# Turkey Hunters Alert!!!!!!!!!!!



## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

I just returned from the MWTHA turkey festival in Baldwin. 

While there I found out that there is talk in the DNR of relocating the ZZ line further north to include Newago and Oceana counties. By doing this it would most probably "END" public land hunting in these counties. 234 and ZZ permits are only good for private land in the zz area.

That means that of thousands and thousands of acres of land in these two counties would be "CLOSED TO TURKEY HUNTING".

As soon as I can find out the numbers to call to voice opposition to this I will post them.


----------



## Itch (Feb 10, 2005)

I think the MWTHA is getting the facts a little twisted. Again.

How exactly would extending the ZZ unit for PRIVATE LANDS ONLY have any bearing whatsoever on public land hunting? FACT: It would NOT. Never has, never will.

Here in southern Michigan there is the ZZ unit and we STILL have public land hunting areas. In fact, the public land hunting has IMPROVED dramatically because of the Unit ZZ hunt. The ZZ unit has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the public lands. They'd still be public, still be permitted via the lottery. Only thing that would change is private land hunters would essentially be guaranteed to draw the first two weeks of the season AND would be able to hunt the entire ZZ unit. If you want to hunt public land in those two counties, you apply for the license just like always.

The Unit ZZ hunt is a PRIVATE-LAND ONLY OPTION. If you want to hunt public land, you can.

And Hunt 234 would close down public land?????? The public land in southern Michigan has ALWAYS been closed during the 234 season. If you want to hunt the public land in southern Michigan, you MUST draw a tag for that area. It's always been that way, this is not new information. Redrawing the Unit ZZ line would NOT impact the public land in those two counties.

Was this information directly from the DNR or anyone that's been discussing these things with the DNR? There were a series of workshops with the rules advisory committee recently. But I don't think they happened before the "rendezous" so I'd be highly skeptical of the source unless it was someone who was actually a part of the rules process. Particularly since that issue was NEVER brought up at the meeting and, I don't believe, that it ever has been.

Hope that clears up the misinformation.


----------



## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Let me further explain to you what I am getting at-------- Oceana County and Newago counties at the present time are NOT in the ZZ area. Therefore during the 234 hunt period, public lands are open to hunt with a 234 permit.

If they are included in the ZZ area----- as I read it all public lands are closed to hunting with a 234 in ZZ therefore you would not be able to hunt the public lands in Newago and Oceana counties during that season. This is what we were told by Larry Smith the dnrs biologist that speaks annually at the Baldwin Festival


----------



## GlassRodFan (Jan 18, 2003)

Hi,

As Multibeard said (sorry, I didn't see your post until after sending mine), today hunt 234 allows public land hunting north of the ZZ area. If they redraw ZZ to be north of where it is now to include Newaygo and Oceana counties, that would change the ability of those with the 234 hunt to hunt in Newago and Oceana public land.

Public land hunting under the 234 hunt includes those areas north of unit ZZ. Changing this line would affect the public hunting options.


----------



## cedarlkDJ (Sep 2, 2002)

I don't hunt up there but I have friends that do..........since when have all public lands been open to hunting in 234 north of the ZZ line??????????
They are all open untill May 1st but, 234 goes from May 2nd - 31.


----------



## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

In the northern part of the lower and the UP, public lands have always been open for hunting in what was originally the experimental season. Now know as hunt 234. It used to be the Zone 2/3 boundry. This was before the inception of the ZZ hunt. 

They keep changing the boundry. Moving it north. Taking hunting lands away from the sportsman that hunt the 234 hunt. There have been times that the guys I hunt with have hunted on public lands in 5 counties in a long day of running and gunning.

I live in Oceana county and do not want to loose lands that I hunt to a change like this as there is no reason for it. These are not little tracts like small GMA's in the southern part of the state. A lot of them are tracks of 2 and 3 thousand acres.


----------



## Itch (Feb 10, 2005)

Hey Multibeard,

Let me start by apologizing. It sounded like I was jumping on you in my first reply. That wasn't my intent. There is a certain level of frustration regarding situations like this when a well-meaning group tries to make change for the better and another just criticizes every move. It's political stuff and I understand you've got nothing to do with that. Sorry if I came across wrong.

Here's my understanding: IF the ZZ line were extended, I'm betting that it will be for the Unit ZZ, private-land option only. I would not anticipate that they would include the 234 language in there because, frankly, it doesn't require any change. See what I'm saying? You could extend the ZZ hunt area to those counties. The ZZ hunt is the first two weeks of the season on Private land only. The theory is that some guys were applying for the early season and not drawing. If they have private land, the landowner controls the hunting pressure and they should get a tag if they want one. Thus the ZZ unit was created and the license quota is essentially limitless.

So you could change the ZZ boundary for the ZZ hunt only and leave the 234 language as is, with all the state open except the public units in southern Michigan because, precisely as you said, they're much smaller regions than the public units in your area. As I said, that's my BEST guess as to how they would change that but, again, I haven't heard that talk.

Did Larry (the DNR guy) specifically say it would change the 234 rules as well? Now that, I would disagree with UNLESS those public areas are seeing an excessive amount of pressure that's decreasing the hunt quality. As wrong as the DNR in many areas, I think they do a great job with the turkeys. The staggered seasons creates a high-quality hunt because it helps control pressure. But I don't hunt those public areas you're talking about so you'd know how they're hit better than me.


----------



## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Itch NO harm done. I can understand there being confusion the way our regulations are written.

The way all the regulations in the state are written it takes a philedelphia lawyer to figure them out. 

If you look at the guarenteed hunt explains that it is only good on private lands in the ZZ hunt area. If they make these two counties part of ZZ, public lands will be closed to use of the 234 permit.

They would have to make a specific exception for Oceana and Newago and I am sure they are not going to do this.

As soon as Larry mentiond this I posed the queston of public lands to him and he said it would close public lands in the 234 hunt.


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

As I understand it, moving ZZ north would mean that private landowners in northern Michigan and those with permission to hunt private lands would have a two week season to hunt on private lands only. Public lands would NOT be included in the ZZ hunt in northern Michigan. 

As it is written now, I don't believe 234 would be affected in northern Michigan, nor would the early limited quota hunts, if they were continued, however, changes are constant in the DNR and one never knows when they've come up with a new idea that I don't know anything about. All I can tell you is that they have been persistent in the last 10 years in continuing to attempt to open the spring turkey season to over the counter statewide despite every indication from hunters that it's not wanted. 

Now, if the early limited quota hunts that occur now in northern lower Michigan WERE eliminated, which would certainly make life easier for the DNR (no need for any lotteries at all, then), leaving only the ZZ hunt as an early hunt option....THEN public land would be affected. The first two weeks of the hunt would only be open to those with permission to hunt private lands. But I can't see them doing this, not with the popularity of both northern Michigan AND southern Michigan's limited early hunts, and the popularity of the limited public land hunts during the 234 hunt in southern Michigan. 

I'll find out more about this, I was unable to be at the Wild Turkey Festival yesterday so haven't heard the latest, but it's a sad fact that with every year there's a change in the regulations in northern Michigan that causes us to lose a little bit more of our quality turkey hunting that the average guy on public land can still enjoy in Michigan, although it gets tougher every year. Everything is done to favor the private landowner, whether that private landowner does anything for the resource or not. Thousands of them don't. 

One more step to leading us to the level where only the kings will hunt, the rest of us will poach. I can understand and empathize with a need to simplify our regulations, but we're not on the right path here at all. 

Coached by several southern Michigan NWTF chapters, MUCC's board of directors gave a "blanket" approval to this proposal, I'm told, without really looking into the proposal and its possible implications at all, even after the proposal was withdrawn from last year's convention. No one involved with the wild turkeys in northern Michigan was contacted for their thoughts by MUCC, it was simply approved at their last board of directors meeting. That's what I was told, and if that's true, how sad. 

Those of you who favor fall turkey hunting might also be interested in the DNR's proposal to create "open" fall turkey hunting areas THIS FALL....one more step.

I just shake my head at the DNR anymore when it comes to turkeys in this state...up here in northern lower Michigan, and in the UP as well, those turkeys don't exist on their own, like southern Michigan, or because of any work done by the DNR-they exist because of caring groups like the MWTHA, several chapters of Wildlife Unlimited, and some chapters of the NWTF that are able to raise funds for feeding-usually not very much compared to what they raise for their annual banquets, 95% of which goes to headquarters in SC and may well end up promoting wild turkeys in Arizona instead of Michigan or going into someone's expense account, but whatever they can raise on the side. 

For instance, the new chapter of the NWTF based in Gaylord raised $45,000 at their banquet this year, we were told. Last year's was equally as lucrative, I'm told, yet, despite a host of promises from them, those who are engaged in the northern winter feeding programs never saw a dime to actually help the turkeys of northern Michigan. I am always very dismayed and disheartened to run into people who innocently attended these banquets thinking their money was actually going to help the turkeys of northern Michigan in the form of winter feed.

The struggle to maintain our northern wild turkey populations gets harder every year in the face of all of these obstacles, yet the birds are still there.

I'll look into the present proposal for ZZ in northern Michigan, and get back to you. I first heard of it, btw, more than two years, ago. At that time it was pretty straight forward, pretty much like southern Michigan's hunt.

I am not opposed to this proposal because of any possible closures of public lands, in fact, I'd not heard of that at all until this thread. I am opposed to this proposal because it is just one more step in the WRONG direction.


----------



## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

If you look at the black outlined square in the booklet entitled "Guarenteed Hunt Period" it reads " A licence for the Guarenteed Hunt Period is valid for all open areas, ----EXCEPT---Public Lands other than enclosed, controlled access military land within the management area in the Southern Lower Penninsula Wild Turkey Management Unit---[Unit ZZ]

If Oceana and Newago counties were added to ZZ how would they alone be excempt from the above?


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

As I understand it, Tom, they would have to qualify the line between southern and northern Michigan by giving the ZZ hunt in northern Michigan a new name, something other than ZZ. NM, or something like that. I don't know, that's an interesting question. 

It's a quagmire, that's for sure.

Anyone who is interested in finding out more about this should contact Al Stewart, the DNR's Upland Gamebird Specialist, (turkey guy) in Lansing. A pity he wasn't at the Wild Turkey Festival, he could have cleared up all the questions then.


517-373-1263

[email protected]


----------



## turkeyhunter10ga (Feb 23, 2005)

I'm sure this won't happen for this years spring hunt , it could have an impact in the future. And i'm not sure how to interpret this , just like many others will have comments and questions reguarding this possible change.

Without getting a rule book and a lawyer to clarify the language , of which , my question is : This year my buddy and I got drawn for the first week in Unit K General , Area 0113 . The unit part i understand ,the area part we do not. We have a friend that is allowing us to use his private property to hunt. When applying for the lottery there was NO place to put in that you were wanting to hunt private or public land. So , i guess my question is: can we hunt both private and public or do we have to stay on just the private land that we are planning on ?


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Area K is in northern Michigan, so you can hunt anywhere on private lands that you have permission to hunt or on public lands. 

Any changes the DNR is considering for the ZZ unit or any other unit would not be implemented until at least next spring, but there's a real possibility that will happen. Input on the proposals will be taken at NRC meetings in November and December of this year.


----------



## turkeyhunter10ga (Feb 23, 2005)

Thanks for the clarification Linda


----------



## multibeard (Mar 3, 2002)

Linda, 

Larry did touch on the fall season. as far as knew there would be no fall season in 2005 in K except for possibly Oceana and Newago counties. Those two counties are biologist Jeff Greenes territory.

Thanks to Larry we got to hear about this zz change proposal before it was written as law. Too many times proposed changes are not heard about untill it is to late to do something about them. 

Thanks for the contact info for Mr Stewart. I will be getting a hold of him on the phone as well as thru email. 

I encourage every one else to voice there concerns about the loss of more public land hunting.


----------



## Itch (Feb 10, 2005)

Again, the Unit ZZ option to include those two counties does not necessarily mean they will be closed during the 234 option. It's an easy exception and would be worded something like: Open anywhere in the state except those public hunting lands in Unit ZZ excluding XXXXX in XXX counties. Very simple to do and I'm CERTAIN the DNR would listen as they have listened in the past. 


As for the recommendations at from the MUCC, I have an exact copy and can assure everyone that they were reviewed and scrutinized just as EVERY SINGLE UNDERTAKING CONCERNING THE NWTF is. That's what makes the NWTF the superb organization that it is. Those who imply otherwise, as was stated, go on hearsay and rumor not actual fact or merit. This is not a new situation. There is a small group out there that tries to bash everything the NWTF does and that's exactly what got me fired up in the first place on this issue. You have a group that doesn't have the facts yet presents their arguments anyway. That's the sad part.

And, no, winter feeding is not a priority because, as biologically proven, it's not an effective method for assisting the birds. It's a band aid and I'm not going to get into the debate because it's been done before. I only bring it up now because it was being voiced as a negative against the NWTF -- the organization which is wholly responsible for this state having the great turkey hunting that we have. Yes, a percentage of the funds from the banquets go into the national fund. But it's not 95 percent. Again, another blatant error in fact. It's less than 50 percent. 56 percent goes right into the STATE chapter fund and is doled out equally to each chapter based on the amount they put in. And I, for one, am not so narrow-minded nor greedy to think that only Michigan deserves to have wild turkeys. It's pretty pathetic that one who claims to hunt birds in other states would dare speak out against the organization that put the birds in those states in the first place.


As for the over-the-counter sales of licenses. THe NWTF has NEVER supported a one-season over-the-counter hunt. It still favors a staggered season situation because it creates a better quality hunt. Which, incidentally, is EXACTLY why the NWTF proposed the system in the first place.


----------



## Itch (Feb 10, 2005)

In the interest of accuracy and accountability, I thought I'd offer a few numbers.

This year, the state of Michigan received nearly $300,000 from local banquet efforts in 2004. Of that, more than $135,000 is doled out for habitat improvement projects including those as part of the Northern Michigan Habitat Enhancement Program that established food plots, plants trees, etc. on public lands in northern Michigan only.

An additional $3,000 was recently transferred for the NWTF's winter feeding program (implemented only when certain weather criteria is met, again it's a temporary fix).

Since 1985, more than $1.8 million has been spent on Michigan ALONE.

Where did the rest of the $300,000 go?

Well, $45,000 is distributed to fund JAKES, Women in the Outdoors and Wheelin' Sportsmen events to recruit more kids and women as well as handicapped hunters into the sport.

$60,000 is spent on education efforts and $15,000 is set aside for PRO-HUNTING efforts. The NWTF will also give about $15,000 a year to the DNR to help any way they need it.

And that's all SEPERATE from the funds individual chapters raise on their own through raffles, events, etc. And that can be a considerable sum, usually in the neighborhood average of about $5,000 PER CHAPTER.

So, while some paint the NWTF as anti-feeding, I would bet the NWTF and its local chapters spend MORE on feeding than any other group in the state. BUt the focus is and must be on habitat. THat's the key to the future.


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

Read my posts again. I never said the NWTF was anti-feeding in northern Michigan-they just don't contribute very darned much to it.

We spent $50,000 this winter keeping the birds in northern Michigan alive-and it was a mild winter. $3000 is a drop in the bucket, sorry, but it is...and where exactly did that money go, would someone like to point that out to me?

JAKES, WITO, etc.,...all great programs...where in northern lower Michigan are these taking place, do you happen to know? I don't, I certainly NEVER hear about anything, and I'd like to, I would love to give it some publicity, and I admire those programs-I am NOT against the work of the NWTF at all, where it is indeed happening. 

The same for habitat improvement efforts-where?? And as someone who ran a habitat improvement program for both the NWTF, when I was a member, and MWTHA, after we began that organization, I know all about the many thousands of dollars in food plots, plantings, shrubs, and trees that we spent-but none of that matters in mid-February when it's either been eaten by the deer or is buried under two feet of snow, a condition that usually lasts in northern Michigan from December until the end of March, mid-April in many parts of the UP. A wild turkey can only live for 3-4 weeks without an adequate and steady amount of nourishment. 

Feeding, a band-aid?? Well, it would be one helluva wound if we stopped feeding, and in just a year, maybe two, there wouldn't be enough birds in northern Michigan to have anywhere NEAR the hunt we have up here now. On public land, I seriously doubt we'd have any left at all-we all know what state our public lands in northern Michigan are in as far as habitat.

I'm glad to hear that the NWTF approved the proposal that MUCC apparently passed at that last board of directors meeting. You would think that the proposal would have been run by the OTHER groups involved with wild turkeys as well in the north, and that doesn't just mean the MWTHA, it also means the Wildlife Unlimited chapters in the UP...to my knowledge, none of these groups were contacted. Since most of the membership in NWTF in Michigan is located south of Clare, that makes you wonder, doesn't it??

It's always easy for the guy who hunts in southern Michigan to say feeding is bad, it's a band-aid, etc., etc., etc., because he doesn't hunt up here, and he doesn't care about northern wild turkeys-but god forbid anyone touch the birds he hunts. 

As someone who annually hunts in several other states for wild turkey, I would be the LAST person to believe that only Michigan should have wild turkeys. 

But I do believe that money raised for Michigan's wild turkeys should be spent on Michigan's wild turkeys. PERIOD.

And let's talk about those expense accounts again...or the cost of their national headquarters...or the salaries that Rob, Carl, and all the guys, including the top brass in Michigan like Steve make. 

Do you know how much Jim Maturen makes for 30 years of devotion to Michigan's wild turkeys? What his pension as a retired state police officer pays...same for Ivan and Bruce and a good many other of our officers. My income is what comes from my writing and my summer rental cabin, I'm looking for a job now that will pay the bills, and Rick Riley and the other presidents of the chapters make their living from their careers as phone line guys, foremen for auto companies, etc., not from our wild turkeys. 

I admire the NWTF for their tenacity, tho, this battle has gone around the bend for more than 30 years now...come on up here and live here for a couple of years, hunt the birds up here, get to know how it really works, instead of what you might see in a weekend, and let's see if you still sing the same old song...


----------



## Itch (Feb 10, 2005)

See this is EXACTLY the trouble with the group, half-truths and ignorance being touted as fact.


Hmm... never hunted the northern birds huh? Let's see, lived in the U.P. a good part of my younger lives where my grandparents were residents for about 15 years. Hunted my first FIVE turkey seasons in the Baldwin/Reed City area where my brother LIVED. Probably hunted as much on the PM Forest as anywhere I've hunted in the state. Guess maybe the tune I'm singing is right on key.

I've already told you that biology and science has PROVEN WITHOUT DOUBT that feeding is a band-aid and that it can't and won't be debated further. Period.

You never hear about the JAKES, WITO days? Well, perhaps there's a reason for that.

Here's a PARTIAL listing of the JAKES and WITO days in the next two months alone:
June 11, Menominee; May 14 Unionville WITO; May 7 Davisoin JAKES; JUne 4 Davision WITO; June 4, 45th Parallel JAKES; Aug. 6 Flint River JAKES; Aug. 20.

That's a very, very small sampling. The notion that the chapters in the northern parts of the state aren't holding these events is laughable and very, very telling.

No habitat improvement in the northern Lower huh? That's an absolutely ludicrous statement. And the $3,000 transfer I mentioned for feeding was just that an ADDITIONAL TRANSFER after more than $50,000 was spent. 

And, yes, PLEASE, let's talk about the salaries of those paid professionals. You know guys like Steve Sharp who have helped raise MORE THAN ONE MILLION DOLLARS for Michigan's wild turkeys, who sits in on virtually every important wildlife meeting in the Governor's office. Or how about the salary of Rob Keck who VOTED DOWN A PAY INCREASE FOR HIMSELF and who was the man to tell George W. Bush personally that he needs to make a statement about the importance of our hunting heritage.

And about that corporate office in SC. Just how much did it cost Linda? Well, better ask John L. Morris of Bass Pro Shops. Because he PAID FOR THE WHOLE THING and it didn't cost members of the wild turkey a dime. See, when you've only got about a third of the facts, you tend to get a lot of egg on your face. And really the sad part is that this has nothing to do with wild turkeys. It's all about ego. And you just can't win this. The NWTF is the nation's top conservation organization and the amount of work it does in a half-day blows away what your group does with its constant bickering, pot-shots and mistruths in a year.

So maybe it's time to just focus on the spring turkey season and thank the people who GAVE YOU the opportunity to look forward to hunting them in the first place rather than trying to talk down an organization with nothing but the interest and future of the wild turkey in mind.


----------



## Linda G. (Mar 28, 2002)

You believe what you like, and I'll believe what I like...

I do try to keep up with the Michigan chapter of the NWTF, check their website fairly frequently, talk with Steve and others on occasion. 

You take everything far too personally, I wasn't referring to you specifically in my last posting, you just assumed I was. I was referring to the vast majority of NWTF members in this state. Since you DO hunt in the Baldwin/Reed City area, I assume not just because your brother lived there but also because you enjoy the hunting there, you might want to consider helping out the folks who keep those birds going up there, and that would be Jim Maturen and his crew. 

The only northern Michigan listing for the Jakes and WITO programs you listed was in Menominee County-all the others are southern Michigan-got anything else in northern Michigan?

I never said there was NO habitat improvement in northern Lower Michigan-I myself have planted more than 10,000 trees and shrubs over the course of 20 years, and continue to do more every year, as do members of our chapters all over. What I said was that it has never gotten to the point, and never will with our deep snows, that we will be able to stop the feeding and still have our good numbers of birds. 

I don't care how much money folks like Steve Sharp have raised, I want to know what it's done for the birds in Michigan. What folks like Jim, Rick, Ivan, and myself do for the turkeys can't be put in terms of money, cause we've never made any. 

So....Bass Pro bought the NWTF their new headquarters, huh? Isn't that interesting-some would wonder what Bass Pro will get in return?...but that's a whole other subject...so what was the multi-million dollar headquarters fundraiser about that the NWTF held a few years ago?

I was a member for many years, I did get their mailings and attended state board meetings. All they ever talked about was raising money, in all the meetings I attended, never once was the subject of turkeys brought up. We had to go to meetings with the DNR about setting regs to talk about turkeys. 

As for who brought the turkeys to Michigan, c'mon....let's give our DNR a little occasional credit, huh?? Talk about half truths and ignorance.

Ah, I read your post again, and I see a listing for a JAKES program with the 45th parallel group, I assume that's the new Gaylord group, the one that's so mis-informed about who's keeping their birds going. Good for them for getting the kids involved, let's see if they'll spend $45,000 or even anything close to that on the kids that participate in that program. This very depressed area could use that kind of financial influx.


----------

