# Effective ranges



## Groundhog69 (Sep 25, 2006)

By the way guys....This is a great topic!!!!


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Soggy

When I first started loading hevi I put a lot of shot on paper and I started losing my pattern at 60 yards with a patternmaster tube. At a 70 yards you become a flock shooter.


Griffondog


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

soggybtmboys said:


> I have vacation in a week and I am gonna do that and take my digital camera. Gonna take a few different shells and a duck patterning sillohuete. Take a few shots at a couple of different long range shots from a bench. I have a few hevi shots left and plenty of steel. I will take pics and post them when I get back from vacation. I will be taking my laser rangefinder as well. Input on test yardages guys? Thinking one at 50 yards, another at 65 yards, one at 75 yards, and the last at 100 yards. Ideas would be welcome and helpful. Thinking modified choke, would be more hunt scenario true.


Don't try this test with steel,,, or at least use some 3.5" BB's, BBB's, T's, F's,,, you get the point. The yardages sound good for the test. Do you have a 10ga. as well? I'm quite curious as well to see how this turns out.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

griffondog said:


> Soggy
> 
> When I first started loading hevi I put a lot of shot on paper and I started losing my pattern at 60 yards with a patternmaster tube. At a 70 yards you become a flock shooter.
> 
> ...


Thanks Griff,

I may shoot the paper anyways to have it posted here for everyone to see. Sometimes seeing is believing, especially in certain circles.

Soggy


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

William H Bonney said:


> Don't try this test with steel,,, or at least use some 3.5" BB's, BBB's, T's, F's,,, you get the point. The yardages sound good for the test. Do you have a 10ga. as well? I'm quite curious as well to see how this turns out.


 
Yeah I got a Browning BPS 10. I have some of the bigger loads for the 10 ga, and those shells are all 3.5 inches. My Berreta does not allow for a 3.5 inch so the test will have to be with a 3 inch shell for a 12 gauge.

Soggy

ps. will test with the Hevi shot and some steel for comparison.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

with ballistics what they are, the only steel that would have a hope of doing any type of damage at 100 might be F,TT,T maybe BBB but Id think that is asking a whole lot. I do not pass shoot with steel at the 50-yards+ pass shooting I do. If one is going to do it the ONLY way to do it is with Hevi or equivalent. The reason being the amount of shot in Hevi is much more than a steel load. More pellets/more % of a vital strike.
I can relate to you once upon a time using a Browning BPS 20 ga [witnessed] shooting down a mallard [with steel 2s] at 70 yards. The interesting thing was this. It came down near us, I retrieved it and it "woke up" wriggling in my hand. I snapped its neck. The guys all around swore Id used a 10 ga because nothing less would bring it down. Later I cleaned it and it had a bruise on the side of its head! It had only been knocked out! Steel shot is very strange. Ive never liked steel and only use it for a finishing shot on crips [which isnt often].
One of the favorite pass shooting loads is the 1-1/2 oz load of NO4 [works on geese and ducks at pass shooting distances very well]. If you have any try the pattern at say 60 yards with M or a F [Hevi-shot approved Full] and let me know your conclusions. I havent worked with patterns but use that load with much success in the pair of Benelli Nova 3-1/2 mag guns I typically use waterfowling.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

If you have a range within reasonable driving distance, I would be happy to bring the 2 Benelli 3-1/2s and an older NEF single shot 36 in Barrel 10 ga [have some lead and Steel 3-1/2 10 ga ammo I could shoot. Plus a selection of Hevi-shot for the 10 and 12s. 
Of interest Id like to see the Hevi-T dead coyote and Hevi 00 Buckshot tested also to see how they do. Back in the OLD days along the fence at the Lapeer state game areas we used to use those old 10 gauges with No4 BUCK and 00 Buck for geese pass shooting. I will say I and others shot many high flyers back then when it was legal to do so. Opening day there long ago people lined the fences and it was an anti-aircraft barrage that had to be seen to be believed. Shooting from lawn chairs. My how times have changed.:lol:


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

Huntsman27 said:


> ,,, Opening day there long ago people lined the fences and it was an anti-aircraft barrage that had to be seen to be believed. Shooting from lawn chairs. My how times have changed.:lol:


:lol: It used to be like that at Harsen's Is. as well,,, every day of the season,, the guys lined up on the refuge wall. I wonder if they still do that,, or can? It's been so long since I've been there.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Huntsman27 said:


> If you have a range within reasonable driving distance, I would be happy to bring the 2 Benelli 3-1/2s and an older NEF single shot 36 in Barrel 10 ga [have some lead and Steel 3-1/2 10 ga ammo I could shoot. Plus a selection of Hevi-shot for the 10 and 12s.
> Of interest Id like to see the Hevi-T dead coyote and Hevi 00 Buckshot tested also to see how they do. Back in the OLD days along the fence at the Lapeer state game areas we used to use those old 10 gauges with No4 BUCK and 00 Buck for geese pass shooting. I will say I and others shot many high flyers back then when it was legal to do so. Opening day there long ago people lined the fences and it was an anti-aircraft barrage that had to be seen to be believed. Shooting from lawn chairs. My how times have changed.:lol:


 
Nope, unfortunately the local range shutdown some years ago, so when I do my test here in about a week. I will be up in Oscoda shooting out behind the house. I don't think I am gonna have enough time or room to do this test down at another club that is not too far.


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## hondorob (Aug 23, 2005)

... but I know guys who can kill turkeys all day at 70 yards and even greater, if they have the right setup, with #6 shot even, Hevi. But with the tight choke required to reach out that far, that means that at 25 yards the pattern is a fist-sized limb-sawing swarm that would simply massacre a poor duck. I compare it to rifle shooting at those close ranges, not pure shotgunning techniques. Intuitively I think that's probably the problem with all types of long range shotgunning: Coming up with a load/choke combo that would serve all ranges from 20-80+ yards. 

Not saying it can't be done, but I too would have to look at some targets on the range, covering that full range spread (unless you were gonna be swapping loads/chokes during the day's hunt, which is possible too I guess).


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## FMann (May 12, 2007)

Ok I don't condone shooting any thing out past 50+ yards with any kind of load for ducks and geese. But I have hunted guided goose hunts where the guide would pull up after all of us "clients" got done shooting and would start to unload on sailers, crips or the flock, his adverage shot was 70+ yards and he killed each goose with only 1 shot and moved on to another goose until he was empty, he killed a goose for every shot. Now I understand this is not the normal but he did it and he "didn't" miss, or not on the day's I was in the blind. 

Another point I would like to make someone said something about amount of pellets in a shot shell. Well let me tell you if your shooting 1 1/4 oz of shot I don't care if its steel or hevi shot or lead, if your shooting #2's then you have the same number of pellets in all these shells! They package steel loads in a common package and call it 1-1/4 oz but in reality its not a 1-1/4 oz weight load. The same can be said for any other load size you want to consider be it 1-3/8's or 2oz loads. The steel is loaded by mass and not weight!

Now for the farthest shot I have seen while I was duck hunting was my 12 year old son on his first duck hunt in the last minute of hunting time (I thought it would be a clean miss) was about 70+/- yards and he killed it dead with 4 pellets hitting the duck 1 in the breast 1 in the head (I think the kill part) and 2 in the neck, this bird droped stone dead to the water (it was a bluebill), it was shot with a Reminton 12ga. 11-87sp. with a 3" #2 1-1/4oz winchester steel shot shell. by the way I relize I have conterdicted myself but I didn't think he would hit the duck and thought he would just be shooting to hear the gun go off.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

FMann said:


> Ok I don't condone shooting any thing out past 50+ yards with any kind of load for ducks and geese. But I have hunted guided goose hunts where the guide would pull up after all of us "clients" got done shooting and would start to unload on sailers, crips or the flock, his adverage shot was 70+ yards and he killed each goose with only 1 shot and moved on to another goose until he was empty, he killed a goose for every shot. Now I understand this is not the normal but he did it and he "didn't" miss, or not on the day's I was in the blind.
> 
> Another point I would like to make someone said something about amount of pellets in a shot shell. Well let me tell you if your shooting 1 1/4 oz of shot I don't care if its steel or hevi shot or lead, if your shooting #2's then you have the same number of pellets in all these shells! They package steel loads in a common package and call it 1-1/4 oz but in reality its not a 1-1/4 oz weight load. The same can be said for any other load size you want to consider be it 1-3/8's or 2oz loads. The steel is loaded by mass and not weight!
> 
> Now for the farthest shot I have seen while I was duck hunting was my 12 year old son on his first duck hunt in the last minute of hunting time (I thought it would be a clean miss) was about 70+/- yards and he killed it dead with 4 pellets hitting the duck 1 in the breast 1 in the head (I think the kill part) and 2 in the neck, this bird droped stone dead to the water (it was a bluebill), it was shot with a Reminton 12ga. 11-87sp. with a 3" #2 1-1/4oz winchester steel shot shell. by the way I relize I have conterdicted myself but I didn't think he would hit the duck and thought he would just be shooting to hear the gun go off.


Instead of using NO2 steel, I can use 4 or 5 Hevi-shot with far more pellets than a Hevi NO 2. However, your wrong about equal pellets because steel is lighter it takes MORE of them to make 1-oz [or any other weight comparison being equal] compared to Hevi.This is why the 3-1/2 mags were brought to market to up payloads to near lead loads. The same amount of steel REQUIRES a loarger internal capacity for the payload. The major difference is the Hevi NO5 pellet carries the same amount of energy as a NO2 steel pellet [reference Hevi shots ballistic tables] Therefore I would have far more pellets in the load which have the same ft. lbs. of energy as a steel 2. More pellets= more chance [statistically speaking] of striking and killing the bird. Also Hevi recommends stepping down 2-3 shot sizes for comparable energy as its heavier than lead.


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## FMann (May 12, 2007)

Ok point taken about using smaller shot sizes with hevi shot. 

But I am RIGHT when it comes to number of pellets in a shot shell being the same when compairing steel and any other type of shot if shot size is the same! I have cut open and counted pellets from steel and lead shot shells. If there is a difference it is only 1 or 2 pellets and the adverage is the same for all types of shot shells. Steel is "NOT" loaded by weight it is loaded by "MASS". 

Now to the 3 1/2 12ga. load; The Gun companys made this as its cheaper to buy a 12ga. then a 10ga, and there is more marketability to the 12 that shoots 2 3/4,3, and the 3 1/2. Most "older" Duck hunters still only shoot the 2 3/4" shot shells. Another reason for the 3 1/2" shot shell is it's cost and they can put "MAGNUM" on the box and people think (it is the greatest thing since sliced bread) and they can kill game at remarkable ranges. If more people would spend more time shooting their guns and getting to know them they would kill more ducks!


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/hevi_hitter/


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

FMann said:


> Ok point taken about using smaller shot sizes with hevi shot.
> 
> But I am RIGHT when it comes to number of pellets in a shot shell being the same when compairing steel and any other type of shot if shot size is the same! I have cut open and counted pellets from steel and lead shot shells. If there is a difference it is only 1 or 2 pellets and the adverage is the same for all types of shot shells. Steel is "NOT" loaded by weight it is loaded by "MASS".
> 
> Now to the 3 1/2 12ga. load; The Gun companys made this as its cheaper to buy a 12ga. then a 10ga, and there is more marketability to the 12 that shoots 2 3/4,3, and the 3 1/2. Most "older" Duck hunters still only shoot the 2 3/4" shot shells. Another reason for the 3 1/2" shot shell is it's cost and they can put "MAGNUM" on the box and people think (it is the greatest thing since sliced bread) and they can kill game at remarkable ranges. If more people would spend more time shooting their guns and getting to know them they would kill more ducks!


Which Sir, include me. [Iam 45 yrs old] 3.5 inch shells were made to accomodate the payload to equal load for ducks. Good grief I wish I didnt have to re-educate all you newbies but ok. Most older duck hunters didnt use 2-3/4 inch shells of steel as its foolish. The payload is increased with 3 and 3-1/2 inch shells. If your a cheap SOB. If not buy the Hevi-shot or other available shells and blaze away. They can cash in the ducks at any reasonable range.
The 10ga offers NOTHING over the 3-1/2 12 gauge. If you think so your a dolt with no understanding of the ammunition available. Oh man, I cant wait til goose season opens.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Pretty good data on all the different non-lead loads currently available. (By type).

http://www.gameandfishmag.com/hunting/guns-shooting/gf_aa116802a/


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

will you? Id be more than happy to shoot with you opening day. Not to mention holding the trapshooting record at Iosco Sprotsman club for straight run at trap. Cmon and join me!!!


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Huntsman27 said:


> will you? Id be more than happy to shoot with you opening day. Not to mention holding the trapshooting record at Iosco Sprotsman club for straight run at trap. Cmon and join me!!!


 
Never gunned over at Tuttle Marsh, not even sure where it's at. Usually gun over on Cedar Lake if I catch the opener up at the folk's house. If you are offering and I can make it, would love to! Might even offer ya a trade, opening day with you, November divers in a layout on Cedar Lake....interested? Gotta offer ya something , may not here the end of it LMAO!:lol:


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

soggybtmboys said:


> Never gunned over at Tuttle Marsh, not even sure where it's at. Usually gun over on Cedar Lake if I catch the opener up at the folk's house. If you are offering and I can make it, would love to! Might even offer ya a trade, opening day with you, November divers in a layout on Cedar Lake....interested? Gotta offer ya something , may not here the end of it LMAO!:lol:


You. Really, Id like to shoot with you. no one is perfect and one has to realize, that even shooting the pass shooting distances we do, its all hit or miss. I have 3 shots to connect, if I dont big deal. I dont care everyone misses sometime.
The hilarious part is guys that figure every shot is a dead duck which isnt so. I dont care if the shots 20 yards or 60 yards the probability of missing is dependant on a multitude of factors. Like I said, if its in my scope of range ill be discharging the gun!!!


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Huntsman27 said:


> You. Really, Id like to shoot with you. no one is perfect and one has to realize, that even shooting the pass shooting distances we do, its all hit or miss. I have 3 shots to connect, if I dont big deal. I dont care everyone misses sometime.
> The hilarious part is guys that figure every shot is a dead duck which isnt so. I dont care if the shots 20 yards or 60 yards the probability of missing is dependant on a multitude of factors. Like I said, if its in my scope of range ill be discharging the gun!!!


 
Is that all you guys do over at Tuttle, is pass shoot? If that is the case think I would blow the dust off the Browning (BPS 10 Ga.) Have done some pass shooting over at the cross dike by Sugar Island, usually with the 10 ga. but have not done that in years, sounds like fun. I just looked at the price of Kent Tungsten-Matrix, holy crap has it gone up, on sale at Cabela's for *48.99 a box of ten!!!!*

You don't get sea sick do ya? Need to know if I need to throw a bucket for ya in the layout boat, best days are blowing and rolling pretty good!


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## hondorob (Aug 23, 2005)

FMann said:


> But I am RIGHT when it comes to number of pellets in a shot shell being the same when compairing steel and any other type of shot if shot size is the same! I have cut open and counted pellets from steel and lead shot shells. If there is a difference it is only 1 or 2 pellets and the adverage is the same for all types of shot shells. Steel is "NOT" loaded by weight it is loaded by "MASS".
> 
> Now to the 3 1/2 12ga. load; The Gun companys made this as its cheaper to buy a 12ga. then a 10ga, and there is more marketability to the 12 that shoots 2 3/4,3, and the 3 1/2. Most "older" Duck hunters still only shoot the 2 3/4" shot shells. Another reason for the 3 1/2" shot shell is it's cost and they can put "MAGNUM" on the box and people think (it is the greatest thing since sliced bread) and they can kill game at remarkable ranges. If more people would spend more time shooting their guns and getting to know them they would kill more ducks!


FMann, first of all, your semantics are a bit off. Mass is the same as weight for our purposes, as we assume that the force of gravity is a constant (Astrophysicists might need to calculate the variability of gravity, but we shotgunners needn't bother, trust me.). MASS = WEIGHT. 

I can't say that I've cut apart a bunch of shells, but my understanding of it is that the payload/mass/weight of a 1 ounce #3 shotshell is the same no matter what material in the shot itself... it's exactly 1 ounce. Now, if the shot is made up of the denser Hevi, then intuitively we know that there are FEWER actual pellets in the _Hevi_ 1-ounce shotshell than in a 1-ounce _steel_ shotshell. And I think you'll find the manufacturer's literature supports our intuition. This is due to the Hevi being 20-30%+ more dense as we know. 

If you've discovered a discrepancy in pellet counts, I'd let the manufacturer know about it, because that's bad packaging, and might even be dangerous.

I'd have to agree with most of what Huntsman is saying here, that he downsizes shotsize when using Hevi, and that the smaller diameter Hevi packs the same lethality because it's denser material than steel. And so he gains a better pattern while sacrificing nothing on the terminal end = dead ducks.

I also would have to agree that the 3-1/2" shells came about because of the switch to the lighter steel. If the manufacturers had just packed steel of the same shot size as the old lead shot into the same old shell, it would have meant decreased lethality. Again intuitively, we know that in order to maintain hitting power at the terminal end, we have to increase the volume of shot to get back up to the same mass of shot as lead provided... hence more people shooting 3" and the 3-1/2" shell coming on as we've seen. 

Further, since steel is so much less dense than lead, those #4 steel pellets don't hit as hard, so you have to downsize to #3 or even less to kill ducks as well as lead, and because of geometry and the additional voids created as you pack larger pellet sizes, you need additional volume in a shell to regain terminal energy for a single pellet. Thus the need for 3-1/2". (to illustrate, is there more void volume between large boulders, or small grains of sand? It's the boulders.) 

A lot of blather... and I'm not even a waterfowler, so sorry for preaching.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

soggybtmboys said:


> Is that all you guys do over at Tuttle, is pass shoot? If that is the case think I would blow the dust off the Browning (BPS 10 Ga.) Have done some pass shooting over at the cross dike by Sugar Island, usually with the 10 ga. but have not done that in years, sounds like fun. I just looked at the price of Kent Tungsten-Matrix, holy crap has it gone up, on sale at Cabela's for *48.99 a box of ten!!!!*
> 
> You don't get sea sick do ya? Need to know if I need to throw a bucket for ya in the layout boat, best days are blowing and rolling pretty good!


Even got a pr of snow geese on the opener. If you NEED a 10 ga bring it along....Ill use the Benelli NOVA 12 3-1/2. The boat anchor NEF 10 36 in BBL is for sale. There isnt a NEED for a 10 GA anymore. Wait......isnt Dramamine for motion sickness? maybe youd need some...........Ill be shooting all your ducks! Then again, ill need a NOOB to reload my guns while I shoot the game!


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

hondorob said:


> FMann, first of all, your semantics are a bit off. Mass is the same as weight for our purposes, as we assume that the force of gravity is a constant (Astrophysicists might need to calculate the variability of gravity, but we shotgunners needn't bother, trust me.). MASS = WEIGHT.
> 
> I can't say that I've cut apart a bunch of shells, but my understanding of it is that the payload/mass/weight of a 1 ounce #3 shotshell is the same no matter what material in the shot itself... it's exactly 1 ounce. Now, if the shot is made up of the denser Hevi, then intuitively we know that there are FEWER actual pellets in the _Hevi_ 1-ounce shotshell than in a 1-ounce _steel_ shotshell. And I think you'll find the manufacturer's literature supports our intuition. This is due to the Hevi being 20-30%+ more dense as we know.
> 
> ...


that isnt a waterfowler! Thanks for a great post. maybe the noobs will get it. Ballistics are not that hard to learn.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Huntsman27 said:


> Even got a pr of snow geese on the opener. If you NEED a 10 ga bring it along....Ill use the Benelli NOVA 12 3-1/2. The boat anchor NEF 10 36 in BBL is for sale. There isnt a NEED for a 10 GA anymore. Wait......isnt Dramamine for motion sickness? maybe youd need some...........Ill be shooting all your ducks! Then again, ill need a NOOB to reload my guns while I shoot the game!


Becareful, this NOOB as you call me...very well may surprise you! Only 9 less seasons than you don't forget!!! Just because I say I prefer one thing as opposed to another does not mean I don't...can't.....or even won't!!! Lol!! Since the rule is age before beauty, I will even let you have the first shot!!!! I'll even bring ya some pepto for your upset stomach when the 'wonder from down under' whips your butt!!! Probably should keep your lab leashed to, because all he may end up fetching for you is spent hulls!:lol:

ohhhh. I think 18 years in the marsh pretty much qualifies me as a vet in most circles. Serious note, I would love to shoot with ya, might learn something different, always open to new ideas and experiences.


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## hondorob (Aug 23, 2005)

Man you waterfowlers are some trash-talkin' mofos!


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

hondorob said:


> Man you waterfowlers are some trash-talkin' mofos!


Yep and we love it lol!!!! Hey, got to have something to do at 4am sitting in cold water!!!:lol::coco: If ya don't talk smack in the duck blind, we think somethings wrong with ya!!!! Tell em Hunt!!!!!!!!!


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

soggybtmboys said:


> Becareful, this NOOB as you call me...very well may surprise you! Only 9 less seasons than you don't forget!!! Just because I say I prefer one thing as opposed to another does not mean I don't...can't.....or even won't!!! Lol!! Since the rule is age before beauty, I will even let you have the first shot!!!! I'll even bring ya some pepto for your upset stomach when the 'wonder from down under' whips your butt!!! Probably should keep your lab leashed to, because all he may end up fetching for you is spent hulls!:lol:
> 
> ohhhh. I think 18 years in the marsh pretty much qualifies me as a vet in most circles. Serious note, I would love to shoot with ya, might learn something different, always open to new ideas and experiences.


NOOB! Thats ok, Ive heard it all and seen it all. Until you clear 200x200 in trap or skeet Ill just be laughing at you. Age and beauty! I have all my own teeth and hair! lmao! Dont worry about me skip, I know when to shoot! I just hope as a RIO [rear information Operator] you can keep up.


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Huntsman27

Would you boys happen to do most of your shooting off Swan rd?


Griff


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

griffondog said:


> Huntsman27
> 
> Would you boys happen to do most of your shooting off Swan rd?
> 
> ...


Never been there.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Hey Hunt, you live up that way? Oscoda-Tawas area? Or just have a place or friends/family up that way? Like I said earlier, gonna be up that way at the end of the week for a little over a week, maybe hook up and talk shop over a beer. We are in Greenbush right on Cedar Lake, if you are interested hit me with a pm.


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Huntsman27

Glad to hear it because if that was where you hunt I WAS GOING TO DO A LITTLE RAGGING ON YOU.:yikes:


Griff


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

We usually hunt Tuttle marsh a few times per year. We were up there last weekend. Last I heard my record for straight run at Iosco Sportsmans club was still intact. The F-I-L was the former prez there.
Hope we can hook up somewhere near the opener for lunch or something. Always enjoy talking for a spell. Stay in touch the closer we get. Iam sure we will be up there for the Zone-2 opener [as usual]. We usually spend the night out in the marsh. Bring cards and chips!


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Sounds like a plan, just put a reminder on my calendar.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

What would be the size of pattern for a 3.5" Hevi shot #5's at 1400fps at one foot since I'm about ready to shoot myself after reading a dozen of Huntsman's ego posts where he's king of the world and no one else knows anything 

I started to reply, but there is just to much BS to address, I just don't have the time.

We really need the ability on this site to put users on an ignore list like on AccurateReloading, and not even see their posts.


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## ScavengerMan (Sep 6, 2006)

You don't have to read far into this thread to see why there are so many idiots skybusting in the marsh these days. It would be nice if the poor Michigan economy would weed out some of these clowns. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be happening......


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

ScavengerMan said:


> It would be nice if the poor Michigan economy would weed out some of these clowns. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be happening......


Ah...thats where you're wrong...More often than not, the skybuster is the guy that doesn't know the value of a $20 bill.

I've heard many guys say "It's only skybusting if you miss" (seems like a few have posted that here too). I hate to break it to them...just because the bird falls on the third shot doesn't mean it wasn't skybusted...


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

wow!

I'm glad I only read the last page.....


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Hey guys, we will see if hunt is really that good. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and be a good sport and see. If anything it sounds like a hoot, and should be some good entertainment. Sure he has done his share of shooting and is a decent shot and despite the posts I bet he is a great guy. A very good man said once, 'Talk softly and carry a big stick' believe it was Roosevelt. Remember, this is the internet, all us vets know the deal when it comes to ranges and exaggerated ranges. Thick skin here I don't mind a little ribbing if it makes someone feel better. Just hope someone is not trying to pass off 3 inches for a foot!:lol:


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## FMann (May 12, 2007)

Mr ScavengerMan
The economy loves these clowns as you call them. Just think they spend $1.00 to $7.00 a shell and shoot about 200 of them a day plus all the other junk they buy, why wouldn't the economy love them? It's the rest of the people in the marsh that can't stand them.

Huntsman 
what is a noob? I might be younger then you but I have sat my fair share of days in the marsh while waiting for the ducks to come by. I don't know if I have ever shot trap but I have done skeet and didn't do too bad broke 23 out of 25 I think it was, that was almost 18 years ago (how ever many are in a round I missed 2). I'm not trying to say I'm a great shot but I know what end of the gun the shot comes out of.


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## BITE_ME_TOO (May 21, 2003)

TSS Caddis said:


> What would be the size of pattern for a 3.5" Hevi shot #5's at 1400fps at one foot since I'm about ready to shoot myself........ I started to reply, but there is just to much BS to address, I just don't have the time.


Very Funny Post Tss- I just spent the last 25 minutes reading this thread and I am about to eat a shot gun as well........

This may be for another thread, but how many of you can "cleanly" identify a duck at 100 yards, or even 80 yards????? Yeah, it is a duck and not a goose. Yeah, it is a diver and not a puddler. You truly can't tell me that you can properly identify a Drake/ hen Gadwell w/ a hen mallard or a hen Canvasback to a hen redhead (at 100 yards)? Can you?

It it is your first duck, then pull the trigger and lead it a flag pole, but if you have 3 in your bag and one is already a hen Mallard- you may want to wait until it/ she gets closer to properly identify.......

BTW- great ballistic info guys- you all have definitely done your homework!

Jeff- BMT


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