# Effects of CWD feeding ban on wild turkeys



## Linda G.

We do elevate our feeders, in fact, we were the first group to develop both the feeders and the elevated platforms. As I said in an earlier post, that keeps the deer from eating the corn, but it doesn't keep them from "congregating" around it-and that's the problem, the DNR is saying with this CWD thing. Anything that DRAWS deer. 

As for the merit of having the wild turkeys up here, yup, you're right in some ways...but, as I've also said in countless posts on this forum and in print, that's something nobody (meaning the DNR) thought about when the first group of 25 birds was stocked up here in the 80's...and never in their wildest dreams did they think they would do as well as they have. Now that they are here, it's not right to just turn our backs on them, and we never have. They didn't ask to starve and freeze to death in northern Michigan, so we have a responsibility to those birds, a responsibility the DNR has NEVER been willing to shoulder-they just want the money from all those tags. 

Do we have TOO many? That all depends on where you are. In some parts of the north, yes. We do. In others...no way. In fact, in many areas of northern Michigan there's no birds anywhere for miles...at one time there probably were, but without stable winter feeding, they aren't there any more. Predators also add into the population indices...and poaching. 

Let's put it this way, which is how one wildlife biologist explained it to a big crowd about 10 years ago. Three seasons of the year Michigan's northern wild turkeys are no where near their carrying capacity. Duriong that 4th season of the year, they are, without supplemental food, completely beyond their carrying capacity. By 100%.


----------



## pescadero

riverman said:


> With respect Linda, if we have to feed the turkeys in winter for them to survive, should they be there in the first place? Natures way takes care of overpopulation of one species at some point in time. Distemper or mange dwindles **** populations when the theshold is met and sooner or later the same will happen with the slp deer population. It would be great to me if the dnr tried to establish a cat and bear population in slp, but the question is, would it be productive and would we have to provide artificial support? The same can be said about the northern turkey pop. Extending or artificialy supporting any species beyond it's "normal" range and carrying capacity seems counterproductive to me.


x 1000

-- 
lp


----------



## Linda G.

So, since you guys think it's so wrong to provide any type of artificial supplemental winter-ONLY food to a population that's already here, what would you guys do? Watch them starve? 

Do either of you take turkey hunting seriously? Where do you hunt?

Your remarks are easy to say when you don't have to look at those birds out there in front of your house, waiting for food that never comes, every day. That's why we just throw our hands up in disgust at people like you and 90% of the turkey hunters in this state that won't help us financially at all but still take advantage of what we do to improve their hunting every spring...and do what we feel is right. 

There's a whole lot of people up here doing that.


----------



## cointoss

Linda G. said:


> So, since you guys think it's so wrong to provide any type of artificial supplemental winter-ONLY food to a population that's already here, what would you guys do? Watch them starve?
> 
> Do either of you take turkey hunting seriously? Where do you hunt?
> 
> Your remarks are easy to say when you don't have to look at those birds out there in front of your house, waiting for food that never comes, every day. That's why we just throw our hands up in disgust at people like you and 90% of the turkey hunters in this state that won't help us financially at all but still take advantage of what we do to improve their hunting every spring...and do what we feel is right.
> 
> There's a whole lot of people up here doing that.




Linda, how very true what you say!


----------



## pescadero

Linda G. said:


> So, since you guys think it's so wrong to provide any type of artificial supplemental winter-ONLY food to a population that's already here, what would you guys do? Watch them starve?


I'd prefer they open up hunting enough to actually deal with the overpopulation as opposed to letting them starve. I'm sure people can be found that would be glad to hunt them. Exactly the same thing that should be done in areas where deer require supplemental feeding. All supplemental feeding does is push the overpopulation problem down the line to future generations. Of course a much better answer would been to not have introduced an artificial population to begin with.

Do you think we supplementally feed deer in areas that suffer significant winter kills during bad years?

-- 
lp


----------



## averageguy

I don't see the harm in feeding for recreational viewing,but feeding to support the population seems impossible and futile. If they can't make it on their own now, how will you feed the offspring of the ones you save this winter next winter? I would also think over time these hand outs would keep the weak,sick,and old birds alive to possibly weaken the group. To these begging birds I say the same thing I say to begging people with the cardboard signs, survival of the fittest, support yourself or die.


----------



## Linda G.

First, Pescadero...they have opened up hunting enough to manage the populations...it's called fall hunting, the only time of the year you can shoot hens and poults. Problem is, no one wants to fall hunt cause they're deer hunting-unless they can shoot one off a bait pile, which is illegal, while they're archery hunting for deer. Or perhaps they feel, as a lot of people do, that it's inherently wrong to harvest females and young. Who knows, all I know is that we've had an almost wide open fall season here in Area J for more than 15 years. Nobody applies. There's always left-overs. Now, you can buy those left-overs over the counter, no need to apply. But they still go unsold. Or, as sometimes occurs, all the tags are subscribed but they are never filled. There is a very small group of people that take fall hunting seriously, as an obligation to do what we can to help manage populations in areas that have high populations. I am one of those people. I VERY rarely see anyone else out there. 

Like deer, depredation permits are also issued to farmers in areas where turkeys are being destructive. I know of two farmers right now with depredation permits...they say the birds are ruining their apple crop. I'd believe that, as turkeys do like apples, if it weren't for the fact that the apples have to fall to the ground, at which point they lose most of their value to farmers, for turkeys to peck at them. Turkeys do not fly up into trees to feed. They are ground feeders. Depredation permits are also issued to those with soybean and corn crops. But from what I've seen, most of these farmers don't use these tags. They either don't have time or just don't bother. 


As for your question about deer....ah, yes, we do. It's called the UP and most of the northern Lower Peninsula. Just ask any property owner. That's why winter kill has been so low in both areas over the last 20 years or so, with the exception of some very remote areas of the UP during the winter of 96-97. 

Averageguy-that's a question we've asked ourselves every winter since 1986 And we still mange to pull the vast majority of the birds through every winter. Every winter we wonder how we're gonna do it, but we somehow do it. This year, however, with corn prices 2 to 3 times higher than ever before, in an increase that occurred much faster than we could raise through fundraisers to make up the shortfall, we may not do it...that's if we can feed at all. And despite a full belly of corn every day, we do not pull the old (I don't think there's any such thing, or ever has been, as an old wild turkey, there are too many other mortality factors out there-predation being #1), the sick (I have never seen a sick wild turkey, same reason as above, they die quick if they aren't 100% fit) or weak birds (never seen one that was around for more than a week, and that was when they were on a feeder.) Turnover of wild turkeys is VERY high in most areas, they don't live more than 3 years or so, on average. We just help to even the odds of their survival-without the feed they have ZERO chance of survival in areas, like most of northern lower Michigan and the UP where there is more than 2 feet of snow on the ground for more than 4 weeks with accompanying temperature of less than 32 degrees F for more than a couple of months. 

We do not promote, recommend or cooperate with any type of recreational feeding at all. We only feed for basic survival, not to fatten up the birds or provide people with recreational entertainment from their living room windows. We usually feed for six to eight weeks from January until March-last winter it didn't end until mid-April, another reason we spent so much money. If you don't feed at the tail end of the winter, when the birds have used most of their fat and energy reserves to survive the cold, despite the feed, you'll lose all the birds anyway...so you have to feed until the snow melts and the weather breaks. We don't start until we have to in January. 

All you guys need to come up here in February and see what we deal with. The DNR is well aware of these issues. They know what we deal with and privately, agree with us. If it weren't for the doggone deer thing they would publicly agree with us. After all, it's because of them that we're in this mess, and they know it. And it's ONLY because of those of us who winter feed that they make the license money they do from the northern populations...millions every year...they know that, too.


----------



## Nick Adams

pescadero said:


> Do you think we supplementally feed deer in areas that suffer significant winter kills during bad years?


Unfortunately we do (sportsmen under permit from the DNR).
http://www.keweenawislandcoalition.com/

It's a bad idea for deer and for turkeys, from both an ecological and a wildlife management perspective.

-na


----------



## Nick Adams

Linda G. said:


> That's why winter kill has been so low in both areas over the last 20 years or so, with the exception of some very remote areas of the UP during the winter of 96-97.


We can lose roughly 30% (~100,000) of our deer in a severe winter, despite the supplemental feeding. We had two severe winters back to back in 1995/96 and 1996/97. UP deer numbers in the spring of 1997 were pretty close to 1/2 of what they were in the spring of 1995.

-na


----------



## Linda G.

I can believe that, you live there, I don't. But I would also ask how they knew how many live deer survived those winters to compare to the carcasses they found to come up with those numbers. You don't believe in pellet counts, do you? And do you really think they found every single carcass? Of course not, all of those numbers are estimates. I do know a lot of deer died, but was it really half the population...who knows. 

Deer still yard up in the UP, a good thing except for the fact that we are losing the habitat in our deer yards, and they simply stand there now more often than not-cedar is becoming rare in this state. Supplemental feeding, especially of corn, is really bad for deer if they're already in bad shape, and usually groups like the Keweenaw coalition don't move in until the deer are in dire shape. That group, and others, would be well rewarded to do as much white cedar planting as they can, and protect it from browsing as much as they can until it is fairly mature-an impossible task, I know. An earmark of the fact that there are, despite everyone's protestations in the UP, just too many deer up there for the habitat that's left-and now they're eating everything that is there-nothing gets a chance to grow. 

Deer are very different from turkeys. I am not a believer in feeding deer, never have been. But because deer are native, some will survive, even after an extremely harsh winter. That is not the case with turkeys, which are not native and do not have built in winter survival abilities. 

There's just as much turkey feeding going on in the UP as there is here in the northern lower. That's the only reason there's ANY turkeys in the UP.


----------



## cronn

Ditto Linda...


----------



## MrFysch

First i think the constitution........gives us the right to bear arms and people have been huntng n this great country since men walked on it...when did it become a priviledge......the only way we loose our rights is when the govt makes some knee jerk reaction to an incident which they clearly have here. It all comes down to money///why wouldnt they close all the penned up deer facitlities........stop allowng the private land owners to grow food plots or cut down all the oak trees and apple trees....simple...big money uses all these means to attract deer and turkeys and big money always wins...I thought years ago we passed legislation to let the public decide how we manage our resources....guess not.....


----------



## pescadero

Linda G. said:


> First, Pescadero...they have opened up hunting enough to manage the populations...it's called fall hunting, the only time of the year you can shoot hens and poults. Problem is, no one wants to fall hunt cause they're deer hunting-unless they can shoot one off a bait pile, which is illegal, while they're archery hunting for deer. Or perhaps they feel, as a lot of people do, that it's inherently wrong to harvest females and young. Who knows, all I know is that we've had an almost wide open fall season here in Area J for more than 15 years. Nobody applies. There's always left-overs. Now, you can buy those left-overs over the counter, no need to apply. But they still go unsold. Or, as sometimes occurs, all the tags are subscribed but they are never filled. There is a very small group of people that take fall hunting seriously, as an obligation to do what we can to help manage populations in areas that have high populations. I am one of those people. I VERY rarely see anyone else out there.


Then populations aren't successfully being managed, and seasons need to be changed. Whether it be opening the spring season to shooting hens, adding extra seasons in the middle of the summer, etc. - there is a way to avoid having a population high enough to require supplemental feeding. Much like the early doe season this year in the SLP - where there is a real will, there is a way.



Linda G. said:


> As for your question about deer....ah, yes, we do. It's called the UP and most of the northern Lower Peninsula. Just ask any property owner. That's why winter kill has been so low in both areas over the last 20 years or so, with the exception of some very remote areas of the UP during the winter of 96-97.


A typo on my part - what I meant to say isn't "do we" (I knew that we do) - it was "do you believe we should"... in my case, the answer is no. We shouldn't supplementally feed deer, or turkeys, or anything else for that matter. If supplemental feeding is required it is proof positive of a population beyond the carrying capacity of the land and populations should be reduced, either through hunting - or winter kill if after a few years hunters prove unwilling/unable to do their duty.



Linda G. said:


> We just help to even the odds of their survival-without the feed they have ZERO chance of survival in areas, like most of northern lower Michigan and the UP where there is more than 2 feet of snow on the ground for more than 4 weeks with accompanying temperature of less than 32 degrees F for more than a couple of months.


Proof positive that there shouldn't be a population of turkey in that area then. If zero birds can survive without human intervention, they don't belong there.



Linda G. said:


> After all, it's because of them that we're in this mess, and they know it. And it's ONLY because of those of us who winter feed that they make the license money they do from the northern populations...millions every year...they know that, too.


They screwed up - so we need to maintain the screw up? Nope. And license money doesn't justify it either.

-- 
lp


----------



## Linda G.

you'd just stand there and let them starve...well, that's what a lot of people say. Till those birds are standing in their yards.

Again, you need to come up here to understand the situation. Populations are NOT too high in many areas, but they still need to be fed during the winter. No food is no food, whether there's a lot or just a few. Again, they're ground feeders, and when the snow is two feet deep, there could be tons of natural food under that snow but they can't get to it. 

In fact, there's hardly any birds in a lot of places, and people would like to see a lot more. But the DNR isn't doing any trap and transplanting any more. 

The deer populations aren't being properly managed in most sections of the state either, especially in southern lower Michigan...but how many people do you really think are going to participate in that early doe season? I know a lot of people that aren't. It's not going to bring the numbers under control...only Mother Nature can do that. But do you think that, if the weather got bad enough down there, which it never does, that people would stand there and watch the deer starve to death? No way. 

Like I said, you need to live this situation to understand it. There are approximately 50,000 turkey hunters in northern lower Michigan and the UP...and 99% of the public land turkey hunting in this state. You explain to those people why we should let Mother Nature manage the populations when they can't find any turkeys this spring...and stand there and stare at those turkeys in your yard for four to six weeks this winter...that's how long it will take before they die.


----------



## pescadero

Linda G. said:


> you'd just stand there and let them starve...well, that's what a lot of people say. Till those birds are standing in their yards.


Yes, it's a sad fact of reality that many people seem to have an inability to let nature work as it should. It isn't a good reason not to let nature work as it should though.



Linda G. said:


> Again, you need to come up here to understand the situation. Populations are NOT too high in many areas, but they still need to be fed during the winter. No food is no food, whether there's a lot or just a few. Again, they're ground feeders, and when the snow is two feet deep, there could be tons of natural food under that snow but they can't get to it.


If they can't survive without supplemental feeding, populations are too high by definition. If zero birds can survive a winter in those areas without supplemental feeding, the correct population is zero birds.




Linda G. said:


> The deer populations aren't being properly managed in most sections of the state either, especially in southern lower Michigan...but how many people do you really think are going to participate in that early doe season? I know a lot of people that aren't. It's not going to bring the numbers under control...only Mother Nature can do that. But do you think that, if the weather got bad enough down there, which it never does, that people would stand there and watch the deer starve to death? No way.


You're probably right about that - but that is an excuse, not justification. People absolutely SHOULD let them starve if they are overpopulated, or they are just part of the problem.



Linda G. said:


> Like I said, you need to live this situation to understand it. There are approximately 50,000 turkey hunters in northern lower Michigan and the UP...and 99% of the public land turkey hunting in this state. You explain to those people why we should let Mother Nature manage the populations when they can't find any turkeys this spring


Because nature should be managed for nature, not for the desires of humans. Because it is an ecologically unsound thing to do. People wanted to kill off all the wolves - it was the wrong thing to do. People want to supplementally feed deer and turkey - it's the wrong thing to do. People want to introduce non-native game species - it's the wrong thing to do. Manage the resource for the best of the resource, not for the whims of the hunting/fishing public.



Linda G. said:


> ...and stand there and stare at those turkeys in your yard for four to six weeks this winter...that's how long it will take before they die.


There are ways to avoid it - but it first requires that we admit they don't belong there in the first place. Make an open spring season, no permit limits, shoot anything you want, shoot as many as you want. I'm willing to bet that would avoid the problem of having to watch them starve. Allow hunting over bait, with dogs, shooting them off the roost... I guarantee we can avoid the starvation problem with a little motivation.

-- 
lp


----------



## Linda G.

You obviously are not a fan of wild turkeys. What a pity, there's a lot to be learned about the wild world, hunting, woodsmanship, and yourself from an hour of hunting wild turkeys. Everything has its place you know, even people.

I've heard of some people like you, but never actually talked to anyone. I just said something on another thread about people who insist on remaining anonymous on the web who are much fuller of bs and bravado on the web where they are incognito than they ever would be in person, people who say things on the web they would never say in person...or even believe, for that matter. 

Do you know what mammal has the highest overpopulation of anything?....um, people. Do you feel the same way about people?

I hope that applies to you. I would hate to think there really are people out there like that. 

I think you would change your mind if you lived up here. 

Read your post again, and I am wondering, please don't be insulted, if you are an almost ready to graduate or just graduated biology student. Because your posts sound exactly like something that came out of a textbook. Well, textbooks aren't the real world. I know a lot of younger people who have found out exactly that-and it's quite a shock. All of them are now trying to re-learn their philosophies about life-it will help their own ability to survive. 

And I do have one newsflash for you...regardless of how you think our wildlife should be managed-by Mother Nature, it's not. It IS managed for people. If it wasn't we wouldn't have anything to hunt. Are you one of those people who believe in "nature's balance"-another textbook term? Guess what, in today's world of a very unbalanced world with far too many people, that is absolutely impossible.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Linda -

Any estimates of the current NLP turkey population and how many potentially might be at risk if the feeding ban stays in place?


----------



## Linda G.

Well, we figure about 15,000 in Area J, and we have the biggest population. But that's just one five county area of the NLP, and I guess it all depends on what you consider "north"...from Bay City over to Muskegon north to Mackinac, probably easily 50,000, probably more. 85,000, maybe.

What's really a shame is that people will openly break the law if they think that's what it takes to take care of these birds-all in the name of taking care of something the state brought us and taught us to appreciate, then walked out on. 

They can hand feed the birds, meaning not get the feed out until the birds appear, then clean up anything that's left, and they'll be within the law. That's what I'll try to do. I have three flocks I took care of last winter, at one time I took care of as many as 16 flocks, probably 1500 birds, but I've learned how to delegate a bit, especially as I've gotten older. 50 pound bags of corn are tough to haul around when you're a 53 year old grandma of 4. I'll have to see if I can find some other folks to help, I can't hand feed three flocks, not and have a full-time job at the same time. 

But most of the birds are fed by people that can't get out much, mostly older people, thousands of them, that sit home all winter and 9 times out of 10 end up being the caretakers of the birds-it's sure not the sportsmen, for the most part. They're forced to have some kind of feeder, because of health and age issues, and if that feeder draws deer, they'll be illegal. 

They'll pay the fines from their grocery money. Maybe we can try to raise some sort of legal fund for those people. I don't know, what a mess. 

There will be plenty of people who give up feeding, which means that we can expect the turkey populations to drop this winter, probably drastically, one way or the other. I can see where we'll lose no less than 2/3 of the birds if we have a long, tough winter. Probably a lot more than that, I don't know how many people will be willing to either defy the ban or hand-feed.


----------



## swampbuck

They are not songbirds at your bird feeder, They are wild game birds. I think you have lost touch with reality..Do you name them also? What other species that "wont make it without our help" should we introduce....:rant:


----------



## Linda G.

Do you name the deer you hunt? We are quite aware that they're wild, but like I said about the deer we can feed right out of our hands every winter, they lose a lot of that wild when it's -10 with two feet of snow on the ground. 

By the way, there's all kinds of birds being fed around Higgins Lake every winter. There's an entire chapter of the NWTF out of Grayling that takes care of all of Roscommon County, and they still lose birds, every year, because of people who die, move, etc., and don't let the chapter know or find anybody to take over feeding those birds. I'm sure you've noticed the decline in numbers in that area in the last five years. That area was one of the last to be stocked, and never had large numbers of birds, due to a lack of agriculture in the area, which further promotes numbers, and too many seasonal residents who would fill up their bird feeders in front of their house in November, then walk away in December, without notifying anybody. 

You don't turkey hunt either, do you? It's so easy to tell. Do you have any idea what the deer numbers in this state would be like if we didn't manage them? No tree cutting, no agriculture, no promotion of open areas, and yes, no feeding. They'd be on the floor, which they were when this state was completely forested before the white man arrived. There were very few deer in this state.

Again, when the birds were introduced to the state of Michigan, the DNR did not realize how bad it would be for them in many areas of the state every winter. But the people who learned to enjoy turkey hunting found a way to help them not only survive, but have the strength in the spring to thrive and re-produce. Nobody saw anything wrong with it then, and did not see down the road. Because of that, and the innate laziness of many people, we should just walk away and forget everything we've done over the years to create thousands of new turkey hunters and sportsmen who support ALL of hunting? You know, there's a lot of people out there who enjoy turkey hunting who don't deer hunt or enjoy any other type of hunting, yet they support the heritage-all of it. 

If this were deer we were talking about, (and like I said, those deer get pretty tame in the winter, if they didn't like the feeders as much as they do, we wouldn't be in this mess at all ) would you say the same things? I think not.

And I'm not alone in this, you know. There's thousands of us up here doing this every winter. We think the people who have lost touch with reality are people like you, who don't see the whole picture, but only what you want to see.


----------



## swampbuck

I dont feed the deer or any other animal. Do you see anything wrong with hand feeding (domesticating) an animal before you claim it as a hunting trophy?

I dont support supplemental feeding of any wild animal, I believe we should let mother nature deal with it, as its supposed to be. Yes I did notice a reduction in turkeys in residential areas around the lake, And I along with many others appreciated the numbers being reduced to carrying capacity instead of the grossly inflated population that was damaging and soiling lawns for several years. It became common around here to hear them called rats with wings or one of a few other names that I wont post. And I would suggest that there may have been other factors involved in the population reduction.

using any bait that will attract deer is illegal. I for one will be reporting any I see, including feeding the turkeys.


----------



## boltaction

Swampbuck, could you elaborate a little more on this statement and what it means? Thanks.

(And I would suggest that there may have been other factors involved in the population reduction.)


----------



## pescadero

Linda G. said:


> You obviously are not a fan of wild turkeys. What a pity, there's a lot to be learned about the wild world, hunting, woodsmanship, and yourself from an hour of hunting wild turkeys. Everything has its place you know, even people.


I like Turkey - and I really enjoyed my one experience hunting them -but that is irrelevant to the fact that we should, as much as possible, try to do what is best for the great majority of an area biologically/ecologically. One need only look at the huge chain of effects cause by wolf removal in Yellowstone to see all the unintended consequences we generate. 



Linda G. said:


> I've heard of some people like you, but never actually talked to anyone. I just said something on another thread about people who insist on remaining anonymous on the web who are much fuller of bs and bravado on the web where they are incognito than they ever would be in person, people who say things on the web they would never say in person...or even believe, for that matter.


Lets just say I'm not especially anonymous. A minor searching through my posts will easily discover who I am.




Linda G. said:


> Do you know what mammal has the highest overpopulation of anything?....um, people. Do you feel the same way about people?


Do I feel people should be killed off or allowed to starve? No. Do I feel people should try very hard through intelligent decision making to limit our population and do everything possible to minimize the impact of our population on nature at large? Absolutely.



Linda G. said:


> I think you would change your mind if you lived up here.


I doubt it. I spent six years living in Oregon, and still disagree with the put and take Salmon fishery. I've lived in Michigan the rest of my life and disagree with our fish plantings.



Linda G. said:


> Read your post again, and I am wondering, please don't be insulted, if you are an almost ready to graduate or just graduated biology student. Because your posts sound exactly like something that came out of a textbook. Well, textbooks aren't the real world. I know a lot of younger people who have found out exactly that-and it's quite a shock. All of them are now trying to re-learn their philosophies about life-it will help their own ability to survive.


Lord... I'm so anonymous you can't even bother to read my profile? I'm quite a bit past graduating, and I'm certainly no biology student.



Linda G. said:


> And I do have one newsflash for you...regardless of how you think our wildlife should be managed-by Mother Nature, it's not. It IS managed for people. If it wasn't we wouldn't have anything to hunt.


I know it's managed for people - the problem is that we've done a moumentally hideous job of it. As for not having anything to hunt - that just isn't true. We'd certainly have DIFFERENT things to hunt, and different populations - but there would absolutely be something to hunt.



Linda G. said:


> Are you one of those people who believe in "nature's balance"-another textbook term? Guess what, in today's world of a very unbalanced world with far too many people, that is absolutely impossible.


Which is why we need to use man as a predator for population control - but we should as much as possible attempt to maintain natural native populations in balance with available resources.

-- 
lp


----------



## swampbuck

take it any way you want, We dont have any turkey feeders in my nieghborhood, We used to have one but he is gone. The overpopulation in my neighborhood was short lived and not nearly as bad as down by the lake. But I do know several people who did have a problem and dont anymore. I dont know why/dont ask but I have a pretty good idea.

There WAS a difference between taking a little food out to a big chunk of woods and maintaining a huge nuisance flock in a residential neighborhood.

As far as hunting. I never have but have been considering it, although I would hunt in a more remote area where I could have a more realistic expierience than hunting hand fed turkeys. The smaller population in my immediate area can easily be approached to within 20 yds.

I know some guys who do it for the meat. theyre method involves driving down the roads until they see a suitable target on the shoulder, out of the safety zone, parking up the road a ways. walking back to shotgun range and shooting it, perfectly legal. And I suppose they get as much satisfaction as I did chopping the heads off chickens that my dad raised when I was a kid.


----------



## boltaction

> take it any way you want


Thats just it swampbuck, I'm not sure how I should take that statment.



> But I do know several people who did have a problem and dont anymore. I dont know why/dont ask but I have a pretty good idea.


Just for the sake of argument, so that I might understand a little better, what is this (preaty good idea that you have)?


----------



## Nick Adams

Linda G. said:


> And I'm not alone in this, you know. There's thousands of us up here doing this every winter. We think the people who have lost touch with reality are people like you, who don't see the whole picture, but only what you want to see.


The part of the whole picture that I can clearly see is that any die off of turkeys related to deer feeding/bating restrictions is directly related to artificially maintaining unsustainable populations in unsuitable habitats. 

Those who created the situation have no one to blame but themselves.

-na


----------



## Linda G.

Nick and Pescadeo, you don't want me to tell you why I haven't bothered to read your profile. You would be highly insulted. 

And swamp, at the least you sound like a very unethical hunter with poachers and general slime for acquaintances, so I'm not going to pay any attention to you, either. 

As for turning in people you see feeding, better check with the DNR first. We still have not been told we can't...in fact, some of us have been told we can. And judging from what you describe as people you know and may be yourself, I doubt they'd pay any attention to you anyway. 

Nick when you said, "Those who created the situation have no one to blame but themselves"-that would be the DNR. So, refer all of your comments to them, ok?

Pescadero, aren't the salmon NATIVE in Oregon? They're "put and take" here. Do you object to our salmon fishery here? I assume you do. How about the brown trout fishery? Pheasants? Um, even brook trout...and in the UP, bass? Better look up the history of all those species in this state. 

Those "huge" flocks in residential neighborhoods in the winter turn into very intelligent, wily, hermit toms in the spring in VERY remote areas of Area J-like the Pigeon River Country, the Jordan River Valley, and lots of areas in Emmett County where they also believe there's a wolf population. 

I invite all of you to come up here and hunt our "tame" turkeys-the right way, not road shooting them, which is despicable. Since you're so dead set against our "articial maintenance" of the wild turkey, spend the money, get a tag and DO something about it. Until then, you have no right, in my opinion, to continue preaching to me until you have at least a rudimentary knowledge of these birds in the winter and then again, the same birds, in the spring. 

Any time anyone starts talking to me about "tame" turkeys and "easy" turkey hunting, I know right then they've never turkey hunted at all.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Linda G. said:


> I can see where we'll lose no less than 2/3 of the birds if we have a long, tough winter. Probably a lot more than that, I don't know how many people will be willing to either defy the ban or hand-feed.


What is even more disturbing is that these deaths will be the direct result of an action by the DNR, that has no possible way of accomplishing what it is intended to accomplish. If the turkeys that die are more than 50 miles from the index facility in Kent Co., then they are being needlessly sacrificed for a meaningless gesture, because there is simply no plausible scenario where CWD could travel that great a distance to where it could be potentially spread by deer concentrating around bait in the Northern Lower Peninsula. The only way CWD is going to travel hundreds of miles from Kent Co. in the next few months is if the MDA lifts the quarantine and our resident deer farmers truck the disease throughout the state to one of the other 750 captive cervid facilities.


----------



## Linda G.

That's true, Munsterlander, but I still understand the quarantine and ban on baiting in THAT area where the disease was found. They should keep the ban on baiting in place all over the peninsula, but when it comes to feeding, they should look at that on a case by case basis based on what it is that needs to be fed, for how long, and where that feeding would be done. 

Still and all, tho, you and I know, as most people do who know the history of CWD in this country, that they can halt the baiting and feeding of everything STATEWIDE if they want to, and open up deer hunting to year around, over the counter, all the time, and they still won't cut the deer populations that much or stop CWD if it is in the wild herd. 

But it will devastate a lot of other wildlife in this state. Not just turkeys, either, but squirrels, songbirds, all sorts of wildlife. In many areas last winter, with the total mast crash in many areas, if it weren't for those common front yard bird feeders, a lot of squirrels and songbirds would have died, too.


----------



## pescadero

Linda G. said:


> Pescadero, aren't the salmon NATIVE in Oregon?


Not the great majority of them, no. In fact in Oregon you must release native salmon, only hatchery fish can be kept. The problem is that those hatchery salmon are:

1) A different species bred specifically for hardiness and growth rates under hatchery conditions
2) Compete with and generally outcompete (due to superior size from selection for early maturation and feeding in hatcheries) native salmon
3) Disease transfer from hatchery fish

All commercial and sport salmon fishing in Oregon is put and take, and it's a contributing factor to what looks to be the inevitable extinction of native salmon in Oregon.



Linda G. said:


> They're "put and take" here. Do you object to our salmon fishery here? I assume you do.


Absolutely.



Linda G. said:


> How about the brown trout fishery? Pheasants? Um, even brook trout...and in the UP, bass? Better look up the history of all those species in this state.


They are slightly different - they should never have been introduced and plantings shouldn't continue, but once there is a self sustaining population I see no need to remove it.


-- 
lp


----------



## Linda G.

Nice that life is in such straight lines for you. It isn't for the rest of the world.


----------



## thongg

interesting comments i have been hunting in michigan since 1963 turkeys only the past 4 years i enjoy it alot but the farmer place that we hunt in clinton county is over run with the birds he has even called the dnr to get permits to kill off as many as possible dnr said it will not issue permits at times in one 42 acre field we hunt we have counted over 120 birds we spring hunt and fall hunt cant shoot near enough birds to make any impact most farmers in this area totally hate all the birds that eat the crops some do more damage than deer i feel that feeding to keep a group around is not right let the excess die off if that has to be sorry for long post sorry linda


----------



## swampbuck

Linda G. said:


> And swamp, at the least you sound like a very unethical hunter with poachers and general slime for acquaintances, so I'm not going to pay any attention to you either


 While I am shocked and outraged at your slanderous and absolutely rediculous accusations, I am not surprised as it is the third time. You have no idea who I am or my acquaintances are, and your remarks as before are outlandish and uncalled for. I have noticed several times over the last few years that you can be pretty abrasive to anyone who does not agree with your opinion. That is unfortunate.

Upon further consideration I have come to realize that regardless of our groups interests, education and occupations, and some would surprise you. That your previous occupation as a journalist has endowed you with far greater knowledge of what is best for the environment and natural resources of this state, Than all of us combined could ever hope to achieve. I bow to your infinate wisdom.

Good luck in your endevours, Carl


----------



## Linda G.

If I've "done" this before to you, must be something else you said. I don't remember. I DO have a habit of making posts like that to people who don't know what they're talking about and insist on preaching about something they have ZERO knowledge of. 

And it's "endeavor", with an "a"...LOL Perhaps that was a typo?? Sorry, couldn't help it...

Thongg...that farmer obviously has those HUGE numbers of birds in the winter, right? That's a farmer who's forced to "feed" those birds, whether he wants to or not...and he obviously doesn't, nor should he have to. That's one of the first things we try to do up here is get the birds out of the barnyards. If there was a chapter of the MWTHA down there, they would help that farmer. Our closest chapter is in the Clare/Gladwin area. But if you like, I can point to who to talk to down there. Perhaps they can help that farmer, if you will work with them. 

Let me know.

Btw, there are no organized efforts to feed the birds there at all...the climate is too mild. There is no need for it.


----------



## pescadero

Linda G. said:


> If I've "done" this before to you, must be something else you said. I don't remember. I DO have a habit of making posts like that to people who don't know what they're talking about and insist on preaching about something they have ZERO knowledge of.


So someones ignorance is good reason to slander them? 

What at all has he said which would paint him as an "unethical hunter with poachers and general slime for acquaintances"?

-- 
lp


----------



## scott kavanaugh

Nick Adams said:


> The part of the whole picture that I can clearly see is that any die off of turkeys related to deer feeding/bating restrictions is directly related to artificially maintaining unsustainable populations in unsuitable habitats.
> 
> Those who created the situation have no one to blame but themselves.
> 
> -na


You know Nick, the turkeys in this state are one of the few things that the DNR has gotten right recently. We can actually be proud of the population and age structure.

Now a lot of that of course should be credited to the NTF and folks like Linda banging the drumb, but in fairness to the DNR they haven't gotten in the way too much.

It's true that these folks have managed to establish larger flocks that are thriving farther north than the turkeys original range, through thinking out of the box.

I don't know if you hunt turkeys Nick. But I know there have been a lot of young hunters in recent years that heard there first gobbles, or shot there first bird in the northern L.P. This during a time when there wasn't a lot of deer running around in those same woods.

In my opinion those who created this situation deserve all the praise we could give them.

In my opinion those who created a hyped ban on feeding that isn't going to do anything except hurt the sport and make feeding these birds difficult.

Well, I can't tell you what they deserve, because I'd get the thread closed or moved to sound off.


----------



## Nick Adams

scott kavanaugh said:


> I don't know if you hunt turkeys Nick...


I don't hunt turkeys. We don't have them up here in huntable numbers outside of a few small, isolated pockets where people spend a lot of time and effort supplementally feeding them. If I wanted to hunt turkeys it would be a simple matter of driving an hour or two down into Wisconsin where there is habitat that will support them.

I do hunt deer, and occasionally squirrel and grouse when the opportunity arises. I also manage natural resources for a living.

I don't let the fact that I hunt interfere with my understanding of sound natural resource management. Hunting is a recreational activity associated with our natural resources, it is not the sole objective of public resource management. Our public resources should be managed for healthy, robust ecosystems with sustainable populations of a wide variety of animal and plant species appropriate to the local geography, habitat and climate.

If there are people in the Northern LP who would like to farm free range wild turkeys outside of their natural range for the purpose of shooting them, I have no problem with that. They are welcome to open a private turkey shooting facility in pursuit of that activity. I know better than to confuse that desire with sound public resource management. I do not consider catering to that desire when it conflicts with other resource management decisions (i.e. deer bait ban) to be a significant public resource management priority.

-na


----------



## Linda G.

Try hunting spring turkeys some time right there in the UP. 

Perhaps that's why you don't want to try hunting them right there, because it would confuse you...when you find out that those "farm fed" turkeys hunt just as hard as the "wild" ones in Wisconsin...which are also being fed supplementally in hard winters, all the way to the Illinois state line. 

What a crock...keep trying to keep those lines straight, Nick, I'm sure it makes your life easier for you.


----------



## johnnybravoo77

Linda, I commend you for your efforts to up keep your current turkey population. It seems though, that your hostility shouldnt be directed at Nick, or anyone else, it should be at the Michigan DNR. They have created this problem on every level. They introduced a population of wild animals that they were not native to. They then ask for help to sustain this population and slowly back out and leave that burden to folks like you. 
CWD was allowed to come in to this state through a farm that the DNR regulates, and now many people have to suffer the consequences, not just hunters, farmers, stores that sell bait; not to mention the possible outbreak of the disease itself. Whether you agree with baiting or not, it is helping more than its hurting by a long shot. I dont think that baiting ban needs to encompass the entire lower peninsula, instead just the immediate area like the TB zone.
I do agree with Nick on some points, as well as yours. I just believe that your anger should be focused towards the DNR. If you have a network of people, get things together, flood the DNR with calls about feeding the turks, NWTF, MWTHA, MUCC; get these people invovled as well. I wish you luck and hope you prevail, without degrading anyone but the DNR.


----------



## Nick Adams

Linda G. said:


> ...keep trying to keep those lines straight, Nick, I'm sure it makes your life easier for you.


I can understand the difficulty you are having with straight lines. I myself am still trying to unravel who you think created the problem of a large number of wild turkeys on unsuitable habitat. ;-)



Linda G. said:


> "Those who created the situation have no one to blame but themselves *-that would be the DNR.*





Linda G. said:


> Again, when the birds were introduced to the state of Michigan, the DNR did not realize how bad it would be for them in many areas of the state every winter. But *the people who learned to enjoy turkey hunting found a way to help them not only survive, but have the strength in the spring to thrive and re-produce.* Nobody saw anything wrong with it then, and did not see down the road.





Linda G. said:


> most of the birds are fed by *people that can't get out much, mostly older people,* thousands of them, that sit home all winter and 9 times out of 10 end up being the caretakers of the birds-*it's sure not the sportsmen,* for the most part.


-na


----------



## Linda G.

Johnny-I am really glad there are still so many idealistic people in this world. We've tried everything in our power to get the DNR to help us over the years, something like 22 of them. We've begged, pleaded, reasoned, and yes, many times, I know a lot of people who got just plain mad. But as it is with sooooo many other things in the DNR, to no avail. You have to remember they don't, and never did, believe in feeding. They've just collected some 6 or 7 million dollars off those northern turkey licenses in the last 20-odd years. But they don't believe in feeding where necessary to keep a population going. 

Sure....LOL They do, however, believe in profiting from it. A number of them also hunt up here. 

Ok, Nick, you still don't get it. Let me spell it out as simply as I possibly can. 

1968-First wild turkeys stocked in Allegan and Lake Counties. Allegan birds did well, Lake County birds did not. DNR blamed poaching for demise of birds in Baldwin area. Subsequently, the area is re-stocked many times. Meantime, people (yes, little old ladies and other property owners that did not hunt turkeys) begin feeding them in the winter. The flocks grow. 

1986-DNR begins stocking wild turkeys from the UP (yes, that's right), Iowa, and Pennsylvania in northern Michigan in Antrim, Grand Traverse, Cheboygan, Emmet, Charlevoix, Wexford, Otsego, Montmorency, Alpena, and Iosco Counties. Asks sportsmen to feed them to get them through the winter. For the most part, those sportsmen do that, although some have fallen by the wayside over the years...and they were not the only people feeding-so were LOTS of property owners, on their own. That's when we started feeding, we were then associated with the NWTF, but we did not give the state or national headquarters any money, or hold banquets. We raised funds for feeding. 

We did what we could. We could not, and never have, done it all. But, as the flocks grew over the years, so did our fundraising, and every year we were able to help more people who were feeding from their barnyard silos (like the farmer mentioned here earlier, we take care of a lot of people like that), and older people and those on low incomes using their Social Security money, grocerty money, and Christmas money to feed the turkeys. We prioritize people who are on low incomes, are farmers, or are older. We help thousands of people up here every year by providing them with the shelled corn from money we raise. Most of them feed, we raise the money, although many of us do maintain feeders of our own, especially on properties where the property owner can't physically do it themselves. And on public property. 

1997-NWTF insists that we begin supporting their efforts by holding banquets and sending them the proceeds. You can only get so much blood from a turnip up here, there's only so many people, and hardly any with enough money to support both the NWTF's banquets AND the feeding, so we withdrew from the NWTF and started the Michigan Wild Turkey Hunters Association, I'm a founding member and am still on the state board. 

Our feeding continues. The flocks top out at approximately 100,000 birds in all of northern Michigan about 1998-99, from there the numbers have steadily declined over the years, due to very large numbers of predators and poor hatching conditions. Maybe 50,000-85,000 now. In my area specifically, which is probably the highest five county area, we have about 15,000 birds, maybe a couple of thousand less since numbers have dropped in the last few years in Otsego and Cheboygan Counties. Our numbers have remained more consistent over the years because of the success of our feeding programs. 

We have never asked for, nor promoted the very high numbers the birds reached in the late 90's. But we could not, in good conscience, stand there and watch them starve-so, where we have been asked, we try to help. We still lose birds, as those years showed, but we have managed not to lose them all. 

2007-Price of corn triples-our fundraising does not. 

That's how this works. Here in Area J, we have a very organized network of people in each area, property owners that are able come to one of two barns in either Charlevoix or Gaylord once a month during the winter, and pick up a 30 day supply of food for their birds-for which we charge a one time membership fee of $15 per year-doesn't matter how many birds they're feeding, and some are feeding hundreds. We have about 200 or so feeders every winter, it varies somewhat as to where they are and how many there depending on how many birds are there and where they are. 


Other chapters of MWTHA have slightly different programs-there's five chapters up here. About 4000 members, more or less. Some conduct pretty intensive feeding programs, other chapters are more casual, depending on the weather in their area each winter, and the chapter's general interest in being active. Most of our members, despite the name of the group, are not turkey hunters, just people who care about wildlife winter survival. 

Several chapters of the NWTF and a number of conservation orgs, like your Wildlife Unlimited there in the UP, also feed. But some are very involved, others aren't, and where there is less interest the wild turkey numbers show it. 

At the same time, in many areas, there are still hundreds of people feeding the birds out of their own pockets-they either don't know about the groups that are out there that can help them, or they don't want help. A lot of them DID ask last winter, more than ever before. We did what we could. 

We have never felt that it was the sole responsibility of the landowner/tenant to take care of these birds in the winter just because they end up on his property. We have always felt it was the sportsman's responsibility-so some of us take that responsibility on. Unfortunately, most turkey hunters don't. There is something like 8000 turkey hunters annually in Area J ALONE. Yet, our chapter only has 300 odd members, and most are NOT turkey hunters. 

We have provided the general public with what many of us who have traveled all over the country to hunt turkey in other states believe is the finest public land wild turkey hunting in the country. And yet, somehow, you feel we're wrong. 

Does that help you to understand this? Probably not, but that's how it works.


----------



## thongg

hard to understand why this thread is still open it seems that it is linda vs all others no one is being changed good luck linda


----------



## Linda G.

It looks that way, but you and I both know there's HUNDREDS of people reading this thread and many are not only in support of what we do, they're learning from it-I've heard from a lot of them in the last few days. They just don't want to post publicly, and I don't blame them.


----------



## scott kavanaugh

Nick Adams said:


> I don't let the fact that I hunt interfere with my understanding of sound natural resource management. Hunting is a recreational activity associated with our natural resources, it is not the sole objective of public resource management. Our public resources should be managed for healthy, robust ecosystems with sustainable populations of a wide variety of animal and plant species appropriate to the local geography, habitat and climate.
> 
> If there are people in the Northern LP who would like to farm free range wild turkeys outside of their natural range for the purpose of shooting them, I have no problem with that. They are welcome to open a private turkey shooting facility in pursuit of that activity. I know better than to confuse that desire with sound public resource management. I do not consider catering to that desire when it conflicts with other resource management decisions (i.e. deer bait ban) to be a significant public resource management priority.
> 
> -na


Here's the thing Nick, everybody has a different idea of sound management. The whole idea by the DNR of putting the birds someplace that they would starve to death, could seem dim to most. You obviously would raise a glass to that one.

The DNR however wanted a thriving turkey population. I hunted their original effort for years in Allegan. Those birds were dumber than Clute himself. Of course later they realized they came from a pen.

Now when they went back to get birds the second time they got better birds. Sometimes when you are trying to achieve something you just have to start, and then see whats broken. With this endeavor it worked out, ok.

It's wasn't perfect, we just had to keep picking up the slack, we were ok with that. But now their all tangled up in their underware over this CWD. Now their screwing up everones hard work by bailing on the birds with the ban. Thats just bad management.

I understand you have the whole everything needs to be in balance with everything management philosophy. I get it. You need plans, and just the right amont of every animal and flower. Your the (we need 9 deer per sq mi or we won't have the sinqi sprout guy).

You can have the last word on this. I'm the Game and hunting guy. I'll listen, but I'm smart enough to know niether of us are going to move much.


----------



## Nick Adams

Thanks Linda (and Scott) for the longer explanations.

I think you put it much more succinctly, and just as clearly, earlier when you wrote:



Linda G. said:


> the people who learned to enjoy turkey hunting found a way to help them not only survive, but have the strength in the spring to thrive and re-produce. *Nobody saw anything wrong with it then, and did not see down the road.*"


We are further down the road. Now some things that are wrong with it are painfully obvious. I would like to think that we can learn from that lesson rather than continue to perpetuate the problem.

-na


----------



## cadillacjethro

scott kavanaugh said:


> Here's the thing Nick, everybody has a different idea of sound management. The whole idea by the DNR of putting the birds someplace that they would starve to death, could seem dim to most. You obviously would raise a glass to that one.
> 
> The DNR however wanted a thriving turkey population. I hunted their original effort for years in Allegan. Those birds were dumber than Clute himself. Of course later they realized they came from a pen.
> 
> Now when they went back to get birds the second time they got better birds. Sometimes when you are trying to achieve something you just have to start, and then see whats broken. With this endeavor it worked out, ok.
> 
> It's wasn't perfect, we just had to keep picking up the slack, we were ok with that. But now their all tangled up in their underware over this CWD. Now their screwing up everones hard work by bailing on the birds with the ban. Thats just bad management.
> 
> I understand you have the whole everything needs to be in balance with everything management philosophy. I get it. You need plans, and just the right amont of every animal and flower. Your the (we need 9 deer per sq mi or we won't have the sinqi sprout guy).
> 
> You can have the last word on this. I'm the Game and hunting guy. I'll listen, but I'm smart enough to know niether of us are going to move much.


Good post Scott. Humans feel the need to change everything. Some things by necessity, and some just because. Whatever the reason, we're stuck with the consequences of both. If I could choose, I would live in Nick's world.:lol:


----------



## Munsterlndr

I understand the point of view (I don't agree with it but I understand it) that wildlife populations should sink or swim on their own without the intervention of humans, as that intervention may create unforeseen problems in the future. What I'm struggling with is what appears to be a logical inconsistency, if you then turn around and support the recently enacted baiting & feeding ban, as part of the DNR's efforts to combat the spread of CDW. Is that not human intervention that will result in higher populations then if CDW was allowed to run it's course? CDW is a naturally occurring event, just as winter in the NLP is. It may well be natures way of correcting over-populated problems. Intervention to prevent the natural progression of the disease within the herd does not seem to be all that different than supplementally feeding a flock of turkeys to prevent the impact of inclement weather. In both cases you are altering the impact of nature for the purpose of sustaining a huntable game population.


----------



## Nick Adams

Munsterlndr said:


> What I'm struggling with is what appears to be a logical inconsistency, if you then turn around and support the recently enacted baiting & feeding ban, as part of the DNR's efforts to combat the spread of CDW. Is that not human intervention that will result in higher populations then if CDW was allowed to run it's course?


I'll bite. 

If CWD (or Bovine TB) were nothing more than a wildlife population issue I would support letting it run it's course without human intervention.

Given that CWD (and Bovine TB) are also considered potential human health issues (and/or have a direct impact on livestock health) I think it is our responsibility to mitigate the impact of these diseases spreading in our wildlife populations. Unlike turkeys, more than just wildlife populations or recreational activities are at stake.

I don't support the LP baiting/feeding ban because I think it will have any impact on my hunting or lead to a permanent bait/feed ban in the LP. From a recreational standpoint I couldn't care less. 

I support the LP baiting/feeding ban because it was part of a coherent response to CWD laid out by our state wildlife managers. As such, I think the CWD response plan should be allowed to run it's course. If, after five or six more months of more intensive CWD testing in the wild deer herd, no additional CWD positive deer are found and the DNR sees fit to reinstate baiting/feeding I won't kick.

I do think the baiting/feeding of wildlife is almost always harmful to sustainable wildlife populations and other natural resources. I don't practice it. I am willing to follow the lead of our state wildlife managers with respect to the political question of whether other people should be allowed to do so. For the next six months they have decided that no one should be feeding deer, intentionally or otherwise, in the LP.

-na


----------



## BigDog25

Linda,

Here is a suggestion:

Instead of whining and crying and bashing the DNR, why don't you first put in your homework of, "What did other states do when CWD was discovered and baiting/feeding was banned?" How did people feed Turkeys recreationally? There are several models of feeders that have been used frequently in the TB zone just for this purpose, as well as in Illinois and many of the other CWD states that are out there.

You then cry that you don't have the funds and need the DNR's help....booo hoo....You know what I say to that, if you want something bad enough, make it happen.

I have lived in towns where the population density was 1/4th of what the UP is and it was so magical how those areas where the largest town for 45 miles was 500 people, yet they still managed to raise more money than areas with towns of 20,000. If there's a will there's a way.

It's great you put so much enthusiasm and "oomph" into trying to rally the troops and by bashing the DNR. It's people like you that disgust me, if you spent less time trying to spread Internet propaganda and sway people's viewpoints on subjects via the internet and instead try to do something productive, whether it be by researching ways to successfully feed turkeys in the winter time, ways to fundraise, ways to recruit people to help, etc. Bashing the DNR or any other group for that matter does nothing more than to just rial people up and does absolutely no good.

So keep on beating the drum, you are wasting your breath....

-------------------------------------

As for everyone else, oh why can't we bait, blah blah blah.....Go to a state where baiting is illegal and compare the quality of their deer herd, size of bucks, buck to doe ratios etc. It is amazing how those poor pitiful people in states where baiting is illegal have still managed to harvest dozens more B&C and P&Y bucks as we do in Michigan.......

As for how could it feasibly spread? Well let's remember if you quit listening to your dumb **** buddies or the guy standing and running his mouth at a sports shop and instead get on the DNR website or go to their office directly. The deer that was found in Kent County was "said" to be born in captivity. I mean come on people, are you that stupid? Did this just magically spontaneously generate in its brain? I don't think so....Deer Breeders and ranches are one of the most dirtiest operations and are crooked as a country road. Illegal swapping of deer both in and out of state, missing paperwork, money laundering, etc. Look at the facts of how much trafficking goes on with these facilities. Now remember, the deer was 3, surely it didn't just get it the day before it was culled from the herd. Was it brought from a facility where it caught it from another deer? Where are those deer? Did any ever escape? Was it possible with that facility being newer that the deer contracted it from something that existed there prior to the erection of the fence?

These are all questions to be considered, the list could go on and on.

People are whining about well if we are going to stop baiting and feeding, are we going to stop this and this and this.

Well, Baiting and Feeding is something us humans are doing, therefore it is the easiest to halt, plain and simple.

The CWD protocol has been in place since 02. It has been on the DNR website for a few years, MDA, you name it. This isn't old news. In fact, if a deer was even found WITHIN 50 miles of Michigan with CWD baiting and feeding would've been banned. So lets say one was found in Indiana on the border and baiting was banned in the lower. Who is everyone going to be pissed at now, The Indiana DNR instead of the Michigan DNR or will the focus still be at the Michigan DNR.

Heaven forbid they are trying to protect a 500 Million dollar a year part of Michigan's economy, not to mention the large Hunting heritage that exists in our state that is unlike any other state out there. Go ahead and be selfish, then if this stuff were to spread, you can tell your Grandkids someday, "Well I remember when you could go out there behind the house and see 5 deer in an evening"


----------



## Linda G.

Three posts and you think you have all the answers...sure, right. First of all, do YOUR homework, and you'll find out that in most, if not all, of the other states where CWD has been discovered, feeding and baiting was already illegal. 

Second, read this thread, I don't think you have. We don't feed turkeys recreationally, and are dead set against it. We only feed for survival. Our chapter INVENTED that "deer-proof" feeder, which only stops the deer from activitely emptying the barrels...it does NOT stop the deer from gathering nose to nose, which is the problem...and will be a problem not just for us, but thousands of people with common BIRD FEEDERS in their yards!

Third, again, read this thread. We HAVE been making it happen, every year since 1986.
Bashing the DNR...right...just telling the truth, my friend. All of this is documented. 

Ask them, and time and time again, including Becky Humphries herself, (you do know who that is, don't you?) will tell you that I have always been honest and fair in my treatment of them, either one on one, on boards like this (do a search and read some of my old threads, oh, I forgot, you're brand new here), and in print...for many, many years. In fact, just this year I sponsored Mary Dettloff, their PR person, for membership in the Michigan Outdoor Writers Association. I have hunted, fished, and trapped with DNR personnel for years. 

Do you work for them...sounds like it...but I'll bet probably not for long, or you would know the truth, too. 

What I am doing here, and have been doing, very successfully, is enlightening people as to the effect the feeding ban will have as a secondary effect on the wild turkey populations of northern Michigan. That's a fact, and will happen this winter, without a whole lot of help from the turkey hunters of northern Michigan to help us pay for the corn due to the incredible price hikes of the last year-that's IF we can still feed at all...if you don't believe this, then, too bad, go somewhere else and try to continue living in whatever fairy tale world you live in.

Has it ever occurred to you that CWD COULD be a genetic anomaly or even just hereditary?? Like many human diseases?? There's a great deal we don't know about this disease, and the Michigan DNR would be first to tell you they DO NOT have all the answers.


----------



## Justin

well said Linda! I agree completely.


----------



## BigDog25

Three Cheers for Linda.......

Where is the documentation that you say exists, rather than here-say, speculation and no scientific evidence to back what you are throwing out there. Are you familiar with Scientific notation? I don't seem to recall seeing any of it in your posts to back, internet links don't mean ****.

I don't think when the turkeys were reintroduced the idea of feeding them through the winter for survival was in the management plan, hence why the population is so screwed up right now.

What about a 2 tom limit in the Spring?

I may have only had 3 posts, but I have watched this site for 2 years browsing and I guess my waders couldn't stand to see the misinformation pile any higher....you and your group of minions that follow you blindly...

Sheep


----------



## solohunter

Finnaly I have to agree with one small thing linda has rambled on about,,, " the DNR does not have all the answers" Other than that? well sorry, we do not all share the feeling that we must sustain an artificially high level of turkeys way beyond what the land can maintain, or what the african sea gulls ( oh I am going to take grief on that one :banghead3 ) can manage to survive on with out a weekly welfare check from people like linda. our deer herd was managed to a higher level that the land could support, NOW, its kill them off to a level sustainable by hunters. 
Mark my words- the N/E bear population is also spinning out of control in oscoda and alcona counties,( cant speak for the other areas) soon we will have to feed them also as the hunting allowed levels are under the breeding population. SO, " the DNR does not have all the answers" is quite correct in that they are mis-managing the turkey popluation as they did with the deer in 452, and will with the bear in red oak- east side. Turkeys;Stop feeding them, or increase the hunting permits to obtain a level that the land can sustain. maybe our DNR is the problem?????


----------



## Justin

I don't know where some people get this idea that there is a huge population problem with turkeys in northern Mich. I hunt four different counties in northern Michigan and in thirty years of turkey hunting have never seen it. Comparing turkeys to deer is apples to oranges. It seems to me that many southern Mich. hunters would like to make turkeys unavailable to the rest of the state. The biggest population problem is down state, where they can't control the pop. of anything.:lol:


----------



## Linda G.

I am increasingly amazed by the lack of Michigan outdoor knowledge some of you have. Either you don't get outside at all or you live in a bubble. 

I am getting very tired of butting my head against a wall with what are obviously people just trying to get my goat. You all need to make a trip up here in February, it will take 10 minutes for you all to figure it out. Do you EVER come up north when it isn't 75 degrees? Go any further than the local latrine?

And you can all stand there very bravely and tell me WE have to let these turkeys starve-as long as it's not you, right? Typical stupid human attitude in the last decade, what is this world coming to...not that any of YOU turkey hunt, but the thousands that do will STILL expect to hear and see lots of birds next year...and that ain't gonna happen. Cause even if we ARE allowed to feed, there will still be HUNDREDS of people who we can't reach (another reason I use the forums) who believe we can't...and the birds in that area WILL die. 

Bigdog, talk to the DNR's Gaylord or Cadillac offices if you want documentation. They've got file drawers full of it. PM me and I'll tell you which biologists recommended the feeding back in the late 80's, they've all retired, but they're all still alive and participating in the program. As for the CWD hypothesis, well, you could start right here on the disease forum. There's lots of info there, in fact, that's where I first heard that scientists are wondering if this could be some sort of genetic malfunction. 

Some basic biology lessons would tell you that a 2 tom limit would do nothing to reduce high numbers in the areas that are overpopulated. You have to take females to reduce a population-just like the deer, duh....and nobody wants to fall hunt, for which there are PLENTY of tags. 

And Justin, a turkey hunter, is right on...in many areas there are NOT too many turkeys. I bet he'd be happy to tell you which ones. I already said that about 20 posts ago.


----------



## boehr

What a thread. Of course if one doesn't agree with Linda..... yes I know from experience. My position is also that supplemental feeding should not happen. The DNR didn't create this promblem as Muster would like to say but those that have feed deer (from their hands) and those "millions" :yikes: of turkeys are the ones that created the problem by creating a population that the habitat can't support. Of course if they were not feed to start with then people wouldn't have to watch them starve in their yards. So go ahead Linda let me have it too now because I know nothing about it either.


----------



## Linda G.

Not from that easy chair in Florida that you've been in for the past year and a half...and when was the last time, when you were still a CO, that you actually worked up here in the winter?

And were you here in 1986 when the regional biologist and the area biologist talked to us? No, you weren't. 

Nuff said about retired CO's who still think they're the Director, or better than the Director. 

Joined the Stewards yet, Ray??

LOL


----------



## fairfax1

Oh hell, I might as well pile on.

Sorry Linda. If you hafta feed 'em to get 'em to live till you can shoot 'em ....well,.....

There would not be so many turkeys that the habitat cannot support them....if......if folks over the years hadn't subsidized their living, boosting their numbers, and thus creating this problem population that cannot support itself.

Perhaps turkeys _could _live in this 'north country' without the hand outs if there were fewer of them.

Maybe they can't live there at all except when we have a period of short or warm winters. 

Maybe the hunting rule change that could reduce this problem population is to allow the shooting of hens in this spring. 

......................

Lastly, the "_dead turkey_" flag being waved as a reason to eliminate the bait ban is simply a red herring. One more tactic in the attempt to get a repeal of the long considered, long vetted, deer issue. 

Perhaps, one could suspect that you are being used to propel another agenda.

Just speculating....that's all.


----------



## boehr

:lol::lol: I knew I could count on a writer who thinks she knows everything.:lol::lol: Sorry but you are wrong on this one. You and others that supplemental feed wildlife cause the problems and then want to blame everyone else and come up with all kinds of excuses. That is a fact. But I gave my opinion and I'm happy, see ya, if I'm really unlucky.


----------



## solohunter

BOEHR probably dont support supplemental feeding to the gators in the canal either,, CWD is spreading fast 

God i love quotes ; 

LINDA: And were you here in 1986 when the regional biologist and the area biologist talked to us? No, you weren't.

( Hmm that was a while ago, so anything from the 2006?? I suspect much has changed with the TB issue and all ) 


LINDA: Michigan DNR would be first to tell you they DO NOT have all the answers. 
((* and you do???)) ( and will not if they dont quit hiring college educated kids who have no practical first hand experience and rely on what they learned in a book and not in the woods )

LINDA:What I am doing here, and have been doing, very successfully, is enlightening people as to the effect the feeding ban will have as a secondary effect on the wild turkey populations of northern Michigan.

( I would not use the word "very sucessfully" quite so fast. - we can take a vote on how many un-educated people you have won over  -) 

LINDA: And you can all stand there very bravely and tell me WE have to let these turkeys starve-as long as it's not you, right? Typical stupid human attitude in the last decade, what the hell is this world coming to.

( and we closed our eyes and didnt watch the deer herd die off in 452 with the baiting / feeding ban there??? and not the CWD state wide ban will kill even more, So go write a short story )

Linda: Becky Humphries herself, (you do know who that is, don't you?) 

( ya i thing she,s the one who signed the latest baiting ban??? )

LINDA: I sponsored Mary Dettloff, their PR person, for membership in the Michigan Outdoor Writers Association.
( Yup and she released the baiting ban news )

BOEHR: I gave my opinion and I'm happy, see ya, if I'm really unlucky.


----------



## solohunter

Boehr hasnt even complained about my avitar, deer, spotlight, night time,,,,,,, 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8


----------



## scott kavanaugh

boehr said:


> :lol::lol: I knew I could count on a writer who thinks she knows everything.:lol::lol: Sorry but you are wrong on this one. You and others that supplemental feed wildlife cause the problems and then want to blame everyone else and come up with all kinds of excuses. That is a fact. But I gave my opinion and I'm happy, see ya, if I'm really unlucky.


Your right Bohr, we should stick our head in the sand or maybe take a trip to Florida out of shame. We could hunt those chickens you guys call turkeys.:lol:

While were gone the (acting) DNR can devastate our turkey population in the NLP like they did the deer population, over stupidity.:sad:

No. I think a better idea would be for both us and the turkeys to stick around and enjoy the very pleasant northern Michigan.:idea:

I guess were just gonna have to figure out a way to continue to be wrong and for the feed to stick around, huh.:evilsmile


----------



## BigDog25

Linda G. said:


> Three posts and you think you have all the answers...sure, right. First of all, do YOUR homework, and you'll find out that in most, if not all, of the other states where CWD has been discovered, feeding and baiting was already illegal.
> 
> Second, read this thread, I don't think you have. We don't feed turkeys recreationally, and are dead set against it. We only feed for survival. Our chapter INVENTED that "deer-proof" feeder, which only stops the deer from activitely emptying the barrels...it does NOT stop the deer from gathering nose to nose, which is the problem...and will be a problem not just for us, but thousands of people with common BIRD FEEDERS in their yards!
> 
> Third, again, read this thread. We HAVE been making it happen, every year since 1986. Without the help of idiots like you.
> 
> Bashing the DNR...right...just telling the truth, my friend. All of this is documented.
> 
> Ask them, and time and time again, including Becky Humphries herself, (you do know who that is, don't you?) will tell you that I have always been honest and fair in my treatment of them, either one on one, on boards like this (do a search and read some of my old threads, oh, I forgot, you're brand new here), and in print...for many, many years. In fact, just this year I sponsored Mary Dettloff, their PR person, for membership in the Michigan Outdoor Writers Association. I have hunted, fished, and trapped with DNR personnel for years.
> 
> Do you work for them...sounds like it...but I'll bet probably not for long, or you would know the truth, too.
> 
> What I am doing here, and have been doing, very successfully, is enlightening people as to the effect the feeding ban will have as a secondary effect on the wild turkey populations of northern Michigan. That's a fact, and will happen this winter, without a whole lot of help from the turkey hunters of northern Michigan to help us pay for the corn due to the incredible price hikes of the last year-that's IF we can still feed at all...if you don't believe this, then, too bad, go somewhere else and try to continue living in whatever fairy tale world you live in.
> 
> Has it ever occurred to you that CWD COULD be a genetic anomaly or even just hereditary?? Like many human diseases?? There's a great deal we don't know about this disease, and the Michigan DNR would be first to tell you they DO NOT have all the answers.


Are these the same biologists you speak of that 20 years go were planting Autumn Olive for Wildlife habitat that people are now working to eradicate? Times have changed and so have the methods.....I don't think you will find in any research the suggestion that animals should be supplementally fed.


----------



## Linda G.

People up here are still planting autumn olive and the conservation districts still sell it every spring. Something else that MIGHT be a problem in southern Michgian that ISN'T in northern Michigan. The deer strip it right down to the roots up here in the winter, every year we lose thousands of plants to the deer, they do eventually grow back, but it's slow-that's IF they don't die from winterkill, which happens to thousands more every winter...and they're one of the few plants that we can count on consistently to produce berries every single year. Huge wildlife provider. 

In fact, I saw a beautiful plant yesterday that I planted on public land with a school group about 15 years ago. It's beautiful, and it was full of birds-ruffed grouse as well as songbirds. 

Not everything is so bad, you know.

No, you don't see a lot in the research and textbooks today. Like common sense.


----------



## cadillacjethro

I think someone kicked boehr's cat.:lol:


----------



## nadarasday

i for one is tired of watching this thread, no baiting is nothing anybody wants. but its the law for now. i just brought a corn feeder from cabelas, i'm out 300 dollars. but i'm not going to whine about it, its part of life. we need to move on and hope everything works out in the long run, walleyequeen


----------



## fairfax1

A poster above observes: "_no baiting_ is nothing anybody wants.

Ah, well, ummmm, ......you may wanna slow that thought down a bit. I'm not sure you'll get everybody followin' you on that one.

Judging by what I read here on the M-S forums, in the newspapers, (and their editorials).....I think that "_no baiting"_ is what a LOT of people want.


----------



## nadarasday

if baiting is the true cause of cwd or tb, i for one would have no problem with a permanent ban, but 1st these pinned deer areas need to be closed up, that is no life for a beautiful animal. my comment was not made in favor of baiting. we have 5 acres of kill plots, we don't need a corn feeder, but i do enjoy watching other animals feed on the corn, but lets face it, alot of people will still be baiting, i for one will not break the law. walleyequeen


----------



## Linda G.

about baiting...we do not feed, and do not encourage feeding of ANY kind, during ANY of the deer hunting seasons. We don't encourage feeding AT ALL unless the turkeys are in dire need, and it is illegal to bait turkeys at all times, so please don't confuse the issue and mix it up with something else.


----------



## yoopertoo

Thanks Linda for all the work and effort you have contributed to your sport. I'm sure your efforts have helped many a Michigan turkey hunter enjoy their sport. I'm sure there are many, many people who appreciate your efforts and support your cause.


----------



## yoopertoo

The idea that an introduced population is somehow inherently bad is just plain wrong. So introducing turkeys where they did not exist in Michigan before is a non issue. Turkeys do fine in both the lower and upper at all times of the year except for winter. The population has a weak point. Feeding them at one point in the year to help them survive that low point does not make them tame. It's ridiculous to think so.

The idea that we should "let nature runs its course" is hypocritical. We as a society "engineer" environments all the time. Sometimes this is bad. Sometimes it is good. When it is bad it is not bad just because it is engineered. It is bad because of some economic downside that out weighs the benefit. Enhancing the turkey population does not have any environmental downside that I know of. We benefit because we get to hunt them. Plain and simple.


----------



## Linda G.

Thank you. I actually saw birds in Alger County two years ago, I had heard there were a few in that part of the UP, but this was right on the edge of Seney...


----------



## scott kavanaugh

fairfax1 said:


> A poster above observes: "_no baiting_ is nothing anybody wants.
> 
> Ah, well, ummmm, ......you may wanna slow that thought down a bit. I'm not sure you'll get everybody followin' you on that one.
> 
> Judging by what I read here on the M-S forums, in the newspapers, (and their editorials).....I think that "_no baiting"_ is what a LOT of people want.


Your right Fairfax there are people out there that want no baiting. And yes, all the QDMr's here at MS and at the DNR are banging the drum.

The hype being created by the DNR and those folks, despite the existing scientific history of CWD, unfortunatly has a lot of people that haven't had time to research this, confused.

I think a lot of people think that the DNR has already screwed deer hunting up so bad, they're terrified at the prospect of it getting worst. So you'll certainly find people that are willing to err on the side of caution.

The QDMr's are however certainly trying to sieze the moment, as you point out. Typing and writing thier butts off. 

This situation will be resolved with time, and the actual Facts. Once everybody sees this bait closure was political and had nothing to do with (current available science). The DNR and the drum bangers position again will get exposed and weaker.

It's just a shame that wildlife, and the majority of hunters have to go through this crap, for the wants of the minority.

There are a few things I'm confident of Fairfax, if we took a vote after we got the science in the hunters hands about CWD. There would be baiting in lower michigan.


----------



## pescadero

scott kavanaugh said:


> While were gone the (acting) DNR can devastate our turkey population in the NLP like they did the deer population, over stupidity.:sad:


Stopping supplemental feeding isn't devastating the turkey population - it's removing an artificial, and ecologically unsound, population from an area where they can't survive without intervention. It isn't stupid, it's the right thing to do.

-- 
lp


----------



## pescadero

yoopertoo said:


> The idea that an introduced population is somehow inherently bad is just plain wrong.


Introducing a non-native species that cannot survive with continued human intervention is inherently bad.

-- 
lp


----------



## multibeard

pescadero said:


> Introducing a non-native species that cannot survive with continued human intervention is inherently bad--
> lp


 Did you mean to say with out human intervention

Does that include those pacific carp, AKA Salmon, that have destroyed my small stream fishing? 

Lets quit planting that non-native species. 

At least the turkeys have not caused any othere species to virtually dis appear like those pacific carp have doen to the trout in the small streams.


----------



## riverman

multibeard said:


> At least the turkeys have not caused any othere species to virtually dis appear like those pacific carp have doen to the trout in the small streams.


Those pacific carp did take care of another species, alewives. Were they native?


----------



## pescadero

multibeard said:


> Did you mean to say with out human intervention


Yep.



multibeard said:


> Does that include those pacific carp, AKA Salmon, that have destroyed my small stream fishing?


Absolutely.



multibeard said:


> Lets quit planting that non-native species.


Sounds good to me.

-- 
lp


----------



## Linda G.

haven't we, pescy? And already heard your thoughts. You would like to see a "natural balance" in this state again...well, that's not possible. Ever again. To get a natural balance we'd first have to get rid of all the people, including those that LIKE salmon and turkeys. I would assume you're in favor of that, too? 

Probably...


----------



## pescadero

Linda G. said:


> haven't we, pescy? And already heard your thoughts.


Someone asked a question, I answered it. If you don't like reading what I have to say, you know where the "ignore" button is.



Linda G. said:


> You would like to see a "natural balance" in this state again...well, that's not possible. Ever again.


No, I would like to see as natural as possible a balance, with as little new introduction of non-native species as possible. The genie is already out of the bottle and we can't stuff it back in... but what we can do is stop opening more bottles full of genies.



Linda G. said:


> To get a natural balance we'd first have to get rid of all the people, including those that LIKE salmon and turkeys.


No, we wouldn't. Humans naturally migrated here around 12-15,000 years ago, and are self sustaining. More like coyotes than the turkeys in question. The turkeys were planted here and aren't self sustaining. We don't have to get rid of the turkeys, they'll disappear all on their own if we just quit interfering.

-- 
lp


----------



## yoopertoo

pescadero said:


> Introducing a non-native species that cannot survive with continued human intervention is inherently bad.


According to your aesthetics and nothing else.


----------



## BigDog25

scott kavanaugh said:


> Your right Fairfax there are people out there that want no baiting. And yes, all the QDMr's here at MS and at the DNR are banging the drum.
> 
> The hype being created by the DNR and those folks, despite the existing scientific history of CWD, unfortunatly has a lot of people that haven't had time to research this, confused.
> 
> I think a lot of people think that the DNR has already screwed deer hunting up so bad, they're terrified at the prospect of it getting worst. So you'll certainly find people that are willing to err on the side of caution.
> 
> The QDMr's are however certainly trying to sieze the moment, as you point out. Typing and writing thier butts off.
> 
> This situation will be resolved with time, and the actual Facts. Once everybody sees this bait closure was political and had nothing to do with (current available science). The DNR and the drum bangers position again will get exposed and weaker.
> 
> It's just a shame that wildlife, and the majority of hunters have to go through this crap, for the wants of the minority.
> 
> There are a few things I'm confident of Fairfax, if we took a vote after we got the science in the hunters hands about CWD. There would be baiting in lower michigan.


I was wondering if you could provide me with some references so I can read the Scientific evidence that shows bating doesn't encourage the spread of CWD? I would really be interested in seeing that. Particularly the scientific history and how it relates to CWD. I go to the public libary a few times a week and this stuff would make for some great reading material.

I think you would be shocked the number of hunters and outdoorsmen that want what is right for not only the heritage of hunting, but for the sustainability of our resource. I myself, nor any of my hunting partners are the types to put a bait pile out. We instead choose to find these crazy things called Natural Food Sources, water sources, bedding areas, runs, and much more. It is true, its not a myth, you can in fact harvest deer without a bait pile. One of the biggest reasons people don't see deer when they are out hunting and I do is 1. They are hunting a heavily baited area that has caused the deer to congregate. 2. They are lazy asses and don't want to be mobile. 3. They don't spend the time in the woods.


----------



## yoopertoo

pescadero said:


> No, we wouldn't. Humans naturally migrated here around 12-15,000 years ago, and are self sustaining. More like coyotes than the turkeys in question.


This is just plain ridiculous. It does not matter that stone age humans were here, the point that we have drastically modified ecosystems is what is pertinent.


----------



## Munsterlndr

Pheasants are not native to Michigan, they were imported here. Without intervention by man, in the form of creating suitable habitat and avoiding the use of certain pesticides, sustainable pheasant populations would be substantially lower than they are currently in Michigan. So should farmers not practice land management patterns that increase the number of Pheasants? There is certainly an argument to be made if a non-native species is imported that supplants a native species and threatens the natives existence. With Turkeys, that is not the case. During many years they exist and thrive just fine. During periods of extended inclement weather, supplemental feeding can help limit the winter kill and sustain a huntable population that can provide both sporting opportunity for hunters and revenue for the DNR. In the absence of any negative impact on the environment or on a native species, just what is the problem with assisting a non-native species in surviving? Hell, with the combination of natural selection and and global warming, they will probably be self sustaining at these levels in a relatively short time, we are just advancing the natural progression slightly. Instead of supplemental feeding, maybe we just need to burn some more hydro-carbons. :lol:


----------



## pescadero

Munsterlndr said:


> Pheasants are not native to Michigan, they were imported here. Without intervention by man, in the form of creating suitable habitat and avoiding the use of certain pesticides, sustainable pheasant populations would be substantially lower than they are currently in Michigan. So should farmers not practice land management patterns that increase the number of Pheasants?


I don't think doing so should encouraged... and if those land management patterns are harmful to any native species they should be discouraged. They certainly shouldn't be practiced by our resource managers, unless the benefit to the pheasants is a side effect of management for native species.



Munsterlndr said:


> There is certainly an argument to be made if a non-native species is imported that supplants a native species and threatens the natives existence. With Turkeys, that is not the case. During many years they exist and thrive just fine. During periods of extended inclement weather, supplemental feeding can help limit the winter kill and sustain a huntable population that can provide both sporting opportunity for hunters and revenue for the DNR. In the absence of any negative impact on the environment or on a native species, just what is the problem with assisting a non-native species in surviving?


1) How honestly can you claim "no negative impact on the environment or on a native species"? They don't deprive any natives of food? They never negatively impact the habitat of any natives? They don't negatively impact any native plant, animal, insect?

2)The problem is that we're sustaining a larger than natural population.

-- 
lp


----------



## Radar420

A quick question: aren't turkeys historically native to Michigan?

Before habitat destruction and unregulated hunting, weren't there always turkeys in Michigan?


----------



## yoopertoo

pescadero said:


> 1) How honestly can you claim "no negative impact on the environment or on a native species"? They don't deprive any natives of food? They never negatively impact the habitat of any natives? They don't negatively impact any native plant, animal, insect?


It doesn't matter. We effect the ecosystems everywhere in the world in some unmeasurable way. Farmers fields effect the insect population. Our forestry practices effect the insect population. Road building effects insect populations. What matters is have we economically impacted the ecosystem in a negative way.


----------



## Linda G.

Wild turkeys once inhabited southern Michigan, but never in any kind of numbers-even down there, the winters were too hard. Along came the white man, and it didn't take very long to wipe them out entirely. 

There are far more wild turkeys in Michigan now than ever before the white man arrived. And watch the turkeys in southern Michigan in the winter, and you'll see they're still being fed. Perhaps not from a barrel from the results of a conservation group's fundraising, but in barnyards where the farmers despise them, in their silage piles, and in their manure. As well as under bird feeders and anyone's yard who feels sorry for them and throws out corn...which everyone did until now for deer, too. 

Again, we take responsibility for the birds, and we are vilified by many for it, when in reality, wild turkeys are being winter fed all over this state...

I think we forget why they were introduced to northern Michigan first-which they were. Long before they were re-stocked in southern Michigan. 

Because of an inherent, although incorrect, belief that wild turkeys needed wild places...and because of all our public land up here available for hunting. 

We still have that, southern Michigan doesn't.

Pescy, in response to your questions "They don't deprive any natives of food? They never negatively impact the habitat of any natives? They don't negatively impact any native plant, animal, insect?"

No, they don't, especially when they're winter fed. Leave them to forage on their own, without winter food when needed, and they'll probably impact the habitat of a lot of species...until they die.

During all but the mildest winters in the NLP and UP, the natural population is ZERO without winter supplemental chow. And I think a lot of hunters might not be happy with the results of that. We'll find out this winter.


----------



## scott kavanaugh

pescadero said:


> Stopping supplemental feeding isn't devastating the turkey population - it's removing an artificial, and ecologically unsound, population from an area where they can't survive without intervention. It isn't stupid, it's the right thing to do.
> 
> --
> lp


It's backwardass thinking, thats going to slowly starve to death flocks of Wild Turkeys, for no reason.

If indeed this insanity transpires, the starvation will be captured on film this winter.

Everone needs to see first hand what the DNR has created. Lets see how much touting Al stewart wants to do about our flock and his management then.

Ya, I know they could cop out and say they didn't feed them, but you know they sure didn't stop anybody did they. They just kept bragging about the numbers, and collecting the cash!!!!


----------



## scott kavanaugh

BigDog25 said:


> I was wondering if you could provide me with some references so I can read the Scientific evidence that shows bating doesn't encourage the spread of CWD? I would really be interested in seeing that. Particularly the scientific history and how it relates to CWD. I go to the public libary a few times a week and this stuff would make for some great reading material.
> 
> I think you would be shocked the number of hunters and outdoorsmen that want what is right for not only the heritage of hunting, but for the sustainability of our resource. I myself, nor any of my hunting partners are the types to put a bait pile out. We instead choose to find these crazy things called Natural Food Sources, water sources, bedding areas, runs, and much more. It is true, its not a myth, you can in fact harvest deer without a bait pile. One of the biggest reasons people don't see deer when they are out hunting and I do is 1. They are hunting a heavily baited area that has caused the deer to congregate. 2. They are lazy asses and don't want to be mobile. 3. They don't spend the time in the woods.


Big dog, I see your a new member this month, great. According to your post you go to the library a lot, so you can read, that's a plus. There is a ton of info and links on CWD and baiting in the disease section of this forum, you can start there to familiarize yourself with this disease. There is also a bunch more in sound off.

The thing about all the science surrounding CWD is, after you have consumed it. There are very few absolute facts. I challenge you to come back to this site with scientific proof that baiting causes the spread of CWD, it isn't there.

Look you and your buddies sound like you have your method of hunting and deeply care about the sport, that's cool.

I think for the most part we're past anyone putting a baitpile (per say) out. However there are way over 50 % of Michigan hunters that at one time or another during the fall want to spead some feed and hunt, or watch. This feed also helps a lot of animals besides deer get ready for the approaching winter. Lots of these guys also hunt natural food sources.


----------



## pescadero

Radar420 said:


> A quick question: aren't turkeys historically native to Michigan?
> 
> Before habitat destruction and unregulated hunting, weren't there always turkeys in Michigan?


Turkeys are native to the southern lower peninsula of Michigan, and likely small populations existed in temperate years further north.

-- 
lp


----------



## pescadero

yoopertoo said:


> It doesn't matter. We effect the ecosystems everywhere in the world in some unmeasurable way. Farmers fields effect the insect population. Our forestry practices effect the insect population. Road building effects insect populations. What matters is have we economically impacted the ecosystem in a negative way.


All that you mention above have negatively impacted the ecosystem. Which is why we need to do these things intelligently, with care, and avoid them where not necessary.

-- 
lp


----------



## pescadero

scott kavanaugh said:


> It's backwardass thinking, thats going to slowly starve to death flocks of Wild Turkeys, for no reason.


No - it's for a perfectly good reason. An attempt to manage nature as nature, as opposed to managing nature as a playground/amusement park for man.



scott kavanaugh said:


> Everone needs to see first hand what the DNR has created. Lets see how much touting Al stewart wants to do about our flock and his management then.
> 
> Ya, I know they could cop out and say they didn't feed them, but you know they sure didn't stop anybody did they. They just kept bragging about the numbers, and collecting the cash!!!!


No doubt the DNR holds a large part of the blame for first introducing the turkey beyond it's suitable range, and then allowing an artificially elevated population to be maintained... but "we screwed up so now we need to keep screwing up" isn't exactly a rousing endorsement for a course of action.

-- 
lp


----------



## cadillacjethro

pescadero said:


> No - it's for a perfectly good reason. An attempt to manage nature as nature, as opposed to managing nature as a playground/amusement park for man.


In a perfect world nature manages nature. If man is to manage nature (no argument here), I think it foolish to think he would not manage it to his benefit. I would call that _human nature._


----------



## pescadero

scott kavanaugh said:


> I challenge you to come back to this site with scientific proof that baiting causes the spread of CWD, it isn't there.


Science does not "prove" things. At all. Ever. Science isn't in the business of proof or truth. 

Science is just a system for seeking the best, predictive, falsifiable explanation for the existing evidence.

So asking for scientific proof is somewhat akin to asking for an apple that is an orange.

-- 
lp


----------



## pescadero

cadillacjethro said:


> In a perfect world nature manages nature. If man is to manage nature (no argument here), I think it foolish to think he would not manage it to his benefit.


...and I think it foolish to think he shouldn't manage it for the resources benefit - because _long term_ that is in the best interests of the resource and of man. 



cadillacjethro said:


> I would call that _human nature._


Sure... greed is a very strong component of human nature. Some like to disguise it and pretend there is such a thing as "enlightened self interest" - but really there is just "self interest".

-- 
lp


----------



## Linda G.

When you find a planet that meets your criteria, let us all know...:lol:


----------



## cadillacjethro

pescadero said:


> ...and I think it foolish to think he shouldn't manage it for the resources benefit - because _long term_ that is in the best interests of the resource and of man.


I think it foolish too, but it is what it is. 





pescadero said:


> Sure... greed is a very strong component of human nature. Some like to disguise it and pretend there is such a thing as "enlightened self interest" - but really there is just "self interest".


You're preaching to the choir.
--


----------



## pescadero

Linda G. said:


> When you find a planet that meets your criteria, let us all know...:lol:


I doubt I ever will - because reality is never pretty... but that is going to stop me from working toward and advocating that we do the right things. For example - just because we'll never stop all crime doesn't we should quit trying.

-- 
lp


----------



## yoopertoo

pescadero said:


> All that you mention above have negatively impacted the ecosystem. Which is why we need to do these things intelligently, with care, and avoid them where not necessary.


You are imposing your own self defined notion of what is "negative". Turkeys are necessary to hunt them. I reject your made up notion of aesthetics and supplant it with my own. I enjoy hunting turkeys and want to do it in the UP.


----------



## Dick Kleinhardt

Just a thought...could it be that PETA/Sierra Club/Greenies have infiltrated into our DNR/NRC and are using their influence to push their anti-hunting adgendas? Their main adgenda is to focus on certain areas whether it be food sources/ farming practices/animal rights. etc....till their mission has succeeded.


----------



## Bob S

Dick Kleinhardt said:


> Just a thought...could it be that PETA/Sierra Club/Greenies have infiltrated into our DNR/NRC and are using their influence to push their anti-hunting adgendas?


Are these the same groups and anti-hunting agendas that just gave us the early September antlerless season? :yikes:


----------



## Gina Fox

Dick Kleinhardt said:


> Just a thought...could it be that PETA/Sierra Club/Greenies have infiltrated into our DNR/NRC and are using their influence to push their anti-hunting adgendas? Their main adgenda is to focus on certain areas whether it be food sources/ farming practices/animal rights. etc....till their mission has succeeded.


 
How about the theory that inaction would make the 'deciders' culpable? Sometimes it is all about cover your ass.

It is NOT an unreasonable suggestion that ARA (animal rights activists) would infiltrate these organizations. They have done so in humane societies and animal welfare organizations all over the world. It is part of their plan and operational procedure. So it would not surprise me in the least if I were to find out someday that there was a PETA person in the DNR.


----------



## yoopertoo

Gina Fox said:


> It is NOT an unreasonable suggestion that ARA (animal rights activists) would infiltrate these organizations. They have done so in humane societies and animal welfare organizations all over the world. It is part of their plan and operational procedure. So it would not surprise me in the least if I were to find out someday that there was a PETA person in the DNR.


I certainly believe the US forest service has an element that is less then enthusiastic when it comes to hunting.


----------



## Gina Fox

I also have a question or I should say comment...on any given day heading North on I-75 I see herds of deer in fields...in other words 'congregating' since this is appears to be a NATURAL behavior, how will the deer know not to do it????


----------



## Linda G.

We need a moderator, I think, to close this thread....way, way, way off subject...??


----------



## scott kavanaugh

Linda G. said:


> We need a moderator, I think, to close this thread....way, way, way off subject...??


Well, I'm going to say this first, for fear of a lockdown. I figured you must have all the mods held in a room someplace, for this thread to ever make it this far.:lol:


----------



## scott kavanaugh

fairfax1 said:


> From the post above: _"Look, they can ban baiting because thats what the DNR, QDM'r's and the bioligist want to do. It's just crap that everyone is trying to hide behind the scientific (theory) that CWD is the reason._
> 
> _The DNR and everyone else that is trying to look the other ....... are hypocrytes or stupid."_
> 
> I saw _'hypocrites & stupid' _and was sure I'd been caught....although I do try not to be either, at least on a full-time basis.
> 
> But the real part of the above post I wanted to address was this:
> 
> _"....they can ban baiting because thats what the DNR, QDM'r's and the biologist want to do."_
> 
> That sentiment begs the question: *Why?*
> 
> 
> Why would the DNR & the biologist WANT to ban baiting?
> What's in it for them if it is banned?
> What possible motive could those folks have?
> If CWD is not the reason (it's crap)....then what would be the _real_ reason?


Well, fairfax why do I feel like I'm being baited here? Oh well I'll eat some corn. No disrespect intended to the 70 or so QDMr's that spend their lifes on this forum.

I think the ODM folk firmly believe that they need to eliminate baiting at all cost. They see it as a lesser way of hunting and also a means to draw deer off of their hunting property (especially their 1 1/2 year olds, their trying to save), this is totaly unaceptable to them. I think they somehow feel they put forth more, and therfore deserve more. They can't get a antler restriction so this will have to do for now.

The DNR consequently has been listening for many years now to the constant rethoric being generated from the QDMr's, for the end of baiting.
Many of these people are prominent inviduals from across the state and wealthy landowners and club members who tend to be somewhat influential. ( keep in mind their not dealing with rocket scientist)

Most any biologist leans towards a natural enviorment in perfect balance. They want just the right amount of trees, birds, flowers. You get it, right.

Most of the people that support baiting unlike a lot of the people that are on the other side of the fence don't have a lot of spare time. Unfortunatly the blue collar folks not only don't have the time to moonlight as pretend farmers, but they generally don't have time to go to the NRC meetings & such and pressure the DNR.

As far as what the biologist planned to get out of it, I certainly can't say for sure, but probably a perfectly balanced ecosystem knowing them.

I don't know if the DNR was appeasing the QDMr's or were actually buying into their crap, but I know that after attempting to push this through, people will look even closer at everything they are doing.


----------



## multibeard

scott kavanaugh said:


> Well, fairfax why do I feel like I'm being baited here? Oh well I'll eat some corn. No disrespect intended to the 70 or so QDMr's that spend their lifes on this forum.
> 
> I think the ODM folk firmly believe that they need to eliminate baiting at all cost. They see it as a lesser way of hunting and also a means to draw deer off of their hunting property (especially their 1 1/2 year olds, their trying to save), this is totaly unaceptable to them. I think they somehow feel they put forth more, and therfore deserve more. They can't get a antler restriction so this will have to do for now.
> 
> The DNR consequently has been listening for many years now to the constant rethoric being generated from the QDMr's, for the end of baiting.
> Many of these people are prominent inviduals from across the state and wealthy landowners and club members who tend to be somewhat influential. ( keep in mind their not dealing with rocket scientist)
> 
> Most any biologist leans towards a natural enviorment in perfect balance. They want just the right amount of trees, birds, flowers. You get it, right.
> 
> Most of the people that support baiting unlike a lot of the people that are on the other side of the fence don't have a lot of spare time. Unfortunatly the blue collar folks not only don't have the time to moonlight as pretend farmers, but they generally don't have time to go to the NRC meetings & such and pressure the DNR.
> 
> As far as what the biologist planned to get out of it, I certainly can't say for sure, but probably a perfectly balanced ecosystem knowing them.
> 
> I don't know if the DNR was appeasing the QDMr's or were actually buying into their crap, but I know that after attempting to push this through, people will look even closer at everything they are doing.


Scott----- Great post!!!!!!

Deer hunting is all about big horns to a vocal minority that wants to run deer hunting for the majority. Like the anti groups, like HSUS Peta etc, if they can not get us one way they will get us thought the back door.


----------



## Justin

Although off the topic a bit, Scott that was probably the best post on this thread!


----------



## NEMichsportsman

scott kavanaugh said:


> Well, I'm going to say this first, for fear of a lockdown. I figured you must have all the mods held in a room someplace, for this thread to ever make it this far.:lol:




I agree we have strayed way off. The mod has been hunting for the last 2 weeks and had limited time or desire to spend time on the internet....


----------

