# State of the Wild Turkey



## Playin' Hooky (Aug 29, 2002)

Good overview of current concerns, esp in SE. plenty for us here to think about as well.


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

Thank you for posting

but I would encourage people to count how many times he says 'we don't know', 'states don't know', 'I don't know'...
(funny, you can google how many turkeys there are and have dozens of articles)

but he sure makes a 'sky is falling' case that he knows that birds are on the decline 
(always a good fundraising technique - are you all getting the amount of 'fearmail' I am, bees are going extinct, certain animals, polar bears, rainforests, global warming, dogs/cats need my $...)

but as 'proof', he basically uses his own words - a lot of them (to fill up his time slot, as he doesn't have much data). 
he shows polt production declines using data that is 10 years old
he says the only way to possibly know anything is based upon state harvest surveys, which he says show a decrease.
except he says they show a recent increase
and he says that seasons and bag limits have been cut in many states (doesn't that amount in a harvest decrease? duh!)

my take, which you may disagree with but which I am entitled to (unless you are a democrat)
this guy is book smart, likes to hear himself talk, and is without much data
he even calls himself an egghead - I agree, and would have another name

there may be some decline
just let me hear it from someone else who has real data


----------



## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

Kill the raccoons the turkeys start coming back works around me and didn't cost tens of thousands of $$$$


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

hey, let's not discriminate here

add coyotes, please!


----------



## ezcaller (Feb 21, 2009)

The guy is beyond book smart he is into live turkey studies beyond what most hunters know. A person can pick the reason you think turkeys are in decline and you will be correct.Studies on hen habits are just now being initiated in states with declining stats.We were so involved in Gobble harvest and gobble counts we have some catching up to do on nesting, and poult survival as well as hen survival and habitat.


----------



## syonker (May 7, 2004)

TheHighLIfe said:


> hey, let's not discriminate here
> 
> add coyotes, please!


Hey, add egg robbing skunks & possums please


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

ezcaller said:


> The guy is beyond book smart he is into live turkey studies beyond what most hunters know. A person can pick the reason you think turkeys are in decline and you will be correct.Studies on hen habits are just now being initiated in states with declining stats.We were so involved in Gobble harvest and gobble counts we have some catching up to do on nesting, and poult survival as well as hen survival and habitat.


Thank you for the efforts

I am not being disrespectful to efforts, but my contrarian mind sees loose ends and perhaps bad assumptions that should be weighed and considered

another example now....

gobble counts data = book smart

street smart = gobble counts being down doesn't automatically mean that turkey counts are down
us hunters talk about a noticeable drop in gobbles when 'run & gun' calling from different spots on roads and trails
but in doing so, are still seeing tracks, feathers, scratch areas and live birds that have learned to shut their mouths
loudmouth gobblers tasted great on Thanksgiving - and no longer produce offspring to train
selective cautious gobblers that 'ran silent and ran deep' when hearing noises like cars made it thru the season and produced offspring to train to be less vocal

hunters of age will remember when pheasants flew as danger approached, now have become runners
the flyers are dead and aren't producing and parenting flying offspring

deer that used to head for food around daylight that now fee nocturnally
daytime feeders are dead and not producing and parenting daytime feeding offspring

so, lower gobble counts need to be taken with a grain of salt rather telling the egghead guy (his proclamation) on the video, to increase the size of his head

haha


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

THL - just curious - but what exactly is your area of expertise and/or background training?

I ask because you apparently don’t understand that the research - conducted by eggheads like Chamberlain - was what led to the successful restoration of wild turkeys throughout America.

Search the internet and read a few of his scientific publications, especially his newer works, and you may learned yourself a few new things…

The number of birds are down in most areas of the country. This is fact and supported by hunters and biologists. In most of his recent studies, Chamberlain has emphasized the point that technology has advanced greatly over the last 30-40 years but it hasn’t been used to monitor our turkey populations. Thus, after restoration populations were established, the only information collected to monitor those populations was typically just gobbling activity and number of toms sighted. 

Monitoring tom activity doesn’t work because the population is dependent on hens, not toms. Scientists and state biologists across the country are now conducting longitudinal studies on hen populations and poult success. They look at 5 and 10 year intervals to examine trend lines, which balance out the data over time to compensate for 1 great or 1 terrible year. 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

yankee

I have absolutely no book smart education or training

only street smart personal observations in the field - where, knock on wood, I have in recent years been seeing an increase in the amount of birds in the areas I have frequented for almost 50 years 
I fully understand that my observations are for a tiny area, equivalent to a needle in a haystack

I appreciate the efforts of any and all to monitor and protect and expand populations - as stated already
no intent to stop that - we can use every bit of info and strategy we can

in this day and age where people only have time to absorb headlines, and briefly read articles and watch videos filled with misinformation and disinformation, I was merely warning people to not take that video and swallow it hook line and sinker because there are obvious holes and contradictions presented - at least to me, others may be susceptible to not seeing them.... his use of 10 year old data, use of harvest data that he admits disproves his theory two years ago and admits there are 'apples and oranges' holes in that data....

and now you even bring out another piece of potential misinformation/disinformation to prove my point when trying to prove your point

above, I questioned the legitimacy of using 'gobble counts' as a measurement, for the reason I stated
now you come along and state that it is your belief that (quote) 'monitoring tom activity doesn't work'
but this guy is using tom activity for the majority of his evidence (gobbles, harvest...) to make his claims

so, bottom line, you are in agreement with me that there are holes in his presentation and data measurement 

Thank you for confirming my warning to not swallow his book smart presentation 'hook line and sinker'


----------



## hmrx (May 4, 2012)

Chamberlin is probably the premier turkey researcher in the US. Not sure why Highlife wants to disregard what he has to offer. All research needs a starting point and yes those dates are older. How else would that work ?? YOU mentioned gobbling counts. Chamberlin never mentioned them. His graphs were about poult production. State agencies across the country realize a problem as many are rolling back regulations. A fact. The decline is real and requires more research. It seems you are one that is not having time read articles and just digesting a catchy headline. Using the covid data increases from 2020 will skew the harvest data but doesn't affect the poult production or survival. Lets not let that data mask the overall long term trends.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

HL - you misunderstood - state agencies have relied on hunter reported gobbling activities as a way to guesstimate population of birds in a given area. 

Chamberlain is using new technology, a system he built himself, to detect the sound wave distinct to a tom’s gobble on public lands in Georgia. He has pretty strong preliminary data supporting the fact that gobbling data is relatively useless for estimating bird population in a relatively large area. 

I’m beginning to think that I’m better off banging my head on my office door rather than taking the time to discuss scientifically-backed animal research with somebody who (apparently) gauges global game population trends with local observations.

Dr Chamberlain and turkey research is the equivalent of Dr Karl Miller and white tailed deer research - they are absolute beasts and leaders in the field. They are also both dedicated hunters and therefore not only esteemed scientists but fellow hunters and sportsmen…


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## FireDoc66 (Oct 9, 2005)

This is from another Turkey related board, but the original Poster of this is a pretty knowledgeable guy as well with one of them fancy pieces of paper as well. 

*"At the risk of being redundant again, since I have brought it up a number of times in the past, I will summarize the video and problem we have in wild turkey management as simply as possible. Here it is (as was stated by Dr. Chamberlain in the video): We are experiencing turkey population declines due to REPRODUCTIVE FAILURE OVER TIME! In the video, we hear about the reasons for that reproductive failure (won't list them again here), and we hear about possible solutions. To me, the most obvious solution was not even mentioned in the video, nor is it rarely brought up when these discussions about turkey declines.

Yes, there are places where turkey numbers have plummeted in this country. On the other hand, there are also many places where turkeys are thriving, and in fact, are a nuisance problem. I look at that situation and go "Duhhhh"! The most obvious short-term remedy to the lack of reproductive success is ARTIFICIAL SUPPLEMENTATION OF THE RESOURCE by moving turkeys from places of plenty to places without!!! Yet, that solution is NEVER brought up (as far as I have seen) by professional wildlife managers like Chamberlain (and even though that is how we got turkeys in lots of places we have them now!)

Here's the deal. Reproductive failure in turkey populations is generally not a constant thing. There are years when reproduction is non-existent, and there are years when turkeys, for whatever reason, reproduce successfully. When those successful years occur, we need to have as many adult turkeys on that landscape as we can at that time. We need to make sure they are there,...and the way to do that is to have on ongoing program across this country to SUPPLEMENT THE RESOURCE where it is needed! 

The wild turkeys are available in places to do this. We just have to have the willpower and willingness to "think outside the box" to implement the programs, coordination, and funding to do it (I suppose I will make the comment here that the best organization to rally behind this and provide funding is pretty obvious). The states where everybody is screaming "we have too few turkeys left" need to be getting with the states that are screaming "we have too many turkeys" and do what is obvious! Catch some of the freaking turkeys that are a nuisance in one place and take them to the place where they are gone and put them out there on the landscape for cryin' out loud!

Yeah, yeah, yeah,...I already hear the response and it is this: "The turkeys that are there are not reproducing now, so why would we just put more turkeys there?" The reason is that, again, you want to have as many adult turkeys in the population as you can when that year comes along when they successfully reproduce! The fewer the number of hen turkeys you have in the population, the greater the frequency of successful nesting years you have to have to ensure the survival of that population. Conversely, keeping a greater number of hen turkeys (as well as the necessary number of gobblers to accomplish breeding saturation) in a population means that you need fewer successful reproductive years to maintain and/or increase that population. 

Adult turkeys are generally pretty resilient. Without excessive human-related mortality, they are likely to live several years once they reach adulthood. If a hen turkey lives five, six, or seven years (for example), there is a better possibility that she will, at some point in her lifetime, pull off a successful clutch in which some of her poults survive to adulthood. In those years when one hen does that, it is because the conditions were right,...not only for her, but also likely for the other adult hens that are out there on the landscape. Again, when that year comes along when conditions are right for that successful hatch to take place, you want to have an adequate number of hens reproducing to maximize the benefits to that population. (I won't even get into the potential genetic benefits in this discussion)

This is not rocket science folks. It does not take a someone with a wildlife management degree (although I do have one) to understand simple math. The fact is that we have the excess turkeys in some places to put in those places that need them. It is high time we put two and two together and come up with four! Yes, we need to keep working on solving the problems that exist with all the rest of the stuff that is keeping turkey numbers down, but in the meantime, let's keep enough turkeys on the landscape so they can 1) flourish once we solve those problems and 2) in the meantime, maximize the population benefits when those occasional good hatches occur. The turkeys are available to do that, so let's "pull our heads out" and get it done!"*


----------



## FireDoc66 (Oct 9, 2005)

And in regards to Georgia, I've had the pleasure of hunting there a few times and one thing that immediately shocked me to learn was down there you could fill your tags on either Private or Public Land. At the time, they were allowed three (3) birds total. 

How did I learn this? We were eating lunch at the Dairy Queen after a morning hunt one day, and being dressed in camo we struck up a conversation with an older fellow who asked how the turkey hunting was going, and whereabouts we were hunting. When we mentioned the WMA, he laughed and said that we were a few weeks too late as it was commonplace that turkey hunters there filled at least their first, if not first and second tags on public lands so as to not decimate their own private land spots for their third tags. I'm no biologist, but I reckon that might affect some studies and data on turkey numbers for that State. 

He was nice enough to buy us some ice cream though. 

In the meantime if you're concerned about turkey numbers, it's always a good time to kill some raccoons.


----------



## hmrx (May 4, 2012)

In the 80s and 90s when turkeys were moved extensively from state to state to reintroduce them it cost $500 per bird. I was there. Can you imagine what that would cost today. In the late 90s the reintroduction was basically done and birds were doing pretty good. Moving large numbers of birds is not remotely cost effective. Who would pick up that tab. Put and take turkeys is not a good idea. Figure out why only a few poults survive is better long term. I agree raccoons and skunks are big problems.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Playin' Hooky (Aug 29, 2002)

High life, you pointed out the obvious takeaway from Chamberlain’s 13 minute talk—the lack of good data—but maybe missed point of the presentation?
Why do many wildlife agencies currently manage turkeys with insufficient or nonexistent data about their populations? He’s lamenting the lack of sound data that would more fully inform management decisions.
If turkeys continue to be managed based on recommendations from decades ago when restoration was still in progress and hunter success rates were low then we really aren’t fully understanding the situation on the ground. Can’t have scientific management if we’re not doing the science, can we? Thirteen minutes at a turkey hunter’s conference was actually a disservice to all this man knows about turkeys.
I invite you to look beyond your biases and dive into more of Chamberlain and UGA’s research. He was on The Hunting Public last year with the sonogram project, MeatEater podcast episode 214 discussing nesting, gobbling, predator and hunting pressure and has a social media presence where he shares research info.
He absolutely has a wealth of knowledge and data from his work that can better inform all turkey hunters and is a tremendous advocate for wild turkeys and the scientific research that is needed to understand their population declines and successes across the country.
He’s a serious hunter, stand up guy (my son got some intel about hunting opportunity around UGA) and has a kid who is a heckuva archery shooter (hosted him with GA team my buddy’s son shot for a few years back when they were at nationals in Lansing) and knows a lot about turkeys himself.

The smartest person in the room is rarely the one with all the answers, but the one with more questions than there are answers for. As far as the science of wild turkeys, Chamberlain’s that guy right now.


----------



## wildcoy73 (Mar 2, 2004)

so the south is loosing birds?
hmm most of the southern state have a multi bird season.
well easy fix, limit tags and lower limits.
if more birds are left, you have a better chance at more birds being hatched.
not rocket science.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

wildcoy73 said:


> so the south is loosing birds?
> hmm most of the southern state have a multi bird season.
> well easy fix, limit tags and lower limits.
> if more birds are left, you have a better chance at more birds being hatched.
> ...


Quit using common sense this must be researched to death and a ton of money spent that will do nothing . Wonder what that $500,000 pig study a few years back did to get rid of the swine that were taking over Michigan .They study everything year after year but never come up with any results .No wonder our upland game birds have all but disapeared from much of Michigan . Maybe in 20 years more they may come up with a solution .


----------



## syonker (May 7, 2004)

What me worry?

All is well according to this press release.





NWTF Presents Michigan DNR with National Conservation Award


The National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF) is a national nonprofit conservation and hunting organization that has worked for the conservation of the wild turkey and preservation of the hunting tradition since 1973.




www.nwtf.org


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

wildcoy73 said:


> so the south is loosing birds?
> hmm most of the southern state have a multi bird season.
> well easy fix, limit tags and lower limits.
> if more birds are left, you have a better chance at more birds being hatched.
> ...



Georgia just reduced their bag limits this year from 3 to 2, and only 1 can be harvested on a single WMA.
Alabama dropped from 5 to 4 and made a ton of other changes - moved the start dates back, limited decoy use, etc.
Tennessee has dropped from 4 to 3, and only 2 in some areas.
Oklahoma reduced their bag limit from 3 to 2 last year (I think last year) and now it's 1.
New York reduced a traditional 2-month long Fall season to only 2 weeks in most areas (Long Island is the exception).
Missouri continually reviews and somewhat adjusting start dates, limiting hunters to 1 bird the first week.
Closer to home - Ohio just reduced their bag limit from 2 to 1.

I could probably find more, but those are the ones I'm already familiar with...

Who knows what our esteemed wildlife biologists will do in MI - but after the almost double number of birds harvested in 2020, I suspect hunter satisfaction will be down this year and we may see changes in the tag quota in some units. If it were me - I would start by changing the Fall season to 1 bearded male in the SLP, coupled with reducing the number of ZZ tags and placing a reasonable limit on 0234.

If hens lose their nests in mid-May, they need some toms nearby to breed or will be clutchless for an entire breeding season. In areas with limited hens, the numbers can plummet pretty fast if the birds don't produce replacement poults...


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

Those of you that were/are skeptical of Dr. Chamberlain's research, note the states showing 10 year longitudinal declines in bird numbers with his 'old data' are the majority of the states that have recently reduced bag limits. I didn't list Louisiana above, but bag limits and season restrictions have also been used there recently, which along with Oklahoma has noticed two of the sharpest decreases in birds and hunter satisfaction. 

The steady decline in breeding success since ~2000, coupled with the increase harvest observed during 2020 due to Covid, is thought to have stressed many of the states and pushed some regional areas and WMAs off the proverbial cliff. The jakes born in summer 2020 will be this year's 2-year-old foolish toms, so many biologists are waiting to see how badly hunter satisfaction drops this year (it's somewhat anticipated to be how much, not if). I know I personally saw very few jakes last spring or fall, so I'm expecting far fewer 2-year-olds than years past.


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

I am hoping that if indeed there are decreased populations (not my experience) people find out why and correct it
whomever and however doesn't matter

but am still not a fan of chamberlian's book smart approach, I prefer street smart common sense. I hope some day he figures things out, comes up with solutions. did you notice that solutions are totally lacking in his video? I would prefer a guru of solutions over a guru of unknowns. reminds me, for years now, of book smart dr fauci saying 'I don't know, we don't know'

- if it costs $500 to transplant a turkey, maybe sleepy joe can add it to the build back better budget - he could bury thousands of transplants to BBB $ and no one would notice. haha

- my hunting friends (including present and former dnr personnel) and I a number of years ago, when dnr stopped baiting for deer, IMMEDIATELY said 'there goes the turkey population'. for decades, turkeys had received a huge benefit from leftover bait piles and leftover bags at the end of deer season that people threw out as winter feed to keep game from starving. the internet was loaded with landowner pics of dozens of turkeys feeding on the deer bait in the snow. apologies I have no book smart data on that - just common sense and street smart discussions from dozens if not hundreds of landowners. I don't see much on the internet anymore, I don't hear my landowner friends saying they have a dozens turkeys in their backyard eating the leftover deer bait they had thrown out, because they don't bait anymore

no deer bait = lack of protein over the winter = weak birds = easier prey for predators during winter stress = loss of breeding population = weaker hens in the spring = reduced nesting success = lower population. duh!!! apologies again for relying again on street smart common sense. maybe the book smart people will do a survey and find out in 10 years that the cessation of baiting in Michigan hurt the turkey population. 

- again, yankee helped me out by proving my statement in the thread above when he says (quote) 'declines in bird numbers...are the majority of states that have reduced bag limits'. chamberlain clearly says one measurement he uses that shows the decline is the decline in harvest data. apologizing again for using common sense, but if harvest data is used to estimate population and season length and limits are reduced, wont there then be lower harvests which then will trigger chamberlain to say populations are declining because harvests are declining? duh!!! connect the dots! (which is something I have found phd's and book smart professors have always had tough times doing)

sure hope these solution-less book smart people figure something out be extinction!

I'm rootin' for ya!


----------



## Playin' Hooky (Aug 29, 2002)

wildcoy73 said:


> so the south is loosing birds?
> hmm most of the southern state have a multi bird season.
> well easy fix, limit tags and lower limits.
> if more birds are left, you have a better chance at more birds being hatched.
> ...


Will see if your simple solution bears fruit for those states that are decreasing bag limits. More likely that things are a bit more complicated. Having more toms on the landscape doesn’t necessarily increase clutch and brood size. Hens mate with the boss tom and, as RESEARCH has shown, loss of the boss disrupts the breeding hierarchy (pecking order) and pauses breeding until a new dominant tom establishes himself. All the while, the hen’s clock is ticking and eggs are sitting there waiting to be incubated. Reproduction is about the HENS and how they relate to the changes in social order when hunters/predators disrupt it. Will later season openers (after hens are sitting) increase reproduction? That’s what research is for. 

More research is showing the influence of disruption by people and predators and its impact on nest success. The odds are slim that eggs laid will hatch, poults survive and reach age 2. It’s really tough to be a young turkey.
Improved tech is driving the research as you might expect. Tracking devices are returning awesome data. 

If you’re interested in understanding turkeys better, please do check out Chamberlain’s and others’ research as mentioned above.


----------



## FireDoc66 (Oct 9, 2005)

PH, do you happen to know how long Dr. Chamberlain has been in his position, and if all of his research is Grant Funded?

I ask because there is some belief, legitimate or not being a whole separate topic, that all of these studies (be it turkeys, deer, elk, etc.) are at their bare bones used to renew "job security" contracts for these folks for 3 to 5 years. 

Touching base with some GA buddies, the opinion on Chamberlain is split. 

(And PS, don't you know you're not supposed to use the name "The Hunting Public" in regards to anything turkey related after the Tennessee fiasco?  )


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

TheHighLIfe said:


> - again, yankee helped me out by proving my statement in the thread above when he says (quote) 'declines in bird numbers...are the majority of states that have reduced bag limits'. chamberlain clearly says one measurement he uses that shows the decline is the decline in harvest data. apologizing again for using common sense, but if harvest data is used to estimate population and season length and limits are reduced, wont there then be lower harvests which then will trigger chamberlain to say populations are declining because harvests are declining?


For the most part, your logic is incorrect. 

States that allow hunters to tag multiple birds also examine hunter success statistics, not just the number of tags filled. Of the states that track hunter harvest closely, they've shown that typically less than 10% (usually closer to 5%) of the successful turkey hunters fill more than 1 tag each spring, and less than ~2% typically fill more than 2 when 2 or more are available. 

Thus, decreasing the bag limits by 1 bird really aim to limit the adverse impact of taking out too many breeding toms from a specific area/region, not necessarily the entire state. Example - out of 1000 hunters, if 300 are successful, reducing the bag limits will likely still result in 290-300 successful hunters (maybe a slight 2-3% decline). However, reducing bag limits from 2 to 1 bird results in those 300 hunters now only removing 300 birds instead of 320-330 birds - the total effect on harvest is relatively minimal and likely an insignificant reduction in total harvest across the entire state, but each geographical area/WMU has fewer birds removed, which increases the potential for increased breeding success in each region.

On the flip side, when there are total fewer birds available to harvest, the rate of hunter success also typically drops. Thus, when numbers take a big nosedive instead of 300/1000 successful hunters we now we see only 200/1000 hunters actually being successful and only 200 birds harvested. You may also see hunting effort increase, almost double, for those 200 hunters to be successful - suggesting more effort is needed to harvest the birds they bagged quite easily a few years before. In general, when bag limits and success rates drop more than 10%, this suggests the significant declines in hunter harvest occur across a wider geographical area and were likely caused by declines in game population. 

I appreciate the argument about bait on turkey health and populations - which is somewhat commonsense and I'm sure has had adverse effects in the UP and parts of the NLP - but the bait restriction doesn't explain why some areas in the SLP are showing declines in turkey populations. Food sources are readily available year round down here, and to be honest, I never saw birds use bait as a constant source where I hunt. They were definitely not regular/daily visitors to bait stations, and even when they stopped, some birds didn't eat anything suggesting to me that birds considered the bait stations as an 'optional' food source.

For the record and full disclosure, I'm also an egghead because I hold advanced degrees and have a faculty appointment...


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

FireDoc66 said:


> PH, do you happen to know how long Dr. Chamberlain has been in his position, and if all of his research is Grant Funded?
> 
> I ask because there is some belief, legitimate or not being a whole separate topic, that all of these studies (be it turkeys, deer, elk, etc.) are at their bare bones used to renew "job security" contracts for these folks for 3 to 5 years.
> 
> ...


Chamberlain is a distinguished professor at Warnell, which means he's a tenured faculty at UGA. Most distinguished professors typically hold a 100% hard-money appointment, meaning his salary is completely independent of how much money he brings in from grants and contracts. 

This allows him to use the grant and contract monies to fund the research, including small amounts of stipend $ paid to technicians and grad students. If he is on a 9-month appointment, he may be able to supplement his own salary by paying himself (typically 20-33% of his salary limits) for the 3 months he is technically not under appointment, but most distinguished titles are 12 months - the university typically wants to keep those they honor with 'distinguished' or 'endowed' status and therefore paying them the full 12 months encourages them to not 'moonlight' elsewhere. 

He's a UGA employee, so if anyone is really curious I'm sure his financial information is reported in the public domain somewhere...


----------



## Playin' Hooky (Aug 29, 2002)

FireDoc66 said:


> PH, do you happen to know how long Dr. Chamberlain has been in his position, and if all of his research is Grant Funded?
> 
> I ask because there is some belief, legitimate or not being a whole separate topic, that all of these studies (be it turkeys, deer, elk, etc.) are at their bare bones used to renew "job security" contracts for these folks for 3 to 5 years.
> 
> ...


He’s been at UGA since 2011. LSU and MS state before that (see link). 

Not certain about his work specifically, but as Yankee said, most U profs are paid salary for academic year (9 mos) for teaching courses and their research is funded by grants. Those come from wide variety of sources. In some grad school scenarios, a portion of grant goes to university for expenses and the rest pays for grad students and materiel necessary for the research. Grad students in well funded programs may have school costs paid for and maybe a stipend to live off of. Like a paid internship/apprenticeship in business/trades. 

I could see where some would view grant funding as job security, but if your research isn’t deemed to be of value then your grant applications won’t be funded. Need to do good work!
Profs in research are working to solve problems and advance the science. Most are also trying to teach and train grad students to do quality, valuable work in that field. If I was finishing a BS in a wildlife biology and looking for a grad program I would be applying to UGA to work w him! 

A couple of links I found:

Focus on Faculty: Michael Chamberlain

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Michael-J-Chamberlain-80140624

@turkeydoc on Twitter 

Wide variety of research topics by Chamberlain and his students!

Sorry, not aware of a TN fiasco w THP


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

Playin' Hooky said:


> I could see where some would view grant funding as job security, but if your research isn’t deemed to be of value then your grant applications won’t be funded.


Yes and no - it's a publish or perish career, so if you don't publish the grant applications don't get funded and you're unlikely to get promoted/granted tenure. Most Assc profs are struggling to get promoted to full professor in today's world because it takes strong publications AND a record of continued grant success, and right now grant dollars are extremely tight.


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

it has been interesting reading, TY all for 'behind the book smart scenes' info and education

I don't care to touch book smart conversations - out of my league, never want to become that - have always found discussions with book smart profs/phds at social events ones that drive me to excuse myself to go get another drink so I can leave and not return to their boring attempts to flaunt their irrelevant intellect

I prefer to keep things simple, and real - based upon real live personal observations and listening to reports from landowners and people traveling around public state land. if I am seeing big flocks of turkeys every 10-20 miles merely driving roads, and marking my map to have spots to hunt where I know I can have flocks around me constantly (tho I haven't been getting to spot #2 in many years), then I really don't give a F what data and 'experts' say about population declines. I just go on my merry way seeing turkeys and trying to help friends get theirs

while I would bet the house that 'some of those' in this post will cry BS (actually I am sure hell is coming my way), let me speak to those who are on here to get a feel for where things are at for this upcoming season and share what I am hearing the last 2-3 weeks. I have attended wildlife banquets with many old friends and new friends, had lunches with hunting buddies on my trip downstate, have been ice fishing with groups of guys, and spent a day at outdoorama bumping into many friends - not to mention driving 1,000 miles, always observing with one eye on the fields and woods.

I HAVE NOT ONCE brought up the subject of turkey season or populations. what I have heard at least 12-15 times is someone talking about how many turkeys are either on their property (many stating 'more than I ever recall') or seen driving around on public land. how ironic that I have been watching this thread about 'data' and declines when I don't ever recall hearing so many real live people connected with, living in, the outdoors being so consistent saying they are seeing more turkeys than normal. maybe a turnaround in date is coming in Michigan? those talking about high populations and my seeing turkeys when driving more often than usual are covering until M, K, E, ZA, ZE and ZD.

i cannot speak for the entire country, or the entire state. i can only report what i see and hear 'on the street'. perhaps i am just bumping into certain people and amazingly picking the 'turkeyest' roads to travel.


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

HL - just curious, but what is your definition of ‘larger flocks’? Is it 20-30 birds or 100+ birds? And have those flocks increased, stayed the same or decreased in size over the last 10 years?

I ask - because if you’re looking at a winter flock of 80 birds and they were previously 100 birds - that’s a 20% decrease…


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

yankee

I didn't interrogate them. didn't warn them that whatever comment they make must be proven to yankee beyond a reasonable doubt. didn't tell them that they will need an exact count to send to you in a notarized document

most of them have lived on their property/driven roads to work/school/fishing etc for as many as 45 years
they said they are seeing more turkeys the last few years. foolish me for just accepting their comment

last year my public land honey hole had approximately 30% more than I have ever seen. too many across a wide area to count. my guess is 3-4 times as many as the lower years about 6-10 years ago. can't really say because there were more that hadn't yet come over the hill when I shot.

their definition is 'MORE'. the number they are seeing is 'MORE'. the number I am seeing is 'MORE'
which word do you not understand?

sorry to hear that you are seeing less. I would look in different spots. they are there. they may have moved. one of my top spots for decades was near a spot where the a**hole atv and motor bikers started driving the trails, throwing their empty beer cans onto the trails. I haven't seen a turkey there in 12 years since they started. that used to be my honey hole, now is not worth the time. those jerks are part of the reason I think people are not seeing birds. I switched to going deep into roads they can't access to play with their toys 

please do not reply. you seem to be on a mission. carry on without me, this is a waste of time
go turn off the lights and watch the chamberlain video on a replay loop

good luck to you this year


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

Wow. I’ve never seen anyone get so bent when asking to define the word ‘more’. You could have merely said - we don’t count, but we see about 25% more, or we see them in 3-4 more fields that were previously empty, etc.

Numbers are part of science, so yeah, you should probably stop if you can’t understand that’s the biggest problem that Chamberlain and other people are having.

We have ‘more’ - but we never counted before and we don’t count now. Great, let’s increase the number of tags in your WMUs by 25%…


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

I would just like them to allow a 2nd tag

turkey season has been like winning a golf tournament on the 1st hole for years


----------



## hmrx (May 4, 2012)

Truth comes out. Can't have a second tag if numbers are down. Amazing how most are only worried about their little corner of the world. Most just can't look at the big picture. And care little about the guy next door or in the next county. Turkeys move around too much and must be managed on a bigger scale not small areas of private land or areas of public land that border farms.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

hmrz

you hit the nail on the head! TY 

people worried about their little corner of the world who aren't seeing birds (for whatever internal or external reason) want seasons reduced. they claim that numbers are down, point to some egghead saying numbers are down although the egghead admits he really doesn't have numbers or know the reason why they are down (actually, if numbers are indeed down, my bet is he will find 'global warming' and 'trump' to be the causes). 

they care little about the guys across the state who are seeing increases - guys who know that turkeys move around and are capable of finding where they go, guys capable of finding them even when they've become 'less gobbly', guys who wonder where the F are these chicken littles coming from?

amazing you can't see the forest thru the trees. can't see that you are doing exactly what you are whining about? it is all about you, isn't it? don't take any time to soul search and realize you just may not be scouting the right spots or hunting the right spots - or talking to people seeing increasing populations to find where they are at, how they are doing it.

I never knew that 'on the bigger scale' of things, turkey populations on private land and on farms don't count. when all of the turkeys move around to private land and farms, I guess we will have to close the season

maybe you should hunt there


----------



## hmrx (May 4, 2012)

As usual HL you missed the point. If xyz zone has a decrease, and most do, the zone needs to be managed as a whole not broken into many small areas to satisfy personal situations. It comes down to a matter of fairness to all hunters whether they own property or not. Why should those hunting early shoot 2 birds before later seasons have even started. Just my opinion but i don't the street smarts you do. Not an egghead either. Just a hunter that cares. Guess I'm out of this one.




Sent from my SM-G950U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## hairy sax (Mar 11, 2021)

This thread sucks.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


----------



## TheHighLIfe (Sep 5, 2017)

hrmx

I would agree about managing zones based upon their populations. tho I dislike complexities (had too much of that in WI), I would hope that wouldn't lead to every county having something different. broad I do understand and support.

I also agree a 2nd bird before the second hunt (where there are 2) people get a chance would be unfair

I am also a hunter who cares about all hunters and believe all populations should be higher for our children and grandchildren. Putting back more than I have taken, I crossed (a long time ago) 6 figures in personal contributions and helped raise 7 figures to numerous wildlife organizations to attempt to secure that future


----------



## Yankee#1 (Jun 3, 2015)

hairy sax said:


> This thread sucks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


It’s better than the Rompola buck thread 


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


----------



## Thirty pointer (Jan 1, 2015)

Yankee#1 said:


> It’s better than the Rompola buck thread
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


Maybe but this tread can be solved by looking on the sides of our roads and highways the answer is obvious .


----------

