# National Forest Land Access Problem



## t_bell40 (Nov 9, 2008)

I am hoping I don't get yelled at here for posting something that has been posted.
That being said, I have property in the Manistee National forest. I have been there 26yrs.
I have National forest on all 4 sides. I never had "deeded access" to my property. I am being told by the National forest ranger that I needed to apply for a special use permit which cost 120.00. Then there is the subsequent follow on fee of 90.00 every year after the initial fee is paid. I pay taxes on my 20acres every year and don't see much for it. I am wondering if anyone out there knows of a way around this. I have not ever gotten or applied for a special use permit and have been accessing my land just fine. This year I wanted to cut some trees and the forest ranger is telling me I have to get the special use permit first. Holding my needs hostage until I satisfy their needs. Please help, Thanks !!


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

In the past, have they offered to buy your property ? Would you consider selling if the price was right ? Seems odd that an easement was never part of this land.
I'm no help with your question, but $90 a year doesn't sound bad.

L & O


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

https://www.fs.usda.gov/main/hmnf/passes-permits

*When DO You Need A Permit?*

For some recreation activities:
At most day use sites such as trailheads, picnic areas and river access sites
Fee for Kirtland warbler Guided Tours
Watercraft Permit reservation fees for the Pine and Pere Marquette River
Reserving a campsite in the Au Sable River Primitive Camping

For collecting fuelwood or cutting Christmas Trees.
*Special Use Permits are required for commercial and non-commercial use of NFS lands, including:*
Easements for electrical and utility lines,
*roads to access private property bound by National Forest lands,*
oil and gas pipelines, wells or holding tanks, etc.
Minerals



*Special Use Permits*
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/hmnf/passes-permits/?cid=STELPRD3821068


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

t_bell40 said:


> I am hoping I don't get yelled at here for posting something that has been posted.
> That being said, I have property in the Manistee National forest. I have been there 26yrs.
> I have National forest on all 4 sides. I never had "deeded access" to my property. I am being told by the National forest ranger that I needed to apply for a special use permit which cost 120.00. Then there is the subsequent follow on fee of 90.00 every year after the initial fee is paid. I pay taxes on my 20acres every year and don't see much for it. I am wondering if anyone out there knows of a way around this. I have not ever gotten or applied for a special use permit and have been accessing my land just fine. This year I wanted to cut some trees and the forest ranger is telling me I have to get the special use permit first. Holding my needs hostage until I satisfy their needs. Please help, Thanks !!


I would contact someone at the Huron-Manistee National Forests office and have them explain if you have to pay this special use permit. It may be something new for property owners. 

*Supervisors Office*
1755 S. Mitchell St.
Cadillac, MI 49601
*Phone:* 1-231-775-2421


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Does the general public have free and unimpeded access to the edge of your property? Do they need a use permit to use the road? Are you a member of the public? FM


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## t_bell40 (Nov 9, 2008)

Forest Meister said:


> Does the general public have free and unimpeded access to the edge of your property? Do they need a use permit to use the road? Are you a member of the public? FM


NO !! That is what is upsetting. The public that comes back there with Fifth wheels and deer hunts for 2 weeks doesn't pay a dime for anything. They leave their crap and don't as much pay for camping just off the edge of my property. I pay too much in taxes and then have to pay on top of that for a permit annually ??? Am I missing something.????


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

t_bell40 said:


> .........
> This year I wanted to cut some trees and the forest ranger is telling me I have to get the special use permit first. Holding my needs hostage until I satisfy their needs. ....


Isn't the permit only for cutting trees(dead I assume) on National Forest property ? 

L & O


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Bet


Liver and Onions said:


> Isn't the permit only for cutting trees(dead I assume) on National Forest property ?
> 
> L & O


 the permit is for cutting tree. Miscommunication somewhere in the conversation.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

t_bell40 said:


> I am hoping I don't get yelled at here for posting something that has been posted.
> That being said, I have property in the Manistee National forest. I have been there 26yrs.
> I have National forest on all 4 sides. I never had "deeded access" to my property. I am being told by the National forest ranger that I needed to apply for a special use permit which cost 120.00. Then there is the subsequent follow on fee of 90.00 every year after the initial fee is paid. I pay taxes on my 20acres every year and don't see much for it. I am wondering if anyone out there knows of a way around this. I have not ever gotten or applied for a special use permit and have been accessing my land just fine. This year I wanted to cut some trees and the forest ranger is telling me I have to get the special use permit first. Holding my needs hostage until I satisfy their needs. Please help, Thanks !!


Landlocked proerty with no easement leaves you vulnerable to needing a permit. Without a helocopter you might be screwed. Paying for the permit will name you as the cause for what happens on it(?)
While researching the issue I would ensure being able to gate the permitted easement.
I' m not meaning to be anti- sociable ,but you will be the one maintaing the access and quite possibly liable for injury upon it.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

I was never a Fed but I have dealt with other landowners who were landlocked by USFS and SoM holdings. If we have all the facts straight I do not see how they can force you to get a permit for a road that has been around almost forever. What are they going to do if you ignore them, put a gate on their property where it enters yours? Your congressman would have a field day taking care of that! If you knuckle under beware of any fine print in the permit, there are always stipulation that must be followed. Believe me, I have written up many road permits in my day and you could be on the hook for some road maintenance.

When I reread the OP it implies that the Feds will let you continue to do what you always done but if you wish to cut trees (widen the road?) you need to jump through their hoops while carrying your checkbook. Do you really need to cut those trees that badly? If fifth wheels can get there the road cannot be that narrow. If you are looking for a firewood permit just go in and ask for one without giving any more info than necessary. FM


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## t_bell40 (Nov 9, 2008)

The whole "special use permit" thing revolves around my need to cut maybe 2 or 4 trees. One is dead and could probably be pushed over. The others are small 4 to 6 inch in diameter. Trying to haul a 12ft wide storage shed back there and they need 14ft of clearance. The aforementioned 5th wheels are 8ft wide as by law. Yes, have been coming in and out for 26yrs. But, as soon as started calling and asking questions that is when all the bring your check book talk started. I am trying to look at it like people who rent a seasonal spot somewhere like Lelanau where you pay 3000 a yr for a spot to park your trailer. In that respect 90 a yr ain't so bad....LOL Plus I really do like being "legal", it just seems a little unfair. I know , I could have just started cutting trees and pull this shed in and probably nothing would happen but, now I can sleep peacefully up there.


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## jiggin is livin (Jan 7, 2011)

Yeah, as much as I wouldn't normally condone it, you probably could have just dropped those 4 trees and got your shed in with saying a peep. If they ever asked just shrug your shoulders. Now that it's a thing I would defiantly go the legal route though. 

Not saying it's justification, but I hunt federal forest and the amount of obviously cut down trees is mind boggling. I don't think they enforce it all that much. Unless they were dropped by the Forest Service for some reason.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

The clarification finally ends the speculation as to why the initial Special Use Permit would be required. A permit to remove live trees is absolutely necessary to retain some semblance of control on public land. But still, once a Special Use Permit is obtained and the access widened to the permit specifications the reason for the road widening or "special use", has been fulfilled. This would negate the necessity for an annual renewal of any permit that was issued strictly to widen the road on a one time basis. 

In spite of the clarification, some part of this puzzle eludes me. FM


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I just sat in a meeting with the forest service in St. Ignace a little over a week ago. It was stated the the policy is to not put up anymore gates due to their expense. It was mentioned that berms and rocks will be used in the future. 

I doubt that the forest service has interest in blocking off a road that provides access to private land. With that said pay for the special use permit for the tree removal and go about your life worry free.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

One of my customers had property access blocked by the feds putting up a gate. When he contacted them, it was so much per year for a key to the gate. He now parks at the gate and walks to access his own land.


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## dachief (Feb 20, 2010)

I would just cut the couple of trees and be done with it, damn feds are getting out of hand with their control tactics. Jmo


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## feedinggrounds (Jul 21, 2009)

If the tree are that small push or winch them over and leave them attached to the stump. Lot of wind this spring.


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