# English Setter Stud



## OnPoint

Hi all, I have been a long time reader but have never posted before. I am looking for a stud for my English Setter. I live in the Gladwin area, any information or help would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## RecurveRx

Can you tell us about your bitch and what you're looking for in a litter?


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## OnPoint

She is a 40 lb tri-color setter, her background does have CH Tekoa Mountain Sunrise, CH Guy Begone, and CH Body Guard to name a few. I am looking for a litter that will perform well in the grouse woods. I do prefer tri-colors, but that is secondary to the performance of the dog. I have never had a dog bred before, so I am new to this.


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## Setter

My brother has a beautiful 2 year old blue belton that weigh 70 pounds that has Old Hemlock/Ryman/Pinecoble blood lines, but I don't think that those are the blood lines that you are looking for.
Buddy came from my breeding two years ago and has a great classic block setter head who hunts close, 50-75 yards, not a dot on the horizon.


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## OnPoint

That sounds like something I would be interested in. Is there a reason why Old Hemlock/Ryman/Pinecoble would not be a good fit?


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## FindTheBird

You live within a stone's throw of possibly the most esteemed grouse field trial grounds in the country with setters from all over the grouse states making an appearance there. If you can wait until Spring, you'll have a excellent opportunity to actually see in action (and shop) a ton of the best setter studs in the nation.


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## OnPoint

Yes, I am very fortunate to be close to the field trial grounds, I have been to Scott Chaffee"s house in the past, I hear he is a great trainer, maybe I will try to contact him as well.


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## RecurveRx

Good plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## midwestfisherman

Did your bitch come from Bruce Minard?


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## Bobby

midwestfisherman said:


> Did your bitch come from Bruce Minard?


Don't you have a job to due (sic)? :lol:


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## midwestfisherman

Bobby said:


> Don't you have a job to due (sic)? :lol:


Multitasking!


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## Bobby

OnPoint said:


> I do prefer tri-colors, but that is secondary to the performance of the dog. .


I think color and markings shuld be last on any list. Multiple colors have no influence on bird finding, biddability (is that a word?), handling or any of the qualities that one needs in a bird dog.

With that said I like 'em white and with orange ticking. :corkysm55


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## OnPoint

She was a gift from my parents, the owner of the dam is Dan Winans, the owner of sire is Jim Harris. Sire= HiFive's Magical Merlin; Dam= Lasalle's Lady Kira.


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## Worm Dunker

[/IMG]

This might be more dog than your looking for but he is the son of 6XCh. ShaddyHills Billy the only dog that has won the Mi. Woodcock Ch. twice. Hunter sired two litters last year one litter die due to infection in mother that transfered to pups. The other litter has produced 3 different puppy that has wins at Gladwin Field Trials. Hunter is a second year(will be 4 in Jan.)shooting dog he ran all the Champions trials(wild bird) this year in Mi. Ny. Pa. R.I. and got one third place at Long Pond Ny. If interested call Rich Foster DunnRoven Kennels Roscommon Mi.


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## RecurveRx

Foster?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## midwestfisherman

OnPoint said:


> She was a gift from my parents, the owner of the dam is Dan Winans, the owner of sire is Jim Harris. Sire= HiFive's Magical Merlin; Dam= Lasalle's Lady Kira.


That's a very well bred dog!


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## Mike McDonald

Lots of good options. I don't think you could go wrong with Rich Hollister's dog. I do have a proven male that is a Pinecoble dog. He weighs 48 lbs and has plenty of run probably more than some hunters would want. I kept 2 of his pups and they are a little closer and easier to handle. I'm breeding him this winter to a dog from Kentucky and a dog or two in Minnesota. He is an orange and white dog. He holds his tail at about 10 oclock so no trials for him but I have killed lots of grouse in front of his points. There are lots of excellent dog people on this board and I'm sure you will end up fine. My dog would be a big outcross for you and I'm not sure that's the best option. Mike"Find the Bird"'s advise is great. Lots of great dogs and lots of great people. Good Luck mac mcd


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## dogwhistle

why not just buy a pup from a well bred litter? you will find that selling pups is not what it is cracked up to be, especially if you are not a well known trialer . and you could end up with a big litter with 2 or 3 that dont sell.

i've bred cattle, horses,sheep and dogs. i'll never breed another dog. i have a couple of very nice females by ch. sires but they have both been spayed.

grouse river is advertising pups next jan out of a repeat- ch. sire. there is a picture of one of those pups on this forum somewhere. i've only seen pictures of two them but they both were classly looking dogs.


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## Scott Berg

OnPoint said:


> That sounds like something I would be interested in. Is there a reason why Old Hemlock/Ryman/Pinecoble would not be a good fit?


They are two so completely different dogs that breeding the two of them together would be the equivalent of cross breeding two different breeds. They appeal to two completely different audiences. If I were to generalize, grouse trailers, most of the grouse guides I know and a subsection of grouse hunters place a considerable emphasis on the dogs physical stature and gait being ideally suited for the obstacle course that is the grouse woods. Again in general terms, they look for a 43-48 lbs male and 37-40 lbs female (+/- 2-3 lbs) on both sexes. That group looks at the woods as an obstacle course and selects a very fleet footed dog that can move swiftly through the woods and cover a lot of ground. They see the best athlete for the job as Barry Sanders. If you like basketball, a Point Gaurd or Shooting Gaurd

Others prefer a slow moving dog that they can see at all times and is almost always in shotgun range and the handle can get to them quickly on point. Of course, this varies a fair amount. Male Rymans range from the 50 to 70+. I have seen Mike's 48 lb dog and he is definitely one of the best moving Rymans I have seen. Anytime you approach even 60 lbs in a male setter you are talking about a very different animal in terms of athleticism and how that dog will need to function in the woods and when you talk about 70 lbs the athletic analogies are VERY different. 

Before anyone gets up in arms &#8230; Choose what you will. The world would be a really boring place if we all liked the same things. My point is simply these two dogs makes absolutely NO sense being bred together.

SRB


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## kellyM87

I have a male who is a grandson of Tekoa Mountain Sunrise, brother to Tekoa Mountain Jettsun, He could be an option when he gets older (he is only 7 months old.) he has the most beautiful point and loves to find birds.


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## crosswind

Scott Berg said:


> They are two so completely different dogs that breeding the two of them together would be the equivalent of cross breeding two different breeds. They appeal to two completely different audiences. If I were to generalize, grouse trailers, most of the grouse guides I know and a subsection of grouse hunters place a considerable emphasis on the dogs physical stature and gait being ideally suited for the obstacle course that is the grouse woods. Again in general terms, they look for a 43-48 lbs male and 37-40 lbs female (+/- 2-3 lbs) on both sexes. That group looks at the woods as an obstacle course and selects a very fleet footed dog that can move swiftly through the woods and cover a lot of ground. They see the best athlete for the job as Barry Sanders. If you like basketball, a Point Gaurd or Shooting Gaurd
> 
> Others prefer a slow moving dog that they can see at all times and is almost always in shotgun range and the handle can get to them quickly on point. Of course, this varies a fair amount. Male Rymans range from the 50 to 70+. I have seen Mike's 48 lb dog and he is definitely one of the best moving Rymans I have seen. Anytime you approach even 60 lbs in a male setter you are talking about a very different animal in terms of athleticism and how that dog will need to function in the woods and when you talk about 70 lbs the athletic analogies are VERY different.
> 
> Before anyone gets up in arms  Choose what you will. The world would be a really boring place if we all liked the same things. My point is simply these two dogs makes absolutely NO sense being bred together.
> 
> SRB


 Mr Berg you are a glutton for punishment. I read this thread last week and thought why would anyone want to breed a clydesdale to a throughbred. I didn't have the time then to even get into the discussion. You are dead on in your reasoning. 
My hat is off to you for taking your time to explain why that is not a good practice.


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## Mike McDonald

Bobby, If I had to ride in a saddle for two days my favorite tail to view wouldn't be dog tail. For that matter even if I didn't have to ride a horse it still wouldn't be dog tail. But if I had to pick dog tail it would be 1 or 2 oclock. I guess at the end of the day were lucky to have many different venues for dog people to compete in. mac


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## Linda G.

"I read this thread last week and thought why would anyone want to breed a clydesdale to a throughbred."

from a guy who currently owns what looks like some kind of pointer. Either a GSP or an English Pointer. 

Truly an expert on the subject of setters...


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## tailcrackin

The Amesian Standard
The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both coveys and singles. He must be able quickly to determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brains, eyes, and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must possess speed, range, style, character, courage, and stamina&#8212;and good manners, always. He must hunt the birds, and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable. He must be well broken, and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he lose a little in class, as expressed in extreme speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold, snappy, and spirited. His range must be to the front or to either side, but never behind. He must be regularly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keeps his handler&#8217;s course in view, and at all times keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler.

Thanks Jonesy


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## Mike McDonald

tailcrackin said:


> The Amesian Standard
> The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both coveys and singles. He must be able quickly to determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brains, eyes, and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must possess speed, range, style, character, courage, and staminaand good manners, always. He must hunt the birds, and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable. He must be well broken, and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he lose a little in class, as expressed in extreme speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold, snappy, and spirited. His range must be to the front or to either side, but never behind. He must be regularly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keeps his handlers course in view, and at all times keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler.
> 
> Thanks Jonesy


 
That's exactly what I was thinking. macvet


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## WestCoastHunter

Scott Berg said:


> There are a number of basic premises that need to be followed to maintain and/or improve our breed. So, I am just going to outline why threads like this really concern me where breeding standards are concerned. This is not meant to be critical or belittling. It&#146;s an honest attempt to improve breeding effort in general.
> 
> 1) This appears to be the first Setter this gent has owned. It might very well be a great dog but if this is true, it was selected indiscriminately. In other words, one dog was evaluated for breeding and one accepted. In general terms this is a failure of the most basic principles of breeding.
> 2) 70 lbs Rymans often have show dogs in the ancestry. Sorry, but that was done purely for a certain look and in the process the genetic pool was without question diminished in terms of quality of hunting dog. Before anyone comes unglued, please consult a geneticist with a modest understanding of the two gene pools.
> 3) Another basic premise of breeding is to breed animals of a given phenotype that represent the desired outcome. It basically goes hand in hand with the premise that the measurement of good breeding is a consistent result. Putting two very different types of dogs together does not produce a consistent result. People put these two types of dogs together because they want something in-between. There are MUCH better ways to pursue that goal. I would hope the people who have taken Rymans to cover dogs have taken the Ryamans closest to a cover dog "type" and cover dogs much closer to a Ryman "type".


For conversation, at what point do you think it would be reasonable for an outcross? Hypothetically what if Rymans were to decline in quality as hunting dogs but people still like the look and range, would you still propose breeding only within Ryman lines to fix the problem?

I understand your point. But what you're saying almost comes off as invariably an argument for different breeds.

Thanks.

Sent via Droid


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## Steelheadfred

Linda, i have no dog in this fight, but i am pretty sure Crosswind the top nstra handler in the country, has knowledge of, trained, owned, judged, hunted over, and evaluated many a setter in his life time. I spent a day with Scott and we even discussed setters, his knowledge of all things bird dogs is deep, even spaniels and retrievers.


Linda, sounds like Cody is a nice dog, you should bring him to the line in one of the hunting dog stakes around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tailcrackin

Steelhead, that is a really big statement. I disagree with your thoughts on people for setter evaluation. Thanks Jonesy


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## Scott Berg

WestCoastHunter said:


> For conversation, at what point do you think it would be reasonable for an outcross? Hypothetically what if Rymans were to decline in quality as hunting dogs but people still like the look and range, would you still propose breeding only within Ryman lines to fix the problem?
> 
> I understand your point. But what you're saying almost comes off as invariably an argument for different breeds.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Sent via Droid


WCH,

I am glad you pointed out that my comments appear to support different breeds. I definitely did not intend to leave that impression. Limiting the gene pool is never a good idea and I would never intentionally suggest such limitations. It is a failure of genetics 101 to make a breed out of a line. How can it possibly be of benefit to eliminate 90% of the breed from your potential gene pool?

What I am trying to say here is that the kind of breeding being suggested here is not even remotely as simple as its being made out to be. We are talking about two very different gene pools. 

This type of strategy is also not a one generation strategy. Anyone attempting this type of breeding needs to understand how to orchestrate a predictable result over 2-3 generations. If I were attempting this I would likely breed two outstanding Ryman females to the same (very carefully selected) field type male. The females would possess a phenotype that is closest to field type dogs. The male would slightly hotter (more driven) than most Rymans but handle very kindly. I would pay particular attention to finding a physical stature and gait that could carry the slightly larger Ryman style frame with grace and improved stamina. Obviously the females and males would need to carry all of the other desirable traits. I would then hope like hell I got a male out of one litter and a female out of the other where I could breed half-sibs in the 2nd generation. That would likely provide substantially greater consistency in the 3rd generation.

SRB


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## Linda G.

I have no idea who Crosswinds is, but it certainly sounded to me like he knows absolutely nothing about Rymans...or maybe he just hasn't seen enough. 

Ask Northbound or Martha or Ken or Don or even Hugh sometime what I think about any type of dog competition. If others want to do it, fine, but I have been to plenty in my day and it's not something for either me or my dogs. Just not my thing, and I think too many people take them way too seriously. If the dog hunts for me and the people I hunt with, that's fine. 

And that's how Cody is. More than good enough for me, and certainly not a "clydesdale"...


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## Scott Berg

Linda G. said:


> I have no idea who Crosswinds is, but it certainly sounded to me like he knows absolutely nothing about Rymans...or maybe he just hasn't seen enough.
> 
> Ask Northbound or Martha or Ken or Don or even Hugh sometime what I think about any type of dog competition. If others want to do it, fine, but I have been to plenty in my day and it's not something for either me or my dogs. Just not my thing, and I think too many people take them way too seriously. If the dog hunts for me and the people I hunt with, that's fine.
> 
> And that's how Cody is. More than good enough for me, and certainly not a "clydesdale"...


Linda,

I have an entire state and one of the great lakes between us but I certainly had heard of Scott Townsend long before I ever came on this forum. He has tremendous breadth of experience and knowledge that is applicable across any breed. He has a phenominal record in NSTRA which is all about bird finding and nothing to do with range. In other words, he has VERY clearly proven his expertise.

SRB


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## tailcrackin

Linda, NSTRA is run in a 35 acre field, give or take a little, it is a time scored event. You have 30 min braces, 5 birds on the first brace, 4 every brace after. In 30 minutes you have to push yourself and the dog to try an do the best you can, have as many finds as possible, along with retrieves, and or a back. So broke dogs, or dogs steady threw the flush, shot and or kill, waste time for you or your time on the ground. Dogs should be fast an snappy on the ground, and usually force fetched for the retrieve. Alot call it run -n- gun, just like UFTA trials, that are 20 min, and 3 birds....I think, maybe 4. NSTRA does an endurance trial, that seperates the dogs up pretty well. Thanks Jonesy

Crosswind has done well in these style of trials.


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## Linda G.

But I know what NSTRA is. Been to plenty of stake trials both here in Michigan and out of state to support friends who are very involved in it, just as I've been to lots of NAVHDA stuff. 

And to me, hunting isn't, and never should be, a race...which is why I've only owned one cover dog bred ES. 

It's just not my thing. Heck, I don't even care about the RGS fun trials anymore. Never really did, I know a lot of people who put way too much stock into how their dog does at these-you'd think it was something serious the way they come back all crestfallen and ready to dump their dog at the pound if they don't place. I feel sorry for both them and their perfectly good dog who just might have had a bad day or isn't used to being around all those other people and dogs. Nope, not me. I'd rather go spring turkey hunting/morel hunting in the spring, and in the fall I'd rather hunt. 

And I'm glad to hear about Scott Townsend's credentials. I still have no idea who he is, and quite frankly, don't care. I just didn't care for his snide remark about Rymans...like I said, maybe he hasn't seen enough of them.


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## Worm Dunker

I think some of you guys need to get out and get layed. I though this post was about a guy getting his dog layed. I still have a nice little setter(44lbs) he in heat all the time!!!!


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## Bobby

Worm Dunker said:


> I think some of you guys need to get out and get layed. I though this post was about a guy getting his dog layed. I still have a nice little setter(44lbs) he in heat all the time!!!!


WWWDW

That's a Classic (sic) Terry, one to be cherished.


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## kek25

I don't know about the rest of you, but I like Clydesdales. Scott wasn't putting down a breed; he was giving an example. Funny how even the owner of a Ryman assumed the comparison of the Ryman was made to the Clydesdale and not the thoroughbred.

Seems like any time someone just mentions the word Ryman in conjunction with another breed all heck breaks loose. Touchy, touchy. 

Don't know anyone from Michigan who could profess to be the least bit familiar with NSTRA and not know of Scott Townsend's reputation in the sport. (Well, now I do.)

He's done more than just well in shoot to retrieve, and he's one of the most unselfish pros I've met when it comes to sharing his knowledge about dogs and his property for training.

Good one, Terry.

To the original thread starter, talk to the Frucheys up at the IGA and see if the blood they have in their setters would meld with your female. They are good people.


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## Induna

I live a stones throw away and have a son of Pioneer Will and Woodland Dancer. Bring her over and Al will be more than happy to clean his pipes out for free. That sir will be the ONLY thing free about having your litter of pups.


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## 2ESRGR8

Induna said:


> I live a stones throw away and have a son of Pioneer Will and Woodland Dancer. Bring her over and Al will be more than happy to clean his pipes out for free. That sir will be the ONLY thing free about having your litter of pups.


 Where were you 96 posts ago?


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## Ronnem

2ESRGR8 said:


> You cannot have this discussion without first deciding what you want to discuss. Hunting dogs or trial dogs?
> Hunting and trialing are not the same and should not be compared side by side in my opinion. But to answer your question I would say no.


 
Scott,

I was hoping this would be addressed, but once again, this is the *"field trial handler, field trial dog and field trial dog training"* forum. You posted the best way to go about the discussion, there has to be a seperation in order to discuss these topics. I would love to talk about hunting dogs, and hunting dog breedings, but it would appear the trial guys out number the hunters here. 

Ron


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## kek25

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Stop talking about it and start the thread if you want. If you pay attention to the thread you can keep it on track. 

But just maybe the hunters you speak of don't need to have their way of doing things made public. This forum certainly doesn't lack hunters, just hunters that don't care to be in the limelight and have their methods flyspecked, because they are satisfied with what they have, where they're at, and how they got there.

Don't hold it against field trialers because they choose to speak out on issues while the non-trialing hunters choose to remain silent.


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## Scott Berg

Northbound said:


> 2ESRGR8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> These were likely slobbered to death
> 
> _I think the metronomic gait got this one_
> 
> _These 3 crushed under a sizeable hoof_
> 
> _The King!(of beers?)_
> 
> _Uh-oh, more clysedale carnage. :yikes:_
> 
> _Budweiser dogs apparently like wild Kansas ringnecks too._
> _Day one field one 65 minutes later, killed my first over a point 15 seconds out of the truck._
> 
> _Tire tracks, the beer wagon musta hit these_
> 
> That's hysterical :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Scott,
> 
> Your dog looks to me to be about 52 lbs. Crosswind's Clysedale comment was specifically about a 70lbs dog. Using the same ratio your dog is a 6'2" 200 wide reciever the 70 lbs dog is 6'2" 270 athlete. While Crosswinds comments did not need to be quite so derogatory, he is correct in that they are very different types.
> 
> If you look back on my comments I actually specifically recommended the use of Ryman dogs that are similar in phenotype to your dog. I even suggested a strategy utilizing Rymans. There has been no assult on Rymans here. I would have said the exact same thing if someone recommended any type of 70 lbs Setter. Jack and dogs like him were simply not a part of this discussion. Absolutely no disrespect intended.
> 
> SRB
Click to expand...


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## honkey

BradU20 said:


> About time we got some people fired up around here....it was getting really stale in here.


I can help to stir the pot here if needed. Worked pretty good last time


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## 2ESRGR8

Scott Berg said:


> Absolutely no disrespect intended.
> 
> SRB


 None taken just tossin' some barbs back the other way is all.
Last year I hunted Jack down to 53lbs. , he is my workhorse and I lean on him. That is probably the hardest I pushed him in any given year.
In those pics he is probably close to 56 lbs. as Kater gets some more hours I can maintain some weight on him. Off season he is a 60lb. dog when he spends too much time sofa surfing.


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## Scott Berg

Linda G. said:


> "70lbs dogs are simply not agile"...omg.
> 
> Did you really say that, Scott?? Do you really expect people to believe that? I think some of you trialers have been drinking too much of the water...LOL


Linda,

Put up a video of these agile 70 lbs. Setters. I would love to see it. I can't imagine someone as in to dogs as you are does not have a video. Anyone else with an agile 70 lbs Setter should put it up too.

SRB


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## oilcan

Scott Berg said:


> Linda,
> 
> Put up a video of these agile 70 lbs. Setters. I would lobe to see it. I can't imagine someone as in to do as you are does not have a video. Anyone else with an agile 70 lbs Setter should put it up too.
> 
> SRB


 Your not the only one that wants to see it, lots of them look like mules.


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## kek25

I think size becomes a less important factor with a closer working dog that has a more methodical approach to his application.


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## Flash01

kek25 said:


> Don't know anyone from Michigan who could profess to be the least bit familiar with NSTRA and not know of Scott Townsend's reputation in the sport. (Well, now I do.)
> 
> He's done more than just well in shoot to retrieve, and he's one of the most unselfish pros I've met when it comes to sharing his knowledge about dogs and his property for training.


He is quite unselfish with his Crown Royal too!


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## WestCoastHunter

Scott Berg said:


> any 70lbs pound dog is simply the wrong physical type for the woods.


I suspect this is where you went wrong with people.

This is a fairly sweeping statement that fails to acknowledge that trial setters and dual setters are bred for different styles of hunting. Both can hunt in the woods and both types have piles of birds shot over them every year.

Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. 

A smaller coverdog breeding might be more suited to high speed twisting and turning in the woods, but I think saying a bigger dog is ill suited for hunting in the woods is a stretch. The two types of dogs simply work differently.

But what do I know? The last time I hunted over a setter was in northern Europe around 1991 on leased farm land going after pheasant...interestingly, those dogs looked like our Rymans here.

I understand the point you're making Scott and for the most part I agree with you. I just think this one line could have been worded better.


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## kek25

Flash01 said:


> He is quite unselfish with his Crown Royal too!


Crown Royal? I think I was offered a Buckhorn beer, circa 1982, when I was over there. :lol:


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## kek25

WestCoastHunter said:


> A smaller coverdog breeding might be more suited to high speed twisting and turning in the woods . . .


Smaller setters are ill suited for the woods, as their short legs just can't get their stubby bodies over deadfalls. And they can't "weave" through the woods like a nice leggy, long bodied setter can. When a smaller setter is presented with the aspen obstacle course it bounces around the woods like a pinball and eventuall comes limping back to its master all black and blued, in my experience.

The ideal setter, based upon my years of hunting with all types and body sizes, is a 58.25 lb., long legged, long bodied, deep chested male preferably in orange and white (more white than orange) born under a quarter moon in a manger lined with marsh hay permitted to suckle the dam for at least 3 years.

I hunted over one like that last year and it was the bomb.


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## mcanes1

That was an intersting hour and 45 minutes worth of reading on this thread. Interesting thread. Well sort of.


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## Jay Johnson

"These were likely slobbered to death



I think the metronomic gait got this one



These 3 crushed under a sizeable hoof



The King!(of beers?)


Uh-oh, more clysedale carnage. 




Budweiser dogs apparently like wild Kansas ringnecks too.
Day one field one 65 minutes later, killed my first over a point 15 seconds out of the truck.



Tire tracks, the beer wagon musta hit these"


__________________
Click this bar to view the full image.



No disrespect meant in my next comments but what is the big deal about a dog that finds and points birds with some proficiency? Isn't this what should be expected in a bird dog? 

That said, if you took two dogs of equal caliber in terms of grouse sense, ability to handle birds, application, etc...wouldn't dog that covers more ground per unit time of hunting on average find more birds? 

I have friends who are very knowledgeable and avid grouse hunters that hunt with dogs similar to Scott's Jack in type. They shoot impressive numbers of birds over these dogs and are very happy with them. Their dogs hunt at a fairly close range generally within 50-80 yards. When I hunt with them and we run our dogs as a brace my bigger running dogs produce the vast majority of the birds in a given day. In essence, my dog beats my partners dog to the birds or, because of their extended range, go to places and find birds that are beyond the reach of the closer working dog. 

In the same fashion, a couple Springs back I ran dogs with Jerry Kolter. He ran his multiple grouse champion Houston's Belle and I ran my gun dog Meg. In a couple hour run Belle outbirded Meg about 2 to 1. Again, she was consistently covering more ground than Meg and literally beat her to birds and went places that she would have never explored. 

That said, as a foot hunter we each have to determine a balancing point between performance in terms of bird production and ease of hunting with a particular dog. Sort of our own most effective level. When we find that equilibrium I believe as a dog man team we are at our most effective. And, this is certainly influenced by the type of cover we hunt, the uniformity, size, and quality of the cover, our ability to walk, our ability to hear, our prey drive, etc...

Just some thoughts...


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## kek25

Just a comment:

There's no better way to strain a friendship than by running a big ranging dog with a close working dog -- all the hacking has a significant effect on the closer working dog.


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## WestCoastHunter

Do yourselves a favor and eliminate most all debate and just buy Pointers. :evilsmile


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## kek25

WestCoastHunter said:


> Do yourselves a favor and eliminate most all debate and just buy Pointers.




Of course you mean pointers of the English Setter variety.


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## Jay Johnson

"all the hacking has a significant effect on the closer working dog."

It might but I practice a quieter the better philosophy. I don't handle the dog and run them with a beeper set on point only and no bell. Only time there is noise is when they pee, poop, point or when I shoot and say fetch.


----------



## WestCoastHunter

kek25 said:


> Of course you mean pointers of the English Setter variety.


Heck no, after reading this thread who'd want a ping pong ball that no one can control or an elephant that clumsily stumbles around the woods? 

*sigh*

All appears lost for the English Setter. :lol:


----------



## Scott Berg

Jay Johnson said:


> "
> 
> No disrespect meant in my next comments but what is the big deal about a dog that finds and points birds with some proficiency? Isn't this what should be expected in a bird dog?
> 
> *That said, if you took two dogs of equal caliber in terms of grouse sense, ability to handle birds, application, etc...wouldn't dog that covers more ground per unit time of hunting on average find more birds? *
> 
> I have friends who are very knowledgeable and avid grouse hunters that hunt with dogs similar to Scott's Jack in type. They shoot impressive numbers of birds over these dogs and are very happy with them. Their dogs hunt at a fairly close range generally within 50-80 yards. When I hunt with them and we run our dogs as a brace my bigger running dogs produce the vast majority of the birds in a given day. In essence, my dog beats my partners dog to the birds or, because of their extended range, go to places and find birds that are beyond the reach of the closer working dog.
> 
> In the same fashion, a couple Springs back I ran dogs with Jerry Kolter. He ran his multiple grouse champion Houston's Belle and I ran my gun dog Meg. In a couple hour run Belle outbirded Meg about 2 to 1. Again, she was consistently covering more ground than Meg and literally beat her to birds and went places that she would have never explored.
> 
> That said, as a foot hunter we each have to determine a balancing point between performance in terms of bird production and ease of hunting with a particular dog. Sort of our own most effective level. When we find that equilibrium I believe as a dog man team we are at our most effective. And, this is certainly influenced by the type of cover we hunt, the uniformity, size, and quality of the cover, our ability to walk, our ability to hear, our prey drive, etc...
> 
> Just some thoughts...


Jay,

Perhaps the best post I have ever seen on the subject. I have always tried (not sure that I have been affective) to articulate the part of your post that I have put in bold print. While not easily defined, there is a range and pace that is going to produce the most birds. The key to this statement is that "produce" means pointed birds. 

Those who think a slow working dog would have eventually found those birds fail to recognize your dog is hitting cover the slow dog never reaches. There is no doubt a point of diminishing return and then a point where range becomes counter productive. If I had to put a number on it I would say the dog that patterns between 75-150 yards is darn effective. 

There used to be two local guys that hunted off ATVs in one of the areas I grouse hunt. They would bag 75+ birds in good years. They do get off and walk little hot spots without a dog. The first time I broke the century mark on grouse I was a sophomore in college. I did it by shooting every wild flush and bumped bird I could. The point is that birds in the bag are not necessarily a product of good dog work. 

SRB


----------



## WestCoastHunter

Scott Berg said:


> If I had to put a number on it I would say the dog that patterns between 75-150 yards is darn effective.


Agreed.


----------



## kek25

Scott Berg said:


> . . .Those who think a slow working dog would have eventually found those birds fail to recognize your dog is hitting cover the slow dog never reaches. . .SRB


I don't understand this statement. If you are talking about a hunt that goes on infinitum, I'd agree, but if you are talking about finite hunts in boundaried covers (i.e. square or rectangled covers bounded by 4 edges) that may take a larger ranging dog an hour to hunt and a slower working dog 2 hours to hunt, how is it that a slower working dog never makes it to the places that the larger ranging dog covers? He makes it there, but at a slower pace.

Caveat: I would agree with Jay's assessment that on average a ". . .dog that covers more ground per unit time of hunting on average [will] find more birds. . ." But in a cover-by-cover scenerio I don't believe speed of hunt will produce more birds (unless you're running out of daylight).

And I'd argue that if one dog is beating another dog in productive bird contacts by a significant ratio of 2:1 or more, assuming they're run separately, then there is more of a difference at work than just ground coverage between the 2 dogs.


----------



## Linda G.

From September 15 until the woodcock opener, 2-3 hours a day, three days a week. Weekends, depending on what's going on at home and how much work I have do from the office, anywhere from 3-5 hours on the ground. Both Saturday and Sunday. 

Once the woodcock season is open, five days a week, 2-3 hours on the ground, weekends, at least 4-6 hours unless I am doing work at home, or in the office. Then it's 3-4 both days.

When the flights start to come in I'm out there more, and take days off work to head afield to other areas a bit. Used to spend at least a week every fall out west, primarily in Kansas, but haven't done that in four years now as I'm a newspaper editor and can't take more than a few days off at a time...and even then, I'm working remotely. 

In the off-season we're out there about 2 hours a day getting our exercise and conditioning. Every day, year around, except in pouring deluges or blizzards. Rarely is there not a day I'm not out there with Cody somewhere. He has also been cross trained to squirrel hunt and fall turkey hunt to some degree, so he also hunts other game with us when we're not bird hunting, which is 90 percent of the time. No fall turkey season up here this year, but we'll be out squirrel hunting a lot after January 1.


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## GSPJAKE

This could be the biggest hijacked thread i've seen yet:


----------



## Mike McDonald

It's not hijacked, I'm just asking for the credentials of those that are giving expert advice. 
Scott 10 yrs ago I did kill 2x as many birds, but then I hunted with a total of 4 guys. One most of the time, this year I'm at 30 so almost a guest/day, that hurts the number taken. mac


----------



## R. Ford

As my first post on Michigan Sportsman, all I can say is that this was an interesting thread. I always enjoy the 'breeding' threads. I enjoy reading the different perspectives of what makes a quality bird dog, and what others should, and should not breed. Very interesting.


----------



## Duece22

Linda G. said:


> From September 15 until the woodcock opener, 2-3 hours a day, three days a week. Weekends, depending on what's going on at home and how much work I have do from the office, anywhere from 3-5 hours on the ground. Both Saturday and Sunday.
> 
> Once the woodcock season is open, five days a week, 2-3 hours on the ground, weekends, at least 4-6 hours unless I am doing work at home, or in the office. Then it's 3-4 both days.
> 
> When the flights start to come in I'm out there more, and take days off work to head afield to other areas a bit. Used to spend at least a week every fall out west, primarily in Kansas, but haven't done that in four years now as I'm a newspaper editor and can't take more than a few days off at a time...and even then, I'm working remotely.
> 
> In the off-season we're out there about 2 hours a day getting our exercise and conditioning. Every day, year around, except in pouring deluges or blizzards. Rarely is there not a day I'm not out there with Cody somewhere. He has also been cross trained to squirrel hunt and fall turkey hunt to some degree, so he also hunts other game with us when we're not bird hunting, which is 90 percent of the time. No fall turkey season up here this year, but we'll be out squirrel hunting a lot after January 1.


Just for clarification, we are talking about hours "Grouse" hunting correct? Just curious based on your hours of ground time when the "flights" come down. If a dog is a grouse dog it should pick up plenty of woodcock in your grouse covers to kill a limit each and everyday of the season if you choose, this is in my experience and oppinion.

Ric


----------



## crosswind

Mike McDonald said:


> It's not hijacked, I'm just asking for the credentials of those that are giving expert advice.
> Scott 10 yrs ago I did kill 2x as many birds, but then I hunted with a total of 4 guys. One most of the time, this year I'm at 30 so almost a guest/day, that hurts the number taken. mac


I suppose this is at least partially aimed at me. Mike for one this is a public forum. You can take advice from it or you can leave it. I don't remember reading anything about needing to post credentials to post advice. Since when does a person need to know how many birds or many days afield on spends before a member on here can accept what they say as real advice. Are you joking me? You can take the advice or you can leave it no matter who it comes from. That is the choice that we all make every time we read a post.
My opinion has always been that the person that needs to post their numbers of what ever it is they do is noting more then a braggart and generally full of xxxx. 

It is BS like your post that keeps allot of good knowledgeable bird dog people from participating on these forums.


----------



## mudbat2128

Merimac said:


> Really? Is this really going to turn into a "My **** is bigger than your **** thread?


Well I do belive the orignal post was about somebody looking for a stud dog.


----------



## Mike McDonald

Someone smarter than I said believe half of what you see and none of what you read. Those that actually know me, I think would say that I'm anything but a braggard. I've never denied being full of xxxx. 
That said if you're going to hold yourself up as an expert on hunting dog structure and function it seems that you would at least inform your readers about your actual field experience. 
When I had my knee rebuilt 4 yrs ago I researched the problem and then went to the best knee doctor I could find. Tons of experience and tons of great results. I followed his advice with great results. I'm suggesting that we state our credentials for our readership.
"Those with nothing to hide hide nothing". 
mac


----------



## Dave Medema

I don't hunt/train as much as I used to. I still get out enough to see some birds and shoot a few. I'm similar to Mike in that I've hunted with lots of different guys/dogs over the last few years which limits my dogs ground time and my focus on shooting birds vs. teeing up my buds to shoot birds over their dogs. I keep telling myself that next fall I'm going to limit my hunts to just a handful of my regular buds, our dogs, and our covers. 

But.......I've hunted enough over the last 25 years, with enough different types of dogs to know how I prefer to hunt and the style of the dogs best suited to me.


----------



## Flash01

Mike McDonald said:


> I've read with interest this entire thread. I'm curious just how often we all actually go grouse hunting. Not training, not trialing, not preserve, but grouse hunting. Much of the topic has revolved around grouse hunting and grouse dogs so I would like everybody to honestly give count of the actual number of 6+ hours days that they have hunted annually for the last 3 years. It seems to me that if we are to hold ourselves up as experts on the net we should be able to back it up with real hunting experience. For me it's 35 this year and 40 each year for the two previously. IT's been about 40 for the last 20+ years. I hope to add to my annual totals in Dec but we're supposed to get 8"of snow today which will hurt me. So how bout it.
> HOW MUCH DO YOU ACTUALLY GROUSE HUNT???
> MAC


 
In point of fact, much of this thread was about BREEDING grouse dogs not hunting grouse dogs. I could have purchased my first dog four years ago and hunted like crazy for the past three years and know absoultely NOTHING about responsible breeding or dogs in general. 

I would take the advice of someone who has broken 100+ dogs as a professional trainer and bred 50+ litters (and still has high demand for his dogs) in his career over someone who can say they have "hunted a lot of long days in the last three years" every time without much thought at all. That person might be a grouse hunting expert, but I am not sure I would consult them on breeding philosophy and/or practice.


----------



## crosswind

Well I will tell ya what Mike if you really need to know how many days or hours I spend on wild birds you pm me and I will give you a guess. I am not like you pros I don't keep a log. So I could very well be an hour or ten off.
Do you need to know any other info before one can be accepted as credible? how about the kind of car I drive or how many guns I have.Hey I have a dog trailer does that count for anything. How about how many hours I spend actually out working with dogs and running all over the country running and watching other people and there dogs? Can I get in the credible club now. 
Give me a friggin break. 
I quess by discussing the almighty Ryman setters I have struck some tender nerves. I never once said they can't perform. If thats what you like to hunt behind so be it.


----------



## WestCoastHunter

Flash01 said:


> In point of fact, much of this thread was about BREEDING grouse dogs not hunting grouse dogs. I could have purchased my first dog four years ago and hunted like crazy for the past three years and know absoultely NOTHING about responsible breeding or dogs in general.
> 
> I would take the advice of someone who has broken 100+ dogs as a professional trainer and bred 50+ litters (and still has high demand for his dogs) in his career over someone who can say they have "hunted a lot of long days in the last three years" every time without much thought at all. That person might be a grouse hunting expert, but I am not sure I would consult them on breeding philosophy and/or practice.


Ah, here comes the Michigan NSTRA. :evilsmile

I listen to veterinarians. They tend to know things about dogs.

But I'm curious. How much does stamina and gait even matter in the NSTRA? With a point system used for scoring such as the NSTRA's it seems to me a dog with a terrible gait could still win. 

If you say it matters a lot, how many AF horseback dogs have NSTRA blood in them? Now don't go telling me how your dogs have AF blood in them, I want to hear about how many NSTRA dogs are chosen for all age breedings where such things really matter. 

Anyone?

P.S. - I have no idea what the answer to this is so I'm really curious.


----------



## Mike McDonald

Flash01 said:


> In point of fact, much of this thread was about BREEDING grouse dogs not hunting grouse dogs. I could have purchased my first dog four years ago and hunted like crazy for the past three years and know absoultely NOTHING about responsible breeding or dogs in general.
> 
> I would take the advice of someone who has broken 100+ dogs as a professional trainer and bred 50+ litters (and still has high demand for his dogs) in his career over someone who can say they have "hunted a lot of long days in the last three years" every time without much thought at all. That person might be a grouse hunting expert, but I am not sure I would consult them on breeding philosophy and/or practice.


 
My point is that to evaluate grouse dogs it needs to be in the grouse woods. To do anything else moves us closer to bench dog breeders. Not is NSTRA trials, Gun Dog trials, RSG trials, or any other trail with exception of Cover Dog trials. If you're evaluating athletes, you'll need to evaluate them in their athletic pursuit. By the way I'm not challenging Scott Berg's credentials. I've met Scott, hunted with Scott, and visited his kennel. No doubt he is the real deal. I just want to know something about the others. mac


----------



## Merimac

Mike McDonald said:


> If I personally am taking advice or direction I always check credentials and experience in the area that I'm planing to be advised. To me field wild game experience is a credential. Let's not be shy. Give your wild bird credentials. mac


 So, Bruce *may* have less Hunting days but a ton more training days than you but I guess this does not count??? Once again, what's the real point of this? You have read all kinds of threads on this board(and others) and you already know who hunts like it is sacred and or know a crap load about dogs. Just to name a few very credible members(in my eyes)... I left a lot out but really, 

Fritz
Jr.
Brian Lengling
Grush
Jay
Dave Medema
Bobby
Keith
Bruce
Crosswind
Find the Bird
Induna
Mike P
Jonsey
Scott B
and yes Macvet
The list goes on. 

Does this help?


----------



## Flash01

WestCoastHunter said:


> Ah, here comes the Michigan NSTRA. :evilsmile
> 
> I listen to veterinarians. They tend to know things about dogs.
> 
> But I'm curious. How much does stamina and gait even matter in the NSTRA? With a point system used for scoring such as the NSTRA's it seems to me a dog with a terrible gait could still win.
> 
> If you say it matters a lot, how many AF horseback dogs have NSTRA blood in them? Now don't go telling me how your dogs have AF blood in them, I want to hear about how many NSTRA dogs are chosen for all age breedings where such things really matter.
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> P.S. - I have no idea what the answer to this is so I'm really curious.


 
/sigh


----------



## Scott Berg

Mike McDonald said:


> I don't mean to turn the thread into mine's bigger than your's, but if we are going to give advice let's back it up with fact. I think time spent afield is related in some way to competence. After all I didn't give a number of grouse killed. I just asked how much time we are all actually in the woods. Why should that be embarassing? mac


Mac,

I understand completely where you are coming from. Advice from Dave Hughes is a lot more credible than information from a guy that has owned 15-20 dogs. In my real job, experience, credentials, and track record are merely the price of admission *BUT* this is the internet. I have seen guys who have whelped less than 20 litters in their lives critique Bob Wehle and guys who have owned and trained 20 dogs advise and correct guys that have trained hundreds. Everyone gets a voice here. Thats attractive to many. The flip side of the coin is that several exceptionally experienced people have told me that they quit or never started participating on these sites for this very reason. They grow weary of people with a fraction of the experience insisting that they dont get it. Its the nature of the beast.

I would bet there are veterinarians that have practice for 25 years that are quite a bit more skilled and knowledgeable than others who have practiced for 25 years? My personal experience in what I will describe as fixing broken companies has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that many people absolutely refuse to change their practices once they become convinced of a given approach regardless of the experience and credentials of the people giving the advice, even when it is readily apparent that the failure was on their watch.

I see experience in the woods as a definite prerequisite to understanding grouse dogs but it is just one of many experiences that leads to understanding bird dogs. I wish grouse hunting experience was all that it takes because I am one of those guys who started hunting grouse at 10 years old and by 16 years old pounded the grouse woods from August (scouting and training) until whenever in December the snow was too deep to hunt for a lot of years. I harvested an extraordinary number of birds but after all of those hours and birds harvested, *I still did not know much about bird dogs*. At a certain point I stopped shooting wild flushes and also got exposed to a much larger group of people with different types of dogs and went through a lot of dogs myself trying to figure it out. There are a lot of other things that contribute to learning about bird dogs. For me it was;

Hunting and training on the prairie, going south for bobwhites, working dogs on spring grouse & woodcock, evaluating a large number of dogs for breeding and then breeding several litters a year. Following-up on the offspring has also been a real education. Filed trialing  Love it or hate it, field trialing will teach you a bunch about bird dogs. Judging trials is ironically another educational experience. Last, but certainly not least, hunting, training, trialing, and just discussing bird dogs with exceptionally accomplished dog people. Its hard to describe the value of working and discussing bird dogs with the Jim Tandes, Jerry Kolters, Rich Robertson, Harold Ray, Frank Lanasa, lloyd Murray, Rick Smith, etc, etc. 

SRB


----------



## Steelheadfred

Whoa, this **** just got fo real. For the record again, i own dogs that never pointr and rarely cast out beyond 35 yards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike McDonald

For the record I agree with everything Scott said. mac


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## Worm Dunker

I try to get this back on track. Since Charlie is offering a freebee so will I.








[/IMG]

This is a old picture. The top dog Springpond Jake is a grandson of 6X Ch StillmedeowJim and great grandson and H.O.F. Ch. Destainair on bottom side. On the top. side Ch. Stoakley Diablio Jake and Ch. Hichory Run Buddy . The other dog in picture is his mother Maggie best woodcock dog I've ever hunted over she's gone now. Jake is a 9 still a virgin and a tri color


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## 2ESRGR8

Steelheadfred said:


> For the record again, i own dogs that never pointr and rarely cast out beyond 35 yards.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Bootlickers.
Do they weigh over or under 70lbs?
Are they better duct or chukkker dogs?


----------



## Flash01

WestCoastHunter said:


> If Crosswind is going to go thundering around on this board whining because someone had the gall to call his actual hunting credentials into question then I think it&#8217;s only fair to question his professional creds too, regardless of his accomplishments.
> 
> Professional Credentials... regardless of accomplishments? I believe that question speaks for itself.
> 
> 
> I just think you guys need to learn to be a little more open to criticism and in the case of Scott Townsend some lessons in manners might be in order.
> 
> If you read and think carefully back, I believe you will find a trend... people with the level of knowledge that could charge for the advice they give freely on this forum may find it irritating when a self proclaimed "weekend warrior" consistently stirs the pot in tangential ways, providing little if any real content to the discussion.
> 
> 
> <EOM>


You claim some have biases against certain formats of competition on these forums. You are correct. A quick cursory review of your posts will reveal a strong and aggressive bias against NSTRA events. 

We dont care what you think. Really, we dont. 

Why do you care so much about what Crosswind says? A mirror may be helpful in resolving this conflict within you.

You may not like the way he says stuff. He may call out crazy claims like setters cannot be force broke to retrieve a little less delicately than you would prefer. He may come off a little gruff at times. That is all true, but he has spent more time helping others with their dogs *for free *than you most likely spend working your dog in total, and that is not an exaggeration. He also has a waiting list for his training program. People from all over the country seek his training and advice. You may find this hard to believe, but its true. 

My first experience with Crosswind was at his home when he spent an entire afternoon helping my brother and myself with our dogs. We were nobodies and knew nothing, each with our first dog. We interrupted a training session he was doing with his own dogs, which he stopped without complaint or making us wait. He charged us only for the birds we shot. If you want testimonials on his "manners", I am sure there are pleanty of folks that frequent this site that could tell you similar stories of his generousity with time and knowledge. 

You say he brags frequently. Honestly I wish he did brag a little. I make you this challenge. Review his posts and then list the accomplishments he has bragged about. Post them. Then we can review that with reality.

Without some of the knowledgeable pros (of all formats, including "just" grouse dogs) that regularly post on these forums, it would quickly become a lonely club for the folks that "troll" these forums. I am not putting Crosswind above any of the others, I just know him better.


----------



## J-Lee

Flash01 said:


> What an interesting comment.
> 
> I was thinking how fortunate the OP (and the rest of us that are interested in learning about dogs) was for having such a knowledgeable and experienced community to learn and get ideas from.



There are a lot of knowledgeable pros and hard hunting amateurs who are free with their wisdom here. I greatly appreciate this and hope they don't get run off with the b.s. that sometimes happens here.


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## chewy

wch. please check this website out and look under puppies. then look at the lacy pedigre and who it was bred to. 

aa dog to a nstra dog. 

www.onpointkennelsgsp.com

If your interested who the breeder of the female is I will give u a hint. he lives in Michigan and is one of the top nstra pros in the country


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## Linda G.

hey, guys, there's only 24 hours in a day...that's a very long weekend and you all must hunt non-stop, even in the middle of the night...with five day weekends...whatever...LOL

Like I said, guys, I didn't keep track of my cooperator's report this year, but I'll take a look at last year's, if I can find my copy, as this year wasn't any different.


----------



## 2ESRGR8

chewy said:


> wch. please check this website out and look under puppies. then look at the lacy pedigre and who it was bred to.
> 
> aa dog to a nstra dog.
> 
> www.onpointkennelsgsp.com


When you say AA dog is that a breed restricted AKC title?




> If your interested who the breeder of the female is I will give u a hint. he lives in Michigan and is one of the top nstra pros in the country


 Nick Miller?


----------



## GSP Gal

Flash01 said:


> You claim some have biases against certain formats of competition on these forums. You are correct. A quick cursory review of your posts will reveal a strong and aggressive bias against NSTRA events.
> 
> We dont care what you think. Really, we dont.
> 
> Why do you care so much about what Crosswind says? A mirror may be helpful in resolving this conflict within you.
> 
> You may not like the way he says stuff. He may call out crazy claims like setters cannot be force broke to retrieve a little less delicately than you would prefer. He may come off a little gruff at times. That is all true, but he has spent more time helping others with their dogs *for free *than you most likely spend working your dog in total, and that is not an exaggeration. He also has a waiting list for his training program. People from all over the country seek his training and advice. You may find this hard to believe, but its true.
> 
> My first experience with Crosswind was at his home when he spent an entire afternoon helping my brother and myself with our dogs. We were nobodies and knew nothing, each with our first dog. We interrupted a training session he was doing with his own dogs, which he stopped without complaint or making us wait. He charged us only for the birds we shot. If you want testimonials on his "manners", I am sure there are pleanty of folks that frequent this site that could tell you similar stories of his generousity with time and knowledge.
> 
> You say he brags frequently. Honestly I wish he did brag a little. I make you this challenge. Review his posts and then list the accomplishments he has bragged about. Post them. Then we can review that with reality.
> 
> Without some of the knowledgeable pros (of all formats, including "just" grouse dogs) that regularly post on these forums, it would quickly become a lonely club for the folks that "troll" these forums. I am not putting Crosswind above any of the others, I just know him better.


Well said! 

I buy a pup from a guy in interlochen, so the bitch was bred to Fritz. I call Scott for some advice on his line of pups. I didn't buy Schatzie from Scott, nor did he do the hands on training of Schatzie. But the first day I had my pup, he spent 40 minutes on the phone coaching me with my training of my Fritz puppy. He didn't have to do that. He doesn't know me from Adam at this point.

He has helped me tremendously while I get initiated into NSTRA. He helps everybody who asks. He stays to watch the amatures run, he gets a kick out of us learning and succeeding. That is professional. If he doesn't seem to have patience with "keyboard warriors" - so what. He will call them as he sees them. His honesty can be tough. But do you want sugar coating? Some can't deal with that, but the Girl Scouts will have you. 

There are other pros that do the same that participate less on this board, frankly, don't blame them. They help people at trials, will talk dogs all day long, but stay out of some of the garbage on this board.


----------



## Duece22

Linda G. said:


> hey, guys, there's only 24 hours in a day...that's a very long weekend and you all must hunt non-stop, even in the middle of the night...with five day weekends...whatever...LOL
> 
> Like I said, guys, I didn't keep track of my cooperator's report this year, but I'll take a look at last year's, if I can find my copy, as this year wasn't any different.


Linda, not talking about hours, taking about grouse worked by dogs. By Daves simple math you were in the ball park of one grouse pointed per hour give or take a little. There are guys that have been posting that are probably having between 3 and 5 grouse worked per hour, no woodcock included. I know who I would be taking my advice from if I was the original poster. 
Ric


----------



## Mike McDonald

Great news for everybody, Grouse season opens up again next Wednesday and I'm off Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Sorry my posting time may be limited again. mac


----------



## BIGSP

Duece22 said:


> Linda, not talking about hours, taking about grouse worked by dogs. By Daves simple math you were in the ball park of one grouse pointed per hour give or take a little. There are guys that have been posting that are probably having between 3 and 5 grouse worked per hour, no woodcock included. I know who I would be taking my advice from if I was the original poster.
> Ric


Just to piggy back on what Ric said. In Sept if you hunt all day and have spots close to each other you can get 9 or 10 hours on the ground times that by 4 or 5 over a long weekend and 120 is not that hard to hit with good spots and good dogs.


----------



## midwestfisherman

Linda G. said:


> a weekend, huh...that's quite a weekend.
> 
> Whatever...I posted that because Mr. Berg or someone was insinuating that my dog can't hold up...or something.
> 
> I feel sorry for the guy that first asked about a stud dog for his female.
> 
> There's another board out there where that guy won't run into too many trial types, if he's interested, pm me...


Linda your disdain for trialers and trial dogs has most certainly clouded your judgment. I'm sure your Cody is a nice dog, but you're trying to compare apples to oranges. The only reason I would see to breed a trial bred dog to a Ryman bred dog is to infuse a a little giddy up into that Ryman bred stuff. Outside of that it would be a waste of time and effort on both sides.

Since you're so dismissive of a trial dogs ability I'd be happy to put a c-note on the line and loose our two dogs into a cover and see who comes out with the most bird finds. I'll even let you pick between Merlin and Arwen as to who I put on the ground. You can even bring an audience if you like.


----------



## Steelheadfred

midwestfisherman said:


> Linda your disdain for trialers and trial dogs has most certainly clouded your judgment. I'm sure your Cody is a nice dog, but you're trying to compare apples to oranges. The only reason I would see to breed a trial bred dog to a Ryman bred dog is to infuse a a little giddy up into that Ryman bred stuff. Outside of that it would be a waste of time and effort on both sides.
> 
> Since you're so dismissive of a trial dogs ability I'd be happy to put a c-note on the line and loose our two dogs into a cover and see who comes out with the most bird finds. I'll even let you pick between Merlin and Arwen as to who I put on the ground. You can even bring an audience if you like.


I want action on this, i will take Linda and her on the ground time as a hunter and her dogs 100 finds this year. For craps and giggles i will pick the cover. Dog has to produce a bird for a shot must remain on point till bird takes flight. Let me know when and where.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ESRGR8

Steelheadfred said:


> I want action on this, i will take Linda and her on the ground time as a hunter and her dogs 100 finds this year. For craps and giggles i will pick the cover. Dog has to produce a bird for a shot must remain on point till bird takes flight. Let me know when and where.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now we are getting somewhere!
Woodcock are gone so a true test of a grouse dog.
In the immortal voice of Mills Lane, let's get it on!!!!!


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## Dave Medema

Linda G. said:


> hey, guys, there's only 24 hours in a day...that's a very long weekend and you all must hunt non-stop, even in the middle of the night...with five day weekends...whatever...LOL
> 
> Like I said, guys, I didn't keep track of my cooperator's report this year, but I'll take a look at last year's, if I can find my copy, as this year wasn't any different.



Linda, that is exactly my point. It took you and Cody 120 + hours to find and point 100 birds. Other dogs are pointing 100 birds in a long weekend with much, much, much less hours on the ground. Would you rather hunt a dog that finds 1 grouse per hour or one that points 5 an hour? If the owners were making comments on a thread regarding breeding grouse dogs, who would you give more credibility?

I understand there are large variables in terms of good grouse covers but I think you understand my point. I'm happy you enjoy Cody. I hope he points grouse for a long time.


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## chewy

2ESRGR8 said:


> When you say AA dog is that a breed restricted AKC title?
> 
> 
> Nick Miller?



Scott Townsend. is the breeder of the female 

the sire is on that website. 2009 gspca all age national champ. akc event I believe. he also has derby national championships in thr ngspa. Af event. 

I know most ngspa events are open breeds. can't speak to the akc ones as I don't know. 

the owner of the sire kept a pup from that breeding and is running it in derbies this spring. 

my opinion on thus entire subject is certain lines work in certain venues. it's easiest to find a dog bred for your venue by buying from a breeder who has dogs in the format you want to run. that is why you don't see alot of dogs from one format running in others. 

I look more at the breeding rather than what venue the dogs run. if you use crosswind as an example. his dogs are line bred in a certain line. that line is productive in horseback trials as well as nstra. 

I don't own English pointers or setters so I am only talking shorthairs. 



nstra dogs cover dog. nick miller. Tom v 

asking the same question. what cover dog has win an all age horseback field trial. horseback. and in a field. nit saying there isn't one just curious.


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## Induna

chewy said:


> asking the same question. what cover dog has win an all age horseback field trial. horseback. and in a field. nit saying there isn't one just curious.


 Dave Hughes did it with a couple of Grouse Ridge dogs but it's been a lot of years ago.


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## R. Ford

Induna said:


> Dave Hughes did it with a couple of Grouse Ridge dogs but it's been a lot of years ago.


 

I think Grouse Ridge Storm is at least one of the dogs you are referring to.


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## honkey

chewy said:


> asking the same question. what cover dog has win an all age horseback field trial. horseback. and in a field. nit saying there isn't one just curious.


There have been many in both trials, not uncommon at all. I believe Stolgitis won Championships in both with one of his dogs this year. I know he won horse back, coverdog and walking trials with his dogs. Most guys just don't both venues. There are plenty of coverdogs that could run horseback.


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## Induna

R. Ford said:


> I think Grouse Ridge Storm is at least one of the dogs you are referring to.


That could be one and I think the other one was out of GR Will. Dave placed them in HB and cover dog and the owner(s) placed them in the hunting dog trials, ABHA I believe.


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## 2ESRGR8

****** said:


> There have been many in both trials, not uncommon at all. I believe Stolgitis won Championships in both with one of his dogs this year. I know he won horse back, coverdog and walking trials with his dogs. Most guys just don't both venues. There are plenty of coverdogs that could run horseback.


 Chasehill little Bud.

But AA is different than what I believe Bud was running and winning with his handler on horseback......I most certainly could be wrong however. I thought it was more shooting dog class stuff.


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## FindTheBird

2ESRGR8 said:


> Chasehill little Bud.
> 
> But AA is different than what I believe Bud was running and winning with his handler on horseback......I most certainly could be wrong however. I thought it was more shooting dog class stuff.


I think that CHLB runs in HB shooting dog, not AA.


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## Induna

Not a Setter but Dave Grubb won AA horseback and coverdog with a Pointer named Violet. Do any of you Minn. guys know if Tande did it as well? I remember Jim and Dave going at it head to head, win for win in the 80's and early 90's.


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## chewy

in regards to nstra breeding program to AF I can't believe I didn't think of beeline brittanies. nolans last bullet. want to see his accomplishments go to this site. 

http://www.petitiononline.com/BFTHOF/petition.html


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## midwestfisherman

Steelheadfred said:


> I want action on this, i will take Linda and her on the ground time as a hunter and her dogs 100 finds this year. For craps and giggles i will pick the cover. Dog has to produce a bird for a shot must remain on point till bird takes flight. Let me know when and where.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think I was speaking to you!


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## Jay Johnson

"Do any of you Minn. guys know if Tande did it as well?"

No but Scott Berg or Merrimac may know this. Others like Frank LaNasa, Chick Ahmann, Rod Cole, Bob GOve and others here in MN may have also accomplished this.


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## uplandgunner

First, this thread is best when drinking!!! Second , it would have been a better thread in February. As for me you can all bash away, I'm headed back up to the cabin and going grouse hunting till the snow is too deep.

That said,.....Carry on!


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## tailcrackin

> I didn't think of beeline brittanies. nolans last bullet
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you havent had many of bullet pups in your kennel, there has been more aggression out of that dog, doesnt matter male or female, but will carry and show a whole lot of fight, in an out of the kennel.
> Be better of with some of the "Just call me Roy" dog. He has an will produce every sort of venue that the public will play in, along with no aggression, and a want to for pleasing you. Some of the "beans blaze" blood works out very well also, and is a real strong producer of good stout all around dogs that will play in any venue. Thanks Jonesy
Click to expand...


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## chewy

I don't own brittanies. just giving wch an example of a nstra breeding that has offspring in af events.


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## Linda G.

No offense, but I don't do death marches, as I've said before, I'm not interested in seeing how many miles I can cover in an hour as hunting to me is not a race, nor is it a competition, as I've said before. And to be honest, if I really wanted to hunt with you, I would have gotten in touch a long time ago.


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## crosswind

tailcrackin said:


> I didn't think of beeline brittanies. nolans last bullet
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you havent had many of bullet pups in your kennel, there has been more aggression out of that dog, doesnt matter male or female, but will carry and show a whole lot of fight, in an out of the kennel.
> Be better of with some of the "Just call me Roy" dog. He has an will produce every sort of venue that the public will play in, along with no aggression, and a want to for pleasing you. Some of the "beans blaze" blood works out very well also, and is a real strong producer of good stout all around dogs that will play in any venue. Thanks Jonesy
> 
> 
> 
> I have had no less then 20 of them come through this kennel and have yet to see one that has had an aggression issue.
> I have three of them here now none with that issue. I have washed a few out but never for aggression.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Merimac

Jay Johnson said:


> "Do any of you Minn. guys know if Tande did it as well?"
> 
> No but Scott Berg or Merrimac may know this. Others like Frank LaNasa, Chick Ahmann, Rod Cole, Bob GOve and others here in MN may have also accomplished this.


Jerry Kolter with Houston's Belle I road once or twice watching her win in horseback. Once again this is not All Age its Horseback but there were all Age dogs running in the events. 

I am not sure about Tande but maybe that pointer Northern Dancer??? I wish he would have done both with Spring Garden Keeper(28 lbs) so I could rub it in to Keith but I am not sure it was the case.

At that time I am not sure he was doing horseback and he does very little coverdog stuff these days.

I talked to Frank Lanasa a while back and he just has no interest in dual campaigning of dogs.


Chuck Wingard placed a derby in the coverdog stakes over here recently.


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## Jay Johnson

"I talked to Frank Lanasa a while back and he just has no interest in dual campaigning of dogs."

Yeah but he had a liver and white female pointer out of Wahoo Trouble Doc breeding that I am pretty sure he did it with. A dog named "Trouble" I think. I am certain she placed or won in the horseback venue and I think she was a winner or runner up in the National Am Grouse Championship but then again maybe I am just dreaming this stuff up. 

Same goes for Chuck Ahmann with his great female setter Saturday Night Lacy. She placed or won in local horseback trials and was competitive in the grouse woods. Again, I think she was a RU-CH in the Nat Am Grouse.


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## Merimac

Jay Johnson said:


> "I talked to Frank Lanasa a while back and he just has no interest in dual campaigning of dogs."
> 
> Yeah but he had a liver and white female pointer out of Wahoo Trouble Doc breeding that I am pretty sure he did it with. A dog named "Trouble" I think. I am certain she placed or won in the horseback venue and I think she was a winner or runner up in the National Am Grouse Championship but then again maybe I am just dreaming this stuff up.
> 
> Same goes for Chuck Ahmann with his great female setter Saturday Night Lacy. She placed or won in local horseback trials and was competitive in the grouse woods. Again, I think she was a RU-CH in the Nat Am Grouse.


Nothing shocks me about Mr. Lanasa. Class act guy with class act dogs. I would have to say he is a very good judge of dog talent.

Ben


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## Flash01

I just reread this entire thread... much interesting and thought provoking conversation. I have one main question.

Does anyone else find it strange that crosswind makes time to sit around and watch fat kids run to the ice cream truck?


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## Blue Briar

Flash01 said:


> I just reread this entire thread... much interesting and thought provoking conversation. I have one main question.
> 
> Does anyone else find it strange that crosswind makes time to sit around and watch fat kids run to the ice cream truck?


I do, That is just wierd. How does he find the time to train dogs? :lol:

PS He only does it while heel and whoa breaking dogs down the road.


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## Duece22

midwestfisherman said:


> I don't think I was speaking to you!


I don't think he was speaking to you either. Based on the wording of the post I believe he was attempting to,place a bet on the situation you proposed. 

If it is still open I will throw a Benjamin in Linda's favor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Steelheadfred

Linda G. said:


> No offense, but I don't do death marches, as I've said before, I'm not interested in seeing how many miles I can cover in an hour as hunting to me is not a race, nor is it a competition, as I've said before. And to be honest, if I really wanted to hunt with you, I would have gotten in touch a long time ago.


 
Linda,

I am not offended, Ric and I have a program, one that we seem to do OK in. In the end though, you get out of something what you put in. My program is how I prefer to hunt, your program is yours, we both seem to do OK. Just don't knock someone elses program because they find far more birds than you, and do it in an ethical manner. 

As a side note, I was placing a bet on you vs. the internet expert Midwestfisherman, I take your field time and knowledge over his internet time. So I was not so much asking you to hunt, but trying to make a joke and say that I was willing to pick a spot where you guys can both put down your dogs, then you can collect Jim's $100 bucks an hour later. I have more confidence in you and your dog as a hunter then Midwestfisherman who seems to now want to back out of putting his money where his mouth is. 

Jim, if anyone in the world needed a slow, huge, plodding Setter to hunt behind I would think it would be you.


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## N M Mechanical

So after almost 300 post have we decided what dog he needs to breed to


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## kek25

I have a nice average setter that should produce some nice average offspring that any self-respecting bird hunter would be proud to own.


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## crosswind

Might want to try WCh's rescue pointer. The results will be just about as unpredictable as crossing it with a Ryman.


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## Dave Medema

> So after almost 300 post have we decided what dog he needs to breed to....


I'll repeat myself from earlier in the thread.



Dave Medema said:


> I have a setter via Fireside kennels and may consider breeding him. He runs hard and fast, finds birds, and is a joy in the house. He's now 4yo and seems to be getting better every year. In the back of my mind, I keep thinking there are lots of great setters available and question why should I breed mine. The short answer is he simply finds birds, has a great pedigree, and I like him.
> 
> A few pics:
> Head shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sons first grouse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A nice 2 hour hunt.


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## chewy

why didn't you dock that brittanies tail?


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## Dave Medema

chewy said:


> why didn't you dock that brittanies tail?


I couldn't catch him.


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## chewy

good one


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## Grange

tailcrackin said:


> I didn't think of beeline brittanies. nolans last bullet
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you havent had many of bullet pups in your kennel, there has been more aggression out of that dog, doesnt matter male or female, but will carry and show a whole lot of fight, in an out of the kennel.
> Be better of with some of the "Just call me Roy" dog. He has an will produce every sort of venue that the public will play in, along with no aggression, and a want to for pleasing you. Some of the "beans blaze" blood works out very well also, and is a real strong producer of good stout all around dogs that will play in any venue. Thanks Jonesy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chewy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't own brittanies. just giving wch an example of a nstra breeding that has offspring in af events.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am very familiar with 4 brittanies (sire and dam and their two female puppies) that have a lot of Nolan's Last Bullet. One of them is from Beeline brittanies. Three of the four Gr. Grand Sires of the puppies are Nolan's Last Bullet. The dam (from Beeline Brittanies) has two placements in AF Walking Am. Shooting Dog. The two female puppies received a 2nd and 3rd placements in an AF Walking Open Puppy trial at 6 months old while being handled by first time handlers.
> 
> NSTRA dogs can and do trial successfully in AF if given the chance. I'm actually really lobbying hard to get the owners to allow me run one or both of the puppies in a cover dog puppy trial this coming spring.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## midwestfisherman

Steelheadfred said:


> Linda,
> 
> I am not offended, Ric and I have a program, one that we seem to do OK in. In the end though, you get out of something what you put in. My program is how I prefer to hunt, your program is yours, we both seem to do OK. Just don't knock someone elses program because they find far more birds than you, and do it in an ethical manner.
> 
> As a side note, I was placing a bet on you vs. the internet expert Midwestfisherman, I take your field time and knowledge over his internet time. So I was not so much asking you to hunt, but trying to make a joke and say that I was willing to pick a spot where you guys can both put down your dogs, then you can collect Jim's $100 bucks an hour later. I have more confidence in you and your dog as a hunter then Midwestfisherman who seems to now want to back out of putting his money where his mouth is.
> 
> Jim, if anyone in the world needed a slow, huge, plodding Setter to hunt behind I would think it would be you.


Fritz, Go ahead and keep taking pot shots from behind your keyboard. Your act is old and I could care less what you think or have to say.


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## Steelheadfred

midwestfisherman said:


> Fritz, Go ahead and keep taking pot shots from behind your keyboard. Your act is old and I could care less what you think or have to say.


 
Jim,

Good, I mean really good. All your advice on these forums comes from behind your key board, not on the ground experience. That is the act that is old.

So I tell you what, Linda does not want to take you up on your bet, lets put your trial dogs down against my dogs in the same spot, let's put a C note on it, you can pick the spot, dog with the most finds wins, your dogs have to point for you to flush, my dogs have to work the bird and show game before the flush. Are you ready to step out from behind your key board?


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## midwestfisherman

Fritz,

Oh sure, I've never run my dogs, hunted my dogs, trained my dogs, or placed my dogs in anything right? You're soooo full of it. I guess all of the hours on the road, trips to the woods, to field trials, training with friends and alone, the ribbons hanging on my wall, and the people who have hunted behind my dogs are just figments of my imagination. I put a lot of time and effort into training my dogs.

I don't know what your problem is with me but I'm real tired of your continual sniping. You don't know me or anything about me so quit showing your ignorance and stick to talking about something that you know about. You're smug and real brave setting behind your keyboard dispensing your opinions and insults. I have nothing to prove to you, so you can keep your self important opinions to yourself.

My post to Linda is between me and Linda. I don't care to associate with you in any way.

BTW, I put my money where my mouth is every time I enter my dogs in a trial. I believe in my dogs and their abilities thus I have no issue putting a c-note on the line to run them. That's generally what it costs to run a dog in a championship.


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## Steelheadfred

midwestfisherman said:


> BTW, I put my money where my mouth is every time I enter my dogs in a trial. I believe in my dogs and their abilities thus I have no issue putting a c-note on the line to run them. That's generally what it costs to run a dog in a championship.


You double your career take on grouse to two yet Jim?:lol:

Name the time and place and we can do this.


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## midwestfisherman

Actually I've more than doubled it. Thanks for asking.

Now go crawl back under your rock.


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## Worm Dunker

21 pages and at least 20 of them nothing to due with the question.








[/IMG]

He's still available and God knows I need the money!!!!!


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## chewy

Looks like a false point. lol so typical with setters lol


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## Linda G.

You guys are still at it?? 

I gave up on this discussion several days ago before I really opened my mouth...what post, Midwest? C'mon up...I'll be out this weekend, barring three feet of snow, but I'll hunt in up to a foot or so, which is what we'll probably get. The problem is not walking through the snow for me, I have shoes, the problem is finding a cover that's safe for the dogs that's not right on the highway. I can drive the two tracks through about a foot, but won't push even my 4x4 in anything deeper than that, it's way too far back to walk if you get stuck...

Anyhow, the poor guy who started this thread once upon a time is looking at a couple of breeders now, he's made his decision...so this can end any time, it will only get worse, anyway. 

Damn I'm glad deer season is over...we did good this year, got three, but don't tell the guys over on the deer forum that, there will be another war...two does and a 5 point...heaven forbid...

and to think this all started over a guy who made a crass remark...LOL

Fritz, just to be straight I have all kinds of admiration for you and your awesome Labs. I tell people that Labs can hunt upland perfectly well and the first person I tell them about is you. I just don't like the race, and I don't really care to hunt my pointing dog with flushers too much. My son comes up with his Lab, but Knight stays at a heel until needed or until I put Cody in the truck. They tend to fight over who's going to retrieve the bird...

There is no such thing as a false point...just dogs who stayed on point so long waiting for their puffing and panting owners to catch up that the bird walked away, and all kinds of people who think they know more about the situation than the dog does.


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## chewy

shoot more does please.


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## chewy

There is no such thing as a false point...just dogs who stayed on point so long waiting for their puffing and panting owners to catch up that the bird walked away, and all kinds of people who think they know more about the situation than the dog does.[/QUOTE]

oh my. a dog who points old scent or points for no reAson happens a ton. I see it all the time. and to be honest it seems that setters do it the most. 
I don't know why maybe their overwilliness to please. sensitive nose or afraid to screw up.


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## kellyM87

Worm Dunker said:


> 21 pages and at least 20 of them nothing to due with the question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> He's still available and God knows I need the money!!!!!


 
BEAUTIFUL SETTER!!!! ( I love my setters!)


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## dallasdog

sent you an email... camera was no good but you get the "point" hes available


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## chewy

bump


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## Unregistered4

Steelheadfred said:


> Name the time and place and we can do this.


I'll take a piece of this...

This weekend, at a location disclosed in a PM, and the winner washes dishes for the season for the loser.

Brian.


----------

