# For those who are concerned about season dates....



## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

I saw this on the New York DEC page shows an explanation for each season dates and why they were chosen... I found some of this info rather interesting, considering all of the hard feelings sometimes over dates in Michigan... Maybe it migh serve the CWAC justice to provide similar write-ups for the seasons back in the mitten...

May help get more opinions and explanations out there... 

*Western Zone
Duck Hunting Season 2012-13
Regular Season Dates:
Oct 27 (Sat) - Dec 9 (Sun) & Dec 29 (Sat) - Jan 13 (Sun)
Youth Days:
Oct 13 (Sat) & Oct 14 (Sun)
The Western Zone Waterfowl Hunter Task Force met on April 28, 2012, to develop recommendations for waterfowl hunting season dates. They provided the following rationale for the above dates:

The US Fish and Wildlife Service, which has management authority on migratory birds, provided a framework of a maximum of 60 days in the 2012-13 season. The framework allows a 60-consecutive day season ("straight season") or one divided into two blocks totaling 60 days ("split season"). The Service does not allow dividing the season into more than two blocks (while keeping NY's 5 zones). The task force prefers the split season for the Western Zone.

The split season structure allows the best opportunity for the diverse waterfowl hunting interests in the Western Zone. This year's 44-16 split season is designed to accommodate avid and occasional waterfowl hunters, and those who hunt marshes and smaller bodies of water as well as those that hunt the big waters in all the regions of the western zone from the Southern Tier to Lake Ontario and from the Niagara River to the Finger Lakes.


The USF&WS framework also set the outside dates for beginning and ending of the 2012-13 duck season as Sept. 22, 2012 and Jan. 27, 2013 (128 days). The Task Force was charged with setting the 60 day season within the 128-day framework in a manner that provides the best opportunity for hunting waterfowl in the Western Zone.

The task force desires to cover the peak of duck migration in the Western Zone. We use all available harvest and observational data, and combine this with personal experience to determine these peak days. We welcome all opinions and observations through direct contact throughout the year or via the email link on the DEC website.

The first split provides 44 days with 7 full weekends and the entire Thanksgiving holiday. The second split provides 16 hunting days and 3 full weekends. Weekend dates were maximized to allow opportunity for working adults and school-aged hunters to participate.

Opening day is scheduled for a Saturday as surveys have shown a weekend opening date is preferred by most hunters in the Western Zone. The second split also opens on a Saturday.

Surveys show that the majority of hunters desire to have the duck and goose seasons open on the same day. Current policy for hunting the migrant Atlantic population of Canada geese requires that the goose season opens no earlier than the fourth Saturday in October (Oct 27, 2012). The task force placed a high priority on opening the duck season on the same day as the goose season.

The opening date of October 27 provides opportunity to hunt ducks migrating through the zone as a priority over hunting locally-produced waterfowl and early migrants. This later start date also drew support within the task force due to observations of later migrations and milder fall and winter weather.

Task force members have observed that duck hunting success rapidly declines after the first few days whenever the season begins in early to mid October because the hunting pressure causes local birds to leave the area. Duck harvest does not begin to pick up again until larger numbers of migrant ducks begin to arrive in the zone as the winter weather pushes birds south out of Canada.

Many hunters have also expressed their interest in an open season that runs into the first week of December. The ending date of December 9 for the first split provides these hunters that early December opportunity. This hunt time is important to hunters in the Western Zone for strong migrations, and for opportunity on smaller lakes that typically freeze over in mid December.

The 16-day second split, beginning in late December, was developed to provide opportunity to hunt waterfowl on the larger waters and rivers that do not freeze over. The January days provide excellent late-season hunting valued by many Finger Lakes hunters. Surveys show that Western Zone duck hunters find late December to mid January nearly as important as late October to mid November.

The second split includes 6 weekend days when young hunters are off from school and many adults are off from work. The task force believes the December 29 (Sat) opening is preferable to the weekdays after Christmas Day when many hunters do not have time off or would be involved in other activities.

Youth Days are October 13 & 14 (Sat and Sun) and will provide a break of 12 days before the regular season starts. It will also match the youth pheasant season which will enhance opportunity to promote these important times in the field with young hunters. The task force preferred to avoid the youth deer season on Columbus Day weekend as a more significant conflict of interest for youth and mentors.

The opening date of October 27 avoids overlapping the pheasant opener (scheduled for October 20th this year).*


See the full site here http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/28513.html


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

I'm sure LoBrass or someone will chime in, but basically here in Michigan the DNR's internal "waterfowl workgroup" (which appears to be similar to the workgroups that are in NY in your message) makes recommendation to the CWAC directly, and it's done at the CWAC meetings. So unless someone attends the CWAC meeting, you likely aren't privvy to that information. So that appears to be the one major difference, even though the process in general appears similar.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

just ducky said:


> I'm sure LoBrass or someone will chime in, but basically here in Michigan the DNR's internal "waterfowl workgroup" (which appears to be similar to the workgroups that are in NY in your message) makes recommendation to the CWAC directly, and it's done at the CWAC meetings. So unless someone attends the CWAC meeting, you likely aren't privvy to that information. So that appears to be the one major difference, even though the process in general appears similar.



Major difference between the two is that the CWAC meets at once, and from what I gather often dates are set based off the other zones... If you look at the link, it appears each "task force" meets individually based on the region. 

I found it interesting they basically justified the dates for each zone... and had sound reasoning for the dates based off hunter feedback and harvest numbers...


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## nastynate2728 (Mar 30, 2010)

Here is a question that has been looming me for sometime now. How does one person attend or at least voice his/her opinion on this topic. Would I be able to stand in a CWAC meeting and voice an opinion or can I contact a DNR Represenitive on this matter. I am extremely *FOR* new season dates in Michigan. I live in the South zone and frequent the Middle Zone a few times a year. These dates in Western New York are dates I would love to have here in the South Zone and I speak for many other waterfowlers not just myself that are frustrated with all of this.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Oh LoBrass? going to let you or another CWAC member answer this one.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Major difference between the two is that the CWAC meets at once, and from what I gather often dates are set based off the other zones... If you look at the link, it appears each "task force" meets individually based on the region.
> 
> I found it interesting they basically justified the dates for each zone... and had sound reasoning for the dates based off hunter feedback and harvest numbers...


So if I read the NY example correctly, they have "task force" groups set up by region, which operate like our CWAC does? So if I go with that idea, that would mean several "mini CWAC's" in Michigan, all coming up with their own ideas, then bringing them back to the DNR? Not sure that's any better than what we have now. In fact if that's the case, I'd suggest we've cut one additional (perhaps cumbersome) step out of the process?


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

nastynate2728 said:


> I am extremely *FOR* new season dates in Michigan. I live in the South zone and frequent the Middle Zone a few times a year. These dates in Western New York are dates I would love to have here in the South Zone and I speak for many other waterfowlers not just myself that are frustrated with all of this.


Curious, out of the 35K waterfowlers in this state, how many have you actually talked to and know you are representing their thoughts? Are you a CWAC rep? 

I live in southern MI and have been quite happy with the seasons that we have been given.


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## nastynate2728 (Mar 30, 2010)

wavie said:


> Curious, out of the 35K waterfowlers in this state, how many have you actually talked to and know you are representing their thoughts? Are you a CWAC rep?
> 
> I live in southern MI and have been quite happy with the seasons that we have been given.


I did not say all waterfowlers or did I? Yup I did, I talked to all 35k minus one which would be you so make it rougly 34,999. C'mon Jack.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

just ducky said:


> So if I read the NY example correctly, they have "task force" groups set up by region, which operate like our CWAC does? So if I go with that idea, that would mean several "mini CWAC's" in Michigan, all coming up with their own ideas, then bringing them back to the DNR? Not sure that's any better than what we have now. In fact if that's the case, I'd suggest we've cut one additional (perhaps cumbersome) step out of the process?



From what I have learned, each "zone" or region in this case, has their own reps (same as CWAC) however, each group in their given zones set the date for their zone... No worrying about the Long Island zone here in the Western side of NY, which similar to Michigan, has great differences in migration patterns.

From what I am told, their recommendations are what set the season dates, not the DEC, the groups just work within the framework given...

And I take it just the opposite CWAC adds a cumbersome step, getting all the groups together and making recommendations for whats good as a collective state as a whole, and not necessarily what is best for each ZONE. 

Personally, what I am gathering out here, and a few other states friends have moved to, is that regions or zones dates are set by people in that zone individually, and then either made official dates, or made as recommendations to their states resource committees.

So theoretically we could have the UP start in mid september, middle zone early/mid october and then southern zone late october... instead of back to back to back weekends as seems to be popular among the DNR.


One other tidbit i noticed was they had a reasoning in one region based on the late arrivals to winter as of late, pushed back the season in a region...


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## honk/quack (Dec 18, 2009)

Just a little to early for me to think about waterfowling now. It'll get me all cranked up but with no action, then the big let-down. :lol:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> ...And I take it just the opposite CWAC adds a cumbersome step, getting all the groups together and making recommendations for whats good as a collective state as a whole, and not necessarily what is best for each ZONE...
> 
> ...Personally, what I am gathering out here, and a few other states friends have moved to, is that regions or zones dates are set by people in that zone individually, and then either made official dates, or made as recommendations to their states resource committees...


Again, I wish one of the CWAC reps would chime in on these questions, but basically the CWAC includes reps from all parts of our state, and they set dates by zone, not by the state as a whole. The UP reps have a big say in the UP dates, but other CWAC reps have a say also especially if they either hunt that zone, or have consituents who do. Some reps have no real interest in the UP, just as some UP reps have no real interest in the SLP. But they all have a say. So again, I see it as more efficient than your example, not less. 

In your NY example, it almost sounds like someone who is not a member of that particular "task force" does not have much say in that zone's dates. So what about a person from another area of the state who hunts that particular zone...do they not count? You see what I'm saying? That task force somehow needs to get the input from ALL HUNTERS for that zone, and hopefully before it's all said and done. I believe our CWAC process accomplishes that pretty well. 



Ferris_StateHunter said:


> ...So theoretically we could have the UP start in mid september, middle zone early/mid october and then southern zone late october... instead of back to back to back weekends as seems to be popular among the DNR....


It doesn't always fall into place that the UP is set for one weekend, then the other two follow right after. It's just the way it's worked out in recent times. But it doesn't have to be that way. 

I've said it before, but I'd encourage everyone to attend the CWAC meetings just to observe the process. That would help you all understand how all of these things happen.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

just ducky said:


> Again, I wish one of the CWAC reps would chime in on these questions, but basically the CWAC includes reps from all parts of our state, and they set dates by zone, not by the state as a whole. The UP reps have a big say in the UP dates, but other CWAC reps have a say also especially if they either hunt that zone, or have consituents who do. Some reps have no real interest in the UP, just as some UP reps have no real interest in the SLP. But they all have a say. So again, I see it as more efficient than your example, not less.
> 
> In your NY example, it almost sounds like someone who is not a member of that particular "task force" does not have much say in that zone's dates. So what about a person from another area of the state who hunts that particular zone...do they not count? You see what I'm saying? That task force somehow needs to get the input from ALL HUNTERS for that zone, and hopefully before it's all said and done. I believe our CWAC process accomplishes that pretty well.
> 
> ...


I went to a few CWAC meetings, and understand how it went. Went to when they voted on seasons two years ago... It is a process thats for sure.

However, My original post was never about who sets the dates or what... but clear written out conclusions and reasoning ( and posted on the DEC's website) as to why the dates were chosen...

One thing I found interesting was in the western region the split dates 44 and 16... and their reasoning for it... The birds on my lake (a fingerlake) began showing up in full force around mid december... and a huge reason for the late long split..

Which because of "participation" the MDNR will not consider because they feel most duck hunters will not hunt late in the year due to cold.. and possibility of freezing which I find odd considering NY and MI climates are very similar.. NY doesnt get much right... but IMO at least they maximize hunting opportunity when the birds are around.... not just provide opportunity for saying we gave them opportunity..


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> ...However, My original post was never about who sets the dates or what... but clear written out conclusions and reasoning ( and posted on the DEC's website) as to why the dates were chosen...


Yeah I know...we got side-tracked. I think most of us wish the process were more open, and readily available information at a persons fingertips. Heck it's awfully hard to find any CWAC information at all on the DNR's site, and last I looked, what is there is terribly outdated.

So maybe that's something the CWAC should push for (you listening John?)...more readily available information relative to CWAC on the DNR's website 

Oh and I didn't mean to say "you" should attend CWAC meetings...sounds like you have. I just meant that everyone who is interested in how the dates and regulations are set, and what discussion goes into it, should attend. Boring and long? Yeah! But there is a lot of good information shared.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

A lot of states do it right. But one thing is guarenteed in MI, your oppurtunity is when they say your oppurtunity is. It is not going to change anytime soon. That I think we can all agree on. With or without CWAC, you just can't just fix something the politics say are not broken. It is truly a two sided problem. One thing is said, another is done. 

I really like how NY provides some details as to why they chose the dates. I am betting though, some are opposed to the dates as well, hence why they feel compelled to make it public knowledge. 

Once can write a letter in MI to the DNR asking for the reasons the dates were chosen, and what thoughts were put into it. You will get a nice form letter back with all kinds of elect me messages on it.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> From what I have learned, each "zone" or region in this case, has their own reps (same as CWAC) however, each group in their given zones set the date for their zone... No worrying about the Long Island zone here in the Western side of NY, which similar to Michigan, has great differences in migration patterns.
> 
> From what I am told, their recommendations are what set the season dates, not the DEC, the groups just work within the framework given...
> 
> ...


your kinda wrong. sorry. cwac does exactly what you say they do over there. group reps get together and hash out their respective group (zones) dates. only thing they do collectively is vote them in.

sorry i fail to see new yorks cwac or how they do it there relevant to michigans zones and flyways.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> your kinda wrong. sorry. cwac does exactly what you say they do over there. group reps get together and hash out their respective group (zones) dates. only thing they do collectively is vote them in.
> 
> sorry i fail to see new yorks cwac or how they do it there relevant to michigans zones and flyways.


How does a respective survey play a role in this? Can't remember the last time I received any information in the mail asking for a "written" explanation regarding why I would want the seasons dates the way I do. So essentially, the respective CWAC speaks based upon a sample survey?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

i re-read this again because i was stumped by your angle. what your describing happening in new york is exactly how it happens here. its dang near identical. are you up on how cwac works here?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> How does a respective survey play a role in this? Can't remember the last time I received any information in the mail asking for a "written" explanation regarding why I would want the seasons dates the way I do. So essentially, the respective CWAC speaks based upon a sample survey?


Not sure I've ever seen a DNR survey composed entirely of "written" responses. But the DNR does do periodic surveys...I've read the reports, and I think they're available on their website someplace. Here's a link to one I found that's kind of dated, but they do these periodically. 

http://ww2.dnr.state.mi.us/publicat...abitat/Reports/WLD-library/3400-3499/3443.pdf

Typically they're multiple choice/yes or no responses so they can be computer scored, but most have a place at the end for additional comments. The DNR's waterfowl workgroups use the survey data to formulate recommendations to CWAC, and ultimately to the NRC. CWAC members do not do formal surveys (at least I've never heard of one). They take input verbally, written, emailed, etc., and then they use that input to form their positions. CWAC members themselves on this site can respond better than I can if they so choose.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> your kinda wrong. sorry. cwac does exactly what you say they do over there. group reps get together and hash out their respective group (zones) dates.* only thing they do collectively is vote them in.*
> 
> sorry i fail to see new yorks cwac or how they do it there relevant to michigans zones and flyways.



In my opinion, this is a huge difference.. because this opens the door that the seasons in one zone are affected because of the other two zones..

also, highlighting the differences were never the point of this whole thing... what i wanted to highlight was the reasoning and the explanation as to why the dates were chosen... right there, black and white, very easy to find


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## lang49 (Aug 1, 2005)

5 Zones with splits- Where do I sign up?


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## stackemup (Oct 31, 2011)

KLR said:


> Finally. A thread where we can discuss season dates.
> 
> #MSbitchaboutwaterfowlseasondates.com


:lol: Just thankful for the opportunity to hunt. Can it get better???Sure Can it be worse? You bet. Enjoy your time hunting, some people never get the chance


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Would it be fair to say if the majority of those who wanted an earlier opener were folks who only hunted opening weekend, that a huge group of waterfowlers are being ignored...
> 
> Not only that, but often that group of waterfowlers are the ones who encourage more people to try it, and often help the most with duck hunter recruiting?
> 
> ...


Not fair to say that at all. I duck hunt from opening day, all the way to the last day of the split. Probably more days out than most. I think it would be fair to say a small group of waterfowlers are being ignored with an early opener.

Your "hardcore", "die hard" or whatever it is they call themselves probably recruit less than the casual hunter. They are worried about only one thing, limits. Its not easy to be "die hard", when you have to take a kid out. I'm fortunate enough to hunt almost every day of the season. Its not a big deal for me to set days aside to take kids or newbies out. I have taken kids out in all weather. Birds or not, most kids do not enjoy it when they are freezing.(except for my 11 year old, he is as "die hard" as anyone can be.) Alot of "die hards" will take kids out for the youth hunt and then they are done. Where were they for the kids during early goose and regular duck season. Out of the 6 youths we took out last season for the youth hunt, 5 of them had already hunted the early goose season.

I want an early opener, and I hunt Michigan from day 1 until the end. That tells me that the correlation is people that want earlier dates hunt more. I have read on here quite a bit that people that want later dates don't even hunt the full season, just the end.


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

SBE II said:


> Huge difference in distance from me to you bud.....Get out of a major metropolitan area, theres places to hunt...
> 
> Regarding the data, wasn't it indicated large numbers where at the Todd farm just recently during the split? Kzoo river is near by. Some ponds were iced over but even if the lakes are froze we still see more birds..


I only duck hunt about 8 times a year where I live. My hunting is usually northern part of zone 3.

Large numbers were at the Todd Farm. How many hunters will that accomodate daily? I have hunted by the Kzoo river a couple times. Both times the person I hunted with had a LEASE. How easy is it to get permission to hunt around there if someone like myself had to go there when everything else in the state is froze out? Not many Michigan Waterfowlers are going to buy a lease just because a few people from SW Michigan want a later opener. Alot of people just trespass and hunt on the rivers where they are not allowed or do not have permission to be.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

pinman said:


> This attitude is not going to help your case, the mdnr does not operate with the goal of making sbe's hunts the most productive. There goal is to increase hunter participation and satisfaction based on a majority of the hunters not an individual basis. To get the change you are looking for you need to convince them one of the above is happening for a majority.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Hence the reason why it's a bust and we need another zone. I agree with Belly if you want reality to show it's going to have to go around CWAC. I could careless to satisfy the majority because the majority falls off after September/October..deer hunters


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> we have multiple GMU's developed under the same process (mvp/sjb)...we aren't different. lol. but if that helps sell the point i guess.
> 
> we have 3 zones and 4 GMU's all with different dates for hunting. just trying to keep it apples to apples.


The GMUs in MI of those, not looking at a map, which are south of 94? Back to oranges


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## pinman (Feb 2, 2012)

SBE II said:


> Hence the reason why it's a bust and we need another zone. I agree with Belly if you want reality to show it's going to have to go around CWAC. I could careless to satisfy the majority because the majority falls off after September/October..deer hunters


So you want to cut out the majority by going around the cwac to the dnr and have season open later? And you think they would find interest in this when their said goal is hunter participation? I must be missing something.

If it's a fourth zone you need to work on the feds. Not sure you'll find many people to sign up to a fourth zone and loose the split for fear of a 45 or 30 day season.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

SBE II said:


> Hence the reason why it's a bust and we need another zone. I agree with Belly if you want reality to show it's going to have to go around CWAC. I could careless to satisfy the majority because the majority falls off after September/October..deer hunters


your losing me. agree with pin above. your wanting something, but your angle on is so skewed, you will accomplish nothing beside venting on a message board. If thats your goal, you've succeeded. nailed it. problem is, bellyache beat you to it and you will never get his crown.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

and to be honest SBE, i'm not sure what your so worried about. the season is 60 days, you got plenty of out of state hunting, just schedule it after 60 is up and your good to go.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> So like me, you b*tch about it here and not to the DNR? Sound like someone you know? :lol:


When have I bitched for later dates? The majority of my duck hunting in Michigan is done from the last week of October, through Thanksgiving. So I've generally been happy with our dates, no matter when the opener OR the split is. I've said many times that in all of the years we've had the late splits, I've hunted them only a couple times. Number one, I haven't had access to good locations holding ducks that late (geese don't matter to me if you haven't gleaned that :lol, and number two, by the time that late split hits, I've had my fill of duck hunting my gear is typically stowed in the barn, and I'm looking at ice fishing season. So no, I don't give a rip about later opening dates.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Bellyup said:


> ...I honestly believe perhaps the only way it can happen is to go directly to the NRC....


There's a 99.99999999 % chance going directly to the NRC will never work. They are by nature political (they're appointed by the Governor for christ sake!). If you don't have lots of support before you get to them, you have a snowball's chance.



Bellyup said:


> ...I gave it a go the right way (through CWAC) and even supported the party that did go to the NRC...


With all due respect, I don't think you (or whoever) did "give it a go the right way". What I believe happened is the issue was taken to the CWAC, and there was not enough support, so it was carried on to the NRC. What I mean by "playing their game" is if there isn't support, you find out why, and you compromise in order to come up with something that works for everyone.

Most don't realize, our spinning wing proposal was shot down 3 times by the DNR, and it took many negotiations to come up with a proposal that THEY could go along with. Then we went to CWAC, and they shot it down. So once again, we negotiated a compromise, and it eventually went to the NRC. The NRC was not unanimously in favor either, so I personally spoke with those opposed, got the reasons why they opposed it, and was able to once again get a compromise. Most also don't know that from start to finish, our proposal took over 8 months to accomplish. A couple of us SFCHA officers spent tons of time and money (out of our own pocket) to get where we got. I don't say that to look for sympathy...I say it to reinforce what I previously said about it not being easy or quick. Persistence can pay off.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

pinman said:


> This attitude is not going to help your case, the mdnr does not operate with the goal of making sbe's hunts the most productive. There goal is to increase hunter participation and satisfaction based on a majority of the hunters not an individual basis. To get the change you are looking for you need to convince them one of the above is happening for a majority.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


DING...DING...DING! You win pinman! You understand how the game is played, by THEIR rules, not ours. Dig in your heels and stick to your opinions...that's fine...but it won't gain you the support you need to make change happen.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

just ducky said:


> When have I bitched for later dates? The majority of my duck hunting in Michigan is done from the last week of October, through Thanksgiving. So I've generally been happy with our dates, no matter when the opener OR the split is. I've said many times that in all of the years we've had the late splits, I've hunted them only a couple times. Number one, I haven't had access to good locations holding ducks that late (geese don't matter to me if you haven't gleaned that :lol, and number two, by the time that late split hits, I've had my fill of duck hunting my gear is typically stowed in the barn, and I'm looking at ice fishing season. So no, I don't give a rip about later opening dates.


So you would be okay with a 3rd saturday of october opener then? Run it through a week in december and put the split whenever after that... It sounds like that would fit what you would like to see out of MI's season.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> So you would be okay with a 3rd saturday of october opener then? Run it through a week in december and put the split whenever after that... It sounds like that would fit what you would like to see out of MI's season.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


most of us at sfcha would be ok with those dates. that doesn't mean we would pull for it either.

we've had those dates many times. usually froze out a week of season at least in taht situation so its a hard sell to the membership.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> So you would be okay with a 3rd saturday of october opener then? Run it through a week in december and put the split whenever after that... It sounds like that would fit what you would like to see out of MI's season.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure that would be okay. But for example with this years dates we could hunt until Nov 30th in zone 3. I'm in North Dakota for the first week or so of our zone 3 opener every year, so I don't hunt early anyway. But I know lots of people who do. So my needs were met just fine on both ends with this years dates. But that's just me...


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> DING...DING...DING! You win pinman! You understand how the game is played, by THEIR rules, not ours. Dig in your heels and stick to your opinions...that's fine...but it won't gain you the support you need to make change happen.


I also read the statement as the best way to create revenue...


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Sure that would be okay. But for example with this years dates we could hunt until Nov 30th in zone 3. I'm in North Dakota for the first week or so of our zone 3 opener every year, so I don't hunt early anyway. But I know lots of people who do. So my needs were met just fine on both ends with this years dates. But that's just me...


Similar to you, I don't hunt in October either...


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## ScavengerMan (Sep 6, 2006)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> So you would be okay with a 3rd saturday of october opener then? Run it through a week in december and put the split whenever after that... It sounds like that would fit what you would like to see out of MI's season.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That would be excellent FSH. Too bad there isn't enough common sense among the decision makers to understand why.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> So you would be okay with a 3rd saturday of october opener then? Run it through a week in december and put the split whenever after that... It sounds like that would fit what you would like to see out of MI's season.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Keep the longer split as well. Week long, but that would require more days if Z3 season was constructed as above.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

The same two are the strongest challengers to any change, even though they claim to be in favor of it, or it would not matter to them at all. 

Zone 3 is a diverse zone, with very different migration paths, and weather patterns, we all agree with this. (remember, there is only about 10 or 20 people involved on this website, hardly a true representation from either side of the fence.) 

It is very obvious that if you want change, you need to stay off this website and do it another way. Do not present your ideas to anyone on this website, don't ask for opinions, and be prepared to present to the CWAC and the DNR and the NRC. 

Any other points gleaned so far ? (oh, the Kid still hates, sorry forgot that one)


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Bellyup said:


> The same two are the strongest challengers to any change, even though they claim to be in favor of it, or it would not matter to them at all.
> 
> Zone 3 is a diverse zone, with very different migration paths, and weather patterns, we all agree with this. (remember, there is only about 10 or 20 people involved on this website, hardly a true representation from either side of the fence.)
> 
> ...


i fixed your quote for you.

only thing i have challenged is your intellect and comprehension.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Bellyup said:


> The same two are the strongest challengers to any change, even though they claim to be in favor of it, or it would not matter to them at all.


Wow you continue to miss my point. I'm not "challenging" anything. If you go back and read my posts (admittedly they are long-winded :lol, I'm trying to point out ways in which someone would have a better chance of getting ANY change approved in the current process that THEY created. 



Bellyup said:


> ..remember, there is only about 10 or 20 people involved on this website, hardly a true representation from either side of the fence... It is very obvious that if you want change, you need to stay off this website and do it another way. Do not present your ideas to anyone on this website, don't ask for opinions, and be prepared to present to the CWAC and the DNR and the NRC.


Again you missed my points. They all count  If one person here on this or another website can't understand or agree with your proposal, they can sure make things tougher for you. So you can't ignore what goes on here...but as you said, it's a small number of regulars. Remember, the DNR and the NRC look for support and non-support when considering any change.

Yes, the entire process from the get go is "political" whether you're dealing with the "politics" on boards like this, or with the NRC. I didn't make the rules....


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Bellyup said:


> Zone 3 is a diverse zone, with very different migration paths, and weather patterns, we all agree with this. (remember, there is only about 10 or 20 people involved on this website, hardly a true representation from either side of the fence.)


Agree, 

Snow for example, much more accumulation in the kalamazoo and lakeshore regions then lower MI. Just like the west side typically has more accumulation than east side...


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

just ducky said:


> Wow you continue to miss my point. I'm not "challenging" anything. If you go back and read my posts (admittedly they are long-winded :lol, I'm trying to point out ways in which someone would have a better chance of getting ANY change approved in the current process that THEY created.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did not miss your point what so ever. By definition challenge can mean a number of things. Your challenges are productive, most of the time. You point out the upward hill one must climb. That is good for all to see how difficult the challenge is, and why so many have failed.


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

Bellyup said:


> It is very obvious that if you want change, you need to stay off this website and do it another way. Do not present your ideas to anyone on this website, don't ask for opinions, and be prepared to present to the CWAC and the DNR and the NRC.
> 
> Any other points gleaned so far ? (oh, the Kid still hates, sorry forgot that one)


It don't matter whether it is this website, a game area, or even the local diner. If you present ideas you will run into people with different opinions than your own. I think the reason that you are having a hard time getting later dates is that the majority do not want later dates in zone 3.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Water_Hazard said:


> It don't matter whether it is this website, a game area, or even the local diner. If you present ideas you will run into people with different opinions than your own. I think the reason that you are having a hard time getting later dates is that the majority do not want later dates in zone 3.


You might be right Matt. But to counter that, the majority reside on the east side, and in the bay area. The representation the SW counties get with the DNR is significantly less than those other areas. That being said, is that fair to be under represented as we are such a small group ? You pointed out it is unfair to the small gorups that want an early as possible season start. This might be along the same lines ? 

To be perfectly honest, I think participation would be at an all time high if the dates ran at the very least two weeks into December. Hunters don't have a lot of other seasons conflicting, and once they realize the number of birds around they would be all over it. One could meet satisfaction with participation. I am betting you would hunt later into December if that was season dates anyway, am I right ? A lot of people post they simply want to hunt when the dates are, so one can assume they would hunt later in Decemeber if those were the dates given to us.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

SBE II said:


> Agree,
> 
> Snow for example, much more accumulation in the kalamazoo and lakeshore regions then lower MI. Just like the west side typically has more accumulation than east side...


no one is gonna disagree with this statement, but your pointing out one or a couple of points that within a hundred different things to consider. again, until the feds give you some better framework to work with (more than 3 zones), the bay or northern part of zone 3 separate from the southern parts of zone 3, your merely preaching to the choir. we all know the stuff your posting, its not rocket science, we get it.

EVERYONE GETS IT. south of 94 wants later seasons. I have plenty of friends south of 94 and they all want later starts too. its nothing new. we're not breaking new ground here in this discussion (as pointed out many times). matter fact, do a thread search and type in "starting dates" and you can read your daylights out.


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

Bellyup said:


> You might be right Matt. But to counter that, the majority reside on the east side, and in the bay area. The representation the SW counties get with the DNR is significantly less than those other areas. That being said, is that fair to be under represented as we are such a small group ? You pointed out it is unfair to the small gorups that want an early as possible season start. This might be along the same lines ?
> 
> To be perfectly honest, I think participation would be at an all time high if the dates ran at the very least two weeks into December. Hunters don't have a lot of other seasons conflicting, and once they realize the number of birds around they would be all over it. One could meet satisfaction with participation. I am betting you would hunt later into December if that was season dates anyway, am I right ? A lot of people post they simply want to hunt when the dates are, so one can assume they would hunt later in Decemeber if those were the dates given to us.


I don't think it would be at an all time high. I hunted every day of the late split. I only took my son out once because I didn't think it was "kid friendly" weather. I know others that hunt hard throughout the season that didn't even hunt the split. I also know a few that hunted the first day of the split and that was it. Participation drops the later the season goes. When you run the season later into freeze up, access and spots are less available. I would be hunting today if season was open. Dates appeal to the casual waterfowler because they are the majority. The casual waterfowler wants an early opener. If you polled all the licensed waterfowl hunters in your area, you may find that the majority wants an early opener there too. The dates are fine, and will be even better for you if for some reason we start to have normal fall/winter weather.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> no one is gonna disagree with this statement, but your pointing out one or a couple of points that within a hundred different things to consider. again, until the feds give you some better framework to work with (more than 3 zones), the bay or northern part of zone 3 separate from the southern parts of zone 3, your merely preaching to the choir. we all know the stuff your posting, its not rocket science, we get it.
> 
> EVERYONE GETS IT. south of 94 wants later seasons. I have plenty of friends south of 94 and they all want later starts too. its nothing new. we're not breaking new ground here in this discussion (as pointed out many times). matter fact, do a thread search and type in "starting dates" and you can read your daylights out.


So if you understand it sir and it's not rocket science, why hasn't it been done? I know whats been said this thread happens every year, but assist me in helping how good CWAC is if we have a rep out there saying, "Didn't hunt." While some representatives may incorporate what they hear from those that actually reach out to them, but even the MDNR doesn't have a publication indicating territories, just a list of names. What do you propose needs to be done or do we just leave it because you fear it may screw up anything in the middle of the state that doesn't correlate to us southerners? 

So now are we back to what BellyUp indicated, driving around CWAC? I really dont have an answer just an opinion.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Water_Hazard said:


> I don't think it would be at an all time high. I hunted every day of the late split. I only took my son out once because I didn't think it was "kid friendly" weather. I know others that hunt hard throughout the season that didn't even hunt the split. I also know a few that hunted the first day of the split and that was it. Participation drops the later the season goes. When you run the season later into freeze up, access and spots are less available. I would be hunting today if season was open. Dates appeal to the casual waterfowler because they are the majority. The casual waterfowler wants an early opener. If you polled all the licensed waterfowl hunters in your area, you may find that the majority wants an early opener there too. The dates are fine, and will be even better for you if for some reason we start to have normal fall/winter weather.


Your post indicated what JD has given us in statistical data. Statistically we show everything correlates to Deer season, from there, snow on the ground I bet a lot of those guys are Coyote hunting. Holidays come up people get busy, I can almost guarantee early in any state always gets participation. But the people that want later get griped at because we're concerned with "quality" of the hunt.

Froze out in the first week of December is never the case around me. If people ICE fish on large lakes its not happening until Jan-Feb. If my Harley wasn't in storage I would be out on Saturday. The past two years definitely unseasonable. Guys in LA are griping theres nothing going on there right now..


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

SBE II said:


> So if you understand it sir and it's not rocket science, why hasn't it been done? I know whats been said this thread happens every year, but assist me in helping how good CWAC is if we have a rep out there saying, "Didn't hunt." While some representatives may incorporate what they hear from those that actually reach out to them, but even the MDNR doesn't have a publication indicating territories, just a list of names. What do you propose needs to be done or do we just leave it because you fear it may screw up anything in the middle of the state that doesn't correlate to us southerners?
> 
> So now are we back to what BellyUp indicated, driving around CWAC? I really dont have an answer just an opinion.


lol are you serious? your getting just as bad as bellyup. I'm telling you good luck. if i was you, i would start with the FEDS as your not going anywhere til you get a better framework. hows that for simplifying it for you?


you guys think it should change to suit you (south of 94 for example). Although i might want a later season personally, i fully understand why its not given, do you?


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Water_Hazard said:


> I think the reason that you are having a hard time getting later dates is that the majority do not want later dates in zone 3.




And to think that thousands of pages on season dates can really be broken down into one sentence.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Bellyup said:


> ...I think participation would be at an all time high if the dates ran at the very least two weeks into December. Hunters don't have a lot of other seasons conflicting, and once they realize the number of birds around they would be all over it. One could meet satisfaction with participation...


I disagree. Someone said it pages ago. The "hard core" hunters will likely hunt the later you go. But those hunters do not make up the majority, and like it or not, the majority rules (boy, haven't we talked about that enough lately ). My gut tells me if you were possibly able to survey each and every waterfowler, I'm betting the distribution of who WANTS to hunt when would be pretty much like that graph I pointed to in the DNR's 10 year old report...peaking in late October. Face it guys, most hunters don't like the cold and snow. Especially most...I said most...youngsters.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Water_Hazard said:


> I don't think it would be at an all time high. I hunted every day of the late split. I only took my son out once because I didn't think it was "kid friendly" weather. I know others that hunt hard throughout the season that didn't even hunt the split. I also know a few that hunted the first day of the split and that was it. Participation drops the later the season goes. When you run the season later into freeze up, access and spots are less available. I would be hunting today if season was open. Dates appeal to the casual waterfowler because they are the majority. The casual waterfowler wants an early opener. If you polled all the licensed waterfowl hunters in your area, you may find that the majority wants an early opener there too. The dates are fine, and will be even better for you if for some reason we start to have normal fall/winter weather.


 I guess I should've read your post Matt before I posted pretty much the same thing  :lol:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> ...I bet a lot of those guys are Coyote hunting...


Sorry, no disrespect intended, but did I read this right? Coyote hunting? I know it's done, but it's kind of like crow hunting...how many people do you know that do it...I mean purposely? I know two who have invested in the gear, the flat shooting guns, the calls, etc., etc. But I'm betting it's less than 1% of the hunters I know. JMO, but I don't think coyote hunting has any affect.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> And to think that thousands of pages on season dates can really be broken down into one sentence.


:lol::lol::lol: You're so right Gene. Even though I'm enjoying this on a slow day for me, it reminds me of when my late 80's dad and his buddies would go to the local McDonalds everymorning for their "coffee clutch" discussions, where they solved all of the worlds problems. His favorite saying was "opinions are like A-holes...everybody has one, and they all stink!"


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> lol are you serious? your getting just as bad as bellyup. I'm telling you good luck. if i was you, i would start with the FEDS as your not going anywhere til you get a better framework. hows that for simplifying it for you?
> 
> 
> you guys think it should change to suit you (south of 94 for example). Although i might want a later season personally, i fully understand why its not given, do you?


I will humor you one more time, since you actually bit on the last poke I gave you.... it was classic kid. 

We get it, you get it, we all get it. We all understand it as you point it out often. What I don't understand is why the hell you don't want to do something about it ? You are fine with sitting there bellyaching on me, and telling the WWW the reasons why it won't happen, and how much you understand it, and how much we don't get it, and why it won't change, but yet you agree and want later season dates as well. You also point out you have several friends south of I94 that want later dates. I guess it is to much for you to take up the fight on the other side of the fence and actually attempt to get what you want. You are exactly what politicians do. Agree with everyone and point out how we need change.


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## birdshooter (Jan 7, 2006)

only thing these threads are good for is post counts where else can a guy get 30 post on the same thread


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

birdshooter said:


> only thing these threads are good for is post counts where else can a guy get 30 post on the same thread


:shhh: now you've told EVERYONE my secret :lol: Soon ol' Smoke is gonna be on my azzzzz 'bout my post count again :evilsmile


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Bellyup said:


> I will humor you one more time, since you actually bit on the last poke I gave you.... it was classic kid.
> 
> We get it, you get it, we all get it. We all understand it as you point it out often. What I don't understand is why the hell you don't want to do something about it ? You are fine with sitting there bellyaching on me, and telling the WWW the reasons why it won't happen, and how much you understand it, and how much we don't get it, and why it won't change, but yet you agree and want later season dates as well. You also point out you have several friends south of I94 that want later dates. I guess it is to much for you to take up the fight on the other side of the fence and actually attempt to get what you want. You are exactly what politicians do. Agree with everyone and point out how we need change.


if i felt strong enough about it i would do something about it. I feel more strongly about pointing out the complainers than i do about making seasons later.

and although i don't like hunting in september, i do most of my hunting in oct/nov. I can see both sides to the argument, and i tend to favor a later start but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I totally see Waterhazards points and agree with him too. Matt hunts everyday and covers all 3 zones, i would tend to listen to his opinions over yours since you don't get 2 blocks from your house before you turn around and complain about no ducks.

if opening november 1st would keep you from posting all season about no ducks your area, i may be willing to compromise on the season start date. We can call it the *Bellyache Compromise (Z3's ratification to success).*


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## birdshooter (Jan 7, 2006)

just ducky said:


> :shhh: now you've told EVERYONE my secret :lol: Soon ol' Smoke is gonna be on my azzzzz 'bout my post count again :evilsmile


only 9 more of these threads with 30 or more post and you will hit 10000 hell of a milestone :lol:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Bellyup said:


> I will humor you one more time, since you actually bit on the last poke I gave you.... it was classic kid.
> 
> We get it, you get it, we all get it. We all understand it as you point it out often. What I don't understand is why the hell you don't want to do something about it ? You are fine with sitting there bellyaching on me, and telling the WWW the reasons why it won't happen, and how much you understand it, and how much we don't get it, and why it won't change, but yet you agree and want later season dates as well. You also point out you have several friends south of I94 that want later dates. I guess it is to much for you to take up the fight on the other side of the fence and actually attempt to get what you want. You are exactly what politicians do. Agree with everyone and point out how we need change.


With me anyway it's the difference between my preference, and being willing to go die on a sword for it. I never hunt the first week or 10 days here because I'm always in Nodak. So would it help me if the season started say the third week of October and ran well into December? It might only because I currently don't hunt that early part of the season. But as I said before, I'm normally done waterfowling by the Thanksgiving weekend anyway. So would I prefer it? maybe? is it something I'd die over? nope. Does that explain my position better anyway?


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

just ducky said:


> I disagree. Someone said it pages ago. The "hard core" hunters will likely hunt the later you go. But those hunters do not make up the majority, and like it or not, the majority rules (boy, haven't we talked about that enough lately ). My gut tells me if you were possibly able to survey each and every waterfowler, I'm betting the distribution of who WANTS to hunt when would be pretty much like that graph I pointed to in the DNR's 10 year old report...peaking in late October. Face it guys, most hunters don't like the cold and snow. Especially most...I said most...youngsters.


My argument to that is this: The weather pattens have certainly shifted. We don't get harsh winter conditions that most would consider "hard core" until maybe Mid December, and usually later December. We usually don't lose the majority of birds, divers and puddlers, until sometime in January. We have freezes and thaws (like it is doing now....) and bigger water opens back up. At the very least the water on top of the ice holds a large number of roosting birds. 

So how is two weeks into December and possibly three if at all possible, considered hard core ? I consider it normal conditions. Some years it may get cold and snowy, but on average it will not. My area certainly does not see a slow down in hunter numbers come December. If anything, it increases. That is most likely becasue the other zones are froze out, and possibly the bay and east side have some hard water.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Sorry, no disrespect intended, but did I read this right? Coyote hunting? I know it's done, but it's kind of like crow hunting...how many people do you know that do it...I mean purposely? I know two who have invested in the gear, the flat shooting guns, the calls, etc., etc. But I'm betting it's less than 1% of the hunters I know. JMO, but I don't think coyote hunting has any affect.


A TON of people around us...When snow hits...Watch for the barage of trucks, dogs running property to property...Big time around us...A lot of my buddies take to the woods with their electronic callers and devices..Open you're eyes bud


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> With me anyway it's the difference between my preference, and being willing to go die on a sword for it. I never hunt the first week or 10 days here because I'm always in Nodak. So would it help me if the season started say the third week of October and ran well into December? It might only because I currently don't hunt that early part of the season. But as I said before, I'm normally done waterfowling by the Thanksgiving weekend anyway. So would I prefer it? maybe? is it something I'd die over? nope. Does that explain my position better anyway?


Not really...Because if you've never hunted in December then you must not know how good it actually gets...Like everyone is telling me to do is travel within the state but yet these posts occur...So having a handful of representatives located throughout the states concurs it does no good..


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

birdshooter said:


> only 9 more of these threads with 30 or more post and you will hit 10000 hell of a milestone :lol:


 :lol: They do add up quickly. 

Just call me


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

SBE II said:


> A TON of people around us...When snow hits...Watch for the barage of trucks, dogs running property to property...Big time around us...A lot of my buddies take to the woods with their electronic callers and devices..Open you're eyes bud


yeah JD, TONS, didntyaknow?


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

I've now read through every post. What struck me in the initial post is this:
*Task force members have observed that duck hunting success rapidly declines after the first few days whenever the season begins in early to mid October because the hunting pressure causes local birds to leave the area. Duck harvest does not begin to pick up again until larger numbers of migrant ducks begin to arrive in the zone as the winter weather pushes birds south out of Canada.*

Is this not ALSO the case here? Every year we talk about the post opening week lull. And we obviously have guys who want to hunt later into December. The solution? In my opinion lets try a front loaded split. We, to my knowledge, have NEVER experimented with a front split, though we've had many "late weekend" splits around the New Year holiday. This year we've now tried a 4-day late split, and last year we had an "early" late split just one week after regular season ended. IF we had a 9-day opening split, the early season-tennis shoe-and-teal hunters would be satisfied, and then a re-opener around the week before Halloween for the balance of the season would give the December guys more opportunity. Seems like a compromise that might work. Early warm hunting, "most" of the season in October and November, and another week to 10-days into December. 

Has something like this even been considered by the CWAC/DNR/NRC, and if so, what were the reasons given for not "trying it" for one season and getting feedback?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> A TON of people around us...When snow hits...Watch for the barage of trucks, dogs running property to property...Big time around us...A lot of my buddies take to the woods with their electronic callers and devices..Open you're eyes bud


Dude...I live in the country on a large piece of property. I see what's going on. My eyes are OPEN!

You say "big time", but I'm guessing your definition for that term is no where near mine. Maybe down your way, but not in mine. It's definitely not affecting the waterfowl hunters. I have an idea...let's do a survey :idea: BWAAAAAHAAAAA! 

Then again maybe since there are no ducks in your area, they're all coyote hunting?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> Not really...Because if you've never hunted in December...


When did I say "never"? I have hunted waterfowl then, but not often. But I'm out there, I'm always scouting, along with several hunting buddies. All if find by me is tons of geese, which as I've said are not my target. I had several offers to hunt the late split...chose deer hunting instead.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Shlwego said:


> I've now read through every post. What struck me in the initial post is this:
> *Task force members have observed that duck hunting success rapidly declines after the first few days whenever the season begins in early to mid October because the hunting pressure causes local birds to leave the area. Duck harvest does not begin to pick up again until larger numbers of migrant ducks begin to arrive in the zone as the winter weather pushes birds south out of Canada.*
> 
> Is this not ALSO the case here? Every year we talk about the post opening week lull. And we obviously have guys who want to hunt later into December. The solution? In my opinion lets try a front loaded split. We, to my knowledge, have NEVER experimented with a front split, though we've had many "late weekend" splits around the New Year holiday. This year we've now tried a 4-day late split, and last year we had an "early" late split just one week after regular season ended. IF we had a 9-day opening split, the early season-tennis shoe-and-teal hunters would be satisfied, and then a re-opener around the week before Halloween for the balance of the season would give the December guys more opportunity. Seems like a compromise that might work. Early warm hunting, "most" of the season in October and November, and another week to 10-days into December.
> ...


DNRE waterfowl workgroup will NOT entertain this concept. Said so themselves a couple of years ago. Ironic that Russ Mason speaks near the start of every CWAC meeting about how they value CWAC's input and are going to be relying more and more on them for ideas and decissions, but then the "can do this but not this...." starts.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yeah JD, TONS, didntyaknow?


I should call the DNR and find out how many "fur harvester" licenses they sell per year? And we think waterfowl hunter numbers are low. Then again, maybe there's this hotbed of license sales in SW Michigan that would qualify as a "ton"? :lol: BWWWWWAAAAHHAAAAA


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## LakeEffectMDHA (Dec 15, 2011)

goosemanrdk said:


> DNRE


DNRE was dissolved in 2011, been DNR ever since

Yea, Lake Effect is in to push 'er another post to infinity before the lock:lol:


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

goosemanrdk said:


> DNRE waterfowl workgroup will NOT entertain this concept. Said so themselves a couple of years ago. Ironic that Russ Mason speaks near the start of every CWAC meeting about how they value CWAC's input and are going to be relying more and more on them for ideas and decissions, but then the "can do this but not this...." starts.


because the DNR gets bombarded about losing the late new year split. don't blame them. 

the guys that say they'll trade their late split for more time in december are the first to jump the DNR when they make a change like that.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> DNRE waterfowl workgroup will NOT entertain this concept. Said so themselves a couple of years ago. Ironic that Russ Mason speaks near the start of every CWAC meeting about how they value CWAC's input and are going to be relying more and more on them for ideas and decissions, but then the "can do this but not this...." starts.


there's no question Robert that the CWAC does not dictate to the DNR what will happen. It merely provides input, which the department can take or leave. Not my idea guys...that's the way it's set up. Afterall, it is the Citizens Waterfowl ADVISORY Committee


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Dude...I live in the country on a large piece of property. I see what's going on. My eyes are OPEN!
> 
> You say "big time", but I'm guessing your definition for that term is no where near mine. Maybe down your way, but not in mine. It's definitely not affecting the waterfowl hunters. I have an idea...let's do a survey :idea: BWAAAAAHAAAAA!
> 
> Then again maybe since there are no ducks in your area, they're all coyote hunting?


Funny, now all of the sudden you want to be a keyboard cowboy, mocking people and what not for stating a simple observation. Most people on this forum give up on suggestions or just sit back because of trolls like you and Shi. I've mostly joked with you in the past regarding difference in the opinion. You have no clue, and its obvious when cold weather hits, thanksgiving, you run inside. Yes TONS, A LOT, **** piles, whatever you want to call it, hunt coyotes around us...MI has a lot of options of hunting game..We have a difference in opinion, I get that, thought you did too.. 

I hunt 5-6 different states a year bud and 3 different flyways..


----------



## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> the guys that say they'll trade their late split for more time in december are the first to jump the DNR when they make a change like that.


Prove it. Let's see your data. Lets see your research. Where can one quantify what you are saying.


----------



## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> because the DNR gets bombarded about losing the late new year split. don't blame them.
> 
> the guys that say they'll trade their late split for more time in december are the first to jump the DNR when they make a change like that.


Hey wasn't blaming them, just answering the question and then pointing out why some things might not get proposed. Same reason Bud got no support for a week later start in Zone 3. DNR waterfowl workgroup said that wouldn't go for a break between zone openers like that, per backroadstraveler, so makes sense he got no support. Why vote for something that is guarenteed to get shot down by the DNR.

FYI the year that they said they wouldn't entertain the early split was 2 falls ago. Remeber that, oh ya that was the first time in a long time that we had a split different then the late new year split. So, kinda hard for that stance to have been because of complaining of "loosing" the late new year split.


----------



## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

LakeEffectMDHA said:


> DNRE was dissolved in 2011, been DNR ever since
> 
> :lol:


My bad, missed that change.


----------



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> Funny, now all of the sudden you want to be a keyboard cowboy, mocking people and what not for stating a simple observation. Most people on this forum give up on suggestions or just sit back because of trolls like you and Shi. I've mostly joked with you in the past regarding difference in the opinion. You have no clue, and its obvious when cold weather hits, thanksgiving, you run inside. Yes TONS, A LOT, **** piles, whatever you want to call it, hunt coyotes around us...MI has a lot of options of hunting game..We have a difference in opinion, I get that, thought you did too..
> 
> I hunt 5-6 different states a year bud and 3 different flyways..


Maybe in Illinois, WHERE YOU LIVE, they sell #$#%#$loads of furbearer licenses, but in the SLP? I'd be surprised if the number were in the thousands. Much less than the waterfowl numbers, which I believe are around 50k.

Yes we're going to agree to disagree, but I'm not stooping to namecalling as you are. The entertainment factor alone is keeping me going. I am, afterall, the energizer bunny  So carry on...


----------



## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Maybe in Illinois, WHERE YOU LIVE, they sell #$#%#$loads of furbearer licenses, but in the SLP? I'd be surprised if the number were in the thousands. Much less than the waterfowl numbers, which I believe are around 50k.
> 
> Yes we're going to agree to disagree, but I'm not stooping to namecalling as you are. The entertainment factor alone is keeping me going. I am, afterall, the energizer bunny  So carry on...


You don't need a fur bearers license to kill coyotes, thought you would know that since, I mean, you know it all, right? Yep I live in IL, moved here to work and make money. Travel very often back home to MI to hunt with family and friends...Stooping doesn't have to come in the fashion of name calling, presentation speaks for itself.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

goosemanrdk said:


> Hey wasn't blaming them, just answering the question and then pointing out why some things might not get proposed. Same reason Bud got no support for a week later start in Zone 3. DNR waterfowl workgroup said that wouldn't go for a break between zone openers like that, per backroadstraveler, so makes sense he got no support. Why vote for something that is guarenteed to get shot down by the DNR.
> 
> FYI the year that they said they wouldn't entertain the early split was 2 falls ago. Remeber that, oh ya that was the first time in a long time that we had a split different then the late new year split. So, kinda hard for that stance to have been because of complaining of "loosing" the late new year split.


oh i agree with what your saying, didnt really mean to quote you directly, just stating what happens in general.

i would kill for an early split but its a tough sell as you pointed out. mainly because it throws a monkey wrench into the GMA's. they have hard time getting crops off and flooded. they could open their marsh/moist soils only areas for that early season tho and count the second opener as the true opener.....basically 9 day early teal/woodies season is what it would really be. kills 2 birds with 1 stone really.


----------



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> You don't need a fur bearers license to kill coyotes, thought you would know that since, I mean, you know it all, right? Yep I live in IL, moved here to work and make money. Travel very often back home to MI to hunt with family and friends...Stooping doesn't have to come in the fashion of name calling, presentation speaks for itself.


Well....I only have a 5th grade education, but it seems pretty clear in the DNR book...

_Fur Harvester License
All persons who hunt and trap furbearing animals, including those
who trap or hunt on their own enclosed farmland or private property,
must have a valid fur harvester license. This license allows you to
hunt fox, bobcat, *coyote* or raccoon, and trap badger, bobcat, fisher,
marten, fox, coyote, weasel, mink, raccoon, muskrat, beaver, otter,
skunk or opossum.
Exception: See footnotes 1, 5 and 10 in table on page 22.
Persons 17 years of age and older must possess a valid fur
harvester license. A junior resident fur harvester-trap only license is
available to youth 10 to 16 years old without hunter safety training.
Youth under 10 years old may trap furbearers as licensed through
the Mentored Youth Hunting Program (see page 13)._

or are we still agreeing to disagree?


----------



## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

goosemanrdk said:


> DNRE waterfowl workgroup will NOT entertain this concept. Said so themselves a couple of years ago. Ironic that Russ Mason speaks near the start of every CWAC meeting about how they value CWAC's input and are going to be relying more and more on them for ideas and decissions, but then the "can do this but not this...." starts.


Interesting. Thanks for the info. A question: Has the CWAC ever voted to implement something they KNEW would get shot down, just for the sake of making a point? Or would that be bad form? If the CWAC is merely ADVISORY, as has been pointed out, then the attitude of the DNR saying "can do this but not this...." really just means the DNR is saying "give us what we want so we can rubber stamp it and then say we have done this with civilian input." How convenient! Why bother having a CWAC at all in that case? 

Please NOTE I am not saying this to belittle the work that the CWAC does, but I do now wonder if that work really matters?


----------



## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Well....I only have a 5th grade education, but it seems pretty clear in the DNR book...
> 
> _Fur Harvester License
> All persons who hunt and trap furbearing animals, including those
> ...


Yep we must be...

Small Game
A small game license entitles you to hunt rabbit, hare, squirrel (fox 
and gray), pheasant, ruffed grouse, sharp-tailed grouse, woodcock 
(HIP endorsement required), quail, crow, coyote (applies to Michigan 
residents only) and waterfowl (with a federal waterfowl stamp and 
Michigan waterfowl hunting license, if age 16 or older) during the
open season. Opossum, porcupine, weasel, red squirrel, skunk, 
ground squirrel and woodchuck also may be taken year-round with a 
valid hunting license. No license is required for a resident, residents 
spouse or residents children to hunt small game on the enclosed 
farmlands where they live, except a federal waterfowl stamp and 
state waterfowl license are required to hunt waterfowl.


FOOTNOTE:

READ FOOTNOTE 1 and 5


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Shlwego said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the info. A question: Has the CWAC ever voted to implement something they KNEW would get shot down, just for the sake of making a point? Or would that be bad form? If the CWAC is merely ADVISORY, as has been pointed out, then the attitude of the DNR saying "can do this but not this...." really just means the DNR is saying "give us what we want so we can rubber stamp it and then say we have done this with civilian input." How convenient! Why bother having a CWAC at all in that case?
> 
> Please NOTE I am not saying this to belittle the work that the CWAC does, but I do now wonder if that work really matters?


see, shlwego has it right. i like the way you think...little outside the box but fresh. bellyup take note.


----------



## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> see, shlwego has it right. i like the way you think...little outside the box but fresh. bellyup take note.


If I remember from prior years many posts have been stated early wood duck and teal seasons....But again that would need to track to those hands of the CWAC


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

I've learned a lot in 10 pages:

1) Water Hazard is wise 
2) I don't use the words "Bud" and "Bro" nearly enough in my posts
3) Illinois apparently is in Michigan's Zone 3
4) Michigan is under utilizing it's coyote hunting opportunities
5) And JD is a cowboy with a 5th grade education


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

TSS Caddis said:


> I've learned a lot in 10 pages:
> 
> 1) Water Hazard is wise
> 2) I don't use the words "Bud" and "Bro" nearly enough in my posts
> ...


Don't forget, we also learned that JD and ShiKid are not always right.
JD was wrong about the license needed to HUNT coyotes
Shi Kid was wrong about why the DNR waterfowl workgroup would not entertain an early split(griping about loss of the late new year split):lol:

Also, Shlwego is also pretty wise too.


----------



## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

TSS Caddis said:


> I've learned a lot in 10 pages:
> 
> 1) Water Hazard is wise
> 2) I don't use the words "Bud" and "Bro" nearly enough in my posts
> ...


Yep you got it with the additions of goosemanrdk..Thanks for your input, back to the bay please...:coolgleam


----------



## Blacklab77 (Jun 21, 2006)

I think it has been said many times here over the years. That if there was a early Wood/Teal season that the regular season could start later and go later, cause the guys that see alot of there birds taken being those in the early days of the regular season won't be losing out.


----------



## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

SBE II said:


> Yep you got it with the additions of goosemanrdk..Thanks for your input, back to the bay please...:coolgleam


Alos, we learned that we can expect to have at least 8(1 per month) more of these threads before the 2013 duck opener in Zone 1(Sep 28th).


----------



## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Blacklab77 said:


> I think it has been said many times here over the years. That if there was a early Wood/Teal season that the regular season could start later and go later, cause the guys that see alot of there birds taken being those in the early days of the regular season won't be losing out.


Blacklab 77 is wise as well.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

goosemanrdk said:


> Blacklab 77 is wise as well.


We vote you moderator of the thread  Yes I agree, 8 more threads coming...All started by Z3 members located south of 94 we're selfish..:evilsmile


----------



## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

These threads make me miss Huntsman27 and Lewy.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

KLR said:


> These threads make me miss Huntsman27 and Lewy.


totally forgot about huntsman27, haha.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

goosemanrdk said:


> Don't forget, we also learned that JD and ShiKid are not always right.
> JD was wrong about the license needed to HUNT coyotes
> Shi Kid was wrong about why the DNR waterfowl workgroup would not entertain an early split(griping about loss of the late new year split):lol:
> 
> Also, Shlwego is also pretty wise too.


whoaa...wasn't wrong about that at all. just because they moved the split forward a few weeks on a compromise vote doesn't mean it was freely able to jump all the way up to september. lol.

that is one of the main reasons it was not offered up for front splits as told to me by someone on the advisory committee. you couldn't pry the 2 day split from the south guys it would cause too much backlash.

and as i stated earlier...one of the primary reasons front loads are not favorable by dnr is managed units will struggle with it. very hard to be open and ready for a late september start (first 5-9 days) of a front split.


----------



## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

goosemanrdk said:


> Alos, we learned that we can expect to have at least 8(1 per month) more of these threads before the 2013 duck opener in Zone (Sep 28th).


I'll take the over on that...


----------



## Fall Flight Punisher (Aug 14, 2008)

KLR.... how could you forget duck killer clyde


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> whoaa...wasn't wrong about that at all. just because they moved the split forward a few weeks on a compromise vote doesn't mean it was freely able to jump all the way up to september. lol.
> 
> that is one of the main reasons it was not offered up for front splits as told to me by someone on the advisory committee. you couldn't pry the 2 day split from the south guys it would cause too much backlash.
> 
> and as i stated earlier...one of the primary reasons front loads are not favorable by dnr is managed units will struggle with it. very hard to be open and ready for a late september start (first 5-9 days) of a front split.


Didn't you indicate earlier how the GMU's how variation in dates? Why should that be conducive to the rest of the state?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

SBE II said:


> Didn't you indicate earlier how the GMU's how variation in dates? Why should that be conducive to the rest of the state?


wow sbe, again your picking parts of the argument that suit your needs no matter how relevant they are to the conversation. 

that was my reply when you compared SD goose zones to michigans duck zones. you just want a fight...when you got something valid, let me know.

but just to humor you, we have (or had) goose seasons that ran all different kinds of dates and multiple zones starting sept 1st thru end of january. but i hope you can understand the difference between goose seasons and duck seasons...


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> wow sbe, again your picking parts of the argument that suit your needs no matter how relevant they are to the conversation.
> 
> that was my reply when you compared SD goose zones to michigans duck zones. you just want a fight...when you got something valid, let me know.
> 
> but just to humor you, we have (or had) goose seasons that ran all different kinds of dates and multiple zones starting sept 1st thru end of january. but i hope you can understand the difference between goose seasons and duck seasons...


WHOA WHOA WHOA..Picking parts? How would the GMU then be relative to different zones in SD? So was it your initial comment off target? I was simply indicating how the state had more then 3 zones, it was you sir that went on the GMU tangent. Do you ever admit to being wrong? Or is it you speak and everyone listens? I would like to think everyone should be heard but then again I'm not sure that's your motive. 

Regarding season, more than familiar, a mallard hunt round my parts and Belly's would be epic right now and years past. When the season went out during thanksgiving, thats dumb, why participation? Because instead of chipping away early on because you would cry, we took those dates and then added them in december...Ice or no ice...This isn't canada we dont get 4 ft of snow, birds stage on rivers, plenty of food here. I mean I do hunt irrigation alley where corn is king..


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## pinman (Feb 2, 2012)

SBE II said:


> WHOA WHOA WHOA..Picking parts? How would the GMU then be relative to different zones in SD? So was it your initial comment off target? I was simply indicating how the state had more then 3 zones, it was you sir that went on the GMU tangent. Do you ever admit to being wrong? Or is it you speak and everyone listens? I would like to think everyone should be heard but then again I'm not sure that's your motive.
> 
> Regarding season, more than familiar, a mallard hunt round my parts and Belly's would be epic right now and years past. When the season went out during thanksgiving, thats dumb, why participation? Because instead of chipping away early on because you would cry, we took those dates and then added them in december...Ice or no ice...This isn't canada we dont get 4 ft of snow, birds stage on rivers, plenty of food here. I mean I do hunt irrigation alley where corn is king..


What flyway is SD in? Last i checked the central they live under different regs than michigan. If you want to compare zones and seasons from another state it needs to be in the miss flyway.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## pinman (Feb 2, 2012)

Didn't the northern lower have an early split a few years back? I seem to remember a lot of complaining about being closed during oct then getting froze out, but my memory could be failing me. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

SBE, your so all over the place i don't think you know what your trying to achieve.

and yes Pin, z2 had a split during mid season or so and was a cluster. i never hunted it but seem to remember guys complaining about it. KLR mighta had experience with it.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

TSS Caddis said:


> If I lived in Illinois I'd spend more time looking for a good pump gun for next year and less worrying about out of state season dates.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...th-gun-control-bills-firearms-group-warns-no/
> 
> ...


Old news...already got pushed...I'd be more concerned with wal mart backing Biden...

Until tomorrow boys...things to do...shi I want what everyone else south of 94 wants a new zone and later DUCK season...

Pin if you can't see my correlation in states I have mentioned I'm purely relating how other states are able to have zones more relative to better quality hunts not participation. Oh yes and SD has better resources and less of a population.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

Sorry guys,

Really didnt mean for this to begin another season date debate... just thought it was cool to see how another state does things...

and really the whole thought behind what i was trying to come across with my first post, was a way to explain the season dates so that maybe more people would be informed and maybe not have such hard feelings over the dates chosen.

The main reason was the points i had underlined, and the one that jumped out the most to me in the beginning was the one Shlwego pointed out...

We have all seen it, experienced it, and continue to deal with it... But like anything adjustments can be made and make even more people happy.

(when i was still in MI, I dreamed of a front end split)

not to mention it could give the GMU's two "opening days" with two lotteries (more $$$) and IMO would make more people happy.. Early opener for casuals, still hunt late october-november, and give the guys on the southern end a bone with more time in December..

IDK how to go about gathering data to back that up, but id sure try if I was still back in Michigan... I think it would be a plausible solution


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## pinman (Feb 2, 2012)

SBE II said:


> Old news...already got pushed...I'd be more concerned with wal mart backing Biden...
> 
> Until tomorrow boys...things to do...shi I want what everyone else south of 94 wants a new zone and later DUCK season...
> 
> Pin if you can't see my correlation in states I have mentioned I'm purely relating how other states are able to have zones more relative to better quality hunts not participation. Oh yes and SD has better resources and less of a population.


But your comparing apples and oranges, Michigan is not allowed 5 zones or it would be done. I don't think anyone is trying to torture you we just have to live inside the given frame work. If you want to go for the moon go after washingtons season.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> I've learned a lot in 10 pages:
> 
> 1) Water Hazard is wise
> 2) I don't use the words "Bud" and "Bro" nearly enough in my posts
> ...



Dang Caddis, you really come up with some doozies! Dang near spit my sasparilla sody out my nose just now :lol:

Now 'scuse me boys and gals, as I'm climbing in my pick um up truck 










off to this little, far south piece of the SLP known as Illinois to shoot me some coyotes. Apparently there are "Tons" of hunters, but I been told I don't need no ding dang frankenfurters license...just a valid federal duck stamp :evilsmile


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

pinman said:


> But your comparing apples and oranges, Michigan is not allowed 5 zones or it would be done. I don't think anyone is trying to torture you we just have to live inside the given frame work. If you want to go for the moon go after washingtons season.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Or better yet, just hunt in Illinois WHERE YOU LIVE :idea:

now 'scuse me...gotta spit my chew :evilsmile


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

just ducky said:


> Most don't realize, our spinning wing proposal was shot down 3 times by the DNR, and it took many negotiations to come up with a proposal that THEY could go along with. Then we went to CWAC, and they shot it down. So once again, we negotiated a compromise, and it eventually went to the NRC. The NRC was not unanimously in favor either, so I personally spoke with those opposed, got the reasons why they opposed it, and was able to once again get a compromise. Most also don't know that from start to finish, our proposal took over 8 months to accomplish. A couple of us SFCHA officers spent tons of time and money (out of our own pocket) to get where we got. I don't say that to look for sympathy...I say it to reinforce what I previously said about it not being easy or quick. Persistence can pay off.


Just Ducky - Registered Duck Lobbyist

Please donate to the Just Ducky PAC - fighting for your spinner suppression rights!





:lol::help::lol::help::lol::help:


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Sorry guys,
> 
> Really didnt mean for this to begin another season date debate... just thought it was cool to see how another state does things...
> 
> ...


One thing you have accomplished, you have opened up some dialect that has never been opened before. I learned how to go about getting change, if it is wanted. My money is on it is wanted though. 

One thing is for sure, the status quo is there to be challenged. It needs it. You are much better at wording things than I am, and thank you for putting it in words the Shi Kid can understand. I agree with you, and you put pretty much everything I ever post about on seasons in a couple paragraphs and the Kid understood it, and even referenced it so I would pay attention. Thanks Kid. Unlike JD, I only graduated 4th grade, but I have a real job now, I don't draw pictures all day.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

TSS Caddis said:


> 5) And JD is a cowboy with a 5th grade education


It was probably fractions that were his downfall. Try the pie plate method, it seemed to help my son. Giddy- up!











Yet another post on this thread to bump my post count.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

Fall Flight Punisher said:


> KLR.... how could you forget duck killer clyde


Prolly* cuz he's still on some other sites I frequent, so I don't really miss him.







*in remembrance of Lewy.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> SBE, your so all over the place i don't think you know what your trying to achieve.
> 
> and yes Pin, z2 had a split during mid season or so and was a cluster. i never hunted it but seem to remember guys complaining about it. KLR mighta had experience with it.


2005.

http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/publications/pdfs/HuntingWildlifeHabitat/Guides/05waterfowl.pdf

It was a disaster. Everything N of US10 was frozen by 11/25.


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## waterfowlhunter83 (Aug 10, 2005)

KLR said:


> These threads make me miss Huntsman27 and Lewy.


Ah yes, nothing like getting called out to the trap line by Huntsman27.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TNL said:


> Just Ducky - Registered Duck Lobbyist
> 
> Please donate to the Just Ducky PAC - fighting for your spinner suppression rights!
> 
> ...


Now there's a great idea! I think I'll put on my cowboy hat, move to Illinois, and become a lobbyist for duck hunting activists in Michigan. May even learn to hunt coyotes...AND learn the correct license that I need to have :evilsmile

Say good night Gracie!


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## LakeEffectMDHA (Dec 15, 2011)

just ducky said:


> Now there's a great idea! I think I'll put on my cowboy hat, move to Illinois, and become a lobbyist for duck hunting activists in Michigan. May even learn to hunt coyotes...AND learn the correct license that I need to have :evilsmile
> 
> Say good night Gracie!


Good night, bud


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

just ducky said:


> Now there's a great idea! I think I'll put on my cowboy hat, move to Ill-annoy and become a lobbyist for duck hunting activists in Michigan. May even learn to hunt coyotes...AND learn the correct license that I need to have :evilsmile
> 
> Say good night Gracie!


I fixed the spelling for you.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

KLR said:


> I fixed the spelling for you.


OUCH!  Guess with my 5th grade edumication I didn't learn how to spell very well :lol: I know I can't read the dang DNR's own guide...what's a "footnote" anyway? Think I'm gonna lobby the DNR to make that furbearers chart easier to understand so us with limited education can follow....

AND.....They're off.......


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> OUCH!  Guess with my 5th grade edumication I didn't learn how to spell very well :lol: I know I can't read the dang DNR's own guide...what's a "footnote" anyway? Think I'm gonna lobby the DNR to make that furbearers chart easier to understand so us with limited education can follow....
> 
> AND.....They're off.......


I see you opted for sleep rather than coyote hunting last night. Lewy would be so disappointed in you, choosing sleep over your chance to coyote hunt.:evil:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Yeah we all know (or we should anyway) that only a small percentage of waterfowlers follow these website forums. So to get an accurate read you do need more input. The wildlife division has said numerous times at CWAC meetings that they intend to do more thorough surveys in the future regarding seasons, splits, licenses, etc. I always figured that meant something similar to that old survey report I posted from 2002 or so. Maybe that's something to suggest to CWAC, to suggest to the DNR...do another survey to get current data?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> ...In all honesty if it weren't for the early and late season goose, I currently wouldn't buy a tag for MI.


Completely opposite me. If goose were our big ticket bird here, I definitely wouldn't hunt waterfowl. When the discussion at CWAC starts into goose seasons and management units, I glaze over...


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

It also now seems to me that the DNR/NRC set up the CWAC so that hunters have somebody to complain to other than the government agencies themselves. Essentially they can say: "If you like or don't like XXX about the waterfowl hunting regs, take it up with your CWAC rep, and they'll get the message to us." Which might or might NOT actually happen, but it allows them to "pass the buck" on listening to it directly. Then they tell the "reps" "We want your advice provided it's within these limited parameters. You can do this, but not this." It seems to boil down to the DNR doing what they want, and letting the CWAC take the heat for something they really don't infulence "much" anyway. No wonder the guys on the CWAC call it a thankless job!

shlwego ? That ! Paragraph, is the best statement on all of these pages
kudo's......


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

field-n-feathers said:


> Because as I stated in my last sentence....Most waterfowl hunters don't follow along with these discussions. Heck, only 33% of them want to keep a late split. That's not even close to a majority. It's just the largest number of people who said "keep the late split".


Where did you retrieve 33%? If this were the case, why was the late split duration extended this year? 

Also, when you corrected my sentence for me, you should have indicated, "just as long as they keep the split for 4+ days." Two days, not so much.


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## pinman (Feb 2, 2012)

SBE II said:


> Good morning, hopefully we can get to 20 pages today. If this is your way of saying sorry, then I accept. Pinman, just because SD is under a different flyway and has more days has nothing to do with the fact of different zones. You say it won't ever happen, nothing ever happens without proper initiative, and conflict resolution.


Of course season length plays into zone number and selection. If we had a 105 day season per the pacific flyway would we even be having this discussion? 74 day to 60 also has a big impact as well as well as 39 to 30 during a restrictive season. You also have to look at the latitude change in comparison.

I never said it will never happen, but all i hear is complaining about the cwac and the dnr, and comparisons to states under different framework. My point is that instead of going after the people that have to live under a framework maybe you should go after the framework. If your going to complain about seasons and zones you should try to understand how these come about.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

field-n-feathers said:


> Just add the survey questions to when you buy your license. Shouldn't cost anything to do that.
> 
> Surveys are done all of the time. Based upon surveys that I've seen, I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty that the majority of Zone 3 will want an October 8th start. As Shi Kid stated before, be careful what you wish for. The vast majority of waterfowl hunters don't follow along with these discussions, IMHO of course.


I'm not suggesting that you ask people what they want. Most people want what they're comfortable with - i.e. the status quo. What I'm suggesting is that for SEVERAL years they just go ahead and make some fairly drastic changes year to year, and then after each season get feedback on how well hunters liked it or not. Just as examples: They could do an early 9-day split starting on the earlist possible day or starting the first weekend in Oct; a late 9-day split for late December or even mid-January, an early 2-Day, etc. The point is to TRY different things and then measure reactions. They might find that an early 9-day split with another opener 3-weeks later is really popular to a lot of people. It would allow two opening days for guys who don't really like the cold. But since they've never been exposed to something like that, they probably wouldn't ask for it in a survey that merely asked "what dates do you want?" To be sure, weather would play a part in all of this, and we know it's not predictable, but I think some out-of-the-norm experimenting would be worthwhile. Sure there'd be a lot of complaining, too, but in the long run I think they'd be able to settle on what was "really" the most preferred season/split structure.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

pinman said:


> Of course season length plays into zone number and selection. If we had a 105 day season per the pacific flyway would we even be having this discussion? 74 day to 60 also has a big impact as well as well as 39 to 30 during a restrictive season. You also have to look at the latitude change in comparison.
> 
> I never said it will never happen, but all i hear is complaining about the cwac and the dnr, and comparisons to states under different framework. My point is that instead of going after the people that have to live under a framework maybe you should go after the framework. If your going to complain about seasons and zones you should try to understand how these come about.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Sir, while I have respect for much of you posts, I think you have selective hearing on mine. This is why I have indicated in many posts you have to go around CWAC, just like others have stated, the CWAC is only in place to alleviate the headache for the DNR. We cannot have representatives that give input, "Didn't hunt." That person shouldn't even be at the meeting or on the committee. I am going after the framework, Zone 4, proposed questions on a survey? Wouldn't that be an indication of targeting framework.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Completely opposite me. If goose were our big ticket bird here, I definitely wouldn't hunt waterfowl. When the discussion at CWAC starts into goose seasons and management units, I glaze over...


This is where you show ignorance to the data you continiously refer to, why is september the highest participation?


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shlwego said:


> I'm not suggesting that you ask people what they want. Most people want what they're comfortable with - i.e. the status quo. What I'm suggesting is that for SEVERAL years they just go ahead and make some fairly drastic changes year to year, and then after each season get feedback on how well hunters liked it or not. Just as examples: They could do an early 9-day split starting on the earlist possible day or starting the first weekend in Oct; a late 9-day split for late December or even mid-January, an early 2-Day, etc. The point is to TRY different things and then measure reactions. They might find that an early 9-day split with another opener 3-weeks later is really popular to a lot of people. It would allow two opening days for guys who don't really like the cold. But since they've never been exposed to something like that, they probably wouldn't ask for it in a survey that merely asked "what dates do you want?" To be sure, weather would play a part in all of this, and we know it's not predictable, but I think some out-of-the-norm experimenting would be worthwhile. Sure there'd be a lot of complaining, too, but in the long run I think they'd be able to settle on what was "really" the most preferred season/split structure.


Mind you I'm not arguing against your idea. But the problem with doing this kind of experiment with waterfowl is there are so many variables that may make a season better or worse for each individual hunter. What may be great dates this year, with this years weather, and this years crop of birds, may be terrible next year. For instance this year the affects of Hurricane Sandy had a huge impact on the movement of birds here (at least that's what everyone I've spoken with feels). I had some great hunts because of Sandy. Next year? Not likely we'll have another hurricane like that affect us, so will I be as satisfied? Don't know. My point is that weather is just one huge factor in waterfowling. Our great lakes mallard population is another huge issue. Since the statistics show a majority of our mallard harvest is birds that are raised in the great lakes, if we have a poor hatch, that certainly affects our harvest, AND our for many, our satisfaction.

The analysts often try to measure things like this, and the DNR does such measurements, but I've heard it argued for years that waterfowl cannot be measured the same as something like deer, pheasants, rabbits, etc. Yes, weather on Nov 15th will affect the deer harvest, but there are just so many variables in waterfowling that can affect our satisfaction level.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> This is where you show ignorance to the data you continiously refer to, why is september the highest participation?


What the???? Page 18...table at top...October is the huge spike...that's what I referred to before.

http://ww2.dnr.state.mi.us/publicat...abitat/Reports/WLD-library/3400-3499/3443.pdf


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

SBE II said:


> But you assume that information JD, until its been attempted, you don't know if it will. We're not completely cutting out Oct, we're just pushing it back. If we could convince legislation on the non resident tag increase it should fill a void if there was a lack. In all honesty if it weren't for the early and late season goose, I currently wouldn't buy a tag for MI.


With that logic in mind, I vote we keep the season dates the same, increase the non-resident tag and be ahead of the game.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> Now that I will agree with, and my two cents is it's just human nature due mainly to the weather turning crappy. Yes, many of us actually appreciate the poor weather. But when you look at the waterfowlers in Michigan as a whole, with maybe 50k licenses sold, and a good share of those who only hunt once or twice per year, that cuts the numbers down dramatically. Then how many would rather hunt in nice weather in October, and really don't like to hunt in rain/sleet/snow? I'm guessing a lot. Again, human nature. So my thinnking is once you get to Nov 1st, you've cut the active waterfowlers in half, or more, simply because of what I said above. JMO.


But much of this and the data reflected in surveys, COULD be only based on assumptions.

Look at the 2002 data you showed.
Why was November participation lower than october? Weather, maybe. the fact that deer hunting is king in this state, maybe.

Why is December participation lower yet? Weather, maybe. Could the fact that we have only ever(per someone elses statement in this thread) had a december season that went for a decent amount(15days) of time into the beginning of December make for a tuff comparison, maybe. 
Lets be realistic with the "norm" being for the season to only run thru the first weekend in December, how many of the "deer" hunters are going to get their stuff back out for 1 weekend. Not many, how many might if the season went (for more than just one oddball year) for 2 or 3 weekends into December might actually get their stuff back out after hunting deer and chase fowl again? Some, Many more? Hard to say as it hasn't been tried with any consistency.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> But much of this and the data reflected in surveys, COULD be only based on assumptions.
> 
> Look at the 2002 data you showed.
> Why was November participation lower than october? Weather, maybe. the fact that deer hunting is king in this state, maybe.
> ...


Yeah we don't know why those numbers spike in either direction...we all make assumptions. And there's another huge assumption here...that the DNR's survey methodology and questions were sound in 2002. We've had a taste of this recently with the spinning wing decoy surveys at SRSGA. Some of the questions leave a lot to be desired. Unfortunately their surveys are the only data we have, unless somebody out there with really deep pockets is willing to conduct their own.


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## pinman (Feb 2, 2012)

SBE II said:


> Sir, while I have respect for much of you posts, I think you have selective hearing on mine. This is why I have indicated in many posts you have to go around CWAC, just like others have stated, the CWAC is only in place to alleviate the headache for the DNR. We cannot have representatives that give input, "Didn't hunt." That person shouldn't even be at the meeting or on the committee. I am going after the framework, Zone 4, proposed questions on a survey? Wouldn't that be an indication of targeting framework.


I'm just making the point that when you go around the cwac you should also go around the dnr straight to the feds. Better yet work with both cwac and dnr to try and get the framework changed. I'm not sure your going to get the 4 zone if it means losing the split. Without the split a 30 day season would be a disaster.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

TSS Caddis said:


> With that logic in mind, I vote we keep the season dates the same, increase the non-resident tag and be ahead of the game.


 Make Illinois residents pay double :evilsmile


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

pinman said:


> I'm just making the point that when you go around the cwac you should also go around the dnr straight to the feds. Better yet work with both cwac and dnr to try and get the framework changed. I'm not sure your going to get the 4 zone if it means losing the split. Without the split a 30 day season would be a disaster.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 people can talk all they want about going around the CWAC, DNR, or any group, but that's not likely to get you where you want to go. 

And before we keep bashing the CWAC, here's the history of the committee from the DNR's website. 

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-39002_48670-183526--,00.html

You'll notice right at the start, that the original problem was the NRC made their own decisions, and in essence "went around" the DNR. Therefore they created the CWAC in an attempt to avoid that. Now some of you are suggesting doing exactly what the NRC apparently did back then!


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> What the???? Page 18...table at top...October is the huge spike...that's what I referred to before.
> 
> http://ww2.dnr.state.mi.us/publicat...abitat/Reports/WLD-library/3400-3499/3443.pdf


Apologies, looking at goose hunters chart. Please do note regarding SLP we do enjoy hunting later by some of the data. Now I do believe the split drives down participation because of the holiday season and those that have tried found there's a ton of competition because it's typically when I see every deer hunter become a waterfowl hunter for 2 days. 

In the survey of course the numbers are going to skew when you ask questions what months did you hunt and during that time frame you only had 8 days to hunt in December for SLP. Again not many days to hunt. AND they closed it during thanksgiving..Stupid

And it also seems people could careless about hunting the opener in their respective zones, is that due to the fact that they feel its pointless?

Question 14 is also very vague..Have a more concentrated question.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

TSS Caddis said:


> With that logic in mind, I vote we keep the season dates the same, increase the non-resident tag and be ahead of the game.


Divers tend to always push before the puddlers...of course you would..


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Make Illinois residents pay double :evilsmile


Not a resident, I keep my information in the mitten. Thanks though :lol:


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/WLD_report_3545_2010_waterfowl_harvest_survey_388078_7.pdf

Check out the survey data on page 26.:yikes:


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Bellyup said:


> I know this will never happen, but I think it is time Zone 3 was the bone giver and not the bone receiver.......
> 
> Seriously though, you guys make it sound like oh hell, here, we have to make those zone 3 guys feel like the exist, so here is a little somthing to get you to shut up for a while.


yep, thats exactly what it was. you can take it an enjoy it or you can keep complaining and probably lose it. they have a strong argument to move it back to 2 days and probably can back it up with statistics...so i would probably just be happy you got more late days, and ask for them again next year.

so what was your final success rate on those 4 days Belly if you don't mind me asking?


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yep, thats exactly what it was. you can take it an enjoy it or you can keep complaining and probably lose it. they have a strong argument to move it back to 2 days and probably can back it up with statistics...so i would probably just be happy you got more late days, and ask for them again next year.
> 
> so what was your final success rate on those 4 days Belly if you don't mind me asking?


Me it was 

Limit, Limit, Limit, Limit all mallards and canadas


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> and belly, i quit wasting my time on you long ago. go ask someone who cares about your plight. your best bet is to travel out of state where duck hunting is easy. thats my final answer.


Thank Gawd. I was growing tired of your short quips as well, and actually reverted to responding to your meaningless chest thumping respect me as I am the master of all things waterfowling posts. :lol:

If you quit so long ago, how come you still read my posts ? You seriously posted something as a response to one of my posts that had nothing to do with you. You butted in where you were not wanted, as usual. Are you sure your nickname is not Richard Noggin ? :evilsmile:evilsmile:gaga: And you wonder why people get tired of your posts... hell you start half of this with your posts.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> didnt really care either way to me, just repeating what has been said on here. Some guys loved the additional 2 days added to split, and there was a few threads on here once season got to the last 2 days of season and it was closed on last weekend...some were absolutely heated over not being able to hunt that weekend and didn't realize it until it got close to end of season.
> 
> and belly, i quit wasting my time on you long ago. go ask someone who cares about your plight. your best bet is to travel out of state where duck hunting is easy. thats my final answer.


Thank you for establishing that only your opinion matters...Belly has many good points as do many others on this board, you just fail to listen...You're like 3 hours from us...Much much different round our parts..


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

SBE II said:


> Thank you for establishing that only your opinion matters...Belly has many good points as do many others on this board, you just fail to listen...You're like 3 hours from us...Much much different round our parts..


you had me up til the point where you said "belly has many good points".


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yep, thats exactly what it was. you can take it an enjoy it or you can keep complaining and probably lose it. they have a strong argument to move it back to 2 days and probably can back it up with statistics...so i would probably just be happy you got more late days, and ask for them again next year.
> 
> so what was your final success rate on those 4 days Belly if you don't mind me asking?


If you go back and seriously search the posts, I was against this 4 days, in fact, you even posted a time or two about my complaining about it.... go back and re-read your own posts to me about it. 

I would never have given up a weekend, I work all week and can only hunt the weekends. I managed to call in sick for work to hunt those 4 days, risking my job, so I guess I am stupid about duck hunting. 

We killed two birds. I did post my results up, but obviously you don't practice what you preach in searching the threads before you post up........ You do give some good advice, try actually doing it yourself as well. 

Have you figured out you lit the fuse yet ?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

SBE II said:


> Me it was
> 
> Limit, Limit, Limit, Limit all mallards and canadas


i'm very happy for you. but i didn't ask you how you did. 

you realize that teaming up with belly to beat a dead horse isn't the best move right?

i mean its cool to find someone who thinks and wants the same thing, but i would surround yourself with better thinker. may i suggest goosemanrdk. his posts are well thought out, hes from your "zone" and he knows the processes and politics. just a suggestion.

still have faith in you SBE. i know you kill birds and your a decent hunter. don't let this thread define you.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

SBE II said:


> Divers tend to always push before the puddlers...of course you would..


Why change the assumption you've been operating under, that no one knows anything.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Bellyup said:


> If you go back and seriously search the posts, I was against this 4 days, in fact, you even posted a time or two about my complaining about it.... go back and re-read your own posts to me about it.
> 
> I would never have given up a weekend, I work all week and can only hunt the weekends. I managed to call in sick for work to hunt those 4 days, risking my job, so I guess I am stupid about duck hunting.
> 
> ...


i read the 4 day late posts, i know how you did. just wanted to hear you say it here while you preach for later seasons.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i'm very happy for you. but i didn't ask you how you did.
> 
> you realize that teaming up with belly to beat a dead horse isn't the best move right?
> 
> ...


Actually I utilize selective hearing like you shi, right now what Belly Posts makes since...but I do realize in the selective hearing process I try not to place targets on anyones back or be condescending toward anyone, as hard as it is, everyone has their opinions. If I didn't hear everyone, have my thoughts challenged, or challenge others, then I would be like our President, Adolf Obama...So while many may not like what I post or what others post I try to see validity in most statements...


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i'm very happy for you. but i didn't ask you how you did.
> 
> you realize that teaming up with belly to beat a dead horse isn't the best move right?
> 
> ...


That is exactly what i was thinking. Robert is well versed in the CWAC and the needs of zone 3. He knows how to play the political game, I on the other hand am a simple man who has little patience for long drawn out issues that need fixing. I would never be a good rep for CWAC, becasue I drive results, and take the fastest road to achieve results. That is why thery call it business. If the DNR was a business, it would fail within 2 years. If the State of MI was a business it would fail in one year. It seems a problem can only be fixed in a matter of a decade, and by then a new problem exists. How can you secure sustainable growth based on that model ? How can you keep your customer base if all you do is fix what it wrong ? Innovation is a key driver to profitablity. Convert this thought process to Duck Hunting..... stop with the bone tossed quips, that is bad business. If you alineate 1/3 of your customer base..... things don't look to good. 

Anyway, I freely admit I am not the best person to preach season dates. I have what some of us free people call opinions. I don't drink Kool Aid....


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

TSS Caddis said:


> Why change the assumption you've been operating under, that no one knows anything.


Yep you're right, oh wait was that an assumption on your part?


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i read the 4 day late posts, i know how you did. just wanted to hear you say it here while you preach for later seasons.


Seriously ? I preach for later dates into December. What does this have to do with the 4 day split offered this year ? I don't think I need to repeat myself, or do I ? 

Tell you what, since it is obvious to me anyway, you require special attention, the need to have others approve of you and think of you as a person that commands respect. Sort of like we all respect all the old timers and their thoughts and opinions. You want that legend status, to be the one who lays out some words on what product is best and expect all others to agree because well you are a legend. 

I will conceed at this point, to you anyway. I don't like to pick on those with special needs.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

SBE II said:


> Yep you're right, oh wait was that an assumption on your part?


Here are the problems I have with your and Bellyup's thoughts:

1) You seem to think everything should cater to *where* you hunt with no regard to anyone else.
2) You seem to think everything should cater to *what* you hunt with no regard to anyone else.

Can it really be as simple as Water Hazard stated: the majority of Zone 3 hunters do not want to go later? Believe it or not there are areas on Zone 3 outside the SW that may want something different. Believe it or not there are people that don't care to hunt mallards. Can it really be possible that CWAC and the DNR are actually trying to please the majority of the hunters? 

Starting Zone 3 a couple weeks later would benefit me quite a bit, but I realize it would be at someone elses expense. IMO, no hunter in the state is getting 100% of what they want, the catch is that 99% of them are fine with that.

Edit: Please interject Bro and Bud into the above where appropriate. Sorry, never worked at Abercrombie so I'm not sure how to speak "Bro" language.


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## BangBangBang (Mar 30, 2011)

TSS Caddis said:


> Here are the problems I have with your and Bellyup's thoughts:
> 
> 1) *Bro,* You seem to think everything should cater to *where* you hunt with no regard to anyone else.
> 2) *Bud*,You seem to think everything should cater to *what* you hunt with no regard to anyone else.
> ...


Done.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

SBE II said:


> Where did you retrieve 33%? If this were the case, why was the late split duration extended this year?


2010 Michigan Waterfowl Harvest Survey....page 19



Shlwego said:


> IBut since they've never been exposed to something like that, they probably wouldn't ask for it in a survey that merely asked "what dates do you want?"


They don't do it that way. They ask support of specific opening dates, then count the number of votes for each.



goosemanrdk said:


> I was mostly just refering to the basis of Last Saturday, First Saturday, second Saturday. That table would seem to support that concept.


I'd like to see this too. Make the late split back to 2 days even.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

TSS Caddis said:


> Here are the problems I have with your and Bellyup's thoughts:
> 
> 1) You seem to think everything should cater to *where* you hunt with no regard to anyone else.
> 2) You seem to think everything should cater to *what* you hunt with no regard to anyone else.
> ...


CWAC, is like a government agency, put in place to slow a process, and give bias representation or no representation, "Never Hunted"...Not asking anyone to cater, asking for another zone with later dates, so like you, my opinion. People like you that don't care to hunt mallards, hate to tell you BUD, there's more people out there killing mallards then divers. People surely don't travel to nodak and canada to kill divers. Start the season the 3rd weekend I guarantee nothing changes.

You revert back to the population, again, something I have already admitted, I could careless about, as statistics show, the state is consisted of deer hunters. 

Guys like you crack me up...take your shots, because it makes you feel so great...Selective hearing and feel that only your opinion matters...But yet every time you circle so we can get back to what I have stated in previous threads. Again, back to the bay please, leave the inland mallard crushers alone...Yer a joke


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

TSS Caddis said:


> Here are the problems I have with your and Bellyup's thoughts:
> 
> 1) You seem to think everything should cater to *where* you hunt with no regard to anyone else.
> 2) You seem to think everything should cater to *what* you hunt with no regard to anyone else.
> ...


Caddis,

If you recall, there was a ton of discussion on this site alone for a 4th zone. This addressed the very issue you take umbrage with. You See, we DID think of the majority, and tried to cater to what they wanted, and create a 4th zone to seperate zone 3. This would have worked, but once again, it was a change that might have made an improvemnt for all concerned parties. A lot of people fear change, ask anyone. But the best leaders embrace change. And to be the best, you have to change before before it becomes reality. It is best to be pre-emptive than to be re-active. So, over the last several years, something has been proposed to CWAC to present to the DNR to present to the NRC that would benefit all of us and be a better representation of the diverse conditions and bird pattern movements MI's third zone has. I even offered up a creative out of the box thought (as many say including the SKid we need) to put Saginaw bay into its own zone as it is claimed to hold the vast majority of waterfowlers in the state. I thought that would have been an awesome thing for them. Nobody here thought it was that great of an idea, but this has really picked up some support when I presented it to others. You see, not everything I do for waterfowling is posted on this site...:coolgleam


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## pinman (Feb 2, 2012)

Bellyup said:


> Caddis,
> 
> If you recall, there was a ton of discussion on this site alone for a 4th zone. This addressed the very issue you take umbrage with. You See, we DID think of the majority, and tried to cater to what they wanted, and create a 4th zone to seperate zone 3. This would have worked, but once again, it was a change that might have made an improvemnt for all concerned parties. A lot of people fear change, ask anyone. But the best leaders embrace change. And to be the best, you have to change before before it becomes reality. It is best to be pre-emptive than to be re-active. So, over the last several years, something has been proposed to CWAC to present to the DNR to present to the NRC that would benefit all of us and be a better representation of the diverse conditions and bird pattern movements MI's third zone has. I even offered up a creative out of the box thought (as many say including the SKid we need) to put Saginaw bay into its own zone as it is claimed to hold the vast majority of waterfowlers in the state. I thought that would have been an awesome thing for them. Nobody here thought it was that great of an idea, but this has really picked up some support when I presented it to others. You see, not everything I do for waterfowling is posted on this site...:coolgleam


But you continue to ignore the biggest concern with the 4th zone, you lose the split and that becomes a disaster nobody wants to touch if we get restrictive season. How would this be addressed? And remember you lock in to the fourth zone with no split for 5 years i believe.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

pinman said:


> But you continue to ignore the biggest concern with the 4th zone, you lose the split and that becomes a disaster nobody wants to touch if we get restrictive season. How would this be addressed? And remember you lock in to the fourth zone with no split for 5 years i believe.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good question. If we have 4 zones and we have a restrictive season we take what is given to us and be happy with it. We should NOT exploit the resource if we are mandated to 30 days. This means we should regulate pressure. All bets are off once we get restrictions. The good thing about 4 zones, we can still open up 4 different times in the entire state. And we would STILL have the ability to open them anytime within the federal framework, which runs through the month of January and starts mid Sept. Someone can correct me if I am mistaken on this Fed Framework. If we had 4 zones, we can utilize the Fed Framework, instead of fighting it. UP Opens 2nd or 3rd weekend in Sept based on what they want, Middle opens oct 1 if they want, Zone 3 opens same as mid or a weekend later if the wish. Zone 4 could open thrid or fourth weekend in Oct depedning on what the majority wants in each respective zone. How is that being restrictive ? Pick the best 30 days or the best 45 days that you can in the zones. 

I will tell you one thing, I totally agree with you on taking up the fight with the Feds on getting more openess within the framework, I totally would be in on that if you want help.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

pinman said:


> .....Plus you could balance the splits throughout the zones.


Losing the split being the largest reason why a 4th zone proposal failed, IMHO of course. The Federal Framework didn't allow 4 zones and a split. Another option that I don't remember being discussed at all would have been 2 zones with 2 splits, which was also allowed in the Federal Framework. Moving forward, if the Federal Framework doesn't change, we should entertain the idea of 2 zones with 2 splits if we think restrictive seasons are in our future. Just a thought.

The Federal Framework ruling is 75 FR 58250, just in case anyone is interested.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

SBE II said:


> Show your face please...Done yet?


Nice name tag. Let me know where you got yours.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

field-n-feathers said:


> Losing the split being the largest reason why a 4th zone proposal failed, IMHO of course. The Federal Framework didn't allow 4 zones and a split. Another option that I don't remember being discussed at all would have been 2 zones with 2 splits, which was also allowed in the Federal Framework. Moving forward, if the Federal Framework doesn't change, we should entertain the idea of 2 zones with 2 splits if we think restrictive seasons are in our future. Just a thought.
> 
> The Federal Framework ruling is 75 FR 58250, just in case anyone is interested.


Interesting thought Jim. Unfortunately I don't think the Illinois DNR would ever allow it.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

TSS Caddis said:


> No, you pushed a 4th zone as a way to get what you wanted.
> 
> To be honest, your an enigma. You are so passionate about needing to go later, yet in what you consider prime time(the split) you killed 2 ducks. You mean to tell me you can't kill 2 ducks on a weekend in Oct?


If you look around my posts from the past you will see I have said that during Oct and Nov, excluding opening weekend and possibly the second weekend, if I get to kill one duck a day, it is a good hunt. I simply don't access to some good spots. I travel the state to the mid zone and since I can't scout it proper, as many here insist is needed, I am lucky to get a couple here and there. When birds show up in numbers here, it has always been around the last weekend in Nov through Dec. Some call it a migration, some call it a concentration from freeze up in other zones. Whatever it is, I can now get more than the occasional bird. I had a terrible year this year, yes. I hunted every weekend and holiday. I think my total was around 30 including ducks and geese. The chance to shoot was simply not there until later in the season, where I limited on mallards two days in a row, or rathe me and my nephew combined pulled a one man limit. I counted the last weekend in the season as our best hunt. Ducks decoyed, I could call them, and we had shot chances well within 20 yards. It was the most fun we can have duck hunting. It is what keeps me coming back year after year. That excitement, that thrilling dry mouth moment when you know they are coming to you. Are you seriously finding fault with that ? If you are you need to have your head examined. I am scared to go out on the big water like you do. I don't have the skill set I feel is needed to be safe. And I really don't like eating most divers. I do if I get them but I prefer eating teal, wood ducks, mallards and then most puddlers. I have the same passion as you do on your diver hunting. If you would look past what ever is bothering you you could see we are a lot alike in passion. Your pocket book is obviously larger than mine, you make that clear often in the way you word some posts, and I am certain you are smarter than I am, you make that clear with your posts as well. What I don't understand is the lack of understanding you have regarding people and you lack of people skills. 

I was seriously trying to have a conversation with you regarding your post to me, I tried to be civil. Honestly I did. I pointed out some things that spoke to your concerns. You counter by attacking me personally. I fail to see where you are the bigger person here, but I am sure you can find a way. If you want to debate fine with me. But don't continue to preach that all I want is for me me me me. I am trying to get the best out of when the birds are around here, and not take everything away from the rest. There has to be a way. You fail to see that for some reason. 

And maybe this will help. My idea of a ton of birds is around a 1000 mallards. It may not sound like much to some, but around here, that is a TON of birds.


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