# Tippy Dam Skamania



## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

Fished for the first time, tried it at Tippy Dam. My brother went 0-1, lost a 14-15lb fish at the net. I never hit a skam, but did pull in lot's of browns, and smolts, my biggest brown was probably 15", seen some bigger ones landed. I seen three other summer-runs hooked, two landed, both small, about 6-7lbs.Do they have stream rainbow's below Tippy? Because I lost a a rainbow around 20-22", which would be to big for a smolt, and to small for a skam, so I'm not sure. But it was a beautiful day on a great river, I really like this river now, I'm definanetly going to try it for salmon, there's some great water there. The hot baits for browns were crawlers, and crayfish, and every skam I seen hooked/landed, was on a crawler, either whole or half. basically, there are a few fish in, and I guess, according to the locals, the skamania run started two weeks ago, and should pick-up in the next two weeks, can't wait till they're really in.


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## gunrod (Jan 16, 2001)

My experience is that the skam run peaks around the 4th of July. Crawlers have always been our best bait. That 22" bow could be a small skam. Skams are generally smaller in weight then steelies but longer, sleeker but acrobatic. There are some rainbows in the river but generally it warms too much and they run for the lake. I don't know how some of the browns make it all summer up there. You'll see tons of small (probably planters) browns up by the damn all summer but they look for cool run off and are very sluggish. The rest become lake runs or find tribs and springs cool enough to sustain them.

They really need a bottom draw for the dam up there. I would've thought they would have put the bottom draw in when they re-vamped the damn a few years ago but they didn't. They only worked on the north side of the damn so maybe if they work on the south side they will put the bottom draw in.

Thanks for the report, sort of. I was hoping the skams would be alittle late this year since I'm on vacation beginning July 9th through the 21st up there.  Glad you had some luck but it looks like the best is still to come.


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## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

hmmm, thanks for the report A-S i may have to change some of my plans this week.


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## gunrod (Jan 16, 2001)

Agreed SS. Matter of fact I got my info from you on a long phone conversation. Then tested it out with some of my trips north during the summer.

I've seen many a browns above the coffer during July sitting under a run off from the hills above. They are pretty sluggish though and I don't think many of them make it much longer past then (I don't make it up often in August to check on them). The browns are so sluggish you can't get them to take anything and I've watched crawfish waddle right through the schools with out fear. Nothing touches them. 

Kind of sad when you think about it.


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## toto (Feb 16, 2000)

I was emailing Tom Rozich back and forth yesterday, and he says they aren't skamania steelhead they are catching there. He claims they are the regular ones that are still coming up. He sited the numbers at the weir on the Little Manistee as an example. In looking at the numbers on the Little Man, he appears to be correct in the sense that they are still counting maybe a dozen per day coming in. What can I tell ya. I certainlly don't know, but I would hope he would. So if thats true, the skams are still to come.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

It makes absolutely zero sense to say that adding equipment for bottom draw to hydro generating dams will not be worth it during the hottest months. It is a very simple leap of faith to understand that adding cold water to hot water will cool the hot water. Anyone who does not understand that should do some experimenting in the shower. ANY colder water added to the warm water coming through dams will cool the water downstream. The effect will be lesser the further downstream you move from the dam, because the hot weather will cause the water to warm as it moves down; but there would have to be a benefit to the areas closer to the dams - perhaps for several miles downstream.

What was your source?, and what experiment was used to determine this? I do not ever remember trial equipment being installed at Tippy to find out if this was practical or not.

If the Big Man could be maintained below 65* throughout the Summer, some of the millions of Steelhead (including some Skamanias, I am sure) that are hatched each year might actually survive to give us an even better fishery than we already have.
Since Consumer's agreed to install bottom draw equipement as part of their long term (50 years, I believe) lease on the dams in Michigan, they should be required to add the equipment, period. If the State does not force that issue, they are not representing the Citizens properly. Think about that next time you vote.


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## gunrod (Jan 16, 2001)

> It makes absolutely zero sense to say that adding equipment for bottom draw to hydro generating dams will not be worth it during the hottest months. It is a very simple leap of faith to understand that adding cold water to hot water will cool the hot water.


I don't think anyone disagrees with you there. The problem lies in the fact that the water in the Tippy backwaters isn't very cold. This is evident in the fact that few - if any - trout are caught behind the damn. And the Pine dumps into the backwaters. Actually, the last mile or two of the river up to the Red Bridge take out doesn't hold trout. You can kill the smallies and walleye back there though. Even the last mile or so of the Pine River (one of the coldest waters in Michigan) hold few trout.

The back waters and last mile or two of Manistee river above Red Bridge are very shallow, slow and sandy. This causes the water to warm too much. I believe this is why SS suggested there should be a study into bottom draws for both dams. This may create enough cold water for you to see results at Tippy. At least in the first mile or too.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

I was not trying to argue with SplitShot, just the logic he has been handed. I got the same thing from Consumer's Energy when I inquired a year or so ago, and it is silly. I would be willing to bet that the water on the bottom of Tippy dam pond, right at the dam, is probably 55* or cooler. Water stratifies, and the bottom water will be much colder, regardless of the water temps a couple miles above the dam. 
Bottom draw at both Tippy and the next dam upstream would be an even better option of course.
States in the Northwest, where Salmon and Steelhead are native, spend tons of time and money to ensure that their fisheries are supported at the level sportsmen, and the fish, require. Even though they do have tons of natural reproduction in most rivers, they still plant hatchery fish in HUGE numbers, and take all sorts of other measures to help the fish thrive, despite the effects of civilization on the rivers and fish. The State of Michigan already has a fantastic resource that could be so much better with just a little more stewardship and commitment by the DNR. Little things like increased hatchery numbers and production; adding bottom draw equipment to rivers with hydro dams; curtailing pollution and thwarting unethical (and illegal) practices like snagging, all would contribute to even better fishing than we already have. Don't get me wrong, I love the resources we have - just think they could and should be significantly improved with a little work and money. I would think nearly everyone in our State would want to see improvements, regardless of their inclination to take advantage or not.


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## gunrod (Jan 16, 2001)

Agreed.


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## Hemish (Feb 3, 2003)

Think a bottom draw on Foote Dam (Au Sable) would aid natural reproduction of salmon/steel at all? Or is it too warm in upper Foote pond? Maybe there already is a bottom draw, dunno. Anyone?


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

According to Tom Rozich additional thermocline studies of the ponds will be performed. He mentioned this at the Muskegon Meeting.

To me it would really depend on the depth of the pond at the Dam. If a defined thermocline exists, with an abundance of the cool water, it may prove to be worthwhile.
On the other hand, if only a small cold water pocket forms, it would be depleted within hours and warm water would once again go through the dam, regardless of top or bottom draw


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## mondrella (Dec 27, 2001)

Well said Splitshot,
I would love to see all the dams be bottom feed systems if it would allow the fish to survive. My Dad has worked for consumers for nearly 25 years. I asked him abut this issue of bottom feed dams when it came up over the Mo. He looked into it for me and I got a lot of info on it. Consumers is willing to do this if it will be practical for the river system. I understand more about the Muskegon system than the Manistee because I looked into it. 
To turn croton into a bottom draw dam the cost was a unbelievable amount. I can't remember the exact figure. Due to the depth of croton pond and the flow rate of water coming out of the dam the cool water would be used in short order. So lets turn Hardy into a bottom draw system also. This pond may have the depth and water volume to keep the river much cooler. Now your dumping cold water into croton pond that is possibly one of the best warm water fisheries in the state. Is it worth stunting the growth of smallies, walleyes, and other fish that live there and are utlilized by the public and bussiness in the area to maintan a trout fishery?
I am all for more and better trout but to destroy a already existing system to accomplish it? Besides on the Mo even above the dams I have taken water temps as high as 81. It is a trout killer in itself. I guess the same may be true for the Manistee. I would rather see the DNR allow them to remain top feed systems if they are not going to help enough and allow Consumers to continue to operate at its cost range. Who is going to pay in the end for changing the Dams? In today's world we have to balance the success of bussinesses and the outdoors and it is not going to change. I would be more in favor of changing the regs on those waters to allow the fish to be harvested. We might as well get the most bang for our buck as to just throw it away.


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## PET (Aug 23, 2002)

My wife and I fished Tippy and a few miles below on 06/26 and 06/27. She got one brown and I got two. Fishing was slow, though water temperature got somewhat improved. 

I was told five steelheads were taken at that day.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Like Ray mentioned, many of us myself included, have bashed, or wanted to bash the DNR about the lack of persistance in change for the "good of the fishery" or "hunting experience". 

BUT, keep in mind that what's good for you may not spark any interest in others. The skam project was one of them. In the days of reduced budgets, they do try to get the most bang for the buck. Most of us do not realize the amount of homework the DNR really does. 

Even with the reduced budgets our DNR does a fabulous job managing the resources. Fish and wildlife populations are not managed with instant results. It takes years to see the final impact. If during the time of a given project it deems itself a failure it may be abandoned. Why throw good money after bad. There are no rule books, management tools are limited, as are the funds and most of the feasible projects are implemented.

Our trout rivers are constantly being monitored, improved and planted to provide the maximum experience with the resources available.

No complaints here....


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## ZobZob (Oct 27, 2002)

I agree with Shoeman. We are so fortunate to have trout and salmon in Michigan period. Although there are always ways to improve things, the DNR has a budget that they have to do a cost/benefit analysis on everything. It's just like any corporation that a lot of us have probably worked for at some point in our lives. I think they are doing a great job. With so many rivers and and the world's largest freshwater supply to manage on a paltry budget they are forced to pick their battles and utilize their financial resources and manpower where the biggest benefits can be attained. 

Zob


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## ausable_steelhead (Sep 30, 2002)

I think it'd depend on the pond, I will use the Au Sable back water's for example, Both Foote, and Cooke ponds are almost 50' deep right at the dam, you can't tell me that the water's not cooler in 50' of water? I think bottom draw would be nice.


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