# white turkeys



## brownitsdown84 (Jan 19, 2009)

i have been scouting and have saw about 4 turkeys on my property that are almost all white. is this rare? and would a white gobbler be considerd a even better trophy than a normal colored?


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## Waxdart (Sep 1, 2007)

Had three smokey hens in the yard yesterday with one big normal colored tom. Pretty cool, never seen a white one before. Hoping they lay a white male this spring.


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## ryan-b (Sep 18, 2009)

ive always thought the white or ive seen partial white( not smokey) were just let go domestics or half breeds


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

ryan-b said:


> ive always thought the white or ive seen partial white( not smokey) were just let go domestics or half breeds


This was recently asked on another forum in a Q&A section Lovett Williams.. Williams is one of the most knowledgeable turkey biologists in the country.. 

Please help settle a debate and inform me on albino turkeys. Is this genetic? What else do you know about them? Thanks! There are three albinos (2 Toms & 1 Hen) but there used to be four. A few weeks ago I found a LARGE pile of white feathers.
Lovetts Answer:
It's genetic.

Some people, including some biologists, think that the bloodline of the wild turkey has been contaminated by genes of domestic turkeys but I think most off-color turkeys are completely wild and that the high frequency of color freaks these days is the result large sample size and inbreeding. 

Large sample size is a factor because there are a lot more turkeys being killed and reported. Inbreeding is the result of wild turkey flocks originating from trap run turkeys that are closely related, sometimes from the same brood. Inbreeding facilitates the occurrence of physical aberrations by increasing the probability that rare recessive genes will get paired up when the hen copulates with a closely related male. The "White Holland domestic turkey breed was created by back crossing white turkeys in domesticated flocks with close relatives. Once the dominate gene for normal plumage color is out the genome, white turkeys bred true and all the turkeys in successive generations are white.

It is no wonder that you found a pile of white feathers. Whiteness is a maladaption. A predator can easily spot a white turkey. That's why the tendency for whiteness will be eliminated from the genome eventually.


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## beervo2 (May 7, 2006)

I usually see 1 or 2 a year, but so far I haven't seen any this year..
I know they make a pretty mount...I shot a smokey gray bearded hen in the spring of 06 (pics of it in my pictures), if it wasn't a smokey I would of let it go, I normally do not shoot bearded hens in the spring..

Mike


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

is a good friend of mine for many years and a very knowledgeable wild turkey expert. 

But he's not familiar with Michigan, and the habitat wild turkeys occupy in southern Michigan, or the many domestics that people have as 4H and show birds in this state. Let him see all of that, which there is a great deal of, and then ALL the reports of white "wild" turkeys, 99% of which are in southern Michigan, hundreds of them every year, and he'd probably agree that most of them are probably descendants of domestics mixed with wild birds...and tell you that a DNA test would be the only way to tell unless the mixed color bird is showing other obvious domestic traits...shorter legs...more feathering around the head and neck...much stouter, rounder bodies, etc. In wild populations, albinism in any form is very rare. It isn't in Michigan for some reason....and I have seen wild toms breeding domestic birds. A lot of people have. To a turkey, a turkey is a turkey, as long as it's accessible, it's breedable. 

The DNR used to be proactive about all of these white birds, they aren't any more, and if it IS domestic blood, it is diluting wild genes and making our wild turkeys more vulnerable to pressures such as predation and survival in the wild in general. 

Take em out...


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## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Sorry Linda but I will have to side with Lovetts theory.

I have never seen a picture of a smokey grey that showed any leanings to a short legged big breasted domestic turkey.

Just like the sighting of more and more bearded hens it is genetic. I discussed multibpl beards with Lovett shortly after I shot the three multiple bearded toms off the same farm on the Garden Penninsula. He had asked for info for his book After the Hunt. When I called him the book was to far along to include my pictures but he did includemy name in the credits.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

You can believe anything you like, but how many of these birds that are actually running around out there have you actually seen? 

Take a good close look at one of them. Then look at the incidence of white in turkeys in southern Michigan as opposed to white in turkeys in northern Michigan-there's fewer domestic turkeys up here, and I haven't seen a turkey with any kind of paler color up here in 20 years now-ever since we had a hen stolen by two wild toms just north of me that raised an entire brood of little half-white birds. She was recovered by the guy who owned her-and the half-whites were taken out by locals and our CO at the time. Since then, no more white birds up here. 

And see if you can get a biologist to talk about them. Don't you think rare white turkeys would be a point of pride for the DNR? Instead, they just ignore them these days...again, 15 years ago they were taking them out. If they'd had any doubt in their minds about the genetics of those birds, they would have been crowing to the world about their rare turkeys...if they hadn't tried to pass legislation to protect them completely. 

And look at the very high incidence of white turkeys in southern Michigan-look at that hard. Yes, 35 years ago there was a strain of turkeys released in the Allegan area that had some white in them, but albinism is not something that is easy for a wild animal to live with, and they usually don't live long...something eats them because they stick out so much. 

And yet they're all over the place down there...hmmm...

whatever, as long as people continue a concentrated attempt to take them out...


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## Waxdart (Sep 1, 2007)

They aren't albino, not the ones I saw anyway, more like piebald. 

Look like Narragansett or Royal Palm turkeys.

Wouldn't say what they are with out a DNA test.


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

all the birds I've seen in Michigan like that looked exactly like those breeds, too. I've never seen a pure white turkey in the wild, just these mixed birds. A lot of people believe that the white/partial white is a strain of albinism, which it IS in SOME wild turkeys, but again, those are supposed to be VERY rare. These aren't. There must be 100 threads alone on this board about these birds from over the years. They're awesome looking birds, but I'm not sure they're hunting trophies.


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## WillHunt4Food (Sep 25, 2007)

I've seen a smokey grey hen behind my house the past 2 years. I haven't seen her this year though... Too bad she didn't have a beard. It would make for a sweet mount!


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Whats this then?


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## old professor (Oct 26, 2008)

About seven years ago there was a smokey white hen hanging around the Richmond Sportsmans Club in St Clair county. I saw it several times and it wasn't pure white like a domestic turkey. What causes this, I do not have a clue!


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

wintrrun said:


> Whats this then?


What I wouldnt do for a shot at that fellar.. Very nice specimen


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## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Look up domestic turkey breeds and see if that resembles a Royal Holland...or something like that, I can't remember exactly what they're called. Once you go through some sites of the various domestic and show breeds you won't be sure about any wild turkey with white being wild-even the Rios, Merriams, and Goulds. That's when you have to look at the body, a fuller, stockier, rounder body, (they're much heavier, too) a lot more feathering around the head and neck, and shorter legs with bigger feet. Domestic toms never stop gobbling, they'll gobble constantly. They'll come to any kind of call at any time of the year, and they'll do it repeatedly, instead of getting wise to it like a wild tom will. And domestic turkeys strut and gobble ANY time of the year, even in the middle of the winter...LOL


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## ezcaller (Feb 21, 2009)

As Lovett has said there are two theories. One based on beliefs and speculations the other on science. I lean toward the science end. Several years ago my son harvested a Melanistic or black bird from the Gladwin area and according to Lovett the melanistic birds are many times rarer than the albinos. As we talked to the locals and showed the bird off most said it was a cross breed with a domestic and we even heard two stories about some strain of black spanish turkey that they might have come from LOL.Again I will go along with Lovett on the recessive gene theory although the Spanish black bird is more intriguing.


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## michhutr (Jan 16, 2009)

This site had one that was very close. Was called the Royal Palm.




http://www.motherearthnews.com/Happy-Homesteader/Heritage-Turkey-Breeds.aspx


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## WALLEYE SEEKER (Nov 30, 2009)

They are nothing more than cross breads or turkeys that were let loose. Turkeys are very good at surviving in the wild even if there tame food is everywhere for them.


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## hplayer13 (Nov 3, 2008)

Linda,

The population of turkeys overall in northern michigan is MUCH less than the population in southern....so saying that the smokeys or albinos are strictly because of the domestics it doesn't exactly add up.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

For the folks saying they are domestic.. If they are feral and I shoot one, do I need to tag it


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## kcjablin (Sep 25, 2007)

Well, I don't know about being the most informed, but thanks. I've raised quite a few domestic turkeys, I have a Bourbon Red hen now that I wouldn't call dumb by any means. She hatches a clutch every year and has survived no less than five fox attacks on my poultry shed, she's an excellent flyer and very wary about predators. I will say that she HAD a couple sisters that weren't so smart and are now fox crap, but that's kind of my point, if the domestic breeds bring any bad genes into the pool they will be naturally filtered back out and pretty quickly too.

There are a lot more domestic ducks out there than domestic turkeys (just think of how many ducklings get sold this week) and there is no worry from the waterfowlers that ducks are becoming dumber, actually the contrary. Also Mallards are notorious for breeding with anything they can catch, there are some cool pics posted on the waterfowlers board every year of some crazy looking hybrids, but I've never heard any waterfowl biologists expressing concern for the future of other duck species.

I'm not pooh-poohing your concerns, I hope I'm not being naive about the situation and that it's not a bigger problem than I think it is, but I'm a hopeless optimist and I think that in general nature will prevail. Good luck this year, I've been watching a flock of about 20 bird across the road with two strutters in it while I write this. Even heard them gobble a couple of times this morning, AWESOME!!!


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## UNCLE TUB (Dec 1, 2009)

Linda has been envolved with turkeys when most of you were still in diapers and for the older folks she speaks from the heart on keeping the genes of the true wild turkey in Michigans flock. I'll side with Linda as I have been envolved with the N.W.T.F. here in Michigan for over 30 years. I believe there very well could be and probably are some smokey greys here in Michigan , but not to the numbers that are reported as seen on this forum. I will side with sib (domestic)on this picture as the beard is short, but without blood tests on any of the turkeys mentioned here everyone is guessing. I still would side with Linda. I shot a turkey three years ago in the late season with no spurs, had a 11" beard and looked exactly like a true wild turkey , but when the blood test was done by the local biologist it was cross bred with domestic stock even though it looked and acted like a wild bird. In fact this was the second bird shot from this area with the same trait.


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## UNCLE TUB (Dec 1, 2009)

It is not the surface traits that worry biologists on turkeys in the wild from tame stock it is the diseases that the tame turkey are more emune from and the wild turkeys are suseptible to. The blood diseases are the worst to the wild turkey. I think you are right to the aspects that some of the outer traits of farm bred turkeys will be filtered out over time as enter breeding occurs, but you still will have throw backs of the farm raised tukeys in your flocks. There also has been experiments with cross bred turkeys
( 80 percent wild stock and 20% tame stock) in northern climates and these turkeys dwindled in the harsh climates after a few years from around 35 birds to around 10. There survival rates in the wild were poor and they did not fare well through the winters without boarding at someones bird feeder. In the true wild they would not have survived very long this is why the MDNRE swapped for a more wild strain from Iowa for transplanting and establishing the flocks of today. Most of northern Michigan"s baldwin area flocks of wild turkey's are 95% true wild turkey and 5% domestic according to the boiologists. They have proven to be a hearty bird through the years although the MDNRE now perfers a more wild turkey strain to be transplanted.


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## Fabner1 (Jan 24, 2009)

I guess I'm going to have to post this on every white Turkey sighting.

I'm sure there are some domestic mixed in some areas but for the most part the following is the cause of "white" Turkeys in lower Michigan. 

This is the history of the Turkeys in Lower Michigan. 

We traded Iowa Ruffed Grouse for Turkeys after they introduced Turkeys and in ten years had more Turkeys than Michigan had after decades of having them here. Why we couldn't have used our own Turkeys is a question only the DNR can answer. The Iowa strain of Turkeys have a recessive gene that causes some of them to have a grayish white color or partially gray. It happens most often in hens although Toms can come out gray. They are sometimes referred to as "Trophy Grays". The most I have ever seen in a flock in my area is three. I have had a hen nest near the house for three years in a row. While Iowa was able to fulfill its obligation of Turkeys we were not able to give them the agreed on amount of Ruffed Grouse. It seems Grouse are not as predictable as Turkeys for trapping.

Turkeys were introduced in Northern Michigan to give a boost to the the local economy and it worked. The unfortunate thing is they have to be fed to survive in that area for the most part. Turkeys were never in Upper Michigan in pioneer days. The head of the Conservation Department at the time made a decision to not put them in the Lower because of concerns of dog and cat predation and poaching (there were no Coyotes in the lower at the time). Had that happened all those years ago we would be hip deep in Turkeys now. Shows you how short sightedness effects most decisions.


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## UNCLE TUB (Dec 1, 2009)

UNCLE TUB said:


> It is not the surface traits that worry biologists on turkeys in the wild from tame stock it is the diseases that the tame turkey are more emune from and the wild turkeys are suseptible to. The blood diseases are the worst to the wild turkey. I think you are right to the aspects that some of the outer traits of farm bred turkeys will be filtered out over time as enter breeding occurs, but you still will have throw backs of the farm raised tukeys in your flocks. There also has been experiments with cross bred turkeys
> ( 80 percent wild stock and 20% tame stock) in northern climates and these turkeys dwindled in the harsh climates after a few years from around 35 birds to around 10. There survival rates in the wild were poor and they did not fare well through the winters without boarding at someones bird feeder. In the true wild they would not have survived very long this is why the MDNRE swapped for a more wild strain from Iowa for transplanting and establishing the flocks of today. Most of northern Michigan"s baldwin area flocks of wild turkey's are 95% true wild turkey and 5% domestic according to the boiologists. They have proven to be a hearty bird through the years although the MDNRE now perfers a more wild turkey strain to be transplanted.


 Please excuse above spelling, not much sleep!


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