# The latest from PA



## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Happy Hunter said:


> No, the facts are not different than what you see in the woods. If the harvest data shows we harvest 85% of our 2.5 + buck, we are guanteed we will not see many 3.5+ buck. We are also guaranteed that those 3.5's on average will be smaller than the average 3.5 without AR, because most of those 3.5's will be the 2.5's that still weren't AR legal.
> 
> In DMU 118 the support for AR did not increase from the original vote to the final vote to continue AR. That tells me the majority of the huntes were not impressed with the results of AR. You can manage your property based on your perceptions , but they state has to manage the herd based on the statistics and that is what I use.


Imagine a President getting a 58% or higher of the vote. . . that would be a miracle. . getting 66% of anyone to agree on anything is pretty tough to do. :lol: And if they wanted an accurate count, why didn't they send out a survey in the final year? And counting everything that was an undecided vote as no?? Oh yeah, and I never got one???

Thanks for letting me manage my property the way I want. . . I was getting worried I would have to scrap everything on all 500 acres I hunt. :lol:


----------



## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

omega58 said:


> Imagine a President getting a 58% or higher of the vote. . . that would be a miracle. . getting 66% of anyone to agree on anything is pretty tough to do. :lol: And if they wanted an accurate count, why didn't they send out a survey in the final year? And counting everything that was an undecided vote as no?? Oh yeah, and I never got one???
> 
> . :lol:



That does not explain why the vote after 4 years of AR in DMU 118 was the same as it was before AR's were implemented . When you read ED Spins ,spin on the results it sounds like AR's were a smashing success , but the votes from the hunters in the survey show they were not impressed. 

The results from PA have not come close to what was predicted by Alt and I don't think they would get support from 50% of the hunters to continue Ar's in PA. The archers are reporting a significant decrease in the number of bucks sighted and although there are more 2.5 buck than there would be without AR's the total number of legal buck is still much lower than before AR's even though Alt said the buck harvest would return to normal after the first year of Ar's. We are paying a huge price for a few bigger buck and we still have had no herd reduction, just a 30% drop in the buck harvest. That is not what we were told would happen.


----------



## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Hey, whatever you do, just always be a   Happy Hunter.   
"DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY" come on, you know you want to sing it. :lol: 

It's time for me and the dog to get packin' for the next few days in the woods. . . two days of bird hunting and three days of deer hunting. . .that's what it is all about baby!!! :woohoo1: :woohoo1: :woohoo1:


----------



## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

Good luck and happy hunting. I'll be happy if I wake up in the morning and make it to my stand,even though I have no expectatation of seeing a legal buck. :lol:


----------



## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

I don't think you people are reading what HH is saying.
Take some time and read what he wrote, if his facts are accurate I see the flaw.

You are loosing the 2.5 year class deer at a faster rate than before, which will effect the 3.5 yr class carry over.
Those 3.5 are deet that did not meet the AR's as 2.5 year olds and maynot at 3.5.
So you end up with less quality than before AR's

If Ar's work then you should see a more even spread on kills.
3.5 year old deer that cannot be seen do nobody any good.

Are you people saying the positive results can't be seen or killed?
No way.......explain How I killed a 4.5 year old Doe in a heavily hunted area then.
I don't buy the spooky buck theories........


----------



## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

You did a very good job of summarizing what I have been posting. In a heavily hunted herd like in PA or MI , AR shifts the hunting pressure from the 1.5 age class to the 2.5+ age class. Larger racked buck are easier to identify then the 1.5 ,smaller racked buck,so the harvest rate for older larger racked buck increases and the majority of the 2.5+ buck that do survive will be the inferior bucks with small ,non-Ar legal racks. But,since they do survive they become the dominant breeding 3.5 bucks due to age and body size , not rack size.

The clincher is there has never been a study that shows that AR increases the rack size of the average 2.5 + buck.


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Happy Hunter said:


> Please note we were discussing the survival rate of 2.5 buck. Obviously the survival rate for 1.5 buck increasd due to AR, but the survival rate of 2.5 buck decreased.
> 
> Do you believe it is a good thing that the survival rate for 2.5 buck decreased from 25% pre-AR to 15% with AR? Wouldn't it been much better if the survival rate remained the same?


DOH - I wonder why? Could it be more hunters are harvisting 2.5 bucks? Instead of taking the babies? Certainly it is, a little common sense would tell you that, your crunching numbers only and not looking at the big picture and long term cause and affect  - and I also think its wonderful that a percentage of those are seeing their way into 3.5 year range - 

And guess what, I think you will see an increase in the 2.5 over the years as more hunters will start holding out for 3.5 + age class  what a wonderfull thing....


ferg....


----------



## campblujay (Jan 21, 2004)

My cousins hunt in central pa on a family farm, and after several years of reduced buck harvests they are about to give up archery. Due to the herd reductions efforts thier sighting of deer is way down, and probably will be in rifle season. I do not plan on making a trip back home for hunting this year, not after the poor season last year. 

61,000 less buck taken since AR/HR is nothing to sneeze at. If the buck harvest dropped that much here, there would be just as much unrest as Pa is experiencing. 

This is the first year no buck were taken in archery on thier Pa. farm. Sightings were way down and nobody has taken any bigger deer into a processor that the family knows of. Just less taken overall.

According to the cousins this was the worst year there that they can remember. And they have been hunting about 25 years.


----------



## Leon2 (Mar 8, 2004)

HH and others...

Let's not get excited yet about the PA results. I'd be worried if you were throwing around those numbers at the end of five years. Let's wait and see what happens at the end of this year and next year, before we throw the penalty flag. Anyone with an ounce of deer management sense knows you can't look at one year's data and make some long-term conclusion like is going on in this thread. I'll bet my farm, things will work out and hunters will be happy hunters in PA before long, given Dr. Alt's reputation for success and the plan he has in place.

Leon2


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

campblujay said:


> This is the first year no buck were taken in archery on thier Pa. farm. Sightings were way down and nobody has taken any bigger deer into a processor that the family knows of. Just less taken overall.
> 
> According to the cousins this was the worst year there that they can remember. And they have been hunting about 25 years.



Has anything been done on this farm (in 25 years) to help improve habitat to draw deer into it? Or have the neighbors implemented an overall plan and have out drawn the heard away from used up habitat? Deer are going where the food, cover and water are, they are not stationary beings.

ferg....


----------



## mecheadSR (Dec 18, 2003)

Happy Hunter way to stick to your guns, I'll tell you if it was not for hunters like you debating these guy's about this issue of qdm I would vomit reading all this nice reading material about how great qdm is, you hunters who hunt your farm's with your food plots and your habitat improvement and so on need to come north to the state land and show me were antler restrictions has helped the herd up here. I scout hard and hunt hard and continue to see squat year after year in this area I hunt. Keep the same number of doe permits but go to a 1 buck system to help balance the herd, why do we need to shoot more than 1 buck any way when the buck to doe ratio is so out of whack. Maybe I'm way out of line but I just felt like venting a little after Another poor season so far.


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

mecheadSR said:


> Keep the same number of doe permits but go to a 1 buck system to help balance the herd, why do we need to shoot more than 1 buck any way when the buck to doe ratio is so out of whack. Maybe I'm way out of line but I just felt like venting a little after Another poor season so far.


MecheadSr - the season is only 1 day old (gun season anyway) but - that being said, I couldn't agree more with your statement - that would be a huge move by the DNR/NRC in the correct direction. Your not out of line at all - a one buck per season/year - would do wonders for balancing our heard.

Right on!!!

ferg....

Oh yea - and we hunt state land SW of Hubbard lake - and take deer regularly out of there


----------



## mecheadSR (Dec 18, 2003)

Ferg, thanks for the vote of confidence, I do appreciate it.  Let me clarify though that I start hunting Oct 1st until the end of the year, rifle hunting, muzzleloading and some late season archery. I've always hunted hard so to see the herd really being hurt in some areas and just not seeing quality bucks like I used to just makes me a little upset for the time and money I put into this sport.


----------



## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

support a one buck system, like back in 'the day' - and I was being a little 'flip' about the gun season - I think the frustration you feel is common around NE Mi - especally in 'the zone' and the areas around it - 

I sure do wish they would go back to the single buck - would make more sense to me than AR's - and make it a 'buck' is a 'buck' none of this less than 3" is anterless *****  

ferg....
buck and doe, no more atlerless.....


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Looking forward to my 12th season hunting public land in PA!!

The public land hunting in PA is awesome and in the 35 year history of our camp the hunting has never been better than in the past 5 years. Our last 5 year average, which includes 2 years of AR's, and many of the past years of aggressive doe harvest and herd reductions, have been our finest years on my counts.....
# of bucks per hunters in camp
# of points per buck
# of bucks
# of deer per hunter
# of deer
# of buck sightings
Dressed weight increase by age class

I wouldn't trade opening day of PA public land rifle hunting for an entire week of MI rifle season on my own private land, or the surrounding public land. No comparison. Anyone of you guys would love hunting in PA and if you ever have the chance...GO! You will find and incredible differance.

Less than 2 weeks....can't wait!! The major differances....not the AR's! Try these:

*NO Bait
*NO ATV's wandering aimlessly through the public land
*NO blinds, shacks, and "this is my spot" areas throughout the woods 
*Many closed forestry roads that block large tracts of no vehicle access
*1 Buck license...both seasons combined

The AR's are just the icing on the cake! Can't wait for another great year!!


----------



## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

NorthJeff said:


> Try these:
> 
> *NO Bait
> *NO ATV's wandering aimlessly through the public land
> ...


Sounds like a terrific hunt. Have a great one!


----------



## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

Number of deer on the *increase* in St. Clair county, per DNR quote today, in person.
Most deer are 1 1/2 -2.5

Right now St Clair county needs more deer heads to be aged, so if you get one there take it in.

Also talked about 3.5 year old deer and older, bottom line is they are out there.


----------



## quicksilver (Oct 23, 2002)

If things are all great in PA, spend your money there north jeff. I don't know why anyone would hunt in this state of michigan if its so poor. :lol:


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

"If things are all great in PA, spend your money there north jeff. I don't know why anyone would hunt in this state of michigan if its so poor."

I do spend my money there, and have for 11 years in a row  

I also have spent my money in WI the last 3 years..KY, AL, and IN and have hunted whitetails in 2-4 states for 13 years now. Doesn't mean I hate MI hunting, just that I can appreciate and recognize quality and like pursuing it.

But, I live in MI and both my wife and I work here. I'll hunt wherever I can....I just lower my expectations in MI. At the same time, in 11 years of hunting in PA I've averaged about a 1/2 day to get my buck 8 years and average less than a day a year of hunting so the season is just too short to enjoy...I like hunting a full 3 months+ if possible and sometimes there are just not enough tags in 1 or 2 states to go around. 

I'm one of those guys that love hunting anywhere I'm in a treestand, but I'm not blinded by tradition enough to not admit that there is a lot better hunting in most other states around us, and PA public land is one of those places. Doesn't at all mean I don't like MI hunting, just that it's near the bottom of the barrel for management and it's easy to recognize if you get out a bit. 

Think of it as a you have a fishing pond in your backyard. You like fishing there, it's conveniant, but you are limited to size, quality, and the entire fishing experience by just fishing in that pond, so you travel elsewhere for your real fishing adventures. That's what I do, I love living in MI, like the affordability of the land, like my job, my wife likes her job, like our neighborhood, like our small hometown and although the management of our deer herd and expectations of a quality hunt are somewhat limited, it doesn't mean you can't have a good time in the woods. I just travel elsewhere for my real whitetail hunting and PA happens to be one of those places and just as a simple tip, for a cheap hunt, if you ever get a chance for their rifle opener you would be pleasantly shocked at the differances.

Just a simple tip and I like telling my friends and other hunters about a good thing you can partake in too that may even further enhance your passion for hunting and whitetail deer....It's just nice to share good experiences


----------



## mecheadSR (Dec 18, 2003)

North Jeff I also could'nt agree more with you about getting out of state to do a little hunting as I just got back from out west and it is really great when you can see deer in there natural state with no hunting pressure, no baiting, big bucks chasing doe's all over the place, tending grunts, snort wheezes and so on and so on. But, I would still like to see some things done in Lansing to help Michigan's herd being that most of my hunting occurs on state land in northern central michigan. If our buck to doe ratio is so out of whack somebody has to stand up and say 1 buck per year period until this thing get's under control, now some people our gonna hate that Idea but I feel it is necessary for Michigan's deer herd.


----------

