# Don't shoot that spike!!



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Some have already gone over most of these reasons of why a spike is a spike, but I thought it would be a great topic in itself.

Drought: 2 years ago in TX the drought was so bad that 67% of all yearlings were spikes. Traditional management tactices of spike harvest could have resulted in the slaughter of the majority of an entire age class!

Late Birth

Severe Winter: Prior to birth or during first year.

Poor Condition of Mother

Poor Habitat: The average yearling in the U.P. has 3 points-does 1 point less indicate a poor buck?

Social Stress: Deer anywhere, even in farm country with great amounts of food, start to experience health declines at 35-40 deer per square mile(per John Ozoga). Declines in body weight, fawn production, lactation rates, and antler development are evident.

Agressive Siblings

Weather During Infant Stages

Last and Least: Genetics

Just a note, professional, educated, experienced, paid, game managers do not cull deer until sometimes hundreds of observations and not until 3.5 to 4.5 years of age, so who are we to do otherwise?

Some spikes trully are inferior. Many times they may only score 130 in their prime, instead of 170. Are we that picky that 130 isn't good enough? In a professionally managed, controlled property maybe, but in general hunting situations?

Leave the spikes alone! You may very well be shooting your kid's next years 8-point!


----------



## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Please someone explain to me why it is such a bad thing to take spikes. They taste good, it is *LEGAL* , ect.


----------



## The Mutt (Jan 6, 2002)

> Are we that picky that 130 isn't good enough?


Are we that picky that a nice fat 4-point isn't good enough???

What about kids or older hunters???

To me any deer is a trophy. I don't need big antlers to tell me that.


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

First off, you can't eat those little spikes(even if you boil them). Here in the U.P. the average spike might be 100#'s field dressed, with about 30#'s of de-boned meat-maybe 35#'s at most. Most of our mature does up here will go 140-160+ and yeild closer to 50 to 60#'s of meat. If you are trully a meat hunter, than quantity should matter greatly. 

Shoot a doe instead!

Secondly, those yearling bucks are the 2nd dumbest deer in the woods behind a button buck. Where is the challenge? 

Third, we have a shortage of bucks, and a terrible buck age structure, so given all of the doe permits that are available, why would someone choose to shoot a shortage deer instead of surplus deer?


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Also, we aren't talking about what is a "trophy", but what is appropriate to harvest in an effective management strategy that is in balance with habitat and the overall health of the herd.

As far as trophies go, when I was 16 and shot my first deer, a button buck, I was absolutely thrilled! But I was also raised in a family of non-hunters and never entered into discussions of effective harvest strategies.

Getting back to the original topic though, many people use the "genitically inferior" label as a feeble attempt at an excuse to shoot a buck so they can tell their buddies they shot a "buck". I've even seen many people refer to a button buck as a spike, just because it sounds better. I guess what I'm trying to say is no one should be ashamed at shooting a nice fat doe, with usually much more meat than a little yearling.


----------



## BEAGLEMAN (Oct 16, 2000)

Here we go again! Same crap different smell.
Opinions,Opinions,Opinions. 
No one should be ashamed of any deer they take while hunting legally.
You have your opinion of what people should harvest and it's just that. An opinion!
Tom


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

When each one of us pulls a trigger, lets go of the string, or casts a rod for that matter, we are making a managment decision. Too often we fall into a "Kill, Kill, Kill" mentality with total disregard to the effect our harvest methods or decisions impact the areas we hunt.

Each harvest decision carries with it consequences, some not as great as others. If you have all the facts of what those proven consequences may be, reasearch them, weigh the consequences, and then make a conscious harvest decision based on the wellfare of the herd and habitat, then you are part of the management process. 

Certainly not everyone will agree on management strategies, but as long as the thought process takes place concerning the responbility of our decisions, that's all we can ask for.

To shoot a spike simply because it is "inferior" is wrong. To shoot a spike because it was the only day you had to hunt all year, you were a first time hunter, or because you have weighed all the facts, evidence, and reasearch in an unbiased approach, and have formed a harvest strategy that you believe includes effective spike harvest, then so be it! That's the way it should work. 

I'm not telling anybody what is a trophy or a valuable deer, I'm only trying to get the facts out there so that people can make an educated decision in the process of participating in the management process.

These "opinions" aren't mine, they are a collection of researched facts mostly from the likes of John Ozoga and other proven research scientists from across the country. 

Get the facts, research them, and make a decision. Not everyone will agree, so what! But at least the effort of stewardship takes place.


----------



## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Mutt, well said! I was trying to say that but could not say it without coming off snobbish. 

You wait for your HUGE 8 point. I will continue hunting and shooting what I have a tag for and what is legal!


----------



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

Fight the good fight Jeff. One big problem is that many hunters don`t care about managing the resource. They only want to shoot a deer with antlers so they can impress the guys at work on Monday morning.


----------



## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

I hate getting involved with this QDM forum because of all the controversy. But the statement was you couldn't eat young spikes Oh yes you can. And they are very tasty. I don't shoot spikes or nubs on purpose, however have accidentally shot a small nub thinking it was an average doe. That was my mistake and I accepted flack for it. I ground the 60 lbs. of meat into burger except for the back straps. It was a very good tasting deer. 
Now for some personal background. I grew up in Manistique on Indian Lake. I am a middle-aged person. Some say I'm old. The general consensus of most middle age men from the U.P is "you shoot a doe you kill three deer." It's going to be hard to change that philosophy. I am sure the younger group, moving into that area will take the QDM idea with them. But QDM won't happen over night. I have hunted the same area for 15 years now and am able to see the change in the ratio of bucks to does. I kill accordingly. Believe it or not due to the high volume of does taken in the past 5 years we actually have more bucks than does. Because of this I have started a personal slot limit for myself. I will only take a 2-year-old buck or any buck over 5 years old. However if they roam onto the hunt club property next door they will be lucky to make it to their first birthday. Its going to be hard to convince a first time hunter or a person that is hunting the U.P.for the first time not to take a deer just because it's a trophy to them. That's why QDM has to be taught and not forced. Any issue an outsider tries to force on a person will be rejected. That's just the way men are. If they don't agree with you 100% you can't force it down their throat. After a couple years of hunting the area they will begin to see the ratio of bucks to does and hopefully realize they have the ability and capability to decide the future of their hunt.


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Stelmon~ My advise.....Spend a little more time reading and less time writing. This QDM forum is loaded with info on both sides of this issue, I am a big supporter of QDM, but all the info is here and you make your own decision. 

Neal


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

thanks, neal! took the words right out of my mouth.

don't worry, jeff. there are plenty more people who fail to realize or accept the fact that decisions made in the field have long reaching consequences.

if we go back and look at the original post (that has gotten way off track), it was simply to point out a few factors attributed to producing spike bucks, not opinions but research.

nobody is stopping anyone from shooting anything or passing judgement, just sharing a little knowledge.

however, i whole heartedly agree with jeff's statement,


> To shoot a spike simply because it is "inferior" is wrong


----------



## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Neal, 
I have done some reading on QDM. I don't know quite as much as you, but when someone is telling me not to shoot a spike that I can legally harvest, I don't except that. If someone shoots and 8 point on state land, fine, that's cool. If they shoot a button bucks on state land, that is cool to. But if they see a spike on my roof that I legally killed and they tell me how wrong that was, then I will be very mad. 

Like I said in this thread and millions of other thread, if I have a license for the deer, it is legal, I am going to kill it fi I feel like it. Now if I am on someone land, and they want 8 point or better, I will kill an 8 point or better. 

Untill the DNR makes it illgal to kill a button buck or a spike, I will continue shooting the button bucks or spikes. Heck, if they do that, why don't they make the deer I shot last year illagal also. If there going to save the button bucks, save the young does also.

I think QDM is great also, but it should not be a opinion shoving contest and what is wrong and what is right. That is what it looks like to me from northjeff post and most of jaime7177 post. Now untill they let me shoot what is legal instead of shoving something down my throat, I am for the killing and not the opinons throat shoving!


----------



## The Mutt (Jan 6, 2002)

> a collection of researched facts mostly from the likes of John Ozoga and other proven research scientists from across the country


...and yet Lenord Lee Rue III, one of the country's leading whitetail biologists states that a buck that is a spike will always be inferior genetically to the 4s, 6s, etc. in his age group. I guess even biologists have differing opinions.

Personally I don't shoot smaller bucks simply because they are easier to kill and I'd rather leave them for my nephews, my niece, my buddy's 68 year old dad or my wife. I haven't killed a buck in 3 years now but the does fear me. The difference is IT'S MY CHOICE!!!


----------



## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

SFK, that is what I was getting at. I know how great a small doe taste Believe me, there no intimidating me one bit. Just egging me on



> _Originally posted by The Mutt _
> *
> 
> ...and yet Lenord Lee Rue III, one of the country's leading whitetail biologists states that a buck that is a spike will always be inferior genetically to the 4s, 6s, etc. in his age group. I guess even biologists have differing opinions.
> ...


Another great post Mutt

I am done here


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Stelmon~ Next time we get together, lets take some time to talk about this.....this QDM discussion has gotten unruley it's hard to make heads or tails of a lot of it.

SFK~ Liberal?....you're the one who shoots a deer because the GOVERNMENT says it's OK.......I use my independent knowledge to make my decisions.

Neal


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Clay, I'm not sure what this discussion has to do with fly dunkers, but I do have one question for Stelmon. He stated that if he was told by a private landowner that he could only shoot an 8pt or bigger that he would abide by those rules. My question to Stelmon is why would you hunt on that private property at all if he could just go down the street and get a button buck on state land if he so desired?


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

nice one, neal! LOL!

stelmon, you do realize by harvesting that button buck you remove an antlered buck from the population next year and many years after that, you take away the chance of that buck maturing, competing for dominance, etc. you throw away any chance of that buck from making an impact before he even has a chance. at the same time you could have harvested a doe, did your part to improve the buck to doe ratio, created more food for that button to get through the winter in good shape and producing a healthier 1.5 year old buck the following season.

the choice is yours to make, but an educated choice is far better than a knee jerk reaction.


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Clay.....all BS aside, I would be happy to shoot a young doe for you this Fall........you would get great, tender meat, so you would be happy......and I might save the life of a immature buck, so I would be happy....it's a win win....What do you think.....Deal?

Neal


----------



## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Steve _
> *Clay, I'm not sure what this discussion has to do with fly dunkers, but I do have one question for Stelmon. He stated that if he was told by a private landowner that he could only shoot an 8pt or bigger that he would abide by those rules. My question to Stelmon is why would you hunt on that private property at all if he could just go down the street and get a button buck on state land if he so desired? *


Because I am the guest on that person property and was invited to hunt his land. Private property is also much safer!

You guys are not seeing my point. North jeff is stating that it is morally wrong by shooting a spike. Is it really or just what he says goes? Isn't there any freedon here? If I want to shoot that spike, I should beable to with no one looking down upon me. If, in the next few years I shoot a spike, I can gaurantee that spike will be a huge trophy for me. 

Now, I know this will stump you guys, but I am in favor of harvesting more does to get the doe/buck ratio equal. I am not for someone telling me I have to do it his way or it will make me look like a horrible person.


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

please SFK, don't bother sending me another oh so "scary", threatning PM. i may laugh myself to sleep.


----------



## Mike (Nov 26, 2000)

I dunno', the little one's are much easier to drag out of the woods.   

The problem as I see it, is you QDM folks like to talk down to those who haven't jumped on the bandwagon. That's the impression I get from reading posts like this one. I think you make a lot of valid points, but you undermine yourselves with the way you go about making them. 

More flies with honey, ya' know?

Mike


----------



## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

"Secondly, those yearling bucks are the 2nd dumbest deer in the woods behind a button buck. Where is the challenge? Do I even need to comment on this statement?"

I would say yes, Splitshot. Unless there's something to your comment that I'm not grasping. Everyone I know who has studied deer behavior would concur that a yearling buck is generally markedly less wary than a doe. And therefore harvesting a yearling buck is less challenging than harvesting a doe.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

You know sometimes I just don't get it. These forums are at times PETA's dream. Imagine them reading this and seeing all the petty arguments. It makes me sick! Come on can't you all have a debate without cheap shots? I don't care who was a New York Ranger, a Texas Ranger, or a Ranger in the service, it has nothing to do with this topic. You call each other liberals yet to the non-hunting community I bet most on this thread would be considered right wing. If you don't want to stay on topic without the personal vendettas and lamely hidden threats, find something else to post about. I won't pay a lick of attention to any personal messages about this thread either as there are many who have contibuted to it's degradation.


----------



## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Neal _
> *Leave it up to me to spoil a warm and fuzzy post, but Tony thinks that Waltz way is wrong, because Waltz group in hunting for their self reasons, while Tony's group are hunting for the betterment of the resourse. Both ways are fun to hunt, but only one puts the deer first.
> 
> Neal *


Neal, thats pretty good, I find it interesting you know my friends better than I do. Let me try to clear my warm and fuzzy post up a bit.

Tony, Walt and I all hunt together. Walts group is hunting for FUN, they love to hunt, Im in Walts group, and so is Tony. Its all about the lay of the land, not about shooting at CHALLENGING game, what the heck is that all about ? If you want challenging, try hunting from a chair, because Walt is.

Take 450 acres of the finest farmland you can imagine, add a couple deer food plots and throw in a management program. Next follow the rules, patrol the heck out of your land, and watch the deer grow.

Next take 25 acres surrounded by 6 or 7 other 25-acre parcels and wrap it all up next to some federal land. No rules, no patrol (for the most part), its all hard woods and a food plot is a pile of corn or carrots. Next, waive at the group of 10 hunters on state land as you drive by there deer camp with all your small bucks on their pole after opening day. We tried the deer management thing there also, Ive got news for youIT WONT WORK, unless some major changes, and laws are in-forced though out the state. Its not as simple as Tonys 450 acres.

QDM has its place, is it the entire state of Michigan ?? My guess is probably not. My dad is 60 years old this year, he still climbs a tree every Oct 1st on the same state parcel near Baldwin with his best friend who is 70, every year. These guys are by far the finest HUNTERS Ive ever meet and theyve never and I mean never once thought about QDM. What I can tell you is that they call it as they see it, a shot a Michigan whitetail with a bow is something special, the track is special, and so is the feast. 

At 69 years old last year my dads friend shot a 3pt from 15 feet up with a 45 pound compound with no sights (never any sights). Fred and my dad, both colorblind tracked that dear 150 yards though the woods near dark and recovered it. I wouldnt ever insult my dad or Fred and ask them, was that challenging..


----------



## Robert W. McCoy Jr (Jan 18, 2002)

Fully knowing that I volunteered    

SFK your cracking me up


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by mechanical head _
> *Neal, thats pretty good, I find it interesting you know my friends better than I do. Let me try to clear my warm and fuzzy post up a bit.*


Mechanical head~ Sorry I thought your post was hypothetical. I stand by my point, but I didn't mean to offend you.

Neal


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Jamie~ In all fairness, SFK's post refering to liberals is still there located on the first page of this thread.

Neal


----------



## BEAGLEMAN (Oct 16, 2000)

I still say the biggest problem with QDM is not QDM it is with some of it's messengers.
Tom


----------



## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

Neal, no nead to apologize I'm not offened. Hypothetical, thats a good word, but what if was? It's easy for your fingers to do the talking, these forums allow that to happen, talk is cheap.

You stand by your point and thats fine I respect that. Im not sure what point Im standing behind. The managed land I hunt is set up for one thing, and that is Big Bucks. If you want to call it QDM thats fine, we call it trophy management.


----------



## Coldwater Charters (Sep 17, 2000)

QDM is in the eye of the beholder or the folks that owns the land. I have a neighbor that refuses to shoot Does as most of the other neighbors do. We have a ton of Deer around during gun season. They will however take a lesser buck. They figure having all these Does around will bring in all the surrounding bucks for them to choose from, it very well may be true. When I see one of them take a 6 point, I say jeeze a 150 pound Doe would taste better, but there is some kind of pride factor there I think, that won't allow themselves to take a Doe. The buck to Doe ratio in this Area is way out of wack. I would say it is at least 10 to 1, if not allot more then that. It seems silly to me to take a small buck when all these Does are around on this private property, but that is how they do it. I say my 2 cents and am on my way. By the way these are not new hunters but seasoned veterans to the hunt.

QDM is in the eye of the beholder, the facts of the Bioligist seem to make no difference. In my way of thinking at least here in Michigan with such a diverse hunting fraternity is this. If you want a massive Buck, do your home work, scouting ETC. You'll never get everyone to agree on anything especialy on what a trophy buck is. If you truely do all the neccessary work and get that 150 class or bigger buck then your efforts will be rewarded. Now if for arguements sake, the DNR regulated a 4 on one side rule for all bucks, then the older bucks would probably be easeier to kill because of lack of pressure on them almost like the Does we have now. 

So my question is this. Would a 150 class buck taken with no QDM in the area be a better trophy then a 150 class buck with QDM in the area???

I personally would like to see bigger bucks in greater numbers, a few years ago I would do what I needed to do to make it happen, now If I see one that is great if not, that is one less deer I have to drag out of the woods, butcher and make into jerky and one more for someone else to take. Did I say jerky,,,, I need to get more serious about getting a deer this year

Last year was the first year since I was 14 I didn't take a deer, I'm 43 now. I only hunted for deer 3 times. It didn't bother me one bit, Tyler took a nice 6 point, his first deer ever and to be honest was much more patient then I was when I was 14. After making the deer into jerky for the most part, I wished I made a bigger effort on taking a deer. Was Tylers deer a Trophy deer???? You bet it was!!!

QDM is a great philosphy in my opinion, but will it make the same 150 class deer taken as good a trophy as the one that is taken when no QDM exists, I think not....


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by BEAGLEMAN _
> *Here we go again! Same crap different smell.
> Opinions,Opinions,Opinions. *


Beagleman~ You are quite the diplomat for your side... 

Neal


----------



## BEAGLEMAN (Oct 16, 2000)

Neal,
Take a look at my past posts and see when I,ve been out of line.
To be quite honest I am tired of some of the attitudes of some QDM folk's and have decided if I don't agree I am going to speak up.
I have to agree my choice of words could have been better but I think my point was made.
Tom


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by BEAGLEMAN _
> *To be quite honest I am tired of some of the attitudes of some QDM folk's and have decided if I don't agree I am going to speak up.*



C'mon Tom, There are attitudes on both sides, I think that is our biggest problem......During these debates many of us found some middle ground.....I think we should run with those concepts rather keep the same battle of attitudes.

BTW~ Are you the same guy, formally from the Caro Area?

Neal


----------



## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

I understand this post may not comply directly with the means of the topic but please allow me to express my personal views on what I have read thus far......

Hunting isn't a way of life for me its my greatest enjoyment. QDM isn't a way of life, it's a concern hunters have about the deer's way of life. Most of us will agree that we want to maintain a healthy deer heard. The problem that I hear is, if someone abides by the law in their hunt, that person may still be ridiculed because they didn't comply with someone else's ethics. The QDM ethical way is being presented to the hunter as a definite process that must be followed to preserve hunting in America, period. In fact it is presented so strongly that I would be very concerned about posting a photo of a spike that a family member or myself took on this web page ever again. In fact after all the ridicule that took place on the buck pole last year about someone's photos that weren't laid out "Politically Correct" I may not ever post a photo again. 

When someone gets their first, second or third deer they like to show off a little. That's always been part of the great things hunters do. But some of the QDM supporters press their issues so hard on this forum that a person who wish's to show off what is a trophy to them may have second thought from now on. I guess what QDM supporters want is for a person to feel some guilt so they will start abiding by the QDM way of life. This can impact a young hunter very hard. If they can't take pride in the harvest, what is the point to the hunt. In fact they may give up hunting altogether do to the harassment they have to take about the yearling, spike, or button they just killed. 

To put a reversal on the issue, and not that I still believe in this but it's the way I was taught. To shoot a doe, meant you killed three deer. You only shot a four point if you were in real need of food, a six was an average hunt. To shoot a 10 showed a lot of pride and a 12 or a 16 proved you were amongst the best.
The does were left for the young kids or ladies. 
O.K. times have changed. Because of the increase in hunting pressure there has been a decline in the 10 point and above category. We are learning we need to change.

I won't call a person who kills a doe a little girl, nor will I call a person who takes a spike, nub our yearling an unethical hunter. Ethics are things that are taught. They are left up to that person to accept or reject. The same thing with QDM. It needs to be presented as an idea. Something that can be accepted by the individual if they desire.
Something that will become part of the persons ethics. Let's not forget that in this society if its legal it's allowed to become ethical.

I will perform my own type of QDM because I want a healthy heard. I don't like to see any animal suffer. But if the style of the hunt gives me the option of choice I will choose according to the style of the hunt. But how often does the hunt give you a choice? If I choose a spike, button, doe, or a 16 point, the choice is mine to make.
Should the group I associate with ridicule me because of my choice, I will no longer discuss that topic with that group, and in some cases I will not associate with that group. In reality ethical and legal should not collide but work hand in hand. I hope for the sake of the hunters in America that disassociation over ethics doesn't take place. 

Oct.1


----------



## BEAGLEMAN (Oct 16, 2000)

Neal,
I have no problem at all discussing QDM and it's merits. It's when the other junk starts that I start to have a problem. I have found my middle ground with QDM, I think it has some very good points and others I don't agree with. I also understand I may be wrong in some of my way of thinking,but I will never be swayed by someone telling me or someone else that they should be ashamed of themselves for taking a BB or Forkhorn.
If the arguements stuck with facts and not opinions maybe more people would see it the QDM way.
No I've never lived in Caro.
Tom


----------



## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Wow, some great points have been made. 

Like others have said, QDM should be discussed but other should respect others opinions on it rather is being a BB, a spike or an 8 point.I don't think this should be a contest of who is right and who is wrong. 



I end this post of mine with this quote from Beagleman.
It will always be true in my books no matter what! 



> I also understand I may be wrong in some of my way of thinking,but I will never be swayed by someone telling me or someone else that they should be ashamed of themselves for taking a BB or Forkhorn.


----------



## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

QUOTE from"SFK"

" Jack, you ignored my questions on another thread asking you about your hunting experience. Kinda of rude I thought but you did owe me one despite my apology and your acceptance of it. Kinda tells me what we are as humans huh! I asked the questions very nicely I thought and I can rephrase them if I didn't communicate effectively. Let me know, I know there is a language barrier. Show me this data that you are referring to regarding birth weight. Better yet tell us how birth weight based on temperature data has a single thing to do with quality deer management? Can we now lobby to God on temperature control to benefit the deer herd in Michigan? Our meteorologists can't even predict the weather within 24 hours so how can we plan a fawns birth? Maybe global warming is a real concern? Tell me what the temperature is to maximize the area under the curve for deer weight and I will pray hard for it every day from tonight until the day I die. In addition, I don't brag about horns. I have never, ever had a deer head stuffed and personally I think it's like notching a weapon for shooting an enemy of your country or an old ally gone bad.
You want me to go QDM? Prove it works and dont cry when I keep asking you to!"
___________

To SFK and to ALL :

There effectively is a language barrier and answering all your questions would amount to put down the main steps of 53 years of my life, plus to write about all aspects of hunting in France ... This is way beyond what I am willing to do ... and even more as I have never seen here anybody required to do so !!!
I advise you to go over the posts I made in this Forum from the beginning, you will find there most of the answers you wish.
Should you happen to have some understanding of French, I wrote a 60 pages booklet about red deer biology, ethology, ecology and present the present "management" which ends by proposals for a real quality management which has nothing to do with a trophy management, just with INDIVIDUAL deer population quality management in each specific range. It has been put on line by about 10 internet sites in France, Switzerland and Belgium : I would gladly give an address to any one interested. 

It is rather incredible that you write "kinda rude" after what you wrote me !!! (Too bad this post was deleted !!!)
I did accept your apology but such out of place partial and biased comments about someone Country are not easy to forget for anyone !!!

Very recently I gave all needed references about a 378 pages book "RED DEER Behavior and Ecology of Two sexes" written by the best British biologists after years of study : get it, you will find the data you are asking for and much more which could, without any doubt, make any one open minded progress towards QDM... The fundamental BASIS of deer management are the same for all deer species, the most significant difference deals here with population dynamics (as a rule hinds give birth to a single calf). 

Remember this thread is (was) about spikes ... so back to them !

The post I sent about the influence of average temperature during the last two months of pregnancy was to attract attention to precise data which, which, with all the others NorthJeff had put forwards, explain why, ouside of any genetics, yearlings weight and antler quality can be highly variable from one year to the next, due to different parameters and even a single one, of which snow cover DURATION is the most significant : this is, among others, why an annual micromanagement should be an absolute necessity.
Early before WW2, Germans preached for an eugenic "Trophy management" to promote crowned antler by priority culling of non-crowned and protection of crowned ones up to 10 years old. Naturally 50% of each exist. 
All the acquired scientific knowledge since that time leads to say that GENETICS biodiversity must be preserved in order to insure the best possible chance of survival of species who will have to adapt to an unknown context to come. 
I do not know for sure about whitetails, but I learned for sure about red deer : general antler shape and top crown or not, depend on a genetic POTENTIAL which will show up IF the herd general well being IS GRANTED. This diversity should not be eradicated. Perhaps a similar situation occurs in whitetails. In any case,
IF THE OPTIMUM DENSITY AND SEX RATIO exist, RARE yearling spikes most likely result from individual biological or social stresses , they are useless costly mouths for their habitat and for the herd and they must be shot by priority (I mean cleanly killed).
IF OPTIMUM DENSITY AND SEX RATIO ARE granted AND if they are part of normal genetics the needed % of them must survive.

On the contrary, IF DENSITY AND SEX RATIO ARE NOT WHAT THEY SHOULD BE, density should be lowered, of course by culling females, and the sex ratio also improved by sparing the needed number of bucks the needed time, including spikes whatever their origin might be, till the population structure is similar to that of a natural population regulated only by large predators. 
This would also give a chance to small weight and poorly antlered yearlings to catch up ... if they are able to do so (which is not the case in red deer).

Average temperature during the last two months prior birth escape QDM influence, but an adequate QDM should certainly take it in consideration ... both antler and harvest possibilities wise : smaller fawns also means lower fawn survival if the following months are not favorable ...
Also you will guess what I think about your ironic comment about lobbying God ... and the like !!! 

2-3 years ago, I fortunately came in contact with a Wisconsin biologist who wrote me he could not understand and accept QDM because QDMers preached just the opposite they were looking for : antler points or antler width restrictions results would necessarily amount mostly to the cull of the "best" younger bucks, hence contribute to maintain a low average age of the buck population and to the loss of the physically fittest.
According to what I have read in this Forum and elsewhere, OUTSIDE of an ADEQUATE micromanagement, if the same rules are applied over your whole State, particularly Up North and Down South, this comment is necessarily true Up North : a rational good QDM necessarily implies a specific QDM over any specific range of a specific population.
The only tenable goals are density well below maximal biological carrying capacity, at least a 1 / 1 sex ratio (more if needed to cope with trophymania), a good population structure by classes of age (enough really mature bucks to do ALL the breeding : according to the red deer model at least one of them for every 5 hinds = around 20 % of each class of age), together with the shooting of any animal physically below average for any reason, does as well as bucks. 


From what I learned about whitetails hunting, I most likely shot way much more deer (roe and red) than you ever have or will.
Over 100 red deer in only my last 5-6 years of hunting : MUCH more females than males (density, sex ratio and pyramid of ages problems here also).
Under continuous pressure of our forest Administration to lower density over a territory of 6 square miles(to 7 red deer by sq.mi.), below what was reasonable in order to avoid penalties , I came to hunt much more than I wished, to kill much more than I thought right, lost all pleasure, and decided to put an end to my predation. Yet my passion for deer kept alive and I used my newly found freetime to broaden my knowledge and do whatever I could for my dear deer !
Not a single of my stag "trophy" is "stuffed" : a FEW of them are right in front of me, in my study, as great quality memories of the circumstances in which they were shot and ... of a quality management.

P.S. I do not "cry" in any meaning of the term : The capital letters above are just there to emphasize some important points, I am not used to shout, do not need any help here and keep my tears for situations which deserve them ! 

Jack.


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

nobody should be ashamed of any deer they harvest, it is their legal right to harvest any deer they have a tag for.

in alot lot of these posts people focus on bits and pieces instead of the entire threads intent. sarcasm,humor and several other interjections are lost through the keyboard and are misinterpreted. nobody was putting anyone down for harvesting any deer. 

the main focus of many QDM supporters frustration is with the seasoned hunter who continues year after year to harvest 1.5 year old bucks. which is also fine, legal, his right, yadda, yadda, but when someone tries to point out reasons why it would be better to let them walk, they are immediately jumped on. if you can't eat the horns and you are hunting for meat, shoot a doe. it's a good bet that 50% of the hunters harvest 90% of the deer.

the original intent was focused on individuals who thought they were doing the resource a favor by removing spike bucks due to their percieved genetic inferiority and was backed up by solid research.

dumb/inexperienced, smart/experienced, potato/potatoe, tomato/tomatoe. by pointing out the well known fact that a 1.5 year old buck is not the sharpest tool in the box in no way demeans or degrades someones "trophy".

my uncles thought it was a sin to shoot a doe and gave me hell for shooting them, didn't stop me. now these same uncles never have an empty freezer.

shooting a buck because you "think" it is inferior in my eyes is wrong.

just because a hunter is just starting or an old-timer is coming to the end of his/her hunting career should not exclude them from making an informed or educated harvest decision.


----------



## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

"The problem that I hear is, if someone abides by the law in their hunt, that person may still be ridiculed because they didn't comply with someone else's ethics."


Oct. 1, you are employing a tactic which logicians refer to as a "straw man" argument, a fallacious line of reasoning. The "straw man" strategy entails falsely stating the position of those with whom one disagrees (creating a "straw man"), and then attacking the false statement.

You state that some are ridiculed for lack of compliance with another's ethics, then went on to associate this riducule with Quality Deer Management advocates. I've read probably every post in the QDM forum for the last two years, and I can recall only one single instance of something which could be loosely described as ridicule being issued toward someone who harvested a yearling buck. If I failed to observe such ridicule, please identify it. Then, for an encore, 


"The QDM ethical way is being presented to the hunter as a definite process that must be followed to preserve hunting in America, period."

This comment is utterly unsupportable in fact, and appears to be an attempt to mislead. At a minimum, a footnote would be helpful, to identify what entity presents QDM as such a definite process essential to preserving hunting in America.


----------



## Guest (Jul 10, 2002)

I always get in these discussions a little too late. I need to start checking in more then once a week, but if I did I would waste too much time.

I have no problem with QDM. I actually believe in its effectiveness at producing a healthier deer heard, especially if you define healthier as bigger racks. I do not mind land owners or hunting clubs placing rules to try to manage their land or trying to convince me to stop shooting spikes, but when I get angry is when the QDM crowd tries to enforce their philosophy on me by creating laws requiring that we can only shoot bucks with more then 4 points on one side. This is what was tried in Sanilac County where I do most of my hunting. This frustrates me. If you want trophy hunting, buy your own land, join a hunting club with a lot of acres, or form an association of surrounding landowners committed to similar goals. Many supporters of QDM are just plain trophy hunters trying to produce trophy opportunities in Michigan, and I struggle with that being forced upon everyone.

I agree spikes are not inferior deer and that there are many reasons that they are spikes. My brother shot a legal spike one year that was a fawn. The spikes neck was swollen for the rut. Hell this guy probably would have been a monster in just one more year. I for the most part do not take spikes, because I usually do not want to put my tag on such a small deer. I want more meat, but that is my preference.

I heard one argument in these posts that bothered me, and for anyone who has read my prior post they would have heard me say this before, hunting is not a sport. The deer does not have a sporting chance regardless of method of hunting used. Hunting is a method of gathering food and controlling the population of an animal. I hate to think that any animal was killed for the sport of it. So I always get frustrated when hunters try to demean one method of hunting to prove there method is better, by saying the other hunters are not being very sporting about it.


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Stelmon~ Five years of hard hunting without hardly seeing anything........Don't you see a management problem there?....That is a shame.

#2 I did a little searching, well with the amount you post, a lot of searching........Please review the thread posted by you when you got your first deer there were many people who patted you on the back and were happy for you on your accomplishment, including, Pro QDM people. The link to that thread is posted below, but I would like to point out one of them by JAMIE7117:

"just be happy you were successful, you made a clean kill and did your part as a hunter. you should be proud, your more of a hunter than the slobs you had to put up with. hang your head high and tell all those so-called "hunters" who called you baby killer to kiss your a**."


Neal

Sorry, lost the link for that thread, but if you search your posts it comes up on page 68 or 69


----------



## stelmon (Sep 21, 2000)

Neal, that was my point. You guys made me relize I killed a trophy deer! I was putting anyone down and I have that thread saved.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Here's the thread... http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11095

Thank goodness we can go back into the archives  Most people in both threads were very supportive of you, including some very vocal QDM supporters.


----------



## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

I wish to re-clarify something I said earlier. I made reference that QDM was responsible for what sounds like ridicule to hunters that take spikes, buttons or nubs. Sorry it's not QDM that is responsible for that. It's a few individuals that say they support QDM that can become demeaning and sound as though they are ridiculing an individual for shooting a young deer. I did not mean to state that this is a QDM philosophy.


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

hunt, you made some good points in your post, honest and to the point. 

wouldn't you agree, if a particular sex is over-represented in a population it would/should also make up a larger portion of the mortality/harvest rates? and if a particular sex was under-represented it would make up a significantly smaller portion?

wouldn't you also agree that it was better for a buck to make it closer maturity, thus giving it 3,4,5,6 years of mating, competeing for dominance, etc. before it was harvested. killed at a year and a half, it would barely make a mark, maybe passing on it's genes for one year, maybe not and never effecting the male hierarchy.


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Oct.1 _
> *I wish to re-clarify something I said earlier. I made reference that QDM was responsible for what sounds like ridicule to hunters that take spikes, buttons or nubs. Sorry it's not QDM that is responsible for that. It's a few individuals that say they support QDM that can become demeaning and sound as though they are ridiculing an individual for shooting a young deer. I did not mean to state that this is a QDM philosophy. *


Again, I believe even your last statement is misleading. Some hunters have been ragging on other hunters for shooting young deer forever........I have heard this since I was a kid, many years before I ever heard of QDM. So In all fairness t .....There are a few individuals who don't support QDM that can become demeaning and sound as though they are ridiculing an individual for shooting a young deer.

Neal


----------



## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

Neal,
I am not an English grammar major, so I'll try this again. When I come to this QDM section, I hear those that say they support QDM making statements like its wrong to shoot deer under two and a half years old. I rightfully disagree. It's not wrong to shoot any deer of any size. It may be impractical for the population of a particular area to remove a certain size or age deer, but not wrong. I believe I understand what QDM is trying to get across, but it needs to be stated that it is only a suggested practice in order to develop a heard of greater quality than what exists within certain areas. Than you need to define quality. The QDM web page defines this very well. What I understand from their web page, is that a quality deer heard is not one that has massive rack size, but instead a heard that can properly sustain itself within the area in which it lives. So therefor size doesn't matter unless you want to have large deer. It's a fact that a 3-year-old doe is larger than a yearling. The same holds true for bucks. But my understanding of QDM is that it is not looking for large antlered deer but a population of deer that can sustain a quality life in the area in which it lives. I don't believe I misunderstood this meaning. The question, what size has to do with it has gone around here before and I won't touch on that again. But the question was asked what's wrong with shooting spikes? To that I maintain an answer of Nothing wrong.


----------



## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Oct 1~ I am honestly not trying to split hairs here, but I think there is a big difference, at least an important preception in words that are used, especially on these boards. There is a big difference between the word "demeaning" and the word "wrong" I have not seen anyone be demeaning, some believe it is Wrong "scientifically" to shoot young bucks, but most of what I have seen is those encouraging or suggesting the principles of QDM and why it would be beneficial not to shoot them. 

Respectfully,

Neal


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Nothing is wrong with shooting a spike, in the legal sense. The QDMA believes that a balanced buck age structure is very important to the overall health of the herd-at least balanced to the point of protecting the majority of yearling bucks (roughly 80%). 

So you are right, shooting a spike is not legally wrong, but it is contrary to the promotion of a healthy herd and is the opposite of one of the founding principles of QDM, "Protection of Yearling Bucks".

I do think it's wrong to shoot a spike for these reasons:

1. Inferiorty
2. To brag about shooting a "buck"
3. Peer pressure
4. Because the DNR says it is OK.

There are probably alot more selfish reason it would be wrong, just as there are some other reasons it is probably OK, like first time hunters, and youth to name a couple.

It wouldn't be legally wrong for me to clean out all of the rabbits in one of my "honey holes" by my house, it actually wouldn't be too difficult to do over the course of the winter, but at some point I have to take some personal responsibility in that I know for a fact I would be doing great harm to the population. If I was a new hunter, or inexperienced I might not know better, but I'm not so it's up to me to use the tools the DNR has given me to manage my hunting grounds in a responsible manner.


----------



## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Jamie,

To answer a couple of your questions,

"wouldn't you agree, if a particular sex is over-represented in a population it would/should also make up a larger portion of the mortality/harvest rates?"

As the population currently exists, the female harvest should far exceed the male harvest if we ever hope to achieve a 50:50 sex ratio. All mammals are born 50:50, it is the way their population was designed. Hunting is the ONLY factor that determines anything other than 50:50 sex ratio's in Michigan deer. 
Nature intended mammal populations to be 50:50...it is one of those traits that determine whether a species is considered a mammal. If this ratio wasn't OPTIMALLY beneficial to the species, evolution would not have stuck with this ratio for 9 million years. 
All mammals are born 50:50. This ratio ensures species survival. There is not a single mammal species on the planet that is not born 50:50. It is normal, natural, healthy, mother nature approved.
It is designed this way to ensure random breeding, genetic diversity, disease resistance, proper social structure, etc...
(I sincerely hope BradBlitz reads and understands the above paragraphs)
I would greatly support a doe only season for 1 year. 
In my opinion, lowering the population, and equalling the sex ratio's is our biggest defence against TB and CWD. 

"wouldn't you also agree that it was better for a buck to make it closer maturity, thus giving it 3,4,5,6 years of mating, competeing for dominance, etc. before it was harvested?"

Yes, I would agree with this as well.
In my biology opinion, I believe a harvested button buck, and a harvested 1.5 year old buck equally damage the herd and sex ratio. Both deer consumed habitat, and both deer contributed nothing to the herd. The 1.5 yr old may have bred a few doe, but certainly not the amount of doe he was put on earth to breed.
If he was to be a monster buck, he would have bred many females in his life...if he was destined to be a puny buck, he would have bred few.
Either way, with a few years of maturity under their belt, this heirarchy would have been used to benefit of the herd as a whole.
A whitetailed deer was designed to have a lifespan of 7-12 years. A whitetailed deer needs to live this long to accomplish the tasks above, to benefit the herd as a whole. If removing 75% of the 1.5 yearold males was beneficial to the population, evolution would have given male deer a 1.5 year old life span...not 7-12 years. 

Anyway, In my hunter opinon...there is no better trophy than a spike horn for a new hunter (any age). There is also no better trophy than a six point I have busted my butt to kill in a big woods U.P. bow camp.
I am also very fortunate to have ample time(not enough) to spend almost everyday of bowseason in the field. I am also extremely fortunate to have decent property to hunt. I don't feel like I am passing up the buck of a decade when I let a sixer walk. I know I will see another soon.
But it's not this way for many many hunters.
Many hunters only take a week vacation, and gun hunt state land up north. For many of these guys they may see only one sixer in a decade....how can I tell these guys not to shoot?
What about the fella's who really could use the meat for their family, that don't get drawn for a doe permit? It is hard to get a doe permit for state land in many counties....
As for the guys that don't need the meat, have killed 100 bucks in their life, won't kill doe, and still stack lil bucks like chordwood....well, I guess I just need to understand that not everybody cares about our deer. Some dont want to. But if it's legal...who am I to say they do it wrong?
We are going to need them if we need to clear a bunch of deer if CWD gets here....I dont want to alienate them now.

From a pure biological standpoint, QDM is absolutely the way to go to achieve a mother nature approved deer herd.

From a hunters standpoint, I can see where many of our participants wouldn't like it. I can easily see why many don't like antler restrictions.

My vote is for 1 doe only season.
Ample harvest opportunities, meat for everyone, major benefit to the herd, huge shot of disease resistance, habitat regeneration, and the traditional hunting the next few years would be outstanding!
A year is so short...it goes by in the blink of an eye.

Hunt


----------



## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

O.K. I try demeaning. 
Amongst us are young hunters, first time hunters, and those that have not harvested an ample amount of small bucks to satisfy their desire. I am sure that a person that has harvested they're first deer (no matter what their age) are quite proud of doing so. In fact I am sure a father or husband feels proud of the first, second or even third deer their spouse or child harvests. With that in mind I am sure that there is a pride of just plane putting meat on the table.
For the seasoned hunter to come out and bluntly say its wrong to remove a deer from the population because it hasn't' grown up yet must take the pride away from the person who has taken a small deer. This may discourage another from hunting for the first or second time. When I hear the word wrong, what I hear is you shouldn't have or should not have done that. To me that makes it demeaning.

Demeaning: Humiliating, Corrupting, Shameful, and Unbecoming. 
Wrong: Improper, Mistaken, incorrect.

Yes I am splitting hares. But to tell a person they are doing something wrong because its not up to someone else's standards is what can cause humiliation in another persons objectives, thus becomeing demeaning to that person.


----------



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

I would agree with a doe only season Huntnut. So would "Deer and Deer Hunting" editor Daniel Schmidt in this month`s editorial.

What would really make a big difference is if young hunters were taught that there are more important aspects to deer hunting than killing a deer.


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

is it me or am i the only one missing something here?

i don't recall anyone saying it was wrong (ethically,morally or legally) to shoot a spike. if i recall correctly, the statement was made to dispell the misconception that shooting a spike on the basis that it was "genetically inferior" or that hunters are doing the resource a favor by harvesting spikes.

as i have said before the bulk of frustration lies with the seasoned hunters who "still stack lil bucks like chordwood". even though legal, they say one thing and do another. the meat hunters who don't care about horns yet their buck pole is full of male deer.


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Oct 1,

I'm sorry if you feel I'm demeaning, that's not my intention. I was very proud of my dad when he shot his first deer just a few years ago, a 5-point yearling. I was equally proud when he shot his next, a 4-point after passing up a much smaller spike. At this point though he falls in line with the 8-point rule on the property like everyone else. 

I'd much rather see a kid or new hunter shoot a few button bucks then not hunt at all. But the point is that the majority of MI could stand to harvest a few more does, and someone should recognize the importance of this, and act appropriatly. Here in the U.P. we shoot 2 bucks for every doe, whereas you in the lower shoot 2 does for every buck. Now granted, we do have areas in the U.P. where doe harvest is not appropriate, but we still have a ways to go.

Again, I go back to the fact that we as hunters are indeed managers of our great resources and instead of thinking of ourselves as someone who pulls the trigger, we need to more accurately think of ourselves of making a management decision when we pull the trigger. As Bob S. said, there are more important aspects to the hunt than the actual kill. I'm just hoping those aspects will enter someone's head when they are peering through a scope or sight and are about to make a management decision.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Split I think your idea of taking a doe first and then getting a buck permit is a very good one indeed. It would take some years of this to get the herd back into a decent natural ratio IMHO.


----------



## Oct.1 (Jun 29, 2000)

NorthJeff,
No apology necessary. Not from any one. Believe me, I agree in QDM more that it sounds. It just needs to be 
done in a controlled fashion. For many years the DNR has been told they need to evaluate each area of the state according to the populace of the deer heard before issuing a license or permit. We all know they haven't been able to do that due to the lack of staffing. I agree that the hunter needs to take the challenge upon them selves to put some sort of control to what should be harvested where and when. What I disagree with is the way these issues are presented on this web page. You can't tell a person it is not proper to do something that they have the right to do. What I have read on the QDM web page sounds like they are doing it the correct way. They are informing the hunters of the problem, presenting them with valid information, and asking them to take the challenge to implement some sort of control them selves. This is good. This topic is so hot right now, QDM members need to be careful as to how they respond to us idiots.
By referring someone go to the QDM web page, it presents him or her with the facts instead of someone's interpretation. This may stop a lot of debates over something like a word. I for one like hearing both sides, so a debate is good. But I take offence when I hear some one make a suggestion that it's not right it abide by the law. There already has been a group that have gotten off their lazy keyboards and done something about it. Some have joined QDM and QDM has already been presented to certain areas for implication. I am sure those of us who haven't decided to fully agree with the QDM philosophy do agree to a point about a controlled harvest. I have learned much here just by reading. I don't disagree. I just need to prove it to myself. For now I am going to just read again.


----------



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Oct. 1,

Just to look at some more facts concerning QDM, check out my article with the title at this site of "Yes QDM can work in the UP". That's not an interpretation, but the facts of QDM and what it stands for. The article was edited by Mark Thomas, a national QDMA board member and Private habitat/game consultant, and John Ozoga, a whitetail research biologists and author who lives in Munising.

The only reason I even wrote that was to try and get the facts out there about QDM to the greatly misinformed hunting public of the U.P. As you can probably see, I am very passionate about QDM, deer management, and habitat management. I had several hundred acres I hunted in the thumb area for 13 years but left because of increased trespassing, numerous hunters, a deer herd of no buck age structure, and poor sex ratios. I see many less deer here in the U.P., but in 4 years and over 200 times on my stands I have only seen 1 other hunter. 

I have seen QDM work on my own property and in other states. I have also seen QDM work in areas where people didn't even realize they were practicing QDM! I am fortunate to be able to hunt and enjoy other states and if I only had to hunt in MI I would probably move. MI is one of the most mis-managed states in the country and it takes nothing more than a trip to a couple of other states to see this. My saving grace for my home state is Ed Spinnazola, Boyde Wiltse and the guys who started QDM in MI. If it weren't for them and their continued educational efforts, MI would truly be in the "dark ages" of deer management.

You will see that I try nothing less than being 100% accurate with my deliverance of the QDM message and I do this by frequent contacts straight from the sources. I know I might come across as "demeaning" occasionally, but it really is not my intention. I am just very excited about QDM, what it does for the health of the deer, the health of the habitat, and the improvements that do come from proper management. I'm not just excited because someone told me to be, but because I have seen and been a part of the entire process of QDM, and not only is it extremely rewarding, but I works everywhere in the country!

I hope we can have some good, constructive discussions in the future.


----------



## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

This thread brought forwards a most interesting topic : new hunters, young or not, that is to say a very important part of the unescapable human factor in the mid or long term.

To explain what will follow, I must tell you succinctly my own story :

- I have always been attracted by reading, even before I was a teen.
- For what could only be a re-emergence coming from who knows where, I became deeply attracted by books dealing with outdoors, fishing and hunting.
- When I was close to be 11, by pure chance, I met a hunter who offered me to become a beater (beats with hounds are a long tradition here). I grasped avidly this opportunity.
- From there on, I felt more and more an urge to search, to chase and to capture wild animals.
- At that time, as now, one had to be 16 to get a licence to hunt, and it was delivered without any theorical or any practical exam.
- I worked as a waiter during all my summer holidays to get the money to buy a single barrel, one shot, shotgun and the hunting licence.
- Has I had not the money to afford to pay for a full hunting contribution to acquire full hunting right, very kindly the group of hunters for which I had become a beater, allowed me to shoot deer.
- At that time I had not a single notion of management : I just thought about searching, pursuing and capturing any deer I could.
- I will always remember my first one who happened to be a rather young roe deer buck !!! That day, "The King was not my cousin" !!! 
- 12 years later, I came to learn and became conscious about a necessary management : it became readily obvious to me a sound management of the resource was a must.
Of course this changed totally my approach of hunting : my intinctive "knee-jerk", "buck fever" behavior became dominated by a QDM one. Together with my personal change in hunting behavior, I also felt an urge to bring to others the newly acquired knowledge which had made me become a responsible hunter, a true wildlife manager.

53 years after entering the hunting world, all the experience I have acquired leads me to tell you :

- For several different reasons, the large majority of new hunters, of any age, are much more permeable to the principles of a good wildlife management, than supposed experienced ones, many of which are out of repair : The environment changes much faster than many individuals can adapt. 

- This is why I feel, any hunting licence should only be granted after a serious exam whose goal should be to make sure the future hunter of any age has full mastery of the biology, ethology, ecology of the species he proposes himself to hunt, as well as that of security problems and that of what is weapon can accomplish, or not, in his own hands. 
Should this condition be fulfilled, I am deeply convinced that a large majority of these new hunters would become, BY THEMSELVES, fine widlife managers, even if the law is too permissive and will stay so for different questionable reasons.

- This being said, there will always be some "knee-jerk" behavior, mostly about young bucks ... Yet most often, a well educated new hunter will be his OWN efficient critic and in the majority of cases he will not do it again.
That much would be gained and progressively, a much needed QDM will prevail !!!

Jack.


----------



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by NorthJeff _
> *"Yes QDM can work in the UP". That's not an interpretation, but the facts of QDM and what it stands for. *


"The bottom line is this: QDM works wherever it`s given a fair chance."

Charles J. Alsheimer
Deer and Deer Hunting, September 2002 issue.


----------



## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Fine post once again, Jack.

I've noticed myself that there appears to be a direct correlation with a hunter's level of interest in the biology of his quarry and other animals, habitat management/ecology, and that hunter's sense of his responsibility as a steward of natural resources. Such hunters have a thirst for ever-more knowledge about such things, and they experience an ever-expanding enrichment of their outdoor experiences as a result.

Likewise, hunters less interested in such things tend to be more consumptive-oriented, with little thought to their role in resources management.

I am hopeful that a new hunting/conservation culture is indeed developing, and see evidence of it almost daily. 

A quote you kindly shared with us has become one of my favorites:

- "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that are familiar with it. " (Max Planck)


----------



## Mike (Nov 26, 2000)

Yup, no sense in trying to educate anyone, just put 'em down and wait for them to die.


----------



## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

To Farmlegend :

The quote which ended your above post is one of the best rewards I got for all the efforts I made to try to be intelligible in this Forum.

Thanks to Internet amongst others, distances, borders are more and more fading away and I strongly believe that, fortunately for our Planet, and all its forms of Life, this trend is non-reversible : this is why I became involved here.

I would like to share two other quotes (I read a lot...) :

- "The wise man adapts to the World, only fools try to adapt the World to them ... this is why all progresses are the works of fools". 
- "Honour is like an inaccessible island, once you have left it, you cannot go back".

I do not recall who wrote these, but I could search for the authors.


To Mike :

Very close to be 65 years old, my future is clearly behind me and more so hunting wise as I stopped hunting 16 years ago because I could not accept to go on hunting the way our laws imposed for purely very questionable economical reasons (herbivorous mammals eat, and always too much, according to intensive sylviculture ...) .
Hence, what I wrote is clearly unselfish and my goal is only to try to help perpetuate Nature and Wildlife for the future generations everywhere. ("Quality deer populations are proofs of the quality of human environment as a whole").

Jack.


----------



## Mike (Nov 26, 2000)

Belbriette,

Never thought of you as being selfish. My point was, I've read more than a few posts with QDM proponents presenting themselves as a better class of human being. I don't see how QDM will ever gain more acceptance with that attitude. Just because one person believes in QDM, does not mean that person cares more about the resource than anyone else. That's the only point I was trying to make. 

See ya' in a week, the walleyes are calling!

Mike


----------



## treeman (Mar 18, 2002)

I think all fish and game management regulations should be established based on a concensus of a bunch of righteous, self proclaimed expert do-gooders. Are we on a slippery slope?
It has been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I shoot the first good sized deer that I see every year in order to put venison in my freezer. I don't care if it is a buck or a doe or what size the antlers are. I have never had a poor quality hunting experience or a poor quality meal. The deer I have shot were all very health specimens.

I purchase the appropriate licenses that will allow me to do so.
Once I have venison in the freezer I go back to fishing. Hopefully the fees that I paid for the unused tags goes to professional game management. ( I do wish we could get the politics out of the DNR so they could just do their job.)

I don't tell you how you should hunt. Please don't tell me how I should until you have proper credentials to do so. Lets leave game management up to the professionals.

Finally let me as I have done before say it is not my intention to offend anyone here. If you wish to practice what you perceive as quality deer management then go for it. I will not profess to tell you that my way is better than yours. Please can everyone just agree on one thing-- I won't tell you how you should live your life and please don't tell me how I should live mine. I like having choices. Be careful we don't give away our freedoms one bite at a time. I appreciate a voice. Thanks for your ear.


----------



## Blackeagle (Jun 8, 2002)

Where I live in the SE corner of MI. there are seldom any or few spikes seen in a season. I havn't seen a 1.5 yr. spike, in my home area, in so long I'm not sure how many years it's been. Now that being true, those of a age class where the average yearling is carrying 6 points and some eights the spike is a loser. So I shoot spikes, yet let the basket 6-8 and even the little forkys walk. I've even been thinking of starting to shoot the forks, for the same reasons. Just in case you are wondering I didn't shoot any bucks last fall, just doe. But the season before I took the best buck of my life.

In a area like the UP where the winters are much harsher and food of lower quality and less plentifull then you have many more spikes. In the UP then it makes sense to let them walk. My point is that there is no perfect solution to all areas. In my home area there is massive amounts of high grade food available to the deer, cover is the limiting factor here. In the UP just the oposite is true for most of the UP, lots of cover, limits on numbers comes from limited food sources. The best management plan in the one won't work well in the other.

My personal rules or choices are mine. I don't push them on others or run them down as killers or any other labels. Unless they ask to hunt on our lands it isn't my biz what their personal codes/rules are, as long as they are within the laws. One problem with letting them walk is that the guys next door DON'T, flustrating. This happens to me and I suspect Jeff as well. And many guys won't put up with that flustration. They revert to "if it's brown......", and some go forth to preach the gospel of QDM and condeming those who stay "heritics"..... Each has to reach a balance within him/her self. Then let others do the same and not let it get to you that they have chosen a path that tends to differ from or even obstruct yours. Bows, shotguns, crossbows, long or short range rifles........bait, food plots, mineral sites, cover managements, coursing with dogs, QDM, trophy management and others the choices in diffeant areas and methods are many. Live and let live, while still going your own way.


----------



## H2OFowl'er (Oct 26, 2001)

It took a while but I finally got through the whole thread. First off, people need to stop the bashing and stick to the matter at hand. This is not the place to be accusing others or making negative statements towards others, I have read many post that really make me mad, but that last thing Im going to do is try to lash out at him or her. I just bite my tongue (fingers I guess in this case) and read on..

Now, on to the matter at hand. The biggest problem I see with QDM is that a lot of people dont agree that the deer herd needs to be managed differently than it has. SFK asked to show him that QDM works then he would believe. Well SFK, I ask, what do you mean by works? Do you agree that the herd in Michigan is not as healthy as it could be? I dont mean that there are deer that are walking around with disease, but what I do mean is that the buck to doe ratio is out of whack; the age structure of bucks is out of whack. Some people would agree that this is true, but dont see what is wrong with that. These people will not agree with QDM. They must first agree that something different has to be done to better manage the deer herd.

Next, the DNR does not set the policies or laws, they simply enforce them. It is the NRC that sets policy and laws concerning the management of deer. I like most people here think that deer management should be left up to the professionals that are being paid to do just that, i.e. the biologist etc. Well let me throw this at you. Most would agree that there are many political agendas that are being thrown around when it comes to herd management. For example, many think that the farmers and the insurance companies have a lot to do with the large amount of antlerless deer permits that are issued. Well I think that deep inside the biologist know that QDM is better for the deer herd, but is afraid to make this management idea into law, for fear of what deer hunters will think? This is my opinion. Look at what happened to the individual in PA that came in and just forced QDM in to practice. He received a lot of negative feed back, but I bet in 4-5 years those people will be thinking that it was a good idea.

Very few, if any pro-QDMers here have ever said, or will ever say that young/first time hunters, or the older hunters should feel guilty about shooting a young buck. I would have to say that the opposite is true, most agree that they should be able to harvest a smaller buck. And the younger hunters should also be educated as to the affects of shooting young deer has on the herd as a whole. Education is so important when it comes to QDM. The sad part is that these forums start out to be educational, the end up being shoving matches.

Many are against QDM because it is a change, and most dont like change. Others are against QDM because they dont feel that there is anything wrong with the herd the way it is, there is not much I or anyone else can do to make these people think that QDM is a better way. Others I sense are against QDM simply because a few pro QDMer's came across gruff or insensitive to others. If these people would put aside these feelings and look at what QDM is with an open mind, I really find it hard to believe that these people could say that QDM is a bad thing...


----------



## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

Belbriette
Tracker




Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Gerardmer, France
Posts: 128
ONLINE 

I already posted this in the "QDM Forum" thread. 


In another active thread "Don't shoot that spike" H2OFOWL'ER introduced a most good and interesting post.

Of course, for practical reasons, I am not directly concerned in this MI QDM Forum, that is to say wildlife management in MI cannot have any impact on my Life, except the fact that I strongly believe a good wildlife perpetuation is a World wide problem which will become more and more a most serious one : better be concerned about it before it is too late, or almost too late, for the generations to come !!!

Since I entered this Forum, and if I suppose I do not meet any problems reading the posts (except slang), together with H2OFOWL'ER, I think my practical detachment, synonymous of the absence of any emotional selfish involvement, allows me to say :

- I have never seen any QDMers write " You MUST do this".
- I have read them about the way Nature intended things to be, I have read them putting forwards facts and research data, not easily available to many, in order to educate their fellow hunters and to drive them to make their own minds + in order to contribute to a change in what I feel like being obsolete hunting regulations.
In this respect, the process of new law making being what it is, in retrospect, it seems evident to me , new laws mostly result of problems whose solutions have been long overdued : "Necessity becomes Law" : hence in good democracy, nothing wrong in trying to speed up the process !
- Of course, very personal attacks from opponents have sometimes driven to regrettable answers : most of the times, if not every time, the initial unfair attack was not that of a QDMer.

- As "answers" QDMers mostly got :

- "Don't tell me what I should do" , "I let you live your Life, let me live mine ",
- "Show me it works".

To this attitude which is almost as frequent in my Country than in yours, I will answer :

- When one is confronted with a number of largely irrefutable arguments backing a thesis, it is certainly not a democratic behavior, to displace the problem on any other grounds to try to disqualify somebody who had the best objective and reasonable reasons to write what he did.
- Mother Nature has shown us from immemorial times the way Nature should be ... Who is anyone to put this in question ???
- For many different reasons, I praise Liberty more than anything else, however "LIBERTY" does not mean licentiouness against the unwritten Laws of Nature or of Laws of Morality, on the contrary LIBERTY goes along with a maximum RESPONSIBILITY for the Present and for the FUTURE .

Jack. 



Report this post to a moderator | IP:


----------



## Belbriette (Aug 12, 2000)

I have been very sorry three of my last posts closed three different threads and came to think about it : going back to my posts I became aware that, due to the fact I had been personally and severely attacked on highly questionable grounds, I had been unfair :
In this Forum appear not only convinced QDMers and blind, highly biased opponents, but also hunters keenly interested in learning about their preys and in the QDM approach : to them I have to express my most sincere regrets and beg for their understanding.
Their interest in this Forum proves they are highly motivated hunters and free Men conscious the great Liberty they enjoy does not go without a similar great Responsibility : Rights and Duties are inseparable, most likely more so here than elsewhere !!!

Jack.


----------



## Beagle (Dec 27, 2001)

Hi Neal,

No I am still around. I only lurk this site once in a while. Nice to see I made enough of an impression that you still remember me 

Huntnut,

Really great to read your posts again. I thought you fell off the face of the earth. I think you know that I am one of the people that you did get through to (a little  ). Looks like maybe I rubbed off on you a little as well. Heck I am already planning on not shooting a small buck this year. Which guarentee's I will see a ton. My partner and I invested in some property this summer. I might even talk to the nieghbors about voluntary point restrictions.

You make some real excellent points in your posts. One of which is the social aspects of it. I am convinced that QDM would be good for the deer herd. Just not convinced MPR's is the only way to go at it. I think the efforts of the the QDMA in the voluntary arena will pay off more in the long run. I posted a story on the Bowsite some time back about a guy I work with and how his voluntary approach has encompassed about 10 square miles in 3-4 years. I think it is a real great story, maybe if I can dig it out I will post it here.

Anyways, it has been a while since I read anything on the QDM board and it was good to read your post. This one was so long and repetative that I skipped most of the rest of it to get to the end. Spend most of my extra time reading about CWD and Beagling now. Maybe we can get together for a rabbit hunt or something.

Rob


----------



## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Beagle!

Holy smokes is it good to hear from you again!

I have been wonderin if you were gonna jump in here!

Like you, I have layed off the QDM thing lately. I choose the practice, but I am hesitant to push it. Deer hunting is so close to the heart for many people, it's like discussing a religion. And the debates certainly show it don't they?

I have been focusing most of my research and reading time lately to CWD as well. The aspects of it are devastating, and I don't think it will be possible to contain. 
I am watching Wisconsin launch the largest mass attack possible in todays social climate against CWD. So far, every other containment attempt has been unsuccessful.
Hopefully Wisconsin's attack will show Michigan that it is possible to slow the spread of CWD while keeping the deer hunting heritage intact.

So you're gonna pass up some little guys this year? I wish you the utmost success, and I wish you straight arrows. 

I think we are gonna have a fantastic season!

Your wisdom rubbed off on me some too. 
You made me realize that the sport of deer hunting and the study of deer biology don't always see eye to eye. And whats good for one, may be detrimental for the other.

I don't know what my game plan is this year. Our Gladwin property is looking good. We have seen 5 seperate 1.5 year olds in velvet this summer, and I know of one big guy that made it thru last year.
I hope my little brother gets one of the 1.5 year olds. He took his first deer with a bow last year (mature doe) and now he's itchin for his first set of horns. 
I'll probably be fillin the freezer with doe while he's lookin for his trophy.

I am also goin on a 9 day U.P. bowhunt right along the Wisconsin border....no QDM here, if it's brown, it's down! This is CWD management 

In Fowlerville, I'll probably spend my weekday hunts perched in a tree in that endless quest for the buck of a lifetime. Sooner or later we are bound to cross paths. Thats what I keep tellin myself anyway.

About that rabbit hunt, count me in! It's been a long time since I chased bunnies with a boomstick.
We may have to try your pups on our Gladwin property. Plenty of bunnies, and they haven't been shot at in a few years!

Wow, it's good hearin from ya again. I'm glad you looked in!

Keep in Touch Beagle!

Hunt


----------



## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

This thread started out about shooting spikes. I'd say if shooting the spike is a better management choice than shooting a doe, it is in line with QDM.

Also, I believe everyone one these forums is in FAVOR of QDM. There just seems to be a bit of disagreement with the definitions. <----<<<


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

the definition of QDM is crystal clear, the rest is left to interpretation. 


What is Quality Deer Management?


----------



## Guest (Jul 26, 2002)

> I know of one close friend who hunts the way I do that has made two posts to this forum and is personally disgusted with the response from the hard core proponents (He is very well known here too).


Awwww, Clay, you made me blush.


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

Mississippi State University
Managing white-tailed deer populations:
http://msucares.com/wildfish/deer_population.html

whitetailed deer mortatilty:
http://msucares.com/wildfish/deer_mortality.html

genetics and antlers of whitetailed deer: http://msucares.com/wildfish/deer_age.html

QDM on public lands: http://msucares.com/wildfish/deer_public_land.html

A Deer Management Success Story:
http://msucares.com/wildfish/deer_success.html

University of Tennessee:
QDM: A New Philosophy of Managing Deer: http://www.utextension.utk.edu/pbfiles/PB1643.pdf

Quality Deer Management: http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/arnot/hu...permits/qdm.htm

POPULATION MANAGEMENT OF WHITE-TAILED DEER
http://cnrit.tamu.edu/cgrm/whatzhot...llo/hewitt.html

White-tailed Deer Management in the Texas Hill Country:
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/hillcou...ncing_herds.htm

Deer Management Inadequate:
http://www.winkelman.com/newspapercolumn/deerman.htm

harvest an essential part of managing whitetail deer:
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/wildlife_pubs/harvest.pdf

are whitetail antler characteristics inherited?:
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/wildlif...s_inherited.pdf

impact of human intervention on whitetail deer populations: http://www.3sharks.com/atlas/29.html

http://www.fishandgame.com/features/607trinity.htm

White-Tailed Deer Biology and Population Dynamics:
http://www.arec.umd.edu/policy/Deer.../marchinton.htm

Managing For Age in White-tailed Deer:
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/hillcountry/deer/age.htm


there is plenty of more information out there, if you look hard enough. 



> what is a socially balanced deer herd?


a herd that contains appropriate numbers of all ages classes of both bucks and does so that breeding occurs when it should.

Animal Rights, Animal Welfare, and Deer Hunting


----------



## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

This is just my opinion, I do not profess to be an expert on the Whitetail deer. I am just a guy who has loved deer hunting in all of it's forms since I was a little kid over 40 years ago. To me Deer are Deer, My definition of a healthy herd is one that is self sustaining in high enough numbers to be used as a harvestable resource. In my opinion what differance does it make if it is a Doe, Spike, Button or 10 point. A Deer is a Deer. I love the time spent in preparing for the hunt. I love the traditions and friendship of camp. I love being in the woods. I love to eat venison. To me an antlered buck just means I have a convienant hand hold when dragging out my deer. The word "trophy" is not in my hunting groups lexicon. To us a quality deer hunt is measured in memories not in if it is a male or female deer or how big it's antlers are. I guess I am a proponent of "Quanity Deer Management". I will do what I can to help the resourse maintain good huntable numbers. I do not agree with managing the herd to maxamize the number of large Bucks just for the sake of large Bucks.


----------



## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Randy, sounds like you and your friends get a great deal of enjoyment out of deer hunting and I think most of us would agree with your positive comments. Have a great hunting season!


----------



## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

Well said Randy. But the hope is not completely lost. You see you will soon be too old to hunt, and then youll die, since you cannot be convinced that QDM is the only way, theres a chance we can still educate your kids and grand kids. 

Guys did I say that right ? Is that what that quote intended. Is that the way the real QDMers think. 

My god it sounds like a cultCOOOMMMEE join us, the QDM people, we will educate you on biology and ecology of the game you hunt. If you dont all will be ruined 

It's getting soooooo thick...


----------



## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

I had never considered any kind of deer management, including TDM (traditional deer management) to be a cult. And I think most hunters would agree.

"It's getting soooooo thick..."


----------



## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Thanks, Mechanical Head, for your rational, mature, and well-reasoned contribution to this thread. As I reflect upon your enlightening post, my faith in a bright future for deer management is reinforced.


----------



## mechanical head (Jan 18, 2000)

More info for the debate. Illinois 2001 deer season 99,000 deer harvested.

Illinois sold around 278,000 firearm tags last year.

Each about 1/4 of Michigans totals. 

How does this fit into the mix. Same amount of land, 1/4 of the hunters, 1/4 the harvest. 

Save this thread, I've lost the ball


----------



## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Splitshot, the management technique you spoke of, commonly referred to as a form of an "earn-a-buck" program, undoubtedly has merit. I would be quite supportive of such a system in the area I hunt. I'd love to see it adopted in a demonstration area (like a single DMU, preferable in southern lower MI) for evaluation.

One pitfall of earn-a-buck is hunter acceptance. Of the various strategies surveyed in the Bull/Peyton report, which studied hunter attitudes toward QDM, it was clearly less popular than antler point restrictions, minimum spreads, and the one buck limit.
More hunters "strongly opposed" it than any other of the other methods.


----------



## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Mechanical Head,

With the same land size, and 1/4 of the hunters, I wonder why their deer herd hasn't exploded like ours has with 750,000 hunters workin together.

Could be that their habitat won't support that many deer, or, it could be that their management methods cull the amount of females necessary to maintain 700,000 deer.

I really don't know.

I am an advocate of equalling our ratio's in this state by a massive sweeping doe harvest. Like once every 5 years.

I am also interested at using the females to lower our herd # overall just for disease resistance and habitat regen.

With all this disease, I just do not feel comfortable maintaining over 2 million deer...it's like a powder keg waitin for a match.

Ask me 10 years ago, and I would want 10 million deer in our state.
It's a risky gamble keepin our herd this high.

I think our state needs a big female harvest more than limiting anybodies buck harvest.

I think it would satisfy both camps and all around solve more of our states lopsidedness.

There's no TB runnin around in Illinois 700,000 deer either.

I wonder why it is so different.

Hunt

Oh, and I spent the weekend in 452 and saw a spike horn (thread topic  )


----------



## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Gosh, we're getting a lot of good posts here, so we might as well keep going. My question on the doe numbers is what action the MDNR may take in the future to get the deer numbers reduced in accordance with their deer management objective?

Also, I agree it's a lot easier to manage a deer herd in Illinois, which has much lower hunter numbers.

Wisconsin is very comparable to MI in terms of hunter numbers and seemed to be doing very well their deer herd. That is until CWD showed-up, changing the whole ballgame, as Steve alluded to in an earliern post.


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

i told you so, it usually happens when huntnut shows up.


----------



## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Bwiltse,

I don't think the state can do anything to lower the amount of females.

All they can do is offer permits, and there are many left over every year.

Even with our 750,000 hunters, there is not enough of a female harvest.

I did a poll here once, asking the participants if they shoot does.

90% or so said yes.

Guys, we just need to shoot MORE. And give em away if we can't use the venison!!!

The DNR also redifined minimum acreage for otc doe permits to zero acres. That helps me on the 100 acre block I hunt owned by 4 different relatives!!!!

This year, I could care less about horns on this property. But every single baldie better look up!!!

I know plenty of people who will take a deer after my freezer is full.

If we want to change things, we need to get the permits and use 'em!!!
(make sure your knife is sharp )

Hunt


----------



## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

Geeeeez Jamie.....

I am just bored at work sharpenin broadheads gettin excited about 10/1...wastin some time talkin with you fellas today.

Can you feel it coming???

Thanx for the compliment.

All of the guys here are very passionate about our deer. It is good to see...even when you fellas fight 

Imagine if a PETA person stuck his head in this forum. 

LOL

Hunt


----------



## trapstercarl (Oct 2, 2001)

wisconsin estimated 1.5 million deer
wisconsin 54,314 sq miles

michigan estimated 2.3 million deer
michigan 56,809 sq miles 

seems strange that the two states with the largest deer herd both have disease problems. OVERPOPULATION. carl


----------



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Huntnut _
> *I did a poll here once, asking the participants if they shoot does.
> 
> 90% or so said yes.
> ...


Huntnut, funny you should bring that up. I was thinking about that poll today in relation to some of the QDM treads on here lately. As I see it the question "do you shoot does?" is too broad of a question. Most hunters will say yes I will shoot a doe. The problem with the poll results is under what situations will a hunter shoot a doe. My dad will shoot a doe, but only after Thanksgiving if he hasn`t shot a buck yet. Too many old time hunters like my dad think of a doe permit as a way to salvage the season if they don`t shoot a buck. Six weeks of archery season and the first week of firearm season and then many hunters will start to think about taking a doe. I think that 90% is too high for the number of hunters who go out on October 1 with thier sights set on shooting a doe.


----------



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

i can't wait! i was fletching arrows in between 'puter sessions, my season starts oct. 15, i usually get some fall fishing in, while i wait for the temp.'s to cool off. i can see those kings strippin' my drag already!

i can smell it, fall is in the air.

one more thing, *screw PETA!* 

when i comes right down to it, we will defend each others right to hunt, no matter what our disagreements may be.


----------



## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

Put some info out to neighboring landowners about forming a QDM cooperative recently (in 452 by the way) and the response so far have been very positive, just got a couple more replies through a survey back in the mail today. I never said anything about antler points in my original proposal, just the importance of protecting young bucks and harvesting an adequate # of doe was a great starting point to get the age/sex structure in balance with the available habitat. 

Everyone so far in the survey said their camps harvest doe, I havent been able to quantify this very good yet as far as numbers, but Ill try as I talk to more folks.

Getting back to the original topic (spikes), I called one of the respondents this evening and told him what we planned for our side of the fence for this season: six point or better, take a few more doe as we gauge the deer levels this fall, and bend the antler rules for a young hunter or first timer if they want, but encourage otherwise. 

The neighbor said he wasnt sure about that, cause hes never seen a six pointer and they always shoot spikes because they are runts. After a little information sharing on age structure and the all the reasons a spike may be a spike, etc., he basically said they will not shoot spikes anymore (maybe see a six next year!).

In a about a two weeks we have managed to get about 1,100 acres interested in participating in a cooperative. With the mailings Im sending out (more to go) hope to cover an area of 6,000. Im not demanding anything from the area camps, just serving as a central communication center I guess. As far as the APRs go, so far we are between no spikes to 6 pt or better.

Another interesting thing is in the survey I sent out, the question was asked if food plots were planted to attract wildlife, and if more information on food plots / habitat management would be welcome. For those that I spoke with who havent seen many deer over the years, they were not food plot guys. When I told them about what we have seen and harvested over the past few years they were definitely more interested in habitat information, couldnt believe that there was such a difference in apparent deer density and size of bucks over such a short distance.

Im looking forward to a great season, Hope everyone else enjoys the same!


----------



## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Benelli _
> *The neighbor said he wasnt sure about that, cause hes never seen a six pointer and they always shoot spikes because they are runts. *


I don`t even know what to say to that kind of thinking.


----------



## Randy Kidd (Apr 21, 2001)

According to my poll on another thread the majority of hunters on this site hunt private land, That is in contrast with the actual numbers. The majority of hunters in this state hunt public land. My point in this is, Public land hunters are limited to one doe tag each this year, There are no left overs. And the one tag is not guaranteed. It is in lottery form. While private land hunters can buy unlimited tags. How do we suppose to reduce the ratio of females in the general herd populations with this system in place. So for this year I can shoot two bucks and maybe a doe. Unless I use my combination tag for a doe while bow hunting. But that isn't going to help reduce the number of doe in this state. We just don't have enough bow hunters to do that. Now I am just average Joe Sixpack I don't own land so I hunt public, I didn't get lucky in this years doe lottery, And I want venison for the freezer. What do you think I and the majority of hunters in this situation is going to do when that spike is standing broadside at 50 yards. Just my opinion but QDM seems to be the baliwick of the landed gentry, and at least for this year the state is having nothing to do with it.


----------



## bwiltse (Jan 18, 2000)

Randy, no question / doubt that the high deer density problem is most serious on private lands. Recent estimates that I've heard place as much as 80% of the deer on private lands.


----------



## Beagle (Dec 27, 2001)

I really agree Boyd. I know of several private sections (square miles) where doe's have not been killed in years, because its the rules. 

How do you get through to those people, that they should kill a few if not more doe's. They are not the guys debating QDM here. They are the ones that read the hunting mags and watch the hunting shows. When is the last time you saw Woods-n-Water have an article about scouting pre-season baldies. Or even an article about the importance of harvesting a few doe's. These people don't even know.

These are the guy's that see the push to harvest more doe's as the great insurance/farmer/DNR conspiracy.

For the last 6 months I have read everything I can get my hands on about CWD. It scares the hell out of me. We need to thin out some very over dense areas.

But on the other side, look at some of the state land by my house. The habitat is poor and the deer are few and far between. I won't kill a doe in those area's because there are just not many deer ...period. And these area's are within a few miles of the over dense areas.


----------



## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

"My point in this is, Public land hunters are limited to one doe tag each this year, There are no left overs. And the one tag is not guaranteed. It is in lottery form. While private land hunters can buy unlimited tags. How do we suppose to reduce the ratio of females in the general herd populations with this system in place." 

Excellent point. I used to hunt public land, and usually got skunked. Loving venison as I do, I can well imagine the frustration of passing on a small buck, knowing that may be my only chance at scoring that season, my only chance at medium-rare backstraps for a long time. And that's after a year of preparation, scouting, target practice, new bow, getting up early in the morning, freezing my butt off, lack of success in getting access to private land, putting up with crowded hunting conditions, listening to complaints about how selfishly I spend my time (I guess I'm getting off track now), etc.

While thousands of Michigan hunters experience the public land hunting game, does are substantially underharvested on private lands throughout broad expanses of our state. 

This is a big topic worth its own thread. Unless we step up our efforts at hunter and landowner education, and I believe the DNR needs to show a bit of leadership on this, does will continue to be underharvested on private land. 





```
Randy K
```





> Randy K


----------



## Joe Archer (Mar 29, 2000)

Very nice twist gentlemen! It is nice to read a QDM thread which stresses the need for increased doe harvest in certain areas, AND points out discrepencies between public and private land populations. <----<<<


----------



## Buckacc (May 19, 2002)

I think the statement should be Don't Shoot That 1-1/2 old Buck and not that spike. The majority of the hunter will shoot the first legal buck that walks by. They also wait till the last days of the season to harvest their doe. I know because most of
my friends do it and I use to do it. I've tried to talk my Friends & nieghbors into QDM , but I've had no lucky (but I keep trying).
I decided to try a different aproach , I try to provide as much
food and cover on my property as possible. I also try not to 
apply to much pressure during the gun season.
I hear alot of you talking about Illinois. I have hunted there
alot of times , on public lands and have been very impressed
with how the DNR runs it. They have short seasons , QDM areas
and when you buy your license you get a antlerless & a either
sex tag. When you see the deer Quality of the deer coming 
from that state you can't help but be impressed.


----------



## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

NOW YOU TELL ME!




I stuck this one about 7 years ago. Funny thing is I saw one last year that looked very much like him. Must be in the genes.


Can't get the darn image thing to work @(*^$#@$(*

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/3363IMAGE2.jpg

Can't get a freekin link to work either.


----------



## Mike (Nov 26, 2000)

FREEPOP,

I've been hunting a big spike like that for a few years. He (or they - offspring) have always come by just out of bow range. Haven't seen him during gun season. Glad you have proof, I usually get a skeptical look when I tell friends about it!

Mike


----------

