# Disgusted by tv shows



## Jimbo 09 (Jan 28, 2013)

Flipped on the outdoor channel this afternoon and a show called “Whitetail freaks” was on. First up the wife of don kisky, taking a way back gut shot on a nice deer then coming up with excuses for what happened. Of course nothing about tracking and suddenly it’s the next day. Next up don takes a walking shot at a deer and shoots it right through the back strap claiming the deer dropped a foot and a half when it heard he shot. Not what the video showed. Lastly his wife is up again and takes a shot at the same deer he wounded earlier and spines it right above the rear quarter. I know that stuff happens when you hunt long enough, but you would think these people would practice a little and show a little respect for the animals. Worst show I’ve seen with literally no content or back story except for showing a bunch of bad shots. Not sure how they are on tv.


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## Hoegemeyer (Dec 27, 2017)

Finally someone has posted about these tv shows. You would have thought that someone would have done it sooner.


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## retired dundo (Jul 21, 2015)

The only ones I. Watch are Michigan out of doors,Wilderness Ed’s journal,and Jim Shockley.Ever notice he doesn’t ever talk about needing all different camo


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## MSUFW07 (Jan 22, 2009)

There was a thread about this not too long ago. https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/bothered-by-realtree-outdoors.610612/


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Most a joke, selling goods to hunters, or wannabes.


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## kracker (Jan 25, 2013)

Best shows are Randy Newberg's Fresh tracks and his older show on your own adventures. He hunts only public land and does all the work his self. He shows success and failure. Does not make excuses for his failures. I believe most of his shows are on YouTube now. He also does a good podcast full of info for western hunts.


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## mjh4 (Feb 2, 2018)

What would these tv hunters do if they had to hunt in Michigan. Real hunting is nothing like what they show on tv they just show shooting an animal and posing next to it. They don't show field dressing and dragging the animals which they probably have someone do for them. Most of the shows give false expectations to new hunters nothing about hunting is as easy as it looks a on any tv show. Some shows are ok like Michigan outdoors and the wilderness journal where they show real hunting but most hunting shows are nothing but junk.


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


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## markopolo50 (Apr 6, 2008)

Most are 10 minutes of footage and 20 minutes of commercials. I can't hardly watch that many commercials


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

kracker said:


> Best shows are Randy Newberg's Fresh tracks and his older show on your own adventures. He hunts only public land and does all the work his self. He shows success and failure. Does not make excuses for his failures. I believe most of his shows are on YouTube now. He also does a good podcast full of info for western hunts.



Randy is one of my favorites. I also like meat eater. Steve Rinella is every bit of a real deal as randy newberg and he is a Michigan guy from the start. 

The most entertaining show for me is hands down gun it with benny spies. He shows real hunting with its success and failure along with normal deer camp antics. He also shoots a pump gun. My favorite episode nothin was killed. He took a fan's invite to Montana to do some public land elk hunting. He didn't know this guy but he was convinced of a great strategy for opening day success by getting to higher elevations where no hunter would typically venture.....20 minutes into the morning benny was greeted with a woman on a mountain bike getting her daily excersize. Reminded me of all the people on here who claim they go way back in where nobody will hunt.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

I found a few hunting shows on youtube I enjoy, Growing deer and The Hunting Public. I also watch MOOD but dont really consider that a hunting show. Other than that I would rather watch paint dry


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## red wolf (Apr 1, 2014)

Shows have turned into jokes.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

Most hunting shows are pathetic. For having all the latest and greatest gear, they sure are bad shots. The so called "celebrity" hunters make me want to puke. No woodsmanship or outdoor skill, just pay the outfitter or farmer to do it all for them.


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## Trap Star (Jan 15, 2015)

Meat Eater is good..thats about it.


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## bald eagle (Dec 4, 2011)

Most are "Infomercials". They should wear hunting cloths like the Nascar guys with all the sponsor's name all over them from head to toe.:lol:


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## sureshotscott (Jul 7, 2011)

I have an idea for a Michigan-themed hunting show I'm sure would be hugely popular. It's called

Carrots, Apples, or Beets?


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## kracker (Jan 25, 2013)

I just started watching the Born and raised outdoors series on YouTube. Good bunch of guys doing things on their own. Definitely not over produced and not pushing sponsors like seen on the outdoor channels. Last season was set up on a day by day 5 state elk hunts. Nice to watch a show without network and sponsor demands.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

sureshotscott said:


> I have an idea for a Michigan-themed hunting show I'm sure would be hugely popular. It's called
> 
> Carrots, Apples, or Beets...


...oh my!


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## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

Personally if I were offered a chance for new truck,free gear, guided hunting at choice lodges and a tv show. I would let you watch my bad shooting at 57 yds. And I wouldn’t care!!


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

mjh4 said:


> What would these tv hunters do if they had to hunt in Michigan. Real hunting is nothing like what they show on tv they just show shooting an animal and posing next to it. They don't show field dressing and dragging the animals which they probably have someone do for them. Most of the shows give false expectations to new hunters nothing about hunting is as easy as it looks a on any tv show. Some shows are ok like Michigan outdoors and the wilderness journal where they show real hunting but most hunting shows are nothing but junk.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman


 Guessing maybe you have never hunted out of Michigan? Where the Kisky’s hunt it sure can be that easy. It’s exactly as it seams. I used to think just like you before I started hunting highly managed land in Iowa. What you see don kisky and his family do on tv and lee and Tiffany for that matter is definitely possible. They are smack dab in the middle of the best trophy buck hunting in this entire country and managing for quality on top of it. You just have to have lots of $$$ and ⏱.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

johnhunter247 said:


> Guessing maybe you have never hunted out of Michigan? Where the Kisky’s hunt it sure can be that easy. It’s exactly as it seams. I used to think just like you before I started hunting highly managed land in Iowa. What you see don kisky and his family do on tv and lee and Tiffany for that matter is definitely possible. They are smack dab in the middle of the best trophy buck hunting in this entire country and managing for quality on top of it. You just have to have lots of $$$ and ⏱.


Have a buddy who hunts an outfitted hunt every year in Iowa and usually gets a big buck on a four day hunt. What those celebrity hunters do out there is nothing special, it just seems like it to Michigan hunters.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Have a buddy who hunts an outfitted hunt every year in Iowa and usually gets a big buck on a four day hunt. What those celebrity hunters do out there is nothing special, it just seems like it to Michigan hunters.


Iowa is definitely a special place for quality deer to hunt. If your buddy is a non resident and kills a big buck in Iowa every year he might want to keep that to himself.


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## jr28schalm (Mar 16, 2006)

johnhunter247 said:


> Iowa is definitely a special place for quality deer to hunt. If your buddy is a non resident and kills a big buck in Iowa every year he might want to keep that to himself.


Points?


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

jr28schalm said:


> Points?


Actually I think he does Iowa and Kansas, not sure of what years, etc. Shoots some monsters with outfitters.


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## Locked and Nocked (Oct 30, 2010)

johnhunter247 said:


> Guessing maybe you have never hunted out of Michigan? Where the Kisky’s hunt it sure can be that easy. It’s exactly as it seams. I used to think just like you before I started hunting highly managed land in Iowa. What you see don kisky and his family do on tv and lee and Tiffany for that matter is definitely possible. They are smack dab in the middle of the best trophy buck hunting in this entire country and managing for quality on top of it. You just have to have lots of $$$ and ⏱.


I made my pilgrimage to Iowa for the first time this year and you aren't kidding. I went for a week during archery and realized quickly what makes that place so special. I only hunted public ground but still was able to see some amazing deer. I spoke with a local who was hunting the same public I was and showed me trail cam pictures of 5-6 deer that were 160 class or above from the tract we were hunting. He had already shot a 160 class buck that year and was trying to help his cousin get one. It is like being on a different planet out there but is expensive which is what keeps it that way.


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## bwlacy (Jul 10, 2012)

Usually Don and Kandy shoot better than that. I'm kind of surprised. 

I like Levi's show. I don't think he's to far out there, no bs, and that boy can shoot!

Iowa is a special place for sure! I've hunted there 3 times. Heck so are Ohio, Nebraska, and most other Midwest states compared to here.


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## LOman (Jan 12, 2017)

I was addicted to these shows several years ago, but I grew tired of the commercials and the over zealous product endorsements. I cancelled my subscription to the Outdoor channel, and I do not miss it.


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## mbirdsley (Jan 12, 2012)

I posted this in another thread but, this is my idea for a show 


I’ve got a great new show for PBS right after Michigan out of doors. It will be called the Practical Poacher. It will be great we can have guest stars ( faces blurred), how to vids and a special law segment on how the DNR is screwing you. In fact I need to get sponsor ship around for the 1st annual April 1st walleye tournament. Weigh in Location will be announced 5 minutes before the tournament ends.


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## markopolo50 (Apr 6, 2008)

I still get the Outdoor channel but Charter/Spectrum decided I didn't need the Sportsman channel anymore. They took it off a few months ago. Really trying to decide to dump the whole cable TV and go back to an antenna.


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## dmrbigeshott (Apr 18, 2010)

Meat Eater with Steven Rinella, Fresh Tracks with Randy Newberg, Born and Raised Outdoors, The Hunting Public and Michigan Out of Doors has made it back into my normal viewing circle. 

All of these shows I watch on YouTube except Meat Eater with Rinella.

From time to time, I'll watch RMEF's videos on YouTube as well as Ruffed Grouse Society's hunts.


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

dmrbigeshott said:


> Meat Eater with Steven Rinella, Fresh Tracks with Randy Newberg, Born and Raised Outdoors, The Hunting Public and Michigan Out of Doors has made it back into my normal viewing circle.
> 
> All of these shows I watch on YouTube except Meat Eater with Rinella.
> 
> From time to time, I'll watch RMEF's videos on YouTube as well as Ruffed Grouse Society's hunts.


Meat eater is on Netflix now I beleive.


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## dmrbigeshott (Apr 18, 2010)

DirtySteve said:


> Meat eater is on Netflix now I beleive.


Yup, but only 2 season


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## Oger (Aug 28, 2008)

sureshotscott said:


> I have an idea for a Michigan-themed hunting show I'm sure would be hugely popular. It's called
> 
> Carrots, Apples, or Beets?


Carrots,apples,beets and four pointers


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## Jdhunttrapfish (Jan 14, 2016)

I watch a few online shows but nothing on TV, I have heard most of the tv people just go and hunt these places and have never even been there before, Midwest whitetail is a good show, yes winke has a manger farm but he doesn't shoot Giants every year and there are alot of other good guys on Midwest whitetail that are good guys and know how to hunt, growing deer is another because they show everything they do and teach what they preach, they have turned a piece of unproductive ground in the Ozarks into a deer paradise and they made it that way, but my new favorite has to be the hunting public those guys work harder than any guys I've seen on any show, they teach the veiwer alot and they always give you a good laugh, them guys are crazy and they have fun and enjoy everything they do even if they don't shoot a monster buck


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

Agree - Midwest Whitetail and Growing Deer TV are 2 of my favorites. My wife and I even took the opportunity to go to Grant Woods' "Proving Grounds" in Missouri during one of his "Field Days" weekends a few years ago - very educational.


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## LabtechLewis (Nov 20, 2008)

wildthing said:


> Agree - Midwest Whitetail and Growing Deer TV are 2 of my favorites. My wife and I even took the opportunity to go to Grant Woods' "Proving Grounds" in Missouri during one of his "Field Days" weekends a few years ago - very educational.


I saw Dr. Woods speaking at one of the shows last year or the year before. I REALLY liked his presentation. When I think about QDMA, I try to keep him front and center, because it reaffirms my reason for membership despite others' ignorant subversion. Did you like Dr. Woods?


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## Wild Thing (Mar 19, 2010)

LabtechLewis said:


> I saw Dr. Woods speaking at one of the shows last year or the year before. I REALLY liked his presentation. When I think about QDMA, I try to keep him front and center, because it reaffirms my reason for membership despite others' ignorant subversion. Did you like Dr. Woods?


Love Grant Woods. He is definitely one of the top Whitetail Deer experts in the country and has spent a lifetime researching and practicing "all things deer". He willingly shares his knowledge with everyone and anyone willing to listen.


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## gtokid1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Pigman


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## LabtechLewis (Nov 20, 2008)

wildthing said:


> Love Grant Woods. He is definitely one of the top Whitetail Deer experts in the country and has spent a lifetime researching and practicing "all things deer". He willingly shares his knowledge with everyone and anyone willing to listen.


Right on. Thank you.

As far as the topic of the OP goes, I readily consume any and all deer hunting shows while in the exercise room (well, maybe the ratio switches to fishing shows for summer). I can look past all the sponsorships, because even though they can be distracting, I get the business side. The ones that I have on DVR right now include Michigan Gone Wild, Michigan Out of Doors, Major League Bowhunter, Drury's Natural Born, Grace Camo & Lace, Buckventures the Woodsman, and North American Whitetail. They all tell a different type of story, but I find them interesting and entertaining.

Michigan Out of Doors might be my favorite because they are becoming really good storytellers and highlight/detail ALL of Michigan's offerings in such a fine manner. The Michigan Gone Wild theme song gets stuck in my head and I like their show too.


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## hunterrep (Aug 10, 2005)

The only show I watch any more is MOD and Gun It with Benny Spies. Great entertainment along with real life hunting scenarios.


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## DecoySlayer (Mar 12, 2016)

I have not watched a hunting or fishing show in several years, not since I was driving truck and watched them just to try to remember what fun was.


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## mich buckmaster (Nov 20, 2001)

What happened to Simply Outdoors here in Michigan?


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

Lamarsh said:


> I stopped watching hunting television a few years ago. I was turned off by the same old thing, which was basically a few segments of them talking to themselves in the blind or stand, then the kill. Over and over again. For me, and I think most hunters, the hunt is not about the kill, but the pursuit, the chase, the immersion in nature. In fact, at least for me, I find the kill, albeit the purpose of being out there, to be my least favorite part.
> 
> I am really only interested in the programs that lay out what people may be doing to set up solid QDM and food plots, property management, and things like that. Those programs are the exception, not the rule. Every single one of us knows what it's like to sit around in a frickin blind or stand, and we all know what it's like to kill an animal, yet those aspects just dominate these stupid shows.
> 
> ...


 Totally agree. Your post pretty much sums it up for me. It's same reason I lost interest in most magazines like North American Whitetail. After the wow factor of the great buck pics and scores their is no substance to me. Deer and Deer Hunting has some good stuff now and then if you can find it among all the adds. Quality Whitetails is more my style.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

Lamarsh said:


> I stopped watching hunting television a few years ago. I was turned off by the same old thing, which was basically a few segments of them talking to themselves in the blind or stand, then the kill. Over and over again. For me, and I think most hunters, the hunt is not about the kill, but the pursuit, the chase, the immersion in nature. In fact, at least for me, I find the kill, albeit the purpose of being out there, to be my least favorite part.
> 
> I am really only interested in the programs that lay out what people may be doing to set up solid QDM and food plots, property management, and things like that. Those programs are the exception, not the rule. Every single one of us knows what it's like to sit around in a frickin blind or stand, and we all know what it's like to kill an animal, yet those aspects just dominate these stupid shows.
> 
> ...


That's why I like the " Hunting Public" on YouTube. They take you along scouting and showing " why" bucks are doing what they are doing. Wish John Eberhart would hurry up and release his segments he did for D&D hunting.


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## sniper (Sep 2, 2005)

Lamarsh said:


> I stopped watching hunting television a few years ago. I was turned off by the same old thing, which was basically a few segments of them talking to themselves in the blind or stand, then the kill. Over and over again. For me, and I think most hunters, the hunt is not about the kill, but the pursuit, the chase, the immersion in nature. In fact, at least for me, I find the kill, albeit the purpose of being out there, to be my least favorite part.
> 
> I am really only interested in the programs that lay out what people may be doing to set up solid QDM and food plots, property management, and things like that. Those programs are the exception, not the rule. Every single one of us knows what it's like to sit around in a frickin blind or stand, and we all know what it's like to kill an animal, yet those aspects just dominate these stupid shows.
> 
> ...


I like your honesty...Nice post..


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## LG1 (Sep 8, 2008)

Anyone watch jimmy big time when he was on? I like the way he made fun of the hunting personalities


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## Robow (Dec 2, 2001)

mich buckmaster said:


> What happened to Simply Outdoors here in Michigan?


 I heard he's having some "difficulties". I'm surprised I haven't seen a thread on here about it.


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## mbrewer (Aug 16, 2014)

Dish7 said:


> Totally agree. Your post pretty much sums it up for me. It's same reason I lost interest in most magazines like North American Whitetail. After the wow factor of the great buck pics and scores their is no substance to me. Deer and Deer Hunting has some good stuff now and then if you can find it among all the adds. Quality Whitetails is more my style.


I resubscribed to D$DH after many years absence and was shocked at the ad prevalence. Double take city, took me a minute to figure out which was the add and which was the article. I'm one edition in and already regretting the two years left.


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

Stumbled across this channel the other day........the editing/production is top notch, and it's certainly interesting (to me anyway), watching these guys go after giants in suburban areas.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyBxMQwjk60yeQYcqo9KD9A


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## Duck-Hunter (Mar 31, 2005)

Trap Star said:


> Meat Eater is good..thats about it.


Meat Eater is by far my favorite show. Steve Rinella is awesome(Michigan Guy too). All about filling tags and the freezer. Doesn’t pimp any products, in fact I don’t recall him even mentioning First Line in the two seasons I’ve watched. The Meat Eater book was a great read, highly recommended. Steve is also a great advocate for the sport. 

The other show I miss is Gun It with Benny Spies. 

I don’t watch any hunting shows, don’t even know half of the “Hollywood Hunters”. My buddy sent me a picture a few months back all excited. He got a picture with some Kisky lady, didn’t have a clue who she was. After reading the original post..I’ll continue to not follow the Kisky clan. 

Deer hunting shows have always bore me to death. People hunting on high dollar, high fence ranches. They give out “tips” while they are hunting on property they’ve never stepped foot on. They are told by the property surveillance team what time the deer will be by, when it’s going to drink/eat and take a dump. Then after they seal the deal it’s time to tell you if they didn’t have this certain gear they would’ve never pulled that hunt off...


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## eyecatcher1 (Apr 22, 2004)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Stumbled across this channel the other day........the editing/production is top notch, and it's certainly interesting (to me anyway), watching these guys go after giants in suburban areas.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyBxMQwjk60yeQYcqo9KD9A


I have a hard time with that show. I'm torn because hunting deer that have limited range and limited pressure due to the suburban nature of it doesn't seem like hunting to me. Something about having a deer die in someones backyard doesn't seem right either. It seems to me the hardest part of those hunts is getting the permission to go. On the other hand the size of some of the bucks they see are crazy.


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## eyecatcher1 (Apr 22, 2004)

Born and Raised Outdoors is launching there Land of the Free 2.0 on youtube next month. It is 50 days 5 states all public land Elk hunting again. Last years series was great. This year I'd expect better production and more consistent uploads as they hired a production guy to assist. 

They do a fair number of giveaways to viewers too. Bows, knives, boots, calls, backpacks and their own merchandise.

If you are considering a DIY Elk Hunt out west check these guys out.


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

eyecatcher1 said:


> I have a hard time with that show. I'm torn because hunting deer that have limited range and limited pressure due to the suburban nature of it doesn't seem like hunting to me. Something about having a deer die in someones backyard doesn't seem right either. It seems to me the hardest part of those hunts is getting the permission to go. On the other hand the size of some of the bucks they see are crazy.


It's funny you say that! I had the same feeling initially, but the more I watched, the more I started to appreciate that style of hunting, albeit very different than what I'm used to. It definitely presents a different set of challenges, but challenges nonetheless. I got the impression these deer, although in a suburban setting with little to no pressure, still reacted to the hunting pressure being put on them, and were difficult to kill. In some ways I can relate a little bit, because the main property I hunt is about 80 acres and great habitat with typically a couple of mature bucks roaming around. Then when I hunt my home property (11.5 acres) with roadway on two sides, it's 100% different, and I sometimes(almost always) have a hard time adjusting to those circumstances, and adjusting my expectations accordingly.


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## Martian (Apr 28, 2011)

most of them seem to be commercials, then they break for a commercial. I also like Steve Rinella. I refuse to watch anything by Realtrees bunch, I never seen so many 50 yd. bad shots, too low, too high, only to see the shooter turn to the camera and say, " smoked him!!' or ," double lung baby" , If the lungs are somewhere 2 inches above the stomach, or in the hind quarters, maybe


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## lodge lounger (Sep 16, 2005)

Other than MOOD, I pretty much avoid hunting shows. That said, I'll probably start tuning back in for awhile, as I'd rather watch commercials for outdoor gear than for the buffoons calling themselves politicians.


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## bobberbill (Apr 5, 2011)

I like In-Fisherman about the best.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

I don't know I actually think the comic show is all the facebook hunters asking advice on tracking wounded deer. Now that's really pathetic..... I actually find the show your talking about to be a little more real if they actually show a bad shot or two.

I've started watching the hunting public guys on Youtube myself. Those guys hunt Iowa and are the best down to earth everyday hunters out there. I love the show hands down the best.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

johnhunter247 said:


> Iowa is definitely a special place for quality deer to hunt. If your buddy is a non resident and kills a big buck in Iowa every year he might want to keep that to himself.


Can't he can get a land owner tag every year if that land owner gifts it to him and helps him in some way of the hunt?


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## Swampdog467 (Jul 6, 2017)

Groundsize said:


> I don't know I actually think the comic show is all the facebook hunters asking advice on tracking wounded deer. Now that's really pathetic..... I actually find the show your talking about to be a little more real if they actually show a bad shot or two.


The bad shot is okay long as it's acknowledged as being bad and how to properly deal with that situation. What I don't want to see is a bad shot played off and then the recovered deer shown later without talking about any of it. Pretty easy to recover a poorly hit deer inside an enclosure. 
I have seen a couple shows on YouTube where that was not the case. Michigan whitetail pursuit has had an episode or two where deer were lost and acknowledged with what seemed to be an honest effort to recover, as well as some that were recovered with coyote damage. That stuff is real to me because I have had it happen


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

Most hunting shows suck. Who the hell can't kill nice bucks skipping around from one outfitted hunt to the next? I have found that the ones that have the words "blood, flesh, assassins, killers, freaks, etc" are the worst. Put those mofos out in the public woods of michigan with me for a season and we'll see who knows how to hunt and who doesn't.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

Swampdog467 said:


> The bad shot is okay long as it's acknowledged as being bad and how to properly deal with that situation. What I don't want to see is a bad shot played off and then the recovered deer shown later without talking about any of it. Pretty easy to recover a poorly hit deer inside an enclosure.
> I have seen a couple shows on YouTube where that was not the case. Michigan whitetail pursuit has had an episode or two where deer were lost and acknowledged with what seemed to be an honest effort to recover, as well as some that were recovered with coyote damage. That stuff is real to me because I have had it happen


What enclose are you talking about that Don Kisky hunts??? The guys is a farmer and hunts his ground and has some of the top whitetail ground in the nation that he lives on and runs a full time farming operation. The guy is the real deal.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Groundsize said:


> Can't he can get a land owner tag every year if that land owner gifts it to him and helps him in some way of the hunt?


Nope absolutely not. Against the law. The only option for a non resident to hunt deer every year in Iowa is to buy a non resident doe tag and fill the buck tag of another hunter called party hunting. It’s good during gun season only. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

If the "host" of the show has black camo paint all over his face and makes a big deal out of pulling his drink out of a $350 ice chest, it usually sucks too.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

johnhunter247 said:


> Nope absolutely not. Against the law. The only option for a non resident to hunt deer every year in Iowa is to buy a non resident doe tag and fill the buck tag of another hunter called party hunting. It’s good during gun season only.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks For some reason I was thinking differently.


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## Swampdog467 (Jul 6, 2017)

Groundsize said:


> What enclose are you talking about that Don Kisky hunts??? The guys is a farmer and hunts his ground and has some of the top whitetail ground in the nation that he lives on and runs a full time farming operation. The guy is the real deal.


Sorry, I must have missed that we were talking about a specific show or person. Shouldn't be generalizing things I guess. My bad. Don't know if I have even seen guy you are talking about, apologize if I made a bad reference out of place. 
I do remember seeing a show where an obviously very poor shot was made, the deer was recovered, in poor condition. No mention of the shot, recovery time, just whooping it up over this awesome buck and how great they were. I would rather see more honesty. I don't remember the name of the show or who it was now.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

Swampdog467 said:


> Sorry, I must have missed that we were talking about a specific show or person. Shouldn't be generalizing things I guess. My bad. Don't know if I have even seen guy you are talking about, apologize if I made a bad reference out of place.
> I do remember seeing a show where an obviously very poor shot was made, the deer was recovered, in poor condition. No mention of the shot, recovery time, just whooping it up over this awesome buck and how great they were. I would rather see more honesty. I don't remember the name of the show or who it was now.


I agree with you on the honesty for some of these hunters. A lot can be easily changed with the cutting of the tape. Kinda poor. 

The real world can be found on any facebook deer hunting page. I wont say any one in particular but that is east to figure out. The comedy show. I wouldn't be surprised if the harvest rate on recovery is lower than 50%. That includes asking for help with a dog.


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## Swampdog467 (Jul 6, 2017)

Not really a hunting show, but one I've enjoyed catching on YouTube is Discovering 906, probably because I love the UP


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Swampdog467 said:


> Sorry, I must have missed that we were talking about a specific show or person. Shouldn't be generalizing things I guess. My bad. Don't know if I have even seen guy you are talking about, apologize if I made a bad reference out of place.
> I do remember seeing a show where an obviously very poor shot was made, the deer was recovered, in poor condition. No mention of the shot, recovery time, just whooping it up over this awesome buck and how great they were. I would rather see more honesty. I don't remember the name of the show or who it was now.


Aside from Bill Winke, Don Kisky is an incredible human being and a great hunter who knows how to manage land for whitetails. Both are from Iowa not to far apart actually. But both are great guys. Neither hunts high fence. But both do eat, sleep, breath and manage land in Iowa for whitetails. Both class acts.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

What's funny is how Michigan hunters watch Iowa hunters on TV and then say " that is not real hunting" 
Except for the fact that in Iowa it is real and in Michigan it isn't .


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

G20man said:


> What's funny is how Michigan hunters watch Iowa hunters on TV and then say " that is not real hunting"
> Except for the fact that in Iowa it is real and in Michigan it isn't .


Man you have to watch the hunting public guys, They are the best. All local buddies our age you and me who are die hard deer hunters. Here is a link .... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzlnaIrdxwJITyrESOReqxg


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Groundsize said:


> Man you have to watch the hunting public guys, They are the best. All local buddies our age you and me who are die hard deer hunters. Here is a link .... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzlnaIrdxwJITyrESOReqxg


I watch them religiously.
All public too.
Nothing like Michigan.


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## Trap Star (Jan 15, 2015)

I try to stay off PornHub personally.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

G20man said:


> I watch them religiously.
> All public too.
> Nothing like Michigan.


My favorite!!!! These guys definitely know there ****


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

Trap Star said:


> I try to stay off PornHub personally.


Impossible!


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Latest episode of Hunting Public(23) showed the realities of bow hunting and made no attempt to hide the emotions. One of the best hunting shows out there IMO


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## bmoffit (Dec 3, 2007)

bowhunter426 said:


> Latest episode of Hunting Public(23) showed the realities of bow hunting and made no attempt to hide the emotions. One of the best hunting shows out there IMO


I had a buddy turn me on to those a few days ago....and i just watched that episode..... with the exception of the porn stache thats top notch entertainment!!


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

Groundsize said:


> What enclose are you talking about that Don Kisky hunts??? The guys is a farmer and hunts his ground and has some of the top whitetail ground in the nation that he lives on and runs a full time farming operation. The guy is the real deal.


I hate outdoor TV, went five years free til I guided in KS and everyone watched.
Kiskys are the real deal, as is Drury, these folks figured out lapratt stuff long before he knew his stuff,another ones Stan potts. I Know there properties are better than we'd see, folks can say let them hunt public here, but reciprocally, could you set up a property to continually kill those deer.
These are folks make a living hunting their own farms, travel a bit, but the bulk is what they made for themselves


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## on a call (Jan 16, 2010)

Walt Donaldson said:


> Stumbled across this channel the other day........the editing/production is top notch, and it's certainly interesting (to me anyway), watching these guys go after giants in suburban areas.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyBxMQwjk60yeQYcqo9KD9A


Pretty good....I hunted north of there buddy shot a 236 NT years ago there I got a nice 8 scored 148.


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## OnHoPr (Jul 21, 2013)

I haven't watched cable or reg tv in better than ten years, but from what I seen back then its probably a lot worse now. I guess there were a couple that were alright, like Midsouth Shooters programming and In Fisherman. I do check out youtube once in a while for specific seasons like duck, archery deer, squirrel, bluegill, etc. Once in a while I check out Bubba Roundtree Outdoors, they got an older gentleman on there that I can relate to.lol


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

Groundsize said:


> Man you have to watch the hunting public guys, They are the best. All local buddies our age you and me who are die hard deer hunters. Here is a link .... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzlnaIrdxwJITyrESOReqxg


I believe these guys (at least some of them) originated from Bill Winke's Midwest Whitetail show, correct?


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Dish7 said:


> I believe these guys (at least some of them) originated from Bill Winke's Midwest Whitetail show, correct?


Aaron, Greg and Zach


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## Matt3ddsteel (Jan 10, 2002)

Dish7 said:


> I believe these guys (at least some of them) originated from Bill Winke's Midwest Whitetail
> 
> 
> bowhunter426 said:
> ...


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## Trunkslammer (May 22, 2013)

The only show i watch and really like is Meat Eater with Steve Rinella. I also really enjoy his podcast. His views on hunting and life are very similar to mine.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

G20man said:


> What's funny is how Michigan hunters watch Iowa hunters on TV and then say " that is not real hunting"
> Except for the fact that in Iowa it is real and in Michigan it isn't .


State land in Iowa is hands down better than the best private land Michigan has to offer. Killing 140+ on Iowa public land is normal and there pretty abundant in south central and south east Iowa. There have been many 170+ class killed on state land in those areas. Not too much hunting pressure though. We have found good sheds on the state land in Iowa pretty much every year. 


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

DEDGOOSE said:


> I hate outdoor TV, went five years free til I guided in KS and everyone watched.
> Kiskys are the real deal, as is Drury, these folks figured out lapratt stuff long before he knew his stuff,another ones Stan potts. I Know there properties are better than we'd see, folks can say let them hunt public here, but reciprocally, could you set up a property to continually kill those deer.
> These are folks make a living hunting their own farms, travel a bit, but the bulk is what they made for themselves


I hate it when guys say let them come here and hunt. Those guys are smart enough to set up shop where these deer have a chance to grow. As I have said in the past spending your hard earned money here to try and consistently grow world class deer every year is like buying a stock you know is going to fail. Don’t perceive that these guys aren’t good hunters because they chose to put there efforts into areas where they have a higher percentage chance at what there goals are. These guys are outstanding hunters and land managers. It is possible to have world class deer to hunt every single year if you manage land in the right areas. 200 acres in Iowa, Missouri, Kansas are better than owning 2000 anywhere in Michigan if your goals are hunting world class deer every single year. Why do you think the Lakosky’s gave up everything, packed up from Minnesota and moved to south east Iowa? It wasn’t by accident they picked that area. It’s also not a coincidence that the majority of the hunting shows are filmed in the states mentioned above. The best of the best in that industry also live in those areas. The majority from Iowa. Iowa is just a special place for a whitetail hunter. No where else like it in the world when it comes to whitetails. You can definitely have the same type of hunting you see on tv if you hunt southern Iowa. 


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## Rasputin (Jan 13, 2009)

Maybe the best solution is to unplug the cable and go outside.


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## M.Schmitz87 (Mar 12, 2013)

Can't believe nobody has mentioned bow hunt or die yet. I actually really like those guys. Websbow only. 
BHOD and meateater are the only two shows I still watch.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

I'll take Eberhart over any of those TV personalities as a better hunter all day, every day.

Anyone who owns 1000s of acres while managing their own farm is going to kill big bucks (even in Michigan and even if the neighbor shoots sparkies) if they have the slightest knowledge of deer hunting, especially when their jobs is to hunt and manage their land and make TV. Obviously, most of those guys are good hunters, but I think the point being made when people say, "let's see them hunt here" is they aren't as good as they, or some of us viewers think they are (yes I watch a select few shows, but youtube is better). I too would like to see some of the tools that you see come hunt Michigan public land and show their awesome skills, especially Keith Warren,lol. I'm not bashing most of the fair chase TV guys, they chose their industry and made it work by getting great property, managing well and also forming connections with other like minded individuals. 

Here is a simple fact that people just won't get over; Michigan is not Iowa, or any other state. Habitat is different, properties sizes are different, hunter density is different and soil productivity is different. The deer in Iowa/Kansas aren't even the same subspecies we have here. Why can't people just understand that Michigan is never going to be anything like Iowa, because quite simply, it is not Iowa! It can't be and won't ever be. Plus, those other states all suck compared to Michigan when it comes to overall outdoor opportunities. We have world class outdoor opportunities and some want to be "trophy deer hunters" in Michigan just want to cry about it being the fault of everyone else that they can't kill a "trophy buck". They are out their and if you find yourself frustrated about deer hunting maybe try fishing once in a while, or some small game/bird hunting. Hunting is supposed to be enjoyable, but some people seem to struggle in enjoying it at all. 

Deer & Deer Hunting is one show I like, Steve Bartylla (sp?) has been making some good points in past episodes, like, "Quite being so judgemental" and "having realistic expectations".


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

It's the hunting shows that caused this trophy buck mentality here in Michigan in the first place. And you are absolutely correct in comparing Iowa with Michigan.


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## bowhunter426 (Oct 20, 2010)

Trout King said:


> especially Keith Warren,lol.


He hunts land open to the public in Michigan.....the public with deep pocket books...


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Trout King said:


> I'll take Eberhart over any of those TV personalities as a better hunter all day, every day.
> 
> Anyone who owns 1000s of acres while managing their own farm is going to kill big bucks (even in Michigan and even if the neighbor shoots sparkies) if they have the slightest knowledge of deer hunting, especially when their jobs is to hunt and manage their land and make TV. Obviously, most of those guys are good hunters, but I think the point being made when people say, "let's see them hunt here" is they aren't as good as they, or some of us viewers think they are (yes I watch a select few shows, but youtube is better). I too would like to see some of the tools that you see come hunt Michigan public land and show their awesome skills, especially Keith Warren,lol. I'm not bashing most of the fair chase TV guys, they chose their industry and made it work by getting great property, managing well and also forming connections with other like minded individuals.
> 
> ...


I hate to break it to you.... The only difference between Iowa and Michigan as far as deer hunting goes is hunter mentality. Southern Michigan has everything Iowa has to grow world class animals. The only thing Michigan doesn’t have is age structure and that comes down to hunter mentality. Doesn’t matter if you have one hunter or 100 per square mile if you don’t let them grow then they can’t reach maturity. Every once in a while a buck in Michigan slips through the cracks and reaches maturity. Usually when we hear about it the deer is definitely world class. So say what you want. Hunter mentality here stands between Michigan deer hunting being a big buck destination state. Southern Michigan is plentiful in everything deer need to get to the next level from a nutritional stand point. Deer have to get to 5 years old to become trophy class animals. There is only one reason that doesn’t happen in Michigan. The guys that want trophy class hunting have to go where they live or be disappointed. I definitely don’t fault a guy for killing whatever makes him happy. It’s like anything else. If you have goals you have to adapt to make them happy. But please don’t say this state doesn’t have what it takes to grow world class animals because it definitely does. Same goes for other out door activities. If you want good pheasant hunting your not getting it here or Iowa anymore for that matter. For one reason or another trying to get on a good pheasant population here is about impossible. It’s money better spent to head to the Dakota’s. 


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

johnhunter247 said:


> I hate it when guys say let them come here and hunt. Those guys are smart enough to set up shop where these deer have a chance to grow. As I have said in the past spending your hard earned money here to try and consistently grow world class deer every year is like buying a stock you know is going to fail. Don’t perceive that these guys aren’t good hunters because they chose to put there efforts into areas where they have a higher percentage chance at what there goals are. These guys are outstanding hunters and land managers. It is possible to have world class deer to hunt every single year if you manage land in the right areas. 200 acres in Iowa, Missouri, Kansas are better than owning 2000 anywhere in Michigan if your goals are hunting world class deer every single year. Why do you think the Lakosky’s gave up everything, packed up from Minnesota and moved to south east Iowa? It wasn’t by accident they picked that area. It’s also not a coincidence that the majority of the hunting shows are filmed in the states mentioned above. The best of the best in that industry also live in those areas. The majority from Iowa. Iowa is just a special place for a whitetail hunter. No where else like it in the world when it comes to whitetails. You can definitely have the same type of hunting you see on tv if you hunt southern Iowa.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really, they are not all that good of hunters. Primarily they are good *deer farmers*. You could take the average 12 year old, give him a cross bow, and set him on one of Latosky's food plots, or feeders and BAM! 170 inch buck. Not saying that there is anything wrong with deer farming, but comparatively I place it just a step above enclosures as far as "hunting". Success pretty much guaranteed.
I will yield that the main difference is all the work that goes into deer farming. 
<----<<<


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## Bucman (Jun 29, 2016)

I


johnhunter247 said:


> I hate to break it to you.... The only difference between Iowa and Michigan as far as deer hunting goes is hunter mentality. Southern Michigan has everything Iowa has to grow world class animals. The only thing Michigan doesn’t have is age structure and that comes down to hunter mentality. Doesn’t matter if you have one hunter or 100 per square mile if you don’t let them grow then they can’t reach maturity. Every once in a while a buck in Michigan slips through the cracks and reaches maturity. Usually when we hear about it the deer is definitely world class. So say what you want. Hunter mentality here stands between Michigan deer hunting being a big buck destination state. Southern Michigan is plentiful in everything deer need to get to the next level from a nutritional stand point. Deer have to get to 5 years old to become trophy class animals. There is only one reason that doesn’t happen in Michigan. The guys that want trophy class hunting have to go where they live or be disappointed. I definitely don’t fault a guy for killing whatever makes him happy. It’s like anything else. If you have goals you have to adapt to make them happy. But please don’t say this state doesn’t have what it takes to grow world class animals because it definitely does. Same goes for other out door activities. If you want good pheasant hunting your not getting it here or Iowa anymore for that matter. For one reason or another trying to get on a good pheasant population here is about impossible. It’s money better spent to head to the Dakota’s.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I respectfully disagree. I’ve hunted a quite a few other states and hunting pressure does not even come close to Michigan!


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

johnhunter247 said:


> I hate to break it to you.... The only difference between Iowa and Michigan as far as deer hunting goes is hunter mentality. Southern Michigan has everything Iowa has to grow world class animals. The only thing Michigan doesn’t have is age structure and that comes down to hunter mentality. Doesn’t matter if you have one hunter or 100 per square mile if you don’t let them grow then they can’t reach maturity. Every once in a while a buck in Michigan slips through the cracks and reaches maturity. Usually when we hear about it the deer is definitely world class. So say what you want. Hunter mentality here stands between Michigan deer hunting being a big buck destination state. Southern Michigan is plentiful in everything deer need to get to the next level from a nutritional stand point. Deer have to get to 5 years old to become trophy class animals. There is only one reason that doesn’t happen in Michigan. The guys that want trophy class hunting have to go where they live or be disappointed. I definitely don’t fault a guy for killing whatever makes him happy. It’s like anything else. If you have goals you have to adapt to make them happy. But please don’t say this state doesn’t have what it takes to grow world class animals because it definitely does. Same goes for other out door activities. If you want good pheasant hunting your not getting it here or Iowa anymore for that matter. For one reason or another trying to get on a good pheasant population here is about impossible. It’s money better spent to head to the Dakota’s.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Could you please quote where I said Michigan can't grow "world class" whitetail deer? Nope, because I never typed that. Michigan is not Iowa and never will be, hunter mentality is part of it, the hunting pressure is also greater in Michigan making mature deer harder to kill. I think there are a lot more "world class" deer in this state than many believe, they just don't prance out across fields or food plots in daylight hours like they do in Iowa on 2000+ acre farms that see maybe 10 days of hunting pressure a year.

If people want to kill Iowa deer, they should go to Iowa. Michigan deer hunting will never be like Iowa hunting.

Michigan has some good soil to grow deer, but I would guess fertility along the Mississippi is still capable of growing larger deer than Michigan on average. Coincidently, the most fertile and best Michigan land is also the area with some of the highest hunting pressure.


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## NovemberWhitetailz (Oct 10, 2008)

Joe Archer said:


> Really, they are not all that good of hunters. Primarily they are good *deer farmers*. You could take the average 12 year old, give him a cross bow, and set him on one of Latosky's food plots, or feeders and BAM! 170 inch buck. Not saying that there is anything wrong with deer farming, but comparatively I place it just a step above enclosures as far as "hunting". Success pretty much guaranteed.
> I will yield that the main difference is all the work that goes into deer farming.
> <----<<<


I mean..... That's a bit much. Sounds like a lot of jealousy IMO. Probably only you could burn out stands on those big properties! And in Iowa, you should know. You can't hunt over feeders!


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## FISHMANMARK (Jun 11, 2007)

Michigan has 764,000 licensed hunters on 36.3 million acres.

Iowa has 222,000 licensed hunters on 36 million acres.

We have 3.5 times as many hunters on basically the same amount of property.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

Joe Archer said:


> Really, they are not all that good of hunters. Primarily they are good *deer farmers*. You could take the average 12 year old, give him a cross bow, and set him on one of Latosky's food plots, or feeders and BAM! 170 inch buck. Not saying that there is anything wrong with deer farming, but comparatively I place it just a step above enclosures as far as "hunting". Success pretty much guaranteed.
> I will yield that the main difference is all the work that goes into deer farming.
> <----<<<


Come on Joe are you kidding?????. Everyone knows in Michigan if its brown its down. Hell look online. Everyone cant believe when someone passes up a 2-3 year old buck. In Iowa they don't shoot small bucks. They don't have to its just that simple. Your like every other Michigan hunting trying to make excuses.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

In Iowa they also don't call 3.5 year old deer "mature", like they do here. That is also hunter mentality, which I agree is different here than Iowa and many other states. I don't mind Michigan mentality one bit, but I also don't preach about what others should shoot, and never claimed a 3 year old Michigan deer to be mature, because it simply is not.



johnhunter247 said:


> Deer have to get to 5 years old to become trophy class animals.


So I'm guess there are very few here that have ever shot a "trophy class" buck in Michigan, if 5 is the standard for trophy. I see a lot of TV dudes shooting deer that aren't up to your trophy standard too.

Side Note: This trophy talk around here is crazy lately, to some it's a pencil spike, to some it's a 2.5 year old, to CBM, to P&Y to B&C. What is a trophy? Can we all agree a "trophy" deer is a personal thing?

Personally, I am perfectly happy with my hunting. I am not swayed by the big buck TV shows.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Groundsize said:


> Come on Joe are you kidding?????. Everyone knows in Michigan if its brown its down. Hell look online. Everyone cant believe when someone passes up a 2-3 year old buck. In Iowa they don't shoot small bucks. They don't have to its just that simple. Your like every other Michigan hunting trying to make excuses.


I am not making excuses at all. I understand what Michigan is, and in my opinion it provides a lot of hunting potential. I am just making the distinction between "deer hunting" and "deer farming". The Latoskys and many others with tv shows are deer farmers; they grow some nice ones! Sure, I'd venture onto their land if invited and likely kill the best buck of my life, but I honestly don't think it would be the best hunt of my life either.
<----<<<


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## NovemberWhitetailz (Oct 10, 2008)

Joe Archer said:


> I am not making excuses at all. I understand what Michigan is, and in my opinion it provides a lot of hunting potential. I am just making the distinction between "deer hunting" and "deer farming". The Latoskys and many others with tv shows are deer farmers; they grow some nice ones! Sure, I'd venture onto their land if invited and likely kill the best buck of my life, but I honestly don't think it would be the best hunt of my life either.
> <----<<<


You could most likely go to any State land piece in any midwest state and kill your best buck. Definitely wouldn't have to be large tract of private land.


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

HUBBHUNTER2 said:


> You could most likely go to any State land piece in any midwest state and kill your best buck. Definitely wouldn't have to be large tract of private land.


... and this in my opinion would be "hunting". I'd like to see more TV shows of this variety. 
Like I said, "deer farming" is probably pretty rewarding for the "farmers", but really, not my cup of tea.
<----<<<


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## Walt Donaldson (Feb 23, 2015)

Joe doesn't like when people shoot B1G1s. It means they're bad hunters, and hunt deer farms. #hatoradeoverdose #burnoutallstandsbyday4 #boomedbyHH2


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## Jacobf (Nov 16, 2016)

johnhunter247 said:


> I hate to break it to you.... The only difference between Iowa and Michigan as far as deer hunting goes is hunter mentality. Southern Michigan has everything Iowa has to grow world class animals. The only thing Michigan doesn’t have is age structure and that comes down to hunter mentality. Doesn’t matter if you have one hunter or 100 per square mile if you don’t let them grow then they can’t reach maturity. Every once in a while a buck in Michigan slips through the cracks and reaches maturity. Usually when we hear about it the deer is definitely world class. So say what you want. Hunter mentality here stands between Michigan deer hunting being a big buck destination state. Southern Michigan is plentiful in everything deer need to get to the next level from a nutritional stand point. Deer have to get to 5 years old to become trophy class animals. There is only one reason that doesn’t happen in Michigan. The guys that want trophy class hunting have to go where they live or be disappointed. I definitely don’t fault a guy for killing whatever makes him happy. It’s like anything else. If you have goals you have to adapt to make them happy. But please don’t say this state doesn’t have what it takes to grow world class animals because it definitely does. Same goes for other out door activities. If you want good pheasant hunting your not getting it here or Iowa anymore for that matter. For one reason or another trying to get on a good pheasant population here is about impossible. It’s money better spent to head to the Dakota’s.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its numbers. If we had zero hunters then clearly we would have massive bucks. But our environment doesnt support as many deer as Iowa because more of our land is unusable to deer or cant support large quantities or deer. The. You add that we have more hunters and we just have a numbers game. Unless hunters go out and just not kill deer we wont be able to support a big population of big deer with our environment and hunting pressure.


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## NovemberWhitetailz (Oct 10, 2008)

Joe Archer said:


> ... and this in my opinion would be "hunting". I'd like to see more TV shows of this variety.
> Like I said, "deer farming" is probably pretty rewarding for the "farmers", but really, not my cup of tea.
> <----<<<


Just sounds like a lot of jealousy and envy... uhh in my opinion. The Drurys, Kiskis, Lakosky's worked their butts off, made a lot of money either from farming or from TV, or previous engineering jobs. Invested that money back into land and continued to buy up chunks with their own damn money which they earned and now are hunting some of the best ground. Sounds like a lot of guys cups of tea. Unless you like hunting the same small tracts of land, hunting the same stand 14 out of the first 15 days of season, shoot a 2.5 yr old deer and say the DNR aged it at 4.5 yrs old. You don't have to like their TV shows but to throw shade at them because they'll have more than you'll even dream of is BS


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Trout King said:


> In Iowa they also don't call 3.5 year old deer "mature", like they do here. That is also hunter mentality, which I agree is different here than Iowa and many other states. I don't mind Michigan mentality one bit, but I also don't preach about what others should shoot, and never claimed a 3 year old Michigan deer to be mature, because it simply is not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


“Five” years old is what it takes to get a buck to where you can see his potential. At 3 you have no idea a bucks potential. At 4 they start to fill out except for the mass. At 5/6 is when they really show there potential. So yes I would agree that the majority of Michigan hunters have never even seen a truly mature buck let alone killed one unless they have spent time hunting the big buck destination states. I sure as hell never seen one on the hoof before I started hunting northern Missouri and southern Iowa. Once I did I started seeing and harvesting deer of that caliber every single year. I have to respectfully disagree on Michigan having the potential to have an abundance of quality mature bucks like Iowa. If hunter mentality changed it sure could happen. Will it? I doubt it. It doesn’t matter how many hunters there are. Like I stated before if you have 1 or 100 hunters per square mile you have to let them grow to become mature. If 100 guys in a square mile didn’t shoot immature bucks we sure would definitely have them. I also disagree with your thought that there are more mature deer here then we think. I’ve seen the buck poles on the gun opener in the best areas Michigan has to offer as far as nutrition and 99% of the bucks hanging are immature deer. The survival rate of whitetail bucks over 4 years old in Michigan I’m sure is extremely low. It definitely boils down to hunter mentality. Im sure three year olds in Iowa have a better survival rate than all deer in Michigan 3 and younger combined. Your right in the fact that in order to kill Iowa bucks you have to hunt there. That’s a no brainer. But to think the potential isn’t here if hunter mentality was in line with the same hunter mentality in Iowa is naive. In my mind anyway it’s the only thing Michigan is lacking to become a big buck destination. 


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Bucman said:


> I
> 
> I respectfully disagree. I’ve hunted a quite a few other states and hunting pressure does not even come close to Michigan!


I don’t see your point. What’s hunting pressure have to do with letting deer grow to a mature age? It doesn’t matter how many hunters you have. They have to get age on them to become mature. Doesn’t matter how much hunting pressure you have. If you kill them they definitely can’t grow. If you kill a three year old you will never have any idea what that deer could have been. It’s simple science. Deer must get to 5/6 to see there potential. Anything short of that and there not mature deer. I’m not sure why this thread has turned into a debate about big buck states vs Michigan. It was about guys complaining about hunting shows. I agree there are lots of bad shows out there. But not all bad and as like mentioned before some of those guys on tv are very good hunters and land managers. 


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

This brings me back to the eberhardt vs lapratte thread. I respect a guy that can go out hang a stand and kill. Also respect a guy stews over aerial photos of the property, designs and tweeks his place for success
If this thread is primarily about kiskys, Drury and lakosky, these folks break down deer to their simplest ways and exploit it through habitat.
If these three had the same ground not pouring their knowledge into it for improvement, they would not continually shoot big deer.
Now some shows yes, put me in your best stand, but these ones, they've done the work


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## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

HUBBHUNTER2 said:


> Just sounds like a lot of jealousy and envy... uhh in my opinion. The Drurys, Kiskis, Lakosky's worked their butts off, made a lot of money either from farming or from TV, or previous engineering jobs. Invested that money back into land and continued to buy up chunks with their own damn money which they earned and now are hunting some of the best ground. Sounds like a lot of guys cups of tea. Unless you like hunting the same small tracts of land, hunting the same stand 14 out of the first 15 days of season, shoot a 2.5 yr old deer and say the DNR aged it at 4.5 yrs old. You don't have to like their TV shows but to throw shade at them because they'll have more than you'll even dream of is BS


The title of this thread was "Disgusted by TV Shows". Obviously, you like these shows. I have no problem with that. To each his own. I'm not jealous or envious - deer farming TV shows for profit just aint my cup of tea. 
<----<<<


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Joe Archer said:


> Really, they are not all that good of hunters. Primarily they are good *deer farmers*. You could take the average 12 year old, give him a cross bow, and set him on one of Latosky's food plots, or feeders and BAM! 170 inch buck. Not saying that there is anything wrong with deer farming, but comparatively I place it just a step above enclosures as far as "hunting". Success pretty much guaranteed.
> I will yield that the main difference is all the work that goes into deer farming.
> <----<<<


Cmon Joe, you trying to say Don Kisky isn’t a good hunter? You think it’s that easy? Believe me.... they put there time in on stand and year round doing work revolving around whitetails. Those guys put hours upon hours on stand to get the footage they get. They definitely don’t climb into a tree and kill a mature buck every sit. To say Bill Winke, Don Kisky or the Drury’s for that matter aren’t good hunters is ridiculous. It took every one of those guys a lot of time, hard work, money and effort to have the opportunities they have now. Nothing came to any of them for free or by accident. None of them woke up one morning and were lucky enough to have what they have now. They earned it through hard work and determination. They are good hunters and that’s what drove them to the success they have today. You don’t get where they are with out passion for what there doing. I have to agree that it kind of sounds like jealousy. Those guys are absolutely good hunters. If Bill Winke says something, just like Eberhart, it’s probably wise to listen if your the type that likes to hunt big deer. 


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## Philhb42 (Jan 25, 2010)

Like few others have said, we have more hunters and most consider 2-3 year bucks "mature" Iowa, Illinois, Ohio less hunters and don't shoot bucks until 4-6 year olds. We have much smaller chunks of land too which makes it near impossible to manage for most of us.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

johnhunter247 said:


> I’m not sure why this thread has turned into a debate about big buck states vs Michigan.


Pretty sure that started on post #88, then picked up with post #103 and #104, then went on from there .


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## NovemberWhitetailz (Oct 10, 2008)

Joe Archer said:


> The title of this thread was "Disgusted by TV Shows". Obviously, you like these shows. I have no problem with that. To each his own. I'm not jealous or envious - deer farming TV shows for profit just aint my cup of tea.
> <----<<<


I don't even have the outdoor channel. Hell, I don't even have cable. When I do sit down to watch something it's HULU which doesn't carry these. You just can't accept your're full of BS. Because you can't do what they d, you try to downgrade with Deer farming or what have you. They kill big bucks, you don't. Period. So you piss on them because of it.
And I haven't even mentioned I like their shows. I'm just commenting on how you think you're better than them because you can shoot a small buck in Northern MI and think that equals them shooting a 6yr-7yr old 200" deer in Iowa. GTFO of here with that nonsense.


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## FISHMANMARK (Jun 11, 2007)

johnhunter247 said:


> It doesn’t matter how many hunters you have. They have to get age on them to become mature. Doesn’t matter how much hunting pressure you have.


The deer are 3.5 times more likely to walk by a hunter in MI. You have 3.5 times more people to convince that they need to let one walk. That is absolutely a factor.


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

HUBBHUNTER2 said:


> shoot a 2.5 yr old deer and say the DNR aged it at 4.5 yrs old.


:lol::lol::lol: Thought the same thing.


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## Jacobf (Nov 16, 2016)

FISHMANMARK said:


> The deer are 3.5 times more likely to walk by a hunter in MI. You have 3.5 times more people to convince that they need to let one walk. That is absolutely a factor.


I believe the point is that if everyone had the “dont shot anything that isnt 5+ years” mentality then there would be more. If everyone had that mentality it wouldnt matter the amount of hunters. Not that having 3x the hunters in general isnt a factor. Its flawed in that it ignores that if you had 5 mature bucks on a square mile and 1 hunter, then the one hunter has five chances for a buck and if you have 20 hunters then 15 people wouldnt just have to pass on small bucks but have to pass on getting a deer completely. If all you are concerned about is mature bucks, changing hunter mentality would make michigan have more big bucks. The success rate of hunters would fall off a cliff and not recover though.


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## Trout King (May 1, 2002)

I like The Hunting Public, Whitetail Adrenaline and some Michigan youtube guys (even if they call 2.5 and 3.5s mature  ). 

Big name shows, Drury bros are okay, Midwest, and D&DH. Used to like the Rush too. 

That is about it.


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## pigeonhunter03 (Jul 7, 2016)

yall should watch don mealey on youtube if your sick of these prostaffers on tv. he one of the few guys i watch. has some good food plot videos as well. havent watched a hunting show in years.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

Joe Archer said:


> I am not making excuses at all. I understand what Michigan is, and in my opinion it provides a lot of hunting potential. I am just making the distinction between "deer hunting" and "deer farming". The Latoskys and many others with tv shows are deer farmers; they grow some nice ones! Sure, I'd venture onto their land if invited and likely kill the best buck of my life, but I honestly don't think it would be the best hunt of my life either.
> <----<<<


The problem with Michigan is its full of hunters who believe in the first line of your response! This is how you always are in every thread. He is exactly what you stated " I understand what Michigan is,"

This in the problem. Michigan has excellent potential. My wall says that. In the past 3 years I hung two bucks of the 4 that are 4 year olds.

Why do you think Michigan quality bucks being harvested are getting better? Because the older guys are retiring and a new younger hunting mentality is taking over. APRs are real and the reason for them is because people like you will blast the same 2.5 year old or 1.5 year old 7 point that walks by you to toss in your horn crate. Just look its proven. Michigan hunters harvest a ton more bucks then doe every year.

Pathetic if you ask me. But what ever makes you happy.

Iowa is a promise land. But lets not forget every other state such as Ohio, Wisconsin, Indiana, Illinois, Kansas are all that as well.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Philhb42 said:


> Like few others have said, we have more hunters and most consider 2-3 year bucks "mature" Iowa, Illinois, Ohio less hunters and don't shoot bucks until 4-6 year olds. We have much smaller chunks of land too which makes it near impossible to manage for most of us.


40+% of Ohio & Illinois bucks killed are 1.5 year olds.

Page 7 of this report:

https://www.qdma.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/WR-2017.pdf


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## Jacobf (Nov 16, 2016)

November Sunrise said:


> 40+% of Ohio & Illinois bucks killed are 1.5 year olds.
> 
> Page 7 of this report:
> 
> https://www.qdma.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/WR-2017.pdf


But but but


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

Jacobf said:


> Its numbers. If we had zero hunters then clearly we would have massive bucks. But our environment doesnt support as many deer as Iowa because more of our land is unusable to deer or cant support large quantities or deer. The. You add that we have more hunters and we just have a numbers game. Unless hunters go out and just not kill deer we wont be able to support a big population of big deer with our environment and hunting pressure.


Are you sure??? Michigan has a lot more deer then Iowa actually you do know that correct????
Michigan needs help that's why so many are supportive of APRs and QDMA and now the thumb APR 4 county and NW 12.
The hunters here want better quality It's very easy to see that.


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## Jacobf (Nov 16, 2016)

jiggin is livin said:


> Eh, I don't pay much attention. Everything is pretty much covered here.
> 
> Most of them aren't real hunters at all. They are paid advisers that get to shoot penned deer for justification. It's not a bad business move but I don't related to them as hunters in the least. They wouldn't last a day in the big woods.
> 
> ...


There different approaches to hunting. Getting a nice piece of property and managing it is one way. Finding a spot on public land is another. Going out without any scouting and just sitting and praying is another. Going to a high fence is another. Different strokes. 

I have only enjoyed watching meat eater. Mostly because it seems like less of a hunting show where they just show off there animals and it doesnt seem fake at all. I get thrown off when a guy has yellow veins on his arrow and is talking then they show the shot and the arrow has purple veins. Most shows are all fake with real kill shots.


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## jiggin is livin (Jan 7, 2011)

Jacobf said:


> There different approaches to hunting. Getting a nice piece of property and managing it is one way. Finding a spot on public land is another. Going out without any scouting and just sitting and praying is another. Going to a high fence is another. Different strokes.
> 
> I have only enjoyed watching meat eater. Mostly because it seems like less of a hunting show where they just show off there animals and it doesnt seem fake at all. I get thrown off when a guy has yellow veins on his arrow and is talking then they show the shot and the arrow has purple veins. Most shows are all fake with real kill shots.


Exactly!

Meat Eater is a great show. I've watched every episode. He gets what hunting is about and why.

Sent from my E6810 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## jiggin is livin (Jan 7, 2011)

on a call said:


> I grew mine in pens.
> 
> Growing them in the wild requires management. Shooting certain does and leaving others. Records of what doe has what fawns and ect...lots of work and time.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with guys managing their own land for the outcomes they expect. I think it's awesome and it isn't easy or quick. Personally I would love to do it, but I love the public land hunting too. It's what I grew up doing and where I've honed my skills. They are completely different types of hunting. 

I'd have to learn all over again as far as managing land. 

Sent from my E6810 using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

Moral of the story is no buck no matter his genetics, location, nutrition, etc will ever show his potential if he is killed before the age of 3.5. 
I bet if more bucks made it to 3.5 in Michigan we'd see what we really could produce. 
Even "up north" where everyone claims they just don't get that big.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

johnhunter247 said:


> I call B.S. on that one. Let’s say Bill Jordan rings you up and offers to make you a millionaire to hunt on tv. Your suddenly going to have the top sponsors in the industry and your going to hunt the best of the best places in the U.S. and Canada. Your going to say gee Bill thanks for the offer but I’m not whoring myself out to peddle your garbage for no amount of money! Bill says okay two million to start I just need your manhood!!! You say nope have a good day! Hell no!!! Your full of s#%t!!!
> That post is jealousy at its finest....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe I am already a millionaire? No interest in taking Jordan's money to pawn his products which I don't use. Not sure which camo patterns I have so maybe I do use that. Don't have any interest in hunting Jordan's fully outfitted hunts with year round supplementally fed super bucks when I can do pretty good hunting places the hillbillys dump their couches and target shoot on public land.

You are right about one thing, I would not whore myself out selling crap just to make a $ in any industry. Hunting mature bucks on public land is my passion and escape from the demands of my work and I will not mix the two.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

on a call said:


> I am NOT saying they are not here...they are for sure...but in the numbers that I have seen else where they are not.
> 
> And...I have not even seen one let alone shoot one here.
> 
> I know you are correct about Central South Michigan...it is IMO the best area to connect on a large deer...they are there ! I wonder how many 200 scores have been taken out of there though ??


Saying we don’t have the genetics is ridiculous. Only one reason there not here in abundance like they are in other states. It’s not rocket science. They must grow to there potential in order to see it. They must get to five years old in order for that to happen. There is no simpler way to explain it. The percentage of deer that make it to there potential here in Michigan has to be a staggeringly low percentage. The majority that do push or exceed the 170 mark and a few have even broke 200”. We definitely have the genetics in zone 3 of Michigan. What we don’t have is the hunter mentality because of the way tradition has been embedded and taught to hunters as kids in the past. I could care less about hunting pressure either. It has nothing to do with a deer making it to age five. The hunters trigger finger has everything to do with it. They must grow to 5/6 years old to reach there potential. There isn’t any other way for it to happen. Not every buck has the potential to be a 150+ but the majority do and only one way to find out.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

johnhunter247 said:


> By the way go ahead and post up pics of the trophies. Let’s see what you got. I believe a long time ago a guy went down that road on here talking about his trophy wife. Then when it was time to show and tell he told us she was a Walmart trophy! To this day I think that was the funniest thing I’ve ever read on here! I wish I could find the thread. It was a while ago. When I read your post it just brought back that memory and I got a good laugh out of it again. This topic has zero to do with your manhood or your wife for that matter. I would leave her out of it. But with that said congrats on all your trophies!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have not put any buck pics on here and sure as hell won't be putting any wife pics! Use your imagination haha


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

on a call said:


> 1) Number one...genes, this is the starting point. I do not think there are many good genes running around.


This is your point that I disagree with. Everyone knows that very good bucks are killed in MI. Genetics are not the limiting factor. As far as northern MI, more likely a question of habitat, nutrition etc...and the MI hunter attitude. 


on a call said:


> I wonder how many 200 scores have been taken out of there though ??


200 scores? Come on now, lol. How many 200s are taken anywhere? Booners while more common in others states are not the norm anywhere so 200 inchers... really?


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Have not put any buck pics on here and sure as hell won't be putting any wife pics! Use your imagination haha


I found a pic of the misses...


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

Jacobf said:


> There was an interesting article read about genetics a few years ago that was about small racks generically beating out bug racks. The basis for the idea is thay big bucks hide and breed less than small racks that roam more because they are pressued less. Which i had a hard time believing but i have a roaming spike i see constantly getting after it that doesnt pay me no attention and the bigger ones are spooky as all get out. That dude probably getting a lot of tail. There is also two other bucks ive seen wih his same unique antler growth....wile writing this i think i just decided to take him out.


Yeah, my theory (with absolutely no scientific proof) is that mature bucks are like mature men when it comes to breeding. When they are young they have a lot of energy and desire. As they age they have less of both and spend more time seeking peace and quiet and good food haha. I have noticed some very aggressive little bucks fighting and chasing does and my buddy has begun calling them "rogue spikes" and I am sure they did a lot of the breeding in the area.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> I could never be a "pro" hunter and shamelessly whore myself peddling stupid hunting accessories and gimmicks. Thanks, but pretty secure in both my manhood and hunting abilities. Have the trophy wife and mounts to prove both. Sounds like maybe you should ask Miller out to dinner eh?


On the point of not being a "pro" hunter you and I would be on the same page. I like anonymity and going hunting as an escape. To turn hunting into a job would be miserable for me and the product hawking would be painful as well.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

johnhunter247 said:


> I found a pic of the misses...


Ha Ha Ha Notice she isn't wearing a Realtree shirt or Mathews cap!


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## Jacobf (Nov 16, 2016)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Yeah, my theory (with absolutely no scientific proof) is that mature bucks are like mature men when it comes to breeding. When they are young they have a lot of energy and desire. As they age they have less of both and spend more time seeking peace and quiet and good food haha. I have noticed some very aggressive little bucks fighting and chasing does and my buddy has begun calling them "rogue spikes" and I am sure they did a lot of the breeding in the area.


The article basically was this lol it also had that mature bucks will take a doe or maybe two and breed those a bunch instead of breeding once with a lot of does.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

November Sunrise said:


> On the point of not being a "pro" hunter you and I would be on the same page. I like anonymity and going hunting as an escape. To turn hunting into a job would be miserable for me and the product hawking would be painful as well.


Yeah, don't know about you but a face like mine would not be good for business.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

jiggin is livin said:


> Eh, I don't pay much attention. Everything is pretty much covered here.
> 
> Most of them aren't real hunters at all. They are paid advisers that get to shoot penned deer for justification. It's not a bad business move but I don't related to them as hunters in the least. They wouldn't last a day in the big woods.
> 
> ...


Survey 1,000 hunters with 20 years experience. I bet 90% of them would consider themselves to be above average hunters.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Dish7 said:


> This is your point that I disagree with. Everyone knows that very good bucks are killed in MI. Genetics are not the limiting factor. As far as northern MI, more likely a question of habitat, nutrition etc...and the MI hunter attitude.
> 200 scores? Come on now, lol. How many 200s are taken anywhere? Booners while more common in others states are not the norm anywhere so 200 inchers... really?


Actually most of the counties in southern Iowa have several 200”+ deer harvested every year. Most keep it to them selves though. I have held several of them in my hands and what an amazing site. They are incredible. Lee lakosky killed two bucks over 200” last season. Four bucks over 200” were killed with in mile of my farm in the last five years in zone 6. Decatur county Iowa has several killed every single year. So yes it is normal in Iowa to have that caliber of deer getting killed consistently season to season. Not by the same hunter but county wide. That’s pretty incredible if you ask me. That’s why the record books are misguided. Iowa hunters don’t kill booners and run to the record books. The majority keep to themselves. No where else in the world kills the abundance of booner bucks as southern Iowa does.


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

November Sunrise said:


> LOL - a lot of class warfare and envy in this thread.
> 
> Is it threatening to your manhood to consider the possibility that some of the guys on TV are a heck of a lot better hunter than you are?
> 
> Miller was a concrete worker who was a successful hunter in northern Wisconsin. For years he wrote magazine articles on the side, which eventually led to a book, which led to being invited to hunt on camera, which ultimately led to a career in the hunting industry.


Exactly. I don't like the majority of these shows but to say that they are not good hunters just because they now make a living from it is silly. The hunting back story before tv on many of these guys (not all) is impressive. Guys like Greg Miller and Pat Reeve are the real deal no matter what their shows are like. JMO.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

November Sunrise said:


> To turn hunting into a job would be miserable for me


Try guiding, I love it but I have zero desire to kill anymore. But when you have a client shoot the best buck of his life or an Osceola rounding out their slam and bro hugs ensue makes it all worth it, knowing you had a part in it.
Coulda rounded out my slam this spring no desire.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

DEDGOOSE said:


> Try guiding, I love it but I have zero desire to kill anymore. But when you have a client shoot the best buck of his life or an Osceola rounding out their slam and bro hugs ensue makes it all worth it, knowing you had a part in it.
> Coulda rounded out my slam this spring no desire.


John Sloan was a guide for many years and is a good writer.

He wrote about spending 200 days away from home/year during his guiding years. There's the pre-season prep, the season of hunting, the months of sports shows, etc. The job requires missing kids birthdays, family Thanksgiving, weddings, etc. 

His perspective was the lifestyle of a guide, as well as the lifestyle of celeb hunters, might be workable for a single guy but is an almost surefire recipe for divorce if someone is married.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Dish7 said:


> Exactly. I don't like the majority of these shows but to say that they are not good hunters just because they now make a living from it is silly. The hunting back story before tv on many of these guys (not all) is impressive. Guys like Greg Miller and Pat Reeve are the real deal no matter what their shows are like. JMO.


This thread has been filled with the theme of what psychologists call "illusory superiority." Illusory superiority is where a person overestimates their own abilities and skills in relation to others. 

Everyone thinks they are above average:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/everyone-thinks-they-are-above-average/


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

November Sunrise said:


> Survey 1,000 hunters with 20 years experience. I bet 90% of them would consider themselves to be above average hunters.


What makes an above average hunter? The only thing that stands between a guy hunting state land and a guy hunting the best private land is money. I honestly don’t think any one guy is a better hunter than the next. Sure you need some skill but you definitely need lots of luck. But I truly believe money is the biggest factor. It takes a lot of money to put yourself in the position to consistently hunt mature deer. There are definitely exceptions. I think Eberhart is truly a great hunter. But for the majority the only thing that separates the guys consistently killing mature bucks and those that don’t is money. It’s definitely becoming a rich mans sport this day in age. Having quality places to hunt pretty much takes big money unless you know someone. Not many getting it for nothing. I think guys that can consistently kill any buck on state land are far superior hunters than any of us who are hunting private land with food plots and control of human pressure. The state land hunter has so many more obstacles to overcome than the rest of us and I’m sure a lot of frustration with what they have to deal with. 


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

johnhunter247 said:


> I honestly don’t think any one guy is a better hunter than the next. Sure you need some skill but you definitely need lots of luck.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In every endeavor in life there are people who are considerably more skilled than the majority. 

For example, there's no comparison between a professional athlete and someone who played in high school. There's no comparison between a world class surgeon as compared to his peers. 

In terms of the topic at hand, there's no comparison between a hunter who is exceptional at every element of hunting as compared to those who have some skills and experience. The simple point I've been attempting to make is that not all celebrity hunters are great hunters but some are. No idea why that is so hard for some to grasp.

In a more general sense, the human tendency to imagine one's self as not that much different than those who are elite is fascinating to me.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

johnhunter247 said:


> What makes an above average hunter? The only thing that stands between a guy hunting state land and a guy hunting the best private land is money. I honestly don’t think any one guy is a better hunter than the next. Sure you need some skill but you definitely need lots of luck. But I truly believe money is the biggest factor. It takes a lot of money to put yourself in the position to consistently hunt mature deer. There are definitely exceptions. I think Eberhart is truly a great hunter. But for the majority the only thing that separates the guys consistently killing mature bucks and those that don’t is money. It’s definitely becoming a rich mans sport this day in age. Having quality places to hunt pretty much takes big money unless you know someone. Not many getting it for nothing. I think guys that can consistently kill any buck on state land are far superior hunters than any of us who are hunting private land with food plots and control of human pressure. The state land hunter has so many more obstacles to overcome than the rest of us and I’m sure a lot of frustration with what they have to deal with.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree. IMO two of the best are John Eberhart and Dan Infalt. I have found many of their observations to be on the money and similar to what I have experienced. Very good knowledge to be gained from these guys and neither are product selling ho's either. They prove you can get it done on public land which is a lot more challenging and both just seem to appreciate being outdoors.


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## Sasquatch Lives (May 23, 2011)

November Sunrise said:


> Survey 1,000 hunters with 20 years experience. I bet 90% of them would consider themselves to be above average hunters.


Survey 1,000 celebrity "pro" hunters and i bet 100% would consider themselves to be above average.


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## November Sunrise (Jan 12, 2006)

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Survey 1,000 celebrity "pro" hunters and i bet 100% would consider themselves to be above average.


I bet you're right.


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## Groundsize (Aug 29, 2006)

There is something about the Midwest! In two years I'll be making my way to Iowa with a bow tag in hand for zone 6. My plan is to find land I can hunt for the whole bow season if need be. I have the cash for a lease if I need but I will not pay an outfitter. My buddy and I will be able to make several trips down during the season to experience the BEST whitetail deer hunting in the world. Just the thought makes me smile.


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## on a call (Jan 16, 2010)

G20man said:


> Moral of the story is no buck no matter his genetics, location, nutrition, etc will ever show his potential if he is killed before the age of 3.5.
> I bet if more bucks made it to 3.5 in Michigan we'd see what we really could produce.
> Even "up north" where everyone claims they just don't get that big.


And I beg to differ with you on this too....I have seen some really hefty bucks that we were raising that were huge at 2.5 and at 3.5 were monsters. What happens at 3.5 and beyond is some mass additions no more spread, no more tines, no more much...but mass yes and deductions too.


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## NovemberWhitetailz (Oct 10, 2008)

johnhunter247 said:


> What makes an above average hunter? The only thing that stands between a guy hunting state land and a guy hunting the best private land is money. I honestly don’t think any one guy is a better hunter than the next. Sure you need some skill but you definitely need lots of luck. But I truly believe money is the biggest factor. It takes a lot of money to put yourself in the position to consistently hunt mature deer. There are definitely exceptions. I think Eberhart is truly a great hunter. But for the majority the only thing that separates the guys consistently killing mature bucks and those that don’t is money. It’s definitely becoming a rich mans sport this day in age. Having quality places to hunt pretty much takes big money unless you know someone. Not many getting it for nothing. I think guys that can consistently kill any buck on state land are far superior hunters than any of us who are hunting private land with food plots and control of human pressure. The state land hunter has so many more obstacles to overcome than the rest of us and I’m sure a lot of frustration with what they have to deal with.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is there anything in life where everyone is good? I mean maybe the guy that can kill the top 10% on his farm in Michigan can do the same in Iowa. But to say everyone is basically the same skill is naive. There's definitely enough information for everyone to hunt smart to improve there chances. But most people are lazy or impatient and don't do the work to be scent free or just hunt too much.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

on a call said:


> And I beg to differ with you on this too....I have seen some really hefty bucks that we were raising that were huge at 2.5 and at 3.5 were monsters. What happens at 3.5 and beyond is some mass additions no more spread, no more tines, no more much...but mass yes and deductions too.


I could care less about what happens inside a pen where you can provide them everything they need.


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## on a call (Jan 16, 2010)

Go stop by a good breeder and ask him. I am saying I know you can have monsters by 3.5 even 2.5 I have seen a group of fawns sporting racks 8's and even a 10 point



johnhunter247 said:


> Saying we don’t have the genetics is ridiculous. Only one reason there not here in abundance like they are in other states. It’s not rocket science. They must grow to there potential in order to see it. They must get to five years old in order for that to happen. There is no simpler way to explain it. The percentage of deer that make it to there potential here in Michigan has to be a staggeringly low percentage. The majority that do push or exceed the 170 mark and a few have even broke 200”. We definitely have the genetics in zone 3 of Michigan. What we don’t have is the hunter mentality because of the way tradition has been embedded and taught to hunters as kids in the past. I could care less about hunting pressure either. It has nothing to do with a deer making it to age five. The hunters trigger finger has everything to do with it. They must grow to 5/6 years old to reach there potential. There isn’t any other way for it to happen. Not every buck has the potential to be a 150+ but the majority do and only one way to find out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





G20man said:


> I could care less about what happens inside a pen where you can provide them everything they need.


What I care about is the over all health of a herd. So learning what can be done through selective breeding only show what is possible. Learning from fact beats shooting in the dark.


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## G20man (Sep 4, 2018)

on a call said:


> Go stop by a good breeder and ask him. I am saying I know you can have monsters by 3.5 even 2.5 I have seen a group of fawns sporting racks 8's and even a 10 point
> 
> 
> 
> What I care about is the over all health of a herd. So learning what can be done through selective breeding only show what is possible. Learning from fact beats shooting in the dark.


Good luck with selective breeding in the wild


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

on a call said:


> And I beg to differ with you on this too....I have seen some really hefty bucks that we were raising that were huge at 2.5 and at 3.5 were monsters. What happens at 3.5 and beyond is some mass additions no more spread, no more tines, no more much...but mass yes and deductions too.


This is definitely not true. I have years of trail cam pics to disprove that theory. Maybe private deer getting pumped full of steroids. But in the wild(Iowa) the majority of bucks make the huge jump from 4 to 5. That’s when they start growing all the extra junk. I have seen deer put on 40 to 60 inches between 4 and 5. I have even seen them add an extra point or two. From 5 to 6 they seem to add mostly mass. But no way no how can you see a bucks potential at 3. With that post I see no credibility in what you say. 


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

HUBBHUNTER2 said:


> Is there anything in life where everyone is good? I mean maybe the guy that can kill the top 10% on his farm in Michigan can do the same in Iowa. But to say everyone is basically the same skill is naive. There's definitely enough information for everyone to hunt smart to improve there chances.  But most people are lazy or impatient and don't do the work to be scent free or just hunt too much.


I agree with you. There is nothing in life where every one is good. I think everyone for the most part gets better with experience. But as far as deer hunting, sure you can research, read, experience, etc... I have killed many very good bucks in my life. But to say I’m an above average hunter because I have I would have to disagree. I think the majority of what I have done is because of patience more than anything, long hours on stand and money. It cost me a lot of money to put myself in the situations where I have been lucky enough to score on the caliber of deer I’m after. If I was stuck hunting Michigan state land I never would have killed anything close to the caliber of deer I want. I truly feel like a guy that has to hunt stateland in Michigan and can kill any buck consistently is probably a far superior hunter than I am. I use an Arsenal of methods I have learned over the years to make my hunting better, I have experience but with out money none of it would have ever been possible. Stateland here never would have gotten it done for me. 


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

johnhunter247 said:


> I agree with you. There is nothing in life where every one is good. I think everyone for the most part gets better with experience. But as far as deer hunting, sure you can research, read, experience, etc... I have killed many very good bucks in my life. But to say I’m an above average hunter because I have I would have to disagree. I think the majority of what I have done is because of patience more than anything, long hours on stand and money. It cost me a lot of money to put myself in the situations where I have been lucky enough to score on the caliber of deer I’m after. If I was stuck hunting Michigan state land I never would have killed anything close to the caliber of deer I want. I truly feel like a guy that has to hunt stateland in Michigan and can kill any buck consistently is probably a far superior hunter than I am. I use an Arsenal of methods I have learned over the years to make my hunting better, I have experience but with out money none of it would have ever been possible. Stateland here never would have gotten it done for me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This post kind of brings this discussion to full circle. You can't kill what isn't there. To your point (I think) I heard Bill Winke say something very similar. He is very open about the fact that he now hunts 1000 managed acres in Iowa that he worked very hard for many years to obtain. He started out with much more humble beginnings but stuck to his goal. Now that he is there he readily understands that his hunting situation is not the reality for 99% of all other deer hunters. He stated as far as skills go, he believes that someone in a heavily pressured area like Pennsylvania that consistently kills 2.5 year old bucks are probably better hunters then him. I get his point but having followed how he does things, not sure I agree, or even disagree. He is, IMO, the most humble "celebrity" hunting personality out there. Probably more of an apple to oranges thing.


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## johnhunter247 (Mar 12, 2011)

Dish7 said:


> This post kind of brings this discussion to full circle. You can't kill what isn't there. To your point (I think) I heard Bill Winke say something very similar. He is very open about the fact that he now hunts 1000 managed acres in Iowa that he worked very hard for many years to obtain. He started out with much more humble beginnings but stuck to his goal. Now that he is there he readily understands that his hunting situation is not the reality for 99% of all other deer hunters. He stated as far as skills go, he believes that someone in a heavily pressured area like Pennsylvania that consistently kills 2.5 year old bucks are probably better hunters then him. I get his point but having followed how he does things, not sure I agree, or even disagree. He is, IMO, the most humble "celebrity" hunting personality out there. Probably more of an apple to oranges thing.


If I was to pick one celebrity hunter to be a lead by example kind of guy it would definitely be bill Winke with Don Kisky being a close second. Bill Winke is just a class act. When your sitting in a tree stand in a highly managed farm in a place like Iowa you appreciate what it takes to make that happen. Killing a mature buck is great but what it takes to put a farm together and all the effort, money, hard work and passion for it comes first. But you definitely have to appreciate it. Especially if your a guy like myself who started out hunting in some very heavily pressured places like Michigan. 


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Bill Winke. There ya go.
I'll have to look for some online vids.

Always ,always enjoy his writings.
Locating target bucks aside....His stand approach alone leaves me in the dust.
One article , he waded in ; and I don't think he touched the ground before climbing...
And yes ,he has a humble approach to sharing his knowledge.

A couple days following him around when I started hunting deer over forty years ago would have had me light-years ahead of the learning curve. (!)


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## Dish7 (Apr 2, 2017)

Waif said:


> Bill Winke. There ya go.
> I'll have to look for some online vids.
> 
> Always ,always enjoy his writings.
> ...


http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Dish7 said:


> http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/


Bookmarked it! Thanks.
There is a lady present or I would be hunting this last day of the Independence Hunt...Starting an hour ago.
Furnace does not fire and my furnace "guy" ain't callin me back.
I have the fried igniter's part # , but being Sunday........A guy might locate a big buck first...


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## LabtechLewis (Nov 20, 2008)

Waif said:


> There is a lady present or I would be...


Well, there you have it. The rut has officially started...


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

LabtechLewis said:


> Well, there you have it. The rut has officially started...


What , you don't have a scrape through the carpet? 
I'd post a pic of the old one I keep enlarging, but it is not pretty.


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