# Brittany Spaniel Questions



## KCRuger (Oct 18, 2010)

Hello all,

I have been reading this forum every day for months now. I want to say that this is a great group of people with a tremendous wealth of knowledge. 

This year was my very first time hunting over dogs. A few weeks ago I went pheasant hunting and have to say that I am now hooked. I also have decided I am going to get a dog to hunt birds over. Everyone I talk to say A Brittany is a great dog for hunting upland game and I think that it is the way I want to go. 

Do you guys recommend a breeder in state? What do you guys think of Haps Spice Rum as a breeder? Would you recommend any other breeders? What do I need to know? Do you guys recommend a specific cores for a new hunting dog owner? I am going to go all in on this thing, but it is important to me that I learn how to and actually train the dog. Please any advice I can get would be greatly appreciated.


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## Bonz 54 (Apr 17, 2005)

KC,

Welcome to the Forum and to the wonderful world of Brittanys. (I bred Brittanys for 30 years, but have Pointers now). I feel I should tell you that Brittanys haven't been called Spaniel since 1980. That's when the members of the American Brittany Club voted and approved the dropping of Spaniel from the name. The use of Spaniel in searches could lead you to the French bred Brittanys which is a very different dog. Brittanys have the most color variety of ANY AKC recognized breed, with 10 possible varieties. If you plan to just hunt your Brit I would suggest buying it from a breeder that hunts. A trial bred Brittany is going to be just as capable of competing with any long tail and may not be what you are looking for. There are several Breeders in Michigan and some on these boards. The ones I consistantly recommend is Ron and Carol Auten in Oxford, MI. I know what they have, what they breed for, and I am confident they can supply you with a pup to fit your needs. Good Luck and have fun. FRANK


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## KCRuger (Oct 18, 2010)

Frank

Thank you for the information. I had read that they dropped the Spaniel part but figured I would list it anyway. I have also looked at the add for Autens Brittney's and they are beautiful dogs. What is the difference between a hunting dog and a trial breed dog? What is the difference between a French Brittany and an American Brittany? I have done a lot of reading so far mostly on the web but I can see that I have not even put a dent in the information available. Do you have a book you recommend? 

Thank you for the reply and I am getting more excited the more we talk about it.


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## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Bonz 54 said:


> KC,
> 
> Welcome to the Forum and to the wonderful world of Brittanys. (I bred Brittanys for 30 years, but have Pointers now). I feel I should tell you that Brittanys haven't been called Spaniel since 1980. That's when the members of the American Brittany Club voted and approved the dropping of Spaniel from the name. The use of Spaniel in searches could lead you to the French bred Brittanys which is a very different dog. Brittanys have the most color variety of ANY AKC recognized breed, with 10 possible varieties. If you plan to just hunt your Brit I would suggest buying it from a breeder that hunts. A trial bred Brittany is going to be just as capable of competing with any long tail and may not be what you are looking for. There are several Breeders in Michigan and some on these boards. The ones I consistantly recommend is Ron and Carol Auten in Oxford, MI. I know what they have, what they breed for, and I am confident they can supply you with a pup to fit your needs. Good Luck and have fun. FRANK


Also, spaniels are flushing dogs and Brits are pointers. Have you had a chance to hunt over each type of dog ie. flusher vs pointer?


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Welcome to the forum. Bonz 54 has given good advice above.

We ran and hunted American Brits all over the country for many years. IME they are the ideal first pointing dog. A well bred Britt will point early, retrieve naturally and handle kindly. The Autens are well known for producing typy Britts with lots of natural ability. But there are many good breeders in the Midwest too. The hottest field trial breedings may produce dogs with too much run for comfortable hunting on foot.

A good book would be Delmar Smith's (by Tarrant) Classic "Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog". I have no experience with French Britts but the gene pool is much smaller.

NB


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Biggest difference you will notice from a trial line vs hunting line may be the dogs range; with the hunting stock hunting a bit closer.

Ive found my Brittany to be a great hunter, companion and indoor home pet. He does have several of Auten's in his pedigree.

Bob


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Rugergundog said:


> Biggest difference you will notice from a trial line vs hunting line may be the dogs range; with the hunting stock hunting a bit closer.
> 
> Ive found my Brittany to be a great hunter, companion and indoor home pet. He does have several of Auten's in his pedigree.
> 
> Bob


I'm betting the dual dogs are also a little calmer. Doesn't pay to have a wiggly dog on the bench...


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

My Britt has pretty extensive trial blood and he is pretty calm, very well mannered in the home.


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

KCRuger said:


> Frank
> 
> Thank you for the information. I had read that they dropped the Spaniel part but figured I would list it anyway. I have also looked at the add for Autens Brittney's and they are beautiful dogs. What is the difference between a hunting dog and a trial breed dog? What is the difference between a French Brittany and an American Brittany? I have done a lot of reading so far mostly on the web but I can see that I have not even put a dent in the information available. Do you have a book you recommend?
> 
> Thank you for the reply and I am getting more excited the more we talk about it.



I have seen haps dog run he is a very nice dog. if u want a dog that hunts in gun range ( don't know why anyone would want a pointer to hunt in gun range that's what flushers are for ) then he may not be the dog for u. although u can always bring their range in but can't extend it. he is a very good bird dog and u won't be disappointed

that dog is impressive even for a Brittany haha


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

You will be very pleased with a Brit from spice rum. Hap has been in the game for a long time. I have known his dogs for 15 years and the ones I walked behind last year at highland were nice foot hunting dogs with style. 
John and tara at variety farms in hartland have a nice dog they call Alvin
they may be breeding with.
Also try bob bricker in Clifford, dogwood kennels I think. Bobs been doing Brits for a long time too and has nice dogs


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## HotStick (Jun 20, 2008)

KC, I know most of these breeders talked about in this thread. I don't think Ron Auten is breeding anymore. If you want to drop me an email, I think I may be able to help you out. ...... Now I have to see if I included my email address in my profile


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## Bonz 54 (Apr 17, 2005)

KC,

Sorry I took so long getting back to you. I've been up to my **** in snow removal (like everyone else). The difference in French and American bred, is that the French do not penilize for having black noses or black in their coat (in French events). They cannot compete in AKC Bench events. The French also seem to handle and train slightly different than American bred dogs. I would stay away from Field Trail stock (if you can or focus on Dual purpose dogs, Bench and Field) for the big run. Some people (like Chewy above) want a BIG going dog and I couldn't disagree more with the flusher/pointer comparison. I am currently running two EP's out of Grouse hunting stock that hunt to the gun. Which is exactly what I want. I hunt pointing dogs and want to watch them work. Otherwise, you are just going for a walk in the woods and you can do that without a monthly dog food bill. 

As I said earlier, there are MANY Brittany breeders in Michigan. If Ron and Carol are not breeding anymore I have not heard. They are running an ad in the M-S classifieds (or were). If you have any questions feel free to P/M me. Good Luck. FRANK

BTW, the Delmar Smith book is very good.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Bonz 54 said:


> KC,
> 
> Welcome to the Forum and to the wonderful world of Brittanys. (I bred Brittanys for 30 years, but have Pointers now). I feel I should tell you that Brittanys haven't been called Spaniel since 1980. That's when the members of the American Brittany Club voted and approved the dropping of Spaniel from the name. The use of Spaniel in searches could lead you to the French bred Brittanys which is a very different dog. Brittanys have the most color variety of ANY AKC recognized breed, with 10 possible varieties. If you plan to just hunt your Brit I would suggest buying it from a breeder that hunts. A trial bred Brittany is going to be just as capable of competing with any long tail and may not be what you are looking for. There are several Breeders in Michigan and some on these boards. The ones I consistantly recommend is Ron and Carol Auten in Oxford, MI. I know what they have, what they breed for, and I am confident they can supply you with a pup to fit your needs. Good Luck and have fun. FRANK


 This trial dog versus hunting dog issue is argued on this and every other forum going. 99 percent of the hunting dogs out there have trial bloodlines in their make up. 
Been training dogs for the public for twenty years, I can't say as I have ever seen a dog that could not be hunted off of foot. That is both hunting and trial dogs.Closer working is simple a matter of training not breeding. As the old saying goes "you can always reel them in but ya can't push them out".Breed for all the run you can get and train for range.TRAIN for range.Run is/equals desire. Desire is what produces birds.Be them trial or hunting dogs.
Some of the worst examples of dogs I have delt with over the years have come from lines with no or very little trial bloodlines in them. They lack in many areas but the biggest fault was almost always very little drive. 
As far as Haps britts go they are top notch dogs. If I am not mistaken they also carry some of the Auten bloodlines . Ron Autens dogs which all go back to trial bloodlines are also top notch dogs I have broke dogs fom both lines and would recommend either. For both hunting and trialing.

Good luck hope ya get a good one.


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## Bonz 54 (Apr 17, 2005)

Crosswinds, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I've been into pointing breeds for going on 36 years and have seen it time and again. A hunter buys a pup for trial campaigned parents and is very unhappy with the results. A dog from All Age competing parents is not going to make a good foot handling companion for the general hunting public. FRANK


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## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Bonz 54 said:


> Crosswinds, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I've been into pointing breeds for going on 36 years and have seen it time and again. A hunter buys a pup for trial campaigned parents and is very unhappy with the results. A dog from All Age competing parents is not going to make a good foot handling companion for the general hunting public. FRANK


 
I just measured some of the trial grounds that we run. According to Google Earth, Nick Miller's A field is about 610 yards long. I have had Hawkeye burn to the back of the field right off the line and stick birds in the farthest corner on several occasions. His range is pretty big on those fields. However, he know the difference (after some _training_) not to do that in the grouse woods. Most, if not all, of my hunting buddies own trial bred dogs. None are these run away hunt-for-themselves bird dogs. It all about the training. Sheet in, sheet out. 

Even my young Danner dog will do the same thing as Hawkeye, but about 10 times faster........


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

Bonz 54 said:


> KC,
> 
> Sorry I took so long getting back to you. I've been up to my **** in snow removal (like everyone else). The difference in French and American bred, is that the French do not penilize for having black noses or black in their coat (in French events). They cannot compete in AKC Bench events. The French also seem to handle and train slightly different than American bred dogs. I would stay away from Field Trail stock (if you can or focus on Dual purpose dogs, Bench and Field) for the big run. Some people (like Chewy above) want a BIG going dog and I couldn't disagree more with the flusher/pointer comparison. I am currently running two EP's out of Grouse hunting stock that hunt to the gun. Which is exactly what I want. I hunt pointing dogs and want to watch them work. Otherwise, you are just going for a walk in the woods and you can do that without a monthly dog food bill.
> 
> ...



well I can't disagree more. I think what your saying is most people want s dog they can hunt with right out the box. that means they don't want it to run so if it bumps a bird they can shoot it. 

i would think a flushing dog is more effective than those bootlicker dogs a pointing dog should be bold not afraid to get out and search for birds. when he finds one he points and waits for the handler 

If u encounter spooky birds wether out west in the woods or down south. a larger ranging dog will equal more birds in the bag. birds aren't going to sit tight while u stomp through the terrain and your dog 20 yards in front of u running back and forth. 

as crosswind said a close working dog generally doesn't have the drive. hunting behind a dog without drive makes me sick to my stomach. 

you dont bring a toy poodle to a dog fight.


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## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

I got a big runner and a closer working dog. I don't know why the OP wants a closer working dog; but for me I enjoy seeing the dog work, this said if i had my druthers for enjoyment of the total hunt i would have my bigger runner work more like my closer working dog.........but my bigger runner has been locating more birds so I enjoy having one of each.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm not going to argue either side, but I think this quote is appropriate now.

"Every breeding program should include the complete dog. By the complete dog I mean not only his performance, and his personality and his disposition but his confirmation as well. It is such a mistake to breed for special qualities. There seems to be a great fad for the running dog now. I think it&#8217;s a manifestation of the macho syndrome practiced by the young Turks, &#8220;my dog can run further than your dog.&#8221; This doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense to me&#8212;to sacrifice these other great qualities for range alone. Confirmation and hunting ability, pointing instinct&#8212;all these great things are being sacrificed for a dog that can run the furthest. This is what happened to our show dogs who bred only for confirmation or coat alone. If the dog is bred properly with a full amount of intelligence, he can be trained to run either a shooting dog race or all-age race. "

Robert G. Wehle
http://www.elhewpuppies.com/news/bob-wehle-breeding-bird-dogs/


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## slammer (Feb 21, 2006)

That message can be taken way out of context if the reader doesn't know that they are reading a quote from a guy that bred field trial dogs.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I'm not going to argue either side, but I think this quote is appropriate now.
> 
> "Every breeding program should include the complete dog. By the complete dog I mean not only his performance, and his personality and his disposition but his confirmation as well. It is such a mistake to breed for special qualities. There seems to be a great fad for the running dog now. I think its a manifestation of the macho syndrome practiced by the young Turks, my dog can run further than your dog. This doesnt make a lot of sense to meto sacrifice these other great qualities for range alone. Confirmation and hunting ability, pointing instinctall these great things are being sacrificed for a dog that can run the furthest. This is what happened to our show dogs who bred only for confirmation or coat alone. If the dog is bred properly with a full amount of intelligence, he can be trained to run either a shooting dog race or all-age race. " Shooting dog or all age. Neither of those are even remotely related to close working dogs.
> you are quoting a man that made a ton of money selling field trial dogs. His culls (the ones that wouldn't run or lacked in one area or another) that he talks about in his book were often sold to Joe Hunter. At outrageous prices.LOL I have had the displeasure of working with some of his rejects/culls that hunters had bought straight from him.But I have also had the pleasure of working with some excellant dogs from his kennel and bloodlines also.
> ...


 ...


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Bonz 54 said:


> Crosswinds, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I've been into pointing breeds for going on 36 years and have seen it time and again. A hunter buys a pup for trial campaigned parents and is very unhappy with the results. A dog from All Age competing parents is not going to make a good foot handling companion for the general hunting public. FRANK


 I don't doubt that one bit Frank, I have seen it also. BUT every time I have seen it, it was due to the person not getting the help he needed to train/break the dog. Some how it is always blamed on the dog and never the trainer or training.
So it seems the alternatve is to go with what many refer to as close working out of hunting dog lines. So often though the reality of those type of dogs is they don't have the fortitude/will/drive/want to, bust there hindends to find birds. Sure they can point birds if and when the happen across one, but that is hard to do with the hunter tromping around right behind the dog. the bird dog will find allot more birds with you, the hunter creating a ton of noise going through the woods or field.The key to the dog is he has to have had the right kind and enough training to remain honest on his birds while he waits for you to come and flush his bird. If he is not honest it is the owners fault not the dogs. If I have a dog that is busting birds, that falls directly on me and my training or lack of training.
Another reason that folks opt for the close working pointing dog is they still get to shoot at all mistakes/wild flushes/bumped or walked up birds.Fido is right there in front of him at all times, the problem is he just don't get many pointed.LOL. Hey to each his own, I guess.
To me the key to all has to start with a well trained dog.But give me one that puts his heart and soul into producing birds, and the physical abilities and want, to get the job done no matter what the cost. The rest we have to teach them.


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## HotStick (Jun 20, 2008)

Bonz ... I was told Ron doesn't breed anymore because he wants to travel. I heard from Ron about 3 or 4 weeks ago and low and behold he WAS traveling at the time. However I'm not sure. I'll ask him the next time I see him. I believe he hangs out with Hap, so maybe they help each other out. I guess I'll have to ask. .....


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## KCRuger (Oct 18, 2010)

WOW guys I want to say thank you all for the great information and opinions. This has given me a lot to think about. What it looks like to me is I cant go wrong with either breeder so I guess we will see who has new pups when I am ready. It will be a month or two before I am ready to do this but I am looking forward to finally having a good hunting dog of my own. Please keep the information coming. This is truly great stuff. I also want to thank everyone for the warm welcome. It would be a lot of fun once I get up and running and my dog a little time in the field to hook up and run some birds with the members of this fine group.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Chewy, I don't want to hi-jack this thread. So I will offer some comments below and you would like to debate them, please start a new thread.



chewy said:


> i would think a flushing dog is more effective than those bootlicker dogs a pointing dog should be bold not afraid to get out and search for birds. when he finds one he points and waits for the handler


I agree with this statement, IMO if you are looking for a "gun range" pointing dog then you will be better served with a flushing dog. Now if you want a closer working pointing breed that ranges in that 50-80 yard swatch - then I think they can be just as effective as any of the other breeds that are given proper exposure.



> If u encounter spooky birds wether out west in the woods or down south. a larger ranging dog will equal more birds in the bag. birds aren't going to sit tight while u stomp through the terrain and your dog 20 yards in front of u running back and forth.


OK, this is where I have a real problem, because IMO it could not be further from the truth. I am not saying that big running dogs will not produce spooky birds, but a close working dog will produce just as many in all pheasant (west) and great lakes ruffed grouse situations IME. This past October in the MI grouse woods should serve as an example. Hot and Dry woods were not well suited to grouse holding for limb finds while hunters huffed, puffed, and blew the woods down on they way to a point. In the mean time I know a guy with a flushing dog getting plenty of dog work and killing lots of birds during that time period.

Putting birds in the bag has more to do with the guy driving the truck than the dog style, breed, you put on the ground. 

I would agree a big running dog to be far superior on Prarrie Grouse and Bobwhites then a close working dog.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> Chewy, I don't want to hi-jack this thread. So I will offer some comments below and you would like to debate them, please start a new thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Fritz I wont disagree with your opinion of the dog that operates in the 50 to 80 yrd range. That gets him out away from the hunter just enough to keep the noise down.

Also, I think that when a big running dog is mentioned it leads most to think of a dog that is running at full speed busting through cover 400 yrd out. Enough to scare most hunters. We have all seen our buddies out there with their half broke pointing dog that is totally out of control running up birds and thinking, man I don't ever want to be in that position.:lol: And then the guy is yelling and screaming at the dog, laying on the shock collar.Again, and I know you know this, but I will say for the sake of the new dog owners, when you see that going on, it is not that big running dogs fault. Its the guy doing all the yelling and screaming. He did NOT do his training job. They don't come out of momma pointing and holding birds very often, most have to have some help somewhere along the line.
Big running would probably be better described as big ranging, just because a dog is 400 yrds out does not mean he is going wide open and busting through covers.he may only be going half speed and he should be slowing down to check the right/likely covers.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

crosswind said:


> Fritz I wont disagree with your opinion of the dog that operates in the 50 to 80 yrd range. That gets him out away from the hunter just enough to the noise down.


OK 



> Also, I think that when a big running dog is mentioned it leads most to think of a dog that is running at full speed busting through cover 400 yrd out.


I don't feel that way, I think of a big going dog in MI is a 150-250 yard dog and out on the prarrie depending on species bigger. (please note I have not hunted the western States behind a "big going dog")




> Enough to scare most hunters. We have all seen our buddies out there with thier half broke pointing dog that is totally out of control running up birds and thinking, man I don't ever want to be in that position.:lol: And then the guy is yelling and screaming at the dog, laying on the shock collar.Again, and I know you know this, but I will say for the sake of the new dog owners, when you see that going on, it is not that big running dogs fault. Its the guy doing all the yelling and screaming. He did NOT do his training job. They don't come out of momma pointing and holding birds very often, most have to have some help somewhere along the line.


I have to agree with you Scott. Many times why I say it has as much to do with the guy driving the truck as the style of the dog.



> Big running would probably be better discribed as big ranging, just because a dog is 400 yrds out does mean he is going wide open and busting through covers.he may only be going half speed and he should be slowing down to check the right/likely covers.


I agree again. 

Dam - getting along with a bobtail guy. What has this world come too!


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I'm not going to argue either side, but I think this quote is appropriate now.
> 
> "Every breeding program should include the complete dog. By the complete dog I mean not only his performance, and his personality and his disposition but his confirmation as well. It is such a mistake to breed for special qualities. There seems to be a great fad for the running dog now. I think its a manifestation of the macho syndrome practiced by the young Turks, my dog can run further than your dog. This doesnt make a lot of sense to meto sacrifice these other great qualities for range alone. Confirmation and hunting ability, pointing instinctall these great things are being sacrificed for a dog that can run the furthest. This is what happened to our show dogs who bred only for confirmation or coat alone. If the dog is bred properly with a full amount of intelligence, he can be trained to run either a shooting dog race or all-age race. "
> 
> ...



define shooting dog 

a shooting dog in horseback is a big running dog by many peoples standards. not as big as all age but much bigger than gundog.


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2006)

Other guys can correct me if wrong, but with my loudest bell per Garmin, 200 yds on a silent day in the woods is essentially out of bell range. Depending on the cover, that is more than enough dog to be very productive in any decent cover around, unless as Fritz says, you pick a crappy cover and the dog needs to get out further to find good cover on its own. You might also be surprised if you take any of these "large ranging" field trial dogs out of a trial, and put them on the ground with a vest on and shotgun in hand, what a different animal they can be, they're not dumb, they are competitive, and even the largest going animal in a trial can turn into a gentlemans gun dog when taken out of a competition and taken on a hunt.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

crosswind said:


> Also, I think that when a big running dog is mentioned it leads most to think of a dog that is running at full speed busting through cover 400 yrd out. Enough to scare most hunters. We have all seen our buddies out there with thier half broke pointing dog that is totally out of control running up birds and thinking, man I don't ever want to be in that position.:lol: And then the guy is yelling and screaming at the dog, laying on the shock collar.Again, and I know you know this, but I will say for the sake of the new dog owners, when you see that going on, it is not that big running dogs fault. Its the guy doing all the yelling and screaming. He did NOT do his training job. They don't come out of momma pointing and holding birds very often, most have to have some help somewhere along the line.
> Big running would probably be better discribed as big ranging, just because a dog is 400 yrds out does mean he is going wide open and busting through covers.he may only be going half speed and he should be slowing down to check the right/likely covers.


I think you're right.

However I think the thing a beginning buyer should consider is the level of work involved with a bigger running dog to make it truly effective. This doesn't mean a 50-150 yard dog shouldn't be trained to the same level, but I think it's fair to say that some things can be allowed to slide with the closer worker.

Put another way, it's one thing to have a dog on point 100 yards out, see it creep, and be able to tell the dog "whoa" to get it to stop. HOWEVER, it's quite another to have a dog that can stand statue still on point for several minutes 400 yards out. There is no room for error there.

Dog #1 can be trained by a do-it-yourselfer if they're willing to put in a little work and if it isn't perfect it's not quite the end of the world as long as the dog understands and obeys "whoa." Dog #2 can also be trained by a do-it-yourselfer as well, however, I think that most folks simply don't have the time and resources to do it right and ultimately need the help of a pro.

Maybe you'll crucify me for that view, but that's how I see it.

So to the OP, it's really all in what you want out of the dog and what you want to put into it if you ask me. There's nothing wrong with a bigger running dog, but I would argue that dog will require a much higher degree of training to be truly effective for you.

Just something to consider from one hunter to another.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> define shooting dog
> 
> a shooting dog in horseback is a big running dog by many peoples standards. not as big as all age but much bigger than gundog.


My point in posting that was to point out that there is more to consider when buying a good pointing dog than range.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Other guys can correct me if wrong, but with my loudest bell per Garmin, 200 yds on a silent day in the woods is essentially out of bell range. Depending on the cover, that is more than enough dog to be very productive in any decent cover around, unless as Fritz says, you pick a crappy cover and the dog needs to get out further to find good cover on its own. You might also be surprised if you take any of these "large ranging" field trial dogs out of a trial, and put them on the ground with a vest on and shotgun in hand, what a different animal they can be, they're not dumb, they are competitive, and even the largest going animal in a trial can turn into a gentlemans gun dog when taken out of a competition and taken on a hunt.


Right-on Johnathan--with a competive dog, things change in hurry with horses, a brace mate and spectators on the scene. I'd also like to add that a good percentage of dogs out of high-powered litters don't make the cut because they simply don't have the extreme desire/run needed to win--the norm is more the opposite. 
Personally, a close working pointing dog drives me completely bonkers! I think it's counter-productive to have a pointing breed that does roughly the same thing that a flusher does (or the hunter by himself).
That said, with range comes responsibility. Bigger running dogs must also handle reasonably well without a ton of coercion, and must also competently handle their birds when you are way out of sight.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

Made a mistake in my wording earlier today.

Originally Posted by *crosswind*  
_ Also, I think that when a big running dog is mentioned it leads most to think of a dog that is running at full speed busting through cover 400 yrd out. Enough to scare most hunters. We have all seen our buddies out there with thier half broke pointing dog that is totally out of control running up birds and thinking, man I don't ever want to be in that position.:lol: And then the guy is yelling and screaming at the dog, laying on the shock collar.Again, and I know you know this, but I will say for the sake of the new dog owners, when you see that going on, it is not that big running dogs fault. Its the guy doing all the yelling and screaming. He did NOT do his training job. They don't come out of momma pointing and holding birds very often, most have to have some help somewhere along the line.
Big running would probably be better described as big ranging, just because a dog is 400 yrds out does not mean he is going wide open and busting through covers.he may only be going half speed and he should be slowing down to check the right/likely covers._

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Brittany Spaniel Questions - Page 2 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367308&page=2#ixzz1D2LRu8uN​


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

FindTheBird said:


> Right-on Johnathan--with a competive dog, things change in hurry with horses, a brace mate and spectators on the scene. I'd also like to add that a good percentage of dogs out of high-powered litters don't make the cut because they simply don't have the extreme desire/run needed to win--the norm is more the opposite.
> Personally, a close working pointing dog drives me completely bonkers! I think it's counter-productive to have a pointing breed that does roughly the same thing that a flusher does (or the hunter by himself).
> That said, with range comes responsibility. Bigger running dogs must also handle reasonably well without a ton of coercion, and must also competently handle their birds when you are way out of sight.


 Couldn't agree more, both posts.It all goes back to training.He should stand his birds no matter what the situation.I don't care if he is 200 yrds out and the birds walks under his nose. If he does not.You have not prepared him enough.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

This is a refreshing deviation from the notion of "run off trial dogs" that don't lend themselves well to the foot hunter who is looking for a gun dog.


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## crosswind (Sep 1, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> I think you're right.
> 
> However I think the thing a beginning buyer should consider is the level of work involved with a bigger running dog to make it truly effective. This doesn't mean a 50-150 yard dog shouldn't be trained to the same level, but I think it's fair to say that some things can be allowed to slide with the closer worker.
> Granted, you will usually have to invest more time getting a trial bred dog broke and it will probably be a rougher row to hoe.The end result though is you have much more bird dog more talent, desire and drive. Three key ingredients to producing birds for the gun.
> ...


...


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

My guess is MOST people do very little training, dislike training, do not have the access to training grounds, and are not going to pay for it.
They just want to take a dog hunting.
A trial bred dog is not for them.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

2ESRGR8 said:


> My guess is MOST people do very little training, dislike training, do not have the access to training grounds, and are not going to pay for it.
> They just want to take a dog hunting.
> A trial bred dog is not for them.


2+ 

And they dont have the birds either, most of the year.

And that _does not_ describe most of the regulars on this board or any other bird dog board.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard various pointing dog hunters proudly proclaim "my dog will point, back and _always hunt within gun range"_

Just sayin.........

NB


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## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

WestCoastHunter said:


> However I think the thing a beginning buyer should consider is the level of work involved with a bigger running dog to make it truly effective.


Yup. (kinda...)
The first dog I bought was a trial bred setter. I had a rocky first two years with him. Took a lot of time and effort on my part and help from my breeder. I was committed and the dog has turned out very well. I am a better hunter and trainer because of this dog. I learned a lot on the fly, and the dogs I own in the future are better off from the mistakes I made (and learned from) the first time around. It worked out for me, but someone who didn't have the time and patience may have been more inclined to throw in the towel? 



2ESRGR8 said:


> My guess is MOST people do very little training, dislike training, do not have the access to training grounds, and are not going to pay for it.
> They just want to take a dog hunting.
> A trial bred dog is not for them.


That is my general feeling, as well.

​


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## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

I think should be, can you get hooked on training like you got hooked on bird hunting? I confess, I am hooked. I got to those meetings (field trials) for support one a month..

I know many people here on this board, myself included, enjoy working with the dog off season, in the yard, in the woods with no gun. As soon as we blow snow out of the driveway again, we will be working in the driveway on our whoa with the puppy.

Do you have the time? Being a new person to training the bird dog, do you have, or ever had a well trained dog, period? Did you get the satisfaction of the finished product? We all love to walk behind the well trained dog. Be honest with yourself- this is going to be a committment no matter what you chose. And if you are not sure, don't feel bad. There was a point in my life I could not have put the time into the dog like I can now. 

Or- it seems that there are enough started dogs out there. Just another option for the first timer......you can bond with a started dog just as well as the puppy and skip some of the puppy stuff. You will still have some tweaking to do with the started dog, but you can be off and running by fall. The bonding comes with the time that is spent together, not the age of the dog.

There. Now I have made things worse. :lol:


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## chewy (Mar 27, 2006)

what is everyones definition of a close working dog 

mine is 25 yards or less. 

this may help to know. sounds like people think 200 yards is big running. I don't consider that large range if they Are in a field. a smart dog should adjust his range to the cover.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

chewy said:


> well I don't think that was bob wehle point in the quotation u used. no way did he say a 25 yard dig can be An all age dog. he would have buried one of those in his pet cemetery out back.


And I think you're right.


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