# Why not to buy MotorGuide.



## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

LLSSt Clair said:


> Should of went with my gut and got the minnkota. Instead I went ahead with the repair. Wonderland messed up. Got the unit back with new lower unit, shaft, power cord and pinpoint gps. Even though pinpoint gps worked before taking into wonderland.
> 
> When picking I told guys at wonderland that wanted to take it for a test drive and they laughed it off. Said everything is good assumed the tech made sure it was good.
> 
> ...


I'd get BBB involved if they don't make it right.
That's not good....


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

I'm in Hamilton. Near Holland.

Going to pick up the motor from DandR sports right now. They say nothing is wrong.

Shoulda bought MK...


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

85 dollar service charge. 160 total minutes of driving plus gas. and the TM is still a POS.

My total cost of ownership of this thing is now beyond the cost of an equivalent Minn Kota

Called MG CS on the way home, and all they say is that it shouldn't trip the breaker, to take it back to the service center. No way! Not bringjng it back there!

Im gonna just drive it an hope it bites the big one before the 2 year warranty expires.

I doubt ole D and R sports put much effort i to it. Be surprised if they stuck it in a tank.

I mentioned using a DC ammeter, and they said, hey thats a good idea.... yup. The official service center didn't check the actual amp draw of a trolling motor that is tripping a breaker! 

I'm steamed. Junk products, and junk service. It seems that way wherever ya go these days.

Thanks Motor Guide and D and R sports! Real classy!


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

🤦🏻‍♂️ sickening!


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## Minner (Apr 4, 2020)

I had horrible service from D&R Sports years ago when I had a a new Yamaha outboard giving me issues, which ended up being a missing component to the fuel system during assembly. 

They told me I needed a Yamaha brand gas tank, that was the issue lol, nope.... Some guy from Wisconsin at a marina that I wish I could remember the name of helped me figure it out over the phone, shipped me the part under a warranty claim and issue solved.

Oh almost forgot, D&R Sports wrecked my boat while it was there too, new guy didn't know how to drive the tractor, ran a bunch of boats out in the yard into eachother... Had to file an insurance claim, they paid for my boat cover to be repaired, was a mess, brand new boat...

I wouldn't suggest D&R to anyone, ever...

I love my Minn Kota Ulterra...


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## Minner (Apr 4, 2020)

Also, I would call your credit card company and dispute the charges, they didn't fix the issue...


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## LLSSt Clair (Apr 15, 2016)

GRUNDY said:


> 85 dollar service charge. 160 total minutes of driving plus gas. and the TM is still a POS.
> 
> My total cost of ownership of this thing is now beyond the cost of an equivalent Minn Kota
> 
> ...


Well back from my trip, that pinpoint gps would of been nice but we managed. Ended up 4 for 8 on salmon and used a row boat to get some nighttime top water smallie action in a few rivers.

Well man we are literally in the same boat. Lol
I feel your frustration, unfortunate but better knowing I’m not the only one, this crap product and customer service ( motorguide and authorized sub certified repair shops, is something people should consider when choosing products.

update: called wonderland today to follow up on the bad gps and options for making it right. I’m also 1 away, can I charge the hr rate the tech charged me for not fixing my unit wasting my time?? That’s gonna be a hard no I imagine. 


But Power is out and they think it will be back on Thursday. No way to access my info and most people are out of the building.

We will see what they say if and when I get a call back but looking to dispute charges if they don’t make it good.


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## Minner (Apr 4, 2020)

Is there a way to calibrate the gps on that unit? I know with Minn Kota, you can calibrate it if it ever gets off. JUst thinking outside the box here, but might be worth a shot to look into it. It's easy to do on the Minn Kota's, I did it when I fist got the unit, been money ever since.

Also as far as the Minn Kota goes, there are videos on YouTube on how to replace basically every single part of that unit on your own and parts are readily available online. Once my unit is out of warranty this would be the route I personally would go, I fish enough I will have any major parts that could go bad other than the transducer and motor, always on hand to swap out on my own right away to get me back on the water ASAP.


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

Still trips breaker... Good thing my boys are good at resetting it.

There has to be something like a bad bearing or brush or whatever in the motor. You get 13 clicks from stopped to max speed and if you run it past 6 it will eventually trip. If you keep it around 6 or less and it will run without tripping.

Maybe I'll bust into it? You can Tell ole D nad R has no interest in actually fixing it. They probably get hosed on the labor.

I will try to never spend another dime there again!

I doubt motorguide will accept the 160 bucks per hour they charge me.

Its super frustrating being stuck. Unless I want to drive over an hour one way to try another shop.

Fortunately, I guess, is the fact the rest of the features I use seem to work without issue.


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

Raise Kain until it's right!
Snap that CC off in their hind ends.....
🤬


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## Minner (Apr 4, 2020)

It just may be that the breaker is worn out, they like to trip easy when they are going bad.

I would also check the connections for all of your power cables, from the battery all the way to the trolling motor.

If none of that is the issue, it's obviously in the trolling motor, but if you check these things, at least you can go in guns blazing knowing the issue isn't on you.

P.S. make sure you take the trolling motor prop off and check for fishing line, the added resistance of crap wrapped around your prop shaft could theoretically cause this.


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

I've never seen this with any breaker - but I've seen them tripping because the wire gauge was too light.
I've wired a lot of boats over the years - and a few AC circuits and typically a breaker almost never fails and they just quit when they do - and then they usually won't reset. Through it sounds possible - the odds have to be extremely small. 

I'm using 4/0 for most of the run to mine which is way overkill but I wanted to ensure I wouldn't have connectivity problems with the TM.
The only downside besides the extra cost, is counting on your breaker to work right or there could be smoke!


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

I would like to install new ring terminals. I bought marine grade ones, and they dont seem to have the bite of reg ring terminals. There is not a lot of crimp surface. 

Per Motor Guide I up sized the positive cable from Battery to breaker. The negative lead is directfrom motor to the battery. All crimps and connections are TIGHT.

There is NO fishing line or other debris behind the prop.

Its been suggested by D and R that my aluminum bench seat boat is too big for the 52lbs of thrust???

I find this highly unlikely. I also believe this should not cause the breaker to trip, rather just poor performance if it were the case.


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## Minner (Apr 4, 2020)

Saying your boat is too big for that trolling motor is 100% BS, that’s about as intelligent as them telling me my Yamaha outboard wasn’t running right because I didn’t have a Yamaha gas tank. They just want to sell you something.


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

When I do ANY install, they're all soldered - no crimps ever...
It's not worth the troubleshooting!


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

sfw1960 said:


> I've never seen this with any breaker - but I've seen them tripping because the wire gauge was too light.


Wire that is too small INCREASES resistance, which DECREASES current. There is no logical reason why undersized wire would cause a breaker to trip.

Breakers, as thermal devices, DO have a limited life span. Too many overcurrent events and they get easier and easier to trip.



sfw1960 said:


> When I do ANY install, they're all soldered - no crimps ever...
> It's not worth the troubleshooting!


I tend to to do both - but realistically, in any vibratory environment a correctly done crimp connection is significantly MORE robust than a soldered connection. They generally don't allow soldering in aerospace due to the hard junction stress riser caused by the solder wicking.


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## 6Speed (Mar 8, 2013)

Lol


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

pescadero said:


> Wire that is too small INCREASES resistance, which DECREASES current. There is no logical reason why undersized wire would cause a breaker to trip.
> 
> Breakers, as thermal devices, DO have a limited life span. Too many overcurrent events and they get easier and easier to trip.
> 
> ...


Well.... 

You're right that resistance increases but that also REDUCES current carrying capacity , which in turn causes more heat in the conductor - NVM the effects on the inductance & capacitance of the conductor



Short version ~ the wiring gets hot and further reduces the ability of the wire to carry needed current. You can actually run a 24v TM on 12v but the motor windings get hot and angry, and that's a condition that WILL cause fires and breakers will pop under such conditions.

Sixx, you have your resistance backwards!
lower resistance increases voltage and or current (without going into CC or CV circuitry)... 

As far as soldering, I still use the good old bad for everything 60/40 - the new crap is too brittle and I've yet to have a failure with 60/40 and multiple layers of HS tubing.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

sfw1960 said:


> Well....
> 
> You're right that resistance increases but that also REDUCES current carrying capacity , which in turn causes more heat in the conductor - NVM the effects on the inductance & capacitance of the conductor


ODL no.

Heat (within reason) does not effect the capacitance and inductance of a conductor. It only affects the resistance.




sfw1960 said:


> Short version ~ the wiring gets hot and further reduces the ability of the wire to carry needed current.



The wiring gets hot and further reduces the ability of the wire to carry needed current... while at the same time reducing the current.



sfw1960 said:


> You can actually run a 24v TM on 12v but the motor windings get hot and angry, and that's a condition that WILL cause fires and breakers will pop under such conditions.


If we're talking about a brushed motor - running a 24V motor on 12V will make the motor run COOLER, because it will be operating at only 25% power when set at full speed (assuming the motor isn't using a shaft driven cooling fan, which a TM is not). 


Now - if we're talking a brushless motor with field coils instead of permanent magnets - things can get really, really strange depedning on the topology of the speed controller.




sfw1960 said:


> As far as soldering, I still use the good old bad for everything 60/40 - the new crap is too brittle and I've yet to have a failure with 60/40 and multiple layers of HS tubing.


I've been using 63/37 instead of 60/40 lately because last few times I bought a spool Kester 44 was $60/lb in 62/38 and $85/lb for 60/40... and there is functionally no difference, so why blow an extra $75-$100 a year out of my budget?

For SMT reflow I generally use Chipquik 63/37 in T3 particle size with no clean flux.


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## 6Speed (Mar 8, 2013)

...


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## Shoeman (Aug 26, 2000)

Isn’t there a place where you can leave a (bad) review that will be noticed by the Companies involved?

Most reply to such bad publicity


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

sfw1960 said:


> A harbor freight DVM would be good enough for that if you don't have any meter, you would see a pretty decent voltage drop if you're not getting ample current carrying capacity, for heavy current you would need a meter with a heavy shunt or a clamp meter that's good for reading up to about a hundred amps or better.


This is the answer - first thing to do:

DVM + hall effect clamp current meter.

Without knowing what voltage looks like at the battery and motor, and how much current is being drawn - it's pretty impossible to make any assessment of what is going on.




sfw1960 said:


> inadequate conductors get hot and this includes motor windings and harnesses supplying power.


Absolutely - but barring a short they generally don't cause excess current draw. 

If you can access all the wiring - just put a hand on it, and see if any of it is getting hot to the touch.


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

None of the wiring gets hot.

I'm going to take a voltage on the battery when at full speed in the water. Out of the water there is only 0.13 VDC drop at full speed 12.68 VDC off to 12.55VDC full speed. There is .33VDC drop across the breaker. Which would mean the trolling motor is being fed 12.2 volts at full speed.

I don't have a hall effect clamp meter, and the motor ohms infinite when its not powered. So I can't use ohms law to estimate current draw.

Its a 12v group 29D battery, big one. Should have plenty of power. Considering the motor is now faulting off, then turning back on without tripping the breaker now tells me its most likely a motor issue. As I figured...

My best bet is that the motors takes a big deuce before the 2 year warranty. Or I can somehow get CS to send me a new motor. Fat chance.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

GRUNDY said:


> None of the wiring gets hot.
> 
> I'm going to take a voltage on the battery when at full speed in the water. Out of the water there is only 0.13 VDC drop at full speed 12.68 VDC off to 12.55VDC full speed. There is .33VDC drop across the breaker. Which would mean the trolling motor is being fed 12.2 volts at full speed.


That drop across the breaker seems a bit high - but may be within spec. Generally numbers around 150mV at rated current would be more common, but I believe the SAE spec allows up to about 0.8V at rated current.

Thing is - out of the water even at full speed is nowhere near full current draw.

...and depending on wire resistance, and how far the breaker is from the motor - it doesn't mean the trolling motor is being fed 12.2 volts.



GRUNDY said:


> I don't have a hall effect clamp meter, and the motor ohms infinite when its not powered. So I can't use ohms law to estimate current draw.


You're not seeing the motor resistance - you're seeing the motor driver electronics (probably a giant MOSFET).

The Motorguide Xi5 is a brushed motor system - so if you actually were reading the leads to the motor itself (as opposed to the power feed into the electronics), you would see a resistance (but it wouldn't be useful for calculating loaded current draw).

The only way to get a good current measurement is either a clamp on meter, or low resistance shunt. 

If you know what the breaker is - and the manufacturer actually provides IV curves - you could figure out the resistance of the breaker and use it as a current shunt to measure current draw.

I'd just go to Home Depot/Lowes, buy a clamp on DC ammeter, and return it when I was done.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

pescadero said:


> That drop across the breaker seems a bit high - but may be within spec. Generally numbers around 150mV at rated current would be more common, but I believe the SAE spec allows up to about 0.8V at rated current.
> 
> Thing is - out of the water even at full speed is nowhere near full current draw.
> 
> ...


Would autozone or the like have meters available for rent?


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

I also thought the drop seemed a bit high but wasn't sure. Never had a reason to check before.

The calculated voltage at the motor would be near equivalent of 50% battery.

I should just stop being cheap and buy the DC ammeter... lol


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

GRUNDY said:


> I should just stop being cheap and buy the DC ammeter... lol


A cheap one only runs about $75.


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

pescadero said:


> A cheap one only runs about $75.


Not bad if you're going to use it more than once a decade.


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## pescadero (Mar 31, 2006)

sureshot006 said:


> Not bad if you're going to use it more than once a decade.


I've got a Tamura L08P100D15 100A hall effect current sensor I need to build a little circuit around so I have one...


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## sureshot006 (Sep 8, 2010)

pescadero said:


> I've got a Tamura L08P100D15 100A hall effect current sensor I need to build a little circuit around so I have one...


Yeah I'm thinking your return suggestion, while kinda sorta shady is a decent option for a tool that will be purchased just for this and used once or twice.


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## LLSSt Clair (Apr 15, 2016)

GRUNDY said:


> None of the wiring gets hot.
> 
> I'm going to take a voltage on the battery when at full speed in the water. Out of the water there is only 0.13 VDC drop at full speed 12.68 VDC off to 12.55VDC full speed. There is .33VDC drop across the breaker. Which would mean the trolling motor is being fed 12.2 volts at full speed.
> 
> ...



Where did you buy your unit. If your still under warranty take it back for a replacement. Oh but if I was u I wouldn’t want a replacement. Take one piece of crap and trade it for another. Request a refund and spread the word motorguide is for losers and those who have more money to waste than time to fish. 

Did I mention wonderland marine in Howell does the same as motorcrap. I work my butt off for my money, may be ok for some but don’t sit well with this low middle class east side guy.


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## Crestliner 16 (Aug 28, 2019)

I would imagine that if it is still under warranty, a return and refund is in order. I have Never had an issue with MK! 
When I traded my old transom mount 28# for a Terrova, MK sent me a credit for another 20% discount. This was one of the first gen, and priced at $1500.00 ,I ended up only paying $1179.00. 
HB,has also been great. I had trouble with my zero lines card loading on my computer, and they sent me the wrong card,the Great Lakes mapping card. I called CS, and they sent a zero lines card and told me to keep the Great Lakes card!
Since I figured out what I was doing wrong with zero lines card,I now have two of them. 
I bought an MG years ago and had nothing but problems with it. I wouldn't own another one, after they refused to honor the warranty. Luckily I didn't pay much for it, as it was the last one in stock. I knew the owner of the sporting goods store and he knocked off almost half of the price. Good luck to you.


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## sfw1960 (Apr 7, 2002)

Crestliner 16 said:


> I would imagine that if it is still under warranty, a return and refund is in order. I have Never had an issue with MK!
> When I traded my old transom mount 28# for a Terrova, MK sent me a credit for another 20% discount. This was one of the first gen, and priced at $1500.00 ,I ended up only paying $1179.00.
> HB,has also been great. I had trouble with my zero lines card loading on my computer, and they sent me the wrong card,the Great Lakes mapping card. I called CS, and they sent a zero lines card and told me to keep the Great Lakes card!
> Since I figured out what I was doing wrong with zero lines card,I now have two of them.
> I bought an MG years ago and had nothing but problems with it. I wouldn't own another one, after they refused to honor the warranty. Luckily I didn't pay much for it, as it was the last one in stock. I knew the owner of the sporting goods store and he knocked off almost half of the price. Good luck to you.


Sounds about right!
JOI has been very good to me also, a retired charter Cap'n owns one of my old HB 999's and it's still going (talked to him last October IIRC, he's in Ohio) - that was a warranty replacement for a 998c SI and the nice lady gave me a full two years warranty on that one (too)!
Hey, a guy's gotta have a few secrets! 🤣

When I run out of reasons to buy the stuff I've been treated well with, I'll probably look elsewhere besides MG.


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## GRUNDY (Jun 18, 2005)

Update:

Before taking drastic action. I re-crimped ALL electrical connections and replaced the breaker.

The trolling motor will now run without tripping the breaker. I took a pretty long cruise into a stout headwind with the motor on HIGH. No hiccups, no tripped breakers nothing.

So, I have to give motorguide some credit. I have a functioning TM with spot lock for at least 2 hundo less than a MK TM.

I bought a large crimper with rotating die sets for different gauge wire instead of hand crimping the connections when I re- crimped. 

I still find it strange that the crew at D and R could not find anything wrong...


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## Crestliner 16 (Aug 28, 2019)

Having the right tool for the job makes it much easier. I worked on the line gang in a steel mill for a few years, and there wasn't much wire that would be used for a boat, or even at home. We would always use a hydraulic crimper. That can be a very difficult task when 90 feet up in a man lift.
I'm lucky enough to have a couple of guys that do nothing but boat work. I just take what I need crimped over and they take care of it in just a few minutes. When I moved my batteries, I took my boat over and they ran new wires to everything. These guys are always super busy, but my boat is like a little toy for them. They do a lot of the new Vexus boats along with repairing, rewiring for any electronics. 
Hope you get this straightened out with the gps.


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