# Home defense?



## Newcub (May 26, 2010)

What do you all think about using 45 acp 200 gr. plated bullets for home defense? Or Missouri bullet company 230 gr. lead bullets for home defense


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Newcub said:


> What do you all think about using 45 acp 200 gr. plated bullets for home defense? Or Missouri bullet company 230 gr. lead bullets for home defense


In a 1911? I'd go with whatever feeds the most reliably. But frankly, in this society and the way people are freaking out, I have been going to bed with a pistol (9mm p226 W/ 20 rd mag) on the nightstand, and a long gun about 6' closer than usual. Pistols are only to get you to the long gun when you have the option.


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## michcats (Jun 2, 2017)

Crazy times stores are sold out of ammo and private sale prices are riding thank God I been stocking up for awhile before the bs


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## Newcub (May 26, 2010)

ESOX said:


> In a 1911? I'd go with whatever feeds the most reliably. But frankly, in this society and the way people are freaking out, I have been going to bed with a pistol (9mm p226 W/ 20 rd mag) on the nightstand, and a long gun about 6' closer than usual. Pistols are only to get you to the long gun when you have the option.


No it isn't a 1911. It's a XD and XDs. I bought a thousand plated bullets 4 or 5 years back. Loaded up a couple dozen back then and all worked fine. Same with the lead.


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## Mr. 16 gauge (Jan 26, 2000)

I think that any bullet in .45 ACP that feeds reliably in said firearm will be more than adequate for self defense.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

While I am not surprised, I still can't get over the total unavailability of most 12 gauge ammo that could be used for defense.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Steve said:


> While I am not surprised, I still can't get over the total unavailability of most 12 gauge ammo that could be used for defense.


ANY 12 gauge ammo could be used for defense.


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

DecoySlayer said:


> ANY 12 gauge ammo could be used for defense.


Defense yes home defense no......


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

DecoySlayer said:


> ANY 12 gauge ammo could be used for defense.


I have some bird shot (could be used to scare people away) and some zombie 12 gage ammo, but not nearly as much as I would like.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

sullyxlh said:


> Defense yes home defense no......



Ifin it's all you got.......................... 

I would not want to use many 12GA loads for the house, but if it was all I had, and some goober was coming in, it would get used.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Steve said:


> I have some bird shot (could be used to scare people away) and some zombie 12 gage ammo, but not nearly as much as I would like.


Every fire a duck load at a piece of paper at say, 20ft? Which would be a common shot in a house? I don't think I would want to stand front of such a shot.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I have taken down wrist sized saplings at 10' with a 20ga & 7/8 oz #8 in the grouse woods. I don't want to be on the receiving end of that. Yea The birds laugh and keep flying........


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## MSUICEMAN (Jan 9, 2002)

#4 hevishot home made shells that are LETHAL on turkey, ducks, and geese... wouldn't want anything to do with that on the other end.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

Mr. 16 gauge said:


> I think that any bullet in .45 ACP that feeds reliably in said firearm will be more than adequate for self defense.






Newcub said:


> What do you all think about using 45 acp 200 gr. plated bullets for home defense? Or Missouri bullet company 230 gr. lead bullets for home defense


Shooting someone with a .45ACP 230 gr. bullet or a 200 gr. bullet across a bedroom or kitchen would I suspect have the same effect .

9mm Hi-Power


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

To bad only shotgun i have is a SP10 with a 30" barrel I wonder if i should use my turkey Or goose loads ?


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## 10x25mm (Nov 12, 2016)

Steve said:


> While I am not surprised, I still can't get over the total unavailability of most 12 gauge ammo that could be used for defense.


Don't dismiss the magnum waterfowl loads in steel shot sizes BB, BBB, and T. They are devastating home defense loads with more open chokes and still available at most retailers. Even more will become available soon as their seasonal runs take place.


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## perchpile88 (Dec 30, 2009)

Picking your vantage point is way more important than any caliber or bullet type. I'm not sweeping my house. I live alone. I'm tucked up tight to my door frame (triple stacked studs) which also meets my closet door frame(more studs). I'm at the end of a dark hallway staring down a back lit living room, ready to let a string of 5.56 go. 

If your target has bones, I would go bigger before smaller as far as shot goes. Any pistol caliber is less than ideal, so send a few. 

Hopefully you won't have to gamble the rest of your days on a court room.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

10x25mm said:


> Don't dismiss the magnum waterfowl loads in steel shot sizes BB, BBB, and T. They are devastating home defense loads with more open chokes and still available at most retailers. Even more will become available soon as their seasonal runs take place.


Choke size at 20' is not going to make much of a difference, the "bad guy" is still going to get wad and all.


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## Rasher (Oct 14, 2004)

#4-BB sized shot is going to be devastating, buck shot has the capability to travel thru walls into your neighbors house as well as slugs, imho they should be avoided unless last resort, I have seen pics of people shot with small sized birdshot inside of homes(A cousin now retired used to be chief of police in a small town on the outskirts of Cincinnati), they literally looked like they where hit with a meat grinder, I can't imagine they survived.


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## GIDEON (Mar 28, 2008)

Some years back my dad and I found an abandoned town in the mountains. Strip jpb forced the residents to leave. Anyway we felt the urge to do a little experiment with our 45's. To make a long story short, 6 of my 9 shots went completely through the house and shed at the rear of the property, with the side of the hill stopping them. This was a front to beck shot. Side to side 7 went completely thru, with three going thru the adjoining house. Both houses were wood, with asbestos siding. no window shots either. So we surmised that a 45 was more than adiquite for home defense. Military surplus ammo.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

I know there's a lot of examples of people taking bird shot even to the head and surviving. They are never recognizable again in the later case...but survive.

While the 00 and 1 buck are apparently needed to hit FBI testing protocol out at 40 plus yards, at house distances it isnt necessary to hit this protocol. 

There's no doubt in my mind that heavier bird shot like some sort of heavy shot goose load or even turkey load are most likely going to do the trick maybe better than a handgun.

Personally I like the 4 buck 12 gauge or 3 buck 20 as these get just about the appropriate pentration (not over) and put all the odds in my favor.

Actually I don't even have a shotty with me right now. I have my 243 with 75 grain vmax. I'll bet this is as deadly and it's probably faster than my shotgun.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

DecoySlayer said:


> You CAN'T be a flaming liberal! Flaming liberals are ascared of guns, and don't believe in the right of self defense. They are all victims.


Not sure that's a reality. I have some liberal friends that love guns and I wouldn't advise kicking there door in for free ****. You won't like it. Anti's are the ones that don't believe in self defense unless it's there's and there allowed to hire a gun to do that but don't want anyone else owning them. Those are what you may believe are the flaming liberals. Have a neighbor( couple miles down the road) that was broke into. Use to be an anti gun guy. Today, not so much. He's out shooting all the time now. Ain't happening again he said. I can respect that. Thought he was right but learned he wasn't and admits it today. All anybody can ask for is seeing things in real life not fairy tales.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Also while a long gun is always better simple reality is a handgun is usually closer to hand and easier to get into hand. 

Therefore, odds are it would be what gets being used. People dont like to get shot. Most of the time if they think they are going to get shot then they are going to steal someone else's tv.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Macs13 said:


> Perhaps your brainwashed perceptions don't match reality on the ground.
> 
> Perhaps we're all just people on a spectrum of political views (or other spectrum judging by many of the posts that I see on here)
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS998 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app



OR

Maybe you missed the humor. Like the use of the "word" "ascared". GEEZ! It is obvious that you don't know me.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

johnIV said:


> Not sure that's a reality. I have some liberal friends that love guns and I wouldn't advise kicking there door in for free ****. You won't like it. Anti's are the ones that don't believe in self defense unless it's there's and there allowed to hire a gun to do that but don't want anyone else owning them. Those are what you may believe are the flaming liberals. Have a neighbor( couple miles down the road) that was broke into. Use to be an anti gun guy. Today, not so much. He's out shooting all the time now. Ain't happening again he said. I can respect that. Thought he was right but learned he wasn't and admits it today. All anybody can ask for is seeing things in real life not fairy tales.


I bet you have never duck hunted with me either! LOL!


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

shaffe48b said:


> I know there's a lot of examples of people taking bird shot even to the head and surviving. They are never recognizable again in the later case...but survive.
> 
> While the 00 and 1 buck are apparently needed to hit FBI testing protocol out at 40 plus yards, at house distances it isnt necessary to hit this protocol.
> 
> ...


A 410 with #6 shot would blow your mind with what damage it does at 3 yards in gelatin. Full choke barrel is around a 3-4" pattern and does some real damage. No penetration hardly but lots of destruction in 6" of depth.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

johnIV said:


> A 410 with #6 shot would blow your mind with what damage it does at 3 yards in gelatin. Full choke barrel is around a 3-4" pattern and does some real damage. No penetration hardly but lots of destruction in 6" of depth.


What blows my mind is people go on shooting and even survive with more than that. 

But most are going to go find another tv even if they might get shot with a 22. I know i would.


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## Jiw275 (Jan 1, 2015)

Macs13 said:


> I'm a flaming liberal. See post above.
> 
> :boom boom boom:
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS998 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


Me too!

.451 diameter


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

johnIV said:


> A 410 with #6 shot would blow your mind with what damage it does at 3 yards in gelatin. Full choke barrel is around a 3-4" pattern and does some real damage. *No penetration hardly** but lots of destruction in 6" of depth.


For starters penetration is one of the primary tests of a defensive projectile :

"To meet the *FBI penetration* standard, a *handgun bullet* must consistently *penetrate *on average a minimum of 12 inches and a maximum or 18 inches into ballistics gelatin." 

And a .410 wound would not be much different than a .40 caliber pistol bullet wound :

*Shotgun Wounds to Other Body Parts*

"Contact or close range wounds (shotgun wounds - 9mmHP) to the thorax or abdomen tend to produce similar wounds to those made by handguns...".

_Forensic Medicine for Medical Students : Gunshot wounds - smoothbore weapons. 
_
9mm Hi-Power

**my highlights*


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> For starters penetration is one of the primary tests of a defensive projectile :
> 
> "To meet the *FBI penetration* standard, a *handgun bullet* must consistently *penetrate *on average a minimum of 12 inches and a maximum or 18 inches into ballistics gelatin."
> 
> ...


6 shot would work fine but if your that particular about FBI testing and statistics, keep the 9mm or another weapon. Simply saying a 410 is a great home defense weapon. #6 shot isn't all that's made for the 410. If it's 00 buck that fits your fancy, run it. Either load will stop an assalaint or intruder. My choice wouldn't be the 410 but I was making a point that it is adequate for the job. I prefer a pistol myself as it's easier to use in a close quarters scenario.


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## Joel/AK (Jan 12, 2013)

Beside an AR or 2 that might be in the house, there might be a double barrel coach gun in 12g. In said barrels could be 2 3/4" #5 turkey . Not to mention in theory their could happen to be a few handguns in reach.

Of course this is hypothetical


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Joel/AK said:


> Beside an AR or 2 that might be in the house, there might be a double barrel coach gun in 12g. In said barrels could be 2 3/4" #5 turkey . Not to mention in theory their could happen to be a few handguns in reach.
> 
> Of course this is hypothetical


Ever hear of a victim of a home invasion say they wished they were less prepared ???


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## jatc (Oct 24, 2008)

How many guys practice shooting at moving targets with their pistols?

Yeah, that’s what I thought.

I’m a decent shot at the range with my 9mm, but in my house, close quarter moving target darting around corners and doors, probably fairly dark to boot....

Give me my 12 gauge Winchester that I’ve killed hundreds of moving critters with. I don’t have to aim, just point and pull. I know it will hit where I’m looking.

And, are we actually asking the question if a shotgun with bird shot is “enough gun” at normal self defense ranges for home invasion (25 ft or less)?


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## Joel/AK (Jan 12, 2013)

Atleast if I die, it wont be because we were hypothetically outgunned.

Seriously though, that little coach gun is a nice cheap gun. Isn't worth much outside the home but dang. I torched off both barrels one time at the range with buckshot, never again.

Wife is comfortable with it so I'm not gonna argue


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## Joel/AK (Jan 12, 2013)

Not only moving targets but fast acquisitions of said targets in the dark and being able to determine armed or not.

Yup


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## Joel/AK (Jan 12, 2013)

Not to mention those cool flashlights and lasers people like on their weapons. You come into my house with those and guess where I'm aim at?

They work but you have to use them right


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## jatc (Oct 24, 2008)

Joel/AK said:


> Not only moving targets but fast acquisitions of said targets in the dark and being able to determine armed or not.
> 
> Yup


I believe you. I also believe that you are in the very small minority of pistol owners that could pull that off.

Just my experience, but it seems like most of the guys I know that have a “nightstand pistol” maybe shoot a box or two through it and decide they are Billy the Kid.

If I ever got desperate enough to turn to crime to feed my family (not likely, but that’s not the point) I would much rather face a disoriented homeowner with a pistol than one holding a twelve gauge. Most guys can’t hit a moving target at 25’ with their 9mm or .45. Especially one that is shooting back with a shotgun.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

jatc said:


> How many guys practice shooting at moving targets with their pistols?
> 
> Yeah, that’s what I thought.
> 
> ...


Good point. You bring up some assumptions tho. Not sure an intruder would be ducking and dodging or darting left and right as their sneaking around in a house looking for items to steal. The shotgun is a good home defense weapon. I just prefer a pistol. Some people have more experience with pistols than others and ya even some do or have practiced for many years on moving targets. Hell, some may have even been in some real ugly scenarios with bad guys and those same moving scenarios. One thing about these forums is, you just never know who your communicating with and what their personal experiences are in weapons or training let alone anything else. Tough to put a label on anyone here regarding what they can or can't do. If I have a question about something I don't know about, I'll ask it of someone that does. Lots of info here from lots of guys that been there done that.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

johnIV said:


> Either load will stop an assalaint or intruder.


What exactly do you mean by "stop" ? Knock him or her to the ground so they are totally neutralized - as in immediate knock down power ? Instantly "stop" them from returning fire assuming they are armed ?

*Bullet Stopping Power From a Doctor’s Point of View*

"If you can blow the heart apart, blood pressure will go to nothing pretty quickly. Well done. Lots of points. But your bad guy still can have a functioning brain for maybe 10 more seconds.

Ten seconds is a _very long time_ in a real fight. During those 10 seconds, muscle function will be pretty normal, so your guy can still do lots of damage. People do Bill drills in two seconds. If your bad guy is a pistolero, he might get two or three of those on you before he passes out. You may both die, but you get more points for drawing first blood." _Truth About Guns
_


jatc said:


> How many guys practice shooting at moving targets with their pistols?


How many guys regularly practice shooting at even static targets after the first month or so of buying a handgun ? Yeah, that's what I also thought .



jatc said:


> Give me my 12 gauge Winchester that I’ve killed hundreds of moving critters with. I don’t have to aim, just point and pull. I know it will hit where I’m looking.


I've seen rated participants in three gun shoots entirely miss a 42" tall "pepper popper" with 1 1/8 of 7 1/2 shot from about 12 - 15 feet in broad daylight and no one was shooting back at them .


9mm Hi-Power


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> What exactly do you mean by "stop" ? Knock him or her to the ground so they are totally neutralized - as in immediate knock down power ? Instantly "stop" them from returning fire assuming they are armed ?
> 
> *Bullet Stopping Power From a Doctor’s Point of View*
> 
> ...


I'm not into theory. I'm into what stops making a person continue to harm or intend on harming a victim. I can only tell you that a shotgun blast from any shotgun using any projectile that fires from one, will stop, kill, disable or send that person to a hospital ( provided it's at close range)where they will not be harming that victim who's home they breeched. That's my only objective when I am defending my home or family. It's not to open up a book and read a doctor's opinion before pulling the trigger when my personal safety is at risk. Many people use meth, crack, heroin and alcohol. Many of those cause different reactions from trauma including a possibly of resistance to pain that results from being shot or struck. These cannot be factored in but a normal functioning human not altered by any of the above will be stopped by a shotgun or projectile of one or more rounds. Too many factors in reality may cause a lack of penetration also. Heavy layers of clothing etc. In general without adding a bunch of what ifs, a shotgun WILL stop an assailant from carrying out his mission. Dead or seriously injured, their mission is over.


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## caseyj (Apr 8, 2001)

I am considering a 410/45 derringer. Thoughts?


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Years ago when I lived in the metro Detroit area, I shot an intruder that broke into my mother's home. He was in her attached garage making his way into her house. One shot stopped him but he didn't stop, he tried leaving the garage the same way he entered. The next shot stopped him from further movement. Police showed up and I ended up in court for months. Started out as a self defense case and ended up as me being charged for shooting an unarmed person. Yes, the entire thing was reversed. I was told if I killed him, I could have been charged with second degree murder. In the end and many dollars later after paying for a defense attorney, I was cleared of any wrong doing. The intruder had a knife that was still in his pocket. He also had a flat bar that he used to access the side service door. That wasn't in his possession at the time the police arrived. I only shot this intruder because he was almost in her home. Had the door into her dwelling breeched already. His defense was that he was looking for food. Not trying to harm anyone. Remember this was years ago in the early 80s when the laws were not stand your ground or black and white. Today the law is much more clear on this. Both my shots were center mass but with a 38 and this individual had several layers of clothing on so the bullets never did any real damage internally. If I had to do it all over back then, that knife would have been in his hand when the police showed up and he'd have one bullet in his head and been expired.


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

johnIV said:


> It's not used much in LE training either. It should be. A few shots at the 3 yard line weak handed was mandatory for our re-qual but definitely not enough.


Segue a little bit away from firearms... 

I’m curious to what MI laws are around self defense with hand to hand combat. 

I know a couple jui jitsu guys that would probably wound you as bad or worse than a bullet by just tangling you up and torquing you the wrong way. 

So say in a hypothetical you had an intruder enter your home (let’s say armed with a knife or pry bar) and you grappled him and snapped a leg or arm. Is there a similarly proportioned legal response for the defender if you immobilized or killed the intruder?


Sent from d_mobile


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Entirely different response than with a firearm or hard weapon. Even tho deadly force is still strikes to the facial area of a person by another, it's met with equal force by an attacker. Same as if an intruder had a gun and had it pointed at you in your home. You could shoot him without facing the need for defense in court for your actions. You feared for your life and thought you were going to be shot and killed. Breaking an assailants arm or leg while trying to subdue or cease his attack is meeting equal force with force. I'm not a legal expert obviously but Michigan has changed dramatically in the last several years benefiting victims. I remember not long ago in Detroit an older lady shot a man trying to access her side door of her home. He wasn't totally inside but wasn't charged for any unlawful act. Not even discharging a firearm in the city limits. EZPZ as it should be. That intruder wasn't there for a friendly visit. Finally we're at a place we should be.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

If your home is invaded your life is threatened.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

DecoySlayer said:


> If your home is invaded your life is threatened.


I know some people who's home has been broken into and personal belongings removed while they slept thru it. Their life wasn't threatened. Only there belongings were in jeopardy of being removed. Who knows what the circumstances would have been if they woke up. Probably much different. I'm with you. If they broke into my personal safe zone (space) confronting me personally, I believe my life is in grave danger. From past experience, that intruder WILL be armed before the scenario ends. That's a guarantee.


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## Macs13 (Apr 24, 2019)

DecoySlayer said:


> OR
> 
> Maybe you missed the humor. Like the use of the "word" "ascared". GEEZ! It is obvious that you don't know me.


Sorry, bro.

I packed a lot of our former fights on here into that reply. That was my fault and I apologize.

While I don't agree with you politically on most things, I'll do my best to move forward and respect your opinion as a fellow American and I believe a firefighter and vet. That's a lot of service that I don't have under my belt. 



Sent from my LG-LS998 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

Macs13 said:


> Sorry, bro.
> 
> I packed a lot of our former fights on here into that reply. That was my fault and I apologize.
> 
> ...


No problem. Yes, I am a vet, former firefighter and former EMT, for the most part, as a volunteer. 

My politics are based on my career serving 20 years in our intelligence service. I learned a lot from that. Things that the "average" citizen won't have learned.


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## jd4223 (Feb 12, 2012)

Like what police officers are trained to say"Using only the amount of force necessary to over come the perpetrators' resistance"


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## Joel/AK (Jan 12, 2013)

I hope I'm never in that situation but If so, hes gonna resist all the way to the end. My family is more important


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Its kinda why law enforcement officers carry tasers and a pistol. They are called levels of force. An officer can't just shoot a civilian because they didn't do what they were told but rather pushed the officer and told him to FO ! Lots of passive resistant or non compliant offenders have been convinced to cooperate once the taser is deployed or used. Never saw anyone shot for any of the above reasons. Sure some have made the bad decision to grab an officers pistol. With double and triple retention holsters, they don't succeed and either get tased or shot for that bad move. Officers must only use the amount of force necessary to stop a suspect depending on the scenario. Since civilians aren't trained that way, they just need to prove that they feared for there life. Did what they thought had to be done. Still doesn't mean they won't go thru the courts and keep there fingers crossed the entire time.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I know people like to POOH-POOH the pocket .380, but if I'm wandering about the homestead that's whats in my pocket. Don't want to climb ladders cleaning gutters and washing windows with anything bigger, thank you. They say little pistols are too hard to shoot. I say with practice anything is good within personal defense ranges, IF the pistol fits you so you can hit shooting from from retention without thinking about it.. And with practice pocket poppers can hit stuff at longer ranges with amazing regularity. I knock off plenty of moving rodents with it that are too close to the cabin up north. My record is a moving chipmunk @ 95'. Never tried much further than the wood line, this one was a corner to corner of the visible clearing shot...... Hell, I don't think I can see much further than that anymore anyhow.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

My day at the range today was spent entirely doing pistol practice; mostly quick pull up, target acquisition, fire drills, one shot at a time. I also did some semi-rapid fire too. I haven't shot all winter and felt a little rusty, but still didn't miss any aiming points by more than a couple inches. I'm fairly ambidextrous, and always shoot some lefty too, but I do have to shut my right eye for those shots. We had the place all to ourselves. My wife and I then went for a hike on state land. Lots of people two-tracking on ATVs and trucks, but nobody deeper into the forest.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Super nice day today. Great day to shoot for sure. Probably should have went to the range as well. Need to break in a couple gun barrels. No better time to do it than right now with all that's going on these days.


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

Super nice day today. Great day to shoot for sure. Probably should have went to the range as well. It's a private range and nobody is ever there. Need to break in a couple gun barrels. No better time to do it than right now with all that's going on these days.


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## Rasher (Oct 14, 2004)

caseyj said:


> I am considering a 410/45 derringer. Thoughts?



I have one, nice gun-got the Bond Arms Snake Slayer that takes 3” .410, shooting either 410 or 45 its a Handful-almost painful, ok as a back up gun wouldn’t want to make it my go to piece.

The Judge or Governor would be better choices for edc.


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## thelastlemming (Sep 11, 2009)

caseyj said:


> I am considering a 410/45 derringer. Thoughts?


If you’re looking for a self defense handgun by a Glock, S&W, or something comparable and be done with it. A derringer is a novelty item. Sure I’d rather have it than nothing but if you’re in a situation requiring deadly force with a gun the guy that you’re shooting at is almost certainly far better armed than what you will be using a poorly sited, two shot derringer.


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## thelastlemming (Sep 11, 2009)

caseyj said:


> I am considering a 410/45 derringer. Thoughts?


If you’re looking for a self defense handgun buy a Glock, S&W, or something comparable and be done with it. A derringer is a novelty item. Sure I’d rather have it than nothing but if you’re in a situation requiring deadly force with a gun the guy that you’re shooting at is almost certainly going to be far better armed than what you will with a poorly sited, two shot derringer. 


johnIV said:


> I know some people who's home has been broken into and personal belongings removed while they slept thru it. Their life wasn't threatened. Only there belongings were in jeopardy of being removed. Who knows what the circumstances would have been if they woke up. Probably much different. I'm with you. If they broke into my personal safe zone (space) confronting me personally, I believe my life is in grave danger. From past experience, that intruder WILL be armed before the scenario ends. That's a guarantee.


Exactly right IMO and there is also a perception factor. I’m a 6’3” man in my early 40’s the threshold to convince a prosecutor or jury that I was in fear for my life shooting an intruder on sight is likely going to be different compared to a 25 year old single woman or even an elderly man.


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## Ken (Dec 6, 2000)

One shot- 54 pellets of #4 buck. I highly doubt they will be on the witness stand


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## duckbuster2 (Aug 14, 2008)

michcats said:


> What sites I could use some more


SGammo


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

Finally finished converting my wife’s 25 yr old youth Mossberg 500 12GA that had never been fired into an HD shotgun.

Bought barrel, pistol grip, and forend a couple years ago, but need the correct length slide tube. Finally got around to ordering one. 

Now just need a day to shoot!











Sent from d_mobile


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## 98885 (Jan 18, 2015)

20 GA ?


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## d_rek (Nov 6, 2013)

johnIV said:


> 20 GA ?


12ga 


Sent from d_mobile


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## Tilden Hunter (Jun 14, 2018)

Here's a link to a U. P. home invasion gone wrong, and it has an unusual twist.
https://www.mininggazette.com/news/2020/04/home-invasion-suspects-arraigned/


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## michcats (Jun 2, 2017)

Better not come round her with a knife my Mossberg 500


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