# Zone change proposal



## Zorba (Jan 24, 2007)

IMG_2559




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Zorba


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Sep 5, 2019




Zone change proposal






Well this is it. This is the zone change proposal that the DNR will be looking for comments on. There should be a opportunity for comment on this coming soon on the DNR website.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

131 will be moved to 31. 

They hope to have an online survey with multiple questions about this before duck season. There should be a couple of different maps as well. 

Personally I think there’s too much change going on here. Just ask for opinions on the bay being moved to zone 2 and be done with it.


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## JHipp214 (Sep 2, 2019)

What’s the reasoning for the proposed change? Seems like a lot of hassle for not much benefit. Then again I don’t know the ins and outs of it all.


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## Zorba (Jan 24, 2007)

Lots of munuscong and Drummond guys asking for a later start. Western up guys asking for an earlier start. Gives more opportunity for UP hunters at 2 opening days. Extends season. 

For the south Zone extending up to the NW lower? They were asking for a later season. They say freeze up is later and there was some evidence to support their claim. I believe the survey people will be able to take breaks it down into 3 proposals. The up change. The south Zone change and Saginaw bay change.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Zorba said:


> Lots of munuscong and Drummond guys asking for a later start. Western up guys asking for an earlier start. Gives more opportunity for UP hunters at 2 opening days. Extends season.
> 
> For the south Zone extending up to the NW lower? They were asking for a later season. They say freeze up is later and there was some evidence to support their claim. I believe the survey people will be able to take breaks it down into 3 proposals. The up change. The south Zone change and Saginaw bay change.


The guys I know who live and hunt Drummond and munuscong do not want a later start. Granted that’s anecdotal but based on everything I’ve seen it’s not a possible choice. Not to mention they freeze up and lose birds much earlier than Saginaw Bay.


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## duckbuster2 (Aug 14, 2008)

I like Saginaw Bay in zone 2 its a lot different than lake st.clair and lake eire.But one week one way or the other don't care.


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## Duke of Flintown (Aug 27, 2018)

I guess looking at this from a statistical point of view, why Change the zones, why not just add a week to the start or end of the season for the already existing zones? Is shifting a week going to boost harvest numbers greater then just adding a week? I would be more in favor of having more time to hunt overall rather then shifting it earlier or later?


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## Zorba (Jan 24, 2007)

craigrh13 said:


> The guys I know who live and hunt Drummond and munuscong do not want a later start. Granted that’s anecdotal but based on everything I’ve seen it’s not a possible choice. Not to mention they freeze up and lose birds much earlier than Saginaw Bay.


I guess I should clarify. Its not that the eastern UP guys want a later start. Its that the western UP guys want an earlier start. For example, this year the federal guidelines allowed us to open duck season 21st of Sept. The western UP hunters tend to hunt smaller waters that freeze much sooner than the eastern hunters do. They prefer to have an "early as possible" opener in the North zone. I would have to agree that the "North Zone" should open as early as possible to take full advantage of the federal framework. 

By separating the St. Mary's from the rest of the UP we gain opportunity where the habitat and climate support it.


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## Zorba (Jan 24, 2007)

Duke of Flintown said:


> I guess looking at this from a statistical point of view, why Change the zones, why not just add a week to the start or end of the season for the already existing zones? Is shifting a week going to boost harvest numbers greater then just adding a week? I would be more in favor of having more time to hunt overall rather then shifting it earlier or later?


Problem is we only get 60 days. 60 days with the option to have 3 zones with 1 split


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## Duke of Flintown (Aug 27, 2018)

Zorba said:


> Problem is we only get 60 days. 60 days with the option to have 3 zones with 1 split


Gotcha, I hunt the NW in Leelanau County and the Saginaw Bay, and the birds leave Leelanau way before they ever leave the Bay. Kinda seems weird that Leelanau would start after the Bay. Anecdotal ..... I know but for reference.


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## lefty421 (Dec 7, 2012)

Don't like it. at least not the moving the bay to middle zone. Not a fan of any proposal that shifts the hunting on saginaw bay earlier than it is now, especially if the new changes means the hunting on the bay is closed BEFORE places like Shiawassee. As things are now, with the bay in the lower zone, when inland opportunities in this area start to freeze up, like shiawassee and your typical farm/beaver ponds, you can still make a short trip to the bay and find open water and birds. 

If I remember correctly, Shiawassee froze up last year before the regular season ended.... We had some awesome hunts out on the bay after Shiawassee froze up. Under this new proposal, if that same situation were to happen again, hunting the bay might not be a possibility any more.

I'm not a fan of any proposal that would shut the hunting down on the bay any earlier than it is now. PERIOD. 

Don't really care about the UP change, or even the western side change, but I really don't like the idea of shifting the bay's dates a week earlier.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

lefty421 said:


> Don't like it. at least not the moving the bay to middle zone. Not a fan of any proposal that shifts the hunting on saginaw bay earlier than it is now, especially if the new changes means the hunting on the bay is closed BEFORE places like Shiawassee. As things are now, with the bay in the lower zone, when inland opportunities in this area start to freeze up, like shiawassee and your typical farm/beaver ponds, you can still make a short trip to the bay and find open water and birds.
> 
> If I remember correctly, Shiawassee froze up last year before the regular season ended.... We had some awesome hunts out on the bay after Shiawassee froze up. Under this new proposal, if that same situation were to happen again, hunting the bay might not be a possibility any more.
> 
> ...


Shi was gunning birds all November. Just because prior freezes doesn’t mean the season was over. I was on the bay in mid November. It was all trash ducks with a few mallards sprinkled in. On the other hand Erie and st. Clair were loaded. 

There’s no viable reason to have Saginaw bay lumped into the same zone as Erie and st Clair. 

Then you have all of the data out there that shows hunter trips and harvest are highest in October. The earlier the opener is the more hunter trips there are and the more birds that are killed.


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## lefty421 (Dec 7, 2012)

craigrh13 said:


> Shi was gunning birds all November. Just because prior freezes doesn’t mean the season was over. I was on the bay in mid November. It was all trash ducks with a few mallards sprinkled in. On the other hand Erie and st. Clair were loaded.


I'm talking December. If I remember correctly, they didn't even hold draws the last few days of the season since everything was froze and nobody was showing up.... at the time, instead of fighting the ice at Shi, we headed out to the bay and did pretty darn good. Under the proposed plan, the bay would have been closed then and would not have been an option for us that last week. 

No thanks.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

lefty421 said:


> I'm talking December. If I remember correctly, they didn't even hold draws the last few days of the season since everything was froze and nobody was showing up.... at the time, instead of fighting the ice at Shi, we headed out to the bay and did pretty darn good. Under the proposed plan, the bay would have been closed then and would not have been an option for us that last week.
> 
> No thanks.


You are one of a few people gunning mergs on the bay the last week of the season. Throw an extra week in October and your hunter trips increase dramatically. Tennis shoe hunters outnumber “hardcore hunters” and I’m willing to bet FP and NQP have far more hunters than the rest of the “only” bay hunters. Whether we like it or not marsh hunters rule the roost.


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## lefty421 (Dec 7, 2012)

craigrh13 said:


> You are one of a few people gunning mergs on the bay the last week of the season. Throw an extra week in October and your hunter trips increase dramatically. Tennis shoe hunters outnumber “hardcore hunters” and I’m willing to bet FP and NQP have far more hunters than the rest of the “only” bay hunters. Whether we like it or not marsh hunters rule the roost.


never shot a single merg on the bay and don't know that we even saw any those last couple weeks, but whatever.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

lefty421 said:


> never shot a single merg on the bay and don't know that we even saw any those last couple weeks, but whatever.


They were all over the bay mid November. Solid butterballs, ge and mergs and the occasional mallard and Squaw thrown in. Most of the birds were down south of there by that time.


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## countryboy17 (Nov 25, 2010)

Your reasoning makes no sense. Why would all of the saginaw bay guys want to drive down to st.clair or erie if there is open water on the bay still? If hunter numbers are higher in october why not keep the zones as they are and open each a week earlier? Its like you are just focused on the bay, open erie and st.clair a week earlier if participation is higher in october.


craigrh13 said:


> Shi was gunning birds all November. Just because prior freezes doesn’t mean the season was over. I was on the bay in mid November. It was all trash ducks with a few mallards sprinkled in. On the other hand Erie and st. Clair were loaded.
> 
> There’s no viable reason to have Saginaw bay lumped into the same zone as Erie and st Clair.
> 
> Then you have all of the data out there that shows hunter trips and harvest are highest in October. The earlier the opener is the more hunter trips there are and the more birds that are killed.


Sent from my SM-G892A using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## countryboy17 (Nov 25, 2010)

Last year was an odd year, the migration pushed through early. There were still plenty of birds around the last weekend besides "trash ducks". We shot our limits layout hunting and had some friends about a half mile from us on shore shoot a 4 man limit of mallards.


craigrh13 said:


> They were all over the bay mid November. Solid butterballs, ge and mergs and the occasional mallard and Squaw thrown in. Most of the birds were down south of there by that time.


Sent from my SM-G892A using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Tonypro (Jan 27, 2012)

I agree 100% with Lefty and Countryboy!! I do NOT like the proposed changes, especially making the Saginaw Bay part of the middle zone. Not everyone has the luxury of taking an entire day to drive to Lake St. Claire or Erie, hunt, then drive a few hours home again.


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## The Doob (Mar 4, 2007)

I like the proposed changes, a lot! I prefer the Bay be in the middle zone and with the dividing line being M-25, the field hunters get to go a week later as they are in zone 3.

As mentioned previously, the hunter days afield go up with the earlier opening dates. Plus, the west side guys get the later season they want/need.

There have been many iterations of the zones, none of them perfect and each with their benefits and limitarions. I will be out there, somewhere, and having a great time so I won't lose a lot of sleep one way or another.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

countryboy17 said:


> Last year was an odd year, the migration pushed through early. There were still plenty of birds around the last weekend besides "trash ducks". We shot our limits layout hunting and had some friends about a half mile from us on shore shoot a 4 man limit of mallards.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I completely understand and agree with you. However, still. If you look at the long term data it still doesn’t show that Saginaw Bay should be lumped in with the lower parts of zone 3 as a whole. I guess that’s my point. Marsh hunters and early season hunters will always outnumber the late season hunters. That’s just the sad truth.


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## countryboy17 (Nov 25, 2010)

craigrh13 said:


> I completely understand and agree with you. However, still. If you look at the long term data it still doesn’t show that Saginaw Bay should be lumped in with the lower parts of zone 3 as a whole. I guess that’s my point. Marsh hunters and early season hunters will always outnumber the late season hunters. That’s just the sad truth.


Yeah either way its only one week, late split will be better a week earlier thats one benefit i guess

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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

countryboy17 said:


> Yeah either way its only one week, late split will be better a week earlier thats one benefit i guess
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


That’s a benefit I see as well. From everything I’ve seen based on people I know the late split isn’t very popular up there. However, further south in the south it’s very popular. 

I would think the late split in the Bay Area would be better if it was at the current zone 2 dates.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

the big mistake some of you are making is.....using last year as your basis for your thoughts.

use the last 10 years and shiawassee is absolutely open after the bay is locked up. we have moving water. usually the only thing open yet up on the bay is way offshore...and yes some guys still hunt it....but not a majority by any means. A majority should be included in your vocabulary when your making decisions about a season.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

and some areas (managed units, small water, marshes) lost more than a few days last season...they lost almost half the season. so be happy the aren't basing these changes off "last" season as we would be opening sept 21st in zone 3 and have a hard time defending a late opener for z3.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

historically, shiawassee and every other area south of us wants latest opener we can get our hands on. Historically saginaw bay (or the powerful people included there) lobby hard for the earliest opener. Bumping bay into z2 solves this issue which has been going on for decades.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

NP was done mid November last year.


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## Far Beyond Driven (Jan 23, 2006)

Question, with Fish Point in a different zone, how will the reserved draw applications work? One for each opener?


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## population control (Apr 18, 2009)

M25 is the line. That is something. Never would have thought that. I had a different line pictured.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> NP was done mid November last year.


I was there November 15th for the pm draw. 3 parties. Two of them went to the south field. I went to the middle field. There were little open holes back in there and they all had birds. We shot wood duck, bufflehead, wigeon, redhead and mallard out of that hole for two days. 

The opportunities were there but the hunters didn’t want nothing to do with it. This was after hunting the bay all week and it as well was empty. 

During that same time st Clair and Erie were banging away and full of hunters. 

Where are these hardcore late season bay hunters at I keep hearing about?? They arent nearly as prevalent as some make them out to be.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> Question, with Fish Point in a different zone, how will the reserved draw applications work? One for each opener?


Whatcha mean?


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Far Beyond Driven said:


> Question, with Fish Point in a different zone, how will the reserved draw applications work? One for each opener?


each opens on respective dates with same drawing...just opens on their zone dates. nothing changes.

keep in mind. the bay used to be split down the middles. I hunted np all the time with pre-draws. used to be our normal. we also did wigwam when it was pre-draw.


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## bfaber (Apr 17, 2010)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> and some areas (managed units, small water, marshes) lost more than a few days last season...they lost almost half the season. so be happy the aren't basing these changes off "last" season as we would be opening sept 21st in zone 3 and have a hard time defending a late opener for z3.


As a field hunter I’d love a sept 21st opened in the south zone. Even a longer off time in mid November when I’m deer deer hunting. The. Still get the late split. That being said what works for me doesn’t work for all everyone keep that in mind.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

bfaber said:


> As a field hunter I’d love a sept 21st opened in the south zone. Even a longer off time in mid November when I’m deer deer hunting. The. Still get the late split. That being said what works for me doesn’t work for all everyone keep that in mind.


oh heck yeah. wheat field mallards  me too.


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## population control (Apr 18, 2009)

When the term bay is brought up. Do we include the managed waterfowl areas. These are not the bay in my opinion. These are flooding next to the bay. They have their own set of rules that do not pertain to the “bay”. I don’t have to draw a number on the bay. If water was not pumped into diked areas it would be another farm field. If we remove the opinion of the managed area hunters. Where do actual guys that have boat blinds, layout rig, etc stand. No a guy with a jet sled, 3 spinners and 14 Texas rigged decoys.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

population control said:


> When the term bay is brought up. Do we include the managed waterfowl areas. These are not the bay in my opinion. These are flooding next to the bay. They have their own set of rules that do not pertain to the “bay”. I don’t have to draw a number on the bay. If water was not pumped into diked areas it would be another farm field. If we remove the opinion of the managed area hunters. Where do actual guys that have boat blinds, layout rig, etc stand. No a guy with a jet sled, 3 spinners and 14 Texas rigged decoys.


The issue is hunter numbers. Whether you like it or not the managed area hunters on the bay(and other marsh hunters) outnumber the big water guys.


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## WoodyMG (May 29, 2013)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> the big mistake some of you are making is.....using last year as your basis for your thoughts.
> 
> use the last 10 years and shiawassee is absolutely open after the bay is locked up. we have moving water. usually the only thing open yet up on the bay is way offshore...and yes some guys still hunt it....but not a majority by any means. A majority should be included in your vocabulary when your making decisions about a season.


Are you saying that because you’re part of that majority and it benefits you to ignore the majority of diver duck hunters?

And I don’t mean that to be rude. 

Maybe there should just be separate seasons for divers and puddle ducks. Because they’re two different things. It really would be like requiring elk hunters and whitetail hunters to abide by the same guidelines... they’re both deer species after all. 

Honestly from my point of view, it should stay the same. In my experience when people start complaining about the bad parts of something that is 90% good, the changes make it worse. There are pros and cons for each subset of hunters currently and that’s pretty fair if you ask me, because if you go messing around with the zones and a separate diver season gets created and the limit is cut from 6 and the season start dates are pushed back, then there will be a lot of people across the state like me who are very upset because it works perfectly fine the way it is. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

WoodyMG said:


> Are you saying that because you’re part of that majority and it benefits you to ignore the majority of diver duck hunters?
> 
> And I don’t mean that to be rude.
> 
> ...


Diver hunters are the minority though. 

Again, even when you factor only divers Saginaw Bay doesn’t compare to Erie and St. Clair in regards of December hunting. 

The Doob is a big diver hunter in the bay. He loves the bay being in zone 2.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

WoodyMG said:


> Are you saying that because you’re part of that majority and it benefits you to ignore the majority of diver duck hunters?
> 
> And I don’t mean that to be rude.
> 
> ...


first off. i dont disagree. i like the seasons we have now. perfectly fine leaving it alone. 

but...here is what your missing and this is not a diver vs. puddler thing. Its participation and money thing. You need to understand those 2 things before you worry about your divers or i worry about my puddlers. money makes this wheel turn. I love diver hunting...just as much as i like shooting puddlers...but i completely understand my personal preference in what i shoot and timing.....will get trumped by the mechanics behind how our system works. You have to make the most people happy....in this case since divers and puddlers operate under the same umbrella here....we have to make the most of both happy.

that being said. If we were to go to 45 day season...we wouldn't be having this argument as our season would most likely fall within the Non-Freeze window and there wouldn't be complaining (as much). Liberal harvest and dates is whats creating this fiasco...we are living within the fat times as far as duck hunting goes.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

And the overlooked SW is still the poor bastard stepchild covered up in mallards in mid December. <sigh>


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Zorba said:


> That’s just some LE. If you ask others they will tell you there are all ready doing it with fishery rules and bottom lands issues. As for a sea duck season, it’s just not Michigan that’s pushing for that. Problem is there’s not a lot known about these birds. They nest WAY up in the Arctic in remote places. Not much monitoring of them up there. Other thing is, it’s the Great Lake states that are pushing for the season. Southern part of the flyway could care less about them.


Just stating what was said amongst LE at CWAC.


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## population control (Apr 18, 2009)

I’m surprised their against it. It would be easy enforcement. Wait at the ramps of the Great Lakes. Exclude inner Saginaw bay. Sand point to point au gres. 
Fishing boundaries are virtually the same thing in some areas. Maybe there is opposition because of hard to enforce fishing regs boundary’s? Not sure. 

It will up participation also. Guys ask me all time about long tails. If I ever hunted them. People want them trophy birds.


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## Tavor (Sep 10, 2011)

waxico said:


> Replace the Teal season with a Diver season. Teal was 15 days this year.


I dunno Jerry, I loved the bluebill-only season back then, but with reds, cans, and bluebills all under reduced species limits it seems an odd time to specifically target them with an extended season.



craigrh13 said:


> We are a production state. Highly highly doubt it that it will ever happen.


For many years we heard the same thing said about teal. Then voila!, we have a teal season. I guess things don't always stay the same afterall.



population control said:


> It will up participation also. Guys ask me all time about long tails. If I ever hunted them. People want them trophy birds.


Do guys really see longtails as a trophy? I always viewed them as just another duck. I know guys who see them as decidedly second-rate.


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

Tavor said:


> I dunno Jerry, I loved the bluebill-only season back then, but with reds, cans, and bluebills all under reduced species limits it seems an odd time to specifically target them with an extended season.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They said at CWAC last year that they are monitoring the wood duck population and kills because it is currently floating on the high end. I just don’t foresee a wood duck season ever happening here. Sure, anything is possible. I just wouldn’t hold my breath on it.

I actually love the teal season. Decent numbers of teal started showing up about middle august and continued to build from there.


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## waxico (Jan 21, 2008)

If Diver season replaced Teal season, it would only be 2 weeks. I think the diver population could take another 2 weeks, especially since California's season is 107 days.


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## MIfishslayer91 (Dec 24, 2013)

craigrh13 said:


> They said at CWAC last year that they are monitoring the wood duck population and kills because it is currently floating on the high end. I just don’t foresee a wood duck season ever happening here. Sure, anything is possible. I just wouldn’t hold my breath on it.
> 
> I actually love the teal season. Decent numbers of teal started showing up about middle august and continued to build from there.


I really don’t like the sound of an early wood duck season. I would like to see them bump the bag limit on em up to 4 though.


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## grassmaster (Jan 10, 2009)

The 3 bird wood duck limit increase is the best thing to date for Michigan waterfowlers,
4 would be even better yet!


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## Tavor (Sep 10, 2011)

grassmaster said:


> The 3 bird wood duck limit increase is the best thing to date for Michigan waterfowlers,
> 4 would be even better yet!


Hmm. It's been more than 30 years since I shot a wood duck. I thought the best thing was the allowing of a canvasback. Then the allowing of TWO canvasbacks.


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## Brougham (Jan 29, 2010)

Anyone heard of the on-line survey results being published?


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## craigrh13 (Oct 24, 2011)

The surveys will be posted here when it’s time. I’m sure it will be discussed at cwac. Should be interesting. With that being said I can a most guarantee that at a minimum FP and Nqp and surrounding areas will be moved into zone 2. I know the big water guys and the marsh hunters differ on this subject. https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-350-79136_79608_81526---,00.html


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## Tunaman (Apr 17, 2006)

January


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## Fall Flight Punisher (Aug 14, 2008)

Not positive, but For some reason January 19 I thought I read.


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