# Who's does do you target?



## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Now I know all the deer are everyones and there is not ownership, etc., etc., etc., just had to get that out of the way, but if I say your deer, or who's deer, that is just reffering to the herd in your area...not that you yourself owns the deer herd. Just had to offer that disclaimer.

One of my biggest fears for my local deer herd is that I do my best for them on my property, get them in great shape, educate the surrounding landowners about NOT shooting most does and practicing appropriate doe harvest, and then those deer migrate to the south and I could have some group that comes up from downstate, or even a local landowner and friends, that fill their doe tags on the yarding or migrating deer. 

They might think, "wow, there are lots of deer", but they are removing entire family groups from 8 miles away in sparse deer areas. That can also happen in ag areas where cover is at a premium and deer are pushed into cover-rich areas due to extreme hunting pressure for much of the gun and muzzleloader season. Those increased herds are there for only a short time each year, but they ARE NOT reflective of the local population and NOT reflective of their contribution to total population indicators.

Really, your antlerless herd should be managed for what is there for the bulk of the non-hunting season...not hunting season especially if you have great cover and a good habitat improvement plan. There are some real incosiderate hunters out there with great cover that shoot every deer than moves from gun season through muzzleloader and are basically decimating the areas entire population for many other landowners. That is NOT QDM. Really, your harvest goals should be established during the summer to late summer time when fawning rates are determined and you can target resident deer only, with somewhat of an educated guess. 

The DNR up here is finally getting that picture as well. They used to have permits available for the Whitefish deer yard area due to the excessive deer numbers that were coming there from the Trenary farmland areas just a few miles north. What was happening is that the Trenary area still carried high numbers, but some low-deer areas to the north such as Chatham or Eben were losing a significant amount of deer because the permits were resulting in a random harvest of deer, and were not targeting specific deer herds. So, what they did was remove most of the permits in the deer yard areas, and instead allowed for crop damage permits to the north in the Trenary area to target the specific problem herd without damaging the lower population herds that migrated from the north, but shared common yarding areas.

Same with farmland, and most lands in MI. The year-round problem areas need to be targeted, NOT where deer run to or hide in for a short period of time due to hunting pressure or excellent habitat. 

Bottom line, take a look at your deer herds before hunting season and try to make an accurate determination for harvest goals so that if you feel the need to harvest a high number of deer you can target your own property's herd and problem deer numbers....and not someone elses.

I would also suggest there is quite a bit of positive evidence to show that harvesting early in the season is also the best for food availability, rut activity, buck energy conservation, etc. This will also further insure that you are targeting the deer herd that really needs to be thinned, and not some poor guys deer herd 2 miles away that has 1/5 the deer numbers because you keep shooting them every November or December when his area deer migrate to or around you property because of your great habitat improvement efforts, hunting pressure, or naturally attractive property features. 

Are you shooting the right does?


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Jeff, that's all fine and good. But when you have neighbors that harvest ONLY antlered bucks, the only way to counter act it is to harvest an equal amount of does.

So when those does seek out my property, they get harvested.


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## Huntsman27 (Sep 29, 2004)

Pick out a nice sized one for a freezer full and fire. Enjoyed some fine venison chilli just a bit ago. Man was that good.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

You know, the guys who hunt near me don't seem overly concerned with whose bucks they target. Of course(your disclaimer is on the money), they're not shooting "my" bucks, anymore than I (and my guests) are shooting "their" does.


Hunters in my neighborhood consistently overharvest bucks and underharvest does; the local doe:buck ratio and buck age structure is poor. If it weren't for the fact that I create as much cover as I can, and do things to attract deer to my farm during the hunting seasons specifically to facilitate a maximized doe harvest, including does which may not be year-round residents of my farm, things would be much worse.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Do you guys understand that you could be managing other people's property, and not yours? In essence, you are not doing much to target your specific property and depending upon when deer move onto your property, and when the local deer herd travels in the area, you could actually be targeting deer that don't have any effect on your property. Basically, your property numbers could remain high throughout the bulk of the year, resulting in the increased opportunity for habitat degredation, due to the fact that the doe harvest was not targeting the does from your property...but your neighbors instead.

Just wondering if some of you put any thought into that. The best scenerio, and I believe what the true essence of QDM is all about(facts and research based management), is a scenerio in which you look at your deer herd through out the summer and late summer months, basically pre-season, make an educated guess as to how many does to harvest, and harvest them early.

Look at it this way. How does shooting your neighbor's deer help you? Especially if by shooting your neighbor's deer which are only around your property for a short time anyways, you do not shoot some of your own local deer that spend the bulk of the year on your property, using your habitat.

Look at this extreme. The deer migrate through my property every year, some of the deer may be from 10-15 miles north or even more. Say I look at my property, like last year, and feel it appropriate to shoot a doe or two. I could easily wait until the late December archery season and take a migrating doe...it's legal, I would enjoy the meat, and it's easy. BUT, I just did absolutely nothing to help my own property, and instead took a doe from an area the quite possible shouldn't even have a doe harvested. At the same time, say I took a doe that came from a property that could stand to have some does shot and no one did, well, that's all find and dandy, but again....I didn't do anything to help my own property.

It's hard enough to make accurate decisions on your own property, let alone someone elses. Targeting your own deer, that use and eat your habitat for most of the year is what appropriate and effective harvest is all about. We hunted property in the thumb that would attract a winter population from several sections. Yeah, the 100+ deer we would see at time seemed like a lot in late December, but that again was most of the deer from several square miles and was in no way reflective of an indication of how we should manage our own property.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> Do you guys understand that you could be managing other people's property, and not yours?


That's the point isn't it?

Most "experts" agree that you need 500 or more acres to effectivily "manage" a herd of deer.

I do my part and manage my habitat to the maximum and it helps tremendously, but other than passing on every 1.5 year old buck that passes by, which helps a little, the most effective way to manage my area herd is through doe harvest. 

Instituting agressive/liberal/adequate doe harvest has had the single biggest postive effect on the deer herd on and around my property (farm country) (30-40 dpsm). 

Just ask the neighbors.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I don't think it is fair for people to think it is their job to manage others property. To take a piece of property that is 20 acres and shoot 15 doe's off of it is irresponsible regardless of what you think needs to be done. Target what your goals are for your piece I think is what jeff is saying not everyone elses property. If I am wrong I apologize Jeff. I think maybe the yarding areas need to be closed in general after a certain date if people are going in there and wiping out the deer. Jeff do you see the sam edeer year after year or are they different from year to year after they leave the yards in the spring? Just curious

AW


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## Bwana (Sep 28, 2004)

Jeff, farmlegend & Swamp, seems that you guys are debating and trying to apply apples to oranges and make a comparison. Wouldn't the difference between Hillsdale County and Alger County effectively negate the ability to compare (I don't know where you're at Swamp). I am simply pointing out the differences in areas. I have a buddy that hunts in Lapeer and another that hunts in Branch, I have compared my results to theirs in the past (I have since stopped making the comparison:lol: ) but concluded it is futile because I hunt in Alcona which bears no resemblence; but its my choice to hunt there. You cannot say what is good for the SLP is going to be good for the Northern UP as the habitat is polar opposites. Do the deer even migrate in the SLP due to weather considerations??? I personally believe you are both right for your area. Jeff, saving does will probably make a great difference in your hunting and maybe your neighbors hunting experiences. Fl, just continue to whack em' and stack em as it probably won't even be noticed.:lol: 


I may have to take a licking from both sides on this one but it would seem that a meaningful comparison cannot be made.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

*MY* property getsmanaged everytime someone chooses to harvest a 1.5 year old buck off of my neighboring properties.

Yet it's only unfair for someone to harvest does on their land in a way they see fit? 

A little hypocritical?

15 does off 20 acres, what if that was the only doe harvest for the entire section?

If you don't like it bring back the minimum acerage requirement, until then the DNR issues those permits to be used, if there not used, more will be issued that following year.

If you see alot of does you should be shooting alot of does, if you don't you shouldn't.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

SLP is not the UP, never said it was.

But very few places have the extremes and dynamics of the UP.

The deer around me don't yard and were are lucky if they travel more than 1/2 mile. They don't have to move, they have everything they need with a couple hundred yards.

My best time to make a dent in the doe population is on opening day of the firearm season and we take advantage of it. The hunting keeps getting better because of it.

I'm in Branch as well and my bio put the deer herd @ about 40 DSPM in my section.


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

"If you see alot of does you should be shooting alot of does, if you don't you shouldn't.".

How many does are alot and how many should you shoot if you see alot of doe? Should you harvest only adult doe or should you harvest 50% adult and 50% fawns? What percentage of the total anterless population should be removed each year if you want to keep the herd stable?


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

In a magazine article about a year ago, Charles Alsheimer said the way you tell if your deer are healthy is to see what they are eating over the winter. The winter, woody browse is the limiting factor in my area. That is what I use as a determining factor as to how hard I want to hit the does. The number of deer on my property during the summer months doesn`t mean squat. The winter browse is what is critical. So the number of deer I have in winter is of utmost importance.

Some members of this board should read what Dr. Harry Jacobson says about a 40% doe harvest. I know I am trying to do my part.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Adam Waszak said:


> I don't think it is fair for people to think it is their job to manage others property.


Adam, unless you control 2,000 acres or more, every time you shoot a buck you are "managing others property". What you are calling unfair is something you yourself have been practicing, and, by the way, we've all been practicing.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

UP herd dynamics are different than most other areas of the state. The UP is a land of extremes. It has some of the states highest deer densities as well as the states lowest deer densities. It's has high predator numbers, short growing seasons as well as areas of extreme snow depths.

My hunting land is at the opposite end of the spectrum from NorthJeff's in many ways but very similar in others. I'm surrounded AG land where NJ's land is big woods. Both of us have migratory herds but the herd whos home range includes my land leave earlier and return later. The deer are only on my land 7-8 months per year.

My deer herd densities are higher than NJ's land due to my proximity to AG land. The land in and around my camp is highly productive. The deer are large bodied and the age structure is pretty good. If conditions are right about half my annual deer sightings are fawns.

What may work for NJ may not work for me and visa-versa. Our perceptions of herd dynamics are different but that doesn't mean I don't understand where he's coming from. I believe that he's posting his experiences based on what he sees in "big woods" non AG area of the UP.

I feel the need to shoot does based on what I see through the summer and early fall. The trouble I have is determining how many tags to buy in early August. This is before the time of transition. I get an influx of deer starting after doe tags are sold out. This influx lasts until the deer begin to head to the yards in November.

The transition-influx where my camp is at is caused by the AG land hay fields going dormant and my food plots becoming the best food source around. It's a nice problem to have but maybe not for the neighboring land owners. That's why I believe that food plots and habitat improvements should be voluntary and not mandatory.  It gives me quality deer hunting but that's why I work so hard at making my land the best around.

I don't have to shoot does but I feel, based on my observations, it should be done where I'm at. I would rather send too few deer to the winter yards than chance having too many deer devastate what little winter habitat remains.


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

'Some members of this board should read what Dr. Harry Jacobson says about a 40% doe harvest. I know I am trying to do my part"

Just what does the 40% doe harvest mean?

1. Does it mean 40% of the deer harvested should be doe?

2. Does it mean one should harvest 40% of the adult doe population?

3. Does it mean one should harvest 40% of the anterless population?


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

How many does are alot and how many should you shoot if you see alot of doe?
When I see 8-10 per sit, I consider it a lot of doe. 

Should you harvest only adult doe or should you harvest 50% adult and 50% fawns? A doe is a doe in farm country.

What percentage of the total anterless population should be removed each year if you want to keep the herd stable? We try to harvest 2 does for every buck harvested off our land and 1 doe for every buck harvested by the neighbors. Not too concerned about the percentage of the doe population we removed. I'll worry about that when my neighbors are worried about the percentage of the buck population they remove.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Swamp Ghost said:


> *MY* property getsmanaged everytime someone chooses to harvest a 1.5 year old buck off of my neighboring properties.
> 
> Yet it's only unfair for someone to harvest does on their land in a way they see fit?
> 
> A little hypocritical?.



Hypocritical? NO if your neighbor shoots a 1.5 year old buck that is one buck or one deer but I see guys on here saying "kill all the doe's you see" thats a little different. If your neighbor went out and shot 20 bucks I can see your anger with him at that point. I see the need to shoot doe's and I have shot more doe's than bucks while hunting but i like to see deer too and if my neighbor took it upon himself to shoot off all the damn doe's we would have us a problem then because it is not right to do so. Like I said before if you have 600 acres or something like that then manage it the way you think but i see it as unfair to your neighbors to determine what their hunting will be like for the next few years. Your action affect more than your property and it is only curtious and being a good neighbor to respect the others who have a vested interest in the local wildlife.

AW


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> Your action affect more than your property and it is only curtious and being a good neighbor to respect the others who have a vested interest in the local wildlife.


That's why I shoot does.



> I see guys on here saying "kill all the doe's you see"


I haven't seen that and you be hard pressed to find anyone that actually does it.


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

Adam Waszak said:


> I see guys on here saying "kill all the doe's you see" thats a little different. AW



It is different - and I don't think, that when they say that, that they really mean that - it's relative - it's all relative - 

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86847

See above thread.

ferg....


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

I totally agree that doe harvest is different in areas. . .and the area does not need to be that far from each other. I hunt two different properties and on the one we take about two doe for each buck.

On the other one, in a combination of our land and neighbors, about 1000-1100 acres total, we took 85 anterless deer this year, 6 of them being BBs. This would be a high number in some areas, but not here. We have taken around 20 to 30 each year in recent years, 45 was the highest four years ago. We were just having too many deer still. 

Did we take too many? Nope, maybe we didn't take enough!! During Muzzleloader season, I saw 40 deer in one morning from 8-10:30. There is a lot of farmland around this area, and most were shot by the farmers, but we did our part as well. If I am still hunting there next year, it should be good. . .it's fun seeing 80 deer a day, but I'll take 40.  


And to answer the question of which doe that I target. . . I have been waiting for this beautiful piebald doe for a couple years now. That's the ONE that I really target.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Here is why I wrote this. I have much more experience hunting farmland than anywhere. I hunted farmland for 12 years in the thumb and lower MI..but mostly the thumb, and then have hunted farmland 2 years in KY, a year in IN, and 3 years in WI...so that's where the bulk of my experience comes from. 

As far as big woods go, 12 years in PA, around 10 years total in the U.P., and a few years in lower MI.

Basically, at least 2 states of varying habitat the past 12 years, at least 3 states the past 5 years, and 4 states the past 3 years. 

So, my observations for writing this include a very large perspective from experience in several states and various habitat types. I look at this only as a concern for one of the main negatives directed at QDM, as well as the QDMA, from AL, to PA, to lower MI, to the U.P. of MI. We greatly need to increase our sensitivity towards this issue. I doesn't matter if we are in Birmingham, Erie, Cass City, or Alger County. Just going out and blasting does in itself is not QDM. Preaching you are practicing QDM and consistantly and boldly shooting antlerless deer without the sensitivity to acknowledge that there are indeed areas all across this country that have pockets of low deer density is dragging down the QDM effort and the worst part about it is that it's not a true reflection of QDM.

A guy says "I practice QDM". You say, "really, how do you do that?". The guy responds, "I shoot every doe I see, pass on yearling bucks, and improve my habitat". Is that QDM? In many cases "NO". There are certainly exceptions, but QDM is about science and fact...not blanket management options. Some of the worst neighbors to have in the long run are the guys that have great habitat, and shoot many does from the area that take refuge in their property. This isn't coming from Alger county MI, this most often happens in farmland...not the U.P. I know of pockets in the thumb that have very low deer numbers because of 1 inconsiderate neighbor that has great habitat, has lots of friends, and shoots lots of does. Many just love shooting the deer, but to do it under the guise of "QDM", can really give QDM a bad name and is not accurate.

Again, QDM is about science, not an indiscriminate war on does. Just like what is going on in PA right now. They call it QDM, but unlimited permits on low populations on public land is not QDM. Doesn't matter though, it still gives QDM a bad name and it's wrong because we have so many great thoughts to go by, including.....grab some shells, get some friends, and shoot every doe you see....shoot 40% of all the does, every year....Hey, those are fine quotes for a lot of properties, but there are just as many properties where they don't fit, but they are still "representative" of QDM...it's a shame.

As I continue to go around the U.P. and speak about QDM and how it applies to the U.P., I will with stubborn determination work to get the truth out, but I got to tell you sometimes we are our own worst enemy for getting the truth to the people and it's a tough battle. Personally, it's sad that at every presentation I've been to in the last few months the statement comes up, "We can't have QDM up here because we can't afford to increase doe permits". Hey, it's not true, never has been, but looking at some of the comments from time to time I just don't blame people for having that opinion...it's easy to answer, but still it's a sadly inaccurate comment on QDM that is unecessary. When you start to hear those same comments in lower MI, PA, and other places it's not just an inaccurate comment, but a problem.

Just as Luv2 said, "I feel the need to shoot does based on what I see through the summer and early fall. The trouble I have is determining how many tags to buy in early August." That's what you have to do, target your own population, not someone elses. Just like Luv2 should never base his local population numbers on fall movements of deer that only effect his property for 2 months, it's no different anywhere else, and we can all be more effective managers of our own property....if we manage for our own property, and not someone elses.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Good post NJ and very accurate on the QDm thing. But unfortunately your the minority in the QDM world. NJ your into "Deer Management" and the QDM puts more thought and selling into the "Q" rather than the "DM", hard to explain but I think some will get what I'm trying to say.

One wonders why posters like me want no part of mandatory QDM.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

I agree with b & n, those are some good thoughts NJ. Some members of QDMA have given this group the reputation as a doe killing organization. Maybe those members should reread Perry's post again. 

L & O


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> A guy says "I practice QDM". You say, "really, how do you do that?". The guy responds, "I shoot every doe I see, pass on yearling bucks, and improve my habitat"


Who is this guy? 

Sorry NJ, but just because an area has "pockets of low deer density" doesn't mean it's "representative" of the entire area.

Lets get one thing straight, it's not QDM when you have unlimited doe permits and no buck harvest restriciton.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

B&N,

Just to comment on what you said, I don't think it's the QDMA that gives that impression, but instead some of the membership base. In my experience the further you go up to the top the more sensitivity to this issue there is, including what Perry has posted here. Again, many around here, and certainly in PA right now, think that mandatory QDM will always include an increase in doe permits, and that is not true.

At the same time I'm all for people shooting whatever does they want on their own property within the law, whether it be your neighbors deer, or yours. Personally, if your neighbor doesn't like you for how many deer you are shooting...that's your problem, not mine. But, when it's done under a QDM banner or lable, that's where in a lot of cases it does more harme than good...at least socially. And, if you feel you have too many does on your own property, but harvest does at the wrong times, you could easily be thinning deer not on your property, but someone elses. Just a thought.

QDM is a good thing for all deer herds, all the time...but sometimes an inaccurate message doesn't leave hunters with that impression and it's happening in more places than the U.P. of MI....at least that's my impression, but than again I have a lot more experience in areas other than the U.P. of MI, so maybe the inaccurate negative impressions about QDM are actually better here than most other areas.


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

"Sorry NJ, but just because an area has "pockets of low deer density" doesn't mean it's "representative" of the entire area.

Just like a DMU that is over carrying capacity, or a state for that matter, does not mean the majority of the properties are actually over...that's where the sensitivity comes in.

Lets get one thing straight, it's not QDM when you have unlimited doe permits and no buck harvest restriciton."

Exactly, but it often gives QDM and the QDMA a bad image...and that's really all I care about. 

It's all about the correct image of QDM and the QDMA. We just need to be sensitive to other hunters around our properties and accurately assessing and harvesting deer that inhabit your property for the majority of the year...and not your neighbors. It's easy to do some damage in some areas...not that every one is, but it is something to at least look at a little closer when managing your own property.

Whether we like it or not QDM has now crossed into some circles across the entire country as the "doe-shooting" organization and it's not accurate. The more we ignore it...the worse it gets. There are people on this site right now that are reading this that would be members of the QDMA if it wasn't for the "doe-shooting" reputation that QDM has. They actually understand what QDM is, and what the QDMA stands for, like it, but don't have a membership because of some QDMA members rhetoric...not QDM or the QDMA, and that's the problem. If you are practicing QDM correctly, your neighbors will love you for it...not hate you, and I trully hope that is the case and we need to get that message out. In my experience QDM will not only work everywhere, but be liked everywhere it is applied correctly.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

QDM more than anything is about balance.

I simply try to balance both the harvest on my property and on the properties around mine, because doe harvest does not occur on quite a few of them. 

If harvesting a doe or two for every antlered buck is considered "grab some shells, get some friends, and shoot every doe you see....shoot 40% of all the does", "doe slaughter" or "indiscriminate war on does".

What do you call what happens to our buck population, every fall?

Some need to re-evalute the term "adequate" and realize that to some, no matter what QDM's message is, they just don't like being told what to do.


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## orion (Apr 8, 2002)

Good points Jeff, I agree with you 100%


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

I look at balance as a target point. Population too high...lower it

Population too low...RAISE IT

Age structure too low...RAISE IT

Sex ratios too low...well, without an adequate camera census ratios will always appear much worse than they are so that really isn't much of a concern until you have decisive census opportunity.


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Exactly, just because someone harvests 10-12 antlerless deer off their property doesn't make them "inconsiderate doe killers".

If it does then shooting 1.5 year old bucks makes a person just as inconsiderate.

If you can't afford to increase doe permits, then you should probably look into reducing your buck harvest on top of it. Your problems are bigger than doe harvest.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Jeff,
That is a great series of posts. As you've found out in your travels and talks all across the U.P., and in this forum, the perception that QDM is all about shooting any doe on sight is pervasive, throwing a shroud over what lies beneath this inaccurate veneer. 

You have a tough row to hoe trying to undo the damage caused by both pro-QDMers and anti-QDMers in pushing misconceptions out there to the general deer hunting public.

Like I mentioned in a thread earlier this year, some of the pro-QDM members in here are damn poor salesmen in promoting a deer management program they espouse.

Keep up the good fight young man, agree or disagree with what you propose one has to admire your tenacity and dedication and desire to get out information and data.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Swamp-does it ever occur to you that maybe that neighbor or neighbors feel a doe harvest might not be the best interest for the herd on HIS property. Maybe your pulling a good majority of the area herd to YOUR property based on your habitat improvements and the neighbors might not be seeing AS many deer as you. This exactly what NJ is trying to point out. It really seems to me your assuming you know everybodies deer density on everybodies property around you!? If so, well good for you and the above is mute.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Swamp Ghost said:


> Exactly, just because someone harvests 10-12 antlerless deer off their property doesn't make them "inconsiderate doe killers".
> 
> If it does then shooting 1.5 year old bucks makes a person just as inconsiderate.
> 
> If you can't afford to increase doe permits, then you should probably look into reducing your buck harvest on top of it. Your problems are bigger than doe harvest.



If everyone had your attitude in a square mile you end up with problems if you shoot 10 doe's off 40 acres because it is your responsibility to manage the square mile what happens when everyone else does the same thing? I'll tell you 160 does get killed and there are very few areas that have 160 dpsm aren't they. You get mad because a guy shoots a 1.5 year old deer so you respond with 10 does  I think QDM is something this state is moving towards and someday we will all be forced to practice it but it is attitudes such as yours that make the fence sitters and those opposed to QDM really turn against you. You are not Rod Clute it is not your duty to manage my property or anyone elses property. Do what is right on your property and leave a few deer alive for godsake. Getting mad at a guy who shoots a buck you deem as non quality will get you nowhere quick

AW


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

> If everyone had your attitude in a square mile you end up with problems if you shoot 10 doe's off 40 acres because it is your responsibility to manage the square mile what happens when everyone else does the same thing?


Believe me, they don't. It's not my responsibilty, I do it because it's the right thing to do. 



> Do what is right on your property and leave a few deer alive for godsake. Getting mad at a guy who shoots a buck you deem as non quality will get you nowhere quick.


I do leave plenty of deer alive and I don't get mad at someone shooting a "non-quality" buck (whatever that means), is there such a thing? 

But getting mad at a guy that utilizes the antlerless permits issued by the DNR, is as close to double talk as I've seen.

I've got a pretty good idea of what the deer herd is doing in my section, because I see 75% of them in my clover fields.  

My neighbors see plenty of deer and are constantly asking me, "What are you guys doing over there?"

The deer hunting keeps getting better and better and it's not because we let does walk.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

But see you keep saying you do it because it is the right thing. Who are you to decide that and shooting tons of doe's just because there are permits out there doesn't make it right. There are permits out there for counties to use and hopefully spread them out but if they are all used in a 5 mile area that isn't good either. You use the DNR allocation of tags to back you up on this well you need to go north my friend and see the wonderful job they have done there. If your property is pulling deer thats great for you congratulations but if you kill tons of does what happens to the guy who doesn't have crop fields or food plots etc when does he see deer when they go to your property to be shot. And a non-quality deer as I referred to is the 1.5 year old you seem to get so angry at being harvested. You will do what you want that is obvious but I wish you would consider the people around you may not want the doe's all gone.

AW


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

See Adam, I'm not up north. That's the point I think everyone has been trying to get across. I'm surrounded by crop fields, as are my neighbors.

Tons of does? 900# of doe is more like it.

A 1.5 year old buck is not a "non-quality" buck.

I'm not the one who's angry or complaining. I have a harvest strategy in place and it has worked out quite well for me and my neighbors.

My job isn't to make my neighbors happy, although they benefit tremendously from what we do, it's to ensure a quality hunting experience for the hunters that come and bust their butt from Febuary to August in order to ensure that quality hunting.

My neighbors
would make me happy if they would drive there 4 wheelers to their blinds, not construct shooting boxes on Nov. 13th, etc., etc.....

If only the world were perfect.......................


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

I understand what you are saying but what I am saying is what if everyone was doing what you are doing? You would go out to your stand one year and say "where are they what happened" Like we did up north. We would see 15 deer per sit easily a few years ago and I saw zero all season this year because people came in and wiped em out because the permits allowed for it. If you have great hunting thats wonderful I wish you more and more of it I just hope you have as good of a handle on it as you say because it affects a great number of people I am sure. I wish you continued success

AW


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## Swamper (Apr 12, 2004)

I get concerned when I hear about hunters referring to deer as "my deer" or "your deer". They are all our deer, hunters and non hunters alike. Some also go further to help the deer herd through food plots, habitat improvement, etc But in the end, doing these things gives us no more cause to think of some as mine and others as yours. 

And we have delegated the issuance of doe permits and buck licenses to the Department of Natural Resources. To criticize fellow hunters for shooting legal does and bucks is one's right, but does nothing to support the cause of hunters and gun owners.

It would appear that we are showing the signs of a long winter, perhaps. 

Swamper


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Swamper, did you read the first line of this post?

"Now I know all the deer are everyones and there is not ownership, etc., etc., etc., just had to get that out of the way, but if I say your deer, or who's deer, that is just reffering to the herd in your area...not that you yourself owns the deer herd. Just had to offer that disclaimer." 

I knew someone always has to throw this out...been doing this for years, so that's why I started with that line.

Everyone else,

Try and look at it this way...

If there are too many deer on your property...shoot the right amount to get the population down to the level you have researched to be acceptable for your habitat.

If the buck age structure is poor...limit the harvest of young bucks and try to lead by example.

As far as sex-ratios go, they are never as bad as the appear, in fact often they are twice as good as they appear so unless you have a very good census method for estimating the number of bucks in the area, this is usually the last factor to look at.

Instead, buck age structure is usually the largest deficiency. But, I wouldn't necessarily worry about sex ratio, until the buck age structure is addressed first...why bother. Basically, keep the population as high as possible to be in balance with the habitat, and work on the buck age structure. What you then accomplish is getting your population on your property in balance..but not too low. At the same time you try and address the buck age structure. If in some way you can limit the number of young bucks taken in year 1, then if your population is in balance you can afford to shoot a few more does relative to the number of bucks that will be increased in the population. 

Hey, shoot all the does you want...just don't tell your neighbors it's QDM, unless it really is and you can prove it too them. Also, keep in mind the migrating charecteristics of the local deer herd...if they have those characteristics (of which I experienced greatly in the thumb area and WI farmland) and just try and bear that in mind when estimating adequate doe harvest for your property....both in numbers of does to shoot based on the bulk of the year-round local population characteristics as well as the best time to harvest that population to insure you are removing an appropriate harvest target from the exact herd you have researched for herd reduction.

Just like in using a checkbook, just because you have checks, doesn't mean you are making a wise purchase decision, and just because you use them doesn't mean what you purchased can be called an investment. Same with antlerless permits...just because they are available doesn't mean you are making a wise management decision if you use them and just because you are using them does not mean it's called QDM.

Just trying to offer perspective.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

It's pretty tough deciding what is an appropriate harvest on property that is miles, sometimes hundreds of miles away.

Time to shut this one down.


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