# Betsie Salmon Fly Fishing



## BigAl

I am trying to learn Salmon fly fishing. Talked to the guys at local Orvis store and watched tons of YouTube videos. Finally, last Saturday went to Betsie River to try. I managed to land 3 fish. Two went back to the river and one was a keeper. Last fish also snapped in half my new 10 St Croix 8wt. Imperial rod. Do you think that 8wt is not big enough to fight 20 -25 lb salmon? Should I exchange it for 9 or 10 wt. The reason I bought 8wt - it was only 10 long rod. 9 and 10 were 9. Mine was 4 pieces. 9 and 10 available in 2. Do you think that 2 piece rod would be stronger?

I was using floating line and single egg fly with split shot ~ two yards above the fly. Later some guy started to fish next to me. In about 30 min he landed 3 fish all legally. I asked about his rod and set up. He was using his 3 years old $59.99 Ugly Stick fly rod (I already ordered mine). He used a floating on a 2-way swivel small weight and had 2 flys on his leader. The first one was huge black fly with some blue and at the end he had a single egg fly. Unfortunately, I didnt ask about line he was using (floating/sinking as well as leader type). If someone familiar with this setup please help.
Thanks, Alex


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## Jayvelaz1130

I know a few guys that run medium heavy spinning rods converted over to fly rods.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## ds541

I use a 9 wt for salmon, but an 8wt should do the job if you take your time. Question: when your fly rod "snapped in half" were you grabbing the fly rod any place besides the handle? Fly rods are not designed to be grabbed while fighting a fish. the ugly stick may be strong but they are heavy. Also for how you want to fish you may want to change to a shooting line.


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## ausable_steelhead

An 8wt is plenty for the small kings we have anymore. You're not seeing "20-25lb" salmon like you think. Most are under 15lbs, and people tend to over estimate their size. Especially when new to the sport...


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## GobyOneGnoby

Your tippet should always break before your rod. Assuming you didn't highstick the rod or misuse it (rod behind your head, hand on blank), I'd say bump up the rod or drop down the tippet.


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## BigAl

Thank you for the tips. I do have a habit to keep the hand on the blank when fighting a fish. I am not certain if that was happened in this case as I was so excited fighting the fish. Probably I did it. 

What is a shooting line? I checked Orvis website and was not able to find one.


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## Jfish

BigAl said:


> Thank you for the tips. I do have a habit to keep the hand on the blank when fighting a fish. I am not certain if that was happened in this case as I was so excited fighting the fish. Probably I did it.
> 
> What is a shooting line? I checked Orvis website and was not able to find one.


A shooting line is just mono. Most guys like to run amnesia. It's a brand. It's just easy to see. You replace the fly line with it. Using flies and bottom bouncing in the holes is a flossing technique. Some actually believe that the fish are biting their little egg patterns and wooly buggers in the holes.

Think about this. You cast across or down and across. Then your shot hits the bottom. As you drift downstream you feel yours shot tick the bottom. The fly is behind your shot and you pull your line toward you. Then lift up and cast again. All the while the salmon is facing the current. The split shot on the bottom goes on the right side of him and your fly is coming from the left. The line goes in his open mouth and here comes the fly...right in the mouth. You feel your line stop, set the hook and fish on...LEGALLY.

It works great with a weighted fly on the end of your line, a non weighted fly above that, then split shot above that. That's what the guy next to you was doing.

Do what you will and have fun. Flossing is a technique for salmon when they don't bite. Just try not to be ignorant like the rest of the guys on the river that actually believe in their mind that salmon are actually biting the 'bugs' on their rods.


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## FishKilla419

If your Chuck and ducking I would run a straight shooting line or better yet zip line. Stuff is awesome for drift fishing.

Sent from my S5


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## BigAl

Thank you fly fishing gurus. Two more questions and I think I will be ready for my next trip to Betsie.
1.	Should I use 2 or 4 ps. fly rod for salmon fishing? I have an impression that 2 ps. should be stronger, right?
2.	Should I use large arbor real for salmon or it doesn't make any difference?


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## Fishnaked2206

Look into the new Rio GripShooter. Just picked some up a couple weeks ago and it's been awesome. It's 29.99 at cabelas if I remember right.


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## Jfish

BigAl said:


> Thank you fly fishing gurus. Two more questions and I think I will be ready for my next trip to Betsie.
> 1. Should I use 2 or 4 ps. fly rod for salmon fishing? I have an impression that 2 ps. should be stronger, right?
> 2. Should I use large arbor real for salmon or it doesn't make any difference?


I doubt that a 2pc or 4pc makes any difference at all. Just get one that has enough back bone. Probably a 'tip flex' is a stiffer action. Don't grab the blank when a fish is on!!!!!

If you throw the mono on there it's going to take a lot less space than fly line so you could get away with a 2". Just have something that has a good drag system and won't explode when you snag into a big king.

Also remember that flossers are just one step above blatant treble hook snaggers. They usually have nicer equipment and nicer vehicles and nicer clothing. It's still snagging and they are still snaggers.


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## BrookTrout2

Ok. I don't want to get into a debate on snagging. But, to say that a salmon won't bite a fly is simply not true. Yes, most of the time they won't intentionally take a fly but there have been MANY times when I've hooked salmon that bit the fly intentionally. I have had many, many salmon with flys deep into their mouth. 

That being said I now prefer to catch them using crank baits and skein in the dark water or down stream in the lower river where they usually have more fight in them. Any fish on beds is just not as fun to catch in my opinion. 

I've had a 9 foot 8 wt St. Croix for over 15 years and landed many salmon on it. It's a two piece rod. Excellent rod for salmon and steelhead.


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## Jfish

BrookTrout2 said:


> Ok. I don't want to get into a debate on snagging. But, to say that a salmon won't bite a fly is simply not true. Yes, most of the time they won't intentionally take a fly but there have been MANY times when I've hooked salmon that bit the fly intentionally. I have had many, many salmon with flys deep into their mouth.
> 
> That being said I now prefer to catch them using crank baits and skein in the dark water or down stream in the lower river where they usually have more fight in them. Any fish on beds is just not as fun to catch in my opinion.
> 
> I've had a 9 foot 8 wt St. Croix for over 15 years and landed many salmon on it. It's a two piece rod. Excellent rod for salmon and steelhead.


It doesn't have to be a debate. It's flossing every time whether you want to believe it or not. Downstream current = flies downstream deep or not deep in a salmon's mouth. It's snagging and they don't eat bugs.


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## FishKilla419

Jfish said:


> It doesn't have to be a debate. It's flossing every time whether you want to believe it or not. Downstream current = flies downstream deep or not deep in a salmon's mouth. It's snagging and they don't eat bugs.


So the gnarly male I watched Chase my steamer down for 6' before smashing it didn't bite. Or is a streamer not a bug. I'm hard core bobber & hardware but your post is little off. And shooting line is not mono. Amnesia might be. True shooting line is a fly line with a straight taper. Much easier and less tangle free than amnesia.
I mean I'm right there with ya on the anti flossing thing. But this guy is new to the sport.
To the original poster. If you wish to truly "fly fish". Look into sinking lines, sink tips and swinging flies.

Sent from my S5


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## Jfish

FishKilla419 said:


> So the gnarly male I watched Chase my steamer down for 6' before smashing it didn't bite. Or is a streamer not a bug. I'm hard core bobber & hardware but your post is little off. And shooting line is not mono. Amnesia might be. True shooting line is a fly line with a straight taper. Much easier and less tangle free than amnesia.
> I mean I'm right there with ya on the anti flossing thing. But this guy is new to the sport.
> To the original poster. If you wish to truly "fly fish". Look into sinking lines, sink tips and swinging flies.
> 
> Sent from my S5


I should've clarified. Bottom bouncing using the technique described above is flossing. Ripping streamers is entirely different.


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## GuppyII

Jfish said:


> It doesn't have to be a debate. It's flossing every time whether you want to believe it or not. Downstream current = flies downstream deep or not deep in a salmon's mouth. It's snagging and they don't eat bugs.


It's also legal if the fish is hooked in the mouth. Get off your high horse, this topic is just beat to death. SFW!


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## cwa001

We fished the betsie two weeks ago using trout beads and indicators running 7 wt rods and reals. Running floating line or sink tip line is the only way to actually fly fish. If you are going to run shooting line you might as well just get a spin cast rod and reel combo. try pinning trout beads under and indicator rig and you will fall in love with fly fishing. No other way to fish in my opinion.


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## Jfish

GuppyII said:


> It's also legal if the fish is hooked in the mouth. Get off your high horse, this topic is just beat to death. SFW!


High horse...what dude? Are you a flosser and want to defend "legal" snaggers? The guys putting yarn on their trebles are also fishing legal and I'm sure they get the fish in the mouth sometimes. 

The guy makes a post about how to not break a rod when trying to snag a fish in the mouth. Maybe all the help with helping someone snag fish in the mouth has been beat to death?


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## GuppyII

Yup, I Floss once sometimes twice a day. .. no, I don't fish that way, it is non enforceable, they can only write to for a snagging action. He was asking for help and you started blaming him for flossing! It is not illegal if the fish is caught in the mouth... sorry, that's how the system works and no matter how much you degrade people who do it, it is not going to change in the near future. These threads pop up and some of you are worse than the old lady's on the deer regulations forum.


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## Jfish

GuppyII said:


> Yup, I Floss once sometimes twice a day. .. no, I don't fish that way, it is non enforceable, they can only write to for a snagging action. He was asking for help and you started blaming him for flossing! It is not illegal if the fish is caught in the mouth... sorry, that's how the system works and no matter how much you degrade people who do it, it is not going to change in the near future. These threads pop up and some of you are worse than the old lady's on the deer regulations forum.


I get it if you get upset. It is a way of getting around the system rules. I blamed for flossing because that's what it is...there's also no way of getting around that.

I see that it's not going to change but if it's put in perspective for what it is maybe he won't want to jump on the bandwagon. It's laughable watching people floss that think salmon are biting.


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## Jfish

dinoday said:


>


If you read some of the replies on this thread some guys on here are actually wanting to understand what flossing is and seem appreciative of the way that this thread has gone. Just think about how many lurkers may actually be learning from it as well.

Don't be a dinosaur and get up on the times dinosaur day...jeez


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## dinoday

Don't like my response so now make play's on a screen name? 
I've been in the site for a decade and fishing these rivers mostly likely longer than you've been alive.
There isn't many salmon returning to the rivers of central Ohio.

You argued the responce from TSS caddis , another long time and well respected member, who I also know to be one of the most ethical guys around.

Your point is taken..I understand very well what works and what is legal but your condesending attitude towards anyone with a difference of opinion than your is annoying.
I've seen you in multiple threads calling anyone not floating under a bobber a snagger, flosser or laughable.



I'm sure the thread will get locked and I'm ok with that.


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## Jfish

dinoday said:


> Don't like my response so now make play's on a screen name?
> I've been in the site for a decade and fishing these rivers mostly likely longer than you've been alive.
> There isn't many salmon returning to the rivers of central Ohio.
> 
> You argued the responce from TSS caddis , another long time and well respected member, who I also know to be one of the most ethical guys around.
> 
> Your point is taken..I understand very well what works and what is legal but your condesending attitude towards anyone with a difference of opinion than your is annoying.
> I've seen you in multiple threads calling anyone not floating under a bobber a snagger, flosser or laughable.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure the thread will get locked and I'm ok with that.


I used to work with a guy who would give people 'crap' at work. Whenever we would give him crap he couldn't take it. Sound familiar? Does it matter how long you've been on this site? Surely it has nothing to with anything.

Have you given ANY useful information to the original poster? No you have not. Only made comments about how this thread has been talked about before. So if this thread gets locked due to my retaliation toward your not contributing and argumentative comments and memes then so be it.

If you look at my comments I actually gave helpful advice on what to use. I went further to explain how and why that method of 'fishing' catches fish. You didn't like that because you've heard it before.


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## dinoday

BigAl got good responces and I'm sure he appreciates those.
I can "take" lots...look at who is argumentative.

From you...

Yeah you can use spawn bags just like flies duh....

That's flossing hate to burst your bubble

Every responce you had had some good information and some name calling or digs at someone.

Like I said..you don't like a difference of opinion...the smartest guy in the room never does.


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## BigAl

Thank you guys for valuable tips. At the same time, I am feeling sorry for some of you who got offended or called names. I will contact moderator and will ask to close my post. It certainly went south and not where I wanted it to go. I will be more careful next time and will try not to hurt anyones feelings and/or believes. Alex


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## stockrex

BigAl said:


> I am trying to learn Salmon fly fishing. Talked to the guys at local Orvis store and watched tons of YouTube videos. Finally, last Saturday went to Betsie River to try. I managed to land 3 fish. Two went back to the river and one was a keeper. Last fish also snapped in half my new 10 St Croix 8wt. Imperial rod. Do you think that 8wt is not big enough to fight 20 -25 lb salmon? Should I exchange it for 9 or 10 wt. The reason I bought 8wt - it was only 10 long rod. 9 and 10 were 9. Mine was 4 pieces. 9 and 10 available in 2. Do you think that 2 piece rod would be stronger?
> 
> I was using floating line and single egg fly with split shot ~ two yards above the fly. Later some guy started to fish next to me. In about 30 min he landed 3 fish all legally. I asked about his rod and set up. He was using his 3 years old $59.99 Ugly Stick fly rod (I already ordered mine). He used a floating on a 2-way swivel small weight and had 2 flys on his leader. The first one was huge black fly with some blue and at the end he had a single egg fly. Unfortunately, I didnt ask about line he was using (floating/sinking as well as leader type). If someone familiar with this setup please help.
> Thanks, Alex


Op, did the guy have a cambak backpack?


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## BigAl

I dont know if he did or not, just didnt pay attention to such details. I tried to learn from the guy. Looks like he knew what he was doing. All his fish were off the water in 3 min and he literally walk the fish off the river. Quite unique compare to everyone else chasing the salmon downstream with nets.


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## stockrex

BigAl said:


> I dont know if he did or not, just didnt pay attention to such details. I tried to learn from the guy. Looks like he knew what he was doing. All his fish were off the water in 3 min and he literally walk the fish off the river. Quite unique compare to everyone else chasing the salmon downstream with nets.


I hear you, I walked up and down the stream and educated myself of lure and presentation.

I don't carry net myself for river fishing, I beach the fish and pick it up and put it on the stringer.

yeah, I think I watch a helpful fellow fisherman knock his fish off trying to net it for him. we all need to read netting 101 post on the pier forum ;-)


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## rcleofly

It's official! If you Salmon fish rivers your a snagger. Lol.

Listen all methods that you guys are talking about are good ways to catch fish. They all work. I've done at one time or another all of them. I'm no genius but I'm definitely smart enough to figure out how to snag with all methods. 

This argument is so very ignorant. I'm sure every guy who has posted on this wether you believe it or not has snagged a salmon. It happens. 20+ 15lbs kings in a 4' wide 9' long 7' deep hole with a line running threw it. Do the math, it's very basic. 

Some guys snag, some guys try hard to be legit. Honestly who cares. 

SHUT UP AND FISH go have fun. Pick up your trash. Teach a buddy or a child to fish. Enjoy the beauty of the area. Go home with a smile. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing. Life is to short. 

I'd be out on the river right now but my wife won't let me fish 24/7, she is mean. Lol 

Come on let's end this for good. Good luck to all who get out on the water this weekend.


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## rcleofly

Oh yeah, and welcome to the sport bigAll hope you the best. Remember what I said. Just enjoy yourself. That is all that truly matters.


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## GuppyII

rcleofly said:


> It's official! If you Salmon fish rivers your a snagger. Lol.
> 
> Listen all methods that you guys are talking about are good ways to catch fish. They all work. I've done at one time or another all of them. I'm no genius but I'm definitely smart enough to figure out how to snag with all methods.
> 
> This argument is so very ignorant. I'm sure every guy who has posted on this wether you believe it or not has snagged a salmon. It happens. 20+ 15lbs kings in a 4' wide 9' long 7' deep hole with a line running threw it. Do the math, it's very basic.
> 
> Some guys snag, some guys try hard to be legit. Honestly who cares.
> 
> SHUT UP AND FISH go have fun. Pick up your trash. Teach a buddy or a child to fish. Enjoy the beauty of the area. Go home with a smile. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing. Life is to short.
> 
> I'd be out on the river right now but my wife won't let me fish 24/7, she is mean. Lol
> 
> Come on let's end this for good. Good luck to all who get out on the water this weekend.


^^^ yeah that! And welcome to the wonderful world of combat fishing BigAl, a good way to learn is to take a guided trip someday, you will learn a lot with the right person on all aspects of the sport.


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## OldBuck

Well said, rcleofly!


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## fishctchr

What it really comes down to is you can fish any legal method you want as long as you abide by the gear and catch regulations for the water you are fishing in. If you happen to snag a fish and land it, you must put it back. I don't care about keeping any salmon after they've been in the river, but they are fun to catch.


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## ds541

rcleofly said:


> It's official! If you Salmon fish rivers your a snagger. Lol.
> 
> Listen all methods that you guys are talking about are good ways to catch fish. They all work. I've done at one time or another all of them. I'm no genius but I'm definitely smart enough to figure out how to snag with all methods.
> 
> This argument is so very ignorant. I'm sure every guy who has posted on this wether you believe it or not has snagged a salmon. It happens. 20+ 15lbs kings in a 4' wide 9' long 7' deep hole with a line running threw it. Do the math, it's very basic.
> 
> Some guys snag, some guys try hard to be legit. Honestly who cares.
> 
> SHUT UP AND FISH go have fun. Pick up your trash. Teach a buddy or a child to fish. Enjoy the beauty of the area. Go home with a smile. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing. Life is to short.
> 
> I'd be out on the river right now but my wife won't let me fish 24/7, she is mean. Lol
> 
> Come on let's end this for good. Good luck to all who get out on the water this weekend.


 What he said! only because I could not have said it better myself.


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## BigAl

If you are running two flies (streamer and egg pattern) which one should be next to weight and which one on the end of the rig. I was under impression that egg should be at the end. It makes streamer to chase the egg once in a current, correct? I was surprised to see this link which shows streamer on the end of the rig.http://www.current-works.com/fly-fishing-articles/rigging-for-steelhead-salmon/


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## harley parmenter

I've always put my stone fly or streamer behind an egg or bead, seams to float a little higher off the bottom. I allways post a bead 1" from the hook,limits foul hooking and keeps it real.With the right presantation the fish do not spook off to the side and the hook set is inside the mouth.Thanks current works for some valued information.Enjoy the great outdoors,I only have a couple of more trips after kings before my setters start a revolt. The King of gamebirds is waiting.


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## rftech

I like how it is said if you are using Chuck N duck it is flossing. Kinda like algore and the debate is over. I use Chuck N duck. When I get to fish, I will try different flies. If I get no hits, I will change the fly, when I get the right fly, I usually get a hit on the first cast. Oh yea there are times I cast poorly and the fly misses the area by 3 or 4 feet. I have seen the salmon swim to the fly open its mouth and attack it. If the fly hits the corner of the mouth, you may be flossing, if it is toward the front middle, it is more likely a biter. But hey i guess the debate is over.


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## Shift7609

My buddy actually caught some mono line this weekend with a fish on the other end when he hand lined it in it was a king with a treble hook in it's dorsal fin with two split shots above it and no yarn even I mean that's a lot worse then flossing!


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## mrjimspeaks

I didn't know Al Gore came out against flossing, we've got some powerful friends.


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## 989nate989

I have a hard time believing that that salmon that has been harassed by 10 other fisherman dragging hooks across him is actively seeking out my fly to eat! There in the river to spawn not eat. Just saying. Hope however you fish, you have fun doing it. And if you know your within the rules, then have at it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## Flyfisher

I didn't even have to read most of the thread to come to the conclusion that jfish is completely right about "flyfishing" for salmon. Keep fooling yourselves, guys.


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## -Axiom-

It's always interesting to read people getting all self righteous about foul hooking a zombie boot.

I am far more concerned about the littering than these stupid salmon.


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## ausable_steelhead

-Axiom- said:


> It's always interesting to read people getting all self righteous about foul hooking a zombie boot.
> 
> I am far more concerned about the littering than these stupid salmon.


It's not so much self righteousness, as simply educating people that salmon do indeed bite certain presentations. We do have this debate every single season, and I have no problem with it. The more proof and info out there on biting salmon, the better. 

Tons of people simply don't care how they hook/get their salmon, they just get them. Some have no respect or morals at all, and just jerk away, then brag about their "skill". Others unknowingly line fish and don't have the slightest idea that salmon isn't biting, as it's inside the mouth(easy to do). You can't blame them to a point. However, talk about legit biting salmon has been around regularly since atleast the 90's. Magazines, outdoor shows, ton's on the internet. There's really no reason not to know this by now.

I'd rather people zip fish versus outright snag them, but why come on here and act like you're so skilled doing it? It's so easy to line salmon, it's not even funny. The reason bobbers and spawn is pushed and yakked about so much is because it's simple and SOOOO effective on salmon. You never have to dig a fly out or cut the line because it's so far down a salmon's throat, the hook isn't visible. With eggs, that happens all the time. People get defensive because they think they're being forced a method. It's simply people showing and trying to enlighten you to the fact that you can get all the salmon you want, by a technique that incites actual bites. Nothing compares to watching that bobber drop, setting into solid resistance and watching a king rip the surface apart. Nothing.


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## Flyfisher

ausable_steelhead said:


> It's not so much self righteousness, as simply educating people that salmon do indeed bite certain presentations. We do have this debate every single season, and I have no problem with it. The more proof and info out there on biting salmon, the better.
> 
> Tons of people simply don't care how they hook/get their salmon, they just get them. Some have no respect or morals at all, and just jerk away, then brag about their "skill". Others unknowingly line fish and don't have the slightest idea that salmon isn't biting, as it's inside the mouth(easy to do). You can't blame them to a point. However, talk about legit biting salmon has been around regularly since atleast the 90's. Magazines, outdoor shows, ton's on the internet. There's really no reason not to know this by now.
> 
> I'd rather people zip fish versus outright snag them, but why come on here and act like you're so skilled doing it? It's so easy to line salmon, it's not even funny. The reason bobbers and spawn is pushed and yakked about so much is because it's simple and SOOOO effective on salmon. You never have to dig a fly out or cut the line because it's so far down a salmon's throat, the hook isn't visible. With eggs, that happens all the time. People get defensive because they think they're being forced a method. It's simply people showing and trying to enlighten you to the fact that you can get all the salmon you want, by a technique that incites actual bites. Nothing compares to watching that bobber drop, setting into solid resistance and watching a king rip the surface apart. Nothing.


So much truth. The lack of experience and need to identify with a particular method (flyfishing) because it is considered more "sporting" than bait is unfortunate. I've fly-fished much longer than a lot of the people on this forum but feel no need to go floss boots, which is certainly NOT sporting. But if it gets someone excited I guess, go for it. Please just don't try and tell people that have been there, done that how salmon (particularly kings) are biting on flies and chasing them down. From my experience, it often appears that a salmon is chasing a fly downstream when in fact it is spooked by the line/weight and actually turning to avoid it.


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## FishKilla419

I like when my bobbers going right past me or even better my buddy or even better some ripper. Bobber down I set the hook and the thing comes up head shaking so hard you get soaked with cold river water. Now that'll wake you up..

Sent from my S5


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## Fishndude

Many truths, and opinions in this thread.

BigAl: Sorry your 4-piece rod became a 5 piece rod. :sad: I would say an 8 weight is too light for Kings, but I have been accused of going too heavy at times. I love an 8 weight for Steelhead, but I jump up to a 10 weight (or heavier) for Kings. Lining vs fair hooking? Stripping Streamers will put biters on your line, but not typically a lot of them. The truth is that Kings usually don't bite real well once they hit the rivers. But if you find a good sized pod of fish, some of them will bite (while most won't), and you can have some fun. 
Chuck & Duck can be productive, but is also very conducive to foul hooking fish. If you want to rig for this, consider Climax instead of Amnesia. It "runs" through your guides better, and drifts a lot better in the water. A 2-fly rig increases the chances of getting a hook into a fish - somehow. Whenever I hear someone talk about using a 2-fly rig, and getting all their bites on just one of the flies, I have 2 questions. 1) was it the "dropper" fly? (which swings more as it is drifted), and 2) why didn't you just clip off the fly that wasn't getting bit, and use a single fly? Questions to be mulled over, and not looking for responses at all. 

Good luck BigAl, on your next Salmon quest. They sure do pull hard.


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## Flyfisher

Fishndude said:


> Stripping Streamers will put biters on your line, but not typically a lot of them.


No doubt, but who wants to cast big streamers all day for a fish or two?


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## steeler

If I read some posts correctly, some are saying salmon don't bite flies.

This is where i beg to differ. 9 out of 10 fish I land is from a strike and on the chops. Yes, there is the occasional foul hook on the fin or tail which can't be helped. Salmon is a trout. And like any trout they have a preference on flies depending on the insects in the river. What may work on the Muskegon may not work on the Manistee. When i was fishing the Manistee one time off a boat by the Tippy launch I noticed the river was carpeted with salmon. I could have just easily thrown any hook and jerk back and hook a fish. But thats not my style.

I tried 4 different flies before I had a strike... after strike... after strike.

And when you get them on the chops they are easier to land.

But it comes down to presentation and not just throwing a line and jerking back. I did that at the little sable back when snagging was legal. Unfortunately, I still see it now.


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## Flyfisher

steeler said:


> If I read some posts correctly, some are saying salmon don't bite flies.
> 
> This is where i beg to differ. 9 out of 10 fish I land is from a strike and on the chops. Yes, there is the occasional foul hook on the fin or tail which can't be helped.
> 
> And when you get them on the chops they are easier to land.
> 
> But it comes down to presentation and not just throwing a treble and jerking back. I did that at the little sable back when snagging was legal. Unfortunately, I still see it now.


And how many of those 9 out of 10 fish actually bit your fly, as opposed to being lined/flossed? It really isn't that tough to line salmon.


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## wartfroggy

steeler said:


> This is where i beg to differ. 9 out of 10 fish I land is from a strike and on the chops.


I bet I can do that with a bare hook, too.


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## Flyfisher

wartfroggy said:


> I bet I can do that with a bare hook, too.


Yep


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## steeler

Flyfisher said:


> And how many of those 9 out of 10 fish actually bit your fly, as opposed to being lined/flossed? It really isn't that tough to line salmon.


If you are upstream of the fish and let your fly drift in front of them... you won't be lining them. There is a difference between a strike and a floss. And if you are not using the right fly you can fish all day and you will not get a strike.

But you will definitely line and floss them. Didn't you notice that their teeth are pretty white


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## Flyfisher

steeler said:


> If you are upstream of the fish and let your fly drift in front of them... you won't be lining them. There is a difference between a strike and a floss. And if you are not using the right fly you can fish all day and you will not get a strike.


lol, keep convincing yourself these fish are biting.


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## rcleofly

Just asking a question here so don't freak. If Joe is fishing an Indy setup on a fly rod, using a foam egg pattern? And Steve is using a spinning rod with a bobber (Indy) same thing, with a spawn bag? Both catch 3 fish in the mouth. Who is flossing? And how do you know? What is different?


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## steeler

I think the key word is presentation and strike.


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## Flyfisher

rcleofly said:


> Just asking a question here so don't freak. If Joe is fishing an Indy setup on a fly rod, using a foam egg pattern? And Steve is using a spinning rod with a bobber (Indy) same thing, with a spawn bag? Both catch 3 fish in the mouth. Who is flossing? And how do you know? What is different?


If they are set at an identical depth (with fly/bait/weight not touching the bottom) with a completely vertical presentation, and getting a perfect drag-free drift then I would say neither is lining. As soon as the angle of the line from the bobber/indicator begins to become more towards the horizontal, lining becomes possible, which is usually at the end of a drift. The proper use of a bobber/indicator can help to eliminate lining. That said, I have seen many a guy line fish with a bobber or indicator when they let the rig swing and fish the rig at a much deeper setting than is required for the depth.


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## Flyfisher

steeler said:


> I think the key word is presentation and strike.


:lol: Yeah, OK


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## Trout King

Ignorance is bliss I suppose. I am with flyfisher all the way. Do I care if people floss? Nope, doesn't bother me too much, but I take satisfaction in watching a bobber drop or feeling hardware get crushed. I used to believe they hit yarn, then some from this site and other experienced fisherman i know jumped on me a bit...that is when I started paying attention and learning. Test the theory for yourselves....put a nymph or egg fly under a bobber (the correct way not dredging bottom) and see how many kings you hook. After a few hours of catching jack, go to chuck and duck and see the results. If they are actually biting shouldn't it be somewhat the same results? I bet it won't be.


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## Flyfisher

Trout King said:


> Test the theory for yourselves....put a nymph or egg fly under a bobber (the correct way not dredging bottom) and see how many kings you hook. After a few hours of catching jack, go to chuck and duck and see the results. If they are actually biting shouldn't it be somewhat the same results? I bet it won't be.


I used to fish the Betsie every fall for early steelhead (usually skippers that came in with the kings) and lake browns with indicators and egg flies in the pockets, runs, and holes. Despite the obvious presence of kings, we rarely, if ever hooked them.


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## FishKilla419

wartfroggy said:


> I bet I can do that with a bare hook, too.


Bet I can double that with a bare hook.

Sent from my S5


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## stockrex

what the heck is a double fly rig?


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## rftech

If what you say is so about C&D, then I should be able to get as many fish with a bare hook C&D as with a fly. The fish are not eating the fly, they are territorial, they are attacking what is in their "bed". IF what you say is true, why is it that 90% of the time the female will take the egg flies and the male will take the green caddis? I have seen the salmon swim over and bite the fly. Can the fish be lined? It can happen. That will put the fly in the corner of the mouth. If it is to the front, it is a biter.


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## Steelheadfred

Flyfisher said:


> The Denial River is strong in this thread.



That river I just read had a big push of fish.


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## Flyfisher

Steelheadfred said:


> That river I just read had a big push of fish.


Denial Perch?


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## Steelheadfred

Flyfisher said:


> Denial Perch?



Kangs BrAh


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## Flyfisher

Steelheadfred said:


> Kangs BrAh


::drops everything, books motel in Benzonia, ties up 4 dozen egg-sucking leeches::


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## Steelheadfred

Flyfisher said:


> ::drops everything, books motel in Benzonia, ties up 4 dozen egg-sucking leeches::


See'n any up there?


Try green caddis fly, what happens is the female fans the nest and kicks these caddis larvae up and the males are worried they are going to eat the eggs in the gravel, so they in turn gobble them up. 

Typically this works best on a running line tandem fly rig with a slinky, get your line to bow down stream, a nice moon shape works best. The Egg Sucking Leach get's there attention then the caddis fly comes and they can't resist. Fish ON BROTHER! that's why you see them move out of the way of the leach, they are headed to eat the caddis.


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## Flyfisher

Steelheadfred said:


> See'n any up there?
> 
> 
> Try green caddis fly, what happens is the female fans the nest and kicks these caddis larvae up and the males are worried they are going to eat the eggs in the gravel, so they in turn gobble them up.
> 
> Typically this works best on a running line tandem fly rig with a slinky, get your line to bow down stream, a nice moon shape works best. The Egg Sucking Leach get's there attention then the caddis fly comes and they can't resist. Fish ON BROTHER! that's why you see them move out of the way of the leach, they are headed to eat the caddis.


Thanks for the tip, I'll switch out with a glo-bug every once in a while because the females ("hens") see an egg drift by and try to grab it to put back in their nest ("red"), or so I have heard.

I sure hope those yellow rod types aren't up there, they stringer everything they catch instead of letting them go so someone else can fight them another day.


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## Kris.J

ausable_steelhead said:


> It's simply people showing and trying to enlighten you to the fact that you can get all the salmon you want, by a technique that incites actual bites. Nothing compares to watching that bobber drop, setting into solid resistance and watching a king rip the surface apart. Nothing.


I can't wait! This year will be my first year fishing spawn under a float! Heading up Friday and spending a week, I can't wait!


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## FishMichv2

i catch a lot of fall steelhead on C&D rigs and a lot of trout too. were those lined? C&D rigs can certainly be abused but they can also be very productive. the type of rig you use and the angle you take for your drift can be the difference between lining fish and getting biting fish.

in my van i carry a centerpin, a surf rod, a plug/spoon casting rod, a fly rod with a sink tip, and a fly rod with a C&D rig. i enjoy using them all and anyone who chooses to look down their nose at me for using any of them can continue to do so if that makes you sleep better at night knowing how much better you are. 

caught on a C&D rig with a streamer while fishing during the salmon run...









caught on a C&D rig with an egg pattern during the fall...









ill probably just go ahead and keep using my C&D rig. for the record, my rig consists of a shooting line with about 7ft of 10lb flouro with a couple splitshot roughly 2ft from a single fly. not everyone running a C&D rig is lining fish and in fact not all of them are even fishing for salmon during the salmon run. those of you who choose to judge and treat people as if they are stupid because you think you are better than them really are disgusting. and if you didnt realize that a C&D rig can be very productive for biting fish then you dont know as much about fishing as you thought you did. i might line some salmon from time to time but im not worried about it. i dont use bugs but i know they bite eggs/leaches/streamers.


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## FishMichv2

ausable_steelhead said:


> Nothing compares to watching that bobber drop, setting into solid resistance and watching a king rip the surface apart. Nothing.


tough to argue this but i really do enjoy casting plugs for them as well. a king crushing a plug can be pretty ridiculous.


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## FishKilla419

FishMichv2 said:


> i catch a lot of fall steelhead on C&D rigs and a lot of trout too. were those lined? C&D rigs can certainly be abused but they can also be very productive. the type of rig you use and the angle you take for your drift can be the difference between lining fish and getting biting fish.
> 
> in my van i carry a centerpin, a surf rod, a plug/spoon casting rod, a fly rod with a sink tip, and a fly rod with a C&D rig. i enjoy using them all and anyone who chooses to look down their nose at me for using any of them can continue to do so if that makes you sleep better at night knowing how much better you are.
> 
> caught on a C&D rig with a streamer while fishing during the salmon run...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> caught on a C&D rig with an egg pattern during the fall...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ill probably just go ahead and keep using my C&D rig. for the record, my rig consists of a shooting line with about 7ft of 10lb flouro with a couple splitshot roughly 2ft from a single fly. not everyone running a C&D rig is lining fish and in fact not all of them are even fishing for salmon during the salmon run. those of you who choose to judge and treat people as if they are stupid because you think you are better than them really are disgusting. and if you didnt realize that a C&D rig can be very productive for biting fish then you dont know as much about fishing as you thought you did. i might line some salmon from time to time but im not worried about it. i dont use bugs but i know they bite eggs/leaches/streamers.


You know exactly what your doing. Your doing everything to avoid flossing kings to get your patterns to the big shiny trout. 
Your not the guy blasting about he went 7 for 79, on kings that would only eat a #12 caddis on 6# 9'leader. 


Sent from my S5


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## johnnie555

Big Skip said:


> The many reasons I don't salmon fish anymore are reiterated over and over and over on this thread. Everyone judging, thinking they are better than everyone else. Oh and everyone knows exactly what they eat. Come on man!
> Instead of enjoying the outdoors and our great resources...everyone is so critical of the next guy. Some people can't afford a big boat or a $800 center pin setup, and they get judged for putting a couple salmon on the stringer, while others troll every weekend and kill hundreds of fish.
> Whatever, enlighten me with some more holier-than-thou crap about exactly how to catch them...thanks for ruining it for me.


My thoughts exactly. It's usually the same people every year. This same topic happens every single year. It's like the movie "ground hog day" it just keeps happening over and over and over again.


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## Kris.J

&#8220;If you love people, you have no desire to judge them.&#8221; 
&#8213; Steve Goodier

Why Judging People Makes Us Unhappy
http://goo.gl/K9n7pN


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## wintrrun

Kris.J said:


> If you love people, you have no desire to judge them.
> &#8213; Steve Goodier



Obviously steve does not fish for salmon.


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## METTLEFISH

Some of this "stuff" is better than the Comedy channell!:lol:


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## Fishndude

FishMichv2 said:


> i catch a lot of fall steelhead on C&D rigs and a lot of trout too. were those lined? C&D rigs can certainly be abused but they can also be very productive. the type of rig you use and the angle you take for your drift can be the difference between lining fish and getting biting fish.
> 
> in my van i carry a centerpin, a surf rod, a plug/spoon casting rod, a fly rod with a sink tip, and a fly rod with a C&D rig. i enjoy using them all and anyone who chooses to look down their nose at me for using any of them can continue to do so if that makes you sleep better at night knowing how much better you are.
> 
> caught on a C&D rig with a streamer while fishing during the salmon run...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> caught on a C&D rig with an egg pattern during the fall...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ill probably just go ahead and keep using my C&D rig. for the record, my rig consists of a shooting line with about 7ft of 10lb flouro with a couple splitshot roughly 2ft from a single fly. not everyone running a C&D rig is lining fish and in fact not all of them are even fishing for salmon during the salmon run. those of you who choose to judge and treat people as if they are stupid because you think you are better than them really are disgusting. and if you didnt realize that a C&D rig can be very productive for biting fish then you dont know as much about fishing as you thought you did. i might line some salmon from time to time but im not worried about it. i dont use bugs but i know they bite eggs/leaches/streamers.


Nice fishing! How do you get those spawning Kings to leave your flies alone long enough for them to pass behind the redds, so Steelhead can snap them up? :evilsmile

Sorry for that. The truth is that you aren't fishing for the Kings, and they aren't biting, so what you are doing is putting biting Steelhead on your line. 

I used to take the 3rd week of October off every fall, to fish for Steelhead on the Ausable. That was the week the Salmon spawn peaked, and eggs were just rolling all over that river. And in a typical week I might land 20 - 30 Steelhead, and maybe two Jack Kings - but not a single adult King. Of course I was bottom bounding with spawnbags, or running them under a float. I am sure I could have floated skein in some slower holes, and pulled some adult Kings, but I wasn't fishing for Kings. My point is that, while I often fished through spawning Kings, to get the Steelhead lurking behind them, I NEVER incidentally hooked those Kings. They would move out of the way of a spawnbag, which was drifting along perfectly. And once the bait dropped off behind a redd, it was time to get serious about that drift. 

I've known Kelly Newman for many years, and have seen him put his clients on countless Steelhead fishing C&D style. And they are catching biting Steel using flies, which is what they are after. But the same method isn't nearly as productive for putting biting Kings on someone's line.


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## Flyfisher

FishMichv2 said:


> i catch a lot of fall steelhead on C&D rigs and a lot of trout too. were those lined? C&D rigs can certainly be abused but they can also be very productive. the type of rig you use and the angle you take for your drift can be the difference between lining fish and getting biting fish.
> 
> in my van i carry a centerpin, a surf rod, a plug/spoon casting rod, a fly rod with a sink tip, and a fly rod with a C&D rig. i enjoy using them all and anyone who chooses to look down their nose at me for using any of them can continue to do so if that makes you sleep better at night knowing how much better you are.
> 
> caught on a C&D rig with a streamer while fishing during the salmon run...
> 
> ill probably just go ahead and keep using my C&D rig. for the record, my rig consists of a shooting line with about 7ft of 10lb flouro with a couple splitshot roughly 2ft from a single fly. not everyone running a C&D rig is lining fish and in fact not all of them are even fishing for salmon during the salmon run. those of you who choose to judge and treat people as if they are stupid because you think you are better than them really are disgusting. and if you didnt realize that a C&D rig can be very productive for biting fish then you dont know as much about fishing as you thought you did. i might line some salmon from time to time but im not worried about it. i dont use bugs but i know they bite eggs/leaches/streamers.


Apples and oranges, it is one thing to swing a tandem fly rig with 6'-8' of total leader/tippet through a group of salmon in less than 3 FOW versus drift fishing an egg fly on a short leader for steelhead/trout. It is not the rig as much as how it is used. Targeting actively feeding fish (steelhead/trout) with a C'nD rig is totally legit, IMO, not that my opinion counts. 

Do you get a lot of salmon biting your flies while doing this? As I mentioned earlier, I used to fish the Betsie a lot for early steelhead/lake browns and did quite well on them (in this case using an indicator rig) on egg flies in the runs and pockets behind the salmon. We rarely, if ever, had bites from king salmon despite the fact they were in these same places. Coho were a different story, for some reason.


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## FishMichv2

Flyfisher said:


> Apples and oranges, it is one thing to swing a tandem fly rig with 6'-8' of total leader/tippet through a group of salmon in less than 3 FOW versus drift fishing an egg fly on a short leader for steelhead/trout. It is not the rig as much as how it is used. Targeting actively feeding fish (steelhead/trout) with a C'nD rig is totally legit, IMO, not that my opinion counts.
> 
> Do you get a lot of salmon biting your flies while doing this? As I mentioned earlier, I used to fish the Betsie a lot for early steelhead/lake browns and did quite well on them (in this case using an indicator rig) on egg flies in the runs and pockets behind the salmon. We rarely, if ever, had bites from king salmon despite the fact they were in these same places. Coho were a different story, for some reason.


Coho are definitely a different story. i will say however that i have caught what i believe to be biting kings on occasions when the fish werent heavily pressured all day and i know ive caught biters on streamers under various conditions. most of the time however if im king fishing its not with a fly rod except for streamers in the Platte.

the whole point of my post is that just because someone has shooting line spooled up on their flyreel doesnt mean they may as well be running a yellow rod and a tickler. a C&D rig isnt synonymous with lining all the time.

id also like to point out that many people are learning about salmon fishing and trying to be legit(there are exceptions of course) so treating them as if they are stupid maybe isnt the best way to go about things. i think most people go through a process when it comes to salmon fishing unless they had a good teacher right off the bat. some people here legitimately try to enlighten and help while others act as if they are gods gift to the art of fishing and do their best to belittle people.


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## Flyfisher

FishMichv2 said:


> some people here legitimately try to enlighten and help


I have tried, but my delivery is poor because the discussion gets tiring after 12 years on this forum. And a lot of "professionals" perpetuate certain myths to sell guide trips and flies.


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