# LM weir



## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

All the hens I'm seeing landed at Tippy are still tight. 

Walleyes showed up just earlier this past week. 

Lots of happy anglers taking home daily limits of steelhead for the last 10days now at Tippy. 



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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Why not just release all hens? If you can not catch a steelhead on salmon spawn, plugs, or beads you really need to up your game.


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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)

I may have inadvertently interjected a philosophical aspect into this thread. If we are to continue the discussion with questions like riverman has asked:



riverman said:


> Why not just release all hens?


Let's be respectful with our replies.

I'm not against keeping a limit of fish for table fare. But to answer his question in part about releasing hens, let's be honest. There are some anglers who specifically target hens for the roe. Not, to eat as the Japanese serve *ikura*, but as_* bait*_ - t_o catch more fish. 
_
My question is for those who choose to keep a limit of Steelhead; Should there be any consideration in harvesting a legal limit of fish? Do fish that were *not* raised in a hatchery have any _intrinsic value_ to the resource for anglers?

Should 'wild' fish - those that were naturally reproduced be given greater consideration before harvesting? Or is this just splitting hairs of an (_admittedly_) artificial fishery?


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

I've experienced plenty of days when freshly scraped Steelhead skein eggs, tied into spawnbags, put a LOT more fish on the end of my line, than fresh-frozen loose Salmon eggs. In rivers that have decent natural reproduction of Steelhead, I agree, and release hens. But in rivers that mostly rely on plants for the returns, hens are fair game to keep.


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

riverman said:


> Why not just release all hens? If you can not catch a steelhead on salmon spawn, plugs, or beads you really need to up your game.


Most I see are released. Landed, hook removed, and released. 

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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)

This thread is about the _Little_ Manistee River. Which, if I'm not mistaken is ground zero for the MI DNR's stocking program for Steelhead in Michigan Rivers. This is why I have asked the ethics question regarding harvesting non-hatchery raised Steelhead. Do they have an intrinsic value to the resource for anglers?

A better question I have for @M. Tonello would be if in 2023, would there be a preference by State workers at the LM weir that were selecting fish to use the eggs and milt for the stocking program, would they prefer using the Steelhead _with_ or without an adipose fin? And, is is even worth considering for the future of the fishery?

If I may ask a further question Mark, what are the present criteria or considerations the DNR uses for selecting fish for the hatchery's purposes? Is it based on size or what is available at the time of harvest etc.?


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## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

PunyTrout said:


> OK. Thanks Mark. I just thought I would ask the question for those who were wondering from a conservation standpoint. There may be anglers who, in a few years time may choose to release a wild Steelhead to let them spawn and spread their genes. And limit their harvest to fin-clipped fish only.


Just curious, but what would limiting your harvest to clipped fish do? If they’re reproducing naturally, their smolts will be unclipped anyway. If your concerned about “wild” steelhead genes think about it like this. The clipped fish on your stringer could be the offspring of two “wild” fish that just happen to get caught at the weir, while the unclipped fish you let go could be the offspring of two hatchery fish that naturally spawned. What fish would have more “wild” genes? I think it would be virtually impossible and pointless to select fish for they’re genes basing it off a fin clipping.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

PunyTrout said:


> This thread is about the _Little_ Mannistee River. Which, if I'm not mistaken is ground zero for the MI DNR's stocking program for Steelhead in Michigan Rivers. This is why I have asked the ethics question regarding harvesting non-hatchery raised Steelhead. Do they have an intrinsic value to the resource for anglers?
> 
> A better question I have for @M. Tonello would be if in 2023, would there be a preference by State workers at the LM weir that were selecting fish to use the eggs and milt for the stocking program, would they prefer using the Steelhead _with_ or without an adipose fin? And, is is even worth considering for the future of the fishery?
> 
> If I may ask a further question Mark, what are the present criteria or considerations the DNR uses for selecting fish for the hatchery's purposes? Is it based on size or what is available at the time of harvest etc.?


Puny,
Interesting questions. Regarding harvesting wild vs. hatchery steelhead, here's one thing to consider. As far as I'm aware, in our wild Michigan steelhead streams (of which I manage a good portion) we have never seen a situation where steelhead were overharvested to the point where there was a reduction in parr the following summer. It doesn't take that many hens to seed the rivers with enough fry to fill the available habitat. This is with the existing 3 fish per day limit. So scientifically, I would say no. Also- we had a major discussion with Michigan anglers regarding steelhead a few years back, with public meetings, comment periods, etc. The majority of the comments were that anglers wanted the option of harvesting three steelhead, even three wild steelhead, unless there was a compelling scientific reason not to do so. There isn't, so that's why the limit stayed at three.

At the weir, yes we prefer to use wild steelhead for the egg take. The Little Manistee is not stocked, although there are a fair number of hatchery strays that seem to find that river. With the smaller runs in recent years, we are sometimes forced to use whatever we have on hand, but yes we prefer wild fish if we have them.

Other than wild/hatchery the criteria is that we randomly select from all available individuals, including skippers. In other words, don't just pick the biggest, the prettiest, etc. Randomly selecting spawners will help to maintain a genetically sound steelhead population that will be better able to respond to any environmental challenges that come up. We also try to use fish from throughout the run, not just fish from one particular push.

Hope that helps.


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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)

@MIfishslayer91 I think I understand the point you're making.

My question is are there any advantages to having 'naturally spawned' fish that were never raised in a hatchery spreading their genes?

If you're keeping clipped fish, you can be assured that the fish you're keeping was put there by the State for you to catch. You payed for a fishing license. You keep the fish that are planted by the State for you to catch.

If you release a few fish that are _unclipped _then you are helping the resource with genetic diversity as far as I see it. At minimum, you are helping the resource with the natural imprinting of Steelhead in their natal stage that a hatchery cannot provide.


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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)

M. Tonello said:


> ...Hope that helps.


Thanks Mark. We all appreciate your input here. Keep up the great work.


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

M. Tonello said:


> It doesn't take that many hens to seed the rivers with enough fry to fill the available habitat.


So how is carrying capacity determined on the rivers? Paper hypotheses or actual river shocking? If it's shocking then how is the determination made for the PM when the equipment doesn't exist (to my knowledge) to shock the river from the fly water down? IMO that river isn't even close to capacity (smolts) and hasn't been for a number of years.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

I think carrying capacity is literally determined by Nature. Survival of the fittest. Nobody has to count every Steelhead that hatches, and count every single Parr, and Smolt in a river to know about them. Samples can help estimate numbers, but the actual numbers are determined by nature.


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

Fishndude said:


> I think carrying capacity is literally determined by Nature. Survival of the fittest. Nobody has to count every Steelhead that hatches, and count every single Parr, and Smolt in a river to know about them. Samples can help estimate numbers, but the actual numbers are determined by nature.


Are you saying the DNR just picks a random number of brown trout to plant in our cold rivers/steelhead streams without any idea of carry capacity? That seems to me a waste of money raising them if it boils down to guessing/survival of the fittest.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Are we talking about plants of Steelhead, or Brown Trout?


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## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

I am talking about the cold rivers that support both. Steelhead smolts until they leave for the lake and native browns. Surely the DNR has a idea of carry capacity when they make decisions on how many to plant of either species. Just picking a number with your survival of the fittest would be a total waste of time and money.


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## Quig7557 (Dec 31, 2008)

Mark, I’ve noticed dwindling steelhead runs on the LM for the last twenty years. Are runs down on all rivers? (I have a opinion) Do we know the cause?

When the weir is in place, and fish are stopped, does the later free passing of fish limit the survival of the late spawning attempt? 

Thank you for your time on these forums, I know I appreciate your work.


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## GVDocHoliday (Sep 5, 2003)

Quig7557 said:


> Mark, I’ve noticed dwindling steelhead runs on the LM for the last twenty years. Are runs down on all rivers? (I have a opinion) Do we know the cause?
> 
> When the weir is in place, and fish are stopped, does the later free passing of fish limit the survival of the late spawning attempt?
> 
> Thank you for your time on these forums, I know I appreciate your work.


I know on the BM this year, the run seems to be vastly larger than the past three years. I'm seeing guys who usually don't catch fish, limit out in a matter of a few hours every day for the last 2weeks, and the fresh fish are just starting to show up. These fish are well fed, and are fighting very hard. More fish are breaking off than are being landed, and don't even get me started on the walleye.


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## mondrella (Dec 27, 2001)

riverman said:


> So how is carrying capacity determined on the rivers? Paper hypotheses or actual river shocking? If it's shocking then how is the determination made for the PM when the equipment doesn't exist (to my knowledge) to shock the river from the fly water down? IMO that river isn't even close to capacity (smolts) and hasn't been for a number of years.


The main river may not have the smolts but the tribs that once some of the best trout fishing in the state are overrun with smolts. My personal opinion is they destroyed the Brook trout fishing far upstream. The illegal harvest came to a end on those lake run fish and in a few short years the brookies disappeared. The numbers of people fishing on the PM compared to 20 years ago on the main river. I think has a bigger effect. I use to fish there in March 20 years ago and see maybe 3 to 5 boats float by. Took my son 2 times this year because he is into the lakeruns. We had 17 boats float past us in a single day. Fish are there just being pushed around by a boat floating over every half hour just has them spooked.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Quig7557 said:


> Mark, I’ve noticed dwindling steelhead runs on the LM for the last twenty years. Are runs down on all rivers? (I have a opinion) Do we know the cause?
> 
> When the weir is in place, and fish are stopped, does the later free passing of fish limit the survival of the late spawning attempt?
> 
> Thank you for your time on these forums, I know I appreciate your work.


Quig,
Steelhead runs are hard to enumerate, unless you have a fish ladder where you can count every single fish that runs. Even on the Little M we can't count year-round, so our weir counts are not exact. Regardless, there's no doubt that runs on the Little M are smaller, and I believe there are fewer returning adults on other rivers as well. I don't believe this has anything to do with the health of the rivers themselves. When we shock wild steelhead streams like the Little M, PM, Bear Creek, etc., we still find as many wild steelhead parr as we ever have. For stocked rivers, stocking numbers have not changed for the most part in 30 years. I believe the changes in the steelhead fishery have everything to do with the changes on Lake Michigan. The big lake is now a much more sterile system thanks to invasive mussels. There simply isn't as much prey out there as there was 30 or even 20 years ago. That hurts in several ways- first, predators like steelhead don't have as much to eat. Second- other predators now target smolts when they used to target alewives or smelt. It seems that steelhead survival at the smolt stage is not what it used to be. The ones that survive and become adults look great and grow well, but there are simply fewer of them than there used to be.


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

mondrella said:


> The main river may not have the smolts but the tribs that once some of the best trout fishing in the state are overrun with smolts. My personal opinion is they destroyed the Brook trout fishing far upstream. The illegal harvest came to a end on those lake run fish and in a few short years the brookies disappeared. The numbers of people fishing on the PM compared to 20 years ago on the main river. I think has a bigger effect. I use to fish there in March 20 years ago and see maybe 3 to 5 boats float by. Took my son 2 times this year because he is into the lakeruns. We had 17 boats float past us in a single day. Fish are there just being pushed around by a boat floating over every half hour just has them spooked.


This is exactly why so many people I know want them to stay out of the Boardman.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

M. Tonello said:


> Quig,
> Steelhead runs are hard to enumerate, unless you have a fish ladder where you can count every single fish that runs. Even on the Little M we can't count year-round, so our weir counts are not exact. Regardless, there's no doubt that runs on the Little M are smaller, and I believe there are fewer returning adults on other rivers as well. I don't believe this has anything to do with the health of the rivers themselves. When we shock wild steelhead streams like the Little M, PM, Bear Creek, etc., we still find as many wild steelhead parr as we ever have. For stocked rivers, stocking numbers have not changed for the most part in 30 years. I believe the changes in the steelhead fishery have everything to do with the changes on Lake Michigan. The big lake is now a much more sterile system thanks to invasive mussels. There simply isn't as much prey out there as there was 30 or even 20 years ago. That hurts in several ways- first, predators like steelhead don't have as much to eat. Second- other predators now target smolts when they used to target alewives or smelt. It seems that steelhead survival at the smolt stage is not what it used to be. The ones that survive and become adults look great and grow well, but there are simply fewer of them than there used to be.


Thanks for the insight, Mark. Are there any plans, or ideas for raising Steelhead in hatcheries to a larger size before planting? I have to think that just feeding them more would result in larger fish being planted. And the larger fish would evade predators more easily, and also be able to forage more effectively. I can remember most Steelhead plants being around 10" about 25 years ago, and some outsized Planters were upwards of 16", with a rare few going close to 20". The returning fish were larger on average back then, too. I absolutely realize that the change wrought by the Mussels have drastically changed the ecosystems of our lake. You, and I actually discussed this at some length, before Lake Huron crashed.


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## hypox (Jan 23, 2000)

I release all steelhead other than skams and 1 spring female. If I could pick between a stocker female and a wild one, I would pick a stocker 100% of the time.


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## Kisutch (May 26, 2011)

Let us not forget the 40 plus million lake trout that have disrupted the new ecosystem. Those mouths have devastated all the plants for sometime now. 

Kisutch


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Fishndude said:


> Thanks for the insight, Mark. Are there any plans, or ideas for raising Steelhead in hatcheries to a larger size before planting? I have to think that just feeding them more would result in larger fish being planted. And the larger fish would evade predators more easily, and also be able to forage more effectively. I can remember most Steelhead plants being around 10" about 25 years ago, and some outsized Planters were upwards of 16", with a rare few going close to 20". The returning fish were larger on average back then, too. I absolutely realize that the change wrought by the Mussels have drastically changed the ecosystems of our lake. You, and I actually discussed this at some length, before Lake Huron crashed.


Fishndude- No plans for that. If we increased size, there would be two main problems. First would be that we'd have to cut back on numbers. Our hatcheries are already at capacity, so we'd have to drop the numbers to have enough raceway space if we increased size. Second would be the smolting window. They smolt by June at the latest, so you have to get them stocked before that. If they miss the smolt window and stay in the river an extra year, that would not be good in most rivers. Most would die from high temps, predators, etc. before ever reaching the big lake.


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## Matt3ddsteel (Jan 10, 2002)

Mark, any word on when the egg take will begin?


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Matt3ddsteel said:


> Mark, any word on when the egg take will begin?


Tuesday the 16th.


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

Bummer! In my musings between bites on the pier and surf I’ve often thought that the past few years of abysmal fishing down here in the South end could be due to poor survival in LM due to mussels etc... maybe something else too? Always bothered me that the stock numbers are staying the same but returns are going down.

I tried to blame the boat guys but I think most trollers/charters are targeting Lakers when the chips are down and fish need to come over the rail.

Only time will tell I suppose.

Thanks to Mark and all DNR Staff who dare post here. I find it extremely helpful and enjoy the information


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Thanks for the additional insight, Mark. And for all your contributions on this site.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

First day of steelhead egg take 2019 is in the books. We spawned right around 200 females today, and ultimately passed just over 300 fish. Biggest fish today was over 18 lbs, and we had probably 15 or 20 more that were over 14 lbs. Mostly big brute males. 

We should have enough ripe fish on hand to get through another 200 hens tomorrow. While we seem to have plenty of fish on hand, it will be a crapshoot on whether or not they're ripe enough to continue on Thursday.


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## PunyTrout (Mar 23, 2007)

M. Tonello said:


> We spawned right around 200 females today, and ultimately passed just over 300 fish. Biggest fish today was over 18 lbs, and we had probably 15 or 20 more that were over 14 lbs. Mostly big brute males.


Mark: You need to get yourself a smart phone with a camera. Post some pictures man!  :lol:


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## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

M. Tonello said:


> First day of steelhead egg take 2019 is in the books. We spawned right around 200 females today, and ultimately passed just over 300 fish. Biggest fish today was over 18 lbs, and we had probably 15 or 20 more that were over 14 lbs. Mostly big brute males.
> 
> We should have enough ripe fish on hand to get through another 200 hens tomorrow. While we seem to have plenty of fish on hand, it will be a crapshoot on whether or not they're ripe enough to continue on Thursday.


 I do appreciate the dnr letting us know what's going on, I'm sorry if I sound like a grumpy old fart, but if it's a crap shoot, on fish being ripe, then wait a day or 2, my goodness if our steelhead plant depends on those eggs, forget what ever it is that takes u away from waiting on them ripe eggs,,,,, your pal river bob,,,,, what about those sand eels,,,,,, thanks


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## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

If I misunderstood your post, u have my permission to shoot me first,


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Day 2 of steelhead egg take 2019 is in the books. Went well again. Spawned 230 females, and passed 464 fish. Season total so far is now 768 steelhead passed. Biggest fish today was 18.9 lbs. Again had a number of brute males between 14 and 17 lbs. Good luck landing them in that little river! At this point the plan is to hold off on the next egg take until next tuesday, April 25. We need basically two more days of egg take, so we're hoping to that tuesday and wednesday of next week will be the days and we'll be able to pull the weir grates after that.


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## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

Good job, well done


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## Matt3ddsteel (Jan 10, 2002)

How high is the little river right now? is it fishable?


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

Matt3ddsteel said:


> How high is the little river right now? is it fishable?


It should be fishable with the rain that we have had. Seeing as how there is very little snow runoff. I'm hoping for good conditions next week I will be up there all week.


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## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

every time I see, or hear skipper, I jump to attention, good luck skip


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## Matt3ddsteel (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm headin up tomorrow. Will report back.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

We did a Facebook video yesterday that shows the facility and the egg take procedure. FYI I'm the guy spawning the males. Check it out here:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=275231283361468


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## flyrodder46 (Dec 31, 2011)

Mark, you had a very short part in this vid, but a very important job, nice to see you again and we appreciate the job you all do.


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## neazor91 (Aug 4, 2008)

Very interesting video. That's quite an operation. Thanks Mark.


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## cruzer (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks Mark!!!!!


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Great video to help people understand the process.

This just screams for a Perch-milking video. :evil:


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

M. Tonello said:


> We did a Facebook video yesterday that shows the facility and the egg take procedure. FYI I'm the guy spawning the males. Check it out here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very cool video Mark. Thanks for sharing,.... but whoever closed captioned it has no knowledge if fishing, or even the English language


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## Vicious Fishous (Sep 12, 2006)

I watched it muted in bed this morning, cracking up at the captioning.


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

We completed the third day of steelhead egg take today at the Little Manistee Weir. We spawned 261 females, passing a total of 555 fish. That makes a season total of 1,323 steelhead passed so far. We plan to take eggs again tomorrow. If all goes well, that should complete it for 2019. Depending on how long the egg take goes, we may be able to lift the grates tomorrow afternoon. If everything goes well, we should be able to empty the ponds on thursday. Biggest fish today was 18.2 lbs. The pic is from one of the 18+ lb fish from last week.


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## seabass810 (Apr 2, 2010)

I have a date with one of those 18lbers this fall. I hope


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## M. Tonello (Sep 20, 2002)

Yesterday we completed the 2019 steelhead egg take, spawning 181 females. We passed 1,187 fish, for a season total of 2,510. The grates were removed, so there is now free fish passage. All of the ponds were emptied and dewatered. All in all, a good spring for us down there.


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## Slimits (Jun 30, 2014)

How many spawning runs you think that 18 lb been through?


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## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

I would guess 3, n thats just a guess


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

I would guess that big ole male was on his first, and only spawning run. Buck Steelhead pretty much spawn until they are about dead. Most return spawners are hens. But I could be wrong. If I am right, that fish grew to 18+ pounds in about 3 or 4 years. But it is possible, and even likely that it spent more than 1 in the Little River before smolting. In the Pacific Northwest, studies have found that, in the rivers that get the largest Steelhead, the biggest fish sometimes spend up to 7 years in their natal rivers before smolting. And they smolt at 3# - 5#, which gives them an advantage in feeding, and avoiding predators in the ocean.


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## riverbob (Jan 11, 2011)

I did not know that,,,,,, a long with all the other things I don't know


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