# Obama F&WS Issues Lead Fishing Tackle and Ammunition Ban for Lands & Waters Under Its Jurisdiction



## 10x25mm (Nov 12, 2016)

This ban will probably affect fishermen more than shooters and hunters. There are a lot of small littoral Fish and Wildlife Service refuges along the Great Lakes and its rivers which give the F&WS jurisdiction over waters well out into the Great Lakes. The Detroit River International Refuge is a good example; this order will prohibit lead sinkers down into Monroe County. Fishermen will be in real jeopardy, because they will have to know whether they are fishing in waters under F&WS jurisdiction.

It takes effect immediately:

http://freebeacon.com/issues/obama-official-issues-ammunition-ban-federal-lands-last-day-office/

_*Obama Official Issues Ammunition Ban for Federal Lands on Last Day in Office*
By: Stephen Gutowski 
January 20, 2017 3:47 pm

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Dan Ashe, an Obama appointee, ordered a new ammunition ban for certain federal lands [*and waters!*] on Thursday – his last full day in office.

The ban, which took effect immediately, eliminates the use of lead-based ammunition on federal lands like national parks and wildlife refuges, as well as any other land administered by the Fish and Wildlife Service. The ban is expected to have a major impact on much of the hunting that takes place on federal lands across the United States as lead-based ammunition is widely legal and used throughout the country.

Ashe said the order was necessary to protect wildlife from exposure to lead.

“Exposure to lead ammunition and fishing tackle has resulted in harmful effects to fish and wildlife species,” Ashe said in his order. “According to the U.S. Geological Survey, lead poisoning is a toxicosis caused by the absorption of hazardous levels of lead in body tissues.”

“Ingested lead pellets from shotgun shells have been a common source of lead poisoning in birds,” the order continued. “The Service recognized the problem of avian exposure to lead shot used for waterfowl hunting and enacted restrictions in 1991 and hunting and waterfowl populations have thrived since.”

“The use of lead ammunition continues for other forms of hunting, presenting an ongoing risk to upland or terrestrial migratory birds and other species that ingest spent shot directly from the ground or as a result of predating or scavenging carcasses that have been killed with lead ammunition and left in the field” Ashe’s order said. “Many states have enacted nontoxic shot and ammunition requirements to address this concern.”

Gun rights activists expressed outrage at the last-minute move, labeling it political. The National Shooting Sports Foundation called for the agency’s next director to immediately rescind the order.

“This directive is irresponsible and driven not out of sound science but unchecked politics,” said Lawrence Keane, the group’s senior vice president. “The timing alone is suspect. This directive was published without dialogue with industry, sportsmen, and conservationists. The next director should immediately rescind this and, instead, create policy based upon scientific evidence of population impacts with regard to the use of traditional ammunition.”
_​Note that this ban was implemented without following the Administrative Procedures Act, without any input from the public. Typical Obama era subterfuge.

You can read the full text of _F&WS DIRECTOR'S ORDER NUMBER 219_ here:

https://www.fws.gov/policy/do219.html


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## alex-v (Mar 24, 2005)

10x25mm said:


> This ban will probably affect fishermen more than shooters and hunters.


I read the article and nowhere did I find anything about a ban on fishing tackle containing or not containing lead. Just mention of a ban on lead ammo.

Then I read the link to the policy you provided at the bottom and I cannot find a ban on lead fishing tackle or on lead ammo. The order is not a presidential order but appears to be an order from the director of the US Dept of Interior to implement such a ban.

But the order in and of itself does create the ban, just to look into it. The order will expire in 18 months unless the departments affected start to act on it.

Definitely misleading to say it is an Obama official issues ammunition ban though it was done deliberately by who ever wrote the article.


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## 10x25mm (Nov 12, 2016)

alex-v said:


> I read the article and nowhere did I find anything about a ban on fishing tackle containing or not containing lead. Just mention of a ban on lead ammo.
> 
> Then I read the link to the policy you provided at the bottom and I cannot find a ban on lead fishing tackle or on lead ammo. The order is not a presidential order but appears to be an order from the director of the US Dept of Interior to implement such a ban.
> 
> ...


https://www.fws.gov/policy/do219.html

_*Sec. 3 What is the Service’s overall policy? *It is the Service’s policy to:
*a. Require the use of nontoxic ammunition and fishing tackle to the fullest extent practicable for all activities on Service lands, waters, and facilities by January 2022, except as needed for law enforcement or health and safety uses, as provided for in policy.* 
b. Collaborate with state fish and wildlife agencies in implementing this policy.
_​The 'expiration date' is a legal fiction to circumvent the due process requirements of the APA. Makes it an 'emergency' order. Normal additions or removals of acreage from the Federal Refuge system would constitute an amendment, so DO 219 will remain in force indefinitely unless revoked.

Bureaucrats do not use the English language the way you and I do.


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## -Axiom- (Jul 24, 2010)

Trump will likely undo this.


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## toppm (Dec 30, 2010)

Sweet. Because lead is good for you. I wish some of you could see some of the kids I work with that have lead poisoning.


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## 10x25mm (Nov 12, 2016)

toppm said:


> Sweet. Because lead is good for you. I wish some of you could see some of the kids I work with that have lead poisoning.


You know they have lead poisoning, how?

And their lead poisoning was acquired at a federal wildlife refuge, how?

Until Flint, the overwhelming vectors for lead burdens in children were lead in soils (from automotive exhaust) and paint. Both involve soluble lead compounds, not metallic lead. Both were addressed in the 1970's, and do deserve further effort today. This F&WS directive is a distraction designed to punish sportsmen, not a serious effort to end lead poisoning.

There is nothing uniquely evil about lead. Its toxicity symptoms are shared with all the other metals, including those - like copper and iron - which are essential to life. Note that human longevity and quality of life have improved markedly since the Stone Age, before metal usage by humans. Lead was actually the first metal used by humans, with the exception of meteoric metals.


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## -Axiom- (Jul 24, 2010)

10x25mm said:


> You know they have lead poisoning, how?
> 
> And their lead poisoning was acquired at a federal wildlife refuge, how?
> 
> ...


 True, elemental lead is not the issue it's the water & fat soluble compounds that are the problem.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

It's garbage like this order that really hurts the Democrat Party. It is pure politics to stick it to sportsmen. While this order won't stick, it still pisses me off.


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## alex-v (Mar 24, 2005)

Trophy Specialist said:


> It's garbage like this order that really hurts the Democrat Party. It is pure politics to stick it to sportsmen. While this order won't stick, it still pisses me off.


So be ready to channel that pissed off feeling when the time comes.

Now is the time to do fact checking and learning to read or hear what is really there and how it is used.

The other day I could not find any other article except the one at the top with a google search. What does the NRA have to report?


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## alex-v (Mar 24, 2005)

10x25mm said:


> You know they have lead poisoning, how?


I would hazard a guess that it is because he works with them as either a teacher or medically. As to the how, because they have the record of lead poisoning as a part of the reason, not necessarily the entire reason, that he has to work with them.

I wish more people understood more about lead poisoning and how it is acquired. A good start is to read the rest of your msg and learn from that. Then start to research and read more.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

alex-v said:


> So be ready to channel that pissed off feeling when the time comes.
> 
> Now is the time to do fact checking and learning to read or hear what is really there and how it is used.
> 
> The other day I could not find any other article except the one at the top with a google search. What does the NRA have to report?


Here is some info from the NRA which I read several days ago. 

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...wners-with-a-likely-short-lived-lead-ammo-ban


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## frenchriver1 (Jul 5, 2005)

10x25mm said:


> You know they have lead poisoning, how?
> 
> And their lead poisoning was acquired at a federal wildlife refuge, how?
> 
> ...


It is never alleged children's lead exposure is related to either lead shot or fishing sinkers. So that has nothing to do with this discussion as relates to the lead exposure in wildlife. The generally accepted cause of most lead poisoning in children is accidental ingestion of lead based paint.

How exactly are sportsmen being punished, as alternatives to lead sinkers and lead shot are readily available, in response to demand and public pressure? The cost of these alternatives is minuscule in the total annual budget of sportsmen, at either a casual or fanatic level.

If you think the toxicity of lead is not an issue, I suggest you eat a lead sinker a day and then try to later tell us about the impact, if you brain will still function as now. Or, you could eat wildfowl after you pick out the lead pellets in their flesh.

"Note that human longevity and quality of life have improved markedly since the Stone Age, before metal usage by humans. Lead was actually the first metal used by humans, with the exception of meteoric metals."

How about the advances in medicine, nutrition, housing, etc, etc.? Also, it has been suggested the decline in the Roman Empire, for example, was hastened by the deleterious effects of leaching of the the lead cups and goblets by the wine contained therein that was consumed.


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## -Axiom- (Jul 24, 2010)

frenchriver1 said:


> It is never alleged children's lead exposure is related to either lead shot or fishing sinkers. So that has nothing to do with this discussion as relates to the lead exposure in wildlife. The generally accepted cause of most lead poisoning in children is accidental ingestion of lead based paint.
> 
> How exactly are sportsmen being punished, as alternatives to lead sinkers and lead shot are readily available, in response to demand and public pressure? The cost of these alternatives is minuscule in the total annual budget of sportsmen, at either a casual or fanatic level.
> 
> ...



Elemental lead of which bullets & fishing weights are made are not water or fat soluble so they pose no risk to biological processes.

By all means keep up the uninformed scare tactics though there are plenty out there that will suck it up.


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## frenchriver1 (Jul 5, 2005)

-Axiom- said:


> Elemental lead of which bullets & fishing weights are made are not water or fat soluble so they pose no risk to biological processes.
> 
> By all means keep up the uninformed scare tactics though there are plenty out there that will suck it up.


Any lead which sinks to the bottom and just resides there is of no great concern but when wildfowl ingest the pellets, their biological process is disrupted, just as if you had ingested those pellets. Try it....

That is science, not scare tactics.

Suggest you read the literature about the town in Montana near the lead mine, and the impact of the airborne lead taken in by the residents.


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## -Axiom- (Jul 24, 2010)

frenchriver1 said:


> Any lead which sinks to the bottom and just resides there is of no great concern but when wildfowl ingest the pellets, their biological process is disrupted, just as if you had ingested those pellets. Try it....
> 
> That is science, not scare tactics.



Elemental lead is non-reactive, oxides, sulfates , and other compounds of lead are formed when a current is run through them or when exposed to various other chemicals.

These processes generally do not exist in nature.

So yes one could ingest lead split shot with no ill effects.

Laws like these are reliant upon the ignorance of the population.


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## frenchriver1 (Jul 5, 2005)

-Axiom- said:


> Elemental lead is non-reactive, oxides, sulfates , and other compounds of lead are formed when a current is run through them or when exposed to various other chemicals.
> 
> These processes generally do not exist in nature.
> 
> ...


Ignorance is refusing to pay heed to the plethora of studies that have documented the deleterious impacts on game from lead shot, primarily, but also lead sinkers. As you continue to cite processes which do not normally occur in nature to substantiate your position. an electrical current for example, I must assume you are purposelessly intending to deflect or confuse rather than clarify. 

https://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/lead_poisoning/

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues...toxic-lead-ammunition-poisoning-wildlife.html

http://www.depi.vic.gov.au/__data/a...n_cartridges_for_the_hunting_of_waterfowl.pdf

https://fishandgame.idaho.gov/conte...ng-lead-shot-still-legal-any-kind-waterfowl-0

Just a few on the first page of searching...


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## -Axiom- (Jul 24, 2010)

God Emperor is got this on his agenda already, it's gonna be fixed.

https://twitter.com/AP/status/823949141894111233


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## 10x25mm (Nov 12, 2016)

frenchriver1 said:


> If you think the toxicity of lead is not an issue, I suggest you eat a lead sinker a day and then try to later tell us about the impact, if you brain will still function as now. Or, you could eat wildfowl after you pick out the lead pellets in their flesh.


Metallic lead is a lead vector in waterfowl only because they grind it up in their gizzards along with other chemical species which solubilize it. Humans and other mammals do not have gizzards. Neither do fish.

The real purpose of F&WS DO 219 appears to be the disruption of concealed carry on covered federal lands. Note the "all activities" span of the directive in its Section 3. Non toxic ammunition is available to the public for only a few handgun calibers, and isn't considered very reliable. Even if a concealed carrier reloads with non toxic ammunition upon entering cited lands and waters, he/she has to dispose of their lead based ammunition. Mere possession is unlawful. Note further that DO 219 exempts law enforcement, but not concealed carry.


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## frenchriver1 (Jul 5, 2005)

10x25mm said:


> ...The real purpose of F&WS DO 219 appears to be the disruption of concealed carry on covered federal lands....


Another conspiracy theory surfaces. Just think what the status of the world would be if all that energy was used to combat cancer or house the homeless rather than looking for black helicopters. Guess I better get out my camo tape to try to hide my spinning rod from prying government eyes while sucker fishing. Maybe I better check at Northwoods for a stealth rod or two.

Yep, have to confess I have been out there on the specified lands to see an army of dudes pull out their concealed S&Ws and various other handguns with multiple cartridge capacity magazines to fill the sky with a veritable hail of lead projectiles.


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## 10x25mm (Nov 12, 2016)

frenchriver1 said:


> Another conspiracy theory surfaces. Just think what the status of the world would be if all that energy was used to combat cancer or house the homeless rather than looking for black helicopters. Guess I better get out my camo tape to try to hide my spinning rod from prying government eyes while sucker fishing. Maybe I better check at Northwoods for a stealth rod or two.
> 
> Yep, have to confess I have been out there on the specified lands to see an army of dudes pull out their concealed S&Ws and various other handguns with multiple cartridge capacity magazines to fill the sky with a veritable hail of lead projectiles.


Let's parse Section 3 (a) of DO 219 and determine whether its disruption of concealed carry is a 'conspiracy theory' or a 'conspiracy fact':

*"Sec. 3 *What is the Service’s overall policy?* It is the Service’s policy to*:
a. *Require the use of nontoxic ammunition* and fishing tackle *to the fullest extent practicable for all activities on Service lands, waters, and facilities* by January 2022, *except as needed for law enforcement* or health and safety uses, as provided for in policy."​
Questions you must answer truthfully before fatuously claiming a 'conspiracy theory':

1) Is the F&WS is just kidding about requiring 'nontoxic ammunition'?
2) Is concealed carry not included in 'all activities'?
3) Do public thoroughfares cross lands under F&WS jurisdiction?
4) Is driving on one of those thoroughfares crossing lands under F&WS jurisdiction while carrying concealed an 'activity'?
5) Are boaters allowed to navigate on waters under F&WS jurisdiction?
6) Is navigation on one of those waters under F&WS jurisdiction while carrying concealed an 'activity'?
7) Did you miss the exemption the F&WS gave itself to continue using toxic - but reliable - handgun ammunition for law enforcement purposes?​
The Merriam-Webster definition of the word 'activity' might help you:

* Definition of activity *


the quality or state of being active : *behavior or actions of a particular kind <physical activity> <criminal activity> <economic activity>*
A little further information you might find useful. There are actually no truly non toxic cartridges produced today. There are cartridges with lead free projectiles made, there are cartridges with lead free primers made, and cartridges with both lead free projectiles and primers. But all of these cartridges produce toxic metal fumes from the lead substitutes they use. Elements such as barium, antimony, strontium, iron, and copper. Strontium is much more toxic than lead, antimony and barium are about equal to lead in toxicity, and copper and iron are supremely toxic to some humans.


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## frenchriver1 (Jul 5, 2005)

10x25mm said:


> Let's parse Section 3 (a) of DO 219 and determine whether its disruption of concealed carry is a 'conspiracy theory' or a 'conspiracy fact':
> 
> *"Sec. 3 *What is the Service’s overall policy?* It is the Service’s policy to*:
> a. *Require the use of nontoxic ammunition* and fishing tackle *to the fullest extent practicable for all activities on Service lands, waters, and facilities* by January 2022, *except as needed for law enforcement* or health and safety uses, as provided for in policy."​
> ...


Minutia does not disprove my allegation of conspiracy. 

Care to guesstimate how many discharges of subject ammo in a totally confined environment will cause a lethal exposure level to the "toxic" elements you have enumerated?.


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## 10x25mm (Nov 12, 2016)

frenchriver1 said:


> Minutia does not disprove my allegation of conspiracy.
> 
> Care to guesstimate how many discharges of subject ammo in a totally confined environment will cause a lethal exposure level to the "toxic" elements you have enumerated?.


It would be fun to watch you mount a legal defense in a court of law claiming that the plain text law or regulation you violated was 'minutia'. You might as well plead guilty.

There haven't been any lethal exposures to lead in the U.S. since 1998 and, with the exception of an artesianal mining incident in Nigeria in 2010, none in the entire world. Lethal exposures to lead in the United States were mostly associated with moonshine production, a now dying art. Lead poisoning produces violent symptoms long before you acquire a fatal dose.

Barium poisoning fatalities are immediate and rising in number around the world. You can die from barium (or strontium) poisoning by firing 'non toxic' ammunition in a confined environment because these toxins are asymptomatic until well after you have acquired a lethal dose.

So you will never acquire a lethal exposure to lead from firing lead containing ammunition "in a totally confined environment", but 'non toxic' ammunition fume can indeed kill you.


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## JimP (Feb 8, 2002)

One of the first actions that the new director, Ryan Zinke took was to rescind the ban.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...nal+Rifle+Association+of+America&sf59726394=1


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## 10x25mm (Nov 12, 2016)

jimp said:


> One of the first actions that the new director, Ryan Zinke took was to rescind the ban.
> https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...nal+Rifle+Association+of+America&sf59726394=1


What a difference an election makes!


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Jim thanks for posting that. I knew that things good were coming from that man when he rode into work the first day on horse back with a cowboy hat on his head.

I saw that on another site the other day but lost track of it before I could post it.


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## JimP (Feb 8, 2002)

multibeard said:


> Jim thanks for posting that. I knew that things good were coming from that man when he rode into work the first day on horse back with a cowboy hat on his head.
> 
> I saw that on another site the other day but lost track of it before I could post it.


Yeah, kinda cool riding along with his uniformed rangers.
Next, a bit of re-engineering of the endangered species land control boondoggle.


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

multibeard said:


> Jim thanks for posting that. I knew that things good were coming from that man when he rode into work the first day on horse back with a cowboy hat on his head.
> 
> I saw that on another site the other day but lost track of it before I could post it.


A real good sign is, Frenchriver disagreed with it. You know its good for the country.


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