# Meet N Greet - Against Gear Restrictions



## Abel

Whit/Don, I'm heading to OH for the holidays, work have e-mail access thru my work. Shoot me a PM about things offline, or I can shoot ya my yahoo account.


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## Grass Shrimp

Although I would probably find someone to carpool with ( hint hint Mr.sinker man), I would vote for baldwin as it is my backyard so to speak. The Na-tah-ka bar and restaurant which is about three miles south of baldwin and two miles west on 76th street ( across from the golf coarse) is big enough. Or they have a Na-tah-ka in Irons also that should be big enough. It all depends on numbers. Most bars will do whatever ( short of building an addition) to accomodate a group during the winter in Baldwin


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## thousandcasts

Grass Shrimp said:


> Although I would probably find someone to carpool with ( hint hint Mr.sinker man), I would vote for baldwin as it is my backyard so to speak. The Na-tah-ka bar and restaurant which is about three miles south of baldwin and two miles west on 76th street ( across from the golf coarse) is big enough. Or they have a Na-tah-ka in Irons also that should be big enough. It all depends on numbers. Most bars will do whatever ( short of building an addition) to accomodate a group during the winter in Baldwin


That Na-ta-ta-tee-tee-tah in Irons--is that the place with all the dollar bills on the ceiling? If so and you meet there, not only can you discuss fisheries, but you can also play a fun and enjoyable game! 

It's called--How Many Dollar Bills Can You Find That Have "Hutch *heart* (insert woman's name here)" Written On Them? 

Here's your scoring system: 

If it's a $1 bill, then the whole parking lot "relations" thing was pretty much a done deal.

If it's a $5 bill, then it was 50/50--could've went one way or the other.

If it's a $10 bill then that was a "holy crap, I better do something drastic to impress this woman--otherwise it's gonna be long night back at the camper!" 

You will not find any $20 bills--I'd rather punt and live to fight another day than go to those kinds of extremes.


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## FISHMANMARK

Shouldn't the meeting be in Baldwin... Isn't that what started this whole thing? Every guy opposed to gear restrictions will never be able to fish the PM again and the excuses range from... the roads might be bad, to it's to far to drive, to I don't have gas money. 


Ya can't make this **** up!:lol:


Flyfisher... lets hook up and go fishing. I know some secret spots.:16suspect


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## fishinDon

thousandcasts said:


> That Na-ta-ta-tee-tee-tah in Irons--is that the place with all the dollar bills on the ceiling? If so and you meet there, not only can you discuss fisheries, but you can also play a fun and enjoyable game!
> 
> It's called--How Many Dollar Bills Can You Find That Have "Hutch *heart* (insert woman's name here)" Written On Them?
> 
> Here's your scoring system:
> 
> If it's a $1 bill, then the whole parking lot "relations" thing was pretty much a done deal.
> 
> If it's a $5 bill, then it was 50/50--could've went one way or the other.
> 
> If it's a $10 bill then that was a "holy crap, I better do something drastic to impress this woman--otherwise it's gonna be long night back at the camper!"
> 
> You will not find any $20 bills--I'd rather punt and live to fight another day than go to those kinds of extremes.


Hutch to English translation: "I'll be there."


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## fishinDon

People who are in or mostly in with preferred locale:

fishinDon -- NW or Baldwin
Whit1 -- NW (Cadillac)
Abel -- NW or Baldwin
flyFisher -- Baldwin
Dann09 -- NW
StiffNeckRob -- ??
Boardman Brookies -- NW
bigfisherman -- NW (Cadillac)
diztortion -- GR or "middle"
Trout King -- Baldwin
Grass Shrimp -- Baldwin
ThousandCasts -- I'm putting you in for wherever. 
FishManMark - Baldwin


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## Abel

Should say...
Thousandcasts....anybar he's allowed in, should be a short list.


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## Whit1

If it's going to be Baldwin then someplace other than the Na-Tah-Ka near Irons........it isn't in Irons......would be better.

Cadillac would be more central to those guys coming from the eastern part of the state. This is not just about the PM, but rather gear regs on all trout streams both those already in place and those that lay in the eyes of the those who would restrict others from fishing them based on........take your pick: Science (which can be refuted), Ethics, Elitism, Greed, Jealousy, Misinformation, A desire to lessen competition, Stupidity, Others!

This just isn't about trout anglers from West Michigan, but rather the entire state. Later on there will be a need.........I hope.......for similar meetings in more urban areas, but for starters we can get the ball rolling with this meeting in Jan.


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## toto

I'm sure this meeting is what this will be all about, but I gotta ask, what tact are you guys thinking of taking. Perhaps it would be wise for folks to put in there ideas here, before hand, and then the others can do some research as to why, or why not that tact will or won't work.

For example, will you take the legal issue, will you take the scientific angle, and also, you will need to figure out what to do with your ideas once they get coordinated.

I obviously can't be there, but you already know where I would go with this, but there may be other ideas that would work just as well.


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## GVDocHoliday

Pompei's in Baldwin has a reception hall area. It's fairly nice for the area and I don't think they fill it much...might be willing to barter. Not to mention I'm sure most of Baldwin is anti-gear restriction...may be able to get it for nothing.


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## Ranger Ray

Saturday is out for me.


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## salmo'dog

count me in at either location. I can take three others with me from the tri cities area, or shoot over to us131 and pick up anyone at the hwy 46 and 131 intersection to carpool with anyone from the lansing or GR areas.


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## Abel

I'm good with jsut about anywhere, baldwin, Cady, Interlochen.


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## Flyfisher

fishinDon said:


> People who are in or mostly in with preferred locale:
> 
> fishinDon -- NW or Baldwin
> Whit1 -- NW (Cadillac)
> Abel -- NW or Baldwin
> flyFisher -- Baldwin
> Dann09 -- NW
> StiffNeckRob -- ??
> Boardman Brookies -- NW
> bigfisherman -- NW (Cadillac)
> diztortion -- GR or "middle"
> Trout King -- Baldwin
> Grass Shrimp -- Baldwin
> ThousandCasts -- I'm putting you in for wherever.
> FishManMark - Baldwin


My living room would be my first choice but Grand Rapids is a close second. Baldwin make it more convenient for the folks from the south. I wouldn't be offended with Big Rapids, either.


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## StiffNeckRob

I can't do after the holidays as I'll be playing in the snow in the UP. I'm 98% sure I can make the 15th (might have a work commitment).

I think Cadillac would be the best option for all to travel to, but I'll support whatever. I can also help find a location where ever it might be. There are far more options in Cadillac or Big Rapids then Baldwin.

As with the clean up, I have room for 3 more in the car and it won't cost you a cent to go wherever. I'm in the Lowell area and am sure we could find a place to meet.


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## Chromedoggy

Pere Marquette Lodge has a room

If it is in GR I will be there and I will get word out to the Insane Spawn Posse.


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## cadillacjethro

If you guys decide on Cadillac, I'll be there.


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## Up-Stream

If I could get a ride with someone from T.C. I'm in. If someone willing could pm me I'd appreciate it. Have gas $ but no wheels.


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## Abel

U can roll w me bro.


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## Up-Stream

Good deal. Im in then. Shoot me a pm with some contact info. If you have some time before the 15th we could meet up and sore mouth some trout.


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## Whit1

toto said:


> I don't know if anyone has thought about this, but this whole thing falls under that credo, "unintended consequences". These guys have now found a voice, they've never heard before. If nothing comes of this, they'll at least know we are watching, and will have a voice in the future, and thats a good thing. It'll be interesting to see just what everyone comes up with, frankly I'm excited about the prospects of all this. These other groups have, for years, had no one to argue, or give them resistance, well they do now.


Actually that post above (not yours Bill, but that other one) has stirred the fire in me to a higher level. That sort of mindset along with those "slob bait fishermen" hogwash comments demonstrate that "we're better than you" kinds of comments that are all to frequent and have been for many years.

You know, not being a mod in MS anymore has given me more freedom to express..........:lol:

Yes, all we need to do here in MI (and other states) what with our declining numbers of anglers and hunters is to add more restrictions. For those of you who support that garbage and the organizations that do.........nice move guys, gals, and groups.....


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## toto

Now that you aren't a mod, we can start accepting you, but first, you have to get a strike. You ain't in until you do.


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## thousandcasts

Whit1 said:


> You know, not being a mod in MS anymore has given me more freedom to express..........:lol:


Oooh, oooh---does that mean I now get more freedom to express? :evilsmile


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## REG

Hey Don,

There are alot of contingencies for me, not the least of which is the weather. A couple of thoughts here is that if guys would like to combine some fishing in with the meeting, then perhaps either a morning or dinner meeting would work out best. Usually, for me anyways, during the winter, the best bite is in the afternoon.


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## Splitshot

Dam 4 drift,

I think you have explained the TU philosophy in a way many of us believe to be true. We are not surprised but it may surprise you that many of us feel the same way about fishing as you do. The feeling we have in our souls is just as strong and deep as any TU member has but the only difference is our convictions are based on a tangible reality.

We both agree on the reasonable challenge of trout fishing but not a religious one. We do fish for food as well as sport and the reason is, we feel we are a part of the food chain and not top of the food chain looking down.

The only reason fly fishing exists is because some bait fishermen found they could not catch rising trout on conventional gear (bait) so they developed the use of feathers. In that regard, fly fishermen and women owe us (bait fishermen) a debt of gratitude. Actually we dont want any gratitude from you but it seems reasonable that you would show us a little respect instead of contempt.

Keeping trout for the table is a time honored tradition and one even hallowed icons like Lee Wulff participated in. If you know your history, you are aware of a world renowned fly fisherman named A. J. McClane. We had a long conservation about trout fishing almost 40 years over dinner in San Diego and during a fishing trip together the next day discussed the virtues of fishing and even planned a fishing trip on the Little Manistee that unfortunately never happened but I dont think it would have even been considered if he thought the way you do. Did you know A. J. was responsible for popularizing spin fishing in the forties and fifties. He was much more than just a fly fisherman.

A. J. McClane was also a sophisticated gourmet and chef. For several years he wrote about fish and fish cookery for Esquire and was a seafood consultant to restaurants, hotels and airlines. He was the author of the best-selling cookbook, "The Encyclopedia of Fish Cookery," published in 1977. His last book, "A Taste of the Wild, a Compendium of Modern American Game Cookery," was published by Dutton in 1991, the year of his death. Do you think any of those fish recipes included wild trout?

Most of us are very concerned about any abuse of our trout fishery. We know the only reason our fishery has continued to get better and better over the years is because of the professional fish biologist within our DNR have been managing our rivers and lakes as much as possible based on good science.

We agree with our biologist in that they decide how many trout we can kill for the table and still maintain a great fishery. Dam 4 drift, you can participate just for sport if you like, but many of us believe that since we are a part of nature it is perfectly okay if we enjoy sharing the excess nature provides with friends and family. By the way, we dont commune with nature, we participate.

We believe that we can manage our trout fishery for both fishermen and the trout. In your no kill waters according to Michigan fisheries biologist and Bryan Burroughs t 50% of the trout in our rivers die every year. The DNR biologist have concluded that gear restrictions and no kill regulations do nothing to protect our fisheries but are social rules meant to separate fishermen by class. As Roger Kerr a retired biologist from WI once stated, you cannot stockpile trout.

Many of us find your last statement a little insulting because it assumes that you respect your fellow anglers and we dont. I am a fly fisherman, no I take that back, I am a fisherman and I know many fly fishermen and women I respect. I personally find it very difficult to respect fishermen who support discriminatory gear restrictive rules and talk down to others who dont practice the same rituals as they do, especially when the rules they support are based on greed and exclude fishermen because they are somehow beneath them socially. Given a choice between emotion or science to manage our fisheries, we choose science.

In the end, it is our hope that you understand us. 

Merry Christmas


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## Whit1

Splitshot said:


> Dam 4 drift,
> 
> I think you have explained the TU philosophy in a way many of us believe to be true. We are not surprised but it may surprise you that many of us feel the same way about fishing as you do. The feeling we have in our souls is just as strong and deep as any TU member has but the only difference is our convictions are based on a tangible reality.
> 
> We both agree on the reasonable challenge of trout fishing but not a religious one. We do fish for food as well as sport and the reason is, we feel we are a part of the food chain and not top of the food chain looking down.
> 
> The only reason fly fishing exists is because some bait fishermen found they could not catch rising trout on conventional gear (bait) so they developed the use of feathers. In that regard, fly fishermen and women owe us (bait fishermen) a debt of gratitude. Actually we dont want any gratitude from you but it seems reasonable that you would show us a little respect instead of contempt.
> 
> Keeping trout for the table is a time honored tradition and one even hallowed icons like Lee Wulff participated in. If you know your history, you are aware of a world renowned fly fisherman named A. J. McClane. We had a long conservation about trout fishing almost 40 years over dinner in San Diego and during a fishing trip together the next day discussed the virtues of fishing and even planned a fishing trip on the Little Manistee that unfortunately never happened but I dont think it would have even been considered if he thought the way you do. Did you know A. J. was responsible for popularizing spin fishing in the forties and fifties. He was much more than just a fly fisherman.
> 
> A. J. McClane was also a sophisticated gourmet and chef. For several years he wrote about fish and fish cookery for Esquire and was a seafood consultant to restaurants, hotels and airlines. He was the author of the best-selling cookbook, "The Encyclopedia of Fish Cookery," published in 1977. His last book, "A Taste of the Wild, a Compendium of Modern American Game Cookery," was published by Dutton in 1991, the year of his death. Do you think any of those fish recipes included wild trout?
> 
> Most of us are very concerned about any abuse of our trout fishery. We know the only reason our fishery has continued to get better and better over the years is because of the professional fish biologist within our DNR have been managing our rivers and lakes as much as possible based on good science.
> 
> We agree with our biologist in that they decide how many trout we can kill for the table and still maintain a great fishery. Dam 4 drift, you can participate just for sport if you like, but many of us believe that since we are a part of nature it is perfectly okay if we enjoy sharing the excess nature provides with friends and family. By the way, we dont commune with nature, we participate.
> 
> We believe that we can manage our trout fishery for both fishermen and the trout. In your no kill waters according to Michigan fisheries biologist and Bryan Burroughs t 50% of the trout in our rivers die every year. The DNR biologist have concluded that gear restrictions and no kill regulations do nothing to protect our fisheries but are social rules meant to separate fishermen by class. As Roger Kerr a retired biologist from WI once stated, you cannot stockpile trout.
> 
> Many of us find your last statement a little insulting because it assumes that you respect your fellow anglers and we dont. I am a fly fisherman, no I take that back, I am a fisherman and I know many fly fishermen and women I respect. I personally find it very difficult to respect fishermen who support discriminatory gear restrictive rules and talk down to others who dont practice the same rituals as they do, especially when the rules they support are based on greed and exclude fishermen because they are somehow beneath them socially. Given a choice between emotion or science to manage our fisheries, we choose science.
> 
> In the end, it is our hope that you understand us.
> 
> Merry Christmas


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## Flyfisher

dam 4 drift said:


> Trout Unlimited Philosophy!
> The TU mission is to conserve, protect and restore North America's coldwater fisheries and their watersheds.
> We believe that trout and salmon fishing isnt just fishing for trout and salmon. Its fishing for sport rather than food, where the true enjoyment of the sport lies in the challenge, the lore, the battle of wits, not necessarily the full creel. Its the feeling of satisfaction that comes from limiting your kill instead of killing your limit. Its communing with nature where the chief reward is a refreshed body and a contented soul, where the license is a permit to use not abuse, to enjoy not destroy our coldwater fishery. Its subscribing to the proposition that whats good for trout and salmon is good for the fisherman and that managing trout and salmon for themselves rather than the fisherman is fundamental to the solution of our trout and salmon problems. Its appreciating our fishery resource, respecting fellow anglers and giving serious thought to tomorrow.


Does that mission say that we should all be flyfishing? Does it say that we can't use bait or artificial lures? Am I missing something?

Posting that here just shows how unfortunate the perception that a large percentage of TU members have towards anglers and sportsmen that utilize other methods. And how selfish is it to restrict access of other sportsmen under the presumption that their only intention is to "fill their creel".


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## fishinDon

Here's the run down as best as I can figure, totals at the bottom based on people's 1st choice...

fishinDon -- anyplace
Whit1 -- Cadillac
Abel -- anyplace
flyFisher -- GR or Baldwin
Dann09 -- NW
StiffNeckRob -- Cadillac
Boardman Brookies -- NW
bigfisherman -- Cadillac
diztortion -- GR or "middle" --probably won't attend
Trout King -- Baldwin
Grass Shrimp -- Baldwin
ThousandCasts -- I'm putting you in for wherever. 
FishManMark - Baldwin 
GVDocHoliday - Baldwin
salmo'dog - anyplace
Chromedoggy - GR
cadillacJethro - Cadillac - no surprise there 
Up-Stream - anyplace
bcjStuff - GR or Baldwin
Reg - no pref stated

Totals:
Cadillac = 4
Baldwin = 4
GR = 4-1(diztortion no attend) = 3 
NW (Interlochen) = 2
Anyplace = 5

Based on this we have a tie between Cadillac and Baldwin.

Cadillac has better services/access and early info indicates that we may be able to use the DNR center there for a meeting place. 

Baldwin has PM fishing and was at least two people's second choice (GR folks).

Of the anyplace/no pref votes, anyone care to break the tie? Or any new people that haven't replied with a pref yet...Splitshot? 

I'll leave it open for a few more hours before I have to go. I'll count votes from this point forward for either Cadillac or Baldwin to break the tie. 
Don


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## salmo'dog

fishinDon said:


> Here's the run down as best as I can figure, totals at the bottom based on people's 1st choice...
> 
> fishinDon -- anyplace
> Whit1 -- Cadillac
> Abel -- anyplace
> flyFisher -- GR or Baldwin
> Dann09 -- NW
> StiffNeckRob -- Cadillac
> Boardman Brookies -- NW
> bigfisherman -- Cadillac
> diztortion -- GR or "middle" --probably won't attend
> Trout King -- Baldwin
> Grass Shrimp -- Baldwin
> ThousandCasts -- I'm putting you in for wherever.
> FishManMark - Baldwin
> GVDocHoliday - Baldwin
> salmo'dog - anyplace
> Chromedoggy - GR
> cadillacJethro - Cadillac - no surprise there
> Up-Stream - anyplace
> bcjStuff - GR or Baldwin
> Reg - no pref stated
> 
> Totals:
> Cadillac = 4
> Baldwin = 4
> GR = 4-1(diztortion no attend) = 3
> NW (Interlochen) = 2
> Anyplace = 5
> 
> Based on this we have a tie between Cadillac and Baldwin.
> 
> Cadillac has better services/access and early info indicates that we may be able to use the DNR center there for a meeting place.
> 
> Baldwin has PM fishing and was at least two people's second choice (GR folks).
> 
> Of the anyplace/no pref votes, anyone care to break the tie? Or any new people that haven't replied with a pref yet...Splitshot?
> 
> I'll leave it open for a few more hours before I have to go. I'll count votes from this point forward for either Cadillac or Baldwin to break the tie.
> Don


I'll vote for Cadillac Don.


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## Boardman Brookies

salmo'dog said:


> I'll vote for Cadillac Don.


2 for Cadillac


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## thousandcasts

Baldwin


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## salmo'dog

thousandcasts said:


> Baldwin


You'll take Cadillac and LIKE IT !:lol:


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## thousandcasts

salmo'dog said:


> You'll take Cadillac and LIKE IT !:lol:


You've been known to take something else and LOVE it! :16suspect


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## fishinDon

By a 1 vote margin, the location is Cadillac. Date: Jan 15th, Saturday.

Location (possible DNR) and time (evening - 5pm-ish) to be confirmed.

Merry Christmas everyone,
Don


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## Whit1

Another problem with Baldwin that came to my mind today and it involves where in Badwin. If we had it in a bar with food keep in mind that we are in the middle of snowmobile season. Bars will be very busy, crowded noisy, and distractive. I think we'd have a difficult time finding a place and they would be busy.


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## Flyfisher

Assuming I can make it, I will probably want to walk in on either the Muskegon or below Tippy if anyone is interested. Maybe we can push the time back to 6:00pm? Only issue with the DNR building would be no food or drinks.


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## Whit1

Flyfisher said:


> Assu Only issue with the DNR building would be no food or drinks.


 
And a valid concern!


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## StiffNeckRob

I have connections to the resturant just down from the State Park.

I know the bowling alley has plenty of seats, food and drinks. 

I'd too like to see 5 or 6 start time or a 9 or 10am to allow for a few hours of fishing while I'm up north.


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## toto

Hutch, um, well, I'm not sure how to say this, but tell us, just exactly how did you find this website? I think the answer is gonna scare me.:evil:


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## thousandcasts

toto said:


> Hutch, um, well, I'm not sure how to say this, but tell us, just exactly how did you find this website? I think the answer is gonna scare me.:evil:


What website? I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## METTLEFISH

Hmmm is it possible to present flies on spinning gear ?.... YOU BET !...


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## REG

MERGANZER said:


> Very little water involved in the grand scheme of things. I have property in Baldwin are the fact is the storied flies only water brings in money. And I have news for you, those fish are not contained in that section they go upstream and down so hit those areas all you like with whatever gear you choose but that section briongs money from all over the world.
> 
> Ganzer


OK, so this is all about money, right? I appreciate the honesty. You say very little water, but then say nothing about the grab for much more water, but then only THE BEST water.

Lastly, re-examine how all of this got started in the first place. Ask yourself where was this whole situation last year and how did it get to this point.


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## Ranger Ray

MERGANZER said:


> Very little water involved in the grand scheme of things. I have property in Baldwin are the fact is the storied flies only water brings in money. And I have news for you, those fish are not contained in that section they go upstream and down so hit those areas all you like with whatever gear you choose but that section briongs money from all over the world.
> 
> Ganzer


Actually, of the blue ribbon water, 23% is special regs now. Only a little? 

Snagging brought money in from all over the world. Were you around in those days? Did you see all the hotels, campgrounds, restaurants and gas stations full of snaggers? The economic impact of eliminating that was beyond what we are talking now. So just because there is money involved doesn't mean it can't go away.


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## Splitshot

MERGANZER said:


> Very little water involved in the grand scheme of things. I have property in Baldwin are the fact is the storied flies only water brings in money. And I have news for you, those fish are not contained in that section they go upstream and down so hit those areas all you like with whatever gear you choose but that section briongs money from all over the world. Ganzer


Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based solely on their membership in a certain group or category. Discrimination is the actual behavior towards members of another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other.

It doesnt matter if it is one foot or one mile of 212 miles the definition fits. Your argument is very self-centered. As taxpayers we pay for the management of these rivers and when we purchase a fishing license and trout stamp, we are paying again. You try to justify it by saying the citizens of Michigan should give up our best waters to people who can afford to travel from other parts of the world simply because they might bolster the bottom line of a few businesses who are also exploiting these waters for profit. 

As citizens we should just back off and take second best, opps we just lost 2nd best, third best so the Orvis shop and BBT can make more money and guys like you can experience a quality fishing experience. 

Did you ever consider that there are lots of guys like me that once fished the flies only section of the PM and Little Manistee and were pushed down stream because of guys like you felt entitled to this public water. Now after years of fishing and learning this lesser water you state in a cavalier and condescending way that you have no regard to forcing us down river again to even lesser water. Nice that you can have a quality experience while the vast majority of us are crowded into the water that is left.

When I read your post, you seem to feel offended that we even have the audacity to speak out against this breech of the public trust by the DNR. Shame on us!


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## earl

just wow. Excellent Post.


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## hjbigrapids

There are some big money people who have places in the "fly's only" section of the PM. Their interest is to keep it that way.....

When you have the money, politicians and appointed state workers have a tendency to listen to suggestions and out-right demands made upon them.

This post and the other post about gear restrictions are great outlets for people to vent, but it still comes back to "who has the money????"......

So it does not matter if you have fished for 50 years or more, or have studied all the written materials. If you don't have the money it just ain't going to go your way.

Sorry, it is a simple truth......... 







http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=3478849​

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Baldwin Businesses To Go "...belly up" - Page 11 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358570&page=11#ixzz1A8iLHWzo​


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## MERGANZER

Splitshot said:


> Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based solely on their membership in a certain group or category. Discrimination is the actual behavior towards members of another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other.
> 
> It doesnt matter if it is one foot or one mile of 212 miles the definition fits. Your argument is very self-centered. As taxpayers we pay for the management of these rivers and when we purchase a fishing license and trout stamp, we are paying again. You try to justify it by saying the citizens of Michigan should give up our best waters to people who can afford to travel from other parts of the world simply because they might bolster the bottom line of a few businesses who are also exploiting these waters for profit.
> 
> As citizens we should just back off and take second best, opps we just lost 2nd best, third best so the Orvis shop and BBT can make more money and guys like you can experience a quality fishing experience.
> 
> Did you ever consider that there are lots of guys like me that once fished the flies only section of the PM and Little Manistee and were pushed down stream because of guys like you felt entitled to this public water. Now after years of fishing and learning this lesser water you state in a cavalier and condescending way that you have no regard to forcing us down river again to even lesser water. Nice that you can have a quality experience while the vast majority of us are crowded into the water that is left.
> 
> When I read your post, you seem to feel offended that we even have the audacity to speak out against this breech of the public trust by the DNR. Shame on us!


 
Before you say "people like you" and other statements without knowing me you may want to back off a bit. I have property in the Baldwin area, I have fished the flies only section 2 times in my entire life. I dont need to fish it for a quality experience I fish a lot of other areas that are just as good or better in my experience. I rarely fly fish at all in fact. The flies only section is jam packed with fishermen and to me thats not what I want to face when I go fishing so I never go there. Why do you attack Orvis or BBT???? They are businesses and they are not the only ones who benefit from the flies only waters there, the whole comunity does. Different rivers have different size limits and different gear restrictions etc. Same as all game laws. Is is discrimination to say that on October first you have to use archery equipment for deer and you have to leave the firearm at home????? Nope its game laws and some of those laws are to protect game from some people who think they need to creel every fish they bring to hand. Sound familiar?

Ganzer


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## Whit1

MERGANZER said:


> Before you say "people like you" and other statements without knowing me you may want to back off a bit. I have property in the Baldwin area, I have fished the flies only section 2 times in my entire life.


Whether you fish the Flies Only section isn't the point. It's the mindset that you've demonstrated is what matters in this case. Your, and others like you, concept of the situation only enables it to continue and expand.




MERGANZER said:


> I dont need to fish it for a quality experience I fish a lot of other areas that are *just as good or better in my experience. *I rarely fly fish at all in fact.


This is very telling and I agree with what you're saying. Indeed there are areas that are at least as good as the Flies Only section and those will continue to draw anglers. It is not the actuality of what Flies Only sections of trout streams that makes the fishing. This has been amply demonstrated many times and has been supported by our MDNR's fishery biologists. Flies Only or not the PM is going to be a fine trout stream and anglers recognize that fact and will continue to fish it.

The Yellowstone, Madison, Gallatin, and other Montana rivers continue to draw anglers and none of them are Flies Only streams. Of course they are quite different in size and bottom topography than the PM, Au Sable, etc., but the bottom line is they are excellent fisheries without being Flies Only and so will the PM and other streams in Michigan.


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## TC-fisherman

Whit1 said:


> The Yellowstone, Madison, Gallatin, and other Montana rivers continue to draw anglers and none of them are Flies Only streams.


Yellowstone & Madison have artificial only, flies only, and catch and release sections.


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## Whit1

TC-fisherman said:


> Yellowstone & Madison have artificial only, flies only, and catch and release sections.


I'm speaking of the streams as they flow through Montana which is the vast majority of their miles. Three years ago I contacted Montana's fish and game department and asked them about any such regs and they told me there were none.

If you are speaking of their flow through Yellowstone National Park, which, for the most part, is in Wyoming, then you are correct I believe. However that, as mentioned above, is a small portion of their trout stream miles.


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## fishinDon

Thanks for the hi jack! 

Um, back on track...

If you plan to attend the meet n greet next Saturday and I don't already have your email address, please PM it to me. I want to rough out a few things before we meet up!

Thanks!
Don


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## TC-fisherman

upper Madison from the quake lake almost to Ennis is C&R, artifical only. That whole stretch is in Montana.

There's an abundance of artificial and C&R only water in montana 
http://fwp.mt.gov/fishing/regulations/

there all listed under exceptions to standard regulations.


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## REG

TC-fisherman said:


> upper Madison from the quake lake almost to Ennis is C&R, artifical only. That whole stretch is in Montana.
> 
> There's an abundance of artificial and C&R only water in montana
> http://fwp.mt.gov/fishing/regulations/
> 
> there all listed under exceptions to standard regulations.


But....No Flys Only

You mentioned the Yellowstone, but in the state of MT, it is open to all techniques.

Interesting there also is an abundance of float outfitting restrictions on many of their rivers. Float Outfitting=Guides????


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## Splitshot

MERGANZER said:


> Before you say "people like you" and other statements without knowing me you may want to back off a bit. I have property in the Baldwin area, I have fished the flies only section 2 times in my entire life. I dont need to fish it for a quality experience I fish a lot of other areas that are just as good or better in my experience. I rarely fly fish at all in fact. The flies only section is jam packed with fishermen and to me thats not what I want to face when I go fishing so I never go there. Why do you attack Orvis or BBT???? They are businesses and they are not the only ones who benefit from the flies only waters there, the whole comunity does. Different rivers have different size limits and different gear restrictions etc. Same as all game laws. Is is discrimination to say that on October first you have to use archery equipment for deer and you have to leave the firearm at home????? Nope its game laws and some of those laws are to protect game from some people who think they need to creel every fish they bring to hand. Sound familiar?
> 
> Ganzer


When I said people like you, I meant people who support gear restrictions and since when I read your last post, that is what it seemed like to me, I used the term (people like you) That's all I had to know.

I remarked about Orvis and BBT because they actively lobbied for restrictions that would limit my fishing opportunities. I would protest any other profiteer who was involved in the same attempt to limit my fishing opportunities. If the DNR wants to pick winners and losers, consider what the gear restrictions is going to do to Kings Sporting shop or Eds bait shop in Baldwin. 

Different limits are not in the same class as gear restrictions. Bow hunting season is separate from gun season so to make a fair comparison you would have to restrict compound bows from some section of land and only allow long bows for example. In some areas guns are not allowed for safety reasons and in some areas rifles are not allowed (only shotguns) for similar safety reasons. Those are good reasons

TC, you cant justify discrimination in MI by pointing out discrimination practices in other states. These practices are causing a rift in the fishing community that is not likely to heal until all fishermen are treated equally and I believe we are seeing the beginning of the end of all special gear restrictions. This meeting is one of the first steps. You can hang on to the end if you want, but if there was even one good reason for gear restrictions, somebody would have brought it up in the last ten years I have been asking the question.

Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based solely on their membership in a certain group or category. Discrimination is the actual behavior towards members of another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups.


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## TC-fisherman

Splitshot said:


> TC, you cant justify discrimination in MI by pointing out discrimination practices in other states.


I was pointing out a post that implied there were no special regulations in Montana was untrue. 


as far as Discrimination..... 

All fisherman are treated equal. Fishing gear is not.

No individual or group is excluded from waters. Certain types of fishing gear are.

so much for discrimination


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## Whit1

TC-fisherman said:


> upper Madison from the quake lake almost to Ennis is C&R, artifical only. That whole stretch is in Montana.
> 
> There's an abundance of artificial and C&R only water in montana
> http://fwp.mt.gov/fishing/regulations/
> 
> there all listed under exceptions to standard regulations.


 
I've been looking at the same link. While there are indeed lure restricted waters as well as no-kill these regs seem to be found in the upper reaches of the river, such as you mention on the Madison, or they involve cutthroat trout which are semi-sacred in MT.

There is also an interesting piece which addresses the value of gear restricrted trout water and, basically, it says that more study is needed. They also mention using bait in an "active" manner ie. bottom bouncing, and by using such a method does indeed reduce fish mortality. It also mentins that by cutting the line from the hook of a deeply hooked fish is effective in increasing the survival rate of hooked trout.

This issue isn't as cut and dried......not NEARLY so......as some would have us believe.


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## MERGANZER

Splitshot said:


> When I said people like you, I meant people who support gear restrictions and since when I read your last post, that is what it seemed like to me, I used the term (people like you) That's all I had to know.
> 
> I remarked about Orvis and BBT because they actively lobbied for restrictions that would limit my fishing opportunities. I would protest any other profiteer who was involved in the same attempt to limit my fishing opportunities. If the DNR wants to pick winners and losers, consider what the gear restrictions is going to do to Kings Sporting shop or Eds bait shop in Baldwin.
> 
> Different limits are not in the same class as gear restrictions. Bow hunting season is separate from gun season so to make a fair comparison you would have to restrict compound bows from some section of land and only allow long bows for example. In some areas guns are not allowed for safety reasons and in some areas rifles are not allowed (only shotguns) for similar safety reasons. Those are good reasons
> 
> TC, you cant justify discrimination in MI by pointing out discrimination practices in other states. These practices are causing a rift in the fishing community that is not likely to heal until all fishermen are treated equally and I believe we are seeing the beginning of the end of all special gear restrictions. This meeting is one of the first steps. You can hang on to the end if you want, but if there was even one good reason for gear restrictions, somebody would have brought it up in the last ten years I have been asking the question.
> 
> Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based solely on their membership in a certain group or category. Discrimination is the actual behavior towards members of another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups.


 
The argument has been made that the flies only water doesnt bring in more money to areas such as Baldwin. If thats the case why would they lobby for the restrictions then? On a side note you mentioned Kings.......they are no concern to me at all thats the poster child for poor customer service and advice. Anyhow, you can fish that section of the river just leave the spawn and nightcrawlers at home that day. This argument of fisherman having things or opportunities taken from them is ridiculous how do you think the fly fishermen feel? You are trying to take from them now. Its established and it isnt hurting anyone in fact it has helped promote that section of river throughout the world and the businesses have benefitted from it a great deal. Good for them at least someone in this state is getting some money.

Ganzer


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## Boardman Brookies

MERGANZER said:


> This argument of fisherman having things or opportunities taken from them is ridiculous how do you think the fly fishermen feel? You are trying to take from them now.
> Ganzer


Flyfishermen can fish 100% of the water in MI.


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## MERGANZER

Boardman Brookies said:


> Flyfishermen can fish 100% of the water in MI.


 
AND SO CAN YOU!!!!!! Follow the laws like all other fishermen! nobody said you cant fish an area while someone else can. Get over it.

Ganzer


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## MERGANZER

Fact is alot of flies only water is in areas where the fly fisherman can actually backcast and fish dries. That is not very doable on a small brookie stream that winds through a cedar swamp where drifting crawlers is about the only way to get a fish on. This to me is like gun hunters complaining about bow hunters and I will respond the same way. Get some flies!

Ganzer


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