# Beginner Grouse/Woodcock Direction



## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

Hi all! 

I've always wanted to get into bird hunting but having no family or close friends into it, it just never panned out. I've been taking it upon myself to figure things out like this (I did it with walleye fishing, I'll be doing it with duck hunting, and I did it with public land deer hunting; just gotta get out there and start somewhere) but time is precious so I like to give myself the best odds I can before I get going. 

My main question for you is this:* What should I look for when choosing where to go?*

I wouldn't ask for your go-to spot. I want to find it myself, but I don't know quite what I'm looking for. I think I remember being told grouse like aspen and "edges" so I think I want to look for an area where a bunch of aspens turns into a bunch of something else. Is there more to it I should be aware of or is that really it? When I look at the MiHunt app, it will display aspen specifically, and there is a number assigned to density and age, is that important? 

Is something like this a good jumping-off point? It's in the Huron-Manistee National Forest, Mason County. I deer hunt near this particular spot every year for rifle opener.


















Next question is: *How do I hunt without a dog?* 

I have a chessie that isn't trained for anything but she has helped me bag a few rabbits. I don't count on her to be helpful on any hunt, I just like taking her for walks in the woods. Is my best bet to just walk real slow along aspen edges? Do I need to be like molasses slow or is it like rabbit hunting without hounds where you just bust through the thickets like a bull in a china shop?


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

Oh one more question! Is time of day important? As a deer hunter, I'm pretty sympathetic to the perspective of someone in a treestand in full camo who doesn't want to get sprayed with shot. Is it typical to hunt between, say 10 and 3, when most deer hunters are out of the woods?


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

Yellow 2's and 3's.

Weather permitting, I like to let birds move around and establish scent in the morning. Not a lot of guys in trees in aspen stands. 

Walk a zig-zag pattern, stop and listen, then walk some more and you'll flush birds. Birds also like structure. Head for a pine tree or a log. Birds will hear you walking and generally stay close to something that is concealing them. Or you'll see them running away like a road runner before they take flight.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

Look for 7-12 year aged aspen stands with jack pines scattered within, and if possible adjoining a creek, beaver pond or cedar and/or alder swamp. So on those MI-Hunt maps, Yellow 2s and 3s, and preferably next to lowland conifers or wetland bogs, or just simply a small creek or river since you're likely to find cedars there. 

That is just sort of a general rule. You can pinpoint those areas and go there and find nothing. These are just starting points. Things within areas like that, such as thornapples, witch hazel, dogwood, or other soft mast producing items will concentrate grouse, especially in the early to mid season, and in those time periods they are also focusing on alder catkins. Another item to look for is wintergreen, and a solid rule of thumb would be if you're in a popple stand and can see dirt not covered in micro greens, probably go look somewhere else (but for woodcock, you want low lands popples or alders even younger and thicker with black/dark brown mud exposed). Grouse don't feed on aspen catkins until they come out, which is much later in the season, often after the season; rather, they use those popple stands more for cover, and feed in what would be food within those stands. Two tracks covered in clover near by the aforementioned areas are also important.


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## Kevin Moeller (May 24, 2018)

If solo hunting, make sure you zig zag often and stop often. Stop moving for 30 seconds and start moving in a different direction when you do take your next step. The bird will flush while you are stopped or on that first step 80% of the time.

I would walk fairly quickly to pin the bird down. It will take a few steps out of your path and hope you walk by. The pause makes them nervous enough to flush and changing direction towards them makes them flush. If you walk too slowly, they will just run out of your way far enough to not flush. 

We kill a bunch of birds without a dog, but we usually have 3-4 people walking. We hunt with a dog also, but usually do more killing without the dog. Both ways are enjoyable for our group.


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

Kevin Moeller said:


> If solo hunting, make sure you zig zag often and stop often. Stop moving for 30 seconds and start moving in a different direction when you do take your next step. The bird will flush while you are stopped or on that first step 80% of the time.
> 
> I would walk fairly quickly to pin the bird down. It will take a few steps out of your path and hope you walk by. The pause makes them nervous enough to flush and changing direction towards them makes them flush. If you walk too slowly, they will just run out of your way far enough to not flush.
> 
> We kill a bunch of birds without a dog, but we usually have 3-4 people walking. We hunt with a dog also, but usually do more killing without the dog. Both ways are enjoyable for our group.


That actually does sound very similar to hunting rabbits. Walk too slow and they'll break up ahead out of range. Walk too fast without stopping and you'll move right by them without even knowing it. Stop for longer than you think you need to and it's like they get too anxious to sit still and the bust out right in front of you.



Lamarsh said:


> Things within areas like that, such as thornapples, witch hazel, dogwood, or other soft mast producing items will concentrate grouse, especially in the early to mid season, and in those time periods they are also focusing on alder catkins. Another item to look for is wintergreen, and a solid rule of thumb would be if you're in a popple stand and can see dirt not covered in micro greens, probably go look somewhere else (but for woodcock, you want low lands popples or alders even younger and thicker with black/dark brown mud exposed). Grouse don't feed on aspen catkins until they come out, which is much later in the season, often after the season; rather, they use those popple stands more for cover, and feed in what would be food within those stands. Two tracks covered in clover near by the aforementioned areas are also important.


That's a long list of things I don't know how to identify. Thank you for that! Can't learn to identify things if you don't know what to look for. I guess I'll be spending some time on ol' Google tonight!


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## C20chris (Dec 4, 2007)

yep. Yellow 3's. Once you get an "eye" for good cover you will be able to pick it out at 90 mph on 75. 

Maps - 10-20 y/o aspen stands ideally with something else bordering, pines, swamp, creek, oak, basically any kind of drastic transition for varying food/cover/roosting. 
Food - Find the food you find the grouse. 
Time of day - too early in the morning and you will be flushing birds out of the roost and will most likely never see them. After that I hunt until basically dark.
Speed - I vary my speed depending on my guess as to the likelihood of that "spot in the spot" to have birds. After a pile of flushes you start to get a feel for where a bird "should" be. 
Learn - When you flush one, take 30 seconds to look around and ask yourself "why" is this bird here. You will pick up on things. Other times you will just be left scratching and shaking your head...


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## Hunters Edge (May 15, 2009)

Without dogs it works better with 2 or 3 hunters walking in a line to drive and cover more ground. Unfortunately with added hunters and thick cover if not remembering safety, safety, safety it can be an accident waiting to happen, it definitely increases the possibility. Like was posted a zig zag walking and stopping works best when alone and without a dog. When you stop besides waiting for a flush take time to examine foliage and ground cover which was also posted. In early season I like to look for old stream beds, drainage areas and stands of Autumn olive not necessary in that order. During the summer and droughts low areas they have frequented for greens and water which creates habit. Also the low areas are where your going to find moist dirt and woodcock which was already posted. Look for spots of white wash that is the crap from woodcock it will give you an idea they are in the area and a place you may want to push again.

If you do kill a grouse or woodcock mark it well, at times they are difficult to find because they blend in well. If crippled the dog maybe of some help but if he ranges far out and pushes the birds out of range he maybe a hindrance. You won't know till you take him. Always check the birds crop to see what they are eating and use that knowledge to hunt areas of same forage. Another thing not mentioned is keep an eye out for grapevines it's another food source they like even late season when they are picking the dried or frozen ones left on the vine.

If you flush a grouse you maybe able to walk it up or get multiple flushes. Keep in mind they almost will do a sharp turn left or right after they get out of sight. So make sure you do the same but continue the same zig zag stopping routine. Also follow up your shots many times the bird could be hit but takes time to die because pellets did not break a wing.

Later in season start changing your pattern, cast to the different food sources already mentioned or posted in this thread. Keep an eye out for beechnut, and oak trees as well if they have mast. I also would not get out earlier that 9 or 10 am they roost in trees and they do not like water/dew also your not intruding or disrupting bow, bear, squirrel, youth hunters as much by that time of day. If they are out early they are in areas of low cover so they do not get wet like two tracks which were mentioned looking for grit but low cover. So you might as well sleep in because your gonna wear out some boot leather.

Another option you may want to bend the ear of the local DNR biologist and ask for local areas he may suggest or at least ask where to find stands of Autumn olive (where they were planted) in the early season they usually produce grouse if they have abundant fruit.

PS best of luck, just enjoy the experience and where you find them notice the type of vegetation and seek similar vegetation, be safe but have fun.


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## C20chris (Dec 4, 2007)

The other thing that helped me out when I was getting started was a diary. I would note the date, time, location, # birds flushed, weather, and hunt duration. Did this for the first 3-4 years. It helped a lot in subsequent years if I was going through a dry spell I could look back and have another spot to try that I forgot about. Also gave me an accurate flush rate so I knew which covers/days were the best statistically. 

Now that I think about it. Kinda wish I hadn't stopped doing that...


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

C20chris said:


> The other thing that helped me out when I was getting started was a diary. I would note the date, time, location, # birds flushed, weather, and hunt duration. Did this for the first 3-4 years. It helped a lot in subsequent years if I was going through a dry spell I could look back and have another spot to try that I forgot about. Also gave me an accurate flush rate so I knew which covers/days were the best statistically.
> 
> Now that I think about it. Kinda wish I hadn't stopped doing that...


I've been trying to keep up on exactly that and I just can't stick to it! I'm with you though, I bet it would really help if I could keep good notes. I've tried for new areas I've gone to, getting into walleye fishing, scouting for duck hunting which I'm also trying to do for the first time this year, fishing in new lakes I've never been to. I've been doing a lot of new things and doing a lot of old things in new places in the past ~6 years since getting out of college and moving around the state.


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## Chessieman (Dec 8, 2009)

I agree whole heartily what Kevin said. A couple other things, hit the Aspen near dirt roads a hour before dark or earlier if cloudy. They are there to get their grit. Second, though I am prejudice, take that Chessie. 🙄 He is a long lived dog and you train him for Partrich, he should catch on or at least scare a couple up.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Something to be aware of with mihunt for national forest is what you see is often not current. When you click on the spot you will see a year that may be 30-50 years ago and certainly not what is there now.

Mapping apps give you starting points. Often a day or two driving back roads until you find a good spot may prove necessary or at least better. Birds need overhead cover from young trees and usually some 30 year old Aspen stands nearby for winter food. They don't migrate much by season like deer.


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

Chessieman said:


> I agree whole heartily what Kevin said. A couple other things, hit the Aspen near dirt roads a hour before dark or earlier if cloudy. They are there to get their grit. Second, though I am prejudice, take that Chessie. 🙄 He is a long lived dog and you train him for Partrich, he should catch on or at least scare a couple up.


Chessies drool rule! I know there are a lot of serious bird hunters that say it's more about watching the dogs than about the birds, and as a not-so-serious hunter I completely relate.



shaffe48b said:


> Something to be aware of with mihunt for national forest is what you see is often not current. When you click on the spot you will see a year that may be 30-50 years ago and certainly not what is there now.


Good point. I deer hunt very near that screenshot I posted above and although I haven't spent a ton of time in that particular area, I don't remember it being predominantly aspen. Would areas that have been logged or burned in recent past likely be good areas to start?


And just a general question, again not trying to encroach on anyone's "honey holes": I am aware of the GEMS sites but I'm wondering if they get overcrowded or are they worth checking out? any downsides/


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Like they say logged 10 years or so. Even better if there are some older Aspen in the general 10-20 acre area.

Ps look for state land.


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## Kevin Moeller (May 24, 2018)

The best thing about the GEMS is that they will give you a good idea of to look for elsewhere.


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

Kevin Moeller said:


> The best thing about the GEMS is that they will give you a good idea of to look for elsewhere.


Too much pressure or just poorly managed?


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## Kevin Moeller (May 24, 2018)

KJW1992 said:


> Too much pressure or just poorly managed?


There are some birds there, but way too much pressure. But it is good to take a walk through one and see what type of cover you need to look for elsewhere. Shortens the learning curve a bit. Obviously the best thing would be to go out with a grouse hunter. I know before a take a step whether I'm going to move some birds just based on how the cover looks. When you find "it" the birds are always there or close enough nearby where I will find them.


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

Kevin Moeller said:


> There are some birds there, but way too much pressure. But it is good to take a walk through one and see what type of cover you need to look for elsewhere. Shortens the learning curve a bit. Obviously the best thing would be to go out with a grouse hunter. I know before a take a step whether I'm going to move some birds just based on how the cover looks. When you find "it" the birds are always there or close enough nearby where I will find them.


I hadn't thought of it that way, that's a really good point. Thanks!


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

Your best bet as a single hunter on foot is to hunt food. Autumn olive, Thornapple, cherry, highbush cranberry, oak trees/acorns, etc. Find where the preferred food sources are within the cover and just bounce from one food source to another. 

I'm only saying this because you are new to hunting. There have been a couple comments about hunting until dark or near dark. As the season progresses and cover drops along with overnight temps, flushing a grouse out of its roost is no good. So if you start pushing birds off their roosts late in the day be mindful to back out as you will be pushing them out of their preferred roosting locations to lesser locales that could open them up to predation/stress from the cold.


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## LWCClub (Oct 20, 2011)

augustus0603 said:


> Yellow 2's and 3's.
> 
> Weather permitting, I like to let birds move around and establish scent in the morning. Not a lot of guys in trees in aspen stands.
> 
> Walk a zig-zag pattern, stop and listen, then walk some more and you'll flush birds. Birds also like structure. Head for a pine tree or a log. Birds will hear you walking and generally stay close to something that is concealing them. Or you'll see them running away like a road runner before they take flight.


Yup, nailed it.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

KJW1992 said:


> Hi all...I have a Chessie that isn't trained for anything... I've always wanted to get into bird hunting


You've been drinking way to much "Upland Stylish "..."Steady to the Point"... "Broke to Retrieve" , "Pointing Dog Journal", more millennial $$$$.$$ than time horse-pucky" along with advice on the "proper" clothing, shotgun, chokes, length of pull for pheasants vs. woodcock vs. pats etc. etc. espoused by many here and on other "Upland" sites so to assure that you will have the most perfect Nirvana upland experience....a lot of BS.

I started shooting pheasants off the runways of Detroit-Metro Airport circa. 1960 (per another post) with my Sadie who actually came from the Detroit City Dog Pound and my buddies "Boy" who looked like a cross between a small English Setter and a large Brittany Spaniel and we killed a hell of a lot of roosters over those two dogs . If you had said to Bob : "Nice dog but not much style and that low tail....well..." he would have thought you just didn't know a damn thing about killing pheasants. . Our admittedly minimal training - abandoned fields filled with pheasants in back of a Drive-In Theatre at Warren and Wyoming Aves. in Dearborn...kinda' like pulling on the Muck Boots and heading out in the Spring with a map or two and looking for woodcock and hopefully new covers to hunting October.





KJW1992 said:


> Next question is: *How do I hunt without a dog?*


You do have a dog , a Chessie , which may not be one's first choice for a dedicated upland dog but a Chessie is most assuredly a "hunting" dog in every sense of the word. Why would you ever leave your Chessie behind and " ...*hunt without a dog..." *? Believe me your Chessie is more or can quickly become more adapt at finding live birds, wounded birds or dead birds tahan than you will ever be .

Look "KJW" - times have of course changed since I killed my first pheasant - 1959 - but the point I'm trying to make here is that bird hunting and all that it entails should be an enjoyable experience and a bonding - a true bonding - between you and your dog - regardless of breed, training and the like. Just go out and have an enjoyable experience with your canine buddy - believe me you will screw things up more as to birds and bird hunting than your dog ever will. Having watched bird hunting evolve from an enjoyable thing to do to a now "...meaningful life fulfilling experience as long as it's done in the proper way ..." over the decades I can argue that technique has given way to technology and equipment ( be it shotguns, dog breeds, clothing) has far surpassed the experience.

Just go out and traipse around in Michigan's wonderful October woods and fields with your Chessie and your shotgun and have a good and memorable time - in the end THAT is what upland life is or should be all about. Hope this helps, good luck come this October.






Hunters Edge said:


> If you do kill a grouse or woodcock mark it well,


Most definitely but a further tip for retrieving a bird from an "iffy" whatever ... hang your hat on a tree limb or bush exactly from where you shot and then walk directly to the marked spot where you last saw the bird drop and then stand still and let your dog do what it's supposed to do - find the dead bird or run down the wounded bird. Do not stomp around in the belief that you're better at this than your dog.

9mm Hi-Power


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

Wow. There's a lot to unpack here. I'm sure you have the best intentions but admittedly you're kinda hitting a nerve so I'm going to address some things, respectfully, because I get what you're saying but you've got me all wrong.



9mm Hi-Power said:


> You've been drinking way to much "Upland Stylish "..."Steady to the Point"... "Broke to Retrieve" , "Pointing Dog Journal", more millennial $$$$.$$ than time horse-pucky" along with advice on the "proper" clothing, shotgun, chokes, length of pull for pheasants vs. woodcock vs. pats etc. etc. espoused by many here and on other "Upland" sites so to assure that you will have the most perfect Nirvana upland experience....a lot of BS.


Nope. I just want to hunt upland birds but don't know much about them. I have too many hobbies (it's in my character so I don't fight it) which means after time dedicated to work, an upcoming wedding, the woes of homeownership, and other adult responsibilities, I don't have enough time to do everything I want to do. Add on top of that the fact that I have to drive at least 2 hours north to get to reasonable grouse habitat, I have to be smart on weeknights about how I'll spend my weekends. I'm not trying to spend a bunch of $$$$.$$ to save time, I'm just trying to use what time I have wisely to get the most out of it. I like long walks in the woods as much as anyone but I don't want to drive 2 hours each way to hunt grouse without even knowing what to look for when I get there.



9mm Hi-Power said:


> I started shooting off the runways of Detroit-Metro Airport circa. 1960 (per another post) with my Sadie who actually came from the Detroit City Dog Pound and my buddies "Boy" who looked like a cross between a small English Setter and a large Brittany Spaniel and we killed a hell of a lot of roosters over those two dogs . If you had said to Bob : "Nice dog but not much style and that low tail....well..." he would have thought you just didn't know a damn thing about killing pheasants. . Our admittedly minimal training - abandoned fields filled with pheasants in back of a Drive-In Theatre at Warren and Wyoming Aves. in Dearborn...kinda' like pulling on the Muck Boots and heading out in the Spring with a map or two and looking for woodcock and hopefully new covers to hunting October.


Sounds like a blast, wish I had that opportunity. I've dreamt of hunting pheasants as long as I can remember, and my grandpa used to shoot them on his walk home from school (after he brought his shotgun on the bus to school and stored it in his locker during the day). Unfortunately we don't have pheasants like the good ol' days and the pheasant hunting tradition was not passed down beyond my grandpa. I finally got to "hunt" them this past weekend for my bachelor party at a farm which was better than nothing, but i digress.

I wouldn't have said that to Bob. If the goal is getting birds and the dog minds and helps get birds, I'd say that's a good dog. But it's not _my _dog. My dog is an *******. (I say that affectionately)



9mm Hi-Power said:


> You do have a dog , a Chessie , which may not be one's first choice for a dedicated upland dog but a Chessie is most assuredly a "hunting" dog in every sense of the word. Why would you ever leave your Chessie behind and " ...*hunt without a dog..." *? Believe me your Chessie is more or can quickly become more adapt at finding live birds, wounded birds or dead birds tahan than you will ever be .


I originally typed a long drawn-out response to this part but to put it simply: sometimes I just want to be by myself and focus on the woods around me rather than focusing on the dog. Especially when I'm learning something new. That's why she won't be going duck hunting with me the first time either. <gasp>



9mm Hi-Power said:


> Having watched bird hunting evolve from an enjoyable thing to do to a now "...meaningful life fulfilling experience as long as it's done in the proper way ..." over the decades I can argue that technique has given way to technology and equipment ( be it shotguns, dog breeds, clothing) has far surpassed the experience.


I don't know what bird hunting is or was, but it seems to me that the "proper way" is subjective and is different for each individual based on what they want. I'd love nothing more than to find that Ruger is a natural upland dog and bond with her over it; I almost cried when she flushed my first rabbit, I was so happy. But, sometimes I just want to go without her. It kinda sounds like you want me to hunt YOUR "proper way."

Bottom line is I'm looking at about a 2.5 hour drive north to the Manistee National Forest to hunt a bird I've hardly ever seen but only heard, and another bird that I've just plain never seen. I just want to be smart about where I look for them. I don't care about what the "proper" way to hunt them is. Dog or no dog. double barrel or pump. O/U or SxS. 20 gauge or 28 gauge. Pointer, setter, or retriever. Don't care at all. I just want to learn about the birds, learn about their cover, use the tools I have available to me to use my time wisely, and with any luck get a bird in hand. I'd _love_ to spend all my time traipsing through every wooded lot in Michigan and figure it out from scratch, but that's just not feasible for me.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

PM sent.
I'll get you on track to your newest adventures


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

KJW1992 said:


> But it's not _my _dog. My dog is an *****. (I say that affectionately).


Your dog is an "*****" , because of you and for no other reason.





KJW1992 said:


> I originally typed a long drawn-out response to this part but to put it simply: sometimes I just want to be by myself and focus on the woods around me


Being alone in the woods and " finding oneself" is fine but don't tie it into pat hunting . My suggestion - Buy a copy of Henry David Thoreau's "Walden Woods" , go into the woods, sit down in a sunny glen under towering pines and then "focus" on what's important to you as reflected in "WW's" and then seek yourself. There's nothing inherently wrong with doing this and I can honestly applaud people who do it and it can undoubtedly be a truly rewarding and insightful experience but don't ever think it has much of anything to do with pat hunting.***

Why not be flexible and incorporate your "reflective life fulfilling moments in the outdoors " along with but not removed from your dog. Buy a copy of Thoreau's book or E. Hemingway's "Green Hills of Africa" , or whatever title you choose , roam around with your dog and a shotgun looking for pats. Then at some point pull down a two-track to a little creek, park , bring out your lunch , share it with your dog, then pull out whatever book you've brought with you, slump down next to a stump and read it - all the while scratching your dog's head. It's not about only this or only that but rather about sharing and bringing important parts of your life together as a cohesive whole. Don't be so rigid.





KJW1992 said:


> I don't know what bird hunting is or was, but it seems to me that the "proper way" is subjective and is different for each individual based on what they want.


Don't ever think that responses to your internet post will always be specifically attuned to your specific questions. Your original post is not much more than a gateway for others to reply no matter how tangentially.



KJW1992 said:


> "... but to put it simply: sometimes I just want to be by myself...I'd love nothing more than to find that Ruger is a natural upland dog and bond with her over it."


Do you not see the glaring inconsistencies with these two quotes of your's - " I want to be by myself..." but "..."I'd love nothing more ( than too ) ... bond with her." If you want to be by yourself - in the woods - please explain how you're ever going to form a bond with your bird dog ?

9mm Hi-Power

** *The often used "outdoor writing" epiphany when "...I found the true meaning of life on a misty morning while fishing on the Holy Waters of the Au Sable River when a big Brown slurped down my hand-tied Adams...there was a sudden bond ... long unrealized and long denied ...hunter and prey... and I came to finally discover...". is nothing more than literary garbage.


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> Your dog is an "*****" , because of you and for no other reason.


You're absolutely right. I've never claimed otherwise and never will.



9mm Hi-Power said:


> Being alone in the woods and " finding oneself" is fine but don't tie it into pat hunting


I never said anything about "finding oneself" so I'm not tying it into anything.



9mm Hi-Power said:


> but don't ever think it has much of anything to do with pat hunting


I don't think that, you're the one who brought it up and I'm not really sure why.



9mm Hi-Power said:


> Why not be flexible


I am flexible. I plan on taking my dog with me at least some of the time and going alone some of the time. That is more flexible than you telling me exactly how I should do it.



9mm Hi-Power said:


> incorporate your "reflective life fulfilling moments" along with but not removed from your dog


I don't know what "reflective life fulfilling moments" are or what it has to do with me.



9mm Hi-Power said:


> Don't be so rigid.


I don't understand how you think I'm the rigid one in this conversation. You're basically telling me that there's a right way to approach grouse hunting and if I do it differently I'm wrong. _That _is rigid.



9mm Hi-Power said:


> Do you not see the glaring inconsistencies with these two quotes of your's - " I want to be by myself..." but "..."I'd love nothing more...and bond with her." If you want to be by yourself - in the woods - please explain how you're ever going to form a bond with your bird dog ?


When you edit the quotes, it does kinda sound contradictory, but there's a really significant word that you left out when you misquoted me... "*sometimes* I just want to be by myself and focus on the woods around me rather than focusing on the dog". 
and 
"I'd love nothing more than to find that Ruger is a natural upland dog and bond with her over it; I almost cried when she flushed my first rabbit, I was so happy. But, *sometimes* I just want to go without her." 
as in... I choose to be "flexible" instead of "rigid" when it comes to whether or not I take my dog with me places. And if I _do _find that Ruger is a natural upland dog, maybe I _will_ always take her in the future. But for now, I'm being "flexible" and not counting on it. Rather than "rigid" and trying to make a silk purse of a sow's ear.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

If you took that dog you might stir up a few more birds but they'd also likely be bumped in ways that made them harder shots. It really doesn't matter. Try it one way and try it the other. If you want to go out an have fun and learn about a new animal, grouse hunting is mostly shooting into the trees anyways. Last year I killed a quite massive tree limb a 7 footer I shot clean off a tree from five yards.


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

Why even respond to that? 

He obviously was trolling.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

I'm shocked the codger patrol didn't pile on to be honest. Must have given up.


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

shaffe48b said:


> I'm shocked the codger patrol didn't pile on to be honest. Must have given up.


Ha is there a story here? I'm new to this sub-forum so I haven't figured out the dynamic just yet.

It's interesting how drastically different the attitudes and participation are among the different sub-forums.

And yeah I'm prone to getting caught in the stupid exchanges. There's a reason I'm not on Facebook anymore


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

KJW1992 said:


> That's a long list of things I don't know how to identify. Thank you for that! Can't learn to identify things if you don't know what to look for. I guess I'll be spending some time on ol' Google tonight!


Anytime Kevin. A lot of grouse hunting involves plant ID and awareness, which is part of the fun of it. While there is no substitute for time in the woods, you are right in heading to Google for plant ID. You can also give this site a try, it has a lot of info Search - Michigan Flora 

Best of luck this fall.


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## wirehair (Oct 16, 2007)

Welcome to Bird Hunting. I have been through dozens of "sportsman" hobbies but once I spent an rainy October day in the woods with a couple mild mannered EP's I never looked back. Took me a couple years to figure out the dog thing and get all the right camping and hunting gear but I have been settled in for the last 20 years or so. I always laughed at some of the bird hunting literature. Bird Hunting is work. I find there is no time for this gibberish when you have an off leash animal running wild. Yes take notice of food sources and terrain but I find little time to contemplate or bond with nature with a dog loose. I hope you enjoy the journey. You will figure it out. I only suggest you carry a good compass and a bic lighter at a minimum whenever you head into the woods. An a good thing to let someone know where you are heading out.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Variety adjacent and or scattered through popples/aspen helps.
Old trails , some new ones can help too, have sunlight encouraging berry canes ,greenbrier , and grasses ect.
Good loam under aspens , like good black morel sites host greens previously mentioned that help diversity of diet by season. Whitepines offer roosting. More so in foul weather. Nothing wrong with some around a grove of aspen...
One grove I found pats in year round had a well used drumming log. Seldom without a bird within fifty yards.
Logging ended that consistently locating birds. But logging starts a new succession too.
Low ground beyond had rich earth in a swath about twenty yards by a hundred yards. When woodcock were migrating their "whitewash" was highly evident under the low cover.
Miles away on low ground the soil was damp enough , woodcock could be flushed during migration.
An oak predominant site , but the moist earth along a road , (with a river the other side of the road) gave them a place to lounge and feed / take a break. The river side was drier (I know , that seems odd) , more exposed to sunlight and just didn't hold those birds for thier own reasons /preferences.

There is a riverine area in the location you're eyeing.
During migrations it should be a corridor worth hitting for a hunt a week during likely migration times.
There are cedars , pines,oaks, brushy areas ,quite a mix. Places to use during weather changes.

An old timer flushing many woodcock along a dirt road I bowhunted near , equated the road to a river from the birds view from the sky at night.
Of course the cover they were lounging in and the soil beneath mattered too. But which did they find first?


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

A little off topic, but I haven't seen any pats this year while bear baiting, which is unusual. Are they at some kind of low point this year?


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

Tilden Hunter said:


> A little off topic, but I haven't seen any pats this year while bear baiting, which is unusual. Are they at some kind of low point this year?


Can't answer that but I gotta ask, pat is so it for partridge right? But grouse isn't technically a partridge? But colloquially the name pat is used for grouse in Michigan?


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

KJW1992 said:


> Can't answer that but I gotta ask, pat is so it for partridge right? But grouse isn't technically a partridge? But colloquially the name pat is used for grouse in Michigan?


Please forgive me. That was my first experimental use of "pat" for grouse in the online world.


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## KJW1992 (Apr 23, 2019)

Tilden Hunter said:


> Please forgive me. That was my first experimental use of "pat" for grouse in the online world.


Oh no I'm honestly asking, I really don't know. That's just what I've pieced together.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

KJW1992 said:


> Oh no I'm honestly asking, I really don't know. That's just what I've pieced together.


Only use the term "Pats" from now on.
If someone does not know what you are referring to , you're traveling in the wrong circles.
Mud daubed , briar torn , crabapple / hawthorn stabbed cheeked , hair missing in patches men and dogs are who you want to find. No , they won't answer much and have a wild glint in thier eyes while thier hot little brains constantly review inventory's of varied coveys and coverts while deducting kills and noting misses.

Here's some more help with some common terms.
Grouse Hunting Glossary | Along This Ruff Road (wordpress.com)


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

Lol pats are what people sluice off the ground while road hunting, grouse are hunted in the woods and on the wing!

I was just in the woods this evening a fair ways south of the town your profile says you live in. I found 2 broods in 1 hour and also saw a brood of 6 on the road.


Tilden Hunter said:


> A little off topic, but I haven't seen any pats this year while bear baiting, which is unusual. Are they at some kind of low point this year?


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

Tilden Hunter said:


> A little off topic, but I haven't seen any pats this year while bear baiting, which is unusual. Are they at some kind of low point this year?


I haven't done any scouting, but as I watched this June and a lot of the summer be very wet, I wondered what kind of impact it may have had on this year's broods of youngins....


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Lamarsh said:


> I haven't done any scouting, but as I watched this June and a lot of the summer be very wet, I wondered what kind of impact it may have had on this year's broods of youngins....


March to May was like a drought for most of the state. Nesting season should have been fantastic in most regions. I was worried about a lack of water for the young birds at one point. When the rain finally came we got alot.


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