# Michigan Cougars



## fowlme

Michigan DNR posted a video on YouTube showing a big male on a kill pile. They said they have confirmed 30 UP sightings.


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## doggk9

Surprised? Somebody poached one last year.


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## Robert Holmes

We have had a few sightings in Mackinac County over the last year. Just another protected deer eating machine. Like we need a few hundred of them running around up here.


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## bowassasin

Have seen then in and around Tawas/Oscoda area. My ex had multiple trail cam pics. She called the DNR and they took copies of the pics.


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## fowlme

doggk9 said:


> Surprised? Somebody poached one last year.


Only surprised they admitted that they are in the state. Around my area they say we don't have them in Michigan. Did not hear about one getting poached.


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## Copper15

This video was from one of my old coworkers family's hunting camp. He told me one of his cousins had one stare at the cousin from 10 yds away there.:SHOCKED:


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## doggk9

It made the news and showed up in the dnr field reports.


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## multibeard

I have pictures of tracks from out side Pentwater.


The DNR had no interest in looking in person. Adam Bump tried his damdest to make toe nails out of dewdrops. An old gent from Rapid River looked at the pictures. He agreed with me as he sees tracks quite often around Rapid. but as L&O says I am gullible because I believed the man.

It just so happened that we had mutual friends from Gladstone. Maybe that is what made L&O think I am gullible.


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## MEL

multibeard said:


> I have pictures of tracks from out side Pentwater.
> 
> 
> The DNR had no interest in looking in person. Adam Bump tried his damdest to make toe nails out of dewdrops. An old gent from Rapid River looked at the pictures. He agreed with me as he sees tracks quite often around Rapid. but as L&O says I am gullible because I believed the man.
> 
> It just so happened that we had mutual friends from Gladstone. Maybe that is what made L&O think I am gullible.


Any chance of you emailing me the pictures?


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## multibeard

MEL said:


> Any chance of you emailing me the pictures?


There is one in my photos. Click on photos top right of this post. I thought that were two but the better one has disappeared. The photos are stored on another computer that I need to pull a ton of pic off of.

The actual printed photos are way clearer than what the ones off the puter are. If you membered the DNR gal that was doing the hog reports a while back, I sent them to her via email and then showed her my prints. She said what a difference and said I can not say yes but !!!!

I just wish I had the pics with me when I met Russ mason as he has REAL life experience with big cats coming from out west.


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## randall729

multibeard said:


> I have pictures of tracks from out side Pentwater.
> 
> 
> The DNR had no interest in looking in person. Adam Bump tried his damdest to make toe nails out of dewdrops. An old gent from Rapid River looked at the pictures. He agreed with me as he sees tracks quite often around Rapid. but as L&O says I am gullible because I believed the man.
> 
> It just so happened that we had mutual friends from Gladstone. Maybe that is what made L&O think I am gullible.


I am from Pentwater. I live in Pickford. May I ask where the tracks were seen? Beard Farm is at Mason Oceana Counties line. Washington Road. Anywhere near? By the way I have had 3 cougars I seen in Chippewa County. The DNR would not acknowledge that I saw them and showed no interest in me reporting to them.


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## Liver and Onions

multibeard said:


> I have pictures of tracks from out side Pentwater.
> 
> 
> The DNR had no interest in looking in person. Adam Bump tried his damdest to make toe nails out of dewdrops. An old gent from Rapid River looked at the pictures. He agreed with me as he sees tracks quite often around Rapid. but as L&O says I am gullible because I believed the man.
> 
> It just so happened that we had mutual friends from Gladstone. Maybe that is what made L&O think I am gullible.


Nothing hurts like the truth does it ? The truth is the DNR specialist, Adam Bump did look at your photos and determined that they were not from a cougar. Why is it so hard to admit that you were mistaken ?
For many years the DNR has followed up on every legitimate inquiry. So far, no proof of cougars in the LP despite the hundreds of thousands of trail cameras that are taking photos 24/7.

L & O


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## midmimike

I saw a squatch while catfishing in Ionia.


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## multibeard

Liver and Onions said:


> Nothing hurts like the truth does it ? The truth is the DNR specialist, Adam Bump did look at your photos and determined that they were not from a cougar. Why is it so hard to admit that you were mistaken ?
> For many years the DNR has followed up on every legitimate inquiry. So far, no proof of cougars in the LP despite the hundreds of thousands of trail cameras that are taking photos 24/7.
> 
> L & O


Call me a liar stupid, gullible or what ever L&O

Did you or he see the tracks in person? NO! 

I saw them, my son saw them plus a female member of this site and her boy friend that told me about them.

YUPP and Adam Bump knows it all just like some on this site. When he can not tell the difference between a toe nail mark and a dew drop I do not put much faith in what he says. 

I wonder how many cougar prints he has ever seen in person. Just like a lot of the DNR's specialist that is just a title. Like the turkey specialist that out right lied to me. And the former fur specialist that would not admit they were wanting to outlaw the sale of animal glands. I got that info from a CO. He had to sue the DNR for violating his civil rights to get all the CO's their right to trap back.

Randal check your PM's.


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## Liver and Onions

multibeard said:


> .......
> YUPP and Adam Bump knows it all just like some on this site. When he can not tell the difference between a toe nail mark and a dew drop I do not put much faith in what he says.
> 
> ........


Adam Bump. Yeah what can he possibly know about cougars that you don't know. :lol::lol:

http://shilohtv.com/?p=9732

You claim to have seen so many in the LP, why not a single photo from you or anyone from all of trail cameras that are out there ?

So far 28 confirmed sightings in the UP, zero in the LP. Damn DNR and their cover-up. lol

L & O


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## Blueboy05

There is one in Wellston Michigan....sat and looked at father in law while on the tractor fixing the trail. Said it's tail was as long as his body.


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## Liver and Onions

Blueboy05 said:


> There is one in Wellston Michigan....sat and looked at father in law while on the tractor fixing the trail. Said it's tail was as long as his body.


Great. Have him take a picture and then he can be the 1st person in over 120 years to be confirmed for seeing one in the LP.

L & O


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## topgun47

Liver and Onions said:


> Adam Bump. Yeah what can he possibly know about cougars that you don't know. :lol::lol:
> 
> http://shilohtv.com/?p=9732
> 
> You claim to have seen so many in the LP, why not a single photo from you or anyone from all of trail cameras that are out there ?
> 
> So far 28 confirmed sightings in the UP, zero in the LP. Damn DNR and their cover-up. lol
> 
> L & O


I think you give the DNR quite a bit more credit than they deserve. Before they "confirmed" the 28 sightings in the UP, there were literally tens of thousands of sightings that they claimed were bunk. They claimed that cougars "definitely DID NOT exist anywhere in Michigan". They claimed people were seeing things, or had a good imagination. The current party line is "there are NO COUGAR IN THE LP".

I've reported footprints in the dirt road in front of my property in Clare and the DNR never even showed up to look. So much for "confirming" something when you aren't even interested enough to take a look. I suppose an 80-85 pound house cat could have made the prints, but I keep an open eye for something sitting on a branch above the trails when I walk through the woods, just in case.


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## multibeard

Liver and Onions said:


> Adam Bump. Yeah what can he possibly know about cougars that you don't know. :lol::lol:
> 
> http://shilohtv.com/?p=9732
> 
> You claim to have seen so many in the LP, why not a single photo from you or anyone from all of trail cameras that are out there ?
> 
> So far 28 confirmed sightings in the UP, zero in the LP. Damn DNR and their cover-up. lol
> 
> L & O


You need to go back to school and take reading comprehension!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where in the H did I ever claim to have seen any other evidence of cougar other than the tracks of cougar out side of Pentwater. 

BTW The local CO would have been with us that day but being his day off he was baby sitting his kids. When he went there the next morning the gate blocking the road was opened by a survey crew. They had destroyed the tracks.

The CO had called the biologist the day before about the tracks but got the same not interested answer.

As I have stated before about Bump, Book leaning is great, Experience out ways it. If you can not tell the difference between dew drops off of a tree and toe nails on a track you might as well use the book for toilet paper.

Who is going to do the confirming if the DNR will not get out of the office and put there feet on the ground and go look. I had a CO tell me one time you could not tell the difference between a coyote track and a dog track. I told him the first thing he needed to do was put his left hand on the door handle of his car an open the door, put his feet on the ground and educate him self.


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## tsb3

5 or 6 years ago a horse was killed near Rives Junction and partially eaten. The neighbor was a Jackson County deputy. He seen the horse and said the hind quarters were sliced up by claws. The DNR said the the horse simply died and coyotes feed on it!


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## Blueboy05

Actually, no he wouldn't. If you'd like to see pictures of one, go to the party store on Milford road in Milford Michigan, (yes, I-96) and you can see dozens of pictures. That cat was seen down here by hundreds of people and there are hundreds of pictures of it.


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## Liver and Onions

Blueboy05 said:


> Actually, no he wouldn't. If you'd like to see pictures of one, go to the party store on Milford road in Milford Michigan, (yes, I-96) and you can see dozens of pictures. That cat was seen down here by hundreds of people and there are hundreds of pictures of it.


Has a cougar been confirmed in the last week or so ? If not, there have not been any confirmed cougars in the LP. Seen by hundreds of people and hundreds of photos and yet the DNR was unable to confirm its presence ? Doesn't that seem unlikely to you ?
Here is one story from 2012. It mentions 2 people, but no photo.

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/gene...rt-cougar-sightings-near-kensington-metropark

Story from Milford, Conn. :

http://abcnews.go.com/US/conn-mountain-lion-made-long-journey-south-dakota/story?id=14169829

L & O


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## MEL

Blueboy05 said:


> Actually, no he wouldn't. If you'd like to see pictures of one, go to the party store on Milford road in Milford Michigan, (yes, I-96) and you can see dozens of pictures. That cat was seen down here by hundreds of people and there are hundreds of pictures of it.


Can you please give a better location of this store?


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## DFJISH

It never ceases to amaze me that guys with no credentials other than an opinion and a keyboard are the harshest critics of those who have the education and experience to evaluate. I sometimes wonder if the reason for that circumstance is that those self-appointed experts had a bad experience in their childhood or in school such that they have an axe to grind against any authority. Pretty sad situation. :sad:


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## bowdrie

There have been multiple claims of cougar sightings around my neck of the woods. Specifically, the area encompassing the Sleeping Bear National Park has received reports of cougar sightings by hikers and park rangers. To this day I have yet to see a verified picture of one traversing this area. Not to say I don't believe there may be a rouge Tom living in the vast stretches of our northern woods. But with all the reported sightings you would think a roadkill or trailcam pic would finally put some closure on the claims.


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## P&Ychaser

topgun47 said:


> I think you give the DNR quite a bit more credit than they deserve. Before they "confirmed" the 28 sightings in the UP, there were literally tens of thousands of sightings that they claimed were bunk. They claimed that cougars "definitely DID NOT exist anywhere in Michigan". They claimed people were seeing things, or had a good imagination. The current party line is "there are NO COUGAR IN THE LP".
> 
> I've reported footprints in the dirt road in front of my property in Clare and the DNR never even showed up to look. So much for "confirming" something when you aren't even interested enough to take a look. I suppose an 80-85 pound house cat could have made the prints, but I keep an open eye for something sitting on a branch above the trails when I walk through the woods, just in case.





bowdrie said:


> There have been multiple claims of cougar sightings around my neck of the woods. Specifically, the area encompassing the Sleeping Bear National Park has received reports of cougar sightings by hikers and park rangers. To this day I have yet to see a verified picture of one traversing this area. Not to say I don't believe there may be a rouge Tom living in the vast stretches of our northern woods. But with all the reported sightings you would think a roadkill or trailcam pic would finally put some closure on the claims.


They are cats. I use to have a house cat that you'd only see once a month in a 1,000 Sq foot house ! 

What's the bobcat population in MI? How many of those do you see on camera? Roadikills? Tracks? 

Agree with above posters as well about now there are 28 confirmed by MDNR after yrs and yrs of saying no, NONE in the UP...until WE started the research. Convenient  maybe when they get around to it, they will start their research in the LP. Seems all too familiar 
They disregarded the public for years when they find evidence that they have to leave their office to check, or can sweep under the rug. Then have 28 confirmed ones when the public hands them THEIR confirmed sighting on a silver platter and bowtied for them. Only evidence they use is stuff that can't be destroyed because it's already reached the Web


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## fowlme

When I posted about the video I did not mean for this to become a pissing match. Since the hours I work I do not allow me time to watch the news or read field reports, I was just passing on the info for others that may be in the same situation.


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## BVW

DNA claiming 28 confirmations doesn't necessarily mean 28 cats. Could be as few as 3-5 male cats roaming from the Dakota's. They roam until they find territory with a female.. Since there arent any female cats around they keep moving. One confirmed pic in the UP the cat had a tracking collar. The Dakotas are the closest place that was doing this. Keep in mind the Dakotas have under 200 cats and about 15-20 are found dead Every year from cars and people shooting them. These cats are kinda dumb and instinctively driven.. Often times they do dumb stuff and die. If we had as many cats as some people claim they would she showing up a lot.
I am sure someday (or possibly already) a transient cat makes its way to the LP.. But the current evidence for this is sketchy and unconfirmable at this point. One roaming cat somehow made it to Connecticut, so anything is possible.


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## o_mykiss

You'd also think with the high number of trail cams running in the LP that someone would have a verifiable picture or video


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## wyandot

o_mykiss said:


> You'd also think with the high number of trail cams running in the LP that someone would have a verifiable picture or video


There are pics around here, just haven't been shown to every jack-ass with a facebook page.


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## P&Ychaser

o_mykiss said:


> You'd also think with the high number of trail cams running in the LP that someone would have a verifiable picture or video


When the DNR finally gets one that THEY accept from the LP after years of calling people liars, are they going to post it all over the internet with their GIANT MDNR symbol taking up half the screen like it's their great discovery? 

That's my favorite part of the video ! :lol:


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## topgun47

DFJISH said:


> It never ceases to amaze me that guys with no credentials other than an opinion and a keyboard are the harshest critics of those who have the education and experience to evaluate. I sometimes wonder if the reason for that circumstance is that those self-appointed experts had a bad experience in their childhood or in school such that they have an axe to grind against any authority. Pretty sad situation. :sad:


And I'll tell you what amazes me, are guys with no credentials other than an opinion and a keyboard who are the harshest critics of those who post here. I sometimes wonder if the reason for that circumstance is that those self-appointed experts had a bad experience in their childhood or in school such that they have an axe to grind against any authority. Pretty sad situation. What do you think?:sad:


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## o_mykiss

P&Ychaser said:


> When the DNR finally gets one that THEY accept from the LP after years of calling people liars, are they going to post it all over the internet with their GIANT MDNR symbol taking up half the screen like it's their great discovery?
> 
> That's my favorite part of the video ! :lol:


I would guess that in no small part that occurred because of the rampant occurrence of "my brother's sister's uncle took this picture of a cougar" on the internet - you know the ones, that are attributed to 8 different states on various message boards

and probably also because a lot of people accuse the DNR of covering up cougars, what better way to dispute that than by putting a giant DNR logo on the video


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## Boardman Brookies

topgun47 said:


> And I'll tell you what amazes me, are guys with no credentials other than an opinion and a keyboard who are the harshest critics of those who post here. I sometimes wonder if the reason for that circumstance is that those self-appointed experts had a bad experience in their childhood or in school such that they have an axe to grind against any authority. Pretty sad situation. What do you think?:sad:



This x1000000000000


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## DFJISH

It sure sounds that way doesn't it? The guys with no credentials lash out against other guys with no credentials. They eat their own in an attempt to validate their own mistakes. Oh well. In the overall scheme of things, the opinions of guys with no credentials are just as insignificant as the opinions of the other guys with no credentials.


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## randall729

P&Ychaser said:


> They are cats. I use to have a house cat that you'd only see once a month in a 1,000 Sq foot house !
> 
> What's the bobcat population in MI? How many of those do you see on camera? Roadikills? Tracks?
> 
> Agree with above posters as well about now there are 28 confirmed by MDNR after yrs and yrs of saying no, NONE in the UP...until WE started the research. Convenient  maybe when they get around to it, they will start their research in the LP. Seems all too familiar
> They disregarded the public for years when they find evidence that they have to leave their office to check, or can sweep under the rug. Then have 28 confirmed ones when the public hands them THEIR confirmed sighting on a silver platter and bowtied for them. Only evidence they use is stuff that can't be destroyed because it's already reached the Web


Everyone doesn't have a trail cam. I been hunting and fishing all my life, I just bought one. Everyone doesn't carry a camera with them. A trail cam only takes a picture measured in square feet not vast areas. That is one reason a cougar isn't always in a trail cam picture.It is more likely to come across tracks of one.


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## Copper15

randall729 said:


> Everyone doesn't have a trail cam. I been hunting and fishing all my life, I just bought one. Everyone doesn't carry a camera with them. A trail cam only takes a picture measured in square feet not vast areas. That is one reason a cougar isn't always in a trail cam picture.It is more likely to come across tracks of one.


There where several pictures of the 2 wolverines that crossed the state. A wolverine is a lot smaller than cougars.


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## topgun47

Copper15 said:


> There where several pictures of the 2 wolverines that crossed the state. A wolverine is a lot smaller than cougars.


Just a minute there, the DNR told us wolverines were wiped out of Michigan in the 1800's remember? No wolverines here folks, impossible, move on people. Then they found that one wandering around the thumb a few years ago.

OOps!


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## BVW

topgun47 said:


> Just a minute there, the DNR told us wolverines were wiped out of Michigan in the 1800's remember? No wolverines here folks, impossible, move on people. Then they found that one wandering around the thumb a few years ago.
> 
> OOps!


 There is a difference between having a sustainable population of a certain animal and having a random individual find its way to a place outside of its normal range. I don't think anyone believes we have a stable population n of Wolverines. Wolverines, wolves and cougars are known to wonder long distances so sometimes they find themselves in areas that they are not established. Established meaning resident breeding populations. These are almost always young males. There are lots of wild animals that get found in Michigan that are not established. They get here either through long distance wondering or by human intervention. For example more live alligators have been found in Michigan than cougars... Would you say we "have" alligators in Michigan? I don't think the DNR has to publicly announce we have alligators in Michigan. Guys caught a few piranha in Muskegon lake a few years ago , should piranha be in the fishing guide? Its possible to eventually have an sustainable population of cougars some due to it being federally protected . Question is if they can survive with all then people around this far east. Florida has over a hundred cats and they are struggling to maintain them. They get run over ny cars and are having trouble with genetic diversity so they cats numbers are fading a bit.. But some how they can study these cats without snow And find them in the Everglades? Go's to show these cats are not that illusive.


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## Thirty pointer

Just what we need more apex predators close to human populations .We should just start planting grizzly bears everywhere in Mi. and be done with it .


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## topgun47

BVW said:


> There is a difference between having a sustainable population of a certain animal and having a random individual find its way to a place outside of its normal range. I don't think anyone believes we have a stable population n of Wolverines. Wolverines, wolves and cougars are known to wonder long distances so sometimes they find themselves in areas that they are not established. Established meaning resident breeding populations. These are almost always young males. There are lots of wild animals that get found in Michigan that are not established. They get here either through long distance wondering or by human intervention. For example more live alligators have been found in Michigan than cougars... Would you say we "have" alligators in Michigan? I don't think the DNR has to publicly announce we have alligators in Michigan. Guys caught a few piranha in Muskegon lake a few years ago , should piranha be in the fishing guide? Its possible to eventually have an sustainable population of cougars some due to it being federally protected . Question is if they can survive with all then people around this far east. Florida has over a hundred cats and they are struggling to maintain them. They get run over ny cars and are having trouble with genetic diversity so they cats numbers are fading a bit.. But some how they can study these cats without snow And find them in the Everglades? Go's to show these cats are not that illusive.


I agree with you almost 100%.

The problem is the DNR never said "sustainable population" or "resident breeding population", nor did anybody else. What the DNR did say though, is that "There aren't any of these animals period, end of story, leave me alone, get out of here, you're seeing things, you're hallucinating, you're drunk, etc., etc., etc."

And that's where the problem lies. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate a lot of what the DNR tries to accomplish here in Michigan, but don't try to pass them off as being "experts" in anything. If they were truly "experts", they certainly wouldn't be working for near minimum wages for the DNR, they would have a "real" job.


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## BVW

topgun47 said:


> I agree with you almost 100%.
> 
> The problem is the DNR never said "sustainable population" or "resident breeding population", nor did anybody else. What the DNR did say though, is that "There aren't any of these animals period, end of story, leave me alone, get out of here, you're seeing things, you're hallucinating, you're drunk, etc., etc., etc."
> 
> And that's where the problem lies. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate a lot of what the DNR tries to accomplish here in Michigan, but don't try to pass them off as being "experts" in anything. If they were truly "experts", they certainly wouldn't be working for near minimum wages for the DNR, they would have a "real" job.


 Yeah i understand what you mean. Its tough for an agency to make claims of having an animal without ever having tangible evidence. I don't think we want our wildlife agencies making statements of having or not having animals based on general public sightings. Dead animals and DNA should be there first, then figure out where and why its there. Like I said we have a lot of animals here that shown up one way or another.
. I think the dnr like many people became a bit jaded with all the chain emails with cougars on porches and stalking mule deer photos claiming to be from Michigan. So they may have not responded to every call of a track or a sighting or make an announcement that we are being invaded by cougars. The mwc didnt help either with all their phoney " evidence" and videos of house cats. Its very easy these days to create a fake photo or video of anything you want. I have learned that people in general don't know much about wildlife and identification. I know a guy who has been an avid hunter for over 35 years and thought bobcats were solid black. He also told me he was chased by a purple snake lol.. So just because someone hunts doesn't mean they are very good at identifying an animal. 
What I don't understand is why with all the hundreds of sightings in the lp they never happen with snow on the ground? Should be easy to at very least find where they walked until a hair or crap is found. I am sure one day a cat will cross the ice from the up and get run over and everyone will be able to say we have a thriving cougar population


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## topgun47

BVW said:


> Yeah i understand what you mean.. I think the dnr like many people became a bit jaded with all the chain emails with cougars on porches and stalking mule deer photos claiming to be from Michigan. So they may have not responded to every call of a track or a sighting or make an announcement that we are being invaded by cougars. The mwc didnt help either with all their phoney " evidence" and videos of house cats. Its very easy these days to create a fake photo or video of anything you want. I have learned that people in general don't know much about wildlife and identification. I know a guy who has been an avid hunter for over 35 years and thought bobcats were solid black. He also told me he was chased by a purple snake lol.. So just because someone hunts doesn't mean they are very good at identifying an animal.
> What I don't understand is why with all the hundreds of sightings in the lp they never happen with snow on the ground? Should be easy to at very least find where they walked until a hair or crap is found. I am sure one day a cat will cross the ice from the up and get run over and everyone will be able to say their sighting was real and the DNR and doubters were wrong.


In the past I have called the DNR Rap line a couple of times to report deer poachers that were actively (as in right now) shooting deer with 22's at night. One time there was a dead carcass was laying on the side of the road killed with a small bore neck shot and a couple of guys with guns just off the road. Neither time did the DNR respond. They take my number and say they'll let me know if they find out anything. I never heard back. I don't waste my time anymore. If they don't care why should I? It seems like they'd rather chase ATV's, snowmobilers and fisherman.............That's where the REAL money is, and it's safer.


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## P&Ychaser

BVW said:


> There is a difference between having a sustainable population of a certain animal and having a random individual find its way to a place outside of its normal range. I don't think anyone believes we have a stable population n of Wolverines. Wolverines, wolves and cougars are known to wonder long distances so sometimes they find themselves in areas that they are not established. Established meaning resident breeding populations. These are almost always young males. There are lots of wild animals that get found in Michigan that are not established. They get here either through long distance wondering or by human intervention. For example more live alligators have been found in Michigan than cougars... Would you say we "have" alligators in Michigan? I don't think the DNR has to publicly announce we have alligators in Michigan. Guys caught a few piranha in Muskegon lake a few years ago , should piranha be in the fishing guide? Its possible to eventually have an sustainable population of cougars some due to it being federally protected . Question is if they can survive with all then people around this far east. Florida has over a hundred cats and they are struggling to maintain them. They get run over ny cars and are having trouble with genetic diversity so they cats numbers are fading a bit.. But some how they can study these cats without snow And find them in the Everglades? Go's to show these cats are not that illusive.


Definitely agree with what you are saying. I think the issue with this animal in particular, was that when they were said to be wiped out, there has really NEVER been a lapse in sightings. Only "confirmed ones".

Getting more and more frequent now with people encroaching into some of these larger tracts of land that were rarely ventured and having the social media to relay what they saw. Trail cameras, phones with cameras, instant documentation, etc. 
The people that LIVE next to, and in these huge areas in the UP are the people to talk to. No, they aren't going to Facebook and blab to everyone in the state about what they see, they live in places like this for the solitude, they don't need the circus, or the ridicule. You talk to those people, and they talk as if they, and their neighbors have had them around consistently for decades and decades. Not all of a sudden, not cats that are wandering from 3 states over, or released pets (remember that one !), etc. 
Same goes with the sightings (supposed) in the LP, they seem to be associated with the largest tracts of untapped land. National forests, Huge swamps, etc. 
Oh the places they must have passed to get to the areas where they were "confirmed" in MI from the Dakotas. They must have an elaborate map system they carry to bounce from remote area to remote area for 3 full states, then back to the Dakotas, only to be confirmed in the same areas where most of the supposed sightings have been coming from for decades. Impressive


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## BVW

P&Ychaser said:


> Definitely agree with what you are saying. I think the issue with this animal in particular, was that when they were said to be wiped out, there has really NEVER been a lapse in sightings. Only "confirmed ones".
> 
> Getting more and more frequent now with people encroaching into some of these larger tracts of land that were rarely ventured and having the social media to relay what they saw. Trail cameras, phones with cameras, instant documentation, etc.
> The people that LIVE next to, and in these huge areas in the UP are the people to talk to. No, they aren't going to Facebook and blab to everyone in the state about what they see, they live in places like this for the solitude, they don't need the circus, or the ridicule. You talk to those people, and they talk as if they, and their neighbors have had them around consistently for decades and decades. Not all of a sudden, not cats that are wandering from 3 states over, or released pets (remember that one !), etc.
> Same goes with the sightings (supposed) in the LP, they seem to be associated with the largest tracts of untapped land. National forests, Huge swamps, etc.
> Oh the places they must have passed to get to the areas where they were "confirmed" in MI from the Dakotas. They must have an elaborate map system they carry to bounce from remote area to remote area for 3 full states, then back to the Dakotas, only to be confirmed in the same areas where most of the supposed sightings have been coming from for decades. Impressive


 Do you think they are living and breeding in Michigan and they have never been completely removed? Which sub species? The cougars that most likely lived in Michigan over 100 Years ago were the eastern sub species, not the western.. So if anyone could actually find a cat it could be tested. The eastern cougar has been declared extinct by the us fish and wildlife service. http://www.fws.gov/northeast/ecougar/newsreleasefinal.html

A cat was killed near Chicago a few Years ago, by DNA testing it was found to have came from the Dakota's. I don't think cougars could maintain a population hiding in secret places and breeding with family members (see Florida panther problems). Once again males do wonder and will be found outside of normal ranges.. So maybe cats found there way here for many years but just some how iilluded millions of hunters for over 100 years.


----------



## P&Ychaser

BVW said:


> Do you think they are living and breeding in Michigan and they have never been completely removed? Which sub species? The cougars that most likely lived in Michigan over 100 Years ago were the eastern sub species, not the western.. So if anyone could actually find a cat it could be tested. The eastern cougar has been declared extinct by the us fish and wildlife service. http://www.fws.gov/northeast/ecougar/newsreleasefinal.html
> 
> A cat was killed near Chicago a few Years ago, by DNA testing it was found to have came from the Dakota's. I don't think cougars could maintain a population hiding in secret places and breeding with family members (see Florida panther problems). Once again males do wonder and will be found outside of normal ranges.. So maybe cats found there way here for many years but just some how iilluded millions of hunters for over 100 years.


I don't doubt that the species was knocked down considerably, and their probably is some breeding between the Western and the eastern cats, making the Eastern bloodline almost unidentifiable by DNA. Possibly inbreeding keeping population really low as well. Them getting wacked by locals that see them more consistently, etc. You talk to the people that live by these places, I assure you they see them and have for decades, and have a gun right by each of their back doors. Doubt if you see their harvest pictures on FB :lol:

Just seems really far fetched that people now adays hunt them almost by dog hunting alone in areas that they do have a higher huntable number of cats. Those people have high powered rifles, high powered scopes in relatively open spaces and unlimited gadgets to harvest these cats. Yet say they are darn near IMPOSSIBLE to hunt without dogs. 
Yet back in 1906 with no roads, ATV's, trained dogs, no scent control, HUGE untapped THICK cedar swamps, a handful of guys with muskets, and iron sites wiped out an entire state worth of a sub species in a few years:SHOCKED:When they killed EVERY single one, in the entire state, they sent advertisements to other states saying we are predator free ! Come to MI and live ! In their fliars they killed every predator, not limited to Cougars all at once. I would love to know how they managed that ? Wish I could attend one of their classes !!

Confirmed sightings just seem to be improving as Technology does. I don't think it just so happens that as people get more cell phones with cameras in their pockets at all times, Trail cameras in "extinct" states the male cats in the Dakotas finally decided to travel hundreds and hundreds of mile looking for some new tail. 

You ever been in the UP in those huge swamps? You think you and 10 (or even 1,000) of your buddies could kill ALL of 1 species (in this case all predators) on foot with single shot, musket balled, iron sighted guns, and get it all done with your packs on your backs in every square acre of those areas with the logging roads they had back in 1906? Seems far fetched to me. Maybe missed at least a couple??


----------



## dasuper

Next time you see one just shoot it and leave it beside the road then someone will have to claim it is real. I know it is not legal but they are not here so just call it a big house cat


----------



## Thirty pointer

topgun47 said:


> In the past I have called the DNR Rap line a couple of times to report deer poachers that were actively (as in right now) shooting deer with 22's at night. One time there was a dead carcass was laying on the side of the road killed with a small bore neck shot and a couple of guys with guns just off the road. Neither time did the DNR respond. They take my number and say they'll let me know if they find out anything. I never heard back. I don't waste my time anymore. If they don't care why should I? It seems like they'd rather chase ATV's, snowmobilers and fisherman.............That's where the REAL money is, and it's safer.


If its the weekend don't bother no one will be available I have called three times over the years .


----------



## BVW

P&Ychaser said:


> I don't doubt that the species was knocked down considerably, and their probably is some breeding between the Western and the eastern cats, making the Eastern bloodline almost unidentifiable by DNA. Possibly inbreeding keeping population really low as well. Them getting wacked by locals that see them more consistently, etc. You talk to the people that live by these places, I assure you they see them and have for decades, and have a gun right by each of their back doors. Doubt if you see their harvest pictures on FB :lol:
> 
> Just seems really far fetched that people now adays hunt them almost by dog hunting alone in areas that they do have a higher huntable number of cats. Those people have high powered rifles, high powered scopes in relatively open spaces and unlimited gadgets to harvest these cats. Yet say they are darn near IMPOSSIBLE to hunt without dogs.
> Yet back in 1906 with no roads, ATV's, trained dogs, no scent control, HUGE untapped THICK cedar swamps, a handful of guys with muskets, and iron sites wiped out an entire state worth of a sub species in a few years:SHOCKED:When they killed EVERY single one, in the entire state, they sent advertisements to other states saying we are predator free ! Come to MI and live ! In their fliars they killed every predator, not limited to Cougars all at once. I would love to know how they managed that ? Wish I could attend one of their classes !!
> 
> Confirmed sightings just seem to be improving as Technology does. I don't think it just so happens that as people get more cell phones with cameras in their pockets at all times, Trail cameras in "extinct" states the male cats in the Dakotas finally decided to travel hundreds and hundreds of mile looking for some new tail.
> 
> You ever been in the UP in those huge swamps? You think you and 10 (or even 1,000) of your buddies could kill ALL of 1 species (in this case all predators) on foot with single shot, musket balled, iron sighted guns, and get it all done with your packs on your backs in every square acre of those areas with the logging roads they had back in 1906? Seems far fetched to me. Maybe missed at least a couple??


 The old bigfoot survival hypothesis.. Just kidding  i think you make some good points.Its been legal to kill them until 1973 when the endangered species act came about i believe, i would think some proof of at least one in all that time would be documented. Yes I believe they were exterminated from the up and great lakes region due to changes in their habitat, and by humans. Not from killing them all but enough of them to wreck their reproductive chances. . I don't believe they have a secret network of hiding places where they live and die. I don't think there are local swamp people killing them often and nobody finding out  Florida has 150 cats or so and that isn't enough to maintain genetic diversity.. Explain how they study them in the Everglades? From what I hear that's a pretty big swamp  and they don't even have snow . keep on mind this is a 150 pound cat, not a hummingbird.
However I will say that eventually they could possibly establish themselves in the UP , but they are yet to establish themselves in Minnesota or Wisconsin. However due to federal protection they have been moving east again. Thing is females don't travel far generally , so it takes a while for them to expand their ranges. The eastern DNA won't go anywhere if they are interbreeding.. But keep in mind that almost the entire east had them at one time.. Do you think other eastern states have hidden cougar populations also? And the fish and wildlife service is wrong? Or the only hiding cougars exist michigan? 
Either way cats are finding their way here , so doesn't really matter if they are born here or not. I just think its near impossible to have remnant breeding cats here. Hopefully they eventually find a dead one that can be tested. Too bad the wolves are going to eat all the deer and the cougars will starve to death


----------



## P&Ychaser

BVW said:


> The old bigfoot survival hypothesis.. Just kidding  i think you make some good points.Its been legal to kill them until 1973 when the endangered species act came about i believe, i would think some proof of at least one in all that time would be documented. Yes I believe they were exterminated from the up and great lakes region due to changes in their habitat, and by humans. Not from killing them all but enough of them to wreck their reproductive chances. . I don't believe they have a secret network of hiding places where they live and die. I don't think there are local swamp people killing them often and nobody finding out  Florida has 150 cats or so and that isn't enough to maintain genetic diversity.. Explain how they study them in the Everglades? From what I hear that's a pretty big swamp  and they don't even have snow . keep on mind this is a 150 pound cat, not a hummingbird.
> However I will say that eventually they could possibly establish themselves in the UP , but they are yet to establish themselves in Minnesota or Wisconsin. However due to federal protection they have been moving east again. Thing is females don't travel far generally , so it takes a while for them to expand their ranges. The eastern DNA won't go anywhere if they are interbreeding.. But keep in mind that almost the entire east had them at one time.. Do you think other eastern states have hidden cougar populations also? And the fish and wildlife service is wrong? Or the only hiding cougars exist michigan?
> Either way cats are finding their way here , so doesn't really matter if they are born here or not. I just think its near impossible to have remnant breeding cats here. Hopefully they eventually find a dead one that can be tested. Too bad the wolves are going to eat all the deer and the cougars will starve to death


Good point. The wolves are VERY abundant in the UP, and much bigger than hummingbirds, and people hate them up there. So many they are eating all the deer and now the deer hunting sucks ! Open to hunting last year. And a whopping 23 got killed. Didn't even meet half the quota for the hunt. How many wolves are estimated in the UP? And we only got 23? But there are SO many that it's decimated the deer population. (Agree they aren't good and need a season, just using for point) 

Are there not as many as we thought? Or could it be that wild animals have a way of not being seen (especially felines)? Say if there were only 10-15 or so in all of the UP, would we have killed one during the season? Or would the sightings be more random chance than when there were thousands of hunters in the woods making racket? I bet people that live in the UP year round have a better chance at seeing one rather than when they are "hunted". Similar to wolves, even though there MAY be 60x more of them . (Yoopers see them)

Just using the wolf numbers/sightings as a point. I do believe there are too many wolves and they are hurting the deer population, but finding them is harder than it seems when you want to 
People who see the wolves, live there. Same with the cats I would think. And I bet the same would happen to a random encounter with a cat as a wolf, SSS 

It's not like MN, and WI don't have a similar situation as us with these cat "stories". They are in the same boat


----------



## kingfishcam

Thanks for the video info!
Last summer my wife and two cousins all watched a cougar cross the dirt road in front of their car on the west side of green lake. I dont need the dnr to confirm the story. I believe them.


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## wintrrun

There's only one reason I can think of the MiDnR would not want a resident cougar and that reason is it will cost them millions and millions of dollars the day they do.:lol:


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## MEL

wintrrun said:


> There's only one reason I can think of the MiDnR would not want a resident cougar and that reason is it will cost them millions and millions of dollars the day they do.:lol:


You do realize that it wont cost them anything right?


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## multibeard

MEL said:


> You do realize that it wont cost them anything right?


Ok so if and when they admit that they are here, Won't the have to have a program to cover them as they are an endangered species. 

Don't programs cost money???


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## swampbuck

Not them.....US.


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## Liver and Onions

topgun47 said:


> I think you give the DNR quite a bit more credit than they deserve. Before they "confirmed" the 28 sightings in the UP, there were literally tens of thousands of sightings that they claimed were bunk. They claimed that cougars "definitely DID NOT exist anywhere in Michigan". They claimed people were seeing things, or had a good imagination. The current party line is "there are NO COUGAR IN THE LP".
> 
> .........


"there were tens of thousands of sightings" 
Geez, and how much credibility do you have when you throw out a ridiculous number like that ?
What I have read a number of times over the past 15 years or so from the DNR is this......."There is no verifiable evidence of cougars in the LP."
No one has produced a photo, scat or track yet that can be verified. Very photo that has been posted that I have seen has been a bobcat, house cat or a cougar that was taken in another state. 
Somehow the cougars must know where all of the trail cameras are and have been able to avoid having their picture taken.

L & O


----------



## wyandot

Liver and Onions said:


> "there were tens of thousands of sightings"
> Geez, and how much credibility do you have when you throw out a ridiculous number like that ?
> What I have read a number of times over the past 15 years or so from the DNR is this......."There is no verifiable evidence of cougars in the LP."
> No one has produced a photo, scat or track yet that can be verified. Very photo that has been posted that I have seen has been a bobcat, house cat or a cougar that was taken in another state.
> Somehow the cougars must know where all of the trail cameras are and have been able to avoid having their picture taken.
> 
> Could you mistake this for a deer? A big family dog? Bobcat? If so, you're blind as a bat. Telling a person who's seen one that they're wrong is kind of insulting, don't you think?


----------



## randall729

P&Ychaser said:


> Definitely agree with what you are saying. I think the issue with this animal in particular, was that when they were said to be wiped out, there has really NEVER been a lapse in sightings. Only "confirmed ones".
> 
> Getting more and more frequent now with people encroaching into some of these larger tracts of land that were rarely ventured and having the social media to relay what they saw. Trail cameras, phones with cameras, instant documentation, etc.
> The people that LIVE next to, and in these huge areas in the UP are the people to talk to. No, they aren't going to Facebook and blab to everyone in the state about what they see, they live in places like this for the solitude, they don't need the circus, or the ridicule. You talk to those people, and they talk as if they, and their neighbors have had them around consistently for decades and decades. Not all of a sudden, not cats that are wandering from 3 states over, or released pets (remember that one !), etc.
> Same goes with the sightings (supposed) in the LP, they seem to be associated with the largest tracts of untapped land. National forests, Huge swamps, etc.
> Oh the places they must have passed to get to the areas where they were "confirmed" in MI from the Dakotas. They must have an elaborate map system they carry to bounce from remote area to remote area for 3 full states, then back to the Dakotas, only to be confirmed in the same areas where most of the supposed sightings have been coming from for decades. Impressive


Dear P&Y, The last cougar in the entire State of Michigan, was killed in 1908 Newberry, Michigan, Luce County. I find this hard to believe. I find it hard to believe wolverines never existed in Michigan. Let's look at Luce County for example. This is quite a large county and heavily wooded of over 80%. Much of this county is inaccessible and rarely ventured by man. My opinion, this county is the most ideal haven and liar for all creatures wanting to avoid human contact. In 1908, ( I wasn't around then) it had to be far more difficult to find a "last" one. Beyond 1908, actually who would a person report seeing a cougar and would anyone even care? How were the relations between the Upper and Lower Peninsulas? I think one would be amazed at the animals present but hidden in this county.


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## DFJISH

*L&O*..I applaud your efforts to use logic and facts to make your point. That said, I hope you realize the mindsets you are dealing with here. When guys tell you that they don't need a wildlife biologist's confirmation of evidence because THEY KNOW THEY'RE RIGHT, it's really time to cut the debate short. I suggest something like...*"Show us a cougar in the LP, dead or alive, or it doesn't exist here."*


----------



## randall729

P&Ychaser said:


> Good point. The wolves are VERY abundant in the UP, and much bigger than hummingbirds, and people hate them up there. So many they are eating all the deer and now the deer hunting sucks ! Open to hunting last year. And a whopping 23 got killed. Didn't even meet half the quota for the hunt. How many wolves are estimated in the UP? And we only got 23? But there are SO many that it's decimated the deer population. (Agree they aren't good and need a season, just using for point)
> 
> Are there not as many as we thought? Or could it be that wild animals have a way of not being seen (especially felines)? Say if there were only 10-15 or so in all of the UP, would we have killed one during the season? Or would the sightings be more random chance than when there were thousands of hunters in the woods making racket? I bet people that live in the UP year round have a better chance at seeing one rather than when they are "hunted". Similar to wolves, even though there MAY be 60x more of them . (Yoopers see them)
> 
> Just using the wolf numbers/sightings as a point. I do believe there are too many wolves and they are hurting the deer population, but finding them is harder than it seems when you want to
> People who see the wolves, live there. Same with the cats I would think. And I bet the same would happen to a random encounter with a cat as a wolf, SSS
> 
> It's not like MN, and WI don't have a similar situation as us with these cat "stories". They are in the same boat


A trail cam pic of one of the wolves at our deer hunting property was put in the woodsnwater feb, magazine. It was sniffing around where my son hunted. No venison for the freezer, We had 8 does and 6 bucks coming to this spot of the camera. 2 of the bucks were 8 pts. 2 were 6 pts. and 2 bucks were yearlings ( not spikes). All vanished. Try this year for one.


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## Liver and Onions

Luv2hunteup said:


> Just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean they are not in Michigan.
> 
> View attachment 75134




I don't know how many yellow labs and orange tabby cats have been reported as cougars, but now the white poodles are going to reported as polar bears. Especially after this "official" DNR document makes the rounds on the internet.
Anyone remember how many thousands of UFO sightings there were in the 50's & 60's after all of the space movies hit the theaters ?

L & O


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## multibeard

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Who is Adam Bump and why can he not read sign?


He is the DNR cougar garu.

When I showed him the pictures of the tracks out side of Pentwater, he tried his damdest to make dew drops from the tree above the tracks, into toe nail marks making the track canine. There are no dew drop marks any where near the front of the ROUND front pads in the tracks. That was his way of trying to make the tracks into dog tracks instead of what they are. cougar

The DNR will not admit that there are cougar in the LP until some one kills one with them present. Hell if some one hit one with a car and killed it they would probably claim that they brought the cougar in from out west.

Please disregard the above as I am gullible Right L&O


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## Liver and Onions

multibeard said:


> ..............
> 
> Please disregard the above as I am gullible Right L&O


It must be true because you say so. 

L & O


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## BVW

multibeard said:


> He is the DNR cougar garu.
> 
> When I showed him the pictures of the tracks out side of Pentwater, he tried his damdest to make dew drops from the tree above the tracks, into toe nail marks making the track canine. There are no dew drop marks any where near the front of the ROUND front pads in the tracks. That was his way of trying to make the tracks into dog tracks instead of what they are. cougar
> 
> The DNR will not admit that there are cougar in the LP until some one kills one with them present. Hell if some one hit one with a car and killed it they would probably claim that they brought the cougar in from out west.
> 
> Please disregard the above as I am gullible Right L&O


Its all in the lobes.. How many lobes does the track have? You could send the pics to a state that actually has a resident cougar population with trained experts. Try dnrs from out west, they actually work and see these cats often. One thing I get a kick out of is when guys say the DNR is lying about cougars, but when the DNR "confirms" one then its true because the DNR said so lol. 
I am not doubting your tracks, anything is possible. A lady in Missouri called officials to tell them she has a large black cat pawing at her door.. Turns out it was a black leopard! Someone's pet they guess : http://www.semissourian.com/story/1406967.htmll


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## randall729

Lower Michigan....... Look out for WOLVES to be introduced to your counties. You will be hunting deer elsewhere. Oh thats right, wolves are suppososed to be in the lower counties already. The DNR will tell the public about a month after releasing the wolves in your area. This has been the case in the U.P.


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## Liver and Onions

randall729 said:


> Lower Michigan....... Look out for WOLVES to be introduced to your counties. You will be hunting deer elsewhere. Oh thats right, wolves are suppososed to be in the lower counties already. The DNR will tell the public about a month after releasing the wolves in your area. This has been the case in the U.P.


Any chance that you and Multibeard are brothers ?

L & O


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## multibeard

Liver and Onions said:


> Any chance that you and Multibeard are brothers ?
> 
> L & O


Looks like all you are good it is belittling people. I guess that is how you get you jollies when you can not get it up.


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## Liver and Onions

multibeard said:


> Looks like all you are good it is belittling people. .............


I can see your point. 

randall729, I apologize for the question that I asked in my previous post.

I think Adam Bump, the DNR cougar expert, is the person who has a legit complaint. You showed him a photo, it wasn't totally clear, but he thought it was from a dog or coyote. Since you are so sure about this photo taken of a track, you no doubt have sent copies to the cougar experts in other states. What did they say ? 
Again, as soon as you or anyone else can actually present evidence that a cougar has visited the LP, the DNR will make the announcement. so far, no one has done that. Bar rumors and mistaken identification are just that.

L & O


----------



## cgwright

Liver and Onions said:


> the DNR ... expert


I am not sure I understand the ideas behind what the DNR experts put into law. But I'm just a guy with a keyboard and an opinion.

A few years ago "_Michigan has a huge problem with CWD_, _and we have banned baiting because of it_" is what a CO told me personally. 

Then a few short years later the ban was lifted, and restricted feeding was allowed. Baiting was again allowed, but during hunting season only to prevent the "spread" of CWD. But it's also okay to feed the deer for recreational viewing within 100 yards of your residence all year long. Because that wouldn't spread CWD?? 

Regarding cougars and proof...until I see one myself, or see prints / trail cam pictures, I won't know for sure that they are here. I have several friends that have spent countless hours in the woods of lower and northern MI that swear they have seen them. But they can't produce tracks, hair, scat, or pictures. I'm not going to call any of them liars, or question their ability as an outdoorsman. 

Hell, my family laughed at me when I told them I heard a turkey gobble in the early 80's. People just like to ridicule others, it's human nature. 

Bobcats and badgers are in the LP, but I've only seen one of each in my years outdoors. And my trailcams have never captured one image.


----------



## MEL

Liver and Onions said:


> Again, as soon as you or anyone else can actually_ present evidence_ that a cougar has visited the LP, the DNR will make the announcement. so far, no one has done that. Bar rumors and mistaken identification are just that.
> 
> L & O



"_*present evidence"*_ Ive followed this thread(and all the 100's of other cougar threads) and ive seen two sides. But what i dont get is the guys who complain that the DNR wont say we have them in the lower. They seen to think that providing the DNR with washed out tracks that are barely visable, or because uncle Joe in the the UP says it looks like a cougar picture then the DNR should just say we have them in the lower. 

If they jumped to those conclusions everytime someone says they have a michigan cougar picture from alpena with a cougar hit by a car on M65
then the DNR would/should admit a cougar in the lower........however, we all know that was a cougar picture from out west.
Or how about the Cougar from Martin, Mich looking thru the cabin door?
shouldnt the cougar thus be confirmed buy the DNR? i mean someone said it was from Martin Mich right? so that should be good enough for the 
DNR!!! That picture was proven to ne from out west as well. 

So if the DNR uses a picture of a cougar that YOU say is from the lower, dont you think the DNR will or must confirm it as deing from the lower.

I also notice the guys who claim they called the DNR when they saw cougar tracks in the sand and on one bothered to come out.... well if the DNR sent CO's out for every cougar, bigfoot, alien, shark, UFO and loch ness monster report they get then their would be no co's for all the other work. 
besides im sure that after 50+ years of chases the cougar in lower ghost.....after 1,000's of false reports.... after 1,000's of cats, dogs, and other cougar look alikes the DNR finally says, ENOUGH!! if their are cougars in the lower then they WILL show on game cams and then the DNR can 100% be certian of them. 

I also notice a lot of hostility to the DNR from alot of the guys. Its like the cougar sighter is pissed at the DNR for telling them they are wrong its not a cougar track but a washed out yote or a old watered down bobcat track. And those guys on here get pissy over it. you can look back over the posts here and see the guys and their attitudes to the DNR for not confirming that their picture of a cougar was really a golden retreaver.

Since the 50's reports have come in of them in the lower. NOT a single body, bone, confirmed picture in 60 years. yet in the sparcely populated upper they have 30+ CONFIRMED picts. why not one from the lower in all these years? ya gotta ask yourself why? it makes no sense not to have any picts, bones, scat, hair in the lower IF we have them.


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## 2508speed

Nice post MEL. I think there should be an open season on cougars in all of Michigan. Same with wolves. I'm old enough to remember when you could take a bear with your deer license. We didn't wipe the bears out and we won't wipe the wolves or cougars out if they are there. Let's get a couple cougars on the ground to confirm they are in the LP.


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## Sasquatch Lives

multibeard said:


> He is the DNR cougar garu.
> 
> When I showed him the pictures of the tracks out side of Pentwater, he tried his damdest to make dew drops from the tree above the tracks, into toe nail marks making the track canine. There are no dew drop marks any where near the front of the ROUND front pads in the tracks. That was his way of trying to make the tracks into dog tracks instead of what they are. cougar
> 
> The DNR will not admit that there are cougar in the LP until some one kills one with them present. Hell if some one hit one with a car and killed it they would probably claim that they brought the cougar in from out west.
> 
> Please disregard the above as I am gullible Right L&O


If "there are no cougars in the LP" then why does the DNR have a "cougar expert"? Ha Ha Also, what specialized training does this Bump guy have that makes him so much more knowledgeable than the rest of us, especially at reading sign?


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## dockstar

There are cougars and wolves both in LP without a doubt. I don't need any so called evidence or the DNR to prove it to me. It's only a matter of time before all of the haters and non believers become believers. And the sad fact of it is some people will never believe it until they actually see them with there own eyes.


----------



## MEL

Sasquatch Lives said:


> If "there are no cougars in the LP" then why does the DNR have a "cougar expert"? Ha Ha Also, what specialized training does this Bump guy have that makes him so much more knowledgeable than the rest of us, especially at reading sign?


1) Mich has a LP and a UP....Cougars are in the UP for sure, thus the need for a cougar expert.

2) Training out west in other states with cougar populations. in other words, hands on training with the Pros.


----------



## Sasquatch Lives

MEL said:


> 1) Mich has a LP and a UP....Cougars are in the UP for sure, thus the need for a cougar expert.
> 
> 2) Training out west in other states with cougar populations. in other words, hands on training with the Pros.


Is Mr. Bump's office in the UP where the cougars are? Since there are so few cougars in the UP that there is no hunting season for them and they don't need to be managed AND since there are NO cougars (per the DNR) in the LP, once again, why do we need a "cougar expert"?


----------



## MEL

dockstar said:


> It's only a matter of time before all of the haters and non believers become believers. And the sad fact of it is some people will never believe it until they actually see them with there own eyes.


Who are the "haters"? i dont think their are any "haters" here. as a matter of fact everyone here ive talked to think cougars are very cool and exciting if/when we do find proof! 

By "non believers" are you refering to the fact that their is no evidance of any in the lower? ive been told for about 40 years that we have cougars in the lower. See it on the chennel 7 news at 6PM every now and then about all these people who see these cougars.......but still never any solid, verifyable PROOF, no evidance. no scat, picts, bones, 
we only have the word of people who have never seen one all of a sudden seeing them in a far away field. or in the headlights. or looking in my back deck window..... always proved to be false


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## MEL

Sasquatch Lives said:


> Is Mr. Bump's office in the UP where the cougars are? Since there are so few cougars in the UP that there is no hunting season for them and they don't need to be managed AND since there are NO cougars (per the DNR) in the LP, once again, why do we need a "cougar expert"?


I cant state the law or the rules but the cougar being a federal protected animal on the federal protecting list, if a state has one, it must have a cougar expert........per the Feds....or risk certian funding and programs being pulled from said state. thats my poor attempt to explain it......ask the Feds why we need a expert if you want a better answer.


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## Luv2hunteup

I thought Adam Bump's position with the DNR was bear and fur bearer specialist.


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## Liver and Onions

Luv2hunteup said:


> I thought Adam Bump's position with the DNR was bear and fur bearer specialist.


When I talked with him 2 or 3 summers ago, he was the point man for everything dealing with cougars for the DNR. Pretty sure you are correct about bear, fur bearing and maybe wolf. Not sure about cougar anymore. 
DNR website might have the answer.

L & O


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## BVW

"Having" cougars can mean two things. Having a few wondering males from the Dakota's find their way to the state.. Or, having a breeding population. No chance for a breeding population here. Any state with enough cats to breed have many many dead ones each year from cars and people. Zero female cougars have been found anywhere near here in over a hundred years. Only a few males have ever been found dead or alive in Michigan and Wisconsin. Zero cats have ever been found in the LP in over 100 years. If we had a population of cats they would be getting ran over like all the other states that have them. There could be a few transient cats that have found their way to the lp but even this hasn't been even close to proven. It simply hasn't happened, despite everyones stories and sightings.Yes its Possible in the lp, but that's all we have now is a possibility, but zero cats have been documented. 

With about 200-250 cats in south dakota they kill a few dozen a year with cars and from ranchers shooting them. During the 2013 sd Hunting season hunters killed over 60+ cats. Over 200+ cats have been killed since 2005 there in SD . Having only a few hundred of any animal in a big state like sd isnt a lot... But hunters and cars kill a lot each year there, which gos to show they are not that hard to find. Florida has under 200 cats and they study them in the thick everglades.. Cougars die every year there also. I do however think a transient cat will eventually find its way to the lp if it hasn't happened already.. But it won't live long.


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## randall729

Liver and Onions said:


> I can see your point.
> 
> randall729, I apologize for the question that I asked in my previous post.
> 
> I think Adam Bump, the DNR cougar expert, is the person who has a legit complaint. You showed him a photo, it wasn't totally clear, but he thought it was from a dog or coyote. Since you are so sure about this photo taken of a track, you no doubt have sent copies to the cougar experts in other states. What did they say ?
> Again, as soon as you or anyone else can actually present evidence that a cougar has visited the LP, the DNR will make the announcement. so far, no one has done that. Bar rumors and mistaken identification are just that.
> 
> L & O


L and O. Don't worry about it. I take no offense whatsoever.


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## randall729

MEL said:


> "_*present evidence"*_ Ive followed this thread(and all the 100's of other cougar threads) and ive seen two sides. But what i dont get is the guys who complain that the DNR wont say we have them in the lower. They seen to think that providing the DNR with washed out tracks that are barely visable, or because uncle Joe in the the UP says it looks like a cougar picture then the DNR should just say we have them in the lower.
> 
> If they jumped to those conclusions everytime someone says they have a michigan cougar picture from alpena with a cougar hit by a car on M65
> then the DNR would/should admit a cougar in the lower........however, we all know that was a cougar picture from out west.
> Or how about the Cougar from Martin, Mich looking thru the cabin door?
> shouldnt the cougar thus be confirmed buy the DNR? i mean someone said it was from Martin Mich right? so that should be good enough for the
> DNR!!! That picture was proven to ne from out west as well.
> 
> So if the DNR uses a picture of a cougar that YOU say is from the lower, dont you think the DNR will or must confirm it as deing from the lower.
> 
> I also notice the guys who claim they called the DNR when they saw cougar tracks in the sand and on one bothered to come out.... well if the DNR sent CO's out for every cougar, bigfoot, alien, shark, UFO and loch ness monster report they get then their would be no co's for all the other work.
> besides im sure that after 50+ years of chases the cougar in lower ghost.....after 1,000's of false reports.... after 1,000's of cats, dogs, and other cougar look alikes the DNR finally says, ENOUGH!! if their are cougars in the lower then they WILL show on game cams and then the DNR can 100% be certian of them.
> 
> I also notice a lot of hostility to the DNR from alot of the guys. Its like the cougar sighter is pissed at the DNR for telling them they are wrong its not a cougar track but a washed out yote or a old watered down bobcat track. And those guys on here get pissy over it. you can look back over the posts here and see the guys and their attitudes to the DNR for not confirming that their picture of a cougar was really a golden retreaver.
> 
> Since the 50's reports have come in of them in the lower. NOT a single body, bone, confirmed picture in 60 years. yet in the sparcely populated upper they have 30+ CONFIRMED picts. why not one from the lower in all these years? ya gotta ask yourself why? it makes no sense not to have any picts, bones, scat, hair in the lower IF we have them.


It's too bad people will send a falsified document to the authorities and media and it turns out to be a spoof. No wonder the MDNR are wary. I suspect this brought about check in stations.


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## Sasquatch Lives

BVW said:


> "Having" cougars can mean two things. Having a few wondering males from the Dakota's find their way to the state.. Or, having a breeding population. No chance for a breeding population here. Any state with enough cats to breed have many many dead ones each year from cars and people. Zero female cougars have been found anywhere near here in over a hundred years. Only a few males have ever been found dead or alive in Michigan and Wisconsin. Zero cats have ever been found in the LP in over 100 years. If we had a population of cats they would be getting ran over like all the other states that have them. There could be a few transient cats that have found their way to the lp but even this hasn't been even close to proven. It simply hasn't happened, despite everyones stories and sightings.Yes its Possible in the lp, but that's all we have now is a possibility, but zero cats have been documented.
> 
> With about 200-250 cats in south dakota they kill a few dozen a year with cars and from ranchers shooting them. During the 2013 sd Hunting season hunters killed over 60+ cats. Over 200+ cats have been killed since 2005 there in SD . Having only a few hundred of any animal in a big state like sd isnt a lot... But hunters and cars kill a lot each year there, which gos to show they are not that hard to find. Florida has under 200 cats and they study them in the thick everglades.. Cougars die every year there also. I do however think a transient cat will eventually find its way to the lp if it hasn't happened already.. But it won't live long.


First off, if a cougar mauls someone or eats someone's dog, does it matter whether it is a migrating male or a resident breeding female with kittens? Nope. 

Secondly, as far as cats getting hit by cars, I grew up hunting in a state that has one of the highest populations of bobcats in the US..... Guess how many roadkill bobcats I saw over a 30 year period? ONE! Guess how many I saw in the woods during deer season (which is 3 1/2 months long there) over the same 30 years? THREE! Cougars and bobcats are secretive and reclusive creatures and just because you don't see them often doesn't mean they ain't there.


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## swampbuck

Very rare to see a bobcat, see lots of tracks


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## randall729

Sasquatch Lives said:


> First off, if a cougar mauls someone or eats someone's dog, does it matter whether it is a migrating male or a resident breeding female with kittens? Nope.
> 
> Secondly, as far as cats getting hit by cars, I grew up hunting in a state that has one of the highest populations of bobcats in the US..... Guess how many roadkill bobcats I saw over a 30 year period? ONE! Guess how many I saw in the woods during deer season (which is 3 1/2 months long there) over the same 30 years? THREE! Cougars and bobcats are secretive and reclusive creatures and just because you don't see them often doesn't mean they ain't there.


Scenario: U.P. Michigan. Resident 30 years. Vehicle killed bobcats seen 1 or 2. Bobcats running across the road seen 0. Vehicle killed cougar seen 0. Cougar running across the road seen 2.


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## Liver and Onions

Cougars in Minnesota.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/cougar/index.html

Cougars in Wisconsin.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wiscon...-confirm-2-cougar-sightings-in-278388511.html

No evidence of breeding in either state.

The Cougar Network:

http://www.cougarnet.org/sites/original/uppermidwest.html

L & O


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## RobW

The LP is a big place, and I'm sceptical of anyone who claims to have a complete inventory of resident animals. It wouldn't surprise me to find we have a few resident cats around. I doubt there's a breeding population, but what do I know? I don't have a tower with an eye on top. We probably get a few transients, too, which spend some time here... to categorically deny the possibility of something like a cat or two wandering around says a lot about your confidence.


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## BVW

RobW said:


> The LP is a big place, and I'm sceptical of anyone who claims to have a complete inventory of resident animals. It wouldn't surprise me to find we have a few resident cats around. I doubt there's a breeding population, but what do I know? I don't have a tower with an eye on top. We probably get a few transients, too, which spend some time here... to categorically deny the possibility of something like a cat or two wandering around says a lot about your confidence.


 I agree , but I don't think anyone is saying that it isn't possible to have cats in the LP, just that it hasn't been proven yet in the lp . I will however argue that there is a breeding population . You need many cats , not just a few secret cats sneaking around and hiding. To breed and maintain numbers you also need genetic diversity, unrelated cats. Having a few cats won't allow this and they will not survive. States with breeding populations have well studied cats that are found easily . Cougaes are also hit by cars all the time in these states. Cougars need to roam and work hard to eat, they don't hide in caves their whole lives. 



Here is very interesting reading about how there are thousands of sightings of big cats in the UK despite not having native big cats: "._ "In 1995, government inspectors spent months on Bodmin moor in Cornwall looking for evidence of a &#8216;beast&#8217; roaming wild there. They found nothing. Yet every year there are 2,000 similarly spurious big-cat sightings in Britain. What&#8217;s going on_?"". http://doubtfulnews.com/2013/05/british-big-cats-wheres-the-evidence/


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## 2508speed

Michigan needs to put a bounty on cougars. Kind of like steurgon spearing. 1 female mountain lion and the bounty ceases. Then we will know there is a possible breeding population.


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## BVW

2508speed said:


> Michigan needs to put a bounty on cougars. Kind of like steurgon spearing. 1 female mountain lion and the bounty ceases. Then we will know there is a possible breeding population.


About 40 females would be needed to establish a breeding population  Also non-related males coming from Ohio Indiana Illinois WISC. Florida has around 40-50 females and their cats could be extinct in the near future. Biologists are intervening and trying to bring in out west cougars to help with genetic diversity.. Keep in mind this is with 100+ cats, and they are studied and researched and yet they are endangered and struggling. Also they get hit by cars, and its thick deep woods with no snow.. They still find these cats without snow in FL.. Explain how if they are so illusive? . so in Mich , WISC, Indiana Ohio , Illinois zero females have been found and only a few males on 100 years. logically this would lead one to believe a breeding population is highly unlikely.


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