# Electrical Question....



## SpareTime (Feb 2, 2003)

Being the homeowner, am I allowed to remove the old fuse panel from my house and relpace it with a breaker box?
If I do this, is DTE gonna get pissed at me for removing the little tag off my meter box so I can pull the meter to kill the power to my house so I can do the work?
Thanks for any info you may have.

If anyone would wants to put in a bid on doing the service upgrade, I am more than willing to consider that also.


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## icecathound (Feb 16, 2006)

if you call them they will probably come out and pull the meter and then put it back when you are finished with it. that is how i did it with consumers energy when i did mine a few years ago


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

SpareTime said:


> Being the homeowner, am I allowed to remove the old fuse panel from my house and relpace it with a breaker box?


Don't do it!
You need to have the utility pull the meter socket. Then the service upgrade is done. I would replace everything on your side of the meter base. Then the electrical inspector needs to O.K. the work. Then the utility comes back out and replaces the meter socket.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I did it for a guy but not even a week later a tornado came through and ripped his weather head and meter off the side of his house. They didn't notice that cut in the tag wire :lol::lol::lol:


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

The reason that you get the electrical inspector & the utility involved is to relieve the installer of liability. If a fire or electrocution occurs, the liability is on the back of the utility and/or the electrical inspector. If the work isn't inspected, good luck trying to get your homeowners insurance carrier to cover damages.


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

It depends on the area you live in.

You can do it yourself.

But you have to make sure that the wires feeding from the line to the meter are appropriately sized for the service you install.

You will need to pull a homeowner permit.

You will need to run a new ground, new ground rods.

You will be spending $$$$ even if you do it yourself. 

PM Sullyxh, he'll be able to help you out if the drive isn't too far for him. He showed me how to pull my meter, it's no big deal, but I still woudln't try it without being showed how first.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Very good point Jump, but is there a record of what is there? fuses? breakers?


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## SpareTime (Feb 2, 2003)

FREEPOP said:


> I did it for a guy but not even a week later a tornado came through and ripped his weather head and meter off the side of his house. They didn't notice that cut in the tag wire :lol::lol::lol:


 
Maybe I shouldn't do it....I don't wanna be the cause of a tornado:yikes:


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## SpareTime (Feb 2, 2003)

How does the electric co. know if it has been inspected? Do I have to prove it with a "passed" slip from the inspector?


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## SpareTime (Feb 2, 2003)

Jumpshootin' said:


> Don't do it!
> You need to have the utility pull the meter socket. Then the service upgrade is done. I would replace everything on your side of the meter base. Then the electrical inspector needs to O.K. the work. Then the utility comes back out and replaces the meter socket.


 
Hey Jump-

First you told me not to do it, then you told me how to do it......are you trying to confuse me???:evil:


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

SpareTime said:


> How does the electric co. know if it has been inspected? Do I have to prove it with a "passed" slip from the inspector?


Yes. The inspector will place a sticker on the meter enclosure.



SpareTime said:


> Hey Jump-
> 
> First you told me not to do it, then you told me how to do it......are you trying to confuse me???


You can do the work yourself. Just don't pull that tag off of the meter base enclosure.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

To pull the meter you just have to remove the ring around the outside, grasp with both hands on the glass and yank, hard and swift. I'd do it when it's dry, with some rubber boots and rubber gloves. 

If you're upgrading to a different amperage, the electric company will have to install a different meter to correspond. ie. you can't get blood from a turnip


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## tmanmi (Sep 20, 2005)

I believe if you ask the utility to pull the meter, they won't put it back in until the work has passed inspection. I just had a panel replaced in a rental unit I own. Upgraded from the old screw in bus type on a 100amp panel. Stayed with 100amp, the electrician charged $400 for the panel, breakers and labor. This was for 8 110 circuits and 3 220's. Fortunately the meter didn't need to be pulled because it has a generator transferred switch that is service entrance rated that will disconnect from the utility.

That being said, when I lived at the property and before I had the proper transfer switch installed I used to pull the meter every time there was a power failure. I would then back feed my generator through the welder outlet. They never gave me any crap about the seal being broke on the meter. It was Consumers not DTE though.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

tmanmi said:


> Stayed with 100amp, ..... This was for 8 110 circuits and 3 220's.


Question

8 - 110 circuits @ 20 amps = 160 amps

3 - 220 circuits


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## tmanmi (Sep 20, 2005)

FREEPOP said:


> Question
> 
> 8 - 110 circuits @ 20 amps = 160 amps
> 
> 3 - 220 circuits


Beats me, maybe that's why it was so cheap. There is a double 20 amp for the well, one for the electric stove and one electric dryer, seems like either the stove of the dryer might be a 30. There might be only 6 110's and some of them aren't 20's. I get your drift, I will look tonight. I'm just a slum lord and the place hasn't burned down yet. I just cringe when I look at the wiring, some of it the cloth wrapped stuff.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

FREEPOP said:


> Question
> 
> 8 - 110 circuits @ 20 amps = 160 amps
> 
> 3 - 220 circuits


Nothing unusual about that really. Not like you're gonna be using EVERY circuit at once. 100 amp Load Centers have 20 circuits available. 200 amp has 40. Sizing is done for 'normal' usage not "full" usage. Don't recall what NEC says but I believe it to be 50% demand on residential. Regardless of anything else your main circuit breaker will be rated for 100 amps.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Even at 50% if the 220 were just 20 amp then he'd be at 220 amps.

I agree not everything will be used at the same time to maximum draw, but it seemed strange to me. I've done lots of wiring, not really up on code though.

I agree on the main being 100 amp


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

Most of the time there won't even be a 50% usage of circuits. And even then the actual draw would be less. 
Example: A microwave oven on a 20amp small appliance branch circuit isn't drawing anywhere near 20amps when in use.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

A microwave in no way compares with something like a well pump, compressor, air conditioner, fridge, garage door opener etc. as the current required to start the motor is much higher than while running. 

I just looked at the one behind me and it's a 10 amp.


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

i have no clue how they figure it, but right now, my 200 amp panel has a 100 amp breaker in it, so i guess you could run 20 100 amp breakers. 

i think that's why there's a breaker there  So it'll pop before you burn any of the copper out of either the panel, or the run from the panel to the meter


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

You could have a 500 amp panel with a 100 amp breaker in it. IF your meter is only a 100 amp, you're only going to get 100 amps, that's the deciding factor. I would think that your panel should have two 100 amp breakers if it is a true 200 amp service.


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

nonono....the 100 amp breaker is to my garage, i've still got the 200 amp breaker for the main.

What I'm saying is that it has very little to do with the number of "slots".


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Slots is panel dependent, would be my guess.

12 guage wire is good for 20 amps, thus the connection there


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## MSUICEMAN (Jan 9, 2002)

when i moved into my new house the wire tab was broken but present on my meter... should I do something about it or just say ta heck with it?


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## jakeo (Sep 14, 2004)

First off.......the meter does NOT determine the amperage going to the panel.........you can pull the meter and put in jumpers and still get the same amount of voltage.......not amperage.. When you change a service, you first shut off the main breaker or pull the fuse block. Then you pull the meter before you cut the drops. Cutting the drops is very easy if you know what you are doing. Its BEST to have the ELECTRIC COMP do it but theres been times Ive had to do It. You then install the properly rated service cable and enterance head and hook it up to the NEW metersocket. From the metersocket you run your properly rated cable to the NEW panel. 
The amps needed is determined by the load factor and NOT by the amount of circuits. A 220 30Amp line does draw 30amps but its not running 24/7 so you use the demand factor. 
I guess what im saying is do yourself a favor by hiring a LICENCED contractor who can do it the proper way. Its not just like plumbing.......Ive never heard of a person dieing because their house flooded!

BTW........hooking up the generator can be VERY DANGEROUS if you do not seperate the neutrals.........when power is re-energized........the backload on that neutral can kill someone.

Ive been doing this 28 years and have seen alot of good work done by homeowners but more SHOTTY dangerous work.

DONT TRY TO SKIMP ON THIS PLEASE! and NO im not looking for work.
Any questions....pm me but not about changing a service.......leave that to the pros.


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## SpareTime (Feb 2, 2003)

Yeah...i think I will leave this job for the pros...thanks


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

jakeo said:


> First off.......the meter does NOT determine the amperage going to the panel.........you can pull the meter and put in jumpers and still get the same amount of voltage.......not amperage.. When you change a service, you first shut off the main breaker or pull the fuse block. Then you pull the meter before you cut the drops. Cutting the drops is very easy if you know what you are doing. Its BEST to have the ELECTRIC COMP do it but theres been times Ive had to do It. You then install the properly rated service cable and enterance head and hook it up to the NEW metersocket. From the metersocket you run your properly rated cable to the NEW panel.
> The amps needed is determined by the load factor and NOT by the amount of circuits. A 220 30Amp line does draw 30amps but its not running 24/7 so you use the demand factor.
> I guess what im saying is do yourself a favor by hiring a LICENCED contractor who can do it the proper way. Its not just like plumbing.......Ive never heard of a person dieing because their house flooded!
> 
> ...


Very well put. This post has turned into one of amateurs giving other amateurs their best-guess advice, and questioning the answer(s) of journeymen electricians who have done this more than a few times.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Jumpshootin' said:


> Very well put. This post has turned into one of amateurs giving other amateurs their best-guess advice, and questioning the answer(s) of journeymen electricians who have done this more than a few times.


Yes it is best. None of the dozen or so houses I've been involved with have ever burned or had any electrical problems. But talking about it and seeing examples of good practices, gudelines etc. are worlds apart.


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## tmanmi (Sep 20, 2005)

So do any of you pros have the utility company pull the meter before you would do something like a panel upgrade and does the job have to be inspected before they will put the meter back in?


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

tmanmi said:


> So do any of you pros have the utility company pull the meter before you would do something like a panel upgrade and does the job have to be inspected before they will put the meter back in?


The first step is pulling the permit. Then call the utility to disconnect power. They will give you the day it will be done. Then call the inspectors office to get an inspection for that day. The inspector will come out later in the afternoon.
The utility will come out early in the day to disconnect. Have everything ready to go(materials, tools, etc....) Make sure you have a good trouble light and either a generator or extension cord coming from you neighbors house. Especially if your panel is in the basement because it will be very dark.
Have everything planned out in your head before you start because when the utility crew comes back out they won't wait around if you're not done.
The inspector will green-tag the meter base if the job passes. When the utility comes back out and sees the green tag they will reconnect power. If the inspector red-tags it you're going to be another night without power until it is corrected.


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## snowman11 (Nov 21, 2006)

Again, your description of the process is area dependant.

Journeyman or no journeyman, it's up to the local municipalities.

Down here, DTE wont even return phone calls about service upgrades. I've tried. The city inspector verified...you do all the work, which includes moving the lines.


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

Are you saying that if you call DTE they won't come out and do a disconnect in order for you to change out a meter base & service feeders?


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Jumpshootin' said:


> Are you saying that if you call DTE they won't come out and do a disconnect in order for you to change out a meter base & service feeders?


Always done em hot.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

soggybtmboys said:


> Always done em hot.


One hand in the pocket ?


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## ih772 (Jan 28, 2003)

Jumpshootin' said:


> Are you saying that if you call DTE they won't come out and do a disconnect in order for you to change out a meter base & service feeders?


I've always done them hot too. DTE figures if you have your masters license and can pull permits, then you have the proper knowledge and equipment to do the job. I agree.

If I don't have to change the riser and service conductor, I just cut the tag off the meter and go to work. The only way they are really going to look and see if the tag has been cut, is if the amount of power used by that house drops suddenly and by a large margain. Then they will suspect meter bypassing.

The voltage is only 240V and isn't going to arc wildly or anything crazy like that when you disconnect it. It's not like your messing around with 7,200V.

If a homeowner is uncomfortable dealing with 240V, then they really don't have the knowledge to do the service change correctly and should have a licensed electrician pull a permit and do the job.


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

Jumpshootin' said:


> Are you saying that if you call DTE they won't come out and do a disconnect in order for you to change out a meter base & service feeders?


Hhhheeeelllllllll no they won't,that's funny at best
do it hot or don't do it,and most of the time it's not an option
that what some of us have our licenses for.....




> Very well put. This post has turned into one of amateurs giving other amateurs their best-guess advice, and questioning the answer(s) of journeymen electricians who have done this more than a few times.


 That statement is very well put.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

FREEPOP said:


> One hand in the pocket ?


 
lol, no. Need both hands, good rated gloves, fiberglass ladder go one at a time. Only licensed electricians should mess with drops. I cannot stress enough to most folks, if you are not sure about doing wiring in your home...call one of us that are. You may think you are doing a good job, and it may appear that you have, but there are many many various codes on doing work and they change sometimes every 3 years. Plus the Michigan residential codes. 

What you may think is a good idea actually could be a code violation, or inherently dangerous practice that we know not to do. Thats why we are professionals with licenses and insurance.


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## Ogre (Mar 21, 2003)

I have been following this thread and apologize for butting in but I have a question. If a homeowner does this himself, what are the insurance liabilities regarding doing this change with and without pulling a permit and getting the work inspected?


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

I'll pull the meter socket and replace everything on the load side without a utility disconnect. But are you guys saying that you will replace a meter base without a utility disconnect? You are going to cut the drop hot? Or disconnect the utility side of an underground hot?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

soggybtmboys said:


> lol, no. Need both hands, good rated gloves, fiberglass ladder go one at a time. Only licensed electricians should mess with drops. I cannot stress enough to most folks, if you are not sure about doing wiring in your home...call one of us that are. You may think you are doing a good job, and it may appear that you have, but there are many many various codes on doing work and they change sometimes every 3 years. Plus the Michigan residential codes.
> 
> What you may think is a good idea actually could be a code violation, or inherently dangerous practice that we know not to do. Thats why we are professionals with licenses and insurance.


I only do for myself and a friend or two, not for money. I keep up with code through a friend that's a Master and licensed (he's the one that told me about the one hand) and the majority of my work has been inspected. I know when I'm over my head too and not afraid to say so.
Shocks are my largest pet peve.


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