# No Chocolate Ban for Bear Baiting



## Musket (May 11, 2009)

I do not agree with the NRC by not adopting the proposal of the DNR to ban the use of chocolate for bear baiting. It's not that big of a deal in giving it up. It's not like we have many other options and we need this valuable bait for bear hunting it's just the opposite, we do. The list for bear bait in Michigan is a very long one. 
Chocolate has been proven to be harmful to the point of fatal for bear's and it's use for baiting whether legal or not would be controversial at best. I applaud all who voluntarily give it up.

Musket


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

My friend use M&Ms all the time don't seem to bother the bears down there in the Smokey's. Perhaps Michigan bears are more sensitive please post a link to the study.


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## Jowdones (Feb 21, 2007)

I wouldn't use anything that makes my target animal sick. Even if it doesn't kill them it can have adverse health effects. I know a guy who will never use it again after the bears visiting his site that were eating chocolate started getting gastro-intestinal problems and leaving really nasty, smelly, Hersey's squirts everywhere.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Just another example of NRC incompetance. I will not use products containing chocolate.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

welldriller said:


> My friend use M&Ms all the time don't seem to bother the bears down there in the Smokey's. Perhaps Michigan bears are more sensitive please post a link to the study.


http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...Y_345925_7.pdf


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## Jowdones (Feb 21, 2007)

I am close to finishing A Master's Degree in Biology. Some of my earliest research reviews were on black bears. I have never come across any physiological differences between black bears. Why use chocolate with toxic compounds when they prefer so many other substances - bacon, donuts,anise,vanilla,frosting,dog food and molasses, bread, marsh mellows, popcorn,table scraps, raspberry gelatin,meat scraps,sugar,pizza,grease,little debbie, hostess,oats,beaver,old tortillas,cereal, my cats food, and anything in my frig or cupboard. Baiting with chocolate is irresponsible and shows lack of respect.I know I'll take heat for this , but once in awhile I have vent - sorry in advance.


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

Plenty of other options.

ATB


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

Personally we don't bait with chocolate. I was just saying my friends do they have not mentioned any ill affects on the bears. If there were I'm sure they would not use it.


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## wrenchman (Jun 23, 2003)

I have never yoused it but i neve thought about it either thanks for the info as to it being bad fo them.


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## Spartan88 (Nov 14, 2008)

I used a little in the past, but I wont from now on.


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

While not scientific we have baited for years with a mix of stuff, including chocolate, without issues. Most have other stuff in the pile & only a portion of the bait is chocolate. Yes, with I could see a problem with a good amount of 'bakers chocolate' & a small bear. Even if there was no dead bear visible they could walk off & expire. 

I just don't feel this issue needs to rise to the level of using any chocolate is irresponsible. They have done a good amount of studies in WI & chocolate is still a go. 

I could maybe see some reasonable limits on the % of chocolate in the pile if need be. That may be hard to enforce though. I just don't see a need for a complete ban of chocolate. JMHO


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## Bux-n-Dux (Dec 18, 2009)

Not a biologist, but I could imagine that a bear's anatomy is "fairly" close enough to a dog and every dog owner knows that chocolate is one of those foods you should never feed your dog. Just like most dogs, a bear will pretty much eat anything it can find whether it's good for them or not...but unlike your housepet that you see on an every day basis and can see how foods effect its system, no one would really see the day to day effects on wild bears. So how can some hunters make the statement that chocolate doesn't seem to effect these bears when you only see them occasionally? That bear could be off in the woods for 3-4 days sick without you ever knowing.

Anyways, I'll make sure that I personally lick the chocolate off every donut before putting them into the barrels from now on!!


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## Jowdones (Feb 21, 2007)

From a hunting standpoint I don't want my target to even get a stomach ache, or cramps, after feeding at my site. I want him full, happy, sugared up and wanting more.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

The chocolate issue has no impact on me either way, but what does alarm me is the lack of common sense exibited by the NRC. Now HSUS, PETA, or who ever else wants to attack bear baiting has an easy win knowing chocolate is a lethal poison to small animals and birds that frequent bait sites. At least MDNR's Wildlife Division had brains enough to understand where this could end up.


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## Steve White (Oct 8, 2009)

I'm still waiting for anyone to produce any scientific data. Where studies have been done to know what toxic levels of anything are on bear, or other wildlife. Since there is none It is all just pure speculation as to what is or is not toxic, and at what level. 

Really, by the same token. For what it matters. Any and all type of sweets should be banned as well. Since higher levels of sugar is known to cause diabetes, and cavities. In other animals. So why would you want to put anything out that could cause a problem. 

This also means no watering stations either. Since if too much water is drunk it can kill as well.

Lots of speculations on things can be made real easy. Without any real scientific facts to support them. It is nothing more than speculation.

Oh,, and the world is going to end come 2012. So what does it matter anyway!!!


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

In October of 2010, a black bear cub was found dead on a bait pile by a hunter. Upon necropsy of that animal, it was determined that the cub died from theobromine poisoning as a result of ingesting chocolate. This is the first evidence that current bear baiting practices in Michigan are causing mortality in bears. There is no evidence that mortality due to chocolate ingestion is causing a population level impact in bears despite a long history of baiting with chocolate in Michigan. ​
Now that evidence exists that baiting practices have, and can, cause mortality in bears, Wildlife Division recommends that chocolate be removed from the items that can be lawfully used for baiting bears. 




The link is on pg 1


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## Jowdones (Feb 21, 2007)

It is more than speculation that theobromine is toxic to many (most)animals - dogs, rats, horses, racoons, and bear to name a few. Humans have the ability to half the amount of theobromine in 6-10 hours (but actually it can still be very toxic to humans), but most animals cannot metabolize that fast. Theobromine has been documented as a killer in Michigan before. Three counties have documented multiple racoon deaths at bear bait stations. And when talking with hunters you will find that some will not use chocolate any more due to the hersey squirts that really sours sites. Theobromine has many side effects, diarrhea is one of those (because of the relaxtion of smooth muscle) along with being a vasodilator which reduces blood pressure - some of us need some chocolate.


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## Steve White (Oct 8, 2009)

Yes, Yes, I read that many times. Yet, where did they get the information to be able to determine that the thrombine levels found in the cub where of toxic levels??? Since there is no data available on what level of thrombine is toxic to a bear. Someone just went ahead and assumed that because thrombine was present it must have killed the bear. Maybe it was the caffeine. Maybe it was something else they did not test for or even look at. 

I repeat there is no scientific data as to what level or even if thrombine is toxic to bear. Therefore any conclusions drawn on it, are based on pure speculation. 

Let me ask this. Would you want to go to trial looking at life in prison based on pure speculation. 

Until a study is done to determine if thrombine is even toxic to bear. It's just someone making a guess. Like I said all the sweets put out could be just as toxic for them. Nobody really know, but I'm betting red dye NO 6 is probably not healthly or found their natural food sources. 

Furthermore were any secondary and outside testing facilities used to confirm any of these so called results. Or, is just some person in the MDNRE automatically the final word on something they really know nothing about. If a positive came back for CWD. The test would then be done by an outside lab to confirm the results. Just like it was this past winter when the UP got all scared because of a false positive on the WI border. 

I just don't understand why most folks cannot stand any DNR. Take anything they say with a bag of salt or refute it. Yet, the MDNRE says chocolate kills bears so it is the gospel. HMMMMM. I find it even more funny when the accepted way of determining a bears population is through a tetracycline study. Yet, many folks in MI feel that it can't be trusted. Biologists in many states have accepted this method. Yet some feel it is wrong. Yet 1 person in the MDNRE says chocolate is lethal and it is accepted. 

I must be the only one that see's the irony in this.


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## Jowdones (Feb 21, 2007)

Toxic levels are not known for bear. It is toxic to them, and most likely at lower levels than humans. Biologists knowing the enzymatic physiology of humans, dogs, and bears could reasonably piece together the likely hood of toxicity. If say 400 grams of chocloate is toxic to humans and the bear has ingested 2000 grams and exhibits internal symptoms of theobromine toxicity I think some conclusions can be drawn. Although I am not a fan of MANY MANY things that our DNR does, or any other govermental agency for that matter, I will not throw the bioloigists completely under the bus and say they don't know what they are doing. The fact we are discussing using something that is known to be toxic is ridiculous (who cares at what levels) there are so many other options, better ones, don't use chocolate.


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