# How much does your ML drop?



## ericzerka24 (Aug 12, 2010)

Alright so I just broke down and got a new smoke stick this year. I decided to go with the TC Bone Collector. Tried shooting those new jim shockey gold sticks....GARBAGE! Couldn't even hold a patteren of 6 inches at 100yds. Long story short, ended up using 2 sticks of hodgdon pyrodex. So with 100g of powder and 245g powerbelts (they've worked great for me)
I'm dead on at 100yds. 
At 150yds it drops about 3-4 inches. 
At 200yds its dropping about 12 inches.

What are you guys getting???

I have a buddy who says he shoots the exact same powder and bullet with his new CVA and its only dropping 4 inches at 200yds. Before I get really jelous that I spent more on my TC then his CVA, I wanna see if he is really just full of doodoo.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

ericzerka24 said:


> ... So with *100g of powder and 245g powerbelts (they've worked great for me) *
> *I'm dead on at 100yds*.
> At 150yds it drops about 3-4 inches.
> At 200yds its dropping about 12 inches.
> ...


I'd question it.......... 

I just read an article where someone did some testing. It may have been for scopes and even in M-S magazine......._its still November, isn't it?_ From what I took of it, he shot pretty much thousands of rounds with many different bullets. I believe his information showed, that ZEROED AT 100yds, most drop between 9"to 12" at 200yds. Which would make your information fall right in that range.

However, different rifles, different loads and/or better bullets could do much better with somewhat less drop. But, 100grs of powder, zeroed at 100yds and only 4" of drop at 200yds, is a little iffy.....

Now, if you, "wanna see if he is really just full of doodoo", go shooting with him and better yet, shoot his rifle yourself. Then make your call :lol:


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## Cpt.Chaos (May 28, 2006)

I'm agreeing with Encore on this. Ballistics for muzzy's just do not compute for that little of drop, no matter the charge behind it. 

Now time to bash powerbelts again, they are great for punching holes in paper(haven't lost a target yet to poor blood trail!) but terminal performance on game is notorious. Spend a few bucks and get some Barnes Expander MZ's in 300gr.


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## ericzerka24 (Aug 12, 2010)

ENCORE said:


> I'd question it..........
> 
> I just read an article where someone did some testing. It may have been for scopes and even in M-S magazine......._its still November, isn't it?_ From what I took of it, he shot pretty much thousands of rounds with many different bullets. I believe his information showed, that ZEROED AT 100yds, most drop between 9"to 12" at 200yds. Which would make your information fall right in that range.
> 
> ...


Well I definitely have my doubts but I wanted to hear what a few others had to say before I tell him he's full of it. We're going on a late muzzy hunt in ohio here soon so I will get to see how it shoots.



Cpt.Chaos said:


> I'm agreeing with Encore on this. Ballistics for muzzy's just do not compute for that little of drop, no matter the charge behind it.
> 
> Now time to bash powerbelts again, they are great for punching holes in paper(haven't lost a target yet to poor blood trail!) but terminal performance on game is notorious. Spend a few bucks and get some Barnes Expander MZ's in 300gr.


My dad and I both bought our guns together but he went with the Nikon Omega scope. It has the BDC reticles and they match up almost perfectly. This means that if my buddy had this same scope, all the distances would be very different.

I knew I was gunna catch some grief for powerbelts. It's really hard to change bullets espically when they've worked so well for me. I've heard horror stories but never had a problem myself. The thing I like about them the most, no jacket to mess with like the shockwaves I first started with.


Someone was just talking about the Barnes the other day. I hunt the edge of a field so being able to shoot 200yds is crucial. I'm already dealing with a 12inch drop. How much more of a drop and I going to get if I switched to the Barnes 300g?


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## Cpt.Chaos (May 28, 2006)

You don't have to switch to 300gr if you don't want too. Barnes makes it in 250 gr as well. As far as the load you put behind it to acclomplish 200 yd shots, you would have to go to the range and shoot it...I'd suggest 100-110 gr of BH209, adjust to your needs after a 3-5 round test.


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## ericzerka24 (Aug 12, 2010)

Cpt.Chaos said:


> You don't have to switch to 300gr if you don't want too. Barnes makes it in 250 gr as well. As far as the load you put behind it to acclomplish 200 yd shots, you would have to go to the range and shoot it...I'd suggest 100-110 gr of BH209, adjust to your needs after a 3-5 round test.


I've never used BH. It just seems like too much of a hassle when I can just drop sticks of pyrodex in and get great results. I'm always open to new things, is it much of a hassle? Especially reloading in the field?


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

ericzerka24 said:


> I've never used BH. It just seems like too much of a hassle when I can just drop sticks of pyrodex in and get great results. I'm always open to new things, is it much of a hassle? Especially reloading in the field?


 Lets have a test......... I'll load with loose powder and you load with the sticks. I'm knocking of the door for 60 and if I lose, it will be in 1/100's of a second _(I doubt I'll lose)._ And I don't have to worry about which end goes into the rifle first. 

It isn't a hassle at all, it all depends on what and how you do it. It also depends on how consistent you want to be in your shooting. Is dropping a couple sticks/pellets down the barrel convient? Sure, for those that think they're getting the best out of their rifle.

If you're planning on shooting 150 to 200 yards, I highly recommend that you change your load. *Cpt. Chaos is putting you where you should be with great recommendations*. I'd go a little different and instead of using the Expanders, I'd try out the Barnes TMZ or TEZ bullets, either in 250gr or 290gr. Not that the expanders won't do the job, as I've taken many deer with them. The ballistic coefficient will be higher on the other bullets, which have my support for the longer range.

Punching paper and bullet performance when hunting is two different things. You purchased a fine rifle and are shooting pretty much outdated junk out of it. Why buy a nice rifle and shoot outdated junk out of it?

As far as the powerbelts go, one doesn't have to be a "rocket scientist" to read and understand, the outlandish amount of horror stories from so many hunters and not understand that its not the best bullet to be using. Again, punching paper is one thing, CONSISTENT performance is another when it comes to bullets. Do some people have good luck with them? Of course some do, however even a rock will harvest a deer if the placement if right.

Do the animal and yourself a favor....... change loads and bullets and PRACTICE...... PRACTICE....... PRACTICE.... especially if you're going to be trying to shoot that kind of range. Just because the rifle will do it, doesn't mean you will. Learn patience and consistency, then practice it over and over. Then.......... good luck with the shot


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

ericzerka24 said:


> Someone was just talking about the Barnes the other day. I hunt the edge of a field so being able to shoot 200yds is crucial. I'm already dealing with a 12inch drop. How much more of a drop and I going to get if I switched to the Barnes 300g?



Less...probably but not by much!! Heavier is better for long range....in most cases. Sure, those little lightweight jobs start out faster but they also slow down faster! Out past 150 yards, the 300 grain is catching up and starting to pass the lighter bullet.....think momentum. Check out the 290 grain Barnes TMZ...they are tipped and have a much better Ballistic coeffient that any powerbelt. That means they are sleeker, retain their velocity better, therefore have more energy on long range targets and shoot flatter over long range. the 290 TMZ is a tremendous long range bullet! Those PB are not an ideal long range round to be honest. 

All this assumes you sight in correctly to take advantage of the bullet trajectory.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

ericzerka24 said:


> I've never used BH. It just seems like too much of a hassle when I can just drop sticks of pyrodex in and get great results. I'm always open to new things, is it much of a hassle? Especially reloading in the field?



BH209 is so much better it's not even funny. Conveinant in the field if you use a speed loader. Measuring charges at the range or before the hunt takes, oh about 30 seconds.


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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

ericzerka24 said:


> I'm dead on at 100yds.
> At 150yds it drops about 3-4 inches.
> At 200yds its dropping about 12 inches.
> 
> I have a buddy who says he shoots the exact same powder and bullet with his new CVA and its only dropping 4 inches at 200yds.


 
Fire a rifle perfectly horizontal and simultaneously drop a bullet from the same height as the bore and both bullets will hit the ground plane at the same EXACT time. What makes a rifle shoot "flat" is velocity - simple physics - and not even a "new CVA" can break those laws.

You didn't mention what distance your friend has his ML sighted in for. If he's sighted in for 150 yards, he may only be dropping 4" at 200.


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## ericzerka24 (Aug 12, 2010)

Swamp Monster said:


> Less...probably but not by much!! Heavier is better for long range....in most cases. Sure, those little lightweight jobs start out faster but they also slow down faster! Out past 150 yards, the 300 grain is catching up and starting to pass the lighter bullet.....think momentum. Check out the 290 grain Barnes TMZ...they are tipped and have a much better Ballistic coeffient that any powerbelt. That means they are sleeker, retain their velocity better, therefore have more energy on long range targets and shoot flatter over long range. the 290 TMZ is a tremendous long range bullet! Those PB are not an ideal long range round to be honest.
> 
> All this assumes you sight in correctly to take advantage of the bullet trajectory.


I guess I didn't really look at it like that. I thought of it like 245g would be like throwing a baseball and 300g trowing a softball. Seems like the 245g (baseball) would go further. I'll definitely have to give the 290 TMZ's a shot. I'm always open for new ideas!



Quack Addict said:


> Fire a rifle perfectly horizontal and simultaneously drop a bullet from the same height as the bore and both bullets will hit the ground plane at the same EXACT time. What makes a rifle shoot "flat" is velocity - simple physics - and not even a "new CVA" can break those laws.
> 
> You didn't mention what distance your friend has his ML sighted in for. If he's sighted in for 150 yards, he may only be dropping 4" at 200.


Sorry missed that. He said he was about an inch high at 100yds and 4 inches low at 200yds. That would be a 5 inch drop Quack Addict

I really appreciate all the input from everybody! Now with the BH209, how hard do you have to seat the bullet in? Do you push down just until it stops? 
I've been wanting to get some and try it but a few people that I've mentioned it to just tell me stick with the pyrodex, its much easier.


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## thumbgoodfisherman (Dec 6, 2005)

Quack Addict said:


> Fire a rifle perfectly horizontal and simultaneously drop a bullet from the same height as the bore and both bullets will hit the ground plane at the same EXACT time. What makes a rifle shoot "flat" is velocity - simple physics - and not even a "new CVA" can break those laws.
> 
> *You didn't mention what distance your friend has his ML sighted in for. If he's sighted in for 150 yards, he may only be dropping 4" at 200*.


I was thinking the same thing!!! What everybody has said is right on the money. Most ML's want the convience of dropping pellets or sticks, but why not use something that will group a heck of lot better and clean up with ease and I'm speaking of Blackhorn this stuff is awesome. Like mikie says try it you'll like it.


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## motoman3b (Dec 28, 2006)

If you want a long range muzzleloader a 45 cal would be more suitable look into dead center bullets and they did a test on multiple bullet/sabots and their 45 cal saboted bullets claim only a 5.4" drop at 200 or something like that. I have a 45 cal CVA and it shoots alot flatter (I use the 195gr barnes) then my 50 cal omega and I've killed lots of deer at 150yd+ with the 45 cal


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

The .45 inline is all but dead. Good luck even findign a new one today. It was popular for a few months when add campaigns touted their high velocity but is dead today. Once people realized that a few hundred fps more with a much lighter bullet wasn't all that great in the world world of muzzleloading, the fad went away. With conicals, the .45 can be a great long range gun. Even with sabots it's alright but I'll take a 290 grain thumper at 200 yards everyday over a little 190 grain .40 caliber pill at that distance. Don't get me wrong, they are still a great deer killer but the performance in the field never quit matched the hype in the add campaigns. Now, stoke em' with long heavy .45 caliber conicals and the old .45 starts to shine.


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## Newcub (May 26, 2010)

The best thing about BH209 is the cleaning of your gun..You can use what ever you use to clean your high power rifles with.I use Hobbe's..Clean your breach plug the same way you did before. I shot my Triumph 45 times at the range.I licked one patch ran it threw the barrel & a dry patch.One time.Never had an accuracy problem.Broke the breech plug free between every shot.They say you have to use shotgun 209 primers.120 grains of bh 209= 150 grains of all the other stuff.Buy two pounds of it & some different sabit's go to the range & see what shoots the best.I've never used them power belts. I will be useing thompson center's cheap shot's for this year's muzzle loading season..


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## ericzerka24 (Aug 12, 2010)

Newcub said:


> The best thing about BH209 is the cleaning of your gun..You can use what ever you use to clean your high power rifles with.I use Hobbe's..Clean your breach plug the same way you did before. I shot my Triumph 45 times at the range.I licked one patch ran it threw the barrel & a dry patch.One time.Never had an accuracy problem.Broke the breech plug free between every shot.They say you have to use shotgun 209 primers.*120 grains of bh 209= 150 grains of all the other stuff*.Buy two pounds of it & some different sabit's go to the range & see what shoots the best.I've never used them power belts. I will be useing thompson center's cheap shot's for this year's muzzle loading season..


Are you saying that 120g of the bh209 would be equivalent to 3 50g sticks of pyrodex?


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

I'll add a couple of recommendations in on the BH209....... If you're thinking about serious shooting and shooting alot, I suggest that if you can find them, pick up all the 35mm film containers that you can get. Places that still develop film just throw them out when they're brought in and will give them away. They work PERFECT for your loads when on the range. I always get a charge out of watching guys with "pellets", trying to run a pipe cleaner down them and try to get them out when its raining or snowing hard and, not try to get the rest of the pellets wet :lol: With the film containers, they'll stay completely dry. Just about all the shooters that I know, use them when on a range. Just pre-measure each load and snap that cap on. DRY AS A BONE and no pipe cleaners 

Another recommendation......for cleaning your rifle after using BH209, use *Montana X-Treme, Blackhorn 209 Cleaning Solvent* which is recommended by Western Powders (BH209). I used Hoppe's #9 and it works but, *Montana X-Treme works DAY & NIGHT better*. I just received 4 more bottles from www.midwayusa and nylon composite bore brushes.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

ericzerka24 said:


> Are you saying that 120g of the bh209 would be equivalent to 3 50g sticks of pyrodex?


That's correct, so to speak. Because of the differences in burn rates and barrel pressures of different powders, *120grs by volume is the MAXIMUM charge of BH209.* Many shooters are just shooting 90grs, 100grs or 110grs and having excellent results. 

Read the information about it here: http://www.blackhorn209.com/

Although some may have told you to just stick with the pellets, which may be fine for them, why not put a just a little more effort into it and achieve excellent results. Then, go back and show them how REAL SHOOT'N is done


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## thumbgoodfisherman (Dec 6, 2005)

Encore, 

I don't what the theory is but it seems like everybody thinks more is better. I bought my omega 2 years ago did a research on this fine site and modern muzzloader and went with the blackhorn. It took some time and effort to find the right combination but the results are sure excellent. I started at 90gr then 100gr and finally 110 going back to 100gr where I had my best groups. My next door neighbor is a ML guru and I have learned alot from him. The people on here can only give so much information, but my personal learning curve came from going to the range with someone that knows his or her stuff about the ML dos and don'ts.

So keep up the good work on here cause I have learned some new tricks and some times that is pretty hard to teach to an old dog.:lol:


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## dsconnell (Aug 29, 2007)

I know ours are zeroed in at 200 yards and I can touch bullets with a bench rest at that distance and at 100 yards aim 4" low so between 100 and 200 yards I am climbing 4" but at 300 yards I drop a little bit.. Havent measured in inches, that being said I also shoot 190grains of powder with a 275 gr bullet out of a pretty special gun! Ever since we picked up the Ultimate Muzzleloader i really cant look back.. I have a Thompson Triumph I might consider selling for the right price... All camo.... Realtree AP.. Barrel and all!


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