# Commercializin gon the state's black bear put into perspective



## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Recently gathered the data from MDNR measuring the impact on guiding for black bear. These are figures from 2014. The 2015 data is not totaled up yet.

In 2014, DNR check station data revealed 662 individuals who registered their bears acknowledged having been on a guided hunt. The 2014 statewide black bear harvest is estimated at 1,475 bears registered. Do the math....those 662 bears taken on guided hunts is 44.88% of the entire statewide harvest. Add in those who we know run guiding operations under the radar and we're easily at 50% of the entire 2014 harvest chalked up by commercial operations. MDNR knows this based on statements from individuals feedback at check stations. Considering the high success rate chalked up by guided hunts....this is having a serious negative affect on folks who do not pay to hunt bears.

There are 5 BMU's where guiding operations are most prevalent; Amasa, Baraga, Bergland, Gwinn, and Newberry.

I am not proposing guiding be banned, but it certainly needs have some limitations.


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## Hunter1979 (Feb 26, 2008)

If 1/2 pay and 1/2 don't, I'm not sure what the negative effects would be? I would not pay for a guide if it was feasible for me. But there's no way I can run up and refresh multiple bait sites every couple of days. It would easily cost me $100 per trip just in gas and bait not to mention lodging. Going up 10 times to scout and bait, it's much more cost effective for me to hire a guide.

Now, I've spent months trying to research and find the best guide. By far and away it has been more difficult than researching a guided hunt for any species in any other state. There is no system in place for reviews, complaints, just whether they registered to operate on State land or not. It's strictly word of mouth, or the few outfitters that show up to the expos. I would like to see some sort of improvement on this system as hiring a guide seems to be buyer beware.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Hunter1979 said:


> If 1/2 pay and 1/2 don't, I'm not sure what the negative effects would be? I would not pay for a guide if it was feasible for me. But there's no way I can run up and refresh multiple bait sites every couple of days. It would easily cost me $100 per trip just in gas and bait not to mention lodging. Going up 10 times to scout and bait, it's much more cost effective for me to hire a guide.
> 
> Now, I've spent months trying to research and find the best guide. By far and away it has been more difficult than researching a guided hunt for any species in any other state. There is no system in place for reviews, complaints, just whether they registered to operate on State land or not. It's strictly word of mouth, or the few outfitters that show up to the expos. I would like to see some sort of improvement on this system as hiring a guide seems to be buyer beware.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

The short simple answer is....managing the state's black bear population so 50% of the resource can be commercially exploited don't fly.

Hunter, my statement is not meant to be sarcastic. Please know that. 

The commercial guys success rate is significantly higher than regular sportsmen. For that reason they have a negative impact on the success of other hunters....especially if sportsmen are hunting in areas where commercial baiting operations are set-up. Just ask any of the guides you query what their success rate is. I do not know any of them that would claim a success rate below 50%, and most all will claim a much higher success rate than that. Consequently, the success rate for non-guided hunts in many of the BMU's is in the teens. And, that's some poor quality bear hunting. Michigan sportsmen deserve better than that.

Hunter, there are plenty of downstate folks who hunt on their own in the U.P. and do not need a guide. Of all the dog hunters who hunt in the U.P. they sure don't hire a guide to do their baiting. And I don't no know of any of the folks who have camps in the U.P. that hire a guide to bear hunt. Its just a matter of learning how to hunt bears and doing it yourself. I would be glad to provide you with all the advice 
you need to set-up your own hunt. Helped a few others on this site and they were successful.
Serious offer....just send me a PM with contact information.


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

My First bear hunt was with a outfitter but, I made clear it had to be on private property. It was. I don't think they should allowed to guide on state land. Once I saw how easy it was......its not any different than baiting deer. Rooster has been doing it a lot longer than I have so I'm sure he could give anyone excellent advice. I run all my own baits for running off myself. During season we run them in the U.P and are very successful. We all live in the lower it don't cost us that much. It just takes a little effort IMO it makes that much rewarding when your successful.

I have only bee bear hunting 7 years...........my first bear was over bait with an outfitter........the bear was 200 pounds. I made a couple new friends. 

My second bear was with dogs........he weight 350 pounds.

The second bear was much more rewarding.........we did it ourselves.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

I got it from MDNR's Bear & Wolf Specialist.

Sorry Blue Plaque Guide Service, my mistake...the information came from bear hunter survey data.

The 2015 data is not available, yet.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Blue Plague Guide Service said:


> OK thanks this is interesting info to me


Your welcome. Glad you questioned where the data was collected from so I had a chance to correct my statement.


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## Jgd (Apr 23, 2016)

I have been guided and I have ran several do it yourself hunts in Michigan and I have also guided hunters. I agree with the issues of poor hunter success with self guided hunters. your approach is very narrow and there are many bigger issues effecting bear hunting success, such as the sheer size of the management areas, hunter access with cfa lands, proper management of bears being harvested, and several other issues i'm sure. I have personally guided several hunters that were elderly or not in good enough health to handle a do it yourself hunt. i have also introduced many hunters to bear hunting that didn't have the knowledge to attempt a do it yourself hunt, but now do successfully because of my help. addressing your post its not just as cut and dried as you made it sound. I do appreciate the fact you want to help others enjoy this great sport.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Jgd said:


> I have been guided and I have ran several do it yourself hunts in Michigan and I have also guided hunters. I agree with the issues of poor hunter success with self guided hunters. your approach is very narrow and there are many bigger issues effecting bear hunting success, such as the sheer size of the management areas, hunter access with cfa lands, proper management of bears being harvested, and several other issues i'm sure. I have personally guided several hunters that were elderly or not in good enough health to handle a do it yourself hunt. i have also introduced many hunters to bear hunting that didn't have the knowledge to attempt a do it yourself hunt, but now do successfully because of my help. addressing your post its not just as cut and dried as you made it sound. I do appreciate the fact you want to help others enjoy this great sport.


JGD,

Thanks for your post. Your opinions are worthwhile.

Seems to me our opinions are formed from our life experiences. So, I understand the merit in what you stated. As for me, living here in the NW corner of the U.P. for 43 years I have personally experienced the impact of unlimited and unregulated commercial baiting in the north end of the Ottawa National Forest as well as the Commercial Forest land. The high success, pounding the same area year after year, along with significant habitat loss, and over harvest has destroyed what was some of the highest quality bear hunting Michigan ever had to offer.

To me the highest priority in restoring quality bear hunting is to address the unlimited commercializing first and foremost. Build the bear population back up to where it was prior to 2004 so the DIY hunters success rate greatly improves. 

I am 72 years old and have dedicated a good deal of my life to bears and bear hunting. I guided off and on since I was 23 years old. And I still hit the woods with my dogs in some of the roughest roadless country in Michigan. And, like you I have introduced a lot of folks to bear hunting. Made a lot of good friends along the way.

Based on my experiences, anybody that is not wheelchair bound, or has to rely on a walker, or crutches can easily DIY hunt. And, I will gladly explain how to any sincere individual that is interested.


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## Callinalldeer (Jun 25, 2009)

I have one simple rule in hunting Bears. Hunt with the wind in your favour and make it so the Bears can not circle the bait. I really enjoy baiting.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> ry.
> 
> I am not proposing guiding be banned, but it certainly needs have some limitations.


What is your arguement?

All you have pointed out is bunch of people do it.

I have not used or plan to, but don't care.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> JGD,
> 
> To me the highest priority in restoring quality bear hunting is
> d.


I am not convinced there is a problem. Other then maybe they should give out more tags.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

Callinalldeer said:


> I have one simple rule in hunting Bears. Hunt with the wind in your favour and make it so the Bears can not circle the bait. I really enjoy baiting.


I like running baits too. But guiding others does not appeal to me. So, good for those that take it on. Here in Michigan there is certainly a place for guiding as some have pointed out. But reasonable regulation also has a place.

Like Well driller said it's not that hard to do your own baits. With fuel prices low, this would be a good time for many to try it themselves. If you can't for some reason, or you want to try hounds then you should be able to find a trust worthy guy to help you out. 

Quick story then I'm going to work on the yard. I know a guy that used to guide in the Strong's area. He told me about a time when a guy from Detroit hired him. This guy came up in dress shoes and a 3/4 length leather coat. The guy loaned him some rubber boots and took him to a bait. The guy shot a bear and couldn't of been happier. I've no doubt that bear's hide is adorning the guys den to this day. I have to say though, the only way this guy would have gotten a bear without my friends help would be if he hit it with his car.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Why do we care?

If my dad takes me to his best hunting spot, is it wrong?

Also I don't care if guide is non sanctioned by DNR as bait is legal IRS business not DNR


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

Last year we had an 80 year old man walk to a tree 900 yds off road. He made a perfect shot killed the bear also he had two heart attacks in his life. The problem is a few exploiting a resource on public land for profit thinking they own the land when you attempt to hunt there. Don't say it doesn't happen I had it happen to me in the upper and the lower peninsulas.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

welldriller said:


> Last year we had an 80 year old man walk to a tree 900 yds off road. He made a perfect shot killed the bear also he had two heart attacks in his life. The problem is a few exploiting a resource on public land for profit thinking they own the land when you attempt to hunt there. Don't say it doesn't happen I had it happen to me in the upper and the lower peninsulas.


What is being exploited?

What does 90 year old guy have to do with anything ? At first I thought you were going to say how good it was helped this 90 year old guy go hunting 1 more time.

I hope when I am 90 I can hunt without some self righteous person poo pooing.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

If there were so many guides we were tripping over them, I would say regulate with a lottery. But that is not the case.

I baited my own land. Neighbor helped during week. I thought about offering money, to make my life easier. If I do, I hope he doesn't tell IRS.


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## Hunter1979 (Feb 26, 2008)

I appreciate both of your offers guys! I'm not even sure I'll get a tag this year. I'm sitting on 4 points, so it will be a 50/50 chance to draw in Carney this year. Hopefully, things work out, if not I'll definitely be in contact.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Blue Plague Guide Service said:


> We had a really good friend that is paralyzed from waist down and we carried him all the way into a tree for him to harvest his first bear think it was just as rewarding for us as him


I am glad you did it and not some guide. If a guy doesn't have friends as good as you he should not be allowed a bear


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

Rounder said:


> What is being exploited?
> 
> What does 90 year old guy have to do with anything ? At first I thought you were going to say how good it was helped this 90 year old guy go hunting 1 more time.
> 
> I hope when I am 90 I can hunt without some self righteous person poo pooing.


Exploited???

My point is no money changed hands.........hunter helping hunter........not for profit.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

welldriller said:


> Exploited???
> 
> My point is no money changed hands.........hunter helping hunter........not for profit.


I was asking what is being exploited by guides.

Then I was asking what does your story have to do with the discussion .

Not everyone has someone that can help.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

If guiding is a problem maybe it should only be allowed on private land.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

I don't think it is a problem. You have a hunter with a tag for public land.


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## Wurm Slinger (Dec 10, 2013)

Rounder said:


> I don't think it is a problem. You have a hunter with a tag for public land.


I believe the exploitation your asking about, in this discussion, (correct me if I am wrong Rooster) is people who guide on public land are using public resources for personal gain at the cost of other hunters. There may be other points being touched upon in this discussion but from what I have read this seams to be the meat-n-potatoes of it.

When I am lucky enough to afford the time off work I enjoy hunting the Sturgeon River Gorge area in the Baraga unit. Only do-it-yourself hunts for me as I enjoy doing the work. To each their own if you hire a guide. My issue is trying to compete with the hundreds of baits that are spread thru the woods by bait hunters, dog hunters, guides and those who bait just to bait even thought they do not draw a tag. I'm not saying anything should change because everyone has as much right as I do, just putting in my 2 pennies.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

Wurm Slinger, thank you for your post. The concern is not just the personal gain they reap off our natural resources. Guiding provides a service to folks. But, the problem is it has gotten to the point where it needs to be regulated some limitations are needed, too. There also needs to be consumer protections for clients who hire unethical guides.


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

I don't think anyone is 'raking it in' by selling guided bear hunts. The main costs being time, fuel, & bait. No doubt some have sold hunts where the bait sites have been marginal. Eventually those guides should run low of clients.

I've seen 1st time hunters who really appreciate seeing the bear get skinned, cut up and processed within a few hours of the kill. Often it's warm and a quick trip to the freezer is essential. That detail would vary with the guide, check ahead of time.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Nov 5, 2007)

The average fee for a weeks guided bear hunt over bait averages between $1,000 and $1,500 with some as high as $2,500. Each guide is allowed to maintain 12 baits. Those who bring in "assistants" can add an additional 12 bait sites for each assistant. The idea that its a break even small business is simply false.


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## welldriller_old (Jan 23, 2005)

sourdough44 said:


> I don't think anyone is 'raking it in' by selling guided bear hunts. The main costs being time, fuel, & bait. No doubt some have sold hunts where the bait sites have been marginal. Eventually those guides should run low of clients.
> 
> I've seen 1st time hunters who really appreciate seeing the bear get skinned, cut up and processed within a few hours of the kill. Often it's warm and a quick trip to the freezer is essential. That detail would vary with the guide, check ahead of time.


All those "costs" are write offs on taxes.........just like any other business...........all costs are written off.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Wurm Slinger said:


> I believe the exploitation your asking about, in this discussion, (correct me if I am wrong Rooster) is people who guide on public land are using public resources for personal gain at the cost of other hunters. There may be other points being touched upon in this discussion but from what I have read this seams to be the meat-n-potatoes of it.
> 
> When I am lucky enough to afford the time off work I enjoy hunting the Sturgeon River Gorge area in the Baraga unit. Only do-it-yourself hunts for me as I enjoy doing the work. To each their own if you hire a guide. My issue is trying to compete with the hundreds of baits that are spread thru the woods by bait hunters, dog hunters, guides and those who bait just to bait even thought they do not draw a tag. I'm not saying anything should change because everyone has as much right as I do, just putting in my 2 pennies.


I have never hired a guide. Unless we run out of bears or start tripping over guides I don't care. The benefit is the hunter who bought a tag. 

I think some people in this thread are just jealous, or need an excuse why they didn't get a bear.

Should we ban fathers from helping sons? Helping your crippled buddy get a deer, seems just as bad.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Wurm Slinger, thank you for your post. The concern is not just the personal gain they reap off our natural resources. Guiding provides a service to folks. But, the problem is it has gotten to the point where it needs to be regulated some limitations are needed, too. There also needs to be consumer protections for clients who hire unethical guides.


What is this harm you keep talking about? You talk like we are running out of bears.

I don't want 1 bear per acre.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> The average fee for a weeks guided bear hunt over bait averages between $1,000 and $1,500 with some as high as $2,500. Each guide is allowed to maintain 12 baits. Those who bring in "assistants" can add an additional 12 bait sites for each assistant. The idea that its a break even small business is simply false.


How many of these people are really guiding that many people? 

If they are, I don't care. I am not against people making money. The problem with our country is people jealous of sucess.


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## Winterover (Jan 22, 2001)

I keep hearing "regulating guides" and "too many guides". To bait in the Ottawa National Forest (ONF) you already need to be licensed by the USDA. The last I knew there were only about seven guides licensed (this was two years ago). If there are more than that running baits in the ONF then they are doing it illegally already and nothing is being done about it. What makes anyone think that licensing the guides through the state will make the enforcement any better? I hunt the area and use a guide for three reasons: 1) too expensive to travel twelve hours each way with my handicap wife to run baits in August, 2) I hunt with my 79 year old father who is unable to walk over about 1/4 of a mile, 3) I just had my fourth cancer surgery earlier this month & the damage done to my body has restricted what I am able to do in the woods by myself (regretably).

We have used four different guides over the years, the first one turned the business over to his son who did not run baits like he should have, only three sets of tracks going in to the bait site which means he did not keep the bait up, so we changed guides. The second was a good and knowledgeable guide, I shot my only bear with him and my mother also shot her only bear (at the age of 67) with him. When we called him for our next hunt we found out he had died of a heart attack, which brought us to number three. We had to scramble to find someone after finding out about the death of number two. We were put in contact with number three through a friend. On the third day of the hunt he said "you guys are on your own, I have to go back to work". The fourth guide we use is very knowledgeable as well as licensed by the USDA. He has done a good job for us and will only take so many people to keep the quality of the hunt higher and the impact to the bears in his hunt area low. I will not name the bad guides publicly; however, whenever I am asked about guides I tell the person who the are and that I recommend they not use them.

Winterover


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## TVCJohn (Nov 30, 2005)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> The average fee for a weeks guided bear hunt over bait averages between $1,000 and $1,500 with some as high as $2,500. Each guide is allowed to maintain 12 baits. Those who bring in "assistants" can add an additional 12 bait sites for each assistant. The idea that its a break even small business is simply false.



I've said this before......IMO spending a $1000-$1500 for a Michigan bear hunt is not a good value. It will of course depend on what you're getting out of the deal but when you compare each side by side, overall....IMO go north if you need a bear fix real bad. By shopping around, you will find an Ontario bear hunt offers more for about the same dollars and now they opened up the spring hunts to NR's. You could even work a deal with an outfitter up there and do a spring hunt and a few months later go back up for a fall hunt. New Brunswick hunts are now looking attractive too with their 2 bear limit. Manitoba, Sask and Alberta hunts are a little too spendy.


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## Wurm Slinger (Dec 10, 2013)

I 


Rounder said:


> I have never hired a guide. Unless we run out of bears or start tripping over guides I don't care. The benefit is the hunter who bought a tag.
> 
> I think some people in this thread are just jealous, or need an excuse why they didn't get a bear.
> 
> Should we ban fathers from helping sons? Helping your crippled buddy get a deer, seems just as bad.



I haven't read any threads where people are complaining about their personal success. Nor have I read where anyone is advocating banning or restricting anyone from the sport.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

Wurm Slinger said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't read any threads where people are complaining about their personal success. Nor have I read where anyone is advocating banning or restricting anyone from the sport.


Then why do they care?


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## sourdough44 (Mar 2, 2008)

There are reasons it takes more points to draw a 1st period tag, the success rates are higher then drift lower with the season.

It would be at least a full time job to run 12 QUALITY baits. Then even those sites will taper off as they are hunted and bears are killed.

If someone doesn't like the idea of hiring a guide, then DIY is the option. If the Hunter doesn't have a buddy or contact who is versed in bear hunting they would be more likely to hire someone.


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## Rounder (Nov 11, 2015)

It is not like the guides are selling bear parts for money. Though being able to sell what you throw away might help with poaching.


They are helping hunters who have a tag. DNR gives out tags based on population.


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