# Vet issue, maybe?



## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

So I wanted to know if this is weird and they are over charging me or is this standard operating procedure. As many of you know I have a new pup. I have been taking hime to the vet for his shots. Along with the new pup I have been taking my other dog Louie for boosters. The first two times both dogs had to go they charged me $100 per dog plus the cost of shots. That was for the vet visit. Then they had me bring the pup back again for more shots and another $100 charge plus shots. Now I have to come back one last time for the last of his shots. I don’t remember it costing this much for Louie when he was a pup. Does this sound right?


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

Sounds a little excessive to me but I'm cheap. My wife gives my hounds and house dogs 5 way shots from tractor supply, at 10$ per shot. Only vet is for rabies at 25$. Now today we took 4 pomeranian puppies for shots and health checkups. Plus flight papers as they are sold and being shipped to Colorado. Total cost $253.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Should be about half that for a scheduled visit.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Seems odd , but I've not been studying fees. I took the plunge and asked... Ladyfriend says your fees are too high.
Alright , she just checked a receipt from a recent visit. Visit with exam 24.50. shot (single) 20.50. (45 total for visit).

With your rates for an office visit when getting a shot? (vs exam too, which your returning pup didn't (my opinion) need again already) , I'd be telling them if they are going to charge a hundred dollars to see the inside of the building each visit , I'll be bringing both dogs each visit. 

Puppy visit $55. (No shot, thorough exam.)
Combo shot $30. 
Rabies shot 30. Another place a rabies shot was 16.
Exam $45
Rabies shot & exam was $55 on another dog.

Your location , and the offices specialties and equipment can figure. So can the owner(s).
But seems quite high for the west side of the state we're familiar with.


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## Waif (Oct 27, 2013)

Skip the lepto shot. Too often fatal.


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## miruss (Apr 18, 2003)

After mine started doing the same i went here
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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Have you bought any Lumber Lately or Gasoline? This Vet may be high as far as pricing is concerned but he/she may just might be getting ready for when the Real inflation that is coming. As a Service industry Vets may charge what ever the market will bare. Change vets if you think he/she is gouging you!
Remember Economists always say people vote with their  pocket books.

Hal


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## Ronnie D (Dec 8, 2020)

My ex wife works at a vet clinic and when asked about pricing 1st visit w/shots 55.00, next 2 visis w/ shots 42.00 each and 18.00 for rabies. Sounds like you're being over charged a bit.


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## Mike da Carpenter (Nov 26, 2017)

I got tired of the price gouging and started going to TSC on their vet clinic day. Saved money, got the same results as going to a vet’s office. I understand the Vet needs to make money, but so do I. Got to find your balance and comfort zone.


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## Ottenbad (May 16, 2020)

cost me 52 for the exam in GR


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## U.P.Grouse Chaser (Dec 27, 2018)

I get charged 58.00 per office visit per dog plus the cost of the shots


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

I felt like this didn’t make any sense but thanks for the input. When I had questioned them the second time I went they got ****** with me. I won’t be going back to Stoney creek veterinary clinic anymore after this last shot. I think I will be looking into doing the shots myself. I fully understand that there is inflation and everybody has to make money and that’s fine but there is a fine line between making money and ripping someone off. I used to work for myself installing and servicing hvac equipment. I did the best to help my customers so I could go to sleep not feeling like a scumbag. Charging someone to come back over and over is ridiculous.


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

I would like to add with vet visits and shots for both dogs I am very close to $1000.00 and half of that is just the visit costs alone. That is why I’m heated. That would be like paying for service calls over and over when the service man didn’t finish the job to start with.


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## Ranger Ray (Mar 2, 2003)

Find another vet.


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## sparky18181 (Apr 17, 2012)

Seems high to me for just an office visit Look into Titer testing It was popular when I was handling my K9.


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## cwk33041 (Dec 30, 2013)

I think alot has to deal with location of the vet and their overhead. Just to give you an idea this was my last vet visit. I always feel like I am overpaying but who likes bills.... I have another vet appointment tonight in fact, and I will follow up if I get a exam fee, but the $100 per visit seems excessive to me. 

Below is for two dogs.


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

sparky18181 said:


> Seems high to me for just an office visit Look into Titer testing It was popular when I was handling my K9.


Our old country vet over by saline was a fan of titer testing. In his opinion most dogs were over vaccinated.


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## ih772 (Jan 28, 2003)

cwk33041 said:


> I think alot has to deal with location of the vet and their overhead. Just to give you an idea this was my last vet visit. I always feel like I am overpaying but who likes bills.... I have another vet appointment tonight in fact, and I will follow up if I get a exam fee, but the $100 per visit seems excessive to me.
> 
> Below is for two dogs.
> 
> View attachment 768934


This is on par for what I'm paying in Genesee county. My vet is great and I feel he charges a fair price for his services.


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## U.P.Grouse Chaser (Dec 27, 2018)

When I first brought my pup home and started the vaccinations My vet would give a max of 2 vaccinations per visit. by the time they added bordetella and lymes It took 3 visits to get her covered. I had close to 500.00 in costs


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

U.P.Grouse Chaser said:


> When I first brought my pup home and started the vaccinations My vet would give a max of 2 vaccinations per visit. by the time they added bordetella and lymes It took 3 visits to get her covered. I had close to 500.00 in costs


Is that including the office visit?


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

I used to use a thing called the spay and neuter express when I lived downstate. It is certainly not a high class vet, its a big rv type thing that is a mobile office. They would travel from city to city doing vaccinations. No visit charge, only charged you for the shot. Cheap because all the work was done by vet techs, only spay/neuter done by the vets. You don't need college degree to know how to administer a scheduled vaccination. Maybe there is something like that on the east side?

Anyone have an idea how much an emergency visit on a weekend would normally be? I had to go this past weekend and the base charge was 225, I felt that was pretty fair but don't really know.


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## U.P.Grouse Chaser (Dec 27, 2018)

It was 58.00 per office visit 3 visits so 174. in office visits and 50.00 a pop for the shots 6 of them so 300.00 in vaccines these are 2018 prices i have not noticed a huge increase in prices, the office visits are still 58.00 if i bring in both dogs its 58.00 a piece for office visits


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## DirtySteve (Apr 9, 2006)

I went though a few receipts for my shorthair. I couldnt find a regular vet office visit fee over $41. They ranged $27-41 over his 10 yrs. Shots and heartworm tests etc. Were on top of that. This was between 2 vets in lapeer county. I have also had follow up visits for issues that ranged from free to $17. I had one incident where he needed and antibiotic. They charged me for antibiotic and it was a vet that was covering for regular vet who was on maternity leave. When we had to go back because issue still existed one of the regular vets said the medication given wasnt strong enough and it was a mistake to prescribe it. Visit was free and new medication was given free.

Most expensive bill i have had was $325 that was at an animal hospital. $50 office fee, $250 ultrasound and $24 medication.


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

So it’s sounds like The general concensus is I’m almost paying double of what everyone else is. I’ll defiantly start looking around


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## 6Speed (Mar 8, 2013)

Covid surcharge? PM me and I'll give you my vets contact info in Plymouth if you want to get quotes and check. He's a fair guy.


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## Tomfive5 (Dec 15, 2015)

I live in southern Oakland County, and I do not pay $100 for office visit, and I dont even have to pay a "office" fee for boosters. The last booster my dog got was $52, $42 for the shot and a $10 Vet Tech fee. I believe my vet handles it that as long as my dog gets a checkup once a year he does not need to get see a Vet for boosters, the vet tech handles that so its only a $10 fee.


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

Tomfive5 said:


> I live in southern Oakland County, and I do not pay $100 for office visit, and I dont even have to pay a "office" fee for boosters. The last booster my dog got was $52, $42 for the shot and a $10 Vet Tech fee. I believe my vet handles it that as long as my dog gets a checkup once a year he does not need to get see a Vet for boosters, the vet tech handles that so its only a $10 fee.


What vet do you go to?


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

Tomfive5 said:


> I live in southern Oakland County, and I do not pay $100 for office visit, and I dont even have to pay a "office" fee for boosters. The last booster my dog got was $52, $42 for the shot and a $10 Vet Tech fee. I believe my vet handles it that as long as my dog gets a checkup once a year he does not need to get see a Vet for boosters, the vet tech handles that so its only a $10 fee.





6Speed said:


> Covid surcharge? PM me and I'll give you my vets contact info in Plymouth if you want to get quotes and check. He's a fair guy.


Plymouth is to far for me. I live in macomb county


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## sparky18181 (Apr 17, 2012)

micooner said:


> Our old country vet over by saline was a fan of titer testing. In his opinion most dogs were over vaccinated.


And he is exactly right in my opinion.


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

sparky18181 said:


> And he is exactly right in my opinion.


If I remember him correctly he stated if the dog was vaccinated correctly starting with the puppy shots by 3 years of age the titers showed that the dog would be good for the rest of life including rabies.


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## sparky18181 (Apr 17, 2012)

micooner said:


> If I remember him correctly he stated if the dog was vaccinated correctly starting with the puppy shots by 3 years of age the titers showed that the dog would be good for the rest of life including rabies.


I’m not sure about all of that but I kinda have a feeling that rabies would be one that you might be able to get away from since a lot of cities require it


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## Mike da Carpenter (Nov 26, 2017)

Tomfive5 said:


> I live in southern Oakland County, and I do not pay $100 for office visit, and I dont even have to pay a "office" fee for boosters. The last booster my dog got was $52, $42 for the shot and a $10 Vet Tech fee. I believe my vet handles it that as long as my dog gets a checkup once a year he does not need to get see a Vet for boosters, the vet tech handles that so its only a $10 fee.


I live in North Central Oakland County. You can’t go anywhere for less than a $100 bill (usually 3 of them actually). That’s why I started going to TSC. I’m happy with them.


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## augustus0603 (Oct 24, 2005)

What area of Macomb? If you're in the Warren area, I use North Main Animal Hospital in RO. I probably pay around $500-$600 a year in visits and shots for 3 dogs.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

Holy cow.
38 for annual exams
20 for 3year rabies
23.50 for dhp
22.38 fecal
20 lepto
28 heartworm check
123 for sentinel ( 25 dollar rebate)
A big year is a 1100 for all five dogs after rebate??


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

augustus0603 said:


> What area of Macomb? If you're in the Warren area, I use North Main Animal Hospital in RO. I probably pay around $500-$600 a year in visits and shots for 3 dogs.


Chesterfield


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## Ronnie D (Dec 8, 2020)

The vet i mentioned is in Ferndale if that helps


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## micooner (Dec 20, 2003)

michiganmaniac said:


> I used to use a thing called the spay and neuter express when I lived downstate. It is certainly not a high class vet, its a big rv type thing that is a mobile office. They would travel from city to city doing vaccinations. No visit charge, only charged you for the shot. Cheap because all the work was done by vet techs, only spay/neuter done by the vets. You don't need college degree to know how to administer a scheduled vaccination. Maybe there is something like that on the east side?
> 
> Anyone have an idea how much an emergency visit on a weekend would normally be? I had to go this past weekend and the base charge was 225, I felt that was pretty fair but don't really know.


Our daughter works 12 hour shifts on the weekends for an emergency vet outfit down here by Livonia. She said you need to go out and buy some lottery tickets. Lol. Emergency c section at that place starts at 2400$ and nobody leaves out of there for less than $500.


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## cwk33041 (Dec 30, 2013)

Just wanted to follow up with Mark if you are still considering finding a new vet. I went to the vet yesterday for two vaccines. Just to let you know, the dog was given the vaccines and doctor came out to talk to me about the dog. No $100 fee as you were getting. I would get a new vet.


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## michiganmaniac (Dec 9, 2008)

Lol looks like I owe my vet a big tip! We woke him up at 6 am Sunday morning, he drove 30 minutes to his clinic, ran toxicology on my pups urine, and gave him a shot and antibiotics for 240 bucks.


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

michiganmaniac said:


> Lol looks like I owe my vet a big tip! We woke him up at 6 am Sunday morning, he drove 30 minutes to his clinic, ran toxicology on my pups urine, and gave him a shot and antibiotics for 240 bucks.


What was wrong with your dog?


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

shaffe48b said:


> Are you remotely serious? _*Yes I'm comfortable giving medications because it's flipping easy. I'm not comfortable removing quills because it's so hard *_that the vets themselves literally put the dog under to remove them. Oh wait...there is that anesthesia vaccine I have in my closet.
> 
> Your second comment might exceed your first in it's hilarious factor. You realize that most vets are, by definition, a small business.


My mistake.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Nostromo said:


> My mistake. I tried speaking to you as though you were a fully functioning adult.


Yes nostromo. You are so right. Any functioning adult knows that anyone can administer medication if they can remove porcupine quills. 

That is apparently except for every vet I know of that expects you to administer not only heart worm preventative but virtually every multiple dose medication they give you.

Heck any functioning adult would know that it makes no difference that your responses make no plausible sense whatsoever. I mean we hire vets to do the easy things. Do the hard things yourself.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

shaffe48b said:


> Yes nostromo. You are so right. Any functioning adult knows that anyone can administer medication if they can remove porcupine quills.
> 
> That is apparently except for every vet I know of that expects you to administer not only heart worm preventative but virtually every multiple dose medication they give you.
> 
> Heck any functioning adult would know that it makes no difference that your responses make no plausible sense whatsoever. I mean we hire vets to do the easy things. Do the hard things yourself.


Okay. Lets try this:
Broken Nail = Supper Glue
Porcupine Quills = Needle Nose Pliers
Heart Worm Prevention = Follow manufacturers recommendations.
Love = This where you let your emotions have a say.

Best of luck!


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Nostromo said:


> Okay. Lets try this:
> Broken Nail = Supper Glue
> Porcupine Quills = Needle Nose Pliers
> Heart Worm Prevention = Follow manufacturers recommendations.
> ...


Ironically most of what you said here is not recommended by any veterinarian I've dealt with. Super glue on toenail just seals in whatever gunk is in there...directly from a vet. Do you really think that you are going to get all the quills on an active dog with a needle nose pliers especially with no one else to help you hold the dog? Must be why vets recommend you bring them in for a visit with sedation and a thorough exam.


But one thing vets do recommend. You can definitely administer your own dogs' medication. Wait, let's not give them any ideas.


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## Lamarsh (Aug 19, 2014)

gundogguy said:


> Have you bought any Lumber Lately or Gasoline? This Vet may be high as far as pricing is concerned but he/she may just might be getting ready for when the Real inflation that is coming. As a Service industry Vets may charge what ever the market will bare. Change vets if you think he/she is gouging you!
> Remember Economists always say people vote with their pocket books.
> 
> Hal


x2 on this. Everything is getting more expensive. My mom is a vet, and it's the same increases there. Relatedly, her office has been slammed. For whatever reason, they cannot seem to control how many people are coming through their doors. She works at a larger clinic that is also a hospital, and they have a day or two a week that takes "walk ins," and people wait for those for 4+ hours because they are unable to get an appointment at their own vet for 1+ months out. It seems there's some shortage of vets at least in the SE Mich area.


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

You do know shaffe48b you can comment with out being snappy. Coversation after conversation you are constantly snapping at people and just acting like an all around jerk. It’s really not necessary. And gets old quick.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Mark4486 said:


> You do know shaffe48b you can comment with out being snappy. Coversation after conversation you are constantly snapping at people and just acting like an all around jerk. It’s really not necessary. And gets old quick.


Yes because one thing that never gets old is being told I'm not acting like 'a fully functioning adult's or that 'most of us certainly see a problem' with anyone who disagrees with Nostromos patently absurd idea(s). Yeah, let's get some more of that for sure.


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## Mark4486 (Oct 14, 2015)

shaffe48b said:


> Yes because one thing that never gets old is being told I'm not acting like 'a fully functioning adult's or that 'most of us certainly see a problem' with anyone who disagrees with Nostromos patently absurd idea(s). Yeah, let's get some more of that for sure.


This has nothing to do with nostromos comments. Just you. Your rude to everyone all the time. And I have meet you in person and you don’t act like you talk on here. Just chill man and say what you have to say. You don’t have to jump down anybody’s throat.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

shaffe48b said:


> Ironically most of what you said here is not recommended by any veterinarian I've dealt with. Super glue on toenail just seals in whatever gunk is in there...directly from a vet.


Okay, here is how I do it. First, I trim back the nail as far as I dare. Then, I irrigate (debride) with usually sterile eye wash because it's sterile and of course handy. Then, I dry it with canned air because again it's handy. If you are home you could use a blow dryer. But I would not recommend you use your compressor. Then, I apply the glue among the layers and press them all together. Done.


shaffe48b said:


> Do you really think that you are going to get all the quills on an active dog with a needle nose pliers especially with no one else to help you hold the dog?


I've done it more times than I could count. 

Each of these things are easy as long as you assemble the equipment first. Then secure the dog so he's not going anywhere. 

Again, best of luck!


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Mark4486 said:


> This has nothing to do with nostromos comments. Just you. Your rude to everyone all the time. And I have meet you in person and you don’t act like you talk on here. Just chill man and say what you have to say. You don’t have to jump down anybody’s throat.


How could it have nothing to do with who I'm responding to? That makes no sense.


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

I have used crazy glue many many times over the years.Works fantastic.I have cauterized a ear that lost a good piece in a fight.
I have also removed 100's of quills from my dogs with my fingers on my own..
Never had to take a dog in yet.knock on wood.
Jack would go in as a shorthair and come out as a wirehair.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Mark4486 said:


> You do know shaffe48b you can comment with out being snappy. Coversation after conversation you are constantly snapping at people and just acting like an all around jerk. It’s really not necessary. And gets old quick.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

gundogguy said:


> View attachment 770118


Psychological projection. The process where people like gundog take their own faults and imagine them to exist in other people.

Ironically, even the person (me) who is always using facts and analysis to deal with people like gundog who are always arguing out of some sense of moral superiority.

Yes, a classic case of projection.









Psychological projection - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

shaffe48b said:


> Psychological projection. The process where people like gundog take their own faults and imagine them to exist in other people.
> 
> Ironically, even the person (me) who is always using facts and analysis to deal with people like gundog who are always arguing out of some sense of moral superiority.
> 
> ...


When you find yourself in a hole. Stop digging and let someone help you climb out.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Nostromo said:


> When you find yourself in a hole. Stop digging and let someone help you climb out.


I'm in a hole? You spent a quarter of this thred arguing with one responsible dog owner who didn't want to pay for heart worm tests. At least you had a leg to stand on there because some responsible individual might agree with you.

But then you spend the next quarter of the thred arguing with another responsible dog owner that if he doesn't remove porcupine quills he shouldn't 'administer medication' to his dog. Now you are officially in the land that no credible individual will at any point agree with you. 

Yet you're equally dull buddy gun dog gets on here saying I'm not using facts and logic and you say I'm in a hole. Should we interview a panel of veterinarian and canine experts on this one nostromo? Should we cite veterinary research? How about analyzing the data of what results from self removal of quills and self administering medication? What will it take for you to admit you are wrong when you are so obviously so?


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

shaffe48b said:


> I'm in a hole? You spent a quarter of this thred arguing with one responsible dog owner who didn't want to pay for heart worm tests. At least you had a leg to stand on there because some responsible individual might agree with you.
> 
> But then you spend the next quarter of the three arguing with another responsible dog owner that if he doesn't remove porcupine quills he shouldn't 'administer medication' to his dog. Now you are officially in the land that no one credible individual will at any point agree with you.
> 
> Yet you equally dull buddy gun dog gets on here saying I'm not using facts and logic and you say I'm in a hole. Should we interview a panel of veterinarian and canine experts on this one nostromo? What will it take for you to admit you are wrong when you are so obviously so?


Admit I'm wrong? Done! That should free you up to be nicer to your fellow forum members. Have a great day!


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## GrouseHntr (Nov 2, 2008)

birdhntr said:


> I have used crazy glue many many times over the years.Works fantastic.I have cauterized a ear that lost a good piece in a fight.
> I have also removed 100's of quills from my dogs with my fingers on my own..
> Never had to take a dog in yet.knock on wood.
> Jack would go in as a shorthair and come out as a wirehair.


Curious. Do you (or *Nostromo) *use a towel or dowel/stick for the mouth to keep it open and from biting? 

In the past it has really just been a matter of hemos on hand and enough bodies to hold the dog, or in light cases just hold the dog by the collar. Only once did a dog go to the vet and that was because the dog had a revenge issue with porkys and anyone holding pliers haha. Thinking about shooting one and teaching my dog to point them, my first setter did and that saved a whole lot of hassle.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

GrouseHntr said:


> Curious. Do you (or *Nostromo) *use a towel or dowel/stick for the mouth to keep it open and from biting?
> 
> In the past it has really just been a matter of hemos on hand and enough bodies to hold the dog, or in light cases just hold the dog by the collar. Only once did a dog go to the vet and that was because the dog had a revenge issue with porkys and anyone holding pliers haha. Thinking about shooting one and teaching my dog to point them, my first setter did and that saved a whole lot of hassle.


No, I've never used a dowel or anything. It might be a good idea though. Could save you a couple digits. lol


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

GrouseHntr said:


> Curious. Do you (or *Nostromo) *use a towel or dowel/stick for the mouth to keep it open and from biting?
> 
> In the past it has really just been a matter of hemos on hand and enough bodies to hold the dog, or in light cases just hold the dog by the collar. Only once did a dog go to the vet and that was because the dog had a revenge issue with porkys and anyone holding pliers haha. Thinking about shooting one and teaching my dog to point them, my first setter did and that saved a whole lot of hassle.


I train them to be treated and worked on.
I simply do this from the day I get them.They are dogs and their minds are malleable early on.
I stick my hands in their mouths,grab tongues,teeth,gums,fingers down the throat,pinch all over and such to the point that it is acceptable behavior from me.
Secondly only the lower jaw can move.I firmly and assertively take posession of it with one had and then work with the other.
I also insist I am Alpha.
If you ever lose contention or don't get it your way with a dog they will not always comply.
Submission is the way of the wild.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

I'm not sure how far I would take the dominance thing when you have a dog that is in pain, afraid, or confused. Probably get you as far as being macho dad with a kid that doesn't want a shot. Yes, dogs might be less nervous or fearful in general if you are in general firm and in charge. But that isn't going to overcome many situations. In fact, I believe there's probably a correlation between dogs that are soft and submissive in general (i.e. a female Brittany) and dogs that are going to freak when you try operating on them no matter how much the same dog will allow you to fondle it in a typical situation.

If you are comfortable taking quills out yourself then that's good for you that you saved yourself some money and perhaps even taught your dog a more detailed lesson in the process. I'm personally able to get 'most' of them out. But when the dog's freaking out and all it takes is a bump of the gums or tongue to keep you from getting he pliars on he quill it definitely becomes a difficult operation. That's the way it goes.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Nostromo said:


> ...and we're back to crazy. lol


Oh ok I won't be sarcastic. It sounds pretty dang good to me taking his advice vs the advice of heartguard who are less concerned about my dog's welfare 99.9999 percent of the time and more concerned about the potential of getting sued 0.0001 percent of the time.

The reason the vet offered the no test option was to incentivize people to give preventative year around because he was seeing dogs contract heart worm during warm spurts in central Ohio winters. He decided it was better to incentivize year around prevention even if it meant that he forego testing.

The problem with your 'best practices' is that few people follow them. Actually, no one follows all of them. At least his 'better practices' was relevant to the situation of serving dogs and owners better than heart guards way of not getting sued.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

shaffe48b said:


> I had a vet in Ohio that didn't require a yearly test...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

9mm you should become an official informant to like FDA enforcement or the FBI or something. I mean with these established veterinary practices in populated areas publically skirting FDA regulations with impunity. The fact that they are giving heart worm preventative without prescriptions despite the fact that they can write prescriptions just goes to show how flagrant they are about the law, guidances, regulations, united nations resolutions and all of the high treasonous things you've mentioned.


They could absolutely use men like you high power. Men of principal. Men who will let those established veterinarians know what their FDA guidelines are.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

shaffe48b said:


> Oh ok I won't be sarcastic. It sounds pretty dang good to me taking his advice vs the advice of heartguard who are less concerned about my dog's welfare 99.9999 percent of the time and more concerned about the potential of getting sued 0.0001 percent of the time.
> 
> The reason the vet offered the no test option was to incentivize people to give preventative year around because he was seeing dogs contract heart worm during warm spurts in central Ohio winters. He decided it was better to incentivize year around prevention even if it meant that he forego testing.
> 
> The problem with your 'best practices' is that few people follow them. Actually, no one follows all of them. At least his 'better practices' was relevant to the situation of serving dogs and owners better than heart guards way of not getting sued.


 Then he's an unethical canine health care provider. If he gives Heartgard (note spelling) to a dog owner who subsequently gives it to a dog already infected with adult heart worms as opposed to larvae stage heart worm the preventative will then most likely kill the dog. Heartgard is meant to kill the larvae stage of the worm . That is the purpose of the blood test - is the dog infected with adult heart worm ? Heartgard is a preventative medication. A dog already infected with adult heart worms calls for an entirely different and extended protocol of treatment. Why is this so seemingly difficult for you and others here to understand ?

9mm Hi-Power


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

shaffe48b said:


> They could absolutely use men like you high power. Men of principal. Men who will let those established veterinarians know what their FDA guidelines are.


Where did you come up with "guidelines" ? It's not a guideline, it's a regulation, do you understand the difference ?

*"FDA* develops *regulations* based on the *laws* set forth in the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C Act) or other *laws* – including the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act – under which *FDA* operates. *FDA regulations* have the full *force of law*."

9mm Hi-Power


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> Where did you come up with "guidelines" ? It's not a guideline, it's a regulation, do you understand the difference ?
> 
> *"FDA* develops *regulations* based on the *laws* set forth in the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C Act) or other *laws* – including the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act – under which *FDA* operates. *FDA regulations* have the full *force of law*."
> 
> 9mm Hi-Power


This is exactly why we need you to be the enforcer on this issue. We could all write a recommendation for you to the FDA, FBI, International Criminal Court at the Hague, etc.

Actually what we might need is education. Someone like you to go up to these vets and speak truth to power. Someone to tell them exactly what he read on the internet forums about their practices.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Nostromo said:


> _ "PRIMARY DIAGNOSTIC SCREENING • The American Heartworm Society recommends annual screening for all dogs over 7 months of age with both an antigen and a microfilaria test. • The current generation of heartworm antigen tests identifies most “occult” (adult worms present but no circulating microfilariae) infections consisting of at least one mature female worm and are nearly 100% specific.
> Differences in sensitivity exist especially in cases with low worm burdens and/or low antigenemia. ° Currently there are no verified tests capable of detecting infections consisting of only adult male worms. • All positive antigen tests should be confirmed through additional testing prior to the administration of any therapy. ° Confirmation is accomplished upon the identification of circulating microfilariae, or when another positive result is obtained utilizing a different type of antigen test. "_
> AHS guidelines
> 
> You can read the entire guideline by clicking the link. I understand there are people in all walks of life who refuse to follow guidelines, codes, laws, you name it. There certainly are vets who will charge you more than necessary and some that charge office visits to periodic or casual customers. This is a business decision. A Vet not following established guidelines is being negligent.


Thanks, but the vet is not breaching his or her duty to me (ie acting negligently) if I waive claims of negligence (ie give them immunity). When they recommended blood tests on my old dogs prior to surgeries and I waived those tests, it wasn't an issue. I was informed of why the blood tests were recommended, I waived the tests and the vets weren't too concerned with negligence under those circumstances. They're getting paid for the surgery regardless of whether the dog dies due to complications that could have been identified with the waived blood tests. I'm sure there are surgical guidelines that recommend the pre-op testing but apparently waivers are acceptable under that circumstance.

They treat heartworm differently, in my opinion, because it is a bread and butter part of their practices. Worth the cost of refusing infrequent requests and refusals to follow their guidelines like me to keep the vast majority of their patients in line.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

kek25 said:


> Thanks, but the vet is not breaching his or her duty to me (ie acting negligently) if I waive claims of negligence (ie give them immunity). When they recommended blood tests on my old dogs prior to surgeries and I waived those tests, it wasn't an issue. I was informed of why the blood tests were recommended, I waived the tests and the vets weren't too concerned with negligence under those circumstances. They're getting paid for the surgery regardless of whether the dog dies due to complications that could have been identified with the waived blood tests. I'm sure there are surgical guidelines that recommend the pre-op testing but apparently waivers are acceptable under that circumstance.
> 
> They treat heartworm differently, in my opinion, because it is a bread and butter part of their practices. Worth the cost of refusing infrequent requests and refusals to follow their guidelines like me to keep the vast majority of their patients in line.


Negligence is among others things failure to follow established guidelines.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Nostromo said:


> Negligence is among others things failure to follow established guidelines.


The elements of a negligence cause of action are duty owed, duty breached, proximate cause and damages. The vet is not negligent if he or she doesn't owe me a duty. He or she doesn't owe me a duty if I provide him or her with a waiver. As indicated above, I'm sure pre op blood tests are guidelines, and in my experience the vets don't have an issue permitting waiviers of pre op tests to do the surgery.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

kek25 said:


> The elements of a negligence cause of action are duty owed, duty breached, proximate cause and damages. The vet is not negligent if he or she doesn't owe me a duty. He or she doesn't owe me a duty if I provide him or her with a waiver. As indicated above, I'm sure pre op blood tests are guidelines, and in my experience the vets don't have an issue permitting waiviers of pre op tests to do the surgery.


That almost sounds like an attorney wrote it or something


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## birdhntr (Jan 25, 2014)

This topic is going of track.
The topic is about excessive fees.
If the cost gets excessively expensive more dogs will end up euthanized.
Low cost spay and neuter services have been working for quite some time now to fight this problem.
If every vet started charging what Mark experienced where would that take us.
He is up over a grand already.
I have 5 dogs and like I stated a 1100 is a big year for my five and that includes the sentinel,vaccines, and the annual exams.
In my eyes this stuff isn't where a vet should cash in on basic services.
The services of specific needs and care for the pets are where they earn better income.
Some vets are attempting to make a fortune on basic services and many of them then turn around and send you off when you need special care.
Gold Diggers.
I'm sorry but drawing some blood and sending a stool out for testing isn't exactly veterinarian care.
It doesn't take a vet to do this part at all.
Heck you can get shots for yourself from Walmart, kroger,miejers,Walgreens, without a doctor participating at all.
Heck doctors don't even draw your blood or check your vitals for your annual.


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## Gsphunteronpoint1 (Mar 8, 2018)

I’m currently looking for a new vet as well. Any recommendations in the lapeer area with a vet that understands sporting breeds would be appreciated. I’ve had my fill of my current vet. (Hollow Corners in Dryden)


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Gsphunteronpoint1 said:


> I’m currently looking for a new vet as well. Any recommendations in the lapeer area with a vet that understands sporting breeds would be appreciated. I’ve had my fill of my current vet. (Hollow Corners in Dryden)











Bird Dog Vet


Hello all, Picking up our new and first versatile pup(WPG) Memorial Day weekend. I’m wondering if anyone has had any good experiences with vets in the metamora geared more toward hunting dogs. Let me know, thanks!




www.michigan-sportsman.com


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## Gsphunteronpoint1 (Mar 8, 2018)

shaffe48b said:


> Bird Dog Vet
> 
> 
> Hello all, Picking up our new and first versatile pup(WPG) Memorial Day weekend. I’m wondering if anyone has had any good experiences with vets in the metamora geared more toward hunting dogs. Let me know, thanks!
> ...


Thanks! One of the vets was on my list to call and talk with.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

shaffe48b said:


> No my guess is he wasn't breaking 'fda regulations' or 'skirting regulations, laws, or procedures.'.
> 
> My guess is also that he didn't get his information from people called 9mm Hi-Power on internet hunting forums.


You're right. 9mm is wrong. From what I see, the FDA regulation only limits the heartworm med to use by or on the order of a licensed veterinarian. 9mm is inferring the lack of a heartworm test as a violation of the FDA regulation. The FDA regulation doesn't require a heartworm test to administer the med -- only that the med be used by or on the order of a licensed vet. If the licensed vet believes me when I tell him or her my dogs are on heartworm meds year round, let's me know the risks of not testing for heartworm yearly, and accepts my waiver of the test, then dispenses the med to me, there is no FDA violation. 9mm is imparting his impression of a reasonable vet on the rest of us. If you just let folks decide what is best for themselves and their pets and you go on doing what you believe is best for you and your pets without creating the false narrative that those who don't follow your beliefs are acting illegally, all would be good. Either that, or just buy every dog available, bring them into your home, and be content that your way is the best way for them.


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

kek25 said:


> You're right.


75% of the time I'm right all the time.

BTW I'm pretty certain that a doctor can prescribe a medicine completely outside of its intended purpose if he feels the situation warrants it. Not that it would probably fly if he did that all of the time. But it goes to show that prescriptions aren't as cut and dry as we might think.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

9mm Hi-Power said:


> Then he's an unethical canine health care provider. If he gives Heartgard (note spelling) to a dog owner who subsequently gives it to a dog already infected with adult heart worms as opposed to larvae stage heart worm the preventative will then most likely kill the dog. Heartgard is meant to kill the larvae stage of the worm . That is the purpose of the blood test - is the dog infected with adult heart worm ? Heartgard is a preventative medication. A dog already infected with adult heart worms calls for an entirely different and extended protocol of treatment. Why is this so seemingly difficult for you and others here to understand ?
> 
> 9mm Hi-Power


You're impression is the vet's an unethical provider. That's not my impression. You're imparting what you consider best for your pet with what we consider best for our pets. There's no unlawful activity or violation of FDA regulations here. You're unwilling to take the risk of not having an annual test performed. I keep my dogs on heartworm med year round, so I'm willing to assume the risk of not doing an annual test. It's ok if you disagree with my position, but stop accusing me, folks like me and our vets from being unlawful or unethical. For clarification, if my dogs had been off heartworm meds for an extended period of time, I would have them tested before resuming the meds. And I would go to a vet that would honor my request to only do the heartworm test, not an exam, and no additional services unless I request those services.

Nowhere does it say that the only time a licensed vet can dispense heartworm meds is after a negative test.


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## Nostromo (Feb 14, 2012)

kek25 said:


> You're right. 9mm is wrong. From what I see, the FDA regulation only limits the heartworm med to use by or on the order of a licensed veterinarian. 9mm is inferring the lack of a heartworm test as a violation of the FDA regulation. The FDA regulation doesn't require a heartworm test to administer the med -- only that the med be used by or on the order of a licensed vet. If the licensed vet believes me when I tell him or her my dogs are on heartworm meds year round, let's me know the risks of not testing for heartworm yearly, and accepts my waiver of the test, then dispenses the med to me, there is no FDA violation. 9mm is imparting his impression of a reasonable vet on the rest of us. If you just let folks decide what is best for themselves and their pets and you go on doing what you believe is best for you and your pets without creating the false narrative that those who don't follow your beliefs are acting illegally, all would be good. Either that, or just buy every dog available, bring them into your home, and be content that your way is the best way for them.


Well, I guess this is going to continue. I posted the guidelines and still you go on like you do not understand them. I guess this could be generational. In which case, certainly my generation is to blame for your peculiar way of seeing things. 

For that I apologize.


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## 9mm Hi-Power (Jan 16, 2010)

kek25 said:


> And I would go to a vet that would honor my request to only do the heartworm test, not an exam, and no additional services unless I request those services.


That's reasonable request but whether or not you can make it happen is a policy decision made by the vet and not an ethical one. I can make an appointment at my vet for a relatively routine procedure for my dog - express anal glands_ e.g.- _and it gets done at a reasonable cost( $20.00 - $25.00 ) without an examination fee. Having said that my dog is taken into the "back room" by a V.A. and brought back out 5 - 10 minutes later - not looking happy . I doubt that a vet ever looked at the dog . Which is O.K. with me for this sort of procedures.



kek25 said:


> You're impression is the vet's an unethical provider.


Again - I think it's unethical for a vet to dole out FDA regulated heart worm preventative pharmaceuticals upon request without a blood test because if the dog is infected with adult heart worms it can result in serious consequences for the dog. The blood test is by far the most proven way of determining the presence or absence of adult heart worm and thus provides the vet with verifiable and vital information as to the proper procedures to take. A far more positive and verifiable source of information as opposed to just accepting the owner's statements at face value - "I can guarantee...this dog is not infected with adult heart worms because..I've been....every month...Tractor Supply....etc. etc." . Being realistic why should the vet unquestionably accept the owner's statements as being beyond question ."????? It strikes me that such complying vets are more interested in avoiding arguments with dog owners than they are in the health and well being of the dog and to my way of thinking that's unethical.

Here's a scenario :

You take your dog to a vet or your vet and say "Doc, I need a year's supply of Heartgard." She replies, "We should do a blood test." You respond, "Not necessary Doc, I can assure you I've self-medicated this dog over the past year with ... heart worm...preventative ...etc. etc. " She responds, "O.K. , but we need to weigh the dog to assure the right dosage." The dog is weighed and the vet hands you a package of the proper Heartgard dosage. Your phone goes off and you hand the package back to the vet saying, "I've got an important business call, I have to take it right now and I'm in a real rush. I'd appreciate it if you'll give Dixie this month's Heartgard chew-tab."

Do you honestly think that a vet would personally administer a heart worm preventative medication without a prior blood test assuring, as best as possible to her knowledge and ethical professionalism , that the dog is not infected with adult heart worms ? Given that why would you trust a vet that in effect is saying: "This medication is O.K. for me to give to you to give to your dog but as far as me personally giving it to your dog ... sorry pal you're on your own with this one."



9mm Hi-Power


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## shaffe48b (Oct 22, 2019)

Nostromo said:


> I posted the guidelines and still you go on like you do not understand them. I guess this could be generational.


Nostromo I want to make sure I actually understand what you are saying. You are saying that old men are the best at following guidelines?


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