# Practicing QDM



## Hunt_n_Fish (Jul 30, 2003)

Just curious who has practiced QDM and who it has worked for. In my experience it has worked for everyone that has tried it, but some of you still seem to not like the idea. 
Our farm has practiced QDM for about five or six years now and bigger more mature bucks are being taken each year. We used to see 30-50 deer each time out with maybe a spike or two. Now with the taking of does and only the bigger more mature bucks we will see 5-20 deer each time out but usually with some bucks included. Now Each year mature bucks are taken in the area. This year a 9pt. and two 8pts were taken with others seen and not shot. Last year a 10 pt. and an 8 pt were taken. With two other nice bucks getting past my uncle. Two years ago a monster 11 point was taken by the neighbor and an 8 pt was taken by my dad. My theory is, if it is given a fair chance then it will work.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

"Contrary to what some might think, QDM is not rocket science. The beauty of the concept is that it`s not complicated, and it can work wherever whitetails are found, if it`s given a fair chance."

Charles Alsheimer


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## Tsmola (Nov 28, 2003)

been practicing it a few years and yes it works very well!


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

It's worked well at my camp and other places where I've hunted in Michigan.

I practice it by:

Not shooting young bucks.

Trying to harvest as many does as I have tags for.

Improving the habitat to increase the health and carrying capactity of my land.

Trying to educate mysef and some of the surrounding neighbors to the benefits of harvesting does and letting the young bucks walk. This is the one part I don't have full control over so I don't let it bother me too much. They have every right to do as they please.

I've found that it's much easier to show someone QDM works than tell them what to do on the land that they own and pay taxes on.

BTW my gallery has a few examples of the deer my hunting partners and myself have taken in the last 10 years or so. QDM does not happen overnight and you will have set backs but don't let it discourage you. I've made my mistakes but hopefully learned from them.

Remember two things, that deer hunting is supposed to be fun and is not a competition with anybody other than you and the deer. If you want to sell something make them want to buy it.


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

So if VOLUNTARY QDM works so well, why is there such a big push to make it MANDATORY?



....tm


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Tom

You already know the answer to that. 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as long as it agrees with mine. Isn't that the American way? LOL


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

Ya,

Ain't America Great?


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Tom Morang _
> *So if VOLUNTARY QDM works so well, why is there such a big push to make it MANDATORY?
> 
> 
> ...


Well, as ya know, we've always had some sort of mandatory antler restriction. First antlered buck must have 3" spikes.

Your question is a fair one, Tom. One thing about increasing the antler restriction threshold, say, to 3 or 4 pts to a side, is to diffuse the familiar "if I don't shoot him, the guy next door will" business.

Another matter, probably less so than the first, is that there are times when voluntary will not work so good. I hesitate to personalize this, but I'll use my farm as an example. And I'm sure my property is not unique in this regard. It's been a number of years since we've taken a 1.5 year old buck on my 240A. As I've mentioned here before, we show the does no mercy, and have invested an awful lot in habitat improvements. Has my hunting improved? Realistically, no, though I would hasten to add that I continue to enjoy hunting deer on my land immensely. But I haven't seen a 3.5 year old or older buck while hunting on my property since 2000. The doe:buck ratio remains poor, and my logs reveal that antlerless:antlered sightings have been between 25 and 30 to 1 over the last few seasons. The problem is the harvest practices of those that hunt the parcels around me (note I did not say "neighbors"). 

Essentially, none of my neighbors hunt. I wish they did. There are 9 different landowners on my perimeter, their parcels range between 60 and hundreds of acres in size. They are either owned by farmers, widows, or absentees. From one season to the next, the cast of surrounding hunters changes substantially. Some of the landowners are very generous with granting permission to hunt, some just don't care what's going on. Of these parcels, on only two can I generally count on the same guys being back each year. But the rest are close to what I might call "transient hunters". Very difficult to cultivate cooperation amongst them.

The mortality on yearling bucks in my neighborhood is high, my guess is higher than average, and not enough does get taken. Some kind of enhanced antler-point threshold (what some may refer to as "mandatory" antler restrictions) may well be the only practical measure to get some age structure to our local herd.

My determination to continue to practice QDM is stronger than ever, and hopefully our long-term plan of increasing the amount of thick sanctuary cover on my place will result in an occasional young buck surviving to become a mature animal. I'd sure get a kick out of seeing one!


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

I have a buddy who hunts in a big camp in NE PA . We had a long talk re AR's over the holidays. The word from PA is "ITS WORKING". Interestingly, most of the guys in their camp were strictly old school and hated the idea at first. But now they are some of the biggest AR boosters.

We are very fortunate to have some real good deer camp neighbors who can see beyond the end of their noses. So QDM is working for my camp as well as for the guys across the road and down the road. In fact, QDM is working everywhere its been given a fair and honest trial.

Where is our Dr. Gary Alt??

Natty B.


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

http://www.michigansportsmanmag.com/mi_aa102503a/


Click on the link.

Were any of these deer taken in a mandatory QDM area?


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

We've tried voluntary at our club since 1998. It gets a D-. Our private neighbors and surrounding public land hunters want nothing to do with the program. They prefer "brown it's down"- bitch about no decent deer. Now all we have is far fewer deer and even fewer bucks, of any size. Let along bigger bucks that were supposed to be the result. Now 30% of our bucks are dead at 6 months, since a cumlitive(sp) total of 120 antlerless permits have been sold per sq. mile since 1998, and the other 69% are dead at 18 months because nearly every remaining buck gets shot. Mandatory antler regs are the only option in many area's of the state. And for that, all regulations, be it baiting or otherwise need to be uniform and statewide. Vietnam should have taught us the lesson of doing something peacemeal, instead of having a grand plan. Feeling our way through a plan never works. I'm for mandatory regs. Or as we used to say, simply "having regulations". Not just letting hunters decide management and to stop shooting only when there's nothing left in some area's. We did this well with the passanger pigeon. Hell, read these boards. Even half the guys on M-S are in the dark. Should we leave our sport to many that are unfortunately ignorant of the facts? 
For those doing the math, Newaygo county has 842 sq. miles. Since 1998, around 100,000 antlerless permits have been issued. That's 118 permits per sq. mile. What do you think the odds are of having many 4-6 year old deer around with 120 kill permits per mile, without even adding the regular buck permits? Still think there's 50 per sq. mile? Think there's 20? If we have 1.8 million, which is over 40 deer per mile, then us hunters sure can't shoot straight with 100 plus permits per mile over 6 years.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Tom,

You, like so many other people get confused by what QDM stands for! It is not TDM!!! That would be (Trophy Deer Management). . . hope this clears things up for you and BC bucks are rare as you know. 

FYI. . . Take a look at the Real Tree Monster Bucks videos, I would consider those trophy bucks, but guess what. . . it took them until this year's video to get one that is over 170 net BC, the minimum for typicals.


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

Really?

Thanks for clearing that up


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Anything I can do to help 

Whenever I mention QDM, I usually get something like. "Damn trophy hunters". . . which is far from the truth. 

Heck, five years ago, that was my opinion. Things have changed for the better in our area.


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

One thing I'm not confused about is that the Clare experiment didn't have the following and the support that most QDMers thought it would.


http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deer_qdmsurvey_dmu118_59094_7.pdf


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Yeah, you don't have to tell me about the survey from last year. I have talked to about 20 guys that voted NO from last year and most(16) would change their vote this year. Most of the people that voted NO have property near the border lines. . . I know that you are just taking the survey as is since that is the only information you have to go on, but if they would have shown the comments page it would give you a better understanding of why some people voted NO. Also, the don't care and no opinion count as NO votes.

Comments of the 16 guys that voted No that would change is that they would like to see is Statewide to better regulate it. . . or they have property on the border.

Thanks for finding that link. . .too bad they didn't post the comments for everyone to see.

FYI, it still might pass and stay QDM


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

omega58,
So tell me again what the goal of QDM truly is. Yeah, I can read their website, but I've been there and done that before. Like I said before, I really do want to learn. Is it strictly the health of the herd? Some of the postings that quote John Ozoga seem circular in their thinking. What confuses me is what some of the strong QDM supporters on this page use for arguments. Everyone says that they aren't in it for big bucks or "trophies", but many only want to shoot big bucks or "trophies"? If the goal is a healthy herd, with a good buck to doe ratio, and a good mix of age classes among all, then why let ALL young bucks walk? Some of you have already pointed out the fact that there are more younger bucks to begin with because older bucks have a higher mortality rate in a "normal" herd. So if there are 100 bucks in an area, and let's say that 20 (20%) are 8 points and up, why only target that 20? It seems like you would want to protect some of the young ones for future bucks. If as someone said we are currently taking 80% of the available bucks, then we're already taking 80 of those 100 bucks, and if we target ONLY the larger bucks, then aren't we taking way too many of the older, breeder bucks?

Bottom line....what truly makes up a "healthy" herd? 50/50 buck to doe? 30/70% How about among only bucks? 50/50 over and under 1 1/2 years old? And further more, how can a "healthy" deer in southern lower Michigan be compared to a "healthy" deer in the central UP? These are dratically different animals, with different food and habitat, and different natural predators, weather, and stress. If we do move into expanded QDM regulations, I can't see having blanket statewide regulations.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

There is no way blanket situations would work, because a 4 on one side rule would not work anywhere other than lower LP. Three on one side would work pretty much everywhere. I think QDM is simple and people can form their own opinions in what to shoot. If they want to take a 1 1/2 old five point or wait for a 2 1/2 or older deer that is up to them. 

Our property (320 acres), we took 3 eight points, one 3 1/2 and two 2 1/2 year olds. We also took 14 does and will not even put a dent in the population. We should have put down more than double that! I saw some nice bucks, both 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year olds that will be nice bucks next year and the year after. 

On another piece of land we own (200 acres) about 5 miles away, we took 8 does, a 1 1/2 year old 5, 6, and 8 point, and a 2 1/2 year old 8 point with about a 18 inch spread. 


Two different chunks of land, two different philosophy's of QDM hunters. Both work!! I wouldn't call either places trophy hunting places, biggest buck taken scores around 120. I like hunting at both spots and love putting in the work on the tractor with food plots and being in the woods anytime I can get out of the city.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Well that certainly sounds like a different management style than most promote on this site. What you do sounds very similar to what we do on our 460 acres, and it works for us. We had a vote for QDM in Montcalm Co. a year or so back that was for 4 or more on a side, and it got trounced. I was vehemently opposed to it because I see no need in our area. As you said, if someone wants to take a 1 1/2 year old 5 point, or wait for an older buck, I have no problem in our particular area. Although I think a proposal for "no spikes" or "fork horns or larger" may have passed. It's obvious by some of the comments on this site that many are frustrated, and I feel for them. But mandatory STATEWIDE AR's are not the answer. JMHO.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Tom Morang _
> *So if VOLUNTARY QDM works so well, why is there such a big push to make it MANDATORY?
> 
> 
> ...



Oh C'mon Tom.......I understand your concern with antler restrictions, but I promise we'll keep them at 5 points per side or less.........That way you won't have to take the other mitten off    

Neal


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

I was opposed to the idea when it started, but wouldn't want to get rid of it now. I also didn't like the idea of not being able to shoot what I want. Now, I find it more fulfilling shooting does than a 1 1/2 year old buck that offers no challenge. I wouldn't vote for 4 points on a side either, mostly because it wouldn't pass, but three points just means that you pass up a spike or at most four point. . . . to me that makes a lot of sense. . . to others it doesn't, but it would if they tried it, just my .02


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## Ed Spin (Mar 20, 2003)

Just love this healthy discussion. Five years ago the response would be "what do you mean QDM? 

We have QDM, which has as many differant approach's as there are subsribers to the practice. Then we have the QDMA, the national organization with over 700 professionals as members that give us the proper direction. So, what is the proper direction? First we should look at their mission statement.

"The Quality Deer Management Association(QDMA) is a non profit wildlife conservation organization dedicated to promoting sustainable, high qualty, white-tailed deer populations, wildlife habitats and ethical hunting experiences througfh education, research and management in partnership with hunters, landowners, natural resource profesionals, and the public."

Let's cover one point and that is, what is a high quality deer population and what are the basics to achieve this? The QDMA's goal is to achieve a more natural deer herd in balance, density wise, with their habitat. By more natural this means as close to an adult buck to doe sex ratio that is 1:2 or better. Deer researchers conclude that the historic natural buck to doe ratio was 1:1.3-1:1.5 and if we left them alone it would return to this range of buck to doe ratio's. The reason it is not a ratio of 1:1 is the greater mortality of bucks. The age structure would be representative of all age groups. In our presemt day world where we have man hunting bucks this prevents a true natural age structure and impedes a true natural sex ratio. The object is to get as close to natural as possible. 

Research has shown that just by protecting all, or nearly all yearling bucks (1 1/2 year olds) that this is enough to achieve a healthy and balanced deer herd, providing an adequate number of does are taken. For example having a buck harvest standard protecting 90% of the yearling bucks also protects around 25% of the 2 1/2 year olds, which insures that a sufficient number of 3 1/2 year olds (the age that bucks are considered mature) into the deer herd. Bucks start to control their social order at two years of age and the following year with all these protected 1 1/2 year olds now being 2 1/2 year old plus the fair number of 3 1/2 year olds this will insure that there is adequate competition present among bucks to pass on the best genes. It is not a true natural buck deer herd age structure wise, but the results are the same as far as maintaining the gene pool. Don't worry about the supposed inferior 1 1/2 year old passing on his genes. There will be little breeding being done by the young bucks with the above buck structure and they need to earn their strips through the pecking order as Ozoga notes before they are allowed to breed to any extent. "Let the natural selection order take place".

We can and should get the deer herd into a close natural sex ratio. If we get it to a sex ratio of 1:1.5 this is not only natural but it is a sustaining sex ratio. By that I mean we can have our cake and eat it. For example with a sex ratio this close we can expect a much higher adult doe to fawn ratio, (high productivity)which is the key to a sustaining deer harvest. It may seem strange but it is possible to harvest as many bucks with this advanced QDM management approach as with the present traditional deer management, which targets young bucks. Not only is it a high buck harvest but they are more mature and the deer herd health is much improved. 

there is more, much more that can be said when sound and scientific deer management (QDM) is used but enough for now.

Keep the fun in hunting!


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

QDM is:

1.Healthy buck age structure

2.Populations maintained at or below the carrying capacity of the land

3.Adequate adult sex ratios

Those 3 biolgical necessaties can be used anywhere, but harvest strategies and objectives need to be locally adressed to allow for areas of strength or weakness relative to the above 3 principles. 

Example:

2. "Populations maintained at or below the carrying capacity of the land". Here in the Central U.P., and north, antlerless harvest is not always needed, and in fact, populations can actually stand to be INCREASED in some areas!......that's QDM. While at the same time, in other areas in of the U.P., such as the Garden Peninsula, Menominee, and the eastern U.P., antlerless harvest needs to increase. 

It's really that simeple! 

Take the above 3 necessaties, adjust for your area to achieve each principle, and you have a successful biological QDM program, or, "Herd management". Add in Hunter Management, including education, habitat imrovement activities, cooperation with local wildlife authorities, respect for game laws, and youth involvement, and you are following both QDM, as well as the overall objectives of the QDMA, including both Herd and Hunter management.

For me personally, with the help of QDM, and the QDMA, I've been able to achieve several things on my property, including:

1. Higher population of deer(from less than 5 to 20+ in the past 4 years)
2. Improved buck age structure(from 1 spike seen and photographed in 1999, to numerous yearlings 2.5, and even some 3.5 year olds in the last 2 years!)
3. Greater number of bucks(from 1 spike in 1999, to over 10 this year alone!)
4. Improved deer sightings, from 33% per sit in 1999, to 66% in 2003.
5. Greater number of rubs, from 2 or 3 in 1999, to closer to 100 in 2003.
6. Greater number of scrapes, from 1 in 1999, to 20-30 in the past 2 years, including some fequently used now perinnial scrapes.
8. Greatly improved rabbit and grouse populations compared to anywhere else around due to the extensive habitat improvement activities, not to mention whatever bird or animal species that benifit I would never even notice.
9. Improved fun with the addition of not only hunting opportunities, sightings, and sign, but with added rewards of the satisfaction of completion and involvement of year-round management activities and planning that take place in and around the property borders.
10. Increase in land value!


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Ed Spin,
Very nice explanation of the principles behind QDM, and one of the more short and sweet descriptions that I've seen. I'm not sure I agree with everything that was said, but I'm keeping an open mind about it. I'm realistic enough to admit that I don't have the expertise on this topic that Mr. Ozoga and some others do, so I'm listening, and will continue to listen. 

You talked about the affect of man from hunting, but does any of the research take into account the affect of man from automobiles...i.e. car/deer accidents? Honestly, how many bucks have you seen or found, especially in the rut, dead on the roadsides? Seems like every roadkill you see in the rut is a buck...for obvious reasons. I think the increase in the number of automobiles in the last 100 years has also had an effect on the population, but whether it has any real bearing on the overall scheme of things is a good question. 
Thanks again for the honest answer to my honest inquiry. I too enjoy open, honest discussion on this topic, because it certainly isn't going away so we all should become as educated as we can about it. I think it's possible that there can be some kind of middle ground on this that will make most people happy.


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## Tom Morang (Aug 14, 2001)

And I have a spike under each mitten just for you Neal...... 

ps... I enjoyed reading that article in the news a few weeks ago.


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

Good thread, LOTS of good info.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Ducky,

Funny you mentioned the car/deer accidents. . . not sure if they are taken into account, but a 15 point, 130+ from what I heard was killed 1/2 mile from our place in early November by a car. Quite a big buck for the Clare area.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Actually,

It makes sense QDM can decrease the amount of car/deer accidents in your area if habit is improved enough to increase deer movement patterns enough in areas that are away from roadways, and not adjacent to risky areas, even areas that may be condusive to poaching and road-hunting.


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## Lenaweebowhunter (Sep 15, 2003)

Ive been praticing QDM methods on our farm for about 5-6 years. It took me a few years in the begining to pass on the exceptional year and a halfs that would temp me during the bow season. We have a small track of land (70 Acres) witch ajoins my parents 70 acres. I apply all my managment efforts to both parcals as if it were one. The big difference bewteen my fam and my parents is I have created an 18 acre santuary that I dont ever go into, unless for tracking perposes. Fortunatly I have not needed to go into there in over 2 yrs. I plant perinnial and anual food plots, create thick areas for more safe cover. And have completed a timber harvest of selected trees to open up the canopy to alow more sunlight into the forsest floor. Althoug I did not take a mature buck this pass season. I saw several, and one made a fool out of me twice in that hot week of November just before the gun season.

As of this date I have obsereved three different bucks from our home behind the house in our food plots since after Christmas. All but one were 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 yr olds. Last night just before dark we wathed 11 does and fawns in the plots, then in came a large dark deer, sure enough it was a good buck, when he picked his head up we could see he'd already lost his right antler. I do feel my efforts are showing some positive changes in the buck populatin, age structure and buck to doe ratio.

It hasnt been easy, I have had a tough time gainning any support from the surouning land owners, But it is getting better, I now can tell the landowners are more willing to speak with me about what Im seeing and how do I keep them here. 

Of all the habitat improvments I have undertaken the decision to set aside a well established thick beding cover to our santuary has probb'ly created the most impact. It also has had a negative impact to me personaly with the flack I receive from my non QDM family mebmers that used to hunt that piece of prime whitetail habitat.

By the way almost every mature buck sighting ive witnessed this fall were bucks going to , leaving or in that 18 acre santuary.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

NorthJeff,
You're right that QDM could help drop the number of car deer accidents. However, no offense intended, but if you're in the central UP as your title block says, the automobile traffic in that area can't be compared to what we have down here in the southern lower. We front on a paved county secondary road which probably gets more traffic yearly than M-28 across the UP. No kidding...it's insane down here. We do have excellent habitat on our place due in large part to our hard work, and you're right that this affects the travel patterns of the animals. But it amazes me to see how fast people fly down that two lane country road in the thick of deer country...especially when the rut is on. Every year we find several bucks dead in the ditch while pheasant hunting in late October/early November. Quite often, these are the big bucks which seem to be the most active in the rut. So I'm not sure there is anything we can do about the car killed bucks. They're just like the chicken trying to cross the road....they just do!


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I know what you mean, but I've hit 2 deer in 5.5 years!

Actually, the poaching angle is probably a little more relevant up here. It's been a way of life for generations for some.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

POACHING?? NO WAY ANYBODY DOES THAT ANYMORE  

I am not going to label yoopers as poachers, but had a friend at GVSU from Manistique area, not sure if he hunted in same area. In 97 he said that his family took almost 50 deer, I guess they ate well.

It does happen down here too south of Grand Rapids quite a bit in Allegan county. In November, they set up a sting with a moveable decoy and caught 4 people within an hour and a half!!


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

Just finished our 3rd season of QDM in our 2100 acre cooperative.

It was such a good feeling visiting each camp and taking pictures of the bucks they harvested. Each camp decided voluntarily on either 3 or 4 points on one side, and stuck to it!

95% of the bucks harvested were 6 points or bigger.

60+% of those were 7 points or larger.

I don't think we could find anyone within the co-op unhappy about the buck harvest.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by omega58 _
> *but if they would have shown the comments page it would give you a better understanding of why some people voted NO. *



That's an interesting point, one that never crossed my mind. The comments would make for interesting reading and could possibly shed more light on a participants reasons for voting as they did.

Is there anyplace where the comments could be found?


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Not that I know of, but I know that some people voted no because people that have land next to them shoot what they want anyway. Going statewide is the easiest way to regulate it and that's why some people voted no, not because it doesn't work. . . but, because it does work when regulated properly. 

One guy that was a STRONG NO vote last year that has land next to us said he would vote in favor of it now. Of course, this was after he shot an 8-point with a 22 inch inside spread Before this year, he hadn't noticed much improvement. Maybe they should do the survey this year to see the results? This was by far his biggest buck of his life and has been hunting the area for about 30 years. 

I did hear that it might remain a QDM area despite only getting the 58% vote last year. . . of course, that is a majority last time I checked. I had to laugh when watching ESPN yesterday talking about Pete Rose and a survey of should he be let into the Hall of Fame. 60% said NO, and ESPN was talking about how an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY thinks he should stay out.


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## Ed Spin (Mar 20, 2003)

Omega:

Interesting post about how there are many who would change their vote if given another chance. I have witnessed the same experience and then there are those who let pride prevent them from seeing the truth.

Omega, would you contact me by E-Mail. My E=Mail address is ([email protected]).

Thanking you in advance

Keep the fun in hunting!


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## MoneyMan11 (Jan 8, 2004)

I've had serious doubts about QDM for the last 4 years as I hunt the border area in Clare County. County lines are 1/2 mile to the South and 3/8 to the East. Been waiting to see things start taking off for quite some time and have been frustrated by the lack of returning young bucks. Hear the neighbor on the radio say that just shot at the 4 pt. we just let go and they are in the QDM area. It was quite frustrating. The past year, I've seen a huge difference. We starting harvesting more does and have we starting our food plot program (Brassicas and Legumes). Our land could not sustain our population before. We have 200 acres of fairly mature forest with no mast crops. We are probably lucky to get 200# acre of food without the crops. We now have 7 acres planted with plans to do another 10. This should get us to about 340,000 # of food compared to about 40,000 before. With each deer eating 2,000 pounds of food, our herd was beyond the carrying capacity of the land. We should by next year be able to sustain a much healthier population. Our results in 2003 were pretty good and this is an area that is not know for superior genetics. Our walls are lined with spikes, 3's, 5's, and most are really just plain ugly. This year, we harvested twice as many does as bucks and the bucks were pretty darn nice. We took 5 bucks off the property, 2 8's, a 6, and 2 5's. We also missed two wide 8's to go with that. We had two adjacent land owners harvest 8's. One would score around 100 and the other had a 22" inside spread. A land owner the first day took a 15 pt. with a 22" inside spread on the first day of rifle season and another land owner took 3 great bucks, a 5, 6 and an 8. The 6 pt. was the largest deer in the area and weighed 170# dressed which is very large for that area. As I've filled my tags and passed up the small bucks, hunting has become more enjoyable. I don't need to shoot every buck I see to have a good time and I would not have said that 2-3 years ago. For me, it's now about hunting more than about killing. My vote would now be a yes and I sent out a No vote last year mainly because my belief was that it needs to be enacted state-wide in some form. I would still like to see 1st time hunters have their choice as I believe that they need to have success to keep interested. Call it Quality Deer Hunting looking at it that way.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

MoneyMan11 

Welcome to the Michigan-Sportsman website.

Very nice post, I'm glad to see that you are seeing the results of not shooting young bucks and increasing the carrying capacity of the land. Habitat improvements work.


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## MoneyMan11 (Jan 8, 2004)

Thanks for the welcome. The habitat improvement is quite addicting. I'm really looking forward to spring to get back at it. We're doing some logging this winter that should also improve those efforts. It makes for a great hunt to let the small bucks go. QDM has forced me to become more of a hunter/land manager rather than just a shooter. Many of my most enjoyable hunts, I've never taken a deer on. I've had two late season rifle hunts after Thanksgiving where I've seen 10-14 different bucks (not counting buttons). That was a lot of fun. I passed on an 8-9 last year because a much larger deer was had just passed another hunter and was headed my way. Never saw it and the ones I passed where smaller than the one I had taken the previous deer and both young. I'd love to get the point where I could rattle and call and have that be effective like it is in other states. I'm also not into trophy hunting. I took two nice bucks with the bow this year and neither would have scored in the 90's or above, but with some more improvements in the next couple years, I hope to be able to improve upon that. 

Great Forum. This will keep me until Lake Michigan is warm enough to fish in the spring.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MoneyMan11 _
> *I'm also not into trophy hunting. I took two nice bucks with the bow this year and neither would have scored in the 90's or above, but with some more improvements in the next couple years, I hope to be able to improve upon that. *


Huh? You say that you took "two nice bucks", but you want to improve on that? But you're not into trophy hunting? I'm really not trying to pick on you, but your statements are contradictory. Why do you need to improve on "two nice bucks"? What was wrong with them that needs improvement? Did they show signs of malnutrition or disease? No I suspect they weren't as big as you would've liked. Although I know you probably didn't mean anything by it, your statement saying you "hope to be able to improve upon that" tells me something about you. There's nothing wrong with wanting to shoot a large buck, but there are too many people on this forum that won't admit that that is a major reason why they are out there. Just like the "meat hunter" needs to change his thinking about shooting "anything that moves", or the "buck's only" hunter who believes a buck is superior to a doe, a lot of us need to change our thinking that "larger/more antler points is better". JMHO.


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