# Wolf Delisting



## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

DirtySteve said:


> I imagine having more money all the time......doesn't get me too far.
> 
> If you are talking about the wolf battle last year they quit once they won. They got the bill passed that allows them make the decisions to have a season. The public vote that came after the fact is useless.


The act might of passed. But that didn't mean MUCC won. As for the vote the pro wolf wackos showed they have the support to close anything down they want and will do it sooner or later from their lies and propaganda of cute puppies and starving pets. So yes hopefully some other hunting organizations will step up to challenge HSUS.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> The act might of passed. But that didn't mean MUCC won. As for the vote the pro wolf wackos showed they have the support to close anything down they want and will do it sooner or later from their lies and propaganda of cute puppies and starving pets. So yes hopefully some other hunting organizations will step up to challenge HSUS.



I get what you mean. The battle will go on for a long time and I understand that. I guess my point is that I felt the mucc did a good job of staying one step ahead of the game last yr. I don't feel the need to be as critical as you do.


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## Kelsey1 (Dec 16, 2005)

Keep Wolves Protected!


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Kelsey1 said:


> Keep Wolves Protected!


I think this is what you meant to say. 
Help preserve wolves take them to the taxidermist.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

U of M Fan said:


> If they were to ever transfer wolves to the lower, I could only hope that they would start to let them loose in your back yard. Maybe they could dress them up for you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


Wolves are in the lower. My guess the population is 20 or less throughout the lower but a few are there. I had the opportunity to see one about a mile south of Mill Creek in November 2013. It was frozen in the headlights of the Jeep about 50 feet away. I was at a dead stop so was the wolf, I have no doubt that this animal was a wolf. It will take years before the population in the NLP gets to the point where there would be a need for them to move south. I think the lunger will be safe for awhile. Who knows a federal judge may order the USFWS to trap and relocate some of them.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Kelsey1 said:


> Keep Wolves Protected!


Go away, you don't belong here.

Here is where yo belong


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Kelsey1 said:


> Keep Wolves Protected!


If you want them protected then you will want them managed. Management of any animal population requires hunting and/or trapping. If their population gets too high and the population of their prey gets too low then you run into problems. Those problems could be disease, conflict with humans, or they will kill each other off. No matter how you look at it the population of wolves is only going to reach a certain number then it will be reduced by the factors that I have just mentioned. Go ahead please explain how you want to manage wolves and keep them protected. How many wolves do you want to roam the UP? Besides being an activist what are you doing to protect wolves?


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Kelsey1 said:


> Keep Wolves Protected!


I love the input from people who live below the bridge.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

DirtySteve said:


> I get what you mean. The battle will go on for a long time and I understand that. I guess my point is that I felt the mucc did a good job of staying one step ahead of the game last yr. I don't feel the need to be as critical as you do.


The MUCC and NRC are working hard to get the hunting and /or trapping season reestablished as a management tool


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Robert Holmes said:


> I love the input from people who live below the bridge.


Look at his/hers previous post history. All for the disruption of the Wisconsin wolf hunt. After looking at Kelseys previous post we have a wolf lover that fishes.


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## Jager Pro (Nov 8, 2013)

multibeard said:


> Look at his/hers previous post history. All for the disruption of the Wisconsin wolf hunt. After looking at Kelseys previous post we have a wolf lover that fishes.


This must be one of the "hunters" that the HSUS claims is against wolf hunting. :lol:


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Robert Holmes said:


> If you want them protected then you will want them managed. Management of any animal population requires hunting and/or trapping. If their population gets too high and the population of their prey gets too low then you run into problems. Those problems could be disease, conflict with humans, or they will kill each other off. No matter how you look at it the population of wolves is only going to reach a certain number then it will be reduced by the factors that I have just mentioned. Go ahead please explain how you want to manage wolves and keep them protected. How many wolves do you want to roam the UP? Besides being an activist what are you doing to protect wolves?


They don't do anything for the wolves Rob. They only troll on the computers. Not one of these wolf dreamers have ever offered to help someone with that has wolf problems. They're too busy disrupting hunting and trapping pages and making more worthless online petitions.


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## Kelsey1 (Dec 16, 2005)

multibeard said:


> Look at his/hers previous post history. All for the disruption of the Wisconsin wolf hunt. After looking at Kelseys previous post we have a wolf lover that fishes.





WAUB-MUKWA said:


> They don't do anything for the wolves Rob. They only troll on the computers. Not one of these wolf dreamers have ever offered to help someone with that has wolf problems. They're too busy disrupting hunting and trapping pages and making more worthless online petitions.


I hunt deer, used to hunt pheasant when there was some...Firm believer in the "you kill it u eat it" mentality. Phony outdoorsman NOT! On the river over a 100 days a year.

"Problem Wolves" if u disect the numbers are rare. Maybe you yoopers have more accurate info than the DNR. Seems most of the reported livestock attacks have been from those abusing the reimbursement system...The "Protect the wolves" group should not be dismissed as anti-hunting, I am not and have talked to many others that are not "antis" as well.

We have in place a methodology to deal with problem wolves and killing them is one of them. Want to shoot something for it's pelt...shoot all the Yotes you want...I do! The wolf is a majestic preditor and we should all be proud that the sportsman of this state recognize the privilidge we enjoy of sighting one of these animals during our days in the woods. My 2 cents!


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## Kelsey1 (Dec 16, 2005)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> They don't do anything for the wolves Rob. They only troll on the computers. Not one of these wolf dreamers have ever offered to help someone with that has wolf problems. They're too busy disrupting hunting and trapping pages and making more worthless online petitions.


Can I use my .308 Savage sporting Leupold glass? I have NO PROBLEM with killing a problem wolf, bear or Yote. Don't group all of us Wolf lovers together, I originally went to college to become a fish and wildlife officer...couldnt afford the pay cut.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Kelsey1 said:


> I hunt deer, used to hunt pheasant when there was some...Firm believer in the "you kill it u eat it" mentality. Phony outdoorsman NOT! On the river over a 100 days a year.
> 
> "Problem Wolves" if u disect the numbers are rare. Maybe you yoopers have more accurate info than the DNR. Seems most of the reported livestock attacks have been from those abusing the reimbursement system...The "Protect the wolves" group should not be dismissed as anti-hunting, I am not and have talked to many others that are not "antis" as well.
> 
> We have in place a methodology to deal with problem wolves and killing them is one of them. Want to shoot something for it's pelt...shoot all the Yotes you want...I do! The wolf is a majestic preditor and we should all be proud that the sportsman of this state recognize the privilidge we enjoy of sighting one of these animals during our days in the woods. My 2 cents!


"Protecting" the wolves, "intellegently managing" the wolves, and "kill them all" are very different. A hunting season could check numbers, deal with problem wolves, and give a small boost economically to the up. We have to stop the "kill them all" talk and start sounding like intelligent people. 
If and when a season opens up again there should be an outlet through the DNR for land owners to offer their property to those with tags if they have problem wolves, and trapping should be allowed. 
Let's stop the big bad wolf fairy-tale crap, and treat this like any other game species to be controlled. 
My two cents. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Kelsey1 (Dec 16, 2005)

Hard to believe that 750 wolves cause terror and distuction in the UP. Hell I snowmobile on avg 3000 miles a year in the UP and have yet to see anything but tracks. I spend 1/2 of those miles off trail so you would think if we have reached the eco-limit more would be seen. Overpopulation of deer a much bigger problem IMHO...don't hear much railing on that.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Kelsey1 said:


> I hunt deer, used to hunt pheasant when there was some...Firm believer in the "you kill it u eat it" mentality. Phony outdoorsman NOT! On the river over a 100 days a year.
> 
> "Problem Wolves" if u disect the numbers are rare. Maybe you yoopers have more accurate info than the DNR. Seems most of the reported livestock attacks have been from those abusing the reimbursement system...The "Protect the wolves" group should not be dismissed as anti-hunting, I am not and have talked to many others that are not "antis" as well.
> 
> We have in place a methodology to deal with problem wolves and killing them is one of them. Want to shoot something for it's pelt...shoot all the Yotes you want...I do! The wolf is a majestic preditor and we should all be proud that the sportsman of this state recognize the privilidge we enjoy of sighting one of these animals during our days in the woods. My 2 cents!


The biologists called for a wolf hunt when the population reached a certain number (I don't remember that off hand). It's been years since that number has been reached and only one hunt that didn't even put a dent in the population.

Will you say, "what a beautiful and majestic creature that is mauling my child, dog, wife, etc.?"

Having talked with several residents of the U.P., I didn't find one that was happy to have the wolves there. Maybe they should be in your back yard?


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## jasonmeekhof (Jan 21, 2012)

Kelsey1 said:


> Hard to believe that 750 wolves cause terror and distuction in the UP. Hell I snowmobile on avg 3000 miles a year in the UP and have yet to see anything but tracks. I spend 1/2 of those miles off trail so you would think if we have reached the eco-limit more would be seen. Overpopulation of deer a much bigger problem IMHO...don't hear much railing on that.


Kelsey I appreciate your love of wolves they are magnificent creatures. They are not more magnificent than any other however, they are all important and all need to be kept at sustainable levels. Wildlife in North America is held in the public trust for perpetuity. That is the North American conservation model. We have decided as a people to maintain sustainable populations of everything. To let one species exist unchecked detrimentally effects all others in the same environment. Wolves have a home range of 50 to 1000 square miles even on the low end of 50 you are still looking at 35000 square miles and the upper peninsula is only 16000 square miles and that's not removing the square mileage of populated areas. I applaud your belief in hunting for food but that isn't why your allowed to hunt. The north American model requires control of animal populations. (There is no possible way to refute the this model it has proven itself as the most effective model.) This control could be done by the government at great cost, however we use hunters who are willing to pay for the ability to do it. You and I no matter our personal reasoning are just part of the tool kit of wildlife managers. We are essentially the hammer in there bag. I detest the kill them all mentality just as much as I detest the protect them all mentality. Populations must be kept in check to ensure long term viability of all species within a given environment. Please do not be distracted by charismatic mega fauna and focus on the whole ecosystem. Should we have wolves? Emphatically, yes. Does their population need to be controlled just as we control the populations of deer and other species? Also emphatically, yes. I understand that the idea of a wolf being killed is upsetting but it is no worse or better than a deer, a bear or any other species being killed. Everything dies, that's the only inescapable truth on this planet, how it dies in the grand scheme doesn't really make a difference. It might as well happen with the dollars going to conservation.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

jasonmeekhof said:


> I understand that the idea of a wolf being killed is upsetting but it is no worse or better than a deer, a bear or any other species being killed. Everything dies, that's the only inescapable truth on this planet, how it dies in the grand scheme doesn't really make a difference. It might as well happen with the dollars going to conservation.


If man doesn't keep the animal numbers in check, then mother nature will. Man uses quick methods to dispatch animals. Mother nature uses, mange, parvo and a host of other diseases as well as starvation, all are less than quick methods.

Eventually the numbers will be reduced.


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

Just put that 308 and 243 back in the safe. Time to get out the MB-750's with some beaver bait.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Kelsey1 said:


> Hard to believe that 750 wolves cause terror and distuction in the UP. Hell I snowmobile on avg 3000 miles a year in the UP and have yet to see anything but tracks. I spend 1/2 of those miles off trail so you would think if we have reached the eco-limit more would be seen. Overpopulation of deer a much bigger problem IMHO...don't hear much railing on that.



Your example of snowmobiling is a very poor argument to say the least. The UP has far more fox coyotes and bobcat than wolves......how many of those did you see riding 50 miles an hr on a sled? I too ride 3k miles a season. I can tell you how many coyotes I saw last yr in the UP. It was 1.....crossed the road in frt of the truck while I was pulling my trailer home from houghton.

I have been on record arguing that wolves are not the biggest issue with the UP deer heard and I still believe that......however whatever the cause the deer herd is now down to roughly 100k deer. If the wolf population is 750 the avg wolf is predicted to eat about 20 deer a yr. That is 15k or 15% of the deer left. Right now the herd can't handle that.

The USFWS says that the up should be able to hold a min 200 wolves to come off the endangered list. I don't have the numbers in front of me for the max but it is far less than 750. 750 seems like a small number but let's put it in perspective. The UP is 16000 sq miles. Let's say half of that land can accommodate a healthy wolf population and live without human conflict (a really generous number). That leaves 8K sq miles. The avg pack patrols and hunts 75sq miles. The math equals about 100 packs for a maximum... 6 wolves to a pack you would have maxed out at 600. 

I am pretty sure the USFWS states less than 600 is the max. My numbers are completely hypothetical but i beleive it puts things into perspective to show 750 could be really high.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Kelsey1 said:


> Hard to believe that 750 wolves cause terror and distuction in the UP. Hell I snowmobile on avg 3000 miles a year in the UP and have yet to see anything but tracks. I spend 1/2 of those miles off trail so you would think if we have reached the eco-limit more would be seen. Overpopulation of deer a much bigger problem IMHO...don't hear much railing on that.


I think I saw a gang banger once when I was driving thru Flint but I couldn't be too sure. I was going 55MPH. Quit with the KMWP koolaid follow in line bs.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

My 2 cents is that wolves are a top predator. Since their population has grown for years uncontrolled they have cost the economy of the UP millions of dollars. The HSUS people could care less what wolves have cost the residents of the UP. Most of them don't have wolves living in their backyard. If it was not for television most would not know what a wolf looks like. If trapping and hunting is not allowed they will kill each other, die of mange or other disease, or human conflict will result in many of them dying off. Hunting and trapping is a humane way of trimming the excess. What is the wolf carrying capacity in the UP? I would say it is somewhere around 600 animals and most biologists would probably agree. If their numbers get too high and their prey gets too low they are not going to start eating grass. They will kill whatever they can to survive. That might be livestock, someones pet dog, or a human. I can tell you from my own experiences that wolves are not afraid of humans because they are not hunted.Wolves will always be protected to some extent.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Kelsey1 said:


> Hard to believe that 750 wolves cause terror and distuction in the UP. Hell I snowmobile on avg 3000 miles a year in the UP and have yet to see anything but tracks. I spend 1/2 of those miles off trail so you would think if we have reached the eco-limit more would be seen. Overpopulation of deer a much bigger problem IMHO...don't hear much railing on that.


Just curious where is there an over population of deer where wolves are present? The deer population is low enough to take killing does off the table for the next few years in nearly the entire UP. One of the proposals the DNR put in front of the NRC was the elimination of deer season in the UP. Wolves need to be brought down to sustainable levels even if that means exporting 400 wolves to the LP which is the suggested number per the wolf plan.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

http://data:image/png;base64,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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

You are not going to see too many wolves riding around in the woods on a snowmobile. They make too much noise.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

They like to sleep on snowmobiles


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## Josh R (Dec 4, 2010)

Kelsey1 said:


> I hunt deer, used to hunt pheasant when there was some...


Just need to know where to look, plenty of them out there!


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Kelsey1 said:


> I hunt deer, used to hunt pheasant when there was some...Firm believer in the "you kill it u eat it" mentality. Phony outdoorsman NOT! On the river over a 100 days a year.
> 
> "Problem Wolves" if u disect the numbers are rare. Maybe you yoopers have more accurate info than the DNR. Seems most of the reported livestock attacks have been from those abusing the reimbursement system...The "Protect the wolves" group should not be dismissed as anti-hunting, I am not and have talked to many others that are not "antis" as well.
> 
> We have in place a methodology to deal with problem wolves and killing them is one of them. Want to shoot something for it's pelt...shoot all the Yotes you want...I do! The wolf is a majestic preditor and we should all be proud that the sportsman of this state recognize the privilidge we enjoy of sighting one of these animals during our days in the woods. My 2 cents!


If you were a sportsman then you would know that the 'eat what you kill' mentality sometimes involves killing a species that you don't eat. Your so called 100 day a year sports-fishers leave carp carcasses and other 'garbage fish' all over the place because they don't eat them. And it is fact that 50% of fishermen are anti hunting. As far as farms abusing the reimbursement system having visited and predator hunted just about all of them with wolf kills your info from KMWP or that Grand Rapids journalist are way off. The DNR made sure they used sound science in the last wolf hunt. Those wolves that were killed without a doubt were responsible for killing animals. In 2005 the DNR and APHIS trappers counted close to a couple hundred wolves in Gogebic county. If one wolf can roam 25-50 miles each day and you have 150 of them within a 60x 25 mile wide county you are going to have problems. You can't differentiate between kill all the yotes you see and but never a wolf.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

How do people figure that the average adult wolf kills 20 deer per year? It seems to be a number that the DNR or National Geographic uses or something. Do they not include the deer that wolves kill and don't eat? I am guessing that this is called a "thrill kill". It does happen. My son in laws father cuts trees for a living and they find dead deer every winter that are hamstrung and have the neck torn out of them. Wolf tracks all around them and they are uneaten. The adult wolf might consume 20 deer per year but it more than likely kills double that. Yes the UP is in serious trouble with its deer population. The DNR is trying to do some deer management but now it is a little late in the game.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> How do people figure that the average adult wolf kills 20 deer per year? It seems to be a number that the DNR or National Geographic uses or something. Do they not include the deer that wolves kill and don't eat? I am guessing that this is called a "thrill kill". It does happen. My son in laws father cuts trees for a living and they find dead deer every winter that are hamstrung and have the neck torn out of them. Wolf tracks all around them and they are uneaten. The adult wolf might consume 20 deer per year but it more than likely kills double that. Yes the UP is in serious trouble with its deer population. The DNR is trying to do some deer management but now it is a little late in the game.


This is the kind of drivel we have to stop spewing in order to sound more intelligent. 
The MDNR knows more about wolf populations and behavior than you, Robert!!!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Kelsey, You say you fish. I seem to remember PETA trying to get fish called some stupid name and getting them protected. You better watch out where you put your allegiances


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Robert Holmes said:


> How do people figure that the average adult wolf kills 20 deer per year? It seems to be a number that the DNR or National Geographic uses or something. Do they not include the deer that wolves kill and don't eat? I am guessing that this is called a "thrill kill". It does happen. My son in laws father cuts trees for a living and they find dead deer every winter that are hamstrung and have the neck torn out of them. Wolf tracks all around them and they are uneaten. The adult wolf might consume 20 deer per year but it more than likely kills double that. Yes the UP is in serious trouble with its deer population. The DNR is trying to do some deer management but now it is a little late in the game.



The studies done in Wisconsin and Minnesota both showed an avg of 18-22 deer per yr. That is what i am referencing. There are explanations for you seeing a deer killed and not eaten. Generally only certain wolves in the pack hunt. They eat in a pecking order eating one to 2 at a time. They also gorge and do not eat for days afterwards. It may be that those deer were killed out of convenience at the time.....with the intent to come back later. There are wolves in the pack that do not hunt. They stay behind and wait for their turn to eat after the hunt is over. Probably the reason Most people say michigan Wolves don't have established packs. They often are seen alone.


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

Kelsey1 said:


> I hunt deer, used to hunt pheasant when there was some...Firm believer in the "you kill it u eat it" mentality. Phony outdoorsman NOT! On the river over a 100 days a year.
> 
> "Problem Wolves" if u disect the numbers are rare. Maybe you yoopers have more accurate info than the DNR. Seems most of the reported livestock attacks have been from those abusing the reimbursement system...The "Protect the wolves" group should not be dismissed as anti-hunting, I am not and have talked to many others that are not "antis" as well.
> 
> We have in place a methodology to deal with problem wolves and killing them is one of them. Want to shoot something for it's pelt...shoot all the Yotes you want...I do! The wolf is a majestic preditor and we should all be proud that the sportsman of this state recognize the privilidge we enjoy of sighting one of these animals during our days in the woods. My 2 cents!


Firm believer in "if you shoot it, you eat it" and than you say shoot all the yotes that you want??????

The first time that you see a wolf in your hunting area you may think that it was a cool experience. But after you start seeing them more and more, you realize that it's not as cool as you first thought. But some of you have to see it to believe it. I just hope that you see it sooner rather than later.


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## U of M Fan (May 8, 2005)

triplelunger said:


> This is the kind of drivel we have to stop spewing in order to sound more intelligent.
> The MDNR knows more about wolf populations and behavior than you, Robert!!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


You don't have to believe Robert. Just ask a logger in the U.P. they will tell you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

DirtySteve said:


> The studies done in Wisconsin and Minnesota both showed an avg of 18-22 deer per yr. That is what i am referencing. There are explanations for you seeing a deer killed and not eaten. Generally only certain wolves in the pack hunt. They eat in a pecking order eating one to 2 at a time. They also gorge and do not eat for days afterwards. It may be that those deer were killed out of convenience at the time.....with the intent to come back later. There are wolves in the pack that do not hunt. They stay behind and wait for their turn to eat after the hunt is over. Probably the reason Most people say michigan Wolves don't have established packs. They often are seen alone.



I watched 4 packs that were coming around when I was hunting before and during the permits you could get for wolves. In all instances I saw all of the pack including the 6 month olds or yearling pups tagging behind. They averaged 4 or 5 members. Out of my 10,000 or so trail cam pictures of wolves most of the time it was 2 or maybe three roaming around during the night that were on the cameras. During the day I saw them all on my cameras or in person. I had 18 trail cameras out in three sections. The time of year differs. Pups in the den I saw 2 or 3 out of the packs hunting. The other three seasons it was all of the packs. I have one of the pack coming in, all 6 of them just after day break. I watched them all run through the pasture straight for the cows by the barns. I shook so bad I blew my shot on the first wolf and should of waited one more minute then they all would of been standing together. I barely grazed that wolf in the neck and they all ran off. I later killed one of those wolves in that pack. I've sat out in the mornings during the designated hunt times and as soon as I could start seeing things moving around the wolves would be eating a calf or cow they dropped the night before. All of them were there and the pecking order was followed but most times there wasn't any bickering as to who could eat. Most of the times all I could do was just shoot over their heads to scare them off. I've had 2 CO's stand right next to me after I shot over the packs and say that's all you can do and you could see the disgust in their eyes because we couldn't do anything to stop the killings.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

View My Video


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Lunger, I happen to have the same college degree as most of the DNR people. I more than likely would be working for the DNR except I did not have family members in all of the right places at the right time. The DNR used to be very limited on what they could and could not say about the wolves. This left the public (including the lunger) with the wrong ideas about wolves. If you really have a conversation with many of the DNR people who have worked with the wolves some of them actually have a disliking for them. I don't get paid to run around the woods and chase wolves that are radio collared like some of the DNR people. I don't consider that knowing a damn thing about wolves. I do spend a considerable amount of time in their habitat and have done so for the last 25 years. I guess that this gives me more experience than most of the DNR people living in Lansing. It also gives me more experience than most of the wolf know it alls that live 300 miles from the nearest wolf.The Waub Mukwa probably knows more about wolves than all of the DNR people put together. The eastern UP is not overrun by wolves but I do happen to see several of them every year.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

If a wolf pack kills a few deer with the intent to return and eat them a few days later do you really think that these deer are counted in the study? Absolutely not I know of many hunters who have shot deer only to find them eaten by coyotes sometimes within an hour. The wolves kill the deer because they are killing machines. They don't always return to eat livestock that they kill either. The only deer kills counted in the studies are ones that are consumed. What happens to deer that are hamstrung in the chase that escape only to die later. It would be difficult to count these deer in a study. These studies do provide interesting facts no doubt, however, they are conservative on some of the information that is released. More often not one study has the same results as a dozen or so prior studies. They keep doing studies because the cash flow (grant money) that pays for studies (paid for by hunters) never ends.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Robert Holmes said:


> If a wolf pack kills a few deer with the intent to return and eat them a few days later do you really think that these deer are counted in the study? Absolutely not I know of many hunters who have shot deer only to find them eaten by coyotes sometimes within an hour. The wolves kill the deer because they are killing machines. They don't always return to eat livestock that they kill either. The only deer kills counted in the studies are ones that are consumed. What happens to deer that are hamstrung in the chase that escape only to die later. It would be difficult to count these deer in a study. These studies do provide interesting facts no doubt, however, they are conservative on some of the information that is released. More often not one study has the same results as a dozen or so prior studies. They keep doing studies because the cash flow (grant money) that pays for studies (paid for by hunters) never ends.



The Mississippi st study records how every deer dies regardless if eaten. 

Why wouldn't a person studying wolf behavior include a deer killed but not eaten? I am not following your logic.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

When a coyote comes across a deer kill they invite all of their friends and neighbors to the feast. I happen to have come across a few in the winter. I do not think that wolves actually killed them but they could have been injured by wolves only to be eaten later by coyotes. There was not a wolf track in the vicinity but you would not have found one if you had tried and I did try. I have seen deer in the woods with serious injuries ripped necks and hamstrings more than likely caused by wolves, that survive the initial attack. If this deer wanders off and dies and Joe the college student finds it a week later he is not going to be able to determine the cause of death. I have also found kill sites where all that you will find is blood, hair, and some gut remains so how did it die? On a couple of these there were lots of coyote tracks and some wolf tracks. Coyote kill or wolf kill? Once the coyotes, bobcats, crows, bears, otters, fisher, martin and other animals eat on a deer it is difficult at best to tell how the deer died. I find it difficult to believe that Mississippi State college students are going to give a 100 percent effort to this study in the middle of winter when the wind chill can drop to -50 degrees or colder. I know where I was when I was in college when it got nasty cold out and it was not in a ceder swamp.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Robert Holmes said:


> When a coyote comes across a deer kill they invite all of their friends and neighbors to the feast. I happen to have come across a few in the winter. I do not think that wolves actually killed them but they could have been injured by wolves only to be eaten later by coyotes. There was not a wolf track in the vicinity but you would not have found one if you had tried and I did try. I have seen deer in the woods with serious injuries ripped necks and hamstrings more than likely caused by wolves, that survive the initial attack. If this deer wanders off and dies and Joe the college student finds it a week later he is not going to be able to determine the cause of death. I have also found kill sites where all that you will find is blood, hair, and some gut remains so how did it die? On a couple of these there were lots of coyote tracks and some wolf tracks. Coyote kill or wolf kill? Once the coyotes, bobcats, crows, bears, otters, fisher, martin and other animals eat on a deer it is difficult at best to tell how the deer died. I find it difficult to believe that Mississippi State college students are going to give a 100 percent effort to this study in the middle of winter when the wind chill can drop to -50 degrees or colder. I know where I was when I was in college when it got nasty cold out and it was not in a ceder swamp.



If you read the Mississippi st reports they record coyote kill if only coyote tracks are present. They record wolf kill if it is wolf tracks or wolf and coyote tracks. If avaliable they will test the rear quarters for signs of malnutrition and they will record as winter kill if malnutrition is present. They also record bobcat kills and unknown cause of death if they cannot determine.

I think i read they hire out alot of the work in the middle winter as the students are primarily in class. They also work with other universities in the area......Mississippi is abit of a drive in January.


I believe that the figure of 20 deer per yr can easily include "thrill kills" if the avg deer has 120 lbs of edible mass that comes to 6.5 lbs of food a day. That is way more than a wolf can consume on a daily basis. They average 2-3lbs of food.....not at once that is the avg. They also claim that 20-25% of great Lakes wolf's diet is beaver and 5% other animals. That means the avg wolf probably actually eats 8 deer a yr but may kill 20. this would account for the uneaten deer you are seeing. 750 wolves at 12 uneaten killed deer comes to 9000 uneaten deer laying around the UP for you to see. The leads me to believe your observations.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Most of the malnutrition in deer will take place after the snow is gone or lets say March, April, and May.With 5 or less deer per square mile there should be very little malnutrition deaths. If a bear finds these deer within a couple of days there will be nothing left for the study. If a wolf kills a fawn or young deer the whole deer will be consumed again nothing left for the study. From my observations many of the adult deer killed by wolves is done in the winter months when the deer are unable to escape due to deep snow. I have seen several shall we say death spots in the woods where you find hair, blood, some guts and nothing else, no evidence to tell how it died. I have had wolves circle gut piles from deer that I have killed. Tracks are a good indicator but coyotes or bobcats can kill a deer that wolves feed on later. These studies can be tainted one way or another. Like I say as long as the grant money is there someone will take advantage of it and do a study. Wolves will conserve energy whenever possible feeding on the young, old, weak, and injured animals. It would be very possible for a wolf to consume 8 to 10 fawns and another 8 to 10 adult deer in a year. Then injure or thrill kill yet another 10 or more deer in a year that are not accounted for.


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## jasonmeekhof (Jan 21, 2012)

Robert Holmes said:


> Most of the malnutrition in deer will take place after the snow is gone or lets say March, April, and May.With 5 or less deer per square mile there should be very little malnutrition deaths. If a bear finds these deer within a couple of days there will be nothing left for the study. If a wolf kills a fawn or young deer the whole deer will be consumed again nothing left for the study. From my observations many of the adult deer killed by wolves is done in the winter months when the deer are unable to escape due to deep snow. I have seen several shall we say death spots in the woods where you find hair, blood, some guts and nothing else, no evidence to tell how it died. I have had wolves circle gut piles from deer that I have killed. Tracks are a good indicator but coyotes or bobcats can kill a deer that wolves feed on later. These studies can be tainted one way or another. Like I say as long as the grant money is there someone will take advantage of it and do a study. Wolves will conserve energy whenever possible feeding on the young, old, weak, and injured animals. It would be very possible for a wolf to consume 8 to 10 fawns and another 8 to 10 adult deer in a year. Then injure or thrill kill yet another 10 or more deer in a year that are not accounted for.


Your being fooled by randomness. The studies have large amounts of data from which to draw from making there assumptions from that data much closer to the truth. Trying extrapolate that a wolf "thrill kills" 10 deer a year just because you saw a couple of carcasses doesn't equate one is not causal or correlary to the other. We as hunters need to quit this I'm smarter than the biologists mentality. They study this stuff day in and day out and have vast amounts of data from which to draw. Personal experience in your particular area is not equivalent to their data. Your personal experience is much more likely to be random. The biologists believe a hunt is called for listen to them. Use their data to make your arguments for a wolf hunt and delisting the wolf. If you just say that the wolves are the devil cause I saw em doin devilish things you sound like an uneducated idiot, and people will dismiss you out of hand.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Robert Holmes said:


> Most of the malnutrition in deer will take place after the snow is gone or lets say March, April, and May.With 5 or less deer per square mile there should be very little malnutrition deaths. If a bear finds these deer within a couple of days there will be nothing left for the study. If a wolf kills a fawn or young deer the whole deer will be consumed again nothing left for the study. From my observations many of the adult deer killed by wolves is done in the winter months when the deer are unable to escape due to deep snow. I have seen several shall we say death spots in the woods where you find hair, blood, some guts and nothing else, no evidence to tell how it died. I have had wolves circle gut piles from deer that I have killed. Tracks are a good indicator but coyotes or bobcats can kill a deer that wolves feed on later. These studies can be tainted one way or another. Like I say as long as the grant money is there someone will take advantage of it and do a study. Wolves will conserve energy whenever possible feeding on the young, old, weak, and injured animals. It would be very possible for a wolf to consume 8 to 10 fawns and another 8 to 10 adult deer in a year. Then injure or thrill kill yet another 10 or more deer in a year that are not accounted for.



Every study in the world has a tolerance of error. The biologists learn from past studies and get more accurate all the time. You can't just dismiss data because of the possibility that a portion could be wrong.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I am not discounting any study I have done a few myself when I was in college. There is a margin of error in any study. What I am saying is that in all of these studies they only credit a deer killed by a wolf if it can be proven that the wolf killed the deer. I am saying that a wolf can and often does kill more deer than these studies say that they do. RMEF has done many studies on wolf kills in the western states and their numbers are different. I do believe that valuable information is the result of many of these studies. When I do the math based on estimated deer populations and a growing wolf population, the entire deer season in the UP should be closed this year. I am predicting that the DNR will milk it out as long as they can but more than likely it will happen. The deer cannot reproduce fast enough to feed all of the predators and maintain a growing population. I guess when deer season closes in the UP and less licenses are sold there will be less grant money for these studies to suck up.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Robert Holmes said:


> I am not discounting any study I have done a few myself when I was in college. There is a margin of error in any study. What I am saying is that in all of these studies they only credit a deer killed by a wolf if it can be proven that the wolf killed the deer. I am saying that a wolf can and often does kill more deer than these studies say that they do. RMEF has done many studies on wolf kills in the western states and their numbers are different. I do believe that valuable information is the result of many of these studies. When I do the math based on estimated deer populations and a growing wolf population, the entire deer season in the UP should be closed this year. I am predicting that the DNR will milk it out as long as they can but more than likely it will happen. The deer cannot reproduce fast enough to feed all of the predators and maintain a growing population. I guess when deer season closes in the UP and less licenses are sold there will be less grant money for these studies to suck up.



I will be honest I haven't read much on western wolf studies. I guess I haven't been as interested in those as much as the studies from the great Lakes region.

The reason I havent is that Western wolves feed on mule deer, elk, moose, goats and free range cattle. Maybe some prairie dogs. All of which are in a completely different landscape. They compete with cougars and massive brown/black bears to eat their kill. I don't think a great Lakes wolf has too many issues with competition on their kill site.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

DirtySteve said:


> Every study in the world has a tolerance of error. The biologists learn from past studies and get more accurate all the time. You can't just dismiss data because of the possibility that a portion could be wrong.


How do you count a fawn kill when it is devoured by wolves and the only evidence is hair and bone matter in the wolf feces? I guess that one and many others are just counted as snowshoe hares.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Robert Holmes said:


> How do you count a fawn kill when it is devoured by wolves and the only evidence is hair and bone matter in the wolf feces? I guess that one and many others are just counted as snowshoe hares.



When you use gps collars on the animals it becomes much easier to tell. You can get to the site while there are still fresh signs of tracks or scat etc... Last yr they only had one fawn that they couldn't identify the predator and it was recorded as unknown. If you read the reports on fawn predation kills the numbers are very low for wolf kills. Makes sense when you think about it. A wolf less of a scavenger than a coyote. A coyote tends to look for food in nooks and crannies similar to a fox. They would stumble across well hidden fawns more often than a wolf. I would think a wolf would be more likely to be targeting 20-40 lb beavers during the time of year fawns are born. Beavers fairly vulnerable and a much larger meal than a newborn fawn.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Yes you will have low numbers of fawn predation that are verified because there is nothing left to verify that they even existed other than the fertilizer. In the spring the fawns are pretty safe from wolves but as they grow a little older they make a nice snack. A 40 pound beaver or a 40 pound fawn it makes no difference to the wolf meat is meat. They can't say hot dogs or Porterhouse. Either way the only evidence is in the fertilizer. If it is verified that a wolf killed an adult fertile doe in June does the study count it as 1 deer killed or 3 deer killed? So if a wolf kills three does in June and July (9 deer dead) it has already reached half of the total and still has 10 months to go. That is why I say that the study and similar studies are conservative in their numbers at best. From what I have seen these studies are done in areas frequented by wolf packs. Not hard to tell when you follow a dozen cars down a back road that does not get a dozen cars on it in a week.Then a beeper goes off and you have a chinese firedrill. A large number of the wolf population are individual animals or pairs that avoid the large packs. If you are studying the packs you are missing what individual animals are doing.


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## Jager Pro (Nov 8, 2013)

Ok I couldn't care less about the % error of the Miss St study. I'd like to get back to the topic about wolves being delisted, it's been about a month since the OP what are the updated chances that Obama signs this bill before October 1st and wolves are delisted?


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

Robert Holmes said:


> Yes you will have low numbers of fawn predation that are verified because there is nothing left to verify that they even existed other than the fertilizer. In the spring the fawns are pretty safe from wolves but as they grow a little older they make a nice snack. A 40 pound beaver or a 40 pound fawn it makes no difference to the wolf meat is meat. They can't say hot dogs or Porterhouse. Either way the only evidence is in the fertilizer. If it is verified that a wolf killed an adult fertile doe in June does the study count it as 1 deer killed or 3 deer killed? So if a wolf kills three does in June and July (9 deer dead) it has already reached half of the total and still has 10 months to go. That is why I say that the study and similar studies are conservative in their numbers at best. From what I have seen these studies are done in areas frequented by wolf packs. Not hard to tell when you follow a dozen cars down a back road that does not get a dozen cars on it in a week.Then a beeper goes off and you have a chinese firedrill. A large number of the wolf population are individual animals or pairs that avoid the large packs. If you are studying the packs you are missing what individual animals are doing.



Once a fawn reaches the age of 3.5 weeks their chance of survival goes up exponentially. They are most vulnerable the first couple weeks. In the study. It isn't hard to verify a fawn kill site when the fawn was wearing a gps collar. In 2014 they were able to identify what killed all but 1.

If a wolf kills a deer in June it is counted as one deer. Hell in America we can't get humans to count unborn fetuses! I am sure biologists don't count them in deer.

If there are 750 wolves in the UP there shouldn't be areas that packs havent established. The single wolves that are driven from the packs travel to find new areas or new packs to fight their way to the top of. Their survival rate is much lower. You will see single and pairs of males that patrol a packs territory. This is their job and they generally patrol the packs entire area every 3 days. They mark territory and fight off intruders.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Jager, no problem Obama will more than likely sign the bill. Even so do you think that the DNR will have a hunt that will trim the population?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

If the Bill gets signed, then all the Anti's have to do is find someone that has "Science" that will support their position and we start the merry-go-round up again. (I hope this isn't what happens but I fear it will.)


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Freepop the anti's are way ahead of you they are staying up all night drinking the same brew as lunger. Yes they are working very hard on it. Dirty Steve I guess that you are coming to realize that there is a difference between actual proven wolf killed deer and the ones that cannot be counted but should be counted. If I say wolf related kills are higher than the actual conservative count I am not in the wrong. 
The DNR knows the deer population is going down at a much faster rate than it can recover. Without a wolf season that will tag 250 wolves there won't be enough deer to hunt in another 5 years. It will be interesting to see if the DNR sets a high quota on the next hunt.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Robert Holmes said:


> Freepop the anti's are way ahead of you they are staying up all night drinking the same brew as lunger.


Way ahead of me? I saw this coming when I was gathering signatures.

The only options are: to try and make something happen or roll over and take it.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

FREEPOP said:


> If the Bill gets signed, then all the Anti's have to do is find someone that has "Science" that will support their position and we start the merry-go-round up again. (I hope this isn't what happens but I fear it will.)



I understand your concern as these fights never seem to end. But the way I understand it this is much diffrerent this time. This will be a rider on Obama's fiscal budget for next yr. That means it will be voted on and passed as law. It can not be line item vetoed or over ruled by a judge unless they can prove it is unconstitutional. It would have nothing to do with proving science etc... Last time I checked there were no constitutional rights for wolves.

I think there are 3 things that could screw this up.

1. Another more powerful group could put pressure on govt to remove it before the bill is passed. 

2. The fiscal budget could get delayed and govt could go into lock down like in the past.....this could drag out until next jan not allowing a season this yr.

3. It could get passed and we could have a season for a yr or two. Then the anti groups could lobby for a new law that over turns this law. It would take them time and it would have to get voted through house and senate.

To answer Roberts question about this yr. I beleive we have a 50 50 chance this is passed by Oct 1. It is never a guarantee that the budget passes on time. Some on here have said the dnr is preparing for it. I have no inside info to say if they are or arent. I am hopeful they are prepared.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Our biggest hurdle is the Anti's have virtually unlimited $$$$

The fight will never end. 

If it does, most likely, we've lost.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

The fight can and will end. The DNR is mandated by the wolf management plan to manage wildlife so that there is a balance in the predator prey relationship. In other words there has to be plenty of deer in the woods for the wolves to eat. When the DNR closes all deer hunting which I believe that will happen. At that time a line will drawn in the sand. Take it any way that you would like to and I will leave it up to your imagination. Not too many people want to pay taxes on land that they can't use.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Robert Holmes said:


> The fight can and will end.


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