# MDNR unleashes armed raids on small pig farmers



## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

UH-OH....Sure hope these high winds dont knock down any fences.

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NaturalNews can now confirm that the Michigan Department of Natural Resources has, in total violation of the Fourth Amendment, conducted two armed raids on pig farmers in that state, one in Kalkaska County at Fife Lake and another in Cheboygan County. Staging raids involving six vehicles and ten armed men, DNA conducted unconstitutional, illegal and arguably _criminal_ armed raids on these two farms with the intent of shooting all the farmers' pigs under a bizarre new "Invasive Species Order" (ISO) that has suddenly declared traditional livestock to be an invasive species.


Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/035585_Michigan_farms_raids.html#ixzz1sG2alW8Q​

Its also on the Drudge report.


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## FallDreamer (Dec 15, 2010)

WOW it is amazing how loosely the author is using the word "farmer". :lol:

The "Farmer" was heart wrenched to have to shoot his own "pigs", So someone paying him to shoot his "Pigs" makes the feeling go away. 

What a freaking JOKE!! Putting wild hogs in a pen for people to shoot isn't farming. I can't Believe they can put crap like this in writing. And the picture is the best.  That is why you should not believe every thing you read.


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## pete (Nov 27, 2007)

Dreamer, that is one dumb ass statement. The DNR are out of control, and must be held accountable for their actions. Please educate your self on the subject, before you post.


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## FallDreamer (Dec 15, 2010)

I am educated on the subject, That's why i can say Don't Believe What You Read. Thanks anyway


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## HTC (Oct 6, 2005)

FallDreamer said:


> WOW it is amazing how loosely the author is using the word "farmer". :lol:
> 
> The "Farmer" was heart wrenched to have to shoot his own "pigs", So someone paying him to shoot his "Pigs" makes the feeling go away.
> 
> What a freaking JOKE!! Putting wild hogs in a pen for people to shoot isn't farming. I can't Believe they can put crap like this in writing. And the picture is the best.  That is why you should not believe every thing you read.


I agree, that article is a crock. When it referred to "shooting piglets in cold blood" I knew it was slanted. They make no reference to the law, the problem that drove the law or how these operations were not in compliance. If these farmers had a leg to stand on they would not have been shooting their own pigs, they would have been in court.


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## Tron322 (Oct 29, 2011)

Yup, never believe what you read, things like wild hogs taking hold in michigan can never happen unless global warming takes hold and raises temps here to those of the south. The DNR is out of control and everyone has fallen right into it.


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## whatever (Jan 13, 2011)

:yikes: thats just great now the constitution of this country means nothing !!! can't wait till the d.n.r raids dreamer's place and everyone stands by. cant even run a bussiness in this state just like california . imaginary hogs everywhere run for your life !! :rant:


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

The issue at hand is no longer a "feral pig" issue but a clear violation of 4th Amendment.
We live in some scary times....

Sent from my LG-P925


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Keep in mind that there are also heritage hog farms in which they are raised for meat not high fence hunting. They serve a market for natural food products. These farms are included.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

I realize there are two-sides to the issue, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out...especially, the accusation claiming false information was provided in order to secure a search warrant. 

Can anyone explain how authroities can positively identify a feral pig from a domestic by simply looking at it?


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

> Can anyone explain how authroities can positively identify a feral pig from a domestic by simply looking at it?


Anyone can do that, feral is outside a fence and domestic is inside the fence.

Invasive species swine ID.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Feral_swine_photo_illustration_381452_7.pdf


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## bylawhunter (Jun 23, 2010)

It seems like there are multiple ways around this other than stopping pig farming. 

Does this mean ALL pigs or just the colored ones? 

There are permits and codes on how to build things, up the requirements on fencing, and even the fines for livestock escaping. 

Our governor seems to be doing a great job for the small business person or even the middle to lower class. LOL


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## FallDreamer (Dec 15, 2010)

What is the CLEAR Violation of the 4th amendment 

These are regulated hog hunting facilities, there for they are subject to search, if a search is denied then they are subject to administrative search done with a search warrant. The article didn't say that  

If they want to raise pigs, raise domestic pigs like the rest for the actual pig farmers in michigan. Problem solved


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## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

as always there is two sides to every story. given a fairly generous time frame to come into compliance with the law. why did these "farmers" feel they were special and above the law . and did not need to rid their "farms" if these animals?


and how dare those law enforcement officers do their jobs and enforce the law?


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

FallDreamer said:


> What is the CLEAR Violation of the 4th amendment
> 
> These are regulated hog hunting facilities, there for they are subject to search, if a search is denied then they are subject to administrative search done with a search warrant. The article didn't say that
> 
> If they want to raise pigs, raise domestic pigs like the rest for the actual pig farmers in michigan. Problem solved


The CLEAR violation of the 4th amendment is the fact that there is a lawsuit against the DNR. Yes, the Appeals Court did side with the DNR however, the next step is for it to go to the Michigan Supreme Court for ruling. So tell me, if there isn't a ruling then what gives the DNR the right to illegally seize these "feral pigs", which ARE regulated by the US Department of Agriculture?



Sent from my LG-P925


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Here is a link to the Farm Bureaus view on farming the invasive variety of swine.
http://www.michiganfarmbureau.com/farmnews/transform.php?xml=20120115/swine.xml


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

FallDreamer said:


> WOW it is amazing how loosely the author is using the word "farmer". :lol:
> 
> The "Farmer" was heart wrenched to have to shoot his own "pigs", So someone paying him to shoot his "Pigs" makes the feeling go away.
> 
> What a freaking JOKE!! Putting wild hogs in a pen for people to shoot isn't farming. I can't Believe they can put crap like this in writing. And the picture is the best.  That is why you should not believe every thing you read.


BTW, you really should look up bakers green acres online, which according to the article was raided. It isn't a hunting ranch or game preserve.

Sent from my LG-P925


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

I guess this state hasnt learned anything from the Zebra Mussles, Gobys or how those Asian Carp farmers doing? 

Some part of the Gov is being reactive and people are mad about that?

(those farmers where made aware of the gov view on invasive pigs and by calling oneself a "farm" dosent change the pigs blood line. They knew, they took a chance, they gambled, they lost)


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## bylawhunter (Jun 23, 2010)

Now that I am a little more knowledgable from the Farm Bureal article I understand why the state is taking action. The damage to crops, streams. disease, and agricultural crops. If such issues were to occure it could stop all trading of the other white meat to Canada. This putting an even larger burden on Michigans Pig farmers which would have a much larget economic impact. 

With that said, it amazes me how the federal government will not stop the locks so Asian Carp won't invade the Great Lakes. This industry seems like a much larger economic impact.

Not trying to highjack just a comparison.


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/michigan-dnr-going-hog-wild.htm

Sent from my LG-P925


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

If the article below is accurate, it certainly seems like the DNR is arbitrarily enforcing the new law, which is worrisome. 

http://www.mininggazette.com/page/c...araga-farmer-escapes-DNR-action.html?nav=5006


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

Munsterlndr said:


> If the article below is accurate, it certainly seems like the DNR is arbitrarily enforcing the new law, which is worrisome.
> 
> http://www.mininggazette.com/page/c...araga-farmer-escapes-DNR-action.html?nav=5006


Munsterlndr 
how dare you think that our own DNR would do something wrong you should know better then that. you should know that the pigs are only bad in other county's just not baraga the other farmers screwed up buy not naming there pigs as a different breed.. only in mich


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## skip tumalu (Oct 1, 2011)

The dnr officers that conducted the raids should be arrested. Call every state official you can and raise hell! We still have a Constitution right? In the USA, disturbing.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## DangerGoose (Jun 14, 2004)

CMR said:


> The CLEAR violation of the 4th amendment is the fact that there is a lawsuit against the DNR. Yes, the Appeals Court did side with the DNR however, the next step is for it to go to the Michigan Supreme Court for ruling. So tell me, if there isn't a ruling then what gives the DNR the right to illegally seize these "feral pigs", which ARE regulated by the US Department of Agriculture?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-P925


:cwm27: Oops...just because there's a lawsuit against the DNR, doesn't mean there was a "CLEAR" 4th amendment violation here. If every lawsuit meant a legitimate violation had occurred, the legal system wouldn't be necessary. :cwm27:

IMO, the DNR was doing what we want them to do: enforcing the rules so that everyone can enjoy the outdoors. If someone wants to live without rules, there's always room in central Africa for pig "farming"...


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## DangerGoose (Jun 14, 2004)

bylawhunter said:


> Now that I am a little more knowledgable from the Farm Bureal article I understand why the state is taking action. The damage to crops, streams. disease, and agricultural crops. If such issues were to occure it could stop all trading of the other white meat to Canada. This putting an even larger burden on Michigans Pig farmers which would have a much larget economic impact.
> 
> With that said, it amazes me how the federal government will not stop the locks so Asian Carp won't invade the Great Lakes. This industry seems like a much larger economic impact.
> 
> Not trying to highjack just a comparison.


:woohoo1::woohoo1::woohoo1::woohoo1::woohoo1:


Maybe if the Round Goby had been stopped 10 years ago there would still be a reasonable salmon population in Lake Michigan. 10 million pounds of Round Goby in Lake Michigan in 2008!

http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index.ssf/2009/01/goby_population_in_great_lakes.html

The world became a smaller place at some point, and it's not a good thing. Local ecosystems get disturbed because some ****-Hole needs to breed Eurasian Boars in his backyard...


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## CMR (Jul 25, 2003)

DangerGoose said:


> :cwm27: Oops...just because there's a lawsuit against the DNR, doesn't mean there was a "CLEAR" 4th amendment violation here. If every lawsuit meant a legitimate violation had occurred, the legal system wouldn't be necessary. :cwm27:
> 
> IMO, the DNR was doing what we want them to do: enforcing the rules so that everyone can enjoy the outdoors. If someone wants to live without rules, there's always room in central Africa for pig "farming"...


The DNR regulates wildlife. These "feral pigs" were purchased, therefore they are now property. The DNR has overstepped its authority with this "law". This has nothing to do with ecosystems, but regulation and control by more government which has been influenced by the Michigan pork farmers interests. Period.


Sent from my LG-P925


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

It is not like this is a new issue; the DNR has provided plenty of notice to these farming operations to cull their swine herd that fall into the invasive species bracket.



> DNRE Director Signs Order to Make Feral Swine Invasive Species
> Contact: Mary Dettloff 517-335-3014
> Agency: Natural Resources
> 
> ...


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## sgtguardsman (Nov 5, 2010)

Was the "Farm" in Kalkaska Co. called "Deer Tracks" by chance?? If so it maybe a good thing if they were not doing their part to keep them Inside the fences! I have property near there and don't want them to be the next "Goby" in my area!!


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## grower (Apr 17, 2012)

Definition of FERAL
1
: of, relating to, or suggestive of a wild beast <feral teeth> <feral instincts> 
2
a : not domesticated or cultivated : wild 


The problem is, the DNR is defining "feral" not by whether the animal is running wild or not, but by whether it has certain physical characteristics -- straight tail, upright ears, etc. Because of this arbitrary definition of "feral," a lot of heritage breeds are falling into that category. Here is how "heritage livestock" is defined on a web site devoted to this type of farming:

Heritage Livestock Breeds
Heritage breeds are traditional livestock breeds that were raised by farmers in the past, before the drastic reduction of breed variety caused by the rise of industrial agriculture. 

Because of the "profiling" of pigs by DNR, in an arbitrary fashion, small family farms that have been working for years to revive almost-extinct breeds of pigs are now being targeted for legal action. These are NOT GAME PRESERVES, but rather small family farms, with stout fences, and pedigrees for their animals. And in many cases, they have a market for their pork that pays a premium dollar.

Oh, by the way, one more definition:

Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


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## i missed again (Sep 7, 2008)

if they are only using physical appearance to define a feral pig were they just doing dna tests to see if the tail was realy strait :lol:


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## i missed again (Sep 7, 2008)

why did the one farmer shoot all his pig before the dnr got there if he dident know he was breaking the law and if he was breaking the law why should the dnr ignore it


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## eino (Jun 19, 2003)

Is it illeagle to hunt pigs at ranches? Were the places in question in trouble before and not complying? Personally I'm not against shooting a fenced pig and normally would defend the action. But I read the story on infowars, an Alex Jones web site, and don't really like the way he spins the story. http://www.infowars.com/michigan-go...-farmers-forces-farmer-to-shoot-all-his-pigs/
There's got to be more to the story than the one sided view here. Does anyone know the whole story here?


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

The hunting ranch that was raided in Kalkaska was Deer Tracks.

Go to just about any issue of Woods and Waters (prior to January 2011)and look for Deer Tracks half page ad for " RUSSIAN BOAR HUNTS". 

Very interesting to see that as of December 2010 the ad said "RUSSIAN BOAR HUNTS" and January of 2011 the ad said "HUNT BOAR AND RAM". Now why do you suppose they changed the ad??

Russian Boar are commonly referred to and well known to be a dangerous
and invasive species.

If the owner advertises in a statewide publication that he is and has been
hosting hunts for an invasive species, how can he now have a valid argument that they are suddenly just domestic pigs and his is a simple 
farming operation?

Operations like Deer Tracks were given fair warning to get rid of these 
animals. They chose not to do that and skirt the issue by saying they are 
now a farming operation, so I for one have little sympathy for them.


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## TVCJohn (Nov 30, 2005)

Note the date at the bottom....



> *Booher calls on governor to rescind Invasive Species Order on swine*
> 
> ​LANSING  Sen. Darwin Booher called on Gov. Rick Snyder to rescind an Invasive Species Order (ISO) enacted by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources (DNR) that will make it illegal to raise certain breeds of pigs in Michigan.
> Booher and constituent Mark Baker, a farmer from Marion in Missaukee County, testified against the order in front of the Senate Agriculture Committee on Thursday. Baker raises hybrid mangalitsa hogs, which would be prohibited under the order.
> ...


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## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

bylawhunter said:


> Now that I am a little more knowledgable from the Farm Bureal article I understand why the state is taking action. The damage to crops, streams. disease, and agricultural crops. If such issues were to occure it could stop all trading of the other white meat to Canada. This putting an even larger burden on Michigans Pig farmers which would have a much larget economic impact.
> 
> With that said, it amazes me how the federal government will not stop the locks so Asian Carp won't invade the Great Lakes. This industry seems like a much larger economic impact.
> 
> Not trying to highjack just a comparison.


 thats easy,,, locks are in chicago,,,,now who do you know that started is political life in chicago?


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## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

CMR said:


> The DNR regulates wildlife. These "feral pigs" were purchased, therefore they are now property. The DNR has overstepped its authority with this "law". This has nothing to do with ecosystems, but regulation and control by more government which has been influenced by the Michigan pork farmers interests. Period.
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-P925


 i was under the understanding that only the legislature passed laws,,,and the dnr was charged with enforcing those laws?


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## bylawhunter (Jun 23, 2010)

john warren said:


> thats easy,,, locks are in chicago,,,,now who do you know that started is political life in chicago?


 
I guess I don't understand your question or your answer.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

john warren said:


> i was under the understanding that only the legislature passed laws,,,and the dnr was charged with enforcing those laws?


 Correct, the legislature passes law the NRC/DNR sets rules and regulations within those laws. Many people including the NRC/DNR seem to be under the impression that they are the ultimate authority, they are not. Regardless of Prop G the Legislature maintains oversite through Legislative law.

And it is way overdue for them to put a smackdown on the MDNR/NRC on many issues regarding hunting, fishing, and outdoor recreation. Hopefully the legislature will follow the lead that the Wisconsin legislature set last year. It came close on the crossbow issue, before the NRC caved in for the sole purpose of preserving their illusion of power. Maybe this will be the issue that will end the grand illusion.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I guess that lawers are looking for work and will be able to find alot of it in the future in Michigan bu suing our DNR. The DNR has never liked high fence hunting operations and wants to put these operators out of business. Unfortunately these operators happen to pay lots of $$$ in taxes which the state gladly accepts. As far as feral pigs go these operations are double fenced and the pigs have little or no chance to escape. The new law opens the door for black market pig hunting operations to open and even more pigs to be running loose. The DNR isn"t preventing anything in fact it is opening the door for more feral pigs. What is to say that the offended pig farmers don't raise pigs in the future just to release them as a means of getting back at the DNR. Many of the feral pig problems that Michigan and other states have are the result of hobby farm pigs getting loose. Is the DNR going to shut down everyone who owns a pig in the state? I guess that Granholm didn't run enough legitimate businesses out of Michigan.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Robert Holmes said:


> ....... The new law opens the door for black market pig hunting operations to open and even more pigs to be running loose. .........


I don't know Robert. The idea of a black market pig hunting operation seems very unlikely. Maybe on a remote island just off the mainland that has yet to be discovered ? 

L & O


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Liver and Onions said:


> I don't know Robert. The idea of a black market pig hunting operation seems very unlikely. Maybe on a remote island just off the mainland that has yet to be discovered ?
> 
> L & O


 Making meth in a coke bottle was unheard of a couple of years ago too. Look at all of the hunters on this site alone who want to know where they can hunt wild pigs. Give it a couple of years and the problem will be much worse than it is now, anyway, thank you dnr.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Robert Holmes said:


> Making meth in a coke bottle was unheard of a couple of years ago too. Look at all of the hunters on this site alone who want to know where they can hunt wild pigs. Give it a couple of years and the problem will be much worse than it is now, anyway, thank you dnr.


My understanding is that a person could make meth in a building no bigger than a hunting blind. On private property with roof and walls that operation might be rather easy to hide. A 40 acre pig farm with double fences, not as easy. And of course word of mouth would never get around, right ?
My biggest problem with this timeline is why didn't the DNR make it legal to kill on sight 20 years ago instead of 18 months ago ?
My bet is that a hunting ranch or pig raising farm with double fences with all trees removed within 30 yards never had a pig escape. With a value of $300-400 per pig, a farmer wouldn't want many of these to escape.
Seems pretty easy to regulate.

L & O


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

bylawhunter said:


> I guess I don't understand your question or your answer.


Obama
You mentioned the gov not shutting the locks in Chicago. He was pointing out that Obama blocked the closing of the locks in Chicago. He claimed it will hurt business in the area with no regard for the toll it will take on the eco system of the Great Lakes.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

We don't have dove hunting in Michigan which Ohio and other states love us for. The feds and state DNR have allowed the wolf population in the UP to get out of control, thus by far fewer deer in the UP. Canada and other states love Michigan for that one. Now regulated and legitimate hog hunting on high fence ranches will be a thing of the past. It looks like loads of russian boar hunters will be heading for Texas or other states. For the sake of space I won't go into other DNR issues. The politics in this state drives hunters elsewhere. Of the hunters that I know about 80 percent of them will be hunting out of state this year. Just the ones that I personally know spend thousands of dollars that could help Michigan if the DNR did a better job.


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## rockman (Feb 28, 2001)

Mlive article regarding MDNR response...http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2012/04/michigan_dnr_responds_to_alleg.html


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

The health department showed up at my place of business a few weeks ago, unannounced. They DEMANDED entry, conducted an investigation and left.

I guess my 4th amendment rights have been trampled...

KW


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## bylawhunter (Jun 23, 2010)

rockman said:


> Mlive article regarding MDNR response...http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2012/04/michigan_dnr_responds_to_alleg.html


 
That says it all. Why does the State of Michigan want these animals Eraticated? LOL.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Liver and Onions said:


> My biggest problem with this timeline is why didn't the DNR make it legal to kill on sight 20 years ago instead of 18 months ago ?
> L & O


Its still not exactly shoot on sight. You have to have a valid license and be hunting/shooting under the rules of a season that is open.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

john warren said:


> i was under the understanding that only the legislature passed laws


Then you must have slept through high school civics.

KW


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Robert Holmes said:


> I guess that lawers are looking for work and will be able to find alot of it in the future in Michigan bu suing our DNR. Sue the state for elimating invasives species? good luck !!! The DNR has never liked high fence hunting operations and wants to put these operators out of business. Unfortunately these operators happen to pay lots of $$$ in taxes which the state gladly accepts. Do you have the figures available to show us or just guessing?
> As far as feral pigs go these operations are double fenced and the pigs have little or no chance to escape. And your sure about this? You know for a fact that all are doubled with no escape? if so, how did the escaped pigs out already get free? The new law opens the door for black market pig hunting operations to open and even more pigs to be running loose. If someone want to risk prison time for a felony The DNR isn"t preventing anything in fact it is opening the door for more feral pigs. What is to say that the offended pig farmers don't raise pigs in the future just to release them as a means of getting back at the DNR. Again, prison time for a felony??? Many of the feral pig problems that Michigan and other states have are the result of hobby farm pigs getting loose. Is the DNR going to shut down everyone who owns a pig in the state? No, if you think this then you are mis informed and need to do more research I guess that Granholm didn't run enough legitimate businesses out of Michigan.Granholm ran enough busines out of michigan. But look at the multimillions of dollars damage done in Texas alone by ferals to see what could happen here.



Pigs in Texas. Python in Florida. Gobys, Zebra Mussels others in Michigan. Invasives are not welcome in most ecosystems and can cause 
billions of $$$$ and generations of harm(wait til the carp arrive)


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

john warren said:


> i was under the understanding that only the legislature passed laws,,,and the dnr was charged with enforcing those laws?





k9wernet said:


> Then you must have slept through high school civics.
> 
> KW


Agreed, Because if He was awake he would know for a FACT that the Legislature IS the only body that can pass laws. The NRC/DNR can set rules and regulations that are superceded by Legislative Law.


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## djones9916 (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm curious how so many here don't understand that a law is a law. It may be deemed unconstitutional in the future, but as of now it is still a legally enforcable law.

The state as of 2010 had declared certain breeds as invasive species. In august of 2011 the DNR issued the Invasive Species Order Amendment No. 1, with the legalese reading that they had full authority to do so under all the legal stuff. 

[ame="http://www.scribd.com/doc/84931437/Mdnr-Declaratory-Ruling-2011-12-13-Final-371200-7"]Mdnr Declaratory Ruling 2011-12-13 Final 371200 7[/ame]

It declared that all ranches/farms had "dispossess" those breeds declared invasive species by April 1st of this year. There was nothing but plenty of time to get in compliance with this law. The DNR gave two further weeks past the deadline before they began conducting searches.

Now... from the owners of Bakers Green Acres own words he was delivered a search warrant by these officers. So everyone screaming about 4th Amendment and all that, you've got no ground to stand on. A warrant was obtained, so a judged deemed it a reasonable search. 

Sure, another judge may decide to throw that out later on, but at that point in time the DNR had every legal right to do what they did.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

swampbuck said:


> Agreed, Because if He was awake he would know for a FACT that the Legislature IS the only body that can pass laws. The NRC/DNR can set rules and regulations that are superceded by Legislative Law.


Semantics. The bottom line is that the DNR has a VERY legal power to pass rules and regulations (a practice commonly referred to as administrative LAW). Administrative law carries the same weight and consequences as legislative law.

The fact that the administrative agency's power to promulgate law is delegated by the legislative branch is inconsequential.

Legislative law can be "superseded" (overturned) by the courts or by the voters through a process of referendum. Does that mean they can't REALLY pass laws either?

The criticism was that the DNR doesn't have the right to pass and enforce public policy. The fact is they do. Every administrative agency does. If you don't like the policy they're putting forward, jumpstart some legislation to repeal it. It sounds like that's pretty easy.

KW


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

so what the dnr should be able to go on to anyones property to get rid of anything they consider a Invasive Species where the owners agree or not


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

miruss said:


> so what the dnr should be able to go on to anyones property to get rid of anything they consider a Invasive Species where the owners agree or not


No,you are trying to read into this something that isnt there. Not what "they consider a Invasive Species" Its what the LAW considers an Invasive Species. 

They are NOT going on "anyones" property only the places that are known to be pig farms or have the I.S. pigs. 

These places where notified 2 years ago what was happening and allowed 2 years to make changes. 

"where the owners agree or not". sounds like most if not all have agreed.
But if not then a warrant could be ordered.


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

mel said:


> no,you are trying to read into this something that isnt there. Not what "they consider a invasive species" its what the law considers an invasive species.
> 
> They are not going on "anyones" property only the places that are known to be pig farms or have the i.s. Pigs.
> 
> ...


and who made this law


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> Semantics. The bottom line is that the DNR has a VERY legal power to pass rules and regulations (a practice commonly referred to as administrative LAW). Administrative law carries the same weight and consequences as legislative law.
> 
> The fact that the administrative agency's power to promulgate law is delegated by the legislative branch is inconsequential.
> 
> ...


So then the question is.....Does the Dept. of Natural Resources have the authority to sign an order, allowing them to enter private property for the purpose of seizing or destroying Privately owned livestock.

I agree that hogs that have gone feral are under their juristiction. But what give's them the right with animals that are securely contained, And in particular animals that are not high fence/ranch animals, but legitimate heritage breeds of swine that are livestock.

I believe regardless of what should be done on this issue. That the Invasive species order designating certain breeds of domestic swine as invasive is beyond the scope of the MDNR's authority. This one should have been dealt with by the Legislature and the Dept of Agriculture.

It looks to me like a case where the Govt and agencys are passing the buck on the issue. So the MDNR went ahead and did what they want, Hopefully the Judicial branch will examine the issue and define the scope of MDNR authority.




miruss said:


> and who made this law


It is an Invasive Species Order and it is signed by MDNR Director Rodney Stokes. Does anyone really believe that We should be entrusting this type of power to Mr. Stokes. (not the man but the position)


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## e. fairbanks (Dec 6, 2007)

When the DNR destroys captive deer (classified as livestock) THE OWNERS ARE PAID FULL VALUE
These pigs (or the breeding stock) were bought and paid for, brought in legally from breeders in southern states.
Are the destroyed animals paid for ?


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

From everything that I have read about the Carp is that they were brought into the United States with the aid and funding by the USFWS. They were raised and nutured with the help of the USFWS. They were released into sewage ponds and catfish farms with the aid of the USFWS, It was only when they escaped and went through the Mississippii that they became an invasive species. I believe that if a pig on a high fence ranch is worth $500 to the ranch owner he or she is going to be a little more careful with them than the USFWS was with the asian carp. Don't let it fool you just like lamphrey the asian carp produces hundreds of jobs for the USFWS and very few of those jobs are pro active. The high fence operators do not produce jobs for the DNR so the DNR is out to close them down. If the DNR is so worried about invasive species what do they do about the freighters who have introduced 100+ invasive species to the great lakes?


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Robert Holmes said:


> From everything that I have read about the Carp is that they were brought into the United States with the aid and funding by the USFWS. They were raised and nutured with the help of the USFWS. They were released into sewage ponds and catfish farms with the aid of the USFWS, It was only when they escaped and went through the Mississippii that they became an invasive species. Well it dosent look like the USFWS is doing a very good job so far in keeping them away from the Great Lakes I believe that if a pig on a high fence ranch is worth $500 to the ranch owner he or she is going to be a little more careful with them than the USFWS was with the asian carp. So how do you explain the feral pigs running around Michigan right now? Don't let it fool you just like lamphrey the asian carp produces hundreds of jobs for the USFWS and very few of those jobs are pro active. The high fence operators do not produce jobs for the DNR so the DNR is out to close them down. But if they allow these places and the pigs escape dosent they mean more DNR jobs to control them??? If the DNR is so worried about invasive species what do they do about the freighters who have introduced 100+ invasive species to the great lakes? The state Legislature has passed I.S. laws for Mich. Waters Its illegal to dump IS in Mich. However, how would the DNR ever hope to stop the dumpers. (they will dump their ballast water in Ohio, Pennsylvania, NY, Wisc. or Canada. Nothing the DNR can do)


....


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I find it ironic that in this thread we are discussing the MDNR's eliminating an "invasive species" with economic benefits, due to its threat to the environment....

While in the cold water forum a MDNR fisheries employee is discussing trying to preserve/increase a highly invasive species (alewives) which he admits have been a disaster for native species to the point of driving some to near extinction......Because they provide forage for a non-indigenous species with economic benefit.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

It is not illegal for anyone who lives outside of a city limits to buy some pigs to raise them for meat or market. For example I buy a few pigs and fence them in and feed them for a couple of months then they escape. I cannot find them because they went down in the swamp. A pig can hide better than any deer or turkey. I quit looking for them as I am only out a couple of hundred dollars. The personal use producer is responsible for most of the feral pigs running around in Michigan. The high fence owners have more $$$$ at risk and do not want a bad reputation so they go through extra measures to make sure that their pigs do not get loose. The number of reported feral pig kills each year is only about 25 pigs, most probably do not last long after they escape. If you watch this and other Michigan Outdoor web sites it seems as though some very small areas in the state have a rather high incidence of feral pigs and it repeats in those areas. Those areas also have a high number of small or hobby farms. The DNR needs to go to the real source if they want to eliminate the problem.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

swampbuck said:


> So then the question is.....Does the Dept. of Natural Resources have the authority to sign an order, allowing them to enter private property for the purpose of seizing or destroying Privately owned livestock.


That's a valid question, and one for the legislature or the courts to address.

That's the beautiful thing about checks and balances... when one branch of govt abuses their power or over-reaches, there's another power-hungry branch standing guard to keep them in check.

I personally don't see the pig issue as an abuse.

KW


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Robert Holmes said:


> It is not illegal for anyone who lives outside of a city limits to buy some pigs to raise them for meat or market. For example I buy a few pigs and fence them in and feed them for a couple of months then they escape. I cannot find them because they went down in the swamp. A pig can hide better than any deer or turkey. I quit looking for them as I am only out a couple of hundred dollars. The personal use producer is responsible for most of the feral pigs running around in Michigan. The high fence owners have more $$$$ at risk and do not want a bad reputation so they go through extra measures to make sure that their pigs do not get loose. The number of reported feral pig kills each year is only about 25 pigs, most probably do not last long after they escape. If you watch this and other Michigan Outdoor web sites it seems as though some very small areas in the state have a rather high incidence of feral pigs and it repeats in those areas. Those areas also have a high number of small or hobby farms. The DNR needs to go to the real source if they want to eliminate the problem.


This in NOT about your average little pink pot bellied pig Its about INVASIVE SPECIES!!! Russian and European Boars and others

You should look up the difference between a "Feral pig and an Invasives species pig. 

Regular old farm raised pigs are not the issue here, if they escape, they most likely die or if they live DO NOT cause the trouble that the I.S. pigs do.

"The DNR needs to go to the real source if they want to eliminate the problem". _Thats why everyone is in an uproar (unfounded as it may be) 
its because they are dealing at the source. when the IS are eliminated it will be a felony to own one!!!

_


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

MEL said:


> This in NOT about your average little pink pot bellied pig Its about INVASIVE SPECIES!!! Russian and European Boars and others
> 
> You should look up the difference between a "Feral pig and an Invasives species pig.
> 
> ...


Looks like a russian to me. From the M-Live article









Courtesy PhotoThis feral pig, which appears to be feeding on a deer carcass, was photographed in a field north of Muskegon.


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## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

k9wernet said:


> Then you must have slept through high school civics.
> 
> KW


 enlighten me. who passes laws?


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## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

MEL said:


> No,you are trying to read into this something that isnt there. Not what "they consider a Invasive Species" Its what the LAW considers an Invasive Species.
> 
> They are NOT going on "anyones" property only the places that are known to be pig farms or have the I.S. pigs.
> 
> ...


 actualy, the dnr , in the function of their duty have the right to enter upon any private property without notice. i can't recall where i read this, but remember it from a poaching case i read about, admitedly at my age my memory isn't perfect. but it had something to do with a leo passing by a window in a shed and seeing an illegal deer.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

A farm pig can survive quite well in the wild. They can eat just about anything from berries to roots to dead animals. After they have been in the wild a few months they grow tusks and a thick coat of body hair. Thus Feral pig just like a feral dog or cat. I does not have to be a Russian Boar to be a feral pig. Funny thing is that the Michigan Hog Producers who are raising a big stink about all of this may very well be part of the problem. With meat prices being sky high the Michigan Hog Producers are trying to eliminate any source of competition. With meat prices being what they are it is pretty cost effective to shoot a Russian Boar off from a ranch. A 400 pound russian will produce about 200 pounds of meat at about $3.25 per pound. I cannot buy meat that cheap where I live, thus I hunt & fish.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

MEL said:


> ....


Indiana has had laws like this in place and they still have a hog problem


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

The hog farms in Michigan have sold and will probably continue to sell pigs that will not bring a high market price to high fence operators. The operators buy them at a lower price and sell them to the hunters as feral pigs. In the future you will be able to hunt feral farm pigs in Michigan at the ranches for an even higher price. If you want a Russian you have to go out of state.


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

why are some INVASIVE SPECIES good and others bad and people try to expand them if they like what there doing


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

miruss said:


> why are some INVASIVE SPECIES good and others bad and people try to expand them if they like what there doing


I believe that decision is made by the special interest groups. And they inform the DNR if a particular invasive plant,fish, animal etc., is useful to them or not.


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## S.E.M.O.R.E. (Nov 1, 2008)

How many feral hogs are running loose in the State of Michigan as of today? The numbers have been reported as high as 7K, now were down to between 1 and 3K.... OK.. SHOW ME. 

600 Wolves in Upper Michigan according to DNR, are seen constantly, have destroyed cattle, domestic pets, and spread disease throughout the eco system.

Hmm 6 thousand pigs, a few hundred seen and shot....600 wolves and hundreds of cattle, dogs and sightings. 

In other words, the DNR is disingenuous with it's facts..I.E. the number of wild boar/feral swine running loose in Michigan.

It's reasoning is hypocrisy in action. Compare the diseases of Wolves and the threat to livestock and Man, the DNR and USFWS brought wolves to Michigan for the re-wilding. But Pigs are a hazard?? Seriously? 

They have NO sound scientific data/evidence to distinguish between a russian boar and a pink pig. ONE AND THE SAME SPECIES. 

This blows the very foundation of the ISO. It's based upon "HUBRIS". It's flawed. HOW do they swear under oath to obtain a search warrant and charge a felony for possession of something they cannot scientifically differentiate/identify as the scientific specific contraband?

DNR brought Canadian Gray Wolves into Michigan. The Eastern Timber Wolf is the native wolf in the Great Lakes. Makes the Canadian Gray invasive then. NOPE! Seems the eastern timber wolf is a SUB species of the Canadian Gray. DNR says a wolf is a wolf is a wolf.

OK, then the same logic applies to the Pigs. A pig is a pig is a pig. Only in this case, disease carrying wolves are ok to roam free, but disease free non cafo pigs are not ok to keep in secure enclosures. Sorry I dont get it! 

If THAT isnt enough, let's play the DNR is right game. Fine. When do they decide Feral Dogs are an invasive species? So they come onto your property and if it aint a beagle, it's a feral dog and must be destroyed? How many versions of a beagle have you seen? The ISO sets the precedent for some agenda driven DNR Director in the future to do just THAT..and that is the REAL issue EVERYONE should be concerned about. READ BETWEEN THE LINES AND CONSIDER ALL POSSIBILITY. 

The point isnt about hogs. The point is lunacy of the DNR attempting invoke it's will on FARMS it historically has NO jurisdiction over, is bound by sound scientific principals to manage NATURAL RESOURCES, and the DNR has a huge credibility problem..proving once again it cannot tell the truth with it's spin on the number of feral swine roaming our woods. THE DNR IS FLAT OUT OVERSTEPPING THE CONSTITUTION AND IT's IN SERIOUS DOO DOO WITH THIS ONE. The whole country is watching, DNR's phones coming off the hook.

Stokes could have resolved this very simply by pulling back the order to address pigs outside the fence, and HUGE mega fines on any pigs escaping from any operations. NOPE..the almighty dollar from industrial pork producers and the DNR overzealous attempt to shut down canned hunts has them in a corner they cannot get out of. Stokes was very foolish and he will wear the pig dung the rest of his professional career no matter where he goes, no matter how this comes out.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Link to DNR press release on false rumors of DNR raids. Imagine that; the press getting something wrong.
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419830


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

This thread went downhill from the title of the thread forward.

That's what happens when you quote things as fact from the "Natural News" and the "Drudge Report" combined with an incendiary title. :evil:


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

You are close but there is more than likely 1000+ wolves in the UP and as many as 50 in the NLP. If you have never seen one they can get rather large. They are pretty well protected and I agree that they are an invasive species. They were put here and migrated here with the help of the USFWS and it was left to the DNR to protect them. It is rather ironic that the special interest groups who defend them in court spend very little money on them. Most of the money that is spent on them comes from hunters, trappers, and fishermen. They continue to wipe out the deer population in the UP as well as domestic animals and hunting dogs. As for feral pigs there might be as many as 100 at any given time but I really doubt their is any more than that.


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## Chuck (Sep 24, 2000)

Here is a link to a PDF explaining the order in more detail

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/MDNR_DECLARATORY_RULING_2011-12-13_FINAL_371200_7.pdf

I find it interestring that the MI DNR has released multiple press releases down playing there actions and saying they are not going after heritage farmers but in reality they have done just that.

Read between the lines 

I think SEMORE said it well in regards to this Order issued by the DNR making all swine feral and illegal to posses unless your a large industry pork grower is very unnerving.


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## Chuck (Sep 24, 2000)

Oh, Mel here is a pic for you of what the Bakers raise..... geese I would be scared to death and wet my self if I ran into this in the wilds of MI. (being sarcastic of course)


yeeesh If people cant see we have a problem here your just dont want to see it. Big business is creating more laws to lock up American citizens.


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## moreychuck (Aug 19, 2006)

john warren said:


> actualy, the dnr , in the function of their duty have the right to enter upon any private property without notice. i can't recall where i read this, but remember it from a poaching case i read about, admitedly at my age my memory isn't perfect. but it had something to do with a leo passing by a window in a shed and seeing an illegal deer.


ever heard about the bill of rights? and with farm animals the 4th amendment in particular.Sad so few sportsmen get what this is about


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## fairfax1 (Jun 12, 2003)

Will Mike Adams and the Natural News get the party's nomination for the "Drama Queen" award?

Histrionics overload.


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## kgpcr (Apr 25, 2012)

Looks like one more story where the truth is some where in between the lines.


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