# Mentored Youth Hunting Program Workgroup - Very important! Please read!



## trappergirl7 (Oct 4, 2008)

Hey, everyone!

I am a member of the Natural Resources Commissions Mentored Youth Hunting Program Workgroup. This workgroup's purpose is to develop a Youth Mentoring Program for children under the age of 10 that would like to hunt in Michigan; the creation of this program was approved by Governor Snyder a few months ago. As a member of this workgroup, I am interested in receiving your opinions and feedback on a number of questions our workgroup is currently considering. Please take a few moments to answer the questions posed by the survey at this link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/VMY6KGT. Please do so by September 15th. Your feedback will be extremely valuable to us as we develop this program. 

If you have any questions/comments/concerns, feel free to post them in this thread, or email me. My email is [email protected]. Also, make sure to pass on the link to anyone you know that would be interested in completing the survey. I've already taken it, and it doesn't take much time: about 10 minutes, tops. Like I said, your feedback is incredibly valuable and it would help our workgroup immensely in the development of this program.

Thank you so much for your time! I really appreciate it.

Emily Caretti


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## dpweurding (Nov 9, 2009)

Emily,

First off, thank you for volunteering your time for this committee. Younger adults are often pulled so many different directions that they can easily lose sight of the big picture, and as a father of a young girl it is refreshing to see someone like yourself lending a big hand for future generations of hunters. 
I suppose my biggest push would be to ensure that these mentored youth get a solid foundation of firearm safety and the cardinal rules thereof before they take the field. It is no use hurrying a young person into the field if they dont put their best foot forward. I have seen adults practice poor firearm safety enough that kids must have a foundation to build on. Most likely it will make hunting safer and more enjoyable for everyone. I have no doubts about youth younger than 10 being able to hunt game, it is the trips to and from the field, gun cleaning, etc. that should remain a focus as well. I am not sure if this could be accomplished with the current hunter safety course or if a course geared towards younger hunters would be in order. I seems like forever ago since I took the course, so I really do not know. 
Another talking point would be to allow youth younger than 12 to deer, bear and elk hunt on public land. I am not sure if this is already in the works with the hunting age changes or not. It seems as though the only start some young hunters might get is on public land, and it seems with this limitation we are really hurting the main premise of this legislation. This of course would fall in line with the lines about a "proper guardian within immediate contact".
In addition to these maybe have some database where volunteers could sign up to offer their services to aspiring young hunters that have no one else to show them the ropes. Again, I am unsure if there is such a thing, but it seems like a great idea in theory. If we truly want to recruit new hunters, trappers, and fishers, this would branch out to a whole new dimension.
I hope some of these ideas help, and once again thank you for lending a hand to fight for something this state has needed for a while.

Derek


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## Big Reds (Oct 14, 2007)

I have mulled this over and over in my head and really tried to view this from every possible angle, but cannot find one single positive side to this idea. 
From an overall safety standpoint, it is a nightmare. Putting a high powered lethal weapon in a very young child's hands is absurd, ok I'll say it.... stupid. More accidents and fatalities will occur and it's a fact. Most of the other states that already have enacted this have seen hunting related accidents and fatalities increase. Most children cannot even lift a gun at that age. Not to mention, it may actually harm the child physically and emotionally. The ramifications are extraordinary. Imagine little Billy or little Suzy wounding an animal just to see it hobble off or flopping all over the place until it slowly dies? Or worse yet, God forbid, accidently shoot their mentor? They simple are not ready for this responsibility either mentally or physically plain and simple. This may have the complete opposite effect and make our youth shy away from hunting all together.

Listen. The state of MI is looking for additional income and is willing to put people's safety and well being last and revenue first.

Before I get jumped on, I do believe it is a good idea to take our youth afield (without a firearm) to allow them to participate in one of the best teaching tools out there. Nature. It teaches them respect, stewardship, responsibility and an appreciation for the life they have. I am speaking from my own experience and had 4 children of my own.
Let's just allow the youth to do this responsibly and SAFELY at an appropriate age. Let our kids be kids first before we start shoving undue adult responsibility towards them.
IMO, this is a really, really bad idea from the start.

I do appreciate your willingness Emily.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I personally don't see a huge problem with safety. Of course being a safety minded person the hunt I would take such a young person would kinda go like this:
We drive to our hunting spot, I grab the gun and we go to our spot. After we get to our spot, I load the gun and hand it to the youth. If we then move, I would then unload the gun and carry it until we reach our new hunting destination. After quite a few outings I may allow the youth to carry the gun, provided that they can demostrate the ability to do so safely. I primarily hunt this way for small game, rarely carrying a loaded weapon.

I doubt that elk an/or need to be considered, it can be a once in a lifetime drawing and I think it better to do when you have a few more years of hunting experience, plus the caliber gun required would be a limiting factor to all but a minute few.

Deer could be done with a crossbow, .243, 20 guage or a .410 and I don't think that'll be too traumatizing. Small game and a .22 or a .410 are a no-brainer in my opinion.

I can see this being a positive thing, provided that the mentor is in immediate contact with the youth (arms reach) and they are a conciencous, safety minded person. 

Good work Emily


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## Mister ED (Apr 3, 2006)

Thanks Emily, and it is great that they have appointed people form various groups and age groups to help with this.

I am in the middle of Freepop's and Reds position. Certianly it can be safe ... take Freepop's example (and I would think most that come around here). However, just like always, it is that other <5% of parents/mentors that are real boneheads and should not be hunting themselves, let alone mentoring someone. Said 'bonehead' will, eventually, drop the kid off and walk/sit 50 yrds away. Why?? Because that way they both have a chance at one. Point is, there needs to be tough & well known punishment for any mentor not within X number of feet (like 5) from the youth. And no, cell phone, texts, walkie talkies, or whaterver other eltronic devices do not substitute for the mentor being directly with the youth.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

A little context of my experience. I have taken many youths on the early season. Most of them, I don't have a lot of time with so we first go to the range for target pratice. In a few minutes I can quickly learn how they will handle a firearm and how we should handle it in the field. Some I let carry the gun and some I don't. Even if they carry the gun, it is unloaded and the shells are in my pocket until we reach our hunting spot. Then we load the gun. If we move, we unload the gun prior to doing so and then reload once at our new location. I sit within arms reach of them and there is virtually no way I can end up on the wrong side of the barrel.
All of the hunts have been a great experience.


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## Rustyaxecamp (Mar 1, 2005)

Done.

I am also on the fence on several of the issues.

Keep up the good work Emily ! It is appreciated !!


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## Mister ED (Apr 3, 2006)

FREEPOP said:


> A little context of my experience. I have taken many youths on the early season. Most of them, I don't have a lot of time with so we first go to the range for target pratice. In a few minutes I can quickly learn how they will handle a firearm and how we should handle it in the field. Some I let carry the gun and some I don't. Even if they carry the gun, it is unloaded and the shells are in my pocket until we reach our hunting spot. Then we load the gun. If we move, we unload the gun prior to doing so and then reload once at our new location. I sit within arms reach of them and there is virtually no way I can end up on the wrong side of the barrel.
> All of the hunts have been a great experience.


I'm not really disagreeing with you John ... as I said ... what you presented in you first post is the way it should be. And face it, most of us here would handle this very similar to you ... in fact I think 95% of the sportsman would be very similar and responsible. It is the other 5% of adults that I'm worried about ... those that shouldn't be out there to begin with ... scares me to think that they are mentoring a very young person.

I also understand that many states have similar programs and for the most part they work. However, it seems every year we hear about a couple of incidences from those states (the ones I remember are typically turkey hunting) of a young hunter accidentilly shooting another. Granted, the 'mentor' left them alone and was not with the child when they pulled the trigger. A couple incidences the mentor was the one that was shot (IMHO the 'mentor' probably deserved it ... but the child then has to live with that).

Like I stated earlier ... I am on the fence. I think this could be very benificial program ... getting kids in the out doors, keepinging them off the video games, etc. But to those involved in an incident ... the lasting effects could be life wrecking, both physically and emotionally. I think this program would also need *stiff & severe penalties* for leaving that child 'unattended'.


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## trappergirl7 (Oct 4, 2008)

Thank you so much for your responses, guys! I really appreciate it.

I can totally see where all of you are coming from, to an extent. Obviously, I think that the program is a great idea, otherwise I wouldn't be on the committee. I'm sure that there is at least a little bias, considering I'm 16, but I still feel that due to how I was raised and the fact that I am young, I can provide some valuable input. 

I want you all to know that safety is a key factor that we are thinking about while we develop this program. Like I said, you know who my dad is and how I was raised, so ethics, safety, and responsibility are extremely important to me, as well. When I first started going out in the woods (hunting, I mean), my dad taught me how to hunt in a way similar to the way Jon described. I spent a lot of time at the shooting bench, then I went out without a gun and sat with him while he hunted (that was when he shot his 8-point; of course! ), and then the next year I got to carry a gun, but I sat right next to my dad in a two-person blind, and then finally the year after, I could sit in my own stand, but we were within visual/verbal contact. Plus, when I'm out in the woods, I (as well as the rest of you) don't want to have to worry about getting shot by some rogue kid that doesn't know what they're doing. In our first meeting, we already jumped into the safety aspect, and started discussing various options, such as distance allotted between the mentor/mentee, or the possibility of only allowing one weapon per mentor/mentee pair, and other options of that sort. I can guarantee that this will not be the end of discussion about safety, and I can promise that it is something that each member of the workgroup is concerned about. 

Derek, I would like to talk about your idea of a hunter's ed-esque program for a minute. I'm probably biased because I was involved in the creation of Michigan's trapper ed program, but either way, I'm a huge proponent of not necessarily formal classes, but giving people (especially youth) education prior to partaking in our sports, especially due to the nature of them and what each sport entails. The problem with requiring a youth to take hunter's ed prior to participating in the mentoring program is that young kids either 1. won't be able to sit through the class (we all know what kind of attention spans young kids have) or 2. won't be able to understand the class. There is a hunter's ed instructor in our workgroup, and he informed us that the program was directed towards ages 10 and up. Since the mentoring program opens up hunting to children under age 10, this obviously wouldn't work. This is mainly why the children are going to be hunting with a mentor, though. The mentor's responsibility is to be the "knowledgeable one" of the pair, and to be a teacher to the child that they are taking into the woods. A retaliating point, that most of you mentioned, is that not all adults are fit to be in the woods, let alone teach a kid how to hunt. You also have to consider, though, that every group has its bad eggs, and we can't ruin opportunities like this for everyone because of that 5% of people that, no matter what, simply will not follow the rules or just use some common sense. So, although there are those people that are not going to use their brains, we have to place a certain amount of faith in the capability and qualification of the mentor. But, like you guys said, chances are, 95% of the guys out there are going to be good, responsible mentors.

We have also discussed regulation changes regarding what game the youth under 10 will be able to hunt (possibly eliminating big game, etc.). 

I really like that idea of having like a sign up sheet for volunteer mentors; I had never considered that. I will definitely propose that idea to the group.

I'm going to jump back to safety for a minute. Big Reds (I'm sorry, I'm not sure of who's handle that is) pointed out that hunting accidents/injuries/fatalities will increase. I'm willing to bet a fair amount of money that you are right. But doesn't that make sense? The more people you put into the woods, the more injuries there are bound to be. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the ratio of hunters involved in accidents to total hunters will increase; it may stay the same, or even decrease. At our next meeting, we will be talking about mentoring programs in other states and hunting related accidents in these states, so we can look at this data and use it to eliminate as many problems as we can. 

I hope this helped answer some questions, alleviate some concerns, and gave you a little more information about what our workgroup is doing. If you have more questions/comments/concerns, keep them coming! I really appreciate your guys' feedback and that you are so passionate about this program. I think it could be a really good thing for the youth of Michigan, and I'm glad that you guys are helping me out!

Emily


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## toepincher (Oct 3, 2010)

Unfortunately kids who grow up hunting and around hunting are the minority. We can easily be biased because of our lifestyles and ethics. Hunter safety classes while well intended are not nearly in depth enough. My son doesn't remember learning about safety or the effects of pulling a trigger. He doesn't remember learning to shoot. In my house guns are tools just like forks and knives or shovels and rakes. He doesn't remember learning to use a fork either. But there are too many kids and parents out there who have never seen what a deer looks like after you have pulled the trigger and put a hole in it. We would have to assume that just because someone is over a certain age that they are qualified to mentor a youth. That can be deadly. This really isn't about the kids, it's more about the mentors. 
Proper firearm safety takes a long time with qualified teachers. If we aren't careful we will have too many idiots out there teaching their kids to be idiots too. 
However Emily, kudos for being involved. I think its great that the next generation of outdoors enthusiasts is being represented by you. Just remember not all kids have been raised as well as you with the great teachers you have had.


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## SNAREMAN (Dec 10, 2006)

Emily,first congrats and thank you for taking part in the workgroup  I am all for this!!! Really wish it could have been done sooner as my step-son does not turn 10 untill late dec. so he will have to spend most of the season on the sidelines again :sad: I would like to see this kept simple,no need to micro-manage/over-complicate (which the DNR/NRC likes to do imo)Here's what I would like to see (and said on the survey)1:Mentor must be in immediate control of youth (ie...arms length)2:Mentor must be at least 21yrs of age,and if born before 1960,must have passed a hunter safety class.3:Mentor is limited to no more than 2 youth hunters at a time.Thats it,all game/methods open to "adults" open to youths also.Again,thank you for being involved with this!!!


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