# Wild Steelhead are in the MO now!



## waterfoul (May 18, 2005)

I think it's safe to say that the Croton, Hardy, and Rogers dams will NOT be removed in any of our lifetimes. 

Someone above said that the energy created by these dams is not green? How is that? Please explain. Not trying to be an a## about it... I just don't understand how energy harnessed from free flowing (dammed) water is not green? Seems to me the only greener energy might be wind or possible solar. But even they leave a footprint on the landscape that some say is offensive.


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

It is doubtful that the bubbler system would work on the Muskegon. But here is the way it works. Cold water is heaviest at about 39 degrees. Water warmer or colder is less dense. As the water warms in summer the water near the bottom stays on the bottom because it is heaviest or more dense.

In any of the above mentioned dams the colder pool of water remains cold throughout the summer. The purpose of the bubblers is to move some of that cold water over the dam when the water going over the dam reaches a set point that is to warm to sustain trout, around 70 degrees. 

It is important to know the infrared rays from the sun only penetrate about 12 inches so the sun only heats the surface water. The moving water in the river is another thing however and temperatures above Rogers Dam often get up to 80+ degrees top to bottom sometimes in June and July. This water because it is lighter stays at the surface, but where it enters the back water it warms the pool up as well.

There is only so much cool water above any dam so the idea is to use it judiciously so it will last through out the year. If the water gets used up to quickly and the river temperatures rise much above 70, all the trout will succumb so it is important to have enough to make it through the entire summer.

Some trout will always make it through the summer because of cold water tributaries or springs but most will not make it.

If there is a test of bubblers, the most important aspect will be how the cold water pool will be used. If the bubbler is used 24/7 the water in the cold pool will be used up long before summer is over and there will be very little carry over.

No matter what they do to the Muskegon, it may never become a year round trout fishery and continue to rely on planting of trout and steel head to maintain a 9 month fishery.

There is no chance for the Grand, a possibility for the Muskegon, and a better chance for the Big Manistee. The danger is, if they conduct tests on the Muskegon and if the test fails, conclude it wont work on the Big Manistee. 

The Big Manistee already had the Pine river, which seldom rises above the mid sixties even in late summer, flowing into the backwaters of Tippy and if they use bubblers at Hoydenpyle and Tippy I think it will work in all but the warmest years. Sometimes the trout in the Big Manistee, especially the brown trout make it through some summers with no bubblers.

Just remember the Muskegon watershed and the Big Manistee watershed are very different in many ways. 

We should all be thankful we have DNR fish biologist Mark Tonello in Cadillac who understands this situation much better than me and is looking out for our best interest. I dont know Rich ONeil who has responsibility for the Muskegon water shed, but from what I do know about him, he makes decisions based on the best science and that is what we want.


----------



## Ron Matthews (Aug 10, 2006)

Splitshot said:


> http://www.consumersenergy.com/apps/pdf/HydroReporter2008.pdf[/url]


----------



## Ron Matthews (Aug 10, 2006)

www.consumersenergy.com/apps/pdf/HydroReporter2008.pdf


----------



## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

> temperatures above Rogers Dam often get up to 80+ degrees top to bottom sometimes in June and July.


Ray thanks for answering this for me before I asked it.I was wondering about this portion of the Mo.I know it probaly wont happen but I would personaly like to see this dam removed.


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Seems like I am a little behind the times on the progress although I knew there was testing going on. I give little credence to the Wildlife Habitat Council and the Audubon Society. I have had some dealings with the latter. Both have a habit of heaping praise on their benefactors.

Consumers Energy has historically not been a friend of sportsmen or the environment but they do a hell of a job in the PR department. Let us hope they have had input from our trained fish biologist who have an excellent understanding of river dynamics.

Thanks for the link Ron, it was very informative and clear.


----------



## Flyfisher (Oct 1, 2002)

waterfoul said:


> Someone above said that the energy created by these dams is not green? How is that? Please explain. Not trying to be an a## about it... I just don't understand how energy harnessed from free flowing (dammed) water is not green? Seems to me the only greener energy might be wind or possible solar. But even they leave a footprint on the landscape that some say is offensive.


Dams create "thermal pollution" by allowing water to pond and warm to levels not ordinarily experienced on certain rivers. They also block the spawning runs of native fish, such as walleye, sturgeon, etc. 

In some cases (read: other states) dams have created wonderful, albeit artificial, year-round trout fisheries. I have had the pleasure of fishing some of these waters, such as the Delaware, Farmington, and Clinch River. I recall fishing 48 degree water on the West Branch of the Delaware on 4th of July weekend many years ago, catching 15'-20' browns on #18 sulfur duns mid-day. In these cases, cold water is drawn from the bottom of deep reservoirs as opposed to the situation Croton, Tippy, and other dams throughout Michigan, where the water going through the turbines is drawn from the surface. I have my doubts that the "bubblers" will ever turn our fisheries into "World Class", as some guides would like to advertise


----------



## Steelhead Addict (Dec 16, 2004)

waterfoul said:


> Someone above said that the energy created by these dams is not green? How is that? Please explain. Not trying to be an a## about it... I just don't understand how energy harnessed from free flowing (dammed) water is not green? Seems to me the only greener energy might be wind or possible solar. But even they leave a footprint on the landscape that some say is offensive.



I think this is a reasonable question..."green" is very subjective. 

I could go into a long tangent on how some things are considered green and are not. look into what it takes to make batteries for the hybrid cars.

I think its very healthy that people are talking about this more. Hopefully we can continue a reasonable transition into a place where we are more sustainable and eco-friendly.

The reason that one shouldn't consider a dam a green technology, look at its overall impact on the environment: Thermo pollution, oxygen levels, concentration of sediment/pollution, as well as general destruction of habitat. 

Another way to look at it; dams are to cold water fish, like piping exhaust from a coal plant into your house. an increase of temp..replace breathable o2 with other compounds.

The Muskegon used to naturally sustain a large grayling and brook trout populations. Logging had a huge impact...but the final blows were the impoundments and over fishing by man.


----------



## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

Ron Matthews said:


> www.consumersenergy.com/apps/pdf/HydroReporter2008.pdf


Excellent and interesting read Thanks Ron mathews


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

While you are on the right track, logging is responsible for the river today. Even if there were no dams on the entire watershed the river would still be to warm to sustain trout.

To bring it back, all dams would have to be removed, the river would have to be narrowed and trees would have to be planted on the new banks. 

I have fished the upper section several times and there is much gravel. I envisioned a huge shovel on tracks snaking its way up the current channel scooping out a new channel and building new banks where trees could be planted on both sides of the new channel. What do you think of that plan? lol

Anyway I don't blame sportsfihermen for any of the river problems but the dams certainly had an impact. We must consider however that these dams brought electricity to the area and created jobs which helped develop northern Michigan. It wasn't all bad.

I remember my dad telling me that the road from Grand Rapids to Baldwin was gravel and ended in Baldwin. The house I live in on the Little Manistee was built with lumber delivered by train before any roads when the river was full of grayling.

While there are no grayling left, the river is still full of trout so progress is being made. The bigger rivers like the Muskegon and Big Manistee are much longer, drain a much bigger watershed and will take many years to recover. The good news is that there are about 120 organizations working on individual rivers and is why the fishing is better now than any time in my lifetime and I caught my first trout in 1949.

Besides many individuals, thanks is in order for the DNR, organizations like Conservation Resourde Alliance and many other partners including many northern county road commissions and many other professionals. Great progress is being made and you can help by joining one of the many organizations. Just pick your favorite river and sign up.


----------



## MDNRFD (Nov 18, 2008)

Great post spiltshot,

while I do see still to this day some problem areas you gotta admit its getting better.


----------



## Benzie Rover (Mar 17, 2008)

axisgear said:


> Very true! I know of two tributaries to the Grand which have Burbot in them....They typically live at the bottom of deep/clear lakes and need cold CLEAN water to flourish! I have yet to find them in ANY other river system.
> 
> Grand,indeed!


 Axis- Lota lota are actually present in the majority of streams that connect to Lake Michigan and they are not alays tied to premier trout water... for example, the Big South Branch of the Pm has tons of them... it is decent trout water, but in definatley not optimum. You usually find the burbot tucked into under cut banks and back eddies with lots of woody debris... they love to hang out in tree roots growing into river. Somehow they seem to use the tribs as nurseries for their young, but how they get up there, I have NO idea... you never see adults in the streams, so perhaps they migrate up when they are small, and I know they spawn out in Lake michigan in the later winter, so I have no idea what their life cycle story is all about... but I do know that if you shock most any stream that connects to the big lake, you will find a boat load of le burbo... I have alwasy been interested in an good fisheries explanaition of how their life cycle works... hopefully some grad student will take that on one of these days... 

Steelhead addict- Actually, the MO never had wild brookies... infact, I do not know of any streams in the lower peninsula that had pre-settlement brookies, from what i have read, we brought them down from the UP... our anadromous salmonids were actually all in the whitefish side of the salmonidae world... grayling and lake whitefish used rivers connected to the big lake to spawn, as did some segments of the lake trout (char) population, but I have yet to see evidence of brookies existing below the bridge. I only bring that up because it is a very common mis-conception to think brookies are native to our 'trout' streams down here, whereas they are no more native than the brownies in most cases.


----------



## itchn2fish (Dec 15, 2005)

Benzie Rover knows his feesh. Very well put.


----------



## Steelhead Addict (Dec 16, 2004)

Benzie Rover said:


> Steelhead addict- Actually, the MO never had wild brookies... infact, I do not know of any streams in the lower peninsula that had pre-settlement brookies, from what i have read, we brought them down from the UP... our anadromous salmonids were actually all in the whitefish side of the salmonidae world... grayling and lake whitefish used rivers connected to the big lake to spawn, as did some segments of the lake trout (char) population, but I have yet to see evidence of brookies existing below the bridge. I only bring that up because it is a very common mis-conception to think brookies are native to our 'trout' streams down here, whereas they are no more native than the brownies in most cases.


wow that is interesting to hear and it makes sense as you explain it. Can you comment on the state of the sturgeon population in the Muskegon? I heard that the number of breeding age sturgeon returning to this system is getting so low that the population may crash. 

I guess the point to take way from the discussion was that the muskegon used to be a cold water stream and was able to support a populations of cold water species. Unfortunately, there were a series of "developments" logging, impoundments, river improvements, and etc. that altered the habitat in such a way that it now is a marginal or cool watershed. 

I know that a lot of strides have been made in conservation and habitat improvement. Heck, I guess its a huge improvement where we significantly scaled back the dumping industrial waste / chemicals into our environment. However, it sure feels like more should be done. The whole re-licensing / compliance thing is a bit of an issue.

I know that we cannot "undo" or go back to the pre-settlement state. However, more should be done to help offset the catastrophic changes in the river environment. Additionally, there should be longer term plans to slowly "restore" the environment as best as we can. it seems that the attitudes are that these dams are going to be around for ever. I love to see these systems setting aside a portion of their revenues for "sunsetting" these systems in the future. Otherwise, we are going to stick the future generations with that problem.


----------



## bombcast (Sep 16, 2003)

back to the original post, did this guide's site say anything like "combover and catch our wild steelhead?"


----------



## Flyfisher (Oct 1, 2002)

bombcast said:


> back to the original post, did this guide's site say anything like "combover and catch our wild steelhead?"


:lol:


----------



## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

bombcast said:


> back to the original post, did this guide's site say anything like "combover and catch our wild steelhead?"


ROTFLMAO!!!! :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## bombcast (Sep 16, 2003)

that never gets old, does it? :lol:

What an ultra-maroon.


----------



## quest32a (Sep 25, 2001)

bombcast said:


> that never gets old, does it? :lol:
> 
> What an ultra-maroon.


Nope it really doesn't get old...LOL


----------



## Steelhead Addict (Dec 16, 2004)

nice way to lighten it up... 


Just checked....still funny.


----------



## thousandcasts (Jan 22, 2002)

All this wild steelhead talk reminds me of a post I did on another site a few years ago. Some poor guy posted a report about getting a couple steelhead from the lower PM and how they made a good meal over the campfire. In typical fashion, here comes the barrage of posts just ripping this guy for keeping fish out of the PM from any section.

So, I waited about a week and came up with some alias like "skein hog" or something like that and I posted a "report" about a week on the PM. I went on to say that the fishing was hot and that I managed to rope up a limit of hens each day for the five days I was make believe reporting on. I made sure they knew that 'ol skein hog was proud of himself since he had a good supply of fresh steelhead skein to get him through his pier fishing. Based on some of the comments posted there after, I am 100% certain than some of those guys choked on their Nature bars and fell on the floor in convulsions. Some of the posts were:

"I'm absolutely speechless" 

"This is the most horrifying thing I've ever read."

And my favorite: "Hey idiot, don't you know all those fish are wild?" 

I replied to that one:

"Hell yeah those fish are wild--they was jumping and pulling line all over the place!"

The whole thing got pulled shortly after that... :evilsmile:lol:


----------



## bombcast (Sep 16, 2003)

you should be ashamed of yerself:lol:


----------



## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

thousandcasts said:


> All this wild steelhead talk reminds me of a post I did on another site a few years ago. Some poor guy posted a report about getting a couple steelhead from the lower PM and how they made a good meal over the campfire. In typical fashion, here comes the barrage of posts just ripping this guy for keeping fish out of the PM from any section.
> 
> So, I waited about a week and came up with some alias like "skein hog" or something like that and I posted a "report" about a week on the PM. I went on to say that the fishing was hot and that I managed to rope up a limit of hens each day for the five days I was make believe reporting on. I made sure they knew that 'ol skein hog was proud of himself since he had a good supply of fresh steelhead skein to get him through his pier fishing. Based on some of the comments posted there after, I am 100% certain than some of those guys choked on their Nature bars and fell on the floor in convulsions. Some of the posts were:
> 
> ...


Hence now everytime someone hits a fish in the boat, they exclaim "F yeh it's wild...look at it jumping all over the place":lol: Well that and Steve's typical, "fish on mother f'er":lol:


----------



## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

Do you know what the good thing is about wild steelhead?






























They still fry up or smoke like planted ones:lol:


----------



## riverman (Jan 9, 2002)

stinger63 said:


> Do you know what the good thing is about wild steelhead?


That maybe there are a couple streams left in the state that can actually produce one???




"The Muskegon River receives one of the largest Fall and Winter Steelhead populations of wild Steelhead in the Great Lakes Region. Trophy wild Steelhead are available in good numbers during November, December, January, February, March, and April. Spring Steelhead are available in April, May & June." 




Still have a hard time believing guides other than combover would promote hatchery fish as wild. Times we live in I guess.


----------



## Flyfisher (Oct 1, 2002)

riverman said:


> "The Muskegon River receives one of the largest Fall and Winter Steelhead populations of wild Steelhead in the Great Lakes Region. Trophy wild Steelhead are available in good numbers during November, December, January, February, March, and April. Spring Steelhead are available in April, May & June."


Yeah, the numbers are probably way better than the overstocked Lake Erie tribs of Ohio

edit:yeah, June is killer for steelhead on the Mo...hehehe!


----------



## Fishbone (Oct 10, 2008)

*Quote from guide service site:*


> "The Muskegon River receives one of the largest Fall and Winter Steelhead populations of wild Steelhead in the Great Lakes Region. Trophy wild Steelhead are available in good numbers during November, December, January, February, March, and April. Spring Steelhead are available in April, May & June."




*Translation:*



> "The Muskegon River receives one of the largest return rates of hatchery planted non fin clipped 'Wild Steelhead' in the Great Lakes Region. These trophy hatchery planted non fin clipped 'Wild Steelhead' are available in good numbers during November, December, January, February, March, and April. Spring Steelhead are available in April, May & June.""


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Fin clipped or not fin clipped all the steelhead come from wild parents. Steelhead are not raised generation after generation in a hatchery like trout.

To put a premium on steelhead without fin clips is just silly.


----------



## 1mainiac (Nov 23, 2008)

Perhaps since the dams won't be removed during any of our lifetimes we should at least look into replanting trees along the banks. Any of us that have fished the river for many years know of probably hundreds of areas where some idiot has removed all the trees so they have a better view of the river. This adds to erosion problems and removes shade from the river. Nearly every report on our river down fall I have ever read starts with removing all the trees that used to provide shade along the river banks. Are there many Brook trout streams that are not completely under tree canopy or at least mostly. In the 40 to 50 years before we can actually see the dams removed a manditory reforestation along the river banks could have a positive effect on lowering water temp. The road leading down to the boat luanch at the 131 over pass used to be a 2 track leading to a trail along the river it was always completed shaded there now it is a all concrete and parking no shade and instead of protecting the river from sunlight it is a heat sink. The trout used to lay in pools in the shade along the banks. Replace the shade and some of them will return. There are thousands of springs feeding cold water into the river but with no shade it just warms up as it slides over the gravel on its way down stream.


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

Planting trees is great and does halp a lot. On the Little Manistee most of the trees have grown back since the logging days, but the erosion has widened the river so much that in most spots it won't help much.

Somehow we need to narrow the river back to what it was like before logging and that is a major challenge. The recommended way to proceed is to start at the head waters, remove all dams on the tributaries, narrow the river, stabilize the banks by planting vegetation.

That is of course after experts study the watershed and determine the feasibility and what to expect in the end.


----------



## WhiteyNorris (Dec 29, 2008)

You bring up the Little Manistee...not to get off topic...but I agree...erosion has almost killed that river. Where has the depth and current gone on the Little M??? It is such a sandy river that all the holes have filled in...it has changed (for the worse) so much just in my lifetime! All the structure to create depth has been cut or pulled to accomodate bed rakers and canoes. I'll go out on a limb here (I dont have the facts) and say that a decrease in rain/snow fall in past years hasn't allowed the river to "wash itself out" either. I know I'd like to see more trees, less erosion, and more structure in some of our most prized trout streams. So where does a guy like me go to help in the battle to make this happen? I would focus on the Little M if someone knows of a group that I can join to actually make things happen instead of just talking about making things happen.


----------



## WhiteyNorris (Dec 29, 2008)

Advertising is a funny business. I don't blame the guides for wording their services a certain way to help business...if some guys want to pay to go fishing, thats fine by me. A 10lb. steelhead, regardless of whether it's "wild" or planted, still makes the heart skip a beat as it sizzles line downstream, jumping 4 feet out the water. And they all make for great pictures, chromed up or colored. Just being on the river fishing is a beautiful thing...and we're all lucky to have such a greaty fishery here in Michigan.

Up in Seward, Alaska they plant King Salmon at two locations in town - so each year the locals (and tourists) get a run of fish back to these spots where they can legally snag. Trust me...its a site to be seen...hooks flying everywhere...guys using 100lb. test, tightening right down on a 30lb. king that isn't tired at all because he's been hooked for all of 5 seconds. Its fun just to watch!!! Anyways...the point of the story. They have planted the fish to take the fishing pressure off of the native run of king salmon in that area...and I think it works. I'm here to tell you...using light line (our steelhead rods), its just as fun to catch those "planted" kings as it would be to catch the natives. They eat just as good too!

Wild or not...man I love fishing for steelhead. I hope we never lose this fishery here in Michigan!


----------



## stinger63 (Nov 25, 2003)

> [Wild or not...man I love fishing for steelhead. I hope we never lose this fishery here in Michigan/QUOTE]
> 
> AMEN TO THAT


----------



## MT406 (Nov 18, 2007)

WhiteyNorris said:


> Up in Seward, Alaska they plant King Salmon at two locations in town - so each year the locals (and tourists) get a run of fish back to these spots where they can legally snag. Trust me...its a site to be seen...hooks flying everywhere...guys using 100lb. test, tightening right down on a 30lb. king that isn't tired at all because he's been hooked for all of 5 seconds. Its fun just to watch!!!


Sounds like the Michigan I remember before I moved. Dirtsnakes snagging rotten salmon and raping steelhead off of redds. I'll hold back all my other thoughts on this thread


----------



## Splitshot (Nov 30, 2000)

******

go to http://www.lmwcc.org/default.htm and sign up. The Little Manistee organization is open to everyone.

I don't know when you last visited the river but the watershed council has done much to repair the banks and restore them. Most of them throughout the watershed have been repaired and the work continues.

Joining the council will help you and the river.


----------



## yippy (Dec 22, 2004)

For what its worth I have seen Burbot in the MO while bow fishing carp at night. He was sure ticked when hit with the spot light as well, probably move more at night than day??


----------



## WhiteyNorris (Dec 29, 2008)

Splitshot,

I appreciate the link...I'll look into it. I've been fishing the river for as long as I can remember...so I hope I can give back after all that it has given to me.


----------



## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

Hodenpyle Dam on the Big Manistee R. does have a bubbler system installed. I'm not sure if Croton Dam has it installed or not, but it is supposed to have one I believe.

The problem with the Hodenpyle bubbler is that it is NOT BEING USED. It has been in place for two years and except for a test run has not been used.




Splitshot said:


> ******
> 
> 
> 
> go to http://www.lmwcc.org/default.htm and sign up. The Little Manistee organization is open to everyone.




Joe wrote another fine article. Towards the end the Natural Rivers Act is mentioned. It is a valuable tool for protecting our rivers. A few years ago the Upper Big Manistee and Pine rivers were slated to be designated as Natural Rivers. Despite rabid, emotional, and ill-conceived opposition by many landowners along these rivers as well as some politicians, including the House speaker who was from Osceola County, both rivers were so designated.

With the anti-government mindset of many it is laws such as the Natural Rivers Act, as well as the praiseworthy efforts of local groups of interested anglers and landowners and the organizations they form that are key to protecting our streams.


----------

