# Solar power question...



## Buddwiser (Dec 14, 2003)

We own a small cabin on Sand Point, outside of Caseville and are considering converting over to solar power for all of our electrical needs. I have been told one can figure the required amount of panels needed by using previous electrical bills but heres the problem with that....we don't stay up there for long extended times and any bill would not reflect a true need. Is there a way to determine how many panels are needed by determining the daily electrical requirements for the entire house thru each electrical devise. Our water heater and stove are both electric so I know those two alone will be a huge draw on what we do.


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## Sling (Aug 2, 2005)

google online usage calculator....consumers power....michigan


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

It's sounds like you currently have power there, so going solar would not be cost effective. If you plan to go 100% solar, you will need to buy all new appliances made for solar use (super energy efficient). You will also have to covert to gas hot water and range. Also, in Michigan we just don't get enough sun year round for solar to be cost effective compared to some areas that are sun drenched year round. I have solar at my off-the-grid cabin, but I know my limitations. I suggest ready up on solar projects.


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## DoJigger (Dec 30, 2010)

For the investment just would take to long for pay back. Not sure what your paying for kwh, check on your bill, but would guess its around .11 cents or so per kwh...cheap.. and plus I'm sure your usage is not that much from what you stated on time spent there.

I know solar panels are not cheap along with installation, Elec permits, Electrician ect.. and in most cases you will only end up powering a light bulb for nothing and expecting a lot more. :sad: I know some think that you could sell power back to the Utility , but not the case, and no way to store power with out a bank of batteries.. expensive. I know Utilities offer rebates, along with write offs but still does not offset the investment. ( jmo )

Me personally would consider installing if building new, install big enough to power most if not all of my home, have to be my primary residents... GEO thermal the whole nine yards, and staying long term...
Only know some of this with recently retiring from an Elec Utility and seeing people making the investment and being disappointed not seeing much in return..

Would suggest that you contact your Elec provider, they will certainly have information on what would be expected from you and would also give you some valuable info... Good luck ..


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Great advise fellas. As stated, tough to get payback from solar. Will take dozens of years when you favor everything in. And don't fall victim to the company's who market solar collectors and equipment. Theres a lot of misinformation out there that's pushed by unscrupulous people looking to make a buck. Your utility even has people who will push solar with out any training, but if you talk to the engineers and CEMs down here at HQ they could clue you in.

What are you looking to accomplish?


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## Buddwiser (Dec 14, 2003)

MEL said:


> Great advise fellas. As stated, tough to get payback from solar. Will take dozens of years when you favor everything in. And don't fall victim to the company's who market solar collectors and equipment. Theres a lot of misinformation out there that's pushed by unscrupulous people looking to make a buck. Your utility even has people who will push solar with out any training, but if you talk to the engineers and CEMs down here at HQ they could clue you in.
> 
> What are you looking to accomplish?


Basically I want to go off grid as far as the electrical goes. Our electric bill up there is ridiculous, far more that it is down here in Macomb County plus it shuts off intermittently on a constant basis. We can't leave anything in the freezer, even leaving stuff in the fridge is a gamble. At first we thought the problem was in the home but after completely re-doing the entire electrical system (and I do mean the entire system) we know its not. The service is non-existent. I have asked DTE several times to check their line from the street to the house but they tell me nothing is wrong. Last time I asked was this past Dec. when there was snow on the ground. They claim they came out to check not only at the street but where the line enters the house. I went up the next day.....not a single track in the snow anywhere near the pole or my house. When I called, I was told they could only go by what their service people reported. Last fall I asked them to cut the tree limbs that were pushing the line off by about 2 feet. No one ever showed up. I understand the problems with solar but am willing to put up with it since we already have problems with the existing system.



Trophy Specialist said:


> Also, in Michigan we just don't get enough sun year round for solar to be cost effective compared to some areas that are sun drenched year round. I have solar at my off-the-grid cabin, but I know my limitations. I suggest ready up on solar projects.


The next door neighbor at my former home in Washington Township ran his entire home of 1800 square feet on 10 panels. My place in Caseville is a very small place, just 850. As I mentioned, the two biggest draws will be the water heater and the fridge. Gas is not an option.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

I would. Do the following first....

1) contact the MPSC about DTE inability to provide reliable power. With dates and durations of power interruptions and your attempts to contact them for resolution.
After the MPSC gets your complaint its sent to DTE then DTE MUST follow up with the MPSC with their resolution to the problem.
This becomes a very serious matter when it goes to MPSC.

2) if no resolution or problem still exists. Consider a whole house stand by generator. You can get them propane powered if Nat gas not an option.

3) roll your sleeves up and jump into solar. I suggest you do a lot of homework before hand. Talk to everyone and anyone you can.

To get a control on costs alone, use only LED lighting, running more then one fridge? Dont.. refrigeration generally the single largest part of electrical bills. New refrigerator s will use $10.00 and less per month in electricity.
It's not unusual for a older refrigerator to use $40..00 and more per month, $60,,00 per month not unheard of in some units ive tested.

How much insulation do you have in the attic? Mine has 24", cellulose.
How much in walls?
Have you PROPERLY sealed for air intrusion? Rim joists?

All these are areas to consider updating to reduce costs.


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## Buddwiser (Dec 14, 2003)

MEL said:


> ) contact the MPSC about DTE inability to provide reliable power. With dates and durations of power interruptions and your attempts to contact them for resolution.
> After the MPSC gets your complaint its sent to DTE then DTE MUST follow up with the MPSC with their resolution to the problem.
> This becomes a very serious matter when it goes to MPSC.


Thanks for this information Mel.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Buddwiser said:


> Basically I want to go off grid as far as the electrical goes. Our electric bill up there is ridiculous, far more that it is down here in Macomb County plus it shuts off intermittently on a constant basis. We can't leave anything in the freezer, even leaving stuff in the fridge is a gamble. At first we thought the problem was in the home but after completely re-doing the entire electrical system (and I do mean the entire system) we know its not. The service is non-existent. I have asked DTE several times to check their line from the street to the house but they tell me nothing is wrong. Last time I asked was this past Dec. when there was snow on the ground. They claim they came out to check not only at the street but where the line enters the house. I went up the next day.....not a single track in the snow anywhere near the pole or my house. When I called, I was told they could only go by what their service people reported. Last fall I asked them to cut the tree limbs that were pushing the line off by about 2 feet. No one ever showed up. I understand the problems with solar but am willing to put up with it since we already have problems with the existing system.
> 
> 
> 
> The next door neighbor at my former home in Washington Township ran his entire home of 1800 square feet on 10 panels. My place in Caseville is a very small place, just 850. As I mentioned, the two biggest draws will be the water heater and the fridge. Gas is not an option.


Gas is certainly an option anywhere a propane truck has access. So if you don't have gas there, I'm assuming you are heating with electric, which would explain why your electric bills are so high. If that's the case, you will NEVER be able to run electric heat off solar. Solar can be awesome for off the grid applications, but going that route 100% requires a very miserly use of electricity especially in areas like Michigan. Forget about using a standard refrigerator/freezer, electric hot water heater or any other heavy drawing appliances. And even then, you will need a generator for backup when the sun doesn't shine for a period, which is common. Like I said, so some research and you will see that I am right. I've been there and done that before with two off-the-grid solar setups, one of which I still enjoy.


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## hawgeye (Mar 3, 2011)

Why not just put in a back-up generator that kicks on itself when the power goes out? Seems a lot easier than going solar.


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## MEL (Jul 17, 2005)

Trophy Specialist said:


> Gas is certainly an option anywhere a propane truck has access. So if you don't have gas there, I'm assuming you are heating with electric, which would explain why your electric bills are so high. If that's the case, you will NEVER be able to run electric heat off solar. Solar can be awesome for off the grid applications, but going that route 100% requires a very miserly use of electricity especially in areas like Michigan. Forget about using a standard refrigerator/freezer, electric hot water heater or any other heavy drawing appliances. And even then, you will need a generator for backup when the sun doesn't shine for a period, which is common. Like I said, so some research and you will see that I am right. I've been there and done that before with two off-the-grid solar setups, one of which I still enjoy.



Agree. Goor post!!! Especially the electric heat part. I've got only electric at my cabin. It's unfreaking expensive to heat with electric vs a Nat gas furnace. Or even propane.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Most off the grid setups use propane refrigerator/freezers and some of the best ones are made here in Michigan (Diamond). They only use about one pound (one-two quarts) of propane per day. I went with a AC/DC frig/freezer though that is made for solar setups and only pulls 35 watts kicking on about once every two hours for for 10 minutes.


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## Buddwiser (Dec 14, 2003)

Gas means being dependent upon someone else to either bring it (propane) or supply it (natural). Its not what I'm looking for. I'm not doubting you at all and I understand there are problems to overcome. I'm not planning on doing this tomorrow (lol) so I will be doing a lot of research. This thread was just the start of it and I thank all of you for your responses. They're greatly appreciated.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

hawgeye said:


> Why not just put in a back-up generator that kicks on itself when the power goes out? Seems a lot easier than going solar.


That's what I was thinking too, but if he is running electric heat, then that might be a problem with a generator.


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## Buddwiser (Dec 14, 2003)

When I bought the place it had a oil furnace that smelled, was noisy and not very efficient plus it was getting hard to find the oil after the place in Pigeon closed so I ripped it out and went electric. That has proven to be a mistake as I mentioned it is really expensive. As an example....years ago after we shut the place down for the winter I left a small light on in the bathroom inadvertently. For one month with that light on my bill was 40 dollars. We really didn't use the place much in the winter as Caseville sorta turns into a ghost town after Labor Day but since we both are now retired, we will be using it more. I am not only looking at solar to help with the heating cost but will be putting in a wood burner stove before this fall over the objections of my wife. Don't ask. lol


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

One caveat to solar in the winter is that you need to clean the snow off the panels or you will get next to nothing.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

FREEPOP said:


> One caveat to solar in the winter is that you need to clean the snow off the panels or you will get next to nothing.


I primarily only use my cabin with solar power during the fall and yes I have to sweep off the panels every time it snows. During the winter it would be more often. When I see panels installed on roofs or other hard to reach spots, it makes me chuckle at those bad decisions. In Michigan they need to be installed at reachable heights where the sun will hit it for most of the day. The sun angle is also very low during half of the year, so that needs to be factored in too. Mine are installed on a rotating post so I can point the panels at the sun for optimal fall usage. I also have to cut down trees that block the sun too. Another factor with solar is that batteries have to be replaced every five years or so. You'd think that with all the research and technology going into batteries that they would have come up with something better in battery storage now for solar power, but actually the batteries available now are worse now compared to the ones from years ago which lasted longer. At my cabin with a very small electrical demand, I can get by with a couple big, deep cycle marine batteries. In a situation where you need a lot of power though, you will need much more expensive six volt batteries and a lot of them, and those also have a fairly short lifespan.


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## Buddwiser (Dec 14, 2003)

I will be keeping them on the ground. I really don't understand the concept of putting them on the roof as my neighbor did. I asked him being the age he is and the problems with his back how well would he be able to clean them of snow and dirt and what he thought would happen when it came time to re-shingle the roof. He sais he never thought of those things. Oh well.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

If you are on the north side of a lake, on the ground might be okay.

Being able to track the sun for the most efficient use of you panels is something to consider.

I worked for a Satellite Dish company a while back and they were looking into solar. I was quite interested when we first started but that faded the more I learned.


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## Sling (Aug 2, 2005)

Buddwiser said:


> I will be keeping them on the ground. I really don't understand the concept of putting them on the roof as my neighbor did. I asked him being the age he is and the problems with his back how well would he be able to clean them of snow and dirt and what he thought would happen when it came time to re-shingle the roof. He sais he never thought of those things. Oh well.


maybe a heat pump is in your future.....but that wont help you with a $40 dollar bill for a small light bulb !


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