# I'm not a trapper but!!



## 9 (Jan 17, 2000)

CHASINEYES said:


> Seldom,
> 
> I gotcha on the small game hunting. I totally agree. When I think of hunting these days, I'm kind of blinded archery deer hunting.
> 
> Though I understand that guys frustration if he was having a hard time finding a place to trap, he would have been better served by putting the pen down and go door knocking. Wow!


 I was going to use goose hunting as an example as well but I've only observed that but I've never seen two different groups of goose hunters with their spreads side-by-side. The next field over but not side-by-side.

I told him when he called, which was before the letter writing, that he just needed to keep looking and asking but didn't accept my suggestion.


----------



## 9 (Jan 17, 2000)

There was a sequel to the young fella that wanted to "follow me around". In December of that year the young fella called and ask if I was trapping coyote on the property and I said yes. He was instantly pizz'ed-off. He told me that he and a friend(now we have a friend and a friend of a friend using the property) wanted to pat hunt with a "great" birddog on the property. He had the balls to ask me to remove my traps and I laughed and told him I most certainly wasn't and he maybe would get his first lesson in how to practice catch-release with coyote traps!


----------



## doggk9 (Aug 27, 2006)

I understand it is hard to find land to hunt and trap. Knocking on a door and gaining permission is different than seeing a post and saying "Can I do it too? AND before the other guy? " I've hunted private land with others and respect their space. I've tried to be considerate when coming and going so I didn't disrupt their hunt. I hunted land for 12 years where the landowner would let pretty much anyone hunt. Me and a friend where the only ones who remained the entire time. We lost a lot of equipment and had our hunts ruined many times, but kept our ethics. I understand sharing land if it comes to light after, but would never hunt a property if the owner told me "I already have a few guys but you can too." I also have a fair amount of private property I hunt with a friend and would never side step to gain access for myself. But, I will also admit that even at 35 I have been told multiple times I have an old soul. I was raised old school, and value many ethics that seem to be fading away. A person's word and reputation should always be more important than their money.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

Speaking as a land owner, unless I've been paid for exclusive trapping rights. I'll keep giving other guys permission to trap until the varmints are gone. There's no exclusive entitlement to trapping on my land unless I say there is. A trapper who is too lazy to take out the tough ones gives up any "right" to expect "ethics".


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

WinkyJ said:


> Speaking as a land owner, unless I've been paid for exclusive trapping rights. I'll keep giving other guys permission to trap until the varmints are gone. There's no exclusive entitlement to trapping on my land unless I say there is. A trapper who is too lazy to take out the tough ones gives up any "right" to expect "ethics".


Good luck with that :lol:


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> Good luck with that :lol:


Ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons? It's a proven way to deplete a resource. Private land has value to trappers because they don't have to compete with everyone who has access to public land. If that's not worth a little dedication to predator control, as opposed to fur farming, then trappers can go trap somewhere else.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Ever heard of "take your property and shove it" ? :lol:
or 
Too many cooks spoil the broth?

There's a couple of people that I've trapped for that I won't again, unless the money they pay is real good and there's a couple that "there isn't enough money". As for the majority, we get along fine.

Go ahead, let it be a free for all. Please come back and tell us how it went  :lol:


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> Ever heard of "take your property and shove it" ? :lol:
> or
> Too many cooks spoil the broth?
> 
> ...


Go ahead. Trap public land. Tell me how fun that was. If you aren't going to do me any good, I wouldn't want you on my land anyway.

If you're not good enough to deserve exclusivity, trying to tell other trappers to leave "your territory" alone, and whining about the loss of ethics, is what I would expect of someone who doesn't have any respect for the land owner. If I was convinced that a trapper was working hard enough to try to rid my property of ***** and yotes, that would be payment enough. If you can't convince me, why would I tell someone else not to try?


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

WinkyJ said:


> Go ahead. Trap public land. Tell me how fun that was. If you aren't going to do me any good, I wouldn't want you on my land anyway.
> 
> If you're not good enough to deserve exclusivity, trying to tell other trappers to leave "your territory" alone, and whining about the loss of ethics, is what I would expect of someone who doesn't have any respect for the land owner. If I was convinced that a trapper was working hard enough to try to rid my property of ***** and yotes, that would be payment enough. If you can't convince me, why would I tell someone else not to try?



Not knowing what it entails or what to realistically expect is very important. No one is going to leave much of anything "for seed". 100 trappers may marginally trap more than one good one and you won't end up with stolen property, damaged property, etc. and no one individual to look too.

I don't trap public property, I don't need to and I don't ask for any more private property to trap, people are still calling me


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

One more FYI. The fur prices I've seen this year are 1/2 what they have been and some worse than that. Gas prices are down but it still means that the trapper is paying to trap and if he's really good, he may just pay for his gas, not wear and tear or supplies.


----------



## casscityalum (Aug 27, 2007)

Seldom said:


> If you meant to say it was a CRP field, those were my favorite types of habitat.



Just an FYI there is crp and crep fields. Both look same but have different rules etc.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> Not knowing what it entails or what to realistically expect is very important. No one is going to leave much of anything "for seed". 100 trappers may marginally trap more than one good one and you won't end up with stolen property, damaged property, etc. and no one individual to look too.
> 
> I don't trap public property, I don't need to and I don't ask for any more private property to trap, people are still calling me


How can you call him a good one if he won't get the job done to the satisfaction of the land owner?



> One more FYI. The fur prices I've seen this year are 1/2 what they have been and some worse than that. Gas prices are down but it still means that the trapper is paying to trap and if he's really good, he may just pay for his gas, not wear and tear or supplies.


If trappers did a better job of reducing the supply through predator control, wouldn't the price go up?


----------



## ratherboutside (Mar 19, 2010)

WinkyJ said:


> How can you call him a good one if he won't get the job done to the satisfaction of the land owner?
> In the case where the landowner has an unrealistic expectation of the impact of trapping on his "varmint" problem, one could be a great trapper and not satisfy a landowner.
> 
> 
> If trappers did a better job of reducing the supply through predator control, wouldn't the price go up?


No, the price is on the demand side in this case. The fur supply I believe is pretty constant but the demand goes up and down. People do it more as a hobby and thus the price doesn't effect whether they trap. Reducing the predator population by trapping to the point of limiting supply do to lack of animals is an unrealistic expectation. Not enough people trap to have that level of impact.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

ratherboutside said:


> No, the price is on the demand side in this case. The fur supply I believe is pretty constant but the demand goes up and down. People do it more as a hobby and thus the price doesn't effect whether they trap. Reducing the predator population by trapping to the point of limiting supply do to lack of animals is an unrealistic expectation. Not enough people trap to have that level of impact.


The price is never only on the demand side. Constancy of the supply doesn't imply that supply does not influence the price. If enough predator control occurs to make the fur rare, the price will go up.

Trappers trap as a hobby, because they enjoy doing it. And they enjoy doing it on private land that they do not own, which means the land owner has something they want (access to private land) and the trapper offers something the land owner wants (pest removal). But if the trapper only wants prime fur and doesn't commit to predator control, why should he have exclusive access to the land?


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

WinkyJ said:


> How can you call him a good one if he won't get the job done to the satisfaction of the land owner?
> 
> 
> 
> If trappers did a better job of reducing the supply through predator control, wouldn't the price go up?


Out west they poison, trap and areal gun coyotes and they still have them. 
We can't do that here, so what are the odds that a landowner that knows nothing about it, is going to be satisfied?

Let everyone and their brother out there and you'll end up with educated coyotes that will require a high level if skill to get and that won't be cheap. Or if you dont tuink it's tough, you could get a couple traps and some Alpo and give it a try.

The market is mainly foreign fashion. $20 coyotes are a lot of work and not very economical.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> Out west they poison, trap and areal gun coyotes and they still have them.
> We can't do that here, so what are the odds that a landowner that knows nothing about it, is going to be satisfied?
> 
> Let everyone and their brother out there and you'll end up with educated coyotes that will require a high level if skill to get and that won't be cheap. Or if you dont tuink it's tough, you could get a couple traps and some Alpo and give it a try.
> ...


All I'm reading is a series of excuses for not committing to predator control.


----------



## 9 (Jan 17, 2000)

casscityalum said:


> Just an FYI there is crp and crep fields. Both look same but have different rules etc.


:lol:Here I thought he added a key!:lol: Thanks for the enlightenment because I hadn't heard of it orin a property owner mentioned I took it for CRP.

I'm only concerned about the fact that Mr & Mrs coyote call it their "winter food pantry" so when I'm driving down the road eyeballing coyote killing properties anything with tall, thick grasses in the winter never fails to catch my eye as a "coyote killing field".


----------



## magnumhntr (Aug 18, 2003)

WinkyJ said:


> All I'm reading is a series of excuses for not committing to predator control.


All I'm reading is a series of questions meant to stir the pot. At the end of the day it's about respect for one another, and the ethics of how you treat your fellow sportsman. Some have it ~ some don't ~ simple as that....

-Chris


----------



## magnumhntr (Aug 18, 2003)

WinkyJ said:


> The price is never only on the demand side. Constancy of the supply doesn't imply that supply does not influence the price. If enough predator control occurs to make the fur rare, the price will go up.
> 
> Trappers trap as a hobby, because they enjoy doing it. And they enjoy doing it on private land that they do not own, which means the land owner has something they want (access to private land) and the trapper offers something the land owner wants (pest removal). But if the trapper only wants prime fur and doesn't commit to predator control, why should he have exclusive access to the land?



Or the exact opposite may happen ~ not enough furs similar in size/color/grade means no-one is interested because garment manufacturers want like furs in quantity. That's why the ranch market is so hot...

Furthermore ~ who's to say the trapper cannot do both? 2-3 weeks to wait for the animal to prime isn't going to make or break whether a farmer/landowner decides to let 1 person or 10 on their property ~ most of them that I know wouldn't know the difference unless someone told them. They are also smart enough to know that total eradication is not possible with most species of fur bearer, regardless of how many people they allow...

-Chris


----------



## ratherboutside (Mar 19, 2010)

WinkyJ said:


> The price is never only on the demand side. Constancy of the supply doesn't imply that supply does not influence the price. If enough predator control occurs to make the fur rare, the price will go up.
> 
> Trappers trap as a hobby, because they enjoy doing it. And they enjoy doing it on private land that they do not own, which means the land owner has something they want (access to private land) and the trapper offers something the land owner wants (pest removal). But if the trapper only wants prime fur and doesn't commit to predator control, why should he have exclusive access to the land?


Sorry some of my original post got cut off some how. 

My first answer was to the question "is a trapper really good if he doesn't meet the expectations of the land owner? "

Yes if the expectations of the land owner are unrealistic.

Second question was about whether the trapper can influence price by eliminating animals to the point of limiting supply.

In theory yes but not under current regulations and demand. The amount of trappers that exist isn't enough to accomplish this even of they all trapped all day all season long. If there was enough demand to increase the amount of trappers who were looking to make money, maybe but even then the rules would not allow it. Politics would take over b4 numbers got that low.

If only demand changes, that drives price. The shortage or excess of supply is only driven by the variable demand as supply is constant.

Should a trapper who only wants prime fur and doesn't commit to predator control having exclusive rights?

That is up to the land owner. But an owner who doesn't offer exclusivity may find himself with a shortage of trappers. Likewise, a trapper who does share may end up with no land to trap.


----------



## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

WinkyJ said:


> I agree that there is no real entitlement, but an entitlement to exclusive trapping use is the attitude that comes across when I hear that one trapper is telling another not to trap due to some "ethics" that takes the pressure off the yotes. I'd rather they divvied up territory within my boundaries than let the pressure drop.


How would there be less pressure having two trappers running around your property than only one? Twice as much commotion in the woods and make those tricky yotes harder to catch.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

MIfishslayer91 said:


> How would there be less pressure having two trappers running around your property than only one?


That doesn't make sense. Two trappers would keep the pressure up, assuming only one is waiting for the stars to align to his liking or whatever.



> Twice as much commotion in the woods and make those tricky yotes harder to catch.


Twice as much commotion in the woods will make those yotes more likely to den elsewhere. The problem is with one trapper thinking he's got a lock on the property for the entire year and other trappers agreeing with him, and then he doesn't keep the pressure up. That does the land owner no good.


----------



## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

Exactly what I just said. The more trappers on your land means higher pressure. And having another trapper around probably won't make them den elsewhere, they're just going to get smarter and learn there way around a trap.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

MIfishslayer91 said:


> having another trapper around probably won't make them den elsewhere,


Maybe one won't and maybe one will. Enough commotion around their potential denning areas will alienate them. Trappers are one potential source of that commotion, except when they're at home reading tea leaves or mouse entrails.



> they're just going to get smarter and learn there way around a trap.


That doesn't make sense.


----------



## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

An I'm not sure why you want the animals on your land under alot of pressure. Whenever I hunt or trap a piece of land that's been under alot of hunting pressure I usually don't see squat, the animals are spooky and skiddish, and just aren't traveling enough.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

WinkyJ said:


> That doesn't make sense.


Coyotes are well adept at preserving their hide, call it smart or chicken, it doesn't really matter. Educated coyotes are exponentially so.


----------



## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> Coyotes are well adept at preserving their hide, call it smart or chicken, it doesn't really matter. Educated coyotes are exponentially so.


I didn't think it was that hard to understand? But then again he don't sound like he wen knows what he's talkin about


----------



## ratherboutside (Mar 19, 2010)

MIfishslayer91 said:


> I didn't think it was that hard to understand? But then again he don't sound like he wen knows what he's talkin about


You guys are arguing different points. 

I beleive WinkyJ is saying he doesn't care if the coyotes get caught as long as they leave. If you pressure them enough they will move to another location but it would take alot.

I believe you are saying: the more trappers the less likely your are to cat h the coyote. Also correct.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

The big question that I have now is, if WinkyJ is such a knowledgeable and adept trapper, why does he even consider anyone else trapping his property?


----------



## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> The big question that I have now is, if WinkyJ is such a knowledgeable and adept trapper, why does he even consider anyone else trapping his property?


He chases Bigfoots, simply doesn't have time to deal with petty canines


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

MIfishslayer91 said:


> An I'm not sure why you want the animals on your land under alot of pressure. Whenever I hunt or trap a piece of land that's been under alot of hunting pressure I usually don't see squat, the animals are spooky and skiddish, and just aren't traveling enough.


When the predators stop showing up on trail cams, the turkey and deer hunting improves. You want me to believe that the predators are simply avoiding traps. Apparently, they are avoiding eating the prey species, too. I'm good with that. :lol:


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> Coyotes are well adept at preserving their hide, call it smart or chicken, it doesn't really matter. Educated coyotes are exponentially so.


I like it when they are so well educated that they relocate to state land. :lol:


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> The big question that I have now is, if WinkyJ is such a knowledgeable and adept trapper, why does he even consider anyone else trapping his property?


Because it's difficult for me personally to keep the pressure up just before and through denning season.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

ratherboutside said:


> I beleive WinkyJ is saying he doesn't care if the coyotes get caught as long as they leave. If you pressure them enough they will move to another location but it would take alot.
> 
> I believe you are saying: the more trappers the less likely your are to cat h the coyote. Also correct.


Yep. But it doesn't take all that much pressure, just more than I can personally manage at a key time of the year. Of course, it's just easier for all these armchair trappers to assume that I don't know what I'm talking about than it is for them to commit to predator control.

Daily visits to check traps from the end of deer season to the beginning of turkey season are a problem, and I can't set kill traps for yotes. I can spend 2 consecutive nights in a row there sometimes and that's fine for catching *****.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

WinkyJ said:


> I like it when they are so well educated that they relocate to state land. :lol:


If that's what you wish to believe. Not much will keep them out at night, they know when they're safe.

If we are all armchair trappers, please tell us how many coyotes you've personally caught?


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

WinkyJ said:


> Because it's difficult for me personally to keep the pressure up just before and through denning season.


Wait a minute. You can't commit the time but you expect a trapper to do it 365?
You do deliver the. :lol:


----------



## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

WinkyJ said:


> I don't need you, because you won't commit to coyote removal.
> I'll give other trappers permission to trap, but it won't be exclusive if they won't commit to predator control, because sometimes getting the job done right means doing it myself.


I'll say this again. *YOU NEED TO HIRE AN ADC PROFESSIONAL* who has the knowledge and ability to deal with your coyote problem to YOUR satisfaction. Your arrogant position that YOU can use YOUR permission to exert CONTROL over any hobby/recreational trappers who ask for your almighty permission to trap on YOUR domain is what most people consider BULLYING. It is obnoxious, offensive, pompous, unethical, inconsiderate, selfish, and yes....it is your RIGHT to be all of the above.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> If that's what you wish to believe. Not much will keep them out at night, they know when they're safe.


They don't seem to be very good at killing turkeys at night, but my trail cams work at night, and when I keep the pressure up, they don't show up on them. When I don't keep the pressure up, they do. So I have evidence for what I believe.



> If we are all armchair trappers,


What would you call trappers who don't have traps on properties they have permission to trap, while they're lecturing other trappers (who want to be trapping that property) about "ethics"?



> please tell us how many coyotes you've personally caught?


I haven't personally caught any, but they haven't visited while I've tried trapping them. No tracks in the snow. Pressure has a way of causing that. I've shot two while they were doing or about to do damage.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> Wait a minute. You can't commit the time but you expect a trapper to do it 365?
> You do deliver the. :lol:


I never said anything about 365. I can keep the pressure up for much of the year. Making up stuff so you can disagree with me is about the level of honesty I expect from you. If a trapper wants to trap my property, that's worth something. Agreed?


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

DFJISH said:


> I'll say this again. *YOU NEED TO HIRE AN ADC PROFESSIONAL* who has the knowledge and ability to deal with your coyote problem to YOUR satisfaction. Your arrogant position that YOU can use YOUR permission to exert CONTROL over any hobby/recreational trappers who ask for your almighty permission to trap on YOUR domain is what most people consider BULLYING. It is obnoxious, offensive, pompous, unethical, inconsiderate, selfish, and yes....it is your RIGHT to be all of the above.


You don't see it as "arrogance" and "bullying" when one trapper tells another trapper, "Go away, I was here first. I don't care whether you have the land owner's permission. Your 'ethics' are inferior to mine."? 
You don't find any of that "obnoxious, offensive, pompous, unethical, inconsiderate, or selfish"?


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

WinkyJ said:


> I never said anything about 365. I can keep the pressure up for much of the year. Making up stuff so you can disagree with me is about the level of honesty I expect from you. If a trapper wants to trap my property, that's worth something. Agreed?


You did talk about "year round" under a scofflaw excuse of "about to do damage".


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> You did talk about "year round" under a scofflaw excuse of "about to do damage".


:lol::lol::lol:

I said that trappers can trap year round, not that I would want them on my land year round.

If not "armchair trappers", what would you call trappers who don't have traps on properties they have permission to trap, while they're lecturing other trappers (who want to be trapping that property) about "ethics"?


----------



## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

WinkyJ said:


> You don't see it as "arrogance" and "bullying" when one trapper tells another trapper, "Go away, I was here first. I don't care whether you have the land owner's permission. Your 'ethics' are inferior to mine."?


You don't see it as arrogance and bullying that a landowner would use his power of permission to exert control over what and for how long a trapper traps on his land? My question relates directly to that which you have already posted. Your questions are fabricated from unreality and sound like mean spirited attempts to invalidate and ridicule the mutually respectful relationships between trappers and landowners. There is a high road between people on the same ethical plane. You are welcome to be a part of it when you get off of your throne.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

DFJISH said:


> You don't see it as arrogance and bullying that a landowner would use his power of permission to exert control over what and for how long a trapper traps on his land?


Can I get an answer to my question? I see a double standard. I chimed in here with a landowner perspective because the subject of "ethics" between trappers came up and it seemed the "ethics" ignored the land owner's perspective.



> My question relates directly to that which you have already posted. Your questions are fabricated from unreality and sound like mean spirited attempts to invalidate and ridicule the mutually respectful relationships between trappers and landowners.


Perhaps you should reread the thread, paying particular attention to the relationships between trappers.



> There is a high road between people on the same ethical plane. You are welcome to be a part of it when you get off of your throne.


High road. :lol:

Confirmation bias much?


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

casscityalum said:


> Just an FYI there is crp and crep fields. Both look same but have different rules etc.










Seldom said:


> :lol:Here I thought he added a key!:lol: Thanks for the enlightenment because I hadn't heard of it orin a property owner mentioned I took it for CRP.
> 
> I'm only concerned about the fact that Mr & Mrs coyote call it their "winter food pantry" so when I'm driving down the road eyeballing coyote killing properties anything with tall, thick grasses in the winter never fails to catch my eye as a "coyote killing field".


X2! 

I am enjoying the read right now of the education about the difference in the two. Pretty cool, a glimmer of sunshine did come through the clouds for me in this thread.


----------



## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

I am not a trapper. I have always been very edntertained reading the trapping threads because I find the sport very interesting and I admire those who are very successful in the sport. My thinking in this thread is do you want coyotes thinned or chased off. Trappers IMO don't want to chase coyotes away to neighboring properties but they want to pursue and catch the animals. How does high pressure help you when they den on a neighboring property with no trapping and have a litter of pups that are unpressured? Do you think that helps you, the neighbor, or the wildlife they prey on? If I had a trapper on my property and I wanted him to take coyotes I would want it as undisturbed as possible to allow the trapper to be successful. Thats a win/win relationship. You can't trap yotes if they arent there. Just my take on it as a non-trapper.

Ganzer


----------



## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

WinkyJ said:


> Can I get an answer to my question? I see a double standard. I chimed in here with a landowner perspective because the subject of "ethics" between trappers came up and it seemed the "ethics" ignored the land owner's perspective.


 Will you get an answer to a question YOU fabricated from unreality and structured to invalidate and ridicule the mutually respectful relationships between trappers and landowners? Not from me, but you might try waving that kind of bait in front of someone else.  Your shortsighted perspective is so far removed from the traditional arrangements between ethical trappers and landowners that is little more than simply inflammatory on this trapping forum.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

Originally Posted by *WinkyJ*  
_Can I get an answer to my question? I see a double standard. I chimed in here with a landowner perspective because the subject of "ethics" between trappers came up and it seemed the "ethics" ignored the land owner's perspective._



DFJISH said:


> Some babble about traditional relationships and "ethics".


Times have changed. Tradition isn't keeping the numbers of predators in check. "Ethics" that ignore the need of the landowner for predator control are just self serving employment of a double standard.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

MERGANZER said:


> I am not a trapper. I have always been very edntertained reading the trapping threads because I find the sport very interesting and I admire those who are very successful in the sport. My thinking in this thread is do you want coyotes thinned or chased off.


Both. Dead is better, but hunting elsewhere works.



> Trappers IMO don't want to chase coyotes away to neighboring properties but they want to pursue and catch the animals.


Fur farming is not a use that I want my land put to.



> How does high pressure help you when they den on a neighboring property with no trapping and have a litter of pups that are unpressured?


They need to pressured wherever they hunt. They need to learn what territories aren't worth the risk.



> Do you think that helps you, the neighbor, or the wildlife they prey on?


The neighbor is free to implement his own predator control plan.



> If I had a trapper on my property and I wanted him to take coyotes I would want it as undisturbed as possible to allow the trapper to be successful. Thats a win/win relationship.


If they're trapping on surrounding properties, it will pressure the coyotes onto my property, which also happens to have good denning habitat and good hunting habitat (for the coyotes' needs). So a trapper who doesn't help me keep the pressure up is something that has to be compensated for. Another trapper is an option, but not if he's going to respect some "ethics" that leaves my land unpressured.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

The crux of your problem Wink, is that you don't know. You don't know what it takes to put coyotes in traps. Pressure is not condusive to that, it may chase them off for a little while but they'll still breed. Young coyotes disperse so there'll always be more moving in. You don't know that to begin to make a dent in the population, you need to take 75% of the coyotes in a large area for five years in order to start to make a dent in the population.
You've made up your mind what you want but it may not be what you need. Do some research and you may begin to understand.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> The crux of your problem Wink, is that you don't know. You don't know what it takes to put coyotes in traps. Pressure is not condusive to that, it may chase them off for a little while but they'll still breed. Young coyotes disperse so there'll always be more moving in. You don't know that to begin to make a dent in the population, you need to take 75% of the coyotes in a large area for five years in order to start to make a dent in the population.
> You've made up your mind what you want but it may not be what you need. Do some research and you may begin to understand.


Repeatedly pretending that I don't know anything about coyotes makes for tiresome reading. The number one requirement for putting coyotes in traps is having traps out there for them to step in. Like I said, I hope they relocate to public land, so public land trappers can trap them, because the private land trappers aren't getting the job done. The trail cams and rebounding prey species populations when pressure is high are showing me that pressure works. Your excuses are just excuses.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Nah, what's tiresome is explaining something to someone that believes they already know, especially when they aren't getting the results that they would like.


----------



## Seaarkshooter (Nov 5, 2009)

Pressure has a factual negative effect over small areas under 100 square miles for both coyotes and wolves unless the pressure is effectively sustained for at least five years. Both species are able to fluctuate their pup litter size from 3 to repeated yearly recorded highs of 16 pups. That is why in coyote populations, one small parcel used as a safe haven can set back control efforts in the larger area so effectively. Also, unlike wolves, coyotes do not sustain the pack order where only the alpha male and female breed and disallow other family/pack members from doing the same. It has been often recorded that siblings and parents will have pups reared within close proximity that wolf populations normally would not allow. Unfortunately, Winky, I have to agree with Freepop in much of what he has posted.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

Seaarkshooter said:


> Unfortunately, Winky, I have to agree with Freepop in much of what he has posted.


As long as you realize that you're both disagreeing with what the trail cams and rebounding populations of prey species show. They can't be relied on to tell the whole truth, but they don't lie.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

As long as you realize that what Searkshooter is telling you is based on years and years of research done by the Federal Government and numerous institutions of higher learning.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> As long as you realize that what Searkshooter is telling you is based on years and years of research done by the Federal Government and numerous institutions of higher learning.


Do you trust everything the federal government tells you? How about the DNR? How about the grant dependent scientists in these institutions of higher learning? Are you really that gullible, or just that eager to believe in this "ethics" that keeps trappers from competing with each other for available private land at the land owner's expense?


----------



## Pickford (Feb 28, 2011)

How many traps per acre do you mandate WinkyJ?


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

WinkyJ said:


> Do you trust everything the federal government tells you? How about the DNR? How about the grant dependent scientists in these institutions of higher learning? Are you really that gullible, or just that eager to believe in this "ethics" that keeps trappers from competing with each other for available private land at the land owner's expense?


Instead of doing all that research and spending all that money, they could've asked you :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

WinkyJ said:


> Do you trust everything the federal government tells you? How about the DNR? How about the grant dependent scientists in these institutions of higher learning? Are you really that gullible, or just that eager to believe in this "ethics" that keeps trappers from competing with each other for available private land at the land owner's expense?


I retract my previous recommendation that you hire an ADC professional to "exert predator control" on your estate. It's now obvious that you could benefit from hiring a physcholgical counselor.


----------



## ratherboutside (Mar 19, 2010)

I have a question. It may be possible but I don't see how. How does one exert enough pressure on the coyotes to drive them from the property but the deer and turkeys stay?


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

ratherboutside said:


> I have a question. It may be possible but I don't see how. How does one exert enough pressure on the coyotes to drive them from the property but the deer and turkeys stay?


You have to wear the special hat


----------



## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

FREEPOP said:


> Nah, what's tiresome is explaining something to someone that believes they already know, especially when they aren't getting the results that they would like.


Maybe he needs to target the non vegetarian yotes and let the vegetarians live. Heck if you can cull younger bucks without brow tines to increase your chances at a mature bucks it worth a shot right?


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

wild bill said:


> Maybe he needs to target the non vegetarian yotes and let the vegetarians live. Heck if you can cull younger bucks without brow tines to increase your chances at a mature bucks it worth a shot right?


Oh, he started that one too  

I'm seeing a trend.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

Pickford said:


> How many traps per acre do you mandate WinkyJ?


It's not the quantity that matters, it's the duration. If there are only traps on the property for 15 days out of the year. That's not likely to alienate or catch many coyotes.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

ratherboutside said:


> I have a question. It may be possible but I don't see how. How does one exert enough pressure on the coyotes to drive them from the property but the deer and turkeys stay?


Deer and turkeys don't seem to be alienated by the same things that alienate coyotes. They readily get used to routine mid-day visits by people. Since they aren't being targeted by traps, they don't associate these visits with the threat of traps. They aren't attracted to the smell of lures and baits and don't learn to be wary of them. Female coyotes avoid denning and raising their litters where they feel insecure. Daily visits and lure scents seem to make them feel insecure.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Again, mostly false statements.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> Again, mostly false statements.


What won't you say to justify clinging to those "ethics"? :lol:


----------



## wild bill (Apr 20, 2001)

FREEPOP said:


> Oh, he started that one too
> 
> I'm seeing a trend.


me too. man I feel like a fool. if I only knew what winky did I wouldn't have wasted so much time over the years.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

wild bill said:


> me too. man I feel like a fool. if I only knew what winky did I wouldn't have wasted so much time over the years.


Amen Bill. All the research and work, we coukda took the WinkyJ quick course and know it all in a day.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

WinkyJ said:


> What won't you say to justify clinging to those "ethics"? :lol:


This has nothing to do with ethics, it has everything to do with the truth.


----------



## DFJISH (Mar 30, 2009)

If Mike(Seldom) is still reading this thread I'll apologize to him for neglecting his good advice.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> This has nothing to do with ethics, it has everything to do with the truth.


I agree. It has nothing to with real ethics and everything to do with cutting competing trappers out so the selfish "ethical" trapper can keep fur farming on other people's lands. :lol:


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Sure, cause farming fur pays for gas.


----------



## magnumhntr (Aug 18, 2003)

I cannot believe you guys are still arguing with this delusional individual... :lol:

-Chris


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Just a little entertainment.
Wish we could get him to perform his comedy act at a convention.


----------



## WinkyJ (Jan 31, 2013)

FREEPOP said:


> Just a little entertainment.
> Wish we could get him to perform his comedy act at a convention.


A fur farmer's convention or a land owner's convention? Land owners might not like the idea that you just take a few young stupid easy ones each year and let the land cool off before denning season. It doesn't help them see more turkeys and deer. Of course, if they're farmers, they might appreciate the extra deer and turkey kill that poor predator control enables.


----------

