# Simmons Scope Question



## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Has anyone had any expierence with the *NEW MASTER SERIES *Aetec?
I've been shooting the old version of the Aetec, 2.8-10x44 for quite some time. I'm happy with the Aetec scopes that I have, but the wife's going to let me buy another  .

I'm interested in the *NEW Master Series Atec 4-14x44SF scope with the Illuminated Truplex.*
I've been unable to talk with anyone that has one.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

I would spend my money on the mueller illumated model 

they have great glass and are well built scopes and are a sponser here as well.. i own 5 of them now and will keep on giving them my money in the future


http://www.muelleroptics.com/4-16x50IGR.htm


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## fmsniper (Oct 23, 2005)

I shoot allot and have broken 3 simmons scopes on a 35 whelen, I would look at another company


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Scrap the Simmons. I love my Mueller. Same price range but far superior optics. My old man put a Simmons on his Rem 7mm mag after he busted his OLD Bushnell. He absolutely HATES it. Granted, his vision isn't very good any more. He likes my Mueller and Leupold VXIII.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

I gotta say the same thing as the rest here....look into getting a Mueller.

I haven't got one yet myself, but have checked out one of my friends scopes...pretty decent glass....even better is their price!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## snaggs (Jul 20, 2005)

Son"s friend has a Simmons now...don't know what model...but gotta be 10 years old...he shoots a Remington 30/06..I have shot his gun at practice and I really like the eye/relief and optics..............However put this scope on a 7mm/Mag and I don't know if it will hold up.......I shoot a 7mm/Mag Sako with a VarX111 and this has been just fine for me....Nephew just bought ...last year a Mueller...took it out to Wyoming...and bagged an Antelope...and a Cow Elk...a far and close shot...he really liked the Mueller...He goes to a 34,000 acre private land area..owned by one of his friends..in 5 years of application he has yet to get a Bull Elk permit....difficult choice...but the Mueller would be my choice if you don't have the $$$$$ to spend and don't do a terrible lot of hunting....save your pennies...and in 10 years buy something else ( update )


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## akmountainman (May 11, 2005)

Where are these muellers made?


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Japan


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

WOW ! 

I guess that I'm the only one that has had good luck with the Simmons Aetec's that I've got.
Thanks for the information guys. I'll check out the other scopes.


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## wrenchman (Jun 23, 2003)

i have 4 simmons no magnum guns i have had one well over 10 years they are also made by the same company that makes redfield and weaver so keep that in mind.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

wrenchman,

I'm only using them on muzzleloaders. Only thing that I hunt with except for the pistol. Very rarely on the pistol though.
My shooting is rarely under 120 yds. Normally 140 to 160+.
I have 3 of the Aetec's in 2.8-10x44. Used them for years with no trouble.


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## JAS (Nov 16, 2005)

I shoot a M70 300 Win Mag and I have a Simmons Whitetail Expedition 3x9x42 on top of it. So far, the scope has served me well. It was about $180. I bought it before I learned more about scopes and different quality. However, decided not to change it because it hits were it is aimed at. Aint broke, dont fix it IMO. Ths year alone, I have shot a 3x2 blacktail at 167 yards, 1 shot. A 2x2 blacktail at 130 yards, 2 shots. 1 cow elk at 40 yards, 1 shot. 1 whitetail buck at 20 yards, 1 shot. At the range I get 1-2 inch groups at 100 pretty routinely with factory Remington Core Lokts in 180 grains. That serves my purposes pretty nicely.


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## Burksee (Jan 15, 2003)

ENCORE said:


> WOW !
> 
> I guess that I'm the only one that has had good luck with the Simmons Aetec's that I've got.
> Thanks for the information guys. I'll check out the other scopes.


I currently have two Simmons and one Mueller. My Simmons are one Aetec and 2 Whitetail series. No problems with any of them. My Mueller is new this past season and I was very happy with it. I do like the illuminated "red dot" feature on the Mueller.


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## Sib (Jan 8, 2003)

Aetec is the best offering from Simmons and it's a pretty decent scope in that $150-$180 price range. I was looking at a Mueller illuminated and compared the two side by side. Imo, there was a clarity and brightness difference between the two scopes and that was the deciding factor. I went home with the Aetec, tho I had every intention of purchasing the Mueller. I went through my decision process in Oct. of '04, fwiw.

Most of the Simmons line I won't touch, but the Aetec impressed me, I've been pleased with the scope and picked up another this past Sept. which I put on a muzzleloader, but haven't shot the combo yet.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

JAS said:


> I shoot a M70 300 Win Mag and I have a Simmons Whitetail Expedition 3x9x42 on top of it. So far, the scope has served me well. It was about $180. I bought it before I learned more about scopes and different quality. However, decided not to change it because it hits were it is aimed at. Aint broke, dont fix it IMO. Ths year alone, I have shot a 3x2 blacktail at 167 yards, 1 shot. A 2x2 blacktail at 130 yards, 2 shots. 1 cow elk at 40 yards, 1 shot. 1 whitetail buck at 20 yards, 1 shot. At the range I get 1-2 inch groups at 100 pretty routinely with factory Remington Core Lokts in 180 grains. That serves my purposes pretty nicely.



I have this same Simmons, bought it from www.Natchezss.com for $100. They still have some 1.5-6x32mm models at that price. It was on my 700mls and it is temporarily on my Encore. I am very impressed with this scope, and I'm generally not that impressed with much of what Simmons has to offer. It's a bit big and heavy compared to others in that class, so it will go back on the Rem muzzleloader this winter. Simmons no longer offers this scope, but it has basically the same glass as the Aetecs...aspherical lenses and all that.


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## JAS (Nov 16, 2005)

Swamp Monster said:


> I have this same Simmons, bought it from www.Natchezss.com for $100. They still have some 1.5-6x32mm models at that price. It was on my 700mls and it is temporarily on my Encore. I am very impressed with this scope, and I'm generally not that impressed with much of what Simmons has to offer. It's a bit big and heavy compared to others in that class, so it will go back on the Rem muzzleloader this winter. Simmons no longer offers this scope, but it has basically the same glass as the Aetecs...aspherical lenses and all that.


Swamp,

I have one of those 1.5-6 on my Knight 50 cal. So far, no problems as well. Good performer and provides good confidence for me. I bought that one in NY about 4 years ago for about $80 I think. Killed two deer with it. Aimed for the neck on one at about 60. Money. The other was a solid heart shot at about 40. Ran 35 yards and went down as well. I try not to get caught up with people saying that my gear will not work. I solely base my experiences with my gear and go from there. Again, if it works for you, dont fix it. I know a gentlemen who has a VX-3 sitting in a box at home. He bought a used 7mm with a Baush and Lomb scope. Took it to the range with the old scope on it. Liked it so much that he does not want to remove it. He is saving the Leupold for another rifle I suppose.

Thanks,
JAS


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## yooperkenny (Jul 13, 2004)

Although I don't have experience with the particular scope you're looking at, I can tell you like others have that Simmons riflescopes have worked well for me. The Whitetail 3x9x42 was my entry level scope when I first started deer hunting and didn't know how "hooked" I'd become. I put an 8 Point 3x9x40 on my son's rifle for the same reason. Between them, these setups have killed quite a few deer.

The idea of an illuminated reticle sounds very cool for dawn and dusk scenarios.

And you're right on that if your gear works for you it makes no difference what the heck it cost or what anyone else thinks. Results speak for themselves.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Sib said:


> Aetec is the best offering from Simmons and it's a pretty decent scope in that $150-$180 price range. I was looking at a Mueller illuminated and compared the two side by side. Imo, there was a clarity and brightness difference between the two scopes and that was the deciding factor. I went home with the Aetec, tho I had every intention of purchasing the Mueller. I went through my decision process in Oct. of '04, fwiw.
> 
> Most of the Simmons line I won't touch, but the Aetec impressed me, I've been pleased with the scope and picked up another this past Sept. which I put on a muzzleloader, but haven't shot the combo yet.


I'm glad that you posted. Compairing side by side made the difference for you.
The Simmons that I'm looking at: AETEC, 4-14x44SF is available with the Illuminated Truplex from Cabela's for $280. It weighs 12.8 oz.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Here ya go Encore...$227
http://www.natchezss.com/category.c...prodID=SN512105&CFID=1744336&CFTOKEN=65070600

I never buy glass until I check Natchez. Usually you can always beat Cabela's or BPS on optics. I have purchased a lot of stuff from Natchez and have been very happy with everything along with their customer service.

Unfortunately, that model is out of stock but they are usually good at getting product in.


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## Sib (Jan 8, 2003)

I'm glad I was able to do the side by side, because I probably would have purchased differently had I not. I even had another person look through the two and their opinion was the same as mine. 

I think Mueller just made some changes and moved mftg from China to Japan, which probably means they've ratched up the quality even more. I'll give Mueller another look when I need new glass, but I'm quite pleased with my Aetecs especially with their friendly price, got the last one for $90.


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## Jacob Huffman (Sep 13, 2004)

I have had a simmons 44 mag scope on my 30-06 for over 15 years.It has performed flawlessly...I purchased another 44 mag scope and put it on my .300 wsm and it has performed flawlessly.I did put a pro diamond on my ultra slugger but did not like it and got rid of it before the season even started.It handeled the recoil fine but I only shot it about 10 times..


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## tedshunter (Dec 27, 2004)

I have a Simmons Deerfield 4x32 on my Remington 870.I have shot many 3 in.magnums in the 22 years I have have owned the gun and scope.So I cant knock Simmons since I have had no problems what so ever,does not fog up.The only thing that is not as good as your more expensive scopes is the light gathering ability But if you cant see out of your scope, it is more than likely past shooting time anyway.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

tedshunter said:


> I have a Simmons Deerfield 4x32 on my Remington 870.I have shot many 3 in.magnums in the 22 years I have have owned the gun and scope.So I cant knock Simmons since I have had no problems what so ever,does not fog up.The only thing that is not as good as your more expensive scopes is the light gathering ability But if you cant see out of your scope, it is more than likely past shooting time anyway.


tedshunter,

Most of the older scopes have much more poor light gathering capabilities than models made just 5 years ago.
Newer scopes with increased "Exit Pupil" are coming out every day.
At the recommendation of a friend, I compaired the Simmons Aetec, 2.8-10x44 with the Bushnell Elite 4200, 2.5-10x50. Bushnell states on their web site that its "The brightest scope in the world. Period."
In compairing the exit pupil between the two, the Simmons posts 15.4-4.5, whereas the top of the line from Bushnell posts [email protected]/[email protected]. There's a big difference in the price of these. Simmons 2.8-10x44 Aetec (w/Ill) $250 vs the Bushnell Elite 4200, 2.5x10x50 (w/firefly) $530. (Cabela's guys)
I stated that the wife was going to let me purchase another scope, but if I have to mortgage the farm for it...... well you know  . I might have to be a little sneeky. Suggestions?  
This is why I'm researching with this post. Scopes have changed considerably over just the last few years. There's a lot of "shooters" out there.
While considering my purchase of the 4-14x44 Simmons Aetec, because of the higher magnification, the exit pupil is 12.5 - 3.1. This may present somewhat of a problem for the hunting and ranges which I most generally have to shoot.
I'll be checking out some of the higher end (priced) scopes to compare stats.
It also appears that I'm going to have to actually compare the differences at a sporting goods store. Hands on.
I'm still reading. There's a lot of great information being shared here!


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

The Zeiss Conquest line has excellent optics, at a reasonable price. All the parts are shipped to the US and then assembled here.


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## fmsniper (Oct 23, 2005)

I am sure with any brand there are good products and bad, I can only speak for my experience, that I broke 3 on a 35 whelen, I do have one I forgot about that is on an old 3006 it still works.. But in a another word you can look at any military sniper, long-range hunter, bench rest, and most all professional hunters no one use Simmons, mostly Leupold, nightfore, Nikon, Zies, B&L, Burris, some Bushnell, super sniper.
No tasco or Simmons scopes, old tasco Super snipers were used but they have been sold to a new company.

all in all simmons is a cheap low end scope- IMO the scope is the most important part of the gun and should cost more than the rifle, then again I shoot long range tactical mostly...

My scopes of choice are, High $ to low

Nightforce
Leupold
IOR
Sightron S-3
Nikon
Burris
Super sniper
Busshnell
Meuller


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

IMO the scope is the most important part of the gun and should cost more than the rifle,


I TOTALLY agree. I've got a $500 Savage 116 in Stainless that has a $750 VXIII scope on it. The gun can only shoot what the shooter sees!


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

fmsniper said:


> I am sure with any brand there are good products and bad, I can only speak for my experience, that I broke 3 on a 35 whelen, I do have one I forgot about that is on an old 3006 it still works.. But in a another word you can look at any military sniper, long-range hunter, bench rest, and most all professional hunters no one use Simmons, mostly Leupold, nightfore, Nikon, Zies, B&L, Burris, some Bushnell, super sniper.
> No tasco or Simmons scopes, old tasco Super snipers were used but they have been sold to a new company.
> 
> all in all simmons is a cheap low end scope- IMO the scope is the most important part of the gun and should cost more than the rifle, then again I shoot long range tactical mostly...
> ...


Sniper,
There's a lot of great scopes and a lot of good scopes available.
Granted, I'm not a "sniper", (no training, age, eye sight) and, I don't put the scopes on anything other than a muzzleloader.
Both of the *Simmons Aetec 2.8-10x44* that I have are mounted on muzzleloaders. I've got one more on another rifle that I dont' shoot.
For an old guy, both of the rifles shoot 1 1/2" groups or less at a measured 100 yds. They do this consistently.
The Aetec that I currently have on my Encore, I though I broke at one time. I got talked into buying a rifled barrel for my 11-87 by a buddy. So I bought the barrel and mounted this Simmons Aetec to the shotgun cantalever. Second day of the hunt, I leaned the shotgun up againt one of the legs on the blind to reach up and unlock the door. When I did, evidently I made a big mistake in where I leaned the gun up. The gun tipped over and on its way down, it hit one of the cross braces on the blind. I just figured "oh, oh" until I picked up that gun. When it fell, it hit on the very front of the top of the scope. In doing so, it bent the canteliver mount so bad, that the back (eyepiece) of the scope was almost 3" higher in the air. It went from "oh, oh" real quick to something I won't print here.
When you looked through the scope, the complete end of the barrel filled the scope. Bent the front of the scope edge down also.
Long story shorter, I had to go get the Knight, which was what I should have been using anyway.
I removed that scope, got extremely lucky and straightened out the cantilever mount. I remounted the scope and zeroed the slug gun again.
The amaising thing was, there was no internal damage to the scope.
Right back to driving tacks again. Although I never hunted deer with the shotgun again. When I purchased my Encore, I just said what the heck and mounted that same Simmons Aetec on the Encore.
It still shoots 1 1/2" groups at a measured 100 yds.
Now, maybe I just got lucky. A close friend that I have, has had two different guns tip over. He was in a hurry getting out of the house both times, leaned the rifles up against the kitchen counter and they fell over. Both scopes were damaged, but, both were sent back to Simmons and they were replaced.
A good friend that hunts with me usually brings his boys. Great kids! Both of the boys had Nikon scopes. One couldn't be zeroed and that boy switched to a Bushnell. The other boy has had great luck with his Nikon.
If I were to start shooting a 300 win mag. or 338, I'd certainly be looking at different scopes. Probably a Leo or Swarv.
I've got a number of friends that purchased Simmons Aetec's. Most are all muzzleload hunters and purchased the scopes, some time back, because of the extended eye relief. They were getting tired of black and blue eyes and nozes. They are still using their original Aetec's.
Thank you for the information that you've been providing. Now, as a "sniper", IF you only had one scope to choose from for your type of shooting, what would it be? Just cureous.


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## weatherby (Mar 26, 2001)

QuakrTrakr said:


> The Zeiss Conquest line has excellent optics, at a reasonable price. All the parts are shipped to the US and then assembled here.



I have also heard stuff on these scopes, but then again i have never heard anything bad on the aetec scopes till now


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## fmsniper (Oct 23, 2005)

ENCORE, I have never tried the aetec line of Simmons scope??? Mine were lower end scope.

If I had only one scope?
and I could afford it on my military pay?? on average these are $2000.00 or more


ooooo definately a USO










http://www.usoptics.com/sub_pages/scopes.php


we in the Operator community feel that these are some of the best scopes in the world for tactical use.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

get in the loop buddy 

The uso optics lost in recent test the marines jsut adopetd the schmit& benders and wellas the some navy elite teams cost of scope is close to 2600.00 and far surappsed the uso for reapateablity, low light and moa adj and more.......


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

Pretty funny. We went from $150 Simmons to a $2600 scope. :lol:


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## fmsniper (Oct 23, 2005)

We all know what the marines did with S&B as well as what the Canadian Snipers did but the question was---- what would my pick be not the Marines!! so get a life.


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## Burksee (Jan 15, 2003)

Ya'all need to chill! No need to get nasty The thread is about someone looking for information about *"Simmons"* scopes. If you cant supply some useful information I'd suggest keeping your snide remarks and negative opinions to yourselves! :gaga: 

BTW - Dont any one person take offense, this post is directed to more than one member!


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## fmsniper (Oct 23, 2005)

I agree, just hate when folks try to bushwak threads with coments like "get in the Loop", but you are right...I can retract my get a life statement and sustain the answer it was my pick not the entire militarys.....but back on track..


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## Burksee (Jan 15, 2003)

fmsniper said:


> I agree, just hate when folks try to bushwak threads with coments like "get in the Loop", but you are right...I can retract my get a life statement and sustain the answer it was my pick not the entire militarys.....but back on track..


That's why this site offers the very nice option of a "PM" (*private message) Thanks for being civil!


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## JAS (Nov 16, 2005)

Marine here. Every year us Marines have to qualify with open sights on the M16A2 and the 9mm Beretta. Dont know what optics the infantry (recon and FAST) is using for their sniper rifles, but from what I have seen and heard in Iraq and Afghanistan, it seems to be working. :evil: But when it comes to our troops, only the very best will do. And talk about testing equipment. Thats the acid test for sure. Sorry to get off subject.

Now on subject. Have 1 simmons and it works good.  

JAS


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

iam sorry if i offend you  no bushwacking


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## fmsniper (Oct 23, 2005)

its all good, the marines for years have used Unertle and some USO Scopes, Army mostly Simrad and Leupold.. the S&B refered to is the newer model Tac series, it is a Heck of a scope...But in my preferance I still love the USO, you can hammer nails with it, no pun intended....

but back on track... I have no doubt that the ATEC Simmons scope works well for some of you folks, My point is that we military, and LE tactical personnel who live by our Glass do not use Simmons do to the Glass not up to par with our standards. I do know some LE sniper that use Burris TAC, Nikon Tac, and Bushnell 4200 series.

so take for what it is worth.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

ENCORE said:


> tedshunter,
> 
> Most of the older scopes have much more poor light gathering capabilities than models made just 5 years ago.
> Newer scopes with increased "Exit Pupil" are coming out every day.


exit pupil is simply the objective size divided by the magnification. there are no better exit pupils today than there were yesterday. exit pupil only tells you how much light *can* be passed along. then you factor quality of glass, coatings, etc.

nonethless, the exit pupil on a 8x40mm leupold will be the same as the exit pupil on a 8x40mm tasco - that is - 5 mm. and the exit pupil on a 10x50mm scope is the same - 5mm. all have the potential to transmit the same amount of light. that's where quality components come into play.

consider that the average 30 year old has a day time exit pupil diameter of around 4-5mm. a scope used in the daytime, with an exit pupil of 5mm, will gather as much or more light than you can actually see. that same 30 year old might have a night time pupil diameter of 7mm. so 5mm is pretty good still (considering that it takes approximately 1/2 hour for eyes to fully adjust from daytime to nighttime pupil size). now, your average 50 year old has a night time pupil diameter of around 5mm. certainly any scope with an exit pupil larger than that is overkill - its going to be directing light on the iris as well. for light transmission purposes, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to get a scope with an exit pupil greater than 7mm.

for hunting applications, objective size can be a limiting factor. a 1.5-6 power, 32mm objective scope might be the best all around hunting scope there is, imo, and could be used for 300 yard coyotes as well as 30 yard whitetails.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Ok, I checked out the Mueller scopes. Made the drive over to Jay's. I'm a little cautious on the Mueller. I've no idea how long they've been being produced.
Well I found out why no one here has written about the new *MASTER SERIES AETEC*.
Simmons hasn't released them yet.
I only hunt with a muzzleloader. ONE SHOT, ONE KILL. So any new scope that I purchase will be used only on a muzz.
Where I hunt, long range shots, and low light conditions require me to use a good scope that I can see through. Especially in low light conditions. I just happen to have had great luck with the Simmons Aetec's that I currently have, 2.8x10x44.
Thanks for the advice.


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## deputy (Feb 2, 2002)

ENCORE, I tell yah what I will give yah my new in the box mueller to try out how is that for a deal... yo upay shipping to and fromm my house you can use it for the next 3 months.......

no strings just shoot it........


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

ENCORE said:


> Most of the older scopes have much more poor light gathering capabilities than models made just 5 years ago.
> Newer scopes with increased "Exit Pupil" are coming out every day.
> At the recommendation of a friend, I compaired the Simmons Aetec, 2.8-10x44 with the Bushnell Elite 4200, 2.5-10x50. Bushnell states on their web site that its "The brightest scope in the world. Period."
> In compairing the exit pupil between the two, the Simmons posts 15.4-4.5, whereas the top of the line from Bushnell posts [email protected]/[email protected] There's a big difference in the price of these. Simmons 2.8-10x44 Aetec (w/Ill) $250 vs the Bushnell Elite 4200, 2.5x10x50 (w/firefly) $530. (Cabela's guys)
> ...


Still listening. Might take the offer up on the 'no strings' 3 mo. trial.


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

I picked up a Leupold VX-III 4.5x14x50 at Jays for $529. Regularly it's $679. I think it was a last years model. Now THAT is a bright scope!


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## Rusher (Jan 6, 2006)

I've noticed this be the pratice of alot sportsman, they will purchase a high dollar rifle and top it off with a cheap scope. Has anyone else ever noticed this.


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## Sib (Jan 8, 2003)

Rusher said:


> I've noticed this be the pratice of alot sportsman, they will purchase a high dollar rifle and top it off with a cheap scope. Has anyone else ever noticed this.


Perhaps, but inexpensive and cheap are two different things and easy to discern when looking through the glass. Have you looked through an Aetec?


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Sib said:


> Perhaps, but inexpensive and cheap are two different things and easy to discern when looking through the glass. Have you looked through an Aetec?


Sib,
That's why I own my existing Aectc's. They're clear, easy to shoulder, quick to the eye. I'm not certain about all this eye relief data. Some of the scopes, other than Simmons, have a fixed eye relief. Others can vary an inch+. The variance might make a substantial difference when wearing light weight hunting clothes in the early season, then heavy clothes during the late season. For that reason, I'd be inclined to go with a fixed eye relief.
That Simmons, 4x14x44 w/ill, is listed in Cablea's for $279. The current listed price of my older Aetec's is running around $209. Never had a problem with any of them. Its supposed to be Simmons top scope.
I guess that you can have a $2,600 scope as shown by Sniper, an $1,800 Swarovski or a $104 Tasco World Class, and have a perfect scope or one that you just can't live with. *I'd much certainly rather have to replace a $300 scope vs a $2,600 scope!* 
Now, for me, if my wife had even the remotest thought that I was going to spend $2,600 or $1,800 on a scope...     :16suspect  She'd be the one with the hammer. Guess which one I'd be?!
Now, you guys that are working vs us retired guys, you'll learn to shop a little more wisely.
I might be able to get away (might have to kiss-up a little/lot ) with a Leupold VXIII. Have to handle one though. I'm impressed with the Bushnell, Firefly. I think every scope manufacturer is going to try that one. Just a flash light for a minute and you have an illuminated crosshair. No batteries to leak, run down or forget. Buddy has one and I'm going to check his out again.
The current Aetec's that I have are consistent and will print 1 1/2" groups all day (muzz only guys). We're all the same. No one likes or can handle change very well. Habits are hard to break. That's probably why I'm so interested in the New Aetec, but still listening.......


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## QuakrTrakr (Apr 4, 2001)

It sounds like you made up your mind


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