# Buckshot: To Be or Not to Be



## Brian S (Apr 5, 2002)

Trout, the point I was trying to make was that sometimes, when used with the wrong gun (like my old Rem), buckshot can be suprisingly ineffective. 

A little more effort should be made by the ammo mfgrs and even the DNR to let hunters know that buckshot takes the right equipment and some experimentation. Just because it comes from the barrel of a 12 guage doesn't mean it is deadly at 50, 40 or even 30 yards but I'm sure many first-timers just grab "duh - what else - buckshot" and expect it to be.

No, it wasn't my shooting. 

I ended up getting a Mossberg 835 with a rifled slug barrel. I didn't trust myself to pass on the buck of a lifetime because he was a little too far away.


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## Guest (May 13, 2002)

Bob, in my judgment, I am not the one being selfish, you are. I am not the trying to force my ideology down your throat. You dont like buckshot, do not use it, but I do not understand why you, or anyone else, would want to restrict the people who use it responsibly?

Also, I do not understand how you can say that because I feel most hunters use buckshot responsibly that I do not respect the whitetail deer population. I do not see how the two thought processes are correlated. I respect all animals and all life, but I also respect every humans individual rights. I feel it is fundamentally a social injustice when any group is punished for the misjudgment of a few.

Again, I know of more deer that are wounded and lost to a bow than I know of lost to buckshot, but again, there is no data. This is just an issue of emotion, not fact. I always shutter when our government, in typical liberal fashion, makes decisions based on emotion instead of facts. And if there is evidence there to justify illegalizing buckshot for deer hunting, I reassure you the evidence is there for bow hunting.

Also, if we really wanted one shot, one kill, then we would restrict hunters only to shingle shots. If you only have one shot, most hunters would probably use it more wisely, and any follow up shot is at a running deer, with most hunters just throwing lead into the wind. Ill bet you that most deer that are injured are done so on the follow up shots.

We (the hunting community) should spend more time educating the hunters on how to use buckshot appropriately than trying to restrict the rights of individuals. I think that education is the key, because buckshot is not the true issue. The true issue is shot selection and placement, and if you do not confront the real issue, all you are doing is punishing the innocent.

Also, I am a proud NRA member and I listen to Rush Limbaugh everyday. Unlike the stereotypical NRA member that the liberal media tries to show, I am like most NRA members, a well-educated member of society. I have an MBA, and I am a CPA. So, I do not just spew NRA propaganda. I form my own opinions on the available data, my belief system, and the moral compass that god has provided me.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

As I stated earlier, I use it and am very effective with it. What you are saying Bob, is that I am selfish and dont care about our whitetail pop. just because I stated some ideas to throw out that was political. 

Well I think you are bitter about this and you want EVERYONE to quit using the "cripple load". 

Well I am from the South and think people shouldnt be able to use rifles, but I keep it to myself and it is an opinion. Your opinions are very opinionated and now you are degrading people. I sure am glad your shop isnt around here, because you definately have lost my business. 

Thunderhead, nice thread and I am glad some of us can state our opinions without being rude.


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

[email protected],

I must say, I am surprised too.

I don't agree with you, and I don't agree that you should not stock 00buck.

Obviously 00buck will kill a deer...you agree?
Obviously it is legal in Mi...

You said:
"Add Penn. to the list that finds buckshot unethical. Even to prove my point more, they only allow it in the counties where they are trying to kill off a ton of deer."

Geez...they use buckshot to kill off a ton of deer? Doesn't that fly in the face of your arguement?

Wow, BOB, you and I have agreed on everything....but I cringe when I see a sporting goods store decide whether or not I am an ethical hunter before I even walk thru the door.

I guess it easier to just not stock it, and risk pissing off ethical hunters and risking your business,
then it is to educate your customers on the proper usage of your merchandise they buy.

Not only are you risking ethical hunter business, but your just refusing to change unethical hunter practice by sending them away to buy 00buck at wal-marts.

There are much better ways to deal with your personal dilemna other than losing business by banning a perfectly lethal legal means of deer hunting.

You are in a position to help educate...

I have been in you place a couple times....never said hello...just grabbin some tools necessary to go fishin...

I have to side with SFK on this one...

I don't shop at K-mart
I don't use AOL
I don't shop at gun stores with no ccw policies

I have been banned, regulated, and judged enough....I would like to stop in your store this summer....I'm in the neighborhood often...

Partner....please think this one through before you make a decision.

Hunt


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## Kramer (Mar 9, 2002)

I find it very depressing that so many (not all) of my fellow Sportsman feel thay have the "obligation" or "right" to restrict other Sportsman's methods of hunting. 

This method of hunting has NO NO NO effect on other hunters, yet some of these hunters feel they should "restrict" their hunting brothers. 

Makes me sick.

I wish somebody would erase this whole tread.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

make it a pine-apple.

LOL


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

WOW, This thread certainly did get quite a response.

" Hunters have a need to read the opinions of others"

Right on Trout, how else are we going to determine whats in the best interest of Michigan game animals and the way they are harvested. We're the ones that are out there and see first hand what's going on. I believe it's our responsiblity to do everything in our power to do the best we can for the animals, game and non-game species alike.

SFK........glad ya like the thread....lol
I didn't think it would get this much attention. My friends and I go round and round every year on the buckshot issue and I thought it was worth getting the opnion of others. 

Thanks again to all that posted their feelings and experiences on this issue.

Good Huntin,
Thunderhead


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it."

Old quote from history class, can't remember who said it.

Now my spin off:

"I may disagree with your method of hunting (if it's within the laws) but I will defend to the death, your right to do it."

I don't use buckshot.
I hate when deer are lost/wounded by any means.
I think the laws should stay the way the are.


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## Kramer (Mar 9, 2002)

But some here want the law changed.... because THEY don't hunt that way. That's the BS that gets me.  38% per the poll!

That 38% is probably home watching ROSIE right now.


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## Mptycreel (Jul 23, 2000)

What a tough choice.
I hate making anything 'illegal', but I had to vote to get rid of buckshot.
I think that anybody responsible enough to take a proper(humane) shot with buckshot will put enough time and practice in to hit a deer with a slug. But, there are the people who don't practice and think that buckshot will make up for practice. This spells wounded deer to me.
I just think that too many people don't practice enough. If eliminating buckshot cuts down wounded deer, I would support it.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Just a reminder: 
I should have posted my question a little clearer.
I wanted an opinion as to whether buckshot should be illegal for deer hunting, not banning it all together.

Good Huntin,
Thunderhead


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

OK,

How bout this...

True story- my huntin partner(Rivernut) was huntin state land opening day in Southern MI.

Shot 2 bucks the same morning, both with a slug. Both deer were hit well. Both deer ran over the ridge, and both were shot again by other hunters. Both deer were claimed by the other hunters.

It made my buddy sick.

Now, he uses 1 slug for a kill shot, and a second round of 00buck to wipe out the front legs so the deer stays there.

He won't hunt stateland again without the combo.

I believe Buckshot does have a place.

Hunt


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## Danatodd99 (Dec 26, 2001)

IMO - Buckshot should be illegal.
There are 9 - 12 BB's in a buckshot shell.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but AI don't know for sure where all 9 - 12 BB's are going when I pull the trigger.

I don't intend on pulling the trigger if I can't be sure where all those Bb's are going.

I can be pretty sure when I let a slug go, of the background area and where it is going.

I have a friend that was hit, not wounded but hit by a 00Buck pellet they are .038 dia and it hurt him, but didn't draw blood.


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## Blackeagle (Jun 8, 2002)

Well I voted to keep buckshot. I have a Benelli SBE that I use for just about all my shooting. I have two barrels for it that I use deer hunting, each depending on the situation. The first is a 24" rifled barrel that will, with Fed. Barnes expanders, hold a 2.5-3" group at 120 yards, from a sand bag rest on a target bench. This barrel also has a 1-4X Leupold scope on it. I got beat half to death to find the best shooting slug. The second barrel is a 24" smooth bore shot barrel. For this second barrel I've purchased a Pattern Master choke tube. This is the finest choke tube made anywhere for shooting large steel shot or BUCKSHOT. At 60 yards the pattern of a 3.5" 00 buck load is about 25" X 21" now that is tight. But not really that great for that choke. By the way those patterns were made with both Fed. and Rem. buckshot loads. Winchester buckshot for whatever reason didn't do so hot. I use the Pattern Master in heavy cover where I seldom can see 50 yards. Every where else I use the scoped slug barrel.

Now I haven't shot but one deer using buckshot in this combo above, he was at a messured 46 yards when I shot him. I destroyed a good bit of meat but he droped right there. He had been hit with all 18 pellets of that loading (Fed. 00)

For those interested, or who think I'm full of *&^%$ here is the link for the Pattern Master web site. I bought my tube a couple of years ago, he's now making them even better!! If you take the time to check his site you'll see why I say my patterns arn't that great for this companys tubes.

http:/www.patternmaster.com


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## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

I'm very late to this post, but I've read it all and I must say in general its a pretty darn good debate, this thread should be an example of other threads with such Strong feelings. The problem is here it's sounds like were all pretty dam good hunters, and for the most part passionate about deer and deer hunting, saying that I would allow most of use the use of buckshot on my land. You see the problem there is we (you) passionate ethical hunters only make up a small percentage of guns out in the woods come the 15th. The other larger percentage I wouldn't allow the use of buckshot. No on-line pole here, just think about how you hunt, and how ethical you are and answer the question in your own mind.

Last day of gun season hunting with 00, full choke in a hardwoods with limited underbrush, and a once in a lifetime whitetail steps out at 75 yards. You have one shot, and only one shot. Its not getting any closer.

I'm hoping the majority passes that post on this thread, again we all seem fairly passionate. But fact is most and I mean the majority of hunters would pull the trigger, and that is not the right choice. Now some might say that a slug in the same hands of the majority wouldn't make a difference, well most likely not, but it's not because the slug doesn't perform at that range very consistently, it does with today tech.

Bob, if you still reading this thread, wait until the laws are passed before you stop selling buckshot, people need 00 up in your neck of the woods for home protection lol. And SFK, I imagine you'd find a way to kill deer with a wrist rocket if you had to eat, again lol. I wont kid with the rest of the group, I took my chances with you Clay


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

M.H., I'm still reading it, but didn't feel like taking the heat for making any more posts. Yeah, I've got a bunch of 00 and 000 to get rid of by the end of this season. You make my point better than I did. Rules are made for the majority, not the minority. Unfortunately, the people on this site are not the majority of guys on Nov. 15. M.H., you know what it's like around here on during gun season. I'm embarrassed by a lot of so called hunters that come in the night before opener. Those slobs give "us" a bad name. Let's see what happens for next year. If CWD is present, the NRC may not want to tackle the buckshot and .410 slug problem. If not, it sounds like they are all in agreement, along with nearly every other state, that these are inadequate tools for deer hunting. Anyone that can shoot buckshot can shoot a slug. And, as most of us know, not only is a slug a better choice in thick cover because you only need to pick a small opening, it's better past 25 yards. For home protection at 5 paces, buckshot is great. Remember, they don't want to ban the sale of buckshot and .410 slugs, just their use for hunting deer. They want them classified where they belong, with .22 rimfire and small caliber muzzleloaders. Maybe a ft/lbs requirement would be better. That would still get rid of them.


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## Mike (Nov 26, 2000)

My buddy is a big fan of buckshot. Shoots 'em in the head. They don't tend to go very far.

Mike


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Can't some people read? Nobody is banning the sale of anything. You just won't be able to hunt deer with it. Small pistols are already banned and have been for years. Anything below .35 cal is illegal and unethical. Although, I'm sure some guys make head shots every year with them.  Here's the current Michigan rules for pistols...

A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.


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## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

Ok, heres another example for everybody. A 357 mag is what most hunters say is the smallest handgun suitable for deer hunting. I own a 357 and like Clay said at first when I bought it any animal at any distance was safe because I couldnt hit shi* with it. But after a good year on the range and over 250 rounds later, I was pretty effective on paper up to 50 yards (6-8 inch groups). 

A 165-grain core lokt load shot from a 357 5-½-inch barrel has 1300 fps muzzle velocity. And at 50 yards the fps drops to 1189fps and the load will drop about an inch and a half. 

Premier 00 buck has 9 pellets at the muzzle shot at 1280fps. FPS at 50 yards isnt listed buy most manufactures, but though some independent studies at a local range pellets are running at about 850-900 fps. With a full choke Win-1400 the pattern wasnt measurable at 50 yards, although there were a few pellets in or near the kill zone on each shot.

The debate here isnt whether buckshot can kill deer or not, Im sure everybody knows it can kill deer, but so can a 22-rim fire, thats the debate. Should buckshot be put in the same category as the 22-rim fire, not illegal to own or to posses, just illegal to hunt deer with? 

Back to that 357, hunting with a pistol in gun season, is like hunting with a long bow or recurve in bow season, its a tad bit more difficult. But with tons of practice, and lot of patience its just as consistent, which makes both very deadly. Im willing to bet most pistol hunters are very much aware of their limits, as are most long bow and recurve hunters, and Im also willing to bet they do-not push the limit very often. 

I did end up taking a nice doe the same year I spent endless hours practicing with that 357. The shot was 45 yards open sights and the deer was broad side. My shot was just behind the shoulder and a tad high, and was not a complete pass though; the deer did fall at 90 yards, but with very little blood. I havent hunted with the 357 since, its not that it wont kill deer because I know it will. Ive since upgraded to the 44 mag and had a little better results with bloodtrails and penetration inside 50 yards.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Bob, this post started out about buckshot and now .410s got drug in. I find the .410 an adequate gun for deer. Accuracy is the key in all hunting and the .410 doesn't falter there.

Incidently, one of the biggest deer we processed was shot in the lungs with a .410, I retrieved the slug while skinning it.

What one must consider is the best tool for the job at hand. If I want a light weight, extremely accurate, close range weapon, I will chose my .410 . I don't take it with me every time I go out but it usually sees two or three days in the field during deer season.

Good Luck with the food plots and this years' harvest.

FREEPOP


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

This is Germany. I didn't say it was great deer hunting. I'm just throwing it out there to say look. 
Be carefull what you start you may not be able to stop it once the anti get ahold of it.
I'm not gonna start an argument here. I just think Michigan is a great state with Great deer hunting. Lets just keep it that way.


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## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

Bob, it was just Ray and I. Are you working all day, not a bad idea if the shop had AC. I'll be stopping up a little later at my dads place, my buddy wants to borrow a v-bottem boat over the weekend.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Robert, did you know that just a couple of years ago, it was legal to use buckshot, BB's and #2's for turkeys. The DNR banned their use because hunters were taking too long of shots with them and they were crippling too many birds. The DNR is going to use the exact same reasoning with deer as they did with turkeys when they change this rule.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

I know what your saying. I agree that Buck shot is ify if used at to far a range. I did train with it in the ARMY and it has it's purposes. I do think it should be limited to close range on deer. and if the DNR outlaw it fine I don't use it any way. I primarily bow hun't but that what's really got me worried because I know that a bow is less affective at twenty five yards than buckshot is. That is a fact. I just don't wan't them to eventually say to many people are wounding deer so we are gonna stop that to!!
See where I'm coming from?
Again Bob I'm not arguing with you I do respect your opinion, but I am just worried where this may lead..


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

"what's really got me worried because I know that a bow is less affective at twenty five yards than buckshot is"



I don't agree with that. A 100 grain Thunderhead thru both lungs is as deadly as it gets. Unless you get total penetration with the buckshot that is. I'm going to blow straight thru at that range with an arrow.


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## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

Buckshots more devastating at 25 yards, I'm not sure it's more effective. It's all in the eye's of the beholder.

This is not an issue about taking something away, it's about managing the deer herd. If you want to use Buckshot for crows or coyotes then load up and head out, you just won't be able to use it for whitetails, IF any law is passed. It's no different than rifle and shot gun zones( there not taken your rifle away, there not taken your shotgun away), people argue over that ever year, nothings being taken away, there just rules. 

Another example is steelshot, they've made them rules, they took away our lead for ducks and geese, I was pissed, but I obeyed the law and used the steel. Soon it will be steel shot for up land to, lead will soon be a thing of the past for hunting. There gonna take that away also, it already has been taken away on some states hunting preserves. Is it a Good thing, or is it a Bad thing, it sucks buying steelshot for doves at 8$ a box, but does that make it bad ??


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

"This is not an issue about taking something away, it's about managing the deer herd. "


I don't thinks it has to do with managing the herd, it has to do with buckshot being an effective and consistant round for deer. 
22's will kill a deer at 25 yards easily, but we can't use it because it's not an effective round.

I agree, buckshot is lethel at short ranges. So are 22's, spears, throwing knives and anyone that knows Kung Fu  

I just think it's best to leave the buckshot on the shelf when it comes to deer huntin.

Good discussion guys 

By the way.........your right about the steelshot


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

If buckshot were illegal for deer hunting, then next all hunting, then why make it at all. I can see this spin happening, that is why I'd just as soon not see additional regulations. I side with the guys that think we're being over-regulated.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

I am not going to get into it with anyone, because I do respect others opinions, BUT it is legal and I use it for back up after my slug. I have had in many times I put a nice shot on a deer and it is ready to go over the property line and I put it down with buckshot. Now, could have I placed another slug through it, sure But I would rather have many bullets flying than one, After I have put the slug through it. 

I am for buckshot if used properly in short distances and using a 3 1/2 inch, or 10 gauge, because they have more ass and have more pelletts. 

Anyhow, good discussion. I am PRO BUCKSHOT!


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

I wasn't saying that a bow's isn't effective or deadly. I do 90% of my deer hunting with a bow.
What I am saying is if a guy pull's a shotgun out after not practicing all year and then pull's out some old bow after not practicing for a hole year and he fires at a deer at 25 yrds he is more likly to drop that deer with buckshot. Don't you think?
And let's face it these are the guy's we are talking about. The guy's who don't put the time or effort into it that most of us do. I practice alot and I know that if I shot at a deer with anything I own I could kill it at twenty five yards. I am just saying from the point of wounded and lost deer bow's I think probably account for more than buckshot. So if they outlaw that were does it leave us.


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

I'll take up drag and provide grazing to delay while you guys move.

Why is it some people keep repeating the mantra that buckshot is a cripple load. when they advocate that a pointy stick with little "knockdown" power is so much more effective? I am a bowhunter have been for over thirty years. I am proud to say that I have taken many fine animals with my bow. And I owe it all to the countless hours of practice and getting to know what the limitations are for my equipment and for myself. But there is always that small variable everytime I draw back my bow on an animal standing broadside at 25 yards. there are countless reasons why an arrow will miss it's mark by only a few inches and a few inches does matter when using a bow. Take the same deer standing at 25 yards and let me shoot at it in my patterened 870 with Federal 3 inch 00buck which at 25 yards has a pattern the size of a serving platter and WILL have devestating killing and knockdown power. In that sceneraio I am guaranteed that the animal will go down right now. No guess work I have done it, more than once. I also know that 50 yards is my limit for a clean kill on a deer with this same weapon. How do I know? As a responsible ethical hunter I spent many hours on the range to find out. Let me ask a silly question to all of you people who think buckshot are marginal for deer. would you rather have someone shoot at you from 25 yards with a bow or with a 12 gauge shotgun that the shooter has taken the time to find out what buckshot works best in this weapon? For all of you who are going to say that deer are tougher than humans and it's not the same let me say that after 10 years in the army as a combat medic. A year of that in Vietnam, and almost 25 years as a paramedic working in Detroit I can say that is hogwash. If you are hit in a vital area man or beast you die. Plain and simple. Deer run even after a fatal hit because they don't know any better. they don't know that there are going to be follow up shots. and die within 10 of 15 seconds Man on the other hand when he is hit seeks cover and usually dies there within 10 or 15 seconds. and for those who do run after 10 seconds they only make it a few yards. Deer are just faster runners, not harder to kill. So for me I would rather take my chance with a bow hunter taking a shot at me from 25 yards, better chance of him missing a vital area with an arrow. Even with an "expert" bow shot there is always a chance that the arrow will "just miss" a vital area. With buckshot at 25 yards. You are 100% guaranteed dead.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Nice Post R Kidd


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

If I were going to be put on a wall and executed, and I had my choice of those three weapons It would have to be by shotgun first, .45acp second and I would rather bash my own head on the wall than be shot with an arrow, Don't get me wrong an arrow is deadly as hell in the right hands, If it wern't I wouldn't use it for deer myself. But I have confidence in MY ability to use it. I have no confidence in anybody elses ability if it came to me being on the other end of it. Let me end this by saying that I knew many,many guys who carried shotguns loaded with 00 buck during my time in the military. These wern't guys who didn't know what they were doing. these were trained professionals who wanted to use the most dvestating means of killing the enemy they could lay their hands on. I am not talking long range shots across big fields with perfect sight pictures at stationary or walking targets. I am talking in close 25 meters or less through thick brush and these targets are shooting back. all I can say is that I have treated many men with rifle wounds in that situation and most of them lived. I have treated very few of them with 00 buck wounds. Not because there wern't any. But because the one's that were hit were dead, or so close to death all I could do was give them a ride on the horse (morphine) so it would at least be pain free.


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## trapstercarl (Oct 2, 2001)

you really want to talk about crippling animals with shot? how about turkeys? should we ban turkey loads and go to rifles? carl


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

With all due respect Randy, I'd like to see how far a man would run shot in the guts, or leg for that matter, at 25 yards compared to a deer. If your shooting 50 yrds. with a patteren tight enough to put most of the shot in the kill area, it's entirely possible to do this and not hit vitals. The patteren would HAVE to be softball size at 25 to pattern that well at 50. 
You'll find the guy dropped in his tracks, but you'll jump that deer for a mile, or better. Sure, it's dead as a doornail, but I hope the guy doing the shooting can track.

There is no way you can compare a wound reaction and time to death to a humans. Ever see a guy get his leg blown off and survive to full recovery with no medical attention? How bout both feet? How bout a man completly full of infection still able to care for himself and RUN away when approached? Deer have and do.
I've seen deer harvested with these old wounds that were still functioning normaly. No man with these afflictions could survive for any amount of time let alone take flight.

This all goes back to the same argument, skill and knowing your weapon.
Somebody tell me.........What was the reason behind the DNR not allowing 22s, pistols under 36 caliber, birdshot etc.... for deer hunting? These all all deadly deer rounds in the right hands.
What was their reasoning?


P.S. 
This response wasn't so much as to downplay the power of buckshot at the specified ranges ( even tho I still think buckshot has no place in the deer woods) , as a mis-placed slug would have pretty much the same effect. It's more about the reaction of a deer vs human reaction to a devastating wound.
There is no comparison.


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

To answer a few of your questions, Yes I have seen gut shot men survive quite a long time. death can take a few minutes to as long as days to happen depends on what is hit. same in man as it is in animals. if a major artery is hit you both die very fast. if no major arteries are hit peritonitis is usually what kills you if shock doesn't first, and that can take days. I have also seen men with arms and legs blown off from a variety of things from small arms fire to rpg rounds, 122mm rockets, mortar rounds ect, you would be surprised what a man can do in that situation. If it was a sudden and complete amputation the major arteries and veins do a nifty little trick, they retract like a night crawler you are trying to catch, then the muscles tighten around them shutting off the blood flow. Men can survive without medical treatment for quite some time, Although infection will usually get them if not treated but it can take days or even weeks to do that. As far as men moving in those situations like deer do when they are jumped. Well I havn't seen too many men run but I have seen some continue to fight. In our culture these guys are called heroes men who continue to fight with severe wounds. It happens all the time. It is a natural reaction to flee or fight, Deer being prey animals tend to flee and they do that very well. Men would rather fight. 
Also I disagree that the pattern HAS to be softball size at 25-50 yards. As I have said my shotgun patterns about the size of a serving platter at 25 yards and a little larger than a garbage can lid at 50. with 12 pellets of .30 cal size going into that area it is pretty certain that a vital is going to be hit.I know I have never lost a deer in that situation.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

Crude medical attention? Luck ? Sounds like sick call. 
What kills me is no body has addressed what I said in an earlier post about bow's
They are not as powerfull as a slug why is no one attacking them?? Also how about the hand gun issue have I missed that ?
I never saw a response on that a 38 speciall is still legal isin't it??????????????


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Randy, thanks for sharing your experiences and observations, tho it makes me more than a little sad and hurts my heart that anyone should have to go thru such things. 

Robert - People aren't attacking bows because :
#1 - This is a thread about buckshot.
#2 - A bow fires one projectile with a very limited range. Buckshot has up to 15 or so pellets, also with a very limited range.
Bow hunters and gun hunters are a totaly different breed. 
Bow shots are contemplated, and evaluated ( because there is much more time to do so ) before the arrow is released and is fired at an unsuspecting deer. Much more often than not, the situation is totaly different with a gun. By that I mean the circumstances involved in a shot at a deer in gun season is alot different than during bow season. 

Now, I'm trying like hell to get my meaning across, and it's so damn hard trying to express yourself in the written word, but I'll try anyway.

Givin the whole, gun hunters and bow hunters, the majority of bow hunters encounter unpressured deer, thus allowing time to pick your shot, wait for the right angle, and judge range. A bow hunter has one shot. He knows that. He knows what speed his arrow is travling. He knows his effective range and trajectory.
He has time to think.

Again, I'm talking about a whole, - 
A gun hunter is hunting an extremely pressured and highly alert animal. Most don't practice anywhere near what a bowhunter does. Most have no idea of penetration of shot and patterns at specific ranges. Shots are hurried. Ranges are mis-judged. If a bow hunter hurries a shot or mis-judges range, the typical senario is a miss.
A guy using buckshot usually results in pellets scattered all over the deers body. One projectile vs 15 or more. Buckshot has 15 times more chance of hitting and wounding in this case.

As a man that's worked in a processing plant, and has a friend that owns his own and does upwards of 1000 deer per year, I know what I'm talking about. I've seen many, many more buckshot peppered deer than I've ever seen broadhead wounds. For every deer that has come in with a non-lethel broadhead wound, I'll show you 10 that have been peppered with buckshot. Don't take my word for it, go to the nearest large processing plant this deer season and see for yourself. I guarantee it'll make you think twice.

Now, I'm sure buckshot in the hands of the likes of Randy, or SFK is going to be deadly, but what about the other 800,000 guys?

In Woods and Waters a couple of years ago there was an article on the new state record. The jist of it was centered around this kid that borrowed a gun, shells, coat and went with his friend on a whim. He used buckshot with slug backers. His first round being buckshot. 
He fired at the deer 100 YARDS AWAY !! Hit it in the leg, took off RUNNING after it and SHOOTING. Needless to say, I was on the phone with Randy Jorgensen in a flash asking just what the hell they thought they were doing printing this bull$hit. 

#1 Shooting 100 yards with buckshot, - a hangin offense.

#2 Borrowed gun, no idea where it was zeroed 
or how it patterned.- 20 lashes.

#3 Running after the deer and shooting- total lack of gun saftey, not to mention anyone unlucky enough to be on the down range side of this idiots attempt to harvest a buck. - Total a$$ kickin offense and loss of hunting privliges till hell freezes over.

Point being, every kid in the state that read that article is now going to think buckshot is the ultimate substitue for accuracy.

I'm going back to my orginal question:

What was the reason behind the DNR not allowing 22s, pistols under 36 caliber, birdshot etc.... for deer hunting? These are all deadly deer rounds in the right hands.
What do you think their reasoning was behind this desision?


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2002)

I can not believe that this thread is still going, pretty hot topic. Can not add anything to the topic that I didn't already add.


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## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

Still going or not, Thunderheads last post was pretty damn good..His best yet.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Interesting Clay, but I doubt everybody that shoots buckshot has a Vang Comp shotgun. This is the first I've ever heard of them. They do seem to make a world of difference and is the best pattern using buckshot I've ever seen. Curious as to what the price and availability of these types of guns are?
As for the other shotgun right out of the box, that pattern isn't the best, and is more than not, the type of gun the average joe is using. Using the pic of the gun with an 18 in. barrel as a measure, the shotgun right out of the box has a pattern thats pretty widespread. Shooting at a deer, the distance from the top pellet to the bottom is ify at best.
I still stand by my original opinion.


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

I have killed deer with both slugs and buckshot. Have never shot at a deer further than 50 or 60 yards away. Several bucks that were double-lung shots with slugs traveled a hundred yards or so. All buckshot kills didn't go anywhere. I shoot 3" mag. Remington 00 buckshot out of a Rem. 1187 12ga. w/full-choke tube. The pattern at 35yds. is 18"wide, and 36" high. I use this setup when still hunting down in the cedar swamps, or on a stand in heavy cover. The farthest buckshot kill was about a 30yd. shot. At that range several of the pellets passed clean through the rib cage and were laying just under the skin on the opposing side.


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## jdt (Jun 30, 2002)

i use no-1 buck up to 30 yds with my 870 full,it patterns better then 00 for me.the deer went in a ten yard circle and dropped
i rarely use a shotgun because iam in the rifle zone.


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## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

Vang Comp is a up-grade system for all shot guns, they can modify pretty much all shotguns. I think the gun in the pictue is a 870 with an Vang Comp system..


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## fishandhunt (Dec 14, 2000)

I understand the Hevi-Shot is a few weeks away from offering 00 buck.


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

REPEAT AFTER ME....
Rifles's iz fer deer - shOtgunZ is fer birds!!!! 
I hear similiar stuff myself about bowhunting cuz I use 100 gr. Muzzy heads on my OLD Browning bow....
Someone always has to brag how their mechanical broadheads damn near slice a deer in half....THE HOLE IS HUGE!!
SFW , I say! ... you put a leak in the boiler room & they're goin' down - PERIOD.
I used a 20 Ga. for years on deer , and I never once put Buckshot in there , because I believe in aim -N- squeeze as opposed to point & pull !!
I still have slugs for the 20Ga. & If I had to hunt further south I would STILL USE A SLUG.
*To each their own...* 
Slugs require aiming though!!!!
... hehehehe..
Let the mud slinging begin!!!


> Comments???


BTW Clay where's the scope on the gun?? Ohyea ~~ Shotguns won't shoot FAR enough to require a scope!!!!!!!!!!!
LMAO!!!!
 Woooooooo HHHooooooooooooooooooooooo! !!!! !!! 


wink , wink , nudge , nudge , smirk , smirk !!!!


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

OK Clay , lets' ANALyze this text......



> wink , wink , nudge , nudge , smirk , smirk !!!!


I guess it's all fun & games until somebody loses an eye.....
It was supposed to be point , counter-point.....




> You're just trying make a few jokes here right?



YES....


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Normal? Anyone that can shoot 600 yards with open sights and hit what they're aiming at isn't normal.  Hell, I can't even see 600 yards.


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## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

Yeah I'm glad sfw was just kidding around also. People start making smart ass comments about mechanical heads and I just about loose it...


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

Yeah but like you said one puff and that target may not (ting).
 
Then you would have to track it down and shot it with buckshot


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

SFK , You Sir - I think just gave me about the CLOSEST thing to a compliment I am able to get out of you....


> Glad to hear you were joking SFW. You are one of the few here that makes me look normal sometimes.


Either I'm not QUITE the weirdo , I am sometimes made out to be (By myself as well as others !) or you are damn near as gooFy as me!!!! lol

Buckshot is fine - I prefer SlugZ Though..... I like watching that big "meat stick" push out the other side of the ribcage heh 
AFA my '06 is concerned - I won't try much over 200 yds. and even then I am gunna cop a lean on sumthin'....

*mechanical head....* As for you sir... hehehe -- just like a mechanical head coming 'unglued' when the moment of truth arrives....lol 
MuZZy 100 Gr. 3 blade 1" cut dia. makes 'em leak just fine..... and they KRUNCH bone without falling to pieces !!!
((WWWWWWWWWOOOOPS!! thinkin' out loud!!))
hehehe
Sorry 'bout 'dat!
 Robert


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## spawnbag (Feb 27, 2002)

I hate buckshot. seen to many lost to it


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Man I'm way late to this debate and I have a serious headache from reading some of the stink that has been spewed! 
Anyway, I've only killed 5 deer with buckshot, all under 40 yards and on two of those deer, had complete pass through with most of the pellets. The load used was Remington Premier with the nickel plated shot. I feel that the majority of the people that are against buckshot have never even tried the stuff before. They hear a few stories about how so and so wounded this deer...blah blah blah. Newsflash for all the doubters.....There is no weapon that is an efficient deer killer in the hands of an idiot!!! And there are just as many idiots in the woods with .300 magnums as there are with buckshot. Just because a .300 mag has enough energy to kill a deer at 600 yards does not mean that it is a better deer killer than buckshot. It depends completely on the shooter....go back and read that again, completely on the shooter. And all this nonsense about ballistics and ft-lbs?? Ft-lbs does not kill a deer, damage to vital organs kills deer. Ft-lbs is a theory, no more, no less. And quoting ballistics from a manual or website? They are computer generated.....barely helpful in the real world. I'm being a little sarcastic here, but those that actually know a thing or two about ballistics understand what I'm trying to say. 

Buckshot is as effective as the person pulling the trigger, no more, no less.
Slugs are as effective as the person pulling the trigger, no more, no less. It really is that simple.
I suppose those that want to ban buckshot also voted against hunting bears with dogs?? 
As far as I'm concerned if its a legal method of hunting than I support you.
I don't use buckshot anymore, not because I don't think its effective, I just don't hunt in the shotgun zone much and when I do, its in areas that are not suitable for buckshot. My scoped 870 with rifled barrel and Barnes Expanders are more than capable taking deer at ranges that might scare many slug guns..LOL (as long as I'm the one pulling the trigger).
And I do use a rifle most times which ofcourse has been mentioned that its not sporting either....No hollier than thou attitudes in our deer woods.....
I don't care what you use, just be safe, pick your shots, and enjoy the season.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

SM, have you read a ballistics manual?. Nothing you said is based on anything but your own opinion. 
Ballistics and ft-lbs are nonsense? 
Newsflash..........Your post is rude, self-important and insulting.
Go back and read THAT again.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Prove to me that ft-lbs is not a mathematical figure????
Have you ever heard of the Taylors KO theory. Another Theory, thats it. You honestly think a deer feels all of those supposedly ft-lbs of energy that you dump into him when hit with a slug( or any bullet). If they did, they'd be knocked off there feet every time you pulled the trigger. Prove to me that the bullet actually makes all the energy(ft-lbs) the ballistic charts tell you they do. You might be good, but you ain't that good..and neither am I LOL. Its a mathematical theory. Now if you think that all those ballistic charts we read are all based on actual load firing, your nuts. The tech jockies at Remington, Federal or whoever punch load info such as powder weight, primer, bullet weight, yada, yada, into a program and walha. a balistic chart for that load. Now, they have it down to a science and get it pretty close but every gun is different, hence different results.
I never once said ballistics is nonsense....read it again. I said there was nonsense written about ballistics. I'll say it again, a mathematical equation does not kill deer. There was some nonsense spewed earlier about having a minimul ft-lbs requirement. That is absurd. Kiss your your bow good bye cause it doesn't carry the ft-lbs that a little .22 does. But it has a sharp blades that do Tissue Damage. Tissue Damage being the key words! Maybe you have never seen a deer hammered with buckshot but the tissue damage (vitals) are a wreck. Not necessarily more or less damage than a slug, but more than enough to cleanly kill a deer.
Its the person behind the gun that does the killing, not the load. Thunderhead, I have to believe that if you wanted to hunt deer and all that was available was buckshot, you'd do just fine. I think this because I highly doubt your one of the idiots out there that shouldn't be, regardless of the weapon and load they choose to use. We all know a few people that shouldn't be in the woods, even if they have a weapon that we deem suitable.
And to answer your question, I have numerous ballistic tables and loading manuals. I prefer to role my own ammo when using a rifle. Soon I'l be rolling my own shotgun ammo. There's a satisfaction in talking a deer with a load that you created to be perfect for the situation your in.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

SM, I didn't so much disagree with what you said, but the way you said it. 
Yes, I have seen what a load of buck shot will do.
I was a professional butcher for years and threw away more infection riddled meat that I care to think about. By the way, 99% of these ruined deer were brought down by a bullet or slug well after they were peppered with buckshot. If you doubt what I say, take a cruise about 7 days into season and stop by a few meat processing plants. Don'y take my word for it, see for yourself.
Ask the butcher how many deer he processes that are clean buckshot kills, vs. Slug kills. Ask him how many deer he's seen infected to the point of throwing the whole thing away because of being shot with buckshot. The answer will suprise as well as sickin you.

Yes, buckshot will kill deer. Any weapon in the hands of an expert will kill deer, be it a knife, spear, or modern rifle.

The reason the DNR doesn't allow 22s for deer hunting anymore is that in the hands of the average joe, it's not consistantly effective. The same should apply to buckshot. 
If only 10 to 20 % of the 750,000 hunters using buckshot are effective with this load, does it make it right to keep it? ( I'm guessing on the % here, but probably close)

I asked the question earlier in this thread about why the banning of 22s for deer and this was a members response:

"My guess would be that this ammo (.22, birdshot, < .36) didn't have enough power to kill in the hands of the common hunter. Or the one who was using it outside his/her limitations"

Which is my point exactly.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Thunderhead, I apologize for coming off the way I did. It was not meant to you directly or anybody else for that matter. I could have said what I said with out the emotion thrown in. 
And I don't doubt your experience butchering deer either. I know Buckshot wounds, but so does every method used to harvest deer. I'm not the type of person that likes to give up my rights because a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us. I think better education is a start but won't completely solve everything. I have to disagree with your numbers in the previous post....I think I know what you meant though. You said 750,000 hunters use buckshot? That would mean almost every hunter in the woods is using buckshot. I would guess that there are only 30-35% of all hunters that are effective with their weapon of choice in reality, regardless what they hunt with. Come to my local gun club on public sight in days and you might consider sleeping in on opening morning!!! It can be pretty scary!
To your answer about the earlier question on banning .22's etc. I would add that the average hunter doesn't have the marksmanship skills to make clean kills with such weapons. Power is in no way a substitute for accuracy, although many feel it is. Bullet placement is king. I also think they were banned because those small calibers were (are) the weapon of choice for poachers. Kind of like banning large treble hooks. 
I will not argue that slugs are a superior load, I feel they are. I just have a hard time excepting the fact that buckshot is ballistically inferior based on what a ballistic chart says. Those charts only tell a part of the story.
Anyway, I'm headed to the woods to check some of those Hawgs scrapes I made and freshin up a bit. I'll be back on Monday.
Again, Thunderhead my apologies for coming off as an a$$


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

No problem SM, I realize this can be an emotional subject. 
Opppps your right about my numbers. I meant to say 20 to 30 % of the 750,000 hunters....lol.
I agree with you that a guy should be intimately familiar with his weapon of choice. There are way too many guys that go out to the range the night before the opener, fire a couple of rounds and call it good. I use the same gun every year and am fully aware what the old girl is capable of, but still run 10 - 12 boxes thru it just to get used to the recoil again.

Good Luck this season and be safe.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

It's not just some Clay............it's the majority. I'm telling you guys that think it's just a few instances of wounding with buckshot. Visit a number of processing shops or call and ask. Get the opinion of the guys that see the real deal. Alot of these folks get upwards of 1000 deer per season or more, then tell me I'm wrong.

Yeah, yeah I know, slugs wound too, but the instances of buckshot deer surviving to turn into a big bag of puss by far out weigh those wounded by a slug. I've seen it year after year with my own eyes. Go see for yourselves.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

the i's have it.

buckshot sucks.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

LMAO!!!!!! SFK, That is a good one!! Very funny


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

What if the question were asked this way.....

Would the deer herd and deer hunting in general be improved if buck shot were banned and only more lethal ammunition were allowed? If you make this an argument about hunters rights, SFK is your man. If you make this an argument about the longer term health of the deer herd and deer hunting, Bob is your man. 

I personally think quality deer hunting is what everyone wants here. If you fear the loss of buck shot as an option, I have a question for you. Do you (1) agree with the need for regulations to protect deer hunting and (2) do you follow the regulations that exist today. If your answer to either is yes, why?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Okay, I'll hop in here but only because of what I've recently read. American Sportman or something like that, I get it free as an NRA member, just ran an article about shotguns in the military. They've been there for a long time and it looks as though they are there to stay. If this is such and inadequate weapon, one can only wonder why in the world they would do something like that.


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

mich buckmaster ,
A hundred sixty-five grains is a good number to use on veni-veal...
As you probably are quite aware of... Whitetail are very light hung carcassed critters and usually a hi-velocity round expands very little unless it contacts bone .... like a rib or 'blade -- that lil green hunk O' plastic blossoms the projectile pretty nicely unless I go and fire at one of those poor brown-downs - point blank(pass thru - usually) . If I wanted to "blow up the venison" I'd use one of those dang 55 Gr. sabot varmint rds. or say a Winchester 125 gr. Super-X® Pointed Soft Point (3140 fps @ muzl) -- I used them before... talk about BLACK -N- BLUE !!!!!!!!
What was that schlameel about hydrostatic shock and "theories" I was reading earlier about???
lmao!!! It's JUST a theory !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    
now as fer BuKShOT... hehehe Thar's some hydree-splatic shOk thar , verN... NoWuTahMeeN?


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

God, I can't get away from this thread! LOL Freepop, in a way, your question illustrates my point. (Also I want to add that I'm not personally bad mouthing anyone who hunts with buckshot. The theme of this thread is 'should buckshot remain legal for whitetail?' I'm the 'NO' guy.) The buckshot in the military, police and SWAT teams is used mostly to maim, disembowel and diminish fighting capacity, not necessarily kill at very close range combat. An enemy soldier with a buckshot pellet in his foot, forearm and gut is no longer 100% effective. Shoot into a crowd running at you and you'll hit some, maybe all. It's a greater burden to the enemy to severely wound their troops, not kill. That's why in WWII, the Japanese switched to .25 cal wooden bullets. Shoot one American with a good 7.7mm, he's dead and his buddies fight on. Shoot him with the wooden .25, he's crippled, it takes two guys to carry him out, one to drive or fly him farther out and then hospital workers. Why do you think we switched to the .223? Same reason, plus cost. Here's a couple pastes and links you might be interested in. The second is very important and recommends that it should not be used passed 15 yards. Which I agree with. Any shots at 10 yards are fine. This is just U.S Army speak for "we can cripple even more with #4 buck than 00 buck"..."It was determined that smaller size shot, such as No. 4 Buckshot, would be better suited to certain types of combat situations than the standardized 00-buckshot. To this end, ammunition of this type was adopted as Shell, Shotgun, Plastic Case, No. 4 Buck, Special, XM257. 
"Generally, the column of buckshot leaving a shorter barrelled shotgun will stay together for a little past one yard, after which it tends to spread approximately one inch per yard. This means that most shotguns have trouble keeping all the pellets of a standard nine-pellet 00 buck load on a stationary, police silhouette target, faced squarely, past 15 yards."

http://home.earthlink.net/~spwenger/spwlnggn.html
http://www.americanrifleman.org/features/view_feature.asp?ID=757&child=yes


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Interesting info...about ranges for home defense and the wounding of humans...
"In general, remember that the larger the shot size, the greater the effective range and penetration. Farnam and Suarez both concur that the maximum effective range of buckshot, for defensive purposes, is around 25 yards."
"Lastly, the maximum effective range of rifles is typically greater than the range of any shotgun. Ken Hackathorn, in an article entitled "Combat Shotgun Shooting" in Modern Firearms magazine, opines that shotgun is best suited for ranges of 25 meters or less."
http://members.tripod.com/~jth8260/shotgun.html


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

I wonder what the all time record for number of hits on a post is?
This one is fast approaching 5000.


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

Steve??
You're the record keeper too!!


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## Dom (Sep 19, 2002)

Either you love it or hate -- count me in the hate crowd. When deer grow wings is when I'll start using buckshot. Actually I could see using it if my vision was 20 yards or less, but with today's modern slug guns, and most places I can see further than 30 yards, why handicap yourself. Sorta like luck that one of those pellets is going to find the vital zone at any distance past 20 or 30 yards -- . Now if they were flying . . . Waidmannsheil, Dom.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Bob, I'm not really sure what you meant by saying this has opened your eyes about hunting sites and who you may end up having a debate with. Interesting comment though. When you debate with people that have actual experience with the material in the thread it can be tuff to prove a point with nothing but cut and pastes and second hand info. I'm glad you grew up with experienced shooters and you were a succesful skeet shooter, but that really has no relevance in the effectiveness of buckshot on deer. The 50's and 60's were long ago, buckshot loads and chokes etc are far better today than they were back then. They still are a limited range game ofcourse. Those who have argued this have said that all along. Anyway, good luck this fall with whatever method you choose and I hope the slamon are plentifull and willing.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

What I meant by that, and it certainly wasn't directed at you or anyone specifically, was that sometimes it's clear that when I'm trying to have a discussion or debate about an advanced philosophy about deer hunting, the person I'm debating with may have only been hunting for 5 years or less and only killed a couple deer, or none at all, and is more the novice than expert and is maybe just looking for information instead of me brow beating him. When I said, "I'm the 'NO' guy", I meant that I enjoy the debate here. It's almost a game. Kind of like the show 'Crossfire" or "Mcloughlin (spelling?) Group". I enjoy going back and forth and trying to "one up" the guy that's for buckshot. I'm not trying to be a mean guy or pick on someone because they use buckshot. It's perfectly legal. Currently. LOL The eye opener is that I think some people are probably screaming at their screens when they read my post for 'NO' and when I'm doing it, I'm just pointing out why I don't like buckshot. But I think some probably think I'm a real a$$h0le because of either my stance or I come across as a know it all. There's a lot of guys here that are just beginners and are just looking for info. They've never met me and probably have little idea what I'm talking about or even why I take this position. I have the benefit of having been in the sporting good business for a while and had some amazing teachers for shooting and hunting. I should probably keep some of my opinions to myself. With the internet, it is very tough to tell who you're talking to. Is it a kid just yanking a chain? A novice? Or an expert who happens to disagree? See my point?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Bob, well and good. If it were me though, my intension would not be to cripple someone because he will still have a gun in his hand and at that short of range, it could prove fatal to ME!

Cut and paste from your links:

"While not well suited for all types of combat applications, shotguns proved to be of value in many engagements during the Vietnam War."

"It is reported that American units armed with shotguns had higher body counts than similar units without shotguns. "

Does that means wounded? 

"In certain combat situations, there is no deadlier arm than a slide-action shotgun loaded with buckshot. "

Deadly, does that mean crippling?

"Lastly, the maximum effective range of rifles is typically greater than the range of any shotgun. "

Duhhhh!

It seems that your links provided me the info to prove my point.

Good debate Bob, I guess you can count me in the "Yes" crowd. 

Best of luck this fall to you and yours.

FREEPOP

P.S. I'm not a kid or a beginner, read my profile young man.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Oh, I'm completely certain that buckshot is deadly on deer and humans. The only question is when they die. I deer hit in the guts with one pellet will probably die, but will it be 3 days later or will he go a 1/2 mile before his final lay down?


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

YIKES, I told myself I was done talking about this but........ 
I think I have yet to see a solid reason to even use buckshot stated on this thread.

Ok, so answer me this guys. Why do you use buckshot?

Most of the people praising it are telling us in the same breath what a great shot they are. 

All shots made with buckshot can be made with a slug, and with better results. Please, none of this shooting thru brush crap, I've been killing deer consistantly for 26 years and hunt some of the baddest bush around and know that there are many , many openings, even in the thickest stuff. Besides, if the stuff that your shooting thru is so thick that a person can hardly see thru it, a shot shouldn't be taken anyway. If it's not a subsistute for acuracy, then what?

Well said on your last post Bob, I've seen this happen countless times.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Not that I want to make light of a wounded deer, but one of the guys who works here, after reading this huge thread, joked that we should have a buckshot special this season to get rid of our stock. Buy one box of buckshot, get your compass and flashlight free. You'll need it for tracking. Bad joke I guess, but we found the humor. Like I said, the season is only days away, lets enjoy it.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Thunder, I don't use buckshot but I don't believe it should be eliminated as an option. The only time I have used buckshot, 26 years ago, is when I only had one gun, an H & R Topper 28" barrel full choke. You could litterally shoot slugs around corners with that thing. Had a very frustrating beginning of the season, missed several nice bucks, then someone gave me some 00 buck and the next one didn't walk away. What was the most cost effective option? My parents were divorced, my dad lived out of state and I had no one to help, or borrow a gun from, I didn't have much of a clue then.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Bob, I see your point and I have to agree. And I'll add that I'm not one of those folks who think your an a$$ LOL! I'm as opinionated as the next guy and just as passionate about hunting as many are on this site. And really no matter what either of us have to say or show, we won't change the others mind. Now, the NRC, or DNR may have the last word and thats fine. It won't really effect the methods I choose to use and I would abide by the law. But you have to admit, that some of the regulations we have (and other states) are politicaly motivated, not scientific. Anyway, it is a good debate, albeit emotional. But how good is a debate without a little emotion, I mean you have to feel strongly about an issue to really debate it in the first place. 
A funny side note about shooting skeet; I shot my first round when I was about 13 or so and I shot 18 out of 20! I thought I was top dog! The very next round....0 for 20!! I was put in my place rather quickly!! That little clay disc will humble ya! I don't think I have come very close to matching that first round yet LOL!


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

He sitting there over a 12 gauge swabing the barrel and double checking his buckshot 
I sure feal sorry for the first deer that comes by him this year


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

C'mon you guys. All this military talk of sniper training and advanced shooting skills would lead me to believe that a heavy load of birdshot would be unnessary for deer hunting for an expert shot. 

Which leads back to my earlier question: If not a substitute for acuracy, then what good is it?

How about a real answer? 
Why would you use it ?

Thick cover is not an option. I've been hunting wayyyyy too long to even consider that.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Swamp Monster, I said I was "junior" state champ. That was many moons ago. Skeet shooting requires a ton of practice. I shot 3 days a week and a couple cases of ammo a week. I'm very rusty now. Last winter I joined up at the local gun club for a winter skeet league. While I still shot mainly 21-23, I was still very rusty. Then I finally shot a straight. To be honest with you, I was so geeked up and nervous after I broke the second bird on 8 low, that my hand was shaking a bit. I can be very competitive, especially against myself. Hopefully I'll make more time to join another winter league soon. But it's a little humbling when you don't shoot for a while.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I'm with FREEPOP, when I started out, I had a 20 gauge pump with a 28" full choke barrel. 40 yards was about maximum with every slug I tried. My step father let me use his 12 gauge with a 30" full choke barrel. Same results. I tried 00 buck and it patterned it with excellent results out to about 50 yards. At 35-40 yards it would disinigrate a paper plate. And where I hunted 40 yards was a long shot. Buckshot was an exccellent alternative it that situation, I had complete confidence and that can make a difference. The first 4 deer I shot were with buckshot. I thne upgraded to slug barrels and scopes etc, the rest is history. 15-16 years ago, slug technology was just starting to take off and I didn't have the $$ to invest in a rifled barrell, sabot slugs etc. Now, years later, I have a dedicated slug gun that I have complete confidence in. I'm pretty lucky I feel, because I know that many are forced to use whatever they have in the closet and sometimes buckshot may be a very reliable choice in some of those guns.
On a side note, I feel that old 12 gauge was good with buckshot because it had a fixed full choke. Todays screw in chokes tend to constrict shot faster and therefore deform more pellets. The longer constriction of that fixed choke didn't deform as many pellets in my experience. This is just my theory.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

SM and Freepop, I do agree with you on this point. If it's all you have, then by all means use it. I never said buckshot wouldn't kill a deer, but I would definatly limit my shots to 20 yards.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

I never meant to get anything started with that I was just messing with Clay.
 
I do 99.9% of my shooting with a bow nowadays.
T-6 and counting


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Bob, I hear ya! I need to start looking into some leagues around here. I just saw an ad for a Browning Citori lightning or featherweight (can't remeber which) for $999. Thats the best price I have seen locally. Its got me thinking a bit.....


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Thunder, but if buckshot were outlawed for hunting deer then we couldn't. We'd run the streets and turn to drugs  

It's always amazing how I find myself changing or modifying my opinion based on our conversations, THANK YOU GUYS & GALS.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

Yeah then all us snipers would have to do something else 
LMAO 
Good one


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Robert, Me too. 
I have much more success bowhunting than gunhunting. I've managed to double on the same day the last 3 years in a row on bucks with a bow and out of the last seven, with the exception of one year, had all my buck tags filled by gun season.( knock on wood ) 
I use gun season as a time to fill doe permits. Not near as many people in the woods during bowseason and is the only time that a guy can truly hunt and not have to worry about stumbling on someone or getting shot. 
In fact, I've only killed one buck the last 5 years with a gun.
3 of those years I never even saw a buck.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Robert & Thunder, me too. Take my gun out about three or four times but then it's back to the bow, it's up close and personal. I'm dissapointed when I don't have at least one buck by Nov. 15.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

Double on buck's. Thats great I've gotton two in a weekend but that was the best I ever did.
Gun season to me is a time to relax and hang out with my old man.
I am hunted out by then. Bow season is where it's at for me too.
Come gun season I'm only hunting on my land and I'm just there to make sure my old man get's a buck.
Good luck.
I haven't seen much signs of buck movement in my area may be a tuff opener for me. 
Thunderhead,
This is unrelated but how high do you normally put your tree stand's??


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

Tip's for Bow hunting.
Hey I'll be the first to start talking when it comes to shooting but I still have alot to learn about Deer hunting with a bow.
I've killed 19 deer with a bow and ten with a gun and I still learn something new every year.
I would love to get some tip's from some of you guy's who have been really successfull bow hunters.


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## dongiese (Jun 10, 2002)

You guys have taken this post to the limit.

i say WHATEVER..


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Robert, It depends. I'm scared to death of heights and have to be comfortable to be able to hunt effectivly. At 6'3" and 325 lbs.
I don't feel comfortable getting too high. I set my stands at about
15-17 feet. Tho I do have one that's almost 22', but that's only because I had no other choice and it's a killer spot. I have all my stands custom built with extra big platforms to accomadate my large frame. Also, all are chain on stands. I've found that radical scecnt control and being perfectly still will make up for lack of height.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

I would like to get more tip's and maybe share a little about what I have done wrong in the past.
 
Thats about how high I go too and I'm with you on scent control also I got a good story about that one I'll post on that new thread.


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## DaveW731 (Jan 12, 2001)

After reading these posts, I think I have come to the right place for some wise input. I am new to deer hunting south of the gun line, so have never had to use anything other than my good old .30-.30. My only shotgun is a classic, dual trigger side by side that I inherited from my father. Improved cylinder/ modified choke barrels: GREAT grouse gun, with sentimental value to boot! I was thinking of trying to use this gun this deer season, so I can hunt closer to home, by putting a slug in the cylinder barrell and shot in the modified. I know that any choke screws up slug ballistics, so my only option for a second shot would be buckshot
I plan to do some intense practicing with both barrells, esp. since there are no gun sights on the thing, to see if I can get a reliable grouping with the slugs and a reliable pattern with the shot. I assume that I will limit myself to about a 30 yard shot at the outside.
Am I kidding myself?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Dave, I won't make the choice for you. I think it is something you should decide for yourself. I do suggest that you get plenty of shells, paper and see what you can expect. the performance of guns are as individual as people. 
Good luck to you and yours


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## Danatodd99 (Dec 26, 2001)

Personally ..... I hate buckshot.

I have never used it even in the thickest cover. It scares me to death to think that I am sending out 9-13 or more pellets at a moving target and don't know what they are going to hit.
even if you did hit the deer with three pellets where did the rest go to ? 
I was hunting with a friend and we were waiting on an old logging road, his cousin shot at three deer and the pellets were showering us. John was actually hit in the head, the pelletfell down into his knit hat fold. He keeps it as a reminder everytime he hunts. 
I am Bow first, rifle second and slug gun thridly...... JM2C


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Danatodd99, If you pattern your gun properly, you WILL know where all your pellets are going! That goes for any load from a shotgun be it squirrel loads, duck loads, and even 00 buck. If you've never patterned your shotgun for these game animals, then you have know idea where those pellets are going. Those of us arguing the effectiveness of buckshot have all stated you must pattern your gun before hand. Also who said buckshot is for moving anumals only? 3 out of the 4 I have shot with it were standing still....that is until I knocked them off their feet LOL!! Them blood trails, mighty easy to follow eh?

Thunderhead, I'm with you on the heights! I hate em' but I manage. Comfort and security are top priorities! I'm curious about your stands. Who builds them for you, a manufacturer or self built? I'm 6', 280 so as far as I'm concerned, they can't build a stand with to high of a weight rating..LOL!


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Robert, I'd be happy to share with you what I've learned.
Alot of guys tell me that I go way too far with my techniques for bow hunting, to the point of actually making fun of me. That is till they see my den and the racks which adorn the walls in there. 
I say their wrong. I've been chasing these critters all my life and professionally for the last few years. I'm not out to impress anyone, but hunt for myself, because I have to. I need to.
It's a passion bordering on an obsession. By the way, I hunt private ground, not game ranches. 

Once season starts, I hunt everyday. My old job had allowed me the time in part of Sept. and all of Oct., Nov. and Dec. to do this and I've been at it for the last 26 years or so. I've since quit my regular job and concentrate on whitetails year around helping a man with his hunting operation. I DO NOT hunt there. I guide and offer advise only.

Mindset, scent control, camo, reading the woods and prefered food source at the time of year ( which can change daily) among other things all play a big part of being consistantly sucessful.
Mindset and scent control being the most important. 

If you'd like, PM me and I'll try to help you anyway I can.
I've made a thousand mistakes and learned a thousand lessons, and still learn something new every year.


SM, my first job out of high school I worked as a custom fabricator, welding and machine shop work. 
About 7 years ago I designed and built my own stands using a buddies shop and tools. Couldn't find any store bought stands that I trusted, and they all seemed to have too small a platform.
I bet you could hang a small car from one of these babies and she'd hold. BIG platform and a chain system to secure it to the tree. If I don't trust my stand, I spend too much time holding on to something and freakin out, especially on windy days. LOL


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

where is the best place to aim when using buck shot?, let's say 40 yards. I'm curious. I've been practicing with a mouth full of potato chips trying to hit my garbage can here at work. I've found that aiming for the back edge from 8ft. works best. But I still can't find a distance that will keep chips off my pants.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

You are obviously under powered for the load.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I gotcha. I would never advocate using any illegal method regardless of my personal feelings toward that method. To many poachers and violators out there to begin with! I also would not use a crossbow either even if it were legal during archery season. Just my choice. Now, if a disability etc, made a crossbow necessary then I would use it and be darn happy I could still hunt!


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

Maybe they should outlaw M/D 20/20.
It's very inconsistant  
Unless your a broke Joe


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Nobody ever answered if this thread was a record for views and replies. Anyone???


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

I going to create a new drink called a buck shot.... a combination of mad dog and tequila....... slam it and try to hit a paper plate at 10 feet when your stomach rejects the offering


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

Almost uncivilized. Probably very dangerouse and combustable.
Might even be used for more than one purpose and be affective at most of them. 
I'll take two cases, I owe SFK one for cracking me up all the time..


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I hate to bring this up and there is no offense intended but johnnysmallgame seems quite orally fixated. First projecting chips from his mouth and now projectile vomiting.

It was said earlier: whatever


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I had something stuck in my teeth.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

I'd still like to have the pro buckshot guys call the nearest large deer processing plant and ask what they see everyyear as far as numbers of buckshot wounded deer comming thru are. 

As far as I know, nobody has accepted this challange.
Please do so and let us know what they have to say. These folks are more than qualified at giving an opinion as they see many many more deer carcasses than we do. 

How bout it? Just takes a minute.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

One more thing.........this thread isn't about taking away anyones rights, it's about humane kills. If only 20-30% of buckshot deer are killed cleanly, VS the other 70% that are not and die slow deaths due to infection from bad shots, does it still make it right to insist that it remain legal for deer and is "good" for herd managment? Thats the issue here.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Thunder, can't call my local one because he quit. I now process my own and haven't seen any in the past three years, approx. 4-6 deer per year. My parents and I processed for around eight years and we did see some gang-green. It was cause from bird shot, arrows, buckshot and car collisions. Using my best estimate, I would say car collisions and barbed fence (that's what we determined it to be) caused the most tainted meat. We processed several hundred deer per year and I can tell you that is no vacation: up at 5:00 am hunt till 10am, cut deer till 3 pm, hunt till dark, cut deer till midnight, go to bed and repeat.

P.S. The biggest buck we did (a virtual cow) was shot with a .410 by a disabled gentleman. Perfect double lung-er, he said it went about 150 yards and piled up.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

L:ast year was my first year back so we hammerd the deer.
I had the bug bad since I couldn't hunt for four years. 
We got 16 deer between all of us. I was so tired of processing deer.
I'm only gonna Shoot a couple this year. I don't feal like having to process that many again.
Only saw tanted meat once out of the deer I've done.
The wound was to scard up to tell what it was from.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by [email protected] _
> *Coyotes are small, 20-40 lb animals. Why did the DNR ban buckshot for turkeys and in Shiawasse state game area for deer? *


with this same thought in mind, why can't we use slugs, rifles or rim fires for turkeys? My 22 mag would de-gobble a bird easily.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Because you want to hit a turkey in it's small head. 4's, 5's and 6's with a tight pattern are best for that. 22 mag's for turkeys, like buckshot for deer, will result in too many crippled birds. That's why the DNR banned buckshot for turkeys a couple years ago. It was legal until about 5 years ago.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Still, one pellet might hit that coyote and it could go off and die. 

What is the difference. If we are going to talk about weight. I have seen deer that are about the same size as big coyotes, that people have shot, and if the debate is deer in general, than what about those deer?

I know what you are saying, and like I said I dont use it but for a back up.

As for talking to a meat cutter, I have done hundreds, and I have seen more deer with bird shot, arrows, and hit by cars. The number of deer I have harvested with buckshot in it, that wasnt mine, might be 2 out of 41. But I have found broadheads in about 6. Het with car about 4.


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

Do you remember where you were when this thread started???? I was taking the storm windows OFF and getting ready for the second week of trout season.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

Michbuckmaster, are you advocating we make the use of buckshot illegal for coyotes? LOL Sign me up! Just kidding.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Bob, I think a .22 mag to the head for Turkeys would be perfect! With a good rest and a stationary bird it wouldn't be that difficult. I also think there are a number of states that allow rifles for turkey season. I'm too lazy to research it with this dinosour I'm typing on, but I have heard of it. I have to believe a shotgun or a bow would be much more fun. All of the fun involves getting them close to begin with!


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Swamp Monster, it sure does the job on squirrels  It is the most accurate gun I've ever shot.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

FREEPOP, I agree! My little Ruger 77/22Mag is blast! I was thinking about buying a .17, but I will wait untill ammo is reasonable. I refuse to pay $4 more a box for a round that won't do anything my .22 mag won't. OK, it will shoot a little flatter but thats it!


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## Shoes (Apr 12, 2000)

Thunderhead - While I"m sure the majority of hunters, both on this site as well as others, have feelings regarding the humane manner in which an animal is dispatched, it is important to make sure we have all the facts before rushing to judgement. In this case, do we have enough information? Are observations in a processing plant evidence of hunter incompetence or ineffectiveness of buckshot? I'm not sure it is. 

First, throughout this thread the buckshot-peppered deer are attributed to hunters. There is a very important aspect of this thread that has seemingly been totally ignored......farmers. One of the most widespread tactics used by farmers is to purposely wound deer so as to drive them from crops and to hopefully have them travel elsewhere to die. The farmer then doesn't have to deal with the dozens and dozens of carcasses of the deer he/she will shoot. If we don't know how many of those deer are purposely peppered by local farmers, we are missing a big piece of the puzzle. I don't know the numbers, but there are a lot more deer shot in this manner than one might think. Its something that must be factored into the equation. Badly infected/pussed meat would indicate to me an animal probably shot before the season even began. This is not a shot at farmers, they are protecting their livelihood and handling a difficult situation as best they see fit.

Second, it seems to me that at least these buckshot-peppered animals are being harvested. How many animals wounded by slugs/rifles are lost and don't make it to the processing plant, only to rot in the field? Do we know the percentage of hunters wounding deer using slugs/rifles? Is it greater that those using buckshot? How many even use buckshot? I don't think anyone knows, so we are missing more pieces of the puzzle. Same logic for animals wounded by bow hunters. I read your post regarding bow hunters being a different breed. While I agree they hunt under different circumstances, I disagree they are different. I've known slobs with a bow as with a gun.

Third, I disagree with the tendency to categorize hunters into "common" or other categories. This could impart an elitist attidude to others and could be fodder for dividing hunters into feudal camps. This is particularly important since no one really knows the ethics or competence of the so-called "common" hunters. If you look at the hunter population as a whole, how many deer hunters also hunt, grouse, turkey, pheasant, rabbit, squirrel, bear, elk, etc. The point is, especially given the safety record of deer hunters, there is probably more outdoor savy and competence than deer hunters are given credit. If we don't know the answer, we're missing another part of the puzzle, especially since the buckshot crippling is being attributed to us who may use it.

Fourth, there have been many posts throughout this thread testifying to the effectiveness of buckshot. Certainly enough to warrant making sure we have all the facts before rushing to judge it as being just a cripple load.

If we learn the answers and could put together all pieces of the puzzle, we might be suprised as what we find.

johnnysmallgame - please keep us posted as to your whereabouts in the outdoors, so we can take precautions to avoid your area.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

For the money that you're going to pay, get em' all cut


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

SFK - My buddy only has a crossbow. Should we legalize it because of his equipment limitations? 

Your argument is about "no one telling you" what you can hunt with and it's about your ability to kill deer with buck shot. 

Question for anyone here, will your experience in the woods, your experience at deer camp, your relationship with fellow hunters, your feeling while sitting over a fresh kill, your ability to harvest deer, or your anticipation for future seasons be affected by buck shot being eliminated? If anyone thinks their ability to harvest deer will be affected by the elimination of buckshot, I'd especially be interested in that one.

So far, this is a "my rights" argument or an "I can kill with buckshot" argument. That's great, but they have no place in managing the quality of deer herd and ultimately the quality of hunting. As far as rights go, I'm not for big gov't, but I am for a scientific based management of the deer herd. And if buck shot increases unclaimed kills, and it can be eliminated without affecting your ability to go into the woods with a firearm and hunt deer, I can live with it being banned for deer hunting.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

Thunderhead, You take the number of wounded deer with a bow and get a percentage. Take the number of deer wounded with buckshot and take a percentage. 


I will bet that the percentage of wounded deer with a bow is higher. Were not talking all rounds here, this is about buckshot and you are the one that brought it up 

I know LOTS AND LOTS of guys who wound deer with bows, but only a few that use buckshot. Usually the 3 1/2 inch buckshot boys put them down NOW.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

johnnysmallbrain, I stated that I don't use it. I stated that I have used it. I stated that it should be available for everyone and it should be ther choice.


I hate it when I go fishing in a new spot, gotta get out the regulations, county maps etc and study for a couple hours ttrying to figure out creel, size and tackle, limits....just a pain.

....and I don't quite unserstand about it not being a management tool, heck the QDM guys want to get rid of does and this would be the perfect tool, because according to you they wouldn't ever have to use a doe tag. 

I appologize about the name twisting, I couldn't resist


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

FREESODA, I don't recall addressing anything to you but have a great weekend anyway. 

fyi, it's easy to criticize regs in a world governed by them. imagine yourself in a world without them.


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## Shoes (Apr 12, 2000)

Johnnysmallgame - I remember where I was when this thread started. I had a job.....now I'm retired. I don't know if thats good or bad, but it sounds like a long time. Also, I used to walk in seemingly endless circles too. Then I bought a compass. At least the circles got smaller.  

I also agree with Freepop. It is a matter of taking away an effective management tool. When I go to the UP, I hunt different types of cover. I take slugs & buckshot for my 12 guage along with my 30.06. In some of the popple thickets I may hunt, the norm for a shot is 10-20 yards. In my opinion, nothing beats 00 buckshot for shooting through small vines, twigs and leaves. Things that obscure vision. I have passed on some nice bucks because I don't try to shoot through saplings or large branches that would be an obstacle and would likely cause wounding. In my opinion, it is a very effective management tool. Taking it away is an issue.

By the way, levity in these kinds of threads is very important!!! 

Thunderhead - I bring up the farmers because I know a number of them who use only buckshot. They say its much easier to hit several deer while running due to the minimal aiming required. I thought that .22's are not allowed even for crop damage control.

My first gun, a Savage 16 guage single shot. Bought it for $32 in 1965. Took my first buck with it in 1969....with a slug.

I too have learned from this thread. While debate is healthy, so is being tolerant of the opinions of others.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

You did say "A question for anyone here........"

That is true about the regulations, it is just tough keeping up with them.

Good weekend to you, talk to ya Monday


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## Shoes (Apr 12, 2000)

Robert W. McCoy Jr - I think your right. I know if I happen to use 00 buck this year, I'll be grinning from ear to ear as I load it.

The debate on using poison arrows took place about 25 years ago as I recall. I don't think there's any chance for it here. Seems the biggest concern was that we'll have Michigan bow hunters dropping like flies from self-inflicted poison wounds.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Shoes - "I bring up the farmers because I know a number of them who use only buckshot. They say its much easier to hit several deer while running due to the minimal aiming required. I thought that .22's are not allowed even for crop damage control."

Is that legal? Shooting them and just letting them die a slow death? No,22s aren't legal, but get the same results.

If I ever saw ANYONE shooting at animals just to kill them and not caring what happened, or how long it took for them to die, I GAR-UN-TEE fists and feet would be flying, and damn the conquenses. 

Crop damage or no crop damage, that ain't right.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Heading out for the week-end. Glad we can have a discussion that has lasted this long without getting out of hand.

Have a great week-end and be safe.

Tom


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## Danatodd99 (Dec 26, 2001)

*Swamp Monster*


> Aparantly you've never patterned a shotgun or you wouldn't make such a dumb comment.


I have shot plenty of rounds of buckshot patterning my gun and it's also why I won't use it.

I resent the fact that you are calling my comment dumb. Not to mention the fact that it's just plain rude.

*FREEPOP* He never saw us he was over 100yds away, it was purely coincidental, we weren't where we were supposed to be and the deer were moving.


> Could've easily been five or six slugs whizzing by your heads


 Hmmmmm ..... lets see 5 or 6 slugs vs. 90 .38 cal. pellets .... you decide !!

*SFK* I suppose you would never shoot at any deer further than 25 yds. either ..... BULL.
The next deer you kill with buckshot I'd like you to count the holes in the deer from your shots. and gimme a tally.

You guys doubting me next time your deer hunting and smiling when you're loading up your buckshot, remember someone else is too. When you're just out of sight of other hunters and the shooting starts, I think you better be praying it's not the guy that loaded buckshot.

As for bow wounded deer, I have gotten every single deer I have ever hit. I have never lost one. 
As for the total being 80% those sound like PETA figures to me.

Of all the bow hunters I know I can think of maybe 5 that were never recovered, and that is maybe 3% of all bow kills.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Danatodd, I'm sorry if you resent my comment but Just because you don't know where your shot is going doesn't mean I, or others that have found loads that our guns like don't know either. If you don't know, thats your problem, and don't use it. I wouldn't want you to use it if it does not pattern well in your gun. I feel that statement was dumb because you said it matter of factly that nobody knew where their shot (pellets) were going. It was hogwash 3 pages ago and its hogwash now. I'm not calling you dumb, nor do I remotely think that, just thought that comment was. 
If buckshot was really that dangerous to other hunters way off in the distance then you would have been attending your friends funeral!. You said he got hit in the head right? Yet it didn't penetrate even the stocking cap right? (I bet a slug would have). How many hunters have been killed by a stray buckshot pellet or two? Very few I'm sure. I've never had a close call with anybody else shooting in my direction with buckshot but I have had to hit the dirt while slugs eerily whistled passed my head! (thats a lousy feeling let me tell ya!) Anyway, buckshot is only as dangerous as the idiot that is shouldering the gun.
Sorry again if I offended you but thats just how I feel about that comment...not about you.


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

SFK 
SuperAgitatorFragiKaladisco!!!
(ExpeeeALiDOEcious)


> To me bow hunting is to deer hunting what flies only is to trout fishing. Nothing personal to
> anyone but tell me logically why it's not so!


(remember Clay you started the name callin' )..... - I ain't no panty - waist , fly jerkin , twEEzer 
wearin'...fluffy patched , bamboo creel totin'...GGGRRR!!!)
*That , was most illogical , Spock....* Dem thar's fawtin' werdZ , Vern!!! 
I started gun hunting EONS before I picked the bow BACK UP to slay the wily elusive brown-down...
I dig the H&LL out of the up close & personal of a bow WAAAY more than a gun... 
comparing 'C&R Flies only' to bowhunting.... your momma should slappa you mouF...hehehe
Also may the fish gods pee in your lemonade..... hehehe
'just not as "spiritual"'??? what is "spiritual"about throwin' feathers at a retarded hatchery raised 
spotted smelt??? There ain't no hatchery deer from the DNR sir!
That's about as BAD as me sayin' ... Army , Navy , Air Force , Marines.... yeah wutever... they're all 
the same ennywayZ..... *WooHoo!!!* 8-P


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

SFW>>> Are you on drugs or just plain crazy  

Your writing is down right crazy but entertaining!!!!!!!!!


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)




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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

Mich Buckmaster,
Both !! Ya pretty much gotta be to start somethin' with SFK....
RIGHT GUYS????


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## Mr. 16 gauge (Jan 26, 2000)

I've read and reread this thread quite a few times. I would just like to make the following observations/opinions.

-while never having shot at a deer with buckshot, I have fired literally thousands of rounds of buckshot (handloaded and factory) over the past several years. I have tried many different choke, barrel, gauge, shot size and type, powders, ect. The following generalities have appeared: 1.) any buckshot load fired thru a rifled barrel will pattern poorly. 2.) some degree of choke is needed to get buckshot to pattern well....for some it is modified, for others it is full; it depends on the load/choke combination. 3.) Nickle plated shot patterns tighter than copper plated shot which patterns tighter than plain shot. Add buffer and/or a sping type wad column to the mix and the pattern tightens up. 4.) increasing the velocity will generally increase the spread of the pattern. 5.) When fired from a level postion, most pellets from a buckshot load will hit the ground at approximately between 75 & 90 yards.
I have found a load that will put all the pellets in the area of a pie plate at 50 yards....this is the Remington nickle plated buffered premium load. This is how it patterns out of MY gun.....how it patterns out of YOUR gun is your responsability to find out.
When we talk about shotguns/buckshot, we are talking a CLOSE RANGE weapon. If you are shooting slugs from a rifled barrel, you are not shooting a shotgun....you are shooting a very large bore, low velocity rifle. It you shoot a smoothbore with a foster or brenneke type slug, at best your deer killing accuracy will be 100 yards maximum.....on average it is probably about 75 yards, and the slug has usually lost a significant amount of energy once it reaches this distance. I think that the key to killing with buckshot is knowing how it patterns in your particular gun. Problem is, out of every 100 hunters, probably only one (maybe fewer) will pattern there gun with ANY load......buckshot, steel shot, or any shot. There has been a lot of talk about why limit yourself to a short range weapon? Maybe for the challenge? Why do people use muzzleloaders (the real ones....not the inlines), handguns, recurves, long bows, ect.? I am sure there are those that wound deer by shooting too far with these weapons......why isn't there a push by those on this board who wish to ban buckshot to ban these weapons? I can legally use my Walther PPk/s in .380 ACP in the southern zone...this isn't a deer caliber, why should I have a right to use it? I have seen NO thread about banning marginal cartridges, such as the 30M1 carbine round, that are minimal on deer.....why not? Seems to me if we are going to do everything for the "good of the herd", we should be issuing every hunter a scope sighted, bolt action, .270 rifle and 130 grain soft points, and then making them pass some sort of shooting test. Is this what everyone wants.....because if you start banning things based on emotion, this is what you will get. It has happened in the U.K......no bows, no handguns, no muzzleloaders; you are limited to a bolt or single shot rifle with soft point (no hollow points allowed) of a minimum energy level. Even if you could handload a marginal cartridge to that energy level, you cannot use it.
There is a lot of "I think that....." or "My experience has been...." talk on these threads. I think this is a good thing; it gets people talking & sharing. However, I think if one wants to ban something, there should be some scientific evidence to back up thier statements, not just "I think we should ban this because this is what I personally have seen.....". Remember proposal B, which would have banned bear hunting with dogs? Any scientific fact behind the claims of those who wanted to ban it? none. I am currently against a ban on buckshot for hunting (or banning anything else, for that matter) with out some sort of SCIENTIFIC evidence. If you can show me a few scientific studies, with objective (not subjective) data showing measured distances, kill vs wound rates, ect. ect ect. and repeat the data in another (different) setting, I might be convinced to support such a ban, but for right now I am against a ban as it is based soley on pure emotion and conjecture, and nothing more.
Another thing I have noticed is that there is a lot of myth floating around in these posts. I particularly like the one about the wooden bullets; I dont' remember who posted it, but it is pure bunk. I am not saying this to slam anyone; for I am sure that this person read this in some gun magazine somewhere and figured it to be true since some gun guru wrote it. I have experimented with loading wooden dowels in a .30-06; the pressure, heat, ect from firing literally shreds the dowel....all that comes out the muzzle is a bunch of toothpicks. The reason that some rounds had wooden bullets was to launch grenades; why they didn't just crimp the case, I don't know....you will have to ask the Japanese. I have also heard the "they want to wound because it takes more men to take care of a wounded soldier" story a hundred times as well. If this is the case, why did the German army INCREASE the bullet diameter of thier main rifle round from 7mm to 8mm? Wounding may have been the result of the 9mm, but I seriously doubt that it was the intent....a lot of wounded soldiers can continue to fight. Personally, if I was in the military, I would want to come up against dead enemy soldiers, not someone I had P.O.ed with a wound. Once again, I am not trying to pick on anyone; I have heard read these stories in gun magazines as well. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that while they make for interesting reading, they are usually falsehoods and don't help in backing up any argument.
I have also noticed (and this bothers me somewhat) that there are those who wish to ban buckshot for deer, but not for other animals, such as coyote. Why? If buckshot is so terrible that it wounds great numbers of deer, why would you say it is ok to use on a lowly coyote? Yes, the pellets would retain more energy to kill since the coyote is smaller, but the kill zone of a coyote is way smaller than that of a white tail deer, and your chances of crippling a yote are just as great, if not greater, than crippling a deer with buckshot (if you are of that opinion). Or maybe we just don't care about a mangy coyote.....deer are more "important" than coyotes; they taste better, have great racks, ect. If this is the case, doesnt' this smack of elitism? I thought the goal of ALL hunters was to produce as quick and humane a kill as possible? or does this only apply to deer?
My opinion of ballistic charts is that they are a great place to use as a jumping of point, but there is other data that needs to be implied as well. I think someone mentioned the 180 grain load in .30-06. Lots of energy, thats for sure. But what if the bullet doesn't open up on a whitetail? A lot of 180 grain bullets are used on elk, and moose. They are constructed to expand on heavy boned game. It is possible that a 180 grain bullet can be fired into a whitetail and have it NOT expand....acting like a FMJ bullet. The deer can run off and die a slow death elsewhere and not be recovered. The hunter can then come back with the opinon that deer are tough, and next season finds him out there with something along the lines of a .338 Win Mag. Besides energy tables, other factors need to be considered (bullet construction, type, weight, ect) as well when choosing ammunition for it's intended use. Also, most data listed by ammo makers is collected from special "test barrels" that are usually longer than most sporting rifles. Keep this in mind when using their data.
I think that we, as sportsman, need to take a look at our weapon and load of choice, and practice with it until we are sure of ourselves. Lead by example to rookies and youngsters and quit worrying about what "the other guy is doing". There will always be those for whom hunting is not a passion, unlike those of us who come to these boards. They hunt for a hobby, or what ever, but really don't care about the animals they hunt the way that we do. They will continue to take shots at ridiculous ranges, no matter what you force them to use legally. I once talked to a 'bow hunter' who told me he lost three deer the week before. He said he hit them, but they ran off. I asked if he had trouble tracking them; his reply was he didn't even bother to try. The same fool also told me he lost two grouse because he shot them over water and didn't want to get wet retrieving them. This is what we need to legislate against, but unfortunatley you cannot legistlate for morality or against stupidity. 
We need to take what the gunwriters and ammo and archery makers say with a grain of salt; they are in the business of selling magazines and goods, and they will stretch the truth to do it. My current concern is the availability of hevishot.....I feel with the ads and stories that have been written, there are going to be a LOT of longer shots taken that shouldn't be, and a LOT of wounded waterfowl that are going to be lost. Does this mean I want hevishot banned? Not at all..... it's just that I want it used within the SHOOTERS limitations. I don't encourage long shots on any game, with rifle, bow, shotgun, handgun, or muzzleloader.
To those who want a ban and say we can live with out buckshot; yes...we can live without buckshot. We can also live without bows, muzzleloaders, handguns, ect just like Great Britain. Be careful what you ask for......you just might get it; and MORE!
Good luck to all this season.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

16ga, that was me who put that up about the wooden bullets. I have a very large WWII library and have read both accounts from the U.S. troops in the Pacific and from Japanese Imperial Army brass. Why the Germans weren't as concerned was because the Soviets weren't concerned with casualities. The Japanese Imperial Army hoped to slow the U.S. progress and make the casualities so high that the U.S. populace would be willing to sue for peace. Here's a quick link and paste too. One quick question, so crossbows for everyone is OK?



http://www.trailblazersww2.org/wooden_bullets.htm

All's Fair in War?
"Not long after I arrived in Normandy, we began finding tremendous caches of German supplies, especially ammunition. They had stashed stuff everywhere, especially in old farm buildings and sheds all over the place. Most of these places were booby-trapped and it took a while for the engineers to systematically defuse these things, and then we were pretty much free to take the stuff if we wanted it. Well, one thing I found in an old farm building was boxes and boxes of wooden bullets. Now, I think these things were against the Geneva Convention, or the rules of war or something like that, but there they were. Hundreds of boxes of them. The concept was that these wooden bullets would shatter when they entered your body, and while you wouldn't necessarily die unless you got hit in the right place, it would take the medics a lot longer to clean your wounds because of all the splintering and all. They had to clean the wound extra good so you wouldn't get an infection, so they spent more time on each guy hit with these things. And that's what the Germans wanted. They wanted our medical guys to waste time on guys wounded this way so as to drain our medical resources. I still have three or four boxes left. I gave some away over the years as souvenirs." [SM] (Webmaster's Note: In other parts of the ETO, especially near the end of the war as the Germans grew desperate, the use of wooden bullets became more prevalent, especially among SS units. It wasn't unusual for Germans to be captured or found with machine-gun belts and bandoliers full of wooden bullets. American medical personnel even ran across bodies in which bullet holes had been filled with wax to conceal the remains of wooden bullets, as their use constituted a war crime, as did the use of frangible, soft-nosed, or "dum-dum" bullets. Veterans of the Pacific Theater also report the use of wooden bullets by the Japanese.)


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## Mr. 16 gauge (Jan 26, 2000)

Bob;
Interesting link. I am wondering if this was truly the case, or if this is just this individuals opinion, i.e. the German and Jap war effort was so strapped for lead, ect that they had to use wooden bullets. I have seen other rounds with wooden bullets, but these were designed to fragment while launching grenades. I tried loading some wooden dowels in my 06, but even at 50 yards, I never hit the target; we found shredded wood splinters all the way to the target. I wonder if the "purple coating" they were talking about was something to treat the wood so it didn't splinter on firing, or if it was some type of poison.....given the Nazis penchant for propaganda, I'm not sure who to beleive.
As far as crossbows go, I really don't care. IMO, if you are going to allow inlines for the muzzleloading season, then I see no reason not to allow crossbows for the archery season. It is a bow, isn't it? It fires an arrow (bolt), doesn't it? I have spent a great deal of time tuning my Hawkin so that it shoots round balls accurately. Some people come along, shove anything down the barrel, and decide that it isn't accurate enough....they need a "muzzleloader" (I prefer to think of them as caseless rifles) that can shoot plastic sabots 300 yards because they don't want to take the time to work with a primative muzzleloader or limit their range. When I statemy position, I'm basically told "tough luck....techical advancements; get with the times". I see no reason why someone who doesn't want to put the time in to tune a bow and match the spine of his arrows shouldn't be allowed to plop his money down, pick up his crossbow, and go "bowhunting".....tough luck....technical advancements; get with the times!(I'm saying this somewhat toungein cheek, but I hope you see my point). I have nothing against inlines per se, I just feel that the December season was meant to be a primative season, and the inline revolution came along and bastardized muzzleloading to the point of no return. But that is another thread, isn't it.......


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

> that is another thread, isn't it......


It certainly is Ollie.... 
Crossbows?? Sure maybe SFK wouldn't compare us to " SPIRITUAL - flies only- C&R " then!

 
RobertO


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

When I decide to hunt my swamp area, I use buckshot, At the ranges that I use it at I have NEVER missed with it. Every deer shot at has pretty much dropped in it's tracks, Same with all the members in our camp. Most who use buckshot when hunting this area. And as a footnote. In my 40 plus years of hunting deer with my Father, Brothers and now Nephews and Sons, during bow, gun, and muzzleloader seasons, all in the shotgun zone. And butchering pretty much all of it ourselves as a group. I can't say I have ever came across a buckshot wounded deer. I have found broadheads in the hams and one just under the hide of the brisket, I have seen barbed wire wrapped around a hind leg that was starting to grow over. Even had one that was missing it's front hoof from the hock down that was healed over. But no healed over or infected buckshot wounds.


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## Danatodd99 (Dec 26, 2001)

I have seen three deer with buck shot wounds that were healed over. One had three pellets in her, must have been a long shot, they were just below the skin.

I have found broadheads and I even found a slug too.
I have skun and butcherd some 200 - 250 deer.

Nothing can produce these results quicker than ignorance and stupidity, no matter what load or weapon is used.


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## kzkydh (Oct 30, 2002)

If you can hit what and where you are aiming, use slugs. --If not, stay home.


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## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

I think this is the longest topic on this forum yet.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

He's trying to keep it open until he can post his pic's on it


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I would jump on the newbie's post but since he posted a pic of a real nice 11 pt, I'll let him off this time!! 
Welcome to the site!!


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

Oh I am pretty sure I can hit what I am aiming at, And I am pretty sure that everyone here that advocates the use of buckshot can hit what they are aiming at. A little research on whose opinion you are about to flame will go a long way. Other than that welcome to the site.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

KZKYDHEILCIELDICLES:

I think I will just stay home because I dont know how to hunt. I just use buckshot to wound deer. I love to do that so people that use slugs can count all the buckshot that I put into them. I am going to be thinking of you while I am on the couch thinking about your insightful, and wonderful post. Get Real!!!


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

I've missed more deer in the last 26 years than I care to think about, I've even lost one or two and I consider myself a good shot. 
Like my best buds Grandpappy used to say
" There's alot of air around'em". 

I"ve listened to alot of guys on this thread saying that they've never missed a deer or lost one. Thats great, I wish I could say the same. You're either unbelievably lucky, or one hell of a shot, either way guys, I'd knock on something when I say that tho. 
Don't want to jinx yourself 

15 days and a wake-up to go............I'm gettin twitchy already.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

LOL Hey ! For once we agree on this thread ! 
Your absoultly right.

"People who shoot too soon, too far away and can't shoot are the ones who blow the bush....keep your head, wait until you can't stand it and do the job right."

It's called buck fever. I saw a guy once rack every shell out of his gun and never fired a round...... 

One guy unloaded his entire mag into the air.
I guess this is the extreme part of getting the fever, but your right, hurried shots and losing your head have caused more missed , wounded and lost deer than any type of round.


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

The debate goes national........ buckshot discussed on G Gordon Liddy show this afternoon. Guest of Liddy's, when informed that some states do not allow high powered rifles, but rather shotguns with buckshot or slugs, the guest said "hmmmm, seems like you'd lose a lot of animals that way" - referring to Liddy's miscue that some states are buckshot only. He's obviously no expert, but I thought it was funny. They both agreed rifles are more lethal and ethical. I wonder if they would assume the same for rifled slugs vs. buckshot. It would be consistent with their opinion on rifle vs. shotgun. Funny. This subject lives.


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

G. Gordon Liddy, What a buffoon. Man was too stupid to know he was Nixon's fallguy. It is the only reason Halderman and Dean gave him the Watergate job in the first place, A simple second story job in an unguarded office and he gets popped, Yeah He's some knid of expert alright, Pretty much like Pee Wee Herman is an expert on movie theaters.


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

I get a kick out of the fact that guys like Nugent and Liddy get railed on this site. I think we have a bunch of liberals on this site who are the real fall guy bafoons. Nugent and Liddy are two of the most outspoken people on hunter and gun rights. You guys sure know how to pick your enemies.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

Musta got lost........ohhhhhhhhh musta got lost...........


Bob Segar


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## johnnysmallgame (Feb 6, 2002)

Cereal Dish Spiller,
I know you must have had a bad breakfast or something this morning. I will not take your comments personally. I'm just commenting on the fact that too many on this site are too proud of their own knowledge and ability to let anyone else speak for them. The result is, anyone else that may speak for you or your cause is "off-base". Recognize that Liddy is an outspoken proponent for gun rights. Let's acknowledge that first is my point. And yes, I think many on this site are liberal enough to think that the right wing side of politics is their enemy and not their friend. They think that because the left speaks on behalf of the environment that the left is on their side. The left wants to rid hunters as much as poluters. So I'm always suspicious when traditional clad "right wingers" are bashed on this site. Just my opinions. 

the newbie


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## Big Medicine (Oct 31, 2002)

I know I'm new to the site and this thread and having never used buckshot before I personally dont have a problem with it. I have read this whole thread and see valid points on each side but to ban something without proper research probably isnt a good idea. Maybe if the DNR put something in the hunting guide to let people know the advantages and disadvantages of using buckshot and to recommend that people pattern their guns before using it. Just my .02 cents.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Now this thread contains TWO of the craziest notions I've read in a long time......
The first is that Buckshot should be banned.
The second is that SFK is now a Liberal!
Next thing you know, somebodies gonna tell us that Rosie O'donnel is a born again Republican!!

Welcome to the site Big Medicine


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## Big Medicine (Oct 31, 2002)

Thanks Swamp Monster. Another thing I noticed that is crazy is the size of that buck that you shot. Nice job.


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## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

So I guess that the fact that I dont blindly follow what ever or who ever is the moron of the minute just because he happens to advocate gun rights, Never mind what they have done in their lives or their stance on anything else. Makes me a liberal Ok, But it makes me a liberal who can take into account the entire picture, Not just see and hear what I only want to. Charlie Manson advocated the use of Buck Knives and High Standard revolvers, Those two wackos in the D.C. area were strong outspoken proponents of semi auto weapons. Guess that makes them role models too. Or maybe they are the conservatives.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Thanks BM!


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

1 Day to go. If your planning on using buckshot, please know your limitations.

Great thread. Didn't get too heated. Opinions were respected and I learned a few new things as well.

No matter what your using Friday, Be Safe, Shoot Straight and the Best of Luck !!


Thunderhead


411 Responses and almost 7500 hits. This has to be some type of record. Either because of the afore mentioned stats or because it ran so long and never got closed.


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## jdt (Jun 30, 2002)

same to ya thunderhead. and good luck to all.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Amen! Go out there and get after em'!


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## uniborn (Aug 30, 2002)

Now i know i didnt see anyone post anything about outlawing buckshot!! You really need to rethink where your coming from on this issue. Never, I mean Never, give up a right you have ! Daily more and more laws pop up that dont affect us directly but saying " here take the buckshot" is just plain ludicrous. Each and every sportsman ought to thank there lucky stars for the right to own each and every weapon and munition. 
Ill tell u where im coming from! When I was younger i broke the law and got a nasty little thing called a felony on my record. Nothing violent nothing sexual just something that all teens go thru but some of us get caught. Now and forever I can never ever own or shoot a firearm again. Sucks man! I love to hunt . I bow hunt 4-5 times a week . Anyway all Im saying is cherish what you all have and never give up a right to own anything! Thanks for your time.
uniborn


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## Lilred (Nov 9, 2001)

Anybody who shoots buckshot, thru a slug gun...shame on ya.
Anybody who shoots slugs thru a unrifled barrel....shame on ya.


Any gun with choked, or screw in chokes..er whatever..(I personally prefer not to use the screw in chokes) can't effectively sling a slug. No, I dont have ballistics, common sense and my lifelong use of shotguns as well as buckshot/slugs tells me so.
That's kinda like shootin a unrifled..rifle aint it? Aint that what a slug gun should be? They do sell rifled barrels for shotguns ya know....When someone tells me "I got a slug gun", I assume it as a rifled barrel.
So, if, shootin a slug out of an unrifled barrel is, in a sense, at some point, inacurate....then that easily makes up for the "inaccuracy" everyone seems to think buckshot has.
While if ya are shootin buckshot thru a rifled barrel...accuracy has no argument.

I've lived in VA all me life. We depend on buckshot fer deer. They live in the thickest of cutovers. I've shot every deer I've ever killed (besides bow/muzzleloader) with 00 buck or No.1 buck in a 16 ga.
I ran across the Remington Premier loads a few years back. What a difference it made! Awesome load with my Rem 870 Wingmaster, as well as the Model 11 Sportsman. I know..I know..every gun shoots every brand/shell different, but that's just what worked best for me. And, yes, at 50 yards, I have, with some guns, dumped 3/4 or more of the load of buckshot in the kill zone. But, I wouldn't shoot past that, and if I could get a much closer shot, i would surely opt for the closer shot.
Most of my further out shots have been on deer in a flat out "runnin like a scalded dog" mode. These shots can be made with alot...and i mean ALOT of practice. Down home, 99% of our shots are made that way. 

Yep, there's alot of folks who plain dont:
practice
take distance/common sense/ gun ability into consideration
use common sense
take the time to pattern your gun BEFORE you go out
(I caint stress that enuf! How does anyone know what's goin to go where @ 50 yrds? Esp if you happen to be changing brands of ammo!) 
use, again common sense

But that dont mean buckshot should be banned. As with any firearm or weapon, it is SOLEY the responsibility of the person who uses or owns it to see that it is used wisely and to the best of their ability. I've seen just as many crippled animals shot with a rifle from pure negligence, if not more, than from buckshot.


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## TrailFndr (Feb 12, 2002)

Well, I gotta say...for a thread like this to run the corse of time that it has and the various opinions that it contains....made for an interesting read.

My .02 

I use buckshot...EGADS...I MUST be a bad hunter, Unethical, MORON.... I have killed 18 Deer with Buckshot in lower michigan, mostly in the Pinckney area. Cover is Thick as hell where I hunt and a Slug would be nearly USELESS do to the amount of thick cover and small openings.

Now...for the naysayers...How many deer have I shot at and lost?? "0" WHY?? because I KNOW my weapon and my own abilities

I don't take long shots, THAT would be stupid and unethical.

My aim point is the same with my shotgun, as it is with my Bow...Heart/Lung area.

As most know, Down here, once shooting comences on Nov. 15 the deer go away....I am one of those Idiots that will crawl into an area to get tehm moving and that is how I hunt..I refuse to sit and wait after the shooting starts, its pointless, Deer aren't moving, they are hiding...so..I go to them.. and BUCKSHOT WORKS!!!

SO...Go ahead...BAN Buckshot...HELL ban Bows also...I have Gutted 6 of those 18 deer and found braodheads stuck inside.....Now tell me...WHAT should be banned?? THe Buckshot?? Or the Bow??

In MY experience, (which is obviously, and Rightly) Different then anyone elses, the Bow injures more then the Buckshot...that is just MY experience....I KNOW better then to say a ban should be placed on anything withoiut a full SCIENTIFIC study Opinions are for MORONS when it comes to banning anything...ONLY Scintific PROOF should be used in these delicate and dangerous decisions.


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## cireofmi (Feb 13, 2001)

I dont hunt just fish but after reading this thread and thinking about it. I dont know. It sounds like Buckshot should be illegal for Deer Hunting. But with the amount of people that use buckshot it would hurt small businesses that sell firearms and buckshot. I doubt it is even hurting are deer herds and those deer are not going to waste.


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## Danatodd99 (Dec 26, 2001)

Solution ..... Ban Morons.

Actually ... there isn't a solution.

So we'll just live with it.


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## Huntin Horseman (Nov 2, 2002)

I dont think there is anything wrong with buckshot as long as you know how to use it .I use buck shot but if I could I would use a slug but my gun wont work good with slugs and so far this year the buckshot has turned out good for me but my dad,brother and cousin all missed deer because they were using buckshot. the shot they took was to far out for the buckshot to do anything plus they were using 2 3/4 9 pellet and I use 3 in. 15 pellet. I figure the more lead you throw at them the better your chances .I think slugs are gret for stand hunting but buckshot is better for stalk hunting.so I hope everyone kills they're deer this year and has fun


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

Hey Clay -- 
I am REALLY not against use of buckshot , and I would reaallly , reaallly , really defend it from being banned....
However....
 This  is the foremost and best reason I think a single projectile is better.......



> I figure the more lead you throw at them the better your chances


  
I aim , you aim , we all say we aim... do ALL of us???

 SFW


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## Huntin Horseman (Nov 2, 2002)

That is not how I meant to say that.What I meant to say is that 3 in. 15 pellet would have a better chance of killing the animal than 2 3/4 9 pellet.And I do aim and both animals that have given me a shot in the two years I have gun hunted I have blown their heart and lungs to pieces.So if I sounded like a jacka$$ then I didn't mean to.


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## Pinefarm (Sep 19, 2000)

You won't believe this! The DNR doesn't even allow buckshot for the summer crop damage hunt! And they will even allow shooting with a spotlight up until midnight! Even though they want the deer killed, they must not want them to die a slow, painfull death. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/02deer_special_permits_35350_7.pdf


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

now here is a post i wish would just go away! LMAO!

add this post to the never ending thread.


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Whew! Did I ever get flamed for closing this one. It's re-opened again for now.............. my patience with it is running thin.


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## Lucky (Nov 19, 2002)

If you think a 30/30 is too small what is big enough? I have killed over a dozen deer with one and never shot one more than once. A well placed shot is what we all need to strive for! A shot in the heart or lungs with any gun at it's evective range will kill a deer quickly and humanely...isn't that what the goal should be. The morale of the story is know your gun and your limitations....dont judge someone elses they will have to judge themselves if they lose a deer.


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## Thunderhead (Feb 2, 2002)

As long as everyone stays civil, which for the most part we have, I see no reason to close it.


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

This just keeps getting better and better.

Hey why don't we start useing 22 rifles for rabbits instead of #6 shot that way we are only shooting at it with one projectile.
Just kidding Just kidding


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## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

What I meant was whats the differance between shooting at a rabbit with #6 and shooting at deer with buck shot. Verses shooting at a rabbit with a 22 and shooting at a deer with a slug.
I was thinking about it this weakend and was thinking I'd get some opinions on it.


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## mrarcher62 (Nov 19, 2002)

WOW!!! ~~Ban Buckshot~~
I say ban ignorant hunters!! It is not the weapons or the shot we choose that is at fault, but the people who use them wrong that cause the problems. 
I have been hunting for 28 years now, and have used a variety of guns and loads to hunt deer. I have found as long as you stay within the limit of the weapon, and load used, that all are effective and safe. 
I also have had the misfortune of being shot by an ignorant hunter who was using buckshot.
{double ot 3 1/2 nitro mag in a 10 gauge} 
Caught one pellet in the knee and yes it hurt like "@#&*". {Thank GOD for that pine tree in the way}
Was it the buckshots fault??? ~NO~ it was the wrecklessness of an over zealous ignorant hunter with no regard to human saftey. so i say educate those that use it of safe usage. But BAN IT !!!! NO WAY!!!


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

Hot-diggity-ding-dang-schliing-schlaang-bodda-boom-bodda-bing-bang-wing-wang-zing-zang-ZooM!!!!
I cannot beleive you recinded your decision !!!(Steve) We have kept if fairly civil , even if I've been hedged on being called an "anti"... hehehe... RWM-Jr & SFK... yaknow I was thinking of bustin' out the Ruger 10/22 after firearm season & poinkin' off a few fuZZy-tails , seein' as there's about 5 of them right next to my ladder stand..... MAN!! they are noisy first thing in the morn' !!!! Although the thought of the "SprayMaX" choke tube with some #4 sounds intriguing.. Matter of fact , Clay -- the last bunny I whacked here was with the .22...... I sure would like to know who was the "Cheif Flamemeister" when Steve 'temporarily' closed off the thread ?? Any volunteers??? 
You have to be a VERY Patient man Steve -- to put up with all of us???? That's a HUGE pair of shoes to fill , even if some of us won't admit to that!!! This is damn near the Hattfield's & the McCoys goin' on here -- but I'm diggin' it - even though I was "OK" with it being closed , I am glad to see you opened the "shootin' range" fer bidnizz agin!!!!
A huge ThanX to you , Mr. H.....
 Robert 

_Hey Clay... Butter -Parkay!!! Butter -Parkay!!! Butter -Parkay!!!_


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