# MI DNR Puts an end to Wood Duck Nesting Boxes



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Agree Branta. And just to be clear guys and gals, I'm not for or against this issue at all. I'm just trying to keep you all from burning down the Mason Building in Lansing (DNRE HQ) :evilsmile I'm hopeful that calmer minds will prevail all around, and that a reasonable solution will be found.


----------



## TeamFowlAssassins (Nov 7, 2007)

Branta said:


> TFA- Again, I would strongly suggest that you look into float banding. if you need info, send me a PM and I'd be happy to help you out.
> 
> keep in mind that the work you're currently doing, for all the good it has done and will continue to do could also cost the state some penalty from the USFWS. YOU don't hold the federal banding permit - the state does. think of it this way; So If I (being the USFWS) say Stephanie (MDNRE), you can only band on even numbered tuesdays.... you band only on even numbered tuesdays. If I catch wind that you're doing it on mon, tues, wed, thurs.... I can revoke that permit, cause you greif, block other pet projects you'd like some fed help on..... - doesn't matter how much good you're doing for the resource. it's their game - their rules.
> 
> ...


 

I understand somewhat on the laws & Fed related stuff on are banding. This is just frustrating that this just came up after 15 years, and now all of a sudden has to be adresses ASAP... You know my frustration here, but like you said it's their rules!
Were not sure on what were going to do as of this point, and told the DNR they can come pick up are bands if they need them because were not bringing them to them... So I'll mentione the float banding idea to my Dad, and thanks for the info.


----------



## FullBody (Nov 4, 2008)

I just hope the DNRE will have some actual evidence other than...it "COULD" possibly affect the hen while nesting.

Hopefully some research/study was done to prove a negative impact. Not based soley on the "could" part. 

Seems the Browers have 15 years of research/data to prove that they have had a very positive impact and that it doesn't affect the nesting whatsoever.


----------



## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

Don't be so down. I wouldn't want this to dampen any of your (or your fathers) enthusiasm for "giving back" to the resource. it's all very commendable.

maybe this example is would be a bit clearer; let's say you used to cross a neighbors yard everyday for 15 years straight without incident. Today, the neighbor says; "Hey, I never realized you were cutting through my yard. stop doing it and go around."

Please tell me you're not going to egg their house now cuz you're PO'd, are you?! 

nope. you're going to go around (get those float traps) and get to the same objective. might just find the scenery is even nicer! 

Hold onto the bands, don't do the "fine, come git yer toys" stance, just find another way to meet your same objective. that's all I'm saying. 

And given what the MDNRE has to work with and restricted budgets, I'm sure there's other volunteer banding operations that you'd be perfect for later in the summer/early fall. Please take advantage of it.


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Even if the hen IS disturbed, I can't see that the banding efforts have hurt anything. It certainly hasn't hurt the wood duck populations in this state. 

I certainly hope this doesn't impact other types of VOLUNTEER banding, like the woodcock program. There's been mutterings about that, too, over the years, because it isn't being done by "professionals".

I know they stopped the Common loon banding years ago, and now they have no way of knowing what the loon population is doing, other than rough counts by those same "untrained" volunteers. 

I hope this all gets settled to everyone's satisfaction, and not to the detriment of wood duck research. 

But then, wildlife research of any type is quickly becoming a thing of the past no matter where you go these days....:sad:


----------



## Ruger-44 (Apr 2, 2009)

Pat -- I know the hard work you and your Dad do and I think it's awesome. It definitely inspired me to try to do a little to help around here. If you decide to use a different method and need help, let me know. If I can, I'd be glad to lend a hand.


----------



## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

Interesting. It is well known that if you disturb a hen during laying there is a good chance she will abandon the nest. However if the hen is incubating (or very close) she will return to the nest. I have never heard of projects being shut down because of disturbing nesting hens, if so, Delta and DU are guilty of disturbing thousands of nests on a yearly basis.

I guess my question to you and your dad is what valuble info are you providing the DNR with your banding efforts. Look at it from the DNR prospective, is your data (180 boxes) going to really influence harvest/recruitment data? Who ever the banding permit is issued under probably couldnt justify your banding efforts to the head honchos. I dont think people understand the hoops you have to jump through and how difficult it actually is to obtain a banding permit. If your pet project is not contributing something new to science, i am afraid your SOL.

That being said, dont give up, you may have to just alter your banding strategy. I have a good friend that has a very large on going wood duck project out west and they have really perfected trapping the little buggers. They continue to band, even using tarsal bands on wood ducks and this has lead to some very valuble info. If you want his info just PM me.

Your efforts for maintaining 180 boxes is commended. Just because you have had the plug pulled on your ability to band, this shouldnt alter your future efforts in maintainign the boxes.


----------



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I guess from what I understand of the situation you know more about wood ducks than the feds or the DNR. They cannot come up with a satisfactory solution to the issue other than to tell you to stop. Without biological evidence that you are hurting nesting wood ducks they are just showing their ignorance. Lately the DNR and USFWS have both shown lots of incompetence and ignorance over fish and wildlife issues. Give them a few more years and their ignorance will put them in front of the unemployment line. I can tell you how much the USFWS biologists know. I confronted 8 of them a couple of years ago after I had just landed an Atlantic Salmon. They were out checking lamphrey traps on the Carp River and all 8 of them thought that the fish was a steelhead. That is like calling a mallard a green wing teal.


----------



## Big Cans (Oct 25, 2007)

Separation of the classes

Health Care
now our Woodies.

Just like Socialism and Communism


----------



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Robert Holmes said:


> I guess from what I understand of the situation you know more about wood ducks than the feds or the DNR. They cannot come up with a satisfactory solution to the issue other than to tell you to stop. Without biological evidence that you are hurting nesting wood ducks they are just showing their ignorance. Lately the DNR and USFWS have both shown lots of incompetence and ignorance over fish and wildlife issues. Give them a few more years and their ignorance will put them in front of the unemployment line. I can tell you how much the USFWS biologists know. I confronted 8 of them a couple of years ago after I had just landed an Atlantic Salmon. They were out checking lamphrey traps on the Carp River and all 8 of them thought that the fish was a steelhead. That is like calling a mallard a green wing teal.


Oh boy, you gotta be kidding me! Here we go again with a CO bashing, both state and federal. Before you start ranting about how much the CO in the field does not know, try to understand the complexity of what a Michigan CO has to deal with on a daily basis, or a USFW officer. It's very easy for us who are very involved in a particular pastime to say "can you believe he didn't even know the difference between a steelhead and an atlantic salmon...shouldn't he know that?" Of course they should...just like they should know the difference between a bluebill hen and a redhead hen, a brook trout from a lake trout, and a myriad of other issues around hunting and fishing, and other issues dealing with our natural resources. To believe all DNRE or USFW staff should know ALL of these things is unrealistic. They never have, and never will, know EVERYTHING. Do you know EVERYTHING about your particular field? 

I'll defend these women and men to the death that they do their best with a very, very difficult and complex job. Do you even know that these were CO's and not wildlife techs or some other type of job? Okay, I'm done. Sorry, you just hit a sore subject with me lately.


----------



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

wavie said:


> Interesting. It is well known that if you disturb a hen during laying there is a good chance she will abandon the nest. However if the hen is incubating (or very close) she will return to the nest. I have never heard of projects being shut down because of disturbing nesting hens, if so, Delta and DU are guilty of disturbing thousands of nests on a yearly basis.
> 
> I guess my question to you and your dad is what valuble info are you providing the DNR with your banding efforts. Look at it from the DNR prospective, is your data (180 boxes) going to really influence harvest/recruitment data? Who ever the banding permit is issued under probably couldnt justify your banding efforts to the head honchos. I dont think people understand the hoops you have to jump through and how difficult it actually is to obtain a banding permit. If your pet project is not contributing something new to science, i am afraid your SOL.
> 
> ...


Very spot on post Wavie! The DNRE has apparently decided the cannot support this method of banding, and the way I understand it, the DNRE is the permit holder, so they basically make the rules. So that's a lost cause. What will they come back with as a compromise? I'm sure it will be some other method such as you suggest, or some other time of year. 

You are also absolutely correct that they shouldn't abandon the good work in box placement and maintenance that they've done over the years. That in itself is huge, and we all owe you a debt of thanks for it.


----------



## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

just ducky said:


> I understand it, the DNRE is the permit holder, so they basically make the rules.


The DNRE may be the permit holder, however it is ultimately the feds that dictate who and who cant receive banding permits. If they ultimately think that a bird maybe affected some how, especially during nesting.....denied! The rules for obtaining permits are so strict, its amazing they allow it all.


----------



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

wavie said:


> The DNRE may be the permit holder, however it is ultimately the feds that dictate who and who cant receive banding permits. If they ultimately think that a bird maybe affected some how, especially during nesting.....denied! The rules for obtaining permits are so strict, its amazing they allow it all.


That very well could be why this has gotten where it's gotten...maybe the feds are the ones having a real bird about this? Ya just never know for sure. All I can say is the Wildlife Chief Russ Mason contacted me last night about it...Russ is really good people  and not the kind to lie. That's all I'll say.


----------



## backroadstravler (Jul 12, 2006)

I think the Feds might be the fly in the ointment. D&P keep up the good work.


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

just ducky said:


> That very well could be why this has gotten where it's gotten...maybe the feds are the ones having a real bird about this? Ya just never know for sure. All I can say is the Wildlife Chief Russ Mason contacted me last night about it...Russ is really good people  and not the kind to lie. That's all I'll say.


i love the wood duck work that TFA has done. amazing dedication really. With that being said, i'll put my .002 in quick.

We have been blessed with a pickup like Russ Mason, please don't beat him up over this. The guy is absolutely the best guy we coulda ever wished for in the Duck Hunting community. I'm not just saying this to fluff the MDNR, If anyone gets a chance to talk duck with this guy, do it.

TFA, keep your head up, SFCHA has ran into these issues many times and it sucks. I can remember SFCHA going on to the flats to check certain things to make sure our season would operate (checking pumps and drains...etc..) flawlessly until someone complained and said it was unfair...we then had to go thru a process to achieve this. We still do it, now we just have to do it on their timeframe. Yeah it sucks, but sometimes the bureaucracy is a bitch (lol) i feel for ya...just keep pluggin away and do what you can. I would hate to see the banding end over this flap.


----------



## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

To be so passionate about something, and wanting so bad to give back to it. It sucks that politcal red tape B.S. gets in the way. 

I am betting that if you thought for one second it was causing any stress not needed to those birds, you would stop. Your research shows you are not. 

It must feel like getting kicked in the chest by a mule. 

I wish you luck in continuing what you are doing.


----------



## Iceman_101 (Jan 11, 2009)

Well i am with TeamFowlAssassins on this one all the DNR ever seems to do these days is screw everything up!!!! They say they all there studies and stuff but where are the results at. For an example they are talking about issueing another 2000 bear tags for the state of MI this next year!!!!! The bear populations are so far gone i don't think we will ever be able to recooperate from it!!!! I just don't want to see this happen to the ducks i agree with every form of research out there that helps them!!! Thats just my 2 cents worth.

Iceman_101


----------



## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

guys keep in mind its not the MDNR with the issue. their hands are tied by the feds. Once they become aware of a situation and choose not to act, they can become liable. What they are doing is trying to come up with a solution. If they are aware of something deemed illegal by the feds, they have a responsibility to stop it or risk losing everything. I think Barb and Russ are trying to find a solution but their hands may be tied by federal restrictions.

and so here we are where TFA is in a position where he can't continue as they were and it sucks. But please don't beat up the DNR people on this without knowing who's doing what.


----------



## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Iceman_101 said:


> Well i am with TeamFowlAssassins on this one all the DNR ever seems to do these days is screw everything up!!!! They say they all there studies and stuff but where are the results at. For an example they are talking about issueing another 2000 bear tags for the state of MI this next year!!!!! The bear populations are so far gone i don't think we will ever be able to recooperate from it!!!! I just don't want to see this happen to the ducks i agree with every form of research out there that helps them!!! Thats just my 2 cents worth.
> 
> Iceman_101


Okay, here I go again, defending the DNRE (I just can't help it guys).

Please provide facts that support the statement "The bear populations are so far gone i don't think we will ever be able to recooperate from it!!!!" As far as I know, that's not the case. My own personal experience in the UP over the past few years has been that I've seen more bears than I ever have in the Schoolcraft County area. There is even a documented case of one or more right here near my home (just north of Lansing :yikes. Again if you have facts from some credible source that indicates the bear population is dropping fast, I'm all ears. 

I'm going to say it once again...it's very easy to criticize the DNRE staff, whether it's the Wildlife Division, Law Enforcement (CO's), or whatever. But if you've talked with them at all, you'll understand that staffing cuts and reductions to their budgets have decimated the department in the last 20 years. 

My spin...it's amazing they can do what they can do now with what they have to deal with. It's pretty bleak if you compare with what they had in the 80's & 90's. Yet a guy like Russ Mason, the Wildlife Division Chief, thought enough of Michigan that he willingly chose to come to Michigan from the west (Montana maybe?) at the request of Director Humphries. That's just one example. 

So before you're so quick to criticize these men and women, put yourself in their shoes for a minute.


----------



## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Dan, the real issue is that the DNR has to quantify every decision they make. Before a regulation can be changed they have to do numerous studies, public hearings etc... They have to do their due diligence. When people slam the DNR over the bear permits, for example, they do not need to perform due diligence, they can just slam away with nothing to quantify their opinion. Sort like the trout reg changes on the Mo, everyone thinks they are an expert if they spend quite a bit of time on the river, but the DNR has the obligation to manage the resource for everyone and are the ones performing creel census, shocking, etc... before they can make a change. Easy to arm chair quarterback these things without having the put in the effort to prove your point.


----------

