# Cover Dog Pointer or Cover Dog Setter



## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Do a search for a thread on here a week or so ago I thought we decidied that a person could not do both.
> So my advice would be to buy a Setter pup and a Pointer pup from top coverdog breeding and let Bruce Minard @ Hifive kennels start them both. Leave them both on the truck through their derby seasons to see which is better at the game.
> At that point leave the better trial dog with Bruce for 6 or 7 more years and rack up a pile of Championships. Do not bring the dog home to hunt it as you will only miss trials held during the Fall which can hurt the dogs chances for any year end points type titles like dog of the year, etc...
> Bring the other dog home (likely finished by now) take it out grouse hunting and kill a pile of grouse over finished class dog work.


Scott,

Sorry, I just know waaaaay to many examples to go along with the consensus that you cant do both with the same dog or that they are different dogs. I dont grouse trial much and prefer to keep my dogs in a little closer than grouse trial dogs when I am in the woods. However, I know several grouse trailers who kill LOTS of birds and they only shoot pointed birds. Some of them guide grouse hunts. Steve Grossmans who is a well known grouse guide has some dogs are not much shorter than trial dogs. With populations as they are today Dave TerHaar gets 20-40 pointed/day when he is hunting. Most of his time in the woods is training. Ben McKeans who contributes here has dogs that run big enough to trial in Championships and probably produces 5 or more pointed birds/hour. The list goes on and on.

This might fall more into opinion but I think there is a difference with Pointers vs Setters. I often hear the analogy that with Setters its like pushing a role and with Pointers you are trying to hold on to the rope. In other words, the Setters are often pushed to run biggert. Most of us teach them to run bigger with a whistle command. Probably two-thirds of the Setters I have trialed were(are) considerably shorter when I had a shotgun in my hand. IMO, when speaking of Setters, with the best ones the same dog can be developed to run big enough to trial or could be developed to be a medium range (100-150) yard hunting dog. The really good ones, developed the right way can be trained and handled in such a way that they are reasonably comfortable hunting dogs or pushed big enough on command to trial. 

Drifter Saver, you are absolutely correct. Cover dog trials have historically had very little influence on Pointer breeding but I am starting to hear about cover dog pointers. Personally, I think the Pointer guys have done just fine with their previous breeding practices. Only us Setter nuts think a cover dog is a special breed. I am one of those nuts Setter people but after evaluating a whole lot of Setters in the woods from a lot of different lines, I side with the Pointer guys way of thinking.

BTW, if Jay or Ben see this they have hunted with lots of trial dogs and can give their own first hand accounts.

SRB


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

I love my setters, but I'd go with a pointer. Far less heat tolerance issues, no comparison in terms of stamina, superior bird finding ability, head and shoulders above from a style and conformation perspective, and overall better range for trialing. Whenever the setter breeders want to tweek a little improvement into the breed they sneak in some pointer blood.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

kek25 said:


> I love my setters, but I'd go with a pointer. Far less heat tolerance issues, no comparison in terms of stamina, superior bird finding ability, head and shoulders above from a style and conformation perspective, and overall better range for trialing. Whenever the setter breeders want to tweek a little improvement into the breed they sneak in some pointer blood.


lol I can't believe a setter guy would admit that pointers work their way into setters from time to time. lol. refreshing someone admits it. and yes it's not only done in setters


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## muckdog (Mar 13, 2006)

chewy said:


> you are wrong and correct. no woods
> 
> has horseback championships and nstra wins
> http://www.petitiononline.com/BFTHOF/petition.html
> ...


Ok but the 32 championships he spoke of are NSTRA championships...


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

muckdog said:


> Ok but the 32 championships he spoke of are NSTRA championships...


yes but it's also important to note he has AF wins as well as nstra. 

there are some people who seem to think nstra dogs can't win in AF events. wch


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

kek25 said:


> I love my setters, but I'd go with a pointer. Far less heat tolerance issues, no comparison in terms of stamina, superior bird finding ability, head and shoulders above from a style and conformation perspective, and overall better range for trialing. Whenever the setter breeders want to tweek a little improvement into the breed they sneak in some pointer blood.


Keith,

Competition and the desire competitors have to succeed does a VERY good job of identifying the most competitive animals. The people who are most knowledgeable on what it takes to compete will definitely gravitate to the animals that give them the best chance to win. That's why 90% of the entries in AA trials are Pointers. So, we should ask ourselves why Setters represent 70% of the entries in cover dog trials. This is not by accident. Also, on the topic of the most knowledgeable gravitating to the right animal for the job, the vast majority of grouse guides in Minnesota have Setters, at least the really well known ones that have a significant following. If Pointers were superior grouse dogs you can bet you a** that they would be the predominant choice among the guides. Call Steve Grossman or Bill Heig. I dont know any grouse guides in Michigan. Maybe its different there but there. I dont know.

In general you are correct that Pointers have better stamina but be careful about using such a wide brush. Some of us have paid attention to the physical capabilities. I have been very forthright in saying we are trying to breed dogs with a Pointers physical capabilities and the biddability and trainability of the best Setters. So, I acknowledge this general trend but there are a few cover dog Pointers in Minnesota and Wisconsin (IE Bret Edstrom, Rod Lein, Neil Boos) you are welcome to call and I am very confident none of them would say our dogs are at a disadvantage to pointers where stamina or any other attribute other than raw natural range is concerned.

You are welcome to your opinion on style but there are a whole lot of us who not agree with that statement. 

There was actually an article in the field a few years ago where bird finding was tracked in cover dog trials over the course of something like 500 braces. I dont remember the exact numbers. Maybe someone can come up with that article. I do remember that the Setters out birded the Pointers and my recollection is that it was around a 6:4 ratio. Thats the only empirical evidence I can provide. I would add that I have been on the ground with a great many pointers both hunting and in trials and have never been at a disadvantage where quantity of finds is concerned.

The last statement about breeding to Pointers is simply wrong. Has it ever happened, sure. I actually would not care if it were done. As a matter of fact, I wish it was more feasible but done right it could probably be of benefit. I even looked into doing it. The reality is that on a very small portion of the resulting offspring have hair and it would take 3-4 generations to reliably produce hair. Breeders are not going to go through that effort and cost. Its just not practical. You would have to hope that one pup out of the litter turned out to be a good dog. If you were being at all selective it would probably take 4-6 litters to get one suitable dog for breeding. I should also add that I know the vast majority of what I will call the standard field type Setter breeders of any size in this country. Over the course of 30 years of breeding this subject has come up on several occasions. This practice has been a very rare occurrence. 

SRB


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Oops; forgot the smiley face in my last post.:lol:

Just shaking the tree with some common "observations" that one hears on the difference between the 2 breeds. Thought Wormdunker would be the first to jump into my &%$*.

I do wish that I'd see more consistency in setters when it comes to heat tolerance, stamina, and early maturity.

Scott, I don't have any proof I can specifically point to (well I do, but I won't put it out on a public bulletin board), but I think mixing in some pointer blood to get a specific trait does intentionally occur out there once in a while. If so, I don't see anything wrong with that as long as the trait is not preserved at the risk of diluting the other traits of the receiving breed. And yes, I agree that it is a time consuming process.

Where does the 70% cover dog trial setter entry figure come from?


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

kek25 said:


> Oops; forgot the smiley face in my last post.:lol:
> 
> 
> Just shaking the tree with some common "observations" that one hears on the difference between the 2 breeds. Thought Wormdunker would be the first to jump into my &%$*.
> ...


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

First of all, Keith, I still don't like you.:lol:

In the woods I would say Pointers and Setters can both do it. If I was going to look at a setter pup right now I would consider a litter out of Ridge Creek Cody X Satin From Silk. Satin from silk is the very best house dog I have ever seen. You would never guess she was a trial dog. She gets in the woods or prairie and can flat out run and find birds. She was the WI cover dog Ch. in 2009 and did it at age three. I had a blast over her this fall. Cody is making a name for himself in AF trials and has sort of become the second coming of Jesus in the setter world. Wink Wink

My advice would also be, Go see the parents of the next pup you buy. There is soo much chat about certain dogs being great and I have gone to see them only to find out I don't like the way the look or the way they run etc.. Also look at some of the pups the parents are throwing. Certain dogs throw odd sized dogs, weak rear quarters, small brains or possibly a dream dog. You can learn a lot from what you see from the pups that already exist. 

That said Fritz, I think the Trial dogs you know best come from Bruce. You could probably find a dog that you know about that would fit the bill to the nuts from his Kennel and feel pretty darn good about it. I have seen them and I like what he has. 

No Mrs. Backwoods I don't want one, I am a setter guy.


BBMc


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> Scott,
> 
> Sorry, I just know waaaaay to many examples to go along with the consensus that you can&#8217;t do both with the same dog or that they are different dogs. \
> SRB


 You gave two examples and I cannot recall the Grossman name attached to any coverdog champions in the _Field_ lately so that leaves Terharr. One guy doing it. One exception to the rule.
I've stepped away from the trial side of things since September so maybe there are other examples recently , east coast guys, whomever.
I was giving my opinion on how I thought a new guy should attack the situation with a chance at being GREAT on both sides not just adequate or average at both.

RE: setters
I would say the majority (by a wide margin) of the real hardcore grouse killers I know are running Setters. For whatever that's worth.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

chewy said:


> yes but it's also important to note he has AF wins as well as nstra.
> there are some people who seem to think nstra dogs can't win in AF events. wch


Were those AF horseback wins in Brittany-specific trials? I get the Field and have never seen a brit place in an AF all-breed horseback trial.



Scott Berg said:


> That's why 90% of the entries in AA trials are Pointers. So, we should ask ourselves why Setters represent 70% of the entries in cover dog trials. This is not by accident. Also, on the topic of the most knowledgeable gravitating to the right animal for the job, the vast majority of grouse guides in Minnesota have Setters, at least the really well known ones that have a significant following. If Pointers were superior grouse dogs you can bet you a** that they would be the predominant choice among the guides.


Keith, before I reply to Scott, I consider you a bud, but even though I'm (mostly) a pointer guy, I have to respectfully disagree with most of your observations on setters; the good ones I've seen are amazingly classy, formidable animals in every measure of a bird dog.

That said, I still have to give my shameless pointer plug!:lol:

Scott, in my short 3-4 years hanging around coverdog trials one thing that I've noticed is that many of the died-in-the wool setter owners are damn-near religious in their zeal for the breed. I think that this may distort some of the empirical facts/percentages given and may even have a mild positive effect on the breed's trial success in the woods (even if unintentional). 

Speaking of trial success in the woods, I have no solid evidence to support this, but it seems as though setters generally win more on a dog-by-dog, percentage basis than pointers in the smaller weekend trials. However, that clear dominance seems to erode somewhat in the championships--despite being severely out-numbered, the pointers manage to grab a piece of a good number (maybe even the majority some years?) of coverdog championships. It may have been an anomaly, but in 2008, 5 of the top 10 dogs in the Foster Award were pointers--given the ratio of pointers to setters, it should never even be close to that. This year is shaping-up OK for the pointers as well.

I've heard a few people swear up and down that pointers have only recently become successful in the coverdog world--totally untrue.
I looked at the first 10 years of the Grand National Grouse Championship (1943-1953) and discovered that pointers won the crown 4 times, matching the shags (the CH was withheld 2 years).

Fritz, you're never going to get a clear, unbiased answer over the Internet-- I'd have your friend speak to some or all of the local multi-breed coverdog pros like Bruce, Vance and Scott Chaffee.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> You gave two examples and I cannot recall the Grossman name attached to any coverdog champions in the _Field_ lately so that leaves Terharr. One guy doing it. One exception to the rule.
> I've stepped away from the trial side of things since September so maybe there are other examples recently , east coast guys, whomever.
> I was giving my opinion on how I thought a new guy should attack the situation with a chance at being GREAT on both sides not just adequate or average at both.
> 
> ...


Scott,

Vance had that dog Emmlous AppleJack that was a 2x RU Champ and he is now being used as a guide dog in Wisconsin. I worked behind that dog as did a few of my buddies and they all said they could kill a pile of grouse over that dog. Again, I agree with you i dont think most dogs can do both but , there are a few special dogs out there that can do it both.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

2ESRGR8 said:


> You gave two examples and I cannot recall the Grossman name attached to any coverdog champions in the _Field_ lately so that leaves Terharr. One guy doing it. One exception to the rule.
> I've stepped away from the trial side of things since September so maybe there are other examples recently , east coast guys, whomever.
> I was giving my opinion on how I thought a new guy should attack the situation with a chance at being GREAT on both sides not just adequate or average at both.
> 
> ...


Now, winning a championship is no easy task. If you said competitive dogs at trials who are hunted.. I could name nearly every one who trials in MN.

Off the top off my head here are the guys with champions that hunt the crap out of their dogs.

Dave Moore 2010 R19 CH. and RU Im Blue Gert (SF) and Seattle Slew (PM)
Greg Gress 2009 CH. WI Satin from Silk SF
LLoyd Murray What ever dog he is using
Rod Lien 2009 R19 RU and CH Lucy and Bell Both (PF)
Mickey Fancher 2009 MN RU with Wintergreen Cody (SM)
Mickey Fancher 2008 MN CH with Wintergreen Max (SM)
Jerry Kolter Houston's Belle (SF)
http://northwoodsbirddogs.com/fieldtrials.shtml

Ben


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

FindTheBird said:


> Were those AF horseback wins in Brittany-specific trials? I get the Field and have never seen a brit place in an AF all-breed horseback trial.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am going to assume that because the Brits have an AF association that it's a Brit event. I don't think that if it's an open or closed event matters in the Brittany world they fill their trials full and it's still an accomplishmnent. 

of course a Brit will never run in a pointer setter shorthair event. they aren't built the same and wouldn't compete run wise. theirbird finding ability is excellent though.


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

For me I could only have a setter. In our house they are house dog first trial dog second and hunting dog last. Pointers are Hunting dogs first trial dog sescond then just throw in the pen feed & water then there go to again. If you could teach them to drive the truck they would need us at all!!! You buy a pointer with a Elhew or Miller prefex it's at least 2000.00 with no garantee it will hunt let alone win trials. 2000.00 will buy you many dogs in setterville. I just looked up the First 50 years of the Grand National Grouse Ch. The first winner 1943 Caviar pointer from then to 1991 13 pointers 29 setters 4 titles with held.


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## muckdog (Mar 13, 2006)

Worm Dunker said:


> For me I could only have a setter. In our house they are house dog first trial dog second and hunting dog last. Pointers are Hunting dogs first trial dog sescond then just throw in the pen feed & water then there go to again. If you could teach them to drive the truck they would need us at all!!! You buy a pointer with a Elhew or Miller prefex it's at least 2000.00 with no garantee it will hunt let alone win trials. 2000.00 will buy you many dogs in setterville. I just looked up the First 50 years of the Grand National Grouse Ch. The first winner 1943 Caviar pointer from then to 1991 13 pointers 29 setters 4 titles with held.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Ryan Frame has a bunch of videos of champion trial dogs hunting in Michigan and other states. I viewed them while I was at Dave Hughe's kennel a few years ago dropping off a dog. I was hoping Ryan would combine all the videos into a series of discs and sell them. Anyone who thinks trial dogs aren't hunted needs to see videos like that. Watching them you get the feeling that the hunting is very relaxed and almost effortless by both the dogs and the hunters, yet a bunch of birds are pointed yielding excellent shot opportunities. They show what a great grouse dog looks like and provide excellent examples for comparison to the dogs we hunt over, if someone was so inclined to seek out such comparisons. I understand this may not be important to a lot of hunters, but if someone was interested in seeing how they're dog(s) stack up against what are considered the "best" dogs out there as determined through competitive venues, such videos would be a good starting point. A dog can be both hunted and trialed, but as Grush pointed out, it takes money and time. I just can't seem to juggle as much trialing into my schedule as I'd like, so I'm a fair weather participant. 

As far as the original question, the guy needs to go to a bunch of trials at Gladwin and watch a bunch of dogs run, then make his decision as to what breed he prefers.


And Ben, I hate you (and your *little* dog) too. :lol:

Mike, I'm glad you consider me your bud; you're obviously an intelligent man. But I just can't be associated with individuals who make the poor choice to own those good-for-nothing skinheads. :lol::lol:


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Mike,

I agree with everything you said. Including Pointers have been running in the woods forever. I reason I calculated the percentage in the first place was to determine just how well they are doing on a per entry basis.

The Pointer guys, GSP guys, Britt guys, and every other "guys" are fanatical about there breed. But you might be right that the Setter guys take the cake. If I were to have another breed it would be a Pointer. I started with GSPs and like the modern version of the GSP and could go that route too. 

I made the statement "that there is a reason for 70% Setter entries" for a very specific reason. Mike, you are purely focused on the trial stats and you are correct about them. However, A lot of grouse trial guys are looking for a hard core hunting dog, trial dog, companion combination and the people matching that profile often go with a Setter. That's why I said "there is a reason for that". Ben's list has a few examples. He just listed recent champions but the list that fits that profile is long.

Worm Dunker, the statement about Elhew or Miller prefixs bringing $2,000 is absolutley rediculous. The vast majority of them are about the same price as a good Setter. It's this kind of bunk that perpetuates a bid image of us Setter folk. And, why are those prefixs even relevent. Bruce Minard sells Pointers of phenominal breeding for a fraction of what you quoted. 

SRB


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Scott, in my short 3-4 years hanging around coverdog trials one thing that I've noticed is that many of the died-in-the wool setter owners are damn-near religious in their zeal for the breed. I think that this may distort some of the empirical facts/percentages given and may even have a mild positive effect on the breed's trial success in the woods (even if unintentional). 


:lol::lol: That is funny but oh so true.I see the exact same thing in our format also. I always kid my setter fans that they belong to a cult.
Give them a choice between owning a national champion pointer, GSP,or Brit or owning a poor performing setter, they will hands down own that setter. I never can figure that out. I guess thats whats keeps me from being a true setter guy.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> Scott,
> 
> Vance had that dog Emmlous AppleJack that was a 2x RU Champ and he is now being used as a guide dog in Wisconsin. I worked behind that dog as did a few of my buddies and they all said they could kill a pile of grouse over that dog. Again, I agree with you i dont think most dogs can do both but , there are a few special dogs out there that can do it both.


What I am talking about is doing it concurrently.
Killing a pile of grouse takes time and effort and funds.
Winning a coverdog championship takes time and effort and funds.
You are stealing from Peter to pay Paul when trying to both in the same calendar year.
Of course many if not all can do both on their own.


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