# Asking for input on bear baiting



## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Years ago during the fall black bears commonly foraged during the day. They had to. As years passed and bear hunting became more popular so did bear baiting. It created a market for bear bait. The availability of quality bear bait made it easier to increase the number of baits we set-up.

Some of the more popular baiting areas are literally saturated with baits to the point where bears no longer need to forage during the day. They simply travel from bait to bait and have become much more nocturnal than they once were.

Some years back the NRC established a regulation limiting the number of baits an individual may maintain. Its 3 baits per person, but they left a loop-hole in the regulation allowing an individual to maintain up to 12 bait sites if they are for family, or friends, or clients.

Used to be the DNR would never establish a regulation that was nearly impossible for conservation officers to enforce. But this limit in the number of bait sites certainly does. At a recent DNR meeting in Bergland, Michigan I brought this subject up and found the DNR was greatly in favor of establishing a regulation requiring individuals to post an official ID at each bait site in order to aid in enforcement against baiting violations.

My suggestion would be to print out 3 bait site tags along with the harvest tag. The ID tags would be required to be posted at each bait site. The ID tag would contain the individuals harvest tag number. In the event someone tampered with an ID at a legal bait site it would be up to the discretion of the local C.O. to issue a free replacement ID tag.

I sure would appreciate others opinion on this issue.


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## BVW (Jul 25, 2002)

I would not be opposed to bait site tags personally..


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## SMITTY1233 (Dec 8, 2003)

Are you saying only those with a kill tag can get the three bait tags?


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Smitty, good point. Glad you brought that up....worth discussing. If you don't have a kill tag should you be baiting bears and increasing the competition among sportsmen? What's your thoughts?


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> In the event someone tampered with an ID at a legal bait site it would be up to the discretion of the local C.O. to issue a free replacement ID tag.


This doesn't sound right.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Nostromo, please help me understand what you mean by it doesn't sound right? 

The idea of leaving it up to the local C.O. to replace an ID tag that was vandalized was meant to be a way to deal with acts of hunter harassment and preventing someone from losing their ID tag. Any suggestions on how to deal with that?


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## pike man (Feb 21, 2006)

I would be 100% in favor of this new rule. It might cut down on the guys that maintain many baits illegally.


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

Same old story. 

Rich doesn't want any competition. Because of that, he is going to do what he can to have the DNR limit the competition for him. Just like his proposed guide regulations (which failed miserably by the way). 

When you can no longer keep up with the front runners, it's easiest to limit the number of people in the race. 

Adapt! Everyone else did and seems to be able to find a bear just fine.


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## BVW (Jul 25, 2002)

On Public land it don't see an issue with an ID tag of some sort.. As long is it's kept simple. 
The law in Maine: "B_. The stand, blind or bait area is plainly labeled with a 2-inch-by-4-inch tag with the name and address of the baiter;"_
_ 
_


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

What would be wrong with the DNR issuing a participation tag with 3 bait site tags. Those participation tags would good for preseason and in season baiting, training or hunting activities. The tags could be free or the same price as a bear tag. No tag no participation, simple and enforceable.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Luv2hunteup said:


> What would be wrong with the DNR issuing a participation tag with 3 bait site tags. Those participation tags would good for preseason and in season baiting, training or hunting activities. The tags could be free or the same price as a bear tag. No tag no participation, simple and enforceable.


I agree.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Nostromo, please help me understand what you mean by it doesn't sound right?
> 
> The idea of leaving it up to the local C.O. to replace an ID tag that was vandalized was meant to be a way to deal with acts of hunter harassment and preventing someone from losing their ID tag. Any suggestions on how to deal with that?


The idea of registering bait sites is good. I'd think giving a hunter 3 numbers and having him label his sites in an approved fashion would be the way to go. If his label goes missing he can just make another. If a CO approaches him he can show the CO his matching number and he or she is good to go. No muss no fuss.

If he is sitting at anothers bait site then he'll need the number from the other hunter. Or I suppose a guide if he is using one.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Thanks Nostromo. Good idea. How about using the individuals bear tag number
printed out on 3 tags so there is no way to forging tags? C.O.'s can readily identify the individual via the license number.

Someone hunting at a bait with someone else's bait site ID would need to be ironed out as Michigan does not allow exclusive use on public land.


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## SMITTY1233 (Dec 8, 2003)

If you have to possess a kill tag to be able to get the baiting permit you'd be cutting out most guides who rarely draw but help the general hunting public fill their tags. I am opposed to that. I'm not a guide but I've helped people kill their bears the last two years just because I enjoy it. I enjoy the camaraderie and the hunt with other outdoorsmen or women. If you want to have to clearly identify your bait sites I really have no issue with that. Be simple to put an identification piece of information around the site be even easier if you could use a barrel and have to include your name, address and phone number on it like a tree stand on public ground. Just a thought huh? That way if its not removed by a certain chosen date they can regulate it.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Smitty, thanks for your post....I should have better explained. If each individual drawing a kill tag were issued bait site ID tags they could provide them to the guide when they book the hunt. The guide would use the clients tags when setting up. Not hampering the guides as they are only legally allowed to maintain 12 bait sites under current regulations.


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

I have no issue identifying my bait stations, and did so even though I didn't have to in 2016. But this seems like a bit of over kill. Why not just post your License # at the bait, I wrote mine with a paint pen on the bait barrels. For those that can't use barrels, just post your license # (I would laminate it to make it weather proof), and hang it from a near by tree. Printing forms, and getting them to guides all seems a bit excessive for something so simple. A guide could have his ID# on his 12 baits under current laws.

I don't think this should be dependent on getting a kill tag, a lot of hound guys don't get kill tags every year, but some start their dogs off their own baits. I don't think they should have to go buy a participation license just to train their hounds either, it's expensive enough owning/training dogs. Participation licenses should only be required for participating in a hunt, not just training dogs. 

While I have no issue with this, I'm not sure how much it will cut down on the number of baits in the woods. Last year, I only had 2 baits going, and that was plenty of work and expense. For the people that are putting out more than their 3, all I can say is that violators will continue to violate.


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

Biggbear - We only have to buy the participation tag if we are going to run our dogs or hunt during kill season. We don't have to buy it to train dogs from July - September. 

Once kill season starts, we have to buy the participation license (same price as a bear tag) every year. I usually buy mine at the beginning of training season just to be sure I have it.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Good information on the participation license. Adding to it, individuals who do not have a dog in the hunt are allowed tag along on the hunt without having a participation tag.


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Good information on the participation license. Adding to it, individuals who do not have a dog in the hunt are allowed tag along on the hunt without having a participation tag.


Lots of gray area there, I'd be careful with that one. I was told by a CO that his interpretation of "participating in the hunt" meant anything from talking on the radio, to tracking dogs on a GPS, to leading a dog out of the woods (even if you don't own it).

Better to err on the side of caution. 

Getting off topic here, sorry for the derailment.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Scott, can you send me the C.O.'s name in a private message and I will see to it he gets the regulation change explained to him before he causes some innocent sportsmen a lot of trouble.

Taken from page 12 of the 2016 Michigan Black Bear Digest:

An individual accompanying a licensed bear hunter on a bear hunt (without a bear hunting license), and in possession of a firearm, crossbow, bow and arrow, must have a no-kill-tag bear license. The owner of any dog chasing or locating bear on a hunt (without a bear hunting license) must also have a no-kill-tag bear license.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

srconnell22 said:


> Same old story.
> 
> Rich doesn't want any competition. Because of that, he is going to do what he can to have the DNR limit the competition for him. Just like his proposed guide regulations (which failed miserably by the way).
> 
> ...


SR, I was guiding bear hunters before you were born. I am 73 years old now and I still hunt in what is known as the most rugged terrain in Michigan. I usually hunt 2 or 3 dogs. I do not hunt in a large group with bear baits strung out over several regions to ensure I get a bear race every day. And, I have harvested more black bear in my lifetime than most folks in Michigan. I do not feel a need to prove anything. I don't fault folks who enjoy hunting in the big dog crews. I still do from time to time, too. I just enjoy the challenge I get out of my old obsolete type of hunting provides.

I used to be a management Facilitator at Copper Range Company in White Pine, Mi.
Part of my job was facilitating new ideas and generating discussion on the pros and cons. That's what I was trying to do with my post. No need to insult anyone who has an opposing viewpoint. One thing I learned from my job, people resort to hollering and hurling insults...was they do it because they are losing and cannot debate the issue without exposing their frustration.


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

srconnell22 said:


> Biggbear - We only have to buy the participation tag if we are going to run our dogs or hunt during kill season. We don't have to buy it to train dogs from July - September.
> 
> Once kill season starts, we have to buy the participation license (same price as a bear tag) every year. I usually buy mine at the beginning of training season just to be sure I have it.


Scott- I had no clue you guys had to have a participation license during kill season, doesn't seem quite fair to me. If no one in the group has a kill tag, you're not participating in "hunting" from my perspective. I guess that's what I thought the license covered, participating in a hunt. Thanks for the info, learn something every day.


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

Biggbear said:


> Scott- I had no clue you guys had to have a participation license during kill season, doesn't seem quite fair to me. If no one in the group has a kill tag, you're not participating in "hunting" from my perspective. I guess that's what I thought the license covered, participating in a hunt. Thanks for the info, learn something every day.


Just another of the hundreds of expenses that go along with having bear dogs!


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> SR, I was guiding bear hunters before you were born. I am 73 years old now and I still hunt in what is known as the most rugged terrain in Michigan. I usually hunt 2 or 3 dogs. I do not hunt in a large group with bear baits strung out over several regions to ensure I get a bear race every day. And, I have harvested more black bear in my lifetime than most folks in Michigan. I do not feel a need to prove anything. I don't fault folks who enjoy hunting in the big dog crews. I still do from time to time, too. I just enjoy the challenge I get out of my old obsolete type of hunting provides.
> 
> I used to be a management Facilitator at Copper Range Company in White Pine, Mi.
> Part of my job was facilitating new ideas and generating discussion on the pros and cons. That's what I was trying to do with my post. No need to insult anyone who has an opposing viewpoint. One thing I learned from my job, people resort to hollering and hurling insults...was they do it because they are losing and cannot debate the issue without exposing their frustration.


Not losing anything. You and Doug Mummert are the exact same person. You feel the need to restrict everyone else as much as possible that don't go along with your way of hunting. You try to restrict other people and how they can hunt which will allow you to be able to keep up. I get it... I didn't complain when tests were graded on a curve in school. It's the same concept. 

Just because other people in your area are finding, and catching bear, while you aren't, doesn't mean they are doing it illegally. It means they are putting more effort into it than you are. 

I don't mind or want to change how you hound hunt. I don't think you should be able to change or restrict how myself or anyone else does. Hound hunters especially stand on very thin ice. They don't need someone like you trying to chip the ice out from under any of them that don't hunt the way you do. Houndsmen as a group are strong, but have a ton of outside forces doing everything they can to end them. They don't need someone on the inside doing it as well. 

I don't hunt in a large dog crew with baits strung along for miles either. I get out and find bear. If I don't find them somewhere, I don't blame everyone else and ask the DNR to change the guidelines to make it easier on me. I go somewhere else, and find a bear. 

Food for thought.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Guess I hit a nerve. Obviously, you are opposed to identification on bait sites. That puts you in the minority based on the responses so far.

Can you explain to me how a regulation requiring identification at baits sites would have a negative impact on folks who bait bears....unless they are violating the three bait sites per person regulation?


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## GuppyII (Sep 14, 2008)

I'd love to see ID on bait sites.. Deer too while your at it. The amount of deer and bear baits by our camp is amazing. Lots of locals placing baits off the road so they can cruise them from their trucks.


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## Winterover (Jan 22, 2001)

Sounds to me like more micro-managing, over-regulation that the DNR doesn't have the manpower to enforce. There is currently a deer bait ban in the TB area, and that area still has too much baiting going on. The DNR doesn't have the manpower to enforce this, which affects the health of the deer herd by transfer of disease. They sure are not going to throw valuable manpower into enforcing three bait piles per hunter just so the bears don't get too fat.
I think the overbaiting (over 3 or over 12) is just something that is done by the minority. I feel a lot of the problem, or appearance of a problem is from the guides, who put all their baits in one small area so their hunters are all hunting the same couple bears. I know of at least two fairly popular (by name anyways) guides who do this. I know the unscrupulous guides who violate the bait site limit, or do other not kosher things will eventually be shut out of business by spread of bad stories.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Winterover, thanks for your post. Thought I should mention, several weeks ago I attended a DNR meeting in Bergland hosted by John Depew bear biologist from the Baraga Field Office. NRC Chairman Matonich was there, too. Our local CO mentioned an enforcement problem with bear baits. The subject of ID's at bait sites came up in the discussion and got a lot of support from them. Around here, both CO's and Forest Service Law Enforcement Officers dedicate a lot of time on bear bait enforcement. The ID's would make their job a lot easier. 

I sure agree with you about the average sportsman not being the problem. Its the guides because they are under pressure to produce for their customers. The worse the bear activity at the baits....the more desperate they get.


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## Blue Plague (Jun 8, 2016)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Winterover, thanks for your post. Thought I should mention, several weeks ago I attended a DNR meeting in Bergland hosted by John Depew bear biologist from the Baraga Field Office. NRC Chairman Matonich was there, too. Our local CO mentioned an enforcement problem with bear baits. The subject of ID's at bait sites came up in the discussion and got a lot of support from them. Around here, both CO's and Forest Service Law Enforcement Officers dedicate a lot of time on bear bait enforcement. The ID's would make their job a lot easier.
> 
> I sure agree with you about the average sportsman not being the problem. Its the guides because they are under pressure to produce for their customers. The worse the bear activity at the baits....the more desperate they get.


Not all guides are the same so I really hate to see always bashing on guides u yourself said that u guided we're you this way I'm guessing probably not if bear activity slows down you just have to hunt harder


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Plague, I agree all guides are not violators.


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## Winterover (Jan 22, 2001)

Rooster,
Thanks for the reply with the updated info. Just curious if they said whether hound or baited guides tended to violate more. I bait hunt the Bergland area but have no issues with hound hunters, have had some good conversations with them. 

I still think the hunters will help weed out the questionable guides as most hunters don't like to be put in possible illegal situations & the ones that are or do, will eventually get caught and tell their story. I have used 4 different guides in the Bergland unit and have switched twice because of questionable practices. 

The first one my parents used for years (I was a late bear hunter bloomer). When I went for my first hunt, the father was turning the business over to his son. When we went in to put up my stand, there were only about three sets of quad tracks going in from baiting for the whole month. We never saw a bear and with the questionable baiting we found another guide. We later heard he was baiting every half mile down a road so his hunters were all hunting the same bears(s).

The second one we used was a fantastic guide, he cared so much about being legal that he even made sure his hunters had their names on their stands. This is the guide I got my first bear with, and who my mom got her bear with. The next time we drew the first period we found out he had died of a heart attack which leads us to guide #3.

#3 was a scramble to find and was a recommendation of a friend. The guide hunted private land. Dad got his bear the first night, after the third night the guide said he had to go back to his everyday job and we were on our own the rest of the week which leads us to #4

#4 is registered with the USFS as well as the DNR. He runs his alloted 12 baits. When he has someone help him he makes sure they stick to the letter of the law when it comes to both DNR and USFS rules and regulations. We have hunted with him twice now and are very happy. (he also will not bait with anything that he would not eat himself so you are not getting a bunch of garbage bait out there.

W/O


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Winterover, really enjoyed your post. Good chance you and I have crossed trails before. I live in the Bergland BMU and have hunted here 44 years this will be the 45th. Interesting question whether hound hunters, or commercial baiters exceed the legal number of baits the most.

In my opinion any dog hunter/guide who only has one helper and just hunts his own dogs is the real deal. Most of these guys claiming to be bear guides using dogs need to hunt where there's a good road system and have a big crew. With the big crew they can legally maintain a huge number of baits.

Far as I know there are not many large commercial baiting operations here any more. Not enough bears to support their operations these days.

What is being overlooked with this whole guide issue is....they operate a legal small business. Currently its strictly a cash business and the lack of regulations, or any kind of enforcement...other than free DNR permits...guiding businesses easily operate under the radar and can avoid state and federal regulations all other small businesses in Michigan are subject to. Only exception to this is the small number of guides who acquire a Special Use Permit of Outfitter/Guides from the forest service and are professional about it. 

MDNR allows guides to add employees onto their free state land use permit.
They no longer list employee names added onto the list of state land use permit holders. So, there is no record. Its illegal not to report income of 
employees. And, if they claim they are not employees, but instead are either sub-contractors, or LLC's its still illegal if the revenue is not reported to the state and federal. In some cases they may even be legally required to pay workman's comp insurance...and in most cases FICA and Medicare. The way MDNR manages (or doesn't) makes it easy to committee tax fraud. 

I don't blame the guides, I blame the level of corruption at the state level that has turned a blind eye to this for decades. 

The bottom line with all of this....I would have never gotten into this issue if it had not had such a negative impact on bear numbers in this immediate area.
Even then if MDNR had made an effort to manage guiding it could have fit in just fine.

If we had the bear numbers we had up until about 2004 you would have been able to DIY hunt with great success and would not have needed to weed through guides to find a quality operation. Damn shame MDNR never lifted a finger to have some sort of consumer protection for clients.

Blue Plague, sorry for bringing up this issue again, but I felt Winterover's post deserved a response.


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## Blue Plague (Jun 8, 2016)

No problem but usually the expenses overcome the profits every year there's no money to really be made guiding just prevent from all expenses coming out of pocket


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Plague, with your set-up I can certainly understand the lack of profit, but unfortunately not all guiding operations are small scale like yours.

I sure don't have a problem with local folks making a little money on the side if they are ethical and provide a quality service. 

I do have a problem with the DNR violating their own state land use rules waiving the state land use permit fee and insurance requirement. State land use rules state...if the activity has a negative impact on the resource and a minimal impact on other users the activity requires MDNR oversight. The DNR has acknowledged in writing guiding requires oversight. Therefore, the language verifies they are in violation of their own state land use rules and have been going back as far as at least 2010 when they began issuing free permits to anyone claiming to be a guide.


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## Fool'em (Sep 29, 2016)

I guess I don't see it as that big of a problem currently
It seems like requiring a bait be tagged is just another reg in an already overly regulated world. It's another one of those little things that will end up costing someone money cause they didn't post it exactly per the reg
A tree stand on public land already has to have the owners information on it. Even my climber is supposed to be marked

Where I have been hunting I see almost zero other bear hunters let alone a bait behind every tree 

Just my 2cents and really I just don't like more regulations just cause there are a couple bad apples out there


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## Joel/AK (Jan 12, 2013)

In AK, we had to register our bait stations. No big deal. We go to fish and game, and they give you a placard that has to be within eyesight of the station. You put your license #on it. Each license is limited to a couple stations. Also on the placard is a spot to write each individual license # of hunters to hunt over that bait. If caught hunting over someone else station and your license isnt on it, troopers take that very seriously.

Another cool thing they do is each regional F &G office has a map of there region. They ask ( not enforced) that you put a pin on the map on the location of your station ( no ID on the pin, used as a reference). Kinda handy for the fact if I want to try a new area, and I see 20 pins, it may make me re think the plan of attack.

It's not a perfect set up since if someone is gonna break the law they will anyway but overall it works.


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## cotote wacker (Jun 12, 2012)

Joel/AK said:


> In AK, we had to register our bait stations. No big deal. We go to fish and game, and they give you a placard that has to be within eyesight of the station. You put your license #on it. Each license is limited to a couple stations. Also on the placard is a spot to write each individual license # of hunters to hunt over that bait. If caught hunting over someone else station and your license isnt on it, troopers take that very seriously.
> 
> Another cool thing they do is each regional F &G office has a map of there region. They ask ( not enforced) that you put a pin on the map on the location of your station ( no ID on the pin, used as a reference). Kinda handy for the fact if I want to try a new area, and I see 20 pins, it may make me re think the plan of attack.
> 
> It's not a perfect set up since if someone is gonna break the law they will anyway but overall it works.


I like the idea...only problem in Alaska you don't have Bear hound hunters...there will be a few in Michigan look at the map and run hounds off your bait or the very least on a road close to a bait....

If baits are to be labeled with owner then a steel or plastic barrel should be legal...MDNR will know who's it is and that they will be removing it at the end of the season...

I have several hundred acres in the Eastern UP....first legal day of baiting barrels are filled even if we don't have a tag and are kept filled until they are no longer being hit...I like looking at trail camera pictures or even sitting at a bait to watch...

On my private property why should I need to put my name on a bait or even during hunting season need to buy a Participant Tag...


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## Joel/AK (Jan 12, 2013)

Yeah, never dealt with bear hounds and I can about imagine the havoc they can do around a station. I wouldn't want it.

As for private property, I also agree. You pay taxes on it, it's yours to do with as you please. Don't regulate it like public land.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Joel, 
I understand the assumption you make about hounds causing "havoc" around a bait site. But its just an assumption. Hound hunters bait as much as folks who hunt over bait. Anyone with experience baiting is well aware of the time and expense. And if hunting hounds off a bait site
had a serious negative hound hunters would only get to use an active bait once. And that's not how it works. Baits that are hunted off with hounds remain active through most of the hunting season unless someone kills the bear, or the bear dens early. 

Regarding the question of why would there be a need to ID bait sites....that's because it fairly common for folks to trespass on the larger tracts of private land. The ID at baits sites gives CO's a better chance of enforcing.


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## Joel/AK (Jan 12, 2013)

If hound hunting is your thing, knock yourself out. It's a legal method.

I don't even like sitting over bait for bears. In 18years at our bear camp, we never once sat over the bait. That's my thing.

Each to there own.


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