# I Need help with Black powder handgun Laws (Again)



## Steven Arend (Jun 27, 2003)

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I or Do I NOT need a safety inspection on a black powder hand gun to legally carry it in the open while hunting?

I just went down to the sheriffs department to get an inspection report and first they told me that I need a permit to purchase. I told them that Michigan had change that law and all I needed was a safety inspection. She then walked off and after a few minutes she came back and told me that I did not need to register the gun or have a safety inspection because a black powder handgun is listed as an antic firearm. Is this right or am I going to be hulled of to jail when I get checked by the DNR officer?


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## Steven Arend (Jun 27, 2003)

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!

2004 House Bill 5427 (Clarify antique firearm regulations)

Public Act 99 of 2004

Introduced by Rep. Daniel Acciavatti on January 27, 2004, to clarify that a person does not need a permit to purchase, own, carry, possess, use, or transport an antique firearm. Antique firearm is defined as one manufactured in or before 1898, or a modern replica, which uses ammunition no longer made or readily available, or does not use rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition. This includes firearms using matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar ignition systems, or a replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898. 
Passed in the House (105 to 0) on February 25, 2004. Received in the Senate on February 26, 2004. 
Passed in the Senate (36 to 0) on April 29, 2004, to clarify that a person does not need a permit to purchase, own, carry, possess, use, or transport an antique firearm. Antique firearm is defined as one manufactured in or before 1898, or a modern replica, which uses ammunition no longer made or readily available, or does not use rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition. This includes firearms using matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar ignition systems, or a replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898. Received in the House on April 29, 2004. 
Passed in the House (107 to 0) on May 4, 2004, to concur with the Senate-passed version of the bill. 
Signed by Gov. Jennifer Granholm on May 13, 2004.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Don't know, local police handle the safety inspections. Best to contact them and go by what they say.


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## Hi Ho Silver_Joe (Aug 4, 2003)

I bought a Black Powder rifle at a local Meijers. They told me it was scratched because it was the floor model. I took it to the range, loaded the powder and sabot and it would not fire. I pulled the charge and re-loaded again. Still wouldn't fire. I came to find out the rifle was used and returned with a powder charge and round already in it. I was putting a charge on top of a charge! :yikes: I ended up complaining to the B.A.T.F. They told me there was nothing they could do beacuse a black powder weapon is not considered a fire arm at all. Is this true?


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

You should always disassemble any gun you buy to inspect and clean it FIRST!


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

I have a mark on my ramrod to tell me when it is EMPTY.

I have the rod for my double 12 ga. muzzleloader marked with the normal load level. I always check to make sure I haven't dumped a double charge in a barrel before I cap the nipples.


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## answerguy8 (Oct 15, 2001)

Hi Ho Silver_Joe said:


> I bought a Black Powder rifle at a local Meijers. They told me it was scratched because it was the floor model. I took it to the range, loaded the powder and sabot and it would not fire. I pulled the charge and re-loaded again. Still wouldn't fire. I came to find out the rifle was used and returned with a powder charge and round already in it. I was putting a charge on top of a charge! :yikes: I ended up complaining to the B.A.T.F. They told me there was nothing they could do beacuse a black powder weapon is not considered a fire arm at all. Is this true?


Not sure why you complained to the BATF (now the BATFE), but it's not likely to have been a big problem with the double charge. You would have just had a big fire ball when the first loaded charge pushed out the second load of gun powder and ignited in the air. What could have been a problem would be if your second load hadn't been seated frimly on top of the first. THAT could have caused a rupture. 

BTW- a way to get a charge out rather than pull it is to remove the nipple, but in as much black powder as you can (black pistol powder if you have it), put the nipple back on and fire it.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Hi Ho Silver_Joe said:


> I bought a Black Powder rifle at a local Meijers. They told me it was scratched because it was the floor model. I took it to the range, loaded the powder and sabot and it would not fire. I pulled the charge and re-loaded again. Still wouldn't fire. I came to find out the rifle was used and returned with a powder charge and round already in it. I was putting a charge on top of a charge! :yikes: I ended up complaining to the B.A.T.F. They told me there was nothing they could do beacuse a black powder weapon is not considered a fire arm at all. Is this true?


Black powder weapons are definitely considered firearms. Let a convicted felon that is prohibited from being in possession of a firearm have a black powder weapon an see how quick ATF acts.


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## Hi Ho Silver_Joe (Aug 4, 2003)

trout said:


> You should always disassemble any gun you buy to inspect and clean it FIRST!


Lesson Learned!


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

I would return the gun also, if that charge had been in there a considerable amount of time it could have caused some considerable corrosion.
Once you get that charge out of there have it inspected with a bore light to see how bad it is.


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## wackoangler (Jun 1, 2003)

Boehr, Black Powder guns are considered antique by the feds, since they are not considered firearms, a felon could possess and hunt with one, this is according to numerous references that I found on the web.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Since I don't enforce federal law and don't have the authority to enforce federal firearm laws it really makes no difference to me what federal law says. State law is more restrictive and that is what is enforced by LEO's, including CO's in Michigan. If I find a convicted felon with a black powder gun or antique firearm (kind of an oxi-moronic statement to say an antique firearm is not a firearm )the gun will be seized and the information will be provided to the prosecuting attorney and the prosecutor will decide if he will be charged and then a judge will decide. I have just had a muzzleloading rifle destroed that was in possession by a convicted felon. I can't make anyone believe it, just providing what the actions that will be taken by me and my officers at this time. Do as you choose.

ATF will, does and has acted too, under federal law, as we have given them cases.


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## Michigan Hunter (Sep 24, 2001)

boehr, last year I was suprised to hear that if I decided to hunt with a black powder pistol I was told it had to be registered. Reading the new law (I still can't figure it out) does that mean I can now use a black powder pistol to deer hunt with and not have it registered during November and Muzzle hunting season?


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

boehr said:


> Don't know, local police handle the safety inspections. Best to contact them and go by what they say.


and registrations.


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## Fishcapades (Mar 18, 2003)

boehr said:


> Since I don't enforce federal law and don't have the authority to enforce federal firearm laws it really makes no difference to me what federal law says. State law is more restrictive and that is what is enforced by LEO's, including CO's in Michigan. If I find a convicted felon with a black powder gun or antique firearm (kind of an oxi-moronic statement to say an antique firearm is not a firearm )the gun will be seized and the information will be provided to the prosecuting attorney and the prosecutor will decide if he will be charged and then a judge will decide. I have just had a muzzleloading rifle destroed that was in possession by a convicted felon. I can't make anyone believe it, just providing what the actions that will be taken by me and my officers at this time. Do as you choose.
> 
> ATF will, does and has acted too, under federal law, as we have given them cases.


Boehr, 
Felons, Can Possess A Firearm. Just Look At This THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931
750.224f Possession of firearm by person convicted of felony; circumstances; penalty;
applicability of section to expunged or set aside conviction; felony and specified felony
defined.
Sec. 224f. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person convicted of a felony shall not possess, use,
transport, sell, purchase, carry, ship, receive, or distribute a firearm in this state until the expiration of 3 years after
all of the following circumstances exist:
(a) The person has paid all fines imposed for the violation.
(b) The person has served all terms of imprisonment imposed for the violation.
(c) The person has successfully completed all conditions of probation or parole imposed for the violation.
(2) A person convicted of a specified felony shall not possess, use, transport, sell, purchase, carry, ship, receive,
or distribute a firearm in this state until all of the following circumstances exist:
(a) The expiration of 5 years after all of the following circumstances exist:
(i) The person has paid all fines imposed for the violation.
(ii) The person has served all terms of imprisonment imposed for the violation.
(iii) The person has successfully completed all conditions of probation or parole imposed for the violation.
(b) The person's right to possess, use, transport, sell, purchase, carry, ship, receive, or distribute a firearm has
been restored pursuant to section 4 of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, being section 28.424 of the Michigan
Compiled Laws.
(3) A person who possesses, uses, transports, sells, purchases, carries, ships, receives, or distributes a firearm in
violation of this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not
more than $5,000.00, or both.
(4) This section does not apply to a conviction that has been expunged or set aside, or for which the person has
been pardoned, unless the expunction, order, or pardon expressly provides that the person shall not possess a
firearm.
(5) As used in this section, felony means a violation of a law of this state, or of another state, or of the United
States that is punishable by imprisonment for 4 years or more, or an attempt to violate such a law.
(6) As used in subsection (2), specified felony means a felony in which 1 or more of the following
circumstances exist:
(i) An element of that felony is the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or
property of another, or that by its nature, involves a substantial risk that physical force against the person or
property of another may be used in the course of committing the offense.
(ii) An element of that felony is the unlawful manufacture, possession, importation, exportation, distribution, or
dispensing of a controlled substance.
(iii) An element of that felony is the unlawful possession or distribution of a firearm.
(iv) An element of that felony is the unlawful use of an explosive.
(v) The felony is burglary of an occupied dwelling, or breaking and entering an occupied dwelling, or arson.
History: Add. 1992, Act 217, Imd. Eff. Oct. 13, 1992.
Rendered 10/22/2004 11:53:58 AM Page 1 MCL Complete Through PA 354 of 2004
Courtesy of www.MichiganLegislature.Org © 2004 Legislative Council, State of Michigan
Table Of Contents
750.224f Possession of firearm by person convicted of felony; circumstances; penalty;
applicability of section to expunged or set aside conviction; felony and specified
felony defined.
1
Rendered 10/22/2004 11:53:58 AM Page 2 MCL Complete Through PA 354 of 2004
Courtesy of www.MichiganLegislature.Org © 2004 Legislative Council, State of Michigan


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Yes, providing they do certain things but, most felons don't do those things. There are many laws and many circumstances that deal with this. If anyone is a convicted felon and wants to guess what they can or can't do from this thread --- Good Luck.

Hence, I keep posting this, "Don't know, local police handle the safety inspections. Best to contact them and go by what they say."

So the arguements will have to continue somewhere else per the 'sticky note' above.


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