# Where are all the Older/Bigger bucks at in the NW 12 ?



## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Add them 2 pics and you guys might get the fever thing..lol


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

jr28schalm said:


> I get worried this time of the year I was told every year . I'm even more worried about these 3 and 4 year old spikes I keep hearing about..


Those aren't spikes! There Mississippi 11pts!


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## Hoytman5 (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm seeing lots of nice bucks this year. Curious to see what this year brings as last year was a banner year for my family. Several people I know shot their best bucks last season. I will say we hunt mostly private land though.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Obviously they all migrated to Roscommon county, where there's less pressure on older bucks, since they are only interested in meat spikes there.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Obviously they all migrated to Roscommon county, where there's less pressure on older bucks, since they are only interested in meat spikes there.


Ol piney came down to my level


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> Ol piney came down to my level


And that's pretty low.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Give them time, they will show.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

stickbow shooter said:


> And that's pretty low.


Bet it is really hot there , and sulphur smelling too....


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

stickbow shooter said:


> My oldest son and I have been running cameras in three counties as usual. Manistee, Lake and Wexford. We have only gotten pics of one older buck. The last few years we have been getting some real dandys but not this year. We run eight different cameras and keep checking out new and old places. Is anyone else having the same results ?. Please, if you are getting pics of some good ones , don't say what county.


Get in your truck with a light, that's how you will see them now. Someone mentioned bachelor groups, that's what we're seeing now. 

I saw what prob would have been a 140" plus hit on the highway last week..........bummer.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Where I hunt there are no open fields or farmlands to shine. It's tuff as hell to shine hardwoods and popples lol. We have always got pics of nice bucks by now. Yes even before aprs. But this year seems off. Even my son's friends are not getting any. One has 160 acres in Manistee CO, plus cameras out on public land. His other buddy has cameras out on 400 acres in Lake CO. And the other has access to a few hundred acres in Mason co. All the same thing .zero big boys. I know they are out there somewhere


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

stickbow shooter said:


> Where I hunt there are no open fields or farmlands to shine. It's tuff as hell to shine hardwoods and popples lol. We have always got pics of nice bucks by now. Yes even before aprs. But this year seems off. Even my son's friends are not getting any. One has 160 acres in Manistee CO, plus cameras out on public land. His other buddy has cameras out on 400 acres in Lake CO. And the other has access to a few hundred acres in Mason co. All the same thing .zero big boys. I know they are out there somewhere


High grading turned them all into button bucks?


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)




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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

jr28schalm said:


> View attachment 263727


Had nice bucks till this lady showed up


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> High grading turned them all into button bucks?


Lol, No I doubt that.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> View attachment 263727


Is that one available for waif to shoot ?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

6 foot fence around the tree near her puts here at about 8 foot tall. A shooter for sure!

Can' t hardly wait for the post- burn/ no burn hunt....


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

I've got 40 acres in Charlevoix county. There have always been 1 or 2 dandies every year around. I was starting to doubt the whole apr thing until this year. I have more pics of nice bucks than ever. 1 bachelor group is all 8 pts and bigger. Still have quite a few older spikes/ 4 pts that I wish we could take out. There is no agriculture near me, a couple hay fields is about it. My food plots are getting hammered. I think the last couple mild winters has increased overall numbers, and the bachelor groups seem to be holding on or near my place.


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Biggbear said:


> I've got 40 acres in Charlevoix county. There have always been 1 or 2 dandies every year around. I was starting to doubt the whole apr thing until this year. I have more pics of nice bucks than ever. 1 bachelor group is all 8 pts and bigger. Still have quite a few older spikes/ 4 pts that I wish we could take out. There is no agriculture near me, a couple hay fields is about it. My food plots are getting hammered. I think the last couple mild winters has increased overall numbers, and the bachelor groups seem to be holding on or near my place.


I won't grouse hunt on your place, unless you are up here bow hunting. Then I can sneak in. Where *exactly* are your cameras?


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

Forest Meister said:


> I won't grouse hunt on your place, unless you are up here bow hunting. Then I can sneak in. Where *exactly* are your cameras?


 You can grouse hunt there anytime, invitation is always open. Seem to be quite a few around too. River has been low this summer, but the usual holes are still holding trout. Could be a great chance for a cast and blast kind of day. If you get down there during deer season you might hit the trifecta!


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Biggbear said:


> I've got 40 acres in Charlevoix county. There have always been 1 or 2 dandies every year around. I was starting to doubt the whole apr thing until this year. I have more pics of nice bucks than ever. 1 bachelor group is all 8 pts and bigger. Still have quite a few older spikes/ 4 pts that I wish we could take out. There is no agriculture near me, a couple hay fields is about it. My food plots are getting hammered. I think the last couple mild winters has increased overall numbers, and the bachelor groups seem to be holding on or near my place.


I'm interested in seeing these older spikes..ive never seen one


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

jr28schalm said:


> I'm interested in seeing these older spikes..ive never seen one


Check stickbows wall. LOL


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

jr28schalm said:


> I'm interested in seeing these older spikes..ive never seen one



Browse through this article and you will pictures of spikes off 3 year old deer.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_rp_w7000_0827.pdf


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

U of M Fan said:


> Check stickbows wall. LOL


Lmfao


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

U of M Fan said:


> Check stickbows wall. LOL


It's just a corner, my son has taken over the wall.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

DecoySlayer said:


> Browse through this article and you will pictures of spikes off 3 year old deer.
> 
> https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_rp_w7000_0827.pdf


Thnx for posting, but I've seen that..im looking for old Michigan spikes..


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> It's just a corner, my son has taken over the wall.


I thought you made 2 ice fishing rods with all your bucks


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

jr28schalm said:


> Thnx for posting, but I've seen that..im looking for old Michigan spikes..



Deers bees deers. The fact is there are now, and always have been, life long spikes. Rare? Yes, but to say that is cannot, or does not, happen is wrong.

I have shot 2 spikes that were older than 1.5 years. One in Michigan, one in PA. No, don't have the pics, lost them in a basement flood.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Nope , I made key chains.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2016/02/10/10-massive-spike-bucks-that-deserve-to-be-mounted/


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

jr28schalm said:


> I'm interested in seeing these older spikes..ive never seen one


 I'll pull some pics next time up, but I'm hoping your inference isnt that I dont know what I'm talking about, and that you need some sort of proof. There is no ag near me, dont know if there is a genetic factor involved in my area or not, but I suspect there is. Bought the place in 2009, and it happens every year. Some never get to be more than spikes or 4 points. Big thick spikes that curve forward on some of them but no other points. The new apr's dont allow those to be taken, so if genetics is a factor, they wont be taken out. Before apr's we whacked a few trying to take the genes out of the pool.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Biggbear said:


> I'll pull some pics next time up, but I'm hoping your inference isnt that I dont know what I'm talking about, and that you need some sort of proof. There is no ag near me, dont know if there is a genetic factor involved in my area or not, but I suspect there is. Bought the place in 2009, and it happens every year. Some never get to be more than spikes or 4 points. Big thick spikes that curve forward on some of them but no other points. The new apr's dont allow those to be taken, so if genetics is a factor, they wont be taken out. Before apr's we whacked a few trying to take the genes out of the pool.


I beleave you know what your talking about, I use to hunt onaway for years and no ag..id just like to see pics and got to use kids during youth hunt to wack them


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

DecoySlayer said:


> Deers bees deers. The fact is there are now, and always have been, life long spikes. Rare? Yes, but to say that is cannot, or does not, happen is wrong.
> 
> I have shot 2 spikes that were older than 1.5 years. One in Michigan, one in PA. No, don't have the pics, lost them in a basement flood.


Back in the day deer from all over the UP and NLP came to be checked where I worked. I vividly recall seeing one 10 pt, with a real points and a real rack, that was aged at a year and half. It still had remnants the baby teeth on the lower molars so there was mistaking the age. That deer was killed within a quarter mile of where a 3.5 YO buck scoring 162+ was hit by a car the year before. Surely genetics. Off the top of my head I also recall a minimum of two "button bucks" that aged at 1.5. Both had large bodies but only skin covered buttons. One was from the Kalkaska area and one was local in the EUP. Have heard rumor of others but never put an eyeball on them. 

Anybody willing to speculate that _all _1.5 YO buttons would _always_ have branched antlers at 2.5 years of age and maybe beyond? FM


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## Forest Meister (Mar 7, 2010)

Biggbear said:


> You can grouse hunt there anytime, invitation is always open. Seem to be quite a few around too. River has been low this summer, but the usual holes are still holding trout. Could be a great chance for a cast and blast kind of day. If you get down there during deer season you might hit the trifecta!


Too easy, now the challenge is gone! Maybe I'll try to chase a trout in August before it upsets the deer. But I say that every year, don't I...........but this year will surely be different. FM


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## TJD (Jan 29, 2006)

Biggbear said:


> I'll pull some pics next time up, but I'm hoping your inference isnt that I dont know what I'm talking about, and that you need some sort of proof. There is no ag near me, dont know if there is a genetic factor involved in my area or not, but I suspect there is. Bought the place in 2009, and it happens every year. Some never get to be more than spikes or 4 points. Big thick spikes that curve forward on some of them but no other points. The new apr's dont allow those to be taken, so if genetics is a factor, they wont be taken out. Before apr's we whacked a few trying to take the genes out of the pool.


I'm not saying you are wrong and I wouldn't doubt you could possibly have pics of 2 year old spike or 4pts. Are you estimating age in the pics based on body size? Or have you been able to recognize the same spike or 4pt from year to year? 

Also, I don't believe that you would make any difference in your past attempts to select cull bucks from a wild herd.

Here's an interesting article on the subject 
https://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/big-game-hunting/whitetail-deer/think-cull-buck-myth/

Here is some quotes from the article that I found notable. 

"“There are so many factors influencing deer physiology in free-range herds that it is simply impossible to influence the genetics,” says Porter. “Culling wild deer based on antlers just doesn’t work.”

“A lot of people think they can accurately age a deer down to the exact year just by looking at it, but there’s a lot of science that say you can’t. Even biologists who look at deer for a living have trouble aging a deer to the exact year,” notes Porter.

"You also have to remember that does contribute to the genetics of a fawn, too, and there’s no way to judge her genetic quality based on her appearance.”


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

Biggbear said:


> I'll pull some pics next time up, but I'm hoping your inference isnt that I dont know what I'm talking about, and that you need some sort of proof. There is no ag near me, dont know if there is a genetic factor involved in my area or not, but I suspect there is. Bought the place in 2009, and it happens every year. Some never get to be more than spikes or 4 points. Big thick spikes that curve forward on some of them but no other points. The new apr's dont allow those to be taken, so if genetics is a factor, they wont be taken out. Before apr's we whacked a few trying to take the genes out of the pool.


Probably don't get more than a spike or 4 point because they aren't making it to their second birthday. You're not alone in thinking spikes are older than they are. Saw a recent post somewhere else claiming a buck was 4 that was at most 2.5 years old. 

I've hunted this state in every region, from the ag belt near Indiana, to the high country of the UP. Not once in 30 years of hunting have I seen a spike older than 1 1/2. There is absolutely zero reason to set deer policy based upon a unicorn.


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

otcarcher said:


> Probably don't get more than a spike or 4 point because they aren't making it to their second birthday. You're not alone in thinking spikes are older than they are. Saw a recent post somewhere else claiming a buck was 4 that was at most 2.5 years old.
> 
> I've hunted this state in every region, from the ag belt near Indiana, to the high country of the UP. Not once in 30 years of hunting have I seen a spike older than 1 1/2. There is absolutely zero reason to set deer policy based upon a unicorn.


I've hunted all over the state for 40 years and never seen a bear in the woods but i'm not stupid enough to say because i never seen one there are none!! Have you ever seen a wolverine we know there was 1 in Michigan how about a moose we know there are moose in Michigan!!


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

stickbow shooter said:


> View attachment 263770
> Nope , I made key chains.











I thought you made these??? LOL


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

U of M Fan said:


> View attachment 263778
> 
> I thought you made these??? LOL


I use them..lol


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

TJD said:


> Are you estimating age in the pics based on body size? Or have you been able to recognize the same spike or 4pt from year to year?
> 
> Also, I don't believe that you would make any difference in your past attempts to select cull bucks from a wild herd.
> 
> ...


This is spot on. Some of the other comments here lead me to believe some folks went to the same school of deer biology that the DNR Director attended.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

U of M Fan said:


> View attachment 263778
> 
> I thought you made these??? LOL


That would be Jr28schalm work there. Lol


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

miruss said:


> I've hunted all over the state for 40 years and never seen a bear in the woods but i'm not stupid enough to say because i never seen one there are none!! Have you ever seen a wolverine we know there was 1 in Michigan how about a moose we know there are moose in Michigan!!


Feel better after your temper tantrum? 

I didn't say there wasn't any. I said they're near the equivalent of unicorns, and shouldn't have any bearing on deer policy.


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

otcarcher said:


> Feel better after your temper tantrum?
> 
> I didn't say there wasn't any. I said they're near the equivalent of unicorns, and shouldn't have any bearing on deer policy.


If there are that many unicorns running around our state, please post a picture of one.


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

ridgewalker said:


> If there are that many unicorns running around our state, please post a picture of one.


Unicorns are only found with 4 year-old spikes. Notice, in your following post, there isn't a unicorn. What's that tell you?



ridgewalker said:


> jr28, Here are pictures of a 4 year old spike from up north. These are not my pictures but they were shared with me by a good friend to post on here.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Check this out.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

DecoySlayer said:


> Check this out.


Is that a p.a. buck?


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

It's taken him 4 days now to scroll through the internet to find 2 old spikes..


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

jr28schalm said:


> Is that a p.a. buck?


I don't know, was just looking around and found it. All this talk about age and racks got me interested in seeing what others have seen or taken. 

The older spike I killed in PA was about 8" high, wide out to the ears and looked more like cow horns. Kinda curved inwards.

The one in Michigan was REALLY an ugly rack. I did that buck a favor by shooting it. The antler on the right side was about 10" high, about 2" thick at the base, pencil thick at the top, and went straight up.

The left side antler was "bent". Not more than an inch thick at the base, went up about 4" and made a hard left turn, almost horizontal, for about 3" and was broke off there.

I wish I had not lost so many pictures, I had some really good ones.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

DecoySlayer said:


> I don't know, was just looking around and found it. All this talk about age and racks got me interested in seeing what others have seen or taken.
> 
> The older spike I killed in PA was about 8" high, wide out to the ears and looked more like cow horns. Kinda curved inwards.
> 
> ...


I hear ya on floods, I was in charge of parents estate and there basement flooded right before I started cleaning house out to sell..4ft of water and had to redo basement before I sold it...40 years worth of stuff down there, lost alot of child hood stuff


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

This picture explains a lot. 









I think many people in that area the state see a 4 pointer or five pointer. Or maybe even some six pointers and think those are one and a half year old deer, when in reality they may be two-and-a-half-year-old or even three-and-a-half-year-old.


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## TJD (Jan 29, 2006)

poz said:


> This picture explains a lot.
> View attachment 263846
> 
> 
> I think many people in that area the state see a 4 pointer or five pointer. Or maybe even some six pointers and think those are one and a half year old deer, when in reality they may be two-and-a-half-year-old or even three-and-a-half-year-old.


I only see one deer in your illustration above that looks like it had less than 6pts as a 3yr old. 

I think I get what you are saying here, Poz. APRs will work and that the vast majority of bucks will be legal targets by the time they are 3+ years old. Also, That the 3yr old spike horns and 4pts are a rare exception, rather than the norm, even if they had spikes for their first set of antlers.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

jr28schalm said:


> Thnx for posting, but I've seen that..im looking for old Michigan spikes..



Do not fret, in a decade to 15 years or so there will be a land right here in Michigan where such critters dominate the herd. It's not to hard to predict when the nicer half of the genetics are the only legal choice allowed to be taken to the dinner table every year.................all you need is patience, and you will get exactly what you are looking for SOMEDAY. Look up eugenics and apply that process backwards, it is the law of the land now in 13 counties.................just wait, be patient, relax and listen to the drums beat out their one long song. Window licker bucks for everyone,....................... and then they rejoiced. :lol:


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

TJD said:


> I only see one deer in your illustration above that looks like it had less than 6pts as a 3yr old.
> 
> I think I get what you are saying here, Poz. APRs will work and that the vast majority of bucks will be legal targets by the time they are 3+ years old. Also, That the 3yr old spike horns and 4pts are a rare exception, rather than the norm, even if they had spikes for their first set of antlers.


And while not an anti rant ...late bloomers again add to the ( my) desire to prove a sites habitat first.
How much browse was required to get a six point 3 year old vs how many yearlings could have been killed for the same amount of feed.
We are feeding a doe to get those fawns ,then the fawn ,then the yearling and so on.
If you ,I,we.. have the benefit of sufficient winter browse to not worsen nutrition ...then sustaining a buck for additional years can fit a strictly point based goal among late born ,or malnourished fawns. Without prime habitat , more hunters might benefit from killing more yearlings...if viewed from a sustainable production/hunter success rate view.

Deer ,to thrive ,need more than just something to eat. A habitat if viewed for more than providing deer... needs more than just hungry deer browsing beyond a bounty of preferred and nutritious food into second and third and beyond choices and grinding stems/branches (instead of fine twigs) they would normally avoid mid winter.


We are wandering off the older bucks in the N.W. topic ...but if 3 year olds there were just showing 6 points there would be a better debate of where the big bucks are and why they are not being seen yet.

The (limited) area I keep tabs on there does not have such an issue.
The last place hunted there had a creek bottom deer browsed heavy in winter and really did not need more deer carried over , regardless of how many or few used it.


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

My brother shot one with 1 spike, the other broken off at the base. DNR aged it at 3.5 yrs old. Some of them we've been able to identify from year to year due to an injury, or identifying mark, but not many. I'm definitely not someone who can tell the score of a buck from a pic very accurately, but maturity of a buck that is dead broadside isnt that tough to guess give or take a year. Theres a big difference between 1.5 and 3.5.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

357Maximum said:


> Do not fret, in a decade to 15 years or so there will be a land right here in Michigan where such critters dominate the herd. It's not to hard to predict when the nicer half of the genetics are the only legal choice allowed to be taken to the dinner table every year.................all you need is patience, and you will get exactly what you are looking for SOMEDAY. Look up eugenics and apply that process backwards, it is the law of the land now in 13 counties.................just wait, be patient, relax and listen to the drums beat out their one long song. Window licker bucks for everyone,....................... and then they rejoiced. :lol:


Hunted big chunk on east side for years with 4 on aside and never seen it..Dont plan on seeing it on west side ether now...


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

jr28schalm said:


> Hunted big chunk on east side for years with 4 on aside and never seen it..Dont plan on seeing it on west side ether now...


They've been in place in Leelanau County for 16 years. Nearly 3 decades of biological data (well before, and well after) in Leelanau has shown absolutely zero high-grading. High-grading concern in Michigan is nothing but an attempt to vilify APR's. Worse yet, the DNR Director is further propagating false information via his "spike culling", and "some won't grow 3 points" nonsense.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jr28schalm said:


> Hunted big chunk on east side for years with 4 on aside and never seen it..Dont plan on seeing it on west side ether now...


Speaking of big bucks missing in the N.W.....you have some fresh pics?( Just for lookin , I picked out your biggest doe...)


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Waif said:


> Speaking of big bucks missing in the N.W.....you have some fresh pics?( Just for lookin , I picked out your biggest doe...)


You picked biggest of that pic..lol


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

otcarcher said:


> They've been in place in Leelanau County for 16 years. Nearly 3 decades of biological data (well before, and well after) in Leelanau has shown absolutely zero high-grading. High-grading concern in Michigan is nothing but an attempt to vilify APR's. Worse yet, the DNR Director is further propagating false information via his "spike culling", and "some won't grow 3 points" nonsense.


Has the DNR been looking for it ?


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> Has the DNR been looking for it ?


Yes. The retired biologist from my area said that nothing makes antlers smaller than an unbalanced herd brought about by TDM, where too many deer are on habitat that can't support them. Notice the average antler beam measurements from years past to today.

In 1989, the average NLP antler beam was 18.2mm. Yearling bucks averaged just over 3pts, total.

In 2015 the average NLP antler beam was 19.5mm. Yearling bucks average just shy of 5pts, total.

So where is this high grading again?


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Yes. The retired biologist from my area said that nothing makes antlers smaller than an unbalanced herd brought about by TDM, where too many deer are on habitat that can't support them. Notice the average antler beam measurements from years past to today.
> 
> In 1989, the average NLP antler beam was 18.2mm. Yearling bucks averaged just over 3pts, total.
> 
> ...


Beat me to it.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

otcarcher said:


> Beat me to it.



More bucks today at around one mm bigger antler diameter and a couple more points than in the past are eligible under an apr.....and that does not equal greater high grading? ( Taking the bigger antlered specimens out in a greater number than lesser racked yearlings as opposed to protecting more yearlings to obtain or exceed the 50% protection criteria; to protect yearlings.(?).


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Yes. The retired biologist from my area said that nothing makes antlers smaller than an unbalanced herd brought about by TDM, where too many deer are on habitat that can't support them. Notice the average antler beam measurements from years past to today.
> 
> In 1989, the average NLP antler beam was 18.2mm. Yearling bucks averaged just over 3pts, total.
> 
> ...


Could also be the beam diameters and antlers are different because more people are using food plots and mineral licks than before. I don't remember walking into sporting good store and seen high protein mineral licks and Deer feed on the shelves in 1989. Now they have whole sections dedicated to it.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

otcarcher said:


> They've been in place in Leelanau County for 16 years. Nearly 3 decades of biological data (well before, and well after) in Leelanau has shown absolutely zero high-grading. High-grading concern in Michigan is nothing but an attempt to vilify APR's. Worse yet, the DNR Director is further propagating false information via his "spike culling", and "some won't grow 3 points" nonsense.


I KNEW that would be someone's programmed/regurgitated reply. Good job filling in for the Doctor hisself. :lol: 

Yup, and the other 12 counties have the exact same makeup/ownership/land use/mentality as the great and wonderful Leelanau. That's just like saying Montcalm or Mecosta and the great and wonderful Jackson counties are exactly the same. No differences due land ownership/use/cover/deer mentality right? One does not need to be Nostradamus to see what's coming. In the meantime I hope everyone buys the hype and goes North and West to kill all them bigguns to expedite the inevitable. You all have earned what you will get. WAY TOO FUNNY, ENJOY.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

2 data sets, 26 years apart certainly don't show much. That not even enough to account for weather patterns.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> 2 data sets, 26 years apart certainly don't show much. That not even enough to account for weather patterns.



But, but, but, the powerpoint presentations say it will be ok. Why oh why would I think for myself when we have the great and powerful up on screen telling us it will all be hunky dory? 

I'll be back later I gotta go kill my herd bulls so that the three legged half wit calf that was just born can take over all future breeding reigns. Should make the herd a lot more super duperer right. Herdy derp :lol:


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

357Maximum said:


> I KNEW that would be someone's programmed/regurgitated reply. Good job filling in for the Doctor hisself. :lol:
> 
> Yup, and the other 12 counties have the exact same makeup/ownership/land use/mentality as the great and wonderful Leelanau. That's just like saying Montcalm or Mecosta and the great and wonderful Jackson counties are exactly the same. No differences due land ownership/use/cover/deer mentality right? One does not need to be Nostradamus to see what's coming. In the meantime I hope everyone buys the hype and goes North and West to kill all them bigguns to expedite the inevitable. You all have earned what you will get. WAY TOO FUNNY, ENJOY.





swampbuck said:


> 2 data sets, 26 years apart certainly don't show much. That not even enough to account for weather patterns.


I've got the data going back to 1998. In the NLP, there is not a statistically significant negative difference in long term trends before and after APR anywhere. Not just comparing a single year to a single year. It's nearly two decades of data. Your high-grading argument is blown up. Sorry. 

So funny how you two choose to ignore the real facts, and make something up, even when they "slap you in the face."


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

otcarcher said:


> I've got the data going back to 1998. In the NLP, there is not a statistically significant negative difference in long term trends before and after APR anywhere. Not just comparing a single year to a single year. It's nearly two decades of data. Your high-grading argument is blown up. Sorry.
> 
> So funny how you two choose to ignore the real facts, and make something up, even when they "slap you in the face."



Well by all means go out and enjoy hunting with your notebook, calculator, and powerpoint presentations then, I'll keep it simple and continue to use a bow or a gun myself. Enjoy yourself, I got two buckets of big brown bullheads to clean, they was a snappin on the salad shrimp tonight. Do not fret none though as none of them bullheads were YOUR bullheads. Glad your "data" refutes millennia of basic animal husbandry, how proud you must be. Protect the junk, harvest the good and we will all get to see what is left...SOMEDAY.


----------



## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

otcarcher said:


> I've got the data going back to 1998. In the NLP, there is not a statistically significant negative difference in long term trends before and after APR anywhere. Not just comparing a single year to a single year. It's nearly two decades of data. Your high-grading argument is blown up. Sorry.
> 
> So funny how you two choose to ignore the real facts, and make something up, even when they "slap you in the face."


So do you believe that Michigan is immune to something that has occurred in other states that went the APR route ?

Maybe you could humor us with that collection of data.


----------



## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> So do you believe that Michigan is immune to something that has occurred in other states that went the APR route ?
> 
> Maybe you could humor us with that collection of data.


This has been discussed multiple times. The high-grading findings in MS are of no concern here. The "why" has also been discussed. If you and 357 don't understand it by now, no further explanation by me is going to help you.


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

357Maximum said:


> Well by all means go out and enjoy hunting with your notebook, calculator, and powerpoint presentations then, I'll keep it simple and continue to use a bow or a gun myself. Enjoy yourself, I got two buckets of big brown bullheads to clean, they was a snappin on the salad shrimp tonight. Do not fret none though as none of them bullheads were YOUR bullheads. Glad your "data" refutes millennia of basic animal husbandry, how proud you must be. Protect the junk, harvest the good and we will all get to see what is left...SOMEDAY.


I don't hunt with a calculator, or PP presentation. I do like to know what I'm talking about, rather than rambling on with opinionated nonsense, however.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

otcarcher said:


> I don't hunt with a calculator, or PP presentation. I do like to know what I'm talking about, rather than rambling on with opinionated nonsense, however.



Do you feel better after your hissey fit? :lol: 

Looking forward to your next Doctoral thesis on why thousands of years of genetics and basic animal husbandry do not apply to whitetails though. That should be a gas there Doc. 

When the "junk" is specifically/artificially protected and the "good" is specifically/artificially targeted for destruction the results are as predictable as tonight's sunset. It truly is that simple, ain't my fault you do not want to see it because it does not sit well with your agenda.


----------



## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

357Maximum said:


> Do you feel better after your hissey fit? :lol:
> 
> Looking forward to your next Doctoral thesis on why thousands of years of genetics and basic animal husbandry do not apply to whitetails though. That should be a gas there Doc.
> 
> When the "junk" is specifically/artificially protected and the "good" is specifically/artificially targeted for destruction the results are as predictable as tonight's sunset. It truly is that simple, ain't my fault you do not want to see it because it does not sit well with your agenda.


I rest my case.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

otcarcher said:


> I rest my case.


We can only hope. :lol:


----------



## monczunski (Feb 28, 2006)

With the deer I've seen in mason county the past 2 years (haven't checked cams this year) I left my other spots in the SLP to focus just up there. That herd is stronggggg!


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## cdacker (Jan 10, 2011)

357Maximum said:


> Do you feel better after your hissey fit? :lol:
> 
> Looking forward to your next Doctoral thesis on why thousands of years of genetics and basic animal husbandry do not apply to whitetails though. That should be a gas there Doc.
> 
> When the "junk" is specifically/artificially protected and the "good" is specifically/artificially targeted for destruction the results are as predictable as tonight's sunset. It truly is that simple, ain't my fault you do not want to see it because it does not sit well with your agenda.


If there were a way to determine "junk" (AKA "Dorks") from "good" in a free-ranging herd, your argument might be of some concern.
But since there is no way, it has and will continue to be a non-issue.


----------



## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Forest Meister said:


> Anybody willing to speculate that _all _1.5 YO buttons would _always_ have branched antlers at 2.5 years of age and maybe beyond? FM


Rod Clute, former MDNR deer and elk specialist, has probably checked more deer than anyone else in MDNR history at the bridge.
Of the thousands of deer he checked, over a 20+ year period, he only checked one (1) spike older than 1.5, ONE!
So...at least in the UP, the odds are high that a 1.5 yo button, grew forked antlers by it's second birthday.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

cdacker said:


> If there were a way to determine "junk" (AKA "Dorks") from "good" in a free-ranging herd, your argument might be of some concern.
> But since there is no way, it has and will continue to be a non-issue.


Can we determine non dorks before shooting them?


----------



## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

miruss said:


> I've hunted all over the state for 40 years and never seen a bear in the woods but i'm not stupid enough to say because i never seen one there are none!! Have you ever seen a wolverine we know there was 1 in Michigan how about a moose we know there are moose in Michigan!!


He never claimed they don't exist russ, just that they're so rare if they do, that making policy to accommodate their removal is fool hardy.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

QDMAMAN said:


> Rod Clute, former MDNR deer and elk specialist, has probably checked more deer than anyone else in MDNR history at the bridge.
> Of the thousands of deer he checked, over a 20+ year period, he only checked one (1) spike older than 1.5, ONE!
> So...at least in the UP, the odds are high that a 1.5 yo button, grew forked antlers by it's second birthday.


Just had to be one to demonstrate never say never.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

QDMAMAN said:


> Rod Clute, former MDNR deer and elk specialist, has probably checked more deer than anyone else in MDNR history at the bridge.
> Of the thousands of deer he checked, over a 20+ year period, he only checked one (1) spike older than 1.5, ONE!
> So...at least in the UP, the odds are high that a 1.5 yo button, grew forked antlers by it's second birthday.


Yes, spikes older than 1.5 years are rare, but, since most deer taken in Michigan are not checked, how many have been checked is not a good gauge to go by. 

I would bet that a big rack is more likely to be taken in to be checked, than a spike. The brag factor is important to many.


----------



## cdacker (Jan 10, 2011)

Waif said:


> Can we determine non dorks before shooting them?


at least one guy on these forums thinks he can


----------



## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

DecoySlayer said:


> Yes, spikes older than 1.5 years are rare, but, since most deer taken in Michigan are not checked, how many have been checked is not a good gauge to go by.
> 
> I would bet that a big rack is more likely to be taken in to be checked, than a spike. The brag factor is important to many.


Deke, deer checked at the bridge aren't "brought in" that's my point.
There's no doubt in my mind, or the MDNR's, that older/bigger bucks are over represented in the harvest data for the reason you stated. This amplifies our buck age structure issue.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

cdacker said:


> at least one guy on these forums thinks he can


It's not the dorks being shot, or not shot, that scares me.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> 2 data sets, 26 years apart certainly don't show much. That not even enough to account for weather patterns.


There are yearling variances. That is true. However, it appears the average points is trending up, not down. If there was high grading, the NLP yearlings would be down to around 3.0 pts by now.

It appears MDNR has removed all the links from their Wildlife Division Library, so finding all the check station data isn't easy anymore. But I did find some other info.

I'll add the new data to what I posted above...

In 1979, the average NELP antler beam was 16.8mm. Yearling bucks averaged 3.2 pts. In the Lake/Newaygo area the average antler beam was 16.9. Yearling bucks averaged 3.1 points.

In 1980, the NELP average antler beam was 18.5mm and yearlings averaged 3.7 points. In Lake/ Newaygo it was 19.5mm and 4.3 points. 

In 1983, the NELP antler beam average was 17.3mm and points were 3.4. In Lake Newaygo, the diameter was 18.4mm and 3.4 points. In 1984, those numbers in the NELP were 17.1mm and 3.1 points.. In Lake/Newaygo it was 18.9mm and 3.9 points.

In 1989, the average NLP antler beam was 18.2mm. Yearling bucks averaged just over 3pts, total.

In 1996, the NLP numbers were 18.0mm for antler diameter and 3.5 for average points.

In 2002, the NLP numbers were 18.1mm and 3.7 points.

In 2015 the average NLP antler beam was 19.5mm. Yearling bucks average just shy of 5pts, total.

Does anyone have the check station data from last year?


----------



## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

swampbuck said:


> Has the DNR been looking for it ?



Yes, and you know it.


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

cdacker said:


> at least one guy on these forums thinks he can


Today , first year spikes are better understood enough not to panic over.
" Stunted" racks happen. That' s understood too with environmental/ habitat factors usually the first suspects. 
Hard to prove genetics as a cause despite occassional older bucks less endowed than their peers.
I've seen a couple over the decades that were way off from the norm and had I a zoom camera last year had a most bizzare well aged buck that seemed below a three per side apr.
Could not see broken tines with a good long watch through the scope..but some may have been broken off both sides.....A silent cheer was raised to see a big old buck again though. For girth alone he may have been a record.


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> There are yearling variances. That is true. However, it appears the average points is trending up, not down. If there was high grading, the NLP yearlings would be down to around 3.0 pts by now.
> 
> It appears MDNR has removed all the links from their Wildlife Division Library, so finding all the check station data isn't easy anymore. But I did find some other info.
> 
> ...


Yes.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

So, no high grading is occurring. In fact, it appears that TDM causes yearling antlers to get smaller.

I stand by what I said way back in 2004, when those against change were throwing high grading against the wall, along with farmers fencing off crops and hay bales, before antler rubbing became all the rage.

"And has the highgrading horse already left the barn in many areas of Michigan's NLP from over harvest of yearling males in the last 70 years? What I mean by that is, we see all kinds of concern about highgrading with 3 pt on a side rules, but what highgrading effect has the 3" rule had?"


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> So, no high grading is occurring. In fact, it appears that TDM causes yearling antlers to get smaller.


The MDNR has recorded a significant reduction in antler beam diameters in yearling bucks (over time) in the SLP, where no increased MARs have ever been implemented.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> So, no high grading is occurring. In fact, it appears that TDM causes yearling antlers to get smaller.
> 
> I stand by what I said way back in 2004, when those against change were throwing high grading against the wall, along with farmers fencing off crops and hay bales, before antler rubbing became all the rage.
> 
> "And has the highgrading horse already left the barn in many areas of Michigan's NLP from over harvest of yearling males in the last 70 years? What I mean by that is, we see all kinds of concern about highgrading with 3 pt on a side rules, but what highgrading effect has the 3" rule had?"


http://www.wideopenspaces.com/top-10-counties-bag-big-buck-michigan-pics/


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

QDMAMAN said:


> The MDNR has recorded a significant reduction in antler beam diameters in yearling bucks (over time) in the SLP, where no increased MARs have ever been implemented.


Do they think the over-population brought about by TDM caused the issue? Or is it mainly social/herd dynamic issues, where there's higher SLP yearling buck kill than there was in the 1970's and 80's?


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Do they think the over-population brought about by TDM caused the issue? Or is it mainly social/herd dynamic issues, where there's higher SLP yearling buck kill than there was in the 1970's and 80's?



Antler beam diameters are an indication of overall herd health and herd density.
So, yes, the SLP's on going over populated herd, has contributed to smaller beam diameters in yearling bucks.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

cdacker said:


> If there were a way to determine "junk" (AKA "Dorks") from "good" in a free-ranging herd, your argument might be of some concern.
> But since there is no way, it has and will continue to be a non-issue.


 Does can only carry the "good" genes for so many generations. So I stand by my "SOMEDAY" we will see what protecting the junk has done for us. SOMEDAY will take awhile, but it will arrive thanks to the spare a dork mandates. It took time to turn wolves into weiner dogs, this too will take a bit. Give it a decade or two, we will all get to see it. Personally I would rather see all yearlings that have jet lag taken for the table over their more advanced counterparts. This is exactly the opposite of what MAPR's will give us however. I would not say once a spike always a spike, but once a dork always a bit stunted compared to others holds true in my experience. 

We will pay the price SOMEDAY....mark my words. Until then I will make sure I line up a youth hunter to wipe out junk when I see it. Luckily where I am at I do not see it too very often. One of my main hit list bucks this year is on his 3rd set of antlers and is just a 6 point, a dandy 6pointerbut a 6pointer nonetheless. He will die if I get the chance this fall. I would rather kill him and save a nice yearling 8pointer whether ya'all agree with me or not. I know what the right thing to do is.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

357Maximum said:


> One of my main hit list bucks this year is on his 3rd set of antlers and is just a 6 point, a dandy 6pointerbut a 6pointer nonetheless. *He will die if I get the chance this fall. I would rather kill him* and save a nice yearling 8pointer whether ya'all agree with me or not. I know what the right thing to do is.


Will you eat your unrestricted tag if you don't get a chance at him?


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

QDMAMAN said:


> Will you eat your unrestricted tag if you don't get a chance at him?


I'll probably just leave it in my wallet if I fail to get a crack at the big 6 or the one horned 3 point that was a one horned fork last year. Pretty sure that plastic sticker would not digest too awfully well and I have had diverticulitis before. :lol: I believe the one horner caught a car as a fawn or young yearling and he does not want to grow the other horn, doesn't even have a lump of anything on the left side. He will never be nothing other than tasty meat because of circumstance, some times more than just genetics are at play. Then again I could always see a spike or other "stranger" dork...it could happen. I owe the herd a gimme anyway seeing as I got faked out by a way above average dandy yearling last year in my tall grass and launched a bullet I wish I could call back into the barrel. Then again a buddy just bought some property north of Montague, my opportunities are pertnear limitless. :sad:

My restricted tag has been earmarked for something much much nicer,,hopefully it stays here for the season. If season started today I could have took him off my back deck about 0700 this morning, and yesterday, and the day before that........... :lol: 

You see that is how one answers a direct question. Something some of ya'll struggle with. :lol:


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

357Maximum said:


> Pretty sure that plastic sticker would not digest too awfully well and I have had diverticulitis before.


I was thinking that same thing.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

DecoySlayer said:


> I was thinking that same thing.


I know what half a peppercorn can do, it sucked royally. I can only imagine that big ol plastic sticker to hold much more malice towards me innards. :lol:


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## Namrock (Apr 12, 2016)

DecoySlayer said:


> I was thinking that same thing.


It was happening enough I almost got used to the flavor, but I've cut back to one helping a year. (Reduce waste, save a tree & all)


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

357Maximum said:


> I'll probably just leave it in my wallet ... Pretty sure that plastic sticker would not digest too awfully well and I have had diverticulitis before. :lol:


Might I suggest that you're not caring for it properly in the field.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

Namrock said:


> It was happening enough I almost got used to the flavor, but I've cut back to one helping a year. (Reduce waste, save a tree & all)



Good thing we don't use metal tags no more eh? MMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm adhesive backed plastic....I hope you removed the string. That would be worse than the wallyworld bag I had to pull out of a blueticks butt a few years back.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Namrock said:


> It was happening enough I almost got used to the flavor, but I've cut back to one helping a year. (Reduce waste, save a tree & all)


I know what you mean. I have not used ANY deer tag in 4 years.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

DecoySlayer said:


> I know what you mean. I have not used ANY deer tag in 4 years.


Aaaaah! SO THAT'S why your such a staunch supporter of the status quo!


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

QDMAMAN said:


> Might I suggest that you're not caring for it properly in the field.



My game shears are getting a bit dull and need sharpening, so you may be correct.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

357Maximum said:


> My game shears are getting a bit dull and need sharpening, so you may be correct.


They are very difficult to field dress.


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

QDMAMAN said:


> Antler beam diameters are an indication of overall herd health and herd density.
> So, yes, the SLP's on going over populated herd, has contributed to smaller beam diameters in yearling bucks.


Are we blaming TDM ( what concerned hunters wanted) for over population ,or a lack of doe tags ,or hunters hunting bucks instead of does?

Despite knowing a growing recolonising herd in southern Mi. ( repopulated from what managements stock?) produced real nice antlers.....why with so many private holdings was a contrasting management practiced? The blame can not be directed at a regulation prohibiting doe kills or encouraging high doe numbers by the state.
It ( the blame) should be focused on the killing of bucks instead of does , regardless of their age ; as a type of self defeating management.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

QDMAMAN said:


> Aaaaah! SO THAT'S why your such a staunch supporter of the status quo!



The status quo suits me fine, I played my given hand and paid my money to play within the rules as written. I made that choice to do just such a thing....no one forced me. I do wish the wording on the unrestricted tag was written a bit differently however. Something like "this tag shall only be legal on a recognized ****buck" would be nice. Right tag/idea with the wrong wording is still a bad idea. 

IF I was willing to destroy a whole sect of hunters opportunities for the sake of nothing but possibly bigger antlers FOR ME, and IF I could re-write the rules, I am afraid Waif would be the only one here that would like my inner most desires made into law. Luckily for everyone my inner most desires will never be law, and I would never throw the meathunters, newbees, inexperienced, 2-3 day a year hunters, etc, etc, etc under the bus just to possibly maybe make my hunting better and my personal selfish desires a reality in the first place . Wrong is wrong no matter how you sell it; graphs, pictures, billboards, and glossy pamphlets cannot make something wrong into a right....no matter how hard you try. I guess I just do not have the urge to control thy neighbor that others here obviously possess. It is really atrocious to me personally how many that would control thy neighbor cannot even control themselves however. Let it not be said that you cannot make a wrong much more wronger er er er. :lol:


----------



## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

357Maximum said:


> The status quo suits me fine, I played my given hand and paid my money to play within the rules as written.


Rules are written, and rewritten, all of the time. In fact, the status quo rules that suit you just fine, came about by fellow sportsmen.
I would expect EVERYONE to play by the rules as they're written. Why wouldn't I?


----------



## michigandrake (May 17, 2012)

stickbow shooter said:


> My oldest son and I have been running cameras in three counties as usual. Manistee, Lake and Wexford. We have only gotten pics of one older buck. The last few years we have been getting some real dandys but not this year. We run eight different cameras and keep checking out new and old places. Is anyone else having the same results ?. Please, if you are getting pics of some good ones , don't say what county.


My spots in Lake match what you are saying. Last year more mature bucks than ever before ..... This year everything but mature bucks.


----------



## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

100 years of TDM is directly to blame for maxi's big 6 point and one antlered 3 point.
Definitely....definitely to blame!


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

QDMAMAN said:


> Antler beam diameters are an indication of overall herd health and herd density.
> So, yes, the SLP's on going over populated herd, has contributed to smaller beam diameters in yearling bucks.


Makes sense. That's what Jeff Green, the biologist for my area told me again and again. That it was hunters desires to see more and more deer that was causing so many 3" and even sub-3" spikes in the Lake/Newaygo area, in the 1980's and 90's. TDM=high grading.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

QDMAMAN said:


> Rules are written, and rewritten, all of the time. In fact, the status quo rules that suit you just fine, came about by fellow sportsmen.
> I would expect EVERYONE to play by the rules as they're written. Why wouldn't I?


History has proven that I cannot deeply and honestly respond to that without someone hitting the report button..SO I WON'T, I'll just beat around the edges a bit. It is funny how sensitive those that would control others for their own selfish desires tend to be. 

Scientific management means a whole lot of different things to many folks even though the definition is dirt simple. When it comes to deer hunting there is nothing stopping anyone from following John out to Iowa if you really need your fix that bad. Stealing it from others who may not have what you or I have is just plain wrong. Nothing and I mean nothing can make that wrong right. Nuff said.


----------



## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

357Maximum said:


> The status quo suits me fine, I played my given hand and paid my money to play within the rules as written. I made that choice to do just such a thing....no one forced me. I do wish the wording on the unrestricted tag was written a bit differently however. Something like "this tag shall only be legal on a recognized ****buck" would be nice. Right tag/idea with the wrong wording is still a bad idea.
> 
> IF I was willing to destroy a whole sect of hunters opportunities for the sake of nothing but possibly bigger antlers FOR ME, and IF I could re-write the rules, I am afraid Waif would be the only one here that would like my inner most desires made into law. Luckily for everyone my inner most desires will never be law, and I would never throw the meathunters, newbees, inexperienced, 2-3 day a year hunters, etc, etc, etc under the bus just to possibly maybe make my hunting better and my personal selfish desires a reality in the first place . Wrong is wrong no matter how you sell it; graphs, pictures, billboards, and glossy pamphlets cannot make something wrong into a right....no matter how hard you try. I guess I just do not have the urge to control thy neighbor that others here obviously possess. It is really atrocious to me personally how many that would control thy neighbor cannot even control themselves however. Let it not be said that you cannot make a wrong much more wronger er er er. :lol:


The NRC has the authority to change the wording of the combo tag. They can even make it antlerless only, if need be.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

QDMAMAN said:


> 100 years of TDM is directly to blame for maxi's big 6 point and one antlered 3 point.
> Definitely....definitely to blame!



I would say that some of Maxi's choices early on in his property management/trigger finger management had much more to do with that than anything else. It took him a long time to learn to leave them multi tined brows and nicer tined 8's alone for a another year or so. I think he single handedly wiped the multi brow gene from his area...what a maroon.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> The NRC has the authority to change the wording of the combo tag. They can even make it antlerless only, if need be.



At this point what difference does it make? The NRC has become an entity that no one wanted. We were all sold a bill of goods and a lot of us stood there and yelled hooray when it happened.

Hi, me Mike, me dumb, ONCE.


----------



## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

357Maximum said:


> At this point what difference does it make? The NRC has become an entity that no one wanted. We were all sold a bill of goods and a lot of us stood there and yelled hooray when it happened.
> 
> Hi, me Mike, me dumb, ONCE.


Well , they could print " do not ingest" on the window licker sticker....


----------



## TJD (Jan 29, 2006)

357Maximum said:


> I would say that some of Maxi's choices early on in his property management/trigger finger management had much more to do with that than anything else. It took him a long time to learn to leave them multi tined brows and nicer tined 8's alone for a another year or so. I think he single handedly wiped the multi brow gene from his area...what a maroon.


I've found that a lot of deer start to grow multi brows, stickers, kickers, droptines, once they get some age on them. We get pics of very few yearling bucks with multi brows or stickers, but I can show you several older bucks from the same property that have those traits.


----------



## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

TJD said:


> I've found that a lot of deer start to grow multi brows, stickers, kickers, droptines, once they get some age on them. We get pics of very few yearling bucks with multi brows or stickers, but I can show you several older bucks from the same property that have those traits.



The oldest ones I personally killed with the double and triple brows were at most 3 years of age, some were only 2. That particular gene I had right here was awesome, I squandered that opportunity though I am afraid. Now I only see it in the older bucks and it is rare for one to get beyond 4 right here. I myself am part of that perceived problem. I just cannot let a 4 year old with a nice rack walk everytime YET, but I am getting better every year. Everyone's personal staircase has a different number of steps. My own had a lot of stairs, but I started hunting right when killing 4 whatever bucks was the cool thing to do, and I was way cool. I thought then as I still do now that going to 2 was a good idea. Now I think OBR would be the thing to do, but I am afraid $$$ will never let it happen.


----------



## Phoolish (Aug 17, 2011)

michigandrake said:


> My spots in Lake match what you are saying. Last year more mature bucks than ever before ..... This year everything but mature bucks.


I'm having opposite experience in lake county this year. Im not good at telling maturity this early in the year but going by antlers we have more 8+ than we so smaller deer, but that might also be because one of the near by farmers planted 40 acres a alfalfa. with that added food source and my plots might have promoted extra growth during the spring


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

A trophy hunter's reward


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

357Maximum said:


> I think he single handedly wiped the multi brow gene from his area...what a maroon.


Something maxi and Q agree on!


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

U of M Fan said:


> How old are these pics??? LOL


Three days ago, I believe the deer was hit. The meat pics were from last year.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

stickbow shooter said:


> Three days ago, I believe the deer was hit. The meat pics were from last year.


I was thinking many years ago, like the last time you shot a deer!!! LOL 

Like I'm one to talk. Lmao


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

U of M Fan said:


> I was thinking many years ago, like the last time you shot a deer!!! LOL
> 
> Like I'm one to talk. Lmao


You are right though, that's my boys bucks back straps. Lol


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> You are right though, that's my boys bucks back straps. Lol


He took your wall and your grill


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## TreeDizzle (Oct 19, 2005)

I am in the wexford/Manistee county region and we are seeing the same results. Always had a few good bucks on cams now. No agriculture near us, but have some buddies in the area with pics of good Bach packs near A+ summer food sources. I'm just hoping they start to show their faces on our cams soon


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

Forest Meister said:


> Back in the day deer from all over the UP and NLP came to be checked where I worked. I vividly recall seeing one 10 pt, with a real points and a real rack, that was aged at a year and half. It still had remnants the baby teeth on the lower molars so there was mistaking the age. That deer was killed within a quarter mile of where a 3.5 YO buck scoring 162+ was hit by a car the year before. Surely genetics. Off the top of my head I also recall a minimum of two "button bucks" that aged at 1.5. Both had large bodies but only skin covered buttons. One was from the Kalkaska area and one was local in the EUP. Have heard rumor of others but never put an eyeball on them.
> 
> Anybody willing to speculate that _all _1.5 YO buttons would _always_ have branched antlers at 2.5 years of age and maybe beyond? FM


Funny you should mention Kalkaska. I killed a 1 1/2 yo there about 15 years ago that had 11 scorable points 
with split brow tines and fairly palmated main beams for a young buck. I had him aged locally, where the biologist noted the milk teeth. They sent him in to Rose Lake and I still have the 1 1/2 yo report card. He weighed 104#

Still haven't figured out where he came from, haven't seen anything like him since. He was sneaking through the swamp, had I known what he was I would have let him go.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

357Maximum said:


> Do not fret, in a decade to 15 years or so there will be a land right here in Michigan where such critters dominate the herd. It's not to hard to predict when the nicer half of the genetics are the only legal choice allowed to be taken to the dinner table every year.................all you need is patience, and you will get exactly what you are looking for SOMEDAY. Look up eugenics and apply that process backwards, it is the law of the land now in 13 counties.................just wait, be patient, relax and listen to the drums beat out their one long song. Window licker bucks for everyone,....................... and then they rejoiced. :lol:



I'll just wait for you and Swampy to post all the pictures........, but I won't be holding my breath.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

357Maximum said:


> I KNEW that would be someone's programmed/regurgitated reply. Good job filling in for the Doctor hisself. :lol:
> 
> Yup, and the other 12 counties have the exact same makeup/ownership/land use/mentality as the great and wonderful Leelanau. That's just like saying Montcalm or Mecosta and the great and wonderful Jackson counties are exactly the same. No differences due land ownership/use/cover/deer mentality right? One does not need to be Nostradamus to see what's coming. In the meantime I hope everyone buys the hype and goes North and West to kill all them bigguns to expedite the inevitable. You all have earned what you will get. WAY TOO FUNNY, ENJOY.



So, if all those things could account for changes in increased antler sizes, couldn't they just as well account for decreased antler sizes?

At this point in time, high grading in the APR zones is BS and another lame argument against them.


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

bucko12pt said:


> So, if all those things could account for changes in increased antler sizes, couldn't they just as well account for decreased antler sizes?
> 
> At this point in time, high grading in the APR zones is BS and another lame argument against them.


Just about every single argument that we've heard against them has been lame. No need to expect anything different now.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I


TreeDizzle said:


> I am in the wexford/Manistee county region and we are seeing the same results. Always had a few good bucks on cams now. No agriculture near us, but have some buddies in the area with pics of good Bach packs near A+ summer food sources. I'm just hoping they start to show their faces on our cams soon


We usally set up cameras as close to bedding areas as we dare with out spooking them. And have had great luck in the past. With this Being the fourth year of Aprs there should be more older/bigger bucks.That's why I am surprised.


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## NorthWoodsHunter (Feb 21, 2011)

We're seeing fewer this yearr. A couple squeaked through but the local crop of 2.5's or older got absolutely hammered around us last year. 14+ that we know of within 1/2 mile radius. Heavy AG land doesn't leave a lot of hiding spots. Local pressure has steadily increased last 2 seasons.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I know the pressure has increased around my place as well. It's really starting not to be fun anymore.


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

stickbow shooter said:


> I know the pressure has increased around my place as well. It's really starting not to be fun anymore.


Please be patient. "Help" is coming soon.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

stickbow shooter said:


> I
> 
> We usally set up cameras as close to bedding areas as we dare with out spooking them. .


Food dictates bedding right now. It's been a weird spring/summer and they could just be eating in a different spot. They don't have a reason to travel yet.

If I hung cams in our alder swamp in Lake Co right now, I wouldn't expect to have many buck pics either. We see a lot of does in the summer. Once the end of Oct rolls around it's like someone flipped a switch and there's bucks everywhere. Same story every year for the last 20 years. Sometimes we see a good buck or two in early Oct but it's not consistent.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

bucko12pt said:


> At this point in time, high grading in the APR zones is BS and another lame argument against them.



Time will tell the tale.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

otcarcher said:


> Please be patient. "Help" is coming soon.


Sooner the better, I'm sure it will be higher this year 2


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Sure, high grading is possible. Still, not very likely. 
On one side of the coin we are likely putting more pressure on young bucks with good genetic potential - no doubt about that. So yes, over time there is a net pressure to selectively remove some of the best genetic rack potential from the breeding pool.
On the flip side, the assumption that there is a huge difference in genetic potential between all 1.5 year old spikes, forks and 6 points cannot be substantiated. Many of the 1.5 year olds that are not targets could actually have better genetic rack potential than "legal" bucks, but they may have been born to 1.5 year old doe, or born later in the spring to doe who happened to settle in December. 
Throw in the fact that doe provide 50% of the genetic make up, and the odds of us ever seeing any significant change in rack characteristics due to APR's becomes very very unlikely.
<----<<<


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Joe Archer said:


> Sure, high grading is possible. Still, not very likely.
> On one side of the coin we are likely putting more pressure on young bucks with good genetic potential - no doubt about that. So yes, over time there is a net pressure to selectively remove some of the best genetic rack potential from the breeding pool.
> On the flip side, the assumption that there is a huge difference in genetic potential between all 1.5 year old spikes, forks and 6 points cannot be substantiated. Many of the 1.5 year olds that are not targets could actually have better genetic rack potential than "legal" bucks, but they may have been born to 1.5 year old doe, or born later in the spring to doe who happened to settle in December.
> Throw in the fact that doe provide 50% of the genetic make up, and the odds of us ever seeing any significant change in rack characteristics due to APR's becomes very very unlikely.
> <----<<<


Any opinion on how 100 years of tdm has negatively influenced "antler genetics"?


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> Food dictates bedding right now. It's been a weird spring/summer and they could just be eating in a different spot. They don't have a reason to travel yet.
> 
> If I hung cams in our alder swamp in Lake Co right now, I wouldn't expect to have many buck pics either. We see a lot of does in the summer. Once the end of Oct rolls around it's like someone flipped a switch and there's bucks everywhere. Same story every year for the last 20 years. Sometimes we see a good buck or two in early Oct but it's not consistent.


I agree food is important, but there is so much out there right now how do you cover an entire Forrest t?. I don't have any ag land around my area, just popples and hardwoods .Few acorns falling here and there plus chokes falling not to mention all the leaves and other foliage. I scout out bedding areas mainly in the spring but also in the summer. In my area the bucks will have several different bedding areas wich they use depending on wind direction. So there location is more narrowed down for us. I know there are some nice ones out there just haven't ran across them yet.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

QDMAMAN said:


> Any opinion on how 100 years of tdm has negatively influenced "antler genetics"?


Since there was no selection whatsoever based on antler characteristics, any variation noted in this thread is likely due to environmental factors. 
<----<<<


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## TJD (Jan 29, 2006)

Waif said:


> As ever ,killing the best breeding stock is poor management in ungulate breeding programs if economy of production is any factor.


Let me know when you or anybody else is able to positively identify all of and only the best breeding stock in a wild deer herd, especially among yearling bucks and female deer.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

cdacker said:


> It wasn't my intent to question why you wanted him ... I can certainly respect why you want him. I was wondering shooting him is "the right thing to do".


Because it is what I think is right. I'll not shoot his younger buddies that sport larger racks, and take him out instead, I am going to eat something, might just as well be him. I know what he is and what he was and even have one of his sheds from last year. I also know he is behind the curve, why save him when I want him, especially if saving a nicer buck also makes me happy. It is the right thing to do for what I want growing in my back yard. I also do not want a herd full of bucks that sport characteristics that may not be legal in a few years. I am a conservationist, not a preservationist after all. I participate in a blood sport, not a camera sport.


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## cdacker (Jan 10, 2011)

Waif said:


> Decent depends on region. Your pic could be a yearling in one place and three year old in another.
> Jaw aged? He looks like a certain yearling or possible 2 year old to me


I'm confused ... are you saying you believe that buck, in northern lower michigan sand country, after two of the most severe winters in recent history, is a yearling buck?


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## Phoolish (Aug 17, 2011)

i cant remember what side im on haha. but i believe its a combination of nutrition, genetics and age. With out nutrition the genetics wont show there true potential. for example ive been lifting for 6-7 year first 3 i didnt gain much but the last 3 i focus on nutrition ive gained about 30 pound of muscle total. but i also believe you have to give them time for them to mature before you can see their true potential. 

Im hearing a lot mixed opinions of buck size this year and Im curious on the ppl who aren't see what they want to what their summer habitat is like. Im currently see good things in lake county but then i hear someone that not too far away say they are see nothing.


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## 357Maximum (Nov 1, 2015)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> And for many, that's the "buck of a lifetime".



I am so glad my Father in Law talked us out of that property we seriously looked at between Buckley and Kingsley all them years ago. God surely does look out for some fools anyway. Glad I made the list for whatever reason. If he hadn't looked out for this fool, I would likely only be interested in the fishing sections here by now.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

cdacker said:


> I'm confused ... are you saying you believe that buck, in northern lower michigan sand country, after two of the most severe winters in recent history, is a yearling buck?


No sandy . The similar rack I am comparing it too is per a Northeastern Kent county site. (northern range of southern Mi. Not northern Mi. . Not northern lower penninsula.) 
Rich loam ,multi ag crops and a solid mast crop the previous fall.
Your pic suggests a 2 year old in those conditions. Per a sample aged at 1 (I did not even look at the jaw,or agree) I took. It showed scarring and a fracture in it's skull healing that would have occurred as a fawn had it been a yearling.

Your pic is still leggy ,minimal belly sag ,thin gaskins ,and while hunched ,,, no back sag shows.
At three I expect less leggy , more belly sag ,and mass through legs.
Did not blow up pic to squint. Just looks younger.
Did you see it's jaw? Would go far in accuracy vs opinion by anyone.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Was going to post a pic of a 154 sand buck,, but I better not


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Waif said:


> No sandy . The similar rack I am comparing it too is per a Northeastern Kent county site. (northern range of southern Mi. Not northern Mi. . Not northern lower penninsula.)
> Rich loam ,multi ag crops and a solid mast crop the previous fall.
> Your pic suggests a 2 year old in those conditions. Per a sample aged at 1 (I did not even look at the jaw,or agree) I took. It showed scarring and a fracture in it's skull healing that would have occurred as a fawn had it been a yearling.
> 
> ...


Did you put in for your doe tag? Neighbors won't listen to me so I'm going to hammer all the does


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jr28schalm said:


> Was going to post a pic of a 154 sand buck,, but I better not


You better!

On my profile page in the album are two bucks from the edge of sand country where oak and pine and higher acidic soils start.
A swamp edge provides more than surrounding areas but too many deer would over browse it ,and without being rejuvenated it will outgrow the deer's reach.

The one buck is a yearling that qualifies under a four per one side apr..
The other is a three year old. Both had good nutrition.
Good, not great nutrition , and that begins to fade the farther North you go.(With exceptions of pockets of loam , and peat , muck ,swamp ,ect. and the effect of recognized glacial scouring and deposits). Drop into the most southern regions of the state and in better soil , find better nutrition ,though it takes more than bare soil.....or manicured lawns ,or once in a great while buried in deep snow and or ice sometimes ag fields. A big difference , in region and an important one if growing big bucks near any potential quick is a goal.

Deer can lag a year behind (or more) than those in other regions in body weight and antler mass based on (in my opinion) nutrition alone. They are the same strain till far north into the borealis strain in Canada so genetics can not bear exclusive blame.

Given sustained nutrition as they age (yes age) , what would either bucks potential have been at six years of age?
Being legal at yearling age ,combined with hunter holding a buck tag density , what are the odds any make it to find out?


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jr28schalm said:


> Did you put in for your doe tag? Neighbors won't listen to me so I'm going to hammer all the does


I would really like to harass your deer ..(or more ,harass you..) But am debating tags , travelling , and freezer space.
Doe have been reduced plenty on my property.
One old buck was around the second week of firearm but despite his goofy rack is the last known game as far as older bucks, if he made it. He will leave sign in / near the small sanctuary in a few weeks if he did.
Few recruits from last years fawns (seriously , at one time twenty doe and one fawn. )
This years resident doe's fawn quit leaving tracks...I keep looking though.
Bucks were hammered last season.
I might just buy a single tag and wait for an upgrade. Though it has been a while since bringing any antlers home.
About a dozen deer around.Figure about twenty local hunters....No need to buy many tags here.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Biggbear said:


> I'll pull some pics next time up, but I'm hoping your inference isnt that I dont know what I'm talking about, and that you need some sort of proof. There is no ag near me, dont know if there is a genetic factor involved in my area or not, but I suspect there is. Bought the place in 2009, and it happens every year. Some never get to be more than spikes or 4 points. Big thick spikes that curve forward on some of them but no other points. The new apr's dont allow those to be taken, so if genetics is a factor, they wont be taken out. Before apr's we whacked a few trying to take the genes out of the pool.


Do like the farmers and shoot them and nock the spikes off with a hammer and put a doe tag on them!


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

johnhunter247 said:


> Do like the farmers and shoot them and nock the spikes off with a hammer and put a doe tag on them!


I thought everyone carries a cordless sawzall hunting..lol


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

jr28schalm said:


> I thought everyone carries a cordless sawzall hunting..lol


Not the farmers I saw on a deer drive. They were all carrying a hammer. I couldn't understand why until I saw them using them...


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

johnhunter247 said:


> Not the farmers I saw on a deer drive. They were all carrying a hammer. I couldn't understand why until I saw them using them...


That's crazy


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

I thought everyone uses an 1 inch( dia) piece of pipe about a foot long. It's easier to carry. And you can use as a drag Handel when done.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

stickbow shooter said:


> I thought everyone uses an 1 inch( dia) piece of pipe about a foot long. It's easier to carry. And you can use as a drag Handel when done.


1" dia is for girls hands


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

FREEPOP said:


> 1" dia is for girls hands


True but that's big enough for those spindly spikes we have around here.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

stickbow shooter said:


> True but that's big enough for those spindly spikes we have around here.


Bad genes ?


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

FREEPOP said:


> Bad genes ?



Just future 10 points.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Sand and genes.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Over by my brothers place in Wellston, there is always little deer. I mean in body size and antler size. Not all are but there is a few. They are always spindly spikes that don't weight 80 lbs soaking wet. He called the one " goat boy ". It would come into his bait like it was the king. Every deer would back off and give him his room. He was last spotted chasing a huge doe. That might of made for some interesting video lol. I don't know what he was going to do if he caught her. I don't think he could of reach his destination unless he stood on a stump. Poor guy. As far as we know he is still King of that section of woods.


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## plugger (Aug 8, 2001)

stickbow shooter said:


> I thought everyone uses an 1 inch( dia) piece of pipe about a foot long. It's easier to carry. And you can use as a drag Handel when done.


 The old lead pipe sex change!


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Well, we were starting to get worried as nothing was showing up on trail cams all summer but within the last week it all changed. The bigger boys started making an appearance. Let's get this thread back on track. Here is a couple to wet the pallet.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

If you subscribe to Peterson's Bowhunting magazine, there is an article in the September issue by Bill Winke entitled "Finding the Fall Range" that relates very well to this thread.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Nice noshow. I do get Pettersons Bowhunting wildthing, I always read Winkes articles as well as on his site.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Jeff Sturgis talks about the whitetail habitat shift as well and that is what I rely on every yr. Here is a couple more.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

This is the second biggest we have on camera, nothing huge .


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

Please forgive my ignorance, but can someone please tell me what tdm and high grading are?


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

Biggbear said:


> Please forgive my ignorance, but can someone please tell me what tdm and high grading are?


No need for forgiveness Biggbear. Nice to have others on the forum to help each other out.

TDM = Traditional Deer Management which essentially protects the doe population and places emphasis on harvesting mainly bucks only. This was the strategy which Michigan and other states adopted in order to build the deer population up to high densities which hunters desired. Many hunters refused to shoot does even when they far outnumbered the bucks. This type of management results in heavy harvests of all antlered bucks - particularly yearling bucks since fewer bucks survive to move up into older age classes. It also results in higher than desired antlerless populations which often overblouse and degrade the forage habitat. 

High-Grading is the result of harvesting bucks with the best antler characteristics, thereby essentially removing more desirable genetic traits from the local gene pool. This is an unfortunate result of Antler Point Restrictions such as a minimum of 3 points on one side. The goal is to protect 50% or more of the yearling buck population. Unfortunately, some yearling bucks will, in fact, grow 3 or 4 (or more) points on one side on their first set of antlers. These are exactly the bucks which you would like to see survive and pass along the superior antler characteristics (genes), but because they are legal targets they are often harvested by hunters - thus the herd suffers from "high-grading" - the healthiest of the yearlings are harvested while the bucks with poorer antler characteristics survive to do the future breeding.

Hope this helps.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Biggbear said:


> Please forgive my ignorance, but can someone please tell me what tdm and high grading are?


TDM is Traditional deer Management, or what the current regs are. They have changed many times, so I am not sure what is traditional about them.

High Grading is the practice of killing the best bucks every year, resulting in a decrease in antler size...and possibly other unknown consequences. It has been noted in some states who have made adjustments to their Mapr's to prevent/reduce it. Such as Miss. And Texas. Of course the Mapr folks have determined that Michigan is immune to it.

This will explain it. https://msucares.com/publications/publications/using-antler-restrictions-manage-for-older-aged-bucks


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate it. My place is in the NW12, I've wondered about the 1.5 year old bucks that will get whacked that sport 3 or more. A few years ago my Brother got a dandy 6 point that came through chasing a doe. It was split second decision, based on rack size he thought it was an older buck (we had been letting the younger bucks go for a few years). There really wasn't time to judge body size, and age. As soon as I saw it I told him it was a 1.5 years old, he thought I was crazy. When he stopped at the check station to settle our bet, the person doing the checking was surprised that I was right too. That would have been a great one to let gain some age, but it was a great one to whack too. My Brother was happy with him, and in the end, that's what is important. I only have 40 acres, I'm sure our management practices don't make much difference in the big picture, but we do what we can.

I'm not sure there is a perfect solution. The current regs in our area make dandy 1.5 year olds legal targets, but make older bucks with spikes illegal. From a management standpoint I would think you would want to take out the older bucks with inferior antler development. I'm assuming the law of averages makes both scenarios the exception not the rule.

While no system is likely perfect, as I said earlier we're starting to see the results of the current regs. I admit that I was not sold on this idea of anyone else defining what buck a hunter should be allowed to take, but it has been nice to know there are several dandies around our neck of the woods this year. I'm hopeful that whatever regs the NRC puts in place put the health of the herd first, and antler size down the list. When hunting becomes all about antler size, in my opinion, we've missed the point of the hunt all together.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Thnx for sharing the pics guys..there starting to pop up..i think they were in the old forest trying to keel away from the bugs


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## monczunski (Feb 28, 2006)




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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Biggbear said:


> Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate it. My place is in the NW12, I've wondered about the 1.5 year old bucks that will get whacked that sport 3 or more. A few years ago my Brother got a dandy 6 point that came through chasing a doe. It was split second decision, based on rack size he thought it was an older buck (we had been letting the younger bucks go for a few years). There really wasn't time to judge body size, and age. As soon as I saw it I told him it was a 1.5 years old, he thought I was crazy. When he stopped at the check station to settle our bet, the person doing the checking was surprised that I was right too. That would have been a great one to let gain some age, but it was a great one to whack too. My Brother was happy with him, and in the end, that's what is important. I only have 40 acres, I'm sure our management practices don't make much difference in the big picture, but we do what we can.
> 
> I'm not sure there is a perfect solution. The current regs in our area make dandy 1.5 year olds legal targets, but make older bucks with spikes illegal. From a management standpoint I would think you would want to take out the older bucks with inferior antler development. I'm assuming the law of averages makes both scenarios the exception not the rule.
> 
> While no system is likely perfect, as I said earlier we're starting to see the results of the current regs. I admit that I was not sold on this idea of anyone else defining what buck a hunter should be allowed to take, but it has been nice to know there are several dandies around our neck of the woods this year. I'm hopeful that whatever regs the NRC puts in place put the health of the herd first, and antler size down the list. When hunting becomes all about antler size, in my opinion, we've missed the point of the hunt all together.


This is a nice post...I also believe that there isn't any reason why Mi hunters can't have nice older, bigger deer in its herd and of course still have the great experience of being out there hunting...This isn't rocket science...


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

Biggbear said:


> I only have 40 acres, I'm sure our management practices don't make much difference in the big picture, but we do what we can.
> 
> *I'm not sure there is a perfect solution. The current regs in our area make dandy 1.5 year olds legal targets, but make older bucks with spikes illegal. From a management standpoint I would think you would want to take out the older bucks with inferior antler development. *I'm assuming the law of averages makes both scenarios the exception not the rule.
> 
> While no system is likely perfect, as I said earlier we're starting to see the results of the current regs. I admit that I was not sold on this idea of anyone else defining what buck a hunter should be allowed to take, but it has been nice to know there are several dandies around our neck of the woods this year. I'm hopeful that whatever regs the NRC puts in place put the health of the herd first, and antler size down the list. *When hunting becomes all about antler size, *in my opinion, we've missed the point of the hunt all together.


Old bucks with spike antlers are pretty much a myth Biggbear. The vast majority of spikes (likely 99+%) are yearling bucks in Michigan. I've been hunting over 50 years and I've never seen a spike that wasn't a yearling. 

Yearling bucks with branched antlers of 5 or 6+ points are fairly easy to distinguish as well if you learn how to age bucks on the hoof. Their body size will usually still be the size of the average yearling and they will also generally have very narrow spreads between the beams. Even hunting on only 40 acres you can do your part by learning to recognize them and then give them a pass even though they may be legal targets. Many of us still enjoy the hunt even when we aren't shooting at every "legal" buck we see. It isn't necessarily "all about antler size", as you say - it's all about enjoying the hunt and allowing young bucks to grow more mature and building a better/healthier deer herd.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Not every legal buck in the NW 13 gets shot like alot of the non APR supporters seem to keep throwing out there. Everyone seems to think that all the bucks that have 3 or more pts on one side are wiped out. Not true. Actually after season was over last year I had just as many bucks with legal branched antlers on trail cam as I did illegal targets. The whole spike is a spike, high grading, and taking every legal target seems to be the argument non APR supporters try to use. I have 120 in the NW13 as well as hunt state land and the buck to doe ratio, buck age structure, and the herd seems to be healthy and improved tremendously under aprs. I have never in my life seen a spike that I could say was over 1.5 yo. I'm sure there are a few inferior genes and the quality of food and habitat lacks in some places but I know tons of guys who are doing there part to better the quality of habitat and provide quality food to better the herd for everyone. I can't say much for the guy who throws out some bait a few days before season so they can kill something and whine about the price of a tag. That is nothing compared to the passionate guys out there who put so much in and take little in return to better the deer herd. Now that is pricelss. Last night we had 11 deer out in a food plot and 6 of them were fawns. Need to do a little doe management again this year and probably let the bucks walk unless something really catches our attention. Will keep posting more pics as they come in.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

wildthing said:


> Old bucks with spike antlers are pretty much a myth Biggbear. The vast majority of spikes (likely 99+%) are yearling bucks in Michigan. I've been hunting over 50 years and I've never seen a spike that wasn't a yearling.
> 
> Yearling bucks with branched antlers of 5 or 6+ points are fairly easy to distinguish as well if you learn how to age bucks on the hoof. Their body size will usually still be the size of the average yearling and they will also generally have very narrow spreads between the beams. Even hunting on only 40 acres you can do your part by learning to recognize them and then give them a pass even though they may be legal targets. Many of us still enjoy the hunt even when we aren't shooting at every "legal" buck we see. It isn't necessarily "all about antler size", as you say - it's all about enjoying the hunt and allowing young bucks to grow more mature and building a better/healthier deer herd.


How do Mapr's contribute to herd health ?


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

Wildthing- When I bought the place we had what seemed to be an overabundance of spikes and barely 3 and 4 points, more like spikes with nubs for the extra points. We decided to take a few of the older ones out if we could. Before his nice 6 pt my Brother whacked a big bodied spike, the DNR check station aged that one at 2.5 years old. I took a spike one year that was aged at 3.5 years old. His horns curved forward but never developed any extra points. I honestly think there is a genetic thing in our immediate area that may make a few more than the average. That and nutrition, no ag in my area. Maybe in other areas one factor can be cancelled out by the other decreasing the odds of it happening? Better food source decreases the impact of genetics, and vice versa? I honestly don't know, I'm no biologist, but for some reason there is an increased incidence of older bucks being spikes or barely 4's. I've hunted a lot of areas of Michigan in the last 38 years, I was surprised by what we observed too. That being said, while I wish there was a way it could be made legal to take out the older spikes, the biologists can't make rules based on an anomaly in one small area.

I'll check my cams next time up, if I get pics of any of the older spikes I'll post em up. But I hope I have to sift through a lot of pics of dandies to find a couple pics for this thread.


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> How do Mapr's contribute to herd health ?


Overall herd benefits from early breeding is well documented. Balanced sex ratios increase early breeding, whether it be SC, Michigan, or anywhere in between. An APR is a tool used to not only advance the buck age structure, but to bring sex ratios in line to promote early breeding, among other benefits.

"In addition to being a primary factor affecting the quality of hunting experiences, the adult sex ratio may have important biological implications for the white-tailed
deer. It appears that adult sex ratio affects breeding season length and the mean conception date in adult deer. With a balanced sex ratio, estrus does have less difficulty findinga buck during their 24-hour period of breeding receptivity, and fewer does recycle and conceive during subsequent estrus periods. This situation favors a relatively short breeding season and an early mean conception date. Fawns conceived in herds with a balanced buck:doe ratio will be born at the optimal time for their survival and
growth. Early-born fawns should exhibit increased body size, antler development, resistance to disease and parasites, and reproductive potential."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...CCQwAA&usg=AFQjCNFKHEyvCMBmYMtgn-LbzGGomK_cTw


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

otcarcher said:


> Overall herd benefits from early breeding is well documented. Balanced sex ratios increase early breeding, whether it be SC, Michigan, or anywhere in between. An APR is a tool used to not only advance the buck age structure, but to bring sex ratios in line to promote early breeding, among other benefits.
> 
> "In addition to being a primary factor affecting thequality of hunting experiences, the adult sex ratio may have important biological implications for the white-tailed
> deer. It appears that adult sex ratio affects breeding seasonlength and the mean conception date in adult deer. With abalanced sex ratio, estrus does have less difficulty findinga buck during their 24-hour period of breeding receptivity,and fewer does recycle and conceive during subsequentestrus periods. This situation favors a relatively shortbreeding season and an early mean conception date.Fawns conceived in herds with a balanced buck:doe ratiowill be born at the optimal time for their survival and
> ...


If not born too early in the far north. Evolution helps determine when doe come into season but a delayed spring can still be a wildcard. 
Fawns being bred later ,as well as second go around older does can ,(if wintered well) provide a delay of a group of fawn drops assuring the entire herd is not at risk.

Fawn drop in a manner in which the majority of births are at the same time ,as with all ungulates where depredation factors ; ensures survival odds of an individual when the numbers game is figured.
Unlike climes that the norm is an all at once proposition ,we get a variable.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

otcarcher said:


> Overall herd benefits from early breeding is well documented. Balanced sex ratios increase early breeding, whether it be SC, Michigan, or anywhere in between. An APR is a tool used to not only advance the buck age structure, but to bring sex ratios in line to promote early breeding, among other benefits.
> 
> "In addition to being a primary factor affecting the quality of hunting experiences, the adult sex ratio may have important biological implications for the white-tailed
> deer. It appears that adult sex ratio affects breeding season length and the mean conception date in adult deer. With a balanced sex ratio, estrus does have less difficulty findinga buck during their 24-hour period of breeding receptivity, and fewer does recycle and conceive during subsequent estrus periods. This situation favors a relatively short breeding season and an early mean conception date. Fawns conceived in herds with a balanced buck:doe ratio will be born at the optimal time for their survival and
> ...


Balanced sex ratios....Those are pretty much self correcting, the rest of it is Maybe's and appears to's. You guys seem to like management based on someone's theory's.....as long as it fits YOUR storyline.


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> Balanced sex ratios....Those are pretty much self correcting, the rest of it is Maybe's and appears to's. You guys seem to like management based on someone's theory's


Self correcting? LOL. 

And you prefer management based upon the selfish desire to shoot whatever the heck you want. Theories? Like those you spout off endlessly regarding CWD Management? Too funny, Carl. I'd much rather follow the science than some guy's opinion on the internet.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

otcarcher said:


> Self correcting? LOL.
> 
> And you prefer management based upon the selfish desire to shoot whatever the heck you want. Theories? Like those you spout off endlessly regarding CWD Management? Too funny, Carl. I'd much rather follow the science than some guy's opinion on the internet.


What is it you want to shoot ,and how do you propose obtaining such?
Where in your proposal do you not shoot what you want to shoot?


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

otcarcher said:


> Self correcting? LOL.
> 
> And you prefer management based upon the selfish desire to shoot whatever the heck you want.
> 
> ...


I would to. The MDNR CWD response plan, which is based on the experience of the resource departments that have been dealing with it since the beginning. Not on bio's charts, graphs and theories.


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

swampbuck said:


> I would to. The MDNR CWD response plan, which is based on the experience of the resource departments that have been dealing with it since the beginning. Not on bio's charts, graphs and theories.


It's a theory Carl. Experience, or not. Testing, or not. It's a theory. Further, it's a theory whose basis is founded upon no real world scenario. It's based upon what a computer would do, and completely removes the human variable.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

jr28schalm said:


> Thnx for sharing the pics guys..there starting to pop up..i think they were in the old forest trying to keel away from the bugs


Or on the oaks


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

stickbow shooter said:


> Or on the oaks
> View attachment 264878


Hope we have a good year for them, them things give the baiters fits..


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Squirrels been cutting red oak acorns in the mornings and again a little before dark. Heard one drop after dark.
Have not checked any whites lately but spotted a couple acorns on one a while back.

Last year was a wash.
The past spring was decent here as far as frost and rains ,but the layer of pollen was less...
We'll know more soon.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

We are in Mason county and the oaks on our place are absolutely loaded this year. Nothing on our whites but the pin oaks which we have alot of are loaded with nuts. We have the smaller acorns that are about as big as a dime and the deer absolutely hammer them. The big red oak acorns that are like quarter sized are not on our property but I find it the deer like the smaller version compared to the large red oak.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)




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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

otcarcher said:


> It's a theory Carl. Experience, or not. Testing, or not. It's a theory. Further, it's a theory whose basis is founded upon no real world scenario. It's based upon what a computer would do, and completely removes the human variable.


Talk about omitting the human element? 
You have accurately described the good doctor's fever dream. A place where bucks are so prized and revered that hunters will eschew opportunities at them to focus instead on the mundane doe harvest and disease managemen duty.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

mbrewer said:


> Talk about omitting the human element?
> You have accurately described the good doctor's fever dream. A place where bucks are so prized and revered that hunters will eschew opportunities at them to focus instead on the mundane doe harvest and disease managemen duty.


A " shoot what you don' t want" scenario . Sure ,it could work...Depending on what an individual and majority do not want. And what they kill instead.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Let's get back on topic...nw 12 has aprs and there's nothing to debate about that


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

mbrewer said:


> Talk about omitting the human element?
> You have accurately described the good doctor's fever dream. A place where bucks are so prized and revered that hunters will eschew opportunities at them to focus instead on the mundane doe harvest and disease managemen duty.


No dream. The reality of how the human element affects the make up of the harvest under an APR is measureable. It's no pipe dream, and certainly not a study in futility that increases disease prevalence for nearly two decades, before returning to baseline. A study in which the human desires and choices are completely removed in favor of a computer pulling the trigger. The Jenelle et al study is a joke in a real world application outside of acedemia.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

jr28schalm said:


> Let's get back on topic...nw 12 has aprs and there's nothing to debate about that


Where are the big bucks? ( Map?).


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Waif said:


> Where are the big bucks? ( Map?).


There here, somewhere.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Waif said:


> Where are the big bucks? ( Map?).



Head East young man.....


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Waif said:


> Where are the big bucks? ( Map?).


I'll try to paint you a pic in the morning after a cup of coffee, white bowl back ground


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Such precision! l.o.l..
Big area.
Shuffle should get going around small game opener.
Not just hard antler ,but food choices too as things mature and others dry out.
Frost will get hunters more active too. Out a ways yet.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Well here is one from my camera pull today. #nw12 aprs.






  








20170811_163459




__
Steve


__
Aug 11, 2017


__
2


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Here are some more from the most recent card pull.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Some nice bucks guy's.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Nice pics guys..


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Steve said:


> Well here is one from my camera pull today. #nw12 aprs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice buck. But I have a question for you. Would you shoot that Buck if You saw him. And why. This is not a personal question at you. But we'll just use it as an example.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

noshow said:


> Here are some more from the most recent card pull.
> View attachment 265371
> View attachment 265372
> View attachment 265373
> View attachment 265374


Question for you also would you shoot any of those bucks in that picture. Not picking on you just trying to see what people will shoot


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Just throwing this out. I saw a really dink doe, with two spotted fawns, Friday, Aug, 11, at around 2045. They walked up to within around 30 yards of me. They did not move for around 5 minutes, just stood there looking at me. A car came up the parking lot and they walked off.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Well after this weekend I would guess there will be more pics. You guy's are just holding back right ?


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

poz said:


> Nice buck. But I have a question for you. Would you shoot that Buck if You saw him. And why. This is not a personal question at you. But we'll just use it as an example.


Yes sir. And by the way, that buck was out in the middle of a national forest Square mile and that's where I will be hunting him.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Steve said:


> Yes sir. And by the way, that buck was out in the middle of a national forest Square mile and that's where I will be hunting him.


Good I hope you get him, now I think that bucks a little young for me. I hunt up there by you. Do you think that by you shooting that Buck, that I have the right to say y*ou're taking an opportunity away from me*. And also should you be labeled on anti older deer guy. Again I'm not picking on you, just that buck seems like a good example to use for the scenario, but this attitude has been seen on this site, which by the way I think is a great site. Is that many guys who are against mandatory apr's, have been labeled as anti-apr's and anti older deer, Meaning that we are against all apr's, and against wanting an older deer herd. When in fact we believe in personal choice. Now, we are led to believe that if someone shoots a one-and-a-half-year-old buck they are taking opportunity from someone who wants to shoot an older deer by not letting that deer reach a certain age structure. They have been catagorized as an entitlement group. Again do you feel that by shooting that Deer someone should come up to you and say that you took away an opportunity from them. Because they want to Target older deer. Meaning 4 and 1/2 or 5 and 1/2 year old deer. This is the issue that many on here are facing. The word anti is being thrown around way too much. And it's being used wrongly it should be *anti mandatory apr's.* I just posted this so you guys can think about what is actually happening in our community. There's always going to be someone who want to shoot an older buck. But should they make someone who shoots a small three-and-a-half-year-old buck like the one you have posted, feel like they did something wrong and took opportunities away.


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## ridgewalker (Jun 24, 2008)

DecoySlayer said:


> Just throwing this out. I saw a really dink doe, with two spotted fawns, Friday, Aug, 11, at around 2045. They walked up to within around 30 yards of me. They did not move for around 5 minutes, just stood there looking at me. A car came up the parking lot and they walked off.


That may have been an early fawn that was bred last December. I hope that she gets smart. Is there any type of food source near where you were?


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

poz said:


> Of course I would shoot one of those bucks. The only one that I would shoot out of those deer so far would be the heavier palmated 10pt. But that's just what I am after. As for the other bucks in my pics I would have to say no but I hope someone in my family gets a crack at them or my surrounding neighbors.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Good. I'm glad for you. And I hope you get one. Look at my response to Steve. Do you think by killing one of the smaller ones that you are taking an opportunity away from someone. Don't know if your 4 minute or apr's or not. Just asking well you would think if someone came up to you and said you took an opportunity away from me shooting an older class but by shooting a three-and-a-half-year-old.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Yes I am for aprs all the way and all these deer are from an apr county. No, by shooting a deer is not taking an opportunity away from someone else but I also think that maprs have created a lot more opportunities for all hunters by putting a wider range of bucks off all sizes on the table. In the county o hunt before aprs it was hard to even see a buck make it to 2.5yo and now it is just amazing the transformation that has taken place.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

noshow said:


> Yes I am for aprs all the way and all these deer are from an apr county. No, by shooting a deer is not taking an opportunity away from someone else but I also think that maprs have created a lot more opportunities for all hunters by putting a wider range of bucks off all sizes on the table. In the county o hunt before aprs it was hard to even see a buck make it to 2.5yo and now it is just amazing the transformation that has taken place.


I don't want to hijack this thread. So maybe we'll start a new one. But how do you get an older age structure. By only passing on one year of deer. I understand what you're saying and I know it can make a difference in some counties. But the logic behind passing one age of deer just to shoot a two-and-a-half-year-old or three-and-a-half-year-old. Won't achieve what your account want to accomplish from your post. I'm in the same reason to pass a one-and-a-half-year-old can be used to pass a two-and-a-half-year or three and a half year old. If your guy's idea of a diverse age group is one two three and a half years old. Then we'll never achieve what many of you want in Michigan. But to put it simple if the goal is Michigan is to shoot four and a half year old and 5 year olds. Then shooting a deer at 1/2 years old or three and a half year old has the same effect. That's the difference between mandatory apr's and voluntary apr's. Just think if you pass those two and a half year old at three-year-olds what a wider range of deer we'll have. This isn't directed at you personally it's just trying to show an example of the attitudes in Michigan. We keep hearing we want older bucks yet for some reason we don't want to wait to get them to be older.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

We aren't trying to get trophies around every tree. But advancing the age even one year makes a world of difference in my book when before maprs the 1.5yo made up the 90percent of the buck herd in my area and most of the state for that matter. The way things were the way before and the way it is in most of the state voluntary does not work. Now with aprs alot of people will still do voluntary based on their own standards. With more deer on the table bucks will slip through and therefore we will have a few bucks make it to 4.5 and 5.5yo but it will take a little time and some guys are starting to see this in certain areas of the nw13. But to keep things status quo just was not working.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

Baby steps first , then you can run with all the toddlers ..


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Passing one year class of deer is a good start.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

Steve said:


> Passing one year class of deer is a good start.


This is so true. When MAPR's went into effect here in 2001, everyone was happy to see and shoot 2 1/2 YO's. After a few years many hunters started voluntarily started passing on the 2 YO's and then more of them moved on to the next higher age class. It is a natural progression but you have to start somewhere, Also, as no-show mentioned, once they get a little older, they get a lot wiser as well and many of them will learn to avoid hunters. Yearling bucks are the most vulnerable and easiest deer in the woods to kill. If given the chance to get a little older they learn to get a little wiser as well. Let em go so they can grow...


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## fishinfanatic19 (Jun 4, 2014)




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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

What's funny is, if you guys think about it, is that everyone on here says voluntary doesn't work. But they expect voluntary to get them to the next level. Does that make sense. "Voluntary won't work saving a deer that's 1.5 years old but it work at saving them at two and a half and three and a half years old." That's what many of you on here are saying. These just sounds like excuses for people who don't want to wait. Many people don't wanna wait and wil shoot a one-and-a-half-year-old but but we want lost pass to stop him from doing it because we want older deer. Because everyone says voluntary won't work. But if you can't get involuntary to work on a spike how you going to get it to work on an 8-pointer? You guys control the trigger. You're never going to shoot a five and a half year old if you keep shooting them at three and a half year old


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Like I said most guys aren't trophy hunting for 5.5 yo deer. We're not making tv shows here. We're not the so called pro staffers. We're just happy to see more age class of bucks besides just 1.5yo deer every single season and if we see a 2.5yo u considered yourself lucky. This was of course before aprs. Post aprs now since we are seeing 1.5, 2.5, and 3.5yo deer makes the hunting experience alot more enjoyable. Needless to say we get a few more lbs of meat.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Just for example. This is what it was like to check trail cams before aprs.






. Now this is what it's like checking trail cams since aprs have been put into affect. It's alot more exciting knowing the next time you check your trail cams you might have someone new show up, bigger rack, or some cool looking points, or maybe even a droptine or two.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

noshow said:


> Just for example. This is what it was like to check trail cams before aprs.
> View attachment 265534
> . Now this is what it's like checking trail cams since aprs have been put into affect. It's alot more exciting knowing the next time you check your trail cams you might have someone new show up, bigger rack, or some cool looking points, or maybe even a droptine or two.
> View attachment 265534


What you fail to understand is that the attitude you have now. Many guys had this attitude way before. But they didn't stop you from shooting those Young Bucks by passing laws 10 years ago. So should those guys who want to shoot five and a half year olds force you to pass on the Bucks you like shooting. Would you be happy if they came in and said you can't shoot any of those bucks on your trail cam.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

noshow said:


> Like I said most guys aren't trophy hunting for 5.5 yo deer. We're not making tv shows here. We're not the so called pro staffers. We're just happy to see more age class of bucks besides just 1.5yo deer every single season and if we see a 2.5yo u considered yourself lucky. This was of course before aprs. Post aprs now since we are seeing 1.5, 2.5, and 3.5yo deer makes the hunting experience alot more enjoyable. Needless to say we get a few more lbs of meat.


Most " guys" hunting for 5.5' s in Mi. are not going to be bringing home more meat.


For the majority' s goal of killing bucks older than yearlings your post fits the bill.
As long as fawns are steady , ( as without an apr as well) you are set. Fawns are a year class foundation required for success too. And perhaps the most vulnerable. With a longrange effect when a year class is reduced in production and survival.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

noshow said:


> Like I said most guys aren't trophy hunting for 5.5 yo deer. We're not making tv shows here. We're not the so called pro staffers. We're just happy to see more age class of bucks besides just 1.5yo deer every single season and if we see a 2.5yo u considered yourself lucky. This was of course before aprs. Post aprs now since we are seeing 1.5, 2.5, and 3.5yo deer makes the hunting experience alot more enjoyable. Needless to say we get a few more lbs of meat.


Like you said before mandatory apr's we're shooting a lot of yearlings so yes your statement about most guys aren't trophy Hunt is true. But you're in favor of laws that would force those guys who aren't trophy hunting to pass legal deer. Does that make sense


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## Whitetail Freak (Nov 10, 2008)

poz said:


> What's funny is, if you guys think about it, is that everyone on here says voluntary doesn't work. But they expect voluntary to get them to the next level. Does that make sense. "Voluntary won't work saving a deer that's 1.5 years old but it work at saving them at two and a half and three and a half years old." That's what many of you on here are saying. These just sounds like excuses for people who don't want to wait. Many people don't wanna wait and wil shoot a one-and-a-half-year-old but but we want lost pass to stop him from doing it because we want older deer. Because everyone says voluntary won't work. But if you can't get involuntary to work on a spike how you going to get it to work on an 8-pointer? You guys control the trigger. You're never going to shoot a five and a half year old if you keep shooting them at three and a half year old


Most hunters have never seen a 2 year old, I think getting over the Michigan mentality of shooting the first buck you see would go a long ways. That's what aprs is doing. It's a real eye opener in the following years.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Whitetail Freak said:


> Most hunters have never seen a 2 year old, I think getting over the Michigan mentality of shooting the first buck you see would go a long ways. That's what aprs is doing. It's a real eye opener in the following years.


I have been hunting for 40 years, I've seen 2.5 yr olds every year. In Michigan the yearling buck population is only about 45% of the buck herd. So if you are not seeing older deer you are doing something wrong. 
The main reason I believe people weren't seen older deer was because they shot the first legal buck that came in. Which was usually a one-and-a-half-year-old. Then they were done hunting.


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## Whitetail Freak (Nov 10, 2008)

poz said:


> I have been hunting for 40 years, I've seen 2.5 yr olds every year. In Michigan the yearling buck population is only about 45% of the buck herd. So if you are not seeing older deer you are doing something wrong.
> The main reason I believe people weren't seen older deer was because they shot the first legal buck that came in. Which was usually a one-and-a-half-year-old. Then they were done hunting.


Like I said (most)! So you agree the problem is they are shooting the first buck they see, again that's what I said. So you also agree that aprs would break that tradition? I been hunting 30 years, don't know what that has to do with anything.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Whitetail Freak said:


> Like I said (most)! So you agree the problem is they are shooting the first buck they see, again that's what I said. So you also agree that aprs would break that tradition? I been hunting 30 years, don't know what that has to do with anything.


No apr's break the tradition because we both agree that they shoot the first legal Buck they see. So if your goal is two just have Michigan be a one-and-a-half and two and a half year old deer State keep doing what we're doing with *mandatory apr's*. Cuz that's all that they are doing is getting the person to pass at 1.5 year old just a shooting at 2.5 years old. under this logic after two-and-a-half-year-old our structure will stay pretty much the same. Yeah you might get a few that make it to be a little older but not many. The only way to do it, is to get Hunters to pass most of the Bucks we are seeing these pictures. Now again I have no problems anyone shooting any of those bucks in those pictures. It's their personal choice. But don't come on here and say that we're getting older age structure and then start shooting two and a half and three and a half year old 8 pointers. Because that will do nothing to help really increase the age structure. Like I said if people think they're making a difference bypassing a 1.5 year old Spike and shooting two and a half field 6 pointer. They're only kidding themselves.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Whitetail Freak said:


> Like I said (most)! So you agree the problem is they are shooting the first buck they see, again that's what I said. So you also agree that aprs would break that tradition? I been hunting 30 years, don't know what that has to do with anything.


Age has nothing to do with it. Keep in mind that you have been having a discussion with no possible way of getting anywhere with the other poster.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

If you think guys aren't seeing 2.5 yo bucks or bigger is because they are shooting the first legal buck they see. Then that just shows you voluntary is about as worthless as bringing sand to the beach. Please explain the difference in trail cam pics because they are out there 365/24/7. I have been running trail cams since 2005 and I have more pics of 2.5 and older deer in one year worth of trail cam pics then the 8 yrs previous to aprs combined. It's pretty obvious that no one is gonna change anyone's mind who's has not changed already. We have aprs in a few counties and maybe more in the future, who knows. As far as trophy hunters telling me I can't shoot the bucks I have on trail cam is not even a comparison. Last I checked most guys aren't trophy hunting for 5.5yo deer so I'm sure they would be the minority in a survey. I'm sure they wouldn't get a 76 percent approval rating if the survey asked if people were trophy hunting for 4.5yo bucks and older, and everything below that age is illegal.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

skipper34 said:


> Age has nothing to do with it. Keep in mind that you have been having a discussion with no possible way of getting anywhere with the other poster.


Why I'm all for shooting any deer you want to shoot. I'm just against having a senseless law passed that in the long run will not have any effect on our deer herd if people don't start doing it voluntarily to actually make a change.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

poz said:


> No apr's break the tradition because we both agree that they shoot the first legal Buck they see. So if your goal is two just have Michigan be a one-and-a-half and two and a half year old deer State keep doing what we're doing with *mandatory apr's*. Cuz that's all that they are doing is getting the person to pass at 1.5 year old just a shooting at 2.5 years old. under this logic after two-and-a-half-year-old our structure will stay pretty much the same. Yeah you might get a few that make it to be a little older but not many. The only way to do it, is to get Hunters to pass most of the Bucks we are seeing these pictures. Now again I have no problems anyone shooting any of those bucks in those pictures. It's their personal choice. But don't come on here and say that we're getting older age structure and then start shooting two and a half and three and a half year old 8 pointers. Because that will do nothing to help really increase the age structure. Like I said if people think they're making a difference bypassing a 1.5 year old Spike and shooting two and a half field 6 pointer. They're only kidding themselves.


That's what has happened around my place as far as I can tell from running cameras so far this year. We have aprs yes, but tons of pressure now because guy's think there are big bucks behind every tree. That's the farthest thing from the truth. We have a bunch of spikes, sixes and a few smaller eight points on camera In a three county area. I am not claiming to know all the deer in these areas, but we know enough . This season there will be a bunch more smaller bucks taken and even fewer reaching the next level. If you want to see bigger bucks , go to OBR or make the whole state fall under aprs.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

stickbow shooter said:


> That's what has happened around my place as far as I can tell from running cameras so far this year. We have aprs yes, but tons of pressure now because guy's think there are big bucks behind every tree. That's the farthest thing from the truth. We have a bunch of spikes, sixes and a few smaller eight points on camera In a three county area. I am not claiming to know all the deer in these areas, but we know enough . This season there will be a bunch more smaller bucks taken and even fewer reaching the next level. If you want to see bigger bucks , go to OBR or make the whole state fall under aprs.


If you want to see bigger bucks two things have to happen in Michigan. One is the hunter mentality has to change to stop shooting the first legal Buck they see. Whether there's APRs or not. That's the only way you'll be able to get older deer in Michigan. Second we have to increase the buck population which would entail increasing the whole deer population in Michigan. If you can increase the deer population and have the kill stay the same. Then more bucks will make it to an older age.


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## LabtechLewis (Nov 20, 2008)

wildthing said:


> This is so true. When MAPR's went into effect here in 2001, everyone was happy to see and shoot 2 1/2 YO's. After a few years many hunters started voluntarily started passing on the 2 YO's and then more of them moved on to the next higher age class. It is a natural progression but you have to start somewhere, Also, as no-show mentioned, once they get a little older, they get a lot wiser as well and many of them will learn to avoid hunters. Yearling bucks are the most vulnerable and easiest deer in the woods to kill. If given the chance to get a little older they learn to get a little wiser as well. Let em go so they can grow...


WT, in your experience, does the evidence support that you kill as many deer now as you did pre-APR?

I think it is self-evident that there would be more 2YO bucks available in years post MAPR (all things being equal), I mean, how could there not be? And we've been lead to believe that success rates stay consistent from pre- to post- once you get one year in. 

But you say that older bucks are harder to kill (which makes perfect sense). How can the success rate continue at past levels? Do you kill as many bucks now per season as you did pre-MAPR?


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Typical pre-apr buck





  








IMAG0004




__
Steve


__
Aug 13, 2017


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

poz said:


> If you want to see bigger bucks two things have to happen in Michigan. One is the hunter mentality has to change to stop shooting the first legal Buck they see. Whether there's APRs or not. That's the only way you'll be able to get older deer in Michigan. Second we have to increase the buck population which would entail increasing the whole deer population in Michigan. If you can increase the deer population and have the kill stay the same. Then more bucks will make it to an older age.


Wrong, wrong and one more time, WRONG!....We've been practicing vaprs (cause that's all we can do) on our little 154 acres for 10-12 years now...Every year even on our little piece, it has become better and better...We're getting pics from deer we've passed on 2-3 years ago...Not all deer are being shot by neighbors...The cameras do not lie and never will...This is fact...I have numerous past pics of 4.5-5.5 yr olds...


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

sniper said:


> Wrong, wrong and one more time, WRONG!....We've been practicing vaprs (cause that's all we can do) on our little 154 acres for 10-12 years now...Every year even on our little piece, it has become better and better...We're getting pics from deer we've passed on 2-3 years ago...Not all deer are being shot by neighbors...The cameras do not lie and never will...This is fact...I have numerous past pics of 4.5-5.5 yr olds...


Maybe you guys have been practicing voluntary prayers for the neighbors weren't. Are you passing smaller two-and-a-half-year-old and three and a half year old deer?


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

noshow said:


> If you think guys aren't seeing 2.5 yo bucks or bigger is because they are shooting the first legal buck they see. Then that just shows you voluntary is about as worthless as bringing sand to the beach. Please explain the difference in trail cam pics because they are out there 365/24/7. I have been running trail cams since 2005 and I have more pics of 2.5 and older deer in one year worth of trail cam pics then the 8 yrs previous to aprs combined. It's pretty obvious that no one is gonna change anyone's mind who's has not changed already. We have aprs in a few counties and maybe more in the future, who knows. As far as trophy hunters telling me I can't shoot the bucks I have on trail cam is not even a comparison. Last I checked most guys aren't trophy hunting for 5.5yo deer so I'm sure they would be the minority in a survey. I'm sure they wouldn't get a 76 percent approval rating if the survey asked if people were trophy hunting for 4.5yo bucks and older, and everything below that age is illegal.


Trail cam pics can be deceiving. We see Bachelor groups of 8 and 10 pointers in Lake County starting back in 1988. We would Scout all summer long and sit on food plots All Summer Long. Way before trail cams became popular. 2 things you don't consider with trail cams and older bucks. 1 is what has changed in the habitat let's take a friend of mine's property in Lake County. 5 years ago he run an occasional feeder. Half the time the feeder would be empty because it would run out before he could go up there to fill it up again. All he did was get pictures of Yearling bucks. Now go up there today and look at his trail cam pics he has a lot of nice 100 class two and a half and three and a half year olds on his property. What did he do? Was it APR or what's the fact that he had his neighbors and himself start planting food plots and improving habitat. His property is night and day difference than it was 5 years ago habitat wise. Also number two with trail cam pics. Having hunted out west we would see large bucks come in to food plots or Feeders and would seem very comfortable. The one guide explain it the best. " It's very simple if a deer comes into a food plot or feeder when he's a button buck and no one shoots him or bothers and he comes in as a one-and-a-half-year-old and no one shoots him and bothers him . Guess what he's going to stay in the area and he'll feel comfortable in the area. That's what a lot of people are seeing now they're getting bucks that have stayed in the area that normally hunting them they would have chased them out a long time ago.


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## Rut-N-Strut (Apr 8, 2001)

sniper said:


> Wrong, wrong and one more time, WRONG!....We've been practicing vaprs (cause that's all we can do) on our little 154 acres for 10-12 years now...Every year even on our little piece, it has become better and better...We're getting pics from deer we've passed on 2-3 years ago...Not all deer are being shot by neighbors...The cameras do not lie and never will...This is fact...I have numerous past pics of 4.5-5.5 yr olds...


So voluntary APR's can work, just takes a little longer.

A few of us here on MSF have believed that all along.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

LabtechLewis said:


> *WT, in your experience, does the evidence support that you kill as many deer now as you did pre-APR*?
> 
> I think it is self-evident that there would be more 2YO bucks available in years post MAPR (all things being equal), I mean, how could there not be? And we've been lead to believe that success rates stay consistent from pre- to post- once you get one year in.
> 
> But you say that older bucks are harder to kill (which makes perfect sense). How can the success rate continue at past levels? Do you kill as many bucks now per season as you did pre-MAPR?


I have killed more deer since we went to APR's in 2001 than I killed pre MAPR days. I could have killed as many in the earlier years if I wanted to kill yearling bucks but I quit doing that in 1981. I went a lot of years without killing any bucks simply because others were still killing the yearlings and there were fewer 2 1/2 + bucks available for me to hunt. Although I didn't age all of my deer back then like I do now, I don't believe I ever killed a 3 1/2 YO in Michigan until we went to APR's (although there may have been 1 or 2).

Since going to APR's (actually 1 or 2 years after implementing APR's) I could fill both of my buck tags every single year if I were happy with 2 1/2 YO's. I have passed up at least 2 and most years, many more 2 1/2 YO's, every year since then. I hunt for 3 and 4 year olds now and I have a self-imposed rule that my second buck has to be bigger than the first so I seldom kill 2 bucks in the same year now but I have the opportunity to hunt most of the year. 

I did not do a lot of shed hunting this year, but I found 14 shed antlers this spring - almost all from yearlings so that should give you some idea of the number of 2 1/2 year olds we will have around this year. I did not find any of the sheds from the larger 2, 3 and 4 year olds that we had leftover after the season and I'm betting that many of them will be around as well. 

We have only killed one 5 1/2 year old here since going to Mapr's but we have killed more 3 and 4 year olds than we have 2 YO's and Yearlings combined (3 larger ones which our guests thought were older). 

The answer to your question though is that we have far more opportunities to kill more mature deer than we ever did prior to Mapr's.


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

sniper said:


> Wrong, wrong and one more time, WRONG!....We've been practicing vaprs (cause that's all we can do) on our little 154 acres for 10-12 years now...Every year even on our little piece, it has become better and better...We're getting pics from deer we've passed on 2-3 years ago...Not all deer are being shot by neighbors...The cameras do not lie and never will...This is fact...I have numerous past pics of 4.5-5.5 yr olds...


So your voluntary APR is by your own admission are helping you get 4 and 1/2 in 5 & a half year old deer. Please tell me again how voluntary doesn't work


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

wildthing said:


> I have killed more deer since we went to APR's in 2001 than I killed pre MAPR days. I could have killed as many in the earlier years if I wanted to kill yearling bucks but I quit doing that in 1981. I went a lot of years without killing any bucks simply because others were still killing the yearlings and there were fewer 2 1/2 + bucks available for me to hunt. Although I didn't age all of my deer back then like I do now, I don't believe I ever killed a 3 1/2 YO in Michigan until we went to APR's (although there may have been 1 or 2).
> 
> Since going to APR's (actually 1 or 2 years after implementing APR's) I could fill both of my buck tags every single year if I were happy with 2 1/2 YO's. I have passed up at least 2 and most years, many more 2 1/2 YO's, every year since then. I hunt for 3 and 4 year olds now and I have a self-imposed rule that my second buck has to be bigger than the first so I seldom kill 2 bucks in the same year now but I have the opportunity to hunt most of the year.
> 
> ...


Again another example of someone implementing voluntary apr's after mandatory APRS. Good for you good job. And the more you pass so small two-and-a-half-year-old and three-and-a-half-year-old them are 4 and 1/2 in 5 & a half year old you'll shoot


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> So voluntary APR's can work, just takes a little longer.
> 
> A few of us here on MSF have believed that all along.
> 
> .


Actually voluntary aprs work faster if you can get the majority Hunter's to do it then mandatory apr's will. If just the hunters that supported mandatory apr's did it voluntarily and then voluntary passed on smaller two-and-a-half-year-old or three-and-a-half-year-old dear Michigan would be a Mecca. But many of them still don't get it. I would rather have neighbors that didn't support mandatory apr's but voluntary passed on Small Deer then have neighbors that were supportind mandatory apr's and then shoot the first legal dear they see.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

poz said:


> Again another example of someone implementing voluntary apr's after mandatory APRS. Good for you good job. And the more you pass so small two-and-a-half-year-old and three-and-a-half-year-old them are 4 and 1/2 in 5 & a half year old you'll shoot


That is true poz ... but the point I was trying to make is that I never had the opportunity to pass 2 1/2 year olds + *until we went to mandatory APR's. 

*


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## poz (Nov 12, 2004)

wildthing said:


> That is true poz ... but the point I was trying to make is that I never had the opportunity to pass 2 1/2 year olds + *until we went to mandatory APR's.
> *


No you're just led to believe that. We've been passing two and a half year olds for a long time. I bet you one of our hunting companions probably passes 30 deer year with many of them being two and a half year old or older. And he consistently shoots larger older deer. Don't get me wrong These are nice deer in the pictures. But they have velvet on them and they're looking a lot bigger than they are. Many of them won't even score 100 inches. Like I said before I have no problem with someone to shoot them and wish them good luck on getting them. But in trying to get people to voluntary pass them. I have to be honest and telling them that the goal they want to see of a larger mature heard is not going to happen if they shoot bucks like this.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

Most of our 2 year olds won't make 100 inches either....but it is still nice to see them. Prior to aprs we saw very few of them. I wish more people would pass them up too but in this state the vast majority of hunters are going to be very happy with a 100 inch 8 point so it is hard to find fault with their harvesting that animal.

When I was a youngster I would have been elated with a 2 YO 8 point. Yes, I was happy with the yearling spikes and forks too .... for a few years, but then I had a strong desire to harvest something a little nicer and they just weren't there poz. This is precisely why I am a strong supporter of APR's. It isn't championing the cause for myself - I already have APR's and very good hunting in my DMU. I support APR's for all of the youngsters and less experienced hunters out there who have the desire to harvest something a little bigger but they just aren't there for them because the majority of the harvest on their grounds are made up of yearling spikes and forks.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Wildthing it's really no use. You're never going to get him to agree with you on any subject. That fact comes from reading the many threads which proves this point.


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## LabtechLewis (Nov 20, 2008)

wildthing said:


> I have killed more deer since we went to APR's in 2001 than I killed pre MAPR days. I could have killed as many in the earlier years if I wanted to kill yearling bucks but I quit doing that in 1981. I went a lot of years without killing any bucks simply because others were still killing the yearlings and there were fewer 2 1/2 + bucks available for me to hunt. Although I didn't age all of my deer back then like I do now, I don't believe I ever killed a 3 1/2 YO in Michigan until we went to APR's (although there may have been 1 or 2).
> 
> Since going to APR's (actually 1 or 2 years after implementing APR's) I could fill both of my buck tags every single year if I were happy with 2 1/2 YO's. I have passed up at least 2 and most years, many more 2 1/2 YO's, every year since then. I hunt for 3 and 4 year olds now and I have a self-imposed rule that my second buck has to be bigger than the first so I seldom kill 2 bucks in the same year now but I have the opportunity to hunt most of the year.
> 
> ...


Quite a track record, there! Congrats on the success!


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

poz said:


> *No you're just led to believe that. *We've been passing two and a half year olds for a long time. I bet you one of our hunting companions probably passes 30 deer year with many of them being two and a half year old or older. And he consistently shoots larger older deer. Don't get me wrong These are nice deer in the pictures. But they have velvet on them and they're looking a lot bigger than they are. Many of them won't even score 100 inches. Like I said before I have no problem with someone to shoot them and wish them good luck on getting them. But in trying to get people to voluntary pass them. I have to be honest and telling them that the goal they want to see of a larger mature heard is not going to happen if they shoot bucks like this.


And, once again, poz....I am not being led to believe anything - I am speaking from my personal experience of hunting Michigan under my own voluntary APR's from 1981 -2000 and under MAPR's in DMU-122 from 2001 - present. The difference is like Night & Day - there is just no comparison. I don't need anyone to tell me what it may or may not be like - I've been there and done that.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Wild, I am still warning you. No use.


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

skipper34 said:


> Wild, I am still warning you. No use.


Yep - You are probably right skip - I'm throwing in the towel...


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## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

wildthing said:


> Most of our 2 year olds won't make 100 inches either....but it is still nice to see them. Prior to aprs we saw very few of them. I wish more people would pass them up too but in this state the vast majority of hunters are going to be very happy with a 100 inch 8 point so it is hard to find fault with their harvesting that animal.
> 
> When I was a youngster I would have been elated with a 2 YO 8 point. Yes, I was happy with the yearling spikes and forks too .... for a few years, but then I had a strong desire to harvest something a little nicer and they just weren't there poz. This is precisely why I am a strong supporter of APR's. It isn't championing the cause for myself - I already have APR's and very good hunting in my DMU. I support APR's for all of the youngsters and less experienced hunters out there who have the desire to harvest something a little bigger but they just aren't there for them because the majority of the harvest on their grounds are made up of yearling spikes and forks.


I'm sorry but youngsters and less expierienced usually won't harvest older deer any how. 
When I was a younger less expended hunter that's how it was. Until o honed my skills I never would have believed that the caliber of bucks I kill now were even there. And my neighbors still don't believe it!!


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> So voluntary APR's can work, just takes a little longer.
> 
> A few of us here on MSF have believed that all along.


AND.........
Not sure of your point....
Have you heard many that quit the practice after they've started it??


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

poz said:


> So your voluntary APR is by your own admission are helping you get 4 and 1/2 in 5 & a half year old deer. Please tell me again how voluntary doesn't work


If it was mandatory, the sky's the limit...You would absolutely have new interest in the sport..


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## otcarcher (Dec 11, 2015)

Bucman said:


> I'm sorry but youngsters and less expierienced usually won't harvest older deer any how.
> When I was a younger less expended hunter that's how it was. Until o honed my skills I never would have believed that the caliber of bucks I kill now were even there. And my neighbors still don't believe it!!


Today's younger generation is light years ahead of where many of us were not that many years ago. They have access to much more information in an instant. Far greater than the tales of old grandpa sitting on his bucket. The learning curve is much shorter now. Whether you like it, or not.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

poz said:


> I have been hunting for 40 years, I've seen 2.5 yr olds every year. In Michigan the yearling buck population is only about 45% of the buck herd. So if you are not seeing older deer you are doing something wrong.
> The main reason I believe people weren't seen older deer was because they shot the first legal buck that came in. Which was usually a one-and-a-half-year-old. Then they were done hunting.


You are not the Michigan majority remember that.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

sniper said:


> Wrong, wrong and one more time, WRONG!....We've been practicing vaprs (cause that's all we can do) on our little 154 acres for 10-12 years now...Every year even on our little piece, it has become better and better...We're getting pics from deer we've passed on 2-3 years ago...Not all deer are being shot by neighbors...The cameras do not lie and never will...This is fact...I have numerous past pics of 4.5-5.5 yr olds...


Do you have that 11pt I shot last year on Cam at all? the guy to the north of us ( Nick I think his name is) passed him earlier that week I guess and shot a dandy a few weeks later. I can imagine farmlegend might have him on cam maybe.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

sniper said:


> If it was mandatory, the sky's the limit...You would absolutely have new interest in the sport..


I totally agree.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

Rut-N-Strut said:


> So voluntary APR's can work, just takes a little longer.
> 
> A few of us here on MSF have believed that all along.


It works but only on non pressured private land. Remember Michigan's hunting population is twice that of most other states. So naturally you will see more bigger bucks in those states. Now add in Michigan's hunter numbers and small acreage for the average hunter. The likely hood of the average hunter seeing a good buck are far lower.


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## Muskegonbow (Dec 31, 2006)

Lake county had the reputation of below average bucks. Something's changed in the last few years.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Muskegonbow said:


> Lake county had the reputation of below average bucks. Something's changed in the last few years.



All the poachers moved!


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## cdacker (Jan 10, 2011)

Muskegonbow said:


> Lake county had the reputation of below average bucks. Something's changed in the last few years.


I'm not sure either. I do know that the pictures we get in Missaukee the bucks appear to be older than in previous years where most pictures were 1.5 yo. Not certain if that's why they have bigger bodies and larger headgear, but it could be a possible cause.


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## Phoolish (Aug 17, 2011)

this year we've notice the biggest change in bucks. Last year was my first doing plots (still have clover and chicory out) plus we have a neighbor with like 40 acres of alfalfa so they have had plenty of food to help with growth.


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

Muskegonbow said:


> Lake county had the reputation of below average bucks. Something's changed in the last few years.


I noticed it the very first year MAPRs were in place when I saw 5 different yearling bucks chasing does on Nov 16th. That had never happened in the previous 20 years! Before that day, we always had a hard time seeing any buck past Nov 15th. The following year, I saw far more 2 year olds than running around than ever before.


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## Hybrid-Outdoors (Jul 28, 2014)

stickbow shooter said:


> So back to the thread, anyone seeing anything over the age of 2.5 ?


Stickbow, I'm seeing the same as you. Between 3 properties in Wexford totaling over 300 acres and 100 acres in Leelanau, I am just not seeing the big boys like the past couple years. It seems to be a reoccurring theme to a few guys up this way.


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## Hoytman5 (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm seeing lots of nice bucks on the 3 different properties I hunt. (Grand Traverse County) I'm also hearing of some nice ones that I haven't laid eyes on myself. I can honestly say, with APR's, I see more racked bucks now than spikes and 4's.


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## Hoytman5 (Feb 1, 2008)

Here's one. Biggest buck I've ever got on camera! 









Think this is the same buck from 2015 but I'm not positive. Huge body on both.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Beast.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Uncle Boopoo said:


> I noticed it the very first year MAPRs were in place when I saw 5 different yearling bucks chasing does on Nov 16th. That had never happened in the previous 20 years! Before that day, we always had a hard time seeing any buck past Nov 15th. The following year, I saw far more 2 year olds than running around than ever before.


Exactly. Some people don't want you seeing any yearling bucks past Nov. 15. They want to shoot them instead.


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hoytman5 said:


> Here's one. Biggest buck I've ever got on camera!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy crap. Is that NW13?


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## Hoytman5 (Feb 1, 2008)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Holy crap. Is that NW13?


Sure is!


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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

cdacker said:


> View attachment 265800
> Public land missaukee county. Damn high grading


Everyone knows there's no deer left on public land in the NW13. 99% of them got killed under APR's.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Good luck sleeping from here on out. Lol


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Pinefarm2015 said:


> Holy crap. Is that NW13?


If you quit shooting those bucks when they're young, you could have bigger ones too


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Hoytman5 said:


> I'm seeing lots of nice bucks on the 3 different properties I hunt. (Grand Traverse County) I'm also hearing of some nice ones that I haven't laid eyes on myself. I can honestly say, with APR's, I see more racked bucks now than spikes and 4's.


I'm honestly curious... How are aprs weeding out the spikes and fours from years past?


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## Hoytman5 (Feb 1, 2008)

triplelunger said:


> I'm honestly curious... How are aprs weeding out the spikes and fours from years past?


I can tell you that I honestly am seeing more racked bucks than spikes and fours. That's not to say there aren't still spikes and fours, but for me, there is definitely a difference from before APR's, a big difference in my opinion.


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## noshow (Sep 24, 2010)

Here is another state land NW13 buck


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## BaldwinHunter (Oct 4, 2016)




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## Pinefarm2015 (Nov 29, 2015)

triplelunger said:


> I'm honestly curious... How are aprs weeding out the spikes and fours from years past?


APR's aren't weeding out spikes and forks. Spikes and forks just now make up the minority of antlered bucks, instead of the majority.


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