# Antler debate deserves truth



## campblujay (Jan 21, 2004)

That did not sound very friendly and cordial.

I would have to say that seeing 57 deer in a field could be a very strong indication of over population. Surely pellet counts and browse count would tell the tale, but the feds in national forests are saying anything over 10 dpsm is harming the ecosytem and many qdm practicing states are saying anything over 12dpsm is too high....... soooo it sounds like 57 in a field may just be tad over the reccomended qdm guidelines. 

It also sounds like some folks don't remember that the herd reduction side of the qdm equation is married to the bigger antler side. Get that area doen to 12dpsm (or 10 like the nationl forest wants) and then we'll see how many trucks are pulling out of 118 with bucks in the back. 

Sounds more like MSY than QDM.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

Just because you drive around an area and see a tremendous amount of deer in the fields does not mean it than can support that many deer. You could and drive around some clubs in NE michigan and see hundreds of deer back 10 years ago, same goes with Menominee co in the banana belt now. 

Hey whatever, typical comments from a person the QDM association is trying to weed out. At least thats what I've been told........


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

You'd really have to go out and see the property, look at the surrounding fields, type of plantings, ect. to accurately guage the population and carrying capacity. For example, 1 alfalfa field in my old stomping grounds in the thumb would attract most all the deer in the area during the late summer. It was common to see 10-15 bucks, and 20-25 does and fawns, in 1 40 acre feild. BUT, half the deer would come from over 1/2 mile away, across the road, from a heavy river-bottom bedding area, the other 1/2 would come from a bedding area in the opposite direction about a 1/2 mile away. A few would come out of the standing corn adjacent to the field. Bottom line though, you could drive around the entire section, in both directions away from the field, and see no other deer at times and just a few at others. The number of deer in the field did in no way represent the number per square mile for the area, either high or low, the deer were traveling just too far and there were too many variables to consider. At the same time, we saw up to 17-18 bucks in a field at one time. This too did not represent how many bucks lived in that sqare mile, and most of the older ones returned to their respective own areas for most of the hunting season, sometimes being seen regularily up to 2 miles away. 

Bottom line, prime summer food sources can be very misleading as to population density for a given area. Also, this time of year around here, fawns will have a home range of 200-300 yards, even with our dense cover. Traveling a 1/2 mile in farm country to a prime food source seem pretty realistic. At the same time, it is very common for there to be large bachelor groups of bucks formed from bucks that live some distance away but are drawn to the area for social and habitat influences.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

beer and nuts said:


> Just because you drive around an area and see a tremendous amount of deer in the fields does not mean it than can support that many deer. You could and drive around some clubs in NE michigan and see hundreds of deer back 10 years ago, same goes with Menominee co in the banana belt now.
> 
> Hey whatever, typical comments from a person the QDM association is trying to weed out. At least thats what I've been told........



bn,

OK, explain this to me please,!! Why do I keep seeing big deer numbers when the past 5 years we have taken off an average of 25
+ does on the section? I am guessing. . . . this is just a guess. . .that the land can support them and this leads to the does having multiple offspring. 

Maybe someone else can help. . . . do we need to kill 50 does a year on the section??? The herd seems healthy and the ratio is a lot better than before, it's just that the land holds a lot of deer....is that a bad thing???

I have an absolute blast hunting there, so I guess that's the main thing.

Thanks for all of your honest opinions beernut, glad you seem worried about the deer in Clare being healthy. . . they seem fine to me. 

How's the fishing on Higgins?? Glad we get to have these little debates. . . like I said before, if you gave QDM a chance, you might like it. . . but, with your situation of hunting land, I understand. . . as long as you have fun, that's all that matters I guess.

GO BUCKS. . . I MEAN PIONEERS!!!

btw- did you go to RHS??


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

"What this article is pointing out is that we, in the past, have been high grading. "that APRs eventually would result in high-grading, especially if a specific APR only protects the smallest-antlered yearling bucks while allowing the largest-antlered yearling bucks to be harvested." 

That is truly a silly statement. At this time of the year there is so much food that deer have absolutely no reason to travel half a mile to a field to feed. they might do that in the middle of the winter when food sources were limited ,but there is no way deer will travel half a mile at this time of year to feed.


Furthermore, why would there only be one preferrred field in 640 acres in a farming area . If the soils in the area were suitable for growing alfalfa there would be more than one field of 40 acres growing alfalfa. 
How do soybeans ,clover and corn compare to alfalfa as a preferred food source?


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Mixed agricultural land can support a tremendous number of deer. Problems *will* occur above a certain density (due to social stress) but that generally doesn't occur until densities surpass 100 deer per square mile.

It all comes down to food resources. Agricultural land can feed a huge number of deer. Mature forests may not be able to support many deer at all. I've seen deer herds in agricultural areas that are doing great at 80 deer per square mile and herds in large expanses of mature timber that are "maxed out" density-wise at 6-8 deer per square mile.

A deer requires approximately 2,000 pounds of dry-weight food per year. Forage studies have found mature forests that produce as little as 10 pounds of dry-weight forage per year. At that food production rate, it would take 200 acres to support 1 deer annually. That equates to a "carrying capacity" of approximately 3.2 deer per square mile.


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## beer and nuts (Jan 2, 2001)

I'm sure the agricultural "owners" would be very happy not to see their crops feeding the deer but instead the cows and eventually YOU!

My point is, no natural landscape in Michigan can support that many deer in what your seeing UNLESS they have agricultural crops to feed on and as we all know, deer are not the best friends to farmers no matter the crop. I understand agricultural can support large numbers of deer but that is not what the agricultural is there for!!! Look at the agricultural crops as habitat, if you saw the "habitat" being destroyed and browsed over would you consider this healthy? Or our we being selfish JUST becuase it produces large antlers, heavier weights and more deer for us to see?? IF your talking about an area or large private sector that is producing these numbers of deer becuase they invested $$ into food plots and the food plots are sustaining these deer numbers, weeeellllll thats a whole different arguement.


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

That is why so many PA hunters have a problem with Alt's deer management plan. The two WMU's with the highest recruitment rates are agricultural areas in the southeast. They have OWDD goals of 5 and 6 DPSM, while are most heavily forested WMU's with little if any farmining have OWDD goals of 15& 17 DPSM.

If PA managed the herd at an statewide average of 25 DPSM there would be no need to reduce the herd and since our B/D ratio was at 1:2.1 there was no need to implement antler restrictions.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Valid point B&N. What happens when what's left of the crops are harvested?


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

> What happens when what's left of the crops are harvested?


You harvest the excess deer, leaving only enough to replace the bucks taken. Every other fawn will be a doe so the cycle starts over.


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## newk8 (Jul 28, 2004)

BN

Before you start questioning the post I placed concerning 25 bucks and 32 does, maybe you would like to know the size of the field, and the true holding capacity of the field andthe type of crop in the field. I realize that you find any of this information believeable based on your experience. I have no problem with this. But here is the truth. 1) there were 57 deer in that field. 2) it is an alfalfa field that covers half a section ( I believe about 400 acreas) (Omega 58 you know where the shumway is?). 3) the deer in that area do travel from at least a mile away, and in some instances farther. 4) and yes QDM is working. Why do I say that you might ask. Well here it is, a buck to doe ratio that is 1 to 1. Well 25 to 32 is not one to one but it is a lot closer than what it was 5 years ago when on the same piece of property it was 10 bucks to 100 does. You must also realize that that the deer hunting universe does not revolve around Roscommon county. Maybe AR's are not necessary in Roscommon county but taking care of the deer heard is important, unless you would choose to not have the ability to hunt in Roscommon county. Lets put it out there what the real issue is. Some people just do not like change, and QDM means changing from one philosophy of hunting to another. I will be the first to admit, I was not on board with QDM to start. To this day I do not like the way it was presented to the hunters and landowners in this area. But in my opinion (not professional) it has worked and improved the hunting for many people. It is ok to disagree but I hope as a sportsman you are able to look at doing what is best for the deer heard. Change is hard and takes time, come down to Clare an I would be glad to show you around, I think you might be amazed!!


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

Are you saying there isn't another alfalfa field within a mile of the one in which you saw those deer? If not ,why would the deer tarvel a mile to that particular field?

BTW, it is almost impossible to have a B ratio of 1:10 in farm country since every year the vast majority of does are bred and produce twins ,which brings the B/D ratio close to 1:3 , not 1 :10.


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