TB?

Yes or No

I have killed pile of does the last ten years to help reduce the herd in my area. Did I mention my DMU is under goal in the SLP.

I also created 60 acers of deer habitat, this allows deer to spread out more There not all conjested.

I have written NRC, DNR, Govener, and my Rep about the threat of deer urine sold from these farms. I see urine as a huge, huge threat


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## shorthair guy

CRP land...
Whats the location? I would like to come help keep the deer number under control. :evil:


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## beer and nuts

Of course I did, but even 3 years ago I wasn't informed/educated on the matter like I am now...unlike our DNR who had a "plan" madeup 6 years ago on the CWD matter...way too much new information from WI and other states...and it still coming and I'm still learning. The information we have now, clearly puts baiting and food plots(really I beleive the smaller the worse, the better quality and smaller the worse too) on the same level when it comes to cwd. 

10 years ago, were you on the same qdm level has you are now?? Same scenerio. Going back to the past is useless information...the time is now for cwd...so are you active or reactive? I have yet to see you critisize/educate someone on here about deer urine...the cam pic threads are filled with scrape and mock scrape pics where posters are using urine...!?

With the huge explosion inthe last 10 years with foodplots and the last 10 years of cwd being spread from state to state...could there be a link!? Makes you wonder.


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## soggybtmboys

B & N, we went round and round and round about this in a thread a little earlier. All that was presented was the same stuff, which really it all boiled down to is 'kiss my rear end I will hunt the way I want to'.......'prove it to me, till then tough'.........'might as well cut down the whole forest then'........'what about a farmer' field'....blah blah blah.

Alot of these same guys were the first ones to shoot off their pie holes soon as the baiting ban came into effect. I think certain types of food plots ought to go, if not most of them.....for all the right reasons. We are sustaining in certain areas, to high of a deer population, and to be honest if the deer are needing the supplemental plots to make it thru the winter, well then Mother Nature has selected those animals for death, and it is natural. Mother Nature is the great equalizer, population increases......predators increase. Still not enough, starvation. That don't get it, then here come the diseases. 

Population increase, increase predators.....we shoot and trap those too. Strike 1

Natural food starts to deplete, we supplemental feed or plant winter foraging areas.
Strike 2

Population is still not in check with Mother Nature, well here comes TB, CWD, and a host of other diseases that kill deer.
Strike 3

Mother Nature wins, once again. Think we would have learned long ago, Ma Nature holds the ultimate trump card.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248604


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