# Is anyone else out there confused about this new E15 fuel?



## LGB (9 mo ago)

sureshot006 said:


> Maybe you don't use your boat enough.


Doubtful. All I know is the ethanol disintegrated my fuel filter leaving debris in my fuel from it. Caused issues. The mechanic told me to use rec fuel. I thought he was nuts so I stuck with it and had the same problem the following year. Once I started using non-ethanol, the issues ended. Guess he wasn't nuts after all. It's an 07 Merc OptiMax 115. The mechanic said the newer motors can run it with additive but the older ones cannot. Not sure what using it enough is defined as. If using the 36 gallons that the tank holds Everytime I use the boat so no ethanol remains in the system when it's stored, Nope, I don't use it enough.


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## Scout 2 (Dec 31, 2004)

This what happens to the older motors. The rubber fuel lines on them cannot handle the blended fuels and it will eat the hoses up./ They first get real soft and black cap comes off in your hand then they start breaking down inside running junk into your engine. I bought a boay with a 60 hp Yamaha motor the they used this fuel in it. I had to change all the fuel lines and the filter as it was full of black crap. I was lucky that none of it went past the filter. CG said it will make the engines run hotter causing a melt down. I believe the warning said it illegal to use in water craft also


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## scooter_trasher (Sep 19, 2005)

Funny how 100 years ago everything was capable of running on pure alcohol and did regularly due to the lack of availability of gasoline in rural areas, we got away from alcohol due to the cost, today in a time of claimed worldwide food shortages,our government subsidizes ADM to the point that a much more expensive fuel that burns less efficient, burns dirty, and damages fuel systems is somehow cheaper and if you don't want any blended in it costs an arm and a leg. There is no excuse for building a fuel system that wont tolerate alcohol , we've always had the technology I have a 1939 Harley and a 1954 chriscraft outboard that will run fine on alcohol and I'm sure we have the technology to use an additive to balance the ph in alcohol so that it isn't corrosive, homeowners do that with their pool water on a regular basis. We might as well deal with the fact that like the meat producers and every other aspect of the American way of life , the powersports industry is under attack and without a fight it will be gone.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

LGB said:


> Doubtful. All I know is the ethanol disintegrated my fuel filter leaving debris in my fuel from it. Caused issues. The mechanic told me to use rec fuel. I thought he was nuts so I stuck with it and had the same problem the following year. Once I started using non-ethanol, the issues ended. Guess he wasn't nuts after all. It's an 07 Merc OptiMax 115. The mechanic said the newer motors can run it with additive but the older ones cannot. Not sure what using it enough is defined as. If using the 36 gallons that the tank holds Everytime I use the boat so no ethanol remains in the system when it's stored, Nope, I don't use it enough.


Weird. Mine is a 1999 2 stroke merc and I've had zero problems. Starts like a champ, too. That's despite most people saying they suck to start. They were made compatible with low concentrations of ethanol since what... late 80's or early 90's? Just don't let it sit for too long in humidity to pick up water.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

sureshot006 said:


> Weird. Mine is a 1999 2 stroke merc and I've had zero problems. Starts like a champ, too. That's despite most people saying they suck to start. They were made compatible with low concentrations of ethanol since what... late 80's or early 90's? Just don't let it sit for too long in humidity to pick up water.


Well, some people are lucky and some not so much. I only did what the tech recommended after not listening to him. My problems ended after that. I'm good with rec fuel.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

LGB said:


> Well, some people are lucky and some not so much. I only did what the tech recommended after not listening to him. My problems ended after that. I'm good with rec fuel.


I guess. Chemistry isn't luck though.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## piketroller (Oct 24, 2016)

DirtySteve said:


> I am confused about it too. The articels i read state that this new legislation allows e15 to be sold in the summers not just winter months. I have seen e15 at pumps when traveling in other states. I cant say I have ever seen it in michigan. Does it even affect us here outside of better corn prices for farmers?
> 
> The other thing I dont get is why was higher ethanol allowed only in wiinter months? I have always thought it was better to use higher ethanol in the summers because if the moisture issues with ethanol in cold weather. Is it a higher burning temperature issue for summer? If so how can legislators determine it is safe?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S901U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


The fuel restrictions during the summer are all about evaporative emissions. The EPA doesn't give a flip about whether or not you trash your engine. Less volative fuel is required during the warm months, and that's why we switch to a summer gasoline blend then. The winter blend is cheaper, but it is more volatile.


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## Sharkbait11 (Apr 7, 2017)

sureshot006 said:


> I don't think ANY outboards are rated for e15. Check your manual.


good call, nope just as Erik posted, my manual says only up to 10% and if its more ot can void warranty and also says if you must use gas with unknown or higher than 10 to increase inspection. I was thinking I would need to get rec. gas but as long as they dont switch up to E15 at my local gas stations it should be fine. 


Erik said:


> According to mercury FAQs.
> 
> "Fuels containing up to 10 percent ethanol are considered acceptable for use in Mercury engines. Fuels containing higher levels of ethanol, such as E15 gasoline, are not considered acceptable for use. The use of fuels containing more than 10 percent ethanol can void the warranty."
> 
> ...


Thanks man good info, I found that in my manual as well. No E15 for me thanks.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

Ethanol free fuel is the answer to never having fuel related issues with a marine motor. I paid 4.74 per gallon for it last week VS 4.59 for unleaded. If .15 is too much more to spend, I probably should sell my boat and buy a kayak.


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## ETW (May 18, 2020)

LGB said:


> Ethanol free fuel is the answer to never having fuel related issues with a marine motor. I paid 4.74 per gallon for it last week VS 4.59 for unleaded. If .15 is too much more to spend, I probably should sell my boat and buy a kayak.


I'd love to know where you get Rec Fuel for .15 more than unleaded. Here Livingston County its a LOT more. If it were even only 20 - 30 cents more I'd be using it all the time. Must be nice.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

ETW said:


> I know for a fact what ethanol does to small engine fuel systems. I've rebuilt many carbs and replaced rotten fuel lines for years. And I also have a pretty serious suspicion that what is labeled at the pump is probably not what's coming out of the nozzle when I pump it. Do you trust the oil companies and the distributors? I surely do not. So, I mean I like the idea of religiously running ethanol free in my boat but it is just not practical and now it really is not affordable. With the economy the way it is I have a lot of other costs to balance besides fuel in the fishing boat. I'm not giving up my fishing so something has to give. That usually means that I try and save some $ at the pump. But, I know I'll have to pay for it down the road.


Never used rec gas and never had a problem. Boat, car/truck, many small engine lawn equipment. Boat stored outdoors even in winter under a canopy. This spring gas was still in the boat since Sept. started and ran just great. Have recently filled up.

As many know I get gas at Kroger and looked and they don't even have e85. Nor do they have rec gas.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

ETW said:


> I'd love to know where you get Rec Fuel for .15 more than unleaded. Here Livingston County its a LOT more. If it were even only 20 - 30 cents more I'd be using it all the time. Must be nice.


It's always been more than unleaded. Most times much more for me also. This year with high gas prices, it hasn't moved nearly as much as unleaded fuel costs have. Two years ago I paid .70 more per gallon for it. Last year .50. This year in the UP, we found it at numerous stations for only .15-.25 more per gallon.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

sureshot006 said:


> Weird. Mine is a 1999 2 stroke merc and I've had zero problems. Starts like a champ, too. That's despite most people saying they suck to start. They were made compatible with low concentrations of ethanol since what... late 80's or early 90's? Just don't let it sit for too long in humidity to pick up water.


Mine is also 1999 2 stroke. 125 hp. Still original gas line hoses. Fuel filter changed once 3 years ago.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> Mine is also 1999 2 stroke. 125 hp.


I've heard of this by many. I can only respond by acting on my own experiences with my equipment.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

LGB said:


> I've heard of this by many. I can only respond by acting on my own experiences with my equipment.


Thats what most here do.
Got to be a difference in storage and other conditions to get different results.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> Thats what most here do.
> Got to be a difference in storage and other conditions to get different results.


Yep. My boat is stored in my attached heated/cooled garage. Can't be a better temp controlled environment for it. Still, my problems were many when using 10% ethanol fuel. Fluke ? Maybe but after the second one, it's non-ethanol only. In fact, I use it in my big generator and log splitter as well. Lawn mower, quad, SxS and tractor still gets unleaded 10% ethanol as they seem to run perfectly with it. I burn all the fuel from my lawn mower after the last cutting. Items that still for long periods without use have a tank full of rec fuel.


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## textox (Jan 30, 2020)

sureshot006 said:


> Weird. Mine is a 1999 2 stroke merc and I've had zero problems. Starts like a champ, too. That's despite most people saying they suck to start. They were made compatible with low concentrations of ethanol since what... late 80's or early 90's? Just don't let it sit for too long in humidity to pick up water.


My '89' Classic 50 Mercury has run 87 octane pump gas since new and only had 1 fuel issue,Broke nitrile inlet needle tip
on bottom carb. I attributed that to a detour on a bumpy wash board road while trailering to a far away fishing destination. Don't keep old gas in your tank over winter storage and try to use pump gas up in at least a few months before refueling.I do use Stabil Marine fuel treatment but only started that 3 years ago.I also use Amsoil 2 stroke oil at 100 to 1and have for 6 years
and that engine starts super fast !.....


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

I use a can of seafoam per tank of fuel when it's stored. I fill the tank in fall and add the seafoam prior to filling up. Run the engine so the fuel/seafoam works thru the fuel lines and it's stored. It's been my boat regiment for the last few years.


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## textox (Jan 30, 2020)

LGB said:


> I use a can of seafoam per tank of fuel when it's stored. I fill the tank in fall and add the seafoam prior to filling up. Run the engine so the fuel/seafoam works thru the fuel lines and it's stored. It's been my boat regiment for the last few years.


 I Fog with Sea Foam when winterizing...


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## -db- (Jan 12, 2016)

lol AI bots


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> Thats what most here do.
> Got to be a difference in storage and other conditions to get different results.


Particularly considering the original Mercury fuel filter assembly specifically says it is "Compatible with ethanol gasoline blends".


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

kappa8 said:


> Alcohol dissolves rubber, and there's the problem.


Which alcohol, and which rubber?

Ethanol is actually completely compatible with natural rubber (isoprene, neoprene, EPR, SBR, Butyl, etc.)

Ethanol is a problem with nitrile rubber.

...but no modern fuel hoses are nitrile rubber.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

pescadero said:


> Which alcohol, and which rubber?
> 
> Ethanol is actually completely compatible with natural rubber (isoprene, neoprene, EPR, SBR, Butyl, etc.)
> 
> ...


Ethanol fuel ruined rubber and plastic components in the fuel delivery system on my Mercury OptiMax. No question about it. It happened twice and I wasn't going thru it a third time. Switched to Non-Ethanol fuel and haven't had the problem since. In the attached article, ethanol does much more damage than just plastic/rubber dissolving.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

pescadero said:


> Which alcohol, and which rubber?
> 
> Ethanol is actually completely compatible with natural rubber (isoprene, neoprene, EPR, SBR, Butyl, etc.)
> 
> ...


Same fuel lines on my boat since 1999.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

My fuel lines were not damaged. Fuel filter was in pieces tho. Dissolved it into small chunks. Fuel water separator was damaged as well.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

pescadero said:


> Particularly considering the original Mercury fuel filter assembly specifically says it is "Compatible with ethanol gasoline blends".


I have always wondered if people were replacing filters with new that are incompatible.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> Same fuel lines on my boat since 1999.


Same here.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

LGB said:


> My fuel lines were not damaged. Fuel filter was in pieces tho. Dissolved it into small chunks. Fuel water separator was damaged as well.


Original filter?

Curious Why it happened to you twice but a bunch of us here haven't had that experience, at all. Did you put e85 in it thinking the inverse ratio of gasoline to ethanol?


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

sureshot006 said:


> I have always wondered if people were replacing filters with new that are incompatible.


I purchase non-OEM filters but they are model specific. They fit my engine model but may not be as good as the Merc OEM filters. I'm sure the degradation of the fuel system parts is partially my fault as I didn't add any fuel additive at that time when storing my boat. With Rec Fuel, that's not needed. Even tho when i store the boat I add seafoam, it's not going to ruin any fuel system parts if I don't. The ethanol did that damage and it may have helped the issue if I added fuel treatment. Something I won't do ever again.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

LGB said:


> I purchase non-OEM filters but they are model specific. They fit my engine model but may not be as good as the Merc OEM filters. I'm sure the degradation of the fuel system parts is partially my fault as I didn't add any fuel additive at that time when storing my boat. With Rec Fuel, that's not needed. Even tho when i store the boat I add seafoam, it's not going to ruin any fuel system parts if I don't. The ethanol did that damage and it may have helped the issue if I added fuel treatment. Something I won't do ever again.


I bet your filter wasn't compatible. Fuel treatment doesn't remove or convert ethanol anyway.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

LGB said:


> Ethanol fuel ruined rubber and plastic components in the fuel delivery system on my Mercury OptiMax. No question about it.


There is definitely a question about it.

An engine rated to run ethanol up to E10, using fuel lines and fuel filter (assuming OEM) rated for up to 100% ethanol... failed because of ethanol.

Naptha on the other hand (main ingredient in Seafoam) is a much stronger rubber solvent than ethanol, even in the class of rubbers that ethanol actually damages.



LGB said:


> It happened twice and I wasn't going thru it a third time. Switched to Non-Ethanol fuel and haven't had the problem since. In the attached article, ethanol does much more damage than just plastic/rubber dissolving.


Than it is literally a completely unscientific sales sheet. I mean - ethanol can only solubolize ~0.5% water, and an engine will run just fine on that. More than that an we're talking phase separation.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

sureshot006 said:


> I bet your filter wasn't compatible. Fuel treatment doesn't remove or convert ethanol anyway.


Very possible. Wish I could say. Only way I'd know is if I bought another one and dropped it in ethanol fuel and let it sit for 6 months. Guess I'd know then. One thing I do know is, using rec fuel, it doesn't matter. Never had the issue since.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

pescadero said:


> There is definitely a question about it.
> 
> An engine rated to run ethanol up to E10, using fuel lines and fuel filter (assuming OEM) rated for up to 100% ethanol... failed because of ethanol.
> 
> ...


I'm not concerned about the water. It's why there's a water separation unit on my engine. It's the damage the ethanol does to the parts. Those dissolve into small pieces and get in the fuel. Causes all kinds of issues when the engine is running. Bogs, misses, etc. Again, haven't had the issue since I quit using it. Problem solved. I'm happy for the guys not experiencing this with there motors. Don't fix what's not broke.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

LGB said:


> It's the damage the actual ethanol does to the parts.


...but that is the real question - was it actually ethanol?

Or was it one of the dozens of other additives that exist in pump gas (many of which aren't in rec gas, and many of which vary from fuel company to fuel company)... alcohol and ether oxygenates, antioxidants, detergents, etc.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

pescadero said:


> ...but that is the real question - was it actually ethanol?
> 
> Or was it one of the dozens of other additives that exist in pump gas (many of which aren't in rec gas, and many of which vary from fuel company to fuel company)... alcohol and ether oxygenates, antioxidants, detergents, etc.


Again, hard to say. I only know it happened when I used unleaded fuel (10%) ethanol and the marine mechanic stated the ethanol kills marine engines. Took me filling it with ethanol fuel for it to happen again before I knew he was on to something. He has seen it destroy engines when the fuel isn't treated properly. He said the only way to avoid having the issue is with Non-ethanol fuel. Didn't need to research it any further, I found all I needed to know.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

Prior to ethanol being used in gasoline, this problem didn't exist. Think that was in the early 2000-2007 range. It never happened to any of my marine motors prior to that time period. I could be off on the exact dates but I'm putting those dates with some things remembered when I owned different boats. Sounds about right tho.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

LGB said:


> Prior to ethanol being used in gasoline, this problem didn't exist. Think that was in the early 2000-2007 range. It never happened to any of my marine motors prior to that time period. I could be off on the exact dates but I'm putting those dates with some things remembered when I owned different boats. Sounds about right tho.


Thats interesting since components were designed to withstand ethanol beginning in the 1980's.


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## Papa Liver (May 20, 2016)

LGB said:


> Ethanol free fuel is the answer to never having fuel related issues with a marine motor. I paid 4.74 per gallon for it last week VS 4.59 for unleaded. If .15 is too much more to spend, I probably should sell my boat and buy a kayak.


Man that’s a score on rec fuel. It’s over $6 a gallon by me! My motor calls for premium so that’s what I put in it. Used to do Rec fuel but not at these prices. I also throw some sea foam in there every 2-3 fill ups.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

sureshot006 said:


> Thats interesting since components were designed to withstand ethanol beginning in the 1980's.


I think E 10 started in the late 80's. 

I just checked the manual for my Yamaha. Minimum requirement is 86 octane no more than 10% ethanol


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

Papa Liver said:


> Man that’s a score on rec fuel. It’s over $6 a gallon by me! My motor calls for premium so that’s what I put in it. Used to do Rec fuel but not at these prices. I also throw some sea foam in there every 2-3 fill ups.


Hold on to your rompers, unleaded fuel will be there by the end of summer.


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## Papa Liver (May 20, 2016)

LGB said:


> Hold on to your rompers, unleaded fuel will be there by the end of summer.


$8+ I bet for premium


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> Thats interesting since components were designed to withstand ethanol beginning in the 1980's.



...and Ethanol in pump gas started in the 1970's.

The federal government started giving ethanol blended gas (aka “gasohol") a 4 cents-per-gallon tax break in 1975.

1980-83: ethanol subsidy increased to 50 cents per gallon, insured loans for small ethanol producers, price guarantees, and purchase agreements for federal agency use of gasohol. 

1984: ethanol subsidy was increased from 50 to 60 cents per gallon

Ethanol had basically completely replaced MTBE as an oxygenate by 2003.


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## LGB (9 mo ago)

sureshot006 said:


> Thats interesting since components were designed to withstand ethanol beginning in the 1980's.


Apparently not. Isn't that kinda what there saying today about EVs ? Selling them before anything is ready infrastructure wise. Sound familiar ??? Always cart before the horse. All I know is some parts AREN'T holding up to ethanol. Not sure how parts in the 1980s hold up against it but parts made well into the 2000s are being destroyed from it.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

LGB said:


> Apparently not. Isn't that kinda what there saying today about EVs ? Selling them before anything is ready infrastructure wise. Sound familiar ??? Always cart before the horse. All I know is some parts AREN'T holding up to ethanol. Not sure how parts in the 1980s hold up against it but parts made well into the 2000s are being destroyed from it.


Tell the manufacturers that. They will warranty motors that run E10. Just sayin...

I think many of these issues come from switching from rec to e10, or letting the e10 sit for long periods until phase separation happens.


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## Grave-Digga (Feb 25, 2015)

I don't care what Pesky says. As a state certified small engine mechanic, I have told many people exactly what LGB'S mechanic told him. If you really want to run the ethanol, change all fuel components to automotive grade components. That is what has been designed for ethanol fuel. Not marine grade components. 

People on these threads are a slap in the face to certified mechanics that know what the issue is. 

I've had my own family members with the same problems that wouldn't listen to my advice, only to have a different mechanic tell them the same thing. They finally listen to them and problems gone. (As they tell me looking very sheepish)

Don't ask a professional, and then tell them they are wrong. These fuel issues can lean out and destroy your engine. I have seen it many times


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Grave-Digga said:


> I don't care what Pesky says. As a state certified small engine mechanic, I have told many people exactly what LGB'S mechanic told him. If you really want to run the ethanol, change all fuel components to automotive grade components. That is what has been designed for ethanol fuel. Not marine grade components.
> 
> People on these threads are a slap in the face to certified mechanics that know what the issue is.
> 
> ...


Have you told the manufacturers?

A bigger problem is switching from rec to some concentration of ethanol because it causes some of the accumulated crud to break free and toward the engine.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Or what engines you work on! Some make it sound like today’s motors self destruct with our regular fuel. Probably the same guys that wear a mask alone in a car. 

Small or old motors that see limited use, I “almost” get it.


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## Grave-Digga (Feb 25, 2015)

sureshot006 said:


> Have you told the manufacturers?
> 
> A bigger problem is switching from rec to some concentration of ethanol because it causes some of the accumulated crud to break free and toward the engine.


The manufacturers agree with me. 

You can have my license


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## Grave-Digga (Feb 25, 2015)

I am tired of people coming to me for help and telling me I'm wrong. The knowledge is earned through experience


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## Grave-Digga (Feb 25, 2015)

Shoeman said:


> Or what engines you work on! Some make it sound like today’s motors self destruct with our regular fuel. Probably the same guys that wear a mask alone in a car.
> 
> Small or old motors that see limited use, I “almost” get it.


I will just forget about the engines I have rebuilt due to degraded fuel lines. I must be wrong. Back to school I shall go


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Don’t be the one that takes his pail and shovel and go home! What engines?


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## Grave-Digga (Feb 25, 2015)

As stated, marine equipment with marine grade components. Change to automotive grade... boom. Problem gone


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## Grave-Digga (Feb 25, 2015)

The manufacturer wants you to spend at the marina. It's where their products are sold as well as ethanol free fuel for marine applications. 

Other small engines are different. I only worry about ethanol when storing, and fuel treatment can help there.

Changing marine grade fuel components to non fuel injection automotive components will fix the problem unless being stored for long periods of time.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

Grave-Digga said:


> The manufacturers agree with me.
> 
> You can have my license


Do they? If so it's strange they state in their manual that E10 is fine.

Mercury states "Fuel system components of Mercury Outboard and Sterndrive Engines *can and will* withstand up to 10% Ethanol content in gasoline"

In fact they also say ethanol is unfairly blamed for some of these issues.

This appears to be from Mercury. It has a pretty good summary and may actually explain some of what you've seen: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oQFnoECCAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1DFP8eaJAjBdK4e50VgOTv


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## Grave-Digga (Feb 25, 2015)

This is why it is pointless to try to talk about 25 years experience in real life issues. (Not an engineer manual).

Listen to what you want. My real life experiences have shown me first hand what is happening. I only try to help people understand a little bit. I'm done


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Picked up some Rec Fuel for my boat today, to go Walleye fishing in the morning. I expect my boat to run like a top with it.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

pescadero said:


> Which alcohol, and which rubber?
> 
> Ethanol is actually completely compatible with natural rubber (isoprene, neoprene, EPR, SBR, Butyl, etc.)
> 
> ...


Lol! The fuel lines in the tank of my Gravely zero turn failed after 5 years of using reg unleaded with ethanol. Cut the bad section off and switched to rec gas and haven't had an issue in the last 13 years. The dealer said Gravely had used fuel line that wasn't compatible with ethanol.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

pescadero said:


> There is definitely a question about it.
> 
> An engine rated to run ethanol up to E10, using fuel lines and fuel filter (assuming OEM) rated for up to 100% ethanol... failed because of ethanol.
> 
> ...


That's fine for a 4 stroke motor, but not for a 2 stroke motor. Water will score the piston skirt and cylinder wall.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

sureshot006 said:


> Thats interesting since components were designed to withstand ethanol beginning in the 1980's.


I had a pull ATV mower that I bought new in 2002 with a Briggs motor. After a few years I had trouble with it leaking fuel out the carb. Turned out the float needle was coated with a finish that wasn't compatible with ethanol, because the finish was flacking off. Rebuilt the carb and used rec fuel and never had a problem. If they designed that part to be compatible with ethanol, surely failed.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

LGB said:


> Apparently not. Isn't that kinda what there saying today about EVs ? Selling them before anything is ready infrastructure wise. Sound familiar ??? Always cart before the horse. All I know is some parts AREN'T holding up to ethanol. Not sure how parts in the 1980s hold up against it but parts made well into the 2000s are being destroyed from it.


Most older small engines used all brass carburetor parts, which can withstand ethanol. A lot of new carb parts are cheaply made.


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## MossyHorns (Apr 14, 2011)

sureshot006 said:


> I'm not sure how chemistry is luck. That's where I'm stuck on this issue. Why doesn't it affect everyone the same?


Because not all carburetors parts are made of the same materials. Just like not all fuel lines are the exact same. If you rebuilt as many carbs as I have you would understand. Quality went out the door years ago on a lot of small engines. Some fuel line may be compatable with ethanol for a period of time, but they didn't do a long term test. Manufacturers just want it to get past the warranty and then it's on you to fix.


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## sea-nile one (Sep 7, 2006)

ETW said:


> Okay, its not new but I read that it is being labeled as "Regular" unleaded thanks to some Federal changes in the rules. I am one of those guys that does not always run Rec Fuel. I trailer the boat 90% of the time and I fuel where it is convenient. Sometimes they have Rec Fuel, sometimes they don't and sometimes I'm too damn cheap to pay for it. I run a 30 year old Merc that really prefers Premium but fuel is getting ridiculous and looks to stay that way for awhile.
> 
> But this unlabeled E15 has me concerned. Am I just misunderstanding it? The Coast Guard even put out a statement to boaters about it. Do gas stations have to label it E15 or can they just sneak it in?
> 
> Thanks for the comments.


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## LoneWolfArcher (Mar 13, 2015)

pescadero said:


> That just says bad things about Gravely (or whoever did the engine for it).
> 
> Ethanol has been in gas since the 1970s in some places, been widespread since the mid 1990's nationwide, the problem with nitrile rubber hoses was known 100 years ago, and equally cheap substitutes have existed (and been used by auto manufacturers) since the 1980's.
> 
> Anyone using fuel system components that aren't ethanol resistant is just doing really bad engineering.


SMH 

It is a pay me now, pay me later scenario. Pay incrementally for ethanol free gas and extend the motor's life. Use ethanol gas and eventually pay a bigger one time bill. I'd take the expert's advice that isn't looking for a future payment from you (IE the expert in this thread!). Ethanol in a small engine is not a recipe for long-term engine life.


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## Scott Webster Wood (Feb 3, 2019)

ETW said:


> Okay, its not new but I read that it is being labeled as "Regular" unleaded thanks to some Federal changes in the rules. I am one of those guys that does not always run Rec Fuel.


If you aren't buying 'rec' fuel that is specifically ethanol free and you aren't using one of the methods to pull the ethanol out, for example with water, then don't leave that crap in your carbs! Drain the tanks and back-drain the carbs or you'll have a maintenance nightmare on your hands in just a few weeks.
If you run the motor regular, you might not have a problem. But if that **** sits, it turns to corrosive goop! Especially with modern cheap-ass carbs they throw on everything where it's just some crappy tin coated who-the-hell-knows what kind cast metal inside of the china-special carbeurators they put on small 4-cycles these days.
I had a small camping generator and made the mistake of putting ethanol gas in it and then left is sit for 2 months. I can show you the pictures. It took me the better part of a day scrubbing and poking that thing to get all that crapola out of there!


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## LoneWolfArcher (Mar 13, 2015)

WALLEYE MIKE said:


> I did an experiment 2 years ago, put regular pump gas in a clear plastic container, left the top cracked open. After 3 months still had no water in it. Gas did evaporate a little during that time. About 60 oz in container.


3 months. ROFL


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## sea-nile one (Sep 7, 2006)

sea-nile one said:


> I copiEd this for you. This should clear up your questions. This was put out by the Detroit sector of the US Coast Guard. Everyone should be using recreational gas in their AVT’s, boats, motorcycles, scooters, side by sides an any small engines more so now then ever before.
> *Coast Guard Warns Boaters One Type of Fuel Could Be ‘Catastrophic’*
> By Allen Zhong
> May 21, 2022 Updated: May 21, 2022
> ...


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

LoneWolfArcher said:


> SMH
> 
> It is a pay me now, pay me later scenario. Pay incrementally for ethanol free gas and extend the motor's life. Use ethanol gas and eventually pay a bigger one time bill. I'd take the expert's advice that isn't looking for a future payment from you (IE the expert in this thread!). Ethanol in a small engine is not a recipe for long-term engine life.


If you regularly use gas, and your equipment isn't designed by bad engineers - you'll have the same experience with either gas, just like you will in your car.

If you let it sit, you might have issues...but I never have.


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## fishinthed (Nov 7, 2007)

Whatever the case, E15 doesn't look like a good deal for anything. Appreciate the warnings, everyone. 

I strictly use ethanol-free gas for my motors, knowing places where ethanol-free gas is available that are convenient to all the launch sites I typically use, or not far out of the way going home late if I want to be ready for the next outing.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

fishinthed said:


> Whatever the case, E15 doesn't look like a good deal for anything. Appreciate the warnings, everyone.
> 
> I strictly use ethanol-free gas for my motors, knowing places where ethanol-free gas is available that are convenient to all the launch sites I typically use, or not far out of the way going home late if I want to be ready for the next outing.


I might use it if it were anywhere near convenient for me. Honestly though, if I did the math I'd probably have to destroy a motor every 5 years to make up the financial difference. The lack of availability really sucks


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## fishinthed (Nov 7, 2007)

sureshot006 said:


> Honestly though, if I did the math I'd probably have to destroy a motor every 5 years to make up the financial difference.


I also wonder how much difference it would really make during the busy season when one is getting out often, especially if you run the gas out of the carb at the end of every outing.

But if I have to use gas with ethanol for an old Marine engine, I always use an additive such as Sea Foam as a precaution against damage of rubber parts such as hoses that could really gunk up a carburetor.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

I would check with the manufacturer/service tech on running ANY ethanol in motors as old as the one you talked about.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

fishinthed said:


> I also wonder how much difference it would really make during the busy season when one is getting out often, especially if you run the gas out of the carb at the end of every outing.
> 
> But if I have to use gas with ethanol for an old Marine engine, I always use an additive such as Sea Foam as a precaution against damage of rubber parts such as hoses that could really gunk up a carburetor.


I'd not be switching back and forth. That is when issues happen since the ethanol will loosen up junk left by rec fuel.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think seafoam will prevent ethanol damage to old, incompatible materials.


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## fishinthed (Nov 7, 2007)

As best I understand, the additives keep the ethanol from separating and reduce the amount of water it can draw into the mix. I don't know how that would affect the impact on old rubber parts and such.

Any ethanol I would be putting in my 40+ year old outboards would be if I really needed gas and there was no other readily available option, so I would not expect it to get much of a chance to rot out the incompatible parts.. No way I'll have gas with ethanol in the tank in the off season.

I'd be interested in hearing what an outboard technician has to say. Those I've known have always said to run ethanol free gas in the motors when possible, but have not given dire warnings against gas with up to 10% ethanol.

Of course one could mix in water, and pour off, but that would be a time consuming and messy process.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

I’m sure you can google fuel requirement for your model year


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Just looked! Too many conflicting blogs


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

fishinthed said:


> As best I understand, the additives keep the ethanol from separating and reduce the amount of water it can draw into the mix. I don't know how that would affect the impact on old rubber parts and such.
> 
> Any ethanol I would be putting in my 40+ year old outboards would be if I really needed gas and there was no other readily available option, so I would not expect it to get much of a chance to rot out the incompatible parts.. No way when I have gas with ethanol in the tank in the off season.
> 
> ...


If you're not getting incredible amounts of water it won't separate anyway. Ethanol keeps the water distributed in the gas. To a saturation point anyway. That actually keeps a low and not damaging concentration of water. If you let rec gas sit and it gets condensation in it, that water can go straight to the bottom and right into your engine since it won't mix.


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## ETW (May 18, 2020)

I see this thread has taken on a life of its own and that's a good thing.

But the ethanol mixture issue has taken a back seat. I can barely justify the $300.00 it costs me to trailer and run the boat to LM or LH. And that's just fuel. For a day of fishing. Once or maybe twice a month at best.


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## CrankyThunder (Feb 11, 2012)

Hi Guys:

I have a number of small engines, some are used constantly throughout the summer, others a couple times a year, and an old 1956 evenrude outboard that gets used every couple of years because I love that old thing. When Ethanol fuel came out my in-laws gunked up their generator and I repaired it for them. 

Been using rec gas for 15-20 years. all my engines run like a top. 

Make no mistake, wore a couple out, rings, valves, bearings, etc but no casualties for fuel issues. 

When I loan my chain saw out I supply a gas can with fuel to make sure that the correct fuel is used. 

There is a website for non ethanol fuels that you can google, it is called Pure-Gas.com. It used to have a map but that is no longer available. 

Granted, I used to have a 21 foot checkmate with a chevy 350 that sucked the fuel down so much that I used regular gas and kept track of fill up dates and was generous with the stabil and would treat it the same way if I was running it now but it is sold. 

I think it is a wise choice to use non ethonol gas in small engines. I want my engines to work, dont like fixin them. 

Regards, 
Crankster


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## textox (Jan 30, 2020)

Ethanol in fuel is bad but not as bad as the Olefins and the real destroyer,Benzene.Some gas has over 100 different additives to supposedly address other problems that combustion engines may experience.Refining is a complex process and why do consumers pay more for something that isn't there?....


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## bobsbeads (Jan 19, 2014)

I have a 1982 25hp Johnson. I Only use Regular gas in it treated with MarineStable .sets outside.
In Winter . Fog Motor ,fill up steel gas tank and in the spring I start using it again .
Run chain saw , weed wacker, edger ,backpack blowerALL WITH SAME GAS . Never Have Had A Problem starting or using Any of them .


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