# How to get tighter groups?



## LuckyRookie (Nov 11, 2009)

I recently picked up a CVA Kodiak Pro and have been having a significant amount of difficulty getting the thing sighted in. Before I continue I should probably add that up until the muzzy I had never considered hunting with a 100+yd weapon as I hunt in the SW part of Michigan and as such have not had a great deal of practice shooting anything other than a shotgun. That said, I took a buck at 90yd out opening day last year and a doe in the early season this fall at 60yd with a Remington 870, so I'm not inept with a gun. The muzzleloader seems to be a whole different animal however. I have had a difficult time getting consistent ten inch groups at a hundred yards up until now. I have been using a 110 grain load with Hornady sst sabots and there was a decent breeze all three times I have attempted to sight her in. As it stands I am not confident with the gun at any distance past 75yd which is ridiculous considering my sole intent was to achieve a 150yd kill potential. Any suggestions on how to tackle this problem will be greatly appreciated.


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## wadevb1 (Mar 25, 2008)

You picked an accurate sabot but there are some things missing. What type of powder and primer have you chosen? Some guns throw bullets differently as well and maybe the SST isn't for you. Maybe 100 or 90 grains will shrink your groups.

The main thing to build up for accuracy is keeping pressure uniform. Powder build up in the barrel will degrade accuracy. When I used 777 or Pyrodex I used a cotton patch or two wet with saliva to swab the bore clean. This was followed with a dry patch and then the load. Some people use a patch with Windex which also worked for me. This should be done between shots to maintain uniform pressure.

Zone 3 all I use is MZ. When you find the right recipe they can group as good if not better than any slug gun.


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## skipper34 (Oct 13, 2005)

wadevb1 said:


> You picked an accurate sabot but there are some things missing. What type of powder and primer have you chosen? Some guns throw bullets differently as well and maybe the SST isn't for you. Maybe 100 or 90 grains will shrink your groups.
> 
> The main thing to build up for accuracy is keeping pressure uniform. Powder build up in the barrel will degrade accuracy. When I used 777 or Pyrodex I used a cotton patch or two wet with saliva to swab the bore clean. This was followed with a dry patch and then the load. Some people use a patch with Windex which also worked for me.
> 
> Zone 3 all I use is MZ. When you find the right recipe they can group as good if not better than any slug gun.


Great advice, wade. I may add that different size of bullet may be what is needed. I went from 303 Core-Lokt to 250 Shockwave with my Rem 700ML and my groups tightened from 5 inches at 100 to about 1.5. I kept the same powder charge, 100 gr. Pyrodex, but the bullet weight made a big difference.


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## SPH (Jan 20, 2004)

Open sights or scope? Do you clean the barrell after each shot or are you just putting another bullet in? Are you using the easy glide red jacket or the standard black jacket?

The easy glide red jackets were all over the place with my T.C. Triumph and I tried alot of bullets and found the standard jack worked much better but its tougher to get down the barrell. For accuracy you may want to try the XTP's as most guns I have shot do very well with them but the expansion of the bullet is suspect and leaves a very small blood trail on the most of the deer that I shot but they all died.


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## LuckyRookie (Nov 11, 2009)

Sorry for the lack of information all. I have a variable 3X10 power scope on the Kodiak which I have been using wide open for purposes of sighting in. Also, I have been using 777 powder and primers and the new low drag variety of sabots (red). I have not been wet swabbing after each shot (only dry) perhaps this is the culprit? I also forgot to mention that the first shot out of the fresh barrel is usually quite good with the error from dead on most likely being mine and not the gun.


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## gunfun13 (Jun 13, 2003)

I used to not clean between shots and recently started...HUGE difference. I use the TC Wet patches.


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## Mitchell Ulrich (Sep 10, 2007)

Get a bench. 
Use sandbags. 
Clean your weapon before you shoot and after each shot.

Then report back to us with the results.

Big difference?


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## riverhntr1 (Jun 21, 2008)

I agree with all of the above advice....but check to make sure all of the screws are tight on your scope......


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## Paul Thompson (Jul 16, 2007)

Yep, you have to repeat the loading process identically each time, and swabbing the barrel out each time between shots. Fouling just keeps building up and up affecting each shot differently if you don't.


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## LuckyRookie (Nov 11, 2009)

Alright, I'm hearing the advice on really cleaning the barrel. I was not aware that the fouling was THIS extreme of an issue (I know...stupid rookie...) Anyway, just so I'm clear: You are just suggesting wet swabbing the barrel and then dry swabbing. No one is actually suggesting removing the breach plug and through cleaning between each load are they? 

btw I was shooting from bags


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

Paul Thompson said:


> Yep, you have to repeat the loading process identically each time, and swabbing the barrel out each time between shots. Fouling just keeps building up and up affecting each shot differently if you don't.


Yep, consistancy, consistancy, consistancy. Sounds simple enough right? If only it were so!! If you are using loose powder, measuring the exact same amount each and every time is going to be absolutely critical to your success. This is easy but not without practice. A good accurate powder measure is a must. A few grains plus or minus and accuracy is going to suffer. With loose powder, I have found that seating the bullet is also critical. You need to seat the bullet firmly with as close to the same level of pressure each shot. Make sure you are using the same brand of primer each time. Cleaning between shots, again consistantly each and every time. Eventually it turns into a repeatable routine, but for most of us, this takes some time. Do not hesitate to try different powder weights and different bullet/sabot combinations. Most guns have a sweet spot or two and each one is different. What works in your friends kodiak, may not work at all in yours etc. Range time, practice, and trial and error will get you there.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 11, 2002)

LuckyRookie said:


> Alright, I'm hearing the advice on really cleaning the barrel. I was not aware that the fouling was THIS extreme of an issue (I know...stupid rookie...) Anyway, just so I'm clear: You are just suggesting wet swabbing the barrel and then dry swabbing. No one is actually suggesting removing the breach plug and through cleaning between each load are they?
> 
> btw I was shooting from bags


Correct, usually one wet, one dry. I like TC # 13 for Pryodex...windex is cheaper and also works well however. Some just use there spit..hence the name spit patch....but my spit must be weak because it's not nearly as effective as the commercial grade stuff! 

A tip; Always remove the breech plug before leaving the range...ensures it won't get stuck. Also, use Gorilla Grease or orthe breech plug lube each and every time you install the breech plug. Off season, I never, ever store the breech plug in the gun. Lots of folks have seized breech plugs but if you follow this advice, your life will be easier! If I'm shooting an extended session at the range....say 30-50 rounds, I'll pull the plug and give it a quick "field" clean and relube just to be safe.


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## Paul Thompson (Jul 16, 2007)

Now we are not talking a total clean out, flush and scrub, just a wet swab in and out about three or four times with your favorite solvent, then dry it out with a dry cloth swabbing, and reload.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

LuckyRookie said:


> Alright, I'm hearing the advice on really cleaning the barrel. I was not aware that the fouling was THIS extreme of an issue (I know...stupid rookie...) Anyway, just so I'm clear: You are just suggesting wet swabbing the barrel and then dry swabbing. No one is actually suggesting removing the breach plug and through cleaning between each load are they?
> 
> btw I was shooting from bags


I remove the breech plug each round. Wet (TC 13) patch flip over, dry, flip over. 

I have also noticed since switching to T7 Win Primers that back 2 inches comes way cleaner with just the wet-dry patch procedure.


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

good advice there. I'll add that when I was shooting 777 the max load with a 250gr SST that I could get to print good out of my Triumph was with 100grs of powder. And that would get me about a 4 inch group at 100 with cleaning between each shot.

Try bumping down to 100 or even 90grs and see how that does. Also loading a ML is all about consistency in seating the sabot on the powder or pellets (which are you using, loose powder or pellets?). 

Now that I shoot BH209 I use the 250gr SST's and 110grs of BH209 with a federal 209mag primer and I'm getting just about 1 inch groups at 100, with out cleaning between shots. 

Alot of ML'ing is experimenting to find what works best for your gun and routine but what ever you do remain consistent.

J-


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## LuckyRookie (Nov 11, 2009)

I am using loose powder because all the old timers I talked to about muzzle loading were adamant about being able to work up the perfect load for my gun.


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## wadevb1 (Mar 25, 2008)

I now use BH209 but managed to shoot 1"-1.5" groups with two Pyrodex fifty grain pellets. Pellets can be inconsistant on my scale but my Encore didn't seem to notice. 

Sounds like your on the right track.


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## Paul Thompson (Jul 16, 2007)

LuckyRookie said:


> I am using loose powder because all the old timers I talked to about muzzle loading were adamant about being able to work up the perfect load for my gun.


I have half a box of pellets I will never burn up, I like the loose powder too, 90 grains has always worked well in the three guns I have. I started out shooting 120, and kept dropping down to where 90 grains seems to be the magic amount for me.


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## dmavdmav (Jan 17, 2005)

riverhntr1 said:


> I agree with all of the above advice....but check to make sure all of the screws are tight on your scope......


Loctite.


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## tallbear (May 18, 2005)

And make sure you're seating the bullet completely each time. Mark your rod when you're sure it's all the way down, then hit that mark every time.


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## hunt-n-fool (Oct 10, 2006)

I had a cva kodiak that shot really well with 80grs of T7, 90 was okay, and the more I put in it the larger the grouping.

less recoil as well.


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## SPH (Jan 20, 2004)

Yes, use 1 or 2 wet but make sure you ring it out a little so its not dripping wet. Then take 3-5 patches and dry the barrell out good. You do not need to clean out the breach plug each time but should clean it after you get home every time you go to the range. You do not want that stuff to sit in your breach plug or barrall for any amount of time. Just for your information I have had better luck with Pyrodex than I have with Tripple Seven. For some reason all the tripple seven that I have bought looks like its 10 years old and is dryed out and cracked and the weight is very inconsistant. I am not sure if they are still trying to sell stuff from a few years ago or what but the pyrodex seems to be more consistant. 

If I had my choice I would use loose powder but the pellets are to easy and I have hunted long enough that I think I am just getting lazy now.



Paul Thompson said:


> Now we are not talking a total clean out, flush and scrub, just a wet swab in and out about three or four times with your favorite solvent, then dry it out with a dry cloth swabbing, and reload.


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## LuckyRookie (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks a lot guys, I won't be able to make it to the range until Saturday morning but I will let you know if I make any progress.


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## souliog (Jan 10, 2009)

1. I would go ahead and bore-sight the gun again. You probally messed up the adjusters chasing the bullet around the target.

2. Since you know your first shot is good, i would sight the gun in at 50 yds using the first shot. All you need to do is shoot the first shot aiming at bullseye. 2nd thing is use a gun stand to hold gun exactly at bullseye the way you aimed it. 3rd. adjust scope to move reticle to the bullet hole. make sure you don't move the gun in the process.

3. Find the bullet/sabot/powder that gives you the best grouping before adjusting scope.

I've dialed in a new scope on a 30/30 with this method in 2 shots.


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## Drake (Dec 29, 2000)

wadevb1 said:


> I now use BH209 but managed to shoot 1"-1.5" groups with two Pyrodex fifty grain pellets. Pellets can be inconsistant on my scale but my Encore didn't seem to notice.
> 
> Sounds like your on the right track.





I was having similar problems with my encore- I tried everything bullets, primers, super sabots, differant powder brands from 90-150gr., cleaning swabing..........
Finally I tried Blackhorn 209,
now I use standard sabots that come with T/C Shockwave 250 gr. 

my .02
Dave


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

I am having major problems with my CVA buckhorn. Don't have a gun stand. I suspect part or most of the problem is me. Think I should probably start over at 25 yards, but I'm not sure if that might be too close using a scope. I was doing terrible at 50 yards. I have looked through my barrel and the scope at the same target and they do appear very close if not exact. I am using 777. I have been told that 209 is not approved for my muzzie.

Oh, and I'm using 245 grain powerbelts with 80 grains of 777 pellets.


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## JPC6000 (Jan 11, 2002)

My Omega load is 90 grains of loose Black Mag pushing a 295 powerbelt. Consistant 3 inch groups off a rest at 100 yards with open sights. Load developed for elk hunting in Colorado, where requirement is open sights, loose powder, no sabot. Powerbelts are accurate but would not use again on elk, bullet fragmented too much for elk in my experience, performance on deer acceptable.


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## 7iron (Feb 28, 2005)

There has been some really good advice given to your post. Some is better than others. Here comes the but, no one has mentioned "practice" you will get better groups with practice. Once you determine the "load" and the "sabot" that you are confortable with. Meaning using the same charge everytime and your in the "ballpark" its practice practice practice that will tighten your groups.

My .02


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## jjc155 (Oct 16, 2005)

I forget to mention too that I use the Harvest short black sabot in my gun and that got me an instant 1/2inch better in my grouping. Sabots play a huge part in accuracy as they are what actually are riding in the barrel and in contact with the rifling. To tight, too loose, to long, to short, too tight or loose on the actual bullet all affect accuracy.

J-


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## thunderduck2 (Aug 11, 2008)

check out randy wakemans inline muzzleloading web site there is a lot of info if you do some reading i know my tc encor likes the barns expander mz bullets 250 gr 100 gr 777 pellets3/4 group at 100 meters


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## fathom this (Feb 10, 2008)

LuckyRookie said:


> Sorry for the lack of information all. I have a variable 3X10 power scope on the Kodiak which I have been using wide open for purposes of sighting in. Also, I have been using 777 powder and primers and the new low drag variety of sabots (red). I have not been wet swabbing after each shot (only dry) perhaps this is the culprit? I also forgot to mention that the first shot out of the fresh barrel is usually quite good with the error from dead on most likely being mine and not the gun.


Do you clean the barrel before your first shot? Many guns if not cleaned of all oil before the first shot will be off as much as 6". This may be the reason your first shot appears to be good and the rest seem to be flyers. It is a good practice to " foul a muzzleloader barrel" with a first shot thus burning off any residual oil in the barrel. Then begin the sight in process, cleaning with moist patches followed by a dry patch.


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## awfulpotent (Oct 14, 2003)

helped my nieghbor site in last night he was using hornady sst's with a red three petal sabot and 100grns of loose powder the rounds were all over the place we inspected the spent sabots and found a least one petal missing off of every one of them switched to a four petal black sabot and cloverleafed at 75 yrds


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