# Why do trail permits cost $45 per machine?



## cstoia714

I'm just asking this question because $45 per machine seems steep to me. Since we have to pay the trail permit every year, do you think the 3 year registration should be eliminated such that its all incorporated into a yearly fee just like a license plate? Seems like the state is wasting our money putting two different stickers on our machines.


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## ih772

I'd like to see the three year registration go away.


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## SalmonBum

You wanna stop by the groomer shack and fill up the tractor for them? Didn't think so. THAT's why they are $45. Colorado doesn't have a registration and permit. Its a flat rate $30.25 a yr. But then they don't run groomers either.


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## YZman

Get rid of groomers, might slow sleds down. I know I enjoyed sledding more in the '70's and '80's.

Even though I don't ride lakes, I think its not fair that anyone riding non-groomed areas (i.e. lake) is required to purchase a permit.


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## SalmonBum

If your just on a lake, you do not need a permit


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## Burksee

SalmonBum said:


> If your just on a lake, you do not need a permit


Sorry but unless you're using the snowmobile strictly for icefishing you DO NEED one for riding on a lake! And this is the part that kills me, unless I'm on private property whether or not I ride on a groomed trail I need that $45.00 a year sticker. :sad:


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## SalmonBum

Burksee said:


> Sorry but unless you're using the snowmobile strictly for icefishing you DO NEED one for riding on a lake! And this is the part that kills me, unless I'm on private property whether or not I ride on a groomed trail I need that $45.00 a year sticker. :sad:


Hmmm... didnt know that. I don't know anyone that uses a sled just to cruise a lake. I know a few ppl that have them soley for Ice Fishing, in which they do not have a trail sticker.


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## ih772

Lots of people that live on large inland lakes only use their sleds on them, especially if there aren't any trails connected to it or near by.


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## YZman

When you ride down seasonal roads, you've already paid for your registration and road tax via the gas tax; just like a motor vehicle.

<sarcasm>
Hey! Maybe they should force all of us to buy a "road permit" because they plow the roads.
<end of sarcasm>

Really shouldn't give them any ideas.


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## MEL

SalmonBum said:


> Hmmm... didnt know that. I don't know anyone that uses a sled just to cruise a lake. I know a few ppl that have them soley for Ice Fishing, in which they do not have a trail sticker.



For ice fishing you do not need a permit. As long as your using it for ice fishing purposes. If your caught burning up the ice in your new 120mph ski doo with no poles, augers, shanty or associated gear dont be suprised if you get a ticket!!!


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## Greenbush future

Lake St. Clair is loaded with sleds that are ripping (right through the ice fishing too) all over the place, and yes they write tickets for almost everyone they see out there. It's rare to see anyone who just drives to/from the truck while ice fishing with a sled. Any why wouldn't you take a rip? I would agree that the systems could use a new plan that covers all of this in a registration. I think they screwed up when they called them trail permits, because they are required for much more than that.


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## cstoia714

I think we are paying too much between registration and trail permits per machine. Pretty hard for a family to enjoy the one or two weekends they can get out when they get hit with $135.00 for three machines. Add gasoline costs (also taxed), plus your registration fees. If grooming costs this much, someone needs to take a better look at how those funds are being spent.


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## Burksee

cstoia714 said:


> I think we are paying too much between registration and trail permits per machine. Pretty hard for a family to enjoy the one or two weekends they can get out when they get hit with $135.00 for three machines. Add gasoline costs (also taxed), plus your registration fees. If grooming costs this much, someone needs to take a better look at how those funds are being spent.


X2!  

I know _*at least *_75% of the riding we do is on the lake, seasonal roads and trails that never see a groomer or a snow plow. I've got three sleds, all 2001's, the one with the highest mileage has almost 1500 miles on it. You can do the math, for the couple/three months we may be able to ride it's getting absolutely ridicules. Looking at getting into quads, We'll get more months of riding, more miles to ride and an ORV sticker is only $16.25!


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## Burksee

MEL said:


> For ice fishing you do not need a permit. As long as your using it for ice fishing purposes. If your caught burning up the ice in your new 120mph ski doo with no poles, augers, shanty or associated gear dont be suprised if you get a ticket!!!


Maybe I'll try putting a Schooley in/on each of the sleds and wave it at the CO when I drive by! Better yet just pull the jet sled around with us with some icefishing equip and tell'em I'm going from one lake to another! :yikes: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Crazy Axe

Maybe they should just roll it into your vehicle license plate like they did the recreation passes :idea:


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## Magnet

It's more than just grooming. Signage, bridges, and alot of trails are built on a grade and are maintained and improved in the off season. Along with the extra trail enforcement and their machines that are required to keep the rider's sanity in check, which makes it safer for everyone. That ain't free.


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## bigcountrysg

Simple solution, you take the trail permit, and the registration and combine them. State gets 10% of the registration money the Trails get 90% and the people who own sleds save money. Just make the registration 90 dollars for 3 years.


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## ih772

bigcountrysg said:


> Simple solution, you take the trail permit, and the registration and combine them. State gets 10% of the registration money the Trails get 90% and the people who own sleds save money. Just make the registration 90 dollars for 3 years.


I never ride on the trails, why should I pay for something I don't use?


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## Chad1981

Ya we have 5 sleds. Bull **** $45 per sled... You need them on trails and the road.. 

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## bowhunter426

My biggest problem with it all, besides the fact I have to pay registration and a trail permit, is the fact that the money from our trail permit went to pave sections of snowmobile trails so they are easier to walk on. Now that they are paved, they cannot be ridden on unless someone deems there to be enough snow so the pavement isn't damaged by our big bad snowmobiles. 

Also, it will most likely increase again in 2015. I will gladly pay the additional for the trail permit if it makes the trails better. In the grand scheme of things, $45 per sled is nothing.


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## sanfordlake

I payed my $45 bucks to ride 50 miles at Tip-Up town. Drove by a DNR officer and he looked at my sticker that payed for it. I ride the state land in Sanford its the only thing that's allowed to(snowmobile) with my trail sticker. I can ride my quad on the side of the road in midland county but not my snowmobile! Law enforcement gets to big a cut of the $45 that's why its so much! Just my rant about it.


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## MossyHorns

It won't be long (1 or 2 years) and ORV's will be paying for a trail pass and a regristration fee like snowmobiles. I snowmobile and ride atv's in Lake County and they use the same trail groomers for snowmobile trails and ORV trails. With the lack of grooming this year there should be a lot of money left over from the trail passes.


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## cstoia714

MossyHorns said:


> With the lack of grooming this year there should be a lot of money left over from the trail passes.


Are they going to issue refunds?


....didn't think so.


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## Buddwiser

Spend a few thousand bucks on a machine (maybe alot more) then complain about a 45 dollar sticker?


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## Burksee

Buddwiser said:


> Spend a few thousand bucks on a machine (maybe alot more) then complain about a 45 dollar sticker?


Whats the difference what the machine costs? So what? I bought the machines and they're paid for, I dont have to keep paying for them when I want to use them. We're talking about getting charged for something that a very small percentage of the people actually use.


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## ih772

Buddwiser said:


> Spend a few thousand bucks on a machine (maybe alot more) then complain about a 45 dollar sticker?


Lots of us spend less than $700.


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## cstoia714

Buddwiser said:


> Spend a few thousand bucks on a machine (maybe alot more) then complain about a 45 dollar sticker?


Sorry, I don't follow your logic. Lets see how you feel when the state wants you to pay for say a $500.00 "road permit" for your vehicle to fix the roads. They require that on every one of your vehicles even that classic you only drive once or twice per year.

To me the logic behind the trail permit is no different. Flawed.


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## Buddwiser

ih772 said:


> Lots of us spend less than $700.


I know......I paid $500 for mine and I don't think 45 bucks is a lot to pay for the use of the trails. If there were no fees involved for the maintaining of the trails, equipment for doing so, and although I don't think it happens much, access to the land for trails, the money would have to come from somewhere, more than likely the general fund. Then you would have all those who don't participate in the sport complaining that their taxes is going for something THEY don't use and theres a whole lot more of them than there is of those who use them. The trails have to be maintained and unless those who ride them volunteer to do so, and that means paying for the groomers and the upkeep and fuel (and that aint gonna happen) theres no choice but to pay.


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## Buddwiser

cstoia714 said:


> Sorry, I don't follow your logic. Lets see how you feel when the state wants you to pay for say a $500.00 "road permit" for your vehicle to fix the roads. They require that on every one of your vehicles even that classic you only drive once or twice per year.
> 
> To me the logic behind the trail permit is no different. Flawed.


Sorry, but I don't follow YOUR logic. What 500 buck road permit is in effect now? And in case you didn't know it, we already pay a tax folded into the price of gas for road upkeep but I don't hear or read of too many complaining about that except for the recent news Snyder wants to increase it. And I don't own a classic vehicle so your point is moot but I guess if I wanted to own and drive one, I'd pay it. If I can afford the toy, I can afford the costs that go with it.


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## bowhunter426

MossyHorns said:


> It won't be long (1 or 2 years) and ORV's will be paying for a trail pass and a regristration fee like snowmobiles. I snowmobile and ride atv's in Lake County and they use the same trail groomers for snowmobile trails and ORV trails. With the lack of grooming this year there should be a lot of money left over from the trail passes.


You are required to have an ORV permit to ride on a trail or public property



sanfordlake said:


> Law enforcement gets to big a cut of the $45 that's why its so much! Just my rant about it.


Of the $45, $1.00 goes to the sales agent, $0.50 goes to the DNR for admin costs and the remainder when into the trail improvement fund. Your registration, $30 every 3 years, goes to law enforcement. 

For the 2010-2011 Season over 7 million was spent on trail maintenance, and 5.5 million was generated by trail permit sales. The remainder was covered a fund generated by 2% of the tax on gasoline. 



Buddwiser said:


> If I can afford the toy, I can afford the costs that go with it.


Agreed, My 3 day trail permit for Ontario was $100. A permit for the full season is $250. You gotta pay to play.


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## MossyHorns

I don't think it's fair that orv's get to ride the groomed snowmobile/orv tails in Lake County near Club 37 in the winter without having to have a trail pass.


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## ih772

Buddwiser said:


> I know......I paid $500 for mine and I don't think 45 bucks is a lot to pay for the use of the trails. If there were no fees involved for the maintaining of the trails, equipment for doing so, and although I don't think it happens much, access to the land for trails, the money would have to come from somewhere, more than likely the general fund. Then you would have all those who don't participate in the sport complaining that their taxes is going for something THEY don't use and theres a whole lot more of them than there is of those who use them. The trails have to be maintained and unless those who ride them volunteer to do so, and that means paying for the groomers and the upkeep and fuel (and that aint gonna happen) theres no choice but to pay.


I don't ride on trails, I ride on lakes. Where are the groomed trails on the lakes I ride on?


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## MossyHorns

bowhunter426 said:


> You are required to have an ORV permit to ride on a trail or public property
> 
> I know that you need a $16.25 orv sticker, which is pocket change when compared to a snowmobile ($30.00 registration fee for 3 years and $45 for a trail pass). I have read that orv stickers will be going up.
> 
> $45 for a trail pass is not too bad, but it does add up when you have 3 sleds to buy for.


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## bowhunter426

MossyHorns said:


> I don't think it's fair that orv's get to ride the groomed snowmobile/orv tails in Lake County near Club 37 in the winter without having to have a trail pass.


They are required to have a trail pass, but because they are not a snowmobile, they need an ORV permit, at a significantly reduced price.


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## cstoia714

Buddwiser said:


> Sorry, but I don't follow YOUR logic. What 500 buck road permit is in effect now? And in case you didn't know it, we already pay a tax folded into the price of gas for road upkeep but I don't hear or read of too many complaining about that except for the recent news Snyder wants to increase it. And I don't own a classic vehicle so your point is moot but I guess if I wanted to own and drive one, I'd pay it. If I can afford the toy, I can afford the costs that go with it.


You should take some time to read and comprehend. I was citing an example of what could happen with our vehicles. In case you missed it, the gasoline tax is not keeping up with the monetary needs of our roads.

If you want to keep paying more and more fees, congratulations. I'm sure Lansing loves you.

I'd like to return to my original point. Why are trail permits so much? and Why are we putting two different stickers on our machines? Could we not save some administrative costs by rolling all this into the 3 year registration?


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## Burksee

ih772 said:


> I don't ride on trails, I ride on lakes. Where are the groomed trails on the lakes I ride on?


Exactly the whole point. If we used the "groomed trails" I'd be OK having to pay to play but in this case it's just about the state making sure that just about everyone who owns a snowmobile gets to help pay for something that only a few in comparision actually use them. :sad:


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## Burksee

bowhunter426 said:


> They are required to have a trail pass, but because they are not a snowmobile, they need an ORV permit, at a significantly reduced price.


Many of the trails are marked for snowmobiles only, closed to ATV/Wheeled vehicle traffic when there's snow on those trails. Get caught riding an ATV on those trails with or without a ORV sticker will get you a ticket/fine.


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## bowhunter426

Burksee said:


> Many of the trails are marked for snowmobiles only, closed to ATV/Wheeled vehicle traffic when there's snow on those trails. Get caught riding an ATV on those trails with or without a ORV sticker will get you a ticket/fine.


The trails by club 37 are orv trails. Snow covered or not, orv's can use them if they have an orv permit.


As for why permits cost $45, the answer is posted above. Not enough revenue was being generated at the old rates to cover costs.

We arw putting 2 different stickers on because one covers law enforcement and the other covers trail maintenance


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## sourdough44

Yes groomers are expensive. I started in the 70's in the U.P., no or few groomers then. In WI once your machine is registered you are covered for any trail riding. You only need a trail permit if you bring in an out of state machine.

I may make it to the U.P. yet this winter, later Feb. I am contemplating if I will bring my machine or just borrow one from a relative. Just like taxes with waterfront property I wouldn't expect much sympathy. They say, 'if one can afford a $12,000 machine they can pay $45'. Of course most of our machines are less than the 12k.

Up to $55 next year I think. Let's see if this brings in more $$?


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## STG8008

Believe they wont be $55 untill 2015


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## sourdough44

Not that MI has to follow the Badger State, but that's how WI does it, once you register you are covered for the trails. Just tweak the registration fees to cover trail costs.


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## speedway2899

$45.00 for two times out riding= 600 miles... I got pimped this year


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## NittanyDoug

Never got out and never bought a permit. Never took the cover off. 

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## duckman#1

I have asked a CO if I need a trial permit to use my sled for ice fishing and he said YES! I see some of you have said a trail permit is NOT needed? Whats the real scoop? Example: If I trailer my sled to a launch at Muskegon lake and unload it and ride straight on the lake, ride out to a spot and fish, do I need a permit or not???????? 
I do not ride trails. I only use the sled for ice fishing. I would really like to read the law on this and not leave it up to a co's "opinion".


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## MEL

duckman#1 said:


> I have asked a CO if I need a trial permit to use my sled for ice fishing and he said YES! I see some of you have said a trail permit is NOT needed? Whats the real scoop? Example: If I trailer my sled to a launch at Muskegon lake and unload it and ride straight on the lake, ride out to a spot and fish, do I need a permit or not????????
> I do not ride trails. I only use the sled for ice fishing. I would really like to read the law on this and not leave it up to a co's "opinion".




This was taken right off the DNR snowmobile web page: You will like the last sentence!!! Let me know what the CO says when you show this to him ok? 

"Snowmobiles are exempt from registration and having a trail permit if they are: 

operated exclusively on lands owned or under the control of the owner.
used entirely in a safety education program conducted by a certified snowmobile safety instructor.
operated exclusively in a special event of limited duration which is conducted according to a prearranged schedule under a permit from the governmental unit having proper jurisdiction.

In addition, a snowmobile used solely for transportation on the frozen surface of public waters for ice fishing is exempt from the trail sticker requirement, but must still be registered."

Again its right off the DNR Snowmobile web page....


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## duckman#1

Thank you! That clears it up.


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