# What's the difference between rifle and shotgun?



## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

junkman said:


> A .410 is a cal. and not a gage.


Would you feel better about shooting a 67.62 gauge or a trusty .410?

Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## Tagz (Sep 22, 2005)

From United States Code (18 USC 921)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

(5) The term shotgun means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
(6) The term short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
(7) The term rifle means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(8) The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.


----------



## scooter_trasher (Sep 19, 2005)

Murphy said:


> Hey folks,
> I have what may seem like a stupid question.. but it comes from the perspective of the law, not the layman.
> 
> As most folks know, firearm season has two basic zones.. Rifle zone, and shotgun/muzzleloader zone.
> ...


The spirit of law the has everything to do with velocity, shot guns are low velocity, shorter range around a 100 yards( sub sonic 1040 fps or less, maybe a bit more with sabots)
the same holds tru with black powder and pistol rounds, where as virtually all modern rifle cartridges are high power, long range, good for 300+ yard shots, it is a safety thing, the barrel of a shotgun will be clearly marked in gauge, the barrel of a rifle or pistol will be marked in caliber, shotguns shoot shells,rifles & pistols shoot cartridges, if you don't understand the law and get caught in the field , in the shotgun zone, with a hi-powered rifle or .22 rim-fire, during deer season, the prosecutor & judge will enlighten you further.


----------



## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

If I was in court with ya I might hit ya with this. Took a while to type on an iPhone. 

A "shotgun" chambers and fires a "shotshell", with one or more projectiles (slug or shot) in it. Shell, primer, powder, wad (with or without cup), and shot (loose or single and sometimes buffer also)

A "rifle" chambers and fires a "cartridge" with a single projectile (bullet) in it. Case, primer, powder, bullet. 

By their design, a shotshell and cartridge are different (obviously). 

A shotgun is measured in size by bore which equates to how many solid pure lead balls of a particular diameter it takes to measure a pound. 12 gauge = 12 solid lead balls for one pound, 67.62 gauge = 67.62 solid lead balls for one pound. (Probably why we use the "caliber")

Rifles are measured in diameter using English or metric units - .284 (7mm), .30 (7.62) etc. 

Or something like that. 

Probably would bring in a few cutaway shotshells and cartridges just for the jury to look at. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## perchpile88 (Dec 30, 2009)

dead short said:


> If I was in court with ya I might hit ya with this. Took a while to type on an iPhone.
> 
> A "shotgun" chambers and fires a "shotshell", with one or more projectiles (slug or shot) in it. Shell, primer, powder, wad (with or without cup), and shot (loose or single and sometimes buffer also)
> 
> ...




So nothing prevents .308 sabots in a shotgun or 500 yard muzzleloaders?


----------



## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

perchpile88 said:


> So nothing prevents .308 sabots in a shotgun or 500 yard muzzleloaders?


The way the law is currently written, no. If you successfully loaded .308 sabots into a shotshell, presumably a .410 it would be legal. Haven't seen a commercially produced .410 shotgun yet with a fully rifled barrel though so a sabot wouldn't necessarily have enough spin on its own which would cause erratic flight. 

If you're thinking about the circuit judge, I think the bore is actually .452 so it would not be a tight enough fit to provide consistent groups with a .410 sabot (overall diameter). 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## perchpile88 (Dec 30, 2009)

OK I always wondered if there ways a ballistic coefficient restriction written or something. I can shot 150 yard with my 12ga and I'm sure shotguns will be way more deadly as people continue to experiment with much more efficient combos rather than slipping a simple sabot around a .308. Not many would want to toe the line, but there are some impressive muzzleloaders out there.


----------



## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Murphy said:


> Your mindset is trying to justify layman's terms, common sense, immaterial titles, model numbers, etc etc...
> And why this may all be very relevant in normal every day life, none of it means anything to the law and doesn't exist in a court.
> 
> I need a scientific definition that can be applied under the law.


Then why don't you go to a legal forum and ask the question there instead of an outdoor forum? That seems like it would make a lot more sense to me.


----------



## Copper15 (Oct 17, 2012)

Murphy said:


> So if a DNR officer catches you with a rifle in a shotgun area, and you say its just an oddball shotgun that looks and works like a rifle, how is the DNR guy going to explain the difference to a judge or a jury who has no idea what the difference is?
> 
> That's what I am looking for.. The legal and technical separation definition of the two..
> 
> ...


If you come across said CO, please give me his name and the area he covers! I know several COs that would love to talk to them and would get involved for you. Your CO would be the laughing stock of the department.:lol:

I have heard of people re boreing shotguns to accept rifle rounds, but any CO would ask you to empty the gun, exposing rifle rounds.


----------



## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Some on here, for whatever reason, are taking way too much offense to the question. I think it is an interesting subject. With the advancement in muzzleloaders recently, and the continuing advancement of shotguns and ammunition, this question may become very relevant in the near future. according to the law, at what point is that in line, rifled barrel muzzle loader considered too dangerous to use in the shotgun zone?
Yes, the differences are painfully obvious to those of us you use these tools everyday, but the technical and defining differences may be getting a bit blurred.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## MIhunt (Dec 18, 2011)

triplelunger said:


> Some on here, for whatever reason, are taking way too much offense to the question. I think it is an interesting subject. With the advancement in muzzleloaders recently, and the continuing advancement of shotguns and ammunition, this question may become very relevant in the near future. according to the law, at what point is that in line, rifled barrel muzzle loader considered too dangerous to use in the shotgun zone?
> Yes, the differences are painfully obvious to those of us you use these tools everyday, but the technical and defining differences may be getting a bit blurred.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


There's not a technical, lawyer written law. It's just here's the line. Hunt with a rifle on this side, don't hunt with one on this side. They're taking offense to the question because he's looking for someone to go section II clause 1 of law A says "...". This doesn't exist. People just the see line and for the most part just accept it.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## MontcalmCounty (Apr 1, 2013)

The round it fires?


----------



## jatc (Oct 24, 2008)

We "know" what a rifle is when we see it, and we "know" what a shotgun is when we see that as well. BUT, the Op asks for the actual determining factor between the two, and for the life of me I can't come up with it in words. Even Dead Short's definitions are "blurry". 

Dang good question!

Here's one for you. I know a guy that hunts in Jackson County that is a tinkerer. He has built a .410 double barrel Beretta for use during firearm season. He ordered the barrels from Jarret Arms built to his specs for the gun. If you mic them, they are still the "standard" .410 bore size.

He then ordered several cases of Russian military BRASS .410 shotgun slugs and pulled the slugs. He then handloaded them with .41 caliber Bitteroot boat tail bullets (247 grains) and propels them with 80 grains of IMR 4350. On the chrono, he is getting roughly 2900 fps at the barrel. This is a "legit" 400 yard round for deer.

Now before you say, "That's a rifle!", I can also tell you he can go to Meijers and buy regular Remington .410 shells (slugs or shot) and they chamber and work just fine in this gun.

So I ask you, is this a rifle or is it a shotgun?


----------



## fish_AK (Nov 10, 2009)

jatc said:


> We "know" what a rifle is when we see it, and we "know" what a shotgun is when we see that as well. BUT, the Op asks for the actual determining factor between the two, and for the life of me I can't come up with it in words. Even Dead Short's definitions are "blurry".
> 
> Dang good question!
> 
> ...


Thats awesome! I want one!


----------



## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Unless the mi game laws spell it out differently an 870 with a rifled barrel is a rifle. Unless the sabot is considered a projectile. Lot of grey area here as well as lot of misconceptions about shotguns and rifles. Good discussion. I have often wondered this my self



Tagz said:


> From United States Code (18 USC 921)
> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921
> 
> (5) The term shotgun means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
> ...




Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## caffeineforall (Jul 6, 2011)

how about we petition to do away with the zones and make everyone hunt from an elevated platform with an exception for disabled hunters?


----------



## MIhunt (Dec 18, 2011)

caffeineforall said:


> how about we petition to do away with the zones and make everyone hunt from an elevated platform with an exception for disabled hunters?


Never will happen, some people can't hunt from an elevated blind due to fear of heights. I'd say how about we just suck it up and hunt with the happen we're aloud to.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Could it not be differentiated based on the plastic or paper hull of the shotshell vs the metallic casing for a rifle. Cannot say I have seen a metallic shotgun hull but if it exists this is out the window. 



caffeineforall said:


> how about we petition to do away with the zones and make everyone hunt from an elevated platform with an exception for disabled hunters?


----------



## Gnarf (Jul 24, 2011)

From the Michigan DNR website:

All Firearm Deer Seasons - Shotgun Zone
In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from Nov. 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a crossbow or a bow and arrow. Legal firearms are as follows:

*A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.*
A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

DEDGOOSE said:


> Could it not be differentiated based on the plastic or paper hull of the shotshell vs the metallic casing for a rifle. Cannot say I have seen a metallic shotgun hull but if it exists this is out the window.


You can get .410 full length brass, I believe from cheaper than dirt.


----------



## john warren (Jan 25, 2005)

a rifle in this case further defined by the statute of a center fire rifle is a long gun desined to fire a solid projectile threw a rifled barrel .

a shotgun is a weapon designed to shoot, but not limited to shot of various sizes depending on the purpose of use. optional barrels with rifling do not change the original intent of the weapon, i.e. shooting "shot".
none of which has any bearing on the intent of the law in question.


----------



## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

booone0 said:


> I can't believe how many posts like this have been made. Obviously we can all tell the difference between a 12ga. and a 30-06.
> 
> This discussion is about shotgun and ML loads/shells that approach the capabilities of rifle rounds. Its a good question and an interesting discussion. People can make a 200 yard shot with an H&R ultra slug hunter with sabot slugs and a rifled barrel, all with off the shelf components and ammo.
> 
> ...


Actually the OP asked what's the difference between a shotgun and a rifle.


----------



## booone0 (Nov 28, 2011)

dead short said:


> Actually the OP asked what's the difference between a shotgun and a rifle.


Yes, the technical difference in the letter of the law. Like the .410 with the brass shells earlier, the line between shotgun and rifle isn't perfectly clear. 

All I'm saying is that everyone on here can tell the difference between a Remington 870 and 700 so answers like "well its obvious" aren't really helpful. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

Maybe it's just me but I'm still confused by the confusion. 

If an advancement in technology allows you to shoot a shotgun slug or sabot at or near the velocity of a bullet fired out of a slower rifle cartridge, it's still a shotgun. Just a very accurate and efficient one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## Murphy (Aug 10, 2005)

triplelunger said:


> Some on here, for whatever reason, are taking way too much offense to the question. I think it is an interesting subject. With the advancement in muzzleloaders recently, and the continuing advancement of shotguns and ammunition, this question may become very relevant in the near future. according to the law, at what point is that in line, rifled barrel muzzle loader considered too dangerous to use in the shotgun zone?
> Yes, the differences are painfully obvious to those of us you use these tools everyday, but the technical and defining differences may be getting a bit blurred.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app



I can not, for the life of me, understand why anyone would take offense to such a benign question that holds real world consequences. 

I am not a firearms expert by any stretch.. but I own several smooth bore shotguns (inherited from father), an AR10 and some other miscellaneous firearms. I understand and have a good comprehension of the ballistic capabilities of each of them. (.308 rounds are amazing by the way!) Understanding the destructive abilities of each weapon is a safety issue from my point of view.

My reason for asking is because I am firing a new 870 slug gun with a Hornady SST round that treks along at over 2000 ft/sec when it's let loose. I was amazed at the ballistics data and began to realize the distinction between a shotgun and a rifle is disappearing fast.

I've been bow hunting for 20 years but this is my first season with a firearm. I understand the reasoning behind the rules that regulate where a rife can be used but am beginning to think they're going to need some more clarification soon.


----------



## Murphy (Aug 10, 2005)

jatc said:


> We "know" what a rifle is when we see it, and we "know" what a shotgun is when we see that as well. BUT, the Op asks for the actual determining factor between the two, and for the life of me I can't come up with it in words. Even Dead Short's definitions are "blurry".
> 
> Dang good question!
> 
> ...


WOW.. That's all I can say.. You could argue over that for a week and never come to an agreeable definition.


----------



## Murphy (Aug 10, 2005)

caffeineforall said:


> how about we petition to do away with the zones and make everyone hunt from an elevated platform with an exception for disabled hunters?


Oh man.. I can't agree more. The safety issues alone would merit passing laws like that.

Way too many idiots out there who don't bother to consider the background who are walking around with high power weapons.


----------



## Murphy (Aug 10, 2005)

jatc said:


> dead short said:
> 
> 
> > Ok. But what does a shotshell look like? I am not trying to be a pain here by the way, I'm just interested in stuff like this.
> ...


----------



## Murphy (Aug 10, 2005)

triplelunger said:


> I could name a handful of well educated adults who could not!


Just a handful? 
Maybe some folks don't realize this, but there are lots and lots of people who have no clue at all what the difference between a shotgun and a rifle is.. 

In fact, there was a shooting on the news some time earlier this year and the media was reporting that the shooter was using a "High Power AR15 Shotgun"... ***?? That kind of says it all.


----------



## Murphy (Aug 10, 2005)

dead short said:


> Maybe it's just me but I'm still confused by the confusion.
> 
> If an advancement in technology allows you to shoot a shotgun slug or sabot at or near the velocity of a bullet fired out of a slower rifle cartridge, it's still a shotgun. Just a very accurate and efficient one.


Hornady SST 12ga 300gn travel at 2000 fps... that's pretty close.


----------



## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

jatc said:


> Oh man.. here's another one... You could argue about this one for a week and never come to an agreeable answer.


It looks like a full brass shotgun shell for a twelve gauge loaded with a Foster style (possibly) slug to me. Although I can't tell from the pic if it's actually a rifled slug or more like a maxi ball. Ballistically no different than a Remington slugger probably. It does look cool though. 



Murphy said:


> Hornady SST 12ga 300gn travel at 2000 fps... that's pretty close.


Exactly, and still a shotgun, not a rifle.


----------



## Duckiller (Mar 26, 2010)

It was suggested that only shot guns use wads. Black powder rifles have wads between powder and bullet. There are lots of brass shotgun cartridges. The only thing I can think of would be internal pressure when fired. Shotguns are designed for about 13-15000 psi/cup. Even black powder rifles will safe at 20,000psi/cup. I would really like to know how Michigan law differentiates between shotguns and rifles.  Gauge is not a criteria. As stated a .410 is about 62 ga. a 35 Rem I would guess is about a 100ga and a 30/30 is probably a 150 ga. By allowing shotguns to have rifled barrels the state has blurred the line between shotgun and rifle. One way would be to list all shotguns by make and model. H&R single shots with interchangeable barrels will make this tricky unless only specified gauges are allowed. Does anyone have access to Michigan that defines shotguns? It may be a bit outdated and COs and judges are using what a 10 yr old thinks as criteria.


----------



## Murphy (Aug 10, 2005)

Duckiller said:


> It was suggested that only shot guns use wads. Black powder rifles have wads between powder and bullet. There are lots of brass shotgun cartridges. The only thing I can think of would be internal pressure when fired. Shotguns are designed for about 13-15000 psi/cup. Even black powder rifles will safe at 20,000psi/cup. I would really like to know how Michigan law differentiates between shotguns and rifles. Gauge is not a criteria. As stated a .410 is about 62 ga. a 35 Rem I would guess is about a 100ga and a 30/30 is probably a 150 ga. By allowing shotguns to have rifled barrels the state has blurred the line between shotgun and rifle. One way would be to list all shotguns by make and model. H&R single shots with interchangeable barrels will make this tricky unless only specified gauges are allowed. Does anyone have access to Michigan that defines shotguns? It may be a bit outdated and COs and judges are using what a 10 yr old thinks as criteria.


You're on the right track except I don't like the idea of listing individual models as this would add administrative costs for each new gun at both the private, corporate and government levels.

How about following the spirit of the law and simply put an upper velocity limit on the projectile(s). 
I think this goes along with what you were saying about a pressure limit except the pressure limit does not restrict range if compensated with weight. 
A velocity limit would not restrict type or weight but would most certainly restrict range.


----------



## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Murphy said:


> Hornady SST 12ga 300gn travel at 2000 fps... that's pretty close.


Not really. It is close to short range rifle cartridges like the .444 Marlin, 45-70 etc and in some cases more effective. But in terms of long range ballistics, it's not even remotely close to the popular .30-06 class of cartridges. You start looking at the real data including BC and SD and the two are not even in the same discussion. Yes, todays slugs far outperform anything our grandfathers used and our fathers started with but they are far from matching the long range capability of most high pressure centerfire cartridges that are popular for big game. 



The discussion needs to be why we can't get the law passed to use rifles chambered in straight walled pistol cartridges in the shotgun zone. These have a less effective range than the modern shotgun slug and muzzleloader and, other than ignorance, there is no reason to keep them illegal in the shotgun zone. Indiana at least got that part right. 


As far as the shotgun/rifle label dispute....it's pretty grey in actuality. The Savage 220 and Browning A-bolt slug gun are every bit a centerfire rifle that happens to fire a shotgun shell. Still defined by law as a shotgun but for all intensive purposes, they are a rifle. Definitely an interesting discusion.


----------



## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

What is a ruger 10/22 when using bird shot? Rifle or shotgun


----------



## dead short (Sep 15, 2009)

bowhunter426 said:


> What is a ruger 10/22 when using bird shot? Rifle or shotgun


Rifle. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## NorthWoodsHunter (Feb 21, 2011)

Tagz said:


> From United States Code (18 USC 921)
> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921
> 
> (5) The term shotgun means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
> ...


 
By this definition my rifled barrel "shotgun" would be illegal in zone 3 for firearm season. 

Interesting I've never considered this. I'm guessing it is less applicable today as it was when the line was drawn. Modern rifled slug guns and muzzleloaders are capable of long range shooting more so than some rifles I would imagine.


----------

