# Minutes of the 5/6 Coldwater Committee meeting



## kzoofisher

Most interesting development in my view is the banning of snagging "lures" on the Manistee and other northwest streams.



> Treble Hook Restriction Regulation (Mark Tonello)
> Mark Tonello explained that illegal activities on NW Michigan streams, particular during the salmon run in the fall, continue to be a major problem. This is despite the fact that snagging has been illegal for 25+ years. Law Enforcement Division has asked that we help them address the issue by tweaking fishing regulations on certain streams where problems exist. Here is the current draft proposed regulation:
> From August 1 to November 15, terminal fishing gear is restricted to single point, non-weighted hooks, no larger than 1&#8260;2 inch from point to shank. Treble hooks (no larger than 3/8 inch from point to shank) may only be used when attached to a lure. A lure is defined as a body bait, plug, spinner, or spoon. A lure is not a device primarily constructed of lead, commonly referred to as a grabber, lead minnow, salmon slayer, torpedo, or Turks tickler.
> This gear restriction shall be enacted for the following waters: Benzie County: All waters of the Betsie River. Manistee County: All waters of Bear Creek. All waters of the Betsie
> River. The Manistee River from Tippy Dam downstream to Railroad
> Bridge below M-55 (T21N, R16W, S6). Mason County: The Big Sable River downstream of Hamlin Lake Dam.
> Several questioned why the regulation was not written to cover more waters. Tonello explained that this was the compromise that was arrived at within the Department. The streams listed are those that have annual, recurring, intense law enforcement issues on them. Another comment was that if this law is enacted, it may shift snagging effort to other rivers that dont have the regulation. Those rivers named included the White, Muskegon, and Pere Marquette rivers. Tonello explained that if this regulation is successful and that happens, we can certainly add more waters in the future. It was pointed out that if this regulation if proven effective, it can be extended to other Michigan waters that have other restrictions that are intended to prevent snagging. Tonello also explained that Law Enforcement Division has met with the County Prosecutors for all three of the counties affected by this proposal, and all three were wholeheartedly in favor.


Also notable is a discussion of meadow versus forested riparian habitat.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/CRSC-Minutes-May2014_458818_7.pdf


----------



## kzoofisher

Should have mentioned that this is a proposal, earliest it could take effect is 14 months from now. There will probably be some public comment and maybe letter writing, assuming the snaggers can write.


----------



## toto

I think it's a great idea. We all know we can't seem to stop the snagging, but just having one of these "snagging" hooks in possession may well slow it down. I'm pretty curious as to what the angler preference survey will say. I would like to know more about what Borgeson is talking about. I think I have a pretty good idea, but what like to know more.


----------



## Robert Holmes

Also consider that no more than 1 single or treble hook may be attached to a line. It makes it a little more difficult to force feed them this way.


----------



## swampbuck

One thing I still don't get after 25 years or so....Those salmon are going to die anyways, they don't bite well if all when they get near the end. Why is it illegal to snag, especially at the upper reaches of their run.

I would rather see those fish caught and used than rotting in the rivers.


----------



## jatc

swampbuck said:


> One thing I still don't get after 25 years or so....Those salmon are going to die anyways, they don't bite well if all when they get near the end. Why is it illegal to snag, especially at the upper reaches of their run.
> 
> I would rather see those fish caught and used than rotting in the rivers.



Primary reason is because there are so many other fish in the system at the same time. Browns, steelhead, lakers, and resident trout being the primary ones.

There are other social reasons that come into play as well, but the fact that a silver spider doesn't differentiate between a mostly dead anyway king and a fresh steelhead would be number one.


----------



## swampbuck

I snagged back when it was legal, and seen many others do it, I don't remember any incidental catches.


----------



## jatc

swampbuck said:


> I snagged back when it was legal, and seen many others do it, I don't remember any incidental catches.


Yeah, I was pretty young back then, but I don't recall seeing many "mistakes" either.

I was just relaying what could be found as far as why the snagging was stopped.

I know many would take issue with my thoughts, but I wouldn't have a problem with legalized snagging in certain areas.

I'd be OK with a snagging season on the Big M from September 1-30 from Suicide Bend to Tippy (limit of two fish), as long as the rest of the stream went to a single hook only rule. Single Siwash hooks work just fine on T-sticks, spinners, flies, and eggs for fish that actually bite.


----------



## fishinDon

Based on what Tonello presented in the meeting, my guess is this anti-snagging regulation gets on the books. They already have buy-in from the county courts, etc. And enforcement likes it. 

As far as the forested/meadow riparian habitat discussion is concerned, that was one of the most interesting presentations I've seen yet at a coldwater meeting. Basically, the theory is that old growth forest right down to the bank may not be great for small headwaters streams. The canopy chokes out all the grasses, etc. and allows for tons of sand/silt/sediment to be eroded that is no longer held by those fine grassy root systems. Grass/Meadow riparian habitat holds way more sediment and allows the stream to dig a deeper channel, allowing for better trout holding cover and keeping the sediment from covering the spawning habitat. Of course, we all know where a lot of that eroded sediment ends up - deposited downstream and in the mainstems. Anyway, I really enjoyed that piece because I always thought Large Woody Debris was the best thing you could do for a stream. But that might not be true for the little headwater streams if it comes at the expense of the grassy/meadow sections that hold the banks together.

Good fishing,
Don


----------



## toto

That's about what I thought, and it makes sense. Wonder how you could combine the two to not only eliminate runoff, but also cool the water as well.


----------



## AdamBradley

I have had a lot of communication with Mark following my review of the meetings a couple of weeks back.

I had concerns regarding being forbid to use a treble below a bobber to fish skein. (read it carefully, can't do it) I had recommendation to modify the verbiage to permit use when employed with bobber.... Essentially, verbiage as it stands took a long time to get everyone on board (COs, county PAs, etc), there is no consideration for modification....

Yes, he did confirm we are talking about 2015 regs, not this fall.

So while a small setback for us using trebles ethically, a huge win in the big picture!


----------



## kzoofisher

Good info Adam, thanks. Can always use a single hook under a bobber or a jig. Agree that it is worth it to stop the snagging and hopefully make Tippy a place safe for kids and civilized people. 

Don't think the grass vs mature forest thing will go anywhere. Too difficult to implement and a lot of questions about the relevance of a prairie habitat to northern Michigan. Might be more useful for the Dowagiac, Paw Paw and feeder streams down this way.


----------



## Boardman Brookies

kzoofisher said:


> Don't think the grass vs mature forest thing will go anywhere. Too difficult to implement and a lot of questions about the relevance of a prairie habitat to northern Michigan. Might be more useful for the Dowagiac, Paw Paw and feeder streams down this way.


I agree 100%. This is WAY to big of an undertaking. I have seen in first hand on an excellent feeder creek in an old growth forest. Two years ago we got a very wet and heavy snow in March and many trees feel along the banks of the creek. The creek was once a stable flowing gravel bed creek that was a nursery for brookies and browns(also held some bruisers) It is now a cluster F that is FULL of sand.


----------



## mrjimspeaks

Wow, heard about this last season as a rumor. Guess I'll actually have to learn the egg loop, and stop being lazy and just mounding skein around a treble.


----------



## AdamBradley

Haha! I hear ya, i had a hell of a time starting with them, then i saw someone tie one like in this video, and now I tie them this way myself. soooooooo easy! 

Tying an egg loop: 




Sent from my SM-G900V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## ausable_steelhead

Very glad to hear the anti-snagging regs. I haven't used a treb with skein in years(or on a spoon either). Bobber and spawn at Tippy just crushes kings there, and you get to do it right in front of the snaggers! They're always so shocked that you're tagging fish after fish after fish..kings, skams, coho...while they jerk away.

As far as incidental snag jobs...it happens more than people know. Years ago in early October on the Au Sable river, I saw a man snag a mint steelhead at Foote, and the image of that chrome beauty with bright red blood streaming down it's side as he hurriedly ran it up to his car had an affect on me to this day. Besides that, snaggers ruin everything and every place they frequent. Let those salmon rot in the stream...it's nothing but food for the river. It you can't get salmon to go the real way; put the rod down and go elsewhere.


----------



## AdamBradley

I hear ya AS! While it is fun to shock them with ethically hooked fish, I also always take the time to "show them the way" if I can tell they are generally interested in learning. Even saw one guy I set up the next year, skein in hand, fish on the rope and all! Pretty cool to see.

I haven't switched to singles yet, but of course, I will be working with them real soon! What's your go to make/model/size on singles?

Agreed 100% as well, they are actually quite easy to catch, far easier than ripping into one!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## kzoofisher

> I haven't switched to singles yet, but of course, I will be working with them real soon! What's your go to make/model/size on singles?


 I'm a fan of Mustad in general and I like their egg hooks, 2x strong, C67S. They're also worlds cheaper than the Gamkatsu. Friend of mine has some pink hooks the work well on the Joe but not on the Kazoo, who knows why. I've also seen them in red, chartreuse and orange but I never bother with the colors because I always bury the hook in the eggs. I do avoid the ones with the bait holder barb because I think it messes up the knot and nicks the line. Size 8-12 depending on how many eggs are being used.


----------



## AdamBradley

Thanks for the tips! I too am a Mustad fan for a lot of applications, particularly the ones I tie with.

Honestly I'm surprised you go that small on skein! Most guys seem to run as large as legally possible in my circle?

Will give it a whirl!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Ohub Campfire mobile app


----------



## kzoofisher

Small hooks was the way I learned and it works so I've never changed, rarely use skein bigger than an inch either. Use 14's on wobble glows, too. The small hooks seem to set themselves with just with the pressure of the bobber and I don't have to manage slack too much on the drift. I've thought about trying circle hooks but worry about the point getting buried in the skein and not finding the fishes mouth. Anybody use them with success?


----------

