# Wolf Hunting the Next Dove hunting debate



## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

kzoofisher said:


> Boy: "Daddy, what is the number of wolves the DNR wants in Michigan?"
> 
> Father: "They don't have a number, that's one of the things they are going to study now that wolves are a game animal."
> 
> ...


It would be nice if the wolf lovers would drop their same old ignorant and stupid rhetoric too. But what the hell do we know?


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

swampbuck said:


> Quite frankly, Hunters are such a small minority of voter's that our votes dont even matter.


This is true. Non-hunters out-number hunters in this State almost 8 to 1. That Dove Bill never had a chance in hell the way the NRC/DNR/Whoever went about it. 

I have no interest in hunting wolves, but I do like the approach the State is taking regarding hunting them.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

I just read an interesting new article where DNA testing has proven that the three recent "wolves" that were caught in the Lower Peninsula were all actually coyotes with some wolf DNA in them, which was said to be common in the Lower Peninsula. The DNA testing is so accurate that they can even tell how long ago the cross breeding occurred, in some cases 10 to 20 years ago. The article also went on to say that many of wolves and coyotes in the U.P. are also coyote/wolf hybrids. They are even considering reclassifying the coyote species in this region because of the wolf DNA in most of them. The real interesting thing is that federal wolf protection only extends to pure wolves and not to hybrids. This is going to cause all kinds of confusion and law enforcement problems when wolves are hunted or otherwise killed.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I really think killing a wolf will be a lot harder than many sportsman think. Idaho has a population similar in size to what Michigan has. They sell way more than 30,000 tags annually, hunters and trappers combined only take about 350 wolves. Their state is broken up into management units and stops when that allotment is filled.

I hope Michigan follows their lead in trying to bring their numbers down in a hurry. I would like to see Michigan put on wolf trapping classes too.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Trophy Specialist said:


> I just read an interesting new article where DNA testing has proven that the three recent "wolves" that were caught in the Lower Peninsula were all actually coyotes with some wolf DNA in them, which was said to be common in the Lower Peninsula. The DNA testing is so accurate that they can even tell how long ago the cross breeding occurred, in some cases 10 to 20 years ago. The article also went on to say that many of wolves and coyotes in the U.P. are also coyote/wolf hybrids. They are even considering reclassifying the coyote species in this region because of the wolf DNA in most of them. The real interesting thing is that federal wolf protection only extends to pure wolves and not to hybrids. This is going to cause all kinds of confusion and law enforcement problems when wolves are hunted or otherwise killed.


I do remember an article last year about the Eastern Wolf was thought to be mixed with the wolves from the Western Great Lakes. The wolf lovers were wringing their hands in anticipation of the our wolf not being delisted. I think the older gentleman from Wisconsin that shot the wolf at his camp around Escanaba a few years ago was let go because it wasn't more than 95% wolf?


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

According to the Humane Society they only need 225,000 petition signatures by the end of March to put this issue on the 2014 ballot.


https://secure.humanesociety.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=5829&s_src=sh_fbar5829


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## TrekJeff (Sep 7, 2007)

The idea of allowing wildlife management issues to come to a vote of the general public needs to stop. No Upper vote, no troll vote, NO VOTE. Put something on a ballot when it comes to killing poor helpless cute cuddly critters, and it will bad news for sportsmen. Doves are a perfect example of what happens when wildlife management is put in the hands of the GP. If deer hunting was placed on the ballot, I'd bet we'd be surprised on the vote count.:SHOCKED:

The natural resources of this State are held in trust by the State for the people of the State. Let the State and Fed manage, F'the ballot.


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## Valerie Nixon (Jan 16, 2013)

Biggbear said:


> According to the Humane Society they only need 225,000 petition signatures by the end of March to put this issue on the 2014 ballot. https://secure.humanesociety.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=5829&s_src=sh_fbar5829


1) Why 225,000? I am no lawyer but I look up MI veto referendum and it is supposed to need 5% of those ;ast voting for governor (168,000 ). Are they trying for their own voter initiated statute too?

2) This petition would stop the law changing the non game wolf classing until 11/2014.

3) the northern LP is getting in so sorry a state for game with senile sterile forests that I've seen them called biological deserts and want to use bad language. There will be a competing statute from hunters we will put on ballot if this passes, does it cost much more to put two petitions on than one? I would like to see different game management in the NLP let it be either like the south or the UP and that could be said to be making more deer for future wolves there, and another petition for a dove hunt vote after 6 years of no dove hunt problems in MN and WI and hunters making more wolves (???) would it pass? Which way would either move the vote?


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> I do remember an article last year about the Eastern Wolf was thought to be mixed with the wolves from the Western Great Lakes. The wolf lovers were wringing their hands in anticipation of the our wolf not being delisted. I think the older gentleman from Wisconsin that shot the wolf at his camp around Escanaba a few years ago was let go because it wasn't more than 95% wolf?


When they relocated the wolves to Yellowstone, they had to search all over to locate "pure" wolves that did not have coyote DNA. They ended up using wolves from northern Canada that are a subspecies that are not even close to the type of wolves that were originally in the Yellowstone area. Studies have shown that when wolves are scarce, they will interbreed with coyotes. When there are more wolves around, then it doesn't happen nearly as much. My guess is that if tested, a lot of our "wolves" in MI are not pure wolves at all but rather coyote/wolf hybrids that can legally be shot as coyotes.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Trophy Specialist said:


> When they relocated the wolves to Yellowstone, they had to search all over to locate "pure" wolves that did not have coyote DNA. They ended up using wolves from northern Canada that are a subspecies that are not even close to the type of wolves that were originally in the Yellowstone area. Studies have shown that when wolves are scarce, they will interbreed with coyotes. When there are more wolves around, then it doesn't happen nearly as much. My guess is that if tested, a lot of our "wolves" in MI are not pure wolves at all but rather coyote/wolf hybrids that can legally be shot as coyotes.


You got it. If it's under 95% you can thumb your nose to the charges. I shot a coyote two years ago that had a muzzle like a great dane on a coyote 40 lb body. :yikes:


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> You got it. If it's under 95% you can thumb your nose to the charges. I shot a coyote two years ago that had a muzzle like a great dane on a coyote 40 lb body. :yikes:


In 2004 I shot a huge coyote south of my home. I never did weigh it, but I was able to sell it for $100 to another taxidermist, who mounted it whole. It was too large for any coyote form, so he had to mount it on a wolf form. I bet that coyote had some wolf DNA in him.

As for the 95% number. I have never seen that one in the law. My understanding is that if you can proof that the wolf has anything other than wolf DNA (even a trace), then it is not protected as a wolf.


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## hunterrep (Aug 10, 2005)

Luv2hunteup said:


> The DNR only publishes the minimum number of wolves and not a true estimate of the total wolves in the UP. I believe that I read in the UPCAC minutes that the current published number of wolves is about 60% of the actual number of wolves. One thing that should also be noted is that wolves kill many other game animals, fur bearing animals, domestic animals and pets.
> 
> Wolves need to be brought down to sustainable levels in the UP. On a good note they have established a breeding population below the bridge. With the game rich habitat in the LP their numbers should swell at least as fast as in the UP. In a decade or two they will be closer to their present support base. When that happens everyone will be able to enjoy what UP residents have had to endure.
> 
> If a UP season is delayed maybe the DNR should start a trap and transfer program and relocate breeding pairs to different counties in the LP. The first counties that should be targeted should be counties whos residents signed the above mentioned petition. You want them in Michigan you can have them in your backyard.


This should go on a poster for promoting a wolf season.
Well said indeed!


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## William H Bonney (Jan 14, 2003)

TrekJeff said:


> The idea of allowing wildlife management issues to come to a vote of the general public needs to stop. No Upper vote, no troll vote, NO VOTE. Put something on a ballot when it comes to killing poor helpless cute cuddly critters, and it will bad news for sportsmen. Doves are a perfect example of what happens when wildlife management is put in the hands of the GP. If deer hunting was placed on the ballot, I'd bet we'd be surprised on the vote count.:SHOCKED:
> 
> The natural resources of this State are held in trust by the State for the people of the State. Let the State and Fed manage, F'the ballot.


Here's the ironic thing, the only way to allow the State to handle all hunting matters is to have "Hunting" written into the State Constitution. Ya know how we get hunting written there?? By a vote... :lol: 

From what I've been told by State politicians is that it's kind of an "unwritten rule" among them,, basically let a sleeping dog lay when it comes to deer, small game and trapping. 

Because here is what can happen... If we tried to get hunting and trapping into our States Constitution, that proposal would fail miserably. What happens next is the door is WIDE OPEN for a group to throw a NO HUNTING AT ALL proposal on the ballot,,, and we don't want that, that's for sure. 

We only have to look back a couple short months ago to the RTW fiasco. If the unions wouldn't have "angered the Gods" with Prop 2,,, I guarantee Synder never would have signed the RTW deal into law.


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## TrekJeff (Sep 7, 2007)

W.Bonney, very true...guess the people need to be heard, after all they know more about things in the woods as they drink their lattes and sushi:lol:

There are times like this where these decisions should be made under executive authority rather than a vote...HEY, there we go, we'll start a proposal that reads "All wildlife mgt falls under the executive authority of the NRC, and not subjected to a vote by the GP":16suspect


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## Valerie Nixon (Jan 16, 2013)

TrekJeff said:


> W.Bonney, very true...guess the people need to be heard, after all they know more about things in the woods as they drink their lattes and sushi:lol:
> 
> There are times like this where these decisions should be made under executive authority rather than a vote...HEY, there we go, we'll start a proposal that reads "All wildlife mgt falls under the executive authority of the NRC, and not subjected to a vote by the GP":16suspect


Could it be called "Proposal G"? Actually I thought it was. Wasn't it?


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

TrekJeff said:


> The idea of allowing wildlife management issues to come to a vote of the general public needs to stop. No Upper vote, no troll vote, NO VOTE. Put something on a ballot when it comes to killing poor helpless cute cuddly critters, and it will bad news for sportsmen. Doves are a perfect example of what happens when wildlife management is put in the hands of the GP. If deer hunting was placed on the ballot, I'd bet we'd be surprised on the vote count.:SHOCKED:
> 
> The natural resources of this State are held in trust by the State for the people of the State. Let the State and Fed manage, F'the ballot.


There should be no ballot, there shouldn't have been one for the doves. Thank Jenny and the head of the DNR for that one. The public trust mandates the legislature and DNR of our state manage fish and game under sound science, outside public vote. This protects our hunting and fishing from preservationists and anti's. Unfortunately the head of the DNR and governor were busy politicking for their future jobs, the war room and DU.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

It is critically important that the DNR not drag their feet on getting the wolf season put in place as early as possible this year. We need to be able to hunt wolves this fall (2013) to demonstrate that the season will not result in the end of the wolves in MI, as the dishonest anti-hunters will surely lie about heavily with this ballot initiative. Like the dove hunt, if the wolf hunt is delayed or put in place so conservatively that it doesn't get most hunters behind it, then we will be fighting an uphill battle. Also, if we don't fight just as hard and dirty as the anti-hunters do, then we will loose again. We need to call them liars when they lie, and we need to sue them if they use illegal funding sources to fund their campaigns like they have done in the past. We need to reveal the anti-hunters for what they really are to the general voting public. Anti-hunters are the biggest bunch of hypocritical, lying, stupid, idiots that walk the earth and they are also the cruelest to animals of any group of people too.


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

I assume they will do a drawing for tags and hopefully you can only draw a tag every so often so everyone will get an opportunity to take one of those buggers. I would love to take a big wolf and have a beautiful rug made from it. They are beautiful animals but theres just to many of them and the habitat is now suffering for it as are hunters. Lerts hope Snyder is smarter than the HSUS.

Ganzer


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## swampbuck (Dec 23, 2004)

Ranger Ray said:


> There should be no ballot, there shouldn't have been one for the doves. Thank Jenny and the head of the DNR for that one. The public trust mandates the legislature and DNR of our state manage fish and game under sound science, outside public vote. This protects our hunting and fishing from preservationists and anti's. Unfortunately the head of the DNR and governor were busy politicking for their future jobs, the war room and DU.


 Now we have moved deer hunting itself to a tainted popularity vote conducted by the MDNR. I wonder how the other side views big antler management.

And the slippery slope grows larger........


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## MERGANZER (Aug 24, 2006)

I never knew wolves and coyotes cross bred. I thought wolves and coyotes were enemies and that wolves killed the coyotes. Learn something new everyday.

Ganzer


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## on_point (Sep 30, 2011)

The people going after these signatures the National Humane Society something is the California based organization that advocated so adamantly against dove hunting in michigan yet virtually every state in the US has a season.

I believe if they get 250,000 signatures Mi is required to put it on a ballot during the next election. The organization even admitted it was going to put most of it's monies into michigan because they think they have the best chance of success here over wisconson and minnesota. 

Really irritates me how people on the left coast who most likely don't even know what a Yooper is are trying to manipulate policies to protect an animal that is not even endangered that directly has a huge effect on their economy.

I've read similar stories about wolf problems in the elk states as well. A lot of guys supposed gave up guiding around yellowstone because the elk numbers are so drastically reduced.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

on_point said:


> The people going after these signatures the National Humane Society something is the California based organization that advocated so adamantly against dove hunting in michigan yet virtually every state in the US has a season.
> 
> I believe if they get 250,000 signatures Mi is required to put it on a ballot during the next election. The organization even admitted it was going to put most of it's monies into michigan because they think they have the best chance of success here over wisconson and minnesota.
> 
> ...


They'll get the required signatures because Michigan is full of pansy sheeple and so called hunters and fishers that won't support the rest of us that have signed the petitions.


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## elysian (Oct 20, 2011)

One of my supervisors was passing around the petition at our recent sales meeting. I was surprised to find out he is also a hunter :yikes:. I politely told him no and when he asked again I somewhat rudely told him no. :smile-mad

They *will* get this on the ballot...


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

If so some reason it does get on the ballot they will end up noticing a huge decline in wolf numbers. Backlash will be bad. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

elysian said:


> One of my supervisors was passing around the petition at our recent sales meeting. I was surprised to find out he is also a hunter :yikes:. I politely told him no and when he asked again I somewhat rudely told him no. :smile-mad
> 
> They *will* get this on the ballot...


Exactly what I said earlier. The stupid nonsense "you cant eat it so why shoot it". And the "sport hunters only want to kill everything that moves bull".


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

At the next meeting you should pass around a petition to ban deer hunting.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

on_point said:


> The people going after these signatures the National Humane Society something


It's the Humane Society of the United States, often abbreviated HSUS (or H$U$).

The HSUS is the one running commercials during the Superbowl with sad black and white photos of puppies and kittens, with the plea "just send $19 a month to help animals like these."

In reality, that money doesn't go near puppies and kittens. It's a scam. They're trying to end hunting and meat production. It pays lawyers and lobbiests to push political campaigns such as this one. 

Those anti-wolf hunting signature gatherers get $3/signature from HSUS.


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## elysian (Oct 20, 2011)

k9wernet said:


> At the next meeting you should pass around a petition to ban deer hunting.


LOL

Won't work as he is a bird hunter... but... he is from out of state and may not know how the Dove Season went down here.

I'll mention that next time I see him.


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## MichiganderFisherman (Jun 15, 2012)

Check this wolf out guys, he was hit by a snowmobile near Iron Mountain, about 35 miles from where I hunt. I do not want to run across him while taking a walk back to camp or scouting.


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## old graybeard (Jan 19, 2006)

I just read an article that said a large group of senators are trying to push for more states to reintroduce even more wolf's.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

MichiganderFisherman said:


> Check this wolf out guys, he was hit by a snowmobile near Iron Mountain, about 35 miles from where I hunt. I do not want to run across him while taking a walk back to camp or scouting.[/QUOTE
> 
> It was hit no where near Iron Mt., It was hit by a car South of Watersmeet on US45.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

MERGANZER said:


> I never knew wolves and coyotes cross bred. I thought wolves and coyotes were enemies and that wolves killed the coyotes. Learn something new everyday.
> 
> Ganzer


 I really have my doubts that they are cross breeding. I live in the UP and over the years I have seen lots of wolves and way more coyotes I have never seen one that could be a conbination of the two. I also know lots of trappers that live and trap in the UP that would agree with me.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

MichiganderFisherman said:


> Check this wolf out guys, he was hit by a snowmobile near Iron Mountain, about 35 miles from where I hunt. I do not want to run across him while taking a walk back to camp or scouting.


 Exactly why we want them killed off in the UP. Picture yourself brook trout fishing and one of these guys sneaks up behind you. One of their favorite foods is beaver. Last year in April I was steelhead fishing on a UP river and had a large wolf pass through the woods about 70 feet from me. There was a large group of smelt dippers camped within about 300 yards of where I saw the wolf. Absolutely no human fear at all. If you spend any time in the woods in the UP I guarantee that for every wolf that you happen to see a dozen of them have seen you.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Robert Holmes said:


> I really have my doubts that they are cross breeding. I live in the UP and over the years I have seen lots of wolves and way more coyotes I have never seen one that could be a conbination of the two. I also know lots of trappers that live and trap in the UP that would agree with me.


The last I read, all the recent "wolves" that were killed or captured in the LP were actually found to be wolf/coyote hybrids. All of those "wolves" had coyote DNA, so those animals were/are not technically afforded the protection of wolves. I also read that many U.P. "wolves" are also wolf/coyote hybrids. In areas with few wolves and lots of coyotes, hybrids are more possible. If there are lots of wolves, then hybridization is less likely.


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## MichiganderFisherman (Jun 15, 2012)

My bad Mukwa, It was sent to me by a friend didn't mean to give false info, thank you for correcting it, haha either way that thing is huge! I'd have to assume that there is other ones that big all over the U.P 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

After the dove hunting vote went sour we went to the polls and voted on a proposal that passed stating that the Michigan Natural Resource Commission was to decide on all future hunting and fishing debates. Are they not doing their job? It sounds like their mind is made up on the wolf hunt issue now people from 49 other states are deciding that the economy in the UP will get worse by not having a wolf hunt. If HSUS gets its way I will personally file a lawsuit to block their effort. What really gets me is that idiots who have never ever came close to seeing a wolf in the wild and experienced their destructive capabilities would want them protected. If the same idiots had a beaver dam in their backyard and their home was flooded would be out to kill the beaver. If it goes to a vote only the people in the UP should have a vote. It is bad enough that we had to give up 6 million dollars a year in money designated for upkeep on Mackinac Bridge to pave roads in Detroit and Lansing. And we did not get to vote on that.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

If anyone approaches you to sign an anti wolf hunting petition make sure that you sign it twice!!!!! That will void out that piece of paper and everyone elses name on it. Please make sure that other hunters and fishermen do the same. Mabey collectively we can make this HSUS approach so that they do not get their numbers.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

MichiganderFisherman said:


> My bad Mukwa, It was sent to me by a friend didn't mean to give false info, thank you for correcting it, haha either way that thing is huge! I'd have to assume that there is other ones that big all over the U.P
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


That puppy was well above the average size. Plenty for it to feed on around there. Its hard to find any beaver in that area too.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Robert Holmes said:


> After the dove hunting vote went sour we went to the polls and voted on a proposal that passed stating that the Michigan Natural Resource Commission was to decide on all future hunting and fishing debates. Are they not doing their job? It sounds like their mind is made up on the wolf hunt issue now people from 49 other states are deciding that the economy in the UP will get worse by not having a wolf hunt. If HSUS gets its way I will personally file a lawsuit to block their effort. What really gets me is that idiots who have never ever came close to seeing a wolf in the wild and experienced their destructive capabilities would want them protected. If the same idiots had a beaver dam in their backyard and their home was flooded would be out to kill the beaver. If it goes to a vote only the people in the UP should have a vote. It is bad enough that we had to give up 6 million dollars a year in money designated for upkeep on Mackinac Bridge to pave roads in Detroit and Lansing. And we did not get to vote on that.


Well except we didn't define "sound science." Now, there are those that want to say "sound science" includes "social science" as a major factor in the decision making process of "sound science." With Proposal G, we told the HSUS their social input into game management didn't count, because "sound science" did not include "social science" as a major factor in game management, although some does exist in decision making. Are you following yet? 

Between the public trust doctrine and proposal G, there should be no vote of the populace on game management. Game management never was intended to be by popular vote, I think we all know how that would turn out. 

Sign our petition

http://www.change.org/petitions/mic...tm_medium=email&utm_campaign=petition_created


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

I was just in the U.P. & heard some wolf scuttlebutt. The word was that recent counts have shown lower wolf numbers & any LEGAL hunt is off the table. Yes, don't the specifics of the count. Just info from a fairly good source.


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