# Sawtooth oak?



## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Anyone have any luck getting these to grow in Michigan? I've planted some that Hamilton Reef gave me, but wondering about others luck. Is it too cold here?


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## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

bob, so far i have had no luck with them. it seems that each year i get good growth and then the following spring they die back and start over. i've talked to a couple people and they told me i am right on the edge of there growing range.


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## Hamilton Reef (Jan 20, 2000)

I got some sawtooth oaks as experimental and spread some around including [email protected] I've still got some in my back yard. To be truthful, I'm not impressed. They did have good tap roots, but never took off as advertised. My trees are still 30" high for two years in a row. I don't regret trying something new. A science background guy like me will put up with failures to learn. I'm located right on the line of the 5/6 growing zones so the sawtooth oaks were pushing the top of their northern limits. Does anyone know of any adult trees producing acorns in Michignan or any trees over 6-foot?


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## bishs (Aug 30, 2000)

I planted 1 to 2 foot tall sawtooth oaks about 6 years ago. I put them in tree shelters. They would grow up to the top. Then die back and start over. After a few years, I took the shelters off. Today they are alive but are not over 3 feet tall. My readings from articles in NWTF, said that they may not have acorns in Northern areas on late frost years. I excepted that. But I didn't realize they wouldn't grow. No big deal. I planted them as an experiment. There is always a risk with non-native plants. I live in Mid-Michigan, Saginaw county.

If you want fast growing oaks, plant red oaks. Or pin oaks which are in the red oak family. My red oaks were seedlings 8 years ago, and are now 12 to 14 feet tall. People always want to plant white oaks. Since they are preffered by deer. Deer still like red oaks, just not as much. Red oaks grow twice as fast as red. My white oaks that are 8 years old are 4 to 6 feet tall. My Grandkids may appreciate them.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

HR, I mix planted the ones you gave me with some other tree's in several area's. Looks like they either all died or deer ate them. Either way, no evidence of growth. I was wondering if it was worth another try. Judging by this thread, I'd say not. Bummer, looks like a great deer/wildlife tree. We're just too far north I guess.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

There was an article in Quality Whitetails a while back that mentioned the sawtooth oaks - sounds like they are primarily a southern tree. the other drawback, according to the author, was that, although they produce an abundant crop, they drop all of their acorns over the period of about a week in early October. That's fine if you're just planting a food source, but don't count on those acorns being around for very long.. I second the notion of the red oaks.


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## ThumbBum (Oct 13, 2003)

Man am I gald to have this forum!

I planted 25 of them a few years agao and they all died on me. I blamed the fact that I had to store them for too long with the box open before planting. So last year I planted another 25 and made sure that I planted them the day after they arrived from the nursey. There was actually an inch of snow on the ground at the time, but the ground wasnt fozen so I went ahead anyway. If these had wound up not doing well I would have blamed it on planting them in the snow. I was actually getting ready to fax my tree order today which included another 25 gobbler sawtooths. 

I must admit that Im really dissapointed by this news. There arent a lot of Oaks in my area and I figured that once these things started sropping acorns I would be up to my ears in deer. 

Regarding Red and Pin Oaks
It is my understading that these trees only produce acorns every other year. Is there a way to stagger your planings so that you have two populations so that one populations is alwyas producing acorns??.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

I'd focus on a good fertilization plan for the red oaks, etc. once they are producing. They make a number of types of fertilizer. Not for certain, but I think even red oaks will produce every year, if fertilized..


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Also, cut any scrub tree's around your mast producers. Open up the crown and canopy around them and decrease competition. A chainsaw can produce many more acorns for you, over time.


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## fairfax1 (Jun 12, 2003)

I posted a similar message about a year ago when we had oak trees on a thread....but, seeing I got no new material ....I'll just strut out the old stuff:

English Oaks, a white oak, seem to produce terrific quantities of acorns. I have seen them for 30+ years along Wilson Road on the Michigan State campus in East Lansing. Wilson is a major east/west artery that crosses the entire campus. When it was built in the early 60's English Oaks seedlings (from three old nurse trees behind Agriculture Hall) were used to line the road on both sides. There must be 150+ English Oaks along Wilson and some of it's cross streets.

I make a point of walking Wilson most every year (skipped '03) just to observe how the acorn crop looks. In all these years of observing these trees (which are not on real good growing sites, what with road salt, concrete and autos all around) I am always impressed by the quantitiy of acorns these trees drop. Not every tree has a bumper crop every year - but 1 out of 2 years they put out a huge crop. And some trees have a respectable crop every year. I know wildlife love 'em as the squirrels and occassionally mallards and Canadas will be under the trees. 

If you like experimenting with growing mast producing trees I'd recommend you give these English Oaks a try. Seedlings sprout readily from acorns collected in late September and handled with the care required for such seeds. 

I think you could gather all you could possibly use by walking Wilson in late September and gathering drops or collecting from low branches. Walk it, see which trees have the biggest crops and gather from them.....it's a cheap way to start your own Sherwood Forest. (the originals, behind Ag Hall, really did come from England)


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

I agree with Fairfax. Of all the oaks I've observed, English Oak (Quercus Robur) is probably the most reliable producer. There's a fair cluster of the in the Cass-Benton portion of Hines Park, and over the last 10 years their crop has ranged between fair and outrageous. I can't recall a mast failure.

I've planted several hybrids which are a cross between English Oak and our native Bur Oak (Quercus Macrocarpa, one of my personal favorites). The transplant success has been pretty good. Still probably many years away from seeing fruit.


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## halfcore (Nov 11, 2003)

Bob,

So far I have had great success with mine. I purchased about 10 3-4 foot trees from coldstream farm in freesoil. I planted them in spring, and also used tree pro protectors.

After 3 years they are now around 9-10 ft tall, still in the protectors but shooting well out the top. Last year I did stick a few fertilizer spikes in the ground too.

I live in SW MI...

I am going to plant 25 more on a new piece of property I have, again using the tree pro protectors. These tubes are fantastic at protecting young trees, the key to success in my eyes.

Also keeping weeds well away from the sapling to cut down on moisture/nutrient competition seemed to help.


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## ThumbBum (Oct 13, 2003)

After my posting yesterday I called Mike at Cold Stream Farm to place my tree order for April delivery. I mentioned this thread to him and asked him what he thought. While he is not completely convinced of the viablilty of sawtooth oak in this climate, he also indicated that sucess or failure of oak trees can be very site specific. Based on my conversation with him I am going to try the following. 

1. Keep a close eye on the 25 trees I planted last April 
(1-2 ft trees that I bought from an out of state nursey)
They seemed to be doing well last fall but this will be thier 
first winter 

2. Plant 10 more 3-4ft trees that Im buying from him this spring 
and invest more time into getting them started properly. 
(weed control and watering) He doesnt feel that tree 
protectors are necessary in my area, but Im going to use 
them anyway. He also doesnt recomend fertilizer during the 
first year because fertilizer encourages the tree to leaf out
and it can loose too much moisture if there is a dry summer
the first year. 

Based on the potential of these trees Im willing to risk a little time and money to take one more stab at it.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

before you spend a ton of money on the tree shelters, check out some of the studies done on their effectiveness..

I'll use the mesh ones to try to protect animals from browsing, but MSU has published a few studies showing that with red oaks, and black walnuts, non-sheltered trees caught up to the average height of the sheltered trees, after "X" years. (6 years, I think) The problem has something to do with dieback of the trees after they grow out of the shelter - the trees are weaker for a few growth seasons than their counterparts. the shelters do not increase diameter.

with the price of tree shelters, its certainly something to consider. makes those little seedlings quite a bit more expensive.

be wary of planting pin oaks (a type of northern red oak). they are relatively short-lived oaks, don't produce a large acorn crop, and are vulnerable to the gypsy moth.


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## ThumbBum (Oct 13, 2003)

Thanks for the Heads-Up


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

I'll hark in here.

We planted 25 1-2' so's 3 yrs ago in Mason Co about 10 miles from the big water. This is in the fruit growing zone on the border of Zones 5-6. The stock came from Coldstream. These trees were babied- 5' tree protectors, weed mats, bagged topsoil, etc etc. Then we hauled water to them if it didnt rain for two weeks. Ther are producing No red oaks on the farm.

Five have died. Several others suffer from "die back" each year. A few have grown just to the tops of the tree protectors. I doubt that we'll ever see "an acorn crop in 7-8 yrs". IMO they might be worth a try in a protected area of So MI. We're replanting with No, Red Oaks.

Natty B.


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