# TDM or QDM



## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Some of you may have seen Fred Trost last night (10-25-01). 
He did a segment about Quality Deer Management or is it Trophy Deer Management. The 2 ideas do seem to share a number of common principles. I would hope that there are significant differences. I have to wonder though when I read what is proposed for Sanilac and Tuscola counties. Not being able to shoot any deer unless it has 4 pts. on one side sounds like TDM to me. Also in a post some time back one of our members was talking about QDM and mentioned reducing the herd to 70 % of carrying capacity. Is this a goal of QDM ? Again this sound like TDM to me. 95 % seems reasonable to me.
I am one of many who is interested in managing the state's deer herd using sound scientific methods. When I go hunting I like to see deer and I want to put vension in my freezer each year. I don't give a rat's ass about someone whinning that they don't have a chance to kill a Pope and Young buck because I took him as a 1 1/2 year old 5 point. 
If QDM and sound deer management are the same thing...great! If QDM is really just TDM using a different name....yuck!
L & O


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## Stinger (Jan 29, 2000)

I think Fred is right. QDM is nothing more than sugar coated TDM, plain and simple.


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## Rico (Mar 15, 2001)

The best way to look at QDM is this way:

You are a 1 1/2 yr. old buck
You are in a crowded bar
Your are young and looken to get some action
It is filled with hot does, 10:1 ratio
There is no problem you'll get some

You are a 3 yr old buck
You are in a crowded bar
Your are strong and looken to get some action
It is filled with hot does, 5:1 ratio
You are gonna have to fight to get some

You are a 5 1/2 yr. old buck
You are in a crowded bar
Your are wise and looken to get some action
It is filled with hot does, 2:1 ratio
YOU CAN"T GET ENOUGH. Your to busy fighting!

Which deer do you wanna be?


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Rico,
Now there is an interesting analogy. Actually that got me to thinking about that night many years ago when I was still in college........thanks for the memory !
Shucks, I can't lie...that was just a dream.
L & O


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

L & O, a deer herd at 95% of carrying capacity seems about right? 

That's actually a prescription for severe biological and ecological problems.

Something that I would expect from the Whitetails Forever Network Academy of Science.

The fact is, most of the land mass of the state of Michigan has too many deer right now, and we're in for trouble if we don't accept that fact now and act.

And as for Fred Trost, he must be getting desperate. He referred to the antlers of mature bucks which appeared on his show as "freaks of nature". The reality is that large antlers are perfectly normal and evidence of the health of a 4.5 year old male deer. The freakish part of the equation is the way we currently manage our deer herd, which practically eliminates the possibility of a male deer reaching that age.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

farmlegend,
If I may paraphrase you...95 % of carrying capacity is a prescription for severe biological and ecological problems.
OK I'll bite...why ?
I thought the carrying capacity of a given area is what population of deer that area's habitat could support without any over browsing and winter kill during normal winters. If you are saying that we need to kill the deer down to 70 % of carrying capacity in case of a bad winter, then I disagree.
I guess carrying capacity in southern Mich. isn't really the issue. Crop damage and car/deer accidents are the problem.
I've heard both pro and con about protecting spike horns and fork horns....to me that sounds like a good idea. I guess I drawn the line at protecting a deer with 3 pts. on one side.
L & O


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

i can't believe people still watch this buffoon's show, the same old crap from fred. all he is trying to do is create contravercy, so he can be the center of attention, tdm is not qdm, tdm is practiced on game farms/ranches and could never be put in place or enforced statewide, tdm is in to producing the biggest racks for the highest bidder bottom line and based on totally different priciples, fred can kiss this qdmer's white a**. he takes a show with no substance or creativity, regurgitates old shows week after week, cries because he needs money to keep his show afloat and stands on a pedestal preaching his agenda. i stopped watching that crap along time ago, this state needs a good outdoors show, not a wanna-be lawyer/sportsman telling me about hunting law and politics


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## twodogphil (Oct 18, 2001)

Those are two good questions. Regarding whether QDM and Trophy Management (TM) are the same thing; this is a common misconception. While the two management philosophies share some common approaches, they seek vastly diferent goals. TM's focus is maximum Boone and Crockett scores and harvesting very large antlered bucks -- a quality hunt yields a "Book" buck. With few exceptions, TM involves commercial enterprises and are often enclosures. For this reason, most does are considered a non-profitable nuisance and, to the extent practicable, removed as fawns.

In contrast, QDM's focus is much broader emphasizing the production of 
quality deer, quality hunting experiences, and quality hunters through 
continuing education. Unlike TM, QDM focuses on the harvest of both sexes -- taking older bucks along with restraint in killing fawn and yearling bucks combined with an adequate harvest of does to maintain a population in balance with the habitat.

Regarding your carrying capacity question, QDM does not specify a 
particular number, however, literature/research data recognizes/shows that maintaining deer populations at about 70 percent of carrying capacity will provide the highest sustainable yield. That is, this carrying capacity allows the harvest of the greatest number of deer. Why? Because as the carrying capacity reaches or exceeds 100 
percent, herd recruitment (new deer added to the population) delines 
drastically due to soaring fawn mortality rates. You cannot stock pile 
deer.

In closing, please do not consider Fred Trost a viable source for 
information on deer, deer biology, deer herd dynamics or deer herd 
management. The cornerstone of his background in deer management is 
based on his "dear studies" of the showgirls at Miceli's Corners on 
M-61. Mr. Trost is well on his way to becoming a bitter old former TV 
outdoor show host.


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## Setter (Mar 20, 2001)

Fred Trost doesn't know how to do anything except bash the DNR and shoot year and a half old spikes. He has his own agenda to use his show to advertise his law practice. I wouldn't give him a case of mine on a bet. His old film clips that he runs over and over again shows his interest in having a professional outdoors show.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

And the problem with if this program is implemented and we have trophies running all over is what again??? Am I missing something? Ask the catch and release fishermen what they think about letting small ones go. Find me a bass fishing show on TNN where the host advocates killing all the small ones to get bigger fish. Or what about the "no spike" rule on elk in a lot of western states? The truth is, all Fred can see is spikes and he knows that if there are a bunch of nicer bucks running around, he won't be able to replay his spikehorn hunt from 1980.


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## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

A TDM and QDM quarrel is both justified and unjustified.
It is justified because there are different artificial ways to produce monster racks, such as "Neurogenic stimulation" by electrical means (as demonstrated experimentally by the Bubenik, father and son). Obviously this has nothing to do with what should be the goal of the natural management of a deer herd through hunting. 
It is unjustified because a sound biological management through hunting, IN FAVOR OF THE SPECIES (outside of ANY other preoccupation), will allow the best adequacy Herd / Habitat (density well below maximum biological carrying capacity), as well as a normal, NATURAL life expectancy for, let say, at least 20%of each annual male recruitment.
As science has demonstrated without any doubt, that antler WEIGHT is essentially welfare (density and sex ratio) and age dependent, a real QDM will necessarily "produce" heavy antlered bucks.
Obviously these "trophy" bucks have nothing in common with the first named above : as far as I am concerned, they are the proof of a really good management and become possibly a well deserved harvest for the hunter, just as a good gardener will deserve a just reward for his efforts in his garden.

By "maximum biological carrying capacity" one must understand the density at which a balance is reached between the annual recruitment and the annual natural losses, outside of ANY human intervention : this "balance" results of malnutrition with all its deleterious effects on welfare, average weight, recruitment, life expectancy, antler ... , it is certainly not a justifiable situation.

Friendly yours, Jack.


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## wildboar6768 (Aug 2, 2000)

Geeze what happened to just enjoying the total outdoor experience? If this TDM crapola keeps up the next thing we will have is slot limits!


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## Setter (Mar 20, 2001)

QDM make the outdoor experience a lot more than just shooting the first deer with horns that walks by. With QDM you really get to see deer in the outdoors setting by watching the younger bucks without shooting them. It is amazing what you will see if you pass up the young bucks and wait out for a mature one. It really makes hunting a much more rewarding experience. Try It!!


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Setter,

Seriously, I've tried it for the last 4-5 years on Drummond Island and I seen no more and no less enjoyment than I did 10 years ago. And the hunting as not improved. My point: we have not enough research/data to justify implementing anymore QDM areas until we can show a sound managed area that works, there are a ton of answers that need answering, not just 'oohh man we are seeing a lot more 8 points now', thats TDM thought.

QDM came from these deer ranches, they have literally the same concept in managing their herd, just like you QDM pushers have.
Buck to doe ratio at 3 to 1, let the little ones grow, harvest does, provide a quality hunt to the hunter, only difference is they provide a higher deer density and provide mineral feed to their deer for very large antler growth. All in all, the concepts are the same, period.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2001)

If it's brown and I have a tag to put on it, it's down!

Don't like it?--Oh well!

Oh yes, no fawns!


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## wolverinelk93 (Nov 6, 2001)

We practice QDM on our land and as I posted earlier have mixed results if everyone plays it is awsome we do have a bigger and healthier deer heard (bigger means older and more mature) We always said at deer camp that we would like to see this be a state regulation now I have revised my thinking. I think the DNR should offer a mangement tag to guys who want to perticapate with that tag you would be only shoot what is considered a trophy buck but as a insentive I would suggest that you would also be able to take a doe with this tag if you didn't get a buck. I like venison and am not shy about shooting a nice size doe. In all this I also think we should lower the buck kill why kill two bucks some areas bucks are about gone after the close of deer season. The average hunter would still be able to get his normal deer tags but just one buck and any doe tags that are available for the area. I belive everyone could enjoy the results and see some awsome results.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

jimbos, everyone sets their so-called "bar" somewhere, i'm glad your comfortable with your's so low. 
and i quote, "Oh yes, no fawns"!

sorry you are one of the ones focused on one tree in the entire forest. 

you figure it out.

with an intelligent statement like, "If it's brown and I have a tag to put on it, it's down! 
Don't like it?--Oh well!" 

you should have no problem.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

here are your facts on qdm right here in michigan(dmu 107):
http://members.tripod.com/~mmbqdm/articles/2000DMU107report.htm



How does protecting 1 1/2 year old bucks benefit the welfare of our deer population even if we have those devastating winters that might knock them off anyway? 
You have all heard of the old dominate buck. Well he is real and he is there if he gets the chance to mature. He can and usually does take charge of the breeding ritual. Younger bucks are often times suppressed which allows them to enter winter in better shape thus helping them to better survive a tough winter. Besides the fawns the rutting 1 1/2 year old bucks are the least capable of surviving a hard winter. It is not unusual for young bucks that are not suppressed to lose 20% or more of their weight during the rut. Another few more pounds lost during a tough winter and they are history. If we lose a few older dominate bucks so be it. They did their job. There are many other benefits that occur when addressing the general welfare of our deer population. May I suggest the four seasons books by Mr. John Ozoga and the Quality Deer Management Association Book "Quality Whitetails."


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## Setter (Mar 20, 2001)

QDM is much more than just not shooting 1 1/2 year old bucks. Although that is a key ingredient, the balancing of the deer herd to the habitat and getting the buck/doe ratio in line will prevent the winter kills.. The winter kills doe a better job of naturally balancing the herd than hunters who shoot whatever is brown do. Many Michigan hunters have gotten spoiled with the number of deer and baiting practices and do not know what hunting is. They want to get their tags filled the first day and then they expect the better the next year. It takes a huge effort to impact the deer herd and it starts with each hunter doing his part, not just expecting the DNR to have a magic solution every year. In other words the herd will only be as good as the hunters make it, it is a big job. Hope that more hunter come to realize this.


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## BEAGLEMAN (Oct 16, 2000)

This QDM,TDM arguement is really getting old. I think it's a lot like politics and religion,we can argue forever and never resolve a thing. 
But I have to admit I don't like anyone telling me that I should or should not take a 1 1/2 yr old buck or take a doe. what I shoot depends on what is going on in my area and what ratio I am seeing.
I also don't think anyone should tell me where to set my so-called "bar" when it comes to legal hunting of deer.
Tom


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Stump Jumper...

LOL, you make me laugh...

what is this???
"I'm going to get this years QDM award because tomorrow morning I'm shooting a 2yr old 3pt.! "

Then you say:
"The 80 acres I hunt has never seen a doe shot."

THEN you state:
"The whole point in hunting is to put meat on the table. Not putting antlers on your wall."

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA ROFL!

YOU ARE NOT HUNTING FOR MEAT, YOU ARE HUNTING TO PUT 3pt. ANTLERS ON YOUR WALL!!!!

HANG EM PROUD MAN!

Hunt
lololololol


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

HA HA HA HE HE HE!!! If I could shoot a doe I would! The owner doesn't allow it! I'm shooting the first deer I see with antlers! I let the little ones go during bow season and the beginning of rifle season. But now it's time to fill the freezer!

And I only have big ones on the wall. I use the smaller ones for chew toys!


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

"NO, now that couldn't be closer to BS! "


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

LOL Stump.

OK

Btw, where do you hunt?

Hunt


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

I hunt right on the St.Jo, Branch county line.

I'm not bs'ing at all. ONE day this bow season I let a nice fork horn go by, then a spike stood 13 yds away for 5 minutes. Then a 140 class buck came in and gave me a nice 20yd broadside shot and I had my sling too tight and couldn't get in the right shooting position. So he walked away. Then an hour later he came back out with a 170+ buck and commenced to light sparring until dark.
The next morning the 140 was under me grunting before light and was gone by the time it was light. When It finally got light the four point was back. I wish nowI'd have skewered him. He'd look nice on my wall. I'd of even shoulder mounted him.

I don't shoot the first buck I see, but at the end of the season if my freezer is empty I'm gonna!

And those little 3pt scrub racks make long lasting chew toys for dogs. Mine loves them!


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

i hunt branch and your landowner is the exception to the rule when it comes to harvesting a doe. everyone i know has this analogy "the only good deer is a dead deer".


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## StumpJumper (Nov 13, 2001)

That's why when everyone was complaining about not seeing many deer this bowseason I was seeing 10-20 a day!


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Stump,
I never complained about not seeing deer this year.

I always saw 10-20 a day.

All does.

It's not right.

Hunt


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