# Black powder metal cartridges ?



## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

this is the states description of a black powder handgun...it says they only need to be registered if they take a modern cartridge, does NOT say there not a blackpowder handgun if they do!! some "black powder" handguns do take metalic cartridges. 

where is it written that you cannot use a cartridge bp handgun? is there a link?



bone said:


> from the link above of the state description
> 
> section 23
> 
> *Black powder or percussion firearms are made in various forms (revolvers, derringers and single-shot pistols), but all should be coded PU. **Black powder pistols are exempt from the license to purchase/pistol sales record requirement unless they take a modern cartridge. *


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

<LI id=jsArticleStep1 itxtvisited="1">The Gun Control Act of 1968 defines an antique firearm in § 921(16) as any firearm manufactured before 1898, including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar ignition system. Replicas of such firearms are also considered antiques so long as the replica is not "designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition." A replica is also considered an antique firearm if it uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and such ammunition is not "readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade." Finally, a muzzleloader is considered an antique if it is designed to use black powder (or a substitute), and therefore cannot use fixed ammunition. *Exceptions to Antiques*

<LI id=jsArticleStep1 itxtvisited="1">A muzzleloader may meet all of the aforementioned requirements of an antique, but it is still considered not to be an antique if it incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, if it is a firearm that is converted to a muzzleloader, or if it can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the "barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof." The ATF provides examples of such models that are still considered firearms, despite their muzzleloading capability.​ 
So some of you are saying, that I can use my 1881 Marlin lever action, 40-60cal. because it shoots a cartridge filled with black powder?

With dial up, it takes me forever to do a search but, you can bet that any cartridge, rather its filled with black or a substitute, is going to get you a ticket. If it doesn't load from the muzzle or, in the case of a pistol, it would have to load INTO the cylinder. 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/...irearms-verification-nfa-antique-firearm.html


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## Nick Adams (Mar 10, 2005)

ENCORE said:


> So some of you are saying, that I can use my 1881 Marlin lever action, 40-60cal. because it shoots a cartridge filled with black powder?


Not during the muzzleloader season. Rifles have to be loaded from the muzzle. 

We are saying that if you had a handgun chambered in 40-60 WCF and you used cartridges loaded with black powder in it, the regulations allow it to be used during Michigan's muzzleloader season to take deer.

Summary of the rules is here.

If you read closely you will see that the bottleneck cartridge restriction and the minimum caliber restrictions don't apply to the use of cartridge handguns loaded with black powder during the muzzleloader season, either. ;-)

-na


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)




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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

Go to junkman eating crow in the law enfocement section.This has been researched.


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

Nick Adams said:


> Not during the muzzleloader season. Rifles have to be loaded from the muzzle.
> 
> We are saying that if you had a handgun chambered in 40-60 WCF and you used cartridges loaded with black powder in it, the regulations allow it to be used during Michigan's muzzleloader season to take deer.
> 
> ...


I read this: 
*Muzzleloading Deer Seasons*
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a crossbow or a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a *black powder handgun* loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.

And I read this: 
A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge. 
A muzzleloading rifle or *black powder handgun* must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute. 
A *conventional* (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.
[/COLOR] 
If this has been researched before and the law defined here on MS, can someone *please show me the law that says you can use a* *cartridge, loaded with black powder**, legally during the muzzleloader season?* A T/C Encore pistol, loaded with straight-walled cartridge, can be used during the regular deer season. I believe that the state's definition of a _black powder handgun_ is going to be one that is either loaded from the muzzle or, one that has to be hand loaded into the cylinders.

I'm very willing to be proved wrong. Its been done many times before (just ask the wife).


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## ENCORE (Sep 19, 2005)

junkman said:


> Go to junkman eating crow in the law enfocement section.This has been researched.


Just checked out the "eating crow" post. It appears to me, that there may be so many different interpetations of it, it sure as heck wouldn't be worth it. Having to prove that a cartridge was loaded with black powder or, that it was originally a black powder cartridge or, where you obtained it, is way more trouble than its worth. Truely, the law needs to be WELL DEFINED. It appears from the "eating crow" post, that I need to share some....... However, putting myself into a position to have to explain or prove I was right, either to a LEO or a court isn't going to happen over this. I'll stick to the muzzleloading rifle, loaded through the muzzle


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

it says BLACK POWDER HANDGUN not muzzle loading handgun or cap and ball handgun. a handgun originally designed to shoot black powder wether cartridge or loose powder is legal

uberti colt single action army in 38-40 made off the original patents from 1871 and 1872, and a navy model cap and ball. both legal for muzzy when loaded with black powder. the 38-40 however is not legal during regular firearm season below the shotgun line because of the bottlekneck


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## cataway (Nov 26, 2010)

i just picked up a 15"TC encore 45-70 and had to try the T7 stuff , wow that stuff works good 
i was shooting 100 yd's i can cover the groop with a nickle


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## dogjaw (Nov 8, 2000)

If you look at page 23 of the firearm identification document, it states the following.


> Black powder or percussion firearms are made in various forms (revolvers, derringers and single-shot pistols), but *all should be coded PU*. Black powder pistols are exempt from the license to purchase/pistol sales record requirement unless they take a modern cartridge.


 Is your Thompson coded "PU"?


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

dogjaw said:


> If you look at page 23 of the firearm identification document, it states the following. Is your Thompson coded "PU"?


no it wouldnt be because it takes a modern cartridge. but its still legal
your post says black powder handguns will be coded* unless they take a modern cartridge*.

it does not say its not a bp handgun IF it takes a modern cartridge!


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## dogjaw (Nov 8, 2000)

bone said:


> no it wouldnt be because it takes a modern cartridge. but its still legal
> your post says black powder handguns will be coded* unless they take a modern cartridge*.
> 
> it does not say its not a bp handgun IF it takes a modern cartridge!


A course in reading comprehension would be most advantageous. My post (copied and pasted from the Michigan State Police document) did not say it would be coded unless it takes a modern cartridge. Here it is again. Try not skipping any words this time. 
"Black powder or percussion firearms are made in various forms (revolvers, derringers and single-shot pistols), but all should be coded PU. Black powder pistols are exempt from the license to purchase/pistol sales record requirement unless they take a modern cartridge."


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

dogjaw said:


> A course in reading comprehension would be most advantageous. My post (copied and pasted from the Michigan State Police document) did not say it would be coded unless it takes a modern cartridge. Here it is again. Try not skipping any words this time.
> "Black powder or percussion firearms are made in various forms (revolvers, derringers and single-shot pistols), but all should be coded PU. Black powder pistols are exempt from the license to purchase/pistol sales record requirement unless they take a modern cartridge."


 
you got me on that one. this dumb hillbilly is a little slow at times, it still says "should" not "will" or "must"

my saa is a black powder handgun, it was not designed to shoot modern powder at modern pressures. it was designed to shoot 38 grains of bp, we use 3-4 grains of a modern substitute because it buns cleaner and is easier on the gun as far as corrosion.

also nowhere on my army cap and ball is the code pu nor is it on the green registration card for that gun. i registered it even though its black powder only because i hunt with it.


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## cataway (Nov 26, 2010)

dogjaw said:


> If you look at page 23 of the firearm identification document, it states the following. Is your Thompson coded "PU"?


 i should like to ask ,Why do you ask ?


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

cataway said:


> i should like to ask ,Why do you ask ?


because acording to the law in order to actually be a blackpowder handgun it "should" be labeled "pu" on the registration. TC handguns are not re-registered for each barrel you buy for them and it wouldnt even have the "pu" designation even if you bought a 50 cal muzzle loader barrel for it. thats why the law says "shall" not "will" or "must" but what do i know, by my own definition im just a dumb hillbilly interpeting laws to suit my needs.

then again acording to the law my mossberg 500 12 guage that has a fully rifled barrel and only fires a single projectile is a "rifle" by legal deffinition and not legal below the shotgun line either. so if were going by the states definition and not the DNRs deffinition a bunch of us are violating with 12 and 20 guage "rifles"


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## Ricochet Willy (Nov 9, 2010)

bone said:


> my saa is a black powder handgun, it was not designed to shoot modern powder at modern pressures. it was designed to shoot 38 grains of bp, we use 3-4 grains of a modern substitute because it buns cleaner and is easier on the gun as far as corrosion.


You may want to check that out a little more - If your SAA is actually a first generation Colt you are probably right. If it is a Uberti SAA clone (which I think you posted somewhere) it would not be a black powder handgun. You are just shooting a cartridge that was originally BP.


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## cataway (Nov 26, 2010)

bone said:


> because acording to the law in order to actually be a blackpowder handgun it "should" be labeled "pu" on the registration. TC handguns are not re-registered for each barrel you buy for them and it wouldnt even have the "pu" designation even if you bought a 50 cal muzzle loader barrel for it. thats why the law says "shall" not "will" or "must" but what do i know, by my own definition im just a dumb hillbilly interpeting laws to suit my needs.
> 
> then again acording to the law my mossberg 500 12 guage that has a fully rifled barrel and only fires a single projectile is a "rifle" by legal deffinition and not legal below the shotgun line either. so if were going by the states definition and not the DNRs deffinition a bunch of us are violating with 12 and 20 guage "rifles"


 if you would check my post all i said was T7 work very well


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

cataway said:


> if you would check my post all i said was T7 work very well


 i wasnt pokin at ya, i was more responding to the other poster that is kinda saying that if its not coded "pu" it cant be used as a "black powder handgun" during muzzle loader season which is false. this has been beaten and beaten to death.


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

Ricochet Willy said:


> You may want to check that out a little more - If your SAA is actually a first generation Colt you are probably right. If it is a Uberti SAA clone (which I think you posted somewhere) it would not be a black powder handgun. You are just shooting a cartridge that was originally BP.


it is a replica, made off the original patents its less than 10 years old. either way i still use it during black powder season. the dnr agrees with my interpitation of the rules. do a search, there was an update released to officers specifying cartridge handguns and the 45-70 govt specifically mentioned loaded with bp in a contender handgun as legal


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