# countryside kennels bad axe



## Bonoz09 (Aug 28, 2012)

Hi , 

As ive been reading through some old threads Ive seen some people comment or pm people about Countryside. Can anyone with direct experience comment or pm me if you prefer. Im not looking to purchase a pup was considering them for training. Any info would be great , Thanks.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

I wouldn't. 


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## woodcockridgekennels (Jul 7, 2009)

i've talked to them quite a bit and will more than likely be taking my setter there


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

chewy said:


> I wouldn't.
> 
> 
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100% agree

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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

chewy said:


> I wouldn't.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


AGREE! 

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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Mr. Botek said:


> AGREE!
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Yup!!!!


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## Biggbear (Aug 14, 2001)

pm sent


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## kwas (Nov 17, 2007)

I wouldn't...


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## woodcockridgekennels (Jul 7, 2009)

could someone please pm me and tell me why? I am curious now about sending my dog there.


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## B Smithiers (Oct 3, 2010)

woodcockridgekennels said:


> could someone please pm me and tell me why? I am curious now about sending my dog there.


I ask the same I would like to know the reason also? Please PM me as well. B 

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## Isaac_62 (Nov 29, 2004)

I wouldn't.


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

The original question asked for feedback from those with "direct" experience. I find it highly unlikely that very many, if any of these highly qualified (?) naysayers have had direct experience. Pretty cheap to throw a public "thumbs down" review at someone without giving them the opportunity to respond.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

northwinsetter said:


> The original question asked for feedback from those with "direct" experience. I find it highly unlikely that very many, if any of these highly qualified (?) naysayers have had direct experience. Pretty cheap to throw a public "thumbs down" review at someone without giving them the opportunity to respond.


I sent this info to the OP in a PM, but if it makes you feel better for me to call out lucky here for all to see.....

My dog was there. Lucky screwed him up really bad, both health and training. He was feeding him junk food that made his gums bleed. He was super thin cause it was not what a working dog needed. His training went backwards and took a yr to fix the problems lucky created. I have also seen many other dogs trained by Miller that had all the same issues. 

There is your 1st hand experience. That guy cost me a lot of time and money, and hope I can save others from going thru what I did. Now that I have spent time with how real trainers do things, I will honestly say lucky is a hack and is nothing but a salesman to those that don't know otherwise. 

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## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

My 1st hand experience was seeing a dog go there in excellent health & leave there fortune to survive the worst case of worm infestation I've seen. Better? 

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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

SalmonBum said:


> I sent this info to the OP in a PM, but if it makes you feel better for me to call out lucky here for all to see.....
> 
> My dog was there. Lucky screwed him up really bad, both health and training. He was feeding him junk food that made his gums bleed. He was super thin cause it was not what a working dog needed. His training went backwards and took a yr to fix the problems lucky created. I have also seen many other dogs trained by Miller that had all the same issues.
> 
> ...


Sounds that from your perspective it was a bad experience. For the record, it wasn't that I was looking for a public "calling out", it was a caution to the op to make sure that they weren't drawing conclusions from naysayers who are just armchair quarterbacks that were basing their opinions on hearsay or with some personal axe to grind. I do find that when it comes to trainers there are those with both good & bad experiences. In your situation it would be very interesting to hear the other side of the story. I do find it surprising that if this trainer is as bad as you describe that they've been able to stay in business since 2003.


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

northwinsetter said:


> The original question asked for feedback from those with "direct" experience. I find it highly unlikely that very many, if any of these highly qualified (?) naysayers have had direct experience. Pretty cheap to throw a public "thumbs down" review at someone without giving them the opportunity to respond.


I say send your dog to him! But it looks like some good advice has been given about him....


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

northwinsetter said:


> Sounds that from your perspective it was a bad experience. For the record, it wasn't that I was looking for a public "calling out", it was a caution to the op to make sure that they weren't drawing conclusions from naysayers who are just armchair quarterbacks that were basing their opinions on hearsay or with some personal axe to grind. I do find that when it comes to trainers there are those with both good & bad experiences. In your situation it would be very interesting to hear the other side of the story. I do find it surprising that if this trainer is as bad as you describe that they've been able to stay in business since 2003.



This is not just my dog, but about 6-7 dogs I have personally seen that other trainers are now trying to undo what lucky did. I have yet to see one lab, or as he says is his specialty pointing lab, do anything other than a cp title. As a trainer he represents himself to be he should have a wall of ribbons proving his successes...........

The OP can do as he chooses, but he asked for feedback and I gave it. Lets see if anyone posts anything positive lucky has done. Right now its pretty cut n dry.........

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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

SalmonBum said:


> This is not just my dog, but about 6-7 dogs I have personally seen that other trainers are now trying to undo what lucky did. I have yet to see one lab, or as he says is his specialty pointing lab, do anything other than a cp title. As a trainer he represents himself to be he should have a wall of ribbons proving his successes...........
> 
> The OP can do as he chooses, but he asked for feedback and I gave it. Lets see if anyone posts anything positive lucky has done. Right now its pretty cut n dry.........


You may be absolutely correct. I still maintain that no one can get a balanced viewpoint without both sides of the story and I would suggest that onlookers reserve judgment until the accused has a chance to respond to his accusers.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

northwinsetter said:


> You may be absolutely correct. I still maintain that no one can get a balanced viewpoint without both sides of the story and I would suggest that onlookers reserve judgment until the accused has a chance to respond to his accusers.


Yes you are correct. My dog is not the easiest to train. He is a big strong dog with a high tolerance for handling pressure. He may have been a bit much for lucky to control, but as you can see it the titles he has, a good trainer was able to get the done...... it just woulda been done quicker if he wasn't with lucky. Honestly, all the other dogs I saw with some lucky training all had the exact same issues. It kinda tells me its something he is doing in his program.

I have nothing against him personally, just he was not a trainer that can get the job done that is required for high performance labs. He as never taken a dog to a grand level. A good trainer will have a few. The best will have dozens. Fortunately for us here Mi, that trainer with dozens is here in MI, and most already know who I'm talking about . 

Lucky can come on here and say waht he wants, he's a great salesman and we all know what most salesman are good at.....B.S.'n. What would help his credibility is other dog owners who have had their dog trained by lucky, how they use the dog (hunting, testing), and what was the outcome of the training. It also helps to know if the person has owned multiple dogs and has used or seen other trainers. A guy that drives a ford and has only owned a ford knows no better than ford to be the best, if u understand the metaphor. 

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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

SalmonBum said:


> Yes you are correct. My dog is not the easiest to train. He is a big strong dog with a high tolerance for handling pressure. He may have been a bit much for lucky to control, but as you can see it the titles he has, a good trainer was able to get the done...... it just woulda been done quicker if he wasn't with lucky. Honestly, all the other dogs I saw with some lucky training all had the exact same issues. It kinda tells me its something he is doing in his program.
> 
> I have nothing against him personally, just he was not a trainer that can get the job done that is required for high performance labs. He as never taken a dog to a grand level. A good trainer will have a few. The best will have dozens. Fortunately for us here Mi, that trainer with dozens is here in MI, and most already know who I'm talking about .
> 
> ...


I can't speak of him as trainer thank goodness after reading your story. I did unfortunately meet him and instead of going into the details, lets just say I wasn't impressed. I'm sure his dogs are good, but as the old saying goes dogs can't pick their owners. 


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## SwiftHntr.17 (Jul 23, 2007)

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## skidoojc (Aug 28, 2006)

Both of my GSP's are from Countryside and I am happy with my dogs. I am not impressed with Lucky in any way. I originally purchased a female who has done great for me. I heard of a repeat breeding and wanted another female to make up a good hunting pair. I picked up my second pup. Three days later kennel cough set in. Then worms in the stool. I made multiple calls and left multiple messages, and have yet to hear a thing. That was 2 years ago. Not my kinda fella and I wont be dealing with him again. Lots of the training is for the handler, Lucky plays the drop your dog off and get gone method and of course pay up. In my eyes steer clear!!!! I use Nick Miller of Milrun in Coldwater. He's a stand out individual and a great trainer.


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## catchfish (Jun 10, 2013)

Wow; I am really taken back by what I am reading in regards to Countryside Kennels and Lucky Miller! I just got my 1 yr. old chesepeake back from there and he is more than I hoped for.When I left him he was a typical hard headed chessie,he would retrieve(when he wanted to) do a victory lap or stop short.He would jump all over my kids and wife,and was socially challenged in the etiquette dept.Now he heels everywhere we go, no fail,comes on the drop of a dime, sits and stays sitting until released,sits in front of any doorway until me or my family enters first, jumping up on anyone is a thing of the past.and the big kicker is HE FINDS DROPTINES LIKE IT'S A JOB HE LIKES!! I personally am extremely pleased and would recommend Countryside. I know for a fact he had his hands full with my 110lb dog,and thanks to Lucky, my hands are no longer full. On a personal note he also welcomed my family (three kids and my wife) and I into his home, offered us all refreshments and even some home cookin' , both times we were there. Where I come from that qualifies you as "good people". Maybe it's just me, or maybe my dog is smarter than some other dogs ,or maybe....Well.... I guess I'll let ya'll draw your own conclusions.Happy hunting.


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

catchfish said:


> Wow; I am really taken back by what I am reading in regards to Countryside Kennels and Lucky Miller! I just got my 1 yr. old chesepeake back from there and he is more than I hoped for.When I left him he was a typical hard headed chessie,he would retrieve(when he wanted to) do a victory lap or stop short.He would jump all over my kids and wife,and was socially challenged in the etiquette dept.Now he heels everywhere we go, no fail,comes on the drop of a dime, sits and stays sitting until released,sits in front of any doorway until me or my family enters first, jumping up on anyone is a thing of the past.and the big kicker is HE FINDS DROPTINES LIKE IT'S A JOB HE LIKES!! I personally am extremely pleased and would recommend Countryside. I know for a fact he had his hands full with my 110lb dog,and thanks to Lucky, my hands are no longer full. On a personal note he also welcomed my family (three kids and my wife) and I into his home, offered us all refreshments and even some home cookin' , both times we were there. Where I come from that qualifies you as "good people". Maybe it's just me, or maybe my dog is smarter than some other dogs ,or maybe....Well.... I guess I'll let ya'll draw your own conclusions.Happy hunting.


Is this your 1st dog that you had trained? The stuff you describe is basic OB, not Gun dog training. You can get the same results taking a class at your local Tractor Supply on Tuesday nites from 6 to 9pm. Don't take this the wrong way, but if this IS your 1st time using a trainer, you don't have anything to compare to.

But as long as the dog turned out the way you wanted him to, that's what matters. Not everyone wants or even need titles. 





catchfish said:


> On a personal note he also welcomed my family (three kids and my wife) and I into his home, offered us all refreshments and even some home cookin' , both times we were there. Where I come from that qualifies you as "good people". .


If you want to hear how much of a "good person" he is, PM me. I have heard some things thru the grapevine that I will not post on here that would change your mind 

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## kwas (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm not knocking your dog but everything he trained for is pretty elementry in terms of training. So that's one good referance.


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## Shlayer (Nov 8, 2011)

Obviously, the guy is a dog trainer and has mixed reviews. To the nay sayers, it is more productive to explain in detail the problems you noted with his dogs rather than just give thumbs down. However, if he is staying in business some people are happy with the training. 

To the OP, personally if I am sending my dog to someone I don't look for a guy with mixed reviews. I look for the guy with rave reviews. There are more than a few around. I know a couple guys in your area that are great, if you are interested pm me.


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## Socks (Jan 8, 2007)

What type of dog and age and maybe we can give you some additional trainers to look at and research. Then it's up to you who you use.


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## garzach1 (Jun 11, 2013)

Wow I cant say enough GOOD about County Side Kennels and Jim Lucky Miller!!! I have gotten numerous dogs trained by Jim and none of the negative things said has been the case. Jim is a first class guy with a first class operation. Ive dealt with Jim on numerous occasions from training dogs that he didnt breed to dogs that he did. Nothing but good to say every time. He is as honest as they come!! Ive been working dogs for about 10 years and have been all over the country looking for the right trainer/breeder and have worked with some darn good ones, Harold Neilson(Dokkens rt hand Man), Tom Dokken and Jim Miller have impressed me by training my dog the way I want them trained, when it comes to upland, waterfowl and shed dog training these guys are the best I have found in the last 5 years. In fact I just picked up another pup from Jim shes a 7 week old choc lab female, again great service, clean, outstanding kennels and a family oriented kennel and business. Nothing but good to say, pm me anytime.


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## Shlayer (Nov 8, 2011)

garzach1 said:


> Wow I cant say enough GOOD about County Side Kennels and Jim Lucky Miller!!! I have gotten numerous dogs trained by Jim and none of the negative things said has been the case. Jim is a first class guy with a first class operation. Ive dealt with Jim on numerous occasions from training dogs that he didnt breed to dogs that he did. Nothing but good to say every time. He is as honest as they come!! Ive been working dogs for about 10 years and have been all over the country looking for the right trainer/breeder and have worked with some darn good ones, Harold Neilson(Dokkens rt hand Man), Tom Dokken and Jim Miller have impressed me by training my dog the way I want them trained, when it comes to upland, waterfowl and shed dog training these guys are the best I have found in the last 5 years. In fact I just picked up another pup from Jim shes a 7 week old choc lab female, again great service, clean, outstanding kennels and a family oriented kennel and business. Nothing but good to say, pm me anytime.


Perhaps I am too suspicious, but two posters happen to join, make their first post ever on this thread, and it happens to be at the same time of the evening two days in a row. Both posts are written with similar syntax and style. Who is really making these posts? 

It's also a little confusing that this second poster would say he has been working with dogs for 10 years but he has had numerous dogs trained by this gentleman. If he has been working with dogs for 10 years and claims to have worked with Tom Dokken (one of the most well known dog trainers in the country), why wouldn't he have just done the training himself? And what person in their right mind would have gotten "numerous" dogs from one trainer and worked with several others during the period of 5 or 10 years?


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## hillsdale (May 23, 2010)

Never had him train any of my dogs, but I have a chocolate male that I bought from him 3 yrs ago. The dog is the best lab I have ever owned.









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## deezel (Jun 3, 2010)

Shlayer said:


> Perhaps I am too suspicious, but two posters happen to join, make their first post ever on this thread, and it happens to be at the same time of the evening two days in a row. Both posts are written with similar syntax and style. Who is really making these posts?
> 
> It's also a little confusing that this second poster would say he has been working with dogs for 10 years but he has had numerous dogs trained by this gentleman. If he has been working with dogs for 10 years and claims to have worked with Tom Dokken (one of the most well known dog trainers in the country), why wouldn't he have just done the training himself? And what person in their right mind would have gotten "numerous" dogs from one trainer and worked with several others during the period of 5 or 10 years?


oh come on, prolly just coincidence! LOL


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## snoble (Jun 19, 2007)

Well, I do not post on here(Michigan Sportsmen) hardly at all, and I certainly did hear that Countryside was being hammered on this thread and was not asked, but only felt compelled to post my experience with Jim at Countryside. I am not a serious dog trainer, nor have I a lot of experience working with dogs. I am a serious whitetail hunter who wanted to extend my whitetail season by getting into shed hunting. I looked to Jim at Countryside Kennels because I had heard through the grapevine that he had started training antler dogs. I walked into his kennel, it was as clean as could be, and Jim was great at explaining his operation and what he had available for antler dogs. He pointed to a 6 month old yellow lab that he had been working with on antlers and suggested we watch him work to see if he fit the bill. We walked outside, threw out a dozen antlers (most of which submerged inches into the receding February snow. We then turned out a 6 month old yellow lab that was extremely happy and energetic to be working with Jim, and then preceded to pick up all 12 sheds over the course of a 100 yard by 60 yard area in the time span of about 20 minutes. I was elated to witness such a performance and had a hard time containing my excitement...needless to say the dog was on its way home with me later that morning. The dog has stayed in our house from day 1 and has all of the obedience you could ever ask for, and has searched and retrieved antlers both in training and in the wild with extreme efficiency from the beginning. When I take him out to the timber to find sheds he never disappoints. This dog has found a pile of sheds on two years worth of hunts on our Illinois ground and has found a respectable amount here in Michigan. He will clean out a block of timber of all its "good" sheds (Illinois) and I was a little skeptical that he was missing several little sheds, but those thoughts were discarded this year as I searched timber here in Michigan and was amazed that my dog had retrieved from a thicket a 4 inch spike antler while I was talking on my phone... I felt something hit my foot as he dropped it, and then glared at me to throw him his reward which was a tennis ball. Once again, I am not a trainer, I am not an experienced dog guy. What I can tell you is that I got a dog from Jim Miller, it is healthy, and it hunts antler's like its nobody's business, and Jim trained it. He is now a 3 year old dog and just finished up the best antler season he's had by collecting 43 wild antler sheds this season. I may be out of line on saying this, but feel strongly that my dog that came out of countryside kennels would fair extremely well against 90% of the antler dogs out there. Signed...Steve Noble Snover,MI


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## garzach1 (Jun 11, 2013)

Shlayer said:


> Perhaps I am too suspicious, but two posters happen to join, make their first post ever on this thread, and it happens to be at the same time of the evening two days in a row. Both posts are written with similar syntax and style. Who is really making these posts?
> 
> It's also a little confusing that this second poster would say he has been working with dogs for 10 years but he has had numerous dogs trained by this gentleman. If he has been working with dogs for 10 years and claims to have worked with Tom Dokken (one of the most well known dog trainers in the country), why wouldn't he have just done the training himself? And what person in their right mind would have gotten "numerous" dogs from one trainer and worked with several others during the period of 5 or 10 years?


Well Im sorry your confused, but yes it my first time posting on here, maybe I should explain more about me, Im a 33 year old farmer in the thumb of Michigan, Ive bought a few dogs in my day, but probably not as much many as you. My first experience with Jim Lucky Miller was in 2007, when i took him my choc male lab dog that was 1, he was sent there for obedience training, Jim did an outstanding job, after that I kept in touch with Jim, actually booked a pup and couldn't afford it when the time came to purchase him, Jim was awesome to work with, found a home for the pup and gave me a credit for when i could afford a pup. Time passed and I actually took my dog to Minnesota where I had him trained as an antler dog by Tom and Harold. Top notch guys and facilities all the way around!!! In the mean time I didnt realize Jim was training for antler dogs, that was until my brother in law lost their family pet in an accident. I contacted Jim to see if my 
original pup credit was still good in trying to help out my family member. Jim was awesome to work with and met my brother in law and myself on a sunday and gave us a 7 month old pup he had started on shed antlers for what I gave him as a deposit almost a year earlier. Only word to describe that dog AWESOME!! He is a shed finding machine!!! After that I couldn't believe that type of training was basically in my back door. Since then my choc male has passed to cancer at an early age, Ive purchased an waterfowl black lab female from Jim who is awesome, and the 7 week old pup from him as well, which i attend to take to him for antler training. So say as you will, but Jims kennels are top notch and Jim is an excellent trainer from what ive seen over the past 5 years working with some darn good ones.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

deezel said:


> oh come on, prolly just coincidence! Lol


Egggzzzzactly! Lol


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## SalmonBum (Feb 28, 2001)

Sounds like if you want your dog to sit and stay, or to find sheds, then Lucky has a program for you...... if you believe that the last few post are not just coincidence


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## jonesy16 (Sep 19, 2011)

I wouldn't deal with CSK....I took my dog there and was ripped off....nice guy just was very dissatisfied with his business. 

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## mintgreenwalleyemachine (Jan 18, 2005)

My dog gauge was trained by lucky and had outstanding results!


"StinkFinger"


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## Dpeet (Feb 12, 2009)

I know I'm late to this discussion but for some reason I felt I needed to post some feedback for Countryside Kennels today!! So a google search brought up this thread and after getting back on the TMS I am writing this. I originally wanted to leave feedback on Countryside's page, but obviously, you can't freely submit and expect anything he may perceive as negative to be posted.

So, I had recently gotten into duck hunting and wanted to add a lab to the family but also have a hunting buddy. I didn't know what a good trainer did or how they acted so I trusted him with my 11 month old Yellow. My dog is great, the perfect companion and he does well duck hunting too. He is extremely laid back and just has that great Lab demeanor. 

He did acquire the basics while he stayed at Countryside for about 3 weeks. I can't remember specifics but when I interviewed and took my dog there to check it out, he seemed legitimate. Had plenty of dogs in his outdoor kennels and he demonstrated a few of his good dogs in training. He promised my dog Zeke would come home in great shape, ready to be a duck retrieving machine and a great house pet. Some of that is true, but I think it is because of the dog, not the trainer. What should have clued me in that day was when he was giving me the tour of the indoor kennel, there was a dog that was barking at us. Jim was a little wound up and aggravated, so he jerked the dog out and put a shock collar on him. Then proceeded to light him up a couple heavy doses to quiet the dog down. That single action should have told me right there, but it didn't, and my dog stayed.

When we went to pick up Zeke, he was incredibly skinny, the cement floor had caused scarring and hair loss at his elbows. So, he looked nothing like that of the happy healthy dog we left. Jim went through the process of showing the skills he had taught and Zeke had learned. He seemed very obedient and eager to do as commanded. I thought it was great at the time, and I left thinking I had a great hunting machine I could continue to train and use the basics I had learned from my reading and research.

Here's where it all went wrong......
Shortly after, and ever since then, if you raise a hand around my dog, he completely shrinks into a mess. Runs to his kennel and has to be coaxed out. If you have a shock collar on him, he will only run and heal to your side while being completely submissive. He cannot learn any new commands with collar training because, in my opinion, it was used far too much and in a terribly negative way toward my dog. Lucky may be an ok trainer and he may get decent results with certain types of dogs. However, he was not the right candidate for my dog and I feel horrible for submitting our dog to his torturous training, which we still feel those effects nearly 4 years later.

Dogs have different personalities, just as humans do. In our lives, we cannot treat everyone the same, we shouldn't expect differently for our dogs. *He used fear and intimidation to get results from our dog, it wasn't a desirable outcome for us*.

I hope this helps future prospects!!!!!


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I'm sorry to hear of your issues, it's hard to get a dog completely and properly collar conditioned in 3 weeks. 

I would suggest you start slowly with praising your dog, don't pet him on top of the head, scratch his chin while you are sitting in a chair. 


Give him time, and I might suggest a bunch of clip wing pigeons would be of significant benefit.


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## brownitsdown84 (Jan 19, 2009)

I am pretty sure this is who my uncle and I spoke to at the outdoorama yesterday for around 45 minutes...very interesting...My uncle almost bought a pup and made arrangements to drop off a dog this summer to be trained for shed hunting... he wants a shed dog but doesn't want a lab because of size... but that's for another thread.. I guess I will let him know what I came across today before he goes any further


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