# Asian Carp money.



## trailhead_mercantile (Oct 12, 2010)

The Obama administration will spend $51.5 million this year to shield the Great Lakes from greedy Asian carp, including first-time water sampling to determine whether the destructive fish have established a foothold in the lakes, officials said Thursday.
Officials released an updated strategy that also includes stepped-up trapping and netting in rivers that could provide access to the lakes, as well as initial field tests of scents that could lure carp to where they could be captured. An acoustic water gun that could scare carp from crucial locations will be tested near a Chicago shipping lock some want closed because it could serve as a doorway to Lake Michigan.


Read more: http://www.pantagraph.com/news/nati...eb5-5b97-8fc8-2841f850a033.html#ixzz1nIhccIdS


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## limpinglogan (Sep 23, 2009)

I guess that is a good thing...I still have a feeling that in ten years when I am fishing my favorite spots on the grand I am going to get hit in the head by one of those things jumping out of the water.


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

Closing the locks is the only solution, it may alrady be to late. One more good reason to vote Obama out.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Closing the locks is only part of the solution...

One thing that all of this research will in the end hopefully help is actually finding ways to eradicate or seriously control these fishes populations...

Personally, I do not believe you will see the locks closed, ever, especially considering the locks are not their only entrance into the Great Lakes...

http://glmris.anl.gov/documents/docs/OtherPathwaysMap.pdf


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

> Closing the locks is only part of the solution...


I agree with you there, need to close the locks and completely separate the Mississippi watershed from the Great Lakes. 



> Personally, I do not believe you will see the locks closed, ever,


Your probably right there too but I don't think the activities planned for this 51 million dollar effort will stop them. Every month that goes by is more time for the carp to get in if they aren't already in. Definately won't be good for our beloved St Joe River if they get here along with a lot of other places. Really irks me all we are going to do is study it some more.


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## REG (Oct 25, 2002)

All one has to do is look at a map of the canal waterway to realize that closing the locks will not keep them out.
Breaking the link of the canal to Lake Michigan will, but I don't understand the why all the tunneled attention is directed on that canal when historically, invasive species through the Wieland Canal has by far done alot more damage.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

REG said:


> All one has to do is look at a map of the canal waterway to realize that closing the locks will not keep them out.
> Breaking the link of the canal to Lake Michigan will, but I don't understand the why all the tunneled attention is directed on that canal when historically, invasive species through the Wieland Canal has by far done alot more damage.


Not only that, but there is uncertainty as to what the amount of pollution that flows out of Lake Michigan every year via these canals will do if it suddenly was not allowed to escape.

Lets face it, the industrial areas of Southern Lake Michigan dump a LOT of crap into the lake every year and a good percentage of it ends up heading out of the lake via these canals.

This was one point brought up at the meetings in Chicago...

I honestly worry more about the Eagle Marsh than I do the locks...

As Joker was told in Full Metal Jacket, it's a giant **** sandwich and we all are gonna have to take a big bite...


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## Multispeciestamer (Jan 27, 2010)

If they do get in I say we stock the **** out of the big lake and rivers with Great Lakes strain musky. Not that the musky can eat the carp once they get giant but they can eat a bunch of the young smaller carp. New Native sport fishery anyone?


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Multispeciestamer said:


> If they do get in I say we stock the **** out of the big lake and rivers with Great Lakes strain musky. Not that the musky can eat the carp once they get giant but they can eat a bunch of the young smaller carp. New Native sport fishery anyone?


Good idea, however the lakes are far below the optimum temp. range for them, thus reducing the amount they could/would eat. Also didn't I see a map of the watershed that showed they may be on there way to Lake Erie from the Chicago river already?


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## DonP (Nov 15, 2000)

Guess they will have to be kept out some other way... 

Supreme Court Won't Order Locks Closed to Keep Carp Out of Great Lakes


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

METTLEFISH said:


> Good idea, however the lakes are far below the optimum temp. range for them, thus reducing the amount they could/would eat. Also didn't I see a map of the watershed that showed they may be on there way to Lake Erie from the Chicago river already?


No, you most certainly did not see a link stating they were on their way to Erie via the Chicago River. That statement does not even make sense...

Check out the link I posted a few posts above, it shows all the various ways the Carp COULD enter the Great Lakes...

Also, check out the GLMRIS website, lot of good information there...

By the way, they were already found years ago in Lake Erie...


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## twowack (Dec 21, 2010)

What would they eat in the great lakes, just asking.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

twowack said:


> What would they eat in the great lakes, just asking.


Well, the easy answer, the same stuff the baitfish and juveniles of larger species currently residing in the Great Lakes eat...


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## mark (Feb 4, 2000)

EdB said:


> I agree with you there, need to close the locks and completely separate the Mississippi watershed from the Great Lakes.
> 
> 
> 
> Your probably right there too but I don't think the activities planned for this 51 million dollar effort will stop them. Every month that goes by is more time for the carp to get in if they aren't already in. Definately won't be good for our beloved St Joe River if they get here along with a lot of other places. Really irks me all we are going to do is study it some more.


it erks me more that 180 some invasive species have entered the great lakes via another canal that no one talks about or apparently cares about either.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Boozer said:


> No, you most certainly did not see a link stating they were on their way to Erie via the Chicago River. That statement does not even make sense...
> 
> Check out the link I posted a few posts above, it shows all the various ways the Carp COULD enter the Great Lakes...
> 
> ...


I believe that it said -verbatem, they can gain access to the St. Joe through the Chicago, and link through the Ohio River, .... if they were found in Erie... isn't the battle over?.... no amount of effort can keep them out, Birds, Tornado's, if they would of rotenoned the entire system when they escaped there would of been a chance. A freind of mine lives near the electric barrier, and has seen it down for days at a time prior to the new back-ups.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

The Wabash River is what connects to Eagle Marsh...

Eagle Marsh connects to the Joe, Maumee, etc...

It's the hardest route to stop them in "basically impossible" and threatens both Lake Erie and Lake Michigan...

It's why these tactics to actually attract them and be able to kill them are such a good option to explore as they would help the most IF they did get in. They really are trying to find a poison that targets the juvenile Carp exclusively, sort of like they have for Lampreys...

They were found in Erie in 5 different instances between 1995 and 2003...


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

They have built a barrier at Eagle Marsh, not saying this solves everything and a more permanent solution is needed but at least action to separate the watersheds is taking place there:

http://www.wane.com/dpp/news/dnr-to-erect-carp-barrier-in-allen-county

DNR to put up carp barrier in Allen Co.

Mesh fence will be erected this summer

Updated: Wednesday, 14 Jul 2010, 4:00 PM EDT
Published : Wednesday, 14 Jul 2010, 2:04 PM EDT



FORT WAYNE, Ind. (AP/WANE) -- - State wildlife officials plan to install a mesh fence across an Allen County, Indiana marsh aimed at preventing Asian carp from being able to reach waterways that lead to the Great Lakes. 

The Indiana Department of Natural Resources announced Wednesday it planned to put up the fence this summer in the restored wetland called Eagle Marsh southwest of Fort Wayne. 

Environmentalists have raised concerns that flooding in that area could allow the invasive fish to jump from the Wabash River system into the Maumee River, which drains into Lake Erie. 

Officials say Asian carp have been present in the Wabash River for close to 15 years and they've been found within about 20 miles of Eagle Marsh. 

The following press release was issued by the Indiana Department of Natural Resources:

The Indiana Department of Natural Resources will take a lead role in implementing a short-term step to address the advance of Asian carp up the Wabash River system and their potential movement into the Maumee River, a tributary to Lake Erie.



The focal point is Eagle Marsh, a 705-acre restored wetland near Fort Wayne that DNR staff identified as a possible pathway for Asian carp passage under certain flood conditions. The marsh is just north of Fox Island County Park near the intersection of Interstate 69 and U.S. 24.



A permanent solution to prevent Asian carp from being able to pass through this area during flooding conditions will take more time to develop, design and construct.



Therefore, as an immediate preventive measure, the DNR will install mesh fencing across a section of the marsh, creating a barrier against passage of Asian carp between the Wabash and Maumee drainage basins.



The DNR convened a recent meeting in Fort Wayne to address the potential carp movement and explore solutions, and the consensus was the mesh barrier is the best short-term option to pursue. The Environmental Protection Agency, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, U.S. Geological Survey, U.S. Department of Agriculture Natural Resources Conservation Service, the Allen County Soil and Water Conservation District, and the Little River Wetlands Project that manages Eagle Marsh, were represented at the meeting.



The fencing will be substantial enough to withstand floodwaters but will be designed so it does not increase flood elevations and cause property damage. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers will provide design guidance on the fencing. The goal is to have the fencing installed this summer. Additional monitoring will be conducted and more aggressive action taken if the threat warrants.



Although Chicago waterways remain the likeliest entry point for Asian carp into the Great Lakes, the Corps of Engineers is tasked with finding other potential pathways throughout the Great Lakes basin. Corps officials have identified several sites they are investigating to determine the risk of Asian carp advancement, including the Eagle Marsh area.



Although the Wabash and Maumee basins drain in opposite directions and have no direct connection under normal conditions, their waters do comingle under certain flood conditions.



Eagle Marsh straddles a natural geographic divide created by glacial movement during the ice age. The broad wetland marsh extends across the divide into two key drainage ditches  McCulloch Ditch and Junk Ditch. McCulloch drains west into the Little River and eventually the Wabash River near Huntington, while Junk Ditch drains northeast into the St. Marys River and then the Maumee River.



If Asian carp cross the divide at Eagle Marsh and reach the Maumee, they would be in the Lake Erie drainage basin and additional more costly and invasive steps would be required to protect the Great Lakes from the threat.



The DNR and the Corps of Engineers are working with U.S. Geological Survey to analyze historic flood data and determine the depth and duration of flooding in the Eagle Marsh area.



Asian carp, a generic term for four species of non-native carp, were first detected in Indiana in 1996 at Hovey Lake Fish & Wildlife Area in the southwest corner of the state. Subsequent DNR surveys located bighead carp and silver carp in low abundance in the Wabash River or its tributaries, but the location of those findings show the fish moving upstream. A 2008 survey collected a total of 25 silver carp and two bighead carp over a 105-mile stretch of the Wabash River.



Adult bighead carp have been found below the dam at Roush Lake near Huntington, and silver carp have advanced to the Mississinewa River near Peru. In late May, a DNR biologist found evidence of silver carp spawning near Lafayette, 105 river miles downstream from the mouth of the Little River.


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Yeah, knew about the fence already...

It's a fence with 1" - 3" holes....

Tell me how that's gonna stop juveniles...


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## EdB (Feb 28, 2002)

Not saying it is the complete solution but better than doing nothing but studies. More on Eagle Marsh
http://asiancarp.org/news/carp-fence-in-indiana-complete/

Finished carp fence dubbed &#8216;substantial&#8217;

What is nearly 1,200 feet long, 8 feet high, has dozens of 50-foot rolls of chain-link fence fastened to 123 four-inch posts by more than 1,000 wire ties, and bolstered by almost 120 concrete barriers weighing 2 ½ tons each?

An Asian carp fence.The numbers document the dimensions of a barrier constructed at Eagle Marsh near Fort Wayne designed to block potential advancement of Asian carp toward the Great Lakes.

&#8220;Substantial,&#8221; is the word Indiana Department of Natural Resources director Robert E. Carter used to describe the fence.

Construction of the 1,177-foot main fence and a supplemental 494-foot debris catch fence began in early September and was completed on Tuesday.

The final cost of the fence project is still being determined, but indications are it will be less than the $200,000 bid estimate. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service are funding the cost of the project through the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative.

&#8220;I tip my hat to DNR staff that tackled this project and got it done in a timely and efficient manner,&#8221; Carter said. &#8220;This may not guarantee Asian carp never get into the Great Lakes someday, somehow, but with a temporary barrier this substantial, it certainly seems unlikely this will be the route.&#8221;

The DNR took a lead role in the fence project after identifying Eagle Marsh as a potential pathway for Asian carp to move from the Wabash River system into the Maumee River, a tributary to Lake Erie. Although the Wabash and Maumee basins drain in opposite directions and have no direct connection under normal conditions, their waters do comingle under certain flood conditions in Eagle Marsh, a 705-acre restored wetland near Fort Wayne.

The DNR pursued the mesh fence barrier as a short-term option while the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and other federal agencies develop a permanent solution.

&#8220;The completion of this fence marks another milestone met in the framework we laid out to prevent invasive Asian carp from establishing themselves in the Great Lakes. The barrier at Eagle Marsh is an example of what can be done through strong state and Federal coordination,&#8221; said John Goss, former Indiana DNR director who is the Asian Carp Director at the White House Council on Environmental Quality.

Although placing such a large fence in the midst of a wetland restoration project creates aesthetic concerns, it was the right thing to do according to Betsy Yankowiak, executive director of the Little River Wetlands Project that manages Eagle Marsh.

&#8220;We spend so much on fighting invasive plant species and so much on volunteer time in that effort,&#8221; Yankowiak said. &#8220;We couldn&#8217;t handle it if Asian carp got through Eagle Marsh. We want to be proactive and be part of the solution, not part of the problem.&#8221;

While blocking passage of adult Asian carp is a primary goal of the fence, it also is designed to allow movement of water so as not to increase flood elevations and cause property damage.

As an added component of floodwater monitoring, the U.S. Geological Survey installed gages on the fence that will measure water levels in effort to ensure the fence does not block water flow during significant flooding events.

DNR staff supervised the fence&#8217;s construction by two Fort Wayne companies &#8211; Brooks Construction and R&C Fence.

Asian carp refers to several species of fish originating from Asia. Three species of the non-native fish &#8211; bighead, silver and black carp &#8211; were imported to the southern United States to keep aquaculture ponds clean and to provide fresh fish for markets. Some of the fish escaped into the Mississippi River system in the 1980s and 1999s after flooding and have expanded their range northward ever since.

Bighead and silver carp were first detected in Indiana in the late 1990s at Hovey Lake Fish & Wildlife Area in the southwest corner of the state. Since then, they have moved up the Wabash, East Fork and West Fork of the White River, the Patoka River, and the Ohio River and some of its tributaries in southern Indiana.

(NOTE: Photos of the fence project can be found at www.dnr.in.gov/images/eaglemarsh.jpg, www.dnr.in.gov/images/eaglemarsh10.jpg and www.dnr.in.gov/images/eaglemarsh16.jpg)


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## mark (Feb 4, 2000)

METTLEFISH said:


> A freind of mine lives near the electric barrier, and has seen it down for days at a time prior to the new back-ups.


Just an FYI,

The original electric barrier was intended to keep gobies out of the mississippi river system. If those didnt come in through the chicago canal how did gobies get into the upper great lakes? What I want to know is why now its a problem with just these fish. Sea lampreys, eh who cares. zebra mussels, same thing. Now a new invasive the bloody red mysid has found its way into lake huron (2008) from the other canal that nobody talks about yet that R.E.M. song(the end of the world as we know it) is playing in the background amidst asain carp talk. I dont care that the other canal is in another country. If that canadian province can sue the state of IL to close the chicago canals, then we should be able to sue to close the welland canal. Its done way too much damage to the upper lakes in its existance. Total ecological parity across the board is the only way to insure no more invasive species get into the great lakes. 

You want to lobby something, total ecological separation for the upper great lakes.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Not so long ago, there was a member on here loudly proclaiming there are indeed Native Char in the Upper Dow...... if indeed there are ancient waterfalls there, the bedrock long iether side would indicate that as well as some photos and ingineering documents for the project ...and as already stated the existing dam would make great "hold" for placing boulders to re-create the falls... perhaps a re-rout of the river could be done and have a more natural falls?....


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

METTLEFISH said:


> Not so long ago, there was a member on here loudly proclaiming there are indeed Native Char in the Upper Dow...... if indeed there are ancient waterfalls there, the bedrock long iether side would indicate that as well as some photos and ingineering documents for the project ...and as already stated the existing dam would make great "hold" for placing boulders to re-create the falls... perhaps a re-rout of the river could be done and have a more natural falls?....


That is one thing I do not know, whether they were Native or not. I am sure Jay knows...

I can say that has been really the only argument sportsman have made about the removal of the dam, they worry migratory species would hinder resident Trout populations upstream. The experts all agree that there is no risk to the Trout populations upstream and only benefits because the watershed would be healthier, look at the PM for example, it gets way more Salmon and steelhead than the D ever will and it has a thriving Trout population...

Sonar would be used to find out exactly what exists down there, it is believed under all that silt that there would be a large run filled with large boulders creating a rapids...

However, nothing will happen until Niles decides to go forth with removal...


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Boozer said:


> However, nothing will happen until Niles decides to go forth with removal...


How is it their decision when all navigable waters are property of the state?....

If those are indeed Native, they for sure would not benefit from having to compete with the salmon....


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

METTLEFISH said:


> How is it their decision when all navigable waters are property of the state?....
> 
> If those are indeed Native, they for sure would not benefit from having to compete with the salmon....


They own the Dam...

I encourage you to take your concerns about the well-being of the Char located in the very very upper reaches of this system with Jay Wesley, I am sure he can put any concerns you have to rest...

I know you stated you have never been to nor fished this watershed, so perhaps you could learn something about some new water by contacting him...

Jay is also in charge of the MEANDRS project, which is a outstanding project, check it out!


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Boozer said:


> They own the Dam...
> 
> I encourage you to take your concerns about the well-being of the Char located in the very very upper reaches of this system with Jay Wesley, I am sure he can put any concerns you have to rest...
> 
> ...


I thought I learned something new when someone on here made it clear those were indeed Native Char. If indeed they own it and are not maintaining it properly the State can take them to court and force them to comply or have their ownership rescended


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## Jay Wesley (Mar 2, 2009)

Boozer said:


> They own the Dam...
> 
> I encourage you to take your concerns about the well-being of the Char located in the very very upper reaches of this system with Jay Wesley, I am sure he can put any concerns you have to rest...
> 
> ...


Just to answer a few questions about the Dowagiac. Yes. There are brook trout in the headwaters. However, brook trout are only native to U.P. Streams and a few in northern part of the lower peninsula. The brook trout in the "D" were stocked in the late 1800's and have naturalized. Same with the brown trout. Actually, chinook and steelhead were also stocked back then but the chinook did not take. 

There is lots of evidence that chinook, steelhead, brown trout and brook trout can co-exist. Is there competition and predation? Yes. The streams that hold brook trout are very small, so there won't be much in terms of large salmonids over-populating them in the fall. Most of the competition with brown trout and brook trout is during age 0 and age 1. Beyond that trout do very well in these systems and actually eat young salmon and steelhead. 

If anyone fishes the Little Manistee or PM, you know how these species co-exist.


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## mark (Feb 4, 2000)

METTLEFISH said:


> I thought I learned something new when someone on here made it clear those were indeed Native Char. If indeed they own it and are not maintaining it properly the State can take them to court and force them to comply or have their ownership rescended


what's your angle? i mean you've drawn enough attention to the joe already. now your pointing out the maybe 10-20 native char still in the system of a river that is not supposed to be mentioned on here? the "char" i might add are sub legal at best. you are bringing this up in a thread that has NOTHING to do with native char. this thread is about asian carp, not the other most mentionable unmentionable.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Hmmm timing is everything sometimes!.... be there soon to do another article on the Joe...See ya's then...


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## Boozer (Sep 5, 2010)

Jay Wesley said:


> Just to answer a few questions about the Dowagiac. Yes. There are brook trout in the headwaters. However, brook trout are only native to U.P. Streams and a few in northern part of the lower peninsula. The brook trout in the "D" were stocked in the late 1800's and have naturalized. Same with the brown trout. Actually, chinook and steelhead were also stocked back then but the chinook did not take.
> 
> There is lots of evidence that chinook, steelhead, brown trout and brook trout can co-exist. Is there competition and predation? Yes. The streams that hold brook trout are very small, so there won't be much in terms of large salmonids over-populating them in the fall. Most of the competition with brown trout and brook trout is during age 0 and age 1. Beyond that trout do very well in these systems and actually eat young salmon and steelhead.
> 
> If anyone fishes the Little Manistee or PM, you know how these species co-exist.


Thanks for the clarification Jay, very much appreciated!


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## mark (Feb 4, 2000)

METTLEFISH said:


> Hmmm timing is everything sometimes!.... be there soon to do another article on the Joe...See ya's then...


again what does a steelhead article have to do with asian carp?

P.S. Jay Wesley, thanks for the great info as always!


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

mark said:


> again what does a steelhead article have to do with asian carp?
> 
> P.S. Jay Wesley, thanks for the great info as always!


We'll hit on those Asian Carps too!.... I'll mention your concerns...


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## mark (Feb 4, 2000)

METTLEFISH said:


> We'll hit on those Asian Carps too!.... I'll mention your concerns...


well i suggest you listen more and talk less before touching on that!


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

mark said:


> well i suggest you listen more and talk less before touching on that!


Great advise!... and where have you been the last 10 or so years?...


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## mark (Feb 4, 2000)

METTLEFISH said:


> Great advise!... and where have you been the last 10 or so years?...


fishing!


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