# a couple failures



## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

I took my first whitetail yesterday evening. The shot was with an excalibur micro suppressor crossbow using 16.5 inch quills and 150 grain boltcutter broadheads. The total arrow weight is 400 grains. I was roughly 24 feet up a pine tree, the deer was roughly 20 yards quartering away with about an 18-20 foot elevation difference.

I screwed up and tried to put the arrow behind the shoulder instead of aiming for the off shoulder. At the shot it sounded almost like two 2x4's being slapped together and the buck went down hard without taking a step, no movement, no visible breathing, nadda. After a few minutes the buck tried to get back up but was unable to do so. Another arrow ended it.

The first arrow caught the back half of the front left leg but somehow missed bone, went through one rib and hit the spinal column. Penetration was dismal and the majority of the arrow never entered the body cavity. The second arrow was an extreme quartering away shot to the same left side. The arrow went in 4 ribs from the back, grazed the first, through a second and grazed a third before exiting in front of the far right hand shoulder down low on the neck with just a couple of inches of arrow sticking out.

When I pulled the first arrow out it was loose in the deer with no broadhead attached and the ferral was driven back into the arrow shaft roughly 1-2 inches. I figured the broadhead was stuck inside the deer. After gutting and hanging the deer I have not located the broadhead. There appears to be no visible damage to the spine but is clearly the path the arrow took and was indicative of the bucks reaction to the shot. The second broadhead appears to be in perfect condition. 

Once again, bad shot placement on my part, I got lucky. I'm curious what caused the arrow/broadhead failure. I believe the foc is around 16-18%. The boltcutters are a chisel tip 3 blade fixed. I'll look later today where the shot took place and see if the broadhead somehow bounced back out the entrance and is on the ground, doubtful with the arrow shaft still in the hole but the broadhead does not appear to be in the deer. Perhaps it detached, changed angle into neck muscle and will be located when I butcher the deer?

I'm not sure this is strictly a broadhead failure per say. Poor arrow that lost integrity and came apart when hitting bone? Not enough foc? Not enough total arrow weight? Single bevel for bone more better? Bacon?


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

You can see the entrance for the first arrow high on the shoulder. Blood flow is from the second arrow that entered further back. Quartering away put the first show well into the front of the chest cavity.


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## ErieH2O (Jan 24, 2018)

Any chance there was any damage to the bolt from target practice? A slight knick or scratch would be a failure point when a high load is applied.


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

Good point but that was a never used arrow and broadhead. I'm thinking it has to be too low a foc or too light of an arrow, but 400 grains is typical for that crossbow.


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## hommer23 (Nov 20, 2012)

Chances are the deer flinched when the arrow entered and broke the head off or the head stayed from hitting bone and the arrow continued through. If you have a metal detector check the gut pile and the deer to see if you can locate the head.


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

look at the insert, is the threaded end of the broadhead broken and still inside? there is now way the broadhead should have come loose from the insert unless it was not tightened, Look closer at the hid is it showing cuts from the head? doesn't make sense for teh insert to be driven in 2 inches and no head. Looking at the broken arrow I don't see swelling from a insert being driven in...


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Looks like the shaft sheared at the rear of the insert.
Leverage and energy related most likely. Something had to give on the first shots hard impact.
Those boltcutters are tough.
You're above minimum weight. Can't fault that.
try double lunging your next deer and you should be fine.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Lightfoot said:


> *You can see the entrance for the first arrow high on the shoulder.* Blood flow is from the second arrow that entered further back. Quartering away put the first show well into the front of the chest cavity.
> View attachment 595247


I don't see it! Looks like a heart shot. Broadhead likely stuck in the far shoulder or leg.
<----<<<


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## o_mykiss (May 21, 2013)

Joe Archer said:


> I don't see it! Looks like a heart shot. Broadhead likely stuck in the far shoulder or leg.
> <----<<<


Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Unless there was some serious jumping the string and rolling/turning happening, hard to see how that entrance hole, which is a textbook lower 1/3 body behind the shoulder (for a broadside shot, obv its too far forward for a quartering away shot) could end up in the spine if it's an entrance wound from shooting down from a treestand


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## textox (Jan 30, 2020)

Lightfoot said:


> I took my first whitetail yesterday evening. The shot was with an excalibur micro suppressor crossbow using 16.5 inch quills and 150 grain boltcutter broadheads. The total arrow weight is 400 grains. I was roughly 24 feet up a pine tree, the deer was roughly 20 yards quartering away with about an 18-20 foot elevation difference.
> 
> I screwed up and tried to put the arrow behind the shoulder instead of aiming for the off shoulder. At the shot it sounded almost like two 2x4's being slapped together and the buck went down hard without taking a step, no movement, no visible breathing, nadda. After a few minutes the buck tried to get back up but was unable to do so. Another arrow ended it.
> 
> ...


Quite frankly i can not see how that entrance hole on a quartering away shot could have possibly hit the spine. If there was no exit hole then like Joe Archer said that head is most likely stuck in off side leg.BTW any hit below the scapula is a low shoulder hit.My 2 cents.And still a good end result...


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

He shot the deer twice. The hole you guys are refering too is the second shot.


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## textox (Jan 30, 2020)

Skinner 2 said:


> He shot the deer twice. The hole you guys are refering too is the second shot.


Not according to OP..


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

Here are two arrows with inserts pushed in. You can clearly see the shafts swelling or buckling. The only way not too see as much would be nylon inserts that shear the shoulder off.

What happens is you are seeing in a bad bonding job between the inserts and shaft.

Yours looks broken just above the insert. FOC nor weight have anything to do with this. If there is. No exit wound the broadhwad and remaining shaft is inside him. If exited the broadhead may have been driven into the ground and then sheared off from the twisting fall or thrashing.


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

textox said:


> Not according to OP..


Go back and re-read second paragraph last sentence. 3rd paragraph middle.


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## Baybum (Jan 9, 2008)

You had plenty of force behind the shot to do the job. Hit shoulder or leg bone and funny things are going to happen. Bolt and broadhead were not the problem.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## o_mykiss (May 21, 2013)

Skinner 2 said:


> Go back and re-read second paragraph last sentence. 3rd paragraph middle.


Yep, but the 2nd shot was back. We're talking about the first shot. 

OP clearly states in post 3 that


Lightfoot said:


> You can see the entrance for the first arrow high on the shoulder.


There's only one hole near the shoulder, and it ain't in a place where it should hit the spine, nor is it high, nor is it thru the scapula

There's no entrance hole that should produce a spine hit from shooting on a quartering away deer from 20 feet above it, unless there was some crazy deflection or intense string jumping

So... until OP clarifies, it's a bit of a mystery


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

o_mykiss said:


> Yep, but the 2nd shot was back. We're talking about the first shot.
> 
> OP clearly states in post 3 that
> 
> ...


Ok can see it that way now as well. I agree that hole if entrance isn't spine location...


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## textox (Jan 30, 2020)

Skinner 2 said:


> Go back and re-read second paragraph last sentence. 3rd paragraph middle.


Did it ,read post #17,no pissing match but you may have missed it.


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

textox said:


> Did it ,read post #17,no pissing match but you may have missed it.


No pissing match trying to figure this out as well. What post is 17 my phone doesnt tell me. Lol

Darn phone will not allow me to zoom in on specific areas. Grrrrt


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

Arrow/broadhead is in opposite leg or threw the deer. Bolt broke and movement of the deer moved remaining part of bolt towards the spine.
Hitting bone is why he heard the 2x4 sound.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

Agree heavy crack hard bone.

I cannot spot a high shoulder hit from my phone. Lightfoot can you help us out here perhaps and edit photo showing hits 1 and 2?


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

Long cold day with no sleep followed by an adrenaline surge. I took another look at it. The first arrow missed the spine but a blade may have clipped it, then went between ribs on the off side and exited the ribcage, barely punching into the opposite leg. He may have pushed back and turned at the shot making it less quartering and more broadside, escape was behind him, or my recollection is going south. A double lung was the intent, which I was too far forward.

I could not find it in the leg and spent 20 minutes looking where the deer went down. There is not a lot of ground cover right there, I'm guessing that broadhead is in the offside upper leg? Somewhere on the ground? I'll butcher it in a couple of days and know for sure then.

The shaft had a fairly clean brake to it behind the insert. I assume the broadhead is still attached to it. The vast majority of a broken off arrow sticking out the entrance side threw me. Columbo I am not. 

Still odd the way it went down like a total spine shot. Phone pic to follow.


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

Entry, pass through.. o





















pposite side


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## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

Your first photo and second photo don't match up. That low of a hit from a tree stand don't go high into the spine.
That has me baffled. 
Was the deer maybe shot before hand?
I have done that.
Shot a big doe, looked as if someone dumped a 5 gallon pail of red paint at hit sight. Deer showed no sign of being hit. 
But found two blood trail, one was weak coming in, and other heavy going away.
Well started to gut the deer 45 minutes after the hit.
2 guys are walking down the trail she came in on. They start yelling that I am stealing his deer.
I just lol and show them where I shot her. They than tell me than been tracking her for a mile.
They than look sad and say guess its your deer. I talk a bit more and find it is the guys first year bowhunting and his shot was high and just nicked a lung.
I look over and ask where they are parked.
Than tell them they owe me a beer for gutting his deer and assisting in the drag to my truck and than bringing the deer to his.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)

Aim small, miss small. I was aiming at a little indentation high on the shoulder that later turned out to be an old arrow wound....um, no. I'll agree the angle of the arrows path looks odd. The bucks problem, I was using a micro suppressor and not a Matrix, so Mr. Anderson was out of his element, but he tried.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

I dont see a high shoulder wound in the photo. Please point to the entrance hole for the first shot.


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## Lightfoot (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Stabbing with a long handled knife.
Hitting bone can cause deflection.
Yet you still got straight through the rear of the brisket. No spine involved.

Leg swing , or leverage caused by leg swing might be why your arrow sheared.
I had a rear brisket hit where the first swing of nearside leg (entrance side) sheared arrow shaft.
The way your pictured shaft is through the deer , it was secure enough to shear off from that exit side leg. Plus the other leg was working the shaft...


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## Skinner 2 (Mar 19, 2004)

The circled area is.much more elbow vs shoulder. You were not high in the least bit. Just too far forward with the angle. 

Think Waif discribed things pretty good. Hitting both legs, shoulders, or shocking the spine can drop them right down. Sometimes after the shock wears off they can get up and cover a lot of ground. 

Congrats on a fine buck.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Skinner 2 said:


> The circled area is.much more elbow vs shoulder. You were not high in the least bit. Just too far forward with the angle.
> 
> Think Waif discribed things pretty good. Hitting both legs, shoulders, or shocking the spine can drop them right down. Sometimes after the shock wears off they can get up and cover a lot of ground.
> 
> Congrats on a fine buck.


Agreed. The entry went into the elbow area and when a hit gets into any area where the jumping, reflex motion of the leg can hit the shaft, then a broken arrow, even pass throughs, can happen. It happened to me this year on my second buck. The bolt, minus the fetching half was stuck in the ground where hit. I never did find the back half of it.


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## eidson.rex (1 mo ago)

Have you ever thought about the second arrow clipping the first arrow.


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