# CWAC question and answer



## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Water_Hazard said:


> I'm sure they would, but I think what he is trying to say is that the dates as they are, represent what the majority of hunters prefer.


Exactly! I think they would still buy a license, but just like the DNRE doesn't want to take a chance with loosing the grandfather status, should we take the chance of them not buying a license and leaving waterfowl hunting all together, given the already current national decline in hunter participation?


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> Well I'll disagree with you for a change on that one issue. You could also have a split in the middle of the season, instead of doing the two day late hunt, kind of like the old days when we had a split around Thanksgiving time, which would push the end date out. But isn't there a drop-dead end date for us up here as well? Seem to recall there was.
> 
> Having said that though, I agree with the rest of your last post, and the current philosophy of providing everyone an opportunity to enjoy their sport (i.e. gain as much participation as possible). My feeling is if you can't find at least a week or so of good hunting with the current 60 day arrangement, NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF HUNTING YOU LIKE BEST, then you just aren't trying hard enough. Think about it this way...let's just say we had a zone 3 split mid-season, like we used to have around Thanksgiving time. That would push the closing date out further and take away the late two days, but would the big water fanatics really be happy with that? I doubt they'd like that as much as the late two days now. Reason being there's currently a nice lull, giving those big water birds a chance to relax and build up, then those who choose got at 'em hard for two solid days, no matter how brutal the weather may be. So although I'm not saying the current arrangement meets all of my needs either, I think it gives those diehards who enjoy the two day "survival" hunt an opportunity that they may not have otherwise. In other words, provides the best opportunity for maximum participation, no matter what style of hunting you like best.


I understand completely, and agree with you completely. I made that statement based on what the MAJORITY of hunters, from my region, have told me they want while talking to them this summer. You are completely right, when given the choice between a mid-season split or keeping the current 2day season the majority, in about a 25:1 vote right now, would rather not give up the late 2 day hunt. 

From discussions I have had, an October/early November split is almost out of the question. Between the nicer weather(increases participation), peak time for migrations(by traditional survey standards) and the major Law Enforcement nighmare that would be created.

Again, do I like it, NO!!!!! But, I have to make my decision based on what the majority wants and what keeps participation at the maximum. I represent my region, and not myself.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

easy boys, easy.

I've suggested this in the past and it still holds true; look at our neighboring states in the flyway and their regs. You might get a better understanding of how things are laid out flyway wide and maybe gain a greater appreciation for how things are handled in Michigan.

example: wisconsin goose management.... have fun.

someone might grouse that Arkansas gets two splits, why can't we? well, guess what?... they have one zone for the entire state. is that what you really want?

Ohio has two zones and they gripe about their line as much as we do.

~~~~~~
and yes, there is a fed guideline for each flyway that's issued later this summer. it basically lays out that states within that flyway can start seasons on such a date and must conclude by a date. line lists daily bag and harvest type (i.e. cans, pinners, hen mallards usually. on the east coast, they talk about harleys).

I believe the issue of allowable zones/split counts are addressed here as well, but I could be wrong.


(now my curiosity is piqued. I'll see what I can dig up!)


Lastly, I'd like to tone down Roberts comment on CWAC or more appropriatley, how it might be interpreted by readers. There are no shady, back room deals cut - all meetings are open to the public. The reps are on a 3 yr term and meet twice a year for an all day meeting. they're not paid for their troubles, nor the gas and lodging expenses incurred to attend and represent us. So for that guy repping Baraga county that has a round trip down to houghton lake on his dime and time .... i think that holds some water as to his level of dedication to waterfowlers and waterfowling in our state. Please don't think these guys are self serving or holding cards.


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

Branta said:


> ...There is a fed guideline for each flyway that's issued later this summer. it basically lays out that states within that flyway can start seasons on such a date and must conclude by a date.


For the Mississippi Flyway these dates (for ducks) are: "Opening day cannot be prior to the last Saturday in September, and Closing day cannot be later than the last Sunday in January." 

States in the flyway are allowed 3-zones with no split, or 2-zones with a split in each zone, or (I believe) 1-zone with two splits (not sure on this last point). We are "grandfathered" because we had 3-zones with a split in each zone BEFORE the regs changed to "3-zones with no split." That ability to have a split is what we'd be giving up if we lost our grandfathered status. Right now, having a split might not seem all that critical, but imagine what would happen if there were more restrictive season lengths of, say 30-days. To not have the ability to split those 30 would REALLY suck. So giving up the grandfathered status would be HUGE. 

The question is: Is there any leeway? Could we make small changes in the lines without affecting the grandfathered status (i.e. could we move The Bay, and only The Bay)? I have heard people say (and I've even repeated - shame on me...) that lines can be moved if they don't go further than one county from where they are currently drawn, and not effect status. But I'd really like to read the Federal Regs to see whether or not this is true....

By the way, right now Illinois is petitioning the Feds for the ability to have 4-zones beginning in 2011. It'll be interesting to see if they get it or if they get shot down (I'm betting they get shot down :evilsmile)......
http://www.thetelegraph.com/articles/idnr-36920-illinois-zone.html


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Shlwego said:


> For the Mississippi Flyway these dates (for ducks) are: "Opening day cannot be prior to the last Saturday in September, and Closing day cannot be later than the last Sunday in January."
> 
> States in the flyway are allowed 3-zones with no split, or 2-zones with a split in each zone, or (I believe) 1-zone with two splits (not sure on this last point). We are "grandfathered" because we had 3-zones with a split in each zone BEFORE the regs changed to "3-zones with no split." That ability to have a split is what we'd be giving up if we lost our grandfathered status. Right now, having a split might not seem all that critical, but imagine what would happen if there were more restrictive season lengths of, say 30-days. To not have the ability to split those 30 would REALLY suck. So giving up the grandfathered status would be HUGE.
> 
> ...


That leads precisely to what makes this so difficult. From the information that has been given to me, the FED's don't really make it clear at all what would be allowed or not allowed. And as you said everything sounds good right now, given our 60day seasons, but it is all of the what if's, especially associated with a 30day season, that make applying to change a system that is darn good and fits our state very well so stinken scarry and makes one constantly question whether it should be done.

Remember, the decisions made this year are not just about this year, but set a foundation for future years. I would much rather keep good to great season setting capability for the years to come than experience feast and famine in our season setting capability.

Branta, thanks for clarifying the CWAC stuff as well. It amazes me how at certain times people want to take CWAC and minimize the group by emphasize that it is an "advisory" committe, and then at other times, usually when things are going how they want them, people want to crucify CWAC. Talk about a no win situation.
I learned have learned a ton about the group and process in my short time, and want to do my best to share that with others.


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## Swamp Boss (Mar 14, 2003)

To answer your question there is a difference between Mid September and October weather and there is a HUGE difference between opening day mayhem and the overall genial nature of the youth hunt -especially for seniors! I know of several seniors who would take advantage of an opportunity if available who otherwise have left the sport. Costs nothing, adds to hunter recruitment and rewards those that have contibuted to the sport for years. Seems like a lay down to me.

100 % of the ideas that aren't presented fail.


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## Ruger-44 (Apr 2, 2009)

This may be throwing a big wrench in the discussion, but I'll float it out there anyhow. Here's my idea for "fixing" our season -- a new flyway! As I understand it, our season length, bag limits, etc.. are set in part based on the kill totals for all states in the flyway, which means we're limited by Arkansas, Illinois, Louisiana, etc... Yet, as I understand it, many of our birds don't end up in those states. I think the feds need to re-examine the flyways based on current/recent (say 10-15 year average) migration patterns and then re-establish the flyways. I'd bet they find there are 5-6 distinct flyways for ducks at least. I think a flyway consisting of MI, OH, KY, and Tenn. would be about right. Might give us a longer season.

If my understanding of the migration patterns is wrong, then my idea is flawed, so if anyone knows where to find the data, I'd appreciate a link to it.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

Swamp Boss said:


> To answer your question there is a difference between Mid September and October weather and there is a HUGE difference between opening day mayhem and the overall genial nature of the youth hunt -especially for seniors! I know of several seniors who would take advantage of an opportunity if available. I appreciate your coming in to take a chance of fielding questions but respectfully your role as I understand it is to represent our interests not decide on the validity of them.


I agree - I think a senior's hunt would be a hoot. I'm sure a fair number of the older guys don't feel like hassling with the younger crowd for spots earlier in the season - and the weather can be a factor as the season progresses. As it is now I don't get serious about my hunting until late October - the first couple weekends are for getting my 4 & 8 year olds out with their cousins before the weather gets nasty. I'd glady burn some vacation days shuttling some old duffers around and fetching their birds


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## decoy706 (Jul 28, 2006)

From 1981 thru 1996 the west side of the bay was in zone 2
East side was zone 3
This was changed to put all the managed areas in the same zone starting in 1997
Look at the old rules - BTW I have them all back to 1975 before the duck stamp
as to the CWAC member I upset sorry but I want to see the rules in writing on changing zones
Come see me I'll be at Bay City Waterfowl Festival ask anyone most know me


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

decoy706 said:


> From 1981 thru 1996 the west side of the bay was in zone 2
> East side was zone 3
> This was changed to put all the managed areas in the same zone starting in 1997
> Look at the old rules - BTW I have them all back to 1975 before the duck stamp
> ...


I would be more than happy to chat with you at the show, feel free to come to the CWAC meeting, it's open to the public. I will be easy to find as I will have a great big name tag on.

Again, I can't show you the rules, all I can do is tell you the information that is given to me by the DNRE to work with. Just because I am on CWAC doesn't give me some special access to secret information. You said you tried to get the info, and were unable. So with that, that means I am unable as well. I only have access to the same information that you do, mine just comes in a nice preformed packet that is mailed to me.

As I said earlier in the thread, when the discussion of "zone adjustments" came up and was presented at the spring meeting by DNRE personal, my take home message was:
*CWAC don't bother cause even if you decide on something different, we(DNRE) will shoot you down like a greenhead hovering over a SWD in October.*Wish I could tell you more, but also when I started this thread I said,"Understand that I may not have all the answers, or the ones you want, but will try my best." And this looks as this may be the case in this situation. And as much as I hate to use it here now, we are only an advisory commitee and the DNRE has final say. 

My hands and everyone on CWAC's hands are tied when it come to the idea of zone changing. I was offended by the fact that you placed the blame in regards to zone changing solely on CWAC, undeservedly.

Again, I wish from the depest parts of my sole that I could give you more information,and the answers that you want, but I can't. What I have given you as far as information is what I have and there isn't anymore.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Swamp Boss said:


> To answer your question there is a difference between Mid September and October weather and there is a HUGE difference between opening day mayhem and the overall genial nature of the youth hunt -especially for seniors! I know of several seniors who would take advantage of an opportunity if available who otherwise have left the sport. Costs nothing, adds to hunter recruitment and rewards those that have contibuted to the sport for years. Seems like a lay down to me.
> 
> 100 % of the ideas that aren't presented fail.


I will gladly try to start a discussion about this at the meeting. Not sure where it may or may not go, but highly doubt that anything would be approved for this year, as the youth season has already been set. May be able to get something in the works for future years.

Please remember, the DNRE has final say, and may decide that this is not something that they want or even feel is necessary.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Ruger-44 said:


> This may be throwing a big wrench in the discussion, but I'll float it out there anyhow. Here's my idea for "fixing" our season -- a new flyway! As I understand it, our season length, bag limits, etc.. are set in part based on the kill totals for all states in the flyway, which means we're limited by Arkansas, Illinois, Louisiana, etc... Yet, as I understand it, many of our birds don't end up in those states. I think the feds need to re-examine the flyways based on current/recent (say 10-15 year average) migration patterns and then re-establish the flyways. I'd bet they find there are 5-6 distinct flyways for ducks at least. I think a flyway consisting of MI, OH, KY, and Tenn. would be about right. Might give us a longer season.
> 
> If my understanding of the migration patterns is wrong, then my idea is flawed, so if anyone knows where to find the data, I'd appreciate a link to it.



While I like your thoughts and energy, you for sure just stepped into an area that is completely out of CWAC's domain. Your talkin about a major change in Federal Migratory Bird Treaty domain. That's both USFW and Canadian FWS.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

I found this info at the USFWS It's old but it gives some info concerning the grandfather /clause.....

C. Zones and Split Seasons

In 1990, because of concerns about the proliferation of zones and 
split seasons for duck hunting, a cooperative review and evaluation of 
the historical use of zone/split options was conducted. This review did 
not show that the proliferation of these options had increased harvest 
pressure; however, the ability to detect the impact of zone/split 
configurations was poor because of unreliable response variables, the 
lack of statistical tests to differentiate between real and perceived 
changes, and the absence of adequate experimental controls. 
Consequently, guidelines were established to provide a framework for 
controlling the proliferation of changes in zone/split options. The 
guidelines identified a limited number of zone/split configurations 
that could be used for duck hunting and restricted the frequency of 
changes in these configurations to 5-year intervals. In 1996, the 
guidelines were revised to

[[Page 18568]]

provide States greater flexibility in using their zone/split 
arrangements. Open seasons for changes occurred in 1991, 1996, and 
2001. The fourth open season will occur this year when zone/split 
configurations will be established for the 2006-2010 period.
For the 2006-2010 period, the following guidelines will be used to 
guide zone/split selections:
Guidelines for Duck Zones and Split Seasons
The following zone/split-season guidelines apply only for the 
regular duck season:
a. A zone is a geographic area or portion of a State, with a 
contiguous boundary, for which independent dates may be selected for 
the regular duck season.
b. Consideration of changes for management-unit boundaries is not 
subject to the guidelines and provisions governing the use of zones and 
split seasons for ducks.
c. Only minor (less than a county in size) boundary changes will be 
allowed for any grandfather arrangement, and changes are limited to the 
open season.
d. Once a zone/split option is selected during an open season, it 
must remain in place for the following 5 years.
Any State may continue the configuration used in the previous 5-
year period. If changes are made, the zone/split-season configuration 
must conform to one of the following options:
1. Three zones with no splits,
2. Split seasons (no more than 3 segments) with no zones, or
3. Two zones with the option for 2-way (2-segment) split seasons in 
one or both zones.
Grandfathered Zone/Split Arrangements
When the zone/split guidelines were first implemented in 1991, 
several States had completed experiments with zone/split arrangements 
different from Options 1-3 above. Those States were offered a one-time 
opportunity to continue those arrangements, with the stipulation that 
only minor changes could be made to zone boundaries; and if they ever 
wished to change their zone/split arrangement, the new arrangement 
would have to conform to one of the 3 options identified above. If a 
grandfathered State changes its zoning arrangement, it cannot go back 
to the grandfathered arrangement it previously had in place.
We request that by May 1, 2006, States notify us whether or not 
they plan to change their zone/split configurations for the next 5-year 
period (2006-2010). Those States wishing to change their configuration 
should submit a proposal for the change by this date.

Now ! I realize this is old but yet it does provide some insight on how the process works. Here's the link to my search results page. I'm sure there is more. I worked for a federal gov. agency for 25 yrs. Getting specific answers is "Very Difficult" at best. You not only deal with red tape/paperwork, you half to deal with the individuals who may be able to help you. And there willingness to do so. Rob has been very gracious to extend his neck, and has provided us with the info he has. Thanks Rob

Here's the link...... 

http://firstgovsearch.gov/search?qu...&affiliate=fws.gov&locale=en&m=&commit=Search


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

1 thing about the senior idea...I love it but....the youth season is a federally mandated initiative if i recall. To get seniors included into it i'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say its gonna have to come from the feds as its outside the regular season guidelines (sept 25th thru jan 30th). That being said, I would love to see it's inception come from michigan if it has to be promoted to higher levels. I would also bring it up at our association and put the feelers out there to see if anyone had a major issue with it to us getting behind the idea.

I take a few older gentlemen out each year, winches make it a lot easier for us on the flats to get them out there. couple years ago i took a gentleman out that was 88yrs old. He literally never left my boat once i got him in there, called my boat a duckhunters ATV (he road the dike out while in boat). He gunned like a champ and had a blast. He shot a hen mallard that was banded on the last bird. one hunt i won't forget.


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## Bow Hunter Brandon (Jan 15, 2003)

This thread is really timely. I was thinking today as I was driving about "the vanishing hunter" and the fact that recruitment is needed badly and its up to each of us to work towards that goal. That means taking youths out both for the youth hunt and in the regular season. It also means taking out adults that show interest. We have a great tool for doing that now in Michigan called the Apprentice Hunting License. It allows adults who have not taken hunter safety buy a license and hunt as long as accompanied by a licensed hunter over the age of 21. The reason I bring this up is because I was thinking it would help with recruitment if we could take these first time hunters out before the regular season opened up.

I realize its a stretch but if you look at if from the goal of bringing new adults into the fold of hunting I would think it would work great. They are only allowed to use that license for two years before they have to take hunters safety.


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## decoy706 (Jul 28, 2006)

Thank You Mike L for the link
Now it looks like Sag Bay West side could go back to zone 2 as allowed by the rules and NOT hurt the "Grandfathered" status as the line is less than a county
i hope everyone saves a copy of this info


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

decoy706 said:


> Thank You Mike L for the link
> Now it looks like Sag Bay West side could go back to zone 2 as allowed by the rules and NOT hurt the "Grandfathered" status as the line is less than a county
> i hope everyone saves a copy of this info


I agree, that the link makes it "look like it COULD", but as Mike L. alluded too, its dealing with the Federal government and things are as clear as mud.

Please also pay very close attention to the comment:
If a grandfathered State changes its zoning arrangement, it cannot go back to the grandfathered arrangement it previously had in place.

As I have said, this spring was my first meeting as a CWAC rep, and when the topic of zones was discussed by DNRE reps, my take home message was again:
CWAC don't bother cause even if you decide on something different, we(DNRE) will shoot you down like a greenhead hovering over a SWD in October, and that is why I keep re-itterating that this is not a problem that has been spawned by CWAC. If the DNRE who has final authority says NO, there is nothing that I or anyone else on CWAC can do about it.

The thing you have to remember is that a decision made today affects tomorrow as well. 

decoy706, you so aptly pointed out that you have rule books back into the 70's. With that, I am sure you can remember the days of 30day season's. Well could you imagine losing our grandfather, 3 zones each having a split, and trying to set a season when only being allowed 30days. I am pretty sure that following the non-grandfathered rules there would be a lot of very unhappy hunters.

I can see the options with a 30 day season right now:
1- 3 zones, no splits- so much for any late season hunting in the south zone as emphasis would be put on early october and season would long be gone prior to late November.
2-2 zones, a split in each zone- very dicey what areas constitute what zone and where do you put the split to accomodate south zone lae season gunning without significantly risking some freeze up and loss of days in northern sections of the state.
3-Single zone, with 3 splits(seasons mostlikely 10days each). Again where do you put the splits and not risk loss of days to freeze up in the northern areas(UP) of the state.

I am sure it is the uncertainy, and the fact that we are dealing with the Federal Govn't, as to why the DNRE really won't consider zone adjustment. Especially considering that what we currently have is actually really quite good as far as zones and season setting is concerned.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> 1 thing about the senior idea...I love it but....the youth season is a federally mandated initiative if i recall. To get seniors included into it i'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say its gonna have to come from the feds as its outside the regular season guidelines (sept 25th thru jan 30th). That being said, I would love to see it's inception come from michigan if it has to be promoted to higher levels. I would also bring it up at our association and put the feelers out there to see if anyone had a major issue with it to us getting behind the idea.
> 
> I take a few older gentlemen out each year, winches make it a lot easier for us on the flats to get them out there. couple years ago i took a gentleman out that was 88yrs old. He literally never left my boat once i got him in there, called my boat a duckhunters ATV (he road the dike out while in boat). He gunned like a champ and had a blast. He shot a hen mallard that was banded on the last bird. one hunt i won't forget.


I am almost quite sure you are correct. Again, I am willing to ask at the August meeting, but I sure would not hold my breath.

Shikid, that hunt sounds awesome. You will never forget that one.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> I agree, that the link makes it "look like it COULD", but as Mike L. alluded too, its dealing with the Federal government and things are as clear as mud.
> 
> Please also pay very close attention to the comment:
> If a grandfathered State changes its zoning arrangement, it cannot go back to the grandfathered arrangement it previously had in place....


Having worked in politics and policy/rule making for most of my adult life, I'll read between the lines for you all...this is all about politics here. The world of politics is a strange and often mystical place. Just because the federal regs may say it's possible, doesn't mean it's likely. The DNRE staff have to do a very careful dance on this. If they open the door and start this discussion, there's a chance that the feds can get pissy and say "okay, we can talk...but you're existing status is gone now" Fair? No way in hell. But can it happen and does it happen? Damn straight! I can give you example after example of my personal dealings with the federal government on health care regulation, and how they play the game the way they want to play it, no matter what the formal regulations say.

So just be aware, our DNRE staff know the regs...and they know what's technically possible. But there is a very fine line here that they have to dance. And the DNRE again is looking to maximize our opportunities, and not lose anything that we've gained over the years.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> Having worked in politics and policy/rule making for most of my adult life, I'll read between the lines for you all...this is all about politics here. The world of politics is a strange and often mystical place. Just because the federal regs may say it's possible, doesn't mean it's likely. The DNRE staff have to do a very careful dance on this. If they open the door and start this discussion, there's a chance that the feds can get pissy and say "okay, we can talk...but you're existing status is gone now" Fair? No way in hell. But can it happen and does it happen? Damn straight! I can give you example after example of my personal dealings with the federal government on health care regulation, and how they play the game the way they want to play it, no matter what the formal regulations say.
> 
> So just be aware, our DNRE staff know the regs...and they know what's technically possible. But there is a very fine line here that they have to dance. And the DNRE again is looking to maximize our opportunities, and not lose anything that we've gained over the years.


EXACTLY!!!!!

I am going to go out on a limb, and play devil's advocate with the zone change issue as well. Putting aside the effects that zone changes could possibly have on the future, mostly in regards to setting season during a restrictive frame work, I ask this of those that want to take the chance and change the zones.

Do you really think that the season frame work, given a 60day season, for the south zone would change even if the bay was placed in zone 2?

I doubt it, and here is why:
1- The DNRE has survey data, which has been mentioned many times over the years, that says that the majority of hunters(that 30,000+ that don't hunt in the cold, and most likely don't visit this site,as this thread has only had about 1300 views since it started) prefer to have the season start as early as possible to take advantage of the local raised ducks and the remaining teal and wood ducks. And from a friend in the DNR, there is harvest data that supports this as well. Earlier openers see increased bags at check points, with many of those ducks being teal and woodies.

2- The same survey data also shows support for the late 2day duck season as well, again at least what has been mentioned in past years.

3- Couple the survey data(mostly from managed areas) that shows peak migrations to be in late October/early November with the law enforcement nightmare that a closure during those times would create(happened several years ago in zone 2), and you have very little support for a mid-season shutdown to get extented time in December.

4- Everyone is almost always concerned with loosing time at the end due to freezeup.

So, even if the bay were put back in zone 2, where does that put zone 3 when you take into account all of the issues that must be considered? Right back to what we currently have for a season.

Do I necessarily like it, NO! But the season setting isn't about me or the few hundred of us waterfowlers that visit this site, rather it is about the entire 40,000+ waterfowl hunters in the state and doing what is best all around for everyone.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Mike, thanks for finding that info on zoning. 


and gooseman- have to say, I'm smirking away over here. 
you're probably thinking you bit off more than you (want) to chew, but please know that we all appreciate you fielding the questions and interacting with the forum.

ready to resign yet?!! :evilsmile

buy you a beer sometime! I only drink the good stuff, so I hope you like fine, Canadian Pilsners!!


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Branta said:


> Mike, thanks for finding that info on zoning.
> 
> 
> and gooseman- have to say, I'm smirking away over here.
> ...


6 pages in and its still on topic...I think goose should get an award!


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

Ducky gave a "very" good response to what is really going on here.
Dealing with these people..(Federal Gov.) is just beyond common sense at times. Having been there, believe me when I say that .....as nicely as I can ?
These people can be flat out ignorant....with attitudes !

In light of the oil spill in the Gulf, IMO attempting a tweak in the zones at this
time ? We could very well cut our own throats, as we don't know how this is all going to play out etc. With the uncertainty of the whole "Big" picture ? I
think we should just make lemonade .....and I "Hate" that saying too......lol

I just don't think we should poke that stick in the calm bee hive right now.......


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

I must say, the *THANK YOU* goes out to everyone that has been involved in this thread. I appreciate the civility that has been shown through out this entire thread. I also appreciate all the help in answering and clearing up questions that has come from others during this thread as well. I also appreciate all of your appreciation.

Branta, any beer is fine with me, I find the conversation and company to me the most important aspect, the beer just tops that off.

Anyone can feel free to look me up if you are at the Bay City show, as I will be there. I will obviuosly be starting Saturday at the CWAC meeting which is at the Bangor Township Hall starting at 9am. Open to the public, so feel free to come. From there I plan on going to the show for the rest of the day and Sunday morning. I will plan on wearing my orange NAVHDA shirt and Delta waterfowl hat, which should make me easy to find.

As far as biting off more than I can chew or wanting to resign. Not a chance. I knew going into this that it "could" go south in hury, but wanted to give it a chance. I am sure that the south boundness of threads like this has kept other CWAC members from interacting very much in the past. I am just hoping to try and de-muddy things for others, just as they have been for me.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Mike L said:


> Ducky gave a "very" good response to what is really going on here.
> Dealing with these people..(Federal Gov.) is just beyond common sense at times. Having been there, believe me when I say that .....as nicely as I can ?
> These people can be flat out ignorant....with attitudes !....


Mike,

And it goes way beyond even being ignorant or arrogant. To say that the way the federal government operates is beyond common sense is also putting it mildly. The regional office I used to deal with is in Chicago, and OMG...Being a state and local government veteran, it pains me to say that many federal civil servants that I've dealt with over the last 27 years, and there have been many, are just downright....um...."out of their league" to put it mildly. Don't know what it is about working for the feds that does brain damage :evilsmile I know two people personally who jumped from state to federal government, and they both turned into absolute idiots!!! I expect that the fish and wildlife staff that the DNRE works with regularly are no different.

Okay...enough fed bashing. my bad...my bad  Sorry guys.... back to subject.


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

Another thanks from me, Mike, for finding the zoning info. It basically confirmed what I _thought_ it to be. It _appears_ that we could move the bay without affecting grandfathered status, but like others have said, I do not believe it is worth the risk; and I just don't care about moving the bay that much! I think in our state the ability to have splits in each zone is imperative, and we cannot risk losing that ability. What would be nice is the ability to have 4-zones with a split in each - too bad we didn't make _that move_ before the current rules were enacted! In a state as tall as Michigan is north to south, climate and freeze up dates vary an awful lot. As I said before, Illinois is petitioning for 4-zones for the 2011-2016 period, because their state is also 450 miles north to south. My guess is that they will be denied, but even if they are approved, I don't think they'll be allowed to have splits in their zones. I'd take our 3-zones with a split over having 4-zones without a split any day of the week anyhow. It's just best not to make waves with the Feds.

Thanks also Gooseman for your input on this thread. It always amazes me how these threads can go south, and I really appreciate the fact that this one hasn't (yet...?).


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Shlwego said:


> As I said before, Illinois is petitioning for 4-zones for the 2011-2016 period, because their state is also 450 miles north to south. My guess is that they will be denied, but even if they are approved, I don't think they'll be allowed to have splits in their zones. I'd take our 3-zones with a split over having 4-zones without a split any day of the week anyhow. It's just best not to make waves with the Feds..


if you get 4 zones you don't need splits. even if we came down to a 30 day season...

Now if i sat in a state that was a resting area (no migration...i.e. Arkyland) for the winter...splits make sense. 

hope Illinois gets it, i think michigan should be right on that badwagon the following year trying to get 4 zones itself. 

1. U.P
2. Northern Lower
3. Se michigan
4. Sw michigan

no splits, each zone opening a week later than previous. Se hunts into december and Sw hunts well into december.


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## highcaliberconsecrator (Oct 16, 2009)

goosemanrdk said:


> I will obviuosly be starting Saturday at the CWAC meeting which is at the Bangor Township Hall starting at 9am. Open to the public, so feel free to come. From there I plan on going to the show for the rest of the day and Sunday morning. I will plan on wearing my orange NAVHDA shirt and Delta waterfowl hat, which should make me easy to find.


We need to talk dogs, I had no idea you are a member...!


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> if you get 4 zones you don't need splits. even if we came down to a 30 day season...
> 
> Now if i sat in a state that was a resting area (no migration...i.e. Arkyland) for the winter...splits make sense.
> 
> ...


I like that idea as well. But, I think selling it is going to be difficult. According to my friend in the DNR even opening 1 week later than we currently do makes a HUGE difference in the opening day takes according to the harvest check data he has looked at from the past. And the huge difference is comprised in a significant decrease in the harvest of the early migrants, teal and woodducks, by the later opener.

But hey, anything is possible.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

highcaliberconsecrator said:


> We need to talk dogs, I had no idea you are a member...!


Not a member. My former father-in-law is and trials and judges dogs. Got the T-shirt from him awhile back. Figured if I wore it that day, I would stick out and be easy to recognize.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> Not a member. My former father-in-law is and trials and judges dogs. Got the T-shirt from him awhile back. Figured if I wore it that day, I would stick out and be easy to recognize.


'pozer! :evil:

~~~~
I'm going to have to educate myself on the Illinois reg change proposal. having lived (and hunted) there, I'm not sure why they'd think they stand a chance of gaining 4 from the current three.


as for our 4 zone split, it's probably along the same lines and an uphill push when you consider that there's always movement (both at state and fed levels) to uncomplicate rules.

~~~~

a lil bird passed this info on for those that are interested in the types of questions asked in the hunter surveys conducted by the MDNRe :

MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES, WILDLIFE DIVISION
PO BOX 30030 LANSING MI 48909-7530
2009-2010 WATERFOWL HARVEST REPORT
This information is requested under authority of Part 435, 1994 PA 451, M.C.L. 324.43539.

It is important that you complete this questionnaire even if you did not hunt any waterfowl. Please report only your hunting activities and the birds that you harvested. 
1. Did you hunt ducks or geese in Michigan from September 1, 2009, through January 31, 2010 (2009-2010 hunting season)?
1 0 Yes. Please complete the table below and answer questions on next page.
2 0 No. Skip all of the remaining questions and return questionnaire.
SEASON SEGMENT
(Check box if you hunted during the season. Note the duck season is divided into two segments and goose season divided into three segments. Dates and areas of each segment listed below.)	COUNTY HUNTED 
(For each season you hunted, list the counties hunted on separate lines.)

MANAGEMENT ZONE (See figure on last page for zone boundaries.)	
DAYS HUNTED 
NUMBER OF BIRDS TAKEN	
LAND TYPE
North (UP)
Middle (NLP)
South (SLP)

Private	Public	Both

First Portion of Regular Season
Sept 26  Nov 20 (North Zone)
Oct 3  Nov. 29 (Middle Zone)
Oct 10  Dec 6 (South Zone)	

Duck 
Final Portion of Regular Season (2-4 days only) 
Nov 26-29 (North Zone)
Dec 5-6 (Middle Zone)
Jan 2-3 (South Zone)	

Goose
Early Season 
Sept 1-10 (North Zone)
Sept 1-15 (Middle Zone)
Sept 1-15 (South Zone)

Regular Season
Sept 16-Oct 30 (North Zone)
Oct 3-Nov 9 & Nov 26-Dec 2 (Middle)
Oct 10-Nov 12 & Nov 26-Dec 6 (South)

Late Season
Jan 2-31 (South Zone)	

2.	Please indicate how satisfied or dissatisfied you were with the following for the 2009-2010 waterfowl hunting season and hunting regulations: (Select one choice per item.) 

a.. Number of ducks you saw.	
Very Satisfied 
Somewhat Satisfied
Neutral
Somewhat Dissatisfied
Strongly Dissatisfied 
Not Applicable


b. Number of ducks you harvested.	
Very Satisfied 
Somewhat Satisfied
Neutral
Somewhat Dissatisfied
Strongly Dissatisfied 
Not Applicable

c. Your overall duck hunting experience.	
Very Satisfied 
Somewhat Satisfied
Neutral
Somewhat Dissatisfied
Strongly Dissatisfied 
Not Applicable

d. Duck season dates.	
Very Satisfied 
Somewhat Satisfied
Neutral
Somewhat Dissatisfied
Strongly Dissatisfied 
Not Applicable

e. The number of days in the duck season.	
Very Satisfied 
Somewhat Satisfied
Neutral
Somewhat Dissatisfied
Strongly Dissatisfied 
Not Applicable

f. The size of the daily duck limit.	
Very Satisfied 
Somewhat Satisfied
Neutral
Somewhat Dissatisfied
Strongly Dissatisfied 
Not Applicable

g. Number of geese you saw.	
Very Satisfied 
Somewhat Satisfied
Neutral
Somewhat Dissatisfied
Strongly Dissatisfied 
Not Applicable

h. Number of geese you harvested.	
Very Satisfied 
Somewhat Satisfied
Neutral
Somewhat Dissatisfied
Strongly Dissatisfied 
Not Applicable

i. Your overall goose hunting experience.	
Very Satisfied 
Somewhat Satisfied
Neutral
Somewhat Dissatisfied
Strongly Dissatisfied 
Not Applicable

3.	What is your preferred zone to hunt ducks in Michigan? (Check one choice.)
1 0 North Zone (Upper Peninsula)	
2 0 Middle Zone (Northern Lower Peninsula)	
3 0 South Zone (Southern Lower Peninsula)

4.	For your preferred zone to hunt ducks, as in the previous question, please indicate the opening date you would prefer for that zone for the 2010-2011 duck season. (Check one.)
1 0 Sept. 25
2 0 October 2
3 0 October 9
4 0 October 16
5 0 Undecided
6 0 Other:______

5.	Did you serve as a mentor or primary person helping another individual to become a waterfowl hunter during the 2010-2011 waterfowl seasons?
1 0 Yes
2 0 No

6.	If you are a youth, did you hunt during Michigan's Youth Waterfowl Hunting weekend (September 19-20, 2009)?
1 0 Yes
2 0 No

7.	If you are an adult, how many youth did you take waterfowl hunting during Michigan's Youth Waterfowl Hunting weekend (September 19-20, 2009)?
None, skip to Question No. 9

Record the number of youth :

8.	How many of the youth that you took hunting during Michigans Youth Waterfowl Hunting weekend (September 19-20, 2009) were family members (for example, child, step-child, grandchild, etc.)?
0 None
Record the number of youth :

9.	What would be your preferred weekend for the Federal Youth Waterfowl Weekend hunt in 2010? (Check one choice.)
1 Sept. 11-12
2 Sept. 18-19
3 Undecided
4 Eliminate season
5 Other:__________


should have some data coming in on the results here . Like any good informant, you have to keep them greased and this one can put away the sliders, so hang tight!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> ...hope Illinois gets it, i think michigan should be right on that badwagon the following year trying to get 4 zones itself...


Which is exactly why my guess is the feds have already decided in their mind they aren't going to go for it, NO MATTER HOW MUCH SENSE IT MAKES. Why? Because it would mean they'll get flooded with similar requests, which equates to a ton of work, and slogging through a ton of red tape for some federal staffers. Never say never, but I'm just sayin there's a better chance of the Lions winning the super bowl :lol:


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> if you get 4 zones you don't need splits. even if we came down to a 30 day season...
> 
> Now if i sat in a state that was a resting area (no migration...i.e. Arkyland) for the winter...splits make sense.
> 
> ...


I am betting the problem would be the Feds are worried I will go hit all four openings and harvest will increase..... I don't shoot enough ducks during the season for them to worry about. If I get the one or two weks longer into Dec.. I will most likley add 12 more to the years harvest. I would be a much more satisfied customer, and I would gladly stay in MI to hunt and spend my tourism dollars here. Now I look for out of state oppurtunities... becasue when the ducks are here in SW MI in any numbers the season is closed. 

Let me clairfy one thing, if the majority of the ducks came to SW MI in August, you can bet your butt I would be advocating for the season to be all of August and Sept, take my 60 days there. My feelings are, give me the oppurtunity to have more quaility hunts that I can remember and tell stories about. Take more new people out so they can see why I have the passion, the addiciton. When I take them out and they see a few flocks of 20 birds flying out at first light and nothing much left..... they tell me I got the sickness alright....

Rob, thanks for answering my questions, I appreciate it. And if I ever sounded unappreciative, it was not intential, it is my computer skills I lack, and typing skills. I won't type with my trigger finger...


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

'POZER' :yikes:

Well, if wearing the brightest colored T-shirt shirt I own, that not a lot of others will most likely be wearing and happens to have the symbol of an organization I don't belong to on it, all in the effort to meet some of the fine folks from this site makes me a, "pozer". 

Then I am a pozer, and you will like it. lol :evilsmile


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Bellyup said:


> I am betting the problem would be the Feds are worried I will go hit all four openings and harvest will increase..... I don't shoot enough ducks during the season for them to worry about. If I get the one or two weks longer into Dec.. I will most likley add 12 more to the years harvest. I would be a much more satisfied customer, and I would gladly stay in MI to hunt and spend my tourism dollars here. Now I look for out of state oppurtunities... becasue when the ducks are here in SW MI in any numbers the season is closed.
> 
> Let me clairfy one thing, if the majority of the ducks came to SW MI in August, you can bet your butt I would be advocating for the season to be all of August and Sept, take my 60 days there. My feelings are, give me the oppurtunity to have more quaility hunts that I can remember and tell stories about. Take more new people out so they can see why I have the passion, the addiciton. When I take them out and they see a few flocks of 20 birds flying out at first light and nothing much left..... they tell me I got the sickness alright....
> 
> Rob, thanks for answering my questions, I appreciate it. And if I ever sounded unappreciative, it was not intential, it is my computer skills I lack, and typing skills. I won't type with my trigger finger...


Belly, you have never even come close saying or sounding unappreciative. I am more offended by the fact that JD took this thread south by mentioning the Lions and winning the super bowl in the same sentence in this thread. :lol::evil::evilsmile

I hear ya, and agree with you on most things. I do sit on the fence as far as SW Mich ducks "being here when the season is closed". Are they truley here, or is this a phenomenon of the fact that the season is closed and the birds aren't getting pounded every day. Not sure, I think it is a little of both. From experience, it is hard for me ignore the fact that if you take high pressure areas like MWW and Fennville, and compare how the birds, geese, behave during season vs post season. Well during season MWW geese will not let you stop within 200yards of them while in a field, yet give them 1-2weeks after season, and you can practically park next to them. Same with Fennville, during season the birds are packed in the center of the refuge, yet give them a coule of weeks off and they are feeding right in the hunting zones. So this arguement gains a lot of validity for me.

Either way, it most likely doesn't matter as there is a huge preference by the majority to have the season favor the early part vs the latter part of the season, so guys like you, me, the regulars on this site and the rest of the diehards have to deal with what the majority wants as we are the minority. Democracy at its finest.

No matter what we have for a season, I am hunting every chance that I can, with whomever I can, for whatever I can.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> Belly, you have never even come close saying or sounding unappreciative. I am more offended by the fact that JD took this thread south by mentioning the Lions and winning the super bowl in the same sentence in this thread. :lol::evil::evilsmile....


:lol: I thought everyone missed that little tidbit! And I stand by my statement about the odds being better for the Lions 

But I digress...back to your orginal topic, which by the way has maintained the most civil discussion I think I've ever seen here :evilsmile


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## donbtanner (Sep 26, 2007)

just ducky said:


> Mike,
> 
> To say that the way the federal government operates is beyond common sense is also putting it mildly. The regional office I used to deal with is in Chicago, and OMG...Being a state and local government veteran, it pains me to say that many federal civil servants that I've dealt with over the last 27 years, and there have been many, are just downright....um...."out of their league" to put it mildly. Don't know what it is about working for the feds that does brain damage :evilsmile I know two people personally who jumped from state to federal government, and they both turned into absolute idiots!!!


Couldn't have been said any better........... I will get back on subject now(figuring out a way I can pop some mutes) with saying this to ad to JD's post:

And these are the people who want to run health care, fix the economy, clean up an oil spill, etc., etc........ with your tax dollars!?!?!?!? 

just sayin............


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## waxico (Jan 21, 2008)

In a theoretical intellectual excercise, one might wait for a moonlit night, take a punt boat out with a .177 pellet rifle and scope.
Swift, Silent, Deadly....

They stand out like barn doors, and it's easy to get within lethal range.

Field clean, breast, shovel.

It's one of those dreams I have if I were an outlaw, but I don't have the guts, and I'm too darn ethical....


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## donbtanner (Sep 26, 2007)

waxico said:


> In a theoretical intellectual excercise, one might wait for a moonlit night, take a punt boat out with a .177 pellet rifle and scope.
> Swift, Silent, Deadly....
> 
> They stand out like barn doors, and it's easy to get within lethal range.
> ...


Thats a good one, here is what my dream mute hunt, of course only if it were legal or I got the OK from the black ops guys..........

You know the raft of those things off Strawberry Is. I am sure....... to peel around on a black jetski on a pitch dark night w\ night vision gear and a samauri sword, @ about 45 mph laying waste to those longnecks like Gingas Khan or the Berzerkers......... 

Of course, only in a theoretical, intellectual sense................


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## Ruger-44 (Apr 2, 2009)

donbtanner said:


> Thats a good one, here is what my dream mute hunt, of course only if it were legal or I got the OK from the black ops guys..........
> 
> You know the raft of those things off Strawberry Is. I am sure....... to peel around on a black jetski on a pitch dark night w\ night vision gear and a samauri sword, @ about 45 mph laying waste to those longnecks like Gingas Khan or the Berzerkers.........
> 
> Of course, only in a theoretical, intellectual sense................


Can I tag along on that trip? Because that sounds like FUN! :evil:


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

of course...all "theoretical" from both of you guys  but just in case it isn't all a dream in Waxico's mind, I'm gonna search YouTube once in a while for the video :evilsmile


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

just ducky said:


> of course...all "theoretical" from both of you guys  but just in case it isn't all a dream in Waxico's mind, I'm gonna search YouTube once in a while for the video :evilsmile


You shouldn't have to wait to long for the video. I think we have a full moon coming up this weekend/early next week.


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

What's sad is the fact that we have an invasive species on our hands that we cannot treat like all the other invasive species. Hogs? Kill 'em all with full DNRE blessing. Zebra and Quagga mussels? "Please stop their spread." Phragmites, Loosestrife and Garlic Mustard? If they're on your property "Please get rid of them," and the MSU Agricultural Extension will tell you the best way. Gobies and Ruffes? Throw 'em up on the bank to die. God forbid we get Asian Carp? I'm sure it will be "Kill them with reckless abandon." But Mute Swans?? "No you can't shoot them, No you can't harass them, No you can't addle their eggs." This is not right, nor is it in line with invasive species policy in general. I say, issue "Population Control Licences" to qualified hunters who can pass a test proving that they know the difference between Mutes and Trumpeters, put a bounty on Mutes, and wipe them out! Kill them any way you choose, so long as they're dead! 

And the "they're beautiful birds and it's not their fault they're here" crowd can bugger off!!! :evilsmile


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shlwego said:


> ...I say, issue "Population Control Licences" to qualified hunters who can pass a test proving that they know the difference between Mutes and Trumpeters, put a bounty on Mutes, and wipe them out! Kill them any way you choose, so long as they're dead!...


I won't say it too loudly  but in all honesty that's about where we're at right now...it's just kept on the verrrrrrrry low key. Obviously the feds won't give each of us that permission, but the DNRE has gotten limited permission, and if you have a particular problem area, I suggest you let the DNRE manager for the area know because they are "handling" :evilsmile a lot of them as we speak. And I hear the breast steaks are delicious :yikes: But you didn't hear it from me


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

What he said. :evilsmile 

I hear they don't react too well to a .223 round either, but you didn't hear that from me.


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## waxico (Jan 21, 2008)

The Duece Duece Trey makes too much noise, and where I am there are too many nosy neighbors on Harsens minding everyone's business.

Remember: Swift, Silent, Deadly....

If no one sees/hears it, it never happened....


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

waxico said:


> The Duece Duece Trey makes too much noise, and where I am there are too many nosy neighbors on Harsens minding everyone's business.
> 
> Remember: Swift, Silent, Deadly....
> 
> If no one sees/hears it, it never happened....


I agree about the .223. Just relaying something that I may have heard.

I am with you on tactics, Hear no Evil, See no Evil, Speak no Evil.:evilsmile


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## FullBody (Nov 4, 2008)

Really makes me wonder....there is a particular northern MI lake that used to have a major swan problem. Now when I fish there I only see a couple. Hhhhrrmmm.....ne_eye:


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## Ruger-44 (Apr 2, 2009)

I wish the DNRE would get on the program around Kalamazoo/Portage area. There's a couple lakes around here just loaded with mutes. The bad thing is those lakes used to be pretty fair duck and goose lakes.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

Here is a question for ya... After hunting up in Big Rapids for quite a long while now, why is the zone 2 split season always the weekend of the last weekend in the southern zone?? Can't these weekends be staggered so that we can enjoy the last weekend in the south, and a "late season" hunt in the middle. 

just a thought


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

I see the Michigan goose population is on the rise again. Has there been any talk of increasing the goose season? 
It would seem to help reduce the local goose numbers if the season was open during the later part of September as in the past. 
I'm fine with the way it was last year. I thought it might/would help control the population if we hunted them more before the migrants arrive.


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

hunting man said:


> I see the Michigan goose population is on the rise again. Has there been any talk of increasing the goose season?
> It would seem to help reduce the local goose numbers if the season was open during the later part of September as in the past.
> I'm fine with the way it was last year. I thought it might/would help control the population if we hunted them more before the migrants arrive.


Actually, I see the need to the expansion in the late season. A lot of migrants will show up the last week/weekend of the early season hunt, if you extend that into late September you run a higher risk of killing more migrants. 

Where as the late season hunt, I feel its about 90% residents who hang around in the late season... if not more. IMO if you really want to tackle the nuisance goose problem, extend or expand the late season rather than the early


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Ruger-44 said:


> I wish the DNRE would get on the program around Kalamazoo/Portage area. There's a couple lakes around here just loaded with mutes. The bad thing is those lakes used to be pretty fair duck and goose lakes.


As has been said and eluded too:

1-Mutes are being worked on and several have even said they have seen the effects, as in places that mutes are suddenly gone. have you checked out the Wolf Lake fish hatchery? I hear they are all but gone from there.

2-It is not as easy as you would like it to be. Even though they are an invassive/non-native species care must be taken in how they are handeled. Do I like it, NO!!!!!!!! But I understand and respect the fact that to the non-hunting community, swans have "glamor and majesty" associated with them. Remember the doves, I am betting it is going to be even worse with swans, as the general public doesn't know didley about the difference between Mutes, Tundra's and Trumpeters. If the lakes down there are anything like the lakes up by me, they are surrounded by lots of Big Expensive homes, not like the DNRE can just go in and start shooting. Madia/political nightmare.

Again, It is beeing worked on as we in CWAC asked for the DNRE to form a workgroup with CWAC representation to investigate all feasable options.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Actually, I see the need to the expansion in the late season. A lot of migrants will show up the last week/weekend of the early season hunt, if you extend that into late September you run a higher risk of killing more migrants.
> 
> Where as the late season hunt, I feel its about 90% residents who hang around in the late season... if not more. IMO if you really want to tackle the nuisance goose problem, extend or expand the late season rather than the early



Yes it is on the rise, but is yet to be to epic proportions that need drastic control. I see that you understand the ramifications of the later september seasons. The late september season we had in the past were a result of significant decreases in the migratory population, not as a means to control local goose populations. This facilitated a decrease in migrant harvest and an increase in resident harvest.

Also, remember that in the last 5 years we went through a period where we actually had to decrease our harvest, through having a 3 bird limit, of resident geese. So, yes the numbers are increasing, but are they to a level to start investigating expanded seasons/increased limits? Probably not. If/when the DNRE feels they are, trust me, they will prompt us on CWAC to investigate and look at the options. Until then, they are the scientists/biologists and we must work within what they feel is necessary for the population. There is only so much "cowboying" that we can do.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Ferris_StateHunter said:


> Here is a question for ya... After hunting up in Big Rapids for quite a long while now, why is the zone 2 split season always the weekend of the last weekend in the southern zone?? Can't these weekends be staggered so that we can enjoy the last weekend in the south, and a "late season" hunt in the middle.
> 
> just a thought



I can't speak to the ramifications behind that, as my term started this spring, and I was not involved in season setting last year. I can only speculate as the the reasons why:
Freeze up risk?
Survey data?
Sounded good?
Like I said, I don't know why on this. But, I like your thoughts, and feel that they are VERY VALID. I will try to talk with some of the Northern lower reps and see what I can find out, and will even mention this during discussions at the meeting in August.


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## Shlwego (Sep 13, 2006)

Regarding Mute Swans....



just ducky said:


> Obviously the feds won't give each of us that permission, but the DNRE has gotten limited permission....


See, that right there is the problem. I understand what you're saying Dan, and I'm glad there's somnething being done, but why in God's green earth should we have to have Federal _"permission"_ to eradicate an invasive species? This shouldn't even be an issue. They don't belong in Michigan, they don't belong in the U.S., they don't belong in North freakin' America, and yet....even the DNRE has to have Federal *"permission"* to get rid of them?!? That's just absolutely ridiculous. And you're saying we should be HAPPY that the DNRE has secured "permission" to kill a few of them on a limited basis???? I guess so, but only because it's better than killing none at all. The bottom line is that the whole Mute Swan policy just doesn't make any sense. The Feds shouldn't even have a say in the matter beyond perhaps saying something like "they're invasive, and we *expect* that each state will take all possible steps to make sure they're eliminated." Mute Swans are NOT covered by the migratory bird treaty, so again, _*why is it even an issue*_ with the Federal regulators?????

[Sorry for the rant, but you might just get the feeling I don't like Mute Swans, huh?]:evilsmile

I'm not really sure how the CWAC could influence this, but it'd be nice if something more than DNRE control of "problem areas" was possible, and if we could push that kind of thing with them, maybe Mute Swan numbers would actually begin to go down.....


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Shlwego said:


> Regarding Mute Swans....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not disagreeing with you at all. I know this is awfully hard to swallow for citizens, but I'm just saying that sometimes it's more effective to play the fed's game than to try to fight them, which is what the DNRE staff are doing. Some would call it "defeatist" to just go along with the feds, and I'm not saying the state's don't argue their case. But you have to also understand that the federal government is the hand that feeds state agencies, and ultimately us the citizens. Anyone ever dealt in-depth with the VA? Or the CMS? You think the FWS people are bad, you ain't seen nothing. I've seen it time after time in my day job, going to federal meetings, listening to the BS that the feds often spew, and shaking my head. 

Which goes right back to the original discussion about why we have to live with our "grandfathered" status for waterfowl seasons here in Michigan. Could we push it and gamble? Sure. But are the odds stacked against us? Yep. I may be biased because of my knowledge of the federal govt, but I trust that the DNRE staff are looking out for us, and they are pushing the limits with the feds when it makes sense to do so.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Shlwego said:


> Regarding Mute Swans....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This what the FEDS have done. Mute swans were de-listed from anything, classified as invassive and control WAS turned over to the states. Now, just because that all happened, doesn't mean that the DNRE can just go and start executing every last swan in the state. Well, TECHNICALLY they could, but can you even imagine the media/political firestorm that would create. Remember the doves?

Do I like that it has to be this way, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But I sure do understand and more importantly respect that this is the way it has to be done. While you would like for the problem to be solved overnight; I hate to be the bearer of bad news, that is NOT going to happen and all you can do is accept that fact. It is being worked on and will eventually be solved, but the DNRE is doing what is best for our interest, while having to do the political/media dance that they face everyday.


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