# the gripe about c.o.'s



## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

Ya know a lot of threads and posts this year have contained a lot of the same old "snagger's everywhere but not a C.O insight".
So let's take some time to delve into the facts behind this elusive character the state of michigan has created.

They only get paid for a forty hour work week.
Absolutely no overtime.
Did I mention furlough days that are mandatory and take a year round employee and push them closer to being called seasonal.
Factor in court time.
Then throw in small game and bowhunting into the already full tilt snag festival.
Wait I forgot a lunch break.
Maybe stop to take a leak or gas up the truck.

Due to the state of our economy and the necessary budget cuts the C.O.'s are screwed.
Next year they will probably be asked to buy there own ammunition and put there own gas in state owned trucks.
They do the best they can with the resources they are given.
As said in another thread if the RAP line does not work any LEO (state, county, township) should be able to assist if you see something going on that will require law enforcement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## streamertosser (May 20, 2008)

spot on!


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Great post! You forgot to mention the part about their herd being thinned out in those budget cuts and some CO's have to cover up to three counties at the same time. 

Less, less, less, less and even less--so much so that the DNR is leasing out the fish cleaning station at Tippy so it helps off set the cost of operating the access site as a whole and yeah...we don't any license fee increases, do we? :16suspect


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## gibsalmon (Nov 17, 2008)

Yes, call the authorities upon any suspicous hooking activity. I spoke with a friend of mine today. He said there were police officers at tippy recently. He told me the funniest thing. NO ONE was casting... huh go figure that one out.


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## neazor91 (Aug 4, 2008)

Look at what is going on right now. Salmon fishing, deer hunting, small game hunting, duck hunting, lake fishing, and the list goes on. I think they do an incredible job with their numbers. My hat's off to them.

Mike


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## Fishslayer5789 (Mar 1, 2007)

If anyone wants to know what the DNR is up to and who they are nailing, just read the bi-weekly reports they put on their site. It can be located at http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/BIWEEKLY_9-6-10__to_9-19-10_333478_7.pdf

I enjoy reading these reports every once in a while, because there is plenty good ones to laugh at. I also like to see what has been accomplished and what officers are making the major busts. Every report is always a very entertaining read, whether the stories are actually funny or just plain shocking.


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## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

Fishslayer5789 said:


> If anyone wants to know what the DNR is up to and who they are nailing, just read the bi-weekly reports they put on their site. It can be located at http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/BIWEEKLY_9-6-10__to_9-19-10_333478_7.pdf
> 
> I enjoy reading these reports every once in a while, because there is plenty good ones to laugh at. I also like to see what has been accomplished and what officers are making the major busts. Every report is always a very entertaining read, whether the stories are actually funny or just plain shocking.


My favorite this year has been the two tickler rig up at Tippy. 

Hey, if we can rig with long leaders and two flies, what's a two tickler rig gonna hurt in the grand scheme of things?  :lol:


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## salmo'dog (Aug 24, 2007)

I have had a few lengthy conversations with a CO this year and they definately are spread way too thin. He was telling me that the prerequisites have been lowered to enter the DNR CO program. He went on to say that more officers are retiring and the spots are not being filled quick enough or at all. 

I asked him why the state no longer has the VCO (Volunteer Conservation Officer) program??? He was not sure exactly why, but suspicion has it that some people that were VCO's at one time took things a little too far. I trold him that they should screen individuals thoroughly for the VCO program, because there are plenty of us that would do it for the right reasons and by the laws and rules we would have to follow.

It is pretty sad to not have enforcement readily available at times, but yes, the state and local LEO's can enforce action if they are available as well.


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## diztortion (Sep 6, 2009)

thousandcasts said:


> My favorite this year has been the two tickler rig



Really... :16suspect


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## streamertosser (May 20, 2008)

oh yeah... i've seen it a number of times... pretty rediculous, seen group of guys from indiana last season with their pool cues, para-cord and double turks ticklers. just shook my head as i went by, then ofcourse they had to ask if there was any dnr down there(by the river) some people...


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## JCM (Dec 17, 2002)

&#8220;because there are plenty of us that would do it for the right reasons and by the laws and rules we would have to follow&#8221;

I&#8217;d like to think that your optimism regarding people willing to help out would be correct. That type of volunteer work takes many hours and weeks if not months of commitment and formal training, not to mention the amount of time an individual would be patrolling. I have attempted to pick up heads for the fall Riverwatch for Just a one day a year obligation and have had trouble getting any significant numbers of people. This is the simplest of volunteer work: Training&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.if needed is very brief and on the spot just before our watch. There are no fees for classes or uniforms, nothing&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;just a walk-in and do it volunteer group open to nearly anyone that wishes to help. 

A couple years ago when I was having trouble picking up heads for the Riverwatch, a regular on MS was a little irked as to how many people we did NOT have and put a post up on MS stating we needed volunteers for ONE day to assist the CO&#8217;s. When not even one person came forward, he was pretty surprised.

A couple weeks ago Whit put a post up asking either hutch or myself to come forward with some info for a reader. I put the info up, one post followed (from one of our regular volunteers) and no conversation or interest followed and the post dropped down the page. Having the same amount of (Dis)interest shown over the last 10 years to help the CO's when the DNR is cutting everything around them (and sometimes them) is what makes me think it would be hard to get people to volunteer. I have not given up trying to get help and never will, even if I am the last one there.

I&#8217;d certainly like to think that a program like you describe could exist and would be successful in drawing volunteers. If you cannot draw help for the DNR through this site and others like it that discuss and promote outdoor activities I really dont know where else to look.

Jim






salmo'dog said:


> I have had a few lengthy conversations with a CO this year and they definately are spread way too thin. He was telling me that the prerequisites have been lowered to enter the DNR CO program. He went on to say that more officers are retiring and the spots are not being filled quick enough or at all.
> 
> I asked him why the state no longer has the VCO (Volunteer Conservation Officer) program??? He was not sure exactly why, but suspicion has it that some people that were VCO's at one time took things a little too far. I trold him that they should screen individuals thoroughly for the VCO program, because there are plenty of us that would do it for the right reasons and by the laws and rules we would have to follow.
> 
> It is pretty sad to not have enforcement readily available at times, but yes, the state and local LEO's can enforce action if they are available as well.


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## big_phish (Jan 1, 2009)

River watches have always helped to some extent but how many of us would support a volunteer effort by sportsmen if we were given the ability to hand out tickets and fines. Has anyone mentioned this? Possibly a small course for those who wants to do it and be ready for a specific times of each year such as this to help patrol along our rivers and woods. You would still be allowed to fish and hunt but also have the power to bust someone who is visibly snagging or poaching. I know I would do it in a heartbeat.


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## malidewd (Sep 11, 2006)

I would volunteer also. I hate nothing more than seeing people snag fish. I would be limited to my home waters, but would jump at the opportunity to bust some snaggers.

I am also all for a fee increase on licenses. I'll still pay for my fishing license no matter what it costs because I love to fish. I can't see how anyone could complain about an increase when 1/2 of the guys on the river are using $200-300 fishing rods. I can't even afford to buy a $30 Traverse Bay rod to replace the one I broke, but I will still pay for an increase.


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## Queequeg (Aug 10, 2007)

Nobody here is going to be a big fan of this, but it boils down to taxes. If we continue to cut taxes then this will be the norm. In my town (an affluent SE Michigan town) the fire department has been laid off...yes, every one of them. Thus, if there is a fire the city said the EMS guys will put it out. All this so that they could say they cut taxes for the average Joe. 

Personally, I'd rather pay a little more in taxes and have the assurance that a guy that is trained to do a job like fight fires is there when I need him/her. And I also would like a guy that is trained in trauma when I get in a car accident. 

Tax me...please!

(I'm not being sarcastic either)


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## mrjimspeaks (Aug 23, 2009)

First off I wholeheartedly agree with this post. Its not an easy job either I'd imagine.

That is what the story is going to be in Michigan everywhere soon. The next governor has some real budget problems to look deal with. It doesn't look like there will be anymore stimulus money(some of it earmarked for education) to plug the gaps with either. At some point we are going to have to ask ourselves do we want the functions of government we're accustomed to? Parks, boat launches, roads, etc. etc. etc. Its going to be either raise taxes or get ready for the axe to fall on just about everything in the state. Couple that with increased privatization of basic services. A lot of this debate carries over to the National Stage as well. I apologize for jacking this thread, but this was in the back of my mind as I read it. Had to throw in my 02.


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## Crowhunter (Aug 27, 2005)

Lots of people have had to make cuts in the way they live ,does anyone know what they get for a salary ? Bud


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## foxriver6 (Oct 23, 2007)

$18.66-$26.84 an hour, 30 year retirement, no pension

http://web1mdcs.state.mi.us/HRJobSpecifications/JobSpecifications.aspx


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## Fishslayer5789 (Mar 1, 2007)

thousandcasts said:


> My favorite this year has been the two tickler rig up at Tippy.
> 
> Hey, if we can rig with long leaders and two flies, what's a two tickler rig gonna hurt in the grand scheme of things?  :lol:


HA! I just pictured the set-up. I visualized a 3-way swivel with a leader off of each end going to a tickler. It would look like a set of nunchucks flying through the air. I'll bet that WAS pretty effective!:lol:


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## JCM (Dec 17, 2002)

big_phish said:


> River watches have always helped to some extent but how many of us would support a volunteer effort by sportsmen if we were given the ability to hand out tickets and fines. Has anyone mentioned this? Possibly a small course for those who wants to do it and be ready for a specific times of each year such as this to help patrol along our rivers and woods. You would still be allowed to fish and hunt but also have the power to bust someone who is visibly snagging or poaching. I know I would do it in a heartbeat.


I believe that the ability to hand out tickets and fines would not fall into the hands of the volunteer. Yes&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;we all have the right to make citizen arrests and so on but in the event that there were court dates to attend and testimony possibly on multiple dates, I believe that the average Joe is not going to be able to skip out on his job to attend multiple court events that could very possibly occur. Not to mention the potential issues arising from the person that you are issuing a ticket to for snagging. You think he&#8217;s going to have some nobody costing him a significant amount of money and interrupting his &#8220;Fishing&#8221; trip? Suppose he&#8217;s packing and loaded! Another thing that I see on the river year after year is people that have warrants out for their arrest for various offenses. Suppose you stop some guy and issue him a ticket. How are you going to run his profile on the LEIN (Law Enforcement Information Network) to find out if he is a wanted felon? I think there is way more potential for issues in the field with regular guys tangling with people with an unknown history. The first thing the CO&#8217;s (or any officer) does is find out who they are dealing with, it is very dangerous to do otherwise. If you read the DNR&#8217;s C.O.'s Bi-weekly reports you&#8217;d be surprised how many of &#8220;Those&#8221; people the CO&#8217;s come across during the Salmon season alone. It could be very a very unpleasant outcome for the temp CO and very possibly his family too. 
Our watch really does 2 things: 
1) During the daytime we only act as a peer deterrent. We know people only stop snagging when we go by, but at least it lets them know someone is at the river that is looking for people not fishing within the law. If nothing else it keeps them guessing when they do not see us. We did the night watches for a couple years too and we mostly extend the eyes of the DNR.

2) At night we acted as extended eyes for the CO's.
When we did the night watch I have been partnered up with the same volunteer for 2 years. We actually became very efficient working the south side. We drove across the dam and went down the hill to the river with a few CO&#8217;s. We split up slightly and stayed in radio contact with each other and gave the CO&#8217;s one also. Between the two of us we were able to keep the CO&#8217;s on the south side of the Manistee at tippy going from one violator to another without really having to stop and search. They have to witness the offense that generates the ticket and are adamant about NOT issuing any tickets unless it is 100% that there is a violation taking place.

The way we did the watches enabled us to pass along very fresh information to the officer that was within close proximity to us and also had my 3rd 2 way radio. We'd pass the info along to the officer by radio and when we got close enough to each other we'd tell him who, what and so on. They would observe for a time and witness whatever taking place, go down to the river and ask the individuals to come to shore. It can be very rewarding to see the information you have provided the officers result in tickets being issued almost immediately to the violators. For anyone that has witnessed people get away with this kind of activity, even though it is a very small victory in the scheme of things, it is a great feeling to know you&#8217;ve helped the people that think this kind of activity is perfectly ok get dinged with some pretty significant fines. 

The CO&#8217;s have what some think is a great job. Where it may be a neat job to have for some reasons, it is a thankless job when you go with them and see the crap they have to put up with. They&#8217;ve got to deal with the worst of the worst when it comes to the tippy snaggers(and elsewhere) and not to mention the danger they put themselves in at nearly every situation they come across. More often than not the person they are facing has some kind of weapon. I&#8217;d be worried if my wife did what I see these girl CO&#8217;s have to do. These are some of the nicest people you&#8217;d ever meet (as are the guys) but when I hear the crap they have to deal with it is just plain ridiculous.

I think the bottom line is the fines for offenses should be close to ridiculous. Let the people that mess it up put a Little more cash in. Canada and Alaska really stick it to the outlaws. I do not have any solid $ figures but heard they really stick it to 'em. That alone will not make much difference in solving the money issue but if they can raise the license fees and do a few things here and there I believe they could make some significant changes.

I do believe the Government of Michigan thinks they have bigger problems to deal with. I think if the state officials paid a little attention to the natural resources this state has to offer and used a little common sense, they could reap some good long range dividends if they played their cards right.

Since I started writing this I have gotten 2 requests to put names on the watch list for next year. If anyone else has any interest in adding their name to that list please send me an e-mail at: 

[email protected]

In the big picture the watch really is not much but it is my belief that it is better to make an effort than do nothing. I really appreciate the volunteers we do get, as do the officers we assist. Thanks to Sgt. Hackworth who goes out of his way to make sure we can be utilized each year, and he wanted to be sure that his thanks are given out to those that participated in the watches this year and years past too. 
I'd like to thank all that helped out also, and am looking forward to having some new faces for next year too. I certainly appreciate any new volunteers we can muster up.

Many thanks to all.

Jim


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## malidewd (Sep 11, 2006)

Make the fines for snagging outrageous, like $300 per snagged fish or $1000 for attempting to snag a fish. You lose your right to fish for 5 years. All your gear you have on you gets confinscated and distributed back to me. See how many snaggers come back and try it again.


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

Whit1 said:


> Originally Posted by *wdf73*
> _On the drive home, my wife and I talked over the situation and came to the following conclusion. It appears the DNR has no interest at all in preventing snagging; only in the revenue raised by fines. !_
> 
> 
> ...


Let me preface my post by admitting that I'm not well versed in the aspects of "where the money" goes. What I do know is,, there is A LOT of waste, and not enough money going to the right places. 

From what I understand MI has some hunter and fisherman friendly legislator's now,, so how bout this...

Some sort of restitution or a "revision" of the current restitution laws(if there are any in MI)???

Not "court costs, county fee, the goofball fund",,, just flat out ADD "restitution" ON TOP of all the other fee's. 

I'd be surprised if our sly legislator's would have any opposition to this... Just an idea...


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## Bushie (Sep 23, 2010)

Whit1 said:


> I've seen a lot of off-brand ideas on this site over the years, but this one is one of the most ludicrous. The state does NOT provide vehicles for legislators. Legislators are given reimbursement for mileage from their home to Lansing once a week and reimbursement for mileage to events (only in their district) related to their legislative duties. They are not given mileage for campaign events or events out of their district.


You sir are correct and i recant my illinformed statement and apologize for not properly researching it. Turns out that was a poor example of state government corruption but I believe my point stands. To raise lisence fees and fines is nothing more then a bandaid on a bullet hole.

I love all the good intentions and just ideas in this thread and apologize if i come across as a prick as that is not my intention. Seems a lot of people just jump to a fee raise or make fines bigger and ignore the real problems. Michigans population has shrunk considerably over the last decade yet the government hasn't. The public sector jobs havn't decreased at a rate proportional to the loss of population and available tax base.

Remember people, we don't work for the government they work for us. I will remove my previous statement that is incorrect.


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## Bushie (Sep 23, 2010)

Whit1 said:


> I've seen a lot of off-brand ideas on this site over the years, but this one is one of the most ludicrous. The state does NOT provide vehicles for legislators. Legislators are given reimbursement for mileage from their home to Lansing once a week and reimbursement for mileage to events (only in their district) related to their legislative duties. They are not given mileage for campaign events or events out of their district.


Seems i can't edit my misinformation out of the old post.


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## wdf73 (Sep 14, 2009)

Whit1 said:


> Originally Posted by *wdf73*
> _On the drive home, my wife and I talked over the situation and came to the following conclusion. It appears the DNR has no interest at all in preventing snagging; only in the revenue raised by fines. !_
> 
> 
> ...


You are right Whit, what I am referring to are the 'restitution fees'. For a larger animal like a deer, turkey, elk etc. the restitution penalty is $1000.00. 
I do not know if fish even have a similar fee, but I doubt it is as high if they do. Hence, if the DNR is in need of funds it makes more fiscal sense to target one person who shoots a deer 5 minutes after legal shooting hours versus 50 snaggers.


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