# Misunderstood Cartridges



## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Keeping in mind that only 1/2 or 2/3's of Michigan is rifle elligable, I was just wondering what some of the interesting Cartridges Members on Here hunt with. I'm talking about Rodney Dangerfield Cartridges that don't get any respect, Subject to put downs, but embraced by groups of people who understand them and want to travel the Road less taken. Basically, 30-30's, 308's/30-06's don't qualify here. Yes they are great cartridges but that is the point. They are popular and vastly widespread.

I have personal experience directly with two cartridges that have received a lot of bias against them over the Years, the 350 Remington Magnum, and the 444 Marlin. While I have experience with numerous other cartridges, These two stand out as the most often bullied when I talk about them. I would like to hear from anyone else with pet calibers, and feel free to talk about your experiences with them. No post will be too long. I just ask that people refrain from posting about other commentators' choices in a negative way. Post away..


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Although I now use a .30-06, I have hunted with a .35 Rem and .303 British.


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

A very good friend of mine uses .22 hornet for deer.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

petronius said:


> Although I now use a .30-06, I have hunted with a .35 Rem and .303 British.


I loved it and still ticked that it was sold while I joined the military. finally got a 35 lever, but its not the same.. a great woods gun though.

I like my 7mm 08 it rivals the 30.06 in performance and does circles around the 308. I always wanted a 35 whelen finally got one. I"m assuming similar charactoristics as the 350 rem. I studied it once and remembered I opted for the 35 whelen. and then the whelen was discontinued. I have on now...

I love that performance the 200 yard accuracy and bull force dropping power, without the 300 mag holes in the deer, but haven't shot it at a deer yet.

the old 300 savages, how did they ever lose popularity?

the 8mm mauser, an extreme MI white tail rifle. again lost popularity, but I don't know why. deer just dont' run when hit with that or the .35 

I can go on and on, but I better not.

Good thread junkman, I love the unusual calibers. MOst of them aren't popular for reasons other than quality. in fact like the 280. it's a better round than the 270, yet the 270 sells....


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## PiercedOne (Sep 7, 2007)

Had a 308 Norma for a little while, unfortunatly never got to deer hunt with it but sighting it in that thing was deadly accurate. 

Basically the ballistic equilivant to a 300 win mag but due to marketing and the intro of the 300 win mag 308 has gone by the way side.


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## freshwater drum (Mar 17, 2007)

.280 remington. most people ask "what is that". when i got into handloading i wanted something different and thats what i got. i love it.


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## fathom this (Feb 10, 2008)

freshwater drum said:


> .280 remington. most people ask "what is that". when i got into handloading i wanted something different and thats what i got. i love it.


I second that Drum. I love my .280 Rem and she shoots flatter and has less kick than the 30-06. You can load them up to some impressive levels also.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

I prefer to rifle hunt with my model 1881 Marlin lever action in 40-60 cal. (mfg date: 1886) It shoots a .407" cast 280gr bullet. The rifle is original and been in the family since purchased new.

It took me a long time to get to shoot this old rifle because of lack of ammunition and availability. Buffalo Arms Co. took care of the availability problems! It surprised me with its accuracy out to 100yds. Took my first deer with it a couple years ago.. the story is here http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262821


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## 8iowa (Jan 28, 2008)

I hunted this past season with a .358 Winchester in a Browning BLR. Gun writers extol the virtues of this cartridge, but it was never really caught on with the hunting public.

Encore: Hunting with a 40-60 is real cool. I hope that you are using black powder in that soft steel rifle.


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## gunsngolfn (Feb 12, 2009)

Winchester Mod. 71 348 handed down to me from my Dad and I passed it on to my oldest son, and he still uses it from time to time an awesome white tail gun.


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## Redone (Jan 16, 2010)

8iowa said:


> I hunted this past season with a .358 Winchester in a Browning BLR. Gun writers extol the virtues of this cartridge, but it was never really caught on with the hunting public.
> 
> Encore: Hunting with a 40-60 is real cool. I hope that you are using black powder in that soft steel rifle.


Same caliber in a Savage 99 - absolute whitetail poison


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## Hammer62 (Oct 20, 2010)

I have a bolt action gun my neighbor made me that fires a 7.62 x .39 (AK-47 round) that is an absolute joy to hunt with and surprisingly, that little bullet drop deer in their tracks.


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## SwiftHntr.17 (Jul 23, 2007)

Second on the "FIREPLUG" Remington's .350 Magnum, which was the original short mag before the WSM and WSSM. Jeff Cooper had a lot to say about this cartridge in the 600 Remington carbine which was a gun built before it's time.

My next favorite ol' cartridge would be the .257 Bob.


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## karl (Oct 21, 2009)

.32 Win Spl in a Model 94. I little better than a 30-30 but never really took off because the 30-30 was so popular in the same timeframe. Also a .250 Savage. I have a model 99 in 250 Savage that people ask "Do you really hunt deer with that?" Yep, and it never fails me. I love that caliber and that rifle.


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## old professor (Oct 26, 2008)

.260 Remington. Light wt., low recoil, very accurate. All the deer I have taken with it have been one shot kills. My go-to deer rifle!


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## jayzbird (May 19, 2005)

I've got a few I hunt or have hunted with....

1. Winchester 94 big bore in .444 Marlin- Also love the cartridge but wanted something different than a Marlin guide gun or 444S.
2. Ruger model 77 bolt in 7X57 Mauser. Don't see that round hardly in any newer factiory rifles.
3. Ruger model 77RSI bolt in .250 Savage. Got rid of it and am still kicking myself 8 years later. Stupid!
4. Remington model 81 semi auto in .300 Savage. Interesting JMB design. Really fun to shoot.
5. Winchester Model 88 in .243 Win. Don't see many of these in this caliber, most are .308's. Wonderfully accurate.
6. Mosin-Nagant sniper in 7.62x54R. You should see the looks I get with it. A accurate gun for being as rough and crude as it is. Horrible trigger though.
7. A .303 Enfield sporterized that I got passed down from my grandfather. Pretty nice whoever did it, not the normal hack job that you see usually.

I'm sure I've got more just can't think of em right now.... Funny thing is I have less use for a rifle than a shotgun now because I hunt mostly under the shotgun border. Buddy just got a new piece of property just above the line last year so it has me excited to start using my rifles again and not for just punching paper.


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## Redone (Jan 16, 2010)

I will be receiving an Remington 700 in .264 Winchester Magnum. Very rarely see that caliber around here anymore although I hear it's quite popular out west. Bought brand new in the early 70's - pristine and the old man still refers to her as deerslayer.


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## 8iowa (Jan 28, 2008)

Redone:

Back in the mid 60's Winchester really promoted their new .264 Mag. Reloading was not nearly as popular back then, but those who did reload found that the 264's throat was designed for a two step bore riding bullet, and standard 6.5mm bullets had to be seated very deeply. Coupled with the fact that the 1965 model 70 was a real "dog". It's not surprising that the 264 Win was a flop.

I believe that newer 264's have a throat that will accomodate the wide range of 6.5 bullets on the market today. If one has an older rifle, a good gunsmith can fix this problem.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

In the US the 7 x 57 doesn't get nearly the recognition or respect it deserves. It is one of, if not the most popular sporting cartridge worldwide.


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## jigworm (Jan 10, 2003)

My grandpa carried a 8mm Lebel (8x50mm). I think Norma still carries the cartrige, but it's not something you'll find in the average sporting good store. He had two, I have the 1916 Le Ettene and my brother has the 1907 Lebel. Both have been "sporterized". The 1907 has the original stock cut down a bit and grandpa replaced the 1916 stock with one he made. Those old guys could fix anything....


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

model 92 winchester in 38-40, handloads, jacketed hollowpoints with 24 grains of 2400. moving as fast as a 30-30. open sites, i can nail a squirrel at 75 yards with it LOL

i use poured lead for my pistol loads and the jhp only in the rifle and i know never ever put a jhp in the revolver or bad things will happen


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## Curt (Jan 5, 2011)

I shot my first buck in 1961 with a borrowed Win. Mod. 94 in .32 spl. Since then, most of my deer hunting has been with a "Hand Me Down" Mod. 99 Savage (Takedown) in .300 cal. that was my grandfather's and was manufactured in 1923.


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## tedshunter (Dec 27, 2004)

I have been using my Remington 788 in 7mm-08 for the last 18 years or so and never even thought about changing to another Cal.


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## kotimaki (Feb 13, 2009)

.41 rem mag , 357 maximum , 445 supermag , 6mm rem , 35 moose juicer


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

petronius said:


> I have a 7mm Mauser (Spanish 1916) somewhere in the basement. I'll have to dig it out. I read that the ballistics is close to a .284.


I do believe I acquired one of them last summer, missing the bolt. But I think it's a 5.5 or 6mm, not sure, but it's barrel is smaller than the .243 and bigger than my 223. it's a mauser action. And resembles every thing I've seen Spanish from that era.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

ENCORE said:


> I prefer to rifle hunt with my model 1881 Marlin lever action in 40-60 cal. (mfg date: 1886) It shoots a .407" cast 280gr bullet. The rifle is original and been in the family since purchased new.


Wow, I have to say, You get top award for Rarest used. Would love to see pictures of your rifle if you have any. That rifle was Marlin's introductory rifle, and beat Winchester to the punch with a lever-action made to handle the 45-70. 

Sorry for the Delay in posting, I have been sick. I noticed a lot of good posts on here, some that don't quite fit, some that are perfect examples, and some that fell victim to simply being forgotten. 

*300 Savage vs 308 *- The 308 was developed off the savage, and offered a bit more powder space. 

*358 WCF *- great cartridge, but none of the rifles made for it were considered particularily accurate. Funny how all the hype about the 338 Federal was given compared to the 358 Win.

*280 Rem(*Also 7mm-08*)* - Doesn't really apply, but often overlooked here in the east. It is much more popular out west, but gets ignored compared to the 270 Win, or 30-06. Great cartridge though.

Some of the older military rifles I am not supprised to hear about, However, I am supprised that no one has mentioned the 30-40 Krag yet. 

For *PUTMAN*, You mentioned the 35 Whelen, another favorite of mine. What is your rifle that it is chambered in? Remington has not discontinued this round, and It is still offered in their new 750 Autoloading rifle, and also an 18.5" carbine form as well.

One Question.. Anyone else here ever heard of a .35 Moose Juicer?!


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Oh, and Hello to you too CDAD.

I do believe that your comment is correct. Being the Cartidge to serve America through 4 wars I wouldn't be Supprised. Although, you might find it interesting that in the last one, both the 30-06, and the 444 both Served!! 

There was a Marine who bought a 444 For Personal use and had it shipped over to vietnam where he used it as an entry weapon in the tunnels over there. I think he had it chopped and modified, but interesting none the less.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

brock_gingery86 said:


> Wow, I have to say, You get top award for Rarest used. Would love to see pictures of your rifle if you have any. That rifle was Marlin's introductory rifle, and beat Winchester to the punch with a lever-action made to handle the 45-70.


Here ya go......


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Awesome Encore, That is a beautiful rifle and looks to have been extremely well cared for. It must have been a Cherished Family rifle even back to the first of your family that inherrited it. Anyone looking at the picture should recognize the Burgess Style Loading gate cover, and the fact that it looks very similar (Outwardly) to the Burgess rifle that Colt firearms produced for a short time.


It's been my hope to aquire one sometime in the future when money permits. the two shooting quality Leverguns on my wishlist are currently are an original Marlin 1881 probably in .45-85, and a winchester 1895 in .35 Winchester.


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## Cpt.Chaos (May 28, 2006)

I would like to get a Steyr Manlicher Classic full stock in 9.3 x 62, but too much $$$$....maybe get the CZ full stock version of it.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Munsterlndr said:


> I owned a Model 99 in .22 Savage High Power for a while and I was seriously tempted to try and harvest a deer with it but decided that using living targets "just to see if I could" was probably the wrong thing to do, so I sold it. That was the closest I have ever come to using an "inappropriate" cartridge, although I have used a .357 magnum pistol and some would argue that it's borderline.


I dunno, a 70 grain bullet at 2900 fps I think would do it and that's comparable to a 223 and it seems to be getting pretty popular. That said, I'm not a huge fan of using them for deer, there's a lot better tools for that job IMHO. My grandfather used to use it back in the 20's/30's and took some deer.

I'm a sucker for oddball cartridges, a few I like are my 348 Win, 358 Win. I have a 280 also and despite claims of it's superiority over the 270 (I have both). They're near identical and I sure can't tell much difference.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

brock_gingery86 said:


> *358 WCF *- great cartridge, but none of the rifles made for it were considered particularily accurate. Funny how all the hype about the 338 Federal was given compared to the 358 Win.


Not particularly accurate? 

My BLR:



















And from another member's (beartracker) Hawkeye:




























The newer one's are pretty accurate.. You must be referring to the 88's and 99's?


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

M1Garand, Nope.. The 358 was chambered in the modle 99 savage, model 88 winchester lever actions, the Ruger model 77, and I can't remember about any remingtons from the time. Accuracy by what is considered accurate todaynamely around an inch for groups, was somewhat hit or miss. Don't know if it was crappy chambering jobs or what, but you would get a rifle to shoot nice little 1.5 inch 5 shot groups which is wonderfully accurate in a big medium bore hunting rifle, and then the next one might shoot 3 inch groups, possibly shrinking to 2.5 inches with carefull handloading. 

The fact that this cartridge was not taken care off publically and in manufacture was an absolute shame. First, it was branded as a "Short Range" Rifle/Cartridge combination, which to most americans means inside 125 yards. They Should have Tried saying Medium range instead. It also was loaded with very Blunt shaped bullets, and at a time when fast magnums like the 300 and 264 win mags, and the 7mm mag were considered the option of choice. It basically showed up at the wrong time, ahead of its time, just like the 350 remington. 

Modern rifles chambered for it are much better taken care of, like the compact guns from ruger, and also very accurate. If you have an older gun that is as accurate as those photos claim, KEEP IT!!! Don't sell that sucker for anything. I have a Rifle like that Myself. My 673 in 350 Remington mag. I bought it used and I don't know why the guy sold it. It will print 3 shot half inch groups at 100 yards with a K2.5X Weaver scope, Using Factory Ammunition! The guy who sold it Ain't getting it back! Can't wait to develop my handloads for it.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

As a side note, anyone looking to find some of the Original Ruger Rifles chambered for the 358 Winchester, they had their own letter designation if I remember right. If you are looking for one, I think the Model number was "*77R*", but my memory is a little rusty. I'll try and find out and post about it, since those were some of the rarer versions if I got my facts right.


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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

IMHO, from some of the posts on here in the last week, the 444 Marlin and 44 Magnum are some of the most misunderstood cartridges out there. It's still gonna take some more convincing before I come onboard, but I'm starting to believe the 444 is THE cartridge all others should be judged against 

On a more serious note, my personal favorite is the 30 Aardvark.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Quack Addict said:


> IMHO, from some of the posts on here in the last week, the 444 Marlin and 44 Magnum are some of the most misunderstood cartridges out there. It's still gonna take some more convincing before I come onboard, but I'm starting to believe the 444 is THE cartridge all others should be judged against


I don't think it is the THE STANDARD, but for a Cartridge, it has probably had more resistance to it than any other in the 20th century. The 44 was a Hit as soon as it introduced, but "Dirty" Harry Callahan sealed the deal and the 44 Magnum is now one of the most popular cartridges in use in part because of those movies. That is what caused the insane markups when the shortage of firearms in 44 mag hit.

Now, The 444 when it was introduced came about when magnum Flat shooting bolt Rifles were all the rage. Classic styling was out, and new flashy designs in rifles and stocks were in. The Weatherby Monte Carlo look with white line spacers was the default look. The 60's wasn't just the time for psychedelic colors, new rifle designs using the first plastic and composites were in production as well. from remington most notably, the Nylon 22, and the Models 600 and 660. The last Big bore levergun offered was discontinued in the early 50's, and wasn't a big bore at all. It was the 348 Winchester. 

Marlin brought out the 444 at a time when to most people, a lever action was a woods/swamp gun not much good past 100 yards. On top of that, it was a new cartridge most people would not relate to because their father's had not hunted with it. The 30-30, .32 special, and 35 Remington were the big players in eastern hunting camps. Then Came the Gun Scribes. 

Most predicted "An Early Death" for the 444 Marlin, and "A cartridge chambered in one make and model of rifle, from one manufacturer, and loaded by only one ammunition company in one load is bound to fail." Early teething problems stemming from the use of 240gr pistol bullets not up to the velocity offered by the 444 hurt its image as well. BUT, It hung on. It has survived to this day and each person who has taken a serious look at the cartridge and what it can do, openly accepting it, and embracing it has kept it alive and at times, seeing introductions from other rifle companies offering rifles in the sometimes more often produced 45-70.

Today you can find enthusiests for it in just about every state, and it really doesn't matter what rifle. Some who love single shots have had custom rolling block actions made for it. Others, Custom short bolt actions. It's even been offered in a revolver. All of that on top of the vast majority of lever actions. The 444 has met a lot of resistance along the way, from shooters interested in only the newest fastest offerings, to the gun writers of the day it was introduced, and even from company bias(Winchester Refused to put another Manufacturers name on it's guns, and tried the 307, 356, and 375 Winchesters before finally giving in and offering a 444.). It has had to fight a lot, but it is still here, and always pulls its weight for those who use it.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

brock_gingery86 said:


> M1Garand, Nope.. The 358 was chambered in the modle 99 savage, model 88 winchester lever actions, the Ruger model 77, and I can't remember about any remingtons from the time. Accuracy by what is considered accurate todaynamely around an inch for groups, was somewhat hit or miss. Don't know if it was crappy chambering jobs or what, but you would get a rifle to shoot nice little 1.5 inch 5 shot groups which is wonderfully accurate in a big medium bore hunting rifle, and then the next one might shoot 3 inch groups, possibly shrinking to 2.5 inches with carefull handloading.
> 
> The fact that this cartridge was not taken care off publically and in manufacture was an absolute shame. First, it was branded as a "Short Range" Rifle/Cartridge combination, which to most americans means inside 125 yards. They Should have Tried saying Medium range instead. It also was loaded with very Blunt shaped bullets, and at a time when fast magnums like the 300 and 264 win mags, and the 7mm mag were considered the option of choice. It basically showed up at the wrong time, ahead of its time, just like the 350 remington.
> 
> Modern rifles chambered for it are much better taken care of, like the compact guns from ruger, and also very accurate. If you have an older gun that is as accurate as those photos claim, KEEP IT!!! Don't sell that sucker for anything. I have a Rifle like that Myself. My 673 in 350 Remington mag. I bought it used and I don't know why the guy sold it. It will print 3 shot half inch groups at 100 yards with a K2.5X Weaver scope, Using Factory Ammunition! The guy who sold it Ain't getting it back! Can't wait to develop my handloads for it.


Agreed, an awesome round. Those targets are from modern rifles (my BLR and M77 Hawkeye of Beartrackers). Beartracker got some awesome loadings with the 225 Accubond and the one hole group is with the 225 Sierra. Any 88 or 99 I see chambered for it, commands a pretty high price. I want to say there were also a few old M70's chambered in it, but I could be wrong.


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## mwakely (Jan 7, 2004)

25-06 kind of an odd ball and it kills deer, yotes and goats!


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

M1Garand said:


> I want to say there were also a few old M70's chambered in it, but I could be wrong.


 
Yep, I believe there were, but again, fell victim to not being taken care of from a manufacturers standpoint. Plus, Winchester Lost a lot of it's reputation in 1964. To understand that, you have to understand the Company and it's history. I have a Quote by JM Browning that illustrates that point oh so well when he came up with his auto-5 Shotgun.

And thank you for reminding me, but I think the Original browing BLR's with the straight grip and barrel band were chambered at one time for the 358 winchester. 

As a final point on this cartridge, there is one other issue it had that caused some problems. Resized cases from other 308 cartridge calibers left the case neck too thin, and sometimes cause an uneven thickness as the brass stretched too far. If you have one, it is best to get quality purpose made brass from one of the major makers, or if you must reform brass, use super premium brass such as 308's from lapua, or the new 338 federal, as they won't give as much problems.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

mwakely said:


> 25-06 kind of an odd ball and it kills deer, yotes and goats!


 
Possibly, but still, it is common in some places. Just one of those seldom mentioned rounds I guess. Anyways, a Family member of mine had an original 25-06. It was chambered when it was still a wildcat and could use only custom formed and handloaded amunition. The rifle would not chamber Factory Fodder. If you have one of those in your family, makes for an interesting conversation piece. Heck, any wildcat round will do. I have numerous Ideas for Wildcats I want to try, including bolt actions, lever actions and others. One is a 480 Ruger necked down to a 41 caliber for the short action marlin. Would have to have the bolt face modified to fit it, but it would yield a nice compact levergun with higher velocity, flat trajectory, and enough power to take game up to and including moose. I have even designed my own 260gr bullet(Hard Cast, 4 lube grooves) to go with it for use on big game.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

Velocity gain is a little more than that and generally around 150 fps. The 7-08 does very well given it's smaller case capacity but in the end, it still has less grains case capacity. In same bullets, it equals a grand total of about 15 yards more MPBR with a 140 grain bullet, which says a lot about the 7-08 and why it's popular with many.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ok Quack Addict, Lets Settle this right now. You are cherrypicking content. 

In that discussion about the 30-06 vs the 44mag, It was not about my feelings of those cartridges at all. It was on the fundamentally biased and faulty logic of shooters who will look at one cartridge and claim it is superior to other similar rounds, or other rounds commonly used for the same purpose. In this case it was about shooters who feel that a 44mag in a rifle may only be used out to 100 yards, while the 30-06 they feel being far superior is a perfect 400yard deer rifle and therefore much better at killing deer at the SAME 100 yards. Now, These people will often turn around and mount a scope on a Ruger Super Blackhawk and feel that not only is that 44 Mag now powerful enough for deer at 150 yards, but that it suddenly becomes a powerful enough cartridge in a handgun(When it was not in a rifle) to take brown bear or other dangerous game. 

Also, If you had read my post on my wildcat cartridge design You would realize I was talking about increasing performance in a rifle MEANT FOR PISTOL CARTRIDGES. Now because you so wonderfully left this little bit of information out of your quote because it contradicts and does nothing in the way of giving weight to your claim, you either must admit to being ignorant to a fault, or that you intended to do such on purpose for the intent of causing the defamation of another person.

Now, lets get down to the Nitty Gritty, While you are making a personal attack on me, you did not even bother to asking me first what My opinion on the .280 is, Especially since it is one of my Favorite Cartridges! 

Possibly the hardest thing for a person to ever do is admit they are wrong. You remind me of a little kid who has stated an opinion. He thinks that this opinion should apply to everybody, and that anyone who thinks different is just a moron. It suddenly becomes his job to prove to those people how wrong they are and should think just like him. He will use sections of reports, omitting an entire book worth of work for one sentence that when presented will make it seem like proof he is right. He will use quotes from famous people, telling only part of the quote, and leaving off the second half because the full quote may show both sides and cast doubt on his position. When Arguing it does not matter what anyone else says. IF they say the world is round he will say _"No, The Earth is round. I'm right, you're Wrong!"_ If you want to be a little kid, then go over and sit in the corner until you can grow up and be a big boy. 

For anyone reading this, I highly recomend you go and read through the threads Quack-Addict was posting selections from, one of them is this one on the Wildcat I came up with. The others I will gladly post links to the threads if anyone asks for them, but they are easy to find on your own. Now, this also applies to anyone. If you have proof that something I have said is incorrect, send me a link to the proof and question me about it. there may be a variable I forgot to mention as it pertained to that circumstance. If I am wrong about something, I am wrong. No shame in that, and I will gladly come on here and make a post correcting the earlier statement in question, and give credit to the person who pointed it out congratulating them.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

M1Garand said:


> Velocity gain is a little more than that and generally around 150 fps. The 7-08 does very well given it's smaller case capacity but in the end, it still has less grains case capacity. In same bullets, it equals a grand total of about 15 yards more MPBR with a 140 grain bullet, which says a lot about the 7-08 and why it's popular with many.


 
I left something out of that, and I in no way meant to imply that you knew nothing about the cartridge or handloading. When I post statements on here, I try and word them so that anyone who reads them but doesn't have that knowledge or experience can look at it and go "Oh, so that is why that happens." Lets face it, it's a forum. There are lots of people viewing and reading off of it, some who aren't even members, they just read but don't post, and I am pretty sure that there are some 10 year olds who cruise this site because they live in Michigan and love to hunt and fish with their families. 

Now, I should point out that Various powders work best with a certain bullet in a certain capacity case for those people out there who do not reload. A powder optimum for a short case may not give optimum performance in a longer case. Shorter barrels affect things differently than longer barrels. Smokeless powder can basically be altered for anything from burn rate to pressure curve by the manufacturer. Basically this means that they design that powder to work a certain way within a range of cartridges but that the powder is consumed in the barrel and neither over extends itself, or runs short of power for an ideal charge for the cartridge. As a 444 handloader I know that while H4198 or IMR 4198 are good for lighter weight bullets, for heavy bullets I need to switch to a powder such as H335 for optimum pressure and velocity. 

Now, in the case of getting 300fps over a 7mm-08, my friends rifle was tested with a chronograph. This was a personal load for his rifle he developed and great care was taken when he was shooting, measuring case wall thickness and watching for signs of over pressuring. Each rifle will handle individual loads differently. So just because his did, doesn't mean yours can handle that load as well with the same results. When he found the ideal powder for his bullet and barrel length(24 inches) he worked it up till the cases showed signs of over pressuring, and then backed them down a hair. He wants to run his rifle at full throttle and has a load that does so but is still safe in that rifle.

Now, M1Garand, this part is specifically meant for you, not everyone else reading. You have my apologies for making you think that I felt you knew nothing about handloading or the cartridge. That is the farthest thing from the truth. My own experiences have been shooting from the age of 4 anything from shotguns, rifles, handguns, muzzle-loaders of all action types. Handlaoding began around age 15 or so, and Has been going quite enjoyably for the past 10 years. I handload mostly for myself and family members, and the one area I have not gotten into is reloading shotshells as of yet. I have worked with friends and done handloads for them when they want stuff like that but don't want to put out the money for a reloading setup of their own. I currently do not own a 280, but that is not because I have no wish to own one. One of the things done in gunsmithing school is that you build your own custom rifle. This is for your own personal use or for display in a shop if you open your own business after school. I plan on doing a rifle chambered for the 280 then. It's a great cartridge, very accurate, and my own personal favorite load that I have shot out of it is a 160gr Nosler Partition. I would use it on deer, elk, or moose with no hesitation on my part.


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

brock_gingery86 said:


> Now, in the case of getting 300fps over a 7mm-08, my friends rifle was tested with a chronograph. This was a personal load for his rifle he developed and great care was taken when he was shooting, measuring case wall thickness and watching for signs of over pressuring. Each rifle will handle individual loads differently. So just because his did, doesn't mean yours can handle that load as well with the same results. When he found the ideal powder for his bullet and barrel length(24 inches) he worked it up till the cases showed signs of over pressuring, and then backed them down a hair. He wants to run his rifle at full throttle and has a load that does so but is still safe in that rifle.


The 24" barrel helps (mines a 22") but case pressure signs are not a reliable pressure indicator like they were once thought to be, even though many still cite loads that "had no pressure signs". Ken Water's did his whole career using case head expansion but even that was found to not be as accurate as once thought, but probably better than looking for flattened primers or other case indicators. But the bottom line is velocity does equal pressure because the velocity is a direct result of the pressure. The rule of thumb between pressure and velocity is that pressure rises at twice the rate of velocity. In equal length barrels if I was getting much over 200 fps over a 7-08, I'd suspect I was pushing the pressure envelope. Do you know what his load is? Bullet, powder and charge, OAL and his exact velocities? I'll drop it into Quick Load and see what it comes up with.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

d0wnriver said:


> I've yet to take it afield but I purchased a surplus 7.62x39 as a deer/general purpose rifle. (Poor mans deer rifle, as its called). Anxious to actually make it out for a deer season.
> 
> plan on using 154gr soft points.
> 
> As soon as people find out its the round used in the AK they cringe. No respect I tell ya, no respect!


I respect any body that enjoys their sks. I love mine, cept that short stock gets me in the lower lip now n then (ouch).

But to use it for deer hunting..? 

Are you using a game load loaded for deer hunting? That rifle has an awesome place in life (plinking and wounding people eventually leading to death from internal damages). 

It wasn't designed to kill on impact. The military's learned a long time ago that shrapnel is more effective than a mushroom for disabling the enemy troops... unfortunately that's a slow death. In the case of deer hunting, it leads to a lot of tracking, which leads to an unusually high number of deer mortality, but not recovered (wasted).

I've been witness to a handful of deer shot (eventually died) where the hunter didn't even know the deer was hit. It's knock down power is so little the average hunter doesn't even recognized a hit.

One time the DNR recovered a poached doe with in excess of 30 rounds in it. The hunters were on the other side of the soup bowl and had no clue they were hitting the deer (or being watched by the DNR). The DNR didn't know they were hitting the deer. In all of it's irony, that deer ran for some time and when the DNR got back to their vehicle, there laied the deer, it died next to their vehicle.

if you have a better option for deer hunting I"d strongly recommend it (of course using the thought process of getting your meat that you kill and human hunting methods).

I do realize that they do make specific game loads for the SKS, I strongly encourage you use that if you continue using the SKS.

The SKS in the past few short years has successfully left more wounded deer than most all others, combined.

That statement isn't necessarily backed by hard evidence rather than assumptions based on finds by the DNR and other hunters/property owners, and those that use/d the SKS.

A single shot shot gun can be bought for similar money, a muzzle loader can also, with a good 200 yard capability. With an SKS in most cases we are merely slinging lead, dangerously.

Assuming you believe I'm wrong and mis-informed,please take advantage of that and educate me and the likes of me that have developed a negative bias towards the SKS as a capable/ethical deer gun.

Thanks and I'm sure there are a number of us that anxiously await the forthcoming education.


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## amon (May 8, 2002)

Putnam Lake: Very well put and very respectful comment. I wish we had more comments like yours instead of the "why don't you shut up and maybe you'll learn something around here" comments that I've been seeing lately.


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## youp50 (Jan 14, 2011)

Wow 22 Savage Hi Power.

My Grandfather was born and raised in Sand River. Not much now, just a little west of Munising. He and Uncle Henry were the youngest of a rather large family. On about WW1 they would get one bullet and be expected to bring home the venison. 

My Gramps shot a big 8 point behind the ribs through the spine. The little bullet broke the buck's back. So the two of them danced around a white pine top. Gramps was sometimes chasing and most times running, trying to finish off the deer with his knife. The buck lashed out and caught Gramps a good one across the forehead, leaving a scar that he was buried with.

He staggered home and Great Gramma sewed him up and gave Uncle Henry another round and sent him after the rifle and buck. After that they always got two bullets, but they better not use them both.

I guess the good old days weren't always so good, hey?


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## Apple Knocker (Feb 7, 2009)

My wife has killed 20 deer in the last 9 seasons with 20 shots, no misses, no 2nd shots, very little or no tracking. .260 Rem. 120 gr Ballistic tips, Federal Premiums. Browning A-Bolt Medallion. Almost never a pass-through, good shot placement, deer absorbs all the energy (I'm kind of guessing here). She never hunted before we retired, never shot a gun except at carnivals. Making up for lost time. I've killed a lot of deer with .270, 30/06, various bullet weights and designs. Don't handload any longer, but with nearly identical shots, I believe the .260 will often drop the deer quicker, or certainly, just as well.


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## Critter (Mar 3, 2006)

Putman Lake Campground said:


> One time the DNR recovered a poached doe with in excess of 30 rounds in it. The hunters were on the other side of the soup bowl and had no clue they were hitting the deer (or being watched by the DNR). The DNR didn't know they were hitting the deer. In all of it's irony, that deer ran for some time and when the DNR got back to their vehicle, there laied the deer, it died next to their vehicle.


 I want to know where you live that the DNR sat and watched a poacher take 30 shots at a deer. :lol:

I'll agree that the 7.62x39 is not an ideal cartridge for deer. Milsup ammo is the worse stuff out there. I've seen some of the "bullets" that had plastic, wooden and worse yet no cores.

With a sporting bullet either handloaded or factory there is no reason the 7.62x39 isn't an adequate deer cartridge. Remington. Federal and Winchester all sell commercial loads that hold over 1100 lbs of energy at 100 yards with 123 - 125 gr softpoint bullets. That's plenty for whitetails. If you want to get nuts Corbon sells a 150gr loading that's still hanging onto 1500 lbs at 100 with a higher BC than most .30-30 loads.



> The SKS in the past few short years has successfully left more wounded deer than most all others, combined.
> 
> That statement isn't necessarily backed by hard evidence rather than assumptions based on finds by the DNR and other hunters/property owners, and those that use/d the SKS.​


So you have no facts for a statement made as fact? You my friend should be a politician! I'm just pulling your leg, I couldn't resist that.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

Critter said:


> I want to know where you live that the DNR sat and watched a poacher take 30 shots at a deer. :lol:


I've re read my statement a few times and just can't find where I said they "sat and watched" The did how ever watch (aka witnessed), and attempted to confront (with hopes of arresting them) but as they put it, had they not hit it it was hard to arrest them for violating, knowing they could have been shooting at a buck that the dnr didn't see. 

Unfortunately there's no law as to how many rounds you can shoot at a single deer or groups of deer (during season).



Critter said:


> So you have no facts for a statement made as fact? You my friend should be a politician! I'm just pulling your leg, I couldn't resist that.



I knew somebody would come at me over that one!! 

but I figured I was safe since so many of us have witnessed deer hunters assaulting deer with an assault rifle and not making clean kills, etc.

They kicked me out of politics:yikes::help:


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Sorry I've been gone. 

Well, Basically the7.62x39 is about on par with a 30-30 in terms of power as some have noted on here. 

Putman, I also find your first comment on it particularily interesting. Mushroomed bullets did not have a place in the time of the SKS for warfare. Pretty much the entire 20th century it has been taboo to use any type of expanding or fragmenting bullet in warfare. Grenades, That is different. But apparently if you want to kill someone in battle with a rifle you have to try to do it nicely with non-expanding full metal jacket or sometimes specialty cored non-expanding bullets. In fact, early on in the early part of the 20th, there was a practice of filing off the tipps of full metal jacket rounds to expose the lead inside, making an expanding bullet with increased killing effectiveness. This was however, considered a war crime. That is why our military has to shoot full metal jacket pistol rounds for example, while cops can use hollowpoints on criminals.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

brock_gingery86 said:


> Sorry I've been gone.
> 
> Well, Basically the7.62x39 is about on par with a 30-30 in terms of power as some have noted on here.
> 
> Putman, I also find your first comment on it particularily interesting. Mushroomed bullets did not have a place in the time of the SKS for warfare. Pretty much the entire 20th century it has been taboo to use any type of expanding or fragmenting bullet in warfare. Grenades, That is different. But apparently if you want to kill someone in battle with a rifle you have to try to do it nicely with non-expanding full metal jacket or sometimes specialty cored non-expanding bullets. In fact, early on in the early part of the 20th, there was a practice of filing off the tipps of full metal jacket rounds to expose the lead inside, making an expanding bullet with increased killing effectiveness. This was however, considered a war crime. That is why our military has to shoot full metal jacket pistol rounds for example, while cops can use hollowpoints on criminals.


That is interesting but I can't dispute it since it does ring a bell. More than one author is where I get my information. But recently from law enforcement etc. and they use military examples.

That would explain the full metal jackets and the non mushrooming lead. versus law enforcement flying shrapnel deal.

I"ll have to dig into that a bit more since I do like your theory more than mine and it does a better job of adding up than my theory/s.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Putman Lake Campground said:


> That is interesting but I can't dispute it since it does ring a bell. More than one author is where I get my information. But recently from law enforcement etc. and they use military examples.
> 
> That would explain the full metal jackets and the non mushrooming lead. versus law enforcement flying shrapnel deal.
> 
> I"ll have to dig into that a bit more since I do like your theory more than mine and it does a better job of adding up than my theory/s.


 
From my own Research, I trace the deal of non-expanding bullets back to britain. It was around 1899 I think, and Britain had replaced their Martini Henry rifles with new .303 british rifles. They had a round for these called the Mark IV I believe, and it was basically a hollow-point round. Germany protested about the same time claiming that the wounds it caused were inhumane and cruel. I believe it was this that lead to international agreements and acceptance of non Expanding Full metal Jacketed lead core rounds, or steel core tipped rounds. 

Another interesting piece of history you might want to look up was the _1868 St. Petersburg Declaration _that dealt specifically with Fragmenting or explosive rounds. Basically this treaty stated that explosive progectiles weighing less than either 400 or 450 grams(I can't remember which right offhand) cannot be used in the field during times of war. Basically this prevents pretty much any military sidearm or infantry weapon has not had explosive rounds. Even in WW2, the 50 caliber in use with aircraft did not, but the 20mm cannon rounds were often described as "Explosive." Because cannon rounds have enough weight they can bypass this. Currently the US is developing a 25mm Machinegun that does use smart rounds to sense range and program airburst munitions. Given the nature of warfare today and the tactic of most ennemies to seek shelter around civilian non-combatants, I am not sure if this will be adopted though, thereby limiting it's use to special forces or restricted engagements if it is.


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## Ferd (Mar 24, 2011)

PiercedOne said:


> Had a 308 Norma for a little while, unfortunatly never got to deer hunt with it but sighting it in that thing was deadly accurate.
> 
> Basically the ballistic equilivant to a 300 win mag but due to marketing and the intro of the 300 win mag 308 has gone by the way side.


 I still use a .308 Norma Magnum. And yes, deadly accurate to 300yds with a 180 grain. Good thing I can reload them, $85/20rounds for factory loads.


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

brock_gingery86 said:


> From my own Research, I trace the deal of non-expanding bullets back to britain. It was around 1899 I think, and Britain had replaced their Martini Henry rifles with new .303 british rifles. They had a round for these called the Mark IV I believe, and it was basically a hollow-point round. Germany protested about the same time claiming that the wounds it caused were inhumane and cruel. I believe it was this that lead to international agreements and acceptance of non Expanding Full metal Jacketed lead core rounds, or steel core tipped rounds.
> 
> Another interesting piece of history you might want to look up was the _1868 St. Petersburg Declaration _that dealt specifically with Fragmenting or explosive rounds. Basically this treaty stated that explosive progectiles weighing less than either 400 or 450 grams(I can't remember which right offhand) cannot be used in the field during times of war. Basically this prevents pretty much any military sidearm or infantry weapon has not had explosive rounds. Even in WW2, the 50 caliber in use with aircraft did not, but the 20mm cannon rounds were often described as "Explosive." Because cannon rounds have enough weight they can bypass this. Currently the US is developing a 25mm Machinegun that does use smart rounds to sense range and program airburst munitions. Given the nature of warfare today and the tactic of most ennemies to seek shelter around civilian non-combatants, I am not sure if this will be adopted though, thereby limiting it's use to special forces or restricted engagements if it is.


Captain Neville Bertie-Clay was a British army officer who spent much of his time in the Indian Ordnance Department of the Indian Army. He is credited with developing the expanding bullet in 1896. The name dumdum was used because the first examples were produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal near Calcutta. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed it's use in warfare. The same basic soft point design is what we still have as a hunting round.


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

petronius said:


> Captain Neville Bertie-Clay was a British army officer who spent much of his time in the Indian Ordnance Department of the Indian Army. He is credited with developing the expanding bullet in 1896. The name dumdum was used because the first examples were produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal near Calcutta. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed it's use in warfare. The same basic soft point design is what we still have as a hunting round.


Yep I am familiar with the DUM Dum arsenal. Kinda funny how I learned about that one though. I had watched a "lethal weapon" movie, I think it was number 3, where Joe Peshi's character gets shot, and the cops are fooling with him telling him he got hit by a "Dum Dum round" and that they are 100% fatal. After seeing that at the age of 12 or so, I decided to look it up and find out about it.

However, that is only the expanding bullets as we know them today, as there were some examples prior to that. Hollow points had been made prior to this. However, they did not hold up well in heavy game animals as they tended to fagment upon expanding from being almost pure lead. They did see some limited Wartime use though I think. Thanks for the info.


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## dasuper (Sep 23, 2007)

I guess it is my turn to be taken to task for using the wrong gun to kill deer. My first deer gun was a 218 bee that worked just fine. then I moved up to the m1 carbine that we all know won't kill deer, but I didn't tell them that. Now I use my .223 and still fill my five tags per year. Just don't tell the deer these guns won't kill them and they die quite easily.


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## Putman Lake Campground (Oct 4, 2010)

dasuper said:


> I guess it is my turn to be taken to task for using the wrong gun to kill deer. My first deer gun was a 218 bee that worked just fine. then I moved up to the m1 carbine that we all know won't kill deer, but I didn't tell them that. Now I use my .223 and still fill my five tags per year. Just don't tell the deer these guns won't kill them and they die quite easily.


The question is, is how much tracking do you have to do?

how many have you lost, if any?

what grain do you use for your 223?

where do you normally shot them at?


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## Uncle Boopoo (Sep 15, 2008)

The first 6 deer I killed were all with an SKS using cheap, military ammo. I really didn't know any better because I was only a young teen and the guys I hunted with weren't exactly role models. 

That being said I never lost a deer with that gun/ammo and I was usually able to tell that I hit the animal. All of my shots were 20-60 yds so that may have had something to do with it. Three of my kills dropped in thier tracks from a high shoulder shot and the other 3 all died within 75 yds of where they were shot. Blood trails were poor (except 1) and the gun seemed low on knock down power, similar to a modern inline muzzleloader. 

I have no reason to believe that out to 100 yards, an SKS with the right ammo, is perfectly capable of putting meat in the freezer. Even in the hands of a teenager.


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## dasuper (Sep 23, 2007)

Fifty three years of deer hunting with the wrong weapon. Tracking, not far. Lost, none. .223 ,55 grain. Shot location, neck or shoulder.


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

dthur said:


> My old Grand dad did "Great" with his model 8 Remington, it was the 32 Remington round (not the 32 special) with the Browning designed recoil automatic action. The recoil operated a spring in the barrell, whithin the barrell that worked the action. He swore by that gun for U.P. Michigan deer.


 Just sold 3 of them as a package a .25 .30 and a .35 they are really uniqe rifles.


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## CampBamf (Jul 25, 2006)

Putman Lake Campground said:


> I picked mine up a few years ago when Remington did their 100th anniversary special with Maple stocks. I got the 25.06 in a maple stock (1 of 500) the 7mm-08 maple stock (1 of 500) and 35whelan walnut stock, all 7600's (pumps). (shot show specials, if I remember right for their 100th celebration, I don't remember if as a company or for the 30.06)
> 
> Rumor has it the 35whelans 7600's that remington had discontinued (built in the 90's) had problems with the breeches and the easiest answer was to discontinue it. (the breech wasn't strong enough for the magnum load).
> 
> ...


I"ve had my 35 whelen(pump) since 1994 and I'm still dropping deer in there tracks without any problems. I did have it parkerized since I'm terrible at keeping my guns looking good.! The Whelen is a nasty combonation of a big round and proven power. ( i believe its just a necked up -06??) nonetheless I love it!!


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## brock_gingery86 (Mar 15, 2011)

Yep, The 35 Whelen is a Necked up 30-06. It's a Great Cartridge.

As for the Model 8, I think the Holy Grail in that rifle is to find one of the rare 300 Savage chambered rifles. 

Putman, If you get a 444, I have a feeling you will love it. Just remember that it is a Handloader's cartridge if you want to make the most out of it. If you do though, check out a site called Marlin Owners. 

Thanks for all the posts, and God Bless Everyone!


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## anon12192013aazz (Dec 10, 2010)

I use a few oddball cartridges for deer hunting that haven't been mentioned yet.

The 7.7x57 Arisaka (Japanese) is basically a 308 Winchester, as far as performance goes, and the 6.5 Arisaka is another excellent deer cartridge, which my cousin has used to good effect. The Type 99 and Type 38 rifles are fairly ugly and crude when compared to the Mausers and older US military rifles, like the Springfield 03A3. 

My wife hunts with an 03A3 that is chambered in 30-'06, but I load it with 125gr Nosler BT's at ~2,600fps for lighter recoil. This makes it more like a 30/30 or (gasp) a hot 7.62x39! She dropped a doe with it last fall and bullet performance was excellent.

I also shoot a 7-30 Waters and 6.5JDJ, both from 14" Contender barrels. They are very accurate guns from the bench and as long as you do your part for setup in the field, they work great for putting deer down quickly.

In fact, the one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this entire thread is how important shot placement is, above all else! It doesn't matter if you're shooting a 218 Bee or 338-378, if you gut shoot a deer, you'll be doing a long tracking job that may, or may not, be successful. 

My dad tried to put a 30 Carbine bullet in a bedded buck's ear one time, at about 40 yards, with open sights. That deer jumped up and ran about 200 yards DOWNHILL. Dragging him back up is why dad never again used the little 30 for deer. He sticks with the more powerful, but still often maligned, 243 Winchester. The thing is, it's the extreme accuracy that makes up most of the difference, not the power of either round.


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