# Pointer folks...



## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

It seems like there has been an outbreak of Pointers in the last 3-4 years. I remember when I got Chopper (almost 8 years ago), I had recently started running dogs with Bruce and was really turned on to their attributes. Not only did I like their style, speed, athleticism, and natural ability, I really loved their personalities. I also liked the fact that none of the people that I hunted with had them. As a matter of fact, nobody that I knew at the time that wasn't a trialer had one. 

Now, almost 8 years later that has changed dramatically. What brought you to the breed? And, now that you own and have hunted with them, what do honestly like and dislike about them?


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Additionally, who out there does not have one, but is thinking about it? What is it about them that is making you consider owning one?


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

I'll bite... 

I have an ever increasing list of breeds that I consider for my next dog... included on that list is a pointer. Why? Because I believe they approach game like setters, and I enjoy the idea of not having to trim a dogs feet before hunts in the snow. Also, my setter is certainly on the soft side mentally and pointers are harder headed dogs. 

I think you know what you have sooner with a pointer, than a setter.


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## Birdsonthebrain (Nov 3, 2009)

The first thing that really sold me on a pointer was watching Paul Fisher's dog Rip run in a spring hunting dog trial at Gladwin. I was mezmerized watching him run and point birds, it was like he had a map where the birds were planted and he just moved between one point to another. He also found at least one woodcock & a grouse and handled them all flawlessley.
Shortly after that I was in line for another Weim and there were some issues with birth of the pups so, I went back on the list. Shortly after that Bruce put a post about about a couple of Pointer pups for sale. I set up a time to meet Bruce and the pups. I was about to pull the trigger on one of the pups and Bruce brought out another pup and we immediatly decided on him instead. Bruce & Jenni are some of the best people I have ever meet and have helped me along the way a lot.

It seemed like Hutch's personality and me bonding with him took awhile. When we got him he was 4.5 months old. But, he has proven that he can adapt to any situation. Hunting or otherwise.

I really like the pointers never quit attitude. I have no doubt that Hutch would run himself until he died from exaustion or heart attack or whatever....

The only fault I can find in Hutch has a tendancy to find birds in the most god awful places on earth. Several guys on hear can attest to that fact.

There are several other breeds that I think I could enjoy following around the woods, but i am sure I will always own a pointer.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

They're beautiful animals. 


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

I think the success of HiFive kennels in the woods opened a lot of peoples eyes to what those scrawny little quail dogs could do in the grouse woods. 
For me it was one dog in particular, HiFive's Wrangler call name Rudy. 
I couldn't get my hands on one of her pups but got a pup out her full blooded sister and it was off to the races, literally :yikes: for a couple seasons but now things have settled in well between us. She will be my top dog this Fall.
She had a very good spring wc banding season and has been tearing it up this summer so far.
I think it's easier to find what I want in grouse dog in the Pointer breed than in a Setter right now, I went back for another HiFive dog this past winter.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> For me it was one dog in particular, HiFive's Wrangler call name Rudy.
> 
> I couldn't get my hands on one of her pups but got a pup out her full blooded sister


I was around Rudy at the kennel, ran her with Bruce, and was lucky enough to hunt over her a couple times with Bruce and Dan. She is what did it for me also. A legendary bird dog, but an outstanding personality that made you want to take her home. She was awesome.

I didn't really put together how similar our situations were. Chopper is out of a dog that Bruce called Red. I can't remember who the owner was, but she is also out of Tig and Buster (a Rowdy littermate if I remember correctly). 

Now we both have a dog out of HiFive's Mishap. Chopper and Kater have some similarities and so do Buck and Chief by the sounds of it. Should be a fun season. I look forward to checking out Buck, Scott.


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## Birdsonthebrain (Nov 3, 2009)

Hevi said:


> I was around Rudy at the kennel, ran her with Bruce, and was lucky enough to hunt over her a couple times with Bruce and Dan. She is what did it for me also. A legendary bird dog, but an outstanding personality that made you want to take her home. She was awesome.
> .


 
I feel very fortunate to have gotten to see Rudy & Butch both run. But, it was after I had bought one of their pups.

I cant think of a Hifive's dog i didn't enjoy. But there are a few personalities that stick out in my mind Rudy, Butch, Marley,...... Scott's pups sire Johnny is definately one of them. No offense to any of the others, I just really liked them.


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

I think you guys are getting pointers because of a deep seated fear of aging and the consequent degeneration of your bodies. You believe that if you hang with ripped dogs people will think that under all that gear you're ripped too. Or it could be that your getting pointers because you know that if you drop dead in the woods the dog won't give a s--t and be happy to go with the next guy that can afford a bag of Wal Mart food. Last but not least when the hound runs off it gives you an excuse for your low grouse production. They do seem quite capable of handling woodcock for whatever that's worth. 
Warm Regards, Mac


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Last thought, Cuz they only live to about 9, see Rudy and Butch, the turn around time until you can finally admit that you want a Heller Lab is much shorter than with the other hunting breeds.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Nice cheap shot at two magnificent dogs that died before their time Mac.

Real classy.


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## J-Lee (Jul 11, 2000)

That is some funny s--t Mac, thanks for the laugh. Bruce breeds some beautiful pointers, that can get it done. If I was going to buy a pointer it would be one of his, or steal Kate or Rock.:evilsmile


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> Last thought, Cuz they only live to about 9, see Rudy and Butch, the turn around time until you can finally admit that you want a Heller Lab is much shorter than with the other hunting breeds.


 
Fritz, get off Doc's computer.


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

As a pointer owner, spot on Mac! LOL! Especially the part where he's waiting for me to drop dead. Mine seems to be hoping rather than waiting however


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Nice cheap shot at two magnificent dogs that died before their time Mac.
> 
> Real classy.


 
Although the post was an attempt at humor, it obviously hit a nerve. Personally I never think it's a cheap shot if it's true. If someone teases me about my weight I'm not hurt I'm motivated. Others may not want to discuss it but many feel that the 11 year old pointer is the exception not the rule. Longevity is usually related to genetics. mac


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

I've thought about it in the past, but when I compare what I'd be looking for in the EP with what I already have in the setters I can't justify the switch. Had my Roy dog out in 83 degree heat Saturday, and he dug up 3 woodcock and 2 grouse for me. The 10 year old setter also gave me a good run at the hunting dog trial a couple weeks ago in 80 plus degree heat.


If I was at a point where I needed dog power and there wasn't a promising setter litter on the ground an EP would be next on the list.


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

I went with a pointer for a lot of the reasons already mentioned. I wanted a heat tolerant dog with a short coat. No question the success of Hifive kennel in the woods influenced the breeder I picked. I have a little experience with a wider ranging dog so the range factor didn't scare me. I'm still early in the pointer owning process so I guess I'll see how it goes. FWIW Abby is the best behaved house dog that I have owned. She is very young but seems to have the off switch that until now I had only heard about.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> If someone teases me about my weight I'm not hurt I'm motivated.


What about your height?


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

Sweet baby Jesus! It is Upland Forum SUICIDE to criticize/joke about a certain kennel/line of dogs around here. Good God man, what were you thinking!

I learned my lesson


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Good luck on your search Frank!


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Bonz 54 said:


> I think one of the least known qualities of the Pointer is their personalities.


 
I absolutely agree. My wife had never shared a house with a hunting dog and didn't know what to think when we started dating. She will be the first to tell you that our house will never be without a Pointer.

I think that people who are under the impression that house dogs can't be hunting dogs listened to their great grandpa a little too much. Sure, great grandpas have some great advice, but they are also slow to say, "great grandma runs **** around this house". So, they made up some stupid excuse as to why their best friend had to live in the barn.


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## Bonz 54 (Apr 17, 2005)

Remember, never, never, never Spoil your Birddogs:










As it should be.....  FRANK


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Mike McDonald said:


> Although the post was an attempt at humor, it obviously hit a nerve. Personally I never think it's a cheap shot if it's true. If someone teases me about my weight I'm not hurt I'm motivated. Others may not want to discuss it but many feel that the 11 year old pointer is the exception not the rule. Longevity is usually related to genetics. mac


Longevity in Pointers is not something specific to any one kennel. The breed has a problem IMO and it is showing up most prominently in field lines (the bench dogs seem to fair better). It doesn't take a lot of searching by way of Google or Bing to find several instances where Pointers appear to be dropping like flies at young ages. It does not seem to matter if they're Elhew, Miller, Fiddler, Honky Tonk, Railway, or whatever. 

I love the breed for many many many reasons, I own three of them, but if this trend continues I'll probably start looking for another breed. I don't invest time and money in a dog to have it die on me in 2-7 years. Some might not mind that, but I do. 

Sorry, this is a topic I've been researching of late and the more I find out, the angrier I get.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Longevity in Pointers is not something specific to any one kennel. The breed has a problem IMO and it is showing up most prominently in field lines (the bench dogs seem to fair better). It doesn't take a lot of searching by way of Google or Bing to find several instances where Pointers appear to be dropping like flies at young ages. It does not seem to matter if they're Elhew, Miller, Fiddler, Honky Tonk, Railway, or whatever.
> 
> I love the breed for many many many reasons, I own three of them, but if this trend continues I'll probably start looking for another breed. I don't invest time and money in a dog to have it die on me in 2-7 years. Some might not mind that, but I do.
> 
> Sorry, this is a topic I've been researching of late and the more I find out, the angrier I get.



So what is the cause of death of all these young pointers?


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Lucky Dog said:


> So what is the cause of death of all these young pointers?


From what I can tell it's cancer, cancer, cancer. And a lot of people don't want to talk about it or point fingers at where it's coming from.

I still think the breed is healthier than most. But something is definitely wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> From what I can tell it's cancer, cancer, cancer. And a lot of people don't want to talk about it or point fingers at where it's coming from.
> 
> I still think the breed is healthier than most. But something is definitely wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jarl, you appear more positive than in the past that something horrible is going-on, can I presume that you've seen some fresh statistical evidence? If it's true, it's true, but I guess from the non-scientific, empirical evidence that I see, there's nothing happening to skew the average age of death. Or is there?


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Lucky Dog said:


> So what is the cause of death of all these young pointers?


The owners after they have searched for them for ten hours!


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

A famous RGS guy from my area, or should I say infamous, told one once "a ten year old pointer is ancient, most of the time the two c"s get em by then" Cancer or Cars.

No breed has ever been as line bred as pointers.

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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> Jarl, you appear more positive than in the past that something horrible is going-on, can I presume that you've seen some fresh statistical evidence? If it's true, it's true, but I guess from the non-scientific, empirical evidence that I see, there's nothing happening to skew the average age of death. Or is there?


I've heard that many times as well but, I don't know of any more pointers that die at age 7 or 8 than anything else. My last shorthair died at age 9 many of my families goldens never made it to their tenth birthday either. I think most of the evidence is anecdotal at best.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

I heard this from Fritz a while back and didn't want to believe it. I've heard it a couple of times since and both times the conversation revolved around cancer. 

What I don't buy into is, every pointer is just going to drop dead at 9 or 10 years old. However, I can tell you if one of my dogs were to get cancer at 9 or 10 they would never have to grow old and suffer. As cold as it may sound it's less selfish than letting dogs deteriorate like some do.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> A famous RGS guy from my area, or should I say infamous, told one once "a ten year old pointer is ancient, most of the time the two c"s get em by then" Cancer or Cars.
> 
> No breed has ever been as line bred as pointers.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Although he has come close to killing himself several times Major is a couple months shy of 11 and still thinks he's about 4.
I will say that some of the modern Elhew pedigrees that I've seen lately have been extremely tight, which is obviously a concern for both quality and health reasons. 



BIGSP said:


> I've heard that many times as well but, I don't know of any more pointers that die at age 7 or 8 than anything else. My last shorthair died at age 9 many of my families goldens never made it to their tenth birthday either. I think most of the evidence is anecdotal at best.


Yep, I too hear it frequently, but I see enough old dogs (13-15) to lead me to believe the average of 11-12 hasn't moved much. Occasional early death happens to all breeds (I saw a nice field bred setter go at about 5-6 recently from an unknown cause).
So far, I haven't seen enough evidence to prevent me from owning more of them.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Hevi said:


> I heard this from Fritz a while back and didn't want to believe it. I've heard it a couple of times since and both times the conversation revolved around cancer.
> 
> What I don't buy into is, every pointer is just going to drop dead at 9 or 10 years old. However, I can tell you if one of my dogs were to get cancer at 9 or 10 they would never have to grow old and suffer. As cold as it may sound it's less selfish than letting dogs deteriorate like some do.


It's not cold it is just the right thing to do.

The health condition with pointers I've often wondered about is ACL tears or ruptures. Not sure if it is more common than in the dog population as a whole but in my little bird dog world it seems so.

Maybe any Vets on the board could chime in.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> Maybe any Vets on the board could chime in.


Dr. Michael McDonald, could you shed some light on this, sir?


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## J-Lee (Jul 11, 2000)

Hevi said:


> I heard this from Fritz a while back and didn't want to believe it. I've heard it a couple of times since and both times the conversation revolved around cancer.
> 
> What I don't buy into is, every pointer is just going to drop dead at 9 or 10 years old. However, I can tell you if one of my dogs were to get cancer at 9 or 10 they would never have to grow old and suffer. As cold as it may sound it's less selfish than letting dogs deteriorate like some do.


I just went through this very thing yesterday, with my German Shepherd, Osteo - Sarcoma. She was 9, I wouldn't let her suffer. She pulled up lame, took her to the vet, the grim news. She was a rock solid protector and loyal to my wife and I.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

J-Lee said:


> I just went through this very thing yesterday, with my German Shepherd, Osteo - Sarcoma. She was 9, I wouldn't let her suffer. She pulled up lame, took her to the vet, the grim news. She was a rock solid protector and loyal to my wife and I.


I'm very sorry for your loss. I had to do the same thing on September 2nd, 2009 with my GSP. He bloated, I took him to the vet, he said that it was likely kidney/liver failure and that it could be treated but not cured. He gave me the, "you can treat it, buuuuuut". I went to the vet with my best friend and came home with his collar. 

I took him outside one last time, scratched his ears, and that's the last time I got to see him. Makes me pretty emotional just thinking about it. Max was the first bird dog that I owned as an adult. I learned more from him than he learned from me, that's for sure. 

Cheers to the good ones. Sorry J-Lee.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> It's not cold it is just the right thing to do.
> 
> The health condition with pointers I've often wondered about is ACL tears or ruptures. Not sure if it is more common than in the dog population as a whole but in my little bird dog world it seems so.
> 
> Maybe any Vets on the board could chime in.


Just wondering if these ACL issues were on males, females, early spay? I just had my 4 year old pointer blow her acl she was a early spay dog.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> The health condition with pointers I've often wondered about is ACL tears or ruptures. Not sure if it is more common than in the dog population as a whole but in my little bird dog world it seems so.


The common denominator I've observed is in early spay females regardless of breed.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

FindTheBird said:


> Jarl, you appear more positive than in the past that something horrible is going-on, can I presume that you've seen some fresh statistical evidence? If it's true, it's true, but I guess from the non-scientific, empirical evidence that I see, there's nothing happening to skew the average age of death. Or is there?


I'm not more positive Mike, I just keep seeing and hearing about Pointers dying young and most often from cancer. As a whole the breed is long lived, or that's what I'm led to believe, but cancer seems to like to rear it's head and take out a lot of them. As in, they either live a good long life or they die before they reach their seventh birthday. 

I see lots of people say that if you want a dog that will live into old age, buy a setter. I rarely see that said about Pointers.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Hevi said:


> However, I can tell you if one of my dogs were to get cancer at 9 or 10 they would never have to grow old and suffer. As cold as it may sound it's less selfish than letting dogs deteriorate like some do.


I don't really disagree with this, but as Mike pointed out, Major is still going strong at 11 and I believe that Wrangler lost a field trial to a Pointer that was 10 or 11 at one point.

I would rather have a dog that can hunt into its teens than constantly be buying a new dog because no one bothered to stop breeding cancerous lines. 

To be blunt and probably unpopular, I think that some (not you Hevi) want dogs that expire young because old dogs don't win as much and become a liability.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> The common denominator I've observed is in early spay females regardless of breed.


I've only heard of one Pointer rupturing an ACL and it was a neutered male from questionable breeding.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I don't really disagree with this, but as Mike pointed out, Major is still going strong at 11 and I believe that Wrangler lost a field trial to a Pointer that was 10 or 11 at one point.
> 
> I would rather have a dog that can hunt into its teens than constantly be buying a new dog because no one bothered to stop breeding cancerous lines.
> 
> To be blunt and probably unpopular, I think that some (not you Hevi) want dogs that expire young because old dogs don't win as much and become a liability.


 
I would love it if my dog could hunt effectively at 11 years old. Even if it's only one small cover per trip. At least I get my friend out there to do what he loves. 

I totally agree with the statement of not wanting to start fresh also. It's a pain, but a reality. Sometimes it happens too soon, as was the case with my GSP. He was just getting good on grouse after two full seasons and 13 days before his third, he was a memory (at 7 yrs old). 

However, I did have the conversation with Fritz last night about this on the phone. If my dog got sick after hunting 8 or 9 full seasons and had to be put down, fine. I would almost rather this happen so he wouldn't have to see me pack my gear up, load two other dogs in the truck, and pull out of the driveway without him. Do I want my dog to die? Hell no. Do I want him to die with dignity and comfort? Absolutely. And WCH, I took no offense to the statement and agree with the last one also. Nobody wishes their dog dead whether it is a hunting dog, lap dog, or trial dog. But, if that dog is just using up food and a kennel run and dog food, I'm sure there are people out there that wouldn't care either way. For some, it's business and that dog is simply a tool; just another reality.


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## Drifter Saver (Sep 13, 2005)

Though there has been recent interest in Pointers recently, there are not very many people in Michigan who have enough history with different lines and any sort of quantity concerning those specific lines to even try to determine a trend.

My family, including me obviously, have had Pointers for almost 50 years. I also have very good friends in Kansas and Indiana that have run exclusively Pointers for their entire lives (which is over 30 years of running dogs). The breeding over time has altered the breed (good and bad). From tails to rear leg bend to heath concerns (cancer, cherry eye or crooked feet), there has been a lot of change. There will always be exceptions to every rule. Pointers, far and away, have demonstrated the shortest average life span and most of them were lost to cancer. It minimizes the time you have with them, but increases the opportunity for more dogs. This doesn't fit everyone, but it does for me. ACL injuries, though nobody states it, have shown strong connections to genetics. However, it is an athletic type injury that any dog can sustain. I know of multiple generations that show direct links to ACL injuries. I avoid those lines.

My experience is that on average, they aren't as smart as the other main breeds but they will hunt harder than most and not generally be distracted from it.

A lot of negative press, but I have them and will always have them. I will also always have GSP's as I prefer the easy coat maintenance of both breeds. I can't wait to get them all out for the regular season in just a few more days.

Carry on


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Thanks for the objective input, Joe. 

Are we going to try and plan a day up north without you blowing your transmission this year?


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

How many or is there such a thing as a dual champion pointer?


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

hehibrits said:


> How many or is there such a thing as a dual champion pointer?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I'm not sure about their numbers, but dual champion Pointers exist. Scanpoints Touch O'Troll was the first one in the US I believe and he was mostly out of European imports. Nice bloodline for foot hunting. Their numbers are slowly growing but you're into niche stuff there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bonz 54 (Apr 17, 2005)

HeHi,

That was a good question. I looked it up at AKC and couldn't find any information, but I found a link to the American Pointer Club, The APC. From 1974 to present they list ONE dog as a Dual Champion/DC. However, he is only listed as a Master Hunter/MH. 

Brittany's still hold the crown for the most DC's of any AKC recognized breed. BTW, the Pointer in the photograph does not look ANYTHING like what we are used to seeing. Very much like the difference between and Show English Setter and a Field Bred. FRANK


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Bonz 54 said:


> HeHi,
> 
> That was a good question. I looked it up at AKC and couldn't find any information, but I found a link to the American Pointer Club, The APC. From 1974 to present they list ONE dog as a Dual Champion/DC. However, he is only listed as a Master Hunter/MH.
> 
> Brittany's still hold the crown for the most DC's of any AKC recognized breed. BTW, the Pointer in the photograph does not look ANYTHING like what we are used to seeing. Very much like the difference between and Show English Setter and a Field Bred. FRANK


This dog has at least six descendents that became dual champions in this country...

http://www.americanpointerclub.org/hofDCSCANPOINTSTOUCHOTROLL.shtml

Here's another...

http://www.americanpointerclub.org/hofDCWOODSPOINTREMINGTONCDMHVAX.shtml


There are more than that, but the numbers are indeed *very* small. Probably because there is not really a tradition for it like there is for Brittanys. If you can find dogs out of such lines they are worth a look if range is a concern and a 12 o'clock tail isn't important to you. 

Show bred Pointers look like Pointers anywhere else in the world besides North America. But looks aside, there is a split between show and field lines abroad as well but it has to do with hunting ability and not as much in looks.


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

WestCoastHunter said:


> This dog has at least six descendents that became dual champions in this country...
> 
> http://www.americanpointerclub.org/hofDCSCANPOINTSTOUCHOTROLL.shtml
> 
> ...


I was just curious, I did a quick google search and didn't find much. I am not sure what you mean by "there is not really a tradition for it like there is for Brittanys". What that leads me to believe is that conformation is not taken into consideration for breeding stock and I find that interesting but understandable. 


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

hehibrits said:


> I was just curious, I did a quick google search and didn't find much. I am not sure what you mean by "there is not really a tradition for it like there is for Brittanys". What that leads me to believe is that conformation is not taken into consideration for breeding stock and I find that interesting but understandable.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


There is a fairly long history of Brittanys getting titled in the show ring and in the field. "Dual champion" and the Brittany go together. 

But Pointers are a different story for some very straight forward reasons. Not the least of which is the very definite split between the field trial world and the show world. Most field trial Pointers will have a hard time doing well in the conformation ring and most show Pointers would have a hard time doing well in a field trial. To say there is disagreement between the two groups about what the dogs should look like, how they should be built, and even what their range should be is an understatement.

But 90% of Pointers in the US are of the field type. Statistically there will be very few dual dogs because of that and interestingly if you dig a little a lot of the "dual" Pointers, especially the early ones, actually have a good shot of European blood in them, not American show dogs going back 50-100 years. Why? Because Pointers abroad, show or hunt bred, generally look a lot like what Pointers 100 years ago did and that follows the AKC show standard more closely.

Or more simply put, the tail alone will cause a trial bred Pointer to lose in the show ring and a show Pointer to lose in trials. Brittanys don't have to worry about that as much. 

Or that's my story at least and I'm sticking with it. :lol:


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

hehibrits said:


> Outdoor Hub Campfire[/URL]


Because the show people have done such great things with labs, German shepherds, goldens and setters. No offense Matt but that was a ignorant statement in your part.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

hehibrits said:


> How many or is there such a thing as a dual champion pointer?
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


God I hope not!


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

BIGSP said:


> Because the show people have done such great things with labs, German shepherds, goldens and setters. No offense Matt but that was a ignorant statement in your part.


Ditto. Best thing for most breeds is to stay away from the AKC.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

Double Gun said:


> Ditto. Best thing for most breeds is to stay away from the AKC.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



Why would you say that?


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Not to disrail the whole dual champion debate but how many of the true grouse killers that are killing over 75 a year are using pointers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bonz 54 (Apr 17, 2005)

I only found the one D/C. I have never heard of a title JH, SH, or MH qualifying as a Dual Champion. FRANK


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## Ericgmci (Jun 27, 2010)

N M Mechanical said:


> Not to disrail the whole dual champion debate but how many of the true grouse killers that are killing over 75 a year are using pointers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


More like how many have that much time to hunt!!


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> Not to disrail the whole dual champion debate but how many of the true grouse killers that are killing over 75 a year are using pointers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If that's a typo and you meant 7.5; I do.


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

N M Mechanical said:


> Not to disrail the whole dual champion debate but how many of the true grouse killers that are killing over 75 a year are using pointers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm nowhere near that number, and sleep well knowing it.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> Not to disrail the whole dual champion debate but how many of the true grouse killers that are killing over 75 a year are using pointers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The *true* killers I know run Setters, Labs, and Brits.


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Hevi said:


> You weren't complaining the last time I showed up with a bottle of Crown Royal Reserve.


Nope. It's cause I had spawn juice and fish slime on the hand I stirred it up with 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## TimBuckTwo (Jan 3, 2009)

JJ_Jeruzal said:


> I don't think I've killed 75 total in my 5 or so years of grouse hunting:irked:
> 
> I'm pretty sure I've walk more than 75 miles though so let me know if you need an opinion on some quality boots.



:lol::lol::lol: 

Ditto


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

2ESRGR8 said:


> That's my HOW.
> But in all honesty, and you know this, I stopped keeping numbers about 3 years ago. It was getting in the way of my fun.


I just looked at my log book and the last entry was Nov 14 2009. I may keep track of contacts versus points for a couple of weekends for the new dog. I do know how many days I have hunted and # of birds killed each year. Keeping track of more than that seems like work.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Hevi said:


> _Everyone keep in mind that I have a ton of respect for Nick and this is not a dik swinging contest. But, I feel like I speak for a lot of weekend warriors. I used to hate them. Now I am "them"._
> 
> My best cover is three hours away. It used to be 9 minutes from my driveway. Moving down state to maintain state employment has put a dagger in the heart of my once "outdoor lifestyle".
> 
> ...


About as well said as it can be. 

Throw in a 17 month old plus a frazzled wife and it's even harder.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

The greatest single piece of grouse dog work I've ever witnessed was by the great grouse field trial champion Northern Dancer owned by Charles Evans and handled by Jim Tande.

"War" when released by his handler Jim Tande after a long flushing attempt on his initial point shot forward like he came out of a missle launcher and slammed to a lofty point with such suddeness and certainty that it literally sucked the wind from the galleries lungs.

It was what I would call a forceful relocation and a sure sign of a dog with a nose and the know how of how to use it. 

It left a big impression on me and to this day it is right at the pinnacle of what I've seen in grouse/dog interactions.

I have no interest in a pointer as an everyday grouse hunting dog but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate their place as the premiere pointing dog breed.


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> About as well said as it can be.
> 
> Throw in a 17 month old plus a frazzled wife and it's even harder.


 
Thanks. 

Did I forget to mention that I have an 8 month old male pointer pup? I also have a lovely wife that has never raised a puppy in her life. Not to mention a bird dog pup...or a pointer pup for that matter. She loves our older dog and always says, "he's just so perfect". I've tried to tell her how much of a little SOB he was. Now she understands that good house dogs are made...not born.


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## Birdsonthebrain (Nov 3, 2009)

N M Mechanical said:


> You must have:
> - Years of experience
> - A large amount of really good covers
> - The ability to shoot *very* well
> ...


 
Nick You *HAVE *to edit this post. Hurry before Mike reads this! Leave in the stuff about Ruger (I like that dog) That SOB mike is hard enough to be around already. And, with this and the fact that he has spent all summer prtacticing his shooting, he might start believing "I Wont Miss a Grouse all Year" BS


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

Not to worry Bob, I make sure Mike knows he's worthless on a consistent basis.

And since when was being in Nick's favor a compliment?


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Mr. Botek said:


> Not to worry Bob, I make sure Mike knows he's worthless on a consistent basis.
> 
> And since when was being in Nick's favor a compliment?


It is not
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Grush, What is the name of that app. I think my belly is interfering with an accurate measurement. mac


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Birdsonthebrain said:


> Nick You *HAVE *to edit this post. Hurry before Mike reads this! Leave in the stuff about Ruger (I like that dog) That SOB mike is hard enough to be around already. And, with this and the fact that he has spent all summer prtacticing his shooting, he might start believing "I Wont Miss a Grouse all Year" BS


He is still blind as a bat
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Birdsonthebrain (Nov 3, 2009)

N M Mechanical said:


> He is still blind as a bat
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Thats Nothing! You should see how he puts a transducer on a boat.

I have pictures, but I refuse to use them..... unless coaxed.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Birdsonthebrain said:


> Thats Nothing! You should see how he puts a transducer on a boat.
> 
> I have pictures, but I refuse to use them..... unless coaxed.


Coaxing now!!:lol:


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Birdsonthebrain said:


> And, with this and the fact that he has spent all summer prtacticing his shooting, he might start believing "I Wont Miss a Grouse all Year" BS


I wouldn't worry Bob... I'm quite certain he also spent all of LAST summer working on his shooting! :lol:


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

k9wernet said:


> I wouldn't worry Bob... I'm quite certain he also spent all of LAST summer working on his shooting! :lol:



All this hate must be born out of jealousy. He has a killer dog, great shooting piece, and I've never seen him miss a grouse.

A true grouse killer....


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Well I'll be... must have been the hat!


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

Lucky Dog said:


> A true grouse killer....


My apologies to a true grouse killer.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Mo pointers, mo problems!

I agree with what drifter saver said. 

Great pic LD. If ya can't be good, look good! . I think that was the last bird my pointer pointed. 

And I have been shooting a lot this summer. Honest. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Nice boots.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Obviously a photoshop


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Lucky Dog said:


> All this hate must be born out of jealousy. He has a killer dog, great shooting piece, and I've never seen him miss a grouse.
> 
> A true grouse killer....


I have a question. Is the cover in the photo something you would typically hunt? 

Where I hunt an aspen regen like that would generally not hold birds (grouse). Just not enough stem density. The only time that stuff works is if there is a chest/neck high understory of dogwood or beaked hazel. 

Just wondering as I know in the past that I've thought the cover you guys hunt just looks to have far less density or clutter than most of the cover we hunt and where we really find consistent numbers of grouse.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Jay Johnson said:


> I have a question. Is the cover in the photo something you would typically hunt?
> 
> Where I hunt an aspen regen like that would generally not hold birds (grouse). Just not enough stem density. The only time that stuff works is if there is a chest/neck high understory of dogwood or beaked hazel.
> 
> Just wondering as I know in the past that I've thought the cover you guys hunt just looks to have far less density or clutter than most of the cover we hunt and where we really find consistent numbers of grouse.


 
That is too wide open for also


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Jay Johnson said:


> I have a question. Is the cover in the photo something you would typically hunt?
> 
> Where I hunt an aspen regen like that would generally not hold birds (grouse). Just not enough stem density. The only time that stuff works is if there is a chest/neck high understory of dogwood or beaked hazel.
> 
> Just wondering as I know in the past that I've thought the cover you guys hunt just looks to have far less density or clutter than most of the cover we hunt and where we really find consistent numbers of grouse.


We hunt cover like that... Also, depending on the time of year and where we're finding birds... we might hunt a cover like that and expect to see a few less birds than something else, but expect better shots on the birds we see. 

People drive by a lot of grouse going to their "good spots". More time on the ground and less time in the car looking for perfect covers produces more birds for us.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

N M Mechanical said:


> That is too wide open for also


I can think of several covers like that which might not be what some consider a picture perfect cover... but when you mix in pocket of hawthorns/dogwoods/small pines/etc. I'd plan on seeing birds.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

FieldWalker said:


> We hunt cover like that... Also, depending on the time of year and where we're finding birds... we might hunt a cover like that and expect to see a few less birds than something else, but expect better shots on the birds we see.
> 
> People drive by a lot of grouse going to their "good spots". More time on the ground and less time in the car looking for perfect covers produces more birds for us.


I'm not much of a cover hopper. 

A typical hunt for me is to park the car. Turn the dogs loose and using the google map of the covert printed on photo paper in my pocket make a 3-5 hour loop staying as much as possible in the better cover within the covert.

We will find grouse in cover like that in the photo but just not in great enough numbers to spend time hunting it over something more productive. But like you say, when you do find a bird there, it makes for nice shooting.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

FieldWalker said:


> I can think of several covers like that which might not be what some consider a picture perfect cover... but when you mix in pocket of hawthorns/dogwoods/small pines/etc. I'd plan on seeing birds.


I spend a fair amount of driving between covers and only hunt premo stuff. If I'm not moving close to 4 birds an hour I'm not going to spend too much time there. I'd rather drive to another good spot. But I see your point. I waste a lot of the day driving unless I'm in the Yoop.


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

Jay Johnson said:


> I have a question. Is the cover in the photo something you would typically hunt?
> 
> Where I hunt an aspen regen like that would generally not hold birds (grouse). Just not enough stem density. The only time that stuff works is if there is a chest/neck high understory of dogwood or beaked hazel.
> 
> Just wondering as I know in the past that I've thought the cover you guys hunt just looks to have far less density or clutter than most of the cover we hunt and where we really find consistent numbers of grouse.


I sure wouldn't stop the truck for what I can see in the picture.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> I have a question. Is the cover in the photo something you would typically hunt?
> 
> Where I hunt an aspen regen like that would generally not hold birds (grouse). Just not enough stem density. The only time that stuff works is if there is a chest/neck high understory of dogwood or beaked hazel.
> 
> Just wondering as I know in the past that I've thought the cover you guys hunt just looks to have far less density or clutter than most of the cover we hunt and where we really find consistent numbers of grouse.


No. We have some covers that have this makeup but they are typically bordering something that has better overall cover. Covers similar to the one pictured with minimal stem density and ground cover don't yield the number of birds were looking for but can have a niche from time to time depending what is within or around them. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## mudbat2128 (Sep 7, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> I have a question. Is the cover in the photo something you would typically hunt?
> 
> Where I hunt an aspen regen like that would generally not hold birds (grouse). Just not enough stem density. The only time that stuff works is if there is a chest/neck high understory of dogwood or beaked hazel.
> 
> Just wondering as I know in the past that I've thought the cover you guys hunt just looks to have far less density or clutter than most of the cover we hunt and where we really find consistent numbers of grouse.


I will hit a cover like that if there is a pocket of food in there. It usually takes me longer to get the dog out of the truck than it does to hit it though.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Double Gun said:


> I sure wouldn't stop the truck for what I can see in the picture.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Which is a good thing for me... I've spent the last several years really focusing on covers that don't look good from the road. How many great spots are found by getting lost and stumbling upon random island of habitat bliss?

How many times have people pulled over after seeing birds just off the road in "marginal" cover. But yet if the birds weren't there, they would have kept driving by. 

People really like to talk about the number of birds per hour/day. But if you only get shots at a small percentage of birds and connect at "X" percent, it may be time to change up methidology.


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

FieldWalker said:


> Which is a good thing for me... I've spent the last several years really focusing on covers that don't look good from the road. How many great spots are found by getting lost and stumbling upon random island of habitat bliss?
> 
> How many times have people pulled over after seeing birds just off the road in "marginal" cover. But yet if the birds weren't there, they would have kept driving by.
> 
> People really like to talk about the number of birds per hour/day. But if you only get shots at a small percentage of birds and connect at "X" percent, it may be time to change up methidology.


Have at it grouse guru!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

Thick cover, thin cover, who gives a bleep...an EP can pin a grouse in a parking lot.


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Double Gun said:


> Have at it grouse guru!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


If you happen to see me walking through a mature birch forest, stop and say hello!


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

People really like to talk about the number of birds per hour/day. But if you only get shots at a small percentage of birds and connect at "X" percent, it may be time to change up methidology. 
__________________

I rather moved 25 birds in a spot then 3 more chances at dumb birds


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Mr. Botek said:


> Thick cover, thin cover, who gives a bleep...an EP can pin a grouse in a parking lot.


Yeah but the parking lot will be 10 miles away:fish2:


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> People really like to talk about the number of birds per hour/day. But if you only get shots at a small percentage of birds and connect at "X" percent, it may be time to change up methidology.
> __________________
> 
> I rather moved 25 birds in a spot then 3 more chances at dumb birds


That's why you get a pointer!

Boom!


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> That's why you get a pointer!
> 
> Boom!


Or a lab boom boom
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

N M Mechanical said:


> Yeah but the parking lot will be 10 miles away:fish2:


All you slackers run Astro's anyway. Throw your dog out, go have breakfast then find out what parking lot he's locked up in


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Mr. Botek said:


> All you slackers run Astro's anyway. Throw your dog out, go have breakfast then find out what parking lot he's locked up in


I only eat dinner got to watch my girlish figure
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> That's why you get a pointer!
> 
> Boom!


Plus since you are getting to that advanced age a lab would double as a "seeing eye dog" for you gramps!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Double Gun said:


> I sure wouldn't stop the truck for what I can see in the picture.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> Plus since you are getting to that advanced age a lab would double as a "seeing eye dog" for you gramps!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I need a golden. Labs are way too fast for me.


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

This thread makes me laugh. Pointer people are pretty funny. They have to have a sense of humor.

That's all I got.


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> I need a golden. Labs are way too fast for me.


 
That's why they have a handle on the vest


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> This thread makes me laugh. Pointer people are pretty funny. They have to have a sense of humor.
> 
> That's all I got.


Well we know you setter people are so sensitive just like your dogs


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

Dave Medema said:


> This thread makes me laugh. Pointer people are pretty funny. They have to have a sense of humor.
> 
> That's all I got.


When you've yelled yourself hoarse, your dog took off like he doesn't care if you're alive, and you're forced by the last decent moral fiber you have not to shoot him when he does return, humor is all us wretched pointer owners have left of our sanity!


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

This thread has gotten pretty funny. 
Let me make sure I Understand. 
You guys look at a picture of a freshly killed grouse, and declare that the cover would not be worth stopping at? 

That is interesting, maybe you guys could post up some pictures of cover that would be worth your time? I'd love to see what I'm missing.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Lucky Dog said:


> This thread has gotten pretty funny.
> Let me make sure I Understand.
> You guys look at a picture of a freshly killed grouse, and declare that the cover would not be worth stopping at?
> 
> That is interesting, maybe you guys could post up some pictures of cover that would be worth your time? I'd love to see what I'm missing.


This one died in.my drive way, my lot is full of the worst grouse cover ever.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

Lucky Dog said:


> This thread has gotten pretty funny.
> Let me make sure I Understand.
> You guys look at a picture of a freshly killed grouse, and declare that the cover would not be worth stopping at?
> 
> That is interesting, maybe you guys could post up some pictures of cover that would be worth your time? I'd love to see what I'm missing.


It certainly looks better than Fritz's driveway!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Double Gun said:


> It certainly looks better than Fritz's driveway!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


It's beautiful scotch pine, 50 year old aspen, beech, with an understory of dead leaves and limbs.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Birdsonthebrain (Nov 3, 2009)

Lucky Dog said:


> This thread has gotten pretty funny.
> Let me make sure I Understand.
> You guys look at a picture of a freshly killed grouse, and declare that the cover would not be worth stopping at?
> 
> That is interesting, maybe you guys could post up some pictures of cover that would be worth your time? I'd love to see what I'm missing.


****...that things not fresh..... he's been carrying that thing around for years. Found it road killed.


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> It's beautiful scotch pine, 50 year old aspen, beech, with an understory of dead leaves and limbs.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I take it back, the driveway looks like the better choice.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Birdsonthebrain said:


> ****...that things not fresh..... he's been carrying that thing around for years. Found it road killed.


Hey he learned something from that walk then just need 4 more and you can take pictures of limits for years
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grouseman2 (Dec 28, 2001)

Jay Johnson said:


> I'm not much of a cover hopper.
> 
> A typical hunt for me is to park the car. Turn the dogs loose and using the google map of the covert printed on photo paper in my pocket make a 3-5 hour loop staying as much as possible in the better cover within the covert.
> 
> We will find grouse in cover like that in the photo but just not in great enough numbers to spend time hunting it over something more productive. But like you say, when you do find a bird there, it makes for nice shooting.


Jay - How many acres do you figure the covert is and what percentage of the covert is considered better cover? 

Mike


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## Dave Medema (Jan 18, 2005)

BIGSP said:


> Well we know you setter people are so sensitive just like your dogs


Hey now, be nice. Kona almost read that.


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## longhaulpointer (Aug 14, 2007)

I've got 2 pointers and a Gsp. My older pointer is 12 now and a miller dog. She out lived my other GSP by 4 years and counting. She also coverd 10 times as much ground or more when hunting than any other dog in the field. My other Pointer is an Elhew dog that i specifically got for grouse. While my Miller pointer didn't suit most hunters, I'm young and shes steady to wing and shot so i don't care if shes a mile away, i hunt in ohio and grouse are few and far between, and its mountain hilly around our parts. The more she runs the less i have to. I would also add that as impartial as i am, no other dogs compare in a field to a good pointer. If you want the fastest working hardest hunting best looking dog get a pointer. If you want a casual walk with a slow working dog get something else. 

I'll also add that whether or not you want to believe it, a lot of setters and GSP's are being breed to pointers to "add a little hunt" to the lines to help them in field trials.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

longhaulpointer said:


> I'll also add that whether or not you want to believe it, a lot of setters and GSP's are being breed to pointers to "add a little hunt" to the lines to help them in field trials.


Or some of the pointer are breeding to setters. 

The problem is the first breeding for a dropper, no matter who the sire and dam are, All the pups will come out as Pointers. Only in later generations will you see setter pups. For this reason alone it may be more appealing to breed a Pointer Dropper litter.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

longhaulpointer said:


> I've got 2 pointers and a Gsp. My older pointer is 12 now and a miller dog. She out lived my other GSP by 4 years and counting. She also coverd 10 times as much ground or more when hunting than any other dog in the field. My other Pointer is an Elhew dog that i specifically got for grouse. While my Miller pointer didn't suit most hunters, I'm young and shes steady to wing and shot so i don't care if shes a mile away, i hunt in ohio and grouse are few and far between, and its mountain hilly around our parts. The more she runs the less i have to. I would also add that as impartial as i am, no other dogs compare in a field to a good pointer. If you want the fastest working hardest hunting best looking dog get a pointer. If you want a casual walk with a slow working dog get something else.
> 
> I'll also add that whether or not you want to believe it, a lot of setters and GSP's are being breed to pointers to "add a little hunt" to the lines to help them in field trials.


There are as many pointing dog style preferences as there are hunters, but I too prefer a speedier dog with a lot of point/bird handling ability and the intelligence to find birds under a variety of circumstances.

With regard to breeding pointers to other breeds in the trial world, I think it's become much less common over the last 10-15 years due to the required DNA testing of the champions (at least in AF trials).


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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

This seems to be the thread for pointer health info. How does cancer manifest itself in pointers? What would a person notice, and does the vet perform a simple test to determine if something is cancer or not?


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

longhaulpointer said:


> . . .I'll also add that whether or not you want to believe it, a lot of setters . . . are being breed to pointers to "add a little hunt" to the lines to help them in field trials.


When you say a lot, how many does that encompass and which setter lines are you talking about?


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> Many people say RockAcre Blackhawk had some setter in him. I know a guy who worked with Blackhawk and he said he had the longest hair he's ever seen on a pointer.


I never saw RAB, but haven't noticed long hair in the few offspring that I've seen.
Brent, I think that you and I both saw our first tri-color pointer last year though--the Italian gentleman at the Spring Amateur with the derby. If I remember correctly, the dog had a chestnut cheek patch like Strut.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> I never saw RAB, but haven't noticed long hair in the few offspring that I've seen.
> Brent, I think that you and I both saw our first tri-color pointer last year though--the Italian gentleman at the Spring Amateur with the derby. If I remember correctly, the dog had a chestnut cheek patch like Strut.


That's right. I believe that was a miller dog.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

The Kennel Club of Britain, the oldest such organization in the world, acknowledges tri color as an acceptable trait in Pointers I believe. The AKC does not discuss it at all.

They also come in solid liver, black, or orange and some are even shown with those paint jobs and many are definitely hunted abroad. They aren't lab or Vizsla crosses.

Droppers sound like a great idea. But at point do you no longer have a Pointer or setter and really something that should be called "American Pointer" or some such thing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> That's right. I believe that was a miller dog.


I think you're right Brent.



WestCoastHunter said:


> The Kennel Club of Britain, the oldest such organization in the world, acknowledges tri color as an acceptable trait in Pointers I believe. The AKC does not discuss it at all.
> 
> They also come in solid liver, black, or orange and some are even shown with those paint jobs and many are definitely hunted abroad. They aren't lab or Vizsla crosses.
> 
> ...


Jarl, I would be for it just to introduce different (and hopefully favorable) genes but basically maintain the breeds. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the pointer genes dominant? That is, if you breed a dropper to a dropper then breed the pups of those droppers to other droppers, over time, don't you wind-up with a pointer again?


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