# 'doing or about to do damage'



## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

FMann said:


> uptracker it states in the rule book that WE Can take coyote and **** when doing or about to do damage. I don't know about your CO's in the UP but here in the thumb they are more than helpful whit doing or about to do damage. Like I said in my eariler post if its breathing they say its about to do damage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think uptracker just took it literally when I said "for the sake of ADC". He's right that you need a license to do ADC work, but only when you charge for it. The DNR wants only licensed professionals charging $$$ for doing ADC work and so some people associate any use of "ADC" with a specific type of commercial activity instead of just shorthand for animal damage control.


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## SNAREMAN (Dec 10, 2006)

I really don't think money has anything to do with it,it's about the DNR wanting records of #'s,species ect..Nothing says I have to charge,trade ect..to act under my ADC license,but I do have to keep detailed records.Coyote and **** are the only animals that can be taken out of season without the landowner getting a damage permit,or being done by someone with a ADC license.Does'nt matter if its done for free or if a fee is being charged.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Doesn't seem to make sense to me to just get a license to keep numbers. Why get one at all then?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

It's going to take me a month to read and digest this:

http://www.midnr.com/Publications/pdfs/wildlife/license_&_applications/IC9152WildlifeDamageandNuisanceControlPermits.pdf


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## SNAREMAN (Dec 10, 2006)

FREEPOP said:


> Doesn't seem to make sense to me to just get a license to keep numbers. Why get one at all then?


Not saying that a fee is not charged most times,but it does not have to be.Having the license saves the land owner from applying for the permit,waiting for it to be issued ect..The point I was tring to make is that for everything other than coyote/****,a permit/license is needed to take out of season,does'nt matter if a fee is being charged or not.


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## Moose57 (Sep 7, 2009)

FREEPOP said:


> It's going to take me a month to read and digest this:
> 
> http://www.midnr.com/Publications/p...52WildlifeDamageandNuisanceControlPermits.pdf


You are right there FREEPOP, thats alot of info...


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Bottom line is I doubt C.O.'s are going to give a landowner a ticket for shooting a yote or **** oon private property especially near the home. Its the LEO's discretion to determine if wrong doing has occured or not. My CO said its really nothing to be worried about as long as you are not out "hunting" them when you are not supposed to be. I think this is a way LEO's can use the law to get a dirtbag they know is a repeat violator but they may not have the evidence. Like Capone and tax evasion.

Ganzer


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

SNAREMAN said:


> Not saying that a fee is not charged most times,but it does not have to be.Having the license saves the land owner from applying for the permit,waiting for it to be issued ect..The point I was tring to make is that for everything other than coyote/****,a permit/license is needed to take out of season,does'nt matter if a fee is being charged or not.


No closed season on skunk, possum, weasel too. It appears that some animals still need permits.

I was just trying to figure out your last statement, because why would anyone want a license that the only benefit was that you had to keep good records? Sounds like more work for no benefit. 

I have the link now, but like I said, it's gonna be a while before I can understand all that.


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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

SNAREMAN said:


> Not saying that a fee is not charged most times,but it does not have to be.


Of course not, but the point of the ADC license is the same as the point of a contractor's license, or a medical practitioner's license, etc. Any of those professionals that are state regulated can work without a fee, but the purpose of the license is to protect the customer and the society from unscrupulous contractors who misrepresent as "experts". Because it is commerce, it can be regulated, whereas if you are a landowner, you have the rights of land use.



> The point I was tring to make is that for everything other than coyote/****,a permit/license is needed to take out of season,does'nt matter if a fee is being charged or not.


This wouldn't really hold up and the DNR actually knows and understands that. If you've got a mink or a marten or a fisher raiding your chicken coop, you can trap it. You have a right to protect your investments from damage by wildlife and you don't need a license to do it. You can even shoot a bald eagle if it's attacking your livestock. You might have to fight it in court and you might have to take it all the way to the US Supreme court, but you'll win and they're afraid of the implications of losing, so they will be very careful about when they fight. That's one of the reasons they reimburse ranchers for losses to protected wolves. They want to preserve their authority, even if it means buying cooperation or looking the other way sometimes rather than trying to assert it. Violating your land use rights can put them in water so hot they'll come out of it without the authority to attract enough license revenue to justify their existence.


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## Moose57 (Sep 7, 2009)

FREEPOP said:


> No closed season on skunk, possum, weasel too. It appears that some animals still need permits.
> 
> I was just trying to figure out your last statement, because why would anyone want a license that the only benefit was that you had to keep good records? Sounds like more work for no benefit.
> 
> I have the link now, but like I said, it's gonna be a while before I can understand all that.


I think the quickest way out of this whole mess would be to include the Coyote in the "NO closed season along with skunks, possum,weasels"... 
As far as leaving it up to the LEO discretion... IMHO, That sounds like two trains on the same track... A big accident waiting to happen...
Myself I will play it safe and hunt, trap during the seasons. I would not want to be the guy who has to face a LEO who might have had a bad day and his discretion has gone south for the day.


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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

Moose57 said:


> I think the quickest way out of this whole mess would be to include the Coyote in the "NO closed season along with skunks, possum,weasels"...


I think they worry about cutting down on revenue from the licenses that coyote falls under. Plus they get a lot of grief from antis because coyotes are so similar to dogs. Skunks, possums and weasels are much less popular as icons.



> As far as leaving it up to the LEO discretion... IMHO, That sounds like two trains on the same track... A big accident waiting to happen...


I liken it to the state highway speed limit. Some state cops will bust you for 1 mph over. You want those to get weeded out. Some will wait until it's 11 over. Some will set their radar at 21 over and spend their time studying for their next promotion. You can argue that they're all doing their job. You just gotta have more respect for the two who recognize that there are benefits to letting people get where they're going a little faster.



> Myself I will play it safe and hunt, trap during the seasons. I would not want to be the guy who has to face a LEO who might have had a bad day and his discretion has gone south for the day.


As a landowner who wants to see more turkeys and grouse, I'd like to take out the egg eaters. The DNR would benefit because then I would buy a turkey hunting license. :lol:


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## Moose57 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bambicidal Maniac said:


> I think they worry about cutting down on revenue from the licenses that coyote falls under. Plus they get a lot of grief from antis because coyotes are so similar to dogs. Skunks, possums and weasels are much less popular as icons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I can agree with what you said BM.
Just hate to see the little guy get stung.
As a land owner myself I agree the egg stealers need to go! I would much rather see more Deer,Turkeys, Ducks, Pheasants, small game, than Coyotes.


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## SNAREMAN (Dec 10, 2006)

Bambicidal Maniac said:


> Of course not, but the point of the ADC license is the same as the point of a contractor's license, or a medical practitioner's license, etc. Any of those professionals that are state regulated can work without a fee, but the purpose of the license is to protect the customer and the society from unscrupulous contractors who misrepresent as "experts". Because it is commerce, it can be regulated, whereas if you are a landowner, you have the rights of land use.
> 
> 
> 
> This wouldn't really hold up and the DNR actually knows and understands that. If you've got a mink or a marten or a fisher raiding your chicken coop, you can trap it. You have a right to protect your investments from damage by wildlife and you don't need a license to do it. You can even shoot a bald eagle if it's attacking your livestock. You might have to fight it in court and you might have to take it all the way to the US Supreme court, but you'll win and they're afraid of the implications of losing, so they will be very careful about when they fight. That's one of the reasons they reimburse ranchers for losses to protected wolves. They want to preserve their authority, even if it means buying cooperation or looking the other way sometimes rather than trying to assert it. Violating your land use rights can put them in water so hot they'll come out of it without the authority to attract enough license revenue to justify their existence.


 I agree that MANY tickets are beat in court,I guess it comes down to if one wants to take the chance and is willing to spend the time/money fighting it.


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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

SNAREMAN said:


> I agree that MANY tickets are beat in court,I guess it comes down to if one wants to take the chance and is willing to spend the time/money fighting it.


I think the best advice on this whole thread has been to discuss it with your local CO. It doesn't guarantee that the next one in that job or the random CO in the field will agree, but I think most of the COs are gonna be pretty reasonable.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

Bambicidal Maniac said:


> I think the best advice on this whole thread has been to discuss it with your local CO. It doesn't guarantee that the next one in that job or the random CO in the field will agree, but I think most of the COs are gonna be pretty reasonable.


I think you guys are on to something here.....


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## Bambicidal Maniac (Feb 4, 2011)

I emailed someone in the DNR (who should be in a position to know if there is a guideline for COs) to try to get a clear ruling on who gets to define damage. The response I received was interestingly phrased:

The law says you can take a raccoon if it is doing or about to do damage. Since there is no way to predict if a raccoon is about to do damage you are free to assume they are always about to do damage. If you would like to research it farther a link to the Wildlife Conservation Order is below. Thanks 
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141-120756--,00.html


From the WCO, I get 



*3.605 Raccoon hunting, seasons; taking raccoons doing or about to do damage, person taking considered permittee.*
Sec. 3.605(2) A property owner or their designee may take raccoon all year on property owned by the person when raccoons are doing or are about to do damage to the person's property. _A person taking a raccoon under the authority of this subsection shall be considered a permittee as defined by section 5.50 of this order. A written permit is not required, and the person shall be authorized to take raccoon all year by otherwise lawful hunting and trapping methods._


When combining this response and this section of the WCOs with what my local CO said, my conclusion is that their position is, "We don't want to rule specifically on whose judgement to use, but judging from the fact that no permit or license is required, you can safely conclude nudge nudge wink wink say no more say no more."


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Yes but, trust me the check is in the mail.............
Best to cover yourself as much as possible like pictures of damage and/or a talk with your local C.O. In the unlikely event something should happen, that stuff would have you one step up instead of the feeling of standing there with your pants down.


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## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

Personally, I would be interested in knowing who gave you that response. It should have come with a name on it.


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## jsmith2232 (Jan 4, 2006)

a buddy of mine who snares yotes contacted the dnr and this is the response he forwarded to me.


hey just got off the phone with the DNR Law Enforcement division in Lansing.... They told me that you can legally trap with legal means year round if coyotes have or are about to cause damage... took them awhile to answer the question but the officer looked it up and said yes you can... but only on private property with landowners consent


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## griffondog (Dec 27, 2005)

If you tell a CO your trapping ***** on your property out of season to protect wildlife on your property your getting a ticket 90% of the time. 

Personal property is what the conservation order says. I get calls to kill ***** on the farms I trap when the sweet corn and melons get ripe. I take pictures just to cover my rear.

Same thing with coyotes and livestock I always take a few pictures just to make sure I'm covered. 


Mike


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