# my thoughts on the big manistee river watch...



## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Good post, JCM...your thoughts are well expressed and dead on the money.

Whit, message recieved and I agree. My apologies for feeling the need to stick up for a friend. I deleted the the rest of my post since you edited the thing that offended me and what prompted it in the first place...


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

I must second Whit's comments. These types of threads should be for the betterment of a resource not the belittlement of a fellow sportsman(woman). Let's keep it above the belt.


----------



## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

FlyDaddy said:


> ...but I guess if i were a CO reading some of these posts....


Many do see the posts and they remember, I remember. It's also obvious some don't have a clue. Thanks, to those that do help make wise use of the resource.


----------



## kingwilly (Dec 18, 2002)

You guys have too much time sitting in front of your computer. GO FISHING AND SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!

KW


----------



## MPsteelheader (May 2, 2000)

i know it sucks...

the closest water to me is 2 hrs. away...

i should get up to the joe this weekend...

and do some serious chrome/salmon hunting all i hear is bad news from there...

cya on the river,

mark


----------



## kingwilly (Dec 18, 2002)

MP,

This thread is now closed.

KW


----------



## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

I have not read all the comments to this post but feel the need to voice my opinion. I did read some parts about people liking to bitch and then when it's time to help out, they don't want to. I tried getting a program where we could take care of trash. I had this going since july and only 9 people said they would help out and only several of them really posted. 9 people out of over 5,000+ people who saw it. How PATHETIC is that. The only people who have any right to bitch are the people who took time out of there life to bust these asses when no one else is. I would have been there but I decided to fish the other side of the state like I had been wanting in several years. If it wasn't for that I probably would have been down there helping out. Cudos to the ones that did. 

However, I am sorta confused. In no way is that a slam towards any CO's but if a CO's knows there is blatent snagging going on at tippy damn, why don't they just stick around more to write tickets to several hundred snaggers so there would be more money out there to hire more CO's. It's like the quote shoeman uses "never leave fish to find fish."

I didn't see the CO's very much this fall and never seen an officer after a call that I made but that won't stop me from using the RAP line. However, I did talk to a few officers that told me they got my call but they were either on another case or attending there families when there off duty. Would you leave your family for some dummys that feel they need to snag salmon? These CO's have a life outside there jobs and can't take care of every little call. These officers can't take up every calll but I am sure they try very hard for every call. Plus, it takes time for them to get there. Several times I have made calls on the boardman river to find out the CO was down on the betise giving out tickets there. That's a 30+ minute drive they have to make to take up a call for me. Many times to snagger is gone by then. That's some BIG shoes to fill if you ask me.


BTW, I love my job. I get out at 6 am and head right to the river. Not once did I see anyone snaging before 10 PM. The one time I saw a guy snag a hen off a redd I let him know it was illegal and embarresed him pretty good in front of all the guys down there fishing legal. 

Theres my one post on salmon snagging for the year. One reason why I have quit visiting any forums as much as I use to. I'd rather be out fishing instead of hearing bitching and no one doing anything.


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

kingwilly said:


> MP,
> 
> This thread is now closed.
> 
> KW


Not yet it ain't!!!


----------



## kingfisher2 (Mar 22, 2001)

I have sat here on and off in my office this week reading the arrest reports from the DNR site I posted. I find it interesting the number of people arrested that have outstanding warrents. I also found it interesting the number of times a DNR officer attended to an injured outdoorsperson.

I hope those that did browse the site now have a better understanding that these ever-so-important law enforcement officers do much more than arrest snaggers. They are also out there protecting your family at home while you're on the river....just look at the number of dead beats that were turned over to the State Police, County Sherrif, or City Patrol...for reasons from lack of child support to felonious assault.....

Again, my hat goes off to those wearing the badge in one of the most unappreciated jobs in the world.....THANK YOU!

Marc


----------



## Sixshooter (Mar 16, 2003)

stelmon said:


> However, I am sorta confused. In no way is that a slam towards any CO's but if a CO's knows there is blatent snagging going on at tippy damn, why don't they just stick around more to write tickets to several hundred snaggers so there would be more money out there to hire more CO's. It's like the quote shoeman uses "never leave fish to find fish."


I may be wrong on this but i'm pretty sure i'm not. I think there is a misconception on how and where the money for tickets goes. I do believe at least here in Michigan, and it is probably some type of federal law thing. That the division cannot profit off of the money payed in tickets.

Let me explain that a little bit. Say you get a ticket for snagging. Well that money does NOT go to the DNR budget it goes to the State Budget. And I suppose it is possible that the DNR would get some trickle effect but VERY unlikely.

Same thing with police officers writing traffic violations. The money for your speeding ticket does not go to pay expenses for the officers. It goes into a state fund and could very well go to the welfare system, or something completely different.

It isn't a clear cut case of write more tickets to hire more officers.


----------



## phlyphisher (Aug 15, 2001)

In talking with the officers before, I believe I remember them saying that ticket revenue (assuming that it's paid) goes to the Manistee County Library fund. The money at least stays within the county and does some good, in my opinion. 

I think the restitution money (so much per pound) goes to the state.


----------



## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

It would be scarey if it did go to the CO's payroll. As nice as it would be to have the funding for more CO's, it would open up room for abuse. 

The states view(State Police also) is it is wrong to look to tickets as a source of revenue. The last thing you would want are officers being motivated to issue enough tickets to fund their department instead of issuing tickets to serve the public.


----------



## maumeeriverfish (Oct 20, 2004)

I'm from Ohio, but fish regulary in Michigan. I would be willing to volunteer on a river watch on some weekends, or weekdays with advance notice. I'm not sure how to procede from here. My email is [email protected] if anyone has info. Thanks


----------



## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

It is a common misconception that the DNR or any state law enforcement agency gets fine money from tickets. All fines and court costs from all tickets/arrests both custodial and non-custodial goes to the county where the person was charged. The Fish & Game Protection Fund does receive $10 per ticket if it is a fish or game violation and if the court (judge) orders restitution, that money goes to the Fish & Game Protection Fund. Normally, per year, I believe between restitution and the conservation fee of $10 is somewhere approximately about $75,000 per year.

For example, if a person was caught attempting to snag (using a snag hook) at the Allegan Dam and was fined by the court (different in every county, judges decision on the amount) a $150, then Allegan County gets $140 and the Fish & Game Protection Fund get $10. If in the same case, the person had two salmon that he snagged, the fine was $150, and $50 restitution for the fish the Fish & Game Protection Fund would get $60.

Another point and it seems deer causes us the most problem. Restitution for a deer taken illegally is suppose to be $1000 per deer. Many judges will not assess that restitution regardless that the law requires it.

Another example if a person in Allegan County was fined for an unregistered boat then the county gets everything because it is not a fish or game violation.

Law Division along with Fish and Wildlife Division budget mostly come from the sale of hunting and fishing licenses. There are other sources such from the feds for taxes on the sale of ammo and gun, grants for marine safety enforcement, hunter safety and hunter safety enforcement.

That's the short, simple verson.


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Are all you guyz payin' attention now!.........  :lol: 

Thanks Ray for clarifying the issue.


----------



## Sixshooter (Mar 16, 2003)

Thanks Boehr for clarity on that issue.

I was pretty close with my assumptions with a few things I did NOT know. Such as the money goes to the counties.


----------



## Eye Wizard (Sep 4, 2004)

Man,I'm glad that whenever I'm fortunate enough to get to fish up there I avoid fishing the Big M! Although I'm a native of NW Michigan,I now reside in Ohio,hopefully not regarded as one of those blatant out of state snaggers! I spent a week up there at the end of Sept. fishing a couple lakes for walleyes.A couple of days we walked down to Tippy Dam from the cabin to witness the spectacle first hand.The first two guys we got into a conversation with were from Ludington(I believe that's in MI),in the 30 minutes or so we chatted with them,they illegally hooked 3 fish and kept them.Probably the worst thing was the one guy(he caught 2)was flyfishing! He snagged both fish in the dorsal.Heaven forbid,a resident snagger,and a purist to boot!
It's a problem that will always go on,the DNR does what they can,but it will never be stopped totally.Where I have the problem,don't throw stone's at non-residents,there's a lot of us out there that fish and hunt legally.I seen just as many fish snagged on Bear Creek,Homestead Dam and the Boardman River as I did on the Big M.The DNR can't be everywhere,maybe if some of the tackle shops in that area wouldn't encourage people to snag that would help also.I actually seen one in the area of the dam selling what they used to call "salmon lures" you know,the 3" silver/blue hunk of lead with a treble hook at both ends.


----------



## DryFly (Jun 4, 2001)

Even though ist is illegal to snag, there are a couple of tackle shops that want the "snagging guy's " dollars. 

I was at a meeting that included some local tackle store woners. It was the meeting that first kicked off the River Watch program. 

It was obvious that one well known store owner (very close to the north side of the Tippy Dam) argued about everything that might discourage snagging. He still sells heavy weights intended for snagging but are within the legal Loop hole.

We as sportsmen need to boycot these stores and do our business with those who support legal fishing. 

A while back I was visiting with Rob at Pappys, he was convincing the snagging weight manufacture to convert his lead operation into boat anchors. Unfortunately there are still some who support the snagging dollar. 

I know Pappys is against it and this is where we should spend our money...


----------



## Ralph Smith (Apr 1, 2003)

Well, I thought I would post before this gets closed. Don't know if anyone had mentioned this, got too tired of reading all the thread. 

I think maybe its time the DNR maybe look at technology upgrading in the war against snaggers.

Why couldn't at the heavy snagging places,( like tippy and the foote dam), install some cameras up on a pole like the bay cams around the state. Take the guys picture, and send him a ticket with his picture in the mail. Put on in the parking lot, and when he loads up with his illegal catch, person watching the camera can call the man waiting to pull him over and fine his a.. Just a thought for a possible deterant to the problem. Maybe put a loud speaker beneath the camera and yell at the snaggers to give them a little intimidation that they are being watched. Maybe too far fetched, who knows  

I would be interested also in taking part of the river watch program if anyone could send me some more info on it. Thanks....Ralph


----------



## gunrod (Jan 16, 2001)

The camera idea isn't bad. You probably would have trouble issuing tickets from the images but it would great backup evidence and a deterrant at times. You could even put a link in the DNR site like they do the fish cams in the ladders. I'd pop in daily just to get a look and see what is going on.


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

DryFly said:


> A while back I was visiting with Rob at Pappys, he was convincing the snagging weight manufacture to convert his lead operation into boat anchors. Unfortunately there are still some who support the snagging dollar.
> 
> I know Pappys is against it and this is where we should spend our money...


Economics! That's a mot effective way to help deter snagging. Dave's idea has merit. Take your business to Pappy's in Wellston guys n' gals.


----------



## Eye Wizard (Sep 4, 2004)

I agree,Pappy's is a top-notch establishment,and it's definitely not the seedy one close to the dam I was referring to earlier.In this joint,the guy who runs it actually said that there's no reason not to snag seeing as how the fish are already pretty much dead after they pass High Bridge anyway.That's probably one good reason he's so well stocked up on "salmon lures".


----------



## JCM (Dec 17, 2002)

This is an opportunity for a legal method of resolving a long time problem in MI. WHen the season is not present there seems to be a large concern regarding the snaggers: "I am gonna beat them up on the river when I see them" mentality. While the thought of removing them is an excellent idea, it has to be done in such a way that does not break a law in the process, and so far the watch has been extremly effective. 

Phlyphisher posted some info on August 2nd in response to a question about the watch this fall with VERY limited response. If I remember correctly there were 4 people in that thread. Last year there were a number of individuals from this site that seemed interested in participating. As phlyphisher mentioned..........we can use any and all bodies available to participate. 
THis is the info sent by CO Steve Converse regarding the watch. If there are specific questions regarding the watch there are some regulars on this site that have participated that can answer general questions. I also put in the DNR Cadillac office # as Steve Converse told me that they can also answer any questions that may come about.

Good Fishing, hope to see some (New faces) you up there.

Jim

Cadillac Operations Service Center 
8015 Mackinaw Trail
Cadillac MI 49601
Phone: (231) 775-9727

A message from Conservation Officer Steve Converse:

Hello to all-
Once again it is getting close to my favorite time of year. We are starting to see fish in decent numbers of fish in the Little Manistee River. Some of the fish thatare being caught in the Lake are starting to change color and moving towards the pier. 

Hopefully all of you have been enjoying the Hot summer and fishing as much aspossible. I'm sure we are gonna have another good run of fish this fall, followed by just as many anglers. Hopefully we can count on all of you to assist us this fall with the River watch program. I feel as if we are starting to make a little progress down at the Dam and have every intention of keeping the pressure up. 

This year we are looking to run the program on the last 2 weekends of September and if need be the first weekend of October.

We will start the dates of:
Sept. 17&18
Sept. 24&25
and if the activity level requires we might also run the program on
Oct. 1& 2

As before we will meet at Tippy Dam on the North side in the upper lot.
We will meet at 8:30 AM on each day.

As always if you know others that have participated before or new people who may be interested please contact them and pass on the information.
Also if possible please respond to my e-mail address and let me know if and when you might be able to show up.

Conservation Officer
Steven Converse


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

JCM,
This is an old thread and won't get looked at too much. Your message is important. Please begin a new thread in the NW Rivers Forum.


----------

