# River Flows on Manistee and Muskegon Rivers similar problems to the Ausable!!!



## bigfisherman (Nov 9, 2007)

Well it looks like consimers ran a few test years over on the east side and now they are trying it over on the west side. We have been watching the flows this fall just scratching our heads and they have continued to tip there hand lately with such extreme changes it is nearly laughable. I know we will get the same excussions they got on the east side but I know the hydrology of this area very well and there is not a remotely decent explaination for the river flows being manipulated they way they have been recently. 

This is probly more of a big deal than most of the issues we have all been concerned with lately.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

I work outside and follow weather very closely.... I also own two drift boats and love to river fish. I must say that I believe we have had six months of below average rain fall, then throw the freeze up in there and - well... no water moving out of the drainage areas that create the flow in these rivers and you get low water levels. I am not saying there is not a problem with Govt. officialls not enforcing agreements regarding the flow of the rivers, because there is. To me it looks like a prolonged period of below normal rain fall !


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## Ron Matthews (Aug 10, 2006)

Yes it's been dry-
That's why operations at these hydros' are More important Right Now more than ever..

This is a 40yr.license agreement!

I've been told that MMAC - The Manistee, Muskegon, Au Sable Coordination team will have this issue on the agenda for January meeting.

Rules are not followed-
Time travel adjustments
percent of flow changes 
accretion values
Flat ponds- zero headwater height without a criteria for discharge
Storing of water for peak operations 
I can't even think of all the issue lately

RIGHT NOW is the time to express your feelings on operations on these systems, timing couldn't be better.
Contact Gary!!

DNR has told us that Mo, and the Big- Never see the fluctuations that Foote dam see's Because they are REAL run of river operations. The facilities associated hold enough storage that the Au Sable could never see the stability of the west side systems.
That's why Foote has re-regulated flows...



bigfisherman said:


> This is probly more of a big deal than most of the issues we have all been concerned with lately.


I couldn't agree more- The Au Sable is so abused right now with flows the fishing doesn't matter- THERE"S NO FISH to chase?


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

Listen to Ron guys, dude knows what he speaks. Consumers energy has basically killed off the winter steelhead fishery on the Au Sable. There was a stretch of fishing from late December 2007-mid January 2008 that was some very consistent fishing, these are a few examples of what we were getting with proper flows:


























































This is not a show off post with the pics, it's a small sampling of what COULD be on the AS during winter, if they'd give the river some water and maintain it. This is how it USED TO BE, before they started the current BS. The fishing was pretty slow that year, until they ran the river at around 1100 for a couple weeks straight, starting in mid December, with NO fluctuations. The river did go up with the usual late December/early January thaw, but the fishing stayed steady. My buddy and I averaged a solid 5 fish from shore during that streak, but then it got colder and consumers dropped the river way down and the bite went down with it.


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## bigfisherman (Nov 9, 2007)

METTLEFISH said:


> I work outside and follow weather very closely.... I also own two drift boats and love to river fish. I must say that I believe we have had six months of below average rain fall, then throw the freeze up in there and - well... no water moving out of the drainage areas that create the flow in these rivers and you get low water levels. I am not saying there is not a problem with Govt. officialls not enforcing agreements regarding the flow of the rivers, because there is. To me it looks like a prolonged period of below normal rain fall !


Well I have to disagree I am not talking about low water I am talking about use of the water they have. The flows are being used to maximize production no question. Tippy is a prime example look at dec 20 to 23 look the time they decrease the flow happens same time each day the time it bumps up mmmm same time too. When does industry need power 9-4? when are they saving there water for mmm 9-4. This doesn't follow any natural rythems look at sherman above hDpyl look at HS on the Pine flat line..... Look at the manistee graph for the past 120 days it is near laughable I would not look at that and say that appears to be one of the most stable stream flows in the entire world (which the manistee is one of the top stable large systems in the world) nope I would say that look like a fairly flahsy stream especially if I compaired it to the weather as you suggust. many unexplained peaks and valleys and way too close to each other. 1700 to 900 then back in a 3 day period...then back down to 1200 then back to 1500 then back see a pattern here. 

I am not guessing at this I know what the weather is, what the stream flows are, should be, where they will be based on saturation levels and when and where peaking should and does happens. That is my job I watch it on the computer and in reality everyday.....


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Just think how low it would be if there was not a "resevoir" to draw from, they release what they need and adjust for coming events. I believe they are supposed to follow for twenty four hour periods, so, in reality they are in compliance with the agreement (s) by volume not flow. Take a drive up into the drainage area and see how much flow is in the creeks right now, not much, typical for winter conditions, that also being exacerbated by a prolonged period of below normal precipitation and well...you get low water until rain or snow melt. Seems to me that period of release is when ya auta be fishin !....


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## RIVER LADY (Jun 13, 2005)

You are not guessing and you are not seeing things. They are being Morinc idiots just like the guys on the East side. If you don't express your feelings now, the west side rivers will be in the same condition as the Au Sable. Friggin Dead!!! :rant:

Speak up, hound Consumers and keep complaing and making a rukous until something is done. Email them constantly let then know they are being watched. Voice your concerns to the DNR. 

Ron has been fighting for the East side for some years now and has actually made some progress. So, words and pictures go a long way. Dont be affraid to speak up and if you see the abuse take a pic, it's priceless!!! Then be sure and send the pic to every local newspaper and post it on every website you can think of. 

Sooner or later we'll get a response. This is BS and I for one have intentions of putting up with it. 

Dang Consumers ran me off over on the east side and forced me to go the west side. Now they want to kill that too?? 

I don't think so JERKS!!!!

Ok, I feel a little better now that I got that off my chest.:lol:


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

River Lady, what is the status of the bubblers on the big Manistee ?....


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## Ron Matthews (Aug 10, 2006)

METTLEFISH said:


> in reality they are in compliance with the agreement (s) by volume not flow.


You work for cp don't ya?
Sure sounds like it-:smile-mad
I've heard double talk like that before. There's more than one way to get the same results, Our fishery shouldn't be a byproduct of hydro operations.
It should be managed for natural resource First- [way more benefits]


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## RIVER LADY (Jun 13, 2005)

METTLEFISH said:


> River Lady, what is the status of the bubblers on the big Manistee ?....


:lol: OMG I offended you didn't I? Sorry if I did but, unfortunatley, it still won't shut me up!!

I don't watch the data daily I don't have time. I have others that are much more knowledgeable to that for me. I have been a die hard steelheader for over 20 years and I don't take kindly to anyone screwing it up and CP is screwing it up....again. First on the Au Sable and now the West side. I don't think so and I will not stand for it. I will continue to cause a rukous until a friggin Suit is brought again them if that is what it takes and if that is what it takes....then so be it!!!!!! 

Now, would you like to know how I really feel? :lol:


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Actually no,.... landscape & Fishing Ind. .... I see all these efforts with no mention of local officials , starting with Twp. or Cnty. , what does the Drain Commisioner say ? , seems that you would be sure to contact State Reps. Etc., and request their help in these issues. I have worked with them on issues, and they always helped. I have read about & witnessed these same issues for decades now, with the same results. There are / were injunctions that go without enforcement, the Laws are very vague, hard to interpret and hard to enforce. Bottom line is a reservoir is just that !


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

RIVER LADY said:


> :lol: OMG I offended you didn't I? Sorry if I did but, unfortunatley, it still won't shut me up!!
> 
> I don't watch the data daily I don't have time. I have others that are much more knowledgeable to that for me. I have been a die hard steelheader for over 20 years and I don't take kindly to anyone screwing it up and CP is screwing it up....again. First on the Au Sable and now the West side. I don't think so and I will not stand for it. I will continue to cause a rukous until a friggin Suit is brought again them if that is what it takes and if that is what it takes....then so be it!!!!!!
> 
> Now, would you like to know how I really feel? :lol:


Throw in a few F bombs and that would be considered a perfect Hutch type post. 

My thoughts are the same--what they're doing at Croton is complete BS. And I don't want hear about "saving water" for this or that because they're not even using the turbines...they're using the damn flood gates which makes no sense what so ever. 

As for "volume"--my a**. There's no way in hell you can tell me that going from 1400cfs down to 700cfs then up to 1000cfs is releasing a consistent "volume" of water. BS. Either get it fixed or else it's gonna be time to get state reps involved. This has been going on at Croton for over two months and enough is enough.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Perhaps we can find the agreement on line and see verbatum what it says, the term "gray" comes to mind. I'd like to know more about the terms myself, do they have proof of repairs for alleged violations Etc. , It sure seems to me to be related to the below Avg. precipitation or at least exacerbated by it. As you've only been a Steelheader for 20 years you would not remember 1988 when the St. Joe was down to two small creeks on eihter side of the island about 20 feet across, ( WOW was it good fishin when they opened the gates), this year the Lake I live on was as low as it's been in my life because of below normal rain fall, I have'nt bothered going to the River because of no or very little freshets.


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## Ron Matthews (Aug 10, 2006)

Local officials? These dams are control by FERC! The DNR has no authority on what actually comes out of these dams, FERC enforces rules. 


It comes down to FLAT PONDS!
When the headwater height is "set" at zero any accretion in level above zero is released as increased flow.
When you fall back down to zero you loose flow..
If flows rise very quickly and are still gaining headwater, extra turbines are added to maintain a zero level in storage. when extra turbine is at too much volume to be maintained storage falls back to zero quickly and you get reduced flows, Sometimes Dramatically reduced flows because of over estimating incoming accretion... so you get fluctuating flows

Half the fuel burned at these facilities is to Just maintain headwater zero, I call it wasted-




METTLEFISH said:


> There are " guidelines" I'd guess you'd call them, That a License holder must try to maintain in order to meet the agreement.
> All I can do is try and prove my point to DNR with what I know or what I think I can prove either in predictions or photo's and try to help dnr move this issue forward because it not 1988??, I want improvements on a day in day out Basis. Nothing new for me and my kind... I have all those graphs shoved down my neck for yrs.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

FERC helps with attaining agreements, flow is to be what the watershed is experiencing, kinda like garbage in... garbage out. Are the flow rates based on averages ?... I would say no looking at what is being released, ever witnessed the draw down of Hodepile on the Big Manistee?, sure you have, according to Mark Dibenedetto it is to accommodate for spring snow melt.


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## Ron Matthews (Aug 10, 2006)

I'm a Steelheader, I don't chase trout so No, I usually fish lower Au Sable and Big river in early spring.

Yes there supposed to be, But when values are overshot or not included at ALL it causes more Dramatic adjustments before you get the" cleansing" and IT's all blown out and started again at the top storage facility, Then it's good for a bit.. Till it's overshoot and underestimated a few times then you get fluctuations AGAIN:rant:


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## Ron Matthews (Aug 10, 2006)

METTLEFISH said:


> FERC helps with attaining agreements


FERC Is the issuing agancy, MMAC is responsible for implementing Federal Energy Regulatory Commission 40 yr license issued in 1994. This team coordinates the license implementation process That hasn't really been followed or implemented very well the way I see it.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

And I would agree ! I also would say again - that we have had below normal precipitation over most of Michigan the past six months. Has anyone asked why the fluctuations ?....


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## Ron Matthews (Aug 10, 2006)

FLAT PONDS!


40 day's of our steelhead season on lower Au Sable!










It'd be easier to pull a back molar out of DNRs' collective head than to get reasoning of a run of river operation like that.

If you'd care to ask them yourself, pm me and I'll give you contact information- you seem tuned in?

40 day's at Manistee









40 days at Muskegon









bigfisherman said look at the pine?- 40 days!


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## herb09 (Jan 11, 2009)

*Merry Christmas everyone !!! And AS I remember when christmas used to look like that. God Bless and have a great season.*


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