# bottle kneck cartridge and handguns



## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

i kinda posted this in another thread but ill give it its own

below the shotgun line, the law states no bottle kneck cartridge, 

my 38-40 (is bottlekneck) legal to carry in the field during the firearm deer season below the shotgun line? ive always open carried it during this time but now doing some research i shouldnt, looks like ive been breaking the law?

is a 45-70 (no bottle kneck) on a contender handgun legal below the shotgun line?

38-40,44-40, and 45-70 are all black powder cartidges. if i had a handgun chambered in these and loaded with modern loads, smokeless powder is a comercially made "*modern substitute "*as the law states could they be used during muzzle loader season?


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

bone said:


> i kinda posted this in another thread but ill give it its own
> 
> below the shotgun line, the law states no bottle kneck cartridge,
> 
> my 38-40 (is bottlekneck) legal to carry in the field during the firearm deer season below the shotgun line? ive always open carried it during this time but now doing some research i shouldnt, looks like ive been breaking the law?


Illegal, as you said it is a bottle neck....



bone said:


> is a 45-70 (no bottle kneck) on a contender handgun legal below the shotgun line?


Yes, it is legal.... 




bone said:


> 38-40,44-40, and 45-70 are all black powder cartidges. if i had a handgun chambered in these and loaded with modern loads, smokeless powder is a comercially made "*modern substitute "*as the law states could they be used during muzzle loader season?



Would be illegal in the muzzy season as Smokeless is not a legal substitute under the muzzy rules. 

Would be legal if loaded with Black Powder or substitute. (Pyrodex, 777 or similar).


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

ive been wanting to set up a handgun for hunting for a long time, looks like a contender in 45-70 might be the way to go. except for the fact that i dont like punchin myself in the face :lol:


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

bone said:


> ive been wanting to set up a handgun for a long time, looks like a contender in 45-70 might be the way to go. except for the fact that i dont like punchin myself in the face :lol:


I use a contender pistol for most of my hunting. With the right barrel can hunt everything but, waterfowl.


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

more questions...

i dont hunt with my 38-40 revolver, i do open carry it while hunting. mostly because my grandfather carried it for years and im attached to it now that hes gone. any time im carrying it, im on my own property or private land. 

being as im not hunting with it, even though its a bottlekneck cart. i thought i could still carry it. 

the laws the dnre has set are for hunting with handguns. not handguns being carried for personal protection, is it still legal to open carry it without hunting with it? 

if not im gonna have to get my great uncle to load some cartridges with black powder for me to make it legal to carry anytime


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## foxriver6 (Oct 23, 2007)

bone said:


> more questions...
> 
> i dont hunt with my 38-40 revolver, i do open carry it while hunting. mostly because my grandfather carried it for years and im attached to it now that hes gone. any time im carrying it, im on my own property or private land.
> 
> ...


Open carry is legal in Michigan. You would not fall under hunting rules if there is no attempt to take game. So, no hunting license required and no bottle neck restriction if you are open carrying a pistol and there is no attempt to take game.


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## twohats (Oct 1, 2004)

petronius said:


> Hi. This is my first time posting and I thought I would add a few thoughts. In the shotgun zone, you could carry the 38-40 (bottle-neck shell) concealed with a CPL but you may run into a problem with the hunting rules if open carry. It would be assumed that you are using it to hunt deer, even if it is for protection. Besides, you're already carrying a shotgun. The 44-40 and 45-70 handguns would be ok (stright wall shells). The commercial 38-40, 44-40 and 45-70 loads are loaded with smokeless powder and would not be muzzle loaders since they are brass cartridges(not legal during muzzle season). If you're in the woods with a hunting license, the DNR says you're hunting.


 
45-70 cartriges can be purchased loaded with black powder. Do an internet search and you will find them.


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

the 44-40 does have a very slight bottle neck.

might have to do some reading in our old loading books and load some up w black powder and see what they do...


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## Quack Addict (Aug 10, 2006)

bone said:


> might have to do some reading in our old loading books and load some up w black powder and see what they do...


I researched this topic a while back and there isn't a whole lot to know, other than COMPLETELY fill the cartridge with BP or substitute so there is NO air when the bullet is seated. Dialing in the BP/substitute charge can be tedious as you need to meter out powder by volume, not weight, AND get the charge just right so it's compressed when the bullet is seated. I had been kicking around loading up some BP / Pyrodex loads for 44 Mag but it turned out to be an attraction that quickly passed.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

bone said:


> more questions...
> 
> i dont hunt with my 38-40 revolver, i do open carry it while hunting. mostly because my grandfather carried it for years and im attached to it now that hes gone. any time im carrying it, im on my own property or private land.
> 
> ...


Before this can be properly answered, what kind of hunting, what time of year, do you have a CPL?


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

i do not have a cpl yet

i open carry it year round when im in the woods, either around home or camping with the family but never in public. which as i understand is totally legal.

i believe my only problem open carrying it would be during deer season below the shotgun line. 

even though im carrying a shotgun i am hunting and in possesion of a bottleneck cartridge handgun therefore its not legal to carry without a cpl correct? how is it that a cpl depicts wether your hunting with a handgun or not

i am in no way attempting to take game with it though...im not an expert, anyone have an idea how a co or leo would interpet the law?


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Private or public property makes no difference. We are talking hunting here.

You can not carry a handgun of any type while bow hunting without a cpl.

Talking the shotgun zone, you could not have a handgun or any firearm that uses bottleneck cartridges during the period Nov 10 - Nov 30. If it is a handgun, with bottleneck cartridges between those dates, you must have a cpl. The hunting law doesn't define it as used in hunting but possession of the type of firearm.

Then muzzy season you would be ok with a cpl but without a cpl it would have to shoot black powder of a legal substitute. I don't think I missed anything.


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

thank you...

looks like 38-40 and 44-40 are just cartridges that got lumped in to the no bottle kneck law even though modern streight wall handguns far out perform them. i know its hard for the law to designate specific calibers to be allowed so i guess im stuck. 

i dont so much carry the handgun for anything but nastalgia. it was my grandfathers and he carried it for years during deer season. he lived in rose city. when he died he left them to me with matching model 92 winchesters. so replacing them for carry with a modern streight wall ie 44 mag or .357 to me is irrelevent

ill have to strap on the ole 44 cal navy cap and ball for local hunts, so grand dad is with me....


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

45-70 loaded with black powder IS NOT LEGAL during muzzle loader season.I can't even legaly use my .54 cal. sharps because it loads thru the breach. Muzzle loader season is for guns that load thru the muzzle not the breach.


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## bone (Sep 17, 2010)

what i was refering to is a 45-70 tompson center handgun for black powder season...black powder handguns can be cartridges but must me loaded with bp for muzzy season


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

junkman said:


> 45-70 loaded with black powder IS NOT LEGAL during muzzle loader season.I can't even legaly use my .54 cal. sharps because it loads thru the breach. Muzzle loader season is for guns that load thru the muzzle not the breach.


We are talking a 45/70 PISTOL.... Nothing in the law states a pistol must be loaded from the muzzle. 

Long guns must be loaded from the muzzle to be legal under the muzzy rules.. Thus your sharps would not qualify. 

--------------------
3.101 Deer hunting, open seasons; type of deer that may be taken; carrying of firearms; season limit.

3) ... a person hunting deer with a muzzleloading firearm during the muzzle-loading and black-powder firearms only season shall only possess or carry afield, or take a deer with a muzzle-loading rifle, muzzle-loading shotgun, or black-powder pistol, loaded with black-powder or a commercially manufactured black-powder substitute. 

http://www.michigandnr.com/law/law_book/orders/Wcao.html


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Hi Bone. DNR rules make a distinction between centerfire handguns and black powder handguns (cap and ball). Centerfire would not be legal during muzzel loader season. Straight wall and black powder are ok during firearm deer in shotgun zone. A hunting partner of mine almost got in trouble years ago during muzzel season. He bought a muzzel loading replacement barrel for the Rem 870 shotgun. The CO had never seen one before and was going the confiscate the gun. After in was taken apart, the CO couldn't believe it.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

petronius said:


> Hi Bone. DNR rules make a distinction between centerfire handguns and black powder handguns (cap and ball). Centerfire would not be legal during muzzel loader season. Straight wall and black powder are ok during firearm deer in shotgun zone. A hunting partner of mine almost got in trouble years ago during muzzel season. He bought a muzzel loading replacement barrel for the Rem 870 shotgun. The CO had never seen one before and was going the confiscate the gun. After in was taken apart, the CO couldn't believe it.


Not sure what exactly you are saying but as far as handguns there is no distiction between centerfire and ball & cap. The only requirement for handgun during muzzy season is blackpowder or legal substitude. Your partners experience doesn't pertain to the topic since we are talking handguns.


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## junkman (Jan 14, 2010)

Just looked over the regs and it does state black powder handgun. I still do not think a center fire round is what they mean. I am pretty sure they are refering to cap and ball. Other wise you cuold take any handgun and load shells with black powder. I do not believe that to be the definition of a black powder handgun.Maybe we could get a D.N.R. officer to chime in on this and define a black powder handgun.I would hate to get caught with a semi auto .45 loaded with black powder. Trying to explane how it is legal because it is loaded with black powder.:lol:


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## Petronius (Oct 13, 2010)

Exactly.


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