# Bay city waterfowl show and cwac



## LoBrass

Huntermax-4 said:


> Zn 3 goose?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Sept 22-23, October 6-november 30, December 29-Jan 1 and late season should be Jan 12-Feb 10

pulled over off expressway to type


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## rentalrider

Great job by all that put on a display at the festival. Nice booths, nice turnout by the looks of it. Even got to put a few faces to the screen names  And thanks to those that helped establish dates. That's got to be a thankless job. Even if we don't agree with the outcome everytime, I'm sure we all appreciate your efforts. I'll hunt regardless of season dates, I'm just happy to have the opportunity to hunt here and those of you putting on the youth clinic are assuring we will have sportsmen making sure of this for a long time.


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## craigrh13

That is a crazy late season goose date. Very different then years past. I think I might like that. Maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel, just have to concentrate on geese as I can kiss my great December duck hunting days good bye.


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## anon2192012

LoBrass said:


> Sept 22-23, October 6-november 30, December 29-Jan 1 and late season should be Jan 12-Feb 10
> 
> pulled over off expressway to type


Not that I'm complaining but why the 2 days in Sept? 

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## field-n-feathers

Boone, why not have those 2 days? It's a full one week break, then reopen. Then close for bit again, and then reopen. I think its a fantastic idea. 

I personally thank everyone involved for these dates. All and all, a good compromise.


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## Shiawassee_Kid

Huntermax-4 said:


> Not that I'm complaining but why the 2 days in Sept?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


yeah please don't complain, haha....those 2 days just made me a goose hunter again 

short answer: they had x amount of days to spread out within the limits...they took advantage of it. those 2 days are gonna be a riot IMO.


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## anon2192012

I don't mind them. Just seemed odd is all. The more splits the better imo 

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## anon2192012

Any clue on Allegan GMU dates? 

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## craigrh13

I think the goose dates are great. Like the splits. I also agree the 2 days in September should be fun!


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## highcaliberconsecrator

SW mich gets 2 more days on their split and no early December time and your happy? 

I don't really care about the dates too much but I have seen plenty of lobbying on here for dates in early and mid December and it blows my mind. 


Maybe this thread is young.


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## FullBody

highcaliberconsecrator said:


> SW mich gets 2 more days on their split and no early December time and your happy?
> 
> I don't really care about the dates too much but I have seen plenty of lobbying on here for dates in early and mid December and it blows my mind.
> 
> 
> Maybe this thread is young.


I'm with you.


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## craigrh13

highcaliberconsecrator said:


> SW mich gets 2 more days on their split and no early December time and your happy?
> 
> I don't really care about the dates too much but I have seen plenty of lobbying on here for dates in early and mid December and it blows my mind.
> 
> 
> Maybe this thread is young.


That is the part that made me say ***.


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## LoBrass

With up to 15 early and 92 regular/late goose season days (107 total days max for any species in North America according to the Migratory Bird Treaty Act) we can get all the overlap we want AND add a couple days to fill a long void. I agree, BTW, Sept. 22-23 will be dynamite!!

You all realize that if duck season is open in Michigan you can also hunt geese-virtually EVERYWHERE (exception is the GMU's). That is a first in the modern age.


For the record, Zone 3 took 4 different votes to get a passing compromise. The biggest hang up was Saginaw Bay. Once again, the reason the Bay belongs in Zone 2 (IMO). Water under the bridge.

As far as these season dates are concerned the committee made more compromise than I have EVER seen. Some discussions were heated and reps from each area fought valiantly and made some superb arguments to defend their position. Many brought up conversations they had _yesterday_ which tells me that some of you took my advice and made some phone calls. My vision of an active committee which truly represents the citizens of Michigan has been reached. It is not perfect but we are getting better every year.

I commend everyone for doing their part to promote their positions. 

Michigan is one of 2 states in the flyway to have a CWAC. Dave Luukenon told us that most of their counterparts in other states "have fortunately been able to avoid the hassle of a CWAC". Our DNR staff defended CWAC as a tremendous source of quality input.

My focus will now switch to the Federal level to do everything I can do to improve our options. If I have to attend a Flyway Meeting to get Michigan interests moved forward-so be it. Think big.


TSS Caddis, I think you will find a way to kill a few hens (perhaps even a drake or 2). If you want to hunt more December days, hit Zone 2 on the 15th and 16th. Oh, and find a way to get a seat on CWAC. I still think your perspective would be valuable to the committee.


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## LoBrass

craigrh13 said:


> That is the part that made me say ***.


Come to a meeting some time so you can see the workings. Until you do so you will NEVER understand the challenges and interests which comprise regulation setting.


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## TSS Caddis

I'll kill my birds. I just was thrown back that SW guys seemed accepting of going backward even more. Sure they got their 2 day back but went backward and lost a week in Dec. IMO, they were better off two years ago when they had December days and had the two day.


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## FullBody

TSS Caddis said:


> I'll kill my birds. I just was thrown back that SW guys seemed accepting of going backward even more. Sure they got their 2 day back but went backward and lost a week in Dec. IMO, they were better off two years ago when they went into December and had he two day.


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## just ducky

TSS Caddis said:


> I'll kill my birds. I just was thrown back that SW guys seemed accepting of going backward even more. Sure they got their 2 day back but went backward and lost a week in Dec. IMO, they were better off two years ago when they had December days and had the two day.


I was there to observe. I was giving Shi Kid the blow by blow by text :lol:

The above statement could not be further from the truth. Your "SW guys" did not "accept going backwards". If any of you would have been there, you would've seen just what Lobrass said...the art of compromise. Your SW guys lobbied hard for more days on the back end. I believe they were pushing a proposal which had 9 days on the end. But that would take a bunch more up-front days from the majority of the Zone 3 hunters in the room. So it was clear early on (at least to us it was) that once again they were outnumbered in their thinking. I won't mention names, but one CWAC member from a rather large SE Mich body of water was pushing hard for a 2 day late split, which basically would've gotten you in the SW nothing. And he was pushing hard! Your SW guys and he had some pretty heated discussions back and forth. And as Lobrass said, a couple motions failed. It took one at large CWAC member, and I'll name him because he deserves a lot of credit for extending the olive branch and playing mediator...Scott Berg from DeWitt...to turn the tide and convince the group, including your SW guys, that getting 4 days on the back end was better than 2. Had Scott not put that out there, and given sound reasoning, AND pointed out that it was a true compromise (some called it throwing a bone to the SW guys), I and many others were convinced you would be looking at 2 days right now, not 4. So look at the positive...you got a couple more days at the back end. It really was a win for SW Michigan. Albeit a small win, but a win none the less.


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## just ducky

And by the way, LoBrass deserves a ton of credit for running a damn efficient meeting. It was one of the most no-nonsense CWAC meetings I've attended. Cut through the BS, and got down to business. And managed to keep most in the room from killing each other.

Great job John!


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## just ducky

TSS Caddis said:


> ...lost a week in Dec. IMO, they were better off two years ago when they had December days and had the two day.


Problem today Gene was there was a really strong sentiment to restore the late couple days around Jan 1st. So that was kind of the target date people locked in on. Then the question became how many days to tie into it? This is where the discussion was I described in my previous post...the SW guys started out proposing 9, the SE guy (or several) were pushing for a max of 2 if any at all, and the pendulum swung back around to 4 (thanks mainly to Scott Berg's willingness to craft the compromise between sides). Yeah, it may be nice to talk about more Dec days. But when you have that anchor at the end of Jan 1st, it's pretty hard to do.

Honestly guys this really was the most compromise on all sides that I've seen at a CWAC meeting. No one got everything they wanted, but most got at least some of what they wanted.


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## craigrh13

Thanks to everyone who had anything to do with this. I am very appreciative of what all have done. I guess my couple questions are why did they decide to go with a Oct 6th opener vs Oct 13th, which would have given a week in Dec. I understand it all goes off of the U.P. opener. Was nobody willing to do that? I think having 4 days at the tail should be interesting though, actually do not see a negative in that.


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## T.J.

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> Z1 sept 22 to nov 16 split nov 22-25 . Voted and done
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


GAY!

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## just ducky

Why not Oct 13th? I guess I have my opinions, and don't bomb me (only the messenger of what I believe). At the start of the meeting, it appeared to me that most representing zone 3 had already decided that Oct 6th was preferred. A couple wanted Oct 13th. The DNR made a strong pitch today about allowing as much early season opportunity in as possible for *hunter recruitment and retention*. we've all discussed it before, so let's don't debate it yet again  but there are an awful lot of hunters who only hunt "fair weather", and the nicer the weather, the better the chance they will participate. The fact is, this is the DNR's opinion, and they hold a lot of the cards in this game. The other thing is yes, when zone 1 was set at Sept 22 opener, and the group seemed in agreement for 3 separate openers, it kind of fell into place that way. JMO. I expect LoBrass or one of the other CWAC members will chime in on this.


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## lang49

craigrh13 said:


> I understand it all goes off of the U.P. opener. Was nobody willing to do that? I think having 4 days at the tail should be interesting though, actually do not see a negative in that.


That's the asinine part- no zone opening date should have any impact on the opening date in any other zone. Opening zone 3 on the 13th still wouldve accomplished the (unnecessary) goal of 3 seperate openers.


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## just ducky

lang49 said:


> That's the asinine part- no zone opening date should have any impact on the opening date in any other zone. Opening zone 3 on the 13th still wouldve accomplished the (unnecessary) goal of 3 seperate openers.


assinine or not, it does affect the other zone dates. Come to the meetings and watch


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## just ducky

T.J. said:


> GAY!
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Talk to your UP reps. Was pretty much their wishes.


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## TSS Caddis

just ducky said:


> I was there to observe. I was giving Shi Kid the blow by blow by text :lol:
> 
> The above statement could not be further from the truth.


I mean in this thread.

Seems the harder they fight the more they lose. Typical year they'd have gotten a half dozen days in Dec + 2 days in Jan. this year they get 4 Dec/Jan days. The current strategy seems to not be working in their favor.


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## LoBrass

craigrh13 said:


> Thanks to everyone who had anything to do with this. I am very appreciative of what all have done. I guess my couple questions are why did they decide to go with a Oct 6th opener vs Oct 13th, which would have given a week in Dec. I understand it all goes off of the U.P. opener. Was nobody willing to do that? I think having 4 days at the tail should be interesting though, actually do not see a negative in that.


The UP (2 of 3 reps) wanted the absolute earliest opening day possible. The framework states that the Saturday closest to Sept. 24th may be the earliest day to open duck season. This year that is Sept. 22. The Waterfowl Workgroup (WW) also pointed out the serious freeze concerns of the UP interior as the main reason to open early. Often by Halloween the interior is locked up. 

Following this lead Zone 2 was a relatively smooth fit. The WW gave a recommendation of Sept. 29-Nov. 25 and Dec. 1-2. Going back to input from last year the concensus was that a 5 day shut down was not enough of a break. Ed Rutherford suggested Dec. 15-16 for the split and it was done.

Discussion took place over Oct. 13 as an opener for Zone 3. However, the committee basically agreed that a 2 week lapse between zone 2 and 3 was not the direction we should go. Oct. 6th was looked at from then on as the only real option.

I should point out that the WW had stated to me that they would not be open to an Oct. 13th opener _and_ any more than 2 days MAX on any split. The reason, October days are THAT important to Michigan harvest. So, you can get a feel for the direction we went. From there the conversation was all about the split. 2 days, 4 days, 9 days and other formats were discussed.

You know the rest.


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## Big Frank 25

Any mention of bag?


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## lang49

I appreciate the consideration that was given to the z2 split. I have lobbied hard for several years that the z2 split be greater than 5 days. Thank you.

I do wish that z2 would started a week later but I can live with that given the split.


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## just ducky

Big Frank 25 said:


> Any mention of bag?


I had to leave to go back to the festival and help staff our booth, but I understand the basics for duck anyway...same as last year except 4 bluebill's. But that's just what I heard...LoBrass?


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## just ducky

TSS Caddis said:


> I mean in this thread.
> 
> Seems the harder they fight the more they lose. Typical year they'd have gotten a half dozen days in Dec + 2 days in Jan. this year they get 4 Dec/Jan days.


yeah I get what you mean Gene. Problem was what LoBrass described surrounding the decision to go with Oct 6th for a zone 3 opener. That basically sealed a lot of the fate for SW Mich getting more Dec time (except for at the end)

There are just a ton of moving parts in these discussions each August. Although it's frustrating to a lot of us, unless you actually sit through it, and hear all the various factions chiming in, you really can't fathom how difficult the discussions can be.


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## LoBrass

T.J. said:


> GAY!
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Opinion surveys found 45% of those who hunt the UP predominantly prefered the opener as early as possible. Are we to assume you are not in that camp? 

Your input on this matter leaves some room for interpretation. Just sayin'.


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## TSS Caddis

just ducky said:


> yeah I get what you mean Gene. Problem was what LoBrass described surrounding the decision to go with Oct 6th for a zone 3 opener. That basically sealed a lot of the fate for SW Mich getting more Dec time (except for at the end)
> 
> There are just a ton of moving parts in these discussions each August. Although it's frustrating to a lot of us, unless you actually sit through it, and hear all the various factions chiming in, you really can't fathom how difficult the discussions can be.


I don't personally know one Bay person that wants earlier, so I'm always puzzled by that. I know they say participation is higher early, but is it possible the earlier you start you start going the opposite direction on participation? The typical hunter is going to blow up some puddlers opening weekend and waste 2-3 weeks waiting for more birds. Does that cause any new hunters to lose interest? IMO, better to have opening weekend followed up shortly by fresh birds to keep people interested. This has all been beat to death in the past.


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## lab1

What are the goose dates? Did not see it in this thread. Thanks for working on this guys, I think it is a thank-less job at times. I can live with the framework you have set. Enjoy the hunts guys!


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## LoBrass

just ducky said:


> I had to leave to go back to the festival and help staff our booth, but I understand the basics for duck anyway...same as last year except 4 bluebill's. But that's just what I heard...LoBrass?


Yes, same as last year except for the scaup, we can now shoot 4. Someone suggested we look at allowing 2 hen mallards too. But after about 30 minutes of debate we rested back on 1 hen mallard. That was why the meeting ran long.


Oh, and only 1 longtail................. It was revealed to the committee that some layout shootists were pretty damn hard on them last fall.















:lol: (Really, couldn't resist!)


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## lang49

LoBrass said:


> Opinion surveys found 45% of those who hunt the UP predominantly prefered the opener as early as possible. Are we to assume you are not in that camp?
> 
> Your input on this matter leaves some room for interpretation. Just sayin'.



I'm not trying taunt you but, the flip side of the stat you just quoted indicate that 55% of UP hunter did not prefer the z1 opener as early as possible. So, TJ was evidently in the majority.


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## anon2192012

Allegan GMU? 

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## TSS Caddis

lang49 said:


> I'm not trying taunt you but, the flip side of the stat you just quoted indicate that 55% of UP hunter did not prefer the z1 opener as early as possible. So, TJ was evidently in the majority.


Nov 15th is still prime killing time.


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## anon2192012

I'll agree with the other sw guys that this is kind of a step in the wrong direction. I love late Dec/early Jan hunting so much that I don't mind giving up the dates in early Dec, but the dates two years ago were much better when we had some days in early Dec and also the late split.

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## T.J.

LoBrass said:


> Opinion surveys found 45% of those who hunt the UP predominantly prefered the opener as early as possible. Are we to assume you are not in that camp?
> 
> Your input on this matter leaves some room for interpretation. Just sayin'.


Lol. Early opener is fine but the split should have Ben a week later. Now we got two weeks of no birds.

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## decoy706

Thanks

:lol::lol::lol::yikes:


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## Big Frank 25

goosemanrdk said:


> :sad:
> 
> All I can, is for me personally this is some of the worst season dates in a long time. Now, I will hunt no matter what, and enjoy myself...


You have summed it up nicely! There are those that may not hunt without the early opener. Need to reign them in. Hunter retention!

Be thankful for the resource!

Be safe!

*Enjoy your season!*


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## goosemanrdk

Big Frank 25 said:


> You have summed it up nicely! There are those that may not hunt without the early opener. Need to reign them in. Hunter retention!
> 
> Be thankful for the resource!
> 
> Be safe!
> 
> *Enjoy your season!*


For some reason, I think they are going to hunt whether it is a Oct 6 or an Oct 13 opener.

I am not going to disagree with you in regards to the retention part, but I also have to believe that the "tennis shoe" crowd that everyone wants to retain is most likely not doing much for recruitment. It is the diehard/dedicated guys like myself that are doing the recruitment. Well, what is going to happen when I(am actually startign to do it) take most of my trips out of state(I can go sweat and swat mosquitos in North Dakota or Saskatechewan and see 90% less hunters and 90% more birds). Not going to recruit very many new waterfowl hunters that way. Lets see, taking a newbie out here in Michigan would cost them the cost of a license as I could provide them with a gun(my spare) the ammo, the cammo clothing(my extras) and cover the cost of fuel(as I am going anyways) vs. an out of state trip at the cost of $500 or more just for the trip(feul and lodging) and they still have to buy a license, will need to get a gun, ammo, cammo gear and any other misc. items. How many newbies are going to jump into the sport if that is their option with me?


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## highcaliberconsecrator

The average tennis shoe hunter has no idea the connection between the start date of the season and participation. They have know idea of what CWAC is, what the Feds do, what the DNR does, and what the NRC does. I know plenty of these "casual hunters" and SOME don't even realize the change of one weekend to the next over the years. A LOT just question it and say "I thought it always opened this weekend". They just know come September/October they better start looking at where to buy a duck stamp,a license, and get one of those fold out pamphlets. I think taking these people under our wing and showing them the ropes/putting on a good shoot, having discussions, will and does go way farther than some dates on a calendar. Explain to them how the season comes about, when and why limits change, etc. Our responsibility does not end when we quit for the day. 

4 or 5 days here or there isn't the end of the world, deal with it.


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## lewy149

All I know is I will miss all the openers and with goose the way it is may not shoot a duck unless it drops by on accident.


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## bc21

lewy149 said:


> All I know is I will miss all the openers and with goose the way it is *may not shoot a duck unless it drops by on accident*.


I find this VERY hard to believe.


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## Chemicoducker

So, what I gather is, some like it warm, some like it cold. Some want an earlier opener, some want a later opener. Some hunt Sag Bay, others hunt Lake Michigan. Some hunt fields, some hunt marshes. Some shoot only geese, some shoot only ducks. 

Here's my take, and it's only my opinion. I sit at the CWAC meetings and we hash out what we feel is in the better interest of all hunters, based on information we receive from the hunters. Not specific groups, organizations, or locales. We take in the science from the DNR, the wishes of the waterfowlers across the state, then try to make a recommendation based on the information we have. Will we please everybody? Certainly not, and that's okay. People are allowed to have varying opinions and desires. It's what makes this country great. But when it's all said and done, we need to pull together as a waterfowling community and support each other. The anti hunters are watching us, just like terrorist sleeper cells. When they see there is enough dissention amongst us, they'll strike, hitting us so hard we'll never know what happened.

Let's enjoy the resources we have, shoot whatever species we choose, when we choose (during open season and within the bag limits of course), and have a great time. 

I enjoy serving on CWAC, and take my responsibilities seriously, as do the others on the committee. The DNR looks for CWAC members each year as terms expire. If you are interested, contact the DNR Wildlife Division. It is truly an opportunity to let the voices of waterfowlers be heard. The DNR has stated they are happy to have a CWAC, and they truly value our input. They don't need CWAC, there is no requirement to have CWAC, and it could all go away with the stroke of a pen. With economics and budgets not being friendly to the DNR, we are extremely fortunate to have DNR leadership that understand and appreciate waterfowling traditions and opinions. 

I hope you all can enjoy your times afield with your hunting companions and trusty retrievers. Shoot straight and be safe!


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## smoke

Chemicoducker said:


> So, what I gather is, some like it warm, some like it cold. Some want an earlier opener, some want a later opener. Some hunt Sag Bay, others hunt Lake Michigan. Some hunt fields, some hunt marshes. Some shoot only geese, some shoot only ducks.
> 
> Here's my take, and it's only my opinion. I sit at the CWAC meetings and we hash out what we feel is in the better interest of all hunters, based on information we receive from the hunters. Not specific groups, organizations, or locales. We take in the science from the DNR, the wishes of the waterfowlers across the state, then try to make a recommendation based on the information we have. Will we please everybody? Certainly not, and that's okay. People are allowed to have varying opinions and desires. It's what makes this country great. But when it's all said and done, we need to pull together as a waterfowling community and support each other. The anti hunters are watching us, just like terrorist sleeper cells. When they see there is enough dissention amongst us, they'll strike, hitting us so hard we'll never know what happened.
> 
> Let's enjoy the resources we have, shoot whatever species we choose, when we choose (during open season and within the bag limits of course), and have a great time.
> 
> I enjoy serving on CWAC, and take my responsibilities seriously, as do the others on the committee. The DNR looks for CWAC members each year as terms expire. If you are interested, contact the DNR Wildlife Division. It is truly an opportunity to let the voices of waterfowlers be heard. The DNR has stated they are happy to have a CWAC, and they truly value our input. They don't need CWAC, there is no requirement to have CWAC, and it could all go away with the stroke of a pen. With economics and budgets not being friendly to the DNR, we are extremely fortunate to have DNR leadership that understand and appreciate waterfowling traditions and opinions.
> 
> I hope you all can enjoy your times afield with your hunting companions and trusty retrievers. Shoot straight and be safe!


X2 - I served for 7 or 8 years on CWAC. It was an experiance I will not forget. These people are saddled with a difficult situation each and every year. How do we make the majority happy? The majority being the key word here. Not the people who frequent the forum on the waterfowl section. These are what I would consider the minority. 

There are close to 50,000 liciensed waterfowl hunters in this state (which btw is down considerably from the past) How many forum members are on the waterfowl forum here? Not sure; but the majority are not here. 

You will *NEVER MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY*. Thats just human nature, so my plan and my suggestion to all is; enjoy the time you get to spend outdoors pursueing your passion of hunting waterfowl. Go where the ducks are and the season is open, there are plenty of places to hunt other than *your field*, *your duck hole you always hunt* or wherever it may be. Scout, by boat, truck or hell an air plane whatever works best.

There are 3 friggin zones to scout and hunt. You can hunt waterfowl of some sort from September 1st until Feburary 10th somewhere in this great ole state! Find some birds and go hunt em.......and the most important part.......*HAVE FUN* that's what it's supposed to be about!

Forget body count or how *YOU* may percieve that *YOU* got screwed by the dates, bag limits, zone boundries, weather etc. etc. Use some of the energy it takes to get all jacked up about things you can do nothing about now; and use that energy scouting, re-rigging your spread and getting ready for the season. Because one never knows this could possibly be your last season. Look at what happened to Sean last year @ FP! 

Go out and have a great time, doing what you love and have a burning passion for *hunting waterfowl*. 

Smoke ................off his stump...........for now


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## Shawn S

Well said x's 10 Smoke Master!!!

Enjoy what you can and how you can. Waterfowl OPPORTUNITY in the state of Michigan is at an all time high....60 days of duck season....107 days of goose season. If you aren't pleased by that I don't know if it's at all possible.

With all the drama, what's going to happen when we get a 30 day duck season? I feel blessed we have the opportunities we have. 

Shawn Stahl


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## Shiawassee_Kid

Shawn S said:


> Well said x's 10 Smoke Master!!!
> 
> Enjoy what you can and how you can. Waterfowl OPPORTUNITY in the state of Michigan is at an all time high....60 days of duck season....107 days of goose season. If you aren't pleased by that I don't know if it's at all possible.
> 
> With all the drama, what's going to happen when we get a 30 day duck season? I feel blessed we have the opportunities we have.
> 
> Shawn Stahl


hard to beat. thats for sure.

welcome aboard Shawn!


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## LakeEffectMDHA

Shawn S said:


> Enjoy what you can and how you can. Waterfowl OPPORTUNITY in the state of Michigan is at an all time high....60 days of duck season....107 days of goose season. If you aren't pleased by that I don't know if it's at all possible.
> 
> With all the drama, what's going to happen when we get a 30 day duck season? I feel blessed we have the opportunities we have.
> 
> Shawn Stahl




Good to see you on here 
Lake Effect gang


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## Dahmer

Shawn S said:


> Well said x's 10 Smoke Master!!!
> 
> Enjoy what you can and how you can. Waterfowl OPPORTUNITY in the state of Michigan is at an all time high....60 days of duck season....107 days of goose season. If you aren't pleased by that I don't know if it's at all possible.
> 
> With all the drama, what's going to happen when we get a 30 day duck season? I feel blessed we have the opportunities we have.
> 
> Shawn Stahl


I remember 30 day seasons not alot of time to chase ducks. Im not happy with the season dates for zone 3 but like others have said it could be worse. Grin and bare it. Ill be chasing waterfowl some where in the state.

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## smoke

If the above post didn't give you enough opportunities; We live in a pretty big country. Take advantage of the hunting opportunities out of state. There are countless numbers of them. If you want to shoot a mature breeding plumage duck your chances of doing that in Michigan are slim anyway. 

Go out to Ca. and shoot yourself a sprig with a 10-12" tail or go South to Ark. Ms, or La. and shoot all the wood duck drakes you want 90% of them are nicer than anything you'll shoot here in Michigan. You can get some awesome fully plumed drake teal as well the drakes mallards down there are pretty nice too.

Or go way South of the border and kill some breeding plumage birds in Mexico or even above the line in Texas in mid to late January. The opportunities are endless my friends, you just need to want to do it, be able to take a few days off work and spend a bit of money to keep the economy rolling. Simple really, I do it quite often and it is a lot of fun getting out of your little egg shell and becoming a traveling water-fowler. 

Thanks Stahl you and I agree more than not brother.

Smoke


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## Big Frank 25

There are those that are not happy unless they have something to complain about.:yikes:


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## anon2192012

Shawn S said:


> Well said x's 10 Smoke Master!!!
> 
> Enjoy what you can and how you can. Waterfowl OPPORTUNITY in the state of Michigan is at an all time high....60 days of duck season....107 days of goose season. If you aren't pleased by that I don't know if it's at all possible.
> 
> With all the drama, what's going to happen when we get a 30 day duck season? I feel blessed we have the opportunities we have.
> 
> Shawn Stahl


Shawn's on here? Uh oh!  

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Shawn S

Huntermax-4 said:


> Shawn's on here? Uh oh!
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Since December of 2008!!! I don't know why my post count got deleted...haven't posted in a long time, but do check in from time to time.

We should feel fortunate to have the CWAC as most states don't...albeit I do know most of the people in the DNR that help put on CWAC and come up with the dates. These people are in somewhat of a no-win situation....please the minority (hardcore hunters) and lose hunter recruitment. Please big water diver hunters and the wood duck hunters are mad. Honestly I trust them to do the right thing for the resource first and the hunter second. It seems to me a lot of hunters are self serving in their thoughts...all some look at is harvesting more and not protecting the resource for the future.

Ducks will always seem more plentiful when the season is closed....they react to pressure...push and they hide. The more things get froze the more restricted the habitat and easier to find. Increased mortality through hunting pressure WILL lead to reduced bag limits and season dates. Our season are set to manage a resource not annihilate it to extinction. We have this same argument every year and it gets old. Get out when you can, take a kid and enjoy the sun rise...if your not seeing birds then get out and look for them they are around.

Long term data suggest that most of our ducks migrate into lower MI by mid October to mid November...that's the peak and historically hasn't changed. From there food availability and pressure will dictate how long most puddle ducks will stick around....but by mid December the vast majority of puddlers have pushed through. It's not that our mallard numbers are higher in late December and early January it's that their open water habitat and feeding areas are more concentrated and they group up.

Shawn Stahl


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## Shiawassee_Kid

Shawn S said:


> Since December of 2008!!! I don't know why my post count got deleted...haven't posted in a long time, but do check in from time to time.
> 
> We should feel fortunate to have the CWAC as most states don't...albeit I do know most of the people in the DNR that help put on CWAC and come up with the dates. These people are in somewhat of a no-win situation....please the minority (hardcore hunters) and lose hunter recruitment. Please big water diver hunters and the wood duck hunters are mad. Honestly I trust them to do the right thing for the resource first and the hunter second. It seems to me a lot of hunters are self serving in their thoughts...all some look at is harvesting more and not protecting the resource for the future.
> 
> Ducks will always seem more plentiful when the season is closed....they react to pressure...push and they hide. The more things get froze the more restricted the habitat and easier to find. Increased mortality through hunting pressure WILL lead to reduced bag limits and season dates. Our season are set to manage a resource not annihilate it to extinction. We have this same argument every year and it gets old. Get out when you can, take a kid and enjoy the sun rise...if your not seeing birds then get out and look for them they are around.
> 
> Long term data suggest that most of our ducks migrate into lower MI by mid October to mid November...that's the peak and historically hasn't changed. From there food availability and pressure will dictate how long most puddle ducks will stick around....but by mid December the vast majority of puddlers have pushed through. It's not that our mallard numbers are higher in late December and early January it's that their open water habitat and feeding areas are more concentrated and they group up.
> 
> Shawn Stahl


shhhh yer gonna shock people around here with making all kinds of sense. :evilsmile

and yes i do remember you posting a little bit back in the day and wondered about your post count as well.


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## lewy149

Shawn S said:


> Since December of 2008!!! I don't know why my post count got deleted...haven't posted in a long time, but do check in from time to time.
> 
> We should feel fortunate to have the CWAC as most states don't...albeit I do know most of the people in the DNR that help put on CWAC and come up with the dates. These people are in somewhat of a no-win situation....please the minority (hardcore hunters) and lose hunter recruitment. Please big water diver hunters and the wood duck hunters are mad. Honestly I trust them to do the right thing for the resource first and the hunter second. It seems to me a lot of hunters are self serving in their thoughts...all some look at is harvesting more and not protecting the resource for the future.
> 
> Ducks will always seem more plentiful when the season is closed....they react to pressure...push and they hide. The more things get froze the more restricted the habitat and easier to find. Increased mortality through hunting pressure WILL lead to reduced bag limits and season dates. Our season are set to manage a resource not annihilate it to extinction. We have this same argument every year and it gets old. Get out when you can, take a kid and enjoy the sun rise...if your not seeing birds then get out and look for them they are around.
> 
> Long term data suggest that most of our ducks migrate into lower MI by mid October to mid November...that's the peak and historically hasn't changed. From there food availability and pressure will dictate how long most puddle ducks will stick around....but by mid December the vast majority of puddlers have pushed through. It's not that our mallard numbers are higher in late December and early January it's that their open water habitat and feeding areas are more concentrated and they group up.
> 
> Shawn Stahl


Blasphemy!!! That can't possibly be true!! ! There's no data or even logic here!!


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## Bellyup

One thing I have learned about waterfowling in MI. It does not pay to invest into the politcal side of it, meaning CWAC, NRC, Etc. I can honestly think it is time to switch gears soon. It has become more of a burden than a hobby. I would rather enjoy some quaulity hunts in other states that don't close during prime time and feed my desire to hunt fowl. I am thinking quality over quantity. And MI does not have the best quality duck hunting. It has a few hot times then it is the same old story. I have lobbied my CWAC reps, and pissed many of them off with my desires to have a season in zone 3 the way the birds pattern. Some things never change. Fight the fights you can win. And this is not one of them. 

Bellyache out.


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## LoBrass

Bellyup said:


> One thing I have learned about waterfowling in MI. It does not pay to invest into the politcal side of it, meaning CWAC, NRC, Etc. I can honestly think it is time to switch gears soon. It has become more of a burden than a hobby. I would rather enjoy some quaulity hunts in other states that don't close during prime time and feed my desire to hunt fowl. I am thinking quality over quantity. And MI does not have the best quality duck hunting. It has a few hot times then it is the same old story. I have lobbied my CWAC reps, and pissed many of them off with my desires to have a season in zone 3 the way the birds pattern. Some things never change. Fight the fights you can win. And this is not one of them.
> 
> *I sure do appreciate that LoBrass dude though, he's a stud hunter who really cares about me and whatever he says I will go along with!!*
> 
> Bellyache out.




Thank you for the kind words Bellyup!:evil:

Quality? 

Private land, Zone 3 mid season. Any questions?








If you can't smile and have fun with all this then ya can't do anything!


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## Shiawassee_Kid

Bellyup said:


> One thing I have learned about waterfowling in MI. It does not pay to invest into the politcal side of it, meaning CWAC, NRC, Etc. I can honestly think it is time to switch gears soon. It has become more of a burden than a hobby. I would rather enjoy some quaulity hunts in other states that don't close during prime time and feed my desire to hunt fowl. I am thinking quality over quantity. And MI does not have the best quality duck hunting. It has a few hot times then it is the same old story. I have lobbied my CWAC reps, and pissed many of them off with my desires to have a season in zone 3 the way the birds pattern. Some things never change. Fight the fights you can win. And this is not one of them.
> 
> Bellyache out.


i wondered how long it would take. seriously i will post what i posted on the other site. you can lobby all you want and the simple problem is hunter numbers in SW michigan. your fighting an uphill battle. Its not that your reps aren't listening....they are. You can't beat shear numbers.



> peak migration bay is last week of october, first week of november. (dead middle of season).
> 
> and if you want to get technical.
> blue wings late september (after 15th usually)
> greenwings early to mid october
> mallards last week october-first week of november
> wigeon middle of october
> gadwal all of october
> main woody migration is before halloween
> main redhead migration is 1st couple weeks of season
> bluebills are in november
> cans are in early november for about 2 weeks
> golden eye and buffies are mainly last 3 weeks of november
> mergs november
> 
> these are my observations from hunting the bay and srsga for 30 years. hasn't changed all that much. SW migrations are completely different but this should give you an idea why the dates are the way they are. simple fact there are more hunters on the bay and se michigan than sw. until sw gets their own zone or we get a 75 day season, i dont see much changing.


the beef of it is, majority of the ducks pass down the east side flyway (where majority of hunters hunt) last week of october and first week of november. those 2 weeks are directly in the middle of the season. SW got 4 days bone thrown to them. it is what it is.


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## goosemanrdk

Big Frank 25 said:


> There are those that are not happy unless they have something to complain about.:yikes:


I will not disagree with anyone about the abundant apportunity that our great state has. However, i also don't feel that it is right for ANYONE to be condescending towards myself or others that may be upset about a small change that may affect them and their hunting. Just cause the season is overall great doesn't mean a person can not be upset/disappointed in certain aspects of the season. Ther may just be WAY more to the rationale for their disappointment and being upset than you know about.

Take a look at what I am most upset about: 
I personally have lost something that I was looking forward to hoepfully getting to do at a place that is a MAJOR PART OF MY HUNTING HERITAGE!!!!!!!!!! Read that carefully, as i am speaking about that chance at the taxidermy quality black duck from the Waste water. For me, the Muskegon Waste Water is a major part of my waterfowling past. I grew up/ learned much of my waterfowl hunting at that place. I learned to hunt there with my Grand Pappy(whom is no longer alive), my uncle(who was like a second father to me and is no longer alive) and my father. I remember learning about the comradire of a hunting buddy smoking a drake mallard out from under you at the tender age of 10 when my father did it to my Grandpa. Fondly remember watching that drake fall from the sky flopping just like the ducks fall on the nintendo game duck hunt. Fondly remember the dog retreiving it, and the excitement on Dad and Grandpa's faces when he was banded. Remeber fondly them explaining the banding thing, and all of the ribbing that they gave each other over the way that it was harvested by dad. Oh ya, that drake was banded in Saskatewan.
I remember, as a result of my dad being in a bad car accident when I was only 10, being the one that had to do ALL of the heaving lifting if we were going to go hunting as dad was not even able play a simple game of catch with me. With that came at trip where this kid, who was lucky to go 80lb's soaking wet was carrying a bag full of way to many decoys on his back and fell over. I rolled right over on my back and looked like a turtle placed on his back. Grandpa laughed his backside off, and dad still talks about that event to this day. Oh ya, this kid at 13 shot the only goose that the entire area harvested for the day. I still enjoy to this day hearing about one of the DNRE employees that talks about remembering me first hunting there and not even being able to see over the counter. That was almost 25years ago.
There are MANY more memories that define my hunting that come from growing up hunting that area.
Now, I am a realist and I realized a few years ago, after the Waste water lost the millions of gallons of water from the closure of the Sippie paper mill in Muskegon, that hunting at the WW was on borrowed time. The county at some point was going to look elsewhere for income(industrail park, windmills) and that would be the end of hunting there. For the last couple of years I have hoped, for the right draw, or to actually be cloudy for the ducks to fly on the re-opener in December so that I could possibly harvest that nice Mature Drake Blackduck that would be as close perfect in condition as possible to comemmorate those memories of Grandpa and Uncle Garry. So this year, coupled with the knowledge that the WW will be a thing of the past for me soone anyways, I was now hit with some season dates that will give me almost zero opportunity to harvest that bird as the WW will close for ducks on the 15th of November and never re-open.

Sorry, had to take a little break there from typing this to wipe away some the tears I developed while trying to share this you. Hopefully you understand from this just what those 2 measly days may have meant for me as I am sure you have ALL lost some sort hunting spot/opportunity that had this much meaning to you.

I do truely understand why/how this occured, especially having been in CWAC, but all of this "reasons/rationale" doesn't make it any easier a pill to swallow for me at this moment or for this season. From my seat, yes there are an exhaustive amount of other opprortunities here in this state or in other states, but I lost 2 days I have ancipated hunting(and trying to collect a trophy), not beacuse the sun shined to bright or I got drawn bad, but because some others guys wanted to shoot a whole bunch of brown ducks while swatting mosquitos, or others wanted to hope for the right weather to knock the birds silly for 4 days in late December/early January.

I am sure, based on some of the most recent posts about all of the ample opportunity/migration patterns/recruitment/retention etc I will get lambasted for this as it sound's as if I am supposed to instantly buck up and deal with this. I guess I am not allowed to feel a little sorrow or loss for what has occured to my hunting season. I am just a complainer.

I will hunt this year, I will enjoy the season, but there is, for me at least, going to be a little less enthusiasm for a little bit as I adjust to this and get used to the fact that the WW will probably be closed to hunting before the calendar rolls around to allow for a couple of duck days in early December.

So, this year when you are shooting those early brown ducks and swatting mosquitos or pounding the crap out of the mallards on the Mon and Tues of the 4 day hunt, please take a moment and tip your hat for my Grandpa and Uncle Garry and onyone else that you know that created/passed on the hunting heritage to you.:sad:


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## Quackaddicted

Hey Smoke. You nailed it buddy! No more need be said. Get ahold of me if your interested in a trip to the duck farm. 

Bud


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## TSS Caddis

Shawn S said:


> Well said x's 10 Smoke Master!!!
> 
> Enjoy what you can and how you can. Waterfowl OPPORTUNITY in the state of Michigan is at an all time high....60 days of duck season....107 days of goose season. If you aren't pleased by that I don't know if it's at all possible.
> 
> With all the drama, what's going to happen when we get a 30 day duck season? I feel blessed we have the opportunities we have.
> 
> Shawn Stahl


I hear once you start gunning divers/sea ducks, Russ resets your post count 

Sort of like being born again.


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## oldsalt mi

Do you guys think with two flyways going through are state that this could be causing the east and the west to be migrating at different time?


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## highcaliberconsecrator

TSS Caddis said:


> I hear once you start gunning divers/sea ducks, Russ resets your post count
> 
> Sort of like being born again.


 
Little bit o' blasphemy...but I like it!!!!!!!!!:lol: Go ahead and roll me back!!!


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## Bellyup

Since the SW guys have been compromising for a good number of years, would it be possible to try something like this:

This year we gave up the days in Dec. most of us SW's wanted. 

Next year open up third week in oct run it through. Next year go back to this years dates. Do a trade off each year. That would be a real good compromise I think. We each give something up, and we each gain something every year. 

Rob, I understand your traditions and memories. I know it all to well. 

LoBrass, I too can get lucky and get close to a limit mid season. Like I said, you have to get lucky to find them, and then get even luckier to get permission. I obviously lack what you have. I hunt more public areas than I do private. Simply becasue the deer hunting around me is the best the state has to offer apparently. Real tough to gain access. it can be done, and I do have a few spots, but they are hit & miss with the push of birds. I know your feelings are that the SW dates should be earlier, you have said that in a PM to me. Like I said earlier, I am concentrating on the fights I stand half a chance of winning, and fighting you and the CWAC is not a winning proposition. Like the Kid said, we are to few to amount to anything.


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## just ducky

Bellyup said:


> Since the SW guys have been compromising for a good number of years, would it be possible to try something like this:
> 
> This year we gave up the days in Dec. most of us SW's wanted.
> 
> Next year open up third week in oct run it through. Next year go back to this years dates. Do a trade off each year. That would be a real good compromise I think. We each give something up, and we each gain something every year....


While it may sound "fair" to do something like this, you obviously know the criticism an alternating opener like this would have. There was a lot...I mean a lot...of discussion at CWAC for setting a consistent opening Saturday each year, so that people could plan vacations and time off, and so local businesses would be able to plan. So I can guarantee a proposal like yours, no matter how fair it may sound, would never fly. At least not with the current CWAC members, or the current DNR staff. Just the facts...

And as far as a third week of October opener, from the comments I've heard, including the DNR's wish to get as much participation as possible from the so-called "tennis shoe" crowd, the only way I could see that week being approved is if we go back to being allowed a 30 day season from the feds. Reason is the DNR's own data on waterfowl migration dates through the state indicate the peak is something like the third week of October through the first 10 days of November. Don't quote me...but that's close to what they showed again Saturday. And if we only had 30 days, it may make sense to open the third week of October and run 30 days. But in a 60 day option, or possibly even a 45 day, I just can't see the required number of members going for it.


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## Bellyup

Would the CWAC Reps that did lobby the other CWAC members for a later start date in OCT Zone 3, and more days into Dec please PM me, or email me the reasons given to not do this. 
[email protected]

I don't think the meeting minutes are available. I am looking for the reps that listened to the SW guys and got arguments as to why it should not be.


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## PhilBernardi

Bellyup said:


> Would the CWAC Reps that did lobby the other CWAC members for a later start date in OCT Zone 3, and more days into Dec please PM me, or email me the reasons given to not do this.
> [email protected]
> 
> I don't think the meeting minutes are available. I am looking for the reps that listened to the SW guys and got arguments as to why it should not be.



One reason as I recall the discussion (as I listened from the peanut gallery): not wanting to lose dates later into the year beyond the 4 days they were giving up (i.e., wanting those days on the front end - literally in this case).


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## Shiawassee_Kid

Bellyup said:


> Would the CWAC Reps that did lobby the other CWAC members for a later start date in OCT Zone 3, and more days into Dec please PM me, or email me the reasons given to not do this.
> [email protected]
> 
> I don't think the meeting minutes are available. I am looking for the reps that listened to the SW guys and got arguments as to why it should not be.


i'm confused by what your asking?

i believe there was 3 reps from SW and all of them were holding out for later start and/or more days in december/split.

in any vote you reach a point of stalemate where neither side is gonna concede, this is when scott came up with a compromise and added 2 days to the late split...i know a bunch of bay/se guys that freaked over those 2 days. The votes done...if your gonna go complain to your sw reps, they are just gonna say they tried (they did) they know their guys want december days...its pretty obvious.

your other option they coulda went with is oct 6th and 2 day split? woulda that have worked for you?


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## Tom_Miller

_Originally posted by *Just Ducky: *_
_There was a lot...I mean a lot...of discussion at CWAC for setting a consistent opening Saturday each year, so that people could plan vacations and time off, and so local businesses would be able to plan._

I would love to see a consistent opener. I have to guess every year when scheduling my vacation in January. This year I guessed October 13 and was wrong, too late to change it now. I hope a consistent opener gets some serious consideration in the future. Either way, I will enjoy this coming season.


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## limige

I'm also for setting a consistent openers. The dates this year look decent. I would like to see the split later in December though.


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## PhilBernardi

Having consistant openers is dependent on the federal framework opening date criteria, and the federal framework opening date criteria is not stable enough (for whatever time span you may want) to make MI standard opening dates.

Personally, this issue is not worth the bother given other issues in the queue like a having a teal season, more redheads, etc.


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## LoBrass

Bellyup said:


> LoBrass, I too can get lucky and get close to a limit mid season. Like I said, you have to get lucky to find them, and then get even luckier to get permission. I obviously lack what you have. I hunt more public areas than I do private. Simply becasue the deer hunting around me is the best the state has to offer apparently. Real tough to gain access. it can be done, and I do have a few spots, but they are hit & miss with the push of birds. I know your feelings are that the SW dates should be earlier, you have said that in a PM to me. Like I said earlier, I am concentrating on the fights I stand half a chance of winning, and fighting you and the CWAC is not a winning proposition. Like the Kid said, we are to few to amount to anything.


While I certainly have my own constituents whom I represent on that committee, I have TRULY tried to listen, communicate and work with all the hunters within this state. A good chairman must be as impartial as possible to be able to understand the concerns of everyone involved. Every single communication sent my way has gotten a response. I have taken it upon myself to educate everyone about the process involved in regulation setting. 

Someone last year showed up to an NRC meeting and it got a little heated. However, that person's concerns were heard loud and clear and steps were taken to address those concerns. The season is more favorable to that person this year because of that effort. I even took a drive to SW Michigan last winter to see for myself what all the hype was about. Know what? I saw waterfowl in the places he told me I'd see them.

We have a big state with countless micro-environments. With the current framework there will never be perfection.

My organization was good with a late November closure to give a 9 day season starting Dec. 22 and going to Dec. 30. The northern Z3 guys would have none of it though. Sorry, I did my best to try to appease everyone and we recommended what we did after considerable debate and compromise.

Your SW MI reps fought a tough fight. At one point it began to get heated in that room. It was obvious that a 2 day late split was not going to get approved and it was because of your reps. 

The MDNR also has a say you know. They want as many October days as possible and will defend that to the end. 

The current season recommendation is a good compromise and we will continue to work to make you a happier hunter. 

Oh, BTW, I ain't lucky :coolgleam.


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## LoBrass

PhilBernardi said:


> Having consistant openers is dependent on the federal framework opening date criteria, and the federal framework opening date criteria is not stable enough (for whatever time span you may want) to make MI standard opening dates.
> 
> Personally, this issue is not worth the bother given other issues in the queue like a having a teal season, more redheads, etc.


Agree.

CWAC should spend less time worrying about season dates and more time writing letters or visiting the Flyway Meetings to promote teal seasons, harvest strategies for ALL ducks and getting longer seasons in general. This was never even considered since I have sat on CWAC. It's being considered now. We had NEVER written a letter to the Feds since I had sat on CWAC. We have written letters now.

CWAC's voice is getting louder and will continue to get louder if I have anything to say about it.


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## anon2192012

I still think the only perfect options are a 75 day season or the "pick your own dates" proposal that was floating around here a while back. 

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## just ducky

Huntermax-4 said:


> ...or the "pick your own dates" proposal that was floating around here a while back.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


It was mine, I still have the proposal, and due to opposition, no I'm not putting it back on the table any time soon (although I still love the concept).


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## just ducky

LoBrass said:


> My organization was good with a late November closure to give a 9 day season starting Dec. 22 and going to Dec. 30. The northern Z3 guys would have none of it though....


I'll be honest enough to say the Shiawassee Flats Citizens and Hunters Association would've gone to the mat against the 9 day proposal. There were several of us in attendance, including our president, we discussed it amongst ourselves and there was no support whatsoever. We would've made sure that our CWAC representative voted against that...not that I think we would've had to encourage that...right Bud?

And just like you SW guys look at it from your perspective, we at Shiawassee have to look at it from ours, and that of our members. Taking that many extra opportunity days away in November would be a huge hit for us to accept. HOWEVER just so you know, after a bit of quick discussion, we were unanimously in favor of giving a little...a compromise of sorts...when the proposal for four days at the end came up. So we feel we, as well as lots of others, gave a little. Not as far as you would like, but some anyway.


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## field-n-feathers

just ducky said:


> HOWEVER just so you know, after a bit of quick discussion, we were unanimously in favor of giving a little...a compromise of sorts...when the proposal for four days at the end came up. So we feel we, as well as lots of others, gave a little. Not as far as you would like, but some anyway.


JD, I thank those from SRSGA that did compromise and voted for the late 4 day split. These 4 days will be "epic" for some of us. In all sincerity, I appreciate the fact that those of you who were in favor of an earlier season gave a little bit to those of us who wanted a later season. If I could have those 4 days every year, I wouldn't care what you guys do with the other 56.


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