# Dog breeding/breeders??



## Grayphase (May 11, 2010)

Didnt mean to hit a nerve there Ronnem. Personnally have nothing against close working dogs just not my thing to use a Pointer or Setter for that type of hunting when other breeds fit that need. What I have found is that many (not all) people new to grouse hunting and pointing dogs that purchase bigger slower close hunting type of breeding usually regret it in the long run. All but outright missles can learn to hunt close to the gun. Dog needs to know when 20 yrds is too far and 100 not far enough. Has alot to do with breeding which is what the thread is about. Chromosome pairs, gene strings, outbreeding vrs inbreeding, backyard vs kennel breeders. All issues that have been debated for years long before any hunting dog forums. GSP Gal has it right. Do your homework. Hunt over one or both parents. Doesnt matter who the breeder is.


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## Ronnem (Sep 14, 2005)

No one has rubbed my wrong, in fact I agree with all of what Scott posted even what doesn't agree with me like the quality of the papers. Scott is breeding for one thing, I am looking for something else. I can tell you this if I was looking for a trial dog he is the guy I would go to, in fact we have spoke in the past in regards to some dogs, but I am sure he doesn't remember. I guess to make my point, when it comes to breeders, it is trust or lack of trust that leads me to decide which breeder. If a breeder is not reporting the facts, how can I trust the papers. So I could care less what the papers say I want to see the parents hunt and be able to trust what the breeder is telling me is the truth regardless where the dogs are bred. You can get a great hunting dog from two great hunting dogs bred in the backyard, it is going to be real hard to get a great trial dog from two hunting dogs bred in a backyard. But when it comes to breeders, and I know Scott disagreed, I was completely disappointed in all the quote un-quote Llewelin bloodline breeders out there. Lots of lies. I just got done doing the research in Europe on the Lavarack(English) Setter, got back here and could not believe what is on the internet websites of Llewelin bloodline breeders. I thought I was looking a different breed, well in some cases that is the claim, that Llewelin is it's own breed. I truely wanted a Llewelin bloodline English setter but could not find one that I could stomach the lies they were telling, and the price, wow I got sticker shock. So if I trust the breeder I don't care if they are BYB or kennel bred, just be a honest breeder, breeding for the right reasons.

Scott 
You are breeding the wrong breed of dogs if you are not making money and you are toooo honest, you need to be breeding silver Weime/labs. Make up a good story and put together a fancy website, you will be retired in 5 years. Y'all know I am just joking. Laugh people laugh.

Ron


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## Ronnem (Sep 14, 2005)

Grayphase said:


> Didnt mean to hit a nerve there Ronnem. Personnally have nothing against close working dogs just not my thing to use a Pointer or Setter for that type of hunting when other breeds fit that need. What I have found is that many (not all) people new to grouse hunting and pointing dogs that purchase bigger slower close hunting type of breeding usually regret it in the long run. All but outright missles can learn to hunt close to the gun. Dog needs to know when 20 yrds is too far and 100 not far enough. Has alot to do with breeding which is what the thread is about. Chromosome pairs, gene strings, outbreeding vrs inbreeding, backyard vs kennel breeders. All issues that have been debated for years long before any hunting dog forums. GSP Gal has it right. Do your homework. Hunt over one or both parents. Doesnt matter who the breeder is.


Don't mis-understand me when I say this, but you do know that close working is one of the characteristics of the English Setter breed. I know most think that all pointers are supposed to be big running, but that is not the truth and where these breeds originated they are still not big running dogs and setters are considered close working in the U.K. The big run was bred in to the setter here in the U.S.. Which is a desired trait here... but not over there....just like the 12 o'clock tail, you won't see it in europe although it is a must in the field trial world here. So I am not trying to be a jerk, but setters are supposed to be a close working dog. And I will define my close, it will be different for everyone, but close for me is 80-100 yards. For some close may be 10 feet so I wanted to make that clear.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Ronnem said:


> No one has rubbed my wrong, in fact I agree with all of what Scott posted even what doesn't agree with me like the quality of the papers. Scott is breeding for one thing, I am looking for something else. I can tell you this if I was looking for a trial dog he is the guy I would go to, in fact we have spoke in the past in regards to some dogs, but I am sure he doesn't remember. I guess to make my point, when it comes to breeders, it is trust or lack of trust that leads me to decide which breeder. If a breeder is not reporting the facts, how can I trust the papers. So I could care less what the papers say I want to see the parents hunt and be able to trust what the breeder is telling me is the truth regardless where the dogs are bred. You can get a great hunting dog from two great hunting dogs bred in the backyard, it is going to be real hard to get a great trial dog from two hunting dogs bred in a backyard. But when it comes to breeders, and I know Scott disagreed, I was completely disappointed in all the quote un-quote Llewelin bloodline breeders out there. Lots of lies. I just got done doing the research in Europe on the Lavarack(English) Setter, got back here and could not believe what is on the internet websites of Llewelin bloodline breeders. I thought I was looking a different breed, well in some cases that is the claim, that Llewelin is it's own breed. I truely wanted a Llewelin bloodline English setter but could not find one that I could stomach the lies they were telling, and the price, wow I got sticker shock. So if I trust the breeder I don't care if they are BYB or kennel bred, just be a honest breeder, breeding for the right reasons.
> 
> Scott
> You are breeding the wrong breed of dogs if you are not making money and you are toooo honest, you need to be breeding silver Weime/labs. Make up a good story and put together a fancy website, you will be retired in 5 years. Y'all know I am just joking. Laugh people laugh.
> ...


Ron,

We are really both looking for the same thing, an effective hunting dog. We just have different, but not drastically different opinions on what is the most effective form of a hunting dog. BTW 25-30 years my opinion closely mirrored yours. 

90+% of our dogs go to hunters. We do have 2-3 litters/yr that are going to be too much dog for most people and I simply won't sell them to anyone I dont think is right for the litter. Frankly, there have been a few times when people were pretty ticked off because I would not sell them a dog. 

In a ruffed grouse dog I am not a proponent of a 300 or 400 yard dog. What many people just can't seem to grasp is that those dogs are pushed to that range and the logic is very solid in terms of why they are pushed to find the best individuals for breeding. I won't go there, it's to long a story. Most of the same dogs that win trials would have been much more moderate in range had they been developed in the form of a hunting dog instead of trial dog. I like a dog in the woods that ranges from 50-150 yards and the occasional bigger cast. When a dog is at the max of that range it takes about two minutes to get to them. If a dog can't hold a bird for two minutes it's not much of a dog. 

Where European tpye dogs are concerned, their physical type and gait are very poorly suited for the woods. I am all for everyone hunting with whatever trips their trigger but a wide reciever or running back is going to be a lot more effective running through an obstacle course than an offensive linemen.There are many things that have evolved into a better form over the past century and bird dogs are no exception. I can never figure out why people argue that their form 100 years ago is evidence of what they should be today. I don't think any of us would want a car that looked like and performed like an Edsel?

SRB


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> Ron,
> 
> We are really both looking for the same thing, an effective hunting dog. We just have different, but not drastically different opinions on what is the most effective form of a hunting dog. BTW 25-30 years my opinion closely mirrored yours.
> 
> ...


Scott would you please elaborate on the gait theory. I've heard it before and I think I have seen what you are talking about but, just don't know what the difference is.

I have a 1 year old pointer that last fall ran the woods as a 8 month old and she just seems to glide through the cover. Of my 2 shorhairs one runs big and hard and one runs good but not nearly as hard. I was recently told by Kit Foster at an RGS fun trial that my male dog Maverick "was one of the few shorthairs he'd ever seen that could run with the coverdogs". I think he runs good but, he crashes through the cover as opposed to gliding like the pointer.

I guess amongst my ramblings I would just like to hear your theory on gait.


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Scott Berg said:


> Where European tpye dogs are concerned, their physical type and gait are very poorly suited for the woods. I am all for everyone hunting with whatever trips their trigger but a wide reciever or running back is going to be a lot more effective running through an obstacle course than an offensive linemen.There are many things that have evolved into a better form over the past century and bird dogs are no exception. I can never figure out why people argue that their form 100 years ago is evidence of what they should be today. I don't think any of us would want a car that looked like and performed like an Edsel?
> 
> SRB


Scott, I am glad you posted that. Anyone without credentials would have gotten flamed for making that statement.



BIGSP said:


> I was recently told by Kit Foster at an RGS fun trial that my male dog Maverick "was one of the few shorthairs he'd ever seen that could run with the coverdogs".


Are you serious? I don't know Kit from Adam, but maybe he should look at more shorthairs. In my limited 6-7 years of having bird dogs I still have yet to see why the coverdog guys seem to think that their dogs are the only "big running" dogs, or shorthairs can't keep up. I have trained with coverdogs, and I have seen NO difference in their range compared to any trial bred shorthair. Hell, my 10 month old has no problem stretching out to 250-300 yards, and it's not just for fun. But so be it, carry on.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Scott Berg said:


> Where European tpye dogs are concerned, their physical type and gait are very poorly suited for the woods. I am all for everyone hunting with whatever trips their trigger but a wide reciever or running back is going to be a lot more effective running through an obstacle course than an offensive linemen.There are many things that have evolved into a better form over the past century and bird dogs are no exception. I can never figure out why people argue that their form 100 years ago is evidence of what they should be today. I don't think any of us would want a car that looked like and performed like an Edsel?
> 
> SRB


You're really making two statements there and they're rather sweeping. Are you saying that you feel dogs in Europe haven't evolved over the last 100 years? What evidence can you provide to show that dogs bred in Europe today are ill suited to the woods here? What are you basing those statements on? How many such dogs do you see here state side every year?

When breeding for one or another field trial format your statement makes sense. There are rules, behavior, endurance, and looks that judges evaluate dogs on. Not to mention a certain level of training. But in the context of hunting, I'm curious what you base that assessment on.

The dogs in the video below are not close working, at least not in my opinion, but they are most likely European bred dogs and appear to be quite well trained in the methods Euros use with pointing dogs. Their training aside, explain to me how dogs such as these are any less suited to hunting in the woods or anywhere else in North America for that matter. Would you call these dogs Edsels?

http://russianpointdogs.ning.com/video/film-ohota-s-legavymi-v

I'm not trying to "flame" you here. I'm really just curious what your statements are based on.


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## birddawger (Feb 10, 2010)

I went to one of the dog shows at Gladwin this spring. I didn't see any dogs using orange vests like the ones in the video that Ronnen posted. Orange vests on dogs seems like that would have helped seeing and knowing where the dogs were. It might have helped with all of the yelling and whistle blowing too!
I like the dogs in the video. I bet they would do good in the grouse dog shows. Not as wild as the ones I saw.


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## Ronnem (Sep 14, 2005)

WestCoastHunter said:


> You're really making two statements there and they're rather sweeping. Are you saying that you feel dogs in Europe haven't evolved over the last 100 years? What evidence can you provide to show that dogs bred in Europe today are ill suited to the woods here? What are you basing those statements on? How many such dogs do you see here state side every year?
> 
> When breeding for one or another field trial format your statement makes sense. There are rules, behavior, endurance, and looks that judges evaluate dogs on. Not to mention a certain level of training. But in the context of hunting, I'm curious what you base that assessment on.
> 
> ...


I am not trying to jump on Scott's question, but to shed alittle light on the European dog issue I will say this. I have been going to Europe every year for 19 years, lived there for 4 years, of course I follow the dog seen as much as possible over there, along with here. When it comes to the breeds in Europe, they have not been breeding hunt into the dogs, it is almost like they have bred the hunt out of the dog. When it comes to the aesthetics the dogs will look just like the breed did 200 years ago, same gate, same colors, same everything, minus the nose to find birds. So I wouldn't say it is the gate that is off, in fact I love the gate, that smooth gliding motion, like silk, it is the hunt or lack of hunt that is off to me and this is the only reason I don't bring dogs over from Europe, no hunt. So to me here in the U.S. we have the hunt, Europe by far has the visual confirmation, we both have the same genetic defects that were probably locked in during some of the first close in-breedings. If I bought a quote un-quote finished dog from europe, and turned them out in the grouse woods, the dog would probably trip over it's own feet trying to get back in the truck. Now if you bought a pup from over there you would have a better chance of training the pup and getting a fairly good dog. But then again why spend the money, take the time to find and ship the dog here when there is every type of dog here that you can see and evaluate parents right in your own backyard (maybe not the best choice of words but you get the point). Both the USA and Europe could learn so much about breeding dogs from each other if they ever combined notes, which will never happen. Europe does not have the aesthetic hang ups that we have, things that are more of a fashion and subjective, more of a preference like color and tail set, those standards are already set and followed. They need to start breeding the hunt back into them, but with their very limited gene pool, and I mean very limited, probably 1% (someone needs to check this I am only guessing) the dogs we have here. So we have a larger gene pool of higher quality dogs by far, we only have to use that gene pool wisely.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule so don't think I am saying every dog everywhere in Europe will fall into these standards.


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

"Where European tpye dogs are concerned, their physical type and gait are very poorly suited for the woods. I am all for everyone hunting with whatever trips their trigger but a wide reciever or running back is going to be a lot more effective running through an obstacle course than an offensive linemen.There are many things that have evolved into a better form over the past century and bird dogs are no exception. I can never figure out why people argue that their form 100 years ago is evidence of what they should be today. I don't think any of us would want a car that looked like and performed like an Edsel?"


I think you have been looking in the wrong places for European bred dogs that have the correct physical type and gait for the woods. We hunt Grouse and Woodcock. The breeders I import our dogs from also hunt "Becasse". I am not promoting our dogs over any other breed, there are many other breeds that these hunters (Becassiers) hunt with. They are very passionate about their dogs as well as their hunting. We also train and test NAVHDA, VHDF, and run in a few NSTRA events with good results. While your statement may be true about some versatile breeders in Europe, it is not true about all of them, the same can be said for breeders here in the states. I have just gotten back from my 3rd trip over to France with a new pup, if she is anything like her parents she should prove to be another great hunting dog. I think my 5 dogs (Braque du Bourbonnais) may change your mind about your statement.

I am sorry, this has nothing to do with the post: just need to put my 2 cents worth in about this statement.

2 Dogs from France: (L) Braque du Bourbonnais (R) Brittany










Below is a pup I imported last year she was 7months old at the time this picture was taken.


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## Induna (Apr 19, 2007)

There was a group from Europe, Norway I think, at the trials in Gladwin this season. Their concensus was that the most mediocor dog of ours that they saw was as good as their champions. We must be doing something right. They were looking into getting frozen seman to ship home.
In thinking about it they may have been from Sweden, I recall remarks about the Miller Lite Ski Team.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Ronnem said:


> I am not trying to jump on Scott's question, but to shed alittle light on the European dog issue I will say this. I have been going to Europe every year for 19 years, lived there for 4 years, of course I follow the dog seen as much as possible over there, along with here. When it comes to the breeds in Europe, they have not been breeding hunt into the dogs, it is almost like they have bred the hunt out of the dog. When it comes to the aesthetics the dogs will look just like the breed did 200 years ago, same gate, same colors, same everything, minus the nose to find birds. So I wouldn't say it is the gate that is off, in fact I love the gate, that smooth gliding motion, like silk, it is the hunt or lack of hunt that is off to me and this is the only reason I don't bring dogs over from Europe, no hunt. So to me here in the U.S. we have the hunt, Europe by far has the visual confirmation, we both have the same genetic defects that were probably locked in during some of the first close in-breedings. If I bought a quote un-quote finished dog from europe, and turned them out in the grouse woods, the dog would probably trip over it's own feet trying to get back in the truck. Now if you bought a pup from over there you would have a better chance of training the pup and getting a fairly good dog. But then again why spend the money, take the time to find and ship the dog here when there is every type of dog here that you can see and evaluate parents right in your own backyard (maybe not the best choice of words but you get the point). Both the USA and Europe could learn so much about breeding dogs from each other if they ever combined notes, which will never happen. Europe does not have the aesthetic hang ups that we have, things that are more of a fashion and subjective, more of a preference like color and tail set, those standards are already set and followed. They need to start breeding the hunt back into them, but with their very limited gene pool, and I mean very limited, probably 1% (someone needs to check this I am only guessing) the dogs we have here. So we have a larger gene pool of higher quality dogs by far, we only have to use that gene pool wisely.
> 
> Of course there are exceptions to every rule so don't think I am saying every dog everywhere in Europe will fall into these standards.


 Ronnen, I totally agree with your stament about the Euro dogs lacking hunt. Speaking more from the GSP standpoint anyway. I have not seen a bunch of them but those that I have, have all lacked drive and hunt.
They tend to be less athletic and have less style on point and lack anamation to there gait.
It is a little difficult to judge the pointers gait in the mountains like that but to give you an idea of what a good gait consists of. You are looking for a straight back that is not rocking like a hobbie horse. You look for a head that is not bobbing up and down, you want a tail action that is cracking back and forth for balance, you want to see a full range of motion in the dogs gait, not chopped and shortened.He needs to appear light on his feet and have a nice tight foot print not splayed out toes.When he runs you should see those front feet reaching way out and up to get the most out of every stride.
I see NONE of that in the pointers gait in the vidieo.
I have yet to see a GSP come from across the pond with anything but a rough gait.

When Scott speaks of dogs that are built to run in the woods, by that he is probably looking for a shorter coupled, finer boned type dog, with leg length that is proportionate to his body. That is what will produce an agile dog that is made to cut and turn with less effort, stop and start, with less stress and drain an the body.Built with the right amount of muscle mass, not too much and not too little, to get the most out of the dogs endurance .


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## Ronnem (Sep 14, 2005)

When it comes to gait, the only conclusion that I have come up with in regards to the Euro dogs, is this, They have a physically sound gait, if you put them on a lead and lead them in a show ring they will gait with a flat top line, with a fluent motion, off lead in the field they appear lost, the just don't seem to have the drive, it is like they don't know what to do or where to go, "hunt". My dogs, have a rhythm to their gait, a cadence some call it, it is defiently not a run, I have yet to see this rhythm in any of the Euro dogs, they just don't seem to have that rhythm in their gait or gait in their rhythm not sure what is going on with it but there is defiently something going on. Like I said I have no idea, but something is missing.......

Ron


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Ronnem said:


> When it comes to gait, the only conclusion that I have come up with in regards to the Euro dogs, is this, They have a physically sound gait, if you put them on a lead and lead them in a show ring they will gait with a flat top line, with a fluent motion, off lead in the field they appear lost, the just don't seem to have the drive, it is like they don't know what to do or where to go, "hunt". My dogs, have a rhythm to their gait, a cadence some call it, it is defiently not a run, I have yet to see this rhythm in any of the Euro dogs, they just don't seem to have that rhythm in their gait or gait in their rhythm not sure what is going on with it but there is defiently something going on. Like I said I have no idea, but something is missing.......
> 
> Ron


 I was not speaking about them prancing across some show ring, beside some big lady in an ill fitting dress, that is out of breath.:lol:. I am talking about a flat out run across the field. Im talking about looking at the gait after they are 45 minutes into it.That is where it you can evaluate gaits.The bad gaited dogs will usually be trotting or walking at that time. They will be laboring just to keep up after only a few minutes.It just drains them of endurance due to so much effort put forth to run.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

I will try to answer everyone at once. 

BIGSP & Firemedic, I started with GSPs. Their athleticism has improved a great deal over the past 30 years and it&#8217;s not just because of the insertion of Pointer blood as some might like to claim. There are quite a few very selective GSP breeders and several of them have a good understanding of genetics. There are a fair number of them that can hang with Pointers and Setters, especially in the open. They do have a gait better suited for open country. Agility and a fleet footed stride provide the ability to pick their way through the cover at great speed and that&#8217;s the difference in the crashing vs gliding through the woods that you (BIGSP) have noted. It&#8217;s a bit difficult to describe the ideal gait. Crosswind's description is good. However, I would add that I have a personal preference for dogs that are not quite as compact as some others like in the woods. I have observed over the years that the compact dogs do not have the stamina of dogs with a little more reach and smoother gait. I also do 1/2 on my hunting in open country where a smoother / longer stride has benefits in ground coverage, stamina, and heat tolerance.
This dog does well in the woods. [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlga01A8C9g"]YouTube- Berg Brothers Blazin Bess[/nomedia]

WCH, I made absolutely no comment on the evolution or lack of evolution of dogs in Europe, you made an assumption that my position on how dogs have evolved in America means dogs in Europe have not evolved. My comments addressed only that the dogs we started with when those dogs were imported long ago have evolved substantially to fit our application and definition of style. There is no commentary or opinion within that statement on the state of evolution of European dogs. I will say this, I saw a video on their National Championship and in terms of evaluation and trial formats they are WAY behind us. They evaluated 50 dogs in one day. Our National Championship takes two weeks for forty dogs for good reason. This was their first year of a National Championship and we have had a National Championship for over a century. As a matter of fact, they evaluate all 50 dogs in the morning and then have a call back in the afternoon. How in the world can you make a meaningful evaluation of 50 dogs in a morning? 

Birdhuntingbtch, I did not specify but my comments were meant specifically about European Setters. I have seen several in person, and videos of their tops dogs. I have not been looking in the wrong places. The individuals that lead their breeding efforts for Setters came to me for advice on what American dogs to use to breed more athleticism in their dogs. The Pointers are dominating the Setters in Europe.

I have seen a half dozen Braque du Bourbonnais in person. The majority of grouse trials are open breed and you have a great opportunity, assuming you live in Michigan to make an enormous statement about the Braque du Bourbonnais you have imported. Field trials provide us breeders an opportunity to prove that we are not just kennel blind and actually produce animals that are exceptional when compared to others entered in a competitive environment. Your program would gain incredible credibility if you could compete and gain placements in open breed cover dog trials. For that matter, US Complete, ABHA, NBHA or open breed HB trials would also be very credible accomplishments. 

SRB


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## Ronnem (Sep 14, 2005)

Now that's funny. Yea, the old beached whale, with missing teeth (had to add that) in the dress having a heartattack after gaiting 75 feet, are we talking about the dog or the handler? We could be talking both. I'm still laughing.

Ron


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

SRB - PM sent


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

crosswind said:


> I was not speaking about them prancing across some show ring, beside some big lady in an ill fitting dress, that is out of breath.:lol:.


...and the quote of the month goes to Scott Townsend!:lol::lol::lol:


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## Ronnem (Sep 14, 2005)

FindTheBird said:


> ...and the quote of the month goes to Scott Townsend!:lol::lol::lol:


 
I second that.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Scott Berg said:


> WCH, I made absolutely no comment on the evolution or lack of evolution of dogs in Europe, you made an assumption that my position on how dogs have evolved in America means dogs in Europe have not evolved. My comments addressed only that the dogs we started with when those dogs were imported long ago have evolved substantially to fit our application and definition of style. There is no commentary or opinion within that statement on the state of evolution of European dogs.


I stand corrected then. However if you go back and read that paragraph I think you can see how I could come to that conclusion.



Scott Berg said:


> I will say this, I saw a video on their National Championship and in terms of evaluation and trial formats they are WAY behind us. They evaluated 50 dogs in one day. Our National Championship takes two weeks for forty dogs for good reason. This was their first year of a National Championship and we have had a National Championship for over a century. As a matter of fact, they evaluate all 50 dogs in the morning and then have a call back in the afternoon. How in the world can you make a meaningful evaluation of 50 dogs in a morning?


Point taken.

On the flip side, how do you make a meaningful evaluation between say, two dogs, over two weeks if one dog gets eliminated due to an injury before those two weeks are up? Did the best dog really win? Competition helps in evaluating dogs, but it is not the end all regardless of format or length. I think you would agree.


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