# Big Manistee Question



## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

I saw something of concern recently that may be related to what I have witnessed. I admit I don't have the proper knowledge or resources to pursue. However it s still a concern. I've heard about the FAAA based toxic pollution in groundwater in Grayling and Oscoda. What the symptoms are. How it has contaminated the AuSable and other watersheds. Correct me if im wrong but doesn't Manistee run thru Grayling? I remember seeing substantially more FOAM on the river last fall into early winter. I don't see it now but isn't a lot of the water locked up right now due to winter? Am i the only one to notice the increased symptoms? Has anyone collected the foam for testing. If not what can we do if the foam comes back in spring? There has always been some foam. But this was significantly more. Enough that I was puzzled. I do remember when I was in the Navy we had Haylon (not sure if this was it's name) to assist in hydrocarbon fires. I remember seeing Haylon leaking from a rusty pipe so I reported it. I was instructed to treat with hazmat protocol with specific instructions to contain and not allow into drainage till proper personnel could reach the scene. They were very concerned about it getting into the water.


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## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

PFCs/PFASs no idea what these are. Sounds like it really messed evthing up bad downstream of the base On the AuSable.


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## koditten (Sep 3, 2016)

Its good to be aware, but isn't the foam on the east side the result of underground contaminates from Wirtzsmith(sp) Air Force base? What major polluter is on the west side?

I did notice the foam on the Big Manistee last fall as well, but I attributed it to the large amounts of tannin's from the cedar swamps and the rotting leaves from rain run off. To me there did not seem to be more foam than usual. When the spillway from the dam opens, lots of foam is created.

Subscribed to what others mention.


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## -Axiom- (Jul 24, 2010)

The Manistee headwaters are to the northwest of Grayling, it doesn't go through Grayling.

The river does run through the Western portion of the National Guard property.


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## Boardman Brookies (Dec 20, 2007)

The out flow of Lake Margrethe is Portage Creek which is a sizable trib of the Manistee. I noticed more foam than usual this year. Now you have me thinking...


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

For anyone who is truly concerned about this, please reach out to the EPA - Environment Protection Agency.


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## Kisutch (May 26, 2011)

There has been increased water flow this fall and entire winter. The foam is not fire retardant from the headwaters. Please take a deep breath and relax old age will be your cause of death. These high flow rates have been causing massive foam lines since before you were born. Try fishing her when she's cranking over 4000 cfps foam is everywhere. And no I didn't call the epa. Really fishindude . Get a grip.

Kisutch

Former Lake Michigan Stakeholder

Seeforellen Brown Trout What?

Alewife Be Damned


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## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

Kisutch said:


> There has been increased water flow this fall and entire winter. The foam is not fire retardant from the headwaters. Please take a deep breath and relax old age will be your cause of death. These high flow rates have been causing massive foam lines since before you were born. Try fishing her when she's cranking over 4000 cfps foam is everywhere. And no I didn't call the epa. Really fishindude . Get a grip.
> 
> Kisutch
> 
> ...


I generally fish it >4 times a week 365 a year for 20+ years. All water conditions. Last fall when I first noticed it, the water was <2000cfps. From my observations, this was substantially more FOAM than usual. This was the first time I saw this much by far. Of course this is only from 20 years of observation on almost a daily basis. I only mention because, I just feel it would be prudent to ignore. Espec if there was some way/new technology to reduce/control the contamination if present. Also i heard gov entities were dragging feet, reluctant to test/diagnose on east side. It was not till local "do-gooders" came together, collected foam on their own for testing ect. Maybe I heard wrong, but used to be in the gov. I recommend not trusting the gov. Highly recommend.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

The toxins in the watershed of the lower Ausable are directly the result of chemical contamination at Wurtsmith AFB. I've heard that the city of Oscoda is putting in city water lines to some neighborhoods whose wells are also affected. Those chemicals would not migrate to the Big Manistee river.

Not sure what would cause foam in the river, but I've seen lots of foam there. Maybe it is from all the tannins last fall? Maybe someone dumped soap into the water upstream? Maybe it just is. Running a jig under a bobber down the "bubble line" is deadly for Steelhead.


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## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

Fishndude said:


> The toxins in the watershed of the lower Ausable are directly the result of chemical contamination at Wurtsmith AFB. I've heard that the city of Oscoda is putting in city water lines to some neighborhoods whose wells are also affected. Those chemicals would not migrate to the Big Manistee river.
> 
> Not sure what would cause foam in the river, but I've seen lots of foam there. Maybe it is from all the tannins last fall? Maybe someone dumped soap into the water upstream? Maybe it just is. Running a jig under a bobber down the "bubble line" is deadly for Steelhead.


They did many many many drills with the foam in Grayling as well. It's not or was only used by Air Force. All branches used it. And they all did practice drills with it.


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## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

Kisutch said:


> There has been increased water flow this fall and entire winter. The foam is not fire retardant from the headwaters. Please take a deep breath and relax old age will be your cause of death. These high flow rates have been causing massive foam lines since before you were born. Try fishing her when she's cranking over 4000 cfps foam is everywhere. And no I didn't call the epa. Really fishindude . Get a grip.
> 
> Kisutch
> 
> ...









spring 2017 >4000cfps normal foam.


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## sportsman98 (Dec 6, 2010)

Its not a chemical that I'd want near the river or me but from grayling to tippy is a long stretch and it'd have go to through two impoundments. In my opinion it'd have to be a large spill in order to not disperse and carry all the way down the river. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


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## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

sportsman98 said:


> Its not a chemical that I'd want near the river or me but from grayling to tippy is a long stretch and it'd have go to through two impoundments. In my opinion it'd have to be a large spill in order to not disperse and carry all the way down the river.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Michigan Sportsman mobile app


I guess that 12ppt is considered contaminated past safe limit. On east side which is not related but same chems, some tests showed >166,000ppt. Just a thought. I believe ppt is parts per trillion. So it prob doesn't take much. But again, my knowledge is limited. Sorry


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## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

I propose we get an independent permission to establish if there are plumes similar to east side. From there we dig a ditch surrounding the contamination. Past water depth. Thus they would be canals. Have a pump draw contaminated water from canal and purify in a drum with charcoal. Then discharge treated water safely away like 500ft+ by pipeline. By drawing water out, maybe the inflow of water, by pump will suck most up. Instead of just letting spreading out. Let it spread out by ignoring will only make it impossible to contain and treat. They could have their guys do it too. I'm sure they have equipment to dig. If not the fraction of cost to dig is irrelevant. Disposing of hazmat would be easy too, have your guys run drills, learn how to change charcoal and dispose properly by running drills, teaching service members who are required to be there for duty. Would be a great opportunity to run some hazmat drills and have our troops prepared for hazmat/chemical readiness like maybe a future chemical spill or something. Again, my knowledge is limited. And I barely passed high school. But at least I'm trying folks.


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

In Oscoda, the contamination is in the groundwater, which flows slowly underground. You might have to dig deep, like 75 - 100 feet, and contain an area that covers 100s of square miles. How would that be done?


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## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

Fishndude said:


> In Oscoda, the contamination is in the groundwater, which flows slowly underground. You might have to dig deep, like 75 - 100 feet, and contain an area that covers 100s of square miles. How would that be done?


Not sure. I' not an expert. But I know from what I have read, in oscoda they currently are required to have two filtration units in operation as of 2016, utilizing charcoal filtration. Right now they only have one. And I'm not sure the one they have, is even in operation anymore. Maybe the case in Grayling is different. Maybe it could be contained in a different system. Maybe not. Maybe in the case of oscoda, it could have been contained more aggressively if we didn' push it under a rug. Question. Do you have children? Do you have friends or family that have children? Would you suggest not doing anything? Just let the children take care of it and suffer from it? Or should we make this issue come out from the shadows now, and start doing what we can. Ultimately there is two options. Do nothing or do something?


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

In Oscoda, I heard they are running city water lines to residences affected by the tainted ground water. Here is a link to articles about it, if you would like to be

informed.http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/04/wurtsmith_pfas_pfc_april_45_me.html

http://www.wbkb11.com/the-history-behind-oscodas-water-contamination


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## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

Fishndude said:


> In Oscoda, I heard they are running city water lines to residences affected by the tainted ground water. Here is a link to articles about it, if you would like to be
> 
> informed.http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/04/wurtsmith_pfas_pfc_april_45_me.html
> 
> http://www.wbkb11.com/the-history-behind-oscodas-water-contamination


This link better explains more about how they are required to contain pollution by the state, but air force refuses to comply. Check it out folks. 
https://weather.com/science/environment/news/2018-02-08-michigan-lake-toxic-foam


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## Fishndude (Feb 22, 2003)

Is that the kind of foam you see at Tippy Dam? The only picture you posted was from a while ago.


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## Fishontippydam (Dec 29, 2017)

Fishndude said:


> Is that the kind of foam you see at Tippy Dam? The only picture you posted was from a while ago.


I do not unfortunately. When I noticed it, i didn't even realize it. But yesterday foam appeared to be normal, altho I did notice from the foam that was apparent, the bubbles seemed to be smaller and whiter than usual. It's always had foam. Always. Just seems to be a different type. Like a frothy foam. Not bubbly. Right now at the dam, 20ft below coffer, there is enough foam to collect for testing, but doesn't appear to be more than normal. But would also recommend testing again if larger amounts show up after the thaw when water is no longer locked up. And when I see the suspicious foam again, I will make sure I take pics.


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