# Getting cold feet-need .250-3000 TSX help again!



## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Well I pumped myself up on selling an old custom Savage M99 in .250-3000 for a new decked out M7 in .350 mag. 
Now I'm getting cold feet. :lol:

Many were very helpful on scope suggestions, which I'll still use in the future.

Here's my dilemma. As many gun nuts do, I'm simply looking to play with a new toy. I presently use a perfectly good, and classic, pre-64 Model 70. I'm never selling it.
But yet I still want a "new" deer rifle. I can't explain it. Either you know what I'm talking about or you don't. :lol:

I have this have this extremely nice Savage M99 that my dad lovingly offered to me, which has a beautiful custom full Mannlicher stock. As I mentioned, I have a soft spot for Mannlicher stocks. To me, there's nothing nicer. This rifle is something he bought 25 years ago at a gun show because the price was good and it's been a gun safe beauty ever since. 

My dilemma has been the caliber. The .250-3000, at least with factory ammo ballistics, is rather puny compared to most modern centerfires. 

Another dilemma is, the quality of this custom Savage is just something I wouldn't be able to duplicate for under $3000 in today's rifle world. And I am nostalgic when rifles are concerned. Even anything from the Remington Custom Shop won't be as nice.

So, this all leads me to me request for help. Does anyone have handloading ballistics for a .250-3000? What is the very best ammo I can get for the .250-3000, so that if I have a rare 250 yard shot, I can put the crosshairs on the deer and it will go down? 

I understand that the M99 came in many different rifle twists, which caused problems. This rifle appears to be a late model with the faster (better) twist, since it has a tang safety and is drilled and tapped.

With a Remington factory 100gr at 250 yards, the bullet drops about 9" and has only some 900 ft/lbs. That's cool if I hit dead lungs, but what if something bad happens (and it could) and I hit the shoulder or the hips? With the '06 or .350, that deer goes down. Know what I mean? 

Stars and Stripes Ammo does speciality ammo for the .250-3000. They load it in 100gr TSX. 
For comparison, Rem factory 100gr PSP ammo has 2820 FPS at muzzle and Stars and Stripes with the 100gr TSX has 3065 FPS listed. (They won't offer further ballistics, nor energy at muzzle)

Can any of you handoading experts tell me how this difference will translate in the field? 

Again, not that I really expect many shots at that range at all, but even at close range, if you have the right caliber, you can "make things happen" on non-broadside shots.  If ya know what I mean. :evilsmile

I guess the bottom line is, if I have a .250-3000 in a 100gr TSX pushing 3000 plus at muzzle, am I going to have any issue's on say, a "Texas Heart Shot" at 100 yards or if a small sapling is right infront of the deer at 100 yards? 
A "Texas Heart Shot" with the '06 or .350 at 100 yards and that deer is dead before it hits the ground.

See what I'm trying to ask? If not, then I'll have to look for a caliber with bulk, because I'm used to "making things happen", and they always work out. 

Thanks in advance!


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

I punched that bullet at that velocity (3065 fps) into my ballistics software(with 100 yard zero):

At 100 yards, your velocity will be still be more than Rem or the Winchester ammo, 2836 fps with 1786 fpe. 

At 200 yards - 2619 fps, 1523 fpe and a drop of 2.83". 
At 250 yards - 2515 fps, 1404 fpe and a drop of 6.1". 

Now I will say that my ballistic software lists that bullet with a BC of 0.421 while Barnes website lists it as 0.370. For comparison I plugged in the 100 grain Nosler Partition which is listed as a BC of 0.377 and here is what is shows in comparison to the above:

100 yards - 2810 fps, 1753 fpe 
200 yards - 2570 fps, 1467 fpe drop 2.91"
250 yards - 2455 fps, 1338 fpe drop 6.29"

However I will add, what makers claim and what you get can be two difference things when it comes to velocity. Is their velocity out of a 26" barrel? Just some food for thought on that, esp if you have a 20" barrel on that Savage. It'd be interesting to chrony some of it. But overall it should offer better performance that's for sure and an improvement. But I wouldn't go as far as trying Texas heart shots...then again I'm not a fan of them anyway.


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

.250-3000 is a great whitetail caliber. I just acquired a Ruger M77 Ultralight in it. I've had several .250 Savages in the past. Depending on the twist rate you can load it up to 120 gr. bullets with no problem. If the rifle and shooter were up to it, I would have no problem taking a 250 yard lung shot or with the right bullet, even a high shoulder shot. Would not take a Texas heart shot or intentionally shoot through a sapling with any caliber, but that's just a personal decision. I understand the yearning for another rifle but if it involved selling one that had been given to me by my Dad, I would come up with an alternative means for financing the new acquisition.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Thanks M1. I'm not a huge fan of the Texas Heart Shot (THS) either. I've only taken 1-2 out of 100's of deer and maybe at 75 yards on bucks chasing does that finally stopped.

Trust me, if I take another one in the next 20 years it'll be a fluke. I just like the option or at least knowing if I can or can't. If I can't, I won't. 

The THS is not my issue and I hope I didn't make it the focus of my post. But I do like a good punch of knock down, just in case the hit isn't perfect. Again, 98% of the time, that's not an issue. And truth be told, I really can't recall the last time I actually pulled the trigger on a deer with a centerfire. Maybe 6-7 years ago? I mostly use arrows to fill the freezer and then a muzzleloader to fill the rest.

My question/dilemma is almost more semantics based, if that makes any sense. When the time comes that I do pull the trigger with a centerfire, and at a fluke 250 yards, I want to make certain that I'm not lobbing in a .32 Win Special at the animal.


But looking at what you provided, it appears to be more than adequate. A 3" drop at 200 yards and 6" at 250-ish with 1300-1400 ft/lbs makes me feel MUCH better. I can live with that. 
If that shot 200 yard shot ever arrives, I'll hold just below the spine.

Keep any other bullet choice advice coming, but I think I'll keep the rifle and at least hunt with it for a year or two and see how it "feels". 


When I get it in my possession, I'll post a pic. Right now it's safe in my dad's safe. But when you see it, I think you'll understand my change of heart. It's a special piece. 

Thanks M1!


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Munsterlndr said:


> I understand the yearning for another rifle but if it involved selling one that had been given to me by my Dad, I would come up with an alternative means for financing the new acquisition.


That was diplomatic.

I would have phrased it as "There is a special place in hell just for people who sell off firearms inherited from their fathers or grandfathers." :lol:

-na


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

My dad is very much alive and very much kicking! :lol:
He just asked me if there was any rifle I wanted use or any rifle I wanted to sell in order to buy another that I might use.
Since this rifle has sat unfired in his safe for the last quarter century, I figured it was a good one to use to take him up on his enormously generous offer.


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

You'd be better off finding your wife a higher paying job than selling your dad's guns. :lol:

-na


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

You gotta admit, that Remington M7 MS is pretty sweet. 

Like this thread started, I got cold feet about selling it. I'm keeping the M99. Not because it was a gun passed down, but only because it's such a unique rifle. 
Now I just need to find the best possible specialty ammo "factory handload" to do the best overall job. 

Nick, I do agree, if a gun is passed down, there is a special place. But this gun was offered up for sale by the present owner, so that doesn't quite apply. 

BTW, I did buy $5 worth of lotto tickets today, so I think all money issue's are over!:lol:


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

PF, if you do get that S & S ammo and are interested in actually chronying it so you know exactly how it's performing out of your rifle, let me know, we can run it over my chrony sometime. And I nope, I sure didn't take the focus of your post as the THS. And I agree, if an opportunity presents itself, you want to make sure that you have enough gun to make a clean kill as we all know we don't always get the perfect broadside shot and get tough angles. That's another plus of that TSX is it will penetrate at those tough angles if needed very well.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

M1, thanks! I'd be very interested in that. I'm not far from you. Or if you ever want to spend a day at my property, we could find out there.

I have another question. Lots of guys chrony their black powder too. But wouldn't the smoke somehow get all over the chrony? Do guys that do that usually have a chrony that they use just for black powder?
If no issue, I'd love to find out what my .58 roundball is pushing. I shoot 2F black powder and worked loads all the way to 120grs. My rifle seems to love 80gr's with the roundball. At 35 yards, the roundballs are tearing one big hole with 80gr's. With 120gr's, they were all over. 
I also tested with Buffalo Ball-et's, which is a short half conical in the rear/half roundball in the front and is another 100gr's heavier in weight than the roundball. Great on deer. At 80gr's of powder, it was fine. At 120gr's, I even missed the whole target a couple times.
I'd be interested to find out FPS with those at 80gr's too.
Let me know if cool with black powder.
Thanks again!
When I get a scope on that .250-3000, I'll let you know.


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## kumma (Jul 12, 2002)

Do you have any pictures of the 99, sounds like a nice gun? I shoot my grandpa's 99 a couple times a year, just doesnt seem right to let it sit in the safe.


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## PA BUCK 2 (Oct 17, 2006)

I have 3 deer rifles.... would not sell anyone of them to get a 4th... I guess I am one of those guys that will not sell any perfectly good weapon... But I will keep adding to my collection. Just get the M7 .350 remington and keep that M99 too!!!


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Well the custom M7 is about $2500 and the scope's I'm looking at are $600-900. So just going out and getting it won't be so easy. :lol:

You guys may not understand, my dad and I have probably bought and sold 200 quality guns over the years. Selling a rifle to me isn't much of a sin, unless there's peronal sentiment attached. 
We have a few guns that are untouchable, sale wise.
But if it's a gun picked up in an ad or gun show, it can be swapped. IMHO


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I just talked to the guy at Stars and Stripes and he's quite the M99 guru! He said he's got as big of a M99 collection as anyone. I believe he said he owns over 400 of them and many of the earliest models in the rarest calibers. That's M99 collector! This guy knew EVERYTHING about M99's.

He said the big issue's with the Savage .250-3000 is the rifle twist. Most .250's have a 1:16 or 1:14 twist and won't stabilize anything heavier than an 87gr bullet well and most do OK with 100gr, but not in any Barnes bullets.
The M99 my dad has is the M99CD,, which was made in the 1970's, which is good. It either has a 1:12 or 1:10 rifle twist. So, I can at least use the 117gr round nose in either twist and if it's 1:10, he said I could use a Barnes TSX. He said that I'd be happy with the 117gr round nose up to 200 yards, but that it still won't perform anything like a 100gr TSX, at any range. He said with the 100gr TSX, I could take about any shot at any angle and get complete penetration and bullet weight retention.

He said that the Savage M99 in .250-3000 in the M99 is about the hardest to load for out of any rifle because there are so many barrel differences and that Savage used different twists on many models with no rhyme or reason and would switch barrels mid-production in any given year. Kind of a mess.

Now I just have to determine the twist.

He made another suggestion that I might take. He said if I decided to never sell the rifle, I could easily rechamber/rebarrel it for a .257 or .260 and maybe even a 7mm-08 and have to nothing with the magazine. Now, we all know that would destroy resell value, but it is an option.

I'm going to figure out the twist and either go with the 117gr round nose or the 100gr TSX, if it's a 1:10 twist for at least a year or two.
If I love the rifle and decide never to sell it but I'm not as happy with my ammo options with the factory Savage barrel twist I have, I could always choose another caliber.

I believe Williams does that kind of work on M99's. Does anyone have anything bad to say about Williams? I've never heard anything but good things.

But if I'm lucky, it's a 1:10 twist and I can use the 100gr TSX, pushing 3100fps and I'll have nothing to screw with.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I bet if you ask nicely Boyds custom stocks would make you a nice pink laminate stock set to nicely match that little girls caliber.....somebodies 12 year old daughter would really like it!:evil::lol:

Kidding ofcourse!! Can't blame you for not wanting to let go of a nice M99. They are sweet guns and the .250-3000 is a classic. I remember reading a number of old articles and stories where writers and hunters where falling in love with this new lightning fast little round and how it killed literally like lightning. Good stuff some of those old stories. With todays bullets, it should be plenty affective.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Pinefarm said:


> M1, thanks! I'd be very interested in that. I'm not far from you. Or if you ever want to spend a day at my property, we could find out there.
> 
> I have another question. Lots of guys chrony their black powder too. But wouldn't the smoke somehow get all over the chrony? Do guys that do that usually have a chrony that they use just for black powder?


I don't think it'd be an issue. I normally put it about 10 ft from the muzzle. About the only issue I can recall with chrony's are cast bullets with gas checks as they can damage the front screen. Other than that...a simple piece of cardboard or something over the front as a precaution anyway. But I also remember hearing the muzzle flash from BP's can affect it but I guess it's something that can be found out easily enough. It'd be interesting to see what a roundball's velocity is. Heck I threw some rocks threw it one day to see if it'd register....it did. And I was a dismal 70 fps :lol:


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Swamp,
Or I could get the stock in yella! :lol: I'll call it "'ol yella belly". :lol:
With the full Mannlicher stock, this M99 is also very heavy. I think a 6 year old could shoot it. Recoil won't exist.

I sure went from one end of the spectrum to the other, didn't I? 
.350 mag to .250-3000. 

I just stopped at Al and Bob's and talked to Jeff the gunsmith. He's gonna figure the rifle twist for me. Plus he had a Leupold M99 mount there that he set off to the side AND they have the Kahles 2x7x36 I wanted, in stock, with a competitive price.

I'll post pics when I get it set up. Maybe mid-Feb.


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

Pinefarm, if the serial number of that rifle has a letter in front of it, or is over 1 million, it has a 1:10 twist, I can defini9tvely say this, I have a Site dedicated to the 1895, 1899, and the 99. that 1:10 will stabilize the barnes 100's without a problem. I use them myself. There are quite a few guru's over at the 24hour campfire under the savage rifles forum. They have oodles of knowl;edge, if you give me the serial number with the last tow digits x'd out I can even date it for you. By the way, I have had a few of them my self, right now I have 4, my dad has 7, and one of my buddies has about 250 1895's and then a whole boat load of the 99 H carbines. So yeah, I have a pretty good clue about the. My web site is http://savagela.org and there are quite a few pics of folks that have used 250 for Deer. PM me if you have any questions, I'll do what I can to help you. Les


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## PA BUCK 2 (Oct 17, 2006)

Pinefarm-

Maybe you look at buying a used M7 in .350 rem mag. I think you can get one fairly cheap. Then do the changes to the rifle with you local smith or on your own... I am guessing you can do a bunch with the $$$ you have compared to that custom rem job. Plus it is fun to do!!!

We have a M99 in .300 savage... Nice rifle and I like hunting deer with it. My brother had a .250- it shot .100 grain hornady bullets well and killed many deer with it.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Violator, great info! Thanks! I assume it's 1:10 with this info?
Here's what's on the barrel. I'll give you the whole thing. I'll just kill anyone who tries to steal it. LOL
Serial #...CO49255
Model 99 CD Series A

It has a full mannlicher stock and Jeff the gunsmith at Al and Bob's said he's seen one in the past and he was pretty certain it was a factory custom option. 


PA, what I'll end up doing now is simply lower my dreams a bunch and ditch the thought of the high end Remington custom shop M7 and get just a standard M7 CDL or look for a M7 in .350 with a laminated stock. I think the factory still makes that.

On a similar note, my buddy Geoff just called and was driving back from a work stint in Ohio and was stopping at Cabela's. If you recall, you mentioned the M7 .350 Cabela's had in the rack. I called Cabela's on it the other day to find out what it was and they said it was in their clearance rack for around $675. 
My buddy is looking for a thick cover rifle and I told him to buy it. Anyhow, he just called back and it's GONE! :lol: Somebody scooped that deal up.

Violator, can't wait to hear your results!


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Pinefarm said:


> On a similar note, my buddy Geoff just called and was driving back from a work stint in Ohio and was stopping at Cabela's. If you recall, you mentioned the M7 .350 Cabela's had in the rack. I called Cabela's on it the other day to find out what it was and they said it was in their clearance rack for around $675.
> My buddy is looking for a thick cover rifle and I told him to buy it. Anyhow, he just called back and it's GONE! :lol: Somebody scooped that deal up.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

You didn't...:lol:
Did you? That'd be funny if it was you.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Pinefarm said:


> You didn't...:lol:
> Did you? That'd be funny if it was you.



No, I didn't. I did call on it though to see what the price was on Tuesday I think? I thought, I'd drive down there Saturday or Sunday if you didn't make a post about buying it this Friday. Didn't want to hose in on your search. That was a good price. I figured it would still be around since the market is not exactly hot for .350 Rem Mags, but guess not. Someone knew exactly what they were buying is my guess. 


Looking forward to seeing pics of the M99 when it's all set up. You don't see many mannlicher stocked M99's...at least I haven't in my limited travels so it sounds like it will be one sweet gun. 

If someday you rebarrel it like you mentioned, don't rule out the .284 Win if you handload. Another buddy has a 99 in .284.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

I wish you had bought it. Getting another wouldn't be an issue. 

We had a .284 when I was a kid. It's a super round. But we had it in a Winchester Model 100, which was a POS rifle IMHO (no offense to M100 owners) and the .284 being in the M100 probably brought about the death of the .284. The rifle jammed all the time and is the biggest reason why I hate semi-auto rifles and will never suggest one, ever, unless it's a .22 rimfire.
Winchester still makes factory .284 in 150gr. That'd be a good choice too.


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

It was made in November of 1975, the CD was an Upgraded model of the 99 C, great rifle, and I would really appreciate if you could email me a few pics of it, for the web site. [email protected] I can tell you, the factory didn't do any custom mannlicher stocks that late in the game. One of my buddies has a direct line to the Savage historian, and he confirmed it for me. But I am a sucker for the mannlicher design too. 

Heck, Bill Ruger even took a few 99's and made them into pumps. the 30-06 was even tried, there are 2 that I know of, one is a fully functioning model, the other is only a single shot. Les


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

Pinefarm said:


> ... I hate semi-auto rifles and will never suggest one, ever, unless it's a .22 rimfire...


...or an M1 Garand.

-na


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## Munsterlndr (Oct 16, 2004)

Nick Adams said:


> ...or an M1 Garand.
> 
> -na


Or a Remington model 8......


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

Them Reminigton Model 8's and 81's remind me of trying to shoot a Pogo stick, they are quite abusive, I had one in 300 Sav, and with heavy 180 loads, I swear my 99 kicked way less than that Remmy did. But the takedown feature on them is quite neat. Les


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Nick, the M1 sure has a following. Should I say "typical hunting" semi-auto. 
There was a Reminton semi-auto in the 1950's that was a "jammer" too. I don't recall the model, but I recall as a kid, the older guys at camp all saying it was notoriuos for jamming.
Anyone recall the model?


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

Model 81, they are pretty bad if they aren't kept well oiled. CMP has Garands at 495 right now. Les


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Violator, great info! Thanks. 
I just called my dad and I got the whole story. His good buddy Don used to have one of the finer Winchester pre-64 M70 collections out there. Don went around the country finding NIB pre-64's and in all calibers. In the end, Don ultimately had one of every caliber pre-64's NIB, in even the rarest of calibers.

Anyhow, Don went down to Dallas to the big, high end gun shop there for a particular M70 (we can't recall the name, but it's like a big Jaqua's and is still there. I think it's the largest high end gun store in the country. Anyone know the name?)
While he was there, he called my dad and said they had this M99. With it was a letter from Savage saying that it was a one of a kind special order rifle made by Savage for a member of either the Romainian or Hungarian Royal Family, living here in the states. It was somebody down the Royal line, not a King, more like a 3rd prince, twice removed kinda thing (My dad says he has the letter somewhere, but he's looked and cannot recall which drawer it's in, nor can he remember which of the two country's.):lol:
Evidently, the person spent himself broke and the gun collection was sold at auction.
He said this store, like Jaqua's, is very reputable. Now, it's possible the letter is bogus. The work and fit sure seems like custom factory. But even if not, it's still a super piece. (Just too bad it's in .250-3000, hunting wise) :lol:

Now if the Savage historian says it's not the case, I'd have to believe him. But if possible, ask if Savage ever made special order customs.

BTW, found your site while surfing. Nice site! I marked it on my favorites even before you listed it here.

I have 2 other Q's. Is this rifle a 1:10 twist with that serial #? Second, can I still buy a factory "clip", new? Or do I have to surf to find an extra one?

Thanks again for all the help. I'll certainly send you pics.


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

1st, with Savage Rifles anything is possible, the Historian, say with the right amount o9f Money, yeah they could have done it, but it wouldn't be on the books. 2nd, your rifle is definitely a 1:10 twist, and 3rd, the clips pop up on gunbroker and fleabay from time to time. Occasionally numrich's has them. be about 30.00 to 50.00. You can use any of the magazines, from 243 to 308, they are all interchangeable, except for the 284 mag, it is slightly different. Les


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Very cool. So 100gr TSX it is! 
I'll keep checking online for an extra clip. If by chance you catch one online and think about it, PM me. Or if you're at some collectors event sometime and see one in good shape, snap it up and I'll send you a check.

I'll tell you what the wood on this M99 looks like. If you go to your site and hit pictures, then go to customs at the bottom. It looks quite a bit like Luv's99's250's and the 2nd one up from the bottom. The wood is also similar to DaveO's284, but probably nicer and in full stock.
For anyone interested...
http://savagela.org/

Like I said, this rifle has sat in the back of the safe for 20 some years. I have to look at it again myself. Some may think it's foolish that I ever considered selling it, but my dad was wiping down his rifles and since we've never even fired this rifle, he called and asked "what do you want to do with that .250? Since it's never been used by us and my dad is getting up there in years, he offered "if you don't think you'll use it, consider it yours to sell and buy something else that you think you'd use". Quite the generous offer from the old man, in my book. And that's all there was to it.
But luckily, I came to my senses and am keeping it. LOL


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

I am not a collector by any means, I am just a cretaker, if someone wants one of my 99's for the right price it will go, all but my 99 T in 303 Savage, Got a Nice Stith no drill mount on it, and it has a weaver K3 with 4 Power glass in it. Les


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## Violator22 (Nov 10, 2004)

No problem on the help, I think you will find that 100 grain TSX will do anything up to Big Cow Elk out to 200 yards. The 250, is actually a superior round to the 243, and I will argue that with any one. Les


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