# Muzzleloader Question - Which one to choose?



## caseman (Apr 22, 2004)

I am looking to buy a muzzleloader. I have read many threads on here and other sites. I need some additional advice. I am picky when it comes to quality and it seems I always want to buy the best gun (I have learned the lesson of "you get what you pay for"). I want a gun that is very accurate and can shoot accurately enough to kill a deer at 200 yards (maybe beyond). I also want to be able to clean this thing easily as well. It seems I always see deer that are well beyond the limit of my old, unaccurate, hard to clean, Knight muzzleloader. 

I have read many good things about Ultimate Firearms. The gun is damn expensive (out of my budget at this point), but the company has customers that have shot very tight groups at 400 yards, killed deer that far, etc.

I have also heard many good things on Thompson Center. I am confused with all their models and which is better. Encore? Omega? Triumph? I hear about a pro-hunter model.

My questions are:

1. What is the "deer killing" range of a muzzleloader from Ultimate Firearms in the hands of an average shooter? 200 yards? 250? 300?

2. How does Thompson Center stack up against Ultimate Firemarms with regards to ease of cleaning and kill distance?

3. What other models should I be researching that will allow me to shoot accurately out to 200 yards and then some?

Thanks for the info...this will help me start researching my purchase.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Instead of trying to take long shots at game with a muzzleloader, I would first try my best to close the distance. Most all of the modern muzzleloaders available today will kill at the range you mention, however there are many variables to consider such as wind speed, game movement at the moment of the shot, I could go on. Not to mention the hours of practice at the range required to be consistently accurate at those ranges. As far as muzzleloaders, the best depends on how well it handles a particular load. I use TC Encore and Remington 700 ML. Both are very accurate at reasonable ranges, meaning that I limit my shots to 100 yards or less if possible. I know the capabilities of both weapons, but my capability stops at about 150 yards. It takes a certain amount of trial and error at the range to determine the accuracy using different loads and bullet weights. This is something that must be done to achieve the utmost performance for hunting. The break-open muzzleloaders such as the Encore and CVA and a few others are probably the easiest to clean. I would say for my money the Encore or the Pro Hunter are top quality. Also the fact that the barrels are interchangeable is also a nice feature. I use a 30-06 barrel on my Encore also. I'm not familiar with Ultimate firearms so I cannot comment. One piece of advice, if and when you decide on a muzzleloader, top it off with as good of a scope as you can possibly afford. As far as I am concerned the optics are just as important if not more so than the firearm.


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## Critter (Mar 3, 2006)

What Knight model do you currently have? The Knight Extreme, Elite, and Long Range Hunter will all get the job done your asking it to do (200 yards) for a lot less money than the Ultimate. Using Westerns new Blackhorn 209 powder several reports of sub MOA 200 yard groups are surfacing with pictures to back them up.


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## caseman (Apr 22, 2004)

My Knight is old school....BK-85 or somehting like that? 100 yards max for accuracy.

I agree on trying to close the distance. I just was looking for a ML that can extend my shot range while still maintaining accuracy.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

I think that Critter gave good advice. I am not up to speed on the latest and greatest as far as powders and projectiles, but it sounds like there have been alot of improvements in the last few years to help with downrange accuracy. I have been using my current set-up as far as load and bullet for so long now it seems, there is no doubt better stuff out there to help increase range. I guess I am just not so confident in my own ability to deliver a killing shot at any more than 150 yds, but for sure it can be done and I have no doubt that with today's powder and bullets it is being done now.


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## chemo13 (May 10, 2006)

I shoot T/c encore. I don't shoot on a regular basis, and found this gun very user friendly. Last season I shot a deer 127 yrds (via range finder) perfectly in the vitals. I was using 100 grains of powder.

I love my encore so much I have stopped using my slug


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## Anderson (May 17, 2005)

I currently shoot a TC Omega. I like the lines of the Omega and have shot it accurately out to 200 yards. My hunting limit though is 150 yards and the gun has performed very well. I cannot speak to the Ultimate and the long ranges they advertise. Most muzzleloaders however are pushing a heavy bullet at a relatively slow speed and wind drift is a very big factor in shooting longer distances. The Omega is simple to operate and I don't have a problem cleaning it. I'm currently in the market for another ML for my son and the Omega is on my short list due to the quality, accuracy and price point. I also agree that good optics are also very important. I currently have a Nikon and a Leupold on two of my ML and they have held up well.

Tim


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

there's a lot of assumptions as of late that "any" of the high end muzzleloaders are 200 yard guns. i generally assume that people that make these claims have never shot a muzzleloader at 200 yards.

i gave up shotgunning a number of years ago, and have focused on muzzleloading. i've owned a number of muzzleloaders of various styles.

a muzzleloader that shoots accurately at 200 yards is more a testament to the shooter's ability and commitment to load development than the muzzleloader itself.

want a 200 yard muzzleloader? buy a savage 10mlII. or an encore. or a knight disc elite. or a TC Omega. any multitude of mid to high end models offered by savage, knight or thompson center will get the job done.

the weak link in muzzleloading is the sabot. sabot problems often don't manifest themselves in 100 yard shots. but can fall apart at 200 yards.

every bore, even by the same manufacturer, is cut with a small variance. to get a 200 yard gun, you need to match sabot to bullet to bore size.

to get a 200 yard gun -
- throw away sabots supplied with bullets. better yet, look for bullets that can be bought in bulk without sabots. buy sabots separately. i use mmp's or harvesters.

- find the sabot that fits your bore well, based on the bullet size. for my savage, the mmp short black, or mmp HPH12 fit very tight for .451/.452" bullets. you want it as tight as you can get, while still being able to load it in the field. i know that these two sabots will work the best for ANY .451/.452 diameter bullet.

- given that the sabot is the weak link, generally, the thinner the sabot wall, the more accurate the load. .458" bullets with an orange MMP sabot, or black crushed rib harvester sabot, will often times be the most accurate bullet in a particular gun.

- choose a bullet with a high ballistic coefficient. that pretty much rules out the 250 grain or less bullets. BC goes up with bullet weight per bore size, so the most accurate loads i've found have been in the 275-300 grain range, with 300 grains being the magic number most times. a pointed bullet, such as the parker hydra-con or the hornady SST gets an even better BC, and will fair much better at 200 than the XTP's, with the relatively low BC.

- don't even bother starting at 100 yards for a 200 yard load. i've shot loads that are relatively un-impressive at 100 yards - 1.5", maybe 2". but when shot at 200, will stay at 2.5"-3" - a solidly accurate 200 yard load. i've also shot loads that will group at .75" at 100, only to fall apart at 200 - going to 5, 6, 7, 8" groups.

- generally, max speeds to not get the best accuracy. tone it down a little for accuracy - knowing that drop is very predictable.

finally - anyone interested in the most accurate, clean powder to see the market yet needs to investigate blackhorn209. i'll post more on that later.


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## caseman (Apr 22, 2004)

RZDRMH - that was an informative post. Looking forward to reading more on your blackhorn powder.


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## bucko12pt (Dec 9, 2004)

I purchased an Ultimate 4 years ago and my longest kill to date on a whitetail is 268 (lasered) yards. I shoot a fair amount over the summer, but I'm not into range shooting on a regular basis. I purchased it because I hunt several midwestern states that offer long range shots and shotguns and production ML don't get it done for me. 

I choose my shots carefully, have a good rest etc, or I don't take them. My ML is sighted for 200 yards. I've made many long distance shots with my 7mm Mag, so I'm used to shooting long distance at game and comfortable with where my weapon will be shooting.

Guys get very passionate about guns, religion and politics, so I won't get into one gun over another. I will say, I have 7 different ML and the Ultimate is a step above all the production ML. It is quite capable of shooting accurately to 300 plus yards and is the easiest to clean of any ML. There is absolutely nothing that comes back into the action area and you never have to pull the breech plug so cleaning is a snap. Run a few patches down the barrel, lube it and you're done.

If you are interested in an Ultimate, contact Deputy on this site. He is fairly close to you and shoots his Ultimate's a lot. I'm sure he could give you some additional advice and possibly invite you to shoot with him.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

muzzleloaders or not, we simply cannot overcome physics.

why is a 50 cal muzzleloader not like a 30-06? because the bullet that we shoot, even at 300 grains, is a pretty poor representation of a ballistic coefficient. to put it in perspective - a 50 BMG is firing a bullet that is in the 700-750 grain range. a 30-06 shooting a .308" bullet that's 180 grains is going to have a great BC, and that's why it can be shot so far so accurately.

given that, if i were looking to greatly extend my range - and specifically - to make a 300 yard muzzleloader, i'd be dropping my bore size. simply doing that, with keeping bullet weight high, will get you that much better of a ballistic coeffcient. as we're all aware - the BC is generally going to get us better accuracy at longer ranges, but primarily because it "cuts" the wind better. the 300 grain XTP that i shoot has 13" of wind drift (10 mph crosswind) at 200 yards. the 300 grain SST that I shoot has 8". that's a huge advantage. and because of the BC, i shave 4-5" off my drop with the SST, when traveling approximately the same speed at the muzzle.

so what does one do? right now, buy a 45. shoot a 40 cal bullet. your only limitation is that there's not as many bullets to choose from. but talk about a long range muzzleloader.

how's this for performance. my hunting partner purchased a knight disc elite 45 cal on clearance from a website for $199, nearly half off. (actually, he bought 3 of them, but that's another story). a few weeks ago, we got our hands on some of the blackhorn209 from midway. got the 200 grain, 40 cal SST to shoot with the tan mmp 45/40 sabot. 120 grains of blackhorn209 produced the following results out of that "cheap" rifle:

1.49", 3 shot group at 200 yards.
muzzle velocity of 2,450 fps (with no more than a 10 fps deviation on all the shots!)
2" high at 100, 2" low at 200.

and to think, i'm happy with MOA at 200 with my savage!

that's not even the best of it. there's a segment of the muzzleloading population that are taking their muzzleloaders and having them re-barreled to 40 cals (this has been the case with smokeless for some time.) then they are shooting .357, .358" bullets from them, with the blue mmp sabots, and getting 2500 fps+, with MOA accuracy!

people in michigan simply aren't paying attention. blackhorn209 is the REAL DEAL, and its not getting press here for some reason.

it's completely smashed the "smokeless powder" barrier. because, essentially, that's what it is. no swabbing, no cleaning. (i know, you've heard it before, but its real). fast velocities. consistent burn rates. but it's labeled as a "black powder sub".

take a look at it. its a short cut, hollow, extruded powder. looks very similar to IMR SR 4759. (which incidentally, is a very accurate smokeless powder load out of my savage). smells just like smokeless powder.

best i can tell is that they bulked it up with a non-corrosive material that makes some smoke, and allows it to be measured volumetrically. but make no bones about it, its nitrocellulose.

and as guys catch on, it will kill all other black powder subs. i fully expect hodgdon to answer with a smokeless of its own, cause western powders is going to dominate the market.

its not cheap - around $33 for 10 ounces, which is a "volumetric" pound when compared to other black powder subs. but its money well spent.

incidentally, i should say that i prefer true smokeless powder out of my savage - i don't want to sound like a rep for blackhorn powder. but its impressive, very impressive. and makes the "no smokeless powder during muzzleloader season" even more of a farce than it was.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

i'll also say this.

legitimate contenders for 200 yard muzzleloaders should be looking for a moderately fast barrel twist.

the heavier bullet you shoot by bore size, the faster the twist you need.

with smokeless powder in my savage, i'm pushing a 300 grain bullet 2400 fps.

the savage is a pretty fast twist - 1:24", vs. the 1:28, or 1:30 that is common among many of the TC's and knights.

the heavier bullet you use, and the faster you push it, the quicker the twist you want to have.


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## Adam Gibbs (Jul 13, 2006)

take a drive up to hicks in clio. they carry the knight long range hunter, and t/c.

if i were to pick one, it would be the t/c pro hunter, because i like the features that it had. very accurate and extremely easy to clean.


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## LungBuster 21 (Oct 5, 2006)

check out williamsgunsight.com for a good selection of used ml's. also i've found their staff in davison to be very helpful with good advise.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Nice to have an expert in these muzzleloader forums.


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## TheNatural (Jan 16, 2006)

for the price and quality. they even make the interchangable barrel now. my dad was shooting one for a couple years and loved it he was sighted in for 150y but was comfortable shooting longer but rarely needed. just got to really take the time to get to know your gun and what works best with it.


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## eddiejohn4 (Dec 23, 2005)

I also have a knight mk85. I have shot deer out to two hundred with it. It all depends on the loads you have worked up for your particular rifle.

As far as knight being inaccurate I disagree and have taken many with this fine rifle. I also use a win apex 150 in 45 cal and again find this rifle to be highly accurate with the proper load.

What ever you buy ,the accuracy will depend on you and the loads that suit your particular rifle best.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

eddiejohn4 said:


> I also have a knight mk85. I have shot deer out to two hundred with it. It all depends on the loads you have worked up for your particular rifle.
> 
> As far as knight being inaccurate I disagree and have taken many with this fine rifle. I also use a win apex 150 in 45 cal and again find this rifle to be highly accurate with the proper load.
> 
> What ever you buy ,the accuracy will depend on you and the loads that suit your particular rifle best.


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## UkiahDog (May 12, 2008)

I'm not going to go over the cartridge debate we just had. 

It's really pretty obvious stuff though. Don't use "range" as a criteria for what you buy. Come on, you get one shot. Make it a good one, please.

I just bought a TC Pro Hunter with the thumbhole stock and I'm so fired up over it. I did a lot of research.

Plus, I like being able to put any barrel on it. That's a fun gun.

Also, later on, you could get some custom engraving on the frame and have all your calibers customized for the price of one. That's a good way to create a cool heirloom stash of multiple calibers.

One of my requirements was that it was made in America, and Thompson is.


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## caseman (Apr 22, 2004)

Thanks for all the info guys...I double checked my Knight...it is actually a MK-92, not the BK-85 I mentioned earlier. The MK-92 is a pre-209 primer ML. I am ready for an upgrade to say the least.


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