# Elk permit thoughts



## jayzbird (May 19, 2005)

What exactly is thee odds of drawing a permit if anyone knows? Also, when did they start the weighted lottery system? What year? Been applying every year since 1987, yet to be successful. I have had the maximum amount of points for who knows how long..... How do guys get it on 2 points? Seen it happen. Aren't they supposed to start with guys with maximum amount of points?


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

jayzbird said:


> ..... . Aren't they supposed to start with guys with maximum amount of points?


No. That's the way the bear permits are issued, not the elk.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_42807---,00.html

Click on Elk Drawing Stats towards bottom. Then open. Much better way of seeing your chances. Over the past 10 years, close to 40,000 applicants on average each year.

Lots of us have the maximum number of preference points. Many of us will go to our graves with the maximum number of preference points. The odds of being drawn are not good......but if we don't buy the point or play the Pure Michigan Hunt lottery, our chances are zero.

L & O


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## Craig M (May 17, 2000)

And sometimes they get drawn more then once (old way and new way), have heard the stories of that happening too.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

If the clubs up there get a tag allocation, like they are lobbying the NRC for, the odds will get much worse.


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

swampbuck said:


> If the clubs up there get a tag allocation, like they are lobbying the NRC for, the odds will get much worse.



Swamp- can you provide any other info on this? This would be an absolute disaster for our elk herd and the common man trying to pull a once in a lifetime tag. 

To the OP- it is best with the elk lottery to just pay your $4 or $5 every year for the application and assume you will never draw. The odds are stacked against everyone in the drawing. 

The new chances system started in 2003. I did the math one time and with current tag allocations it would have taken something like 72 years to get through even the first group of applicants with the highest number of chances (yourself included). Chances are definitely a better system.


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

srconnell22 said:


> Swamp- can you provide any other info on this? This would be an absolute disaster for our elk herd and the common man trying to pull a once in a lifetime tag.
> 
> To the OP- it is best with the elk lottery to just pay your $4 or $5 every year for the application and assume you will never draw. The odds are stacked against everyone in the drawing.
> 
> The new chances system started in 2003. I did the math one time and with current tag allocations it would have taken something like 72 years to get through even the first group of applicants with the highest number of chances (yourself included). Chances are definitely a better system.






Here's the NRC minutes. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Minutes_MAR2014_453633_7.pdf

Pg4 , 2nd public appearance. Brent Marlatt.

I wish I would have taken notes, the guy made a good presentation. Their claim is tree damage, as they manage their land for timber. He threw out some jaw dropping numbers for their losses due to elk. And has tried harassment etc. I believe they have a legitimate problem.

They want 10% of the tags for owners of 40+ acres in the area. The tribes already get 10%

Pretty impressive fellow, I don't think he's going away. The director instructed Russ mason to get in contact with him.

Another interesting thing is that the MDNR wants to further lower elk numbers. The range is 5-900 elk, they want to manage for 6-650. One of the commissioners questioned why not 800.....

They are also managing bear toward the low end. With really no solid reason


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## kotimaki (Feb 13, 2009)

Im biased here.... Ive farmed in this area most of my life. As far as crop damage goes its fairly easy to obtain deer damage permits and they are effective. If faced with elk damage we are encouraged to harass them. No financial recourse , no damage permits , no sympathy. If one were to try and pasture a herd of free range cattle in the heart of the pigeon river forest what do you think the outcome would be?


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

kotimaki said:


> Im biased here.... Ive farmed in this area most of my life. As far as crop damage goes its fairly easy to obtain deer damage permits and they are effective. If faced with elk damage we are encouraged to harass them. No financial recourse , no damage permits , no sympathy. If one were to try and pasture a herd of free range cattle in the heart of the pigeon river forest what do you think the outcome would be?



I agree that it is a difficult situation. Because of the once in a lifetime, if your very lucky nature of the elk tags. I don't agree with a license allotment.

I don't know the solution, but I hope the DNR and landowners can find one.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

How about letting guys who pull a permit hunt on the land that the Elk are a problem and close some of the areas that they are not ? Instead of When you ask to hunt these Elk you are told NO by the landowner or for a nominal fee you can.


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## kotimaki (Feb 13, 2009)

I've guided since 1985. We have killed a pile of elk on and around my farm. I've never had a problem with helping other hunters , I do try and limit the number of elk hunters at one time though. I don't think I've ever turned anyone away. The problem comes when in July you have a herd camp on your alfalfa and no seasons are open. If you've ever been involved in an elk hunt here you should understand that in the early seasons the core area is off limits. Almost all hunting is in the outlying areas where the elk cause problems.


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## kotimaki (Feb 13, 2009)

Stickbow , If you draw a tag ever , you look me up. I love guiding bowhunters.... since the beginning I've only had two one was a cow tag and the other is the #1 archery bull in the state.


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## stickbow shooter (Dec 19, 2010)

kotimaki said:


> Stickbow , If you draw a tag ever , you look me up. I love guiding bowhunters.... since the beginning I've only had two one was a cow tag and the other is the #1 archery bull in the state.


Thanks for the offer, Hopefully some day I will.


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## DRHUNTER (Sep 15, 2002)

jayzbird said:


> What exactly is thee odds of drawing a permit if anyone knows? Also, when did they start the weighted lottery system? What year? Been applying every year since 1987, yet to be successful. I have had the maximum amount of points for who knows how long..... How do guys get it on 2 points? Seen it happen. Aren't they supposed to start with guys with maximum amount of points?


Quite your crying.. I have applied every year there was a draw since the very first hunt and have never been drawn yet...and I'm running out of time so I feel for ya...:lol:


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## Liver and Onions (Nov 24, 2000)

DRHUNTER said:


> .. I have applied every year there was a draw since the very first hunt and have never been drawn yet...
> ...........


The first 2 hunts were in '64 & '65. You applied those 2 years ? Or did you start applying in '84 when they were able to start the hunts again ? Like quite a few guys, I started applying in '84.

L & O


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't think they will be getting private land permits. That would cause a big stink for the DNR to deal with.
I own a chunk of land in the Atlanta elk country. I would be all for getting better odds to be drawn again. Better yet. I would like my 81 year old father to get drawn.




Keep applying. You never know when you could get lucky. I have had 2 permits and 2 of my sons have drawn permits. You just never know. I'm hoping for #3 to be in the mail soon.


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## dburroak (Aug 10, 2007)

I too have drawn 2 tags `94 and `96 and it`s true you just never know.


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## hitechman (Feb 25, 2002)

Well..................the last 2 posts shoot the "once in a lifetime" theory all to he!!.

Steve


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## srconnell22 (Aug 27, 2007)

hitechman said:


> Well..................the last 2 post shoot the "once in a lifetime" theory all to he!!.
> 
> Steve


Not really. They pulled tags prior to the 2003 structure change. 

Prior to 2003 an "any elk" tag (bull tag) required a 10 year wait and then you could re-apply. An "antlerless only" (cow tag) required only a 1 year wait before you could re-apply. 

From 2003 forward an "any elk" tag is a once in a lifetime tag. Once you get it, you can never apply for an elk tag again. An "antlerless only" tag requires a 10 year wait to re-apply. 

The only way around the current once in a lifetime "any elk" tag is by winning the pure michigan hunt.


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## Enigma (Jan 30, 2006)

Well my son and me put in for elk draw and pure michigan draw today.No big hope's just trying to get lucky.I know a person that has got a bull tag and a cow tag and killed both I beleave any body who has got that or both tags here in michigan should be done.No more elk hunting for them I don't think the systems right.


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## trapper ryan (Jan 24, 2013)

I was lucky enough to draw a tag 2 years ago at 21 years old while my dad's been applying since the 80s. I do think it is a flawed drawing i started applying as soon as I could but no where near as long as him. Just goes to show apply and see what happens with the drawing. But I think it should change in someway for people who've applied longer

Btw shot a 5x5 bull best hunt of my life and got to share it with dad.


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