# Seed awns and the Pheasants Forever project?



## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

Is Canadian Rye a grass to avoid due to seed awns? I was told it was, but that the Michigan DNR is using it for the Pheasants Forever project. One guy has supposedly lost 2 to 3 dogs from it.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

sgc said:


> Is Canadian Rye a grass to avoid due to seed awns? I was told it was, but that the Michigan DNR is using it for the Pheasants Forever project. One guy has supposedly lost 2 to 3 dogs from it.


IIRC, this is correct. A very real and deadly problem in some areas of the Dakotas. I believe the ESSFT website has a complete discussion re these deadly awns.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

I don't know the answer to that question.

The foxtail I see here seems to be a different variety than the "mean seed" encountered in the west.

I do know that I have had more dogs injured from Cut hay fields and cornstalks and wheat stubble, than any of the other grasses and weeds that grew near the fields.
What I'm trying to say, is that I think the grass awn danger might be a little overplayed.

It's all relative. If you run sporting dogs, they will get tore up.


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

Most CRP and government projects have a seed list that the government uses. Pheasant Forever does provide seed to some projects, but only uses the mean seeds in there blend when it’s government mandated


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

Maybe they should disband Pheasants Forever then. It doesnt make sense to me.


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

sgc said:


> Maybe they should disband Pheasants Forever then. It doesnt make sense to me.


What? Pheasant Forever only puts it in to meet Government specs. The Feds required in CRP. They don’t put mean seeds in non CRP mixes and will gladly leave it out where they can.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

That miniature grain mix they sell is an absolutely killer food plot mix. The miniature Milo the miniature corn, it only grows about waist high it’s fabulous.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Seed Awns have been the demise of a dozen Champion spaniels That i know of and many hunting dogs as well.

https://caninechronicle.com/current-articles/nasty-seeds-grass-awn-migration-infections/

http://www.meanseeds.com/

Hal


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## hehibrits (Mar 10, 2007)

I have dealt with nocardia a few times. There is a regimen that has great success in recovery from a vet out in Kansas.


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

Maybe this post should have been titled "don't support Pheasants Forever"! I didnt know they used this and I dont think all other dog hunters know it either. I'm reading more about it on a bird dog group and they say PF is about bird habitat only and not about hunting, (especially hunting with dogs).


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

sgc said:


> Maybe they should disband Pheasants Forever then. It doesnt make sense to me.


Why so the government can make a different group plant the grasses you are referring too? Why do you feel this is a pheasants forever problem?


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

Pheasant Forever is the “Habitat Organization “ they believe in putting habitat on the ground and improving existing habitat. All of that goes towards better hunter opportunities. I know very few PF People who are not pheasant hunters. Like I said before if it were up to PF there wouldn’t be mean seeds out there. Do you understand PFs platform? All money raised at the local level besides your annual membership stay local. For the local members to decide what to do with it. I am a committee person and try to be active in multiple organizations supporting pheasants. Trust me I’m a pheasant hunter. The only organization I know of that has a huge distaste for PH is some of the MPHI guys. I’m also on about all the pheasant hunting groups out there. So out of curiosity what group wants to disband Pheasant Forever?


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

I will make another donation to PF to balance the negative.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Well I thought this thread was about Mean seeds. But it turns out it is about these "Limp Wrist" organizations PF, DU, RG, TU, Butterflies Forever and so on. I live in a rural county on southern Michigan. No Pheasants here in a county of less than 70,000 people Open space and water and shelter belts galore.
Hal


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

gundogguy said:


> Well I thought this thread was about Mean seeds. But it turns out it is about these "Limp Wrist" organizations PF, DU, RG, TU, Butterflies Forever and so on. I live in a rural county on southern Michigan. No Pheasants here in a county of less than 70,000 people Open space and water and shelter belts galore.
> Hal


Agree. Its wasted effort thats killing dogs. Pheasants aren't coming back the way they were in the old days. Those days are long gone. I cant, however, get past dog hunters supporting an effort that uses something that kills the dogs they hunt with. Its beyond belief. If i was a conspiracy theorist, I'd say it was an anti hunting plot with the twist that they've gotten hunters to support it. Now we have wolves introduced in the UP and that have made their way to the northern lower and grass seeds planted in the lower that both kill our dogs.


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## Kevin Moeller (May 24, 2018)

sgc said:


> If i was a conspiracy theorist...


IF?


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

Sticks kill dogs too. Every year we hear about a dog getting a stick through its chest and dying. Should we disband RGS for encouraging forest cutting?

Every time we put a dog down there is a risk. Cars, cliffs, snakes, sticks and yes mean seeds. It up to the dog owners to be able to identify the risk and minimize it. Learn to steer clear of risk and do post run check ups. I had a dog killed by a raccoon years ago. Hated it. I’ve also learned from that tragedy of how to avoid it.
I will say it again. Pheasant Forever does not support putting mean seeds in grass mixes. It is the Federal Government that requires it. Petition the USDA. 
I can’t understand why hunters have a issue with a group trying to increase habitat at no cost to them unless they wish to join?
BTW. On my crowing survey route, pheasant numbers are increasing over the last few years.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

hehibrits said:


> I have dealt with nocardia a few times. There is a regimen that has great success in recovery from a vet out in Kansas.


Dr. Pat McInteer


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

I'd probably put blue/green algae at the top.Stagnant water,
heat,phosphorus combined with nitrogen is the highest risk and comes on fast due to Liver failure and cardiac arrest.
It's common for people to let or lead there dogs to water underestimating the risks.
I had a dog hit by a rattlesnake here at my mom's place maybe 10 years ago.I still hunt it regularly for grouse without a second thought.We drive 80 miles an hour and hunt alone with a loaded firearm over a dog ripping through the slashing's/woods around an abundance of wildlife that can inflict great bodily harm at or around any corner.
Risk is a natural death. It is a part of life in every aspect in the natural world and we are drawn to it by human nature as we belong to it calling us from within ourselves.


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## fishstruction (Aug 7, 2014)

There is a good episode on grass awns and other hazards bird dogs encounter on, On the wing Podcast episode 59.


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

I have complained to PF numerous times about there mix with mean seeds. Howard and others just make up excuses on why they need it in there mix. I say that mix should not be used by them at all.


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

fordman1 said:


> I have complained to PF numerous times about there mix with mean seeds. Howard and others just make up excuses on why they need it in there mix. I say that mix should not be used by them at all.


CRP requires it not PHEASANT FOREVER


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

fordman1 said:


> I have complained to PF numerous times about there mix with mean seeds. Howard and others just make up excuses on why they need it in there mix. I say that mix should not be used by them at all.


Better not to plant on CRP than plant seeds harmful to dogs! CRP requiring it is not an excuse. Just dont get the reasoning behind this.


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

The coalition for reason on this site is growing very weak...buy yourself a brush for your dog and go hunting. The fact that PF doing habitat work is somehow being portrayed as a bad thing is absurd.


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

michiganmaniac said:


> The coalition for reason on this site is growing very weak...buy yourself a brush for your dog and go hunting. The fact that PF doing habitat work is somehow being portrayed as a bad thing is absurd.


A brush won't work in the eye, up the nose, down the throat.


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## Gamekeeper (Oct 9, 2015)

Paranoia knows no bounds. There are a whole bunch of things, that ultimately lead people away from Bird dog‘s.

After 50 years with dogs, and only one with a foot injury that may or may not have been caused by potentially a piece of wheat stubble (but I have also lost a couple dogs to car injuries), I can say that the whole seed thing is right up there with the other stupid stuff that makes owning a bird dog so unpleasant for the paranoid, that they drop out of the hobby.
For comparison, I expect annual encounters with porcupines.

Being a hunting dog is hard. They chase their nose. Their nose can’t tell a bad weed from a good one. An owner can, so maybe a person can learn to identify them and steer their dog away from them on the occasion that they think they might see one. That might be enough to change the risk from one out of 1 million, to one out of 5 million. Right up there with being struck by lightning while you’re taking a piss.

So yes, because of decades of experience, I think this whole thing is overblown and I think it’s mostly promoted to generate eyeballs, YouTube hits, and promote conversation about magazine articles.


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

I cant share the link, but if you go to the Michigan Beaglers site on FB and read the post by Rachel Lucas you'll see how bad this stuff is.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

sgc said:


> I cant share the link, but if you go to the Michigan Beaglers site on FB and read the post by Rachel Lucas you'll see how bad this stuff is.


I believe this is the promotion that gamekeeper mentioned.
The internet information stream makes things larger than life.
I have been at it for well over 30 years.
I have owned fast dogs with reckless abandonment, dogs less agile(somewhat clumbsy).then dogs that will take on any cover imaginable (briars, stubble, corn, horrendous clear cuts, autumn olive) and lengthy at that.
Between training, conditioning, scouting, and hunting I can say I probably hit around 800 to 1000 hrs a year.
I have experienced sprains,concussions, heat stroke,skin tears,punctures,eye injuries, a dislocated leg,barbwire,lacerations, car hits,a rattlesnake bite, **** damage,groundhog damage,and porcupines I can't even count.
Even a nasty ice auger cut.
I'm sure I could think of more.
However I have not encountered a mean seed issue yet.
All my dogs lived past 14 except one that died at nine.
I have multiple dogs at a time for my recreational passion.
That alone is enough to scare someone from putting a dog to the ground I suppose then.
To be fair this thread title should be about the Federal government's seed program and not PF.The government institute's this as their land restoration seed package.
Pics of the last injury Nov 9 foot swells twice the size,then it festered out by the time I came home,the 13th she layed down an incredible run.

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content
















She hunted 3 days prior and was probably carrying on with it with no signs of discomfort.
I'll add that rattlesnakes are at highland and ionia field trial grounds.


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

On The Wing podcast episode 59 by Pheasant Forever. Listen to this to understand there stand better. 

sorry I am not smart enough to make a link.


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

She lost 3 dogs and describes how bad it is. Wow!


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

I agree with gamekeeper this thing is way over blown just like that covid virus I mean hell the chances of dying are very very slim! The only people that need to worry are those with underlying health problems! you know like those dog owners that can't tell good weeds from bad weeds .


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

What a


miruss said:


> I agree with gamekeeper this thing is way over blown just like that covid virus I mean hell the chances of dying are very very slim! The only people that need to worry are those with underlying health problems! you know like those dog owners that can't tell good weeds from bad weeds .


 Wow, what a jump in reasoning!


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

If your worried about grass awns and it makes you fearful then hang up your vest.There are so many other fears you best stay home.


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

birdhntr said:


> If your worried about grass awns and it makes you fearful then hang up your vest.There are so many other fears you best stay home.


Dont have a hunting dog at this time and dont live in southern mi. Where its a problem, just doesnt make any sense!


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

sgc said:


> Dont have a hunting dog at this time and dont live in southern mi. Where its a problem, just doesnt make any sense!


Just for the record this was a general statement and not directed to anyone specifically.
My grandfather had a saying "If your afraid to ride a horse then don't ride one"


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## fordman1 (Dec 12, 2015)

RCA DOGS said:


> CRP requires it not PHEASANT FOREVER


But they offer it and they don't have too, they have other mixes to sell. If people want a mix with bad stuff in it they can find it from other distributers not PF.


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

fordman1 said:


> But they offer it and they don't have too, they have other mixes to sell. If people want a mix with bad stuff in it they can find it from other distributers not PF.


They offer it to those people enrolled in CRP. Every state has a mix required for there CRP and yes PF will sell it to them. They also have mixes without the seeds. Your beef should be with CRP requiring it not with a habitat organization supplying it. Quite frankly it does provide good cover for pheasants. CRPs main goal is not pheasants or dogs but protecting soil and water. PF just uses it as a tool to provide habitat for birds.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

The real demise or death of a bird dog is the host.
No birds would then mean no need for bird dogs


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## P. colchicus (Oct 4, 2019)

I work in the Ag sector and sit on the NRCS Michigan Technical committee, which is just a group of Ag/natural resource stakeholders who advise NRCS and FSA on Michigan-specific farm Bill stuff. I can tell you that attempts are being made to update these mix requirements, and dropping the mean seeds (specifically Virginia Wild Rye) from the required list is something that we’re pushing for. Unfortunately these changes happen slowly, but the discussion is ongoing. Virginia Wild rye is in there to begin with because it’s a cool season grass that behaves more like our native warm season grasses - thick-stemmed, tall, and clumpy - but grows extensively in the early years of a planting when the warm seasons are still devoting much of their energy to root production. So it does provide good habitat, and quickly. I think the idea that PF should stop offering seed for CRP plantings over this is laughable, but I agree that they could do a better job advertising these mixes as specifically for CRP so folks buying seeds for other types of projects know that they can pick a mix without these species.

I actually bought some seed from PF a few years back for some on-farm testing we were doing, and I called up their seed department and asked for one of their MI CRP mixes without the Wild rye. They happily customized the mix for me.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

I can't believe that there are upland hunters that seem to think this is OK....


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## FNC (Jun 5, 2007)

Howitzer said:


> Ahhh now I'm a socialist, says the guy who promotes an organization that spends gazillions of taxpayer money to support his "hunt". Enjoy your 25% of the revenue for habitat projects because your cherished PF is going to be in its death throes due to the government not giving them any money.
> 
> And calling me a dump n hunt, that's laughable, you guys make the worst assumptions and believe anything PF pours down your throat. The fact of the matter is I stuck with MPHI and the stamp like I did out of spite for PF, I hunt primarily in Montana and have 4 trips this year so far and have one more elk hunt next month. I am telling you this because I have plenty of money and time to hunt wherever I want and I don't need an organization to show or tell me what and where I should hunt.
> 
> ...


Howitzer,

Some thoughts and questions:

1. What, specifically, do you have against PF's focus on habitat in support of WILD bird populations? Everything I've experienced (in Michigan, Iowa, and South Dakota) demonstrates PF is very effective in partnership with landowners and state DNR's in getting not only habitat but the right habitat into the ground. Benefits not only accrue to upland wildlife, but many other game/non-game species and water quality. 

2. For hunters like myself that truly enjoy pursuing WILD birds, what other conservation group has done more for pheasants and pheasant hunting than PF? If there is one, please let me know so I can donate to them as well.

3. Finally, I've never experienced upland hunting on Montana. What exactly does Montana do differently than other states that results in better upland hunting? I'll bet your response will revolve around habitat.

Closer to home. I've been very impressed with the work done by MPRI and the management of public lands for pheasant. After overcoming a serious health issue, I've been fortunate enough to get back into this with my dog and my hat's off to the DNR/PF and other local organizations that foster habitat improvement. I've seen birds every single time I've hunted managed public land. Have I bagged birds consistently, of course not - it's wild bird hunting. But we've had alot of contacts that otherwise would not have been possible without the aforementioned habitat work. Is PF perfect? No, but the good they do FAR outweighs the (perceived) bad.

Just my opinion.

Frank


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

What does Montana do differently? I am not a biologist but there have been several studies on the ranch where I have been hunting my entire life. The most recent studies show that Sage Grouse do better with cattle than without. I know that if you have cows you have upland, it's really that simple upland birds benefit greatly from cattle and cattle activities. 

So yes it does include habitat ut that's obvious, what a lot of people fail to see is there are very few vast grassland projects that cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. Also in Montana organizations have proven to be more hurtful to long-term management and ultimately hurt the best stewards of the land which is the ranchers who have been managing the land for the highest and best use for 150 years. Groups like the American Prairie Reserve and RMEF are
hurting most hunters because they are buying high dollar leases forcing hunters to either lease or pay for guided hunts because of the added pressure on public land caused by the defection of hunters from private areas. It's causing more problems than I can list in a day but the added outside money that is from so call well-meaning organizations actually has a negative effect on the wildlife and the people that have owned the land for a century or more. 

I have to add that the MPHI project will not only add funds for habitat which are desperately needed because the funding is drying up fast and won't likely return to current levels in our lifetime, the project also takes the pressure off wild populations. What befuddles me is these people are calling MPHI government chicken while they hunt millions of acres of tax-payer procured and managed land is pure duplicity, to say the least. 

With all that said habitat money is mostly gone as we know it and we all better embrace any available income streams to manage what we already have or it will be gone in 2030.


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## sportsman98 (Dec 6, 2010)

Howitzer said:


> What does Montana do differently? I am not a biologist but there have been several studies on the ranch where I have been hunting my entire life. The most recent studies show that Sage Grouse do better with cattle than without. I know that if you have cows you have upland, it's really that simple upland birds benefit greatly from cattle and cattle activities.
> 
> So yes it does include habitat ut that's obvious, what a lot of people fail to see is there are very few vast grassland projects that cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. Also in Montana organizations have proven to be more hurtful to long-term management and ultimately hurt the best stewards of the land which is the ranchers who have been managing the land for the highest and best use for 150 years. Groups like the American Prairie Reserve and RMEF are
> hurting most hunters because they are buying high dollar leases forcing hunters to either lease or pay for guided hunts because of the added pressure on public land caused by the defection of hunters from private areas. It's causing more problems than I can list in a day but the added outside money that is from so call well-meaning organizations actually has a negative effect on the wildlife and the people that have owned the land for a century or more.
> ...


Except that the MPHI bill as passed by the legislature was amended to have 100% of the stamp go towards supporting the release program. There is no support for habitat or wild birds in Michigan anywhere in that bill.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

sportsman98 said:


> Except that the MPHI bill as passed by the legislature was amended to have 100% of the stamp go towards supporting the release program. There is no support for habitat or wild birds in Michigan anywhere in that bill.


Dang I was unaware of that, I was unaware of that amendment but I still think it's a step in the right direction to get boots on the ground. I bet this is an example of my way or the highway ideology did not pay off because the MPHI committee was entirely supportive of the habitat provision. If I had to take a wild guess someone from PF was creating unneeded problems at the capital as they have all along. 

It may be a simple legal problem with budgeting and the money is to be applied in another fashion I will find out for you though.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

The update is that the habitat money was dropped due to problems with a certain person that was inflexible with the language so they dropped it completely to get them out of the picture. This is a failure of your PF representative if I were you I would be calling Howard Vincent and voicing your concern because the habitat provision died at the hands of the habitat advocates.

And for the record, I am not happy about the loss of habitat language but it's not the fault of MPHI.


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## FNC (Jun 5, 2007)

That


Howitzer said:


> The update is that the habitat money was dropped due to problems with a certain person that was inflexible with the language so they dropped it completely to get them out of the picture. This is a failure of your PF representative if I were you I would be calling Howard Vincent and voicing your concern because the habitat provision died at the hands of the habitat advocates.
> 
> And for the record, I am not happy about the loss of habitat language but it's not the fault of MPHI.


 That is incredible...


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

Howitzer said:


> The update is that the habitat money was dropped due to problems with a certain person that was inflexible with the language so they dropped it completely to get them out of the picture. This is a failure of your PF representative if I were you I would be calling Howard Vincent and voicing your concern because the habitat provision died at the hands of the habitat advocates.
> 
> And for the record, I am not happy about the loss of habitat language but it's not the fault of MPHI.


Wow!


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

So how about that Canadian Rye a grass being used in PF projects?


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

Lucky Dog said:


> So how about that Canadian Rye a grass being used in PF projects?


I dunno, I am awaiting word on that and I have the guy that will know.


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

sgc said:


> Wow!



Agreed, I am taken back from it myself but not surprised. I am with MPHI and we have been fighting PF Michigan since day one and even the PF'ers here will admit PF Michigan did some very underhanded things to MPHI and the DNR and it appears that the roosters have come home to roost..oh the pun. 

I am saying PF Michigan because for the most part Howard and Charlie were somewhat helpful in finding language for PF to support the release but those marching orders were not executed by the Michigan PF'ers..I bet there will be some very unpleasant meetings this is the biggest miss I can think of for PF if not a colossal failure.


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

I really hope hunters and Pheasant Forever supporters do there research on PF and the MPHI. Some people have very biased views and a personal grudge. Don’t take the word of internet voices. There is a lot of false information on this thread. Do the research and make up your own mind. 

Lastly Pheasant Forevers motto is the “habitat organization “ It is against our motto


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

RCA DOGS said:


> I really hope hunters and Pheasant Forever supporters do there research on PF and the MPHI. Some people have very biased views and a personal grudge. Don’t take the word of internet voices. There is a lot of false information on this thread. Do the research and make up your own mind.
> 
> Lastly Pheasant Forevers motto is the “habitat organization “ It is against our motto


I agree if people did research it would not have been a total loss for PF. There were more committee hearings than I can count with representatives from all sides and the committee people had ample time to weigh truths and half-truths and rhetoric spread by many, and an overwhelming number choose MPHI. And when your asking questions call national and read the email below, they did not mind the stocking they just wanted more money.



_Pheasants Forever is dedicated to the conservation of pheasants, quail and other wildlife through habitat improvements, public awareness, education and land management policies and programs. We support the substitute bill, contingent on the following modifications that would better align the bill with our mission: _


_100% of the revenue generated by the proposed Pheasant Stamp should be dedicated, by statute, to an ear-marked sub-fund for pheasant habitat and stocking, for maintaining the future of the pheasant hunting tradition in Michigan._
_We are the Habitat Organization and we have partnered in the development and implementation of the Michigan Pheasant Restoration Initiative (MPRI). We request a more equitable distribution of funds with 50% of funds dedicated to stocking efforts and 50% dedicated to pheasant habitat priorities identified in the MPRI. _
_Costs have long been identified as a barrier to recruiting and retaining hunters. Youth and adult participants of learn-to-hunt events with the primary focus of recruiting, retaining and reactivating hunters should be excluded from the requirement to purchase a pheasant stamp._
_A $25.00 stamp fee is high and could negatively impact numbers of current and new pheasant hunters. We suggest a pheasant stamp fee in the $15 range._
 

_Pheasants Forever has nearly 35 years of commitment to wild pheasant restoration in Michigan, and we have been involved in every aspect of the Michigan Pheasant Restoration Initiative for 10 years. A pheasant stamp that is required of all pheasant hunters should support our mission and the established MPRI plan as well as the stocking initiative._



_I welcome your thoughts. I’ll keep you informed as this bill progresses._



_Bill Vander Zouwen, Michigan Region Rep, Pheasants Forever_


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

Howitzer said:


> I agree if people did research it would not have been a total loss for PF. There were more committee hearings than I can count with representatives from all sides and the committee people had ample time to weigh truths and half-truths and rhetoric spread by many, and an overwhelming number choose MPHI. And when your asking questions call national and read the email below, they did not mind the stocking they just wanted more money.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly!
Pheasant Forever is dedicated to the habitat to enrich wildlife including pheasants. Not putting birds out to shoot. 
Just because what one organization believes in doesn’t go along with the other doesn’t mean you wage war. Agree to disagree. Both organizations in there own way are trying to improve the outdoor experience. I’ve always said I’m not against the MPHI. It’s state land for everyone. I just didn’t want to make everyone pay for birds not everyone is going to use. Pay to play is my stance.


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

Lucky Dog said:


> So how about that Canadian Rye a grass being used in PF projects?


This is the crux of the issue, in this post. Quit planting this garbage weed and dont support an organization that requires it.


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## RCA DOGS (Sep 24, 2011)

sgc said:


> This is the crux of the issue, in this post. Quit planting this garbage weed and dont support an organization that requires it.


You just don’t get it as many times as we say it. Pheasant Forever does NOT require mean seeds. The Ag department does.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

RCA DOGS said:


> You just don’t get it as many times as we say it. Pheasant Forever does NOT require mean seeds. The Ag depa


What you are not understanding is that some of the standard off the shelf seed mixes offered by PF contain mean seeds.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

sgc said:


> This is the crux of the issue, in this post. Quit planting this garbage weed and dont support an organization that requires it.


I guess some folks would rather change the topic and rattle on about releasing pheasants. Sad


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## Howitzer (Nov 1, 2004)

P. colchicus said:


> I work in the Ag sector and sit on the NRCS Michigan Technical committee, which is just a group of Ag/natural resource stakeholders who advise NRCS and FSA on Michigan-specific farm Bill stuff. I can tell you that attempts are being made to update these mix requirements, and dropping the mean seeds (specifically Virginia Wild Rye) from the required list is something that we’re pushing for. Unfortunately these changes happen slowly, but the discussion is ongoing. Virginia Wild rye is in there to begin with because it’s a cool season grass that behaves more like our native warm season grasses - thick-stemmed, tall, and clumpy - but grows extensively in the early years of a planting when the warm seasons are still devoting much of their energy to root production. So it does provide good habitat, and quickly. I think the idea that PF should stop offering seed for CRP plantings over this is laughable, but I agree that they could do a better job advertising these mixes as specifically for CRP so folks buying seeds for other types of projects know that they can pick a mix without these species.
> 
> I actually bought some seed from PF a few years back for some on-farm testing we were doing, and I called up their seed department and asked for one of their MI CRP mixes without the Wild rye. They happily customized the mix for me.


I spoke with my people and you summed it up, it's not a PF, USDA, DNR thing of intentionally sourcing or planting these seeds it's a complicated seed supply chain that needs to be phased out. I know you know you summed it up I am reinforcing your summation to the group.


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## sgc (Oct 21, 2007)

RCA DOGS said:


> You just don’t get it as many times as we say it. Pheasant Forever does NOT require mean seeds. The Ag department does.


Then dont plant until this requirement is changed! Seems pretty simple; dont plant seeds that hurt our dogs! You dont get it.


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## Buckeye Badger (Oct 27, 2011)

Some places in Ohio a PF biologist is putting together mixes for CRP contracts. VA Wildrye and / or Canada Wildrye is included in the mixes.


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