# Confused about protecting property.



## J-Boy (Oct 5, 2005)

What is the law regarding protecting your personal property from animals?

Case in point: The last 2 years we have planted numerous types of vegetables and about 10 rows of sweet corn, about 25 yards long by 5 yards wide in between the house and a pole barn about 100 yards from the house. The first year the deer at all the cabbage, chewed on tomatoes and beans and tore up the corn so bad that only about 10 stalks out of the whole planting got to the stage they could develop ears. The second year we put an electric fence around the corn, put motion detector water sprayers in strategic places where the deer were entering and we still only got enough corn for perhaps 3 or 4 meals and the vegetables were totally destroyed.

I have had it this year. The corn is stating to come up and I am thinking of shooting the dang deer with my .22 in the butt every evening when they come out so they get the big picture and stop vandalizing our hard work.

We have a right to protect our personal property from people who would steal our corn and vegetables. Why would a deer have more rights that a person?


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

J-Boy said:


> We have a right to protect our personal property from people who would steal our corn and vegetables. Why would a deer have more rights that a person?


When you bought your property you never got a signature from the deer accepting the purchase agreement. They figure you are giving them a peace offering for that house that was put right where they use to bed down.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

J-Boy said:


> What is the law regarding protecting your personal property from animals?
> 
> Case in point: The last 2 years we have planted numerous types of vegetables and about 10 rows of sweet corn, about 25 yards long by 5 yards wide in between the house and a pole barn about 100 yards from the house. The first year the deer at all the cabbage, chewed on tomatoes and beans and tore up the corn so bad that only about 10 stalks out of the whole planting got to the stage they could develop ears. The second year we put an electric fence around the corn, put motion detector water sprayers in strategic places where the deer were entering and we still only got enough corn for perhaps 3 or 4 meals and the vegetables were totally destroyed.
> 
> ...


Are you a farm, or is this your personal little vegetable garden. If it is your garden build a fence around it. As you would not be protected by law. If you did shoot the deer it would be poaching.


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## peaker power (Oct 30, 2004)

You do have the right to protect your property. The state also has the athority to protect the puplic 's, in this case the deer. An eletirc fence will protect a garden if installed and mantained properly.
Needs to be 6-8' tall and placed 4-5' from the veggies. also the wires should be about 18" apart, with the lowest 4-6" of the ground. This keeps Rabbits,*****, and woodchucks out too. Mack sure the fencer has enough power and is grounded properly for the job at hand. Size of wire and length will both have an effect.
Keep debry and weeds/grass off the wires at all times, these will weaken or stop the fence from "zapping" the target problem correctly.
For more help I would suggest talking to the DNR or local farmers/farm stores.
On a side note a 22 in the butt will kill,so this would be taking out of season. IF there are to many deer in your area and they are doing damage to commercial crops a Damage controle permit MAY be availble from the DNR.
Hope this helps save your veggies.


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## J-Boy (Oct 5, 2005)

I called my uncle who is an ex CO with the MI DNR who retired about 20 years ago. If a person takes "reasonable" efforts to protect their personal property from wildlife, you can do what a reasonable person feels is necessary to keep your investment secure. The law applies the concept of "Reasonable Person" to just about all areas of law. So, what would a reasonable person be expected to endure?

This not only applies to deer eating corn, but to rabbits tearing up your cabbage, or fox tearing up your chickens. This is not such a black and white issue from what I can tell. It is up to the local law, or judge to determine what is "reasonable" in your efforts to protect your property. I feel that it is unreasonable to spend perhaps a thousand bucks to but up a 10 foot fence to protect my food source. My uncle also raises vegetables, but not corn, up near Petosky and I asked him what he does with the rabbits that attack his garden? He said "I shoot them." Now mind you my uncle is about 80 now, an ex marine from WW2, one of the toughest CO's to ever work the job (was shot twice on duty) and is definitely old school. But the man is just right as rain I think on this issue I think. If wild game is so plentiful that it is overrunning your rights as a taxpayer you need to take care of the problem.

I am not a farm by a long shot. But I do have small crops, horses and a chicken coop. Outside the chicken coop is a open area protected from the weather in which I keep feed bags. I walked out there one day and there was 4 wild turkeys tearing up the chicken feed after they punched holes in the bags. It is not unusual to see as many as 15-20 wild turkeys roosting on the split rail fence by the barn in the evening.

I guess if you are a farmer, and you have huge acreage of corn, you can get permits to do what is needed. I don't know about the regular home owner with 7 acres in the wild who raises food to supplement the grocery bill. I am sure I couldn't get a permit, but then again, why should an excessive amount of deer tearing up my food turn me into a criminal if I took care of the problem? I can see some real diverse positions being taken on this, but my feeling is it is my land, I took reasonable efforts to keep them out the last two years, and this year it is my turn to send them a message in the buttocks.

I would love to hear what the "new age" CO's have to say on this.


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## outdoor_m_i_k_e (Feb 3, 2005)

not only may it be illegal to shoot the deer in the rear with a 22, but also i know if i was hunting the area you live and i legally shot a deer that you had shot and not killed, i would be pretty mad if i skinned ouit the deer and half the hind quarter was ruined by a 22. i understand that you are mad abotu this but think a little bit about it though. there are plenty of peopel who keep deer out of their gardens every year, there are other ways besides shooting them. and its not liek its a 500 acre crop field where its a lot harder to keep them out, its just a garden. i would go about electric fences, but also, ***** can do somed heavy damage on corn and crops too, so if you shot every deer that came by, your crops could still end up ruined. just something to think about


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## J-Boy (Oct 5, 2005)

peaker power said:


> You do have the right to protect your property. The state also has the athority to protect the puplic 's, in this case the deer. An eletirc fence will protect a garden if installed and mantained properly.
> Needs to be 6-8' tall and placed 4-5' from the veggies. also the wires should be about 18" apart, with the lowest 4-6" of the ground. This keeps Rabbits,*****, and woodchucks out too. Mack sure the fencer has enough power and is grounded properly for the job at hand. Size of wire and length will both have an effect.
> Keep debry and weeds/grass off the wires at all times, these will weaken or stop the fence from "zapping" the target problem correctly.
> For more help I would suggest talking to the DNR or local farmers/farm stores.
> ...


I will have to see about the permit thing.. thanks.. post makes sense


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## J-Boy (Oct 5, 2005)

outdoor_m_i_k_e said:



> not only may it be illegal to shoot the deer in the rear with a 22, but also i know if i was hunting the area you live and i legally shot a deer that you had shot and not killed, i would be pretty mad if i skinned ouit the deer and half the hind quarter was ruined by a 22. i understand that you are mad abotu this but think a little bit about it though. there are plenty of peopel who keep deer out of their gardens every year, there are other ways besides shooting them. and its not liek its a 500 acre crop field where its a lot harder to keep them out, its just a garden. i would go about electric fences, but also, ***** can do somed heavy damage on corn and crops too, so if you shot every deer that came by, your crops could still end up ruined. just something to think about


Agree, maybe I should just use one of those .22 loads with tiny BB's in them? The dang deer need to learn to fear the area and not think it is a feed station.


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## Blueump (Aug 20, 2005)

J-Boy said:


> Agree, maybe I should just use one of those .22 loads with tiny BB's in them? The dang deer need to learn to fear the area and not think it is a feed station.


Or the owner of the garden needs to learn how to put up a fence!


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## outdoor_m_i_k_e (Feb 3, 2005)

i would personally just go with the electric fence. . like someone else stated make sure its strong enough and you have enough of it to put a few different heights. another thing that a buddy used is kids, lol, send them out runnin around, only thing is a) shooting them could cause damage to the deer and possibly kill them, and b) you wont be able to watch them 24 hrs a day especially at night. . but i would talk to the DNR and bug them and possibly be able to get a permit, especially if you have been trying several methods short of shooting them. but we plant corn every year and i tell ya what, ***** will do more damage than a deer! they are horrible, and hard to get rid of!


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## J-Boy (Oct 5, 2005)

outdoor_m_i_k_e said:


> i would personally just go with the electric fence. . like someone else stated make sure its strong enough and you have enough of it to put a few different heights. another thing that a buddy used is kids, lol, send them out runnin around, only thing is a) shooting them could cause damage to the deer and possibly kill them, and b) you wont be able to watch them 24 hrs a day especially at night. . but i would talk to the DNR and bug them and possibly be able to get a permit, especially if you have been trying several methods short of shooting them. but we plant corn every year and i tell ya what, ***** will do more damage than a deer! they are horrible, and hard to get rid of!


To tell the truth, I am really not in the mood to do a Gitmo type fencing arrangement. The area is just too big and I don't want to spend that much more money. There has to be a way to scare them off other than shooting them in the butt, just can't think of one.

Oh, and ***** are not a problem. For some reason we don't have them. Nothing but a runway of deer tracks leading up to and into the garden. Every night you can turn the back light on and see those reflective eyes staring you down.


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## DartonShooter (Oct 26, 2001)

A guy I work with was having a terrible problem with deer in his garden - he called them _state goats_. He tried soap in the garden, hair from the barber shop and even tied his dog up out there. Nothing worked. Finally he ran a strand of electric fence 4 inches off the ground. It has kept the deer out for four years now. His theory is the deer don't really see the single strand so low to the ground, but hit it with their feet as they approach, get the shock , then leave. Sounds too simple to work, but like I said, it's been four years now with no deer damage.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

Your talking about a garden that is 15 ft wide and 75 feet long or 1,125 square feet. You will need approximately 800 ft of electric fence. You will need 36 fence stakes, one solar powered electric fence box. All of this can be picked up at your local Tractor Supply Store, or simillar store. The most expensive thing would be the power box. You will have about 500 dollars wrapped up into protecting your garden this way.

Now if you started shooting deer now with no fence you would be found guilty of poaching plain and simple. You will not be able to get a permit from the dnr for your crop. As you are using this garden for personal use. 

Now to control the deer, start hunting them more. Heck if you tag out and they are still populated call me I will come out and thin the herd for you.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

J-Boy said:


> Now mind you my uncle is about 80 now, an ex marine from WW2, one of the toughest CO's to ever work the job (was shot twice on duty) and is definitely old school.


Really, shot twice as a CO? Who is this retired CO's name because in the over 100 year history of CO's I know of NO CO, active or retired, "new age" or old school that was shot twice.

Put up a fence, contact Wildlife Division and they can give you the names of some sprays that deer don't like but won't hurt the garden. If you take it upon yourself and shoot deer without a permit then you are poaching.


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## slowpoke (Jan 30, 2001)

I cut down trees off my land for post, free, got some snow fence and made my fence 8 ' high. That work and it didn't cost me much.


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## Bowslayer (Aug 29, 2005)

Where abouts do you live? Would you be interested in allowing someone to hunt there during the season to help thin the herd? That's how I got the land that I hunt now, the deer are constanty in the gardens, and the owner lets me hunt them. If you're close enough to me I'd be more than happy to help you out, legally of course!


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## J-Boy (Oct 5, 2005)

These deer are predictable and set in their ways. They enter from the north, about 2 hours before dark, along the edge of a stand of Norway pines and an open field. When they get to the property line there is an old split rail fence with 2 rails. The bottom rail is only about 18 inches off the ground, and the upper rail is maybe 3 feet high. I constantly have to stand the fence back up because they are too lazy to jump over the 3 foot high section. I have seen them get on their knees and scoot under the low rail and their back pushes the post up out of the hole and tips the fence over.

The corn and garden is in part of the horse corral that I shut off and it has electric fencing. I restaked the corn/garden area with 3 electrified wires, instead of 2, and they jump over the highest one which is about 4 feet. But they won't jump over the 3 foot split rail fence? 

I have tried all the sprays, tried home remedies like laying out hair and used cat litter on the ground. I don't want to put up some huge eye sore 8 feet high that takes away from the beauty of the property.

Again I ask as a point of discussion here and not to get anyone ticked off "What is expected of a reasonable person?" Laws are written for a purpose and the term "reasonable person" surely applies here. Why should I not be able to protect my food source from animals in a reasonable manner? I am not a lawyer, but I think I have the right to protect my property from damage after taking reasonable measures to combat the situation. Dont get me wrong, I surely dont want to have to test my rights in court after being arrested for poaching, but I dont see this as poaching at all. Poaching to me is purposefully setting out to take game. My intentions and purpose are not to poach. My intentions are to protect my property. Yeah, throw the book at me, but that is how I feel about his issue


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## sullyxlh (Oct 28, 2004)

> Poaching to me is purposefully setting out to take game


wrong answer,poaching is the unlawful taking of game no matter how much you distort it to suit yourself.

For all the BS you got into it,you could have built a greenhouse,
goto the local veg stand and buy your stuff and spend the rest of your time not worrying so much about it.
It's like your putting a steak in front of a dog and than wantin to shoot it cause he ate it,when he's only doing what instinct calls,
not tryin to ruffle your feathers,but it sounds like Caddyshack over your way
if you really feel the need to poach em,click on the link in my signature and be sure to fill it out completely before you do.....


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## res (Nov 22, 2006)

J-Boy said:


> My intentions and purpose are not to poach. My intentions are to protect my property. Yeah, throw the book at me, but that is how I feel about his issue


Well, I guess you should protect your property then. Just be carefull about telling anyone since there are quite a few like me that would be very willing to file a RAP report and get a $1000 for our efforts. Yes, deer are destructive but even farmers as has been stated must receive a permit to remove some deer. Any farmer can also tell you that even they are expected to loose some crops to the animals. They have to meet criteria before permits are issued. A simple fence fixes your problem. There is also quite a difference in the law between your veggies and your livestock. Rick


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

J-Boy said:


> Again I ask as a point of discussion here and not to get anyone ticked off "What is expected of a reasonable person?" Laws are written for a purpose and the term "reasonable person" surely applies here. Why should I not be able to protect my food source from animals in a reasonable manner? I am not a lawyer, but I think I have the right to protect my property from damage after taking reasonable measures to combat the situation. Dont get me wrong, I surely dont want to have to test my rights in court after being arrested for poaching, but I dont see this as poaching at all. Poaching to me is purposefully setting out to take game. My intentions and purpose are not to poach. My intentions are to protect my property. Yeah, throw the book at me, but that is how I feel about his issue


I agree wholeheartedly with sullyxlh. Laws are written for a purpose and when they're about protecting your property they don't include animals eating your garden. If they did, you would be eligable for a DMAP permit. There are no legal provisions for protecting your property when that property is a garden and the threat is deer. Comparing your garden to a farm crop is apples and oranges for reasons I don't think I have to go into. There is no reasonable justification for taking a deer out of season simply because they are eating a garden. Quite frankly, it's absolutely irresponsible and unexcuseable to suggest putting a 22 LR in the rear of a deer with the intent to purposely injure and put that animal through that pain and suffering. Interpret it as you may, the bottom line is there is nothing you can do outside of putting up a fence or trying some other legal forms of deterring them. If you hunt, get some antlerless permits during the normal seasons and take a few out, if you don't, invite some friends over. It does appear you are fishing for justification to do something illegal to which I strongly suggest you don't.


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## J-Boy (Oct 5, 2005)

My point is not about poaching. My point is about how to best protect my personal property. The deer up here are out of control. The neighbor has about 20 apple trees. He is lucky if the deer only eat 1/2 of them before it is time to harvest them. I guess the subject of my post is "At what point do deer have more rights than man?" Look, I was raised hunting and fishing. I respect nature and love the outdoors. But the bottom line for me is I hunt and fish for food. It tickles me pink to throw $400 worth of steaks and roasts in the freezer. I don't see deer as some holy mantra to pay homage to. I know there is no solution to my problem because I am not going to get a permit to thin the herd. I have no desire to thin the herd. Perhaps stinging a deer in the butt with a .22 is thoughtless and wrong. OK, I will admit that... But seriously there has to be some solution other than erecting an 8-10 foot fence.

By the time Oct rolls around the deer are back in the woods not to be seen. I agree with the example of putting a steak in front of a dog and expecting him not to eat it. I agree with getting more permits to take deer during the hunting season. But trust me, you would need to whack about 25 of those deer to even put a dent in the local herd. And once more to repeat what I have said, why don't I have some rights to protect a food source without going to extraordinary lengths? I know I am not going to get any laws changed or win any friends here, but it ticks me off that deer have more rights than I do.


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## J-Boy (Oct 5, 2005)

Bowslayer said:


> Where abouts do you live? Would you be interested in allowing someone to hunt there during the season to help thin the herd? That's how I got the land that I hunt now, the deer are constanty in the gardens, and the owner lets me hunt them. If you're close enough to me I'd be more than happy to help you out, legally of course!


Just come to anywhere in the Leelanau Peninsula. We are overrun with deer. I drove over to Cedar the other day, and right next to the road in broad daylight, on the sunny side of a hill about 40 yards from the highway were 4 or 5 deer bedded down at 11am. I stopped the car and was looking for horns and they just looked at me like "What the ?" and didn't move an inch. Even the turkey up here are nuts. I live on a dirt road, almost a 2-track, and there will be 6-10 Tom's standing in the road and I almost have to hit them to get them to move, and when they do move they just stand at the side of the road. I could put a rubber band on my finger and shoot them. The wild game up here have absolutely no fear of man at all. While on one hand that is great, on the other hand it is a conundrum. 

If any of you guys are seriously making plans for this fall you would be smart to scout out Benzie County and north in the Leelanau Pennisula.


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## outdoor_m_i_k_e (Feb 3, 2005)

another idea, go 50 yards away when you plant your garden and plant a plot of corn just for the deer, we do this every year. it may not completely stop them from your garden eating, but if they have an easy opportunity to get corn without fences or spray or anything like that.. . it will deter them from eating out of your garden a lot more...just another option to look at, and it would be an inexpensive fix,


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## J-Boy (Oct 5, 2005)

outdoor_m_i_k_e said:


> another idea, go 50 yards away when you plant your garden and plant a plot of corn just for the deer, we do this every year. it may not completely stop them from your garden eating, but if they have an easy opportunity to get corn without fences or spray or anything like that.. . it will deter them from eating out of your garden a lot more...just another option to look at, and it would be an inexpensive fix,


Hey, that's not a bad idea!!!! A peace offering... Not a fix for this year, but a good one...


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## outdoor_m_i_k_e (Feb 3, 2005)

the deer where we live are always in the front yard and back yard and by the vehicles and when the corn comes up, they tend to stay there. . its a place for soem small protaction(only an acre or so) plus its a food source for them. . you dont even need that much, but you can mess around different years with how much you plant, its an inexpensive way, plus its good for the game, not only deer. . partridge, pheasants, turkey. etc. . and if you continue to use an electric fence/deer repellent for your garden, they will usually see this as an opportunity to take the easy meal instead of working for the food. we leave the corn up JUSt for the animals, and then that way if you did hunt the deer, they will get used to he corn just liek your garden, and you will know where to find them. . we dont shoot any of the deer at our place simply because they are "pets" to us, but i will on occasion sit out to video tape the pups playing around, and its a lot of fun. 

I understand how frustrating it is, but you never know, thats why you ask, to get ideas from us, and maybe they will work, that plus if the corn idea works for you, it will be more enjoyable watching the deer because they wont be so much as a pain in the @$$!


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## Danatodd99 (Dec 26, 2001)

Many years ago I had a neighbors dog that knocked over our garbage cans repeatedly, tore open the bags and spread trash all over the yard.
I had contacted the owner of the dog and suggested that he keep his dog leashed sue to the fact that it was regularly in my yard causing problems.
I called the local dog officer and got absolutely no help whatsoever.
I was 16 - 17 at the time, Obviously, I didn't want to shoot and kill the dog but I was sick and tired of picking up trash everyday. I loaded 2 shotshells with rock salt and the next time I saw the dog spreading trash in my yard I let him have both barrels. I never saw him in my yard ever again, I saw him running loose else where, just not in my yard.
Thinking back on it now it probably wasn't the smartest thing to do.
You, however may want to try loading some blanks and fire them when you see the deer around. You may just make them nocturnal though.
Good luck


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## Ferg (Dec 17, 2002)

J-Boy said:


> These deer are predictable and set in their ways. They enter from the north, about 2 hours before dark, along the edge of a stand of Norway pines and an open field. When they get to the property line there is an old split rail fence with 2 rails. The bottom rail is only about 18 inches off the ground, and the upper rail is maybe 3 feet high. I constantly have to stand the fence back up because they are too lazy to jump over the 3 foot high section. I have seen them get on their knees and scoot under the low rail and their back pushes the post up out of the hole and tips the fence over.
> 
> The corn and garden is in part of the horse corral that I shut off and it has electric fencing. I restaked the corn/garden area with 3 electrified wires, instead of 2, and they jump over the highest one which is about 4 feet. But they won't jump over the 3 foot split rail fence?
> 
> ...



Move back to the city and grow your little garden on your patio - your the one that moved into the deer's/animials back yard and now you want to kill them all for doing what they have been doing for eons?????

Get a hold of yoursellf - shooting deer out of season and without a lic IS POACHING - 

Also I'd like for you to answer Ray's question - who is this famous CO that you know that has been shot TWICE in Michigan?????

There is absolutly no record of that in the MDNR history books - so how much of this entire thread is close to the truth? and how much is so much pot stirring?????  

ferg....


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## M1Garand (Apr 12, 2006)

J-Boy said:


> I guess the subject of my post is "At what point do deer have more rights than man?"
> 
> By the time Oct rolls around the deer are back in the woods not to be seen. I agree with the example of putting a steak in front of a dog and expecting him not to eat it. I agree with getting more permits to take deer during the hunting season. But trust me, you would need to whack about 25 of those deer to even put a dent in the local herd. And once more to repeat what I have said, why don't I have some rights to protect a food source without going to extraordinary lengths? I know I am not going to get any laws changed or win any friends here, but it ticks me off that deer have more rights than I do.


You don't have the rights in this instance because it is a garden, not a farm with crops. Even if you did, with a DMA permit, they are valid only during an open season for the taking of deer as established by this order and only upon the land for which issued and adjacent private property. Not to mention the fact they are valid only for antlerless deer and this time of year does are fawning..not a pleasant thought to leave young fawns out there to die because their mother was shot. I suggest trying this stuff as we've had good results with white cedar during the winter:

Planskydd


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## jeremy L (Sep 19, 2002)

As long as the fence is around 6 feet high, the deer seem to give up on jumping to get in. We had to fence in our garden about 4 years ago. THe first year we put up "chicken wire fencing" that was around 4 feet high. There were LESS deer in the garden, but still enough jumped the fence to ruin a lot of our crop. 
Next year we took nylon rope and strung it from post to post about the fence itself, thus making it around 5 feet high. This kept the deer out completely, but raccoon got in under the fence and ruined most of the corn. Completely incasing the bottom of the fence with dirt solved this.
Last year there were 3 deer that started to jump the fence. A couple times they would clip the rope, sending the deep tumbling over the fence and twice knocking over parts of it. They mostly ate the peas, giving us our first good corn crop in years. 
This year another two strands of rope has made the fence 6 feet high and even with deer constently around the outside of the garden, they have yet to even try and make it in. 
The cost of the rope,1100 feet of it, was 10 dollars. Posts are only 5 dollars a piece from TSC and you really don't need a ton if you make sure the fence is tight enough. I'm sure you could just use the rope to make the lower section of fence instead of using chicken wire. 
This is a much better idea then shooting at deer out of season, regardless of what "non lethal" means you use. I know it wouldn't look to good if someone seen you aiming a .22 at a deer in june even if it was only BBs.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Question; if an eagle was going after your chickens do you feel you would have the right to shoot it? Of course not, or should I say, I hope not. Bottom line is the same as my other post. "Put up a fence, contact Wildlife Division and they can give you the names of some sprays that deer don't like but won't hurt the garden. If you take it upon yourself and shoot deer without a permit then you are poaching." They might even be able to suggest a few other things, that is what a reasonable person would/should do to start with. That way you are not destroying someone else's property - deer.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I have no idea what other advice can be given here but I think this one has been beat up enough. - Closed


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