# Rimfires and Grouse?



## ctgmi (Dec 4, 2008)

Does anyone else around here hunt grouse with a .22?
When I bring this up most people around here look at me in disbelief. 
I&#8217;m defiantly in the minority around here but discovered this method of hunting them while living in the Pacific NW and find it to be a really enjoyable solo hunt also one of the perks are that you don&#8217;t have to pick the shot out of the meat.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

Not so much below the Bridge. I am not sure of its legality.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

ctgmi said:


> Does anyone else around here hunt grouse with a .22?
> When I bring this up most people around here look at me in disbelief.
> Im defiantly in the minority around here but discovered this method of hunting them while living in the Pacific NW and find it to be a really enjoyable solo hunt also one of the perks are that you dont have to pick the shot out of the meat.


I'm from Washington State originally and until I moved to MI I had only met one person who hunted the things with a shotgun, and even then I think he took them out close to the road. Most folks I know out there go after them with a .22 on logging roads. No one I know there uses a dog to find them.


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## TimSchoenborn (Dec 15, 2006)

It is called ground slucing (sp)

Never shot a bird that was not in the air and don't plan on starting anytime soon. But then again I don't shoot birds that were not pointed by one of my dogs.

This is a topic you will take some heat on.

I for one don't agree with it. Might as well do it from a vehicle


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

TimSchoenborn said:


> This is a topic you will take some heat on.
> 
> I for one don't agree with it. Might as well do it from a vehicle


To be honest I never did it out there (pheasant was my game) and I don't here. 

But as a point of fact, a lot of people basically do it from their truck there. Grouse are seen as birds you happen to stumble on and rarely get close enough to shoot with a shotgun. I'm sure that someone there uses a dog to hunt them "properly," but I never met anyone that did in 33 years of living there.


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## Ray Adams (Feb 17, 2006)

Uh oh...

Would you mind if we talked about abortion or politics...something easier?

Ray


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## brookie~freak (Jul 8, 2007)

ctgmi, if you are new to michigan, then welcome. You probably should have put one of these  after your first sentence. While it is not illegal or anything, its generally viewed as not very sporting to shoot a regal gamebird like the ruffed grouse off the ground or in a tree, at least in most of the east and midwest anyway. In different parts of north america, ground swatting may be the accepted norm. Heck, just last week on the outdoor channel they aired a show where they shot grouse w/ a bow and arrow that were on the ground, but that was up in canada.


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## geojasstef (Jan 23, 2005)

Is it even legal???? I'm not sure if it is.

by the way I have heard that most people in zone 1 pattern their shotguns at 35-40 mph........


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Ray Adams said:


> Uh oh...
> 
> Would you mind if we talked about abortion or politics...something easier?
> 
> Ray


I'm merely stating a fact, not advocating anything one way or another.


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## ctgmi (Dec 4, 2008)

Wow! Did it I open a can of worms or what? 
I&#8217;m don&#8217;t quite understand some of the heat, while it seems most prefer the dog and shotgun method, I again don&#8217;t get the &#8220;not sporting attitude&#8221; as I&#8217;m out in the forest glassing with binoculars to spot and get into range of these birds.


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## Little Roober (Jun 17, 2004)

brookie~freak said:


> While it is not illegal or anything, its generally viewed as not very sporting to shoot a regal gamebird like the ruffed grouse off the ground or in a tree, at least in most of the east and midwest anyway. In different parts of north america, ground swatting may be the accepted norm. Heck, just last week on the outdoor channel they aired a show where they shot grouse w/ a bow and arrow that were on the ground, but that was up in canada.


That's like saying shooting deer with a crossbow is unsporting. Should everyone wait until a deer takes flight to shoot it?


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

We have had similar discussion in the Waterfowl forum about landing birds and groundswating or waterswating vs taking the shot in the air.- To me I really enjoy grouse on the wing, but a little spot and stalk could be fun too. The end result is meat, so I see no real ethical dilema- it's legal, carry on.


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## Tolmite (May 17, 2005)

Not taking any sides here, but it was always my impression in Michigan to legally shoot a bird it must be in flight. Is this not true?


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## beautriz66 (Dec 21, 2008)

I'm inclined to view anything stalked and shot , carefully, with a rimfire, as challenging and ethical. the purists among us may see wingshooting as the only "challenging" or "sporting " way to kill grouse. I respect them, but respectfully submit that "ground-sluicing" refers to swatting them on the ground with a SHOTGUN and is tantamount to cheating because it is DESTRUCTIVE and WASTEFUL, since it neccessarily ruins good meat. 
We still have to respect the person who shoots for the food value, if they truly use the resource, and otherwise abide by the law.
We can learn a lot about ourselves and nature if we take time to live out in it, i.e., killing to EAT, not neccessarily for sport.
Feel free to disagree. I'll still respect you in the morning...


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## Fox (Nov 21, 2007)

It is perfectly legal to shoot upland birds on the ground. However, this forum is predominantly upland hunters who hunt with dogs; albeit flushers or pointers. Myself included. You'll find the majority of us are not out to simply fill a game bag, rather we are out to see our dogs work the birds well enough to get a flush worth taking a shot at. Getting the bird is icing on the cake. There is a certain mystique that goes along with it all as well as some unwritten rules. One of those being that you don't shoot birds on the ground or sitting in a tree. 
Now, I will completely agree that popping grouse with a .22 takes some skill and patience. the fact remains you're not going to see alot of support for it on this particular forum. Sort of like going on a flyfishing forum and bringing up bait fishing.
F


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## TimSchoenborn (Dec 15, 2006)

Fox said:


> Sort of like going on a flyfishing forum and bringing up bait fishing.



He's going to show up
with a coffee can full of worms.

Red can. Hills Brothers.
I'll lay a bet on it.


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## dogwhistle (Oct 31, 2004)

shooting grouse or any game from a vehicle is both unethical and illegal.

grouse, like any small game can be taken with a rimfire or even centerfire. if you are stalking the birds, i dont see it as unethical, just not a very interesting way to hunt grouse. but then, to me, the only interesting way to hunt grouse is behind a hard running stylish settor or pointer and only shooting at birds that are being staunchly pointed. for the record, i dont consider other methods such as flushing dogs or shooting at bumps unethical.

i do however, believe that exploring the ethics of hunting is always a worthwhle topic.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Fox said:


> It is perfectly legal to shoot upland birds on the ground. However, this forum is predominantly upland hunters who hunt with dogs; albeit flushers or pointers. Myself included. You'll find the majority of us are not out to simply fill a game bag, rather we are out to see our dogs work the birds well enough to get a flush worth taking a shot at. Getting the bird is icing on the cake. There is a certain mystique that goes along with it all as well as some unwritten rules. One of those being that you don't shoot birds on the ground or sitting in a tree.
> Now, I will completely agree that popping grouse with a .22 takes some skill and patience. the fact remains you're not going to see alot of support for it on this particular forum. Sort of like going on a flyfishing forum and bringing up bait fishing.
> F


Well said. 
I popped plenty as a youngster, but wouldn't think of it now. For me, the "meat" part of the hunt has become a distant second to the other aspects, namely the dog work. I suppose if I were starving and lived in the woods in might be a totally different story, but as it stands now, grouse meat is a conservative 10X more expensive than store-bought chicken when all expenses are considered: and I'm pretty cheap!:lol:


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

ctgmi said:


> Wow! Did it I open a can of worms or what?
> I&#8217;m don&#8217;t quite understand some of the heat, while it seems most prefer the dog and shotgun method, I again don&#8217;t get the &#8220;not sporting attitude&#8221; as I&#8217;m out in the forest glassing with binoculars to spot and get into range of these birds.


Most road hunters I've run across or witnessed cruise slowly - as in very slowly - down the two tracks and rarely used "gravel secondary roads" with a loaded shotgun in their vehicle - illegal- and shoot birds through the passenger or driver's window or perhaps their passenger does the killing - also illegal. Never heard of a road hunter who upon seeing a grouse on the edge of the road or just off the road will then stop the vehicle, *uncase* his or her shotgun, load the firearm *outside* of the vehicle and then attempt to kill the bird. So let's just drop this "not sporting attitude" crap.

Hoppe's no.10


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## fishx65 (Aug 24, 2005)

Some might even argue that using dogs is not fair chase but I love hunting behind a dog. Before I got into bowhunting I spent a lot of time stalking grouse with a 20 ga. in the NLP. My goal was to sneak close enough to them for a ground swat but most of my shots ended up at the sky. This was back about 8 years ago when the population was really high in the NLP. Besides scent, they are just as hard to stalk as deer. If Grouse did not taste so awesome, I would definitely hunt them with a 22.


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## Little Roober (Jun 17, 2004)

Hoppe's no.10 said:


> Never heard of a road hunter who upon seeing a grouse on the edge of the road or just off the road will then stop the vehicle, *uncase* his or her shotgun, load the firearm *outside* of the vehicle and then attempt to kill the bird. So let's just drop this "not sporting attitude" crap.
> 
> Hoppe's no.10


Sorry to keep using my deer hunting experience with birds, but I have seen a deer hunter do that before. He saw the deer, parked, got out, grabbed his muzzle loader (from the case), loaded it, and missed. He still got off a clean shot, so why would that be impossible for a grouse hunter? 

Would WALKING down a road looking for grouse in or just off the road be considered "road hunting?"


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## Pugetsound (Feb 5, 2002)

Hoppe's no.10 said:


> Most road hunters I've run across or witnessed cruise slowly - as in very slowly - down the two tracks and rarely used "gravel secondary roads" with a loaded shotgun in their vehicle - illegal- and shoot birds through the passenger or driver's window or perhaps their passenger does the killing - also illegal. Never heard of a road hunter who upon seeing a grouse on the edge of the road or just off the road will then stop the vehicle, *uncase* his or her shotgun, load the firearm *outside* of the vehicle and then attempt to kill the bird. So let's just drop this "not sporting attitude" crap.
> 
> Hoppe's no.10


Sorry, but I am a little confused by what you just said. If I understand you correctly, then those who cruise the roads are not being ethical? I agree with that.

But I think you are also say that if you are out spotting and stalking with binocs, then popping them with a .22 is sporting. Because I would think that is much harder to do, much harder in the sense of finding the birds, but much easier to hit them if they are on the ground or in a tree. 

On the other hand, finding birds with a dog seems like it would be easier and not as much work on the handler's part, but then the shooter has to hit the bird flying through the air, which makes that part of the hunt much harder.

All I would ask for the "purist" is respect what I do here in WA, and I will respect what you do in MI.

Neither are wrong, just different.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201562


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

Been hunting up in Chapleau Ontario a few times and all the locals used a scoped 22 to pop the Sprucies and Ruffed grouse, usually out of trees.
As far as road hunting; I spent a lot of time as a kid hunting northern Michigan. After a few hours of tracking through knee to waist high snow the rest of the day was spend driving the roads looking for birds up in the trees. We would jump out, uncase the gun, load it and go in for the shot. Nothing really wrong with it, not my cup of tea at this point in my life. Back then my brother lived up there and was a tree planting contractor for the DNR and was as poor as one could get. 100% of the meat he fed his family was road kill donated by the DNR or local sheriff or game he shot himslf so we had no issue with legally "road hunting".
I could tell you some good stories of the things he did when he got hard up for food but I don't need to hear how bad of a person he was for feeding his family.


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## Ray Adams (Feb 17, 2006)

> He's going to show up
> with a coffee can full of worms.
> 
> Red can. Hills Brothers.
> I'll lay a bet on it.


A River Runs Through It. Nice.

Ray


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## TimSchoenborn (Dec 15, 2006)

Ray Adams said:


> A River Runs Through It. Nice.
> 
> Ray


I was wondering who would be the first to get it.


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## BassFisher91 (Sep 11, 2005)

Meh, you could play the argument both ways. I could say using a dog is 'cheating' in a way. And I also see why people get mad at this type of hunt, b/c many of these cases are shot from a truck.

I personally have done this style of hunting, but it was for a reason. Up North, my buddy's G-Parents sustain themselves on homegrown food, and rely heavily on the hunting seasons so they can have meat for the year. They asked me if I could help them out, so I agreed to it, but not doing it from a truck, I would never agree to that.

I can see both sides of the argument.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Tolmite said:


> Not taking any sides here, but it was always my impression in Michigan to legally shoot a bird it must be in flight. Is this not true?


Do you shoot flying turkeys?


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

Hoppe's no.10 said:


> ..........Never heard of a road hunter who upon seeing a grouse on the edge of the road or just off the road will then stop the vehicle, *uncase* his or her shotgun, load the firearm *outside* of the vehicle and then attempt to kill the bird. ...
> Hoppe's no.10



I have witnessed just this act, many times, both men & women (woman) in the UP while I'm driving to my next spot. Many times.


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

Little Roober said:


> Sorry to keep using my deer hunting experience with birds, but I have seen a deer hunter do that before. He saw the deer, parked, got out, grabbed his muzzle loader (from the case), loaded it, and missed. He still got off a clean shot, so why would that be impossible for a grouse hunter?
> 
> Would WALKING down a road looking for grouse in or just off the road be considered "road hunting?"


It wouldn't be impossible it's just been my anecdotal experience that most 'road hunters' - not walking a road but riding in a vehicle - do so with a loaded gun in the vehicle and don't hesitate to shoot from the vehicle (both acts illegal) as stopping, getting out of the vehicle, uncasing a gun and loading same is apt to spook the bird - flushing wild or running into heavy cover and then flushing - to say nothing of being awkward, laborious and unnecessary - so why 'road hunt' with an unloaded gun?

The term "road hunting" is understood by most people as being a colloquial reference to hunting and shooting from a vehicle.
*It's not the "road" that makes it unethical or illegal but rather the combination of the vehicle with a loaded gun inside. *

When I was bird hunting in New Brunswick the first evening there my then wife and I went for a walk down some two tracks to stretch our legs after a long drive from Montreal. We met and were given a ride back to camp by a woman whose favored method of grouse hunting was to drive down the two tracks in late afternoon. Her firearm - a beautifully engraved Austrian O/U. Top barrel was a .22 Hornet, bottom barrel a .410 - and she carried it loaded between the two front seats of her Toyota Land Cruiser and was unapologetic about shooting from the vehicle with the .410 if the bird was close or if the bird was down the road shooting it while half-in and half-out of the vehicle with the .22 Hornet. She seemed amused that anyone would actually tramp through the woods looking for birds and go through the expense etc. of owning a bird dog when grouse could be killed so easily from the comfort of a vehicle's front seat. This lady's approach to grouse hunting is shared by most Michigan 'road hunters' and especially by north of the bridge road hunters who have easy access to seldom traveled two tracks that wind for miles, and miles and miles through the U.P's swamps, forests etc. Most of the self-proclaimed U.P. "jack pine savages" that I've run across over the decades would consider it the height of idiocy to road hunt without a loaded gun in the front seat!


This is a far cry from *walking* two tracks with a loaded gun (with or without a dog) which in my opinion there is nothing wrong with. Just about everyone who grouse hunts in the 'classic' manner spends some part of the day walking two tracks with a loaded gun.

However, I believe in Michigan it is unlawful to carry a loaded gun along a road _per se_ but can't imagine anyone getting into trouble doing it along a two-track.

Hoppe's no.10


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I grew up road hunting but, I always did it a little differently than the others. Nobody ever had a loaded gun in the car, the old timers would stop, load and shoot. I would stop, load, flush and then shoot. A little less sporting than tramping through the woods but, at least the bird was flying. Still will do that on occasion if the hunting is slow and I am checking out new spots. Sometimes I'll even let the dog and try to get a point out of them. More times than not the bird flushes before you get a shot.


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## boomer_x7 (Dec 19, 2008)

I hunt both with shotgun and dog, and 22. /stalk. To me dog hunting is easier. Dod points you know where the bird is and almost anyone can hit a bird with a little practice. With a dog you tend to get more shots. With a rifle you can't realy shoot at a flying bird. So either you see him first or your looking for another bird. i don't see how this is considered unethical. I do how ever frown on shooting a sitting bird with a shotgun.


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## spice64 (Dec 1, 2004)

Little Roober said:


> That's like saying shooting deer with a crossbow is unsporting. Should everyone wait until a deer takes flight to shoot it?


 As a matter of fact some find Shooting a deer with a crossbow is just as unsporting as ground swatting a grouse.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Sorry for another example from deer hunting guys...

Several years back (maybe mid-70's?) my grandpa lived in an old farm house. Sitting around one Sunday afternoon, probably watching a Lions game, he watched a HUGE 10pt buck stroll into his back yard. He hopped out of his lazy boy, pulled his 12 gauge from its case, loaded it with slugs, and eased open the front door. He did a commando crawl around the house, took careful aim at the deer, and...

NOTHING! No, he didn't misfire. He simply couldn't bring himself to pull the trigger. He always told that story saying, "Hunting is about going to find the animal where he lives. When the animal comes to find you, that's not hunting... that's something else." He didn't need the meat, and he wouldn't have felt right with that trophy on the wall.

In my opinion, road shooting a game bird (or deer) falls into the same category, whether you flush the bird, put a dog on it, whatever... To me, that's "the animal coming to you." If you want to shoot birds that bad, buy a bunch of pheasant chicks, raise them in your back yard, and whenever you get the itch, throw open the slider and let loose with your gun of choice.

Now the purists may not agree with me, but getting out in the woods with field glasses and stalking a bird and taking a long range shot sounds a bit more sporting; maybe just as sporting as hunting with a shotgun and dogs. Not my bag, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

I'm pretty sure that shooting on or over a paved road is against the law, but I'd have to look into it. Whether you need the meat or not, it's dangerous and stupid no matter what part of the state you live in.

KW


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## Tolmite (May 17, 2005)

Bobby said:


> Do you shoot flying turkeys?


Good point!!!


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## brdhntr (Oct 1, 2003)

k9wernet said:


> -snip
> I'm pretty sure that shooting on or over a paved road is against the law, but I'd have to look into it. Whether you need the meat or not, it's dangerous and stupid no matter what part of the state you live in.
> 
> KW


And you are absolutely 100% wrong.

http://midnr.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/MiDNR.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=JA3N1Qnj&p_lva=020724-000006&p_faqid=361&p_created=1006196828&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTEzJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9c2V0YmFjayZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPTQmcF9wcm9kX2x2bDE9MjEmcF9wcm9kX2x2bDI9NjQmcF9zb3J0X2J5PWRmbHQmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

brdhntr said:


> And you are absolutely 100% wrong.
> 
> http://midnr.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/M...DI9NjQmcF9zb3J0X2J5PWRmbHQmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=


Yep, I was just looking at the ASK DNR website and saw the same thing.

I wouldn't say 100% though, more like 33.3% wrong... While not illegal, it's still dangerous and stupid... Unethical in my book, too (that's 25%)!

KW


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

Bobby said:


> I have witnessed just this act, many times, both men & women (woman) in the UP while I'm driving to my next spot. Many times.


 Bobby if you'd stop following me around you wouldn't see it so much.


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## Ray Adams (Feb 17, 2006)

> " He didn't need the meat, and he wouldn't have felt right with that trophy on the wall.


Good on him. A perfect illustration of a gentleman practicing "ethics".

Ray


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## mau (Sep 6, 2005)

I have property in Atlanta, mostly cedar swamp.The closest cabin is a mile away.I either sit in front of the cabin or take a walk with my .22 and take birds when I get the chance.This year I got 8 . I have never taken one out of a tree mostly because by the time I know they are there they already scared the crap out of me.


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## DiversWelcome (Jan 15, 2007)

I will weigh in on this, first off I think that spotting and stalking a grouse in michigan would be totally ethical as well as really hard if you don't know where they are for god sakes they scare the crap out of me almost every time my dog flushes one even when I know it's going to happen. Second as for road hunting I used to do this with friends a lot in college we would drive the two tracks and back roads headed to fishing spots and looking for grouse, get out of the car uncase and load the gun and flush and shoot the grouse, granted not totally ethical but then again we did not get very many. On the other side of things I think that the grouse of the upper midwest are different and have been programmed to flush and we as hunters have naturally selected the grouse that flush and are more wary through out the years through hunting pressure, if you talk to some of the old guys they used to do the same thing with a 22 that they do in Ontario. On a side note I have a buddy in Alaska that is starting a hunting lodge, when I asked him about bird hunting he said that it is not really sporting that you have to pretty much kick the grouse to get them to move once again they hunt them with a 22 for the pot. As for hunting on the road, you are allowed to hunt on any road in Michigan I believe as long as it is not an interstate highway as long as you have permission to hunt the property. For instance on state land if both sides of the road are state land you can hunt the whole road if one side is not and the other side is you can legally hunt to the middle of the road, if neither is state and you do not have permission then you can't hunt any of the road. If I am wrong I apologize


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## Sam22 (Jan 22, 2003)

Tolmite said:


> Not taking any sides here, but it was always my impression in Michigan to legally shoot a bird it must be in flight. Is this not true?


Nope.. it's legal to shoot them with a 22, or a shotgun or bow.. on the ground in the tree or on the wing... grouse anyway...


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