# Fish This! (hypothetical)



## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

Can you stand on that lower area that says trees and brush?
If you can stand about where you wrote 'slow' and cast up and across stream and mend upstream like a banshee you might get a long enough drag-free drift to nail him. A good mend will also put the fly in front of the fish before you line him. By the look of your sketch you might have to roll cast or do a heck of a bow and arrow cast to get your fly to the upper bank.


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

steeldrifter,

That streamer thing would be a technique I don't think i've tried, but with the current there, it'd have to be a pretty fast mover the second it passed that fish to avoid that jam. Also, those boys are usually buissy on the hatchers coming off around dusk.when I've had my best luck. There might be something to getting up ahead on the opposite bank with that streamer though.

Jackster,

You pegged my spot. Those trees behind are overhanging kind of low though. It'd be even a tough roll cast (for me) and pretty long on the b&a cast too. I've got to practice that one more this year. You may be on to something of a new attempt here.

Al


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## TODDFATHER (Jun 5, 2002)

Salmonator logjam extrordinaire:

I have the scene down pat but would like a little more info: Can you see the fish? Does he rise? Is there a fish there, or are you working a spot that this monster inhabits? Is there a water path around the backside of the logjam under the undercut? How deep is water the target fish in? Is he in a counterclockwise eddy on the map? I think we can get a hook in him but i'm not sure you'll land him. You're gonna lose some fly's on this one but he can be taken. 



Toddfather


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

Todd'

I guess I left a bunch of info out.

1.) No, you can't see him.

2.) Yes, He's there anyway. like clockwork. Year after year. He just takes a bit longer to start rising than the rest of 'em.

3.) The water beneath him is sloping downward quickly (I'd guess about 45-60 Deg.) but probably starting at 2-2.5'. He's at the head of the hole. 

4.) there is no possible way around that jam (front or back) that I've found in all the years I've fished it. It is a fly eater. The current does run counter-clockwise for an instant, but not strong enough to get around that jam. The fly always gets carried under and trapped in the mess of all my other flies from years past. I've tried drifting nymphes under it. It's the wall of wood and does not tolerate tresspassers of anykind. It's not just a couple of logs at the surface, it's a tangled mass that goes to the bottom. Trout heaven.

Al


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## WILDCATWICK (Mar 11, 2002)

f your goal is to get this one monster and he is like clock work. Does not start rising until other do. I would get there early enough to hit him up before he starts rising and I would use a streamer. I would stand where you wrote "current" and cast up stream with a down stream meand and start ripping it. This may also help you avoid getting caught up in the log jam.
I have caught some big browns ripping the treammer downstream then across in really fast water. It is amazing how fast a big brown will move for bigger food and/or when it's territory has been threatend. Many times I thought that my booger was flying to fast to be caught but they will take. While working this method start a little further upstream and slowly work your way back down until your swinging your fly right in front of the log jam. Who knows you may get a different lunker out of there as well.
The dry fly suggestions were good. Those are tough situations. HOW FUN


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

WILDCATWICK,

Well, that's the second streamer suggestion I've gotten, so I'm gonna' have to try it this year, Though it will be as a last ditch effort. I know I can get this dude on a dry, as I've had him on for a few seconds before in the past, and that's really the way I'd like to catch him, but If'n I don't succede that way, I'll unleash everything under my hat at him this year.

The watter is pretty clear up there typically, and relatively shallow before it droppes off into that hole.Smooth surface too. What streamer pattern would you suggest I try first? I have my favorites, but I'm mostely a dry fly guy.

Al


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## Old Steelhead Dude (Jan 5, 2003)

It probley the hardest thing to try to fish a scenario thats just being explained to you 
I guess for me I would have to be there.
I catch more big fish on Wet fly and nymphs than on dries and I have real good success on streamers when I'm fishing big water.


OSD.


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## steeldrifter (Apr 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SALMONATOR _
> 
> 
> What streamer pattern would you suggest I try first? I have my favorites, but I'm mostely a dry fly guy.
> ...


AL i know what you mean i'd rather catch him on a dry also but a streamer is a deadly thing alot of times!

I would say a zoo couger or sculpin....anything to trigger aggressin.....your not going after hunger since you said a streamer would be swept by him pretty fast..you want to pi$$ him off,trigger a response!

steve


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## TODDFATHER (Jun 5, 2002)

I've never liked fishing logjams for all the reasons that this scenario has provided. Admittedly, large concentrations of fish exist in, and around these, but fishing them is usually problematic! 

Assumptions:
Large fish get that way by higher calorie intake than provided by insects alone! Undoubtedly a predator and highly territorial! Will take fly's but essentially feeds on smaller fish! Probably keeps a clean hole and only allows the presence of other large or medium size fish.

Being at the head of the hole and shallow is questionably the position that it normally holds in, and more likely the position that is taken when feeding on insects, when not on the ambush. Im sure this fish ambushs his food at the head of the pool while normally hiding in the slower deep water: on the undercut side, and well inside the seam of faster water. 

The fish is not currently rising

You are willing to spoil the upstream water to catch the larger fish that holds below


How Id fish it: 

If found rising: I wouldnt be too concerned with matching the hatch but rather would opt for a variation of the method I mentioned earlier in the thread (blind spot) with a large terrestrial, such as a big beetle, grasshopper or large stimulator of some sort, and put it down with authority as a first cast methodology! All in all if youre thinking about taking this fish with a dry, the hook better have some integrity. You know when hooked hes heading for the logs. With that said, even if youre able to hook it, whats the point if theres no possibility of landing it? If youre hell bent on a dry, the real question is at what vantage point! Youd have to be an aggressive wader to attempt the lowest portion of the gravel but thats most likely where Id try since Im not willing to throw a dry above him. If we read about somebody finding your carcass under the logjam some day, well know my advice wasnt worth a tinkers damn. With the fish in 2 ft of water, and 8 ft from the logjam, a short drift could be sufficient. A 9 ft rod with 15 foot of line out would give you about 20 ft of line to play with, possibly with a reach cast or merely dappled. 

Not rising: I think you honestly have a streamer fish here, and that would be my preferred method of fishing for it. I would dredge the hole C&D style before attempting anything else. My vantage point would be the upper portion of the gravel run if possible. Lots of people would disagree with me on this next point but thats ok, were talking about how Id fish it not them! I would use lots of weight, and an extremely fast strip to prevent the streamer from swimming at the target fish. Its controversial but I feel, as many others: its generally frightening to a large fish when a smaller fish seems to be attacking it! Obviously not in all cases but would tend to think in most. I would work the far water first (close as possible to the logjam) and progressively attempt reaching the undercut. Id fish an extremely fast short strips quickly retrieved. The second vantage would position me at the undercut bank with my backside to the upstream logjam. Id mark my line to the distance of the logjam and throw a heavily weight streamer out to the fast water and let it carry downstream. When Ive reached my marked line limit, I would begin my retrieve of varied strips and twitches. Id try to cover the full length of the logjam starting in the fast water and progressively moving my retrieve over to the slow water. 

My last attempt would be one that has worked for me in the past on fish ignored everything. Bare in mind, many fish have been caught by a streamer dangling in the water while a fisherman attempted to light a cigar. Positioned at the undercut bank you could rest a streamer in front of this fish and let it set there! Give it a full 10 minutes of dangling, and then twitch it! 





Toddfather


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## steeldrifter (Apr 7, 2003)

Toddfather just in the short time i,ve been around i can tell you know your stuff and i respect your knowledge of flyfishing so i dont mean to sound like i disagree with you but i cant help but ask.....why do you say it's frightening to a large fish when a small one seem's to be attacking it,that go's against some theroy's i,ve heard thats the only reason i ask.


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

Lots of good Ideas to try here. Sounds like I'll have to brush up on my streamer fishing this summer. By the way 'Drifter, You mentioned my favorite one. I fell in love with those cougars a couple years ago, and was thinking of trying the same thing.

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm gonna catch that sucker this year one way or the other. Over the years I've developed a really wierd way to put my fly over him, as I've said. I stand directly scross from him, with one foot in the hole, like I said, keeping my profile low. Quartering away from the fish, theres just enough room between those trees on the point to allow me to thread a cast between them. I pitch into the woods, so I can watch my cast and then let the fly drop a few feet ahead of him on the back-cast. Then it's a dash to turn and start mending my a$$ off for about 6-8' of drift before my fly starts dragging. Then I roll the line on the retrive just before it hits the jam so as not to create a big wake by dragging it off so close to the fish. Every time I've gotten a take, it's been within 5 or 6 inches off the bank. 

So far this method hasn't put him down. Only hooking him has. and that's never lasted but a couple of seconds up to this point (due to failed hook-sets). I don't use ultra small leaders. Generally I use a 6lb tippet and that hasn't scared him away (though I usually fish this hole at dusk) so If I can't pull him clear of that log-jam It's all my fault. 

As TODDFATHER mentioned, I don't know if he's living under that cut bank all day. I tend to think he moves up from the depths of that tangle come feeding time as the sun is beating pretty healily on that side of the river most of the day.

Anyway, thanks for the Ideas fella's. I'll post a pic' if I do get lucky this year. I like this thread. Who's got the next toughy?

Al


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## TODDFATHER (Jun 5, 2002)

Steeldrifter,

Firstly, your kindness exeeds my knowledge but, thanks for your vote of confidence. Because we may disagree doesn't matter much, I don't take it personal. Yes I do believe that it's generally frightening to a large fish when a small one seem's to be attacking it, but with qualifications. In an attempt to preserve the theme of this thread, I'll send you my spin on it via email. You asked a llegitimate question, and that request deserves an answer. If you wish to post it to a new thread for debate, feel free to do so but: It's likely going to go sour because of contrasting opinions, you be the judge. I'm here to learn, share, and at times debate, but never to defend myself. OK?


Everybody! 

Come on guys! There are 498 veiws on this thread. You guys are reading it but why not take it further, PARTICIPATE! Describe a little scenario and lets see the contrast in our fishing methods. Who knows, we all might learn a little along the way! If you can show a sketch fine, if not, that's fine too but either way, nothing's going to be learned without dialogue! Salmonator's post is going to be a tough act to follow but who cares! We'll get through it! 

Who's next? Batter Up!



Toddfather


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## Jackster1 (Aug 17, 2001)

This has happens to me in two spots, one on a of a river way north of M-72 and again at a beaver pond northeast of T.C.
In the river there are two currents separated by a floating weed pad. I can see the darn fish on the other side of the weeds, the water is crystal clear, I just can't get a drag-free drift long enough to trick them. I would really like to nab them on a dry fly.
In the pond I can hook up, I just can't get the fish to the hand. In the pond there is no way to access the clear side of the weed pad, I have to cast over the weeds and let the line land on the them. The current is very slow and drag is not a problem with a good curve cast, again, the fish get hooked but always manage to get off due to the weeds.
C'mon guys, what to do?


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## Old Steelhead Dude (Jan 5, 2003)

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7885


OSD.


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## TODDFATHER (Jun 5, 2002)

I've come across a similar situation (without two seperate currents) a mile or so below Mio where I had to cast across a span of anchored weeds to clearer water on the other side. The problem became the same, when retrieving the fish they would dive to the bottom and force me to drag them across the weeds where they buried themselves. I overcame this by dropping back in the stream immediately after hooking them, and coaxed them downstream and across, pulling them (relativly) lengthwise to the weeds instead of dead across them. If you let the fish drop below you, you might as well kiss it goodby! Keep the fish well above you and drop back if necessary maintaining that position! I've been well into the backing at times and wondered if I were doing the right thing. For the most part, I've usually managed to get the fish! Give it a try! It worked for me! 


Toddfather


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

Jackster',

On the stream, I might try to sneak down dirctly below them and maybe a bit outside a ways, if you can. Curve one upstream and hit them in the back of the head, like TODDFATHER mentioned in the first scenario. Might be the way to go, with no time for a good drift especially. I would think, using that method, that you might get away with a bit stronger tipet, as the trout won't have much time to inspect your offering. As soon as you get one on, you've got to turn your rod away from that weedbed and pull him out of there.

That beaver pond is a toughy for sure. Sounds like it would be better fished with a float tube or a kick-boat or something.

Al


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## TODDFATHER (Jun 5, 2002)

Sheesh Jackster! 

I got so caught up with my flashback, and writing about it, only after reading Salmonator's post do I realize I didnt' respond to your fishing scenario at all! I envision you having the same problem as I had with retrieving the fish from the weeds! 

I agree you need a different vantage point if possible but you already indicated that would not be likely. With that said, I too think this might also be a good place to hit them in the blind spot but I think it's important to clearly understand the do's and don'ts of it as follows to be successful: Aparently this is a new tactic for a few of you guys so bear in mind when preforming this:

1) You must hit deeper fish further behind than those in shallows
2) Works best in smooth surfaced water
3) Fished from behind is safest. Fished from the side has risks: You cast can't be long or short fished this way or you'll miss the blind spot and probably put down the fish. 
4) Set the fly down with authority to cause ripples.


Toddfather


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## Old Steelhead Dude (Jan 5, 2003)

Yup sneaking up on the fish from behind them is the best bet for getting close enough for a good presentation of your fly.
People who wade down a stream just because its easier walking are spooking most of the fish before they ever see them.
But spotting fish is not the only way to fish a stream reading water is more important.
When I approach a stream I read the water and just assume that theres fish in every bit of holding water and structure .


OSD.


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## SALMONATOR (Jan 7, 2003)

I agree 100% OSD. I tend to do alot better from behind without kicking all that grevell and silt up just to float over the fish I'm about to cast to. Also, I believe that 90% of the time any trout you can see before you cast to it has already been eyeballing you for a while before you get your line wet. They may still be catchable, but I think it proves a bit more difficult once your presece is in the back of there mind. I just approach things with caution, and stand as far away from where I think the fish are as I can and still manage a good degree of controll in my cast.

A guy with your experience has to have run across some hairy situations over the years. Any good ones? Love to hear about one.

Al


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## TODDFATHER (Jun 5, 2002)

Here's one that's most likely happened to everybody at one time or another! There you stand waist deep in water fishing a rise. You decide a fly change is in order, and proceed looking through your fly box, when out of the corner of your eye find a nice fish has started to rise almost close enough to reach out and grab. Believe it or not, I've never been able to catch such a fish! Sounds simple doesn't it? Dapple a fly on the water or an easy reach cast should do it! The problem seems to be, the fish know's you're there but doesn't particularly care! To be sure, you could spook it if you wanted to, but in the absence of doing that, the fish continues as though no threat existed at all! Any of you guys had any luck in this situation? I've fished that stupid fish for well over an hour only to become frustrated and move on! How do you get a fish to "take" when he know's you're there? 


Toddfather


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