# Fished PC This Morning



## flyfishinchristian (Oct 5, 2006)

Visited a section on PC this morning. I was worried that water may have gotten messed up with the rain, but it was running clear.










The irony is that I drove over 30 minutes to try and find some trout to catch, and while I did spook one out from an undercut bank, I only caught two fish: a little creek chub and this red eye...











There were tiny little mayflies coming off the water occasionally, probably a size 20 fly, but I used a woolly bugger to get the creek chub and caught the rock bass on a stone-fly nymph.


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## DaveMc883 (Feb 16, 2009)

I was in the lower sections of the creek this morning, had my family there as well, caught a 9" Brown, a 7" Rainbow, missed a few bites, had some hook-ups (including a 10-12" Brown) that didn't make it in. It was a little muddy for PC but fishable. Flies were a tough go due to the cloudiness, spoons and spinners excel in the lower visibility situations. I have tried a few sections of the river and have had the most success in the lower half of the creek.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Fished a bit this morning, and came upon a real good run that was loaded with browns 9 to 16 inches. Used a 7' 4wt with an 8 ft leader tapered down to a 6x tippet. The fly was a size 20 pheasant tail with a tungesten bead. I added a BB about 18 inches above the fly to help it get down quickly below the fast surface water. I used the Liesering technique to suspend the PT nymph off the bottom and then let the curret swing it to the surface.

I crab walked to and hid in grass about 3 inches wide and 4 ft tall (Ornimental grass someone planted). Doing my best to keep a real low profile. The stuff grew right along the bank. Thru the tall grass and over the water was about a foot and half of my fly rod. Total stealth kept me from spooking the fish..... the rewards were worth it. 

A nice somewhat chilly morning to say the least....

(Pic of brown below is a little over 15")


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## DaveMc883 (Feb 16, 2009)

I know that spot, I missed a decent Brown there the other morning. I caught a rainbow upstream from there. I notice the same pattern with fish there, when I bring the presentation from the bottom up the fish seem to like that. I catch a lot of fish dropping down into a hole or space and pulling it up and out, as opposed to cast and retrieve fishing.


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## DE82 (Nov 28, 2007)

Silverexpress said:


> Fished a bit this morning, and came upon a real good run that was loaded with browns 9 to 16 inches. Used a 7' 4wt with an 8 ft leader tapered down to a 6x tippet. The fly was a size 20 pheasant tail with a tungesten bead. I added a BB about 18 inches above the fly to help it get doown quickly below the fast surface water. I used the Liesering technique to suspend the PT nymph off the bottom and then let the curret swing it to the surface.
> 
> I crab walked to and hid in grass about 3 inches wide and 4 ft tall (Ornimental grass someone planted). Doing my best to keep a real low profile. The stuff grew right along the bank. Thru the tall grass and over the water was about a foot and half of my fly rod. Total stealth kept me from spooking the fish..... the rewards were worth it.
> 
> ...


I fished that's stretch in the earlier summer I think  

I might be out tomorrow evening.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Here's the run I was talking about. See me in it?


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## Echolalia (Mar 10, 2009)

Has anyone fished PC in the evening and had any luck recently? I'm planning my first trip to PC later this week after work and don't really know what to expect.
Can I access a wadable/fishable part of the creek from Tienken road? I'm looking at google maps and it looks like theres a parking lot just off a path that runs along the river.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Seriously, let's take this pic a part, and each of us present the following....

How would you....

1. Approach this
2. Fish it
3. Fight a fish in it
4. ?

-----------------------------------------
For one, I'd probably go to this spot 1 hr before sunrise or basically before any other fisherman gets a chance at disturbing the water.

Next, I'd stay off the water as much as possible and just observe. The beauty of trout fishing, is that you can see the fish. As a fly fisherman, I'd fish it with a dry. Casting to spots in the picture that would likely hold fish.

I'd keep an eye on the water temps too. Because of the chubs and redeye, I can conclude that this is a warm stretch of the river, probably too warm for trout during the day. Thus, with our colder nights, the early morning will be the best.

If this stretch has the following in this order.....

1. Food
2. Sheltering, feeding, and prime lies
3. Cold (68 and below) oxygenated water
4. It's away from the trail and doesn't see much traffic

Then you can be sure your chances are real good at catching a trout!


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## Echolalia (Mar 10, 2009)

Silverexpress said:


> Seriously, let's take this pic a part, and each of us present the following....
> 
> How would you....
> 
> ...


This was a wonderfully brief, yet effective analysis of the photo. As a beginner this was one of the more valuable "lessons" that I have come across.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Thanks.

You have to get really good at reading the environment. It can hold a lot of clues, and you can apply this to any animal that you hunt.

To continue on, as the sun begins to light the water, I'd probably switch to a smaller fly. Like a midge, BWO, or a gnat pattern this time of year. Floatant is a key for dry fly fishing. The liquid silicone stuff never worked for me and just by accident I discovered the powdery type. Works great. If you come upon riffley water deeper then your knee's, I'd suggest switching to a nymph. If you step in the knee deep water, and then say "ah ha, Silverexpress said nymph this". It's too late! Comeback tomorrow. Ants, hoppers, and other terrestials are also a good bet. Just keep an eye out for them.

Fishing this stretch would not be a 1 day affair. I'd probably stick with it if it fullfilled most of the requirements I listed above. I'd fish it for the season. Why? From experience, this picture only tells 1/100th of the story. The undercut banks could be a gold mine of trout over 20", but how do you get to them? Just that question can take you years to answer. Or at certain times of the year there could be a phenomenal mid day hatch of bwo's that occurs no where else on the stream, bringing big brutes out of their hinding spots. Now that you know there are big brutes, where are they when there is no hatch??? Another question to be answered. Lastly, you could be here at the wrong time of the day. Point is, the more time you spend on this stretch the more secrets it will reveal to you.

Good luck guys/gals!


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## flyfishinchristian (Oct 5, 2006)

Ok, this is a fun idea. So here is what I did... for better or worse.










The water temp was around 62, the sky was overcast, and it was fairly early morning - so like you said, hopefully I beat the other fisherman out to the spot.

A. In this spot, on the second weekend in July I caught my first PC trout on a black woolly bugger. I fished it this time again with a black woolly bugger and switched to a black nymph later. No luck this time.

B. Way down yonder is where I scared a trout out from an undercut bank, probably in 10" range. The water was only about ankle deep and I assumed there wouldn't be any fish... oops.

C. This is about as close as I would get to fish (with dry or wet flies) the pool above the rocks. I think there is enough disturbance caused by the small drop off that the fish above it will not notice me. Plus they're supposed to be facing the into the current, looking away from there. I know Joe Humphreys says trout tend to hold and the front and rear of pools waiting for food, but in my experience they tend to hold to the banks more often then not.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Rod = 8' - 6' mid to full flex rod. Shorter you go the more limited nymphing and mending will be. I find a 7' to be optimum for my usage. The mid to full flex will allow you to cast short distances with little effort. Anything over 8', you might as well stick a flag on it when your in Paint Creek. Although there are times when I've used a 9' mid flex to reach a run or hole from the bank for nymphing.

Line = 4 to 6 wt. Make sure it's not flourescent in color. Chartruese is a no no.

Leader = I've gone as short as 7.5 ft, and as long 12 ft. Bottom line is you need a leader that can generate s-curves. 

Tippet 4x-6x = I tend to go with a length that is just on the border of piling. You don't want it to pile on top of the fly. It will spook fish, and if they do go after it, they'll tend to push the pile aside along with the fly. You just want it to generate nice s and c -curves.

Waders = 1 size bigger to allow room for crouching, waddling, getting down on your knees, crawling...etc...

Attack #A
Position #1 : After observing the stream, I stealthily make it up to point #1. Using a dry fly I start casting to current seams and quiet water. My general coverage is fan shaped. I'm up next to the bank, and down on one knee. NOT STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREAM! I'm a right handed caster so this side of the stream makes it awkward. As an option, I can slowly and quietly try and make it to the otherside to continue my attack.

Position #2 : Brings me right next to the rock fall. This is really a tough position for dry fly casting especially when I start casting to the far bank below the rocks. Why? Complex currents. It'll take some crazy mends to get a decent drift up here. But not impossible. I'd probably switch to a nymph, and cast directly below the rocks and let it dead drift down - all depends on the surface water. If it's all broken up, the fish won't be able to see you, the line or the rod. You'll be able to drop the nymph right above them. But I'd try the dry first dapping it up close, and throwing mends once I'm casting to the far bank.

Position #2': is a good position for dry's and nymph's (especially if your good at tuck casts), but you may spook a fish or two. You'll still need to stay low - maybe on two knees.

Attack B:
Position #3: To get here, climb back onto shore and make your way thru the bush to get to Position #3. You want to get at least 25' above the rock falls. I'd start with a downstream dead drift to the rocks, again in a fan like fashion as I search for fish. 

This position also sets me up for upstream casts to the upper section of this picture. 

Likewise, I'm low in the water (on two knees?), and probably a suttle side cast. My rod tip is about a 1-2 ft above the water as I get line out. Take your vest off if it gets in the way.

Move like a cat, and fish like a Heron.


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## Echolalia (Mar 10, 2009)

Silverexpress I think I have learned more from you than any other combination of sources. I owe any success that I have tomorrow to you. Also, my failures  I especially enjoy the photo-advice. Its as close to direct field advice that I think the internet can get me.

Anyway, I only have one flyrod, 9', size 5 with 5wt line and leader, so I'm using that. Chartruese is what's equipped, unfortunately, but why is this a bad thing? If the leader is long enough, will fish even notice the color of the line?

Also, I only know of one way to cast and that's the basic over-the-shoulder cast. Obviously this wont work in such a confined area. You mentioned tuck casts and side casts in your post (completely unfamiliar with both), but I don't see how anyone could effectively get a line out in this photo. The river looks like its 12 feet wide here, which means if I'm casting across the stream my rod tip upon completing a cast should be almost touching any trout that might be hanging out just below the surface.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Echolalia said:


> Silverexpress I think I have learned more from you than any other combination of sources. I owe any success that I have tomorrow to you. Also, my failures  I especially enjoy the photo-advice. Its as close to direct field advice that I think the internet can get me.
> 
> Anyway, I only have one flyrod, 9', size 5 with 5wt line and leader, so I'm using that. Chartruese is what's equipped, unfortunately, but why is this a bad thing? If the leader is long enough, will fish even notice the color of the line?
> 
> Also, I only know of one way to cast and that's the basic over-the-shoulder cast. Obviously this wont work in such a confined area. You mentioned tuck casts and side casts in your post (completely unfamiliar with both), but I don't see how anyone could effectively get a line out in this photo. The river looks like its 12 feet wide here, which means if I'm casting across the stream my rod tip upon completing a cast should be almost touching any trout that might be hanging out just below the surface.


Over the years, I've found that fly fishing is very similar to Golfing when it comes to equipment. Imagine golfing an entire course with a 9 wood, or a putter.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf_club_(equipment)


Similarly as you acquire knowledge of this fly fishing sport, you'll get to know the limitations of your equipment, and your setup.

And, you've pretty much identified the limitations of your 9 ft on Paint Creek.

You may have to change tactics and do 80% of your fishing nymphing. From my own experience, a 9 ft excels in that. You'll be able to swing split shots out into runs or dip nymphs directly overhead in fast riffles without getting too close. I've caught most fish over 15" on nymphs and streamers.

I really like dry fly fishing. Nothing like a little 12" trout jumping clear out of the water to suck down an emerger.

In regards to your fly line, flourescent colors reflect light really good. This would be bad if your high stick nymphing directly over holes.

As far as casting, the action of the rod, it's length, the fly line taper, the leader, tippet, and even the fly all have an affect on the casting. You can tailor each one to get a needed action.


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## Echolalia (Mar 10, 2009)

Silverexpress said:


> Over the years, I've found that fly fishing is very similar to Golfing when it comes to equipment. Imagine golfing an entire course with a 9 wood, or a putter.


I was afraid of that... I've been thinking of picking up an 8wt 10' rod for steelhead and salmon fishing. Now I have to consider getting a 3-4wt 6' rod for tight spaces. Not a good problem to have for a college student...





Silverexpress said:


> You may have to change tactics and do 80% of your fishing nymphing. From my own experience, a 9 ft excels in that. You'll be able to swing split shots out into runs or dip nymphs directly overhead in fast riffles without getting too close.


I have never nymphed before, but I believe I understand the theory enough to give a good effort on my first time out. From a couple sources online I have gathered that it is easiest (and unfortunately the least effective) to cast directly across the river and let the nymph sink with the current until it is directly below you on the stream. At this point you should pull up on the rodtip to pull the nymph up from the ground, and this is where a strike should occur. 
More effective but more difficult is casting upstream from where you stand and allowing the nymph to float back to your location, while continuously retrieving any excess slack. 

But even with a 6' rod I still see myself getting caught (repeatedly) in bushes that hang over and around the stream. You suggested nymphing with my 9'. Will tuck and side casts be effective in my scenario, provided I can figure out how to do them?


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Cast is really the wrong word. lol. it's more like a lob. A Tuck cast is an overhead cast with a very wide open loop. At about 10 o'clock you stop your wrist's (or arm's) downward motion during the foward portion and tug on the line and the nymph and splitshot will be driven before the fly line into the water. That's it!

You use the length of the rod, by holding it high to keep the line off the water, and strip in line as it comes toward you. These are short distance lobs. Not like 30-40-60' away, so there should not be much line to strip in.

You won't be doing any side casts with a 9' in Paint Creek (or at least in that section).

Do a search for Joe Humphrey and Tuck Cast or George Harvey and Tuck Cast.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Echolalia said:


> Silverexpress I think I have learned more from you than any other combination of sources. I owe any success that I have tomorrow to you. Also, my failures .


Echolalia,

The beautiful pictures, the romanticism, the legends, the books, the videos, and the experts...often leave out what I'm going to show you next.......


From the pic below...

A. 9 in Rainbow
B. 7 in. Chub
C. 9 in Brown
D. 20 in Brown watching you un hook yourself
E. Rabid muskrat eyeing you as food
F. Smelly dead deer carcass (at least you had better hope it is) :SHOCKED:
G. Poison Ivy, Wild Rose Bushes, Fly rod eating trees
H. Clouds of brain sucking mosquitos (bring a straw - it will appease them)
J. A fly fisherman around the bend who's lived all his life in one of those 
big houses - Just came thru before you and caught all the trout over
15".

To redeem myself, I will offer you a trip (along with me) to a river up North. A river that has trout jumping out of it. A day wherein you will catch trout till you passout from hunger or tiredness. $100 pays for the following - a warm motel room for one night (or if you have a tent and a sleeping bag - 2 nights for $30), a few Big Macs, and a handful of flies. I will even let you fish one of my fly rods (but you must fish it for the entire trip). Oh, and gas is on me. 

Don't waste your time on Paint Creek. It's a very technical stream that I would consider an intermediate to advance for Fly Fishing. One day up North and you'll be sold on the sport for life, and then you can come back to Paint Creek to ease the hunger.


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## Echolalia (Mar 10, 2009)

Thank you a bunch for the offer, but between school, work, and trying to prep for med school, I don't know how many free weekends I will have that aren't already occupied with some event. It is very appealing to see a pro in action and learn all the aspects of fly fishing that a person can't get from readings alone, so I'm hoping that sometime in the future I'll be able to take you up on that trip, but unfortunately right now I have too much on my plate to dedicate more than a morning or evening's worth of fishing here or there. In fact, I'm moving back to Kzoo this Saturday for school.

But despite all the difficulties and potential shortcomings the Paint Creek will bring, I'm still going to head up there before Saturday. Its funny: I haven't caught a single trout, or even anything worth writing home about (see: bigger than five inches, not a panfish) and I feel I'm already hooked for life. I enjoy the art of casting and reaching a zen-like state in trying to land the fly where I want it to land, in the precise manner that I have envisioned. Exploring rivers and streams is both exciting and tranquil, in a way that only a fisherman can understand. Of course catching a trophy or even experiencing the fight of a big guy is the climax of the fun, but there's a lot more to fishing than just fishing.

I mentioned earlier that I don't have too many free weekends, but I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear that two of my busy weekends are designated fishing vacations in September and October. One weekend I will be going to a friend's cottage in Roscommon to fish the Au Sable. The other weekend is reserved for fishing in the Muskegon river. Both trips will be riddled with rookie mistakes, I'm sure, but like I said, its still worthwhile just to be out there.

Anyway, if you know of any stretches on Paint Creek that a 9 ft fly rod would be workable, let me know. Heck, if anyone has any advice/hints at all for me on Paint Creek this time of year to maximize my chances, I'm all ears. I'm taking my dad out before Saturday and I'd like to show him a fish before I head back to school.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Excellent. It sounds like your well on your way to enjoying Fly Fishing. I've read the stats on those that take up this sport, and if I remember correctly 90% give up after a year out of frustration. I'd like to know what they do with all of that equipment!

I would suggest the park in downtown Rochester as a first outing. Your chances of catching trout in there is quite good.

There are open fields that will allow you to cast your 9' with minimal hangups. The only two things you need to watchout for are the ducks. They are a complete nuisance, so make sure you wash your hands if you touch the grass! The second thing, are the pedestrians behind you.

For a taste of the wilderness in someones backyard, the Tienken access you mentioned is a good place. Dutton Rd, Silverbell, and Clarkston Roads are also a sure bet. A hiking/biking trail parallels the stream all the way to Lake Orion, and it's dotted with trails and access points to the creek. Just be watchful of private property.

I saw flying black ants yesterday, and a few rises. Tied one on and was able to land a few. There was also a tiny white miller hatch and so a light tan colored caddis in a size 14-16 worked for me too.

Goodluck, and let us know how you fair.


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## BIG "D" (Sep 14, 2005)

I know that spot


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Echolalia said:


> It is very appealing to see a pro in action and learn all the aspects of fly fishing that a person can't get from readings alone


Just reread your reply on my laptop (bigger screen than pda). Eeegads, "Pro" I'm not. Lol. I just love this sport, that's all. 

Ironically, if I had offered this with some accreditation - licensed guide, having attended Penn States course in Fly Fishing, Orvis Fly Fishing classes...etc, and charged you $450 for 8 hrs not including lunch, or a ride, and no guarantee on catching any fish. I think you would have gone for it.


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## Echolalia (Mar 10, 2009)

Silverexpress said:


> Just reread your reply on my laptop (bigger screen than pda). Eeegads, "Pro" I'm not. Lol. I just love this sport, that's all.
> 
> Ironically, if I had offered this with some accreditation - licensed guide, having attended Penn States course in Fly Fishing, Orvis Fly Fishing classes...etc, and charged you $450 for 8 hrs not including lunch, or a ride, and no guarantee on catching any fish. I think you would have gone for it.


Ha no way man, not only am I busy but I'm also a poor college student who's paying his way through life. $450 dollars is far too rich for my blood. Heck, $200 dollars is too rich for my blood. Besides, I just want to know that I'm heading in the right direction; I'm patient. Whether I take $1000 worth of courses and guided trips or take the long route and do it all completely by myself, the fish can't hide forever.


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## DaveMc883 (Feb 16, 2009)

Silverexpress said:


> And, you've pretty much identified the limitations of your 9 ft on Paint Creek.
> 
> You may have to change tactics and do 80% of your fishing nymphing.


Fishing upstream is mostly confined, as a beginner it may be wise to start in a more open area and practice some of the casting techniques described here. One thing I know is that the number one way to catch a fish is to try. I have significant gear limitations, including no fly rod, but I can still find trout. You adapt as much as you can. This may be changes gear if you have the money or can find a deal on Craigslist, this may mean you have to work a little harder.
I tend to wade in my shoes or bare feet instead of buying waders. I use an UL rod, 5' with 6 lb. Flouro. The decreased stretch of the line helps hook sets and it's almost invisible in the water.
I like to fish with spinners and spoons. I often find that bass spoons or other non-trout specific spoons work very well for trout. 
For that picture, considering the faster, shallower current. I would work rooster-tail spinner along the left side edge from the spill down. I would place my cast right at the spill where the current slows along the bank. About 2 feet off the brush. the current will pull the spinner in but the longer you can ride the edge the better. I would expect trout to be looking to the sides to feed. They tend to sit on the edge of current, (back of pools/front of pools also) because they can get the benefits of the quicker water, and see the food that tends to settle in the slower water. They jump out, grab it, and go back.
If you catch a trout, that means it was feeding. Best to present something where they are likely to feed.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

flyfishinchristian said:


> There were tiny little mayflies coming off the water occasionally, probably a size 20 fly, but I used a woolly bugger to get the creek chub and caught the rock bass on a stone-fly nymph.


Your observation was correct. This was the key to catching trout that day.


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## Echolalia (Mar 10, 2009)

I hit up Paint Creek at the municipal park and later just off Tienken road on Wednesday evening, although I didn't catch anything. I didn't seem to be the only one with bad luck, though, as a couple people came off the creek and said they didn't get any bites.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

Here is something more sensible I can write about. 

http://www.nwalesflyfishingschool.com/videos/index.shtml#stalkingtroutalwen

Checkout the water this guy is fishing. It's about the same size as Paint Creek.

Hopefully this will help you out the next time you get a chance to fish the Paint.

I got stumped a few times this season too. That's what's so kool about the Paint - It's a challenge.


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## Echolalia (Mar 10, 2009)

Thanks for the resource. I'm actually on the other side of the state now, until next spring, so I will be applying these techniques to some local streams out here.


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## Silverexpress (Sep 6, 2006)

I've heard that the West side has some of the best fishing in the State. Especially for Salmon and Steelhead.

Forget Paint Creek. Lol. It's like you've just won a lotto for some awesome fishing.

I wish you the best!


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