# We gotta be crazy.......



## codybear (Jun 27, 2002)

Linda G. said:


> Michigan has a population of approximately 160,000 turkeys.



Don't you mean "estimated", like the Dear herd? And how are these numbers derived?

CB


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Just like deer, nobody knows for sure.


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

They are estimated, similar to deer. They get data from hunters and also ask state residents to report turkey sighting during the month of January. Turkeys flock up on food sources each winter and can be easier to count then. I always cooperate with the DNR and report sightings to the DNR website every January.

I will point out that the DNR estimates do point to population declines in the northern lower and they have scaled back fall hunts as a result. 

Codybear, the DNR estimate seems to align with your post on less birds in area J.

Maybe the DNR estimates are more accurate than we think, at least on Turkey? I think they have managed the turkey flocks very well the last 20 years. Now deer, that's another story.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

The turkey counts are a lot more accurate than the deer counts, I'm sure. 

Here in northern Michigan, we give the DNR a full count of every bird on the feeders every winter. They do the same in the UP. I believe the chapters of the NWTF that are trying to feed also provide counts. The DNR also tries to garner as many actual counts from farmers and other folks in the southern Lower as they can. 

From there, I'm sure the DNR adds in 20% or so, mixes it all together in some sort of ratio, then comes up with a rough number. If anything, I think that 160,000 is probably on the conservative side. 

Cody, every bird that was on one of MWTHA's feeders in Area J was reported to the DNR this winter. We dole the corn out based on the number of birds someone is feeding, and have reps that travel around each portion of Area J to verify that number. All in all, just a few more than 11,000 birds. There was a fair number of birds that were being privately fed in Area J this winter, we tried to find out about those and count them, too. I'd say it's safe to say there's about 14,000 birds in Area J, down slightly from five years ago, but up from our low of less than 10,000 two years ago. 

Get hold of me this winter, I'll be happy to take you out and show you around a bit.


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## codybear (Jun 27, 2002)

Section J is a very large area covering 4 counties up here which basically covers a very good portion of the entire tip of the mit. Being that section J covers such a broad area, are you finding these numbers pretty much stable all over or are you seeing certain areas that have increased numbers, while other areas have decreased?

CB


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Some of the areas have remained quite stable over the years, or, in many cases, the numbers are even higher.

Other areas have dropped in numbers, and yes, west of Gaylord is one of them. But I can tell you that just east of Mancelona there's a lot of birds, same for up around the Elmira area. More birds than we've ever seen before in Elmira, about the same number east of Mancelona that we had 10 years ago after 2-3 years of declines. 

There's a ton of variables, and some of them you wouldn't think would make such a big difference, but they do. 

The severity of the winter is always a factor, so is predation. But if you get a fairly mild winter, like this one, survival is much better, even when the birds are fed all winter. Our weights are up this year, I know that. We're seeing a lot of 17 pound jakes and 21 pound 2 year olds, those are very healthy sizes for northern MI birds. 

Spring nesting weather is another key-last year was a disaster in terms of spring weather, as we all know. To my knowledge, and I'm a hard core bird hunter, it took out the ruffed grouse hatch completely in this area. I never saw one young of the year grouse last fall until I got east of Gaylord. But the turkeys hung in there, and produced a very large, but very late, hatch. If those little ones, which went into the winter with very little fat on their bones, had access to lots of fall and winter foods, they survived. We have a ton of jakes over here this year. But if they didn't have access to those fall and winter foods, they didn't. 

Predation effects can be drastically changed in a year or two as well. In areas where we have a lot of coyote hunters and trappers, we see more turkeys, as well as ruffed grouse, btw. I like to bird hunt those areas hard. 

In other areas, primarily private lands, where nothing or very little is being done about predation, the turkeys seem to be fairly stable, but numbers are no longer exploding. 

Foxes also have an effect on turkeys. This year, I have turkeys right down the road from my house, the first time in five years. This is also the first time in five years that we don't have a fox out barking in front of the house every night. The coyotes took care of our local fox population...

I believe there are also variables regarding herbicides, fertilizers, etc., even though everything is now supposedly safe. I will point out the Elk Rapids area as one area where these effects have become apparent. 

15 years ago there were several attempts to stock turkeys on very private, protected lands in areas near there where the birds should have done exceptionally well. Elk Rapids is not only milder in climate than most of the rest of Area J, it has abundant agriculture, and until just a few years ago, fewer predators. 

But the birds never took off...there would be a few around, but not any numbers worth mentioning. They were fed during the winters when necessary, but winters are often so mild over there that there was never any need to feed the birds at all. 

As time went by, the orchards so prevalent in that area slowly began to disappear, and continue to today. They have been replaced by golf courses, condos, and subdivision...and the turkey numbers began to take off. There are now 15 times as many birds in that area as there were 10 years ago. 

Then you have the effects of something like what has happened in Sparr and Johannesburg, where 10 years ago we had an abundant number of wild turkeys. The two gentlemen who lived in those respective areas who took care of much of the winter feeding for us died about 7 years ago, and within two winters the birds in that area were practically gone. If no one picks up the ball where someone else had to drop it, that's all it takes. 

Particularly in an area where there is little agriculture or farming, which is the case where you live, Cody...


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## codybear (Jun 27, 2002)

Linda G. said:


> Then you have the effects of something like what has happened in Sparr and Johannesburg, where 10 years ago we had an abundant number of wild turkeys. The two gentlemen who lived in those respective areas who took care of much of the winter feeding for us died about 7 years ago, and within two winters the birds in that area were practically gone. If no one picks up the ball where someone else had to drop it, that's all it takes.
> 
> Particularly in an area where there is little agriculture or farming, which is the case where you live, Cody...


Linda,
That is the exact areas I'm reffeing too as far as the birds being down. Did one of these people your reffering too live on Douglas lake rd? That was my wife's Aunts and yes they had a ton of Turkey's they were feeding until she passed away, unfortuantly knowone picked up where she left off, like you said. So my next question obviously is, what is being done to helps these areas again? This is where I now reside and it seems every year the wildlife around here, know matter what species, is decreasing every year. Comparing it to these days, I think I had more wildlife in my backyard when I lived in the suburbs of Lavonia 20 years ago :lol: 

CB


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

One of them, the gentleman in Johannesburg, was Frank Fox, the other, in Sparr, was John Kubacki, so I think what we're looking at here is a multiple effect, of John dying, then folks like your aunt dying, and no one taking up the effort to follow them. Lots of older folks in that area, it's a shame, and the younger folks are busier every day, with no time to spend time with the wildlife like they used to...or maybe, because they're younger, they don't know about helping the wildlife. Or care, that's a growing issue, too. 

There's a lot less agriculture in that area than there used to be, too. That has an affect on everything, especially deer and elk. 

There have been no further efforts on the DNR's part to re-stock anywhere in northern Michigan, so the best you can hope for is that the birds will do very well elsewhere and start expanding back into those areas...and that someone will be there to help them out in the winter. 

Take a look at the gout thread, I am posting a response from Glen Matthews now.


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## NBman (Feb 29, 2004)

Finally got one during the snow storm saturday while helping out with the wheelin sportsman in lapeer county. Called a nice tom in but we didn't see him untill he was 20 yds away. He saw something and took off. A little while later we called in a hen with at least a 6 inch beard and a beardless hen. They hung aroung for a while and a couple jakes came in and I shot the biggest one. Suprisingly saw a lot of birds both saturday and sunday but nothing gobbling.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

NBman said:


> Finally got one during the snow storm saturday while helping out with the wheelin sportsman in lapeer county. .


I just want to give credit to NBman and others who help out each year with NWTF's Wheelin' Sportsmen program. This is an outreach effort to get disabled sportmen back in the field- turkey hunting, deer hunting, fishing, and other outdoor activities. Many of these guys are veterans who are in wheelchairs. If you think about the logistical challenges inherent in getting a guy in a wheelchair into the right spot to harvest a Michigan wild turkey, you'll get the picture. 

You can find more information about Wheelin' Sportsmen and other NWTF outreach programs (Jakes, Women in the Outdoors, etc) at:

www.nwtf.org

Natty B.


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## marty (Jan 17, 2000)

My son came up for a few days and we got every type of weather you could get I guess. We had 10" of snow,rain thunder and lightning even some hail toss in for good measure. We seen birds every time out even a bearded hen and some real dandy toms but couldn't get them close enough for a shot. He did get a nice jake last evening. Got another buddy coming up today. Hopefully we'll get the big bird we seen this morning crossing our field at 740am or even one of his buddies..........m


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## NBman (Feb 29, 2004)

That was my first wheelin sportsman event and I had a lot of fun and look forward to calling for someone during the may hunt.


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