# Wolf hunting Reality Check



## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

From local news last night!!!!!

U.P. farm fearful of wolf population

http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/news/story.aspx?id=1120969#.VGH80JUtBhg

It is inappropriate to suggest we will just deal with it after they have killed our domestic animals, after they have killed our livestock, said Senator Tom Casperson (R), 38th District. Then we can deal with it? There is a problem that we are losing so many livestock.

Ralph was one of the *premier* places to hunt when I first moved here in 1994. Now.............

I *REALLY *think the DNR has to understand that Dickinson and Iron Counties *HAVE A WOLF PROBLEM.*

These counties* NEED* a wolf hunt next year!!!! SPEAK LOUD!!!

Dave


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

First off there are way more than 640 wolves in the UP I do not know where the DNR gets its numbers but they are way off from the mark. Bears in the UP outnumber wolves by almost 14 to 1 and you almost never see a bear. In the spring of the year at one of the UP's premier smelt spots I can find wolf tracks within a couple of hundred yards of where campers are located. Many of the wolves that I see every year are within very short distances of residential areas.
If the wolves are bold enough to go onto a farm and kill a bull then they will kill a human. After having been stalked by wolves a couple of times I know that they will stalk you and most of the time you will not even know that they are there. What the pro wolf people say is just BS. Ask them not one of them spend enough time in the woods to know their true potential. 
If you are outdoors in the UP I strongly recommend that you are armed. The DNR spokesman said it that due to a harsh winter the wolves are hungry. If that is the case a human or child is pretty easy prey. Every year I tell down state fishermen not to go into certain areas unless they take a hand gun and they appreciate the advice.


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## ducksarge (Jul 3, 2011)

Should not be an issue anyway correct ? the dnr is free now to schedule a wolf hunt next year.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

ducksarge said:


> Should not be an issue anyway correct ? the dnr is free now to schedule a wolf hunt next year.


If there is a wolf hunt and do not hold your breath that there will be one in 2015 it will be very conservative. The DNR will have limited zones and a very limited quantity of kills in each zone. I would not expect a zone to be east of I-75 for example. Every county in the UP has experienced wolf predator problems yet only a few counties will have hunting zones.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> First off there are way more than 640 wolves in the UP I do not know where the DNR gets its numbers but they are way off from the mark. Bears in the UP outnumber wolves by almost 14 to 1 and you almost never see a bear. In the spring of the year at one of the UP's premier smelt spots I can find wolf tracks within a couple of hundred yards of where campers are located. Many of the wolves that I see every year are within very short distances of residential areas.
> If the wolves are bold enough to go onto a farm and kill a bull then they will kill a human. After having been stalked by wolves a couple of times I know that they will stalk you and most of the time you will not even know that they are there. What the pro wolf people say is just BS. Ask them not one of them spend enough time in the woods to know their true potential.
> If you are outdoors in the UP I strongly recommend that you are armed. The DNR spokesman said it that due to a harsh winter the wolves are hungry. If that is the case a human or child is pretty easy prey. Every year I tell down state fishermen not to go into certain areas unless they take a hand gun and they appreciate the advice.


If we accuse the opposition of spewing BS, then we should be cautious to not do the same...

Let's be intelligent about establishing a hunting season, not emotional.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

According to Russ Mason, we will have a wolf hunt in 2015. It will be set up similar to last years hunt. If farmers are having a verifiable wolf depredation problem they are still being supplied with an opportunity to kill the offender this year. 

Don't hold your breath for a UP wide season for the foreseeable future. On a bright note wolves have been leaving the UP. The DNR has confirmed that wolves crossed the ice bridge last winter to the NLP plus one left Isle Royale for Minnesota.


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## backstrap bill (Oct 10, 2004)

It will probly take a tragedy for people to wake up about this. And even then idk.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

backstrap bill said:


> It will probly take a tragedy for people to wake up about this. And even then idk.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


According to what I've found, 20 people have been confirmed killed by black bears in North America. Where is the call to exterminate them from Michigan?

Again, let's be smart and not cloud the issue with emotion.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

triplelunger said:


> If we accuse the opposition of spewing BS, then we should be cautious to not do the same...
> 
> Let's be intelligent about establishing a hunting season, not emotional.





triplelunger said:


> According to what I've found, 20 people have been confirmed killed by black bears in North America. Where is the call to exterminate them from Michigan?
> 
> Again, let's be smart and not cloud the issue with emotion.


I don't see where anyone is "clouding the issue with emotion". How many of the twenty persons killed by black bear were in modern day Michigan? For that matter how many dogs (that were not hunting bear) have been hunted down and killed by black bears in Michigan? How much livestock has been killed in modern day Michigan by black bears? 
What would you suggest as a solution that would not cloud the real issues?


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

triplelunger said:


> According to what I've found, 20 people have been confirmed killed by black bears in North America. Where is the call to exterminate them from Michigan?
> 
> Again, let's be smart and not cloud the issue with emotion.


. 

Well there is YOUR problem. Nobody is calling for the "extermination" of either species....... Just controlling the numbers.

YOU should really refrain from skewing words of another.......

Dave


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

Midalake said:


> .
> 
> Well there is YOUR problem. Nobody is calling for the "extermination" of either species....... Just controlling the numbers.
> 
> ...


Maybe he should move up there and live in the area and report back again in a couple of years


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Scout 2 said:


> Maybe he should move up there and live in the area and report back again in a couple of years


I lived in the UP for 10 years and never had the temptation to gut shoot one under the sss mentality, but I sure heard plenty of guys say they want them all dead. 
I always hear that nothing will be done until some kid gets killed... that is trying to win over the antis with emotion to me. 
Let's fight for a season, but do it the right way. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

triplelunger said:


> I lived in the UP for 10 years and never had the temptation to gut shoot one under the sss mentality, but I sure heard plenty of guys say they want them all dead.
> I always hear that nothing will be done until some kid gets killed... that is trying to win over the antis with emotion to me.
> Let's fight for a season, but do it the right way.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Don't stop with "but do it the right way"

This has been a PROBLEM for almost a DECADE!!!

I am waiting to hear what YOU want to do differently!!!

WHAT should be the plan Triplelunger.......

Dave


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

triplelunger said:


> I lived in the UP for 10 years and never had the temptation to gut shoot one under the sss mentality, but I sure heard plenty of guys say they want them all dead.
> I always hear that nothing will be done until some kid gets killed... that is trying to win over the antis with emotion to me.
> Let's fight for a season, but do it the right way.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


The DNR will recommend a hunt next summer. It will then be up the the NRC to enact the wolf hunt. Contact the NRC if you want a hunt do nothing if you want the antis to get their way.


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## bjacobs (Feb 8, 2007)

Luv2hunteup said:


> The DNR has confirmed that wolves crossed the ice bridge last winter to the NLP


link?


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

bjacobs said:


> link?


Wolves have been in the lower for sometime now. I'm surprised someone wasn't aware of this. The DNR is planning on doing a survey over the winter in the LP. So, more data should be available by next fall. 

For the ranchers who are losing stock to wolf predation. They are already allowed to shoot the ones who are causing them trouble. 

Good Hunting!


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

Nostromo said:


> Wolves have been in the lower for sometime now. I'm surprised someone wasn't aware of this. The DNR is planning on doing a survey over the winter in the LP. So, more data should be available by next fall.
> 
> For the ranchers who are losing stock to wolf predation. They are already allowed to shoot the ones who are causing them trouble.
> 
> Good Hunting!


That's for sure, even had one trapped if I recall. I am as surprised as you!


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

The EUP Sportsmens Coalition was invited to a have lunch with Russ Mason and all of his supervisors. Wolves and deer were the main topics that were discussed during our meeting. Russ Mason is the one who told us that wolves crossed the ice bridge last winter


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

triplelunger said:


> According to what I've found, 20 people have been confirmed killed by black bears in North America. Where is the call to exterminate them from Michigan?
> 
> Again, let's be smart and not cloud the issue with emotion.


So what? How many bears are there compared to wolves? See how asinine your statement always sounds? A few hundred people have been killed in India and Russia the past decade from wolves. That count? Or are they different over there. the fact of the matter is they attack people. maybe if they were in and around the metro areas they would attack more often. Rather anal to spread your don't BS gospel. :sad:


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## fairfax1 (Jun 12, 2003)

3Lunger & I often wear different colored jerseys on several of these wildlife issues.....however.....

He has offered perceptive thinking on this wolf issue. In another recent thread he made the comment that all of the "sss"-talk made the holders of such sentiments sound stupid. It hurts the cause.
(In essence. ---- I didn't go back and find the quote).

When he posted such.....it was an 'aha' moment for me. Of course he is right. The over-the-top verbal enemas that we see here from the most rabid of the anti-wolvers is not damaging wolves..... and not damaging the HSUS-types.

Nope, the damage is done to the credibility of anti-wolvers. It makes them sound like hate-filled simpletons. Worse, it casts moderates who believe there is a role for wolves but support rational and legal control....it appears as if they too are part of the hysterical camp of 'sss'-types.

It is the dumbest of PR moves by anti-wolvers. The too-often expressed 'SSS' sentiments makes the huge...huge.....segment of 'persuadables' recoil in disgust. 

Personally, I believe we SHOULD allow wolves in our wild lands. And I believe they must be controlled ....as wild deer must be controlled. Proper and legal regulated hunting CAN control both species.

But when I read these irrational diatribes full of anger......I hafta admit my sypathy goes to the wolves. I could understand how those who believe the haters .....are a bigger danger than a wolf itself. 

IMHO


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

fairfax1 said:


> 3Lunger & I often wear different colored jerseys on several of these wildlife issues.....however.....
> 
> He has offered perceptive thinking on this wolf issue. In another recent thread he made the comment that all of the "sss"-talk made the holders of such sentiments sound stupid. It hurts the cause.
> (In essence. ---- I didn't go back and find the quote).
> ...


"HATE" No matter HOW SMALL has been delivered by the system itself. WE WERE PROMISED ACTION when there were "200" Breeding pairs on the landscape.

THIS WAS 10 YEARS AGO!!!!

*WE WERE LIED TOO *

*I'll bet there would be no "hate" if delivered " as promised"!!!*

*Dave*


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I guess it is pretty easy to live in the LP and be pro wolf when you have lots of deer in your camps and backyards. Up until about 2002 we had loads of deer in the UP also. Now the UP has a total deer population of about 200,000. What will happen to the wolves when the deer population drops to about 50000? What are they going to eat? 
You don't think that Yoopers know about the wolf attack in Minnesota and Ontario. Both of these attacks were not all that far from the UP. 
I am not a big fan of SSS on the other hand I am not a fan of wolves either. As you can see by how the votes turned out the people who like wolves live in the LP and they do not have to worry about being armed when they go out into the woods. backyard, or fishing.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> I guess it is pretty easy to live in the LP and be pro wolf when you have lots of deer in your camps and backyards. Up until about 2002 we had loads of deer in the UP also. Now the UP has a total deer population of about 200,000. What will happen to the wolves when the deer population drops to about 50000? What are they going to eat?
> You don't think that Yoopers know about the wolf attack in Minnesota and Ontario. Both of these attacks were not all that far from the UP.
> I am not a big fan of SSS on the other hand I am not a fan of wolves either. As you can see by how the votes turned out the people who like wolves live in the LP and they do not have to worry about being armed when they go out into the woods. backyard, or fishing.


I didn't see a lot of deer this year but don't have the wolf excuse to fall back on. 
By the way, it's a good idea to be armed in many parts of the lower, too. Only I'll take a wolf over a crackhead any day! 

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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

triplelunger said:


> I didn't see a lot of deer this year but don't have the wolf excuse to fall back on.
> By the way, it's a good idea to be armed in many parts of the lower, too. Only I'll take a wolf over a crackhead any day!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I would prefer the opposite. With the crackhead, you'll know where he's at and where he's coming from. With a wolf, it'll be too late before you know.

http://www.arizonadailyindependent.com/2013/11/29/wolf-attacks-on-humans-in-north-america/


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Either you work for the DNR or somebody at the DNR pumped you full of their wolf BS. The reason that there are not as many deer in the UP is due to predators (wolves, coyotes, bear, & bobcat) throw in a couple of harder than normal winters also. When the wolves are not eating livestock and dogs they will take down a deer. 
Wolves will kill 20+ deer every year to eat. That does not include the deer killed when they train their young to hunt sometimes called a thrill kill. It also does not include the number of aborted fetuses due to winter stress from wolf packs chasing deer. 
Without wolf management (hunting) we are about a few years away from not being able to have a deer season in the UP. 
Believe it or not the deer season in the UP brings in an economic factor that some businesses absolutely need to get them by until winter settles in. The other economic factor in the UP is that many families rely on a sustenance lifestyle and need to place a couple of deer in their freezer. Apparently the sustenance lifestyle is something people who live in metropolis know little about.


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## Cod (Sep 14, 2014)

think like triplelunger, those anti-wolf hunting groups are passing their agenda with pure emotion. Why be the exact same!?!? use a scientific background (population control) as well, as your weapon and you should win any real argument with them. tackle things slowly, as there should be a wolf hunt. Votes are not clearly on your side, but you are getting a bit of what you want. Stay positive, things could change in your favor.


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## CHASINEYES (Jun 3, 2007)

Cod said:


> think like triplelunger, those anti-wolf hunting groups are passing their agenda with pure emotion. Why be the exact same!?!? use a scientific background (population control) as well, as your weapon and you should win any real argument with them. tackle things slowly, as there should be a wolf hunt. Votes are not clearly on your side, but you are getting a bit of what you want. Stay positive, things could change in your favor.


Not so sure you will any arguments with the HSUS type. While riding the school bus home, my neighbors anti-hunting 15 yr old son asked my son why anyone wants to kill deer, coyotes and wolves. He claimed that if hunters didn't kill deer, coyote and wolves, predator numbers would rise and in turn, would lower the deer population. As the deer population dropped so would predators. Sounded like a page right out of an HSUS book. Lol

Hunting and managing game populations doesn't mean s&*t to these people. Nature balances animal populations. They would be extremely happy if deer numbers were low enough to eliminate deer hunting seasons.....Anytime you see a wolf, just remember, they're a product of HSUS.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

CHASINEYES said:


> Not so sure you will any arguments with the HSUS type. While riding the school bus home, my neighbors anti-hunting 15 yr old son asked my son why anyone wants to kill deer, coyotes and wolves. He claimed that if hunters didn't kill deer, coyote and wolf numbers would rise and in turn, would lower the deer population. As the deer population dropped so would predators. Sounded like a page right out of an HSUS book. Lol
> 
> Hunting and managing game populations doesn't mean s&*t to these people. Nature balances animal populations. They would be extremely happy if deer numbers were low enough to eliminate deer hunting seasons.....Anytime you see a wolf, just remember, they're a product of HSUS.


It sounds like your saying nature does not balance animal populations?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

triplelunger said:


> It sounds like your saying nature does not balance animal populations?


It's a tough way to go, itching, starving and then freezing to death.

http://www.livescience.com/23048-yellowstone-wolves-hit-by-disease.html


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## bjacobs (Feb 8, 2007)

fairfax1 said:


> 3Lunger & I often wear different colored jerseys on several of these wildlife issues.....however.....
> 
> He has offered perceptive thinking on this wolf issue. In another recent thread he made the comment that all of the "sss"-talk made the holders of such sentiments sound stupid. It hurts the cause.
> (In essence. ---- I didn't go back and find the quote).
> ...


Great post


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

triplelunger said:


> It sounds like your saying nature does not balance animal populations?


Nature did balance the wolf population. As the human population grew the wolf population was reduced to a level acceptable by the existing balance of "nature". To introduce an artificial support structure for an alpha predator and then limit or stop the only alpha predator (man) capable of controlling it's population is a recipe for disaster in the long term. What happens when the food sources for the wolf are reduced or eliminated? Will the unchecked alpha predator then suffer starvation and illness until it's population is again reduced so the cycle can repeat itself or will the unchecked alpha predator choose another easy and readily available food source such as livestock, domesticated pets, MAN? Neither option is all that appealing to me. To think that the evolution and expansion of man is not part of nature and the predator check and balance system is in my opinion short sighted and not representative of history.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Robert Holmes said:


> I guess it is pretty easy to live in the LP and be pro wolf when you have lots of deer in your camps and backyards. Up until about 2002 we had loads of deer in the UP also. Now the UP has a total deer population of about 200,000. What will happen to the wolves when the deer population drops to about 50000? What are they going to eat?
> 
> You don't think that Yoopers know about the wolf attack in Minnesota and Ontario. Both of these attacks were not all that far from the UP.
> 
> I am not a big fan of SSS on the other hand I am not a fan of wolves either. As you can see by how the votes turned out the people who like wolves live in the LP and they do not have to worry about being armed when they go out into the woods. backyard, or fishing.



Where did you get the population estimate? It did not come from the DNR. They no longer provide population estimates. I know because I have had small face to face meetings with Russ Mason, Ashley Autenrieth, Terry Minzey and David Jentoft where I personally asked for a UP deer population estimate. These meetings happened within the last 30 days too. The DNR will only provide trend information.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Luv2hunteup said:


> Where did you get the population estimate? It did not come from the DNR. They no longer provide population estimates. I know because I have had small face to face meetings with Russ Mason, Ashley Autenrieth, Terry Minzey and David Jentoft where I personally asked for a UP deer population estimate. These meetings happened within the last 30 days too. The DNR will only provide trend information.


The number that they claim is around 600 but they know that was about 5 or more years ago, there are many more than that now.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12205-256981--,00.html

"How many gray wolves and eastern wolves are there in Michigan?
The Michigan DNR estimates the number of wolves in Michigan using a combination of radio-tracking and snow track surveys. These methods cannot distinguish between species, because species differences can only be detected through genetic analysis. Michigan's wolf population has a current minimum population estimate of 658.

Two recent genetics studies of wolves from across Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan found evidence for eastern wolves, gray wolves and their hybrids. Exact percentages of each species are complicated by the existence of hybrids, and vary from one study to the next. Regardless of genetics, wolves in Michigan fill the ecological roles of large canid: they form packs, defend territories, prey on deer and moose, and displace coyotes."



Maybe they are ashamed to say the numbers because they are grossly underestimating them?


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Freepop

Deer population not wolf population.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

According to the DNR wolf populations have began to level off. The published numbers are not estimates those numbers are unique animals plus the wolf population numbers do not include the young of the year. 

SSS is an opportunistic act with little population impact. The new thing that has been going on is Xylitol. It is available in every Walmart. It's used as a sweetener for humans but is deadly for canines.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

This is the one from Farm Bureau who puts it on the radio prior to every deer season how many deer there are prior to the hunting season. I would think that the UP deer population is probably closer to 300,000. It is possible that they get their numbers from the DNR somewhere. 
I think that the DNR does not want fish and wildlife population numbers out there because it would hurt license sales.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

This is what the pro wolf people do not realize. A wolf hunt keeps things managed and supervised by the DNR. It also creates a fund from the license sales that goes back into wolf management. It helps to control wolf populations in areas where there are some wolf issues as these wolves would be killed regardless if they had a season or not. 
In the UP the wolves are not winning any popularity contests and people are fed up with them. If we go another few years without wolf seasons people will start shooting them. Just like the commorants people got fed up with them and they started shooting them and still do. They are protected and they still get shot on a daily basis. Just a good guess but the fine for shooting a commorant is probably close to what the fine is for shooting a wolf. 
When wolves attack livestock the farmer is not always paid for the livestock and they don't always get paid true market value. When wolves attack pets the pet owner suffers 100 percent of the loss. Amazing as it may seem farmers and pet owners who have suffered losses have been pretty compliant with the laws. The DNR does give out depredation permits as they cannot watch every farm across the UP and it works.


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## 2508speed (Jan 6, 2011)

Robert Holmes said:


> This is what the pro wolf people do not realize. A wolf hunt keeps things managed and supervised by the DNR. It also creates a fund from the license sales that goes back into wolf management. It helps to control wolf populations in areas where there are some wolf issues as these wolves would be killed regardless if they had a season or not.
> In the UP the wolves are not winning any popularity contests and people are fed up with them. If we go another few years without wolf seasons people will start shooting them. Just like the commorants people got fed up with them and they started shooting them and still do. They are protected and they still get shot on a daily basis. Just a good guess but the fine for shooting a commorant is probably close to what the fine is for shooting a wolf.
> When wolves attack livestock the farmer is not always paid for the livestock and they don't always get paid true market value. When wolves attack pets the pet owner suffers 100 percent of the loss. Amazing as it may seem farmers and pet owners who have suffered losses have been pretty compliant with the laws. The DNR does give out depredation permits as they cannot watch every farm across the UP and it works.


If that's the case, when someone hits a deer with their car, the DNR should compensate them. Or at least time lost from their job while dealing with a totaled out car. I have seen comarants. I have not seen a wolf. We're all in this together. Yes I'm from the LP. Maybe the DNR should just let UP landowners and residents hunt wolves. No guests or guide services. In fact maybe even you should have a UP address on your ID! After all you don't want any LP influences up there, like our money!


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## 2508speed (Jan 6, 2011)

bjacobs said:


> Great post


I agree!!! Wolves deserve a place in Mi. I'm not an anti-hunter. I'm not pro-wolf, I'm not anti wolf.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

2508speed said:


> I agree!!! Wolves deserve a place in Mi. I'm not an anti-hunter. I'm not pro-wolf, I'm not anti wolf.



I'm all for wolves having a place in Michigan too. All you have to do is look at the recent vote. Transplant them from the counties who don't want them to the counties that do want them. Then revisit the issue in 30 years. A super majority of UP residents would agree.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

What people fail to mention on this site and some people fail to realize is that deer are a vital part of the economics of the Upper Peninsula. Many businesses rely on deer hunters to bring in business that gets them between fall and winter. The other economic factor is that we don't have a lot of $25 an hour jobs here with benefits. Many people have a subsidize their groceries with fish and game. Some of these people need to put a couple of deer in their freezer every winter. Throw a few hundred wolves into the equation that compete for the deer and people get pissed. The DNR of all people should realize this but a majority of them hunt on dreamland deer camps in the LP.
You pro wolf people can bring me a butchered side of beef and a butchered pig every year and I will gladly join your side. Until that happens I am going to be anti wolf. 
I do subsidize my grocery bill with venison and fish.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> What people fail to mention on this site and some people fail to realize is that deer are a vital part of the economics of the Upper Peninsula. Many businesses rely on deer hunters to bring in business that gets them between fall and winter. The other economic factor is that we don't have a lot of $25 an hour jobs here with benefits. Many people have a subsidize their groceries with fish and game. Some of these people need to put a couple of deer in their freezer every winter. Throw a few hundred wolves into the equation that compete for the deer and people get pissed. The DNR of all people should realize this but a majority of them hunt on dreamland deer camps in the LP.
> You pro wolf people can bring me a butchered side of beef and a butchered pig every year and I will gladly join your side. Until that happens I am going to be anti wolf.
> I do subsidize my grocery bill with venison and fish.


A side of beef and a pig?
How many deer do you shoot?:sly:

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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I love this site for the people who live in the LP who think that they invest so much money into the UP.:yikes::lol::lol: There are some people who do spend some money up here but a vast majority could use a can of WD-40 just to get their wallet out of their back pocket. It is not like people from the UP don't spend money in the LP either. I spend money on both sides of the bridge and don't complain or brag about it on any website.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I usually only get 1 deer per year. If I was a greedy hunter I could get 20+ deer per year all legally (my wife and son are tribal) throw in state tags and a couple of doe permits. I think that starving a wolf would be unethical and unsportsmanlike.


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## fairfax1 (Jun 12, 2003)

The _deer=supper _approach is a dog that wont hunt.

We will go down a way wrong track if comprehensive management of all of Michigans wildlife for all of Michigans residents must be subservient to the desire of a few for a venison burger.

Sure, wolves eat deer. And sure that competes with some hunters. So what? Resource managements role is not to provide a target-rich environment for deer hunters. Or to fill anyones freezers. 

I suspect that most of the angst/hatred for wolves is driven NOT by the fear that they will eat somebodys 7-yr old at the rural bus-stop.but rather is rooted in that sense of competition to deer-hunters. 

................................................................

And then this: "_You pro wolf people can bring me a butchered side of beef and a butchered pig every year and I will gladly join your side. Until that happens I am going to be anti wolf."_

First, who are you talkin' to? Virtually every poster on this thread who has not demonstrated hatred for wolves has emphatically asserted they support regulated hunting (and trapping) of wolves. So THAT makes them 'pro-wolf'? You are alienating those who can help you the most.

And about that pork & beef: Nobody on this forum owes you your supper. And The State of Michigan certainly doesn't owe you a deer for your freezer. 

Do you have a sense of entitlement that such is the case?


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> I usually only get 1 deer per year. If I was a greedy hunter I could get 20+ deer per year all legally (my wife and son are tribal) throw in state tags and a couple of doe permits. I think that starving a wolf would be unethical and unsportsmanlike.


You can shoot deer on someone else's tribal tags?

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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

triplelunger said:


> You can shoot deer on someone else's tribal tags?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Who says my wife and son don't hunt? Yes I can legally shoot 5 deer per year on my wife's tribal tags (i don't) she is handicapped. Why don't you complain about the 30 deer a single wolf kills every year?


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## North wind (Oct 19, 2009)

Short of aerial gunning and poison, wolves are here to stay. Open the season Oct. 15th and include trapping. Bad winters kill more deer than wolves.


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

fairfax1 said:


> The _deer=supper _approach is a dog that wont hunt.
> 
> We will go down a way wrong track if comprehensive management of all of Michigans wildlife for all of Michigans residents must be subservient to the desire of a few for a venison burger.
> 
> ...


Again down-state clueless...The _deer=supper _approach is a dog that wont hunt.

You have no-idea just how many here do need some venison to get along........There are the very dirt poor here.

If they don't do it themselves they rely on the "Hunters For The Hungry" program.

Which this program has all but vanished due to low deer numbers...In fact I have not heard one advertisement yet this year!

Last year I stopped donating because we shot very little here. 

This is direct knowledge with the Kiwanis programs we run.........

Dave


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Check all 3000+ of my posts on this site I don't brag about how I killed 5+ deer. I also don't brag about how my boat landed 15 walleyes or 25 salmon. I bought a single deer license this year and 0 doe permits. I do hunt and fish for food like many other people on this site and see absolutely nothing wrong with it. 
What I was trying to get across to people on my post is that there are some people in the UP that absolutely need to put venison in their freezer or go hungry. I know some of you wealthy people with the silver spoon don't believe that. I have lived in the UP for 30 years I happen to know how it is up here.


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

North wind said:


> Short of aerial gunning and poison, wolves are here to stay. Open the season Oct. 15th and include trapping. Bad winters kill more deer than wolves.


NOT ANYMORE............This winter WILL NOT kill more than wolves.....But I will let you tell me why..........To see if you "get it"

Dave


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> Who says my wife and son don't hunt? Yes I can legally shoot 5 deer per year on my wife's tribal tags (i don't) she is handicapped. Why don't you complain about the 30 deer a single wolf kills every year?


Relax. I was honestly curious. Sorry

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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

North wind said:


> Short of aerial gunning and poison, wolves are here to stay. Open the season Oct. 15th and include trapping. Bad winters kill more deer than wolves.


I have not seen a winter killed carcass in over 15 years. The reason is that wolves and coyotes get them before they have a chance to starve to death.


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## North wind (Oct 19, 2009)

Midalake said:


> NOT ANYMORE............This winter WILL NOT kill more than wolves.....But I will let you tell me why..........To see if you "get it"
> 
> Dave



The left over deer will have less competition for food and the wolves will be hungry...


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

North wind said:


> The left over deer will have less competition for food and the wolves will be hungry...


Close and part of it, since you gave me a good effort here is the correct answer.

Right now it is simple math..."carrying capacity" There is not one area North of US 2 that is even close as to what the "land can carry" 

So in other words deer are not even able to run themselves out of available forage.

I use this example to try to educate: It could be 60 degrees out this entire winter and we will have less deer on 11-13-15 than today 11-13-14.

So if you do not like what is happening this year....wait till next year!!!

Dave


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Have a warm winter with little or no snow and see how many coyotes and wolves resort to killing livestock or starve.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

fairfax1 said:


> The &#8216;_deer=supper&#8217; _approach is a dog that won&#8217;t hunt.
> 
> We will go down a way wrong track if comprehensive management of all of Michigan&#8217;s wildlife for all of Michigan&#8217;s residents must be subservient to the desire of a few for a venison burger.
> 
> ...


In Bio's opinion, you must keep the alpha predator (man) happy


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

FREEPOP said:


> In Bio's opinion, you must keep the alpha predator (man) happy


I think that the reasoning for the change in hunting license structure and fees is due in part to the lack of hunting license sales. When I bought my license (in the UP) the agent said that they only sold a couple of the double licenses all fall. If you are in the business of selling deer licenses then you have to provide deer. The DNR fails to realize that you can't plant grass on a goat farm. 
It is either wolves or deer you really can't have both. The people who like wolves don't give a hoot about the deer. The people who like deer don't give a hoot about the wolves. When there are few deer more people hate the wolves.
Right now there are few deer in the UP and many wolves.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Robert Holmes said:


> I think that the reasoning for the change in hunting license structure and fees is due in part to the lack of hunting license sales. When I bought my license (in the UP) the agent said that they only sold a couple of the double licenses all fall. If you are in the business of selling deer licenses then you have to provide deer. The DNR fails to realize that you can't plant grass on a goat farm.
> It is either wolves or deer you really can't have both. The people who like wolves don't give a hoot about the deer. The people who like deer don't give a hoot about the wolves. When there are few deer more people hate the wolves.
> Right now there are few deer in the UP and many wolves.


It was one of his justifications for APRs. I was being sarcastic.

I agree, way more money is made off deer than wolves.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

FREEPOP said:


> It was one of his justifications for APRs. I was being sarcastic.
> 
> I agree, way more money is made off deer than wolves.


According to Jennifer Granholmthe tourists would be lined up all of the way to Gaylord waiting to cross the Mackinac Bridge to see wolves. :lol::lol::lol:The wolves would be waiting at the bridge to greet them and pose for photographs.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Robert Holmes said:


> According to Jennifer Granholmthe tourists would be lined up all of the way to Gaylord waiting to cross the Mackinac Bridge to see wolves. :lol::lol::lol:The wolves would be waiting at the bridge to greet them and pose for photographs.


Now that you mention it, a selfie with a wolf needs to be on my bucket list


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> I think that the reasoning for the change in hunting license structure and fees is due in part to the lack of hunting license sales. When I bought my license (in the UP) the agent said that they only sold a couple of the double licenses all fall. If you are in the business of selling deer licenses then you have to provide deer. The DNR fails to realize that you can't plant grass on a goat farm.
> It is either wolves or deer you really can't have both. The people who like wolves don't give a hoot about the deer. The people who like deer don't give a hoot about the wolves. When there are few deer more people hate the wolves.
> Right now there are few deer in the UP and many wolves.


How did those poor deer ever survive before we came along to save them from the big bad wolf?


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## itchn2fish (Dec 15, 2005)

robert holmes said:


> according to jennifer granholmthe tourists would be lined up all of the way to gaylord waiting to cross the mackinac bridge to see wolves. :lol::lol::lol:the wolves would be waiting at the bridge to greet them and pose for photographs.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

triplelunger said:


> How did those poor deer ever survive before we came along to save them from the big bad wolf?


You have been out of the UP way too long lunger. The wolves will survive with or without the deer thus the reason that they are an apex predator. The deer on the other hand would do much better without the wolves. It won't be too long before a few packs get established in the NLP and the elk become wolf burgers. When that happens more people will be taking my side.
It can happen and it will happen no doubt. Eventually they will work their way south or north out of Illinois. Pretty soon your dreamland deer camp will have wolves munching on your tasty deer. Your property values will drop while your taxes go up. :yikes::yikes::yikes: I will go to MS and you will be ***ching about the deer eating critters in your backyard. I will be at my computer:lol::lol::lol:my **** off.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> You have been out of the UP way too long lunger. The wolves will survive with or without the deer thus the reason that they are an apex predator. The deer on the other hand would do much better without the wolves. It won't be too long before a few packs get established in the NLP and the elk become wolf burgers. When that happens more people will be taking my side.
> It can happen and it will happen no doubt. Eventually they will work their way south or north out of Illinois. Pretty soon your dreamland deer camp will have wolves munching on your tasty deer. Your property values will drop while your taxes go up. :yikes::yikes::yikes: I will go to MS and you will be ***ching about the deer eating critters in your backyard. I will be at my computer:lol::lol::lol:my **** off.


PLANET OF THE APES (1968) - Lady Liberty Destroyed: 




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## bjacobs (Feb 8, 2007)

Robert Holmes said:


> The deer on the other hand would do much better without the wolves.


Are you talking about overall herd health or herd population? One could argue that the wolves do much more for overall herd health than hunters do. They prey primarily on the weakest, strengthening the herd as a whole, where we as hunters try to prey on the oldest and strongest. If you are talking about overall deer numbers then I would agree with you.


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

bjacobs said:


> Are you talking about overall herd health or herd population? One could argue that the wolves do much more for overall herd health than hunters do. They prey primarily on the weakest, strengthening the herd as a whole, where we as hunters try to prey on the oldest and strongest. If you are talking about overall deer numbers then I would agree with you.



"They prey primarily on the weakest"

*NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!*

If I hear this one more time I am going to PUKE!!!!

Dave


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Midalake said:


> "They prey primarily on the weakest"
> 
> *NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!*
> 
> ...


Tell me about it. A new study out of YNP said they hunt according to their pack size not by the weakest or oldest or whatever. They are animals of opportunistic needs and kill what ever is in front of their nose at the time.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

bjacobs said:


> Are you talking about overall herd health or herd population? One could argue that the wolves do much more for overall herd health than hunters do. They prey primarily on the weakest, strengthening the herd as a whole, where we as hunters try to prey on the oldest and strongest. If you are talking about overall deer numbers then I would agree with you.


That is some of the BS that the DNR has been trying to tell people for the last 30 years to promote wolves.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> That is some of the BS that the DNR has been trying to tell people for the last 30 years to promote wolves.


What could the DNR tell you that you would not consider BS? I think if they called the sky blue, you'd put on your red glasses. 

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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

The DNR needs to prove to people that the Western Grey Wolf is not an invasive species to the Great Lake States. If it is an invasive species then there is no need to protect them at all. I believe at one time there were wolves in Michigan but it is possible that they were of the eastern variety. Nothing that I have read indicates that the wolves once found in Michigan were the wolves that we now have.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> The DNR needs to prove to people that the Western Grey Wolf is not an invasive species to the Great Lake States. If it is an invasive species then there is no need to protect them at all. I believe at one time there were wolves in Michigan but it is possible that they were of the eastern variety. Nothing that I have read indicates that the wolves once found in Michigan were the wolves that we now have.


Prove that we have the same sub species of white-tailed deer we had 100 years ago. 

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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

:lol::lol:Good Morning lunger, are you drinking strong Java or Kool Aid with extra sugar this morning? I figured you would be at your dreamland deer camp by now. Of course the one without wolves. No worry, they will be there for you soon. Good luck with the hunting.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

In all seriousness, good luck to you as well Mr. Holmes. 

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## Rocko0305 (Sep 24, 2008)

Just got a chance to read this whole thread. Very interesting discussion to say the least.

Here is what I think, for any one who will care.

There is no doubt a major wolf problem, and a quota of 40 each year is just simply not enough. The DNR needs to get their act together, stay true to their promises of having a wolf population around 600, and allow trapping. After seeing the results in Minnesota and Wisconsin, I simply don't understand what is wrong with Michigan when it comes to proper MANAGEMENT of this species.

Wolves only kill more deer in the U.P. than winter does if the winter is mild. A mild winter roughly kills 35,000 deer in the U.P. An average winter will kill 75,000. Let's say there are 2,000 wolves in the U.P., and every single one kills 30 deer per year, then that is 60,000. So, that would be a kill total between a mild winter and an average winter. Also, when there is a severe winter, it just compounds the wolf/predator problem or vice versa. My point is not to diminish the damage that wolves due to the deer herd, I am just stating a severe winter does more damage than anything. I am a numbers guy, so I will just say that the deer population on 11/15/14 compared to 11/15/15 will be largely based upon the winter severity more than anything. But there is still a predator problem that must be addressed that is compounding things no doubt. The problem is that if the U.P. is lucky enough to get a mild winter, then the wolf population stifles much of the expected rebound the herd would expect to have seen in the past. 

And of course wolves do go after the weakest much of the time, but there is no way you can tell me that they do 100% of the time. How many pictures of wolves or coyotes taking down healthy and mature bucks or does do I need to post here to prove that argument wrong?

Although I am from the LP, I hunt a lot in the UP. I do think though that the LP voters should not even have a say on this issue. They have no clue for the most part.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

I hope everyone that has concerns leaves comments and takes the survey currently available on the DNR website. I did, and I suggested a trapping season after the firearms season. I also suggested that the season continue into the time that deer will be in yards... among other things. My voice is small, but everyone concerned should let theirs be heard. I still have many friends in the UP, and want to be part of an intelligent solution. 

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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

triplelunger said:


> I hope everyone that has concerns leaves comments and takes the survey currently available on the DNR website. I did, and I suggested a trapping season after the firearms season. I also suggested that the season continue into the time that deer will be in yards... among other things. My voice is small, but everyone concerned should let theirs be heard. I still have many friends in the UP, and want to be part of an intelligent solution.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app



We have been passing the survey to every camp we have visited. The most common suggestion is to trap and transfer wolves to the SLP. It is a game rich environment that is close to their base of support. They should survive well and should meet many of the DNR goals. Everyone can thank Jill Fritz for her efforts. 

If you are at camp in the UP make sure you share the link to Survey Monkey.


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

Rocko0305 said:


> Just got a chance to read this whole thread. Very interesting discussion to say the least.
> 
> Here is what I think, for any one who will care.
> 
> ...


Well thought out post Rocko since you have not been involved since 1994 I have a couple of adjustments.....

1. Your "Winter Kill" numbers are way too high for the current population of the heard....... No matter what kind of winter we have.

2. Your "weakest" theory is completely wrong.....Read more and you will find it has to do with the number of wolves that engage a deer. 1 @ 40% success to [email protected] 100% mortality. ALL factored with "healthy" deer.

3. It is *VERY UNTIMELY *of the last two winters. I think it *GREATLY MASKS *what is happening. I have this to equate it too

Winters 2013 and 2014 both tough winters and yes the result was lees deer a given...*RIGHT??* 

Winters of 2010, 2011, 2012.........*ALL VERY MILD YET*......ALL were years with a *DECREASE* of the overall deer numbers in the UP...WHY how could this happen>>> *WE SHOULD OF HAD NET INCREASES!!!* 

Since your a numbers guy consider this....Vehicles, Winter, Hunters, WOLVES.......

No matter what happens we have hit "*UNSUSTAINABILITY" [of our current deer numbers and current factors]*

To back this up have one little task I ask you to spend some time on before you respond.......The amount of Whitetail's Per Square Mile *BEFORE* Wolves would show stress or signs of wolf mortality  

Dave

Regardless of this winter there will be LESS deer on 11-14-15 than today 11-14-14 in the UP as a whole...... 

Ps Change This 

"And of course wolves do go after the weakest much of the time"

TO of course the weakest have no chance against a wolf.


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## Rocko0305 (Sep 24, 2008)

Midalake said:


> Well thought out post Rocko since you have not been involved since 1994 I have a couple of adjustments.....
> 
> 1. Your "Winter Kill" numbers are way too high for the current population of the heard....... No matter what kind of winter we have.
> 
> ...


Dave,

Hoping to give you a well thought out post again, since your responses have me somewhat confused. I agree with you on 90-95% of what I have seen you post in the past related to this issue, so I just want that to be made clear....That is why I am confused that you sound like you disagree with me on the points I was making.

First, you mention that I have not been involved since 1994 because I previously mentioned in another post that I have only been hunting in Dickinson County since 2009. While that is true to a certain extent, I feel I should clarify. My dad and a friend of ours have been hunting up there pretty much every year since 1991. The friend's dad that we talk to quite often has been hunting up there since the '70s, so while I have not been there, I do have their trustworthy perspectives to rely on and help inform me. That doesn't make me an expert or make me know more than someone else, I just want to let you know the background I have in terms of coming to the conclusions, solutions, opinions etc. that I have.

Next, the winter kill numbers. I can't find the link right now, but those are from the DNR. Disagree with the actual numbers if you would like, but the point I was trying to make lies more in the % of the population as a whole. So, essentially, a mild winter would kill 15-20% of the population, an average winter 35-40%, and a severe winter up to 60%. Those figures are based on a total U.P. population of 200,000 deer. Are you saying the U.P. deer population is much less than 200,000? Not trying to start an argument, I am just wondering why you felt the need to address that part of my post because I thought the winter kill rates were common knowledge and agreed upon for the most part.

Next, I am not sure why you state that my "weakest theory is wrong". We agree here lol!....I agree with you in the fact that as more wolves are engaged that their kill success rate goes way up, and is at 100% when there are 5 or more wolves. That is the EXACT point I was making.....when I said that I have seen pictures and videos where there are multiple wolves or even coyotes taking down healthy mature bucks. I was responding to another poster who said that the wolves ONLY go after the weakest of the herd, and my response was to say that of course they target the weakest in certain circumstances, but it's asinine to say that they always do because that is just not true. A pack of 5+ hungry wolves are going to take down a healthy and mature buck or doe if they see it, they are not going to pass it over just because it isn't "weak". So again, we agree here, so that is why I was confused by your response to my post.

I don't disagree with your comment about the the last 2 severe winters being "untimely" and "masking the issue" either. What I am saying though, is that I believe that the severe winters COMPOUND the wolf issue (and overall predation problem). As we all know, the deep snow doesn't affect the wolves like it does the deer, and I believe they are able to kill even more deer during a severe winter than a mild or average one. 

In regards why after mild winters there would be decreases in the U.P. deer herd, I thought I somewhat addressed that by stating, _"The problem is that if the U.P. is lucky enough to get a mild winter, then the wolf population stifles much of the expected rebound the herd would expect to have seen in the past." _

As far as there being less deer at this time next year, I never said I disagreed on that point, and I think you have valid reasons for stating why there will be less next year. I just said that I think it largely depends on the winter severity (including late springs) more than anything else. Again though, I will state that I think there are wolf, coyote, and habitat problems that only serve to make the average and severe winters even worse than they ever have been in the past. So, based on the fact that the herd's recovery is stifled even after a mild winter, and we just had 2 consecutive severe winters, I believe I can confidently say that there will be less deer in the U.P. at this time next year too. If the heard is to successfully rebound the prior levels where many hunters were happy, then not only do the wolf, coyote, and habitat problems need to be addressed by the DNR, but we also do need multiple and preferable consecutive mild/average winters.

In regards to this:

_Ps Change This 

"And of course wolves do go after the weakest much of the time"

TO of course the weakest have no chance against a wolf_

Another reason why I was confused by your post. I'm unsure if you are attacking me or why you felt the need to correct me, but the Internet leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to trying to interpret the tone in which someone is writing something. But for what it's worth, I agree with you that the weakest have no chance against a wolf....

So all in all, those are my opinions summarized, and I think Dave we really agree on 90+% of things related to the U.P. deer population and the effects of wolves, the DNR's failure to properly address the issue, etc.

I think the only area where I have seen us disagree is in regards to your stance that bowhunters should not be allowed to shoot does in areas without doe tags.

One other thing to add...There is no doubt that the herd population is down, but let's try not to cloud our personal success/disappointments and extrapolate that to everywhere else. My group saw more deer and bigger bucks this year than any year since 2009, and from the posts I have read of his, Mr. Fsych is having great success in the Western U.P. too. That doesn't make me think it's that way everywhere for everyone else, nor do I think that someone who hunted in the U.P. and isn't seeing any deer should immediately think that we are at a point of no return and the population is in dire straits everywhere else because it obviously isn't. What it sounds like is the impact the wolves are making are somewhat localized. You just better hope those wolves don't make it to your area though. As I previously mentioned, one of my best spots for quantity of deer and big bucks in the past produced nothing on camera or from the stand this year. It is the same spot that my dad saw 3 wolves run underneath my tree stand 2 years ago, and this year we had more wolf and coyote scat sightings than deer poop sightings. Needless to say, I pulled my stand from that area.

Interested in hearing your response, and also interested if you or anyone else has any good links to sources on the U.P. deer population over time.


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## 2508speed (Jan 6, 2011)

Luv2hunteup said:


> We have been passing the survey to every camp we have visited. The most common suggestion is to trap and transfer wolves to the SLP. It is a game rich environment that is close to their base of support. They should survive well and should meet many of the DNR goals. Everyone can thank Jill Fritz for her efforts.
> 
> If you are at camp in the UP make sure you share the link to Survey Monkey.


Once they trap and transfer the wolves, they should drop a few off in Cherry country where they are complaining about deer rubbing their antlers on cherry trees. When the deer are under control by wolf predation, the wolf will naturally move a bit south to Crawford and take care of some of those damn coyotes I hear and see everytime I'm deer hunting! Nature is a beautiful thing. You guys in the UP don't know how good you have it. Now if you would stop taking all our hard earned wages to pay your welfare! Better yet secede! Let the Native Americans pay your wages!:lol:


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

Rocko

There is no "tone" and it is hard to "internet" complicated problems. Yes we do agree mostly on all......

Did you get to some work on this question ????

To back this up have one little task I ask you to spend some time on before you respond.......The amount of Whitetail's Per Square Mile BEFORE Wolves would show stress or signs of wolf mortality.

Dave


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

2508speed said:


> Once they trap and transfer the wolves, they should drop a few off in Cherry country where they are complaining about deer rubbing their antlers on cherry trees. When the deer are under control by wolf predation, the wolf will naturally move a bit south to Crawford and take care of some of those damn coyotes I hear and see everytime I'm deer hunting! Nature is a beautiful thing. You guys in the UP don't know how good you have it. Now if you would stop taking all our hard earned wages to pay your welfare! Better yet secede! Let the Native Americans pay your wages!:lol:


????? I read what you say all the time, but sometimes you really stick your foot in your mouth just shy of an ***** whoopin'.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Your comments are offensive. I know many people in the UP that work more hours in a week than you work in a month. It seems to me that we lost a mackinac bridge repair grant ($5 million a year) to fix potholes in your pavement paradise. That was federal money by the way. As far as I am concerned the money goes both ways. That is unless it is DNR money and most of that stays in the LP.


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## Musket (May 11, 2009)

Ok, one thing is for sure. These uncalled for potshots at one another has to stop. I am not sure just where anyone would think that welfare and the recipients of it could possibly have to do with wolf management. The last time I took a look at the map it was still called Michigan and I believe it still is.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Some people just don't understand nature. Allow me to explain how it works up here. A severe winter is good for the predator population. The deer yard up and wolves or coyotes push them. Constant running through deep snow causes them to burn more calories than they can take in. None of them will starve but when they get too weak to fend off the predators they are an easy meal. I have not found a deer carcass from a deer that has starved to death up here in years. Winter kill just does not exist up here anymore. It probably does if you are in an area with an extremely low predator population.


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## Musket (May 11, 2009)

Correct on all accounts. Much thrill killing takes place at this time.


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## yooperkenny (Jul 13, 2004)

Robert Holmes said:


> Your comments are offensive. ....


Yeah, that gets old fast and is just ignorant. Medical centers and community hospitals, schools and universities, many other professions and skilled trades all support the logging and mining that's been here for so long - plenty of work for motivated, ambitious folks.

BTW watched a lone wolf cruise through my shooting lane up in Houghton Co about three weeks ago; our camp killed a nice buck in that same spot opening morning.

We should take some solace from knowing that legal wolf management is finally on the way, hopefully with trapping. Meanwhile, if you're not seeing deer, you're simply in a bad pocket and need to move! Good Luck to all - things are just starting as far as I'm concerned!


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

yooperkenny said:


> Yeah, that gets old fast and is just ignorant. Medical centers and community hospitals, schools and universities, many other professions and skilled trades all support the logging and mining that's been here for so long - plenty of work for motivated, ambitious folks.
> 
> BTW watched a lone wolf cruise through my shooting lane up in Houghton Co about three weeks ago; our camp killed a nice buck in that same spot opening morning.
> 
> We should take some solace from knowing that legal wolf management is finally on the way, hopefully with trapping. Meanwhile, if you're not seeing deer, you're simply in a bad pocket and need to move! Good Luck to all - things are just starting as far as I'm concerned!


You're insane! Deer and wolves cannot coexist. 

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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

There are areas that wolves do not go into. Wolf packs protect these areas and will kill any lone wolves that go into or near these areas. Coyotes will inhabit these areas but they too will be hunted down by the wolves for going into the forbidden area. You either do your homework and find one of these areas or get lucky and find one. Once you find one you will see plenty of deer because they know that for the most part they are safe. I have found a few of these spots in Mackinac County and have never seen any sign of a wolf in the area. Plenty of deer and a lack of hunters too.


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## triplelunger (Dec 21, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> There are areas that wolves do not go into. Wolf packs protect these areas and will kill any lone wolves that go into or near these areas. Coyotes will inhabit these areas but they too will be hunted down by the wolves for going into the forbidden area. You either do your homework and find one of these areas or get lucky and find one. Once you find one you will see plenty of deer because they know that for the most part they are safe. I have found a few of these spots in Mackinac County and have never seen any sign of a wolf in the area. Plenty of deer and a lack of hunters too.


What?...

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## fairfax1 (Jun 12, 2003)

From YooperK: _"We should take some solace from knowing that legal wolf management is finally on the way, hopefully with trapping.
_

Thank you, YK. A spot-on observation.


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## StumpHunter (Oct 23, 2014)

triplelunger said:


> What?...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Read a scientific article a few years ago from Minnesota. It cited "neutral zones". Not solitary wolves nor coyotes. But, yes, neutral zones for deer the wolves left alone. Will take some time to search internets for said article. It has been a few years since I read the article/journal/publication.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

yooperkenny said:


> Yeah, that gets old fast and is just ignorant. Medical centers and community hospitals, schools and universities, many other professions and skilled trades all support the logging and mining that's been here for so long - plenty of work for motivated, ambitious folks.
> 
> BTW watched a lone wolf cruise through my shooting lane up in Houghton Co about three weeks ago; our camp killed a nice buck in that same spot opening morning.
> 
> We should take some solace from knowing that legal wolf management is finally on the way, hopefully with trapping. Meanwhile, if you're not seeing deer, you're simply in a bad pocket and need to move! Good Luck to all - things are just starting as far as I'm concerned!



A more trapper friendly wildlife chief may be needed


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## fairfax1 (Jun 12, 2003)

_*"A more trapper friendly wildlife chief may be needed."*_

Now there is an observation that begs for explanation.

From what I've read of the wildlife chief he seems pretty knowledgeable about predator management; and has been a vocal and energetic proponent of managing wolves through lethal means.
................................................................................

_"From 1995 to 2001, Mason served as a supervisory research biologist for the USDA Wildlife Services in Logan, Utah, where he was the administrator of the Utah State University Field Station of the National Wildlife Research Center, *focusing on predator ecology and predation management. "
*_

And this link to an editorial response he penned seems particularly revealing:

http://www.mlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2013/12/guest_column_setting_the_story.html


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

fairfax1 said:


> _*"A more trapper friendly wildlife chief may be needed."*_
> 
> Now there is an observation that begs for explanation.
> 
> ...


Trapper friendly, are the operative words in his statement.


Trapping is a very touchy subject and the abilities of a person performing it are hindered by by the rules and the hindering will continue to escalate until trapping is no more. Most likely not in my lifetime but the trend is evident.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

FREEPOP said:


> Trapper friendly, are the operative words in his statement.
> 
> 
> Trapping is a very touchy subject and the abilities of a person performing it are hindered by by the rules and the hindering will continue to escalate until trapping is no more. Most likely not in my lifetime but the trend is evident.


Agreed.
Was there not a thread showcasing how the current chief treated trapping/ trappers when asked by the NRC as to what role it should play in wolf management a year or two ago?


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

wintrrun said:


> Agreed.
> Was there not a thread showcasing how the current chief treated trapping/ trappers when asked by the NRC as to what role it should play in wolf management a year or two ago?


While there have been some opportunities afforded to trappers, it is a highly political and social issue that, in the end, is trending to shackle their abilities.

It seems I remember something, if I get a chance, I'll have to do some searching. Beaverhunter2 would probably have been involved in the discussion as he was president last.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

It's in the "Russ Mason article MON" in the trapping archives.
Hartman references it in post 24.
Thought someone else brought it up in another thread as well.


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## fairfax1 (Jun 12, 2003)

I took the poster Wntrn's direction and went to the Trapping archives to see the thread he referenced. 

_"Russ Mason's article in MON
Just wondering what everyone thought of the article." _

A dead-end. Some overwrought trappers complaining that they haven't....so far.....gotten their way. And, no suprise, the predictable critic, Swampbuck, weighing in again with unsupported unarticulated beefs against DNR brass. This time the head of the wildlife division.

As far as the "_articl in MON"...._even when directly asked by a poster to quote from it or link to it.....so that readers could judge for themselves....nothing came forth.

It was a thread mostly of verbal-enemas.....not substance.

So, I would say to poster Wintrun, if you are using that thread as a credible reference to a position. A little more due diligence would be appropriate.

......................

And to the posterwhose post I originally noted: 
"_Now there is an observation that begs for explanation." _

No explanation has been offered. To date.


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## wintrrun (Jun 11, 2008)

fairfax1 said:


> I took the poster Wntrn's direction and went to the Trapping archives to see the thread he referenced.
> 
> _"Russ Mason's article in MON
> Just wondering what everyone thought of the article." _
> ...


Sorry for wasting your time, FF.
As I stated its not the only time the subject of the trappers /Mason relationship came up in these forums.
Perhaps someone with more skin in the game and first hand face to face knowledge will chime in on the matter so you can give it a look see and get going on the next FF Review.
Just consider the matter closed til that post.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

wintrrun said:


> Sorry for wasting your time, FF.
> 
> As I stated its not the only time the subject of the trappers /Mason relationship came up in these forums.
> 
> ...



I'll try to remember to give Russ a call when I get back from camp.


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## Patman75 (Jan 11, 2012)

From the recent CO reports. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/9-28-14__10-11-14_474395_7.pdf Page 2

_



CO Jason Wicklund was working when he came across a bear hunter who had just had his dog killed by wolves. CO Doug Hermanson was in the area and came to assist with the investigation. The bear hunter informed the COs that he also had another dog killed by wolves two weeks prior in the same area. As the COs were finishing their investigation, Sgt. Marc Pomroy called to inform the COs that another dog was missing a few miles north of where they were. The COs responded to assist a bird hunter in looking for his dog, which according to the hunter had encountered a pack of dogs just prior to disappearing. After two hours of searching the dog was not located.

Click to expand...

_


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