# Should the Youths have bag limit restrictions?



## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

To allow the "Hen Mallard Limit" thread to resume it's original purpose I'd like to bring the youth bag limit discussion here.

My feeling is that we should allow the kids a free weekend to poke ducks without the disincentive of worrying about hens and species. The entire idea is to get them out hunting in a more relaxed environment.

The population should be able to handle the hit and I'd like to see a proposal to pursue this with the Feds.

Any furthur insight?


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## Richard6908 (Jan 26, 2006)

I think that the limit regulations are fine as is. I understand early in the season some birds are hard to identify but that is all part of the sport.Sometimes you have to pass up some beautiful shot opportunities due to have a hen in the bag already if you can't identify the. Don't shoot


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

6 birds 4 mallards no restrictions.

Yes, you heard that correctly. This from the guy who shot 19 green heads and one hen last year, who passed hens twice on a day that she would have been the only bird in the bag.

I've had several youth hunts where we could not tell drakes from hens. I need to focus on the youth and gun safety when it's just us, and not bird on the right, now the left, now the right, no shot, no shot. 

To be honest, for youth hunts lately we've been going to wood duck haunts where they can blast away without having to worry.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

No, same unrealistic idea as raising minimum wage, those that don't want to train themselves don't deserve a freebie or special treatment.

Just because I'm colorblind they're not going to change the bag limit for me, I have no issues Identifying drakes, it's called having experience, and being taught restraint by my father. 

The only reason for raising the bag limit to 2 hens should be to support biological data. Fact


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> 6 birds 4 mallards no restrictions.
> 
> Yes, you heard that correctly. This from the guy who shot 19 green heads and one hen last year, who passed hens twice on a day that she would have been the only bird in the bag.
> 
> ...


So for 2 youth days of hunting we should change the entire bag limit to 4 hens/drakes? Makes sense....:help:

Lets not forget all you're promoting is more sky busting, dem r ducks, well pull the trigger we can choot 4 hens. SO unrealistic.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Yep. If the biology says we can all colletively shoot 2 hens all sixty days, then what extra take would 1000 kids shooting a couple extra mallards on one weekend add to the pile? I would donate the hens I pass every year to the youth if needed.

Why do we have the youth hunts early when it's warm and the ducks aren't educated? Is that too big of an advantage? 

I've had several hunts where we have been covered with birds but could not pull the trigger, and it really frustrated the kids. Sun over our back birds landing in the spread yet still taking binoculars to try to tell bill color. 

Kids want to pull the trigger. We can teach them restraint later, if they keep coming along, but a couple frustrating trips and it will be a little harder to roll them out of bed at 3am. Granted I am fortunate that my daughters have been coming along all year in any weather long before they could pull the trigger, so shooting is a bonus to them. But for a newbie we're trying to add to the fold, it can be a turn off.

As for skybusting, I fail to connect your bread crumbs from extra hens to that. I'm surprised you didn't say we'd just leave the ducks we can't find as we can just shoot more. Even my ten year old this year, on a very tough day when birds would not close, chided me for "taking them a little tall today old man", mostly as she had to chase the one mallard that didn't fall dead in the decoys (which we put the hunt on hold to track down, didn't lose a bird this year). But it was cool to see that even though she hasn't been pulling the trigger, she knows about range.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

I think one overlooked advantage of loosening the restrictions on youth bag limits is that it give extra incentive for dads or mentors to take youths all throughout the season.. 

"Well ya see there officer, lil Bobby bagged those 6 hens there and Johnny got those 5 hens and a drake and these 2 hens and 2 drakes are mine" "Those kids of mine are deadeyes" :lol:

All joking aside I am for it..


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

SBE, try to keep it civil please. 

Real boots on the ground experience with a 12 year old on his first hunt: my son shot a feet down hen. He couldn't have been happier and his dad (me) couldn't have been more proud. We had more birds come in feet down, but most were hens and the others we couldn't tell because they were silhouetted against the sun. He rode all the back to the launch clutching that duck. I wish he could have had more shooting opportunities, but it didn't work out. Same thing happened at Fish Point, almost exactly. He was still excited, but I could see the disappointment in his eyes. And then there are the days we blank - no duck luck, as he says. 

I'm not sure that a unlimited bag would would have THAT much affect on him, but it sure would make it more fun and I think that's what the point is. More fun will equals more retention as they mature and learn differentiating the species. But this is going to sound like I'm both sides of the fence - I think that youths should shoot does in the youth deer hunt. My boy would be over the moon just to shoot a deer. Maybe it's apples and oranges.

I think a two hen limit is a step in the right direction and a good compromise.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

Bag limits are there for a reason.


Youthful hunters need to learn to id birds and if they cannot do it on the wing, then in hand id might mean that their day is over.


I am all for youthful opportunities but changing restrictions for ducks or deer is counterproductive.


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## waxico (Jan 21, 2008)

Under no circumstances should it ever be OK to give "special treatment" when it comes to the rules. They're there for a reason, and the sooner junior learns them and WHY they are there, the sooner junior becomes a legimate participant instead of some ""special needs" group.

Gosh darn it this is happening all over society and if we don't draw the line somewhere there will only be "suggestions"

Sheesh they didn't even have youth hunts when I was a kid yet somehow, some way I figured things out for myself....


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> Yep. If the biology says we can all colletively shoot 2 hens all sixty days, then what extra take would 1000 kids shooting a couple extra mallards on one weekend add to the pile? I would donate the hens I pass every year to the youth if needed.
> 
> Why do we have the youth hunts early when it's warm and the ducks aren't educated? Is that too big of an advantage?
> 
> ...



Assuming you only shot 20 ducks last year, you're not covering..You fail to connect bread crumbs because it goes against your logic. If you don't put a restriction on things, you open the gates for more unethical things to happen. You have one case in point where your daughter told you, 
the "teacher" they were a little tall.

Again, just like WoW said, there's no need to alter a bag limit for something like this. Science is the only way. If you guys want more liberal bag limits take your kids to places that allow it, Canada, Central Flyway..you want to talk about fun. Cracks me up that a generation that used to work on a point system now wants 4 hens, 2 hens, and worry about their kids pulling the trigger. Well then put them in a scenario to allow them to pull the trigger, don't rely on your state to sacrifice the resources to do so. After all the kids are getting outside, most of them can't get their heads out of video games..


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Under that premise we should not have a youth hunt, as giving the kids their own warm, dumb bird opener is a special needs hunt. You cannot defend not allowing looser restrictions against the background of having a special hunt.

As for taking them tall, my daughter is so used to twenty gauge work that shooting forty yard birds with a 3" twelve was exceptional for her to witness. When we hunt together it's way more focus on time together and teaching than killing birds, but I had a 12 that day as it was late season managed area. Shot at five killed three and winged one, which she ran down. The one I missed was feet down in the spread at twenty five yards. And she really gave me crap about that until I hugged her and explained I was her ride home, then she metered it down some.


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## Richard6908 (Jan 26, 2006)

Point of a youth hunt is to have parents/ guardians taking the kids out to do a safety refresher and getting them out with more supervision. Great thing to have for the kids. We all know Regular season there are a lot of kids that don't get to go because there parents don't want to take them or parents that are more worried about them shooting birds versus helping their kid. I'm not saying everyone but I know a few people like this. Get the kids out and let them have some fun and tech them the regulations.

And if you need binos to see the bill color isn't that bird a little far to shoot. What about other things besides bill color?


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

For clarification, the ONLY time the youths would _potentially _have an unrestricted bag limit would be during the YOUTH HUNT. And, as we all know, the adults are NOT allowed to hunt ducks during the current YOUTH HUNT.

I highly doubt the Feds will loosen the grip on the bag limits for our flyway, even for the youth hunt. This is all, very much, a hypothetical scenario.

Just so you know.


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## duckbuster2 (Aug 14, 2008)

NO,don't change a thing.Kids have to learn sometime and that's a good time.


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## lab1 (Aug 31, 2004)

As of next year, year, my kids will be too old to hunt on the youth hunt. However, I have no problem loosening the bag limit for the kids. For two days, I don't think it would affect the population much if at all. It was little frustrating when the first bird down was a hen and we passed on several birds without full id. Let them have more fun those two days! Then they get restricted like us.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

lab1 said:


> As of next year, year, my kids will be too old to hunt on the youth hunt. However, I have no problem loosening the bag limit for the kids. For two days, I don't think it would affect the population much if at all. It was little frustrating when the first bird down was a hen and we passed on several birds without full id. Let them have more fun those two days! Then they get restricted like us.




Let the child focus on fun and gun safety. Let the parent enjoy the moment and focus on gun safety. God willing they will have 60 years of duck id ahead of them.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

TSS Caddis said:


> Let the child focus on fun and gun safety. Let the parent enjoy the moment and focus on gun safety. God willing they will have 60 years of duck id ahead of them.




fun and gun safety.


Ok, that doesn't include killing unless you advocate teaching kids that they have to be killing to have fun.


Far too many people focus on pulling the trigger instead of the experience afield. That is exactly the reason we have Dads setting up rifles on lead sleds so their kid can shoot a trophy buck. I call BS on that too.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

SBE II said:


> Well then put them in a scenario to allow them to pull the trigger, don't rely on your state to sacrifice the resources to do so.


haha. thanks for the new signature.


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## michiganoutdoorsman (Dec 29, 2010)

I personally wouldn't care if they could shoot 4 hen mallards, and 6 total ducks. All the spots I take youths early in the year only have a small handful of mallards anyway. Most of the time it's all wood ducks and they don't really need to worry about drakes or hens. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

just ducky said:


> Personally I think plugging a gun for a youth is more of a hardship than making them ID their birds. JMO.


A 10 year old in most cases is lucky to get off 1 shot. 99.999% of hunters struggle to get off 3 quality shots at ducks so I doubt a youth could nor would the youth want the extra weight.

I unplugged my shot in Argentina and to be honest I don't think I ever used a 4th shell in a volley.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

i really don't care how many of what kind of bird they can shoot on youth weekend. It can be 1 bird or 6 birds. I do know that one of those answers will retain more hunters than the other answer.

6 ducks is 6 ducks on youth weekend. usually its teal or woodies so i don't even care what they decide, it will have 0 impact on the birds, the answer could have huge impact on the kids tho.

I spend more time trying to ID and call the shot for the youth during our hunts that it does kinda put a crimp on the hunt...sure would be to just tell them/help them call the shot on them tho with a liberal bag setup.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i really don't care how many of what kind of bird they can shoot on youth weekend. It can be 1 bird or 6 birds. I do know that one of those answers will retain more hunters than the other answer.
> 
> 6 ducks is 6 ducks on youth weekend. usually its teal or woodies so i don't even care what they decide, it will have 0 impact on the birds, the answer could have huge impact on the kids tho.
> 
> I spend more time trying to ID and call the shot for the youth during our hunts that it does kinda put a crimp on the hunt...sure would be to just tell them/help them call the shot on them tho with a liberal bag setup.




I became a waterfowler before I could even shoot. For the most part, I cut my teeth on divers and back then it didn't matter so much what you dropped the hammer on.


That said, when the point system came out, I enrolled in a duck ID class and I was still a kid.


Why should kids get different rules, I just don't get it?


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## Tom_Miller (Apr 23, 2010)

I haven't read the whole thread but I think I get the drift. I personally see no problem with relaxing the bag and species limits during youth weekend. Very few youths are going to shoot over six ducks anyway and it might allow them more time to just enjoy the experience of hunting waterfowl. I'm sure most kids want to get as much shooting as possible and don't really care if their duck is a mallard, a teal, or even a coot. Sure, they will eventually have to learn to ID ducks in the air but to start out, let 'em just learn to shoot at birds that are in range and have fun. Either way will have no biological impact on the waterfowl population.


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## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

Just like a democracy the people elect those that promise the most. Eventually that will catch up with us and the money will run out. That is the big flaw in democracy. 

People clamor about wanting this and that and then the powers to be cave in and give the people what they asked for. Some where some things got to give. Liberalize the Mallard hen limit and it's just a matter of time before we start seeing our 60 day season go away and we have 45 or even 30 day seasons. I think it's silly that these other states already have a more liberal limit on hen Mallards. It reminds me of a great saying. If Joe dove off that cliff does that mean you have to follow. People will always want more and more. Someone has to pay for this, will it eventually be all of us? I think it will if we go to a more liberal hen mallard limit. 

Just think how much better the hunting would be if those dam southerners weren't shooting all those egg layers


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

WoW. said:


> Why should kids get different rules, I just don't get it?


Exactly. They shouldn't. Making the rules easier for them is like giving a kid a trophy just for participating. Both equally stupid.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

goosemanrdk said:


> Sound's like we have a good compromise available to us. 2 Hen mallards FOR ALL during duck season. Some want 1, some want none, some want 4 for the youth hunt and some want 6 for the youth hunt. So, that puts 2 as close to the center as you can get with the least amount of difficulties.



EXACTLY! My son is in the learning phase of hunting. I think they call it "teachable moments". If science says it doesn't impact the resource, then by all means allow two hens. Most adults will continue to go green head only, but the kid can take an occasional dumb hen. It's especially sweet when they call them in on their own. It also starts them on the road of understanding species and gender limits, while giving a "mulligan" if you will.

As for unplugged guns, as a Hunter Ed Instructor, I'm going to give that one a flat bad idea. In fact, I have only given my son 1 shell for the past 2 years, so we learn to take the best shot when the duck is at it's most killable range. We also talk about and define fields of fire at each hunting spot. Of course muzzle control and use of the safety is all part of it. I'm going to graduate him to 2 shells this year while focusing on the above mentioned skills. Next year will be 3.

I like the youth hunt. My son understands it's all about him and appreciates it. He knows if he does the work and shows he can be safe, he'll be able to go to Big Guys duck camp. 

These kids do have different pressures on them today. Homework every night, parents who want their kid to be the next Tiger Woods in golf-soccer-gymnastics-band-baseball-football-cheerleading-etc., along with computers/ video games. We try to limit all of them and put the emphasis on life experience, like camping or hunting. 

Also, more mentors are available for the youth hunt. I know some die hard guys on this board who love duck hunting so much that taking a kid out those days is just like hunting themselves and I applaud that...a win-win for everyone.


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## Urriah (Jul 26, 2013)

One ongoing theme I see here, among both sides, is that all of the youth talked about are either us during our youth, or our children. I would bet that most of us were raised in a heavy hunting culture (I was) and were addicted to the outdoors no matter what we were doing. For simplicity's sake, we can likely safely assume we're raising (or going to raise) our children similarly.

Where this conversation gets interesting is when discussing kids who have never hunted, or at least never duck hunted. The majority of people I try to take are folks who've never shot a duck, much less gone through the joys of a rough morning on the marsh. Kids who, as stated before, would rather 'be shooting zombies on their Playstation'. These are the people who will turn the tide of decreasing hunter numbers and the perceived value of hunting in our society. Not our kids, they should be a given. But the kids who we're trying to bring into the sport from left field. I took two different kids on the youth hunt this past year; one had never hunted, the other had sat in the deer blind with his dad a couple times. Both completed hunter's safety within a month of the youth opener, and both were only interested because of that stupid Duck Dynasty show. 

As has been said, it can be tough to i.d. birds on most days, let alone when you're trying to keep an eye on a kid, his dad, where the gun is, how far the bird is, how the birds are reacting, etc. For these complete rookies, I fail to see the problem with letting them shoot a bit extra for two days (realistically one day, odds are they won't be able to hunt both). Whoever is taking them can still call the shots and help them i.d. birds before firing. If a kid has more experience, there's nothing stopping you from encouraging them to follow the same limits the adults do.

To sum up, for kids who have had exposure to waterfowling, I fully agree with having a self-imposed restricted limit. For a kid who has never tried duck hunting, I see nothing wrong with letting them have a fun, safe day of shooting and teaching them as they go. IMO, anyone who thinks that two days of shooting an unrestricted 6 bird limit is going to ruin these kids forever is kidding themselves. I would gladly take that risk, if it meant getting more fringe kids interested in a fun day in the marsh, which at the end of the day, is what it's all about.


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## Tron322 (Oct 29, 2011)

SBE II said:


> No, same unrealistic idea as raising minimum wage, those that don't want to train themselves don't deserve a freebie or special treatment.
> 
> Just because I'm colorblind they're not going to change the bag limit for me, I have no issues Identifying drakes, it's called having experience, and being taught restraint by my father.
> 
> The only reason for raising the bag limit to 2 hens should be to support biological data. Fact



sorry SBE I tried reading thru all the posts like I like to do and although we agreed yesterday that You and I both acquired a love for the outdoors regardless of any harvest or not you cut deep there.


how can you compare the raising of minimum wage to shooting hen mallards?


I am sure I am late in getting involved here but here is what I remember, I was working for 5,25 an hour in 2005 before minimum wage was raised to 7.80 or whatever it was. I chose to move into a different area and become assistant supervisor for 9.25.


minimum wage raised and I couldn't afford anything, everybody raised the prices so things evened out, so I was set up just the same as I was before the minmum wage was raised almost ten years ago.


if they raise the limit on ducks or hen mallards in general eating out, movie tickets, groceries, generl merchandise will not rise one penny.


I am sure the gas prices will rise for some stupid reason related to the take of hen mallards.


now as for the youth season.


A few vulnerable species should stay the same, redheads or canvasbacks, etc. birds we really don't see in September.


everthing else have fun kids and love it.


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## Tron322 (Oct 29, 2011)

field-n-feathers said:


> Exactly. They shouldn't. Making the rules easier for them is like giving a kid a trophy just for participating. Both equally stupid.


its called soccer or soccer, not sure but from what I saw (my GF played it ten years ago) everybody was the winner!! YAY!!


along with a bunch of other stuff the sport will die with us with an attitude like that, we got to think how to win with so many other distractions.


Personally I hate eating grocery store meat, so I am good now. lots of meat in my two freezers thanks to mother nature and my urge to eat wild meat. but around june and july I start craving wild game, store bought gives me stomach aches and gets me sick (chicken and beef mostly, not so much pork)


but how many other hunters, or youth for that manner have the same weak stomach wanting all natural meat?


gotta compete or a lot of my marshes will just be me in 30 or 40 years while your grandkids are playing grand theft auto 10 at 5 in the morning.


every little bit helps get a lot of youth involved, I am an anomaly in this day. fast and furious and kill everything will be a good base for a lot of youth to build on and teach ethics.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i really don't care how many of what kind of bird they can shoot on youth weekend. It can be 1 bird or 6 birds. I do know that one of those answers will retain more hunters than the other answer.
> 
> 6 ducks is 6 ducks on youth weekend. usually its teal or woodies so i don't even care what they decide, it will have 0 impact on the birds, the answer could have huge impact on the kids tho.
> 
> I spend more time trying to ID and call the shot for the youth during our hunts that it does kinda put a crimp on the hunt...sure would be to just tell them/help them call the shot on them tho with a liberal bag setup.


I am in complete agreement with you on this one. So I guess hell can freeze over. Wait, I think it did this winter.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

Tron322 said:


> sorry SBE I tried reading thru all the posts like I like to do and although we agreed yesterday that You and I both acquired a love for the outdoors regardless of any harvest or not you cut deep there.
> 
> 
> how can you compare the raising of minimum wage to shooting hen mallards?
> ...


It's pretty simple, I was using an analogy to indicate that we do not need to just give something in hopes that it will make something better. IDC if the limit is raised, but it should be based on science, not because of youth interest or whatever it may be. That is all..


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## cooner_jeff (Mar 21, 2006)

field-n-feathers said:


> Exactly. They shouldn't. Making the rules easier for them is like giving a kid a trophy just for participating. Both equally stupid.


 
^^lol. Trophies when they get back to the launch. :lol:


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

WoW. said:


> fun and gun safety.
> 
> 
> Ok, that doesn't include killing unless you advocate teaching kids that they have to be killing to have fun.
> ...


 
I think that identification of waterfowl is so much a part of the sport that you probably should leave it be. I still have to ask guys what the birds are at times and often have to pass cause I am not very good at it (don't hunt ducks often enough) That being said, what is wrong with a Dad helping a child harvest a deer by placing it in a rest to keep the kid away from a run to the ER for stitches? Amazing the "I never had a youth hunt so they shouldnt either" mentality. Aren't you more concerned that kid might shoot "your trophy buck"?

Ganzer


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

My biggest concern with allowing the kiddo's to have a 6 duck(any duck) limit for the youth weekend, would be the ones that are taken out and daddy does the shooting. We all know that some of that has to be happening seeing as the last few years early goose season has been going on during the youth hunt.

Here is my rationale:
Dad takes a junior out, that isn't a good shot, and decides to shoot junor's ducks for him.
Current regulations: only one hen mallard would be killed without junior getting in trouble as long as he doesn't blab that dad shot the duck.
6 Duck limit(any ducks): Potentially 6 hen mallards could be killed without junior getting in trouble as long as he doesn't blab that dad shot the duck.

If the kiddo is a killer, the ducks will be killed no matter what, if the kid is a misser the ducks will be missed(scared to death lol) unless dad decides to shoot them, then 6 ducks that would have only been scared have been killed.

I know some will argue that the affects may be minimal. However, IF my brother and I were the shoot juniors ducks type, and the limit was 6 ducks(any duck) we could have gone out last year and potentially shot 24 hen mallards.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

You can't make rules for the .1% that would violate them.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

TSS Caddis said:


> You can't make rules for the .1% that would violate them.




And you shouldn't make rules for hunters that figure if it is brown it is down.


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## Dahmer (Jan 22, 2007)

goosemanrdk said:


> My biggest concern with allowing the kiddo's to have a 6 duck(any duck) limit for the youth weekend, would be the ones that are taken out and daddy does the shooting. We all know that some of that has to be happening seeing as the last few years early goose season has been going on during the youth hunt.
> 
> Here is my rationale:
> Dad takes a junior out, that isn't a good shot, and decides to shoot junor's ducks for him.
> ...


This is what you are worried about? Your against this because your afraid dads going to shoot six hen mallards for junior. Give me a break! If someone is going to violate they are going to violate no matter if it is one hen or six hens. I've been water fowling for 32 years now.. I never had a youth season and I have no issue with having kids shoot 6 hens on the 2 day season. We need to do all we can do to get kids envoled in hunting and stick with it, Like or not these kids are going to be the ones to carry on the tradition.


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

MERGANZER said:


> That being said, what is wrong with a Dad helping a child harvest a deer by placing it in a rest to keep the kid away from a run to the ER for stitches? Amazing the "I never had a youth hunt so they shouldnt either" mentality. Aren't you more concerned that kid might shoot "your trophy buck"?
> 
> Ganzer






What is wrong with a Dad setting a kid up to shoot a gun that he is not physically ready to shoot yet?


If I had my druthers, the youth hunt would be antlerless only and it has nothing to do with your suggestion that my concern is with ownership of trophy bucks.


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## zx10r2004 (Sep 24, 2005)

I say don't change the rules for the youths if you do lower it to 2 ducks! To me It's not about killing ducks it's about getting them out there,teaching them safety,learning to call, learning to ID ducks,what not to do,what to do, and have fun even if you don't get anything.Killing more ducks is not going get the kids more involved. It's hunters like us that have taken our kids or took the neighbors kid or mentor a kid that will keep kids interested in hunting. Shooting a duck is just a bonus!!!


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

zx10r2004 said:


> I say don't change the rules for the youths if you do lower it to 2 ducks! To me It's not about killing ducks it's about getting them out there,teaching them safety,learning to call, learning to ID ducks,what not to do,what to do, and have fun even if you don't get anything.Killing more ducks is not going get the kids more involved. It's hunters like us that have taken our kids or took the neighbors kid or mentor a kid that will keep kids interested in hunting. Shooting a duck is just a bonus!!!






Now* that* proposal I can buy. And your logic makes perfect sense regarding the purpose of going afield.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Dahmer said:


> This is what you are worried about? Your against this because your afraid dads going to shoot six hen mallards for junior. Give me a break! If someone is going to violate they are going to violate no matter if it is one hen or six hens. I've been water fowling for 32 years now.. I never had a youth season and I have no issue with having kids shoot 6 hens on the 2 day season. We need to do all we can do to get kids envoled in hunting and stick with it, Like or not these kids are going to be the ones to carry on the tradition.


Never said I was against it. Just stated a major concern that I personally have. Sorry I said anything. Please tell me what my opinion should be and what my concerns should be, since I am apparently not allowed to have them.

FYI: I am all for it and have been from the moment it was mentioned. Just tied to mention the concern that I had arrise within myself and could see those who are against it using.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

WoW. said:


> And you shouldn't make rules for hunters that figure if it is brown it is down.


No one proposed that.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

zx10r2004 said:


> I say don't change the rules for the youths if you do lower it to 2 ducks! To me It's not about killing ducks it's about getting them out there,teaching them safety,learning to call, learning to ID ducks,what not to do,what to do, and have fun even if you don't get anything.Killing more ducks is not going get the kids more involved. It's hunters like us that have taken our kids or took the neighbors kid or mentor a kid that will keep kids interested in hunting. Shooting a duck is just a bonus!!!


That logic leads regular season to a 2 bird limit also. Hell, let's just have a zero bird limit and call it bird watching.


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## zx10r2004 (Sep 24, 2005)

TSS Caddis said:


> That logic leads regular season to a 2 bird limit also. Hell, let's just have a zero bird limit and call it bird watching.


I guess you missed the point!!


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

TSS Caddis said:


> You can't make rules for the .1% that would violate them.


Do you have numbers to support that this is the percentage that violate on the youth weekend. I agree that we should not make rules for a small percent that would violate, but how does one know that what I proposed in only happening in a small percent. Hence why I stated my concern, to have it out as part of the conversation and possibly get it addressed as not be of anything to be concerned about. 

Lets say there are 2000 kids out on the youth hunt. Using your number then only 2 have dad's that are violating as I mentioned. They way the concern about dad's has been brought up in the past,(here and even at CWAC) I am inclined to think it could be more along the lines of 20 out of that 2000, so 1%. Or worse yet 100 out of the 2000, so 5%. Or even horibbly worse 200 out of the 2000, so 10%.

Again, I just stated it as a CONCERN, not as my opinion of the option or as something that should kill the discussion.

Go ahead fire away at me and tell me what my opinion should be in the matter and how invalid my personal concerns are about the subject. I am eager to hear what I should be thinking and feeling.

FYI Gene: My sarcasim in this is not directed at you, but the overall mood of the thread, so PLEASE do not take it personally. Stating a CONCERN for discusion and then getting pinned as being against the idea(which is totally opposite of my stance from the get go) has me a little ornery about this thread right now.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

I'm against taking into account if someone might violate it before making a rule. The numbers really don't matter


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

TSS Caddis said:


> I'm against taking into account if someone might violate it before making a rule. The numbers really don't matter


I can understand and respect that.

Unfortunately I work daily with having to evaluate risk vs benefit, hence my personal stance of thinking risk(violation effect on the resource) vs benefit(youth fun and retention) and that the numbers "could" matter(to me anyways). 
Hopefully you can understand and respect that as well.


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## duckbuster2 (Aug 14, 2008)

There shouldn't be a youth weekend. If the only time the kid gets to hunt is on that weekend, what's the point? They need to hunt during the regular season every weekend to get into hunting. No matter what, the rules need to be the same for everyone. If you want kids to hunt when the weather is better, have an early teal season for everyone.


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## Bigeejakes (Nov 11, 2011)

Sorry but this post is just awful.... Seriously, tell kids it's ok, you don't have to follow the same rules? 

Not only that, but am I the only one who still feels like it is wrong for kids under the age of 12 to be caring a loaded firearm through the woods? 

Don't get me wrong, take the little kids with you, get them excited, but jeez- most kids that age I am scared to be around while they have a baseball bat, let alone a rifle or shotgun.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

Jake you make a very good point on age limits. Goose, I have to think that most people are going to try to show their kids and other youths the right way instead of shooting all the ducks themselves or deer. Just seems like it would be a low percentage that would do that.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Coldwater Charters said:


> Jake you make a very good point on age limits. Goose, I have to think that most people are going to try to show their kids and other youths the right way instead of shooting all the ducks themselves or deer. Just seems like it would be a low percentage that would do that.


I agree 100%. I just know that when I was on cwac it was brought up several times, especially when youth weekend got moved to co-inside with the last weekend of early goose. Even though I personally think very little of it happens, the way it has been talked about in my presence or from deer hunters in the deer forum, does make me have a moment of pause and wonder how much it actually happens. Those that claim it is happening a lot might know something I don't. Again I just had some concern, that if it was happening a lot, when going from existing rules where a dad and junior could walk out with only 1 hen mallard in the bag and not get busted unless caught in the act of dad shooting, to being able to walk out with 6. But apparently I am the bad guy for thinking up a concern and then voicing it in a discussion. Guess I can't "discuss."


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Bigeejakes said:


> Sorry but this post is just awful.... Seriously, tell kids it's ok, you don't have to follow the same rules?


What are the rules for mentored youth in APR zones during youth deer season?


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## Urriah (Jul 26, 2013)

In regards to the 'dads shooting junior's ducks/deer' concept, if more people would call the RAP line on people like that, then there'd be less of it going on. 

Alternatively, not all that much actually goes on and people are bellyaching about a strawman. I understand that (a lot of) violating happens, especially when it comes to ducks, but I think this would be an extremely small percentage of the infractions. I understand why some would have this concern, but I personally think it's negligible.

I hate the youth deer argument though. Ask anyone who makes that argument about dad shooting the deer and hardly any will be able to give you a firm example of it happening. Of those that can, even less will have actually reported it.


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## Urriah (Jul 26, 2013)

As to proper age for when a kid should be able to hunt, I think it should be the parent's discretion, which is what the mentored program allows. 

Personally, I studied for, and passed, the hunter's safety exam at age 7. Obviously it didn't count, but it happened. I was also bigger than most kids my age and could handle a larger weapon than say a .22 or a BB gun. That being said, I can't imagine my niece/nephews carrying a weapon afield right now, but they have been raised completely differently than I was.


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## Mr. 16 gauge (Jan 26, 2000)

> Not only that, but am I the only one who still feels like it is wrong for kids under the age of 12 to be caring a loaded firearm through the woods?


No, you're not. Maybe we can lower the driving age to 12....or whenever their feet can reach the pedals. Then they can drive themselves to school, soccer practice, etc. 
Yep.....let the parents decide! Even if half the parents out there have no clue as to what is going on with their little darlings; for they can do no wrong. Sure makes me feel safer.............
Passing hunter safety is one thing; carrying a loaded firearm is another.....they are NOT one in the same. and while there are some adults out there who don't have the maturity to carry a firearm responsibly, I don't think ANY 10 year old (yes, even your little darling) possess the maturity to do so.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Plenty of states have no age restrictions on hunting. Guys at work have their kids killing deer at 5/6 years old. This of course is in the south. I had to start hunting in Ohio because of the age restrictions in Michigan. I started at 8. I duck hunted in Arkansas with two 9 year olds that handler their guns better then most adults. I see zero reason for any age restriction for youth hunting when accompanied by an adult. 

With that being said I don't think youths should have special
Bag limits. We all got by just fine with standard bag limits, why can't they? Identifying birds on the wing is a huge part of waterfowl hunting.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

How did this discussion morph into a debate about the legal minimum age to carry a firearm? Wasn't that completely and exhaustingly debated 2 or 3 years ago when the law was changed? That discussion has washed over the dam...under the bridge...is 10 feet under now. Back to the OP about bag limits please


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

I was responding to the prior post. I have not been on here in a while and have not read all 6 pages.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Mr. 16 gauge said:


> No, you're not. Maybe we can lower the driving age to 12....or whenever their feet can reach the pedals. Then they can drive themselves to school, soccer practice, etc.
> Yep.....let the parents decide! Even if half the parents out there have no clue as to what is going on with their little darlings; for they can do no wrong. Sure makes me feel safer.............
> Passing hunter safety is one thing; carrying a loaded firearm is another.....they are NOT one in the same. and while there are some adults out there who don't have the maturity to carry a firearm responsibly, I don't think ANY 10 year old (yes, even your little darling) possess the maturity to do so.


 
I nominate this for the most ridiculous post so far for 2014! Obviously you dont have kids or haven't been around kids much. The reason it is up to the parents on when they are ready is because maturity levels vary so much as kids grow. Thats why the rule is you have to be within an arms reach of the chiuld so you can oversee whats happening. My "little darling" 10 year old has taken deer, squirrels and quite a few rabbits along with dozens of starlings etc. I have seen hunters of all ages and I don't paint with a wide brush saying 50 something men and women shouldn't hunt because of the idiots I saw on state land dropping beer cans as they walked by. My "little darling" is a lot safer with a firearm than they were.

Ganzer


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## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

Let's keep on track here folks. I think both mergy and Mr 16 have valid points. Kids today do not hear no enough. And some parents like Mergy do take the extra time to prepare their children. Back on the topics subject now.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

I love the youth hunts for deer and waterfowl. I have always been for them and would be for more of them in the future. These hunts allow for 100% focus to be all about the kids and the future of the sports we want to promote. With the season being so early I can appreciate the identification issues. I kind of like the option of saying 2 or 3 bird limit for the youth hunt and its any ducks within the limit. These are children trying to break into our sport that we love because they want to see if they love it and they want to be outside with thier fathers, mother, uncles and other mentors. Its embarrassing to me for the hunting community to say "I never had a youth hunt they dont need one" "there were no special rules for me" "they can learn to hunt the way I did or don't hunt". Come on folks..........They just want to be like you Dad.

Ganzer


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Coldwater Charters said:


> Let's keep on track here folks. I think both mergy and Mr 16 have valid points. Kids today do not hear no enough. And some parents like Mergy do take the extra time to prepare their children. Back on the topics subject now.


Thank you. I think the original idea of this thread was kids today need extra convincing in order to either get into, or continue, hunting, fishing and various other outdoor activities. The point is we're losing kids to these sports. I don't know of many kids who need convincing to start driving...we aren't losing teenage drivers that I'm aware of....Apples and oranges comparison.


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> Thank you. I think the original idea of this thread was kids today need extra convincing in order to either get into, or continue, hunting, fishing and various other outdoor activities. The point is we're losing kids to these sports. I don't know of many kids who need convincing to start driving...we aren't losing teenage drivers that I'm aware of....Apples and oranges comparison.


I think you missed his analogy. Don't sacrifice something for the sake of thinking you're going to create more interest.

The problem isn't the kids or bag limits, it's the parents.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> ..The problem isn't the kids or bag limits, it's the parents.


IMO the parents are part of the equation, but it's not just the current crop of parents, it's our culture nowadays. Our culture encourages people to sit in front of the tube, or at the computer, instead of going outdoors. So that's not just the parents fault, it's OUR fault  Generations of people have never been in the outdoors, on a farm, on a lake, etc. etc. Why should anyone be surprised?


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

My oldest daughter has no interest in hunting anymore. She had a lot of interest when she was young. She would go with me and sit with my and always want to go fishing with Dad. She wanted to shoot a deer so bad but she was not old enough. (hindsight I should have let her shoot and use my tags but I wanted to teach her what was right according to the law) The rifle age was lowered to 12 and I took her out and I was excited to be able to watch her do what she had been asking to do since she was 8. We went out, and hour passed and a group of doe's came out 160 yards out. She asked if she could shoot I nodded she shot deer whent down all that quickly. I was so excited and hugging her etc. She was happy but not on cloud nine. We went back to the cabin snapped some photo's and that was the last time she has hunted with me. She was 12 then and she turns 17 this summer. My point is, hook them when they are young! She wanted to be a hunter not a daughter who watched Dad hunt. By the time it was legal for her to hunt she had already been hooked by other interest (volleyball, track, school basketball and AAU travel basketball) Those were her passions and she just brushed away the whole hunting thing. Thats why I feel it so great parents decide whats right. My son is a hunter for life I can already see that. Just my personal experience and opinion. Get em young, keep em forever.

Ganzer


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

MERGANZER said:


> My oldest daughter has no interest in hunting anymore. She had a lot of interest when she was young. She would go with me and sit with my and always want to go fishing with Dad. She wanted to shoot a deer so bad but she was not old enough. (hindsight I should have let her shoot and use my tags but I wanted to teach her what was right according to the law) The rifle age was lowered to 12 and I took her out and I was excited to be able to watch her do what she had been asking to do since she was 8. We went out, and hour passed and a group of doe's came out 160 yards out. She asked if she could shoot I nodded she shot deer whent down all that quickly. I was so excited and hugging her etc. She was happy but not on cloud nine. We went back to the cabin snapped some photo's and that was the last time she has hunted with me. She was 12 then and she turns 17 this summer. My point is, hook them when they are young! She wanted to be a hunter not a daughter who watched Dad hunt. By the time it was legal for her to hunt she had already been hooked by other interest (volleyball, track, school basketball and AAU travel basketball) Those were her passions and she just brushed away the whole hunting thing. Thats why I feel it so great parents decide whats right. My son is a hunter for life I can already see that. Just my personal experience and opinion. Get em young, keep em forever.
> 
> Ganzer


man that is exactly...almost identical to my sons hunting interest, lost him about 13'ish to hockey, video games, girls etc.. 

its hard nowadays for sure.

i don't think age restrictions should be managed by anyone except the parents. 

anything that can help keep a kid involved or help their interest should be explored.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Well she has gone out hunting since with her boyfriend lol. I don't get it. When I was a kid I was in the woods along the Bad ariver and Wolf Creek from sun up to sun down with pellet guns or bowfishing etc. I never wanted to be inside.

Ganzer


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

MERGANZER said:


> My oldest daughter has no interest in hunting anymore. She had a lot of interest when she was young. She would go with me and sit with my and always want to go fishing with Dad. She wanted to shoot a deer so bad but she was not old enough. (hindsight I should have let her shoot and use my tags but I wanted to teach her what was right according to the law) The rifle age was lowered to 12 and I took her out and I was excited to be able to watch her do what she had been asking to do since she was 8. We went out, and hour passed and a group of doe's came out 160 yards out. She asked if she could shoot I nodded she shot deer whent down all that quickly. I was so excited and hugging her etc. She was happy but not on cloud nine. We went back to the cabin snapped some photo's and that was the last time she has hunted with me. She was 12 then and she turns 17 this summer. My point is, hook them when they are young! She wanted to be a hunter not a daughter who watched Dad hunt. By the time it was legal for her to hunt she had already been hooked by other interest (volleyball, track, school basketball and AAU travel basketball) Those were her passions and she just brushed away the whole hunting thing. Thats why I feel it so great parents decide whats right. My son is a hunter for life I can already see that. Just my personal experience and opinion. Get em young, keep em forever.
> 
> Ganzer




Both my kids were involved young. My daughter hunted with me and climbed trees w/ me until about the age of perfume. I actually asked her if she was wearing perfume. She had great potential, could draw better than a 40lb bow with ease at 12 because she was in good shape.


But, athletic interests were too intense and hunting pretty much took a backseat to being All State for four years in two sports.


Even my son spread thin when he got involved in travel hockey.


That's just the way it goes and killing a bunch of brown ducks or bean eating bucks has nothing to do with it.


Now my son lives in Wyoming and gets his share of trigger time. My dear daughter lives in southern California but, wants me to take venison and fish to the wedding this spring in S. Carolina. 


When you teach kids that the outdoors is all about killing for success, then in my opinion, you have taught them in a manner that they cannot fully appreciate all that the outdoors has to offer.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Killing is not hunting and thats not what I am saying at all. But they do need that rush of a deers approach or cupped wing ducks coming to the dekes. Do they need to get a limit to get hooked? No absolutely not. I tell my son all the time when we are having a slow day "it's hunting son, not killing" he gets that now after successful seasons and unsuccessful seasons. Thats why I try to teach him something new everytime out. Maybe someday my oldest will surprise me and say Daddy, lets go hunting!" Who knows one more year of high school left for her and things may settle down. Can only hope!

Ganzer


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## LoBrass (Oct 16, 2007)

Awesome!!

Now that we all agree, someone please take this to the CWAC meeting and suggest we push for an open bag of 6 ducks for the 2 days of the youth hunt!!:chillin:

Thank you for your time.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

LoBrass said:


> Awesome!!
> 
> Now that we all agree, someone please take this to the CWAC meeting and suggest we push for an open bag of 6 ducks for the 2 days of the youth hunt!!:chillin:
> 
> Thank you for your time.


We all know the Feds will never let his happen.

But it is interesting to see the conversation go the same way it does in the deer forum for youth seasons and rules. 90% of the arguments come down to people not liking youths being able to do something they can not do or were not allowed to do at the same age.

Interesting that the youth topic has never been an issue in the Turkey Forum with youths under the mentored hunting license being able to hunt any season.


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## stackemup (Oct 31, 2011)

I can't speak to the success of other's youth hunt experience, but I know all about my 3 boys. When each one bagged their first bird it didn't matter if it was 1 or a limit. The whole hunting experience is what my kids love the most.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

LoBrass said:


> Awesome!!
> 
> Now that we all agree, someone please take this to the CWAC meeting and suggest we push for an open bag of 6 ducks for the 2 days of the youth hunt!!:chillin:
> 
> Thank you for your time.


Yeah I'm not holding my breath for this to be brought up by any of the CWAC members Saturday. I could be wrong....NOT :evilsmile


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

just ducky said:


> IMO the parents are part of the equation, but it's not just the current crop of parents, it's our culture nowadays. Our culture encourages people to sit in front of the tube, or at the computer, instead of going outdoors. So that's not just the parents fault, it's OUR fault  Generations of people have never been in the outdoors, on a farm, on a lake, etc. etc. Why should anyone be surprised?


Umm hello JD who's allowing the kids to be this way?


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## SBE II (Jan 13, 2009)

MERGANZER said:


> My oldest daughter has no interest in hunting anymore. She had a lot of interest when she was young. She would go with me and sit with my and always want to go fishing with Dad. She wanted to shoot a deer so bad but she was not old enough. (hindsight I should have let her shoot and use my tags but I wanted to teach her what was right according to the law) The rifle age was lowered to 12 and I took her out and I was excited to be able to watch her do what she had been asking to do since she was 8. We went out, and hour passed and a group of doe's came out 160 yards out. She asked if she could shoot I nodded she shot deer whent down all that quickly. I was so excited and hugging her etc. She was happy but not on cloud nine. We went back to the cabin snapped some photo's and that was the last time she has hunted with me. She was 12 then and she turns 17 this summer. My point is, hook them when they are young! She wanted to be a hunter not a daughter who watched Dad hunt. By the time it was legal for her to hunt she had already been hooked by other interest (volleyball, track, school basketball and AAU travel basketball) Those were her passions and she just brushed away the whole hunting thing. Thats why I feel it so great parents decide whats right. My son is a hunter for life I can already see that. Just my personal experience and opinion. Get em young, keep em forever.
> 
> Ganzer


If I had to bet you will get her back in her mid 20's. This is common, this is why I don't believe the slacking numbers. Kids have a lot going on in their lives with extracurricular activities, heck I did. But my Dad always found time for us to get out and hunt. I don't care if you give unlimited ducks, stretch a youth season, or even do away with the youth season. The number won't change..


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

SBE II said:


> Umm hello JD who's allowing the kids to be this way?


I'm not a parent, but I'm waiting for the parents of the world to jump your ass! Not necessarily disagreeing, but there's a huge uphill battle for parents to deal with nowadays.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

Seasons just ended for my kids and we have a little rest before spring sports but the past few months have been.

Monday- oldest practice after school, middle child game, youngest practice

Tuesday- Oldests game, middle child practice.

wednesday- oldest practice, middle child game

Thursday- all three practice

Friday- Oldest game, middle child practice

Saturday- coaching youngest games.

Sunday- get stuff done you didnt have time to get done the rest of the week and maybe just maybe get the boy out for a hunt.

Its not easy but nobody said it was going to be. I am glad my kids are athletic and interested in the outdoors as well.

Ganzer


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## WoW. (Aug 11, 2011)

just ducky said:


> I'm not a parent, but I'm waiting for the rparents of the world to jump your ass! Not necessarily disagreeing, but there's a huge uphill battle for parents to deal with nowadays.



The kicker is, parents today are NOT the parents of yesteryear.


Today, parents are more concerned about sending kids off to kid sitters (school, athletics, dance, the computer) so they don't have to perform the arduous task of being a parent.


So, when we leave the upbringing to somebody else, who else do we have to blame?


The flip side of parenting today is....it is all too often acceptable to blame somebody else for parental failures.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

WoW. said:


> Today, parents are more concerned about sending kids off to kid sitters (school, athletics, dance, the computer) so they don't have to perform the arduous task of being a parent.


Dumbest post ever.

Having all your kids in sports, having them still get good grades and be good well behaved kids is hardly sending them off to "kid sitters". 

My kids are well behaved, smart, responsible and they enjoy the outdoors. There is no reason for them to wait to hunt if I'm willing to sacrifice my hunting to mentor them.


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