# Who's Sending their Dogs off this Winter?



## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

In my case, Bruce is giving my dog 4-6 weeks of wild bird training/exposure that would be extremely difficult or impossible to do here in MI in the middle of Winter. He'll also be getting substantial controlled steadiness and handling training in the 3-4 week Kansas component of the trip.
I sent my gundog Major on the same trip 5-6 years ago and he benefitted greatly from it--the new pup will probably go next year.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Rugergundog said:


> Well sort of; but i do it myself. Winter is my main time i focus my training, usually in January after upland closes up. I just have too much other stuff going on in the summer to apply a organized approach to training while the dead of winter works good. I couldn't stomach sending my guys away.


What kind of training are you doing in the dead of winter? It's just the opposite for me. 9 months out of the year I am hard at it developing and evaluating pups but there is just too much snow here to do anything from mid-december until early march. We do some bench work and some stop to flush in the winter but that's about it.

Bruce and Vance both have winter camps with lots of wild birds. It's really ideal for younger dogs or trial dogs being polished. As someone mentioned, these guys work hard and they don't allow the dogs to get away with all the stuff they tend to get away with while hunting. 

SRB


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> In my case, Bruce is giving my dog 4-6 weeks of wild bird training/exposure that would be extremely difficult or impossible to do here in MI in the middle of Winter. He'll also be getting substantial controlled steadiness and handling training in the 3-4 week Kansas component of the trip.
> I sent my gundog Major on the same trip 5-6 years ago and he benefitted greatly from it--the new pup will probably go next year.


Just like Mike said above plus for me it's like getting the dog another entire season of bird hunting when she would mostly be sitting on the couch getting fat like her owner. Lol


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> Just like Mike said above plus for me it's like getting the dog another entire season of bird hunting when she would mostly be sitting on the couch getting fat like her owner. Lol


 HEY! I resemble that remark.
This will be the first year my Pointer stays home, it could be a long Winter. :yikes:
Bruce and Jenni @ HiFive kennels have done a wonderful job with her I would not hesitate to start my next young dog the same way.


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## #8 shot (Aug 27, 2009)

Thanks for the answers. I was just curious.

Bud


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Brent you don't need winter to get...well in our shape 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

Everyone has had good experiences sending their dogs off then? My (will be) 8 1/2 month old setter pup will be going. 

My pup needs to workout too.... he is very fit, but getting quite lazy from being inside the house.

Just of of curiousity: I know it will be a good experience (thats why im doing it) but what EXACTLY can I expect he will get out of the trip at his age??? (no, the answer I am looking for IS NOT experience...) i.e, how will it help develope him as a future trial dog.... (run, point,....ect), and will it really put him ahead of the puppies that did not go in the spring???


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

kellyM87 said:


> and will it really put him ahead of the puppies that did not go in the spring???


 You are building a foundation. You may not see it so much this Spring against other puppies that don't make the trip(although I think you will notice a difference in him) but you will really see it vs. derbies next year after his second year on the truck.
At least that was my experience.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> You are building a foundation. You may not see it so much this Spring against other puppies that don't make the trip(although I think you will notice a difference in him) but you will really see it vs. derbies next year after his second year on the truck.
> At least that was my experience.


okay then, next question (and its an age-old):

How much does it make a difference, kennel dog vs. house dog???


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

kellyM87 said:


> okay then, next question (and its an age-old):
> 
> How much does it make a difference, kennel dog vs. house dog???


NONE
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

If anything, you'll form a stronger bond with the house dog and he'll probably hunt better for you.

Not saying that kennel dogs can't be great hunters, but the idea that bringing him indoors will make him soft or ruin his nose is hogwash.

KW


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

kellyM87 said:


> okay then, next question (and its an age-old):
> 
> How much does it make a difference, kennel dog vs. house dog???


 Zero.


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## troutchops (Apr 15, 2005)

kellyM87 said:


> okay then, next question (and its an age-old):
> 
> How much does it make a difference, kennel dog vs. house dog???


I think it makes a difference. With a house dog the dog is constantly learning, is bonding to you and your family, and quickly learns it's mission in life is to please you. I think you loose a little of that bond sitting in a kennel.


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

troutchops said:


> I think it makes a difference. With a house dog the dog is constantly learning, is bonding to you and your family, and quickly learns it's mission in life is to please you. I think you loose a little of that bond sitting in a kennel.


 Now to be the Devils Advocate. Kelly's original question pertained to a TRIAL dog. So being a house dog has the dog bonding more with you. Will this take away the independance that a trial dog needs to win? Will a kenneled dog retain more independance? Just wondering. For the record I've had both and never saw a difference weather for trialing or hunting. How could I tell? House dogs moved to the kennels and kenneled dogs moved in the house.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

kellyM87 said:


> Everyone has had good experiences sending their dogs off then? My (will be) 8 1/2 month old setter pup will be going.
> 
> My pup needs to workout too.... he is very fit, but getting quite lazy from being inside the house.
> 
> Just of of curiousity: I know it will be a good experience (thats why im doing it) but what EXACTLY can I expect he will get out of the trip at his age??? (no, the answer I am looking for IS NOT experience...) i.e, how will it help develope him as a future trial dog.... (run, point,....ect), and will it really put him ahead of the puppies that did not go in the spring???


Kelly,

Scott G already hit this one dead center. I just wanted to second his comments. That age between 8-16 months is a really crucial time to be developing pattern and handling. The more powerful dog you have the more control you need. I know you don't want to hear about experience but wild birds at this age are the very best teacher. I don't believe in "training" in the strict sense of the word with real young dogs. It's a developmental process. Bruce and Vance are both really skilled guys who won't take a one dog fits all approach. They will observe your dogs tendencies, strengths, and weaknesses and tailor their workouts accordingly.

Where house vs kennel is concerned... We have had several house dogs that were trialed over the years and there is a slightly better bond with a house dog but I have not really seen that translate to a difference in handling or any other form of performance in competition.

Keep in mind we dont spoil our house dogs at all.

Old house dog

















New house dog


















SRB


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

troutchops said:


> I think it makes a difference. With a house dog the dog is constantly learning, is bonding to you and your family, and quickly learns it's mission in life is to please you. I think you loose a little of that bond sitting in a kennel.


I couldn't disagree more with that. Assuming the dog is well socialized the larger variety of experiences the dog gets the better the dog will be. I've sent 2 of my dogs off on various trips and they have both came back and it look them less than 30 seconds to get back in the groove. the more dogs are exposed to various situations the better the dog will be at dealing with stress ie training, travel and new/different people coming in and out of their lives.


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## fishinlk (Apr 14, 2000)

I don't that I could send mine away like that either. Then again our weather is a little milder and I can still get some training in throughout most the winter down here in OH on my own, just not as many birds. Nobody ever did say how much it cost to do that though?


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

fishinlk said:


> I don't that I could send mine away like that either. Then again our weather is a little milder and I can still get some training in throughout most the winter down here in OH on my own, just not as many birds. Nobody ever did say how much it cost to do that though?


I used to think that way too but, I like to kill birds and realize my limitations as a trainer. My last 2 seasons were far more productive with the dogs than as seasons past. I miss the dogs but I love the results. Trust me if you were a dog would you rather be on a 6 week road trip hunting wild birds or cooped up inside a house plus I thinknit makes the dogs tougher and more patient.


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## troutchops (Apr 15, 2005)

BIGSP said:


> I couldn't disagree more with that. Assuming the dog is well socialized the larger variety of experiences the dog gets the better the dog will be. I've sent 2 of my dogs off on various trips and they have both came back and it look them less than 30 seconds to get back in the groove. the more dogs are exposed to various situations the better the dog will be at dealing with stress ie training, travel and new/different people coming in and out of their lives.


I thought Kelly was asking about kennel vs house. That's what I answered. Of course it's better to socialize your dogs as much as possible, but what does that have to do with your dog being in a kennel or not?


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

wow that must be why my dogs are terrible. they aren't house dogs hmmm. I have the opposite opinion. in a kennel they don't learn bad habits from people or other dogs teaching them things I don't want them to know. also I thnk they get more exercise in a kennel than in my house. sounds crazy but they are always moving in a kennel. I don't have to trim their nails haha. 

I do know of some really really nice trial dogs that are house dogs 

I don't think there is evidence to say kennel dogs are better or worse than house dogs.


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## ausable riverboat (May 10, 2010)

Been reading this post and hate to say but. There is a few things here that I see. People want a excellent hunting but don't know how to train dogs or to lazy to do it. My GSP are kennel dogs not house dogs. I have hunted over 100 days a year. Have never had to have other people do my traing. I have enjoyed the training as much as the hunting. I think a dog either has it or doesn't. Don't want to upset people but this is the way I feel.My dogs love to hunt and give 110%. I would hope that hunters would train dogs to hunt the way they want them to.


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## Bobby (Dec 21, 2002)

ausable riverboat said:


> Been reading this post and hate to say but. There is a few things here that I see. People want a excellent hunting but don't know how to train dogs or to lazy to do it. My GSP are kennel dogs not house dogs. I have hunted over 100 days a year. Have never had to have other people do my traing. I have enjoyed the training as much as the hunting. I think a dog either has it or doesn't. Don't want to upset people but this is the way I feel.My dogs love to hunt and give 110%. I would hope that hunters would train dogs to hunt the way they want them to.


You live in Grayling, within minutes of very good grouse & woodcock cover. You have the ability to be in the grouse woods within 5 minutes of walking out your back door, and I don't know exactly where you live. But nothing in Grayling is more than 5 minutes from a grouse.

I drive 2 hours to the first grouse cover from my home. And there are 10 other guys in the same place training or hunting. Some of them are the pros these guys are sending their dogs with. We're not lazy. That's an insult. I work at least 10 hours a day, I travel quite a bit for work. many of us do the same. A pro trainer can do in one week what it would take me 6 weekends and 6 trips north to that 2 hour cover. And our dogs are trianed the way we hunt. That's what we ask of and pay for from our pro trainer.

We all have different circumstances and certainly different outlooks on what we want, how we get it and what we do with it.

Good luck


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

ausable riverboat said:


> Been reading this post and hate to say but. There is a few things here that I see. People want a excellent hunting but don't know how to train dogs or to lazy to do it. My GSP are kennel dogs not house dogs. I have hunted over 100 days a year. Have never had to have other people do my traing. I have enjoyed the training as much as the hunting. I think a dog either has it or doesn't. Don't want to upset people but this is the way I feel.My dogs love to hunt and give 110%. I would hope that hunters would train dogs to hunt the way they want them to.


Some of us can't hunt 100 days a year so, we employ someone else to help us out. Maybe your expectations of your dogs is different than others (some may want more some may want less). It doesn't mean that you are any more passionate about your pursuit than the rest of us. Even if I could hunt 100 days a year I would still employ a dog trainer. There are things about dogs I just don't know.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

The way I look at it is that once that pup is born you got 9 years of hunting with it so why not optimize there potential
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

100 days a year? With that kind of ground time on grouse (and I presume A+ covers) you should be able to take about any crap eater and get some reasonable production out of them. 

For those less fortunate, there are other means like hiring a pro or working with libbies. For my non-trial dogs, I do a good number of off-season weekend training trips, run woodcock down here during the migrations and sprinkle in some liberated bird work as well. Lazy?


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

ausable riverboat said:


> Been reading this post and hate to say but. There is a few things here that I see. People want a excellent hunting but don't know how to train dogs or to lazy to do it. My GSP are kennel dogs not house dogs. I have hunted over 100 days a year. Have never had to have other people do my traing. I have enjoyed the training as much as the hunting. I think a dog either has it or doesn't. Don't want to upset people but this is the way I feel.My dogs love to hunt and give 110%. I would hope that hunters would train dogs to hunt the way they want them to.



I love to train the dog as well. . .but I'm also smart enough to know that I am not a pro and my dog will be better off for getting more experience with a professional trainer. My trainer knows exactly what I want out of the dog and he will help the dog reach his potential quicker than I could. After losing my other dog last year at 6 1/2, I wanted my 14 month old dog as ready as possible for the season. It was definitely worth the money.

And you are not upsetting me, I trained my first dog by myself with the help from some NAVHDA people. . .she was good for as much as I screwed her up.:lol:


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

Maybe he is going pro. Think about if you had a string of setters you have to pay me to help train a short hair or at least supply the 2x4s!!!

Give this grayling guy a break. There is only 92 days you can hunt grouse in Mi. and if he hunting shortshairs it just seems longer.


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## coverdog (Dec 7, 2003)

I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. 

That is all...


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## ausable riverboat (May 10, 2010)

Some of you didn,t like my post but I feel that everone wants to hunt excellent cover and have a good dog. I feel that you get a better dog if you do the training yourself. As far as the 92 days go I don't hunt on Sundays but beside Michigan I hunt Iowa. Minn and ND.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> Maybe he is going pro. Think about if you had a string of setters you have to pay me to help train a short hair or at least supply the 2x4s!!!
> 
> Give this grayling guy a break. There is only 92 days you can hunt grouse in Mi. and if he hunting shortshairs it just seems longer.


One of your better posts. I laughed out loud when I read it. Thanks for starting my day out with a laugh.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

ausable riverboat said:


> Some of you didn,t like my post but I feel that everone wants to hunt excellent cover and have a good dog. I feel that you get a better dog if you do the training yourself. As far as the 92 days go I don't hunt on Sundays but beside Michigan I hunt Iowa. Minn and ND.



It's not a matter of like or dislike. It's a matter of circumstances. Re-read Bobby's post. Most of us have responsibilities in our lives that prevent us from hunting 92 days. Many of us have to travel to expose our dogs to wild birds. Some of us find some of those other responsibilities quite fulfilling but would also like to have hunting dogs that preform as well as possible. Therefore the time and resources that we commit to professional training is just a cost of doing business in our lives. Good luck, macvet51


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

ausable riverboat said:


> Been reading this post and hate to say but. There is a few things here that I see. People want a excellent hunting but don't know how to train dogs or to lazy to do it. My GSP are kennel dogs not house dogs. I have hunted over 100 days a year. Have never had to have other people do my traing. I have enjoyed the training as much as the hunting. I think a dog either has it or doesn't. Don't want to upset people but this is the way I feel.My dogs love to hunt and give 110%. I would hope that hunters would train dogs to hunt the way they want them to.


I can speak for myself only. it's cheaper to send my dog with a pro than to own a horse. a trailer. a big truck. 
I can care less about grouse hunting to be honest with you. I would rather deer hunt


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

chewy said:


> I can speak for myself only. it's cheaper to send my dog with a pro than to own a horse. a trailer. a big truck.
> I can care less about grouse hunting to be honest with you. I would rather deer hunt


Not being a smart ***** but why own dogs then?


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

chewy said:


> I can speak for myself only. it's cheaper to send my dog with a pro than to own a horse. a trailer. a big truck.
> I can care less about grouse hunting to be honest with you. I would rather deer hunt


On that I think that we can agree; campaigning a dog nationally isn't cheap, but a pro handler can spread some of the costs over a lot of dogs, which I think ultimately, may be cheaper than doing it yourself.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

BIGSP said:


> Not being a smart ***** but why own dogs then?


well why dies someone in Texas own a dog? there aren't grouse there v

I Like hunting in fields not woods. thus the reason I'm not a big grouse hunter. 

a grouse isn't the only gamebird


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## troutchops (Apr 15, 2005)

chewy said:


> a grouse isn't the only gamebird


That's true, but it is the "King".


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Well for you guys that may be on the fence about sending a dog for a few weeks with a trainer it will be worth it. As BIGSP can attest for this spring early summer I would of sold my male Benelli but by working with Vance he had one of the better years of any dog I have owned and there no longer a price tag on him. The little things that these trainers do is priceless
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

troutchops said:


> That's true, but it is the "King".


 
lol hardly. I will take pheasant or quail hunting over grouse any day of the week.. 

Which is why i do FIELD trials. And field trial events include pheasant championships, prairie chicken., etc etc


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

chewy said:


> lol hardly. I will take pheasant or quail hunting over grouse any day of the week..
> 
> Which is why i do FIELD trials. And field trial events include pheasant championships, prairie chicken., etc etc


Cool thanks for the answer.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Chewy, How's the prarie chicken hunting around Midland? mac


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

Mike McDonald said:


> Chewy, How's the prarie chicken hunting around Midland? mac


There's a mounted one in my bar that's in Midland county. Does that count?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Induna said:


> There's a mounted one in my bar that's in Midland county. Does that count?


He shoots and scores!


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike McDonald said:


> Chewy, How's the prarie chicken hunting around Midland? mac


 
Its pretty good on my video game.. Actually take a trip out west its pretty nice..


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

I love grouse hunting, but with my pup i just want him to win, no matter what the trial is 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> Chewy, How's the prarie chicken hunting around Midland? mac


Ironically, it might have been quite good about 100 years ago. I just finished reading "The Prairie Grouse of Michigan" written in 1957 by Andy Ammann. The book has historical Michigan ranges of chickens and sharpies and around the turn of the 20th century, prarie chickens were present nearly state-wide with the massive burned-over cuts that were prevalent.



kellyM87 said:


> I love grouse hunting, but with my pup i just want him to win, no matter what the trial is
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Best of luck this Spring! I'll be there with the new pup and also watching Bruce (usually) handle my shooting dog.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> Ironically, it might have been quite good about 100 years ago. I just finished reading "The Prairie Grouse of Michigan" written in 1957 by Andy Ammann. The book has historical Michigan ranges of chickens and sharpies and around the turn of the 20th century, prarie chickens were present nearly state-wide with the massive burned-over cuts that were prevalent.


While in college, one of my biology classes took a field trip to watch the prairie chickens do their dance. Just north of Marion.


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> Ironically, it might have been quite good about 100 years ago. I just finished reading "The Prairie Grouse of Michigan" written in 1957 by Andy Ammann. The book has historical Michigan ranges of chickens and sharpies and around the turn of the 20th century, prarie chickens were present nearly state-wide with the massive burned-over cuts that were prevalent.
> 
> 
> Best of luck this Spring! I'll be there with the new pup and also watching Bruce (usually) handle my shooting dog.


Lol, our pups will probably be competing against each other, so no fraternizing with the enemy,  ( but good luck with your dogs too!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

FindTheBird said:


> Ironically, it might have been quite good about 100 years ago. I just finished reading "The Prairie Grouse of Michigan" written in 1957 by Andy Ammann. The book has historical Michigan ranges of chickens and sharpies and around the turn of the 20th century, prarie chickens were present nearly state-wide with the massive burned-over cuts that were prevalent.
> 
> 
> Best of luck this Spring! I'll be there with the new pup and also watching Bruce (usually) handle my shooting dog.


is there more than one class of digs in cover dogs? ie. gundog shooting dog all age


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

FTB's pup is a hunting dog. She won't be campaigned. And if you will buy that...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

chewy said:


> is there more than one class of digs in cover dogs? ie. gundog shooting dog all age



Gun Dog (only two non-sanctioned trials at this point)
Puppy
Derby
Shooting Dog (some people call it "AA" but it's really far from the horseback equivalent



RecurveRx said:


> FTB's pup is a hunting dog. She won't be campaigned. And if you will buy that...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 She's both! We'll play around with some puppy stakes this Spring, and if she continues to show the natural bird manners that she's exhibited, and her independence/range grows, maybe we'll enter a derby or two late in the Spring. BTW, her FDSB registration is in the mail; she'll likely be "HiFive's RockNWrangler" after Dad and Grandma.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Mike, haven't you been paying attention? A dog can't do both, especially if said dog is a pointer. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

RecurveRx said:


> Mike, haven't you been paying attention? A dog can't do both, especially if said dog is a pointer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I know, I know, the setter is the only breed who can do numbers of grouse in a hunting environment! (as I take another sip of my cool-aid:lol.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

FindTheBird said:


> Gun Dog (only two non-sanctioned trials at this point)
> Puppy
> Derby
> Shooting Dog (some people call it "AA" but it's really far from the horseback equivalent
> She's both! We'll play around with some puppy stakes this Spring, and if she continues to show the natural bird manners that she's exhibited, and her independence/range grows, maybe we'll enter a derby or two late in the Spring. BTW, her FDSB registration is in the mail; she'll likely be "HiFive's RockNWrangler" after Dad and Grandma.


What determines a gun dog and a shooting dog. I know in horse stuff its range. and theere is a big diference between a gun dog akc and gun dog AF .


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

chewy said:


> What determines a gun dog and a shooting dog. I know in horse stuff its range. and theere is a big diference between a gun dog akc and gun dog AF .


The coverdog gundog ("hunting dog") stakes are purely non-sanctioned fun trials with fairly strict requirements about dis-allowing AF dogs with shooting dog or AA placements and adult dog placements in other formats. Those two trials are primarily designed for meat dogs and to introduce their owners to something resembling grouse trials.

I believe that's how "old man Minard" got hooked over 20 years ago.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

findthebird said:


> i believe that's how "old man minard" got hooked over 20 years ago.:d


hey now!!!


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Back woods said:


> hey now!!!


How old is baby faced Mike?


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## kellyM87 (Oct 23, 2008)

What age do you expect a pup to have its full maturity/range/independence?


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Back woods said:


> hey now!!!


Don't worry Bruce, you fare pretty well unless you're in close proximity to you're darling wife! (I think I'm in the same boat)



BIGSP said:


> How old is baby faced Mike?


Thanks big boy!:lol: 48, but I prefer to go by the age that I act which is usually about 12



kellyM87 said:


> What age do you expect a pup to have its full maturity/range/independence?


Mine have varied quite a bit, but I'd say around 3 years. You should be able to get a better answer from the more experienced folks.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> Thanks big boy!:lol: 48, but I prefer to go by the age that I act which is usually about 12


 Like my Grandad used to say you are only as old as the women you feel. :tdo12:


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