# Mancelona Buckpole



## Recurve (Dec 6, 2000)

Just returned from the opening gun weekend. No luck by our party, no doe permits and we passed on spikes. Not so for many hunters. The buckpole in Mancelona was loaded with spikes and fork horned bucks. There were a few respectable bucks hanging but the little guys far outnumbered any mature bucks taken. Personally, I won't shoot a spike or forked horn buck and I'd think twice about a 6 point. I'm not a trophy hunter but I believe in letting them grow.


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## Steven Arend (Jun 27, 2003)

I voted maybe.

Here why.
when I first got married some 13 years ago my inlaws invited up to deer camp in Alpena. They have a rule nothing less then an eight point. But they told me that if I see a big spike to take it.
The second day of hunting I had this big spike come walking in so I took it. It turn out to be a 16in spike with a 13 3/4in spread. the deer was 3 1/2 yrs. old. They told me that a spike that old will only have spike ofsprings. (is this true?)


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## MSUICEMAN (Jan 9, 2002)

the answer to your ? about will this deer only have spike offspring is probably not. there are just too many other factors that could have led to this deer having spike antlers than some sort of gene. Plus even if he did have a gene that caused only spikes forming which is very unlikely, it does not necessarily get handed down to the next generation. Think about it like baldness, it does not necessarily get passed through the generations.

steve


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

I don't understand why some hunters pass on spikes, but have no problem killing other yearling bucks. If you are going to pass on spikes, then why not pass on all yearling bucks (they are easy to identify)?


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## markbouman (Nov 12, 2002)

Yes, and I did last week! BUT, the spike I shot this year actually had longer tines (10" plus) than main beams on my 6 pt from last year. Both were 1.5 yr olds and weighed within 5 lbs of each other (130-135 lbs). So, based on that, what's the difference?

To preface, I hunt because my family LOVES to eat venison and I love to sit in the woods. I was presented with and made a perfect shot on the spike. Now that meat is in the freezer, I'll try for a doe or 8 pt or better buck. 

Just my .02


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

I'm not going to start the "shoot anything" vs. "don't shoot young bucks" argument (see QDM forum for that) but I just get confused when spikes are treated differently than other yearling bucks. If a hunter understands the reasoning for letting a spike walk, then that same hunter should use the same logic for other yearling bucks. If a hunter doesn't care about shooting young bucks then spikes should be fair game. Personally, I use the following criteria: If I wouldn't get a shoulder-mount done on the buck then it walks. There are more than enough does around, and if I'm waiting for venison I will not have to wait long for a doe.


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## TONGA (Jul 22, 2002)

just because a buck is a spike dose not make it a yearling,,and just because a buck has 8 points dose not mean it is old !


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

True, but it is still quite easy to identify yearling bucks.


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## TONGA (Jul 22, 2002)

your right,,and I think they should walk also,,,but I can't see faulting anyone if they hunt within the law,,all you can really do is explain why they should be left to grow,,after that maybe they get your point and maybe they don't


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## pikedevil (Feb 11, 2003)

protecting spikes and spikes only is like picking all the small slow kids for the basketball team and cutting all the bigger talented players. Spikes are typically (not always) the smallest most genetically inferior bucks of the herd. Wat we need is to protect 1.5 year old bucks that grow solid 6,7,8 point racks, those are the young bucks that have potential to be giants. If u want to see big mature bucks you're better off shooting a spike and letting a young 8 point walk then vice versa.....Personally i think point restrictions can be counter productive because it puts even more pressure on the young bucks that grow solid racks and have the potential to be huge if allowed to live to the 4.5 year mark.


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## Swamphound (Oct 9, 2001)

I have to agree with Mr Pdevil. If I harvest a 6 point and he turns out to be a youngster, what would he have been next year. Probably a pretty nice deer. Thats the exact reason I feel antler restrictions won't work. You have to judge the whole deer, the body size(is he thick, or sway backed or is he still young and some shoulders to grow into) I saw a lot of 6's and 8's (Jackson county) that were young deer hanging on the buck pole. I'd rather shoot the spike and let youngster with the nice rack go if I were to harvest a young tender animal. On the other hand, if I wanted a doe. I would have to wait to shoot an older one, more mature bodied so not accidentally take out a button. What would taste better young spike, or older doe?
That said I don't have to worry...my luck prevents any thing shootable from coming into range. I did pass on two does, because they were marginal in size, one had a real pear shaped head, but I couldn't be sure by looking at her that she wasn't a button...I got one button 3 years ago and never want to again.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

There is no way to know the potential of an immature deer by antler growth. There are many factors why a young buck might have what appear to be "inferior genes". When those bucks mature, in many cases they will catch up to and surpass other bucks of the same age. You will never know a deer`s potential until it reaches 4 1/2 years of age. It`s best to pass on all 1 1/2 year old bucks than to try to guess which one has the greater potential. You just don`t know when a deer is that young. That spike might be a spike because he was one of triplets, and the 8 point might have been a single fawn. Also because most young bucks disperse, the 8 point could have come from an area with farms and good nutrition while the spike could be from a swamp with poor nutrition. 

It would be better to shoot that button buck that will be the first deer to die in winter, than to shoot a 1 1/2 year old spike that has already survived the toughest 1 1/2 years of his life. OOPS, there I go throwing science into Michigan deer management again.


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## Huntin Horseman (Nov 2, 2002)

I don't really have a problem with people shooting "Decent" spikes, not ten but a little smaller. But wha treally gets me is when people shoot button bucks, I just cannot stand it. I don't know why you would shoot a button!!


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Huntin Horseman _
> *I . But wha treally gets me is when people shoot button bucks, I just cannot stand it. I don't know why you would shoot a button!! *


For meat? Because it is their first deer? Thought it was a doe? A mistake? Because buttons are the first ones to die during the winter? Lots of reasons, doesn't make them necesarily right.... but who am i to judge.


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## flip69 (Jan 10, 2003)

i voted yes because it would be my first deer same goes for a doe. got to get the monkey off my back!!!


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

most deer farmers that you talk to will tell you that the doe is the determining factor on antler traits not the buck. a lot of times large bucks produce small bucks and small bucks produce large bucks.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

There have been a number of well controlled scientific studies published which showed that a yearling spike can grow an excellent rack in later years given excellent nutrition, lack of stress, proper minerals, etc. One of these was done at Penn State U. Another was at Univ. of Texas.

BTW, on the way back from deer camp, we stopped at the "buck pole" in Bear Lake. What a joke. Only a little backet racked 6 point and another scrub buck were hanging in 50+F degree temps. Somebody thought that these were "good bucks"??? They need to think again!


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Huntin Horseman _
> *I don't really have a problem with people shooting "Decent" spikes, not ten but a little smaller. But wha treally gets me is when people shoot button bucks, I just cannot stand it. I don't know why you would shoot a button!! *


I don't know why you would shoot a spike!!


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## Swamphound (Oct 9, 2001)

Why not? Its legal! Its probably tender and yummy! We haven't had too many killer winter down here, so I am not losing any sleep about the button bucks starving to death.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2003)

Shooting button bucks is legal too. What's wrong with that?


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## Swamphound (Oct 9, 2001)

Probably more meat on a spike, and not every hunter has an antlerless permit to harvest a button. If you want to shoot a button, go ahead, it is legal if you have the permit. Most of the buttons I have seen harvested have a dressed weight of 50lbs or so. Not much meat. But by all means if you want it, take it. People eat veal all the time. 
BTW
I would like to see the stats, on how many people actually shoot buttons when trying to fill their antlerless tag. I would wager that of the people that shoot buttons, 95% of them thought they were harvesting a doe when they pulled the trigger. No way to prove it,since 1) we have no check stations  and 2)they would actually have to admit they made a mistake when checking the deer.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Swamphound - I too would bet - that 95% of BB's harvister were taken by people shooting at a doe - but wouldn't admit it after the fact - 

ferg.....


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## Kid (Oct 30, 2003)

I voted yes...because you don't eat the antlers. I swear that about 90% of the deer I seen on the highway on the way home strapped to cars were doe...where are all the bucks this year?


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

hopefully still roaming the woods to be seen next year.


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

Hey buckbass, i shot a spike and it was my first deer ever. I also took it with a bow, very tasty too. To me that was a pretty good reason.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2003)

I've killed button bucks that were very tasty too. Actually, my comment above was tounge-in-cheek. My first deer was also a bow-killed spike. My comment was meant to spur a discussion. If some think that button bucks should be protected then why not protect spikes? Why not protect all yearling bucks? Maybe we should protect all bucks under 5-1/2 years. Somewhere a line needs to be drawn that says which bucks are fair game and which are protected; but where should that line be drawn?


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

I moved this thread to the QDM Forum where it is more appropriate.

Now, play nice guys n' gals!!!!


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## No Threat (Nov 28, 2001)

No Way, 

I have many reasons why I don't shoot spikes or any 1.5 old buck for that matter.

I have not shot a buck with my bow or rifle in 4 years. I have passed up at countless shots at little ones. Opening morning this year I passed on a four point and a spike. 20 minutes later I killed a nine point . Had I killed one of the small bucks I probably wouldn't have had the chance at the larger deer. Had I killed one f the young bucks last year, or the year before, that could have been either the nine point I got saturday or the eight point I got on sunday morning. Its really not that hard to figure out.

Just my $.02

Jeff


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

Sure would. I find if you boil the antlers they are still hard and not edible. I'll eat the meat and put any antlers on display whether they're spikes or 12's.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

The camp I hunt at in Clare QDM is 8 point or higher. . . . which I think sucks sometimes when you are trying to count 8 points. Plus, there is a 7 point with a g3 missing on the right that has a 17-18 inch inside spread or better. He has been passed up several times, but I have a feeling he will venture onto some land that the people will shoot him. I would like to change our rule to a "mounting rule". . .which means, take the buck if you are willing to mount it, if not take a doe.

I took a nice 8 point opening day and so did my friend that hunts about 400 yards away. I saw about 70+ deer and 9 different bucks. (obviously some of the 70 would have been the same does)


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

As they say, "You can't eat the horns" or "Anyone got a recipe for antler stew?".

Those excuses are just that, an excuses.

The difference between a 1.5 year old buck and a 2.5 year old buck is about 30# of meat. A 3.5 year old buck has about 50# more edible meat than a 1.5 year old buck.

So for all the "meat hunters", let 'em grow and more "bang" for your "buck". 

 

A one buck limit would be a baby step in the right direction, antler restrictions *WILL* and *do* work, ask PA hunters.


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## TONGA (Jul 22, 2002)

I find I have different stadards for different property,,
on the state land by my house ? well if you would be lucky enough to see any deer you probably better put it on the ground!
but on the private land we hunt up north my standards are a little different,,,up there we try to hunt mainly does unless,,I try not to shoot a buck unless its say 2.5 years old,,,but everybody ihas a different standard at camp,,,like My one friend had never got a buck his hole life,,well this year he got one with his bow, a 1.5 year old with a small 6 point rack,,,and I was verry happy for him,,,And I have another friend that hunts with our group and if he ever gets a deer,any deer,I don't care if it's 35 pounds,,we will take him out for a lap dance or 5!!
I say if you hunt within the law then you should be abile to set your own standards!!!


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

I grew up in Mancelona. The buck pole was typical for what is normally shot and hung there. There was one real nice buck that looked so nice it should have come from somewhere else, maybe it did?

We have taken prizes for the biggest bucks in years past. Spent most of my younger life hunting up there until about five years ago. I got tired of the encroaching hunting pressure and the lack of quality deer. I now hunt in Southern MI and spend as much time as I can out of state for a real deer hunt.

You want to solve all these problems with quality deer and better access to land? You got to be willing to give up something. Take a look at Kansas, 230,000 hunters. A resident must make a choice, archery or rifle, not both. They are only allowed one buck. 

I for one want to reduce hunter numbers, not get more involved. I know the argument about losing our future hunting rights. We just have way too many hunters during rifle season. We maintain around 730,000 rifle hunters. What we don't consider how many acres of huntable land we lose each year.

My dream would be to give our residents a choice, archery or rifle and one buck. Make rifle season one week longer. We are just plain spoiled in this state and I suspect no one would be willing to give away what we already have.

Major change yes, it will take a major change to improve things. Then we can forget whether it is a spike or not.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

kingfisher11,
I think you mean make rifle season one week long, not longer. Should we also cut bow season & muzzle loader season in half ? I'm ok with increased antler restrictions, but I would not support any major shortening of hunting seasons except for the elimination of the late antlerless season. If you can't kill an antlerless deer in 2 1/2 months you should probably start hunting behind the high fences.

L & O


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

Actually I would like to see both shortened but I figure it would be throwing a bone to the rifle hunters. There would be a big roar about how long the bow season is compared to rifle.

I expect to get bashed on this. I am just tired of hunting in Michigan on public land and seeing nothing but orange. I have found a few secluded public spots, just not many. I went to the UP for the first time in a few years and took my 15 year old. Hoping to get away from the crowds. I would walk back in a mile thinking we had the place to ourselves. Nope, a four wheeler or a camp there. After two days of this we came home. I guess I will have to make the long drive to the western end of the UP if I want seclusion.

Maybe I am just getting spoiled with the out of state hunts. Something will eventually have to change. If you don't own land or able to lease you are going to have a tough time in the future.

One more thing to stir the pot. We have to stop the poaching. We all know somebody who does it. We just don't want to say anything because maybe they are the landowner we hunt with or a friend. I think its funny how some people don't consider poaching a crime. I know a father and son who go to church every Sunday and won't break a law. But, when it comes to taking a doe/buck on someone elses tag or taking an illegal deer this is not breaking the law to them.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingfisher 11 _
> *One more thing to stir the pot. We have to stop the poaching. We all know somebody who does it. We just don't want to say anything because maybe they are the landowner we hunt with or a friend. I think its funny how some people don't consider poaching a crime. I know a father and son who go to church every Sunday and won't break a law. But, when it comes to taking a doe/buck on someone elses tag or taking an illegal deer this is not breaking the law to them. *


Hmmm. Sounds like another reason to have mandatory deer check-ins.


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## TONGA (Jul 22, 2002)

I don't think the mandatory checks will do anything to stop a land owner from poaching,,let's face it he will just drag it into the barn and cut it up,,,but I do think the deer checks would be a good idea just for the better deer management info and they might cut down on a small percent of the poaching


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## Recurve (Dec 6, 2000)

Perhaps the question should have been, "Would you shoot an immature buck?"

The number of tines a buck has doesn't mean it's mature. Sometimes a spike can be an older buck, not often, but it happens. I do think that most of us can tell a mature buck from a little boy, or a "nice spike" as some say. I know it's legal but it just bugs me when I see a young buck hanging. 

For me, when bow hunting, a doe is a more challenging trophy. It's difficult to draw on a group of does without being seen. Generally one will always have their head up and alert the rest. A young buck is much more careless. I like to watch a young spike but I won't shoot one. 

Point restrictions might help but it wouldn't prevent taking a basket racked 6 or 8 point. On the other hand, some mature bucks might only have a 6 point rack. For those that argue a young buck is tastier, I haven't killed a northern deer, but I haven't noticed any difference between the quality of venison from a 1.5 year old doe or from a mature buck. Just more of it.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Recurve _
> *For me, when bow hunting, a doe is a more challenging trophy. It's difficult to draw on a group of does without being seen. *


For many years I've felt that a 3-6 year old, experienced doe is one of the toughest deer to take. I'm not sure if I've ever harvested a truly huge doe. I think back to the does I've taken and the size of their heads....a real indicator of age.....and I can't recall one that I'd say was more than 2.5 yrs. old. They are one cautious animal.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

I couldn't agree more kingfisher. 

We have about 250,000 too many empty their magazine/quiver on anything that moves from 5 - 500 yards, road hunting, tresspassing, orange/camo clad bafoons that call themselves hunters in this state. We don't need them and why would you want them. Strength in numbers? These jerks do more harm than good, time to wake up and admit it.

Bash away.


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