# Home Protection



## Chuckgrmi (Nov 6, 2007)

Looking for some Imput

I'm looking to buy a handgun for home protection. Not for CCW

I'm debating between this Beretta 9000S in 9mm.









and this Colt.327 mag. revolver. I'm also thinking S&W 636 in .38









I'm looking for somethig quick and easy to use. I am a little concerned about finding the safety on the Beretta in the dark at 2:00 in the morning.

I haven't had any hands on with either gun yet.

Any comments would be appreciated

Thanks

Chuck


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## sneakboxer (Oct 28, 2006)

I'm looking for somethig quick and easy to use. I am a little concerned about finding the safety on the Beretta in the dark at 2:00 in the morning.

The above is a very good consern. This could be over come with training or a double action pistol. The wheel gun is pretty fool-poof but, i would not rule out SIG, glock, Springfield, HK, and a bunch more. 

IMO the pistol is only used to get to a long gun. If i only had one firearm to defend my family at hallway range i'd chose a 12ga 870 with #4buck or 00buck.

If you can get to a rental range i'd try as many guns as you can before you buy one.

And as with any defence wepon, practice, practice, practice.
Good luck and stay safe,


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## POLARBEAR (May 13, 2002)

Look at a glock in .45 caliber. It will cost a few more $ but is a much better gun imo.


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## Lakerunner (Mar 9, 2008)

My go to gun at home is a Glock 19 w/ 15 rd mag, also keep a 2nd mag handy (ya never know). I've actually have several handguns hidden/avail at both ends of the house.
I put a lot of target rounds thru guns and 9mm not too expensive.


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## Quaaack (Nov 22, 2007)

sneakboxer said:


> IMO the pistol is only used to get to a long gun. If i only had one firearm to defend my family at hallway range i'd chose a 12ga 870 with #4buck or 00buck.
> 
> If you can get to a rental range i'd try as many guns as you can before you buy one.
> 
> ...


 
If you truely want a side arm for "Home Protection" don't bother.

As Sneakboxer states an 870 12ga with extended magazine tube loaded with #4 or 00 buck is unbeatable. Pleanty of knock down power and you don't have to be extremely accurate. The sound of the slide on a pump chambering a round should be enough of a deterant to get any moron out of your house in the middle of the night with out even discharging a shell. 

If this will be the only application of this firearm purchase opt for the 12ga.


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

I agree about looking into something other than a handgun if you only want it for home.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

For home protection get a 12 gauge shotgun. In most cases a person that does nto train regularly will not shoot accurately. That is when a shotgun loaded with shot not a slug is best for protection. 

Get an 870 with the shortest barrel possible with full choke. Load it with 7 birdshot( so you do not penetrate walls). At the range your going to need to shoot someone at this will work great. Also you can deck it out with a flashlight that has a switch on the pump action. This is a great thing so you do not need to turn lights on ( which give up your position). 

Remember in home defense you know the lay out of your house. Because your in it everyday. You should be able to move through your house undetected in the dark. There for you have no need to turn lights on when you have an intruder in your house. Which leaves you in the concealment of the dark.


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## walleyeman2006 (Sep 12, 2006)

........every one knows the sound of a 12 guage racking......:yikes: very good point and unless your going to take some training or put a few thousand rounds through a hand gun.....i wouldnt do it......personally i go with 12 gauge 95lb rot lab mix combo lol


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Here's a thought...

For home protection, get an home security system with audible alarm and cellular phone dial to the cop shop, then back it up with a K frame at bedside.

I know, pretty boring. This will likely eliminate your John Wayne moment in history.

Revolvers are so 70's. In fact, you could have one in your drawer from 1970, squeeze the trigger and it would still go bang! 

Look at it this way, the security system is "high tech..."


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

If you have anyone in the house other than yourself, do not take the advice of those advocating 00 buck! Collateral damage in the next room is very real and very possible. Last thing you want is to shoot your own child etc. 00 buck, while a great person stopper, can penetrate far to much in most soft wall structures......2 sheets of drywall and some insulation is not an effective backstop. #4 buck in a 2.75" shell is as much load as I would go and even that is more than enough. At defensive ranges inside your house (20ft and closer) a shotgun is going to produce a softball size group that will include the shot wad and all.....it's not like your sending a 3ft wide pattern downrange. In this instance, no need for 00 buck. 

I do agree that a short shotgun is likely a better choice especially if your handgun expereince is limited. A defensive shotgun will be easier to hit with, but it will certainly still warrant practice at the range. A nice 18" barreled 870 in 12 or 20 will get the deal done. Plenty of them used available as well for decent prices.


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## glockman55 (Mar 9, 2006)

A home security system IMO is useless if your home and someone breaks into your home. What are you gonna do, hide in your bedroom and wait for help? Get a shot gun and protect your self.


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## SuperSnapper (Nov 6, 2007)

I'de go with a 12 ga.
Or better yet, buy a dog.


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## mgarrett88 (Jan 17, 2007)

another thing to keep in mind is that if your semi auto were to jam it takes a second hand to try and unjam it or rack another round in. a revolver all you have to do is just keep pullin that trigger.

but in all reality my 12ga 870 is the go to gun for home protection.


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## Topshelf (May 24, 2005)

I have always had a dog(s) and have quick access to a Kimber 45. I also have a little 410 with 00 buck stashed away in another part of the house just in case. But IMO any crook with even half a brain doesnt break into a house with average sized dogs to contend with. They move on to easier targets. I know that my two mutts would rather lick your face than bite you, BUT they sound like 150 lb Rotts when they hear even the slightest noise outside 

I think for most people that think they are vunerable, you can do a few things to lesson your chances of being broke into. For small dollars you can take some preventive steps like just locking windows and doors and using common sense and not throwing away big screen tv boxes in the trash for all to see. 
Even if you dont have a dog, post a beware of dog sign on the gate or door where its very visable. 
Look on Ebay and buy some alarm system signs and a dummy camera or two and place them where they can be seen.

Then if all else fails put that 12 ga pump in your bedroom and use loads that wont go through three walls and cause possible collateral damage if used.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

for those of us that live in reality, where 12 gauge shotguns are hard to hide and keep away from others, i like recurve's idea of a k-frame and a cell phone. God forbid we collect our loved ones in a bathroom and wait for the police rather than clear the house.

home intruders have 3 primary enemies - light, sound and time. if lights and alarms come on, most intruders flee immediately.

long guns are easily taken away from people. having ANY gun in the house for self defense, without investigating its pros/cons, is dangerous.


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## Win71 (Feb 10, 2003)

A 12 gauge shotgun is one idea, but you have to remember at the distances in question here a load of buckshot or birdshot will pattern less than several inches, which pretty much makes it a single projectile weapon. Buckshot will penetrate a partition wall in a house causing possible harm to other occupants. Don't rely on the racking of the action of a pump gun as a deterent when your family or your life is at stake. The only thing you can depend on are your own deliberate actions not some Hollywood type BS. I prefer a double acton revolver like a Smith & Wesson, Colt, Ruger or Taurus, in .38 S&W special caliber loaded with a hollow point bullet or even the old full wadcutter load to avoid over penetration but still will stop an assailant at these ranges. The reason for a revolver is dependiblity, no magazine spring fatigue after remaining loaded for months, no malfunction if you encounter a bad round of ammo and ease of operation in low light or any conditions. Practice with whatever weapon you choose is very important if you want to become proficient, which you do so you hit your target and not miss and hit someone in another room or pass through a window to another house. You will have do deal with taking another human life and likely legal actions. Have cell phone at your side to call 911, because an intruder will likely cut your land line. Any dog in the house that will bark to awaken you will help get the cobwebs out so you can make the right moves, a bigger dog buys more time by slowing down your intruder. What you are asking here is a big question a lot more complex than asking someone else what is right for them, it has to be right for you, because if you ever have to defend yourself with any lethal weapon it will affect the rest of your life. There is a Smith & Wesson Airweight .38 Special with me most of the time. I hope and pay that I never have to use it, but if a loved one or myself is in jeopardy from an assailant, God please forgive me.


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## Chuckgrmi (Nov 6, 2007)

*WOW!*

Thank you very much for all the responses and insights.

I never thought about an 870 cut down. I do keep a cell phone by the bed and I also keep the car keys close with the remote door opener attached (the panic button on the remote will set off the car horn from the bedroom). 

I think I will buy the 870 and cut it down even if I purchase a handgun.

Thanks again

Chuck


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

I would just buy one with a 18" bead sight barrel....I wouldn't go buy a regular one and cut the barrel unless you find a nice used plain barrel model on the rack somewhere. And I agree, don't buy the pump shotgun _sound _as a deterent....just lets the home invader know what he's up against and where your location is. Any defensive gun, including shotgun needs to have a round in the chamber.....if you think you may have time to chamber a round, you might be sorry. Who in their right mind is going to rack a round in and out of the chamber of a pump gun just to potentially scare an intruder? Nobody that knows anything about home defense thats who! This means in if you have kids in the house, you have a large issue to deal with.

Lots of good advice in this thread. I sleep comfortably knowing my 1911 45acp with laser grips and and a full spare mag are next to me. I also have the cell phone (that is on!) and a tactical flashlight in the same location as well. I know the gun well so operating it blindfolded and quickly is second nature....whatever you buy and use that must be the case....safeties or no safeties. 

Alarms, motion detecting outside lights, and smart landscaping all work together to keep your home from becoming an easy target. And having a plan the whole family understands if an intruder does make it inside is another key....things will happen rather fast....a clear head will be key in how the situation turns out.

If a revolver is a possibility, consider the Taurus Tracker series in .357 Mag with 4" barrel. This gun is rather light but not so light to be difficult to shoot, holds 7 rounds, and has a ported barrel to reduce muzzle jump. It's an excellent defensive revolver that won't brake the bank. I have one in .44 mag that holds 5 rounds.....it does bedside duty/deer camp duty at times as well, but the .357 would be a better choice imo.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

if i were putting a shotgun in the bedroom, it would probably be housed in something like this:

http://www.vlineind.com/html/closet_vault.html

my 40 S&W Sig sits loaded in one of these:

http://www.vlineind.com/html/top_draw.html

and while a thief _could_ walk away with something like this, no one that i've voluntarily allowed in the house will get at my guns, including kids.

the simplex lock is very easy to set and use. no batteries, no biometrics. takes me about 2-3 seconds to have a gun in my hand, in the dark.

not having a gun locked up is only asking for trouble, even if there aren't kids in the house on a regular basis.

of course, during daylight hours, when i'm away from the bedroom, i'm carrying, so i don't feel the need to stash guns around the house.

if you use a hand gun, and i would recommend it - something in a 38/357 revolver, spend the extra money for self defense ammo. i don't get wrapped up in penetration testing as others do, but many of the self defense rounds are loaded with non-cannister powders that are designed to reduce muzzle flash, something i think is very helpful if defending one's self in a dark house.


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## rzdrmh (Dec 30, 2003)

Swamp Monster said:


> safeties or no safeties.


very important point.. that's why i like revolvers. that's why i like my DA/SA Sig. no safeties. pick it up and pull the trigger. if you're like swamp and employ a 1911, a perfectly suitable option, make sure your use of the safety is "automatic".


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

One other consideration. Even if the gun has a safety, it is not necessary to have the safety engaged. The user is the number one safety factor and mechanical safeties should never be relied upon anyway. The safety is engaged on my 1911 because I practice using it at the range and feel comfortable using it. I would be just as comfortable/confident using a Glock or XD or any other DAO auto without a safety as well though. 

Like RZ mentioned, there are a number of products that lock your firearms yet allow quick access. I don't use any, but I live alone and rarely if ever have kids or other non gun owners in my house so thats my personal comfort level but If my situation were different, I would be looking at some locking device.


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## 2PawsRiver (Aug 4, 2002)

First condsider territory.....do you have neighbors, other people in the home, where penetration is an issue.

Second, what is your definition of home defense..........Barricade, call police and defend an established position, or do you have other family in the home that requires you to seek and engage.

A#1 Best Choice.......self activated deterent and problem solver, low light conditions are not an issue, and in the hands of an intruder can't be used against you.










#2 combine lights and an alarm with #1.

#3..........a Bad Option for 90 percent of people is a Firearm, but if you choose to get one there are two times when a Shotgun is a good home defense weapon.

1. When defense equals holding a position.
2. When you don't have a good home defense weapon.

If you're going to get a Firearm for home defense........for 90 percent of people, a high quality .38 revolver loaded with glazer safety slugs.

I say go with options 1 and 2, and if you feel you have to go with 3, chances are you will never need it


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## NoWake (Feb 7, 2006)

Good points about safeties. While they are important and have their place, to be honest most people don't train enough to make knocking the safety off an automatic thing. If it ever comes time to use it, fine motor skills are going to be gone.


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## ronintank (Dec 4, 2007)

I keep a S&W revolver in 38spl in my dresser drawer right next to my bed.
cant go wrong with point and pull the trigger repeat as required.
With a Semi auto you have the safety and the chance of accidentally popping the mag release in the dark or a jam that could cause you problems.
12 ga shot gun is a little too much gun for the wife and kind of big to be swinging around in the dark.
Yep I like a revolver my self.


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

If your worried about size of the shotgun being to much for the wife. Then get a child size 12 gauge. Shorter Stock smaller frame and works just as good as the adult version especially if you want it for home defense. A child size 12 gauge 870 with 18 or 20 inch barrell is the way to go. You can still outfit it with the barrell flashlight with action mounted switch. You can also get the extended magizine tube to hold extra ammo.


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## Migunner (Mar 28, 2008)

I thought just racking a shotgun will scare anyone away?


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## Rupestris (Aug 25, 2000)

Migunner said:


> I thought just racking a shotgun will scare anyone away?


You or I? maybe. A crackhead or meth head bent on entering your house and possibly getting between you and your children? I'd rather not bet on it. 

Go with the 870 and order the 18" barrel from Remington. I got mine for under $100 delivered. Practice with it! When it feels like its almost part of you, practice some more.

2Paws,

I had a Rot home security system for years. Best $30/month one can spend on security. I love my current pooch but I wish she was half the guard dog my Rottweiler was.

Chris


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## SuperTrooper (Nov 22, 2005)

Buy an 870 and put a pressure switch and flashlight on it. You will be good to go...:evil:


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## Rupestris (Aug 25, 2000)

SuperTrooper said:


> Buy an 870 and put a pressure switch and flashlight on it. You will be good to go...:evil:


Darn glad to see all the love for the 870 . Ain't a better shotgun built for the money. I even considered an "870" tattoo at one time.


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## 1wildchild (Apr 14, 2003)

SuperTrooper said:


> Buy an 870 and put a pressure switch and flashlight on it. You will be good to go...:evil:


What's a pressure switch?


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

1wildchild said:


> What's a pressure switch?


It is a flashlight that mounts to the barrel. Then you have a switch that is activated by your grip on the action of the shotgun. heance calling it a pressure switch.


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## ScottSki (Sep 6, 2004)

JUST MY OPINION (and what I've read )
Shotguns with bird shot are great for home defense, but theyre hard to move around corners, the bad guy could surprise you and grab the barrel, ect.
A .357 is going about 1,400 fps and might go through a the bad guy, a few walls and next door neighbors car all in one shot. (lol)

I like a .45, or a .45 long colt, (slow heavy rounds)
I like a 9mm. with hollow points.

Six shooters are great because the lady of the house won't have any trouble using one, just point and pull the trigger.

I sleep with an A-K .47 under my pillow but I'm told "I need help".

Whatever you buy, learn to use it well, and often!


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## bigcountrysg (Oct 9, 2006)

ScottSki said:


> JUST MY OPINION (and what I've read )
> Shotguns with bird shot are great for home defense, but theyre hard to move around corners, the bad guy could surprise you and grab the barrel, ect.
> A .357 is going about 1,400 fps and might go through a the bad guy, a few walls and next door neighbors car all in one shot. (lol)
> 
> ...


 
If they grab the barrel, then you pull the trigger. They will wish they never grabbed that barrel.


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## RecurveRx (Jun 21, 2004)

Migunner said:


> I thought just racking a shotgun will scare anyone away?


 
I thought it just identified your position???

Michigan's economy slipping further and further into the toilet will make threads like this more and more important. Crime will increase.

There have been some good tips here and some "John Wayne" tips.


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## chamookman (Sep 1, 2003)

If the BG grabs Your barrel, You took the corner wrong :yikes:. C-man


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

Mossberg Mariners are excellent self defence weapons. They can be had in a short stock or pistol grip configuration. I have one at work and one at home. Yes, the sound of a 12ga racking will stop a peckerhead right in his tracks.
I have #4 in the one at home to keep wall penetration down. OO buck in the one at work.

http://images.google.com/images?q=m...US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi


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## steelsetter (Dec 14, 2003)

unique current circumstances and then staying on top of changes.

My experience after moving into the country 7 years ago and the transition of home defense "modes".

*Mode 1*
Bought house/moved in.
Activated alarm system and BOLDLY placed warning signs at road and at main entrances/windows of systems existence.
Tried HARD to break into house and discovered multiple weakness's after working with security company.
Fixed ALL structural deficiencies. i.e light armoring of exterior doors/windows, robust locks, etc. that my younger kids could remove in advent of a fire.
Fixed all vision obstructions.
Added exterior lighting in ALL blind spots.
Bought Lab that once grown barks like Cujo if a squirrel farts in yard.
Trained twice a year with kids and wife on "panic drills". They thought it was neat and actually learned from the experiences.
Had younger children then and used a easy to open bedstand safe with my .45 Para that was (at the time) shot several times a month (benefit of moving to country).
Felt pretty secure. Spent around $2,800.00 over the course of a couple years or so with legacy monthly alarm fees not included.

*Mode 2*
Job change with more travel and children turning into young adults moving off to college/out on their own, etc.
Change of bedrooms/anticipated field of fire if things go south.
Added panic button in new bedroom wired into alarm system for fair wife and me if home for a direct link to alarm company.
Upgraded exterior lighting with motion control sensors to allow anyone to gauge where someone was or had moved around the outside of house at night.
Increased level of hard armoring of doors with removable "night bars" that would make entering a VERY NOISY event to breach them. Although slightly more difficult to remove in a fire, they are still safe for us IMHO.
Bought a German Shepherd who looks and sounds really mean....
Placed sign at road warning of biting dogs next to alarm placard.
Feel even more secure now and spent an additional $800.00 bucks or so without increased alarm legacy fees and dog food included....
Fair wife although proficient with shotgun from hunting/shooting with me never really "took" to nightime handgun shooting so after trying SEVERAL options bought this for her/my use at night.







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Train with her on what to do and how to do it if I am at home or away on business. Laser is sighted in at 21 feet which is right where our "last line in the sand" shoot zone is. Rifle is equipped with a flash/blind light and rifle also has tritium night sights so that you can shoot in pitch darkness if the situation warrants.
Use pre-existing home features and added layering for a relatively handgun caliber bulletproof safe/fire zone.
Practice with load/unloads, handling/deployment, using the laser/light combo and live fires in the backyard during the day AND NIGHT. Use 30 round mags with 20 .45 grain hollow points that are not over penetrators. One in gun and one on night stand. Have very few worries even if they did go through a wall due to location/fire zone, but setting your field of fire if possible is the best way to minimize this worry IMHO.
Send e-mail reminders to myself at pre-determined intervals (love Lotus Notes calender prompts for this) to change over mags, train, shoot live fire excercises.
Wife enjoys spending the time with me and her confidence level is high she can hold her own. THAT attitude due to training and preperation is what I consider the best Home defense.

I feel that there is not a lot more I can do to STOP any dirtbag from trying. My goal was to focus on the best defense I could afford before counting on a quick fix offense....

The firearm is the absolute last tool of use in my defense plan, not the primary deterrent.

If the bad guy/girl thinks your a tough target they will move on to easier pickings.

Now daytime defense planning is a whole different ballgame.

And BTW a homeowner close to me shot an armed intruder with his AK-47 and it did just what it was supposed to do.

I am a firm believer in never taking a handgun to task in a gunfight scenario unless your out of rifle ammunition.... OR you have NO OTHER OPTIONS based on your unique circumstances.


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## SteeliePollock (Mar 14, 2004)

with al this talk about revolvers nobody has said any thing about a 45/410.( http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=199&category=Revolver ) i'm going to get one for the house.the 45 would have plenty of stoping power and for some one that can't shoot the most accurite you can use a 2.5 inch 410 shell. but that is just my thought.. plus it make a great gun for shooting snakes


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## Gil Martin (Jan 18, 2003)

It depends on what you prefer, can handle well and afford. My preference is a double action revolver for home defense over a shotgun. You can get a revolver into action more quickly with one hand and manuever in close quarters more easily than with a shotgun. If a round fails to go off in a revolver, just pull the trigger again and another one is available. No so with a semi-auto handgun. Just the idle thoughts of an idle fellow. All the best...
Gil


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

Gil Martin said:


> If a round fails to go off in a revolver, just pull the trigger again and another one is available. No so with a semi-auto handgun. Gil


No doubt about it  but if the bad guy should grab ahold of the revolver's cylinder the handgun will not firel. If the bad guy grabs the slide of a semi-auto and the trigger is pulled the gun will fire but probably won't cycle. All types of guns especially when used defensively have their own respective advantages and their own respective shortcomings.

Hoppe's no.10
a.k.a Ruger1


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

SteeliePollock said:


> with al this talk about revolvers nobody has said any thing about a 45/410.( http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=199&category=Revolver ) i'm going to get one for the house.the 45 would have plenty of stoping power and for some one that can't shoot the most accurite you can use a 2.5 inch 410 shell. but that is just my thought.. plus it make a great gun for shooting snakes


I'd read this before you plunk your $$$$ down.



Here is a review of the Taurus Judge, which shoots 410. End result, not good for SD/HD.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

Hoppe's no.10
a.k.a Ruger1


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## glockman55 (Mar 9, 2006)

Hoppe's no.10 said:


> I'd read this before you plunk your $$$$ down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another thing to consider with this 45/410 pistol, the legality of a short barreled shot gun. Check your barrel length laws in your area before you buy one. I was told by my instructor that it was illegal in Mich. to use it with the .410.


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## Mickey Finn (Jan 21, 2005)

sneakboxer said:


> IMO the pistol is only used to get to a long gun. If i only had one firearm to defend my family at hallway range i'd chose a 12ga 870 with #4buck or 00buck.


This is my choice, 21" barrel. Keep the chamber empty and rack when needed. The sound alone should run off most home invaders. If not the buckshot will do a good job for you. Stay safe.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

I have not read every post so sorry if some one has posted this already 

I would gun Shot gun PUMP 

dont have to keep around chambered and every person on the planet dont matter what language they speak know what the sound of racking a pump shot gun means

easy to use and dont really even need to aim

scott


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

glockman55 said:


> Another thing to consider with this 45/410 pistol, the legality of a short barreled shot gun. Check your barrel length laws in your area before you buy one. I was told by my instructor that it was illegal in Mich. to use it with the .410.


They are legal , but must be registered as a PISTOL. This is because they do no not fit the definition of a shotgun under MI law. Since it is classified/registered as a pistol ,short barrel shotgun rules do not apply...


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## SteeliePollock (Mar 14, 2004)

ok i read that reprot . but did you look at the distance? it was at 10 yards. how often in personal protection are you going to be 10 yards away. that is 30 feet .here read this one http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-Judge.htm


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## huntfisheat (Jul 30, 2007)

Your best bet is a yappy Chihuahua and a 12 guage loaded with #4's.


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## Hoppe's no.10 (Sep 16, 2007)

SteeliePollock said:


> ok i read that reprot . but did you look at the distance? it was at 10 yards. how often in personal protection are you going to be 10 yards away. that is 30 feet .here read this one http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-Judge.htm


 
Guess I'd rather be armed with an effective 30' weapon rather than saying to the intruder: Please come closer so I can shoot you with my .410. "The Judge" is a nice marketing slogan undoubtedly thought up by some Madison Ave. ad exec. Undoubtedly a potent weapon when loaded with the .45 Colt but he .410 .

Read your suggested link and found this statement: "Anything farther than about twelve feet, and the cylinder needs to be stoked with the .45 Colt loads." I personally don't want to wait until an intruder is 12 feet from me to defend myself. So this begs two questions: Does "the Judge" come with a tape measure? If not then why not just go out and buy a truly useful defensive handgun _sans _ catchy names, situational effectiveness etc. 

Hoppe's no.10
a.k.a Ruger1


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## SteeliePollock (Mar 14, 2004)

gee i guess that is why you can use eithe a 410 or 45. you have a choice. but i'm looking at it like this i have kids and a 45 is going thru my house a 410 wont so like i said before its just my 2 cents. i do have usefull like a 357 , 40 , 44mag but like i said i don't want to shoot thru walls./


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

timbergsp said:


> dont have to keep around chambered and every person on the planet dont matter what language they speak know what the sound of racking a pump shot gun means
> 
> easy to use and dont really even need to aim


The don't really have to aim part is really bad advice. At defensive ranges inside your home, a shotgun load of say #4 buck is going to be about the size of a softball, even with a cylinde bore open choke. You certainly still have to aim and train with a shotgun to be effective. Go pattern your shotgun with your self defense load at 7 yards (21 feet) and see for yourself how big the pattern is. 21ft is considered the threat zone....if your shooting at someone from a farther distance than that, you'd better have a good explanation ready for the LEO, or the threat had better be eminent...meaning they were firing on you from a farther distance. Inside a house, that is unlikely, most contact will be at much closer ranges.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

As for the .45/.410, if you can't hit center mass with that gun loaded with .45 colt ammo, you aren't going to hit center mass with that gun loaded with .410 shotshell ammo either. A gimmick idea is not going to overcome or replace lack of training and skill. jmo.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

Swamp Monster said:


> The don't really have to aim part is really bad advice. At defensive ranges inside your home, a shotgun load of say #4 buck is going to be about the size of a softball, even with a cylinde bore open choke. You certainly still have to aim and train with a shotgun to be effective. Go pattern your shotgun with your self defense load at 7 yards (21 feet) and see for yourself how big the pattern is. 21ft is considered the threat zone....if your shooting at someone from a farther distance than that, you'd better have a good explanation ready for the LEO, or the threat had better be eminent...meaning they were firing on you from a farther distance. Inside a house, that is unlikely, most contact will be at much closer ranges.


ya I know

I really didnt mean it like point some place in the dark and pull the trigger

if I had some one that has never shot a gun and needed to toss them in to a self defence mode a 2 am while they could barly hit the toilet with there PEE 

I would want them on the end of a shot gun not a hand gun

but I pray that any one and every one would go head and practice 

scott


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## Win71 (Feb 10, 2003)

Sorry to be quoting a part of my previous post but there is some posting going on with "John Wayne" ideas and passing some very dangerous advice along on a very sensative subject. Accidents or carelessness with a firearm can end in a family tradgedy that would be a lot harder to deal with than a carefully aimed shot at an intruder. Practice with whatever weapon you choose is very important if you want to become proficient, which you do so you hit your target and not hit someone in another room or pass through a window to another house. You will have do deal with taking another human life and likely legal actions. Lets be serious about this and not make ownership of firearms any more difficult than it already is. The anti-gunners hate cool collective deliberate people defending themselves and loved ones, but they love to push their point home when something goes unfortunately wrong. Choose whatever weapon that you can become proficient with, it is a huge responsibilty, do it right for your and everyone elses sake.


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