# Cougar Spotted



## Waterman (Jan 6, 2004)

Last Week we had a cougar spotted in Presque Isle County. About 2 miles North of Millersburg. It happened on two different days, a quarter mile apart, by two different people. I would like to know why the DNR say we don't have cougars here. not stretching the truth I would say in the past year a cougar has been seen 5 times. If we don't have them here, why are we seeing them? Are there other areas that have been seeing them also?


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## One Eye (Sep 10, 2000)

That cannot be! The DNR says that it is impossible, and we all know they are infallible   They are saying this because they don't want to have to deal with an alarmed populace.

Dan


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

This is from yesterday's GR Press front page...

http://www.mlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1090664245232000.xml?grpress?NEOU

Saturday, July 24, 2004

By Theresa D. Mcclellan
The Grand Rapids Press

Sure, lots of golfers have scored birdies and eagles. But a cougar? 

"We were all in a state of shock," said Gary Crawley, 58, of East Grand Rapids. 

Crawley and three others say the big cat darted across the road, no more than 70 feet away, as they were headed last Sunday to a Mecosta County golf course, east of Stanton. 

He can joke about it. 

"Since we were two miles from the golf course, the first thought I had was wondering who among us was the slowest runner. I was pretty sure I could outrun at least two of them if I had to," the Benteler Automotive manager said. 

But he and his golf partners are serious about what they saw. The state Department of Natural Resources was notified. The cat appeared young, about 4 feet long. They recognized the thick tan body and the signature long tail. 

"It was a mountain lion. There was no doubt what it was," Crawley said. 


Group plans to release video 

The sighting remains unconfirmed, but is one more example of the growing debate in Michigan about the presence of the big cats -- especially in places where one least expects them. 

On Monday, the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy plans to release a videotape it claims shows two cougars in a Monroe County field, about 50 miles southwest of Detroit. 


What the scientists say 

At Central Michigan University, researchers are studying suspected big cat scat -- or feces -- found in Muskegon County's Egelston Township to see if it corroborates reports of a cougar in the area. 

Those are in addition to sightings in the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore that prompted the National Park Service recently to post an unusual sign, "You Are A Visitor In Cougar Habitat." 

To be sure, some sightings are more credible than others. A cougar was reported near Hoffmaster State Park in Muskegon County two years ago, but paw prints indicate the animal was a dog, state officials say. 

Still, reported cougar sightings are receiving greater attention since the Wildlife Conservancy -- working with CMU -- confirmed the presence of cougars in recent years in eight counties using scat analysis. The group claims "credible" evidence of their existence in at least eight more counties. 

The argument these days is less about whether cougars exist in Michigan, but where they are -- and how they got there. 

Once prevalent in all 83 Michigan counties, cougars were declared eradicated by 1922, following decades of bounty hunting. 

The DNR says there is no proof the current cats are anything more than an oddity: They might wander in and out of the state, or are pets released into the wild, but are not necessarily a permanent presence. 

The Wildlife Conservancy is working hard to prove otherwise, that the sightings show cougars -- perhaps a remnant popluation -- are reproducing. 

"They are popping up everywhere. We don't know if they're increasing in number, but we get sightings of three to five a day across the state and they are highly credible," said Dennis Fijalkowski, executive director of the private, nonprofit group. 

Fijalkowski said he was unaware of the recent Mecosta County report, but said there are reports from other West Michigan counties in addition to the 16 northern counties with scat confirmation or credible sightings. 

Fijalkowski said the Monroe County videotape to be released Monday shows an adult cougar teaching a young one to hunt, giving credence to argument for a breeding population. 

DNR officials are more cautious. 

"We've never denied there were cougars in Michigan. The disagreement is whether there is a viable population reproducing. We haven't seen evidence of that," said Ray Rustem, head of the natural heritage section of the DNR wildlife division. 

Rustem also said that car sightings "are the most difficult ones to verify," so observation forms are filed when reports come in. 

"That tells us something, if we get one sighting and then nothing. You get a cluster of sightings and it gives you something to go on," he said. 


They know what they saw 

Bill Nederhoed, 62, of Mattawan, near Kalamazoo, said he saw a cougar this spring west of Kalamazoo, on a rural stretch of Second Road in Alamo Township. 

"The cougar crossed about 20 yards in front of us and we came to a stop. It went into a field and was loping. I'm a hunter and it looked like a full-grown cougar," said Nederhoed, an electrical inspector. 

Mike Moran, 63, of Muskegon, says he found a cougar track last summer at Muskegon County's wastewater treatment plant, near the Muskegon State Game area in Egelston Township. 

Two months later, Moran said, a man told him he watched a cougar for l0 minutes on the same grounds. 

"That really turned my crank," said Moran, a retired office-machinery salesman. 

Then, in May, a Muskegon County sheriff's deputy recovered suspected cougar scat that Moran turned over to the conservancy. The deputy, Jake Askher, declined to comment, saying "that kind of story just attracts poachers." 

The sample was sent to Central Michigan's wildlife forensic lab, which has performed tests for both the DNR and the Wildlife Conservancy. Brad Swanson, head of the lab, said results are not yet in. 

"We've had at least seven or eight cougar (samples) found in Michigan, but we're not coming down on either side of the controversy," Swanson said. 

Determining cougar scat is an intensive process, where forensic investigators isolate a gene to extract DNA, Swanson explained. 

Gary Schroder is certain what he saw in Mecosta County was not a dog, a deer or any other animal. 

The 56-year-old Rockford man was driving Crawley and their two partners to the golf course last Sunday, He says he braked hard when they saw a cougar cross Pierce Road near 155th Avenue around 10:30 a.m. 

The animal disappeared in the brush, and the stunned golfers continued to the Tullymore Golf Club at Canadian Lakes. 

Schroder, who has backpacked in Glacier National Park and the Teton wilderness, said the sighting was remarkable. 

"I've had all these trips out West and just 40 miles from home I see a cougar," said Schroder, an assistant news editor at The Press. "I never expected it. 

"We told the guys in the pro shop, and they didn't believe us. Our golf scores were pretty bad, but I'd say it was from the shock of a cougar." 

2004 Grand Rapids Press. Used with permission


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## One Eye (Sep 10, 2000)

Thanks for the link Bob. Very informative. 

Now the DNR's position is that they always knew they were here, but they doubt the are self-sustaining?? Sounds like a CYA response to me.

Dan


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## Waterman (Jan 6, 2004)

Hey bob thanks for the article. I love the way the DNR reject alot of things that we know are true. Just like the TB deal, I have talked to my old Uncles, they say it is just a simple cycle. Mother nature knows what she is doing, man is the one to mess it up.
Thanks again.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

It MUST be cougar sighting season!!

Was just saying to a friend that other day that every year for the past 4-5 years, when the news slows down in the great outdoors in Michigan in late July/early August, suddenly it's cougar sighting season...every year, right about the same time...


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## Rudi's Dad (May 4, 2004)

I will buy into this when I see a hunter holding a cougar he/she shot while hunting. Otherwise, Sasquash!


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

Ok so if there are cougars in Michigan, what should the DNR do?
We have a wolverine in Michigan too and I suppose it's doing just fine.
The current laws protect cougars, what else is needed?


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Is the cougar protected in Michigan if it does not exist and is a non-native species. If it doesn't exist can you shoot it if you see one? Not starting anything just a thought.

AW


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

I think thats a resonable question, sure would like to know before I got attacked or something.
I remember last winter someone posted here on MS that someone shot one near Oscoda, never heard anything else about it.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

it must be cougar season...  

Last I heard the story about the cougar that got shot, it was near Hale or Tawas or something like that, and no one ever heard anything more about it except for the post on this message board...

Cougars have been protected in this state, whether they're here or not, for almost a century. It was a law that was changed way back, and despite the fact that no one's seen a proven cougar in the wild that really was wild for at least that long, it was never dropped. 

The DNR isn't saying that there's no truly wild cougars in Michigan, true...but they're not saying there are, either. Read what Rustem said...

Big yellow Labradors in the mist, fog, dark, rain, or through bad eyes at 100 yards... :lol:


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## KEN C (Oct 28, 2002)

I find the millersburg sighting interesting. Any pictures? How credible are the people that saw it? Was the DNR contacted to take a look. If it crossed a road there is soft dirt on both sides of the road there should be good tracks. Bring in the hounds and tree, take a picture, then we have some good proof. 
I agree with Linda every year its the same stories around this time of year..


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I don't doubt for a minute the Mecosta county sighting. I hunt and have trapped very close to that sighting and the Tullymore golf course. A few locals I trust and would consider credible and knowledgable have seen a couger in that area before. That area is loaded with bobcat, as they are live released by trappers so often it is no longer a big deal.....used to be a big deal but not anymore. Now, these bobcats are rarely seen as well, and considering they probably outnumber the cougar in the area by 200 to 1, it seems fairly possible to have a cougar in the area that is rarely seen as well. There's a lot of thick cover in that area and plenty of room to stay hidden. I also don't believe anyone with even a little knowledge about either animal would mistake the two. I don't know if it is originaly wild or if it could have been an abandoned pet, I'm guessing pet but thats all speculation. This whole issue seems to come up about 4 times a year. I don't trust the wildlife conservancy as I believe there motive is questainable at best and our DNR has no reason to deny or give credibilty to the issue. These animals are protected in this state so I wouldn't shoot one if I saw one just to prove something. Being attacked is a different story, I just hope I could make it to a gas station to buy lottery tickets.....the odds of winning the jackpot are probably better than being attacked by a cougar in Michigan. 
If they are here, great if not, oh well. I think too much is made of these stories In the first place, but the shock value they offer is unquestionable.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I think if the people in this state had easy access to the information gathered by researchers like Pat Rusz who has been investigating the possibility for years there would be a lot more acceptance of the idea. Why wouldn't there be cougars or mtn lions or whatever you want to call them? We have some decent habitat for them and god knows we have enough food here for them to survive. Think about how many coyotes there are running around this state and they can disappear and not be seen either. I don't doubt it for one minute but i think the DNR knows more than they are letting on about it which I think is wrong because if they are proven to be here the DNR is going to look bad for saying they are not for so long. JMO

AW


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## wingshoot (Mar 25, 2004)

In the case of The sighting in the Sleeping Bear National Lakeshore. This was by a Park Employee who was on foot, she said that the cat followed her at a distance for more than 20 minutes along a 2 track. Plenty of time to rule out the "Yellow Lab" theory.

Samples, evidence was taken. I haven't heard of the results, but that's why there are signs posted there warning of Cougars.

I don't think you can reasonably deny that there are Cougars in the State. The real questions are, where did they come from? How many are there? and are they a breeding population.


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## KEN C (Oct 28, 2002)

That was not USFWS employee at sleeping bear, it was a volunteer. I find it very hard to beleive that a cougar would put up with all the people that visit sleeping bear. The sign is nice though, makes people walk down the trail faster. Funny sleeping bear is all sand, there should be some excellent plaster casts of the cougar prints? I would guess the would be real easy to track. I just wish somebody could get some good evidence, so far I have seen nothing that would prove there are cougars in Michigan.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Eleanor Cumings is not a Park Service employee, or a trained professional of any sort. She was a volunteer that signed up to lead nature hikes and that sort of thing. I don't know if she's still volunteering or not. She's become quite a celebrity since then. Max Holden, the recently retired Park ranger, never saw any sign of a cougar in the park in 26 years, do you think it's possible he retired not just because it was time but because he was a little put off with how that park is operating lately??

And since then, not a single cougar has been seen...nor any tracks, or scat, or anything. Talk to people like Butch T., and a number of others, who live right there year around, and you'll find the cougar sightings are a town joke. 

And don't forget that this is the same NPS that introduced their Wilderness Management Plan a couple of years ago that would have closed off entire sections of SBD to the public...if you can't get in the front door, try the back door. Scare people to death, so they don't want to be there, or lead them to believe that because this rare and threatened creature lives there, people shouldn't be allowed-they might disturb them.

Do a search on the NPS and follow their management plans in other national parks all over the country-what's happening will scare you, too. Because they're shutting down lands to the public, and we're paying them to do that. 

A friend of mine took a walk on the Indian Trail, where the cougars supposedly are, last week....no cougars, just a big sign at the end of the trail forbidding him to walk out onto the beach because of nesting piping plovers, which were done raising their young weeks ago...but the signs are still there.

Scares the bejeezus out of me, I know that. 

:sad:


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## Banditto (Jun 9, 2000)

Linda, not sure if the Hale sighting was a misunderstanding from one of my posts. I hunt in Hale on a large piece of secluded property where the owner of the next parcel has found large cat tracks. These are guys that live and hunt out west so they know what they were looking at were not bobcat or coyote, etc.


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## n.pike (Aug 23, 2002)

No Banditto, she is referring to my post from last winter. There were several that saw the dead cat. But everyone wanted proof, but with the possible consequences of possessing an animal that is protected but doesnt exist, well, I'll let the shooter show it. 

It wasn't a big deal to me, as both my wife and I saw one in '98 near Winn rd and M-65. I dont really care if I am believed, I saw it, identified it clearly, thought its pretty cool. No need for me to stress about uninformed opinion saying I need pictures or a dead cat.


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## KEN C (Oct 28, 2002)

LOL If someone shoot a cougar and more than one person saw it, it would definetley have gotten back to the law. A cougar being shoot in Michigan would have been a incredible story. I doubt the DNR would have prosecuted, they would not know what to say. You cannot expect us to beleive that everyone involved kept this a secret. Pretty cool is a understatement, down right amazing.

Real stories about actual cougars......
http://www.yankton.net/stories/061504/com_20040615024.shtml
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/8835083.htm
http://www.timberjay.com/current.php?article=787


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## KEN C (Oct 28, 2002)

Officials with the Michigan DNR, who have viewed the tape, told the paper it does not prove that cougars are living and breeding in Monroe County.

"It's an interesting tape," press secretary Brad Wurfel told the paper. "They look like blurry, tawny felines. It's not conclusive."

Wurfel told the paper the DNR would like to have scientists look at the tape and make their own determination.

Officials from MWC claim the cougars are not pets and that a segment of cougar population is migrating from the West, the paper reported.


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## redwingsdude (Jan 6, 2002)

Wow, that video was a lot better than i expected. These are most definately cougars.

Also, the 2 pictures and the other video are fantastic! Has anyone else seen these before?


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

too many people apparently trying to see it...someone tell me, do you see any identifiable landmarks in this video?

How do we know it's western Monroe County, or even Michigan?

That's why I doubt the various specimens of cougar scat that CMU has tested that came from the MWC-who was with the MWC's "Cougar trackers" to VERIFY that the scat did indeed come from Michigan?

Dr. Brad Swanson, the CMU researcher hired by MWC to test cougar scat a few years ago, told me, when I interviewed him a couple of years ago, that CMU biological students would be in the so-called cougar areas of MI over the next year or two, attempting to collect scat of their own. I never heard anything more about this at all. Dr. Swanson has been pretty quiet in general lately on the subject of cougars in Michigan. 

I want proof that the videos, photos, scat, tracks, whatever came FROM THE WILD IN MICHIGAN.


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## Banditto (Jun 9, 2000)

definetly cougars. cool video. 

When I was a kid there were people who saw cougars in Monroe County.


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## Buddy Lee (Dec 17, 2003)

Linda G. said:


> too many people apparently trying to see it...someone tell me, do you see any identifiable landmarks in this video?
> 
> How do we know it's western Monroe County, or even Michigan?
> 
> ...


 :lol: Linda, you're my favorite conspiracy theorist. The MWC is putting their credibility on the line here...if they aren't being truthful, they're finished. I see no reason they would lie when the future of their organization depends on this cougar deal being the truth.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

But they aren't doing their cougar research in a scientific manner, either. They are not considered creditable by any other scientific organization out there because of this. 

Instead, they choose to passionately believe in something that's completely unproven, and do their best to make everyone believe the same thing. That's more in line with what religions do, not scientific organizations. 

They're also profiting from it...every time they do something like this, their memberships and donations go up. 

That's not scientific, either. 

Offer me proof, that's been scientifically verified by anyone from a reputable scientific organization, like the USFWS, or any university or state game agency, and I'll shut up. 

But in the meantime, as far as I'm concerned, people are believing in a fairy tale.


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## KEN C (Oct 28, 2002)

How do we verify that was Monroe Co, Mi ? How do we know that was not a staged video? Other than the video what other proof was presented? Seems to me some one could have taken plaster casts of the prints in that field, maybe even scat, urine and hair samples for DNA? Video is pretty grainy. In my mind there is still no credible evidence that there are cougars in Michigan


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## n.pike (Aug 23, 2002)

Linda, is your organization credible? Who decides who is credible? We believe things that Michigan Out of Doors prints, but I personally know one of the main writers that violates A LOT, he lives 1 1/2 miles from my families farm. So are they credible. Some are, some are not.

Here is a credible source, Larry Robinson of the DNR saw a cougar in Alcona county-maybe he lied.

State police officers in Monroe county have reported sighting them-but are they credible?

Beave says he saw one-is he credible?

I saw one-but I know I am not credible. Anyone that hunts and fishes lies.

The list of members here that have seen a cougar is long. The lady on the video identified herself, and any schmuck could figure out where she lives. Guess what that means.....they exist. Breeding? Who knows. But they are out there.
Now, about that shot from the grassy knoll


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I saw it and it is cougars not dogs  I think it was pretty clear. Does this mean that we have breeding population? not really proof of that. All of these people saying we need proof we need proof need to relax. There have been prints, scat, sightings and now video so tere is your proof. The same people who are saying there is no proof will be the first to get all in an uproar when someone shoots one for "proof". 

AW


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Mysecretary's family has seen a cougar in the Houghton Lake area(back off the deadstream swamp) when they lived there a couple years ago and the neighbors saw it a couple times as well. This was back 3-4 years ago and it was spotted maybe 5 times in like a 2 year span. They never reported the sightings.

I've heard the lady at Sleeping Bear who had the cougar follow her was a bit strange and borderline crazy. There are some strange local stories on her lifestyle. BUT, I've also heard that half-dozen old-timers and respected locals have seen cougars in that area for quite some years now. Rarely reported.

I'm on the fence with this debate, it would be nice to see some hard proof but I also understand cats like that are extremely good at being undetected.


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## Eastern Yooper (Nov 12, 2000)

Once upon a time, it was a widely accepted "fact" that the earth was flat.... and anyone that sailed too far would fall off the edge.

A man named _Christopher Columbus_ argued that the world was round. For this he was laughed at and ridiculed. People demanded proof, questioned his credibility, and called him crazy.

But we all know that in the end, he was oh so right.

15 + years ago, people in the UP were reporting the presence of wolves. For this, they were laughed at and ridiculed. The so-called ex-spurts demanded proof, questioned people's credibility, and dismissed others as crazy.

But we all know that in the end, these people were not making things up: In point of fact, there really were wolves in the UP. 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

thankfully. Even fairy tales.

But to make money off it is something else. That's what the MWC is doing. 

Where is the proof that this video was taken in Michigan? I'm sure that lady there, and the lady in SBD, and the state police officers, and everyone else, were absolutely convinced they saw cougars, I talk to people EVERY DAY who have seen cougars on every street corner. They're as common as house cats. But they also think that the dead beaver at the corner is a bear. 

No one's captured one, found a dead one, or treed one with several witnesses and other evidence, like tracks or hair, to back it up. No one's even been able to prove that the tracks found were verified as coming from Michigan, or that they were really cougar tracks, not African lion tracks or something like that from some released exotic pet. No one's been able to prove that the scat that they supposedly found in Michigan actually came from Michigan. 

NO other creditable scientific institution in Michigan, like the U.S. Forest Service, USFWS, or ANY university makes the claims that the MWC does, and believe me, they're out in the woods, too. 

Watch when they have a jogger eaten in California-cougars aren't all that hard to find when you need to find them. They've never had any problems finding them after they attacked those joggers. They got every one of them within 24 hours. 

We even managed to find and PROVE that there is not only at least one lynx, but a wolverine in Michigan (both of which they got tracks, hair, photos, and lots of witnesses to) within the last year-but no cougars. 

They proved the earth was round with SCIENTIFIC PROOF.

Yooper, you and I have gone round on the wolf thing before, and I'm not going to get into it again. Wolves were extirpated for only a short time in Michigan, and the DNR never doubted nor denied their return. But you won't believe anything like that-everyone else is wrong but you, so believe what you like. 

For the record, you can go back through all those windy cougar threads here, I've never said that I don't believe it's impossible for cougars to be in Michigan. In fact, I believe that in some remote areas of the UP, it's very possible. They've verified the existence of at least a couple of them in northern Minnesota, near the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, and it would make perfect sense that an animal with such a large hunting territory could eventually find their way into Michigan.

But Monroe County???

Hey, you can believe in Santa Claus if you want to, this is a free country, and it makes a lot of little kids happy. But we're supposed to be adults.


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## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

Well I don't care if they are here or not. But like Linda has said if they close down Hunting or Trapping ground because of it I have a problem with that by all means.

FWIW you would think a trapper would have caught one. I know a lot of guys that run #3 trap on drags and this would hold a couger.

Most on here know I haven't always agreed with Linda. But I believe she is only speaking facts on this issue.

Dave


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## Buddy Lee (Dec 17, 2003)

I think it's obvious Linda has her own agenda here. She's scared that there will be hunting/fishing land closures because of cougars. There are no black helicopters here...just some wild cats. The only land closures to protect a species that I can think of in MI are for the plovers and the Kirtland Warblers. Very specific habitats, and only during the nesting season. There's no reason to believe any land will be closed because there are a few mountain lions wandering around.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

That's hysterical. Just what would my own agenda be? 

And I'm not worried about anyone closing any lands to hunting and fishing, except possibly the National Park Service in Sleeping Bear Dunes, and many other parks across the country, many of which are already closed to hunting-but they'd like to close them to human access, period. They DO have an agenda, believe me.

No, I'm not writing a book, I'm not on the seminar circuit, I'm not even planning any articles on this any time soon, and I don't work for the DNR or anyone else-I work for myself as a full-time freelance outdoor writer. Keep trying.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I know of a few people that were hunting in the Mesick area last year and two people saw "cougars" in the same area up there. Neither reported the sightings for fear of being ridiculed and laughed at but they swear by it and these are experienced hunters who know what they look like (not mistaking the housecat for one).

AW


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## Buddy Lee (Dec 17, 2003)

Linda G. said:


> Keep trying.


 :lol: Bang! You got me! 

Seriously, I know who you are and what you do for a living. I enjoy your work, I really do. But you've been the most passionate skeptic of cougars on this site...what other conclusion am I supposed to draw from your posts, given your ardent stance on cougars??


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

I'm just concerned when the public has the wool pulled over their eyes, that's all. These boards are here for us all to learn, and when I see gross inaccuracies, fallacies, and fairy tales about the outdoor world being taken as scientific fact on one of these boards, much less by the mainstream media, which simply doesn't know any better, I can't help but get involved.


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## Buddy Lee (Dec 17, 2003)

Linda G. said:


> I'm just concerned when the public has the wool pulled over their eyes, that's all. These boards are here for us all to learn, and when I see gross inaccuracies, fallacies, and fairy tales about the outdoor world being taken as scientific fact on one of these boards, much less by the mainstream media, which simply doesn't know any better, I can't help but get involved.


How can you "scientifically" prove cougars, or any other animal live in MI?? It's not like you can set up a laboratory experiment to determine factually if an animal has crossed the state line. There was nothing scientific about the wolverine finding in Huron County. It was just a bunch of yote hunters with hounds that stumbled into one. No different than the folks down in Monroe with the videocamera.


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## n.pike (Aug 23, 2002)

Linda G. said:


> much less by the mainstream media, which simply doesn't know any better,



So who do you believe, outdoorsman that see it firsthand in the wild, or media in an office writing about it?


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