# Warning! Xylitol



## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Liver and Onions said:


> Michigan is a referendum State. Good luck trying to change that.
> 
> https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_Wolf_Hunting_Referendum,_Proposal_1_(2014)
> 
> L & O


In 1980 when the first wolves were brought to Michigan there was no politics involved. I might add that they were very well managed and the people of the UP had their say in wolf management at that time. The way things are going nature will take care of itself. The predators will eat all of the food that is available and easy to catch. Then they will hunt farm and domestic animals and that will be their demise. The rest will starve.


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## dallasdog (Nov 17, 2009)

Most bar/campfire talk is mostly BS but it happened to my dog and another dog in the same year about 20 miles away. Some people are doing this. I dont want sympathy or care about everyones opinion on the wolf issues. I just want to let people know that if they see a symptom to get their dog to the vet asap more then likely its to late at that point. Just a heads up.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

dallasdog said:


> Most bar/campfire talk is mostly BS but it happened to my dog and another dog in the same year about 20 miles away. Some people are doing this. I dont want sympathy or care about everyones opinion on the wolf issues. I just want to let people know that if they see a symptom to get their dog to the vet asap more then likely its to late at that point. Just a heads up.


Is it possible that the dogs got into the anti freeze other than it being used as a poison? A person who had a radiator problem in the woods leakage or whatever your dog may have gotten into that.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Robert Holmes said:


> In 1980 when the first wolves were brought to Michigan there was no politics involved..................


Where are you getting this information ? I'm no able to find that information.
From the link below:
The only attempt to reintroduce wolves occurred in the mid-70s when 4 were released. They all died. During the 80's migration to Michigan started. First breeding pair in '89.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Draft_Wolf_Management_Plan_030708_227742_7.pdf

L & O


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Robert Holmes said:


> Is it possible that the dogs got into the anti freeze other than it being used as a poison? A person who had a radiator problem in the woods leakage or whatever your dog may have gotten into that.


No, when he went back they found meat wrapping around where he was running the dog.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I am thinking (35 years ago) that 4 wolves were released near Marquette in 1979 or 1980 and all 4 of them were shot and killed.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

dauber said:


> No, when he went back they found meat wrapping around where he was running the dog.


Were the police ever called to investigate (fingerprints) or other evidence. Did the meat wrapper smell like anti freeze? I find it hard to believe that someone would poison two dogs 20 miles apart. I doubt that anti freeze would work on a coyote or wolf if that was their intent. Dogs usually will not eat meat if it is spoiled, not saying that the meat was not fresh. If the meat was fresh then the person who put it there knew when your dog would pass through. I am thinking that without evidence if your dog was poisoned the way you claim either you know who did it or they know you. To me a meat wrapper in the woods means nothing. If it is a meat wrapper that smells of anti freeze and your dog ate meat that was there then died that is a different story. Was an autopsy of the dog ever done? There are just too many places where a dog can get into anti freeze other than how it is stated.
I have had issues with dog owners in the past (drug houses) I would never think to poison the dog. One very well worded call to animal control takes care of the problem. That being I am a gun owner and I have a right to open carry a firearm. I also have a right to use that firearm in self defense. If I am attacked by that dog again I will use my firearm in self defense. I will also use that firearm to defend my family members and/or domestic pets.


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## MandJ (Oct 10, 2012)

What?? I don't even know where to start


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

Robert Holmes said:


> Were the police ever called to investigate (fingerprints) or other evidence. Did the meat wrapper smell like anti freeze? I find it hard to believe that someone would poison two dogs 20 miles apart. I doubt that anti freeze would work on a coyote or wolf if that was their intent. Dogs usually will not eat meat if it is spoiled, not saying that the meat was not fresh. If the meat was fresh then the person who put it there knew when your dog would pass through. I am thinking that without evidence if your dog was poisoned the way you claim either you know who did it or they know you. To me a meat wrapper in the woods means nothing. If it is a meat wrapper that smells of anti freeze and your dog ate meat that was there then died that is a different story. Was an autopsy of the dog ever done? There are just too many places where a dog can get into anti freeze other than how it is stated.
> I have had issues with dog owners in the past (drug houses) I would never think to poison the dog. One very well worded call to animal control takes care of the problem. That being I am a gun owner and I have a right to open carry a firearm. I also have a right to use that firearm in self defense. If I am attacked by that dog again I will use my firearm in self defense. I will also use that firearm to defend my family members and/or domestic pets.


I was under the impression that modern Anti-Freeze is no longer toxic to animals.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Robert Holmes said:


> Were the police ever called to investigate (fingerprints) or other evidence. Did the meat wrapper smell like anti freeze? I find it hard to believe that someone would poison two dogs 20 miles apart. I doubt that anti freeze would work on a coyote or wolf if that was their intent. Dogs usually will not eat meat if it is spoiled, not saying that the meat was not fresh. If the meat was fresh then the person who put it there knew when your dog would pass through. I am thinking that without evidence if your dog was poisoned the way you claim either you know who did it or they know you. To me a meat wrapper in the woods means nothing. If it is a meat wrapper that smells of anti freeze and your dog ate meat that was there then died that is a different story. Was an autopsy of the dog ever done? There are just too many places where a dog can get into anti freeze other than how it is stated.
> I have had issues with dog owners in the past (drug houses) I would never think to poison the dog. One very well worded call to animal control takes care of the problem. That being I am a gun owner and I have a right to open carry a firearm. I also have a right to use that firearm in self defense. If I am attacked by that dog again I will use my firearm in self defense. I will also use that firearm to defend my family members and/or domestic pets.


Yes authorities were contacted and it was investigated. The vets know the symptoms and timing that are well documented. His dog was not off running around other than in the woods working on birds. 

Tainted meat is often used for trapping predators. 

I doubt they even gave it a thought they were poisoning dogs, they thought they were killing wolves.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Are people really that stupid as to think that a wolf would eat store bought meat tainted with anti freeze? I have to give the wolf a little credit here. They kill deer that they don't consume so why would they eat any store bought meat?


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

dauber said:


> Yes authorities were contacted and it was investigated. The vets know the symptoms and timing that are well documented. His dog was not off running around other than in the woods working on birds.
> 
> Tainted meat is often used for trapping predators.
> 
> I doubt they even gave it a thought they were poisoning dogs, they thought they were killing wolves.


Okay they were targeting other predators the dog was in the wrong place.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Robert Holmes said:


> Are people really that stupid as to think that a wolf would eat store bought meat tainted with anti freeze? I have to give the wolf a little credit here. They kill deer that they don't consume so why would they eat any store bought meat?


They don't consume everything they because they often get whipped into a killing frenzy and take out more than they need.

But eating scraps, yeah, they'll do that and it's well documented. There was a lot of targeted poisoning going on 100-200 years ago. It took hunting, trapping, and poison to eradicate them from most of the lower 48.


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## anticipation (Jun 5, 2008)

I've heard deer hunters talk about using xylitol on meat or dog food to eradicate coyotes and wolves and I've also heard of antifreeze tainted meat for the same porpoises . My pup was eating dog food she found while we were pheasant hunting this year in the thumb on state land . I took her strait to the vet 20 minutes away they induced vomiting and gave her some charcoal pills to coat her stomach. Not positive it was poisoned but I wasn't going to chance it . I found I strange to find a pile of dog food in the middle of a field


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Robert Holmes said:


> Are people really that stupid as to think that a wolf would eat store bought meat tainted with anti freeze? I have to give the wolf a little credit here.
> .......................


I don't believe people are stupid to think a wolf would eat store meat. If they're hungry enough they probably would let their guard down. What we have heard from trappers in other states where trapping is allow, is that these animals are even harder to trap than coyotes. 
I doubt that many even try this sugar substitute, xylitol and unless they really practice human scent control I bet not many wolves or coyotes would be fooled. Dogs would be a different story.
As mentioned, legal trapping could bring these animals down to the desired number that was referred to by the DNR roughly 15 years ago. That number was 200.

L & O


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## Josh R (Dec 4, 2010)

Robert Holmes said:


> Okay they were targeting other predators the dog was in the wrong place.


Is it legal to target(in the hunting rules) predators with poison?

Pheasants and Walleyes


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

anticipation said:


> I've heard deer hunters talk about using xylitol on meat or dog food to eradicate coyotes and wolves and I've also heard of antifreeze tainted meat for the same porpoises . My pup was eating dog food she found while we were pheasant hunting this year in the thumb on state land . I took her strait to the vet 20 minutes away they induced vomiting and gave her some charcoal pills to coat her stomach. Not positive it was poisoned but I wasn't going to chance it . I found I strange to find a pile of dog food in the middle of a field


I hunt bear with Dog food.............


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## Josh R (Dec 4, 2010)

Midalake said:


> I hunt bear with Dog food.............


I'm sure a lot of people do, but in the middle of the thumb in a grass field? Maybe that's a good spot for a bear but I think it's highly unlikely

Pheasants and Walleyes


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## dallasdog (Nov 17, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> Were the police ever called to investigate (fingerprints) or other evidence. Did the meat wrapper smell like anti freeze? I find it hard to believe that someone would poison two dogs 20 miles apart. I doubt that anti freeze would work on a coyote or wolf if that was their intent. Dogs usually will not eat meat if it is spoiled, not saying that the meat was not fresh. If the meat was fresh then the person who put it there knew when your dog would pass through. I am thinking that without evidence if your dog was poisoned the way you claim either you know who did it or they know you. To me a meat wrapper in the woods means nothing. If it is a meat wrapper that smells of anti freeze and your dog ate meat that was there then died that is a different story. Was an autopsy of the dog ever done? There are just too many places where a dog can get into anti freeze other than how it is stated.
> I have had issues with dog owners in the past (drug houses) I would never think to poison the dog. One very well worded call to animal control takes care of the problem. That being I am a gun owner and I have a right to open carry a firearm. I also have a right to use that firearm in self defense. If I am attacked by that dog again I will use my firearm in self defense. I will also use that firearm to defend my family members and/or domestic pets.


 Robert, Rather you like it or not this happened to me. When they investigated they found a dead coyote in the area as well. People are stupid thats why it was in the woods. and for the record your an idiot.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

dallasdog said:


> Robert, Rather you like it or not this happened to me. When they investigated they found a dead coyote in the area as well. People are stupid thats why it was in the woods. and for the record your an idiot.


Dog, I feel sorry for your dog and the way the idiot went about things was totally wrong. I hope that person is caught and arrested. Enough said. The original post was very vague.


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## UplandJunkie (Feb 4, 2013)

Robert Holmes said:


> . That being I am a gun owner and I have a right to open carry a firearm. .


I don't even know where to start with your post so I'm just gonna start here and all I have to say is, God help us all if a person with your thought process is allowed to own a gun.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

UplandJunkie said:


> I don't even know where to start with your post so I'm just gonna start here and all I have to say is, God help us all if a person with your thought process is allowed to own a gun.


I will add that I was attacked by a german shepard 3 different times as was my wife and child on my property. The dog owner had the dog to protect his drug house. Yes I would have shot the dog in a minute. That dog had every intention to severely bite any one of us. So I am supposed to be a dog lover and let it happen until someone is in the hospital with dog bites, get a life. Based on my complaint and the fact that it attacked a law enforcement officer it was taken by animal control.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Robert Holmes said:


> I will add that I was attacked by a german shepard 3 different times as was my wife and child on my property. The dog owner had the dog to protect his drug house. Yes I would have shot the dog in a minute. That dog had every intention to severely bite any one of us. So I am supposed to be a dog lover and let it happen until someone is in the hospital with dog bites, get a life. Based on my complaint and the fact that it attacked a law enforcement officer it was taken by animal control.


...and what does this have to do with the OP? And what does this have to do with criminals putting poison in the woods to illegally kill wolves and coyotes, that creates a terrible danger to those of us who LOVE dogs?

I suggest you need to get some psychological help.


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## UplandJunkie (Feb 4, 2013)

dauber said:


> ...and what does this have to do with the OP? And what does this have to do with criminals putting poison in the woods to illegally kill wolves and coyotes, that creates a terrible danger to those of us who LOVE dogs?
> 
> I suggest you need to get some psychological help.


Nothing......Absolutely no relevance to the OP. 

Robert, with your vast knowledge and first hand experience with predators such as wolves and coyotes you should know that not only are they both predators as well as being opportunists. It is very unlikely that they will pass up a free meal where they do not have to expend energy hunting. I highly doubt they care if their meal (meat) is store bought or for that matter fresh. 

As someone who was there first hand for this encounter it was extremely odd to find meat wrappers randomly through this area as it is miles from the nearest camp and over 20 miles from the nearest grocery store. 

Myself, Dallasdog and the CO also found it very odd to find a dead coyote curled up in the fetal position with no bullet holes in it or no other signs of trauma. Almost as if it got extremely sick and died!

Anyone who feels that poisoning any animal does not belong with the general public. They either belong in a prison or psychiatric ward. The death these animals endure is in no way humane. 

If you feel the need to take matters in your own hands do it with one of the legal methods put in place to do so.


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## dallasdog (Nov 17, 2009)

UplandJunkie said:


> Nothing......Absolutely no relevance to the OP.
> 
> Robert, with your vast knowledge and first hand experience with predators such as wolves and coyotes you should know that not only are they both predators as well as being opportunists. It is very unlikely that they will pass up a free meal where they do not have to expend energy hunting. I highly doubt they care if their meal (meat) is store bought or for that matter fresh.
> 
> ...


I guess its like one of them Negative wolf encounters without actually seeing the wolf but we know they are close. Robert Holmes = Super Yooper


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

dauber said:


> ...and what does this have to do with the OP? And what does this have to do with criminals putting poison in the woods to illegally kill wolves and coyotes, that creates a terrible danger to those of us who LOVE dogs?
> 
> I suggest you need to get some psychological help.


I am not the one who put poison i


UplandJunkie said:


> Nothing......Absolutely no relevance to the OP.
> 
> Robert, with your vast knowledge and first hand experience with predators such as wolves and coyotes you should know that not only are they both predators as well as being opportunists. It is very unlikely that they will pass up a free meal where they do not have to expend energy hunting. I highly doubt they care if their meal (meat) is store bought or for that matter fresh.
> 
> ...


Dude get off it I did not poison your damn dog and I posted three times that I hope they catch the person who did this. Don't even try to accuse me. I probably don't even go anywhere near where this happened and I don't even own a jug of anti freeze. I for sure would not waste my money on whatever kind of meat it was to throw it out in the woods. You guys are bent on getting revenge and that does not make you any better than the person that poisoned your dog. I would leave it the hands of law enforcement so that it does not cause you any more hard feelings.


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## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

dallasdog said:


> With Deer Season closed and numbers down I have heard of several people that say they are going to take the wolf "problem" into their own hands and start putting Xylitol out in the woods. I hope people arent actually doing this and if you see it please report it. This is a real threat to our bird dogs, I have first hand experince with poison and bird dogs in the woods (dog died after getting into antifreeze tainted meat).



Here is the OP. It is just a warning to fellow bird hunters. Dallasdog knows from experience. It is a straight forward warning. 

You Robert have questioned and doubted him and blamed anti-wolf people, and talked about shooting dogs. 

Just keep your eyes open fellow bird hunters.


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## anticipation (Jun 5, 2008)

I've since added hydrogen peroxide to my first aid kit to induce vomiting in the field just in case


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## dallasdog (Nov 17, 2009)

dauber said:


> Here is the OP. It is just a warning to fellow bird hunters. Dallasdog knows from experience. It is a straight forward warning.
> 
> You Robert have questioned and doubted him and blamed anti-wolf people, and talked about shooting dogs.
> 
> Just keep your eyes open fellow bird hunters.


Thanks Dauber


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## UplandJunkie (Feb 4, 2013)

Robert Holmes said:


> I am not the one who put poison i
> 
> Dude get off it I did not poison your damn dog and I posted three times that I hope they catch the person who did this. Don't even try to accuse me. I probably don't even go anywhere near where this happened and I don't even own a jug of anti freeze. I for sure would not waste my money on whatever kind of meat it was to throw it out in the woods. You guys are bent on getting revenge and that does not make you any better than the person that poisoned your dog. I would leave it the hands of law enforcement so that it does not cause you any more hard feelings.


My sincerest apologies Robert. In no way was the last sentence of my post meant to imply that YOU poisoned Dallasdog's dog. I thought the direction of the post had changed from being directed towards you and was more of a blanket statement. ie, you as in the reader. With that being said, the rest of the post was directed towards you and your doubt of the whole unfortunate scenario. 

No one is hell bent on revenge. Revenge doesn't change what happened and it was left in the hands of law enforcement right away. We are however, hell bent on raising awareness on this topic and when any of us hear someone start talking, bragging, or even thinking out loud about putting poison out we do not take it lightly.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Robert Holmes said:


> Wolves have been in the UP for about 35 years so if they have not made a major migration to the LP over that time span you can rest assured that without human help it probably will not happen. I can see a federal judge ordering it to happen and the DNR or USFWS dumping them out of the back of pick up trucks at night.
> Keep in mind that it is the license dollars and tax dollars from hunting, fishing, and trapping that has bought and paid for the wolves to be here in the first place.



http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2015/09/18/michigan-dnr-confirms-wolf-presence-lower-peninsula/


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

I have heard it for 25 years on how people are going to kill wolves in the UP in all of the bars and restaurants. If less than 1 percent of the people took any kind of action there would not be a wolf left. Yes lots of rants and raves but very little action. When it does happen and the person is caught more often than not it is someone from the LP. Perhaps you should be aware that there are a very small handful of people out there that are hell bent on killing wolves and they may resort to some drastic means of carrying this out. At the same time there are a number of pot plantations and meth labs out there that people will protect with drastic measures. I guess that we have to be very aware of what we run into when we are in the woods. If you see anything suspicious please call the rap line before someone or their pet is injured or killed.


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## dallasdog (Nov 17, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> I have heard it for 25 years on how people are going to kill wolves in the UP in all of the bars and restaurants. If less than 1 percent of the people took any kind of action there would not be a wolf left. Yes lots of rants and raves but very little action. When it does happen and the person is caught more often than not it is someone from the LP. Perhaps you should be aware that there are a very small handful of people out there that are hell bent on killing wolves and they may resort to some drastic means of carrying this out. At the same time there are a number of pot plantations and meth labs out there that people will protect with drastic measures. I guess that we have to be very aware of what we run into when we are in the woods. If you see anything suspicious please call the rap line before someone or their pet is injured or killed.


 maybe your problem is spending to much time in the bar sipping the juice. Arent the people in the LP the ones trying to save the wolves because they dont know what kind of problem they are? get your story straight and maybe somebody will listen to you. Until then you would be better off not talking to the general public about wolves. Again this was not ment to be a debate over an animal I dont care about. It was a warning to those who have an animal in the woods that they do care about.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

dallasdog said:


> maybe your problem is spending to much time in the bar sipping the juice. Arent the people in the LP the ones trying to save the wolves because they dont know what kind of problem they are? get your story straight and maybe somebody will listen to you. Until then you would be better off not talking to the general public about wolves. Again this was not ment to be a debate over an animal I dont care about. It was a warning to those who have an animal in the woods that they do care about.


Dog. LOL I don't even drink


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

I disagree that the LP folks are normally the people who shoot wolves. I will go out on a limb and say more are killed by the yoopers than the trolls. The difference is the yoopers don't talk about it very often and keep it quiet.

Spent several years hunting bear in the Baraga unit. First year the guys I hunted with did not open up much about reducing the wolf populations. The second year they started eluding to ways of taking wolves out, without getting caught. Can't say they actually did it but I am betting they were not just passing rumors around.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

The DNR probably has a very good idea about how many wolves are taken by illegal means every year. The ones that make the news are about 5 per year. I am sure that some go unreported due to undergoing investigations and a few are never found. Some wounded ones are probably killed by pack wolves because their ability to hunt or fight is no longer there. An educated guess is probably 15 per year which is a small percentage of the population. If I am close to being right it is already figured into the mortality and it is expected to happen. Most of the UP residents who "think" that they could just go out and shoot one would have a difficult time doing it. Of the wolves that I have seen in my life I have only had a gun with me twice during deer season. You could have a couple roaming your back 40 for a couple of weeks then never see another one there for three or four years. For the people that think shooting a wolf is like shooting a raccoon, it would be much harder than that.


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

Robert Holmes said:


> The DNR probably has a very good idea about how many wolves are taken by illegal means every year. .......
> 
> An educated guess is probably 15 per year which is a small percentage of the population. ................................


With over 16,000 sq. miles in the UP and a whole lot of wilderness, I don't see how anyone could make an educated guess. We could all make a wild guess, but how does one make an educated guess ?

L & O


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Liver and Onions said:


> With over 16,000 sq. miles in the UP and a whole lot of wilderness, I don't see how anyone could make an educated guess. We could all make a wild guess, but how does one make an educated guess ?
> 
> L & O


Based on the number of kills that make the news. It could be much higher but there are quite a few wolves out there with radio collars. I know a CO that would have a real good idea as he investigates many of them throughout the UP. I will put a post when I ask him. I only know of 1 that made the news recently. From my experience and I do know where to find wolves, it would be very time consuming to just go out and hunt one legal or not. I think if the illegal killing of wolves took a serious toll on the population it would appear in the news a whole lot more. Same thing every year a couple or three isolated cases make the news. If they have a season again I doubt that I would buy a license because I know how hard it is to find them. That is why I say the bar talk is 99.999 percent BS. I laughed at Jenny Granholm when she said, " you can drive to the UP and see a wolf". Not as easy as you think there Jenny.


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## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Midalake said:


> I hunt bear with Dog food.............


Strawberry gelatin and dough nuts .


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

kingfisher 11 said:


> I disagree that the LP folks are normally the people who shoot wolves. I will go out on a limb and say more are killed by the yoopers than the trolls. The difference is the yoopers don't talk about it very often and keep it quiet.
> 
> Spent several years hunting bear in the Baraga unit. First year the guys I hunted with did not open up much about reducing the wolf populations. The second year they started eluding to ways of taking wolves out, without getting caught. Can't say they actually did it but I am betting they were not just passing rumors around.


I disagree. 100% of the convicted cougar killers reside in the LP or prison. Nearly every news story about wolf killing is by a resident of the LP. Either trolls are all stupid or yoopers are way smarter. Either way trolls are the ones being convicted of most crimes against UP predators.


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