# Could someone take the time to explain....



## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

Den said:


> I will not, however, be attending anymore QDM meetings, nor offering any support to this organization, monetarily or otherwise. It is a shame that most QDMA practitioners I have met are in the mold of QDMAMAN; perhaps the organization should select a better spokesperson.


I'm really sorry that you feel this way Den. 

I also feel that QDMAMAN is getting the sharp edge of your angst, and that it isn't very fair. Tony is nothing more than an individual/hunter passionate about improving the over-all quality of our deer herd. He's not an elitist, nor trophey hunter, just someone willing to put his neck out on the line and help educate Michigan hunters about the benefits of letting young bucks walk. Many people appreciate what he has done, and so do I.

I just think it's perception Den; you're throwing your spite at the wrong person/people/organization. If you don't buy what we have to say, that's fine....debate us all you want.

There's way too many areas where QDM/voluntary antler restrictions are practiced successfully, to know that it works if given a chance.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Michihunter said:


> Forget trophies, just give me a deer!! Who cares whether or not a person shoots a spikehorn. If that's what they want let them shoot it.
> 
> You're making my point.
> 
> Big T


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## Swamp Ghost (Feb 5, 2003)

Don't let these guy's "sincerity" fool you, they know all about QDM and are dead set against it. They simply want more living targets, no matter what the cost. They can't see the forest through all those damn trees.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

I am sorry to my fellow QDMers for taking the bait. I certainly don't want the courages efforts of those that came before me to be tarnished in any way and I certainly don't anyone to feel uncomfortable about defending my comments.

When I'm asked why I practice QDM and give a sincere answer that in no way could be interpreted as being all about big racks I bight back.

Your right Swamp Ghost they already know and nothing including results are going to change there mind.

hartman886, If you think that QDM won't work on a statewide basis you're right. If you think that it can work you're also right. It's already working on a statewide basis in other states with positive results.

How many on this thread have actually talked to their local DNR biologist to find out what they really feel about QDM. I can tell you that the field people are commited individuals that love what they do and don't do it for the money or prestigue and that they would love to leave a legacy of possitive progress.
The DNR people in Lansing are on record saying that they will manage Michigan's deer herd for the "Maximum recreational value". Rod Clute has express to me that his constituency is the 750,000+ hunters that buy a lic. and he has also said that "in Michigan would be a good thing" except that he doesn't believe ARs are the best way to get there. On this we agree.

glen, If you want to help your local DNR biologist collect data why don't you take a moment to ask them what you can do to help, it works.

I am reminded that you catch more flys with honey than with vinegar so for the sake of the cause I will temper my posts.

Big T


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Describing the "why" of QDM would require a book-length response (and that's why we wrote a book about it, to give hunters the full biological story behind the management philosophy).

I see many complaining that QDM is just about big bucks. Do QDM practioners want to see and shoot big bucks? Sure they do, as do most deer hunters. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with personally benefitting from managing a deer herd in a manner that promotes the long-term health of the herd and the environment? QDM, while producing a healthier herd and habitat, will also produce larger, healthier, older deer for harvest. Is that a bad thing?


Den,

Some hunters want the hunting "experience" and typical harvests of a QDM type herd. Some do not. Nothing wrong with that. Each of us want something different from our deer hunting. But there is no free ride in deer management. To "gain" something, you have to "give up" something. If seeing a lot of deer is important to your hunting enjoyment, then QDM may not be for you. If having to pass up legal bucks doesn't appeal to you, then QDM probably isn't for you. But to obtain or maintain that "high deer sightings, harvest any antlered buck" type experience, you are going to have to give up deer "size." And by size I mean age and health. Higher density deer herds are less healthy deer herds. Less healthy deer herds average lower in body weight. When any buck is targetted, most bucks are killed when they only 1 1/2 years old. Yearling bucks generally do not produce anywhere near the antler size as older bucks. So, if you want to hunting experience of being able to shoot any antlered buck you see, you can do that, but you aren't going to see or shoot many large-antlered bucks, simply because few bucks will live to the age required to produce large antlers. Plus, since the bucks you kill are primarily young, they will be small in body.

When considering management philosophies, there are two primary aspects to consider:

1) The herd dynamics (herd composition by sex and age) the harvest strategy will produce.
2) The type of hunting experience the herd dynamics will produce. Certain herd structures will correspondingly produce certain hunting experiences.

QDM enthusiasts and practioners want to produce a specific herd dynamic because that dynamic will in turn produce a specific hunting experience. And before those opposed to QDM jump all over that statement, they do the exact same thing. They are usually opposed to QDM because it doesn't produce the hunting experience *they want*. The one thing the QDMers have in their favor is the esoteric knowledge that the herd dynamics they are producing are good for the deer herd and the environment in the long-run. Traditionally managed herds (herds managed for quntity of deer) are usually damaging to the herd and the environment in the long-run.

Some hunters want to see a lot of deer and want to be able to shoot any buck of choice. QDM is not for these hunters.

Some hunters are willing to give up high deer sightings and the ability to shoot any buck to produce larger, healthier deer. These hunters will love QDM.

All that said, even though I am a huge proponent and practioner of QDM, I would still prefer it be a voluntary program instead of regulated/manditory. To each, their own. Manage for the hunting experience you want to have.


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## TnRidge (Aug 29, 2004)

Good post ,BSK . If that doesn't sum it up in a nutshell ,nothing will . I agree QDM is not for everyone . To each ,his own .Trophy size racks are a fortunate by product of QDM , who wouldn't want that ?
I think there are some guys who want to blame everyone (DNR,QDM),but themselves for their lack of success last season .
Each hunter is responsible for their own success . No one is forcing them to live where they live ,hunt where they hunt ,or pull the trigger on a deer they choose to shoot . The ultimate decision is with each individual hunter ,not the DNR or anyone else .


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## Den (Dec 14, 2004)

I fear that I came off as a person who "already had his mind made up" about QDM. Nothing could be further than the truth, and I do appologize if it appeared that way. Must be, because I have been accused of being just that way, by several people. I came here asking legitimate questions of those with more knowledge of QDM/QDMA philosophies and practices. I wanted first hand knowledge. Does it work, in real life, not just on paper. Certainly, the larger rack issue is accomplished by letting younger, less mature deer pass. Of course planting food plots and improving habitat will assist in improving overall herd health. These things have been done for many, many years by individuals; even before the advent of QDMA. I was hoping for legitimate conversation concerning QDM as a whole, and how it would effect me directly. What could I expect to see in 2, 3, 5, 10 years if I bought into this program? What I got, for the most part, was robot-like responses full of rhetoric and propoganda. I fear my suspicions were correct in that QDM is mainly about producing large racked animals, and less about anything else. Again, I appologize. I should never have come looking for truth in the world of elitists. To those of you who posted "real, legitimate" answers, I do thank you. As I said, I will continue to practice many of the QDM ideas, I just cannot be convinced to join forces with this group. A shame, too, as a couple of my neighbors have. Guess it will be me against them, eh?


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## GrizzlyBear (Apr 27, 2003)

> Guess it will be me against them, eh?




Wow, that quote says volumes about you. Great call SG, I will now bow out.


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## BSK (Apr 10, 2004)

Den asked:
*What could I expect to see in 2, 3, 5, 10 years if I bought into this program?*

That depends on so many factors that a hestitate to offer an opinion. Current habitat, planned changes in habitat, actual deer harvest density by sex and age, acres of land involved, harvest practices of your neighbors, type of hunting you prefer, and many other factors will all have major impacts on what you would experience.

And then there is the difference between the actual herd structure/dynamics that exist on the property and surrounding area compared to what you as a hunter would see/experience.

I'm lucky to work with landowners all over the Eastern US. I help them develop site-specific management programs for their personal property, whether that management practice is Traditional, Quality or Trophy based. Our company helps them produce a management program that will produce the hunting experience they want. I can honestly say we have never failed to produce the herd dynamics we wanted, however, from time to time, we have failed to meeting hunters/managers desired expectations. Why? Usually one of several reasons:

1) Either they didn't believe us when we told them what they would have to give up to get the desired results; or
2) They underestimated how much the things they would have to give up mattered to their satisifaction with the hunting experience (the most common being total deer sightings--they underestimated how much high deer sightings meant to their hunting ejoyment); or
3) The didn't believe us when we told them that producing certain deer would be easy, but seeing and harvesting them would require a completely different hunting style than they were used to. Basically, there are many simple hunting strategies that will successfully produce young buck harvests. On the other hand, it takes some some fairly specific and complicated hunting strategies to _regularly_ harvest older bucks or mature does that have been under intense harvest pressure for most of their lives.

What I'm getting at is "growing"/producing older bucks is actually quite simple. Seeing and killing older bucks is a completely different story. A hunter's hunting tactics that have proven successful year after year for harvesting young bucks may be inadequate for fooling older, more experienced and savy older bucks.


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

> I wish someone would just call it what it really is: Quality Trophy Buck Management. That, I could accept, and perhaps even embrace. But don't feed me doodie, and call it fudge.


Yes, with statements like that one, it is quite understandable that some may think you already have your mind made up. You asked if someone "Could someone please explain the entire philosophy of QDM". A few replied politely to your request posting the information that they thought you were asking for. Maybe you should have been more clear that you wanted real life experiences more clearly.

I would be happy to share mine, if you really want to hear it. 

Neal


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## Bluegill Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

A couple of things I do not understand. Could someone from MI explain how we are going to make our deer herd better by killing only the trophy deer and saving the small spikes for breeding? Then kill all the does that you see. I also constantly hear balanced B/D ratio. I understand the FB and other insurance Cos want a balanced ratio of no bucks and no does. What does QDM call balanced?
I dont see are farmers keeping a bull for every cow, nor do I see them saving the runts for breeding purposes.


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## Den (Dec 14, 2004)

That is why I came here. The local chapter of QDMA has alienated a number of property owners and hunters, and I truely wanted real life experiences. I didn't come here to argue or have pissing matches, but I didn't come to be accused either. As I said, some have posted truely helpful information, others have not and have been, IMO, borderline insulting. I don't take kindly to insults, and I have appologized if I came off as something other than sincere. For the record, for anyone who cares, I own three parcels totaling 165 acres, and they are all within one township. I have a good mixture of crop land (leased to farmers, approx 90 acres), some seasonally wet swampy area (around 15 acres), 20 acres of overgrown Christmas trees, and approx 40 acres of good hardwoods with a fair amount of mast crop trees. Have divided all crop lands into 10-15 acre "lots" and planted windrows (fencerows). Have 9 food plots, all in biologic. Any input as to how to better it?


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## Jeff Sturgis (Mar 28, 2002)

Den,

Adequate buck age structure
Populations in balance with the habitat
Adequate sex ratios

Those are the QDM biological basics, and with the help of the understanding of that philosophy and the QDMA, this is my personal experience on private property that was featured in an early 2004 article in Quality Whitetails:


Let me paint a picture for you&#8230;. 120 Acres covered with pockets of older-age spruce, cedar, pine, soft maple, and fir, blended in with a substantial portion of tag-alder creek bottom, and clear-cut openings from the early 80&#8217;s, full of a variety of young pine. Soils consisting of primarily a sandy loam, with pH levels in the 4.1 to 5.2 ranges. Little to no mast crop, fruit crop, or farmland growing within 20 miles. A population of less than 5 deer frequenting the property on a daily basis, contributing to less than 5 total rubs from the previous year, and no evidence of any scraping activity. 

So how do you see it, five-year dream or nightmare?

In 1998 it became a dream, and in July of 1999, when the 120-acre parcel was added to our adjoining 10 acres and home, it became a reality. It also became the acceptance of year-round management, year-round stewardship, year-round planning and year-round work. But not all work is created equal, and after three and a half years of molding and shaping, the results of hours of &#8220;fun-work&#8221;, have been extremely rewarding.

The Molding and Shaping:

In 1999 I joined the QDMA, and through them, I was introduced to Ed Spinnazola, President of the Mid-Michigan QDMA branch, now a board member of the national QDMA. It turned out Ed was a food plot expert, not to mention full of generosity in both time, and even a little seed. As was stressed in most publications at the time, Ed stressed the importance of liming, as well as variety in planting, including both warm and cold-season forages. Along with Ed&#8217;s advice and information obtained largely from the QDMA&#8217;s Quality Whitetails book and Quarterly Whitetails magazine, I formed the basis for my plan.

It was also in 1999 that I was privileged enough to meet fellow central U.P. area resident and nationally known white-tailed research biologist, John Ozoga. John is not only an expert in local herd research, but has been an invaluable reference for local scientific insight and herd structure.

In august of 2001 my continuing plan was reinforced, as I hired Mark Thomas, also a national board member of the QDMA, to evaluate my actions, and make any recommendations of improvement. Mark and I spent approximately nine hours of walking and talking on the property, while I did my best to absorb the countless insights that Mark shared with me. 

The information gleaned from Mark, John, Ed, and the QDMA, has lead to what I believe has been the successful foundation of the start a journey of many years to come.

The Food Plots:

Entering the 2000-hunting season, I had been able to hire a bulldozer to help create two food plots totaling 1 acre. Two years later, by the start of the 2002 hunting season, and approximately 22 tons of lime later, I had a total of 4 ¼ acres of food plots. During a warming trend around Christmas of 2002, I had been able to start another ¼ of an acre of food plot, with the remaining portion of that particular area being added, limed, and leveled in the spring of 2003, as well as the completion of another adjoining ¼ acre area. Additionally, two other ¼ acre &#8220;harvest plots&#8221; are planned for the summer of 2003, bringing the total of food plot acreage entering the 2003 hunting season to a projected 5¼ acres, with each 40 acre parcel offering various sizes of food plots. Each year the effects of lime have been dramatic, from unfertile, almost useless soil, to a productive clover field in just one-year!

The Strategy:

What to plant, how to plant it, where to plant it, and why? Access roads, safety zones, treestand locations, and native plant management. What deer to harvest and how many?

In general, I&#8217;ve tried to build everything to accommodate a &#8220;stealth&#8221; approach, an approach in which my hunting and daily activities can be carried out with little human to deer contact. All aspects of the property revolve around a centrally located large non-hunted food plot, and a high percentage of &#8220;safety-zone land&#8221;. This is where the planning comes in. When shaping a piece of land, mistakes can be costly and irreversible, and because of this I decided to make the investment of hiring an expert, as my efforts were becoming quite extensive.

Mark Thomas came to me highly recommended and with a wealth of field experience, education, and knowledge. Overall, Mark reaffirmed the direction my plan was taking, and had a couple of key suggestions. First, Mark saved me from a recommendation of a local state forester to build a pond in a particular area of the property. After seeing this portion of the property for the first time, Mark immediately suggested I do very little with the site, which meant no food plots, and especially no ponds. Mark informed me that this particular area held the best variety of preferred native vegetation and browse species on the entire property! It would have been a costly mistake to build a food plot in this location, and even worse, a pond. Mark&#8217;s recommendation wasn&#8217;t exactly to &#8220;do nothing&#8221;, but to lime and fertilize this area to further enhance the attractiveness the area already possessed. 

The second aspect of Mark&#8217;s recommendations was an interspersion index feature. This feature is basically a harvest plot, with various planted spokes heading into different directions to resemble a &#8220;crows foot&#8221;, from the air. The long narrow spokes, always close to cover, promote increased daytime feeding activities, as well as increased viewing and harvest opportunities. I have incorporated this with my food plots in that they have various spokes or irregular indentations, and most are primarily long and narrow.

Mark also confirmed two other aspects of property strategy. First, a harvest goal I had developed in talking to John Ozoga, in that doe fawns would be an appropriate harvest target, as well as bucks at least 2.5 years of age. And secondly, a recommendation to leave the timber and young growth on the property just the way it is, with excellent screening, bedding, thermal, and escape cover already present.

Finally, another important piece of the &#8220;stealth&#8221; approach strategy is the trail system and tree stand usage. My access trails avoid crossing food plots, and the majority of the food plots are rarely hunted, with the bulk of the hunting activities taking place on travel routes to and from bedding areas. Some have suggested I plant a portion of my trail network, but I have chosen to stay away from this practice due to the fact that it greatly increases the human to deer contact frequency. My treestands are numerous and not overused. Some treestands are hunted only once per season, in the perfect situation of wind, time of year, and time of day, and most are hunted less than three times. 

Some may find my &#8220;stealth strategy&#8221; a little extreme, but on limited acreage it has been my experience that it takes very little human to deer contact to effectively damage the comfort level of an entire local deer herd. I may eventually chart my findings of my established camera locations, but I have found that deer may completely avoid an area for 2 to 3 days, previously being visited multiple times per day, after just one intrusion of stand set-up, construction, or even heavy ATV use. My strategy is an intensive one, but I feel my efforts are already beginning to be rewarded.

The Rewards:

In 2000 I was able to find less than 5 rubs on the property from the previous season, and one small scrape. It was quite evident from track counts found on the property, that there were less than 5 deer using the property on a daily basis. It was actually common to be unable to find a fresh deer track for 2 to 3 days at a time on the property&#8217;s 1.5 miles of trails and 2-tracks! By the beginning of the 2000 hunting season I had been able to have a bulldozer establish two separate food plots totaling 1 acre, and a third ¼ acre food plot was established with Ed Spinnazola&#8217;s recommendations of multiple herbicide treatments, and a spring-toothed harrow. Although the initial food plot quality was low, deer began using the property on a daily basis, and my viewing opportunities within bow or rifle range increased dramatically. I also received my first buck picture on the property, a small spike, and later captured a 2.5 year old 8-point on a migration trail in December. The rub and scrape counts stayed about the same as the previous year, but it was obvious the daily deer activities were increasing, and the positive steps, although &#8220;baby steps&#8221;, were encouraging for 2001.

During the 2001 season, with the addition of a tractor, I was able to increase the food plot total to 3.5 acres. With established mineral stations and food plot funnels in place to effectively monitor daily activities, it was easy to create a camera census of the daily deer population using the property. Mark Thomas toured the property in late August and stated he thought about 15 deer were using the property on a daily basis, based on track count and sign. After the hunting season, while scouring numerous game photos, I was able to make the following population determination: Six mature does, 4 yearling does, only 1 fawn (due to an extremely harsh late winter/spring combination), and 3 yearling bucks. In addition, I was able to harvest a healthy 2.5 year old 8-point that had been residing on the extreme edge of the property, for a total population of around 15 deer. Mark couldn&#8217;t have been any closer in his estimation, and this offered further evidence of the validity and expertise of his suggestions. &#8220;Last but not least&#8221; for 2001, were the over 40 rubs and over 20 scrapes found throughout the property boundaries! My &#8220;baby steps&#8221; for the property were getting bigger, and although I love passing the winter months scouting, while listening to my beagles run the numerous snowshoe rabbits that now benefit from the increased food supply, I couldn&#8217;t wait for the upcoming management season of 2002. 

2002 was a great year in many ways. By the start of the 2002-hunting season, I was able to establish another food plot totaling ¾ acre, bringing the total food plot acreage to 4 ¼ acres. The game camera pictures were coming often and in John Ozoga&#8217;s opinion, they were mirroring the five-peaked daily activity rhythm feeding patterns of the white-tailed deer. On several locations, including the ¾ acre field I had just established, feedings were occurring consistently at mid-morning, mid day, late afternoon, and twice during the night. My own personal observation suffered as I spent 5 prime hunting weekends away from home, while hunting whitetails in WI and PA. But by the end of the season, the game cameras confirmed the movements of six different 8-points, of 2.5 to 3.5 years of age, 6 to 7 mature does, and 8 fawns! The game cameras also supported the findings of limited fawns the previous year, in that just 1 yearling was captured on film, a fat and healthy spike. Although there was a similar amount of rutting sign within the property boundaries, both rubs and scrapes had increased in size and intensity.

Looking Forward to the Future:

There are indeed limits as a result of owning a &#8220;smaller&#8221; piece of property, but while staying within those limits, and establishing realistic long-term management and harvest strategies, a property of restricted size can experience dramatic improvement in both quality and attraction. Our property has several limiting factors that have been taken into consideration, including: Size of property, substantial amounts of bordering public lands, low soil quality, and the migration patterns and yarding characteristics of the resident deer population. Staying within these limits, I still feel that I have achieved the best &#8220;120 acre parcel&#8221; in the area. With the tips and tactics I have been able to incorporate into the property, many from information I&#8217;ve learned directly from the QDMA, or the QDMA&#8217;s Quarterly Whitetails magazine, I have been able to produce a solid foundation of strategic management philosophy. This foundation will insure a successful future for the long-term attractiveness and productivity of the property&#8217;s habitat. The management of the property will be a never-ending tale of &#8220;fun work&#8221;, but as the 4th season of management activities approaches, the property is well on it&#8217;s way to becoming the property I started dreaming about almost 5 years ago. It all starts with a five-year plan of setting priorities for each year and being diligent, but not &#8220;over-worked&#8221; in your actions. In the end of your hard work, and as the realization of your dream takes shape, you will find that not only have you increased the level of enjoyment and productivity of your property, but you will have experienced the rewards of being not just a &#8220;hunter&#8221;, but a &#8220;Manager


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

hartman886 said:


> I dont understand why a 2 1/2 year old is considered a quality deer verses a 1 1/2 old.


That is because you don`t understand what *we* mean by the term quality deer. You are looking at one individual deer and asking why is this deer not a quality deer? QDM is not looking at individual deer. QDM is looking at the deer herd. A quality deer *herd* is a deer herd that has a balanced age structure, a balanced sex ratio and is in balance with it`s habitat. It doesn`t matter how old that deer is, if the herd is not in balance. It doesn`t matter if the bucks are living to 6 1/2 years old if the population is too large for the habitat and fawn recruitment is slim or non existent. 

I hope that helped to explain it. A quality deer herd is a balanced deer herd. Look at the deer herd where you hunt, don`t just look at one individual deer.


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## hartman886 (Aug 29, 2004)

Swamp Ghost said:


> Don't let these guy's "sincerity" fool you, they know all about QDM and are dead set against it. They simply want more living targets, no matter what the cost. They can't see the forest through all those damn trees.


You Are sooooo far off base. Iv'e stayed out of these threads for the most part. But statements like this is why I posted. First off you have NO idea how I manage my property and the property I have permission to hunt. You have no way of telling my SINCERITY from a few lines on your screen. My post ARE from the uninformed standpoint. How can you sell a program to neighbors when THEY happen to think it is an elitest groop and only a trophy program. FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE I HAVE HAD. No I do not buy QDM books or attend QDM meetings. So my info comes from word of mouth. Right or wrong that's also how many people get their info on QDM. I can say that I have had questions answered(thanks) others not (at least in a way I understand). I will leve the statewide part to onther time. ONE more thing EVEN IF this thread WAS a BAIT AND SWITCH it still gives one more time to put out information on QDM. Others read they just may not post a reply.And I am shure minds are changed all the time ,if not we wouldn't even still be talking about QDM. It seems to be a growing trend. chris


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## Neal (Mar 20, 2001)

Chris, I could be wrong, but I don't think SG was referring specifically to you.

Neal


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## Bwana (Sep 28, 2004)

hartman886 said:


> You Are sooooo far off base. Iv'e stayed out of these threads for the most part. But statements like this is why I posted. First off you have NO idea how I manage my property and the property I have permission to hunt. You have no way of telling my SINCERITY from a few lines on your screen. My post ARE from the uninformed standpoint. How can you sell a program to neighbors when THEY happen to think it is an elitest groop and only a trophy program. FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE I HAVE HAD. No I do not buy QDM books or attend QDM meetings. So my info comes from word of mouth. Right or wrong that's also how many people get their info on QDM. I can say that I have had questions answered(thanks) others not (at least in a way I understand). I will leve the statewide part to onther time. ONE more thing EVEN IF this thread WAS a BAIT AND SWITCH it still gives one more time to put out information on QDM. Others read they just may not post a reply.And I am shure minds are changed all the time ,if not we wouldn't even still be talking about QDM. It seems to be a growing trend. chris


Chris, I agree with Neal. I do not believe Swamp ghost was referring to you.

As for the Statewide issue, I really don't know how to answer that particular issue other than by saying "I believe it would work on a statewide basis". Maybe if you explained why you don't think it would work I/we could respond to individual points of reference and alleviate your fears where we can. But your saying it won't work and my saying it will work will leave us with a "taste great'..."less filling" scenario that will be pointless in my opinion .


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## hartman886 (Aug 29, 2004)

Neal said:


> Chris, I could be wrong, but I don't think SG was referring specifically to you.
> 
> Neal


I under stand that. However I do think it included me. I have seen the old bait and switch here before. I have also seen things taken the wrong way. Reading off the computer is deffinatly not face to face. Emotions are an inportant part of communication. You don't have that in black and white. That said my reply to swamp ghost reads MUCH harsher than intended. I am not foaming at the mouth as the post makes it seem. I do stand by the content . However I am not in any way ANGRY. As for the statewide issue . I am just having a hard time keeping up . chris


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## Letmgro (Mar 17, 2002)

Ya know...

I have what I consider "lots of friends", and I'm very thankful for this. Is every single friend of mine ONLY a QDMer? No. Not hardly. 

Many of my friends are hunters and I'm sure most understand my position on QDM. Do they all practice it? No.

Do they shoot little bucks? Yes

Are we still friends? 

Without a doubt!

Anytime a QDMer is called an Elitist, it's simply just because that individual is unwilling to except another opinion, other than that of their own. :sad:


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## Happy Hunter (Apr 14, 2004)

"A quality deer herd is a deer herd that has a balanced age structure, a balanced sex ratio and is in balance with it`s habitat. "

How does QDMA define a balanced age structure. What percentage of the buck should be 1.5,2.5 ,3.5 and 4.5? What is a balance age structure in the doe herd?

What is the definition of a balanced sex ratio? Is it 1:1 , 1:1.3 ,1:1.5 or 1;2 ?

How many over wintering DPSM would there be if the herd was in balance with the habitat in a 5 SM stand of saw timber in the UP. How would that compare with a herd in southern tier with mixed farm land and wooodlots?

Is it better to simply limit the number of bucks harvested ,or is it better to implement AR?


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## beerguide (Dec 2, 2003)

Personally QDM has given me an incredible renewed excitement in Hunting. I admit I want to see "Bigger and Better" bucks, does'nt everybody? 
After 25+ years in hunting for many years during which time I luckily have become skilled enough to consistently harvest my two buck limit on a yearly basis while doing so I have come accustomed to passing up a number of bucks every year in hopes of them making it another year. 
After a number of years of this management practice it became quite clear that it can not be done alone and even then, long before I ever even heard of QDM I had thoughts of... "I wish I could get my neighbors to start passing on these bucks". 
Well through the years I have accumulated antlers on a header in my 40x40 ft. pole barn side by side end to end a collection of so called "meat bucks" some of which I have no recollection of even shooting anymore mixed in with a handful of respectable 2 1/2 year olds. It was apparent I wanted more out of my hunting experiences.
A few years back I started hearing about a thing called QDM and the more I heard the more I liked. I soon became a member and learned about starting a Co-op; harvesting a doe where appropriate and food plots;sanctuaries; and many other ways of creating a better habitat and since implemented many of those ideas on the small 35 acre family farm with much success. During this time my brother and I began talking to neighbors about QDM with the idea of starting a co-op.
As of to date we have approx. 3000 acres in our Co-op which we named "County Line Co-op" that are on board with us and rapidly growing. We just finished our second year with very promising results. The guidelines that was agreed upon was a simple minimum inside spread of 15"-16" or eartip to eartip, with no point restrictions which should ensure an age of at least 2 1/2 years old. These quidelines do not apply to youth hunters. With an increased sightings of 2 1/2 year olds next year should be exciting.
As stated on this site as QDM'rs being elitest and shoving there beliefs down your throat I would hope that these cases are rare. Objectives are not always made clear setting in front of a monitor.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

QDMAMAN said:


> Michihunter said:
> 
> 
> > Forget trophies, just give me a deer!! Who cares whether or not a person shoots a spikehorn. If that's what they want let them shoot it.
> ...


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

Den, if you are sincere, you can read the other threads and see why people would not want to post anything that resembles they support QDM...(See "to kill or not to kill").

Personally, I have practiced hunting habits like yourself and was interested more in QDM this year...since I found that a lot of what I started doing on my own 5 years ago paralleled the things QDM was endorsing. For $25 bucks, you can get a good book and read it and make up your own mind (I liked Charles Alsheimer's book).

I'm not a member of QDMA, I never try to force it on others, but a simple post will get you accused of everything from being "preachy, elistist, holier-than thou, hypocritical, etc." by people who know nothing about you other than you thought some of the QDM things sounded good. 

If you're interested in learning more about your habitat, deer biology, behavior, or game management, it would hurt NOTHING to simply get a good book and read it. If you disagree, you'll have some reasons and understanding to base your feelings on.

MichiHunter, I think your statement that genetics are more important than age for antler size (for the average Michigan buck) will carry this thread off course. Be prepared to defend that statement and find the biologist to quote as you have carried gasoline to the bonfire...start doing your research or edit your post now.


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Michihunter said:


> And what point is that? That as a hunter of deer, I should be able to choose what deer I hunt?
> 
> My point is that because you bought a license you feel you have a right to a deer regardless if the taking of that particular animal is best for the overall health of the herd.
> 
> ...


How many documented 4 yr. old spikes have come from the entire whitetail population in recent history? Enlighten me. More than likely if you have a more balanced B/D ratio the "old spike" would probably get his [email protected]# kicked by the "12 pointer" and breed few if any does.
When did I call a spike an inferior deer?

Alot of questions I know but I'll wait to here from you.

Big T


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

First, thanks for answering the question posed to you. Skirting the questions is not helping your credibility.

Yes, if a person abides by the governing rules that accompany the purchase of a deer license, then yes that hunter has a right to take whatever deer is legal. If that means that shooting a 100 pound doe or 200 pound spike, it doesn't matter. The fact that gam,e was legally taken is the only thing that matters. In some states it is legal to hunt using dogs. Is that right in your eyes? The answer should be YES because it is a legal means of hunting. 

As to the biological question of what determines antler growth, if you are so in tuned with that many biologists, then you already know that this is true. The chemical makeup of a deer is what predetermines what antler groth will be. Nothing can change that, but diet can enhance it. Regardless if that deer is 2 1/2 or 5 1/2. Why do you suppose the sheds of a deer are so very similar throughout the life of a deer?

As for the spikehorn getting whooped by a 12 point, how many 12 points are there compared to spikes? The B/D ratio has doe out numbering bucks by quite a bit which allows almost all bucks a chance at breeding. And to answer your question about documented 4 yr old spikes, how many 4 year old 12 points have been documented recently? You yourself are on record as stating that antler growth does not determine age. The sarcasm of the spike was obviously lost on you. But the fact is that all 4 year olds don't sport 12 points.

And excuse me if you thought the remark about "inferior" was directed at you personally. That was not my intention and I don't believe I addressed you personally. But if the shoe fits.....................


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

TSPham said:


> Michihunter, I think your statement that genetics are more important than age for antler size (for the average Michigan buck) will carry this thread off course. Be prepared to defend that statement and find the biologist to quote as you have carried gasoline to the bonfire...start doing your research or edit your post now.


For your viewing pleasureAntler Study 

Don't let the number of pages overwhelm you. The facts will be in the first section!! If you feel that I need to add more resources or "edit" my post, please feel free to demand again!!


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## Den (Dec 14, 2004)

I have book-marked it. It is a very interesting read, and certainly causes some deep thought processes in my scatter-brain. Seems to me from this study, we should be "culling" spike horns and other "yearling" bucks without brow tines if we truely want to see an improved herd and bigger bucks. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.............


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

MichiHunter, I'm simply trying to direct that debate to the appropriate thread. That study has also been linked by several other posts as has the opposite side of the story and other studies. The debate is raging on a different thread then this one. My only thing in all these studies is that it's great if you can get a wild Michigan buck into the age class to see the end result, but in Michigan, age will probably predominate in determining rack size. (for your 1.5 vs. 3.5 year old....good luck to see anything older).

The interesting recent study out of U of M at the George Preserve and DNA analysis of fetus showed that even the younger bucks sired a fair number of fawns, with a good number of twin fawns having genetically different sires. So, even then, it's not all "survival of the fittest" or breeding by the oldest.

More science and research needed of course...but that's the point of a different thread for that topic.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

TSPham said:


> MichiHunter, I'm simply trying to direct that debate to the appropriate thread. .


I didn't realize you were the ringmaster. I posed a question in regards to QDM. The question being about antler restrictions and how a spikehorn will be left out of the equation if that rule is initiated. Of course, censorship is a redeeming quality in most of the QDMers I have run across. And please, those of you who follow this principle, do not attack the messenger. I personally agree with the majority of QDM principles. But this issue is one that is not usually addressed by those that spout the greatness of QDM.


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## hartman886 (Aug 29, 2004)

was I dreaming ? I read and responded to a post about the new QDM websight. Now I don't see it any more. It followed along the same lines as this one. However the def or explantion of QDM and many questions here were ansewerd quite well. I hope those interested in this thread also were able to read that one. Any explantion where it went? Or am I just blind. Chris


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

I'm usually just a sideline observer Hartmann, but it's been a tendency of the moderators here to delete threads when they become too heated in their eyes. It is my guess that that is what happened.


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## TSPham (Nov 4, 2004)

Sorry MichiHunter, I see what you're trying to ask on this thread regarding the spike opinion from a QDM perspective. I'm not a QDM expert nor ringleader nor censor. 

What I believe (no science, no detailed studies...this is BELIEF) is that you can't judge a spike in Michigan. I would like to see the end results of the Texas Kroll study when it is complete, since it's interesting the trends that it shows in weather and antler size for that year-class deer (drought=larger percentage of spikes). This is in same locales and thus same genetics in wild whitetail. 

The analogy I've read from the QDM books that I like is comparing antler size to humans....compare a 12 yr. old to a 16 yr. old vs. 16 to 20 yr. old vs. 20-24 year yr. old athlete. How can you judge what the potential is until they've had a chance to physically mature. Yes, the outstanding genetics can be seen early on, but the FULL genetic potential isn't visible until mature. A spike 1.3 year old cannot be compared to a 6 point 1.5 year old as easily as a 3.3 year old to a 3.5 year old. There is not enough science yet to convince me that spike will be only a 6 point at 3.3 years.

John Ozoga has an article in this month's Michigan Out-of-Doors regarding puny antlers and antler growth patterns done on UP deer...his M-9 buck had dandy antlers and was only a "glorified" spike (tiny fork) it's first year...4 points to a side it's next year.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

I saw that article and in my opinion (and after reading the study I posted in the link) that may be the exception instead of the rule. If you get a chance and you want some interesting reading on the subject, check out that link (Antler Study). I think it's a lot more extensive due to the length of the study itself.


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## Bob S (Mar 8, 2000)

hartman886 said:


> was I dreaming ? I read and responded to a post about the new QDM websight. Now I don't see it any more.


LINK, still here. Just dropping down the page fast.


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## Whit1 (Apr 27, 2001)

As Bob mentioned above, Hartman's post is still in the thread about the new QDM website. Moderators do delete posts from time to time when the "conversation" gets too personel. Yes, it is our call and members sometimes disagree, feeling they are being treated unfairly. In this case, no post was deleted, it's still there.

For the most part, when a post is deleted or edited a PM is sent to the author explaining why the action was taken. Now and then, due to time constraints and a healthy dose of CRS (at least on my part), a PM is not sent out. Take now for instance. I just got up to do some bathroom stuff and came in here to see what's shakin' in this forum. To my surprise I found a new thread, this one, that is four pages long. I've been reading through it for about 30 min. to see if there is any need for "weeding out" any posts/comments. There hasn't been...............THANKS!!

One question that was asked by someone up there.......I forget the member's name..sorry!.......that I didn't see answered, unless it was done so in one of the very long posts, concerned how the buck to doe ratio affects the health of the herd. In other words, why is a 1:1 or 1:2 buck to doe ratio make for a healthier herd than say a 1:3 or 1:5 or 1:10 buck to doe ratio? In other words, what does the buck to doe ratio have to do with herd health.

It's pushing 5:30AM and I'm going back to bed.


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## johnhunter (Jun 17, 2000)

Den said:


> I have heard from a few different QDMA people the "theories" and such that make "QDM". I heartily disagreed with the vast majority of what they said, and what the ywere practicing. Could someone please explain the entire philosophy of QDM? Please, don't just say "to see bigger and better bucks", because that is just pure BS. I see bucks aplenty, and not a one of them were not "quality". Seriously...I am not just trying to start an argument. More and more of my fellow hunters are looking at and joining QDM, and I want to understand what the whole thing is about. Thanks in advance....



NOTE TO MSF MEMBERS: This thread was begun with a classically disingenuous "bait" post. Just read and analyze "Den's" posts above and throughout this thread. It is pretty plain that he really has no interest in learning about Quality Deer Management, and has only shown up (quite recently, I see; nothing in his profile, not even a bogus location such as the "metro detroit" moniker given by another imposter) to, in effect, start an argument, contrary to his words.

I would suggest that such posts be ignored.


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## NATTY BUMPO (May 12, 2001)

Good Catch, FL.

Great minds run in the same ..........

There are a couple of others (recent arrivals as well) of similar stripes I could name .... :sad: But Hey, its New Years Eve and I'll just wish Everybody a Happy (and Safe) New Year.


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

farmlegend said:


> NOTE TO MSF MEMBERS: This thread was begun with a classically disingenuous "bait" post. Just read and analyze "Den's" posts above and throughout this thread. It is pretty plain that he really has no interest in learning about Quality Deer Management, and has only shown up (quite recently, I see; nothing in his profile, not even a bogus location such as the "metro detroit" moniker given by another imposter) to, in effect, start an argument, contrary to his words.
> 
> I would suggest that such posts be ignored.



Why is it that every time someone disagrees with someones post they are labeled as a troll? What a shame. I remember why I don't come here as often anymore. Ignorance is bliss as they say!!


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## QDMAMAN (Dec 8, 2004)

Michihunter,

I don't want to get in a pissing match here so let me address a couple of things as best I can.

First, there are alot of things that a licensed hunter/fisherman can do legally that are not in the best interest of the species persued. Example: If 100 fisherman fished an 80 acre lake every day of the season and kept their legal limit of bluegills every day how long before the fishing in that lake for bluegills would suffer? Or if I buy my legal limit of antlerless tags every day as soon as they go on sale for my DMU and then chose to fill every one of them legally, including button bucks, within a 2 mile radius of my home how long before I wouldn't be seeing any deer. My point is not wether or not the action is legal it is wether or not is a smart/ethical practice. If there aren't many deer in my area then shooting does wouldn't be a good idea if I want to see more deer or if there aren't many mature bucks (2 1/2+),* regardless of antler points*, then the shooting of a 18 mo. spike or 8 pt. wouldn't advance my goal of seeing more mature bucks.

Second, The issue of antler size as it compares to age. Every study that I have ever read shows that as a buck gets older his antlers incease in mass, not neccesarily points, although that is common up until around age 3. You are correct when you say that nutrition and genes are an important factor but it will be impossible to determine which bucks breed which does in a free ranging herd. Therefore the more bucks in a herd (as a percentage) the more genetic diversity is available and mother nature will be the one to decide what determines a dominant buck, as she always has. With closer B/D ratios the strongest will win the battle for breeding rights even if the strongest is a 6 pt.
In trophy managed areas, with B/D ratios of 3-1 or greater, mature (4-5 yr. old 8 pts.) are culled from the herd so they don't propigate more 8 pts. and 10 and 12 pt. 2-3 yr. old bucks are spared. In alot of these situations all of these bucks very well could have been spikes as yearlings. But we aren't talking trophy mngmnt, we're talking QDM. In my particular situation I promote antler spread because it advances a greater percentage (75%+) to the next age classification, vs. -50% if we went by a 4 pt. to a side rule, this allows the harvest of older age class 6 pts., which we have a few of but we have also got a few 9 and 10 pt. yearlings that were protected. This is why ARs as they are now aren't preferred by alot of QDMers.
I do believe however that ARs in the U.P.the way they are will advance a large percentage (75%+) to the next age class and yes I hunt the U.P.
This is an example of a "blanket policy" in Michigan not being in the best interest of the herd. IMO.
I hope this clarifies your questions to me regarding antlers, gentics, B/D ratios, etc.

Concerning dogs, I have friends that hunt in Mississippi where the use of dogs is common and widely excepted. Because of the thicker than usual under growth in alot of areas dog hunting is an effective method of harvesting deer. My reservations with this practice are that most of the deer that are shot in front of dogs are hard to ID as to what they are because they are on the run. They are in agreement and are migrating away from from this method and finding foodplots a prefered alternitive for luring the deer into their sites.

FYI: Some of the things that I do other than passing 18 mo. bucks and agressively harvesting does, when appropriate, to improve the life and health of my deer are:
1. Foodplots with a variety of year round forage not just kill plots. I also plant plots on neighbors properties where I hunt and assist others in planting plots on their properties. 
2. Sanctuaries, which are probably the most misunderstood part of holding mature bucks on a given propery. I own just 19 acres and 8+ of it is a sanctuary. We harvested 2 - 3 1/2 yr. old bucks last year on this property, as well as 5 does.
3. Mineral suppliments that the deer have access to year round. Silenium is part of this mix because Mich. is silenium poor and lactating does need silenium. Calcium and phospherus are also important because they are the main ingredients in antler production and skeletal growth in all young deer.
4. Fertilization of native vegetation as well as maintaining the few apple trees on my property.
None of these things I did before becoming familiar with QDM and the QDMA. It has definitely been a God send.

I know that this is probably more info than you were expecting but at least you have a better understanding of me and the work that I am doing to improve the herd and the hunting in my neighborhood.
I also hope that this post is more in line with the original thread.

I have to keep reminding myself that these discussions weren't even taking place 7 or 8 years ago. Boy we've come a long way.

Happy New Year! 

Yours in stewardship, Big T


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## Michihunter (Jan 8, 2003)

Thanks QDMA for your response. You have done what a good many people shoould be doing and the fact that you are using antler spread instead of number of points as a measure is a great idea. My problem is mainly with Antler Restrictions as they are fought for. The study I am using supports that idea in not so many words. Some people feel that antler points are the single most telling way of determining the health of a herd. That in my opinion is false. You have to agree that a lot of QDMres are nothing more than Trophy Management people in sheeps clothing. I want a healthy herd as well. But Antler Restrictions is NOT the answer. I believ you have come up with a viable solution for deer with a spread, but what is the answer for spikes? The majority of hunters in this state cannot tell the age of a deer just from seeing them. How are they to determine if a spike is 1.5 or 3.5 yrs of age? If antler restrictions are implemented, all that is moot. 

And thank you for the mature response. Others on here are quick to label someone as a troll when their philosophies are questioned (which I don't believe I did anyway). You personally will further your cause due to the undefensive nature of your posts. You obviously have knowledge and a firm grasp on what you try to explain. Keep up the great work.


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