# Springer or Griffon



## stevebrandle (Jan 23, 2000)

Griffons are called the gentleman's gundog. It's because they don't range. 

Other pointers are fine if you're on horseback.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

muckdog said:


> I'd say they are very easy to train.....if you get one with British blood your odds of getting one that's easy to train with tons of natural ability are very high....I wouldn't say they work slower in fact they are very snappy but work in gun range....I'd go British bred English Cocker before springer...but that's just me.....and I've had springers before....
> 
> Range is definitely something you can alter...


Jim,

Late to this bc/ I've been out hunting the past couple of days. But I'll add a couple of thoughts. 

First you need to figure out what you want, a FD or a pointy type dog. I've owned, trained and hunted over many of both types of bird dog. It's like chocolate or strawberry ice cream, I like both, but not at the same time.

That said, now, speaking of FBECS specifically, MD has nailed it down pretty well. I have a pair of fieldbred ECS, both males, and they are in the 33-35# range before the season. They both came out of the womb with pretty much all of what you need for a close cover grouse/wc dog _already "built-in", not mostly "add-on" later through years of training in the grouse woods._ They will happily go into water and I know some who are used for small water puddle duck hunting to good effect. They are not a Chesapeake Bay dog nor should you expect them to be.

Second, I do not run after dogs in the woods, ever, mine or anybody elses. The most running that I've ever seen in the grouse woods is PD owners running after their dogs who have just busted a bird or to get to a point before the bird flushes. And I started hunting grouse in New England over PDs in 1965, you guys do the math. As a HS instructor, running with a loaded gun in the woods is a cardinal sin and I wont tolerate it for one minute. Its a gun accident just waiting to happen. :rant: IME, a good fieldbred ESS, with longer legs, will run bigger and faster in the woods than a ECS. Range is simply a matter of training and control as MD has stated.

Jim, if interested, you are welcome to come up and see these dogs go. But we will be hunting Out West next week.

NB


----------



## muckdog (Mar 13, 2006)

NATTY BUMPO said:


> Jim,
> 
> Late to this bc/ I've been out hunting the past couple of days. But I'll add a couple of thoughts.
> 
> ...


Very well said Natty! I was hoping you'd chime in.....


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

> IME, a good fieldbred ESS, with longer legs, will run bigger and faster in the woods than a ECS. Range is simply a matter of training and control as MD has stated.
> 
> 
> Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Springer or Griffon - Page 3 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352842&page=3#ixzz13Bd5ouDD[/QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## Scott Meats (Oct 23, 2010)

If you decide on a springer, check out Hellfire Springers (google). I bought 1 last year and she is now 11 mos. old. I have owned 5 other springers and she is better now than any one of my others ever achieved.I have had her worked by a pro and he tells me she is outstanding, and worth every penny I paid for her.I did my research and hellfire springers get nothing but excellent reveiws. I would buy another in a heartbeat.


----------



## JAM (Mar 30, 2000)

I have springers and participate in spaniel hunt tests so I get to watch the little "pocket rocket" ECS's hunt. They're so amazing that I might just have to get one someday. But IMO I don't think they're well suited to duck hunting. Yes, they'll retrieve from water but that's not what they're bred for. The ESS's are better suited for water retrieves but I don't think they'd do well in the real cold, late season duck hunts. They don't have the coat that labs and Chessies have. I don't know anything about WPG's - just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on the spaniels.


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Hey guys thanks for all the awesome input and info. Sorry it took me so long to respond, I was on the road to Lake City last night to meet up with the crew and then on to Drummond today. You guys have some really good advice and ideas and as soon as I am back I will be trying to get out to see some dogs to help with the final decision. All the input and education has gotten me fired up to make the next step.

N.B. I think you took me a little to literally on the running part (I have not ran with a gun since I was 14 and tripped in a marsh and my uncle put my gun in the rack for the rest of the season) I just prefer to hunt at my pace and not the dogs. But it was great advice and it's nice to see someone reinforcing saftey.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Jim58 said:


> N.B. I think you took me a little to literally on the running part (I have not ran with a gun since I was 14 and tripped in a marsh and my uncle put my gun in the rack for the rest of the season) I just prefer to hunt at my pace and not the dogs. But it was great advice and it's nice to see someone reinforcing saftey.


Jim, 

I LIKE the way your uncle thinks. You remembered that safety lesson well, didnt you?

Keep this in mind, a ESS, ECS, AWS, etc is a gun dog ie. they hunt to and for the gun. You take them through the cover you think will hold birds and then they will find them and produce them in front of the gun. A well broke FD will hunt at _your pace _, always within gun range and keep an eye on you at all times in the bargain. A good one will quarter the ground naturally. Others can be broke to do so.

A pointer, setter, Britt, WPG or other is a bird dog, and its a different deal. Much more independence is allowed and even desired. They run until they find birds and then point and hold until you get there, no matter how long it takes. You go to them and you follow them. Range and speed will differ greatly among breeds and between dogs.

Like I said before, you really need to decide what you want ie. a gun dog or a bird dog. Its an entirely different way of hunting birds. Just some idle thoughts on a rainy Sat evening.

NB


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

NB, Given all the input from yourself and others I can tell I will be spending alot of time watching the decoys and thinking about dogs this week. I think your description of a gun dog is what I am used in years past and I may just be trying to convince myself I want something other than a ESS or possibly an ECS instead of just going with my heart, getting some help picking the right dog, and some professional training and enjoy what I have.

Raining on the island too.

Jim


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Jim58 said:


> NB, Given all the input from yourself and others I can tell I will be spending alot of time watching the decoys and thinking about dogs this week. I think your description of a gun dog is what I am used in years past and I may just be trying to convince myself I want something other than a ESS or possibly an ECS instead of just going with my heart, getting some help picking the right dog, and some professional training and enjoy what I have.
> 
> Raining on the island too.
> 
> Jim


Why not look into a small athletic labrador? They wont be as turn key as the Cockers though, and could take some training on range in the uplands. But they will make a fantastic meat dog with basic training on ducks and exposure to upland.

You can even find one that points if your heart desires and the pointing labs will have a similiar range to the Griff's in the uplands.


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

A lab is not on the short list my wife agreed to (she thinks they shed to much). A chocolate was on my list but did not make her cut. It consisted of ESS, WHPG, AWS, and a Golden Ret. (I thought they shed alot also?). I narrowed it down to ESS and WHPG and then we both added ECS after looking at info from here.


----------



## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Looks like you need to decide on a flusher or pointer.

Griff












Hound says pointer.:evilsmile


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

There you go Griff trying to keep me confused. Actually thats not your fault it's part of my original equipment.


----------



## stevebrandle (Jan 23, 2000)

Griff's may becoming the Democrats in this thread, but they're photo-friendly.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Steve,

LUV that pic w/ yr Griff, the roosters and the split rail fence! Great stuff.

NB


----------



## Rysalka (Aug 13, 2008)

Get one of each, Springer/Cocker for one type of cover and ability
Griff/Drach for the other types of cover and ability.

Just take the wife to a couple of breeder that have puppies and can provide you with good blood lines and type dog you want and have her choose the puppy.

Just as easy to house train two as one...think of all the training/reading you'll get to do.

Two dogs you can extend your hunting day...and not end up hunting a tired dog...


----------



## FSHHNTR (Mar 7, 2007)

There's no question all of us on this forum with a dog are bias and leaning to the breed they chose. Why? Because they are great dogs. I chose a Drahthaar because of the variety of pursuits I engage in. I love it all...Like the Draht there are several choices from the Wire Haired Viszla, GWP, WHPG, Munsterlander....and on and on..... I go everywhere with my dogs so they have to be mannerful and if my dogs are not allowed I don't go for the most part. I do see the benefit of flushers especially in the early part of the year when cover is thick but I like the more relaxed atmosphere of hunting behind a pointing dog especially now with the quiet Garmin Astro. I like a dog that is a retrieving machine and has the nose to take over where I lack as a handler, and I have really enjoyed the challange of blood tracking with a dog. You really get to know your dog when you take on this challenge. The Germans have efficiency down. They don't want a bunch of great specialized dogs they want one really good versitile dog. Less food, less maintenence, less space to keep, and closer bond. Every now and then when I want to go chase ***** at night or have the dog hold the net for me so I can land a steelie it works. Well, most of the time anyway. Almost lost the fish in the net a couple times cause she wanted to retrieve the fish!


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Great pics Griff and Steve!! Rysalka you may be on to something! A person can't go wrong if the wife picks them.
Fshhntr they do sound like great dogs. One thing I am finding out is no matter what way I go there is a ton of knowledge here to help keep me on the right track with the new dog.


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Don't let the size of the dog worry you.


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

That's it then a Yorkie is what I need.


----------



## windknot (Jul 22, 2001)

Oh...that's right...I've been out upland hunting with my very young 10 month old Griffon named Otis. 

I've got back problems (Surgery last December), weight problems, heart problems and get up off my aasssss and exercise problems ergo my initial interest in the Griffon - a closer ranging walking hunter's dog. 

My grandfather bred and trained English Setters and Pointers (along with other meat dogs such as beagles, Cockers etc) during the depression through the 60's - so my heart was really pulling me in different directions as I tried to decide which dog to buy. I was worried about what my father and grandfather both dead for many years now would think if I brought any dog home to hunt other than an English Setter or Pointer. 

I'm sure NOW that they'd be VERY pleased with my choice in going with a Griffon. (There was a very long emotional story here that I removed in the interest of brevity).

Jim originally stated the following: 



Jim58 said:


> I am not getting any younger and so have decided to replace my springer that I lost this summer with a new pup or started dog that has potential to make a good foot hunting companion.


I made the right decision because I chose a dog based on my physical and personal hunting needs - much like, no....exactly like buying a gun......You buy a gun that fits your physical stature, swings naturally and is in a caliber/gauge that is best suited for the particular game you are hunting. 

Here's what I can tell you about Otis, and the Breed in the short time I've had. He is the softest, most gentle dog I have ever owned, no one who has met him has not loved him and his personality (I know that doesn't count for a lot in the field, but it counts HUGE in the house, the lodge or at camp). He ranges out maybe....MAYBE 150 yards at the most - they naturally circle back and check in before going back out. In three days of hunting I maybe called him 5 times - just a quick "OAT" and he was back at my side withing 30 seconds....otherwise I was SILENT (I HATE hunting with guys that spend all their time yelling at their dogs) He has what pointing dog enthusiasts would describe as an unremarkable stance when he points - but when he does, it (to me at least) is a thing of true beauty. 

That was last week. This week he'll be sitting in a boat with me out on the bay near Fish Point hunting ducks....I'll have to tie him down in the boat though....he hasn't found a single body of water that he didn't feel the need to dive into and swim around in. Griffons have a very fine coat of wire hair on top and have a thick near-waterproof undercoat that keeps them warm in the water even into late season/winter swims - Otis' undercoat is filling in from the butt forward (it's about half way in now). Photos to follow - he looks a little silly with his Avery Boaters Hunting Vest, but it'll keep him toasty. 

Buy the dog that fits YOU best - I personally think that the Griffon MAY be the ticket - Hook up with #8 Shot - Bud's a good guy - DEFINITELY go to Phil and pick his brain - he's very highly respected in the Griffon community....and if you're considering buying a dog outside the USA (Canada) pm me I have a name for you to avoid. 

Sean and Otis


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Windknot,

Those are the exact reasons I am considering a Griffon. I have heard these merits repeated many times and felt a WPG would be a great fit for me. I am in the process of looking at what is available as far as ESS's and WPG's and hope to get a chance to see some of both to help with the final choice. If I do look at going to Canada I will be sure and pm you for your input. Otis sounds like a great dog and I hope to be as lucky with my final choice. Thanks for your thoughts.

Jim


----------



## tpdtom (Nov 3, 2010)

Hey Fellas,

This is my first post in this forum but after 50 years with bird dogs in Michigan, having owned many breeds, and observing all the previously mentioned breeds hunt and compete I feel very qualified to offer an opinion.

Honestly, I have never owned a flushing dog, but I admire both Springers and Cockers. The really talented ESS individuals that I have seen were on fire just like a lot of other dogs from most breeds. Those dogs are for a person willing to devote a lot of time in the training field. That is something that we all should do anyway but I suspect that the decision here revolves around a pup that comes out doing a lot naturally with cooperation and desire built in.

I've spent years in NAVHDA and the VDD-GNA. I had the opportunity to evaluate all the versatile breeds. I traveled to Germany to breed my fine German bred bitch and to hunt and train with Germans. Needless to say I learned a lot. The Deutche Drahthaar is the most popular hunting dog breed in Germany, in fact, last I knew their numbers eclipsed all other breeds combined. At this point I would like to mention that the Germans put much more emphasis on their dog's work "after the shot" than before. By that I mean that retrieving and recovery of all wounded game is paramount there. This is different from the USA where finding game comes first. Sometimes this shows in the Drahthaar especially.

If you were a typical American bird hunter I honestly don't think you could do better than a German Shorthaired Pointer, but they are not on your short list. They can tend to be a bit hyper but they point and retrieve game naturally in most cases given ample opportunity. The DD, or German Wirehair points also, although in many cases not as early or as staunchly as the Shorthair, but they excell in the waterwork, in retrieving especially, and can take the cold much better. They are the true 4 wheel drive of the versatile breeds. I'm sorry to say that while Griffons can be wonderful hunters they are not IMHO the odds on favorite these breeds are. The good ones are great but they are further and fewer between IMHO. They may be easier to handle in general due to tremendous cooperation or could it be lack of desire? I went many years in NAVHDA until I saw a fabulous Griffon while I saw great Shorthairs and Wirehairs every year !

I know I just made some Griffon devotees angry. For that I apologise. I am telling it like I saw it. Now at my advanced age I have English Setters and a Pointer, but I can't keep up with them afield. I just love their personalities and temperments. Go figure. A man should have what he likes. 

Last but not least, I want to make a comment based on 50 years experience and 40 years without missing a year taking a bird hunting trip SOMEWHERE ! The best hunting dogs I ever saw in my whole life were not the result of training. They were not generally the result of fabulous breeding, although both help immensely. The best dogs I ever saw were dogs that had the most opportunity. They had seen the most birds. They had birds killed over them all year every year of their life. They worked on Pheasants and Grouse, Woodcock and Quail, Sharptails and Huns, wild birds and birds on preserves. Those dogs could hunt :lol:. The best pheasant dog I ever saw was a German Shorthair who hardly ever went a day in her life without working a bird, and she lived in Detroit. Her owner took her to birds in the city every day. She had many thousands of birds shot over her in her life. She could find and handle birds when other good dogs could not ! She was an average backyard bred bitch with tons of opportunity.

I think if a guy buys a reasonably well bred hunting dog and does some basic obedience, and shows that dog a lot of birds he'll have a good bird dog. Good luck...Tom


----------



## stevebrandle (Jan 23, 2000)

Well Tom I really enjoyed reading your first post. If you're new, welcome, and if you've just been reading we're the poorer.

Please post more and make yourself at home here. :Welcome:


----------



## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Helluva first post Tom. Very refreshing from the typical first post, "where's the best place to grouse hunt in XXX County?" 

Welcome aboard.


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Tom...could not have put it any better!

birds birds birds birds birds!!!!


----------



## Michigander (Oct 8, 2001)

Tough to pass on a set of spaniel eyes staring back at you. We have had an ESS and now have a pair of AWS. All were/are great dogs and the ESS was an amazing water dog. Our male AWS is exactly what I was looking for in a field dog wonderfully easy going and rather slow in a pheasant field. Our female AWS is a bit high strung but we knew that when we got her as the breeder was a "breed for speed" hard charging get their first type. When the AWS's are gone I am sure we will be getting another ESS as my wife dearly loves those soft eyes. (so do I)

Jim I think I might have met you or one of your group in the parking lot of the Cedar Pantry last week in Cedarville.


----------



## METRO1 (Oct 8, 2009)

Field bred english spring or cocker can t go wrong, do it all dogs, ducks to upland, i have a litter of very well bred cockers now, if interested let me know


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Tom Thanks for the great post. Every time I read a post on here I learn things I didn't know or confirm things I thought I knew, or find out I had no clue. One thing I think I am discovering is what you pointed out in your last statement, if I get a dog I am happy with, make sure of good breeding, put effort into training, and treat it with respect I will be well on the way to having the hunting companion I am looking for. As far as a GSP goes I'm not sure why they aren't on my short list (I actually considered a rescue that was on this forum) other than the few I have been around seem to have been very high strung and I am not sure how they would be around my wife's small dog and the small grandchildren. Anyhow when I finally quit over thinking this (wife says I am anal) and pick a dog, I hope to have a new best friend I can hunt with and hopefully hook up with a group or club for some training (me and the dog) and some good times.

Michigander You are right about the Springer eyes. As far as the AWS goes we loved ours he had a great personality but boy was he stubborn. You may very well have ran into us at the Cedar Pantry, we stopped there going to and coming from the island. I know my son-inlaw was talking ducks with someone when I came out of the store.


----------



## Michigander (Oct 8, 2001)

Jim-

That would have been me your son-in-law was chatting with. The next time you come thru stop in as the coffee pot is always on. Just ask for directions to Spencer's on Hill Island.

Let us know what you get fort a new pup.


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Will do. But I hope the next I come to your neighborhood its not as windy as it was that week. 

Jim


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Well after a lot of talking to breeders around the country and looking at several different options for breeds and hunting styles I ended up coming across what I feel is a very good opportinity with a breeder/trainer that is close to me and has many happy owners around the country including some on this board. So yesterday I put a deposit on a late winter or early spring whelping of WPG's. I am sure the icefishing season will seem to drag this year as I wait for spring and the new pup but I know it will be worth it. I want to thank every one for all the help and suggestions and most of all for all the things I have learned already from the input in this thread.

Also a special thanks to NB for all of your help. I really thought it might be a cocker prior to this opportunity. I hope we get a chance to meet some day.


Jim


----------



## windknot (Jul 22, 2001)

And now the wait begins!!!!

Congrats on your pick - regardless of which breed or where they came from, methinks that the dog you get will be in good hands!!!!!


Good luck with your Griffon - from Otis and I both!!!!


----------



## #8 shot (Aug 27, 2009)

Welcome to the ugly dog club:lol:. When the fur face arrives you should bring to the NAVDHA training days for an intro.


----------



## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Good Luck with the new pup, Jim. With your big waterfowling interest, I think the Griff is a very good choice. There is a guy up here who runs a very good one in out RGS trials who has placed well under several judges.

And remember, *pictures are required* when you get that new puppers.

NB


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks Windknot it will have a great home I just hope it likes to travel and surf fish.

#8 shot I will be there for sure, I hope to come out before the pup arrives and start meeting and learning. Thanks for the welcome!


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks NB, Chasing ducks did have a part in the choice. I will post pictures for sure as soon as the pups are on the ground. (I guess I better figure out how to do that before spring).


----------



## #8 shot (Aug 27, 2009)

Jim58 said:


> Thanks Windknot it will have a great home I just hope it likes to travel and surf fish.
> 
> #8 shot I will be there for sure, I hope to come out before the pup arrives and start meeting and learning. Thanks for the welcome!


 
I think they start in April, but don't quote me on that. I do know they are Mondays at Abby Lane kennels in K-zoo. There are alot of good people to help us rookies out. But if you get the pup before then I can usually be talked into training most days .


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Now time to order a "Coat King"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

sounds like a plan 8 Shot I'll need all the help I can get.

N M coat king?


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Stripping comb
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

Welcome to the world of furminators and wet beards dripping on the floor. Your going to be happy with one of Phils dogs. 

I'll be working my hound after hunting season for her AHAE test. If you make it to the east side give me a pm and maybe we can get together for a romp with the dogs.

Griff


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

If that wa a question then yes it is going to be one of Phil's dogs.
If I do get to your side of the state I'll give you a heads up. It would be great to meet you and your dog.


----------

