# Where is Michigan's Wolf Hunting Bill?



## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/proposals/ab502

Wisconsin is well on their way of establishing a wolf season. Has Michigan even began the process of implementing a season?


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## HUBBHUNTER (Aug 8, 2007)

You want to know where the Wolf Hunting Bill for Michigan is located???

It's buried deep in the pockets of organizations such as HSUS and PETA.


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

Luv2hunteup said:


> http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/proposals/ab502
> 
> Wisconsin is well on their way of establishing a wolf season. Has Michigan even began the process of implementing a season?


 
According to you there are no wolves in your area.....you play both sides of the fence......too often.........


Dave


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Dave;

Show me a post where I have said we have no wolves in my area and your statements on this site may have some credibility. Wolves have a place in the UP but it is not in AG areas and certainly not in the numbers there are now.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

I saw in a DNR press release where they stated that they have no plans for a wolf season. If the DNR is not for a season, then that makes it extreemly difficult to get one. It will take a lot of public preasure to get a season here in Michigan. From the postings I've seen, a lot of hunters even on this site would be against it. It's hard to get a season on a animal in MI when even hunters are anti-hunters.


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## omega58 (Sep 3, 2003)

Trophy Specialist said:


> I saw in a DNR press release where they stated that they have no plans for a wolf season. If the DNR is not for a season, then that makes it extreemly difficult to get one. It will take a lot of public preasure to get a season here in Michigan. From the postings I've seen, a lot of hunters even on this site would be against it. It's hard to get a season on a animal in MI when even hunters are anti-hunters.


Like proposal 3.

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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Luv2hunteup your link was not working.

Here's a link to an article on the subject. 

http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.c.../202020614/Bill-would-set-wolf-hunting-season


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Sounds like an auction for trapping tags....


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

Here's another link where the Wisconsin DNR's "wolf scientists" are against the bill. It's no wonder that they would be against it and I bet our "wolf scientists" would do the same thing no matter how conservative a proposed hunting season would be. I have found that most wolf researchers are not pro-hunters and are in fact anti-hunters that are funded by hunting license dollars no less. There is no good reason not to have a wolf season in Michigan and if the DNR does not lead the way in this process, then the decision makers there need to be replaced with people that will actually manage our natural resourced based on sound science. A wolf season at this time in Michigan would be sound scientific wildlife management. 

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_40235420-4d2a-11e1-8618-0019bb2963f4.html


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Trophy Specialist said:


> Here's another link where the Wisconsin DNR's "wolf scientists" are against the bill. It's no wonder that they would be against it and I bet our "wolf scientists" would do the same thing no matter how conservative a proposed hunting season would be. I have found that most wolf researchers are not pro-hunters and are in fact anti-hunters that are funded by hunting license dollars no less. There is no good reason not to have a wolf season in Michigan and if the DNR does not lead the way in this process, then the decision makers there need to be replaced with people that will actually manage our natural resourced based on sound science. A wolf season at this time in Michigan would be sound scientific wildlife management.
> 
> http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_40235420-4d2a-11e1-8618-0019bb2963f4.html


The LE division would never approve of it. Its bad enough they wont even approve depredation permits from wolf damage. They don't trust us, we are a bunch of stupid hill rods with guns. They laugh at us all the time treating us like we are beneath them.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

WAUB-MUKWA said:


> The LE division would never approve of it. Its bad enough they wont even approve depredation permits from wolf damage. They don't trust us, we are a bunch of stupid hill rods with guns. They laugh at us all the time treating us like we are beneath them.


Sounds like solid science to me!....:lol: just kiddin WAUB!... if they're off the list you should be able to protect your land and it's occupants, but you'd better to be able to prove your case.


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## da Appleknocker (Jan 26, 2009)

First let me say that I think the wolf (Maahiingun) is a beautiful, majestic, mystical and valuable animal and resource to the State of Michigan. I am humbled and in awe when in their presence. But, allowed to overpopulate they can become a menace to other wildlife resources and the economy related to hunting them. I believe this has reached that point in the Upper Peninsula. 

I have just finished reading (again) the Nov. 2006 Report of the Michigan Wolf Management Roundtable, and the results of this effort the July 10, 2008, Michigan Wolf Management Plan. In this plan I find the DNRs statistics and recommendations contradictory and confusing. In this report it states that an adult wolf will consume between 37 and 50 deer per year, a fact also listed in the 2011 Hunting Guide on page 36. So, the questions arise, how many wolves are there in the UP? and what is the growth rate of this resource? They claim a 13% growth rate, a figure I believe to be too low, in this plan. On page 20 a graph shows 509 wolves in 2007. At a 13% growth rate that means a population of 940 this spring BEFORE the pups are born. On page 22 two different prior management plans report that 200 wolves are believed to be a viable wolf population in Michigan. So, if you believe them, and I do, we have five times the number of wolves considered a viable population. 

What cost does this have on our ungulate populations? Using the statistics quoted above by the experts we will lose up to 50,000 deer per year. Combined with the winter/spring weather relates deaths on a moderate year of 70,000, (2011 hunting guide page 36) the total Mother Nature caused deaths total 120,000 a year. 

We have had three mild winters in the UP but the deer populations have NOT rebounded accordingly. Also, our Moose populations have been struggling recently. Could wolves be the reason? I believe so. Why? Because wolves do not just reduce the ungulate populations by mere predation. Yes they kill adult deer and fawns, but how many deer are lost because of stress and stress related weight loss causing still births and underweight fawns? I believe stress caused by the presence of wolves account for a high mortality rate that is NOT included in the numbers above.

The wolf population in Michigan has been allowed to grow too big by manipulation and protection as a result of social and management politics. Our DNR has no desire to restrict this growth. In a recent conversation with Russ Mason he blamed the Tribes the Legislature the Feds and the citizens for the Departments lack of action on this critical issue. I blame the Department for THEIR lack of action in this situation. I believe the DNR needs to grow some balls and stand up and say enough is enough. The wolf population needs to be managed like any other wildlife resource under their control in this State. You say its not under their control, then they should get it under their control. We set population goals for bear, deer, elk and Moose, why not wolves? We currently exceed viable population goals for wolves by 500% to the extent it is causing damage to our other more economically and recreationally important wildlife resources. The problem is that there is no political capitol to be gained by the people in control of our wildlife management. The departments own biologist are afraid of retaliation if they oppose their bosses and therefore have become yes men to those who have control of their careers. Instead they tell them what they want to hear instead of what they need to know. The current leaders of the MDNR establish agendas that they feel are politically and socially acceptable, often times influenced or even dictated by special interest groups and organizations, then gather the science that supports their agendas. By doing this they have lost the support and respect of the majority of Michigans hunters. It is time to change this mentality, but HOW?


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

Trophy Specialist

The link is working; I think it was being updated with an amendment.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

da Appleknocker said:


> First let me say that I think the wolf (Maahiingun) is a beautiful, majestic, mystical and valuable animal and resource to the State of Michigan. I am humbled and in awe when in their presence. But, allowed to overpopulate they can become a menace to other wildlife resources and the economy related to hunting them. I believe this has reached that point in the Upper Peninsula.
> 
> I have just finished reading (again) the Nov. 2006 Report of the Michigan Wolf Management Roundtable, and the results of this effort the July 10, 2008, Michigan Wolf Management Plan. In this plan I find the DNRs statistics and recommendations contradictory and confusing. In this report it states that an adult wolf will consume between 37 and 50 deer per year, a fact also listed in the 2011 Hunting Guide on page 36. So, the questions arise, how many wolves are there in the UP? and what is the growth rate of this resource? They claim a 13% growth rate, a figure I believe to be too low, in this plan. On page 20 a graph shows 509 wolves in 2007. At a 13% growth rate that means a population of 940 this spring BEFORE the pups are born. On page 22 two different prior management plans report that 200 wolves are believed to be a viable wolf population in Michigan. So, if you believe them, and I do, we have five times the number of wolves considered a viable population.
> 
> ...


Except for the first two sentences, this was a good post.

Wolves have not been a valuable animal and resource to this state at all. Rather they have been a drain on resources. If we were to get a hunting season on them, then possibly they may have some value, but until them they are strictly a liability that we do not need. Also, I think that wolves aren't any more beautiful, majestic, mystical than any other animals in Michigan. I guess that when you've heard a thousand wolf howls and have seen them over one hundred times, the novelty wears off.


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## da Appleknocker (Jan 26, 2009)

T S, I guess its all in your prospective and circumstances. Back in 1961 while working on a dairy farm at a young age in the Thumb area, the farmer came in at lunchtime and said there was a deer in one of the fields. It was so unusual we all packed into the pick-up truck and drove down the lane to see this unusual event. We were in awe. Today we would probably grab the shotgun before we left the house.

I spend a lot of time in NW Marquette County, the Huron Mt. area and have yet to see one in the wild there. I have seen them in the Seney area though. I see lots of tracks but they are very elusive to man. But thanks for your prospective. da Apple


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## DIYsportsman (Dec 21, 2010)

Apple u a member of the huron mt club?


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## da Appleknocker (Jan 26, 2009)

DIY, not even close, but Apple U, I like that.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

da Appleknocker said:


> T S, I guess its all in your prospective and circumstances. Back in 1961 while working on a dairy farm at a young age in the Thumb area, the farmer came in at lunchtime and said there was a deer in one of the fields. It was so unusual we all packed into the pick-up truck and drove down the lane to see this unusual event. We were in awe. Today we would probably grab the shotgun before we left the house.
> 
> I spend a lot of time in NW Marquette County, the Huron Mt. area and have yet to see one in the wild there. I have seen them in the Seney area though. I see lots of tracks but they are very elusive to man. But thanks for your prospective. da Apple


I hunt for deer mostly in Delta and Southern Marquette Counties and I haven't really seen many wolves while deer hunting, but I hear them a lot (half the days I bowhunt I hear them howling). Most of my wolf sighting come when I'm bird hunting, which I do a lot. I bird hunt in Delta, Menominee, Dickinson, and Schoolcraft counties. The counties that have the most deer will also have the most wolves and I spend a lot of time (60 days in the fall of 2012) in the woods in counties that have the most deer.


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## lmholmes11 (Nov 12, 2008)

having a Wolf mount in the house would just be bad *****. Too bad we'll never get to hunt them.


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## da Appleknocker (Jan 26, 2009)

Imholmes11, never say never.


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> In the UP we are one mabey two hard winters away from having to defend our livestock, pets, and ourselves from wolves. Deer yard up in the winter so it will be a buffet for the pack wolves that hit the deer yards. The individual wolves that do not have the benefit of pack hunting will forage for themselves. These wolves will kill whatever is available. If the DNR plays politics for much longer the wolf population will continue to grow and there will be some problems. We just need to get that Sheriff from Ohio up here in the UP.


 
This is so very true!!! If we do not start a wolf harvest of some sort, even problem wolves. There will not be a huntable deer herd in most parts of the UP in Three years........There are already parts now that are cleaned out and that will only get bigger.
[/COLOR] 
 
Cheers Dave


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

METTLEFISH said:


> In the predator/prey scenario, the predator primarily feeds upon the old/sick/injured. Thus maintaining healthy viable specimens within the the prey portion of the scenario... I would imagine any Wolves that would stoop as low as to come into contact w/ people are themselves older/sick/week individuals.


 


WHY Do you continue to spew incorrect information??? There have been many studies to see how effective the wolf VS deer is. ALL I repeat ALL of the studies indicate that an adult wolf has no issues as to what condition the deer is in. The ONLY factor upon deer survival is how many wolves are in pursuit. From what I have read a lone wolf starts out with a factor over 50% once a chase ensues. If a pack of 4 engage a deer its survival is almost 0%.

There was a study done in Finland [they have the Eastern Grey Wolf] the prey was a mixed environment moose and whitetails. After every engagement they went out to record the results. The [pack of 4] went 65% kill rate for every moose they engaged and 100% 9 for 9 of every whitetail they engaged........PLEASE stop and get educated!!!!
[/COLOR] 
 
Cheers Dave


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

Midalake said:


> WHY Do you continue to spew incorrect information??? There have been many studies to see how effective the wolf VS deer is. ALL I repeat ALL of the studies indicate that an adult wolf has no issues as to what condition the deer is in. The ONLY factor upon deer survival is how many wolves are in pursuit. From what I have read a lone wolf starts out with a factor over 50% once a chase ensues. If a pack of 4 engage a deer its survival is almost 0%.
> 
> There was a study done in Finland [they have the Eastern Grey Wolf] the prey was a mixed environment moose and whitetails. After every engagement they went out to record the results. The [pack of 4] went 65% kill rate for every moose they engaged and 100% 9 for 9 of every whitetail they engaged........PLEASE stop and get educated!!!!
> [/COLOR]
> ...




I never believed the old, sick, weak theory. A wolf will kill anything it sets its sights on. Whether its 10 pounds or 1,000 pounds, young, old, weak, strong, sick, fast, slow, pok-a-dotted, striped or albino, it doesn't matter.  I'll be in the yards off the big lake next week. It'll look like buffet night at the chinese restaurant. :yikes:


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## ausable riverboat (May 10, 2010)

Talked to a DND Trapper a couple of years ago in gas station in Rapid River.He had a truck load of live traps and he said that he was trapping wolves. He also said that there was about three thousand wolves in the UP. Don't have any reason not to belive him.


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## WAUB-MUKWA (Dec 13, 2003)

ausable riverboat said:


> Talked to a DND Trapper a couple of years ago in gas station in Rapid River.He had a truck load of live traps and he said that he was trapping wolves. He also said that there was about three thousand wolves in the UP. Don't have any reason not to belive him.


Wonder if it was Mike? I didn't know they live trapped just foot holds or the cheaper, a bullet. I would say we have well over 1,000 going on 1,500.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Midalake said:


> WHY Do you continue to spew incorrect information??? There have been many studies to see how effective the wolf VS deer is. ALL I repeat ALL of the studies indicate that an adult wolf has no issues as to what condition the deer is in. The ONLY factor upon deer survival is how many wolves are in pursuit. From what I have read a lone wolf starts out with a factor over 50% once a chase ensues. If a pack of 4 engage a deer its survival is almost 0%.
> 
> There was a study done in Finland [they have the Eastern Grey Wolf] the prey was a mixed environment moose and whitetails. After every engagement they went out to record the results. The [pack of 4] went 65% kill rate for every moose they engaged and 100% 9 for 9 of every whitetail they engaged........PLEASE stop and get educated!!!!
> 
> ...


Where is the data suggesting every animal was of equall age, size, health?.... you really should watch more Mutual of Omaha!.....


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

The wolves only kill young, weak, old, sick, injured animals was the phrase that DNR biologists used to use in the 1980's and 1990's until the general public got a little more educated. I have gone into deer yards and found otherwise very healthy deer killed and very little eaten on them. The "thrill kill" is a term that the DNR does not use when they estimate how many deer a wolf must kill in order to survive. More or less if you own a farm and shoot 10 pigs but only eat one the DNR is only going to count the pig that is actually eaten. As for the wolf population in the UP I would say it is safe to estimate 950 to 1500. That is why I say that we are one or two harsh winters from having some serious wolf problems in the UP. Even if they have a wolf season it is not like they will be an easy animal to hunt. Way too many people think that it will be like deer hunting. If you have the opportunity to see one wolf in the wild and have spent a considerable amount of time in the woods I can almost guarantee that a dozen wolves have seen you that you were unaware of.When the DNR does have a wolf season it will take up to 10 years to even have a significant impact on the population. Good Luck hunting.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

The DNR still says that wolves just kill the weak, which of course is BS. When I witnessed (photographed) a lone wolf catch and eat a deer, the DNR wolf expert first told me that the deer had to be a fawn and that the photo was of a coyote eating the deer alive. I told him that the doe was at least two years old, and that there was no doubt that it was a wolf. I even had the jaw bone from the deer that the wolf killed aged and had a photo of a ruler on the track of the wolf (over 4" wide). When I shared that with him he begrudgingly admitted that it might have been a wolf then. He then insisted though that the deer had to have been injured for the wolf to have caught it. That deer was healthy because I saw it run with no issues before the wolf caught it.

Wolves kill any deer they can catch. It's easier for them to catch young deer so that is the segment of the population that gets hit the hardest and no doubt why are fawning rate is so low in our area even after two back to back easy winters.


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## Robert Holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

Trophy Specialist said:


> The DNR still says that wolves just kill the weak, which of course is BS. When I witnessed (photographed) a lone wolf catch and eat a deer, the DNR wolf expert first told me that the deer had to be a fawn and that the photo was of a coyote eating the deer alive. I told him that the doe was at least two years old, and that there was no doubt that it was a wolf. I even had the jaw bone from the deer that the wolf killed aged and had a photo of a ruler on the track of the wolf (over 4" wide). When I shared that with him he begrudgingly admitted that it might have been a wolf then. He then insisted though that the deer had to have been injured for the wolf to have caught it. That deer was healthy because I saw it run with no issues before the wolf caught it.
> 
> Wolves kill any deer they can catch. It's easier for them to catch young deer so that is the segment of the population that gets hit the hardest and no doubt why are fawning rate is so low in our area even after two back to back easy winters.


 This has happened twice on the same waterway in the UP (unmentionable). I caught Atlantic Salmon and I keep them when in season as they are very tastey. The USFWS Biologists there were 5 one time and 4 the second time took measurements and scale samples and swore that the fish that I caught was a steelhead. I had to explain the difference to them and they did have biology degrees from various universities. For a biologist to not know the difference between a coyote and a wolf does not surprise me. Too many books not enough real life experience can do that. I also have my degrees but I learned way before I went to college.


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## stevebrandle (Jan 23, 2000)

Robert Holmes said:


> If you have the opportunity to see one wolf in the wild and have spent a considerable amount of time in the woods I can almost guarantee that a dozen wolves have seen you that you were unaware of.When the DNR does have a wolf season it will take up to 10 years to even have a significant impact on the population. Good Luck hunting.


One could say that about all of the animals in our State. Some years ago I hunted a nice hill top on public land and watched three deer stay just out of site of a "still hunting" hunter. It was really funny to watch him in stealth mode. The deer just moved a little when he wasn't looking to put trees, etc. in between. 

I learned a lot about wolf control from Cree natives in Saskatchewan. The most effective way to eliminate them was with snares.


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

stevebrandle said:


> I learned a lot about wolf control from Cree natives in Saskatchewan. The most effective way to eliminate them was with snares.


The government of Canada is poisoning wolves in certain areas because there are so many of them that they are decimating caribou herds. There has been a big stink about it with lots of articles. Poisoning really scares the crap out of me. If wolf numbers are left unchecked in MI, people in the U.P. will fight back by poisoning wolves there big time. The few illegal shootings of wolves in the U.P. have been played up a lot by the DNR, but those shootings have had no impact on the overall wolf population. It would only take a handful of people knowledgeable in how to poison wolves in the U.P. to really do major damage though.


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## stevebrandle (Jan 23, 2000)

Trophy Specialist said:


> The government of Canada is poisoning wolves in certain areas because there are so many of them that they are decimating caribou herds. There has been a big stink about it with lots of articles. Poisoning really scares the crap out of me. If wolf numbers are left unchecked in MI, people in the U.P. will fight back by poisoning wolves there big time. The few illegal shootings of wolves in the U.P. have been played up a lot by the DNR, but those shootings have had no impact on the overall wolf population. It would only take a handful of people knowledgeable in how to poison wolves in the U.P. to really do major damage though.


That would cost too much. The three "S's" will take care of it if nothing is done soon.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

HAHAHAHA !... so much information available and all the Ol'BigBad haters can do is type B.S. . Give some information that's REAL... no wild animal operates on a Caloric debt M.O. ... they parrish if they do and that's just not how things work..... weather you like it or not!.... even if they did Deer numbers are at historic highs... even in the U.P. . My friends are killing some AWESOME 3-4-5-6 year olds.... right in the heart of Ol'BigBads hood!...


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

METTLEFISH said:


> HAHAHAHA !... so much information available and all the Ol'BigBad haters can do is type B.S. . Give some information that's REAL... no wild animal operates on a Caloric debt M.O. ... they parrish if they do and that's just not how things work..... weather you like it or not!.... even if they did Deer numbers are at historic highs... even in the U.P. . My friends are killing some AWESOME 3-4-5-6 year olds.... right in the heart of Ol'BigBads hood!...


 
"you are a legend in your own mind"

Dave


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Midalake said:


> "you are a legend in your own mind"
> 
> Dave


Thanks!...


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Robert Holmes said:


> In the UP we are one mabey two hard winters away from having to defend our livestock, pets, and ourselves from wolves. Deer yard up in the winter so it will be a buffet for the pack wolves that hit the deer yards. The individual wolves that do not have the benefit of pack hunting will forage for themselves. These wolves will kill whatever is available. If the DNR plays politics for much longer the wolf population will continue to grow and there will be some problems. We just need to get that Sheriff from Ohio up here in the UP.


Look out!.... the El Chupacabra are multiplyin in the U.P.!.....


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## Trophy Specialist (Nov 30, 2001)

METTLEFISH said:


> HAHAHAHA !... so much information available and all the Ol'BigBad haters can do is type B.S. . Give some information that's REAL... no wild animal operates on a Caloric debt M.O. ... they parrish if they do and that's just not how things work..... weather you like it or not!.... even if they did Deer numbers are at historic highs... even in the U.P. . My friends are killing some AWESOME 3-4-5-6 year olds.... right in the heart of Ol'BigBads hood!...


For your information deer numbers are not even near all time high now. In fact, deer numbers have been in a steady decline for the last 12 years and that was made worse by the severe winters of 2007/2008 and 2008/2009. Even after mild winters in 2010 and 2011, deer numbers this past fall were only up slightly and in many parts of the U.P. deer numbers did not go up at all or even dropped, despite what should have been a period of deer herd growth. 

If you have friends that claim to have consistently killed 3-4-5-6 year old bucks the past couple years, then I would have to see photos to believe it. Because of the bad winters of 2007-8, and 2008-9, bucks in those age classes were extremely rare in the U.P. last year.


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## Luv2hunteup (Mar 22, 2003)

I would love to see your friends pictures of those mature UP whitetails. Please post them even if it is not on this thread. Massive dark antlered deer are my favorite.


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## METTLEFISH (Jan 31, 2009)

Luv2hunteup said:


> I would love to see your friends pictures of those mature UP whitetails. Please post them even if it is not on this thread. Massive dark antlered deer are my favorite.


You could even ask him... one name is outdoor writer Bob Gwizdz.... look him up and ask him!....


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## Midalake (Dec 7, 2009)

METTLEFISH said:


> You could even ask him... one name is outdoor writer Bob Gwizdz.... look him up and ask him!....


 
No really!!! Do that follow-up for us and PLEASE post all those 4-5-6 y/o giant UP bucks. [from this last season please] 

Cheers Dave


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