# What to do with this forum



## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

> If it's not about the doe numbers, why do you so proudly display them as your signature?


it is about doe numbers, in my area. it's also about the amount of bucks getting killed not only around my property but everywhere else in the state. just trying to offset the overharvest of bucks.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> So now that there are a lot of hurt feeling and bruised egos, who is going to be the first one to stick out their hand and try to make this forum a place that welcomes all members and their questions?


That was the intention of this thread. 

Neal


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

I have read and commented on this stuff and have been lashed at before. I exlpained that I am a fence sitter. But, I do know which side of the fence I will go if someone tries to "force feed me". With much time and the repeated questions and attitudes, I can see how it can be frustrating. Thus the temptation to lash out, but remember newbies and lurkers may also be on the fence. 

I respect everyones opinion, for I have learned that there is vast amounts of knowledgable people. I have reconsidered (maybe even changed) my decision several times based on insight I have recieved from people here and attitude might've helped.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Now that was fun.
My intentions were never to question your motives. I only stated a few thoughts others may have on this concept. All of you know that I have practiced QDM for over 10 years. People will ask questions and when they feel like their head is pounded into the pavement, QDM doesn't come across as a positive thing, especially with the decline of deer in certain areas. You guys have a major job on your hands convincing unsuccessful hunters that they should pass on a buck or kill more does.

Let's see. Who's next.... 

Any Flydunkers want to go a few rounds?


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## The Mutt (Jan 6, 2002)

*



Go ahead, knock the chip off and Ill show you

Click to expand...

 *
Have any of you guys met Jamie? Cripes I can't even REACH the chip on his shoulder little lone knock it off.  

Just trying to lighten things up a bit.

QDM is a tough subject with a bazillion opinions and is always going to have some heated discussions. I say keep the forum and allow the heat but delete ANY disrespectful posts from either side. I've had some pretty heated ummmmmm...discussions with Jamie on another site. Once we had a chance to sit down for dinner with just a short chance to get to know eachother that changed. After that dinner our level of respect for eachother went up quite a bit. He's still wrong but we respect each other more now.  Maybe you should be required to attend a Meet n Greet before posting on the QDM forum.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Thanks Mutt, now I'm scared


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

come on Mutt, you just can't admit when i'm right! 

it has been said before, the only ones not complaing are the ones practicing QDM 

not that EVERYONE is complaining.

i have said this before as well, i don't think broad scale QDM regulations would effect my hunting all that much, if i was a state land hunter and saw how good it was on private land, i would be furious. that is why i would like to see QDM type reg's in place, to try and improve hunting on state and federal lands.

sometimes i wonder why i bother debating a subject that in all reality would never effect me and benefit so many others. hell current management practices just make my property a better place to hunt. 

to each his own.

don't insult my beliefs and i won't insult yours.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Serial Fish Killer _
> *No comment.... *


in the hopes of civility 

No comment....


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## leon (Jan 23, 2000)

This is a good forum, one of my favorites. I won't want to see it go away. I jump in and out of it periodically. Sometimes I get my head smacked and sometimes I might throw a punch or two back. Mainly, however, I think we have some good exchanges.

The idea of a pro QDM and con QDM forum does have some appeal. Good luck to all in the next month and keep an eye on that Farm Bureau proposal.

Leon  


Personal buck kill: 1 nine pointer, 180 lb 3.5 year old
Personal doe kill: Got the area matriarch (next to no teeth) 
Number of bucks passed up: two dozen
A perfect deer season for a QDM supporter


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Serial Fish Killer _
> *
> 
> QHM
> ...



SFK, you plannin' on managing some cattle, them bulls grow some good 'horns'.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Sounds good Ray.....sorry i didn't get back with on your PM, if I don't get a chance to reply tonight, I'll catch you tomorrow.

Neal


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Sorry I've been off of this thread for a few days. Been out chasing ducks for the last few times of the season. But I've read this thread with interest.



> _Originally posted by jamie7117 _
> *to each his own *


Now you've got it Jamie! To each his own. As I have admitted before, you and some of the other QDM supporters on this thread have educated me, and even changed my thoughts on shooting does and some other issues related to QDM. Jamie, you've gone to great lengths to post copies of articles from various sources on various issues, such as the Pennsylvania ones, and I believe you did it in an attempt to educate. Some would say you were simply trying to coerce others into your way of thinking. Even if that were the case, you aren't forcing anyone to read it! Like they say folks CHANGE THE CHANNEL! But no one is going to convince me that MANDATORY, across the board, state, county, or township wide point restrictions is a good thing. So let's face it, we agree to disagree on that. Not arguing, just stating fact. Some of the recent posts about hunters who are limited to hunting only state land are very valid arguments, which again support my thoughts that mandatory, wide spread antler restrictions are in my opinion not the way to go.

Because of the fact that I have been educated on some issues on this thread, and have had MUCH MORE good interaction than bad, I would like the thread to continue. My two cents.


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## just ducky (Aug 23, 2002)

Guys,
This was posted on my favorite site, the waterfowlers site, by one of our regulars there "Safety Man". I read this post today, and in light of all of the bickering lately on the QDM site, I think we should all read it. It's kind of long, and even though it is kind of tailored to duck hunters, it's very appropriate because as many of us said on this site, we are all hunters......we just have different beliefs. After all, this is a democracy that supports individual thinking, right? Read this and see if it doesn't change your outlook on ideas that differ from yours. As I said before, the QDM thread should continue. 

*Why I Hunt* 
I hunt because my father hunted, and he took me with him, and so we built a bond that I still cherish. And because his father hunted, and his father's father, and all of the fathers in my line and yours, as far back as those fathers who invented spears and axes and recorded their adventures with pictures on the walls of caves.

I hunt because I am convinced, as many anthropologists argue, that prehistoric man was a hunter before he was a farmer, and because the genetic drive remains too powerful for me to resist. I do not need to hunt to eat, but I need to hunt to be fully who I am.

I hunt because it links me with the boy I used to be and with the young man my father was then.

I hunt because I see myself as I used to be in the faces of my sons, with all of the excitement and wonder and anticipation of the chase in their eyes.

I hunt because my sons are still young, and I believe one day spent in the marsh or forest or swamp with my boys is worth 3 days spent anywhere else, and because they, too, will become grown men entirely too soon.

I hunt because of the ghosts of beloved companions that prance through the woods and swim through the marshes, wagging their tails and snuffling, pointing and retrieving fallen game to my hand. And because Ginger, my young Yellow Lab, loves to hunt more than she loves to eat. And because hunting dogs make the wisest friends: They are smarter in many ways than I am, and they teach me things I otherwise would not understand.

I hunt because the goldenrod and the ferns glisten when the early-morning October sun melts the frost from the fields, and because native brook trout spawn in hidden autumn streams, and because Michigan uplands glow crimson and orange and gold in the season of bird hunting.

I hunt because if I didn't, I would have seen fewer eagles and ospreys, minks and beavers, foxes and bears, deer and elk, and although I do not happen to hunt all of these creatures, I do love to enter into their world and spy on them.

I hunt for the whistle of a woodcock's wings and the sudden explosion of a ruffed grouse's flush, for the tinkle of a dog's bell and for the sudden silence when she locks on point, for my partner's cry of "BIRD!" when he kicks one up. 

I hunt for the distant drumming of a grouse, for the high predatory cry of a redtail hawk, for the angry chatter of a squirrel when you invade his weald, for the quiet gurgle of a deep-woods trout stream, for the whistle of a ducks wings, for the sibilant soughing of the breeze in the pine trees. 

I hunt for the snoring of my companion in a one-room cabin, and for the soothing patter of an autumn rainstorm on a tin roof.

I hunt for the aroma the marsh gives up when wading to place decoys releases the trapped swamp gases from the soft marsh bottom, for the sweet fragrance of decaying leaves in the woodlands, for the whiff of spent powder after the shot, for the perfume of pine trees so laden with fresh snow their boughs bend to the point of oblivion.

I hunt for the crunch of freshly fallen leaves beneath my feet, for the creaking of deep fresh snow as I walk through it, for the humbling snap of a twig as I try to remain stealthy, and for the challenge of stepping through the unknown slough bottom loaded with muck and hidden logs and roots to set blocks.

I hunt for the gentle crunch of thin early ice breaking below the bow of my jon boat in the pre-dawn hours, and because the air is always crisper and the sounds always clearer on the marsh.

I hunt because it is never boring or disappointing to be out-of-doors without a purpose, even when no game is spotted, and because taking a walk in the woods without a purpose makes everything that happens feel random and accidental and unearned.

I hunt for the satisfying exhaustion after a long day in the woods, for the new stories that every day of hunting gives us, and for the soft snoring and dream-whimpering and twitching of the dog as she sleeps with her head resting on my lap as we drive home through the darkness.

I hunt because it reminds me that in nature there is a food chain where everything eats and is, in it's turn, eaten, where birth, survival, and reproduction give full meaning to life, where death is ever present, and where the only uncertainty is the time and manner of that death. Hunting reminds me that I am integrated into that cycle, not separate from or above it.

I hunt because it keeps my passions alive and my memories fresh and my senses alert even as my head grows gray, and because I am afraid that if I stopped hunting, I would instantly become an old man, and because I believe that as long as I hunt I will remain young.


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

I hope the forum stays as I have certainly have accessed plenty of knowledge and data resources in my relatively short time here, about a year or so. 

I do hate to wade through the BS / personal attack type posts try to get to a point at times though, many times there is no point at the end! I have tried to stay pretty open minded to all suggestions and hope I havent contributed too much to BS side of things.

I have noticed that most that oppose various forms of QDM do so primarily for what I will term personal reasons (I want to harvest any deer I choose within the regs, there are no doe in my area, state land vs private, etc), emotional reasons (cant eat antlers, discourage young / old hunters, etc.), or just plain tradition. Thats just fine and I respect that. 

The statement above was very general and only my opinion, not directed toward any one person or group of folks. 

However, you cannot ignore the growing body of evidence, through study after study after study, that the basic elements of QDM are not beneficial to the deer as well as all the other critters in the woods (herd and habitat mgmt, etc.). I have not seen any scientific data that any element of a QDM program, including antler point restrictions to protect young deer, is somehow detrimental. Antler points are always the contentious issue. If we had a balanced deer herd in terms of both age and sex structure, antlers would not be an issue. Seems to me that we have a ways to go to achieve that balance.

Will QDM work everywhere? Yestakes time, even on State land.

Im looking forward to the 2110 season. There will be some lean years and some good years in between Im sure.

Just occurred to me that when I heard a seatbelt law was going to be establish in Michigan years back, I started buckling up a year before to make it a habit. Guess Im on board with QDM because of the obvious benefits to wildlife, and I can see the mandatory version coming soon, starting a new habit early. 

Holy ToledoJust saw the SFK proposal for a the Stud-moderatorIm outta here!!

Seriously, Please be nice everyone, and think about the future, not just last weekend


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

i can honestly say that just ducky is just one of many examples of why this forum should remain. we have our differences and don't disagree on SOME things. but our disagreements, never went very far. his questions and concerns were genuine and there was a great deal of positive information shared from both sides of the issue.

i wish that everyone that came in here was the same way.

even though i still think he's wrong. 

as far as a co-moderator goes, whatever you think will help.

i think boyd is one of the most impartial people on the site and has never showed any favoritism towards any of us when we step over the line. i give him a lot of credit for puting up with some of the sh*t that gets thrown his way.


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## dieseldude (Oct 25, 2002)

just ducky,
very well written, i enjoyed your last post.
mike


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## Huntnut (Jan 21, 2000)

This forum is a riot.

I think it's funny as hell

I will never take cyberspace message-boards seriously, nor will they ever diminish my enthusiasm for wanting to deer hunt.

I think a deer camp with ALL of us in attendance would be the COOLEST deer camp EVER.

Hunt


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

if it was gone, what else would i do at work? work? work? what's that?

it's boring terrorizing the same people at work day after day, when i come here, you never know what your going to get! a real smörgåsbord of personalities to tweek! jk!


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

> _Originally posted by The Mutt _
> *
> Maybe you should be required to attend a Meet n Greet before posting on the QDM forum. *


 We meet quarterly at Jays in Clare. Last time you left before all the fun started.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

I'm hopin this forum will stay!

As this thread proves, a civil discouse can be had by this bunch, as diverse as we all are. I would agree that the good info and exchanges here far outweigh the bad.

I'd be happy with whatever changes of the rules the majority are happy with doing.
(Thats 50.1% not 66%)

Natty B.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Maybe we should practice "Quality Thread Managament" 

or "Quality Behavior Management"


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## Sarge (Apr 25, 2000)

I like the idea of SFK being co moderator. I just want privvy to the PM he sends the bad guys.

Don't want to receive one though thanks


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Mission Statement: 
The Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA) is a non-profit wildlife conservation organization dedicated to promoting sustainable, high quality white-tailed deer populations, wildlife habitats, and ethical hunting experiences through education, research, and management in partnership with hunters, landowners, natural resource professionals, and the public. 

QDMA Promotes:
-Safe and ethical hunting.
-Adherence to wildlife and trespass laws.
-Adequate harvests of adult does.
-Restraint in harvesting young bucks.
-Habitat maintenance and improvement
-Hunter involvement in education and management.
-Cooperation with wildlife biologists and enforcement officers.
-Education of hunters and non-hunters toward a better understanding of wildlife management.
-Stewardship and appreciation of all wildlife.


With this in mind, having a co-moderator that "opposes" Quality Deer Management would be precisely akin to having a PETA member co-moderate one of the hunting forums.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

I would strongly be opposed to SFK being a moderator of this forum.

Neal


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Neal _
> *I would strongly be opposed to SFK being a moderator of this forum.
> 
> Neal *


I agree!


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## Big Frank 25 (Feb 21, 2002)

SFK, I agree with you too! I just think it would cramp your stile.


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## jamie7117 (Aug 15, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Serial Fish Killer _
> *Being a moderator has nothing to do with the subject of the forum fellas, it's more about managing the mud slinging and making sure the rules of the site are followed. *


maybe you should convey that in some other forums




> _Originally posted by Serial Fish Killer _
> * I don't give a rip what people think *



join the club


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> I know SFK probably as well as anyone on this site and we are good friends so I am probably a little bias. Clay is an extremely bright educated person who has a little devil in him. He is also honest to a fault and as a sportsman one of most ethical I know.


I agree




> Hell he has been one of the most active members and has added much in the way of technical help and support and his threads on fly tying have been some of the best presented to date.


I agree

If I ever needed an expert engineer or manager or someone to advise me on any technical equipment I would not hesitate for a second to rely on him. More important to me though, is if I ever needed a friend, I know I wouldn't have to look over my shoulder to know he would be there.

I agree

I just don't think by, his previous posts, that he can be unbiased, toward QDM discussions. Just as I did not select the sound-off forum to Moderate when Steve asked which forums I would like to Moderate. I didn't feel i could be unbiased, well i could but, it would kill me.

Plus he couldn't give a rip what I think about him, why should you  

Neal


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Once in a position to monitor behavior and civility, even $teelieman could do it. Now would he be able to restore civility or stir it up even more is another question.

Clay could moderate any of these forums and approach it with whatever is required of him. This is not about Pro/con, it's about the equal treatment of all members, pro/con, young/old, informed/ignorant, ect.

That's where the problem lies in this forum. It's the "If you don't approve of QDM, don't come here attitude", that needs to be monitored. Members will ask questions. Hell, they may even question the entire concept and if it can't be explained or discussed in a civil manner "without locking horns", (3 one one side)  the thread needs to be closed.

No offense Boyd. You do a fabulous job, but just like myself, you can't be on here 24/7


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

jimbos, the poster formerly known as jimbos43 , has been added as an additional moderator here. With respect to QDM I would say he is a moderate. No offense to you Clay but I have had Jimbos in mind for this job for some time.


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Congrats Jimbos.

Now here's your first job assignment.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&threadid=27890
Keep an eye on that one.... LOL


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Great choice Steve.....congrats Jim. 

Neal


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## stoney (May 3, 2001)

I enjoy this forum very much and would hate to see it go.
Even with all the bias opinions (weather for or agaist QDM)
there is alot that can be learned here.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2002)

Help, i've been thrown to the wolves....seriously, we all want the samething basicly. We all just get a little riled up do to our passion for the outdoors....
I've learned a lot from these pro QDM'ers, even Jamie....lol.....i'm sure i'll learn more.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2002)

Those pictures Stelmon posted a few threads down of the St. Joe in Janurary look familar.....I think I remember being there.


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## rookie1 (Dec 7, 2001)

Chickler and squirell monkeys, very interesting trip.

Congrats Jimbos!


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## Benelli (Nov 8, 2001)

Hey, Congrats Jimbos.

SFK  No offense, but the term stud moderator as you proposed brought up some weird connotations in my mind.Im sure you would have been able to maintain your objectivity if given the task.


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## Jimbos (Nov 21, 2000)

Hey Benelli,,,,dude your one of the ones that gave me a appreciation of the benefits of QDM. You did it with your class, and patience.....Something I can be in short supply of at times. 


Plus I love your focus on habitat improvement, which is the biggest problem I.M.O.


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