# Got A Problem!!!



## judohunter (Aug 29, 2000)

I applied for the Baraga unit with 7 points. I was NOT successfull in getting a tag !!!!!!!! ***!!!!!!!!!!!

Who do I call to complain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?

According to DNR's last year results, everyone with 3 or more points drew a tag!!!!


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## judohunter (Aug 29, 2000)

I just talked to Theresa at DNR. She was very nice and helpfull. She is going to call me later today after she checks the stats. She said that there were probably more people with 7 points applying than there are tags available.

I will be very surprised since only 24 people with 6 points applied for Baraga last year.

There are 470 tags available this year for the Baraga first hunt.

How does a BMU go from needing 3 points to draw to having 7 and not getting a tag?


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## deepwoods (Nov 18, 2002)

That certainly doesn't sound right. I drew first hunt with 3 points.


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## judohunter (Aug 29, 2000)

Girl at DNR just told me they have to call me back in a few days..........It sounds like the director of the drawing is being swamped with complaints.

Must be a major mess up.

I was told if there is they would make it right.

Don't know what that means?


I got a bad feeling on this one.


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## hank713 (Jul 31, 2005)

i just talked to 2 of our hunter's,one had 5 point's the other had 4 and did not draw a Baraga unit tag,make's you wonder


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## GrouseBuster (Apr 18, 2004)

The drawing results are not up on line either. :sad:


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

Must be something haywire,, this is what I get....


There are no active drawings at this time. Please check back. 

and 

Bear Preference Points are currently unavailable, please try back 6/29/2007.

Hope everyone saved their reciepts showing their points.......


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## deepwoods (Nov 18, 2002)

I hope this doesn't get screwy. We have already purchased all of our licenses on-line this morning after seeing our party of 4 was successful in drawing. 

I got a bit of the "pucker factor" going on.


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## judohunter (Aug 29, 2000)

smart move buying your tags right away.


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## MichiganHunter1971 (Jan 30, 2007)

I do not believ in that I have 7 points also for a different area, and I am unsuccesful also, I always hear that when you reach 5 you have the highest chance of drawing, but obviously not. OK so what should I do????? There is only one thing I see keep applying.


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## judohunter (Aug 29, 2000)

The way it's supposed to work is the people with the most points get tags first. If someone with 4 points gets a tag before someone with 7 points, there is a major problem with the software.


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## snakebit67 (Oct 18, 2003)

did i miss something, did they change the rules, i thought you were gauranteed a permit after 5pts?


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## One Eye (Sep 10, 2000)

> Note: Bear Drawing Results Are Not Yet Available. Please Check Back at a Later Date.


There are no "guarantees". I had 5 points last year and did not draw for the Baldwin Unit. It all depends upon how many apply with more points. Can't wait to hear the explanation on this one   

Dan


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## bigrackmack (Aug 10, 2004)

I checked at about 8 this morning and the system was working.....must of had smoke coming out of thier phones in Lansing.....So they shut the on-line stuff down.....This kind of stuff blows my mind....I realize things happen...but you would think they would have some kind of back up plan......Good luck on this one......Mack


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

One of our party checked this morning and said we were successful. Haven't attempted to buy licenses yet, we put in for the last hunt in Baraga with one point. Now I can't get in to see the results, says not available to check again later. Might try to buy my tag on the way into work in the morning and see what happens. 7 points, wow....should have been a sure thing! Hope it works out for ya.


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## bigrackmack (Aug 10, 2004)

Soggy, I hope you atleast printed it out....the page saying you were successful....That's the first thing I do......Mack


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

bigrackmack said:


> Soggy, I hope you atleast printed it out....the page saying you were successful....That's the first thing I do......Mack


I couldn't get it to load after work. My friend George pulled it up 6 am this morning to check, but did not print it up. Nor has any of the other two guys in the party. Guess have to wait and see, not really worried about it.


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

I would think you should have been succesful. I wonder if there is a problem with the high number of points? Anybody ever reach 10 points? Do they revert back to zero after so many years?

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/05...s_127044_7.pdf


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## judohunter (Aug 29, 2000)

This is the 8th year of the preference point system. I do not believe there is a limit to how many points you can accumulate. When you get a tag your point total goes back to 0.


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## bucknduck (Nov 7, 2003)

My wife just got off the phone with Lansing (517- 373-1263) and we were told that they have to do the drawing over. There was a problem and they have already received 100's of angry callers this morning. The results should be posted in a couple of weeks. So those who think they were drawn, may be in for a big surprise.:rant:


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## uptracker (Jul 27, 2004)

Ouch!


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

Just got off the phone with Lansing. They don't know what happened, they are not sure as of right now how they are going to fix the problem, and they do not have an answer when it will be fixed. They are saying it may have been a computer problem with the drawing with the computer folks they have a contract with for the drawings. Sorry guys, looks like it is totally up in the air right now. Wish I had something better to report.


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## MichiganHunter1971 (Jan 30, 2007)

Yup they messed up.. I also just got off the phone with Lansing and they said there was a computer mess up so no results will be placed yet! They told me within a few weeks The final ones should be in! So Keep On checking, and I doubt they will be selling any tags to people that have already been drawn. So now maybe there is hope for a guy with 6 or 7 points such as myself to actually GET A TAG!!:help:


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## .480 (Feb 21, 2006)

What's Up????????

Yesterday morning at 6:00 a.m.. I check the dnr website and it says "CONGRATULATIONS" you can get your bear tag.

So I stop on my way to work a a local license dealer and buy my 2007 bear tag. Now guys at work are telling me that the tag probably isn't any good.

WHAT! 

If they start taking tags away, I think that a lawsuit is in order.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

.480 said:


> What's Up????????
> 
> Yesterday morning at 6:00 a.m.. I check the dnr website and it says "CONGRATULATIONS" you can get your bear tag.
> 
> ...


Good luck, what are you gonna sue for? Talked to them earlier today, claiming it was a computer glitsh with a computer company that they have contracted for this work. If the drawing is invalid right now, I would imagine your tag is too, until it gets straightened out. Hey, same boat here, said we won.....went to get a license....could not purchase one. Wait and see.


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## soggybtmboys (Feb 24, 2007)

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There ya go.


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## JWICKLUND (Feb 13, 2005)

judohunter said:


> smart move buying your tags right away.


That still doesn't matter. CO's can seize your tag. Just like when someone "accidently" buys 2 turkey tags, or a "few" firearm deer tags.


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

JWICKLUND said:


> That still doesn't matter. CO's can seize your tag. Just like when someone "accidently" buys 2 turkey tags, or a "few" firearm deer tags.


So, what you are saying is a CO can seize a tag even if no violation of the law or an Admin rule ???? In the examples people were in violation. 

Problem is he has a valid license but, no kill tag .... 34 people purchased a license before the system went down. (thats what DNR told me)


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## perch321 (Sep 8, 2005)

Sound's the the d.n.r. messed up and are not willing to accept the blame, AGAIN,they are blaming a different company.As I recall earlier when there was a problem with the point's just before the draw,there was a post saying"that is why you should apply for your license directly through the d.n.r. as the people in the market's are minimum wage worker's" and basically uneducated in computer skill's.it make's this Guy reply at that time look silly.It would also be like them to ticket a hunter with a legally bought tag,then they wonder why there are so many less hunter's and fisherman.


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## .480 (Feb 21, 2006)

This is why I say the dnr DOESN'T need any new license fee increases.
They sound just like polititions playing the blame game.
If dnr co's can come and seize legally purchased tags, then boy oh boy watch out. Maybe the deer, or small game tags in my wallet aren't valid either.
The dnr has mud in their face and want the sportsmen to wipe it off for them.
Persons who don't perform at their required jobs shouldn't keep getting MORE money. Maybe they should be out of jobs.


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

Mistakes happen as we all know but look at it this way, if the can stall long enough so the new lic package gets passed enery one will have to pay the higher fee for your permit.:lol:


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## DTrain (Mar 16, 2005)

I just tried to check to see if I had my 1 preference point from this year and got:

Bear Preference Points are currently unavailable, please try back 6/29/2007.


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## Chrissy (Apr 17, 2007)

Scout 2 said:


> Mistakes happen as we all know but look at it this way, if the can stall long enough so the new lic package gets passed enery one will have to pay the higher fee for your permit.:lol:


you are so right...when is the new fees supposed to take place???


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## wagoneer (Nov 22, 2004)

.480 said:


> This is why I say the dnr DOESN'T need any new license fee increases.
> They sound just like polititions playing the blame game.
> If dnr co's can come and seize legally purchased tags, then boy oh boy watch out. Maybe the deer, or small game tags in my wallet aren't valid either.
> The dnr has mud in their face and want the sportsmen to wipe it off for them.
> Persons who don't perform at their required jobs shouldn't keep getting MORE money. Maybe they should be out of jobs.


Or maybe it actually was a mess up at a contracted computor house and it's because they went with the lowest bidder (cheapest source). Or maybe it is a DNR person(s) that messed up and it is becuase they only pay enough to attract the worst administrative personel. 

I say that we should not spend our time bashing the DNR when we don't know the details and instead push for fair treatment of the hunters that thought they drew.

Whatever the source of the error, I hope there is a solution for the folks that thought they drew, esp. those that already bought tags.


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## JWICKLUND (Feb 13, 2005)

malainse said:


> So, what you are saying is a CO can seize a tag even if no violation of the law or an Admin rule ???? In the examples people were in violation.
> 
> Problem is he has a valid license but, no kill tag .... 34 people purchased a license before the system went down. (thats what DNR told me)


The tags will be voided out until the bugs are fixed. This means that if you get a tag again (when they offiicially are released) you can go get a new tag and surrender your old tag. If not the department will flag your name as having a non-valid tag and you will be paid a visit by a local CO. It is not a crime to have it, it is only a crime to use it.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

I hope they give me a point this year. That would be 3, even though I have paid for five. They will probably just leave me stuck at two for a few more years.:rant: :rant: :rant:


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## deepwoods (Nov 18, 2002)

JWICKLUND said:


> The tags will be voided out until the bugs are fixed. This means that if you get a tag again (when they offiicially are released) you can go get a new tag and surrender your old tag. If not the department will flag your name as having a non-valid tag and you will be paid a visit by a local CO. It is not a crime to have it, it is only a crime to use it.


"If not" I hope they show up and give me my money back.


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## perch321 (Sep 8, 2005)

typical,isn't it they screw up and then issue threat's to "show up".


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## FixedBlade (Oct 14, 2002)

I thought the point range was capped at 5 max. and you couldn't get any more. But then again I also thought that they issued a percentage of the licenses available per unit to each point range.


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## mmac1318 (Feb 5, 2007)

I personally only applied for my point this year but I think that you guys that got screwed should demand for the name of the computer company that the DNR is blaiming it on. DNR is a govt agency that works for us and in turn so does any contractor that they hire. I think the computer cmpy should be asked some questions and see how what there reaction to this is. This is a big deal luckily they caught it fairly quickly (most likely just because some of you called and complained) but what if they didnt catch it till a month or a week before the season things would be totally different then. There would and should be law suits for lost money and time,bait fuel,hunt packages,etc. We should make a big stink about it this time just so they are more careful in the future. Well anyway thats my .02.


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## jjlrrw (May 1, 2006)

soggybtmboys said:


> Good luck, what are you gonna sue for? Talked to them earlier today, claiming it was a computer glitsh with a computer company that they have contracted for this work. If the drawing is invalid right now, I would imagine your tag is too, until it gets straightened out. Hey, same boat here, said we won.....went to get a license....could not purchase one. Wait and see.


 How would his tag be invalid? If the DNR contact him telling him of the mix up then his tag would be invalid, but if they don't contact him I dont think it is his reasonability to check back after purchasing a tag to see if there was a mix up.


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

jjlrrw said:


> but if they don't contact him I dont think it is his reasonability to check back after purchasing a tag to see if there was a mix up.


It is the responsibility of the *sportsman*,
people get too tunnel visioned about killing a bear
I'm sure that there will be some idiots that will try to skirt the law,that will know about the issue,and will play stupid after they shoot a bear and take it to a check station
all parties have to work together.....


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## deepwoods (Nov 18, 2002)

I believe I heard that it was only 30 something hunters that bought their licenses before the system was shut down. Of those I would assume some actually will draw their tag in the "re-drawing". I don't see the remaining few hunters being all too difficult to notify via letter, phone call, whatever, about the mix up in their getting licenses and also notifying them that do not have valid tags. The DNR should at the very least do that IMHO. It was their mix up to begin with and not the bear hunters.


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## jjlrrw (May 1, 2006)

sullyxlh said:


> It is the responsibility of the *sportsman*,
> people get too tunnel visioned about killing a bear
> I'm sure that there will be some idiots that will try to skirt the law,that will know about the issue,and will play stupid after they shoot a bear and take it to a check station
> all parties have to work together.....


 I agree if you know there was a screw up then yes, it is the sportsmans responsibility.

And being the screw up was noticed almost immediately in this case all who purchased a license will have a high chance of finding out even if the DNR does not notify them.

But there could be a few who purchased a license and may never get back on the DNR site or any other to learn about it and may kill a bear only to find out at check in of the problems. If the DNR does not notify the people that purchased a license then shame on the DNR. 

Maybe a partial fix to the system would be to not allow the purchase of the license for these draw/lottery hunts until a week or two after the results are released.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

mmac1318 said:


> I personally only applied for my point this year but I think that you guys that got screwed should demand for the name of the computer company that the DNR is blaiming it on. DNR is a govt agency that works for us and in turn so does any contractor that they hire. I think the computer cmpy should be asked some questions and see how what there reaction to this is. This is a big deal luckily they caught it fairly quickly (most likely just because some of you called and complained) but what if they didnt catch it till a month or a week before the season things would be totally different then. There would and should be law suits for lost money and time,bait fuel,hunt packages,etc. We should make a big stink about it this time just so they are more careful in the future. Well anyway thats my .02.


It would not take a rocket scientist to figure it out, just look around the eLicense page and you'll see a logo.

The DNR signs off on any code going into production, so it is not the computer companies fault if the DNR signed off on code that was not throughly tested.


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## solohunter (Jan 2, 2006)

i guess the DNR will have to add another page of disclaimers to the book of rules, I checked one link on the DNR webpage for points,,, and it said to check back 6/29 -->this is only for points, anyway I checked thru the link on top of the same page and it sez 3 points sorry no license?? they havent updated the points page yet.
use the "check drawing results" link rather than points,,,
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_42807---,00.html


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

first off, not getting a tag with 7 points means nothing---- thats why they call it a DRAWING not a GETTING!
NEXT ISSUE i just got my D.N.R. card with my accumilated points 6/15/07 and it was correct.


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## judohunter (Aug 29, 2000)

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI said:


> first off, not getting a tag with 7 points means nothing---- thats why they call it a DRAWING not a GETTING!
> NEXT ISSUE i just got my D.N.R. card with my accumilated points 6/15/07 and it was correct.


Look, it's real simple, it is a preference point system. It is not a DRAWING until there are less tags then there are people with points. If 50 people have 7 points and there are 100 tags, everyone with 7 points GETS a tag! Then if 100 people with 6 points apply the remaining 50 tags go into a DRAWING!


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

then explain why it says right on the front page of the 2007 bear hunting guide IMPORTANT REMINDERS! ? DRAWING RESULTS will be posted june 4th at www.michigan.gov/dnrdrawings. lets see thats 2 times it says DRAWINGS on the front page HMMMMMMMMM? DOES THAT MEAN ITS A DRAWING????


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## jjlrrw (May 1, 2006)

DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI said:


> then explain why it says right on the front page of the 2007 bear hunting guide IMPORTANT REMINDERS! ? DRAWING RESULTS will be posted june 4th at www.michigan.gov/dnrdrawings. lets see thats 2 times it says DRAWINGS on the front page HMMMMMMMMM? DOES THAT MEAN ITS A DRAWING????


 Judohunter explained the Bear drawing the same way I understand it. The Elk drawing in Mich is different and may be what you are referring to, in the Elk system someone with 0 points could get a tag over someone with 10 points.


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## NEMichsportsman (Jul 3, 2001)

I do know what you mean DMZ but "drawing" is just a word- not an all inclusive legally binding contract. If they called it a *"2007 Bear Season Guaranteed Hunt For Some and Lottery for the rest" *It would just take up a lot more space and confuse people.




All the drawing numbers will be available at the end of the month.

It will be obvious as to how many points it took for each unit and the number of successful applicants. If someone has verifiable evidence of their points and someone with fewer got a license then there is a valid argument. It is not a drawing in the same sense as the the elk permits.

All of the highest preference points are supposed to get licenses...followed by the next etc. When the lower PP holders come up and there are not enough licenses to go around then it is done randomly amongst the remaining applicants until the last license is issued....

For example last year in Baldwin Unit 114 Resident hunters applied with 6 points- 60 got licenses for a 52% success rate....

Take a look at last years and the concept should be alot clearer:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/05_bear_drawing_results_161311_7.pdf


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## Ferris_StateHunter (Apr 24, 2006)

Its actually very simple... Bear is not a drawing...They just go down the line. most points to fewest points. After that then it is a drawing. They select the remaning licenses at random (or the lowest number of points at random) Example. 50 tags left and they filled all the ones with 4 points and above, and 100 people who apply for the tags have 3 points then there is a lottery to decide the 50 out of 100 who get the tag. 

Now elk, seeing as how there is a limited number of elk permits, usually 100 per year unstead of the 100's per unit a year for bear. 
All the preference points do is give you one more entry in the drawing, which means your name is in twice. And so on with points. Therefore people with more points have more entries, but still have limited chance considereing the number of entries. so yes preference points help, but when your talking about 2 chances out of 500,000 or however many, chances are still slim.


Now about the bear, All who recieved confirmed tags should be given a tag no questions asked (for next years hunt) if when they redraw again and do not recieve a tag. Some may have set up bear guides and such already. If a license was bought they should be refunded, and then given a guaranteed hunt for next year, just my personal thoughts on it. Something like computer error in your favor.


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## DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI (Sep 23, 2002)

ok, lets see here. you have to KNOW first hand that there is 50 tags for area 114 and than you have to know there is only 50 people with say those MAGIC 7 points in order to make this not a DRAWING. then on the other hand if there is only 48 tags and 50 people have that MAGIC 7 points it all of a sudden becomes a drawing. so all in all the glass becomes half full or half empty. now lets go to the red oaks area and take a looksee and see if we have a DRAWING or a GIVEN. 10,000 apply for permit with the MAGIC 7 points and 3,000 tags available is this a DRAWING or are the 3,000 out of 10,000 a given.
ok maybe the bear drawing/raffle is not exactly like the elk drawing but who cares? without knowing all and i mean all the exact numbers being dealt with at the time of application (numbers of permits versus number of persons with x amount of points for each area) it is a drawing. only after all those magic numbers are posted with all the detailed information pertaining to each area and how many tags were drawn with x amount of points per each tag given can you even begin to say it wasn't a drawing in that SPECIFIC HUNT AREA!
sorry, only those dealing with those numbers are going to be prevy to that information. also if an ERROR was made guess what? is was an ERROR, and people make mistakes and people make computers and people program computers. the old saying is GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. gigo=oooops try next year. SORRY, BUT THATS LIFE!


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## TheBigEasy (Dec 27, 2004)

deepwoods said:


> I hope this doesn't get screwy. We have already purchased all of our licenses on-line this morning after seeing our party of 4 was successful in drawing.
> 
> I got a bit of the "pucker factor" going on.


I'm with you. I already purchased my tag, my whole party did.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

It's very simple, a mistake was made the results were voided out and another drawing was made based on the DNR's policies and procedures. It's not a perfect system but a fair system; the sportsman with the most PPs hunt and the ones with less points dream of hunting in the future. The only unfortunate part is that tags will go unpurchased and some tags will not even make the field. Those are the ones who are doing the screwing.

For the ones who didn't draw; good luck with your future draws. For the ones who did draw get prepared you make your own luck. Practice with your weapon of choice, know your shot placement you are not shooting a deer http://www.nbef.org/newsreader.CFM?featureid=29, scout your area, get your bait lined up, preapre your bait site well ahead of time, line up your outfitter and so on. Above all good luck and please don't post about the one you wounded, it makes me sick reading about all the wounded deer starting on October 1st.

Just my $0.02

*http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10856_10890-25983--,00.html

Preference Point System

Bear licenses are issued to hunters through a preference point system that began in 2000. Hunters receive a preference point each year that they apply for a bear license and are unsuccessful in drawing a tag. In the license drawing, applicants with the greatest number of points in each hunt are issued licenses first. Upon selection for a license, an applicant's preference points will return to zero, including successful applicants who choose not to purchase their license.
Each hunter's preference points are tracked by the customer ID. If applicants use a different ID to apply than used in previous years (or use an incorrect ID), their previous points will not be considered in the drawing. If there is a change in ID, applicants must call (517) 373-3904 before the application deadline to ensure that their points are combined under their current ID. Applicants may check their preference point status Michigan E-License: www.mdnr-elicense.com
Bear drawing success rates vary by bear management unit and hunt date. An applicant with no preference points may be drawn for a hunt that is in low demand, while a unit in higher demand may require 5 or more points to draw a tag. From year to year, applicants may apply for any hunt they choose, and their total preference points will be considered in each drawing.
Applicants may apply for a harvest tag or apply for a preference point only, banking the point for future drawings. Applicants must be of legal age to hunt in this year's bear hunting season to be eligible to apply for a preference point (Hunt No. 00). Only one point will be awarded in a given year.
Persons who fail to apply or are ineligible to apply for a license for three consecutive years will lose their points.

*


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## thunderman (Mar 10, 2005)

*In the license drawing, applicants with the greatest number of points in each hunt are issued licenses first.*

*according to this, looks like i have to call tracy (dnr) again. my buddy drew a tag for the same hunt i applied for with less points. *


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## .480 (Feb 21, 2006)

I think that the unsuccessful guys must be forgetting to put in an extra $100.00 bill in with their application. lol........


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## Nwing (Aug 17, 2005)

sullyxlh said:


> It is the responsibility of the *sportsman*,
> people get too tunnel visioned about killing a bear
> I'm sure that there will be some idiots that will try to skirt the law,that will know about the issue,and will play stupid after they shoot a bear and take it to a check station
> all parties have to work together.....


All well and good...but if I go buy, say a doe license, and the area I apply for is listed as open, with tags available, and I then buy a tag...I don't think I should need to then later check BACK again with the dnr "just in case" they screwed up.
Same situation here.. If a guy has purchased his license, after seeing that he was successful...there is every chance they may NOT just decide on a whim to make sure there were no screw ups. How often SHOULD they check, for that matter..every day? Every week?
See the point? AFTER the license was purchased, they likely won't see any need to check...after all, in their minds they were successful, it said right there on the dnr site, and so they bought a license.
IMO, if one of these guys gets a bear...too bad for the DNR, it's their fault, NOT the guy who may very well NOT just decide to check AGAIN after he gets his tag.


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