# Whitetail Boot Camp



## waltjmi (Feb 1, 2008)

Has anyone attended the Whitetail Boot Camp that is two days long
put on in Coldwater, MI., by Tony Lapratt? I would like any feedback on this boot camp before I put down my hard earned mony. He does say it has a money back quarantee. Anyone care to comment with experience on having attended.


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## Due51 (Oct 26, 2005)

Lots of people on here are disciples of Tony.

Welcome to the site.

Do a search on LaPratt and you'll have a day's worth of reading on your hands.


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## chevyjam2001 (Feb 14, 2002)

I have heard nothing but good things. I hope it is true because I will be attending in a couple of weeks on the 16-17. He is normally discussed in the whitetail habitiat sub-forum.


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## oldguy (Dec 16, 2004)

You won't be disappointed. Well worth the money IMHO.


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## waltjmi (Feb 1, 2008)

Thanks for the few replys, I was hoping to get info from someone who actually has attended. I am undecided to attend the 2 day boot camp
which would run about $1000.00 with camp tution, gasoline, food and overnite lodging or just to book Tony to come to our property. I have read some forum information that mentions there is great promise in what is presented, but to know where and how to apply it to your own properity is the real question. I sure wish I could afford both options but cannot.


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## oldguy (Dec 16, 2004)

I attended Tony's boot camp AND had him out to the property. No regrets on either, again, money well spent. If funds are limited, I'd suggest attending the boot camp over a land evaluation (and believe Tony would tell you the same thing). 

Bring an aerial map of your land and ask Tony to take a look at it. He did this for anyone who asked at the bootcamp I attended.


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## swampstand (Feb 7, 2005)

Seems like it would be so much more effective having him walk the property and see first hand what you are dealing with, maps can only tell so much. 

He should be able to teach you what he teaches at his boot camp right there at your property, I would think. And it would be just you to focus on. 

Am I far off on this??????? I'm just surprised that someone said that if you can only afford one, go with the boot camp.

Please educate me why?


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

swampstand said:


> Am I far off on this??????? I'm just surprised that someone said that if you can only afford one, go with the boot camp.
> 
> Please educate me why?



I know nothing about the usual and customary charges for a deer farmer to visit but....

I would think that a visit would be alot more money than attending a couple day seminar.

Thats why I usually go to a Bruce Springsteen Concert vs. having him perform in my back yard.

Just a guess!?!


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## oldguy (Dec 16, 2004)

First, let me say, I have zero connection with Tony's group other than being a past customer.

The amount of information presented at Tony's boot camp is impressive, and it's done over two full days. Part of the course is walking properties, to see how the classroom ideas are implemented. It's fairly easy from that point to apply the same principles to your own property, again, using the information presented in the classroom.

While I agree, walking a property with a knowledgeable consultant is the most effective way to improve a specific property, the issue here seems to be how to get the most benefit from a stretched dollar. The property I had Tony look at was out of state, so I'm sure that factored into the cost, but regardless, the one day site vist cost me 3X what the two day boot camp did. Was it worth it? Yes, personally I believe so. But I definitely learned more at the bootcamp than I did on the site visit. 

My suggestion regarding bringing an aerial map was related to the original question about knowing where to apply what you learn in class. With a good aerial and knowledge of prevailing winds, Tony can give you a pretty good idea what your parcel will benefit from, and where to start.

Again, just my .02. Not trying to talk you out of a walk through by any means. The question was which of the two was a better buy for the money. My opinion, for what that's worth, is that the bootcamp is the way to go if you can't afford both. 

Either way, I guarantee you'll learn more than you think you will.


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## rmw (Feb 21, 2006)

I had him to the property and then went to the boot camp . I'd do it again


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## 9pointer (Dec 8, 2007)

Thanks for the info!


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## hunterrep (Aug 10, 2005)

Oldguys's advice is right on the money. If you have to choose, go to the bootcamp and take very good notes, maybe even a tape recorder. (Not to tape Tony but to record notes to yourself.) If you pay VERY GOOD attention, you can apply the principles to your land. Also when you go back to your property, before you do any work, re-read the great information that NorthJeff has so generously shared on this site and in his articles. Both of these guys are very good at what they do and by studying both, you will be able to do the right things from the start. That being said, there is nothing like a visit from either of these guys to get you started off right.


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## waltjmi (Feb 1, 2008)

Old Guy, since your information from boot camp and Tony's visit to your property, have you really seen promised results ?. Do you see more deer,
(Larger Bucks) on the days after firearm season begins and the most(Large Bucks) the second week ? Have you shot any monsters yet ? One thing I saw about Tony's information is his property has full irrigation on all the food plots, making them choice for deer to come running to. I plan to attend one of his seminars this coming weekend at the Deer/Turkey
Spectacular in Lansing, MI. I do know about 5-6 deer preserve owners in Michigan and they have NOT attended boot camp or had Tony out to their preserves. They do not say anything bad about him, I guess since they have a captive herd they could care less. 
Thanks for the responses.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

Here's another thing to think about before you do it: Would it help me where I'm at today?

Example: I live in the EUP. If I had 80 acres (or 640 at that) of choice land either in the big woods or ag areas of the area I live in...Lapratt or anybody else wouldn't help me one bit. Other factors come into play before a 3 1/2 year old 125" buck even comes close to stepping foot on a property around here. Sure it happens, but a lot less than an 80 say in WI.

Now, if you have a decent chunk of PRIME land in the SLP that holds more than 1-3 1/2 year old per square mile, it may be worth it. It has to currently hold them though or at least the factors have to be there for them to be able to age a bit.

The reason I'm saying this is due to the fact that most of the areas near me may only hold one 125" buck per 5+ square miles and the factors are not there to allow for an increased number of 125's in the future no matter what one does currently.

Ask NorthJeff if he's shot a 125" buck on his Michigan (U.P.) land in the past 5 years.


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## waltjmi (Feb 1, 2008)

*Brovo*, you have said it all- We have great property around central west
michigan, but VERY few hunters practice QDM, except us. My son and I passed up at least 15-18 legal bucks this past hunting season because they were to small and young. Only one buck presented its self, a nice maybe 125-130 class eight point, but it was Nov. 10, I was bow hunting and it was a good 100 + yards away. The factor of what is available in the area means alot. We hunt 120 acres of very prime woodland, just the 2 of us. We have
used 2 camera set ups year round and don't see any large bucks


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## oldguy (Dec 16, 2004)

*"Old Guy, since your information from boot camp and Tony's visit to your property, have you really seen promised results ?. Do you see more deer, (Larger Bucks) on the days after firearm season begins and the most(Large Bucks) the second week ? Have you shot any monsters yet ? One thing I saw about Tony's information is his property has full irrigation on all the food plots, making them choice for deer to come running to."* 



Regarding shooting monsters? Ironically, my biggest buck this year was taken on our UP property. (140 class eleven point) But yes, I got the results I expected from Tony's work. 

My issue on our Illinois property (where Tony came out) is more neighbor related than deer related. We have plenty of nice bucks running through, and we do well most every year on 130-140 class deer......but, I want to do better.

We have heavy hunting pressure surrounding us. I wanted to increase the likelihood that the couple bruisers we have running around wouldn't get popped the minute they crossed the property line......so you asked me if I saw the promised results??? Well, those big boys are still alive as of yesterday. Would they have made it without Tony's help??...... maybe......maybe not...... Guess I felt it was worth the money to increase the odds a bit. With a little luck, next year those bucks will be pushing 170 or better, and just maybe I'll get an opportunity to take one.

Where I really think Tony's ideas help out most is in attracting yearling bucks who have been displaced to take up residence on your property. The idea being, that given a few years, you'll end up with some mature animals calling your property home. I can tell you without question that this year was the first time I've seen so many yearling bucks on the property. I watched 11, yes 11 bucks file out of a three acre timber patch that Tony and Chris put the majority of their work into. I've owned that parcel nine years now and never saw that before.......was it coincidence?? I guess it could have been, but again, whether it was because of Tony or good old serendipity, my goals for the property last year were accomplished.

Funny you mentioned the irrigation system at Tony's place. After everything I took in at Boot camp, the one question I really wanted answered was how he managed to fly the idea for that pump past his wife:lol: 

Good luck whatever you decide.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

Old guy, your attitude and post are sweet music. You bring up points seldom thought of. Yes the yearling buck that has dispersed is looking for a home, while the older guys in the most part have already established their priorities. Yet with a luscious buck bed made by Tony, Chris or you, it is possible to pull him over. I had a similar experience last year as you did. Tony has been to my 160 acres in 1995 and for the last three years and last hunting season I counted 32 differant bucks. I have owned this land since 1974 and this has never happened before. It just gets better each and every year and thanks to Tony and his uncanny talent. Go back to my youth of 1952, my first year of deer hunting. It took my 12th year of deer hunting on public lands before I saw a buck in the woods. Contrast that to last seasons experience. I keep very accurate records of bucks I observed. If I cannot write down all necessary details of individual bucks observed, I list them as unknown.


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## swampstand (Feb 7, 2005)

Ed Spin 04,

Are you a food plot book book author? Seems you call name is familiar. Just curious?


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## waltjmi (Feb 1, 2008)

We have yearling bucks on our property, but are they going to stay! Oldguy, you are correct about the dispersal of yearling bucks, but are our
yearlings ones that have not yet been chased out of the area, or ones that have filtered in ? We have not bent over and tied saplings yet, as I have just learned about this technique or we have not hinge cut larger trees yet, to create brush areas, because I have also just learned about this. But, we are planning to as soon as possible to do these for bedding cover QDM has some excellent information on their website as well. I quess everyone has been into food plots, they are a very key part of the equation the deer need, but to keep the deer on our propeerty, bedding areas are the REAL KEY. Our rato is observed about 20 anterless deer to 1 anterlered deer.
Thanks Edspin04 for your input.


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## oldguy (Dec 16, 2004)

Walt,

If by yearling, we're talking about 1.5 year old bucks, everything I've read to date indicates that a big part of that is up to you (respecting sanctuaries, providing security cover, etc). It doesn't matter if the 1.5 y/o bucks you're seeing were born on (or near) the property, since dispersal has already taken place (if it is going to;..... ie, buck fawns from a now deceased doe will typically not be dispersed, so some of your 1.5 y/o bucks may have been born on the property).

Sounds like you've been doing your homework and have some good information/resources. The hardest part in all of this is having the patience and foresight to see how each piece of the puzzle can/will get you to the end result you had in mind. 

I saw hiring a consultant as another piece of that puzzle. Inspite of my education, I'm old enough to know I don't know everything. I've learned a great deal from members of this forum. Ed Spin, Jeff Sturgis and Bishs come to mind, and MS is where I first learned about Tony. Bottom line, there are many very knowledgeable resources here that you are wise to take advantage of.

Again, best of luck.

Ed......thanks for the kind words......means a lot coming from someone I've learned so much from. (you must have forgotten about my daughter monopolizing the karaoke microphone at your food plot day in '05):lol:


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## buck37 (Aug 8, 2002)

I'm going to Tom Mesnard's (Total Land Management) bootcamp next weekend. I don't know his bootcamps from Tony's or anyone elses for that matter. His is closer to me, I know him, but I'm still septical about what I will learn. I was thinking about going to Tony's last year but didn't. I met Tom through a friend and decided to try his based on the mostly on the proximity, and a little on the lower price. I've also had many discussions with him in the past year. I going with a positive outlook, and I'm sure it will give me a good idea for some more habitat improvements for the properties that I hunt.


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## JSimon (Dec 9, 2007)

buck37 said:


> I'm going to Tom Mesnard's (Total Land Management) bootcamp next weekend. I don't know his bootcamps from Tony's or anyone elses for that matter. His is closer to me, I know him, but I'm still septical about what I will learn. I was thinking about going to Tony's last year but didn't. I met Tom through a friend and decided to try his based on the mostly on the proximity, and a little on the lower price. I've also had many discussions with him in the past year. I going with a positive outlook, and I'm sure it will give me a good idea for some more habitat improvements for the properties that I hunt.


Please post a thread about your thoughts on Tom Mesnard's bootcamp after you go. I have not looked into these bootcamps much, but they sound like something I would be interested in. I'd like to know what you think of this particular bootcamp.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

JSimon said:


> Please post a thread about your thoughts on Tom Mesnard's bootcamp after you go. I have not looked into these bootcamps much, but they sound like something I would be interested in. I'd like to know what you think of this particular bootcamp.


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## dusoc (Jan 1, 2008)

QDMAMAN said:


> The fact that there are endless possitive testimonials about Tony and his services, on this site buy his clients, speaks volumes about his effectiveness in his field, regardless of what you think he should be doing to satisfy your standards.


When I'm looking to contract with someone for services, I want to find out everything I can about them, good and bad. Forinstance, when I research an outfitter for a potential hunt, I'm less concerned with glowing reports from sucessfull hunters than I am with the opinions of hunters that were unsucessful. The problem here is that it seems like people are not allowed to report anything but good things about Tony Lapratt. The fact remains that I know of at least a few people that hired him that are not happy customers. I've also learned that on this forum it's probably not worth it to try to pass agong information or opinions on certain tabo subjects. I'll add Lapratt to the tabo list of baiting, Rompola buck, crossbows, QDM...


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## buck37 (Aug 8, 2002)

> Please post a thread about your thoughts on Tom Mesnard's bootcamp after you go. I have not looked into these bootcamps much, but they sound like something I would be interested in. I'd like to know what you think of this particular bootcamp.


I will do that. I was supposed to do the bootcamp originally on Jan 26, but it was rescheduled. 

I was talking to a friend last week at a wrestling meet. He said that Tom had set up his Dads property the previous year and his Dad shot 2 great bucks last season. I saw my friend's picture on Tom's website and thought he shot the buck in the picture. He said that his Dad had. Anyways, looking forward to the bootcamp. Anytime I can learn something new about deer hunting is a good time. Tom will have a booth at the Deer spectacular this weekend in Lansing.


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## MoneyMan11 (Jan 8, 2004)

I plan to going to the boot camp in the next couple years. Wish it was this year, but will probably be the following. Had Tony out to the property on July 1st. Busted butt from then to mid-Oct implementing the plan. I had all of 3 scrapes on 240 acres the previous year. Quit counting at 50 this year. 1st scrape appeared mid-Sept. in a brassica plot. Saw almost 30 different bucks. The oldest seen on the property probably went 4.5-5.5 (based on body size and finding the sheds of this deer 2 years ago) and was an absolute monster. Saw at dark on the 2nd day and briefly in the morning on the 3rd day. I had 2 buck spar in front of me on one of my plots during the 1st day of rifle season, that was a definite first. 2 evenings of ML, I saw 7 different bucks including a nice 110 class 8 which would have been as nice as anything we have taken in 20 years on the property. We only took 2 bucks this year, but the number we saw on the property by everyone was very impressive. Being the only bowhunter, I got to see this unfold all fall and it has changed everything. Also, it is my belief that the coming years will be much better. Winter is great time to see that much work is left to do. I belive that it will take 3-5 years to get everything done. You need to be prepared to spend many, many hours working very hard. Tony is certainly the real deal.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

*"The problem here is that it seems like people are not allowed to report anything but good things about Tony Lapratt"* 



I second that to a degree...bad PR...it does get annoying to say the least. Many don't even know what's in the boot camp because "people aren't allowed to talk". Sorta like a high profile court case.....but sitting in the jury is the Campbell Soup Kid.


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## xdetroitx (Oct 31, 2007)

I plan on attending one is a few years. But, I would probably pick someone else to come out to my property. Just for some different advice, why pay for the same thing twice. Heck, I have wasted more than $700 on much dumber things.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

Actually, anybody that has used his services and were dissappointed, drop me a PM describing your experience. I'm just curious and I'll keep it off MS Forums.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

I will tell you all this, I will come to your land for WAY CHEAPER prices, but I just dont know A LOT about food plots. BUT I will teach you all you need to know about BIG BUCKS!!!!!!!:coolgleam:yikes::lol:


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

Taken from one of his bullet points.


 "Time Management For Bucks"​
 The heart and soul of the Ultimate Q.D.M. property. If you don't have this working for you on your hunting property a lot of bucks are at your neighbors mercy because they are on your neighbors property during daylight hours. And it's just that simple

I guess my question would be. How does this work in a Co-Op situation? Or if Tony's neighbor hired him, if he would take the job.​


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Hey No Wake, 

Good Question, what if a neighbor asked him to build buck beds on his land??? I bet he would and NOT tell him how to do it. He would say:

"GO to the barber and get as much hair as you can, take some old cans of oil and put it in a circle, and then place the hair all around the cans. This will keep big bucks on your place in daylight hours" 

:lol::lol::lol:


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

> NoWake said:
> 
> 
> > Taken from one of his bullet points.
> ...


NoWake,
When Tony came out for a consult at my neighbors he informed him that he would not work for adjoining property owners without my neighbor's blessing.
As far as Tony's neighbors go...well... *they* aren't very neighborly.
Manipulating a buck's daylight movement is crucial to minimizing his volunerability on properties that don't discriminate.
In our co-op situation we freely share our techniques with participating neighbors, those that think what we're doing is a waste of time are left to suffer the consequences of inferior habitat and uninformed management practices...and trust me, they are.
I liken it to a guy in our neighborhood who farms...or attempts to. He consistantly has poor yields on both corn and soy beans because he doesn't take the time to attend a workshop or inquire of the neighbor who is maximizing yield. "Continuing to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity." A. Einstien

Big T


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## calhoun (Aug 15, 2006)

mich buckmaster said:


> Hey No Wake,
> 
> Good Question, what if a neighbor asked him to build buck beds on his land??? I bet he would and NOT tell him how to do it. He would say:
> 
> ...


I ran into this exact situation, I contacted Tony in 2005 and he had been on one of my neigbors that live across the street from me. He told he would contact him first to see if he would be ok with me hiring him. Luckly i am good freinds with this neighbor, thats where i got Tony's name from. I was suprised he would actually take the time to call this neighbor first before he said he would do it.


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

QDMAMAN said:


> NoWake,
> When Tony came out for a consult at my neighbors he informed him that he would not work for adjoining property owners without my neighbor's blessing.


That's cool.




QDMAMAN said:


> As far as Tony's neighbors go...well... *they* aren't very neighborly.


Can't imagine why. lol




QDMAMAN said:


> Manipulating a buck's daylight movement is crucial to minimizing his volunerability on properties that don't discriminate.
> In our co-op situation we freely share our techniques with participating neighbors, *those that think what we're doing is a waste of time are left to suffer the consequences *of inferior habitat and uninformed management practices...and trust me, they are.


Along with those who don't want to get into a never ending battle of one ups-manship. (is that a word?)





QDMAMAN said:


> I liken it to a guy in our neighborhood who farms...or attempts to. He consistantly has poor yields on both corn and soy beans because he doesn't take the time to attend a workshop or inquire of the neighbor who is maximizing yield. "Continuing to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity." A. Einstien
> 
> Big T


Daddy always told me, "Son if it takes you three times of getting hit in the head to learn, you've got a problem." For most people two times would indicate a problem, but daddy adjusted it seein how I was kinda special and all. :lol:


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## buck37 (Aug 8, 2002)

He would need the neighbors blessing if he's been to his property. I'm sorry but I find that wrong. The neighbor didn't ask me first, or ask me to join him. So because he did it first you might not be able to. Wow


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## dusoc (Jan 1, 2008)

Heres my take on it. I practice QDM and really try hard to get neighbors around my main hunting property to also practice QDM. The last thing in the world Id want to do is to implement a land management plan that would screw my neighbors in any way shape or form. If they are passing up young bucks, I want them to be successful in seeing the fruits of their labor. Im just as happy if a neighbor gets a nice buck as when someone takes one off our property. If your neighbors found out that you are doing things on your property that will hurt their hunting, they might deduce that you are not really all that serious about a cooperative effort towards QDM, but rather just trying to get other people to pass up bucks so you can stockpile more on your land. Now if you have problem neighbors that will never get on board with QDM, I can certainly see the merits of takeing proactive actions, but if you start or contribute to a deer war mentality, then it might do more harm than good with a lot of people. If you have decent neighbors and you want them to get into QDM, then a cooperative land and deer management plan would be much better in my opinion for everyone.


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## calhoun (Aug 15, 2006)

dusoc said:


> Heres my take on it. I practice QDM and really try hard to get neighbors around my main hunting property to also practice QDM. The last thing in the world Id want to do is to implement a land management plan that would screw my neighbors in any way shape or form. If they are passing up young bucks, I want them to be successful in seeing the fruits of their labor. Im just as happy if a neighbor gets a nice buck as when someone takes one off our property. If your neighbors found out that you are doing things on your property that will hurt their hunting, they might deduce that you are not really all that serious about a cooperative effort towards QDM, but rather just trying to get other people to pass up bucks so you can stockpile more on your land. Now if you have problem neighbors that will never get on board with QDM, I can certainly see the merits of takeing proactive actions, but if you start or contribute to a deer war mentality, then it might do more harm than good with a lot of people. If you have decent neighbors and you want them to get into QDM, then a cooperative land and deer management plan would be much better in my opinion for everyone.


I completely agree with you, I think the reason he does this is so when you implement his plan, it will have a dramatic effect on the property. If he does this on a property that is next store to one that already has the plan, the effect may not be as noticable. As for me, I have shared every technique i have learned from him and others with my neighbors. This is the hole idea behind a co-op, work with the neighbor not against.


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## mike hartges (Jun 9, 2003)

"As for me, I have shared every technique I have learned from him and others with my neighbors."

Just curious; doesn't Tony ask all of his students to keep his information confidential?


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## JWHunter (Oct 19, 2007)

waltjmi said:


> Thanks everyone for posting ALL comments. I am
> sure Tony's quarantee is correct, it is in plain view on his website !


I don't have feelings either way for Mr. Lapratt and was just looking over his website out of curiousity and found something I don't think was gone over in this thread.
Here is a link to the page that contains his "guarantee". For those not into web surfing it says 
"Payment is NONREFUNDABLE, However it may be transferred to another date in 2008 schedule."
So basically if you don't like his class you can go to another class for free?


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## JWHunter (Oct 19, 2007)

I forgot to put the link: http://tonysulm.com/WBC_info.htm
Also I was wondering if amount of land played a major role in the effectiveness of his techniques. If I only have 20 acres would something like that be totally pointless?


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

> NoWake said:
> 
> 
> > Along with those who don't want to get into a never ending battle of one ups-manship. (is that a word?)


It really isn't that way. We have offered on several occassions to share what we're doing with one neighbor in particular. We've made suggestions on some things he could do to make his property more deer friendly...and even offer our sweat to impliment the info. 
I'm not trying to shove anything down anybodies throat but on the same hand I'll do everything I can to maximize my properties potential and if I do it correctly I'll reap the rewards regardless of what my neighbors do.
The funny thing is about this one particular neighbor, he has several stands on our common lines and has been caught trespassing on our parcels on more that one occassion. He's obviously envious of what we're doing he's just can't bring himself to admit that it's effective.
He kills deer every year but they're the one who get caught off the reservation from time to time and seldom if ever is it a buck over 2.5 and when it comes to antlerless harvest it's shoot first and figure out what it was later.
We've reached what we call "critical mass" within our co-op and have established an age structure on bucks up to 5.5, that we're aware of, and we continue to increase our doe harvest. What we do is not in any way designed to limit his oportunities, we just have worked hard to maximize ours and we'd LOVE to show him what we know...honest.
Yes 1upsmanship is a word and Iattribute my drain bramage to to many downs without a helmet.:lol:

Big T


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

QDMAMAN said:


> What we do is not in any way designed to limit his oportunities,


It just happens to be a by product right? :lol::lol:

Seriously though, I think probably 99.9% of the co-ops right now do not have any problems with this, but I also think the larger the co-ops get and with more being formed, eventually it's going to become a bigger issue. Then again maybe not.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

QDMAMAN said:


> ...........he just can't bring himself to admit that it's effective.


And therein lies the hole that we have all fallen into from time to time on fish and wildlife managment. Some of us try and even manage to dig ourselves out while others wallow in that pit that only leads to despair....................profound ain't I?........:lol:


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## waltjmi (Feb 1, 2008)

Tony's Boot Camp information simply says that if you pay the camp fee and are unable to make the weekend chosen, you may chose another weekend that has an opening. It DOSEN'T say that if you are not satisfied you take the camp over again. Maybe if you read it over again, after reading this, you will get the information right ?


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## chevyjam2001 (Feb 14, 2002)

waltjmi said:


> Tony's Boot Camp information simply says that if you pay the camp fee and are unable to make the weekend chosen, you may chose another weekend that has an opening. It DOSEN'T say that if you are not satisfied you take the camp over again. Maybe if you read it over again, after reading this, you will get the information right ?


True, but at the bottom of his "boot camp" page it does state 100% satisfaction guaranteed.


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## JWHunter (Oct 19, 2007)

waltjmi said:


> Tony's Boot Camp information simply says that if you pay the camp fee and are unable to make the weekend chosen, you may chose another weekend that has an opening. It DOSEN'T say that if you are not satisfied you take the camp over again. Maybe if you read it over again, after reading this, you will get the information right ?


I did reread the information and nowhere found where it said anything about making up a weekend if you miss or can't make it. However, I did find elsewhere on this page; http://tonysulm.com/Whitetail_Boot_Camp.htm where he does say "...I will personally return your hard earned money. You have my word on it." And later, "100% SATISFACTION GURANTEED". So apparantly he does have a money back gurantee, which is pretty impressive to me. Thanks Walt, hop I got it right this time!


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

I am going to Tony's camp on the 16th and 17th of Feb.

If I like it I will let people know, and I may further use his services. If I don't like it I will let my friends know and not recommend him. It is just like everything else in my life. 

If my plumber says 100% satisfaction guaranteed, I think he is just trying to convey that he intends to do the best job he can and will try to make it up to me with his service if I am not happy, not that he is going to give me every penny back if I don't like the job. I think some people are applying criteria here that they would not in other aspects of their lives. 

Interestingly, I have not heard anything on this thread from anyone who took Tony's class and wasn't satisfied. Maybe I missed something. I have been following comments and talking to people about him for the last couple of years and so far have heard nothing but glowing praise.

If you haven't taken his class and are just speculating that maybe it is not worth the money, then your opinion pretty much seems meaningless to me. My ears are pinned wide open to hear from those who have experienced Tony's class. I expect their are both negatives and positives and I am anxious to hear both from those who actually know what they are talking about.:lol:


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

bioactive said:


> Interestingly, I have not heard anything on this thread from anyone who took Tony's class and wasn't satisfied. Maybe I missed something. I have been following comments and talking to people about him for the last couple of years and so far have heard nothing but glowing praise.


I think that's the whole problem. No one is "allowed" to state the cons or bad mouth him due to an agreement they made while at the camp or through his other services. It sure doesn't help increase his funds, I'll tell you that. As a consumer, I want to know both the pros and cons of... whatever... before I make a decision on whteher to pay up or not. I know there have to be cons out there too. It's just that everyone doesn't want to end up in court or something.

You guys that have been to his bootcamp, did you have to sign an agreement?...or was it just a verbal "honor"?

Funny how people bad mouth... say....Rompola even though they really know nothing about him....people bad mouth Eberhart, David Hale, Fred Trost, Rob Trott, Greg Miller, Stan Potts, Richard P. Smith.......yet no one will bad mouth Lapratt. Seem funny to you? Is he God?


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## waltjmi (Feb 1, 2008)

Uptracker, I hope no one bad mouths FRED TROST, he can't defend himself,
May he rest in peace, Amen.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

I hear ya, but you know it still happens...I've heard it a bit even since his death.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

uptracker said:


> I think that's the whole problem. No one is "allowed" to state the cons or bad mouth him due to an agreement they made while at the camp or through his other services. It sure doesn't help increase his funds, I'll tell you that. As a consumer, I want to know both the pros and cons of... whatever... before I make a decision on whteher to pay up or not. I know there have to be cons out there too. It's just that everyone doesn't want to end up in court or something.
> 
> You guys that have been to his bootcamp, did you have to sign an agreement?...or was it just a verbal "honor"?
> 
> Funny how people bad mouth... say....Rompola even though they really know nothing about him....people bad mouth Eberhart, David Hale, Fred Trost, Rob Trott, Greg Miller, Stan Potts, Richard P. Smith.......yet no one will bad mouth Lapratt. Seem funny to you? Is he God?


I don't get your logic. I do understand very well that people could feel compelled to not reveal proprietary trade secret information that they received in the class. I have had hundreds of people sign non-disclosure agreements in my business over the years. That doesn't keep them from saying whether they got benefit from the experience or not. 

I for one intend to give my honest assessment of the value of the class for me on this forum after attending it. I promise you I will tell Tony I intend to relate how valuable I found the experience on this site. I have zero fear that this will be a problem for him. I also will do so with zero fear that I will be bound by a non-disclosure agreement. In fact, I signed one on Tuesday for a consulting trip I did to San Diego. I later told others that attended the meeting that I did not think the technology was worth investing in. I can give my opinion about them as long as I don't disclose their confidential information. 

And I have yet to see any reticence by folks on this forum to be critical. As you point out, they criticize many well known experts. I suspect that the reason you don't hear a lot of complaints is that most people were happy with the experience. Most of the complaints I hear are from people who have not experienced the class. They seem to want it to be bad without knowing the details. The fact that you do not hear specifics about what they liked and what they didn't may very well relate to the non-disclosure. But so what? Nobody will ever be sued for saying they didn't like a service and would not recommend it. That's just silly.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

I contact agreement pertaining to a consulting trip (etc) in a work place is a long shot from a bunch of blue collar hunters voicing an opinion in public.


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## oldguy (Dec 16, 2004)

*


bioactive said:



I don't get your logic. I do understand very well that people could feel compelled to not reveal proprietary trade secret information that they received in the class. I have had hundreds of people sign non-disclosure agreements in my business over the years. That doesn't keep them from saying whether they got benefit from the experience or not.

Click to expand...

*


bioactive said:


> *I for one intend to give my honest assessment of the value of the class for me on this forum after attending it. I promise you I will tell Tony I intend to relate how valuable I found the experience on this site. I have zero fear that this will be a problem for him. I also will do so with zero fear that I will be bound by a non-disclosure agreement. In fact, I signed one on Tuesday for a consulting trip I did to San Diego. I later told others that attended the meeting that I did not think the technology was worth investing in. I can give my opinion about them as long as I don't disclose their confidential information. *
> 
> *And I have yet to see any reticence by folks on this forum to be critical. As you point out, they criticize many well known experts. I suspect that the reason you don't hear a lot of complaints is that most people were happy with the experience. Most of the complaints I hear are from people who have not experienced the class. They seem to want it to be bad without knowing the details. The fact that you do not hear specifics about what they liked and what they didn't may very well relate to the non-disclosure. But so what? Nobody will ever be sued for saying they didn't like a service and would not recommend it. That's just silly.*





 Very well said.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

sounds like a big game of screw your neighbors.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

uptracker said:


> I contact agreement pertaining to a consulting trip (etc) in a work place is a long shot from a bunch of blue collar hunters voicing an opinion in public.


I can't wait to see you tell a judge that Tony has less protection under the law than a technology company does, because he is in a business that deals with "blue collar" clientèle. By the way, this boot camp is Tony's "workplace." 

I am happy to sign a non-disclosure agreement if he asks me to because I am paying a lot of money to learn from a guy who spent many years learning his trade (like most of us, without compensation during the educational period) and he deserves to have the same protection under the law as I do if I disclose my ideas about how to make a medical product. It is a tremendous amount of work and effort to put together a 2 day course and he deserves to protect the syllabus, handouts, and verbal communications from general distribution without his permission. It is called intellectual property and there are very basic and important protections provided by law, even for "blue collar" people.

If people pay all that money and the course isn't worth it, you can bet word of mouth will result in his business not thriving. As it is, word of mouth seems to be filling up his classes like gang busters. I was really lucky to be able to squeeze in to the one next week, even though I signed up weeks ago.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

bioactive and oldguy:

I'm not sure why you don't understand my logic.

I do understand that...say... a PhD chemical engineer at Pfizer may sign a contract pertaining to a certian make up of a pharmaceutical product...just to save Pfizers **** or keep a "recipe" secret. It's corporate law and there are/can be major consequences to it.

But, like I said, we're talking about hunters in the field that will lose zero if information is leaked.

BTW, I've already had some negative responses about Lapratt and his "system"...they're behind the scenes though.

Oh, and IL is a lot different than MI.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

uptracker said:


> bioactive and oldguy:
> 
> I'm not sure why you don't understand my logic.
> 
> ...


If I give a class in how to make brownies, and you sign a non-disclosure agreement, you are bound to not disclose what I told you as coming from me.

If you already knew everything I said in the class or it is common knowledge, and can prove it, you are free to practice it and tell others about it, BUT YOU CANNOT LEGALLY TELL OTHERS THAT I DO IT THAT WAY! There are many examples in my professional career, where we did things in a particular way. It may be that it is a very common means of doing something, like mixing two chemicals together, but we do not necessarily want our competitors to know we do it in such a mundane way. If you sign a non-compete agreement, and we tell you that we do things in this mundane, everyday way, it is not OK for you to tell others we do it that way. You might face litigation if it is important enough to us. And it sometimes might be. For every invention I have ever written, there are probably 10 trade secrets that we have identified that are things that are not novel but that we want to keep secret, so others don't know we are doing it. There are very powerful legal precedents that protect these "trade secrets."

You say: "...we're talking about hunters in the field that will lose zero if information is leaked.." 

There is a very odd assumption in your comments. You seem to assume that Tony has nothing to teach that is not common knowledge among deer hunters. I think that is highly unlikely, and that he has a wealth of information that is not known to me. Earth to Uptracker: Tony loses if his information is distributed for free! You also give no value to the fact that the information is all brought together in an organized way and supported by field trips and a syllabus and I assume supporting materials. If you think that these are not difficult creations of intellectual property then you are insulting all teachers everywhere. It's hard to do! That is why I intend to spend $695 on the class.


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## bioactive (Oct 30, 2005)

uptracker said:


> Actually, anybody that has used his services and were dissappointed, drop me a PM describing your experience. I'm just curious and I'll keep it off MS Forums.


 I for one would be ticked off to know that one is not allowed to publish a fair-minded assessment of a deer hunting business on this forum. Seems to me that is why forums like this should exist, so that we can exchange information with each other. I want to know if there is a lot of disappointment with Tony's boot camp. Obviously, people should be courteous but is this the case that we cannot publish a negative point of view?

Moderators?

Seems to me I hear all kinds of negative comments about some things, like scent-control clothing for example. I'm glad for that. That's how we learn.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

I'm not talking about it being at a moderators discreation...I'm talking about it being a Tony Lapratt discreation. The people that don't enjoy or think his camps etc. were beneficial can't say so because of the "agreement"...that's why it's not publicly acknowledged on the boards...yet they'll loosen their lips behind the scenes.

The quote above actually gained me quite a bit of info within the past few days. Pro's and Con's!


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