# 2012 RGS Fun Dog Trial Circuit Schedule



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Well I believe this is the schedule for 2012 State of Michigan Ruffed Grouse Society Fun Dog Regional Trials will be held.

Please watch for individual chapters to post on specific trials, please watch http://www.ruffedgrousesociety.org/banquets_events to keep track of event fliers.

Must be a current RGS Member to compete; list of events as of right now:

*2012 Regional Trials Schedule*
Greater SE Michigan  March 17, 2012 (Colonial Farms, Chelsea, MI)
Kalamazoo  April 7th, 2012 (Rustic Ridge, Martin, MI)
Lakeshore  April 21, 2012 (Wings & Rings, Greater Grand Rapids Area)
Traverse City  May 6, 2012 (Thundering Aspens, Mesick, MI)
Gaylord- May 12th, 2012 (Tails a Waggin, Marion, MI)
Cadillac  June 2nd, 2012 (Location TBD) 
Lansing  September 8, 2012 (Mike LeMasters Farm, Jackson Area)
Petoskey- September 8th, 2012 (WyCamp, Cross Village MI)


Special thanks to BradU20 (Brad Utrup) who has taken over the last couple years as essentially the "RGS State Dog Trial Cordinator and Secretary."

We are doing our best to tweak the events to encourage participation and make expectations more clear.


----------



## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Fun Trial Guidelines​ Safety
Please keep this in mind throughout the day  Please Practice Safe Gun Handling.
Do not hesitate to call a safety if the bird flushers towards the gallery, judges, the other handler or a dog. Listen for the judges, who will call safety if the shot is not safe.

Running
Most trials run dogs in braces (two at a time) on the same course. 
Please be respectful of the other dog and handler. 

You may only shoot (2) birds



Your dog is only judged on two bird contacts
The judges may direct you to continue hunting for a 3rd bird if they did not have adequate opportunity to judge retrieving (due to a safety being called)
A missed bird is not a safety (it will hurt your dogs chances if you miss)
There is no incentive to rush through the course in a race to find all the birds. Again, please show respect for your brace mate.
 
 
Please collar/leash your dog if you think it may interfere with a bracemates retrieve

Judging
The judges will evaluate entries in the following categories:

*Response to Handler (Obedience)*
The dog needs to respond enthusiastically and quickly to the handlers commands.

*Ground Coverage *
The dog should cover ground efficiently and with purpose. 
It should utilize the best hunting pattern for the conditions presented and search out likely places where gamebirds inhabit. 

*Bird Finds*
Pointing dogs should locate birds from an appropriate distance and remain staunch on point.
Flushing dogs should accurately locate the bird and aggressively put it in the air.
Dogs do not need to remain steady after the bird takes flight, or the shot. There is no reward for steadiness after the shot. Handlers should do everything in their power to avoid brace mate interference. 

*Retrieves *
The dog should locate the downed bird quickly and accurately.
The dog should return the bird immediately to the handler and release the bird cleanly.


----------



## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

*Minimum Entry Requirements For RGS Fun Trials*

1. *Are all RGS chapters required to maintain the same standards for their events?*​ No, Chapters can have variations with trial rules and judging as long as the minimum entry requirements are met to send the top four gun dog placements to the Ruffed Grouse Societys Michigan Gun Dog of the Year Trial.​ 2. *Who is allowed to compete?* 
You must be a current RGS Member to be a handler or gunner. Participants can be signed up for active membership status the day of the trial. Youth 17 years of age and younger may handle a dog, but must have a designated adult gunner. 

3. *How many dogs can a participant register for a trial?* 
Only two dogs can be registered per person, per division (pointing & flushing). If the trial is not full, more then two dogs may be entered at the trial managers discretion. Only two dogs, per division, can qualify for the Gun Dog of the Year Trial.

4. *Can a dog place in more than one regional trial?* 
No, once a dog has placed in one of the top four placements at any trial, it cannot place again for that year. You may run your already qualified dog at other regional trials if room permits. The dog would be scored by the judges, but not used in the placements. All dogs that had placed in the previous years trials are again eligible to compete the following year. 

5. *What dogs would not be allowed to participate?* 
The following trial placements or titled gun dogs are prohibited from competing:
· Pointing/Flushing/Retrieving AKC & FDSB shooting dog placements or championships 
· NSTRA  titled dogs (dogs with points may compete until they reach a title)
· NAVHDA - Utility Prize 1
· UKC  HRCH, UH, CHF
· NAHRA  Senior 
· AKC  Master Hunter
· APLA Master/Grand Master
· GLSDA  Finished

6. *Can I use an electronic training collar at a trial?* 
No electronic training devices are allowed. 

7. *Can I use a bell, beeper collar or tracking collar?* 
Yes. No beeper/electronic collar combos are allowed. Collars must be functional. 

8. *What could I be disqualified for at a trial or future events?* 
Any participant that acts in an abusive manner toward his dog, a judge or another participant will be immediately disqualified and removed from the event. Any participant that shows unsafe gun conduct will be immediately disqualified and removed from the event. Any dog showing repeated aggressive behavior will be disqualified and removed from the field. 

9. Your gun may only be loaded with two shells.

*10. **All judges and trial managers decisions are FINAL.*


----------



## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

Fritz, do you think I should run the Border Collie as a flusher or a pointer. What's Hammer got the Bernie entered as? mac n


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Maximum 2 shells in the gun!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GamebirdPreserve (Nov 21, 2006)

Fritz, 

Thanks so much for taking the time to post all of the 2012 Fun Trial events as of now!


----------



## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

Cadillac will be at Tails a Waggin on June 2nd!!

And, thankfully, we got our birds secured. Whew.


----------



## Lloydboy (Jan 25, 2008)

The Petoskey Chapter is going to hold a second event as a fund raiser for the Drummer Fund on Sunday 9th. It will be a Gun Dog Challenge format with both a Flushing and Pointing Dog Divisions, 20 dog per division. Half of the entry fee will go towards the Drummer Fund! 

So you guys and gals can come up and run the RGS Trial on Saturday and then stay and run the Gun Dog Challenge event on Sunday!!! 

More details to come soon!


----------



## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

looks like the guys in the thumb better get ready to drive nothing close this year.


----------



## Legallyblonde (Dec 6, 2010)

Can you run as a handler with someone else as a gunner?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Legallyblonde said:


> Can you run as a handler with someone else as a gunner?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes you can
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Firemedic (Apr 5, 2005)

Maybe limit the gallery to 3-5 observers?


----------



## Lloydboy (Jan 25, 2008)

Firemedic said:


> Maybe limit the gallery to 3-5 observers?


No galleries... per RGS insurance...


----------



## Daveldman (Jun 6, 2010)

who is hosting GDOY this year?

If any fun trials are looking for a photographer, let me know. If I have the day free, I love chasing dogs with a camera.


----------



## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

Daveldman said:


> who is hosting GDOY this year?
> 
> If any fun trials are looking for a photographer, let me know. If I have the day free, I love chasing dogs with a camera.


 


your hired!!! would love to have you !


----------



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Daveldman said:


> who is hosting GDOY this year?
> 
> If any fun trials are looking for a photographer, let me know. If I have the day free, I love chasing dogs with a camera.


The lakeshore chapter is hosting it on Sunday Nov 25 at wings and rings in Zeeland.


----------



## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

no gallery sounds like the fun is getting pushed out my kid loved watching the dogs. To bad all the trails are 2 hrs from my house (not sure how that happened) but always need some one to tag along maybe just have to see how next year goes.


----------



## Daveldman (Jun 6, 2010)

I have never seen the gallery pose too much of a problem, as long as they stay back, and don't interfere. These are fun trials, and should be fun for everyone to attend.


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

As to gallery we don't mean no spectators just no gallery walking the coarse. As a guy who puts on of these on we need and want spectators. Both of the events that are ran in the greater grand rapids area are less then 5 minutes from the expressway and many hotels very close by. Both places this year we made sure where set up with great club houses that way the weather was bad you can get out of it, the cover is top notch and GREAT VIEWING areas. Both area's are less then 15 minutes from downtown GR so I hope to see high turn outs at both events
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

smokinbritts said:


> no gallery sounds like the fun is getting pushed out my kid loved watching the dogs. To bad all the trails are 2 hrs from my house (not sure how that happened) but always need some one to tag along maybe just have to see how next year goes.


Join your chapters board, committee, ask a bunch of questions, volunteer to chair a trial. Its that easu, secure grounds, birds, judges, a date. I'm happy to help.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

Ya when i was writing i was thinking the same thing kids are getting older. I had fun running last year but having to drive two hours to run this year makes it a little harder. They have a dinner in imlay city every year, just figured they would run a trial over this way this year like last new to this.


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

smokinbritts said:


> Ya when i was writing i was thinking the same thing kids are getting older. I had fun running last year but having to drive two hours to run this year makes it a little harder. They have a dinner in imlay city every year, just figured they would run a trial over this way this year like last new to this.


 
Had i known the Thumb wouldn't have a trial i would of done what needed to host an event to help with the people in that area. Lord knows with fuel costs it gets costly.


----------



## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

Steelheadfred said:


> Join your chapters board, committee, ask a bunch of questions, volunteer to chair a trial. Its that easu, secure grounds, birds, judges, a date. I'm happy to help.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Many will help you get started....


----------



## michgundog (Feb 22, 2008)

Rugergundog said:


> Had i known the Thumb wouldn't have a trial i would of done what needed to host an event to help with the people in that area. Lord knows with fuel costs it gets costly.


Let me know if need any help. I would like to see one in the thumb or Tricity area too.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Lloydboy said:


> The Petoskey Chapter is going to hold a second event as a fund raiser for the Drummer Fund on Sunday 9th. It will be a Gun Dog Challenge format with both a Flushing and Pointing Dog Divisions, 20 dog per division. Half of the entry fee will go towards the Drummer Fund!
> 
> So you guys and gals can come up and run the RGS Trial on Saturday and then stay and run the Gun Dog Challenge event on Sunday!!!
> 
> More details to come soon!


Darn. Will have to miss the RGS trial this year, that's the same day of our RGS youth hunt. But maybe the Challenge will work. 

Thanks to all of yous who put in great amount of effort to hold these events!
Steve


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I dont think its to late to schedule one, I would attend your chapters next monthly meeting and start there.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Lloydboy (Jan 25, 2008)

dauber said:


> Darn. Will have to miss the RGS trial this year, that's the same day of our RGS youth hunt. But maybe the Challenge will work.
> 
> Thanks to all of yous who put in great amount of effort to hold these events!
> Steve


You can run while the kids are shooting... I'll put you in the first brace... :evil:
Not like you're not going to be on the property...


----------



## dauber (Jan 11, 2010)

Lloydboy said:


> You can run while the kids are shooting... I'll put you in the first brace... :evil:
> Not like you're not going to be on the property...


We'll have to see if we are there or not. Had a new sponsor at last years banquet who might have us this year. We should decide that tomorrow nite.

I'll run the first brace if I don't have to gun for the woman I did last year at the end:evil:


----------



## Lloydboy (Jan 25, 2008)

dauber said:


> We'll have to see if we are there or not. Had a new sponsor at last years banquet who might have us this year. We should decide that tomorrow nite.
> 
> I'll run the first brace if I don't have to gun for the woman I did last year at the end:evil:


I promise... :evil::evil::evil:


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Having been involved in the set up of other events and the GLSDA events that are run 99% same format. This said i feel confident I could set something up actually very quick and easily as i have access to resources. 

I generally have not been involved in the political or administrative aspect of RGS, for example chapter meetings or banquets. I provide them money and other approaches to the philosophy of the society.

Before going any further in actually heading off an event would it be appropriate to run a RGS event in conjuction with a GLSDA event? Or more appropriately would RGS care?

I ask as Steve Lewis has much of the logistical things already in place for our events, property, birds, porta potty, food, etc. That said piggy backing off of one of the events would be a great opportunity for a larger event with a great family atmosphere. I think it would be great benefit to both the RGS and GLSDA to work together in this way. 

My gutt feeling is GLSDA may gain a few new members....as well as GLSDA members would be highly likely to participate in RGS fun trials as all aspects are very comperable right down to evaluation and even the cost of event.

So.......that said. If what im asking about is not completely insane someone who does attend chapter meetins etc feel free to shoot me a PM or email and I would gladly set up an event or two to cater to the Thumb and Tri-City area.

Bob


----------



## smokinbritts (Apr 17, 2011)

If this works out and you need help let me know.


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

You need a specific chapter sponsor, sounds like Saginaw or RJL Bob, contact the chapter president and get on the next meeting agenda, then the chaptercan voteon your proposal.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Daveldman said:


> I have never seen the gallery pose too much of a problem, as long as they stay back, and don't interfere. These are fun trials, and should be fun for everyone to attend.


Couple years ago the gallery at the dog of the year got shot by a handler running the pointing field. I was one of the people that got hit. No serious injuries. I recommend even if you are spectating wear shooting glasses.


----------



## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Couple years ago the gallery at the dog of the year got shot by a handler running the pointing field. I was one of the people that got hit. No serious injuries. I recommend even if you are spectating wear shooting glasses.


Ouch! All in the name of "shadow boxing"!


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

I shoot out a few emails today to the Saginaw Chapter as well as Steve Lewis of GLSDA. Sounds good in theory however i may not be aware of political reasoning. If it looks like a positive deal ill keep people posted.


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Bob,

I would think, that as long as the min entry requirements are met to send the top four dogs in two divisions to the GDOY trial, then you would be good to go. But you will need to have a "host" sponsor, and all folks that run in an RGS trial, must be RGS members. My guess would be a stand alone trial would be best, be it the same weekend or even the same day in a different field.

Fritz


----------



## Daveldman (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Couple years ago the gallery at the dog of the year got shot by a handler running the pointing field. I was one of the people that got hit. No serious injuries. I recommend even if you are spectating wear shooting glasses.


Not good...however, that sound less like a gallery problem, and more like a irresponsible shooter. As long as everyone stays behind the judges, I would hope that wouldn't happen. The guys I have seen, have been pretty good about calling their own safety. Well, except for one...
Unfortunately, where we hold our trial, there is no real good spectator vantage point for most of the course. I'm the guy with the camera, so I hide behind the judges most of the time, but I also get to see all the dogs pretty close.


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

I have a question regarding one of the basic rules of the fun trial. It is related to the regulation against beep/ec combos. With the increased number of these types of units on the market would it be fair to allow these to be used, yet the remote would be given to the judge during the event so the EC could not be used.


On a second note and sort of related. It would be up to the Chapter to allow a EC and or Combo to be worn (ec not used) during the regional (chapter) event prior to GDOY correct? 

I personally am not against this for a few reasons. Younger handlers and less experienced handler/dog teams may run into a situation that a dog is not obeying and becomes a run off, etc. Judge would always hold the remote, and in the event that the romote needed to be used while the trial was running the dog would be DQ'd. Yet the owner would have a tool to assist in getting his dog back off the field and safe. This would not affect GDOY as ultimately these dogs would not qualify. Obviously the dogs at GDOY are of a more disciplined nature than some of those weeded out at the regional events.


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Rugergundog said:


> I have a question regarding one of the basic rules of the fun trial. It is related to the regulation against beep/ec combos. With the increased number of these types of units on the market would it be fair to allow these to be used, yet the remote would be given to the judge during the event so the EC could not be used.
> 
> 
> On a second note and sort of related. It would be up to the Chapter to allow a EC and or Combo to be worn (ec not used) during the regional (chapter) event prior to GDOY correct?
> ...


 
I hope you are just joking. Allowing handlers to use e-collars is an unfair advantage. Dogs know when they have an e-collar on, and behave and handle, better even to the point of being steady, run them naked. If your dog is that out of control then they should not be running. Handlers find enough ways to cheat these events why add another one.


----------



## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

I'm with Brandy said:


> I hope you are just joking. Allowing handlers to use e-collars is an unfair advantage. Dogs know when they have an e-collar on, and behave and handle, better even to the point of being steady, run them naked. If your dog is that out of control then they should not be running. Handlers find enough ways to cheat these events why add another one.


Now Doug if you would just let these events liberalize enough they will all figure that they are justa goat rodeo after all.. 
it's not a trial it's a fund raiser for pete sake every one with four legs and tail should be allowed to enter. 
If there were actual standards that would take the "fun" out the events, and we all know what fun is... it's easyyyyyy

I say let'em run with E- collars, checkcords, pinch and spike collars and if any one remembers bogie balls those as well. Bitches in season would also be good idea. It would sure help the numbers...
Laugh so hard i can't stand it


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I was told by a LPGA Golfer in 1995 when I was a high school Jr, I was looping for her that week; when Hal talks for some reason this memory comes back to me.

She said, and I quote, "I've never met a Caddy that was a great Golfer." 



Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

gundogguy said:


> Now Doug if you would just let these events liberalize enough they will all figure that they are justa goat rodeo after all..
> it's not a trial it's a fund raiser for pete sake every one with four legs and tail should be allowed to enter.
> If there were actual standards that would take the "fun" out the events, and we all know what fun is... it's easyyyyyy
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, most chapters don't make much if any money at these events.

Second, I can name 4 guys who's dogs have done quite well at these events and I would wager as much money as you care to that these 4 fellas killed more wild birds over their dogs than all of your clients combined probably over a 3 year period. Goat rodeo dogs don't put that much meat in the bag.


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

I knew where there was some goats  and is a goat in the pointing or flushing division
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

N M Mechanical said:


> I knew where there was some goats  and is a goat in the pointing or flushing division
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Pigeon Division*


----------



## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Rugergundog said:


> On a second note and sort of related. It would be up to the Chapter to allow a EC and or Combo to be worn (ec not used) during the regional (chapter) event prior to GDOY correct?


No and No.

The combo issue has been discussed in depth by the committee. The dog knows it has the collar on, and because of that has an unfair advantage.

Every chapter must comply with the Minimum Requirements to send dogs to the Gun Dog of the Year trial. Combo units are not up to the individual chapters.



gundogguy said:


> Now Doug if you would just let these events liberalize enough they will all figure that they are justa goat rodeo after all..


Hal, why you feel a need to run your mouth about something you know nothing about is beyond me. Stick to threads about shooting pigeons, you seem more then qualified to handle those.


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

I'm with Brandy said:


> I hope you are just joking. Allowing handlers to use e-collars is an unfair advantage. Dogs know when they have an e-collar on, and behave and handle, better even to the point of being steady, run them naked. If your dog is that out of control then they should not be running. Handlers find enough ways to cheat these events why add another one.


I had to go back and reread SHF's original post where I thought I had read "fun trial". I was worried about being a first time trainer with a young dog from a breed from the wrong side of the tracks that might get in the way or bother another dog or handler. And then when someone ask a question that kind of made sense to me in a "fun trial" I find out I also have to worry about my dog or myself getting in the way of someone having fun cheating its starting to sound like way to much pressure for me. I guess I will just go watch in April to see what I might be getting into. 

Jim

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Jim as we talked about at your banquet the spring trial is for "fun" and intro to RGS 99% of the people that come to these events are there for a good time run there dogs and catch up with fellow hunters. So Jim run your hound and be proud of how it runs it will be a great time and that I am surre of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

N M Mechanical said:


> Jim as we talked about at your banquet the spring trial is for "fun" and intro to RGS 99% of the people that come to these events are there for a good time run there dogs and catch up with fellow hunters. So Jim run your hound and be proud of how it runs it will be a great time and that I am surre of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe I should go over and watch the March trial first so I have some idea what I am getting into. All kidding about "fun trial" aside, as we talked about at the banquet the only thing I am really concerned with is causing an issue for someone else. As far as the dog goes he only has what was bred into him and what I give him neither of which were his choice.

Jim

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Freestone (May 15, 2003)

N M Mechanical said:


> As to gallery we don't mean no spectators just no gallery walking the coarse. As a guy who puts on of these on we need and want spectators. Both of the events that are ran in the greater grand rapids area are less then 5 minutes from the expressway and many hotels very close by. Both places this year we made sure where set up with great club houses that way the weather was bad you can get out of it, the cover is top notch and GREAT VIEWING areas. Both area's are less then 15 minutes from downtown GR so I hope to see high turn outs at both events
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Could you tell me where I could get details on the events near Grand Rapids? I'd like to watch them. Do you have to be a RGS member to be a spectator?


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Okay if you want to use an e-collar. Can the other handlers use a regular collar? They stick some needles in the collar so the dog is reminded where his head should be.
If your dog is not steady to gun fire when he goes on point move so the bird is between you and the judge and flush the bird at his face this will get you a safety and you won't have to test to see if your dog is steady. They will toss a dead one for you but we all know that&#8217;s not the same as a flush and shot. 
Keep a bird in your pocket the judge may be distracted and you can give your dog an extra find.
Hal,
While I am cynical I tried to be political with my original reply. But I agree with you at some point it is no longer a fun trial its just a feel good trial. Why not just put the dogs on leads and put dead birds in luanchers.
An HRC club that I am a member of wanted to change the super single series because some people wanted to run it with E-collars on their dogs. For those that don't know what a super singles is, its a competition where the dogs are timed on single retrieves fastest dog wins cash prize. I protested because I knew the people that wanted to use the e-collar also force their dogs to pile with the e-collar. Force to pile is basically the dog is sent for the retrieve and he is hot until he gets the bumper in his mouth. He may be constantly stimulated on the return too. Many start that process by shooting marbles with a sling-shot at their dogs to make them retrieve faster. Needless to say they got their way and I won&#8217;t participate in that event ever again.
I say fine let them use an E-collar but all dogs with out e-collars should get an automatic 200 point bonus.


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Jim58 said:


> Maybe I should go over and watch the March trial first so I have some idea what I am getting into. All kidding about "fun trial" aside, as we talked about at the banquet the only thing I am really concerned with is causing an issue for someone else. As far as the dog goes he only has what was bred into him and what I give him neither of which were his choice.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


If your dog is a puppy then run him in puppy trial. I think it goes up to the age of 2. By all means run a trial. I have run in them and I had a great time. I am not against them I just don't think they should be dummied down. I am not a pro trainer. I have one dog. I train to the standard for that dog breed. The first RGS trial I ran my dog's brace mate took off after a fly away bird. I sat my dog and waited for him to get his dog under control so it would be safe for everyone in the field. Once the dog was back under control we continued down field. I took first place at that trial. A well trained dog will not be screwed up by someone's out of control dog.


----------



## Mr. Botek (Mar 15, 2011)

People really do that stuff at fun trials? Wow. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Erased- Thanks Brad i missed your reply.
-Bob


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

erased- Didn't see Brad answered the question.


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Brad-
Missed your reply as it was on a page earlier on my browder. Thanks for the reply. I did not realize that the issue was discussed by RGS already.

So does this also mean that a "dummy" collar can not be used. Though ive never seen one actually ever on a dog i have heard of them and seen them in catalogs?

thanks
-Bob


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Rugergundog said:


> Not trying to stir the pot,


After the conversation you and I had at the great lakes sport dog test I am not so sure I believe this. 

I would be less concerned if the prongs were removed. But many dogs would react to the weight of the collar.


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Mr. Botek said:


> People really do that stuff at fun trials? Wow.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


yes, and some handlers actually yell at the judges after they lose. This happens in all trials it is just the nature of it. Some people are very competitive, even at fun trials. 

I don&#8217;t want to give the wrong impression. 
I think the RGS fun trials can be fun and I would say run them. I just don't think they should be diluted down. I also think that they could be safer and that people caught cheating should be banned from running another trial for a year.


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Freestone said:


> Could you tell me where I could get details on the events near Grand Rapids? I'd like to watch them. Do you have to be a RGS member to be a spectator?


April 7th the Kzoo chaptper will run at rustic ridge and the lakeshore chapter will be running our trial april 21st at wings n rings.
At our trial we do allow people to run with a ecollar but there dog does not quailify. 
Jim as we talked about if your dog or any dog is causing problems in the field(not fighting) we will split you up so both you and your bracemate will enjoy the run
Most the negative reposes to this thread are ones that DON'T even run a dog at these events. So come and enjoy your self your dog will do fine
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike McDonald (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm curious. I've run in several and judged a couple. How do people cheat? mac


----------



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Mike McDonald said:


> I'm curious. I've run in several and judged a couple. How do people cheat? mac


I was wondering the same thing Mac. I've been to quite a few of these across the state and have never seen or heard of anyone "cheating". That being said, no it all Hal seems to be the one insinuating all these false rumors etc.


----------



## BradU20 (Jan 17, 2005)

Rugergundog said:


> Brad-
> Missed your reply as it was on a page earlier on my browder. Thanks for the reply. I did not realize that the issue was discussed by RGS already.
> 
> So does this also mean that a "dummy" collar can not be used. Though ive never seen one actually ever on a dog i have heard of them and seen them in catalogs?
> ...


No dummys either....see 6 and 7 from the Min Req
6. *Can I use an electronic training collar at a trial?* 
No electronic training devices are allowed. 

7. *Can I use a bell, beeper collar or tracking collar?* 
Yes. No beeper/electronic collar combos are allowed. Collars must be functional.


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

Douge- 
I had no ill intentions with this post and the qustions. In fact im just passing questions that were posed to me. If you review my initial question i was (and am not) asking for handlers to have access to use of a EC. My primary question related to allowing people with combo units to still utilize the beeper part. Brad answered the question in detail.

NM- Thanks. You also answered my second question regarding the use of the EC for a new handler. If a EC (or as Brad said a EC/Beeper combo is worn, they are allowed to "participate" however not allowed to advance. Am i reading that correct?


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

BradU20 said:


> No dummys either....see 6 and 7 from the Min Req
> 6. *Can I use an electronic training collar at a trial?*
> No electronic training devices are allowed.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Brad. Ill prob try to give you a call soon. I have the rule list...however as we know every Tom Dick and Harry and interpret them. I just want to keep everything the same and as kosher as possible to all the other fun trials. Need to prepare myself for the onslaught of questions,


----------



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

I'm with Brandy said:


> I hope you are just joking. Allowing handlers to use e-collars is an unfair advantage. Dogs know when they have an e-collar on, and behave and handle, better even to the point of being steady, run them naked. If your dog is that out of control then they should not be running. Handlers find enough ways to cheat these events why add another one.


Bigsp I think this is where the cheating thing got its start.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Rugergundog said:


> Douge-
> I had no ill intentions with this post and the qustions. In fact im just passing questions that were posed to me. If you review my initial question i was (and am not) asking for handlers to have access to use of a EC. My primary question related to allowing people with combo units to still utilize the beeper part. Brad answered the question in detail.
> 
> NM- Thanks. You also answered my second question regarding the use of the EC for a new handler. If a EC (or as Brad said a EC/Beeper combo is worn, they are allowed to "participate" however not allowed to advance. Am i reading that correct?


Bob I can not speak for the rest of the chapters but for the Lakeshore but I will allow the handler to run there dog with a Ecollar and they will be judged but be basically a "buy" dog. Our chapter does not want to disencourage any one from running again this event is to intro to RGS and is a good time and most of my new close friends and hunting partners where found and made at these events. Now GDOTY that is alittle more serious but still very good time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

You are welcome to run the Traverse City trial also with an ecollar, you will be scored but you won't be eligible to place. You are also welcome to run when we have space available a dog that does not meet for whatever reason the Min Entry requirements, this could be a dog that is a Master Hunter, or an already qualified dog at a previous RGS trial.

I am seeing some opinions that interfearence is an issue; it really is not, I ran in RJL a few years ago and Bella was paired with a Rhodesian Ridgeback, it was a young dog, he tagged Bella for five minutes, I simply sat my dog and gave the handler a chance to get his dog working, it took three attempts but the handler and judge were able to break away and we went about winning that trial. If your dog happens to interfere with another dog, well the judges are going to give the dog interfered with another chance especially if they think it has a chance to be used. 

I have not seen blatant cheating, we cleaned up the safety issue and I think judges have handled it well and the current system is working. We also cleaned up some other un-sportsman like behavior by going to the two birds and done rule, we cleaned up the dog off leash issue in parking areas. One bag egg does not make a bad dozen.


----------



## Wolf_Dancer34 (Nov 14, 2006)

BIGSP said:


> The lakeshore chapter is hosting it on Sunday Nov 25 at wings and rings in Zeeland.


I bet if you asked Todd again this year he just might take some more of his fabulous photos that he has came to be known for. For the Lakeshore chapter. Just a suggestion!!


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Wolf_Dancer34 said:


> I bet if you asked Todd again this year he just might take some more of his fabulous photos that he has came to be known for. For the Lakeshore chapter. Just a suggestion!!


He can and anyone else that is willing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf_Dancer34 (Nov 14, 2006)

I did not mean that Todd was the only one who could take photos...just making a photo person suggestion.


----------



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Wolf_Dancer34 said:


> I did not mean that Todd was the only one who could take photos...just making a photo person suggestion.


Well certainly he will get first dibs on the job. One of the perks of being a member of our chapter. lol

For anyone who hasn't seen Todd's photo's they are fantastic.


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Mike McDonald said:


> I'm curious. I've run in several and judged a couple. How do people cheat? mac


Mac,

I have gunned for handlers before and on two separate occasions believe the other handler and handler gunner teams were cheating. They would purposefully move so that when they kick the bird up it would flush at the judge or another handler so they could call a safety. I watch this go on for three birds at one trial. Even watched the gunner as he looked up to make sure he was lined up with the judge before he kicked out the bird. The gunner was standing next to the judge on the left hand side of the dog facing open field he could have flushed the bird from the left side of the dog, but he walked all the way around the back of the dog and flushed the bird from the right side. Even though I was gunning for someone else I had clear shot and killed the bird and in both cases the dog was not steady to a shot bird. 
For this reason and for safety I still say we should have designated gunners.


----------



## mudbat2128 (Sep 7, 2004)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Mac,
> 
> I have gunned for handlers before and on two separate occasions believe the other handler and handler gunner teams were cheating. They would purposefully move so that when they kick the bird up it would flush at the judge or another handler so they could call a safety. I watch this go on for three birds at one trial. Even watched the gunner as he looked up to make sure he was lined up with the judge before he kicked out the bird. The gunner was standing next to the judge on the left hand side of the dog facing open field he could have flushed the bird from the left side of the dog, but he walked all the way around the back of the dog and flushed the bird from the right side. Even though I was gunning for someone else I had clear shot and killed the bird and in both cases the dog was not steady to a shot bird.
> For this reason and for safety I still say we should have designated gunners.


 How can they give you a score for a safety if you don't have at least one retrieve. Seems like they would have taken themselves out of the running then.


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Steelheadfred said:


> You are welcome to run the Traverse City trial also with an ecollar, you will be scored but you won't be eligible to place. You are also welcome to run when we have space available a dog that does not meet for whatever reason the Min Entry requirements, this could be a dog that is a Master Hunter, or an already qualified dog at a previous RGS trial.
> 
> I am seeing some opinions that interfearence is an issue; it really is not, I ran in RJL a few years ago and Bella was paired with a Rhodesian Ridgeback, it was a young dog, he tagged Bella for five minutes, I simply sat my dog and gave the handler a chance to get his dog working, it took three attempts but the handler and judge were able to break away and we went about winning that trial. If your dog happens to interfere with another dog, well the judges are going to give the dog interfered with another chance especially if they think it has a chance to be used.
> 
> I have not seen blatant cheating, we cleaned up the safety issue and I think judges have handled it well and the current system is working. We also cleaned up some other un-sportsman like behavior by going to the two birds and done rule, we cleaned up the dog off leash issue in parking areas. One bag egg does not make a bad dozen.


Fritz,
 I by no means am trying to say that everyone is a bad egg. I am 100% on board if someone wants to run with an e-collar but they are not allowed to place. You know how I feel about designated gunners and the safety issue it is not anything new from me. When I joined the Traverse City board I hit the ground running. I recommend changes all the time to make things better for members and giving my two cents about the dog trial is no different. I feel using an e-collar gives a handler an unfair advantage. And I voiced my opinion about it. I am already disappointed that steadiness is no longer scored and that honoring is no longer scored for flushing dogs. At some point you have to pick a standard for your dog and maintain that expectation in all your training. I think of a dog trial as being no different. A standard has to be set. If someone comes along and they are unhappy because they are unable get their dog to meet the standard we should not then be changing the standard to meet their level of training. I could see having another division but not watering down the trial.


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

mudbat2128 said:


> How can they give you a score for a safety if you don't have at least one retrieve. Seems like they would have taken themselves out of the running then.


 
They will hand toss a dead bird for the dog.


----------



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Mac,
> 
> I have gunned for handlers before and on two separate occasions believe the other handler and handler gunner teams were cheating. They would purposefully move so that when they kick the bird up it would flush at the judge or another handler so they could call a safety. I watch this go on for three birds at one trial. Even watched the gunner as he looked up to make sure he was lined up with the judge before he kicked out the bird. The gunner was standing next to the judge on the left hand side of the dog facing open field he could have flushed the bird from the left side of the dog, but he walked all the way around the back of the dog and flushed the bird from the right side. Even though I was gunning for someone else I had clear shot and killed the bird and in both cases the dog was not steady to a shot bird.
> For this reason and for safety I still say we should have designated gunners.


Doug,

I've gunned, judged, walked and ran dogs in a bunch of these trials and have never seen that. I'm not saying it didn't happen but, let's just say all the chair people for the various trials never thought it was a problem. I can guarantee that these people who were doing what you observed probably didn't place and certainly didn't win any titles at the end of the year.

If you don't like how things are being judged please come to our annual meeting to discuss rules. Believe it or not everything that you don't like was actually talked about at great length before any changes were made. I'm not going to explain why they were made if you were that interested you would have shown up for the meeting.

We don't seem to have a much of a problem recruiting new members to these events nor do we have to do any prodding to get past participants to travel to these events. So, in my opinion and the opinion of the other chairs for the trials we are doing a great thing and our customers seem quite happy with the product we are putting out.

You can never make anyone happy but, if more people are satisfied than dissatisfied I would have to say we are doing a good thing.

Thanks,

Brent


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Doug,

I'm against ecollar use and disapointed to see it will be allowed at the super singles, I support your idea of running naked and I appreciate your suggestions. 

Also, as far as the steady issue, the problem was, not every dog got a chance to honor, this is why it was eliminated in both divisions. I could support a situation of a call back when a dog is in the money but no option to honor. I can also support taking honoring out of the trials also, I see it as 6 of one, half dozen of the other. 

Your points on safety's is valid but is more a pointing dog division, the pointing dog owners got tired of the flushing dog owners winning, so we split the divisions, they felt the retrieve level was not fair.

There is a standard, at the end of the day, the dogs winning consistently,under a variety of judges, are lock down wild bird dogs. Some are beating dogs that are used as guide dogs on 200-300 bird hunts. I wonder why?


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Brent,

Be carefull what you ask. I might show up at the next one.


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Steelheadfred said:


> Doug,
> 
> I'm against ecollar use and disapointed to see it will be allowed at the super singles, I support your idea of running naked and I appreciate your suggestions.
> 
> ...


 
Again 100% behind the division split. Not fair to flushing dog owners that point dog owners can reach down and pickup the bird and toss it while flushing dogs hand to get a flush. So I think the division split was a great move forward for both. 
A couple years ago a spaniel took dog of the year in flushing. That dog is used for preserve hunts. But again the rules were changed after that dog won.


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Again 100% behind the division split. Not fair to flushing dog owners that point dog owners can reach down and pickup the bird and toss it while flushing dogs hand to get a flush. So I think the division split was a great move forward for both.
> A couple years ago a spaniel took dog of the year in flushing. That dog is used for preserve hunts. But again the rules were changed after that dog won.


 
Rules were not changed after that trial that I am aware of.

I'm not speaking of just spaniels being used as guide dogs on preserve hunts.


----------



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I'm with Brandy said:


> Again 100% behind the division split. Not fair to flushing dog owners that point dog owners can reach down and pickup the bird and toss it while flushing dogs hand to get a flush. So I think the division split was a great move forward for both.
> A couple years ago a spaniel took dog of the year in flushing. That dog is used for preserve hunts. But again the rules were changed after that dog won.


Doug the rules weren't changed after or because that dog won. The rules were enforced the following year because of what happened there.


----------



## Rugergundog (May 21, 2008)

My vote is for all threads related to a direct challange of any rules or policies of the trials be removed by a mod.

Its been stated. 
1) The rules are set.
2) If a dispute of a rule is apparant visit a chapter meeting and bring it up.


IMHO all the continued debate in a public forum is tarnishing the spirit of the events.

Possible new handlers browsing a thread to get some info find themselves strolling through multiple pages of bitter personal attacks and disputes. I know this as im hosting one of these things and people email me to ask me questions and they are making it clear that all the drama posts get in the way.

My Vote.......remove the garbage threads and those who want to continue to challange rules take to a private forum or a chapter meeting....or don't participate. 1/2 the dang complaining prob coming from those who won't even be running a dog.

Brad did a nice job of answering my concerns when i had them.

-Bob


----------



## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

After reading through all of this all I got to say is: My hats off to all of those working to make these events "Fun." There will be those who are so competitive they will bend the spirit of the rules to win. 

For those who are thinking of entering but are not sure if your dog is up to the standards of competition; run anyhow and just have fun. Whenever you have a prize at the end (RGS GDOY) it may get a bit competitive for some to just have "Fun", They must win.

In the end it raises money for habitat and even if the all the handlers are not having fun, the dogs are.


----------



## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Shotgun Kennel said:


> After reading through all of this all I got to say is: My hats off to all of those working to make these events "Fun."


Tim when I was involved with our local chapter I was asked many,many times when we were going to put on a dog trial you probably were asked the same thing. It is threads like this that made the word "never" jump out of my mouth faster than I could exhale those letters. 
My hats off to those as well that put up with all the crap they take just provide the group membership with a day of fun and comraderie.


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Dont judge till you've attended and run.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## English Setter Gal (Sep 19, 2008)

*IMHO all the continued debate in a public forum is tarnishing the spirit of the events.*

Possible new handlers browsing a thread to get some info find themselves strolling through multiple pages of bitter personal attacks and disputes. I know this as im hosting one of these things and people email me to ask me questions and they are making it clear that all the drama posts get in the way.

*My Vote.......remove the garbage threads and those who want to continue to challange rules take to a private forum or a chapter meeting....or don't participate. 1/2 the dang complaining prob coming from those who won't even be running a dog*.

-Bob[/QUOTE]


----------



## I'm with Brandy (Aug 5, 2007)

Yes MINE FÜHRER,
You think that you&#8217;re so elite that you&#8217;re beyond reproach?

So because some of you don't like others point of view or the fact that they question the rules you want to censor what they have to say.

I would remind you that questions about rules have come up from people that have never run an event and have asked why they can't run with certain types of collars. Or maybe they question why dogs can run with collars.

Are you now going to be the judge of who can answer those questions? 

And if someone has a problem with the rules you&#8217;re going to censor what they have to say? 

Do the elite of the RGS now run this forum? 

I have run the trials and that is how I originally joined RGS. I can&#8217;t run the trials with my current dog because of her titles the rules don't allows us. Hey look rules that I am fine with. As to why I no longer go to the trials that I would rather not talk about in a public forum. 

I was asked to be a board member. I have sought change where I thought it would benefit my RGS chapter and members. As a board member I have brought up my concerns over trial rules at meetings. My biggest concern is safety. That&#8217;s why I refuse to be negligent and tell people they are totally safe at these events. Bring your family I am all for it but bring safety equipment there will be live firing going on. Another handler in the flushing field may fall behind you and you may end up in their line of fire.

Why is it okay for some of you RGS elitist to come on this forum and give your opinion about the use of collars during trials, but others that don&#8217;t agree with the rules are not allowed?
I have not dictated rules to anyone I have voiced my opinion about the rules from both fairness and a safety stand point that does not make me anti fun trial or anti RGS.

I have said all the time come run the trials they are fun. 

When the question comes up in the forums where someone questions the use of collars in the fun trial you might as well get used to the fact that I think dogs should run naked. Just because you don&#8217;t agree doesn&#8217;t mean you have the right to comment and I don&#8217;t.

I tell you the elitist in the RGS are really making me question why I even joined in the first place.

A little side note Ruggerdog you were the one that originally posted in a thread questioning the use of collars. If you didn&#8217;t want it to be public then you should have used a PM. Maybe you just wanted to stir the pot again 

Fritz, I agree with the bell.


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Doug, to your point, "if there not talking about you youre doing something wrong."

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

If you have a question about the rules by all means, ask and it shall be answered.

If you want to debate the merits of the rules, take the rule to club officers in the local chapter in which you are currently involved and start the debate there.

The only reason to debate rules in this forum is to piss people off and incite snarky answers from uninvolved know-nothing peon idiots

.... like me.

KW


----------



## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)




----------



## JJ_Jeruzal (Oct 25, 2011)

So wait...there ARE or ARE NOT beers after the events? That's the deal-breaker for me to attend.


----------



## Flash01 (Jun 12, 2008)

For those who are new to the fun trials...

I have attended two fun trials and have witnessed only civility and kindness... and sportsmanship from what I saw.

The anonymity of the internet and ease with which one can mis-read tone and tenor of a posting makes people act much differently than they do in person I have found. This includes myself, unfortunately.

Come out and have fun. If you want to run a collar on your dog, you can, you just wont place if it is a rules violation. The judges will let you know if you are violating the rules at the event... ask if you are not sure.


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

I think these events are great! Look at our chapter the board members most of them got there start in RGS due to fun trials and now we have 20 people showing up for monthly meetings willing to give the free time up to do work for rgs. These "fun trials" are great I have meet training and hunting partners and every year I meet up with like minded people and share life stories. If you are unsure of these events come watch one and talk to people don't just stand by your car actually talk to people and you will more then likely enjoy your self and want to be apart of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

JJ_Jeruzal said:


> So wait...there ARE or ARE NOT beers after the events? That's the deal-breaker for me to attend.


Jeremy you are showing up regradless!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

I'm with Brandy said:


> *Yes MINE FÜHRER,*
> *You think that youre so elite that youre beyond reproach*?
> 
> Right on! Censorship is not needed!
> ...


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

My dog yesterday, flushed a big spring drummer "took him right off the nest."

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Gundogguy. You're the only one who keeps stirring the pot. I'll take the top 4 flushers and the top four pointers over anything you put out in a given year. Your poultry dogs couldn't compete in the woods with wild birds. You can take that to the bank!


----------



## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> My dog yesterday, flushed a big spring drummer "took him right off the nest."
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


 Took "HIM" of the nest?


----------



## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Right off the Nest Nick, you hard of reading? 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

BIGSP said:


> Gundogguy. You're the only one who keeps stirring the pot. I'll take the top 4 flushers and the top four pointers over anything you put out in a given year. Your poultry dogs couldn't compete in the woods with wild birds. You can take that to the bank!


I notice that BIGSP always turns to treats and dares against wild and pen raise, do not quite get it but if that what you got go with it
How can a wimpy chukar trial equate to great dogs on wild birds,
RGS should be running these events on wild birds then you would have something to really crow about.

I still say get a sub-category on the Upland forum should be set aside for the RGS event info and for you wanna be triallers to gab about about how much fun finding 2 chukars are and how it means you all got great dogs without really doing more than 2 contacts if that many. 
Oh and concerning the pot would rather be stirring than licking any day.
Picnic trials should be just what they are a way for folks in a culture to get to knwo each other. And possible a stepping stone or bridge to more meaningful dog work. No more or nothing less


----------



## HarleyP (Mar 4, 2004)

gundogguy said:


> I notice that BIGSP always turns to treats and dares against wild and pen raise, do not quite get it but if that what you got go with it
> How can a wimpy chukar trial equate to great dogs on wild birds,
> RGS should be running these events on wild birds then you would have something to really crow about.
> 
> ...


Couple points Hal, 

1. You could just enter one, come out have fun and enjoy the day. Seems pretty simple.

2. Re subcategory. Ya know, the other option is that you can CHOOSE to not read a thread. It is not mandatory for you to read and comment on every thread the interweb throws your way. Should the mods make a Hal Standish sub category so that you can crow about the meaningless drivel that you find important? That might not be a bad idea either. 

Guess that's it. I think Flash01's last point hit the nail on the head. I've been to a few of these events and have had a great time. People were friendly, dogs were well behaved, well organized, pretty much a good time all around. Certainly wasn't the tape measures whipped out checking everyone's ***** dimension like there is here.


----------

