# POLL: Large 1.5 or small 2.5 year old buck?



## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Slick Trick40 said:


> I killed a buck last year in Jackson county. It had a rack that looked similar to that one. It dressed out at 210lbs. From the body size, me and my buddy thought he was a 3-4 year old with bad antler genes. The DNR aged him at 2.5 because I had to turn the skull in for CWD testing


210 lbs. dressed is around 265 live weight. In that case I'd bet heavily on your age estimate of that deer being 3.5 or older as compared to the DNR tooth guessing routine. 

My understanding from speaking with a few different guys who used to farm deer is that up until about 15 years ago even the 2.5 year old bucks they were raising in a pen on optimal diets weren't reaching 250 lbs until after their 3rd birthday.


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## Slimits (Jun 30, 2014)

Would you just tell us the answer already? And what method did u use to age it? Dont trust the dnr age people. They sometimes are way off


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

November Sunrise said:


> The weight of the deer tells me what age he isn't (it's not physically possible for a 1.5 or 2.5 year old deer to grow fast enough to weigh what this deer did) but it doesn't tell me what age he is.


Maybe the deer just had a big appetite! I’ve mentioned this before on here on another thread. But we as humans are all different sizes and shapes at all ages. My oldest son was 10lbs 8oz and 24” long at birth. I love it when I see a tv hunter show a track and say that’s definitely a huge buck! What? What if it’s just a 1 or 2 year old with genetically big feet? We all come in different shapes and sizes and I’m sure deer do as well. The deer also could be heavy from eating way too much. I know that syndrome catches up with lots of humans as the majority of America is over weight. I’m curious what your going to say the age is and more curious how you came to the conclusion. There is only one way to accurately get the age and I doubt you have had enough time to go through the process. But definitely want to know how you came up with the age. Hopefully not judging by weight.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

johnhunter247 said:


> Maybe the deer just had a big appetite! I’ve mentioned this before on here on another thread. But we as humans are all different sizes and shapes at all ages. My oldest son was 10lbs 8oz and 24” long at birth. I love it when I see a tv hunter show a track and say that’s definitely a huge buck! What? What if it’s just a 1 or 2 year old with genetically big feet? We all come in different shapes and sizes and I’m sure deer do as well. The deer also could be heavy from eating way too much. I know that syndrome catches up with lots of humans as the majority of America is over weight. I’m curious what your going to say the age is and more curious how you came to the conclusion. There is only one way to accurately get the age and I doubt you have had enough time to go through the process. But definitely want to know how you came up with the age. Hopefully not judging by weight.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Last bear I harvested came back 3 years old by the tooth. I was surprised it was that young given the size. I asked the DNR and got a very informative response including study info. For age 3 bears the range was something like 150 to 370 lbs! Granted, bear are not deer, but goes along with your point.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Slimits said:


> Would you just tell us the answer already? And what method did u use to age it? Dont trust the dnr age people. They *sometimes* are way off


Sometimes ? lol. They get fawns and yearlings correct, after that it's like throwing a dart at the board.
(I took the liberty to bold the above word)

L & O


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

3.5


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## Slimits (Jun 30, 2014)

Liver and Onions said:


> Sometimes ? lol. They get fawns and yearlings correct, after that it's like throwing a dart at the board.
> (I took the liberty to bold the above word)
> 
> L & O


Lol. Yea i agree. But why is the poster not giving the answer? Do we have to wait till next week to see who gets kicked off survivor island?


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Slimits said:


> Would you just tell us the answer already? And what method did u use to age it? Dont trust the dnr age people. They sometimes are way off


I don't KNOW the answer. The only thing I know 100% is that it's not a 1.5 year old buck. Based on body size I'm 99+% certain that it's not 2.5, as it's very near a physical impossibility for a deer to reach that size at 2.5 years old.

We put this deer on two scales - one I bought about a decade ago at Cabelas. That scale showed it at 202 lbs. Then we weighed it a local processor and their scale had it 200.1 lbs. which equates to a roughly 250 lb live weight.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

johnhunter247 said:


> Maybe the deer just had a big appetite! I’ve mentioned this before on here on another thread. But we as humans are all different sizes and shapes at all ages. My oldest son was 10lbs 8oz and 24” long at birth. I love it when I see a tv hunter show a track and say that’s definitely a huge buck! What? What if it’s just a 1 or 2 year old with genetically big feet? We all come in different shapes and sizes and I’m sure deer do as well. The deer also could be heavy from eating way too much. I know that syndrome catches up with lots of humans as the majority of America is over weight. I’m curious what your going to say the age is and more curious how you came to the conclusion. There is only one way to accurately get the age and I doubt you have had enough time to go through the process. But definitely want to know how you came up with the age. Hopefully not judging by weight.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cementum annuli is not anywhere near 100% accuracy. There is no foolproof aging method. 

As I posted above, I don't know the deer's age, but at that body size I'd bet big money that it's at least 3.5. I couldn't believe that a rack which would probably have a hard time grossing 85 inches was attached to a deer that size. Just when I think I've seen it all something else comes along to mess with my expectations.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

November Sunrise said:


> Cementum annuli is not anywhere near 100% accuracy. There is no foolproof aging method.
> 
> As I posted above, I don't know the deer's age, but at that body size I'd bet big money that it's at least 3.5. I couldn't believe that a rack which would probably have a hard time grossing 85 inches was attached to a deer that size. Just when I think I've seen it all something else comes along to mess with my expectations.


Save that lower jaw. Or at least real good photo's of it.
Comparing it to ages you are more sure/comfortable with from the same area's jaws will give more clues in time.
It won't look like a yearling or two year olds if you have near accurate local samples.

If he's not well aged in years for Mi.. , you might have a pocket of poorer winter habitat he was in ,or he simply burned the candle at both ends rutting too hard and burned up any reserves before new years.
Them rear hams get thin after fat is gone.
The toll goes deeper though sometimes. When marrow starts getting robbed , the warning light comes on. Recovery can take a long time. Antler not a priority.
He's a great buck. And had a lot of hours into being a buck. 
However long he made it.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Just goes to show the difference between good ground in SLP vs the rest of the state. Even before you posted body pics, my immediate reaction was an average 2.5 year old, not “small”. After the body pics, I was leaning towards a smaller racked 3.5 year old, still not all that uncommon up north. I’d bet most guys that hunt the northern 2/3s of the state would have a similar response. 

We’ve been measuring live weights on most of our bucks for the last 10-15 years in NWLP and have yet to have a 2.5 year old buck come anywhere close to 200lbs live weight. Most are in the 150-175lb range. We’ve even had a few 3.5 year olds that didn’t break the 200lb mark.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

November Sunrise said:


> Cementum annuli is not anywhere near 100% accuracy. There is no foolproof aging method.
> 
> As I posted above, I don't know the deer's age, but at that body size I'd bet big money that it's at least 3.5. I couldn't believe that a rack which would probably have a hard time grossing 85 inches was attached to a deer that size. Just when I think I've seen it all something else comes along to mess with my expectations.


I can’t agree that he couldn’t be 1 1/2 or 2 1/2. I think he could be either. As far as horns if he is 3 maybe just bad genetics, nutrition, etc. There are so many variables that could come into play. I believe the theory that he couldn’t be a certain age because of weight has flaws. Maybe his mom or and dad are huge big boned animals or he has a monster appetite. Or maybe he is three with poor genetics. I would still guess max 2 1/2 but lean towards 1 1/2 with decent potential. Have you ever seen a fat baby or obese child? I have... Lets say he is 1 1/2 with larger parents. If he has a monster appetite he has had a year and a half to pack it on. If he is 2 1/2 he has had that much time to pack it on. That deer doesn’t show any characteristics of being older other than weight. Does he have huge feet? I firmly believe it’s a pretty tough task to age a deer. Especially live on the hoof. I shot a deer once that I thought was a giant coming towards me. I literally thought in my mind I was about to have an opportunity at a 200 class deer. His body was so small with a tiny neck that it made his horns look enormous. When I approached him I was stunned how tiny his body was and disproportionate he looked. At the time it was the largest buck antler wise I had ever killed. He was 13 incredible points(like a picket fence), long main beams and a beautiful set of horns. At the time I didn’t have much experience with mature bucks so when I seen him coming I was stunned and would have sworn he was a 5 year old plus. But he had the body of a 1 1/2 year old after inspecting him. I believe he was 1 1/2 or 2 1/2. I guess he could have been a three year old but I doubt it. He had no development at all that you look for on a deer to judge age. He was just plain scrawny. Which still to this day makes no sense to me. Judging from his horns he definitely had been getting some decent nutrition. It was in farm country.














I never had a cam picture of him. So nothing to judge by other than on the hoof. He ended up scoring low 170’s gross and weighed low 130’s gutted out. It was strange and had I known what I was dealing with he would have gotten a free pass because it’s exactly the kind of deer that has incredible genetics and could blow up into a giant. Although I was incredibly happy for the deer and opportunity I learned an incredible lesson that day. It was a great deer with the potential I will never know because I killed him to early. Complete misjudgment on my part because of inexperience at the time. All I seen was incredible head gear that looked twice as big because the body was so small. With my experience over the years I doubt I would make that mistake twice but they can be so tough to judge on the hoof with out cam pics. It is the best bone I’ve ever seen on a young deer in my life. My best guess is he was a two year old. I doubt I will ever be lucky enough to have a deer of that caliber with that much head gear as a two year old again. Here is a picture of the deer. 


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## JasonSlayer (Aug 4, 2009)

johnhunter247 said:


> If you hadn’t mentioned 1 1/2 or 2 my guess would have been 1 1/2 possibly 2. But leaning towards 1 1/2. Just from what I have learned about body characteristics hunting out west where you see lots of every age class between fawn and 5+ years old that would be my guess. I just feel by looking at that deer he is an undeveloped body which makes me think 1 1/2. Plus when I was watching the Michigan dnr age at the Jerome buck pole a few years ago everyone would guess before they said the age of each deer and every single person on every single deer guessed older then the deer was. There were several deer similar in size to the one your posting that aged at 1 1/2 by the dnr. So I’ll stick with older then his first birthday but not passed his second.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then you didnt see me there. That's a 2.5 year old deer in michigan hands down. If the poster would have asked 3.5 or 2.5 year old deer hands down everyone would have said 2.5. Its not that hard, his head gear is iffy for a 1.5 but his body gives it away.
2.5 for sure


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## JasonSlayer (Aug 4, 2009)

johnhunter247 said:


> If you hadn’t mentioned 1 1/2 or 2 my guess would have been 1 1/2 possibly 2. But leaning towards 1 1/2. Just from what I have learned about body characteristics hunting out west where you see lots of every age class between fawn and 5+ years old that would be my guess. I just feel by looking at that deer he is an undeveloped body which makes me think 1 1/2. Plus when I was watching the Michigan dnr age at the Jerome buck pole a few years ago everyone would guess before they said the age of each deer and every single person on every single deer guessed older then the deer was. There were several deer similar in size to the one your posting that aged at 1 1/2 by the dnr. So I’ll stick with older then his first birthday but not passed his second.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then you didnt see me there. That's a 2.5 year old deer in michigan hands down. If the poster would have asked 3.5 or 2.5 year old deer hands down everyone would have said 2.5. Its not that hard, his head gear is iffy for a 1.5 but his body gives it away.
2.5 for sure


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## sherman51 (Oct 28, 2018)

i've never seen a 1.5 with that much mass. I say 2.5. congrats to the lady. kudo's to you for getting her into the outdoors.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

johnhunter247 said:


> I can’t agree that he couldn’t be 1 1/2 or 2 1/2. I think he could be either. As far as horns if he is 3 maybe just bad genetics, nutrition, etc. There are so many variables that could come into play. I believe the theory that he couldn’t be a certain age because of weight has flaws. Maybe his mom or and dad are huge big boned animals or he has a monster appetite. Or maybe he is three with poor genetics. I would still guess max 2 1/2 but lean towards 1 1/2 with decent potential. Have you ever seen a fat baby or obese child? I have... Lets say he is 1 1/2 with larger parents. If he has a monster appetite he has had a year and a half to pack it on. If he is 2 1/2 he has had that much time to pack it on. That deer doesn’t show any characteristics of being older other than weight. Does he have huge feet? I firmly believe it’s a pretty tough task to age a deer. Especially live on the hoof. I shot a deer once that I thought was a giant coming towards me. I literally thought in my mind I was about to have an opportunity at a 200 class deer. His body was so small with a tiny neck that it made his horns look enormous. When I approached him I was stunned how tiny his body was and disproportionate he looked. At the time it was the largest buck antler wise I had ever killed. He was 13 incredible points(like a picket fence), long main beams and a beautiful set of horns. At the time I didn’t have much experience with mature bucks so when I seen him coming I was stunned and would have sworn he was a 5 year old plus. But he had the body of a 1 1/2 year old after inspecting him. I believe he was 1 1/2 or 2 1/2. I guess he could have been a three year old but I doubt it. He had no development at all that you look for on a deer to judge age. He was just plain scrawny. Which still to this day makes no sense to me. Judging from his horns he definitely had been getting some decent nutrition. It was in farm country.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems like you're crediting a lack of body size for age here but you're not willing to do the same in reverse. 

There is some subjectivity involved in all aging methods one of the primary reasons I don't worry about it that much. However, IMO, body size is far and away the most telling indicator of age in a free range deer. Their are exceptions to the rule but probability dictates as much certainty as you're likely to get, regardless of method.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

johnhunter247 said:


> I can’t agree that he couldn’t be 1 1/2 or 2 1/2. I think he could be either.
> ............


And I can't see how anyone can look at that rack or that body and think that it could be a 1 1/2 y.o. deer. Especially after posting those live camera photos.
Not trying to be difficult, but what are seeing you in those antlers that suggest 1 1/2 ? What are you seeing in that body that remotely suggests 1 1/2 ?
Now that the dressed weight has been posted, I would like to change my vote to 3 1/2.

L & O


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

Oh man this one really brought the experts out of the woodwork! 

I'm saying 2.5 but why do you say small?

Question, the racks around here have really gone downhill, very scraggly looking a lot more spikes spindly looking 6 & 8 points compared to some real beauties from years past, we have the best of all food sources acorns,
Soybeans alfalfa and corn! 

Some say that it's because of QDM and the removal of the good bucks out of the gene pool?

Any thoughts....
Can't wait to see the answer!



November Sunrise said:


> Our youngest daughter killed this buck Friday evening in Eaton County. Is he a large 1.5 or small 2.5? I’ll post the answer on Monday.
> View attachment 444677


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

November Sunrise said:


> *Cementum annuli is not anywhere near 100% accuracy. There is no foolproof aging method. *
> 
> As I posted above, I don't know the deer's age, but at that body size I'd bet big money that it's at least 3.5. I couldn't believe that a rack which would probably have a hard time grossing 85 inches was attached to a deer that size. Just when I think I've seen it all something else comes along to mess with my expectations.


Agree that neither Cementum Annuli nor Tooth Wear are 100% accurate at age 2 1/2+, but the Tooth Replacement method is 100% accurate at age 1 1/2. Only 1 1/2 year old deer will have a 3 - Cusped 3rd Premolar. That premolar is replaced with a 2-cusped tooth at age 2 1/2 so after that you have to rely on tooth wear to determine age.

I know Liver & Onions is a naysayer when it comes to aging deer by the tooth wear method but I am not. Everything is relative - including tooth wear and to a somewhat lesser degree, body weight. We have been weighing all of our deer and aging them by the tooth replacement and wear method for about 25 years now. I will either slit the cheeks and inspect the teeth when we kill a deer to make my estimate of age, or I will go ahead and just pull the jawbone and then take it to one or more DNR biologists or technicians to get their estimates. If there is any difference (and there has never been a difference of more than 1 year), I will save the jaw bone to have it inspected by a veterinarian who has worked with high-fence deer herds (where the ages are absolutely known) for decades and get his estimate. 

In one case, both the DNR biologist and the veterinarian aged a deer a year younger than I did and I felt so strongly about it that I paid the $25 and sent it in for CA analysis which confirmed my estimate.

As I mentioned earlier, if you look at the 3rd premolar you will know ABSOLUTELY if the deer is 1 1/2 or 2 1/2+. Given the size of that deer I can almost guarantee that it is 2 1/2+, but if you simply look at that 3rd premolar you would know for certain.

If you aren't weighing and aging all of your deer you are missing out on a big part of your deer hunting and deer management experience IMO.

Tools of the trade - notice the scales and jaw bone extraction tool hanging right there at the buck pole where they should be:


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Couple observations I’d like to make. In my neck of the woods in Hillsdale 1.5 yr old bucks are pretty recognizable. Body size is number #1 along with long legs and thinner body throughout is 95% most common. Spikes, 4’s, 6’s and 8’s are all in the mix in my area. Thinner spindley racks are the norm and usually always light in color. NS’s daughters buck resembles none of this for a slp buck. It’s weight, it’s rack and even the color of that bucks face says older buck. 3.5 yr old. Congrats to NS’s daughter. 


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

Liver and Onions said:


> *You're damn right I doubt things that just are not true*. Just like some stupid rumor about that CWD deer in the UP. Who made that crazy claim ? Proud to be that doubting Thomas.
> I'm not asking you to waste any time on me. So please use that option.
> Regarding the tooth wear aging.... I have *consistently* said almost anyone can get the 6 mo. old and 18 mo. old deer correct with tooth replacement. So yes, the DNR can age those deer correctly. After that's it's an estimate or guess. Close......within 2-3 years on older deer....probably, but a guess. Go ahead and claim you or the DNR can always get it correct if you want, but it isn't true and you know it.
> The DNR should label deer over 18 months as their best estimate. Their best guess. There have been multiple times where experienced DNR staff have been put to the test and they come up with different answers. No surprise there because the answer is not cut and dry.
> ...


Almost forgot L & O ... one more thing we really identify with you is your repeated attacks on those with differing opinions than you where you call them a "Liar" without actually using the word. You "don't believe it".... it "sounds like Bar Talk to me"...."it's just not true"..."I'll believe it when I see it", ad infinitum. If you had any ballz you would just come out and say it.

Thanks for not asking me to waste my time on you.


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## springIstrutfallIrut (Mar 30, 2012)

So if I was to guess age on this buck, from stand in a hunting situation, I would give him a pass assuming he's a tank bodied -pre rut- 2 1/2 yr old. I can't put a scale on him or look at tooth wear in that moment so what can I do ? Judge his body weight / body characteristics & his rack. I'm going for mature bucks in Eaton county generally 3 to 4 yr olds. Age is important to me but some of the rack size is as well. I would be comfortable letting him go even if there's a chance he was a 3 or 4 yr old and hoping to see him as a 4 or 5 yr old with an improved rack instead of potentially killing a future beast at 2 1/2. I know racks vary between individuals and are not the best way to solidly judge age but that rack just screams 2 1/2 to me and his head / face fit that age class to me as well. I am far from an expert on any aging practices , just wanted to give my guess and a realistic view of what I'd be thinking if I was trying to age this deer on the hoof without any previous history of him.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

springIstrutfallIrut said:


> So if I was to guess age on this buck, from stand in a hunting situation, I would give him a pass assuming he's a tank bodied -pre rut- 2 1/2 yr old. I can't put a scale on him or look at tooth wear in that moment so what can I do ? Judge his body weight / body characteristics & his rack. I'm going for mature bucks in Eaton county generally 3 to 4 yr olds. Age is important to me but some of the rack size is as well. I would be comfortable letting him go even if there's a chance he was a 3 or 4 yr old and hoping to see him as a 4 or 5 yr old with an improved rack instead of potentially killing a future beast at 2 1/2. I know racks vary between individuals and are not the best way to solidly judge age but that rack just screams 2 1/2 to me and his head / face fit that age class to me as well. I am far from an expert on any aging practices , just wanted to give my guess and a realistic view of what I'd be thinking if I was trying to age this deer on the hoof without any previous history of him.


Good post. Here's a question. Is is possible that the rack screams 2.5 to you because you believe that a deer will eventually grow a large rack if given enough age? 

The reason I ask that is I think it's become conventional wisdom among hunters that deer antler growth follows a pattern of increases year after year. In actuality there are many deer that won't ever come close to P&Y size. Some won't ever grow even 100 inches of antler. Here's a quote from Bill Winke from an article he wrote in 2008:

"During this past season I averaged seeing roughly one mature buck — those 4.5 years or older — per day. I saw 19 different bucks. That would normally be reason for celebration, but unfortunately, nearly all of them had small antlers, and some were disgustingly small — scoring less than 100 inches. I wasn’t hunting Florida. I was hunting Iowa. They were definitely not the kind of bucks I would hope to see at 4, 5 and 6 years old."

Later in the article Winke goes on to say that out of the 19 bucks he estimated to be at least 4.5 years old, only 2 of them would come close to grossing 150 inches.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

mbrewer said:


> It seems like you're crediting a lack of body size for age here but you're not willing to do the same in reverse.
> 
> There is some subjectivity involved in all aging methods one of the primary reasons I don't worry about it that much. However, IMO, body size is far and away the most telling indicator of age in a free range deer. Their are exceptions to the rule but probability dictates as much certainty as you're likely to get, regardless of method.


Not what I’m doing at all. Neither that deer or the one I killed show any signs of the characteristics I have learned to look for when judging age. Looking at the pics of the deer ns’s daughter killed I think it must be deceiving because I honestly don’t see how that deer is 200 lbs. He is a very nice buck that any kid should be round of. But to me he sure looks Ike a young deer. I’m by no means a biologist. I’m just going off my experience seeing lots of live mature deer and watching the dnr age at the buck pole. When I sat all afternoon and watched the dnr age deer absolutely nobody was accurate guessing compared to what the dnr was saying. I remember one deer in particular that I and everyone else insisted was over 4 years old and the dnr aged him at 2. He had a pot belly, extreme mass, short stubby legs and gray in the face. I was shocked. Also several deer everyone thought was over three that were aged at 1 1/2. It as opening day and I found it so interesting that I skipped the afternoon hunt and watched them all day. For me it was eye opening and I learned that most hunters definitely over age deer.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Liver and Onions said:


> And I can't see how anyone can look at that rack or that body and think that it could be a 1 1/2 y.o. deer. Especially after posting those live camera photos.
> Not trying to be difficult, but what are seeing you in those antlers that suggest 1 1/2 ? What are you seeing in that body that remotely suggests 1 1/2 ?
> Now that the dressed weight has been posted, I would like to change my vote to 3 1/2.
> 
> L & O


There are lots of 1 1/2 year old deer with horns like that. It’s not uncommon especially in farm country. 


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

I am really trying to figure out this thread. Other than igniting keyboard response, what's the point? If you are hunting horns nine times out of ten if you have to look twice to determine the size it's not a shooter. If you are hunting for enjoyment and meat, good for you.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

riverman said:


> I am really trying to figure out this thread. Other than igniting keyboard response, what's the point? If you are hunting horns nine times out of ten if you have to look twice to determine the size it's not a shooter. If you are hunting for enjoyment and meat, good for you.


If you have to ask the point, you're missing the point. Which is not to say that there has to be a point. If every thread has to have some deep point behind it then 99% of all that's ever posted on MS is now in question - LOL.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Slimits said:


> I guess i thought yearlings were fawns born this year


That would be a fawn


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

johnhunter247 said:


> There are lots of 1 1/2 year old deer with horns like that. It’s not uncommon especially in farm country.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not in my neck of the woods. Located in SLP farm country with lots of corn, beans, alfalfa and wheat. North of 69 and south of 46.

L & O


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

johnhunter247 said:


> When I sat all afternoon and watched the dnr age deer absolutely nobody was accurate guessing compared to what the dnr was saying. I remember one deer in particular that I and everyone else insisted was over 4 years old and the dnr aged him at 2. He had a pot belly, extreme mass, short stubby legs and gray in the face. I was shocked.


Pot belly, extreme mass, short stubby legs, and gray in the face are all characteristics of a mature deer. The evidence of maturity was right in front of your eyes. Why would you default to the age guess of the DNR rep?

If someone had pulled in with a pickup and the DNR rep declared it to be a Corvette, would that make it one?


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

johnhunter247 said:


> There are lots of 1 1/2 year old deer with horns like that. It’s not uncommon especially in farm country.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Over the past 15 seasons I'd estimate that the children (mine and others) I've taken hunting have killed somewhere between 45-50 1.5 year old bucks. The deer were killed in Calhoun, Jackson, Eaton, Ingham, and Hillsdale counties in MI, plus Steuben County IN and Williams County OH.

Not a single one of those bucks would come close to grossing 75 inches.


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## Radar420 (Oct 7, 2004)

November Sunrise said:


> Pot belly, extreme mass, short stubby legs, and gray in the face are all characteristics of a mature deer. The evidence of maturity was right in front of your eyes. Why would you default to the age guess of the DNR rep?
> 
> If someone had pulled in with a pickup and the DNR rep declared it to be a Corvette, would that make it one?



Whenever the subject of DNR age estimates come up I like to throw out this old article (the link appears dead but I quoted one of my old replies that still had the picture and pertinent quotes from the article)
_
"I believe some of the ages that get thrown about actually did come from the DNR - the problem is the person doing the aging may not be a biologist. The DNR is severely undermanned to be having deer biologists checking all the deer at check stations so they get volunteers from other departments. So the person checking your deer may be a biologist, a forester, or some intern/grad student who couldn't care less how old a deer is.

I always like to show this article when DNR ages are discussed:
_
_http://articles.petoskeynews.com/2012-11-28/deer-heads_35418146_
_
(DNR aged 2 yr old from Northern Michigan that scores 153)










"Whitaker brought the buck through the Petoskey State Park Department of Natural Resources deer check station, where park ranger and station worker Brian Dunn said it was the biggest buck he had seen all year....

...As much as Dunn could tell, Whitaker's deer was about two years old...

"And the person who mounts your deer will be able to give you a better estimate," said Dunn. "He'll see way more deer than we do."

That turned out to be the case. Whitaker's buck, which is expected to score around a 153 on the Boone and Crockett scale, ended up being ancient in the deer world, said the taxidermist — between 7 and 10 years old."_


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## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

johnhunter247 said:


> There are lots of 1 1/2 year old deer with horns like that. It’s not uncommon especially in farm country.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm in SW Michigan and surrounded by beans, corn, pumpkins and fruit orchards - I've never seen a 1.5yo anywhere near that big in the 5 years I've lived here.

I'd be grateful if you could extend an invite for me and my 14yo son to hunt your properties, I'd be ecstatic if my son could consistently see 1.5 yo deer that size...


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## mattawanhunter (Oct 30, 2011)

Okay so very good post, it really took off for you!

I don't have time to read through all this !
Please post or repost the answer to the question that you originally posted and we're supposed to answer yesterday!



Thanks



November Sunrise said:


> Over the past 15 seasons I'd estimate that the children (mine and others) I've taken hunting have killed somewhere between 45-50 1.5 year old bucks. The deer were killed in Calhoun, Jackson, Eaton, Ingham, and Hillsdale counties in MI, plus Steuben County IN and Williams County OH.
> 
> Not a single one of those bucks would come close to grossing 75 inches.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Boy, I'm glad I didn't get wrapped up in this thread. I smelled a trap right from the start 



(FWIW I thought 2.5 but with weight revealed, I'll go 3.5 or the darn deer just played X-Box all the time)


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

mattawanhunter said:


> Okay so very good post, it really took off for you!
> 
> I don't have time to read through all this !
> Please post or repost the answer to the question that you originally posted and we're supposed to answer yesterday!
> ...


The question on this poll - large 1.5 or small 2.5 - was a question that I posed to myself when I first got a good look at his rack. Once I experienced the size of the deer that question went out the window.

I didn't pose the question because I was actually trying to figure out whether it was 1.5. I already know the deer is not 1.5 and I'm 99+% it's not 2.5, as it would be borderline impossible for a deer to reach 250 lbs live weight/200 dressed by age 2.5.

So the answer is, based on body size, I'm fully persuaded the deer is 3.5 or older.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

FREEPOP said:


> Boy, I'm glad I didn't get wrapped up in this thread. I smelled a trap right from the start


During this time of year you're well served to be skeptical of my motivations. I'm getting so antsy to get a weapon in hand that my mind is continually racing for things to keep me entertained. Turns out an "age this deer by its antlers" poll provided the diversion I was looking for.

Wait until I reveal that we've been tracking the development of this deer for many years due to it having a highly unique identifying mark. Then this thread's going to really become fun. By the time we're done Johnhunter247 may need therapy to help reconstruct his beliefs about antler growth.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)




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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

johnhunter247 said:


> Not what I’m doing at all. Neither that deer or the one I killed show any signs of the characteristics I have learned to look for when judging age. Looking at the pics of the deer ns’s daughter killed I think it must be deceiving because I honestly don’t see how that deer is 200 lbs. He is a very nice buck that any kid should be round of. But to me he sure looks Ike a young deer. I’m by no means a biologist. I’m just going off my experience seeing lots of live mature deer and watching the dnr age at the buck pole. When I sat all afternoon and watched the dnr age deer absolutely nobody was accurate guessing compared to what the dnr was saying. I remember one deer in particular that I and everyone else insisted was over 4 years old and the dnr aged him at 2. He had a pot belly, extreme mass, short stubby legs and gray in the face. I was shocked. Also several deer everyone thought was over three that were aged at 1 1/2. It as opening day and I found it so interesting that I skipped the afternoon hunt and watched them all day. For me it was eye opening and I learned that most hunters definitely over age deer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the response. I'm not sure I agree with you but I do believe you know a whole lot more about what you meant that I do.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Wild Thing said:


> Almost forgot L & O ... one more thing we really identify with you is your repeated attacks on those with differing opinions than you where you call them a "Liar" without actually using the word. You "don't believe it".... it "sounds like Bar Talk to me"...."it's just not true"..."I'll believe it when I see it", ad infinitum. If you had any ballz you would just come out and say it.
> 
> Thanks for not asking me to waste my time on you.


Yep, I do not call a person a liar because they have a different opinion. Also not afraid to call call out some tall tale or crazy conspiracy theory. Like the neighbor of a friend of a co-worker that has gotten 11 bucks so far during archery season off his 5 acres. Or the guy that has seen dozens of cougars in the LP over the past 5 years. You nailed it, I will call out bar/coffee shop rumors.
Speaking of conspiracy theories, can you address that 1 about the CWD deer just down the road from your place ?
Again, when it comes to guessing the ages of deer by body or antlers I will always say " my guess is....." because that's what it is. When anyone guesses the age by tooth wear that's a guess too. Don't care if you can't accept that your tooth wear guess as a guess and not a fact.

Hey, send me a pm if you wish to continue to debate. 

L & O


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## anon02032020 (Oct 2, 2003)

Would love to see what these three bucks would like in two more years.


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## snortwheeze (Jul 31, 2012)

matinc said:


> Would love to see what these three bucks would like in two more years.


Always "that guy"....... somewhere......


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

matinc said:


> Would love to see what these three bucks would like in two more years.


They'd probably like a dusting by then. Maybe some lemon pledge too....


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## LabtechLewis (Nov 20, 2008)

matinc said:


> Would love to see what these three bucks would like in two more years.


You're in luck! These pics are from 2016, I think, so you kinda are! And they look just like they did the day we killed them. Even _three_ years later...

Sorry, couldn't help myself...


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

LabtechLewis said:


> Everything you said makes sense. However, I am pretty sure the buck on the right (same buck in the bottom pic) is a 1YO. He weighed in the 120s dressed. I have personally seen examples of adult teeth which have almost totally pushed out the tricuspid (just about to the point of it being loose) on some other deer. I have also seen another example of a milk-bone four point that had its adult teeth. They were pearly white (i.e. brand new) and I joked with my buddy that he killed a 2YO buck, even though we both knew it was a yearling by all other characteristics. *So, I think it's plausible that this deer on the right is just an early developer and replaced his teeth a few weeks earlier than his peers. If you look again, I think you'll see the adult teeth P1, P2 are not fully erupted, too.*
> 
> Now, you know darn well that I am not trying to trick you with this because I count you as a management mentor even though we've never met in person. I save this side-by-side because I think it's revealing with respect to how an error could be made by an inexperienced, temporary field tech, especially if he/she is in a hurry. I just got lucky that Jeff and I killed bucks the same morning and I learned a lot.
> 
> It's not complicated science and it's not perfect science, but it sure helps to have ample experience in making a determination. Even when the answer appears obvious. We keep learning!


Yes, I've never seen a deer with freshly erupted teeth at this time of the year. They are as white as I've ever seen in the second deer. Once again, not being able to see the entire jaw bone from the top as well as the sides makes it difficult to judge from photos. If you still have the jaw bone you could check the last cusp on the last 3rd molar (all the way in the back of the jaw bone). If that cusp has not fully erupted, then it could be a yearling rather than a 2 year old even though it has a 2 cusped 3rd premolar. Personally, I have never seen one like that but I understand that it is possible.

I never suspected that you were trying to trick me as I know you and I have similar interests in this area. Actually, I find it very interesting because, as I said - I've never seen freshly erupted adult teeth like that one before. What date were these deer killed?


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## LabtechLewis (Nov 20, 2008)

Wild Thing said:


> What date were these deer killed?


November 4


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

LabtechLewis said:


> November 4


Interesting...on the bow opener, Oct 1, he would have still been sporting his 3-cusped yearling premolar.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

LabtechLewis said:


> You're in luck! These pics are from 2016, I think, so you kinda are! And they look just like they did the day we killed them. Even _three_ years later...
> 
> Sorry, couldn't help myself...


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## Sharkbait11 (Apr 7, 2017)

LabtechLewis said:


> What do you see here as far as ages go?
> 
> View attachment 446937
> View attachment 446939
> ...


Yes those are dead deer


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## Whitetail_hunter (Mar 14, 2012)

snortwheeze said:


> Always "that guy"....... somewhere......


Yes there is, this one won't see 2 1/2 and I'm completely fine with it. So is the state, will be tasty for sure. Don't care what anyone else thinks. CWD zone also so the sparkys still are not safe.


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