# MBHA poor decision!!!



## Big Game (Feb 7, 2002)

wyle_e_coyote said:


> This is not a smart move by the MBHA, deviding hunting a trapping groups like this. Groups that band together to help the MBHA fight against a ban on baiting and hound hunting only a few years back. This is a sad day for outdoorsmen and women. we do not need a way to devide our groups. We should be supporting each other. If there is not enough for both groups to share,then there should not be any taken at all!!!



Which organization do you think was one of the major contributors to getting the dove bill passed? Many of the members traveled down to Lansing to voice their own opinions. Who organized that? The Michigan Dove Hunters Association? Not really. As far as my own personal feelings on this, I ended up being in favor of it. At first I wasn't because of all the anti-hound people on this site. It seemed like for a few months we were constantly being blamed for something. I put my own personal feelings aside and ended up calling supporting the dove thing because to do otherwise would not be right for the sportsmen of this site or the state.


----------



## Cooner (Dec 24, 2002)

Thank you Big Game!!!I've restrained myself from saying anything to that guy. Last year he informed me how houndsmen are all trespassing violators with no regard for the law. He then went on to tell me to leave his conibears alone that he sets on State Land. Insinuating I'm a thief. He has no use for us period & it does no good to argue with him. He gets all emotional & lashes out before he even thinks about what he's going to say.I've seen his responses on the Michigan Trappers Board & he's quite opinionated to say the least.Just tell him you're concerned about snares & their effect on accidently caught hunting dogs & he goes beserk.Most guys would just try to explain their use & what to do incase of an accidental catch-but not him.Don't waste your time arguing with him he won't listen to reason & I really think he does more harm than good by lashing out the way he does.Did I tell ya we had a couple hounds caught in traps this year-without tags either.Does this mean all trappers are slobs???Course not.Not all houndsmen are greedy slobs either.


----------



## Big Game (Feb 7, 2002)

Yeah I know his type. This time of year the woods up here are full of his kind.


----------



## shotgunner (Jan 15, 2003)

dave it would be a NEW season because there hasn't been one.

reading through your posts on this thread & others suggests to me that you have some sort of personal pet peve with hound hunters. you would like to paint a picture that hound hunters are a ruthless, "greedy", self serving bunch. not true.

i openly support exactly what you have been crying & campaigning for and how do you respond? by calling me "dumb" and saying i have "no clue" i don't appreciate that and feel you are outspoken. 

one more thing, if these cats [or ANY other animal pursued with dogs] are that fragile that they cannot survive a chase, how have all the "huge numbers" of bob cats caught & released from traps pulled through? i suppose that is alot less stressfull for them........

splitshot, wow........ is that how i come off? someone who feels they are "morally superior"? i only used the comparison to illustrate that some game animals are ran for the sport of running alone. this could be done with or without a tag as long as there was an open season. sorry the "tongue & cheek" went over my head. 

"They didnt seem to care about those land owners just like they dont seem to care about trappers." borrowed from split shot.

i'm not a member of MBHA and never have been. do i know and hunt with some who are? you bet. there seems to be a tendancy to lump any and all who like to run hounds in together. i don't care for that, there are alot of individuals with individual thoughts out there.

i did trap some when i was young and walked a short line around home. ***** & muskrats were the target. i enjoyed it, it just never "stuck" i moved on to firearms hunting when i became mobile. the first bobcat i ever saw i helped release from the trap of a close family friend. 

there are people here on our family farm trapping right now and at other times of the season. my closest friend and work partner comes from a long line of family trapping history and was the only one competant enough to thin the nuisance beaver down to a more livable number [for now].

trappers are a minority? no more so than hound hunters. weve been targeted more than once ourselves.

trappers want to go to a lottery system? count on my support. want to close the kill season for the upcoming winter to provide time for population studys? let me know where to sign.......

thanks. SG


----------



## Big Game (Feb 7, 2002)

Well said shotgunner. I agree with you 100% and feel the same.


----------



## predatordave (Feb 24, 2003)

i personally dont have a clue how the dnr or whoever does the counting can actually figure out how many bobcats are out there. can anyone tell me how they get their numbers. 

i think everybody just needs to go out on a designated weekend in there own designated area this winter and count every bobcat they see and mark every track and crossing and other types of sign we can find on maps with detailed notes. then just all of us should put all of our data together and actually figure out how many bobcats are out in the woods. i think that is the only way that bobcat numbers could be figured out accuratly. 

later, dave


----------



## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

You houndsmen are the saving grace for all Bobcat in the state.

Dave


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Shotgunner,

First I didnt say you thought you were morally superior. The fact that you made the statement made me think that you felt there was something better about just treeing the cat and letting it go as opposed to killing it. I was saying there is nothing wrong with either.

I also have nothing against hunting with dogs and would defend them just like I would defend trappers. In fact some of my best memories are running dogs for ****. Something that is hard to explain if you have never done it.

When I talked about trespassers I was not referring to sportsmen or hunters but to slobs. There is a big difference between dogs running on private land unplanned and running dogs in an area where the guys know the dogs will end up on private property. There is no defense for that period.

Trappers who dont run their trap line within a reasonable time are also slobs and I wouldnt classify them as sportsmen either. The problem comes when someone who hunts with dogs or traps illegally is defended by the group because they are of the same ilk. Someday we will have to realize that these guys are not doing us any good and threaten us all. 

If I wasnt clear, I see a problem if an organization tries to stop one group from using their chosen legal method without curtailing their own. You cant just have a gut feeling and say there are not enough cats to go around without some evidence. That makes a lot of people think you just dont want others taking cats because it might spoil your fun and I dont mean you personally.


----------



## Northcountry (Feb 4, 2004)

I think this 10-day season was put in place as a small trial run, a sampler. To trap during this season, you need to go get a free permit at a license agent. I am sure that all (or a statistically significant amount) of applicants will be surveyed to see how successful they were in trapping. I do not believe that the bobcat population will be wiped-out because of this short season. It is a very good way to guage success for planning future years, though. 

I totally agree with the idea of a lottery/permit system for taking bobcat. The permitee could choose their method and be surveyed afterward. This will allow collection of the success ratio, population and harvest data. Then again, all bobcats already need to be examined and sealed at a field office, dont they? So that part wouldnt be new.

As a strategy, I do think that the houndsman made a terrible decision by a lawsuit. It is aggresive and dividing. Outdoorsman, as a brotherhood, should discuss our concerns and differences together with the DNR/NRC and work things out in our own house. Filing a lawsuit against your own "family" is not cool. Nothing good will ever come of it.

-NC


----------



## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

Big Game said:


> Which organization do you think was one of the major contributors to getting the dove bill passed? Many of the members traveled down to Lansing to voice their own opinions. Who organized that? The Michigan Dove Hunters Association? Not really. As far as my own personal feelings on this, I ended up being in favor of it. At first I wasn't because of all the anti-hound people on this site. It seemed like for a few months we were constantly being blamed for something. I put my own personal feelings aside and ended up calling supporting the dove thing because to do otherwise would not be right for the sportsmen of this site or the state.


The MBHA was not the ONLY group to raley together for a dove season BIG GAME!!! Many member from our NWTF chapter were also there, including myself. 
The Michigan Hunting Rights Campaign members include Commemorative Bucks of Michigan, Huron Pointe Sportsmen's Association, Michigan Bear Hunters Association, Michigan Bow Hunters Association, Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners, Michigan Hunting Dog Federation, Michigan State Chapter of the NWTF, Michigan State United Coonhunters Association, Michigan Trappers Association, the National Rifle Association and the U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance. What are you trying to say? Now the MBHA is all even now, because it helped with the dove season. Now they do not have to work together with other groups now.. Come on man! 

I am not anti hound at all !! I hunted bear with hounds this fall and enjoyed it so much I offered to lend a hand with next seasons training! I have also been invited to hunt rabbits with beagles this year which will also be a 1st for me, and I am looking forward to! I am very hound hunt friendly, but the MBHA is being very greedy. *If there are not enough for both groups then close the season or go to a lottery !! *Why is this not clear to the MBHA? The MBHA needs to try and make it fair for all parties not just themselves or drop the suit. I agree that allot of members here do not understand hound hunting. I think it is country wide! The MBHA are going to make enimies with MTA. Not a good way to get support.



Originally Posted by *Dave Lyons*
_One more thing about your run and release. You have NO CLUE how much this stresses a bobcat and its possiblity of surival. Think of how much energy is wasted on your chase and then think about how much energy it will take the bobcat to get food after you chase and release. Dumb thinking


Dave_


Dave, I have to say that a cat caught in a trap will be just as stressed, before and after release. I don't think that is a good argument at all!


----------



## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

I will say one last thing to both the MBHA and the MTA. If any two traditions are most at risk from anti-hunting attacks it is trapping and bear hunting!!!!! I think those two groups should be working together !!!


----------



## Dave Lyons (Jun 28, 2002)

wyle_e_coyote,

Not to change the subject. But you will enjoy your rabbit hunt very much. I have owned Beagles all my life until I got my lab. 

Dave


----------



## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

Dave Lyons said:


> wyle_e_coyote,
> 
> Not to change the subject. But you will enjoy your rabbit hunt very much. I have owned Beagles all my life until I got my lab.
> 
> Dave


I have always hunted rabbits. Always just me tromping through the weeds and kicking brush piles. I am realy looking forward to it! One of the fine members of this site gave me an invite.. hope he does not change his mind...LOL

I was hoping to get to it early seeing how I have already filled my frezzer with venison, but a guy at work ask if I could get him some meat. I think I may go out and take a doe during muzzle loader, if not this weekend.


----------



## Kevin Smith (Jul 16, 2003)

From the MBHA site......

MBHAs purpose, as defined by its founders, is To promote and foster the wise use and conservation of Michigans natural game resources. Included by name in the mission statement is the black bear, but also named is the bobcat. 

MBHA members and others who hunt bobcats believe numbers are down in both the U.P. and the Lower. 

Bobcat pelt prices in the last few years have been rising. 

Hunting and trapping pressure in both peninsulas has increased significantly in the last few years. Meanwhile the harvests have tailed off. That may indicate that the take has now approached or possibly exceeded a prudent limit. 

MBHA, Michigan Hunting Dog Federation, Michigan State United **** Hunters Association and Upper Peninsula Bear Houndsmen Association have been lobbying the DNR and NRC to lower the U.P. bobcat take from previous years three cats to one, to improve registration, sealing and licensing procedures to reduce the illegal take of cats, and to not liberalize the Lowers take by establishing a trapping season. 

The DNR gave the NRC three options to choose from if the NRC wanted to establish a Lower trapping season: 1) 11-day season in units C and D (C and D cover most of the northern Lower); 2) 11-day season just in Unit C (C covers the north half of the northern Lower); *3) no season this year, but a possible future season regulated by a lottery. MBHA said it would be satisfied with Option 3), but the NRC chose Option 1), the most aggressive. * 
Option 3 would give the DNR and NRC time to wait for bobcat scientists to collect more data, so the NRC could make a sound scientific decision. 

Since 2003, Central Michigan University has been conducting a DNR-commissioned study on the Lowers bobcat populations. Using radio-telemetry and scent stations, they are trying to determine the composition and sizes of the Lower populations. The scientists in essence say their study is not far enough along (In 2003, they monitored only five collared cats and had just 49 visits to stations) to reach any conclusions that would justify adding a trapping season now. 

Though the new bobcat season restricts trappers to only legholds on private lands, the restriction is unenforceable. Trappers can legally set snares, legholds and Conibears on public and private lands for other furbearers. It will be easy to register illegally trapped cats. 


Some Numbers 

Based on U.P. data in 2001 and 2002 surveys, females make up only 27% of hunters take, but 48% of trappers take. Trappers also take a higher percentage of juveniles. 

In the U.P. about 700 cats, on average, are trapped per year, about 400 are taken by hunters. In the Lower, hunters take about 200 per year. 

*In both peninsulas between 2002 and 2003, bobcat hunters and trappers days afield increased 36%, yet their harvest dropped 21%. * 

An MSU survey of fur harvesters, commissioned by the DNR, showed that if bobcat trapping were opened in the Lower, *the number of participants would jump from about 2,500 hunters to 5,500  7,700 hunters and trappers. * 

END 

Pretty scary stats....harvest down in spite of increased pursuit, very little population study, and a survey indicating that pursuit could double or triple.

Widespread reports from many that pursure them annually and have for many years that numbers are down, while state data is extremely limited should weigh heavy into consideration.

MBHA did support the option with a lottery - indicating they are willing to share, as many think they are just being greedy.

MBHA is not the bad guy, the action is in the best interest of the future of the cat and sustainable numbers for all of us to enjoy.


----------



## fowl (Feb 15, 2003)

My final points on this topic are:

1. I think that there is insufficient evidence to suggest that a limited trapping season will negatively impact the cat pop.

2. I think that MBHA could have pursued other options besides legal action.

I own hunting dogs, and many times will not hunt unless it is behind a good dog. I also have trapped in the past, and plan on trapping again in the future (as time allows). 

This issue should not be about method of take. It should be about TAKE (period). We need to look at the facts. Put all of your perceptions aside. It doesn't matter whether or not you "think" that the cat population can handle a trapping season. What matters is CAN the cat population, in reality, handle a trapping season. Some claim that cat numbers are down. Why are they down? Is hunting or trapping additive or compensatory? How many cats can be harvested before we really start to impact survivorship of the overall population? If our harvest is drastically impacting the population lets limit take by all methods. We really need to work together on issues like this. Work against each other will only help to KILL hunting, trapping and our outdoor way of life.

Good luck to all this season, in whatever prey you pursue.


----------



## Northcountry (Feb 4, 2004)

*"From the MBHA site......
Though the new bobcat season restricts trappers to only legholds on private lands, the restriction is unenforceable." * 

Perhaps, but so are alot of hunting rules. If a pack of hounds goes onto private land and trees a cat, and the sweaty hunter shoots it after the long chase, this is also "unenforceable" during registration at the DNR field office. What we are both describing is called poaching and its done by criminals, not sportsman ruled by ethics, morals and laws. Whats your point?

*"Trappers can legally set snares, legholds and Conibears on public and private lands for other furbearers." * 

Thats quite a broad brush statement, applying word games like the anti's might do. Heres another example:

_Hunters can shoot game with virtually any gun on the market, whilst perched in trees or pursuing game with hounds, day or night._

Of course, both statements are "true" in a sense but its not quite that simple. Getting back to the MBHA statement, they really need to read the trapping regs. For instance, snares are allowed on private land only, and the season for their use doesnt begin until January. The lower-peninsula bobcat trapping season is Dec 10-20, so there is no overlap or potential harvest with that method. Toss that point out, but nice try anyway.

*"It will be easy to register illegally trapped cats." * 

Again, whats your point? Is this unique to trapping? Are you saying that a houndsman or deer hunter cant register/check their illegally-taken game? Why would they want to suggest that a bobcat trapper would? <hint: dirty little PR statement trick which will work on simple-minded people>

Personally, I'm all for a lottery system where the permitee can choose their own method of harvest. If the MBHA agrees with that, then great. But PR releases like the above are misleading, derogatory and aggressive towards trapping...something you'd expect anti's to publish. And thats why I think the trappers feel their under attack. 

-NC


----------



## Cooner (Dec 24, 2002)

I think it's time for a group hug here. Yes, trappers & "sweaty hunters"!!!!
It's also time for Kevin Smith to repost how he as a houndsman likes to hunt with dogs. You know the story Kevin. My side still hurts from that story.  

Sweaty hunters?????Trappers don't sweat????Lets see the data to prove that one.Who was goin' round smellin' sweaty armpits for this scientific study???Was this a federally funded study on hunters with smelly pits????Perhaps the deodorant companies are missing a target group here?Please inform the rest of us backwater rubes-we're dying to know about this sweaty hunter study.


----------



## wildchild (Apr 10, 2003)

> First of all there is no evidence that such a restrictive trapping season will negatively impact the bobcat numbers in the N. lower.


 Just wondering if there is any evidence what a restrictive trapping season COULD do?  

ah another thread about hound hunters. Guess people just dont give up.

Anyways 1996 WE ALL VOTED IN Proposal G to use principles of sound scientific management in making decisions regarding the taking of game.
The issue is NRC are not using the data collected to make that decision.
it is in violation of a law we voted in. 
MBHA is making the NRC uphold their end of that law, which they have not since there is not enough data collected to do so.

please correct me if i am wrong.

and how did this become another hound bashing thread?


----------



## wyle_e_coyote (Aug 13, 2004)

It is not a hound bashing thread at all !! I am very pro hound hunting, in all forms. There are alot of people that do not understand hound hunting, but it is not shown on this thread. I see where trappers are mad at the MBHA, but they are not bashing your sport!!! Don't try to skirt the issue by throwing in ..us poor hound hunters always get picked on... I am not a trapper,and I do not own hounds, but I have done both! I am an outsider to both parties.

Explain to me...

*3) no season this year, but a possible future season regulated by a lottery. MBHA said it would be satisfied with Option 3), but the NRC chose Option 1), the most aggressive. *

Does this mean that the MBHA's lawsuit supports NO take on bobcats AT ALL? If that is what they are proposing then I agree with them. Now, if they are saying no trapping, but leave the hunting season open, then the lawsuit only helps the hunters...not the cats...and it is not fair to the trappers, bottom line.


----------



## Northcountry (Feb 4, 2004)

Excellent post, Wyle....I agree 100% with you.

I have no problem with hound hunters either, I would love to hunt with them!
I believe we are all brothers and need to act that way, thats all.

Since a couple of guys have had fun with my post, where I used the term "sweaty" houndsman, please allow me to re-phrase....

What I meant was _exhausted_ or _fatigued_. I didnt mean to imply that houndsman are stinkier or sweatier than anyone else, I was trying to describe someone all worn out after a long chase through a swamp. 

Geeze, the PC police are everywhere!

-NC


----------

